# 2010 R1's or 2011 XTR?



## rroadie (Aug 3, 2008)

Hello all, I was hopingfor some input to help with my decision.
My current XTR 975 brakes are done. No amount of bleeding, cleaning, lubing, pad changing etc can get them stop rubbing after a few km on the trail. 3 different shops have tried. 3 years out of them, they have been a finicky brake from the start but now it is really bad and the drag is noticeable and irritatingly noisy. 
Soooo, with one month left of racing I am deciding whether to pic up a set ofthe 2010 Formula R1's or to tough it out a few months and buy the new XTR which look sweet. Price is a wash as I get cost pricing.
Any helpful insight would be welcome and appreciated.
rroadie


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## adept1 (Jul 25, 2008)

If you're looking for something that's not fiddly/finicky I don't think R1 is the answer. While I do like mine, they are not without issue. They are extremely intolerant of any slight bend of a rotor, caliper misalignment, or debris like mud. Also, for some reason I have to use rotor shims on mine (2009 model on Hope Pro II hubs by the way). If I was in the market for brakes, I'd wait and see how the new XTR's pan out.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I am yet to use a disk brake that isn't finicky.

My wife has about 1500kms on the new XTRs. They have been bled once and the front needs to be bled again. No problems with brake rub though.

In terms of function they are far superior to any other XC stopper I have used.


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## rroadie (Aug 3, 2008)

Thanks. I just spent an hour wrestling with my XTR's. Not rubbing now as usual but will wait till after a couple of long rides this weekend to see if it starts again and if I can stand it any longer. If tolerable I will wait for the new XTR's.


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## wannabeRacer (Feb 9, 2004)

I say XTR


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## Marreiros (Dec 20, 2009)

I'm using R1's since the start of the season and they are flawless. I love them.


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## seppk (Apr 29, 2009)

Definitely Formula R1. An amazing brake all around. I haven't ridden with the new xtr brakes but have only squeezed them at a demo and I'm not a huge fan of the feel of the xtr's but that's just me. I really don't think you can go wrong with the formula r1 or any formula brake in general.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm over my 2009 XTRs getting soft and having a really long throw. The Ones on my DH bike always feel great so I just ordered R1s to replace the XTRs.


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## AZ-X (Feb 16, 2004)

LMN said:


> I am yet to use a disk brake that isn't finicky.
> 
> My wife has about 1500kms on the new XTRs. They have been bled once and the front needs to be bled again. No problems with brake rub though.
> 
> In terms of function they are far superior to any other XC stopper I have used.


I'd like to hear your opinion of the new XTR compared directly to the R1 or RX brakes from Formula in the 160mm size. What differences are there in stopping power, feel and function? Any comments?


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Brake rub was never the problem with XTR or XT. My pistons always evenly retract and the design puts more space between the pads and rotor than most brakes, so even flex or an imperfect rotor can't create drag. The problem was they have a long lever stroke, weak power, and always got soft and needed to be bled.

The R1s place the lever farther from the bar than I like and have the same amount of pad/rotor clearance as most brakes, not leaving a lot of room for a wobbly rotor. They're also rather abrupt and require a deft touch. However, if they're anything like my The Ones they'll never need bleeding, lack power, or let me down.
I got XTRs cuz they were really cheap and pretty light. However, they've needed frequent bleeding and have completely failed on me several times. Maybe they cut it on a pure XC bike but my idea of XC overheats them and requires more power than they have.

This is regarding the current model so I hope 2011 is a huge improvement.


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## culturesponge (Aug 15, 2007)

R1's are truly sublime compared to my old XTR M965 brakes that often used to often give me the willies (terrify) with their lack of power on steep descents + annoying as well - almost constant rub with incessant pad retraction issues

R1's + SwissStop pads (much thicker brake pads than Formula) are easy enough to set up not to rub too - even with slightly wobbly Scrub "workhorse" 180mm alloy rotors upfront

2011 XTR M980 trail brakes might be okay though - but are really hefty compared to R1's


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Not merntioned here is the ICE or cooling fins on the pads...

They may allow you to run a rotor size lower than otherwise....

Well if brake cooling issues have forced you up a rotor size.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm sure Shimano recognized the same problems we did and 2011 XTR brakes will be improved in power and heat management. However, R1s already addressed those issues and are lighter. If only the pads sat a little farther from the rotors and the levers could be adjusted a little closer to the bar I'd call them the perfect brake.


