# Creating a Signature in frame design



## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

I've had a couple of Frames come my way for minor alterations. 1 was to convert to a single speed. While doing this task, it has occured to me that once the paint has been stripped, there are no signature features that identify its origins.

The Universal Bike Frame (UBF) is in my mind bland.

During the period of my frame building experience (early 1980's) frames of the hand built nature had their names embosed on the seat stay cover plates, fork crowns and some times the BB shell came in for attention.

There were many badges riveted to the head tube and prestige was accounted in the NAME.

In my journey in creating my own Signature, I developed the idea of the seat stay cluster as being the area for attention.

I see the introduction of the seat clamp as the culpret in UBF design and has limited creativity (Stinner an exception)

Perhaps its time to look at this area, and introduce a fresh look at this area, here is my effort:

Hope to see some stunning efforts.

Eric


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## teatreetim (Nov 14, 2011)

Are you worried the flex of that clamp opposes the welded joint? That looks like it was quite a bit of work to make.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

It looks like lot's of dirt flung from the rear wheel is going to be an issue.

Personally I really like the serial number to identify a bike. Clockwork did this on his "New Light Tourer".


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

The fit is very neat, there is only a millimetre of movement between slack and tight. No seat stem slippage. I developed this double bolt design to specifically suit a carbon stem and took into account a minimal flex area/carbon mechanical grip requirement. Worked a treat.

It was inititially a serious headache to me for 2 weeks, until I mastered the parallel nature of the 2 halves. Once I got this issue sorted, it is very easy to make. I made it out of scrap panel steel in stages, brazed, then filed. The great thing about Hobby building is that you have time to cruise and work it all out.

Eric


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Certainly not bland...*

2 weeks for a seat binder? Wow, I'd scratch my eyes out after about 5 minutes... but then again, I have a schedule to keep. Sometimes I wish I was just building for myself again, it's a lot less stress.

Can we see some wider angle pics of the whole frame?

-Walt


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Firstly, Mark, the hose has cleaned it no probs so far.Yes, it is a mud trap. Umm...the BB serial number is nice, but not what I had in mind, the old world bikes I refer to had a Letter carved right through and you had to use a sleeve in the BB to keep water out.

Walt, I agree this is not an easy to mass produce item, the second one I made for a handlebar took 2 lunchtimes, about 1.5 hrs to you usual grafters.

Best pic that I have, looks better as an assembled bike. The E-stays throw the visuals a bit.

Eric


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

Thanks, Mark. I actually stole the brass serial number badge from Brad at Capricorn. Though it's funny you should use that pic because I actually consider that BB cable routing to be a signature. I do it on all frames with under BB routing.

-Joel


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

That seatbinder looks like a pierced, misshapen vag!na.


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## Live Wire (Aug 27, 2007)

The seat binder looks great, but I'm really digging the post mounts on that frame.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

Allot of work in it but that binder is kind of a 23 piece hammer & just about every raised chainstay bike I ever saw that was ridden lots broke (likely compounded by the flattened downtube in your case) but at least it keeps you off the streets at night, huh? 

At least you are making what you see - it still looks like either a Haro model I can barely put my finger on or a Brave-GT-Hooker combo project. 

Have you ever looked at some of the old Mantis bikes? they made some cool ones, although most of them broke - esp. the raised chainstay ones.

I'd like to make some cool projects but I have to keep making what pays the bills!

- Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.


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## vulture (Jan 13, 2004)

I chased that "signature" thing down the rabbit hole for a while, but what I learned is that you cant substitute signature for quality. Instead of spending two weeks building a rube goldberg seat cluster, spend two weeks practicing your welding. Quality is a signature. Good or bad, on bicycles for the most part it has been done before. If you don't see an idea around much it probably sucks.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Exactly*

I like my "signature" to be getting ecstatic phone calls and emails from customers loving how their frames ride. I could basically care less what they look like in front of the coffee shop or at a bike show. I mean, I don't want them to look like crap, but looking like "just another frame" is fine as long as the fit and the ride are right.

