# Lets get over the Minivan Stigma...



## Weinerts (Feb 3, 2011)

I have some friends who bag on my van - mom car - soccer shuttle - giant vagina - but they fail to see a few things past the stigma - 

1) Can they bring 6 people to the trail head (or the beach for a cruiser ride) with plenty of room for extra gear - and nobody pressed up against each other. ( I have space for 8 if I get wider load bars). 

2) Can they get over 25 mpg driving 80? (close to 30 mpg driving 60!) 

3) Do they have enough cup holders for everybody to have 2 drinks! 

Long live the Minivan!!

Oh the 4 bike hitch rack is a Thule T2 - Thule criterium on the roof with the front block removed so I strap the Pugsley tire on. The roof racks come off for the Kayak.


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## WA-CO (Nov 23, 2013)

Weinerts said:


> Long live the Minivan!!


I would say the EXACT same thing, if I had a mini van. Sorry only one cool mini, van.


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

Mommy van. "The Emasculator". " The **** Blocker"

I would rather walk.


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## Rock (Jan 13, 2004)

Don't worry about your friends. They're jealous. Yours is the car you guys usually take on rides right? Smooth, quiet and comfortable. Own it proudly.



AllMountin' said:


> Mommy van. "The Emasculator". " The **** Blocker"
> 
> I would rather walk.


When I was growing up vans were known as "F**k Trucks", so there's that.


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## canker (Jul 26, 2007)

All the soccer moms drive SUVs not minivans. The only people that drive minivans are the smart that just want something practicle. I had an 89 dodge caravan turbo for 12 years that I paid $800 for . It was the best beater I've ever owned. It was easy for my dogs to get in and out of, no jumping, and I could easily haul 4 bikes and 4 people inside it plus you could fit an amazing amount of junk in it when you needed to haul things. All my friends with soccer mobiles, SUVs, borrowed my van whenever they needed to move anything of decent size. Now I drive the second coolest kind of vehicle a station wagon. It gets better mileage and can still haul a decent amount about the same as an average SUV but I still miss that minivan at times.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Having plenty of experience with powerful sports cars, open tops and minivans, I can say for sure there's been more romance with the minivan than any car I've had. With the Mustang GT the cops waved at my wife and followed me. With the European sports 'n luxury ride the cops and crooks took interest. It's nice to have the anonymity and utility with our minivan.

In addition to all the cabin trips, I just remembered the time the minivan allowed the family of 5 and new dishwasher to go home together at the same time. There comes a time in many lives when your wife without a dishwasher for less than 24 hours guarantees much more love and happiness than a hot date. Travel to and from cabin with wife, kids, dog and bikes supply richness that's hard to describe.

My wife was "not over my dead body" regarding minivans and drove nice domestic or European cars at a time when my riding pals and I discovered renting a minivan meant ultimate bike road trip vehicle. Now she won't drive anything but minivan and wisely chooses any premium in where she lives over what she drives.


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## ltspd1 (Nov 25, 2007)

Went to Moab once in a friend's van. Five guys, plenty of room, plush, great stereo. For a trip like that it was the perfect vehicle.


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## KevinGT (Dec 25, 2012)

The two greatest marketing campaigns in the history of the automotive world are the US Pickup Truck and the US SUV.

Companies have brilliantly convinced American males that driving a pickup makes them more of a man...even if they spend 99% of their time alone in traffic heading to their job as assistant manager at Best Buy. 13 miles per gallon and a 200 year old suspension system but it's MANLY the one day a year when they need a sheet of drywall from Home Depot. "Good thing I bought this truck, honey!" LOL.

The SUV marketing job came on the coattails of the pickup. Convincing these same men that their wives need a 17 foot long, 7000 lbs. 4wd monster truck for $60,000 in order to take two kids to soccer practice is freakin' genius. 

I would bet 60% of all pickup trucks are driven by people better suited to a sedan and 70% of all SUVs should have been minivans.

Pure marketing genius. Almost as good as the 29er wheel but certainly on an exponentially different scale.


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## Weinerts (Feb 3, 2011)

But where is the stigma from? Why do people hate them?


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## WA-CO (Nov 23, 2013)

Rock said:


> When I was growing up vans were known as "F**k Trucks", so there's that.










Ah, the 70's.


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

sorry everybody.... gunna have to deny you that one. it may be practical for many things, and that may work out for you in many ways, but it sure ain't awesome.

but.... its not really because its a minivan.... its because its a crapbox vehicle in every other way as well. engine, suspension, etc, they just look like crap, drive like crap, no fun at all and declare to the world that you have no taste or passion in vehicles.

if your cool with that, than cool, haul your bikes in a minivan. enjoy the ride (probably not the drive).

you CAN be awesome in a minivan. check this out, Cosworth YB engine equipped Ford Transit. now we are talking... totally customized, super fast, a bit exclusive. blue isn't really my color... but this thing is awesome, would be even sexier with some bikes!


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

KevinGT said:


> The two greatest marketing campaigns in the history of the automotive world are the US Pickup Truck and the US SUV.
> 
> Companies have brilliantly convinced American males that driving a pickup makes them more of a man...even if they spend 99% of their time alone in traffic heading to their job as assistant manager at Best Buy. 13 miles per gallon and a 200 year old suspension system but it's MANLY the one day a year when they need a sheet of drywall from Home Depot. "Good thing I bought this truck, honey!" LOL.
> 
> ...


Not sure about the wheel thing - religion and tribe escaped me there. I like them big and small.

Wanting to be super trucker probably drives the decision for many but I used to drive a Kenworth, and grew up were pickup trucks were needed tools to it left me thinking the comfort, quiet and features of a car were the goal.

At this point most SUVs seem to be CarUVs - tall fat wagons. I tried some when I got a new work vehicle. I can see why many like them but I still chose a nice wagon over them.

There's no way it can take care of the ego people have tied in their rides but renting trucks, pickups, trailers and larger vans has worked well since I gave up owning a pickup and larger SUV. That hasn't cost me more than the fuel saved by owning a minivan and wagon.


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## TiFJ (Aug 8, 2013)

"What you're saying is that you've had your children and now you're just waiting to die".
-Jeremy Clarkson on people carriers (minivans)


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

Women made minivans uncool, not men. Women didn't want to look like Moms, so they started driving SUV's. A Jeep Wrangler 4 door is the ultimate Mommy-wagon now. When was the last time you saw a woman driving one of those with the hard top removed? What a waste. For a long highway road trip with lots of gear, minivans are tough to beat. Guys who hate on minivans because they are (insert derogatory comment here) seem to also be the one's who dig Corvettes, and we all know about Corvette drivers


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

i think the guys who really rag on minivans probably drive giant diesel trucks, loaded up with bikes and doing 80mpg uphill through the rockies.


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## WA-CO (Nov 23, 2013)

euroford said:


> i think the guys who really rag on minivans probably drive giant diesel trucks, loaded up with bikes and doing 80mpg uphill through the rockies.


Tim M Hovey

IMBA CAMBr COMBA BMA
Transition Bottlerocket
Gary Fisher Rig
Blk Mrkt MOB 4x
1950 CJ3a
* 1999 F350 PSD*

Sez the guy with the 1999 F350 in his sig. Oh, did I spoil the joke?


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

KevinGT said:


> The two greatest marketing campaigns in the history of the automotive world are the US Pickup Truck and the US SUV.
> 
> Companies have brilliantly convinced American males that driving a pickup makes them more of a man...even if they spend 99% of their time alone in traffic heading to their job as assistant manager at Best Buy. 13 miles per gallon and a 200 year old suspension system but it's MANLY the one day a year when they need a sheet of drywall from Home Depot. "Good thing I bought this truck, honey!" LOL.
> 
> ...


Amen, but my wife does daily drive a mid sized SUV that I tow my race car with. Then I'm getting a minivan when I get back to the states. Out here I have a Kia diesel minivan, works great for getting to different riding areas with friends.


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## Chad_M (Jul 11, 2013)

Was in same boat - Toyota Sienna or Highlander. Went with Highlander SUV. Could tow more and has higher hitch receiver - I would have needed a 6" rise for the Sienna to get my boat unhitched in my garage. 

Also the highlander was actually shorter than the sienna, so I had more room in front of it in my tight garage for bikes : )

To each his own.


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## adam728 (Jan 25, 2006)

I know a few people driving minivans that hated minivans and would never own one. As many have said, the practicality can't be beat. And soccer mom's drive Acadias, Tahoes, and Cherokees around here now, because they are concerned about not looking like soccer mom's driving a minivan. 

My wife hates that we have a minivan. Her, the kids, the mother-in-law, the sister-in-law, and her kids (7 people) just did a 3,000 mile trip over 3 weeks. Guess what vehicle was captained despite being 12-15 years older than the SUVs owned by the above mentioned in-laws? The one with the most room, despite having the same seating as the others, our van. 

It's also hauled lumber, a Buell, been camped in, towed an enclosed trailer across country and back, etc etc. We'll likely not own another only due to perceived image, which drives me up the wall. So damn practical. A large suv like a Tahoe can match it, but the buy in is soo much higher. Dealler up the road has a Denali version marked down $14k this weekend only, now just $51,800. That is just stupid!!!!!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

This one doesn't suck:

Renault Espace F1 Concept


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I've had a couple of minivans. No thank you. I have five kids. We have a Ford Excursion. I don't care about the mileage. I do care about ground clearance, trunk capacity (I promise mine is bigger than yours), interior room, and most of all, towing capacity. I can hold all 7 people in my family, 1 big German Shepherd, 6 bikes on the roof and pull a 30 ft camp trailer. Minivans suck.


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## walangkatapat (Jun 2, 2009)

I've always looked at mini vans as a place to stay when the wife kicks you out of the house.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

And here lies the problems here in the US, people care only about money and image. Instead of functionality and practicality. Big vehicles have their place but unless u live and work where something as big as suvs and full size pickups have a purpose they are such a waste. Too worried about looking cool and compensating. If u live in back country, u get tons of snow, or work requires towing/hauling WTH is the point?

That being said would I have considered owning a minivan up till recently, hell no. I have a S10 and wife drives a colbalt coupe. Does what we need while keep costs in all forms low.

But now we just had a baby last Oct. Now 2 kids combined with constant trips 300 miles (4-6 times a year on avg) to see the wifes family a minivan has now become an option. Good on gas, functional for most things we need, and 2 kids plus bike (or bikes depending) to go spend a few days at in laws would be so much easier.

Those that make fun of men driving minivans are actually the insecure ones compensating for issues. Be smart get what u need and works for you, instead spend more money on bikes or trips to new places to ride.
Sent from my Nokia Stupid Phone using Tapatalk


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## PoisonDartFrog (Jul 8, 2010)

TiFJ said:


> "What you're saying is that you've had your children and now you're just waiting to die".
> -Jeremy Clarkson on people carriers (minivans)


Dudes with small tools always obsess over their cars and the image they portray. And Clarkson hates just about everything that is not a Euro sports car, so screw him.

SUVs are exactly the same as minivans - you are sitting in a big box with rows of seats behind you. Pick any category, and minivans are hard to beat - interior space, fuel economy, low overall cost, cheap to repair and maintain. And, they are plentiful on the used market.

Put a rack on the back, and a box on the top and transport a whole team. Then you can fold down the seats and lock your bikes inside, or camp in it, or haul cargo.

However, if you are more concerned with what others think, then an SUV is probably a better choice.


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

Always wanted a minivan.






Though, I own a '95 V8 Jeep Grand Cherokee.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

My Kia minivan is gone, will have a newer Sienna in the states when I get home next week.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

Lol Clarkson's comment is hilarious. (Huge Top Gear fan)

I want a minivan with the seats that disappear into the floor...having grown up with 2 generations of Caravans that did not do that, it is an amazing feature. 

I'd like one to sleep in on biking road trips... And to haul stuff.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

No one ever says, "Nice minivan."


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## adam728 (Jan 25, 2006)

Glide the Clyde said:


> No one ever says, "Nice minivan."


Actually, someone did when we were up in Houghton in August. I about laughed when he did a walk around of the Astro, then started asking questions about it. At one point he said "those are almost vintage now". Not something I expect from a guy in his 50's talking about a 1998 minivan.

Gal I work with is on the hunt for a vehicle with 3 row seating. Her husband is all in on a minivan for the practicality. She gets damn near angry, absolutely refuses to drive a minivan. Reason? Doesn't want an ugly soccer-mom-mobile. So all the standard soccer-mom-suvs are on her list.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

adam728 said:


> Gal I work with is on the hunt for a vehicle with 3 row seating. Her husband is all in on a minivan for the practicality. She gets damn near angry, absolutely refuses to drive a minivan. Reason? Doesn't want an ugly soccer-mom-mobile. So all the standard soccer-mom-suvs are on her list.


 my wife's thoughts are the same, I wonder how long it will take here to drive the new van if she ever does. Then of course she has the SUV, I will admit the Diesel Grand Cherokee is a much cooler car to drive.


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## adam728 (Jan 25, 2006)

terrasmak said:


> my wife's thoughts are the same, I wonder how long it will take here to drive the new van if she ever does. Then of course she has the SUV, I will admit the Diesel Grand Cherokee is a much cooler car to drive.


Diesel GC gets a pass, sort of like a diesel Toureg. Badass


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

euroford said:


> sorry everybody.... gunna have to deny you that one. it may be practical for many things, and that may work out for you in many ways, but it sure ain't awesome.
> 
> but.... its not really because its a minivan.... its because its a crapbox vehicle in every other way as well. engine, suspension, etc, they just look like crap, drive like crap, no fun at all and declare to the world that you have no taste or passion in vehicles.


I beat a Mini Cooper S to 80 and went toe-to-toe with a challenger R/T in my Sienna to 55... I'm also averaging over 20MPG. Vans are awesome. The suspension does suck however... it rides like an old Cadillac.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

FireLikeIYA said:


> I beat a Mini Cooper S to 80 and went toe-to-toe with a challenger R/T in my Sienna to 55...


And I'll bet neither of them knew they were "racing" you. Because, mini van.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

Yeah buddy!!


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## junkyardkid (Oct 2, 2014)

I had an awesome ford windstar. I was working building houses and i could keep all my tools in it without taking them out every night. (mostly just ran two seats) I slept in when i was drunk all the time, with the tools. It would cruise the mini dunes at glamis. It also got me laid a time or two. I also would race my buddy who had a v6 mustang 5 speed, it was equal as long as it was empty and no seats. I almost miss the thing now after 8 years and 4 trucks later.


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## goldenaustin (May 30, 2011)

Glide the Clyde said:


> No one ever says, "Nice minivan."


Haha, I know what you're saying, but actually I do get that a whole lot. The difference vs, some sports car, or high end luxury car/suv, is that they're referring to its functionality and practicality not how it looks. It's usually when they see the modular seating arrangement, how much cargo it can load when all the seats are removed, and how it can comfortably seat 8 full size adults with all seats in. Sure, someday a sports car or luxury car will be in our garage, but a van will most likely be next to it or right outside in the driveway.


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

From about 2 years ago til a few months ago, I had an 07 Honda Odyssey EX-L. Never thought I'd own a minivan but I'm in sales at a Subaru dealership and it was traded in one day and I was... moved to buy it. Something strange compelled me. 

I brought it home and my wife told me that I have shamed myself and my family. She repeated that many a time during our ownership. She refused to drive it. 

That being said, it was AWESOME. I always kept the third row down, used it like a pickup truck. The kids loved it. I hauled a whole deckload of wood home once, with my son in one of the second row seats, the other seat removed. I brought a dryer home in box, with the tailgate fully closed and both kids in the bckseat. I fit my entire Surly Big Dummy inside with the tailgate closed and the two kids in their seats. 

It was so great that whenever it swallowed something seemingly impossible, my 5 y.o. son would triumphantly shout "MINIVAAAAAN!" My wife would frequently benefit from its hauling capability but would never verbally acknowledge this. 

It did all this while purring like a kitten and being comfortable as hell on my commute. 

A few months ago, the parents of the owners of the LBS I go to bought a Crosstrek from me and they traded in a minty fresh '12 Mazda5, and I've always had a Mazda5 curiosity so i traded the Ody in for it. 

My wife for some reason loves the Mazda5. Go figure. I like it too, but a few times now I've gone "dammit I wish I had the Ody still" when I needed to haul something. 

The only thing, is I never enjoyed walking up to the Odyssey. Once i was inside it was a glorious spaceship of awesome, but when looking at it from the outside I was fighting the stigma that I've been conditioned to feel.

Interesting observance: I'm 34 and grew up hating minivans but I freaking love station wagons. But customers of mine a generation older than me, I find that many of them think station wagons are uncool but are fine with minivans.


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

Also: 90% of people I know with 6-7 passenger SUVs should actually drive minivans. I can't stress how big a deal it is to have that lower floor of a minivan. 

Once I got my Odyssey, 2 of my dude friends with families were like "oh, I get it now. This thing rules."


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

Silentfoe said:


> And I'll bet neither of them knew they were "racing" you. Because, mini van.


This. Not for a second would I dispute that minivans have a purpose. 
Unfortunately, their drivers are often such aggressive idiots that I steer clear.
Watching one do a 3 lane slalom in heavy traffic, with the inside tires leaving the ground is a truly scary site.
Remember it's really a box on wheels, not a car, and shares no genetics of a sports car..

For all those emasculated men out there forced to drive one, please take your anger out on your wife in the bedroom, 
not on the rest of us driving next to you in traffic.


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

I drive the soccer mom SUV that's not an SUV ('03 Ford Escape). At 3250 Lbs, it's lighter than my '95 SHO, and that thing has a stick and only two driven wheels. 

The Escape is structurally a modern car and handles/rides like one, but will also take a fairly decent beating off the fairly beaten path. It's no Jeep, but for a comfortable 4x4 it gets this man through enough of the manly adventures to be considered a man by the men around me.

With it's cute little class II hitch, I can haul more in my trailer than 9 of the 72 engine/chassis/driven wheels combinations of the 2014 F150 can haul in it's bed. A few time a year I actually move 3,000 Lbs that my trailer is rated to handle. I also use it a few times a week, but for the 95% of miles that I don't need it, I enjoy 25+mpg.

