# Rims for Downhill...... Wider is Better? Tubeless? WTH, Superglue?



## E_braker (Mar 30, 2008)

For my Downhill riding I have always appreicated a larger tire (FRONTS: 2.7 Nevagal DH, 2.7 Minnion DHF, REAR: 2.35-2.7 similar model) for the bigger footprint, increase in traction. The bigger tire sucks however on rims with a "narrower" width, as you get a "floppy sidewall", increased pinch flats at lower pressures. 

SO: I am considering a tubeless setup this season, mainly to (slightly) decrease rotational mass, increase traction/tire performance. Mainly, I want to run a lower pressure without the pinch flat problem and my tires ALWAYS slipping on my rim (thus turning my tube and messing with my air stem). 

1) Is my solution a Crank Bros SAGE or OPIUM wheelset w/STANS? Are they wide enough at only 24mm internal width? Will the tire slip on the rim under hard braking?

2) If not, is my solution a super wide rim on a good 150mm hub and a Stans tubeless kit? Will sllippage be a prob?

3) Just freaking SuperGlue my tire to rim?? 


SUGGESTIONS please....


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## lalocotequinta (Mar 28, 2007)

I ran a set of Opiums last year and never had a problem withe them. Set and forget pretty much, never needed any sealant at all. I would just check for proper pressure once a month and that was it. I ran Minion F&R 2.5 and I'm sure you'd be fine running 2.7s.

I will be selling them because I want to try something else so pm me if you are interestd, they are in excellent shape/condition and will give you a deal.


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## weedkilla1 (Jan 1, 2009)

IMO if you are having tyres spin on the rim now then tubeless is not for you. I'm tubeless on both xc and DH and I have made at least a few of the mistakes possible along the way! Tubeless on a dh bike often means higher pressure than tubes, just to keep the tyre on the rim, folding the bead of the rim means instant zero pressure and at warp speed in the middle of a berm......
However - I find I get the same grip at 28F/30R psi tubeless as i did at 22F/24R psi tubed and I get the extra benefits of better rolling, no flats etc. I doubt that you'll get much lower than 28psi reliably in dh, and if you can feel the tyre squirm in cornering ADD PRESSURE! This is the "Danger, Will Robinson!" moment, because what comes next is burping, folding off the rim and one of those moments that fills your undies!
If you do decide to go tubeless, definitely go ghetto rather than ust or stans, its by far the most reliable and read Bullcrew's guide on ridemonkey forum for all the tips you'll need - even if you dont decide to go tubeless then maybe try his stans on the bead idea - that should stick your tyre on plenty well enough.


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

really? ghetto is more reliable than ust or stans? link?


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## weedkilla1 (Jan 1, 2009)

Yep, for dh use the biggest issue is rolling the tyre off the rim or denting a rim so badly it wont seal. Ghetto reduces the risk of both, as the cut tube is glued to the tyre with stans. 
And link - http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240026


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## Tim F. (May 22, 2006)

I prefere getto as well, even over UST rims. As far as folding a tire off the rim, I did it once on a steep section onto solid uneven granite...it's not a pleasant expiriance.


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

weedkilla1 said:


> Yep, for dh use the biggest issue is rolling the tyre off the rim or denting a rim so badly it wont seal. Ghetto reduces the risk of both, as the cut tube is glued to the tyre with stans.
> And link - http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240026


huh. interesting read, thanks :thumbsup:


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## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

weedkilla1 said:


> Yep, for dh use the biggest issue is rolling the tyre off the rim or denting a rim so badly it wont seal. Ghetto reduces the risk of both, as the cut tube is glued to the tyre with stans.
> And link - http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240026


LOL, what a load of garbage.
A good mate of mine weights around 240, he's been using stans for the last 6-7 yrs, maybe more. He has never had the tyre roll of the rim, he has never dented his rims and he is a pretty aggressive DH'er. He has had zero issues todate.


