# Made in the USA



## Ninja Otter (Feb 3, 2010)

Ok so I went to the Sea Otter Classic on friday. Loved it and didnt want to leave. So I was talking to one of the guys at Elsworth about there bikes and he said that the carbon fiber bikes are made over seas. Then he also said cant remember which bike it was but one of there bikes the parts are made here and then the parts are assembled over seas then shipped back. One of the reasons i was looking at Elsworth was that they say made in the USA. Its just been bothering me. What other brands say that there made in america but not realy technicaly made here. Am I being picky?


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

You say made in America as if it is a good thing.

Taiwan has a better manufacturing base and generally produces higher quality products at a better price.


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## glitz (Jan 27, 2010)

In the bike industry, made in the US is a good thing. Companies only go to Taiwan to increase profits. This is a model started many years ago, especially as specialized began pricing its taiwan-made bikes higher and higher and the market was tolerating it.


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## greasemeat (Oct 23, 2009)

Instantly - every time - first response - the question "is their claim of 'made in the usa' accurate?" is read as USA vs/ everywhere else. So predictable at this point, really don't get it.

Its a false advertising question not a quality debate question.

BTW, last week I happened to ask Titus about their production & here's what he wrote back:

"Since 2009 the El Guapos have been made overseas. The thermal forming used to shape the tubes is only done in one factory in the world."


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

glitz said:


> In the bike industry, made in the US is a good thing. Companies only go to Taiwan to increase profits. .


anything to back that up?

didnt santa cruz move their CF work out of the US to china, for quality reasons? giant also makes some of the highest quality bikes around, engineering wise and structurally. no one has the facilities to even compete in the united states.

labor is cheaper there, and so incredibly more established. its a win win for everyone really. better bikes at a lower cost.


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## glitz (Jan 27, 2010)

One Pivot said:


> anything to back that up?
> 
> didnt santa cruz move their CF work out of the US to china, for quality reasons? giant also makes some of the highest quality bikes around, engineering wise and structurally. no one has the facilities to even compete in the united states.
> 
> labor is cheaper there, and so incredibly more established. its a win win for everyone really. better bikes at a lower cost.


You're 100% right.


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## greasemeat (Oct 23, 2009)

Pivots are from asia. Specialized, Titus & now apparently Mr. "handmade in usa" Cannondale are. How much is that new Giant carbon rig? Show me these "lower costs". Bikes are costing more, not less - even Giants which is recockulous btw

It's fine to disbelieve the hype that made in USA = better, but you also need to dismiss claims of asia = lower prices


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## JonnySpitz (Mar 9, 2009)

One Pivot said:


> anything to back that up?.


Turner. Nuff Said! :thumbsup:


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## Zion Rasta (Jan 7, 2004)

If you want no fing kidding made in USA Turner is your answer.

Now, Taiwan has the best technoogy. China has the best CF manucfacturing. We (USA) helped make the china CF factories what they are today.

Made in USA is so 80's / 90's. I actually love the fact that I can get a hold of super tech bikes at very low cost. Wow, I just realized that nothing in my Kestrel RT-900 SRAM red is made either in Japan nor USA... Ad it weighs 15lbs with pedals, computer and cages...


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## mtb 4ever (Jun 14, 2008)

OP may have just ment that he wanted to try and support US jobs. If you don't, then don't worry about it, but for him it might be important. My bike was made overseas, because that's all my LBS has.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

OK since everyone has gone about this emotionally I'll give the "accurate" technical answer as reconised by the cycling industry and consumer products regulators. A bike can be claimed to be made in "XXXXX" if once fully assembled the parts used from "XXXXX" total more than 50% of the total cost of the bike (if I remember right).


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

To the OP...you're doing the right thing. Educate yourself on the features which are important to you before making your purchase.

You have to ask the direct question to the company because many companies will hide behind a history of US manufacturing while sneaking in imports knowing that most people won't bother to ask.

For me, if everything is imported, then it just comes down to price and feature content. The brand name has no value at that point.


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## MidKnight (Mar 31, 2010)

I, like others, find it interesting that people jumped right to the quality versus cost of overseas versus USA. Some of us try to buy American to support American workers... we all are, so lets support ourselves here. 

It's sad, last time I went to Autozone to get discs and pads for my car to do the brakes myself, I asked if any of the parts were American made... nope. I'd have bought them even if they cost more.


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

MidKnight said:


> It's sad, last time I went to Autozone to get discs and pads for my car to do the brakes myself, I asked if any of the parts were American made... nope.


That's when you walk out and go to a different store; then write an e-mail to the Autozone CS...they have to know those choices hurt them or else the management will think there's no repercussion. I write e-mails like this all the time; it's the beautiful thing about the internet.


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## Frozenspokes (May 26, 2004)

I don't support "made in China" over made in the USA. Trek moved all of It's AL production to China a few years back without any corresponding reduction in price. I guess they had to do it to survive. 

The truth is that you can't compete with slave labor. The Chinese gvt has taken measures to devalue it's own currency for years. This artificially lowers the cost of Chinese manf products. It also robs theChinese worker of purchase power. They have little To no safety regulations in Chinese factories. In many instances, little control over the content of raw materials used (think lead based paint in childrens toys). It's the wild west over there. 

I don't have a problem w/overseas manf. My most recent bike purchase was made in Tiawan. But I'm not very excited about the rape of the US manufacturing base that has occurred in the last decade or so. If we aren't actually making stuff, how do we expect our economy to survive.

The '90s experiment with a finance based economy seems to have failed. It turns out that the only thing wall street actually produces is fees. They just kept finding new ways to package the same bucket of money and polishing turds. Without a real manf base in the US, we will see a decrease in our standaard of living.


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## jollybeggar (Feb 2, 2004)

Simple fact #1: Our country is in the mess it is in because we've exported all our manufacturing jobs over seas. Simple fact #2: We are all to blame because we wanted cheaper stuff. Simple fact #3 We are all screwed because our nation is now bankrupt. Simple fact #4 We won't recover until those jobs come back to America. 

Free trade is free!


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## hondaph00l (Aug 12, 2008)

Somebody mentioned this earlier but the industry in Taiwan and China would not be what it is if it were not for American consumer demand over these years. A few years ago I didnt care, but in the last few years I have made/will continue to make a conscious effort to buy all of my high dollar possessions from reputable American sources.

Someone mentioned Cannondale earlier and I was wondering how much of their line is produced in Asia? At the time I bought mine two years ago I was only aware that the lower end bikes were made in Asia. I dont think it would be a bad measure for the consumer protection agency to require manufacturers to include detailed information stating the origin of primary parts categories and amount of labor in percentages in all locations along the manufacturing process.


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## cchase86 (Mar 7, 2006)

I've always been a fan of the Taiwanese bikes that put an American flag on the downtube with "Designed in the USA", and in tiny writing below that "Made in Taiwan".


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## Cujo (Jun 10, 2004)

jollybeggar said:


> Simple fact #1: Our country is in the mess it is in because we've exported all our manufacturing jobs over seas. Simple fact #2: We are all to blame because we wanted cheaper stuff. Simple fact #3 We are all screwed because our nation is now bankrupt. Simple fact #4 We won't recover until those jobs come back to America.
> 
> Free trade is free!


 You hit the nail right on the head! Too bad all Americans can't think this way.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I have no problem with the outsourcing, and the problem isn't that Ellsworth is outsourcing. The problem is that Ellsworth pushed their "made in the USA" angle and slagged on other manufacturers, essentially they put out lots of propaganda to promote their "made in the USA" feature. Now all of a sudden, it's "ok" for Ellsworth to outsource, but somehow it wasn't ok for these other manufacturers? Same thing with carbon, some how it's "not ok" for every other manufacturer to use carbon, but Ellsworth's is somehow far more special, as you see from their advertisements/propaganda. They just go over the top and see to be overly desperate to sell bikes, using whatever marketing angle seems to work at a given time, with no regard to integrity.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

jollybeggar said:


> Simple fact #1: Our country is in the mess it is in because we've exported all our manufacturing jobs over seas. Simple fact #2: We are all to blame because we wanted cheaper stuff. Simple fact #3 We are all screwed because our nation is now bankrupt. Simple fact #4 We won't recover until those jobs come back to America.
> 
> Free trade is free!


This always bugs me, there seems to be some sort of unrealistic notion that a company can just crank out widgets forever, or that an employee can work for said widget company and just crank out those widgets the same as always, until they retire.

This ignores one of the most basic qualities of a sucessfull business IMO, and that is change. A business MUST be able to change and adapt to be sucessfull. They have to use new production techniques, manage their human resources differently, go into new and different markets, and so on. That is the only "constant" in business as far as I'm concerned. The companies that "die" are the ones that do not do this. They are either locked into agreements with unions or just so short-sighted from a management perspective that they can't see the forest for the trees. Workers will be displaced, but there will be more of a productive "cycle" as new skills are constantly needed.

