# Rear tire losing traction on climbs



## delvermedic (Oct 10, 2011)

Hello everyone, Ive now been riding for a couple of months and have noticed I am having alot of trouble keeping traction with my rear wheel while climbing especially on short steep climbs without much speed going into them. This usually makes me have to stop and dismount and hike the bike to the top. What I am wondering is:

Is this an experience thing? The longer I ride, the faster I will go keeping better momentum into climbs?

Is it gearing? Im still out of shape and a heavy guy so I generally kick it to an easier gear to get up the hills

Is it the season? Most of the trails I ride are heavily covered in leaves and pine needles.

Or is it equipment? I ride a Giant Talon 2 29r with maxxis crossmark tires stock except for seat and upgraded flat pedals.

Thanks for the time!


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## joe_bloe (Nov 18, 2010)

What air pressure do you run in the tire? Do you stay seated in the saddle to climb, or do you stand and mash?


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## swingset (Oct 14, 2010)

Watch this:

The Essential Techniques: Short, Sharp Climbs - YouTube


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

The video kind of assume unlimited traction. On a lot of short steep hills that's not the case.

To me the key is to spin circles - don't mash the pedals. When you mash you have a power stroke as each foot as pressed down. As your foot reaches the bottom of it's stroke, the bike slows a bit, and then the next power stroke starts with the other foot. When you start the power stroke, that's when your rear tire is going to lose traction.

To prevent your tire from spinning out you need to have a consistent output of power throughout each revolution. That may mean backing off a bit on your power a bit on the down strokes (unless you're really good at spinning the cranks). If you start to feel your tire losing traction, apply less power - and again, at a consistent output. If the traction is really low and you had little momentum you may find that the bike is barely moving forward or may stop moving forward (practice your track stand) and slowly keep apply more pressure being sure that the tire is not spinning. With practice it gets easier.

Also, if you are completely winded, or are going 100% when your wheel spins, you're likely not going to make the climb. Make sure that you have enough energy to increase or decrease your power output as needed to get up the hill. It's a balance between more power to climb faster, but less power to keep the wheel under you.


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

delvermedic said:


> Is this an experience thing? The longer I ride, the faster I will go keeping better momentum into climbs?
> 
> Is it gearing? Im still out of shape and a heavy guy so I generally kick it to an easier gear to get up the hills
> 
> ...


It could very well be a combination of all of these things. How worn are your tires? As mentioned already, the tire pressure plays a huge role in the traction heading up and down.

With leaves and needles covering the trails you should expect to not have as much traction as if it was just bare dirt, but the tire pressure and any potential wear are probably your largest factors.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Standing?*



delvermedic said:


> Hello everyone, Ive now been riding for a couple of months and have noticed I am having alot of trouble keeping traction with my rear wheel while climbing especially on short steep climbs without much speed going into them. This usually makes me have to stop and dismount and hike the bike to the top. What I am wondering is:
> 
> Is this an experience thing? The longer I ride, the faster I will go keeping better momentum into climbs?
> 
> ...


If you're standing, you shift your weight forward off the rear wheel, causing it to lose traction.

Also, yeah... tire pressure is big here. Especially with Crossmarks. Crossmark tires are excellent roll fast, go fast on hardpack kinda tires, and not so good for loose stuff.

29ers don't need much air in the tires. You mention that you're heavy, but don't specify how heavy. No worries. Point of reference, I'm 210# and run 25 PSI front, 28 PSI rear with 2.2" 29er tires and innertubes (as opposed to tubeless, where you can run a bit lower pressure). Smaller tires need a bit more air, bigger tires typically less, depending on how stiff the sidewalls are.

Flat pedals are also going to make it harder to pedal in circles, since you have no 'pull up' stroke. Down stroke only pedaling makes for more uneven power, which can also break the tire loose.

But, I'll bet that standing is where you're losing it. Try using a lower gear and 'sit and spin' more. Keep your weight on the saddle, try not to pull up or back on the bars and see how it goes.


