# El Mariachi vs Krampus vs ECR



## Philthyssvirgin (Nov 13, 2013)

I did a seach and couldn't find a good comparison. First post So hope I put this in the right place. The wife agreed to let me invest in a new ride this spring/summer. I have narrowed down my choices to the three listed, based on what I want to to do. Athough I have never bike packed I am obsessed and working on my first trip. That being said thats my driving motivation for the three choices. They all seem to be solid bikes. My other bikes include a SS rigid karate monkey (which i do the majority of my mtb riding), and a novara ponderosa 29er hard tail (mainly for cruising around town). So this new addition would need to be fun to ride, as capable loaded as it is with just a water bottle, dependable, and availability to add an internal rear hub (daydreaming about rohloff). I love the idea of simplisity! I was sold on the el mariachi until I met the 29+ Krampus. I was futher torn when I read about the 29+ ECR. I have time to decide but test rides are tough in St. Louis when the Krampus is the only stocked bike Ive seen. I have seen countless reviews of each bike, but a comparison or owners opinions are hard to come by.

I apprecite all the input!

sorry if I missed an identical prevous thread


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## Owlish (Oct 22, 2012)

FWIW (and I confess I never follow this advice, but I always wish that I had . . .), at least do an S24O before you decide. The Karate Monkey is a very capable bikepacking rig. Get out there and do a trip or two. I guarantee it will change your perspective more than any test ride.


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## sherpaxc (Aug 12, 2005)

Sounds lame, but...It's not about the bike. You already have a great one to use. Use it. Too many people spend too much time thinking about bikes and gear and never really make it out the door. 

Go ride one of your bikes on a trip first. I bet you love it.


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## Philthyssvirgin (Nov 13, 2013)

owlish said:


> fwiw (and i confess i never follow this advice, but i always wish that i had . . .), at least do an s24o before you decide. The karate monkey is a very capable bikepacking rig. Get out there and do a trip or two. I guarantee it will change your perspective more than any test ride.


s240?


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

sub 24 hour overnight. go ride your karate monkey into the woods and stay there. when you come out of the woods, you'll realize your KM is a fine steed and the money can be spent on new camping gear and bags and tires and such.


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## Philthyssvirgin (Nov 13, 2013)

Gotcha that's actually my plan before it gets cold. Possibly even have somebody shuttle me out and ride back on our epic local. This is one of those budget issues that if I don't use it I'll loose it. I love my KM and use it regularly, but I would like to have a suspension or 3" tire to eat up some bumps. Plus I would like the bike to be geared. I want the KM to stay rigid and ss but over 30 miles of singletrack might not be... Well comfortable. One reason I bought the KM was the versatility but I choose to keep it ss and rigid. Great suggestions I do appreciate it but I hope that makes sense why I'm looking for the geared bikepacking bike.


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## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

Check out the Surly and Salsa forums for some specific info on each bike. Each bike (including what you currently own) is plenty capable, but I understand wanting something new, especially if your wife is ok with it


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## Iamrockandroll13 (Feb 10, 2013)

I wouldn't get an El Mariachi unless I was planning on getting rid of the Karate Monkey, they are too similar. A Krampus and an ECR have the same geometry but are set up differently as completes. The ECR is going to be better for bikepacking, but there's nothing stopping you from throwing a normal riser or flat bar on it and shredding like it was a Krampus. Ultimately though I would consider getting an Ogre fork or a Fargo fork for your Karate Monkey, maybe build a 29+ front wheel ( it will fit) and spending the money you would spend on the new bike on a wicked sweet bike packing gear set-up. The lighter your gear, the more fun you will have doing this.

You could also get a suspension fork for your KM, a threadless fork is very easy to swap out if you can align a brake caliper.


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## Philthyssvirgin (Nov 13, 2013)

sasquatch rides a SS said:


> Check out the Surly and Salsa forums for some specific info on each bike. Each bike (including what you currently own) is plenty capable, but I understand wanting something new, especially if your wife is ok with it


Thanks great advise! I did look on both surly and salsa forums. I also looked on YouTube and other forums that's how I found ECR. I was hoping for some practical application. I'd love to get an opinion from some one who has used the mariachi and krampus (ECR will be tough cause heard it's not out yet) in a BPing application. The other problem is, correct me if I'm wrong but the 29+ class is a new niche. Not a ton of info.