Outsourcing may only be one small facet of this, it may be cheaper to eventually have robots do all the work in our own country, but the premise that you can somehow stop the "loss of manufacturing jobs" is completely flawed IMO. Trying to do so only digs you further into the hole of stagnation and not being able to compete.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

jollybeggar said:


> Simple fact #1: Our country is in the mess it is in because we've exported all our manufacturing jobs over seas. Simple fact #2: We are all to blame because we wanted cheaper stuff. Simple fact #3 We are all screwed because our nation is now bankrupt. Simple fact #4 We won't recover until those jobs come back to America.
> 
> Free trade is free!


We are also between and rock and a hard spot because #4 can't happen. Reason why is because of #2. Fact is, Americans demand high pay for the work we do. If we are making the products that we want to buy at low cost, we can't have high wages. So what are we going to sacrifice, cheap stuff or high pay?


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## glitz (Jan 27, 2010)

Nubster said:


> We are also between and rock and a hard spot because #4 can't happen. Reason why is because of #2. Fact is, Americans demand high pay for the work we do. If we are making the products that we want to buy at low cost, we can't have high wages. So what are we going to sacrifice, cheap stuff or high pay?


Germans demand more than Americans and they protect their manufacturing and export sector very strictly, only recently sidestepping to China as #1. To me, it's a matter of companies choosing profit, responding to consumers choosing price over anything else, at even the cost of quality. When manufacturing is strong in countries like Switzerland and Germany, where labor costs are astonishingly higher than in the US, one has to wonder what the difference is that makes the US send manufacturing overseas.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

glitz said:


> Germans demand more than Americans and they protect their manufacturing and export sector very strictly, only recently sidestepping to China as #1. To me, it's a matter of companies choosing profit, responding to consumers choosing price over anything else, at even the cost of quality. When manufacturing is strong in countries like Switzerland and Germany, where labor costs are astonishingly higher than in the US, one has to wonder what the difference is that makes the US send manufacturing overseas.


I think a lot of it comes down to size. We're simply too big of a country to maintain an attention span. There are vastly different economic regions throughout the country, but being one big nation, people look to the region with the highest income(for the same job) and wonder aloud why they aren't making the same.

Due to increasing awareness of human rights, slave labor has been replaced by outsourced labor as somewhat of the 'fuel' that keeps the empire running. We're the new empire. We're eventually going to make a lot more of the same mistakes all of the other empires made that will lead to us being broken down into several smaller nations, some of which will thrive, some of which wont. Personally, I hope I live to see the day.


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## Dibbs_ (Feb 17, 2009)

sean salach said:


> I think a lot of it comes down to size. We're simply too big of a country to maintain an attention span. There are vastly different economic regions throughout the country, but being one big nation, people look to the region with the highest income(for the same job) and wonder aloud why they aren't making the same.
> 
> Due to increasing awareness of human rights, slave labor has been replaced by outsourced labor as somewhat of the 'fuel' that keeps the empire running. We're the new empire. We're eventually going to make a lot more of the same mistakes all of the other empires made that will lead to us being broken down into several smaller nations, some of which will thrive, some of which wont. Personally, I hope I live to see the day.


woohoo it's drunky!!


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

Ggrrrrrrrr! :dw:


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## Ninja Otter (Feb 3, 2010)

In my OP i wasnt questioning quality or cost. I just want to know exactly what i'm buying and from where. I was actualy surprised that the guy mentioned all that. My GF works for a company in the US that makes knock off brands for stores. They say everything is made in the USA but in fact its made overseas. If there asked where its made they are told to dodge the question or lie and say its made in the USA. So i'm grateful that he told the truth about his product but if i went by the sticker on the bike i would be pissed if i thought i was buying an american made bike and it wasnt. If i had two choices in bikes same quality but one was made in the usa and more $ and the other was from Taiwan and cheaper. to me its worth the extra money. I'll just save a little longer for it.


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## mtb 4ever (Jun 14, 2008)

All we do is sell each other life insurance and service lawns. One day, we will have our manufacturing base back. Unfortunately it will come because the economic collapse of our Monopoly money. A nation has to export things to compensate for the products we import. If not, in the long haul, we will not be able to afford to import all their great stuff.


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## CrashCanipe (Jan 12, 2004)

sean salach said:


> I think a lot of it comes down to size. We're simply too big of a country to maintain an attention span. There are vastly different economic regions throughout the country, but being one big nation, people look to the region with the highest income(for the same job) and wonder aloud why they aren't making the same.
> 
> Due to increasing awareness of human rights, slave labor has been replaced by outsourced labor as somewhat of the 'fuel' that keeps the empire running. We're the new empire. We're eventually going to make a lot more of the same mistakes all of the other empires made that will lead to us being broken down into several smaller nations, some of which will thrive, some of which wont. Personally, I hope I live to see the day.


Sean,
I'm shocked to hear an American who hopes to live to see the day that the greatest experiment in liberty and democracy fails. If anything, I would think an American would hope to see the principles of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness thrive. All that will do is continue to weaken the dollar and increase our debt in a vicious downward spiral. I'll go back to riding my bike now.

At the same time, I agree there needs to be changes which creates the biggest advantage the USA has over many other nations. We can vote, we can speak, we can challenge our leaders.

Unfortunately or fortunately (the jury is still out), I think the USA has transitioned to where the manufacturing jobs are not coming back except for low labor content or high logistics cost items. There will always be somewhere in the world where labor is cheaper. The focus needs to be on education where we can create jobs that are more focused on design, engineering, etc. There is a reason why Google, Microsoft, and others are hiring like crazy in the US (yes, there is also overseas hiring as well). The only way to continue to grow the job base is to educate our population. The current unionized public schools, welfare system, etc are not successful in creating an environment that encourages learning and inspires people to better themselves.

If things don't change, we will go the route for which you are hoping. We can't afford to continue to add to the size of government while simultaneously removing all incentive to improve your lot in life (unlimited welfare, high taxes, etc).


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## Frozenspokes (May 26, 2004)

mtb 4ever said:


> All we do is sell each other life insurance and service lawns. One day, we will have our manufacturing base back. Unfortunately it will come because the economic collapse of our Monopoly money. A nation has to export things to compensate for the products we import. If not, in the long haul, we will not be able to afford to import all their great stuff.


True and succintly put.


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## M_S (Nov 18, 2007)

Quality in finished product can happen anywhere. The question is whether fair labor practices are being met, and manufacturing processes adhere to reasonable environmental regulations. In China the answer to the first is maybe, and the second absolutely not. In Taiwan, probably yes to the first and no to the second.

I don't have any greater affinity for US workers than Taiwanese, but I am no fan of the export of environmental degradation. This shipping abroad of ecological harms due to irresponsible manufacturing is the dark side of the American Environmental movement.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

CrashCanipe said:


> Sean,
> I'm shocked to hear an American who hopes to live to see the day that the greatest experiment in liberty and democracy fails. If anything, I would think an American would hope to see the principles of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness thrive. All that will do is continue to weaken the dollar and increase our debt in a vicious downward spiral. I'll go back to riding my bike now.
> 
> At the same time, I agree there needs to be changes which creates the biggest advantage the USA has over many other nations. We can vote, we can speak, we can challenge our leaders.
> ...


It's not like the concept of liberty and 'freedom' will cease to exist if the US breaks up into smaller nations. Look at Europe. They've got pretty much everything we have in a bunch of small, independent little nations. There really aren't that many countries out there where people can't vote(effectively), speak or challenge their leaders. We're too big. I'm perfectly happy being an American, and with any luck, I'll be able to be perfectly happy living in a smaller country when I die, without having to move from Alaska(or whichever state I find myself in when that happens).


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## Rick O'Shay (Jan 12, 2004)

CaveGiant said:


> You say made in America as if it is a good thing.
> 
> Taiwan has a better manufacturing base and generally produces higher quality products at a better price.


So then, why are we keeping you employed? Sounds like the smart thing to do is send your job over to Asia so it can be done better.

Or do you think you're an exception?


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

Rick O'Shay said:


> So then, why are we keeping you employed? Sounds like the smart thing to do is send your job over to Asia so it can be done better.
> 
> Or do you think you're an exception?


I would think that his being in/from the UK definitely makes him an exception regarding any American input....


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## Wild Wassa (Jun 4, 2009)

I like the bikes that are made in Taiwan over the bikes made in China. 

Warren.


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## Frozenspokes (May 26, 2004)

sean salach said:


> There really aren't that many countries out there where people can't vote(effectively), speak or challenge their leaders. We're too big. I'm perfectly happy being an American, and with any luck, I'll be able to be perfectly happy living in a smaller country when I die, without having to move from Alaska(or whichever state I find myself in when that happens).


