# 4800 lumen 3up XPH35



## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

*4800 lumen 3up XHP35*

I've have this Troutie Darkness Dominator that I built up in 2012 with a neutral white 3up XML board. The light output and pattern was pretty nice, but got eclipsed by my MT-G2 light (35mm Easy2Led build- Mtbr.com) so I've been keeping an eye out for a suitable emitter upgrade. Yeah, I'm a bit of a lumen whore. 

So enter the latest Cree XHP35 emitters mounted on a cutter TPAD copper 3up 32mm board wired for parallel operation. Its being driven at 3A with approx 13V by a TaskLED H6flex. According to the Cree spec sheet, this works out to something like 1600 lumen per emitter or 4800 total for the 3 of them (before losses of course). Definitely brighter than the old XMLs but will have to wait for a proper trail ride shake down later this week.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Nice upgrade!

Those Troutie housings sure were nicely made.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

I miss Troutie.

:cryin:


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

Vancbiker said:


> Nice upgrade!
> 
> Those Troutie housings sure were nicely made.


Indeed, a classic design... only concern I have is the heat sink fins are only on the top cover which is somewhat loosely coupled to the rest of the body.









I think it my be challenging for this housing to deal with the 40 watts of power consumption from this new configuration. I've got the H6flex thermal protection set @ 70°C so I imagine I'll be tripping that a fair bit if not moving along at a good speed.


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

Took it out for a paved ride this evening just to get a baseline comparison. Switching back and forth between it and the MT-G2 I could certainly see the XHP35 light was quite a bit more flood than the MT-G2 so I'm hoping this will be better for single track. The MT-G2 utilizing a reflector projects a lot further and has a tighter hotspot along with the typical halo and sharp cutoff of a flashlight... this seemed to work better for paved riding. Neither light tripped the 70c threshold tonight (about 10c ambient temp) so I may consider boosting the XHP35 to 3.6A drive (50 watts).


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

This is just a bada** build! Wanting to see some beam shots, gotta be a crazy light! 

And man that sucks those cases are no more. Seemed to run I to that alot. Look around for DIY cases to find most ppl dont make them anymore. And this is one of the cooler looking heads ive seen.


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> And man that sucks those cases are no more. Seemed to run I to that alot. Look around for DIY cases to find most ppl dont make them anymore. And this is one of the cooler looking heads ive seen.


Yeah Troutie wasn't ever selling them as DIY cases, but I sweet-talked him into selling me one. The price I paid doesn't make sense in terms of what you can get now for a fraction of the price, but at the time it made sense to me... if any of this hobby really makes sense. ;-)

At the moment I'd say your best bet in DIY cases are the Easy2LED ones. I used the 35mm one for the MT-G2 light and it works really well... not as well finished as a Troutie but lighter and probably a bit better heat sinking because it has fins around most of the diameter.

I'll see if I can arrange some beamshots, but no promises.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Something drew my to visit this forum this morning weird .
Hi Lighting Peeps 

Tell me more about this light configuration Which optics 
and never even heard of the XHP 35 

For the record I have quite a few of these cases with mounts which are for sale 
also Liberators and Minis 
are there new leds which will work with 10 mm optics 

I am getting tinker fever again


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## mrradlos (Sep 3, 2010)

troutie-mtb said:


> Something drew my to visit this forum this morning weird .
> Hi Lighting Peeps
> 
> .....
> ...


Hello troutie

It is very nice to see you back here.

I was just reading in the internet again about the new leds to build a new light myself. So here what I found out:

- no big step forward since the cree XM-L(2) as far as I can see
- XP-L normal 3 V versions and XHP35 12 V are the new stars 
- you get XP-L and XHP35 dedoomed versions (called HI Inensity), also neutral white versions, the viewing Angle is 115 ° (better, but not ideal)
- Osram Oslon SSL 80 are old, not so many lumens per watt, but super color view (CRI 95, 4000K) - viewing angle 80 ° !!!

My opinion:

If you use more then 1000 lumens, even 4000 lumens on the bike, you have to make sure, the light is thrown as far as possible forward. With two flood-lights you see even less in the distance, then with one.
To throw the light forward with leds of the XM-L size and viewing angle above 100° you need big optics (best aspheric lenses as in trouties spider eyes). With small leds with small optics you get much more usable light with less lumens.

I think a good combination is SSL 80 in cooler color for throw and about a quater of the lumens in warmer color and HI CRI for flood (XP-L or XM-L2). I prefer it if the light even shines a bit around the bike - no tunnel feeling.

Siam build a light, that looks very good, but is far above my skills (and as usual for him much to bright).


