# rack vs, bags



## brianW. (Nov 15, 2010)

I have an El Mar and one reason why I bought it was the versatility of it for being ss or geared and possible bikepacking.

Have backpacked a bit (not for 10ish years because of family) but am very interested in bikepacking. Question is, rear rack or going with bags instead. I see in the future having a cross check/vaya or similar bike also. 

thanks, -brianW


----------



## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

Usually the decision maker for a beginner comes down to budget. Racks are generally cheaper then investing in a bag set, but unfortunately the newer el mars will only accept the Salsa Alternator rack. Given that that rack isn't "cheap" and I have yet to hear a glowing review it may be better to invest in at least a seat bag. A seat bag will also mount to most any future bike.

It also isn't cheap to get good enough gear to fit in the minimal space of a bag setup.

But if budget isn't a concern you have to decide what type of bikepacking you'd like to do. If your just going to be riding back roads, don't care how fast you are going, and wanna be cumfy when you get there racks and bag will work fine. If you plan to ride single track, and may encounter some steep grades then a light bag setup may be better.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Some threads on the subject:

http://forums.mtbr.com/surly/frame-bags-vs-racks-panniers-853889.html

http://forums.mtbr.com/bikepacking-bike-expedition/rear-racks-vs-frame-seat-bags-771659.html


----------



## SimpleJon (Mar 28, 2011)

A set of OMM or Tubus racks and Ortlieb front / rear roller panniers is as expensive as a decent frame / seat bag and bar roll set up I reckon.
You can carry a lot more volume and weight on a rack / pannier or trailer set up than you can in bags. 30Kg + is no problem in panniers (as long as it doesn't screw up bike handling which is largely dependent on the frame, my lightweight Soma double cross gets an alarming front wheel shimmy on descents due to frame flex if it's loaded any more than that). They are ideal for self sufficient extended tours / dirt road trips where you need to carry a lot of stuff and can't reliably re stock on a regular basis.

A minimalist bag set up is much better for riding anything remotely single track / techy but you are limited space and weight wise, Seat bags swing about if you overload them and heavy bar rolls mess up the steering. For weekenders and shorter trips up to a week or so or longer if you know you can reliably restock food and water and you have your s**t together I much prefer bags.

I still have a front & rear set of Tubus racks / Roller classics, but I don't get to go on 3 to 6 month tours these days, work and family etc, so I barely use them since getting the bags. If you are thinking along the the lines of traditional adventure touring then rack / pannier / trailer is a better option. Otherwise my preference is for bags, you don't have to buy the all at once, you can improvise with dry bags and a backpack or even a seatpost rack (just don't overload it) at the outset.


----------



## TheAxiom (Jan 15, 2015)

I think that the consideration of wearing a backpack is underappreciated in the discussion of bag set ups. I'm a heavy rider (260 lbs at my heaviest) and I need to shift weight off the rear of the bike to save the wheels. I'm now slowly setting up a hybrid system that will have a triangle bag carry my water and tools/spares, front roll bag for food and kitchen and two 'front' sized panniers on the rear. My lightweight backpacking bag held 44 litres and I need to replicate that space on the bike and the soft bag only setups can't do that with out some sort of backpack. 

This debate has taken on a religion/politics sort of vibe lately so hardliners reside everywhere. But I thing gathering all of your intended clothes and gear into one room, organizing it into stuff sacks and totaling the volume will quickly tell you what the minimal carrying capacity will be, BEFORE food and water. Figuring out the rations will be the deciding factor in which set up will be good for you.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

TheAxiom said:


> This debate has taken on a religion/politics sort of vibe lately so hardliners reside everywhere.


I've bikepacked with people that will not wear a backpack, who think backpacks are great and folks in the middle who don't mind a small pack. They all get it done.

You are right that laying out your gear will tell you how much storage you need. I can easily imagine somebody with a sleeping bag that is larger than my tent, pad and sleeping bag combined.