I could not disagree with you more. There are quite a few nations where people cannot effectively vote/challenge the govt. If you beleive that most of the world is just like the US with strange food and different languages, your off the mark.

Here's to never seeing the eventuality you seem to welcome. While I disagree with what you say, I will defend your right to say it. It's my job after all.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Searching for the smilie of America with its head up its own butt........... 

No offense:thumbsup: , but would you pay more for the quality of the OP's spelling, or less for 25 Asian guys sticking your dream together in the chemical mist?

You guys created the international market so you could exploit it. This is your new world disorder. A few ride on the pig's back or carve out their own niche. The rest join the international flotsam and see all their heritage go down the gurgler.

Survival of the....

Don't whinge, just ride!


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## JUNGLEKID5 (May 1, 2006)

CaveGiant said:


> You say made in America as if it is a good thing.
> 
> Taiwan has a better manufacturing base and generally produces higher quality products at a better price.


that may be true but we the U.S.A. keep sending our jobs over seas and we leave our self's with what??? stop sending our work over seas.. by local and American made..


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## JUNGLEKID5 (May 1, 2006)

jollybeggar said:


> Simple fact #1: Our country is in the mess it is in because we've exported all our manufacturing jobs over seas. Simple fact #2: We are all to blame because we wanted cheaper stuff. Simple fact #3 We are all screwed because our nation is now bankrupt. Simple fact #4 We won't recover until those jobs come back to America.
> 
> Free trade is free!


THANK YOU!!!


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## ThornPatch (Jan 21, 2004)

The days of the USA leading the world in manufacturering are long gone. And for the record the reason why "Made in the USA" is so much more expensive isn't only beacuse of labor (including both union and unorganized workers), but beacuse of many factors, such as lawsuits and environmental issues.

Personally, I don't think manufacturing will ever come back to the USA, at least not as we or our parent's generation knew it. If America wants to be competitive in the next 100 years then we should be pushing our kids to get engineering degrees. Specifically bio and chemical engineering degrees.

The country that produces the best engineers (all types of engineers) will be the top World Super Power for the next century.


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## CrashCanipe (Jan 12, 2004)

ThornPatch said:


> The days of the USA leading the world in manufacturering are long gone. And for the record the reason why "Made in the USA" is so much more expensive isn't only beacuse of labor (including both union and unorganized workers), but beacuse of many factors, such as lawsuits and environmental issues.
> 
> Personally, I don't think manufacturing will ever come back to the USA, at least not as we or our parent's generation knew it. If America wants to be competitive in the next 100 years then we should be pushing our kids to get engineering degrees. Specifically bio and chemical engineering degrees.
> 
> The country that produces the best engineers (all types of engineers) will be the top World Super Power for the next century.


EXACTLY!


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## bikecop (May 20, 2004)

One Pivot said:


> labor is cheaper there, and so incredibly more established. its a win win for everyone really. better bikes at a lower cost.


we're really going to need those low prices when the dollar goes to zero value.


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## mfisher1971 (Dec 7, 2005)

it's good to see that some of us learned a few things from playing connect the dots as kids.

• american made • american jobs • american prosperity •


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

When I owned, designed and manufactured products for Hurricane Components (seatposts, cranks, stems, brakes and the Fork Up) I was very adenment about having all my products manufactured in the USA. I sourced all my materials and hardware from US suppliers. I was proud to produce products that carried the "Made in the USA" label.
As far as business sense is concerned, maybe I made the wrong move and should have had my products made overseas, like just about everyone else, but I felt that was the wrong thing to do, even if I would have been more successful.


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

i immigrated here with my folks and became citizens back in '72 when i was still a grom. we came from extremely humble beginnings. Both my parents grew up in fishing villages and I have plenty of memories growing up in and around that. I still believe the US will thrive if we can learn to sacrifice what we need to. This country has allowed my family the oppurtunity you simply can't get as easily anywhere else. I'm forever thankful I'm here everyday as "hard" or "tweaked" as it is at the moment it is all relative. 

i kind of view it as (and is) the US being the youngest kid in class. Loads of potential, bit of a cowboy( i like that), and a 20something when it comes to its finances whose still growing up alongside its much older peers and still learning about consequence. made in the usa doesn't hold itself exclusively to mfg product to me but seeing it from my beginnings i think she'll grow up and thrive just like she let me.


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## Thor29 (May 12, 2005)

ThornPatch said:


> The days of the USA leading the world in manufacturering are long gone. And for the record the reason why "Made in the USA" is so much more expensive isn't only beacuse of labor (including both union and unorganized workers), but beacuse of many factors, such as lawsuits and environmental issues.
> 
> Personally, I don't think manufacturing will ever come back to the USA, at least not as we or our parent's generation knew it. If America wants to be competitive in the next 100 years then we should be pushing our kids to get engineering degrees. Specifically bio and chemical engineering degrees.
> 
> The country that produces the best engineers (all types of engineers) will be the top World Super Power for the next century.


That's a load of hooey.

If everybody's kids get engineering degrees there will just be a lot of unemployed engineers.

Engineers are not the driving force behind being a super power. You might want to put down your thermodynamics books and read a little history. The reason the USA is on top is because it built a massive manufacturing base during WWII that was still intact after the war and could then turn the abundant natural resources it possessed into manufactured goods. (Sure, this took engineers, but it also took a lot of other occupations as well).

After WWII we were an oil exporting nation with a massive resource base. Since then we have burned through our natural resources and destroyed our manufacturing base. To keep the economy going we have gotten further and further in debt. Eventually we will lose the economic leverage that we now have and we will self-destruct. This is already beginning and eventually the rest of the world will quit sending us such a large percentage of the world's output. After all, why should the Chinese work so hard to provide us with stuff that they could just enjoy themselves?


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## glitz (Jan 27, 2010)

mfisher1971 said:


> it's good to see that some of us learned a few things from playing connect the dots as kids.
> 
> • american made • american jobs • american prosperity •


Countries like Switzerland followed that model and are doing quite well, even in the midst of the finance crisis.


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## dunerinaz (Mar 5, 2009)

glitz said:


> Germans demand more than Americans and they protect their manufacturing and export sector very strictly, only recently sidestepping to China as #1. To me, it's a matter of companies choosing profit, responding to consumers choosing price over anything else, at even the cost of quality. When manufacturing is strong in countries like Switzerland and Germany, where labor costs are astonishingly higher than in the US, one has to wonder what the difference is that makes the US send manufacturing overseas.


Even German manufacturing companies have started outsourcing to China.


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## glitz (Jan 27, 2010)

Everyone has long outsourced. People in this thread are acting like it just started and we can avoid it. I've been hearing about this for 30 years now. It's going to take decades to reverse this. Even Japan's manufacturing economy collapsed and they never got out of their recession from the early 90's.


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## CrashCanipe (Jan 12, 2004)

Thor29 said:


> That's a load of hooey.
> 
> If everybody's kids get engineering degrees there will just be a lot of unemployed engineers.
> 
> ...


Thor,
You need to read your history and also apply logic. There are lots of reasons for countries being superpowers in history - strong armies (Rome), manufacturing strength (US actually starting with the Industrial Revolution, not just WWII), natural resources (USSR), strong navies (Britain), etc. There are many ways to get there.

The discussion here has sidetracked into the future of the US. The point of engineering strength is a possible way for America to become dominant - not just chemical and biological but software engineering, aeronautical, etc. There will always be countries who will be able to manufacture as the title of world's cheapest labor pool will rotate. Once China lets the RMB strengthen the title will probably move elsewhere (India, Vietnam, who knows where?). This doesn't mean the US will not have any manufacturing. There will always be a place for it as I posted earlier. To bring it back to bikes, I and many others will pay extra for custom Moots or Lenz products and pay more for the overall experience versus just buying an off the shelf Trek. Now that it is back to a bike topic, I'm outta here.


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## hotfeat1227 (May 15, 2007)

The real question is, do I buy an asian-manufactured bike from my LBS, or do I order a US made bike from an internet retailer? In the end maybe it doesnt matter so much...


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## sandman012 (Aug 9, 2009)

jollybeggar said:


> Simple fact #1: Our country is in the mess it is in because we've exported all our manufacturing jobs over seas. Simple fact #2: We are all to blame because we wanted cheaper stuff. Simple fact #3 We are all screwed because our nation is now bankrupt. Simple fact #4 We won't recover until those jobs come back to America.
> 
> Free trade is free!


Thanks Walmart!!