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

troutie-mtb said:


> Something drew my to visit this forum this morning weird .
> Hi Lighting Peeps
> 
> Tell me more about this light configuration Which optics
> and never even heard of the XHP 35


Mr. Troutie, so good to have you visit with us!

XHP35 is a 4 die LED with the footprint of an XPG but with up to 1833 lumen output. Cutter Electronics Your One Stop Led Shop:

One of the reasons for picking the XHP35 board is it was a direct replacement for a 3up XML board and was available with a neutral tint. Same footprint and same CUTE3 optics and when wired up in parallel can be powered with the same driver @ 12V and 3A.

Another replacement I considered was XHP50 Cutter Electronics, Supplier of lowest cost leds on the internet, which is a bigger footprint 4 die LED and up to 2546 lumen output, but it wasn't available in a neutral tint and might have been too much heat for the housing.

Like the XML the XHP35 is a somewhat floody LED, but that's fine as I specifically wanted something with more spread for single track and it was perfect on my Wednesday night trail ride. I found I could run my refreshed Darkness Dominator happily at 20W output in slow sections and then bump it up to 40W for the fast downhills. Never overheated even at 40W so I'm pretty impressed!


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

All very interesting Glad you are all still meddling I will get some new leds ordered for a play around this winter

here is the last light I made last xmas 
we entered a team in a race in in the north of Scotland and I knew I would not be the fastest in our team so I was determined to have the brightest light at the race 
four of the spider lenses and 4 xmls



Not the lightest on the helmet but wowser when you hit full beam on a downhill it becomes a tactical weapon .
and we did get second place too

Had a look at cutters wow so many new leds to choose from 
so anyone compared dedomed ones to domed ??

so this XHP35 triple does it come from cutters with the resistors in situ for the parallel config


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Troutie, am I seeing aspheric optics on that thing???? Interesting idea there, never even considered them for the purpose of bike lights. Nice light BTW, pretty slick idea with that thing. doesnt look like it could be that heavy for using 4 emitters.


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

troutie-mtb said:


> so this XHP35 triple does it come from cutters with the resistors in situ for the parallel config


You can for them configured with the resistors/jumpers for parallel, which is what I did. Something to watch out for, the two boards I received were built incorrectly and had the + - wiring backwards. Fortunately I didn't damage the LEDs by applying power in reverse, but I was not terribly impressed.

Next up will be some kind of upgrade might be my Spider Eyes..









I little harder because LEDs are glued in place and then I have to worry about focal lengths of different LEDs I'm guessing...

Congrats on 2nd place in the fatty race!


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Which tint and flux did you go for


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

tigris99 said:


> Troutie, am I seeing aspheric optics on that thing???? Interesting idea there, never even considered them for the purpose of bike lights. Nice light BTW, pretty slick idea with that thing. doesnt look like it could be that heavy for using 4 emitters.


Yes double spidereyes it is a beast on full


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

_"For the record I have quite a few of these cases with mounts which are for sale "_

Hey Chris, good to see you drop in.

Can you send me some pics/prices of the housings? I'm looking to upgrade my lights after a few years out too. Got the bar light sorted but looking for a body for the helmet light.

Cheers
Steve (steve_dees AT hotmail.com)


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## TomFL (Feb 6, 2004)

This stuff is way beyond my level of tinkering expertise but really cool to see. Out of curiosity, what does it cost to build something like these 4k lumen lights and how are they holding up?

Is the reason we don't see these things on the market because manufacturers would likely try to charge $1k+ for them?


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

troutie-mtb said:


> Which tint and flux did you go for


3C tint, E2 flux: Cutter Electronics, Supplier of lowest cost leds on the internet


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

TomFL said:


> This stuff is way beyond my level of tinkering expertise but really cool to see. Out of curiosity, what does it cost to build something like these 4k lumen lights and how are they holding up?
> 
> Is the reason we don't see these things on the market because manufacturers would likely try to charge $1k+ for them?


Well, like I mentioned earlier the price doesn't make much sense on a per lumen basis when you compare to what you can get in cheap Chinese lights these days.

I'd say the 4800 lumen light is in around the $300-$400 range when taking in account a good LiPo battery and balance charger. Actually a pretty good price when you compare it to something like a Lupine Betty which is now a 5000 lumen light and easily at 2-3 times the price.

The Chinese lights probably top out around 2800 lumens or so right now. Something like the NiteFighter BT70 is a good example. Part of the problem is they seem to be stuck in the world or 7.4V battery packs which severely limits the current available and in fact the BT70 has problems over taxing the battery pack they supply.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

It can be done cheaper but takes more work. Not sure what heads run these days from the custom guys but research and time pays. Without cost of head (I machined mine) I built a 3600lumen head for around $100. Change emitters to new style and would put it around 4500 lumens. Cost about extra $40 in emitters vs route I went. Im using 9 xp-g2, xp-l hi on the same pcbs yield about 800 more lumens.