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## Philthyssvirgin (Nov 13, 2013)

Iamrockandroll13 said:


> I wouldn't get an El Mariachi unless I was planning on getting rid of the Karate Monkey, they are too similar. A Krampus and an ECR have the same geometry but are set up differently as completes. The ECR is going to be better for bikepacking, but there's nothing stopping you from throwing a normal riser or flat bar on it and shredding like it was a Krampus. Ultimately though I would consider getting an Ogre fork or a Fargo fork for your Karate Monkey, maybe build a 29+ front wheel ( it will fit) and spending the money you would spend on the new bike on a wicked sweet bike packing gear set-up. The lighter your gear, the more fun you will have doing this.
> 
> You could also get a suspension fork for your KM, a threadless fork is very easy to swap out if you can align a brake caliper.


Wanted to keep the KM rigid/ss pure it's my training bike. but I thought about the ogre fork. But was under the impression that it would have to be a 26" pugsly type setup. For that matter I'd consider a Mukluk frame with 29+ wheel set. As far as the ECR that almost sounds like the most versatile. With the availability fenders and racks or frame bags. Another question what's more durable el mar front sus fork or a 29x 3" knard I heard the sidewalls are bittersweet. Soft to allow for flex/traction/float but puncture easy.


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## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

Since you've got some time, be sure to do a lot research on the different bikes. The Krampus and ECR do NOT have the same geometry, so make sure to really consider how you'll be riding the bike for the majority of the time. Talk to vikb about bike packing on a Krampus, he is a wealth of knowledge on the topic. There is a ton of info on MTBR on the Krampus (I mean a TON), and I would assume the same for the El Mariachi, more will come rushing in on the ECR with time. There is already a lot of info on that bike outside of MTBR. Good luck in your search :thumbsup: I do suggest trying 29+, my Krampus is a fantastic bike, definitely my favorite!


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## Iamrockandroll13 (Feb 10, 2013)

I stand corrected, just checked out the actual geo charts and they are quite different. I was just eyeballed them and they looked the same, much like the KM/Ogre.


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## ECR (Sep 25, 2013)

I believe the 29" Rabbit Hole with Knard fits on the front of the Karate Monkey. Why don't you try that first?


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## willapajames (Dec 18, 2005)

This is completely unhelpful, but I've got an El Mariachi and it's awesome. But I really wish I had a Krampus as well. 
While it's an awesome looking bike, I don't really get the point of the ECR. To me, it seems like a laid back Krampus with the ability to haul more ****. Personally, I try to carry as little stuff as possible, so I would definitely choose the Krampus over the ECR. However, I've ridden neither of them...


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

I've enjoyed bikepacking with my Krampus this last year. It has a Rohloff since you mentioned that was of interest to you.

It's a very capable bike you can setup a lot of different ways.

Having said that if you own a Karate Monkey I would just start riding on that. There is no place I've gone on my Krampus that I couldn't go on a KM.

You can set it up with a 1 x 10 for some gears a lot cheaper than buying a new bike. Swapping between 1 x 10 and SS isn't a huge chore if you want to keep it simple for trail riding.

Once you have some bikepacking experience under your belt you will be in a much better position to determine what bike would be ideal for your needs.

Comparison reviews are a bit tough - especially given the ECR is still just starting to trickle out. You could leave a comment for Cass over at While Out Riding Blog. He has toured on an Ogre and a Krampus so at least you'd get some idea of the difference between the bike you have and one of the 29+ options.

I've never ridden an El Mar and unlikely to ever ride an ECR.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

willapajames said:


> While it's an awesome looking bike, I don't really get the point of the ECR. To me, it seems like a laid back Krampus with the ability to haul more ****. Personally, I try to carry as little stuff as possible, so I would definitely choose the Krampus over the ECR. However, I've ridden neither of them...












Just to clarify there is nothing you are going to haul with an ECR you can't haul with a Krampus.

You can put water bottle cages on the Krampus DT [see pic in post above] on the fork legs and on the stem. You can haul dual racks and panniers if you like. You can haul a trailer with the Krampus.

The important difference between the two is the geometry and BB height.

That's how I would select between the Krampus and the ECR not based on a few brazeons that you don't need to mount stuff.


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## senor_mikey (Apr 25, 2009)

vikb said:


> Comparison reviews are a bit tough - especially given the ECR is still just starting to trickle out. You could leave a comment for Cass over at While Out Riding Blog. He has toured on a KM and a Krampus so at least you'd get some idea of the difference between the bike you have and one of the 29+ options.


