# Hey Old Dudes - Anyone try a Specialized Levo or eMTB?



## Rob997 (Jul 1, 2007)

At 56, my knees have been bothering me after those longer or steeper climbing efforts and normal weekly hours in the saddle (5-10). So I decided to demo an eMTB bike to see if this could be an alternative to prolonging my riding and reducing the stress/pain.

Well, I test rode a Specialized Levo over the weekend and got 5 solid hours on it. All I can say is crap!!! I now want (need?) one. The "assisted" watts certainly takes the strain off the knees and load off of the heart. However, you still get a great ride and work out...just not at or near max. 

Before you say no, you have to give it a go. This class 1 eMTB bike exceeded my expectations. It's a well built and rides nice.

Like I said in another forum, am I going to sell my 24lb Pivot 429SL for a 45lb eMTB bike? No way. Could I see myself with a well equipped Levo in the garage. Yep! 

Am I just being tempted by the latest and greatest innovation in the sport or am I embracing technology that assists us older dudes?:madman:

Thoughts?


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

How could it NOT be fun....it's way too easy! :skep: I happened across the Specialized Rep at the LBS a week or so ago and he was sporting a Turbo Levo. I stopped and chatted him up as I hadn't seen one before. He essentially "handed me the keys" and said "go for it" after a little run down on the 3 power levels. I started off in Sport (fastest) mode and took off. Mind you, this wasn't a dirt ride, just a huge lot. Yeah, I was blown away at the speed output for such a small amount of pedalling input and even at 54 years old, I'm calling bullsh*t on it. I tried all 3 levels for a bit. I appreciate that this will help someone in your situation with such a physical issue but I don't want that crap on my trails. It's not legal on our local network but there was initial talk that if you could prove your disability, there would be consideration given. Guys like yourself in need, I can deal with and respect. It's the "other" crowd that worries me and it's interaction on our multi-use trail. 

I'm a Specialized guy. As it turns out, every MTB I have owned has been a Specialized and now a road bike, too. I was not liking what I was hearing from this youngster Rep in that he was really seriously pimping this as the future of mtb....as far as telling a few of us "older" guys that "your friend will get one, your other friend will get one, then you'll have to buy one to keep up with your friends because they'll dump you..." BS. 

Sorry for the rant


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

In the words of Nancy Reagan, "Just say, No!"

I was talking about the Levo with a buddy of mine the other day. He was saying what a nice bike it is and how fun it is, etc., etc. (and I'm sure it is!). Then he said, "Climbing with it, I felt like I was cheating!"

That said it all to me.

By the way, for more, visit the e-bike forum.


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

Not for me. If I actually wanted a motorized bike (I don't), I would get a 'real' moto (aka dirt or trials bike) and ride it in the designated moto areas. Way more fun methinks. I think I will leave that until I am too old and feeble to ride a bike up a hill.


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## -Todd- (Jun 13, 2011)

How about a 2 hour self propelled ride as opposed to a 5 hour assisted ride?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

E-bikes? Burn them. All of them.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

When I mountain bike, I mountain bike.

When I dirt bike, I dirt bike.

Never the twain shall meet.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Screw that.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

Oh My Sack! said:


> Guys like yourself in need, I can deal with and respect. It's the "other" crowd that worries me and it's interaction on our multi-use trail.


You mean that everyone that gets a "waiver" to be able to ride on the trails won't be legit? Ha-ha!! If the amount of people that abuse the handicap placard and medical marijuana program is any indication, the waiver process will be a complete joke anyway.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I agree. I loved riding dirt bikes 40 years ago and some time after I turn 70 I may get too beat up to ride trails. If that happens, I'll move on to dirt bikes again and ride where it's appropriate to ride them.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Let's keep mountain biking human powered, we need the exercise. Ebikes are motor powered, which is fine, but don't do it on the mtb trails, that's disrespectful and bogus. 

I'm 65, and my knees aren't the best either.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

> I'm a Specialized guy. As it turns out, every MTB I have owned has been a Specialized and now a road bike, too. I was not liking what I was hearing from this youngster Rep in that he was really seriously pimping this as the future of mtb....as far as telling a few of us "older" guys that "your friend will get one, your other friend will get one, then you'll have to buy one to keep up with your friends because they'll dump you..." BS.


Yeah, we saw the same thing from our Specialized rep at a recent (multi-brand) Demo. He was even implying (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) that it was ok to ride trails that were closed to all forms of motorized use, including E-bikes because you wouldn't get caught. *******. I'm most definitely NOT a Specialized guy and I didn't really need another reason to not spend any money on anything sporting the big red S but this is a real good one. It's really disappointing to see a local shop that I have done business with, where the owner and manager (father and son) are cool guys, pushing these mopeds as hard as anyone (presumably under pressure from corporate) It really sucks but I won't spend another dime there unless they back off on these things.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Move this threaf to ebike, no need to rehash this stuff over here yet again...


