# Hardtails on Rock Gardens?



## LMR Sahara (Aug 28, 2016)

A rock garden being a rough, rocky trail, how well do you guys think a decent hardtail can do on a rough Rock Garden trail? Would you recommend it?


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## Slashcrazy (Apr 17, 2016)

I think unless it's super rough and fast a hard tail with a good fork and lower tire pressure would do ok. I don't have a ton of experience with them but that's my thoughts 

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

The bike itself should work fine. It won't have quite the control and comfort, but in some ways, can actually do better than a full suspension. If it's a slower, uphill type garden, you may be sometimes better on a hardtail, since it doesn't waller around, and all of your energy will do into driving forward.
Downhill stuff, it just won't be as comfortable or easily controllable.

Obviously this is a high quality hardtail bike, not a $400 bike shop hardtail. Too cheap, and the bike just flat isn't build for much abuse.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

It totally depends on the rock garden. One man's rock garden is another man's bike path.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Procter said:


> It totally depends on the rock garden. One man's rock garden is another man's bike path.


This. It all depends.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

It's more about the rider than the bike. Work on your skills & worry less about your gear.

That being said, I take my fatbike when Im going to ride a park with mostly rocky trails.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

To me, a 'rock garden' is a trail that has as much rock as it has dirt, or nothing but babyhead rocks on top of babyhead rocks. If I rode 'rock gardens' regularly and extensively, I would probably opt for FS more often than a hardtail. A continuous mile or more of that, and I am usually wishing I had more squish under my tush unless it's just that particular section on a longer ride that otherwise favors a hardtail.

You live in SLO, and I have ridden some of the trails in that area that I would consider rocky in parts, like a certain unmentionable trail off of Cuesta Ridge, and maybe Barranca in Montana de Oro. . . . that kind of stuff. I could certainly be OK with a hardtail if I lived/rode in SLO. I have yet to ride my current bike (a 29+ hardtail) on those trails, but I certainly would if given the chance (and I have a nice FS bike if I want to ride it).

If the rocky stuff is your preference, a good performing front fork would help keep your fillings in your head where they belong, and thus make a hardtail more tolerable on rougher trails. But, if rougher trails are truly your 'get down', then maybe a FS bike is a better choice.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

mik_git said:


> This. It all depends.


And some rock gardens you may want to wear your depends.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ride in the attack position floating off of the saddle, stay loose, and let your legs and arms absorb the bumps. This is why you'll often see experienced riders recommend hardtails for beginners, so they learn basic riding technique. Even on a fully, you shouldn't just plant your butt on the saddle.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Slashcrazy said:


> I think unless it's super rough and fast a hard tail with a good fork and lower tire pressure would do ok. I don't have a ton of experience with them but that's my thoughts


the more rocky the trails are, the more air pressure i run to protect the tires and rims. trying to carry speed through a rock garden on a hardtail with low pressure is a good recipe for wrecked equipment.

i agree with the rest of the posts, it really depends on the terrain/rider.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

You can ride a hard tail on almost anything, including rock gardens, tho perhaps with different technique and speed. Question is, do you want to? I've seen guys on rigid bikes do rock gardens about as well as I can on full squish - which just means a highly skilled rider with no suspension can out ride an average rider with lots of suspension. So it comes down to personal preference and budget. A good hard tail is preferable to a crappy FS. If you can afford a decent FS, then it's just preference. Me, I prefer the cush and easier control of FS (and plus tires!).


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## DiRt DeViL (Dec 24, 2003)

Will be just fine, ride thru chunk on my hardtails all the time and the bikes and I are fine but have to honest, it will rattle the heck out of you.


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

Full Suspension = Fastest through rocks and can be most forgiving for bad line choices

Hardtail = Slower than the FS, but in some cases it can outclimb the FS

Rigid = Slowest on rough trails, but can be better than the FS or hardtail on slow technical trails. Typically lighter and won't have fork dive. The bb and pedal height doesn't change due to fork/shock compression. Most responsive to power inputs. If it's not too rough or loose, this is the fastest climbing bike.

Picture from a recent ride on my rigid bike. Definitely not the fastest bike for these trails, but it's what I have the most fun on.