With using 18650 cells and holders, a couple spare holders can be wired up to provide a balancer (18650 cells will self balance if all are hooked up in parallel), trick is finding a wall charger (their cheap just takes time to dig them up) for the assembled pack voltage. I have a balance charger from my rc days but I still use holders and let the cells self balance prior to assembly.

Its alot of work, more work in, the more money you save. And 18650 cells instead of lipos will save you a fair bit.


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

Tigris is right, it can certainly be done cheaper. My pricing was a rough ball park based on the particular housing I used (acquired years ago) and a quality LiPo battery system.

These days you could look at building the light head quite a bit cheaper with the Easy2LED M36 housing ($29+shipping), TaskLED B3flex driver ($35+shipping), Cutter XHP35 board and Cute3 optics ($16+$3+shipping) plus misc. cabling. The 4S battery could be up to the user but I would still recommend looking at LiPo batteries when you get into this class of light as 18650s tend to have problems supplying the current needed without voltage sag being a problem.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ya voltage sag tends to be an issue but there are finally cells out that can do it. There's a couple options but my favorite currently is NCR18650GA. Sanyo/panasonic cells that can handle 10A continuous, 3500mah. Still not quite a lipo battery but its leaps better than they used to be. If LIPOs weren't still so damn expensive id probably have a couple for my lights (thought for helmet id still use 18650, lighter weight).


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> Ya voltage sag tends to be an issue but there are finally cells out that can do it. There's a couple options but my favorite currently is NCR18650GA. Sanyo/panasonic cells that can handle 10A continuous, 3500mah. Still not quite a lipo battery but its leaps better than they used to be. If LIPOs weren't still so damn expensive id probably have a couple for my lights (thought for helmet id still use 18650, lighter weight).


You're right that things have changed from when I first moved to LiPo batteries years ago. Back then pretty much the best quality cells were NCR18650B and not much was available (at a reasonable price) in both high current and high capacity cells. Now we have inexpensive 18650s that can supply 10A-20A so voltage sag should be reduced, but you still have to deal with connecting at least 4 together (and probably 8) to make a viable battery pack for a light like this. It can be a bit complicated to find holders that will work well or solder them all together and wire them up for balance charging.

Here are the LiPo batteries I've been using: Turnigy 5000mAh 4S 25C Lipo Pack

Not really that expensive when you consider you have a 4S pack all ready to use and easily charged with a RC type balance charger. I place pack into a water bottle style case with some foam padding and its good to go. I've changed to different cabling than the Magicshine ones shown in these pictures, but otherwise this is the system I've been using for 3+ years and it has been very reliable.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

That's actually really not a bad price at all. I forgot about that company, they were just coming into the picture in my rc days. Their prices were great back then too. Using ncr18650ga it isn't so cheap. Good for my 2 cell for helmets ($9 a cell) but if I had to build a big pack I wouldn't pay the price. So my bar light pack 3s2p uses ncr18650g removed from a couple xiaomi yi power banks I bought for the purpose. Ended up being way more battery than I need as I get over 2000 lumens only pulls 1.6A.

Water bottle holder is nice idea, seen those alot reading around here.

Seeing that there are heads still floating around, the light geek in me wants to order up housings just for fun. Even though I can make my own (though not as nice).


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## bikerjay (Sep 16, 2007)

On the 10mm front here is a new tiny led x-qe which is now offered with or with out dome. I have not tried one yet. None seem to be available with 10mm PCB and there so small they would not fit a Xpe board. At 1.6mm x 1.6mm they are small.



troutie-mtb said:


> Something drew my to visit this forum this morning weird .
> Hi Lighting Peeps
> 
> Tell me more about this light configuration Which optics
> ...


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

Hi folks...
This XHP35 board from cutters, each led needs 12v? Wire it up in series and as normal with a h6flex?

Just today I had a look in my led pots, I didnt even know what I've got in there, I had to look at my old orders from cutters to work out what's what.


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

Goldigger said:


> Hi folks...
> This XHP35 board from cutters, each led needs 12v? Wire it up in series and as normal with a h6flex?
> 
> Just today I had a look in my led pots, I didnt even know what I've got in there, I had to look at my old orders from cutters to work out what's what.


Each LED is 12V with a maximum of 1050mA drive current. For my configuration I went with the board wired in parallel so that I could run it off 12V and drive it at 3A with the H6flex powered by my 4S LiPo packs.

