# Introducing the New SPEED II



## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Greetings folks,

Our SPEED II light system sold out fast!! We got positive reviews from around the world. We even sold the SPEED II to some night fishermen who are pleased with the results.

We at BikeRayUSA are excited to introduce the our newly engineered SPEED II available for pre-sale until May 1st for $109.00. $129.99 after May 1st. Click Here: NEW SPEED II | BikeRayUSA

In our pursuit to offer quality products at affordable prices - We have teamed up with Xeccon - a great manufacturer and LED OEM specialist to many brand name companies.










The available color will be blue only.

The BikeRayUSA SPEED II new features include:

New casing for better cooling capabilities.
5.7 degree molded optical glass lens 
100% waterproof lighthead.
100% waterproof battery.
Four modes - High 1000 lumens, Medium 650 lumens, Low 350 lumens, and Blink.
New clip straps for helmet mount. No more Velcro strap!!!

We have also greatly increased the run time with our 4 cell Lithium Ion 8.6 volts 4.4 ah battery:

High - 4+hrs
Med - 6+hrs
Low - 10+hrs

As always - we offer a 1 year Full Warranty on all of our light systems.

More pictures and video to be added soon to our website and on here this thread.

Like I stated - we are very happy to be working with Xeccon. More lights from our SPEED series will be out in the near future. 2500 lumen light and under $100 light system coming soon.

We are also running a random drawing of $60 worth of swag on our Facebook page for the next 74 "people" likes in our #getto200FBlikes promotion.

If you have any questions - feel free to PM me, post here or find us on our website - Bicycle Lights | LED Bike Light | Mountian Bike Light | Cycle Lights.

Thanks and happy riding,

Michael Shinosky
Web Director - BikeRayUSA


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

Is this a single XPG emitter light ("The BikeRayUSA SPEED II uses a CREE XP-G LED...")?

The XPG R5 yields 463 lumens @ 1500ma from a XPG R5. OTF output after losses is less, perhaps 350 lumens. Is the Speed II a triple XPG light, thus your 1000 lumen claim?

http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED%20Components%20and%20Modules/XLamp/Data%20and%20Binning/XLampXPG.pdf

Do you have any road beamshots? Your wall shot doesn't tell me much.

A ~6 (5.7) degree beam seems like it would be too narrow, even for exclusive on-road use. I've found the (IIRC 12 degree) MS type to be about right for commuter use. The hotspot on a 6 degree beam would be awfully small.

No bicyclist needs 300 yards of throw on a bike light. You're looking for road obstacles within 10-70 feet depending on speed (and vision), and you need enough side-spill to alert oncoming motorists in adjacent lanes to your presence.

I have to wonder if the Speed II designer has spent much time riding a bike at night on the road, because your Product Description reads a little like a sales pitch for a "thrower" flashlight packaged in a bike light form.


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## gregg (Sep 30, 2000)

FYI, BikeRay is a paying Mtbr advertiser and they help keep the servers running. As a forum sponsor, they are allowed to post new product messages, like these.
Thanks,

-gregg, Site Manager Mtbr.com


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Greetings Seeker,

Happy to answer your questions:



seeker said:


> Is this a single XPG emitter light ("The BikeRayUSA SPEED II uses a CREE XP-G LED...")?
> The XPG R5 yields 463 lumens @ 1500ma from a XPG R5. OTF output after losses is less, perhaps 350 lumens. Is the Speed II a triple XPG light, thus your 1000 lumen claim?
> 
> http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED%20Components%20and%20Modules/XLamp/Data%20and%20Binning/XLampXPG.pdf


I made a mistake stating on our website that the SPEED II is using a Cree XM-G. We are using a Cree XM-L. My bad. Cree News: Cree


seeker said:


> Do you have any road beamshots? Your wall shot doesn't tell me much.


We are working on getting more photos and video up ASAP.



seeker said:


> A ~6 (5.7) degree beam seems like it would be too narrow, even for exclusive on-road use. I've found the (IIRC 12 degree) MS type to be about right for commuter use. The hotspot on a 6 degree beam would be awfully small.
> 
> No bicyclist needs 300 yards of throw on a bike light. You're looking for road obstacles within 10-70 feet depending on speed (and vision), and you need enough side-spill to alert oncoming motorists in adjacent lanes to your presence.
> 
> I have to wonder if the Speed II designer has spent much time riding a bike at night on the road, because your Product Description reads a little like a sales pitch for a "thrower" flashlight packaged in a bike light form.


You are entitled to your opinion and we respect that. But our customers have been happy with the results with the first SPEED II. That had a 3 degree beam angle.

We are very pleased with the new SPEED II and the longer battery life time we are getting from it.

If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask. We are happy to help


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## Wombat (Jan 25, 2004)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> I made a mistake ... we are using a Cree XM-L.


Michael

Your site says that it's using an *XP-L* LED. You may want to fix that.

Tim


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Wombat said:


> Michael
> 
> Your site says that it's using an *XP-L* LED. You may want to fix that.
> 
> Tim


Double Oops - Good looking out Tim


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> ...You are entitled to your opinion and we respect that. But our customers have been happy with the results with the first SPEED II. That had a 3 degree beam angle.


Your customers were so completely satisfied and happy with the original 3-degree beam, that Bikeray was then compelled to redesign this light with a 6-degree beam.

This action seems to reinforce my comments in post #2 - that the beam is probably too narrow for road use. It would be next to useless for off-road use, although I think you intend this to be road use only.

Also, you didn't answer my question regarding output. Is this a single emitter headlight? Even a 1 x Cree XML is not going to produce 1000 lumens "Out The Front". This claim is as inaccurate as Magicshine's "900" lumen light claim, which has been measured to reasonable accuracy in an integrating sphere several times at ~450 lumens.

If the Speed II is a single emitter XML light, then it's at best the same as a Magicshine XML headlight in terms of output. You can buy the MS 808E XML from a reputable dealer (Action LED) for $92 shipped CONUS, compared to your $120 (until May 1). I think Bikeray has priced the Speed II too high relative to your competitors.

Action-LED-Lights - MJ-808E-4M, 1000 lumen bike light set


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Hi Seeker. Glad to help you.

Once again you are entitled to your opinions - but we humbly disagree with them.



seeker said:


> Your customers were so completely satisfied and happy with the original 3-degree beam, that Bikeray was then compelled to redesign this light with a 6-degree beam.
> 
> This action seems to reinforce my comments in post #2 - that the beam is probably too narrow for road use. It would be next to useless for off-road use, although I think you intend this to be road use only.


We listened to our customers and they agreed that a slightly wider beam would be more beneficial. But, that does not mean they are not satisfied with the light system they have now. Your logic is faulty based on assumptions that has no real basis but that based on your own opinion.



seeker said:


> Also, you didn't answer my question regarding output. Is this a single emitter headlight? Even a 1 x Cree XML is not going to produce 1000 lumens "Out The Front". This claim is as inaccurate as Magicshine's "900" lumen light claim, which has been measured to reasonable accuracy in an integrating sphere several times at ~450 lumens.


Could you give me a source to the claim at only ~450 lumens?



seeker said:


> If the Speed II is a single emitter XML light, then it's at best the same as a Magicshine XML headlight in terms of output. You can buy the MS 808E XML from a reputable dealer (Action LED) for $92 shipped CONUS, compared to your $120 (until May 1). I think Bikeray has priced the Speed II too high relative to your competitors


The SPEED II is producing a run time of 4+ hours. It has better cooling capabilities and it comes with a helmet mount, 40 inch extension cable, and a 1 year full warranty, to name a few extras.

The special is for 109.99 and not $120 as you state.

To say that our product is priced too high based on our competitors is only an opinion while you try to shoot us down. Other people read these forums and they know what a troll is. Are you a troll - Seeker?

The SPEED II is producing a run time of 4+ hours. It has better cooling capabilities and it comes with a helmet mount, 40 inch extension cable, and a 1 year full warranty, to name a few extras.

I understand that you might not have great remarks for us - but have you tried one of our lights? Or do you form your opinions from others? If you are out there Azra - *clears throat* we would love our light back after refunding your money. We will send you a paid shipping label :thumbsup:.

We posted this thread to introduce a new product that we are proud to stand behind 110%. And like I stated - we respect your opinions - but when you start plugging another light company and include a link to their page - it really raises everyone's suspicions about what your intentions are for being on this thread.

We are very pleased to be working with a new light manufacturer Xeccon - a great company. We have a bright future ahead with more quality light systems coming out in the near future at affordable prices.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Just checked out your new offering and i think there will be a place for this. Should be an honest 700/800 OTF lumens, very long run times, and if the extra cooling objectives prove to work, will keep the output higher with air flow. The beam angle does seem to be on the tight side but that could be a plus. There are tones of flood bar lights out there, but not many helmet lights with a really tight beam and extra throw this product may have. And there are a few on this form that are always looking for more punch.:thumbsup:

With so much compatition BikeRayUSA you may have just just released something with an edge,(lots of punch)!!!. If there is enough spill i think you will grab a new demographic of customers. Good Luck!!!


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

@seeker, I think you need to cut back on the double espressos and try some soothing camomile tea, you really will feel calmer.

Also, you didn't confirm what is actually meant by 5.7°. it is an arbitrary figure unless backed up by an angular distribution chart in any case....

I have seen some manufacturers list angles based on the angle from centre, not the overall spread, turning a 9° beam on paper into an 18° beam on the wall, whereas others do list the overall angle.

@BRU-Michael, as aggressive as his comments seem, I think he added the Action Lights link just to back up his claim of pricing from a "Reputable" dealer rather than unfairly comparing your prices to a clearing house, like DX. The link didn't raise my suspicions as to why he was posting in this thread.

To be fair, there was apparently a mistake on the webpage, showing XP-G which may have raised valid suspicions about the 1000 lm claim.... Still, unless its a U2 or higher binned XM-L you'll not be getting 1000 lm OTF.

I'm looking for light with a better throw than the MS-808E, so let's see some beamshot comparos!


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## Xtyling (Apr 21, 2011)

BikeRayUSA-Michael: I hope you can send a demo set to MTBR so they can evaluate and review your products. I would love to read and see more of them.


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

GraXXoR said:


> ... you didn't confirm what is actually meant by 5.7°. it is an arbitrary figure unless backed up by an angular distribution chart in any case....


Talk to the person who wrote the Product Description, I'm simply taking them at their word. It's not my job to confirm their specs. My comment was essentially that a 6 deg beam makes a real small hotspot when aimed 20-40 feet away. In fact, I can't recall another commercial bike light having such a narrow beam. Can you?

I agree that the beam angle may be something different than what BR has claimed; after all, they didn't even get the emitter right, so what else is not true?

Regarding cost, BR charges $110+10 SH = $120 until May 1, which is 30% more than the linked MS, which is essentially the same light. After May 1 BR's price increases to 150% of Action LEDs MS 808 XML @ $92.44 shipped to my CONUS zip.

Who would choose an unproven BR S2 over an already established product, the MS 808 XML, which specs identically to the S2, from a reputable dealer like Action LED, AND pay 30 or 50% more? Well, almost no one would. I'm sure this is clear to you or I, but somehow this point was lost to the OP in my earlier post. Heck, he can't even do the math.

It is comical that BR would accuse me of shilling for Action LED, although it makes perfect sense since they employed the same strategy to sell their BR4 last June - using a shill to promote the BR4, aka "Rain Catcher".

*This thread ought to simply be entitled "FS: MS 808E in a different enclosure, with crummier optics, for only 30%/50% more than it was 18 months ago".*


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

*Beam Shot*

From 20 Feet:










Will follow up tomorrow - *yawn* have a good night.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

seeker said:


> Talk to the person who wrote the Product Description, I'm simply taking them at their word. It's not my job to confirm their specs. My comment was essentially that a 6 deg beam makes a real small hotspot when aimed 20-40 feet away. In fact, I can't recall another commercial bike light having such a narrow beam. Can you?
> 
> I agree that the beam angle may be something different than what BR has claimed; after all, they didn't even get the emitter right, so what else is not true?
> 
> ...


I like to give every new contender the benefit of the doubt:
You still haven't confirmed their optics' properties so your first argument about 'crummy' is itself crummy.

Dude, chill... It's just a bike light, not life insurance. And the last time I checked, it was still a free market. 
Moreover, every single light ever developed is 'unproven' until it's been on the market for a couple o' months/years.
By your book, we're be using Davy lamps, since they, by now have been proven.