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## Loudviking (Oct 23, 2011)

^^^ Damn, all you guy's are right on it, nothing to add but rep^^^


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## delvermedic (Oct 10, 2011)

Thanks for the tips, ill try some and see how it goes. To answer the questions I kinda mix between standing and sitting with probably more standing as I get tired. The tires are only about 3 months old since I upgraded my bike to the Talon in October. As for pressure I am generally running about 32 psi. Current weight is 252 (and dropping)


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## marpilli (Feb 8, 2011)

Awhile back I had similar issues. This thread helped me better understand some of the factors in a climb.

The things I'm doing that seem to help (some previously mentioned by others):
1) Get in a low gear and stay there
2) Lean forward to help keep that front wheel down
3) Scoot forward on the seat so I'm sitting on the "nose"
4) Gently "pull back" on the handlebars about half way up the climb to dig in the rear tire so I don't loose traction
5) Keep spinning in a seated, smooth, powerful motion. No stomping or standing up.
6) Keep my eyes on the line I'm attempting to take, not looking down at the tire
7) If I can, gather some speed right before the incline so the momentum will help carry me up as far as I can get.
8) Run lower pressure in my rear tire to increase traction

I'm sure there are other things. This is all I could think of for now. Oh, and practice, practice, practice.


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

delvermedic said:


> To answer the questions I kinda mix between standing and sitting with probably more standing as I get tired.


Sitting while climbing is a more efficient position than standing and as you get more experienced and also more endurance, you will probably find yourself standing less and less on the climbs.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

lots of good tips already. it might be that you just plain don't have enough traction. shift weight back until the front tire starts to lift. if you are still losing traction, there's nothing much else you can do until the leaves and needles get ridden off the trail. as someone else mentioned, being smooth helps too.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

swingset said:


> Watch this:
> 
> The Essential Techniques: Short, Sharp Climbs - YouTube


Is this available in English?


Good tips.


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## Rock_Garden (Jan 30, 2011)

marpilli is on the money, great advice there

I'd add that if you're looking to get an extra bit of power when you're already tapped out (like trying to pop it over a ledge or something on an already steep climb) try standing, but standing off towards the back of the saddle. Only pick up like an inch off the saddle. Your quads will be burning but you'll put more power down and lighten up the front wheel to get it up over an obstacle.


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## Eckstream1 (Jul 27, 2011)

Get rid of those Crossmarks... 
They are great for road riding or rail trails (smooth & flat)....

That was the first thing to go on my newest bike... After one ride I swapped em for a set of Forte Pisgahs from Performance Bike.

The Fortes roll a bit slower... But they make up for it in higher volume and better traction!
They also allow you to run a lower pressure giving you a better contact patch.


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## akiracornell (Jan 16, 2012)

im only 6 month mountin biker but have hundreds of miles under my belt already and have tryed different techniques based on suggestions of a few others, one of which trained with the us olympic cycling coach when he was younger.
when attacking a hill it is definatley trial and error learning which gear your going to use, whether your going to sit and spin with clips or stand and stomp, or both depending on the hill. each technique hits slightly different muscle groups. Are you short legged or long legged. longer legs have more leverage and are more suitible to sitting and climbing. standing uses much more of your glute and hips muscles as well as upper body. each technique takes practice and muscle conditioning. 

Now for the technical tip, if you want to be a seated climber clipped pedals are a must, this where the olympic guy really helped me. rpm rpm rpm. Spinning is more of a lift and kick motion, not a pushing down motion. Leg posture should be knees inward brushing your top tube, never bowing outward which creates knee problems. aligning your cleats slightly pigeon toed can help keep the knees inward. I practice around town maintaining the fastest spin I can without bouncing. If I start bouncing I switch to a higher gear till it smooths out. The point is to establish a smooth cadence faster than im used to.

I know sounds silly but here is why it works. Smooth high cadence spinning is more aroebic than a slower grinding cadence. In a long climb, a slower cadence makes you climb faster, but on a challenging long hill it eventually produces more lactic acid and muscle fatigue while nearing the top of the climb. If two equally conditioned persons race up a long hill the person stomping will definately beat you up the first half, but as fatigue sets he will start to slow. Even if you can barely catch up by the time you hit the top, your climb was more aroebic while his was more anaroebic, hence, he is more physically spent. I promise it works, Hills that i never could make it up i started to. Like story of the tortus and the hair. If theres a long hill you have never made it up, practice this technique for a couple miles a day for a week and try that hill again. The key is spin faster and go a little slower, its hard at first to try and hold back because you feel like you should have more momentum. See how far you get.