Note: I do NOT recommend moving over 2,000Lb with the Escape if you are not well versed in towing with the Escape and have other experience towing very heavy loads. I NEVER recommend towing more than 65% rated capacity and 65% tow vehicle curb weight for any passenger vehicle. I exceed my 65/65 rule only during extremely low traffic conditions, under reduced speeds, and with ample visibility. You have been warned.

Edit: I just realized a mathematical mistake. I can haul more than all BUT 9 of the 72 F150 iterations.

Added: Minivans are ok in my book, but some small SUV's are easier to drive and park (shorter/narrower), have better handling (lighter with more stout suspensions), better entry and exit angles (wheels pushed to the corners), better clearance, and tires that can take an off-road beating.

Even though we take a lot of trips, the amount of time I could use the room of a minivan is miniscule, and though minivans are larger, most don't have a larger load capacity. Anytime you load one up with two adults, two kids, and enough camping supplies for a weekend outing, you're overloading the chassis, and you've got a ton of gear to fly around should you have an accident. I only put sleeping bags and back packs in the escape, and I use ratchet straps on the tie down brackets. Heavy items go outside in the trailer or cargo tray.


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

A minivan is just a man cave on wheels...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

golden boy said:


> A minivan is just man boobs on wheels...


Fixed


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## challybert (Sep 5, 2014)

Had a mini-van for about two years. I was a sales rep and the van was a company car due to all the crap I had to lug around.

From a pure utility standpoint, it was by far my favorite vehicle. Hauling people, hauling stuff, bikes in the back, scuba diving equipment, comfortable on the highway, decent gas mileage, etc. I'd have one now but MY WIFE HATES THEM....lol. I'll just keep driving my 2001 4Runner....rather spend money on bikes.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

Well I officially bought my 3rd minivan today. This is the first one I have owned in the US. 2014 Toyota Sienna, I need a hitch for it now.


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## tylerw (Dec 7, 2009)

minivans are practical for every application


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

XJaredX said:


> Also: 90% of people I know with 6-7 passenger SUVs should actually drive minivans. I can't stress how big a deal it is to have that lower floor of a minivan.
> 
> Once I got my Odyssey, 2 of my dude friends with families were like "oh, I get it now. This thing rules."


My thoughts exactly, and I'll gladly accept the extra 10mpg that the minivan offers. Then the little mid sized SUV I have can tow 8k , pretty much anything I can afford.


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## cassa89 (Jun 30, 2014)

I guess it becomes how confident you are in yourself more than anything. I mean, let's face it, that's why 75% of those "soccer moms" are in an SUV instead of a minivan. 

If people see me driving our minivan and think to themselves "what a tool, driving a minivan like that", then more power to them. When there's room for 6, a DVD player, room for all the gear, heated leather seats, sunroof, push button doors, all while getting 30 mpg, I'll happily be a "minivan tool" any day.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

tylerw said:


> minivans are practical for every application
> View attachment 939558
> View attachment 939559
> View attachment 939560


That is like people putting lambo doors on their neon.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

cassavant89 said:


> If people see me driving our minivan and think to themselves "what a tool, driving a minivan like that", then more power to them.


Yup, who cares what other people think.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

cassavant89 said:


> all while getting 30 mpg


Prove it.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

See this...










It's pushing the edge of control, and very unsafe.* 
If you drive one do not do this, or things will go badly very fast. :eekster:

* Google - static stability factor


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## adam728 (Jan 25, 2006)

Flyin_W said:


> See this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your point? Drive any car beyond its limits and you are asking for trouble.

Around here I'd say #1 offender for aggressive driving is modified diesel pickups. Lots of idiots in SUVs when we get over to I75 that will tailgate and aggressively swerve around if stuck behind a car going 1 mph slower than them. Old beater cars are probably 3rd. I cannot even recall seeing an aggressively driven minivan.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

Unfortunately, I see minivans doing this often. If you took the time to read about static stability factor you'd learn that it applies only to vehicles with a high center of gravity i.e. not cars.


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## adam728 (Jan 25, 2006)

Flyin_W said:


> Unfortunately, I see minivans doing this often. If you took the time to read about static stability factor you'd learn that it applies only to vehicles with a high center of gravity i.e. not cars.


If you took time to read about it you'd learn its a calculatable factor for all vehicles, cars included. And you'd see that full size vans, suvs, and trucks all are catagorized as being worse than minivans by the dot.

Want to use facts that support your hatred of minivans, rather than knock it down?


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

Who's hating? (Read my opening post)You deny that minivans do not suffer from a higher static stability factor (rollover danger) than passenger cars, and that no aggressive minivan drivers exist. Okay then load up the unicorns, and go drive your Moob mobile off into the sunset.


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## adam728 (Jan 25, 2006)

I agree they have a higher center of gravity than cars. I disagree that static stability factor doesn't apply to cars. I also don't see how minivans have such a horrid static stability factor calculation when trucks and suvs are considerably worse. I don't disagree that someone can drive an minivan like a moron, I just say that in my observations there are many other catagory of drivers that do it far worse. I feel like you are using biased opinion rather than facts to make your argument.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

Agree that drivers of large pickups and SUV's tend to be the most aggressive. Yet, it is fact that few people know of or understand the principles of static stability factor, and how it directly effects their safety. I do, am lucky to be here, and will no longer drive a 4x4 pickup as a result. My point is that minivans too are subject to this little known concept.

As center of gravity increases so does rollover danger. The pic I posted shows a vehicle at the edge and lifting it's inside tires.
*facts (source dot)

"The Static Stability Factor (SSF) of a vehicle is one half the track width, t, divided by h, the height of the center of gravity above the road. The inertial force which causes a vehicle to sway on its suspension (and roll over in extreme cases) in response to cornering, rapid steering reversals or striking a tripping mechanism, like a curb, when sliding laterally may be thought of as a force acting at the center of gravity (c.g.) to pull the vehicle body laterally. A reduction in c.g. height increases the lateral inertial force necessary to cause rollover by reducing its leverage, and the advantage is represented by an increase in the computed value of SSF. A wider track width also increases the lateral force necessary to cause rollover by increasing the leverage of the vehicle's weight in resisting rollover, and that advantage also increases the computed value of SSF. The factor of two in the computation "t over 2h" makes SSF equal to the lateral acceleration in g's at which rollover begins in the most simplified rollover analysis of a vehicle represented by a rigid body without suspension movement or tire deflections. In this form, it is easy to compare to the related metrics, Tilt Table Angle and Side Pull Ratio, which are similar except for the inclusion of suspension movement and tire deflections."


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## tylerw (Dec 7, 2009)

i call it "body roll" meaning your are using that sweet mini van rig to its full and expected potential. Come on yo its a mini van wgaf....


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## adam728 (Jan 25, 2006)

Flyin_W said:


> Agree that drivers of large pickups and SUV's tend to be the most aggressive. Yet, it is fact that few people know of or understand the principles of static stability factor, and how it directly effects their safety. I do, am lucky to be here, and will no longer drive a 4x4 pickup as a result. My point is that minivans too are subject to this little known concept.


Little known? I think everyone knows that taller vehicles are more prone to roll over. It's been one of the biggest arguments against SUV's since, well, forever.

What's your back story on the 4wd truck thing? What do you drive now?

You can skew stats all sorts of ways as well. 
Fatality Facts

Note - I've survived owning 3 lifted pickups, and the worst of all, a lifted Jeep with narrow tires on a stock track width. Yes there's risk. If the increased rollover risk between my Astro and Mazda3 is enough to scare me, then the increased risk between staying at home and driving should be enough to put all my toys up for sale. Heck, I'm more likely to get hurt riding my bicycle anyway. Or die of a heart attack.

I do understand minimizing risks. I don't understand the need to point out obviously dangerous activities.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

By posting in this thread, my only intent was to point out that minivans, like SUV's and 4x4 pickups do NOT handle like regular cars in emergency situations. And I was asking those frustrated drivers who think it's a Porsche to do so far away from me. 

Instead of accepting facts, it appears that you're just itching for a fight, and continue to seek justification for driving a minivan. 

By refusing to listen you will likely learn this lesson the hard way. Truly hope that you're traveling alone when the inevitable happens.

Somewhere, deep in the back of people's minds they know that a high, top heavy vehicle is more prone to rollover, yet this stops very, very few from driving it like a regular car. Only when shiite hits the fan, and it rolls over like Fido do they realize that no it does not, and never will perform like a car. This is my point - get it?


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## adam728 (Jan 25, 2006)

I definitely don't drive our minivan like I do my Mazda, nor does my wife drive it like her VW. Maybe it's just the way I am interpreting your posts, but I feel like you are looking to convince everyone that minivans are horrific death traps, and that I am going to die in mine and should take it to the crusher immediately. 

I still wonder, what do you drive now? And what happened to you in a 4wd pickup?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I had a Toyota minivan for a few years. Liked it for lots of reasons, hated that it was mechanically a POS. Didn't want to lose any room and wanted 4WD capability, so it the next vehicle was a Suburban, which I loved everything about but the mileage, and am now looking for my 3rd one. It's just a big-ass station wagon with 4WD, I dunno why some of you guys in mini-vans immediately start thinking about the driver's penis when you see one - that's pretty weird.


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## Neseth (Nov 4, 2009)

Flyin_W said:


> By posting in this thread, my only intent was to point out that minivans, like SUV's and 4x4 pickups do NOT handle like regular cars in emergency situations. And I was asking those frustrated drivers who think it's a Porsche to do so far away from me.
> 
> Instead of accepting facts, it appears that you're just itching for a fight, and continue to seek justification for driving a minivan.
> 
> ...


Too much of your post relies on physics in it's simplest forms. The pic you posted was of a vehicle from the early 90's with an antiquated suspension system. Even cars and sedans looked like that in the early 90's. Not to mention that minivan was outfitted with police lights.

You should really drive a modern minvan, they were worlds apart better than yester-year and have a much lower CG than they appear to have. Only marginally higher than a car. Keep in mind that a minivan doesn't have any higher ground clearance than a sedan. Seats are only slightly higher than a sedan. Really the only extra weight is in the extra roof height, but considering the wheelbase is normally wider than a compact car, this helps to negate the difference.

I drove my mothers Nissan quest on a recent road trip, i was surprised at how well it handled. From the feel behind the wheel, i don't feel that roll-over is any kind of factor on modern minivans. No more than a small car, anything will roll over when you hit a curb.

Also, this so called "emergency maneuver" is a hyper inflated justification for not buying a minivan. They maneuver just fine, by your definition, everyone should just buy a corvette. Today's minivan suspensions are far more sophisticated, and coupled with vehicle dynamic control that actually works quite well, your reasoning is completely obsolete.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Neseth said:


> Too much of your post relies on physics in it's simplest forms. The pic you posted was of a vehicle from the early 90's with an antiquated suspension system. Even cars and sedans looked like that in the early 90's. Not to mention that minivan was outfitted with police lights.
> 
> You should really drive a modern minvan, they were worlds apart better than yester-year and have a much lower CG than they appear to have. Only marginally higher than a car. Keep in mind that a minivan doesn't have any higher ground clearance than a sedan. Seats are only slightly higher than a sedan. Really the only extra weight is in the extra roof height, but considering the wheelbase is normally wider than a compact car, this helps to negate the difference.
> 
> ...


Flyin_W isn't the OP of that picture. TylerW is and he did so to prove to all of us haters how cool he thinks mini vans are. FW reposted his pic to call out his idiocy.


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## PlutonicPlague (Jan 19, 2014)

I test drove an early 90's Isuzu Trooper once, and nearly rolled it (up on 2 wheels!!!) going thru some s-curves at a speed which any of the many vehicles I have owned (including a '62 VW Westphalia camper bus, with a '67 engine bored and sleeved to 1600 cc), would have negotiated fearlessly. Dang Trooper was a top-heavy piece of sh*t! Much worse than any modern mini-vans I've seen.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Minivans fail spectacularly in crash test - Nov. 20, 2014


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> Minivans fail spectacularly in crash test - Nov. 20, 2014


Glad I got a new sienna after watching that


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## Neseth (Nov 4, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Minivans fail spectacularly in crash test - Nov. 20, 2014


This insinuates that minivans are inherently less safe, but that's not really the case. The small overlap test is new and many auto manufacturers are failing spectacularly regardless of vehicle type, even the highest cost vehicles like mercedes, audi, and lexus. The honda minivan did very well in the test, and once the new models from toyota, nissan and chysler catch up. They'll be just as safe. This type of thing happens every time the iihs brings out a new test. It's supposed to be like this to help further improve future products. You can't just bring out a test where everyone passes with flying colors, you need to put out a challenging test where some will fail, and others will pass.

See this article: Mercedes, Lexus and Audi Fail Latest IIHS Crash Tests - KickingTires


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Neseth said:


> This insinuates that minivans are inherently less safe


To some extent, yes, they are, due to this and roll-over tendency/high CG. You can say the same about SUVs, although they typically place the engine out a little further for more of a crumple-zone.


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## Neseth (Nov 4, 2009)

Jayem said:


> To some extent, yes, they are, due to this and roll-over tendency/high CG. You can say the same about SUVs, although they typically place the engine out a little further for more of a crumple-zone.


OMG, for the last time, minivan's don't have a drastically higher center of gravity. That's a garbage assumption made for whatever reason based on nothing really. Fact is, if you want 3 rows because you have 3+ kids, or a business. A minivan is the safest option. Will it match the CG of a corvette or BRZ, no. Those kinds of expectations are completely unrealistic. Minivans can do emergency maneuvers just fine.

ALso, "crumple-zones" were so 1990's. Modern vehicles don't rely on crumple zones, they try to distribute as much impact force across the entire unibody chassis as possible.

From this link: Car Rollovers | Rollover Safety - Consumer Reports


> NHTSA has compiled rollover ratings for scores of vehicles, including separate ratings for two- and four-wheel drive versions of SUVs. So far, no car or minivan has tipped up. In fact, NHTSA conducts on-road rollover testing on only two sedans per year and assigns star ratings to cars based on their SSF alone, as it did with 2003 and earlier models.


In NHTSA testing, they weren't even able to get a minivan to lift.

And again, the small offset crash has nothing to do with the inherent nature of minivans. Many cars from every segment all failed miserably in the small offset crash test. I'm talking, nearly all the small cars, midsize sedans, cuv's, suv's, etc...... The honda odyssey did quiet well, and it's a minivan. The sienna, chryslers will address the test in their next generations. That's what happens whenever the nhtsa comes out with a new test.


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

^ what he said. I'm not sure why this argument is still going on.

I don't give enough shits to look back far enough to see why we are talking about body roll and frontal offset crash tests as if minivans are more suspectible to sucking at these things compared to all the pickups and SUV's on the road (and many passenger cars, because a lot of sedans suck), but get over it already. Minivans are handy. They can be safer than many SUV's that people stupidly choose over minivans when given the choice. They are more versatile for a family than a midsize sedan, and have more room than a wagon. Get over it. To each his own.

With that said, here is my mini minivan with it's winter wheels and tires I just put on. Because gunmetal wheels make anything look better.










I will say, after owning this for a few months, I am really loving the handling (I can fling it around like a passenger car) but I am missing the capacity of my Odyssey (sometimes). Mainly I just miss that I can't fit my cargo bike inside this one, or my normal bikes without taking a wheel off. But in the grand scheme of things, not a big deal. But this isn't a minivan, it's a wagon with sliding doors and a third row. Semantics.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

No wheels (or anything else for that matter) can make a minivan look good. They are the Snuggie of vehicles.



As far as not choosing a minivan being 'stupid', that's a pretty cocky thing to say. Personally, I'm all set with getting hung up and/or stuck in wintery conditions. I live in a rural area and sometimes it's a while before the plows have a chance to swing by. For me, having a vehicle that can handle pushing through some pretty substantial snow is a one of my requirements. If I need to go somewhere and there's a foot of snow on the ground, I'm still going. My neighbors with minivans appreciated this after a big storm a few years back when they couldn't get out to get gas for their generators due to snow, ice and downed trees for a number of days (we were without power for 10 days, and our roads were littered with downed trees for most of a week before crews got to clean up). Ye olde 4X4 was pretty damn popular then, I'll tell ya. 

:thumbsup:

Having owned a minivan in the past, I find that they're nowhere near as capable as a large SUV in sloppy winter conditions. They also don't handle dirt roads as well, and have **** for ground clearance. Not issues for everyone, but if I was going to move away from the large SUV and 'smarten up' (and style down) to a minivan, I would also need to buy a second vehicle to cover my requirements. Why would I buy two vehicles when I can just get one that covers all the bases? Sure, in many areas, a minivan is fine. But for a lot of people, a SUV is also far from a 'stupid' choice. Overall, they're much more capable vehicles in less-than-perfect conditions.


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

^ I should have clarified, but I thought I did by saying "for many people", like not all people. You have excellent points. But SUV's for the majority of drivers are more a fashion statement than a function of utility. I don't believe we had more of a need for SUV's now than we did in the 80's, when the versatile vehicle of choice was the minivan, or in the 60's-70's, when it was the station wagon.

I forget if i said this earlier but I sell Subarus for a living. If I had truly believed that I was better off in something with more ground clearance and AWD, I'd surely be in a Subaru. But the fact of the matter is that with winter tires, my 2WD car is far better in the snow we get in PA than the majority of SUV's on crappy all-seasons that frequent my local roads. The only time I am like "dammit I wish I had an SUV" is at one trail I go to, there is a severely rutted and steep road to ascend, and I have to creep up it so I don't bottom out.

But we have similar points- different vehicles have different strengths and weaknesses. When I had my Odyssey, the low floor was fantastic for many reasons. That space wouldn't exist on an SUV. And as a retort to Flyin_W's retarded post with the Pontiac TranSport (why...), my Odyssey as a full minivan was far more confidence inspiring than many SUV's I've driven. Similarly, other minivan's I've driven feel like deathtraps.

The moral of this thread should be "don't hate on what you don't understand or what you can't personally see the benefit of."

If budget allowed, my ideal vehicle is a 2015 Outback, with more ground clearance than most SUV's but the handling of a car. But my budget does not allow, and the older ones in my usual pricepoint are still way too small for my family needs.


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## ApolloMike (Nov 5, 2014)

I haven't drove anything but a truck for a decade or two. If I could only have one vehicle, it would be a truck. 

About ten years ago, I decided that since the kid was getting older, I would get a crew cab truck, 1500. I figured more room for her in the back, as opposed to an extended cab. Problem was, I lost bed space. That truck was traded in quick for another extended cab. 