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

HT bikes in a rock garden are fine but the key to comfort in this case is to roll on the widest tire the rim will allow. More cushion for the pushin'.


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## l'oiseau (May 5, 2015)

Slashcrazy said:


> I think unless it's super rough and fast a hard tail with a good fork and lower tire pressure would do ok. I don't have a ton of experience with them but that's my thoughts
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


A couple schools of thought here...

Low tire pressure is good for crawling and hopping trials style. Also takes a ton of skill.

Higher tire pressure, as was mentioned, is better to safe guard the rims. This requires more speed and momentum to get you through. Faster, but less technical skill involved.

I've ridden some pretty extensive baby head rock gardens with my rigid bike. Low pressure, relatively slow, picking my way through.

With a hardtail I tend to take them with some speed. Helps to have the seat down so you can absorb the bumps with your legs. Standing tall with rigid legs is not the ideal way to handle those on a HT.


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## matt420c (Oct 22, 2015)

very rocky here in TX, used to ride hardtail, glad i switched to full suspension, can ride longer faster.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> And some rock gardens you may want to wear your depends.


had to look that up, haha...


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

While the fatty does smooth out rock gardens quite a bit, I opt for my rigid 29er most of the time. It ain't the fastest, but it does the trick for not walking. I've ridden various parts of PA (Blue Knob, Michaux, Laurel Highlands, Kennerdell, Moraine, etc.) on various bikes and I've always preferred the precision of the rigid bike. Of course, when I blunder into a rock garden on a DH, I often suffer from a diminished level of control and poor vision due to rattling eyeballs.
Recommend? I have to go with "ride what you like". It does take some conditioning and a certain technique to make rigid work, but I am usually no more fatigued than the folks I ride with. With full suspension, there seem to be other demands on the rider that I never have to worry about on a my rigid like those little pre-load moves, and constantly adjusting to the changing geometry/wheelbase. If we are not losing a lot of elevation (therefore, there is little momentum involved), I'd say we're equal. On the downs, the FSers probably can either relax a bit, or just go faster and rest sooner at the bottom. But on climbs and flats, for rock crawling, the rigid or well set-up HT are fine.








(Go ahead - tell me how the leaves smooth that all out.  )

-F


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## OwenM (Oct 17, 2012)

Everything's a compromise. I had the opportunity to ride a wide variety of rock garden "types" just yesterday, and could argue(or agree) with practically everything posted here, in one situation or another, except "it depends". Sometimes it's obvious why what you use is or isn't working, and what would be a better alternative, but that can change from one moment to the next when your trails are widely varied in character. I stick with what suits my preference for the majority of my riding, and live with it when it's not ideal.
I can tell you I dream of FS and gears on extended uphills full of baby heads, though...


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## misterbill (Aug 13, 2014)

Very rocky wherever I ride where I live. I was FLYING down a rocky trail, probably 7 or 8 mph, I was trying to keep away from a large rock on my right with a good dirt trail right next to it. I was going too fast for me and I totally missed my line and went over several good sized rocks. To my extreme surprise my Walmart GS 29 hardtail plowed through it like it wasn't there. I am usually quite surprised about what a bike can do, not what I can do. ([edit]I must mention that I always ride off of the seat when I ride downhill) I have read on here many times that the worst thing that you can try to do is to bail out, I've gotten hurt doing that even in perfect riding conditions.

I have found that the most dangerous place to ride is on a nice gravel road. Those little two to three inch size loose rocks will throw you.


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## RetroGrouchNJ (Jan 28, 2011)

That is standard trail fare in NJ. I have to hump my 26 inch hardtail over lots of that every ride.



jeffw-13 said:


>


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## misterbill (Aug 13, 2014)

...


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

My back prefers full suspension. Other options today as well. Plus sized tires and full fat as well.


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## Mentor (Aug 14, 2015)

:thumbsup:

My old bones do prefer my full suspension bike nowadays, but I have been riding rocky trails on a hardtail for over a decade.


