# Teaching a girl to shift (x-post General, sort of)



## k2biker (Jan 13, 2004)

Okay, so I posted a question on the General forum hoping for some sensible advise, but that didn't work so I'm posting it here. (here's the orginal post 
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=2468805&posted=1#post2468805).

I have an 11yo old niece who loves riding her bike and thinks it's cool to go ride with me. Thus, I take her! I feel it's better to positively reinforce bike riding instead of getting onto her about being a bit chubby (lke my mom does). All that does is make her eat more. Anyway, she has a 20" bike with Grip Shift and a sussy fork. She does really well off road and is smart about what obstacles she feels she can ride and those she knows she can't. If she sees me go over / through something, she's more comfortable about it, but not with everything. I want to see her do well with this sport becuase it's something that she really loves and gives us time to bond. My other nieces are into other things which we support too. I digress....

*The problems:*
1. She won't let me adjust the seat becuase she's scared of being too high off the ground. 
2. She won't shift gears. I try explaining to her the rationale behind having gears and how to use them but she'd rather keep it in a low gear and spin at some wickedly high rate while trying to outrun me! It's quite a sight with knees flailing in the air and her sitting so low.

*Questions*: 
1. How do I get her to understand that we need to raise the seat? 
2. How do I help her understand how / why to shift gears?

I've received some good feedback on the SORBA forum about riding behind her and telling her when to shift and such, but I know there's more knowledge out there. I figure a girl is a girl, no matter the age and most girls have similar fears with speed and being off the ground. I guess I'm hoping that some of you have experienced these same things and may have some input.

Thanks in advance! (and please, let's not get into that I came to the WL for intelligence. We all know girls think more deeply about things than boys....well, at least I know that. Most guys haven't figured it out yet! I'm liable to lose some man points for things said above, but I'm okay with that).

~Charles


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## dHarriet (Sep 26, 2005)

only advice i can give you is to teach her on pavement and then take it off road. when she's worried about obstacles and such, she wants to be in her comfort zone...so first get her comfortable with her seat being higher...then teach her about shifting...and how a higher gear will actually allow her to go faster....and then take it off road!

and above all else...be patient and have fun!


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## VT Mtbkr (Jan 19, 2004)

I would second the road shifting recommendation. I went out with a women a couple of months ago who was a roadie and had just gotten a mountain bike and had no idea how or when to shift. My recommendation was 
A. To leave the bike in middle ring (ie leave your left hand alone)
B. Learn to shift with the right hand first and after mastering that move on to learning what the left hand can do.

Explain things very simply..ie left hand/right hand. Women normally don't care about the mechanics of what is happening...it's more of a trial and error experiance. 

Although coming from the road she obviously knew what shifting was about but she was too worried about the trail obstacles to figure it out while riding. I told her to practice on the road a lot and figure out the gearing while she wasn't worried about the trail.


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## jcbikeski (Nov 26, 2005)

Set her up in a medium gear and slightly low seat on the road and simply tell her that when she's ready you can help her have more fun by making riding even easier. Tell her that if she ever feels something too hard or uncomfortable (like spinning too fast) to not be afraid to just ask about it. When she does finally ask only give one suggestion at a time and tell her there's more when she's ready. When she is ready, regarding seat height, have her test with the seat VERY low to see how it makes things harder -- experiences that might make her trust more that the height really does make a difference.


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## taikuodo (Jul 3, 2006)

weld the seatpost on a singlespeed bike


just kidding =D


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Another response from me*



k2biker said:


> I have an 11yo old niece who loves riding her bike and thinks it's cool to go ride with me. she has a 20" bike with Grip Shift and a sussy fork.
> She does really well off road and is smart about what obstacles she feels she can ride and those she knows she can't.
> *The problems:*
> 1. She won't let me adjust the seat becuase she's scared of being too high off the ground.
> ...


Well, I thought gripshifts would help - but she will have to see the value in shifting for herself. I would get ahead (wearing a mirror to keep track) and run the speed up to where you start to lose her, then slow down. Basically give her a reason to want to go faster, kinda like "nyaah, nyaah - can't catch me" but in a fun way.