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## cddaraa (Oct 19, 2009)

R1's brake levers are not adjustable? Really??


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## hypercycler (Jul 7, 2009)

Levers are adjustable on the R1s....


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## culturesponge (Aug 15, 2007)

jeffscott said:


> Not merntioned here is the ICE or cooling fins on the pads...
> 
> They may allow you to run a rotor size lower than otherwise....
> 
> Well if brake cooling issues have forced you up a rotor size.


i would only trust those daft XTR brake fins to clog up with dirt within a few mins on my local trails! - what a joke 

also those new alloy + steel sandwich XTR rotors might work great back in the R&D lab but i'm not sold on them at all to last very long in the "real world" - think there will be pitting issues within a few hours

using a Scrub 180mm rotors upfront on the trailbike instead of the 160/160 on the "racer" because an 180mm rotor (alloy or steel) dissapates heat better + 180mm rotors improves braking power by 15-20%

R1's centre themselves with the rotor (as long as there's not too much brake fluid) just simply pumping the brake lever resolves minor rub issues with slightly wobbly alloy rotors.

recently clocked a few miles with R1's (+ Formula steel rotors + sintered pads = best + quietest braking of any disk brake used to date - very suprised with our R1's, really thought there would be a downside to the best weight + performance - but so far none at all :smilewinkgrin:

...i would ONLY recommend (or ride) the new XTR or SRAM XX brakes if i was sponsored/contracted to do so.











......edit to add pics........


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

AZ-X said:


> I'd like to hear your opinion of the new XTR compared directly to the R1 or RX brakes from Formula in the 160mm size. What differences are there in stopping power, feel and function? Any comments?


I haven't used the R1s so I can't compare them. But I am probably the only one posting who has used the new XTRs (race version).

The power on them is impressive, as is the modulation. They definately do not heat up like other brake I have used. On a seven minute descent in which I usually overheat 180mm rotors they performed great.

I find the new XTRs with 160mm on front and 140mm on rear are superior to my Juicy Ultimate with 180mm rotors on the front and 160mm on the rear.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Lelandjt said:


> If only the levers could be adjusted a little closer to the bar I'd call them the perfect brake.


I'll recant that. The Ones sit a little farther than I like but the R1s are close enough. Both are adjustable, its the limit I'm talking about.


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## Harold (Scott Spark ltd 2 (Oct 27, 2010)

*Formula R1*

Had R1's on my spark ltd for 18 months. Truly fantastic except for the rear piston retraction. So, as my local (expert) bike shop mechanic did not want to touch it, it was time to get back to my spannering skills of old. Seven hex nuts and some zip ties cut, the whole intact lever/hose/caliper assembly was in a BIG plastic tray, so no risk of brake fluis to paint etc. I didn't have the petal tool to extract the pistons, so had to make do with hydralicaly (spelling) pushing out as far as pos, then cleaned with isopropyl alcohol, teased them back in with a screw driver (yes, I was VERY careful), bled from the caliper end with an avid kit (wont go on the lever end, no problem as it was not on the bike), cleaned up, popped it back, perfecto. Postscript, now I need a new rotor for the front brake because a young friend of mine dis-obeyed the rules of riding faster behind another rider. Smacked into me, Swiss DT carbon rim, rotor etc, exploded, and me having a nice heli ride to hospital with 10 fractures and blood in my lungs. We should all join British Cycling for the third party insurance, then I could have sued my friend without any bad feeling. Take care. Harold


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

R1s may also have some rub problems because there really isn't much room in there between the pads however it is an AMAZING brake. 

They have enough power to take to northstar (one finger all day), enough modulation and brake feel (elixirs for instance have no brake feel at all) to ride a tire like race kings to the limit.

I've ridden only a handful of other brakes (each for at least a few hours on trails) but hopefully this will give you some idea.
R1s make 2009 XT brakes feel like an on off switch.
R1s make Avid Elixir R and CR (and probably all their taper bore brakes) feel like a wet sponge (they don't have any brake feel after all, shitty brakes are shitty even in a world without R1s).
R1s are a little better than 2007 Juicy 7s but way lighter (the only other usable brake I've ridden).

New XTR is an unknown, you'd really have to ride them. If pad clearance is a big deal to you though, R1s probably aren't the brake for you, and I don't really know what would be.