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

SV11 said:


> LOL, what a load of garbage.
> A good mate of mine weights around 240, he's been using stans for the last 6-7 yrs, maybe more. He has never had the tyre roll of the rim, he has never dented his rims and he is a pretty aggressive DH'er. He has had zero issues todate.


it does make sense though. think of all the extra friction split tube ghetto puts on the bead of a tire holding it on. im not discounting your friends experiance but thinking objectivly...


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## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

b-kul said:


> it does make sense though. think of all the extra friction split tube ghetto puts on the bead of a tire holding it on. im not discounting your friends experiance but thinking objectivly...


I think I'll stick with real world experiences.


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## Quarashi (Aug 23, 2006)

SV11 said:


> I think I'll stick with real world experiences.


Kind of silly to write off one a whole thread as rubbish due to the experience of one person. There have obviously been plenty of others who haven't been as lucky. Or perhaps aggressive DH has different standards.

Anyway, something a little more relevant. If I went ghetto, would it matter if I used an ultra thin BMX tube or one on the thicker side?


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## weedkilla1 (Jan 1, 2009)

I dont find any difference in what tube I use - just depends if you want to be a weight weenie.
And really sv11, you know someone who has been DHing for 6-7 years who hasn't dented a rim? Must be a lot smoother rider than me.


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## Pedal Shop (Dec 14, 2006)

SV11 said:


> LOL, what a load of garbage.
> A good mate of mine weights around 240, he's been using stans for the last 6-7 yrs, maybe more. He has never had the tyre roll of the rim, he has never dented his rims and he is a pretty aggressive DH'er. He has had zero issues todate.


l have this set of Maxxis tubeless converters which are pretty much the same thing.

sorta

they're like a Stan's tubeless rim strips however, they actually extend past the rim so when you're all set up, you can see the rim strip sticking out between the tire and the rim.

l have used them for freeridin' but never DH. they hold air a really long time, much longer than tubeless or even tubes for some reason.

Maxxis stopped making them several years ago so, once these things go, that's it...

l don't use them anymore... l didn't like the weight of pure tubeless tires and l'm guessing they stopped making them because the tire can fold off the rim too easy. it never actually happened to me but l bet l just got lucky.

l had used pure tubeless on XC bikes (tubeless tires with tubeless rims) -- l had tires roll off the rim at least 4 times, not doing anything hardcore at all. cars, sure... motorcycles... not doubt.... l'll stick with tube'd when it comes to bicycles.


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

Quarashi said:


> Anyway, something a little more relevant. If I went ghetto, would it matter if I used an ultra thin BMX tube or one on the thicker side?


according to bullcrew it didnt matter. and really sv11? write off bullcrews findings because i hypothesised on the forces at play?


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

I have burped maybe twice riding UST for several years now. Once off a 3 or 4 foot drop into a badly washed out rut. It let out a few pounds of pressure, it was not a complete loss of control and it did not result in a wreck. I've had a few pinch flats with narrow XC tires as well but that is more of a function of poor form and not enough air in the tires. There's something to be said for using a little finesse.


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## E_braker (Mar 30, 2008)

So, it seems as though Stans w/rim treatment/ maybe Ghetto Tubeless is the way to go for my needs. So from everyones experience, how much does rim width play in the tire rolling? 

It seems as though (expecially a larger tire, like a 2.7), has more sidewall and therefore should have a wider rim to decrease the likelyhood of the rolling, right?


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## Quarashi (Aug 23, 2006)

Has anyone thought of trying to seal the rim at the spoke holes? It would be a boat load of work and you might get the hollow part of the rim filled with stans gunk over time but I'd imagine it would be a hell of a lot lighter.

Also, would a tire/ghetto tubeless interface really be more solid than a tire/rim interface? Seeing as the rim actually has a bead lock groove, which on some manufacturers is advertised to be especially strong (ie: syncros anti-rolling thingymajig), I find it hard to imagine how an adhesive, that really isn't that strong, could bond the tire and the bmx tube stronger than the rim/tire interface. Sure they'd stick together but with the jerking forces of hard riding and braking, wouldn't the rubber-on-rubber contact slide? Especially say in wet conditions? Thanks to anyone who might explain!


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## Quarashi (Aug 23, 2006)

Just had an idea and I thought it deserved it's own post. 