Seat height - my daughter (now nearly 10) had the same idea of wanting to be able to put both feet on the ground while seated. I talked with her about it - how it made pedalling much easier to let your legs extend, but the fear was still there. Then one day we were cranking up a local hill and she complained that her legs were hurting, and I reminded her of how things would work better if the seat were adjusted "properly". She let me adjust the seat, I gave her a push to get started up the hill, and away she went. Once she knew the difference, she adjusted. She even crashed (very well, I might add) the other day - got going too fast, saw there was loose sand in the corner, altered her line to keep traction but went wide and tagged a bush (non pointy type thankfully) then fell over into the bush. I was very concerned, but no real damage, no tears, and a thoughtful comment about watching her speed down hills a bit better. Now we're talking about shifting your weight for emergency braking.


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## taikuodo (Jul 3, 2006)

Wow, I wish I had parents that could teach me technical stuff on a mountain bike =]


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Just ask*



taikuodo said:


> Wow, I wish I had parents that could teach me technical stuff on a mountain bike =]


Tell folks where you are, and maybe somebody will "adopt" you. We all like having more riding buddies!


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## venus1 (Aug 4, 2006)

Gees, at that age I was working the gears like a pro. Accept that she may not be made for mtn biking. She obviously has no concept of what gears mean. This was intuitive to me at an early age. In 3rd grade I had a Huffy 3-speed. Maybe she has no need for speed in her DNA.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

having worked with my two boys, sometimes kids just are obstinate because they are kids. I never pushed the proper way to do things. I would set an example and then only offer a suggestion when they complained: "my knees hurt" or "it's too hard to pedal up hill". You might wait for that kind of opportunity, a teachable moment, then they seem to be much more open to "getting it"

Formica


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## SuperKat (Mar 27, 2005)

*How To Get A RIDER to Shift.....maybe?*

I don't understand why this is being presented as a female specific problem. It sounds to me like a rider with a lack of confidence. The fact that she's a girl seems irrelevant to me. 
Sorry.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

My friend sheryl has only confessed to taking my advice to SHIFT once... she shifted one cog over and then left it there. She might as well be on a singlespeed given her disdain for shifting, even though her old bike actually has 18 gears. The bike I'm building her currently only has 7 speeds as a result, and its also about 16 pounds lighter than her current klunker.


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## k2biker (Jan 13, 2004)

SuperKat7 said:


> I don't understand why this is being presented as a female specific problem. It sounds to me like a rider with a lack of confidence. The fact that she's a girl seems irrelevant to me.
> Sorry.


SK~
I posted this here because I know girls think differently than guys. My guy friends are all saying "well, just tell her to shift when she goes up a hill or wants to go faster" and I know that not all folks want to go faster. I DO know that girls tend to have more of a concern about crashing that do boys and I was hoping to get some insight into THAT which might help my plight. I'm seriously not trying to say that girls are inferior or anything like that so please don't try to miscontrue this. My sister and her husband do not work with the kids on their sports. They have 4 children, one of which is severely handicapped so time is limited with each of the others. I don't agree with it, but I don't have kids and am not married so in their minds,I don't understand. Thus, I try to do what I can to support the kids in their endevours. It just so happens that the eldest likes her bike and loves that it resembles mine b/c she thinks mountain biking is cool, thus I am cool. Something I know won't last long!

My mom shares the same fears as my niece and yelled at me today for even thinking of trying to change the way my niece rides her bike. My sister, you guessed it -- same fears of not being able to touch the ground and going too fast. HOWEVER, my niece likes going fast she just doesn't get the shifting thing. With boys, it's easy -- "hey you wanna go fast?" "yeaaaa!!!!" "Then shift!" and they do.

Now I know that not all girls share these fears so please, don't try to make me feel like a caveman moron just becuase you personally don't. I'm looking for some helpful advise, and am not trying to get into a battle of the sexes. Yes, I know there are awesome DH and freeriders that are girls and they love to go fast. I use them as inspiration to my niece so she can get excited about the sport -- and she does!

Anyway, I appreciate the input and we'll see tomorrow how good of a teacher I can be now that I'm armed with new insight!

Thanks!


