# Intermittent Fasting



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

This is a bit of an outlier.

Anyone here following an IF routine and mixing it in with their riding? Not just for weight loss/getting lean, but for the other benefits...maximizing use of fat for long-term endurance, curbing ghrelin release for more stable hunger, etc.?

I've been doing the general lean-gains / IF routine for a couple months now, but haven't been doing any peak-y cardio work with it...only base-building and strength-training. FWIW - during that time I've added significant strength while staying the same overall "weight"...meaning, more muscle, less fat. I was scrawny to begin with...former road-rider, now less so, but not bulky. This is a great way to shed pounds and get strong and lean, not huge and bulky.

Now that I'm getting back into longer cardio, I don't want to switch back to the sugar-fueled riding diet I used to be on.

Anyone experiment with eating more protein/fat while riding? (I'm talking endurance events, not short-track, etc.)

If you're unfamiliar with all this, check out: http://theleansaloon.com/ or google "lean gains".

-------------

Here's a brief primer as well:

It's too easy.

To start it up:

1) Pick a time that's convenient to train/lift at (roughly 30mins of heavy
lifting or a few hours of training)
2) Do not eat before said time.
3) After lifting, being 8 hour feeding window
4) After 8 hours is up, stop eating (about 2 hours before you go to bed
is what most people do)

(My typical is breakfast/lunch at 12p, dinner around 7p)

On Days = Mod carbs, hi protein/fat
Off Days = Low-carb, hi protein, mod fat.

You lift/train no less than 2 times a week, no more than 4.

On training/lifting days, try to train/lift "fasted" - consumption of BCAAs
is HIGHLY encouraged. Although you can have a PreWO Meal a couple hours
before hand - but I found better results just with BCAAs.

After you train/lift, have a quick protein shake. Around 30 minutes-45minutes
later eat roughly 75% of your daily calories. Make sure you focus on
Protein>Carbs>Fat in that order...don't want too much fat in that PWO
meal. Your next two meals should taper down in calories.

This window lasts 8 hours.

Off days. Keep calories at a "cutting" level (below maintenance), focus
on Fat>Protein and try to limit carbs. I suggest before breaking fast,
do a routine of full body Bodyweight exercises (Pull ups, pushups, air
squats) [nothing to failure] just to get a little bit more of a
metabolic response.

Again, 8 hours eating - 16 hours not. Get stronger. Stay the same or less weight.

Rinse repeat


----------



## twestengineering (Jul 22, 2008)

*Have Experimented.*

I have done some intermittent fasting and it may be all in my head, but it seems to significantly change hormones/metabolism etc.

My IF plan was different and my goal was to increase ratio of fat/sugar that is burned as fuel during long endurance activities. Last fall I was doing one day per week with a 24 hr fast (6:00 pm - 6:00 pm) on the weekend with no riding on that day. I even did four days straight of only evening meals. My weight and body fat both dropped and stayed off for over one month and my on-the-bike workouts were very intense for the week or so after.

Its interesting, but this year I have upped my weekly training hours (~10 hrs/week) and I have found it very difficult to do. My body seems very reluctant to fast with the higher training load, no doubt from my bodies re-adaptation to a steadier stream of carbs during/after workouts.


----------



## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

This kind of thing can only really work for people that don't have decent workloads, or still have significant fat reserves. Once you have dieted to a certain fat level your body will do everything possible to not use it as fuel til you're knocking on deaths door from starvation.

You want to perform, you need to eat.


----------



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

ratmonkey said:


> This kind of thing can only really work for people that don't have decent workloads, or still have significant fat reserves. Once you have dieted to a certain fat level your body will do everything possible to not use it as fuel til you're knocking on deaths door from starvation.
> 
> You want to perform, you need to eat.


Intermittant: adjective - Occurring at irregular intervals; not continuous or steady.

This is not a hunger strike; it's doing what your body is meant to do.

Feast, rest, hunt (ride), feast again.

Takes some adaptation, but it's all part of training to use your fat stores, not a constant influx of sugar.

Andecdote: my eating yesterday.

9a - coffee w/ a T of cream
12p - chicken sandwich, whey protein shake mixed with whole milk and kefir
5p - 1.5hr ride
7:30p - grass-fed beef stir fry with lots of brocolli, bok choy, and a small side of brown rice.

I'm not starving.


----------



## flargle (Apr 15, 2009)

There's a growing scientific literature showing that IF induces good metabolic response in a range of subjects. The "starvation mode" myth is exactly that, a myth, with a tiny kernel of half-truth in there.

If fat-loss is a goal (is there a bike racer who couldn't stand to lose at least a little?) it seems that IF could be a workable tool. Psychologically, just being able to feel that hunger and realize that it's not going to kill you or even hurt your performance much if at all, is a great hurdle to get over.

The whole "slow drip" theory of eating has been drilled into us for so long, it's nice to step back and see how it holds up.


----------



## lgh (Jan 10, 2007)

ratmonkey said:


> This kind of thing can only really work for people that don't have decent workloads, or still have significant fat reserves. Once you have dieted to a certain fat level your body will do everything possible to not use it as fuel til you're knocking on deaths door from starvation.
> 
> You want to perform, you need to eat.


I agree. Unless there is recent research to the contrary, carb stores for endurance athletes must be replenished soon after a training session or the next performance will be compromised. The hormones necessary to do that are not the ones needed for fat loss. In fact, they promote fat storage. The IF (as described. I know it as different things) will work if your goal is general fitness and fat loss rather than high performance cycling. Commendable goal but it's a different forum.

Larry


----------



## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

livinlite said:


> Intermittant: adjective - Occurring at irregular intervals; not continuous or steady.
> 
> This is not a hunger strike; it's doing what your body is meant to do.
> 
> ...


Trained athletes are much different than the average bear. an endurance athlete should not have the stores to fall back on in an endurance event, it's inefficient to mobilize fat when you need the fuel immediately.

Applying new age gimmick "diets" to your training when you are looking for top tier performance doesn't cut it. For someone looking to ONLY lose weight, not complete races in a competitive manner, it should actually work reasonably well.


----------



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

lgh said:


> Commendable goal but it's a different forum.
> 
> Larry


That's cool. I'm sure all the riders in here are elite XC racers who have 5% BF and train 20+ hours a week 

If anyone who races for fun and as a way to set goals for overall fitness as part of a balanced lifestyle stumbles across this post, I still suggest you check IF out for a number of the reasons stated in this thread. It mixes very nicely with Paleo-ish eating as well.


----------



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

ratmonkey said:


> Trained athletes are much different than the average bear. an endurance athlete should not have the stores to fall back on in an endurance event, it's inefficient to mobilize fat when you need the fuel immediately.
> 
> Applying new age gimmick "diets" to your training when you are looking for top tier performance doesn't cut it. For someone looking to ONLY lose weight, not complete races in a competitive manner, it should actually work reasonably well.


