# Raw finishes



## AgentX (Jul 11, 2005)

Hi everyone--

How do you achieve a finish like this on a steel frame while protecting against oxidation?










Is it brushed then matte clearcoated or something?

Can brushing, shot-peening, ball-burnishing, bead-blasting, or some other process leave you with a frame that's bare metal but won't rust?

Can you chrome-plate, then brush, for a satin finish?

I'm just wildly speculating in the dark on the "how" of doing it, but am considering a look like this, if reasonably achievable, for my next steel mountain bike frame. (Mix of alloy tubes; 4130 in back, some other stuff the builder is choosing up front...)

Thanks!

-Mike


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Brushed finish in chrome can be done in the nickle plating layer and then finished with chromium layer , at least thats how we did it when I owned plating shop .


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

That to me looks like a glamour shot from a framebuilder. The tubes are straight up steel and the lug is polished stainless. It's an 'in the nude' shot before masking/painting.

Check out Rivendells (sp) site.

I run clear powder and it works perfect. Tiger Drylac.

-Schmitty-


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## AgentX (Jul 11, 2005)

Thanks! AZ, would chroming add any significant amount of weight to a frame relative to painting it?

Schmitty, any issues with the underlying steel darkening/bluing during the powdercoat baking? This is a big worry for the finisher I've been talking to... Does having the metal brushed or blasted prior to baking prevent this in any way?


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

It will darken a bit. If you take in a blasted frame, it will not look good. I get mine blasted, then scotchbrite the hell out of it. Sometimes I hit it with a bit of emory cloth before hand depending on what look I'm going for. You need to take it in a hair brighter than you want the final look to be. Type of scotchbrite, and how long you buff it will give you different looks. The TT tubes and 4130 I've done look alomost like Ti when I drop them off. Shows fingerprints like mad.

Here's one post powder.

Do some test tubes.


-Schmitty-


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Schmitty said:


> I run clear powder and it works perfect. Tiger Drylac.
> 
> -Schmitty-


What sort of real world, long term durability have you got out of straight clear over raw?


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

I really like that finish. A local shop is offering powder coat for bikes, I wonder if they do the clear stuff.

Drew


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Thylacine said:


> What sort of real world, long term durability have you got out of straight clear over raw?


Well, not that you'll believe me, but zero real world problems. No rust. No yellowing. That frame pictured is on it's 3rd season. Rarely clean my bikes, and sweat like a fat man in the Sahara. Stainless drops.

I have made outdoor furniture, prep/coating process the same, 5+ years outside, no problems.

Good prep+good powder+good application=zero problems.

-Schmitty-


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Just to be clear (haha), there's a million ways to screw up doing this. I happen to have a great pc're in town who's been at it many years, including bikes, and I'm a bit ocd on the whole clear finish. I had to cajole and prod the guys to do it 'my way'. They thought the only way was to blast and coat. I told them they had zero liability if it turned out crap. Now it's smooth sailing.

I've seen other guys who thought a clear would be cool come back with just nasty results.

-Schmitty-


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Schmitty said:


> Well, not that you'll believe me, but zero real world problems.
> 
> -Schmitty-


Why wouldn't I believe you? :skep:


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## AgentX (Jul 11, 2005)

The variables involved here have me seriously leaning towards dark emerald green again... 

Schmitty, that frame is brilliant.


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

@Schmitty: headbadge is awesome. Similar to the stainless laser cut headbadges of geekhouse in terms of presentation. 

So will the oxidizing or the heat colors at the tig welds disappear over time with just a clear powdercoat? I'm curious as I do like the clear over raw steel fashion.


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## smdubovsky (Apr 27, 2007)

illnacord said:


> So will the oxidizing or the heat colors at the tig welds disappear over time...


No.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

illnacord said:


> @Schmitty: headbadge is awesome. Similar to the stainless laser cut headbadges of geekhouse in terms of presentation.
> 
> So will the oxidizing or the heat colors at the tig welds disappear over time with just a clear powdercoat? I'm curious as I do like the clear over raw steel fashion.


I believe the Geekhouse badges are hand cut.. I know ANT's are, and they are basically the same.

My bikes are fillet, but any discoloration can be removed. I would suggest a light blast, then on with the hand Scotchbrite treatment (wear a mask by the way). But if you leave the coloration in the haz, no it will not go away with time.