Not everyone lives somewhere that has garbage pick up. I wouldn't want to put the trash bags inside a vehicle to take them to the transfer station. A truck be works fine for that. Yard waste in a mini-van? My daughter was in FFA in high school. I am not sure I would want to put a gilt inside a vehicle. The truck bed works. Towing a boat? Something bigger than a jon boat? A truck please.

How about driving back in the trails on work day? The added ground clearance might be helpful.........


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

^ Cool. I have a small utility trailer for the 2 times a year I need it. 

But again, you've chosen a vehicle appropriate for your needs. All I was saying is many people do not.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

XJaredX said:


> ...And as a retort to Flyin_W's retarded post with the Pontiac TranSport (why...), my Odyssey as a full minivan was far more confidence inspiring than many SUV's I've driven. Similarly, other minivan's I've driven feel like deathtraps. The moral of this thread should be "don't hate on what you don't understand or what you can't personally see the benefit of." If budget allowed, my ideal vehicle is a 2015 Outback, with more ground clearance than most SUV's but the handling of a car...


Rather than just return the insult with a big red rep bomb, please let me explain..
First, the pic of the 90's minivan was tylerw's, not mine, I re-posted it to illustrate an earlier point (post #39). 
Which was - that although minivans serve a great purpose, during evasive maneuvers 2 wheel lift can occur. I've seen exactly this in heavy metro traffic, and it's outright scary. Despite your ability to "flick it around like any other car" Do not believe this true for recovery is not.* Even Adam728 admitted that he & wifey do not drive their minivan like their cars. So please, before making unfounded statements, or encouraging others to make a costly mistake, read.

Secondly, I'm not hating on anyone here.
Posted only to prevent someone from my experience (was driving 45 mph, got hit, slid sideways, rolled, and then flipped). 
XJaredX, you & I are in a vast minority - one's who use winter tires. It's not only about being able to go, it's how quickly & reliably one can stop. SUV's are a ski area tow truck operator's bread and butter - 4 (feet further) x 4 (feet deeper).

Perhaps I see more minivan driving idiots because I drive an innocent-looking wagon. I pass them, and suddenly there they are cutting & diving to pass me back. Little do they know that I'm on top rated tires with a stiff suspension, big brakes and slotted rotors. Large difference also is that I'm alone, and they have passengers, often young kids. 
Have not had a speeding ticket in many years, and never do I drive aggressively with others in the vehicle.

Why does the stigma continue? Because minivans are a utility vehicle not a sports car. Proof of idiocy is cemented when passed, and suddenly the minivan driver acts like they're driving a Porsche. 
Be safe, yet preparing for a flamefest.

*Under dynamic testing ("J-Hook") many minivans, and FWD SUV's do not do so well. They do not perform like cars, yet consumers will never know because NHSTA does not include dynamic testing in their vehicle safety ratings -only the SSF test results. Consumer Reports does use the J-Hook test. Anyone remember the big stink by their slamming the Isuzu Trooper?


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## Roxxolid (Jun 16, 2014)

That's a badazz van, I'd love to have one of them... Wonder if you could get one into the States? 


euroford said:


> sorry everybody.... gunna have to deny you that one. it may be practical for many things, and that may work out for you in many ways, but it sure ain't awesome.
> 
> but.... its not really because its a minivan.... its because its a crapbox vehicle in every other way as well. engine, suspension, etc, they just look like crap, drive like crap, no fun at all and declare to the world that you have no taste or passion in vehicles.
> 
> ...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

XJaredX said:


> ^ I should have clarified, but I thought I did by saying "for many people", like not all people. You have excellent points. But SUV's for the majority of drivers are more a fashion statement than a function of utility. I don't believe we had more of a need for SUV's now than we did in the 80's, when the versatile vehicle of choice was the minivan, or in the 60's-70's, when it was the station wagon.
> 
> I forget if i said this earlier but I sell Subarus for a living. If I had truly believed that I was better off in something with more ground clearance and AWD, I'd surely be in a Subaru. But the fact of the matter is that with winter tires, my 2WD car is far better in the snow we get in PA than the majority of SUV's on crappy all-seasons that frequent my local roads. The only time I am like "dammit I wish I had an SUV" is at one trail I go to, there is a severely rutted and steep road to ascend, and I have to creep up it so I don't bottom out.
> 
> ...


Every one of your points is good. After rocking a Previa through a whole ton of adventures and loving at (and having owned a couple old Ramchargers "SUV"s prior to that), I really am a big fan of mini-vans. When the 'yota died, I was aiming for an AWD Odyessy, cuz I really didn't want to give up the space and configurability, but as it turned out, I'm now convinced Suburbans friggin' rule. My wife's got a Ram 1500 sport crew, and I've got a mess-around car in the garage if I want to drive for fun, but I do think I'm hooked as far as a big SUV vs a minivan (and p/u trucks) goes. As far as smaller SUV vs MV, I'd go MV all the way. I tend to haul around a bunch of crap. An Escape or Explorer ain't gonna cut it either.


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## Neseth (Nov 4, 2009)

XJaredX said:


> ^ Cool. I have a small utility trailer for the 2 times a year I need it.
> 
> But again, you've chosen a vehicle appropriate for your needs. All I was saying is many people do not.


Same here, utility trailer is better than a truck bed for most situations. No worries about scratching paint while loading, and it has a ramp i can simply walk or drive up. Getting a motorcycle on truck bed can be disastrous when done by yourself. With my utility trailer, i just drive right up.

Clearing yard waste, no problem. Just pile it on without worrying about scratching the paint.

Tie down points, no problem. Every time i need a new point, i just screw a new D-Ring into place. My trailer has so many now, it's hard not to find a tie down point.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

I tried. I can't.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Neseth said:


> Same here, utility trailer is better than a truck bed for most situations.


Yeah, I've got a couple trailers too. Definitely better for the motos and snomos, and great for yard stuff as mentioned


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## ApolloMike (Nov 5, 2014)

I don't have to worry about snowmobiles. I don't really have a problem loading things up in to the bed using a ramp, and I have no desire to drag a trailer everywhere I go. I have something (be it a bike, scooter, motorcycle, welder, kayak, trash, yard waste, or small livestock) in the bed of my truck probably 4 days a week. Dragging a trailer around all day for an after work trip makes no sense to me.


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## mtb_brew (Oct 7, 2014)

i'll keep my 2012 F150 FX4. i use it to haul way too much stuff around and the ease of going out to the desert and not having to worry about getting stuck is well worth it. Hey if you drive city only and you need to pick up starbucks anywhere you go, then mini-vans are the way to go.:ciappa:


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

Proud MVP here (minivan pilot). As a drummer and welder I would prefer my things don't get rained on or stolen out of the back while shopping at home depot. Why anyone would pay for HALF a vehicle(pick-up) I just don't understand. Also having a window and no room right behind my head make me a little claustrophobic. How do you bring your friends along? Pick ups are for peasants, minivans are for well endowed intelligent types.


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

Oh and 2 pages of arguing over top heavy? How about don't drive like a moron.

As for suvs, lets see you just take out the seats in a 4runner or xterra and put in 
two couches. Yup that's what I thought. Can't do it can ya? With the floor that high
there really isn't much more room than a wagon or car. MVP 4 ever........*****


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## mtb_brew (Oct 7, 2014)

bamwa said:


> Proud MVP here (minivan pilot). As a drummer and welder I would prefer my things don't get rained on or stolen out of the back while shopping at home depot. Why anyone would pay for HALF a vehicle(pick-up) I just don't understand. Also having a window and no room right behind my head make me a little claustrophobic. How do you bring your friends along? Pick ups are for peasants, minivans are for well endowed intelligent types.


Crew cab


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

mrmattjohnson said:


> Crew cab


 Good two word answer btw.

Ok, so you can bring the fam, what happens when it rains on all your gear and luggage in the bed.

Your response=Bed cover. My response= OK, What about Rover? Your response= In crate in bed. My response= In winter? Brrrrr

Cheers, ride on. I was just feeling feisty lately cuz all the minivan hate lately. I need
to stick up for my dorky tribe ya know?


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## mtb_brew (Oct 7, 2014)

Family doesnt ride for now, babies and my wife is a wimp, but if i am going on vacation my gear would be in a camper, in san diego it rains 5 days a year, cold = 50degrees...

(nothing wrong with vans, they just don't do what i need my vehicle to do)


bamwa said:


> Good two word answer btw.
> 
> Ok, so you can bring the fam, what happens when it rains on all your gear and luggage in the bed.
> 
> ...


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## mtb_brew (Oct 7, 2014)

i should have answered with another two word answer:

San Diego


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

Got the class 3 reciever mounted on my Sienna today. I may have to load up to test it out tomorrow.


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

Thats what I'm talking bout!


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

Race day with the buds
Bikes on back







you can also do this







and this


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Cute. I could park your entire minivan in the back of my suv.


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## mtb_brew (Oct 7, 2014)

thats a tent on wheels


bamwa said:


> Thats what I'm talking bout!
> 
> View attachment 946461


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

^ Driving that rig in heavy traffic would give me nightmares.

tap tap tap...


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## ApolloMike (Nov 5, 2014)

bamwa said:


> Thats what I'm talking bout!
> 
> View attachment 946461


That is a whole lot of squat for a light tent trailer. Any suspension left in the rear?

Honestly, if you like a minivan, that's great. It does what you want, and that's all that matters. I would not do that to a unibody vehicle. My wife has a GMC Terrain. As much as she wants a receiver hitch for a bike rack, I am not putting one on that unibody vehicle.

I like having control of what I am towing, not the other way around. You know, brakes on a trailer. Brake controller in the tow vehicle. Seven pin connection. There is a huge difference in handling when you are towing a trailer, as opposed to dragging one behind you.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I think its pretty safe to say that a minivan vs. truck is like apples and oranges with regards to towing and driving characteristics. On a daily basis, can an a minivan to 95% of what a truck does, yes? It is that 5% when you need a bit more towing capability, ground clearance, or the space provided from the bed of a truck. In that case, I just call a friend. 

My wife has a 2011 Sienna, and there is nothing else out there that can load/unload kids and groceries like a van. Door slide open, kids go in. Have a few more passengers, take 3 minutes and pop the back seats out of the floor, and there IS room for two full sized adults. Oh, and the cargo room behind the rear seat ( the rear seats slide forward/back in sienna ) put our 06 pilot to shame.


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## adam728 (Jan 25, 2006)

ApolloMike said:


> That is a whole lot of squat for a light tent trailer. Any suspension left in the rear?
> 
> Honestly, if you like a minivan, that's great. It does what you want, and that's all that matters. I would not do that to a unibody vehicle. My wife has a GMC Terrain. As much as she wants a receiver hitch for a bike rack, I am not putting one on that unibody vehicle.
> 
> I like having control of what I am towing, not the other way around. You know, brakes on a trailer. Brake controller in the tow vehicle. Seven pin connection. There is a huge difference in handling when you are towing a trailer, as opposed to dragging one behind you.


You've got some unfounded fears if you think a hitch and bike rack can't b handled simply because of it being a unibody.

I love the blind, opinionated, wildly different views on minivans here. Makes for good laughs from both sides.

As said, everyone has different needs. Isn't it nice we all don't have to drive exactly the same thing?


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

ApolloMike said:


> That is a whole lot of squat for a light tent trailer. Any suspension left in the rear?
> 
> Honestly, if you like a minivan, that's great. It does what you want, and that's all that matters. I would not do that to a unibody vehicle. My wife has a GMC Terrain. As much as she wants a receiver hitch for a bike rack, I am not putting one on that unibody vehicle.
> 
> I like having control of what I am towing, not the other way around. You know, brakes on a trailer. Brake controller in the tow vehicle. Seven pin connection. There is a huge difference in handling when you are towing a trailer, as opposed to dragging one behind you.


Unibody and trailer hitch in no problem at all. Cargo racks and bike carries will have no ill effects on a unibody vehicle. Towing a trailer, still no problem , the pic above probably has a bit to much tongue weight or is heavily loaded and can use a $100 set of helper springs. It's still no problem since his whole towed rig is under 1500 pounds. My grand Cherokee is unibody and is rated to 8k pounds, I know it tows 5k no problem.

About the only thing I agree with is the 7 pin with brakes.


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## Neseth (Nov 4, 2009)

ApolloMike said:


> I don't have to worry about snowmobiles. I don't really have a problem loading things up in to the bed using a ramp, and I have no desire to drag a trailer everywhere I go. I have something (be it a bike, scooter, motorcycle, welder, kayak, trash, yard waste, or small livestock) in the bed of my truck probably 4 days a week. Dragging a trailer around all day for an after work trip makes no sense to me.


There are literally 100's of videos on youtube of people loading motorcycles onto truck beds and failing epicly.

As far as "dragging a trailer around all day", how much do you travel in a workday? Most people just go straight to work, park their car, then leave. At my job, the people with trailers all park in the back lot, then go do whatever after work.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

bamwa said:


> As for suvs, lets see you just take out the seats in a 4runner or xterra and put in
> two couches. Yup that's what I thought. Can't do it can ya? With the floor that high
> there really isn't much more room than a wagon or car.


I can easily fit a couple couches. 4x8 sheets of plywood also go in flat with the door closed. My Suburban is a far better rig for hauling pretty much anything except landscaping material than my crew cab Ram.


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## Neseth (Nov 4, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> I can easily fit a couple couches. 4x8 sheets of plywood also go in flat with the door closed. My Suburban is a far better rig for hauling pretty much anything except landscaping material than my crew cab Ram.


I don't think thats the point. The suburban is the largest SUV you can buy(excursion discontinued). Its a far less efficient use of space is the point. The trade off is ultimate interior space efficiency for added capability like towing and ground clearance.


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## bald dirt bag (Feb 9, 2014)

I got a Ranger pickup and it did OK for hauling little stuff but security was a concern. A van is nice to haul stuff safely and keep it locked up, I had an asto rear wheel drive and loved it. You can haul a trailer with a van too if it is rear wheel drive. An all wheel drive van would be an option as far as something made in this decade but they are small in capacity these days unless you get a trans van or Mercedes cargo van. A full size would probably be my option if I could afford a new van as I do not drive far and it has a ton of room for my dirt bike and bicycles along with tools and such. The thing around here unfortunately is if you don't lock it up or bolt it down it is gone, we do have a couple pick up trucks but I can't leave much in back of it unless I want to make a donation LOL.


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## mtb_brew (Oct 7, 2014)

however i would drive a FordE350 when its properly equipped (its a van, just not mini)


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## ApolloMike (Nov 5, 2014)

Neseth said:


> There are literally 100's of videos on youtube of people loading motorcycles onto truck beds and failing epicly.
> 
> As far as "dragging a trailer around all day", how much do you travel in a workday? Most people just go straight to work, park their car, then leave. At my job, the people with trailers all park in the back lot, then go do whatever after work.


And there are probably tens of thousands of times people did it without a problem. Ever see a video of someone going down on a bike and crashing? The boring videos don't make youtube.

I don't have the space at work for a trailer. It's a 40 mile one way ride, and my pickup is about the biggest thing fitting in the parking lot.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

bald dirt bag said:


> I got a Ranger pickup and it did OK for hauling little stuff but security was a concern. A van is nice to haul stuff safely and keep it locked up, I had an asto rear wheel drive and loved it. You can haul a trailer with a van too if it is rear wheel drive. An all wheel drive van would be an option as far as something made in this decade but they are small in capacity these days unless you get a trans van or Mercedes cargo van. A full size would probably be my option if I could afford a new van as I do not drive far and it has a ton of room for my dirt bike and bicycles along with tools and such. The thing around here unfortunately is if you don't lock it up or bolt it down it is gone, we do have a couple pick up trucks but I can't leave much in back of it unless I want to make a donation LOL.


Why does a minivan need to be AWD or RWD to haul a trailer ? My Sienna has a factory tow capacity of 3500 pounds, it's FWD.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

^ Wait for 2-3" of snow. Find a large empty parking lot. Hook the trailer up to your FWD, and go play. Learn about the boundary of control. What happens when exceeded, and if able to recover. Please share your findings.

tap tap tap...


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

Flyin_W said:


> ^ Wait for 2-3" of snow. Find a large empty parking lot. Hook the trailer up to your FWD, and go play. Learn about the boundary of control. What happens when exceeded, and if able to recover. Please share your findings.
> 
> tap tap tap...


really not that easy to do for me, and I'm not buying a vehicle for the freak chance that I'm ever in that situation.

I've towed trailers on and of for over 20 years of driving and have yet to tow in the snow.


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

In response. I do have a bit of sag when loaded down in the tow vehicle. I'd like those adjustable airbags that fit inside the rear coil springs. As far as seven pin, my pop up is around 1000 lbs and can be pulled my hand. Really don't need brakes on that puppy or else Starcraft would have put them on at the factory.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

terrasmak said:


> really not that easy to do for me, and I'm not buying a vehicle for the freak chance that I'm ever in that situation.
> 
> I've towed trailers on and of for over 20 years of driving and have yet to tow in the snow.


The exercise is not about about trailering in snow, your vast experience, or picking on minivan owners. It's about maintaining, retaining, and regaining control.

One lacking a desire to learn cannot be taught.

tap tap tap...


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

One MAJOR point I for to include about minivans.......

NEVER GET PULLED OVER! 

I mean not one single cop has ever 
looked twice in my decade or so of minivanning. 
And I tend to speed just a little bit. So there's that.


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

I have a minivan. It's not sexy but the kids haven't rammed a door into the next vehicle since we got it. Your welcome all the people I've parked next two in the last 4 years.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

Rae6503 said:


> I have a minivan. It's not sexy but the kids haven't rammed a door into the next vehicle since we got it. Your welcome all the people I've parked next two in the last 4 years.


I didn't even think of that aspect, would suck to have to pay to fix someone's door cause my kids opened a door into it.


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## gravitylover (Sep 1, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Every one of your points is good. After rocking a Previa through a whole ton of adventures and loving at (and having owned a couple old Ramchargers "SUV"s prior to that), I really am a big fan of mini-vans. When the 'yota died, I was aiming for an AWD Odyessy, cuz I really didn't want to give up the space and configurability, but as it turned out, I'm now convinced Suburbans friggin' rule. My wife's got a Ram 1500 sport crew, and I've got a mess-around car in the garage if I want to drive for fun, but I do think I'm hooked as far as a big SUV vs a minivan (and p/u trucks) goes. As far as smaller SUV vs MV, I'd go MV all the way. I tend to haul around a bunch of crap. An Escape or Explorer ain't gonna cut it either.


