# Are We at the Mercy of the Local Bike Shop?



## jscott36 (Nov 21, 2010)

I just got a new full suspension bike after riding a rigid for 24yrs. While I could handle most all repairs on my old bike, this new bike seems like a completely different ball game.

When cleaning the bike I squeezed the brake lever with the wheel off and this caused the hydraulic calipers to close shut (wheel was off).

I was unsuccessful fixing it myself despite web research and effort and found myself at 2 bike shops. One led me to purchasing $250 brakes, when in fact the old ones were working just fine after he fixed them. He just planted doubt in my mind from the beginning and I went with it. Mind you I spent $800 for the bike which was very well maintained.

All I wanted is to get my brake back together and working, and I ended up spending all this money.

What has been your experience? When you are confused and looking for honest help are you being led to spend more money than you need to?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jscott36 said:


> I was unsuccessful fixing it myself despite web research and effort and found myself at 2 bike shops. One led me to purchasing $250 brakes, when in fact the old ones were working just fine after he fixed them. He just planted doubt in my mind from the beginning and I went with it. Mind you I spent $800 for the bike which was very well maintained.
> 
> All I wanted is to get my brake back together and working, and I ended up spending all this money.
> 
> What has been your experience? When you are confused and looking for honest help are you being led to spend more money than you need to?


You could have always just said "no thanks". I wasn't there so I don't know the situation but it sounds like the guy might have only been trying to do an honest job by recommending better brakes. A good shop wouldn't sell you something that you didn't need or want but this may not have been a good shop.

Knowledge is enabling, the more you learn the less you need to trust strangers.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

If you had avid's on your bike the lbs was right. 

Fun aside, everything new has a learning curve but it not that hard once you done it a couple of times.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

No, you're not at the mercy of your LBS. There are very few things you can't easily do yourself, once you become familiar with your bike.


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## jscott36 (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks. When I called the shop and asked if he serviced my model brake after I told him my predicament he said I might want to just upgrade my brakes. He hadn't even seen the bike yet. From the get go he had me doubt the integrity of my brakes.

Personally, the LBS is the last place I want to be. It may be old school, but I believe a bike is something that can/should be maintainable my the owner. I agree about knowledge being enabling, but for first time "modern" bike owners out there I there must be an easier way. 

I mean, who would think that squeezing a brake lever when the wheel is off is something to avoid? And to solve the resulting problem you need to go the the LBS?

People are so helpful in forums. I wish I could buy everyone that comments on my threads a beer. Regarding fixing bikes, I'm wondering if there is a specific forum for this. Have you heard of such a thing?

p.s. I heard about the Avids. Mine were Hayes Ryde Stroker. While its a budget brake it does get some good reviews and they were in perfect condition.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

H


jscott36 said:


> Thanks. When I called the shop and asked if he serviced my model brake after I told him my predicament he said I might want to just upgrade my brakes. He hadn't even seen the bike yet. From the get go he had me doubt the integrity of my brakes.
> 
> Personally, the LBS is the last place I want to be. It may be old school, but I believe a bike is something that can/should be maintainable my the owner. I agree about knowledge being enabling, but for first time "modern" bike owners out there I there must be an easier way.
> 
> ...


What brakes did you have on the bike? It may help assess what happened. Unfortuantely you learned the hard way that you don't squeeze the levers with nothing in between the pads, at least don't do a full squeeze. This is common knowledge that is not common to those who first start using hydraulic brakes. In the future, place a plastic pad blocker between the pads or a credit card, but make sure whatever it is does not have crud or any kind of oil on it that will contaminate pads, spray the surface with rubbing alcohol if you are not sure.

Most hydraulic brakes, especially shimano, are very easy to bleed and maintain. Get the bleed kit, watch a youtube video and you will be on your way.

Some hydraulic brakes suck--Avid for example--the shop may have done you a favor if they sold you Shimano.

If you find yourself in this situation again, first open the bleed port at the lever, wrap a paper towel around it, then remove the oads at the caliper, use an 7-8mm box wrench to press the cylinders back. If you see a proturding metal post--it is not the cylinder--the cylynder is the larger flat surface behind it. By having opened the bleed port at the lever you give the fluid a place to go so that it doesn't resist the piston whenyou push. If everything feels squishy afterwards then di a bleed. Sometimes this doesn't work sbecause the piston has come out too far and won't retract.

Don't squeeze the kever with nithing between the pads.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

jscott36 said:


> ...I mean, who would think that squeezing a brake lever when the wheel is off is something to avoid? And to solve the resulting problem you need to go the the LBS?...


All part of the learning curve.

I was happy to "be at the mercy" of my LBS today. Last night I found the lower mounting bolt on the rear shock had snapped and it is a proprietary bolt. Called the LBS and had them order a new one. An hour later the owner called to tell me he was taking one off of another bike and to come pick it up. Lovin' the service!!!


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## jscott36 (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks CJ. I'll be sure to apply these tips. There were selling points that I took into consideration. The new brakes are Shimano Deore as opposed to Hayes Ryde Stroker. While still a budget brake, if I keep the bike long enough and bleed them myself if I need to I can save money this way. So, I'm not worse off, just didn't necessarily need the new brakes.

I appreciate you mentioning the ease at which I should be able to maintain the Shimanos. Hopefully I'll be able to master this part of the maintenance.


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## elcaro1101 (Sep 1, 2011)

New tech can be intimidating, but if your toolkit and wrenching skills are up to it, some quick research can get you going.

With that said...

Any reputable shop should have taken less than five minutes to complete the job of spreading your pads out, and offered you one of these to take home for a few dollars.










Also, as others have said, you had the opportunity to say no to a whole new brake setup. Curious, what brake set did a LBS set you up with for $250?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

There are a lot of great videos online, and the Park Tool site has valuable tips as well. I'd suspect you can do almost all the maintenance work yourself, although sometimes there's a tool required that you won't have. Over time though those tools (if purchased) will pay for themselves in saved labor charges.

I would say I'm not particularly pleased with how the LBS ultimately handled this. It's probably a 30-second fix to spread the pads (unless there's bleeding required), so to push new brakes is borderline douchebaggery, especially if yours were working fine before the incident.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

phlegm said:


> I would say I'm not particularly pleased with how the LBS ultimately handled this. It's probably a 30-second fix to spread the pads (unless there's bleeding required), so to push new brakes is borderline douchebaggery, especially if yours were working fine before the incident.


The mechanic at the lbs did fix them, no one forced the brakes on the op, at least I hope not.



jscott36 said:


> I was unsuccessful fixing it myself despite web research and effort and found myself at 2 bike shops. One led me to purchasing $250 brakes, *when in fact the old ones were working just fine after he fixed them.*


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Ah, that's a bit better, but still smells a bit.

I get the upsell if the OP complained of other braking issues, i.e. frequent bleeding, poor response, etc, but if working fine it's not a particularly good story.


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## jscott36 (Nov 21, 2010)

Great responses guys, thanks. I feel lucky to have received such helpful advice. 

I think the red flag here is that when I spoke with the tech over the phone he said I might want to just upgrade the brakes. My call to the shop was just to see if they service my type of brakes so I could bring the bike in to get it fixed. Very early on in my dialog with him he was suggesting I buy something.

So, the tech hadn't even seen my bike yet he already wanted to sell me new brakes. I'll check around to see what type of reputation the shop has but I'm thinking he could have handled my situation differently.

I know I'm being hard on this LBS. I don't mean to be as the tech helped me out in other ways. 

Don't get me wrong, though. I accept full responsibility for making the decision to purchase the Deore brakes. I'm sure they'll work fine and I'll be better off. Certainly if I keep the bike down the road. But as a new owner I do feel somewhat vulnerable to sales oriented shops when my knowledge is limited.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

At least they did not unload some crap brakes on you, Deores are great brakes.

And as said before, all part of the learning curve and you will find great help here.


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## jscott36 (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks. It's good to hear you say these are great brakes. Means a lot from someone like yourself who's actually in the MTB community (as opposed to a Mag review). I like the idea that they're easy to service.

You're right, they didn't unload some terrible brakes and the installation and service was excellent (same day).


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## -Todd- (Jun 13, 2011)

Get a book about MTB maintenance, "Zinn and the art of ....." Is real helpful for common and uncommon stuff. Buy tools and learn how to use them, you will be self sufficient on the trail and in yer garage.


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## jscott36 (Nov 21, 2010)

I was just looking into this, actually. I'll check out the Zinn book. Decided real quick I wasn't going to pay to be a member of Bicycletutor.com.

All this research led me to a video where a guy recommended Loctite when mounting disc brakes. So, now I'm wondering, did the LBS that installed my Deore brakes use Loctite?

Gonna go check..be right back.

Yup! Good deal. Now just going to have to figure out if I compromised it by taking the allen bolt out. The learning never ends.


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

jscott36 said:


> So, now I'm wondering, did the LBS that installed my Deore brakes use Loctite?
> 
> Gonna go check..be right back.
> 
> Yup! Good deal. Now just going to have to figure out if I compromised it by taking the allen bolt out. The learning never ends.


Loc-tite is intended as a one time use thread locking compound. It works by hardening and/or expanding in the threads, to allow the threads to be "seized" together. It is a chemical designed to break free under sufficient stress (such as a wrench or other tool to remove the screw/bolt/nut). Once removed, it's effectiveness is compromised.

That said - I have never thread locked my brakes, and I have never had a problem. Proper torque is more critical than thread locker.

If you do want to use thread locker - keep in mind, there are different levels of thread locking compound.

Green - Wicking. Will travel up the threads and lock something that has already been assembled.

Purple - low strength, just intended to help prevent something from coming loose. Not for anything critical or important really.

Blue - low strength, but stronger than purple. Fills the threads more than purple. Bolt/screw can be removed with basic hand tools. In my opinion, the most common and versatile of the types.

Red - HIGH strength. There is no need to use this ANYWHERE on a bicycle, and it COULD cause you to strip out parts. This thread locker requires the parts to be heated (over 500* if i recall) to be removed, and sometimes, basic hand tools cannot remove it. Again - not for use on a bicycle at all!