if i commited to a hill while sitting and spinng, and i decide im gonna stand up i will find a spot where i take 2 clicks down on the rear cassete. This ratio always seems to work for me, 3 clicks and the work rate seems higher. and if im gonna stand its usually to give my legs a break. then i may switch back if it mellows out



I know i got a little off base from the original post, but as far as really steep climbs go, you can sit or stand. If the gear is slightly too low your gonna spin out, or too high and theres no leverage. My new riding partner is a stand climber 80% of the time and he is a cardio freak. Watching him i found  the trick to this method is body position. while rocking side to side can be help it doesnt work on really steep climbs where your slipping. You have to minimize side to side and stabilize those bars for the steep stuff . You do not want to rest your upper body weight too far forward over the bars as you would on pavenment, you need to hang back enough with strong arms and a tight stomache, to get your weight on the rear tire. The shallower the hill the more you can rest forward. Super steep climbs feel like your almost gonna wheelie. this where experimentation with the highest gear your legs can handle will keep you from slipping. happy trails all


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Just roost harder.


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## kris. (Jan 14, 2012)

1. low gear
2. ass down
3. if that´s not helping: buy maxxis ardent or aspen


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## Rider Mel (Mar 16, 2004)

*My 2 cents*

You certainly have a bunch of good advice here. That said, here is very simple way to think of body positioning. Seriously, it works!

1. Slide forward on the saddle. You want the nose to be tickling your sphinter. You are not really either fully sitting or standing.

2. Lower your shoulders so you are almost on top of the bars.

Have fun.


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## manabiker (Jul 18, 2010)

Humans like everything else in nature take the easiest route, like water going downhill, your gearing has alot to do with what LOW gear means, 3/10 has a low gear that may be too low, a 2x10 low gear would be 2 or 3 up from the low gear on a 3/10, the lowest gear isn't always the best, find the one that works for you by experimenting, if you are using your lowest gear it may be too low a gear, that may be your spin out problem. good luck, and congradulations on the weight loss, keep up the good work..


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## TheNightman (Aug 12, 2010)

I agree with Manabiker about making sure that you find the right gear, not just assuming that the lowest gear will work best. If you don't have the smoothest pedaling, you're going to be laying down power unevenly and it will cause you to lose traction when you give the cranks a little burst of torque. If you notice that your pedal stroke is kind of "jerky" like that, I would suggest trying a slightly higher gear. You'll have to push harder, but the higher gear will cause your pedal stroke to even out.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

The trick that helps me on climbs is to pull up on handlebars from the side opposing the leg that pushes down. It puts the bike in a bit of a rocking motion back and forth and gets a bit more bite.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Another trick that works well for me....*



Axe said:


> The trick that helps me on climbs is to pull up on handlebars from the side opposing the leg that pushes down. It put the bike in a bit of a rocking motion back and worth and gets a bit more bite.


... on my singlespeed when traction is low and standing and mashing....

Kinda crank the bike forward and gently, push the bike behind you during the power stroke. When you get to the dead spot (pedals at 6 and 12 o'clock) throw the bike forward to get past the dead spot while keeping the power on smoothly.


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## Ericmopar (Aug 23, 2003)

All good advice. 
My 2 cents is to try a Single Ply 2.35 Maxxis Minion DHR in 60 compound, if the conditions are loose and rocky. Pair it up with a Single ply 2.35 Minion DHF on the front.

Or; Nevegal 2.1 or 2.35s in DTC. 

None of these tires will roll quite as fast as the Crossmarks, but they have much better traction.


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## Blueliner (Apr 5, 2010)

I have only been riding for a couple of years, and have struggled with this as well. I am not sure if anyone mentioned it, but knowing the trails help as well. We usually go on three trails and once you get to know them you know how long the climb is, what gears to be in, when to use momentum, when to coast and when to give-rr. This has made the biggest difference to me, a guy with limited technique and experience

Blueliner


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

My biggest mistake was not being aware of where my weight was. I had a habit from riding large hills on my way to work that are all paved. I would stand and lean forward, it really helped with power but over does it on the trails. Now when i feel the rear start to slip a bit i just shift my weight back abit and i could feel the extra grip


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## Will Goes Boing (Jan 25, 2008)

It's all about technique as it is really a delicate balancing act especially on the really steep climbs w/ loose surface. Ideally you want to sit down and spin as much as you can.

