# FlyPaper Pedals take 3rd at Angelfire...



## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

Eli Krahenbuhl, age 24, from Cheyenne, Wyoming, took third place out of a field of 52 pro-mens downhillers at the Chile Challenge race this past weekend, riding on his new pair of FlyPaper Pedals.

Prior to the weekend, Eli had installed a new pair of someone else's "same as most of the others" fat, generic, 24 millimeter thick platform pedals on his Trek. After just a few runs down the rocky, technical course, his new pedals were sporting bent-over pins, and even had one pin ripped completely out of the pedal body, removing enough aluminum on it's exit, to prohibit ever replacing it. Both sides of both pedals also had numerous huge gouges in the aluminum pedal bodies. It appeared that he had bashed each of his pedals into the rocks several times per run.

Being a mechanical engineering major at the University of Wyoming, Eli immediately recognized and understood the many benefits of FlyPaper Pedals as soon as he laid eyes on them. The only problem was that the race finals were already well under way, and he wouldn't have a chance to try them on the race course, before his final race run. We decided to install them on his bike and let him see how they felt. If he didn't like them, we would have just enough time to swap back to his old set-up, before he would have to hop on the lift and head up the hill to the starting line.

After we finished the install and lowered his saddle ten millimeters, Eli took a few laps around the parking lot and commented that he could already notice a difference. He mentioned one particular super-chunky rock garden that he kept thinking he would like to try pedaling through, but had never quite been able to talk himself into trying, which he was sure that he could pedal through now, with the extra grip and pedal clearance of his new FlyPapers!

With time running down before his race run, Eli threw his gear on and headed out for a few minutes on some of the crosscountry trails near the bottom of the mountain, to try and get more of a feel for what his new pedaling limits were...and then it was time to ride up the lift and line up for the moment of truth.

Although he had only placed 17th in the pro-mens downhill at last year's Chile Challenge, I was confident that he would podium, and not only told this to several of my friends who were there, but also called several people back home in Sedona and told them my prediction.

Waiting for the 17 minute lift ride and the numerous other race runs that preceded his, gave me a few anxious moments. Being able to see only the bottom 10 seconds or so of the course, which was fast and not too technical, everyone looked pretty fast as they slid through the last few turns.

Bradley Benedict had been the first racer down the mountain, and had turned in a time that was well over seven seconds faster than any of the previous day's qualifying times. Over 45 riders later, he still had a sloid lead. Then Lars Sternberg had a blistering run that finally knocked Mr. Bennett back to second place.

Next up was Kain Leonard, who bested lars Sternberg's time by over 4 1/2 seconds! Matthew Fisher took his best shot at the kings of the hill but couldn't crack the top five.

Finally it was Eli's turn. It had been almost a minute since Matthew fisher had crossed the line, and still no Eli. For me, the tension mounted with each passing second. After what seemed like an eternity, he slid into sight. With the timing clock behind me, I couldn't see if he was on the pace or not. As he crossed the finish line, I quickly turned to see that Lars had now been bumped back to third...Eli was in second place, with only two more racers to go!

Now the tension was even higher. Time slowed even more. If both remaining riders had stellar runs, Eli could get bumped back to fourth. I wasn't aware that the podium now includes the top four racers, and I was thinking that only first, second and third places would be standing in front of the crowd at the end of the day. After having heard several naysayers say that FlyPaper Pedals couldn't possibly be worthy of downhill racing, especially on a real rocky course, I wanted so badly for them to carry someone to the podium their first weekend they were in production.

Keiran Bennett was the next racer on the course, and managed to bump Kain Leonard by only two one-hundredths of a second, which bumped Eli back to third.

One racer remained, Aaron Gwin, who had qualified over a second faster than Kieran Bennett the day before. Could he put together another fast run today? It would have to be extremely fast; as his qualifying time from the day before would not even break the top ten at this point. I glanced up the hill, and then at the clock. Up the hill again. At the clock again. Back up the hill. Back at the clock. And then, the timing clock's numbers kept rolling over. He did it! Eli had ridden the FlyPapers to the Pro Men's Downhill Podium, his very first run down the mountain on them!

I ran over to where the riders were all gathered, and congradulated him. I asked him how the pedals worked. He said they were so much better than what he had been riding, and that they had performed flawlessly. Had he hit them on any rocks? He said that he didn't think so. We grabbed his bike and looked at them together. Not a scratch!

I had been carrying another pair of FlyPapers with me all afternoon, and showing them to people. As Eli headed to the podium to get his third place plaque, he grabbed the extra pair and took them up with him.

I could not have been more proud or more excited.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

so is that your company...because it sounds like it


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## Alloy (Feb 11, 2004)

Cool story... when are you going to start selling those pedals??? I'll buy a pair right now.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Alloy said:


> Cool story... when are you going to start selling those pedals??? I'll buy a pair right now.


you don't even ride....I hear you were hangin with vegas show girls all weekend in a jacuzzi suite


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## kamikazee ideki (Jul 2, 2007)

its alright smt we all know ur jealous


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## combatkimura (Jul 17, 2007)

That's a great story. They still have to have a proprietary crank setup though right?

I've already designed a shoe with an axle mounted right under the ball of your foot that uses a very strong magnet to hold it to the crank arm. No pedal at all, what's up now Bike Doc?


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## frisky_zissou (Jun 4, 2006)

If they could do away with proprietary crank I would <3 them.


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

i like my freekin normal pedals just fine.


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## Big Mike (Oct 26, 2005)

Flypapers on the podium!! Congratulations Dean!! 

And delivered with your usual literary flair...


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## mobile chernobyl (Apr 12, 2006)

Lets get a picture of the production model pedals! I think this is the coolest thing to happen to pedals, well since pedals! The "STACCATO 8" was just a marketing ploy for a not-so-revolutionary design, yours however is something totally unique that doesnt need fancy injection molded plastic peices to dress it up. If you can get prices right, and the proprietary crank to be designed like a cro-mo crank with MINIMAL crank exposed beyond pedal threads, you may just have something kinda... revolutionary?