Any thread locker, you do not need to saturate the bolt/screw/nut. Usually a drop on the threads is sufficient to complete the task.

The reason you should not squeeze the lever on DISC brakes without the wheel on, is because of the basic function of hydraulic calipers. As your pads wear, the brakes automatically compensate by moving in further and further (automobile too!) when you squeeze the brakes without the rotor in there, the master cylinder (the lever) assumes the pads were worn, and so the caliper automatically adjusts and the hydraulic fluid flows into the caliper to keep the pistons pushed out. This is also why you have a master cylinder. The fluid reservoir is intended to give the extra fluid needed to compensate for the pads wearing.
Your automobile does the same thing. When a shop changes the pads on your vehicle, they must spread the caliper pistons apart. If you had your rotor off your car, it would do the same thing your bike did!


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

A lot of us intentionally run brakes too loose. In a crash, its better to have the brake rotate than snap off. They definitely dont need any sort of thread locker! Just tighten them to where they wont rotate too easily by hand. You dont want them shifting around on you while riding, so just tight enough to stop that is plenty.

Theres really no good place to use threadlocker on a bike at all. Sometimes rotor bolts have a friction compound on them, but thats not quite thread locker and is reuseable.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

Which model Shimano Deore brakes did the LBS set you up with? Also did the set include rotors? If it was without rotors $250 is pretty much the best model of hydro brakes Shimano makes (XTR or Saint)! Does the $250 include labor costs for installing them?

I have four (used to be 5) LBS within reasonable driving distance. Two of them are extremely helpful and I have at times been talked out of spending money with the help they gave me. One of the others is ridiculously expensive, the other I have had a few poor experiences at but nothing I would consider a big deal. The 5th which is now closed had great mechanics but the sales associates were what you'd expect at a car dealership. I could have seen them trying to sell me something I didn't need or above a fair price.


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## MnemonicGhost (Oct 30, 2015)

I was a firestone grease monkey in my first career. Changing oil, new tires, brakes, etc. So I actually knew about the disc brakes thing. Some things are common knowledge, some you just have to learn. So chalk that up to a 250 dollar learning experience because to me it sounds like that guy took a little advantage of you there. Maybe he just read you wrong and thought you were looking for an upgrade. Maybe he saw a "mark" coming. Either way, it's a good lesson for future experiences. Also, I always a good practice to ask salesman "*But do I need it?*" and it's always good to get a 2nd opinion.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

One Pivot said:


> A lot of us intentionally run brakes too loose. In a crash, its better to have the brake rotate than snap off. They definitely dont need any sort of thread locker! Just tighten them to where they wont rotate too easily by hand. You dont want them shifting around on you while riding, so just tight enough to stop that is plenty.
> 
> Theres really no good place to use threadlocker on a bike at all. Sometimes rotor bolts have a friction compound on them, but thats not quite thread locker and is reuseable.


This is where you want to use thread locker. In this situation you're not tightening the bolts very much, so thread locker keeps them from coming any looser. Plumbers tape also works well.


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## FASTFAT (Oct 22, 2015)

just like a car ect...don't touch the brakes if the drum is off or no disc


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

jscott36 said:


> p.s. I heard about the Avids. Mine were Hayes Ryde Stroker. While its a budget brake it does get some good reviews and they were in perfect condition.


In the other thread you said they were Avid brakes. How does one make that mistake?


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> This is where you want to use thread locker. In this situation you're not tightening the bolts very much, so thread locker keeps them from coming any looser. Plumbers tape also works well.


Guess I got lucky since I ride with my brakes "loose" since the early 90's with out thread locker and never had an issue.


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## jscott36 (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks DethWshBkr. I appreciate all the info - it was like a mini-tutorial for me. *I'm curious, do you have a torque wrench you can recommend? *This sounds like something I could use.

Thanks One Pivot. That's +1 for the no need for Loctite. I'll take this into consideration for sure.

Hi Fajita Dave. The brakes are Shimano Deore M615. The cost breakdown was: $90 front, $110 rear, $30 install. Total $230. Yes, this is without rotors.

Sorry, I was $20 over when I said $250 (had other work done and wasn't looking at receipt). *What do you think I could have had for $230 installed?* He did say I would be getting an "upgrade" but I came to learn later that the Deore (although very good) was still a budget brake.

MnemonicGhost, thanks. "But do I need it?" I'll run this through my mind the next time I'm in any shop and likely to speak with a salesperson 

MountainCycleShawn and FastFat, Great tips, thanks. I think I'm in the very early stages of being a seasoned pro  MCS, I didn't say I had Avid but someone quoted a funny joke about them, that being an "O" missing- Avid = AvOid


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

I don't think you got jammed on the price. You just paid bike shop price. For $230 you could have bought Shimano XT 8000 from Jensonusa. I haven't looked at what the Deores go for online, but guessing in the $60-70 per brake range, for the low end. The XT would have ice tech pads, too. Ok, maybe you got jammed a little.

Hayes brakes used to be good,back in the day, don't kniw anything about them today. Still, it could have been an easy and low cost fix.

In the future, if you are going to call, then call several shops if there are more than one in your area. Unless you are calling for a quote on a specific service, e.g., bleeding brakes, then I would walk in.

If you are really bent out of shape about this, it can be an opportunity as well. If the owner works in the store ask to speak with him and show him price differences, but more importantly explain that this is all new technology to you but you have learned that it is possible to fix the problem you had, and pretty cheaply too. Maybe he will work out a deal for you on something else.


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## tualmbr (Jul 18, 2015)

Being a service provider is hard - you do the nice, cheap, quick thing and just spread the pads apart - send the guy on his way - then the next time he is in the dh portion of the local trail, he sees something in the way and locks up the brakes - only to find out the caliper seal was damaged during the extended engagement and now when he most needs the brakes - the caliper is leaking and fading fast. Guy comes back to your shop wanting to sue you for almost killing him. Tells all his friends to never go to your shop because you almost killed him. etc etc.

Plus if you shut down your service department every time someone walks in wanting a quick and cheap fix - all of a sudden you are 3 hours behind on the bikes that have already been in the shop waiting for major repairs for the last 10 days. It can be a very slippery slope.

This is where having a well trained and experienced staff comes in handy - if someone out on the floor can point you to a spreader and show you how to fix a small problem in 5 minutes - good - you just found your "go to" bike shop.. But at the end of the day - if the floor staff turns 1/2 of the potential brake sales into $3 brake pad spreaders - they just potentially lost $1000 and can't afford to keep the highly experienced, well trained staff around.

Maybe this is where the old adage comes from - If I fix it first - normal price. If you already tried to fix it and gave up normal price +25%, if you already tried to fix it and ended up breaking it double normal price.


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## jscott36 (Nov 21, 2010)

Very intriguing and interesting points tualmbr. Thanks. I must say the tech and staff were friendly, competent, and worked hard and I got the bike back in under 3 hours.

This actually allowed me to ride this weekend, which is the first time I had a chance to ride this new bike (Full Sus from rigid, I still think I'm dreaming).

In fact, I'm meeting with a few guys and my bike is on my rack- looks so cool, I feel like I'm in the big leagues now. So, whatever the problem I had they were able to fix it quickly (granted it was a mid-day Friday, but still). I'm happy for this turn around.

But back to my original issue, my previous brakes would have worked just fine today and I didn't need the new ones, however I'm sure they work better and they're going to be easier to maintain myself, a huge plus.

Thanks again Tualmbr. I'll take this perspective when I walk into the shop next time so I'll have a new take on the situation. I'll make an effort to do this and also bring it up with my friends for a healthy discussion.

As I head out this morning...


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

tualmbr said:


> Being a service provider is hard - you do the nice, cheap, quick thing and just spread the pads apart - send the guy on his way - then the next time he is in the dh portion of the local trail, he sees something in the way and locks up the brakes - only to find out the caliper seal was damaged during the extended engagement and now when he most needs the brakes - the caliper is leaking and fading fast. Guy comes back to your shop wanting to sue you for almost killing him. Tells all his friends to never go to your shop because you almost killed him. etc etc.
> 
> Plus if you shut down your service department every time someone walks in wanting a quick and cheap fix - all of a sudden you are 3 hours behind on the bikes that have already been in the shop waiting for major repairs for the last 10 days. It can be a very slippery slope.
> 
> ...


Is this ^ just a long way of saying you are fine with the LBS selling him something he didn't need?

How about the value of doing a free fix today, but obtaining the trust (and revenue stream) from a customer for a lifetime?


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

I think the OP has a healthy perspctive on this. The shop got his bike running quickly, he paid for that service, now he can try and cultivate that relationship. Buying parts froma shop is mor expensive.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

jscott36 said:


> Hi Fajita Dave. The brakes are Shimano Deore M615. The cost breakdown was: $90 front, $110 rear, $30 install. Total $230. Yes, this is without rotors.


Those are excellent brakes even though only "Deore." I replaced a set of Avid brakes with the Shimano Deore M615 brakes and love them. They retail for $112 front or rear so you didn't get ripped off. However, they can be found for about $50 each online. Of course thats without installation!

For Shimano, most of their better components are named "Deore." When they only say Deore its the lowest of that range but still far better than Shimano's lower end brakes. In order of quality (and price) it goes Deore, SLX, XT, XTR. You don't really get anymore braking power with the more expensive ones, mostly they're just lighter.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

All you had to do was pry the pads apart with a tire lever.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

TiGeo said:


> All you had to do was pry the pads apart with a tire lever.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I'm pretty sure he knows that by now. Remember there was a time when everyone didn't know that.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

You paid the regular retail price..I don't see that as being "jammed". I think to get a set of high-quality brakes installed for a bit over 2 bills a good deal. If you are happy with them then what is the issue? Just because the online blowout prices are less doesn't mean you got ripped off. As to the suggestion of replacing over the phone..not sure there. How do you specifically describe the issue to the tech?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## tualmbr (Jul 18, 2015)

phlegm said:


> Is this ^ just a long way of saying you are fine with the LBS selling him something he didn't need?
> 
> How about the value of doing a free fix today, but obtaining the trust (and revenue stream) from a customer for a lifetime?