Can you fit mt bikes (wheels on) in the back of a Suburban/Escalade/Yukon XL with the middle seat in place? I want to get a 1500 soon but need to know this critical piece of info first. What I need is a rig big enough to squeeze four bikes and four people into and 4WD/AWD is second most important with family + 2 dogs haulability in third. There are some great deals out there on Z71 Suburbans and Escalade ESV's at the moment.

Sorry but minivans are out of the question, wife won't be seen in one. Full size vans are marginally acceptable but there aren't many affordable 4WD/AWD ones out there.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

gravitylover said:


> Can you fit mt bikes (wheels on) in the back of a Suburban/Escalade/Yukon XL with the middle seat in place?


You can't fit MTBs standing with both wheels on (as mentioned previously, you give up some headroom going with an SUV platform), so though you could conceivable stack 4 of them laying down on top of each other, it would be a PIA and you wouldn't want to anyway. One or two work fine if you lay them over, though a long wheelbase 29er would be really be tight lengthwise and would need take a little wrangling with the middle row seats up. I find it a lot easier to just pop the front wheels off. No problem doing 5 bikes and 5 riders + gear that way.

I checked out a Yukon XL Denali the other day and it had captains chairs for the second row seats which didn't fold down flat like the bench style does. Wasn't a big fan of that config, definitely stick to the rear bench IMO. The third row is completely removable; mine lives in the shed and only gets pulled out a couple times a year if I'm hauling a bunch of people for some reason.

One nice thing about the Suburban is it drives a lot 'smaller' than you'd think. In parking lots or any sort of tight situtation, it feels like it's half the size of my Ram. Much better visibility etc, kind of surprisingly.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Rae6503 said:


> I have a minivan. It's not sexy but the kids haven't rammed a door into the next vehicle since we got it. Your welcome all the people I've parked next two in the last 4 years.


So you are patting yourself on the back for not doing something 
you not supposed to do?


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## gravitylover (Sep 1, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> You can't fit MTBs standing with both wheels on (as mentioned previously, you give up some headroom going with an SUV platform), ...
> 
> I checked out a Yukon XL Denali the other day and it had captains chairs for the second row seats which didn't fold down flat like the bench style does. Wasn't a big fan of that config, definitely stick to the rear bench IMO. The third row is completely removable; mine lives in the shed and only gets pulled out a couple times a year if I'm hauling a bunch of people for some reason.
> 
> One nice thing about the Suburban is it drives a lot 'smaller' than you'd think. In parking lots or any sort of tight situtation, it feels like it's half the size of my Ram. Much better visibility etc, kind of surprisingly.


What's the actual measurement from floor to ceiling? Nobody in my house is what you'd call tall, the biggest bike is a little less than 45" floor to top of handlebar and the others are shorter.

edit: inside is 42-43" but the gate opening is under 40. Seat back to tailgate is just over 5 feet so a foot short of most bikes inside with the wheels on.

I actually like the middle captains chairs, makes it much easier to put skis inside. The chances of me needing the full interior totally flat are pretty slim, if so I would probably just take the seats out. Good to know the rear seat comes out easily, I suspected that was the case but confirmation is good. Thanks.


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## Rae6503 (Jun 30, 2009)

acer66 said:


> So you are patting yourself on the back for not doing something
> you not supposed to do?


No, I'm patting myself on the back for preventing my children from doing something that they have little control of, which might harm other vehicles. Telling a 4 year old to carefully open the door without hitting the car next to us doesn't really work.


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## TomFL (Feb 6, 2004)

Hmmm


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

How about the Apple minivan to alter or change the minivan stigma.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/apples-titan-car-project-to-challenge-tesla-1423868072


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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

I love the idea of a minivan. It was my wife who axed the idea and insisted on an SUV. When ever she has to contort herself to attend to our son in the back and complains about how that hurts her back or neck I tell her to stop b!tching because this is what she wanted. With a minivan it would be very easy for her to hop back there.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

tonyride1 said:


> I love the idea of a minivan. It was my wife who axed the idea and insisted on an SUV. When ever she has to contort herself to attend to our son in the back and complains about how that hurts her back or neck I tell her to stop b!tching because this is what she wanted. With a minivan it would be very easy for her to hop back there.


I'm glad I was able to talk my wife into one. Just the fact that it has sliding doors and I don't have to worry about the kids denting up my other cars is worth it. Only thing I wish for is more ground clearance so I can take it camping in more remote locations.


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## Jacksonn (Jan 25, 2004)

*Carry Two 29ers with Wheels On, Like Child's Play...SUV's need not apply...*

No STIGMA here, just balls . Checkout the 2000 Honda Odyssey carrying two 29ers with wheels on, just like child's play. LINK provided below.

Does your mountain bike fit/travel "in" your car? - Page 16- Mtbr.com

Jacksonn


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## Hpirx (Jan 15, 2009)

Picking up a 2011 Odyssey tomorrow. Optioned-out Touring Elite.
Looking forward to stuffing it full of FatBike Goodness and dragging my buddies everywhere. Need the enclosed security and the better milage of the minivan.
Car ego has already been neutralized by driving the Kia Soul previously.
Bike ego is doing just fine, thanks!


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## stew325 (Jan 3, 2011)

You'll love the Odyssey. I used mine all last summer for road trips for racing. Used with a hitch rack, or with bikes inside. Perfect for bikes and gear. Just put the pilot 18" wheels on it. Looks good. 
Would much rather drive a burly SUV, just don't want to fuel one. My last vehicle was an Envoy, and that will be the last GM. I've had great GM's in the past, but the last couple have been just brutal.


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## siata94 (Jan 27, 2013)

imo stigma is big SUV/truck w/ pristine tow hitch


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

I bought my first Minivan finally... a 1996 Grand Caravan in really great shape for the _ultra_ cheap.

Coming from a slew of cars, I LOVE it for it's ultra functionality. It feels like I own so much more than what a car was, and sooo useable. I plan on using it as a tent on wheels as well when I'm on road trips to races or rides.


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## stremf (Dec 7, 2012)

I wouldn't mind a utility van like a Ford Transit Connect (bare bones with no carpeting/seats in the back). But can't bring myself to buy a minivan, even with 3 kids. I've rented plenty and see the benefits. But not so much that I would actually buy one. This is taking into account our family trips include driving way out in the bush. Need a proper truck/SUV for that. Plus, we have real winters here.

If our trips were more urban and no snow season, then maybe I would consider one.


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## Achilles1b (Aug 3, 2015)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> SUVs are exactly the same as minivans - you are sitting in a big box with rows of seats behind you. Pick any category, and minivans are hard to beat - interior space, fuel economy, low overall cost, cheap to repair and maintain. And, they are plentiful on the used market.


If anything, modern minivans probably have a better ride than the SUVs.

Some people worry about how they look, some people worry about how things get done.


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

My first car was a 1964 Ford Falcon Econoline van. It got 20mpg empty or with 3 dirt bikes in it. 

I put plywood, carpet, and paneling in it. When empty, I rolled down carpet and filled the back with bean bag chairs for a rolling party mobile. 

Roll up the carpet, put in 3 dirt bikes, and drive to the trail head, then unload the bikes and have a dry changing room for before and after the rides. My van was 20 years old, and every one always wanted me to drive when we went dirt bike riding, even though they had brand new trucks.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

stremf said:


> I wouldn't mind a utility van like a Ford Transit Connect (bare bones with no carpeting/seats in the back). But can't bring myself to buy a minivan, even with 3 kids. I've rented plenty and see the benefits. But not so much that I would actually buy one. This is taking into account our family trips include driving way out in the bush. Need a proper truck/SUV for that. Plus, we have real winters here.
> 
> If our trips were more urban and no snow season, then maybe I would consider one.


The Sienna is available in AWD


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

My Jeep is acting up a bit and I'm waiting for parts from the UK, so my wife took my minivan. I miss my minivan, so much room and my bike easily slides in if I don't feel like hooking the rack up


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Funny this thread resurfaced.

Been hauling my bikes on the back of our Chevy cobalt. Occasionally my POS S10 if its to the local trail.

My aunt texts me a couple weeks ago cause she remembered we were putting together money for a down payment on a used van. Sold me her Voyager for a couple hundred cause she bought a new car. Needed some love as she fixed only as needed beyond changing fluids. Blown rear brake lines, rough running etc. Turns out instead of calling me (knew I had surgery on my arm but didn't realize I wasn't completely did functional) she had some moron work on it a few times.

Couple hundred in it and not a bad van. Tune up, made the brake lines myself, gaskets and such. Drives good, needs a sensor and timing belt and good to go.

Drove it to work the other night and got made fun of lol. It's a "Mommy Van". 

My response " actually got it for hauling my bikes "

Her (she sees my bikes as I ride one of my 3 to work a few times a week) "Oh ya your bikes are your babies?"

Me- "yeap, but I got my boys too, this way they can ride comfortably, all our stuff and bikes stay dry. I'm done buying cars to look cool, buy what I need to do the job I want"

Minivan stigma won't die but don't car. My kids and my bikes are what matters, ppl can suck it!

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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

I've been moving to a new home and borrowed my in-laws loaded AWD Sienna for a few trips. It was OK, but dynamically conflicted and not all that great MPG. I needed to move bigger stuff than it would handle so a RAM ProMaster from U-Hual is in my drive right now, and I am pretty impressed with it. Its the long WB low roof model, and it actually does pretty well dynamically for what it is. It is hard to tell if the V6 is a good motor due to the crappy auto trans in it however. The inside is huge, and the driving position is nice and upright. I think I would prefer the Ford Transit with its lower floor and step-in height. With FWD and some decent snow tires, it would most likely be better than any RWD pick-up.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

8 months and 16,000 miles later on my $50 1996 Plymouth Grand Voyager... I gotta say it's been the most useful and versatile vehicle I've ever owned. I've also really enjoyed driving it, it's great on the highway.

It's saved me a bunch of money too since I've camped in it more times than I can count on trips I would have otherwise hoteled it. That's really the great thing about it, i can pack two bikes, gear, and still sleep in it! I slept in a walmart parking lot before Lowell 50 this year...FREE.

__
http://instagr.am/p/7kzza6NJAE/


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

This cross country MTB trip with three of my buddies dispelled any reservations I ever had about minivans. Super comfortable on the highway, good on gas, room for two to sleep comfortably for driving through the night even with all the gear. Amazing tool for the job.

No vehicle looks dorky with a mountain bike on the back.









Besides, if you need a car to prove you are not a soccer mom, you need to ride your mountain bike more.


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## WhiskeyJr (Jul 3, 2014)

kapusta said:


> This cross country MTB trip with three of my buddies dispelled any reservations I ever had about minivans. Super comfortable on the highway, good on gas, room for two to sleep comfortably for driving through the night even with all the gear. Amazing tool for the job.
> 
> No vehicle looks dorky with a mountain bike on the back.
> 
> ...


Side question, how hard was it to open the rear liftgate with the bikes on the back? Would they all have to come down, or just a couple?

My wife and I just rented a T&C and put 1400 highway miles on it this holiday weekend. Two kids, bundles of toys, bunches of movies and snacks. Had the fatbike on the back using a Saris Bones, stowed the Burley Trailer inside along with my kid's balance bike. When staying at the hotel, I just shoved the fatbike inside the van at night and was far less worried about theft. And I didn't have to sneak the bikes up to the 6th floor of the hotel, either.

Best thing? With the bike on the rack in back, I stowed the passenger 2nd row seat in the floor, created large flat load floor accessible from the passenger sliding door. I put the rear facing kid seat in the driver 2nd row, front facing kid seat in the rear row. Lots of room to change diapers, and better still, lots of room to sit and watch movies with the kids during breaks and stopovers.

I will be buying one of these things this week. For this stage in my life, it is a far better fit than the Jeep GC or Dodge Charger I currently own.

Lord, do I hate car payments, but I will begin them again to buy this flying movie-screen, bike toting, happy kid mobile.

FWIW, I love that these things have a stigma. The resale value on them tanks after two years, and a slightly used one is quite affordable. The Dodge/Chrysler minivans have a 5year 100k transferable drive-line warranty, so at least the motor and transmission are covered.

We are looking at a 15 or 16 with less than 25k miles and expect to pay around 25k. If they were popular, this would not be possible.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

WhiskeyJr said:


> Side question, how hard was it to open the rear liftgate with the bikes on the back? Would they all have to come down, or just a couple?
> 
> My wife and I just rented a T&C and put 1400 highway miles on it this holiday weekend. Two kids, bundles of toys, bunches of movies and snacks. Had the fatbike on the back using a Saris Bones, stowed the Burley Trailer inside along with my kid's balance bike. When staying at the hotel, I just shoved the fatbike inside the van at night and was far less worried about theft. And I didn't have to sneak the bikes up to the 6th floor of the hotel, either.
> 
> ...


With this particular set up, we had to remove one or two bikes closest to the hatch to open it up. This probably depends on the rack, and whether it can be tilted back. I don't think this one was able to tilt back.

This minivan was a rental. One of the guys on the trip actually has the exact same vehicle (and guess who's vehicle we always take on weekend trips?) but due to insurance reasons, we could not take his on this trip from VA to UT and back. We took the roofrack and trailer hitch from his Caravan and it all bolted right on this T&C.

With the middle row dropped into the floor we were able to make room for two people to lay down in the back. This allowed each of us to do 2 hrs driving, 2 as passenger, and 4 sleeping in the back, so driving 30 hr straight was quite easy.

This was just awesome to drive on the highway. I like the upright driving position. Drives much nicer and gets way better mileage than the behemoth SUV you would need to have comparable interior space.

Having two roof boxes helped. Still got pretty good gas mileage.

And it still got us everywhere we needed to go in Moab for MTB and camping purposes.


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## WhiskeyJr (Jul 3, 2014)

kapusta said:


> With this particular set up, we had to remove one or two bikes closest to the hatch to open it up.


This setup would have been better than the Saris Bones setup I used. I had to completely remove the bike, etc to open the hatch, or have someone hold the very heavy bike/hatch open while fiddling around back there. I thought about some sort of prop-rod, but the possibility of catastrophic failure and associated injuries around a 1 year old and 3 year old were too great.



kapusta said:


> We took the roofrack and trailer hitch from his Caravan and it all bolted right on this T&C.


I thought all the T&C's had a default factory roof rack. Did you move an aftermarket rack from the Caravan to the T&C?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

WhiskeyJr said:


> I thought all the T&C's had a default factory roof rack. Did you move an aftermarket rack from the Caravan to the T&C?


Yes, we moved his Yakima setup to the T&C. I forget what, if anything, was already there, but I am sure if there was a rack it would not have been wide enough for two large roof boxes. That's the limitation with most factory racks, they just go between the rails. With aftermarket setups you can have the rails stick out farther.

This trip was in the fall of 2014. I assume the T&C was a 2013 or 2014 model.


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

Why would you care what anyone else thinks of what you drive? Are their opinions really that important to you? A friend of mine just sold her Odyssey and bought a pilot partly because of image. Nice vehicle but not as practical for road-tripping with bikes.


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## ApolloMike (Nov 5, 2014)

Skooks said:


> Why would you care what anyone else thinks of what you drive? Are their opinions really that important to you? A friend of mine just sold her Odyssey and bought a pilot partly because of image. Nice vehicle but not as practical for road-tripping with bikes.


Pretty much the same vehicle. Odyssey and Pilot are built on the same platform.

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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

ApolloMike said:


> Pretty much the same vehicle. Odyssey and Pilot are built on the same platform.


But what is built ON that platform is very different.


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## WhiskeyJr (Jul 3, 2014)

Just bought a Town & Country today! I am so stoked!


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

Awesome! !

The downside is that I've been recruited for two dif moving situations 

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

kapusta said:


> But what is built ON that platform is very different.


Not so much the pilot is nothing more than an urban SUV. Basically a minivan made to look like a truck. It's so sad that the SUV has turned into nothing but a soccer mom vehicle with decent towing capacity.

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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

KevinGT said:


> The two greatest marketing campaigns in the history of the automotive world are the US Pickup Truck and the US SUV.
> 
> Companies have brilliantly convinced American males that driving a pickup makes them more of a man...even if they spend 99% of their time alone in traffic heading to their job as assistant manager at Best Buy. 13 miles per gallon and a 200 year old suspension system but it's MANLY the one day a year when they need a sheet of drywall from Home Depot. "Good thing I bought this truck, honey!" LOL.
> 
> ...


My f150 gets 19mpg

It can also bring 6 people my size (6'3") to and from trails with no problems

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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> Not so much the pilot is nothing more than an urban SUV. Basically a minivan made to look like a truck. It's so sad that the SUV has turned into nothing but a soccer mom vehicle with decent towing capacity.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


The interior room in these two vehicles is very different. That becomes obvious when you get inside of them.

Just look at the cargo capacity. It is not even close. The Odyssey has between 40-90% more (depending how you calculate it) Total cargo volume behind the front seats. The interior is both taller and longer.

Also, the lower floor and the sliding side doors make a big difference in loading stuff.

The pilot has a shorter wheelbase and more ground clearance and has a differently tuned suspension. And the Odyssey driver sits more upright and farther forward in the vehicle with better sigh-lines out the front. So they drive very differently.

The AWD pilot has a significantly higher rated towing capacity than the Odyssey.

Not the same thing. Not even close.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

To the comment on driving dynamic, I suggest checking out the SE version of Sienna. The 1 inch lower, tighter steering and premium tires make quite a bit of difference. 2015+ also have re-done interior with a much better dashboard than earlier Sienna or an Odyssey. SE version also get mono-color trim and seats same as whatever they call the super premium model.

The extra power over an Odyssey is a minor hit to fuel economy but completely appropriate when you are loaded.

I confess we haven't done hitch rack on the lowered SE model.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

As a 15yr ASE tech there is alot more similarities than one realizes.

The pilot is not an SUV by definition. It's made to look like one and able to tow a boat or camping trailer. That comes with the needed changes to accommodate such uses. 

