# The probably all to common bikepacker's dlilema



## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

I am currently working through the probably all too common bikepacker's dilemma. A large gap between what you would like to do and what is currently possible given your current circumstances. 
I am under pressure to just accept the gaps and go on living or I can rise to the challenge even if I piss a few people off along the way. The nay sayer's will bust your ars every time. That has been the story of my life, pissing off the troupes and shoving a cork up the nay sayer's. Six months ago I would not have even considered what is now a challenge. 

I want to do the Plateau Passage trip from Las Vegas Nv to Durango Co. on an e bike next spring. 

What have I got against me:
TMB (To Many Birthdays) 65
Not a lot of experience in bikepacking
Currently not in the best shape possible for me
Wife and daughter are against the idea
Friends will no go (use four letter words to describe the ordeal)
I do not know the regulatory environment well at this point for the trip
Not particularly knowledgeable about the nutrition and daily prep of riding in adverse conditions. 
have needy dogs.
Not much hands on knowledge of high desert environments 

What I have going for me. 
Grew up with minimalist parents 
Schooled in survival notably cold weather
I do not crack under pressure and do not give up. 
Very good at realizing an unfolding unsafe situation before I am out of options. 
I can build a very capable e bike and fix anything that goes wrong enroute
I can work out the logistics of such a trip
I can figure out what I really need for the trip.
I can stay on target and see it through. 
I could ride out very slowly without electrics working with the right design. 

What I have to guard against. 
Getting lost in small details. Gotten better with age
Making to many promises. 
Believing friends. 
Other people whom have expressed interest but likely don't have what it takes to complete the ride, even on an e bike.

Of course the ultimate would be putting together about 4-5 people and ridding it partially supported. 

Well after putting it in writing it seems a bit more like a declaration and at the same time, more insanely exciting and stupid. At least I might get some sleep after typing out this wild idea.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

PierreR said:


> What have I got against me:
> 
> Not a lot of experience in bikepacking
> Currently not in the best shape possible for me
> ...


There's no reason you can't work on these and move them into the other column.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all. Get some knowledge. Do and overnight. E bike? how will you recharge? Get some base miles in. Check out some bikepacking sites. Don't listen to the naysayers. Do some all days rides, loaded and return home. Get an in-reach spot tracker so your SO knows where you are. Do some solo trips first. Only go with foks who have done it before, trust me on this. 57 here. Did an overnight last month, 55 the first day and 9 hrs, bike was 70 lbs. 45 the next day. Just rolling down the driveway.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

leeboh said:


> Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all. Get some knowledge. Do and overnight. E bike? how will you recharge? Get some base miles in. Check out some bikepacking sites. Don't listen to the naysayers. Do some all days rides, loaded and return home. Get an in-reach spot tracker so your SO knows where you are. Do some solo trips first. Only go with foks who have done it before, trust me on this. 57 here. Did an overnight last month, 55 the first day and 9 hrs, bike was 70 lbs. 45 the next day. Just rolling down the driveway.


With an e bike, fitness and range go hand in hand. The more fit you are the more range you have. As you go up in altitude or in climbing the less range you have.

I have been riding a fair amount both loaded and unloaded. Friday I rode my partially loaded bike 96 miles in 6 hours on a rail trail. I had about 40% battery remaining. I now have a couple overnighters on gravel dirt roads. both were in the 60-70 miles per day range. The ride I am contemplating is far more taxing on body and bike. My present bike would not have the range unsupported. My range on that route would be 90-100 miles at 8-16 mph.
I would prefer to set up something supported with other riders rather than build a super long range pack horse of a bike. I have a design on paper for 275 mile range and carrying capacity for lots of water and stores. All things that can be worked out. The trouble with other riders is counting on them to show up. If they don't show up, i need the better bike.
I have not explored all the options of staying in touch on the route such as spot tracker you mention.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Whats the water resupply like? Cache water?


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

leeboh said:


> Whats the water resupply like? Cache water?


Water resupply is better than food or electricity. Electricity is probably at least 100 miles, water is probably 60+. Things in Hite appear to have opened up again once the lake levels returned to reasonable levels. 
I might even modify the route to go to Fruita from Moab instead of Durango. 
https://www.bikepackingroots.org/plateau-passage.html


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

From the Bikepacking.com article:
Difficulty: This is an adventure route in the truest sense of the words. With limited resupply options, limited water, and some very remote country, this is a challenging route. Don’t take any of these facts lightly. In order to tackle this route, you should be an experienced bikepacker with trip-planning and riding experience in the desert Southwest. This is rugged terrain with frequent climbs, some of which may be steep and unrelenting at times. There are technical sections that include narrow trail with regular obstacles, sustained steep grades; suitable for intermediate to advanced mountain bikers only.

