# Riders of e-bikes get as much exercise



## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

This surprised me.

But it explains that riders of e-bikes tend to make more trips and longer trips, so in the end

Physical activity levels, measured in Metabolic Equivalent Task minutes per week (MET min/wk), were similar among e-bikers and cyclists (4463 vs. 4085). E-bikers reported significantly longer trip distances for both e-bike (9.4 km) and bicycle trips (8.4 km) compared to cyclists for bicycle trips (4.8 km), as well as longer daily travel distances for e-bike than cyclists for bicycle (8.0 vs. 5.3 km per person, per day, respectively).​
https://www.treehugger.com/bikes/st...s-get-much-exercise-riders-regular-bikes.html


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## shreddr (Oct 10, 2009)

No surprise, my heart rate is the same, analog or digital, just the speed is different 


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

shreddr said:


> No surprise, my heart rate is the same, analog or digital, just the speed is different
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The study seemed to suggest that e-bike riders got as much exercise as cyclists because they went further distances, it would be interesting to see comparative heart rate data. I don't have that much experience with e-bikes but I know I could eat an ice cream cone while climbing a 12% grade on one and there isn't a gear low enough to allow me to do the same on a bicycle. Guess it all depends on how you attack it.

The results don't surprise me either, if electric bikes can help more people get off their @sses that's great by me.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

shreddr said:


> No surprise, my heart rate is the same, analog or digital, just the speed is different
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have no idea what you just said. Analog? digital?

What weirdness is this?


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## shreddr (Oct 10, 2009)

Radium said:


> I have no idea what you just said. Analog? digital?
> 
> What weirdness is this?


I'm trend setting, sit tight you'll get it 

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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

I mean, maybe. It makes sense but it's gotta be HIGHLY dependent on the person. Some people will choose to use the motor assist to spend the same amount of energy to go further/faster. Others will choose to go the same distance/speed and just spend less energy. And everything in between.

I love my e-bike, but I detest these threads that seem to be variations on "See?!? E-bikes aren't for lazy people! The internet said so!"


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

shreddr said:


> No surprise, my heart rate is the same, analog or digital, just the speed is different
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not the results Bicycling magazine got when they tested an emtb ridden by a 3 time olympic cyclist, "almost 20 bpm lower" on the ebike while still completing a 5 mile single track loop 4:17 faster.

And you need to learn the definition of "analog". I wouldn't say ebikes are "digital" either, they may use digital circuitry in their controllers but then we might as well say gasoline cars and motorcycles are digital as well.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

My heartbeat is lower on my emtb in even eco mode. Usually around 125bpm. You don’t really get into the anaerobic threshold unless you are pushing hard or not using power. The spikes aren’t as drastic. If I’m riding for exercise, I’ll ride my Roubaix.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

chazpat said:


> Not the results Bicycling magazine got when they tested an emtb ridden by a 3 time olympic cyclist, "almost 20 bpm lower" on the ebike while still completing a 5 mile single track loop 4:17 faster.
> 
> And you need to learn the definition of "analog". I wouldn't say ebikes are "digital" either, they may use digital circuitry in their controllers but then we might as well say gasoline cars and motorcycles are digital as well.


Most of the time on my ebike, my heart rate is around 10 to 20bpm lower than on my other bike. 
Times when my ebike matches my other bike is most downhills, my heart rate is racing, my quads aching just like my other bike. When out with other ebikers, my heart rate soars.

Just like anything else, it's about effort one puts out. I bet if that 3 time Olympic cyclist was out with other strong ebike riders, his heart rate would have been up there! Or tell him to do it 5:17 faster.

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## shreddr (Oct 10, 2009)

chazpat said:


> Not the results Bicycling magazine got when they tested an emtb ridden by a 3 time olympic cyclist, "almost 20 bpm lower" on the ebike while still completing a 5 mile single track loop 4:17 faster.


This is meaningless, all it says is the riders limit then became the speed he could control the bike at not his heart rate, I also don't profess to be an Olympic cyclist. Thanks for the clarification between analog and digital it's always good to have a genius around to keep people accurate


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

ride an ebike for awhile, then hop on a regular bike. i think it speaks for itself which is more of a workout.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

shreddr said:


> This is meaningless, all it says is the riders limit then became the speed he could control the bike at not his heart rate, I also don't profess to be an Olympic cyclist. Thanks for the clarification between analog and digital it's always good to have a genius around to keep people accurate


I think it's probably fair to say that *most* people probably run lower heart rates on an electric bike than they would on a pedal bike, ime that's exactly why a lot of people buy them. No big deal.

I'm sure many people get a lot more exercise with e-bikes than bicycles because they'll ride them more, sometimes a lot more. I've talked to people who had pretty much given up on bicycles (too hilly, too hard) and a little electricity got them back out there.

I think infrastructure is at least as important as e-bikes to entice people out of their cars, maybe more so.


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## rorhound (Aug 23, 2013)

mtbbiker said:


> Most of the time on my ebike, my heart rate is around 10 to 20bpm lower than on my other bike.
> Times when my ebike matches my other bike is most downhills, my heart rate is racing, my quads aching just like my other bike. When out with other ebikers, my heart rate soars.
> 
> Just like anything else, it's about effort one puts out. I bet if that 3 time Olympic cyclist was out with other strong ebike riders, his heart rate would have been up there! Or tell him to do it 5:17 faster.
> ...


^^^^^^^ This.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

nilswalk said:


> I mean, maybe. It makes sense but it's gotta be HIGHLY dependent on the person. Some people will choose to use the motor assist to spend the same amount of energy to go further/faster. Others will choose to go the same distance/speed and just spend less energy. And everything in between.
> 
> I love my e-bike, but I detest these threads that seem to be variations on "See?!? E-bikes aren't for lazy people! The internet said so!"


I had read these threads before, but when I actually got an ebike I got to experience it. On the pedal bike, I have to pedal as hard as I can just to make it up the steep parts. On the eibke, I don't have to, but if I pedal hard it goes FAST. I find myself pedaling hard a lot more than I expected to.



chazpat said:


> I wouldn't say ebikes are "digital" either, they may use digital circuitry in their controllers but then we might as well say gasoline cars and motorcycles are digital as well.


Digital enough so I had to update the firmware on it, and have to wait for it to boot up before riding it.
On the British ebike site they refer to non-e bikes as "clockwork bikes".


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Pro exercise = poor
In my area i never see a rider pushing a car to the trails.
In your area?


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

shreddr said:


> I'm trend setting, sit tight you'll get it
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you sure? Seems to me you are just using this as a shill phrase for ebikes and ebike access.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I’ve been riding ebikes since 2016, some of y’all a lot longer. I own 4 Turbo Eroad bikes, a new Levo and last years Focus. Been mtbing and road biking since 1990. What they offer is choices. I’m 48 and in decent shape, For me, the Ebike turns every ride into a non- sufferfest, I get that on my Roubaix. For “me” it’s just fun and a cool rip. I ride as fast as my group goes, period. When I’m solo I get a better workout because there’s no need to stop. They are fun, but mtbs are fun also. To each his own. If your goal is to be completely physically challenged, stick with a regular mtb, road bike OR rip the emtb greater distances. I know you can get pretty spent riding an emtb all day. It’s a much greater upper body workout, and on the long technical downs, it’ll wear you out.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I got even more of a workout on an ebike, because I didn't feel a need to hold back, knowing I had a battery to assist if I did "blow up". Without battery power, I notice that I'm quite conservative with my pacing, ensuring my energy lasts throughout the ride. I'd conserve to the point that my ride is merely a ride (for fun), rather than anything that would resemble training. 

With the e-bike, I can better choose what I train for, using the battery to sort of skip what I consider a poor use of my time, like stretches of paved road. The power levels meant that I could choose my own intensity levels, for whatever pace I wanted to train at. Can go out without any excuses, like needing to recover, not well prepared for a ride (fed/hydrated, geared up), or whatever other insecurity I have.

Problem is that ebike geo is quite flawed, and there's the issue of training specificity. Can't transfer ebike training over completely--it's as silly as expecting to be able to BMX well after training on an XC-marathon bike spinning out 40+ mile rides.

Frankly, all the issues pertaining ebikes seem to be personal responsibility and discipline ones. People just don't feel comfortable trusting others to wield more power, esp when it can affect them, at least if they aren't vetted.