Didn't mean to threaten your conservative sensibilities with my new-age quackery 

Anyway, I'll wander back over to the passion forum...


----------



## bycyclist (Oct 13, 2008)

Yes - I've done some form of IF for a couple of years now. Ask my riding buddies how much its "slowed" me down. NOT!

Dropping an unneeded 30 lbs (190# down to 160#) has done more to increase my riding capability than almost anything. On days that I ride, I just eat more. Simple, works great, I'm staying super lean and strong. Caveat - I'm not a competitive athlete, but a very strong recreational rider (SS only now).

I am somewhat compulsive about tracking calories as an experiment, because I've been curious as to what following following the various eating plans actually does calorie wise. 

I'll tell you this - most people eat far more calories than they think and burn off far less than they think.


----------



## twestengineering (Jul 22, 2008)

*Amen!*



livinlite said:


> That's cool. I'm sure all the riders in here are elite XC racers who have 5% BF and train 20+ hours a week
> 
> If anyone who races for fun and as a way to set goals for overall fitness as part of a balanced lifestyle stumbles across this post, I still suggest you check IF out for a number of the reasons stated in this thread. It mixes very nicely with Paleo-ish eating as well.


Well said. Plus I doubt any of those who dismiss the idea of intermittent fasting even have the will power to try it.

I.F. is training for your metabolism. Just as we train our cardiovascular system, anaerobic system, strength, flexibility, coordination etc. It is a very overlooked part of the system (because it is difficult and unfashionable). It is way easier to do what the supplement makers and TV "doctor" shows say and just constantly "Slow-drip" fuel into our system. Marketing has created a generation of Elite XC racer, wanna be weaklings who can't make it eight hours between meals.


----------



## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

As lattah has discovered and doesn't want to acknowledge, you don't have to be at an elite racing level to outgrow this technique.

Does it work for fat loss? Of course. don't kid yourself though, you lose weight by eating less, not when you eat.
Can't get past the laws of thermodynamics.


----------



## lgh (Jan 10, 2007)

livinlite said:


> That's cool. I'm sure all the riders in here are elite XC racers who have 5% BF and train 20+ hours a week
> 
> If anyone who races for fun and as a way to set goals for overall fitness as part of a balanced lifestyle stumbles across this post, I still suggest you check IF out for a number of the reasons stated in this thread. It mixes very nicely with Paleo-ish eating as well.


Well, that would be me! Here's one of my previous posts on on how you might game it with your endocrine system. It kinda works if your goal is general fitness and just having fun racing. Incidentally, I am in no way suggesting that a performance diet for racing bikes is the best way to eat for general health.

"You might try gaming your endocrine system a bit in the off season. On days when you do intense intervals, eat lean protein and very little carb for 2 hours after your intervals when HGH is up and insulin down. By doing so, you have optimized fat consumption and lean muscle production but given up eating for recovery. So make the next day a rest day to give yourself more time to recover. Make sense?"

Only do the big carb refueling after a endurance ride and when you must do volume (endurance) training the next day. Hope this helps.

Larry


----------



## twestengineering (Jul 22, 2008)

*I actually do believe in Intermittent Fasting.*



ratmonkey said:


> As lattah has discovered and doesn't want to acknowledge, you don't have to be at an elite racing level to outgrow this technique.
> 
> Does it work for fat loss? Of course. don't kid yourself though, you lose weight by eating less, not when you eat.
> Can't get past the laws of thermodynamics.


I have not "outgrown this technique" at all, but I'll say this - Intermittent fasting is one of the more difficult training techniques. I have done it and respect anyone who is capable of it. It is good for training your metabolism and your will power. The weight loss effect of is probably the least important reason to do some Intermittent Fasting. The biggest reason to do it is that it makes you TOUGH!

livinlite should change their screen name to LIVINTOUGH! I'm glad to see this topic in this forum.

When I was using this technique, I was in a very busy period of life where I had very little time to train and it was one thing that I could do while sitting in the office that made me faster. I don't think that just because its more difficult when training more hours, that it isn't still effective. We'll see! My racing season started this week and it may be time to start I.F. again.


----------



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

LATAH_M.E. said:


> I have not "outgrown this technique" at all, but I'll say this - Intermittent fasting is one of the more difficult training techniques. I have done it and respect anyone who is capable of it. It is good for training your metabolism and your will power. The weight loss effect of is probably the least important reason to do some Intermittent Fasting. The biggest reason to do it is that it makes you TOUGH!
> 
> livinlite should change their screen name to LIVINTOUGH! I'm glad to see this topic in this forum.
> 
> When I was using this technique, I was in a very busy period of life where I had very little time to train and it was one thing that I could do while sitting in the office that made me faster. I don't think that just because its more difficult when training more hours, that it isn't still effective. We'll see! My racing season started this week and it may be time to start I.F. again.


Thanks...but it only took about two weeks to get used to it. The hardest part is convincing your spouse/co-workers that you aren't starving yourself...and people on the interwebs  .

Really though, it's a pretty great way to get control of your calorie intake and get in touch with what "real" hunger feels like. I still eat like a horse, but I do it during a shorter period of time, so I don't pack on more calories than what I would eat if consuming 3+ meals a day instead of two. I enjoy having those 700 calories as a bigger lunch/dinner post-training instead of breakfast. As I said earlier, it also is very good for your digestive system. I've had some problems in the past :skep: with weak digestion and it feels like giving it more time to rest each day is a good thing. It also allows me to eat more lunch/dinner type foods that are more protein and veggie based as opposed to the usual sweeter-carb stuff in most breakfasts. Of course, I struggle to stay disciplined on it like everyone else, but at this point, it's pretty much a habit.

I'll see how it holds up though when I move next month and have a 20+ mile ride/commute in each morning. I'm actually really looking forward to it. My 10 min walk to work right now is a little boring.

I'll also add that this type of eating doesn't have to be low-carb by any means. I don't eat much bread or sugar (except in real ice-cream of course), so I end up not getting a ton of carbs, but plenty of people do this eating around 150-250g carb a day, especially on their training days. I'm more in the 100-200 range or less. And that's on around 1800cals on non-training days and 2500 or so on training. 6'4", 175. Sedentary except for my walk to work and my workouts.


----------



## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

700kcals is a big meal? My post lifting shake is more calorie dense.

Theres no scientific evidence to back up "metabolism training" as you put it. There is plenty of evidence as to the stages of starvation though. All the evidence(blood samples, blood and waste gas monitoring, tissue samples) points to I.f. being nothing more than a willpower exercise.


----------



## mtbscott (May 11, 2005)

ratmonkey said:


> Does it work for fat loss? Of course. don't kid yourself though, you lose weight by eating less, not when you eat.


This. I have lost 30 lbs since September by eating less. I am riding lots more than I was before then, on days when I ride I eat more. I don't really ban any foods from my diet, but acknowledge that certain things, i.e. sweets, should be a treat, not a daily occurence. Less weight has improved my riding (and racing) immensely without any real "training" plan.