Why this route? Why not other routes that are less challenging? It is considered a difficult route by those who ride them. You admit to having little relevant experience and being out of shape. The ride hits some serious altitude that will impact your performance.
There's a fine line between 'not giving up' and 'stubbornness'. One will get you out of tough situations, the other will drag you into them.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

The lack of charging seems like it will be your biggest issue. Riding a heavy e-Bike with a dead battery is going to test your fitness, something you said is lacking at the moment.

For an idea on what that can be like check out the currently streaming show "long way up" where Ewan McGregor and Charlie Boorman ride Electric Motorcycles from Tiera Del Fuego to LA on the Pan-America highway.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

TooTallUK said:


> From the Bikepacking.com article:
> Difficulty: This is an adventure route in the truest sense of the words. With limited resupply options, limited water, and some very remote country, this is a challenging route. Don't take any of these facts lightly. In order to tackle this route, you should be an experienced bikepacker with trip-planning and riding experience in the desert Southwest. This is rugged terrain with frequent climbs, some of which may be steep and unrelenting at times. There are technical sections that include narrow trail with regular obstacles, sustained steep grades; suitable for intermediate to advanced mountain bikers only.
> 
> Why this route? Why not other routes that are less challenging? It is considered a difficult route by those who ride them. You admit to having little relevant experience and being out of shape. The ride hits some serious altitude that will impact your performance.
> There's a fine line between 'not giving up' and 'stubbornness'. One will get you out of tough situations, the other will drag you into them.


My negatives I listed above were in relation to that description. I am not all that out of shape or inexperienced overall. I have a damned good idea of what to expect. 
I am also not married to that exact route. I do think I would re-route around some of the technical sections as the risks would be higher than the rewards. It's possible at this point that re-routes are not really practical. I am not that far into my research yet. My present bike is very stable with an 1,100 watt hr battery. I would be riding a more stable bike with a 2,800 watt hr battery. Where my prep would not lack is the bike and ability to repair anything that can go wrong with it enroute.

That said, the reason I chose this route is it's remoteness and beauty. I have flown over it at low altitude with a plane so I am in no delusion as to what is there and what the terrain is like. There are places along that route where there is practically no vegetation at all. The terrain is like a rat maze of impenetrable shear wall canyons Evacuation insurance is not a bad idea. I don't look at that terrain lightly.

At this point that trip is the goal. That goal might have logistics that are very difficult to work around. I will be looking for those things first and part of the reason I chose to post here. If those things exist there might be someone here that brings them up right away. There are other routes and I might yet decide that this route is too much at my age. My biggest fear is talking someone else into the trip that cannot complete it. I am one hell of a salesman on stuff like this. I am well known as an exciting person to travel with.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Carry a large folding solar panel.
Charge ebike battery all day.
Ride at night.
Done.
=sParty


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

Sparticus said:


> Carry a large folding solar panel.
> Charge ebike battery all day.
> Ride at night.
> Done.
> =sParty


You know how big and heavy a solar panel that would take, right?


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

TooTallUK said:


> You know how big and heavy a solar panel that would take, right?


I was being fishy sauce.

Humor doesn't translate well across the intertoobs.
=sParty


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

You need a shakedown cruise. Put together a two night route somewhere not out in the boonies, where if it all goes wrong you can be back at home in a couple of hours. Find out what works, what sucks and adjust accordingly.


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## temporoad (Jul 27, 2006)

Harryman said:


> You need a shakedown cruise. Put together a two night route somewhere not out in the boonies, where if it all goes wrong you can be back at home in a couple of hours. Find out what works, what sucks and adjust accordingly.


Best advise, one should always do a shakedown trip or two before the big one, to test all your gear.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

I have done a couple of runs and parts of my equipment and tactics just would not cut it.

One suggestion that I saw in one of the bikepacking things that I read was. "If you took it and did not use it for two days, you did not need it". That would seem to apply to all ancillaries other than tools and spare parts. It can also apply to some clothing depending on the weather encountered. 
Well I kinda kept track of that on this last trip this last week. I came back with a lot of food that I did not touch. Points to planning meals as a way to reduce clutter. I did not use as many cloths as I took with me. I can improve on that measure. My stuff was disorganized and took unpacking to get to things I needed enroute vs at camp.