(sorry if a pics already been posted, strict firewalls here at work lol)


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## Mwehahaha (Oct 3, 2006)

this guy sounds like a poor technical rider... I am sure he is faster than me... but 1st and 2nd did just fine on whatever pedals they were riding.

Good story nonetheless.


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## clockwork (Dec 9, 2006)

Spam


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## mobile chernobyl (Apr 12, 2006)

Mwehahaha said:


> this guy sounds like a poor technical rider... I am sure he is faster than me... but 1st and 2nd did just fine on whatever pedals they were riding.
> 
> Good story nonetheless.


You try riding at pro speeds. **** happens, and anything that can help prevent **** from happening is often highly welcomed in the pro ranks.


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## Mwehahaha (Oct 3, 2006)

mobile chernobyl said:


> You try riding at pro speeds. **** happens, and anything that can help prevent **** from happening is often highly welcomed in the pro ranks.


I do. and my " fat, generic, 24 millimeter thick platform pedals" have held up just fine without any problems.

I wasn't trying to get flamed, just saying that MAYBE pedal placement should be watched a little more.


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## helimech (Mar 21, 2006)

Ya my buddy bought a pair and was up all night in the condo installing them before race day.
As was said you buy the hole crank assy also (FSA gravity extreme's).
Later.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

*`*



mobile chernobyl said:


> Lets get a picture of the production model pedals! I think this is the coolest thing to happen to pedals, well since pedals! The "STACCATO 8" was just a marketing ploy for a not-so-revolutionary design, yours however is something totally unique that doesnt need fancy injection molded plastic peices to dress it up. If you can get prices right, and the proprietary crank to be designed like a cro-mo crank with MINIMAL crank exposed beyond pedal threads, you may just have something kinda... revolutionary?


your right. theres lots of inexpensive pedals out there that are lighter then pretty much everything, have replaceable AND customizable cages (you want flat? you got it. you want concave? you got it), that have a very well setup bushing system for the axle. Staccato 8 pedals are a great idea. The only thing about them that other people have covered are light weight. if you screw up the cage, who cares! get a new one. theres no need to bash on the idea, its very clever and hasnt been done before.

anyway,good luck with the pedals bike doc, if you find a way to get some really light cranks (running glite 83mm bb right now) that are compatible with the pedals (and if the pedals themselves are light) all at a reasonable cot, i might just try em out. but right now, most people dont have the money to buy a proprietary crank AND pedal at the same time for botique brand pricing.


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## LonesomeCowboyBert (Apr 11, 2008)

FlyPaper Pedals take 3rd at Angelfire...


Have you got a phone number for the pedals, id like to talk to them about racing technique and girls and sh1t


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Why don't you just get some Orwelliens?*

If 20 millimeters in pedal thickness makes no difference to you and you are so careful with pedal placement, that you never hit your pedals, maybe you could show us all the benefits of riding 44 millimeter thick pedals... or how about 64 millimeter thick pedals... or maybe you are REALLY careful with your pedal placement and could do nicely on something even 20 millimeters thicker, like some nice ' 84 millimeter thick Orwellien Pedals.

Seriously though, EVERY pro rider's bike that I checked out was sporting plenty of fresh rock marks on their pedals. And I'm sure that they were all trying to be really careful about their pedal placement. Then again, they were all trying to push the limits of their equipment and gain every slight advantage possible, which means that they were pedaling anywhere they thought they could get away with it, including any of several rock gardens. Then again, there were some rock gardens or at least sections of some rock gardens where nobody pedaled, as the chance of hitting a pedal was just too great. Somewhere in between the places where everyone pedals and the places where nobody pedals, are the places where the FlyPaper Pedals really shine.

Since Eli didn't have any time to do any practice runs on his new FlyPapers, he didn't get to really push them to their limits; they were really just acting as more of an insurance policy at THIS race. Between now and Deer Valley he will have time to learn the full capabilities of them and should be able to push the limits of them to the point of hitting the occasional rock!

You're all welcome to check his pedals out at the end of that race, to see not only how little they get hit, but also to check out what does happen when they hit rocks at pro-level speeds.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

This post reads like a review in MBA.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Staccato 8 FTW!








Just kidding...


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Sounds interesting...*

...until the powerful magnets pick up a few rusted cans and old horse shoes. But I think you should still pursue the idea until you perfect it. I'll look forward to seeing it at Interbike this September!


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

Man, we already tore that stupid magnet idea apart in another thread. It's already been tried and failed by several other companies.

As for flypapers, I want some on my trials bike. NOW. Will you have product available for sale or can I arrange to pick up some samples at the show? I'll be sure to track down your booth.


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## Mwehahaha (Oct 3, 2006)

Bike Doc said:


> If 20 millimeters in pedal thickness makes no difference to you and you are so careful with pedal placement, that you never hit your pedals, maybe you could show us all the benefits of riding 44 millimeter thick pedals... or how about 64 millimeter thick pedals... or maybe you are REALLY careful with your pedal placement and could do nicely on something even 20 millimeters thicker, like some nice ' 84 millimeter thick Orwellien Pedals.
> 
> Seriously though, EVERY pro rider's bike that I checked out was sporting plenty of fresh rock marks on their pedals. And I'm sure that they were all trying to be really careful about their pedal placement. Then again, they were all trying to push the limits of their equipment and gain every slight advantage possible, which means that they were pedaling anywhere they thought they could get away with it, including any of several rock gardens. Then again, there were some rock gardens or at least sections of some rock gardens where nobody pedaled, as the chance of hitting a pedal was just too great. Somewhere in between the places where everyone pedals and the places where nobody pedals, are the places where the FlyPaper Pedals really shine.
> 
> ...


I am not hating on your product. I think that it is a great innovation, which is what this industry needs more of. But for you to say that your pedals are the reason he got third is wrong... I bet he still would have gotten third on whatever pedals he used. Luckily for him (and even more so for you) the flypaper pedals were available for him to use.