-W



vulture said:


> I chased that "signature" thing down the rabbit hole for a while, but what I learned is that you cant substitute signature for quality. Instead of spending two weeks building a rube goldberg seat cluster, spend two weeks practicing your welding. Quality is a signature. Good or bad, on bicycles for the most part it has been done before. If you don't see an idea around much it probably sucks.


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

vulture said:


> I chased that "signature" thing down the rabbit hole for a while, but what I learned is that you cant substitute signature for quality. Instead of spending two weeks building a rube goldberg seat cluster, spend two weeks practicing your welding. Quality is a signature. Good or bad, on bicycles for the most part it has been done before. If you don't see an idea around much it probably sucks.


Like


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## Lupob6 (Apr 21, 2012)

^ :thumbup:


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Umm.. where do I start. Vlad, I never thought of it that way, ever.. you destroyed my innocence. Next time I pass by it, things will never be the same.

Perhaps I need to try again...sigh. The point of what I was trying to express was the trademark identity of a product. I am well aware that my frame is not a production item, it is not a show pony either, I tried to achieve both an asthetic appeal and resolve the engineering issues associated with the E-stay frame. I do not wish to challenge a good ride that is made, rather the identity of it.

For example, I can identify a Wolfhound by the seat sleeve, a Waltworks fork by the coin used to the top of the fork leg, but I cannot see Walt's frame. Amongst the mass market makers, GT out alone with their seat stay treatment. None of these things are high tech or time consuming to do.

If for instance I use the coin idea that Walt has as his Signature/Trademark, where could you put 1 on the frame that would be complimentary to Walt and his product, take only 5mins of time to do and be unique?

What if we to look at 2 areas where that could happen, eg: somewhere on the rear drop-out, say
between the S/S and C/S in an insert of the drop-out. Another area could be the now redundant brake bridge, cut a short slot on the top edge and have the coin part showing - or maybe use a BMX style plate, coin in the center.

A bit corny, maybe, Art is always subjective, but I have seen some really nice work in steel that cannot be replicated in any other frame building material. Why not expliot it.

The classic bike frame has stood the test of time well, yet if any of you were to make a Suspension bike, you would without question resolve design issues to overcome any number of problems, therefore creating a trademark look that sets yours apart from others. There becomes a standard for 1, but a classic bike has a UCI like - don't go there - effect. Maybe this is a Polarising subject, or maybe just not been thought about much.

As I have exposed my own effort, this bike has now clocked up 1500 miles with no probs.I read about frame failures, flex etc. I was alarmed to find that these issues were not resolved before suspension bikes were made as to me, the issues that effected E-stays carried over to Sus frames. If I were now to make a Sus frame, I am better informed as to how to stop BB flex etc, and provide a strong platform for a pivot etc in that area. While I was constructing this frame I stress tested the BB by placing it in a vice and pulling sideways on the headtube and seat tube. Not a high tech method, but effective. The seat tube did not move, its sleeved at the chainstay with ribs extending down to the BB on each side. The downtube flexed alarmingly about 10mm off the BB shell. I had rounded the Mega tube to connect to the BB as I anticipated this problem, but it was not enough so I then added a tongue to each side, and now, no movement. The bike performs in every way like a conventional frame with the bonus of a soft ride from the rear - 405mm chainstays - not an expected outcome. The use of the Mega tube was to get a stronger spine for the chainstay/downtube and head tube connection.

Hope you can see where I'm coming from.

Eric


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

Eric Malcolm said:


> Umm.. where do I start. Vlad, I never thought of it that way, ever.. you destroyed my innocence. Next time I pass by it, things will never be the same.
> 
> Perhaps I need to try again...sigh. The point of what I was trying to express was the trademark identity of a product. I am well aware that my frame is not a production item, it is not a show pony either, I tried to achieve both an asthetic appeal and resolve the engineering issues associated with the E-stay frame. I do not wish to challenge a good ride that is made, rather the identity of it.
> 
> ...


I hear where you are coming from and I don't think there is anything wrong with what you are trying to do but it doesn't usually happen the way you are going about it.