-Schmitty-


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

For true RAW over TIG'd steel it takes allot of work , Schmitty had touched on the prep needed to do such a finish . 
I ship most of my bikes and handlebars out in Trans over raw colors and have been doing finishes like these since I worked a SCB way back in 98-2000 era .

If you plan on doing a raw or tinted raw finish over a tig'd frame you need to pre polish each tube before welding , then the bike must be cleaned with Acetone or a similar heavy solvent that will clean and evaporate . 
Then you pretty much have to spray the bike right after the solvent evaporates , there are several other steps to this process but I'm not letting the entire cat outta the bag here .
Try and try again until you come up with a process that works for you the builder is my suggestion !


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Evil4bc said:


> For true RAW over TIG'd steel it takes allot of work , Schmitty had touched on the prep needed to do such a finish .
> I ship most of my bikes and handlebars out in Trans over raw colors and have been ding finishes like these since I worked a SCB way back in 98-2000 era .
> 
> If you plan on doing a raw or tinted raw finish over a tig'd frame you need to pre polish each tube before welding , then the bike much be cleaned with Acetone or a similar heavy solvent that will clean and evaporate .
> ...


This guy speaks the truth.

Every powder shop doing any kind of business will shoot black and clear every day. The guys here are always booked two wks out, but since I know them pretty well, they let me know when the next clear batch is being shot, and they let me throw a frame in, so I know exactly when to give it the final rub down, drape in a clean sheet, put the dummy seat post in, race it down, pick it up a few hrs later. Oh yeah, install any decals as well, and I do my own masking of ht, bb, etc. I use powder proof decals, so just going clear saves a a second coat... less powder, less money. The cleanup on two coats of powder is a total pita. I've heard rumor that powder decals are getting scarce, and that clear paint doesn't hold up. For the moment, in my little world, I've got it figured out.

-Schmitty-


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

AgentX said:


> Thanks! AZ, would chroming add any significant amount of weight to a frame relative to painting it?
> 
> Schmitty, any issues with the underlying steel darkening/bluing during the powdercoat baking? This is a big worry for the finisher I've been talking to... Does having the metal brushed or blasted prior to baking prevent this in any way?


Chrome plating does not add significantly to the weight , the cost on the other hand will significantly lighten your wallet compared to powder coat .


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Chrome plating does not add significantly to the weight , the cost on the other hand will significantly lighten your wallet compared to powder coat .


I'm not so sure on the weight thing. Needs copper first then the chrome right? I'm sure it would weigh more than two coats of powder, which depending on how obsessed with weight you are, can really add up. The there's the 'masking' of the ht, bb, etc. Don't want to clean chrome out of there, but don't want to chip it at the interface either.... yuk.

The there's also the possible detrimental effects of plating in regards to tube/weld strength. Never messed with plating in regards to whole frames, so haven't sifted through all the variables.

-Schmitty-


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## AgentX (Jul 11, 2005)

Yeah, after doing some googling the other day, thoughts of satin chroming just melted right away.

Deep green trans powdercoat over brushed steel it is! This is a cool thread, though--thanks all for the great information. Would love to hear more varied experiences with this stuff...


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Very strange, a current customer of ours is getting the exact same thing. I'm trying to convince him to get the decals in brushed, and the rest of the frame media blasted, then trans clear.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> Very strange, a current customer of ours is getting the exact same thing. I'm trying to convince him to get the decals in brushed, and the rest of the frame media blasted, then trans clear.


Actually that sounds like a sweet finish.

After working on the mill and lathe I noticed if I'm finishing some 6061 and sand / polish in one direction then finish a different section 90 to the initial sand / polish it plays a trick with the light. Was curious if this would work on on a frame. Of course it would be a PITA for a frame to get to work right, but might be possible.


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## AgentX (Jul 11, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> Very strange, a current customer of ours is getting the exact same thing. I'm trying to convince him to get the decals in brushed, and the rest of the frame media blasted, then trans clear.


Bizarre coincidence, that.

You might have to be pretty persuasive...especially about the unpredictability of it all...but I have a hunch your customer is open to suggestions.


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## AgentX (Jul 11, 2005)

That's pretty damned nice looking. How is that achievable? Did they just use a liquid clear so that the tubes didn't darken during the heat of powdercoating? Any guesses as to the true longevity of that in terms of actually resisting corrosion?