There's several "SUVs" that are now guilty of this. The pilot and many other late model SUVs would do no better off the pavement (other than making use of ground clearance) than a car or minivan. They are just not built rugged like real SUVs. So it essentially is no better than a minivan in That sense. They have become nothing more than vehicles for people with more money than common sense or accepting that they carry more "soccer mom" stigma than mini vans do these days.

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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> As a 15yr ASE tech there is alot more similarities than one realizes.
> 
> The pilot is not an SUV by definition. It's made to look like one and able to tow a boat or camping trailer. That comes with the needed changes to accommodate such uses.
> 
> ...


It seems that your logic here is that since they are both not SUV's they are the same thing. That does not really make sense. If you want to call the Pilot a minivan, that's fine (you could also call it a beefed up station wagon or a large Crossover, it really makes little difference) but it is really lousy as a minivan.

These esoteric points you are making do not change the fact that for all practical purposes of use, driver experience, passenger comfort, and cargo capability, the Pilot and Odessey are very different.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Pilot sits higher, has less room and you sit more centered.

I drive vehicles to do their job, get me and others from point a to point b. I dont even think about "driver experience". Only one I care about is not being uncomfortable for long drives.

I just have a more simplistic look of things. Partially why even though I've driven and serviced both, I'd never own them. Neither had anything to offer (as well as a long, long list of other vehicles on the market) to me that can't be had for a lot lower cost.

Dodge caravan does they same job at half the price (though a grand caravan or t&c has a bit better useable space). An an American based SUV can go off pavement without snapping in half lol.

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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> Pilot sits higher, has less room and you sit more centered.
> 
> I drive vehicles to do their job, get me and others from point a to point b. I dont even think about "driver experience". Only one I care about is not being uncomfortable for long drives.
> 
> ...


Gotta say that as far as the usable space and interior layout, the Caravan and T&C are really hard to beat. That T&C I pictured above is what made me embrace the minivan as a MTB/outdoor rec vehicle. I like it better than the Odyssey I checked out last week. And the T&C drove fine for my tastes.

It is just that my family has had very good luck with Honda vehicles over the years, but the old Caravan was a bit of a dog in it's old age. But every indication I hear is that they are making them much better, so I will give the Caravan real consideration if we go the minivan route in the future.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

The new Caravan/TC design is ugly. They decided to make it similar looking to the Honda and Toyota to get away from the minivan "stigma". Whatever, u just designed it too look like the new stigma! I saw one roll by the other day, the ass of it is just ugly. They did make it larger and more aero though. 

Just thought the boxy bold van style of prev gen was much nicer looking. 





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## WhiskeyJr (Jul 3, 2014)

zephxiii said:


> The new Caravan/TC design is ugly.


Well, my wife and I like it, and we are very happy with our purchase!

The room inside the van, with the stow&go seats, is fantastic. Fits the fat bike, two kids, burley trailer and balance bike inside.

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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

We like our Estima Areas. We went for the 2.4L straight 4.
Pulled the rear seats out, bolted a bit of plywood to the seat mount rails and fork mounts to that.

A van that drives like a car and gets better fuel economy than our old Bluebird SSS.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

This older base model caravan I got will do its job for now, but definitely turned me on to minivans. Its smaller the T&C, grand caravan etc so with mid seat in i can just barely fit a bike with front wheel removed. Plenty of room around it for whatever but be glad when it's newer vehicle time so I can get a bigger one.

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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

I never really understood the short wheelbase version of the Caravan/TC/Voyager. Why would u not want the full enchalada of the Grands? That's when it's at it's best! I've never driven one, maybe it feels lighter and more sporty and that's the reasoning. 


WhiskeyJr said:


> Well, my wife and I like it, and we are very happy with our purchase!
> 
> The room inside the van, with the stow&go seats, is fantastic. Fits the fat bike, two kids, burley trailer and balance bike inside.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good, I'm glad u r liking the design. i just felt a little let down with the design change having 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gens in my life and how good the boxy prev gen looked.

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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

I had an 05 "stubby" Caravan and loved it. The 13" difference is great for parking and viewing traffic. I replaced it with a 2014 Sienna SE. Nicest van I could find that didn't look like my grand parents drove it. I can admit I love my vans. I also have 3 near adult kids all over 6' and can't imagine cramming them into a SUV of any kind. Great on fuel, carries all of our gear and us without any drama. Cruises nice at 140kph too! Attracts 0 heat from cops or criminals = perfect!


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Oh ya thats another good point to minivans, no one looks twice at them. And the factory tinted windows is nice too in case you have stuff inside.

Having this thing I rather hard pressed not to just gonna 2 minivan household. My wife really likes the Siennas but they out of our price range by alot right now. May try to get her a used one next year and keep the stubby as my vehicle.

Thankfully a guy driving a minivan is acceptable here under 2 circumstance. Small time contractor or cyclist. Beyond that you better have a car or more preferably a pick up.

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## canker (Jul 26, 2007)

Never had a speeding ticket in my 5.0l mustang or my miatas but I did get one in my beat up 89 dodge caravan. I use to say nobody including cops looked at them either till that happened .


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## Weinerts (Feb 3, 2011)

Just an update - I still love my van.


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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

Weinerts said:


> Just an update - I still love my van.


Whew. We were all wondering about that. I still want my wife's next vehicle to be a minivan but she's having none of it.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

That reminds me:

We just bought a 2007 honda Odyssey. Thing has got so much room in the back with the third row folded down into the back. 

Like it's version of stow and go for the third row because it gives us a far amount of space when seats are up in the back. But you empty that space out, fold and flip the rear seats down I to it and have a massive, flat cargo area. Can fit at least 2 bikes with front wheels off with plenty of extra space.

Oh and thing is a dream to drive. Road trip for Thanksgiving weekend (we always come to St Louis to see wife's family for a few days over the holiday) so much more comfortable. Though my bikes are on a rack on the rear for this run its still totally worth it!

My carvan has become local area bike hauler, commuting vehicle (when I drive instead of ride) and best of all, keep my trail work tools in it as well. More secure and convenient.

A few months into having one mini van and now we have 2, they are the greatest vehicle ever for this lifestyle. Kids, bikes, work everything we could need and can leave stuff inside it locked up. Not to mention much better fuel economy vs a truck or full size van. And way more comfortable on long drives.

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## stew325 (Jan 3, 2011)

I've had an Odyssey for 5 years. Love it. I hated the thought of driving it at first, but it drives great. My son and I race XC, so it's the road trip vehicle all summer long. Both bikes in the back with wheels off, and all out camping and race gear all fits perfectly. We've even slept in it a few times in torrential rain, that would have been a nightmare in a tent. Brought lumber and 4X8 sheets off plywood home in it last weekend. Thought about buying a Ridgeline a few weeks ago. Glad that didn't work out now. It would be much less practical.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Pt cruiser lol. Never understood why they even made those.

I will tell you that many minivans are under powered, like my caravan, when trying to run down the higher while loaded.

My Odyssey though.....3.5L v-tec and first year they started putting the Ridgeline transmissions in them. Trip to St. Louis we weren't very loaded and 80 was nothing going down the highway even against a headwind. No mountains thank God but a lot of steepish rolling hills.

Came back pretty loaded with crap plus everything we took with (including bikes on the back). Cruise set at 80 and didn't even notice the extra weight.

Thing has got some serious power under the hood for a minivan lol. I did decide to try and see what happens if I stood on it from a dead stop. Got yelled at by the wife. Makes my caravan look like an underpowered turd hehe. I can see this van causing us both our first speeding tickets because you don't even feel it doing 80-90mph down the highway.

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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

PT Cruiser. Yikes. More like PT Bruiser. I had one for a week as a rental and I couldn't wait o give it back. I've rented a lot of cars for my various business trip and I got everything from a Toyota Yaris to a Jaguar XJ and the PT Bruiser was by far the worst. It had no redeeming value. The Yaris was at least great on gas. Anyway, i tried to talk my wife into getting an Odyssey or even a Toyota Sienna because I know she's and of Honda and Toyota but she was dead set against a minivan. Oh well.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

She doesn't know what she's missing. Unless she's towing a big trailer or boat nothing comes close when it comes to having kids and being a cyclist at the same time.

My wife was against a minivan till she had to drive a sienna for work (only during her work hours) because the Camry was in the shop. She really wanted a sienna then. Only one she wanted. We were looking for a used van when we stumbled across this Odyssey. Elderly man had it (passed away and granddaughter was going to keep it but desided to sell it) and hit dinged every body panel is has. But kept it clean and a file of every service ever done on it.

So we got an insane deal, half what it was worth because of the dings and dented rear deck. Sienna's of the same year were out of our price range at the moment and we needed a replacement for our Chevy cobalt asap. Kids just too big and long road trips suck in it because of it.

I convinced the wife to look at it...all the bells and whistles (2007) except DVD/nav, now she grabs the keys before i even get close. She's claimed it lol.

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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Minivan/Momvan/Familyvan owner here—we have a 2012 Kia Sedona and love it. I haven't read this whole thread yet, but echo many other comments: no way any SUV is half as practical—especially if you have kids!

We take our minivan everywhere—including pretty rutted-up doubletrack in national forests. (We don't care if it gets dirty or beat up.) It drives fine and is super-comfortable.

Most recently, we've hauled a trailer with a couple cords of firewood we cut in the local NF (one cord at a time), and the van handled it with no problems at all.

Having said all this, I'm AMAZED that the auto industry hasn't started making an "offroad minivan" like that Mitsubishi model that people import like crazy. 

I would almost kill for a minivan with exactly the same interior layout, sliding side doors, but just with a several extra inches of clearance and all-wheel drive. That would be the most versatile vehicle on the road, bar none (and DESTROY any SUV out there in terms of do-anything-practicality!).

Scott


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## ApolloMike (Nov 5, 2014)

SWriverstone said:


> Minivan/Momvan/Familyvan owner here-we have a 2012 Kia Sedona and love it. I haven't read this whole thread yet, but echo many other comments: no way any SUV is half as practical-especially if you have kids!
> 
> We take our minivan everywhere-including pretty rutted-up doubletrack in national forests. (We don't care if it gets dirty or beat up.) It drives fine and is super-comfortable.
> 
> ...


Except a true minivan won't tow much. Unibody construction with a shorter wheelbase usually limit towing to under 3500 pounds. Now, once you step up to a full size van, like that newer Nissan NV or GMC Savana, you can get a similar layout, sliding side door, and extra clearance, all built with body on frame, and a longer wheelbase, allowing you to tow something other than a 5x10 single axle utility trailer.

I say this because I drag my 7000 pound mobile hotel room behind my Silverado when I travel to mountain biking locations, or other vacation spots, and a smaller vehicle just won't do it. I could probably look into something like a Grand Cherokee, but I am pretty sure I would be dang close to max GCWR/towing capacity, and that gets sketchy. I also would be giving up the truck bed, which hauls tools and people out into the woods/trails for workdays.

If it works for some people, that's great. It sure isn't a panacea for all.

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Definitely not for everyone. Good for towing a little pop up camper and thats about it. 

I look at fuel economy too. If you don't need to tow anything big (which sucks gas even worse) then it works. My caravan has been doing great at replacing a work truck though. Take out the middle seat and I have almost the space of a full size pickup. Of course not the load capacity but I don't need that either. 

Some days I could seriously use a pickup but that's what friends/family is for in my case.

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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

One thing's for certain: sooner or later (very possibly in our lifetimes) the cost of gas is gonna go up again—to $4, $5/gallon or higher. And stay up there.

And when that happens, the market for galaxy-class monster vehicles (Excursion, Sequoia, Suburban, etc.) will fall through the floor. The same may well happen to all vans of any stripe.

I marvel that with climate change and the finite life of fossil fuels, so many people (including myself) are driving around in vehicles that get SHITTY fuel efficiency, period. You can quibble all you want over relative arguments about how 24mpg beats 19mpg...but 24mpg is still AWFUL fuel efficiency.

One possibility, though, is that when gas costs $6/gal, galaxy-class vehicles that can hold 6 people and their gear may be *more* popular, since ride-sharing will become more popular.

---
I didn't hear too many people in this thread talk about having kids. My impression is that most van-bashers don't have kids. It probably sounds lame, but when you're heading back to the car with armloads of groceries or shopping and towing two whining toddlers as well, electric-opening side doors are AWESOME. 

Scott


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I have 5 kids. I HATE minivans. My SUV does everything a mini van can do and much more. I pay for that extra utility with lower gas mileage. That's my understood tradeoff. Yours is lack of offroad-ability, towing and foul weather performance (even if a mini van has awd, it's shitty awd). I'll take one tradeoff vs three (at least).


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

SWriverstone said:


> One thing's for certain: sooner or later (very possibly in our lifetimes) the cost of gas is gonna go up again-to $4, $5/gallon or higher. And stay up there.
> 
> And when that happens, the market for galaxy-class monster vehicles (Excursion, Sequoia, Suburban, etc.) will fall through the floor. The same may well happen to all vans of any stripe.


I've owned a minivan in the past. I'm on my second Suburban though right now though and the chances of me ever going back to a mini instead are exactly zero. Just a far superior vehicle, particularly in crappy conditions.

The whole idea that there's a big gas mileage difference is a bunch of BS if you take the time to look at the numbers. For example:

2016 Sienna AWD 16/23
2016 Chevy Suburban 16/23

Start loading these vehicles up and doing some long hauls with them and you'll see better mileage from a big SUV than an overloaded minivan.

If you need electric doors and a low step in (or you're just afraid of getting dirty looks from Green Party types), then minivans clearly win. Personally, I like to have a vehicle that can perform as both a minivan and a truck. Big SUVs fit that bill perfectly, and no, there's not that big an MPG hit, if any. Particularly in my case, where we actually use it strictly as a "sport/utility vehicle" and drive our regular cars for commuting and general use.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

We're paying $5.30 per gallon for 91 octane over here and it has been significantly higher.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

$2.60 for 93 here.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Mini vans are awesome and my Transit Connect cargo mini is even awsomer. Bikes roll in, bikes roll out, and they stay warm & dry. 99.9% of the trailheads I frequent are paved or smoothish dirt so I could give a rats @ss about 4-wd or ground clearance.


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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Some folks here are making some ludicrous arguments—like minivan towing capacity sucks and offroad capability is lame.

Umm...that's NO different than me saying "the best SUV on the planet has **** for range if it can't go 600 miles on a single tank." What's that you say? You don't NEED to go 600 miles on a single tank? 

I don't need 5,000lb towing capacity, nor do I need the ability to drive down dry riverbeds filled with rocks.

Needs and capabilities are entirely relative. Our minivan fits our needs perfectly.

Scott

PS - I'm stunned by how many soccer moms refuse to drive minivans for fear of not being cool. Didn't they all get the memo??? They're SOCCER MOMS for chrissake!!! LOL They are, by default, NOT COOL.  (Yes, that's said somewhat tongue-in-cheek.)


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

I really don't get the point of this thread. If a minivan works for you then great. If not then drive something else. Why would you care what anyone else thinks about your choice of vehicles?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I loved my minivan personally. 93 Previa, stickshift 4-banger, rear wheel drive. Thing totally sold me on vehicles with a bunch of room inside. Totally spoiled me for small vehicles, but when it died, the only vehicle that compared in overall utility was a large SUV. The added capability made it a no-brainer and I would never give go back, but I still have a soft spot for minivans. Had a helluva a lot of good use and times out of mine.


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## TheGweed (Jan 30, 2010)

Skooks said:


> I really don't get the point of this thread. If a minivan works for you then great. If not then drive something else. Why would you care what anyone else thinks about your choice of vehicles?


ding ding ding ding ding...we have a winnah!

every time i see this thread pop up to the top i think "what minivan stigma, i ain't got no minivan stigma"...i wouldn't drive one, but i don't care if anyone else does.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

SWriverstone said:


> Some folks here are making some ludicrous arguments-like minivan towing capacity sucks and offroad capability is lame.
> 
> Umm...that's NO different than me saying "the best SUV on the planet has **** for range if it can't go 600 miles on a single tank." What's that you say? You don't NEED to go 600 miles on a single tank?
> 
> ...


My Excursion will go over 700 miles on a tank...


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Extended range aftermarket tank doesn't count 

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tigris99 said:


> Extended range aftermarket tank doesn't count
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


My last Suburban would also go over 700 easy, stock.
Current one is only good for around 500 since they shrunk the fuel tank.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Oh ya I forgot they put in massive tanks in some of them. Hate to pay the cost to fill it up. It may take 2 tanks in our vans to go that far but each tank is nice and cheap.

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tigris99 said:


> Oh ya I forgot they put in massive tanks in some of them. Hate to pay the cost to fill it up. It may take 2 tanks in our vans to go that far but each tank is nice and cheap.


:skep:

You should just put in 1 gallon at a time; gas will hardly cost you anything at all. Or better yet, 1/2 gallon at a time. Think of the savings!

I remember a few times telling gas station attendants to 'put in $150 of the cheap stuff' when gas was pricey.

"Excuse me, did you say one hundred fifty?" :eekster:


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Well to go 650 miles cost me $82 in fuel over this last weekend in our Honda Odyssey going to St Louis and back. Plus $20 for the 5 days of running all around the ST Louis area between taking the kids to do things and go to area trails. Around 800 miles for just over $100 in fuel.

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## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Skooks said:


> I really don't get the point of this thread. If a minivan works for you then great. If not then drive something else. Why would you care what anyone else thinks about your choice of vehicles?


The point of posts like this-and about 90% of everything else in the forum-is to:
• waste or kill time
• have fun expressing opinions
• laugh at other peoples' comments

Not everything in a forum has to have a "point" beyond sheer entertainment-that's what this is.  If all forum posts were strictly educational-with every post backed by citations-then MTBR would be nothing more than a dull online course, LOL.

And if people (including myself) make absurd or stupid statements, so what? It's the interwebz. It's just entertainment. (Just like "if people don't like minivans, so what?") 

Scott


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## ApolloMike (Nov 5, 2014)

SWriverstone said:


> The point of posts like this-and about 90% of everything else in the forum-is to:
> • waste or kill time
> • have fun expressing opinions
> • laugh at other peoples' comments
> ...