Has anyone thought of cutting thin strips of a DH tube and super-glue-ing them to the top of the wall of the rim (the pinch in pinch flat) and then using light XC tubes? Or why manufacturers don't make rims with some kind of durable soft rubber bit on that same top portion instead of just metal?

Never heard of an approach like that before. Anyone know why it wouldn't work?


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

Quarashi said:


> Has anyone thought of trying to seal the rim at the spoke holes? It would be a boat load of work and you might get the hollow part of the rim filled with stans gunk over time but I'd imagine it would be a hell of a lot lighter.
> 
> Also, would a tire/ghetto tubeless interface really be more solid than a tire/rim interface? Seeing as the rim actually has a bead lock groove, which on some manufacturers is advertised to be especially strong (ie: syncros anti-rolling thingymajig), I find it hard to imagine how an adhesive, that really isn't that strong, could bond the tire and the bmx tube stronger than the rim/tire interface. Sure they'd stick together but with the jerking forces of hard riding and braking, wouldn't the rubber-on-rubber contact slide? Especially say in wet conditions? Thanks to anyone who might explain!


just a guess, but i think the tube forms to the rim so well it forms to the bead hook too and with the tube its now rubber on rubber instead of rubber on metal. just my thoughts. but i know this for a fact, split tube ghetto adds like 30 grams without selant, just to plug the holes would probably be 10 grams. you are looking at maybe a 20 gram savings which i feel is hardly worth it.


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## Quarashi (Aug 23, 2006)

b-kul said:


> just a guess, but i think the tube forms to the rim so well it forms to the bead hook too and with the tube its now rubber on rubber instead of rubber on metal. just my thoughts. but i know this for a fact, split tube ghetto adds like 30 grams without selant, just to plug the holes would probably be 10 grams. you are looking at maybe a 20 gram savings which i feel is hardly worth it.


30 grams... that's a lot lighter than I thought. Definitely going to give it a shot. Just going from a DH tube to an XC tube on my front wheel made such a big difference, the weight savings alone should make it worth it.


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

Quarashi said:


> 30 grams... that's a lot lighter than I thought. Definitely going to give it a shot. Just going from a DH tube to an XC tube on my front wheel made such a big difference, the weight savings alone should make it worth it.


for sure. you dont have to but i always go with a tlr or 2bliss tire when tubeless on a standard rim. its probably all in my mind but i feel better knowing my tire has a beefed up bead. and there is hardly a weight penalty over a regular folding tire. :thumbsup:


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## Quarashi (Aug 23, 2006)

b-kul said:


> for sure. you dont have to but i always go with a tlr or 2bliss tire when tubeless on a standard rim. its probably all in my mind but i feel better knowing my tire has a beefed up bead. and there is hardly a weight penalty over a regular folding tire. :thumbsup:


I had a tubeless highroller before. It felt like a single ply with a thick, sticky bead. I'm curious about using 2ply instead for the sidewall. I very impressed with how it held up coming from a year on a single ply 2.5 minion. 2.5 dual ply minion never pinched despite countless rim hits and on an XC tube.

What's a bigger preventative measure against burping, the side wall or the bead?


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

no clue, both seem pretty vital to me. i'll let someone in the know field that.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

weedkilla1 said:


> Yep, for dh use the biggest issue is rolling the tyre off the rim or denting a rim so badly it wont seal. Ghetto reduces the risk of both, as the cut tube is glued to the tyre with stans.
> And link - http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240026


first off that is one riders opinion....I know bullcrew and he is a heck of a rider

secondly here is another opinion...take it with a grain of salt

I love the Mavic 823's I got my first set back in 2004 they had them as the 3.1's or something back then...I always used Stans with my set ups

what I have learned...it depends on tire...I have had the best success with michelins other tires burp and leak air (still have not tried maxxis ust though)

*TO ORIGINAL POSTER*
Try runbning more air...lower pressures means the tires will roll on the rims when turning....which gives you worst stability at high speeds./...a tire should never be under 20psi in front and 25 rear IMO.....if you are under these numbers then your skills are not matching the trails you are riding and you might want to ride easer trails


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## E_braker (Mar 30, 2008)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> *TO ORIGINAL POSTER*
> Try runbning more air...lower pressures means the tires will roll on the rims when turning....which gives you worst stability at high speeds./...a tire should never be under 20psi in front and 25 rear IMO.....if you are under these numbers then your skills are not matching the trails you are riding and you might want to ride easer trails


Thanks for the advice SMT (& everyone else), the front/rear pressures that you are mentioning are very reasonable, and one that I have never go under. Just like in any racing, tire choice and tire pressure play a HUGE part.