----------



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

ratmonkey said:


> 700kcals is a big meal? My post lifting shake is more calorie dense.
> 
> Theres no scientific evidence to back up "metabolism training" as you put it. There is plenty of evidence as to the stages of starvation though. All the evidence(blood samples, blood and waste gas monitoring, tissue samples) points to I.f. being nothing more than a willpower exercise.


Dude. Your inability to read for comprehension is astounding. The 700kcals is in _addition_ to what I'd normally have had for lunch or dinner. Why is this so offensive to you? The health benefits are obvious and tweeking it to fit your training schedule is easy.

I'll be back with some PubMed peer-reviewed-science case studies shortly :madman:

I'd suggest you do the same for your "all the evidence" statement. I haven't seen anything that shows negative effects from short-term, intra-day fasting as long as overall calorie needs are met.

From memory: There is very little effect on metabolism until you get out past 40+ hours of fasting. In fact, your metabolism, HGH production, and cholesterol markers all improve in the 16-18hr fast window. There is also little to no effect on "blood sugar", meaning that feeling of shakiness you get that you interpret as "low blood sugar" is just a hormonal response based on your normal meal timing and your digestion revving up for an influx of food. That response shifts over time as you shift your eating schedule.


----------



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

*A PubMed vacation*

Intermittent vs. Daily Calorie Restriction:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21410865?dopt=Abstract

These findings suggest that these diets are equally as effective in decreasing body weight and fat mass, although intermittent CR may be more effective for the retention of lean mass.

------

I thought I had more links on my work computer, but alas...

If anyone cares to do the searching, there are a ton of articles out there about hunger, satiety, muscle growth response, etc. as related to IF.

However, there are also plenty of articles saying it doesn't work and that increased meal frequency is better, etc.

Many of the studies are for obese populations or have some other strange controls that don't map to most of the people here.

So, it probably comes back to some N=1 experimenting.

If you want to try it, give it a whirl for a week or two and see how you respond.

If you don't like it, stop and go back to whatever you did before.

It's really not that big of a deal.


----------



## lgh (Jan 10, 2007)

livinlite said:


> ....The health benefits are obvious and tweeking it to fit your training schedule is easy. ....I'll be back with some PubMed peer-reviewed-science case studies shortly :madman:


livinlite - I'm trying to figure out where you are going with this. Is there really some evidence that IF is beneficial to high performance endurance athletes beyond just a general health benefit? i.e. Trained athletes will get measurably faster by building in a block of 40+ hours of fasting (with or without training?) and that is better than current methods. I'm anxious to hear if there is. I've never heard it mentioned before. And I'm not being offensive, just curious.

Larry


----------



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

mtbscott said:


> This. I have lost 30 lbs since September by eating less. I am riding lots more than I was before then, on days when I ride I eat more. I don't really ban any foods from my diet, but acknowledge that certain things, i.e. sweets, should be a treat, not a daily occurence. Less weight has improved my riding (and racing) immensely without any real "training" plan.


Most find it easier to eat two 1,000cal meals than four 500cal meals. The metabolic bump you get from snacking doesn't offset the calories you take in. And most people end up eating way more calories than they think they are when eating 3-4+ times a day instead of having one or two large meals (with additional food to make up for heavy training days).

Again, try it if you want. If it doesn't work for you, so be it. It does for me. And it has for many, many others. Especially if you struggle with over-eating and want to lose some fat without losing muscle.


----------



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

lgh said:


> livinlite - I'm trying to figure out where you are going with this. Is there really some evidence that IF is beneficial to high performance endurance athletes beyond just a general health benefit? i.e. Trained athletes will get measurably faster by building in a block of 40+ hours of fasting (with or without training?) and that is better than current methods. I'm anxious to hear if there is. I've never heard it mentioned before. And I'm not being offensive, just curious.
> 
> Larry


No, there probably isn't, because no one's done the study with high-perf-endurance-athletes. I'd imagine the benefit is for more average-joes...which is why I had a bit of a disclaimer when this whole thing started.

This whole thread has gone off a cliff...and I apologise for my roll in that.

If you're overweight, IF is one lifestyle adjustment to help you get your calories under control while also having positive benefits for digestion, HGH release, etc. It doesn't slow down your metabolism (until you get into starvation at 40-72+ hours of not eating).

That's all.

I just get frustrated when people claim science that just doesn't exist. Maybe I'm a bit guilty of that here...but only because I've got one half of my brain doing this and the other half actually working on my job.


----------



## lgh (Jan 10, 2007)

livinlite said:


> No, there probably isn't, because no one's done the study with high-perf-endurance-athletes. I'd imagine the benefit is for more average-joes...which is why I had a bit of a disclaimer when this whole thing started.
> 
> This whole thread has gone off a cliff...and I apologise for my roll in that.
> 
> ...


Hey, no apology needed. I'm doing some races this year - starting next week - after being off for some years. I was hoping something other than the carb-drip diet was available for endurance athletes since I wisely dumped that for a more healthy diet when I stopped biking. My science radar picks up most major developments but I thught I might have missed something. Looks like it's back to Paleo for Jocks!

Larry


----------



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

lgh said:


> Hey, no apology needed. I'm doing some races this year - starting next week - after being off for some years. I was hoping something other than the carb-drip diet was available for endurance athletes since I wisely dumped that for a more healthy diet when I stopped biking. My science radar picks up most major developments but I thught I might have missed something. Looks like it's back to Paleo for Jocks!
> 
> Larry


http://theleansaloon.com/ mixes well with http://www.marksdailyapple.com/ as long as you don't take either to be gospel truth and instead experiment with what works for you.

Carb drip doesn't work for me. Didn't work when I was training 15+ hours a week running 40+ miles and riding 150+ road miles. I don't train like that anymore and I feel much better on a lower-carb, lower-sugar, low-gluten diet. But I'm not an elite racer...

Just a mid-pack guy experimenting with diet/lifestyle stuff to live a healthy and balanced life. IF has helped with that. Putting on some muscle in the gym has helped with that...even if it hasn't made me "faster" than when I looked like a skeleton and rode my ass off 5 days a week. I feel "healthier" now than I did then. That's all I'm after.

I'll race for fun, not to be #1...so maybe I belong in Passion...like I said earlier...


----------



## lgh (Jan 10, 2007)

"....I feel much better on a lower-carb, lower-sugar, low-gluten diet." 

That is a good way to eat, even if it doesn't make one faster. Participation in multiple, serial "contests" like racing has never been shown to be healthy. But if you want speed, you gotta do what you gotta do ....

Larry


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

From 2007...

http://www.alanaragon.com/an-objective-look-at-intermittent-fasting.html


----------



## viking5326 (Apr 2, 2008)

robbwolf.com

probably one of the best nutrition resourses out there.


