# Is 8 speeds in back all we need?



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

I was thinking of converting to a 3x10 (or 2x10) speed; from a 3x7 or 3x8 speed (two different bikes). It would be around $250 for the conversion for 27.5" wheels (conversion would be wheels, shifters, rear derailleur, cassette) but it's harder to find a 26" rear wheel or wheelset for around $150 like you can for 27.5" or 29". If you know of any decent 26" wheelset or rear wheel that's 8-10 cassette-based without costing as much as the whole $270 bike please let me know. Sealed bearing and of course QR would be a big plus. The main problem is that a lot of 8-10 speed-based rear wheels STILL have no 6-bolt disk brake mount on the other side (you have to use rim brakes). I just don't understand why they would not put that disk base and 6 screw holes on. For 5-6-7 speed freewheel-based wheels yes, cheap wheel = cheap rim brake ready, for 8-10 speeds, it doesn't make sense. 

For the 3x7 speed with a freewheel maybe I'll just keep it as is, until if and when the rear axles break and then decide to trash the bike or not. I have an 11-32t freewheel now and pretty happy with it as is. But on the other 3x8 bike, if you already have an 8-speed cassette is there really any reason to 'upgrade' to 10-speed? Because I just found this online: 

Sunrace 8-speed 11-40T wide ratio MTB cassette freewheel CSM680 with rear derailleur extender by JGbike (Black) $33. Combine this is Shimano RD-M410 Alivio SGS Rear Derailleur (7/8-Speed, Long Cage, Black) $43. I would go from 11-30t to 11-40t for a paltry $76, removal tool is around $7.

10 speeds can go up to 42t from what I've read. (11-46t I think is only for 1x11). So what's the point of getting 10 speeds in back when an 8-speed can do 11-40t? Those extra 2 teeth on the first cog are certainly not enough to make the difference in buying. And beyond 40t, it gets to the point where you could simply get off the bike and walk up the hill at 2.5 mph anyway. I've seen many other dudes struggle up a steep hill no matter what gearing they have. Like they will be embarrassed in front of their buddies if they have to get off the bike. No shame in it, just get off the bike and walk up the steep part. Let the 11-40t do it all on the rest of the trail.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

1. front derailleurs suck. 
2. I live in colorado. Most rides are 2000+ feet of climbing. I use the 50t on my eagle setup regularly, it's much better then walking. 
3. Bigger granny ring on the cassette allows you to run a bigger chain ring. With eagle I happily run a 34t in front.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

It sounds like you are looking for ways to spend money that aren't really going to do much for you.

Are you wanting to go to a 1x8 setup with that wide-range freewheel? You're going to have large jumps between gears.

Are you wanting to do a 3x8 with that wide-range freewheel? Do you really need a lower gear than your lowest gear in your current 3x8 setup? Will you even be able to balance at that speed? Are you pulling stumps with your bike?

Replacing wheels + drivetrain is getting to be an expensive upgrade. Just get a new bike at that point...



... if your axle breaks, spend $5 on a new axle and keep going.


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

richj8990 said:


> I was thinking of converting to a 3x10 (or 2x10) speed; from a 3x7 or 3x8 speed (two different bikes). It would be around $250 for the conversion for 27.5" wheels (conversion would be wheels, shifters, rear derailleur, cassette) but it's harder to find a 26" rear wheel or wheelset for around $150 like you can for 27.5" or 29". If you know of any decent 26" wheelset or rear wheel that's 8-10 cassette-based without costing as much as the whole $270 bike please let me know. Sealed bearing and of course QR would be a big plus. The main problem is that a lot of 8-10 speed-based rear wheels STILL have no 6-bolt disk brake mount on the other side (you have to use rim brakes). I just don't understand why they would not put that disk base and 6 screw holes on. For 5-6-7 speed freewheel-based wheels yes, cheap wheel = cheap rim brake ready, for 8-10 speeds, it doesn't make sense.
> 
> For the 3x7 speed with a freewheel maybe I'll just keep it as is, until if and when the rear axles break and then decide to trash the bike or not. I have an 11-32t freewheel now and pretty happy with it as is. But on the other 3x8 bike, if you already have an 8-speed cassette is there really any reason to 'upgrade' to 10-speed? Because I just found this online:
> 
> ...


Street doctor covered the first part: Front derailers are 1 more thing to break.

The second part of gear/teeth ratio. You don't gain anything by adding more rings in front and removing them in back. The number of gears you'd actually use remains about the same.