It is like saying that because a rider had to use a $20 headset instead of a $200 headset he would not do as well...

All I am saying is that your pedals are not the reason he got third. Maybe I should have worded it better in my first post.


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## SnowMongoose (Feb 18, 2007)

FWIW, the difference in a few millimeters distance from sole to spindle is huge...
I was doing a shakedown 'down the block' ride of my most recent atrocity, using regular shoes on chunky old ATAC pedals, and could feel the foot rolling as I pedaled...
Going the opposite way (sole closer) would be rad.

+1 for getting sales started, and another +1 for non proprietary cranks.

Last thing, most of us who have followed the 'papers as you've introduced them have deduced that you are the creator, but you might want to throw something about that in your sig.


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## NoManerz (Feb 10, 2006)

How do you use flypaper pedals when you have some muddy shoes you dabbed in a corner? On normal pedals the mud goes out the cage. I'm not sure you can squeeze mud out those funny little holes.


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## Foamzilla (May 2, 2007)

At first I thought it was gimmicky, but then I realised how often I pound my pedals into stuff since going to a thicker pedal. 

Just 4mm in increased thickness has trippled my hits. 

If I could lose 10 mm and lower my effective BB height, I'm all over it!


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## Bulldog (Jan 13, 2004)

Bike Doc said:


> The only problem was that the race finals were already well under way, and he wouldn't have a chance to try them on the race course, before his final race run. We decided to install them on his bike and let him see how they felt. If he didn't like them, we would have just enough time to swap back to his old set-up, before he would have to hop on the lift and head up the hill to the starting line.
> 
> After we finished the install and lowered his saddle ten millimeters,


Don't forget to mention how you needed to swap out his crank arms, which involved messing with a chainring and a chainguide setup as well....


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## Alloy (Feb 11, 2004)

Wow you guys are pist.... have you seen these pedals? You get the benefit of lowering your bottom bracket without the cost of scraping rocks. Yes it's spam, but who cares, it's a cool new product. Besides spam nerds would have kept quiet if someone else had discovered the article and posted a link. But that probably wouldn't have happened and then most of you wouldn't get to read the race report or hear about one of the few non copycat mtb products coming out. 

I say let small start up companies spam away. ....If it was me I would give you fckers spyware! ...just kidding, you all have enough spyware from Googling porn.


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## 1soulrider (Jan 21, 2004)

Interesting idea, and cleverly done.
The price ($350ish) plus the fact you are stuck with a very limited, proprietary crank choice is a bit of a turn-off.
If you could adapt the concept to fit any conventional crankset, you would find much wider acceptance.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

What kind of pedals was the 1st place rider using?


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Yes, it is...*

Our company is named "Momentum Bicycle". The FlyPaper Pedals are our first product. We are working on a clip-in design, as well. We hope to reveal that at Interbike this year. We have many other products in the works. All of them are very innovative and different than anything else on the market. Our products are different for performance reasons, not just to be different. They are a result of a lifetime spent as a bike mechanic, and being frustrated by other products that are what I refer to as 90% engineered, or in other cases, products that just plain suck @$$. We will only make products that we want to run on our own bikes. We will not follow through on any ideas that do not show real benefits. All of our products will be super burly and strong. If they are also light, as are the FlyPapers, great, but light is not our main (or even secondary or tertiary) focus. I frequently ride way out in the desert, often alone, and often where a simple failure can quickly become a survival situation. (Sometimes I run out of water, without any delays, crashes or mechanicals, so adding those in, when I'm miles out in the desert could get real serious, real quickly.) The bottom line is that I want to be able to count on my bike not to break. Therefore, I ride a "trail bike" that weighs over 44 pounds. Even with a bike this heavy and burly, I am known for breaking lots of parts. Most recently, in the past 3 months or so, I have destroyed an Azonic DH hub and a Hadley DH hub. Our products will all be backed with a very good warranty, as we will not sell anything unless we are confident in its ability to withstand extreme amounts of punishment. Our warranty will not be voided due to jumping, competitive use or commercial use, as so many other companies do. We want you to ride often, ride hard, and push yourself and your equipment to new limits, with confidence. My years of riding in places like Zion / Saint George, Sedona, Boulder City, Moab, Brian Head, etc; combined with my involvement with the Red Bull Rampage, Josh Bender, and several other top riders that I've worked with when filming extreme bike videos, as well as my lifetime of bicycle mechanic experience, combined with my business partner's knowledge of metalurgy and his lifetime of machining experience; is your guarantee that we know what we're talking about, and not just blowing smoke. By the way, my partner, Tim, is 55 years old, and has NEVER owned a car, preferring for various environmental, political and health reasons to be a bicycle person. I hope that this gives you a better idea of who we are and what we are all about.


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## Foamzilla (May 2, 2007)

1soulrider said:


> If you could adapt the concept to fit any conventional crankset, you would find much wider acceptance.


That's an understatement too!

I probably would never try one if it requires a new crankset, one that I might not want.

Compatibility to existing cranks is going to make or break this product in terms of being a new hit. You have to be pretty big and established to be pushing proprietary parts that make the product work right.


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## jasonvelocity (Jul 21, 2006)

Jayem said:


> What kind of pedals was the 1st place rider using?


I am going to guess 1st place was running Crank Bros, as that was one of his sponsors: http://kieran-bennett.blogspot.com/2008/05/two-weeks.html


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## atomicAdam (Sep 19, 2005)

seriously - this is old and beatin - either put up or shut up with the product.

besides - if these were so f'in great - why aint sam freakin hill running them, w/ his 6 inch bb height and all.


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## frisky_zissou (Jun 4, 2006)

atomicAdam said:


> seriously - this is old and beatin - either put up or shut up with the product.
> 
> besides - if these were so f'in great - why aint sam freakin hill running them, w/ his 6 inch bb height and all.


Money dictates what parts 'sam freakin hill' puts on his bike.