I have what I consider to be pretty compact/light gear and my buddy manages to do the same rides with so much less I feel like I must have gone to Walmart shopping for a week's worth of groceries.  I have other friends that look at my setup and are amazed by how light and compact it is.

There is no one right answer.


----------



## SimpleJon (Mar 28, 2011)

I don't see any religous political hardline vibe in this thread. I agree with Vik backpacks are personnal choice, i have a small 14L one I use all the time but Find bigger ones restrictive for other folks they are the preferred option, its finding what works for you. Each to their own - check out some of the wheelsize debates if you want real zealots


----------



## Mojave G (Jan 30, 2015)

I've been trying to choose between the rack/bags as well. Being in southern Nevada, water is scarce or non-existent will have to haul alot with me for extended days. Been looking at the bob trailer and maybe just a rear rack and a lot of bottle cages lol!  Can bags carry heavy stuff like water?


----------



## big_papa_nuts (Mar 29, 2010)

EugeneTheJeep said:


> I've been trying to choose between the rack/bags as well. Being in southern Nevada, water is scarce or non-existent will have to haul alot with me for extended days. Been looking at the bob trailer and maybe just a rear rack and a lot of bottle cages lol!  Can bags carry heavy stuff like water?


Frame bag is a perfect spot for a hydration bladder or dromadary bag. I would much rather have water weight as close to my COG as possible so frame bag and a big bottle on the bottom of the downtube would be the first places I'd put it.


----------



## SimpleJon (Mar 28, 2011)

I am lucky that where I do most of my trips the issue is too much water not too little, I carry 1.5L in my hydration pack and a 2L bladder in the frame bag. I carry a filter and steripen.
The most I have had to carry was on a 1 month trip in western australia last sept / oct where I had 2x2L bladders in the frame bag + 1L Nalgene bottle + 1.5L hydration pack. I had checked out water availability before hand and it was available every 30 miles or so at that time of year.

For my bag set up I could possibly get another 4or5L bladder in but anymore than that it would start to get tricky. I wouldn't want to be carting dense stuff like water in my seat bag or bar roll and my frame triangle isn't the biggest. I also don't like big loads on my back. So for me working on 5L a day min water consumption I would say 2 to 3 days would be the absolute maximum I would want to plan on carrying with my bag set up I could at least double that with racks and panniers. 

I am a bit of a minimalist weight weenie though when it comes to gear, my kit is all light weight and packs very small; my only real luxury is an 128Gb iphone and decent earbuds
I do carry an empty platypus 4L bladder with my kit as a just in case though


----------



## Giel (Jan 16, 2011)

Did a bit number crunching a while back when condsidering a switch to bikepack bags. Graph compares weight and volume of a few different bikepack and rack options. A lightweight rack&bag setup tends to be heavier for a given volume.

Bearable Lightness v2 by Michiel Kuit, on Flickr

I went with bikepack bags and small backpack in the end (the red dot-36), but then I mostly ride singletrack. If you're going to be riding mostly dirt roads with no or very little HAB, then racks&bags would be my choice.

Cheers, Giel


----------



## Aushiker (Sep 27, 2007)

Thanks Giel. That is informative. I am thinking for my needs (carrying water mainly) that a bikpacking setup with a rack on the rear to take small Ortliebs (front panniers) would work well.

Andrew


----------



## pierre meux (Dec 1, 2008)

FWIW, the best solution I've found for multi-day self-supported dirt tours in arid places with dry camps is a combination of a front rack and paniers, frame bag, and seat bag. This allows me to haul or more 12 liters of water on the bike, while keeping that and other weight low and stable. Light stuff rides higher. In my experience a front rack and pannier behaves far better than rear. Also, even full front and back rack/pannier systems, if well sorted and secure, can shred single track just fine. Check out Rogue Panda Designs' bickpacking pannier with compression straps, for example.


----------



## Tinman (Aug 18, 2013)

* It's really not a matter of either or, as recent threads tend to suggest. You can mix and match. Example : rear rack with frame pack, gas tank,sweet roll. Front rack with ......etc.