The third part is ruining your big ring. I stopped riding 3x anything 15 years ago. For the most part, your big ring is a really expensive, frail single-use bash guard. Bend it and you're probably walking out. My old bike is a 2x9 with a bash guard. My new bike is a 1x12 and I'll never go back.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Options are very limited with 8 speed components, no clutch derailleur available, performance will be sub-par compared to higher end 10-12 speed components. Not saying that 8 speed isn't workable but just pointing out some differences.

Gearing is very subjective, a 40t might not work for everyone and it doesn't mean they're slow.

You might consider adding a chain to your 8 speed conversion, if yours has more than a few hundred miles on it it's best to start with a fresh chain when installing a new cassette.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Looks like this is the item you are referring to on Amazon?

They don't know the difference between a cassette and a freewheel. [sigh]


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

A few things:

Wheels in the price range you're looking at are basically meant to be OEM replacements for cheap bikes. Simply enough. Not so much out there in that realm that's going to need disc brakes. Better quality stuff can be had, but you're looking at likely having something built. Plenty of 135mm QR compatible hubs out there. Only real limitation is selection of 26er rims. That's what's really less available. You can't "just" throw 27.5" wheels into a frame built around 26" wheels. You're going to run into tire clearance issues due to the increased wheel diameter.

Now, you ask about why more cogs. That's a different topic. Basically, we're talking spacing between each cog. The number of cogs doesn't really matter in and of itself. What matters is that the more closely spaced those cogs are, the better the shifting will be. I'm going to guess that that 8spd 11-40 cassette will have some pretty large, notable jumps between those larger cogs. You might not think it matters much, but it does. Everybody has an optimum cadence that they operate at. Closer spacing between cogs lets you fine tune gearing so that you can make headway at your optimal cadence. Large gaps force you into a couple of different scenarios. Scenario 1: To maintain speed, you have to push a harder gear at a lower than optimal cadence. Scenario 2: To maintain speed, you have to push an easier gear at a higher than optimal cadence. Scenario 3: To maintain optimal cadence, you either have to ride slower than you want or to push harder than you want (or might be able - which will force you off the bike).

As for why big cogs, it's not what you're saying. The whole point of the wide range cassette is to reduce the number of chainrings. Often down to 1. That clears up handlebar clutter. No front shifter means that position is open for things like dropper post controls, without making the handlebar too cluttered/complicated. I have seen bikes with two shifters, a dropper post lever, and handlebar controls for both front and rear suspension. That's an absolute mess. And cutting out the shifter reduces that to a degree. So, what winds up happening is that the low gear on a 1x bike with a wide range cassette winds up being around the same as what you have on a 2x or 3x drivetrain. If the range of the cassette is wide enough (say, SRAM Eagle or E13 TRS+), your 1x drivetrain can have the same range as a 2x or 3x drivetrain. So the objective is that once you pick your cassette range, you choose your chainring size to provide you the gearing that you want. So if you're a strong climber, then you can set up with a pretty tall low gear for speed. You can choose to gear your bike lower, too, if you prefer to spin a higher cadence while climbing. Or if you often ride loaded (touring/bikepacking). Or if you have big, long mountain climbs that will drain you.

Further, for many people, cleaning a tough climb is a personal challenge. Sure, stuff always gets more competitive when you're riding with others. But regardless, pushing up a tough climb and cleaning it gives quite a sense of accomplishment. What do you care what gearing they used to get there, or how fast they did it? The harder I push to ride up a climb today, the better I'll be able to ride up it next time.

Honestly, it looks like your issues with choosing parts are more budgetary than anything. For that reason, I'd recommend keeping with equivalent stuff. Replace what needs to be replaced, but don't spend a bunch of cash on upgrading, because it'll be too easy to spend more than the whole bike is worth.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

I also found this: http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-s...railleur-8-speed-11-40t-cassette-1039658.html

I may not even need to replace the standard 8-speed derailleur. One thing I'm confused on is that the product says cage can go to 43t but actual cogs can only go up to 34t. They have a road link adapter for larger cogs included in the Sunrace cassette package. This is all a bit above my mechanical level so I'll have the LBS do it right for around $30.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

phlegm said:


> Looks like this is the item you are referring to on Amazon?
> 
> They don't know the difference between a cassette and a freewheel. [sigh]


It's a cassette not a freewheel. Remember the company is from Taiwan and their English isn't perfect. They put freewheel in there because they probably copied/pasted from some other product. I see that all the time. They say 24-speed bike, and later down the description you find out it's 3x7 = 21 speed bike. It's just a language barrier and sloppiness, it doesn't mean the product is bad. Amazon.com is great but you have to double-check all descriptions, often outside of that website.