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## ledzepp4life (Jan 27, 2005)

these pedals are in all honesty a great idea. however that being said, if they create no weight advantage to regular thick flats dh riders and racers alike will have no reason to buy them. you say pedaling efficiency and less likely for pedals to slip then just go to clips.if you could make it so they used a normal pedal spindle which you could use with all cranks you would have a vast market of people to sell to.i would like to know how much they are and how much they weigh.i for sure think they are durable enough, i have never seen a pedal snap in half ever and would be suprised if anyone else on these forums has either. but these pedals dont really offer anything that you cant get from normal mallets.


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## atomicAdam (Sep 19, 2005)

frisky_zissou said:


> Money dictates what parts 'sam freakin hill' puts on his bike.


frisky_zissou gives a lesson on how to miss a joke.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Jim311 said:


> This post reads like a review in MBA.


that hits home......too true


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*That's not quite what I'm saying...*

I'm not saying that Eli got third because of the pedals. I'm saying that he got third with the pedals. And I'm saying that he did so with no practice runs on them. Which is to say that they have no negative learning curve. They do have a learning curve, but it is a positive one. The moment that you first get on a pair of FlyPapers, they are just instantly better. The only thing to get used to is how much better they are.

Hypothetical situation:

Imagine that you just got new tires with twice as much traction as your old tires. You know that you can wait later to brake, because with more traction, you can decelerate quicker than on tour old slippery slicks. You also know that with more grip, you can corner faster than before. Since you can corner faster, you don't need to scrub off as much speed as you used to, so you can wait even later to brake than what you first thought. This is what I call a compound benefit, or in other words the cornering benefits of your new double-traction tires adds to the braking benefit you receive. It will take various people anywhere from a few runs to several weeks of riding to learn the new limits of this set-up and to fully realize the benefits of having twice the traction that they are used to. Nobody is likely to just get on these new tires and immediately on the first run, use them to their full potential. In fact, on the very first run, you may find it hard to trust going any faster than you were already used to going.

FlyPaper Pedals are like that. They offer several performance advantages, which allow you to go faster, and these advantages can compound each other, working together to give performance advantages beyond what is first obvious from any individual advantage. Learning most of the subtle advantages of them took me about two months. Like any new tools, you get better at using them as you become more familiar with them. What I was attempting to point out in my original post, is that while there is a learning curve to these, it is not a negative learning curve. You don't have to do anything different. There is nothing about them that will slow you down or make riding your bike more difficult than it was before. Nothing about them feels weird.

If we return to our hypothetical double traction tire, we can easily see that they might have a negative learning curve, as all that extra traction might also equate to extra rolling resistance on the straightaways. While shorter braking distances and faster cornering speeds might eventually allow for faster overall runs, the extra rolling resistance may at first actually make for slower runs, until you fully learn the capabilities of their performance advantages.

Of course, FlyPaper Pedals won't MAKE you any faster, but they will ALLOW you to go faster and faster, as you learn their capabilities. Obviously, Eli didn't push them to their full capabilities, as he was not yet familiar with them. This is obvious, because he didn't get a single scratch on them. Once he learns the new, expanded limit of ground clearance that his bike now has, he will pedal through even rougher chunder, and as he pushes the limits, he will occasionally tag them on a rock. Kind of like when you get longer travel suspension, and you go bigger than you had ever gone before, and you eventually bottom it out.

So, while i'm not saying that he got third because of the pedals, I am saying that they are worthy of riding at pro-level speeds on a very rocky and technical course. And I'm also going to say that if he had ridden them long enough to learn what they will allow him to do, he might have won that race by a good margin, rather than coming in third. (Let's see how many of you get your panties in a bunch over that statement!)

The Deer Valley National is happening four weeks from now. That should be enough time for Eli to learn at least most of what FlyPaper Pedals are capable of. I can hardly wait to see how he does in that race!


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## venom600 (Jul 10, 2006)

This whole post seems an awful lot like SPAM. Except....is it really spam if consumers can't actually buy the product? I'm confused...and annoyed...get a company website and s3ll j00r warez there...


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## ChromedToast (Sep 19, 2006)

I love hearing the pedals are doing well.

We can point and laugh at all the haters and non believers now.
[email protected]

Is it bad form to quote yourself? I will be getting a pair as soon as I can.



ChromedToast said:


> I weigh 230-240ish and break lots of things, I would gladly test them for the fat people. I could promote them too. I love the pedals, and I want to try them as soon as they are available. I was actually thinking of how one would make a super skinny pedal a couple days ago and how they would feel.


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## NoManerz (Feb 10, 2006)

NoManerz said:


> How do you use flypaper pedals when you have some muddy shoes you dabbed in a corner? On normal pedals the mud goes out the cage. I'm not sure you can squeeze mud out those funny little holes.


Not going to answer my question?

OK, I got it, they don't work in mud... :madman: :madman: :madman:


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## ChromedToast (Sep 19, 2006)

ledzepp4life said:


> these pedals are in all honesty a great idea. however that being said, if they create no weight advantage to regular thick flats dh riders and racers alike will have no reason to buy them. you say pedaling efficiency and less likely for pedals to slip then just go to clips.if you could make it so they used a normal pedal spindle which you could use with all cranks you would have a vast market of people to sell to.i would like to know how much they are and how much they weigh.i for sure think they are durable enough, i have never seen a pedal snap in half ever and would be suprised if anyone else on these forums has either. but these pedals dont really offer anything that you cant get from normal mallets.


The reason is a more stable platform. You need a basic understanding of physics to understand why they are better. The closer you get to the pivot point, the better. Skis are a good example. You use risers to increase the leverage you have on the skis, making them effectively less stable. Duct tape a couple blocks of wood to your pedals and try to ride around.


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## mobile chernobyl (Apr 12, 2006)

Bike Doc said:


> By the way, my partner, Tim, is 55 years old, and has NEVER owned a car, preferring for various environmental, political and health reasons to be a bicycle person. I hope that this gives you a better idea of who we are and what we are all about.