You need to build a bunch of frames and get way comfortable with your process, as you get more comfortable with your process it will change because you will streamline it as you get bored with aspects of it. From this you will create a shortcut or two. From one of these, your signature move or piece or file mark will emerge and Bazanga! youre set for life.

Dont' force it, it will just look forced.

BTW, I like the clamp but it sort of reminded me of Admiral Ackbar...


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

j-ro said:


> Don't force it, it will just look forced.


This.

I think some of the best "signatures" aren't of the "hey look at me" sort, but the unique details that represents an actual solution to a problem, or reflect a specific manufacturing process.

Study Garro's blog, you'll see it in action.


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## davesauvageau (Jan 8, 2010)

I really like how simple Joel's bikes are. I am going to save over the summer for a CX frame and fork. I chose him because his process is beautiful and the end product is simple yet effective. Props on building a nice bike Clockwork!


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## mickuk (Jul 6, 2007)

Signatures don't really float my boat - but my motives for homebuild are similar to yours - making the stuff you know may / may not work and spending / wasting  time trying details that don't make sense if you are making a living from it.

My E-stay is also still going strong. The problem that exists e-stay vs suspension is where the rigid chainstays have a big bending moment in the place where a swingarm has a pivot (vastly reducing the bending moment in the stay itself). I've never found bb flex to be a problem, and dropping the stays as low as possible reduces both flex and bending moment. One day I expect it will break somewhere down there - which is all part of the "fun" and good info for my next build.

The one bit that has developed a small crack is on the unsleeved seat tube. I knew this was a gamble when I made it - the wise Mr Garro fastidiously sleeves that area for very good reason..........


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## kampgnar (Apr 13, 2007)

Echoing what has already been said, "signature" should be second to mastering the basics of design and construction. If you've got those wired, "signature" can come as a natural extension of your skill set.

IMO if the seat stay cluster is going to be your attention-getter the weld joint quality is inconsistent with what you put into the binder. Spend some time dialing in your TIG skills and it may give you insight into another process you hadn't thought of.


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

mickuk said:


> The one bit that has developed a small crack is on the unsleeved seat tube. I knew this was a gamble when I made it - the wise Mr Garro fastidiously sleeves that area for very good reason..........


I learned the same way you did!

- Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I completely understand what you are talking about and why it interests you. COMPLETELY. If all of the basics are there - it rides and performs really well, and you can streamline and repeat the process without undue effort - then I see no reason why you shouldn't try for something "interesting." The problem is that last word. It is exceptionally subjective at the least. It is also much harder to pull off than the conventional, in both a technical and stylistic sense, which is why you don't see that much of it in production settings, even from smaller builders.

I have only one problem with it, and this is my personal opinion derived from my own lifetime of creative efforts across many different _genres_; I really don't like the way it looks... at all. Stylistically, geometrically, perhaps even to some extent structurally, it just doesn't work for me.


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## ade ward (Jun 23, 2009)

A concern would be having twin bolts does the top bolt need to be torques to a different value to the lower bolt to give the same clamping force , 
But what it might give you is a larger clamping area , 

I am a fan of estay bikes having had a couple made to my design , the first was too flexy in the bb to run a belt drive but I have run it with a chain and alfine without once loosing the chain , the second version had a much lower chainstay which precluded the use of a fd but my bike is either singlespeed or hub gear so no loss to me , this one is much better


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

vulture said:


> I chased that "signature" thing down the rabbit hole for a while, but what I learned is that you cant substitute signature for quality. Instead of spending two weeks building a rube goldberg seat cluster, spend two weeks practicing your welding. Quality is a signature. Good or bad, on bicycles for the most part it has been done before. If you don't see an idea around much it probably sucks.


I liked your "diamond" seat stays, Wade. Did limit the tubing choices, though.


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## shandcycles (Jan 15, 2008)

I think is a signature is a great thing to aspire to. However, it will come when it comes. You don't want to force these things. And as others have said, I'd spend more time on the rest of the frame before sinking that amount of time into a seat binder.

TBH, when I see that frame all I can see is fork legs for chainstays, don't even notice the binder!