At camp. My tent is larger than what I alone would need, dated a bit and heavy by todays standards. The tent was top of the line $300 plus sewing in 1977. My current sleeping bag is a Walmart special. I have no idea how I acquired it but it only works down to about 45F. One new piece of equipment is a Sea to Summit inflatable matt that is fantastic. I took a Gerry temperpedic pillow with me. It takes up a lot of room. I do need to invest in some decent clothing. The Geriatric Walmart closeout clothing just doesn't cut it and let me down in all but armchair weather. I have very little wet weather gear. 
That brings up another point. I have avoided all rain drops on my ventures. An intentional venture into precip might spur some serious thought on the clothing side. I know there are some priority gaps there. I gasp at more than $20 on a pair of shorts and just spent $312 on a bike saddle.
My wife thinks my priorities are entirely askew. She might be right, I married her 43 years ago. :crazy:

What worked: My cooking and eating stuff seemed to work pretty well. The type of food I took seemed to work very well. The little things I took seemed to work very well. Like bug netting, bug wipes, suntan lotions, toiletries, first aid kit and zip ties. My 5/10 shoes worked great. The repair kit was expedition worthy. The bike performed flawlessly, better than I would have guessed, bike is not rain tested.

These are not serious issues, they are issues looking for exciting solutions. They put some zest in life.:thumbsup:


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Invest where it counts. My big agnes tent only weighs 2.5 lbs. Get a good rain coat and helmet cover. You do not want to be cold at night. Temps? Get a 30 F down sleeping bag. Got some wool base layers, wool sweater and a down puffy? Buy once cry once. Some of this is pricey, but will last. Check out some of the REI sales, you a member? I've been cold, I've been wet, best to avoid the two together.


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

A great spot to pick up some good deals on used ultralight backpacking gear is https://backpackinglight.com/forums/forum/commerce/gear-swap/
The really high end stuff will only be a slight discount, but the middle of the pack gear (still much better than a 1970s sleeping bag) will go for great prices.

Really really really I cannot stress just how far technical gear has come in the last 20 years. My sleeping bag, pad, and tent for both my wife and me, pack down to the same size as my old 1 person sleeping bag.


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

You sound a long way away from being able to safely undertake such a trip. 
how heavy was your kit for your last ride, how many nights, how far did you go?


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

TooTallUK said:


> You sound a long way away from being able to safely undertake such a trip.


Yall are a bunch of negative nancys, and clearly don't know the difference between "safely" undertaking, and "successfully" undertaking. This guy is not gonna get himself killed out there. He might not make as fast of progress as he was planning, but he isn't gonna die.

Does he have a lot of work ahead of him to get ready? YES!
Is it going to be challenging? YES!
Is the reality of the trip going to end up being different than the initial plan? ALWAYS!

So lets start discussing how to make this work

Some dude on here a few weeks ago went on a bikepacking trip with an E fat bike, a kiddie trailer full of god knows what, and had a friggin blast.

Not to mention, it sounds like he is looking to make it some form of partially supported. With a support vehicle, you can get yourself out of just about any sticky situation.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

leeboh said:


> Invest where it counts. My big agnes tent only weighs 2.5 lbs. Get a good rain coat and helmet cover. You do not want to be cold at night. Temps? Get a 30 F down sleeping bag. Got some wool base layers, wool sweater and a down puffy? Buy once cry once. Some of this is pricey, but will last. Check out some of the REI sales, you a member? I've been cold, I've been wet, best to avoid the two together.


I have bought high end for cold weather. I have so-so biking gear for the summer and poor gear for the shoulder seasons. 
I will check out REI. I also probably have access to some gear through PSIA. 
I will probably try some winter bikepacking. My bike is set up as a snow bike in winter.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

lentamentalisk said:


> So lets start discussing how to make this work
> 
> Some dude on here a few weeks ago went on a bikepacking trip with an E fat bike, a kiddie trailer full of god knows what, and had a friggin blast.
> 
> Not to mention, it sounds like he is looking to make it some form of partially supported. With a support vehicle, you can get yourself out of just about any sticky situation.


That dude was probably me. I took another trip last week and did a bit better. No trailer, Just an overnighter. 
Part of my problem is that I don't have young friends that want to do anything like I am doing right now. My friends all bike on nice days above 60F with a max distance of about 30 mi.

There is no question that I am a long way from doing this trip at this time. I have a good 7-8 months to prepare at minimum. Two weeks ago my mind wouldn't even consider this trip.

I probably have the ability to do this trip on a regular bike but I have the skills and knowledge to do it safely on an e bike so why not. I would enjoy the trip much better and see more on an e bike.