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Rob997 said:


> At 56, my knees have been bothering me after those longer or steeper climbing efforts and normal weekly hours in the saddle (5-10). So I decided to demo an eMTB bike to see if this could be an alternative to prolonging my riding and reducing the stress/pain.
> 
> Well, I test rode a Specialized Levo over the weekend and got 5 solid hours on it. All I can say is crap!!! I now want (need?) one. The "assisted" watts certainly takes the strain off the knees and load off of the heart. However, you still get a great ride and work out...just not at or near max.
> 
> ...


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

Full disclosure: I work part time at a bike shop that sells Specialized and Cannondale bikes.

My only real concern is whether or not they might negatively impact trail access. And for me, that is a BIG concern. I think they should be classified separately from purely pedal powered bikes as far as the law and access to trails are concerned so they can be considered on their own faults and merits, and ruled on accordingly. However, after that, I'm not having any saddle rash because someone didn't work as hard to climb a hill. 

I have tried a number of e-bikes here and there (probably 10 or less, and all in areas where they are legal to ride), including the Turbo Levo. There are places they are faster, and places they are slower. They make me climb like a superhero, and their descending prowess varies from "pretty good", to "I can't wait to get off of this thing." I can still get quite a workout riding one, but would cover more miles. I have briefly rode some of the latest FS e-bikes, and the Levo (which I got to wring out on the trail pretty good) was easily my personal favorite, but the competition is improving.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

I've ridden eBikes and liked it.

There, I've said it. 

I whooped up the hills grinning from ear to ear.

I can think of only one other thing that would make me feel 18 again.

I'm definitely going to buy an eBike when I'm old and frail. 

It will be a stepped programme. First will be gears, then as I get frailer, suspension, and ultimately the eBike. 

Hopefully that will take me through to 90. There's still mountain tracks out there I haven't found.


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## jp08865 (Aug 12, 2014)

NO thank you, personally not interested in 'motor' bikes.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Bikes aren't a religion or ideology.

The damage that gets done to trails is usually caused by high speeds, and that more often occurs on downhills. I very much doubt an eBike is going to be doing any more damage to the trail than a full on downhill bike.

An eBike is around 20 lbs heavier than an ordinary mtb, and it's handling can therefore never be as good. Any rider good enough to be able to ride one on XC terrain is likely to prefer a light proper mtb.

They are used on the trails around where I live as of right, and I never see them on what I would call the interesting bits, more on the tame stuff - very much what you'd expect for something that is going to be bought by someone who hasn't the capacity to ride a mtb.

I am of course talking about the assist type ebike, where power is only applied when the rider is pedalling. The moment there is a throttle, then that's a motorbike IMO.

But if we are going to get a full blown anti-technology movement going, I'd happily see gears and suspension banned as well, because it's downhill speed on soft trails that does the damage, and those technologies are the enablers. Even worse are the people who take uplifts to ride downhills - that's assistive technology too.


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

Velobike said:


> But if we are going to get a full blown anti-technology movement going, I'd happily see gears and suspension banned as well, because it's downhill speed on soft trails that does the damage, and those technologies are the enablers. Even worse are the people who take uplifts to ride downhills - that's assistive technology too.


Oooo, now you've stepped in it! Gravity is the ultimate enabler of downhill speed, ban it too!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

How about we keep the technology human powered? When you add a motor you are in the realm of motorized technology. Arguing that it doesn't go very fast misses the point. I would argue that mixing motorized and human powered activities is asking for conflicts.


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## fatcat (Mar 11, 2006)

Velobike said:


> Bikes aren't a religion or ideology.
> 
> The damage that gets done to trails is usually caused by high speeds, and that more often occurs on downhills. I very much doubt an eBike is going to be doing any more damage to the trail than a full on downhill bike.


I agree, as long as they don't go faster downhill or on the straights than a conventional bike, I'm all for it. Excessive speed and rear brake slides on corners are the worst for a trail, on a ebike, motorcycle or mountain bike.
Have you ever seen a singletrack after 30 "group riders" been barreling through all
at once? Its like a gang bang on a poor singletrack. I dont think one or 2 ebikes
ridden are going to tear up the joint unless its a ebike 30 member group ride going full bore yelling Strava.

Here I am busting my ass doing trail work. Stupid helmet's on because I forgot a hat and the mosquitoes were relentless buzzing on my head and face. I dont bust my ass volunteering to do trail work so puds can ruin our singletrack by trying to break the speed record.