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## venus1 (Aug 4, 2006)

k2biker said:


> SK~
> Now I know that not all girls share these fears so please, don't try to make me feel like a caveman moron just becuase you personally don't.
> Thanks!


Sorry if I seemed like a jerk. My need for speed & interest in mechanical devices was obvious at an early age & supported by my parents. My dad threw a football w/ me as soon as I could walk. We built soapbox cars together & I was driving in the 5th grade. I guess Dad wanted a boy. Regardless, he always told me I could be an astronaut if I wanted. I shift gears smooth as glass in a Ferrari or on a mtn bike like I was born there. I guess not every girl has natural talent in boy sports. Oh well, screw that. Work w/ her to build physical skills. She may surprise you in the end.


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## Tass Over Teakettle (Jul 11, 2006)

K2 -
Keep at it, and as she gains confidence, it will be easier for her to concentrate on something besides pedaling and trying to stay upright. Sometimes, that's all kids can handle at first. My 10 yr old just got her first gear bike this summer and is still getting the hang of it as well. I've found the smooth gentle grades are easiest for her to get the feel for how a gear change will change the pedal feel. 

Not all of us are natural athletes or can shift "smooth as glass" in our ferraris. So don't give up on her - everything in life has a learning curve - but don't let her mom's or your mom's fears be projected onto her either. (that happens ALOT)

Screw the "boy sports" thing too. If she enjoys it, then it is HER sport - and who gives a crap how good at it she is - as long as she is having fun and getting exercise.

Kudos to you for spending time w/ her, encouraging her to be active, and letting her learn at her own pace. You must be an Awesome Uncle


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

k2biker said:


> 1. She won't let me adjust the seat becuase she's scared of being too high off the ground.
> 2. She won't shift gears. I try explaining to her the rationale behind having gears and how to use them but she'd rather keep it in a low gear and spin at some wickedly high rate while trying to outrun me! It's quite a sight with knees flailing in the air and her sitting so low.
> 
> *Questions*:
> ...


How about taking a little video clip of her with a digital camera? Bring one along on a ride and take clips of her doing fun things (obstacles) but also take a clip of her spinning at crazy high cadence with the knees all over. Maybe that visual will help her "get it".

She may have a template in her head already however from BMXers - I see kids cruising all the time down the street on teeny bikes, one gear and the seat very low. Perhaps that is her frame of reference and she doesn't see anything wrong with it.


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## Dantley (Feb 6, 2004)

Charles,
It's great you are taking an interest in your niece. After coaching young women for 12 years I can share some things with you. Her real fear is probably fear of failure so just make sure she is in situations on the bike where she can succeed. As long as she is riding and having fun without pressure she will continue to ride which in the end is the main goal. As she becomes more comfortable on the bike she will shift just let her be the one to decide when that will be. She is a kid and on her way to becoming a young woman, let her make her own choices. In the long run she will become a stronger person if she makes her own decisions. Riding a bike is a good way to learn about decisions and consequences. Congratulations on sharing an interest with your niece and have fun!


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*It is a mistake to think*

that men and women go about learning this sport in the same way. As much as one might wish to deny this to emphisize the ultimate capability of women they do respond differently to limits and methods. There is no shame in that. It is what it is.

The woman who teaches herself this sport and ends up embracing it is rare, indeed, whether the women in this Forum can accept it or not. To induce the broader range of women to do this sport requires a special perspective; a set of expectations and comprehensive approximations very different from men. Males have a more natural tendancy to move aggressively though space reguardless of which gender walks first at infancy. "Come on, dudes, let's go!" gets many boys through a tough section. Not so with most girls.

When I think of starting a group of boys riding you have to do very little to gather an interested group. After that it is like turning over a box of puppies and you do your best to keep them going in the same direction. With girls it is a very differernt thing. It takes much more effort to get a bunch of girls interested in this sport and then even more to keep them involved.

I wonder if saying that girls require even more effort than boys fails to appreciate the natural bias that athletic training efforts have to engage male aggression. Would that the world were otherwise and feminine methods were predominant it might look quite different. There is a statement about gender and world order in there, for sure, but that is a different forum. Having said that, though, girls do take a lot more energy to integrate into this sport. A lot.

