# 20-inch (406) rims and tires?



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

I'm looking for LIGHT wheels and tires for a 20" mountain bike. Here's my problem.

On one hand, there's tons of nice fat 20-inch tires out there, thanks to the BMX market. But most of them are super-heavy, with like 100PSI ratings. I bought a 20x2.25 tire for a cargo bike and I was astounded at how heavy it was. 

Ok, that leaves BMX racing tires, those are probably light right? But most of them are skinny, like 20x1.95 and skinnier. Same with rims. You can buy lightweight rims for BMX racing, but they are skinny. Not great for mountain bike tires.

So where's my wide, but not heavy rims, and fat, but not heavy tires? I'm looking for something with a dirt pattern but I guess it doesn't have to be an outright knobby.


----------



## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's the ones I haven't bothered to buy, but would if my kid were more needful of them

https://spawncycles.com/components


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

That's amazing! Tubeless ready tires! Thanks so much, now I can stip looking for tires.

They don't say how much the rims way but they probably work well with the tires so I should probably get the spawn rims too. I also found alienation deviant rims are about 300g but I don't know how they would do for tubeless.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Has been covered in the past:
https://forums.mtbr.com/families-riding-kids/lighter-wider-20-tires-rims-1114583.html#post14310323

TL/DR version:

The Spawn tires are about as light as you'll find.

CST Fringe gets you 20x2.8" for about ~100g more if you want something bigger (and cheaper), though not necessarily tubeless ready.

Vee Crown Gem is another option for tires.

The Spawn 20" rims weigh ~390g.

Alienation TCS Mischief is pretty light at 290g -- note that it's 23mm internal width vs. 27mm on the Spawn rims.

Trailcraft in the past has sold wheelsets based on Crest MK3 rims that may or may not be even lighter (or currently available)

If you did wind up with tubes, Tubolito has the lightest tubes out there (~60g for a 20") -- weight is going to be pretty close to sealant + valve for a tubeless setup.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

I ended up not buying any of the Spawn parts although their tires looked the best.

The Spawn rims were a bit heavy and they weren't available in 28h. They are wider, but I don't know if that's really better. 

I bought two Alienation TCS Mischief rims. They are tubeless ready and as far as I can tell they are the lightest 406 rims I could find anywhere. $65/each isn't cheap though!

Instead of the Spawn tires I bought two Vee Rubber Crown Gem tires. They are 30g heavier than the Spawn tires, but only $30 each instead of $50 each. 

I'm still looking for hubs but I can make hubs if I have to.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

Well that was annoying...the Vee Crown Gem tires I got in the mail actually weigh 560g, not 440g as advertised. That's a big difference, and it's only a 2.25 tire. The CST Fringe would have been the same weight, but 2.8" and it would be cheaper. So now I'm deciding if I should pay $70/each for the Spawn tires after all. But what if it turns out those ones don't weigh what they advertise either? That would annoy me even more.


----------



## StanfordRacer (Sep 29, 2008)

As a point of reference, I got the Maxxis Maxx Daddy 20x2.0 folding, which I found very cheap from Chain Reaction Cycles. The average of the two tires was 507g each and they are high volume with aggressive tread. I'm very happy with them. They were slightly too wide to fit on the rear of a Islabikes Beinn 20 Small, but work great on my daughter's Spawn Savage.


----------



## CaptainDecisive (Sep 4, 2007)

According to this page the 20 x 2.25" Vee Crown Gems are 520g claimed weight:
https://veetireco.com/product/junior-specialty-crown-gem/

Also, another reference point:
I had access to a bunch of Schwalbe Mow Joe 20 x 2.0" tires (now called Little Joe) and weighed them. Claimed weight is 430g and the average actual weight was 5g less than that. I grabbed the two lightest which were just north of 400g. Also mounted on an Islabikes Beinn 20 Small.

They have decent tread and worked great as general purpose trail tires. Also 2.0" was a good width for a 20" bike. A bit wider would be fine (if you have the clearance) but unless you're riding serious bike park terrain I personally don't think little riders benefit from tires more than about 2.2" due to the weight tradeoff. Which you clearly already appreciate from the content of this thread :thumbsup:
You know your kid and terrain the best so use your judgement.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

Yeah I was just drawing chainline diagrams and realized what a 2.8 tire is going to do to the q-factor. I think a 20" bike running 2.8 tires would be basically a fatbike to the kid. I like fatbikes, but still. 

