# C&B Seen 1900 3up



## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

New test light, C&B Seen 1900 lumen (claimed) 3up. Good luck with the 7up I got a few months ago prompted me to try this one out as a possible alternative to the Revtronic BT40s or maybe the Yinding. Treating an over use injury will keep me from doing an actual ride with the light for a couple of days but I did get a few lux measurements and a current draw on it so I'll share that and have to add ride impressions later. One of the things I discovered is the preset levels do not match what's listed on the website so instead of 10/25/100% listed the actual levels are 10/30/80%. 100% power achievable in the programming mode which requires the wireless remote so I'm listing lux measurements at both 100% and 80% for those who choose not to pay the extra for the remote switch/QR mount. Also listing BT40s numbers and approx. Yinding numbers (my Yinding's performance has faded gradually but measurably so won't list current numbers).

LUX TESTS:..............................................................bounce test.........................................center beam (x 100)

3up 100%:...............................................................170.1...........................................................59.1

3up 80%:.................................................................146.............................................................53.1

BT40s:.....................................................................143.3..........................................................26.3

Yinding (Approx. when new):......................................130..............................................................35

Current draw on the 3up was only 1.5A ([email protected]%) with the BT40s showing a 1.6A draw. Past Yinding results were equal to the BT40s so along with being more powerful it looks like the 3up is a bit more efficient too.

Will add more when I get some ride time on the light.
Mole

https://www.candb-seen.co.uk/product-single-1900lm-lamp-head-unit-black-remot.html


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Looks like a Ledil CUTE-3 optic.

http://www.ledil.com/luopdf-productfamily-1.php?s=54&t=4614

Flat sanding the "bobbles" off the front then re-polishing the face tightens the beam a fair bit. Makes a nicer beam IMO.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

> QUOTE=Vancbiker;13393168]Looks like a Ledil CUTE-3 optic.
> 
> http://www.ledil.com/luopdf-productf...hp?s=54&t=4614
> 
> Flat sanding the "bobbles" off the front then re-polishing the face tightens the beam a fair bit. Makes a nicer beam IMO.


Thanks for the tip. Definitely need to get a ride in with the 3up to see where I'm starting at with it. Initial thoughts were it would make a nice option to the BT40s super flood with a little narrower but far further reaching beam pattern. Looking at the light meter readings and after shining the 3up around the yard I'm sure it will make a much stronger helmet option vs. the Yinding since its beam appears wider and much more intense. It may just end being better than both.
Mole


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Very nice Mole! Looking forward to actual ride use. So am I correct that, like the 7up, this one also suffers from programming not working right? 

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

garrybunk said:


> Very nice Mole! Looking forward to actual ride use. So am I correct that, like the 7up, this one also suffers from programming not working right?
> 
> -Garry


Unfortunately the programming is as the 7up (no preset lock). After riding the 7up for a while it's not really that bad as I just run it in programming mode all the time which allows you to scroll up and down. Hoping to get a ride in tonight. Don't think I'll be steering people to the Yinding anymore from what I see initially. Absolutely smokes the BT40s and Yinding for center beam lux numbers. Need ride time to solidify impressions of actual performance though.
Mole


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

MRMOLE said:


> Absolutely smokes the BT40s and Yinding for center beam lux numbers. Need ride time to solidify impressions of actual performance though.
> Mole


NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH (said while putting my fingers in my ears). You need to quit tempting me to buy another light!

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

First ride with the 3up (C&B Seen 1900) side by side on the bars vs. the BT40s. Pretty much as expected the BT40s lit up everything around the bike and the 3up had *a lot better throw*. Beam shots I got are a bit of a disservice to the BT40s IMO but did a good job of showing throw differences between the lights.

BT40s







C&B Seen 1900







BT40s







C&B Seen 1900







BT40s







C&B Seen 1900







BT40s







C&B Seen 1900








Also got a 10 min. thermal test in (No air flow, 84 ambient temp., program level 10 for the first 7 min., light off for 3 min. cool down). Max. case temp. reached was 132F @ 7min (no step down) and light slowly cooled to 119F @ 10 min. Would have liked it if the light cooled a little quicker but acceptable results. Plan to try the 3up as a helmet light next.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

*Update - Helemt Mounted*



Took the C&B seen 1900 3up out helmet mounted (BT40s bar) last night with good and not so good results. I used the 80% high mode preset since those who choose not to add the remote option will only be able to access that along with low (10%) and med. (30%). In spite of the fact the emitter tint is noticeably cooler it actually made a good partner for the BT40s. The 3up's wide beam pattern mixed smoothly (no hot spot) with the BT40s (which I didn't expect) and extended the range considerably more than a Yinding could. Want to try the 3up with some other lights that match it's tint closer (7up & X2).

Not so good results have to do with the remote. I've found a few places where it just won't work that all seem to be near major power lines. Haven't had problems trail riding but frustrating when it happens.









I used the Vanc mount off my BT70 (not a perfect fit) which mounted the light a little lower than using an o-ring mount. When I get one made for this light I'm going with the lowpro style and will use an Ituo helmet mount and estimate that should lower it almost the entire height of the light.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Have continued to be impressed with the 3 up helmet mounted performance. I've been out for short rides with a Yinding/2017 GW X2/7 up and it worked well with all of them. The 7 up and X2 make more power than the 3 up but run at optimal bar output settings still benefited from the extra throw of the 3 up when run @ anything above 80%. I reran my 2 meter center-beam lux test last night with the 3 up vs. 7 up and @ 100% the 7 up only had about a 3% advantage. Very surprising considering the optic surface of the 7 up is clear vs. the dimpled surface of the 3 up. Looking closer though the reflector area of the optic for each emitter is much larger on the 3 up so I'm guessing that plus the fact that each emitter is driven a little harder in the 3 up accounts for it's unexpected throw capability. I just might have to try Vancbiker's suggestion of polishing the optic surface.
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Here are pics of the before and after of the sanding and polishing operation.
















