# DesignShine... WOW!



## Azra (May 20, 2011)

I just got me a DesignShine taillight... and it is astounding.  I never though I'd see such a thing, but somebody has just bested the venerable DiNotte 400R. I put them side by side outside, the difference is plainly visible.

I'll post a video shortly, but first I have some work-type work to finish, a very unfortunate circumstance. I'll get to play with my new toy this afternoon.

I also got the DesignShine front light. But I can't really put it to work until it gets dark.

More in a few hours... including a waterboarding. :arf:


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

In the interest of full disclosure:


I am not affiliated with DesignShine or any other company.

I paid the front light in full a few weeks ago.

I received the back light as a test with a NET 30 invoice.
If I like it and want to keep it, I'll have to pay for it.

The price of those lights is as follow:


Front light: $204

Read light: $185

3-Cell battery: $35

6-Cell battery: $55

As far as I know, DesignShine (web site) is not a regular-type company. It's more like a guy building those lights in his garage as a labor of love.

Next: is the labor of love waterproof? You know I have a beef with lights that are as waterproof as a pair of fishnet stockings.


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

The front light (with handlebar clamp) and the rear light.

Sorry, this is a cell phone pic. You can find better pictures on the DesignShine web site.


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

And now for the fun... muhahaha! :devil:

Like I said, the front light is mine, I paid for it. The rear one is not.

Am I crazy to waterboard my own light? ut: Well, I want to know that the darn thing will work next time I ride in a downpour. If it's not waterproof, f*** it! I don't get to choose when I get caught in bad weather, neither should my light.

In the picture: two lights and two batteries.


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

So far so good, they've been submerged for 25 min, I don't see any bubbles and they are still working.

And now the cat is drinking water from the bowl! :yikes:

Alright, 35 min. I'm calling it a successful test. Perfect!


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

Silly cat's gonna be blind now.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

interesting. glad to see a mix of XP-G and XR-E on the front, should make for a good mix of spot and flood. Don't know why he didn't just use 2 XM-Ls though - the optic/ reflector options for the XM-L at that size are far better than for small triples. Hope it makes a good run of it!

rear light is a bit much for me though


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

Well, yes, the rear light is something Satan himself would use. I ride on the roads in an urban/suburban environment all the time and get buzzed within a few inches of my life by cars going 40-60 mph. I need something that will jolt those stupid drivers out of their cell phone/texting stupor. If it blinds them in the process, so be it.

The light has 5 intensity modes, BTW. And DesignShine is adamant the brightest mode should not be used at night. Will see...


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

This is the video - side by side comparison of the DiNotte 400R and DesignShine DS-500 taillights.

*



*
Video was taken at 2 pm. Very bright sunny day. In these conditions a normal $25 taillight would be totally invisible. But these are not normal taillights, these cost $200+.

The video was taken with a cell phone and is unedited. It is not entirely true to reality - the DiNotte 400R is quite a bit more visible to the eye than you would think watching the video. I think it has something to do with the flashing pattern of the 400R and the frame rate of the video. But the DesignShine DS-500 really is that much better.

Note that both lights come short when viewed from the side. Again, the DS-500 is better at a 90 degree angle, but not as good as I would like.

A word of caution:

It does look like the DS-500 is eating the 400R for breakfast, doesn't it? It really is that much better. *But* the 400R is a phenomenally well built and reliable little light. It is not a gold standard for nothing. The DS-500 still has to prove itself in everyday use. Ask me again in a year if I still think the DS-500 is a better taillight.


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

This, hopefully, should take care of the video frame rate. Both lights are in steady mode, brightest setting. Both are excellent, but the DS-500 is quite a bit better. There really is no contest there.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Azra said:


> Silly cat's gonna be blind now.


Ha! Ha! Ha!.....Me's a laughing real hard...:lol::lol:....Oh...but I think cats usually close their eyes somewhat when they drink....

Anyway....Wow!...Just over $200 for a duel triple! That is like a killer deal! I will be watching with baited breath! BEAM PIC's!!


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

mattthemuppet said:


> interesting. glad to see a mix of XP-G and XR-E on the front, should make for a good mix of spot and flood. Don't know why he didn't just use 2 XM-Ls though - the optic/ reflector options for the XM-L at that size are far better than for small triples. Hope it makes a good run of it!
> 
> rear light is a bit much for me though


Just a point of clarification...
One triple is an XP-G
while the other is an XP-E

The XM-L actually didn't exist at the time I was finalizing the design. The XM-L triple is coming, however, in the same way that the XP-G creates a wider beam than the XP-E for the same optics, this will happen again for the XM-L. So the improvement over the XP-G may be minimal with the 20mm triple optics. I agree that the larger single optics and reflectors are a better way to go for the XM-L. One of the design aspects was to be able to actually use the light that escapes out the side of the optics, so the triples fit the bill nicely for that.

Full disclosure - I'm the "guy in the garage" designer of these lights. My intent for posting was just to clarify some details and answer some questions.


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## BritOnTour (Feb 17, 2011)

Wow, I really wish I had heard of DesignShine before I bought my Magicshine. Yeah, its about 1/2 the price, but the beamshot comparison between the two is astounding! If I ever get into night riding in a serious way, I will be buying one of these lil bastards!!


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

pethelman said:


> Just a point of clarification...
> One triple is an XP-G
> while the other is an XP-E
> 
> ...


that makes sense - I've read of other builders mixing XP-E and XP-G, either as 2 triples or in a 7-up, to get a good mix of flood vs. throw. As for the XM-L, I agree, it's easy to forget the time lag between design and production, plus all the effort that goes into sorting out optics. I can't off the top of my head remember what depth 20mm triple optics are, but if these are 20mm triples, then a 20mm XM-L star + LXP-RS optic should drop in easily and would provide an awesome beam pattern (I have a dual XM-L light with a Laura RS (square LXP-RS) and CXP-RS and the beam is amazing). THe housing looks like it should be able to dissipate 2x [email protected] and the Lflex from Taskled would work perfectly with a twin LED setup and the 2S Magic Shine batteries you existing lights work with. Oh, and if you're thinking triple XM-L, the 35mm Cute SS optics are supposed to be awesome, though that might need a rethink of the housing (3 XM-L U2 @3A = ~3000lm theoretical though )

None of that is meant as criticism of your current lights, I think they look awesome and great value (the batteries especially so), just some ideas for future versions.

Azra - I can see how the rear light would help in city environments, I'd just be careful of roadrage that's all!


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## nick d (May 25, 2007)

Azra said:


> Silly cat's gonna be blind now.


half my ebay listing have furry little 'helpers' in the photos


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks Matt, I REALLY appreciate your ideas and comments on any possible improvements. I'm about to ship my first light for a helmet-mounted off-road-only MTB application. He's said that he intends to write up a review here (MTBR) on his experience, which should be interesting. When I last checked, the single XM-L 20mm optics offerings from Carclo were a couple of mms taller than the triple optics and required a holder, so I couldn't use them with the current design. I'd be curious to see the spec dimensions on the LXP-RS. So who's the supplier of choice for the Ledil optics? Newark?. Thanks again.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Oh, and just to clarify one more thing...
The Magicshine 2-cell packs (8.4V) work fine with the taillight (with a minor programming change to the controller).
But the 2-cell is really pushing it for the headlight (read not recommended) since the internal drive voltages are so high. Better to go with the 11.1V (3 cell) for the headlight.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

pethelman said:


> Thanks Matt, I REALLY appreciate your ideas and comments on any possible improvements. I'm about to ship my first light for a helmet-mounted off-road-only MTB application. He's said that he intends to write up a review here (MTBR) on his experience, which should be interesting. When I last checked, the single XM-L 20mm optics offerings from Carclo were a couple of mms taller than the triple optics and required a holder, so I couldn't use them with the current design. I'd be curious to see the spec dimensions on the LXP-RS. So who's the supplier of choice for the Ledil optics? Newark?. Thanks again.


you're very welcome 

Last time I checked, the Laura RS (I'm assuming the LXP RS is the same) was 12mm from base of holder to top of optic. Although they come with a holder (I use them after cutting screw/ solder pad cutouts) they optic itself is easily removed and lots of builders (Troutie for one) on the DIY forum machine a lip on their housing for the bare optic to sit in at the right height. Laura RS are from Newark and you can get LXP RS from Digikey.

I don't know what driver you're using (boost I'm guessing? Maxflex?) but if you were interested in a twin XM-L helmet light, the Lflex running off a 2S pack would be ideal. Max drive of 3.5A, all the bells and whistles (temp monitoring, battery warnings, different user modes) of the bigger drivers but smaller (20mm) and cheaper ($25). I'll be ordering one soon to make a single XM-L light for a friend so no first hand experience, though I've used b2flex and h6flex drivers to great effect.

If you want more advice (and better quality too, I'm still new at this), jump on over to the DIY light forum, they're very helpful and friendly.


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## Chromagftw (Feb 12, 2009)

WOW, the beam shots are stunning! So I'm guessing 2 of these on the bars would be overkill?

Tremendous work Pethelman! :thumbsup:

https://sites.google.com/site/designshinelighting/beamshot-comparisons


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Chromagftw said:


> WOW, the beam shots are stunning! So I'm guessing 2 of these on the bars would be overkill?
> 
> Tremendous work Pethelman! :thumbsup:
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/designshinelighting/beamshot-comparisons


*Chromagftw*, thanks for the link to the beam shots. Very impressive they are. I do have some questions for the builder....Mr. *Pethelman*, very well done I do say. What degree/brand optics are used? For the battery, why not a 14.8volt? About the driver, can it be programed for 3 or 4 mode operation and how do the modes change ( circular or up/down ) ?

Any now the big question: Is there any way to buy one with a remote? ( custom order? )


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

*I'm going to play the devils advocate why give beams shots comparing it to an old p7 magicshine? 
wouldn't a more realistic comparison be made between maybe a Bikeray4 . That would be more apples to apples.
I like the look of this light might have to pick one up just to check out:thumbsup:*


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

I'll answer than last one, Catman.

As shipped, the thing has 5 steady modes, 5 flashing modes, and one button to control all that complexity.  Personally, I didn't like it at all. It's too complex and too confusing. But that's me. Somebody else may like it.

But it's possible to reprogram the thing into something a bit simpler. I found the manual for the maxFlex5A online last night and I reprogrammed my light - probably to Mr. Pethelman horror. Just imagine what damage I can do now... like crank up the current to 2 amp and get 2000 lumens out... muhahaha! :devil:

Anyway, I got my light in duomode - steady hi/low, flashing hi/low. I like it much better now.

It's not possible to completely customize it - you just get to select from a number of preset modes.


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

Rakuman - yes, I agree with you, comparing the DesignShine to the old MS is not entirely fair. Comparing it to the BR IV would be more meaningful.

And that's exactly what I've done last night.  I want to ride some more with the DesignShine before I comment further. But based on one short ride, I found this:

- The DS puts (rated at 1300 lumens) puts out more light than the BR IV (allegedly rated at 1500 lumens).

- The DS has more throw.

- The BR IV may have a little bit more flood, but not much.

Anyway, I want to ride again tonight and then I'll post some more impressions.


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## Chromagftw (Feb 12, 2009)

Azra said:


> I'll answer than last one, Catman.
> 
> As shipped, the thing has 5 steady modes, 5 flashing modes, and one button to control all that complexity. Personally, I didn't like it at all. It's too complex and too confusing.
> 
> ...


Azra would you happen to have that linky to the manual? I'd be interested to take a looksie.

2000 lumens do it!!! You might melt your front knobbies.

_EDITED_:

Thanks Azra: http://www.taskled.com/leds/maxflexuni_v4.00.pdf


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

Just google *maxflexuni_v4.00.pdf*


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

said:


> Rakuman - yes, I agree with you, comparing the DesignShine to the old MS is not entirely fair. Comparing it to the BR IV would be more meaningful.
> 
> And that's exactly what I've done last night.  I want to ride some more with the DesignShine before I comment further. But based on one short ride, I found this:
> 
> ...


*Thanks Azra
If anyone would be able to compare the two it would be you:thumbsup:*


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

Azra said:


> I'll answer than last one, Catman.
> 
> As shipped, the thing has 5 steady modes, 5 flashing modes, and one button to control all that complexity.  Personally, I didn't like it at all. It's too complex and too confusing. But that's me. Somebody else may like it.
> 
> ...


if it's a Maxflex then you can do pretty much whatever you want with it, other than run it at 2A (max drive current is 1.3A). I prefer threemode with L1>L3 or 4>L5. Click from L1 to go to L3/4, click to go to L5, every click then cycles between L3/4 and L5 (med and high essentially) with a press to go back to L1 (low). That way you can go between bright and REALLY bright with a single click, but go back down to low/ dim when you need some trailside light or don't want to blind your mates when you stop.

I don't know how the 2 triples are wired to each other - I thought in parallel based off the option of a 2S pack, but if 3S is recommended then they'd have to be in series. In which case there's no reason why a higher voltage pack (4S) can't be used. Weight vs. runtime I guess.

I'm not 100% convinced by the beamshots, although it's always difficult to judge a light when it's not in your hands. The hotspot is enormous, but with a dark ring around it and seriously wide spill. Clearly the light is very bright (as it should be), but I prefer a smoother transition between spot and spill, which is why I'm so nuts over the XM-L + Laura RS combo. Still, beam pattern preference is a very personal thing


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

In response to your questions...
Carclo optics.
One thing that I particularly like about these lenses is that there are a lot of options. "Azra" is using the spot-spot combination, which may be the best combination on the road. Certainly good for off road as well (it's what you see in the beam shots), but now that I've tried one, I would probably replace the spot lens on the XPG side with the narrow-frosted lens for off road, which adds a little more width and completely fills out some of the peripheral darkness that you can get with two pure spot lenses. If you have a low to the ground application, like a trike, then dual elliptical lens work fantastically well for that.

As far as the 14.8V supply... Yes, this works just fine with the Maxflex and the series connection of LEDs in the DS-1300. The only thing you would give up is the lowest power levels for a while with a fully charged pack, which is probably a non-issue. Mostly, the 11.1V was chosen as the best option to run both the headlight and the taillight (both using the Maxflex controller).

The Maxflex does provide the ability to remotely locate a power switch without any electrical issues (i.e. noise causing false signals), and I can do this as a custom mod. Just requires an extra hole drilled in the back of the case. I've done this for a recumbent with the light way out front and the switch back on the handle of the under-seat steering. The case-mounted switch still remains functional, since it's simply in parallel with the remote switch.


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

So you can hook up a 14.8V battery to the headlight just like that? No reprogramming needed?

How about the taillight? Also compatible with 14.8V?


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Azra said:


> So you can hook up a 14.8V battery to the headlight just like that? No reprogramming needed?
> 
> How about the taillight? Also compatible with 14.8V?


Yes. 14.8V can be hooked up directly and the light will operate just fine. The only negative is that you can lose a couple of the lower power levels (L1, L2) for the headlight with a fully charged pack (16.8V). HOWEVER, if you want the light to to give you any kind of battery status indication or perform an automatic shutdown prior to the battery pack itself shutting down when it trips it's own low voltage protection (assuming it has this function), then you would need to enter in the appropriate voltage levels into the flash memory on the controller via the menu-driven programming structure that is accessed through the power switch.

The taillight is a different story, and 11.1V (3 cell) packs is as high as you can go with that one.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*Triple_Optics_Comparison*

Since we were on the topic of discussing optics...Out of curiosity, I took a couple of additional beam shots comparing triple optics combos.
For reference, the fence posts are 8 feet apart. Standard MTBR settings. The narrow frosted on the XPG does a pretty decent job of smoothing out the edges, while the XPE spot maintains most of the throw. All shots are with the light on Level 5, 700mA drive.

Although mentioned earlier, these images are also available at:
https://sites.google.com/site/designshinelighting/beamshot-comparisons

1st shot
XPG-Spot, XPE-Spot (notice the darkish band around the main beam)









2nd shot (definitely smooths things out, minor trade off in throw)
XPG-Narrow Frosted, XPE Spot









3rd shot... just for fun
Both lights at the same time. Alright, that's just ridiculous.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

pethelman said:


> Yes. 14.8V can be hooked up directly and the light will operate just fine. The only negative is that you can lose a couple of the lower power levels (L1, L2) for the headlight with a fully charged pack (16.8V). HOWEVER, if you want the light to to give you any kind of battery status indication or perform an automatic shutdown prior to the battery pack itself shutting down when it trips it's own low voltage protection (assuming it has this function), then you would need to enter in the appropriate voltage levels into the flash memory on the controller via the menu-driven programming structure that is accessed through the power switch.
> 
> The taillight is a different story, and 11.1V (3 cell) packs is as high as you can go with that one.


Okay, I see. Maybe a good idea would be to use three 4000mAh , 26650 cells in series...well just an idea. Another couple questions....Does the user have the option of switching optics or is the front pretty much sealed? What is the max current to the LED's set at, 1A? Lastly, is there an anodized ( black ) version?

So far I really like what I'm hearing. Man, I can really visualize one of these on the Niterider ( over the stem ) mount I have, especially if I can get it with a remote. Right now I have a single triple XPG ( K-lite ) that uses a remote and I am really hooked on remotes. ( Not to mention bike lights in general... )


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## OldAusDigger (Apr 8, 2008)

Pethelman, is the "try before you buy" offer for USA customers only?
I'm in Australia and am very interested in your tail light. 
Cheers - Digger.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> Okay, I see. Maybe a good idea would be to use three 4000mAh , 26650 cells in series...well just an idea. Another couple questions....Does the user have the option of switching optics or is the front pretty much sealed? What is the max current to the LED's set at, 1A? Lastly, is there an anodized ( black ) version?
> 
> So far I really like what I'm hearing. Man, I can really visualize one of these on the Niterider ( over the stem ) mount I have, especially if I can get it with a remote. Right now I have a single triple XPG ( K-lite ) that uses a remote and I am really hooked on remotes. ( Not to mention bike lights in general... )


Boy I really wanted this to be the case (user switchable optics), however the water sealing process does practically require that I seal the lens cover to the case. The lenses themselves are sealed off with O-rings between the edge of the lens and the clear lens cover, so once I'm out of the current stock and start thinking about future units, I may try to pursue a custom die-cut silicon gasket (very thin 0.008") to go between the lens cover and housing, where I'm currently using flowable silicon. I did make one with the silicon only adhered to the lens cover itself, but it literally took me two days to get it right. Very tedious. So the short answer for now, unfortunately, is no, BUT if the end user were willing to take on the fairly easy task of sealing up the lens cover, then riding with the lens cover un-sealed in dry weather only to do an "evaluation" of different lenses would certainly be possible. Then later the favorite combo could be sealed in?

Do you have a particular remote switch that you like?

All of the aluminum in the assemblies has been black anodized like you see in Azra pics above. I did have some un-anodized pics on the web-site though.

700 mA really is as high as I would go (~13.5 watts) or the heat losses in the controller (Maxflex) can start to become excessive.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

OldAusDigger said:


> Pethelman, is the "try before you buy" offer for USA customers only?
> I'm in Australia and am very interested in your tail light.
> Cheers - Digger.


Well, sure. But the shipping would eat you alive if you decided to return them.

I'm actually about to ship a set out to a guy in Semaphore (Adelaide, South Australia) and it's going to cost around $45 to ship insured from the US. If you were anywhere close by that location, maybe I could put him in touch with you and he could give you a "demo."


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

OldAusDigger said:


> Pethelman, is the "try before you buy" offer for USA customers only? I'm in Australia and am very interested in your tail light.


That offer is pure sales gimmickry, I'm here to tell.

Since Mr. Pethelman had offered to send me the light on a NET 30 invoice (i.e. free), I thought, "_How cool! I get one, play with it a little bit, have some fun, and then ship it back._" 

Well, f****! :madman: Now I need to find the money somewhere to pay for it. Trust me, once you see that baby, you will *not* be sending it back.


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

One last word on the taillight: I agree with DesignShine that level 5 is too much at night. But it's great for the day, especially in inclement weather conditions like a bad summer rainstorm. Or when you are riding into the sun and you are afraid some idiot will hit you from behind because they are blinded by the sun and can't see anything. Well, level 5 will outshine the sun.  

My DiNotte 400R has been sent to the closet, I never thought it would happen. Sniff, sniff! :sad:


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## OldAusDigger (Apr 8, 2008)

pethelman said:


> Well, sure. But the shipping would eat you alive if you decided to return them.
> 
> I'm actually about to ship a set out to a guy in Semaphore (Adelaide, South Australia) and it's going to cost around $45 to ship insured from the US. If you were anywhere close by that location, maybe I could put him in touch with you and he could give you a "demo."


I'm in Sydney, which is about 1000 miles from Adelaide. I think I've already made my mind up that I want one anyway. The photos and videos are pretty convincing, plus the exchange rate for our dollar is very good right now. The biggest hurdle will be sneaking funds away without my wife knowing :madman:
Do you have limited stock? I mean if it takes a few weeks to get the money together, is it possible I'll miss out?


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

OldAusDigger said:


> I'm in Sydney, which is about 1000 miles from Adelaide. I think I've already made my mind up that I want one anyway. The photos and videos are pretty convincing, plus the exchange rate for our dollar is very good right now. The biggest hurdle will be sneaking funds away without my wife knowing :madman:
> Do you have limited stock? I mean if it takes a few weeks to get the money together, is it possible I'll miss out?


Yes, unfortunately very limited unclaimed stock right now. I'm slowly filling orders off of a reserve list that I've been maintaining for some time now, but I don't doubt that there may be a few reservations that fall through, which would free up some additional stock. I think Azra posted a link to the web site earlier and from there you can check up on the status of the available stock and/or get on the reserve list.


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

More on the DS vs BR IV comparison...

I was again riding tonight with both lights. It's 85 degrees and humid. While riding both lights stayed relatively cool. But the DS was noticeably less warm to the touch. However, when I stopped, both started getting hot at about the same rate.

I would conclude that the DS probably has more efficient air cooling.

After a few minutes the thermal protection on the DS kicked in and it went from Level 5 to Level 2. Very nice. Perhaps a little too conservative, I think thermal protection may have kicked in a bit too soon, but that's not a bad thing since heat is the enemy of longevity.