For me I have a 2x10 setup so I don't have a "granny" gear like the 3x8/9/10 guys have, so on some of the really steep stuff I actually have to get off the seat. The key is to leave your body as far back and low as possible while having your chest hover over the bar. Look up and keep as smooth of a pedal stroke as possible. 

It's not easy to do physically, so if you're not in shape even if you know what to do, you might not be able to execute it.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

It's more technique, knowledge, and fitness than equipment. Regarding rear wheel slips, it's about where your weight is spread out, how smooth your power output is, and your ability to maintain a steady speed. If you're putting it out in spurts, like mashing at low speed, basically accelerating and with sharp strokes and then slowing down between strokes due to the slope/gravity, and you're not putting weight over where the tire meets the ground (more weight/force on tire where it touches the ground = more friction), those sharp accelerations, which also counter the deceleration sharply, creates a force that overwhelms the tire's traction and causes the tire to spin. Bumps also unweight the tire, so does bouncing on the bike, so an active FS helps here, which sort of evens out the weight being put on the tire. Tires also matter, but if they work on the rest of the trail, I don't think the climbs should be a problem, though if they're fairly bad on the rest of the trail, the climbs likely only make its problem(s) more apparent.

If it's a long climb, I make myself think "pedal with smooth circles", making my cranks spin smoothly as fast through the power zone (where the crank is forward and being pushed down) as the rest of the crank turn, using a gear that's high enough to hit a balance between making my legs burn and making my heart rate climb.

If it's a short climb, I try to enter with as much speed as possible and make myself think "retain as much as the entry speed as possible". Even if you do mash, which would normally do power spurts at slow speed, as long as you're pushing a similar gear you used to power up to that speed, maybe shifting down 1 gear at a time if it becomes too difficult to maintain speed, you are going fast enough that it's not doing significant acceleration/deceleration, you'd maintain a steadier speed and traction, losing only maybe 1-2 mph at 10 mph, rather than ~3 mph at 5 mph. That is what that video, I think the 3rd poster shared, demonstrates. It works, only if you have the mental and physical capacity to execute it. Fatigue and other mental blocks tend to not even give you the opportunity to try, but even with fatigue, experienced cyclists will ignore the fatigue and blast it, knowing it is one of the best way up the hill.

On really steep climbs, equipment starts to make more of a difference. It sometimes helps just to have a super low gear (22/24 front and 36 in the back). You can only get so low and forward on the bike, close to the ground, even sacrificing your leverage on the cranks by being seated at full extension, just to maintain traction. Hovering over the top tube to pedal up and clear those super challenging climbs... I'd like to see someone do that. I think this inspires me to try other methods, in comparison to this, to see if this is just not a fluke or theory, and also catch it on vid to share the results. This is also one of the cases where I think bike industry marketing, "shorter chainstays make you climb better," seems to be suspicious, being contradicted by science, at least in terms of maximizing climbing traction on relatively extreme steeps--notice how motorized hill climber bikes (not sure what the proper name of them are) evolved to have super long chainstays, to get weight properly centered over where the tire contacts the tire, for traction, and not behind it. Seems the shorter stays gives more traction for flat ground and less traction the steeper it gets, compared to longer stays. Don't quote me on that, as I only really questioned it just now and really didn't look into it any deeper (also seems to be more prone to the front end lifting, easier to wheelie). See attached pics (borrowed from some random site found through google): my theory basically says to try to get weight centered as close to the black line as possible, which is centered on where the tread meets the ground. The red line just shows how poorly the weight would be centered if you chose to sit in the saddle in this circumstance, since having weight behind the black line (actually, the rear axle) causes the front end to be easily lofted. In the 2nd pic, the bike and rider are very well centered for maximum traction, between the rider and the bike balanced directly above where the tire contacts the ground. Excuse the poor accuracy of the lines, over where the tire contacts the ground, as they should be a tiny bit more forward.