I did not take beamshots before and after. Over on the DIY lights forum another user posted some showing the tighter, further reaching beam.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

MRMOLE said:


> View attachment 1166422
> 
> 
> Have continued to be impressed with the 3 up helmet mounted performance. I've been out for short rides with a Yinding/2017 GW X2/7 up and it worked well with all of them. The 7 up and X2 make more power than the 3 up but run at optimal bar output settings still benefited from the extra throw of the 3 up when run @ anything above 80%. I reran my 2 meter center-beam lux test last night with the 3 up vs. 7 up and @ 100% the 7 up only had about a 3% advantage. Very surprising considering the optic surface of the 7 up is clear vs. the dimpled surface of the 3 up. Looking closer though the reflector area of the optic for each emitter is much larger on the 3 up so I'm guessing that plus the fact that each emitter is driven a little harder in the 3 up accounts for it's unexpected throw capability. I just might have to try Vancbiker's suggestion of polishing the optic surface.
> Mole


Imagine each led has its own reflector of circle size you can see on each lense. It is clear 3 up would have bigger reflectors thus making more throw ie. higgher lux readings. This is the reason you are getting those readings very close to each other.
I'm shure you know that throw is very dependable on reflector size.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Very general rule of thumb is: less emitters = more throw, more emitters = more flood (entire light driven at nearly same level of output). Of course this would vary wildly depending on emitter type, optic beam angle / reflector size, etc. . .

-Garry


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

garrybunk said:


> Very general rule of thumb is: less emitters = more throw, more emitters = more flood (entire light driven at nearly same level of output). Of course this would vary wildly depending on emitter type, optic beam angle / reflector size, etc. . .
> 
> -Garry


*EDIT* yea pretty much this. Easier to spot what a reflector bowl will do from China based on depth and diameter. Generally easy to tell what a TIR will do since most are just aimed towards spot type optics. However it is possible to develop TIR's that shape beam patterns far more than just a squish and stretch.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

ledoman said:


> Imagine each led has its own reflector of circle size you can see on each lense. It is clear 3 up would have bigger reflectors thus making more throw ie. higgher lux readings. This is the reason you are getting those readings very close to each other.
> I'm shure you know that throw is very dependable on reflector size.





> garrybunk
> Very general rule of thumb is: less emitters = more throw, more emitters = more flood (entire light driven at nearly same level of output). Of course this would vary wildly depending on emitter type, optic beam angle / reflector size, etc. . .
> 
> -Garry


Thanks for the feedback guys! I was just so focused on the optic surfaces I failed to notice how much larger the individual reflector size was on the 3 up till I looked at the two lights side by side. Good example for me on how much difference a more throw oriented emitter (xpg3) with a slightly larger reflector can make. Adequate beam width + excellent throw is something new to me from only a 1.5 amp current draw.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> *EDIT* yea pretty much this. Easier to spot what a reflector bowl will do from China based on depth and diameter. Generally easy to tell what a TIR will do since most are just aimed towards spot type optics. However it is possible to develop TIR's that shape beam patterns far more than just a squish and stretch.


While I like squish and stretch also looking forward to manipulation of light intensity placement to areas where it will be most beneficial. Waiting for you to dazzle us with your new lights!
Mole


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Just goes to show you that you don't need a light pulling high amounts of current to get good beam output. 

-Garry


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> .....Good example for me on how much difference a more throw oriented emitter (xpg3) with a slightly larger reflector can make. Adequate beam width + excellent throw


The polished paired 3-up optic was used with XPG2 emitters. I used it up til about a year ago. 6 of those at 1.2A makes pretty good light. Plenty wide and useable light to about 300 feet.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Vancbiker said:


> The polished paired 3-up optic was used with XPG2 emitters. I used it up til about a year ago. 6 of those at 1.2A makes pretty good light. Plenty wide and useable light to about 300 feet.


Sounds pretty impressive. Don't think I need 300' of throw but it couldn't hurt. I'll have to check the DIY forum for the beam shots you mentioned earlier.
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

garrybunk said:


> Just goes to show you that you don't need a light pulling high amounts of current to get good beam output.
> 
> -Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Have pretty much finished comparing the 1900 3up to the BT40s and Yinding. BT40s/Yinding are both less expensive but not by much if you add the cost of a good mount like what the 3up comes with. 3up out powers the Yinding especially for throw which makes it a much better helmet light. Beam width is similar to Yinding with stock optics and the 3up is less susceptible to overheating issues. BT40s on the other hand makes similar power to the 3up but has a much wider beam and even less throw than the Yinding has. Emitter tint and beam pattern make the BT40s a better bar light choice for most but I did find a way to widen the 3up's beam considerably. This a mod. I've used before on my Gemini Olympia's for bar use that works well and gives the 3up an even wider beam than the BT40s without it's excessive foreground glare and still manages about 10% higher center-beam lux numbers (throw indicator). Just requires a Action-LED-Lights elliptical style wide angle lens (for 808 Magicshine) and three or four drops of super glue to tack it to the bezel of the 3up. Judge for yourself from these beam shots on my garage door. Set up this way I prefer the 3up over the BT40s for bar use without even considering it also has a wireless remote switch.
Mole

Stock








+ elliptical lens cover


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

So wait a minute. You glued the elliptical lens to the 3up's face? You can't just remove the bezel and put it in front of the optic can you (no room to screw the bezel back on I suppose IF the lens diameter even fits). Can you post a pic of the front of the light now? 

Throw was not decreased using the elliptical lens?

