# It's 2012 -- Tune vs DT 240 hubs (& Enve v AX-Lightness wheelset)



## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

So...I'm making the jump from tubeless to a tubular wheel set after a enough time on tubulars on the road & CX. I'm curious for opinions on my hub selection.

I've currently got an Enve XC 29 wheelset set up with Racing Ralphs, tubeless. These use a Cannondale SL front hub (Lefty) and a DT240 rear. 

I'm debating between a set of Enve XC 29 tubular rims or AX Lightness. I weigh <70kg w/o gear, so I'm well within the AX Lightness guidelines. The AX rims are about 50g lighter for the set. I want to use these on a lightweight Cannondale Flash 29er (hardtail) build.

I'm considering lacing either up to a set of Tunes or DT Swiss hubs.

Primary benefit of Tune is weight: Lighter than DT (344g for a Cannondale SL + DT 240 vs 304g for a Tune Cannonball + Kong vs 279g for a Tune Cannonball SL + Prince)

Drawbacks:
* Fewer points of engagement for Tune (24 v 36 for a 240 w/ the star ratchet upgrade)
* Both Tune and DT240 can be switched between QR135 and 12x142, though it is easier for the DT240. I think about sometimes using the tubular wheelset on my Scalpel (12x142), but this is probably unlikely.
* Have Tune reliability issues been solved? I've read about Tune hub failures in the past, but nothing recent. Can anyone give an update for 2012?

Also, as far as rims go, I know the Env rims are pretty tough. Does anyone know about these AX Lightness rims? If a rock hit is enough to harm the AX rim, will it also harm the Enve? I'm also based in the US, so presumably Enve is a bit easier to work with than AX/Tune in the event of an issue.

When talking about a full wheelset, the weights are 1225 for Enve w/ DT, 1145 for Enve w/ Tune Kong vs 1134 for AX w/ Tune King and ~1090 for AX w/ Tune Prince.

I tend to choose smoother lines and would use the tubeless wheelset with beefier tires for the rockiest trails. I do have relatively high power-weight and enjoy climbing, so I wonder about the points of engagement.

Thanks! Comments and opinions are welcome.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

DT Swiss have have become the Swiss army knives of hubs, they're easy to service, easy to upgrade to new standards and features (like all the axles and freehubs). And they're reliable as a Swiss bank. I would definitely look at the DT 240S (or 190S hubs if you want to crazy sideways) for reliability and serviceability. 

Personally I'd also look at ENVE rims as they are bombproof.


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## Roadsters (Jul 7, 2008)

I have five bikes and six pairs of wheels - all with DT 240 hubs front and rear. I've just never had a reason to use anything else.


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

Thanks for the comments. I have a set of 240 hubs on Enve rimes (tubeless) and know how they can be pretty trouble-fee.

Anyone have any 1st-hand experience with current generation Tune hubs (and/or AX rims)? Searches I've done have only turned up issues with older Tune hubs.

Part of my motivation with this wheelset is to go light, but I don't want to make major sacrifices in durability. The difference in weight between Enve tubulars with DTs and AX rims with the lighter tunes is about 150g. That may not sound like much but 50g here, 150g there, etc, adds up to 1-1.5#.

My real question is can the AX rims and Tune hubs hold up or are there issues? I know the Enves/DTs will hold up, but if I can save the weight and still have reliability then that is good for me.

(I know the significance of 150g will come up with the typical 'lose some weight' comments, but (a) the two re not mutually exclusive and (b) I'm already 8-9% body fat...and (c) this is just lightweight project.)

THANKS!


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

I have a season and a half on the new Tune Prince/Princess hubs with the 17mm axle.These have been great - no issues, they roll so nice and just seem so fast. I haven't heard of any issues with the new style Tune hubs.
If you are looking to go light ,what about the Extralite hubs as they are lighter then the Tune's. If you go with either of these I would purchase them from Fairwheel bikes. I got both my Tune & Extralite hubs from them & their CS is top notch, I had an issue with a non-Tune product & they took care of me right away.