I actually bought 3 Vee Crown Gem tires, planning to have 2 for the bike and 1 spare. One of them weighs 520g, the other weighs 560g, and the heaviest weighs 570g! I'm just going to roll with these though because I already have them, unless I decide to go to a slightly narrow back tire.

I'm not going to try the Spawn tires cause they are $70 each basically. According to my research, Shwalbe Rocket Rons might be the lightest tires I've seen at only 390g, but they are also $70 retail, and they are sold out everywhere too.

EDIT: I just scored two Schwalbe little joe 20x2.0's for about $32 each, claimed wait about 400g. Great tip! They were sold out almost everywhere...BUT, will they work tubeless? The Vee Crown Gem tires say "tubeless ready". Tubes weigh like 100g easily, and we have too many thorns around here to run tubes so if I have to run tubes with the Little Joe's then it's pointless.


----------



## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

figured I'd post here vs creating a new thread. Looking at potentially getting some new 20" wheels for my son's nukeproof cub scout 20 but had some questions. I already ordered some of the spawn brood 20" tires. He uses the bike for mostly downhilling (mostly flowy trails, he likes jumps but not getting too much air or anything just yet)

1) anyone know who is selling custom/pre-built lightweight wheels in 20"? I see people recommending the stans crest mk3 or the spawn ones but cant find any either pre-built, or custom build options. I would need 15x110 boost TA, and 12x142 TA for the rear i believe.

2) what else would I need other than the wheelset if I dont want to have to take parts off the current wheels and move over? A matching cassette? Sunrace CSM680 8-Speed, 11-42T is whats currently on there. The safest I assume is to get the exact same one, but are there other (lighter) ones I could potentially get without needing to make any big changes? I also assume I need a brake rotor of the same size (160mm). Anything else?


----------



## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> I ended up not buying any of the Spawn parts although their tires looked the best.
> 
> The Spawn rims were a bit heavy and they weren't available in 28h. They are wider, but I don't know if that's really better.
> 
> ...


what's the widest tire you'd be able to put on the alienation tcs mischief? I was considering some different wheels but wondering is the spawn 20x2.2 tires would fit on them. Any concerns with running them as both front and rear on a mountain bike given they're listed as front/race only? I guess they're meant for adults on a bmx whereas this would be for a kids bike. Thanks!!


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

I think I could put the widest tire I care about on these. I'm not a true believer that you have to have super wide rims to run wide tires. I think the Vee 2.25 tires say they are ok for rims down to 19mm, and the alienation rims are 22. 

I just built mine up onto a high flange hum and I'm disappointed because I laced it 3X because the rim said it was supposed to be laced 3x because of the special drilling, but it would have been better laced 2x for sure, because the hubs are 59mm flanges. Now I'm trying to decide whether to unlace it and buy new spokes.

I definitely think they are strong enough. Even at 28h it's obvious this wheel is going to be bombproof. I noticed Trailcraft bikes are laced 20h and I have some road bikes I laced 18h without problem.


----------



## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> I think I could put the widest tire I care about on these. I'm not a true believer that you have to have super wide rims to run wide tires. I think the Vee 2.25 tires say they are ok for rims down to 19mm, and the alienation rims are 22.
> 
> I just built mine up onto a high flange hum and I'm disappointed because I laced it 3X because the rim said it was supposed to be laced 3x because of the special drilling, but it would have been better laced 2x for sure, because the hubs are 59mm flanges. Now I'm trying to decide whether to unlace it and buy new spokes.
> 
> I definitely think they are strong enough. Even at 28h it's obvious this wheel is going to be bombproof. I noticed Trailcraft bikes are laced 20h and I have some road bikes I laced 18h without problem.


Thanks for the info! I don't know much about wheel building so some of that went over my head haha. I reached out to a couple of wheel builders but not sure how many carry both the tcs alienation mischief as well as mountain bike speced hubs. What bike are you putting these on? I was considering them for nukeproof Cub Scout 20 race. It's currently running some wtb tcs i30 wheels which I assume are heavy but I've never weighed them.


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

From what I recall, the alienation mischief rims are only listed as front / race because they don't support rim brakes. Should be fine to use front or back with disc brakes.


----------



## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

TimTucker said:


> From what I recall, the alienation mischief rims are only listed as front / race because they don't support rim brakes. Should be fine to use front or back with disc brakes.


Ah nice, I guess bmx bikes are rim brakes only? I know even less about bmx bikes than I know about mountain bikes!