Cass rides an Ogre actually, almost identical to the KM, just missing a few braze-ons.

Reviews on the ECR are starting to trickle out. All have been positive about the bike and ride. Obviously, since the Krampus has been out for a while there are many more reviews to read. The one note I would make is that the Krampus BB drop is even higher than the KM or Ogre so with the designed 3" tires you will sit another ~ inch higher. I'm one of those who like lower BB so the ECR makes more sense to me, but the guys on Krampus's don't seem to notice any issues so you'd have decide for yourself.

So my recommendation would be for an ECR or Krampus as they are more adaptable. 3" tires one day off road and a 2.2 or 2.3 tire ( like the Scwalbe Big Apple) for more mixed terrain.

mike


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## Philthyssvirgin (Nov 13, 2013)

vikb said:


> I've enjoyed bikepacking with my Krampus this last year. It has a Rohloff since you mentioned that was of interest to you.
> 
> It's a very capable bike you can setup a lot of different ways.
> 
> ...


Can you elaborate as to whether or not the knards are durable? Do people run them tubless? How many spare tires are people bringing? I liked the idea of the Krampus serving two purposes, fun/BPing. If the Krampus can carry everything the ECR can, then whats cheaper?


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Philthyssvirgin said:


> Can you elaborate as to whether or not the knards are durable? Do people run them tubless? How many spare tires are people bringing? I liked the idea of the Krampus serving two purposes, fun/BPing. If the Krampus can carry everything the ECR can, then whats cheaper?


Knards are not particularly durable. I don't carry a spare tire on tour. I figure I can kludge something together good enough to get me back to the trailhead. So far I have had one pinch flat [my fault for running too low pressure] and one legit flat [sliver of rock or wood]. This is all BC riding.

I run my Knards tubed, but other people run them tubeless successfully.

I have no idea what the retail cost of a Krampus vs. an ECR would be, but I think it's a mistake to buy on price given neither will be cheap. Look at the geometry and BB height as well as the sizing. Possibly the parts spec. I would pick based on those factors.


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

willapajames said:


> While it's an awesome looking bike, I don't really get the point of the ECR.


You and me both.


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## Philthyssvirgin (Nov 13, 2013)

vikb said:


> Knards are not particularly durable. I don't carry a spare tire on tour. I figure I can kludge something together good enough to get me back to the trailhead. So far I have had one pinch flat [my fault for running too low pressure] and one legit flat [sliver of rock or wood]. This is all BC riding.
> 
> I run my Knards tubed, but other people run them tubeless successfully.
> 
> I have no idea what the retail cost of a Krampus vs. an ECR would be, but I think it's a mistake to buy on price given neither will be cheap. Look at the geometry and BB height as well as the sizing. Possibly the parts spec. I would pick based on those factors.


From what I read:
ECR bottom bracket height is lower than Krampus (dont know exact numbers) and the ECR chainstays are longer than krampus. I believe (dont quote me) the price is $2000 ECR vs $1700 Krampus. So whats your preference lowered BB stretcher bike loaded with brazeons or its brother taller BB shorter and ready for technical trails. Sounds like both are heavy, but who cares.


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## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

willapajames said:


> ...I don't really get the point of the ECR...


Why not? It's the first time Surly has truly designated a trail from a touring mountain bike for a given wheel size based on geometry. The Troll vs. 1x1 and Ogre vs. KM have almost, if not completely identical geometry. That means that really the only difference between a Troll and 1x1 or Ogre and KM are the braze-ons and color. The ECR actually is a completely different bike from the Krampus, which I think serves a great purpose. Now you truly have 2 choices from Surly with a 29+ wheel, not just two identical bikes, one with braze-ons and one without, like you get with their other bikes. This pleases both trail riders and touring riders, without having to make them use the same bike for both purposes. ECR is a great choice from Surly IMO.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Philthyssvirgin said:


> From what I read:
> ECR bottom bracket height is lower than Krampus (dont know exact numbers) and the ECR chainstays are longer than krampus. I believe (dont quote me) the price is $2000 ECR vs $1700 Krampus. So whats your preference lowered BB stretcher bike loaded with brazeons or its brother taller BB shorter and ready for technical trails. Sounds like both are heavy, but who cares.