Series wouldn't work in this application as then the LED board would need 36V which means using a different driver such as the Hbflex to boost the voltage up from 14.8V.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Why not run in 6v 3A??? Just curious.


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> Why not run in 6v 3A??? Just curious.


Not sure I understand your question, but the XHP35 is a 12V only LED (basically 4 dies in series) so you need at least that voltage to drive it.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Oh ya my bad, had them confused with xhp50 lol. Those are 6 or 12v, thought it was other way around.


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

The mention of the resistors on the board confused me.. So I don't need them if its wired in parallel? 

Any beamshots of these with a ledil cute 3 vs the XML2s?

Cheers


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

The resistors are actually 0 resistance. Nothing more than "jumper leads" to determine config of the PCB. His setup is parallel (you need 4 "jumpers", but 0 resistance rating), in series you would only see 2 resistors, emitters and jumpers would be configured differently than in his pictures.


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

Would it be possible to run 2 of these together? 
I'm trying to work out which way to go with my new bar light and am in a position where I can design the housing around the LED's and driver (HBFlex)


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

deesta said:


> Would it be possible to run 2 of these together?
> I'm trying to work out which way to go with my new bar light and am in a position where I can design the housing around the LED's and driver (HBFlex)


You could run two parallel boards wired in parallel (6P LED configuration) with a H6flex driving 12V @ 6A. If you wanted to use an HBflex then you could connect the boards in series giving you a 2S3P LED configuration and you'd be driving 24V @ 3A.


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

kwarwick said:


> If you wanted to use an HBflex then you could connect the boards in series giving you a 2S3P LED configuration and you'd be driving 24V @ 3A.


Thanks, so that would run off my 15v battery ok with a HB. Did you board come in parallel config? Sorry, I'm not the best at the electronics side of things (still).
To get 2s3p I'd need 2 x parallel boards then have driver +ve in on one, LED -ve (on one) to +ve (on other) connected, driver -ve out?


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

deesta said:


> Thanks, so that would run off my 15v battery ok with a HB. Did you board come in parallel config? Sorry, I'm not the best at the electronics side of things (still).
> To get 2s3p I'd need 2 x parallel boards then have driver +ve in on one, LED -ve (on one) to +ve (on other) connected, driver -ve out?


Yes you should be fine running 2s3p off 15v battery... that's well within the specs for the HBflex, just make sure you have everything well heat-sinked as the driver and the LEDs will be dissipating a fair amount of power (80W). I would definitely want to make sure you set a temperature threshold on the HBflex... something like 70c would be a good starting point.

Wiring of the two XHP35 3up boards would look something like this:

LED board 1..........LED board 2 
+.............- ____ + ............ -
|.......................................|
|.......................................|
|.......................................|
|_______+ HBFlex - ________|

Hope this helps!

Karl

(remind me never again to try doing ASCII art here! had to add the .... in place of spaces to otherwise the forum software removes the spaces)


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

Great, thanks Karl. Yeah, the housing will have plenty of heatsinking ;-)

Just need to decide on what to do with the helmet light now...


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

deesta said:


> Great, thanks Karl. Yeah, the housing will have plenty of heatsinking ;-)
> 
> Just need to decide on what to do with the helmet light now...


I'll be very interested to see the housing you have that will handle that much heat.

I'm also trying to figure out what to do for a helmet light upgrade to go with the refreshed bar light... thinking dual or triple xpl-hi LEDs at the moment.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Xp-l hi ARE AWESOME. Finally got to trail ride after dark with a chinese light I gutted and refitted with custom driver (had to make a housing to hold it properly inside the Chinese housing) and dual xp-l hi. I rode the entire time at 2A output level which works great for me in tight single track. When I got out in the open and stopped for a drink, I saw glare of animal eyes a ways away (150yrds roughly), hit the 3.5A mode and could make out the deer and watch it before turning light back down and continuing on my ride.

Duals is great, I was thinking I'd need a triple but dual @2.5 is plenty. BUT THATS FOR MY TIGHT AND TWISTY trails. Never have line of site more than 150ft due to trees and such. If you have more open trails, a triple will be amazing.


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> Xp-l hi ARE AWESOME. Finally got to trail ride after dark with a chinese light I gutted and refitted with custom driver (had to make a housing to hold it properly inside the Chinese housing) and dual xp-l hi. I rode the entire time at 2A output level which works great for me in tight single track. When I got out in the open and stopped for a drink, I saw glare of animal eyes a ways away (150yrds roughly), hit the 3.5A mode and could make out the deer and watch it before turning light back down and continuing on my ride.
> 
> Duals is great, I was thinking I'd need a triple but dual @2.5 is plenty. BUT THATS FOR MY TIGHT AND TWISTY trails. Never have line of site more than 150ft due to trees and such. If you have more open trails, a triple will be amazing.