It's a short way of saying that on a used bike with no known service history and a caliper piston that was over-extended - what professional bike shop would take on the liability of saying "you're just fine, spread them apart and go ride" - over the phone - without at least getting the bike in for an inspection?


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

jscott36 said:


> Thanks CJ. I'll be sure to apply these tips. There were selling points that I took into consideration. The new brakes are Shimano Deore as opposed to Hayes Ryde Stroker. While still a budget brake, if I keep the bike long enough and bleed them myself if I need to I can save money this way. So, I'm not worse off, just didn't necessarily need the new brakes.
> 
> I appreciate you mentioning the ease at which I should be able to maintain the Shimanos. Hopefully I'll be able to master this part of the maintenance.


not to make you feel bad because deores are great brakes. Sites like wiggle have XT brakes (2 levels higher) for about 159. It would take you a few hours and the elapsed to wait for them to come in and to install looking at youtube videos.

I use zinn as a base, but mainly watch a few you tube videos for each type of service.

The only thing I dont do is press bottom brackets


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tualmbr said:


> if the floor staff turns 1/2 of the potential brake sales into $3 brake pad spreaders - they just potentially lost $1000


If a shop regularly turns a $3 fix and into a $250 "fix", they deserve to be avoided IMO. Total rip-off IMO. I can't count the number of times I've spread pads. Now what if the OP ends up doing the same thing to his new brakes? Would they recommend he spend $500 on a new 'better' set? Buncha BS. No one owes it to any business to overpay for service/parts, just because this has to do with bikes doesn't make it any different.


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## Menel (Mar 15, 2015)

jscott36 said:


> Thanks DethWshBkr. I appreciate all the info - it was like a mini-tutorial for me. *I'm curious, do you have a torque wrench you can recommend? *This sounds like something I could use.
> 
> Thanks One Pivot. That's +1 for the no need for Loctite. I'll take this into consideration for sure.
> 
> ...


It's not budget parts. On the grand scheme of things, those brakes are on the high end. Better than many bikes come with. Functionally they will perform every bit as good as SLX/XT/etc.
There's very little advantage beyond Deore. Price sky rockets, benefits kind of trickle. Superficial.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Total rip-off IMO. Buncha BS.


Did anyone read the OP? The shop _did_ spread his pads, they were working perfectly _before_ the op purchased the new brakes. It was _his_ decision to buy the new ones.

Not sure why everyone is dogging on the shop, it sounds like it may actually be a pretty good one.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I guess as long as you go in with the clear realization that their main reason for existing is to separate you from your money (like any other retail business) then you're forearmed. Just like when the appliance guy tells you he can fix your dryer for $10, but for $980, you can get this one that's SOOOO much better....

Caveat emptor. Take anything someone in retail tells you with a huge grain of salt and don't fall for the unnecessary upsell game. 
Also don't ever go spending a bunch of extra money you don't need to spend in order to 'cultivate a relationship' with a shop. Do you do this with any other service provider? "I think that stripper really likes me".


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Caveat emptor. Take anything someone in retail tells you with a huge grain of salt


Depends on the shop, I built my reputation on hiring people who new their stuff and treating people right. If someone walked in my shop and I fixed their brakes (maybe for free?) but the customer still had doubts and was asking about an upgrade I sure wouldn't call it unethical or in any way wrong to sell them some better ones.

None of us know exactly what went down there but you have to do a lot of extrapolating to say that the shop wronged the op in any way.


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## owensjs (May 21, 2009)

The interesting thing is some folks seem worked up that the shop sold OP a new set of brakes when they could have simply said on the phone that they worked on the brakes and when he arrived, spread the pads apart and sent him on his way.

However, take a browse through just about any brake thread on MTBR and you'll see a very similar thing:
OP "I have (insert any non-Shimano brake here) brakes and I accidentally squeezed the lever with the wheel out" or "I'm having a problem with my non-Shimano brake".
Everyone else "boo, get rid of those brakes and buy Shimanos, problem solved"

Occasionally you'll have a helpful comment or two, but for the most part the above is accurate.

slapheadmofo nailed it with his recent post.


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## -Todd- (Jun 13, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> I guess as long as you go in with the clear realization that their main reason for existing is to separate you from your money (like any other retail business) then you're forearmed. Just like when the appliance guy tells you he can fix your dryer for $10, but for $980, you can get this one that's SOOOO much better....
> 
> Caveat emptor. Take anything someone in retail tells you with a huge grain of salt and don't fall for the unnecessary upsell game.
> Also don't ever go spending a bunch of extra money you don't need to spend in order to 'cultivate a relationship' with a shop. Do you do this with any other service provider? "I think that stripper really likes me".


Love it! ^^^^

It happens all the time. Look at how a Bike / Clothing / Helmet Manufacturer specs or builds a bike or something "Woman" specific. The female contingent gets all puffed up about the idea that "So-and-So" brand recognizes the need for different stuff for women, so they get behind that brand as the second coming of Oprah Winfrey and her favourite things. "They really understand us", They "get it"....

Yeah right.

It's a business decision, with business ramifications that will net more dollars for X brand, as opposed to Y brand. Expanding the market isn't done for any other feel good reason other than it makes that company more money. Money. Money. Money.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> ...
> 
> Not sure why everyone is dogging on the shop, it sounds like it may actually be a pretty good one.


JB - I think we'll have to "agree to disagree" on this one. Obviously the OP didn't feel great after leaving the shop, given that he started this thread. That alone tells me the LBS missed the mark with this customer.

That said, we're missing context. It would be great to hear more detail about the conversation from the OP. I wonder if his visit matched either scenario:

_Scenario A - Customer Demanded New Brakes_

LBS Guy - "You're all set. I pushed the pads apart, and see no signs of leaks. I did a braking test and it seems like there's good force at the pads, so you should be fine for a while. The rotors seems true - at least to my eye, and there's no rub. I double-checked the torque on the bolts, and everything was fine. You'll need new pads at some point, and we have compatible ones up front if you want to have a look on your way out. In future, if you have the wheel out, you can pop in a spacer to avoid accidental pad squeezing. It happens. No charge for the service BTW - we hope to see you back here."

OP - "Give me new brakes now!!!"

_Scenario B - Fresh Prey_

LBS Guy - "I've pushed the pads apart, but you never know how the brakes will react at this point. These aren't the best brakes around, and a bit old, so I'd strongly recommend that you get some updated ones from Shimano."

OP - "Are my brakes bad?"

LBS Guy - "They're OK, but you'll get better modulation with the Shimanos. They're also easier to bleed - you really can't beat them. You'll notice a big difference. I've got a pair ready - I'm thinking $200-230 including labour and you're good to go."

OP - "Uh, OK, sounds good."

I'm just trying to figure out how the conversation got around to new brakes. If the OP can elaborate, that should settle it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

phlegm said:


> I'm just trying to figure out how the conversation got around to new brakes. If the OP can elaborate, that should settle it.


It could be something as simple as a mechanic saying something like "they really aren't the best brakes, Shimanos are way better" (to which I doubt anyone here would disagree) and then the op saying "I want them".

Some people like to upgrade. Some people experience buyers remorse. The shop might totally suck but the text doesn't indicate that.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

phlegm said:


> OP - "Give me new brakes now!!!"


That might be my new signature


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I think as long as you go into the LBS with basically the same mindset as when walking into an auto dealership or Sears home appliance section, you should be all set.

You're really only at the mercy of your own inability to say "no".


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## jscott36 (Nov 21, 2010)

Hi. Thank you for your comments. I called the shop first to see if they serviced my brand of brakes (Hayes Ryde Stroker). The tech was very polite and said he had to look them up. 

After a few moments he said I might want to "upgrade those" because the Hayes can be difficult to work on (I mentioned that I tried using a credit card and screw driver to separate the pads). I knew that were budget brakes but I researched the bike before I got it and they were supposed to be good for the money.

But then the tech said, "To be honest with you, I'd have to see the bike." Honesty can be nice, better late than never 

When I got to the shop I rolled the bike in, he popped it onto the stand and got to work. It wasn't long before it was fixed. There was no mention of upgrades or anything.However, he did say they worked but they're not the greatest.

So, with the "upgrade" idea planted in my head from the initial call, there was a bit of rationalizing on my part. If I got brakes that were easier to service then I could save money by doing it myself. However, I'd have to keep the bike long enough to do this (it's a 26" and I considered it a "transition bike"). 

I do accept full responsibility for making the decision to purchase the Deores. It's just that the Hayes were like new and if new brakes were never mentioned I could have used them for a long time.

So its mixed. I think they are a competent shop and professional, however as a newcomer (and a bit naive) I can sometimes be led in one way or another. 

Funny, though. when he said the Shimano's were easier to service as a selling point was he thinking about his needs or mine? After all, when I asked him if bleeding the brakes was something I could do on my own he seemed somewhat put off. No overly so, it's just that after I said it I didn't feel like I was contributing to the conversation.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Alrighty then. 100% on OP to say "No". This is called "selling".

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## GRAVELBIKE (Oct 7, 2006)

jscott36 said:


> Thanks CJ. I'll be sure to apply these tips. There were selling points that I took into consideration. The new brakes are Shimano Deore as opposed to Hayes Ryde Stroker. While still a budget brake, if I keep the bike long enough and bleed them myself if I need to I can save money this way. So, I'm not worse off, just didn't necessarily need the new brakes.
> 
> I appreciate you mentioning the ease at which I should be able to maintain the Shimanos. Hopefully I'll be able to master this part of the maintenance.


I just purchased a full-sus bike that came spec'd with Deore hydraulic discs. PLENTY of stopping power and modulation, even compared to the 4-piston SRAM Guides on my old rigid 29er.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

The tech wasn't blowing smoke. Shimanos are easier to work on than many others. In some respects, that does benefit him as the tech. Shimano's bleed procedure, in particular, is pretty straightforward. I've seen techs have a terrible time with other brands. Avid has a really complicated "advanced" bleed method that's supposed to work better than their "standard" bleed. I've watched SRAM techs showing lbs mechanics how to do it and I just walk away shaking my head, telling myself I will NEVER own Avid hydros. In some respects, that might benefit you as the owner. If you start getting into servicing your own bikes, bleeding your own brakes is something you can save a fair bit of money on. And a simpler, more straightforward bleed procedure is a big help.