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## Yeti_Rider (Dec 26, 2003)

greasemeat said:


> Show me these "lower costs". Bikes are costing more, not less - even Giants which is recockulous btw
> 
> It's fine to disbelieve the hype that made in USA = better, but you also need to dismiss claims of asia = lower prices


manufacturing costs in Asia are lower. that doesn't mean the retail price will be lower if the company wants to keep a high profit margin though.........

I guarantee you that if we could find out the manufacturing cost of a frame made in the USA vs. one made by Giant in Taiwan, the USA frame would cost more to produce. Yet they almost assuredly have similar retail prices......


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## tls36 (Dec 10, 2005)

Thor makes a good point, the Chinese will eventually benefit from their manufacturing, our Country has already fallen with our BS Monopoly money. Someone just needs to tell our corrupt Gov't it has been dead for years......look where outsourcing got our society!!!!! Greed, laziness and apathy.................the American way!!!!!


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## nuclear_powered (Apr 18, 2007)

If you want to be patriotic, buy from a company that 100% manufactures the bike in the country you live in. 

If you want to buy the best manufactured bike, do the research and find which country has the best manufacturing for the type of bike you want to buy.

I get the impression that unless you live in Taiwan, you won't be able to satisfy both of the objectives above.


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## shwinn8 (Feb 25, 2006)

are aren't Yeti frames made in USA? i know the Rotec RL9 is


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## 11 Bravo (Mar 12, 2004)

ThornPatch said:


> The country that produces the best engineers (all types of engineers) will be the top World Super Power for the next century.


That rules out the U.S. unless we make some major changes in our education system.

I have worked with dozens of young engineers and 80% of them are dumber than a bag of hammers and you cant tell them a dam thing because the knuckleheads think a degree makes them smart. Oh, they can do the math (sometimes), but they don't understand how anything works. I have worked in the industry for 30 years and worked my way into management. I have a 3 ring binder full of certificates and technical certifications. But no degree, so my opinion doesn't matter to some of these engineers. Never mind that me and the men that work for me have to figure out how to keep the junk they design working in the field.

I am pretty sure that the main mission of institutions of higher education in the U.S. is to pump the younger generations head full of liberal ideas about social justice and junk science.

One could probably make a pretty strong case that the pathetic state of our education system, and the gross stupidity of engineers and college educated managers, has lead to many of the problems debated in this thread. Just as one example, look at the absolute garbage the U.S. auto industry was producing in the late 70's and 80's. Does anybody think it was the fault of the people on the assembly lines that they were building junk?

One could probably also make the case that ONE (of many) of the reasons so many things are outsourced overseas now is because the managers are completely devoid of any critical thinking ability. Need to increase the profit margin some? Easy, hire a factory overseas to make the stuff. Lets not spend 2 minutes trying to figure out another way. In every big company I have been around there is so much waste and inefficiency it is mind boggling.

I will give management a pass on the outrageous fees, taxes, and regulations that our government uses to break our industry's backs. About the only way to solve these problems is move the production off shore. Ever wonder why when taxes go up, revenue to the government goes down?

Sorry for the rant. I am dealing with a particularity bone headed engineer on some projects right now and I have another conference call in the morning about some engineering oversights on some parts.

I sure hope to get enough time for a ride this coming weekend. Makes everything better:thumbsup:


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

*Intense still made in USA*

I don't thinks Yeti is made in USA may be some model.
As far as I know, Intense manufactures all parts of their frames even pivot bolts. That's why on the longer travel models, drop out are $300 a pair to replace, and linkage bolts is $25-30 a piece. I was a bit surprised when I replace my 5.5 because it could be pretty easy to outsource these parts and get them cheaper. Props to Intense though.

Some US bike companies are small, and it's tough to keep every thing running when you are small and don't have man power to support. I waited 4 months for my first set of Industry Nine. Another company I just spoke to Fred at Wolfhound, the lead time is 18-20 months for a frame. So there's demand for USA made stuffs.

There are some saving that got pass along to consumer from oversea bikes, but not huge. They do have state of the art facilities and labor is definitely lower, but enjoy it while we can, that would change too.

If it the right bike for me I'd buy it doesn't matter where it's made. :thumbsup:

It seems like everytime the word "made in USA" is mentioned on any thread there's an instant debate.


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## shwinn8 (Feb 25, 2006)

mimi1885 said:


> If it the right bike for me I'd buy it doesn't matter where it's made. :thumbsup:
> 
> It seems like everytime the word "made in USA" is mentioned on any thread there's an instant debate.


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## High Side (Apr 16, 2010)

CrashCanipe said:


> Sean,
> The current unionized public schools, welfare system, etc are not successful in creating an environment that encourages learning and inspires people to better themselves.
> 
> If things don't change, we will go the route for which you are hoping. We can't afford to continue to add to the size of government while simultaneously removing all incentive to improve your lot in life (unlimited welfare, high taxes, etc).


Not to mention an administration that hates capitalism.


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## sandman012 (Aug 9, 2009)

High Side said:


> Not to mention an administration that hates capitalism.


Yeah, all those former Goldman Sachs executives that hold many of our governments top financial positions, and all those Wall Street campaign donations Obama reaped in ... definitely anti-capitalism.

Don't believe all the posters you read at Tea Party rallies.


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## High Side (Apr 16, 2010)

sandman012 said:


> Yeah, all those former Goldman Sachs executives that hold many of our governments top financial positions, and all those Wall Street campaign donations Obama reaped in ... definitely anti-capitalism.
> 
> Don't believe all the posters you read at Tea Party rallies.


You're right. My only sources of information are Tea Party Posters.:madman:


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## dopaminer (Mar 21, 2009)

Let`s keep it on bikes. 

Quality is an issue, and there is something to be said for high-volume, low-tolerances, robot-assembly lines. But I`ve seen lots of promotional material by big Taiwanese makers like Giant and Merida: their factories, which make bikes for lots of different brands, are full of housewives working part-time, standing along production tables with boxes of bolts and components....classic sweatshop imagery a la Nike runners or Sony walkmans. It`s just not inspiring at all. 

In contrast, take a company like Intense, mentioned earlier. Jeff Steber is still designing the M-series downhill bikes - that is lineage, there`s something of value there that makes it more than just product. That, for me, is important. It`s not that it`s made in the USA; it`s not that it`s the highest-possible quality. It`s that people put some heart and soul into it... Those shots of Rick the Welder racing on his 951 - that he welded. Man, that`s cool. 

Also, it`s a mistake to lump Taiwan and China together - Taiwan is a developed, basically first-world vibrant democracy. China is a giant North Korea, with the addition of billions of dollars of rapacious foreign investment, milking its slave labor. Watch it fold up and devolve back into its hermit status once its currency appreciates, its environment disintegrates and its population revolts....

Oops. Bikes. Sorry.


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## pop_martian (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that by outsourcing manufacturing overseas, there is more money left to put back into R&D. Just think of how much better bikes have become over the last 15 or 20 years. Were it not for the larger R&D budgets, we might still be riding antiquated steel fully rigid bikes (yes, I am aware that some weirdos still ride these bikes ).


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## Bobby12many (Apr 28, 2004)

Buy an OCLV Trek and feel better about yourself


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## jscusmcvet (Sep 7, 2009)

CrashCanipe said:


> Sean,
> I'm shocked to hear an American who hopes to live to see the day that the greatest experiment in liberty and democracy fails. If anything, I would think an American would hope to see the principles of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness thrive. All that will do is continue to weaken the dollar and increase our debt in a vicious downward spiral. I'll go back to riding my bike now.
> 
> At the same time, I agree there needs to be changes which creates the biggest advantage the USA has over many other nations. We can vote, we can speak, we can challenge our leaders.
> ...


Well said.

For those of us who have served this country in order to defend the ability of all of us to speak our minds in this manner, it is a bit disheartening to hear anyone say that they wish for the demise of the very country that has guaranteed support for their right to say that very thing. A lot of lives have been sacrificed over the last couple hundred years to secure that freedom. Show some respect.


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## deoreo (Aug 26, 2005)

dopaminer said:


> Quality is an issue, and there is something to be said for high-volume, low-tolerances, robot-assembly lines. But I`ve seen lots of promotional material by big Taiwanese makers like Giant and Merida: their factories, which make bikes for lots of different brands, are full of housewives working part-time, standing along production tables with boxes of bolts and components....classic sweatshop imagery a la Nike runners or Sony walkmans. It`s just not inspiring at all.


Umm...assembly, is assembly...sometimes it requires human hands.
What about automobiles?

























How is that different to bikes?









While I don't necessarily agree with everything that's going on in China, Taiwan, and the USA, I have a hard time swallowing that Giant is a "classic sweatshop."


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## jollybeggar (Feb 2, 2004)

I personally don't have a problem buying stuff assembled in America. I just want jobs for the U.S. We need to do what ever is necessary to bring jobs to U.S. tax paying workers. If that means tariffs on foreign imports to balance the trade gap then so be it. How about big tax incentives for companies with a U.S. work force. The more U.S. workers you employ the lower your corporate taxes. 