No offense, but in my mind, and I'm sure many others, the only idea thats going to give me is that "Tim" is a washed up Hippie. Just trying to give you some insight on how your casual speaking words can be misinterpretted by others.

Please post up some pictures of the proprietary crank and pedal unit ON a bike, or being ridden. Myself as well as many others would much appreciate this. If you have a website for more information including size specs as well that would be great. You do indeed have a very good product in your hands, but you need to address your possible clientel with more visual media and less poetic hero stories if you want to avoid another one of the original flypaper pedals thread (i.e. people argueing based soley on e-speculation).


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## yoginasser (Sep 14, 2006)

You can obviously adapt them to a standard crankset as this picture shows







(FSA gap)

Why not offer both options so that people can have a choice? I for one wouldn't mind a proprietary crankset (especially if it had innovative features),but without that the purchase would make less sense.
I do love the idea behind these pedals BTW.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

yoginasser said:


> You can obviously adapt them to a standard crankset as this picture shows
> View attachment 364642
> 
> (FSA gap)
> ...


That crank was modified to fit those pedals. You should read/look a bit more closely.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

I think those pedals could use some work in the aesthetics department as well. Right now they look like a sheet of 1/8 aluminum plate with a few holes drilled in it. The concept is good, but the application leaves a little to be desired.


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## yoginasser (Sep 14, 2006)

XSL_WiLL said:


> That crank was modified to fit those pedals. You should read/look a bit more closely.


Thanks for pointing that out Will,but it doesn't seem to me that modifying these pedals to suit any crank would be such an engineering problem.Am I mistaken?


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## yoginasser (Sep 14, 2006)

Jim311 said:


> I think those pedals could use some work in the aesthetics department as well. Right now they look like a sheet of 1/8 aluminum plate with a few holes drilled in it. The concept is good, but the application leaves a little to be desired.


I can imagine that the plate can be cut to any shape or size depending on the specific riding application,I for one hope for more options.


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## wyrm (Jan 19, 2004)

Can I get mine concave???


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

Immediatley Bullcrew noticed the engineering mastery of these flat spongebob looking peddals with his BS degree in kung foo arts, he immediatley took them home and started smacking the Hell out-a-flys!


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## atomicAdam (Sep 19, 2005)

wyrm said:


> Can I get mine concave???


but on which side is the real question?


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

On the lighter side the whole proprietary thing kills them off, especially with the threads concerning which cranks, Peeps are into assembling a variety of stuff, if not the the integrated bar stem combo would have caught on!
People accessorize and parts should be engineered from that standpoint. Part of the reason peeps are flaming about the new trek 88 HS set up!
Just my .02 cents


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## Bulldog (Jan 13, 2004)

Alloy said:


> Wow you guys are pist.... have you seen these pedals?


Not at all. And yes I've seen them. Cool idea but the requirement of custom cranks is a huge downer that makes this product marketable to only a few.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Sorry for the slow answer...*

Actually, they work great in the mud. I have some photos of riding the prototypes in thick, sticky clay at Turkey Mountain in Tulsa, OK last December. It took me a while to locate them. Now all I have to do is figure out how to get them from my camera to my computer. Then I'll have to figure out how to resize them. And then I'll have to figure out how to add them to MTBR. While that might be second nature to many of you, I suck at computers. It may take a while. Also, I type a blazing twelve words per minute if I don't make any mistakes or revisions. And I have lots of other things to do besides posting here. In fact, I'm about to take off and go down to the shop and work on some projects for the next few hours. It may take most of the weekend for me to respond to all of the questions that are already posted, and to load all of the photos of the production version of the pedals that you're wanting to see. Sorry I'm so slow, but we didn't have computers when I was a kid, I never took typing classes, I've never worked an office job and things like having to click "start" to turn this PC (Piece of Crap) off just boggle my mind. I never know if what I'm trying to get this damned thing to do is hidden somewhere in "file", "edit" "view" or "tools"; (Sometimes the description of what I want to do seems to me like it could be a sub-catagory of any of those one-worded columns, and then I can't find it in any of them. Words often times have multiple meanings, and the computer geek that devised the program was thinking of one meaning of the word, but that is the least likely of the three meaning for that word that I would ever consider...) or accessed through some retarded tiny little icon picture or if I have to go to "start" and click on "programs" to fight my way through the maze to do something that some twelve year old can probably breeze through in three seconds. Anyhow, be patient and I'll post as much of this stuff as fast as I can...

Thanks,
Dean


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## HighTitan (Jan 26, 2007)

he took 3rd because all the top pros were at the US Open!!! ohhhhhhh haha sorry, had to say it.


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Heh, yeah most of this does read like spam but I like the concept and I can't wait to see what the clipless version looks like. Cool updates and when can I buy one!


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## Surfinguru (Feb 6, 2004)

Christ, what a bunch of punk a*s *****es you all are! The guy's out there in the trenches trying to make something better for all of us all you can do is bag on the guy. Disgraceful IMO. It's good thing all the other innovators throughout history didn't listen to their distractors. 

Dean, keep plugging away. While I would have to agree with some of the previous post about proprietary cranks, if you can work out a system that works with any crank, I honestly think you'll see fairly significant change in attitude. Good luck!


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## bullcrew (Jan 2, 2005)

Im just goofing on the name, I think they are intresting. Thr proprietary crank is a deal killer but the pedals look decent.

1: Fix the crank thing if possible and you will entise more peeps!
2: Dont know what cost is but if they dont come in colors your going to have a issue with a premium tag
3: if they are not easily rebuildable try and make them so with over the counter parts

Aside of that I like them, they are intresting and innovative.


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## konut (Mar 25, 2006)

surely theres gonna be a weight limit,you cant have something that thin that will repeatedley take fumbled drops to flat with out breaking.

testing it in dh is no good either as most people good enough to get in the top 3 are gonna be super smooth,have you done any fail tests or actual riding tests,i,e freeride as tim and his roadbike dont cut it.

and wether or not i need cranks im still not convinced by the concept,as you will have to test your cranks also,and if your so slow at computers we can forget the idea of a speedy response in the case of warranty.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*You are right...*

You are absolutely correct about a speedy response to warranty issues. As slowly as I type, it will take me two to three minutes to print up a shipping label that you could probably get done in 30 to 45 seconds.