I agree that the mechanic was really just doing his job. In ANY service industry, the workers aren't doing their job if they aren't educating customers about options.

That's entirely on you as the customer to decide how to handle the situation. Do your due diligence. If you feel uncertainty, ask questions and do additional research to educate yourself and separate any potential sales tactics from the truth. Don't make the big purchase immediately. Rather, come back later after you've done your research.


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## matadorCE (Jun 26, 2013)

jscott36 said:


> What has been your experience? When you are confused and looking for honest help are you being led to spend more money than you need to?


I learned early on from working on cars, sportbikes, and now bicycles to try to find info on my own first and then go to a shop as a last resort OR if I just didn't want to mess with it or have time to figure things out. Bike shops are like any other business, there are good ones and bad one and others somewhere in the middle. I usually don't patronize a shop if i'm given the upsell, but it all depends really. At least in my area no one shop can do it all for me, so I use some shops for maintenance and others for parts, demos, etc. I try not to be a shop fanboy, but rather take everything with a grain of salt and make the ultimate decision on my own.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

For anyone that hasn’t worked in a retail environment, selling things is part of everyone’s job. It’s what pays the bills that inevitably pay your paycheck. While most bike shops aren’t paying commission for selling brakes (some do on bikes), it’s still top-of-mind for many employees. In this case, when I was a shop-rat, having someone come in with older, but functioning brakes with a brake issue wouldn’t have necessarily prompted me to recommend better, easier to service brakes, especially with a simple fix such as spreading the pads out and a test ride to ensure they worked correctly ($20 at most). With that being said, I also saw so much crap come in that was older and not maintained that often, it was just easier for all parties involved to recommend new whatever which sounds like the case here. Anyone can say no to any service, whether it be on your car or your bike. About the only time we refused to fix something was in a Wal-Goose type situation where the repair was more than the value of the bike or the bike was in such bad shape that we would have to fix more than what the customer wanted to feel ok about letting it leave after the shop putting their name on the repair and they refused. Lots of folks jumping in on the price because online blow-out pricing is much lower…well..that is a completely different discussion all together that has gotten worn out here on mtbr. In summary, shops make money by selling things for more than they buy them for. They don’t buy from the blowout places, they buy from places that have already marked-up the product so the pricing will be higher. Its “buyer beware” on this stuff and nothing wrong will asking politely if the shop can do better on the pricing..many will to make the sale (see first two sentences of this post). Charging and having a customer pay full retail doesn’t constitute getting “ripped off”..it shows that the market bore the asking price at that moment and it’s the buyer’s job to make the decision of buy/not-buy. I just don't see that the shop ripped anyone off here..but certainly understand it does happen.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I think I generally agree with you TiGeo, and the term "ripped off" is certainly too strong here. Those brakes will be great, and the price is "shop reasonable".

However, they simply weren't required.

I touched on earlier that a key to retail is maintaining revenue streams from customers - especially for smaller, service-oriented local shops. So I can either push for unnecessary brakes now and pocket my margin of $230, or I can offer reasonable advice now, and look forward to continued business from this customer going forward.

Example: I don't ride on the road much, and was eyeballing a bike with an Ultegra groupset. The LBS owner stopped me, and told me that 105 would be plenty for my use - and it is. The owner probably cost himself ~$500 with the bike, but gained a customer (me) for life. I've also referred many friends to him because I trust him.

My take from this thread, is that while the OP has learned quite a bit, and ultimately takes responsibility for the purchase, I suspect he feels somewhat taken.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Understand and agree for the most part...but are you saying that selling you a bike that you liked/looked at with Ultegra would have been caused you to not be a customer for life?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

No, you are right - I would have been pleased with the bike and service had I chosen the Ultegra. No negatives whatsoever. However having with the "105 guidance", I was ultra-satisfied. (Uh, that sounds wrong, but you get the point.)


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

phlegm said:


> I think I generally agree with you TiGeo, and the term "ripped off" is certainly too strong here.


Yeah, I'll also agree in this case. 
It would be one thing if the shop's first recommendation was replacing the brakes and they didn't bother even trying to fix them. Definitely another if they did the fix and then threw in the obligatory upsell attempt. That's just part of the game; gotta learn to say 'no' unless it's something you really feel you need BEFORE talking to the guy selling them.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Did anyone read the OP? The shop _did_ spread his pads, they were working perfectly _before_ the op purchased the new brakes. It was _his_ decision to buy the new ones.
> 
> Not sure why everyone is dogging on the shop, it sounds like it may actually be a pretty good one.


I totally missed this point--thanks for identifying it. In that case, there really isn't an issue here. it costs more for parts at the LBS, that is well known. He will be better off with Shimano brakes over time.

Personally I don't mind hearing options, which is what the sell-up can be. I can always say no.

This point reminds me of my old LBS back in Illinois, many years ago. Loved the owner, a great guy you could trust. he was always looking out for customers, especially newbies and making sure they didn't buy things that were not needed in his view, or at least advising them of their options.

he always advised me against a new full suspension bike because it wasn't needed in central Illinois. When I moved to California I bought an Enduro within 2 months. Wow! But I thought 'Man, i could have been riding this for the past 3 years had he not talked me out of one." But he did have my best interests at heart, which I always respected.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

cjsb said:


> ...
> 
> he always advised me against a new full suspension bike because it wasn't needed in central Illinois. When I moved to California I bought an Enduro within 2 months. Wow! But I thought 'Man, i could have been riding this for the past 3 years had he not talked me out of one." But he did have my best interests at heart, which I always respected.


Not sure I get the point. LBS had your best interest at heart for central IL, or was misinformed for not weighing in your potential move to CA?


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

phlegm said:


> Not sure I get the point.  LBS had your best interest at heart for central IL, or was misinformed for not weighing in your potential move to CA?


The LBS had no idea about my move to CA. The point was that I loved the full suspension bike that i bought in CA, and that my LBS in Illinois had steered me away from for 3 years. In my case, the LBS was looking out for my interests, but didn't give enough weight to how much fun I would have on the full suspension. That's okay, they can't necessarily gauge my fun factor accurately. For the LBS, they probably saw too many riders under-utilize whatever they bought and didn't want to hard sell them something they might rarely use. In retrospect I would have loved it and they sold me the much more expensive full suspension bike that I didn't "need."

The OP will be happy with his more expensive Shimano brakes.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I have worked at several bicycle shops over the last few years. most of them do good work, shoot straight, and don't try to sell you crap you don't need. however, one or two of them were slow and lazy. I have visited some that were downright shady. the strange thing to me is how long the shady ones stay in business.

I have ranted and raved about this for years, so I will try to keep it brief. it seems to me that the number one credential that a bike shop mechanic needs to get paid to work on bikes is confidence. the fact that some mechanics actually have no idea what they are doing seems to have little affect on their ability to be employed in the industry. most mechanics that are allowed to work autonomously have earned that position, but not necessarily. the ones that get that far often realize after a few years that they are begin paid peanuts and are not going to get paid much more, so they move onto another industry, leaving a void for less-than-qualified hacks to give the profession a bad reputation.

if short- make your LBS earn your trust. this should not be necessary, but it's the reality of the situation. once they have it, reward them with your business.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

cjsb said:


> The LBS had no idea about my move to CA. The point was that I loved the full suspension bike that i bought in CA, and that my LBS in Illinois had steered me away from for 3 years. In my case, the LBS was looking out for my interests, but didn't give enough weight to how much fun I would have on the full suspension. That's okay, they can't necessarily gauge my fun factor accurately. For the LBS, they probably saw too many riders under-utilize whatever they bought and didn't want to hard sell them something they might rarely use. In retrospect I would have loved it and they sold me the much more expensive full suspension bike that I didn't "need."
> 
> The OP will be happy with his more expensive Shimano brakes.


I just got the impression that you were slamming your old LBS for not over-biking you at the time. Looking back, one would hope you'd be pleased with that, not regretful.

That said, there's a theme in this thread around the OP owning the decision to get new brakes, and ultimately he could have said "no". Similarly, wouldn't the onus be on you to choose a FS bike at the time?

Whether or not the OP will be happy with the new brakes is irrelevant.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

What it really boils down to is realizing that YOU know best what you want/need.
I know shop guys are trying to be helpful with recommendations, and that it's part of their job, and I'm sure a lot of people find it helpful, but I've received tons of recommendations from shop folks that range from not-right-for-me to blatant marketing drivel to plain clueless ********.

Examples from way back when I even bothered to ask:

'What do you want riser bars for? Those are only for DH."

"2.3" tires are way too big; you'll be better with 1.85" semislicks. Run them around 45psi otherwise the rolling resistance is terrible"

"Suspension is a fad"

"Drill out your crankarms to save weight"

"You want your back to basically be as flat as possible; a 150mm stem and some 17" flat bars will put you in the optimal riding position"

"100mm of travel is way too much for trail riding. It'll ruin the handling of your bike going to anything less than a 71 degree HT"

Same **** is still going on these days, only the names have changed.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> What it really boils down to is realizing that YOU know best what you want/need.
> I know shop guys are trying to be helpful with recommendations, and that it's part of their job, and I'm sure a lot of people find it helpful, but I've received tons of recommendations from shop folks that range from not-right-for-me to blatant marketing drivel to plain clueless ********.
> 
> Examples from way back when I even bothered to ask:
> ...


Yikes!!!!

I think I would start scratching furiously until they asked what the problem was, and then tell them, "Sorry, I'm allergic to bullsh*t."


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

jeffj said:


> Yikes!!!!
> 
> I think I would start scratching furiously until they asked what the problem was, and then tell them, "Sorry, I'm allergic to bullsh*t."


If this was 1994, 95% of riders would be parroting the exact same advice. 
There's no shortage of the same kind of silly examples these days.