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

LMN said:


> I haven't used the R1s so I can't compare them. But I am probably the only one posting who has used the new XTRs (race version).
> 
> The power on them is impressive, as is the modulation. They definately do not heat up like other brake I have used. On a seven minute descent in which I usually overheat 180mm rotors they performed great.
> 
> I find the new XTRs with 160mm on front and 140mm on rear are superior to my Juicy Ultimate with 180mm rotors on the front and 160mm on the rear.


How is the brake feel on them? Do they fell numb or can you feel where the limit is? I find that, for instance, Avid Elixirs have fine modulation but I can't tell if I'm pushing the limit at all, they feel numb to me, it's freaky and kind of scary to ride. Have you ridden the old XT (is there a difference between XT and XTR?)?

In what way are they superior to your juicy ultimate? Just in terms of heat dissipation or power too?


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

litany said:


> If pad clearance is a big deal to you though, R1s probably aren't the brake for you, and I don't really know what would be.


XTR. Every other brake has about the same pad/rotor clearance, but XTR and XT have a lot of distance between the pads and rotor.


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## Ausable (Jan 7, 2006)

Seeing that most of the posters above complain with some sort of brake rub (which is more or less typical for any type of hydraulic brakes) does anyone have ideas on the lost wattage due to friction? I am afraid that the most severe cases are equivalent to runnning freeride tires on our 20lbs racing bikes


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

On both my R1s and The Ones there is no rub. I can see a little air on both sides of the rotor. When riding there is probably some flex and resulting rub (which Shimano avoids with a larger pad/rotor gap) but not enough to hear or feel it.

If there's enough rub to hear or slow a spinning wheel that's held off the ground it seems that it would be enough to slow you and sap energy on a long ride.


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

just to clarify myself, as I have basically no idea about disk brakes (although we have a scale with XT discs 2010 ferforming great so far), would you go back to v´brakes if your frame allows it, or still a bad disc brakes and the complex mainteinance is worthy over v's? 

Was planning on buying a disc brakes + new wheels somewhere in the future, but this thread makes me think about it again and again... Sure the bike looks better with discs, but it´s a 800€ investment... thanks ;-)


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

MaLoL said:


> just to clarify myself, as I have basically no idea about disk brakes (although we have a scale with XT discs 2010 ferforming great so far), would you go back to v´brakes if your frame allows it, or still a bad disc brakes and the complex mainteinance is worthy over v's?
> 
> Was planning on buying a disc brakes + new wheels somewhere in the future, but this thread makes me think about it again and again... Sure the bike looks better with discs, but it´s a 800€ investment... thanks ;-)


Good cable brakes can be quite good (I've ridden old XTR V brakes on a hardtail litespeed quite a bit) the only real problem with them is that they don't have the power of disc brakes. With a good set of disc brakes I can easily use one finger, with V brakes I need 2 and I still don't really get the same amount of power. I'd say it depends on your terrain and how much braking you'll be doing. For example, with normal XC riding, where you maybe don't have to brake very much they're fine, but take a bike with V brakes to some rougher terrain and more downhill and you'll really wish you had disc. For instance I've taken the litespeed down Gypsy (yeah I'm crazy) a few times and my hands were killing me because it took so much more effort to brake and hold onto the bars (it was worth it to watch the lift guys look super confused when they put a sub 20lb bike on the lift when they are used to dealing with 40lb bikes all day).

Really though, apart from worrying about pad rub disc brakes are super easy to take care of. I've never had a problem apart from rotors getting a little warped and squeaking, or having to replace pads (super easy, probably easier than with V brakes). All that said, I'd never go back to V brakes. No way.


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## litany (Nov 25, 2009)

Ausable said:


> Seeing that most of the posters above complain with some sort of brake rub (which is more or less typical for any type of hydraulic brakes) does anyone have ideas on the lost wattage due to friction? I am afraid that the most severe cases are equivalent to runnning freeride tires on our 20lbs racing bikes


 I just thought of a way to test, I doubt it's as much as the tires but you can find out how much your brakes hurt. Depends on how much you care 

Here's what I'd do:
The idea is you need to isolate the actual brake rub from the rest of the loss of the wheel rotating. To do this you need to do runs in at least 2 different setups.

What you need:
A bike
A balcony (ideal, can do without but you probably won't get the spin time you want)
String
A weight
Stopwatch
Powertap (not necessary, but could provide extra interesting data)

Procedure:
Step 1) Flip the bike upside down, you may want to put the bike at the top of a balcony or something with the front wheel hanging over the edge a bit.