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

xc71 said:


> I have a season and a half on the new Tune Prince/Princess hubs with the 17mm axle.These have been great - no issues, they roll so nice and just seem so fast. I haven't heard of any issues with the new style Tune hubs.
> If you are looking to go light ,what about the Extralite hubs as they are lighter then the Tune's. If you go with either of these I would purchase them from Fairwheel bikes. I got both my Tune & Extralite hubs from them & their CS is top notch, I had an issue with a non-Tune product & they took care of me right away.


thanks for sharing your experience. mind sharing your weight and the type of riding you do?

what rims?

good question about the extralites. i seemed to encounter more stories of durability issues for real mountain biking with the extralites, so i was thinking the weight savings for them would NOT be worth that trade-off. i was hoping the tunes would be nearly as light (approx 20g more) while being more durable.

am i mistaken?


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

I've got a season on the Tune Kong rear hub with 17mm axle. It's been a good hub. I don't find the 24 poe a problem and I ride a lot of technical, trials-like trails with it. I choose it for my race wheelset over the DT240s because of the weight savings and it was actually the same price as DT240s. I liked the wheelset so much that I pretty much use it all the time.


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

TigWorld said:


> I've got a season on the Tune Kong rear hub with 17mm axle. It's been a good hub. I don't find the 24 poe a problem and I ride a lot of technical, trials-like trails with it. I choose it for my race wheelset over the DT240s because of the weight savings and it was actually the same price as DT240s. I liked the wheelset so much that I pretty much use it all the time.


Thanks! I have ridden the DT240 with 18 POE (before doing the upgrade), and it was pretty much fine, so 24 POE should be good.

I've heard the Prince hub is now the same mechanism as the King (Kong?), so that is a better sign for durability than how it used to be.

I've heard with the Tune it is _possible_, though not _easy_, to switch from QR135 to 12x142. any comments on that?


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

tetonrider2 said:


> thanks for sharing your experience. mind sharing your weight and the type of riding you do?
> 
> what rims?
> 
> ...


22 grams lighter for the Extralite rear over a Tune Prince. 29 grams lighter with Extralite front over Tune Princess. Note: my front Extralite was 76 grams, Fairwheel is claiming newest version @ 68 grams.
I'm 150 lbs. Canadian Rockies = lots of steep up & down, rocky, lots of roots, often wet. I would agree with Tig that Tune POE is not an issue. I hard pretty hard but I'm not doing huge jumps or drops. Both bikes are 26"
Tune Hubs, Sapim Superspoke, Sapim alum. nipples, Alpine rims = 1196 grams.
Extralite hubs, Sapim CX-Ray spokes, Pillar alum. nipples, Enve XC rims = 1169 grams.


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

xc71 said:


> 22 grams lighter for the Extralite rear over a Tune Prince. 29 grams lighter with Extralite front over Tune Princess. Note: my front Extralite was 76 grams, Fairwheel is claiming newest version @ 68 grams.
> I'm 150 lbs. Canadian Rockies = lots of steep up & down, rocky, lots of roots, often wet. I would agree with Tig that Tune POE is not an issue. I hard pretty hard but I'm not doing huge jumps or drops. Both bikes are 26"
> Tune Hubs, Sapim Superspoke, Sapim alum. nipples, Alpine rims = 1196 grams.
> Extralite hubs, Sapim CX-Ray spokes, Pillar alum. nipples, Enve XC rims = 1169 grams.


thanks for taking the time to provide additional comments.

i'm using a lefty, so the savings on the front hub is minimal (5g at best). there's not much variance between an extralite, tune, cannondale SL.

how do you rate the performance of the extralites vs the tunes? engagement? durability?

how easy (if at all possible) is it to switch the extralite rear from QR135 to 12x142?

if you had to choose one set of hubs, which would it be?

i like light weight but not at all costs. glad to get the feedback from a rider who is definitely riding steep an rocky terrain.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

The Extralite HyperHubs are lighter and I haven't heard of a single issue with them. 36 POE.


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

sfer1 said:


> The Extralite HyperHubs are lighter and I haven't heard of a single issue with them. 36 POE.


thanks--i don't know why i thought there would be more an an issue.

perhaps i ruled them out because the rear hub is not convertible between qr135 and 12x142. can one convert them?

this complicates my decision. i was settling in on ax lightness rims + tune hubs!


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

HyperRear

Yes, you can convert them.

HyperHubs faq


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

awesome--thanks!

hm. extralite back into contention for me...possibly the leading contender? 

thoughts on an ax-lightness + cx-ray + extralite tubular build for a 29er w/ a 70kg (no gear) rider?