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## jsalas2 (Nov 29, 2008)

joining thread


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

Jack Singletrack an old ripper from way back in the day purchased one of the first assisted bikes I had ever seen (~2 years ago). The guy has skills ah plenty but life took its toll on old Jacks endurance was long gone and the heavy beer lifting was not helping.

Long story short, the assisted bike put him right smack in the front of the pack again and all was great once again. 

Well, until his battery dies.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

My wife has never been a strong rider, she has good bike handling skills, is generally able to handle the downs, but she just can't climb well or handle long rides with a lot of pedaling.

I was hauling her around on a tandem for the past six years, it was fun in it's own way, but more often than not it was a chore for me; the novelty wore thin.

So over the past couple years she rode with me less and less, from once a week on the tandem to maybe once a month on her bike.

Enter the Levo... she now rides with me twice a week, she asks me if I want to go riding, she even chooses to ride the steep mountain behind our house while I hike.

Game changer.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Velobike said:


> But if we are going to get a full blown anti-technology movement going, I'd happily see gears and suspension banned as well, because it's downhill speed on soft trails that does the damage, and those technologies are the enablers. Even worse are the people who take uplifts to ride downhills - that's assistive technology too.


Take it step further, just ban wheels all together, make folks carry their bikes, now that's the essence of a true biker.

Where we live, there are so few mountain bikers that moto riders are the trail builders by default.

Better moto trails than no trails.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Not legal where I ride( MA). Old and not as fast as you once were? Welcome to life and HTFU.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to leeboh again.


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## panchosdad (Sep 21, 2008)

You must not share trails with motorized users. Most of our FS trails are open to motors anyway, so e-bikes are a non issue. Non motorized trails, no motors, pretty simple.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Rob997 said:


> Am I just being tempted by the latest and greatest innovation in the sport or am I embracing technology that assists us older dudes?:madman:
> 
> Thoughts?


I don't have any big issue with e-bikes as long as people stop trying to say they're an 'innovation in the sport' of mountain biking.

E-bikes are not mountain bikes. They are something new and separate. The motor makes this so. Attempting to blur this line opens up an huge and nasty can of worms for real bike access; if you care about mountain biking, help make sure that line stays crystal clear.

Repeat after me: "Mountain bikes don't have motors".


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> I don't have any big issue with e-bikes as long as people stop trying to say they're an 'innovation in the sport' of mountain biking.
> 
> E-bikes are not mountain bikes. They are something new and separate. The motor makes this so. Attempting to blur this line opens up an huge and nasty can of worms for real bike access; if you care about mountain biking, help make sure that line stays crystal clear.
> 
> Repeat after me: "Mountain bikes don't have motors".


This is the best summary of e-bikes vs Mountain Bikes I have every read. I feel exactly the same way!


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## saildesign (Aug 10, 2006)

bsieb said:


> Let's keep mountain biking human powered, we need the exercise. Ebikes are motor powered, which is fine, but don't do it on the mtb trails, that's disrespectful and bogus.
> 
> I'm 65, and my knees aren't the best either.


Yup! Only 61 here, and the knees are not ideal, but bicycling is human-powered. Especially off-road. If I get too decrepit to carry on, I shall look back on many happy years of the wheels spinning on dirt, and ride solely on the road.

When THAT is no longer possible, I shall look up at the daisy roots and ponder my time spent above them.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I'm 54 and have ridden a Levo, cool bike. If I was interested in an electric dirt bike though, for almost half the price you could build one with 14x the power at @ the same weight. Which is what I expect other people who like to go fast to decide as well. Hell, legal emtbs can have 3x the power they have now, so basing future projections of speed and trail impact on the current 250w bikes is a fantasy.

Age isn't a disability, lack of fitness or skill isn't either. The personal desire to ride a motorized bike on non motorized trails while putting an entire user groups access to those same trails at risk is simply entitlement. I'll ride mountain bikes as long as I am able and enjoy it, I fully expect to transition down to only those trails I'm capable of as I lose fitness and ability, to ride the road and hike more. Big deal.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

leeboh said:


> Old and not as fast as you once were? Welcome to life and HTFU.


Should be mandatory reading.


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

Can't shake the idea that e-bikes are just buying your way to the top of the mountain. Yes the argument can be many of the advances and top shelf kit are also buying your way to the top of the hill faster, BUT, no matter how much you spend on your ride you still have to pedal it.

Overweight? Don't stop eating, buy an e-bike.
Don't have the time to get stronger? Get an e-bike.
Getting older but want to ride at the front? Get an e-bike.
On and on and on..