Also, by your word, every XM-L in a bar mount is an 808E clone. Remember a couple of years ago how the 808 was panned for being the spawn of Satan (Chinese)? Deja vu much? Just let it lie. You're not the only discerning consumer of bike lights on this forum.

Like I said, reduce the caffeine/upper of choice intake and you'll feel better.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

@Michael

I'm impressed. There has been a noticeable trend towards micro lighting coupled with the rapid uptake of the XM-L, causing practically every new light on the market to be a floodlight.

It's very refreshing to see a tightly disciplined beam on the market. As I have mentioned in earlier posts elsewhere, I'm looking for a deeply penetrating beam that I can direct onto the road's surface a couple of hundred feet ahead without blinding peds and oncoming traffic in the opposite lane!

Look forward to the full beamshot extravaganza.


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## briancrowley (Jul 18, 2011)

I have two of BikeRay's lights -- the III and IV. I wish that the bike companies would agree on an outside independent agency to determine these true lumen values. I'm sensing they are all over the map, and the consumers have zero way of checking these facts. That said, I ride with a bunch of guys with Light & Motion seca 1400's -- those lights are the benchmark, but my III and IV are solid, very solid. For the money and value, Bikeray deserves some serious cred here. And for the record, my batteries have not been recalled!


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Xtyling said:


> BikeRayUSA-Michael: I hope you can send a demo set to MTBR so they can evaluate and review your products. I would love to read and see more of them.


We have sent MTBR our lights (not the Speed II yet). We are still waiting for the reviews . I guess if enough people request for our lights to be reviewed - it might help expedite things.


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## Rider445 (Apr 18, 2012)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> From 20 Feet:


That is the most horrible beam shot I've ever seen in my life. I'd say totally unusable for bike riding.

Can't you hire somebody to do a couple of proper trail shots using MTBR camera settings?


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

indebt said:


> Just checked out your new offering and i think there will be a place for this. Should be an honest 700/800 OTF lumens, very long run times, and if the extra cooling objectives prove to work, will keep the output higher with air flow. The beam angle does seem to be on the tight side but that could be a plus. There are tones of flood bar lights out there, but not many helmet lights with a really tight beam and extra throw this product may have. And there are a few on this form that are always looking for more punch.:thumbsup:
> 
> With so much compatition BikeRayUSA you may have just just released something with an edge,(lots of punch)!!!. If there is enough spill i think you will grab a new demographic of customers. Good Luck!!!


Thanks indebt  We are committed to providing products that riders will like. We have had many requests from roadies in providing a tighter beam with a great throw. We have found that it is also great in combination with a handle bar light that is more flood for the trails.

And with some of the straight aways on the Ocala Santos bike trails here in central Florida Santos-Bike Trails East, a throw light is handy when grabbing some higher mph to prepare for that next tight turn ahead.


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

briancrowley said:


> I have two of BikeRay's lights -- the III and IV. I wish that the bike companies would agree on an outside independent agency to determine these true lumen values. I'm sensing they are all over the map, and the consumers have zero way of checking these facts. That said, I ride with a bunch of guys with Light & Motion seca 1400's -- those lights are the benchmark, but my III and IV are solid, very solid. For the money and value, Bikeray deserves some serious cred here. And for the record, my batteries have not been recalled!


Thanks for the props briancrowley..glad you like our lights!! And if by chance there is a problem with you light system - you have our 1 year full warranty backing it up. We will even pay for the shipping.:thumbsup:


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Rider445 said:


> That is the most horrible beam shot I've ever seen in my life. I'd say totally unusable for bike riding.
> 
> Can't you hire somebody to do a couple of proper trail shots using MTBR camera settings?


Hello Rider445,

Thanks for your concern. We had some interest in getting something up quickly. We are working on getting some better photos and a video up. Hopefully by Thursday night.

Thanks,

Michael Shinosky
Web Director - BikeRayUSA


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

GraXXoR said:


> Like I said, reduce the caffeine/upper of choice intake and you'll feel better.


I'd feel better if you could make an intelligent contribution to this thread, rather than your repetitious, juvenile dietary advice.


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

Rider445 said:


> That is the most horrible beam shot I've ever seen in my life. I'd say totally unusable for bike riding.
> 
> Can't you hire somebody to do a couple of proper trail shots using MTBR camera settings?


Those were my thoughts exactly, last night, when there were 2 horrible beam shots on this page. The OP apparently decided one did not cast his product in a favorable light, and removed it. The missing picture showed how the BR S2 can slightly illuminate a building 200 yards away, while leaving the pothole 30 feet in front of you in nearly complete darkness.

Photography considerations aside, I doubt you'll ever see nice trail beamshots from the BR S2 since this spotlight will probably prove to be unsuitable for anything except road riding, if even that.


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## Rider445 (Apr 18, 2012)

seeker said:


> Those were my thoughts exactly, last night, when there were 2 horrible beam shots on this page. The OP apparently decided one did not cast his product in a favorable light, and removed it. The missing picture showed how the BR S2 can slightly illuminate a building 200 yards away, while leaving the pothole 30 feet in front of you in nearly complete darkness.
> 
> Photography considerations aside, I doubt you'll ever see nice trail beamshots from the BR S2 since this spotlight will probably prove to be unsuitable for anything except road riding, if even that.


You're kidding, right? with a bean so narrow and such an extreme transition from light to dark, that thing is not suitable for any sort of riding, road, trail or circus.

I'd like to give BR the benefit of the doubt but unless they produce some trail pics using MTBR camera settings (not holding my breath) I'd say this is laughable attempt at a bike light from a company that does not understand anything about riding a bike at night.


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

Rider445 said:


> You're kidding, right? with a bean so narrow and such an extreme transition from light to dark, that thing is not suitable for any sort of riding, road, trail or circus.
> 
> I'd like to give BR the benefit of the doubt but unless they produce some trail pics using MTBR camera settings (not holding my breath) I'd say this is laughable attempt at a bike light from a company that does not understand anything about riding a bike at night.


I agree with your assessment completely.

Circus - that's funny.


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## briancrowley (Jul 18, 2011)

Seeker, do you ride or just talk on forums? What lights do you ride with -- have you had a bad experience with these guys?


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## Rider445 (Apr 18, 2012)

seeker said:


> I agree with your assessment completely.
> 
> Circus - that's funny.


It would make a good WWII anti-aircraft searchlight, tho. :thumbsup:


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Rider445 said:


> That is the most horrible beam shot I've ever seen in my life. I'd say totally unusable for bike riding.
> 
> Can't you hire somebody to do a couple of proper trail shots using MTBR camera settings?


Yep, not even a ruler or a comment to say how wide the spot is.... waiting for some proper shots to be put up.



seeker said:


> The missing picture showed how the BR S2 can slightly illuminate a building 200 yards away, while leaving the pothole 30 feet in front of you in nearly complete darkness.
> Photography considerations aside, I doubt you'll ever see nice trail beamshots from the BR S2 since this spotlight will probably prove to be unsuitable for anything except road riding, if even that.


If true, then it is indeed useless by itself. I didn't see the beamshot, but if that's the case, it would definitely be too tight to be of use except as a laser pointer. This lack of local spill might be the case if the beam was above horizontal i guess or if the camera settings were off. It seems odd that there's no spill at all though, as assuming that the LED is not of the rear-facing, controlled-beam type there should be significant direct illumination from the XM-L itself, which is known for its natively wide beam. Even in the 808E has enough flood to ride with on its own.



indebt said:


> Just checked out your new offering and i think there will be a place for this. Should be an honest 700/800 OTF lumens, very long run times, and if the extra cooling objectives prove to work, will keep the output higher with air flow. The beam angle does seem to be on the tight side but that could be a plus. There are tones of flood bar lights out there, but not many helmet lights with a really tight beam and extra throw this product may have. And there are a few on this form that are always looking for more punch.


Yes, that's my assessment, I ride with a couple of X2 (1st ed.) on the bars. These are spectacularly floody, even with a dual "spot" lens. I have a lid mounted 816, but as you might know it's rather big on the top of the helmet. 
I am a heavy city night rider (Tokyo) so need my "tighty brighties". I am looking for something with a tighter focus that the 808E and more punch, something that will illuminate my own carriageway without unduly annoying oncoming vehicles in the opposite lane.

The thing is, that for road riding, even my lid mounted 816's spot is a bit too loose.

Take this, one of my favorite junctions... I sometimes need it to shine across a brightly lit six-lane junction into the cabin of an 18 wheeler who's driver is busy chatting up some lass on a mobile phone. My 816 sometimes doesn't cut it.

I would rather it have a remote option though, like my 816 and X2s.

Off topic, but, wanna see a really unusably tight beampattern?

I made the mistake of wasting $40 on an HL-EL530
[HERE - Bike Radar]
Now that's pointless, even as a torch.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> From 20 Feet:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy moly, are you using aspherical optics of some sort? I know the final pattern is round and not square as they would be in true asphericals, but man that's a mean beam.

Could you also take some better photos of the light head itself with some, say, next to a well known light such as an 808?


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Just to show some compatibility to from one of our other lights - the BikeRayIII.

As Stated by Mtbr - 2012 Bike Lights Shootout - Backyard Beam Pattern Photos | Mountain Bike Review | Page 3

Our BikeRayUSA III - $159.00 1150 Claimed Lumens 74 Mtbr Lux









Magicshine-MJ-8721 - $185.00 Claimed 1600 Lumens 102 Mtbr Lux









Magicshine-MJ-868 - $124.95 1000 Claimed Lumens 57 Mtbr Lux









Dinotte XML-3 $259.00 1200 Claimed Lumens 105 Mtbr Lux









So there are the spec photos produced by Mtbr - We are sorry that we have not put up any decent photos yet. We will have the SPEED II photos up tomorrow night camera speced as close as we can get it with our camera per Mtbr standards.

Now we are also offering at different type of light with the SPEED II - a torch light that compliments the handle bar light.

We have a light that us under $100.00 our BikeRayUSA Ray II. Ray II | BikeRayUSA


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

GraXXoR said:


> Holy moly, are you using aspherical optics of some sort? I know the final pattern is round and not square as they would be in true asphericals, but man that's a mean beam.
> 
> Could you also take some better photos of the light head itself with some, say, next to a well known light such as an 808?


We don't have an 808 - but I will take a some pictures and video tomorrow to give you a feel of the size.

It's hard even with the best cameras to really give a gauge of how a light is going to perform. People want to see it in action themselves - on their handlebar or helmet. We understand and respect that people are going to be very critical. We encourage it because it helps the industry in itself to come out with new innovative products.

We offer a great return policy - try our light. If you don't like it ship it back within 7 days - and we will refund your money. We will even pay for the shipping (USA orders only emailed shipping label).


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> Your logic is faulty based on assumptions that has no real basis but that based on your own opinion.


 Your beamshots prove my assessment of the BR S2 is essentially correct.



BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> Could you give me a source to the claim at only ~450 lumens?


I'm not going to waste more time explaining to you how LEDs, heat, optics and and bike lights in general work. If you don't know that a MS 900 does not actually produce 900 lumens, then you really shouldn't be representing a bike light company. It's your job to explain this subject to me!



BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> The special is for 109.99 and not $120 as you state.


You presently charge 110 + 10 for S&H = $120. The link I posted is to an equivalent bike light, sold for $92.44 with least costly S&H. You are selling essentially the same thing for 30% more, until May 1, when you will be selling it for 50% more.



BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> To say that our product is priced too high based on our competitors is only an opinion while you try to shoot us down. Other people read these forums and they know what a troll is. Are you a troll - Seeker?


Yes! I am the greatest troll in the history of mtbr.com, just ask anyone. I also was the guy firing from the grassy knoll.

Are you a lazy moron - Michael? Research my posts and threads, you'll see I'm a real bicyclist with real concerns - it will take you all of 5 minutes to deduce this fact.

I've merely asked straightforward questions about your product. Rather than actually answering these questions and adequately explaining the product, you've resorted to attack and unfounded accusation.

I'm sorry that you find yourself in the unfortunate position of trying to sell a product that's inferior to a less expensive one, and that you lack basic sales skills and technical knowledge of your product, but it's not my fault. Calling me names won't help your situation.



BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> I understand that you might not have great remarks for us - but have you tried one of our lights? Or do you form your opinions from others? If you are out there Azra - *clears throat* we would love our light back after refunding your money. We will send you a paid shipping label


I'm not Azra, and I don't have your water-damaged BR4. I've been contributing thoughtful comments to mtbr.com since 2001, and generally trying to be helpful, just as I am now helping people make a more informed choice. If you don't believe me, then ask mtbr to check IP addresses for you.

Since you mention Azra, I will share the link to the BR4 thread from last June, where Bikeray used a shill to promote the BikeRay 4, which proved to be subject to failure from just a few minutes exposure to light rain.

I seriously considered purchase of a BR4 back then. If you care to look, you'll see I made 12 posts to this thread, discussing technical aspects of the product. I concluded my comments by rightfully chastizing Patrick/BikeRay for deceitfully trying to sell a known flawed product. Any decent seller would not keep trying to sell a light once they knew a few drops of rain could kill it. Azra knows this; that's why he never sent your busted light back to you. Why would he spend money and time to ship a package to someone who'd try to swindle him? Would you? I bet not.

Except for its "for dry weather use only" limitation, the BR4 was a far superior bike light to the BR Speed 2.



BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> ...when you start plugging another light company and include a link to their page - it really raises everyone's suspicions about what your intentions are for being on this thread.


The purpose of the link was to direct YOU to a fairly well known better deal, so that you would realize your product is priced too high and give you the opportunity to take appropriate action.

There's no reason for me to plug ActionLED, as their reputation as a bike light seller is stellar on eBay and MTBR. I've never got a dime from Jim(?), rather I gave him $87 for a MS 808 P7 in 2010, my only interaction with him, ever.

I know that Jim answers emails promptly with informative, honest, satisfactory answers that you can only wish for, he now has a fairly impressive website (another thing that BikeRay desperately needs), and his products are superior to yours with lower price. Why would ActionLED need my endorsement, or a shill of any kind, ever?


----------



## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

GraXXoR said:


> ...one of my favorite junctions...


Damn, you are Evil Knievel reincarnate. You really should look for some very good lights - flashing ones. And body armor.

I have no idea why he's holding this bicycle:
File:At Home With Evel Knievel.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> Just to show some compatibility to from one of our other lights...


Wow, I want the Dinotte XML3! Thanks for the pics. I was having a tough time making a choice.

Seriously, are you trying to NOT sell the BR Speed 2, by clearly showing us how much better your competitors' lights are?

BikeRay must be a sole proprietorship with only 1 employee.


----------



## Rider445 (Apr 18, 2012)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> We don't have an 808 - but I will take a some pictures and video tomorrow to give you a feel of the size.
> 
> It's hard even with the best cameras to really give a gauge of how a light is going to perform. People want to see it in action themselves - on their handlebar or helmet. We understand and respect that people are going to be very critical. We encourage it because it helps the industry in itself to come out with new innovative products.
> 
> We offer a great return policy - try our light. If you don't like it ship it back within 7 days - and we will refund your money. We will even pay for the shipping (USA orders only emailed shipping label).


So basically you are saying: don't believe pictures, believe us and send us your money. You think we are stupid?

I guess your business model is to import whatever cheap trash you can find in China, sell it here for as much money as you can possibly get, swindle those that don't know better, and refund a few that do?

Here's a hint for you: mtbr is the wrong place for that scam.


----------



## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

seeker said:


> I'm not going to waste more time explaining to you how LEDs, heat, optics and and bike lights in general work. If you don't know that a MS 900 does not actually produce 900 lumens, then you really shouldn't be representing a bike light company. It's your job to explain this subject to me!


Lame excuse - if you are truly here on this thread to point out so called flaws to inform consumers - then back it up with a source - other then just a flat out statement. I could care less about what the MS 900's output is. Seeker - you are drawing more and more suspicious to me that you are with MS. Let me set the record straight - MS and BikeRayUSA have history with each other. If you don't know the back story - I'm sorry for you for when it does come to light (no pun). This is neither the time or the thread to discuss that.



seeker said:


> You presently charge 110 + 10 for S&H = $120. The link I posted is to an equivalent bike light, sold for $92.44 with least costly S&H. You are selling essentially the same thing for 30% more, until May 1, when you will be selling it for 50% more.


If I wanted a recall on my battery - I would buy a MS



seeker said:


> Yes! I am the greatest troll in the history of mtbr.com, just ask anyone. I also was the guy firing from the grassy knoll.
> 
> Are you a lazy moron - Michael? Research my posts and threads, you'll see I'm a real bicyclist with real concerns - it will take you all of 5 minutes to deduce this fact.
> 
> ...


Geez - took me two minutes to find out that you don't have a public profile setup, you have no friends but you have been on here since 2001. You lack any credibility if you choose to remain anonymous. No, I am not a lazy moron seeker but, thanks for asking. You didn't just merely ask straight forward questions. You are out to get us because you think Patrick was using Cat-man-Do as a shill because he did not announce in the beginning that he got the light from us to test out. We had no control on what Cat-man-Do does with his review. If he was a shill - why would he come out and say he got the light from us to test out? He explained himself fully and pointed out a serious design flaw that we fixed. Azra happened to get one of the first ones sold. We have had very little complaints from that point forward on the BikeRay III and BikeRay IV. We were not happy with the results BikeRay China was given us. In fact - the same company that produces MS is right next door to BikeRay. They have been stealing each others designs and selling them under other companies names for sometime now. Heck - So who stole who's design from who? You can't answer that question can you? Is the MS a knock off the BR or the BR a knockoff of MS? So stop with the whole song and dance of cloned MS's. The fact is MS sent GeoManGear out of business because of their inferior product. Why do you think they could sell them so cheaply? Put two and two together seeker. Next they do it with Action-LED and move on to the next person who wants to distribute their products.

This is why we are now working with a great company - Xeccon. A British owned company with a manufacturing plant in China. We have been talking relentlessly with them about new innovative designs and products.

Do you think with oil prices going up - Action LED is going to be able to sell their lights at their current cost and sustain for the long haul? Hit and Run. Shipping has already doubled through major reliable Importers.



seeker said:


> I'm sorry that you find yourself in the unfortunate position of trying to sell a product that's inferior to a less expensive one, and that you lack basic sales skills and technical knowledge of your product, but it's not my fault. Calling me names won't help your situation.


Once again - an opinion from an anonymous user on this forum. Come out from the dark and introduce yourself to the community instead of hiding behind an IP address.

Where did I call you a name - Seeker?

I didn't say you were Azra - Seeker. People need to know that we want our light back after refunding her money. She still uses the light to this day and has been nowhere on these message boards lately. If she wants to keep using the light - fine. But it needs to be known that she is being deceitful and devious and some discreditably needs to be thrown her way when judging our lights and customer service. You happened to jump on her bandwagon - which makes you look bad.

Let me make this straight for the record: We are not trying to knowingly deceive anyone. Patrick is very smart in the field of mechanical and electrical engineering and has designed many prototype light heads. It's happens to be that his English is not the best because he is not a native resident of America. So there has been some misunderstandings when it came to forum posts from him. That is why he has hired me to help out. You are out to get us for a lost in translation mishap and we are sorry for this. I might not have a full technical grasp on the ins and outs of a circuit board and flux capacitors (Doc?) but that doesn't mean I can't help provide great customer service or sell a light. We value our customers and the community very much. We sponsor many local and east coast bike races with Gone Riding and DOWN 2 EARTH | CALENDAR OF EVENTS. We take pride in out lights and it gives us a boost of spirit when someone comes up to us at a race or festival and says they love our light. We are out there trying to promote the night riding community as a whole and have spent many dollars trying to give night races, 12 hour, and 24 hour races etc a place where professionals riders can maybe make a living from it. That's one of our goals. I don't know if MS or Action LED is doing this - let's hope so for the sake of the industry itself. I know Light and Motion and Nite Rider do. But anyways - ...



seeker said:


> The purpose of the link was to direct YOU to a fairly well known better deal, so that you would realize your product is priced too high and give you the opportunity to take appropriate action.


If that was your purpose - to direct US to a better deal so that we would realize our product is priced to high - then you should of stated it a little more clearly that that was your intention. But you didn't. You just plugged it right in without a "no offense" or a "this is just my opinion but..." Otherwise you fall into the category of the Cat-Man-Do situation - Either it was a "honest misunderstanding" or "shill tatic".



seeker said:


> There's no reason for me to plug ActionLED, as their reputation as a bike light seller is stellar on eBay and MTBR. I've never got a dime from Jim(?), rather I gave him $87 for a MS 808 P7 in 2010, my only interaction with him, ever.
> 
> I know that Jim answers emails promptly with informative, honest, satisfactory answers that you can only wish for, he now has a fairly impressive website (another thing that BikeRay desperately needs), and his products are superior to yours with lower price. Why would ActionLED need my endorsement, or a shill of any kind, ever?


We can only wish for? Once again - attacking with baseless accusations. Just makes you look bad dude. You're right - why would they need any endorsement when they have you doing it for free from a light you bought from them in 2010 that had a battery recall on it. I mean - you spent all this time trying to rebuttal me and you did it for free because you love MS lights so much? Really?...Really? No man - I WAS feeling bad about myself and the company I work for - BikeRayUSA after taking punches from you. But, now after arguing with your statements and opinions and explaining our situation on this thread - I am even more confident that our company is moving in the right direction. And I have you to thank for that.  Thanks Seeker....ONE


----------



## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Rider445 said:


> Here's a hint for you: mtbr is the wrong place for that scam.


How do you know? You just joined today. :skep:

If people want to buy a light with confused specifications, no picture of the actual finished product, and somewhat overexposed beamshot I say let them.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

seeker said:


> Damn, you are Evil Knievel reincarnate. You really should look for some very good lights - flashing ones. And body armor.
> 
> I have no idea why he's holding this bicycle:
> File:At Home With Evel Knievel.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


LOL...

One of these junctions will be my last, for sure...


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> Lame excuse - if you are truly here on this thread ....to point out so called flaws to inform consumers - then back it up with a source - other then just a flat out statement. I could care less about what the MS 900's output is. Seeker - you are drawing more and more suspicious to me that you are with MS. Let me set the record straight - MS and BikeRayUSA have history with each other. If you don't know the back story - I'm sorry for you for when it does come to light (no pun). This is neither the time or the thread to discuss that.
> 
> If I wanted a recall on my battery - I would buy a MS
> 
> ...


I think I now know how the Sheriff's Deputies' feel when they arrive at a Domestic Disturbance call to the trailer park down by the river at 2:30AM on Sunday morning.

Jim, I'm finished with this project - can I get my check now?


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

*SPEED II Photos*



GraXXoR said:


> Holy moly, are you using aspherical optics of some sort? I know the final pattern is round and not square as they would be in true asphericals, but man that's a mean beam.
> 
> Could you also take some better photos of the light head itself with some, say, next to a well known light such as an 808?


Hi GraXXor - we are not using aspherical options. It is a mean beam though :madmax:.

We will have some good night shots per Mtbr standards hopefully tonight. Got to get to the Spruce Creek Trails in NSB, Florida Spruce Creek Preserve Mountain Bike Trail in New Smyrna Beach, Florida || SINGLETRACKS.COM and then upload video and photos.

Here are some photos of the light head with some specs.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> Hi GraXXor - we are not using aspherical options. It is a mean beam though :madmax:.
> 
> We will have some good night shots per Mtbr standards hopefully tonight. Got to get to the Spruce Creek Trails in NSB, Florida Spruce Creek Preserve Mountain Bike Trail in New Smyrna Beach, Florida || SINGLETRACKS.COM and then upload video and photos.
> 
> Here are some photos of the light head with some specs.


These lights all look the same to me so I guess it's personal preference. You can buy a clone XM-L T-6 now on ebay, new for 40 delivered. So you buy 2 for 80 or you buy 1 BR for 120 delivered but w/ a warranty. It's just personal choice I guess.

I'm skeptical though and just think these are all the same.

Has anyone actually taken apart all these lights to see the differences. My guess is the difference is warranty and actually having someone on the selling end who will help if there is an issue.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> We at BikeRayUSA are excited to introduce the our newly engineered SPEED II available for pre-sale until May 1st for $109.00. $129.99 after May 1st. Click Here: NEW SPEED II | BikeRayUSA
> 
> In our pursuit to offer quality products at affordable prices -* We have teamed up with Xeccon - a great manufacturer and LED OEM specialist to many brand name companies. *
> 
> ...