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

Clockwork Bikes said:


> . Though it's funny you should use that pic because I actually consider that BB cable routing to be a signature. I do it on all frames with under BB routing.
> 
> -Joel


Does that mean that they all shift poorly?


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I have a French track frame from the '60s or '70s that has double seat post binder bolts. I've never seen one before or since. It's a signature, but not a very good one


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

Signatures can be much more subtle things also.

Seat binder - some guys do it in the rear, some in the front. Some make the opposite side from the binder pointed, some rounded, some flush cut (flat across).

Dropout connections to stays - Some guys scallop and fill with brass. Some do a 45. Some guys do hooded drops most of the time.

Brake bridges and Disc reinforcing bridge - some use a cut-up disc rotor, some use straight tube, some arch the tube, some use pre-made brake bridge pieces.

Stays - some guys get crazy with the bending, some guys go straight as an arrow, some bend just enough for clearance.

Head tube - Some do long extensions above, some do long extensions below, some miter the down tube into the top tube, some do bracing, etc. Some put reinforcing rings, some don't.

Some guys do bi-lam, some guys do sleeves here and there.

There are lots of subtle touches that give clues as to who built a bike that don't necessarily hit you over the head. We all have certain aesthetics that we like or dislike for our own personal reasons and we all have certain construction methods that we do or don't believe in for thos same reasons. All you need to do to develop a "signature" is to figure out what those things are and incorporate them into your design. The signature will follow once you hone in on your construction.


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

O/k, thanks for all the comments. This thread didn't go in the direction I had hoped for, but has been informative none the less. 

I am pleased to hear of the pride in ones product is sound and effective. The mountain bike was born with a view of continuing development. What was made in 1981 by Gary Fisher & co were not really intended to last very long. The bikes broke and better developments evolved them to what we have today. It can be observed from my perspective having been completely away from cycling for 25yrs that the 'culture' has emerged that deems workmanship as the priority, and as builders of frames, the details that defines them has moved on with TIG, unicrown, seat clamps etc. In my time, fillet brazed joints and bead welding were for the cheap 'supermarket' bikes. You never would have considered Tour de France riders riding them. The world has changed and though I tried to focus attention to the way of inventive thought that could bring back a touch of that exclusivity, the MTB stands defiant, awaiting the pounding of a good ride, and well done too, I would be disappointed to see my work wrapped around a tree...hope that never happens to me though.

Francis, you made a good list of what is being done subtly, yes I have noticed them.

Ade also caught onto a design solution with my seat binder with the large clamping area for the carbon seat stem - this is why I did it.

To answer the TIG weld observations, I don't feel personally bad about it, as I did not do this part. Unfortunately, I have not done it before, I am a braze person. I chose the mixed medium for strength reasons and jobbed this part out to a usually good welder, who unfortunately had a bad day, but with Tig, you only do it once. Note to self, do as much of the work yourself so you can control the outcomes. How many times have paint-jobs gone wrong......uhhhhh.

I built my bike with Retro design influences and tried a few ideas, which I was prepared to put under the microscope....at the end of the day, I still enjoy my ride, which is the most important part of doing the build. No one noticed I have no water bottle mounts.......or said anything.

Eric


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

Eric Malcolm said:


> O/k, thanks for all the comments. This thread didn't go in the direction I had hoped for, but has been informative none the less.
> 
> I am pleased to hear of the pride in ones product is sound and effective. The mountain bike was born with a view of continuing development. What was made in 1981 by Gary Fisher & co were not really intended to last very long. The bikes broke and better developments evolved them to what we have today. It can be observed from my perspective having been completely away from cycling for 25yrs that the 'culture' has emerged that deems workmanship as the priority, and as builders of frames, the details that defines them has moved on with TIG, unicrown, seat clamps etc. In my time, fillet brazed joints and bead welding were for the cheap 'supermarket' bikes. You never would have considered Tour de France riders riding them. The world has changed and though I tried to focus attention to the way of inventive thought that could bring back a touch of that exclusivity, the MTB stands defiant, awaiting the pounding of a good ride, and well done too, I would be disappointed to see my work wrapped around a tree...hope that never happens to me though.
> 
> ...