In the mean time it is best to remember that teaching is a skill in itself and few people are any good at it. At bottom it helps to understand the cognitive and physical steps neccessitated for a behavior and to see which apply to each student. "Come on, let's go" blows by a lot of steps. That might be a key.


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## dHarriet (Sep 26, 2005)

fascinating forray into the female psyche Mike. perhaps you should consider three factors i have encountered when introducing women to the sport of mountain biking:

1 - women are told they are not tough enough to handle it. sometimes this is very subtle, and comes in the form of a joke or riding 'advice', and sometimes it's a flat out statement. and please don't tell me it's not true, because i have experienced it personally.

2 - most women are introduced to the sport by significant others. these boys either overwhelm these girls with way too much technical information all at once, or tell them to 'go fast and don't fall'. neither of these techniques are very successful. and guess what happens? they don't go fast, and they fall, and they get discouraged. they are probably more easily discouraged than the average entry-level male, but perhaps the overall attitude that this sport is not for them makes it a little intimidating.

3 - mountain biking is a very male dominated sport. there just aren't that many women out there. again, this sends girls the message that 'this sport is not for them'. hard to be the one of the first to break that stereotype, especially if you already have doubts about being 'tough enough'.

i realize that i'm in the minority of women you described, who got into mountain biking on my own, and has never looked back. admittedly, i have higher agression levels than most women, and even some men. i also have a healthy apetite for adrenaline. but guess what, mike? it wasn't easy to get into the sport, even for me. i rode only with men, and when i fell and got back up, usually swearing, and got back on my bike, they freaked out. i was not fitting my appropriate gender role. i wasn't being a 'girl'. 

so the next time you wonder about the cognitive and physical abilities and aptitudes of female mountain bikers at any level, ask yourself this: why is it that the statement you make is 'come on dudes, let's go'? why do you not include girls in that attitude? maybe you coddle them a little more? maybe you mentally question their ability? maybe you do wonder silently if they're 'tough enough'? and guess what, mike. even if the words are not spoken, they are perceived. we're sensitive to that stuff...we're like dogs that way...


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## k2biker (Jan 13, 2004)

*The follow up*

I like where this is going now! Venus, Dantley, and Tass~ thank you for your kind words. Hey, I'm just trying to be more involved and be a positive influence on the kids (nieces and my nephew).

Impy, I like the video idea. I took some pictures (see below) on our ride on Friday and didn't do any coaching at first. Once we looked at the pictures, I was able to show both of my nieces some good and bad things about their form. I'll try the video too.

Now, onto our ride! The original plan was that my oldest niece, Catie, and I go riding as a birthday present for Catie. She's the one I've asked the questions about and the one that really enjoys the sport more. Becky, the second oldest, is more into skateboarding and basketball. There is a third niece, they're little sister Carol Ann, but she's only 5, so I don't take her to the woods yet. As you'll see in the pics, they are all redheads (including CA) and yes, they're going to be a handful as they get older!

We went to the Thomson trails in Macon which are a little more technical than the Pig Trail and Dauset, but I hadn't ridden there and wanted to see what it is like. From the parking lot, we rode around this field that borders the trail and I found several trailheads that serve as bail out points -- good mental note when riding with kids -- and we found some things to play on. There's a nice teeter totter and several dirt jumps of varying size and degree of difficulty. We played on these for a few minutes and this is where the jumping shots below were taken. We then went out on trail and rode for about an hour before bailing out. I think we got in about 4.5 miles which, given the technicality of the trail, I think is good for them.

Next step: me spending more time with them. Hey, not having a GF gives me free time, right? Yea, right! Anyway, it would be easier if I lived closer to my sister, but alas, I'll just have to start sucking it up. And both the girls need new bikes. Maybe I can play cool Santa this year 

Onto the pictures...
1. Becky postride (a great shot!)
2. Catie jumping
3. Becky jumping
4. Catie on trail
5. Catie and Becky preride


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*dHarriet, you are one of the rare ones*

and prove my point.

If you are already riding, through the dyanamic you describe (I wish I could have been there) you are what I call an "after." I meet such women on adult racing teams. People look at all the "afters" and think that they are the best and most predictive indicators of how to get women to ride. Nothing could be further from the truth. "Toughness" is not an exclusively male characteristic but it is closer to the surface in most males for whatever reason. You seem to want to bandy the sociological reasons for this. As I said, that is another forum.