Step 2) Wrap a bit of string around the wheel and hang a weight on the end of it dangling over the edge. When you let go the weight will pull on the string and accelerate the wheel. If you release the weight in the same configuration each time you should be able to get pretty repeatable results. The whole idea here is consistency so that we can make realistic comparisons. The reason for the balcony is we want a higher spin time. 2 seconds obviously wont cut it, so we want something longer, a minute or more if possible. If you have a power tap you may want to wrap the string around the cassette. Should cause the wheel to spin faster too.

Step 3) once the weight hits the ground, or stops accelerating the wheel after imparting all of it's energy onto the wheel start the stopwatch.

Step 4) wait until the wheel stops spinning and stop the stopwatch

Step 5) repeat until you start getting consistent results (work out your exact methods) then record stopwatch times for 3 trials

Step 6) In order to completely eliminate brake pad rub, take the brake pads out and repeat steps 1-5.

We should then have a nice little table of times and we can calculate the percent difference to get an idea of how much brake rub matters.

Bonus steps:
Step 7) get a camera and record a video of the weight just before it hits the ground next to a scale (ruler)

Step 8) analyze video to get a precise measure of the speed of the weight which we can then use to calculate the angular velocity of the wheel, and also rotational inertia. Use a stopwatch to time the weight falling and measure how far it falls. Calculations will depend on how you set it up, is the string around the cassette, tire or around the hub? how big is the tire around, how big is the hub around. This is probably easier and more useful than video taping the wheel itself, and more accurate than something like a cateye/powertap which has a slow polling rate.

Step 9) Calculate the initial kinetic energy of the wheel (have to determine rotational inertia first somehow) KE = .5*I*w^2 and compare it to the power tap results--hope the powertap doesn't suck and is accurate enough to have some idea of the energy inputted. Should give us an idea of how well everything is actually setup, we can then calculate the wattage of the rubbing rotor.

This is something I've been wondering for a while about but I haven't really cared because I can't really do much about it and I don't think it will have a huge effect (depends on how much rub you have). I just thought this whole experiment up so if you try it let me know how it goes, I might try this tonight if I get bored enough. Depending on how it goes I might try and measure actual wattage that the rotor costs me. This setup though will help me learn how (refine procedure and practice) to experimentally measure my wheel's moment of inertia which I'll need to know in order to calculate wattage lost due to rub. I've also kind of wondered if tubless (the sealant anyway) causes you to lose more energy (1-2W??) vs tubes. If I go through the trouble of doing this, I'll probably also measure loss due to sealant--at least if I can see any difference in spin down times--although it's probably on the order of like a second or something (4oz in race kings).

You'll notice that it isn't really exactly planned out, especially the bonus part, cause I just thought of it. When I get to it is probably how I'll figure out how I want to determine rotational inertia etc.

Resistance factors such as air and bearings shouldn't be much of a factor as they wont vary very much between the different setups. At least I don't think they will. I'm not really sure how to account for the shorter spin time considering the air will be sucking out less energy with the shorter spin with the rotor rubbing. Another obvious problem is everyone has different brake pad drag, so results will only really apply to that specific wheel. However *I* am only really intrested in drag due to rotor warp (for instance when both pads are lightly brushed by the rotor on their way round--something I think is probably a common problem among weight weenie rotors). Also if drag isn't bad enough it might not make any difference. I'm not really interested in bad drag either, cause if it's really bad then it's easily fixable, but if it's just minor annoying drag that you can't really fix, that's interesting.

Yeah, I know this is kind of insane and pointless but if anyone has any tips or comments lemme know!


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## BShow (Jun 15, 2006)

Did you try straightening your rotors?


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## AlexRandall (Apr 2, 2009)

To the OP

If you want the lightest (and also most powerful for its weight) brake then the R1 is it. After some initial issues with the setup (due to a too-thick layer of ?paint) mine have been almost trouble free. The brakes themselves have been super expensive and you don't get rotors in the initial price. Parts are a little harder to find, and are also a bit more expensive, but these I guess are the costs to owning such solid brakes.

Shimanos work well, use non corrosive fluid and are generally a pretty good choice for most riders, but are heavy for WW brakes. I've also known several sets to have issues with chronic sticky pistons (so they drag due to the piston not retracting). The 'worst' pair would require the owner to have to reset the pads almost every ride.