Hey good post, this is a tough crowd. I wish I had half of your patience with it.

Cant wait to see what you come up with next.

jake


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Jake, you're not kidding. I wonder if the line between design and the defensive/attack threat did not exist, some good pic's could have been posted of some nice work. I have seen them, but under the circumstances, if I was following, I would not post them for fear of a good scratch. I reiterate, design is not workmanship, workmanship follows after good design.

Eric


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

OK;

Let me offer some details on my previous statement. These are my personal opinions and I 
hope you take them constructively. My major "gripe" is that I feel you have far too much 
going on visually on this frame, and it is very muddled as a result. I liken it to a wall of random
graffiti instead of just a few signatures carefully balanced for more subtle effect.










- I do not like the Aero DT in this context at all. I'm not sure it serves any real purpose
other than visual, and I don't even like that with everything else going on.

- I'd like to see the SS/ST/TT junction form a larger triangle. With the sharp curve at the
end of the TT, plus the sleeving, plus the twin tubes coming past the ST, plus the 
signature clamp, it is very visually "cramped" with features and joints and so on. One 
reason to do a triangle treatment here is for looks, and this look is too busy. The second 
reason would be for triangulation, and the smallish triangle created here adds very little 
strength to the area relative to larger triangle which would spread forces over a much larger 
area. If there were some compelling structural reason for this, you would like to guide 
these forces away from the area. This small triangle likely concentrates them, and 
possibly in the wrong places.

- I think that two tubes buttressing the CS/ST junction is one too many. I would have either
continued the two CSs on past the TT to the DT junction, or used a single tube. The 
nesting of these two tubes onto the ends of the CSs is potentially an interesting touch. 
Perhaps it could have worked with less of everything else going on. Perhaps not.

- The curvature of the entire extended CS structure is a failure visually. This type of thing is 
very tricky, and I'm not even sure how one would pull it off successfully. To bend a SS/CS 
in one plain can be done effectively and for good reasons; for increased foot clearance, 
some spring effect, and for looks. However, regarding looks, if there is not a complete, 
smooth, flowing arc from end to end, it is REALLY a visual flop. Kind of like the guy who 
throws all kinds of wild maneuvers into a gap jump, only to catch the front of the landing 
ramp with his front wheel. He was doin great, but ultimately... Faceplant! Again, I'm not 
sure how you would bend a tube in the vertical plain that is already s-bent in the horizontal. 
If you could, it would be a stunning visual and technical feat. In addition, with only the very 
small curve at the end of the TT, this curved CS assembly is kind of a visual orphan as 
well, like the aero DT.

Visual trickery and structural necessity are warring factions in any design. It is hard to
justify them to each other, but it is far easier if you limit yourself to just a very few, small 
battles.

Just my $.02. Well... maybe $.03!


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## BigHank53 (May 19, 2011)

This is one of the ugly places that art-cycles lead to.

Many of the builders on here are straight-up professionals, and by that I mean that if they don't work, they don't eat. Build an elevated stay frame that you have to replace under warranty, and say goodbye to meat for a month. Spend the time it would take to build two frames* on a seat cluster...if you can't sell that frame for three times what your normal price is, you've thrown money away. Most of the criticism you've gotten hasn't been directed from an aesthetic or mechanical viewpoint as much a business viewpoint: lose money and your business dies. I remember all those pretty steel frames from the late seventies and early eighties, too, and I also realize how many of those manufacturers are now an office that designs stickers to slap on a Chinese frame.

The standard bicycle frame _is _boring. It _should _be boring. It's an established product with a hundred and forty years of production history behind it. The only things you own with more history behind them are food preparation and eating utensils, some tools, clothing, and books. The optimum design for a steel frame is settled. Case closed. Framebuilders today are the equivalent of bespoke tailors: we make exactly the right frame for a particular customer. Now, is there a market for the baroque, the ornate, the art-for-art's sake? Yes. One can expect the same success that the average artist does: typical lifetime earnings of under $4000 from their artwork.

