# Heart rate vs Breathing rate while riding



## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

The heart attack thread here and in the Colorado forum got me to dig out my heart rate monitor today. I put it on for a routine ride this afternoon and watched my HR as I rode. Part of my results puzzle me though.

I'm 55, so my theoretical "redline" is 165. 
And that makes my 60% - 80% training range at 99 - 132 bpm.

As expected, once I hit the low 160s I was beginning to breath harder; not labored breathing but my body knew I was working. I touched the low 170s a couple times on extended climbs and that was much more demanding and not sustainable for a long time. Again, this is what I expected at those percentages of max HR. 

What surprised me though was that in my "target range" and even up to ~145 or so (~88% max HR) my breathing didn't seem any different than it does now sitting at my desk. The HRM said my heart was beating faster, and I could feel the pulse matching the beating heart on the display but my breathing didn't see a correspondingly higher rate. 

That seems odd to me. I would expect a more linear relationship between heart and respiration rates.

My resting HR is consistently in the low 60s which as I understand it is pretty good for a Buick my age. 

What am I missing here?


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I don't now what to make of it either. When my HR monitor's strap battery died a year ago, I just didn't replace it and quit keeping track. 

The last time I used it, I was 55 also and was routinely seeing 188 to 194 on sustained climbs and felt fine. I would get to the top of a climb and it would be under 100 within a minute or less, so I was told by a cardiac nurse/friend, not to worry about it.

I've spoken to my doc about it on a couple of occasions and he said not to worry either.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

I'm 67. This past winter I would routinely see my heart rate around 175 on climbs in the snow on my fat bike. That was mildly alarming, mainly because those same climbs in the summer have me around 155-165. I'm a curious guy, talked to a cardiologist buddy who's also a biker. He recommended getting a Kardia so that I could get an on-trail EKG. It was normal. I also picked up a pulse oximeter off Amazon just to make sure my oxygenation was staying where it ought to be. All is well. I survived the fatbike season, feel good on my rides, breathe hard only when I'm working hard, no nausea or pain. I'll probably get a stress echo once my insurance deductible is done this year but my as my cardiologist says, if I can survive daily cardiac stress of climbing on a mountain bike, there's not likely to be any urgency about it.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Actual max HR for an individual can be much different than the "theoretical" rate. And hitting absolute max is very very difficult. I typically only get to with 10 bpm of mine on very hard efforts. I'll hit my max only after repeated extreme efforts in competitive situations. 

HR can be useful when understood and taken in context. RPE can be a better measure for more casual training and riding for health benefits.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

Exactly, that's why I said "theoretical" and mine is clearly above that number. Could be genetics, could be the fact I was an endurance athlete from my pre-teens through early 40s before returning to riding in my 50s. Maybe that work then is still paying dividends.

In any case, here's an interesting article and calculator for a better max HR calculation:

https://www.ntnu.edu/cerg/hrmax

This line from the article is especially interesting:


> "The traditional formula for determining HRmax is "220 minus age", but can underestimate HRmax by up to 40 beats per minute in seniors. In fact, the method is inaccurate already at an age of 30-40 years, and *gets more inaccurate the older you are*."


At the end of the day I'm not going to go back to wearing my HRM every ride with one eye glued to the output. I just thought I'd check my RPE vs some objective numbers and - the point of the thread in the first place - my breathing vs HR was what surprised me. Then again, with the above revised max HR maybe it does make sense.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Your max heart rate is not 220-age. Forget that. Your max heart rate is the maximum YOU can hit. Everyone is different. I've found chest strap heart rate monitors to be quite accurate. I'm 66 and when I was 61 I had a stress echocardiogram. I hit a max of 199 BPM. That is very close to what I saw, at the time, on my HRM. I've stopped using HRM's just because it's useless information to me. I bike with my youngest son....and will continue to do so until I drop dead. 

With regard to breathing rate Vs. heart rate, I think that is more complicated and probably ramps up non-linearly approaching higher efforts. It's the build up of CO2, not the lack of O2 in the blood that stimulates breathing rate increases. The whole oxygen/CO2 exchange is active, not only passive diffusion across a membrane (though that is absolutely a factor!). In fact, to that point, almost all of my biking is above 7000 feet. As I go higher, I find that pressure breathing (as used in mountaineering - see "Graham's Law of gaseous diffusion") helps - especially with recovery in less steep areas.


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## CUP-TON (Dec 7, 2016)

I'm almost 55 and have a resting heart rate of around 45-46. As a result of monitoring my HR while riding, I consider my max to be about 172-175. Once I near the 160s I change my breathing which seems to help lower my HR quickly. Like MSU, I use belly breathing and pressure breathing to help recovery after long hard climbs. Sometimes it's so automatic now that I don't feel like I suffer much on some brutal climbs as I tend to recover much quicker using these breathing techniques. 
Most of my riding is around 6300-7000'. Here is where I use belly breathing, as it helps with clear out the Co2. Once I get around 9000' I try to remember to use pressure breathing.
Some days every climb still sucks, but the breathing techniques seems to help.


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

TheBaldBlur said:


> Exactly, that's why I said "theoretical" and mine is clearly above that number. Could be genetics, could be the fact I was an endurance athlete from my pre-teens through early 40s before returning to riding in my 50s. Maybe that work then is still paying dividends.
> 
> In any case, here's an interesting article and calculator for a better max HR calculation:
> 
> ...


That formula is crap. It said my max is 175. I had a ride last week where my highest HR was 199 and I had 197 BPM for 30 seconds. DON'T GO BY ANY FORMULA!