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

garrybunk said:


> So wait a minute. You glued the elliptical lens to the 3up's face? You can't just remove the bezel and put it in front of the optic can you (no room to screw the bezel back on I suppose IF the lens diameter even fits). Can you post a pic of the front of the light now?
> 
> Throw was not decreased using the elliptical lens?
> 
> -Garry


Gotta charge my camera before it's willing to take any more pictures (will post one later). Throw is decreased considerably but still better than the BT40s and less than the Yinding. This was just an experiment and I don't plan on using the 3up this way. Would be good for a bar setup if used with another 3up on the helmet. Lack of room for under bezel mounting on my Olympia and the C&B Seen 7up so I didn't even try with the 3up. Being able to turn the 3up into a nice flood adds a little flexibility to the light.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

garrybunk said:


> Can you post a pic of the front of the light now?
> -Garry


Here you go.
Mole


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Nice! Doesn't look bad!

-Garry


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## dhalsey (Aug 10, 2010)

Anyone know anywhere else to buy these? 
Seems like they are out of stock at the original link.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

dhalsey said:


> Anyone know anywhere else to buy these?
> Seems like they are out of stock at the original link.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Did you try contacting C&B Seen? Since I've been dealing with them I've noticed things don't happen too fast on the web page and they have shown out of stock for months even though I got my ordered light. Possible they used up all their shipment with preorders but also possible they just haven't updated the web page. I'm going to email them to see what's up and post when I here something (they don't always answer quickly though).
Mole


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## dhalsey (Aug 10, 2010)

MRMOLE said:


> Did you try contacting C&B Seen? Since I've been dealing with them I've noticed things don't happen too fast on the web page and they have shown out of stock for months even though I got my ordered light. Possible they used up all their shipment with preorders but also possible they just haven't updated the web page. I'm going to email them to see what's up and post when I here something (they don't always answer quickly though).
> Mole


Thanks. I'll try contacting them.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Information I just got from Roger @ C&B Seen is they should have more stock in about a week. I understand they sold out the last order on presales which is why they never changed the web page. Will post when I get any more information.
Mole


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> Information I just got from Roger @ C&B Seen is they should have more stock in about a week. I understand they sold out the last order on presales which is why they never changed the web page. Will post when I get any more information.
> Mole


MRM, thanks for all the info on these lamps. Judging from what you have said about the C&B Seen 3-up it looks like this lamp might make the perfect "economy 3-up helmet lamp" to use in combo with a BT40S on the bars. Looks like the 3-up has pretty decent throw. I'm almost tempted to buy one just to screw around with it. Still, I'm pretty much a fan-boy of the inline emitter type lamps.

MRM, I know you own a Gemini Olympia and ITUO XP3, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how the C+Bseen 3Up compares to those, not just for output but for tint as well.

Now about the front lens on the 3up; Have you considered "flame polishing the front lens"? I've only read about people doing this but from what I've read if done right it removes all the bits on the front of the lens that disperse the light.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Where is this "flame polishing" posted - what it is & how to do it?

-Garry


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

garrybunk said:


> Where is this "flame polishing" posted - what it is & how to do it?


Flame polishing is used after wet sanding a plastic surface to restore clarity. Works really well with Acrylic which is a common plastic for LED optics. In the case of one of these 3 up optics, you can not just flame polish it to remove the bumpy texture. It has to be flat sanded (sandpaper on a flat surface) first. As with most finishing the end result quality is directly related to the prep work. Propane torch works OK but hydrogen/oxygen torch is the best. It is easy to overdo it and burn the plastic. You would want to have a few practice pieces if you've never done it before.

I've never tried it on one of these optics, I just did the wet sanding and then polished with Meguier's plastic cleaner and polish because I did not any spare optics. The machining on them then gluing them together had too much time invested to risk scorching it.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> MRM, thanks for all the info on these lamps. Judging from what you have said about the C&B Seen 3-up it looks like this lamp might make the perfect "economy 3-up helmet lamp" to use in combo with a BT40S on the bars. Looks like the 3-up has pretty decent throw. I'm almost tempted to buy one just to screw around with it. Still, I'm pretty much a fan-boy of the inline emitter type lamps.


Beam pattern does compliment the BT40s very well just wish emitter tint matched better (my beam shots do a poor job of showing tint differences). Still prefer the far superior throw of the 3up over the better tint match of a Yinding. While I share your preference for inline emitter configuration I've been very surprised and impressed with the 3up's throw capabilities.



> MRM, I know you own a Gemini Olympia and ITUO XP3, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how the C+Bseen 3Up compares to those, not just for output but for tint as well.


3up vs. my older Olympia: Olympia has about a 10% overall power advantage but the 3up's center-beam lux (throw) is about 10% greater. 3up has a noticeably warmer emitter tint.

3up vs. XP3: Not a very fair comparison since the XP3 makes almost twice the lumens so XP3, wider/brighter/more throw, not surprising. XP3 has a warmer emitter tint.

Good performance example for you would be to compare the 3up to my 2015 Gloworm X2 (XS optic version). 3up is like the X2 on the 90% setting (10% less bounce test lux, 10% less center-beam lux, similar beam width and very similar emitter tint to GW cool white).



> Now about the front lens on the 3up; Have you considered "flame polishing the front lens"? I've only read about people doing this but from what I've read if done right it removes all the bits on the front of the lens that disperse the light.


Vancbiker suggested doing something similar but I'm happy with the throw and beam width. Would be interesting to see how much additional throw you'd get with a polish job though.
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> Would be interesting to see how much additional throw you'd get with a polish job though.


This thread, at post #41 talks about the improved beam. Sadly it's old enough that the pic links are broken, but one forum user estimated it narrowed up the beam ~25%.