The high cost makes them a novelty now but as used ones start being available and lower price ones come out and John Q clueless Public gits himself one of these so he can ride those hard trails these things are going to be trouble we don't need.



Nurse Ben said:


> My wife has never been a strong rider, she has good bike handling skills, is generally able to handle the downs, but she just can't climb well or handle long rides with a lot of pedaling.............Enter the Levo... she now rides with me twice a week, she asks me if I want to go riding, she even chooses to ride the steep mountain behind our house while I hike.
> 
> Game changer.


Ben, can you explain further? Your wife rides the Levo while you hike? Trying to imagine how that's any fun... she rides at hiking pace, or she rides up and down the trail, or what? You're a skilled mechanic obviously, you aren't maybe figuring out how to kick that Levo up a notch or 3? Stock sucks no matter what it is..


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

azjeff said:


> The high cost makes them a novelty now but as used ones start being available and lower price ones come out and John Q clueless Public gits himself one of these so he can ride those hard trails these things are going to be trouble we don't need.


The price of entry for a decent mtb with a motor is coming down already:
Luna Giant BBSHD Full Suspension Ebike - Luna Cycle

You have to keep in mind that gram counting and the expense that goes with it, is a waste of money with an ebike. So, a good frame with reliable mid level components is all most people would ever need. Who cares if it weighs 4-5 lbs more? It's not like you have to pedal harder.

Batteries are the most costly part of the system as well, with all the money being poured into battery tech we'll see lower prices in the future and eventually, better performance.

https://electrek.co/2016/07/24/tesla-gigafactory-picture-shows-construction-double-size/

And, agreed, used ones will go cheap. Batteries only have X amount of cycles on them and a limited shelf life, so used bikes with used batteries will be hard to sell at a premium.

https://electricbikereview.com/forum/threads/life-span-of-an-ebike.1274/page-1


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## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

Velobike said:


> Bikes aren't a religion or ideology.
> 
> The damage that gets done to trails is usually caused by high speeds, and that more often occurs on downhills. I very much doubt an eBike is going to be doing any more damage to the trail than a full on downhill bike.
> 
> ...


They may not go faster but they can go longer/more laps. As a regular at the local trail maintenance days this is what concerns me.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

There's so many of you who deserve pos. rep, but I must spread it around before pos. repping you again.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

I said this elsewhere on the site and I don't think this perspective has been covered anywhere (yet) in this thread:

"I like the “motorized / non-motorized “ distinction as a limiter on public lands. I also like the “non-mechanized travel in wilderness” rule. From a land and wildlife management perspective it’s about controlling the amount of human activity in fragile or rare ecosystems. Motors make it easier to encroach into remote areas. Mountain bikes make it easier to encroach into wilderness areas. If you make it harder or more time consuming for joe-public to get into the backcountry, the more effectively it can be managed. A current issue facing our local National Forest is the effort to close some roads and long-used but illegal routes for resource management reasons. Numerous comments have been made at the open meetings with the USFS and in local papers about the publics right of access, but what they're really arguing for is their right to drive anywhere. I see a similar theme here with motor-assisted bicycles, the "I'm no longer able to do it without a motor but I deserve the right to still be there so let me use my motor-assist bike to get there" argument. I don't think it's an inherent right to be able to get where you once did just because you age out of it. I realize I've aged out of some of my favorite backcountry epics, but I've made it a priority to find value in what I can still do (smaller incursions into the wilds). I encourage all to think about the bigger picture and not make it just about "you" -- it should be about the forests, wild life, and conservation. Okay, maybe I'm the one being selfish now, because I'm pretty sure that allowing motor-assists on bikes to access all that you can on a regular bike will just degrade our precious resources faster and I want my son, and then his son or daughter, to have the same opportunity to experience quality backcountry."


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

I didn't try riding a Levo but I did try lifting one. Ouch.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

azjeff said:


> Can't shake the idea that e-bikes are just buying your way to the top of the mountain. Yes the argument can be many of the advances and top shelf kit are also buying your way to the top of the hill faster, BUT, no matter how much you spend on your ride you still have to pedal it.
> 
> Overweight? Don't stop eating, buy an e-bike.
> Don't have the time to get stronger? Get an e-bike.
> ...


Do you snowski or snowboard? How do you get up the hill?

Do you walk to work or ride a bike to work? Isn't using a car cheating?

It's all in how you couch the idea of "assisted".

I once asked a "wealthy someone" about the public assistance they receive. Well they were right offended that I would suggest that they received any public assistance.

They didn't understsnd my meaning when I asked how they could afford to pay for all the roads they used.