Right now I am in better shape than I have been in a long time because of the e bike. I have been riding it without power a lot lately. I can pedal it at 12-15 mph continuous without power on the level but pretty slow on climbing or into the wind. Was thinking of temporarily taking the electrics off the bike and putting the regular crank back on it for the rest of fall. I have about 10k miles on the bike now and am tempted to do a tear down/rebuild on anything showing wear and then re-install the electrics once again. My fat bike was only about 30 lbs before I put the electrics on it. While I am at it I can take the fat tire wheels set and swap the Jumbo jims off and put the Wazia full studs on for winter. Right now I am running the 29 er wheel set.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

I'm not against eBikes but charging is going to be a problem. I have problems charging a 3500 mWH cache battery that I use for my phone and as backup power for my GPS (using a dynamo hub). Solar is nice but it will only give you enough power for low-demand devices like your phone. An electric motor is way, way too hungry unless you sit in one spot for a couple of days charging every time you run low. 

Although you're 65, have you considered training to ride a regular bike? Presumably you're going to have to get in good enough shape to pedal a heavy bike with a dead battery and you might consider eliminating the middleman.

Also, it is not difficult for almost any non-athlete in reasonable shape to pedal forty or fifty miles a day, even up and down hills and mountains. You just start pedaling, take some breaks, and at the end of the day the miles will have added up. Camp, rest, sleep, repeat. If you budget enough time this is doable with minimum training. You can also carry enough gear to be comfortable as speed is not your priority. 

I read an article written by a guy who did the Transamerica route. He said that the funny thing was how easy it was to get on the bike and cover 75 to 100 miles a day at a leisurely, non-racing pace. I can attest to this. While I concentrate on training for grueling Tour Divide style riding, sometimes I just get on my bike and kind of "stroll" and am surprised to have done 30 miles without even thinking about it. And I mean I stroll. I granny gear it up the hills and just kind of turn the pedals.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Ailuropoda said:


> I'm not against eBikes but charging is going to be a problem. I have problems charging a 3500 mWH cache battery that I use for my phone and as backup power for my GPS (using a dynamo hub). Solar is nice but it will only give you enough power for low-demand devices like your phone. An electric motor is way, way too hungry unless you sit in one spot for a couple of days charging every time you run low.


 I am assuming you mean a 3,500mAH which is a big battery for a phone charger and bigger yet for a dyano. You are correct, solar is worthless. You need to plug into the grid for charging an e bike. I would need to do that every 250 to 300 miles. I use around 10-12 WH per mile on terrain like that. I can charge back up in 4 hours.



> Although you're 65, have you considered training to ride a regular bike? Presumably you're going to have to get in good enough shape to pedal a heavy bike with a dead battery and you might consider eliminating the middleman.


I can ride a regular bike, that is not the point. With a dead battery you would cache as much as you could, including the dead battery and ride out with minimal supplies. That terrain is not a place to be foolish enough to try to continue full load.



> Also, it is not difficult for almost any non-athlete in reasonable shape to pedal forty or fifty miles a day, even up and down hills and mountains. You just start pedaling, take some breaks, and at the end of the day the miles will have added up. Camp, rest, sleep, repeat. If you budget enough time this is doable with minimum training. You can also carry enough gear to be comfortable as speed is not your priority.


I am aware that this is all true. Would rather have 80-100 miles per day and maybe a few side trips along the way. Right now I have two friends that say they are interested but only van supported. I have other friends who say they are interested in doing a long trip if I would plan one around bed & breakfast and credit card dining along bike paths. I would be interested in doing that but I can't wait too long. They are already 82 and stage four cancer survivors. They can do 40-50 miles on e bikes. Since I built their e bikes, they know that I can maintain them on any trip.


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

I've successfully managed complex risks across some 17 different countries across several disciplines. He is a long way off being ready for this, and asking the weight of his kit was on the way to offering further advice as to how to get closer to being ready.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

TooTallUK said:


> I've successfully managed complex risks across some 17 different countries across several disciplines. He is a long way off being ready for this, and asking the weight of his kit was on the way to offering further advice as to how to get closer to being ready.


Appreciate your candor. Right now my gear has weighed around 50-60 lb plus the bike. 
Right now I see the strongest part of my plan as being the bike and my ability to repair it enroute. Probably the weakest part of my plan right now is nutrition and hydration management and recognizing a problem. Second would be electronic navigation, Third would be organizing an managing the pack. Fourth would be clothing and exposure and last would be camping gear.

Starting and participating in this thread has already yielded benefits. and pointed to areas where I have kind of had my head in the sand. One has been having the wrong attitude so far on climate and exposure. Up until now I have avoided inclement weather and instead been picking nice weather windows. A very typical retired Gerry move that won't cut it once I am out there. There will be plenty of inclement weather between now and next spring. Everything I have right now would suck in crapy weather. 
Must change attitude. I moved down south to the banana belt of northern Ohio to get away from the year round inclement weather around Lake Superior. Still got lots of family in the Copper country I could go visit. Good four seasons climate. Fall, winter, mud and bug seasons. Damn, Just thinking about it; I am going to go make myself some hot chocolate. Damn, I don't have any Schnapps for the hot chocolate to get me in the right frame of mind.