I'm sure semi-slicks run at 60 psi were "proven" to be faster/better at one point, just like wide rims/dropper posts/29" wheels/etc/etc have been "proven" best more recently, as any salesman will be sure to tell you.

Same ol' song and dance...


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## tualmbr (Jul 18, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> What it really boils down to is realizing that YOU know best what you want/need.
> I know shop guys are trying to be helpful with recommendations, and that it's part of their job, and I'm sure a lot of people find it helpful, but I've received tons of recommendations from shop folks that range from not-right-for-me to blatant marketing drivel to plain clueless ********.
> 
> Examples from way back when I even bothered to ask:
> ...


Don't forget the Dropper Post - you know, you can't be considered a real biker until you have a dropper post. Or the $3000 extra you paid for the super light carbon frame so you could ride longer and go faster - but then you add 2 pounds to the bike when you put the dropper and cable and hardware on the bike.



mack_turtle said:


> I have worked at several bicycle shops over the last few years. most of them do good work, shoot straight, and don't try to sell you crap you don't need. however, one or two of them were slow and lazy. I have visited some that were downright shady. the strange thing to me is how long the shady ones stay in business.
> 
> I have ranted and raved about this for years, so I will try to keep it brief. it seems to me that the number one credential that a bike shop mechanic needs to get paid to work on bikes is confidence. the fact that some mechanics actually have no idea what they are doing seems to have little affect on their ability to be employed in the industry. most mechanics that are allowed to work autonomously have earned that position, but not necessarily. the ones that get that far often realize after a few years that they are begin paid peanuts and are not going to get paid much more, so they move onto another industry, leaving a void for less-than-qualified hacks to give the profession a bad reputation.
> 
> if short- make your LBS earn your trust. this should not be necessary, but it's the reality of the situation. once they have it, reward them with your business.


mack - You touch on pay for techs - truly most of them are underpaid and I think the really great ones work seasonally or only part time because it's so hard to make a good living on just fixing bikes. This in large part leads to the problem of constant up-selling or overselling - have to make a paycheck, right? Customer can always say no, right? Plus like 98% of the posts in this thread - the "dealership" always rips off the customer - never pay retail - order the parts online and watch a youtube - you can do it yourself - right? While yes, most people can and should learn how to work on their own bikes - it does compound the income problem for local bike shops.

Even though here in Oregon we have a very active bicycle community, there are only 2 times a year that I can demo most bikes without having to drive 3 hours away..


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## VeniVidiVici (Oct 10, 2015)

Bike shops are all about making money. One time I went in to one with my friend and her bike. She needed to get a Presta valve adapter to air up her tires. The bike was practically new just hadn't ridden for couple years and lost its air. They tried to sell her new inner tubes cause they said they might have gone bad. If I wasn't there she might have bought new tubes. I said just air em up I doubt the tubes are bad. This same shop I came in after snapping a pedal shaft out riding. I purchased some $40.00 pedals he asked if I wanted him to install them I said sure. So just before he's about to put my bike on the stand he says it will be $10.00 to install them. I thought 10 bucks! for 40 dollars should would only take few minutes to put on. I said that's ok I can put them on myself. I like working on my own bike I worked in one some 40 years ago as a teen. Its not hard there are lots of youtube videos if you never done it before.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Yes...that is the point of any business. On the tubes example...again...anyone can say no but if you came into my shop and told me that you had a bike that hadn't been ridden in several years with two flat tires..recommending new tubes isn't crazy-town...they could be dry-rotted etc. The pedal install example is crappy...most places would just install them. I think this particular example of buying parts at the LBS and then paying to install is a sticking point now with online...if I owned a shop I would do the install on parts purchased at the shop for a discounted rate (maybe even free) vs. full-price labor to install things bought online to help offset the fact that the shop can't match online prices.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> If this was 1994, 95% of riders would be parroting the exact same advice.
> There's no shortage of the same kind of silly examples these days.
> 
> I'm sure semi-slicks run at 60 psi were "proven" to be faster/better at one point, just like wide rims/dropper posts/29" wheels/etc/etc have been "proven" best more recently, as any salesman will be sure to tell you.
> ...


Exactly.


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## VeniVidiVici (Oct 10, 2015)

If the tubes had been left outside open to the elements then I could see dry rot. But inside a tire the bike stored indoors its not much difference if the tube was brand new still in the box sitting on a shelve for 2 years as NOS. Do you through away all NOS tubes in the garbage cause it sat in the box with no air for 2 years. Yes bike shops are in business they have to make money we know that. If you want to save money learn how to work on your own bike.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

FWIW I recently aquired a 1980's Shwinn World Sport. Bike wasn't ridden since the 90's so I'll assume thats when the tubes were replaced last. Those tubes are still in use now with me riding it . The tires were crumbling to pieces around the tubes.

What does this have to do with the OP's post anyway?


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## tualmbr (Jul 18, 2015)

It is illegal to sell/install automotive tires if they are 5 years past their production date..

If it was an old bike ~5-10 years, plus sat for 2~ years - very good reasons to install new tubes.. Poor example if you ask me..

It comes down to a fundamental difference of thought - the bike shop thinks "we are the professional, we are the one liable for giving advise/suggestions, we want this customer to be safe, to enjoy their riding, to be able to rely on their bike" etc...

Again, if your friend just aired up the tires and 20 minutes into the ride the front tube blows apart and she face-plants the pavement when trying to stop - or gets so flustered that her front wheel is death wobbling down a trail that she collides into a tree - there is a very high likelihood ( in this sue happy world ) that she files a $10,000 lawsuit against the bike shop for all her medical bills and demands a free bike since she was assured by the bike shop that "just airing the tires up will be fine"


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> What it really boils down to is realizing that YOU know best what you want/need.
> I know shop guys are trying to be helpful with recommendations, and that it's part of their job, and I'm sure a lot of people find it helpful, but I've received tons of recommendations from shop folks that range from not-right-for-me to blatant marketing drivel to plain clueless ********.
> 
> Examples from way back when I even bothered to ask:
> ...


As a salesperson, I try REALLY hard to avoid making statements like that. And I give my coworkers a hard time if I catch them doing it. Why? Because trends vary. People ride for different reasons. Don't buy something or do something just because it's popular. Learn what it actually does for you, and decide if that fits within your reason for riding.

I think it helps that the people I work with at the shop have hugely varied preferences with bikes. One guy loves steel road bikes and Campy components. He has modern ones as well as classic ones. He's also a big cross guy. The owner's favorite riding is gravel, but he rides road and mtb, also. One guy really likes long road events like centuries and fondos. I ride mtb's primarily, but I also commute. We've got track racers on staff. One employee won women's junior worlds in two road disciplines this year, and is on the USA Cycling Olympic track team for Rio.

We lean on each other's expertise quite a bit.

But yeah, I've encountered statements like this over the years at different shops so I know that some shop owners/managers don't really make an effort to emphasize to their employees what good customer service really is. They emphasize the selling first. But if you do customer service right, the sales will follow.


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## VeniVidiVici (Oct 10, 2015)

What it comes down to is you really need to know something. Bike shops are like Automotive shops a lady brings in her car not running good they tell her she need a new motor when really she just need a tune up. The bike was her's to begin with. She didn't buy the bike off the floor or had the bike there for repairs. They could refused to air the tires in there shop. They were really selling hard new tubes to her. I said if the tires go flat after few hours or next day then maybe will get new tubes. I have a bmx bike that's 38 years old. Been sitting mostly indoors but been outdoors for the past 6 years. The tires are all cracked i have skin wall tires in the back ripping apart. The tubes were flat until about 3 months ago I air them up and they are still holding air today. I just recently ordered some new tires for it. But I understand your point of the bike shop I worked in one before. They need to make money to stay in business. I don't fault them for trying to sell her new tubes. But she didn't need them is what I am saying.


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## Boomchakabowwow (Sep 8, 2015)

dont let anyone step on the brake pedal while changing pads on a car either.

for me it's a comfort thing. i'm getting lazier, but still at the point where i take a swing at it myself. i can take a motor out of a vintage porsche 911,,i should be able to handle my bike. i'm am not too proud to take a bag of parts to the shop after i "fail". 

just try. i gonna try to chase down a creaky bottom bracket soon. buddy lent me the tools, but had little time to help..how bad can i eff this up?

go slow OP..and youtube things. you can make kimchee if you look it up on youtube and do makeup. (if that is your thing)..bike stuff..is all over youtube.


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## jestep (Jul 23, 2004)

I've been getting more and more reluctant to allow any shop to do work on my bikes these days, even ones I've trusted in the past. An example just last week, one shop near my house that I often buy random stuff from and have had them do maintenance that I don't have tools for a few times. I was in there looking for a star nut for an older fork that has a 1" steerer. The 3 people in the shop, 2 of which were the "mechanics", didn't even know what a star nut was. I literally had to explain what a star nut was and they didn't think they kept any in stock. I can't even make this stuff up.

I've had similar situation at a number of shops in my area, not to mention some of the prices for service are absolutely asinine. The headset installation cost is my go to annoyance. $30 to press a headset, $10 to install the starnut, $10 to install the crown race. Add another $10 - $30 if you actually want them to put the fork on the bike and attach a stem to it.

I hate to put demographics on it but the worst in my observation are in wealthier areas where I can only guess, people just drop their bikes off and pay whatever the shop ends up billing them when they pick the bike back up. This sort of apathy just keeps bad shops in business.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

VeniVidiVici said:


> Bike shops are all about making money.


the nerve! who do those businesspeople think they are? starting a business and trying to MAKE MONEY? they should all be dragged into the street and shot!

most people will pay me $5 to install pedals. $10 is a bit of a stretch, but the store owner has to make some sort of money off the laborers they are employing.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

jestep said:


> ...The 3 people in the shop, 2 of which were the "mechanics", didn't even know what a star nut was. I literally had to explain what a star nut was and they didn't think they kept any in stock. I can't even make this stuff up.


sounds about right, I have been in shops like that, but they are the exception, not the rule IMO. are you surprised that the LBS can't keep good mechanics around when they can only pay them peanuts in order to compete with big box stores and mail order shops? not that it's the fault of bigger companies who are taking the market by the horns, but that is reality. I was in the industry for six years, never made more than $25K in all that time. while I was not the best mechanic in the world and sometimes made mistakes, I can say with some humility that I would never give anyone the BS that I read about in threads like this. all the more reason to find a GOOD mechanic you can trust and make sure he/she says in the business, or learn to do it yourself.



jestep said:


> I've had similar situation at a number of shops in my area, not to mention some of the prices for service are absolutely asinine.