Front (and rear) slippage from braking @ anything pressure below 30-31psi. This slippage isn't something I "feel", but is visually apparent after a run; the valve stem is bent at 45 degrees and my tube and tire have obviously slipped on the rim.

Some trails have different conditions where I need a little more traction and 2--4psi difference (ie @ F:24, R26-27psi) makes the bike feel perfect for high speed corners, optimal traction and minimal pinch flats.

@SMT: Saying I am riding trails above my level may be a bit presumptive. I am just trying to tune my tires to that perfect comprimise, within the triangle of traction performance, pinch flatting safety and stability. I have found WHERE I need to be within it, I just need to see how others have successfully gotten there.


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## roxtar (Sep 7, 2009)

The big concern I had as I was reading the ghetto thread was that you no longer have the rim's bead hook touching the tire.
This would seem to make it far easier to pop or roll the bead this way. 
I'd think the small amount of adhesion provided by the latex would be a poor substitute for a the bead hook.


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## charvey9 (May 13, 2010)

I love my Stans Flow wheels so far. Really light and durable enough to hold up to most DH riding.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

E_braker said:


> @SMT: Saying I am riding trails above my level may be a bit presumptive. I am just trying to tune my tires to that perfect comprimise, within the triangle of traction performance, pinch flatting safety and stability. I have found WHERE I need to be within it, I just need to see how others have successfully gotten there.


just stating....there is no need to run like 10 or 12 pounds in a tire (which people do tubeless)

the beauty about tubeless ...is you can run it with a higher psi, but it feels like the lower pressures of running tubes....I don't like leaning into a corner and having the tire wallow through the corner...very frustrating and scary...depending on trail anywhere from 25 to 28 in front...30 to 35 in back....when racing I would run 28 to 32 in front and 40 to 45 rear


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## Rasterman (Jan 23, 2008)

roxtar said:


> The big concern I had as I was reading the ghetto thread was that you no longer have the rim's bead hook touching the tire.
> This would seem to make it far easier to pop or roll the bead this way.
> I'd think the small amount of adhesion provided by the latex would be a poor substitute for a the bead hook.


I read the whole howto and I agree with this, there is no way a non-beaded rubber tube is going to be more sturdy than the bead of the tire in the rim. To get around the problems of all of these issues the tire manufactures simply need to make a proper tire, one that is fully enclosed with a valve, like a inner tube with tread, or a normal tire with built in valve and tube near the rim. This would solve the problem of pinch flats, converting to tubeless, sealant, leaks, and properly locking the bead in.


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

SV11 said:


> he has never dented his rims and he is a pretty aggressive DH'er.


Ha ha ha ha ha. No we know you are lying.


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## E_braker (Mar 30, 2008)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> just stating....there is no need to run like 10 or 12 pounds in a tire (which people do tubeless)
> 
> the beauty about tubeless ...is you can run it with a higher psi, but it feels like the lower pressures of running tubes....I also don't like leaning into a corner and having the tire wallow through the corner...very frustrating and scary...depending on trail anywhere from 25 to 28 in front...30 to 35 in back....when racing I would run 28 to 32 in front and 40 to 45 rear


SMT, gotcha onthe 10-12psi, that is CRAZY low (that is unless you are riding in THICK snow or swamp mud).The other numbers you mention will be pretty helpful. can definatly understand those pressures on a thinner rim to ensure a "firm" sidewall. I also hate a mushy wallowing tire through a corner.