As for the weight limit thing, what is the weight limit of the pedals you are now riding? And how about the cranks that you ride? What about your handlebars? How heavy of a rider are they rated for? Perhaps you can tell me the weight or torque rating of the Hadley hub I recently ripped in half on a climb... is it possible that I am too fat to be riding one of those? (Does this hub make my butt look too big???)

As for what methods we use for testing, that is proprietary information, but let it suffice to say that minor but important changes from the prototypes to the production models were based on the results of several different types of tests. Due to several tests and measurements, we were able to make the production pedals stronger, more durable AND lighter than the prototypes. They also have better grip, better mud clearance and look much nicer. What tests were done on the components you are now riding?

FlyPaper Pedals are designed to be one of the burliest components on your bike. They are Clydesdale rated and Rampage rated. So go ahead, eat more pizza; drink more beer; it's O.K.!!!

We offer a three year warranty against bearing failure. The pedal bodies, bearing shafts, the crank modification and all of the hardware except for traction pins are warrantied against bending, breaking or otherwise failing for five full years from the original date of purchase. Our warranty is transferrable, and is NOT voided by jumping, freeriding, competitive use or commercial use.


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## jackie harmony (May 29, 2008)

I give props to Dean for the production of the pedals and to Eli for getting third on one of the most difficult courses out there. Why do so many people have to be so negative. So, someone thinks they have a good product and just so happens a pro racer wants to try out the pedals right before his race run, why not talk about how well the pedals worked and how well the rider did. Dean isn't pushing the pedals in your face and if you don't like what you read don't comment on it, go onto the next forum. 
One more thing, don't trash the pedals if you haven't even tried them. I think they are awesome.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Here you go...*

Here is a photo of a complete crank assembly, with the FSA Gravity GAP Cranks. It comes complete with an integrated bottom bracket that FSA calls the Mega Quad EXO, which basically means that it is an external type bottom bracket, with a double-row bearing on each side for extra durability. They are available in 165mm, 170mm and 175mm lengths, with either a 22-32-Bash or a 22-32-44


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## Djponee (Dec 20, 2006)

wow, pedals are really geting good, since they can now pedal themselves and race.


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## AllOver (Aug 4, 2006)

Surfinguru said:


> Christ, what a bunch of punk a*s *****es you all are! The guy's out there in the trenches trying to make something better for all of us all you can do is bag on the guy. Disgraceful IMO. It's good thing all the other innovators throughout history didn't listen to their distractors.


I couldn't have said it better myself. More power to the designer for trying to do something differently, thats how innovation is pushed. It beats a lot of companies whose biggest selling point year after year is just shaving some grams off of their product (which is good, but far from innovative).

I will go ahead and say the obligatory proprietary cranks are a big turn off. Please use your good engineering skills to figure out a way to make them work with standard cranks.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Actually they can...and they have...*

The first production run of Flypaper pedals is done. Several have been sold and are being ridden and enjoyed by their new owners...which reminds me of one of the biggest benefits of all; FlyPaper pedals make riding even more fun!!!

As for the web site, I'm working on it, but I'm pretty darned slow at computer stuff. Hopefully I'll get it up and running before I leave for the IMBA Summit in Park City in a few weeks.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Mud clearance holes in action...*

Here is a photo of the prototypes, taken at Christmas time in Tulsa, O.K. at a place called Turkey Mountain. It was a sloppy, muddy day. about 45 minutes into the ride, there was a steep uphill that none of us cleaned. After pushing our bikes to the top, we all had about 3/4" of sticky clay mud clinging to the bottoms of our shoes, turning them into moonboots. About a mile later, we stopped to wait for some of the slower riders to catch up and I happened to look down at my pedals and saw these 1" long "mud snakes" squirting out of the mud clearance holes like a Playdough extrusion. (The pedal was flipped over to be better able to show them.)


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Although these worked well...*

Although the mud clearance holes on the prototypes worked well, we more than doubled the size of them for the second version of the prototypes, and then chamfered the edges of the holes for even better mud flow on the production models.


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## Irrenarzt (Apr 19, 2006)

What do you need to do to a crank arm to make them work? I'm a machinist so I can handle modifying a set of my cranks (Saints).

Post up the OD of the thru shaft.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Poor technical rider...*

Headline:

Poor technical rider with limited pedal placement skills take third in Pro Men's Downhill on one of the countrie's most difficult and technical downhill courses!!!


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## ducktape (May 21, 2007)

I think the production version is looking a lot better than the original pictures I've seen.

You're getting a lot of hating because people just love to resist new products, especially when someone posts an obvious plug. Get your advertising wrong and you'll get even more resentment before people even give them a real chance.

However it's probably those same people that would buy them purely out of trying something new on their ride.

You obviously have a "different" factor, you have the looks (which won't be liked by everyone), and providing your claimed performance comes through, well you're set.

All I can say is good luck on the launch, hope they do well. And certainly down the track if they are affordable I'd give them a go, to try out something new and innovative. However if I have to do modifications to my cranks, or don't need new cranks (if that's the only way they come) then I'd say you won't see me as a future buyer.


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## ridingsupreme (Apr 14, 2008)

i saw those silly pedals.. over priced and under developed. I think whoever is going to be producing those should put more thought into it before actual production models can be sold.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Actually, the chainguide was fine...*



Bulldog said:


> Don't forget to mention how you needed to swap out his crank arms, which involved messing with a chainring and a chainguide setup as well....[/QUO
> 
> But we did have to swap out the chainring for a bigger one, which is why I said that we would've barely had enough time to swap it back if Eli hadn't liked the FlyPapers...


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## igotbanned (Oct 20, 2007)

Hey BikeDoc, 
I totally dig the idea, but the fact that they need proprietary cranks kills it for me. 