* Also, of late, there seems to be a tendancy to assume a rack Must use panniers. Typically in particular historically to early 90's, MTB'ers used dry bags strapped down to racks for Huge weight savings over panniers and big volume.

* I like a rear rack with a sheet of tin/aluminum down the center
Old Man Mountain Rear Pannier Racks Fit Most Any Bike
Eco Rack
In particular I like the planet bike because of the bent up lip for me to buckle my dry bag around, locked under by my saddle tool bag, after rolling it down which then just requires one strap.
The above combo, I then add a short extended mud flap (cut a SKS rear board and bolt). This combo holds Much more than any of the frame,back packing saddle bags available, as typically it is a 20 liter dry bag plus a under seat saddle tool bag. Must important to me is it keeps all the mud,wet and grime off my back. Also I appreciate having my tools separately in a under saddle/standard/saddle bag.

Yet, I like the gas tanks,feed sacks and all also.

About the only way your limited to one or the other is:
A full suspension bike
No braze on's

If not mix and match.......and try dry bags rather than panniers.....Except for grocery getting........even for that I prefer the saddle/pannier/commuter type to quickly though on just like on a horse, then hang back in the garage.

As a paddler,rower,fly fisherman,camper > Dry bags these days come in almost to many flavors. You don't want the flimsy,see throughs. The best I like are very pliable outer,fabric like yet tough. You either need to be in a store that has a pile of them to see,touch feel or phone a company like Jandd that carries a ton of them.

I love Revelate Designs stuff as well.........but you can still use a rack with...........or a back pack..........which of late back packs have received a bit more harshness then they deserve as well. If it's cool temps out, packed lite with some cloths and food........has a stirrup strap........these modern back packs like Osprey and others rock ! I just don't like then in the heat of summer or over loaded / and or stiff , hard goods them rather than cushy soft


----------



## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

TheAxiom said:


> ...I'm a heavy rider (260 lbs at my heaviest) and I need to shift weight off the rear of the bike to save the wheels.


This is a puzzling statement.

I agree with the sentiment of combining racks with soft bags, and ditching the mindset of racks/panniers versus bags.

Also, be creative. Find a space on your bike where you can put stuff and make a bag for it, or have someone make it. Employ off-shelf racks like the Free Parable Design stuff or anything cage, and modify them as needed. There's really nothing complicated about a weather-resistant pouch that holds gear and attaches to a bike.

Hamstrung by a certain rack braze on set up? Do your own rack thing with clamps, Thule rack or whatever.


----------



## TheAxiom (Jan 15, 2015)

It's not meant to be puzzling really; many things made commercially are not designed for use by heavy people. Before I built my own bike, I saw quite a few bikes online that mention recommended rider weights and even maximum weights. This is why the smarter people than me on this website recommended handbuilt wheels. 

On my last tour, I had all my gear loaded up in a Camelback backpack and on the rear Blackburn rack because it was all I had. I did ok all things considered but the rutted roads chewed up my rear rim and after truing it still has a wobble. 

Also, being heavy (for me, in the gut) puts more weight on taint and such, a heavy pack makes that worse. Now that I have lost weight, riding is more fun, but I still want to ditch the backpack and move heavy stuff like water and fuel to the middle of the bike. I also need to carry a piece of medical equipment these days so I have that to include in planning. My current plans are revolving around a Thule (freeload) rack, half frame pack and handlebar roll. 

My only $0.02 was that a lot of people in forums (not this thread per se but else where on MTBR) have seemed to dismiss panniers outright in favor of all soft luggage, and many riders, including some of the bigger folk here, may experience some reliability or comfort issues slugging a 20 or 30L backpack with an all soft luggage kit. I just thought it was worth thinking about.


----------



## Mojave G (Jan 30, 2015)

big_papa_nuts said:


> Frame bag is a perfect spot for a hydration bladder or dromadary bag. I would much rather have water weight as close to my COG as possible so frame bag and a big bottle on the bottom of the downtube would be the first places I'd put it.