The BR IV on the other hand continued to shine in high mode and got steaming hot. I actually burned myself when I touched it. Eventually I shut it down because I really though it's gonna f* up the electronics inside. So, yeah, nice job Bikeray!

Now, to be honest, my BR IV has been damaged by water so maybe that's why thermal protection does not work. But water got in in the first place because the light has been assembled by monkeys and has a fatal design flaw to boot.


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

Now on to the beam comparison.

The DS looks like it's putting out more light. In any case everything in front of the light looks much brighter because the beam is better focused.

The DS has quite a bit more throw than the BR IV. I can't really say how much more without taking measurements. But let's just say it's quite a bit more, but not wow more.

Now the flood. That one was puzzling me all night long. I was riding on a paved trail and kept switching from one light to the other. In terms of flood only, I couldn't really tell the difference.

Then I came to a twisty little downhill section following a bike overpass. I did that little twisty section back and forth a few times with one light, then the other. Result: it's clear that the BR IV was better.

Also, if I aimed both lights at a large empty field, it's immediately clear that the BR IV has quite a bit more flood.

But I don't ride on empty fields. And I don't ride that much on twisty trails either. For my purposes, and I'm a roadie, the DS with the spot-spot lens is perfect. If you ride off road, you may want a bit more flood.

The beauty of the DS is that Mr. Pethelman is hand-assembling them one by one and he can customize your light for you.

_Edit: All this was with both lights on my handlebars. I haven't tried mounting the DS or the BR IV on my helmet._


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

BTW, if you are wondering how come I still have the BR IV, the story is simple: Bikeray refunded my money but never formally asked for the light back so I haven't been in a hurry to ship it since it'll cost me money. The light is useless to me, but in this case it came in handy for a comparison with the DS.

And you know what really strikes me comparing the two lights: what a crying shame that BR IV is. The DS is a better light, there is no doubt about that. But if the BR IV were waterproof and built a little bit better, would the DS be worth the extra $100? Probably not. But that's a moot point.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Azra said:


> BTW, if you are wondering how come I still have the BR IV, the story is simple: Bikeray refunded my money but never formally asked for the light back so I haven't been in a hurry to ship it since it'll cost me money. The light is useless to me, but in this case it came in handy for a comparison with the DS.
> 
> And you know what really strikes me comparing the two lights: what a crying shame that BR IV is. The DS is a better light, there is no doubt about that. But if the BR IV were waterproof and built a little bit better, would the DS be worth the extra $100? Probably not. But that's a moot point.


Not to dredge up the past issue but it looks as though the Bikeray people wanted you to be happy with the light. Unfortunately that didn't happen. Fast forward to today....In retrospect, if you had returned the light ( before asking for the refund ) and had asked them to give you another in exchange, only one that was modded by Bikeray to be weatherized ( i.e. virtually waterproof ) I bet they would have been more than glad to accommodate your request ( or the request of others ).

Anyway, you now have a working Ray IV for free ( as I do ). Some grease on the front and sealant on the back and it should be fine OR grease on the front and tape over most of the back and it should be fine. I don't ride in rainy weather anyway and if I do by chance catch a shower hopefully my weatherized light will hold up....Anyway, water under the bridge as the saying goes.

I'm sure Bikeray ( the factory ) will improve the product if they have not done so already. I'm sure BikerayUSA, as the major vendor for Bikeray, were as displeased as you ( if not more ) about the product's reliability in wet weather. At least they did right by you in refunding the cost of the light. Hopefully I would like to see a new version of the Ray IV, weatherized and with a true three mode output ( High, medium, low ). The current low mode is not bad but a true medium mode is definitely needed to be competitive with the newer lights.

Currently I have gone back to using my triple XP-G ( K-Lite ). The K-Lite, although not as floody on high as the RAY IV has about the same throw and a better medium mode than the Ray IV. Not to mention the K-Lite is using a remote which I just love. I will continue to use and alternate the lights intermittently depending on terrain or the need of the moment.

The DesignShine is perking my interest though, particularly if it can be ordered with a remote. Once you go with a remote, it is real hard to give up.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Azra said:


> More on the DS vs BR IV comparison...
> 
> I was again riding tonight with both lights. It's 85 degrees and humid. While riding both lights stayed relatively cool. But the DS was noticeably less warm to the touch. However, when I stopped, both started getting hot at about the same rate.
> 
> ...


I did take a very conservative approach to heat management. I've seen what heat does to LEDs over time, so I wanted to gives these the best chance possible at a long life. Believe it or not, that little case has nearly 30 square inches of exposed aluminum cooling surface area, which is why it runs relatively cool with a little air flow. The thermal limit was set so that you could come to a stop on the bike for a few minutes without it dropping to the lower power level, but beyond that, it really does need to throttle back to protect the LEDs and electronics. One of the reasons this works so well is that the MaxFlex electronics, which contain the temperature sensor, are extremely well coupled (thermally) to the case via a custom aluminum part and high performance thermal compound. The LEDs are also extremely well coupled to the case via Artic Alumina.

There is such intense competition in the headlight market, and now with the Chinese cranking out tens of thousands of throw-away lights, there is ZERO chance of a custom USA-made light like this ever competing with the price of the mass-production lights. I do try to make up for it, however, with a level of quality design that should last a very long time.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

@ pethelman - when will we be able to buy the mtb helmet version? 

I really like the flood/spot combo picture. You only sell the spot/spot version now, correct?


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

pethelman said:


> There is such intense competition in the headlight market, and now with the Chinese cranking out tens of thousands of throw-away lights, there is ZERO chance of a custom USA-made light like this ever competing with the price of the mass-production lights. I do try to make up for it, however, with a level of quality design that should last a very long time.


I think these offer exceptional value and if I heard of anyone in the market for a new light, I'd point them your way (and to the Scar Amoeba and Baja Stryker). You'll never be able to compete with the Chinese lights on price and it's unlikely you'll get many sales from people that think $60 for a light is a lot of money. You're really competing with the big brand lights on price, output and features, and on that front you come out very well. Given that you can almost get 2 of these for the same price as a L&M Seca 700....


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

pethelman said:


> There is such intense competition in the headlight market, and now with the Chinese cranking out tens of thousands of throw-away lights, there is ZERO chance of a custom USA-made light like this ever competing with the price of the mass-production lights. I do try to make up for it, however, with a level of quality design that should last a very long time.


I really do not think of the DS-1300 as competing with Chinese lights.

I compared it to the BR IV because it's the only 1000-1500 lumen light I have at hand and because it was fun. But it's also only academic because the BR IV cannot sustain the kind of "abuse" I put my lights through. Let it be said again, it only lasted a week before it went belly up on me in the first rain.

No, the *real comparison* I did was this one: do I want to spend my money on the DiNotte 1200L+ or on the DS-1300? So far I'm very happy with my choice although I'm sure the 1200L+ is also an excellent light.

As for the DS-500 taillight, it's without competition at any price. I'm still astounded.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

d365 said:


> @ pethelman - when will we be able to buy the mtb helmet version?
> 
> I really like the flood/spot combo picture. You only sell the spot/spot version now, correct?


The light body is already compatible with the existing Cateye helmet mount bracket ($9 part). When I build the battery packs for the helmets, I usually build the connector into the pack itself with no pigtail wire (makes for a clean install). Then you can use the extender cable as an option for off-helmet batteries.

I can make whatever combination of lenses you desire. In general, I like to keep the pure spot lens on the XPE triple, since it does throw so well, but then for the XPG triple, you could use a narrow frosted lens, or a medium frosted, or even a wide. Personally, I think the medium frosted in combination with the pure spot would make for a super nice, single light solution on the helmet, but I really do need feedback from more riders to determine what works best. IF there turns out to be a tiny corner of the market for a light like this and IF I can manage another run of lights (cost and time-wise) after the current batch, then I have a design mod worked up already that would allow the clear lens cover to be removable (and still waterproof) and the lenses to be user-swappable, just by removing the single hold down screw. For the current design, however, it is sealed to the aluminum body, so you have to decide prior to build, what lens combination you want.
Helmet mount pics here:
https://sites.google.com/site/designshinelighting/image-page


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

mattthemuppet said:


> I think these offer exceptional value and if I heard of anyone in the market for a new light, I'd point them your way (and to the Scar Amoeba and Baja Stryker). You'll never be able to compete with the Chinese lights on price and it's unlikely you'll get many sales from people that think $60 for a light is a lot of money. You're really competing with the big brand lights on price, output and features, and on that front you come out very well. Given that you can almost get 2 of these for the same price as a L&M Seca 700....


Azra and Matt...

Thanks very much for your opinions on the lights! I definitely value your experience on the topic.


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## Chromagftw (Feb 12, 2009)

pethelman said:


> I can make whatever combination of lenses you desire. In general, I like to keep the pure spot lens on the XPE triple, since it does throw so well, but then for the XPG triple, you could use a narrow frosted lens, or a medium frosted, or even a wide. Personally, I think the medium frosted in combination with the pure spot would make for a super nice, single light solution on the helmet, but I really do need feedback from more riders to determine what works best.


Stephen, its a great offering you have there. I agree with the triple for the XPE and a triple for the XPG with either a narrow or medium frosted lens - especially if bar mounting was the case. I can imagine you are pretty swamped with other commitments right now but it would be great to see the medium frosted and wide frosted comparison.

The double DS-1300 beam shot does not strike me as overkill by the way. I've always run 2 identical lights on the bars on either side of the stem (coupled with a throw light of some sort on the helmet) and have never been disappointed. Durability and long term reliability aside, i think with 3 DS-1300 --> 2 on the bars and 1 on the lid, matted with the appropriate optics in each, one would have all the bases covered. You might not need it an every application such as tight winding single track but its there for the using when warranted!


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

I have to say, Chromagftw, I agree that two of those babies would rock!

Last night when I was riding on the trail - and keep in mind it's 2:30 am and I'm alone by the river, and I'm a woman. A big and strong woman that has punched sexual harassers in the face more than once, but still a woman. So I'm riding on that trail and I see *something* in front of me. Looks like some guy doing _something *weird*_. But what??!! F****!

I had my DS on. I punched the button on the BR IV and now I suddenly had 2500 lumens! And I could clearly see that the guy was just fixing his bike.

It really is cool to have that many lumens. I loved it. But the DS and the BR IV and two batteries on my handlebars... that's just too much of a mess. Way too much.

Now, if I had some extra money burning a hole in my pocket, I'd get another DS-1300 and power the two lights from a single water bottle battery. Now that would be a cool setup.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Chromagftw said:


> Stephen, its a great offering you have there. I agree with the triple for the XPE and a triple for the XPG with either a narrow or medium frosted lens - especially if bar mounting was the case. I can imagine you are pretty swamped with other commitments right now but it would be great to see the medium frosted and wide frosted comparison.
> 
> The double DS-1300 beam shot does not strike me as overkill by the way. I've always run 2 identical lights on the bars on either side of the stem (coupled with a throw light of some sort on the helmet) and have never been disappointed. Durability and long term reliability aside, i think with 3 DS-1300 --> 2 on the bars and 1 on the lid, matted with the appropriate optics in each, one would have all the bases covered. You might not need it an every application such as tight winding single track but its there for the using when warranted!


Holy beam-patterns Batman...
I really couldn't imagine having THAT much light on the trail at night. Talk about riding in daylight.

But you may have inspired me to try it. I just "happen" to have three of those things laying around. 

Time to break out the test rig and take some more beam shots! With a QUAD triple on the handlebars, I'd be temped to run Elliptical, Medium Frost, Narrow Frost, Spot.

You really do take a pretty big efficiency hit on the wide angle frosted, but I'll try a shot with it just so we can see how it looks. I like the way you guys think!


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

Better yet, Pethelman, send those lights over to me and I'll do the that tedious testing for you.


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## savvas (Mar 21, 2011)

*from Adelaide...*



OldAusDigger said:


> I'm in Sydney, which is about 1000 miles from Adelaide..


Hi Digger,

Greetings from Adelaide. As soon as I get my DS lights I'll try to take some pics out in the street and would be happy to post them somewhere. These will be a big change for me as I've been 'dynamo only' for the last decade or so! Sydney is a long way from Adelaide init!

regards,

Sam.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Very informative thread :thumbsup: !


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## OldAusDigger (Apr 8, 2008)

savvas said:


> Hi Digger,
> 
> Greetings from Adelaide. As soon as I get my DS lights I'll try to take some pics out in the street and would be happy to post them somewhere. These will be a big change for me as I've been 'dynamo only' for the last decade or so! Sydney is a long way from Adelaide init!
> 
> ...


Thanks mate, that's very kind of you. I'll send you a PM with my mail address. 
Yeah, Adelaide would be a fair drive. I was just guessing the distance though, having never driven there. When I was in the army, we flew to RAAF Edinburgh a few times, and did some pre-deployment traing at Cultana, but I've never really visited Adelaide properly though. 
When you get your DS tail light, how bright do you intend to run it at night? I would imagine it would have to be well under 50% so you don't piss off everyone else, or you might even get pulled over by the cops.


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## savvas (Mar 21, 2011)

OldAusDigger said:


> ...Yeah, Adelaide would be a fair drive....
> 
> When you get your DS tail light, how bright do you intend to run it at night? I would imagine it would have to be well under 50% so you don't piss off everyone else, or you might even get pulled over by the cops....


Off topic I know, but I'm often amused by what seems to be misunderstanding of those outside of Oz about how 'big' Australia is. I know that the USA is a similar overall size to Oz but we only have a population about the same size as that of greater Los Angeles! I mean no disrespect of course to Mr Pethelman, but I imagine there's a lot of difference between long distance driving in the USA and here. I've travelled Australia quite a bit and it's something that you start to take for granted.

Driving the 1400 or so km from Sydney to Adelaide you can pass through only a half dozen towns of any size. Most settlements will be not much more that a petrol pump and maybe a small supermarket and sports ground. In the USA you'd likely (especially towards the East coast) drive through linear suburbs extending for 100s of km. My brother lives in Perth which is some 2700km away with maybe 3 substantial towns and a heap of desert along the way. Lots of bike tourists have underestimated what that really means...

Back on topic, as regards riding at night, the setting will depend entirely on how p---ed off I am with car/bus/truck drivers on any one particular day ;-). No seriously - while I intend taking Steve's advice about the blinding potential of these lights, especially at night - I also intend using them to make my presence as a road-user felt! That's basically my whole reason for investing in them. I've been a dynamo user for years and will continue to be. I've also used the PBSF and whatever else I can get my hands on to signal my presence.

But I'm a commuter-rider only, usually in early morning or at dusk, and always traveling East-West-East. I never get out onto rural roads where drivers usually have plenty of time to size your presence up and I often ride at times when bike lights have to compete with the riding & setting sun, with hangovers and work exhaustion and with commercial drivers starting work. I am heartily sick of 4WDs and commercial vehicles driving across my path to enter slip lanes, cars zooming out at T-junctions without noticing me and buses trying to squeeze between me and right-turning cars at the lights.

I want to be seen and I want drivers to think of me as a Mack truck coming their way or riding alongside them! While I will do my best to avoid excessive glare, p---ing anyone off is my least concern I'm afraid. And I imagine and home that the local police (many of whom are bike riders themselves) will be in awe!

Sam.


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## OldAusDigger (Apr 8, 2008)

savvas said:


> I want to be seen and I want drivers to think of me as a Mack truck coming their way or riding alongside them! While I will do my best to avoid excessive glare, p---ing anyone off is my least concern I'm afraid. And I imagine and home that the local police (many of whom are bike riders themselves) will be in awe!
> 
> Sam.


Well the DS-500 looks like the light for the job! The build quality looks to be first rate as well. Seeing that you already have a dyno hub, check out the Aussie made K-Lite Red also. I know you've already made a substantial investment in a hand made quality product. But if you've got some money to spare, I imagine combining a mega lumen battery powered tail light with a dyno one that isn't that far behind in terms of brightness (steady mode only though for dyno lights), will give you a 700 plus lumen tail light combo with built in redundancy. 
That should be brighter than a Mack truck!

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=578674
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?252835-K-lite-RED-rear-LED-tail-light


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

At night both the DS-500 and the DiNotte 400R are about equivalent since you have to run the DS-500 in a lower power setting.

But where the DS-500 has a big advantage is side visibility. It didn't look like much of an advantage at day. But at night, it was like "WOW!!!"

That K-Lite Red, as far as I can tell (and I could be wrong), has exactly zero side visibility. Anybody can take a front light, slap on a red lens, and turn it into a taillight. But that doesn't make it a good taillight.


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

BTW, the DS-1300 front light also has side markers. Some black tape is included so you can cover them if they bother you.

They didn't bother me at night, and the added safely is certainly welcome.

But there's something else. That light on the side can be used to illuminate a computer. I'd just have to carefully position the light and my powertap computer and I could see my watts when I train at night. :thumbsup:


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## TrailBound29er (Oct 13, 2010)

Hey Guys,

Just throwing out some info here .... I will be getting Peth's helmet mount tomorrow (assuming the UPS plane doesn't fall out of the sky tonite).

By the end of the week I should have some preliminary pictures and reviews up for the MTBR crowd.

I will be swapping some lenses around and reporting back to Peth so he can put the information to good use. Of course, everyone here will be able to read the reviews as they go. I will also be taking pictures of the the multiple beam patterns & intensities in order to provide information. My goal is to try to take some "on the trail" shots rather than "in the back yard" in order to present a realistic picture of what this light is doing.

Please take note that it will take a few months in order to give a comprehensive review and additional pictures. Not exactly dark "early" yet.

Peth .. your wafer thin silicon gasket idea is really good! I will still have my local machinist friend look at how an o-ring gasket can be incorporated for the lens. But your solution sounds _much_ easier.

Matt ... you are correct about beam pattern being subjective. And I understand/agree that a smooth transition is nice. But if you're bumping your way thru the woods at night, I doubt there is any chance you'll even notice the semi-abrupt transition in pattern. I do not have, nor am I buying a vid camera for everyone's enjoyment. 

I'll keep everyone posted here and in my appropriate thread.


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## OldAusDigger (Apr 8, 2008)

Azra said:


> At night both the DS-500 and the DiNotte 400R are about equivalent since you have to run the DS-500 in a lower power setting.
> 
> But where the DS-500 has a big advantage is side visibility. It didn't look like much of an advantage at day. But at night, it was like "WOW!!!"
> 
> That K-Lite Red, as far as I can tell (and I could be wrong), has exactly zero side visibility. Anybody can take a front light, slap on a red lens, and turn it into a taillight. But that doesn't make it a good taillight.


Azra, you are correct about the K-LIite, but I still think it would be a very useful "back up" tail light to the DS-500 for those who happen to be running a dyno lighting system. When I commute to work, I always run 3 tail lights in case of failures. Although I've yet to see either the K-Lite or DS-500 in person, I've come to the conclusion (based purely on what I've seen & read on the net) that the DS-500 is most likely the best bicycle tail light on the planet. All it needs now is to show it's reliable & robust to fully de-throne the Dinotte.


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## TrailBound29er (Oct 13, 2010)

Hey Azra ...


Any way to convince you to sell your "old" lights?


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

OldAusDigger said:


> I always run 3 tail lights in case of failures.


Geez! What unreliable lights are you using?

I've used the DiNotte 400R for many years, day and night. It *never* let me down.

First impression with the DS-500 is good. On the outside, the lens may be a bit more exposed than on the 400R, but otherwise it looks pretty sold. Maybe less resistant to scratches, tho. Inside, I trust Mr. Pethelman built it carefully and well. I've seen plenty of evidence that he does pay a lot of attention to details. I have no qualms using that taillight without a backup.


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

TrailBound29er said:


> Hey Azra ...
> 
> Any way to convince you to sell your "old" lights?


Sure. Twist my arm while waving some gold, a Pinarello Dogma, and a Di2 groupset in front of me... or just PM me.


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## TrailBound29er (Oct 13, 2010)

Azra said:


> Sure. Twist my arm while waving some gold, a Pinarello Dogma, and a Di2 groupset in front of me... or just PM me.


I tried that ... you do not have the PM feature operational on your account. Only the "leave visitor message"

Hence me having to dangle a Colnago CLX 2.0 in front of you.


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Azra,

Do you have any pictures of the DS-500 on your bike ?


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## OldAusDigger (Apr 8, 2008)

Azra said:


> Geez! What unreliable lights are you using?
> 
> 1 x Radbot 1000 and 2 x PBSF (1/2 watt version).
> Links for the 1% of riders who don't know these 2 lights -
> ...


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## TrailBound29er (Oct 13, 2010)

Waiting for UPS here ..... hurry up dammit ! 




OldAus ... try blackmail. Take some pics of her and threaten to release them on the net if she doesn't let you get the tail lights. If she resists ... sell them and use that money to buy the lights. :lol:


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

TrailBound29er said:


> Matt ... you are correct about beam pattern being subjective. And I understand/agree that a smooth transition is nice. But if you're bumping your way thru the woods at night, I doubt there is any chance you'll even notice the semi-abrupt transition in pattern.


I have noticed this on my DIY helmet light which have Regina reflectors (wide-ish spot, spill at ~1/2-1/3 of the intensity, similar to a MS beam with out the dark ring off-spot), where your eyes adjust to the brightness of the spot, then struggle to see something just outside it. It's not that much of an issue on a helmet light, as you just move your head slightly, but I wouldn't want it on my bars, hence the optics in that light.

Again, I ride fairly open but extremely rocky singletrack where I'm looking at stuff from 2ft to 50ft away. If I rode very tight densely wooded singletrack, it wouldn't be as much of an issue. So, in addition to personal opinion, there's also riding conditions to consider


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

suba said:


> Azra,
> 
> Do you have any pictures of the DS-500 on your bike ?


Until Azra has a chance to respond, I thought I could add a pic or two here.

I really do like the way the mounting arrangement turned out. Very solid, with easy quick release.
The seat post as well as either side of the seat stays is an option. Although the picture shows the light above the brakes, you can just as easily mount it below the brakes on the seat stay and the side emitted light will shoot through the spokes at night. Easy to lock down the aiming with a single 5/64" Allan.

Note that on the seat post option, the extender bar does have to be angle down like you see in the pic.


