# 36.6



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

So bike number six will be a 36er I know I know make something different already, bike 7 will probably be a 29+ but for now three foot wheels. This one will be 7005 tubing same geo as 5 the only real change is the tubing diameter 1-3/4" DT and 1-3/8" TT I may change the CS
Diameter but dont have the bending dies for 7/8". I mght try some real
chain stays grafted to 3/4" to get the required length. No pics yet but will post some soon!!!

Merry Christmas....O...wait may not be allowed to say that so Happy Holiday's everyone!!


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

what if they had a war on Christmas and nobody came?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Ok did a little work on 36.6!


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Looking good Todwil!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

unterhausen said:


> what if they had a war on Christmas and nobody came?


 Peace on Earth!!



mbeardsl said:


> Looking good Todwil!


 Thanx Matt, are you goig to NAHBS this year I think its in your back yard.

Santy brought a new drill press and I had to try the tubing notcher from
HF it actually works good...after you center the clamp!


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

I will be there unless my plans change. Only a 3hr drive from here.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Heres a couple more pics from todays efforts I need to get some more tubing and a bending die to finish Im going up to 7/8" for the chain stays


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Nice miters, looking good!


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Look pretty perfect!
Care to share some geometry? You have a ton of experience riding these it seems and would love to hear what you've learned through your builds on what works and doesn't!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Thanx

the geo is 
71.5/73 HT/ST (I have to use a setback post to get to 73*)
770mm FC
24 5/8" TT
18" ST
520mm CS
510mm AC

The biggest hurdle is the wheels you have to get around, over and thru them bad boys. So to get the shortest chain stays you have to interrupt the seat tube either by
bending it or choking up on the DT I like the looks of the radius tubes. The DT is next 
some can get the front tire to clear with a straight tube when I tried it was to close.
So to the radius bender with that tube also. With this tire size handlebar height is starting to get high so I use the shortest headtube possible with inset bearings.


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Is this one for you? FC always looks whacky on these. That tire is waaaay out there.

What is the fork offset and resulting trail?


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

todwil said:


> Thanx
> 
> the geo is
> 71.5/73 HT/ST (I have to use a setback post to get to 73*)
> ...


Thanks for that!
How tall are you? Is that the 'minimum' frame size that can handle the wheels in your experience?
What trail figure are you getting shooting for? What fork offset are you using?
I'm using bikecad and it seems like I'm not getting the same overlap issues on the front end but definitely am on the back end with the seat tube even with bending it a bunch. 
What is the diameter and width of the tire you're using? 
Sorry for all the questions or if I missed the answers in a previous post!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

mbeardsl said:


> Is this one for you? FC always looks whacky on these. That tire is waaaay out there.
> 
> What is the fork offset and resulting trail?


 Yea Matt this frame is going to replace my current aluminum bike, the rake I'm running is 80mm but Ive never figured out trail and I haven't experimented with
Rake Walt recommended this rake when he built me a fork and it works very good


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Meriwether said:


> Thanks for that!
> How tall are you? Is that the 'minimum' frame size that can handle the wheels in your experience?
> What trail figure are you getting shooting for? What fork offset are you using?
> I'm using bikecad and it seems like I'm not getting the same overlap issues on the front end but definitely am on the back end with the seat tube even with bending it a bunch.
> ...


 Ah....forgot about standover very good question the TT rises fast to clear the front tire so the boys get crowded this is something you'll have
to compromise on. I made a small (15.5") if you can call it that.















Also Walt's blog has some great info on 3 foot wheeled bikes! The wheel diameter with tire is not quite 36" the widest part is 17 1/2"
from center this is with the Vee rubber tire I would definitely get the 
rear wheel tire combo before you start


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

todwil said:


> Heres a couple more pics from todays efforts I need to get some more tubing and a bending die to finish Im going up to 7/8" for the chain stays


Todd,

Theoretically, assuming your walls are about 1/16'' (1.6mm), the 7/8'' tube has 141.8% more Section modulous (strength) compared to the 3/4" tube !










What was the size of the chainstays you were using on your other steel 36ers ?