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## ericzamora (Dec 14, 2017)

Sounds like a great trip. Why don't you do a few shorter routes first to iron out the details of the gear, build more experience, instill faith in yourself for bikepacking in remote areas, and maybe most importantly, those that you love who would be worrying about you the entire time. If you can't get off your ass and build this experience and confidence up before the spring, perhaps plan this big trip for the fall. Meant in the most respective way.

It does sound like a great trip. 

eric/fresno, ca.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

ericzamora said:


> Sounds like a great trip. Why don't you do a few shorter routes first to iron out the details of the gear, build more experience, instill faith in yourself for bikepacking in remote areas, and maybe most importantly, those that you love who would be worrying about you the entire time. If you can't get off your ass and build this experience and confidence up before the spring, perhaps plan this big trip for the fall. Meant in the most respective way.
> 
> It does sound like a great trip.
> 
> eric/fresno, ca.


My plan now is to field test me and the kit in not so nice of conditions prior to undertaking this type of trip. I will start out locally where I can bail if my kit is intolerable. On a trip like I have proposed its very tough to bail or just use a credit card. Its very remote country to can kill you quickly.

Why do we seem to return to our roots as we get older? When I was young we didn't go very far from home without carrying survival gear. Even after all the years I have lived in civilization I still do things that other people do not. If my bike trips is over 10 miles from home I carry my repair kit and that kit is 9 lb light and 11 lbs heavy.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Spur of the moment. I will try an overnighter tomorrow night. I will try a bit of planning and see how easy it goes. 110 miles or so. :yesnod:


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

PierreR said:


> Appreciate your candor. Right now my gear has weighed around 50-60 lb plus the bike.
> Right now I see the strongest part of my plan as being the bike and my ability to repair it enroute. Probably the weakest part of my plan right now is nutrition and hydration management and recognizing a problem. Second would be electronic navigation, Third would be organizing an managing the pack. Fourth would be clothing and exposure and last would be camping gear.
> 
> Starting and participating in this thread has already yielded benefits. and pointed to areas where I have kind of had my head in the sand. One has been having the wrong attitude so far on climate and exposure. Up until now I have avoided inclement weather and instead been picking nice weather windows. A very typical retired Gerry move that won't cut it once I am out there. There will be plenty of inclement weather between now and next spring. Everything I have right now would suck in crapy weather.
> Must change attitude. I moved down south to the banana belt of northern Ohio to get away from the year round inclement weather around Lake Superior. Still got lots of family in the Copper country I could go visit. Good four seasons climate. Fall, winter, mud and bug seasons. Damn, Just thinking about it; I am going to go make myself some hot chocolate. Damn, I don't have any Schnapps for the hot chocolate to get me in the right frame of mind.


I try to aim for 20-30 lbs of gear plus food and water. Don't forget about paper maps. Delorme makes topos for every state. Very handy. Pics and current gear list? For me for a week? Stove, food, fuel, whisky. Plus repair kit. 2 sets on bike clothes. I set off bike clothes. A warm layer and a layer for wet. Some overlap of course. Spent a whole day in tropical downpours in VT. Pickups were throwing waves of water. Some bottom of pedal strokes were under water. Saving grace? A dry bag with a full set of warm clothes, head to toe for the days end. Highly recommend wool base layers.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Report on latest Spur of the Moment foray into Bikepacking. 

Route total was 112 miles total. Route was paved/crush limestone and AA ballast/dirt. Paved portion about a third has short but substantial grades continuously. Headwinds in both directions. Partly sunny with lows around 45-50 and highs in upper 60's.
I organized things better and planned better on what to take. I also weighed everything.

Me 201lb
Bike with day tools and normal day stuff. 71.2 lb
Trailer 19.7 lb
Repair kit 8.9 lb
Gear including tent, SB, pillow, 2 tarps, first aid cloths. shoes, coats, warm cloths and riding cloths, toiletries etc. 25.5 lb
Food/water for two days/ beverages/cider and cooking kit 12.5 lbs

Basically, me and the bike 272 lb
trailer and gear 67 lb

Total 339 lb

My average speed was about 13 mph. I pretty much used everything that I took. I thought it went pretty good. I had a leak in the rear tire. I put two ounces of Orange Seal in and that fixed it. The air pump I had with me I won't count on. Hard to get the tires pumped up enough. 