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

tetonrider2 said:


> thanks for taking the time to provide additional comments.
> 
> i'm using a lefty, so the savings on the front hub is minimal (5g at best). there's not much variance between an extralite, tune, cannondale SL.
> 
> ...


 Honestly I'd buy both again, I know that's not helping much but they've both been great & I really don't notice the lower POE on the Tune. The Tune is finished so nice & rolls great. Extralite has the weight advantage & its easy to service the freehub - once the cassette is removed all you need is two 5mm allen wrenchs. You need special tools to get into the Tune freehub, although you can get lube into it by carefully removing the o-ring seal & dripping some Phil Wood Tenacious oil in. 
I researched the Extralite hubs for along time & never found one neg. review or issue, where did you encounter the stories of durabilty on the Extralite's?


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

xc71 said:


> Honestly I'd buy both again, I know that's not helping much but they've both been great & I really don't notice the lower POE on the Tune. The Tune is finished so nice & rolls great. Extralite has the weight advantage & its easy to service the freehub - once the cassette is removed all you need is two 5mm allen wrenchs. You need special tools to get into the Tune freehub, although you can get lube into it by carefully removing the o-ring seal & dripping some Phil Wood Tenacious oil in.
> I researched the Extralite hubs for along time & never found one neg. review or issue, where did you encounter the stories of durabilty on the Extralite's?


thanks! well, i have been told that the extralites require more maintenance than tunes. point noted about not needing other tools for the extradite.

finish is probably the least of concerns i have.

the hyper camber extralite rear is within grams of the tune prince rear, but the hyperrear extralite may be all i need.

the folks at r2 bike advised going with tune. just can't quite decide.

does your extralite require more frequent servicing than the tune? how often are you servicing either one? i'll typically be riding either in dry conditions.


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

Have had my Extralite apart twice to check for dirt/water & it was spotless inside. Cleaned out old grease/oil and applied fresh fork oil & Extralite Alum. grease. Tune has not needed service, but going to add Phil Wood Oil to it soon.


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

xc71 said:


> Have had my Extralite apart twice to check for dirt/water & it was spotless inside. Cleaned out old grease/oil and applied fresh fork oil & Extralite Alum. grease. Tune has not needed service, but going to add Phil Wood Oil to it soon.


good feedback. sounds minimal with either one.

any thoughts on the extralite hypercamber (195g) vs the hyperrear (168g) for a 29er build?


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

also...one other minor question. i've read the extralites tend to be noisy. any comparisons of tune v. extralite noise while freewheeling, esp relative to a king or dt hub?

i used to ride kings but after a brief stint on easton hubs i came to appreciate a quiet ride while out in the woods. the dt 240 (w/ ratchet upgrade) is pretty quiet for me.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

Yep, the Extralite HyperRear is noisy. Some people prefer it that way.

HyperRear
Nabensound Extralite - YouTube

Tune Prince
Nabensound Tune Prince - YouTube


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

sfer1 said:


> Yep, the Extralite HyperRear is noisy. Some people prefer it that way.
> 
> HyperRear
> Nabensound Extralite - YouTube
> ...


awesome--thanks for posting. yeah, lately i prefer a more quiet hub to one that is very loud.

those 2 sound pretty comparable--just the tune has a higher pitch. would be cool if there was a 'reference hub' on there, something that i could compare to that i know about (with their same setup).


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

tetonrider2 said:


> So...I'm making the jump from tubeless to a tubular wheel set after a enough time on tubulars on the road & CX. I'm curious for opinions on my hub selection.
> 
> I've currently got an Enve XC 29 wheelset set up with Racing Ralphs, tubeless. These use a Cannondale SL front hub (Lefty) and a DT240 rear.
> 
> ...


One of the tune hubs seems to ustilize the exact same system as dt BUT it actually looks like some precision machining has been performed. Whereas the dts looks like they cast the internals or maybe fabricated them with a hacksaw or something.


















fairwheelbikes.com • View topic - Road hub review, 28 hubs


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

yeah, that's the dt star ratchet. 

guys, any thoughts on the extralite hypercamber for a 29er? necessary? recommended? it adds weight (35g) if i go that route and basically makes the extralites the same weight as the lightweight tunes.


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## kbike01 (Dec 22, 2012)

I would go with Tune/Enve Combo, Enves are great!