Next bar light- Mtbr.com


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Vancbiker said:


> This thread, at post #41 talks about the improved beam. Sadly it's old enough that the pic links are broken, but one forum user estimated it narrowed up the beam ~25%.
> 
> Next bar light- Mtbr.com


Thanks for the link. I think post #51 is showing something similar and I picked up a link for some youtube video's on flame polishing and general polishing of acrylic.
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

That's the pic! I had forgotten about that one. The guy that shot them used two different lights. One polished, one stock. The emitters were slightly different tints, but it does a good job showing the tighter beam with the polished optic.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Vancbiker said:


> That's the pic! I had forgotten about that one. The guy that shot them used two different lights. One polished, one stock. The emitters were slightly different tints, but it does a good job showing the tighter beam with the polished optic.


Glad I read through a few of the other posts from the link you posted. Question, is it possible to do a lowpro mount with a rear facing powercord channel? Since this is going to be used primarily as a helmet light it would be nice to make it as low as possible.
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> ......Question, is it possible to do a lowpro mount with a rear facing powercord channel? Since this is going to be used primarily as a helmet light it would be nice to make it as low as possible.
> Mole


Not going to work. Most lights power cables are 5mm or so diameter. There is only about 1.75mm of room in the adapter to go straight back. And the cable would be pinched against the GoPro mount.

There have been a couple guys that bought the plain finned LoPro adapter and drilled their own mount hole and cut a diagonal power cable channel out through the fins to the rear and side for Magicshine clones. Worked, but was kind of rough being done with handtools and dremels. If you want to try something like that, let me know and I'll see what can be done on the mill.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> I'm almost tempted to buy one just to screw around with it.


Not to tempt you but I did the "Cat-man-do" test on the 3up and it took 1 sec. from button press to shutdown!
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Got out last night with elliptical filter equipped 3up and BT40s for some more shots. Enjoyed the wider beam but it does cut down the throw a good bit. Was getting a good bit of glare too (similar levels to BT40s) but had forgot lessons learned using the bezel bonded lens filter. Exposed outside edges of filter glow pretty brightly so while I got some positive impressions of the 3up equipped this way I need to go out again with the solution I came up with (picture below) for a retest. Cut a section of old tube and pulled it over filter edges and lighthead. Looks like it will work OK. Bt40s vs. 3up pictures are to show beam pattern. Tint and intensity of shots leave a lot to be desired for showing differences between lights.
Mole









BT40s








3up w/filter








BT40s








3up w/filter








BT40s








3up w/filter


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Finally you can order these lights again. Got a email from Roger this morning that he has a delivery confirmation for today or Monday. Only other thing new is I had a remote failure. Was just a separated solder joint (should be fixable) and no questions asked was sent a new one so customer support appears to be good. Unfortunately availability seem to be the biggest problem with the 3up & 7up. Still I've been very happy/satisfied with both lights. Enjoyable to use, very good performers at a very reasonable price so I guess no wonder why they're consistently sold out.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

I ran across this link in an old thread about the Nitefighter BT70. South African vendor that sell what appears to be identical lights as C&B Seen. 25 recent reviews is why I'm posting this. Figured it would be good data for anyone interested in the 3up.
Mole

https://www.extremelights.co.za/collections/cycle-lights/products/endurance-cycle-light-2


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Are these identical lights? They look very very similar with some ever so slightly differences. The Extreme Light uses XP-L's too. Mount looks the same. 

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

garrybunk said:


> Are these identical lights? They look very very similar with some ever so slightly differences. The Extreme Light uses XP-L's too. Mount looks the same.
> 
> -Garry


Physically they look identical (lighthead/mount/remote) except for the red cables. I didn't notice the emitter difference so will check specs. a little more carefully to see if they match. I didn't care for the preset levels of the C&B Seen 3up/7up so definitely will check that. Safe bet they were made in the same factory in China.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

^^^^^
OK, looks like lower presets are similar from the lumen ratings (assuming site info. is accurate) but boost (level 3) shows a full 100% which would be an improvement from the 80% top preset on the C&B Seen light. I'd like to see preset level 2 bumped up to 50% also. No mention of programming so again I'm assuming that's not a feature on the Extreme version. Biggest and most disappointing difference is price. With current exchange rate the extreme kit is about $185 not including shipping which I wouldn't consider a very good price for such a simple light. Would be interesting to see how the XP-L emitters would change the light (should make it easier to get closer to the slightly higher 2100 lumen rating). Not interesting enough to spend that much though!
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Gopro mount option by Lezyne. Of course if your using the 3up (remote version) as a bar light it comes with a pretty good QR mount unless you have 35mm bars. Band mounts for helmet use leave a lot to be desired though and this inexpensive ($2.99 - Jensen USA) gives you a much easier to use system that depending on the mount attaches lower on the helmet. 
Mole


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Enjoying this thread mole. Thanks for being an early adopter. Do you like the tint as well as the bt40s and yinding? Does the tint wash out any trail features?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Rod said:


> Enjoying this thread mole. Thanks for being an early adopter. Do you like the tint as well as the bt40s and yinding? Does the tint wash out any trail features?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


I do prefer the tint of the BT40s but because of it's beam pattern it's also the one that washes out trail features the most. Its wide symmetrical beam just has too much foreground light for me and I get best performance from it aimed a little high and not using the turbo level. Tint on the 3up would wash out trail features if it had more power but not too noticeable as delivered (or with wide angle lens cover).
Mole


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

MRMOLE said:


> I do prefer the tint of the BT40s but because of it's beam pattern it's also the one that washes out trail features the most. Its wide symmetrical beam just has too much foreground light for me and I get best performance from it aimed a little high and not using the turbo level. Tint on the 3up would wash out trail features if it had more power but not too noticeable as delivered (or with wide angle lens cover).
> Mole


Good. to know. Thanks for clarifying. My cygolites wash out trail features and I want to avoid that. These look like excellent budget lights.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

Hello MRMOLE.