Yes, your comments about how awesome the xp-l hi are in another thread is what got me thinking about this again.

I was considering upgrading a Yinding with 2 of them , but don't really like the UI of that light.

I have a couple Noctigon 5000K 3up xp-l hi boards and a B3flex just itching to be made into a helmet light, but I'm lacking a suitable housing. Easy2LED 20mm housing would be ideal, except that it is just a little bit too small to accommodate the B3flex. Maxflex would fit, but could only drive them with 1200-1300mA whereas the B3flex could go full 3000ma if I wanted.

Oh the first world problems... ;-)


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Well as triples, not a good helmet light. The bar light I built is those triples.but with xpg2 on same optics. And an edc flashlight that uses xp-l hi triple in the narrowest version optic. Beam pattern is identical but big wide spot and lacking throw of course.

10deg standard single optics on them is great, that's my helmet set up.

If you want better you for finding, get the KD driver for it, UI is better. Sense resistor mod up to 2.5A output and you've got an easy and sweet helmet yinding.


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

I've just had a reply to an email from Mark @ Cutters.

He's just finished the design for a 7up TPAD copper XPH35. I now know what I'll be using for my bar light :thumbsup:

Will go for either a double or triple XPL Hi for the helmet, with Regina's.

Should be a pretty bright combo.


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

deesta said:


> I've just had a reply to an email from Mark @ Cutters.
> 
> He's just finished the design for a 7up TPAD copper XPH35. I now know what I'll be using for my bar light :thumbsup:


Interesting... I assume they will allow for parallel configuration with the TPAD version of this board? They already had a 7up board for the XHP35s, problem being it was series configuration which would mean 7 x 12V = 84V+ needed to drive it!

Anyway a 7up XHP35 light would be insane... that's 91 watts for the LEDs, so probably around 100 watts of power consumption with a reasonably efficient driver. Better have a serious cooling solution for that light!


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

He didn't say in the email but you'd think it would be possible to do parallel combinations...84v is a rather large amount.

Maybe 2 drivers could be a good option if it's possible? One turns on the bottom 3 for slow stuff, the other adds in the top 4 for full beam? 
I'm just thinking out load here. It would need a larger housing although the heat from the driver would be less as it's only running at 1a (or maybe 1.25a :madmax: )
I've got an idea in my head for the housing so will see what Mark comes back with


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

deesta said:


> He didn't say in the email but you'd think it would be possible to do parallel combinations...84v is a rather large amount.
> 
> Maybe 2 drivers could be a good option if it's possible? One turns on the bottom 3 for slow stuff, the other adds in the top 4 for full beam?
> I'm just thinking out load here. It would need a larger housing although the heat from the driver would be less as it's only running at 1a (or maybe 1.25a :madmax: )
> I've got an idea in my head for the housing so will see what Mark comes back with


I'd say parallel is pretty much the only practical way to go for those LEDs. Even if you did two strings in series its its still a lot of boost needed from the typical 4S battery voltage. In parallel you'd be looking at 12V @ ~7A which is even a challenge, but the H6flex can do 6.6A so you'd be pretty close and I seriously doubt you'd miss the .4A or so at those brightness levels!


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

I think I'm getting my series and parallels mixed up....I did say I wasn't good at the electronics :nonod:

Let me see if I can get it right:

For parallel all 7 LED's +ve's would go to the driver +ve, all 7 -ve's to the driver -ve
For series one LED +ve to driver +ve, then the LED's linked +ve to -ve, then the last LED -ve to driver -ve.

A H6Flex @ 6.6a would give each LED ( 6.6a/7) = 0.94a

So with an input voltage of 15v (4s2p) battery the H6Flex would have a greater input than output voltage so would be OK? 

I could then use my HBFlex for the helmet light...

Damn, I struggled when I was doing quite a few lights, I'm lost now.... :cryin:


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

deesta said:


> I think I'm getting my series and parallels mixed up....I did say I wasn't good at the electronics :nonod:
> 
> Let me see if I can get it right:
> 
> ...


Yeap, you've got your series and parallel correct and the calculations look right too.

H6flex being a buck converter requires a higher battery voltage than the LED voltage, so 4S Li-ion having a maximum of 16.8V and nominal 14.4V works but perhaps is not ideal. I say this because the XHP-35 LEDs are ~12V but from the spec sheet this voltage increases as the current goes up, so it might be around 13.3 or so at 1A. The not ideal part comes from Taskled saying the input should be 1.5V above the output to stay in regulation, so in theory 13.3+1.5V=14.9V which means the driver will start to lose regulation when battery voltage drops below 14.9V and then LED power will begin to drop. Will you notice this? So far I've run my 4S pack down to 25% and didn't notice any decrease in brightness, but I will have to do more tests to see if this is really an issue.