 I would like to say that the new offering from Bikeray ( the Speed II ) has me curious. I've seen lights sold from the U.K. market using the Xeccon label but have never seen one in person. It has been said that the beam pattern is narrow. I guess the beam shots will show whither or not that is true but from your measurements of the light head I would think it would be very much like the output of a C8 Torch as the dimensions are almost the same. Since a C8 torch has killer throw these might just have the kind of beam pattern that some ( like me ) are looking for. I can't speak for everyone but many people have been disappointed with the current array of XM-L and MS/ MS clones as far as throw goes.

When I bought my C8 torch last year all I could think was, "Oh my, if I could just run this on the helmet! Unfortunately the C8 is just too big and heavy for the helmet. If your light does what the C8 can do I just might have to have one. In the mean time I'll sit back and let whatever beam shots you provide do the talking. ( * I didn't think I was going to like the BLUE but after seeing one it doesn't look bad )


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Does it come with a free T-shirt and water bottle?


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

Looks like they addressed the "waterproof" shortfalls of their BR4 - 


























drain holes 


***


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

mb323323 said:


> These lights all look the same to me so I guess it's personal preference. You can buy a clone XM-L T-6 now on ebay, new for 40 delivered. So you buy 2 for 80 or you buy 1 BR for 120 delivered but w/ a warranty. It's just personal choice I guess.
> 
> I'm skeptical though and just think these are all the same.
> 
> Has anyone actually taken apart all these lights to see the differences. My guess is the difference is warranty and actually having someone on the selling end who will help if there is an issue.


I dunno, it looks to me that these lights have portholes drilled in the sides for side visibility. As far as I know, that would be a first for Magicshine clones.

There will be some extra machining involved and then extra fitting involved in covering the sideholes with separate lenses or covers. Plus the fact that it isn't actually a clone in that sense then any more, one would expect the price to be a little bit higher.

Sure you can get a knock off for $40, but remember that the battery is totally wank when it comes to being waterproof. They're basically half shrink-wrapped and totally inadequately at that.

This light looks to have a significantly better protected battery.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> I would like to say that the new offering from Bikeray ( the Speed II ) has me curious. I've seen lights sold from the U.K. market using the Xeccon label but have never seen one in person. It has been said that the beam pattern is narrow. I guess the beam shots will show whither or not that is true but from your measurements of the light head I would think it would be very much like the output of a C8 Torch as the dimensions are almost the same. Since a C8 torch has killer throw these might just have the kind of beam pattern that some ( like me ) are looking for. I can't speak for everyone but many people have been disappointed with the current array of XM-L and MS/ MS clones as far as throw goes.
> 
> When I bought my C8 torch last year all I could think was, "Oh my, if I could just run this on the helmet! Unfortunately the C8 is just too big and heavy for the helmet. If your light does what the C8 can do I just might have to have one. In the mean time I'll sit back and let whatever beam shots you provide do the talking. ( * I didn't think I was going to like the BLUE but after seeing one it doesn't look bad )


I'm in the same boat. As I've said elsewhere, I really want a light with an impressive amount of throw that will limit its beam to just one carriageway.

The C8 does indeed seem to have a serious throw. I'm waiting beam shots.

I really don't like the blue. I would definitely have to spray it black.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

haven't we been here before with public slanging matches between BikeRay employees and people on mtbr? Something about who copied who, then the whole BR4 waterproofness debacle. I'd suggest BikeRay employees read some of the posts Shannon at Baja Designs and the Action LED guy (jim?) make to see how to professionally interact with your customer base and build a good reputation.

TBH though, as soon as I saw the light was made by Xeccon and all the shill posts Xeccon employees have made I lost interest. It's another cheap Chinese light backed by a US warranty, what's more to say?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

GraXXoR said:


> I dunno, it looks to me that these lights have portholes drilled in the sides for side visibility. As far as I know, that would be a first for Magicshine clones.....
> .


That was my first thought as well but when I starting reading up on Xeccon I found out those might actually be cooling vents to an internal heat sink. I'm not really sure about that though. BR will have to add their comments to clarify that.

@Matt....Perhaps, but personally I don't care where it comes from. I just care if it does what the people selling it says that it does. *IF* it mimics a C8 torch I might be interested.

Over the past couple weeks I've been eyeing other helmet-style lights as well that might provide a little better throw vs. the MS 808E. I have a couple on my "Most interesting list". The Speed II makes number 3.

@Bikeray....Mike, can you tell us more about the side holes. Secondly, can you tell us how hard the emitter is being driven? What's the current draw on high?


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## Rakuman (Oct 30, 2004)

*My first impressions about this light is NO WAY that will work on the bars with that bar mount. First bump you hit, with that mount so far in the rear of the light its going to be facing down... Bikeray made the same mistake with the first run of the RayIII I had to jerry rig a mount to get that one to work... with that spot pattern I would maybe consider it for a helmet light but it also looks to be quite large I would love to see it next to a 808 or a Xera to compare size.*


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

scar said:


> Looks like they addressed the "waterproof" shortfalls of their BR4 - drain holes


Those were my thoughts exactly, as I was actually going to simply post "Are those weep holes?". BR has not learned much about the importance of keeping moisture out of their lights. I suspect the holes are for side-lighting or cooling, or perhaps simply a cosmetic feature.

In usual form, BR sticks a product picture up without offering any information, apparently expecting customers to solve the riddle of what the heck they're selling.

You can't tell now, since BR has edited (corrected) their Speed 2 webpage and OP, but this was originally billed as a 1000 lumen single XPG light. The people at BR appear to have less knowledge about bike lights than the average mtbr.com lurker.



mattthemuppet said:


> haven't we been here before with public slanging matches between BikeRay employees and people on mtbr? Something about who copied who, then the whole BR4 waterproofness debacle. I'd suggest BikeRay employees read some of the posts Shannon at Baja Designs and the Action LED guy (jim?) make to see how to professionally interact with your customer base and build a good reputation. TBH though, as soon as I saw the light was made by Xeccon and all the shill posts Xeccon employees have made I lost interest. It's another cheap Chinese light backed by a US warranty, what's more to say?


The whole BR vs MS war was news to me as of post #36. If you read through this post, the OP seems to think 
1. I am a MS employee, and thus his evil arch enemy, 
2. I am a shill for ActionLED, 
3. I am Azra, a former customer who (surprise) no longer communicates with BR.
4. I am Batman!

Of course all this is nonsense and utter fantasy on the part of the OP. I'd never heard of Xeccon before post #36. It doesn't surprise me Xeccon shills lights on mtbr. This has already been done in spectacular fashion last year in the BR4 thread.

It's nice of you to suggest to the OP that he/BR model their sales approach to Shannon or Jim, both perfect examples of "good sellers".

If the OP ever gets around to posting a decent beamshot of the Speed 2, I predict it show a tremendous hotspot with next to no spill. As you can see from pics in post #40, it has a smooth reflector, and combined with the "5.7 degree" beam, it should prove to be quite the spotlight.

It will probably make a good supplemental helmet spotlight, if you don't mind blinding the crap out of any approaching person. The Speed 2 could prove to be quite hazardous for road use. I'm pretty sure the local LE will be inclined to cite any bicyclist who inadvertently beams them with this retina-killer.

As to the suitability of the Speed 2 as a primary headlight, I think it would be chosen last from the large selection of bike lights now available.

I'll reiterate an earlier point I made in post #12, that the Speed 2 is simply a 1xXML light with a 4.4 ah battery, essentially the same parts as a MS 808E, which started selling a long time ago, for a lot less than what BR charges, or as I stated in #12, *This thread ought to simply be entitled "FS: MS 808E in a different enclosure, with crummier optics, for only 30%/50% more than it was 18 months ago".

*You'd think BR would have immediately scrambled to produce S2 beamshots to contradict this cogent point, but curiously here we are 2 days later, and nothing. Why is that? I may be eating crow soon, and I hope I am, because real competition between bike light sellers is good for us consumers.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

sorry seeker, I was referring to a thread a year or two ago, about the BR1 or 2 (can't remember) when the owner of BR had a big blow up on a thread. Doesn't matter who's right or wrong, it just doesn't look professional.

As for the light, it doesn't look like that bad a deal. Certainly not a great deal, but I seem to remember Geoman selling the XM-L MS lights for $90-110 (I think). Comparing prices to MS lights bought direct from China isn't really fair - the difference in price is paying for a warranty and CS backup, neither of which you'll receive if anything goes wrong with a DX or eBay bought light. It just looks like any single XM-L Chinese light to me, they're all much of a muchness: a cheap, semi-disposable and reasonably bright light to get into night riding.


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

mattthemuppet said:


> sorry seeker, I was referring to a thread a year or two ago, about the BR1 or 2 (can't remember) when the owner of BR had a big blow up on a thread. Doesn't matter who's right or wrong, it just doesn't look professional.


I did not see those threads. I'm not really a regular reader here for a few years now. BR blowing up = SOP for BR. Their unprofessional, uncouth conduct on the forum kills their sales prospects even more than their actual mediocre product/pricing.



mattthemuppet said:


> As for the light, it doesn't look like that bad a deal. Certainly not a great deal, but I seem to remember Geoman selling the XM-L MS lights for $90-110 (I think)... It just looks like any single XM-L Chinese light to me, they're all much of a muchness: a cheap, semi-disposable and reasonably bright light to get into night riding.


Yep, Geo was 90-110. dapedaler aka ActionLED was/is 87-92.

I agree, the Speed 2 appears to be yet another MS clone, with the caveat that it's narrowly focused spotlight beam makes it poorly suited as a main headlight.


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

briancrowley said:


> Seeker, do you ride or just talk on forums? What lights do you ride with -- have you had a bad experience with these guys?


Brian, use the quote button or you may find yourself ignored.

I've ridden bicycles >4,000 hours at night in the past decade. I've used a Marwi NightPro Elite (2x6vMR11 halogen @7.2v, 8ah NiMH battery), 1st gen MS, 2nd gen MS and various P7 and MCE flashlights. I may have forgotten some. I haven't bought anything in a few years and I'm thinking of getting something new now, which is why I was interested in this thread in the first place.

Right now I favor the Dinotte XML-AA (for touring purposes and reduction of carried cells and chargers), the Dinotte XML3 cause it's a bright mofo, and the Gemini Olympia, in no particular order. The Dinottes are initially expensive but usually cheaper in the long run due to sound construction and good reliability. I've owned a D-140R tailight for 3 years now and it is superb. The Gemini appears to be a very good value but I suspect the guts of the thing are likely MS, which gives me pause to buy. However, ActionLED mitigates my concern with a real warranty. I almost pulled the trigger when the Olympia was offered at a couponed introductory price of $80 for the head alone. I have MS batteries and some DX 2s-18650 cell holders and 18650 "flame" cells for my own DIY bike light power source.

As you may surmise, I don't throw a lot of money at lights, and I take the time to learn about them so that I (hopefully) don't make costly errors. The best light I've owned was the Marwi, in that it lit my way for the lowest $/mile used. I like LEDs and Li batteries, but there's a lot to be said for user-replaceable lamps and rechargeable batteries that actually last for years.

The only (bad) experience I have with BR is in 2 threads on mtbr. To my mind, they keep trying to peddle some mediocre lights to us here at mtbr, and I don't mind being the one to step up and call BS on them.


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

*Update and Some Qustions Answered*

Greetings All,

Sorry I have not been on in a hot minute - been not feeling well :sad:. We are sorry that we have not got the beam shots up yet. Our pro photographer has been busy - We plan on getting some better photos up Saturday night. The beam shot posted earlier in this thread was taken with a camera phone. People asked to see a photo and that was the best we could produce at the moment. We took down the side by side comparisons with the light on and off because the camera phone used does not represent what it does in reality.

To reiterate - the New SPEED II will not be available until after May 1st.

We plan on posting a video putting the light head underwater for 10 minutes. Is that standard for a good waterproofing test? Any other suggestions of what you would like to see for waterproofing?

As to my conversation with seeker - I apologize for acting in an unprofessional manner . Some of my remarks were stated out of emotion :eekster:. I'm sorry - Could you find it in your heart to forgive me?

We love Mtbr and the opportunity it provides to grow the bicycle community. We understand our reputation has taken some bad hits on these forum boards. We are restrapping our boots and are truly committed to being a responsible and fun loving member of this forum community.