Is there a plan for making them work with normal cranks in the future or not? If you could manage that, I would buy a pair ASAP.

Nice idea though, props to you for making it happen.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Weighty issues...*



ledzepp4life said:


> these pedals are in all honesty a great idea. however that being said, if they create no weight advantage to regular thick flats dh riders and racers alike will have no reason to buy them.
> 
> i would like to know how much they are and how much they weigh.


Here are a couple of photos of weights. The first one shows two pedal body/bearing shaft machinings with twelve traction pins and one spare grease port plug screw lock-tited into each, two bearing shields, two inboard sealed cartridge full complement bearings, two outboard sealed cartridge full complement bearings, two retention bolts with integral bearing sheilds, with two locking wedges (one installed in each retention bolt, two bearing cups, and two grease port plug screws. Total weight: 344.3 grams

The second photo shows two psplined pedal nuts and two pedal washers, which are removed from the crank arms prior to machining the inboard bearing cups and the threads for the outboard bearing cups into the end of the crank arms. Total weight of parts removed: 28.7 grams

344.3 grams minus 28.7 grams = 315.6 grams

This still does not take into account the small amount of aluminum that we machine out of the splined pedal nut interface portion of the crank arm. I have yet to weigh a set of cranks before and after (I keep forgetting) to see what the total weight of aluminum removed is, but I'm guessing that it is somewhere betweek 5 t0 10 grams per crank arm, or in other words, between 10 to 20 grams per set, making the net weight of the pedals 300 grams +/- 5 grams either way.

Compare that to Wellgo Magnesiums, the previous lightest weight pinned platform pedal, at 378 grams.


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## chris_d (Apr 5, 2008)

It's funny how everybody is acting like he and the whole basketball team banged your sister..... 

Dude sounds like a cool guy, a vet of the sport and industry. I'm sure he has better stuff to do than waste his mind making bullsh!t products......

Chris


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*We have been experimenting with different designs...*



Jim311 said:


> I think those pedals could use some work in the aesthetics department as well. Right now they look like a sheet of 1/8 aluminum plate with a few holes drilled in it. The concept is good, but the application leaves a little to be desired.


Jim, you are absolutely right. The prototypes looked really beautiful to me when we first finished machining them, but now, after trying out a few more advanced designs, I look back at the originals and think that maybe they are just a bit less than pretty.

By the way 1/8" aluminum would measure .125" and would not be strong enough. FlyPaper Pedals measure a robust .146"! A .125" thick pedal body would also be too thin to have enough thread engagement for the traction pins, which is one reason why we gave up on making an ultra-razor-thin steel version of the puppies...


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## ledzepp4life (Jan 27, 2005)

thats what i wanted to hear, 300 grams is damn light for some flats. i am sure a lot of guys are on the crank bros 50/50 like me and even the xx which i have are still like 558 grams.that right there alone for pedals would save people half a pound. now if you could only make them have an internal pedal spindle i would buy a pair. have you experimented with an idea similar to that?


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Hey CAVE-man, you've been CON-ed*



wyrm said:


> Can I get mine concave???


Time to crawl out of the dark ages of pedal history and out of your con-cave... CONCAVE IS A HOAX!!!

O.K., not quite a hoax, but an intermediate step, shall we say, to the new RAMPED-UP technology...

Let's look at what about concave platform pedal bodies works and what doesn't work.

First, why do concave pedals feel like they have more grip? It is because the front edge of the pedal body is higher than the middle of the pedal. In the early part of the pedal stroke (say maybe from about the 1 o'clock position to the 2 o'clock position) you are pushing as much forward as you are pushing down. If the front edge of the pedal body is higher than the center of the pedal, it is like having an upward-sloping ramp in front of your foot, keeping your foot from slipping forward as easily, thus the feeling of more grip.

Now let's look at what about concave platform pedal bodies doesn't work. With platform pedals, if you try to pedal too hard, too early in the pedal stroke, where you are pushing much more forward than down, if the pedal is an old, rubber block type, beach cruiser pedal, your foot will just slide forward, right off of the pedal. If, however you are riding any modern mountain bike platform that is anything but bottom of the line, Huffy junque, it will most likely have steel traction pins to dig into the bottom of your shoe. With pinned pedals, (and especially withh good, tacky rubber soled shoes) if you pedal too hard, too early, rather than your foot slipping forward, off of the pedal; instead, the pedal tends to roll or flip forward under your foot. The thicker the pedal body, the more pronounced this tendency to roll or flip. As someone pointed out way earlier in this thread, this principle of physics is easy to demonstrate by duct taping a couple of wooden blocks to either side of your existing pedals, an exercise I whole hearted ly reccomend that you try for yourself. (Just be careful, as this can be dangerous, even in the parking lot!)

If you were to photograph a platform pedal flipping a rider's foot off, using a high speed camera, shooting 30 or more frames per second, you would notice that the moment the pedal starts rolling forward, only the rear edge of the pedal remains in contact with the rider's foot. You can illustrate this by using your hand or foot on top of the pedal of a parked bike, to very slowly roll the pedal forward. After the very first millisecond of the pedal starting to roll forward, the only thing that makes it roll further forward is the contact point between the rear edge of the pedal body, and the rider's shoe. Therefore, we can see by this exercise that the most critical point for controling pedal roll is the rear edge of the pedal body, or more specifically the height of the top of the rear edge above the horizontal centerline of the pedalbody. When a pedal is made concave, both the front and rear edges of the pedal body are higher than the center of the pedal body.

Look closely at the photo and you will see that the traction pins on FlyPaper Pedals are off-set. The traction pins are 12 millimeters long and continuous, using one set of pins for both sides of the pedal body. This photo shows a left side pedal. Notice that the pins on top stick out further on the front edge of the pedal than on the rear edge, and if it was turned over, that it would still be the same.

