# What is the general access of eMTB with motor off or battery removed?



## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

Is there any general answer to whether an eMTB with the motor off can have access to non-motorized trails?

In Wisconsin state lands:
"E-bikes can go anywhere a bike is allowed if the motor is not
turned on. Contact the bureau for the most up to date information"

What is the status in other states?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I wish you good luck.


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

That's an interesting question. Based on my experience with our shop's demo bike, a Trek Rail 7, I wouldn't care to pedal that thing without pedal assist. Not impossible of course, but it's a big, heavy bike for pedal-only.

Now, as far as riding one of these emtbs on a pedal-only trail, if the battery was completely removed from the bike, I think "authorities" would have a hard time proving you're actually riding an emtb. At that point it's a bicycle under any description I'm aware of. Be aware you might find a Barney Fife park ranger or such who could still cause you grief...you know...win in court but having to endure the hassle. And if you have the battery stuffed in a backpack even though not in use at the moment, you're probably treading on thin ice on a non-emtb trail.

That said, I don't think emtbs make pleasant pedal-only bikes for the most part.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

I am thinking of the new generation of ultralight eMTB that don't weight much more than a standard MTB like the Orbea rise. So pedaling it is very possible. The problem with the battery removed issue is typical legalese. If it "has a motor" does not say whether it is on or off just that it "has one". Yes a "reasonable man" might agree that it is ok but a "lawyer" might give you a ticket.
The Wisconsin rules clearly state that on state land it is ok. 
It is clearly and issue getting an ebike if there is anywhere you can legally ride it. I am not interested in any arguements about whether there is enforcement just whether it is clearly legal.
It would be nice to have one bike you could ride on any trail by turning off/removing the battery.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

Removing the battery requires dropping the motor on the Rise, unless the aluminum version is different, maybe you can just turn the bike off i have no idea but my guess is no enforcement anyway so moot point


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

probably the same as me coasting my KTM 300 on some downhill Forest Service trails. pinky swear promises don't amount to much to rangers

Edit: you are not going to win in court or whatever else you imagine. if the vehicle is prohibited, that's it. not just how you are using it. come on! More: "at the time you caught me I was outta gas!" or "I didn't have my outboard engine in the river when you ticketed me". None of that flies.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Officer, it was off. I totally promise. I wasn't using it and that motor noise people were hearing was something else.

edit: seems Carl and I are reading each other's minds. 😂


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Hmm, well I have wondered, if I'm pushing my bike on a hike only trail, is that ok? Most rangers would probably think not. Maybe if something major broke making it unrideable and the trail was a shortcut out?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

chazpat said:


> Hmm, well I have wondered, if I'm pushing my bike on a hike only trail, is that ok? Most rangers would probably think not. Maybe if something major broke making it unrideable and the trail was a shortcut out?


In your case, as with OP's, it depends.

There are a LOT of trails in the Pisgah area that are hike-only within the Blue Ridge Parkway land. but cross the boundary, and bikes are allowed. People push bikes on there all the time to connect to the bike-legal trail. Now, if you're pushing on a hiking-only trail that does NOT connect to bike-legal trail, I bet the ranger would start having a problem.

I'm not aware that there are any general rules regarding OP's issue. As with everything, it's going to vary depending on the management agency in charge. Some won't care. Others will. YMMV.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

If you just hike a bike through the trails you should be just fine.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Much like the policy in Wilderness areas, where the mere possession of a wheel (even if it's not touching the ground) will garner you a ticket, the possession of an ebike would probably be in violation of a "no-ebikes" policy. Motor on or off, battery installed or not.

Does it make any sense at all? No, but that's not how government works.

Personally, I've never seen any attempt at enforcement.

.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

_CJ said:


> Much like the policy in Wilderness areas, where the mere possession of a wheel (even if it's not touching the ground) will garner you a ticket, the possession of an ebike would probably be in violation of a "no-ebikes" policy. Motor on or off, battery installed or not.
> 
> Does it make any sense at all? No, but that's not how government works.
> 
> ...


Except for the Grand Canyon, where you can carry your bike on the AZT.

Betting on non-enforcement is a good way to be disappointed.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I think I got spell checked by the mods


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

dysfunction said:


> Except for the Grand Canyon, where you can carry your bike on the AZT.
> 
> Betting on non-enforcement is a good way to be disappointed.


#notawildernessarea

.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

dysfunction said:


> Except for the Grand Canyon, where you can carry your bike on the AZT.
> Betting on non-enforcement is a good way to be disappointed.