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## shreddr (Oct 10, 2009)

dundundata said:


> ride an ebike for awhile, then hop on a regular bike. i think it speaks for itself which is more of a workout.


I got one brother, and I love it

BTW, I run the same heart rate ebike or standard, the only difference is the average speed. If you have the bike handling skills you will know what I mean.

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> I got even more of a workout on an ebike, because I didn't feel a need to hold back, knowing I had a battery to assist if I did "blow up". Without battery power, I notice that I'm quite conservative with my pacing, ensuring my energy lasts throughout the ride. I'd conserve to the point that my ride is merely a ride (for fun), rather than anything that would resemble training.


I do interval training at least once or twice a week and it's a love/hate relationship. I like to work into it and start hitting them hard somewhere around half way through a ride but sometimes I'll get antsy and start gunning it right away, 100% full gas efforts followed by brief respite and then repeat as necessary. I've discovered over time that it's as much about overcoming mental barriers as it is physical ones, maybe more so. Learning to embrace pain is part of the process, it hurts so bad in the moment but feels so euphoric afterwards.

At any rate I've managed to make it back to my house or car under my own power every time so far no matter how deep I dig.

A lot of people don't enjoy that sort of suffering and who can blame them? It goes against most everyone's common sense, that's why they're likely to get more exercise if they own an e-bike than they would if they owned a bicycle.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

So take the same rider, same 10 mile ride. Going to tell me it's the same workout? Hmmm.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

leeboh said:


> So take the same rider, same 10 mile ride. Going to tell me it's the same workout? Hmmm.


No but that's not what the study suggested. It concluded that most people rode further on an electric bike than on a bicycle, thus making them more or less equal as far as exercise goes. Makes sense to me.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

leeboh said:


> So take the same rider, same 10 mile ride. Going to tell me it's the same workout? Hmmm.


Considering all the variables you left open it's entirely possible, but as stated that's not what was said.

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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

leeboh said:


> So take the same rider, same 10 mile ride. Going to tell me it's the same workout? Hmmm.


Who are you referring to with your response.... from what I've read so far, there wasn't a comparison of the same course mentioned until you did. However possible, it is not what is mentioned.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Take the same rider, same 10 mile ride. I'm going to tell you it's always going to be different even on a different brand bicycle. You can literally make a bicycle be a reverse ebike, one that adds resistance, rather than assistance. Going from tires that add 90W total of drag to tires that only add 50W of total drag, could feel like eco mode on a class 1 ebike, sort of.

Dunno why people get caught up with such simplistic logic. It's like trollbait. Thread derails into pointing out how stupid the fallacy can get, like showing the faults in dundundata's troll logical fallacy, regarding the better workout, suggesting singlespeeders get as much exercise as geared mtb riders, or hardtail riders get as much exercise as FS riders.

I dunno if the gist is supposed to be hard to understand, but isn't it basically gauging exercise as intensity over time, rather than comparing metrics like mileage? Seems to imply things like riders having habits and comfort zones that they tend to settle into. Seems there's fear such habits degenerate further with ebikes.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I hope we are all enjoying whatever we ride 😀


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> No but that's not what the study suggested. It concluded that most people rode further on an electric bike than on a bicycle, thus making them more or less equal as far as exercise goes. Makes sense to me.


 Bingo! Not that complicated really.


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## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

I call them "unassisted" when referring to bikes without electric motors, and e-bikes for those with them.

Don't care about exercise, but it happens when I'm riding my e-bike. It wouldn't be happening at all if I didn't have one, since I don't really enjoy riding the unassisted ones. I'd just be another hiker slowing you all down.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

leeboh said:


> So take the same rider, same 10 mile ride. Going to tell me it's the same workout? Hmmm.


It's not the same workout, but it's a workout.

Scenario 1:
The said rider rides the 10-mile course and works as hard as he would on a normal bike. He/she will be done in way less time.

Scenario 2:
The said rider rides at a mostly lower effort level at any given point...........but gets 2 laps in (20 miles) vs the 10 miles.

Recovery Scenario: 
The said rider uses lower effort and just does 10 miles. It's a recovery day. He then has a post ride beer and contemplates carbon vs aluminum rims.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

ziscwg said:


> It's not the same workout, but it's a workout.
> 
> Scenario 1:
> The said rider rides the 10-mile course and works as hard as he would on a normal bike. He/she will be done in way less time.
> ...


Except for "recovery scenario", neither of first two scenarios means same workout. It would be same workout if you would combine scenario 1 and scenario 2, which means works as hard as he would on normal bike and would get 2 laps on ebike in same time as 1 on normal bike. 
Mileage doesn't matter in connection with effort, time at certain effort does.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Did any of you actually read the article before you proceeded to argue about heart rate? It references city riding in Europe; i.e., people riding for utility or transportation purposes. Not sure how it applies to MTB, but hey, have at it.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Canoe said:


> This surprised me.
> 
> But it explains that riders of e-bikes tend to make more trips and longer trips, so in the end
> 
> ...


I think that the study can mostly be explained as selection bias. The two of us at work who were the most consistent bicycle commuters are now riding eBikes. Another contributing factor is that once you have the eBike, it's easier to ride more consistently, especially in the heat. I've dropped my rule of not riding if the heat index forecast is above 105 degrees F.; I can ride through the hottest weeks of summer without gradually becoming physically debilitated.

Mountain biking in the heat with an eBike is much more pleasant - it's pretty demotivating to get up at oh-dark-thirty to ride at a 90 degree temperature; I can do that on my eBike without frying my brain; cranking up the assist level to get a little extra breeze does wonders for that overheating problem.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Canoe said:


> This surprised me.
> 
> But it explains that riders of e-bikes tend to make more trips and longer trips, so in the end
> 
> ...


I saw this article in the news this weekend and read it pretty carefully. I agree with everything they say but what they didn't say was for a comparable distance, time, or route an ebike rider gets more exercise than a bike rider. It says that ebike riders ride their bikes more, mostly because many of them transfer from not riding a bike for commuting or errands to riding to work and using their ebikes instead of comparable methods of ICE transportation. Since they have an ebike they will preferentially use it instead of taking the car, bus, train, etc. This equates to more exercise than many cyclists get because most cyclists will swap to a vehicle when distance or convenience or time becomes a factor, issues that the ebike, especially, solves.

I appreciate this study for what it shows and for, hopefully, its impact on getting people out of cars and onto bikes but it is disingenuous in its title and it's clickbait. As a 120 mile per week bike commuter I can guarantee you my fitness would not benefit from adding e to my bike. It would lessen the time I spent on my bike which would be a bonus, and maybe I could balance out the less activity of the shorter, assisted ride, with additional errands and more riding, but to increase my fitness benefit this way I would have offset any time with my family gains I made using the ebike. I would be on my bike longer to make up this fitness deficit which would make me ask the question of why am not just riding my bike instead, spending less time on it for the fitness benefit, and time in traffic.

Take this article with a grain of salt and read it for what it is. If you spend more time and have more time to spend an ebike will give you a better fitness method than not riding or selectively riding your bike but if your time is limited and you don't/can't ride to the trailhead or have time to running more errands then this is not the magic fitness device you imagine and this article paints it as.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

Troll logic? This thread wasn't about heart rate only. You definitely get more of a workout on a regular bike, you use way more muscles.


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## kneecap (Dec 20, 2003)

Yup Hikerdave, same for me. Where I live mostly too hot very early, so, without my ebike, I wouldn't go out regularly on my fossil bike at all. Extra breeze is great !


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

Allow me to summarize the article and the entire thread:

"People in general seem to spend more time on their e-bikes than they would otherwise have spent on their regular bikes.".


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

I reckon the older generation riding e-bikes will get more exersize. They would otherwise be not be riding at all. So at least they are getting out. 