What I did not like: Power usage was excessively high for what I expected. With just me and the bike (272 lb) I would have expected around 8-9 watt hours per mile. My usage was 14.8 average and about the same both directions. That's adding on 67 lbs or 20% for an increase in power usage of 68% higher. That to me is not gonna fly. The windage was much greater but so was the rolling resistance. There was a substantial difference between pavement and anything else. the trailer weight alone is a third of that 67 lb. 
Need to look and decreasing frontal windage and other options besides trailer. or a different trailer design all together. 

I'm a little creeky in and out of a tent and I go too often at night. I hurt a bit too. Need to work on that. 

I did ride one day last week in the rain. I got wet here and there but, my bike stayed clean with electrics dry. It was not as bad as I was expecting.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Better break down of repair kit and gear? My repair kit is maybe 2 lbs, max. 2 tarps?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

A few thoughts: 

How will you handle the hike-a-bike sections? 

Can you lift your loaded bike over a 3'-4' obstacle?

I would shoot for <25 lbs. of gear and food.

You could cut 100 lbs. off your proposed setup with a rigid bike and light bikepacking gear, which would make for a much easier/simpler/faster and more enjoyable trip, while exerting less total personal energy to do it. 

A support vehicle can add another layer of complexity.

You will get a lot stronger as you go, and eat less.

Not being negative, just some things to plan for or around.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

leeboh said:


> Better break down of repair kit and gear? My repair kit is maybe 2 lbs, max. 2 tarps?


tarps are 5'x7' and really light. One for under the tent and one for covering the bike.

ahh yes the repair kit. I am not without ability so the kit is more extensive than most. 
Tool kit:
Crank Bros multi tool/Old Schwinn multi wrench/Wire cutters/snap ring plyers/Small adjustable wrench	/Small vise grips/Crank arm removal tool/Cable cutter/Chain plyers/Knife/Dental picks/Small needle nose plyers/multi tool
Tire/wheel:
Tire levers / 2 spare spokes/ three spoke nipples/ two size tire plugs/ 4 oz Orange seal/ spare tube/ tire patches/ presta adapter/ hand tire air pump/ gorilla tape.
Shocks/brake:
2 oz shock oil+ 1 oz brake fluid/ SRAM bleeder kit/ Shock pump/ Brake pads/ blue locktite/ small split section of 1 ¼" PVC pipe.
Drivetrain:
Spare chain links/ four master links/ Cassette removal tool/ set of hub prawls/ hub grease/ 2 derailleur hangers/ shift cable with crimp ends/ 1 oz chain lube
Bafang:
Clutch/ pinion gear/ pinion gear shaft/ speed sensor/ hall sensor/controller
Battery:
Solder/ wire connectors/silicon wire/multi tester/small weld leads/nickel strip/Goop/niobium magnets/shrink tubing/ solderless connectors/wire crimp/striper tool/switch
Extra:
Pack of assorted nuts and bolts/safety wire/gasket maker/two part super glue/zip ties/nylon string/alcohol wipes/

Probably a bit more in there but I can't think of it right now.


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## ericzamora (Dec 14, 2017)

Do you really need a trailer? Show us a photo of the bike and trailer from the trip, as packed.

I think you're carrying way too much. For instance, what kind of tarps do you use? The blue ones you can buy from Harbor Freight? Why 2 when you have a tent? Can't an e-bike handle exposure to the elements overnight? And which tent? Which sleeping bag? what kind of food are you carrying? I'm not familiar with maintenance of e-bikes, so cannot comment on the repair kit for that, but from the questions raised on other stuff, i imagine you could really slim down the weight all around.

Are you familiar with lightweight (ultra) BACKpacking gear? Do you use any of it? You mention clothes. Is this cotton clothing?

There's a web site that offers you a way to list everything with its weight. It's designed for backpacking, but should be adaptable for bikepacking. try using:
https://lighterpack.com

I have yet to use it for bikepacking trip, but as an example, here's what i carry for a 2-3 night backpacking trip: https://lighterpack.com/r/acl13f

-eric


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

PierreR said:


> tarps are 5'x7' and really light. One for under the tent and one for covering the bike.
> 
> ahh yes the repair kit. I am not without ability so the kit is more extensive than most.
> Tool kit:
> ...


