# Motobecane hal-e. Looks like a cool whip!



## Steve Adams (Sep 17, 2010)

Just eyeballing the Hal-e. Looks like a killer E bike!

thoughts? And none of the comments reagarding it's MB so it's crap. they are fine bikes.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Too many bad customer service reviews for Bikes Direct for me to risk almost $4K with them, especially on something like an eBike. 

I emailed them with a question about it, and lets just say the response was not impressive. They aren't engineers, they really aren't bike people either, they just spec bikes to Chinese manufacturers and they get what they are sent.


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

Well, I'll let you know soon. I have tracking numbers on two of them, arriving Monday.

As far a Motobecane goes, we have seven of them here, all great bikes. I was road and mtb racer and bike shop mechanic and have yet to see a bad bike from them. I broke a frame once and they sent a new one right out. I was waiting for them to come up with an eBike before we got them. Big investment, so I hope it goes well.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

newfydog said:


> Well, I'll let you know soon. I have tracking numbers on two of them, arriving Monday.
> 
> As far a Motobecane goes, we have seven of them here, all great bikes. I was road and mtb racer and bike shop mechanic and have yet to see a bad bike from them. I broke a frame once and they sent a new one right out. I was waiting for them to come up with an eBike before we got them. Big investment, so I hope it goes well.


Keep us in the loop. I'm especially interested in how it climbs.

I hope they have a US controller with a 20MPH top speed rather than the 25 KM/hr limit they are advertising.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I'm kind of contemplating getting an e-bike and this is one that interests me.

I didn't have a car back in the day and used my bike as my main form of transportation and exploration. A couple run ins with cars, and pressure from my folks to get a car and conform to the rest of society, and those days ended. I look back at the photos and thought things were better then...

Here's what it's like on one of my exploration trips to discover trails, heading towards the hills/mtns South of my house, with the aim to reach the top and the other side:









































































I generally ride in the other direction now, from doorstep to trailhead, since it has a much more bike friendly route. It results in a 40 mile round trip, which I find more than doable, but I definitely feel it on the way back, the way my core gets exhausted and can't hold up my upper body weight and my saddle starts to feel not so comfy. The trails are better groomed though:









Sad cause there's some noteworthy trails in all directions from me. I can ride Lake Elsinore area, Gwin's hometown, if I ride 15 miles West. I can ride Murrieta, where Gwin did his last promo video (desert part), going 15 miles South. I can ride Hemet (Simpson Park), if I ride 15 miles East. I typically just go 15 miles North and ride Riverside trails, at Sycamore Canyon. I'm familiar with the trail builders at Simpson and Murrieta, and I've done trail work days at Sycamore.

I kind of see particular emtb as a possible solution. There's some roads I can make work if I ride on the dirt to right, not worrying about the effect that rolling resistance has on my endurance, with motor assistance. It made me look up all the local laws and see that ebikes, even ones considered "low power ped-elecs" (under 300W) are considered to not be allowed on dirt trails unless permitted by local authorities. The laws in Cali only classify these class I for bike path use, but I know that they're okay at least for where I regularly ride now. I will definitely learn more now that I've at least cracked the door open to the idea.

That I typically join these guys for group rides on a regular basis. Think I'd keep a regular bike around until ebikes are more socially acceptable.









I think I've been steadily dropping miles... think I need something to change that.









Oh, found my old strava account in my other browser. Here's the more recent stuff, doing the same thing almost every week seems to be getting to me. That and I'm not much of a night rider.









Bike tax:









Too long, didn't read? Basically, I had a "game" where I'd look to the horizon and decide I want to go there. I didn't realize the value of the experience then, with it seemingly not paying off due to roads that weren't bike friendly and not knowing where the nice trails are, but I learned a lot about the surrounding area. I'd like to start again, doorstep to trail, making all the trails I know of, within 15+ miles, more accessible. Is an emtb like this one something that will help enable me? It's not going to replace a regular bike; it'll just be used to break down mental blocks. I'm most definitely a more casual rider now, no longer trying to test my skills trying to hang with experts in Enduro races.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I'd recommend a rigid fork, a set of road wheels and @ 35 - 45mm tires to turn that into a flat bar gravel bike, which is what I did with an old 26" tire hardtail. It's a great adventure bike for just that sort of riding.


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

honkinunit said:


> I hope they have a US controller with a 20MPH top speed rather than the 25 KM/hr limit they are advertising.


They sent an email saying the bikes which were supposed to ship mid-Oct would not ship until Nov1-8 due to a delay to change to the US 20mph controller. It shipped Nov1 and is due to arrive Nov 6.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

newfydog said:


> They sent an email saying the bikes which were supposed to ship mid-Oct would not ship until Nov1-8 due to a delay to change to the US 20mph controller. It shipped Nov1 and is due to arrive Nov 6.


A brutally honest review would be great after you have had a chance to try it out.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Well, I'm now in on this too. I put in my order. Interested in the ownership experience, so I will be focusing mostly on that, and not comparisons to regular bikes. Just going to treat it as a unique 2-wheeled tool, not a typical mtb, a toy made for fun, nor a motor vehicle. 

Time to clear out some space for it.

Will be doing a really detailed inspection on it to begin with. Mostly because I want to learn everything about ebikes. My growing curiosity was getting too big for me to keep it contained.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

This is my BD MB eAnyRoad bike I put together last year and now have a couple of thousand miles on it.









No complaints about the bike but I am able to do my own tech. For the type of terrain that is posted above I prefer more watts and a hub drive. BB drives don't feel right to me and mess with my preferred cadence for road type riding. I suppose they work better on an mtb type bike for trail work but that's not my jam.


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## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

Definitely awaiting a no nonsense review of this bike. Can’t find anything online yet.


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

Here's a decent review of the Shimano Steps system:
https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/shimano-steps-e8000-mountain-bike

I don't know much about e-bikes, just done some short demo rides. I have a fleet of bikes though, from road racing through fatbike, with various mt bikes, so I'll give you my best impressions of the new toy.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

One thing that's definitely a downside is needing to help those without strong upper bodies lift the bike over obstacles they cannot ride. 50 lbs is a surprisingly handful, when you gotta consider that you not only have to lift, but also move it a good lateral distance. I will test this, to see how conveniently the weight is balanced. While I don't plan on transporting an ebike by motor vehicle, I imagine it to be a back strainer to load it on a pickup or roof.

The 3 mph walk assist is an interesting feature. I know that some note how difficult it is to get restarted in the middle of a steep climb on certain ebikes. I wonder how natural it would be to fix being stalled out on a climb, underestimating things like your own fitness, gearing, amount of boost, traction and handling, and the technical difficulty of the climb (ex. bumps, curves, ruts). They typically state that there's hardly any boost at low cadence, compared to high cadence, and I'm a masher*. I like my singlespeed bikes.

I don't know much about ebikes either. It will be pretty much a fresh experiment, as much as it's a fresh experience. I just merely opened up, mainly since it seemed a way to get away from the expensive carbon weight weenie game and the luxury high end mtb game (I got spoiled). Get speed + durability, +more with ebike, but at what trade-offs? It's time to find out. I don't expect suspension to be refined anything like Yeti's, nor geo to be progressive like Whyte's. This is merely the only option that I could afford that appealed to me. The '18 Scott eGenius would be one I'd pick if I could afford it. I picked the 46cm (18.1") model, despite only being only 5'7", since I plan on riding it at a higher average speed than my current normal bikes (over 11 mph), and figure a longer wheelbase will aid in comfort on top of stability. I'm not expecting it to rocket up climbs at its speed cut-off (20mph), like the haters seem to think. It's only 250W, compared to my average 175W output and my 450+W bursts; if that's enough to turn a 10d upslope into almost flat ground, I'd be thrilled, but trying to keep things realistic.