Good idea, could put a couple extra camelbak bladders in a frame bag (my backpack is a camelbak, fits quite a bit of extra gear too).


----------



## Mojave G (Jan 30, 2015)

Tinman said:


> * It's really not a matter of either or, as recent threads tend to suggest. You can mix and match. Example : rear rack with frame pack, gas tank,sweet roll. Front rack with ......etc.
> 
> * Also, of late, there seems to be a tendancy to assume a rack Must use panniers. Typically in particular historically to early 90's, MTB'ers used dry bags strapped down to racks for Huge weight savings over panniers and big volume.
> 
> ...


You're right, I've wondered why most pics and setups I've seen since looking into bikepacking shows an either/or bags or racks and why can't I do both? I'm not going to do any crazy trails so I think a rear rack, frame bag with water bladders, sweet roll, maybe front rack for some light stuff, small camel backpack should do me to start out. Thx! :thumbsup:


----------



## Mojave G (Jan 30, 2015)

pierre meux said:


> Check out Rogue Panda Designs' bickpacking pannier with compression straps, for example.


Looks like good stuff thanks, and close to home here in NV.


----------



## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

EugeneTheJeep said:


> ...why can't I do both?












:thumbsup:


----------



## Mojave G (Jan 30, 2015)

Awesome! :rockon:


----------



## bmike (Nov 17, 2009)

Giel said:


> Did a bit number crunching a while back when condsidering a switch to bikepack bags. Graph compares weight and volume of a few different bikepack and rack options. A lightweight rack&bag setup tends to be heavier for a given volume.
> 
> Bearable Lightness v2 by Michiel Kuit, on Flickr
> 
> ...


thats a great graph, but i'm wondering what the bubble size indicates... is that volume divided by weight?


----------



## Tinman (Aug 18, 2013)

bmike said:


> thats a great graph, but i'm wondering what the bubble size indicates... is that volume divided by weight?


and the graph itself contradicts the last sentence - statement........._A lightweight rack&bag setup tends to be heavier for a given volume._.....but it's ......_pretty_ looking.................perhaps they do but.......thats not what the graph shows 

to answer your question it appears the balloon size is volume in liters but......that does not change what i noted above


----------



## SimpleJon (Mar 28, 2011)

The "post your bikepacking rig gear" thread is a real eclectic mix of bags, racks, baskets, panniers, dry bags, trailers, backpacks and general DIY jobs; it's one of my favourite threads on the whole site. There are pics of pretty much any set up imaginable (and some I would never have thought of on there)
It definitely shows that there is no one size fits all: terrain, bike set up, riding style, budget and personal preference - endless possibilities
Something wrong if you can't find some ideas on there


----------



## Tinman (Aug 18, 2013)

SimpleJon said:


> The "post your bikepacking rig gear" thread is a real eclectic mix of bags, racks, baskets, panniers, dry bags, trailers, backpacks and general DIY jobs; it's one of my favourite threads on the whole site. There are pics of pretty much any set up imaginable (and some I would never have thought of on there)
> It definitely shows that there is no one size fits all: terrain, bike set up, riding style, budget and personal preference - endless possibilities
> Something wrong if you can't find some ideas on there


Thanks refreshing !

I know I am going to order a couple Revelate Designs feed bags, for sure, with my rear rack love. They look awesome ! Must have category


----------



## TitanofChaos (Jun 13, 2011)

Giel said:


> A lightweight rack&bag setup tends to be heavier for a given volume.


I'll buy this, but I also find racks and panniers encourages over packing, since you have more space


----------



## Welnic (Feb 6, 2013)

bmike said:


> thats a great graph, but i'm wondering what the bubble size indicates... is that volume divided by weight?


The bubble size is Weight divided by Volume, or W/V factor. Take the light blue Rakemode1, 2100 gms divided by 70 liters = 30. Smaller numbers are better. So the one with the best ratio on there is the pinkish Bikepack mode that comes in at 20.


----------