Holy cow. That's a lot of stuff. Gasket maker? I try to keep my repair kit not counting tubes and tire sealant to less than a pound. Admittedly I don't have an eBike or shocks but will you really, for example, need shock oil and plan to service your shock in the field? Same with bleeding brakes. I don't know of any bikepacking endurance racers who carry a fraction of that.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

ericzamora said:


> Do you really need a trailer? Show us a photo of the bike and trailer from the trip, as packed.
> 
> I think you're carrying way too much. For instance, what kind of tarps do you use? The blue ones you can buy from Harbor Freight? Why 2 when you have a tent? Can't an e-bike handle exposure to the elements overnight? And which tent? Which sleeping bag? what kind of food are you carrying? I'm not familiar with maintenance of e-bikes, so cannot comment on the repair kit for that, but from the questions raised on other stuff, i imagine you could really slim down the weight all around.
> 
> ...


 Thank you for the tip on the web site.

I realized from reading your response there is one thing I do that I did not disclose. Being safe on a trip like I am proposing requires emotional knowledge, not just book knowledge. The emotional knowledge is experience. There are ways to accelerate that experiential learning and I use them. 
One of the chief ways I do that is to intentionally pick an easy trip that is easy to bail from and intentionally do things that are not recommended or exaggerated. The idea is that under more controlled conditions you experience things with exaggerated feedback. 
This time, I sorted like task items into separate bags but then threw everything into a large leaf bag and tossed it into a cheap two wheel trailer and put essentially nothing on the bike except what I normally carry. I intentionally did not compress things down much and carried a full size temperpedic pillow. Was I carrying way to much and the wrong stuff? Hell yes. 
Tarps, you mean the free ones with the coupon out of the paper don't you? Nah, they are too stiff. I had two ripstop nylon 5'X7' tarps that weigh very little. I'm already smart enough to know the result of the HF tarps.

Feed back was high and I did not like the big climb in wind resistance or the towability of that trailer. Wind resistance was really limiting on speed and the trailer did not work well off pavement. Handling was also degraded too much. The result was knowing what I don't want before I spend much money.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Ailuropoda said:


> Holy cow. That's a lot of stuff. Gasket maker? I try to keep my repair kit not counting tubes and tire sealant to less than a pound. Admittedly I don't have an eBike or shocks but will you really, for example, need shock oil and plan to service your shock in the field? Same with bleeding brakes. I don't know of any bikepacking endurance racers who carry a fraction of that.


I was raised to be totally self sufficient in all endeavors. I have never hired anything done except medical/legal. 
The answer to your question is yes. I am prepared, able and willing to do any repairs to a bike in the field. I cannot imagine being any other way. Especially on a trip like I am contemplating.
The most complicated thing I can foresee doing is tearing into a battery pack to isolate bad cells or diagnosing electronic issues. Both things are still within my ability. Yeah the weight is more but I would rather cut weight some other way that sit some place remote with the knowledge but without the means to fix something gone wrong with anything I am lugging. 
By the same token, I am prepared to fix anyone else's bike that rides with me. E bike or regular.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

PierreR said:


> I was raised to be totally self sufficient in all endeavors. I have never hired anything done except medical/legal.
> The answer to your question is yes. I am prepared, able and willing to do any repairs to a bike in the field. I cannot imagine being any other way. Especially on a trip like I am contemplating.
> The most complicated thing I can foresee doing is tearing into a battery pack to isolate bad cells or diagnosing electronic issues. Both things are still within my ability. Yeah the weight is more but I would rather cut weight some other way that sit some place remote with the knowledge but without the means to fix something gone wrong with anything I am lugging.
> By the same token, I am prepared to fix anyone else's bike that rides with me. E bike or regular.


Most of my toolkit for the 2700-mile Tour Divide. I have a belt drive and Pinion C1.12 so I don't need chain parts or tools. I carry some zip ties, a spare belt, and a couple of spare spokes in my handlebars but this is basically it. And I'm always looking to cut more weight where possible. I got a new multi-tool because my old one had a chain breaker which I don't need with this bike.

Maybe I should bring more stuff but you can't "pack your fears." The tools and parts I bring are enough to patch up the bike and get to the next town if necessary. I don't, for example, carry a chain whip or a cassette tool because the weight is prohibitive, you can run a while with broken spoke if you re-tension the wheel, and I carry a really light Fiberfix Kevlar spoke which works really well in an emergency and can be installed on the drive-side without taking off the cassette. My rear wheel has straight-pull spokes so even that's not an issue.

Also, the majority of bikepacking mechanical problems involve the chain, derailleur, and tires. I don't have a derailleur or chain and am counting on the reliability of the Pinion system so I'm just not worrying about it. I carry surgical sutures, patches, and everything else needed to fix a tubeless tire but also two Tubolito tubes in case nothing works.