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## sabresix (Dec 24, 2006)

Yeah, the M975s were pretty mediocre, but the initial reports of the M985s seem pretty good - if you can find them in stock anywhere...


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## Dikkie (Dec 16, 2005)

The XTR 2011 brakes were tested in Bike magazin (december issue).
In the testlab and on a 700hm descent the 'sandwiched' aluminum in the discs melted and rendered them unusable.
Guess the advise for long downhills is to use another disc.
Another weard result: de XC version had more power vs the Trail type brake with servo-wave.
Wouldn't be surprised if they mixed up these results.


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## rarekin (Mar 4, 2009)

Another issue with the tested 2011 XTR was a leak at the joint, where the hose enters the lever body. The testers report, that 2 out of 3 brakes had this problem.


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## Onetrack (Oct 5, 2004)

Any link to this review of the new XTR brakes. I wonder if the leak was just a loose fitting?


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## cddaraa (Oct 19, 2009)

Onetrack said:


> Any link to this review of the new XTR brakes. I wonder if the leak was just a loose fitting?


As it says 2 posts above it is a test of a German magazine (http://www.bike-magazin.de/). You won't find any info on their site.
It would be interesting if a German friend who has it, posts some of the results of the tests. Not only for the xtrs but also for the other brakes.


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## fastback67 (Apr 6, 2010)

> The XTR 2011 brakes were tested in Bike magazin (december issue).
> In the testlab and on a 700hm descent the 'sandwiched' aluminum in the discs melted and rendered them unusable.
> Guess the advise for long downhills is to use another disc.
> Another weard result: de XC version had more power vs the Trail type brake with servo-wave.
> Wouldn't be surprised if they mixed up these results.


this sounds very ridiculous to me.
shimano is a highest professional company and test their stuff a long time and under hard conditions before release.
i think this german bike magazine needs a big catch line for profit  
how did they test? or to ask in a better way: did they test in a serious way with realistic conditions?
by just brakeing some minutes with very high power you can destroy every discbrake out there


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

fastback67 said:


> this sounds very ridiculous to me.
> shimano is a highest professional company and test their stuff a long time and under hard conditions before release.
> i think this german bike magazine needs a big catch line for profit
> how did they test? or to ask in a better way: did they test in a serious way with realistic conditions?
> by just brakeing some minutes with very high power you can destroy every discbrake out there


Particularly since those of us have been using the new Shimano stuff for a couple of months have never had those problems. On one of our local trails in which I usually over heat 205mm rotors I have had no problem with heat build up on the ice rotors in 160mm front and 140mm rear.


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## dvo1 (May 28, 2006)

I love my R1s scared of the aluminum lever bolts though.

My XTR brakes fell awesome, but they are heavier and I need to put some time on them.


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## Burnt-Orange (Dec 10, 2008)

http://www.bike-magazin.de/?p=3746

SJ


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## Salt Cycles (Sep 25, 2004)

Just put a set of 2011 XTR race brakes on my rigid ride and am loving them so far. Stopping power seems great and I am sure will only get better over the next several rides. New levers are really nice and the pull on them is super easy.

:thumbsup:


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## Dikkie (Dec 16, 2005)

With the race versiopn there is no pad contact adjustment?
Any probs with rubbing?
The melting in the bike test could be the 'glue-compound' that's keeping the sandwich construction together seeping out???


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Dikkie said:


> With the race versiopn there is no pad contact adjustment?


No Shimano brakes have pad contact adjustment. They do have reach adjustment. A knob on Trails, a bolt on Races.


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

to answer to original question:

*R1* :thumbsup:


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## rarekin (Mar 4, 2009)

fastback67 said:


> this sounds very ridiculous to me.
> shimano is a highest professional company and test their stuff a long time and under hard conditions before release.
> i think this german bike magazine needs a big catch line for profit
> how did they test? or to ask in a better way: did they test in a serious way with realistic conditions?


What are serious/realistic conditions?

There was a laboratory testing and real-life testing.



fastback67 said:


> by just brakeing some minutes with very high power you can destroy every discbrake out there


 There was a total of 9 disk brakes, that were tested.

Avid Code
Avid XO
Formula The One FCS
Hope Tech V2
KCNC DB X7
Magura Marta FR
Shimano XTR XC
Shimano XTR Trail
Trickstuff CLEG2

The test was the same for all of them.