I agree to a point. sometimes I have done a job and thought "why am I charging X to do Y?" then again, sometimes I charge someone $10 to change an inner tube and because the wheel has an IGH or chain cover or the rim/tire is super tight, it takes me more than 30 minutes to do the job. some of the tools that are needed to do those jobs are pretty expensive. you have to install dozens of headsets at those prices before all those tools (star nut setter, headtube reamers/facers, crown race setter, headset cup remover, cup press, etc) start to pay for themselves. I think buying a Park BB thread chaser is about $400 direct from a distributor, and that does not include all the tools you need to do more than one kind of BB.



jestep said:


> I hate to put demographics on it but the worst in my observation are in wealthier areas where I can only guess, people just drop their bikes off and pay whatever the shop ends up billing them when they pick the bike back up. This sort of apathy just keeps bad shops in business.


agreed 100%. the problem is, non-affluent people will not pay a good shop to do the job right using the right tools, and decided to do it themselves with a crecent wrench and some wd-40 (and ruin their bike), while affluent people can't be bothered with getting their hands dirty or understanding the deep mystery of how to lube their own chain. it's a weird cycle indeed.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> "2.3" tires are way too big; you'll be better with 1.85" semislicks. Run them around 45psi otherwise the rolling resistance is terrible"


I remember riding semi-slicks and thinking I was cool - totally not my fault for buying them.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The beauty of our country is...if you think the service sucks at a particular LBS, don't shop there anymore. I think shops should keep their labor simple i.e. headset install = $40 (as an example) which includes....well...installing your headset, the foks and brake bits, etc. I also think shops should advertise the price ($40 in this case) but advertise that parts bought at the shop recieve a 25% discount so $30...basically marking up the labor rates for online/off-the-street parts vs. buying them there.


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## VeniVidiVici (Oct 10, 2015)

mack_turtle said:


> the nerve! who do those businesspeople think they are? starting a business and trying to MAKE MONEY? they should all be dragged into the street and shot!
> 
> .


I know the nerve of these snake oil salesman.. I would have more respect if they said you probably don't need new tubes but lets air them up and check them. Instead of right off the bat ah you need new tubes cause they probably went bad sitting so long. I highly recommend you get both new tubes. When he aired them up he says I think there ok I don't hear any air and its holding pressure I think they'll be fine. That is what he said when we put air in. She could of sunk $40.00 in parts and labor when all she needed was air. Lucky I was there.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Easy, don't shop there again. You are often dealing with folks making $10/hour or less that are working to feed a gear addiction and with zero to little retail sales training. You will get some that are passionate about the industry and knowing all of the tech ins/outs. You will get some that want to do the right thing and aren't hard sellers. You will get some that are @ssholes. The key is to find a shop that you gel with the staff/owner and feel comfortable spending your money at...I have a few here that I like to shop at and have been happy with my service, prices, and overall atomosphere. There are others that I have been in that are not so great so I don't go back. I am fotunate to have spent ~4 years working in two different shops while I was in college/grad school both of which were good places...probably b/c I worked there


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## VeniVidiVici (Oct 10, 2015)

I still will go and get small things I need shims bolts cables whatever. I never need them to work on my bike. 
The thing about that incident was the sales person happen to know my friend from his church so she trusted him. Then a mechanic comes over and he agrees she should get new tubes. And there both selling her hard explaining why she needs them. The whole time I thinking to myself your talking to her right cause I'm not falling for this BS.. I said you don't need new tubes she looks at me like sure yeah just get them aired up. hahaha


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

VeniVidiVici said:


> I know the nerve of these snake oil salesman.


so are you saying that every person who works at every bike shop in the world is a liar, makes piles of money lying to people, and none of them make honest money?

in the case of the shop you mentioned, yes, that's crap and you should avoid that shop and tell others the same until they shape up or go out of business. there is nothing wrong with making money, as you seemed to suggest. the dishonesty is wrong and will hurt their business in the long run. not everyone in the bike business is a "snake oil salesman." there is a fine line between up-selling and lying, and the shop you mentioned seems to have lied. that does not mean that everyone in the business lies to make money. I take that a bit personally since I have been a bike shop mechanic for six years and never lied to anyone about needing to buy a bike part.

(because people in the business of repairing stuff have a bad reputation, people are often weary of my diagnoses. when I find a bike with a cracked frame or a chain so rusted that it does not move, some people insist that I "fix it anyway" because they don't want to pay for the job to be done right. at that point, if they don't agree to a job that I feel confident about, I hand their bike back to them and show them the door. sadly, some other bike shop will fix an unfixable bike and take this gullible person's money.)

the funny thing about saying bike shops are "all about making money" is that they are NOT making money. it's a lousy market with lousy margins, low pay, no benefits for most, and a skeptical, derisive public perception. if the salespeople are pushing the up-sell hard, it's because they have a manager breathing down their necks in order to keep the lights on. if they have resorted to lying, it is because their own behavior, or that of other bike shops, have prevented them from making money in the conventional, honest way.


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## TSpice (May 15, 2015)

As I have mentioned in other posts, there are 3 primary LBS in this area. I only trust one of them. The other two are fine, but they are large scale franchised places that are basically there for mass sales, and really have no connection to their customers. 

The one I do go to however, I know every salesman and tech by name. I know the owners. It is a family owned place on its 3rd generation now. 

So most of the time when I go there, it is because I am trying to actively give them business. Most of the products I buy there, I could get online for 1-5% cheaper and have it delivered to my doorstep. About 80% of the service I have them do, I could do myself almost free of charge not considering the up front capital cost of buying lubricants, tools, etc. For every 5 things I need to buy/do, I will do at least one of them at the LBS.

Why am I dumping money into this LBS? I believe in the phrase, "Take care of your LBS, they will take care of you." Now that everyone, including the owners, know me? I get free stuff on occasion, my 2016 race bike they knocked $700 off as customer loyalty even when they had to order it in, and sometimes they do free tune ups. 

Also since they all know me, whenever they get new stock in fresh from the manufacturers, they let me test stuff out, see the latest & greatest, etc.


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## tualmbr (Jul 18, 2015)

So many complaints about labor charges in here.... What is keeping you guys from buying the $960 park professional bicycle tool kit.. The $100 bicycle repair stand.. The related tools and equipment you might need depending on what catastrophe happens with your bike $500, the hydraulic fluid, the brake cleaner chemicals, the greases, the thread glue, etc.. Rent a small garage somewhere to store all of this stuff $200/month..

Then all your repair and upgrade labor will be FREE


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

^yes. I don't have time for it, but some day I will add up what it would cost to equip a shop [edit- commercial bicycle shop, not a home garage] with all the basic tools needed to work on most bikes- basic hand tools, torque wrenches, headset and bottom bracket tools, spoke and hub specific tools, frame alignment tools, bike stands, air compressor, storage, dozens of different kinds of fluids, rags, small parts (cables, bearings, bolts, etc). I would not be surprised if it costs $10K to set that up. do the math- how many $10 tube changes, minus the time you pay a mechanic to do each one, does it take before you pay off your compressor? that does not excuse lying to customers about the condition of their equipment, but it does make for slow profit-making.

the answer to this is _simple_: if your LBS charges "too much" or is dishonest with you, find a better one. no one is forcing you to patronize your LBS. if you don't want to pay anyone to do it, but the right tools and do it yourself. if you don't have the skills, pay someone who does.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

You don't need to spend all that much at all to take care of 99+% of repairs right at home. You're overblowing things quite a bit.

You don't need a compressor, you don't need a frame alignment tool, you don't need any specialized tools for parts you don't actually own. Dozens of fluids? Are you joking? What do you need beyond a jar of grease and some chainlube, really? Maybe some brake fluid if you've got hydros. Don't need any special cleaners, who the **** pays for rags, you can make a headset press for next to nothing...etc etc etc.

Point being, you don't need to equip you basement like a high end bike shop in order to do your own work on your own (and your buddies') bikes. A stand, typical hand tools from your local hardware store, and a few specialty tools are all you need. And somewhere to keep the beer cold.


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## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

DethWshBkr said:


> Red - HIGH strength. There is no need to use this ANYWHERE on a bicycle, and it COULD cause you to strip out parts. This thread locker requires the parts to be heated (over 500* if i recall) to be removed, and sometimes, basic hand tools cannot remove it. Again - not for use on a bicycle at all!


I will make one note about this. I stripped out a pedal hole on a shimano XT crank. It was my own fault but rather than buy a new crankset, I opted to tap and sleeve it with a steel threaded adapters. When I finally got a good fit for the sleeve, I did use red locktite as I never want the sleeve to loosen. Ever.

We have a handful of bike shops here in N.E. Tennessee. All of them are pretty upstanding. It is nice to go to "your" favorite shop and hang out. And after closing time, pop open a cold one or two.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> You don't need to spend all that much at all to take care of 99+% of repairs right at home. You're overblowing things quite a bit.


sorry, I was unclear. I was responding to people who seem to think commercial bike shops are making money hand-over-fist and ignore the overhead costs of running a bike shop. my point is that you DO need all that stuff to open and run a _bicycle shop_, a business, which is part of the reason why bike shops have to charge as much as they do for labor. a shop needs to be able to work on everything from a 1960s Schwinn beach cruiser to a brand new crabon enduro wunderbike with all the trimmings. if you factor in all those tools, the space, several work stands, fluids for multiple kinds of suspension and hydro brakes, etc, $10K seems about right. yes, a bike shop pays for *** rags and usually pays for someone to haul the dirty *** rags away.

that does not mean you need all that stuff for home DIY repairs. in fact, buying all that for your personal needs would be downright silly. I encourage buying the tools you need and learn to make basic repairs on _your_ bike. it's not difficult. if you don't have the time or the will to do that, pay someone else to do it. based on my experience, most people (which includes those who are not avid "cyclists") are afraid to close their own Qr lever, let alone overhaul a fork or bleed a brake.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ah....sorry...all true and an important distinction.
I think I conflated your post and the one before it a bit.