If i had am e-bike the exersize would be the same or more. I would treat the flats and up as downs and just roost from start to finish. Now i cruise the up and smash the down becuase thats what i love doing. The ebike make the flat and up like a down so i would just smash 100% of the ride.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> I saw this article in the news this weekend and read it pretty carefully. I agree with everything they say but what they didn't say was for a comparable distance, time, or route an ebike rider gets more exercise than a bike rider. It says that ebike riders ride their bikes more, mostly because many of them transfer from not riding a bike for commuting or errands to riding to work and using their ebikes instead of comparable methods of ICE transportation. Since they have an ebike they will preferentially use it instead of taking the car, bus, train, etc. This equates to more exercise than many cyclists get because most cyclists will swap to a vehicle when distance or convenience or time becomes a factor, issues that the ebike, especially, solves.
> 
> I appreciate this study for what it shows and for, hopefully, its impact on getting people out of cars and onto bikes but it is disingenuous in its title and it's clickbait. As a 120 mile per week bike commuter I can guarantee you my fitness would not benefit from adding e to my bike. It would lessen the time I spent on my bike which would be a bonus, and maybe I could balance out the less activity of the shorter, assisted ride, with additional errands and more riding, but to increase my fitness benefit this way I would have offset any time with my family gains I made using the ebike. I would be on my bike longer to make up this fitness deficit which would make me ask the question of why am not just riding my bike instead, spending less time on it for the fitness benefit, and time in traffic.
> 
> Take this article with a grain of salt and read it for what it is. If you spend more time and have more time to spend an ebike will give you a better fitness method than not riding or selectively riding your bike but if your time is limited and you don't/can't ride to the trailhead or have time to running more errands then this is not the magic fitness device you imagine and this article paints it as.


Well said, this topic was discussed before to the same outcome.

It is very situational. I can also get as much "exercise" by walking 30 miles a day as I would if I ran 5 miles a day...... Just riding an eBike does not equate to the same "exercise" as a pedal bike unless you can actually pull heart rate data from both activities.

I currently only have time to ride once a week. I have a 1.5-2 hour window and I ride my Intense Spider 275 (not an eBike) on an average of 8-9 miles, roughly 1000 feet of elevation gain. This is pretty much the same each week. I have been doing this for a number of years.

About 2 years ago I started taking my son with me. He is currently 39lbs and has been for a year now. He rides on my bike using a device called the MAC-Ride. My average has dropped to about 6-8 miles and 700-800 feet of gain. I am going less distance, but my Heart Rate is higher and my climbing speed is slower. I have not done Heart Rate metrics, but with pushing less miles and elevation I am still getting a similar amount of "exercise" because I am working harder in that same time window.

If I had purchased an eBike and did not have my son on the bike, I would probably be covering more ground during that time window and probably be getting similar "exercise" if I really pushed it. That said, I ride with a group, none of them have eBikes and it is a no man left behind style ride, so getting an eBike just for that one ride per week would mean less "exercise" as I would still only be doing 10 miles and 1000 feet of gain in that time window.

Exercise is all about what you put into it, the heart rate has to be up and the activity needs to be regular.

If I lived closer to work I would sell my Motorcycle and purchase a commuter eBike. If I went from riding a moto to work every day to a pedelec eBike I would increase my exercise by quite a bit, if I sold the moto and rode a regular pedal bike for that same commute the amount of exercise would be even higher......


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

nilswalk said:


> Allow me to summarize the article and the entire thread:
> 
> "People in general seem to spend more time on their e-bikes than they would otherwise have spent on their regular bikes.".


this makes sense, ebikes are a ton of fun and as long as there is juice in the battery tank no need to stop. a regular bike can make you sore big time and you might not feel like riding for a few days.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Now hold on a second, not only is this totally false, but anyone with a elementary education is going to see that an assist does not lead to "more" exercise.

Sure, I can use assist to sustain an equally high aerobic/anarobic level, but I wouldn't cuz there's no need. When I ride my wife's ebike, it's so I can climb hills that are ridiculous on a non ebike or to run a shuttle faster.

I can go out far longer and far harder on a non ebike, multi days, so waaay longer than any battery could last, and I can more easilly push my self. 

If anything, this ^ is the key: I can more easilly achieve an anaerobic threshold without assist. 

Ebikes make it easier, e=easy, so let's not pull the wool over our eyes and start telling ourselves stories.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Seems there's a few people who need to do some reading before knee-jerk posting. So many refuting claims that were never made.

The article was about a study's results, and possible implications.



rockcrusher said:


> ... it is disingenuous in its title and it's clickbait. ...


Bull. Shame on you after your actually reading the article.

The study started with, and included, measuring an observed behaviour, which they reported in"Metabolic Equivalent Task minutes per week", from the sample of over 10,000 participants in seven European cities. They reported their "insights", including:

e-bike riders typically end up using their bikes more than non-assisted bike riders, so they get a similar amount of exercise, and
data suggests that e-bike use leads to substantial increases in physical activity in e-bikers switching from private motorized vehicle and public transport, while net losses in physical activity in e-bikers switching from cycling were much less due to increases in overall travel distance.
Comparing the MET min/wk of e-bikers' 4463 vs. cyclists' 4085, while technically e-bikers results are 378 (9.25%) higher than cyclists, they did not find that statistically significant (you don't see the headline "E-bikers get more exercise") and refer to those results as "similar". So "get as much exercise" is characteristic of the results, is not misleading and is not disingenuous. Technically, "gets as much as" understates the numbers "gets more than", but reasonably presents the study's characterization of "similar". Surely that representation of "similar" can't be characterized as disingenuous. Only apparently it can.

In his article, Loyd Alter writes about various musing from the study results & insights and about how they could affect some aspects of society's behaviour, including if more ICE drivers here switched to e-bike use, with some numbers for such. He also mentions that the study covers e-bikes in Europe, which are not typical compared to many of the e-bikes we use North America. He wrote "There is so much to unpack from this study.", so perhaps he'll share more insight in the future.

There are no magical claims as to heart rate, same or better exercise per hour or exercise per distance. Simply that similar exercise was obtained, as they travelled farther and more often.

As to digital vs. analog. The article pointed out that when discussing e-bikes, someone had coined "analog bike" as a term for non-assisted bikes. Plenty of e-bikes don't use any digital tech. Some Bosch riders working to get their software upgraded may not be aware of that. 
"a-bike" would be handy for "analog bike", but could be confused with "assisted bike".

E-Bikes are a Gateway Bike!
I find it interesting how often we see returning former riders or new riders getting e-bikes, and a year or so down the line, they're spending the same, more, or significantly more, on a non-assisted bike for fun on the weekend.

And due to the weather where I live, a large percentage of e-bikes on the road are e-MTB. I'm very jealous of various e-MTBs I've seen, compared to my e-POS.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I just wish ebikers would stop referring to non-ebikes as analog bikes, clockwork bikes, fossils bikes etc. These terms are just sly marketing to try to make bicycles look old and outdated and ebikes new and "the future". In other words, propaganda to accomplish an agenda. If you don't think people are easily fooled with marketing, just ask someone who is against Obama Care if think the Affordable Care Act is a better alternative.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> ... I can go out far longer and far harder on a non ebike, multi days, so waaay longer than any battery could last, and I can more easilly push my self. ...
> 
> If anything, this ^ is the key: I can more easilly achieve an anaerobic threshold without assist.
> 
> Ebikes make it easier, e=easy, so let's not pull the wool over our eyes and start telling ourselves stories.


Sure, but of their sample of 10,000 people, where do you think you fit on a performance scale for those riders. You'd be easily in the top 5%, if not higher. 
The study shows what happened across an average of 10,000 riders. And that with their usage, the e-bike riders got "similar" (actually more) exercise as cyclists each week. 
It does NOT show which would be the best choice if you were a fit person trying to get your exercise in, nor does it claim to.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

chazpat said:


> I just wish ebikers would stop referring to non-ebikes as analog bikes, clockwork bikes, fossils bikes etc. ... In other words, propaganda to accomplish an agenda. ...


I'm fortunate in that I've only seen them used for humour, so far. 
I don't like _analog bikes_, nor _fossil bikes_ (first I've heard that), but _clockwork bikes_ is intriguing. 
I also don't like using _non-assisted bikes_, although it is accurately descriptive, why should we need to qualify the original base common descriptor just because e-bikes came out. Or are we stuck with that. 
The study uses _cyclists_ to refer to riders of _human-powered bikes_, which is the term I've tended to use for _regular bikes_. Does anyone have a shorter easy flowing term for _human-powered bikes_, other than the now ambigious _bike/bicycle_?