I'm guessing maybe with the thick heavy BMX tubing and the general short lifespan of a BMX street frame, they just might not care...?


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

That looks like a ruster. Not powder best as I can tell.

These guys do it right:

https://www.curtisbikes.co.uk/frames/mtb/prostreet-main.jpg

-Schmitty-


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Someone should tell Curtis that lemon chewing gum is not an acceptable joining method.


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

Why all the hand wringing over a finish? Put a coat of paint on it & be done...it's a bike for heaven's sake!


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## AgentX (Jul 11, 2005)

jncarpenter said:


> Why all the hand wringing over a finish? Put a coat of paint on it & be done...it's a bike for heaven's sake!


b/c all the other details are fully sorted...and it's going to be a while, so this is the only thing left to fret over!


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

jncarpenter said:


> Why all the hand wringing over a finish? Put a coat of paint on it & be done...it's a bike for heaven's sake!


You're just sour because your Wolfy would look a million times better if finished clear!

-Schmitty-


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

Schmitty said:


> You're just sour because your Wolfy would look a million times better if finished clear!
> 
> -Schmitty-


LOL!


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

jncarpenter said:


> LOL!


Nice thread on that by the way... long like War and Peace!

-Schmitty-


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

FWIW, mo0se posted this thread in the SS forum about a frame he refinished with clear products from KG Coatings (Gun Kote stuff).


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

guitar ted just had a frame test done with this KG Coatings GunKote stuff. From the pictures he's posted, it look impressive. Very thin stuff. So thin it looks as if there's no need to chase threads. It appears as if its dipped, not sprayed, so you get protection all the way around the tube. No Frame saver needed. they have an ok range of colors, including clear, as well as finish options(matte, satin, gloss).


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

~martini~ said:


> guitar ted just had a frame test done with this KG Coatings GunKote stuff. From the pictures he's posted, it look impressive. Very thin stuff. So thin it looks as if there's no need to chase threads. It appears as if its dipped, not sprayed, so you get protection all the way around the tube. No Frame saver needed. they have an ok range of colors, including clear, as well as finish options(matte, satin, gloss).


Another fine Dupont pruduct. Pitty the fool who has to repair/weld a frame that has been treated with that sheot.

-Schmitty-


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

Schmitty said:


> Another fine Dupont pruduct. Pitty the fool who has to repair/weld a frame that has been treated with that sheot.
> 
> -Schmitty-


Why? It's too hard to remove? Or do you have to remove a bunch of it because it will kill you if it burns?


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

~martini~ said:


> guitar ted just had a frame test done with this KG Coatings GunKote stuff. From the pictures he's posted, it look impressive. Very thin stuff. So thin it looks as if there's no need to chase threads. It appears as if its dipped, not sprayed, so you get protection all the way around the tube. No Frame saver needed. they have an ok range of colors, including clear, as well as finish options(matte, satin, gloss).


??? The KG website says it's a spray application, so that wouldn't protect the inside of the tubes.


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

well, it IS a lubricant with a polymer for the color(or so I would guess). Removal for repair would be an issue to consider. But who are we kidding? None of your guys bikes ever break, right?  So you won't have to worry about that!

@ livewire - i was going off of the pictures on GT's sites. Coverage looked so good and consistent that I made the mistake of assuming its a dip. Thus far, only Ben's cycle in Mwke (Milwaukee bikes) is the only builder(Waterford in the end, really) to use it. I've only learned of it this week, so I'm still searching the KG site.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

Just use Reynolds 953 tubing. Then use the various scotchbrites.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

~martini~ said:


> well, it IS a lubricant with a polymer for the color(or so I would guess). Removal for repair would be an issue to consider. But who are we kidding? None of your guys bikes ever break, right?  So you won't have to worry about that!
> 
> @ livewire - i was going off of the pictures on GT's sites. Coverage looked so good and consistent that I made the mistake of assuming its a dip. Thus far, only Ben's cycle in Mwke (Milwaukee bikes) is the only builder(Waterford in the end, really) to use it. I've only learned of it this week, so I'm still searching the KG site.


You've been living in a cave. We were probably the first to use ceramic coatings about 4 years ago. This one is from earlier in the year.


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## CanOnlyRide (Oct 27, 2005)

Oxidation is a slow form of rusting. Aluminum oxidizes, steel just straight up rusts...