I got a rack from cyclingdealusa that I plan on using to park/store it, so it's not hanging or leaning on something. It's one that mostly holds the tire, that you roll the wheel into, and adjust the upright down to touch the tire.

I do use GPS now, and Strava, as you know from my post above. I also know that Strava has an "ebike" activity type. Looks like it will have its own segments, so I will need to make new segments if I want to see performance over a particular section.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

It'll be interesting to see your analysis. Torque-sensor systems have a big advantage off road IMO since as long as there's pressure on the pedals, the motor keeps assisting. I've found in tight switchbacks, where I need to "wrestle" the bike around or similar difficult "feature", these bikes are much easier to ride than RPM-only assist.


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## Steve Adams (Sep 17, 2010)

Newfydog...your not in newfoundland are you?


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

I was in Newfoundland a month ago, but no, I currently live in Bend, Oregon. With a big slobbering dog.


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

They are here. Mine went together in snap. Battery charging, but I took it out a bit and WOW!

Great bike, good components and tires, everything in tune. 47.9 lbs with pedals, feels lighter.

Assist is amazingly smooth, quiet and powerful. Agree the eco to trail step is small, while boost shoots the bike with a big kick. The eco is substantial power however, so the range will be good.

Got to put Mrs. Newfy's bike together and head out for a real ride.


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## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

What size bike did you weigh out at 47.9lbs?


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

newfydog said:


> They are here. Mine went together in snap. Battery charging, but I took it out a bit and WOW!
> 
> Great bike, good components and tires, everything in tune. 47.9 lbs with pedals, feels lighter.
> 
> ...


Just curious, did you verify that the power doesn't cut out at 25km/hr?


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

Ok, I had a busy day, put two bikes together, supervised re-doing the pavers in the drive, bought a car, paddled up to see if the snow and cold brought out the spawning whitefish, and still got in a very few minutes of riding.

The 47.9 lb bike was the 46 cm. Actually I weighed it twice, 47.5 and 48.3. SPD pedals, WTB tru-v saddle.

I went up a steep switchback climb which is a 50-50 deal for me on a regular bike and blasted up it so easily I had to cut the power back. It is interesting how the assist is very well tied to your input torque. If you get out of the saddle and hammer even in the lowest setting the power ramps up to match. It is so quiet and well integrated to your pedalling that it really is like actually being in animal form rather than riding a motorized bike.

I was impressed with the tune---I only re-aligned the rear brake (both bikes). Even the tire pressure was spot on!. 

I also managed to flip up a log and bend the **** out of the rear derailleur. It still shifted pretty well, and I was able to get it bent back by taking it apart and putting the cage plates in a vice. Hanger undamaged. Arrggh!

The integrated cyclometer and power indicator works nicely, and yes, the power cuts of at 20 mph (32kph). The box had been opened and the cyclometer reads in MPH. I wonder if they didn't open them up and re-program them all here.

I really like the 2.8" tires. Wheels are true. The only disappointment I can come up with is the seatpost is not a nice Ritchey like many of my Motos, it is a generic thing, and I had to saw it down to get a reasonable range in the 38 cm bike.

I'm tied up tomorrow, but will get in a good ride Wednesday. 'Til then, I will once again say, WOW, this thing looks great.


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## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

What’s the battery weigh? Is it easy to remove the battery and can it be charged off the bike? Thanks!


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

The battery weighs 5.7 lbs. It comes off with click, and locks to the bike with a key. The charging port is on the battery, so it doesn't matter if it is on or off the bike. 

I have not found a source in the USA for a second one yet, though some European sites have it for 700 Euros. ($812). It appears to be compatible with the E6000 battery which is 418 watt hrs (vs 504w/hrs for the 8000 series) and $400 from Amazon.

Got in a great ride on it today, write-up to come....


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

First real ride:
Rider--- former racer in late Pleistocene Epoch, won lots of road and mt races in the sport or Cat III, dabbled with the big boys a bit in Cat i-II, Pro Expert and got my ass kicked. Now ancient, 63 year old, 187 lb. slob, but still ride a few days a week and do a long off road trip in Europe or the mountains every year.

Conditions—32 degrees, mix of paved roads, crunchy snow, packed snow, gravel roads and muddy or sandy single track.

Numbers--- 33miles, 2hr 21 min, , 1749 ft of climbing, 14.0 mph average , max 33.4 mph. Rode pretty moderately, would have been happy with 10mph on a regular bike.

I headed out, five bars of power, Eco (lowest) setting seemed to give plenty of assist, so I used that 95% of the time. Indicated a range of 42 miles. I did a few roads of untracked crunchy snow, and definitely got up some hills I wouldn’t have cleaned without the assist. 

It seemed that on any flattish smooth section it went right up to 19.9 mph and cut back, but it stayed right at the 20 mph limit very smoothly, not much on/off. I am so glad we got the American 20 mph governor, the Euro one would have been obnoxious. On the steady gravel sections the same effort seemed to produce about 12 mph in “ off” position, 15-17 mph on “Eco” and 17-18 on "Trail". Trail was noticeably stronger climbing, but didn’t see much difference on flats. Boost knocks you out your shoes.

I did a bit of a motocross trail, which was a gas with all that power. Eco was fine, in “Trail” I spun the rear tire a bit. The bike handled great on the technical corners, but I got some air on some jumps, and could really feel the weight when airborne. Nice soft landing though.

The battery dropped to four bars after 9 miles, three bars after 19, two bars after 27 miles. I then hit a paved road and cranked it to “Trail”, then hit a long obnoxious climb and figured I’d roar up it in “Boost”. I screamed up the hill alright, but it killed my poor battery---dropped to one bar by 29 miles! It said remaining range of 4 miles, but it got me home just fine, and still said 4 miles left when I got there. I think without the long uphill sprint the 40 mile range would be reasonable. I’ve heard they give a bit less range in the cold.

Anyway, it was a great ride, it definitely keeps you cranking, levels out the long false flats, and gives you some punch on technical stuff. Handles better than a 48lb bike with gear. Fun stuff, very natural, remarkably quiet. I may never rider my other bikes again (just kidding).


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Read your post start to finish, then re-read the summary up top to see how it fit the context. Pretty telling. Would you not normally ride in such conditions and over such distance & elevation?

Makes me question if the last line isn't half true. I'm guessing that you probably considered it emotionally, but not logically. Since you stated it that way, it's going to take a lot of convincing to contradict later. Keeping them around for any specific reason, besides backup? I'm keeping 2, since I have doubts the ebike does it all better. Has to be a catch...

The subject that most interested me is where eco and trail mode fits. 14 mph average vs 10 mph satisfying you, for the effort put in, using mostly eco to get range (33 miles and 1700' climbing)... was kind of hoping that it would be possible to pace with riders on normal bikes without it either being too difficult or not difficult enough to maintain pace.

I could use more range, 50 miles pref. Wonder if a 2170 based batt pack in the future can slot in or if I can program the eco and trail modes to have lighter assist. I was thinking about using excess assist to carry more stuff in my pack, until I became confident in the ebike's reliability.

Not much was said about boost, so gonna have to test that myself. I have 1 climb in mind, that I have never made it up, and 1 other difficult one that I used to clear, when I was fitter. I expect boost mode might be too much assist for these climbs and is more of a motorhead's mode. Will certainly test the bike's geo, on top of the smoothness of the torque and power output; the longer CS will only help so much to keep the front wheel down.


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

I ride crap like that all the time, but without my new toy, I would have gone fishing yesterday. That bike is really fun.

I'm far from clear on what the range will be in the end. I rode a fair amount of snow, which can be slow going. Those big, deep knobbed tires are great in snow, but are slow overkill for many conditions. 