----------



## Front_Runner (Apr 26, 2011)

Crankout said:


> From 2007...
> 
> http://www.alanaragon.com/an-objective-look-at-intermittent-fasting.html


Aragon has changed his stance on that since then and since new research has come out. Read something more current.


----------



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

*New Study: IF and Testosterone in males*

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19127293

Result: IF increases the Testosterone to Estrogen ratio in male rats.

Maybe that explains some of my grumpy responses on here  lolz


----------



## Front_Runner (Apr 26, 2011)

You're a male rat?


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Front_Runner said:


> Aragon has changed his stance on that since then and since new research has come out. Read something more current.


Give me something to work with then, young fellow.


----------



## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

Just another datapoint ...I've been experimenting with IF lately. My strategy is this: Exercise is rewarded with feasting. Feasting is followed by fasting until the next bout of exercise.

Because I mostly ride during the evening and work out in the gym 1 or 2 times a week during lunch, most of my rewarding/feasting happens between 5 and 10 although on some days it starts about 1pm. I start the rewarding immediately after doing something that feels awesome on the bike or complete on a workout. This could be a sprint that feel good or even just a nice warm up. This is mostly carbos. Post ride, I'm taking in a good mix of protein fat and carbs ...but probably heavier on the fat and protein towards the end of the feasting period.

The fasting part is basically from 10 or 11 that night until the next time I work out (including recover workouts) or diner the next night around 6.

My goals are:
1) trick the body into thinking that riding a bike fast is the best way to get what it needs
2) maintain a state ketosis so the body will prefer to burn fat over sugar.
3) avoid insulin spikes associated with carbo consumption

FYI ...I aint no scientist or doctor. Also, I'm not in this for weight loss though I could stand to lose 5 or so pounds. Also, I tend to ride a bicycle very economically ...such as I'm a spinner and a frequent gear changer.

Random observation 1: I'm pretty sure I have improved my economy for ride longer than 3 hours. I have not been doing anything more intense then Base 3/Build 1 muscular endurance type rides. The places I ride tend to require a bunch of ultashort burst of 3-10 seconds and I don't think these have been affected much but it too early to tell. I have not been doing anything as far as structure intervals go though.

Random observation 2: I often feel euphoric and have better concentration beginning about 10, 12 hours into the fast.


----------



## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

@glazedham if you are eating carbs daily you are not in ketosis. Ketosis generally takes between 2-4 days to set in for most people and if you aren't verifying with ketosticks you don't really know if you're there or not.

Oh, that feeling of extra concentration usually ends up being the exact opposite in independent testing. You feel more attentive but score worse in objective testing.


----------



## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

ratmonkey said:


> @glazedham if you are eating carbs daily you are not in ketosis. Ketosis generally takes between 2-4 days to set in for most people and if you aren't verifying with ketosticks you don't really know if you're there or not.
> 
> Oh, that feeling of extra concentration usually ends up being the exact opposite in independent testing. You feel more attentive but score worse in objective testing.


Thanks for the bummer, man  I'll get the Ketosticks and check it out, but further interweb investigation seems to prove you correct. Thankfully, I won't be taking any objective test so I'll just groove on the feeling for now.


----------



## Reeper (Jun 24, 2010)

GlazedHam said:


> Just another datapoint ...I've been experimenting with IF lately. My strategy is this: Exercise is rewarded with feasting. Feasting is followed by fasting until the next bout of exercise.
> 
> Because I mostly ride during the evening and work out in the gym 1 or 2 times a week during lunch, most of my rewarding/feasting happens between 5 and 10 although on some days it starts about 1pm. I start the rewarding immediately after doing something that feels awesome on the bike or complete on a workout. This could be a sprint that feel good or even just a nice warm up. This is mostly carbos. Post ride, I'm taking in a good mix of protein fat and carbs ...but probably heavier on the fat and protein towards the end of the feasting period.
> 
> ...


You're probably not in Ketosis if you're taking carbs - that usually takes several days and a whole lot of feeling like crap to get there. Further not taking carbs would probably deplete your glycogen levels to a point to where you were less efficient on a bike. Also a good insulin spike post workout would probably do you some good.


----------



## Reeper (Jun 24, 2010)

GlazedHam said:


> Thanks for the bummer, man  I'll get the Ketosticks and check it out, but further interweb investigation seems to prove you correct. Thankfully, I won't be taking any objective test so I'll just groove on the feeling for now.


Apologies - RatMonkey appears to have posted the same advice. I should read ahead before posting.


----------



## 29erBob (Dec 17, 2009)

hmm,.. this is an interesting thread. I'm 6ft and 240lbs, I've lost over 70lbs in the last year and did my first race last weekend. (Whiskey 25 in Arizona) I'm not fast (finished in 4:09) and I'm 40, so I know I'm not going to be "fast" in the sense of the guys here. Please be kind to an old fat guy and see if there's some way to help me out. 

Body comp tests (electric and float) show me at 205lbs of lean mass, which puts me in the 20% BF range, but I think to be competitive I need to be in the 10% range, or lower. I can't seem to find a good way to get that next 20lbs off,.. UGH!

Here's my question as it relates to this thread,..

I like to train in the morning, in AZ it's the coolest time of the day. In the evening about 2-3 times per week I'm teaching RPM (Les Mills RPM / Spin), and that's another workout. I have about 12-13 hours between each "workout" (teaching RPM is a workout no matter how much I try to back off the resistance, if you slack it shows badly). 

How could I adapt the 8 hrs (or similar) to my training/teaching schedule? If I make lunch my big meal of the day, or 60-70% cal intake meal that means it comes almost 4 hrs after my morning ride. That means maybe 20g of protein in the morning after I ride and nothing else (maybe black coffee and water) until 11:30 that day, then going in to teach feeling very low. Will that feeling pass? Then post teach consume another 20g protein and call it a day? That still means 13 hours or so of food consumption daily,..

BTW, I like this thread. Not everyone reading it is 5% BF,.... some of us struggle to get where we are.


----------



## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

In retrospect, I had inadvertently done several years of IF back in grad school when my sleep schedule was not very good. It did not work well for me because the big dinner made me very sleepy and ruined my productivity for the next several hours.


----------



## Reeper (Jun 24, 2010)

29erBob said:


> hmm,.. this is an interesting thread. I'm 6ft and 240lbs, I've lost over 70lbs in the last year and did my first race last weekend. (Whiskey 25 in Arizona) I'm not fast (finished in 4:09) and I'm 40, so I know I'm not going to be "fast" in the sense of the guys here. Please be kind to an old fat guy and see if there's some way to help me out.
> 
> Body comp tests (electric and float) show me at 205lbs of lean mass, which puts me in the 20% BF range, but I think to be competitive I need to be in the 10% range, or lower. I can't seem to find a good way to get that next 20lbs off,.. UGH!
> 
> ...