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## Burnt-Orange (Dec 10, 2008)

Lelandjt said:


> No Shimano brakes have pad contact adjustment. They do have reach adjustment. A knob on Trails, a bolt on Races.


the m988 trails have free stroke adjustment and reach per spec sheet 
there is a small screw on the front of the master cylinder for this adjustment 
looks like the race dose not have this

SJ


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## Phil335 (Feb 17, 2010)

R1 for sure


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## tiflow_21 (Oct 27, 2005)

Digging this thread back up since I'm trying to make a similar decision, 2011 R1s or 2011 XTRs. Putting them on an XC race bike that will be mainly used in the midwest, although I plan to take it on a few longer races such as the dakota 5-0.

Has anyone had more experience to directly compare the R1s to the new XTRs? I've already kicked the idea around endlessly and read all the threads I could find. Just looking for some real world experience. I'm already about 95% set on the R1s, but for whatever reason the XTRs keep sticking out in the back of my mind. Is the rotor clearance really THAT bad on the R1s? I've been using various hydro discs over the past 5 years, so have a decent amount of experience aligning calipers and truing rotors.

The only experience I've had on formula brakes was at whistler, both the bike park and the XC trails. I believe I was using the oro series, seemed to be amazing brakes. Great modulation and power. The last set of shimanos I had were circa 2009 XTs and they also were great brakes, although I had a clicking in the rear caliper after about 6 months, it didn't seem to affect performance and seemed to be due to a sticky piston.


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## Onetrack (Oct 5, 2004)

I am curious too. Anyone have any longer time opinions on the new XTRs vs Rs


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## babar (Feb 20, 2004)

comparing to R1 the M988 trail are simply fantastic...better power and by far better modulation.
I had in the past: marta, mono mini, Oro puro, R1 and now XTR trail and what I can say is that these brakes are ahead of the pack for braking.

Yes no perfect weight weenies brake winner (here R1 are still leaders) despite a decentt weight but best brakes for XC and AM racers.


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## Dikkie (Dec 16, 2005)

If you want to save some weight and ride trails that don't require much cooling capacity, use brake pads without cooling fins.
I have a set too and immediately ordered the race brakepads.
I'm keeping the trail pads for more demanding rides.


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## tiflow_21 (Oct 27, 2005)

babar said:


> comparing to R1 the M988 trail are simply fantastic...better power and by far better modulation.
> I had in the past: marta, mono mini, Oro puro, R1 and now XTR trail and what I can say is that these brakes are ahead of the pack for braking.
> 
> Yes no perfect weight weenies brake winner (here R1 are still leaders) despite a decentt weight but best brakes for XC and AM racers.


What issues did you have with the R1s? What model year(s)? How much time do you have on the XTRs?


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## Jerome (Dec 21, 2003)

LMN said:


> I haven't used the R1s so I can't compare them. But I am probably the only one posting who has used the new XTRs (race version).
> 
> The power on them is impressive, as is the modulation. They definately do not heat up like other brake I have used. On a seven minute descent in which I usually overheat 180mm rotors they performed great.
> 
> I find the new XTRs with 160mm on front and 140mm on rear are superior to my Juicy Ultimate with 180mm rotors on the front and 160mm on the rear.


Yes, but Avid Ultimate are some of the least powerful disc brakes out there - I know, I got a pair and they don't compare to Formulas, hi-end Shimanos or Maguras.


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## babar (Feb 20, 2004)

> What issues did you have with the R1s? What model year(s)? How much time do you have on the XTRs?


I was almost pleased with the R1: slight improvement over the Oro puro( better modulation) and same issue with leak on the handelbar when you are pushing the piston back when changing pads.

New XTR are simply the new generation for disk brakes but it is true that I have only 2 months of history with them: I install them from stock and even didn't adjust the hydraulic tube as it fits perfectly the long line required to a scott spark (no bleed required)

I was not impressed by previous year sXTR disk brakes but was forced to recognized that here with the new generation they have an impressive product.

My wishes would be to have now power and modulation from the XTR trail and weight from R1..

Concerning overheat reported by German mag with Ice Rotor...I need to mount them to test it. I am living in the alps so 700m negative is not that difficult to find.

For the time being I am using old Shimano XTR center lock rotor (180/160) and have new Ice rotor ready to install which are slighly lighter (20g per rotor) at comparable size.

