# Front knee pain



## dustyman (Feb 13, 2007)

I just picked up a new SC Tallboy a few months back. It’s replacing my 2013 Tallboy which I still plan on keeping. After about half a dozen rides on the new bike I noticed my left front knee is hurting. The seat height is the same as on my old bike but I noticed I am more over the petals with the increased seat tube angle. I also tried raising the seat height. Has anybody experienced this or have any suggestions?


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## Uly (Aug 18, 2009)

I had the same knee pain on my SC Hightower. My position, like you, was too far forward. Every ride I moved the seat back a tiny bit until I no longer had the pain.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

dustyman said:


> I just picked up a new SC Tallboy a few months back. It's replacing my 2013 Tallboy which I still plan on keeping. After about half a dozen rides on the new bike I noticed my left front knee is hurting. The seat height is the same as on my old bike but I noticed I am more over the petals with the increased seat tube angle. I also tried raising the seat height. Has anybody experienced this or have any suggestions?


Uly is on point!

Frankly, seat position can be tweaked in small increments to solve issues like you describe. I also do the seat adjustment if my cadence range is being limited in an unusual way. 
Since I do use my powerband in a known range, seat in relation to BB center line are a major importance item.

Raise it in small increments, lower it similarly. Slide it fore or aft in small increments. Only one change at a time tho' so if it goes down the drain, you know what did the deed and it is a quick fix.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

did u set seat height by measuring the distance from lowsest crank position to top of seat?
if you did then your knee goes through the same range of motion on both bikes.

so why the pain?

if power is applied at the same angular point in the pedal stroke wrt gravity. this creates some new forces in the knee as the knee is less perpendicular to gravity at this time. the knee does more work trying to remain stable

you can compensate and apply power at the same rotational point as you did before on the older bike but this will be x degrees later in the pedal stroke and tend to force you forward. you will have to resist by pushing back with your hands into the bars.

you can compensate by sliding the seat back and if flats, moving the foot forward. this just attempts to undue the steeper sta change.

i believe switching to shorter cranks can help as this does reduce the total angular knee movement in a pedal stroke. and could bring your stroke back into a position your more comfortable with.

and finally. rotating the angle of the seat can have a dramatic effect on where power is applied during crank rotation. tip it back slightly and see how it feels.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

You can always move the saddle into the same position as the old one relative to the bottom bracket.


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## dustyman (Feb 13, 2007)

I currently have the seat all the way back on both bikes. I just have a longer stem on the old bike. My new Tallboy is an XXL 50 mm stem my old Tallboy is a XL 70 mm stem. Both bikes have 40 mm rise carbon bars and 175 mm crank arms. When I ride both bikes back to back I can visually see the bottom bracket is much farther forward on the old bike.


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## pwrtrainer (Oct 23, 2005)

If clipless, review your cleat position as well. I had an older geometry SC blur that I had everything dead set on, but new geo moved me back quite a bit, my cleat position had me now too far back on the pedals, relative to all the other angles, so I moved them a couple MM and that helped me a lot. Also, give any aches a few weeks before changing too much. Pain is not always an indicator of something bad, but stress that your body may just adapt to.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

dustyman said:


> I currently have the seat all the way back on both bikes. I just have a longer stem on the old bike. My new Tallboy is an XXL 50 mm stem my old Tallboy is a XL 70 mm stem. Both bikes have 40 mm rise carbon bars and 175 mm crank arms. When I ride both bikes back to back I can visually see the bottom bracket is much farther forward on the old bike.


The pain could just be an adjustment period. If it persists after a few rides...then you might need to look at other methods to fix the issue. There are droppers that have a setback head. Femur length and shoe size usually determines saddle setback.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

RS VR6 said:


> The pain could just be an adjustment period. If it persists after a few rides...then you might need to look at other methods to fix the issue. There are droppers that have a setback head. Femur length and shoe size usually determines saddle setback.


Any recommendations for setback dropper posts? So far, I've seen two: 9point8 and Specialized command post.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

stripes said:


> Any recommendations for setback dropper posts? So far, I've seen two: 9point8 and Specialized command post.


Those are the two I can think of also. I have a Command post and the three position settings on the post might take some time to get used to...but overall...its not a bad post.

9 Point 8 has a fancy new dropper with interchangeable heads. It can even go to a set forward position.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

dustyman said:


> I also tried raising the seat height. Has anybody experienced this or have any suggestions?


I have a XXL Tallboy 4 but it hasn't caused any knee pain. I would try raising the seat until you find how high too high is, then lower about 5mm and if that fixes it. You might also run into the issue of fixing the issue but not recovering from the pain quickly enough to realize it.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

do both bikes have the same crank arm length?


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

So what I learned to do a few years (and many bikes) ago was do take time to take measurements of all bikes, new, old, whatever. Just because you have the same saddle height, or same bars, or same stem.....*really means next to nothing* especially when going from a 2013 to current tallboy. Getting wrapped up in thinking similar components equals similar fit is a mistake lots of people make, including myself. 