I'm not that fast either and am 39 but have done some amateur bb'ing as well as XC racing. I would take the intermittent fasting thing and throw it out the window. I range from about 7% bf bf in the spring and summer and then bulk up to about 10% bf in the winter. I follow some basic guide lines in regards to nutrition 35% protein 35 % carbs (clean - no refined sugars) and 30% fats. With that in mind and if I know where my daily caloric intake is I try and take in that 35% protein with every meal so about 1/3 of every meal is protein. My biggest carb load is in the morning (oatmeal) and then tapers off and is replaced with fat with the biggest fat intake being before bed. Fat digest slowly and is perfect prior for fasting during sleep. Fat also has the benefit of increasing testosterone production. Because most muscle building happens during sleep the added test is a benefit. Outside the oatmeal most of my other carbs come from veggies and not fruit due to the added fiber.

The exception to this is around training and I treat both XC training and weight training the same. I have a banana or two ½ hour prior to working out and 50 grams of protein with 60-75 grams fast acting carbs (For me its WMS - waxy maize starch). Don't eat anything other than that for about 45 minutes - let it work.

The only thing I'd vary is the number of cals I take in whether I'm trying to gain, cut or maintain. Also I have 1 cheat day a week. I'd start with a cheat meal first and see how you respond.

Good luck!


----------



## Bioteknik (Jun 27, 2007)

livinlite said:


> Intermittant: adjective - Occurring at irregular intervals; not continuous or steady.
> 
> This is not a hunger strike; it's doing what your body is meant to do.
> 
> ...


and how is this IF?

That's just skipping breakfast.


----------



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

29erBob said:


> hmm,.. this is an interesting thread. I'm 6ft and 240lbs, I've lost over 70lbs in the last year and did my first race last weekend. (Whiskey 25 in Arizona) I'm not fast (finished in 4:09) and I'm 40, so I know I'm not going to be "fast" in the sense of the guys here. Please be kind to an old fat guy and see if there's some way to help me out.
> 
> Body comp tests (electric and float) show me at 205lbs of lean mass, which puts me in the 20% BF range, but I think to be competitive I need to be in the 10% range, or lower. I can't seem to find a good way to get that next 20lbs off,.. UGH!
> 
> ...


You are in a unique spot no doubt. It's going to take some experimenting to find something that works for you.

You could also just take the approach of aiming for a good, clean overall diet with whole foods, lots of protein, and most of your carbs from veggies (incl sweet-potatoes). I imagine the weight would keep coming off for you given your level of activity as long as you aren't overdoing the sugar or junk carbs and are getting enough protein.

Hitting some high-intensity intervals on those morning workouts can help too.

Also, congrats on losing the 70 lbs. That is an awesome feat in itself! :thumbsup:


----------



## 29erBob (Dec 17, 2009)

livinlite said:


> You are in a unique spot no doubt. It's going to take some experimenting to find something that works for you.
> 
> You could also just take the approach of aiming for a good, clean overall diet with whole foods, lots of protein, and most of your carbs from veggies (incl sweet-potatoes). I imagine the weight would keep coming off for you given your level of activity as long as you aren't overdoing the sugar or junk carbs and are getting enough protein.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I log my food with "My Food Diary" . COM and I get a whole suite of reports from it, sugar/fibre/protein/fat/sat.Fat/vitamins, etc. I've been trying to cut sugars and replace with complex carbs lately, which makes me sleep better but hasn't changed my weight any. I don't eat anything with any kind of flour in it or any kind of refined sugar, both are killers. At present, the only REALLY BAD thing I do is have a beer or two after a very long ride, it's my reward for being on the bike for 3-5 hours. I know it's bad, but well,.. you know,...


----------



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

Bioteknik said:


> and how is this IF?
> 
> That's just skipping breakfast.


In general, IF is spending 16-18 hrs per day in the fasted state and doing some form of vigorous activity prior to breaking your fast. Does that definition really matter? The point is your re-training your hunger response, which allows you more flexibility in your eating (ie. re-training your habits so you can eat based on need). You still eat adequate calories, you just end up having more perceived control over what/when you eat by establishing more discipline. There are other observed benefits, but I find it worth it just for those two.

The biggest benefit I've seen is that I'm no longer freaked out if I miss a meal, have a meeting run long, or whatever. And I'm more able to adjust my calorie intake up/down depending on needs instead of on a habit of eating every 4 hours.

YMMV.


----------



## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

*I see a lot of reflections on what our cavemen ancestors*

did back in the day when reading lit on diets. Has anyone considered that possibly endurance athletes are taxing their bodies well beyond what the cavemen ever did in a day's/week's work?

Just a thought. If so, then we would need to alter our diets a bit to compensate for the additional activity.

I just can't imagine that the cavemen did anything remotely close to a 12hr. mountain bike race with regards to extended exertion.

Most existing tribes worldwide don't do anything remotely close either....maybe a couple of occasional exceptions here and there..

I have yet to hear anyone acknowledge this. Maybe I am an idjut for even considering this...

From the little I have read, it seems like so many people are pushing the concept of "just replicate what the cavemen ate and you will be totally fine.."


----------



## livinlite (Apr 25, 2008)

rydbyk said:


> did back in the day when reading lit on diets. Has anyone considered that possibly endurance athletes are taxing their bodies well beyond what the cavemen ever did in a day's/week's work?
> 
> Just a thought. If so, then we would need to alter our diets a bit to compensate for the additional activity.
> 
> ...


I think MANY people have acknowledged that certain types of endurance activities are harmful to your health...

Most acknowledge that prolonged low-level aerobic activity, with bursts of intense effort, is perfectly healthy and is what we were designed for. Our ability to sweat is a genetic adaptation that allows us to do prolonged low-level aerobic activity (vs. other animals). It's why humans can hunt antelope by chasing them until the antelope get exhausted. And why dogs can do the same thing to rabbits...to an extent.

But, there are limits.

I don't think we're designed to work at 85% of MHR for 12 hours on end...if that's even possible through constant replenishing of sugar. I think this is why weekend-warrior marathoners put themselves at so much danger. They aren't in good enough shape to do what they do, so their heart-rate is too high for too long. That and some people just have genetically inferior hearts that are susceptible to "breaking" if the wrong stress is applied.

I think one of the amazing things about bike riding is that you can do it with a relative low-level of exertion (lower heart-rate), interspersed with intervals of heavy effort (short, steep hills you choose to power up). I'm thinking "epic rides" here, not necessarily "go for the fastest time" endurance races.

The super-atheletes racing at the top end have developed the ability to do this while going really fast...but they may also create complications for themselves later in life by training the heart too much (I don't know the technical way of wording it, but it's over-strengthening the heart muscle). I view that as a job hazard.

The question then is, if you aren't racing to put food on the table for your family, where do you draw the balance between over-training and possibly harming your heart-health, and doing what you enjoy, which may be "being the best/fastest" rider you can?

Interesting questions.