Im not sure that just clear over raw metal is the best idea. I know putting clear over bare Ti does not work well at all, it flakes off over time.


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

~martini~ said:


> well, it IS a lubricant with a polymer for the color(or so I would guess). Removal for repair would be an issue to consider. But who are we kidding? None of your guys bikes ever break, right?  So you won't have to worry about that!
> 
> @ livewire - i was going off of the pictures on GT's sites. Coverage looked so good and consistent that I made the mistake of assuming its a dip. Thus far, only Ben's cycle in Mwke (Milwaukee bikes) is the only builder(Waterford in the end, really) to use it. I've only learned of it this week, so I'm still searching the KG site.


Oh, ok. I thought you were equating dupont with nasty, deadly stuff like Imron and I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.
And yes, according to one of the reviews, the baked on stuff is a real b***h to get off...better do everything right the first time!:thumbsup:


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

Thylacine said:


> You've been living in a cave. We were probably the first to use ceramic coatings about 4 years ago. This one is from earlier in the year.


The stuff we're talking about here is PTFE and molybdenum based- is that the same thing?


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Live Wire said:


> Oh, ok. I thought you were equating dupont with nasty, deadly stuff like Imron and I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.
> And yes, according to one of the reviews, the baked on stuff is a real b***h to get off...better do everything right the first time!:thumbsup:


That's exactly what I'm saying re the ptfe products.

Last time I checked JP Weigle never had to settle for millions for poisoning whole communities.

-Schmitty-


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

Schmitty said:


> That's exactly what I'm saying re the ptfe products.
> 
> Last time I checked JP Weigle never had to settle for millions for poisoning whole communities.
> 
> -Schmitty-


That has absolutely _nothing_ to do with the toxicity of the chemical, it is only related to whether or not the manufacturer is responsibly handling their chemicals, dealing with spills, etc.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

boomn said:


> That has absolutely _nothing_ to do with the toxicity of the chemical, it is only related to whether or not the manufacturer is responsibly handling their chemicals, dealing with spills, etc.


I have to disagree. It *may* have absolutely nothing to do with the toxicity of the chemical. The facts are out there, go find them. Where do you want your money to go, and who do you want to support?

ptfe is very similar to non stick coatings.

-Schmitty-


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

Schmitty said:


> I have to disagree. It *may* have absolutely nothing to do with the toxicity of the chemical. The facts are out there, go find them. Where do you want your money to go, and who do you want to support?
> 
> ptfe is very similar to non stick coatings.
> 
> -Schmitty-


PTFE (also knownn as Teflon) is the most common non-stick coating. According to some quick research, it is an inert and non-toxic molecule. I also found that the Dupont settlement was over a different chemical that they used in manufacturing PTFE.

Now there may (or may not) be other toxic chemicals used in the KG product as additives, binders, etc to make it perform well, but I believe the same is true of standard wet paint


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Live Wire said:


> The stuff we're talking about here is PTFE and molybdenum based- is that the same thing?


None of the ceramics from the gun industry are PTFE 'based', they have it as an additive in some ranges.

The KG coatings Gun Kote is vastly inferior to the stuff we use, we tried it during our trials. There's massive amounts of P.T. Barnum shenanigans in the gun industry - have a look some of their forums to see what I'm talking about. Vast variances in quality and durability.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

boomn said:


> PTFE (also knownn as Teflon) is the most common non-stick coating. According to some quick research, it is an inert and non-toxic molecule. I also found that the Dupont settlement was over a different chemical that they used in manufacturing PTFE.
> 
> Now there may (or may not) be other toxic chemicals used in the KG product as additives, binders, etc to make it perform well, but I believe the same is true of standard wet paint


Until heated >500 degrees, ie welding. Dupont has settlements as long as your arm. For me, it matters not if they relate 'directly' to this product.

-Schmitty-


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Thylacine said:


> None of the ceramics from the gun industry are PTFE 'based', they have it as an additive in some ranges.
> 
> The KG coatings Gun Kote is vastly inferior to the stuff we use, we tried it during our trials. There's massive amounts of P.T. Barnum shenanigans in the gun industry - have a look some of their forums to see what I'm talking about. Vast variances in quality and durability.


Right.. there are two product types being dicussed here it seems... I believe 'ceramic' is exclusive from anything ptfe based. GunKote does have a number of both.

-Schmitty-


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