I bought the Krampus in a medium vs. a large to get a shorter more manoeuvrable bike. I also live in very rocky & rooty terrain so I like the higher BB. I wanted a mountain bike to tour on which is what the Krampus is. The big wheels/tires add a ton of stability when the bike is moving so I've had no issues on that front.

I should note that the Krampus' BB height with RHs and Knards is ~12" with me on the bike. That's not particularly high compared to the other MTBs I ride.

I bought my Krampus as a frame/fork so the parts spec on the complete and overall cost played no part in my decision.


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## ECR (Sep 25, 2013)

Folks who have never ridden the ECR not getting it, I wonder why? ...lol

Folks I talk with that have actually ridden both Krampus and ECR say overall they preferred the handling of the ECR especially if they were going to be traveling any distance, but hey what do they know? Do you think perhaps the folks at Surly just might be getting it? The BB on the ECR is already taller than both the Troll and Ogre and nearly same height as the Karate Monkey. Now why do you think they didn't make it any taller?

YMMV (after you have ridden one)


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## ECR (Sep 25, 2013)

vikb said:


> Just to clarify there is nothing you are going to haul with an ECR you can't haul with a Krampus.


that's a bold statement!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

ECR said:


> that's a bold statement!


I can haul more than 2 growlers on my Krampus without breaking a sweat.


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## Philthyssvirgin (Nov 13, 2013)

ECR said:


> that's a bold statement!


now thats a beautiful thing!!!


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## Rednblackbike (Apr 8, 2012)

I have a single speed el mariachi that I absolutely love. I imagined I'd do all my bikepacking from it but am now dead set on the ECR. I want those big tires and I prefer the geometry to the Krampus for touring. Lower BB, longer chainstays, shorter top tube, and a lower front end (shorter fork). The complete ECR should be a pretty good deal the downsides being the hubs and 27tpi tires. I also personally dislike those Microsoft thumbies, although I can imagine a touring bike being the best application for them. Just something else to think about. How are the knards on dirt roads and pavement? My one hang up is, being in the northeast, I don't want stretches of road to be completely miserable....


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## ECR (Sep 25, 2013)

My only experience with Knards has been a couple test rides, but from my experience I can say the handling on both dirt and asphalt roads was superb. I imagine that asphalt is going to wear your Knard quicker, but if you gotta ride 'em on asphalt occasionally to get where you're go'n don't deprive yourself of a good time!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Rednblackbike said:


> How are the knards on dirt roads and pavement? My one hang up is, being in the northeast, I don't want stretches of road to be completely miserable....


I've done lots of forest service road riding on Knards are they roll great on that terrain. I've done a full day of pavement riding to close of a loop off dirt on a tour and it was fine. As mountain bike tires go the Knards roll well on hard surfaces. I wouldn't go out of my way to ride paved roads with them, but a day of it here and there on tour isn't going to be an issue.

Knards aren't a super durable tire so you can wear out the 27tpi stock units and replace them with whatever you like.


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## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

Rednblackbike said:


> ...How are the knards on dirt roads and pavement?...


They roll pretty well if you run a higher psi. I did a 12 mile paved ride with my Krampus with the tires pretty firm and had no issues, along with other random bits of pavement use. It actually rode surprisingly well. The tight tread and round profile really help with pavement and dry hardpack, much better than any other offroad tires with very open tread and square profile. The Knards will wear out fast with a lot of pavement use, though.


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## ECR (Sep 25, 2013)

Rednblackbike said:


> The complete ECR should be a pretty good deal the downsides being the hubs and 27tpi tires. I also personally dislike those Microsoft thumbies, although I can imagine a touring bike being the best application for them. Just something else to think about.


Do you have LBS who could build you one? My LBS will build a stock Surly for less than a complete bike. They give something like a 25% discount on parts when they build the bike for you. Then you can also have them substitute any parts you want for the build. With the savings you could probably upgrade the hubs and tires and still save money over the cost of a stock bike. Doesn't cost anything to get a quote.


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## Rednblackbike (Apr 8, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback Re: Knards on pavement. Thats exactly what I wanted to hear and am now even more excited for the ECR. Im not expecting to spend much time on the pavement, mostly trail, double track, and dirt road (up here in vermont we have more dirt than pavement). Thanks for the feedback y'all.


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## Philthyssvirgin (Nov 13, 2013)

Well then I'm pretty sold on the krampus or ECR I guess I just need to test ride. Whats wrong with the hubs? Any other 29+ tire options yet?