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## OldAusDigger (Apr 8, 2008)

TrailBound29er said:


> Waiting for UPS here ..... hurry up dammit !
> 
> OldAus ... try blackmail. Take some pics of her and threaten to release them on the net if she doesn't let you get the tail lights. If she resists ... sell them and use that money to buy the lights. :lol:


Ha ha ha..... if only it were that easy :lol:
In my former life I used to think of myself as a hard bastard  . I've served my country in Somalia, Timor, Soloman Islands & Afghanistan where there were plenty of nasty people hell bent on trying to hurt me. But now.... I've got nothing  Cause thesedays NOBODY scares me more than my wife!!!


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## Brooks04 (Jun 1, 2004)

OldAusDigger said:


> Ha ha ha..... if only it were that easy :lol:
> In my former life I used to think of myself as a hard bastard  . I've served my country in Somalia, Timor, Soloman Islands & Afghanistan where there were plenty of nasty people hell bent on trying to hurt me. But now.... I've got nothing  Cause thesedays NOBODY scares me more than my wife!!!


A wise person once told me it is much easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission when it comes to purchasing bike stuff. Luckily I have a very forgiving wife  Hopefully this will be the case if I end up purchase one of these lights.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

mattthemuppet said:


> I have noticed this on my DIY helmet light which have Regina reflectors (wide-ish spot, spill at ~1/2-1/3 of the intensity, similar to a MS beam with out the dark ring off-spot), where your eyes adjust to the brightness of the spot, then struggle to see something just outside it. It's not that much of an issue on a helmet light, as you just move your head slightly, but I wouldn't want it on my bars, hence the optics in that light.
> 
> Again, I ride fairly open but extremely rocky singletrack where I'm looking at stuff from 2ft to 50ft away. If I rode very tight densely wooded singletrack, it wouldn't be as much of an issue. So, in addition to personal opinion, there's also riding conditions to consider


Matt and TrailBound... you guys are hitting it exactly. The beam pattern vs. light intensity vs. riding conditions vs. speed all add up to make it virtually impossible to have a "one best solution." I'm finding that for every different combination of the above conditions, there are pros and cons to just about every headlight setup. Some more than others obviously, but my experience on the road has been similar to what Matt describes. If I run with too much intensity, then my eyes get conditioned to that brightness, making peripheral distinctions more difficult. However, if I take the light down a notch or two in brightness, I find that my eyes adjust AND I have better peripheral vision with no perceived penalty in throw.

This seems to be a very true statement:
There is a BIG difference between standing back and scrutinizing a beam pattern while not moving (especially when viewing beamshot pictures), compared to actually riding with the light.

I went out and road for an hour at night (road use only) with the DS-1300 swapping out between various combinations of lenses. In every case the XPE triple was using a pure spot, but for the XPG, I tried the pure spot, narrow frosted, and medium frosted lenses, all with the lights on the bar. (The game changes AGAIN if you mount the light on the helmet. I'm going to let TrailBound handle that one...)

Here are some impressions from that ride:
1. No matter what lens combination I used, the light was extremely effective at illuminating the road for me, even down at level 3 (630 lumens). I never found a combination that was bad, by any means. Differences yes, but all completely rideable. I couldn't out-run any combination, even on fast down hill (<30mph), but when you're really getting on it down a hill, level 5 just gives you that extra confidence.

2. It's a tough call deciding which power level to use. To my eyes, the 630 lumen level is just about perfect with the spot-spot combination for most pavement. If you hit some freshly paved, very black pavement, then it's nice to have the extra power levels. The darker band around the main beam is very subtle (looks much worse in the beam shots than it really is) for the spot-spot combo and unless you are intentionally looking for it, you soon don't even notice it. On the road, you do get slighter better distance performance with the dual spot, and I do mean slightly.

3. I can see how the triple mode of operation may be better than the five-level (multi-mode) mainly due to the mechanics of dimming the light. In the triple mode (low-med-high), clicking the button just cycles between the three levels. So if you're at high (L5), then it's nice just to do a single click to dim for oncoming motorists, rather than a press-and-hold.

4. During the course of the hour ride, I got treated like a motorized vehicle at every single encounter with a car. I never approached a car at more than level 3, and never got bright lighted. At least 5 or 6 times, I had cars waiting to turn left in front of me while I was still 100 yards away. They would always just sit there for the entire time that it took me to close the gap, and wait till I had passed to turn left. Same story with cars pulling out from side streets. Cars from behind were giving me the entire lane on two-lane roads when passing.

At the end of it all, I have a very hard time deciding which lens combination I like best. A agree with Azra that the spot-spot combo may be best for pure road riding, but then again, I have a hard time finding any fault with the spot-narrrow-frosted combo. I would say that I think the medium frosted maybe just goes a bit too far for pure roadies mounted on the bar, but on the helmet, that medium-frosted combo ROCKS! I still get a silly grin on my face every time I try it.

I plan on uploading the high-res versions of all the new beam shots on the DesignShine website "beamshot" page, but until that happens, I put together a video slide show that you can view here:






Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to annotate the video yet, but eventually I'll have the particular lens combos and mounting location called out for each shot. The camera was mounted in the same relative location as your eyes would normally be while riding. The bottom most edge of each picture is only about 2 feet away from the front wheel. The first cone is 25 feet away from the lights, and each subsequent cone is 25 ft apart. Last cone at 125ft.

Last three slides are just for fun... 2600 lumens, 3900 lumens, and 5200 lumens (call the fire department).


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## Chromagftw (Feb 12, 2009)

Stephen, nice vid!

Either your neighbors are oblivious to what goes on outside their doors OR they are very understanding. Break out the shades!


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Chromagftw said:


> Stephen, nice vid!
> 
> Either your neighbors are oblivious to what goes on outside their doors OR they are very understanding. Break out the shades!


Thanks,
It was about midnight when I did the test, so I was hoping that everybody was asleep, plus I didn't have to disturb the setup mid-stream to get out of the way of any cars. I did kind of shoot in a hurry and "run away" if you know what I mean


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

pethelman said:


> I couldn't out-run any combination, even on fast down hill (<30mph), but when you're really getting on it down a hill, level 5 just gives you that extra confidence.


I can confirm that. I was riding last night on a parkway. 4 lanes wide, flat/little downhill and straight - so very fast when you start hammering in the drops. And completely dark. BTW, it's totally illegal to ride a bike there, but I can't be bothered with rules and regulations.

Last time I was riding there was with the BR IV and I was wishing for more throw. Not so with the DS! Perfect. :thumbsup:



pethelman said:


> 3. I can see how the triple mode of operation may be better than the five-level (multi-mode) mainly due... blah blah


Ha! :ihih: I told you multimode/superlock is way too complicated. But noooo, you won't listen. :nono: :bluefrown:


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

OldAusDigger said:


> 1 x Radbot 1000 and 2 x PBSF (1/2 watt version).


Not bad for little blinkies but you will find the DS-500 in a totally different league.



OldAusDigger said:


> But my wife still hasn't calmed down since I spent over a thousand bucks on my front lights.


Can't say I blame her. If I was married to some %@[email protected]@! that's spending all his paycheck on himself instead of buying me chocolate, ice cream, tiramisu, and bike lights, I too would be f-ing furious.

No, seriously, try playing the safety card. Does she want to see you under one of those B-Double trucks?


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

suba said:


> Azra,
> Do you have any pictures of the DS-500 on your bike ?


Nope, don't have a picture. Could take one later. But mine is mounted pretty similar to pethelman's first picture.

It works fine, but personally I'd like it better on the back of my saddlebag (much cleaner look) - like my 400R. For that I'd need to drill a hole in the last cooling fin. And I'd need the hole to be threaded. So need to find me a machine shop, I guess.


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Azra...

Could you post a few pictures of the DS-500 on your bike ?


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Azra said:


> Nope, don't have a picture. Could take one later. But mine is mounted pretty similar to pethelman's first picture.


I was interested in seeing a few pictures of the light on* your *bike. What's the big secret ? I think most people here would appreciate pictures on your bike. After all you started the thread. :thumbsup:


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

This is the side view of the DiNotte 400R and DS-500 at night.

*



*
On top is the 400R. Below is the DS-500.

Both lights are on the brightest setting.


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Azra said:


> This is the side view of the DiNotte 400R and DS-500 at night.
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Hi Azra,

I guess that I didn't make myself clear enough. My fault. I have no doubt the 500 is much brighter than the 400R. That's a given. I was simply interested in seeing a few pictures of the light mounted on your bike in the daytime with the light off. Is your bike in the witness protection program 

Oh well....thank you anyway.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

pethelman said:


> 3. I can see how the triple mode of operation may be better than the five-level (multi-mode) mainly due to the mechanics of dimming the light. In the triple mode (low-med-high), clicking the button just cycles between the three levels. So if you're at high (L5), then it's nice just to do a single click to dim for oncoming motorists, rather than a press-and-hold


I use Threemode on my mtb lights (L1>L4-L5) as I find that L4 and L5 are where I spend most of my time, with L1 for trailside repairs/ not blinding friends etc. I use Duomode on my commuter light (single [email protected], so ~400lms), though I never use the low setting.

Something that might be worth investigating is the UIP mode that Troutie told me about:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=7694808&postcount=58

Sounds like it might be ideal for a road oriented version, although I don't have any experience of it myself.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks Matt, I always kind of skipped over the UIP mode, since it wasn't specifically called out for the "bicycle," but I'll check it out.

Finally got the lens comparison video annotated so you can see what's what...






Definitely watch at 720 full screen if you can.


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## Chromagftw (Feb 12, 2009)

mattthemuppet said:


> ah. Threemode doesn't refer to the levels, but to how you switch between them. You always have to specify L5 (max drive current), then two out of L1 to L4. I have mine set up as L5=1.2A and Threemode (L1>L4-L5), so I cycle between L4 and L5 with a click, then L1 with a press. Trimode in contrast is Lx-Ly-L5, where "-" is a click, so to get from L5 to Ly, you have to go through Lx.


Matt, thanks for sharing this info in the DIY forum. I was trying to make sense of if all on the PDF Azra linked me to earlier.

3 mode is definitely how I'd like to have my lighting options set to - for both steady and flashing. Cheers mate.


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

Azra said:


> Can't say I blame her. If I was married to some %@[email protected]@! that's spending all his paycheck on himself instead of buying me chocolate, ice cream, tiramisu, and bike lights, I too would be f-ing furious.


I like.

Only can a female bicyclist will mix bike lights along with chocolate, ice cream and tiramisu


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

pethelman said:


> Thanks Matt, I always kind of skipped over the UIP mode, since it wasn't specifically called out for the "bicycle," but I'll check it out.


no worries. It's not 100% fit and forget, but it might be of interest for the more savvy user.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

Chromagftw said:


> Matt, thanks for sharing this info in the DIY forum. I was trying to make sense of if all on the PDF Azra linked me to earlier.
> 
> 3 mode is definitely how I'd like to have my lighting options set to - for both steady and flashing. Cheers mate.


you're welcome  It took me a while to get used to programming the Taskled drivers, but once they're set, they're just awesome. The fact that they're what's powering the DS lights is an enormous plus in my mind.


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Azra said:


> This is the side view of the DiNotte 400R and DS-500 at night.
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Azra,

Do you know why one of my posts went missing ? It was in response to your above quote. Thanks for the link, but I was interested in seeing the DS 500 on your bike in the daylight with the light off. What's the big deal ? Why the unwillingness to post a picture of the light on your bike ? That's what we do around here.....show off our bikes with the latest stuff 

Is it just me, or does anyone else sense something isn't quite kosher here


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Quote:


> *Originally Posted by mattthemuppet:*
> ah. Threemode doesn't refer to the levels, but to how you switch between them. You always have to specify L5 (max drive current), then two out of L1 to L4. I have mine set up as L5=1.2A and Threemode (L1>L4-L5), so I cycle between L4 and L5 with a click, then L1 with a press. Trimode in contrast is Lx-Ly-L5, where "-" is a click, so to get from L5 to Ly, you have to go through Lx.


Like Chromagftw I'm trying to get this straight. I think I understand what you're saying about the "threemode". That could work but this "Trimode" sounds more interesting. In trimode , you're saying you can just click to circle through the modes (?)....is that correct? Which Taskled drivers offer this option. My triple has 5 mode and duel mode but I don't think it offered any three mode menu that I'm aware of. Of course this light was built maybe two years ago. Anyway, right now I'm using duel mode and have it set on L5 and L3.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

yup, trimode = each click cycles you between a mode. So L1 click L3 click L5 click L1
threemode = L1 click L3 click L5 click L3 click L5 press L1

all current taskled drivers have these options, but I couldn't honestly tell you when George started implementing it. I know it was before the b2flex came in, as some of the later bflex drivers had it, but other than that I'm clueless. If you can open up the light, take a pic of the driver and email it to George, he'll let you know quickly enough.


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

Out on the trail, Tri-mode did not work for me. Seems like not matter how bright of light you have, you are looking for more, clicking for that next level. Going for high back to low can be scary in certain situations. In three mode you are just cycling between med and high, then when you truly want to drop down to low then just hold the button.



***


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

scar said:


> Out on the trail, Tri-mode did not work for me. Seems like not matter how bright of light you have, you are looking for more, clicking for that next level. Going for high back to low can be scary in certain situations. In three mode you are just cycling between med and high, then when you truly want to drop down to low then just hold the button.
> 
> ***


Excellent point scar...

So does nobody use multi-mode? I guess I've been using it long enough that it just feels natural. When you're "looking for more" that last click just gives you a confirming flash that you're there. On the trail, I'm wondering if there is ever a need to switch to lower power levels very quickly?


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## Chromagftw (Feb 12, 2009)

pethelman said:


> Excellent point scar...
> 
> So does nobody use multi-mode? I guess I've been using it long enough that it just feels natural. When you're "looking for more" that last click just gives you a confirming flash that you're there. On the trail, I'm wondering if there is ever a need to switch to lower power levels very quickly?


The only time I drop down fast it is when I see oncoming cyclists or hikers/runners who might be sharing the same trail, provided I'm not going fast. It's really out of courtesy more than anything else yet i still find myself apologizing as I go by (does anyone else do this?)


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

pethelman said:


> On the trail, I'm wondering if there is ever a need to switch to lower power levels very quickly?


On the trails, most definitely *yes*. Like Chromagftw said, when there's a bike coming the other way, you don't want to blast them with 1300 lumens. It's rude and it's dangerous to boot.

That's why I like the duomode. One click and I'm in L2. Another click and I'm back in L5. Simple.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

I find that the issue isn't that I want to drop to low (which I only do when stopped), more that I often don't have the time to cycle through med to get to high. This was a major issue with a Lightbrain powered DIY halogen I used to use and sometimes I can't even take my hand off the handlebar to switch my helmet light from med > high.

I use med for climbing/ extending battery life and high for everything else, so going through L1 would be a pain. Still, at least with the *flex drivers you have the option to tailor it to what ever you want!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

mattthemuppet said:


> yup, trimode = each click cycles you between a mode. So L1 click L3 click L5 click L1
> threemode = L1 click L3 click L5 click L3 click L5 press L1
> 
> all current taskled drivers have these options, but I couldn't honestly tell you when George started implementing it. I know it was before the b2flex came in, as some of the later bflex drivers had it, but other than that I'm clueless. If you can open up the light, take a pic of the driver and email it to George, he'll let you know quickly enough.


Thanks Matt. Years ago I complained that the Taskled drivers didn't offer a three mode option. I guess George must of heard my whining and did something about it. Odd though that I'm just hearing about it now.

Years ago I used to use a Dinotte 600L which had a circular pattern three mode. I absolutely loved it but like Scar mentioned, sometimes you forgot what level ( mid or high ) you were in so good point made by Scar. At least with the 600L it also included a rear led indicator that blinked at different rates for the different mode levels. That came in real handy at times. I still consider the 600L the best made light I own. Sadly Dinotte chose not to upgrade the 600L with XPG or E. Currently I'm using Kerry's "K-lite", triple XP-G with remote. I really like this light. I just might have to contact him to see if he has a model using the newer drivers. If this "Design Light" can be used in any 3 mode pattern that is a great selling point.


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

Poor pethelman, he's probably going bananas now with everybody specifying different lens combinations and driver modes and all. He must be thinking, "_What's next? Are they gonna make me anodize the light in a custom color? Why'd I start this project in the first place?_" 

BTW, my next DesignShine, I want it in pink with white flowers, please.


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

I rode with both lights in light rain today and again in rain tonight. No problems to report... other than a mofo homicidal truck driver. :incazzato:


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## TrailBound29er (Oct 13, 2010)

Azra said:


> Poor pethelman, he's probably going bananas now with everybody specifying different lens combinations and driver modes and all. He must be thinking, "_What's next? Are they gonna make me anodize the light in a custom color? Why'd I start this project in the first place?_"
> 
> BTW, my next DesignShine, I want it in pink with white flowers, please.


One step ahead of you, Azra.

I'm sure I'm driving him crazy with the lights/lenses. I'm hoping to have the preliminary pictures up over the weekend at this point.

He already said "no" to an acrylic green lense cover. :sad: Since I am a big Green Lantern fan, I wanted to cast a green light as "homage" to the character.

I'm pretty confident once I post up the pictures of the lights and their beam, that he will be able to narrow down some options. I'm also trying to keep him in the loop for a modification that I am planning. It may or may not be of any use to him --- but I've decided to punish him by involving him. :lol:


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

Hey Azra.....

Still waiting for those pics you promised  You seem to have a very aggressive personality and not afraid of trucks flying by at 60 mph, yet you're afraid to post a few pictures of the light on your bike. What's up with that  

btw....do you have any knowledge of why my last few posts went missing ?


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

suba said:


> Hey Azra.....
> 
> Still waiting for those pics you promised  You seem to have a very aggressive personality and not afraid of trucks flying by at 60 mph, yet you're afraid to post a few pictures of the light on your bike. What's up with that
> 
> btw....do you have any knowledge of why my last few posts went missing ?


suba, might be an idea to back off. If Azra wants to post pics, she will do. If she doesn't, she won't. There's no great conspiracy. There are enough pics of these lights on bikes for you to get an idea of what they look like, if they're not good enough it's unlikely Azra's will somehow satisfy your needs.

You're already starting to come across as a bit of a troll/ stalker/ harasser - don't make it even worse.


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

mm...

No, I'm not a troll/ stalker. There's something wrong with all of this. Azra doesn't speak or act like any female I've even known. This is the inter webs, where people can pretend to be anyone they want. I have my doubts Azra is a woman. If she is she's someone I would never want to meet. 

I'm out of here. You guys can fall all over her ( or him ) but not me. 

Everyone have a nice day...


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

who cares if Azra is a chick or not? This thread is about bike lights for Pete's sake and your only contribution has been to demand pictures of her bike, propose that her/his/it's refusal to do so is some kind of conspiracy, call into question her/his/it's sex and then start making aspersions as to her/ his/ it's character.

so sum up for me the value that you've added to this thread?


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## Azra (May 20, 2011)

TrailBound29er said:


> He already said "no" to an acrylic green lense cover. :sad: Since I am a big Green Lantern fan, I wanted to cast a green light as "homage" to the character.


Huh? That's very strange. :skep: I know he has a yellow lens cover of which he's very fond. Maybe he's a Parallax fan... that thing is yellow, isn't it?

Azra "Da Man"


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

The value is be an independent thinker and don't be a sheep. :thumbsup:


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Azra said:


> Huh? That's very strange. :skep: I know he has a yellow lens cover of which he's very fond. Maybe he's a Parallax fan... that thing is yellow, isn't it?
> 
> Azra "Da Man"


Love it... the "Parallax" lens cover.

In any case, yes, I expected a bit of craziness in the early stages, getting feedback from folks, seeing what works best, playing with options, etc. But you're right, it's a logistical nightmare.

Just for clarification, "TrailBound29er" has a special "1-off" version of the headlight were I did not affix the clear polycarb lens cover to the light housing, but instead, formed a thin "gasket-like" layer of silicon on the lens cover piece to allow him to remove the cover, swap out different lenses, then re-install the cover and still be relatively sealed against rain (probably not waterboard-proof like Azra's).

The headlight was designed to allow a 1/8" thick piece of tinted Acrylic (separate from the lens cover piece) to be placed over the lens cover and held down by the center screw. I've been supplying a yellow "Parallax" filter with the headlight, but it's very much a matter of opinion as to whether it's a value added feature for the daytime strobe function. Green... now there's an idea. I'm sure nobody has ever seen a green flashing light coming at them during the day.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

suba said:


> The value is be an independent thinker and don't be a sheep. :thumbsup:


oookay. So, repeatedly harassing someone for pictures of their bike, calling it a conspiracy when they're not provided, then saying that they're an aggressive "man pretending to be a woman on the internet" is independent thinking?

Wow, just wow. Now I realise what I've been doing so wrong my whole life.


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## BritOnTour (Feb 17, 2011)

suba said:


> I'm out of here. You guys can fall all over her ( or him ) but not me.


Do yourself a favour and leave this thread. Unsubscribe, ignore, whatever, but don't bother reading it or posting in it any more. It was funny at first, but now its just sad. Stop harassing Azra, whatever Azra is, should not matter and you are getting annoying.

Nobody here is falling over anyone, we just interested in the product and the comments of people that have had first hand experience with the light.

Your complain about your posts disappearing , but i still see them all, i just wish i could hide them as they serve no purpose in this discussion.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

BritOnTour said:


> .....whatever Azra is, should not matter and you are getting annoying.
> 
> Nobody here is falling over anyone, we just interested in the product and the comments of people that have had first hand experience with the light.


Well said *BritOnTour*... *Suba*: For the record, a smart person will not reveal too much about themselves online. Some people actual "lie" in their profiles because they don't trust others. That's because they know there are some strange people out there. That's also why when people post pictures of lights they generally only show their hands or just the bars of their bike ( although there are exceptions ). Anyway, it's fine to ask for pictures or photos "IF IT SERVES A PURPOSE IN THE THREAD". In this case it is only serving your own misdirected curiosity. Whither someone is "_Insert your personal bias of choice _ " or not has no bearing in the thread or the forum for that matter.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*New DS-500 mount pics*

One of my recent customers gave me permission to use these pictures from his/her  setup on the road bike. Better than my pictures for sure.