We have ridden the whole Great Divide MTB Route, and were wondering if the ebikes would let us do it without camping, motel to motel. It is an easy rolling route, and 50 mile+ range, especially for my wife, is not hard to picture. One extra battery between the two of us might about do it. 

The system is torque based, so the harder you go, the more assist it applies. If you are riding with someone who is on a regular bike, you might not have to work too hard to keep up, and might get a big range.

Boost sure nuked the battery! I find it hard to control on technical climbs. I probably need to learn to pedal easy and not attack the climb if I use that setting. I'd say it is best for short, steep pitches with good traction. 

As far as replacing conventional bikes, I have hundreds of miles of good single track outside my door, where the ebike is not legal. I intend to keep riding those, on a legal bike.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

ND, really informative. Many of the trails frequented om my e have steeper ascents, plus I'm less fit than you, so difficult to correlate. V, I think you'll enjoy the extra arrow in your quiver, but doubt you'll lose your taste for non-e.


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

Still very little discussion about this bike to be found. I hope people are as pleased as we are.

It passed the most discerning test today, Mrs. Newfy. The sun sort of came out and we rode 15 miles of snow, mud and slush. We covered the bikes in mud, everything worked fine, no shorts. My bike went from five bars to four at 9 miles, hers at 10.5, which is pretty good because we were on some pretty tough and slow-going trails. I turned my power off, and had to really bust ass to keep up with her running eco.

She made a good observation---the bike encourages a good spinning cadence, and is easy on the knees. On a regular bike you tend to spin better on the flats and get a bit more of a stomp going uphill, but the motor really smooths out the dead spot over the top.

She also compared it to the excitement of getting on her first mt. bike in 1986.

We both agreed those tires are great in the snow, and the power a huge help cleaning the deep and tough spots.


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

Another good ride, 35 miles, 2366 ft of climbing, very little pavement. my wife getting better than 11 miles per bar, me 9 miles. We finished with 2 bars out of five, mine went down to two after 28 miles, hers at 33. I ran the eco setting most of the day, she used some of "trail" on some long disheartening climbs toward the end.

The thing that amazed me was that we did a really hard, long climb in crusted unbroken snow. I tried it with no power and was above my aerobic threshold. In the lowest setting (eco) it went great- actually fun. We followed that up with a rocky descent with lots of riding the brakes. The range of that bike is pretty good, because those were not easy miles.

We met some cyclists turning back at the snow. They were pretty jazzed to see a couple in their 60's pushing on. No negativity towards the motors at all.

We are getting the bike dialed in, I put on a longer stem, and softened my wife's suspension pressures. They cruised the rocky stuff and on a few jumps the landing was a nice soft whump

I'd say Bikes Direct hit it out of the park with these bikes. I'm on google earth every night planning new rides for them.

Edit: In a side note, my wife tried to ride through a short puddle. It turned out to be a pit. mid-axle deep. In an impressive move, she somehow balanced and unclipped, and bailed onto a log without going for a swim. It submerged the entire motor, which showed no ill effects.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I'm going to learn from the light DIY guys on how to test batteries, current, and what not. Depending on what kind of cells they used, I wonder how trustworthy the battery indicator bars are. I think it's a mere voltage reading, hence why it reads suddenly lower when using Turbo.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Nice write up, and congrats on your new toy. It is such a mind-blowing experience once you ride a well built Emtb, out for a real trail ride.

The battery range that you are getting are awesome. My bike comes with a 400watt battery and I’d be lucky to get 24-28 miles on it, when I take it out on the trails with plenty of steep climbs. 

Turbo mode (aka Boost, High, etc...) Will definitely deplete lots of juice. Thats why I rarely use that setting. Eco is my preferred setting for techy climbs and trail for flowy/steep/smooth roller coaster like trails.

Welcome to the Emtb club! Glad to have you with us.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

V, I think the lights may be fairly accurate. My friend on a 2016 Felt hardtail with Bosch system used about 60% of his battery ascending the Harding Truck Trail and it seemed like the lights went out every three miles which is reasonable since, AFAICT, the ascent doesn't vary much along the entire nine or so miles. Can't wait to hear your evaluation since the BD is the value-leader now IMO.


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## Steve Adams (Sep 17, 2010)

newfydog said:


> I was in Newfoundland a month ago, but no, I currently live in Bend, Oregon. With a big slobbering dog.


Awesome. Next time your here...look me up!!!! Yeah...big a slobering pretty well NAILS the big newfies!


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

One more test---road tires.

I put on some 1.9 Panracer Gravel Kings at 50 psi and did a mixed road/gravel ride. The smaller tire caused it to kick off at an actual speed of 18.5 mph, but that's fine, it really leveled the hills and headwinds and let me spin a nice high RPM all ride. Seemed like I was getting about 13 miles a bar, or about a 60 mile range.

The bike had 1.6 lbs of 27.5 x 3.0" tubes in there. I was able to convert the Maxxis 2.8 tires to tubeless in a flash. The tubeless compatible stuff has come a long way.


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

Well, happy New Year. While the rest of the country is freezing, we have less snow now than November, and have 800 miles on the bikes.

We like them so much bought a second set to take to Europe. We keep a pair of 20 year old 26" titanium mtbs in France, and they just got upgraded.


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## levity (Oct 31, 2011)

Must have given rep to newfydog before because I got this msg:
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to newfydog again."

In any case, good info N-dog! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Keep it coming.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

800 miles is very respectable. At that rate, you're on your way to hitting 5000 miles in a year.

I got mine going late Nov and have over 400 miles on my odometer. I'm recovering from a hand injury though, so I don't have many trail miles. I can pedal, but I struggle to do anything technical since I can't grip on one side of the bar. I'm primarily riding at night, so troubleshooting noise is taking time. I like a silent bike, and this one's been giving me some metallic rattles, metallic rubbing/grinding sounds, and clacking that I'm not familiar with. Been checking chainring bolts, pedals, crank arms, and what not, and they're not present during the 20-30 minutes of daylight when I test ride my tweaks.

Been discovering other things, like how wildly different the readings are between my two shock pumps. My RockShox pump reads ~15psi less than my Topeak. 15 is huge when it comes to fork pressure, not to mention that it matters when I check my air, when it's warmed up to 65F and when it's down to 40F outside at night. Despite that, I don't have any complaints with the suspension, since I don't go by sag (I go by bracketing). I've ridden the single largest feature in my area, which more than guarantees susp bottom out, but I actually got my injury riding it down the most technical trail in the area, at night. The unwieldy weight overshadows any other issue the bike might have, followed by the performance of the tires. Been liking the feel of 10-14psi front and 14-18 psi in the back, able to rim strike the rear just rolling onto a curb. The feeling of squirm with 2.8 Rekons on i29s, when compared to 2.3s on 21mm rims, is strong, but have only burped at high speed, such as crossing a 4-5" wide and considerably deep rain rut at a diagonal going 20mph.

So far I've put a bit of mastic tape on the top of the chainstay, put a neoprene shock boot on the shock, and put a protective sticker on the back of the seat tube, to lessen the noise in the back. I have a suspicion that the rear tire was throwing sand all over, including the motor case, as it was intermittent. I tested it out by bouncing the bike after it was sounding crunchy under torque, and it seemed to address the issue, but still haven't concluded that was it. Keeping the chain lubed and clean and still monitoring.

That all said, there's not much that would prevent me from not recommending the bike. It's a good deal if you're ebike curious. It's not a replacement for a normal mtb. It's just there to back you up when you want to raise your minimum power output or minimum speed. The weight is a huge trade-off. Going back to my normal bike, it felt like a relief to be on a lightweight bike that I could actually toss around. I'd just go all in and equip the ebike with heavy reliable parts, thinking Cush Core for the rear and Minions.