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

BMX race bikes traditionally use a rear brake only with v-brakes. Freestyle bikes have changed over the years but the current trend for freestyle bikes is back to no brakes at all.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

Ok I'm pretty happy with the TCS Mischief rims. They are definitely legit tubeless rims. After building them up I still think they are heavier than they really need to be. For a 60lb rider I think it could be half the weight and still strong enough, especially at 28h, but this is the standard problem with kids bike parts. At at just over 300g it's still the lightest rim that's tubeless ready. Supposedly the drilling is designed for 3X lacing only, but that seems to be for low-flange hubs. I would encourage anyone buying these to take that with a big grain of salt and lace any high-flange hubs as 2x or even 1x and it will be better. 

I like the Vee crown gem tires in general, but the ones I got were a lot heavier than expected at 500-570g. But they are also tubeless ready and they are a good width. 

Schwalbe Rocket Ron are about the lightest tires I could find. The 2.25 is supposed to be only 400g and the 1.8 is even lighter, but I haven't got them in the mail yet so we will see what they actually weigh. Schwalbe actually pushes the 1.8 for kids because they say the lightness is more important than the width, but I'm a fat tire fanatic so I went with the 2.25's anyway. I have to admit the skinnier ones would simplify the frame design a lot, but I don't want to build a frame around a certain tire either. If I build for 60mm tires I can even stick on any BMX tire if I have to. 

I know I started the thread for 20" rims, but I'm already working on a 24" build. Anyone have a favorite 24" rim?


----------



## CaptainDecisive (Sep 4, 2007)

For 24" rims for trail riding there's an easy choice - Stan's Crest Mk3.
They're light at 300g, 23mm ID, easy tubeless setup, available in 24H / 28H / 32H.
Definitely not the cheapest option, but if you're gonna build custom wheels for a kid then I'd pony up the money.


----------



## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

CaptainDecisive said:


> For 24" rims for trail riding there's an easy choice - Stan's Crest Mk3.
> They're light at 300g, 23mm ID, easy tubeless setup, available in 24H / 28H / 32H.
> Definitely not the cheapest option, but if you're gonna build custom wheels for a kid then I'd pony up the money.


what would you recommend in the 24" category that is a little heavier, but sturdier than the stans cresk mk3?


----------



## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

The Sunringle Duroc is a nice wheel to consider for sure. its heavier and a few mm wider. Very nice wheels.

https://hayesbicycle.com/collections/sunringle/products/duroc-30-j-unit-24
-1679g

The Stan's Crest MK3's are plenty sturdy for a 70lb kid sending gnarly stuff. My oldest boy is doing 8ft drops on them, plenty of black/rough park laps and crashing on all kinds of stuff. I've never had to even re-true them lol. The profile is pretty decent with the 2.4 DHF/2.3DHR2 too. Ours are 1300g 32h on Bitex boost hubs/Sapim Lazer spokes/XD Driver.


----------



## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

svinyard said:


> The Sunringle Duroc is a nice wheel to consider for sure. its heavier and a few mm wider. Very nice wheels.
> 
> https://hayesbicycle.com/collections/sunringle/products/duroc-30-j-unit-24
> -1679g
> ...


Thanks my only concern is they don't have the 32h and won't until feb. I'd have to check down to 28h, or my other plan was to see if I could get a cheaper set of wheels that fit to use now and wait on the 32h crests to if come back in stock (+ 32h has the colored bitex hubs...28h doesn't in 15x110 boost)


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

I'm still on the hunt for light tires... everything is sold out right now. I found the Tioga Powerblock folding tires seem pretty good and advertised at less than 400g, AND they are actually in stock. But this is a BMX tire and I'm pretty sure it's not considered tubeless ready. Do you think it would still work tubeless if I put it on a tubeless ready rim, or used the FattyStripper method on a regular rim?


----------



## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> I'm still on the hunt for light tires... everything is sold out right now. I found the Tioga Powerblock folding tires seem pretty good and advertised at less than 400g, AND they are actually in stock. But this is a BMX tire and I'm pretty sure it's not considered tubeless ready. Do you think it would still work tubeless if I put it on a tubeless ready rim, or used the FattyStripper method on a regular rim?


I might be in the opposite position as you...I'm planning on moving my son to a 24" transition ripcord I'm going to build over the winter and make the 20" nukeproof cub scout available to my daughter who doesnt like park riding, or even trail riding, so mostly around the yard/neighborhood/etc (basically the bike is overkill for her / would be nice to optimize it for her riding). I had originally purchased 3 brood maxtion 20" tires to put on there that just arrived today before they went OOS at spawn, but it seems overkill / not sure if I want to setup the bike for tubeless given the riding she is doing / dealing with the maintenance.