Basically, traction is being broken by excessive acceleration and deceleration, just like how skidding and drifting corners or going slowly on off cambers breaks traction (accelerations are technically changes in both direction and speed). To increase traction, you need friction, which means putting more weight into the tire, where it contacts the ground--standing tall directs weight behind the wheel, increasing traction breaking forces, while being low to the ground and in front of the rear axle gets that weight closer to the tire's contact patch, which is then turned in extra traction.

The dummy proof way to handle this is to just try to go faster and maintain that faster speed, or force yourself to use a higher gear, and maintain a relatively high speed (7-10 mph), rather than do the 3-5 mph scoot (nearly walking speed), spinning and trying to "take a break" on the hill. Use an energy bar/gel or whatever if you have to--being fatigued is no fun and going fast and wanting to challenge and then crush hills is a better feeling than dreading them.

I kind of am intrigued by pimpbot's solution... I actually recall myself using such a technique, pulling myself forward during the powerful pedal stroke, and then pushing the bike forward with my upper body in between the pedal strokes, to keep the speed steady.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

i was having a similar problem, but mine was on a single-speed bike, but this might help- http://forums.mtbr.com/singlespeed/climbing-technique-whats-wrong-685675.html


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Varaxis said:


> It's more technique, knowledge, and fitness than equipment. Regarding rear wheel slips, it's about where your weight is spread out, how smooth your power output is, and your ability to maintain a steady speed. If you're putting it out in spurts, like mashing at low speed, basically accelerating and with sharp strokes and then slowing down between strokes due to the slope/gravity, and you're not putting weight over where the tire meets the ground (more weight/force on tire where it touches the ground = more friction), those sharp accelerations, which also counter the deceleration sharply, creates a force that overwhelms the tire's traction and causes the tire to spin.


That is why moving weight around works - very hard to make a completely smooth power output while doing a constant wheelie up a 25+% slope - to loading rear patch and lifting the front wheel up right at the moment of maximum torque applied helps. I also like my Rotor Q-ring granny rings for that.. Smoothes out torque (higher effective gear on downstroke) and reduces the duration of a dead spot.


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## delvermedic (Oct 10, 2011)

Wow, being this is my first thread on these forums I am kinda taken aback by all the useful responses (not a single lollrn2ridenoob). Im gonna try to digest alot of this information and give some of the techniques a try hopefully this weekend before I look into the expense of buying new tires and/or clipless and shoes. Im not real confident with the idea of switching to clipless yet anyway. Plus with a newborn and a wife who just finished a masters degree and is seeking employment funds for bike upgrades are cut off for a couple months . Thanks again everyone for the advice, this is definetly going to make me feel confident to bring up any other questions I have knowing that everyone is so helpful.

Delvermedic


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## TallRiderVA (Dec 19, 2011)

For me it was plain and simple: Getting clipless pedals, keeping my ass planted on the seat, leaning forward over my handlebars, getting as much momentum right before incline and just keep pushing until my thighs burn.


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## akiracornell (Jan 16, 2012)

Axe said:


> That is why moving weight around works - very hard to make a completely smooth power output while doing a constant wheelie up a 25+% slope - to loading rear patch and lifting the front wheel up right at the moment of maximum torque applied helps. I also like my Rotor Q-ring granny rings for that.. Smoothes out torque (higher effective gear on downstroke) and reduces the duration of a dead spot.


i think this is especially effective when climbing technical rocks and boulders, or also on any real short and or real tech and really steep sections. actually it seems a must to keep from slipping and to keep momentum up hike a bike stuff. i can only tackle this stuff when im fresh.


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## csledd281 (Aug 21, 2009)

marpilli said:


> Awhile back I had similar issues. This thread helped me better understand some of the factors in a climb.
> 
> The things I'm doing that seem to help (some previously mentioned by others):
> 1) Get in a low gear and stay there
> ...


I had the same issue last fall as I started tackling harder more hilly trails and these are the steps I used. I did lower my back tire pressure and found it helped with spinning a TON, except for the same trails have a lot of rocky down hills that I would flat my back tire on every single time so it was definitely not worth it. I think you have to find the right air pressure to help with those type of trails.