Solace Cycles OM-2P


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Old tool-kit for my bike with a chain and derailleur.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Well you have me to thinking at least. My bike has been extremely reliable for more than 10k miles. If I remanufactured it prior to leaving I could forgo much of the stuff. 
I guess maybe I am a little overboard on that one. Part of my background is being an aircraft mechanic on Air Force One. Although that was 40 years ago, the mindset has stuck. I am not very hard on equipment, including my bike.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

PierreR said:


> Well you have me to thinking at least. My bike has been extremely reliable for more than 10k miles. If I remanufactured it prior to leaving I could forgo much of the stuff.
> I guess maybe I am a little overboard on that one. Part of my background is being an aircraft mechanic on Air Force One. Although that was 40 years ago, the mindset has stuck. I am not very hard on equipment, including my bike.


That makes sense. I always perform necessary maintenance before a big race. Brake pads, tires, chain, tire sealant, bottom bracket etc.

I replace what needs to be replaced. But I just don't see bleeding brakes or changing the seal on a fork in the field. I've actually never had a hydraulic brake fail catastrophically...they usually give plenty of warning when they're due for maintenance.

I just don't worry about parts like headsets or bottom brackets. I use Chris King or Hope and never had a problem. I can feel every pound of weight going up mountain passes so I like to keep the load as light as possible. My tent, sleeping bag, and mat weigh just five pounds combined. They're not luxurious but they do the job. Some of the top endurance racers go with a bivvy bag instead of a tent to save time and weight but I need a little more creature comfort.


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## oren_hershco (Mar 11, 2006)

PierreR said:


> Well you have me to thinking at least. My bike has been extremely reliable for more than 10k miles. If I remanufactured it prior to leaving I could forgo much of the stuff.
> I guess maybe I am a little overboard on that one. Part of my background is being an aircraft mechanic on Air Force One. Although that was 40 years ago, the mindset has stuck. I am not very hard on equipment, including my bike.


Hi PierreR:

*1.* I'm younger than you (47), have been riding MTBs for 30 years, and even I can't find partners for long bikepacking tours. That friend is not in shape, the other doesn't like riding a loaded bike, the third cannot afford the costs, and so on.

That's the norm. Most people, even most cyclists, don't go on these adventures.

So accept it, and don't let it stop you.

A remark about this: it's somewhat culture-related. When I rode part of the Carretera Austral in Chile, '09, and later on the lake district of Argentina, we met bicycle tourers every day. Roughly 90% of them where French. The other 10% where from Denmark, the Netherlands - you get it.

It seems the French LOVE this type of adventures. Even when we met a group of ~15 French tourers together, they didn't share any equipment in order to save weight. Which means they always kept the option of being completely independant.

*2.* I understand your atittude about being able to fix all sort of failures. Nobody likes to see his/her dream being halted on the first day of a big trip, due to an annoying failure. However, you need to estimate the CHANCES of failure, for every component.

A deraileur hanger can get bent. That's common, and the replacement part is small. But what about your rims? fork? frame? handlebar? Those can sometimes brake as well.

If you try to be ready for almost every possible failure, you have a 100% probability of being misreble on your trip. The bike will be way too heavy, and instead of riding you will be hauling.

Participant in this forum have a lot of experience about reliability of component. I would gather tips, mix them with my own knowledge, and finalize a compact list of tools and spares which will probably be sufficient for 95% of the failure scenarios.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

oren_hershco said:


> Hi PierreR:
> 
> *1.* I'm younger than you (47), have been riding MTBs for 30 years, and even I can't find partners for long bikepacking tours. That friend is not in shape, the other doesn't like riding a loaded bike, the third cannot afford the costs, and so on.
> 
> ...


True. I carry a spare seat post clamp because I've had one fail on me, it's pretty light (Wolftooth Components), doesn't take up any room, and I was miserable until I could find a new one. I carry (carried) quick links because I've had chain problems. I also carry (carried) a small bottle of chain lube because this is necessary every couple of days even in dry weather.

Same with the tent, sleeping bag, and mat. Yeah, it's five pounds of weight but the alternative, dying of hypothermia, is not very appealing. Plus, by experience, I ride better and less....fearfully...if I know I have a dry shelter and a warm sleeping bag to get into no matter how bad the weather. Some people only need a bivvy bag and save the weight of a tent and poles but the extra two pounds or so is worth it to me.

I've found things like a cigarette lighter and a small knife are really useful compared to, say, a chain whip. And I've gone on long rides with no mechanical failures of any kind. No flats, either, and the only thing I've used from my tool kit is the chain lube and a titanium spork (which does nothing a plastic spork couldn't do but it is pretty cool).


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

It certainly would be easier to ride without a trailer. It would be far cheaper to keep my present bike and do the mods that would make it better for bike packing. 
I am starting to believe it is probably advantageous enough, even with an e bike, to pare things down a lot.


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