I see a few options, but my biggest issue is the wheels are i30 right now, so not sure if I should be going below like 2.2" width. I may end up just putting on the broods, but that seems overkill/a waste especially if I'm also paying $30/each for tubes.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

You could always just buy some $20 kendas from Walmart and put generic tubes in them then.


----------



## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> You could always just buy some $20 kendas from Walmart and put generic tubes in them then.


aren't those going to end up being boat anchors though? I'd like to keep the weight down as much as possible for the instances we do go trail biking together.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

If you still care about weight that BMX race tires are the place to look. The Tioga tires I mentioned above are hella light and they are also pretty cheap compared to these MTB tires. But I don't think they are anything like tubeless ready.


----------



## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

Did there used to be more than one variant of the 20" rocket ron out there? People seem to recommend it but the only one I've been able to find currently is some super expensive race(?) model "Rocket Ron 20 x 2,25 Super Race ADDIX Speed EVO TLE" and seems generally only available in Europe.

All the other sizes these seem to be a wide range of rocket ron variations other than the 20". I am thinking the rocket ron might be a better replacement tire than the brood maxtion, but not at the price when you include shipping from europe.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

All I know is I researched the Rocket Ron after I saw some Trailcraft bikes with Rocket Rons, and it seemed super good. But then I went to actually buy some, and it's the same story you found...either sold out, or available only overseas with like $50 shipping charges. 

Right now there's two different things: 

--The best tires in theory
--The best tires I can actually buy right now in the US. 

And there's a third category: Tires that it LOOKS like are available at a good price, and in stock, but once I actually place the order I get an email saying they are out of stock actually. 

For me it looks like the Rocket Ron is in the unobtainium category right now.


----------



## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> All I know is I researched the Rocket Ron after I saw some Trailcraft bikes with Rocket Rons, and it seemed super good. But then I went to actually buy some, and it's the same story you found...either sold out, or available only overseas with like $50 shipping charges.
> 
> Right now there's two different things:
> 
> ...


hah, who have you tried to order from? I was looking, and hibike.com says they had them. expensive shipping charge, but total for 3 tires + shipping was something like $162USD. so on-par/cheaper than the brood maxtions if you include spawn's $40 flat rate shipping.

r2-bike.com I saw also have them, but ended up being more expensive since the tires were priced higher, and shipping was also expensive.


----------



## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

jaybert said:


> hah, who have you tried to order from? I was looking, and hibike.com says they had them. expensive shipping charge, but total for 3 tires + shipping was something like $162USD. so on-par/cheaper than the brood maxtions if you include spawn's $40 flat rate shipping.
> 
> r2-bike.com I saw also have them, but ended up being more expensive since the tires were priced higher, and shipping was also expensive.


https://www.chainreactioncycles.com...ket-ron-evo-super-race-mtb-tyre/rp-prod202929

CRC has 4 in stock and I generally find their inventory very up to date. Should be if you order $100+ you'll get free shipping. So $140 for 2 tires. Expensive but in line with the broods if you include broods shipping.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

I ended up putting on the brood maxtion 20x2.2" tires to replace the stock Vee Flow Snap 20x2.4" and tubeless at the same time. Ended up saving very close to 2lb total between the lighter tire and tubeless. Had an air compressor, but tire beaded without any problem on a WTB i30 stock wheel.


----------



## gooey1 (Jun 5, 2017)

For what it's worth I am building up some mischief rims, and primarily will be trying them with the 1.4" wide versions of Little Joes which only weigh 290 grams each + or - a couple grams in my case. Locally I could only get the wider versions at double the price, so I figured what the f e. Sorta like a 1.85 on a 29" tire, with a much lighter rider ratio. 90% of what we do is paved anyways, though the other 10% can be pretty gnarly at times, so we'll see how it works out. Will be putting some wider tires on standby as soon as possible just in case.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

Yeah I'm building my bike to fit fat tires (meaning 2.25) just because I don't know how long I will be able to get the skinny joes and I'd like the option to at least bung a BMX tire on there in the future. 2"+ tires for this scale of bike are really like fat tires or + tires and I think the Schwalbe recommendation to do the skinnier ones is a good one...most kids probably benefit from the lighter weight of the skinny tires more than they will from the fatter tire. I'm still building to fit a 2"+ tire but there's a lot of compromises to make it happen which will probably add a half a pound of weight to the bike as well.