Now think about hitting a pedal on the rocks. Where is it most likely to hit? Obviously on the bottom, rather than the top, and most often on the front edge of the pedal. The traction pins on FlyPaper Pedals are installed with the solid end down and shorter on the bottom in the front , as the solid end can better handle impacts, and by being short, is more likely to avoid impacts altogether, in the first place. The pins stick out farther on the top of the front edge, and have the wrench sockets sticking up to give an extra edge to grip your shoes. Also, by sticking up farther in the front than in the middle, you get a similar feel to that of a concave pedal body. And by having the pins on the top of the rear edge of the pedal body sticking out less, the tendency to roll or flip under your foot is reduced even further than just having a thin pedal body.

And for those of you who absolutely insist on having a completely concave shape to your pedal, you can always run longer pins than the stock 12 mm on the front and rear edges, or shorter ones in the center, or both.


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

Get some for the xt crankset and I would be down for a purchase. They look wayyyyy better than the original proto's. Props on your product dude.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*I saw your silly post*

I saw your silly post... over hyped and under developed. I think whoever is going to be posting those should put more thought into it before actual ideas can be told.

Where did you see them? Did you try riding them? How would you develop them further? What would you do to reduce production and distribution costs? I'm all ears.


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## dusthuffer (Nov 30, 2006)

The wave ends look weird and alien like.


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## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

Hey Bike Doc, I think your full of it. You can type just fine, nobody hunts-and-pecks and manages to post that much within an hour  . Love the stuff, keep it coming, thanks for the quick answers!


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## moshelove (Jun 8, 2005)

I think they look great and are an awesome idea. Too bad you have to buy cranks too. Why would I want to buy new cranks just to get a small pedal advantage?

If you can fix that problem I and many other open thinkers would be customers over night.

Good luck.


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## 545cu4ch (Aug 11, 2005)

Bike Doc said:


> Headline:
> 
> Poor technical rider with limited pedal placement skills take third in Pro Men's Downhill on one of the countrie's most difficult and technical downhill courses!!!


haha advertise much?


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

*Be Careful!*



Bike Doc said:


> I saw your silly post... over hyped and under developed. I think whoever is going to be posting those should put more thought into it before actual ideas can be told.
> 
> Where did you see them? Did you try riding them? How would you develop them further? What would you do to reduce production and distribution costs? I'm all ears.


Watch out there Bike Doc..... Posts like this will make this a hard endeavor for you. As someone who is heavily invested into this product "fly-paper" pedals, and want to push this onto the MTB world, you got to watch how to talk to the guys here. I am not saying you did anything wrong, but sometimes peoples temper and pride gets in the way of effectively pushing a product.... And that is bad news for everyone. There are going to be people that do not like you product, you can't bash them or humiliate them on the forums. Check out the IBEX issue with good ol' jack.. Talk about someone who had a chance and blew it...... Just saying,.. be careful.

Also,... the pedals look like a good idea to me. I would be willing to give em' a try, if they were easily available, and cost effective. How much is the retail on those bad boys?


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## Irrenarzt (Apr 19, 2006)

pride can be a biitch eh?


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## konut (Mar 25, 2006)

ha ha i see yourt typing skills are improving.

surely could you not make the pedal spindle thin enough to fit through the original crank arms and have a flat head bolt fasten through from the back side,like in your posted pics.

like mentioned above they are gonna be easier to sell that way,as i have just recently built my bike up and installed new cranks and the idea of fitting new cranks just aint gonna work.

also i have noticed that warranties in the usa dont mean **** when they cross the pond.


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## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

Irrenarzt said:


> pride can be a biitch eh?


Too true.... too true... You just have to weight what's on the table... with what are the "worst" case scenario's...... If it were me.... I would learn to take critism, especially somewhat "constructive" critism... if it meant me making a few $$$. That is just me...

Oh.... you don't like me..you don't completely like my product, but you are giving me your money for my product????????.... seems worth the struggle to me... You just have to deal with the BS from the negative consumers and try your hardest to make them happy... A happy customer will tell his friends about the product... That's all...


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## NoManerz (Feb 10, 2006)

Those mud holes look great!!!

Any plans for saint cranks?


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## wyrm (Jan 19, 2004)

Bike Doc said:


> Time to crawl out of the dark ages of pedal history and out of your con-cave... CONCAVE IS A HOAX!!!
> 
> O.K., not quite a hoax, but an intermediate step, shall we say, to the new RAMPED-UP technology...
> 
> ...


The question is a damn joke, I didn't really think you would respond to it!!!! Get a sense of humor.


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## SPEEDMONKEY (Jul 15, 2005)

*You are a moron.*



HighTitan said:


> he took 3rd because all the top pros were at the US Open!!! ohhhhhhh haha sorry, had to say it.


Hey douchenozzle, look up the last 2 years results of Pro men DH at the Garbanzo DH at Crankworx. You will see Eli can compete with the best in the world.


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## karateka (Apr 16, 2007)

BikeDoc, have these pedals ever bent to the point of unusability due to a crash?

interesting product. these pedals would drop the total bike/rider centroid by around 5mm. miniscule, but hey it adds up!


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

BikeDoc.... so.... what's the price?


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

great news


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## Kanga (Sep 14, 2004)

I was just out in Sedona where Chewy told me that there had been a production run... so I'm back on this thread to see what the deal is. They look good.... keep the development coming!


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

do you have plans to try and remove the need for a proprietary crank, or for any lighter cranks? i'm running glites and an 83 mm BB with syncros mental mags. Its a pretty light weight combo, I'd be willing to give them a shot if I can run light weight cranks/pedals. I don't even mind proprietary cranks (although obviously i'd prefer not to have them) so long as they're not so heavy. 

Any words on the cranks? that seems to be the one thing everybody is asking about and the one thing you're not saying anything about.


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## seb_dh (Mar 26, 2008)

Bike Doc - I would like to buy a set of these, I have the money and can pay today. That said I don't actually know how much you're charging. You say they're in production and selling, but you don't seem to want to give us any information on how to buy them or how much they are??

- seb


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