Also, here is some feedback that was provided by the same person that was a nice surprise... started to get a little worried when I was first reading it, thinking "Oh great, here we go, people getting stopped because their taillight is too bright..." Thankfully that hasn't happened yet. Just keep it on level 3 or lower at night... pretty please 

"When out on my first ride a couple days ago and didn't even get two blocks from the house and was stopped by a local sheriff deputy. He was so impressed by it that he wanted one for his mtn bike, so I gave him your email."


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## savvas (Mar 21, 2011)

Hi Folks,
Stephen has emailed me to let me know my DS light set is in the mail. Should be here (in Australia) v/soon. There are lots of nice comments at his web site that are very encouraging. I can't wait! 
Savvas.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

pethelman said:


> One of my recent customers gave me permission to use these pictures from his/her  setup on the road bike. Better than my pictures for sure.
> 
> Also, here is some feedback that was provided by the same person that was a nice surprise... started to get a little worried when I was first reading it, thinking "Oh great, here we go, people getting stopped because their taillight is too bright..." Thankfully that hasn't happened yet. Just keep it on level 3 or lower at night... pretty please
> 
> "When out on my first ride a couple days ago and didn't even get two blocks from the house and was stopped by a local sheriff deputy. He was so impressed by it that he wanted one for his mtn bike, so I gave him your email."


Very nice  !


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## 'BentRyder (Sep 17, 2011)

Very impressive. I just ran across this link through a YouTube subscription so it is a belated hats off to the builder.

I've been working on some budget tail lights for the every day cyclist. Some very competing priorities have come up in the development of such a beast. Obviously nothing rivaling this monster, but I have a few observations...

Can a tail light be too bright? I think this has been answered, yes it can! But now you have me re-thinking the nominal levels. On non-bike forums I've even received threats of bodily harm if I were to even come close to the levels this DS-500 is pushing. The very fact that it is capable of pushing out this many lumens is impressive.

I've looked but haven't seen what the beamshot of the tail light would look like on the "white wall". I do not have much experience with the optics you guys are using but I've always found them to be focused at some level although this is changeable with different optics. Do these optics have a specific "hot spot/zone" or is it well diffused?

Runtime is of critical importance to many of us doing long rides or 4+ hours or specifically, when touring 10-12 hours. This is when you start trading off runtime with visibility. Has someone already looked into runtime based on modes and configurations?

Just to give you an idea of where I am coming from is flashlights. I know, basic stupid simple why are we even talking about it... but it is the tech I am getting to here. As-is, XR-E Q5 on a single 2400mah 18650 is 4+ hours runtime on strobe (6-1/2 hours actually). You don't get to program these units and the only real plus to these things is that they can be zoomed (or defocused) for a lot of light transmission. The defocused beam eminates near the lens for minimal losses and a 60 degree cone of relaively even light. I bring this up because for a tail light, or even a be-seen front light, it is very noticable at higher angles. To add, when you are directly aligned with the light, the intensity is only a little more than at 30 degrees offset. It is the aspheric lens that allows for this and really is a simple solution for being-seen (no reflector needed). The last requirement is making the light red, which is easily accomplished with filters, in my case, Rubylith film.

I fully understand that the Q5 on a single cell sucks for consistency in light output throughout the runtime. They rarely provide boost drivers in such cheap lights so the output varies from 240 to 160 lumens. With the intensity of the Q5, it is a usable light and it gains me significant respect day or night on the roads I travel. Trail peds look away or otherwise blind their eyes from the front facing blinkies and I usually reciprocate by turning off the front lights on the trail.

Since these little lights have really been quite reliable (with my own tinkering and hardening), I wanted to take them to the next level. XM-L and a multi-mode driver - 9 unique modes. But I hamstrung the driver to match the Q5 at 700ma. With a red filter, this was a mistake. To equal the Q5, it will still need to run at 1 amp. I ended up limiting this output because of what I felt traffic would tolerate. Even an XM-L at 1.4 amps is a very blinding effect even behind an aspheric lens. Here too, programmability is of high value. 17mm drivers just don't have this luxury. 

Point is, can you see an aspheric zoomable blinkie running an XM-L full bore for say 90 minutes without traffic retaliating? I too have had great success with local law enforcement accepting what I'm currently running. To what level will they tolerate brightness? When will municipalities start regulating max output? We've been reasonably fortunate to not be regulated as yet, but with the new capabilities, I have no doubt that some cager will get upset and they might just have a voice in legislation. Has the cycling community pre-empted any such legislation with lobbying? Are there any useful studies in this regard from universities? I'm thinking that before we have too many DS-500 out there blasting people with 1000 lumens of flashing red lights all over the place (the pricepoint is sure attractive!) that it would be worthwhile polling the public here on MTBR of what, if anything might already be available. This is a serious request, so don't flame me for asking.

Again, great job on the offerings. I wish you all the success and many many sales.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks. It was definitely a long design process to get it to where it is today.

To answer some of your very valid points...
The DS-500 uses the MaxFlex boost controller. This allows the unit to be turned down to about the same intensity as the MagicShine taillight, although only consuming around 1 watt. Run time tables can be found here:

https://sites.google.com/site/designshinelighting/run-time-tables

But just as a point of reference, it will run at the full 10 watts flashing for more than 12 hours on the 5200mAH pack.

As far as beam pattern... it uses two different lenses. One is a pure spot for super long distance throw while the other is elliptical, giving a nice flat and very wide (43+ deg) beam that gives great coverage off-angle.

So yes, it's a monster, but only if you want it to be. It is also infinitely aim-able so there is good flexibility there for managing intensity, especially at night.

I'm in the process of making some comparison videos with the MS taillight as well as some white wall shots showing the beam pattern.


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## 'BentRyder (Sep 17, 2011)

Cool! Those are some very impressive numbers and great options. Looking forward to the images.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

'BentRyder said:


> Cool! Those are some very impressive numbers and great options. Looking forward to the images.


Here you go. All the shots were taken in full manual mode with identical settings. Taking RED beam shots is a very different animal than white! Also note that I made the necessary "shim" adjustments to the MJ818 to get it firing straight back from my "simulated" seat post mount.
The shots are ordered as follows:
1) MJ818 on High
2) DS-500 spot only on level 1
3) DS-500 spot only on level 3
4) DS-500 spot only on level 5
5) DS-500 elliptical only on level 1
6) DS-500 elliptical only on level 3
7) DS-500 elliptical only on level 5
8) DS-500 both beams on level 5
9) Test stand from slightly beyond 90 degrees from the side


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## 'BentRyder (Sep 17, 2011)

I like that elliptical pattern. Have you considered running only one or the other in your mode selection or separate switch? The wide oval would be more efficient than a round diffused beam. Maybe running the elliptical at level 5 is more tolerable for night rides.

Thanks for posting those.


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## savvas (Mar 21, 2011)

Well I now have my DS front and rear lights. They are very small and very nicely made. These are the first battery lights I've had in years (since I bought a set of Night Suns about 15 years ago). So I don't feel able to compare them with anything else on the market. They are very small - about the same dimensions as a PBSF but a little deeper (front to back). They are light weight. They use the generic Cateye mount. They are dead easy to turn off/on and change modes. I bought two of Stephen's rack mounts and they too are very nicely made. It all seems practical, strong and sensible. 

Are the lights too bright? The rear light is much brighter than a MS tail light - I don't know how much brighter - maybe 2 or 3 times. But I think it's tolerable (just!) My PBSF just gets lost in the 'red flood' and glow from the DS. I think the PBSF (and similar rear lights) are all great. But I bought the DS because I have to negotiate a busy set of slip lanes on my way home from work and I want the cars approaching from behind to remember I'm there! I think it'll do the trick.

The front light is another matter. As I've said, I can't compare it to another contemporary front LED light as my experience is limited. It does however light up my whole street from fence to fence for around 200 metres with a white, very even beam. It's like a powerful car head light on high. I've kept it pretty well aimed on the road in front of me as I'm quite concerned about dazzling on coming drivers. I'm not yet confident that I'm fully in control of the upward spill. And did I mention that I've only used it on low? I just wish there was a generic lense available to small-scale light builders like the one that B&M make that gave more control over where the light goes! Stephen did send a yellow supplementary filter which I've been using during the day. It reduces the glare I think and makes for an extremely 'attention-getting' flasher!

So these are undoubtedly great lights. I suspect that they are pretty cheap for what you get but I do think that you need to approach the whole question of need carefully. The tail light is just plain outstanding and I find is a great confidence booster in heavy commuting traffic. The headlight is probably ideal for off-road nightriding, but do you need an aircraft landing light for your commute? I haven't quite figured this out yet but I suspect that once I get the right, traffic tolerable angle worked out it will be great. 

I'd add that I'm really only a commuting bike rider these days. Where these lights - both front and rear - would really shine I think is on the open road for touring cyclists or those doing Audax or early morning solo training rides. These often present very specific hazards as drivers are often dealing with fatigue and difficult lighting conditions. The sheer grunt of these two tiny lights may be ideal in such circumstances.
Sam.


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## bikerayusa (Oct 5, 2010)

Hi Azra~!
please email or send me pm. Thank you.
[email protected]


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## vswope (Feb 6, 2011)

I've been meaning to post for some time. I was likely one of the early designshine customers, having randomly found the youtube video about the time he first decided to offer them. I got both the headlight and taillight. Of course, I was a little reluctant to be one of the "guinea pigs". The business end of the transaction was excellent. All emails were answered and promises kept. 

As to the product itself, the taillight is stunning! I have PBSB and two dinotte 140R's. I ride on rural roads during daylight mostly. Under these conditions the super blinky is totally ineffective, and the Dinotte 140R provides a minimal attention getting light. The DS-500 on level 5 is perfect for this in my opinion. Not too bright. Under cloudy conditions or in town, I do reduce the power. The headlight is a very nice product too, but there are other alternatives available so the "wow" factor is not as great as the taillight. 

A few posters make good points about bicycle lights becoming bright enough to become hazardous. I'll leave the bulk of that discussion for another thread. I treat these Designshines like bright headlights on the car - don't drive around with them on high just because you can. Effective lights are bright enough to be clearly seen without blinding. With a little good sense by the user to fit the conditions, these lights are about the best available. My only two suggestions for improvement are for more blinking rates/patterns to choose from, and a better battery charge indicator. These are minor points, and overall I strongly recommend either the Designshine head or tail light.


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## 'BentRyder (Sep 17, 2011)

It is nice to see testimony to the effect that tail lights in fact can be too bright. 
Definitely a welcome capability for bike tail lights.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

vswope said:


> ...As to the product itself, the taillight is stunning! I have PBSB and two dinotte 140R's. *I ride on rural roads during daylight mostly. Under these conditions the super blinky is totally ineffective, and the Dinotte 140R provides a minimal attention getting light. The DS-500 on level 5 is perfect for this in my opinion. Not too bright.* Under cloudy conditions or in town, I do reduce the power. The headlight is a very nice product too, but there are other alternatives available so the "wow" factor is not as great as the taillight.


I can see one of these lights being real useful in remote rural areas. I do lots of driving in areas like that and you rarely see anyone bicycling on roads in places that are remote. In places like that you would definitely want something to make you stand out at a distance for traffic approaching you from the rear. Wearing high visibility yellow helps a bunch but having a strobing light that can draw a motorist's attention from a quarter mile away ( or more ) ( in broad daylight ) would be a big asset.

Next year I plan on doing some road rides in areas like that and I want to make sure all the truck drivers ( as well as others ) see me well before they even know that I'm a cyclist. I'm thinking about adapting an XM-L torch and using it on SOS mode. _**It won't be red but it will draw attention. _Since a five mode torch has memory I can easily turn it off/on with just a click ( mounted near or under the seat. Once the sun starts setting my twin SF's are well enough to be seen from a distance.

(** I do plan on using some automotive red lens tape to adapt one of my spare torch lenses. It will dampen the output a tad but I bet it will still be bright and in the 500 lumen range. Since a torch can't be adjusted for intensity while in flash modes this set up is planned only for full daylight use in a dangerous or rural ( 40+mph speed limit ) setting. )


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## ellerbro (Mar 8, 2009)

I'm wondering if there's any difficulty operating the DS1300 switch with gloved hands (spring or winter gloves) since the switch looks pretty small?


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

ellerbro said:


> I'm wondering if there's any difficulty operating the DS1300 switch with gloved hands (spring or winter gloves) since the switch looks pretty small?


Yes, it's definitely not AS easy to operate with gloves, but still very doable. I actually recently used it on the helmet on a night hike and was wearing some pretty thick gloves. There's enough of a recess in the case that I could "feel" it through the gloves. It helps that it's a micro-switch, so not much pressure is required to make it "click." This thing runs so long on high (3hr 45min), that you may only need to click it once to turn it on, and then press-and-hold it once to turn it off when you're done.


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## J_Hopper (Mar 5, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> ...I'm thinking about adapting an XM-L torch and using it on SOS mode. _**It won't be red but it will draw attention. _Since a five mode torch has memory I can easily turn it off/on with just a click ( mounted near or under the seat. Once the sun starts setting my twin SF's are well enough to be seen from a distance.
> 
> (** I do plan on using some automotive red lens tape to adapt one of my spare torch lenses. It will dampen the output a tad but I bet it will still be bright and in the 500 lumen range. Since a torch can't be adjusted for intensity while in flash modes this set up is planned only for full daylight use in a dangerous or rural ( 40+mph speed limit ) setting. )


I'm not sure about where you are, but in Washington state, having any color other than a red light to the rear is illegal with certain, specific exceptions (turn signals can be amber, back up lights should be white; also exceptions for police/EMS vehicles). Bicycles can have a flashing rear red tail light. Any other color, including the pink that shows when you put automotive red tape over a very bright white light, is illegal.

Using a non-red rear light may draw the attention of drivers - which is what you want. But, it could also earn you a ticket.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

J_Hopper said:


> I'm not sure about where you are, but in Washington state, having any color other than a red light to the rear is illegal with certain, specific exceptions (turn signals can be amber, back up lights should be white; also exceptions for police/EMS vehicles). Bicycles can have a flashing rear red tail light. Any other color, including the pink that shows when you put automotive red tape over a very bright white light, is illegal.
> 
> Using a non-red rear light may draw the attention of drivers - which is what you want. But, it could also earn you a ticket.


Yes, I've considered all that. Some laws were designed to be challenged and this is one of them. If I ever was to get a citation for such a thing, I would proudly march into court and state the following argument to the judge: Years ago it was illegal to have T.V's in the front seat area of a car. Then there are cyclist that ride at night with no lights or reflectors. Now for some reason all this is completely ignored by all....times change as the technology changes. Bikes use white led flashers all the time, usually in the front...however, many riders ride against traffic and are rarely ( if at all ) stopped by police. School buses in my state are equipped with 360 degree white strobes that are on at all times. This was done for safety reasons. Now if a strobe light is used to protect children on a school bus shouldn't a cyclist be given the same respect seeing they have no metal around them to protect them in an accident. I figure good for the goslings, good for the goose when his neck is sticking out begging to be picked off. :thumbsup:

If a cop wants to pull me over on a rural high speed road and give me a ticket for using a bright flashing white light during daylight for safety, I'll take my chances with what the judge has to say on the issue. Now with all this said, I'll deal with the issue if I start getting fines. Since I won't be doing this on a regular basis anyway I'll take my chances.

Update: I just ordered an *XP-C RED 5-mode drop-in* tonight so all this might be a moot argument if I feel the SOS mode is bright enough to draw attention during the day.


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

*Really like this lights - just a few questions*

Hello,

Just found this thread and so far I really like what I see, but I do have a few questions.

Tail-light: I love the DS500, however I am wondering if the flashing mode can be programmed more than just brightness levels?

Two things.

1. Flashing lights only at night can be difficult to judge distance, which is why I ride with a full on light and a flasher. However, if this light could be programmed to be a combo say both lights flash from half-on to fully-on or have one light flash while the other is fully on - then you have the best of both worlds in one light.

2. Random flash interval. It does not have to be much, just something that is inconsistent. From a physiological perspective a person cannot help but to see that light, even from the corner of their eye, they will be drawn to it. Regular blinking patterns, people can learn to ignore, but there is something about a slightly irregular pattern that makes it nearly impossible for people to ignore.

I have hard a lot of talk board and all the programming modes, but I don't think it has either of these. I know the vis-180 has the half-on flash mode and I have seen other taillights that have a random pattern, so I know it is possible, just maybe not on this light. However, if they are possible, it would be great.

Headlight: Is this thing programmable? I would like to use it for road-primarily, but I would like to use it off-road too. For road-riding being able to set it up like the exposure Strada would be optimal. Have your regular riding mode and a dimmed mode for traffic and a thumb switch like the strada to quickly switch between the two. However, I would personally like to go one step beyond the Strada. I would like to be able to choose my full power mode 3,4,5 and have the switch always dim the light to 2,3. This way in heavy commute traffic I can ride at a 3 without offending anyone, then switch it to 5 for my decent down Claremont or Southpark where I have hit 50+ at night. The switch would give me a quick way to turn down from high power mode with one click while keeping my attention fully on the road.

Beam Patterns: I have seen several forum posts elsewhere where people like the flood on their helmet and spot on the bars. I can't stand that. On my bars I want a good flood light and a consistent light intensity from the top of the spot down to my front tire, even further if possible. If I see a rock or some other thing in the road, I don't want to lose it. I also like the beam to have enough flood to be able to see far enough off to the sides to be able to pick-up a dog or a cat or a little kid running into my path. Those of you that ride at night know what I am talking about, the farther out to the side you can see some animal coming out from under a car or running across a lawn, the better off you will be. Animals do funny things in lights and if they get right in front of you, they will stop. So my question is, can I get my wish and be able to have a courtesy switch that would take my 5,4,3 level beam down to a 3 or a 2?

On my helmet I want a spot and very little flood. Flood on the helmet is fine for off-road, but not on-road. Too much flood means when I turn my head, I can hit drivers with a beam I don't want too. It is too noisy. With a spot, I can hit the car's windshield that is turning in to me and no one else. I live very close to Oakland, and though I hate to say it, you can really tell the difference in driver's awareness in certain areas. The helmet light has saved my life a couple of times and stopped a car from left turning right into me. So for me, I like to look around when I with a good spot, I only light up what I am looking at. However, I am curious, I see people wanting the flood on their helmet and spot in front, why is that?

So for these lights, I see that pethelman will configure them to your liking which I really LIKE. I just hope that some of my extra wishes that I see in other lights can be put into this light because I would by them today if they could be so configured. And they would really make these lights the most flexible on the market.

- Roger


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

A lot of good feedback here Roger, thanks...

To address some of your questions:
Concerning nightime use of the taillight. Yes, steady mode is best, turned down to at least level 3 or lower. Until I get George to give up his firmware... I'll have to stick with the flashing function as is. Seriously though, for daytime operation (which is where this light earns its keep) the current flash pattern is very good. It can easily force someone to look up from their cell phone or whatever else they may be doing from a LONG way off. At night, you have to really be careful to keep it at level 3 or lower, preferably in solid mode for good depth perception. Combine it with a low power flasher and you have the near perfect solution.

Being a roadie myself for most of the year, I really tried to make this light satisfy the needs of the serious night road cyclist (I ride almost exclusively at night now). With some valuable feedback from some of the users here, I tweaked the lens combination to yield a good combination of throw and width. You won't be able to "out-ride" the the light, even on high speed descents, yet you'll still have full illumination of both lanes of a two lane road all the way to your front wheel with a very even distribution of light. Because of the clear lens cover, you actually get light all around and even a little behind your front wheel, so there really aren't any "blind" spots.

As an unexpected bonus (and I had no idea how nice this was till I tried it) you have about +/- 10 degrees of left/right aimability. So, if you don't have a helmet light, and you're coming up to a high-speed 90 degree turn, you can just nudge the light hard over to the stop in the direction you're turning well before you get there (I'm talking 150 ft before you get there), and have full illumination of the turn. The beam is wide enough that you still have plenty of straight forward illumination, but you now have the center of the beam right at the apex of the turn. The mount essentially has some built in friction that allows you to position it left or right on-the-fly without effecting the elevation adjustment. So after you make the turn, just nudge it back to straight. Easily accomplished with just your thumb while riding on the bars.

Headlight operation modes. Thanks to Azra, I came to see the "light" so to speak on the more simple mode of operation for road use. It's pretty much as you're hoping it would be. You have three settings, LOW/MED/HIGH. HIGH is always the maximum drive, but MED and LOW can be programmed to correspond to level 1,2,3,or 4. What works really well is the THREEmode operation, where a single click takes you from LOW to MED. Then, once you're at MED, subsequent clicking toggles back and forth between HIGH and MED. A slightly longer press-and-hold takes you back to LOW. So it really is just like being in your car. If you like having 1300 lumens on the road, then by all means use it, but if a car approaches, you just do a quick single click and you're down to MED, which is around 640 lumens (if you use level 3 for medium). In practice I've found L3 to be suitable for road use without causing any blinding problem for oncoming cars (haven't gotten bright-lighted yet). There are a couple of other modes at the user's disposal (one even more simple LOW/HIGH only, another tri-mode where you cycle through all three levels, and one mode where you have access to every power level). The power adjustment modes work the same whether you're flashing or not.

I have a couple of nice upgrades to the next round of lights, one of which is 150 more lumens on the XP-E triple, which is the "thrower" half of the light. Also, the lens cover will be user-removable and you'll be able to play around with different lenses for different applications. Although, I haven't tried it yet, a dual XP-E triple with spot lenses would make a heck of a spotlight for helmet use if someone was so inclined. Even with the spot beam, you'll still get the same "spill" light out the sides of the lens cover, which would be doubly nice on the helmet at night.

I'm shooting for availability of the next round of lights in Mid-December time frame.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

pethelman said:


> ...I have a couple of nice upgrades to the next round of lights, one of which is 150 more lumens on the XP-E triple, which is the "thrower" half of the light. Also, the lens cover will be user-removable and you'll be able to play around with different lenses for different applications. Although, I haven't tried it yet, a dual XP-E triple with spot lenses would make a heck of a spotlight for helmet use if someone was so inclined. Even with the spot beam, you'll still get the same "spill" light out the sides of the lens cover, which would be doubly nice on the helmet at night.
> 
> I'm shooting for availability of the next round of lights in Mid-December time frame.