It seems crazy, but now have a list of rims that I'll be experimenting with. Going to show/experiment with Same tire, & vary Rim widths, probably going to start off with a ghetto tubeless setup. (all numbers are INNER WIDTH):

21mm (Mavic D521)
24mm (CB Sage)
27mm (WTB Laserdisc DH)
29mm (Mavic 729)
32mm (Alex DH32)
35mm (Nimbus Muni)
40mm (Kris Holm FR)

Thinking about testing 2.7" Kenda Nev's, 2.7" Minion DHF, & a 2.35" Minion DHF. Hoping to show different profiles and weighted tires.

Kind of doing this because, surprisingly, I couldnt find anything like this on the web anywhere. Surprising, because tires are probably the most overlooked performance-enhancing component. That and suspension tuning maybe.

Now just working on finding a few more 20mm hubs (need 2-36h & 1 32h). SOOO......If anyone has some parts they want to donate... or sell for cheap.


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## clockwork (Dec 9, 2006)

I can tell you a minion on a 729 is 3/8ths wider and 1/4 taller than a minion mounted to 823.


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## roxtar (Sep 7, 2009)

Rasterman said:


> I read the whole howto and I agree with this, there is no way a non-beaded rubber tube is going to be more sturdy than the bead of the tire in the rim. To get around the problems of all of these issues the tire manufactures simply need to make a proper tire, one that is fully enclosed with a valve, like a inner tube with tread, or a normal tire with built in valve and tube near the rim. This would solve the problem of pinch flats, converting to tubeless, sealant, leaks, and properly locking the bead in.


Stan's rims have an incredible bead hook design that fixes this problem.
I built a set of lightweight wheels for my wife's bike last year using Stan's Olympic rims.
The tire bead actually gets pinched and held tight on the rim; similar to a car tire. You actually have to "break" the bead/rim connection when you take off the tire.


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## Ithnu (Feb 16, 2007)

I rode a set of Sun Ringle ADD ghetto tubeless a few years ago. Sun Ringle makes Stans, this year they are even branding their wheels with a Stans logo and including the kit, but they've been using the same bead for years. The ADDs worked great ghetto, zero flats on the year.

For the last 2 years I've been running Mavic 823s. Zero flats as well (well I had a Kenda tire puncture but that's because Kenda non UST tires erode with sealant).

Differences I noticed? 

Well ghetto is more work to set up and does lose air. Not much air, maybe a few psi over a day of resort riding. I never had them burp though. If you run 823s with UST and 1/2 a cup of Stans (versus 1-2 for ghetto) you will lose almost no air but I have had 823s burp once in a while.

823s are expensive compared to Sun Ringle, but 823s are ridiculously strong. You may go through a rim after a year of riding with Sun, I did, but they are much much cheaper. I'm on 2 years with the same 823s. 

So I think its a wash except for the man hours to set up ghetto. Which you have to do every time you change the tire.


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## roxtar (Sep 7, 2009)

Oh, and as far as recommending wide rims, I love my EX729s; very wide and burly as hell.
I'm using a Hadley rear and and older Hope BigUn front for a wheelset that should outlive the cockroaches in nuclear winter


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## colin1 (Jan 6, 2009)

E_braker said:


> Thinking about testing 2.7" Kenda Nev's, 2.7" Minion DHF, & a 2.35" Minion DHF. Hoping to show different profiles and weighted tires.
> 
> .


If you haven't used them before, those 2.35 Minions are hella skinny - like a 2.1 on my 521 rims.
Colin


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## E_braker (Mar 30, 2008)

colin1 said:


> If you haven't used them before, those 2.35 Minions are hella skinny - like a 2.1 on my 521 rims.
> Colin


Ya, that is pretty true, the 2.35 Minions are really small.

Kind of going with the "Small, Medium, Large" sizes:

___TIRE__________ETRTO______ACTUAL___________WEIGHT________
2.35_Minion:_______52-559______2.05" x 22.01"_______1080g
2.7__Minion:_______59-559______2.32" x 22.01"_______1320g 
2.7__Kenda Nevgl___67-559______2.64" x 22.01"_______1440g (+/- 70g)

Its always amazing to me how Maxxis gets by with such inaccurate numbers. Anyways, I thought these 3 tires represented a nice range of popular tire sizes and models.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

*Rim Widths*

For a 2.7" Minion I recommend a 27-29mm rim. My current favorite is the Syncros DS32. Cover the spokes holes with Stan's tape or 2 layers of duct tape, no need for a rubber rim strip. They will work on a 24mm rim but will not feel as good, you'd be better off running 2.5" Minions on that.