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## TSpice (May 15, 2015)

Most of the tools I use on my bikes I already have for other DIY projects around the house, or tools I have gotten as presents over the years from Dad's/Grandfathers. 

Set of hex keys there, set of wrenches there, etc.

Only things I have truly purchased as "bike specific" whether it is for my road bike or mountain bike would be:
1. Repair stand w/ tray. Amazon $70 (Prices vary)
2. Degreaser (I don't work on my cars, so had to buy this for bikes)
3. Chain lube
4. Multi-tool with a chain breaker.

I haven't had to replace a cassette yet so I don't have a chain whip. Waiting for that need before I buy one. (Although I have seen people use a section of old chain, a clamp, and some creativity to avoid buying one, lol)

Now if you are a fresh home owner or whatever else and don't have typical screwdrivers, wrenches, pliers, utility knives, hex keys, etc? Well, you might be in for some cost...


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Dang...almost 100 posts on this subject.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The things a home mechanic/shop needs are a work stand, a standard set of everyday tools including metric allen wrenches and torx wrenches. Specialty tools like a chain breaker, housing/cable cutters, quick-link tool, spoke wrench(s), pedal wrench, cassette tool, chain whip, bb service tools, chainring tool, torque wrench, and cone wrenches are what comes to mind that are handy (I am sure I am issuing something without looking at my workbench/toolbox). I have a PF BB and am not buying the tools...I will pay the shop..same with headset tools. Bleeding kits are inexpensive. For lubes etc., chain lube, some degreaser, rubbing alcohol, and grease are about all you need. Yes, I can make a press with all-thread but to remove them requires a tool as well...again...LBS. An air compressor is really worth it IMHO for blowing on/off grips and inflating tubeless set ups. I was a mechanic for ~4 years and bought a lot of what I have during that time in the mid-'90s....have had to buy a few things since as chains have gotten narrower. Even for a limited tool set, its still going to be a several hundred dollars. I can tell you, my gear has paid for itself many times and I have only had my bike serviced (where I paid) at a LBS once in nearly 20 years (recently had XT brakes installed b/c I didn't feel like messing with shortening the hoses). Working on your bike is fairly straightforward and with all of the info/videos online, easier than ever. I love working on my bikes and keeping them in top condition. The only thing I wish I had is a truing stand but I can do a pretty good job with the wheel on the bike and a zip-tie cut down and attached to the stay or fork to give me a guide.


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## tualmbr (Jul 18, 2015)

Lady came in the other day - says "can you check my car over, I want it to be reliable and safe" .. Notice it's past due for the oil change, she wants a light fixed and new wiper blades.. Call her few hours later after checking everything.. It has 122,000 miles on it and needed about $800 in repairs. She says "oh okay whatever you think it needs, I want it to be safe".. Call her hours later when it's all fixed.. She is joyed that it was done same day.. She shows up to pick it up, grabs the invoice, her eye locks on " Labor $402 ".. She complains that labor is so high.. The guy explains " Well, we quoted you $800 earlier, and we managed to save around $60 so the total is only $740. We did a few free services like wash the car, vacuum the car, clean the inside of the windshield. " You could tell she is ignoring all of this because she is mumbling about how high the labor is and how she is being robbed and how the labor is higher than it should be. The guy continues with "We worked on your brakes, your engine, your transmission, your power steering - and everything is itemized - when you have to set up different equipment for each system it does take some time to do everything.. And we stay competitive, this is about 30% cheaper than it would be at the dealership" And she is still dead set on the labor - she mumbles "im going to have to talk to my friend about this, he said you do good work and wouldn't take advantage of me.. but this labor is ridiculous.."

Some people are pre-programmed that nothing should be more than $5 because you can buy it online from china for $5, and labor should never be more than $20 because youtube will show you how to do it in 3 minutes, and you don't really need to pay for the $300 in gaskets and labor because if you just follow these 5 easy steps that look like magic on youtube, you can skip all the hard parts.. ( As long as you can hang upside down and have 7 arms, and know how to build this custom tool which requires a mechanical engineering degree to make that we claim anyone with some scrap metal and electrical tape can make on their own, which we don't show you on youtube )



mack_turtle said:


> sorry, I was unclear. I was responding to people who seem to think commercial bike shops are making money hand-over-fist and ignore the overhead costs of running a bike shop. my point is that you DO need all that stuff to open and run a _bicycle shop_, a business, which is part of the reason why bike shops have to charge as much as they do for labor. a shop needs to be able to work on everything from a 1960s Schwinn beach cruiser to a brand new crabon enduro wunderbike with all the trimmings. if you factor in all those tools, the space, several work stands, fluids for multiple kinds of suspension and hydro brakes, etc, $10K seems about right. yes, a bike shop pays for *** rags and usually pays for someone to haul the dirty *** rags away.
> 
> that does not mean you need all that stuff for home DIY repairs. in fact, buying all that for your personal needs would be downright silly. I encourage buying the tools you need and learn to make basic repairs on _your_ bike. it's not difficult. if you don't have the time or the will to do that, pay someone else to do it. based on my experience, most people (which includes those who are not avid "cyclists") are afraid to close their own Qr lever, let alone overhaul a fork or bleed a brake.


This reminds me of a mazda mechanic friend. He would tell me about the "old days" when you only needed 3 sizes of wrench and sockets to work on a Mazda

When times got tough, when DIY got bigger, when he started turning away work on other brands because he was a diehard mazda mechanic, when he started turning away mazda's that someone/somewhere hacked together and he couldn't fix them because he only had the bare minimum mazda tools ( not all the dozens of tools needed when stuff gets FUBAR.. ) ..

Through it all - he stuck to his roots .. He never got rich .. And he never "lost his ass" trying to fix other people's nightmares ..


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## jscott36 (Nov 21, 2010)

My next project is to adjust my front derailleur. I attempted it myself but quickly realized I needed help so looked it up on Youtube. People who commented on this thread and suggested Youtube as a way to learn to do bike work were right.

I found this great video. It has almost 1.3 million views. Just have to take my laptop with me to the basement and I should be all set.

Front Derailleur Adjustment


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

TiGeo said:


> I love working on my bikes and keeping them in top condition. The only thing I wish I had is a truing stand but I can do a pretty good job with the wheel on the bike and a zip-tie cut down to give me a guide.


Necessity is the mother of invention. Getting creative and improvising a solution on a budget while maintaining the quality you want is all part of the passion.

While we need a decent set of tools and the confidence to use them effectively, one area that rarely seems to get little attention is the importance of good lighting in the work area. Yes, we can get the job done under less than ideal lighting conditions (and we frequently do), but having some quality lighting surrounding your work area can be every bit as satisfying as possessing and using a new, high quality tool.

Given the relative low cost of acquiring quality lighting, I consider this a good return for the investment. It enhances the details of the task, reduces fatigue, and makes the job at hand a much better experience.

Oh...the only additional tool consideration if you have a solid location to mount it, would be a bench vice. This too can make easy work of a sometimes awkward task.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Cleared2land said:


> Given the relative low cost of acquiring quality lighting, I consider this a good return for the investment. ...Oh...the only additional tool consideration if you have a solid location to mount it, would be a bench vice. This too can make easy work of a sometimes awkward task.


the last shop where I worked had horrible lighting. I had to bring a small headlamp and a pocket flashlight to get stuff done. I asked the owner about replacing burned out bulbs and getting more light and he laughed like I was asking for my own personal jet. the bench vice was also not bolted to anything, which made it pretty useless. the owner showed no sign of interest in fixing this and three dozen other problems, so I left.


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## sleepyguy1001 (May 26, 2014)

Geez, the shop I've been dealing with has been great, but I started going there on the recommendation of a couple of friends that have been riding forever. They've let me watch and explained what they were doing while adjusting a rear derailleur, for example, that I just couldn't get right, so I could do it myself going forward. I was thinking of putting a new fork on my first mtb and asked them if they would put it on if I didn't buy it from them. Sure no problem they said. All this to say I don't feel at their mercy at all.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^ It's really nice when you can find an LBS, or any other retail/service oriented business that you really enjoy doing business with.


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## Vexxer (Nov 11, 2015)

Mobile bike repair shops are on the rise. They do not generally sell parts, so they are not gonna try to get one on over on you when it comes times to repairs. If something needs to be replaced, they have to order it or you can go buy it yourself, they make little, or no money off replacement parks.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Interesting topic- mobile repair services. Sounds like a nightmare to employ yourself this way, and any jackass with a few tools can drive around and call himself a "mechanic."


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## Vexxer (Nov 11, 2015)

mack_turtle said:


> Interesting topic- mobile repair services. Sounds like a nightmare to employ yourself this way, and any jackass with a few tools can drive around and call himself a "mechanic."


That is probably true, the ones around here that I have used are very reputable though. Former shop owners, and lead mechanics in shops. They are the ones you find at charity rides and amateur races. I am sure though there are others I have not heard of or used that do not know what they are doing. In fact, I have heard of one company out there franchising mobile bikes shops... Im willing to bet they are all that selective.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

sounds like the services one would offer as a mobile mechanic would be very limited. if you don't have replacement chainrings, cassettes, chains, cables, brake pads, bottom brackets, etc, you can't do a lot of repairs. you might do your customer a disservice if you "tune up" a bike but don't replace something like that when it needs replacing. I hope I never get that desperate for work that I have to participate in that "gig economy" crap.