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Philthyssvirgin said:


> Any other 29+ tire options yet?












Vee 8 - not released yet as far as I know.










Surly Dirt Wizard supposed to be out spring 2014.

Nothing else that I am aware of besides the Knard.


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## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

Looking forward to those Dirt Wizards :thumbsup:


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## Rednblackbike (Apr 8, 2012)

Oh, nothings wrong with the hubs. Rear is a basic shimano and front is the Surly ultra-new. Both are a good value - a little on the heavy side, but then again it might not make sense to try to make one of these "super light". I personally wouldnt want to rely on that shimano hub out in the back country. The surly front hub is totally fine and easy to work with.


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## jan_nikolajsen (Oct 28, 2011)

Correct judgment on the Shimano rear hubs. I work in a MTB rental shop and this year we have replaced upwards of 50 Shimano freehub bodies on SLX and XT level hubs. All of them failed completely in the field, giving customers only one option; a long walk out. They were mostly 12x142 thru axle hubs, as opposed to the lower tier quick release M529 supplied with the Krampus, which actually could be a stronger unit. But overall I have completely lost confidence, and I have been a staunch Shimano supporter for years.


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## Philthyssvirgin (Nov 13, 2013)

jan_nikolajsen said:


> Correct judgment on the Shimano rear hubs. I work in a MTB rental shop and this year we have replaced upwards of 50 Shimano freehub bodies on SLX and XT level hubs. All of them failed completely in the field, giving customers only one option; a long walk out. They were mostly 12x142 thru axle hubs, as opposed to the lower tier quick release M529 supplied with the Krampus, which actually could be a stronger unit. But overall I have completely lost confidence, and I have been a staunch Shimano supporter for years.


Now that I think about it I had a shimano SLX hub fail (on a 2011 bike)on me two summers ago. I marked it up as a fluke. Although I'm not sure of the part number it sounds a little too ironic. My end goal is to run a rohloff so might as well run a stock drivetrain 1x10 and switch it out when I have the cash.


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## Philthyssvirgin (Nov 13, 2013)

Other than cycle monkey or eBay anybody know where to pick up used or discounted rohloff?


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## willapajames (Dec 18, 2005)

jan_nikolajsen said:


> Correct judgment on the Shimano rear hubs. I work in a MTB rental shop and this year we have replaced upwards of 50 Shimano freehub bodies on SLX and XT level hubs. All of them failed completely in the field, giving customers only one option; a long walk out. They were mostly 12x142 thru axle hubs, as opposed to the lower tier quick release M529 supplied with the Krampus, which actually could be a stronger unit. But overall I have completely lost confidence, and I have been a staunch Shimano supporter for years.


The good thing about Shimano freehubs is they're widely available and easy to replace. The Formula/Salsa hub on my El Mariachi **** the bed (free hub siezed up) and I replaced it with an XT/Mavic setup, as I've had great luck with that setup. The Stans rims seem quite wimpy too.


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## Rednblackbike (Apr 8, 2012)

Yeah, availability is in your favor with shimano, but it's not just the freehub. I've got a feeling the hub doesn't handle (disk) braking force very well and it seems like this translates as the drive side cone and locknut loosening from each other. Call me crazy, but I've seen those suckers tightened down really well and still after not too long that drive side cone has tightened itself down against the bearings wrecking the cone, the beings, and sometimes the cup. I just wouldn't trut in the middle of nowhere. 

Krampus vs ECR, that's a pickle. I know plenty who bikepack just fine from their Krampus. Maybe think about how you wnt to ride the thing without all the gear for a camping trip? If you want a ripping trail bike when your not touring, the krampus would be wise. If you want a day-tripper with more stability then the ECR might be more enjoyable.


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## jan_nikolajsen (Oct 28, 2011)

Right, the loosening (or over-tightening) of cones/nuts during use is another longstanding Shimano hub disorder.

The hub to have on an adventure bike, IMO, is a DT Swiss 350. The part that typical fail on a freehub is the pawl/ratchet mechanism. On the DT hubs one can carry a spare set of star ratchets basically without any weight penalty, and (the most important part) replace them using no tools besides one's hands. 

Yes, $200 is steep, and not everybody is willing to pony up that sort of dough for merely a hub. But in our area the freehub is one of the three most common things that will turn a bike ride into a hike for the unprepared, therefore I think worthy of a back-up plan. The other two are flats, off course, and broken chains, both easily covered with simple means.