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## colin1 (Jan 6, 2009)

E_braker said:


> Ya, that is pretty true, the 2.35 Minions are really small.
> 
> Kind of going with the "Small, Medium, Large" sizes:
> 
> ...


Thanks for those numbers.


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## E_braker (Mar 30, 2008)

Lelandjt said:


> For a 2.7" Minion I recommend a 27-29mm rim. My current favorite is the Syncros DS32. Cover the spokes holes with Stan's tape or 2 layers of duct tape, no need for a rubber rim strip. They will work on a 24mm rim but will not feel as good, you'd be better off running 2.5" Minions on that.


That seems about right, using the 1.45-2 ratio, supposedly a 29mm INNER, would be correct. I think the measurements on the DS32 is 32mm OUTSIDE and 25mm INSIDE, correct?

*RANT:*
I wish we could get the tire and rim industry on the same page and come up with a damn standard in what we are buying. PLEASE allow your buyers to be 'ejumacated' on products so we can make decisions based on things other than marketing hype. The lack of factual/scientific information backing many of these biking products is bordering on blatantly bloated BS.
*
RIM COMPANIES*: It is freaking simple: give the outside and inside rim width. Why just the outside? The (inside/inner/bead width) is the REAL number that matters. This is a piss poor excuse for company ethics, as (like the tire manufacturers have done) it is simply a marketing strategy where they are attempting to convince people that their rims are still "wide/wider" yet "lighter". This is becoming an accepted practice. Some doing so intentionally, some unintentionally just to keep up with competitors. To get information for most rims, you have to call the customer service/tech support to get the inner.

*TIRE COMPANIES*: Thank you for at least posting your actual ISO/ETRTO (which some were FORCED into because it was getting SOOO out of control), BUT why continue with the misleading and deceptive inch/SAE information/designation? Why?.... Because it is a simple marketing strategy. An unethical strategy that has been going on for 25 years, and been allowed to continue for TOO LONG. This needs to stop now. It is unacceptable, and you are knocking on the door of a lawsuit (ever heard of the bit/byte/MB/GB loss/hassle costs???) If people are going to be as pissy about that, it is only a matter of time before you find the right people (in biking) who will do the same. The only ones you will have to blame will be yourselves. As opposed to the bit/GB (which was personally, more of a technical misunderstanding), your is a boldfaced misrepresentation of sizes.

*EXAMPLE*: If I buy a 2.7" Minion and it is over 15% smaller than what I purchased....just so you can claim a "lighter" weight 2.7" tire than competitors???? ARE YOU SERIOUS??? Maxxis, you make AMAZING tires, there is no need to grossly misrepresent your products.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

FWIW...

Last year I ran Sun Singletrack rims (yeah yeah, I know, but they're CHEAP as heck) on DT 440 hubs with DT Alpine III spokes. Ran the appropriate Stan's strip inside with some goop. Mainly I ran them with Nevegal 2.7 DH (which is, I think, properly a "wee bit" large for that rim).

The Neve was incredibly difficult to mount and un-mount. It's a good thing I never actually needed to take them off until I broke my frame and the replacement couldn't take the 2.7 on the back. I honestly had nil issues with air pressure, only checking it at the start of each riding day. Rode intermittently at Diablo, tons at Blue Mountain by Palmerton PA, and one weekend at Plattekill. Hits some big stuff, hit some fast stuff, hit LOTS of rocks. No problems.

My replacement tire for the back (switching frames, remember) was a Minon 2.7 DHR Super Tacky. Stupid smaller than the Nevegal (which I knew was likely and why I tried it). Worked great, was just wore fast (which I expected, but since I got it on sale cheap I didn't care).