Setting it up was only a few steps different from a normal bike. Slide on the battery, clamp on the handlebar controller unit, plug in the 2 wires, 1 from the left "shift" unit in the leftmost port on the controller, and 1 from the battery mount in the remaining port. The charger has a long cord, I think 5-6', and just plugs right into the side of the battery, and auto shuts off when done. I just want to note that you likely want to check the rear axle before you align the rear brake caliper, as I don't know if there's a way to clock it and its tightness will affect rotor clearance. I set mine up so the axle is pointed down and forwards, just under the chainstay pivot. Also, the dropouts are annoyingly inboard, to the point that you can't turn the axle with the lever full open without it hitting the seatstay tubing, once it's threaded in at least halfway.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Is your bike the usual 50-55 pounds, and have you examined range yet?


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

fos'l said:


> Is your bike the usual 50-55 pounds, and have you examined range yet?


Umm... that is all in the thread. Should I type it all again for you so you don't actually have to scroll?


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

Our miles are all trails and double track, mud, sand, snow. We've beat the crap out of them and everything is working fine. Love the 2.8 tires. We did a climb with 1200' rise and lots of soft sand chewed up by cows, the sort of thing that would just suck without the motor and big tires and it was not too bad, over with soon, and great views at the top. It is sort of like having a fast forward button to zip through the parts of the ride you don't like.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I finished a 45 mile ride yesterday with 2 bars left, with 10-11 miles of dirt. I hit a few stores on the way back and was carrying a heavier load, so I used Boost towards the end, since I was feeling the additional pressure on my seat. I was riding in casual clothes, jeans with regular underwear and a polo shirt with a long sleeve layer underneath. I use the power very economically. I'm not trying to max out the speed at 18.5 mph or whatever the motor cuts out at, since the varying level of assist can get old quick, with the spurts and sudden cut-off.

I can do this kind of stuff regularly, thanks to the ebike. I can do recovery on the bike, spinning easy and let the motor give me power. Don't feel like I need to do anything special post ride, for refueling my body.

Using it mostly for practical reasons, and not for enhancing my fun. I did go on joyrides, and acknowledge that it doubles my speed on long climbs, but that eats up the battery in a hurry, so I can't do that AND use assist to get to the trailhead without risking cutting my dirt time short. No one gives me a hard time about it. Mostly curious folk asking about the ebike experience. I tell them that it doesn't go faster, since it has the same 32x11 max gear (maybe 34t front?), and I tell 'em that I average 12mph up some of the fireroad climbs, relating it to riding it as if it were flat. Some are really curious about the trail-worthiness, which I couldn't answer, since it's my first time on 27.5+. Definitely am not close to setting technical PRs. One guy on a Nomad was asking about the brand and was relating it to KHS frames. I got curious and I see that the pierced seat-tube piece is very crafted very similarly to Astro Engineering's bikes, but their 4-bar has a short lower link rather than the Horst/FSR long lower arm, and I can't remember if this frame was made in China or Taiwan (Astro is Taiwanese).


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

newfydog said:


> Umm... that is all in the thread. Should I type it all again for you so you don't actually have to scroll?


If you posted it in your drivel (got bored in the first sentence and stopped reading), I wasn't interested. Notice I didn't ask you?


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Mine's a hair under 48 lbs for a size 46cm setup tubeless. Not the lightest config, as I've added pedals with 20mm extenders (about to swap to heavier grippier Sunline V1s), a KS Lev 125mm dropper post, SMP saddle, and I don't take off the Magicshine head & tail lights. It's in geeked out commuter mode, with reflectors still attached; I went all out with the lame theme, bell included.









I lost my camera somewhere, and I see that my GoPro's unreliable for taking stills with indoor lighting. I didn't expect it to be worse than my cellphone. Don't even bother trying to read the scale, trust me. ;D

I'll add that one reason why I reluctantly use Boost, is because I learned that draining the battery pack with high current pull reduces its life. I also learned that charging it to max also can effectively halve the battery pack's life, so don't try to reset the charger to top-off the battery. By life, I mean the rate at which the pack loses its max capacity. These are things I learned up from the DIYers in the flashlight forums. They're over there talking about pulling newer form factor 20700/21700 battery cells from cordless power tool battery packs (they priced them to be like $6-8 per cell from DeWalt packs). While it all sounds good to me, I'm going to conveniently pretend I didn't hear about any of it, and just enjoy what I have. I've learned that my curiosity is quite endless when it comes to potentially useful knowledge.


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

fos'l said:


> If you posted it in your drivel (got bored in the first sentence and stopped reading), I wasn't interested. Notice I didn't ask you?


quod erat demonstrandum


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

V, thanks for the information on weight and range. Charging to 80 or 90 % of max (4.2V per cell for many Li chemistries) is how Tesla is able to provide an eight year warranty on their batteries. Some individuals on Endless Sphere use units that allow one to charge to whatever level you desire. It's reported that charging to 90% doubles the effective life of the batteries and 80% quadruples it. Other people, like me, don't care too much because in three or four years batteries will have progressed to the point where they'll want a new one.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

newfydog said:


> quod erat demonstrandum


I asked two simple questions, and didn't address you. I know that Varaxis analyzes things carefully, so asked him. If you don't like it, pack sand. Maybe in your demented world you can take a shot at someone with impunity, but don't try me again.


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

fos'l said:


> I asked two simple questions, and didn't address you. I know that Varaxis analyzes things carefully, so asked him. If you don't like it, pack sand. Maybe in your demented world you can take a shot at someone with impunity, but don't try me again.


Actually tough guy mr. moderator, you didn't address anyone, just asked for stuff already in the thread. I wouldn't take that shot at someone other than you, who ought to actually read a thread. If you find my posts are too snarky for your high standards, do your job as a moderator and delete them. I know that would be require some work though....


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

*Diamondback Ranger---same front frame*















The comparable Diamondback runs about $4800


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

> mod·er·a·tor
> ˈmädəˌrādər/
> noun
> 1.
> ...


fos'l I think you might be confusing the word "arbitrator" with "agitator".


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

As far as value in performance-level (SLX/GX or higher) production-quality complete ebikes go, the Commencal Meta Power is the closest competition that I've seen to the Motobecane.

If anyone else is ebike curious, here's some tidbits that can allow you to skip the manual:








- This tool is to help insert and remove the "e-tube" wiring plugs.








- These Di2 cable clips snap onto cable housing to allow the electrical e-tube wiring to piggyback off of it, to tame the "rat's nest". I used tape anyways, since I wanted to permanently route my lighthead.








There's a set of keys for the battery, that allows it to be unlatched and slid off the bike. They were branded ABUS Amparo in my case.








Turn on the system by pressing a small button on the battery pack. Do not have any pressure on the pedals as it's powering up, else you'll get an error (torque sensor). It takes ~5 seconds to get ready. Turning off the system is done by pressing the same button on the battery pack. No need to hold down the button or cycle through anything, nor any need to switch to any specific assist mode.








The charger doesn't fit very tightly/securely into the battery. I think it's intended, for safety purposes (e.g. tripping hazard). Make sure you seat it well, and see lights on the charger and pack light up. Good design detail to make it have a 90d angled head. There's some sort of block that is included with the battery and charger, which will go unused. It's an adapter to charge a lower spec level battery pack.

You might need to turn off and turn on the pack when accessing the system through the e-tube app (available on Android), in order to connect through bluetooth. It can take 10-15 minutes to update firmware. The software allows you to customize assist levels in each setting.

I have Trail set to medium, and am happy with it there. With Trail set to low, it barely feels any different than Eco. I have Boost set to Low, since I haven't yet gotten used to how it accelerates for half a second after I stop pedaling.