And this thread has done just that

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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

tigris99 said:


> Extended range aftermarket tank doesn't count
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Huh? Comes stock with a 44 gallon tank. Diesel is cheaper than gas right now. It may only get 16.3 mpg but that's the only thing I give up to a minivan.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

You missed I posted I had forgotten some of the big SUVs come with bigger tanks.

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

If this was the case then the stigma wouldn't exist and the market for SUVs and the smaller versions there of wouldn't be there like it is. Also companies wouldn't have done away with their minivans.

Do some research cause the stigma is actually there with most normal people. That's why you don't see high schoolers driving them. Their "soccer mom" or just "mommy vans". I caught crap from coworkers when I started driving my caravan instead of my car. Had many friends ask "when did you get a mommy van, r you a soccer mom now?"

I used to be that way myself. But kids, bikes, trail work, rather save fuel costs and use that money to do more stuff. ONLY cause I have no need for towing capacity beyond a small pop up nor load capacity. So it works.

My thing is stigma of any vehicle like any bike needs to die. We all use what we have for what we need or like.

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I don't care, I always laugh about it. Cause their comments show their insecurities. I brag about it to a sense cause I open the rear:

1-2 bikes (caravan holds 29er and road or fat alone, Honda it doesn't matter, probably fit all 3), all my gear, lights, first aid kit and whatever else plus my trail work tools.

And then of course all the room for random "naughtiness" in total privacy.

I was just pointing out that the stigma is there cause so many people have the issues with them. I could give a rats ass less what they think. I'm married so no need to impress anyone these days.

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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

One of each works great for me. Right now I'm driving the SUV for longer trips. 25 mpg and diesel is cheaper , I just wish it had the room the sienna does.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

That's the nice thing about diesel when it's not way over the price of gas, way more fuel efficient in larger vehicles.

I have come to notice that the last few years of minivans is when the mileage gap has closed a far bit. Too much extra crap in a minivan. Thought my short body caravan weighs right about 4000 lbs.... Hate to see what my Honda weighs (sadly it won't ever make a trip to the dump so I'll never know.)

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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

There's a car for anyone. Hell, there's people digging the looks of the old Fiat Multipla (which I can't look at without risking eye cancer). I'm slowly getting out of the age, where I need my small M135i and start to consider a Skoda Superb station or similar. Guess I become old


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

tigris99 said:


> That's the nice thing about diesel when it's not way over the price of gas, way more fuel efficient in larger vehicles.
> 
> I have come to notice that the last few years of minivans is when the mileage gap has closed a far bit. Too much extra crap in a minivan. Thought my short body caravan weighs right about 4000 lbs.... Hate to see what my Honda weighs (sadly it won't ever make a trip to the dump so I'll never know.)
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Even better, I had a turbo diesel minivan in Korea. Top it off, it was a 5 speed. My Toyota town Ace I had in Japan was also a 5 speed. Kinda wish my Sienna was available in a stick.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

SUVs remain 2+ ton monsters with the aerodynamics of a brick, though. Stations should be faring better and usually do not provide less space, but further down, closer to the road .... which some don't like because of loss of overview, less strong in accidents and harder on the knees of the kneebroken (not joking here .. I know a few guys with SUVs due to easy in and out only).


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

stochastic said:


> This is simply not true.




Große Cw-Werte-Sammlung von Autos und ... zum Mitmachen

Check out the Cw*F column, drag coefficient multiplied with frontal face area ... approximatly giving an idea of stream resistance. Audi Q7, BMW X5, Mercedes G etc. All up in the 1's, while normal stations are more in the 0.6es. X5 weight 2.2 tons, Q7 2 tons, Merc G 2.6 tons, Volvo XC90 2.1 tons... Larger stations like a BMW5 1.6 tons.

Of course that's just a small selection of some popular SUVs around here.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

And even my small carvan (short wheelbase, all but front seats removed) are still almost 2 tons. Scale at landfill said 4000 lbs on the nose but it's not that accurate (bet it reads high) but still a little minivan is freaking heavy for an empty box on wheels

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

There's A LOT more to it than that though. A lot of advancements in engine and fuel delivery design. Those help for in town but do little on the highway (except better gearing) but advancements in fuel injection and air intake systems is a big boost overall.

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

That was the trick, increase engine performance so it generated the power to cruise and only require low rpm to do it. That was always the big plus to diesel. High torque to be able to maintain higher gearing for highway speeds. Can't have higher gearing without power to maintain it.

Now they need to get that tech into smaller vehicles. My Honda is pretty sweet like that. Joys of V-tec engines. Ran 30 miles to meet up for GFBD and back, maybe 5 in gas.



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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ya that it has, tech has been around a lot longer than most realize (I've been in the auto industry my entire life) and it's not just what you think is the reason tech has been held back.

Oil profits, manufacturer profits (don't have something new to bs ppl into buying every year) and so on. Thats why I'm bigger into Honda. They released the tech decades ago, just fine tuned it over the years. Toyota not far behind. Others like American companies and such just make stuff cheap and pay to market the junk down everyone's throats. Couldnt give me a free new Chevy or Ford, I'd give it back. Anything American in the last 5-7 yrs has a lot of cool tech, but built to fail and cost retarded amount to fix just so you'll buy a new car.

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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)




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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Activate your inner monkey?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

My fat ass would cave my roof in I went all "ape" on my vans lol.

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## studiddy (Feb 27, 2007)

tigris99 said:


> That reminds me:
> 
> We just bought a 2007 honda Odyssey. Thing has got so much room in the back with the third row folded down into the back.


I got one from my grandfather when he died, and at first I wasn't sure what to think. Given that my other car is a convertible Chevelle built for auto-x I did need something more practical, but a van wasn't exactly what I had in mind. After popping out one of the second-row seats and folding down the back however I found that it was basically perfect for my needs. I've been driving all over this half of the country for "work" and I can take bikes, camping stuff, all my gear and still have room to bring people and hanging dress clothes. I've also ended up sleeping in it a couple times when on call (added brake controller and towing things but pulling a trailer isn't always ideal). Not a cool vehicle, but if I cared about image I'd grease my hair up and move to Miami or just drive my other car. Fortunately I'm not in high school anymore so it's not really a concern. Full disclosure there are two suvs in the house but I've never had much reason to ask to use them. If there is a stigma that's fine, doesn't affect me. Shouldn't affect anyone I wouldn't think.


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## lond (Jan 14, 2017)

my minivan only can fit 2 people and 2 bikes:sad::sad::sad:


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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

lond said:


> my minivan only can fit 2 people and 2 bikes:sad::sad::sad:
> 
> View attachment 1123923


What kind of minivan is that where the rear door opens sideways instead of up and with such a tiny rear side window? Looking at your license plate I suspect you're not in North America. Oh, I just noticed the steering wheel in on the right so I'm guessing you're in the UK or somewhere down under which explains it. We have huge minivans (oxymoron I know) here in NA.


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## lond (Jan 14, 2017)

tonyride1 said:


> What kind of minivan is that where the rear door opens sideways instead of up and with such a tiny rear side window? Looking at your license plate I suspect you're not in North America. Oh, I just noticed the steering wheel in on the right so I'm guessing you're in the UK or somewhere down under which explains it. We have huge minivans (oxymoron I know) here in NA.


it has been registered as minivan dunno why
btw i am from malaysia


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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

lond said:


> it has been registered as minivan dunno why
> btw i am from malaysia


That explains it.


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## ladljon (Nov 30, 2011)

My mini....


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## adam728 (Jan 25, 2006)

Man, this thread has been around a while. 

When it started, we owned a 1998 Chevy Astro. Wife hated it. Hated how it drove. Hated the gas mileage. Hated how dated it was. Hated being driving a lame old minivan. 

So we traded it in and got a GMC Terrain. She loved it. Smaller, more nimble, easier to park, better mileage, much more modern, more features, etc. 

About 4 weeks after we got it she hung her head and uttered the words "I miss having a minivan". The convince of sliding doors. The space. The low buy-in (compared to used Tahoes/Yukons and the like). 

She was stuck for about a year and a half in the Terrain, then I took it over, sold my car, and we got a 2015 Town and Country. She sometimes misses how the Terrain drives, but overall loves the van. WAY easier with kids getting loaded/unloaded. Tons of room when we go on a trip with everything in the world tossed in back. And a metric crapload cheaper than a comparable year/mileage Yukon (which she thought she'd love a few years earlier, until driving one. Very uncomfortable with captaining a land tanker that size). 

Yes, minivans aren't for everyone. And yes, there are many things they cannot do that other vehicles can (I wouldn't be buying one with intentions of driving rock strewn trails or towing a 8,000 lb camper). But I would guess that a large number of people driving things like Acadias, Edges, Journeys, etc would find a minivan more useful. But too many are stuck on the "soccer mom" thing. Even though when we go to soccer it's about 20% minivans, 20% pickups, and 60% small/midsize SUV's. So I'd argue those SUV's are the real "soccer mom" mobiles....


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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

I have a 2014 Sienna SE. I love the look on peoples faces when they try to race past me for a merge or from a light and I either keep up or stomp them. No soccer mom BS here. I love my van and my kids are adults. I will always have one if they always make one. Cant beat the room, convenience and awesome mileage (if you keep your foot off the floor). Also I have never been pulled over in this or my previous vans unlike every car I have had. 

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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

I know a couple who rides tandem bikes (both road and mountain) and they rigged the interior of their minivan with fork mounts where they're able to put their tandem bikes inside with the front wheels off. They have 2 adult kids so they don't need the back seats for passengers and they couldn't give a flying fudge what people think about the minivan. Oh, and they pull a small camper behind it.


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## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

KevinGT said:


> The two greatest marketing campaigns in the history of the automotive world are the US Pickup Truck and the US SUV.
> 
> Companies have brilliantly convinced American males that driving a pickup makes them more of a man...even if they spend 99% of their time alone in traffic heading to their job as assistant manager at Best Buy. 13 miles per gallon and a 200 year old suspension system but it's MANLY the one day a year when they need a sheet of drywall from Home Depot. "Good thing I bought this truck, honey!" LOL.
> .


My new Dodge 1500 V6 crew cab gets 23 mpg average 28 mpg at 70 on the freeway. I can carry 6 people and 6 bikes and as much gear as everyone needs. And it is more comfortable and rides better than most of the other vehicles I have owned.


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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

armii said:


> My new Dodge 1500 V6 crew cab gets 23 mpg average 28 mpg at 70 on the freeway. I can carry 6 people and 6 bikes and as much gear as everyone needs. And it is more comfortable and rides better than most of the other vehicles I have owned.


I rented what appears to be the same truck (Ram 1500 V6 Crew cab) but mine was a 4x4 for a week and probably about 350-400 miles of driving with mostly highway miles and my fuel economy wasn't that good. At highway speeds (~75 mph) I was averaging about 22-23 mpg and around town I was getting maybe 18-20 and I don't drive it like a sports car and it was just me with no other passengers or gear. As far as comfort goes, that's really subjective and I don't know what previous vehicles you've owned but I've ridden in much more comfortable vehicles.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Toyota Estima 2.4L with the back seats pulled out and fork mounts installed and we get about 30mpg no matter what we do.


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## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

tonyride1 said:


> I rented what appears to be the same truck (Ram 1500 V6 Crew cab) but mine was a 4x4 for a week and probably about 350-400 miles of driving with mostly highway miles and my fuel economy wasn't that good. At highway speeds (~75 mph) I was averaging about 22-23 mpg and around town I was getting maybe 18-20 and I don't drive it like a sports car and it was just me with no other passengers or gear. As far as comfort goes, that's really subjective and I don't know what previous vehicles you've owned but I've ridden in much more comfortable vehicles.


The stiffer suspension and extra drive train makes a significant difference for comfort and MPG. As far as comfort, the only cars I have owned that were more comfortable are not worth much for hauling bikes. for that matter the only two ever that were as or more comfortable on long trips were my Acura Integra, and my Acura TL. Even my older Honda Accord was only fair on a long trips. I have also had an Olds 88, a Buick Century, a Nissan pickup, a Fiat Spider, couple of Civics, an Element, a couple of Chevy pickups, a couple of Jeeps, a Trans AM, a Corvette.


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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

Pretty hard to believe an Integra or TL could ever be more comfortable than an 88 or Century which are both built and sold and luxury cars and soft floaty rides for long trips. I used to sell cars for a living and have driven literally hundred of different vehicles and even a Denali or Escalade are less comfortable than an 88. Maybe the seat in your truck fits you better but absolutely no way is a low end Ram pick up riding better than any Olds for that matter unless it was bolted to the roof of the Olds. I'm glad you like trucks and love yours but come on.

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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

Like I said, comfort is subjective. Although I didn't find the ride or comfort of the Ram 1500 I rented to be offensive, it is certainly not the most comfortable ride I've had.. not even close. But that's just me. So unless you're always driving around with 6 people in the truck with bikes in the back, having it as a daily driver with just you in it is like walking around with an empty suitcase. But again, that's just me.


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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

For sure. Comfort or fit is as subjective for vehicles as it is for bikes but when comparing mini vans to trucks (which is what we are really doing here) I would never use ride comfort as part of why I prefered one to the other as they are like comparing apples to orangutans. Just too different. Fuel economy, cargo room and seating for sure. Another thing that will alter views on this subject is where you live and drive. I live in the city so even when going to country trails my van seldom sees gravel roads. If I lived somewhere where I drove primarily dirt roads I may not like my van so much and the ground clearance a truck offers would sway me in that direction for sure. 

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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

I've never owned a vehicle as comfortable for long trips as my 2011 F150 super crew. I'm 6'4" tall so in a lot of cars I'm leaned back so as to not hit my head with seat slid back so my knees aren't bouncing off the dash the entire trip. My wife drives a 2016 Subaru Outback, it's a damn fine car but the seats just aren't road trip comfortable. If kid #2 happens while we still have the black lab mix, a minivan is probably in our future, and since I'm the stay at home dad.... ugh. Should make for a good bike hauler though. Would be nice to have everything locked up without people realizing you've got thousands in bike stuff on you...


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## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

Terranaut said:


> Pretty hard to believe an Integra or TL could ever be more comfortable than an 88 or Century which are both built and sold and luxury cars and soft floaty rides for long trips. I used to sell cars for a living and have driven literally hundred of different vehicles and even a Denali or Escalade are less comfortable than an 88. Maybe the seat in your truck fits you better but absolutely no way is a low end Ram pick up riding better than any Olds for that matter unless it was bolted to the roof of the Olds. I'm glad you like trucks and love yours but come on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Well both the 88 and the Century were older, and the truck is brand new. But after owning an Olds and a Buick, I have no plans of ever buying one again. My corvette is more comfortable to me than either of them were.


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## TooSteep (Oct 6, 2012)

*Lol*



Silentfoe said:


> I have 5 kids. I HATE minivans. My SUV does everything a mini van can do and much more. I pay for that extra utility with lower gas mileage. That's my understood tradeoff. *Yours is lack of offroad-ability*, towing and foul weather performance (even if a mini van has awd, it's shitty awd). I'll take one tradeoff vs three (at least).





Silentfoe said:


> Huh? Comes stock with a 44 gallon tank. Diesel is cheaper than gas right now. It may only get 16.3 mpg but that's the only thing I give up to a minivan.
> View attachment 1108001


Clearly a superior White Rim setup ...


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Whoever said this is for White Rim? Are you implying that a mini van could? Because that's hilarious. I have a Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon for White Rim days.

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## TooSteep (Oct 6, 2012)

Relax. I was reading the thread and found it funny that you were pulling around a McMansion RV after earlier arguing that offroad ability made a minivan a nonstarter. I had it in my head that you were talking about expedition setups capable of going interesting places.

Personally, I want Toyota to make one of these:
Toyota creates awesome off-road Sienna - Autoblog


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I also said towing. You highlighted off road ability. That said, they are both things a minivan seriously falls short on.

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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

Silentfoe said:


> I also said towing. You highlighted off road ability. That said, they are both things a minivan seriously falls short on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Years ago my dad and I were having a beer on his porch ( farm house) and we heard music. Looked down the lane and a Ramcharger full of kids was taking a bat to our mailbox. Dad and I hopped i to his...wait for it... Safari van and took off after the Ramcharger. We chased it a few concession roads over and they headed into the bush. My Dad was so pissed off he went right in after them. With rear wheel drive and running boards ( ripped off the driver side) we eventually got close enough that Dad bailed out of the still rolling van and crawled into the drivers open window. He pulled the keys. The rest ran out the passenger side but we had the driver. My father had this kids father pay for the mail box and all of the damage to the van which was surprisingly just the running board and crushed exhaust. Not saying vans are equal to trucks offroad but this thread just reminded me of that so I thought I would share.

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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Awesome 

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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

Hell yeah that's badass. 

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## AlexBoyKing (Apr 6, 2017)

@Weinerts - Minivans are awesome but your friends sound pretty cool too. "Giant Vagina" haha that's pretty funny. I'm surprised ppl still make fun of mini vans though. I thought that was something people did like 10 years ago. That would be perfect.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

ladljon said:


> My mini....


How did I miss this?!?!? '55 Nomad! That's a bike hauler! You need surf boards too, though.


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## ladljon (Nov 30, 2011)

chuckha62 said:


> How did I miss this?!?!? '55 Nomad! That's a bike hauler! You need surf boards too, though.


I do have a surf board, but my nephew has it, and I took the rack off the top. Wish I had a photo of my 69 Chevy Kingswood, now that was a train...


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

Rented a SUV last week, a '17 Explorer which was pretty BALLER with how it was equipped. Drove pretty nice other than feeling like a big disconnected (road/steering feel) box with crap visibility all around. It's definitely not a driver's driver but was mostly comfortable for the 2000 miles I drove it.

For the size weight which are very close it has nowhere near the cargo space and functionality of the minivan. It simply would not fit my needs, and my needs are simply to carry two bikes fully assembled, gear, and leave some room for me to sleep.

Ironically, its a V6 FWD unibody platform JUST LIKE a minivan! Just with less functionality. I guess if all you need is a really big car that can drive over bumpy roads nicely (it is good for that), then there you go. 

I did like the Explorer, i just wish it drove in a manner that had you feel more 'connected' to what was going on.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I posted this in the Wagon thread, but it fits here also. I picked up this 2009 R320 Bluetek 4Matic. It's classified as a wagon, minivan, crossover, SUV... Whatever. Having owned it for over ten months now, we love it! It's getting 28 MPG hwy and the best road car I've ever driven. I'm admittedly biased, but the lines are nicer than any minivan I've ever seen.