We need to think outside the box, we need to make some tough decisions, and we need to consider how our actions effect our nation and our fellow citizens.

Lets start by voting out the incumbents. That will send a message to Washington that we want real change not just party change. Change that will help all U.S. citizens not just the special interest groups. 

One more thing then I'll shut up. Everybody should be paying taxes and sharing the burden, from the richest to the poorest. It should be a point of pride that we all share the burden of supporting our society. The idea that 47% of Americans pay no taxes and that many get a tax credit is ridiculous. Everybody should pay something and only those who over pay their share should get a refund. 

The only way we will get out of this mess is to create jobs in America that pay enough to support ourselves and create revenue for the U.S. Treasury.


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## dopaminer (Mar 21, 2009)

deoreo: "Umm...assembly, is assembly...sometimes it requires human hands.
What about automobiles?

How is that different to bikes?

While I don't necessarily agree with everything that's going on in China, Taiwan, and the USA, I have a hard time swallowing that Giant is a "classic sweatshop.""

I agree that there is nothing wrong with either the car factory or the Giant factory. I wasn`t commenting on `sweatshops` in the context of their moral fitness. I was using the term to imply that the workers are disinterested in the product. My point was totally unrelated - I was commenting on how, to me, it matters that the rider-owned and staffed places (like Intense, or Point One Racing) bring some kind of....intangible quality to their product. Some....soul? Whatever that means... Anyway, I like it; it`s important to me, it`s why I wouldn`t buy a bike made by people who don`t have some connection to what they`re making other than their paycheck. NOT THAT I`M DENIGRATING the people working in any of the pics above. 

And I don`t give a crap about cars - just give me one that works; I`m not into them at all. I`m into bikes...


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## Spinning Lizard (Nov 27, 2009)

Ellsworth still makes most of their Aluminum bikes in the US, you cannot make carbon bikes in the US because of enviromental laws and taxes (unless you have consumers that will pay $10000.00 for a frame). 

As far as jobs going overseas, has a lot more to do with OUR GOVERNMENT TAX BURDEN on business then employee pay, Cannondale pays their people more per hour in China then they did in the US. Just do some research on the tax code of the US VS other countries. We have the highest tax per company then anywhere in the world.


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## deoreo (Aug 26, 2005)

dopaminer said:


> I was commenting on how, to me, it matters that the rider-owned and staffed places (like Intense, or Point One Racing) bring some kind of....intangible quality to their product. Some....soul? Whatever that means...


That's cool. I hear ya. Still, should it make a difference where/who, made the bike if it remains true to the product manager or designer?
For example, I absolutely LOVE the direction Brandon Sloan, of Specialized has taken the line of high-end, enthusiast mountain bikes, but, he can't personally build each and every one of them.
Do you really think the biggies, like Trek, Specialized, and Giant use scientists, in white lab coats, that have never thrown a leg over a bike on dirt, to create their bikes?

Heck, Santa Cruz owner Rob Roskopp was a skater  whats he know about bikes? I'm kidding, I'm kidding :thumbsup:


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## Colonel Flagg (Jan 7, 2006)

JonnySpitz said:


> Turner. Nuff Said! :thumbsup:


+ 1


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

Spinning Lizard said:


> Ellsworth still makes most of their Aluminum bikes in the US, *you cannot make carbon bikes in the US *because of enviromental laws and taxes (unless you have consumers that will pay $10000.00 for a frame).


Calfee?? And I'm sure there are others.... There a lot of companies in other industries working with carbon fiber in the US.


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## Bobby12many (Apr 28, 2004)

sean salach said:


> Calfee?? And I'm sure there are others.... There a lot of companies in other industries working with carbon fiber in the US.


TREK produces ALL of their OCLV frames in Waterloo, WI, and assembles them in a nearby WI plant.

His statement couldnt be more false


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

deoreo: +1

I'm not in the bicycle industry primarily, but I can tell you this sad piece of news. The operating costs and amount of resources are the same whether running a boutique high-end handmade US mom and pops -or- a generic run of the mill dime a dozen mass production imported chain. Costs of running a brick n mortar business by the books with the certification, licensing, employee health care, worker compensation, and taxes... it's no wonder you see empty buildings across America.


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## 2ridealot (Jun 15, 2004)

jscusmcvet said:


> Well said.
> 
> For those of us who have served this country in order to defend the ability of all of us to speak our minds in this manner, it is a bit disheartening to hear anyone say that they wish for the demise of the very country that has guaranteed support for their right to say that very thing. A lot of lives have been sacrificed over the last couple hundred years to secure that freedom. Show some respect.


Thank You :thumbsup: Well said by you!


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

jscusmcvet said:


> Well said.
> 
> For those of us who have served this country in order to defend the ability of all of us to speak our minds in this manner, it is a bit disheartening to hear anyone say that they wish for the demise of the very country that has guaranteed support for their right to say that very thing. A lot of lives have been sacrificed over the last couple hundred years to secure that freedom. Show some respect.


If you fought for the right of the people to think and speak about such things, why would it be disheartening that they are using that liberty? Would you rather you fought for something that wasn't really necessary because everyone quietly followed the will of their leaders anyway? Wouldn't it be more disheartening to find out that nobody wanted the freedoms you fought for??

By the way, Thanks!


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## greasemeat (Oct 23, 2009)

Why would it be disheartening? Jesus.


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## Zasshu (Jun 6, 2008)

glitz said:


> In the bike industry, made in the US is a good thing. Companies only go to Taiwan to increase profits. This is a model started many years ago, especially as specialized began pricing its taiwan-made bikes higher and higher and the market was tolerating it.


Those morons, LOL!

I don't buy Big S, but it's hard to find anything that's not mass produced in asia. I do like the manufacturing model that Pivot has adopted.


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## AnthemRider (Feb 7, 2007)

sean salach said:


> If you fought for the right of the people to think and speak about such things, why would it be disheartening that they are using that liberty? Would you rather you fought for something that wasn't really necessary because everyone quietly followed the will of their leaders anyway? Wouldn't it be more disheartening to find out that nobody wanted the freedoms you fought for??
> 
> By the way, Thanks!


You mean like the logic of some groups being that members of our military fought and died for freedom of speech, so to honor their memory we need to pass laws restricting unpopular speech!


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## Pittzer (Apr 30, 2009)

Jayem said:


> This always bugs me, there seems to be some sort of unrealistic notion that a company can just crank out widgets forever, or that an employee can work for said widget company and just crank out those widgets the same as always, until they retire.
> 
> This ignores one of the most basic qualities of a sucessfull business IMO, and that is change. A business MUST be able to change and adapt to be sucessfull. They have to use new production techniques, manage their human resources differently, go into new and different markets, and so on. That is the only "constant" in business as far as I'm concerned. The companies that "die" are the ones that do not do this. They are either locked into agreements with unions or just so short-sighted from a management perspective that they can't see the forest for the trees. Workers will be displaced, but there will be more of a productive "cycle" as new skills are constantly needed.
> 
> Outsourcing may only be one small facet of this, it may be cheaper to eventually have robots do all the work in our own country, but the premise that you can somehow stop the "loss of manufacturing jobs" is completely flawed IMO. Trying to do so only digs you further into the hole of stagnation and not being able to compete.


Finally, somebody who gets it. Further, these jobs that we "exported" overseas are never coming back. We need to create new jobs within new industries that provide greater value to our lives. That is the only way for our nation to compete with the rest of the world. Sadly, the government is eating up too much capital in the form of high taxes and deficit spending. That makes it difficult, if not impossible, to build new industries in our nation. It also doesn't help when you pay millions of people to NOT work.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

AnthemRider said:


> You mean like the logic of some groups being that members of our military fought and died for freedom of speech, so to honor their memory we need to pass laws restricting unpopular speech!


:thumbsup:

It's kind of like saying freedom should be hung on a wall and looked at, maybe dusted from time to time, but heaven help anyone who considers using it.


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## Spinning Lizard (Nov 27, 2009)

Tell me where they buy the strands of there carbon from? CAN YOU? Trek or Calfee? Its not in the US, they may layer the frame here, but its origin is somewhere else.