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

richj8990 said:


> I also found this: http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-s...railleur-8-speed-11-40t-cassette-1039658.html
> 
> I may not even need to replace the standard 8-speed derailleur. One thing I'm confused on is that the product says cage can go to 43t but actual cogs can only go up to 34t. They have a road link adapter for larger cogs included in the Sunrace cassette package. This is all a bit above my mechanical level so I'll have the LBS do it right for around $30.


Do you use your big ring? The cheapest way to convert would be to remove the big ring, replace it with a bash guard and be done with it.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

phantoj said:


> It sounds like you are looking for ways to spend money that aren't really going to do much for you.
> 
> Are you wanting to go to a 1x8 setup with that wide-range freewheel? You're going to have large jumps between gears.
> 
> ...


It's an $33 cassette upgrade to 11-40t, no wheel replacement. The other bike is 3x7 freewheel and I should not have even mentioned it because it confused 1/2 the people reading. I'm going from 3x8 to 3x8, same wheels, same derailleurs, just different cassette.

But good point about balancing over 30t with 3 chainrings in the front. We'll see if it can happen. No plan to go 1x8. Remember this is a bicycle shaped object, not a real mountain bike.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I would love a modern 10 speed setup... but with only 8 gears. The 10 speed stuff really is better, but not because it has specifically 10 cogs on it, it just functionally works better.

Big jumps are awesome on a mountain bike. I hate paddling through 10 or 11 gears. It feels like I really use about 3 gears on any ride. 4 if im feeling frisky... but too bad! It is what it is, its worth going 10 speed.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

If you have cassette with 11-32 on it now and 26" wheel basic bike there are so many more things to change and upgrade beyond drivetrain. I "upgraded" my 29er from 3x9 to 1x11. The improvement was slight. But the change from a aluminium 26" bike with XT 3x9 to carbon 29er with XTR/XO 3x9 was massive. It all came from the wheels and the frame. Drive train is "nice to have" upgrade not a real one. If I were you I would save up money to do a proper upgrade and just get a new bike. 29er probalby with modern higher end drive train. Could be solid 2x10 or a 1x. Once there you can more easily make adjustments. There nothing you can do to a cheap entry level bike to upgrade it close a good mid range bike. Nothing wrong with cheap entry level stuff to start with, but it false economy to put money into upgrades. 

The difference between most Mid level bike and top end high level bike is often just a few grams in frame weight and a whole lot of parts that are direct upgrades. 

Most entry level bikes have need so many upgrades it not worth it as you often can just upgrade certain parts. Typically entire systems need to go.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Ken in KC said:


> Do you use your big ring? The cheapest way to convert would be to remove the big ring, replace it with a bash guard and be done with it.


I think ill do that and make it a 2x8. I will not get into my financial situation but if u knew u would understand.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Honestly, on this set up, I'd only do what is necessary to fix something that is broken.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> I think ill do that and make it a 2x8. I will not get into my financial situation but if u knew u would understand.


It is even cheaper to just not use the big ring and sacrifice the big ring AS a bash guard. It will cost you nothing. For years on my 3x systems my big ring had teeth ground off from dragging it over things. It protected the other chainrings and still worked as a big ring since there were so many teeth I still had great chain engagement. Now middle rings... I had tendency to just wear those out and have chain slip on high load application.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

JoePAz said:


> It is even cheaper to just not use the big ring and sacrifice the big ring AS a bash guard. It will cost you nothing. For years on my 3x systems my big ring had teeth ground off from dragging it over things.