@Cat-man-do,


Cat-man-do said:


> @Bikeray....Mike, can you tell us more about the
> side holes. Secondly, can you tell us how hard the emitter is being driven? What's the current draw on high?


The side holes are cooling vents to keep the light head cool. This helps it from stepping down to a lower mode. It stays cool to the touch. We were at the 2012 Fat Tire festival in Ocala Florida a couple of months ago - we had the original SPEED II running on high for hours. Patrons were surprised at how cool it remained to the touch. No light is emitted from the cooling holes. The emitter is being driven @ 90+%. The current draw on high is 5.2 mah.

@Rakuman


Rakuman said:


> *My first impressions about this light is NO WAY that will work on the bars with that bar mount. First bump you hit, with that mount so far in the rear of the light its going to be facing down... Bikeray made the same mistake with the first run of the RayIII I had to jerry rig a mount to get that one to work... with that spot pattern I would maybe consider it for a helmet light but it also looks to be quite large I would love to see it next to a 808 or a Xera to compare size.*


You are right about the light not being for the handlebar. It's primary use is for the helmet.

Here is a comparison with the MJ 808(I didn't know he had one) that was originally engineered by Patrick back a few years ago. 

















Quick question that I have been wondering - What does MJ stand for?

@znomit


znomit said:


> Does it come with a free T-shirt and water bottle?


Sorry it does not come with a t-shirt or water bottle.

If you have any other questions, concerns, comments, or I have missed your question - feel free to ask.

ONE LOVE - https://images.paraorkut.com/img/pics/images/b/bob_marley_one_love-9354.jpg

Michael Shinosky
Web Director - BikeRayUSA


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## Rider445 (Apr 18, 2012)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> The current draw on high is 5.2 mah.


 This must be another one of BR's super secret technologies.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> @Cat-man-do,
> The current draw on high is 5.2 mah.
> 
> @znomit
> Sorry it does not come with a t-shirt or water bottle.


No T-shirt is a dealbreaker.

ps, proof reading is a really really good idea.


----------



## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

znomit said:


> No T-shirt is a dealbreaker.
> 
> ps, proof reading is a really really good idea.


 What needs proof reading?


----------



## Rider445 (Apr 18, 2012)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> What needs proof reading?


If you need explaining, you shouldn't be selling lights... or anything electrical for that matter. :nono: But then again,we already knew that.


----------



## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> The emitter is being driven @ 90+%. The current draw on high is* 5.2 mah*.


Well this settle the argument. At 5.2 mah, the Speed II is not 1000 lumens.after all


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Rider445 said:


> If you need explaining, you shouldn't be selling lights... or anything electrical for that matter. :nono: But then again,we already knew that.


Please enlighten me? :idea:


----------



## Rider445 (Apr 18, 2012)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> Please enlighten me? :idea:


I can't. You need to go back to school, finish 8th grade.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> What needs proof reading?


Ok, if you can't figure that out from reading my post I would suggest you get it proof read by one of your technical guys (or the guy in china who sells them to you). Maybe someone who knows the difference between an XP-L XM-G and an XM-L. Perhaps this guy can give us a detailed explanation as to how those itty bitty little holes do a miraculous job of cooling the light head, and how you get 1000lm out of an XM-L at 90% drive current.

Can someone post a link to that old BR thread where things turned to custard?


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## Rider445 (Apr 18, 2012)

znomit said:


> Perhaps this guy can give us a detailed explanation as to how those itty bitty little holes do a miraculous job of cooling the light head


It's for water cooling, znomit. They expect the head to fill up with water and provide cooling.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Rider445 said:


> It's for water cooling, znomit. They expect the head to fill up with water and provide cooling.


Ohhh, them some smart injineers. :thumbsup:

Does it come with a little brush for getting the mud out


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

colleen c said:


> Well this settle the argument. At 5.2 mah, the Speed II is not 1000 lumens.after all


True, but the run-time is over 2000 hours.


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

After reading through this thread, I do not feel the urge to go out and buy a bikeray light. I am sorry bikerayusa-michael, but you haven't done the company any favors with your postings here letting your emotions get the best of you and all. Maybe take a deep breath and try again.


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

On a more serious note. I do find the Speed II interesting. If the beam is as narrow as claimed, it should be one of the more better throwing light out there without having to go custom build. Right now the current list of a good thrower for helmet seem to be the 808E xml, or KD C8 torch. Presently, I received a Maelstrom X10 and used it as a helmet light. The spot is rather intense and it has no function what so ever for the first 100 to 200 feet becasue of the limited spill. beyond that, the spread of the spot start to light up in the far distant. I see the Speed II as a light for a different specific design. If the spot is indeed hot and intense similar to the KD C8 or Maelstrom X10, than I think it will go along fine if used in conjuction to something like a very intense flood light. 

There were some mistake in the original spec and posting of the current draw which somewhat lower the credit rating of the the design of the light and company, but I guess that is something betwween the Engineer and Customer Service/Sales at Bikeray need to comb out the mess and get a better consistency with their posted listings and rating. However I do give credit for Bikeray for adventuring into an area where other few has done but yet there is a demand for a thrower light.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

I'm with cat on this. My MS 816 has performed solidly for the better part of a year, as have the four batteries. As such my reservations about purchasing a cheap Chinese light have significantly reduced since I first started considering them. 

Yes, it is a bit sad that by purchasing them we are not supporting our own countries, but moral arguments aside, the Chinese light do indeed offer good value for money, tend to be reasonably reliable, and have enough light to get you out at night. 
As such, even if they are prepackaged Chinese lights, and the beam is as tight as it looks in the beamshot, I'm definitely considering it. I really need to tight beam. If they are as reliable as my 816, then that will do.


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## Wombat (Jan 25, 2004)

colleen c said:


> On a more serious note. I do find the Speed II interesting. If the beam is as narrow as claimed, it should be one of the more better throwing light out there without having to go custom build. Right now the current list of a good thrower for helmet seem to be the 808E xml, or KD C8 torch. Presently, I received a Maelstrom X10 and used it as a helmet light. The spot is rather intense and it has no function what so ever for the first 100 to 200 feet becasue of the limited spill. beyond that, the spread of the spot start to light up in the far distant. I see the Speed II as a light for a different specific design. If the spot is indeed hot and intense similar to the KD C8 or Maelstrom X10, than I think it will go along fine if used in conjuction to something like a very intense flood light.


Colleen

The $45 MS XM-L replicas from DX also have a very tight spot, and many people thought it was too tight.

I bought this one: T6 Water Resistant XML-T6 3-Mode 930-Lumen White LED Bike Light with Battery Pack Set - Free Shipping - DealExtreme to use on my helmet and eventually put another reflector in it to broaden it a bit. The battery isn't waterproof but other than that it seems OK far.

Tim


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

colleen c said:


> On a more serious note..... I see the Speed II as a light for a different specific design. If the spot is indeed hot and intense similar to the KD C8 or Maelstrom X10, than I think it will go along fine if used in conjuction to something like a very intense flood light.
> 
> There were some mistake in the original spec and posting of the current draw which somewhat lower the credit rating of the the design of the light and company, but I guess that is something betwween the Engineer and Customer Service/Sales at Bikeray need to comb out the mess and get a better consistency with their posted listings and rating. However I do give credit for Bikeray for adventuring into an area where other few has done but yet there is a demand for a thrower light.


Yes, I agree...and there is a demand for a thrower light. I've been reading the reviews on the Xeccon lamp on which the Bikeray version is based. No startling revelations on workmanship or current draw but most of the reviewers agree it has an intense spot beam pattern.

No one yet really knows the deal on the side holes other than they are for cooling. I too would like to know what happens to water that gets inside or mud for that matter as zmomit has suggested. Not that it's likely to see mud mounted on a helmet but it is a possibility. I figure if the lamp TRUELY IS WATERPROOF than rising it out ( if some dirt gets inside ) wouldn't be a big problem. If you can sit the lamp underwater for 10 min ( as claimed ) then it should be fine to rinse it off.

Hopefully when Bikeray starts selling these again they will offer a "LIGHT HEAD ONLY", option. If so it shouldn't take long before one of us "throw monkeys" buys one and gives it a once over.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Wombat said:


> Colleen
> 
> The $45 MS XM-L replicas from DX also have a very tight spot, and many people thought it was too tight.
> 
> ...


Yeah got one of those. OK for highway road riding(not as good as my B&M Cyo) but not so useful on the trails or twisty mountain roads. I put a diffuser on mine which helped a lot.
Its nothing special, just a large smooth reflector to give a tight beam.

Oh, on the 4 mode speed2 from medium do we need to cycle through low and flash to get back to high?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

znomit said:


> Yeah got one of those. OK for highway road riding(not as good as my B&M Cyo) but not so useful on the trails or twisty mountain roads. I put a diffuser on mine which helped a lot.
> Its nothing special, just a large smooth reflector to give a tight beam.
> 
> Oh, on the 4 mode speed2 from medium do we need to cycle through low and flash to get back to high?


Huh?! You bought from D/X!..._*cough*..*cough*_...

Yeah, I almost bought one of those ( D/X longer reflector version ) myself but I just couldn't deal with not having a true mid-mode. I looked all over trying to find one of those ( longer reflector version ) clones that had a mid-mode but so far they're all 3-mode ( H-L-F ).  When I bought the MS 808E from Geoman one of big selling points was the true 3-mode ( H-M-L ) on one menu with a extra flash mode on a separate *push and hold* menu.

Likely the Speed II will be 4-mode...in one menu....Dang it! Why do most of these "Thrower" lamps have to be 3-mode ( H-L-F ). MEDIUM MODE! WE NEED MEDIUM MODES!...


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

*NEW SPEED II Night Shots*

Here we go folks.

First to clear up the The current draw on high - is between 2.3A -2.5A after being driven for a hour.

Here are the photos we took last night - Sunday April 22nd 2012:

Setup:
Camera: Canon EOS 5D
Setting: Full manual
Exposure: 4 seconds
Aperture: F4.0
Focus: Manual
White Balance: Daylight
ISO: Specified with each photo between 100-400

Conditions: Clear Skies, Temp 68 Degrees
Time: 11:30pm-12:30am

Cones: 30 Feet Apart - 100 Yards - No Reflective Tape

SPEED II iso 100









SPEED II iso 200









SPEED II iso 320









SPEED II iso 400









SPEED II iso 100 from 20 feet









SPEED II iso 100 against shed 8 feet long from 30 feet









SPEED II iso 100 fence 25 feet away









SPEED II iso 100 30 feet away









SPEED II iso 1250 Spill Shot


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

@BRUSA... Don't want to be pedantic, but standard settings are
ISO 100
F4
6 seconds...

Any reason for choosing 4s exposure? Admittedly, MTBRs arbitrary 6s is an odd timing, with standard EV timings being 1,2,4,8,15,30 and 60 seconds, but still... it might have been more prudent showing photos at the accepted standard settings considering how much flak you guys have taken for some unfortunate technical oopsies to date.

To get MTBR standard camera settings equivalent @4s you'd need an ISO of 150, just between your first two photos. An F Stop of around 3.2-3.5 would also do, I suppose...

The beam pattern looks less tight than I thought it would, and it's certainly no "laser". As expected, there is a certain amount of flood and this light would but entirely usable with even a half decent bar flood... 

I'd be interested in it... if it weren't blue.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

My thoughts....I agree with Grax, ISO 100 is the way to go here. Exposure should have been set to no more than 3 sec. F stop around 3.

To be honest though I think the second picture ( ISO 200 ) is likely showing a more accurate representation of what you would see but I am speculating of course. I say this because the camera looks like it was placed about 50ft. behind the person holding the lamp. It would of been much better to have had the camera just to the side of the lamp ( head high ) to get full *"Point of view"* exposure. With the camera closer no doubt in my mind the ISO 100 shot would have looked much better. Cameras already have a limited ability to gather light. Setting it back 50ft. from the lamp isn't going to help matters any.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Nice frosty ground makes comparisons kinda difficult too.


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

Little bit confuse here. I copy this directly from the 2012 Light shootout page. It shows the exposure as F4 and 4seconds. I always thought this was the standard.

Camera: Canon PowerShot G9
Setting: Full manual
ISO: 100
Exposure: 4 seconds
Aperture: F4.0
Focus: Manual
White Balance: Daylight

*EDIT:*
After carefully re- reading GraXXor post #74, I see the reason why for the 4sec because of odd ISO value or odd Fstop.