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## offroadcmpr (Apr 21, 2012)

zephxiii said:


> Rented a SUV last week, a '17 Explorer which was pretty BALLER with how it was equipped. Drove pretty nice other than feeling like a big disconnected (road/steering feel) box with crap visibility all around. It's definitely not a driver's driver but was mostly comfortable for the 2000 miles I drove it.
> 
> For the size weight which are very close it has nowhere near the cargo space and functionality of the minivan. It simply would not fit my needs, and my needs are simply to carry two bikes fully assembled, gear, and leave some room for me to sleep.
> 
> ...


We recently had to purchase a new family car. Looked at some SUV's and minivans. The minivans were way better for the price and storage capacity. I don't think people realize how by how much though.

For example, lets look at the ford explorer. It's difficult to compare trims across different makes, so I'm just going to use the cheapest trim that offers leather seats. The cheapest one with leather seats starts at $41k
Length: 198
Height: 70
Width 78.9

Now lets look at a Toyota Sienna. The cheapest one with leather seats is around $36k.
Length: 200
Height:70.5 (with roof rails)
Width: 78.7

So overall size is very similar. The sienna is 2 inches longer, but similar height and width. Sienna is a bit cheaper too.

However when you look at the interior dimensions things look a bit different.

Ford Explorer
Cargo behind 3rd row:21
Cargo behind 2nd row:43.9
Cargo behind first row: 81.7

Toyota Sienna
Cargo behind 3rd row:39.1
Cargo behind 2nd row: 87.1
Cargo behind first row: 150

So the Sienna has almost double the amount of space behind each row. All for a vehicle that is only 2 inches longer and costs $5k less.

In order to get a similar interior volume of the minivan while keeping the leather seats, you have to move up to the Expedition limited EL. This is a vehicle that costs $58k ($22k more than the minivan!), and is almost 2 feet longer at 220 inches in length.

So for some the added clearance and better 4WD system of an SUV may make sense, but you are giving up a lot of interior space to do that. And to get that interior space back you have to spend a lot more money and end up with a much longer vehicle.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

offroadcmpr said:


> We recently had to purchase a new family car. Looked at some SUV's and minivans. The minivans were way better for the price and storage capacity. I don't think people realize how by how much though.
> 
> For example, lets look at the ford explorer. It's difficult to compare trims across different makes, so I'm just going to use the cheapest trim that offers leather seats. The cheapest one with leather seats starts at $41k
> Length: 198
> ...


Our 2nd Sienna is the increasingly less rare (at least here) SE that's lowered and has sportier steering. The superior handling was noticeable in testing and when we drive SUV and CarUV types. The AWD Sienna still handles well for a minivan but we chose against it.

The stigma or reputation won't change with some but the Sienna SE is one of the nicest vehicles we've ever had. It and our Outback made our high trim turbo Volvo wagon a bit of a joke by comparison. The Siennas look much the same year to year but the redesigned dashboard and near 300 HP engine make them better than ever.


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## offroadcmpr (Apr 21, 2012)

bitflogger said:


> Our 2nd Sienna is the increasingly less rare (at least here) SE that's lowered and has sportier steering. The superior handling was noticeable in testing and when we drive SUV and CarUV types. The AWD Sienna still handles well for a minivan but we chose against it.
> 
> The stigma or reputation won't change with some but the Sienna SE is one of the nicest vehicles we've ever had. It and our Outback made our high trim turbo Volvo wagon a bit of a joke by comparison. The Siennas look much the same year to year but the redesigned dashboard and near 300 HP engine make them better than ever.


I see a pretty even mix of XLE's and SE's in my area. We ended up with a 2017 LE. Just couldn't justify spending the extra money for the leather and such.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Here's another 1up for a minivan.

We decided to camp last night, last minute decision since we had to be up early for an event today. Overnight was going to be too cold for tent for the wife and little one. 

3rd row in out Odyssey is stow and go, pulled out the passenger side of second row (so I had enough room), collapsed middle in put it in storage in the floor, loaded up and gone.

We needed better padding over the floor but worked out well. All 3 of us slept comfortably, bikes and cooler locked to the bike rack (which is locked to the van hitch).

Not an SUV out there that would work as a place to sleep for me, wife and 3yr old. Not when I can't sleep sitting up for crap.

We don't need to tow a house on wheels, building a basic tear drop inspired (squared out version) mini camper to be a hard sided tent on wheels. Don't need to go off-road (worst is gravel, big deal) so literally no point here. Even in snow van does just as good as an SUV. All 4wd does is you can accelerate faster and get stuck a lot worse.

Big vehicles have off-road and towing capacity but that's it. And I'll never understand the point in big "campers". FYI, they aren't campers. Your bringing your house to pretend your camping ;p

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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

bitflogger said:


> Our 2nd Sienna is the increasingly less rare (at least here) SE that's lowered and has sportier steering. The superior handling was noticeable in testing and when we drive SUV and CarUV types. The AWD Sienna still handles well for a minivan but we chose against it.
> 
> The stigma or reputation won't change with some but the Sienna SE is one of the nicest vehicles we've ever had. It and our Outback made our high trim turbo Volvo wagon a bit of a joke by comparison. The Siennas look much the same year to year but the redesigned dashboard and near 300 HP engine make them better than ever.


We have the SE. Love it!! Funny how noticeable the handling and steering differences are compared to the other models. Around here they are about a 50/50 split with other models. No shortages of the SE in Ontario.

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RAKC Ind said:


> Not an SUV out there that would work as a place to sleep for me, wife and 3yr old. Not when I can't sleep sitting up for crap.


Sure there is; got one in my driveway right now.

If you've got more flat floor space than a Suburban, it's by no more than a handful of inches I'm sure. Sheets of plywood lay down flat no problem; plenty of room for a nap. Used to camp with the dog and my son in there all the time. :thumbsup:


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

My Excursion could park your minivan inside of it. I'll bet you could sleep in there. Minivans have their place but off road and camping is stretching it. 

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## kamaaina1 (Dec 16, 2012)

One B/A Sienna!


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

Silentfoe said:


> My Excursion could park your minivan inside of it. I'll bet you could sleep in there. Minivans have their place but off road and camping is stretching it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yeah, and you can put Excursion inside of bigass box truck, but nobody wants to be driving that **** around everyday lol.

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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

You can't camp in a minivan? Why not?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> My Excursion could park your minivan inside of it. I'll bet you could sleep in there. Minivans have their place but off road and camping is stretching it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Honda Odyssey And Toyota Sienna both have more cargo capacity than your Excursion.

Dodge Caravan is only about 3 cubic feet shy.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

fitek said:


> You can't camp in a minivan?


Yeah, that one is news to just about everyone that camps and has seen a minivan.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

I've slept in an Excursion EL and it was as roomy as the Sienna, for a lot more money. It was a lot harder to park though, and got worse mileage.

More spacing between passengers though, so if you eat a lot of kapusta, your fellow travelers might prefer the Excursion...


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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

fitek said:


> I've slept in an Excursion EL and it was as roomy as the Sienna, for a lot more money. It was a lot harder to park though, and got worse mileage.
> 
> More spacing between passengers though, so if you eat a lot of kapusta, your fellow travelers might prefer the Excursion...


Maybe that's why he has an Excursion... he eats a lot of kapustas... what ever that is.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Kapusta is already plural. IF you buy a Sienna vs Excursion, you will have a lot of money left over for kapusta. And you'll never get worms. You sold on the Sienna yet, Silentfoe?


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## TooSteep (Oct 6, 2012)

*One man's treasure ...*



chuckha62 said:


> I posted this in the Wagon thread, but it fits here also. I picked up this 2009 R320 Bluetek 4Matic. It's classified as a wagon, minivan, crossover, SUV... Whatever. Having owned it for over ten months now, we love it! It's getting 28 MPG hwy and the best road car I've ever driven. I'm admittedly biased, but the lines are nicer than any minivan I've ever seen.


I look at the windows/window lines on that and shudder. The auto industry has traded off visibility in order to increase airflow and airbags. The windows are so high and so short, that you can't see anything. And the extreme slope of the front windshield means driving at night in rain is a guaranteed glare-induced visibility nightmare.

Maybe it's a conspiracy - make the visibility terrible so you will crash more - but you won't die in the crash since there are so many airbags - so you'll be alive to buy another car when the first one is destroyed ...


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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

I checked out the R-Class also and my biggest gripe with it is the length of the rear doors. I've never seen doors that long and it makes it difficult to open wide enough to get in and out of easily.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

TooSteep said:


> I look at the windows/window lines on that and shudder. The auto industry has traded off visibility in order to increase airflow and airbags. The windows are so high and so short, that you can't see anything. And the extreme slope of the front windshield means driving at night in rain is a guaranteed glare-induced visibility nightmare.


I'm with ya on the visibility issue. I'm never trusting that I can see everything. As for the raining at night thing... That's not been an issue whatsoever and we have had more than our fair share of rain this winter!



tonyride1 said:


> I checked out the R-Class also and my biggest gripe with it is the length of the rear doors. I've never seen doors that long and it makes it difficult to open wide enough to get in and out of easily.


You are correct. They are big and open real wide to allow easy access, providing there's not a car next to you. 

Haven't taken a Winter Tahoe trip in it yet, but it's supposedly very capable. Next Winter, I guess.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

kapusta said:


> Yeah, that one is news to just about everyone that camps and has seen a minivan.


Yeah, love camping in my minivan:


__
http://instagr.am/p/BI_QxzLAPhl/

Works out quite brilliantly.

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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

kapusta said:


> Honda Odyssey And Toyota Sienna both have more cargo capacity than your Excursion.
> 
> Dodge Caravan is only about 3 cubic feet shy.


Yes and no. With seats removed, yes. But most of that is height. With seats in, not even close. And I can pull a trailer so wth would I ever take out the seats?

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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

My odyssey can tow a trailer too as can a Sienna. Building a "tear drop inspired" camper to pull behind it. 3000lb towing capacity on my Odyssey. Same transmission as is used in the Ridgeline truck. Just heavy van, unibody design and front wheel drive.

Don't need to take seats out, they simply disappear into the floor, at least in my Odyssey, not sure on a Sienna. And excursion doesn't have 8ft length behind the seats either. And excursions I've seen also have 3rd row available. 

Your gaining off-road and higher towing capacity for higher costs and way less mileage. So it's what your willing to spend and what you need.

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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

Most people don't need much towing capability, if any at all. Even fewer need off road capabilities. About half the country don't even see snow, or enough to justify a 4x4 or AWD. Even then a decent set of winter tires on a FWD vehicle can be just as capable, if not more, than an AWD with all season tires. So for most of the country for pure cargo hauling capacity it is hard to argue against a minivan as long as you don't let your macho ego get in the way.


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## ApolloMike (Nov 5, 2014)

Can we just put this to rest)

A minivan won't tow my 7500 pound gvwr trailer. I used that trailer at a race last weekend, and will again next weekend. So I drive a full size truck. 
If you want to camp in your minivan, go right ahead. I don't care. I will camp in my trailer, with full galley, head, and bedroom. 
You can enjoy yourself in your vehicle, and I will enjoy myself in mine. This thread has run itself as far as it can. Minivan people like minivans. And that's fine. Truck people like trucks. And that's fine. 

The world is good. I will see you at the next race, no matter what vehicle you showed up in. 


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> Yes and no. With seats removed, yes. But most of that is height. With seats in, not even close. And I can pull a trailer so wth would I ever take out the seats?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


If you plan to sleep in either one you need to take the seats out (actually, in the caravan they just fold under). And that extra height makes camping in it much more comfortable. Not to mention easier access in and out.

But if you would rather drive an Excursion towing a trailer instead, have at. Sounds like an expensive gas guzzling PITA to me, but whatever floats your boat.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

kapusta said:


> If you plan to sleep in either one you need to take the seats out (actually, in the caravan they just fold under). And that extra height makes camping in it much more comfortable. Not to mention easier access in and out.
> 
> But if you would rather drive an Excursion towing a trailer instead, have at. Sounds like an expensive gas guzzling PITA to me, but whatever floats your boat.


Yeah, I'll pull a trailer if I want to sleep. My Excursion gets 16.1 mpg with diesel, which is cheaper than gas right now. Not too bad. Glad you guys like your minivans. I had one once. I moved on.

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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

No question, a minivan CAN pull a small trailer, but I'll use my 3/4t Suburban to pull something I can be comfortable in. I do wish the 'burb was available with a Duramax though.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> Yeah, I'll pull a trailer if I want to sleep. My Excursion gets 16.1 mpg with diesel, which is cheaper than gas right now. Not too bad. Glad you guys like your minivans. I had one once. I moved on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


If I ever get to the point that I need a 3-1/2 ton truck pulling a trailer to go camping, I'm just gonna throw in the towel, get a big RV and pull in to a Walmart parking lot with the rest of them.

16 mpg is poor mileage (you must drive gently, average for the diesels on Fuelly is around 14), and you are not getting that pulling a trailer.

There is a reason Ford dropped this truck over a decade ago: After the novelty of "Biggest SUV On The Planet" wore off, nobody wanted it.... and nobody has since bothered to follow in its footsteps. An evolutionary dead end.

Minivans, OTOH, just keep plugging away. When something this uncool persists for this long, there is a darn good reason.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Actually reverse situation here. I grew up and learned a minivan was a smarter choice.

I'm not a construction contractor, I don't go climb mountains on the back roads or take fire roads through the desert to a big truck is pointless. Waste of gas money.

Also honestly I've always made fun of people with big camper trailers... That isn't camping. Towing a mini house on wheels isn't camping, it's like trying to pretend you are from your living room 

At least for us, our mini camper will be plenty comfortable. It's a hard sided tent with wheels. Soft matress to sleep on, no dealing with water finding it's way in if it rains.

And don't have to use half a pay check just in gas to tow it . 16mpg on a good day when diesel is a little cheaper doesn't add up. Your 12mpg lower than me. I can go almost twice as far on a single tank of gas.

It's what you like and need. But too many have this issue with minivans which is truly misplaced.

How often do you go climbing fire roads, Jeep trails etc? Never with a big camper.

Even what is called an "SUV" these days (excursion and ones of it's time actually were true SUVs) are nothing but "posers" as vehicles are concerned. Most can't handle true off-road without breaking stuff.

It's because the SUV is now what the minivan used to be considered. Nothing more than a urban soccer mom vehicle. Very sad anymore. At least you still have a real one.

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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

16mpg? Wut? The Grand Caravan I just rented for work avg 26mpg with 5 adults on a highway trip, with 280hp. 

Even the Explorer got similar, but it is V6 FWD platform as well. 

Granted if u wanna tow something big, having something big is fine though. The only thing I'd tow is an Airstrem or something retro as standard campers Interiors are poopy looking. 



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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

There are definitely situations where either a minivan or an SUV each have their own time. Someone above compared camping in a minivan to camping in an excursion with a trailer. Not apples to apples. Another win for the minivan is Monday when I drive it to work unloaded and empty I will not be chugging along at 14mpg or taking up 3 spots when I park it. The Siennas second row seats do not stow like the Dodge does. This was the only thing I liked better about the Dodge. Everything thing else was better on the Toyota (imho of course). But when pulled out I can put a stack of drywall in the back with room to spare. Also bikes fit upright inside the van. Goodluck doing that in most SUVs.

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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> Toyota Estima 2.4L with the back seats pulled out and fork mounts installed and we get about 30mpg no matter what we do.


I've seen those outside the US. They have some styling slightly like the Sienna in US but renting 4 cyl minivans outside the US and getting in and driving the near 300 HP late model Sienna when you return and drive home from the airport is a shock. No doubt they make the Sienna for a different market. The US Toyota with items on roof, family of 3 and dog drops to low 20s but will top 30 MPG if the aerodynamics aren't messed with.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

2017 Sienna AWD 18c/24h
2017 Suburban 16c/23h

Some of you guys are out of your minds with the mileage comparisons. 
Basically even.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> 2017 Sienna AWD 18c/24h
> 2017 Suburban 16c/23h
> 
> Some of you guys are out of your minds with the mileage comparisons.
> Basically even.


Your not comparing apples to apples.

That suburban rating is in 2wd (version with 4wd capable but rated in 2wd mode driving is 15/22)

The sienna is in 4wd basically full time. Put that suburban in 4wd and drive around. Fuel mileage just dropped by at least 3-5MPG.

Now apples to apples the 2wd sienna is 19/27

So a 4mpg difference on the highway. Imagine how fast that 4mpg adds up in the dent gas makes in the wallet.

Plus the suburban is a $20k higher starting price.

Big SUVS are nice if you live where you can go off road or have a lot to tow. But those are the only 2 places in a logical sense they can compare or beat a minivan.

New suburbans are gorgeous though. Too bad Chevy has their heads up their butts on making reliable trucks the last few years (just like ford)

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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> 2017 Sienna AWD 18c/24h
> 2017 Suburban 16c/23h
> 
> Some of you guys are out of your minds with the mileage comparisons.
> Basically even.


Not a very good comparison, because the Sienna has 28 cubic feet more room inside.

I think when people talk about the better mileage, they mean for the amount of cargo capacity.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

RAKC Ind said:


> The sienna is in 4wd basically full time.


This is hilarious. There is a massive difference between 4wd and Awd. The Sienna is absolutely not a 4x4.

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RAKC Ind said:


> Your not comparing apples to apples.
> 
> That suburban rating is in 2wd (version with 4wd capable but rated in 2wd mode driving is 15/22)
> 
> The sienna is in 4wd basically full time. Put that suburban in 4wd and drive around. Fuel mileage just dropped by at least 3-5MPG.


Why in the world would anyone drive around in 4WD all the time to lower their gas mileage on purpose? C'mon - you're stretching here...in real world driving, the difference is a few miles a gallon. BFD. People make it sound like there's some huge difference and there just isn't.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Silentfoe said:


> This is hilarious. There is a massive difference between 4wd and Awd. The Sienna is absolutely not a 4x4.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Actually I regret to inform you there is only 2 differences.

Only 2 differences are:

AWD is full time power to front and rear axles.

AWD has an intermediate differential that regulates power distribution between the front and rear wheels as its not 50/50. Depending on the vehicle design it can be 40/60 or 70/30 or more modern system using electronic traction control can adjust the power ratio.