In fact on the AZT the GCNP requires them to carry their bike across the canyon rather than rolling them. 
So again the question is are their other states like mine that clearly approve riding an ebike with the motor off on non-motorized trails. I would guess from the responses that the answer is doesn't look like it.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

mike_kelly said:


> In fact on the AZT the GCNP requires them to carry their bike across the canyon rather than rolling them.
> So again the question is are their other states like mine that clearly approve riding an ebike with the motor off on non-motorized trails. I would guess from the responses that the answer is doesn't look like it.


Problem with your question is implying that it's state by state. Which isn't going to work here because agency by agency and maybe even area by area having unique rules. Just because you are in WI, doesn't mean squat if you are in BLM or Forest Service or in Wilderness or in a National Monument. Your WI rules are for WI *state *parks only. That wouldn't nec. apply to local county or municipality owned open space.

So, best answer you'll get is: check your area's rules. follow them. unless qualified, the understanding is the prohibition applies to the vehicle and not how you are using it at the moment.


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## EpicTC (Jun 28, 2009)

TNC said:


> That said, I don't think emtbs make pleasant pedal-only bikes for the most part.


I have the Trek E-Caliber which has a dummy downtube that replaces the battery and drive pack. 
It pedals really well as an analog bike with that set up.


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## Loll (May 2, 2006)

Definitely not in norcal….

Someone beat me to it, but imagine walking or carrying your regular or ebike on your back at Yosemite, then explain to the ranger you just need some extra weight in your back for better workout….the ranger would be very questionable if he or she believes there is no intention to do something else when no one is looking…


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

The OP has a legitimate question and was pretty specific. In other words, what states have a policy in writing about e-bikes on non-motorized trails if the motor is not used. We can discuss all we want about if the rider is breaking laws or how they can get away with breaking the laws. What states specifically address this option. I have read the written state laws for Michigan and riding an e-bike on a non-motorized trail with the motor turned off or the battery removed is not mentioned. I was told that the trails in Michigan have to be posted if the trail manager allows an e-bike.


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## EpicTC (Jun 28, 2009)

jimglassford said:


> The OP has a legitimate question and was pretty specific. In other words, what states have a policy in writing about e-bikes on non-motorized trails if the motor is not used. We can discuss all we want about if the rider is breaking laws or how they can get away with breaking the laws. What states specifically address this option. I have read the written state laws for Michigan and riding an e-bike on a non-motorized trail with the motor turned off or the battery removed is not mentioned. I was told that the trails in Michigan have to be posted if the trail manager allows an e-bike.


Where are you in Michigan? 
I plan on making the trip to visit family and do some work for the Ski Hall of Fame in the UP in September. Planned on brinigng my bike.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

jimglassford said:


> The OP has a legitimate question and was pretty specific. In other words, what states have a policy in writing about e-bikes on non-motorized trails if the motor is not used. We can discuss all we want about if the rider is breaking laws or how they can get away with breaking the laws. What states specifically address this option. I have read the written state laws for Michigan and riding an e-bike on a non-motorized trail with the motor turned off or the battery removed is not mentioned. I was told that the trails in Michigan have to be posted if the trail manager allows an e-bike.


Laws on this can vary, not just between states, but between counties. On the trail system around Heber Utah, E-bikes are permitted. In Park City, they're permitted if you're 65 or older.
To ask "What is the status in other states" is really impossible to answer. I'm not aware of any verbiage on the presence of a battery in the equation in Utah.
People here are not that worked up about it, but I'm sure there are places where you'd get extreme stink-eye from everyone on the trail whether you have a battery or not, if you're on an E-bike where it's not permitted.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

I live a little West of Ann Arbor.


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## EpicTC (Jun 28, 2009)

jimglassford said:


> I live a little West of Ann Arbor.


I grew up just below Traverse City. Tons of good mountain biking around there. I live in Reno now and bike around Tahoe.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

MSU, you have a good point. What happens if you ride on a multi-jurisdictional trail? It is a significant problem for eriders wanting to "follow the rules". I was just researching Tucson and the city allows ebiking and the county does not. The state of AZ has different rules.

Regardless of the signs there are jurisdictions that do not consider an ebike a motor vehicle, by definition. So it makes it very difficult to determine if the sign in front of you refers to a legal "motor vehicle" or a device with a literal motor that may not meet the definition of say federal cpsc "motor vehicle".