So. Your seat cluster is quite intricate, and is obviously the result of a lot of hard work. Aesthetically, it doesn't do anything for me...which means exactly nothing. Mechanically, it seems to be answering a question that only you are asking...and now you have made yourself an answer. Congratulations! I am not being sarcastic here; most builders would never attempt something as ambitious. However, from an _economic _perspective, your seat cluster is the equivalent of going swimming with a cinder block chained around your neck.

*I've spoken to several people about how much time they spend on a frame, going from a tubeset to handing a box to the UPS driver. Allowing for exaggeration, bulk prep work, and how much gets outsourced (paint) I've gotten answers from six hours to over a hundred. I figured there was no way to ever make any money from framebuilding if you spent more than twenty hours on a frame--including your sales time, customer consultation, fitting, etc. Certain folks (Columbine, Vanilla) may be able to recoup costs sunk in artful detailing.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Agreed. Keep in mind that Eric is just building for fun and we probably should not have jumped all over him. If he wants to spend weeks making a seat binder, and it makes him happy, that is his business. The vagina comment was pretty funny, though, you have to admit. 

In any case, now that we're firmly off topic, Carl Strong (who is a very financially successful builder and solid businessperson) once said that you can't make any money (as a TIG person) unless you can do the physical frame construction in a single 8 hour day. I think that's a pretty good threshold, because you'll spend at least 3-5 times that amount of time on ancillary tasks like obtaining supplies, talking to customers and designing frame, answering lots of phone calls and emails that generally lead nowhere, cleaning up, doing taxes, shipping stuff, etc, etc. 

And don't forget posting on MTBR!

I probably only spend 25% of my time in the shop. The rest is all other tasks. So while I can easily build a frame in ~4-6 hours of work, I still stay on something like a 1 frame/week schedule. Doing it any slower would make profits hard to come by.


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Thanks for your perpectives. Despite this thread being way off course, it has been informative. 

I laughed heaps at Vlad's comment too. Great stuff.

I did point out the non-production nature of this effort, and I know that the picture was probably at its worst possible angle. But there it is, naked in alls its.......well um. Art is subjective isn't it.

I asked and attempted to convey a thought, but got blown fuses, unfortunately its in my nature to ask questions nobody has, so expect a left field thought from me every now and then. I probably touched a core that I wasn't expecting. 

I want to make clear that I once was a Pro. I left the trade as I saw in my environment/work/lifestyle changing and took up another career path while I was still young. I have not regretted doing that, but you never lose your learned skills. My fellow workmates suffered terribly later when the industry went through recessional cycles.

I admire you who make a living from this trade for your perseverance.


Another area that alarmed you was my comment re: 2wks to make. I better clarify that comment and say it developed over 2 wks. That is, I doodled a drawing while watching TV one evening at home. Played with it conceptionally, balancing the pro's and con's asthetically and engineering wise. Then proceded to fabricate it, getting the parallel nature of the slot was my undoing for a while simply because I approached it wrong initially. It is actually very easy to do once grasped. I am not inplying you should try it, I showed it to give an example, not blowing my trumpet.

I have decided to keep it as my signature, as I am so low volume I do don't threaten anyone.

Now, the E-stay. What can I say, It holds a place in cycling history and individuals will from time to time play with it. I saw many inconsistancies in the early examples, I have, at least in my mind dealt with many of the issues and like many observers, will see how long the ride lasts. So far, its been great.

Trailmaster, thanks for your comments. It deserves more, a buck perhaps?
I am a follower of the strong downtube/chainstay principle, the broken line with E-stay made me look at the strongest possible way to go. It was important to establish a spine that countered forces travelling down from the head tube while resisting those coming from the rear wheel. I did consider round tube of 35mm but I feel it highlights a deficiency of the originals as being too light in this area.
The chainstay bridging to the DT looks fudged and inconsistant - absolutely, it was my plan B. I'll elaborate later. However, using a single larger tube is very wrong IMO. When I was stress testing it, I noticed and could feel flex moving through those 'arms'? when sideways forces were appied through the rear axle. By attaching them in the manner that I did, wide as possible off the CS and splicing them together before they attached to DT is not a signature move but an engineering necessity. It was done to overcome all the forces being applied. Using a single tube would not address the twist that comes on at that point. Like the Mega tube or not, it has to be that way with twin attachments.