----------



## ratmonkey (Feb 10, 2011)

29erBob said:


> hmm,.. this is an interesting thread. I'm 6ft and 240lbs, I've lost over 70lbs in the last year and did my first race last weekend. (Whiskey 25 in Arizona) I'm not fast (finished in 4:09) and I'm 40, so I know I'm not going to be "fast" in the sense of the guys here. Please be kind to an old fat guy and see if there's some way to help me out.
> 
> Body comp tests (electric and float) show me at 205lbs of lean mass, which puts me in the 20% BF range, but I think to be competitive I need to be in the 10% range, or lower. I can't seem to find a good way to get that next 20lbs off,.. UGH!
> 
> ...


no, probably not.
judging by your work loads and needs, you're probably not a candidate for any of the variations on the paleo diet.



Reeper said:


> I'm not that fast either and am 39 but have done some amateur bb'ing as well as XC racing. I would take the intermittent fasting thing and throw it out the window. I range from about 7% bf bf in the spring and summer and then bulk up to about 10% bf in the winter. I follow some basic guide lines in regards to nutrition 35% protein 35 % carbs (clean - no refined sugars) and 30% fats. With that in mind and if I know where my daily caloric intake is I try and take in that 35% protein with every meal so about 1/3 of every meal is protein. My biggest carb load is in the morning (oatmeal) and then tapers off and is replaced with fat with the biggest fat intake being before bed. Fat digest slowly and is perfect prior for fasting during sleep. Fat also has the benefit of increasing testosterone production. Because most muscle building happens during sleep the added test is a benefit. Outside the oatmeal most of my other carbs come from veggies and not fruit due to the added fiber.
> 
> The exception to this is around training and I treat both XC training and weight training the same. I have a banana or two ½ hour prior to working out and 50 grams of protein with 60-75 grams fast acting carbs (For me its WMS - waxy maize starch). Don't eat anything other than that for about 45 minutes - let it work.
> 
> ...


this guy has it pretty much nailed for his body. the caveat is that he probably spend a decade figuring out that tapering his carbs and reverse tapering his fats was the way to go for him.
that's just how long things like this take. altering your diet to the "perfect" one for you generally takes years to nail;.



29erBob said:


> Thanks! I log my food with "My Food Diary" . COM and I get a whole suite of reports from it, sugar/fibre/protein/fat/sat.Fat/vitamins, etc. I've been trying to cut sugars and replace with complex carbs lately, which makes me sleep better but hasn't changed my weight any. I don't eat anything with any kind of flour in it or any kind of refined sugar, both are killers. At present, the only REALLY BAD thing I do is have a beer or two after a very long ride, it's my reward for being on the bike for 3-5 hours. I know it's bad, but well,.. you know,...


you may be eating too much or not the right amounts of things. your previous post made it seem like you're only taking in 40g of protein a day. that is WAY too low for your lean mass.
endurance athletes generally don't need as much as strength athletes or those of us that are after vanity(bber's), but you should be taking in about .5g-.75/lb lean body mass as an endurance athlete.
one other bonus of replacing carbohydrate calories with protein calories is that your body expends more energy converting the protein/amino's into glycogen than anything else it digests.


rydbyk said:


> did back in the day when reading lit on diets. Has anyone considered that possibly endurance athletes are taxing their bodies well beyond what the cavemen ever did in a day's/week's work?
> 
> Just a thought. If so, then we would need to alter our diets a bit to compensate for the additional activity.
> 
> ...


cavemen(depending upon which species you're looking at) were shorter, lived shorter lives, had lower brain capacity(DIRECTLY related to animal fat intake), and were chronically undernourished.

heck, once people invented tools and language no one was chasing down prey, they were driving them and ambushing in groups.


----------



## aardvark102431 (Apr 14, 2008)

ratmonkey said:


> Trained athletes are much different than the average bear. an endurance athlete should not have the stores to fall back on in an endurance event, it's inefficient to mobilize fat when you need the fuel immediately.
> 
> Applying new age gimmick "diets" to your training when you are looking for top tier performance doesn't cut it. For someone looking to ONLY lose weight, not complete races in a competitive manner, it should actually work reasonably well.


"The average Caveman was as fit as a modern day athlete" trained athletes are nothing special, average bears are just really lame. Fat is the most efficient form of energy out there, and you can train your body to utilize it more effectively. Switching to a diet like the Paleo diet is a start, IF is also a good way to do this. As a lot of you who have given it a try are learning, it really changes your view on scheduled meals. you don't freak out if you miss a few. your hunger is more tame.
IF is not a "new age gimmick diet". It's been around since the dawn of man, and that is why it is an effective tool to use today. Genetically our bodies are 99.9% identical to our Paleo ancestors. The human species adapted to withstand such hardships as intermittent food scarcity, and this is why simulating this event today can be helpful.
I race at an elite level and have won several 12 and 24 hour MTB races so I know with certainty that this can be used in a competitive manner.


----------



## Reeper (Jun 24, 2010)

aardvark102431 said:


> "The average Caveman was as fit as a modern day athlete" trained athletes are nothing special, average bears are just really lame. Fat is the most efficient form of energy out there, and you can train your body to utilize it more effectively. Switching to a diet like the Paleo diet is a start, IF is also a good way to do this. As a lot of you who have given it a try are learning, it really changes your view on scheduled meals. you don't freak out if you miss a few. your hunger is more tame.
> IF is not a "new age gimmick diet". It's been around since the dawn of man, and that is why it is an effective tool to use today. Genetically our bodies are 99.9% identical to our Paleo ancestors. The human species adapted to withstand such hardships as intermittent food scarcity, and this is why simulating this event today can be helpful.
> I race at an elite level and have won several 12 and 24 hour MTB races so I know with certainty that this can be used in a competitive manner.


I respect the fact that you are very competitive in your sport but almost nothing in your comments in regards to nutrition are true. Our bodies do not burn fat efficiently. In fact our bodies tend to hang on to it as long as possible. Rather our bodies seem more efficient at burning muscle and glycogen. Much like cavemen our bodies are designed to store fat in times of plenty and then feed off of those reserves during times of famine. I'd have to believe in caveman times they were either malnurshished and starving or fat and happy. Having been to extreme low levels of body fat for body building I can say for certainty IF would not have worked for me. Muscle would have wasted away very fast. I also find during the summer months when I compete in cycling and lift weights less I weigh less weight but carry a few extra points of bf. I'm on board with whole foods and wild game but IF I can not see working very well. I guess if it works for you great but I choose to eat when I'm hungary and training.


----------



## seandm (Mar 18, 2004)

Livinlite,
How is your IF routine going, are you still following it or have you given up? I stumbled upon this thread after searching thru the forums to see if anyone was successful in following such a program along with keeping up with their cycling routine. I would be interested in finding out what you might have changed or modified since your first post.