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## kbike01 (Dec 22, 2012)

xc71 said:


> 22 grams lighter for the Extralite rear over a Tune Prince. 29 grams lighter with Extralite front over Tune Princess. Note: my front Extralite was 76 grams, Fairwheel is claiming newest version @ 68 grams.
> I'm 150 lbs. Canadian Rockies = lots of steep up & down, rocky, lots of roots, often wet. I would agree with Tig that Tune POE is not an issue. I hard pretty hard but I'm not doing huge jumps or drops. Both bikes are 26"
> Tune Hubs, Sapim Superspoke, Sapim alum. nipples, Alpine rims = 1196 grams.
> Extralite hubs, Sapim CX-Ray spokes, Pillar alum. nipples, Enve XC rims = 1169 grams.


Sorry to hijack, but That Ibis is amazing! How much does it weigh?


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

kbike01 said:


> I would go with Tune/Enve Combo, Enves are great!


thanks! any experience with the ax lightness rims that are the other contender? i agree that enve rims are great, but i'm wondering if the ax rims are equally great for a rider my weight--as well as being lighter.


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## kbike01 (Dec 22, 2012)

I have the Enve 29er Clinchers and I'm 195 and never had to true them, I went with them because they are based in the US, have a lot of good reviews about them and they stand behind their products.


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

xc71 said:


> I researched the Extralite hubs for along time & never found one neg. review or issue, where did you encounter the stories of durabilty on the Extralite's?


did some more searching. there are several examples of extralite issues popping up.

here is one:
http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/29er-xc-carbon-race-wheels-lightest-yet-709636-2.html


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## skyfire1202 (Jan 21, 2008)

car bone said:


> One of the tune hubs seems to ustilize the exact same system as dt BUT it actually looks like some precision machining has been performed. Whereas the dts looks like they cast the internals or maybe fabricated them with a hacksaw or something.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That Tune road hub system is what can be found on the Dezibel, really a work of art!:thumbsup:


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## FireSpitter (Feb 15, 2012)

tetonrider2 said:


> good feedback. sounds minimal with either one.
> 
> any thoughts on the extralite hypercamber (195g) vs the hyperrear (168g) for a 29er build?


I'm currently using the Hyperrear for my 29er. This was initially built for my WW hardtail but I loved it so much, I'm using it for my Full Sus All Mountain now. Took it apart for cleaning once. Very minor amount of dirt and water. No idea how does it compare to the Hypercamber but I am looking to buy a new hub pretty soon.


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## skyfire1202 (Jan 21, 2008)

tetonrider2 said:


> good feedback. sounds minimal with either one.
> 
> any thoughts on the extralite hypercamber (195g) vs the hyperrear (168g) for a 29er build?


The engagement mechanisms are the same for both, so I think it says it all in the link above... "healthier and stiffer wheel build comapred to the already optimized HyperRear because of the 10% gain in spoke angle on the drive side."
But since you're not that heavy, I am not sure if you would feel the difference in stiffness especially on a rear wheel and with a carbon rim.


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

hi, everyone. i wanted to thank you for the comments in this thread.

i made a decision on my wheelset.

i decided to go with tune cannonball SL and prince hubs. i am confident both extralite and tune would be fine, so it came down to availability and price for me.

i also decided to go with enve rims instead of AX-Lightness. i have heard good things about the AX rims (though mixed comments about warranty support), but in the end i was saving 25g per rim. i KNOW that enve will give good support if there ever is an issue.

further, the enve rims are available in a 28h configuration, which given their stiffness and my weight seems to be a fine option. there is a small weight savings there (~16g/wheel), so that offsets the slightly heavier rim.

i'm hopeful i made the right call, but truthfully i think any permutation of extralite / tune hub and ax / enve rim would likely be just fine.

i plan to use this for a light hardtail build, but i also may run it in a FS on occasion (i'm buying the 12x142 conversion kit, too).


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## skyfire1202 (Jan 21, 2008)

You can't go wrong with the ENVEs.


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

dumb question, but it has been a long time since i've used QR 135 on a MTB.

i have a frame with 135 spacing (cannondale flash). i know there are hubs out there like the dt 240 that can be converted from qr135 to 9mm thru bolt by just changing end caps.

can the tune and extralite hubs be converted? what would i have to do?

(i know the tune needs a separate 12x142 axle kit--for 12mm, obviously--but i am not sure if moving to thru bolt is possible.)

thanks!