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Canoe said:


> Seems there's a few people who need to do some reading before knee-jerk posting. So many refuting claims that were never made.
> 
> The article was about a study's results, and possible implications.
> 
> ...


No. it is still click bait because how many people will click through and read the actual study and how many will just read treehuggers synopsis of it? And how many will read someone else's synopsis of Treehuggers synopsis (as I linked below)?

The title of the actual research and survey: 
Physical activity of electric bicycle users compared to conventional bicycle users and non-cyclists: Insights based on health and transport data from an online survey in seven European cities

The summary: 
Therefore, this data suggests that e-bike use leads to substantial increases in physical activity in e-bikers switching from private motorized vehicle and public transport, while net losses in physical activity in e-bikers switching from cycling were much less due to increases in overall travel distance. (emphasis mine).

Treehuggers title:

Study finds that e-bike riders get as much exercise as riders of regular bikes
(https://www.treehugger.com/bikes/st...s-get-much-exercise-riders-regular-bikes.html)

The link I followed this weekend's title:

Believe it or not, study shows e-bike riders get more exercise than cyclists 
(https://electrek.co/2019/08/11/elec...-than-cyclists/amp/?__twitter_impression=true) which is seriously click baity

Spin and then more spin.

The summary from the study indicates that the predominant use of the study would be for city planners:

5. Conclusion
In conclusion, this analysis supports the notion to accept, or even promote, e-bikes as a healthy and sustainable transport option based on e-bikers travel behaviour and self-reported mode substitution. Planers should be aware that e-bikers travel longer distances than cyclists. Thus, e-bikes might be used for longer commuting trips than non-electric bicycles. To accommodate (or promote) this new demand and to avoid conflicts with other road users in urban areas, cycling infrastructure should be expanded and may need to be adapted to accommodate higher speeds and address safety needs. The health benefits in terms of physical activity of using e-bikes, particularly when replacing car trips, should be factored in when considering subsidizing e-biking.

I don't believe anyone would haves issues with this conclusion or the hopeful results of planners addressing this change in traffic, however it is not defacto support for ebikes being as good for physical fitness and/or better than a bicycle, it only indicates that user habits changed when leaving ICE transportation and noted that net physical losses from a switch from bikes to ebikes was not as much as would be presumed as the riders rode more.

The associated links above (and this thread) are great examples of how actual studies are spun to provide untrue information regarding a topic. Ebikes do not give one a better work out than a bicycle unless you ride them for longer. Presumably if the cyclists efforts are some percentage more assisted then you would need to ride the ebikes that percentage longer to gain the same benefit as a bike. As many have noted, including the study, this is great for many city and city dwellers. In mountain bike land those that have the time to ride their mountain bike longer benefit as well with more trails ridden more fun had and similar exercise levels accomplished. However for those with limited time to get our play and exercise, doing so on a bicycle would be a better way to maximize this play and with associated exercise over a your available play time.

I am not saying the a bike is more fun or suffering up hills is more worthy, just that false statements like the title of this thread and those other links is exactly how our fake news world has been built, skewing or otherwise misrepresenting factual information to suit or support standpoint. In this case it is being use to prop up support for ebikes here on MTBR and on Electrek and somewhat on treehugger as a method of cycling where you can get as good of a work out as a bike on an ebike, which is totally true, as long as it is noted that it needs to occur over a longer periods on the bike. Without full disclosure of the actual methods and conclusion of the actual study we have a click bait.

I have no interest in whether ebikes are good or bad just when scientific studies are misrepresented either way. In this case I feel that the results of this study has been misrepresented by the OP's post in this forum and certainly those sites that pick and chose what to present from that study without acknowledging the actual results of the article or any of their other findings.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

chazpat said:


> I just wish ebikers would stop referring to non-ebikes as analog bikes, clockwork bikes, fossils bikes etc. These terms are just sly marketing to try to make bicycles look old and outdated and ebikes new and "the future". In other words, propaganda to accomplish an agenda. If you don't think people are easily fooled with marketing, just ask someone who is against Obama Care if think the Affordable Care Act is a better alternative.


I have to agree that trying to get support from MTBR bike riding users for ebikes on whole and then referring to bikes by anything other than "(mountain)bikes" immediately seems to turn these users against the ebike cause. Your point about devaluing no electric bikes is a good point. With the car industry eyeing entry into the ebike world it is only a matter of time until bikes are marginalized.

Someday's I just feel like welcoming our battery powered overlords, keeping my head down and stock piling light tires, other days I can't believe that people would buy a bicycle that needs to have its crazy expensive battery replaced ever 500 charges and assume that it just gets chucked in to the garbage, on top of all the other things that these bikes share with bikes that need to be thrown in the landfill as well. In the end at least I will say I never tossed a huge heavy metal filled battery in the landfill, at least for my bike, phones are a whole other topic of waste.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> I have to agree that trying to get support from MTBR bike riding users for ebikes on whole and then referring to bikes by anything other than "(mountain)bikes" immediately seems to turn these users against the ebike cause. Your point about devaluing no electric bikes is a good point. With the car industry eyeing entry into the ebike world it is only a matter of time until bikes are marginalized.
> 
> Someday's I just feel like welcoming our battery powered overlords, keeping my head down and stock piling light tires, other days I can't believe that people would buy a bicycle that needs to have its crazy expensive battery replaced ever 500 charges and assume that it just gets chucked in to the garbage, on top of all the other things that these bikes share with bikes that need to be thrown in the landfill as well. In the end at least I will say I never tossed a huge heavy metal filled battery in the landfill, at least for my bike, phones are a whole other topic of waste.


That's the thing, bicycles are not going anywhere. Motors were added to bicycles a very long time ago and yet people have kept choosing to ride bicycles. The same thing will happen with ebikes, some people will choose to ride them and others will choose to ride bicycles. The future will show us what percentage chooses which one. And all we need are the terms bicycle and ebike, or mountain bike and electric mountain bike in terms of trail riding; we don't need "digital bike" vs "analog bike" and all that marketing propaganda crap.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

chazpat said:


> I just wish ebikers would stop referring to non-ebikes as analog bikes, clockwork bikes, fossils bikes etc. These terms are just sly marketing to try to make bicycles look old and outdated and ebikes new and "the future". In other words, propaganda to accomplish an agenda. If you don't think people are easily fooled with marketing, just ask someone who is against Obama Care if think the Affordable Care Act is a better alternative.





> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to chazpat again.


 ....


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

rockcrusher said:


> No. it is still click bait because how many people will click through and read the actual study and how many will just read treehuggers synopsis of it? And how many will read someone else's synopsis of Treehuggers synopsis (as I linked below)?
> 
> The title of the actual research and survey:
> Physical activity of electric bicycle users compared to conventional bicycle users and non-cyclists: Insights based on health and transport data from an online survey in seven European cities
> ...


I haven't read the 'synopsis of Alter's synopsis', and I had no knowledge of it when I started this thread, and I have not yet read it.

You're criticizing the titles, both of which are accurate. Neither Alter nor myself claimed that you get more exercise while riding an e-bike, but that the study reports that *e-bike* RIDERS get more exercise. 
Study finds that e-bike *riders* get as much exercise as riders of regular bikes​
And that's for all e-bike riders, including the cyclists who also ride an e-bike, not just the ones new to it from ICE. You're criticizing a title based on putting words into it that are not there.

Nor does Alter at Treehugger misrepresent the study. He's very active in addressing planning issues, as I believe one would pickup from his article.

And now you're accusing my post of misrepresenting the results of the study. I was not a reporter reporting the results of a study. I posted about a finding in the study that surprised me, as it was much different from what I'd always assumed. Nothing more, nothing less.

I stated a result that was found, that it surprised me, why that result was found (that e-bike riders ride more) and then quoted the numbers from the study, and provided the link to the article, hence to the study. 
Go back and ready my OP post. No point in copying it in here. 
Where on earth do you get _misrepresenting the study_, apart from all of the words you are imagining and put in my mouth and Alter's mouth.

Comparing the MET min/wk of e-bikers' 4463 vs. cyclists' 4085, while technically e-bikers results are 378 (9.25%) higher than cyclists. Period.

The study characterizes the riders' exercise as "similar". 
The study's numbers for e-bike riders vs. cyclists, has the value for exercise for e-bike riders as higher. 9.25% higher. 
Both titles are correct.