----------



## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

I tried IM twice a week for a most of last year. I fasted between about 7pm and 5pm the next day. I followed a strict fast with 0 carbs and only about a 1/4 cup of coffee without cream or sugar. The most profound affect of the diet for me was the interesting elevated moods it created. I reached a break through in my endurance, but there were many other variables that played a factor --the biggest one being that I simply had not been that into endurance type of events in the past and never trained for them. I wound up breaking some bones and stopped fasting during the initial recovery period. After that, my Intermittent Fasting became, well, more and more intermittent until it just went away.

I'm now doing the Paleo Diet for Athletes pretty much by the book and I think it has a more dramatic effect on fitness.


----------



## asphalt_jesus (Aug 13, 2010)

ratmonkey said:


> Theres no scientific evidence to back up "metabolism training" as you put it. There is plenty of evidence as to the stages of starvation though. All the evidence(blood samples, blood and waste gas monitoring, tissue samples) points to I.f. being nothing more than a willpower exercise.


+1
I've been in and out of it for 30 years, so I've seen the name of this fad change.Years ago they used mumbo jumbo from a different system. Blood and immune system were two of them I remember.

I absolutely have no problem with tracking calories as a way to maintain weight. I do it because I'm a middle-aged desk jockey. There's *no way* I'm giving up my PoBoy and beer among other foods. No way! Tracking calories is maybe 2 minutes of my day and I move on.

Systematically starving oneself over a long period of time AND adding exercise to it strongly suggests there's active body image issues.


----------



## AcuNinja (Jun 8, 2008)

Cosign. I've been doing much the same, but I only do it 1 day a week or so. 

The paleo diet has been an absolute lifesaver for me. I make it fairly low carb, except for post-workout, which is when I get the majority of my carbs. It's been fantastic for my endurance, strength, and general well-being.


----------



## seandm (Mar 18, 2004)

Livinlite, you still doing this? i stopped after this and then started up again recently after someone i know was doing it. Just wondering if you figured out the right formula, as i find that 4-5 days of IF is too much and i have zero strength up until the 2nd-3rd day of returning to normal eating. it seems around that time i have leaps of energy and can knock out about 40-50 miles with ease. 

I am not sure if it is not enough protein or fat intake or what.


----------



## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

I'm back on IF as part of a strategy for burning fat preferencially for fuel. Looking back though all my strava personal records, I noticed that most of them where set in two separate, narrow time frames so I wanted to get back to what I was doing then. One commonality was IF. 

My new IF strategy to fast from about 7pm to about 2pm the next day. No food at all, one cup of black coffee. I'm doing this mostly Monday through Thursday. 

One thing I'm doing different to to work out fasted and continue fasting for a few more hours after work out BUT consuming gobs of essential amino acids post workout.


----------



## seandm (Mar 18, 2004)

My problem is i get way too weak as my body tells me it isnt hungry anymore after about 2 days. sometimes i have to forcefeed myself a meal before i stop fasting in the evening. I was putting grass fed butter in my coffee and that was all i had until 2pm.


----------



## Power Meter City (Mar 28, 2016)

If you can do IF and make it work, more power to you. The thought of going 18 hours without food hurts. During big volume and/or high intensity weeks, my metabolism is cranking. I can't get enough food...


----------



## Power Meter City (Mar 28, 2016)

asphalt_jesus said:


> +1
> I've been in and out of it for 30 years, so I've seen the name of this fad change.Years ago they used mumbo jumbo from a different system. Blood and immune system were two of them I remember.
> 
> I absolutely have no problem with tracking calories as a way to maintain weight. I do it because I'm a middle-aged desk jockey. There's *no way* I'm giving up my PoBoy and beer among other foods. No way! Tracking calories is maybe 2 minutes of my day and I move on.


+1 I have a spreadsheet built in excel I use for this very same reason. Pretty easy to track your diet once you get it set up...and the data is pretty informative.


----------



## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

I never go 18 hours. 12-14 hours for me and that's pretty easy. Stop eating a 3-4 hours before bed. Sleep 8 hours. Don't eat for 2-4 hours after waking up. I haven't been doing it lately. In fact I've pretty much let my self go to ****. But I'm gearing up to hit it hard again with diet and fasting. I really really need to shed 50+ pounds this summer which should be easy once I get my head right.


----------



## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

I fast for 14-18 hours. The first couple times are challenging, but it gets easier. And its a no-brainer: just skip breakfast, basically. I've never combined IF with lots of cardio; that sounds brutal. Using IF + low volume heavy lifting, with optional HIIT sessions is a great way to improve body composition.

The idea of counting calories turns me off, but to each his own. Whatever works.


----------



## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

I ride fasted from time to time. Usually not an issue. As much as 40+ miles on the road before. But I have LOTS of fuel that I carry with me daily. 

My big issue now however...I haven't really been doing IF the past few months and my diet has been crap and I'm suffering big time because of it. I've also developed a morning coffee habit that might be hard to beat. It's not so much that I need it as it is I really want it and it's become routine. But not straight black coffee which wouldn't be a problem but I do a big ass latte first thing in the morning. So it'll be the milk and little bit of sweetener that I use because that will kick me out of fasting. So that's something I need to figure out. Stop eating sooner....have the coffee later....start drinking it black....not sure what I'll end up doing but giving it up altogether not a likely option.

As far as counting calories...I need to do it to make sure I eat enough. I have a bad habit of thinking that I'm eating enough but I'm actually way below what I should be. Or some days it's complete opposite and I think I'm doing good but if I counted I'd realize I just ate like 2 days worth of calories in one day. Counting keeps me honest. But again...I've slacked for a few months.


----------



## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

I'm doing coffee with a bit of half-n-half and a lot of coconut oil. Along with IF, I'm eating a fat heavy diet but not really going for full time ketosis. I just try to avoid carbs except during my evening meal and don't go overboard then. I'm trying to do 1 or 2 long, slow fasted rides a week to train the system to be more willing to burn fat for fuel. i also only fuel with essential amino acids after these types of rides ..waiting to eat for a few hours. This is not a weight-loss strategy, btw --I'm lean enough as it is. This strategy is NOT for people who are doing hard training day after day. You need to replenish your glucose stores for that type of work out. I'm doing lots of interval days but the training is sub 30 minutes.

When I lapse back into to general hammering the hell out of myself several days a week just because it is fun, I will be back to carb-ing up and not IF-ing I suppose.


----------



## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

IF guru Martin Berkhan says milk in your coffee won't screw up your fast.

Berkhan:
A tiny splash of milk in your coffee won’t affect anything either (½-1 teaspoon of milk per cup at the most - use sparingly and sensibly if you drink a lot of coffee).


But, uh, 1 teaspoon of milk? Is he joking? I drink black Sumatra daily, but on the occasion that I add dairy, I pour in the half and half.


----------



## korivo (Jan 2, 2011)

Been IF for a little while now.
Fasted from 8h00 / 9h00 PM untill 1h00 / 2h00 PM
I do CrossFit 3-4 times a week, at noon.
I train fasted, with BCAA just before the workout and the energy is thru the roof.