Are you still using this light? Would you still recommend it for helmet use?

It looks like C&B Seen has a new batch of lights in. The way I read the programming instructions it seems like they fixed the memory problem.

I need helmet light to try out some Samsung LH351D 4000k 90 cri led's. They probably have 30% less output than xml's and xpg3's. They also make the beam floodier but everything looks so much better to me. I tried some in an old L&M Seca 1400 and they look really good. Less light than I am used to but at trail distances I'm seeing more and recognizing things quicker.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Hmm . . . I'm hearing a lot about these new Samsung LEDs. Guess I need to jump on the bandwagon and try them out myself.

(Sorry, not intending to start posts off-topic.)

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

arc said:


> Hello MRMOLE.
> 
> Are you still using this light? Would you still recommend it for helmet use?
> 
> ...


It's been a while since I used this light but not because I don't like it (lost track of how many other new lights I've purchased since I did this review). Inability to reprogram the presets and inconsistent remote performance were the only things I remember not liking about this light but wouldn't stop me from recommending it. If they've fixed the preset programming issue (which I don't know for sure yet) that's great news. From your description of the Samsung emitters I'm not sure how they will affect this light for helmet use (less power/floodier beam aren't what I typically consider positive characteristics for helemt application + not sure how emitter die size will affect compatibility since this is a optic based light).
Mole


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

garrybunk said:


> Hmm . . . I'm hearing a lot about these new Samsung LEDs. Guess I need to jump on the bandwagon and try them out myself.
> 
> (Sorry, not intending to start posts off-topic.)
> 
> -Garry


They are pretty cheap to buy if you get them from AEDe on BLF. Led4power sells them as well.

They look a little yellow for the first couple minutes, after that 3C xml's look a little blue.

They have an xpl size die so expect a wider beam with less throw.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Thanks for the info.

-Garry


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> It's been a while since I used this light but not because I don't like it (lost track of how many other new lights I've purchased since I did this review). Inability to reprogram the presets and inconsistent remote performance were the only things I remember not liking about this light but wouldn't stop me from recommending it. If they've fixed the preset programming issue (which I don't know for sure yet) that's great news. From your description of the Samsung emitters I'm not sure how they will affect this light for helmet use (less power/floodier beam aren't what I typically consider positive characteristics for helemt application + not sure how emitter die size will affect compatibility since this is a optic based light).
> Mole


Thanks MRMOLE, that's what I wanted to hear.

Trails around here are tight and twisty, putting a light on high ends up with too much light getting reflected off the undergrowth and into your face. There's very few straight sections, I'm always looking around the next corner. These new led's seem to make recognizing what's around the bend quicker and easier. I have these led's in a flashlight with a wide angle Cute optic, they work together nicely.

They're probably not going to work that great for open trails and roads. The reduced light output means increased heat sink temperatures. Decreased throw and increased thermal throttling isn't going to work so well for heat lovers like you. They'll work much better for those of us that prefer riding in snow.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

arc said:


> Thanks MRMOLE, that's what I wanted to hear.


Actually , Thank You for posting on this old thread and giving me the incentive to take the 3up as my light for a nice little 30 mi. ride last night. Used as a bar light the remote works well and allows easy use of the programming mode which allows scrolling up and down in 10% power increments on the fly. Light has a nice personality used in this manner and very enjoyable to use.



> Trails around here are tight and twisty, putting a light on high ends up with too much light getting reflected off the undergrowth and into your face. There's very few straight sections, I'm always looking around the next corner. These new led's seem to make recognizing what's around the bend quicker and easier. I have these led's in a flashlight with a wide angle Cute optic, they work together nicely.
> 
> They're probably not going to work that great for open trails and roads. The reduced light output means increased heat sink temperatures. Decreased throw and increased thermal throttling isn't going to work so well for heat lovers like you. They'll work much better for those of us that prefer riding in snow


If you decide to do this emitter swap please let us know how it turned out and if in fact C&B Seen has fixed the preset programming issue. The ride last night jogged my memory a litttle as I noticed the light only ran warm run at 100% power and recalled it only draws 1.5A at the same setting. Not at all familar with that Samsung emitter your planning on using but figured the lights current low operating temp. and low current draw might be of interest to you.
Mole


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

Ordered the light a couple days ago, dispatched with the usual secrecy. This time they updated my account to dispatched, the last time I had no clue if the light had shipped or if the company was still in business. The last light arrived pretty fast, probably see this one late next week.

I reread the documentation, it looks like they have not fixed the programming issue. It would have been nice to pair up a bar and helmet light to the same remote and tweak the levels on one light to suit.

Are you still using the filter on the lens? I have the Cute spot optic in one flashlight and a wide angle in another. Something in the middle would be better for bar use but shipping charges kill small orders for me. I'm trying to find someone that sells the Cute optics as well as the Anna optics for the 7 led light so I can combine orders.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Not shure where you live, but I assumed US - Farnell has some CUTE optics in stock


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

arc said:


> Ordered the light a couple days ago, dispatched with the usual secrecy. This time they updated my account to dispatched, the last time I had no clue if the light had shipped or if the company was still in business. The last light arrived pretty fast, probably see this one late next week.
> 
> I reread the documentation, it looks like they have not fixed the programming issue. It would have been nice to pair up a bar and helmet light to the same remote and tweak the levels on one light to suit.


Communication difficulties has been my experience too. While responce times have been slow all transactions including a warranty claim (remote) have eventually been handled satisfactorily. Hope to some day see the preset programming issue resolved but light still a good value IMO.