Your claim that Alter's article and my post misrepresent the study is false.
Your statement "provide untrue information regarding a topic." is also false. 
Your statement "*false statements like the title of this thread* and those other links is exactly how our fake news world has been built, skewing or otherwise misrepresenting factual information to suit or support standpoint." is false. 
"In this case it is being use to prop up support for ebikes here on MTBR " is false. 
There is no untrue information. There are no false statements, apart from yours. Nor are factual information misrepresented. The numbers and what is said about them are what is in the study. Plus Alter's article pulls in additional information that he feels may have some input on planning issues. He's clear he feels there's further insight to be gained from this study.

"Without full disclosure of the actual methods and conclusion of the actual study we have a click bait." How on earth would one put such in a title? In a post?

No. We have the point of information I found interesting, and I quoted the reported numbers & text from the study that reports what they determined that so interested and surprised me. Anyone wanted more information beyond that has the link to see my source, and hence the link to the study if they're so interested. If people had to quote all of their sources' texts and methods instead of citing them, then you guys would need a homogeneously larger server storage space to run this site, and it would be completely unreadable and usable.

None of what I posted nor what is in Alter's article is false. Nor does it misrepresent.

*Neither the study, nor Alter's article, nor my post, make any of the claims you are rebutting. *

That an Administrator is making such false accusations is shameful.

There are many additional potential benefits that may be obtained from what the study found, but those did not surprise me.

Where in the study, Alter's article or my post does it say an e-bike gives one a better work out? Even riding an e-bike longer may not be a better workout. Again, what it does report, and what surprised a number of people, is that e-bike riders get *similar* amounts of exercise, as measured.

Your statements 
"Ebikes do not give one a better work out than a bicycle unless you ride them for longer." 
"a method of cycling where you can get as good of a work out as a bike on an ebike, which is totally true, as long as it is noted that it needs to occur over a longer periods on the bike."
 are suspect. I don't know if riding an e-bike for longer will be able to give you the same, let alone better work out. You have to factor in quality of the work out, not just how much workout you get in a given time. I have no factual information about exercise quality, but I believe that one would get a better quality workout from riding a human-powered bike; I'm guessing simply because it's harder/more-work. But then I could easily be wrong - I thought that riding an e-bike would result in less exercise.

Your statement "however it is not defacto support for ebikes being as good for physical fitness and/or better than a bicycle" is also suspect. Given the riding behaviour with e-bike riders, that the numbers show that riding an e-bike is similar, or perhaps (9.25% perhaps) better if you fit that average, you'll get more exercise, then e-bikes may be better.

I hope you take the time to read and reflect upon your accusations before posting again on this matter.

Given all of your false comments and accusations, and how riled up you are, I'm rather hesitant to go read what you say is an "synopsis of Alter's synopsis". And they chose to headline the facts the study found, instead of the study's characterization of their meaning as "similar".

Regards,

Canoe


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

How energy is expended and fitness is added, kinda reminds me of a hiker and a runner going to the same distance, then comparing "results". They went the same distance, so they expended the same energy and gained the same fitness, right?

It's truly a dumb conversation, which is my point, though I'll admit to being frustrated with ebike advocates always looking for ways to promote ebikes when the best promotion is to "try one".

What gets me is you will never see a biker and runner comparing notes in the running forums or the biking forums, perhaps they would discussed cross training, but to compare apples and oranges is silliness ... they just seem to realize that whereas folks on this forum are still in the dark ages.

Just ride your damn bike and stop trying to convince others that you and your decisions are okay.

Honest to gawd, even though anti ebikers will call you a moto riders and point to your ebike and say "moped", in the greater scheme of things, what others think about you is really not that important.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

chazpat said:


> That's the thing, bicycles are not going anywhere. Motors were added to bicycles a very long time ago and yet people have kept choosing to ride bicycles. The same thing will happen with ebikes, some people will choose to ride them and others will choose to ride bicycles. The future will show us what percentage chooses which one....


The real world is even stranger than that...
E-bikes as a gateway to human-powered bicycles. 
I am astounded at the number of e-bike riders I see a year or so later on a very expensive bike. Some seen commuting, most on weekends. 


Canoe said:


> ... E-Bikes are a Gateway Bike!
> I find it interesting how often we see returning former riders or new riders getting e-bikes, and a year or so down the line, they're spending the same, more, or significantly more, on a non-assisted bike for fun on the weekend.
> 
> And due to the weather where I live, a large percentage of e-bikes on the road are e-MTB. ...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Canoe said:


> The real world is even stranger than that...
> E-bikes as a gateway to human-powered bicycles.
> I am astounded at the number of e-bike riders I see a year or so later on a very expensive bike. Some seen commuting, most on weekends.


Huh, I've only seen it go the other way so far.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> Huh, I've only seen it go the other way so far.


Not usually people who rode before they got the e-bike and likely know the value and ride of a reasonably quality bike, but people riding a bike for the first time as an e-bike, or in particular if they're returning after having not riden since school (college, high, elementary). They spend $1.2K to $2K on an e-bike, and then around a year later you see them on a non-assisted bike worth $3K to $5K. More often a road bike than a MTB, but I have to forgive them that, they're on a bike. And talk to them? Immediate grin from ear to ear. They've never been happier.

As these are not people I know, but just people I noticed around town over time.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Canoe said:


> As these are not people I know, but just people I noticed around town over time.


Man, you know quite a bit about people you don't know 

Time will tell. Like I said, so far I haven't seen that but that doesn't mean it isn't so.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Jesus, all the energy you e-bikers save during your "rides" you expend typing on MTBR. So many words signifying ... nothing.


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## Nash04 (Dec 24, 2012)

dundundata said:


> ride an ebike for awhile, then hop on a regular bike. i think it speaks for itself which is more of a workout.


Yeah! I noticed a big difference, rode my ebike for a week on some tough trails in eco mode most of the time then I rode my Stumpy the following and it felt like I haven't ridden a bike for months, totally out of shape. So now if I ride the ebike, I only use the assist on ascends and noticed a big difference once I took the Stumpy out.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Thanks goodness for we all have so many great choices out there for us to enjoy. I've always said, ebikes are not for everyone and nothing wrong with that. We all enjoy mountain biking for different reasons, we are all at different fitness levels as well. Some love climbing, some love the down hills, some love just being in the great outdoors, etc... Me personally, the climbs have ALWAYS BEEN A NECESSARY EVIL TO GET AT THE DOWNHILL! I've felt this way every since I started mountain biking in the late 80's and I've never changed my mind.

Like any studies, there are always people who this would not apply. I personally can relate to this study and I'm sure quite a few ebikers on this site has data to back this up like me. I've only had my ebike for about 4 months. I've been a Strava member for a long time and here's what the data shows for 4 months of a year since 2017:
2017 4 month average 125hrs ride time with 1,046 miles ridden.
2018 4 month average 123hrs ride time with 952 miles ridden.
2019 4 month average 91hrs ride time with 689 miles. 
2019 ebike 4 month average 170hrs ridden with 1,508 The hours/miles would be higher, but I've had a few business trips and vacations these last past months.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

We have a lot of downtime while we wait for our batteries to recharge. Now do the Turner forum.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> Thanks goodness for we all have so many great choices out there for us to enjoy. I've always said, ebikes are not for everyone and nothing wrong with that. We all enjoy mountain biking for different reasons, we are all at different fitness levels as well. Some love climbing, some love the down hills, some love just being in the great outdoors, etc... Me personally, the climbs have ALWAYS BEEN A NECESSARY EVIL TO GET AT THE DOWNHILL! I've felt this way every since I started mountain biking in the late 80's and I've never changed my mind.
> 
> Like any studies, there are always people who this would not apply. I personally can relate to this study and I'm sure quite a few ebikers on this site has data to back this up like me. I've only had my ebike for about 4 months. I've been a Strava member for a long time and here's what the data shows for 4 months of a year since 2017:
> 2017 4 month average 125hrs ride time with 1,046 miles ridden.
> ...