New question:
My older Fuji S5000 does not have ISO 100, so I've been using ISO 200 but compensated by lowering exposure from 4 sec to 2sec. Is that acceptable?


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Though oftentimes I find beamshots to not truly represent the quality of the beam, those shots look like it would be really good as a bar light to me. I really like the sharp cutoff at the beam edge, with just enough flood near the bike but good punch down the trail.


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Here's a little better angle. Also comparison to MS MJ-808

SPEED II iso 100









808 iso 100









SPEED II iso 200









808 iso 200









SPEED II iso 320









808 iso 320









SPEED II iso 400









808 iso 400


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

GraXXoR said:


> @BRUSA... Don't want to be pedantic, but standard settings are
> ISO 100
> F4
> 6 seconds...
> ...


We were just following the settings stated here: 2012 Bike Lights Shootout - Trail Beam Pattern Photos | Mountain Bike Review and here: 2012 Bike Lights Shootout - Backyard Beam Pattern Photos | Mountain Bike Review

I'm confused? Did we miss something? Sorry if we did. Since we were using a different camera and because of the less bounce off from lack of surroundings and not being able to find a straight trail line over 100 yards - I decided to post up all the ISO settings to help give some feel. I personally feel - that what you really see is between ISO 200-320 (but then again I work for BikeRayUSA)

If you notice in some of the shots- there is a person (Thanks GF) with a BikeRayUSA blue jacket past the 100 yard cone (maybe 15 feet). And in some of the photos you can notice a little bit of a reflection coming from a sign on the right that is about another 100 yards or so. Around the 100 yard mark - the trails turns slightly to the right and slopes about 30 degrees down.

I was wondering about that reflection was - so I went out there with my camera phone to check it out and have recorded my mini adventure. I will have posted on our youtube channel sometime soon.

As well as the SPEED II attached to the front end of the BikeRayUSA truck traveling down some dark highway roads at speeds of 55 MPH. We had no trouble seeing what was ahead - I noted to Patrick that this light was a little brighter then my GF's 2002 Honda...lol.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

colleen c said:


> Little bit confuse here. I copy this directly from the 2012 Light shootout page. It shows the exposure as F4 and 4seconds. I always thought this was the standard.
> 
> Camera: Canon PowerShot G9
> Setting: Full manual
> ...


My old Sony Cybershot has a set night setting at ISO100, F stop 3.8 and 2 sec exposure. I'm surprised at the 4 sec. exposure setting used by MTBR. I always thought my camera did a good job at showing what is actual seen. At ISO 200 I have no idea what the photo would look like but would certainly be brighter, even at 2 sec.

Micheal, thanks for the new photos.


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Cat-man-do said:


> My old Sony Cybershot has a set night setting at ISO100, F stop 3.8 and 2 sec exposure. I'm surprised at the 4 sec. exposure setting used by MTBR. I always thought my camera did a good job at showing what is actual seen. At ISO 200 I have no idea what the photo would look like but would certainly be brighter, even at 2 sec.
> 
> Micheal, thanks for the new photos.


You are welcome Cat-Man-Do


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

TERRIBLE NEWS BIKERAY!!!

The clones have arrived :eekster:

1/3 the price and better cooling 
There is some confusion over whether it has a P7 or XML but whatever it is its 1600LM 

CREE XML XM-L T6 1600 Lumens LED Bicycle Lamp Bike Light HeadLamp Headlight New | eBay


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

znomit said:


> TERRIBLE NEWS BIKERAY!!!
> 
> The clones have arrived :eekster: ....


Interesting....1600 lumen :eekster:....6400mAh battery ( yeah, right.. )... mid-mode? who needs a stinking mid-mode anyway? :ihih:....warranty? who needs a stinking warranty?...rft:

Wow! Maybe I'll go out and buy one of these before they are all sold...( *NOT!*....:nono: )


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

znomit said:


> TERRIBLE NEWS BIKERAY!!!
> 
> The clones have arrived :eekster:
> 
> ...


I can buy a cloned IPad for 50 bucks if I looked hard enough. Would I buy it? Only if I wanted to hit my head against the wall :madman:

There are even clones of clones in China now:
Apple Clones | Chinese firm clones Apple's mystique - Los Angeles Times
"It says something about Meizu," Pei said. "It's strange that people want to imitate a product that isn't that well known."


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Cat-man-do said:


> Interesting....1600 lumen :eekster:....6400mAh battery ( yeah, right.. )... mid-mode? who needs a stinking mid-mode anyway? :ihih:....warranty? who needs a stinking warranty?...rft:
> 
> Wow! Maybe I'll go out and buy one of these before they are all sold...( *NOT!*....:nono: )


Yes, even the marketing accuracy is at the same level as the Speed II


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Cat-man-do said:


> Interesting....1600 lumen :eekster:....6400mAh battery ( yeah, right.. )... mid-mode? who needs a stinking mid-mode anyway? :ihih:....warranty? who needs a stinking warranty?...rft:
> 
> Wow! Maybe I'll go out and buy one of these before they are all sold...( *NOT!*....:nono: )





znomit said:


> Yes, even the marketing accuracy is at the same level as the Speed II


znomit = Sheldon Cooper on BBT - but sense of sarcasm is getting better with each new episode


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Much better trigger switch and longer runtimes. Water flows out the bottom - unlike the clones.


----------



## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

*4 Modes Demo*


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> znomit = Sheldon Cooper on BBT - but sense of sarcasm is getting better with each new episode


That's why I hang out here. Ya never know what is right around the corner 

I don't mean to get too off thread here, but I find the clone war very fascinating. I had a chance to travel oversea to Hong Kong during the time when the Ipod MP3 came out. I went to a electronic flea market at Hong Kong and it looks like a Ebay shoppinng mall full of clone electronics goodies.

I was not too surprise to read the post where Michael stated how Bikeray and Magicshine was neighbor of each other and the copy war was in effect. However what I don't understand is where is all these clone bicycle light is popping out from? Is it like there is a machine shop with a Milling and Lathe machine in the back of every Coffee shop selling Milk Tea drink out in the front? Are these clone mostly homemade machined and sold through Ebay? Sorry for the off thread question but curiuos mind is wandering.


----------



## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

colleen c said:


> That's why I hang out here. Ya never know what is right around the corner
> 
> I don't mean to get too off thread here, but I find the clone war very fascinating. I had a chance to travel oversea to Hong Kong during the time when the Ipod MP3 came out. I went to a electronic flea market at Hong Kong and it looks like a Ebay shoppinng mall full of clone electronics goodies.
> 
> I was not too surprise to read the post where Michael stated how Bikeray and Magicshine was neighbor of each other and the copy war was in effect. However what I don't understand is where is all these clone bicycle light is popping out from? Is it like there is a machine shop with a Milling and Lathe machine in the back of every Coffee shop selling Milk Tea drink out in the front? Are these clone mostly homemade machined and sold through Ebay? Sorry for the off thread question but curiuos mind is wandering.


I'd wager there are only a few places they are made and you put in your order w/ your design changes and they produce them. However, the basic shell is always the same save a cooling hole here or there.

Either you go cheap and hope or pay more for the warranty. I bought one of those $43 cheap clones last Oct and so far no issue. Use it on the helmet. Yeah, basically a spot but I can peer into the bushes/trees to see what's looking at me (or maybe stalking me).


----------



## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


>


This video is not a very good advertisement for the Speed 2, and it's perhaps even worse than the first one. It looks like the Speed 2 only works well if everyone you meet happens to be standing ten feet away in white pants. I suspect you've managed to make a mediocre bike light light look even worse with these videos.

Since I'm on the subject of product video, when do we get to see the "water immersion test" of the Speed 2 you mentioned over two weeks ago in post #54:



BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> "We plan on posting a video putting the light head underwater for 10 minutes. Is that standard for a good waterproofing test? Any other suggestions of what you would like to see for waterproofing?"


You've dunk-tested the BikeRay 4 in two videos now, which no one even requested as far as I can tell, probably because the average mtbr.com reader lost interest after last May's review. Kudos for finally fixing your flagship product only a year after it's debut. I think most bike lights would not prove to be as watertight as the BR4 appearing in your videos. I hope all the BR4 lights you sell are equally waterproof.

I'm going to take a wild guess that you've already tried dunk-testing a Speed 2, and that it did poorly under these conditions, and this is the reason why we haven't see the promised video.


----------



## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

colleen c said:


> ...Are these clone mostly homemade machined and sold through Ebay?





mb323323 said:


> ...I'd wager there are only a few places they are made and you put in your order w/ your design changes and they produce them...


Magicshine and Bikeray are probably simply parts assemblers; they order parts which someone else makes, put them together and stick them in a pretty box.


----------



## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

colleen c said:


> That's why I hang out here. Ya never know what is right around the corner
> 
> I don't mean to get too off thread here, but I find the clone war very fascinating. I had a chance to travel oversea to Hong Kong during the time when the Ipod MP3 came out. I went to a electronic flea market at Hong Kong and it looks like a Ebay shoppinng mall full of clone electronics goodies.
> 
> I was not too surprise to read the post where Michael stated how Bikeray and Magicshine was neighbor of each other and the copy war was in effect. However what I don't understand is where is all these clone bicycle light is popping out from? Is it like there is a machine shop with a Milling and Lathe machine in the back of every Coffee shop selling Milk Tea drink out in the front? Are these clone mostly homemade machined and sold through Ebay? Sorry for the off thread question but curiuos mind is wandering.


The way communist China works - they say "this city - electronics" "that city - plastics" and so forth. When the USA opened up trading with China - we introduced them to capitalism. Now they are growing quickly. The problem is - they are using up all the oil.

Good news though - It has been said that we will soon be the number one exporter of energy in the next two years because, of our natural gas reserves - which we have the most of in the world - and might bring us out of this economy. In the 80's it was computers, the 90's - the internet (even after the bubble bust) and now the green movement and natural gas (hopefully).

As it has been for the last 10 years or so - we end up given the Chinese our technology - which they are far behind on. They are great at production - but their technology know how is severely lacking.

Simply stated - the cheap clones are using low grade batteries and low grade materials. They end up copying our engineering and start producing product as cheaply as possible - meaning low end materials and standards. With the advent of E-Bay - Companies such as those in Australia get offers from these Chinese companies who produce sub standard cheaply made product and - off they go - drop shipping from Hong Kong.

We get emails at least once a week from Chinese companies telling us they want our business. Example:


> From [email protected]
> To sales
> Reply-To [email protected]
> Date 17.03.2012 02:12
> ...


We are moving away from BikeRay in China and are now working very closely with Xeccon. And here is one of the reasons:



> Brother .
> 
> How are you!
> 
> ...


There it is - We know what good quality is - we are providing quality products. We rigorously worked with BikeRay China - but they didn't listen to our requests for better quality and ending up selling 500 BayRay III lights to GeoMan which we rejected. They finally listened to our request and produced a better Ray III with the O-ring mounting system instead of the screw mount that keeps braking. We have a few (maybe three) of those parts left from the GeoMan problem if anyone needs one. But, we won't switch those Ray III lightheads over to the o-ring system because they are too heavy to perform properly.

We went the extra mile and decided to help geoman fix his lights at no cost. Example:



> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: GeoManGear Warranty Lightheads
> Date: 23.01.2012 17:34
> From: [email protected]
> ...


Oh yeah almost forgot - does anyone have the answer to what MJ in the product name of MagicShine stands for?

Here:



> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:12:37 +0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: the contract
> ...


Why didn't Patrick go with MagicShine? - Because they were bluffing on exclusive rights to the USA. We gave them the technology of how to build the 808 and they went behind our backs and started selling to others.

Unfortunately BikeRay has done the same to us. Gemini lights? Made by BikeRay China.

This is why we have decided to go with Xeccon - a well respected OEM manufacturer of a number of products to a number of respected companies outside of the flashlight and bike light industry.

And as for all the political accusations made by some that Xeccon had shills on this site. Plain old speculation with no proof. You have to question some who call the kettle "black" as being that same "black" kettle. Why do I call some out as being shills - well because I am a shill - I help promote BikeRayUSA products. No one will question that.

Does that answer your question Colleen? lol. By the way - we sent her a light free of charge to test out in her integrated sphere and give her review. I'm sure she is quite happy to be receiving another light system to add to her collection and to test it from a customer standpoint. She has been getting good feedback from others as well in how to make it better. Which we like. Might be something for her to run with in the near future as a product. Who know's. We encourage her to give her most unbiased review - so we can keep making lights better and better for the end user.