Oh how I do love to hear you go on about your lights. You certainly do know a thing or two about bike lights. You also seem to know what we folks in Forumville dream about when we think about "The perfect light system". :thumbsup:

I'm glad to hear about your plan for user replaceable lenses. Need I even say, more throw is always a welcome commodity. Although you didn't mention it, I hope somewhere along the line that you figure a way to offer a remote option. I just love the remote on my triple XPG, K-Lite. The button assembly is very small and nothing like the bulky plastic stuff you see on the MS lights. I don't know where Kerry gets his remotes but they are compact and really nice. It really is a big PLUS to be able to keep both hands on the bars when making a mode switch, especially at higher speeds. To tell the truth I'm surprised that you haven't made one for yourself yet. Once you go remote it is so hard to go back to " one-hand-steering-mode-changes".... :yesnod:


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> Oh how I do love to hear you go on about your lights. You certainly do know a thing or two about bike lights. You also seem to know what we folks in Forumville dream about when we think about "The perfect light system". :thumbsup:
> 
> I'm glad to hear about your plan for user replaceable lenses. Need I even say, more throw is always a welcome commodity. Although you didn't mention it, I hope somewhere along the line that you figure a way to offer a remote option. I just love the remote on my triple XPG, K-Lite. The button assembly is very small and nothing like the bulky plastic stuff you see on the MS lights. I don't know where Kerry gets his remotes but they are compact and really nice. It really is a big PLUS to be able to keep both hands on the bars when making a mode switch, especially at higher speeds. To tell the truth I'm surprised that you haven't made one for yourself yet. Once you go remote it is so hard to go back to " one-hand-steering-mode-changes".... :yesnod:


Hey Cat,
Yes, actually I have done a remote, bar-mounted solution for a recumbent rider with under-seat stearing. It's a bit more custom work, but totally doable. The switch on the case remains and operates in parallel with the remote switch. I fabricate a small 1/8th inch thick aluminum plate which holds the micro-switch and can be innocuously zip-tied to your handlebars to be in a convenient under-thumb location. The length of the remote wire would be customized for the particular application... like in the recumbent case, it was 84 inches long. For most of my night road riding, I find that the beam and output on level three is very adequate and not too bright for on-coming cars, so I'm rarely touching the switch. If you were using a light that had 3hr 45 min run time on high and 9+ hours on level 3 (medium), I'm just curious what scenarios you're finding that would require mode change while riding, except possibly to dim for approaching riders? Thanks for your thoughts!


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

I wouldn't ever need a remote for the road riding I do (commuting really) as the single [email protected] is enough for me. However, for off-road riding it's amazing to have a remote for the bar light - med for climbs, high for the flats/DH - and not having to take your hand off the bar to change levels is a huge boon. For the riding around here, taking your hand off the bar at the wrong moment will have you in the rocks!


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

hello mattthemuppet and pethelman,

I tend to use my rides as a workout instead of commuting. My issue is when I am coming down a large hill, large enough that I have to keep both hands on the breaks (for those of you who know the East Bay near SF that's Moser, Claremount, Marin, Centennial, South Park, etc) it is difficult at best to reach up and dim the lights if a car suddenly appears coming up hill or out of driveway or side street. At least with a helmet light, you can angle it away, but a bar light on max for those 30+ mile an hour downhills, not so easy to adjust a light under full brakes or in tight turns.

Why a remote switch? For all those times when removing either hand from the bars is not an option.

- Roger


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

pethelman said:


> To address some of your questions:
> Until I get George to give up his firmware... I'll have to stick with the flashing function as is.


George who? Let me call him 



pethelman said:


> Seriously though, for daytime operation (which is where this light earns its keep) the current flash pattern is very good. It can easily force someone to look up from their cell phone or whatever else they may be doing from a LONG way off. At night, you have to really be careful to keep it at level 3 or lower, preferably in solid mode for good depth perception. Combine it with a low power flasher and you have the near perfect solution.


Yep, I need to combine it with another light to get a near perfect solution. But I can dream for a perfect solution where a light can do both, can't I. I agree, daylight will be fine and I will keep it in steady mode for night-time. Just need a good flasher. Maybe that Exposure light will work for that.



pethelman said:


> Headlight operation modes. Thanks to Azra, I came to see the "light" so to speak on the more simple mode of operation for road use. It's pretty much as you're hoping it would be. You have three settings, LOW/MED/HIGH. HIGH is always the maximum drive, but MED and LOW can be programmed to correspond to level 1,2,3,or 4. What works really well is the THREEmode operation, where a single click takes you from LOW to MED. Then, once you're at MED, subsequent clicking toggles back and forth between HIGH and MED. A slightly longer press-and-hold takes you back to LOW. So it really is just like being in your car. If you like having 1300 lumens on the road, then by all means use it, but if a car approaches, you just do a quick single click and you're down to MED, which is around 640 lumens (if you use level 3 for medium). In practice I've found L3 to be suitable for road use without causing any blinding problem for oncoming cars (haven't gotten bright-lighted yet). There are a couple of other modes at the user's disposal (one even more simple LOW/HIGH only, another tri-mode where you cycle through all three levels, and one mode where you have access to every power level). The power adjustment modes work the same whether you're flashing or not.


Seems like that will work for me. Just thinking it may be nice to go from a steady medium to a high flash mode for emergencies, especially when I am traveling anywhere near the Oakland border. But then again, I can yell very loud when needed and yelling STOP at someone usually does the trick too.



pethelman said:


> I have a couple of nice upgrades to the next round of lights, one of which is 150 more lumens on the XP-E triple, which is the "thrower" half of the light. Also, the lens cover will be user-removable and you'll be able to play around with different lenses for different applications. Although, I haven't tried it yet, a dual XP-E triple with spot lenses would make a heck of a spotlight for helmet use if someone was so inclined. Even with the spot beam, you'll still get the same "spill" light out the sides of the lens cover, which would be doubly nice on the helmet at night.
> 
> I'm shooting for availability of the next round of lights in Mid-December time frame.


Keep me on that list. I may need to order a tail-light before that time, but I am certainly interested in your headlight units too. I would like to see more helmet mounted shots before deciding to go that route. I think it would be cool if you made a single light to be use alongside the dual version for those people wanting a more specialized use.

- Roger


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

Roger Huston said:


> hello mattthemuppet and pethelman,
> 
> I tend to use my rides as a workout instead of commuting. My issue is when I am coming down a large hill, large enough that I have to keep both hands on the breaks (for those of you who know the East Bay near SF that's Moser, Claremount, Marin, Centennial, South Park, etc) it is difficult at best to reach up and dim the lights if a car suddenly appears coming up hill or out of driveway or side street. At least with a helmet light, you can angle it away, but a bar light on max for those 30+ mile an hour downhills, not so easy to adjust a light under full brakes or in tight turns.
> 
> ...


yeah, I can see that  My commute is on a flat cycle path so it's not as challenging, but the mtbing I do is analogous to the situation you describe - when you just can't take your hand off the handlebar.


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## BritOnTour (Feb 17, 2011)

pethelman said:


> I have a couple of nice upgrades to the next round of lights, one of which is 150 more lumens on the XP-E triple, which is the "thrower" half of the light. Also, the lens cover will be user-removable and you'll be able to play around with different lenses for different applications. Although, I haven't tried it yet, a dual XP-E triple with spot lenses would make a heck of a spotlight for helmet use if someone was so inclined. Even with the spot beam, you'll still get the same "spill" light out the sides of the lens cover, which would be doubly nice on the helmet at night.
> 
> I'm shooting for availability of the next round of lights in Mid-December time frame.


I am so tempted to get one of these lights, but with the upgrades you mention, Now I want to wait a little longer.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

BritOnTour said:


> I am so tempted to get one of these lights, but with the upgrades you mention, Now I want to wait a little longer.


Hey Brit...
It's an easy choice now. All of the first run lights have been sold. Francois has the last set for the shootout, and when he's done with those, I think I may have to keep them myself just for posterity (and to do some comparison shots with the new headlight).

Another upgrade, although not really major, is that the new lights will be a few grams lighter. Turns out after really putting them through the temperature evaluation, that I had a little wiggle room to trim some mass and still maintain a conservative thermal design.

One of the big new things that (as an engineer) I'm really excited about is the new battery pack PCB. This one will incorporate on-board balance taps (which you can see over on the right hand side of the PCB)! I'm not sure how many have this, but it's a nice safety feature and helps prolong the life of the pack. In the case of the DS packs, I essentially have 3 "banks" of cells in series and this PCB will keep each "bank" at exactly the same voltage. Costs just a tad more, but totally worth it in my opinion. No scrimping on the cells here either... only the good stuff, Samsung.

You can keep up with the new build over at the blog on the new website:
Design Shine Lighting Forums - Recent Blogs Posts - Blogs


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

So this includes the tail-light too? We should hold-off on everything until mid-December?

- Roger

P.S. I saw some pictures on your site that looked like custom mount work. Where a customer sent you a mount and you made it work with your light. I wonder if you have mounted your light to a Night Rider mount. I really like my double lights to be mounted center line, over the stem. 

Unfortunately my new bike has Shimano instead of Campy, older where the brake lines come out of the breaks and interfere with the light. Took them forever to follow Campy and they did it the model year after I got my bike. But still, got the bike for like 50% off as it was last years model.

Still this means that I will have wire shadows in my lights and anything I can do to minimize it, even a little will help.

- Roger


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Roger Huston said:


> So this includes the tail-light too? We should hold-off on everything until mid-December?
> 
> - Roger
> 
> ...


You've got a lot of options with this mount. I normally use an extender bar for the headlight that's about 1/2" shorter than the taillight bar, but if you use the taillight bar on the headlight, you might be able to get past some of the wires? You may not have seen some of the images here:
https://sites.google.com/site/designshinelighting/build-log

In particular, look at the entries for June 23 and May 19. You can mount low, in-line with the bars, using the extender. Or you can mount high with or without the extender bar. When you see the image looking down on the light from above, there are two angles of adjustability: the mount itself, and the light body on the bar. If you want to get the light out in front of the stem, you can angle the mount bar to the right, then turn the angle the light body to the left to get it back pointing straight again. But to answer your other question, yes, I can definitely entertain custom mounting options. The bottom of the light has a nice deep threaded hole (6/32 thread) and a flat surface, so it's fairly adaptable.

The other good thing about this light with respect to your problem is that because there are 6 different point sources of light, even if you are behind one of the cables, there is NO hard shadow. The main distraction would be the reflected light off the cable coming back at you.

I'm really scrambling trying to have the new batch of lights ready before Christmas
So far "Murphy" has stayed away, but I've been in engineering long enough to know that he's never TOO far away:madman:


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*Helmet mount specs*

Just wanted to put out a feeler to the forum on the idea of a helmet-specific DS-1300.

While I'm building lights, I could easily put together a double-triple XP-E with the new higher-output R4 bin (aka "throw monster"). This wouldn't be just an ultra narrow penetrating beam, but a very usable spot light with complete trail coverage, easily out to 200ft. Light head with mount would be sub 130 gram range. Color temp in the neutral range. 4 hour runtime on high. On-the-fly vertical adjustment. Visual indication of the battery status would be provided by the front LEDs, so you wouldn't have to take off the helmet to know where you stood in the battery life cycle.

I'm just wondering if there is a pent-up need for something like this? Or if that much power on the lid is just overkill?

Would look pretty much like the picture here, although this shows the smaller battery with a 2hr runtime on high.


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

Hello,

I might be interested in such a light. Is it too much power? Depends on the handlebar light. In my opinion they should be evenly matched so your eyes don't have to adjust to the darkness. For example, if the light is too weak, it gets lost in the headlight and when you look to the side, the low light conditions means your eyes have to adjust to match the light and on the trail that time can be dangerous. Same is true for a too strong light, you move your head to the side, now you have the weak light in your direction of travel and in your peripheral vision. Good luck in that situation.

For me, I have HID lights now, I run in a stacked configuration. I turn my handlebar lights down so the whole spot is visible on the road and trail in order to get the most light on the road in front of me. It also helps keep it out of driver's eyes. Then for my head mounted light, I put the bottom of the spot on that light on the top of the spot on my handlebar light (natural position). This doubles the sweet spot for me and give me max distance.

With your LED lights I am not sure how this will change. I like your medium frosted DS-1300 with almost no center spot effect. 

As for the headlight, I think you could make a new light, half the size of the DS-1300 with only 1 lens and have a great light. The picture looks a bit bulky to me, especially with the battery mounted on the helmet, I prefer a longer cord and mounted in by back-pack.

So, yes, I am interested, but I would prefer a smaller helmet light and if the batter was on the helmet, perhaps something along the lines of the Exposure Diablo.

- Roger


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

Hello,

Would it be possible for you to put one together and show some beam pics and videos like you do for your other stuff? I would be curious to see how much spot this would be. Personally, I would like you to show it with the DS-1300 on the bars, both on at the same time and move the head mounted light around so I could see how much extra light it produced and how well it matched the DS-1300. I would also like to see them turned on at each of the 5 light levels, both on the same matched setting. For example, both on 3 for road riding, what would that look like?

Thank you and I am looking forward to your new lights!

- Roger


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback Roger. I had thought about a single-triple, but for the approach that I wanted to take with the transparent lens retainer, it just wasn't very feasible. Several other considerations that factored in were that the single-triple has to be driven VERY hard to produce enough light for my taste. I preferred the more conservative approach by using more LEDs and less drive current. And in that respect, I've crammed about as many lumens as you can into the smallest volume possible while still retaining enough mass to run at full power for several minutes with no air flow. I've found that I can run the light on full power on the helmet with barely more than a walking pace without heat buildup becoming a problem.

Of course, the major benefit of using two separate banks of LEDs is the ability to use different optics on both and make a good single bar-light solution.

I'll plan on building at least 1 double-triple XPE and seeing how well it plays with the wider beam version on the bars.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*p-man,* I love the idea of a Double/triple XP-E R4 narrow! I don't think I would use something like that on the helmet though...a little too much weight for my taste. If I did buy one I would likely want a triple XP-G R-5 combo with a XP-E R4 with an array of optics so I could figure which set-up I like the best and then mount that sucker on a center bar mount.

Anyway, keep up the good work. These lights of yours cause me to bring out the drool bucket.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

some feedback from my point of view, as a mtber only:

1) I'd try and limit yourself to a 2 cell pack. My helmet light has a 3 cell pack and it's right at the limit of comfort for me, especially on rocky trails. I've ridden a few times with my commuter light (single LED) and its 2 cell pack on my helmet and the difference is noticeable. I'm pretty tolerant of weight on my helmet, so if I'm not 100% happy with a 3 cell, I'd guess that alot more people would be unhappy with it. One of the guys I ride with won't even strap his Minewt battery on his helmet, although that does weigh closer to a 3 cell than a 2 cell (due to the driver, hard plastic shell etc)

2) These XP-E R4s aren't HEWs are they? I guessing not (those are R5s), but worth avoiding if they are, for a thrower at least.

3) I'd still recommend going for a single LED/triple board for a helmet light. Gonzo output is less necessary IMO and being unable to mix'n'match optics will be more than outweighed by the reduction in weight of the light head. I do like my twin LED helmet light (built in the XP-G days) but if I were doing it again I'd think long and hard about doing a single instead. With those R4s it'll still be ~900+lm theoretical too.

4) I know that you have a lot of experience using triples and are probably very comfortable with them, but the XM-L is more efficient and there is a far wider range of optics/ reflectors to tailor the beam to an individuals preference. Cheaper too.

5) I would ditch that lens cover with the clear sides - that'd bug the hell out of me if someone on a ride had a light like that, given that it would be impossible to avoid blinding someone with it at a stop on the trail. It's hard enough to avoid shining lights in peoples eyes when the light goes straight out of the front 

6) is there a way to get the light to sit lower on the helmet? That would both avoid tree branch clipping problems and the high CoG that makes helmet lights more noticeable.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Hey Matt,
Thanks as always for your insight!

Let me see if I can address some of your comments here.

>>I'd try and limit yourself to a 2 cell pack.

I agree, the 3-cell is just OK, but probably too much for some if mounted on the helmet. The light connects directly to and will work fine with the very minimalistic Magicshine 2-cell pack (picture attached), but in that case, you'd want to stay on level 4 or below, treating level 5 as a short-use "boost" mode.


>> These XP-E R4s aren't HEWs are they? I guessing not (those are R5s), but worth avoiding if they are, for a thrower at least.

I am evaluating the XP-E High Efficiency White (HEW) in combination with the XP-G to see what kind of blended beam I can achieve. Since the die size hasn't increased for the XP-E HEW, the spot optics work almost as well as with the non-HEW versions. The main difference being the lack of the dark band around the primary spot and just every so slightly less throw. However, I'm betting that the increased output will make up for the difference in throw compared to the old XP-E Q4 bin that I was using... which, I thought, still had very nice throw.

>>I'd still recommend going for a single LED/triple board for a helmet light.

I'm with you on that one. Coming mainly from the road-bike world, the idea of this light was primarily envisioned for bar-mounted road use, but turns out to be really good bar-light on the trail as well. However, it's still quite usable on the helmet in a lot of situations. Recumbent road riding is a good option, since often the bar mount is impractical, and in that riding position, you can position the light on top of the helmet for good balance. In those situations where you don't want to have anything sticking up above the top of the helmet to avoid catching branches, the light has to be moved way to the front of the helmet. This of course makes low weight an even bigger priority, and in that respect, the NiteFlux guys have everybody beat. Not sure I want to try and compete with that... or even should, since there are so many "flashlight" helmet lights out there.

>>... XM-L is more efficient and there is a far wider range of optics/ reflectors to tailor the beam to an individuals preference. Cheaper too.

Believe it or not, the LED's themselves are a very small portion of the total cost of the light. It really is amazing how much it takes to produce a good housing, and then it happens again in the labor and in the assembly/testing process. So the cost for me was totally not an issue. The efficiency boost is almost not a factor as well, since to get the same usable output from 2 XM-L as compared to 6 XP-E/G, the XM-L have to be driven very hard, compared to the 6-LED scenario, where I can drive them in the peak of the efficiency curve. In the end, the form-factor being very compact and low-profile was most important to me.

>>I would ditch that lens cover with the clear sides - that'd bug the hell out of me if someone on a ride had a light like that, given that it would be impossible to avoid blinding someone with it at a stop on the trail. 

I definitely see your point. However the light coming out the side of the lens cover is nowhere near the focused blinding level. It's just a nice diffuse point source of light that can be seen from any direction. You can look directly at it from the side even in the dark without any problem. However, I do have some very thin metalized reflective material with adhesive backing that I cut to size to go over the sides for anyone that wants to block that portion of the light. From every other perspective, however, the clear lens cover is what makes this light unique. On the trail, with the light mounted on the bar, the diffuse light coming out the bottom and sides of the cover, make a very nice ambient environment. You can completely see everything on the ground directly around and even underneath the bike. On the road, the clear cover makes very usable side lighting at night, which is particularly good on the taillight.

>>is there a way to get the light to sit lower on the helmet? That would both avoid tree branch clipping problems and the high CoG that makes helmet lights more noticeable.

I'm using the standard Cateye helmet mounting system, which is quite flexible. You can move it as far forward on the helmet as your vents will allow, to get it "lower." However, if I were using it off-road and knew that low-hanging branches weren't going to be an issue, I'd actually move it closer to the top of the helmet. The rotational inertia (yes I am a geek) is much higher with it on the front, plus if your leaning over slightly in your normal riding position, the out-front position puts more strain on the neck. With it on the top of the helmet, and battery in the jersey pocket, I barely notice it. The Cateye mount is nice because it has small de-tents in the aiming adjustment where you can reach up and click it up or down a notch or two for trimming the aim. When you're stopped and talking to buddies on the trail, you can just ratchet the light nearly straight up and out of everyone's eyes.

Keep those comments coming! Love hearing others opinions.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

you're welcome, glad I can offer some insight 

Of'roadbent built a simple sled light with one of Quazzles L333 XP-E HEW boards and he thought it sucked. Compared to a standard XP-E Q4(5?) L333 and XM-L+Regina it neither threw as far as the XP-E nor was as bright as the XM-L (which I think even out threw it). There are some good beamshots on the DIY forum beamshot thread which illustrate it better. He told me that if it was his light (he built it for a friend) he would have swapped it out for either of the other 2 options. Not my own experience, obviously, but he's built enough different lights to know what he's talking about.

I do believe you about the relative cost of the LEDs vs. everything else. The parts are the easy bit, it's the housing that's the hardest part. I can see where you're coming from re. the efficiency argument, but I'd counter that, for a light weight helmet light, you wouldn't be running the XM-Ls (or the XP-Es) at full bore anyway - I run the 2 XM-Ls in my helmet light at 1.5A as that's the most the b2flex will spit out, but around 1.5-2A would be the sweet spot for 2 XM-L. 2 XM-L @1.5A is still A LOT of light and the throw is as much as I could ever want (not sure about 60mph descents on the road, as I don't do that). Plus the added optics options would make a big difference. Something to think about anyway, perhaps as a test rig in the future..

Neat to see the Cateye helmet mount in use. I'm just about to get my hands on my first one (not for lack of trying) so I'm quite excited to try it out. Sadly it wont work for my helmet light as I built it before I knew about the Cateye spacers, but I can use it for my commuter light. I agree that having the light right on top of the helmet and the battery in the jersey pocket (if your jersey has pockets..) is the best option if there aren't branches around, but I find that with the light head on the front (92g) and battery on the back vents (~150g?) it does balance out pretty well, although a 2S (~100g) pack would be sweeter. More polar moment of inertia for sure, but the helmet at least stays put!


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks VERY much for the tip on the HEW. I've looked at some of the beam shots, and it's hard to make a definitive call. I'll definitely drop back to the R3 or below if I don't like the throw that it generates.

I think you'll like the Cateye mount a lot. Very minimal weight and low profile. I especially like that you can torque down on the bolt that it rotates about and change the friction level. This way you can get even finer aiming ability, if you find yourself needing to aim between two of the detents. That would be my only gripe that the spacing between each detent could be a little finer.