----------



## gooey1 (Jun 5, 2017)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> Yeah I'm building my bike to fit fat tires (meaning 2.25) just because I don't know how long I will be able to get the skinny joes and I'd like the option to at least bung a BMX tire on there in the future. 2"+ tires for this scale of bike are really like fat tires or + tires and I think the Schwalbe recommendation to do the skinnier ones is a good one...most kids probably benefit from the lighter weight of the skinny tires more than they will from the fatter tire. I'm still building to fit a 2"+ tire but there's a lot of compromises to make it happen which will probably add a half a pound of weight to the bike as well.


That's actually one of the benefits of the Mischief rim, at 23mm ID it's one of the skinniest BMX rims, so a 1.4" tire is a width of 1.6x ratio to the rim, which is considered well within the rim to tire ratio. In an email Albe's also told me people ride the Mischief with 2.4" tires with no problem. So, it is a very versatile rim. I think the tubeless design contributes allot to this as the lip is deeper and made to hold tightly to the tire. FYI, the Spank Spoon 28 20" rims, are almost identical dimensions. Depending on what you're going with in the cockpit, you can save 200 to 500 grams there pretty easily if you don't mind some plain looking made in China components. TNI helium stem is 81grams, some bars are about the same...


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

gooey1 said:


> That's actually one of the benefits of the Mischief rim, at 23mm ID it's one of the skinniest BMX rims, so a 1.4" tire is a width of 1.6x ratio to the rim, which is considered well within the rim to tire ratio. In an email Albe's also told me people ride the Mischief with 2.4" tires with no problem. So, it is a very versatile rim. I think the tubeless design contributes allot to this as the lip is deeper and made to hold tightly to the tire. FYI, the Spank Spoon 28 20" rims, are almost identical dimensions. Depending on what you're going with in the cockpit, you can save 200 to 500 grams there pretty easily if you don't mind some plain looking made in China components. TNI helium stem is 81grams, some bars are about the same...


The lightest thing by far is to make an integrated bar/stem, which I've done before for my road bikes, but this time I'm trying to stay with normal parts more, and I'm just scouring aliexpress and eBay for the lightest parts I can find, which are usually still more than strong enough. I wanted to do disc brakes but I'm still reeling at how much weight it's going to add altogether. On my kids tandem I did a rear disc and front caliper but the levers end up feeling different that way so I think both ends need to have the same brakes now.


----------



## gooey1 (Jun 5, 2017)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> The lightest thing by far is to make an integrated bar/stem, which I've done before for my road bikes, but this time I'm trying to stay with normal parts more, and I'm just scouring aliexpress and eBay for the lightest parts I can find, which are usually still more than strong enough. I wanted to do disc brakes but I'm still reeling at how much weight it's going to add altogether. On my kids tandem I did a rear disc and front caliper but the levers end up feeling different that way so I think both ends need to have the same brakes now.


I'd be curious to hear what the lightest disc brake combo's you've come across are. I am currently looking at hope offerings, and just starting to dig into to older light weight road offerings. I already have hubs and direct mount discs, so am just looking at lever and caliper options.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

gooey1 said:


> I'd be curious to hear what the lightest disc brake combo's you've come across are. I am currently looking at hope offerings, and just starting to dig into to older light weight road offerings. I already have hubs and direct mount discs, so am just looking at lever and caliper options.


Levers matter a lot. Both because of weight and fitting small hands. CX levers are lightest and they are what I put on the kid's road bikes. Tektro cross lever is about 45g and if I make a custom mount it's closer to 30g. Most MTB levers are more like 75g.

CX levers require road calipers but this is kind of OK because road calipers seem to be lighter and they come in flat mount which is also much lighter and smaller. For this bike I have a set of used TRP Spyre brakes in flat-mount but I need to build at least 2 more bikes and I'm not looking forward to the expense. You can also buy the TRP brakes with carbon arms that are even lighter but I'm not made of money. I made this other thread about cheaper brakes:









Aliexpress CX brakes


I need to buy 4 to 6 road-compatible flat-mount brakes for a kid's MTB's (long story). Most flat-mount, road compatible disk calipers are pretty expensive. TRP spyre is about $50/caliper or even more. If there's a cheaper option from Shimano or others let me know. I'm probably not interested in...




www.mtbr.com





Aishima rotors are very light and a decent price, but they don't have them in 120mm. You can get 120mm normal rotors but they are heavier than lightweight 140 or 160's. For 120mm rotors I'm going to try some rotors that I made.
View attachment 1909946


----------



## gooey1 (Jun 5, 2017)

[/QUOTE]



JackOfDiamonds said:


> Levers matter a lot. Both because of weight and fitting small hands. CX levers are lightest and they are what I put on the kid's road bikes. Tektro cross lever is about 45g and if I make a custom mount it's closer to 30g. Most MTB levers are more like 75g.
> 
> CX levers require road calipers but this is kind of OK because road calipers seem to be lighter and they come in flat mount which is also much lighter and smaller. For this bike I have a set of used TRP Spyre brakes in flat-mount but I need to build at least 2 more bikes and I'm not looking forward to the expense. You can also buy the TRP brakes with carbon arms that are even lighter but I'm not made of money. I made this other thread about cheaper brakes:


How do you adapt the flat mount calipers? I've been scratching my head trying to find info on this.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

How do you adapt the flat mount calipers? I've been scratching my head trying to find info on this.
[/QUOTE]

In general you cannot adapt flat mount calipers to a bike that is not flat mount. You need to have flat mounts on the bike already.

Actually I think they have adapters to put normal calipers on flat-mount bikes though.


----------



## gooey1 (Jun 5, 2017)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> How do you adapt the flat mount calipers? I've been scratching my head trying to find info on this.


In general you cannot adapt flat mount calipers to a bike that is not flat mount. You need to have flat mounts on the bike already.

Actually I think they have adapters to put normal calipers on flat-mount bikes though.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, you are right about being able to put normal calipers on flat-mount bikes. The article I read was several years old and said there was currently no known adapters to go the other way, but thought maybe you knew some new information. I am of the stubborn belief that just about anything can be adapted to anything with enough persistence and willful blindness to aesthetics and common sense.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

Update with finished wheels. Don't think it's possible to build a tubeless disc wheel much lighter with current parts until someone makes lighter rims. I thought about drilling the rims out like fatbike rims but couldn't be arsed.

I looked hard for a way to use fewer spokes, either 20/24h or 36h laced 18h. But I couldn't find light hubs in 36h and the rims don't come in 24 or 20. I don't think I could build a hub much lighter than 127g. I also looked at Ti spokes but 2mm Ti spokes aren't really competitive with 1.8mm steel. Of course you can't get the really good Revolution or CXray spokes in these sizes either.










Front: total weight 998g, 1061g with disc
Tire: Little Joe 2.0
Rim: Alienation Mischief 28h
Tape: kapton+packing tape
Tube: none!
Spoke nipples: ebay "7075" alloy--seem pretty nice actually
Spokes: DT 15ga / 1.8mm
Hub: "DA5" regular QR (127g)
QR: titanium
Disc: Aishima 140mm
Bolts: Aishima aluminum

Rear: 1461g, similar build but I had to make a custom hub, then hang 360g of boat-anchor freewheel on it anyway.


----------



## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

I thought it would probably be better to tag on to the end of this discussion rather than start a new thread. Lots of great information here and @JackOfDiamonds wheel build is cool!

I'm looking to do a low cost 20" wheel build for our sons 2019 Orbea MX 20 Team for Christmas. The stock wheels are quite heavy and the hubs do not accommodate disc brakes. We aren't likely to try to fit more than about a 2.3" tire and currently run 2.1" Kenda Small Block 8s. This will be my first attempt at wheel building. I've done some research and watched a few of the better videos online for wheel building. I am pretty sure I can get the build done, but may need to go to a shop for the final true. I'm thinking I'll be at least $230 into the build, possibly more.

For hubs, I was looking at using the Arc MT007 from Aliexpress for $61/set. We used these to rebuild my older sons 24" wheels and they have been great so far. They also have replaceable end caps to adapt to different frame and fork standards. (In case we end up getting an air fork down the line.) Is there anything out there even cheaper that provides similar capabilities and performance?

For spokes, I was looking at Sapim Leaders to keep the cost down. Is a 2 cross pattern the best bet for lacing (58mm spoke PCD, 67mm flange)?

On the rim side of things, I think I have it narrowed to two options. Either the Spawn Brood TR27 28H for $45/ea or Alienation Mischief 28H for $65/ea. Comparing the two...

Spawn Brood TR27 (28H)
27mm Internal
385g
384mm ERD
$100 Delivered

Alienation Mischief (28H)
23mm Internal
290g
386mm ERD
$145 Delivered

Both are currently available, fairly reasonable in price and tubeless compatible. I'm having a hard time justifying the additional $45 for the Alienations, even though I know rotating weight is the best place to cut grams.

Are there any built wheel options out there that I might be better off buying? If Spawn had their wheels in stock, I would probably just go that route. I really like the Sun Durocs, but I just can't justify spending $600 wheels on the bike. (Especially to my wife.)