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

also--i figure the build will come in at ~1,110g for the wheel set (no rear QR).

ny thoughts on whether a thru-bolt option would be meaningfully stiffer? the enve rims should be stiff, as should the general build. i wonder if the axle (in this hardtail) will be a source of flex.

seems that most FS bikes these days come with thru-bolts of some sort (my last few FS bikes have had 12mm axles, and my current one is 12x142 / x-12), so i've gotten used to that.


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## skyfire1202 (Jan 21, 2008)

You need to buy axle conversion kits for either brand, I think. Should be on their websites. Here's a quick search on R2-bike:

Achsen und Umrüstkits: CYCLE OPS Umrüstkit auf 12 x 142 mm Steckachse


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

skyfire1202 said:


> You need to buy axle conversion kits for either brand, I think. Should be on their websites. Here's a quick search on R2-bike:
> 
> Achsen und Umrüstkits: CYCLE OPS Umrüstkit auf 12 x 142 mm Steckachse


thanks. i know the tune hubs come with QR135 as standard and one can replace with a 12x142 (or 12x135) axle, but my question is really whether i can use standard tune (or extralite) rear QR 135 hub with some type of 10mm thru-bolt or thru-axle.

would i be able to do this with the same hub axle and drop outs?

if i convert to, say, 12x135, the width is correct but does that mean that standard dropouts would no longer work?

thank you!


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## skyfire1202 (Jan 21, 2008)

Sorry, my knowledge on these are just theoretical as I am still using normal QR axles. Somebody here with more knowledge may come up.


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

I would choose dt hubs and enve rims. tune + ax, means lighter setup but more issues. with this in mind it's up to you if you want maximum lightness, or a lot of lightness + durability and no issues.

i would go for the second choice: enve+dt240's.


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## MaLoL1 (Jan 16, 2004)

stay away of extrlite hubs. they are not for everyday use, they are more for show bikes, to get lightest weight and no use.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

MaLoL said:


> stay away of extrlite hubs. they are not for everyday use, they are more for show bikes, to get lightest weight and no use.


I haven't heard of a single with the new Extralite HyperHubs.


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

skyfire1202 said:


> Sorry, my knowledge on these are just theoretical as I am still using normal QR axles. Somebody here with more knowledge may come up.


no worries--i'm pretty sure the only options for tune and extralite hubs are 135mm QR or 12x135/142.


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## tetonrider2 (May 25, 2009)

MaLoL said:


> I would choose dt hubs and enve rims. tune + ax, means lighter setup but more issues. with this in mind it's up to you if you want maximum lightness, or a lot of lightness + durability and no issues.
> 
> i would go for the second choice: enve+dt240's.


thanks for answering. i made a decision already: to go with the enve rims and tune hubs.

i felt the enve rims would be a better bet for me, particularly with my location in the US with respect to proximity to enve. also, i could build them up in a 28h configuration and save most of the weight difference between the enve and ax lightness rims.

i decided to go with tune hubs because i was not able to find anything bad about the new generations of hubs. i agree that DT hubs are bomber. i opted to save ~100g on the wheelset by doing so. it may seem insignificant, but i thought it was a good opportunity to lose weight on a light build i am doing; if the tune hubs were rated poorly, i would not have gone that route.

i'll be able to follow up after a season of riding on them, but i'm afraid i won't know much before then.


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## BikeSwan (Mar 12, 2010)

tetonrider2 said:


> thanks for answering. i made a decision already: to go with the enve rims and tune hubs.
> 
> i felt the enve rims would be a better bet for me, particularly with my location in the US with respect to proximity to enve. also, i could build them up in a 28h configuration and save most of the weight difference between the enve and ax lightness rims.
> 
> ...


Hi,

I'm currently having almost the exact same conundrum as you have had with this thread. Do you have any updates about the ENVE / Tune combo? I'm thinking about buying an uber light race day wheelset (AX Rims w/ Extralite Hubs) and a carbon all mountain wheelset (ENVE AM Rims w/ Tune Hubs) for my Tallboy LTc. What have your experiences been with the tubular rims and the ENVE / Tune combo?

Thanks,

Ed


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

The ENVE DT 240 has been flawless. Beat the shh out of them and still nothing to say. Neglect them even. On the other hand, the Reynolds carbon wheelset with Reynolds branded hubs, the rims went out of true prematurely.


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

> And they're reliable as a Swiss bank.


:eekster:

Yea, not so much.....


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