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

Hello,

Just checked out your new build blog. Cool stuff. BTW, it would be handy if you could post the weights of your products on your website in the list. I think people may think that the unit is much heavier than the 130g you have listed above. I know I did.

As for helmet lights, I would think your main competition in the States would be with the new Dinotte XML-3 as this light is a little smaller and at the same price point as the DS-1300 (Sub $300), and close in output. The review just posted on it yesterday or today. It looks much smaller than the DS-1300 unit, but since the weight is 102g, so maybe not. For me, I will probably get the DS-1300 and DS-500 combo and once I try them out, will decide what I want on my head. I have an old HID light that works fine for now for that and I can put the battery in my back pocket.

As soon as you get closer to shipping, let me know so I can place my order.

- Roger


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Roger Huston said:


> Hello,
> 
> Just checked out your new build blog. Cool stuff. BTW, it would be handy if you could post the weights of your products on your website in the list. I think people may think that the unit is much heavier than the 130g you have listed above. I know I did.
> 
> ...


The XML-3 is definitely another smart light...very similar to the DS-1300 in performance.
The next DS-1300 will likely end up being sub 120 gram for the light body and clamp mount. The extension bar, which you would probably want to use for bar-mounting adds a few grams, but while mounting on the bar, it probably doesn't matter.

Here's just some of my random observations from comparing the two the backyard shots (attached side by side here just for fun, DS on left, XML3 on right)
Only two really noticeable differences stick out to me.

DS - slightly more neutral (warm) color index
XML3 - tends toward the cool side (nothing really wrong with that, just different)

DS - slightly tighter spot projection and nearly identical near-field width
XML3 - because of the faceted lens, it produces a very wide slightly more diffuse pattern.

You can definitely see more "UP" light toward the top of the tree with the XML3.
With the DS being a little tighter, there might be a slight advantage for road use.

From the trail shots, the main difference is the color temperature. Browns will be more brown with the warmer light. And if you use your imagination, you might think that you have more discrimination of detail among the leaves with the warmer light, but this is an extremely subjective thing.

I'm not sure I could make a decision just on the beamshots. What we're seeing with the mix of backyard and trail beamshots is that the content of the shot (color of background, terrain, depth, nearfield objects, etc.) can have a real impact on how the reflected light is viewed by the camera. In the backyard shots the DS looks "brighter" (I really don't like to use that word), while on the trail the XML3 looks "brighter." It really is very hard to judge between two very similar lights without having them both in your hand for real world comparison, and even then you can drive yourself crazy looking critically at aspects of the light that really may not matter when you're actually riding. When I'm out testing a new light, I really do have to tell myself to "stop looking at the light" and just ride. When you finally get to this point, and like Francois says, the light becomes "transparent" then you know you've got a good usable light, and there are plenty in the shootout that can do it.

It's such a hard decision in some cases for a semi-major investment, which is why I consider all my lights to just be a "demo" until you really decide you want to keep it.

OH, and just as an aside, you can run the DS-500 with any of the Dinotte batteries. I just need to provide a short "adapter" cable.

DS-1300 on left, Dinotte XML3 on right.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

pethelman said:


> Thanks VERY much for the tip on the HEW. I've looked at some of the beam shots, and it's hard to make a definitive call. I'll definitely drop back to the R3 or below if I don't like the throw that it generates.
> 
> I think you'll like the Cateye mount a lot. Very minimal weight and low profile. I especially like that you can torque down on the bolt that it rotates about and change the friction level. This way you can get even finer aiming ability, if you find yourself needing to aim between two of the detents. That would be my only gripe that the spacing between each detent could be a little finer.


no worries. I remember Quazzle hyping the HEWs up amid much skepticism on the DIY forum and no favourable feedback from users after they were released. I think it's also a consequence of the lack of HEW specific optics (something about weird emission angles and phosphor on the HEW dies), but I'm not going to grind my 20mm triple optics axe 

tried the mount out last night and was very impressed. Even with the spacer on the wrong way round on all my lights (doh!) I still managed to get a good angle with it right at the front of my helmet (still snagged it though). Unfortunately the beam got completely washed out by my bar light (2 XM-L at even 2A will do that to 1 XM-L at 1.5A) but I think I'll keep my commuter light on there permanently. Also, out of curiosity I weighed my commuter light:
- light head 68g
- helmet mount 24g (23.561g to be precise )
- 2S battery 148g

I was surprised that the battery weighed that much, guess the Digikey 18650 holder didn't help. Either way, felt very balanced and didn't notice the weight last night or this morning on the ride into work


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

Stephen,

Thank you for the pictures, I did check them out. I will definitely get your light package for the bars and back and once I have it in hand, check it out for use on the helmet. I believe strongly in matching lights as best I can, both in strength and color if possible. For the better part of a decade I rode with Nightrider HID lights on both head and bars and I know the importance of keeping light sources of equal strength so your eyes don't have to adjust to varying light levels.

For me, I am a bit sensitive to the weight on my head and the lighter the better. Until I get to see the thing in my hand and try it out, I am just guessing. But, what I do like about you, more than any other manufacturer is that you stand behind your lights and are willing to help us make it right. I like your "demo" philosophy. I will order, just wish the new lights were ready now and I really hope they are ready before Christmas instead of after.

- Roger


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Roger, according to the latest on the Designshine build blog, he said its looking like it's going to be "a new design for a new year..."


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> Roger, according to the latest on the Designshine build blog, he said its looking like it's going to be "a new design for a new year..."


Yes, I'm pretty bummed about it myself. But I think the time that I take now in finding a good CNC partner will ultimate be well spent, as I'm getting bids from several shops and even looking at a custom extrusion option for the lids. I'm hoping that I can do enough quantity to at least get down to the price-per-unit machining cost of my local guy who's a one man show and semi-retired and owns his own shop (i.e. no overhead). His work is second to none, but to get into increased volume for him might be tough.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*New Headlight Beam Shots*

OK, just finished up a test rig to try out one potential new XP-E variation. I also put together the "throw monster" (double triple XP-E) just for fun. Let me know what you think about the slightly cooler color temp.

The orange cones are +30, +60, +90, +120, and soccer ball at +150 ft
Fence in the far background at 300 ft.

Shot setup: Same settings as for the shootout this year.
4 sec exposure
100 ISO
4.0 Aperture
Manual focus
Daylight white balance

I used two different lenses to try to give a better perspective on "throw" vs. "width."

The first three shots all use the telephoto lens in this order:
1) Original DS-1300 XP-E (single triple) minimum 5000K color temp
2) New XP-E (single triple) probably in the minimum 6000K color temp range
3) New XP-E (double triple), aka "throw monster"

The last two shots show the importance of having a second lens of the frosted variety by using the wide angle lens and showing everything back to a few feet in front of the wheel.

4) New XP-E (double triple). Notice the lack of spill light in the near field (it's why they work so good for throw).
5) Add in the XP-G (R5) with a narrow frosted lens coupled with the New XP-E and you get "almost" as good on throw, but far better wide angle coverage and a nice smooth beam all the way out. For my eyes it's almost the perfect beam pattern.

I'll post the full res shots over on the DesignShine Blog.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Stephen,

I noticed you said that on a helmet, if you limited the light to 3 or 4 you could run it on a magicshine 2S pack? Does that mean I could run it sufficiently well on a 2S2P magicshine pack? You said it 'wasn't recommended' in a post somewhere earlier... Could you elaborate? Would it 
A) damage the battery
B) damage the light/controller
C) reduce the brightness


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

GraXXoR said:


> Stephen,
> You said it 'wasn't recommended' in a post somewhere earlier... Could you elaborate? Would it
> A) damage the battery
> B) damage the light/controller
> C) reduce the brightness


You could spend a little time and read this thread, including link to Design Shine website to answer your own questions.

It's because it's so bright at night that he recommends only level 3 for both tail light and head light unless you ride where there's no cars and less population.

Level 4 and 5 use during the day.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> Stephen,
> 
> I noticed you said that on a helmet, if you limited the light to 3 or 4 you could run it on a magicshine 2S pack? Does that mean I could run it sufficiently well on a 2S2P magicshine pack? You said it 'wasn't recommended' in a post somewhere earlier... Could you elaborate? Would it
> A) damage the battery
> ...


Sure, let me clarify on those points.

A)
No problem for the battery. At 14 watts (level 5) and 7.4V, the current will be fairly high out of the battery (1.9 amps), but this shouldn't be a problem for the typical 18650-based li-ion pack. The only time you really have to worry about damaging a battery is if you over discharge or alternately overload and pull too much current (sustained). The over-discharge scenario is taken care of by the light controller, since it is programmed to shut off well before the battery reaches dangerous discharge levels.

C)
Since the light controller is a fully regulated boost mode current controller, it will necessarily maintain a constant current to the LEDs for a particular power level, regardless of the input voltage, so the lower voltage will not affect brightness in any way.

B)
This is the only area of concern for using 7.4V as the source for the headlight. To drive all six LED in series (lots of reasons for using the series configuration that I won't go into), you need upwards of 18 to 19 volts. As a rule of thumb, the larger the gap between the input source and the output drive level, the more inefficient the controller and the more power is dissipated in the components of the controller since it is now having to "work harder" to boost the voltage up to the necessary level. This is my sole concern for running the light for extended amounts of time at the highest drive level with the 7.4V input. The taillight, being lower power, does not have the same concern. I do plan on getting the 2-cell pack and doing some thermal testing with the headlight, just to definitely characterize the limits.

Hope that helps.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Stephen,

That is the info I was looking for.

It would be nice to know some run times/efficiencies for driving your light at various levels with a 7.4v pack.

I know how busy u must be, but it might be nice data to add to your runtimes chart.

Thanks as always for the rapid response!



CDA:

No need for the lippy attitude.
I've "read the posts", been to both his old and new websites and still had that question.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> Stephen,
> 
> That is the info I was looking for.
> 
> ...


You bet. That's a really good suggestion. Based on my experience with instrumented run-down testing on the 11.1V packs. I went back and made some estimates for the 7.4V pack. In practice, I've measured efficiencies in the controller that were on average 4 to 6% lower with the 7.4V input. Based on empirical data, I've found that I can "de-rate" the calculations to account for the fact that input current from the battery does not increase linearly over the full discharge cycle, so the estimates should be pretty good. I'm sure there's a margin of error, probably in the +/- 10% range, but that's really just a guess.

Bottom line is that for the penalty of carrying around one extra 18650 cell, you can get essentially the same run times out of a 4400mAH 7.4V pack as you can a 2800mAH 11.1V pack. The only other caveat being that I would not recommend the full 700mA drive on the headlight with the 7.4V pack. If you just really wanted to use the 7.4V with the headlight, then the best option would be to reduce the maximum drive down to 500mA (via MaxFlex programming). After doing this, the maximum output of the light will be reduced down to the 900 to 1000 lumen range, but then you'd have slightly higher output compared to just limiting yourself to level 4 with the 700mA drive.

I've updated the run time tables on the website.
Also updated to reflect the measurements made with the newer version 6 Maxflex, but subject to change as I make more measurements to get a good average.

Do note that I've observed some issues with the GeoMan 4.5AHr battery when running in high power flash mode, and I can elaborate on those if need be.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Stephen, 

Wow... This is the difference when dealing with an individual/small company! Response speed!
Can't believe you've already updated your website with a full set of graphs... smashing!

That's just what I was looking for. I have four of these packs, so it's nice to know that I can reuse them in emergencies....

I notice, you said that the voltages involved with the rear light are less than those with the front light, but I see on your data that the "penalties" for running a 2S pack are the same as for the front light, i.e. 3S1P ≈ 2S2P.

Still, it's really nice to see that the run times with s 2S2P are entirely practical and run for longer than the Magicshine 816 (1.8h at - rarely used- full power) which is what I'm currently running with.

On a different note, how difficult is the reprogramming, say, were I to swap between an 3S and a 2S pack in order to set protection switch off voltage?

I know that the maxflex has some user programmable aspects, but accessing all the function menus though a one button interface sounds about as much fun as punching out programme cards with my bare fingers 

Also, could you explain to us a little more about the cell balancing aspect of the new build? That sounds like a really high-end feature that no $300 dollar light currently boasts. That would really put your new build "in the spotlight" so to speak...

As always, keep us posted. I'm really enjoying hearing your progress.

Craig.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> Stephen,
> 
> Wow... This is the difference when dealing with an individual/small company! Response speed!
> Can't believe you've already updated your website with a full set of graphs... smashing!
> ...


Thanks Craig.
Let me see if I can clarify on few of those points.
First off on the 11.1V vs. 7.4V issue. Yes, there is a small decrease in controller efficiency as the input voltage drops. This, in and of itself however, is not a large contributor to the total power consumption, but since it's all manifested in the controller board itself, then from the controller board's perspective, it can make a big difference. From the studies that have been done on the Maxflex, the general rule of thumb is to avoid exceeding 2 watts in the controller unless you can provide a method of heat-sinking for the power inductor. In a package like this, it's virtually impossible to do that, so the only recourse is to just hold the power down.

The "penalty" aspect of dropping the input voltage comes from the fact that this is a constant power device. As you drop the input voltage, more and more current is required to maintain the same power level. And as current goes up, so must the battery capacity to maintain the same run time. It just so happens to work out that the 2800mAH 11.1V and 4400mAH 7.4V are nearly equal with regard to power capacity. In fact, just look at these numbers. They could be considered to be "power" capacity. We're just not used to seeing a battery described this way.

2.8*11.1 = 31.08 Amp-Hour-Volts
4.4*7.4 = 32.56 Amp-Hour-Volts

Now we need to penalize the 7.4V pack by about 5% (the difference in the controller efficiency) and we have:

32.56 * 0.95 = 30.93

Which is practically identical to the 11.1V pack.

Concerning programming... I must say, when I first starting working with the Maxflex, it was a bit daunting to get my head around all the options. However, once you distill it down to just the few functions that are required for this particular application, it really is pretty easy. I plan on making some tutorial videos just to help folks get past the learning curve, so they can quickly be able to perform the operation exactly as you describe. Say for example you find that your 11.1V pack is dead and you want to use your 7.4V pack. If you don't re-program the cutoff limits, then as soon as you try to use the 7.4V, the light will think it's dealing with a seriously depleted battery and go into shutdown.

So, you'd then break out your cheat sheet with just a few lines of instructions telling you which menu to select. You'd then enter the new cutoff voltage by tapping out the number for each digit XY.Z. So for a 6V cutoff, for example, you'd be entering 06.0 in a process like this:

no-click = 0, followed by a PRESS to enter,
6 clicks, followed by a PRESS to enter,
no-click = 0, followed by a PRESS to enter.

In this case, a video is worth a thousand words. If it was something you did often, then you'd easily be able to change between each voltage standard in a matter of minutes.

Now, on the flip side, if you were programmed for 7.4V operation and needed to use a known good 11.1V pack for a while, you could do it straight away without the need to reprogram.

Concerning balancing... I know that some packs say that they perform this function, but I'd certainly not assume that all packs do. If you look at any of the lithium polymer packs typically used in RC-airplane applications, they are literally bare cells. They have no hard metal case, and they have no on-board circuit protection (except for the speed controller), so when you charge a battery like this, you really NEED to use a balancing charger. This means that each cell will be monitored during the charging process and the charger's "brain" will compare each and make adjustments (discharging some if necessary) to insure that each cell is at the same voltage. This prevents any individual cell from becoming over charged or over discharged over time, which is not only a safety factor, but will also prolong the life of the pack. All of the 11.1V packs that I've spec'ed out, have to pass a quality test before they get to me. And I run each one through a full charge and load test before letting them go.

As an aside...
I posted a few more user-pics over on the new web site today if you're interested.

Thanks for all the great questions!


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

GraXXoR said:


> CDA:
> 
> No need for the lippy attitude.
> I've "read the posts", been to both his old and new websites and still had that question.


No need for getting your panties all twisted :lol:  .

That was a genuine response/post. Lighten up Francis; this *is* the internet...


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Stephen,

Now THAT'S what I call a comprehensive answer! Yes, with driver inefficiencies taken into account I can see that the Watt Hour ratings come out even, I guess due to the higher quality 2800mAh(?) cells used in your packs.
It's good to know that reprogramming is only a few minute rather than half an hour job.

---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=35.745509,139.759908


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> Stephen,
> 
> Now THAT'S what I call a comprehensive answer! Yes, with driver inefficiencies taken into account I can see that the Watt Hour ratings come out even, I guess due to the higher quality 2800mAh(?) cells used in your packs.
> It's good to know that reprogramming is only a few minute rather than half an hour job.


Yes, I spec'ed out the higher capacity 2800mAH batteries for my triangular 11.1V packs. They're pretty unique. A lot of energy in that small package and easy to strap to about anything. To my knowledge L&M is the only other outfit that has a similar battery, but it's crazy expensive. My new packs are using the new 2900mAH cells, but I'm not going to get too excited until I can do some full run-down tests and compare. They're supposed to be shipped to me this Monday, so we'll see soon.

So did you escape anything serious from the Tsunami? I sure hope so!


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Excellent news! High qual batteries with balancing are sure to be a winning combo.

Just out of interest, why did you say that you should limit the current to 500mA rather than the already conservative 700mA at which you drive your LEDs?
So say 14W output with, let's say a 20% inefficiency case. That would be about 17W input. At, even 6V that would be less than 3A, which with 2.2Ah cells is less than 1.4C current discharge. That doesn't seem particularly outrageous. Does the Magicshine battery pack limit output current?

I have lived in Japan for the better part of 13 years now and as such have experienced numerous earthquakes of magnitude 5 and a couple of magnitude 6 or so. But the massive magnitude 9 earthquake that struck in spring was thousands of times more powerful than those and was actually more than 200 times more powerful than the infamous Kobe Earthquake of '95 which killed thousands. 

My school, which I was in with my students at the time of the quake, shook violently from side to side like a boat on stormy water. There was a lateral movement which peaked at about 8 yards, backwards and forwards once a second or so, for over 5 minutes. It was impossible to remain standing and for a minute there, we honestly thought we were all going to die.

It was perhaps one of the most terrifying moments of my life and since that time, every slight tremor sets my heart off.

But, on the other hand, the earthquake has brought our community together for the first
time literally since the war and I have made more friends since March than I made since coming to Japan until that point.

Moreover, because of the Earthquake, I have started riding around Tokyo, 20km or more per day, in order to visit all of the wonderful places my city has to offer because, if one believes the news, a massive, Tokyo earthquake is on its way...

And I guess, indirectly I have the earthquake to thank for my interest in bike lights, since 90% of my riding is done after 9pm...

Sorry for the long post.

Craig.


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## savvas (Mar 21, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> My school, which I was in with my students at the time of the quake, shook violently from side to side like a boat on stormy water. There was a lateral movement which peaked at about 8 yards, backwards and forwards once a second or so, for over 5 minutes. It was impossible to remain standing and for a minute there, we honestly thought we were all going to die.


8 metres! Back and forth! Once a second! For 5 minutes! That I think Craig is the most telling description of a major earthquake I have ever read! For those metrically deprived I'll remind you that 8 metres is about the height of a 2 level block of flats or about 25 feet! I find it very, very hard to imagine such an experience. See Tokyo while it's there...

Back to bike lights - I use my DS lights for commuting only. I find the original 3 cell batteries very adequate for my 40minute commute. I use the lights day and night (different settings). I've never run out of juice and I only charge them about 1 X week.

Incidentally I seem to get much more of what I think is referred to as 'respect', especially at T-junctions where previously it was not unusual for waiting drivers to pull out, completely disregarding my approach (or perhaps misjudging my speed). I've also lost count of the shouts 'your lights are on'... But being a long-time dynamo user I'm used to that!

BTW, I use my DS lights without Stephen's extension bars. I just relocated the Cateye mounts directly to the light bodies. I use them on the bars at the front and at the rear of my pannier rack with no problems at all (using the special DS rack mount at the rear). I find it a neater and more compact set up for my purposes. For those with 'bare' road bikes I think the DS500 might be better served by a seatpost mount that made better use of the Cateye sliding shoe with the light in a horizontal position (as the mount was designed to work). I believe the top part of the handlebar mount (the bit that slides into the 'spacer' attached to the lights) is removable and could be mated to an alloy adapter which in turn could be maybe fitted to a standard Cateye or other) seatpost clamp - maybe a Smart-style clamp like Dinotte seem to use.

Just an idea...

Savvas.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> Just out of interest, why did you say that you should limit the current to 500mA rather than the already conservative 700mA at which you drive your LEDs?
> So say 14W output with, let's say a 20% inefficiency case. That would be about 17W input. At, even 6V that would be less than 3A, which with 2.2Ah cells is less than 1.4C current discharge. That doesn't seem particularly outrageous. Does the Magicshine battery pack limit output current?


I agree, I've never heard a description in those terms before. Just amazing! Very cool to hear how the tragic experience is drawing people closer together.

To answer your question... The total power nominally consumed by the light on high is around 14 to 14.5 watts (don't have my spreadsheets in front of me at the moment). This includes the controller losses. So you are correct, it's not too hard for a 7.4V pack to run either light. Running both (head and tail) off of a single 7.4V might not be the best idea though. The power dissipated in the LEDs themselves at a maximum drive of 700mA is around 12.6 watts (give or take), so the issue is how well does the controller handle it's own power dissipation?

One of the super-nice things about the TaskLED driver boards is that George really went out of his way to provide a large area on the board for heat sinking. But, one of the tricky balancing acts is getting heat out of the controller while also "sensing" and protecting the LEDs. At the same time that your trying to get heat out of the controller, you're also raising the temperature of the "sink" itself. Its just HOT in there. This is where the design of the housing is really important. In reality, the only area of concern for the 7.4V input is where the controller happens to be running right on the "edge" of needing to throttle back. Since the efficiencies of the controller drop by another 6% or so with the lower voltage input, some of that excess power gets burned in the "flyback" inductor, which is whole reason for concern. Because of thermal gradients in the board itself, it's possible for the inductor to get "hot" very rapidly before the thermal detection has a chance to kick in. The big question is HOW HOT will it get and is it too hot? I have a hard time answering that question empirically right now, so I can only go by the math and the recommendations that George has made, based on his own studies. You can find his white paper here:
http://www.taskled.com/leds/max4_thermal_guide.pdf

Or just the summary quoted here:
"At power levels with driver heat losses in the 2W range, it is sufficient to utilize a single heatsink attached to the gold thermal attachment area. As heat losses increase beyond 2W it may be necessary to provide heatsinking of the inductor to prevent shutdown and possible damage of the switcher IC."