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## greasemeat (Oct 23, 2009)

Yes yes, you are so *brave* for _daring to speak out._ Against what exactly? Oh yeah, the destruction of the US. Very noble, very admirable. Yeah man the Civil War was awesomeeeee, all that death, rape, shattered lives & suffering, can't wait for more. Why? Because the current geography is "too big." LOL Okay nevermind you, next

>>so to honor their memory we need to pass laws restricting unpopular speech!>>

The hell does this mean? What laws? Jump the gun much? He was simply saying it'd be nice for someone enveloped in the security & freedom he helps provide to not wish it all to go down in flames. He asked for some respect, not the DARK HAND OF KRISTALLNACHT.. get over urselves

So predictable tho, this topic is tired, next


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

greasemeat said:


> Yes yes, you are so *brave* for _daring to speak out._ Against what exactly? Oh yeah, the destruction of the US. Very noble, very admirable. Yeah man the Civil War was awesomeeeee, all that death, rape, shattered lives & suffering, can't wait for more. Why? Because the current geography is "too big." LOL Okay nevermind you, next
> 
> >>so to honor their memory we need to pass laws restricting unpopular speech!>>
> 
> ...


HAHAHAHAHAhahaha!!! Awesome.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

Spinning Lizard said:


> Ellsworth still makes most of their Aluminum bikes in the US, you cannot make carbon bikes in the US because of enviromental laws and taxes (unless you have consumers that will pay $10000.00 for a frame).





Spinning Lizard said:


> Tell me where they buy the strands of there carbon from? CAN YOU? Trek or Calfee? Its not in the US, they may layer the frame here, but its origin is somewhere else.


Most carbon fiber strands are manufactured in Japan, US and Germany. I don't know where Trek and Calfee source their strands, but it is entirely feasible that they are sourced in the US from US manufacturing plants owned by either Toray, Hexcel or Cytec.

Where is the bauxite mined to produce the aluminum Ellsworth uses in their bikes, since that is the standard you suggested for made in the US?

*EDIT: after a quick and easy search, I'm 99% sure the aluminum doesn't come from the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bauxite


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## dopaminer (Mar 21, 2009)

deoreo said:


> That's cool. I hear ya. Still, should it make a difference where/who, made the bike if it remains true to the product manager or designer?
> 
> Do you really think the biggies, like Trek, Specialized, and Giant use scientists, in white lab coats, that have never thrown a leg over a bike on dirt, to create their bikes?
> :


What you just said reminded me of my second-ever mountain bike: a Klein, ca.late 80s. It was the theee schitt. All my buddies had Broadies and Rocky Mountains; then, one of them found an article in a magazine that had an interview and photo of Gary Klein, and here was this fat, white lab-coat-engineer from a University in Washington. I was devastated, and much ridiculed. He makes telescopes now, apparently.

I`m not making a point; just sharing a memory. Pretty good memory, but damned I`m getting old....


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## roc865 (Jun 29, 2009)

JonnySpitz said:


> Turner. Nuff Said! :thumbsup:


do they make hardtails?


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## jscusmcvet (Sep 7, 2009)

I apologize for taking this thread into an area that it seems was not the intent. But alas here is my response:

Disheartening, yes. I never said he or anyone could not say whatever they wanted to. I respect that right, I fought for it. Disheartening is not even related to me saying I would not want him to be able to say it. However, it is indeed disheartening that the poster looked forward to the demise of the US. 

Hey, say it all you want... just as I will say it is disheartening when you do. You exercise your right, I exercise mine... as it should be. Try to intimidate or get me to back off a comment that was not antagonistic and simply stated my opinion on the subject? Don't think that'll work... on a internet forum, in person or anywhere else.

To those of you who understood my comments and supported them. Thank you. I will return the favor when the opportunity arises. 

John


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

jscusmcvet said:


> I apologize for taking this thread into an area that it seems was not the intent. But alas here is my response:
> 
> Disheartening, yes. I never said he or anyone could not say whatever they wanted to. I respect that right, I fought for it. Disheartening is not even related to me saying I would not want him to be able to say it. However, it is indeed disheartening that the poster looked forward to the demise of the US.
> 
> ...


I didn't try to intimidate you In fact I thanked you at the end of the post. There was obviously some miss-communication, as I definitely read your initial post(quoted below) as being disheartened that I said what I said because doing so was disrespectful to the people that fought to maintain the right to say it, as opposed to simply disagreeing/being of diferent opinion. Reread it if you want, it comes off as a self-contradicting message.



jscusmcvet said:


> Well said.
> 
> For those of us who have served this country in order to defend the ability of all of us to speak our minds in this manner, it is a bit disheartening to hear anyone say that they wish for the demise of the very country that has guaranteed support for their right to say that very thing. A lot of lives have been sacrificed over the last couple hundred years to secure that freedom. Show some respect.


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## Frozenspokes (May 26, 2004)

Pittzer said:


> Finally, somebody who gets it. Further, these jobs that we "exported" overseas are never coming back. We need to create new jobs within new industries that provide greater value to our lives. That is the only way for our nation to compete with the rest of the world. Sadly, the government is eating up too much capital in the form of high taxes and deficit spending. That makes it difficult, if not impossible, to build new industries in our nation. It also doesn't help when you pay millions of people to NOT work.


Yes, change is a fact of life in business, military, or any other sector of the economy. Outsourcing to China has become the norm for manufacturing. That is a decision that has been made by companies to either increase profits, lower prices, or just plain survive. This weakens the US. For me it is more than an economic issue. It is a strategic issue. The cumputers I use at work are not made in the USA. There are no US manufacturing plants of USB memory sticks. There are no US manufacturing plants for computer memory. We are at the mercy of other nations for these items. That's just two examples. There are many more. That weakens the US

The US consumers fixation on price over all other considerations has driven this change. While change is inevitable, not all change is good. Blaming the Govt for over taxing the population when 47% of the population pays no income tax shows a lack of understanding of what is REALLY going on. Not only are individual tax rates at 50 year lows, many corporations are paying little to no taxes either. This ensures that govt. debt will increase.

I agree that paying people not to work is not the best policy. Deficet spending is certainly not sustainable. But during times of economic crisis, it is customary for governments to spend more than they take in. The problem would not be so dire had our government not been spending more then we were taking in over the last six or seven years when the economy was growing. But strangely enough, I have only recently heard people on the right complaining stridently about the deficet.

If we keep on the current path of buying most of our consumer products from China. And our government continues to borrow money from China. Before long, our nation will be kowtowing to our Chinese overlords. I have no intention to do that! That is why I try to buy American whenever possible. I don't invest in Chinese markets even though that has hurt me in the short term. Many of my decisions are based on my interpretation of the Chinese government policies that make it difficult for us to compete with Chinese manufacturers. They have created an artifial downward pressure on price that other developed nations cannot compete with. They have also decreased (or at least slowed the improvement of) the standard of living of the Chinese population. Very few Chinese manufacturers are making products for the Chinese market. Why, because they can't afford the products made in their own factories.


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## djr8505 (Apr 23, 2008)

When I think about the job market starting with my Grandpa's generation; He was able to get a career right out of high school and retire with a full pension.

My father was basically the same; out of high school he had some higher education and the Navy; but then started his career and is now retired with a decent retirement plan.

I graduated from high school, there were no "careers" open that would pay enough to survive so I earned a graduate degree. Now I have started my career and with any luck will eventually retire with decent income.

I realize that my children will probably have to work 100 times harder than I did just to get the same out of life. Sometimes I wonder if they will be successful, but I hope they will.

I guess this is one of the prices we have to pay living in the global marketplace.


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## cchase86 (Mar 7, 2006)

shwinn8 said:


> are aren't Yeti frames made in USA? i know the Rotec RL9 is


Most of the Yeti's (potentially all?) are made in Taiwan.

One of the reasons I went for Titus over Yeti. I decided if I was going to drop that kind of money on a frame I'd rather have it with a Made in USA sticker on it, even if Titus doesn't build them personally anymore.


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

11 Bravo said:


> That rules out the U.S. unless we make some major changes in our education system.
> 
> I have worked with dozens of young engineers and 80% of them are dumber than a bag of hammers and you cant tell them a dam thing because the knuckleheads think a degree makes them smart.


I graduated a couple years ago, and I'd say 1/3 of the graduates are going to be good engineers. I used to own a welding / auto shop and did other trade work before I got my degree, and the biggest issue is new engineers can't actually use tools and assume they know how things work when they actually have no practical experience. One guy I worked with was a Cornell grad and they didn't even teach him 3D modeling...

One of our courses was global engineering, where we learned about the global market, and tried to outsource a widget to either India or China. I got stuck working with an Indian tool maker, who makes some stuff for IBM. We had them make a multi tool with no moving parts and a magnet to stick to the fridge. They outsourced design work to a Chinese company. It took 3 or 4 iterations before they came up with a design that could open a bottle. They couldn't find a magnet that was strong enough to stick their own tool to the fridge. After an entire semester of working with these idiots, we were left with a multi tool of questionable quality, at best. Not only that, but we had to have IBM call them and threaten them to get our tool made on time. The results of most of the class's projects was similar.