A cluster if I ever saw one.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Yeah, none of this has to make sense. I think Kafka was somehow involved in designing the rules.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

The trail from jurisdictional hell. You ride the first 4 miles with your ebike. Then you have to carry your bike on your back for 1 mile. Then you can ride with the motor off for the next 3 miles. Then you have to pay for a shuttle to go around the next 2 miles. Then you can roll your bike through the next 3 miles. Then the grand finally where you get to ride your ebike for the last 2 miles but you risk getting your bike confiscated to get the last 100ft to the trailhead.

I have now forgotten why I was thinking of getting an eMTB.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

EpicTC said:


> I have the Trek E-Caliber which has a dummy downtube that replaces the battery and drive pack.
> It pedals really well as an analog bike with that set up.


I was going to jokingly suggest you could remove the battery AND the motor and get a frame to fit in the motor space to hold a standard BB, and that's nearly exactly what the E-Caliber does!


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## Whiterabbitt (May 16, 2020)

mike_kelly said:


> Is there any general answer to whether an eMTB with the motor off can have access to non-motorized trails?
> 
> In Wisconsin state lands:
> "E-bikes can go anywhere a bike is allowed if the motor is not
> ...


this is a spectacular regulation.

If an ebike motor is running in the woods but noone is there to hear it, is it turned on?


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

and if you see it does it change it? Is it alive or dead?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

EpicTC said:


> I have the Trek E-Caliber which has a dummy downtube that replaces the battery and drive pack.
> It pedals really well as an analog bike with that set up.


Sadly, they're changing the design. All Fazua bikes actually. I forget who bought them, Porche?, but it's going to be an integrated system going forward.


.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

Unfortunately logic will get you no where in the courts.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

In Michigan, there is less ambiguity when it comes to the e-bikes. Here is a clip from a LBS near Traverse City, a popular vacation destination. They summarized the key points for the Michigan laws on their website:

*NON-MOTORIZED NATURAL SURFACE TRAILS*
No eBikes are permitted on state-owned mountain bike trails in Michigan, which includes the Vasa Pathway, Vasa Singletrack, and Cadillac Pathway. The LBS mentions the three trails nearby. eBikes are permitted on paved trails.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Google!

⚡ Electric Bike Laws by State [2022 Update] (ebikesx.com)


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

Nice find, thanks. But of course the multiple jurisdiction problem makes charts like this misleading because it is only true on a specific jurisdiction.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

mike_kelly said:


> Nice find, thanks. But of course the multiple jurisdiction problem makes charts like this misleading because it is only true on a specific jurisdiction.


I just stumbled on it on a search. The interesting thing, I thought, was that in some states, an E-bike is considered a motorized vehicle. I'm sure it doesn't apply to private property (for example, the Heber Utah trail system is on private property and they do allow E-bikes).
I'm one of those guys who likes sharing the trail with 4-wheelers in Moab. You never know when you might need a ride!


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

People for bikes appears to have a detailed state by state doc on ebike laws. But I can't find it from their website. I searched for "people for bikes ebike AZ" to find this one:


https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/static.peopleforbikes.org/docs/E-Bike_Law_Handouts_AZ_Revision.pdf











i found it. This is the most comprehensive list I have found.








State by State Electric Bike Laws | PeopleForBikes


PeopleForBikes is committed to improving biking for everyone. Learn more about our work and join our movement.




www.peopleforbikes.org


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

MSU Alum said:


> Google!
> 
> ⚡ Electric Bike Laws by State [2022 Update] (ebikesx.com)


That is a very incomplete list and the list needs definitions. The list says e-bikes are allowed in Michigan on trails. True, but only PAVED trails. The column for parks is blank and eBikes are not allowed in state parks.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

jimglassford said:


> That is a very incomplete list and the list needs definitions. The list says e-bikes are allowed in Michigan on trails. True, but only PAVED trails. The column for parks is blank and eBikes are not allowed in state parks.


Oops.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Kind of makes you wonder why people just decide for themselves where it's reasonable to ride and eMTB and where it isn't.


.


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## EpicTC (Jun 28, 2009)

_CJ said:


> Sadly, they're changing the design. All Fazua bikes actually. I forget who bought them, Porche?, but it's going to be an integrated system going forward.
> 
> 
> .


Hmmmm, maybe I need to hold on to my bike. I really like the possibilities. 
And yes it was Porsche.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

Since I was interested in Grand Targhee here is their policy. The new rules let every Forest Service admin decide for themselves.
*"E-Bikes *
No E-Bikes are allowed on our trails.