4x4 have no intermediate differential usually (some systems actually have 2wd, awd, and 4x4 selections) and can be selected between 2 and 4.

All the components are there either way. Rotating masses and extra weight are still there

Still not an apples to apples comparison by any means. To make a fair comparison would be a standard sienna or driving the suburban in 4wd.

And a few mpg do the math. 4mpg difference. Say a 20g tank. Extra 80miles per tank. 2 tanks per week, 160 miles further. 52 weeks in a year

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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> There is a massive difference between 4wd and Awd.


Yes, there is.

On most snowy and slippery roads, AWD is preferable.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> 2017 Sienna AWD 18c/24h
> 2017 Suburban 16c/23h
> 
> Some of you guys are out of your minds with the mileage comparisons.
> Basically even.


When people are making the mileage comparisons, they are not assuming that the minivan is AWD. That is part of the SUV package they decided they do not need (just like with the off-road prowess), and therefore do not want to waste the gas on it.

The 2WD Sienna is 19/27 mpg.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

RAKC Ind said:


> Actually I regret to inform you there is only 2 differences.
> 
> Only 2 differences are:
> 
> ...


You're assuming everyone does the mileage and uses the vehicle precisely as you do. 
Do I get to play it that way too? My Suburban is actually used as strictly as a 'sport/utility vehicle'. I have two other vehicles that get more like 26/30 mpg (and have AWD) that are our main sources of transportation. Probably put a few thousand miles a year on the truck, maybe 5 or 6 tankfulls a year. Overall, my mileage is better than someone using a minivan as a full time driver, by far.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> I have two other vehicles that get more like 26/30 mpg (and have AWD)....


What are those?


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Any Subaru?

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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> Any Subaru?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I wish (I've owned several). I've found Subarus to be the only cars I have owned that I can't get better than the claimed MPG

I can get 30 in my 2017 OB if I don't drive over 60. And and no way anyone's getting 26 in city driving in an Outback. Subaru does not even claim that. I doubt it on the Forester as well. Maybe the Impreza.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

My XV (both) have gotten that mileage or better.

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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

As soon as I read AWD with better mileage, suburu is what came to mind.

The sedans are the only ones (except maybe the newest) that actually get around that mileage on a normal basis.

I'm not saying anyone uses them the same as I do but I am doing an apples to apples comparison where as the way you compare them is not.

My way of explaining how the mileage difference adds up was example only. You actually use more fuel than we do and we have 2 minivans. We see about 10k a year on 1 and 4-5k a year on the other.

You paid for a 3rd vehicle specifically for a designated purpose where as we use ours for everything. 

For you yes it's better off in the end. You have it specifically for the purpose of an SUV. The rewards for putting in the effort and a little luck. Rest of us have to "pick one" lol. Something that covers all the bases we need. 

$10 or more saved per week in fuel adds up fast.

I was simply showing a fair, apples to apples comparison. Otherwise it's like trying to compare a road cassette to a 12s wide range mountain cassette and expecting the road cassette to be as good climbing up the rockies (or coming down for that matter)

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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Silentfoe said:


> My XV (both) have gotten that mileage or better.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Yeah, I guess the smaller engine non-turbo models could do that. XV is basically a lifted Impreza, right? Same engine?

But definitely not "any Subaru".

Fwiw, don't take the MPG estimator seriously. Mine is 7-8% high.

Sorry, I pulled this off topic.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

kapusta said:


> What are those?


17 WRX (mileage is great if I stay off the gas; if I have fun with it, it drops to Suburban levels though) and a Caddy ATS4 (same thing)

Listen, I owned a minivan for a number of years bitd (Toyota Previa, rear wheel drive and a 5-speed stick). Great vehicle; the whole reason I ended up in a big SUV was when it died, I wanted 4/AWD because I used to do a lot of winter hiking/camping/snowboarding and it was cheaper to get a used Suburban than any of the AWD minivans around, and it was the only thing comparable space-wise.

Ended up really liking the truck, so I've stuck with them. I do live in an area that gets a fair amount of snow usually and it's a bit rural, so the bad weather capability is a thing for me. Just making the point that mini-vans aren't some sort of gas-sippers by any means; you'd think people were getting double the mileage of large SUVs the way they talk about it, which they're not. It's a couple miles a gallon; BFD.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Oh hell no they aren't gas sippers lol. Especially these days with all the power doors and everything. 

My old caravan gets much better gas mileage locally. Short version, power nothing, rear seat out. 

But it's an old turd, can't trust it for road trips but at 55-60 and around town it gets nice mileage. 

Compared to SUVS 10 yrs ago, anything except a tank got better fuel mileage. These days they are much more tolerable.

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## gooseberry1 (Mar 16, 2016)

Ok my work vehicle is a a caravan and I love it and it's the vanette because my other van is a E350 4x4 diesel. Yes a mini Van once owned is a must 


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

kapusta said:


> I wish (I've owned several). I've found Subarus to be the only cars I have owned that I can't get better than the claimed MPG
> 
> I can get 30 in my 2017 OB if I don't drive over 60. And and no way anyone's getting 26 in city driving in an Outback. Subaru does not even claim that. I doubt it on the Forester as well. Maybe the Impreza.


FWIW - last ~150 miles of mixed driving in my WRX has the on-board MPG avg estimator sitting a bit under 32. 8 mpg over what's claimed. Not bad at all, considering.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> FWIW - last ~150 miles of mixed driving in my WRX has the on-board MPG avg estimator sitting a bit under 32. 8 mpg over what's claimed. Not bad at all, considering.


I have found the onboard MPG estimator to be worthless. I'm sorry, but there's no way in hell you're getting that in mixed driving. Go take a look at Fuelly to see what people are really getting. Nothing even remotely close to that.

If I believed mpg estimator, I'd be pretty happy with my mileage, too.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

kapusta said:


> I have found the onboard MPG estimator to be worthless. I'm sorry, but there's no way in hell you're getting that in mixed driving. Go take a look at Fuelly to see what people are really getting. Nothing even remotely close to that.
> 
> If I believed mpg estimator, I'd be pretty happy with my mileage, too.


Just posted as possibly interesting to someone. I've had it average as low as 17-18 when I'm getting on it all the time. Whatever. Personally...I could give a damn about fuel economy. I know some people get all wrapped up in it, but to me it's like having spreadsheets tracking bike components weights; I don't really GAF. I would rather pass a stone than spend time on a site devoted to gas mileage geekery.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> Just posted as possibly interesting to someone. I've had it average as low as 17-18 when I'm getting on it all the time. Whatever. Personally...I could give a damn about fuel economy. I know some people get all wrapped up in it, but to me it's like having spreadsheets tracking bike components weights; I don't really GAF. I would rather pass a stone than spend time on a site devoted to gas mileage geekery.


I have to agree there. I buy based on fuel mileage, simply do the basic trip odometer vs fuel used to see how close it is. Takes a tank of fuel of day to day running and then a small road trip. Got my numbers and done. Use that for budgeting fuel expenses for trips.

Bike weight I check overall weight and wheel weight. Care less beyond that.

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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

"Budgeting fuel expenses for trips"

What? Why?

If I need to go on a trip, I go on a trip. I guess how much it may cost and then shoot from the hip. You either can or you can't. 

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm lucky enough that fuel economy isn't an issue. I don't completely ignore it, but it's not usually one of the top factors in choosing a vehicle for me. Also, fuel is relatively cheap in the USA compared to a lot of places. If I was paying $7 a gallon, it would be a lot more of a concern I'm sure. Or maybe not. I used to do a lot of windshield time in my old 99 Suburban. Had a 42 gallon tank, and gas was over $4 a gallon at times.

"I'll take $150 on pump 3 please" 
"Did you say $150?"


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I just cautious with money, it's not a matter of can or can't but less fuel cost means more cash for other things. In this case more trips. I used to own an SUV when gas was $4 a gallon. Wife's car (was gf then fiance at the time) was a Chevy cobalt, it became the road trip vehicle and trips got cut back.

After that whole economic disaster that came to pass during that I stopped taking money for granted. Just never know.

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## Steve Adams (Sep 17, 2010)

This is going to be our new minivan....great match for our micra, jeep patriot and soon my new taco TRD.

https://www.reconcampers.com/photos?lightbox=dataItem-j0sz29021


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## CGrr (Aug 30, 2010)

I want that^


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## Steve Adams (Sep 17, 2010)

Just found out about it yesterday. That with a sylvansport go easy trailer behind it is the ultimate activity vehicle.


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## J_Westy (Jan 7, 2009)

Steve Adams said:


> This is going to be our new minivan....great match for our micra, jeep patriot and soon my new taco TRD.
> 
> https://www.reconcampers.com/photos?lightbox=dataItem-j0sz29021


That's pretty cool... I wonder how small it is in person?

I wish Ford would bring the Westfalia Nugget to the US which is based off the Transit/Tourneo Custom. The Transit Custom is a great size in between the Transit Connect and the big Transit... I wouldn't mind the non-Westy version too. 2.0 liter TDCi with a 6-speed manual would be awesome.

I like the pop-up roof version myself...

Ford Transit Custom Kombi Trend - Westfalia „Nugget" Reisemobil | Ford DE


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## Steve Adams (Sep 17, 2010)

Jwesty, I am thinking the rear section is the same size as a 70s vw westy...but you have a bit more space in the front of the westy with the seats turned around. I think it's awesome. One of those with the sylvansport go trailer....and you have an ideal camping and activity setup!


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## J_Westy (Jan 7, 2009)

Steve Adams said:


> One of those with the sylvansport go trailer....and you have an ideal camping and activity setup!


I had to look up the "go". Pretty cool if you have a lot of gear! I think I'd get by with a 1up rack, but unfortunately Ford probably won't bring over the Nugget... I like the idea of the Recon, but I'm just not a CVT guy. Keep us posted!


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## Steve Adams (Sep 17, 2010)

IM not either but I am willing to overlook it for the rig. I had a cvt in my last patriot....hated it. But this van is so cool...that I am willing to take the risk again...ha ha

The go is AWESOME. there are 3 of us....my wife, my 10 year old who has autism and just learned how to ride bike yesterday!!!!! and myself...so space for gear is needed!


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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

J_Westy said:


> I had to look up the "go". Pretty cool if you have a lot of gear! I think I'd get by with a 1up rack, but unfortunately Ford probably won't bring over the Nugget... I like the idea of the Recon, but I'm just not a CVT guy. Keep us posted!
> 
> View attachment 1145112


Love that trailer. Where is it sold and for how much?


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## Steve Adams (Sep 17, 2010)

visit sylvansports website...its 7g. But it has a built in tent system etc...it is really awesome!


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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

Man I love the Sylvansport trailer but the camping version I saw was $10K. Yikes.


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## TooSteep (Oct 6, 2012)

This is a superb layout with the galley in the rear and the wedge popup:

Ford Transit Westfalia Nugget Elevating Roof Camper Van

The Europeans and Australians get all the great compact van campers


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## chewymilk99 (Nov 26, 2008)

Me and my wife both want a mini van. The problem we have is neither of us wants a mini van as our daily. Which is weird. We rented an Odyssey when we had family visit after our second kid was born.
The driving dynamics were really good, for something that big.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

I thought of these posts after we chose the Sienna SE over the Outback for a recent two of us road trip.

First, it was nice to have bikes inside when storms happened not far into 285 mi drive. Then I realized that my Outback has enough power but my wife's Sienna is almost 300 HP. The lower suspension, bigger wheels and faster steering might not seem like a big deal but with the power they give you a really good large vehicle for speed, twisty roads or stability with loads.

At this point my wife who once said not over dead body only likes her minivan.

The SE version is very much worth looking into if one isn't really sure they want to give up something more sporty but the large performance tires are not the best in winter. They do fine overall but are not as good as a well rated all season tire in snow. It's also obvious the low profile performance tires don't have long wear and I'm sure they'll be more expensive to replace.

Basically the SE version and newer versions with nearly 300 HP give you van utility with characteristics of a powerful sedan made for touring.

I think both Honda and Toyota have some updates about now or soon so these things will probably get even better.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Well i can say now our honda odyssey was our best vehicle decision ever. Hopefully be able to afford a later model version here soon to park along side this one. Combined with a tiny camper (wife and I both agree these big, portable houses on wheels are nothing but posers doing fake camping) we can do what we want when we want.

If it wasnt for extra stuff we had to bring with for the MTB event here this weekend, bikes could have gone in the van. But i dont worry about a little rain.

Nothing like power to spare. Gas mileage was still better than using a pickup.

Only complain is i learned how flipping heavy these newer vans are. About 4600 lbs empty. FFS lol. Had to weigh my trailer, so of course I see van weight too...










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## 749800 (Jul 14, 2013)

I finally drove my 2004 Sienna into the ground (transmission and several other things made it not worth repairing). I've had minivans for 20 years. I bought a Rav4 hybrid to replace it, thinking I could get away with something smaller. However, I really miss the convenience and versatility of the minivan, including the ability to stick two or three bikes in the back, standing up, without even having to fold down the second row of seats. I got about 21 mpg in my Emasculator overall (consistent with the EPA ratings). If I could have gotten a hybrid or hydrogen fuel cell version, I would have got a third minivan.

I do really miss the thing. I've never been the sort of person who worried about what other people think of my ride.


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## WMBigs (Jul 11, 2009)

I bought a 2003 Caravan, 65,000 miles, no back seats, cage behind front seats. Will swallow my bikes whole, dogs are heated and cooled and out of my area. Love it! Basic sound system sounds real good, need a hi-power cd,mp3 player.


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## Weinerts (Feb 3, 2011)

*Still Rolling the Van*

Loaded - I am sure over the limit - but 24 miles per gallon driving 75 all the way home.

This winter we got 27 mpg without anything on the roof not running the AC.


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## DirtyHun (Jan 9, 2011)

I want a Quigley conversion van ...


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## tonyride1 (Oct 5, 2005)

Weinerts said:


> Loaded - I am sure over the limit - but 24 miles per gallon driving 75 all the way home.
> 
> This winter we got 27 mpg without anything on the roof not running the AC.


Wow. I'm assuming you loaded up the bikes with the heaviest ones first and the lightest ones last, you have two fat bikes on there, one in the last position and one in the next to last, and none in the first and we assume that those bikes are actually heavier than the fat bikes? You've got to have around 150 lbs. of bikes hanging from the back of your van.


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## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

hmm is this sort of Van allowed?...duct tape...Zip ties


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

theMISSIONARY said:


> hmm is this sort of Van allowed?...duct tape...Zip ties
> 
> View attachment 1156904


That wild be a minivan in USA and full-sized in the Caribbean.


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## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

in Aus a minivan is one with seats in the back.....other wise its a van


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## NORCAL1979 (Jan 18, 2013)

2014 Toyota Sienna: Santa Cruz shuttle van.

7 bikes and 7 passenger sleeper shuttle, 5 out back on recon, and 2 up top on newly installed rockymounts brass knuckles (not pictured).


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## Weinerts (Feb 3, 2011)

Yeah the cruisers are really heavy - they sit close to the van. One of the fat bikes is my sons and it is just a fat front - and is "light" 
I will take a picture this summer - but I am upgrading the rear springs...


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

WMBigs said:


> I bought a 2003 Caravan, 65,000 miles, no back seats, cage behind front seats. Will swallow my bikes whole, dogs are heated and cooled and out of my area. Love it! Basic sound system sounds real good, need a hi-power cd,mp3 player.


Nice score, what trim level? That cage is in reality a highly important thing to have. Many times I have thought about that.

I just scored a 05 TnC Limited to run along side my 96 Grand Voyager with 212k on the clock (the daily beast).


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## WMBigs (Jul 11, 2009)

Trim level?? Cloth manual seats, these are the best seat for comfort I have ever had. Can sit on my wallet for hundreds of miles with out problem. Now sporting a Sony 50W/ channel stereo. Next up will be new speakers and maybe amp. Hiway mpg about 23-27 average. Love the cage, have hooks on it to hang stuff. 
2.4 4 cyl, a little noisy, real soggy throttle response.


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## Weinerts (Feb 3, 2011)

I think that if I needed to go off road or lived in Utah I would have a truck for sure. 
Here in Southern CA - 90% of the time on the freeway - I love the van. We go to mammoth area 8 or 9 times a year (skiing and summer fun) and typically average 26 - 27 mpg on the trip. I only saw 30 when we went from Lake Powell back to San Diego. 

The question is not the utility - but the Stigma... why do people judge you for what you drive? What is right for one - is right for them.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

I drove around Washington w the family last summer. Bikes, kayak, fishing gear, and we slept in it. Woot.

Saw this one in Bellingham. I want that rack...


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## fuzzymusketeer (May 22, 2019)

I've had a minivan now for over 3 years, and I will probably never sell it. Its a 2016 grand caravan with 3.6 liter V6. It averages around 25 mpg mostly highway miles. I can easily fit 3 buddies AND THEIR BIKES inside the vehicle for a day trip. It doubles as my business vehicle, which I need space for some tools in the back. I can open the hatch, and essentially throw my bike right in with no need for any rack system.

The greatest thing about my van is the fact that it can go from a toy hauler to a 7-passenger vehicle in 5 minutes without the need to ever remove seats. The stown'go
seats fold into the floor in seconds, and is extremely easy(designed for grandmas). I love when my buddies asked to take my vehicle, but then realized I had my bike in the back with no seats. I opened the side door, and flipped the seat up in maybe 15 seconds. He was blown away at the versatility.

My van does have a disadvantage in rough terrain due to its low trim around the front bumper and wheel wells, it has a long wheelbase, and the tires are basically car tread with a little extra rubber. I have been stuck many times, and it requires more than a buddy or two, in most instances, to push you out due to its weight.

I just built a bed for it that is 1.5 ft tall, 7 ft long, and 4 ft wide that will be relatively comfortable with my fiance and I with our 2 labrador retrievers. Underneath the bed is room for approximately 14 cubic feet of storage space. When the bed is not in use, it slides together to serve as a 7 foot bench to get dressed, lounge/drink coffee, cook breakfast, or use as a workbench. 

We are taking a trip to Colorado for our honeymoon the 2nd week of October, and plan on staying in the van. It should be an epic adventure. We are hoping that the snow hasn't stuck around yet, so we can ride some higher alpine trails such as the Monarch Crest.


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