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

Fleas said:


> View attachment 1092935
> 
> (Go ahead - tell me how the leaves smooth that all out.  )
> 
> -F


I hate fall riding for that reason. Heavily leaf covered trails are nasty. They cover the rocks so you can't see then as well, and leaves are slick!

Night leafy riding when it's damp out is akin to suicide...


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

RetroGrouchNJ said:


> That is standard trail fare in NJ. I have to hump my 26 inch hardtail over lots of that every ride.


Living in western PA I have to seek that stuff out. When I lived in the middle of the state everything was chunky.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

I have only ever ridden a fully rigid bike, so my body is my suspension. I ride in Ohio, Michigan and PA mostly when I do, so it can become rooty and rocky, (not like the East Coast and NE...that is ALL a big Rock Garden....) but having grown up on BMX and full rigid's when learning MTB back in the 90's, I can't do any kind of squish. As most have said, you develop the fundamental skills of control, and then adapt. I _could_ get a hardtail and adapt, but I don't feel like I need to...or want to.

I currently use a Surly Krampus, and love every aspect of it. Big wheels for rolling power, sorta fat tires for soft ground and lower tire pressure, BMX- type geometry (mostly in the rear end)for climbing and hucking...but my skills to navigate techy stuff are still what keeps me upright...for the most part...

*jeffw-13*: 
"It's more about the rider than the bike. Work on your skills & worry less about your gear."

This pretty much sums it up for me. I feel like I should be able to ride the trails on my MTB and my BMX...and I still try to for the most part...and, I also ride my MTB att he skatepark sometimes just to hone and compare skill sets. that always gets great reactions from the skaters especially. The BMX guys know me and expect wierdness from me....


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

Some of the pics above are not rock gardens, just trails. 

It's pretty rocky where I live and I only ride a ht. Most things are rideable, you just have to keep your body loose, pick a good line and control your speed. Yoy may not succeed at first, but you'll figure ut out eventually. Wear knee protection if you have any. Don't brake too much - too slow can be as bad as too fast. 

There are people that ride rock gardens I wouldn't dare to, regardless of availiable suspension.


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## DethWshBkr (Nov 25, 2010)

justwan naride said:


> Some of the pics above are not rock gardens, just trails.


All depends I guess.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

DethWshBkr said:


> I hate fall riding for that reason. Heavily leaf covered trails are nasty. They cover the rocks so you can't see then as well, and leaves are slick!
> 
> Night leafy riding when it's damp out is akin to suicide...


We did a trip to Ellicottville, NY in late Fall. It is known for lots of rocks. There were also lots of leaves. Then it snowed the night we arrived. The next day was difficult (we all took at least one good hard fall each - I almost broke my thumb), but rewarding. Going with the right people made it fun. We did NOT night ride there.

-F


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

*OneSpeed* said:


> the more rocky the trails are, the more air pressure i run to protect the tires and rims. trying to carry speed through a rock garden on a hardtail with low pressure is a good recipe for wrecked equipment.
> 
> i agree with the rest of the posts, it really depends on the terrain/rider.


Just curious, what PSI are you going up to for rock gardens?

Whether I go up or down in PSI for a rock garden depends on how how fast I plan on going thru it, but either way, I keep the PSI as low as possible to limit tire deflection and increase traction. The rear on a hard tail will get out of control quickly in a rock garden with too much tire pressure. (the front will too, but the sus fork will help keep it under control).

I think a hard tail is fine, but with the right equipment. Wide rims and big tires will allow for lower tire pressure and help keep the rear end under better control. Also, a steel, Ti or carbon frame and not aluminum.



coke said:


> Full Suspension = Fastest through rocks and can be most forgiving for bad line choices
> 
> Hardtail = Slower than the FS, but in some cases it can outclimb the FS
> 
> Rigid = Slowest on rough trails, but can be better than the FS or hardtail on slow technical trails. Typically lighter and won't have fork dive. The bb and pedal height doesn't change due to fork/shock compression. Most responsive to power inputs. If it's not too rough or loose, this is the fastest climbing bike. Picture from a recent ride on my rigid bike. Definitely not the fastest bike for these trails, but it's what I have the most fun on.