I don't have a precise measurement of the inner width of the Singletrack rims but I do know that the Stan's Flow rim fits inside the inner walls - so it's gotta be on the order of 28-29 mm. I've kept some measurements (reasonably accurate) of the various tires I've mounted on the Singletracks all inflated to 30 psi.

Note: The height measurement is from the inside rim wall (hub facing) to the outside, so take the ERD of the Singletracks is 543mm, so that plus the H measurement will tell you how tall the wheel is overall.

Nevegal 2.7, 68w, 80h
Telonix 2.6, 67w, 78h
Excavator 2.5, 63w, 75h
Gazaloddi 3.0, 71w, 83h
Intense DHEX 2.5, 69w, 75h
Intense 909exdc 2.5, 67w, 73h
Minion DHR 1ply 2.5, 58w, 74h
Minion DHR 2ply 2.7, 56w, 71h
WTB Dissent 2.5 DH, 66w, 73h

PS. I've run both Intense tires in the list tubeless without issue. They seemed true to size.

PPS. I triple checked the measurements of the two DHR's - the 2.5 single-ply measures out larger. I expect this is from the casing inflating more since it's a lighter-weight casing. Dunno. Sure isn't loosing air fast or anything. Longest single day I've had on the 1ply was 7.5 hours of AM riding (about 34 miles worth) with lots of rocks and fun downhill stretches. No problems.

Technotes
- mounting tubless, don't forget to 'lube't he bead when mounting the tire. Watch the Stan's videos on it. It's makes it easier to hook up the inflation and set it up.
- if using rim strips (like Stan's) then having the spoke bend UNDER the strip built up with tape of some sort to enable the rim-stream to go easily rim-wall-to-rim-wall will help make a better seal.
- start with high pressure in the tires (30 psi +/-) and slowly work your way down - without tubes they'll be more inherently compliant to the terrain and you won't need as low pressure as you may think and excessively low psi can be tire-fatal and body-painful like others have mentioned.
- when inflating the tire to mount it, make sure the tire bead is well to either side of the valve and that the valve is not restricting airflow at all. Things mount most easily if the tire bead is resting against your strip all the way around - not loose.
- if you find it incredibly hard to get the tire to seal up on the rim - give up and put in a tube, chances are it's not going to be reliable on the trail.

> 1 day later, added the Telonix. Not quite, but dang close to size of the Nevegal 2.7. I think it's the tread size.
> couple days later, added Excavator. Not *hugely* smaller than the Telonix 2.6 but decisively so.


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## berny2435 (Feb 21, 2009)

so has anyone just tried gluing a split tube to the inside of the tire before putting the tire on the rim?

-Measure approximate width of tube needed to sit inside the inner width of tire when seated in rim, buy a large enough tube and split it. 
-clean tube with alcohol on both sides and let dry
-Clean inside of tires where the tube will essentially glue to the tire, let dry for like 10 minutes
-lube the inside of the tire thoroughly with stans sealant
- insert tube into tire and glue down, probably let sit a little while
- wet bead of rim
- tough part = getting tire onto rim without messing up tube to inner tire bond. 
- probably could even do this with an actual rubber adhesive

or maybe

Use a large 20" BMX tube like below 1.75 to 2.125" size, could probably even work with 24" tube well http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=21317&category=1773

kind of do like above but
- tape rim spoke holes as normal
- Pre-coat rim with sealant especially in the bead
- put a few pin holes in 20" around cirumference on top side of tire
- clean tube and insert into rim
- Lube inside of tire liberally with sealant
- mount tire
- inflate

if the pin holes aren't made to large, the tube shout help push out tire well enough to lock in the bead. Then the magic sealant glues the tube to the tire and viola.. .

am I crazy or ???


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

E_braker said:


> The measurements on the DS32 is 32mm OUTSIDE and 25mm INSIDE, correct?


27mm inside


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## berny2435 (Feb 21, 2009)

E_braker said:


> clip
> 
> *RANT:*
> Iclip
> ...


getting rim and tire companies on the same page would be like herding cats. They can't even get Automotive tire companies on the same page with tire widths. It's common to have some that are larger or smaller than the dimensions they say they are. Why do they do it? Marketing or on accident or on purpose so their tires become the new favorite cheater tire for racing b/c some classes are limited to DOT size ____ and when a manufacturer says is a 245 but it's actually a 255, the customer WINS!!!