I develope High School Montain Bike Racers from absolute beginners to screamingly fast Varsity competitors. Integrating Girls into our program is at the top of our agenda. The 3 points you make are insightful and germain and managing them is fundimental to what we do. The success of introducing ANYONE into this sport requires the careful location of motivations and abilities which will support the athlete in transition into safe, smart, and independant riding. To suggest that there is some unspoken doubt about a womans' ability or toughness, as if they were some callow and culturally ingrained bias, is a mistaken notion. Sensitivity to limitations is an acknowlegement of skill level and character, the locus for building and developement. To fail to sound out and measure ability and tendancy is a recipe for failure and harm, independant of gender.

For the record,"come on, let's go" and then hammer out into the great beyond works really well for girls with a season or two of riding under their belts but rarely for beginning girl riders. If I had a dozen of you as a teen it might be quite different but I would still have to consider all the other girls and meet their needs accordingly.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> To suggest that there is some unspoken doubt about a womans' ability or toughness, as if they were some callow and culturally ingrained bias, is a mistaken notion.


There is indeed such a bias, and girls internalize it better than anyone else. The guy who called me "a brave little girl"* a few weeks ago on the trail, or the co-worker who doubted my ability to negotiate downhill before even seeing me ride a bike serve to point out that there is indeed a bias about ability.

Having said that, it can be overcome in the right manner, for some.

*I'm freaking 39 years old for crying out loud


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

Dantley said:


> Charles,
> As long as she is riding and having fun without pressure she will continue to ride which in the end is the main goal.
> 
> Awesome!:thumbsup:


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## dHarriet (Sep 26, 2005)

BerkeleyMike said:


> To suggest that there is some unspoken doubt about a womans' ability or toughness, as if they were some callow and culturally ingrained bias, is a mistaken notion


that's a nice thought...i'll make sure to pass the message along to the next guy who gives me attitude on the trail, or in a bike shop, because i'm a girl. :thumbsup: shouldn't be hard, since it happens regularly.

as for my introduction into mtb'ing...you're right, it's not the norm. nor should it be. if i wasn't as stubborn as i am, i would have quit a long time ago. 

K2 - your nieces are super cute! looks like you guys had a great time! :thumbsup: you are one cool uncle!! :yesnod:

and Impy - some dude called you a 'brave little girl'?  and he's still alive? i would have thought you would test how well those 29ers roll...all over his face!


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

dHarriet said:


> and Impy - some dude called you a 'brave little girl'?  and he's still alive? i would have thought you would test how well those 29ers roll...all over his face!


I was too freaked out by him saying that so I just turned around and totally cleaned that section (for the first and only time) as he watched ...

then he walked it.


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## k2biker (Jan 13, 2004)

I just have to say that I know a few girls/ women/ young ladies who ride and I very much love seeing it. They are determined, strong -- mentally and physically, and take time to think things through whereas us guys tend to forge ahead blindly sometimes. Impy, you know my friend Moonbeam, I believe. She's a great example of this. I've told her that I think she'd kick my butt at any race we did because she has that extra amount mental toughness that I'm just finding within myself this year. 

I don't think of MTB'ing as a man's sport. I love it because it's NOT! Sure it's fun to go hammer sometimes, but I love seeing girls (young and old) out riding a bike. Yea, part of it's just because I'm a guy and enjoy the sight of a cute girl, but the women in this sport definitely hold their own against the guys. It's just icing on the cake that they look good doing it :thumbsup: I dated a girl last year that rides and in conversation a few weeks ago, she told me her lap times on a local trail are what mine where when we rode together. That's awesome and I told her I am proud of her! 

It does take some extra time I think for girls (in general) to get more comfortable on the bike. That's where I've seen a lot guys screw up when teaching their GF / SO to ride -- they get frustrated b/c they expect her to just pick it up. It pisses me off when they get upset and start getting upset. All that does is turn folks away from the sport. My last GF told me she wanted to start riding and actually went and tested some bikes while we were on a trip a couple months back. I told her that was great, but I didn't want her doing that unless it was something she really wanted for herself. I didn't want her to get into riding just b/c she thought it was something I wanted her to do. I know that she won't really get into and enjoy it unless she was doing it for herself. Since we're not dating anymore, I'm glad she didn't get the bike b/c it would just be collecting dust now.