Keep up the good work !



Meriwether said:


> Thanks for that!
> How tall are you? Is that the 'minimum' frame size that can handle the wheels in your experience?
> What trail figure are you getting shooting for? What fork offset are you using?
> I'm using bikecad and it seems like I'm not getting the same overlap issues on the front end but definitely am on the back end with the seat tube even with bending it a bunch.
> ...


I think this blog post from Walt does a good job answering a lot of questions :

Waltworks Bicycles: Everything you've ever wanted to know about 36ers but were afraid to ask


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Thanx for info yea the tubes are both .065. I use 3/4 x .035 on the steal bikes!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Meriwether said:


> Thanks for that!
> How tall are you? Is that the 'minimum' frame size that can handle the wheels in your experience?
> What trail figure are you getting shooting for? What fork offset are you using?
> I'm using bikecad and it seems like I'm not getting the same overlap issues on the front end but definitely am on the back end with the seat tube even with bending it a bunch.
> ...


Here's a couple more pics one is a card board rendering a guy sent me and the other two are my very first bike/36er.


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

Nice miters, looks like that cheap HF tubing notcher works well on aluminium.
Have you tried the tubing notcher on thin wall steel tubing yet?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

J_K said:


> Nice miters, looks like that cheap HF tubing notcher works well on aluminium.
> Have you tried the tubing notcher on thin wall steel tubing yet?


 Not yet but I'll try it tonite and see.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Also I ordered one those monster nozzles kits for my tig torch to get the tungsten out further but its acting like the sheilding gas isnt covering right anyone else messed with one of these?


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## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

Do you mean like a CK large diameter gas lens?
Gas Saver front end accessory kits from CK Worldwide Quality TIG Welding Torches & Accessories
I've tried it and not loved it so much.
I'm now using a #12 cup and large diameter gas lens and stubby backcap, I am getting used to it.
andy walker


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

J_K said:


> Nice miters, looks like that cheap HF tubing notcher works well on aluminium.
> Have you tried the tubing notcher on thin wall steel tubing yet?


 It went thru like butter but Im sure that holesaws die faster with steel.
heres a couple pics























afwalker said:


> Do you mean like a CK large diameter gas lens?
> Gas Saver front end accessory kits from CK Worldwide Quality TIG Welding Torches & Accessories
> I've tried it and not loved it so much.
> I'm now using a #12 cup and large diameter gas lens and stubby backcap, I am getting used to it.
> andy walker


 Andy its similar, Im getting better with it heres what it looks like.









Also I found some 7/8" tubing at a hardware store to see if it can be bent in a 1" die and it didn't do to bad.


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## J_K (Jan 18, 2010)

todwil said:


> It went thru like butter but Im sure that holesaws die faster with steel.
> heres a couple pics


Looks good.
I'm not sure if I'll ever get one of those, but it's good to know it works.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Well I ordered a new 7/8" die for my JD2 bender and some dropouts from Kavik bikes I was originally going to use the drops from my current frame but change my mind.
Maybe some updated pics early next week.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Well the brown truck drop off a new die for 7/8" and I got the Kavik drops in the mail so it back to work on the 36er!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Here some pics from todays efforts.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Ok I been slackin lately but did some real important 3foot wheel work 
today!!!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*36.6.2*

Ok I change my mind on the CS's the S bend stays just didn't look good to me so a new set where made tacked it together and put the wheel in and a crank set in to make sure it all fit....


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

A little further today!!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

One more nothing close to what some of you folks can do!!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*31.24lbs*

Well its put together will take out tomorrow for maiden ride!!It hangs from the scale 31.24lbs


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Wow, weight weenie circus bike!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

G-reg said:


> Wow, weight weenie circus bike!


 Just trying to help.......Clowns are people too!! Took it for a ride today sure missed the sus fork but it rides good..


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## eng (Apr 9, 2014)

Well, for once, I like it.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hmmm...

You've gotten very good at a lot of things in a very short time!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Thanx*



eng said:


> Well, for once, I like it.





TrailMaker said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> You've gotten very good at a lot of things in a very short time!