How I perceive the assist levels:
- I find Boost to only be useful for non-technical sections. Basically used to skip the "grind" when riding solo.
- Trail is my go-to mode for trails when riding solo for enjoyment, since it varies assist level in such a way that it feels natural. 
- Eco seems to only add 1.5 mph or so to my speed a flat rate boost. I use Eco for pavement or whenever I'm riding trails with no assist, and want a boost to crank up a short technical feature, such as if riding with a group and am following at their pace, and just need extra to avoid stalling out this 50 lb beast up a short steep or a rock roller. I figure it's a nicer alternative to shifting down under power.

I plan on contacting Shimano North America when they're open, regarding firmware that sets wheel circumference, as it's reading about ~4% higher than GPS (and radar powered speed limit signs). Tried to call now, but I get a message saying their business house are 7-5 PST. They didn't state which days; are they closed on Sat? The 4% difference makes the power cut off early, such as getting 10% assist at 18.5 mph.

Oh, and STEPS seemingly refers to the various steps in power assist. It's not just three levels, 10% 25% 100%--there's multiple steps between 10 and 100%, which is a big deal when it comes to smooth intelligently adaptive power assist in Trail mode. Before it cuts off power completely, due to hitting the max speed cap, it will gradually drop in power assist levels. It's not very hard to hit the speed cap. I expect that most can reach 20mph by just standing up and giving a handful of complete pedal revolutions in 32x15 (3rd highest gear in the back) on flat pavement. Maintaining that is another story, especially for mtb tires, lack of aerodynamics, and other inefficiencies such as microdrive gearing.

Hopefully this info helps get others started, should they choose to check out e-bikes. I find hitting up stores on a frequent basis to buy food, and taking advantage of "door buster" deals, is a nice change from doing it all in 1 trip. Gives me an excuse to ride and be seen as a regular patron. Makes me see the city differently, seeing how all the city zoning with parking out front disconnects drivers (thru-traffic) from small businesses, while I'm more free to get a better look as I'm passing by.

This following link is a good collection of technical info on how the Shimano STEPS e8000 system stands out from the rest of the e-bike market: https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/11/06/hands-shimano-steps-e8000-e-mtb-components-make-way-u-s/


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## jpcoll01 (Nov 8, 2007)

I’m unclear with the 650b spacing can I use a set of 29er (700c) wheels with cross tires and have significant clearance?


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

That's a significantly smaller sized wheel-tire setup, both in diameter and width, so you gain clearance compared to stock. You can afford to run the wheels with potato chip-like wobbles in it. Just make sure you consider adapters for your hubs, if they aren't already set up for 148x12 rear and 110x15 front (Boost spacing). Search for more information on adapters or to find dimension comparisons on different wheel-tire setups.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Some photos of how the bike arrives:


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> fos'l I think you might be confusing the word "arbitrator" with "agitator".


Maybe so, but I've never been a punching bag and don't see any reason to start now; if you don't like it, tough.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

fos'l said:


> Maybe so, but I've never been a punching bag and don't see any reason to start now; if you don't like it, tough.


Maybe not a punching bag but you've got the overreacting thing down pat.


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## newfydog (May 8, 2009)

Varaxis said:


> You might need to turn off and turn on the pack when accessing the system through the e-tube app (available on Android), in order to connect through bluetooth. It can take 10-15 minutes to update firmware. The software allows you to customize assist levels in each setting.
> 
> I have Trail set to medium, and am happy with it there. With Trail set to low, it barely feels any different than Eco. I have Boost set to Low, since I haven't yet gotten used to how it accelerates for half a second after I stop pedaling.
> ]


Is that a custom setting? I have not messed with the e-tube connection yet, but I totally agree that in the factory setting the trail is too low and boost too high. The "Explorer" version looks better









On another note, my wife's second bike arrived, so I took the extra "can of popeye's spinach" and did an entire ride in boost. Sort of like a motorbike, and the battery lasted 19 miles (mixed, with lot of slow mud). I read the power drops off towards the end, but didn't notice it----it just stopped and would not come back on.

Let us know if Shimano helps with the wheel calibration. I suspect they set it so that you can't exceed 20 mph with the biggest tire you can cram in there, and won't allow it to be changed.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Maybe not a punching bag but you've got the overreacting thing down pat.


Thanks for your advice; don't deflect this thread again or your comments will be expunged. If you look at my original post, I asked an individual, who I respect highly, two reasonable questions which seemed - to me - to be of interest or I would have requested the information privately, then was set upon by another individual who, like you, had no business responding. Both of you have been warned NOW not to do it again.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Newfy, yes, I use the custom setting option to get a feel of each. I don't miss higher boost at all. I've also had some odd readings on the battery life while using boost. It could go from 2 bars in eco, and if I switch to boost, it can just go immediately to off. I really do believe it's just a simple voltage reading, with software that makes it seem less erratic (appearing to "recharge" or "drop" suddenly if current draw changes).








- battery profile showing how voltage can steeply drop-off suddenly on Panasonic cells. Not sure what's in Shimano's pack, but it could be similar. 
- The current draw could be related: red is boost, green is trail, and eco is blue.
- 4 out of 5 bars could be 3.55V, 3 bars 3.3V, 2 bars 3.05, 1 2.8, 0 bars 2.6V. 1 bar might seem like it lasts a while since it auto-switches to "Eco" (could have a lower draw than Eco) and gets over 100 mAh "extra" capacity vs Boost.

Not sure what Shimano considers fully drained for an ebike, but 2.5V is very low for a lithium cell. You don't want to be draining the battery that low, else it gets stressed and doesn't retain its full capacity well. I really hope Shimano played it safe. I'd turn off the system at that point, to prevent the sensors, display, and lights from draining power further. I'll be satisfied with no less than 1000 cycles with good battery range, since my ride distances seems to be close to the limit of the battery.

Regarding changing wheel circumference through the firmware, Shimano NA says that they require a dealer to change it. They require a Shimano diagnostic laptop, which they say isn't too uncommon as it's for Di2, and they're required to call Shimano to push through an update for the bike.

I asked them about crank options, as I'm interested in lengths shorter than 165mm. I asked if I could take e8000 crank arms and re-tap holes into them, but the guy said something about it having a different spider. I was confused by this, so after the call I re-checked the e8000 model online and see that it's just a pair of Hollowtech II arms. Will have to re-verify.

On initial inspection, I can't find any compatibility difference between the 8000 solid and the 8050 hollow arms on ours. If only there were a 180mm solid model, then I could've tried shortening to 155-160, but 155 will be barely doable with 175 if everything looks good. I see Miranda offers a Delta S in 170 for 45 Euros. The shortest stock model isn't available in stores yet, the 165mm 8050.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

newfydog said:


> View attachment 1176520
> View attachment 1176521
> 
> 
> The comparable Diamondback runs about $4800


I'd go with the Commencal Meta Power for $4500 over the Diamondback, for certain.


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## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

Sorry i don't have an answer for you, but agree it would be nice to run 29x2.3 tires on this bike


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I just got back from an accidental epic. I went out in casual clothes: jeans, t-shirt, long underwear, socks, and sneakers plus helmet (no chamois). I did over 65mi and 4000ft of ascent. I was planning on just cruising with minimal assist, since I had did some significant miles in the past couple days and I have another 45+ mi ride tomorrow scheduled...

Uh, if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. I'll be cleaning up and getting a quick bite, and uploading stuff.

























Could accidental epics possibly be a "thing" for ebikers? I ended up testing the battery's range in eco mode (it lasted 54 mi, with 4k' ascent).


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## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

Varaxis said:


> I just got back from an accidental epic. I went out in casual clothes: jeans, t-shirt, long underwear, socks, and sneakers plus helmet (no chamois). I did over 65mi and 4000ft of ascent. I was planning on just cruising with minimal assist, since I had did some significant miles in the past couple days and I have another 45+ mi ride tomorrow scheduled...
> 
> Uh, if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. I'll be cleaning up and getting a quick bite, and uploading stuff.
> 
> ...