I want people to enjoy this sport as much as I do and not go get a bike, ride it a couple of months, then hang it up forever because they had a bad experience or stupid BF. 

Anyway....Mike, sounds like you guys are doing some great stuff with your program that you could likely start as a business. I know folks here in the South are struggling with getting HS programs off the ground. Keep up the great work!

And for the record, I wouldn't dare call a girl a "brave little girl" or doubt that she could clean something. I'm more prone to do that with poser guys!


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## Neen (Sep 27, 2004)

Impy - that last line should be in HUGE bold letters, not tiny little ones. Thats freaking great! If I hear one more time, you're pretty good, for a girl, I think I'll scream!


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*You are talking to the wrong guy.*

I am not sure that some of you can even hear what I am say because you are so busy raging at someone calling you "little girl" or saying "you ride pretty well for a girl." I am not the person saying this. I am not promoting this bias. The ax grinding is obscuring the communication here. In a curious way it is the obverse to the bias and is reactionary.

Certainly circumstances in the feminine experience in MTB are challenging for reasons that just get up my nose, too. What is challenging for me in this and other venues is dealing with the negative assumptions and lessons learned at the hands of other men. I end up not being allowed to have my own identity and my messages are perverted. It is insulting.

To consider a girls' circumstance as being different than a boys is not a bias, it is a reality for the population at large. To understand and appreciate these differences in not a bias, nor is it an insult, but the greatest compliment an individual can hope to recieve at the hands of a mentor. To understand these differences in a biased society takes this mission to an even deeper level. To sound the depths of this difference or the depths of any factor for any gender, is what a coach, counselor, or teacher must do. I am and have been all of these things.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I am not sure that some of you can even hear what I am say because you are so busy raging at someone calling you "little girl" or saying "you ride pretty well for a girl." I am not the person saying this. I am not promoting this bias. The ax grinding is obscuring the communication here. In a curious way it is the obverse to the ...
> ...
> 
> .


Well thank goodness you didn't take away the bias that we are all reactionary.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> . To suggest that there is some unspoken doubt about a womans' ability or toughness, as if they were some callow and culturally ingrained bias, is a mistaken notion.


While I think that your coaching work is highly commendable, and gives you great insight into the workings of women, to suggest you have a grip on the subtleties and nuances of cultural experience of women in our society is condescending to say the least.


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## dHarriet (Sep 26, 2005)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I am not sure that some of you can even hear what I am say because you are so busy raging at someone calling you "little girl" or saying "you ride pretty well for a girl." I am not the person saying this. I am not promoting this bias. The ax grinding is obscuring the communication here. In a curious way it is the obverse to the bias and is reactionary.


we hear what you're saying mike. we just don't agree. you may not be promoting the bias, but denying the fact that it exists is just as bad. that's why you got the reaction you got. i for one, am very sensitive to this issue, because i have to deal with it everytime i go to a bike shop where the SAs don't know me. and i deal with it almost every time i'm out on the trails. and it gets really old...


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## LadyDi (Apr 17, 2005)

K2, leave the saddle alone. I agree w/ Vt Mtbkr-- only right-hand shifting for now. Does she have the type of shifters where she can "see" what gear she's in? If so, great. Regardless, don't be calculating gear ratios in her presence or shouting "upshift", "downshift", ok? Grown-up gals in my group refer to shifting in utterly simplistic terms-- "1 and 1" (1 Left and 1 Right) for example, equals the easiest granny gear. It's not that we're dumb, but jeez who wants to do math when you're riding your bike.... 

So anyway, tell your niece that "1" on the right will feel easier and show exactly her where "1" is. Then call out "2 and 1!" when you're heading up a hill with your niece. She can take your advice or not. No pressure, as you say. You may be surprised to learn that she's tucking away your nuggets of wisdom for later use.

Thanks!


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## Dantley (Feb 6, 2004)

K2,
Thanks for sharing the pictures!