So anyway, it IS far too easy to get an engineering degree in the US, and about 1/3 of grads can't understand calculus well enough to qualify as engineers, IMO. As bad as that seems, it's far worse in other places...


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

jollybeggar said:


> Lets start by voting out the incumbents. That will send a message to Washington that we want real change not just party change. Change that will help all U.S. citizens not just the special interest groups.


That's right! In one year, the current administration hasn't saved us from the past 8 years of complete idiocy. Vote them out! :madman:


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

greasemeat said:


> Pivots are from asia. Specialized, Titus & now apparently Mr. "handmade in usa" Cannondale are. How much is that new Giant carbon rig? Show me these "lower costs". Bikes are costing more, not less - even Giants which is recockulous btw
> 
> It's fine to disbelieve the hype that made in USA = better, but you also need to dismiss claims of asia = lower prices


Titus has bikes made in Taiwan since Kinesys shut down their Oregon plant back in 2005. At first they had no choice, in all honesty.

Now, their carbon fibre bikes are Made in China (as most of CF bikes nowadays), their El Guapo is indeed made at Taiwan (again, Kinesys, I think) since it was launched in 2007...

But their aluminum bikes are made in SAPA's Oregon plant (same as Turner), their Ti bikes are made in Chatanooga, TN and their custom Ti fabrication is made in the People's Republic of Arizona... right under the same roof as the guy marketing them, the guy doing assembly (all their bikes are still assembled in the US) and the guy designing the bikes.

I'd say that Titus contributes to more jobs in the US than Turner does, for example... it your choice to choose which philosophy suits you better.

Davec... I could tell you stories of magnificent eff ups from engineers from all over the world, included the US. Not just that side of the planet. People are people, we will eff it up and it's not remotely related to where they studied.

Generally, I'll go for stuff made in my own country, then next best option. In this case (bikes) it was...


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

Warp said:


> Davec... I could tell you stories of magnificent eff ups from engineers from all over the world, included the US. Not just that side of the planet. People are people, we will eff it up and it's *not remotely related to where they studied.*


You're right, who cares where a degree comes from. I gots mine for $50 on the 'netz and I'm good an engeneeer as anyone!!! 

I'm not saying the Indians and Chinese can't be good engineers, but the ones I worked with were not, and they were lazy as $hit to boot. I think I would have had better results working with most US high school students enrolled in their 1st engineering graphics class.

I also said only 1/3 of US engineers are decent, and another 1/3 don't deserve their degrees. It's not like I'm being nationalistic or racist. Of course everyone is human and f's up on a regular basis.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

davec113 said:


> You're right, who cares where a degree comes from. I gots mine for $50 on the 'netz and I'm good an engeneeer as anyone!!!
> 
> I'm not saying the Indians and Chinese can't be good engineers, but the ones I worked with were not, and they were lazy as $hit to boot. I think I would have had better results working with most US high school students enrolled in their 1st engineering graphics class.
> 
> I also said only 1/3 of US engineers are decent, and another 1/3 don't deserve their degrees. It's not like I'm being nationalistic or racist. Of course everyone is human and f's up on a regular basis.


My apologies... internet is so unidimensional that it read a bit different. Thanks for clarifying!


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## ak_cowboy (Nov 17, 2008)

You can always go with handmade cycles (Wolfhound)...
Does anyone know where Konas are primarily put together?


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## rotten1 (Jun 25, 2007)

*Here is a thought...*



Ninja Otter said:


> Ok so I went to the Sea Otter Classic on friday. Loved it and didnt want to leave. So I was talking to one of the guys at Elsworth about there bikes and he said that the carbon fiber bikes are made over seas. Then he also said cant remember which bike it was but one of there bikes the parts are made here and then the parts are assembled over seas then shipped back. One of the reasons i was looking at Elsworth was that they say made in the USA. Its just been bothering me. What other brands say that there made in america but not realy technicaly made here. Am I being picky?


Instead of getting a ton of opinions that may or may not be correct, or even make sense, or even on topic, why don't you contact the bike company that you are interested in and ask them what they actually do for manufacturing. More than likely they will tell you what you need to know. I know, it's crazy, but just a thought...


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## JonnySpitz (Mar 9, 2009)

davec113 said:


> I graduated a couple years ago, and I'd say 1/3 of the graduates are going to be good engineers. I used to own a welding / auto shop and did other trade work before I got my degree, and the biggest issue is new engineers can't actually use tools and assume they know how things work when they actually have no practical experience. One guy I worked with was a Cornell grad and they didn't even teach him 3D modeling...
> 
> One of our courses was global engineering, where we learned about the global market, and tried to outsource a widget to either India or China. I got stuck working with an Indian tool maker, who makes some stuff for IBM. We had them make a multi tool with no moving parts and a magnet to stick to the fridge. They outsourced design work to a Chinese company. It took 3 or 4 iterations before they came up with a design that could open a bottle. They couldn't find a magnet that was strong enough to stick their own tool to the fridge. After an entire semester of working with these idiots, we were left with a multi tool of questionable quality, at best. Not only that, but we had to have IBM call them and threaten them to get our tool made on time. The results of most of the class's projects was similar.
> 
> So anyway, it IS far too easy to get an engineering degree in the US, and about 1/3 of grads can't understand calculus well enough to qualify as engineers, IMO. As bad as that seems, it's far worse in other places...


+10000. Our universities are churning out some very capable engineers these days, and many many terrible ones. The terrible engineers are the worst because they become managers very quickly and are in control of things they know nothing about. They do things like outsourcing to even bigger idiots. Brilliant!


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

there's always SOPWAMTOS it's a cool little circle/dare I say movement...
SocietyOfPeopleWhoActuallyMakeTheirOwnShit. Cool bikes and ideas outta Norcal


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

JonnySpitz said:


> The terrible engineers are the worst because they become managers very quickly and are in control of things they know nothing about.


Yes, the ones that can kiss ass become managers. I was just fired by one of these engineering dep't managers who can't do calculus or even understand everything I'm working on. He lied to the HR guy to get me fired as a result of his nepotism.

I think the biggest problem we face is ethical, not technical.


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## AZ-X (Feb 16, 2004)

I'm rebuilding my race/trail bike using a Titus Racer X again. I had one once before for a very short time, but I didn't like the lack of travel (only 80mm at the time) or the performance of the shock because it felt too much like a good Ti hardtail and not enough of the cush I was looking for...

--Anyway, back to the point. I'm now building up a Racer X 100mm with a platform shock and I wanted to do my best to buy American for as many components as I could. I was very sad to discover that I would not likely be able to do this and still have the lightweight racing/trail, custom dream-bike that I wanted to have. The quality and reliability of some of the components actually made by US companies here in the US just isn't there--when I was able to source those US made components at all. So I made the decision to keep the core and moving parts as American as possible, but stay pragmatic in my pursuit of the ideal. That meant spending a bit more money, but it also meant some very good quality stuff and an education in what actually still gets made in the USA today.

My frame is an all aluminum Titus Racer-X 100 (USA hand-built, 2005 model) that I was able to pick up in brand new condition from a seller on Craig's List. My shocks are a new SID Race up front and a Manitou S-Type SR in rear. _My headset, bottom bracket and disc hubs are Chris King._ (Still a bastion of good quality after all these years and still 100% made in the USA if I'm not mistaken).

My bars and seatpost are Easton CNT carbon (made at their Taiwan factory, but some of the best carbon fiber in the world is also made there). Stem is a Ritchey 4-Axis WCS (Ritchey is a huge outsourcer so I have no clue here). My spokes and rims are Wheelsmith and NoTubes ZTR 355s (probably made in China). My cranks are Canadian Race Face Deus (been runnng RaceFace cranks for nearly 15 years now--they've never let me down) and my pedals are Crank Bros. Candy SLs with USA made, CNCd custom Ti spindles . My cassette, chain and shifters are SRAM (XX cassette and front derailleur that I thankfully got cheap--who knows where all those parts are made), but my rings are made by the French company Specialites TA--mainly because I couldn't bring myself to go with the already overpriced XX cranks that have a proprietary BCD/chainring standard just so I could run 42/28 rings.

My saddle is a Selle Italia XC Gel Flow (just fits me the best--been my favorite saddle for years and I decided not to compromise here...), my brakes are the new, Italian 2010 Formula The One (combination of the most power at the lowest weight and highest performance and reliability I've either owned or tried so far). My tires are Specialized 2Bliss (currently the Renegade S-Works and Control models).

As you can see, I tried buy American when I could and where it might count the most, but I also wanted to have the best and most reliable parts that I could find to put together a light-weight machine and not spend unecessary amounts of cash. I hear that with tires you can forget about it. They are pretty much all made in Asia or Europe now. I could have gone with custom Ti bars, seatpost and stem but, to get those that I knew were 100% made in the USA, I would have had to spend nearly 3 times as much...