That seems like excellent range given the amount of ascent. It would be helpful to know about how much you weight, to get a sense of battery range per pound of rider.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I'm 135-142 lbs. Fairly fit, but was relying on assist quite a bit considering my average HR. My legs/knees still in decent shape after the ride; I can still hop up stairs 2 at a time. No excuse not to do the 45 mi ride considering I have assist to help. Ah, ebikes...


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Varaxis said:


> I just got back from an accidental epic. I went out in casual clothes: jeans, t-shirt, long underwear, socks, and sneakers plus helmet (no chamois). I did over 65mi and 4000ft of ascent. I was planning on just cruising with minimal assist, since I had did some significant miles in the past couple days and I have another 45+ mi ride tomorrow scheduled...
> 
> Uh, if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. I'll be cleaning up and getting a quick bite, and uploading stuff.
> 
> ...


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Varaxis said:


> I have another 45+ mi ride tomorrow scheduled...


You can meet me at Central and push me up the hill. I'll be taking the train.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It'd be interesting to see data on how grade affects power consumption, even in the same levels of assist. Presumably, with torque sensing, your system would be adding more power on a steeper grade than it would on a lower, since you as a rider would be forced to work harder, which could account how a longer ride (65 miles with 4k climbing) could be possible on the same bike where 18 miles and 3k could kill it. I realize that these were rides on different bikes, I'm just musing aloud about the hypotheticals. The overall work (how many Joules) required could be the same for 2 completely different rides, but the ratio of how much is motor vs human imput would be different, leading to vastly different ranges using the same settings on the same ebike.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I will say that the bike can't descend chunk at well as my other bikes. It honestly descends comparably to my short travel HT (that ROS9 with the blue Revelation in pic below). Its relatively low front end stiffness is a big part of the reasoning. The plus tires are another factor. Anything bigger than 6" tall doesn't look "plowable", while a Ripley with 36 set to 130mm and DHR2 front just ignores stuff like a curb.

I want to try Cush Core rear and swapping the front for a 36 130mm and 29er with Minion. Still have to do something about pedal strike; the wide stance of my pedals is also an issue. Going to try a boost adapter with the Pike and 29er afterwards, to see if that lifts the front some more and if the stiffness of the Pike is good enough. Ditching the volcano-style headset dust cap and slamming my stem would reduce steerer flex too.

I should cut that dork disc off. It creates drag rubbing on the RD when I'm in the granny gear. Honestly never used granny until I tried climbing this mtn without much assist. I'm liking the saddle and credit it for making it so comfortable without a chamois (SMP TRK). I've tried the same on a Spec Phenom (super firm, but disappears after 25 mins), and a Charge/Fabric Scoop (cushier, but doesn't work too well if you are wearing a loaded pack as the cushiness fades after 25 mins). Speaking of packs, I didn't wear any for this epic. Was just a hail mary attempt, as I had nothing but my keys and cell phone.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Strava says the ride was 2425 kJ. 

A couple of comparable rides I found that rode a similar route up the mountain which linked up with the other trail system:
- 2210 kJ on a F Si 38.8mi 4813ft, getting KOMs as a warm-up before linking up to do a casual group ride (with me part of that casual group )
- 3499 kJ on a E29 65.4mi 6385ft, with a considerable amount of road riding back to the guy's house

My typical 40+ mi 3.5h Thursday ride is 1700 kJ. Usually 2 bars left at the end of that ride, but when I'm with the group I typically don't use assist on the pedally flats and non-steep climbs, only the descents, short and steep technical climbs, and slow technical rock crawling sections. I'm also more liberal with Trail mode (set to med), even using it on the road, since I got battery power to burn.

Not sure if Strava typically displays energy output, but I use a Chrome extension called Stravistix.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Varaxis said:


> a E29 65.4mi 6385ft, with a considerable amount of road riding back to the guy's house


What kind of moron would do that?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Varaxis said:


> Strava says the ride was 2425 kJ.
> 
> A couple of comparable rides I found that rode a similar route up the mountain which linked up with the other trail system:
> - 2210 kJ on a F Si 38.8mi 4813ft, getting KOMs as a warm-up before linking up to do a casual group ride (with me part of that casual group )
> ...


Strava just estimates and is notoriously innaccurate, plus it doesn't know the difference between you and the motor, so I wouldn't put a lot of stock in what it says. Fun to play with I suppose.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

GPS and power meters are notoriously inaccurate too (power meters in question). They have consistency though, telling you enough to reveal your own patterns based on comparing new results to your prior results.

Same concept on consistency applies here. The tool has precision through consistency. Precision and accuracy are different. You can use a single inaccurate shock pump to service all the suspension components you have and get expected results. Switch to another super accurate digital pump, and all of the sudden your XXX psi doesn't get what you expected. You simply just have to keep in mind that precision needs to recalibrated, in order gain accuracy, if you are going to use different measurement tools.

Basically, it's still a good comparison, since it's the same measurement tool. Not implying that it has medical equipment grade accuracy, but if it's off, it's off to the same degree as other measurements using the same tool. In this case, it's both me and the motor's energy output. I can compare my 1700 kJ ride to my 2425 kJ ride. I have the context that helps me interpolate, such as heart rate, wind, tire pressure, whether I have a pack or not, etc.

I'll also add that my motor cuts off to very minimal assist at 18.2 mph or so (it displays as 19 mph, and the assist bar shortens to about 1/3 of normal eco assist, maybe 10%). I'm not sure how much eco adds in terms of W, but I would make a wild guess that it's about 40W, maybe less. I just know that it more than makes up for the weight of the bike and any perceptible drag associated to the pedal assist components. With a moderate intensity (165 bpm), with Eco, I am beating my PRs on 2+ min climbs and rivaling KOMs. At my fitness level, I actually have to go a bit easier to not steal the KOMs, so I can briefly check out the comparison in Ride mode, rather than e-bike mode, to see how the bike compares on descents (my Yeti SB5c outperforms it by a large margin, and my E29 is expectedly even better).

I'll add that last night, I tried cheating with Trail and Boost on flatter trails, and couldn't steal KOMs. Some are held by riders I know, and have ridden with, so I know they're not done on e-bikes. I'm in a very high percentile on leaderboards on my normal bike, easily 90th, but I'm just lazier about pedaling over 19mph, since it suddenly feels like a drag. Even going back to my old bikes feels like a drag, until I get a bit of momentum built up and am able to spin a higher gear. It's unexpected that 10 mph solo would feel so slow--I do that on my e-bike following a group with zero assistance and don't feel slow. In fact, I feel like pedaling harder to get a workout and more speed. My normal bikes feel so dreamy over 20 mph though, it's like they're alive again, and I don't have to worry about managing a 45 lb bike slamming into stuff.

Also, I kind of questioned who the maker of the frame is, if it wasn't Astro. Looked into Kinesis, and see that there's a model very similar to their newest Boost FS bikes:








I8610-2018, 27.5''Plous Bosch Suspension -








Save Up to 60% Off LTD QTYS of these 6 Inch / 140mm Travel Full Suspension 27.5Plus / Boost Mountain bikes 2018 Motobecane HAL Boost EAGLE LTD SRAM Eagle 27.5PLUS Full Suspension Mountain Bikes SRAM EAGLE 1x12 Speed Shimano XT Hydraulic Disc Brakes R

I don't see the ebike frame in any catalogue, so I still haven't come to any conclusion yet. Just guessing Astro for now, due to their BB and pierced seat tube forging. Bingo, found evidence (minor changes to rear end):








ASTRO Own Design E MTB Frame - Shimano E Suspension

Also learned that they make frames for these guys, among others such as KHS, Iron Horse, and Wilier:


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Ownership experience update (4 month 1300 mi):

Switching to a 29er front tightened up steering quite a bit and gave me tons more confidence descending on the bike. Was waiting on a Boost adapter set to do it. Set I got off ebay for $13; needed to have the inside ID a trimmed a little, since the 15QR wasn't sliding through 1 spacer.