----------



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

If you wait a few weeks, it's not too unlikely that there will be at least one site that carries the Alienation rims with a Black Friday coupon for at least 10-15% off.

By the same token, it's likely that the Duroc wheels and/or rims will also be available with coupons -- historically Hayes has had coupons in the 25-30% off range for Black Friday / Cyber Monday.


----------



## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

TimTucker said:


> If you wait a few weeks, it's not too unlikely that there will be at least one site that carries the Alienation rims with a Black Friday coupon for at least 10-15% off.
> 
> By the same token, it's likely that the Duroc wheels and/or rims will also be available with coupons -- historically Hayes has had coupons in the 25-30% off range for Black Friday / Cyber Monday.


Thanks Tim. I may be able to wait until Black Friday on rims, complete wheels or spokes. Even if I ordered the hubs today, they wouldn't get here until mid-December, anyway. 

I know Hayes has some pretty good sales, but even at 30% off, the Durocs be more than I am willing to spend. I also have an email in to Spawn asking if they know when their TR27 wheelset might be back in stock. The convenience and lower cost compared to a complete wheel build might be too attractive to pass up.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

For me, hubs don't really matter. Buy generic Aliexpress hubs; they will probably be fine. Probably even if you buy the lightest ones you can find, they will still be plenty strong. I've even repurposed walmart QR hubs before. They roll, and aren't shockingly heavier. 

Spoke count doesn't matter that much either. I think 20-inch wheels probably are optimum with 16 or 20 spokes, but 28 doesn't make a big difference in weight. I don't even get too put out if I have to build 36 anymore. 

Spoke quality doesn't matter much here either because all of these wheels have too many spokes anyway. For applications where it matters, I insist on high-end spokes, especially DT. 20-inch kid wheels, with an overbuilt rim, and twice as many spokes as needed, isn't one of those applications where it matters. I just try to get the lightest spokes I can. Good luck finding any high-end spokes like CXrays or whatever in these sizes. If you are lucky, you will be able to find 15g or double-butted spokes. You won't be able to be picky about the brand. 

Spoke nipples do matter, a lot, especially if you want the wheel to be maintainable. DT swiss brass is the default for me. If you use aluminum ones, buying a quality brand matters even more. If the rim doesn't have eyelets, I ALWAYS use stainless nipple washers, on any wheel, and especially with aluminum. 

Rims matter the second most. It sucks that there are few choices out there. But don't buy rims that are 100g heavier, just to save a few bucks, then pretend to care about the rest of the wheel. Because it's mostly the rim that matters. 

Tires matter the first-most. I literally design the rest of the bike after choosing the tires first.


----------



## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

Thanks for the response Jack. Especially the input on kids wheels.



JackOfDiamonds said:


> For me, hubs don't really matter. Buy generic Aliexpress hubs; they will probably be fine. Probably even if you buy the lightest ones you can find, they will still be plenty strong. I've even repurposed walmart QR hubs before. They roll, and aren't shockingly heavier.


Generic (Arc) hubs Aliexpress hubs is what I am planning to do. I do have a set of hubs at home I would try to reuse, but the only reason I have them is that they are only 7 speed compatible. Those 7 speed hubs were replaced on another bike with the same Arc hubs I am planning to use.



JackOfDiamonds said:


> Spoke count doesn't matter that much either. I think 20-inch wheels probably are optimum with 16 or 20 spokes, but 28 doesn't make a big difference in weight. I don't even get too put out if I have to build 36 anymore.


Being my first wheel build, but knowing that the wheels will be over-built for a 6 year old, I was planning to keep it simple with 28H rims and hubs. Complicating things with buying higher hole count wheels and hubs and only utilizing half the spokes doesn't seem like challenge I want to take on.



JackOfDiamonds said:


> Spoke quality doesn't matter much here either because all of these wheels have too many spokes anyway. For applications where it matters, I insist on high-end spokes, especially DT. 20-inch kid wheels, with an overbuilt rim, and twice as many spokes as needed, isn't one of those applications where it matters. I just try to get the lightest spokes I can. Good luck finding any high-end spokes like CXrays or whatever in these sizes. If you are lucky, you will be able to find 15g or double-butted spokes. You won't be able to be picky about the brand.


The Sapim Leaders I mentioned are as cheap as $0.45 for sliver or $0.70 for black. These are basic non-butted 14G J-bend spokes. If there are even cheaper options to do the job, I am all ears.