This is why we like Mtbr.com and the outlet they provide. We are very thankful for the crew here as they met every request we have asked them in a very timely fashion. Big props to Natasha, Jim Thomas, and Valerie on the backend side as well as many others I have not been in communicaton with. We should all be giving these guys a round of applause for their efforts :thumbsup: Two thumbs up :thumbsup:

As for testing the SPEED II lighthead underwater? - we just finished final assembly yesterday. Patrick is at the Full Moon Race in Miami tonight. Ya know - Helping support endurance and night races. Giving out demo lights for people to use for the race 

We mainly generate our business by sponsoring events and selling wholesale to bike shops in the USA, Canada, Mexico, and South America so far. And we get more and more requests from bike shops everyday to ask to carry our lights. This while at the same time trying to help get the night riding races to full strength. Did I hear the International Speedway in Daytona Beach (where we live) being mentioned the other day while I was in the office? lol....quite the event that would be with all the lights turned off and tons of dirt and trees on the track and inner circle. And the prize pool - boy oh boy. It's in the works for sure - hopefully we can make it happen. We have been in communication with them for a little while now. Maybe if there is enough interest from fellow Mt bikers to start buzzing it up - the directors at the International SpeedWay (Daytona 500), will take notice.

Oh the water test - right...lol..almost forgot. We will have that test up sometime next week. Probably for 30 minutes per the IP code standards. IP Code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (if you can stand to sit there and watch a light sit there - oh then there is looking at my scary mug occasionally ) under water and then taken apart by one of our techs to check for water ingress.

Those videos I post up. Just fun gorilla marketing. People know how a camera works and how hard it is to replicate that to real life. If I turned up the settings to show more exposure - someone would be crying about that. From a marketing aspect - who business it is really anyways but our own - ya know?

But anyways - just laying it out all on the table for you guys. Trying to be honest and transparent without offending anyone. And if I did - my apologizes.

ONE










Support a great case: Sevenly | Do Good - Cause & Charity T-shirts | Tee-Shirts that Raise Money for Charities | Sevenly, Support a Cause Where I got the shirt. https://www.facebook.com/sevenly.org


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Yet another fantastically stupid UI. :nono:

How long have you guys been telling customers they really want to shuffle through low/and flash to get back to high from medium? 

Have we come around to your way of thinking? NO :madman:


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> The way communist China works - they say "this city - electronics" "that city - plastics" and so forth. When the USA opened up trading with China - we introduced them to capitalism. Now they are growing quickly. The problem is - they are using up all the oil.
> 
> Good news though - It has been said that we will soon be the number one exporter of energy in the next two years because, of our natural gas reserves - which we have the most of in the world - and might bring us out of this economy. In the 80's it was computers, the 90's - the internet (even after the bubble bust) and now the green movement and natural gas (hopefully).
> 
> ...


Wow.

Dirty laundry day?

Back on topic, I'm sure BR pays the premium $ for the deluxe assembly chain where they use thermal compound to assemble the light head.


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

znomit said:


> Wow.
> 
> Dirty laundry day?
> 
> Back on topic, I'm sure BR pays the premium $ for the deluxe assembly chain where they use thermal compound to assemble the light head.


Thanks for the insight into Speed 2 construction.

The leak-prone air cooling vents could be eliminated if the reflector actually had significant contact with the shell. In my MS lights, the reflector has very little contact area with the shell. I stuffed Al foil into the void between reflector and shell in an amused effort to improve heat transfer. It's clear from examination that the designer completely failed to grasp the importance of heat transfer in a high-power led light.

The air-cooling vent is a bold idea, but I think most would not choose holes in the shell after considering the probability of eventual water intrusion. O-rings don't last forever, especially when subjected to heat. I think vents located at 6:00 and 12:00 would yield better convection cooling when moving slowly or not at all, and water could then drain from the light.

Am I the only one who prefers the cable to exit from rear, rather than front, then looped around? This bugs me more than the HMLF mode cycle.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

seeker said:


> Thanks for the insight into Speed 2 construction.
> 
> *The leak-prone air cooling vents could be eliminated if the reflector actually had significant contact with the shell. In my MS lights, the reflector has very little contact area with the shell. I stuffed Al foil into the void between reflector and shell in an amused effort to improve heat transfer. It's clear from examination that the designer completely failed to grasp the importance of heat transfer in a high-power led light.
> 
> ...


You make some good points. The design of the Speed II ( or cloned version ) looks as though the reflector is designed to function as a heat sink and to contact more surface area around the emitter than what you would see in a typical set-up. You have to admit it doesn't look anything like your typical cone-style reflector. Perhaps this works better than is expected. I would think having air directly move over the internal heat sink can only enhance the cooling effect ( heat to outside via the back of the light and heat to outside via the internal heat sink/ cooling vents. )

You also raise the question of how having air vents on the outer shell will effect the ingress of water. This would be a major concern if you occasionally ride in rain. Seeing that the seller is willing to test this ( as will others I'm sure ) my hope is that if I bought one it would hold up to any incidental rain that I might happen to encounter. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Speed II have holes underneath ( for drainage ) ?? I sure hope it does.

Continuing about the reflector; My drop in torches have reflectors that screw on to the emitter pill. Without the reflector screwed on properly the emitters burn up. This is because the reflector on these had a secondary function to act as a heat sink. Even so these little torches have little outer surface area in direct contact with the reflector. Regardless, without this function the drop-in emitter burns up, go figure. This is why we still try to add additional foil or copper tape to help the pill contact the outer shell to better transfer heat. Hopefully this "inner heat-sink" on the Speed II adds significant cooling thus keeping the emitter from jumping to lower modes prematurely when hot. Can't wait to hear some user reviews.


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> Does that answer your question Colleen? lol. By the way - we sent her a light free of charge to test out in her integrated sphere and give her review. I'm sure she is quite happy to be receiving another light system to add to her collection and to test it from a customer standpoint. She has been getting good feedback from others as well in how to make it better. Which we like. Might be something for her to run with in the near future as a product. Who know's. We encourage her to give her most unbiased review - so we can keep making lights better and better for the end user.


That just about answer my question. A little bit more insight than I needed to know but otherwise doable and very interesting 



Cat-man-do said:


> Hopefully this "inner heat-sink" on the Speed II adds significant cooling thus keeping the emitter from jumping to lower modes prematurely when hot. Can't wait to hear some user reviews.


I'm planning to do some kind of heat test on it to see how much these vents does contribute to the cooling. Not fully sure just yet how I will do it but I do have some ideas lurking in my head. :idea: The review will be a unbiased review. It's not like I will need the Speed II as a light to be use as a daily light because I already too many other lights, however the concept of the cooling vent and the idea of a tight beam does warrant for some interesting review.

So far Bikeray has kept words and according to shipment tracking, I should be receiving the Speed II late Tuesday or Wednesday free of charge for testing and review as Michael stated. Stay Tune..............


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

colleen c said:


> So far Bikeray has kept words and according to shipment tracking, I should be receiving the Speed II late Tuesday or Wednesday free of charge for testing and review as Michael stated. Stay Tune..............


You should pick up the 44$ DX one too and race em. 
T6 Smooth Crown Water Resistant XML-T6 3-Mode "1200-Lumen" White LED Bike Light with Battery Set - Free Shipping - DealExtreme


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> And as for all the political accusations made by some that Xeccon had shills on this site. Plain old speculation with no proof.


it's not a political accusation, it's a statement of fact

http://forums.mtbr.com/8544379-post13.html
(refers to removed shill post)

http://forums.mtbr.com/8551535-post10.html
(refers to removed shill post)

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/light-recommendation-forum-770366.html

not so much a shill post, more "using resources without buying an ad" post
http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/hi-all-your-suggestion-about-cable-light-774469.html

Michael, you're still not learning. Even if you have the PROOF that someone is lying, as a customer representative, calling them out on it is only going to make you look unprofessional. Doing so without proof is just dumb.

As for that sordid little peek behind the curtains of the Chinese bike light industry, it only makes me want to avoid buying _any_ Chinese light. It doesn't make your Chinese light look any better and just makes all of them look worse. You say that Xeccon is the shiz, yet those emails show that the previous manufacturer made junk. Why should we believe Xeccon is somehow any better? Because you tell us so?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

mattthemuppet said:


> .... Why should we believe Xeccon is somehow any better? Because you tell us so?


From what you've already said, why even ask the question when you already know the answer. 

Yeah, the _dirty laundry_ we didn't need to know about. You are also right about the Xeccon shills. To be perfectly honest though I read the forum ( probably ) more than most and I only saw maybe one of those posts. In short it means he's wrong. Does that mean he knew he was wrong and was lying? I don't know about anyone else but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Personally, I think he had no idea but that's just me.

In the mean time I put little faith in what anyone selling a Chinese made product has to say about a product that THEY are selling. This doesn't mean that the product is crap. It might be, it might not be. Few people selling ANYTHING are going to tell you their product is crap even if they knew it to be true. That's why you take anything the sellers say with a "grain of salt", as it has been already said. Now when the product develops a track record or a known user base...THEN, the seller has something to wave around and say, "Look at this!... Look at this"! So far that hasn't happened. Stuff like that takes time. In the mean time ( as consumers ) we need to exercise caution. I've always been one that believes the product needs to speak for itself. That's only going to happen when people start buying and then start talking about how the stuff holds up.

The Xeccon version of the Speed II ( and it's clones ) have been around for a while. That said, I can't recall hearing anything ( bad, good or otherwise ) about any Xeccon design ( or clone ) being a total piece of crap. I realize that doesn't mean a lot because I don't know everything but I'm just saying. If these things were leaking water and shorting out I would of thought I'd heard something about it WAY before now but Hey, that's just me. Now in reference to Xeccon products > _Usually if something stinks it has stunk before somewhere else._


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

znomit said:


> You should pick up the 44$ DX one too and race em.
> T6 Smooth Crown Water Resistant XML-T6 3-Mode "1200-Lumen" White LED Bike Light with Battery Set - Free Shipping - DealExtreme


Good idea, I bet there's not much practical difference. Just like I said repeatedly 2 weeks ago.



colleen c said:


> ... I should be receiving the Speed II late Tuesday or Wednesday free of charge for testing and review...


Great. It's about time someone with a little knowledge of bike lights reviewed this thing for readers, because we're clearly not learning much from BikeRay.


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Speed II have holes underneath ( for drainage ) ?


If it does, then it's news to me. I can see why you might think this, since the BR4 light you reviewed had a large drain hole surrounding the operating button.

Znomit's picture of a Speed2 clone doesn't clearly show any "drain hole", only vents at 3:00 and 9:00, which will trap rain in the bottom between the reflector and outer shell. The only thing keeping standing water from entering emitter/pill/driver compartment is an o-ring, which is why I earlier suggested vents at 6:00 and 12:00 would be better to drain the light, plus better convection.

This "drain hole" discussion is academic, since most potential buyers are not going to buy a Speed2 with holes in the shell, since BikeRay has already demonstrated a lack of foresight in designing waterproofness into their lights. This would be like someone today building a Titanic 2 with gigantic holes in the hull two feet above waterline, and claiming the holes are for better viewing from steerage. They would sell few tickets, and only to the ones ignorant of the pertinent history.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

seeker said:


> ....*Znomit's picture of a Speed2 clone doesn't clearly show any "drain hole", *only vents at 3:00 and 9:00, which will trap rain in the bottom between the reflector and outer shell. The only thing keeping standing water from entering emitter/pill/driver compartment is an o-ring, which is why I earlier suggested vents at 6:00 and 12:00 would be better to drain the light, plus better convection. ...


I enhanced the picture ( below ) that Znomit provided, keep in mind this is the Xeccon or cloned Xeccon. Not sure if this helps but something is there. To me it looks like an entry port for the wire...:skep: Usually ports like this use a rubber ( what'schmacall'it ) to keep the wire from pulling out. Now if it doesn't have a drain hole you could remove the rubber ( or slide it down ) to help water drain if that was a potential issue ( If you ride in rain ).

I also notice a rather large O-ring on the back of the lamp. Likely used to keep water out. At least with this design everything looks user friendly. Disassembling the lamp should be simple. Hopefully when Colleen get's her's she will have more to say about this ( for good or bad ).