I agree with what you said about the rigid. Rigid is by far the most fun, however, not always up to the task. I would add for the different types of bikes in rock gardens that for me, it depends on what type of ride I am doing. If it is just a 1 or 2 hour ride with a few medium rock gardens then I prefer the rigid. If it is a 1 to 2 hour ride with a lot of chunk throughout and steep downhill sections, then then time to move up to the hard tail. If it is a 2 to 4 hour ride with lots of gnar and big rock gardens, then I will go with my full squish. I do run pretty big tires on most my bikes though.

















Here are some small and old 1.95" wide gum walls. They actually do ok with the i21 rim.
















But some high volume 2.4" tires are much better and allow for a much lower PSI.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Yes on that not too much air pressure on the rear. I'll be riding along and take a big bounce from the rear and think, "I need to slow that rebound down" and then "oh, yeah, I'm on my hardtail!".


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

justwan naride said:


> Some of the pics above are not rock gardens, just trails.
> 
> It's pretty rocky where I live and I only ride a ht. Most things are rideable, you just have to keep your body loose, pick a good line and control your speed. Yoy may not succeed at first, but you'll figure ut out eventually. Wear knee protection if you have any. Don't brake too much - too slow can be as bad as too fast.
> 
> There are people that ride rock gardens I wouldn't dare to, regardless of availiable suspension.


Just curious, what is your definition of a rock garden?

Your right on about picking a good line, getting the speed right and most importantly, keeping loose. I would also add, especially for hardtails and rigid, being able to unweight either or both wheels quickly and decisively. Also, staying on top of the rocks is key.


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## OffTheTop (Sep 20, 2015)

I've ridden stuff similar to the photos on a Costco hardtail 29er, but not for extended distances. It's doable, just not comfortable and I really had to slow down to get through it without getting dizzy. My back, neck and butt were sore afterwards. It also depends on your sense of caution or adventure. I am more of the former so I take it easy. The same trails are a ton of fun with full suspension.


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## Cicch95 (Apr 6, 2016)

I agree it's the rider more than the bike! Been riding a hardtail for close to 20 years.......through many a rock garden!


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Will a hardtail do well? I think that the great many posts here showing that it certainly can be done means that a hardtail can definitely do well in rocks.

Would I recommend it? Maybe, or maybe not. This part of the question is rather subjective and to give a straight answer would depend on the type of rider that you are. Do you like the challenge of slowly picking your way through obstacles like figuring out a puzzle? Then, yes a hard tail would be a great choice.

Do you like wind-in-the-hair speed and the adrenaline rush of going fast? If so, then a full-suspension bike would be a much better choice.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Procter said:


> It totally depends on the rock garden. One man's rock garden is another man's bike path.


Yes.

I just take it in a different style if I'm on hard tail and my wife's on the AM dual suspension bike. Lately I will ride the fattie with knee pads and make clearing a tough section the challenge instead of going ripping fast.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

All we have in Phoenix is rock gardens.








It's a different style, riding a HT/rigid in rocks, but it has a unique charm.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

I've pedaled thru rock gardens, I've pedaled up rocks and have flown thru rockgardens on downhill trails. Seems kinda easier since there is no rear suspension to compress leading to a pedal strike.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Where did the OP go? All I see are rocks. lol


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## LMR Sahara (Aug 28, 2016)

noapathy said:


> Where did the OP go? All I see are rocks. lol


I (the OP) am eating rocks


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

LMR Sahara said:


> I (the OP) am eating rocks


Low in calories, high in minerals. Only downside I see is it may be hard on the teeth (and other areas if they're too big or sharp). :eekster:


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

Huck it ^^

Sent from my kltedv using Tapatalk


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## tubbnation (Jul 6, 2015)

OP, what kind of rider are you? How much of the rocks do you want to feel?

Btw, I'm older dude on a rigid that loves chunk. Pic is from San Lee in NC.


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## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

Old picture, but those that ride Pisgah will recognize the rock garden.