> Are you still using the filter on the lens? I have the Cute spot optic in one flashlight and a wide angle in another. Something in the middle would be better for bar use but shipping charges kill small orders for me. I'm trying to find someone that sells the Cute optics as well as the Anna optics for the 7 led light so I can combine orders.


Haven't used the filter lately but again not because it doesn't work well. I've been wanting to get a nice long mtn. ride in with the Bontrager Ion 1300 I've been testing (helmet mounted) and the 3up w/filter (bar mounted) would make a good combo so maybe sometime in the next few days I'll put the filter back on and give it a go. Not tonight though, 49 mi. fast for me group road ride Thursday night and 50 mi. on the fatbike last night have left my legs tight and heavy feeling and convinced today should be a recovery day. Was 108F as I rode away from my house for last nights ride and supposed to be as hot or hotter today so don't mind taking the day off the bike.
Mole


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

That's some crazy heat mole. I'm complaining about 90

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Rod said:


> That's some crazy heat mole. I'm complaining about 90
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


Humidity was in the teens which makes it easier to handle + I'm used to this in the summer. Full Camelpack of ice water helps too!
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

While last nights ride wasn't the best (cut sidewall, broken cleat, mount problems with my helmet light) it wasn't in any way because C&B Seen 3up + wide angle lens cover that I was using as a bar light. Easy modification of adding this elliptical style lens cover yelds a very wide, smooth beam pattern that still has good throw and worked excellent for the slower speed rough trails I rode and the MUP's I took to get to the trail. Inexpensive Action-LED-Lights wide angle lens cover + a small piece of 1.5in. tube to hold it in place (plus block side lighting from edge of lens cover) is all you need to convert the 3up's wide spot beam to very useful wide angle beam for bar use.
Mole


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Nice review and beam pic's MRM. I forget if you mentioned this or not but are the C & B seen lamps using NW emitters?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> Nice review and beam pic's MRM. I forget if you mentioned this or not but are the C & B seen lamps using NW emitters?


Warmish cool white similar to what you get with Gloworm or Ravemen lights. Jim @ Action-LED-Lights might be willing to do emitter swaps on these (I'm sure he'd need to look at the lights first).
Mole


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

My light arrived, it took three weeks for delivery. 

I ordered just the light head but they sent the full kit instead. Perhaps the inclusion of the battery made shipping into Canada slower.

I have better battery packs and don't plan on using this one much. I would return it but shipping batteries in Canada is a can of worms that I'd rather not open.

The light had a pretty powerful hotspot, but the beam was too narrow for trail use around here. The tint is on the cooler side of neutral white. The programming issue remains.

The XPG-3's were replaced with 4000k 90cri Samsung LH351d's. The beam is much wider now but the output on high is lower, it does not come close to an Ituo XP3 on medium. It should be fine the way it is now for snow biking. 70cri LH351d's would have been a better choice. I might try them at some point or wait for the new Luxeon v2's.

The light comes apart easily. Pop the button out, remove the mount and bezel. Poke something in the switch hole and gently push the driver out the front. While doing this make sure there is always slack in the power cable.

The pill is a flat plate for the mcpcb with a tube on the back side. There is a notch the full length of the tube where the power cable enters the light. The driver is a round two board design that press fits in the back of the tube. Six pins connect the boards together. The switch is soldered onto the driver. I did not see a sense resistor so its probably on the backside of the power board. The three led's are in series.

There wasn't any thermal compound but the heat sinking is decent enough without it. The mcpcb is glued on, probably destroy it trying to remove it. Heating it past reflow temperature had no effect so I swapped led's with the pill attached to mcpcb.

I powered the light up with a power supply. The light will stay on high as the voltage drops to about 6 volts. Then it keeps stepping down and the led's turn off around three volts. 

Pretty decent light for the money. Fix the programming issue, add a go pro mount, switch to a medium beam Cute optic and bump the power up a bit would make it an absolute steal at twice the price.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback arc; all I could ask for would be pics . Yep, this light seems like it's "so close, but no cigar".

-Garry


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

garrybunk said:


> Thanks for the feedback arc; all I could ask for would be pics . Yep, this light seems like it's "so close, but no cigar".
> 
> -Garry


 I have a crappy cell phone pic, one of these days I'll have to sign up for one of those picture hosting sites and start posting pictures. Once winter is over I plan to cut the jumper pins holding the driver boards together and see what's in there. Those 4000k 90cri led's are very good in fog so I have high hopes for falling snow visibility. I don't want to risk killing the driver at this time.

The light as is is a very good value, BT40s price range with a decent remote and a very good bar mount. The cute optics are compatible with a lot of different led's and come in varying beam angles. Swapping led's is pretty easy and being xp based gives you access to so many different leds. No other light can be customized like this at any price point.

The driver is a bit of a weak point for modding. Getting to the sense resistor sucks but there is room for a taller inductor if someone wants to really crank the little light up. One of Vanc's go pro mounts would help here. I'm on the fence about trying this with this light, might be better off modding a Convoy L4 host. One of Lexel's buck drivers running Anduril would be so nice.

I think my light was last year's stock. Recently the seven led light was removed from the website. Everything else is in stock so I'm hoping he just ran out and is waiting on new stock. Maybe the remote gets fixed this time around and the next batch of 3up's gets fixed next batch as well.

The 7up is much more powerful and doesn't cost much more. It's a little heavy and bulky for helmet use though. The construction is the same, everything is just a bit bigger. I failed to measure the driver, can't say for sure if it is bigger or if they are the same.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

arc said:


> The light as is is a very good value, BT40s price range with a decent remote and a very good bar mount. The cute optics are compatible with a lot of different led's and come in varying beam angles. Swapping led's is pretty easy and being xp based gives you access to so many different leds. No other light can be customized like this at any price point.
> .