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Well, then*

I went back to the thread which stated:
To suggest that there is some unspoken doubt about a womans' ability or toughness, as if they were some callow and culturally ingrained bias, is a mistaken notion.

I realized that while I was speaking within the context of my work I ought to have reinforced that qualification with a transitional statement to that effect. I was not intending to speak about doubt but to express, instead, and understanding of limitation as this is the first mistake the well-intentioned trainer can make. This is repeatedly expressed in my threads as essential to any training. The meaning taken, to deny cultural bias, by several participants here is clearly understandable but never my intention. I apologize for that omission and the subsequent misunderstanding it has caused. That there is a bias in society is clear. That we manage it with a full heart in our programs is never a question.


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## k2biker (Jan 13, 2004)

LadyDi said:


> K2, leave the saddle alone. I agree w/ Vt Mtbkr-- only right-hand shifting for now. Does she have the type of shifters where she can "see" what gear she's in? If so, great. Regardless, don't be calculating gear ratios in her presence or shouting "upshift", "downshift", ok? Grown-up gals in my group refer to shifting in utterly simplistic terms-- "1 and 1" (1 Left and 1 Right) for example, equals the easiest granny gear. It's not that we're dumb, but jeez who wants to do math when you're riding your bike....
> 
> So anyway, tell your niece that "1" on the right will feel easier and show exactly her where "1" is. Then call out "2 and 1!" when you're heading up a hill with your niece. She can take your advice or not. No pressure, as you say. You may be surprised to learn that she's tucking away your nuggets of wisdom for later use.
> 
> Thanks!


Good advice! Thank you! I have tried this once or twice but maybe need to go back to it. And who does math when they ride? I couldn't tell you my gear ratios to save my life! Those people scare me. I shift when it's too hard or too easy to pedal, c'mon, cut me some slack here-- I'm a blonde!

I like your term "grown up gals" -- can I use it? I always struggle with what to call girls between 20 and 40. They don't wanna be called "girls", "woman", "ma'am", or anything that could be misconstrued as something derogatory. Geez, that's a hard row to hold sometimes! "Grown up gals" is good, I think.


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## wunderhorn (May 13, 2005)

*this thread*



Berkeley Mike said:


> I realized that while I was speaking within the context of my work I ought to have reinforced that qualification with a transitional statement to that effect.


From top to bottom this thread is exhibit number 1,899,999 in the proof that we live in a matriarchy. No matter how many excuses they make, males are still on the run and can't do anything right.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

wunderhorn said:


> From top to bottom this thread is exhibit number 1,899,999 in the proof that we live in a matriarchy. No matter how many excuses they make, males are still on the run and can't do anything right.


Honestly, you'd think that men would naturally therefore steer clear of any female centered forum, now, wouldn't you.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> I realized that while I was speaking within the context of my work I ought to have reinforced that qualification with a transitional statement to that effect. I was not intending to speak about doubt but to express, instead, and understanding of limitation as this is the first mistake the well-intentioned trainer can make. This is repeatedly expressed in my threads as essential to any training. The meaning taken, to deny cultural bias, by several participants here is clearly understandable but never my intention. I apologize for that omission and the subsequent misunderstanding it has caused. That there is a bias in society is clear. That we manage it with a full heart in our programs is never a question.


I understand what you mean, I thought earlier what you were saying was that there shouldn't be any bias because there *is* no bias. The rest of hwat you were saying makes sense. My bad

And I still am reactionary. Oh well we needed a little spice in here. Y'all are too quiet these days anyway.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*You would think men would learn after a while.*

Unfortunately, due to milions of years of hardwiring, women have something men want and men will do just about anything, right or wrong, to get to it.


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## LadyDi (Apr 17, 2005)

Berkeley Mike said:


> Unfortunately, due to milions of years of hardwiring, women have something men want and men will do just about anything, right or wrong, to get to it.


Last time I checked, that still sorta worked both ways.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Really?!*

So I can get off my knees now?


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## k2biker (Jan 13, 2004)

Berkeley Mike said:


> So I can get off my knees now?


LOL!! Geez, there are so many places to go with that one....Further proof that we ain't the smartest of all! You left yourself wide open on that one, brother -- I'm interested to see the responses.