SO... the reason I recommended running at a 500mA drive was, 1) just to completely avoid the borderline region of operation with the 7.4V input (especially when it's near the end of the charge), and 2) to give slightly higher output than if using the 700mA drive and running on level 4 instead of level 5.

Long answer I know... and I'm still not sure I explained it adequately, but I hope that helps a bit.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Just saw your build blog. The battery packs look excellent. How are you going to waterproof them? And balancing, yay! Should give decent lifespan.

I have a lens question. 

It's nice that even an elliptical lens could be retrofitted/swapped in to your #2s 

But I remember you mentioned the elliptical lens suffers a lot of loss. Is it a significantly greater loss than the wide frosted?

Because I'm presuming that the frosted lenses are omnidirectional rather than directional, by which I mean, they scatter light in an even sphere rather than a horizontal plane such as a cylinder.

Why I'm asking is, I love a good wide flood, but it's really annoying that in doing so, half of the light ends up in the trees. Since I spend practically no time in the bush.

I would love some sort of lens that spreads light horizontally more than vertically but doesn't have the huge losses of the elliptical lens. Any options available?


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> Just saw your build blog. The battery packs look excellent. How are you going to waterproof them? And balancing, yay! Should give decent lifespan.
> 
> I have a lens question.
> 
> ...


You're assessment is essentially correct, but I may have miscommunicated a bit on the lens efficiencies. The elliptical is actually quite efficient. For comparison, here are some efficiency numbers:
Spot Lens (XP-E, 88.7%); (XP-G, 87.3%)
Elliptical Lens (XP-E, 88.1%); (XP-G, 86.5%)
Narrow Frosted (XP-E, 85%); (XP-G, 85%)

The elliptical lens makes a nice "flat" and wide beam, far wider than the "round" lenses. Here are the angles for the elliptical:
43° X 16° FWHM - XPE
43.6° X 23.3° FWHM - XPG

Now, the one lens where you really get clobbered on the efficiency is the "wide" frosted lens. To me this lens is just too "lossy" for this application. Here are the numbers:
Wide Frosted (XP-E, 80%); (XP-G, 78.3)

The elliptical really does work quite well (you can see some wall shots of the red taillight earlier in this thread that show the general shape). I only have a few misgivings for using it on the headlight:
1. It's so wide (I'm talking way past the edges of the road), that you do give up some forward intensity.
2. With a wide flat beam, it's important to mount the light lower to the ground. A helmet mounted elliptical just doesn't work at all. It projects almost a horizontal "line" on the ground.
3 With the lowered intensity of the wide spread from the XP-G ellipitcal, the combination with the XP-E spot is a little abrupt. In other words, you have this nice spread of light, practically covering your entire field of few, then you have a really intense SPOT in the middle without a nice transition between the two.

Now, one option that I haven't tried, which might really be the flood-lovers dream, is the elliptical on the XP-G, and the narrow frosted on the XP-E. I'll definitely have to try that one out and post some shots once I get my new stock of XP-G boards.

Hope that helps!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

pethelman said:


> ....Now, one option that I haven't tried, which might really be the flood-lovers dream, is the elliptical on the XP-G, and the narrow frosted on the XP-E. I'll definitely have to try that one out and post some shots once I get my new stock of XP-G boards.
> 
> Hope that helps!


This is what I like about your set-up...All the great options!

At this point I'm beginning to figure that the Aliens have implanted a mind-reading device into my brain and are linking it to the one in yours. :smilewinkgrin:


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

It just gets better! Thx for the lovely data! Its a descerning light buyer's dream!

When Francois (?) did his video he stated that what impressed him enough to review your light was the clear way you explained your lights' functionality and the copious excel spreadsheets to sent him with various data!

A nice balance might be spot on the XP-G and elliptical on the XP-E that would be somewhat like the MJ-816 which uses a P7 with orange peel reflector and 2 XP-Es with elliptical lenses. 

Or would that just be a compromise of both spot and flood!

Oh for a range of elliptical lenses...


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*Good News*

Learned today through my LED supplier that the XP-E that I'll be getting for this current build is really and truly an R4 XP-E, NOT High Effeciency White (HEW). Apparently CREE had a low enough yield of these "super" XP-E that they didn't even make the datasheets. They really are good, and I'm not sure how I was lucky enough to get my hands on them?

On an unrelated note, I discovered tonight that the little right angle bracket that I ginned up for a recumbent mount concept works really well for the problematic aerobar mount. Pretty cool. I think I'll make a few and throw them in with the anodizing run.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Would driving two 1300's from a single six cell battery be possible/unadvisable?

---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=35.747188,139.761569


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Just speculating/dreaming, but have you experimented with running a single XML instead of either the xp-g or xp-e triples?

If you are only getting 650 True lumens from one half of your light, couldn't you easily achieve 700lm at only 2.4 amps, like the magicshine 808E?

Have you tried two, single XMLs? In the same body?

Or even a triple XML instead of the XPGs for the wide beam?


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*Dual 1300*



GraXXoR said:


> Would driving two 1300's from a single six cell battery be possible/unadvisable?
> 
> ---
> I am here: Google Maps


Yes, it's OK to run two from a single 5200mAH, 11.1V battery.
Nominally, at full power, the DS-1300 is drawing about 1.2 amps from the battery. When you're getting down to the last 20% of the battery, the current goes up a bit as the controller is working harder to maintain the same drive to the LEDs as the battery voltage sags. In this case, worst case current from the 11.1V battery is around 1.35 amps.

So with a 5200mAH battery, the 2C discharge amp rating is 5.2/2 = 2.6 amps.
So worst case with two lights from one pack is right around 2.7 amps.

Keep in mind that at the higher discharge rates, you do give up some of the capacity of the battery due to internal resistive losses. To complicate matters even more, you can't treat these bike lights as a "constant" load because of the internal controller. In practice, I've found that roughly a 0.9 de-rating factor works pretty good to estimate battery life off of the nominal load current. In this case the de-rating factor will be a bit higher because of the higher current.

So for the dual DS-1300 with the 5200mAH, I'm going to estimate:
5.2*0.85/2.5 = 1.77 or approximately 1hr and 45min on high.

I'm here to tell you though, that two DS-1300s on one bike is pretty crazy. If you had two on the bars, each aimed slightly outward, you'd have a FAR better high-lumen solution than any single 3000+ lumen light.

Here's a picture of just that, although the light on the right had a spot/spot combo, which is why it's a bit dark in the near-field right side. With 4 lenses to play with, I'd probably run:
XP-E 1, Spot
XP-G 1, Narrow Frosted
XP-E 2, Spot
XP-G 2, Elliptical


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*XML musings*



GraXXoR said:


> Just speculating/dreaming, but have you experimented with running a single XML instead of either the xp-g or xp-e triples?
> 
> If you are only getting 650 True lumens from one half of your light, couldn't you easily achieve 700lm at only 2.4 amps, like the magicshine 808E?
> 
> ...


I've looked long and hard at the XM-L from every possible angle, and at the end of the day, compared to the current DS-1300 design, I just can't come up with any good reasons to try and switch. The difference between the 3XPE+3XPG compared to a 2-XML, with regard to total lumen output and run time is basically negligible.

I spent an awful lot of time designing/testing/refining the current design, and it works so well, that I'm very hesitant to try and make any changes. To make these lights available, even on a relatively small scale, I have to make a pretty large investment in materials in large enough quantities to get the cost-per-unit down to reasonable numbers. So at a minimum, once I have a viable design in hand, I'm locked in for a while.

Since I also had the road bike market in mind with these lights, I really like the lower compact profile (right at 1.125" x 2" x 1.85") compared to the round body designs. I also spent an immense amount of on time on the clear lens cover, which, to me, is a fairly unique feature of these lights. The amount of effective side lighting that comes through this cover is also somewhat dependent on the characteristics of the small triple-optics. Lastly, the ability to swap out multiple optics (that are inexpensive and readily available) on both the XPE and XPG triple is a really nice feature.

With the XM-L, I would end up compromising on the size of the case as well as some of the side lighting. Not to mention, I would lose the commonality with the taillight, which helps me achieve some economy of scale and keep the prices as low as possible. Also, not to mention, everybody and their brother is building a double XM-L now, and I kind of like having something that stands out a bit and offers some unique characteristics over and above the XM-L.

So, yes, I like the XM-L, I just don't think it makes sense in the current design. Maybe someday.... but of course by then, the XM-L will be old news and everybody will be racing to the next "best" thing. To my eyes, I wouldn't have a need for more light than the DS-1300 offers. Now that we've achieved these kind of light levels from a single light, the best option for more light really is a second light with different lenses and/or aiming. Just my 2 cents worth


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Stephen,

Do you think you could offer a pack of optional lenses for sale to save us from having to hunt them down on the internet?

Yes, two would be some serious lumens but I was also thinking of two for the front because there are some hair-raising junctions in Tokyo.
A hair-raising junction...
...where I would really enjoy having a flashing front light as well as constant light and at just such a junction, i could change one to a flasher to make me more noticeable.

As always, thank you for all the informative comments. I'm really looking forward to your new build.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> Stephen,
> 
> Do you think you could offer a pack of optional lenses for sale to save us from having to hunt them down on the internet?
> 
> ...


OK, that's just insane...makes me a little crazy even thinking about trying to cross that one. Yes, one step ahead of you on the lenses. For the online store, I'm going to have two different options, the simple one-click system purchase, but also the Ala-carte pick and choose whatever component you may want option. You'll have the option of picking out any additional lenses of any type. They're only $2 a piece, so it'd probably be good just to pick up a spare set to have on hand in case you ever needed to make a repair.

If you were going to run two headlights at night with one flashing, I'd probably keep the yellow filter on the flashing side at the lowest power level and aim it higher than you would normally for illuminating the road. This way you're not constantly looking at a flashing light on the road in front of you AND the cars get a very clear indication of something to look out for. Never really thought about it before, but It's a really good idea!


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Great news about the lenses!
Is the gasket (o-ring) long-lived? Will it survive x amounts of lens changing?

Yes, a power flasher pointing directly forward would also obviate the need for removing the yellow filter every evening and putting it back on in the morning... 
I'd probably use the high power flasher in the daytime and at lower power in conjunction with a steady light at night.

I'd also be curious to see what the visibility of the yellow filtered light is in poor weather... Since it is thought that the eye can focus more easily on yellow tints than blue. 

I'd be tempted to mount it as low as possible with an elliptical lens.

$250 bucks is a reasonable price to pay for 3+ years of daily convenience and safety, because I know myself well enough to know that I wouldn't bother with the filter after a couple of weeks!


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> Great news about the lenses!
> Is the gasket (o-ring) long-lived? Will it survive x amounts of lens changing?
> 
> Yes, a power flasher pointing directly forward would also obviate the need for removing the yellow filter every evening and putting it back on in the morning...
> ...


Yes, the o-rings that seal off against the lenses themselves are super cool. Very soft durometer (20 Shore) silicon, so they are very resilient and impervious to heat/weather/ozone etc. Really, the only precaution would be to insure that they are clean, when and if it comes time to remove the lens cover and replace lenses. These o-rings are soft enough that they work great even when dry, so there's no need for any extra coating on the lens o-rings.

Slightly different story for the o-ring that seals off between the lens cover the housing. It's a black neoprene material, and will have a bit of silicon grease on it to help the lens cover pop on easily and also help with the sealing. As long as the light is clean before you remove the cover, it should be a non-issue just to put the lens cover back on without having to worry about the o-ring.

I've been told that the yellow filter works particularly well in fog/rain, but I haven't tried that yet for myself.


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## Bedubya (Dec 13, 2011)

*Split Yellow/Clear Lens*

Hey Stephen... it's Bryon (we've been going back and forth via email-thanks for all of the quick, highly informative and useful replies as seems to be your MO with your lights). I was wondering if you had considered a split colored lens... yellow and clear, either split horizontally or vertically, depending on the benefits each orientation could offer? Across the width (horizontally), you could shade the top half of the light to oncoming traffic (avoiding dazzling on higher settings and to provide more "be seen" type light attraction) yet keeping the lower half fully lit to the road. I imagine you would take a hit in output, but the safety factor potential is high. Or maybe consider splitting the two lights into separate colors (vertically) so that one lamp is clear and the other (potentially flashing) side could be yellow. best of both worlds without all the second light cost/bulk/etc.? Just a thought...:thumbsup:


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

@Bedubya I saw in an earlier message that someone wanted a sold and a flash rear light in one unit, but due to the driver, Stephen can't make one flash and one steady... 

I'm really hoping that with these insanely bright lights these days that someone will come up with a road reflector that doesn't waste half of the light in the trees: like the Philips one reviewed in the shootout but with a "proper" kilo-lumen class output.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> @Bedubya I saw in an earlier message that someone wanted a sold and a flash rear light in one unit, but due to the driver, Stephen can't make one flash and one steady...
> 
> I'm really hoping that with these insanely bright lights these days that someone will come up with a road reflector that doesn't waste half of the light in the trees: like the Philips one reviewed in the shootout but with a "proper" kilo-lumen class output.


Shhhhhh... don't tell anyone. I'm secretly modifying (translate - gutting) a Philips SafeRide to use Dual XM-L, TaskLed driver, and external battery. Should be interesting.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Bedubya said:


> Hey Stephen... it's Bryon (we've been going back and forth via email-thanks for all of the quick, highly informative and useful replies as seems to be your MO with your lights). I was wondering if you had considered a split colored lens... yellow and clear, either split horizontally or vertically, depending on the benefits each orientation could offer? Across the width (horizontally), you could shade the top half of the light to oncoming traffic (avoiding dazzling on higher settings and to provide more "be seen" type light attraction) yet keeping the lower half fully lit to the road. I imagine you would take a hit in output, but the safety factor potential is high. Or maybe consider splitting the two lights into separate colors (vertically) so that one lamp is clear and the other (potentially flashing) side could be yellow. best of both worlds without all the second light cost/bulk/etc.? Just a thought...:thumbsup:


Hey Bryon,
Yes, all very good ideas... and believe me, I tried the "shading" approach. There's just no shading the small triple optics. The only way that shading works is if you've blocked the direct line of sight to the emitter AND you really need to have the remaining light collimated off of a reflector. The way that you handle this with the DesignShine is that you have a Medium/High setting that you switch (toggle) between with a single click of the power button. On medium, the output is just over 600 lumens. Plenty bright to navigate by, but not bright enough to dazzle oncoming traffic. When you're on your own and IF you need the full 1300 lumen, then just bump it back up to high. The light is also easily aimed right or left, so that's also a quick and easy option if you're on high and need to take the full straight-on intensity down a bit.

Sneak peak... I just finished up a tutorial video series, and you can see Tutorial no.5 that talks about aiming on YouTube.

As GraXXor mentioned, the one side flashing, one side solid scenario is just not an option with the drive electronics that I'm using. These things are so small, you could easily put two on the bars running off the same battery, and have one dedicated flashing yellow at lower power.

Thanks for the feedback!


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

pethelman said:


> Shhhhhh... don't tell anyone. I'm secretly modifying (translate - gutting) a Philips SafeRide to use Dual XM-L, TaskLed driver, and external battery. Should be interesting.


Whispering: Fandabidozie! Now That's what I'm talking about...


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Dude... 2 weeks no update.... It's a new year.... New products to compare with... What's the status?


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*Progress update*



GraXXoR said:


> Dude... 2 weeks no update.... It's a new year.... New products to compare with... What's the status?


Ah yes... progress is definitely being made, just somewhat behind the scenes at the moment.

120 mounting tabs cut and drilled and adhered to Maxflex boards.
Internal wiring cut to length, stripped and in the process of being soldered into Maxflex boards.
Battery packs being wired and sealed.
Housings are still being cut. I don't have a good feel for when they will be complete yet, but hopefully in the next 2 weeks.
Once I get the housings anodized, then the tedious process of adhering the LED boards to the housing begins.
Lens cover drawings are at the CNC shop and 300 of them should be finished by the end of this month. (In order to get any kind of relief on the price of this part, I had to go with a higher quantity in an anticipation of future builds.)
I've been working with an individual who is a professional CNC operator and owns his own equipment. I have a sample in hand from him of the headlight housing, and let's just say it's VERY good. We'll be working out a schedule for future housings (Build #3).

In case you haven't seen them, I've also put together a series of tutorial videos that might be helpful.
The first one is a general introduction to the lights.
At the end of each video is a link to the next in the series.
The most recent is a detailed description on how to get into programming mode and change things like Superlock.

Happy New Year!


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Your level of professionalism is outstanding. One of the banes of 'open source' and 'minor players' has been a lack of clear, concise information for the end user and while the product might be good, info regarding said product is often lacking.

You have somehow managed to cover even that tedious aspect of the design process!

---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=35.753993,139.738310


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> Your level of professionalism is outstanding. One of the banes of 'open source' and 'minor players' has been a lack of clear, concise information for the end user and while the product might be good, info regarding said product is often lacking.
> 
> You have somehow managed to cover even that tedious aspect of the design process!
> 
> ...


Thanks very much! With a full time day job and young family I certainly can't crank out great quantities of lights at this point, but what I'm lacking in volume, I try to make up for in quality and good communications with the customer. Definitely looking forward to getting more of these lights out on the road and trails soon!


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Have you got a ballpark price yet sorted out yet? Or maybe a "preorder price"


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> Have you got a ballpark price yet sorted out yet? Or maybe a "preorder price"


I'm trying to simplify the purchasing process as much as possible. The on-line store (when it becomes available, hopefully later this month) will allow the standard cart shopping experience and users will be able to check out via PayPal, whether you have a PayPal account or not. There will be simple standard package options as well as "buffet-style" for buying individual piece-parts as needed.

I've been toying around with the idea of a small pre-order deposit, followed by full payment after the hardware is ready to ship, but the logistics of that are becoming a bit daunting. So maybe the pre-order pricing is the way to go. Margins on these lights are already razor thin, so probably what I'll do is offer a pre-order price on the first 15 headlights and 15 taillights. Right now, I'm thinking $10 off per light head. So if you ordered the head/tail combo you'd get $20 off + the $5 discount that is already built into the combo. Shipping will be free (in the USA) for any orders that include lights. For international, I just pass along the actual USPS costs, usually in the $25 to $35 range. I'll have to leave myself a little wiggle room, but at this point, I don't expect any major changes.

Here's the newly updated Price List.


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## tomchiles (Jan 17, 2012)

These lights look really nice. Looking to purchase a new light soon and this is one of the lights on my list. Has anyone had any issues with this light?


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

tomchiles said:


> These lights look really nice. Looking to purchase a new light soon and this is one of the lights on my list. Has anyone had any issues with this light?


Hey Tomchiles, I'm finding that the folks in this cycling/lighting community are absolutely the best folks in the world to do business with. Several of my early customers are on the boards here, but it's a small number, since I only built 30 taillights and 20 headlights for the initial product test. The feedback was overwhelmingly positive, and I've tried to collect some of the comments on the website feedback page. So far, I haven't heard back from anyone on a single reliability issue over the last 10 months. I fully test and burn-in every light, including a full charge cycle on the battery to insure that the charger works properly and is actually putting a full charge on the battery.

As a result of the good initial response, I'm working on building a larger run of lights (with a few nice improvements) and will be making them available in the coming weeks. Since I hand-build each and every one these lights, I stand by them 100% if anything ever goes wrong. If you ever manage to hurt one in a crash, I'll get you back up and running for the cost of parts.


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## MarkinKS (Apr 10, 2012)

I got a Dinotte 400R in '08, then after testing it out, I bought two more (plus Dinotte bar and helmet lights). 

If I were starting the hunt today for a seriously bright taillight, I'd try Mr. Pethelman's DS 500. The youtubes show the difference between 500 Lumes and 240 Lumes. Frontlight mfrs are in a war to light up the road/trail to SEE, but have ignored the benefits of BEING SEEN.

Rob DiNotte will always be revered, perhaps by a tiny coterie, as the guy who came up with the idea of a taillight that changed the behavior of cagers, in daytime. For the first time, they could, if not completely "awake", see "Something is ahead of me at 200-400 yards," I have time and distance to figure out how to go around it, instead of panic-braking and riding my horn to show my adrenaline-fueled frustration." With a Dinotte 400R, I went from at least one horn-blarer on my butt every ride to one every several months. Daytime. Nighttime, none, because even inattentive drivers were alerted I was a half-mile ahead. Rob saw something no one else did in the taillight-manufacturing business. He was kind of like the Steve Jobs of taillight designers.

Mr. Pethelham has raised the ante. Mr. DiNotte invented the highly-visible-to-daytime-drivers taillight. So he gets named to the Bicycle Safety Inventors Hall of Fame, when that gets created. He was a visionary.

I'm not going to discard my 400Rs. They are satisfactory to me, even in their 5th year. They affect drivers' behavior, i.e. the drivers see me well ahead of them, and relaxedly figure out how to go around me. Now, if I'm in the right lane at a stoplight, and some drivers behind me are turning right, the drivers behind them going through, can't see my light, but the DS-500 would have the same problem.

I suspect that Rob can boost taillight power to whateverlumens he wants. His original 400R used Seoul emitters. Newer Crees are more powerful. 

Mr. Pethelham's taillights can be down-powered for nighttime use. That's a nice feature. For side-visibility, I aim my Dinotte a bit leftward, since I mostly ride in the right lane, so side visibility is not a problem.

I think that with the much more energy-efficient Crees, now XL-M, Rob should use these. A lot of drivers today are increasingly looking down at their smartphones. Brighter taillights are better at getting their attention. Rob DiNotte invented the high-visibility-in-daytime taillight. Stephen Pethelham has used brighter LEDs to improve upon Rob DiNotte's bike-ride-experience-changing concept, a "night light" that works on bright sunny days to give drivers advanced notice that something is ahead, and time to cooly deal with it, and riders a lot more comfort and safety. 