We do not allow e-bikes on the trails with or without their batteries. It is not apparent on some bikes if the battery has been removed. Allowing e-bikes without batteries on the trails gives a false impression that we do allow e-bikes on the trails. Thank you for understanding."


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

PFB has developed a "Class" system that has been approved by about half of the US, including CA. This allows Class 1 & 2 bikes (basically 20 mph with PAS or throttle) on bike paths unless prohibited specifically. However, my county, Orange, doesn't allow them off road. Nothing is stated about removing a battery, but I'd bet it would depend on how well the gendarme was convinced the bike motor couldn't be operated.


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## EpicTC (Jun 28, 2009)

fos'l said:


> PFB has developed a "Class" system that has been approved by about half of the US, including CA. This allows Class 1 & 2 bikes (basically 20 mph with PAS or throttle) on bike paths unless prohibited specifically. However, my county, Orange, doesn't allow them off road. Nothing is stated about removing a battery, but I'd bet it would depend on how well the gendarme was convinced the bike motor couldn't be operated.


Do you have a link to this development?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Go to the PFB site, open 6/7/2022 Pilot Project for e-Bikes in Vermont, bottom of article open Electric Bikes (on the left). This will provide a lot of information.


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## Roaming50 (Apr 30, 2009)

mike_kelly said:


> Is there any general answer to whether an eMTB with the motor off can have access to non-motorized trails?
> 
> In Wisconsin state lands:
> "E-bikes can go anywhere a bike is allowed if the motor is not
> ...


I’ve read this rule as well as state parks do not allow eMTB access, not that I haven’t seen them been used. 

The way I read this is that if you see a ranger then switch the motor off. What will they do?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

I suppose that depends on what they saw you doing before you turned the motor off. They may ask you demonstrate that you can peddle your bike at the 30mph hour they clocked you at before they stopped you


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## Roaming50 (Apr 30, 2009)

mike_kelly said:


> I suppose that depends on what they saw you doing before you turned the motor off. They may ask you demonstrate that you can peddle your bike at the 30mph hour they clocked you at before they stopped you


But it is impossible to do 30mph on Wisconsin single track. It just twists round and round trees like a jumbled ball of yarn. You rarely ever get true speed..


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

Roaming50 said:


> But it is impossible to do 30mph on Wisconsin single track. It just twists round and round trees like a jumbled ball of yarn. You rarely ever get true speed..


Indeed. Luckily our local trails have a "don't ask don't tell" policy.


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## jimglassford (Jun 17, 2018)

mike_kelly said:


> Indeed. Luckily our local trails have a "don't ask don't tell" policy.


Isn't this violating the website's policy of discussion on illegal riding e-bikes on restricted trails?


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## Roaming50 (Apr 30, 2009)

mike_kelly said:


> Indeed. Luckily our local trails have a "don't ask don't tell" policy.


Recently I have been updating the ebike usage maps on Trailforks. Statewide we know that WiDNR does not allow ebikes on any dirt surface trail but they do allow them (with no class designation but a - laughable - 15mph speed limit) on named long distance/rail-trail trail; but again not all - you need to search their website for the list.

At the county level it varies. Some counties specifically allow class-1 while others have explicitly said no. Most I have not found an distinct policy for so, as you say, don't ask, don't tell. 

City parks have different policies again. Wauwesha allows class-1 at Monooka, as I believe West Bend. My local city trails have no ruling, so the rule will be "Don't be ass and don't draw attention to yourself" so they are not forced to come up with a ruling.

With three levels at the state, state itself, county and city, and then at the federal level; forest service and BLM each with their own local regulations and no national policy it's a total clusterfvck. 

It's no surprise that eMTBers are just going to go about their business and potentially trespass. I will carry two bikes with me on my travel (fortunately I have a van so I can keep them out of site) but I will ride the eMTB, whether or not I am allowed, unless there are explicit signs saying no eMTB. I'm not going to trawl through every local jurisdiction rules just to mountain bike.


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## Roaming50 (Apr 30, 2009)

jimglassford said:


> Isn't this violating the website's policy of discussion on illegal riding e-bikes on restricted trails?


Not when the local community has not made a policy one way or the other. It's just left ambiguous.


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## OldSchoolMBer (May 25, 2013)

Roaming50 said:


> Not when the local community has not made a policy one way or the other. It's just left ambiguous.