Went from a 45mm to 35mm stem and felt like it was an improvement for fit. Odd, because it didn't feel so great when I started with 35mm stem from the start. When tucked, my upper arms are now a bit more vertical when my elbows are dropped.

Still getting pedal strikes, especially in any case where my front tire hooks over a step/platform when climbing where I still need to pedal to get the rear up. Waiting for Shimano FC-E8000 cranks to come out aftermarket in 165mm length. They first appeared on the new Canyon ebike, so hoping it's out soon, else find someone to cut and tap 175mm set to a little under 160mm.

Installed CushCore in the rear to give me a bit more confidence plowing into stuff with momentum. Will keep me from holding back on issues like the above pedal strike issue, because rear rim strikes make me cringe.

I did find that the rear hub's end cap is a little loose. Gotta find a ~18mm cone wrench to really cinch it down. It was a reason why the 12QR lever was clocking differently all of the sudden, and why I had to recenter my brake caliper to clear the rotor. Also may have had something to do with my recent RD issue.

My cassette got FUBAR in the 11 and 13t, which I blame on using Boost mode in the default settings, riding the bike on the road and expecting Boost to have enough power to go from 0 to 20 MPH in the biggest gear with me helping. They skip under power now. Rest of the cassette's fine. I recommend customizing Boost mode to low ASAP. I plan on swapping back to 10 spd just to eat up some old 10 speed cassettes I have laying around, rather than going with another 11spd. I especially don't like the 11-46, because of how far the upper pulley is from the rest of the cassette, from setting the RD to clear the 46t cog.

KMC ebike chain showed 0.75% stretch in some spots after 1000 miles, passing in others, so I ditched it for a Shimano XT 11spd chain for the SIL-TEC. Pretty short life for a modern chain; about as long lasting as a cheap single speed chain. All that torque...

Recent RD issue: seems to have been banged inboard when I took a tight right hander dropping into a descent. The upper cage was actually in the spoke. The limits shouldn't have allowed that... no serious sign of any scraping/bashing against a rock. Gonna swap it out and see. The RD hanger wasn't out of alignment enough to explain it, just ~2mm in one axis (2mm measured at the rim; was pretty much straight). Trouble shifting into the 11t and limit screws are at their extremes and still not ideal. Gonna stay away from the end gears until I can see if a new RD fixes it.

Oh, and the Pike's charger 2 damper was looking a little low and the negative air chamber had at least 5cc worth of grease that wasn't doing anything besides taking up air volume. Feels very comparable to a Yari in a parking lot test. The Pike RC on my E29 feels better, but I did a full service on that changing out its damper oil and seals, while I merely topped off this one.















Used a spray bottle and cloth to clean the rear half of the bike and the dripping hasn't caused creaks/squeaks yet. Avoiding hose downs and keeping water crossings to shallow water crossings only.

All pivot bolts still tight. Bike pedals with decent behavior, definitely on the squishier side of the spectrum though.

Rear wheel only knocked out of true a little.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Decided to see how easy it is to clean, due to getting caught riding in the rain and getting a lot of road grit on it. Was also curious about the extra challenge of cleaning around the pierced downtube. I'd normally just ride with it dirty, considering it all to be a protective layer. I had only planned to just spot clean, when it proved to be necessary for doing other maintenance.















^ Before: I rode it like this for over a month.






















^ After just a brush and bucket. Ended up using the compressor to see if I could get in the nooks and crannies.








^ After going over the bike with a magic eraser to scrub where needed, and microfiber cloth to wipe dry. Only looks good from far away, in low res. xD

Made me appreciate designs like the bikes in the background, without all sorts of things exposed to rear tire spray.

Addressed the loose rear hub end caps by just using vice grips to hold the one side requiring a cone wrench. Had to re-tune my rear shifting afterwards.


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

Varaxis said:


> Decided to see how easy it is to clean, due to getting caught riding in the rain and getting a lot of road grit on it. Was also curious about the extra challenge of cleaning around the pierced downtube. I'd normally just ride with it dirty, considering it all to be a protective layer. I had only planned to just spot clean, when it proved to be necessary for doing other maintenance.


Thanks for your detailed long-term review. I'm considering this bike in Small or the Haibike SDURO womens for my wife. A couple of questions.

1) Does the standover they show the website measure from the lowest point of the toptube, or a more realistic position of few inches forward? Standover is very important for my wife given her height and proportions.

2) How well does the Walk assist work in steep hike-a-bike situations? My wife is 115lbs and pushing a 50lb eBike would be very challenging for her.


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## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

Hi Varaxis, I’m guessing you haven’t ridden a Commencal ebike yet, but comparing this Hal eboost with the Commencal base model full suspension, which bike do you think you’d buy new today? The Commencal seems similar with same e8000,but for $500 more you get a somewhat better rear shock and arguably more appropriate rims at 35 mm width. But lower spec brakes and front fork, plus 10 speed drive train which may not necessarily be worse on the ebike. Commencal geometry seems more modern as well and is probably the better descender.


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## noshortcuts (Nov 29, 2005)

Bikes Direct also has the ugliest and least eye-friendly site on the internet. And It seems to never change - or at least, it does not ever improve.


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## Steve Adams (Sep 17, 2010)

Really, who cares. They give awesome bikes for awesome prices. I was sceptical first but after seeing these bikes in action, I am in for a bunch of them!


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Update: I think I have close to 3500 miles on the odo. Only rode the ebike 4 times in the last 10 weeks, and two of those times were in the past 8 days. So I've got to test for wet gritty rides, lots of mileage to wear out the tires, chains, and cassette, and now also for neglect.

Things to report: 
- Front brake shudders at under 5 mph. I suspect poor bed-in.
- Dent in rear rim. I suspect I either got lazy with checking air, or it lost some air from thorns/goatheads.
- Rear brake lever has a click in it. From laying the bike on its side in a pick-up truck's bed, to get a ride to a meetup at someone's house. Bike was resting on it sort-of, when I went to retrieve it.
- Chain busted from falling off the inside of the chainring and me rolling the bike backwards, which the caused the wheel to pull the chain and jam and twist it.
- XT 11-46 cassette's 11t and 13t cog skips under torque, but it had 3000 miles on it anyways. I'll blame using boost mode on the road, while in those gears, possibly even stopping at intersections and trying to restart in those gears.

I only recall crashing 3 times on it. 
#1 OTB from jamming wheel into boulder at too slow of a speed, ~8 MPH, at night. Only damage suffered was a Magicshine 880J light's mount and wire snapping.
#2 Night ride on section of trail called "Rock Salad". Was a while since I rode it, and almost tried rolling off a sheer drop-off into lawn dart. I ejected, but held onto the bars, and got pulled down with it. Only damage suffered was my jeans getting ripped at the knee.
#3 Tried to emulate some "Deathgrip" style riding, going down a long steep slope without touching the brakes. The bike lost control, and I held on for a good 5 seconds or so with it bouncing side to side every time a wheel touched down, eventually bucking too hard to hold on. The bike flipped itself after I ejected and let it go. Only damage suffered were to my set of lights and shorting my Y-cable splitter. Lost the bezel and optic to my bar light, and the mount broke on my helmet light. The day after, I noticed my KS dropper post wouldn't lock securely and slowly sag under weight and slowly rise when out-of-the-saddle.