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

kwarwick said:


> I say this because the XHP-35 LEDs are ~12V but from the spec sheet this voltage increases as the current goes up, so it might be around 13.3 or so at 1A.


Actually, just correcting my previous calculation here... I don't where I got 13.3V from... looking at Cree's data sheet looks like Vf only goes up to around 12.4V at 1050mA so with 1.5V of head room battery voltage only needs to stay 13.9V or above for H6flex to stay in regulation which is a much better scenario.

When I have a chance I'll do some testing with a bench power supply to find out exactly where the driver starts to drop out regulation.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

I'm tempted to put together an easy2led 35mm housing build w/ the 3up cutter XHP35 and Ledil C10428_CUTE-3-SS.

What would be the optimal driver and Vin (battery voltage source)?


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

Cheers! said:


> I'm tempted to put together an easy2led 35mm housing build w/ the 3up cutter XHP35 and Ledil C10428_CUTE-3-SS.
> 
> What would be the optimal driver and Vin (battery voltage source)?


TaskLED b3Flex driver and Vin 14v or above. I'm using 4S 5000mAh LiPo battery pack.


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

> When I have a chance I'll do some testing with a bench power supply to find out exactly where the driver starts to drop out regulation.


That would be great. One problem I see is that the battery I'm thinking of using (15v5.2aH) has a maximum discharge current of 3a. I guess that means I wouldn't be able to run the driver at 6.6a?


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

deesta said:


> That would be great. One problem I see is that the battery I'm thinking of using (15v5.2aH) has a maximum discharge current of 3a. I guess that means I wouldn't be able to run the driver at 6.6a?


You wouldn't be able to run the driver at 6.6A if is truly the maximum discharge current for your battery pack. Another reason to look at using LiPo batteries... they can supply those kind of currents without even breaking a sweat.

My tests using the bench power supply confirmed essentially what I was expecting. The driver started to go out of regulation at a supply voltage of 14-14.2V depending on temperature. When cold the light wanted 14.2V but as it got up up to full operating temperature only required 14V. For a 4S LiPo pack this is getting toward the 3/4 discharged range so dropping out of regulation at this point isn't really a concern for me, and even when it did, it was a gradual drop from around 40W power to 35W or so... not even noticeable as far a brightness is concerned.


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

So LiPo would enable me to run the driver at 6.6a? I've never needed to look past li-ion in the past.
What sort of aH would I need to look for? And would a LiPo be better for my helmet light where I was planning to run a B3Flex @ 3a driving a triple XPL-hi? Ideally I'd want to mount it on the back of my helmet as I hate cables from helmet to backpack. Current battery is a 2cell 7.5v2.6aH li-ion..


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

deesta said:


> So LiPo would enable me to run the driver at 6.6a? I've never needed to look past li-ion in the past.
> What sort of aH would I need to look for? And would a LiPo be better for my helmet light where I was planning to run a B3Flex @ 3a driving a triple XPL-hi? Ideally I'd want to mount it on the back of my helmet as I hate cables from helmet to backpack. Current battery is a 2cell 7.5v2.6aH li-ion..


You certainly don't have to go LiPo, but I've found them less hassle than building up a high current/capacity pack out of 18650 cells. If the pack you've currently considering is 15v5.2aH then it sounds like a 4S2P (8 cell) 18650 pack? It should be able to supply more than 3A unless it is being limited by a built in protection board, but really for the kind of light you're talking about building LiPo is probably the better solution.

Take a look at post #23 and you'll see what I use... way more current capacity than you'll ever need and reasonable run time. There are higher mAh batteries @ hobbyking for more $.

For a helmet mount light where you want to have the pack on the helmet too, I'd stick with a 2x18650 configuration and for a 3A draw you'll want some of the newest high capacity 18650s like NCR18650GA or LG MJ1 both of which are 10A, 3500mAh cells and even then expect to swap batteries after an hour or so if you're running on max mostly.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

If your going to run a triple @3A (guessing you mean in parallel, 1A/emitter) it would be smarter to run the emitters in series and go a 3s pack. Instead of trying to pull 3A and only getting 1-1.5 hrs run time, a 3s pack you can run emitters at same current (1A each) and get 3+ hrs run time instead.