That's the way it is here, nobody cares what kind of bike you're riding. On my last vehicle the annual inspection sticker was 4 years expired and a cop just said to me "hey man it's time to get your inspection sticker renewed"


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

In the "OC", it's a moot question since (with the exception of a couple really crowded parks) there is virtually no policing, and individuals do it with impunity (I stated this once and was accused of inciting poaching - just stating what is obvious intuitively - to anyone with a brain). For me, riding my MTB or cyclocross bike has become much more fun than e-MTB (but subject to change at any time).


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

I think the "don't ask don't tell" locations are good test demos. If everyone behaves themselves it can be a lead in to making it official. It seems the problem everywhere are the users who scare other people on the trails. If you are transparent on the trails relative to other users no one is going to notice.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

fos'l said:


> In the "OC", it's a moot question since (with the exception of a couple really crowded parks) there is virtually no policing, and individuals do it with impunity (I stated this once and was accused of inciting poaching - just stating what is obvious intuitively - to anyone with a brain). For me, riding my MTB or cyclocross bike has become much more fun than e-MTB (but subject to change at any time).


I don't think it is usually about not policing it is about users complaining to authorities. You don't see the affect until it is too late.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

mike_kelly said:


> it is about users complaining to authorities.


Or lack thereof. Maybe it's regional IME, but it seems most of the complaining happens on the interwebs.


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## EpicTC (Jun 28, 2009)

Question for the tribe: 
Do you think the complaining and/or misuse of trails by people on e-bikes is dependent on the region or general area? 

Example: We have no complaining here on trails near our house, nor at the bike park. In fact, more often than not, when you come upon someone while on the trail and stop to chat, the e-bike brings up a pleasant discussion. 

When we were in a tourist town we heard a lot of complaints because the uneducated vacationer(s) renting e-bikes didn't follow proper etiquette. 

I can understand the angst when it comes to cyclists who don't follow etiquette, but that's not an e-bike or non e-bike thing, its either a jerk or non-jerk thing. Or perhaps its a lack of knowledge.


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## EpicTC (Jun 28, 2009)

fos'l said:


> Go to the PFB site, open 6/7/2022 Pilot Project for e-Bikes in Vermont, bottom of article open Electric Bikes (on the left). This will provide a lot of information.


I'm going show some ignorance here, but...
It took me awhile to realize that PFB was People For Bikes. 
Doh! 🙃


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

It took me a while too 
We don't have any problems on local trails but when I rode in Tucson on a multiuse trail and insisted on yielding to hikers and horses I got many comments that we were the first MTB to yield to them, even though it is posted as such everywhere in the trail system. I also came across a few riders going fast downhill and insteal of slowing down to pass me going up hill, just blasted past at speed.
Maybe it relates to how many people are on the trail. Maybe it is mid-west courtesy here.
I don't think the issue is eBike related but speed and courtesy related that some people think may get worse with ebike speeds.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

EpicTC said:


> When we were in a tourist town we heard a lot of complaints because the uneducated vacationer(s) renting e-bikes didn't follow proper etiquette.


In my area, it's not tourists that fail to follow proper etiquette, it the regular e-mtbr's that are the problem. They are creating a large portion of their own problems.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

mike_kelly said:


> I don't think it is usually about not policing it is about users complaining to authorities. You don't see the affect until it is too late.


There are multiple complainers in socal (a whole web site of them), but little/no action, and it's mentioned frequently. For my (and my wife's) part, we've never been in danger from e-MTB riders, but have encountered potential mishaps from MTB individuals riding unsafely (for example: flying around a corner our of control while we were going around the corner in the opposite direction).


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## EpicTC (Jun 28, 2009)

Cleared2land said:


> In my area, it's not tourists that fail to follow proper etiquette, it the regular e-mtbr's that are the problem. They are creating a large portion of their own problems.


That's really unfortunate. All it really comes down to is courtesy and intelligent riding from everyone on the trail. 
And FWIW, I will guarantee you that even though I'm on an e-bike, I'm not the fastest rider on the trail, nor am I rude. 
In fact, I have two rules in life. 

Don't be an a$$
I don't have time to hang around people who are being an a$$



fos'l said:


> There are multiple complainers in socal (a whole web site of them), but little/no action, and it's mentioned frequently. For my (and my wife's) part, we've never been in danger from e-MTB riders, but have encountered potential mishaps from MTB individuals riding unsafely (for example: flying around a corner our of control while we were going around the corner in the opposite direction).


We have a few blind corners on some of the two way trails near me. I'm glad I have a timberbell on my bike. It has prevented a few possible mishaps


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