EDIT: Forgot to point out the ease of replacing broken spokes on 350 rear hubs when the cassette can be removed without tools.


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## Rednblackbike (Apr 8, 2012)

Thoughts on Rims? Happy with rabbit holes? Should I wait for the Velocity Dually or the potential Stan's offering? All will be similarly priced. 45mm Dually may offer the ability to size down to a smaller tire, if you wanted to do a dirt road/fire road tour (would want to be careful about dropping the BB too much on the ECR).


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Rednblackbike said:


> Thoughts on Rims? Happy with rabbit holes? Should I wait for the Velocity Dually or the potential Stan's offering? All will be similarly priced. 45mm Dually may offer the ability to size down to a smaller tire, if you wanted to do a dirt road/fire road tour (would want to be careful about dropping the BB too much on the ECR).


Some folks have had issues with their Duallys [posts on page 5 FWD].

http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/new-velocity-mid-fat-rim-dually-868369.html

I have used other Velocity rims with no issues so not suggesting you don't buy them just a FYI. Perhaps let the first production run sell out and score some from the next batch.

The Stan's rims sound interesting and they'll be easy to setup tubeless, but no idea when they'll actually hit the shelves.

I don't regret using Rabbit Holes. I could be tempted by some Stan's rims in a couple seasons if they live up to expectations.


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## seely (Jan 20, 2004)

vikb said:


> Some folks have had issues with their Duallys [posts on page 5 FWD].
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/new-velocity-mid-fat-rim-dually-868369.html
> 
> I have used other Velocity rims with no issues so not suggesting you don't buy them just a FYI. Perhaps let the first production run sell out and score some from the next batch.


For what its worth, we got the "cracked" rim back, and it is definitely not cracked, but has some sort of (likely our fault) flaw. It looks like the spoke hole got gouged a bit, and something left a long scratch along the web.


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## hendricks97 (Aug 7, 2013)

If youre looking for a bike packing specific bike, why not throw the Fargo into the mix? I picked up a 13 Ti Fargo and its the sweetest ride Ive ever owned.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Nick wrote a great post about touring with an ECR:

Dissecting the Surly ECR | gypsy by trade


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## ECR (Sep 25, 2013)

When ability to cross large expanses of snow or sand becomes the most important aspect in your ride then fat tire bikes rule that roost.

When trail-riding becomes the most important aspect in your ride the Krampus is a rigid alternative to hard tails like the El Mariachi on majority of trails, but for the more challenging trails then full suspension bikes rule that roost.

Of course you can camp with ANY of the above mentioned bikes, but when off-road adventure camping/touring becomes the most important aspect in your ride then it certainly looks like Surly has nailed it with this one!...

Nick Carman: "ECR is an exploration camping rig, nonpareil."
Dissecting the Surly ECR | gypsy by trade

Andy Duncan: "ECR is currently at the pinnacle of off-road touring bike technology...I can't imagine a better platform for the dedicated off-road adventurers I've had the good fortune to encounter"
Big Dummy Daddy

Surly: "ECR is a sure-footed, multi-terrain, offroad-obsessed 29+ camp bike."
ECR | Bikes | Surly Bikes

It should be fun following Logan on his African adventure...
Surly ECR: Built and Packed in 2 Days - Pedaling Nowhere


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## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

ECR said:


> When ability to cross large expanses of snow or sand becomes the most important aspect in your ride then fat tire bikes rule that roost.
> 
> When trail-riding becomes the most important aspect in your ride the Krampus is a rigid alternative to hard tails like the El Mariachi on majority of trails, but for the more challenging trails then full suspension bikes rule that roost.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong, I don't care what other people ride and I'm even starting to see some niches for the ECR, but I think most people would be better served with an Ogre or KM (maybe with a Fargo fork) as this would allow them to still run 29+ when needed but also traditional mid width tires for commuting/touring and you don't get stuck with needing special wheels. Heck, most of the ECRs I have seen didn't even have 29+ on them.


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## ECR (Sep 25, 2013)

big_papa_nuts said:


> Don't get me wrong, I don't care what other people ride and I'm even starting to see some niches for the ECR, but I think most people would be better served with an Ogre or KM


I wouldn't disagree with you. "Bikepacking and Bike Expedition" could be considered a niche. It all boils down to what is the most important aspect in your ride and whether you are limited in the number of bikes you have to fill your needs.