I was hit by a car, uninsured, for the first time in over 50 years of riding, last November. It was a "left hook". I had my Dinotte 400R on, but no headlight, even though I had one. Late afternoon riding, I had gotten "too complacent". Fortunately, the car T-boned me, and I was heads-up enough to jump high and roll onto the hood and into the windshield. My Giro Ionos protected my head, while making a major "orb-weaver spider" crack in the drivers' windshield, and my shoulder did another set of cracks. Also hood dents. I was unable to ride for 6 weeks, and intimidated from riding for several more weeks. Anyway, I'm back to riding, now with a helmet light I'd put into the drawer. I'm riding with it again.

The DesignShine 500 is the brightest taillight on the market. But rear collisions aren't your only probem. New-tech car-mounted collision-warning systems are cool. But universal implementation is at least a decade away.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*Whew!*

Very sorry to hear of your accident, but I'm very glad to hear that you're back riding again!!! I can't even imagine the mind games that must result after an experience like that. The 400R was indeed my inspiration for creating the DS-500. I wanted something that went beyond really bright and into the levels of ridiculously bright, but at the same time, small, and smartly mounted with good night side visibility.

Statistically, I think the "left hook" is the most common occurrence, so yes, an equally good "be seen" daytime headlight should be standard equipment these days. I added a neat feature on the headlight to be able to add a "fluorescent" yellow filter to the front of the headlight during the day that can be easily removed at night. It's very "other-worldly" looking, so it really stands out from sunlight glints and reflections. I also put a lot of time into optimizing the flash modes for day and night use, but the controller also has fully user-programmable flash timing for those that like to experiment.

If these lights could ever prevent one incident like yours from happening, all the long hours and work will have been worth it!


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## savvas (Mar 21, 2011)

GraXXoR said:


> Your level of professionalism is outstanding. One of the banes of 'open source' and 'minor players' has been a lack of clear, concise information for the end user and while the product might be good, info regarding said product is often lacking.
> 
> You have somehow managed to cover even that tedious aspect of the design process!


I'd just like to second these remarks regarding Stephen's efforts to get his small lights to market. For someone utilising existing optics he has done an outstanding job and is a pleasure to deal with, even from halfway around the world! He's obviously technically adept but I think we are also seeing the positive results of a great deal of effort! For those interested, put your names on his list and start saving - it's worth the wait!

I note the comparative discussion of the Design Shine and Dinotte lights in this thread. I actually don't see them as competitors - they are significantly different in a number of ways, particularly in mounting options. It happens that the DS really suited my bike and my budget so that's what I went with. Although I've never seen or used a Dinotte, I reckon both are 'up there'.

I can also vouch for the marked impact of both the DS head and taillights on the daytime behaviours of drivers. You would have to be blind drunk or asleep to miss them!

Savvas


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MarkinKS said:


> ...I was hit by a car, uninsured, for the first time in over 50 years of riding, last November. It was a "left hook". I had my Dinotte 400R on, but no headlight, even though I had one. Late afternoon riding, I had gotten "too complacent". Fortunately, the car T-boned me, and I was heads-up enough to jump high and roll onto the hood and into the windshield. My Giro Ionos protected my head, while making a major "orb-weaver spider" crack in the drivers' windshield, and my shoulder did another set of cracks. Also hood dents. I was unable to ride for 6 weeks, and intimidated from riding for several more weeks. Anyway, I'm back to riding, now with a helmet light I'd put into the drawer. I'm riding with it again.
> 
> The DesignShine 500 is the brightest taillight on the market. But rear collisions aren't your only probem. New-tech car-mounted collision-warning systems are cool. But universal implementation is at least a decade away.


I have two weapons against the inattentive motorist ( daytime )...One is the strobe mode on my new Gloworm X2. ( 1200 lumen pulsing flash ) Very, very bright if I do say so. The only problem is that it takes a couple moments to turn on as it is a "special mode". That means no "Instant on feature". _ My second weapon though has this issue handled. _ I have a 5 mode XP-E torch on my helmet that has an excellent strobe mode ( about 300 lumen ) and it has a very tight beam. Very intense, I only use it for moments at a time. The good part is that it can be set for strobe and turned on/off at an instant.. Point your head at anything with this on and you WILL be seen. The only down side is that you have to take one hand off the bars to reach your head but it does only take a second to turn on.

I would like a third weapon though. A while back I started looking for an _electric bike horn _that could rival the horns that you hear on the VW's. Unfortunately I have not found anything that is small enough that will work. The Air horns they sell for bikes are too big and clunky. I'd like to see something about the size of a matchbox that you could easily mount under the stem or bars AND include a wired remote for fast access.
Batteries could be small as runtime is not an issue since a horn mostly sits idle till needed. Still, I want something that will make your skin crawl sitting in a car 100 ft. away!  Whoever can market a product like that will not only save 100's of lives a year but will likely become a millionaire.

Oh BTW, very good post and a very good story. You make some good points. Keep riding. Don't let the *astards win. :thumbsup:

(edit: Just had a thought. Some of the buzzers on smoke detectors are incredibly loud. Somewhere I have one sitting in a box waiting to be dismantled.  )


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## BritOnTour (Feb 17, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> A while back I started looking for an _electric bike horn _that could rival the horns that you hear on the VW's. Unfortunately I have not found anything that is small enough that will work. The Air horns they sell for bikes are too big and clunky. I'd like to see something about the size of a matchbox that you could easily mount under the stem or bars AND include a wired remote for fast access.
> Batteries could be small as runtime is not an issue since a horn mostly sits idle till needed. Still, I want something that will make your skin crawl sitting in a car 100 ft. away!  Whoever can market a product like that will not only save 100's of lives a year but will likely become a millionaire.
> 
> Oh BTW, very good post and a very good story. You make some good points. Keep riding. Don't let the *astards win. :thumbsup:
> ...


A while ago, I bought one of these horns from Dealextreme. Its so loud, I have not wanted to install it on my sons bike for fear of scaring the neighbours!!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

BritOnTour said:


> A while ago, I bought one of these horns from Dealextreme. Its so loud, I have not wanted to install it on my sons bike for fear of scaring the neighbours!!


I saw those on my first search a while ago but figured they were just toys. I did some searching last night on horns/buzzers. The loudest I was seeing was 109 db. *This one is 120 db so that has to be f 'n loud! * The product description lists it as playing "melodies". My question is,* " Does it just make a plain buzzing type alert noise"?* I don't want something that plays a song. It's also a little bigger than what I would want but it might be made smaller by re-housing it and using AAA's or one CR123 cell.


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## BritOnTour (Feb 17, 2011)

It plays different siren noises if I remember correctly. Kinda like, Police, fire & ambulance. i don't recall it playing any tunes at all. I haven't pressed the button in quite a while though, so just going on memory!!

You could certainly cut it down in size if needed by removing the lights on each side. its quite empty in there.


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

I've been waiting for my DesignShine lights since November, hopefully they will ship this month. I am very much looking forward to them as I feel they are the best daytime / nighttime combo out there today. 

As for a horn, I was born with a loud booming voice and a properly yelled "STOP!" has always had the intended effect. Works on pedestrians too.

- Roger


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

What's the latest on the lights  ?!!


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*Progress Update*



cda 455 said:


> What's the latest on the lights  ?!!


Hey "C"
Currently finishing up assembly on all the "build #2" hardware. All of that hardware is sold, and I only have a handful of units left to finish up and ship out. Thanks to some delays in the machine shop, I was able to work with George on the new programmable flash modes for the Maxflex and get those incorporated into build 2. In fact, I now have a custom "DesignShine" firmware load that pre-defines the flash modes, so they can always be restored by doing a system "reset."

The other new modification to allow the user to remove the lens cover and swap out lenses seems to work well. This allows a taillight that has been configured for vertical operation to easily be switched over to horizontal operation.

Also added a couple of offset mounting holes on the bottom of the headlight housing so it can be mounted closer to the center-line of the stem.

I had strapped the lights to the top of my son's RC truck so I could drive it around and get some impressions on how I liked the patterns. Here's a short video of that setup and a demo of the preferred nighttime flash modes for the head and tail.

DesignShine_Flash_Patterns.mp4 - YouTube

Here's also a table describing the new modes, excerpted from the user's manual.

I'm working on getting a limited number of new housings for build #3. Probably on the order of 35 taillights and 15 headlights (although the ratio may end up changing). Then that will be all for 2012. I'll probably work on building up some stock after that (slowly) and maybe do a "limited edition" for 2013.


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## AWDfreak (Jan 28, 2007)

Any news? And my gosh, I can't believe I haven't found this thread yet...

Also, it seems you have sold out all the stock


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## savvas (Mar 21, 2011)

Hi AWDfreak,

Aspirations to DesignShine ownership inevitably means you need to wait. It's a Dharma thing! Pethelman can explain.

It's worth it of course! You get a tiny matchbox sized thing that rival an aircraft landing light. But as I've indicated, spiritual preparation is required...

Savvas (glowing in the dark!)


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

AWDfreak said:


> Any news? And my gosh, I can't believe I haven't found this thread yet...
> 
> Also, it seems you have sold out all the stock


Well, yes and no.... but first, a bit of history.

This last year I took the opportunity to make some nice refinements to the housings and work with George a little bit on the new programmable flash pattern capability on the MaxFlex driver. The housing updates required switching to a full CNC process vs. traditional machining techniques. Finding a shop in the US to do the work at a price point that was realistic in low quantities (less than 200) was an exercise in futility... that is until a cyclist and machinist-extraordinaire from California contacted me about the lights and offered some sample pieces (thanks Robert!). Long story short, there were a lot of setup pains and delays involved since he was in the middle of moving his shop equipment. Meanwhile, I was taking reserve orders as we were waiting to start cutting metal. Eventually, I had to make a determination on a final quantity and cut-off the order taking process.

So at this point in time (Nov 2012), I'm actually right in the middle of the build process for that set of hardware (104 taillights and 36 headlights). So you can see, for some of the folks who are actually now receiving the hardware, it's been quite an unusually long wait. Because I still have the last half of the 2012 reserve list to go through, there may be a few orders that drop out as I make contact with folks to re-confirm. Consequently, I'm still putting together an "alternates" list of names to jump in and fill any of those spots that may become available.

For any future production (which is TBD at this point), I will definitely pre-assemble all of the hardware and have it ready to go before I announce it's availability, although I may need to hold a few sets of hardware back for custom jobs.

Thanks so much to everybody who's had to wait so long to finally get their orders filled!


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## AWDfreak (Jan 28, 2007)

Thanks for the reply!

I'm glad that there's the small crowd that cares about being SEEN (especially with crazy vehicular traffic). As someone mentioned previously, the light companies are busy with the headlight lumens wars, while the taillights are left as an afterthought.

Finding this thread was quite a relief that someone has put traffic safety as a high priority. Seeing at night is great, but it's pointless if the cars flying past won't notice and possibly injure/kill another cyclist.


Keep up the good work! I greatly appreciate the hard work you do! (I'll get around to ordering a taillight someday, broke from spending on parts on bikes though)


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*Updated Build 3 DS-500 Picture*

Thanks "AWD," you're too kind...

Selfishly, I started out building this light for my own safety, but once I saw how good it was, I just had to make a few more. Wish I had the capability of making a lot of them at a lower price, because I really do believe they could help prevent a senseless accident. I haven't posted this picture very much yet, but here's a shot of the new taillight, showing the lower-profile integrated lid. And yes, for any of the DIYers out there working with the triples, those are custom made clear silicon o-rings that you see around the edge of the lenses. Had to order 1000 of them just to get my hands on them.... Dooooh!:madman:


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## NewNRS3 (May 10, 2008)

I am hoping there is a chance of seeing a few more produced between now and next Summer, either way I need to get on the waiting list soon.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

NewNRS3 said:


> I am hoping there is a chance of seeing a few more produced between now and next Summer, either way I need to get on the waiting list soon.


There may not be a future waiting list  .

I inquired as well. The response wasn't promising.

I'll W.A.G. and say Stephen would probably have to double the price in order to make it worth his while. Maybe higher.

It's hard to compete with the Chinese!


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## NewNRS3 (May 10, 2008)

Given he seems to be the only source for something this bright maybe he will reconsider one more batch - I would prefer one of his but I guess if worse comes to worse I will have to buy another Dinotte. Thank you for the information!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

cda 455 said:


> I'll W.A.G. and say Stephen would probably have to double the price in order to make it worth his while. Maybe higher.
> 
> It's hard to compete with the Chinese!


No doubt there will be a price increase if he is having the lamp body CNC'd ( Machining process controlled by computer ) but don't think in a moment you can compare the completed product of the "DesignShine" to that of a standard Chinese ( or American ) made bike light _that is assembled on an assemble line._

A person who does what Pethelman does creates his product out of a labor of love much the same way a person who creates a custom bike frame creates his product. While money is made it is not the primary focus of the builder. This is very clear when you consider that he hand assembles every lamp and tests each one to make sure it works.

The catch is that if you want to buy something built to this quality you have to be willing to place an advanced order and be willing to wait a GOOD LONG TIME.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> No doubt there will be a price increase if he is having the lamp body CNC'd ( Machining process controlled by computer ) but don't think in a moment you can compare the completed product of the "DesignShine" to that of a standard Chinese ( or American ) made bike light _that is assembled on an assemble line._
> 
> A person who does what Pethelman does creates his product out of a labor of love much the same way a person who creates a custom bike frame creates his product. While money is made it is not the primary focus of the builder. This is very clear when you consider that he hand assembles every lamp and tests each one to make sure it works.
> 
> The catch is that if you want to buy something built to this quality you have to be willing to place an advanced order and be willing to wait a GOOD LONG TIME.


You're correct on a lot of fronts here Cat... I hope to turn another batch, perhaps early summer, but I probably won't do a pre-order wait list. Likely will just take my time and get the batch complete and make available on a first come, first serve basis...at least for the taillight.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

Cat-man-do said:


> No doubt there will be a price increase if he is having the lamp body CNC'd ( Machining process controlled by computer ) but don't think in a moment you can compare the completed product of the "DesignShine" to that of a standard Chinese ( or American ) made bike light _that is assembled on an assemble line._
> 
> A person who does what Pethelman does creates his product out of a labor of love much the same way a person who creates a custom bike frame creates his product. While money is made it is not the primary focus of the builder. This is very clear when you consider that he hand assembles every lamp and tests each one to make sure it works.
> 
> The catch is that if you want to buy something built to this quality you have to be willing to place an advanced order and be willing to wait a GOOD LONG TIME.


Yeah, good points there.


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## cda 455 (Aug 9, 2010)

pethelman said:


> You're correct on a lot of fronts here Cat... I hope to turn another batch, perhaps early summer, but I probably won't do a pre-order wait list. Likely will just take my time and get the batch complete and make available on a first come, first serve basis...at least for the taillight.


That's definitely good news!


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## mtbRevolution (Aug 10, 2012)

*WOW Lights*

I've finally seen this light in person and it most certainly lives up to the hype. Here's a bike light seller wishing he had one of these babies. A lot of thought has gone into this light. There is no doubt you will be seen in the day with this light.

If "nasty rumors" are true that Stephen may stop building these DS lights, it will be a massive loss to the night riding community. These rear lights are worth every cent when you compare them to high end lights. So support this guy if he needs to increase the price a little to keep the brightest rear light on Earth going. I will put my order in if Stephen will commit to at least another 3 more builds.

Attaching pic of size comparison of the DS and Geinea rear light. Bikes on the street is approximately 140 meters - DS500 is on the left.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

Any updates. I need one!!!


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

penthelman if you're reading what i would really like is a light that has a sort of a "high" beam for day use and a "low" beam for night use. i would like both to be maximum brightness but the "low" beam should be wide and without a hot spot. the "high" beam should be narrow and with a bright hot spot. and i should be able to use either one or both.

your light has a beam designed for both day and night use. dinotte has separate day and night lights in 400R and 400R daytime red ( which is brighter but narrower than 400R ) but what would really be awesome is the ability to simply switch the mode on the light. 

so for example have 4 LEDs on spot optic and 4 LEDs on flood optic, and separate drivers for them.

that would be way cool !


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

androgen said:


> penthelman if you're reading what i would really like is a light that has a sort of a "high" beam for day use and a "low" beam for night use. i would like both to be maximum brightness but the "low" beam should be wide and without a hot spot. the "high" beam should be narrow and with a bright hot spot. and i should be able to use either one or both.
> 
> your light has a beam designed for both day and night use. dinotte has separate day and night lights in 400R and 400R daytime red ( which is brighter but narrower than 400R ) but what would really be awesome is the ability to simply switch the mode on the light.
> 
> ...


Interesting thought. It could also be a cluster of different types of LEDs that are designed for throw and spill as well as the optics you mentioned.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

Hey guys,
Love the way you think.... 
Yes, I agree, a mode-specific beam pattern would be super cool. However, it would require a total re-design on the driver and/or the topology of the light. In practice, the combination spot/elliptical really does make a nice beam pattern, day or night.

The feature of the DS-500 that makes the light usable at night is that the control electronics can remain stable down to very low driving currents. In fact, the lowest power mode (designated the "limp home" mode) only drives about 70 milli-amps through the LEDs. At this extremely low power consumption, the perceived brightness is similar to the 3W Magicshine taillight, but at a fraction of the power consumption.

The other factor is the extremely efficient wide-angle (but flat) dispersion of the elliptical lens. It makes a nearly constant output across roughly 45 degrees. When you take into account all of the "spill" light that gets broadcast through the lens cover, the taillight is highly visible at night from practically any angle, even when viewed from 45 degrees facing the FRONT of the bike.

I'm pretty sure I posted this image somewhere else on the boards, but just for comparison take a look at this shot showing both the DS-500 and the 400R on HIGH and pointed at a white fence at night from about 15 feet away. Each one of the fence sections is about 8 feet.

What you see is that in addition to the penetrating hot spot, you also get a very wide beam with very little wasted light. In real life, the difference between the two lights is much more striking. Accurately capturing pure red is very hard in general, but at night it's especially tough and almost never conveys a "real world" approximation of what your eyes actually see. The center hot spot is starting to "saturate" the camera, although to the naked eye, it looks light the same "color" red as at the wide angles. The artifact from the camera makes it appear "yellow."

DS-500 top
400R bottom








The much bigger problem for me at this point is that I can't continue to make these lights myself. They're inherently time-consuming to build and with a full time engineering job and young family, the extra hours just aren't there right now. As all of my customers can attest, the wait times for me to get these things built can be agonizingly long. I've got about 25 more left to build, and since I started this crazy idea almost 3 years ago, I've managed to put only about 250 lights into the hands of a few cyclists all over the world.

If I were to continue building these lights, I'd have to get some help AND try to re-vamp the design to be a little more friendly for manufacturing, but still, there's just no getting around them being expensive with everything built in the USA. I almost laugh when I see the Chinese light sets selling for 50 bucks, when I pay almost that much just for my bare housing!

One thing for sure...the community of cyclists out there looking to put a light like this on their bikes is made up of some of the nicest folks you'd ever want to meet. I hope I can continue to pursue this venture again at some point in the future... and yes, I've already built the next generation version (80 to 1000 pure RED lumens) in the same form factor, just to keep in my back pocket. If I manage to keep doing this at some point in the future, it will be the taillight only, and it will be sold as the light-head only, to be used with any pre-existing and readily available li-ion 7.4V (nominal) battery pack.

Cheers


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Turn this puppy into a kick starter project and let's get production ramped into high gear.


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## steelhmr (Sep 30, 2011)

I had the pleasure of seeing a DS-500 in person a few months ago. It completely changed the way I look at tail lights. So for every customer that they reach directly, there are thousands more they reach indirectly. Keep up the good work, when you can.


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

pethelman said:


> and yes, I've already built the next generation version (80 to 1000 pure RED lumens) in the same form factor, just to keep in my back pocket. If I manage to keep doing this at some point in the future, it will be the taillight only, and it will be sold as the light-head only, to be used with any pre-existing and readily available li-ion 7.4V (nominal) battery pack.
> 
> Cheers


nice !

maybe you can get Dinotte to manufacture, sell and service your lights as well as equip them with their batteries, chargers and mounts. simply have them pay you something like 20% of the sale price for design and engineering.

as "out there" as your light is, it is still more practical than their Daytime Red ( which can't even be used at night, according to THEM ) so i don't think they would refuse the offer based on the light being not marketable.


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## Gharddog03 (Sep 25, 2013)

cue003 said:


> Turn this puppy into a kick starter project and let's get production ramped into high gear.


X2. Lol


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## purifier82 (Oct 13, 2013)

I've subscribed to this forum just exclusively to say this, YES, make a Kickstarter project for the 80/1000 lumen with a cheaper price than the Dinotte Daytime Red, I guarantee you that you'll sell at least a 1'000 pieces in less than one month


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## androgen (Apr 28, 2005)

purifier82 said:


> I've subscribed to this forum just exclusively to say this, YES, make a Kickstarter project for the 80/1000 lumen with a cheaper price than the Dinotte Daytime Red, I guarantee you that you'll sell at least a 1'000 pieces in less than one month


Daytime Red is $259 complete with 4 cell battery, charger, mounting hardware with quick release mechanism and shipping. Gloworm X2 is a comparable light in terms of the type of housing that it uses and the size of battery and it costs $260 which is exactly the same. I don't see the reason why DS-500 should be cheaper than those two if it is also sold as a complete system ( as opposed to just a light head ).

Red Zone 8 is a far more mainstream light which can be used by anybody from skaters to roller skaters to joggers to bikers to people walking their dog etc and it still costs $150.

DS-500 is really targeted mostly at recumbent bicycles which really need that kind of power ( because nobody sees them ) and a few cyclists who want daytime visibility. as such it is a niche product and a higher price is to be expected.

just my opinion.


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## purifier82 (Oct 13, 2013)

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely didn't want to cheapen the product quality of Stephen's tech marvel, I only wished that with a kickstarter style campaign (in a few words, receiveng a couple hundred thousand dollars upfront from the backers, to buy/loan machines and pay workers) he could produce them as an almost industrial level, so for something like 1/10 of the time and the component price 

Ps:I wanted to buy a ds-500 a few months ago, but they're never in stock...


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## adams22 (Aug 4, 2017)

hi 


I am interested to get a housings ds-500 ? is there any chance and you still have it to sell for me .thanks adam


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## adams22 (Aug 4, 2017)

I like yours clarification ,thanks


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