JackOfDiamonds said:


> Spoke nipples do matter, a lot, especially if you want the wheel to be maintainable. DT swiss brass is the default for me. If you use aluminum ones, buying a quality brand matters even more. If the rim doesn't have eyelets, I ALWAYS use stainless nipple washers, on any wheel, and especially with aluminum.


Thanks for the heads up on the spoke nipples. I honestly would have never thought of that. Additionally, neither the Spawn nor the Alienation rims have eyelets from what I can see. So, stainless nipple washers it is.



JackOfDiamonds said:


> Rims matter the second most. It sucks that there are few choices out there. But don't buy rims that are 100g heavier, just to save a few bucks, then pretend to care about the rest of the wheel. Because it's mostly the rim that matters.


I hear you on this. We'll see if I can get the "boss" to approve the budget with the higher cost lighter rims.



JackOfDiamonds said:


> Tires matter the first-most. I literally design the rest of the bike after choosing the tires first.


I've already been looking at tires. The Vee Crown Gems have actually proven to be pretty great on two other kids bikes. Both of those are still using tubes, though. We'd be looking at the 120 TPI tubeless version of the tire. Partially because it is the one that is readily available. Rocket Rons are also a strong consideration. We may even look at the new Kenda Booster.


----------



## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

Velocity USA makes several 20” 406 rims. I just built up a set of wheels for my 7 YO with their A23 rims. The rims weigh 280g and come in lots of drillings. I built them 24 hole front and 28 rear using road bike hubs with double butted spokes. They set up tubeless just fine with Kenda K 1153 tires and Muc Off rim tape. 
Their Cliffhanger rim is pretty wide if that’s what you’re after. Heavier though.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

That's a good data point. I saw the velocity rims but didn't want to chance tubeless setup. I have a set of random Alex BMX rims that are actually lighter than the Alienation rims, but I haven't wanted to chance an unreliable tubeless setup. Tubeless is mandatory here because of thorns or else I would just run them with light tubes.

That looks like a nice tire. Do you know what it weighs?


----------



## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

I did not weigh them before I installed them. I wish I would have. Kenda doesn’t currently have them listed on their site, so I don’t even know the claimed weight. I wonder if they’re discontinued? I got them on eBay because I needed tires in that size in a hurry.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

Time to bump this thread again because I need another set of 20-inch tubeless rims for my trailer. 

Has to be 28h which is even more rare.

I still can't find anything that's actually in stock. Anyone find anything recently?


----------



## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> Time to bump this thread again because I need another set of 20-inch tubeless rims for my trailer.
> 
> Has to be 28h which is even more rare.
> 
> I still can't find anything that's actually in stock. Anyone find anything recently?


How particular are you about the rims?

Looks like Albe's, Time2Shine and Source have Alienation Mischiefs in stock. Chain Reaction has Durocs. Spawn has Brood TR27s.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

I mostly want a good tubeless capability and not too expensive. It's for a kids trailer so I don't need phenominal cosmic performance. I just need tubless because trailers are absolute goathead magnets. And I want a decent rim so if I do get a flat the tire doesn't pop off. But we all know that the cheap tubeless-ready rims don't really exist yet.

There are some 28h Duroc's at ChainReaction, but they are $107 each, and they are a portly 480g!

I'm happy with my Mischiefs. At 290g they are the lightest I've found, but still overbuilt for kids, but not bad. I can't find any Mischiefs in 28h anywhere, but I saw that Albes had a few 28h Malice rims in stock. They are a little heavier at 325g according to Albes, and they have brake surfaces (which I don't need), but they should get the job done. I ordered 2.


----------



## Redlands R&C (Dec 14, 2013)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> Time to bump this thread again because I need another set of 20-inch tubeless rims for my trailer.
> 
> Has to be 28h which is even more rare.
> 
> I still can't find anything that's actually in stock. Anyone find anything recently?


If you have a local bike shop with an account through Velocity, they have some 28h A23 and Aeroheat rims on their garage sale site. I just picked up a 24/28hole combo from my LBS and it was a good deal. Worth investigating?


----------



## BikePilot1 (May 15, 2006)

Fwiw I built my kid a light mtb (16.1lbs) almost 4yrs ago. I used the alienation rear rim and a crest front (it's. 20/24 mixer) laced with ti spokes and aluminum nipples to dt240s hubs. I don't recall the weight of the wheels alone but they've held up really well after 3 full seasons of steep and rocky trails and lots of time in the dirt jump park. We've been running rocket ron fronts and little joe rear tires. He's getting bigger and heavier now and I think a little more meat might be due soon. Hopefully spawn gets their tires back in stock soon!


----------