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

If your HR does not drop back to normal range in a few minutes after a hard exertion you pushed it too hard/too long. 

Forget the '220-age' formula. That is very outdated even as a rough estimate. Use the Karvonen formula for a better estimate, as it adjusts for resting HR. Also, gender plays a role and so does the exercise -- eg running and bike riding will have different max HR for the same person -- biking is normally ~ 5 BPM less than running.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

dave54 said:


> If your HR does not drop back to normal range in a few minutes after a hard exertion you pushed it too hard/too long.
> 
> Forget the '220-age' formula. That is very outdated even as a rough estimate. Use the Karvonen formula for a better estimate, as it adjusts for resting HR. Also, gender plays a role and so does the exercise -- eg running and bike riding will have different max HR for the same person -- biking is normally ~ 5 BPM less than running.


I'll add some caveats to that:

1) Dehydration and blood plasma volume loss can result in abnormally high heart rates that don't necessarily correlate to perceived efforts. And, that can also lead to prolonged high HR.

2) If you stop at the end of an effort, yes, it should drop after a bit. If you keep on riding or hit a descent, it might even go up from there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mr_chrome (Jan 17, 2005)

I've spent years working on breathing technique when working out so I make an effort to anticipate changes and change my breathing to meet it; if I'm about to hit a big climb, I start hyperventilating, increasing oxygen intake and it works for me.......on long sustained climbs, I can get my breathing, my cadence, and my heart rate to sync, and it lets this old man out-climb many younger guys who aren't as serious about biking.........my max heart rates run in the low 170's and my resting heart rate runs in the 50's.......


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Probably crazy, but I just use a combination of RPE and breathing rate.

When I'm climbing hard and long, I pass the time by counting breaths. If 100 takes less than 3:20, it's time to let the young guys fly, and throttle back a bit.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I simply have no clue why you should care.
At your age you probably exercised before any gadget.
Just keep doing that.
The numbers are tools.
People use tools to make $$.
Your food intake influences your HB.
Your caffeine intake influences your heart beat.
The max for your age is irrelevant, it is an average, you are an individual.
I am 60, if i use what was considered decades ago my max should be 220 minus 60 or 160. If my heartbeat is 161 or 172 what does it mean?
Nothing.
My brother and 1 can pass our max because they talk about average and we are more active than average.
We do not die, the numbers are not meant for individuals.
Because something is repeated does not make it a fact.
The earth is not flat.
Because it is said or written by a professor makes no difference
people are humans and make mistakes.
Just have fun, exercise, use your common sense and listen to your body.
My 2 cents is Smile !!


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

Months away from sixty I am.

Don't use no monitors, don't check my pulse, I just ride my bike like I stole It.

When I'm deep In the flow or gulping air or telling my legs to shut up on a long climb I know I'm fine, I know I'm getting a good workout.
I get off on the high and cannot Imagine wanting the numbers of HR and all that.
I am not prepping for a race.

Fellow Old Farts, do something for me, just for a month.
Stop strapping stuff around your chest or what eva.
leave Strava OFF and just go ride your mountain bike until you run out of water and food, then go home.

If you do this I swear you will find enlightenment 

I cannot Imagine wanting to monitor and chart myself as I age and slow down.
I'd rather have fun riding my mountain bike ~~


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

I think what the OP is referring to is when he is in 'the zone' he has a working heart beat with a slow breathing rate. I experience this and I can go all day in this state, but if I have a challenge that requires a greater amount of effort, the heart lifts its beat a little, but the breathing goes up significantly. For me in road riding mode, if I am in a steady state of comfort at say 20mph, to raise the speed to 22mph, both rates will rise, but the breathing is much more laboured, and further increases in road speed will create rises that ultimately will see the breathing beat me first.

Eric


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Osco said:


> Fellow Old Farts, do something for me, just for a month.
> Stop strapping stuff around your chest or what eva.
> leave Strava OFF and just go ride your mountain bike until you run out of water and food, then go home.
> 
> If you do this I swear you will find enlightenment


Nope, I do what I want.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

My lung function sucks, I'm always gasping while my compatriots seem fine.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I've never given too much thought to my respiration rate versus heart rate while riding. I do know that I had to get a respirator fitness test for work a couple of years ago. They made me do it twice and according to the doc, it was because they didn't expect the numbers that they got. Apparently, I blew 120% of the expected normal for my age. Bonus! 

I guess quitting smoking at 22 was a good thing.


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## oldcolonial (Aug 28, 2018)

There is a lot of discussion about max heart rates. A few points to add:
- All of the maximums based on age are just guidelines. The original studies showed that there was significant variation around the average. If you want/need to know your max you need to test for it. There are lots of recipes out there for this but generally they involve a hard workout that ends up having you measure your heart rate at the end of a period where you are working uncomfortably hard.
- Max heart rate varies by activity. For instance, in decreasing order its likely look something like this highest XC skiing, next running, cycling, rowing on down to swimming. This can vary though, if for instance you are a highly trained rower who is not very good at XC skiing you might see a higher max rowing than skiing.
- The max is only useful in determining your training zones. Your training zones are only useful if you are concerned about over training. That is you are concerned about doing more than you need to in a given workout to get the desired training effect. Over doing it in this instance is a problem because you wont get any "extra credit" for overdoing it but your ability to properly do your next workouts will be compromised. If you are a weekend bike warrior who does some training during weekdays you probably don't need the HRM ( I own one but don't use it for this reason). I just go out and ride and push it when I feel the need and or the terrain dictates it.


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