All told, I made the decisions the way I think that most Americans do. I tried to buy American where I could and it was practical, but I also purchased items that I felt the most comfortable with and could ultimately afford when it came down to it.


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## Fisher4sure (Apr 21, 2010)

*You Want Usa Made? You Got It!*

http://tetcycles.com/ nothin gmore to say cept.. I bought a bike made by this guy in 1986 .still ridin it ( he was building for an upstart........ wink wink......named Gary Fisher back then.. ).. sell out!..OMG ! Of course all the components.. well most of them were made in Japan.. but.. hey.. they are still going strong.. I WILL NOT BUY ANYTHING MADE IN CHINA!

FISHER 4 SURE!! I ride a hardtail!!


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## jjcools (Apr 13, 2006)

roc865 said:


> do they make hardtails?


Ventana does


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## shwinn8 (Feb 25, 2006)

http://www.foesracing.com/#/modernmarvels


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## AZ-X (Feb 16, 2004)

Quick edit on my brake setup: 

I ended up going with the new Formula RX brakes instead of The Ones after trying them on a friend's bike. They have just about the same MONSTER stopping power that The One brakes that I tried have and they use the same pads, rotors and hose fittings. They also came in white and red, white and blue, black and red or black and blue--and I got them for a steal at only $80.00 per end shipped from a seller on Ebay. Couldn't justify spending $400-500 for a pair of The Ones with less than a 100g difference in weight for front and rear combined with that deal waving in my face...  I'll soon post pics...


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## canonshooter (May 10, 2009)

When I am looking to purchase something I typically buy the best quality that I can afford. If I can get said item Made in the USA then all the better. I ride an Ellsworth and want to add a Turner to my garage as well!! We live in a Global Economy now folks. The goal is to better match our exports vs. our imports! As of April 2010 we have a trade deficit of over $40B dollars!!


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## EsHan13 (Jun 12, 2004)

*Why is this a sensitive issue for some?*

I don't understand why this issue always turns into such a heated debate. Why is it any better or worse that an American would want to buy American? It's not any different than a German wanting to buy German, Japanese wanting to buy Japanese, or Brazilian wanting to buy Brazilian.

Since I'm an American of Asian descent, I go out of my way to check labels and purchase items that are made in the USA. At the same time, I have my preferences when it comes to certain items:

1) Bike frames, I like made in the USA. Call it a bias, but yes, I think they are "better." Just look at the welds/craftsmanship of Moots, Seven, Intense, Erikson, Vanilla, Litespeed, IF, etc., and tell me who else compares.

2) Bike components, I'm a Shimano guy for drive train, American where I can for other components (i.e. headset, bottom bracket, seat post, stem, hubs)

3) Dress Suits, I like made in Italy or made in the USA.

4) Electronics, I prefer Korean companies.

5) Automobiles, I prefer Japanese brands but would consider Korean as well.

6) Casual clothing, I like made in the USA or Canada. Example, when it comes to blue jeans, if they aren't made in the USA, I'm not buying them.

7) Chocolates, Switzerland or Belgium are great. See's candy from the USA is great too.

8) Dress shoes, hiking boots, made in Italy is a preference.

I don't think there is anything wrong in wanting to buy/having a preference for items that are made in one's own country. It's not just Americans that feel that way and that's fine too. It's the pride you have in your country and your fellow countrymen. At the same time, certain countries are just renowned for particular items and rightfully so. Get the best for your hard earned money, and many times, that happens to be made in the USA.


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## canonshooter (May 10, 2009)

You have expanded on my point well. Thank you!


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## islander (Jan 21, 2004)

Nobody has brought up the environmental footprint of coal-hungry China vs. G8 competitors. For example, Turners are made in Oregon with hydropower and recycled content, meaning there's less than half the CO2 per frame than a Chinese Ibis Mojo.

It's not about quality - US and asia can make a fine product. It's about employment base, wise use of natural resource and making things in the most sustainable manner. The US, Germany, France and UK environmental reg's go way deeper than asia for governing what can go into the air and water around manufacturing facilities.

Like the other posters, I'm doing my best to keep china off my bike where possible. Derailleurs, shifters and riserbars are still tough to crack but with greater demand this too will change.

You can see the shift beginning with companies like WeatherTech moving jobs back to US. BaileyWorks bags' main marketing point is US-made. You can see it in the Oregon riders choose bike lights from US dad trying to make ends meet.

You have to speak with your dollar, because it is your vote. Think about what you stand for and the change you'd like to see around you, and vote for that.


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## p.doering (Aug 1, 2008)

As far as I'm concerned, the full-fledged, honest, straightforward, reputable American bike companies left standing are: Turner, Intense, Ventana, Moots, Seven, and Indie Fab. Then you've got your master builders, like Eriksen, Strong, 3D/Herting, Curtlo, Vulture, Iglehart, Teesdale, Vicious, Spot, Lynskey, etc that offer basic models with some level of customization. Then you've got any of hundreds of highly skilled one-man builders more than capable of turning out a fully custom frame at a negotiable rate.

...interestingly enough, a surprisingly large number of all these people emerged from the massive talent pool of Fat Chance & its spinoff Merlin when Fat's traditional steel hardtail ran out of a market in the late 90's. All those framebuilders couldn't necessarily build, finish and ship a frame across the world for $41 like the chinese do (which you eventually pay anywhere from $200-$1500 for), but they could build a more precise and fine-tuned frame for a discerning customer actually worth the money you're paying, and so the high-end niche market remains primarily domestic with regard to the number of foreign/domestic producers.

Though specialized & trek do consume most of the market with their cheap chinese stuff.


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## Duke of Earl (Apr 29, 2008)

Fisher4sure said:


> http://tetcycles.com/ I WILL NOT BUY ANYTHING MADE IN CHINA!
> 
> 
> > Have a cell phone? How about that computer you wrote your note on? Or your car (I haven't done the proper research to back it up but I believe the vast majority of components in a GM car are sourced from Asia)?
> ...


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

Good post Duke...for sure pay attention to country-of-origin, but you really can't live-and-die by it or you'll just be frustrated. I try to reward companies who maintain their traditional manufacturing in the traditional place...be it an Italian saddle or Oregon-made hiking boots. I really hate companies who build a reputation on manufacturing in one place, then quietly run off to asia for the slave labor.

And yes, getting out for a good ride definitely re-sets the mood.


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## dopaminer (Mar 21, 2009)

Duke of Earl said:


> Fisher4sure said:
> 
> 
> > http://tetcycles.com/ I WILL NOT BUY ANYTHING MADE IN CHINA!
> ...


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## DocAltie (Feb 7, 2006)

Buy the product because it's a good product. Don't buy it for politics.

I run a Lynskey frame because it's a great riding frame, I can afford it, and I am at the age where I may not build another bike for myself ever again. I think it is great that Lynskey is 100% US made. ESI grips are 100% USA too and that's what I use. I have run a Jeff Jones handbar for 5 years... 100% US made.

That stated, there is a Sette seatpost in that Lynskey frame. There is a RaceFace stem hooking that Jones bar to the frame. There is an Origin8 carbon fork made over seas on the bike. Vuelta wheelset... Tektro levers, Avid brakes.... all Taiwan.

Bottom line is that the bicycle business is powered by Asian manufacturing. You can't get around it. Many of the products are just fine. That Sette APX seatpost is milled out of one piece of billet and weighs the same as a Thompson. To me, it's not worth paying 4x for a seatpost from a USA mfg. Same with a stem... hubs... etc....


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## tg (Feb 1, 2006)

Ninja Otter said:


> Ok so I went to the Sea Otter Classic on friday. Loved it and didnt want to leave. So I was talking to one of the guys at Elsworth about there bikes and he said that the carbon fiber bikes are made over seas. Then he also said cant remember which bike it was but one of there bikes the parts are made here and then the parts are assembled over seas then shipped back. One of the reasons i was looking at Elsworth was that they say made in the USA. Its just been bothering me. What other brands say that there made in america but not realy technicaly made here. Am I being picky?


TURNER :thumbsup:


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## canonshooter (May 10, 2009)

p.doering said:


> As far as I'm concerned, the full-fledged, honest, straightforward, reputable American bike companies left standing are: Turner, Intense, Ventana, Moots, Seven, and Indie Fab. Then you've got your master builders, like Eriksen, Strong, 3D/Herting, Curtlo, Vulture, Iglehart, Teesdale, Vicious, Spot, Lynskey, etc that offer basic models with some level of customization. Then you've got any of hundreds of highly skilled one-man builders more than capable of turning out a fully custom frame at a negotiable rate.


Why did you not mention Ellsworth in that group???


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## Mudd (Apr 22, 2002)

Intense: http://www.intensecycles.com/


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