This is basically what I did. On some trail systems, it would even be a de facto 1x9 drivetrain because I'd do the whole ride in the middle ring.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

After looking at the gear inch numbers I think I'll play it conservative and just go up to 11-34t on an 8-speed cassette and keep the 3 front chainrings. Right now on the 26" the granny gear is 18 inches (22/32 x 26) and on the 27.5 it's 20 inches (22/30 x 27.5). Going up conservatively to 34t on the 27.5" with the original 22t front chainring would give the same 18 gear inches as the 26" right now. 18 gear inches is good enough, anything more than that and the bike may start falling over. So the granny gear(s) are basically wasted. If I go up to 11-40t and keep the smallest chainring the gear inches go all the way down to 15 (bike will probably fall over). 1x8 is not good for 6-14 mile routes that are a mix of fast level surface and relatively steep inclines. 2x8 would need new chainrings up front due to the issues above, and like some have said maybe that's money better saved for a nicer bike anyway.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Being that this is beginners corner, I'd like to raise the concept of also learning not to touch your chainrings on anything. Learn to hop, learn to "punch". During the days of 3x, the only ring that I didn't use was the granny. I didn't use the big ring much, really the only time was when getting the tires humming up on the ride to the trails along the bike path or the final sprint of an XC race. But the teeth were ready for use if I decided to shift up there.

But the idea of 'bashing' my ring or a bashguard on anything was not something that I wanted to ever do. I look at bashguards and that technique like having skid plates on my offroad truck. But the difference is, I can't make the truck bunnyhop. I can on my bike.

**Edit...

Here's the punch technique by Jeff Lenosky. I learned this before I learned to just straight up clear rocks and logs. It definitely helped in moving into bunnyhopping.

How-to: Trials ace Jeff Lenosky shows you how to 'punch' trail obstacles - Mtbr.com


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

I'm going to apologize in advance for probably changing my mind 10 times on what to do. I figure if I'm going to take one chainring off I may as well take the plunge and take 2 off and have a single ring up front. There is a 30t narrow-wide chainring out there that says 8-11 speed compatible, but I kind of like the low end of 28t better. That 28t one says 9-12 speed compatible but I'm sure it's OK with 8 speeds too correct? RaceFace CINCH Direct Mount Steel Narrow Wide Chainring, 28t Black. If not I'll settle for the 30t.

With 11-40t and this front chainring on a 27.5 the lowest gear has 19.25 inches (great), and the high is 70 inches. Comparing this to my older 14-28t setup on the 7-speed, the highest gear was 78 inches so I think I will survive the blunted high end of the gearing. I don't need to go 20 mph. As far as big jumps between gears, it is some big jumps, 40-34-28-22, and then a more normal 18-15-13-11.

I found a pretty cool chart of rear derailleur-cassette compatibility:








However...it says the Altus is compatible but supposedly it's not; both the Acera and Altus have a max chain (total) capacity of 43 and I need at least 49 (or 57 if you calculate 29 back + 28t single up front). Hoping the RD adapter will work. BTW they say on Amazon the Altus is a long cage but I don't think it is if it's only a 43 capacity correct? A lot of contradicting info. on the net.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

You can use a 9 speed chain on the 8 spd cassette. 9 spd is the minimum you need to have chain retention on the NW rings.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> However...it says the Altus is compatible but supposedly it's not; both the Acera and Altus have a max chain (total) capacity of 43 and I need at least 49 (or 57 if you calculate 29 back + 28t single up front). Hoping the RD adapter will work. BTW they say on Amazon the Altus is a long cage but I don't think it is if it's only a 43 capacity correct? A lot of contradicting info. on the net.


You don't count the front chainring teeth if there is only one chainring, you only add the difference between the smallest and largest if you have multiple front chainrings.

Your total is 29t, (40-11) but that still doesn't mean the Altus derailleur will shift Ideally with the 40t because it was designed for a max of 36t (I think).


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Can I ask why you're wanting do do this? If you want more range, leave the chainrings as they are, throw on an 11-36 cassette and be done with it. Or if 1x is a must (it isn't) run a 30t to an 11-36, and call it done. 

Then RIDE. 

Might not be a popular idea, but I honestly don't see the point of dropping rings to set up a bike 1× with an Altus or Acera RD. You're going to spend money and time on low end upgrades, and I think the 'placebo effect' is going to wear off and leave you disillusioned.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

jochribs said:


> Can I ask why you're wanting do do this? If you want more range, leave the chainrings as they are, throw on an 11-36 cassette and be done with it. Or if 1x is a must (it isn't) run a 30t to an 11-36, and call it done.
> 
> Then RIDE.
> 
> Might not be a popular idea, but I honestly don't see the point of dropping rings to set up a bike 1× with an Altus or Acera RD. You're going to spend money and time on low end upgrades, and I think the 'placebo effect' is going to wear off and leave you disillusioned.