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## delvermedic (Oct 10, 2011)

Just wanted to drop a quick note to thank everyone again. Got to ride today and even though the trail was still a little damp from yesterday's rain I made every climb without one single slip or having to get off the bike and hike it up. Thigh's were on fire and I was breathing like a bellows for most of them but I climbed em all. Keeping my butt on the seat and focusing on a nice steady pedal rotation made a world of difference.

Thanks!


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## manabiker (Jul 18, 2010)

Good Job... about breathing, I've found that if I blow out all my are it works great, its hard to suck in air if your lungs are full, blowing out air forces you to fill your lungs with fresh air. keep up the good work.. Happy Trails


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

After I made my post, I actually busted my Chris King rear hub in my quest to climb steeper stuff. :lol:

What did was try to climb what locals call BFR (big f'ing rock), at Sycamore Canyon, Riverside, CA, at least the baby portion of it. It's something people only ride *down*. Needless to say, I stalled out right before my front tire made it to the crest. The moment I took weight off one foot off to balance my trackstand and try to give it final push, the other backpedaled almost a full revolution (due to rolling backwards) and quickly found its spot at 6 o'clock and I ejected, landing on the dirt at the base of the rock a few feet below (it's that steep). It's now a fixie. I also broke a spoke from trying to mount it in my lazy fashion, left foot on the pedal with a scoot, while swinging the right over, since the chain was getting slack up top and tight below and since it was in my granny gear (and because it no longer freewheeled), it got jammed into my wheel somehow, with a nice sounding crunch that turned everyone's heads.

Here's a vid to show the rock:






I was trying to climb the mid-height section, hoping my momentum would carry me through much of it. There's not really much of a transition though, so going in with a lot of speed takes a bit of skill.


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## akiracornell (Jan 16, 2012)

Varaxis said:


> After I made my post, I actually busted my Chris King rear hub in my quest to climb steeper stuff. :lol:
> 
> What did was try to climb what locals call BFR (big f'ing rock), at Sycamore Canyon, Riverside, CA, at least the baby portion of it. It's something people only ride *down*. Needless to say, I stalled out right before my front tire made it to the crest. The moment I took weight off one foot off to balance my trackstand and try to give it final push, the other backpedaled almost a full revolution (due to rolling backwards) and quickly found its spot at 6 o'clock and I ejected, landing on the dirt at the base of the rock a few feet below (it's that steep). It's now a fixie. I also broke a spoke from trying to mount it in my lazy fashion, left foot on the pedal with a scoot, while swinging the right over, since the chain was getting slack up top and tight below and since it was in my granny gear (and because it no longer freewheeled), it got jammed into my wheel somehow, with a nice sounding crunch that turned everyone's heads.
> 
> ...


gnarly, climbing that....that what i call commitment.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I blame the bike! Actually, everyone laughed at my futile attempt, since it was clearly obvious that there's virtually no chance of clearing it, climbing with a bike. Still, I wanted to see how far up I could make it and I really didn't see any risk involved. I exaggerated when I said my front wheel was "just" before the crest, maybe if I measured by the very front of the wheel, instead of where it touched the rock. More like I only fully cleared a little past halfway and only put in 1 attempt (which busted my bike anyways). :lol:

Anything taller than about 6' seems to be beyond my limit for steep rock faces. Something like this is considered easy to me to ride up, since it only takes some speed going in to get the front wheel onto the crest and maybe 2-3 pedal strokes to get the rest of the bike up:










Plus that kind of rock is super grippy, like sandpaper. I found that SB8s grip like mad on it, more than any other tire I've tried on rock. Makes me wonder if it's a great tire for Moab.

Oh, I tried hucking off the rock pictured above, with a hardtail, which didn't end well. Doesn't help that it quickly turns into an uphill off the edge of the pic and I basically land flat/uphill, on mushy soil. Ah, fun memories... I was a foolish noob back then. I'm still foolish, but not really a noob now. 






Sycamore Canyon (Huck Fail) from Varaxis on Vimeo.


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## RobinGB (Oct 23, 2011)

loosing traction on a 29er from my experience, your in too low of a gear or your to far forward and not keeping any weight on the rear tire. Its a bit of a balancing act between keeping your ass low and back but leaving into it enough to keep your front tire down.


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## DeucesWild (Jan 25, 2012)

Slow is smooth, Smooth is fast, and Fast is deadly


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