There are a few good worksheets you can print off and document the measurements to determine where you might need to adjust. Having a bike that you are currently happy with means you have a great reference for how do adjust new bikes moving forward.


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## J-Bone (Aug 26, 2008)

I work in Rehab and sports performance. I look at it from a different angle. Any injury history on that side? Stiff ankle, low back pain/stiffness. 
Sometimes-looking at it from my field-Improving ankle jt mobility core strength are great places to look. Ultimately what we find is that increasing the length of the quad and quad tendon, decreasing IT band tension (ankle/core/posture/breathing) and increasing strength of the hamstrings and glut max should bering the long term relief you are looking for. Fiddling too much with bike fit may find pain in new places.


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## Swolie74 (11 mo ago)

What perfect timing.. I just started experiencing knee pain on rides longer than 5 hours. It’s crazy because there’s zero pain prior to that 5 hour mark. My first instinct is to start hammering/stretching the IT band. I do know my hamstrings are excessively tight but that’s a long work in progress


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## bfdnelson (4 mo ago)

Swolie74 said:


> What perfect timing.. I just started experiencing knee pain on rides longer than 5 hours. It’s crazy because there’s zero pain prior to that 5 hour mark. My first instinct is to start hammering/stretching the IT band. I do know my hamstrings are excessively tight but that’s a long work in progress


Have you changed anything recently on your setup?


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## Swolie74 (11 mo ago)

bfdnelson said:


> Have you changed anything recently on your setup?


Nope.. setup has been the exact same since February. In an attempt to solve the issue I dropped the seat post almost an inch and moved the seat forward but still same results. I have zero pain until about the 5 hour mark then a sharp pain comes.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Swolie74 said:


> What perfect timing.. I just started experiencing knee pain on rides longer than 5 hours. It’s crazy because there’s zero pain prior to that 5 hour mark. My first instinct is to start hammering/stretching the IT band. I do know my hamstrings are excessively tight but that’s a long work in progress


I would get pain after 100 miles in races over 100 miles. Pretty much like clockwork for 3 years at that 100 mile mark. So bad the first year it locked up my knee due to swelling. 2nd year I managed it better, taking longer rest stops, more drugs, etc., but it was obvious at that point I needed to get it fixed. 3rd year I did a preventative cortisone shot in it prior, it still got a little sore and hurting, but not nearly as bad as the prior two. The reason for this was a tear on my meniscus. I got surgery. If you are getting pain after 5 hours, something is likely wrong. See if you can work it out to go see an ortho doc while you are still suffering inflammation and the effects, they can usually tell the issue from the x-rays.


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## bfdnelson (4 mo ago)

Swolie74 said:


> Nope.. setup has been the exact same since February. In an attempt to solve the issue I dropped the seat post almost an inch and moved the seat forward but still same results. I have zero pain until about the 5 hour mark then a sharp pain comes.


Hmmm. Well, I'm not a doctor and I certainly hope you don't need surgery, but a bike fit may also resolve this knee issue for you. Here's a scenario to consider and you can draw your own conclusions. 

I've always had tight hamstrings and IT bands since XC running in high-schoool over 20 years ago. This year, I rode my MTB with the exact same setup from March through early-August with no issues. I was considering moving the seat forward & down and possibly getting a shorter stem for the handlebars because the cockpit felt too long and I experienced shoulder pain after long rides. But I didn't make any changes. 

In early-August, I did a sustained, steep climb (~2hr with an average grade of ~17%) and when I reached the top my left knee was slightly sore on the front-inside, but nothing awful. Later that night, it started to swell up and hurt when going up or down stairs. I took it easy for a few days and suspected that it was time for those cockpit adjustments (but still didn't do it). 

After 1.5 weeks of the pain and seeing little to no improvement I went to a sports therapist for an evaluation. The knee pain was being caused by overuse of my quad, resulting in the ligaments around my knee not tracking correctly. She also noted that my glute was being underutilized (identified by my squat form). 

So, I went and got a bike fit and he moved my seat as far back as it could go and raised it 2cm. He also put on a new stem and removed 2 spacers, resulting in a 6-7cm increase in length of the cockpit by pushing the bars forward and down. The fitter literally did the exact opposite of everything I thought I needed.

Within 1 week, the pain was gone and I was beginning to push normal efforts again. In fact, I was creating more power now that my glutes were more engaged, lessening the load on my quads. It took about 5-6 weeks for my muscles to adapt to the new position, but I feel that I'm riding stronger and faster now than before, and all pain free. 

The seat adjustment up and back corrected the knee issue. The bar adjustment forward and down addressed the shoulder and back issues.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Not a doctor but have a look at your IT bands. My knee pain came from that, and I’m working with a PT on fixing mine.


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