Quirks:
- Sags my friend's Thule T2 hitch rack, when loaded into the 2nd furthest spot. Loads fine into a single tray 1up USA hitch rack (haven't seen it transported that way though).
- Can't be loaded on another friend's roof rack, which ratchets straps both wheels and has a downtube clamp on a swivel boom. The boom just isn't stout enough.
- If you turn the battery off while low, for example to make a quick food stop at a store, it can possibly read as having no power left when you turn it back on, perhaps due to cooling down.
- Seen the battery indicator actually regenerate a bar at least twice, despite having no function for it. I suspect it happens since it'll drop a bar relatively early if you use Boost, but if you turn if off shortly after it shows it lost a bar, it might later "regen" it back, since it's probably just reading the voltage over a period of time.
- Walk mode is lame. Wish it were stronger. The times I need it, pushing up something a normal person would push a bike up, it offers hardly any assistance. My shoes struggle to get grip pushing the thing up.

All-in-all, no real complaints about the ownership experience. It's no more demanding than owning a normal bike, save for the charging part. I've forgotten to charge it a few times, but it pedals easily off. I have the motor off for 99% of group rides, only turning it on if I suspect I will stall out. Typically, I'll "cheat" on challenging climbs that less than half the group would clear, as stalling out and needing to push is a pain in the ass. Pedaling up 48 lbs isn't bad at all, seriously. I'm keeping up as if I were on a normal bike.

I initially got it because I was "ebike curious", but find that I can live without it. It opens a lot more opportunity to bike, which I used to explore/adventure. I was already living carless before getting it, and rode the ebike a ton for a few months after getting it, but fell into doing the same old habits afterwards. I thought it cured my upgraditis, but right now I feel an urge to ride something with modern geo. The stuff I explored wasn't worth coming back to, and the stuff I do come back to is better experienced on a better handling bike.

Pics from crash #3 (hard to tell the steepness, but I'd have trouble climbing up it with the ebike):


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

Just ordered one of these for my wife. 

Any updates from existing owners?


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I frequently ride my HAL-e over hills behind my home as a detour, just as a little bit of added off-road fun, and to get some climbing and raw descending in.

It's been raining quite a bit in my area, and so far it's mostly been puddles and slightly sticky slop. I found a gap in the rain when the sun just came out to ride, and did my usual routine, but came upon a weakness--the HAL-e's mud clearance is questionable when run with a 29er in the rear.









I dismounted and found that even my shoes were sticking to this mud, then slipping back down, trying to push the ebike past the steep part of the climb. I had to get off the trail and find some embedded stone to walk on instead. I was passed by someone on a dirt bike who made it up no problem.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Full pic of the bike with 29er F&R. This was a quick grocery store run for me. Front mud guard could use more coverage, to be more utilitarian/functional. I leave mud guards and the light installed full time. Passed 6k miles on the bike, but I've been splitting time on a prototype mtb with experimental geo.


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## wallydog (May 18, 2017)

What do you think of the 29 wheels that as opposed to the 27.5?


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Pros of 29 over 27.5+ with the HAL-e:
- doesn't rim strike when riding over curbs on the road (17-22 psi in stock Rekon tires couldn't even take curbs at 5 mph)
- fewer pedal strikes
- more precise & predictable when ridden fast & hard, less squirm
- doesn't hydroplane if there's a puddle in the middle of a turn
- more selection of sturdy tires (Eddy Current was the only plus tire that survived my riding)

Cons:
- soft loose terrain that hasn't been compressed and smoothed by traffic slows it down greatly
- more likely to ping/deflect off small obstacles and slip
- mud clearance severely compromised
- a bit more ground feedback makes things like washboard bumps annoying
- 29er wheels less stiff/strong feeling, compelling me to opt for carbon that's 2-3x the price

Adventuring/exploring the paths less traveled, and enjoying it, is one of the note-worthy things emtb enabled me to do. It still does this okay with 29er tires, just takes a bit more finesse. More like a normal bike, less like a "monster truck". The monster truck feeling didn't work on hard chunk, but was noteworthy for bushwhacking. I did some surprisingly effective trail maintenance last year by rolling those plus tires over overgrown weeds, pushing them away from the trail, fixing entire trails solo; way more productive compared to when I used hand tools along with 5+ others. I feel like I'm more encouraged to get a tougher workout from my rides with 29er, rather than just cruise. I'm more likely to repeat trails with flow, while the novelty of riding stuff without flow or purpose wears off quicker.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

"Motobecane hal-e. Looks like a cool whip! "

Looks cool alright, but how many $1000 bills you gotta hand over, more then a couple.

I like the sleek lines and how nothing really sticks out. I've always liked the camo effect but not proprietary expensive parts. Myself, I'd just buy a Cyclone TW mid drive and slap it on any ole fs mtb. I saw a store bought yesterday, not sure what brand it all was, but mid drive probably Bosch 200W or whatever your classes state. Again integrated mid drive looks sleek 100%. I have too many diy ebikes laying around myself, but again the motobecane hai looks sleek, and has smooth lines. Def worth looking at if you want to empty your bank account a few g's.


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## sendler2112 (Mar 27, 2018)

Can someone with a HAL e 42cm or 46 post some measurements? Lay a tape measure across from the seat to the steerer with a weighted string hanging down to the crank so that we can see the reach to the front and the set back to the seat clamp. These are offered again and I am thinking about buying one in lieu of the much more expensive Orbea Rise. I have a HAL Boost in size 43 and it fits well but barely. I am within 10 mm of the maximum extension of the seat post and the seat rails are all the way back to the bend to get my knees to the correct pedaling position.And it is still a bit more forward than I would like. My concern is that the HAL E like yours is listed with sizes the go from 42 to 46. I need the seat post to go up to 68cm/ 26.75 inches from the crank center to the rails. The geometry states a virtual top tube of of 605mm for the 42 but neglected to list a value for reach. Which not only tells us how far forward from the crank to the stem, but also the remainder of the difference designates how far the seat rails will be back from the crank. My 43cm HAL BOOST has a 590mm top tube and is a bit too short with 415mm reach from the crank vertical to the bars, leaving 176 from the crank vertical back to the seat clamp. I would order the 46cm HAL e but this adds 10mm to the height of the stem. Hear is the HAL electric with external battery geometry. Note the crucial missing dimension of reach.
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.
Here is the HAL BOOST analog version which includes a value for reach
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.
Using my tape measure with plumb bob measurement technique for the HAL BOOST 43 I get a virtual top tube of 561mm, reach of 378 mm which leaves a seat clamp set back of 182 mm including the slight seat back of the seat post head on this dropper. My seat rails are about 680 mm extension from the crank with 175 mm arms and 10 mm of adjustment remaining in the tube for this dropper that came with the bike. They state that this dropper is "380 mm" overall.
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.
My specialized Camber medium (too small for me in hindsight since Specialized's sizing tends to run small) has top tube 590, reach 413, which leaves a seat set back including the (ultra rare) 40 mm set back seat post of 178 mm.
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Specialized geometry charts highlight the dimension you are pointing at. This is reach for the Levo SL.
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## sendler2112 (Mar 27, 2018)

Nobody has a HAL e and a tape measure and string to help me determine what size to order?


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## sendler2112 (Mar 27, 2018)

The stated specs and the measured values are not the same for any bike. Especially seat tube angle. My 43cm HAL BOOST states a top tube and reach of 591 mm and 415 but the actual measurements of my bike at my seat height and to the top of the stem are 561 mm and 378. Interestingly, the specified seat set back of top tube minus reach at 176 is pretty close to the measured value which includes the set back of the clamp of the seat post and measures 183. Which is about the minimum for me. I wish Motobecane would have published the value for reach of the HAL e as they do for all of their other bikes so I wouldn't have to be bothering anyone to try to find out which size to order. I emailed bikesdirect but of course they never actually handle any of these bikes so they wouldn't know how the the HAL BOOST and HAL e frames compare and never wrote me back.


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