Good value and good performance. I'll have to look into the cute optics but like the standard one for helmet use and the fact that adding an elliptical lens cover externally makes a very nice flood without all the reflective glare of the BT40s that I don't care for. Swapping emitters out for warmer XPG3's would retain most of the power of the stock set up so this might be a good option for those wanting true neutral white. Love to see them redo the programming to make presets adjustable or at least alter current preset settings (maybe 20/50/100%) to allow for use of 100% power for those not interested in the remote. I kind of like operating the light in the programming mode since you can still adjust light optput 10% - 100% on the fly but also have the option of scrolling light output up or down.



> The 7up is much more powerful and doesn't cost much more. It's a little heavy and bulky for helmet use though. The construction is the same, everything is just a bit bigger. I failed to measure the driver, can't say for sure if it is bigger or if they are the same


FYI my 7up doesn't do as well in warmer temps. and will step down when used in the higher modes over 90 degrees. May not react well to modding because of this.
Mole

*Cheap Gopro mount!*

https://www.jensonusa.com/Lezyne-Go-Pro-Led-Adapter


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

arc said:


> I think my light was last year's stock. Recently the seven led light was removed from the website. Everything else is in stock so I'm hoping he just ran out and is waiting on new stock. Maybe the remote gets fixed this time around and the next batch of 3up's gets fixed next batch as well.


As per an email I got from C&B Seen today the 7up should be back in stock in about 3 weeks. I had contacted them a few days ago about another matter but also asked about the absence of the 7up on the website. When the 7up's are in stock again I'll inquire about the perset programming on the new batch.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Not quite sure why but I purchased another one of these 3up lights. I haven't ridden with the new one yet but I did find a few differences. First the price went up a bit (($48 to $60). I had noticed an increase a while back but was expecting less of a difference. Come to find out Paypal charges for currency exchange, good to know for any future UK purchases. Next was a slight appearance difference as the bezel is now silver instead of black. The final change (so far) will require contacting C&B Seen about a possible spec. change. Lux readings comparing the old 3up to the new one are a little confusing. Bounce test lux is almost identical but max lux readings were up over 25% equaling those I got from my 2017 Gloworm X2 (wow!). This in turn inspired me to check the current draw which was .25a greater than my original 3up. Pretty significant increase in max lux compared to how small the current draw increased and still doesn't explain why the bounce test lux readings were almost identical on the two different lights (?). Definately going to have to play around with these lights and try to find an explanation for the unusual readings.
Mole


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

It might be difference in leds used. See if you can notice any difference. What about tint, are the same?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

ledoman said:


> It might be difference in leds used. See if you can notice any difference. What about tint, are the same?


I thought about the led's, there's a vendor in South Africa that sell an identical looking light with xpl instead of xpg3's. Not sure I'd know the difference loking at them but it'susually indicated on the pcb. Haven't even run both lights at the same time or outside yet. Should get a chance to ride with them tonight. If I notice anything I'll post it. Thanks!
Mole


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

If you take pictures of them I can help to identify. Also those galleries might help you: LED Gallery - Flashlight Wiki
LEDs & Other Stuff - (Reference Guide) | BudgetLightForum.com - awesome post with "all you ever wanted to know"


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

ledoman said:


> If you take pictures of them I can help to identify. Also those galleries might help you: LED Gallery - Flashlight Wiki
> LEDs & Other Stuff - (Reference Guide) | BudgetLightForum.com - awesome post with "all you ever wanted to know"


OK, here you go. Optic on the older light would not come loose from the pcb but more interested in the new one anyway. Also took a side shot of the optic to show the cone depth.

















Last nights ride I had both lights mounted on the bars. Easily noticeable difference in the beam. Older light's beam is a bit wider and preferable for the mup I rode last night. New light definitely more spot specific but my intended use for the light was helmet mounted so additional throw/narrower beam should be a positive benefit. 
Mole


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Could it be the spot beam on the new light is making the lux reading higher?

Looks like the new light head might be a tad bit larger as well?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Mole, to me they looks Cree XP-G2 mounted in series. It could be the optics is bit different or differently aligned.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

mb323323 said:


> Could it be the spot beam on the new light is making the lux reading higher?
> 
> Looks like the new light head might be a tad bit larger as well?


Bezel color may make the light look different but lighthead dementions are the same. Yes, narrower focus would also raise max. lux numbers with little effect on bounce test readings with the way I test (2 meter distance) and considering beam widths of both lights. Why there's a narrower focused spot beam on the new light is what I'm curious about since there's been no spec. that I know of. Contacting C&B Seen may reveal something but in the end the new light will work better for my planned usage.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

ledoman said:


> Mole, to me they looks Cree XP-G2 mounted in series. It could be the optics is bit different or differently aligned.


Thanks. Unfortunate I can't get a look at the old lights emitters and optic. New one came right out but worried I might break something if I try any more force to free the optic on the original light. Still hope C&B Seen may have some info. on a spec. change. Site shows nothing but they've always been slow to update things. Starting to look like this may remain a mystery????
Mole


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I think you can safely pry out optics by very small gentle shifts on the sides. Don't think you can damage anything if you do it carefully. Of course, it's up to you to decide.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

mb323323 said:


> Could it be the spot beam on the new light is making the lux reading higher?
> 
> Looks like the new light head might be a tad bit larger as well?


Might be but Ledil CUTE optic is (most likely) the same, so size should not be an issue.


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> As per an email I got from C&B Seen today the 7up should be back in stock in about 3 weeks. I had contacted them a few days ago about another matter but also asked about the absence of the 7up on the website. When the 7up's are in stock again I'll inquire about the perset programming on the new batch.
> Mole


The 7up is listed on the site again but shows out of stock.

It looks like the programming instructions for both lights have changed a bit, they might have fixed the mode power level programming problem. My memory ain't the greatest but I don't remember the last sentence looking like this.