I'm riding my eBike around 60 miles a week; 2400 miles and counting. That's about the same as I did on my clockwork bikes before my joint problem slowed me way down.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

chazpat said:


> I just wish ebikers would stop referring to non-ebikes as analog bikes, clockwork bikes, fossils bikes etc. These terms are just sly marketing to try to make bicycles look old and outdated and ebikes new and "the future". In other words, propaganda to accomplish an agenda. If you don't think people are easily fooled with marketing, just ask someone who is against Obama Care if think the Affordable Care Act is a better alternative.


I'm sure the ebike crowd wishes mtb riders stop calling ebikes: mopeds, motorcycles, cheater bikes, electric motor bikes, and worse yet the calling of actual people lazy, etc.... It's too bad people just can't respect others. I may have in past used those names to call out bikes, but lately I just use the term bikes or mtb and ebikes or emtb. Seems simple to me as most people would understand that the "E" means electric motor and a lot easier to type the "e" then what others like to call out in a negative way.

Ebikes are here whether you like it or not, in a lot of areas ebikes are outselling regular bikes. The bottom line is we are all mountain bikers and my personal opinion is we should unite and become a much larger user group.


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> Ebikes are here whether you like it or not, in a lot of areas ebikes are outselling regular bikes. The bottom line is we are all mountain bikers and my personal opinion is we should unite and become a much larger user group.


While I totally agree emopeds are there to stay, and honestly I don't have anything against them, just as I don't have anything against mx bikes, road motorbikes or cars. If I can ride bike, they can ride something else. 
But we are NOT all mountain bikers, because if we are, then any mx or enduro rider can also say he's mountain biker. Which to some extend would actually work, as he's in mountains and his on bike, just motor bike as emtb is, just slightly more powerful.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

primoz said:


> While I totally agree emopeds are there to stay, and honestly I don't have anything against them, just as I don't have anything against mx bikes, road motorbikes or cars. If I can ride bike, they can ride something else.
> But we are NOT all mountain bikers, because if we are, then any mx or enduro rider can also say he's mountain biker. Which to some extend would actually work, as he's in mountains and his on bike, just motor bike as emtb is, just slightly more powerful.


Yes, we are all mountain bikers and we really need to stop attacking each other.

This is such an old argument, Let's please move on from comparing a dirt bike to a class 1 ebike. The two are no where comparable. I use to ride dirt bikes and when on my dirt bike did I ever even remotely thought it was an ebike.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

As soon as bike has motor, it's motorbike. If nothing else, it's semantics.... Motor + bike = motorbike  If motor is 1HP electro motor, or 100HP combustion engine doesn't matter, motor is motor. And I'm not attacking anyone. I wrote, if I have right to be out on mountain bike, they have right to be out there on their motors. Only issue I have is sudden urge for them to identify as cyclists which they are clearly not.

As for "ebike riders get as much exercise as bike riders", I did short calculation today, and here are numbers for one sample uphill behind my house.

Climb is 3.63km long and has 425m of ascent. Without going full speed I my time up is about 25min, which considering my weight and bike weight (plus few other factors that matter) brings that to average power of 252W, average speed of 8.7km/h and average climbing rate of 1020m/h.
Now, if I believe Bosch technical data for their ebike motors, and I don't see reason why not to believe them, there are 4 steps of assist. Eco with 60% assist, Tour with 140%, sport with 240% and Turbo with 340%. Since you are suppose to have same workout on ebike as you have on normal bike, or so they say, this means, I calculated my own 252W plus motor assist and here are data:

own power: 252W
Speed: 8.7km
time: 25:00min
vam: 1020m/h

eco: 60% = 403W (151W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 13.7km
time: 15:55min
vam: 1600m/h

tour: 140% = 604W total (352W motor 252W own power)
Speed: 19.8km
time: 11:00min
vam: 2320m/h

sport: 240% = 856W total (604 motor 252W own power)
Speed: 25.13km
time: 8:40min
vam: 2942

turbo: 340% = 1108W total (856W motor 252W own power... yeah I knw motor doesn't go to 850W, so numbers would be slightly lower)
Speed: 31.1km
time: 7:00min
vam: 3645m/h

Even if everyone would ride only and exclusively in Eco mode, you would still have serious issues handling bike at such speed on this particular singletrail, not to mention any other mode (sport and turbo are really already in realm of dirt bikes).


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Hmm, when I go to a bike shop, I see ebikes, not motorcycles. But call them whatever, time to ride.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

whenever I hear, see, think, smell an ebike, my brain sees this


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

primoz said:


> While I totally agree emopeds are there to stay, and honestly I don't have anything against them, just as I don't have anything against mx bikes, road motorbikes or cars. If I can ride bike, they can ride something else.
> But we are NOT all mountain bikers, because if we are, then any mx or enduro rider can also say he's mountain biker. Which to some extend would actually work, as he's in mountains and his on bike, just motor bike as emtb is, just slightly more powerful.





primoz said:


> As soon as bike has motor, it's motorbike. If nothing else, it's semantics.... Motor + bike = motorbike  If motor is 1HP electro motor, or 100HP combustion engine doesn't matter, motor is motor. And I'm not attacking anyone. I wrote, if I have right to be out on mountain bike, they have right to be out there on their motors. Only issue I have is sudden urge for them to identify as cyclists which they are clearly not.
> 
> As for "ebike riders get as much exercise as bike riders", I did short calculation today, and here are numbers for one sample uphill behind my house.
> 
> ...


You're reaching for sake of argument. But that's okay. You can have your opinion and I'm not here to comment on the BS part. Just a reminder the article didn't say it was the same workout. If you are gong by what Bosc states, well that isn't the topic of this thread. The idea was there is more exercise.

As in, I'm old and my knees hurt. I bought an e-bike and now I ride. Yes, we now have one more human exercising than before.
Thanks for the time and the calculations though. I appreciate the math.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> whenever I hear, see, think, smell an ebike, my brain sees this


 I want one.


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## richardjohnson (Sep 12, 2016)

Gutch said:


> I want one.


imagine moonwalking on one of these. Thug life, deal with it.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

dundundata said:


> ride an ebike for awhile, then hop on a regular bike. i think it speaks for itself which is more of a workout.


It almost, kinda, seems like you chose to miss the point.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

mikesee said:


> It almost, kinda, seems like you chose to miss the point.


Either that or he's invalidating the slippery slope of people averaging too high of speed on them. Can't have it both ways.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

I'm not really an e-bike lover or hater. I ride them occasionally (demo's from my LBS, i don't own one) on the few fire-roads that they are legal on in my local area. I mostly only ride them when I'm recovering from an injury that doesn't allow me to pedal my own fleet of non-electrified bikes. I don't really have much of a dog in this fight, although I do have my own opinions.

I digress... Here's some actual info to talk about vs just random arguing and conjecture. I've got a re-occuring knee injury that isn't letting me put any more then 100 watts or so down right now. I was getting stircrazy to ride so I decided to do a little e-bike smash on a trance e pro1 at full assist and completely soft pedal my way to the top and let the bike do the work. Typically, i don't ride e-bikes like this and I ride them with a lower assist setting in order to prolong battery life and be nicer to the motor. This was not one of those rides.

Anyway, I took heart rate data from the rides and compared it to a ride of similar clock time on non-electrified bike. Keep in mind that the distances and stats traveled are very different.

E Bike Ride:






















Normal Bike:















I have my own theories about perceived effort between the two and how hard I was working, however what matters is the data between the two.

Fwiw: I am 37, I ride 3-4 times a week. Most of my rides are 2-3 hours with an occasional 4-7 hour ride thrown in a few times a month. My max heart rate is basically 177 for normal rides and I've seen 192 while doing XCO races. I'm an advanced, aggressive rider on the uphills and downhills... Strava would tell me that I'm on average top 10-15% going both uphill and down in socal.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Bah- NFW!

For e-bike riders who go the same distance, my experience (riding with them) is that they can't keep the pace when they hop back on a pedal-powered steed. 

One of the guys I ride with had triple bypass surgery a few years ago so it makes sense that he can no longer rev that high (he has awesome bike handling skills!). The other 2-3 people who come out on them more often than not are in very good shape/health. 

After riding e-bikes for a few weeks, they feel gassed pedaling regular MTB's on a weekly urban assault (sometimes all trail) fast-pace ride that we've been doing for a number of years. 