I can understand why companies only post outer width. My thoughts are 
1.) it's actually a good measurement to give as it does give you a clue to how much support the tire will get when it gets smashed?? haha
2.) the inside width depends largely on what design the lip has
3.) companies like posting big numbers for marketing. They are likely going to get more "uniformed" sales off of big numbers


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## E_braker (Mar 30, 2008)

berny2435,

I hear ya on the automotive specs, I am sure auto tires have settled into some sort of industry accepted "deviation" of specifications, Probably within about 3-5% (guessing).

...BUT, about 15%?!?!! That simply borders on unethical. The "racing" aspect makes sense for certain car racing..., But NOT for mountain biking as those type of constraints are not used. Why not at least use 'relatively' accurate measures. I still not sold.

I must be feeling argumentative....


berny2435 said:


> I can understand why companies only post outer width.
> 1.) it's actually a good measurement to give as it does give you a clue to how much support the tire will get when it gets smashed?? haha


I agree, it should be listed,but, LOL, "IN ADDITION TO" the inner. If They are only giving one number, they SHOULD specify if it is the INNER or OUTER


berny2435 said:


> 2.) the inside width depends largely on what design the lip has


This proves my point that inner is the more important spec. Say you want a certain width, for example 25mm inner. Some rims lips designs are between 2mm and 6.5mm. When choosing a rim, this a variation of 9mm!!!! (13mm-4mm=9mm) That is a HUGE difference. Add that together with the unclearly stating inner/outer, you are left guessing and assuming. 


berny2435 said:


> 3.) companies like posting big numbers for marketing. They are likely going to get more "uniformed" sales off of big numbers


Its the freak'n MAN, trying to bring us down.... AN-AR-CHY!!, AN-AR-CHY!!!


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

I don't know what people are talking about my 2.55 weirwolf LT are 2.55" wide....when mounted on a 47mm rim at 50 PSI!

The fact that when run on a normal rim at normal pressures makes them a 2.3" is pure coincidence =-)


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## steve47co1 (May 18, 2005)

*Running Minion DHF 2.7's tubeless for 3 years now*

on 823's with Stan's sealant @ 30psi front and 35psi back - riding weight 210. I have run this setup on a Demo 8, Demo 7, SX Trail, and I will be running this setup on a new SX Trail this year. My experience is that one of the 2 factors has to be present to make tubeless work w/out failure. UST tires on a non-UST rim or vice versa. The Minion 2.7 DH 3C has a 2 ply sidewall and a great bead. No burps. I was an early adopter of tubeless 10 years ago on the first generation Mavic Crossmax's - I have had a whopping two flats in that time - both were on XC bikes and thorns; the first one without sealant; the second with and I got it back on the rim and rode it out. It is a no-brainer for me - I carry a "pity" tube in my pack for people that have flats and I get to take a break while they perform the PITA maneuvers to fix their tires. :thumbsup:


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## colin1 (Jan 6, 2009)

steve47co1 said:


> on 823's with Stan's sealant @ 30psi front and 35psi back - riding weight 210. I have run this setup on a Demo 8, Demo 7, SX Trail, and I will be running this setup on a new SX Trail this year. My experience is that one of the 2 factors has to be present to make tubeless work w/out failure. UST tires on a non-UST rim or vice versa. The Minion 2.7 DH 3C has a 2 ply sidewall and a great bead. No burps. I was an early adopter of tubeless 10 years ago on the first generation Mavic Crossmax's - I have had a whopping two flats in that time - both were on XC bikes and thorns; the first one without sealant; the second with and I got it back on the rim and rode it out. It is a no-brainer for me - I carry a "pity" tube in my pack for people that have flats and I get to take a break while they perform the PITA maneuvers to fix their tires. :thumbsup:


Dude, you're saying UST tires with non-UST rims? I have been running ghetto for some time - I wonder if I could just get way with some tape over the spoke holes and UST tires???


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