Hopefully your not trying to run a small triple though, the throw on the 20mm sized optics is badly lacking. Not a good helmet light imo. I have an edc flashlight set up that way, be a good beam for bars, not helmet for me.


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> If your going to run a triple @3A (guessing you mean in parallel, 1A/emitter) it would be smarter to run the emitters in series and go a 3s pack. Instead of trying to pull 3A and only getting 1-1.5 hrs run time, a 3s pack you can run emitters at same current (1A each) and get 3+ hrs run time instead.
> 
> Hopefully your not trying to run a small triple though, the throw on the 20mm sized optics is badly lacking. Not a good helmet light imo. I have an edc flashlight set up that way, be a good beam for bars, not helmet for me.


Sounds like he was going for triple XP-L hi, so 3A per emitter when wired in series.

So actually that brings up a good point - he'd need to run 4x18650 battery pack for that light (assuming driven by a B3flex). Far too heavy a pack for helmet mounting in my book.


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

Was going to run a HBFlex on the helmet light. The idea being I can run 3 in series @ 9(ish)vF with a 7.5v 2cell battery.
My rides are only a couple of hours and wouldn't need full power for no more than 25% of that.


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

deesta said:


> Was going to run a HBFlex on the helmet light. The idea being I can run 3 in series @ 9(ish)vF with a 7.5v 2cell battery.
> My rides are only a couple of hours and wouldn't need full power for no more than 25% of that.


That'll work, but will be pretty heavy load on a 2 cell battery so check out the high drain cells I mentioned... you might even need to look at cells that can do 20A to minimize the battery sag. LG HE2 2500mAh are well known ones but you are trading off run time for the high current capacity.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I run 12.6v (3s) pack for series triple no problem. I forget the voltage requirements of b3flex, but I don't sweat "emitters +1" for the drivers I use. Driver warns me when I hit 3v per cell (9v in this case) but I don't push high amps. 1.25A/emitter as its for bar light.

I caught the xp-l hi part, just wasnt sure what size triple/optic he was after. Guessing he's going the bigger as 20mm triple and matching optic sucks for throw. I converted a couple of my small dual head Chinese lights to xp-l hi, at 2.5-3A they are really nice on the helmet with 10 deg optics.


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

tigris99 said:


> Hopefully your not trying to run a small triple though, the throw on the 20mm sized optics is badly lacking.


No, 3 x 16mm boards with Regina optics was the plan.


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

Just had a reply off Smudge, who build my batteries, saying the 3a protective circuit can discharge @ 2c so my 5.2 will do 10.4a or I can change the circuit for an 8a with should give plenty of draw.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

OK have done the dirty deed and ordered some of these new fangled led things
have ordered 
a triple of each. XHP 35-50-70 
and singles of each also 

I have the triple Cutes but what is the optic of choice for singles and the xhp 70 triple

Hopefully they will get here in time to have a mess about over the xmas hols


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

My guess is that, when you turn on whatever you build, you'll have 3 kings turn up offering you gifts and maybe some shepherds and angels too


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

troutie-mtb said:


> I have the triple Cutes but what is the optic of choice for singles and the xhp 70 triple


There are XHP70 triple boards!?!


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

kwarwick said:


> There are XHP70 triple boards!?!


Ha Ha my bad

only ordered triples in 35 and 50 
and a single in the 70


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

troutie-mtb said:


> Ha Ha my bad
> 
> only ordered triples in 35 and 50
> and a single in the 70


No worries, I'll be curious to see what you do with the triple 50 as that was the next possible upgrade I was considering. What kept me from going that way initially was I figured to get the most out of 50s I'd have to switch over to wiring the 50s in series and switch from H6flex to HBflex to boost the voltage from 4S lipo pack to the 18v or so needed. Also the 24 AWG cables I'm using probably aren't up to the higher current so battery cabling would need an upgrade too. Or maybe move to 5S lipo pack (hard to find) and stick with H6flex?


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## WeLight (Aug 12, 2007)

bikerjay said:


> On the 10mm front here is a new tiny led x-qe which is now offered with or with out dome. I have not tried one yet. None seem to be available with 10mm PCB and there so small they would not fit a Xpe board. At 1.6mm x 1.6mm they are small.


u mean like this


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

Leds have arrived and had a play around with the 35 and 50 triples first impressions are a little underwhelmed the optics cant deliver the lumens down range But we knew that .
beautiful lights to ride with enormous amounts of flood with no hot spot and good color brings out the undergrowth colors nicely

Deesta I think you are goint to need to redesign your 7 up as the centre led will cook 
these give off lots of heat .