The tight seat triangle we could debate for hours, suffice to say it works for me. The benefits in this case was to help strenghten against twist off the rear axle, gives a better load/shock path through this area and supports the seatstem all in one hit. I have noted the soft feeling ride from the 405mm CS. This is counter to all my expectations, it is road bike like in its measurement and should be harsh off road.

Now my admission to failure. I made a consistant curved CS to be used. I formed a 1" x .035 tube, squeezed it into an oval profile, S-bended it, welded it together to prefit into the frame, when I hit a small problem. I was about to mitre the DT joint when I noticed it had moved a little with heat from my jig held position by 8mm on the brake caliper side, so clamped it up in the vice and gave it a big pull. it didn't move at all, gave it a go again and landed on the floor. It split 4" from the rear dropout. I lost confidence to do another one. Would have looked great though and tidied up what you see.

The visual balance is also distorted by the fact that it has 600/400 TT/CS measurements. 

I attach a completed picture the better compliments its visuals. I have not highlighted any of the frame details, it is a simple one colour finish. The overall look is what I would rather you take into context and please don't take the thread direction to another level over the H/bar. It has another story, though it is part of the overall ethos design. Thanks.

Eric


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

I appreciate your good nature about my comment. I'm not hiding it, but I'll come clean: I am not a frame builder. I don't know how to TIG or braze. I'm a journalist. I've been riding BMX since fourth grade, MTBs since '89, and ride a bike made by a builder discussed in these forums every now and then. And my next frame, a SS, will be built by one of you gentlemen. Anyway, carry on.


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

customfab said:


> Does that mean that they all shift poorly?


That housing is pretty bad but with an inch or so it makes no difference. I also use a plastic liner in the housing.


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

Clockwork Bikes said:


> That housing is pretty bad but with an inch or so it makes no difference. I also use a plastic liner in the housing.


Cable routing like that should have died with friction shifters. I couldn't imagine keeping that setup running well on a bike with a modern drivetrain (especially C11) in an environment that's even remotely wet. Putting unnecessary housing on the lowest point that gets dirty before anything else and cleaned last is just a inferior design. If your going to keep doing it anyway the least you could do is slot your stops so the housing could be moved to allow the application of special grease.


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

customfab said:


> Cable routing like that should have died with friction shifters. I couldn't imagine keeping that setup running well on a bike with a modern drivetrain (especially C11) in an environment that's even remotely wet. Putting unnecessary housing on the lowest point that gets dirty before anything else and cleaned last is just a inferior design. If your going to keep doing it anyway the least you could do is slot your stops so the housing could be moved to allow the application of special grease.


4 years of water, salt, sand, and mud with no problem. I think you're speculating.


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

Clockwork Bikes said:


> 4 years of water, salt, sand, and mud with no problem. I think you're speculating.


If only he wielded a torch as well as he runs his mouth


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

If your signature is both appealing and easy to replicate, expect a bunch of others to adopt it. If it's hard to create, you'll regret making it your signature.

Your time is probably better spent crafting yourself into an appealing individual. Bike design is appreciated more by the production buyer. Custom buyers tend to put a higher premium on being part of a builder's experience.


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

Clockwork Bikes said:


> 4 years of water, salt, sand, and mud with no problem. I think you're speculating.


I think your expectations are low


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## Chopshopchopper (Aug 18, 2009)

I like yout seat clamp, and the bike looks great painted and assembled. Id ride it with a smile in the light of day.  :thumbsup:


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## coconinocycles (Sep 23, 2006)

there are FEATURES which are good and not to be confused with EMBELLISHMENTS which are just fine but not to be confused with FEATURES.
FEATURES can be EMBELLISHED but EMBELLISHMENTS do not act as FEATURES. 
My dos centavos. 
All my frames are filled with useful features, but few embellishments with the exception of curved top tubes which when asked what they do I freely say nothing - they are purely for looks - I don't try to sell my bikes through imaginary traits like "vertical compliance and lateral stiffness" and ******** like that.

- Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

Save your "Signature" for your head tube badge!
You have enough other stuff going on with that frame that I don't think you need an over thought, over constructed, seat post binder bolt(machine those too).
As a custom customer, I want a great riding frame.....if I want to bling it I will send it to Spectum!


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Clockwork Bikes said:


> 4 years of water, salt, sand, and mud with no problem. I think you're speculating.


Bottom routing works fine for me, too, at least with a plastic BB guide


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## Bah (Mar 20, 2007)

Eric, I'm afraid that elevated chain stay seems to have no engineering purpose, other than reducing the lateral stiffness of your frame.

Personally it also looks terrible. The seat clamp was nifty, but a bad idea long term, dirt and all. It's also totally unnessesary from a clamping perspective. As a little side note, the weld at the top of the seat tube brace was done very cold and there appears to be very bad fusion.

If your aim was to build an avantgarde piece that can be ridden, you've succeeded. If your aim was to build a functional bicycle, I'm afraid you've failed on many accounts.


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## jgerhardt (Aug 31, 2009)

Bah said:


> Eric, I'm afraid that elevated chain stay seems to have no engineering purpose, other than reducing the lateral stiffness of your frame.
> 
> Personally it also looks terrible. The seat clamp was nifty, but a bad idea long term, dirt and all. It's also totally unnessesary from a clamping perspective. As a little side note, the weld at the top of the seat tube brace was done very cold and there appears to be very bad fusion.
> 
> If your aim was to build an avantgarde piece that can be ridden, you've succeeded. If your aim was to build a functional bicycle, I'm afraid you've failed on many accounts.


 Again a statement with no real purpose other than to re-hash what has already been said by everyone else. While you may agree with what has been said by most everyone else, is it really necessary too "kick a dead horse"?

The guy built something out of the ordinary. While he may have invited it upon himself by saying "look at me and what I am doing different" the dogpile is getting kind of silly now. If the bike is safe and fun, that is all that matters. To just rehash what has been already said by other more informed members of this community is just silly and pointless.


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## vulture (Jan 13, 2004)

jgerhardt said:


> Again a statement with no real purpose other than to re-hash what has already been said by everyone else. While you may agree with what has been said by most everyone else, is it really necessary too "kick a dead horse"?
> To just rehash what has been already said by other more informed members of this community is just silly and pointless.


Happens all the time here, the biggest drawback to forums in general.


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## ade ward (Jun 23, 2009)

This is my estay 29 er 
My reason for going with the estay was I wanted 16" chainstays with loads of tyre clearance


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## jgerhardt (Aug 31, 2009)

vulture said:


> Happens all the time here, the biggest drawback to forums in general.


Oh I agree, however that does not mean I shouldn't call him out in it.


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Having now left this thread to die, I would like to bring closure to any whom read and have followed it to its end. I have received messages that I can see could be seen as offensive to some. 

To all of you who followed, this forum is now read by many who do not live in the USA/UK. Those of us who do not live in prime real estate, we cannot access the Bike shows that you enjoy, shows where I am sure I would really enjoy or even exhibit.

The OR of my thread was to establish a repository of ideas, creations, trends etc that ran perpetually with lots of pictures and hoped that flickr accounts may have opened up in an easy to get inspired single place thread. AHHHH - failure.

Never mind, maybe we could start afresh, when everyone has a mind to.

To those who were concerned, I am not put off by any means. I am aware that everyone will read the same thought with different interpretations, and have diverse conclusions to anyone else's ideas.

I'm over teenagers, and prefer grandchildren. I can handle it.

Eric


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

You have made a distinctive and nice looking bike. 

We all have different goals. I'm not really setting out to have a signature, my goal is that the bikes I build work so well that they are not central to the ride. I couldn't tell you what bike I was riding on some of the most memorable rides of my life, and I think that means they were pretty good bikes.


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## threefire (Aug 27, 2012)

Kudos for making a unique bike frame. You can't please everyone. SOmetimes eccentricity is character... Good luck. 

That said, I am still struggling to get used to it... ;-)


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