Rigid, sandals, no down-tube.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

You can tune your ht to be more compliant over rocks. Just about everything contributes. Even the midsoles of your shoes.
Caarbon bars, carbon or ti seatpost or a dropper. Getting a carbon, steel or ti frame with some rear compliance. Plus tires/wide rims can be the biggest range extender in a long time. That extra volume at lower pressure can do the most with the rear tire space being the most important.


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## Rumblefish29er (Oct 6, 2012)

I've found that I clear them most successfully on a hardtail fatbike, and also on a hardtail singlespeed. Being forced to standup keeps me in a more appropriate body position. My FS gets too wallowy and I get lazy and try to sit and spin through it. For the FS to work well in rocks I have to stiffen up the suspension so much that it loses it plushness in other parts of the trail.

Note comfort does not equal the best tool for the job....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DyrtGear (Sep 9, 2016)

*Starting riding hardtail*

I started riding a hardtail 29 and 27.5 and was not sure how they would do on some of the trails with more roots and rocks. I was pleasantly surprised how a hardtail handles through it. Definitely a little tougher than with FS but a ton of fun.

Not a super rock garden but a good time


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## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

rocky as heck here. I rode with hardtail most of my 16 years here, and it can be dicey and need fair amt of hike a biking on the rocks

then I got a Plus bike fullie a few weeks ago. got incredibly easier. cleaned many rocky climbs and gardens I never cleaned on my hardtails (heck not on my 15 yr old freeride fullie)

just ordered a Plus bike hard tail .. I will not be surprised if it is just as good in rocks as the fullie. Because Tires.


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## OffTheTop (Sep 20, 2015)

BCsaltchucker said:


> rocky as heck here. I rode with hardtail most of my 16 years here, and it can be dicey and need fair amt of hike a biking on the rocks
> 
> then I got a Plus bike fullie a few weeks ago. got incredibly easier. cleaned many rocky climbs and gardens I never cleaned on my hardtails (heck not on my 15 yr old freeride fullie)
> 
> just ordered a Plus bike hard tail .. I will not be surprised if it is just as good in rocks as the fullie. Because Tires.


You'll love the plus bike in the rock gardens. No comparison between my old hardtail and my 6fattie. I could use better suspension but still

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

ARandomBiker said:


> All we have in Phoenix is rock gardens.
> View attachment 1093909
> 
> 
> It's a different style, riding a HT/rigid in rocks, but it has a unique charm.


Deem Hills !


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

RajunCajun44 said:


> Deem Hills !


Close!

It's actually T'Bird park, right at the bridge that crosses the road.


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## misterbill (Aug 13, 2014)

Not sure what constitutes a rock garden, there is actually dirt showing here. It gets worse, but I didn't have time for extra hiking today(I do not ride in here).


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## C.M.S (Aug 28, 2009)

HT's and Rock Gardens is where it all began for me . I have since switched to full squish though .


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## katsup (Jun 28, 2016)

On rock gardens with my hard tail, it is my hands that start to hurt first (even with an air fork) which causes me to slow down My rear is usually fine as my knees are taking most of the shaking. The bike preforms fine.

Imagine a bunch of tennis ball size rocks for about 1/2 mile on a downhill section.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

One of the race courses I ride has a fast, downhill rocky section. I wish I had a full suspension for it, but I don't, I race a hard tail. So I run a little extra pressure in the rear (couple PSI) to protect the rim with 2.2 tires. But when I start the climbing parts, I am glad I am on the hard tail.

All compromise. The bike can handle anything I am willing to dish out. The bike is limited by my talent.


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## C.M.S (Aug 28, 2009)

All compromise. The bike can handle anything I am willing to dish out. The bike is limited by my talent.[/QUOTE]

You sir definitely get it :thumbsup:


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Sidewalk said:


> All compromise. The bike can handle anything I am willing to dish out. The bike is limited by my talent.


THAT is a great quote!!!


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## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

jeffw-13 said:


> Living in western PA I have to seek that stuff out. When I lived in the middle of the state everything was chunky.


I see you ride Moraine. You know the name means "pile of rocks". That's my home area, but I didn't start riding until long after I moved away. Tried riding it on my beginner hardtail when I was a noob. I should try riding it now that I have a better bike & better skills, before I'm just to darn old for rock gardens.


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