I agree with this. Don't go 1x just to be trendy, you may end up with a poorly shifting bike without any more range.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Having ridden both 8 and 10-speed extensively, and 9 as well, I would say yes, 8-speed is fine. 

Right now I have two 10-speed bikes and two 8-speed ones. My full-sus is 2x10 and I would say that the majority of the time I'm shifting I shift two or more gears at a time. A 2-8 would be totally fine as long as it had the same overall range. 

For me the big advantage of 2x at the front over 3x is being able to fit a bash-guard in place of the big ring. Off road you really don't need three rings up front and a bash takes the stress out of hitting large obstacles which could damage your big ring. I've seen a big ring bent beyond help off a rock. 

So if you ride fast, flowy trails with not big rocks to hit, 3x8 is fine. If you tackle nastier stuff that might bite your big ring then 2x8.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Yes, mostly good advice to leave the front alone. BTW I don't see an 11-36t 8-speed cassette out there, that's why I wrote to be conservative with 11-34t (max teeth for 7/8-speed derallleurs w/o an adapter) instead of going bonkers with 11-40t 8-speed and then having the granny gear be unusable at 15 gear inches with a 22t lowest front chainring. It's better to just leave it alone besides a slightly wider cassette (11-30t to 11-34t modest upgrade) and then invest in a better front fork. I have the ubiquitous Suntour XCT 100mm and while it does seem to be OK on the trail it really does do the pogo stick thing on pavement like sidewalks. I will however not open a major can of worms and discuss forks, because then I know I will get a different opinion from every single reply (the only unified opinion is that XCT sucks, yes I know lol). Every other opinion is guaranteed to go off in a different direction like it does in the suspension forum. I don't think there is a more opinionated discussion than MTB forks is there?


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

as long as you can overlook the fact that it was designed form the ground up for *gasp* ebikes, sram has a wide range 1x8 group called ex1. i highly recommend it. the cassette is 11-48 and non-xd compatible, all cogs steel, super reliable, the shifting is as good as my gx1 eagle.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

It's beautiful, but you triggered me by mentioning e-bikes.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

syl3 said:


> as long as you can overlook the fact that it was designed form the ground up for *gasp* ebikes, sram has a wide range 1x8 group called ex1. i highly recommend it. the cassette is 11-48 and non-xd compatible, all cogs steel, super reliable, the shifting is as good as my gx1 eagle.
> 
> View attachment 1160301
> 
> ...


Wow that's awesome...on paper. It's also over $300 just for the cassette. I'm glad to know about this, but for $300 maybe it's best to upgrade one of my crappy coil forks.

If you don't mind me copy/pasting a review of the cassette above: 2.0 out of 5 stars
Verified Purchase
Center few sprockets warped almost immediately. Probably wouldn't have happened if I we're more gentle with my shifts. But for the cost and the weight, I shouldn't have to be gentle. Between this and my derailer breaking, I have some very costly paper weights. 

I don't know if he was on an e-bike or not, that may have contributed to the warping if there is a heavy load on the chain, was this for a rear-drive hub motor or something? Or mid-drive chain-driven? I have to say it's a really cool cassette but...uh...

Let me do the math: goal is 18 gear inches for granny, let's say 26" wheel this time, I'm coming up with 34t for the front chainring which is great because I already have that, if it can work without a narrow-wide chainring. 34/48 x 26 = 18.41 gear inches. Again great on paper, in reality I just don't know. When I was having derailleur problems on past bikes I kept telling myself "Just give me 8 good, well-spaced gears that shift right every time and I'll be happy". Now I have that option but hesitant to commit for now.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> Let me do the math:


For the price of one of those cassettes you could get a new Shimano 11-speed shifter, derailleur, and chain and have enough money left over for 3 cassettes.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

I have an old StumpJumper with 22-32-44 x 11-28 drivetrain. The low-low = 20.4 gear-inches. It is not much of a stretch to think there is a 13-36 (11-32?) cassette or something that would drop the entire range to get close to 18 gear-inches.

Personally, I still run 3 x 9 on my 29er. I wish it was 3 x 8. And yes, some of the teeth on the big ring have been ground off.

My fatbike was 2 x 10, but I moved 2 cogs behind the lowest cog, so it's 2 x 8. I need to invest in 2 slightly larger cogs to help narrow the large shift gaps where the other cogs were removed, but it doesn't really bother me. And my [so-called "cheap"] SRAM X7 rear drlr doesn't even blink when shifting on this cassette, even under very heavy pressure.

-F


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