Poetic justice occurs occasionally; when their batteries run out and they have to pedal 40+ lbs of bike


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

minimusprime said:


> I'm not really an e-bike lover or hater. I ride them occasionally (demo's from my LBS, i don't own one) on the few fire-roads that they are legal on in my local area. I mostly only ride them when I'm recovering from an injury that doesn't allow me to pedal my own fleet of non-electrified bikes. I don't really have much of a dog in this fight, although I do have my own opinions.
> 
> I digress... Here's some actual info to talk about vs just random arguing and conjecture. I've got a re-occuring knee injury that isn't letting me put any more then 100 watts or so down right now. I was getting stircrazy to ride so I decided to do a little e-bike smash on a trance e pro1 at full assist and completely soft pedal my way to the top and let the bike do the work. Typically, i don't ride e-bikes like this and I ride them with a lower assist setting in order to prolong battery life and be nicer to the motor. This was not one of those rides.


This post is absolutely perfect and aligns perfectly with the topic "increased exercise".

Can't ride due to injury...no wait, I can ride an ebike and get exercise. Yipee!


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

edubfromktown said:


> Poetic justice occurs occasionally; when their batteries run out and they have to pedal 40+ lbs of bike


Uhhhh... what? How is it poetic or even justice? This would suggest they've done something wrong and are getting their come-uppance for it. What a bizarre attitude.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

nilswalk said:


> Uhhhh... what? How is it poetic or even justice? This would suggest they've done something wrong and are getting their come-uppance for it. What a bizarre attitude.


You've got to remember that people that hate ebikes and ebike riders find enjoyment that an ebiker has to carry around a super heavy bike. So yeah, it's justice for people like that.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Forest Rider said:


> This post is absolutely perfect and aligns perfectly with the topic "increased exercise".
> 
> Can't ride due to injury...no wait, I can ride an ebike and get exercise. Yipee!


I've been injured before and have also been through periods when I'm fatigued from over training, I just pick a flat, easily ride that won't ever require much more than 100 watts. It may not be as fun for some but I do still get exercise, to say an e-bike is required is sort of a first world problem.

Agree that they might motivate some people to get out and do something when they otherwise probably wouldn't have.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

The key to think about is while e-biking can achieve similar heart rates, you will not get the same strength training / muscular workout. For example, I can spin at a high cadence with an e-bike and get my heart rate up to typical workout / ride levels but I won't have to physically "power" my legs as much. At the end of an e-bike ride, I'm tired, but at the end of an "analog" ride, I am tired and my muscles are weary. Maybe an easier way to explain is it aerobic training versus strength training.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

roughster said:


> The key to think about is while e-biking can achieve similar heart rates, you will not get the same strength training / muscular workout. For example, I can spin at a high cadence with an e-bike and get my heart rate up to typical workout / ride levels but I won't have to physically "power" my legs as much. At the end of an e-bike ride, I'm tired, but at the end of an "analog" ride, I am tired and my muscles are weary. Maybe an easier way to explain is it aerobic training versus strength training.


That's not an entirely true statement though. Sure, if you are going to be going similar speeds it probably holds true.

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## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> I've been injured before and have also been through periods when I'm fatigued from over training, I just pick a flat, easily ride that won't ever require much more than 100 watts. It may not be as fun for some but I do still get exercise, to say an e-bike is required is sort of a first world problem.
> 
> Agree that they might motivate some people to get out and do something when they otherwise probably wouldn't have.


Fatigued from over training is a bit different then rehabbing a serious injury. I've done what you're talking about before and that on 2 occasions, left me far from home with a a blown up knee or thrown out back and hoping my wife picks up the phone so she can come get me. In this particular case for me, being able to climb up a hill where I can turn around and coast back down with no load on my body is the ultimate outcome of what I'm looking for (in my particular anecdote).

I digress, that's not what this is about. The thread, is about do people that ride e-bikes get exercise and the answer to that is very obviously, yes. The key to me, is that I am likely not pushing hard enough to cause distress and as a result, adaptation. It's obviously far easier to hit zone 5 heart rate on an analog bike. As mentioned above, (at least in my case), I'm generally not pushing my muscles anywhere near as hard on an e-bike. It's in these cases where we are pushing to and past our limits where adaptation occurs.

To me, there is no doubt that riding an e-bike is exercise or a workout. It is however, not pushing me in the same way that riding an analog bike does. Also both from a perceived effort and even data perspective, I don't work as hard on an e-bike as I do an analog bike, even if I'm hammering.

I'm sure right now, there are some e-bike fans and riders reading this thinking, well that's only true if you ride them a certain way. To which I would say, I disagree. The e-bikes cut out at higher cadences and they don't continue to amplify power once you start putting serious watts down. For example, my FTP is around 335 and my weight is 170. At this Watts/kg, I can out power an e-bike to the point where it is no longer amplifying power and really the only way for me to get a lot out of it, is to soft pedal or turn the assist down to the lowest setting. Even then, this scenario is something that is specifically not good for e-bike motors and powertrains.

So... where does this leave us. Access issues and rider capabilities aside, riding an e-bike is exercise no doubt. It is however, assisted enough that I would be very specific in saying that it is not at all training. Riding an e-bike is not likely to cause a rider that can ride 1-2 times a week on an analog bike to have any sort of increased aerobic capacity or adaptation. As has been hinted at here, you are very likely to hit a plateau quickly, and from there you likely will not continue to progress, until you take more responsibility for the power that needs to be put down to accomplish trail sections.

I would say that anyone that is able bodied and can ride a regular bike (once their fitness allows them to ride their local terrain) should do so once they are capable. This will be a way to become a better rider and become less reliant on the juice.

On the other hand, ebikes are pretty damn fun. As a toy and a way to get outside and get some exercise, they are great. I'm never going to tell some one that their kind of fun isn't ok, but my kind of fun is. That is, unless they are doing things which will cause access issues for the greater whole of mtbers, or to paint mtb riders in any sort of negative light.

This thread is about, e-bikers get as much exercise as normal bikes. To that I would say, from the myopic view of what "exercise" is, the answer is likely yes. You are indeed getting very close to the same cardiovascular benefit. However, you're not accessing the last 5-10% of capacity that causes (read: forces) adaptation and expansion of capacity.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

tuckerjt07 said:


> That's not an entirely true statement though. Sure, if you are going to be going similar speeds it probably holds true.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


This comes from my experience as well just thinking it through logically. Lets use the "best example" a steep hill long enough that you have to work at it. Not trying to be a dick, but please review real actual ride from me today (analog) versus my PR (on e-bike):








From today 15AUG2019 on my Trek Farley EX 8. Wasn't my "Analog PR" but close. Blue line is the obvious cutoff between analog and e-bike rides.








This is my PR. Now look at speed and HR. Notice something?

Today: 145 - 159 HR, 143 watts = 3.2 mph
PR: 141 - 151 HR, 284 watts = 5.7 mph

Can you guess which one I felt in the legs? My PR was actually a fun fast "spin" on the e-bike. Today, I was grunting going for analog PR but lost traction on a corner.

I was at 97% "normal" HR on the ebike at the low end and 95% HR on the ebike at the high end. So if aerobically it was the "same", the difference is the muscular exertion to go up that hill, which is a tough one due to rapid accelerations needed and loose dirt in the corners steeper sections. The ebike simply provided the extra wattage for me while on the analog I had to grunt my way through it using my own wattage aka what I would call "strength training".


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Now, this is not to say I am anti-ebike, obviously! I own and ride one. I have already rehabbed through a minor knee strain, got my son and wife out on trails they would've never tried before. I am 100% pro-ebike. I completely agree with minimusprime except for the statement that you should always ride analog if you can. I ride what I feel I want to ride on any given day. E-bikes teach you things like speed management, bike handling a heavier bike (especially in loose dirt), feathering brakes, and they let me scout areas or blast through to get to a specific section I am working on. 

Ebikes have their place in both the exercise capacity and enjoyment capacity and I have not regretted my ebike purchase once since I got it. Oh, and if we want to talk trail access, we can do that too. I am building the local trail pretty much solo and know every inch of the trail and see the impact of almost every single ride analog or ebike. My buddy who I ride with loves to skid and flick, which is cool, but does infinitely more trail damage then me on the ebike.


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## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

roughster said:


> I completely agree with minimusprime except for the statement that you should always ride analog if you can. I ride what I feel I want to ride on any given day.