In the meantime, I got the useful info I needed so I'm heading out the door exiting the Lounge before I get thrashed. I caught Impy's tone with the whole " you'd think that men would naturally therefore steer clear of any female centered forum, now, wouldn't you" comment.

Thank you, ladies. Peace out!


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

k2biker said:


> I'm heading out the door exiting the Lounge before I get thrashed. I caught Impy's tone with the whole " you'd think that men would naturally therefore steer clear of any female centered forum, now, wouldn't you" comment.
> 
> Thank you, ladies. Peace out!


That wasn't directed at you.


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## LadyDi (Apr 17, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Berkeley Mike*
_So I can get off my knees now?_




k2biker said:


> LOL!! Geez, there are so many places to go with that one....


Ever-so-tempting... but I won't! 
Take care, guest males. Remember-- tell her to shift and she'll ride for a day, Teach her to shift and she'll kick your butt on some trail tomorrow.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

k2biker said:


> In the meantime, I got the useful info I needed so I'm heading out the door exiting the Lounge before I get thrashed. I caught Impy's tone with the whole " you'd think that men would naturally therefore steer clear of any female centered forum, now, wouldn't you" comment.
> 
> !


I'm screwed if I let asshats post stuff and don't say anything and I'm screwed if I call them out on it with a female point of view, if my comments are taken as applying to all men everywhere? In the meantime the rest of the female forum participants are so beat down by random misogynistic comments that they either don't say anything or have gone away.

I totally give up.


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*If you can't take the heat........*

I thought the Forum might be interested in this photo of me "coddling" one of my girl racers.


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## Maida7 (Apr 29, 2005)

Charles:

I think it's fantastic that you are supporting your nieces riding. BUT why not just let her have fun. She's just a kid. It's not a race. Who cares if she doesn't shift or her seat is too low? As long as she smiles like in those pics you posted, it's all good. Sometimes less is more. Like a few others have said: provide a good example and give good advice when she asks but stay away from being overly critical. I know this is easier said then done and it will probably annoy me also when my kids won't shift but in the end it's better to let them work it out and just enjoy the moment. I've personally ruined many baseball practice sessions with my 7 year old by being overly critical of his swing. I'm getting him a nice bike for Christmas. Hopefully I can follow my own advice and keep my mouth shut when he rides like a regular kid and not the perfect person I want him to be.

looks like your already doing a great job Charles, keep up the good work :thumbsup:


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## wunderhorn (May 13, 2005)

Impy said:


> I totally give up.


Don't give up, Impy! You seem to exercise the moderator power quite judiciously; I'll bet almost everyone would agree with that. Which only proves my point that we live in a matriarchy, at least in this forum. And a benevolent one, other than maybe calling certain posters "asshats."


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

If we call them asshats they probably deserve it. 

As for the matriarchy of the WL, you betcha. The other 87 forums are for the guys.


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## LadyDi (Apr 17, 2005)

formica said:


> If we call them asshats they probably deserve it.
> 
> As for the matriarchy of the WL, you betcha. The other 87 forums are for the guys.


LOL! Impy & Formica, you RULE!!!


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

wunderhorn said:


> Don't give up, Impy! You seem to exercise the moderator power quite judiciously; I'll bet almost everyone would agree with that. Which only proves my point that we live in a matriarchy, at least in this forum. And a benevolent one, other than maybe calling certain posters "asshats."


Oh I won't give up so easily. I'm over my asshat self already. I just had a _moment_.:incazzato:

It's hard to know where someone is coming from with text, don't we all know. Smilies help but I don't always like using them.

May I state for the record that I love men and hope they continue to contribute here in the (mostly) helpful manner they have doing so since the beginning of this forum. And if a woman here has an alternate view than you, take it in stride. And if the moderator makes a bad joke, take that in stride too, we are only human.:devil:

That is all
:band:


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## dHarriet (Sep 26, 2005)

just to clarify...wer're not a bunch of angry women here in the WL!  it has been my experience that these gals are helpful, welcoming and very supportive....but they'll also call you on your shyte when you get out of hand or say something that they don't agree with. but hey, that doesn't mean you're not welcome back...and we'll still be helpful and supportive!


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