Small video uploaded to youtube 
first light is XHP 35 second is XHP 50 followed by both no full and last my helmet light Spidereyes with 2 MTG2 leds slightly defocused


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

troutie-mtb said:


> Deesta I think you are goint to need to redesign your 7 up as the centre led will cook
> these give off lots of heat .


Ah, that's disappointing to hear Chris. Output looks good and nice colour though..


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

troutie-mtb said:


> Leds have arrived and had a play around with the 35 and 50 triples first impressions are a little underwhelmed the optics cant deliver the lumens down range But we knew that .
> beautiful lights to ride with enormous amounts of flood with no hot spot and good color brings out the undergrowth colors nicely


Those CUTE-3 optics are rather floody for sure. I'm assuming you're using the narrowest spot version? I've heard some folks have sanded and polished off the dimpled surface to improved the throw a bit. Just curious, do you think the XHP35 is more floody than XML? Since I retrofitted my XML light I didn't have the old and new to compare back to back but it seemed like the 35 is more perhaps because of the textured dome on those emitters.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

kwarwick said:


> Those CUTE-3 optics are rather floody for sure. I'm assuming you're using the narrowest spot version? I've heard some folks have sanded and polished off the dimpled surface to improved the throw a bit. Just curious, do you think the XHP35 is more floody than XML? Since I retrofitted my XML light I didn't have the old and new to compare back to back but it seemed like the 35 is more perhaps because of the textured dome on those emitters.


Not sure about Xhp v Xml. but for throw in those optics nothing has beaten the Xre of old for supberb beam 
yes have tried grinding and polishing the optic and not much difference if I recall correctly

Awsome lumen output from these leds. but i think large reflectors are needed for throw 
find the right optic or reflector and single led lights will be great


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Can always just go smaller emitter, xp-l hi for instance is alot easier to get good through out of. Its not just the optics, emitters can effect it alot. HI emitters will narrow up beam pattern and increase throw alot on the same optic.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

kwarwick said:


> Those CUTE-3 optics are rather floody for sure. I'm assuming you're using the narrowest spot version? I've heard some folks have sanded and polished off the dimpled surface to improved the throw a bit.


I did that to my 6 up XPG light. It makes a small improvement, but still rather floody. Enough light there and coupled with a nice tight helmet light and it's pretty decent. I'd prefer it less floody and if I were to keep using it, I'd convert it to one of the newer un-domed emitters.


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## stu44 (Mar 28, 2007)

troutie-mtb said:


> Ha Ha my bad
> 
> only ordered triples in 35 and 50
> and a single in the 70


Mr Trout, did you get the single 70 in 6V or 12V, verrrry interested to see what you get up to w it.


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

stu44 said:


> Mr Trout, did you get the single 70 in 6V or 12V, verrrry interested to see what you get up to w it.


I got the 6 volt but now wish it had been 12 v so could have driven it at full with a B3Flex 
No idea what I am going to do with it 
hoping I have a H6flex in an old light some
where


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## deesta (Sep 7, 2008)

Troutie, do you want me to add a 12v one to my order? Will be ordering some bits very soon


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

deesta said:


> Troutie, do you want me to add a 12v one to my order? Will be ordering some bits very soon


Might take you up on that offer Steve thanks


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## troutie-mtb (Sep 20, 2007)

what are your thoughts on running 2 xhp35 leds in paralel using an LFlex and three cell 12 volt battery pack


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

troutie-mtb said:


> what are your thoughts on running 2 xhp35 leds in paralel using an LFlex and three cell 12 volt battery pack


I guess it could work, but you'd have zero head room to stay in regulation so it would start dimming almost immediately as the battery voltage decreased.

I think a b3flex with a 4 cell battery would be much better.


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## 100mphplus (Jan 20, 2016)

Sorry to jump on this thread but I'm trying to contact Troutie or find someone who can repair my Darkness Dominator?
Blue light illuminates when you plug in the battery, (built to suit a lumicycle battery), but it doesn't turn on, guessing something has frazzled inside??

Love the light and gutted it's stopped working, so any assistance greatly appreciated as I'm totally confused when it comes to electrics!!
Ta.
Steve


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## kwarwick (Jun 12, 2004)

100mphplus said:


> Sorry to jump on this thread but I'm trying to contact Troutie or find someone who can repair my Darkness Dominator?
> Blue light illuminates when you plug in the battery, (built to suit a lumicycle battery), but it doesn't turn on, guessing something has frazzled inside??
> 
> Love the light and gutted it's stopped working, so any assistance greatly appreciated as I'm totally confused when it comes to electrics!!
> ...


Hopefully Troutie is still following this thread and will respond. You might want to also send him a private message.

If you have no luck getting in touch with him, I'd be happy to look at it for you since I'm very familiar with this light.


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