Fair point and I didn't address that well. I think that it's an extension of your logic, you get things out of both as a cyclist. As a cyclist, I feel like you should try everything. For example, I exclusively ride SPD pedals... but every 6 months or so I switch to flats for a handful of weeks to keep my riding honest. Do I have any intention of riding flats long term? not really, but I learn a ton from it.

In the end, get what you want out of your hobby. If you're wanting more, then try new things and see if that gets you what you want. If you're content with what you have and the progression you are experiencing, eff it, you do you. But as with everything in our society, do your best to have you fun while minimizing the impact of your fun onto others. And for the love of god, relax a bit. Going around being outraged at what other people are doing is exhausting. 

_(not at all directed at anyone in particular, especially you roughtster, just the general temperature in the mtb vs ebike crowd). _


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Rock solid! :thumbsup:


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

minimusprime said:


> Fatigued from over training is a bit different then rehabbing a serious injury.


I did mention that I've been injured. I was responding to a post about someone using an ebike for easy rides, no more than 100 watts. I don't think they said exactly how serious the injury was.

My point was that 100 watts is 100 watts whether on an ebike or a bicycle, and that big elevation gain isn't necessary required to get rehab exercise.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

roughster said:


> This comes from my experience as well just thinking it through logically. Lets use the "best example" a steep hill long enough that you have to work at it. Not trying to be a dick, but please review real actual ride from me today (analog) versus my PR (on e-bike):
> 
> View attachment 1271965
> 
> ...


You highlighted the deficiency in your logic. Just because your fastest effort to date was a "fun, fast spin" does not mean that every ride on an e-bike must fit those parameters.
Not everyone uses every available tool in exactly the same manner that you do.

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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

I don’t disagree that everyone rides differently, but the above data does not support *your* comment (actually you disputed my statement) that that equal effort on analog versus ebike results in different muscle recruitment. Just think about it logically, you have a “free” 200+ watts. Of course they aren’t the same, but my data clearly shows that you can achieve similar heart rates just without as much muscular effort.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

roughster said:


> I don't disagree that everyone rides differently, but the above data does not support *your* comment (actually you disputed my statement) that that equal effort on analog versus ebike results in different muscle recruitment. Just think about it logically, you have a "free" 200+ watts. Of course they aren't the same, but my data clearly shows that you can achieve similar heart rates just without as much muscular effort.


First, your data doesn't mean what you think it does. Second, you have zero data other than perceived effort, notoriously unreliable, with zero control given to the state that your body was in before you collected single data points out of the many you would need to have anything approaching proof. In short your data shows nothing because you don't have enough of it to show anything.

You have a "potential" free 200Ws, so what? For a given rider on a given course it's entirely possible that the extra 200Ws is just bonus speed and effort has not been reduced. You are also making the assumption that all of the 200Ws are being used, again for a given rider that is not a guarantee.

I ride with someone who regularly rides both, he needs his e-bike to stay with the group on group rides due to medical issues. Over months of experience he will tell you that due to how he rides the e-bike it makes his legs more tired over the exact same trail and distance than his non-e-ebike. Empirical evidence, hardly, but worth just as much as your data is in regards to actual proof.

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Does anyone disagree that one of the main appeals of e-bikes is that they are a little easier than "analog" bikes? Seems obvious.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Okay, we will just have to agree to disagree because I completely fail to see your logic. Also, look at the data (pictures) I selected one of each type of ride (ebike versus normal). It isn't like there are other data points present which support a higher volume of rides.. Also, it is not perceived effort, you seem to be failing to look at the power for each ride which I listed. If you would like, I can data table all of my efforts on that ride and do a full statistical evaluation showing what I mean as well as throw in other uphill segments reaching probably n of 50+, but something tells me it won’t change your mind.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

roughster said:


> Okay, we will just have to agree to disagree because I completely fail to see your logic. Also, look at the data (pictures) I selected one of each type of ride (ebike versus normal). It isn't like there are other data points present which support a higher volume of rides.. Also, it is not perceived effort, you seem to be failing to look at the power for each ride which I listed. If you would like, I can data table all of my efforts on that ride and do a full statistical evaluation showing what I mean as well as throw in other uphill segments reaching probably n of 50+, but something tells me it won't change your mind.


You said guess which one I felt in my legs more, that's perceived effort. You want me to look at estimated power as some form of evidence, not happening, again something else that's notoriously inaccurate. As it stands you have nothing that shows anything other than your anecdotal, perceived evidence as it pertains solely to you. That does not come close to meeting any intelligent burden of proof. You are even comparing the two in a scenario where you admit cannot bring the full power of either to bear due to traction issues.

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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

roughster, you seemingly chose to ride up as a fun fast spin, over the strength training of riding up the hill with the motor off. It's your conscious decision. If anything, that says more about you than anything else.

Trying to suggest something based on 1 data point out of millions/billions makes as much sense as the people calling for bans. It's akin to calling for a ban on M and R rated entertainment, due to the dangers (e.g. influential ideas and desensitization) that these have on minors, and nothing stops people from buying it for minors besides the parents' responsibility. The dangers could be overstated, but people seem to think there's no downside. In fact, they'll praise the upsides, like kids may be inclined to do something healthier like playing outside instead, like they did as a kid! Clearly that's a good idea in this age... *sarcasm* (bet old folks won't realize the real dangers of having bored poorly educated kids outside)

The hypocrisy... if we followed your logic, people who choose carbon XC bikes to make the hills easier would seem shameful compared to the guys riding up walmart bikes. Do you make fun of people trying to get outside on walmart bikes, and tell 'em to get something like your fancy ass bike too? Those people making fun of others in this manner is what society calls a judgemental "4-letter-C-word".

Don't care if you're pro-ebike or whatever. The only tribes I recognize are the smart and civil and the stupid ********s.


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## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Wait, I should’ve used quotes to indicate who I was directing my post to. Now I am not sure who is talking to who? Ninjichor, who was that directed at?


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## MoWind (Jun 13, 2019)

I’m 69, I’ve got a Jeffsy (acoustic bike) and a Decoy (e-bike). They’re both awesome mountain bikes, and I love them both. What else matters?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

roughster said:


> This comes from my experience as well just thinking it through logically. Lets use the "best example" a steep hill long enough that you have to work at it. Not trying to be a dick, but please review real actual ride from me today (analog) versus my PR (on e-bike):
> 
> View attachment 1271965
> 
> ...


Excellent post. Nice to see someone post some real world data to back up their assertaitions. This is great to show to all those who claim eBikes are not faster uphill and are just as much work uphill. Obviously having a motor makes them faster and easier and your data proves that. Thank you.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

roughster said:


> The key to think about is while e-biking can achieve similar heart rates, you will not get the same strength training / muscular workout. For example, I can spin at a high cadence with an e-bike and get my heart rate up to typical workout / ride levels but I won't have to physically "power" my legs as much. At the end of an e-bike ride, I'm tired, but at the end of an "analog" ride, I am tired and my muscles are weary. Maybe an easier way to explain is it aerobic training versus strength training.


But you can vary how much exercise you can get from an e-bike a lot more than from a normal bike. With a normal bike, you either crawl up a steep hill slow or you stand up and pedal hard to exhaustion, not much in-between. With an e-bike, you can (depending on the brand/type) lower the e-power down to a level where it's not much faster uphill than a normal bike, and the extra weight of the e-bike is going to build more upper body strength. My wife really notices something different in my upper muscles since I've been riding an e-bike in the last year. I notice it too, upper body workout is much more than with a 30-35 lb normal bike. You have to work harder to keep a heavy bike's handlebars straight uphill. And leg workout can be similar if you lower the wattage down to 50-100W uphill (if you can lower that on your e-bike, of course); that wattage will basically make up for the extra weight of the bike and the motor drag so it will be roughly equivalent to a lighter bike with no e-power. It's just more fun to do 200-300W uphill, that's all.

If you were in eco mode would you still be that much faster uphill with the e-bike?


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

As this thread goes back and forth, it’s obvious that an ebiker does get a good workout. The motor helps, but it’s not a free ride, as heart rate data backs this up from previous post. 

Time to lock this down before it gets to personal. For the most part, this was a good post and most people stayed respectful! 




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