True that XTR race pads are ligher than XTR Trail fan pads. I have ordered XTR race pads as well in order to shave another few grams (10g? 15g? 20g? TBC)


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## Dikkie (Dec 16, 2005)

The German mag test was not performed in an 'everyday' manner.
They only used the front brake under continuous braking.
The rear brake was not used for safety reasons.
This modus operandi certainly toned down the negative noise about these brakes for me.
Bought them!


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## cmv96 (Aug 19, 2004)

If you're looking for something that's not fiddly/finicky I don't think R1 is the answer. While I do like mine, they are not without issue. They are extremely intolerant of any slight bend of a rotor, caliper misalignment, or debris like mud. If I was in the market for brakes, I'd wait and see how the new XTR's pan out.


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## jnr_seahorse (Feb 8, 2010)

I'll dig this thread up again!

I'm getting fed up with the rotor drag on my R1's and was considering switching to XTR.

Before I make the jump does anybody know if the R1 FCS system helps with the rotor drag? Might try this first before switching my entire brake system.

JS


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## Devastazione (Dec 16, 2009)

cmv96 said:


> If you're looking for something that's not fiddly/finicky I don't think R1 is the answer. While I do like mine, they are not without issue. They are extremely intolerant of any slight bend of a rotor, caliper misalignment, or debris like mud. If I was in the market for brakes, I'd wait and see how the new XTR's pan out.


I'll second all of that,but when I use my Avids or Hayes and then go back to my beloved R1's it feels like heaven !!! I'll gladly look after mud or misalignement :thumbsup: ,amazing brakes,just amazing !!

Don't know about the 2011 XTR's,they seem to be a hit or miss from what you read around so far.


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## Dikkie (Dec 16, 2005)

I use XTR Trail.
180mm discs.
They've seen no mud yet, only lots of dust.
Shortened the hoses, replaced the winged pads with the race version.(No long downhills)
Bled them with 2 syringes and took my time sucking out all the bubbles and pressing down and pushing the oil up again.
+ Superb brakingaction, only one finger stopping and great modulation.
+ Very clear contact point.(after bleeding them)
+ Small lever, good ergonomics.
- Sticky pistons front and rear, one side refused to come out fully in each caliper.
Did a search on the net, seems to be common, so took out the pads, pressing the lever gently and let the pistons come out +/- 2 to 3 mm and clean them. Next lubricate them with a bit of mineral oil and pushing them in and out a few times.
Everything is fine now.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Dikkie said:


> - Sticky pistons front and rear, one side refused to come out fully in each caliper.
> Did a search on the net, seems to be common, so took out the pads, pressing the lever gently and let the pistons come out +/- 2 to 3 mm and clean them. Next lubricate them with a bit of mineral oil and pushing them in and out a few times.
> Everything is fine now.


This same process should be done (but usually with a teflon lube) on any brake experiencing sticky pistons or rubbing. Did it to my R1s and The Ones and they've been perfect since.


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## Veda (Dec 17, 2009)

XTR Race's heavier but my buddies got no problems. R1 on the other hand, full of woes... I'm actually in the same situation and decided on the XTR's since they cost $150 less a set than the R1.


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## rapsac (Sep 26, 2004)

I have used Formula Oros, very good but... leaking at master cylinder.
After that R1, very very good but leaking at master cylinder...
R1 were repaired, but again leaking at master cilinder! To be repaired again :-(
It is a shame that Formula is unable to get these leakages at the master cylinder membrane fixed for once and for all.
So (hopefully as a final solution) I just bought and installed XTR race. I use them with Formula 180/160 mm discs and Formula adapters (from my R1 set)

Initial impressions (after only one ride at Lake Garda, Italy):

[+]
power (already) almost at R1 level
very good modulation
easy install and shortening hoses (no bleeding needed for me)
a big plus: no membrane at your handlebar... saves your carbon handlebar's clearcoat (also mineral oil instead of DOT)
more toptube clearance
[-]
+/- 60 grams heavier per brake than R1
no I-spec for 9 speed XTR shifters :-(

Will post an update after my holiday this week...


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## rroadie (Aug 3, 2008)

I ended up going for the R1's last year and really should've waited for the 2011 XTR's. The R1's have been noisy and drag prone, no better than the old er XTR's they replaced. I've tried 3 different types of rotors (best results with XX) and had it in to two shops to try their luck too.
Ah well.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

I've been using the XTR 985 brakes for a couple of months now and I gotta say they are amazingly strong and easy to modulate. Without bedding in the rotors, the brakes have eye popping stopping power, and they maintain that power. I actually switched the rear brake to a 140mm so that I could balance the front and rear modulation without having to overthink the rear. I'm in the 200 pound range and they provide stopping power unlike the Marta SL's, 970 XTR/Storm SL, Hope Mono Mini or Avid Ultimates that I've used. It's a good thing the levers are as short as they are or you would just constantly chuck yourself over the bars. 