"Please see the accompanying instructions which contain more detailed information on the operation of the
light and it's features an also a separate sheet which details the programmable functions available with the
remote.will be published shortly on the website explaining how to use the Progammable features of the
Lamp/Remote combination. This includes how to 'Pair' a new Remote, how to change the factory preset
Mode power levels, and how to use the Remote to allow you to fine tune your light settings in 10%
increments whilst riding."


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

ledoman said:


> Might be but Ledil CUTE optic is (most likely) the same, so size should not be an issue.


It looks like a Cute S/S.

I ended up cracking one of the optic's legs, then I cracked a second leg and broke off the end in the mcpcb. Then I cut all the legs off and just tightened the bezel down. Beam looks fine, possibly a bit floodier.

Chances are the legs broke due to over-tightening the bezel. I cranked it down pretty good thinking the mcpcb needed to be pressed onto the pill to keep the led's from overheating. They use thermal adhesive to fasten the mcpcb, pressure doesn't matter. The bezel just needs to be tight enough to keep from vibrating loose.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

arc said:


> The 7up is listed on the site again but shows out of stock.
> 
> It looks like the programming instructions for both lights have changed a bit, they might have fixed the mode power level programming problem. My memory ain't the greatest but I don't remember the last sentence looking like this.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately I wouldn't get excited about minor changes in the wording of their description. I've seen wording changes before but programming operation always stays the same.
The first C&B Seen light I purchased was the 7up and at that time the programming instructions included "how to reset the presets" whcih of course didn't work. If they put that back in the instructions I'd be a lot more hopeful.



> It looks like a Cute S/S.
> 
> I ended up cracking one of the optic's legs, then I cracked a second leg and broke off the end in the mcpcb. Then I cut all the legs off and just tightened the bezel down. Beam looks fine, possibly a bit floodier.
> 
> Chances are the legs broke due to over-tightening the bezel. I cranked it down pretty good thinking the mcpcb needed to be pressed onto the pill to keep the led's from overheating. They use thermal adhesive to fasten the mcpcb, pressure doesn't matter. The bezel just needs to be tight enough to keep from vibrating loose.


Thanks for sharing this. I'm still curious why my two lights peform differently but still feel I would end up with a broken optic or worse if I used any more force than what I've already tried to free up the optic. Still no word back from C&B Seen on any spec. changes. Newest light produces about 70 more lumens (5%) but just under 30% more max. lux so still convinced something is different.
Mole


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## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

Ledoman is probably right about it being an XPG2. It may be older but it is a better led than the xpg3. Smaller die so it throws better and better colour distribution across the beam. For equivalent bins they produce the same amount of light per amp. The Xpg3 does it at a little less voltage so its a little more efficient and runs a bit cooler. Also the boost driver in the light will have to work harder to make the extra voltage so expect it to run a little hotter.

It sounds like your optic legs got glued in. They're normally a snug fit but not so tight that it would risk breaking the legs off in assembly.

The pins on the end of the legs are really small and softer than the mcpcb. It shouldn't be too hard to drill them out if they break off and the optic itself is cheap enough, but at the same time it wouldn't be any fun.

I think the luxeon V2 and Luminous sst-20 in 4000k would work great in that light. Better quality beam than Cree has plus a nice low forward voltage. Its a shame that sticking optic is in the way of an led swap.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

arc said:


> Ledoman is probably right about it being an XPG2. It may be older but it is a better led than the xpg3. Smaller die so it throws better and better colour distribution across the beam. For equivalent bins they produce the same amount of light per amp. The Xpg3 does it at a little less voltage so its a little more efficient and runs a bit cooler. Also the boost driver in the light will have to work harder to make the extra voltage so expect it to run a little hotter.


I wasn't familiar with the differences between the xpg2 & 3 but that and the slightly higher current draw on the newest of my 3up's would explain what I'm seeing in beam characteristics and lux readings. I have a infrared thermometer so I should probably do some thermal tests on the light to make sure there's no significant differences in operating temperature. Thanks for this info.:thumbsup:



> It sounds like your optic legs got glued in. They're normally a snug fit but not so tight that it would risk breaking the legs off in assembly.
> 
> The pins on the end of the legs are really small and softer than the mcpcb. It shouldn't be too hard to drill them out if they break off and the optic itself is cheap enough, but at the same time it wouldn't be any fun.


I came to the same conclusion that those locating pins must have been glued in. Light performs well so not worth risking breakage to confirm the emitters are different.
Mole


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I agree it is not worth it. Probably there is thermal glue used and lighht was assembled before glue get cured.

For educational purposes here is most comprehensive post on BLF for flashlight leds I've ever seen.

LEDs & Other Stuff - (Reference Guide) | BudgetLightForum.com

Look and enjoy


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

^^^ holy crap, that is a rabbit hole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

With a current Yinding thread active I thought I'd reactivate this one too since I consider it a much better light for only a little more money. As a refresher the last 3up I got measured out at a full 1500 lumens (50% more than the Yinding) and more than doubled the max lux numbers of the Yinding (equaling Gloworm latest X2 readings) + required less current than the Yinding and only about 60% of what the X2 does to achieve this. It also runs fine in 100° weather and can be purchased with a wireless remote. Control functions/mode output settings are its weakness but worth putting up with for such a high performance low cost light (IMO).
Mole


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## McGuillicuddy (Jul 14, 2007)

Are these guys still operating? Everything is out of stock. Covid I'm guessing.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

McGuillicuddy said:


> Are these guys still operating? Everything is out of stock. Covid I'm guessing.


They've had supply problems in the past but I really don't know about their current status (sorry). Trying to get a response from them has also been difficult so no quick way to find out that I know of. I post here if I hear anything.
Mole


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