I once owned a 1966 Toyota Corona which I used to ride whoops on motorcross tracks, took off-roading places most folks didn't take their 4x4's and I had a blast. At the time I didn't have the luxury of owning multiple vehicles, "commuting" was the most important aspect in my ride and that 4 cylinder sedan better served my needs.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

big_papa_nuts said:


> Don't get me wrong, I don't care what other people ride and I'm even starting to see some niches for the ECR, but I think most people would be better served with an Ogre or KM (maybe with a Fargo fork) as this would allow them to still run 29+ when needed but also traditional mid width tires for commuting/touring and you don't get stuck with needing special wheels. Heck, most of the ECRs I have seen didn't even have 29+ on them.


For sure what we can say is the Knard isn't the solution for a lot of riding missions. But we had to start somewhere. As more 29+ tire get made the versatility of these bikes will improve. Being able to run "normal" 29er tires and use "normal" bike parts is one of the benefits of Surly's approach.

Coming from fatbikes with uber specialized parts it's nice to be able to use a wide variety of parts without compatibility issues.

Having said all that I have not gone anywhere on my Krampus I couldn't have gone on a Troll or KM.

OTOH - I have certainly appreciated how my Krampus rides and prefer some aspects to my previous "skinny" 29er bikepacking rig with 2.4" wide tires.


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## Rednblackbike (Apr 8, 2012)

Happy Solstice to me!



Now, I gotta try to get everything else together. Hoping to ride it by the end of the month but will probably be beginning of the new year...


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Rednblackbike said:


> Happy Solstice to me!
> 
> 
> 
> Now, I gotta try to get everything else together. Hoping to ride it by the end of the month but will probably be beginning of the new year...


The black and silver will look sharp. Congrats on the new bike! :thumbsup:


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## ECR (Sep 25, 2013)

Rednblackbike said:


> Happy Solstice to me!
> 
> Now, I gotta try to get everything else together. Hoping to ride it by the end of the month but will probably be beginning of the new year...


nice...keep us posted on your progress!


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## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

Rednblackbike said:


> Happy Solstice to me!
> 
> 
> 
> Now, I gotta try to get everything else together. Hoping to ride it by the end of the month but will probably be beginning of the new year...


Any progress on your build?


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## Rednblackbike (Apr 8, 2012)

Oh yeah. Ended up going with Duallys after all. Modified cassette to 8-speed and will probably end up getting a Surly OD or a Phil BB with a longer spindle (any opinions on that matter would be awesome!) there are a few more pics in the Flickr set.


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## Butchcantswim (Oct 6, 2013)

The ECR is definitely a cool bike! Look forward to your trip reports.


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## FatOldGoat (Jul 5, 2006)

vikb said:


> I bought the Krampus in a medium vs. a large to get a shorter more manoeuvrable bike. I also live in very rocky & rooty terrain so I like the higher BB. I wanted a mountain bike to tour on which is what the Krampus is. The big wheels/tires add a ton of stability when the bike is moving so I've had no issues on that front.
> 
> I should note that the Krampus' BB height with RHs and Knards is ~12" with me on the bike. That's not particularly high compared to the other MTBs I ride.
> 
> I bought my Krampus as a frame/fork so the parts spec on the complete and overall cost played no part in my decision.


How tall are you Vik? I am 6', with a 32" inseam, and I'm considering a medium Krampus myself. (I'm researching Krampus vs. ECR and that's how I found this older thread.)

I am between the two sizes (M-L), and frankly prefer a slightly smaller frame so that I can throw it around. Also because I have T-Rex arms I often prefer the medium frame size because it typically means a shorter top tube.

I am also considering a Vassago Jabberwocky, but the "wet cat geometry" might mean the top tube length is wrong for me.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

FatOldGoat said:


> How tall are you Vik? I am 6', with a 32" inseam, and I'm considering a medium Krampus myself. (I'm researching Krampus vs. ECR and that's how I found this older thread.)
> 
> I am between the two sizes (M-L), and frankly prefer a slightly smaller frame so that I can throw it around. Also because I have T-Rex arms I often prefer the medium frame size because it typically means a shorter top tube.
> 
> I am also considering a Vassago Jabberwocky, but the "wet cat geometry" might mean the top tube length is wrong for me.


I'm 5'11" with a 33" pants inseam.


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