It's not that we can't do it without assistance, but that having the assistance makes it doable.

My wife never really enjoyed mountain biking because it was not tolerable. But with assistance she can tolerate the uphill, which gets her to a place where she csn enjoy the downhill.

If i had to guesstimate, I'd say that she expends 10-20% of the energy climbing a hill on the Levo that I expend climbing unassisted. But, now she's riding at least once a week whereas before her riding had dwindled to once every few months.

The best part for her is that she enjoys the riding.

The priceless part is having her ride with me to places she'd never reach on her own power.

It makes me wonder if there was a similar hubub when they added gears and brakes to bicycles


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

The only snow sports I've done as an adult are xc skiing and snowshoeing. 

Getting to work isn't even an apples/oranges example. 

Ben, the big spoiler in the gears,suspension argument is the electric motor. It's no longer a human powered contrivance. Just can't argue it away. It's great that you and your wife are enjoying more time together on the bikes but looking past the personal level e-mtbs will surely lead to conflicts we don't have now and don't need.

The talking point about ebikes bringing more people into the sport is BS. After the newness and coolness wears off where does it lead? Does it lead to more fitness and a desire to get away from the magic assist? I bet not. It leads to wanting to go further and faster and that's easily done with a credit card and a shop specializing in hot rodding them, and that leads to even more user conflict.

You haven't mentioned if you've figured out how to kick it up a bit with the Levo...don't say you don't want to !!!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

azjeff said:


> The only snow sports I've done as an adult are xc skiing and snowshoeing.
> 
> Getting to work isn't even an apples/oranges example.
> 
> ...


You're really overthinking this, ebikes are simply an option for folks who don't have the fitness to ride what they want to ride, either because they're older, injured, disabled, or because they're just not that strong (my wife).

Today we rode Mad River out of Entiat, twelve miles round trip, not terribly hard, but the terrain and soils make it challenging. I can ride it fine, but my wife could never ride it without assist. She was tired at the end of the ride, she had one crash, otherwise it was uneventful. She used level one most of the ride as it was too technical for a higher level.

Everything we do in life is assisted, from the use of a motor vehicle to get to work to the trash truck that picks up the garbage. Don't kid yourself, we are not colonists in the new world.

and no, I have zero interest in riding pedal assist. I'm a strong rider, I like to ride fast, carve turns, catch air, and ebikes are too heavy and slow.

But having my wife on an ebike has been a real boon for our date rides 

Have you heard the story on NPR about how humans didn't discover color until they could make it? Blue was the last color "discovered " because it is uncommon in nature and hard to create artificially.

Just because someone has discovered something you don't appreciate, doesn't make it inherently bad. Perhaps you need more time before you see the "color"?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> It makes me wonder if there was a similar hubub when they added gears and brakes to bicycles


No, because there is a philosophical difference that is as clear as the color blue to some people, yet still invisible to others. It's true that we live in a world where electrically powered conveniences permeate nearly every aspect of our lives, which is why sanctuaries that are void of such "conveniences" are so vital.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> You're really overthinking this, ebikes are simply an option for folks who don't have the fitness to ride what they want to ride, either because they're older, injured, disabled, or because they're just not that strong (my wife).


You're really overthinking this. No one really cares if or why your wife uses an electrically powered bicycle. What most of us here care about is that anyone using a bike with an electric motor stick to trails and roads that allow motorized vehicles and stay off trails that are closed to motor vehicles. We all are on the page of not wanting motorized bicycles screwing up trail access through a public relations disaster, and some are concerned about the impact of motorized bikes on trails and wild lands. No hackles risen or f***S given for using an ebike, just don't pretend it's a nonmotorized vehicle.

And by the way, the snow sports analogy is appropriate for this situation. I live in the mountains where we have a lift served ski area (great fun, use it often) and some awesome backcountry skiing/boarding where snowmobiles/snowcats are banned. There, turns are earned by skinning up and powering up on your own. In case I'm not being clear, the ski-area with lifts is akin to your e-life and the backcountry skiing via skins is akin to your standard pedal bike -- makes sense to me. YMMV


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Yes, this thread should have been moved.

Sorry OP, you asked a good question, it's just too much of a hot button topic to have a general discussion without people puffing chests and saber rattling..

See the ebike forum for more info.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I don't think electric bikes are cheating and any old dudes who want one should buy one and ride the snot out of it wherever it's legal to do so.


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## azjeff (Jun 3, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't think electric bikes are cheating and any old dudes who want one should buy one and ride the snot out of it wherever it's legal to do so.


That's it exactly. Ben's wife isn't going to be the problem we're concerned about unless she rides on non-motorized trails.


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