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Cat-man-do said:


> I enhanced the picture ( below ) that Znomit provided, keep in mind this is the Xeccon or cloned Xeccon.


Wow CAT, you gave it the full CSI treatment :thumbsup:

Now, it seems BikeRay USA are getting shipped an inferior product from their buddies in China. 

Xeccon actually make a much higher spec light. Perhaps this will be the SPEED III 

_Max Output: 1600 Lumens
Max Runtime: 5 hrs
Battery: 1 x 8.4v 6400mAh Battery Pack (include) 
Waterproof: Accord to IPX-8 standard. _

Cree T6 LED Bike Light S12 | Xeccon light manufacture, LED Flashlights & HID flashlights, Rechargeable Batteries & Flashlight Accessories

Heres a review...
The Xeccon S12 Bicycle light - a review in Four Parts

I personally think this is exceptional value at 44US$ 
I'll pick one up as soon as my 44$ MS clone dies. :smilewinkgrin:

Direct from the Xeccon shop:
Online Sale 1600 Lumen CREE XM-L T6 LED Bicycle Light Headlamp Xeccon S12


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

I still don't understand why you'd even have those holes there, drainage or not. They're not going to improve the cooling (and there are other ways of doing that better if needed) and they just provide an easy entry for water ingress. They're just gimmicks and damaging ones at that.


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

znomit said:


> You should pick up the 44$ DX one too and race em.
> T6 Smooth Crown Water Resistant XML-T6 3-Mode "1200-Lumen" White LED Bike Light with Battery Set - Free Shipping - DealExtreme


I had to think about this one before replying. I do not think it would be totally fair to do a comparison of both lights at this time. Maybe for beamshot comparison will be ok but there are differnce between the two package such as the battery pack and warranty that raises the question of just how much a comparison should be done between the two units. Dunno, this will be like comaring the Original Magicshine 808 P7 with the much more expensive Lupin which was so similar in design. So for the time being, I will just do an evaluation with theSpeed II by itself as an package but some beamshot comparison. Perhaps later on when there are others reports of the DX clone, then we can reconsider?


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## colleen c (May 28, 2011)

mattthemuppet said:


> I still don't understand why you'd even have those holes there, drainage or not. They're not going to improve the cooling (and there are other ways of doing that better if needed) and they just provide an easy entry for water ingress. They're just gimmicks and damaging ones at that.


We will soon find out 

I need a little poll and info here. What do most folks here consider as a climbing speed? 5mph for 5 to 10 minutes? I just want to see if those vent hole will help cooling during a climb up an incline.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

colleen c said:


> We will soon find out
> 
> I need a little poll and info here. What do most folks here consider as a climbing speed? 5mph for 5 to 10 minutes? I just want to see if those vent hole will help cooling during a climb up an incline.


I think the 5 for 10 sounds good.

For what's been said most people want to know more about the side vents and how the lamp handles water. One thing to have water enter the housing ( by design ), another if there is no way for the water to get out on it's own.

A clone comparison would be interesting. To me the construct looks the same ( although I may be wrong about that ). Probably the only difference is the additional mode and maybe a better battery. Since the drivers are different there may be a difference in current draw ( on high ) so perhaps that would be interesting to know.

Last but not least, beam pics.......always an interesting subject. Since you have a C8 torch I would be real curious to see how the throw compares to the C8.


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> Much better trigger switch and longer runtimes. Water flows out the bottom - unlike the clones.





















Don't know why people think our product has the connector coming out of the front?


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Vancbiker said:


> Though oftentimes I find beamshots to not truly represent the quality of the beam, those shots look like it would be really good as a bar light to me. I really like the sharp cutoff at the beam edge, with just enough flood near the bike but good punch down the trail.


It is a good bar light also. Was riding around with it on the bar last night on the mean streets of Ormond Beach Florida..lol. Got the attention of the cars behind me for sure and they quickly switched lanes. I have not tried it heavily on the trails yet. Maybe tonight. Super busy with new orders.


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> Don't know why people think our product has the connector coming out of the front?


I must be "people". It is odd that you don't simply quote my posts and respond in the normal manner. You didn't have any problem using the quote button earlier when you were slinging the insinuations and insults at me.

Thanks for the clarification. I was looking at Znomit's clone picture when I commented, which doesn't clearly show a drain, and seems to have the cable exiting front. I did not watch #88, as I was focused on #89 at the time. Evidently I was not the only one who missed #88.


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## seeker (Feb 15, 2004)

znomit said:


> Heres a review...
> The Xeccon S12 Bicycle light - a review in Four Parts
> 
> I personally think this is exceptional value at 44US$
> ...


I think you've made a more compelling argument to buy a Xeccon S12 light in this single post, than BikeRay has managed in >2weeks in this entire thread.

BikeRay ought to hire subwoofer at cpf, pretty good review.

PS - How did you get $44 at the fllashlightbox.com link? I get $61 in a paypal cart (still a helluva lot cheaper than a Speed2 @ $140 shipped).


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## clewttu (May 16, 2007)

so is this meant for trail use? that beam seems too narrow to me to be useful...why would one want such a focused beam with such a pronounced cutoff?


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

clewttu said:


> why would one want such a focused beam with such a pronounced cutoff?


I like tight beams with a pronounced cutoff. I find that too much light in the near range reduces what I see at distance. Having light spread to the sides of the bike creates shadows from trailside brush, branches and other objects that I find eyecatching and a distraction.

P.S. I build my own lights so believe me I am not a Bikeray shill, user, rep or anything.


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## clewttu (May 16, 2007)

Vancbiker said:


> I like tight beams with a pronounced cutoff. I find that too much light in the near range reduces what I see at distance. Having light spread to the sides of the bike creates shadows from trailside brush, branches and other objects that I find eyecatching and a distraction.
> 
> P.S. I build my own lights so believe me I am not a Bikeray shill, user, rep or anything.


interesting, i ride tight twisty singletrack mostly, and found that the narrow beam on a dx magicshine clone sucked with the turns and dips in the trail compared to my other magicshine that was more of a flood, I ended up having to get one of the ebay wide angle lenses to make it useable (and it wasnt near as focused as this looks)...but i guess there are others that have your preferences as well or they wouldnt be making them as such

how do you ride in the daytime with all those distractions?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

clewttu said:


> interesting, i ride tight twisty singletrack mostly, and found that the narrow beam on a dx magicshine clone sucked with the turns and dips in the trail compared to my other magicshine that was more of a flood, I ended up having to get one of the ebay wide angle lenses to make it useable (and it wasnt near as focused as this looks)...but i guess there are others that have your preferences as well or they wouldnt be making them as such
> 
> how do you ride in the daytime with all those distractions?


When it comes to helmet lights it's more of a "What suits your need kind of thing". Most of the helmet lights I ride with have a medium width beam pattern. For most folks this is probably the way to go. However if you ride places that have nice long ( mostly straight ) descents where you get up to speed then you might want a little more throw. This is where this kind of lamp can be very useful ( if it indeed does throw more than the others ).


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## clewttu (May 16, 2007)

gotcha, makes sense


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

clewttu said:


> how do you ride in the daytime with all those distractions?


Ha. The daytime shadows move pretty slowly even compared to my meager riding speed


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

@BikerayUSA....Is the Speed II available as "Light-head only"? If so how much?


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Cat-man-do said:


> @BikerayUSA....Is the Speed II available as "Light-head only"? If so how much?


Yes - the price is $75 - Warranty of the lighthead alone is 90 days. PM if interested - we will have it available on the website soon.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> Yes - the price is $75 - Warranty of the lighthead alone is 90 days. PM if interested - we will have it available on the website soon.


Any reason why the light head wouldn't have a 1 yr warranty.

You sound reasonable and like a good person and honor and back your product but w/ a 90 day warranty, the differences between your light and the $40 delivered cheapie on Ebay now have narrowed.


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

mb323323 said:


> Any reason why the light head wouldn't have a 1 yr warranty.
> 
> You sound reasonable and like a good person and honor and back your product but w/ a 90 day warranty, the differences between your light and the $40 delivered cheapie on Ebay now have narrowed.


We are offering a 90 day warranty and not a 1 year warranty on the purchase of the lighthead only - as a service to our customers. We cannot guarantee our lighthead will work on other batteries because, it is specifically designed for our pcb board on our battery.

One way to look at it is like buying a new car with a full manufacturers warranty - if one would go and change the stock stereo to a high output system without changing the stock speakers that are not configured to the higher output system and the speakers blow out - the speakers would not be covered under the manufacturers warranty and thus void the agreement of said warranty.

Another way to look at it is with the warranty on a smartphone. Say one goes and buys an after market battery that is suppose to give extra runtime (or whatever reason) - and instead it overheats the smartphone and the smartphone malfunctions and/or burns out the components of the phone - the warranty is void and you are out a cellphone.

Does that make sense?


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## warimono (Nov 23, 2010)

No. 7.4V is 7.4V is 7.4V.
If something causes the battery to draw more amps then spec it's because of something in the light changing the resistance in that circuit. Li Ion and Li Poly batteries can fail sure, but with this type of light it is not attached to the light and thus failure wont damage the light head.

Sorry, I was rooting for you to come through over the folks essentially picking on you, but I am not a fan of seeing manufactures limit warranties based on frivolous excuses.



BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> Another way to look at it is with the warranty on a smartphone. Say one goes and buys an after market battery that is suppose to give extra runtime (or whatever reason) - and instead it overheats the smartphone and the smartphone malfunctions and/or burns out the components of the phone - the warranty is void and you are out a cellphone.
> 
> Does that make sense?


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Its perfectly ok to use random batteries BUT NOT FOR MORE THAN 90 DAYS.


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## AlienRFX (Sep 27, 2006)

warimono said:


> No. 7.4V is 7.4V is 7.4V.
> If something causes the battery to draw more amps then spec it's because of something in the light changing the resistance in that circuit. Li Ion and Li Poly batteries can fail sure, but with this type of light it is not attached to the light and thus failure wont damage the light head.
> 
> Sorry, I was rooting for you to come through over the folks essentially picking on you, but I am not a fan of seeing manufactures limit warranties based on frivolous excuses.


Not all rechargable Li-Ion batteries are created equal. Some have protection circuits, some don't. Some also reach a slightly higher voltage when fully charged. Some have more capacity than others. And then there are the chargers, and what state of charge they leave the battery in. Some can charge them to a voltage higher than the nominal stated voltage on the battery. All of these factors can affect how the driver circuits hold up over time.

One would assume that Bikeray takes all of this into account when designing or at least speccing the parts in the light kits. This leads to predictability in performance of the product. Changing what battery pack is used could change or reduce the predictability of how the light performs, thus it would make sense to decrease the length of the warranty period to take into account this decrease in predictability.

Now it is fully possible to build LED driver circuits that could handle any reasonable variability in the batteries used, but this drives up complexity and cost of the electronics. These lights are more budget oriented, though seem to perform well.

Anyhow I picked up a Ray 3 last weekend and so far I like it, and output is rediculous compared to my old Marwi Nightpro Extreme and Nightrider Digital Pro 12 E.

But voltage ratings on Li-Ion rechargeables can be alot like lumen ratings on lights, there is a target and then there is what you get, which all depends all parts of the manufacturing and design of the battery.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

I don't think the issue was with 7.4 volt batteries per say. Some dummy is likely to try to run the light head with a 14.8 battery or something bigger. That could definitely fry the driver. Then perhaps someone with an odd battery with the leads switched ( + and - switched ).

Then again this could happen regardless of what you order, light head only or the complete system. I agree, this decision to *lower the warranty (_ *for light head only_ ) has repercussions on the marketability of the light but hey, it's their call.

Now if BikerayUSA lowered the warranty on the entire system and dropped the price perhaps that might not be a better way to go....


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Just to clarify - the 90 warranty is for purchase of the light head only. We offer a 1 year full warranty on the light system.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Hey Michael, yeah, I can understand your point. Although, since there are so many batteries w/ these connectors, it might be difficult to police the purchase of the whole unit and then having the unit be fried w/ another battery that connects to it as Cat refers to.

Out of curiosity, what is assembled in China and what is assembled here.

All the light manufacturers have their work cut out for them. I have a friend who just purchased a clone XML T6 for $31 delivered. Yeah, a gamble but just shows how you have to differentiate yourselves from the competition. Not an easy task.

Good luck, thx for the info.


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