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## Vexxer (Nov 11, 2015)

Mobile Mechanic isn't the best term. Its more a pickup and drop off service. They take bikes back to their shops to work on, and they order new parts just like any LBS would. Rarely did I ever go to a LBS for something to be fixed and they actually had the needed part in stock. The mobile part of it is when they do work at rides and races. Any LBS could offer the same service if they just bought a work van. A couple shops around here have.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

*Are we at the mercy of the local bake shop?*

All I really wanted was a donut, but the baker suggested that a chocolate mousse pie with fresh strawberries & whipped cream topping would be much tastier. It was delicious but now I feel fat.

Sorry, I'll move along now......


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I only wanted a condom, but wound up with a vasectomy.

..and I feel fat for some unrelated reason.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Instead of riding, I ate cookies. For breakfast. Im rethinking my whole life now.

I was a mobile mechanic for a charity ride a few weeks ago. I volunteered to do it. I cant imagine doing that for a living.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Vexxer said:


> Mobile Mechanic isn't the best term. Its more a pickup and drop off service. They take bikes back to their shops to work on, and they order new parts just like any LBS would. Rarely did I ever go to a LBS for something to be fixed and they actually had the needed part in stock.


Good point.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

If you work out of your garage, no parts distributor will sell directly. I set up a qbp account for a bike co-op once. We had to jump through a ton of hoops so they would allow us to order chains, brake cables, and tubes. If you don't have a brick and mortar bicycle dealer, you probably cant set up an account. Instead you could buy parts from a lbs at regular retail price, but i dont see how you would make any money doing that after you buy tools and drive all over town buying parts. Sounds like a waste of time.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^agree...I thought about doing this very thing out of my garage but parts are an issue and QBP isn't going to do business with me...but...you could just get stuff online..it's so cheap and you could mark it up a little and still make a profit.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Maybe if I was a few decades older and retired, I would do this as a hobby and a way to make just a little extra cash. not a good way to pay the bills though unless you are cutting a lot or corners and cheating on your taxes.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

I think the lbs' are at the mercy of the distributors. Priced a Reverb service today, $200!? ($130 usd) :WTF: I can purchase a new reverb from CRC for $407!! ($266 usd)

-----------------------------------------------------------
-=snifff!!=- What's that you say?


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

We can buy parts online for less than shops can buy from qbp. I have no idea why shops buy anything from qbp. They ship amazingly slow too. Running a bike shop is a pretty rough gig, theres not much reason for your store to be there.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

mack_turtle said:


> Maybe if I was a few decades older and retired, I would do this as a hobby and a way to make just a little extra cash. not a good way to pay the bills though unless you are cutting a lot or corners and cheating on your taxes.


Agreed..just as a side business/fun.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mack_turtle said:


> Maybe if I was a few decades older and retired, I would do this as a hobby and a way to make just a little extra cash. not a good way to pay the bills though


That's pretty much how I've always looked at working at a bike shop, or doing practically anything in the bike industry for that matter.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> That's pretty much how I've always looked at working at a bike shop, or doing practically anything in the bike industry for that matter.


aaaaaand that is why it's so hard to find a good bike shop. the few who take their career in a bike shop seriously are difficult to find and most of them eventually burn out and find work elsewhere, leaving a hole that is quickly filled with inexperienced gear junkies who drag the profession down.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Yep, who is going to make a career out of earning ~$25K/year? Good as a second job if your sig. other has a career that can pay the bills. When I was a full-time mech in the mid-to-late '90s, I earned $8/hour and had health coverage. That was pretty good for a job while in grad school. But as a career? No thanks. Its just supply/demand forces at work..the jobs at a LBS simply don't derive a high-income b/c the market doesn't bare it.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

which is why I see hypocrisy and/or ignorance in the people who complain about the service at their LBS. find a good LBS (which is rare) or learn how to do it yourself and stop whining.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I put myself through college working on bikes. My real hourly rate running my own bicycle business was somewhere around $100 an hour. On a great day I could pull around a grand. That was only doing wheels though, and people were lining up to pay that rate. Id be living in my car trying to adjust derailleurs for 20 bucks.

When holidays come up, or I just want a few hundred bucks quick cash (usually for more bike junk  ), I can toss together some wheels real quick. Theres a crapload of money to be made in the bike industry, but its not in basic bike repairs!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

mack_turtle said:


> stop whining.


Always good advice. Applies to bike mechanics too.
Get a job doing something besides fixing simple toys if you want to make real money.
Otherwise, see above...


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## Daniel de la Garza (Sep 5, 2015)

When u first started I thought these new bikes were so much work to maintenance but as time went by and saw videos on how to fix simple problems or problems it may seem difficult but actually aren't, I can only advice you this: learn everything you can about your bike as much as you do on whatever you do as work and you might end up enjoying more your mtb and caring less for maintenance and more about the rides. 

BTW I don't know if you broke the brakes but it's stupid to think that new people won't make mistakes and brake something, it's just part of the process and it's OK.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

mack_turtle said:


> If you work out of your garage, no parts distributor will sell directly. I set up a qbp account for a bike co-op once. We had to jump through a ton of hoops so they would allow us to order chains, brake cables, and tubes. If you don't have a brick and mortar bicycle dealer, you probably cant set up an account. Instead you could buy parts from a lbs at regular retail price, but i dont see how you would make any money doing that after you buy tools and drive all over town buying parts. Sounds like a waste of time.


That's the case with pretty much any larger bike parts distributor. BTI, KHS, Hawley...etc. Some require bank statements, pictures of the building you're in, invoices from other distributors. The margins aren't that big. I remember the margin on Garmins were real small. If the shop offered a discount...there would be practically no profit.


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## stingray (Mar 12, 2014)

jscott36 said:


> I squeezed the brake lever with the wheel off and this caused the hydraulic calipers to close shut . . .


I --a l m o s t-- did that once.

As a daily commuter, I have a love/hate attitude towards hydraulic brakes because repairs and replacements are more complicated and often require a LBS. When my Hayes 9 system wore out I replaced it with a Shimano XT system. If I replace again, I'll try cable-actuated disk brakes.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

stingray said:


> I --a l m o s t-- did that once.
> 
> As a daily commuter, I have a love/hate attitude towards hydraulic brakes because repairs and replacements are more complicated and often require a LBS. When my Hayes 9 system wore out I replaced it with a Shimano XT system. If I replace again, I'll try cable-actuated disk brakes.


Really?! I can't imaging going back to cable actuated brakes again.

There's really nothing problematic or complicated about hydraulic brakes that require a LBS.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

If you do that, stick a clean screwdriver between the pads and push them back apart. Done! 

They're actually quite a bit more simple than cable disc brakes. Lower maintenance too. Ill never go back to cable disc brakes, they're a nightmare.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Without a change in thought process, stingray is what this thread title applies to us becoming.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

jscott36 said:


> Very intriguing and interesting points tualmbr. Thanks. I must say the tech and staff were friendly, competent, and worked hard and I got the bike back in under 3 hours.
> 
> This actually allowed me to ride this weekend, which is the first time I had a chance to ride this new bike (Full Sus from rigid, I still think I'm dreaming).
> 
> ...


Oh the cdale Rize or Rush, I love mine

That rear triangle might be the most valuable thing on the bike.


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## jscott36 (Nov 21, 2010)

I'm glad you're happy with the Rize. I've only had mine a short time but its been lots of fun.

I read a tip to getting the best mountain bike for your money It said, "Find the lowest price-point that keeps a company's top frame design.

The 2009 Carbon Rize 1 had an MSRP of $5850. Top pic is the Rize 1, bottom is my Rize 4. It looks like the same design. New the Rize 4 was $2400.

I'm learning their are many ways to get the best value in a bike. Just need to continue researching and playing it smart at the LBS.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Why would anyone go to cable-actuated brakes over full-hydros...especially XTs?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

cable-actuated disc brakes like BB7s and Spykes work very well, close to some hydros, when set up correctly. you don't have to faff about with fluids and you can fix them on the side of the trail or in the middle of a tour with tools your probably already have.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Had BB7s... agree...great brakes but nowhere close to XTs...sorry. They required constant fiddling. Fluids are not an issue...they really are set and forget nowadays. When have you ever heard of someone's brakes requiring trailside work as in blown hydro lines etc.? Hydro brakes are v. mature tech at this point and are the lowest maint part of my bike.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

"close to" and "nowhere close to." we are arguing semantics. some cable-actuated brakes can work very well or well enough to satisfy the needs of most riders. some hydraulic brakes also happen to suck compared to their mechanical counterparts. I was thinking of touring applications where a rider might be miles away from civilization, or a rider who rides every day who can't be bothered to leave a hydro setup at a bike shop for several days and would rather do it at home. cables make that easier. i think the topic of cables vs hydros has already been discussed to death in other places on this forum anyway.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

jscott36 said:


> I'm glad you're happy with the Rize. I've only had mine a short time but its been lots of fun.
> 
> I read a tip to getting the best mountain bike for your money It said, "Find the lowest price-point that keeps a company's top frame design.
> 
> ...


I actually think the Al version (Rize 3 and 4) had better longevity than the carbon frame version of the 1 and 2.

Now, if you are inspired to upgrade, getting a 140 Lefty would be worth it.

Although the brakes cost you some cash, it was a good upgrade. The Avid Elixars were marginal in terms of performance vs maintenance. Then, there's the dreaded turkey gooble of avids. There have been threads long enough to fill a Harry Potter book on that subject.


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## Game_Throne (Apr 12, 2015)

jscott36 said:


> *I just got a new full suspension bike* after riding a rigid for 24yrs. While I could handle most all repairs on my old bike, this new bike seems like a completely different ball game.
> 
> When cleaning the bike I squeezed the brake lever with the wheel off and this caused the hydraulic calipers to close shut (wheel was off).
> 
> ...


What new full suspension bike did you get for just $800?


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## jscott36 (Nov 21, 2010)

*Rize 4 - 140mm front, 130mm rear suspension*



Game_Throne said:


> What new full suspension bike did you get for just $800?


This 2009 Cannondale Rize 4 on Craigslist. I offered $700 and we settled on $800. It was on Craigslist for awhile. I think it is a buyer's market for 26" bikes.









Below is Bicycle Blue Book's value for the bike.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

indeed! if you want a good bike and you are not hung up on wheel size, you can get a 26" bike for almost nothing these days.


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