I will start riding soon and I would like to keep the same routine.
Weekly ride will be ok since I ride after work, so I will eat lunch before.
But weekend ride are happening early in the morning and are 3 + hours ride. 
Not sure its a good idea going into a long ride fasted.
I will fuel the ride with some form carbs so the fast is out the window anyway.

Anybody as experiment with similar IF protocol mixed with long morning ride ?
I will load up on carbs the night before, but should breakfast be in order before the ride ?


----------



## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

korivo said:


> Been IF for a little while now.
> Fasted from 8h00 / 9h00 PM untill 1h00 / 2h00 PM
> I do CrossFit 3-4 times a week, at noon.
> I train fasted, with BCAA just before the workout and the energy is thru the roof.
> ...


If I eat well the night before, I'll bring some snacks with me on the ride. And eat when I get hungry or feel like I'm running out of energy. I do IF during the week. On the weekend when I ride longer I don't follow it strictly.


----------



## GnarBrahWyo (Jun 4, 2012)

Old dead thread but I am resurrecting it. Love IF. Has helped me in every facet of fitness. Helped me lose 30 lbs and keep it off for over 2 years now. 
If you think about it, it's basically how our ancestors ate before we had McDonald's. Such ******** when people say it's not healthy to skip breakfast.


----------



## Power Meter City (Mar 28, 2016)

GnarBrahWyo said:


> Old dead thread but I am resurrecting it. Love IF. Has helped me in every facet of fitness. Helped me lose 30 lbs and keep it off for over 2 years now.
> If you think about it, it's basically how our ancestors ate before we had McDonald's. Such ******** when people say it's not healthy to skip breakfast.


How do you incorporate your training? During the fasting period or the feeding window? Seems like it would have to be during the fast...but I need fuel when I'm training


----------



## GnarBrahWyo (Jun 4, 2012)

Power Meter City said:


> How do you incorporate your training? During the fasting period or the feeding window? Seems like it would have to be during the fast...but I need fuel when I'm training


I don't really ride fasted. I usually ride in my eating window which is nice, because you kind of need carbs for fast twitch power but when you start to run out of liver glycogen, IF can be very beneficial because it teaches your body to more efficiently burn fat as fuel source.
My body is less prone to throw in the towel early on and my bonk comes much later. I have been doing IF for about 2 years. Occasionally I will drift away from it, but for the most part I eat breakfast at 1 pm after a gym workout. My last meal is usually at 6 pm. 
I do a 24 hour fast about once a month. I don't really do any hardcore intense exercise then but I will walk or ride the bike leisurely. 
My recommendation for IF newbs is to work up to it. I wish someone had told me that. Start off on a 14 hour fast, get used to to it, then try 16, 18, 20 etc.

EDIT: I did not mention this when I posted but I feel I should mention I now eat way less no before a ride. Before I used to stuff my face thinking I would die without carbs. Now I tend to have a light meal a couple hours before a ride and it sustains me pretty well. Now if I have a huge meal before a ride, I will feel tired and like garbage.


----------



## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

Power Meter City said:


> How do you incorporate your training? During the fasting period or the feeding window? Seems like it would have to be during the fast...but I need fuel when I'm training


I'll chime in. Big fan of IF but I only implement it during the work week (typical office job) by skipping breakfast, aiming for 16-18 hours without food. I ride 3 times per week but usually in the evening - by that time I've had a meal. I *never* engage in mountain biking (or lifting or any other high intensity exercise) before breaking my fast.


----------



## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

GnarBrahWyo said:


> Such ******** when people say it's not healthy to skip breakfast.


Anybody familiar with studies (or personal experience) as to whether *sometimes* IFing is problematic? I currently IF on random days (not consistent). I know it's *ideal* to standardize your eating schedule (hormone response, etc.) but I'm uninterested in having a rigid schedule or doing IF 7 days a week. I'm already down to my target weight, but find IFing helpful in maintaining my weight.


----------



## GnarBrahWyo (Jun 4, 2012)

Ryder1 said:


> Anybody familiar with studies (or personal experience) as to whether *sometimes* IFing is problematic? I currently IF on random days (not consistent). I know it's *ideal* to standardize your eating schedule (hormone response, etc.) but I'm uninterested in having a rigid schedule or doing IF 7 days a week. I'm already down to my target weight, but find IFing helpful in maintaining my weight.


I don't think there have been many studies pertaining to a mixed IF/all day eating cycle. I would speculate that doing occasional IF is totally fine. If you are a healthy body weight and do IF occasionally, your body is probably used to it. 
I do IF almost everyday, but this weekend for example, I went to a bachelor party in the mountains. I said screw it and grazed all day, was not hard to go back to my IF routine today. 
Sounds like you are doing just fine!


----------



## Ryder1 (Oct 12, 2006)

Thanks. I guess I regret not being able to standardize my eating scheduling (IF every day or not at all), but clearly not a big deal. 

I was riding yesterday when I suddenly reflected on a "You must eat breakfast within 1 hour" article I'd browsed earlier that day. I thought to myself: What would someone in an impoverished country think of overweight Americans being told they must wake up and eat in order to jump start their metabolism in order to loose weight? And being encouraged to eat every few hours - God forbid you enter the dreaded "Starvation Mode" and permanently damage your metabolism! When people tell me they're worried about entering Starvation Mode, I ask them how the hell they're going to lose weight if their stomach doesn't run out of calories and turn to its own fat reservoirs for energy???


----------



## GnarBrahWyo (Jun 4, 2012)

Ryder1 said:


> Thanks. I guess I regret not being able to standardize my eating scheduling (IF every day or not at all), but clearly not a big deal.
> 
> I was riding yesterday when I suddenly reflected on a "You must eat breakfast within 1 hour" article I'd browsed earlier that day. I thought to myself: What would someone in an impoverished country think of overweight Americans being told they must wake up and eat in order to jump start their metabolism in order to loose weight? And being encouraged to eat every few hours - God forbid you enter the dreaded "Starvation Mode" and permanently damage your metabolism! When people tell me they're worried about entering Starvation Mode, I ask them how the hell they're going to lose weight if their stomach doesn't run out of calories and turn to its own fat reservoirs for energy???


Haha the breakfast myth is hilarious. Most of those PSA's we saw as kids were funded by the food industry. The truth is most Americans could benefit from skipping meals considering the obesity epidemic we are seeing now. 
You can eat one giant meal a day and still perform at a high level once your body adapts to it. 
I wouldn't recommend riding a century fasted but rarely do I eat breakfast. Usually only if my girlfriend's parents are in town or I am going to do an all day ride.


----------



## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

Did quite a bit of IF last year but just getting back to it this year. I'm in Texas where it's too hot for me to do much other than steady pace rides (pace provides cooling breeze) or short efforts (get it over quick). IF works well with relatively steady pace rides where fat can more easily be substituted for glycogen. I do ride fasted but carry some sugar and aminos and try to hold off for an hour or two depending on how I feel. So I break the fast mid ride or so.


----------