Not super light in the 320gm/pr range but they will ruin you for any other brake for stopping and ease of modulation. When I switch back to my bikes with Marta SL or XTR 970's, it's like trying to stop a car without the power brakes.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Never been a fan of shimano brakes. I run Formula The Ones My10's on both my bikes, amazing brakes and never had any problems with disk rub. How have you set your brakes up?

I always set all my brakes up using the following hope method:


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## tiflow_21 (Oct 27, 2005)

For what it's worth I decided to go with the XTR trails over the R1s. I've been running them for about 3 months now with 4 XC races in the mix and they're amazing. RockyUphill pretty much summed it up. By far the best brakes I've ever owned, when I go back to my other bikes it feels like I have much less power and control. Definitely glad I chose the XTRs over the R1s as I've heard quite a few complaints about the R1s recently.


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## Climber999 (May 2, 2009)

I have used both the XTR985 and R1. 
They have pretty much the same stopping power, but the XTR has way better modulation, the lever ergonomic is superior and the pad clearance is much wider. The only thing going for the R1 is the weight (and the sexy look, which I don't give a hoot about). 

So, in my mind, the XTR is superior with a weight penally. Ask yourself, how important it is for you to shad 100g?


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

Well, I was debating between some Hope X2's, XTR's and R1's. Money was sort of the issue but I could have waited a few more weeks. In the end, I got a screaming deal on a set of XTR's and couldn't be happier. Over the other two, I really love the ergonomics of them. 

Pad contact has not been an issue so far though I don't have a lot of miles on them. On the other hand the front one is giving me a little trouble as it is not biting like the rear one. But I have all the stuff now to do a good bleed on them and suspect I will get that straight this evening. Don't get me wrong, i would still love to pick up a set of R1's for the weight savings alone.

These are the weights for my new XTR's. Culturesponges R1's blow these weights out of the water!


XTR M985
front: 209g
rear: 223g
hardware
front: 9g
rear: 9g
Total: 450g hardware, cables, lever, and caliper

Weights don't include rotors though I have KCNC's fr/rr at 74g ea.


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## Erhar (May 11, 2012)

Formula R1 have no competitors!!:thumbsup:


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

^I love R1s and The Ones but I'll conceed that the pads sit very close to the rotor and make setup a more precise operation. Also any bend in the rotor will cause rub. The Shimanos feel and work great so if pad clearence is bigger priority than weight Shimano should be your choice.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Just ordered xtr trail brakes with 180 rotors to replace my r1x brakes. Didn't realize there was a weight penalty. The R1Xs are okay. A bit finicky to get them not to rub. They came on my rocky mountain 970. Are the R1Xs much heavier than the R1s?

Right now I am having a hard time finding the xtr front caliper adapter for a 180 rotor. No one seems to stock it.

BTW if someone is looking for R1X brakes I will sell mine when the xtr ones come.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I beleive R1Xs are slightly heavier due to steel hardware and a less svelte master cylinder. From those to XTRs will be another slight gain. You can probqbly make it a near wash with Ti and alu bolts for XTR.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Does anyone sell a bolt kit for the xtr?


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

After you get them you'll have to measure all the bolts and buy new ones from Toronto Cycles. Use aluminum where you can get away with it and Ti for more stressed bolts.


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## JimJohnson (Jan 27, 2021)

rroadie said:


> Hello all, I was hopingfor some input to help with my decision.
> My current XTR 975 brakes are done. No amount of bleeding, cleaning, lubing, pad changing etc can get them stop rubbing after a few km on the trail. 3 different shops have tried. 3 years out of them, they have been a finicky brake from the start but now it is really bad and the drag is noticeable and irritatingly noisy.
> Soooo, with one month left of racing I am deciding whether to pic up a set ofthe 2010 Formula R1's or to tough it out a few months and buy the new XTR which look sweet. Price is a wash as I get cost pricing.
> Any helpful insight would be welcome and appreciated.
> rroadie


If you want to sell your OR Toad jersey please let me know, thanks!


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