 Thanx sometimes Im a little reluctent to post pics of my welding ability because there 30 footers!!:eekster::eekster:


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Actually...

For as little aluminum welding as I know you to have done - what I've seen here - those are very nice welds. Not saying they are worthy of The Professor or anything, but they are as good as some of the production stuff I've seen. Better than I can do!


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Question on the Chainstay cut-out and capping - tire clearance.

Now that you have a full bike now rideable, is there much lateral flex? I know that when a wheel is fitted, this stiffens the whole structure, what I am interested in is how bendy is the whole fitted up structure as built up and completed as a bike. Your 36" wheel will expose design flaws more readily than a short chainstay BMX bike. Just wondering how yours has come out.

Eric


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Yea for tire clearance adding an 1/8" doesn't seem like a lot but it is when trying to get tire, cranks and chainring to fit. The lateral flex is less than the steel frames and the last aluminum one That I built in Oct.


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Hey thanks.

I have noted in general, how various recent builds are trending in this cramped area and how they are performing. I am not doubting any method, just looking at what works, and you have a few examples to compare which is why I asked.

Enjoy your ride, that's why we do this hobby.

Thanks again,

Eric


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

Nicely done! I dig those chainstays! Has me wondering about doing that with steel for fat tires. Seems easier than a yoke and cheaper.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

Of course, these clown stays are quite nice. Regarding this in general. I've had no problem getting clearance on my Fatties without any games at all. No dimples, no squashing, nothin. I suppose if you are trying for short stays, you might need to play these games. I have not built a short stay bike as of yet, so I can't say from ride experience, but my gut says it is all a bunch of hype & hooey. I've laid out short stay fatbikes bikes, and still did not have to do any of this squashing junk to get room. i'd like to build a short stay fattie, just to see if it makes any difference.

I'm betting not that much.


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## Testmule (Jul 27, 2013)

TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> Of course, these clown stays are quite nice. Regarding this in general. I've had no problem getting clearance on my Fatties without any games at all. No dimples, no squashing, nothin. I suppose if you are trying for short stays, you might need to play these games. I have not built a short stay bike as of yet, so I can't say from ride experience, but my gut says it is all a bunch of hype & hooey. I've laid out short stay fatbikes bikes, and still did not have to do any of this squashing junk to get room. i'd like to build a short stay fattie, just to see if it makes any difference.
> 
> I'm betting not that much.


Tried short stays on the first fat frame I did for myself last year - I think it's around 440mm. Was terrible on climbs in warm weather - kept pulling the front wheel without concentrating on getting my weight on the front end.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Meriwether said:


> Nicely done! I dig those chainstays! Has me wondering about doing that with steel for fat tires. Seems easier than a yoke and cheaper.


 Thanx I would like to take credit for the idea but I saw it done on a fat frame and it looked clean so when I couldn't get all to fit I did a little R&D (review and duplicate) from Kavik facebook pics! He has some fat frames he was making that he shows a real clear pic of. It is definitely easier than smashing and flattening.


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

I observed in my early years in the Bike trade, that when presented with frames requiring rear end repairs that round stays were the strongest (required the most effort to bring into alignment). Mostly on track bikes, these were stiff as a bike. Road bikes were either round-oval-round or dimpled. ROR was without doubt better than dimpled especially on the drive side for the same give wall thickness. The variations that we see now are quite numerous and it is hard to clarify which ones really work well as comparisons are hard to come by. I like the conclusion of this variation.

Eric


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## BungedUP (Aug 18, 2003)

All I have to say is that bike is awesome. I LOVE it! 

Do you have any pictures with you on it? I'm trying to get an idea of scale. 

I'd love to have something like that, where I could sit really deep, with a super long wheelbase, just for rocketing down long road descents.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Let me clarify;

Saying that I didn't think it would make much difference was not clearly illustrative of my point. I don't think it would have a lot of positive effect on a fatbike's handling. Like Testmule says, I was betting it would be negative; reducing the characteristic of Fatness that is one of its hallmarks - tractability.

I would surmise that this cutting and capping routine was stronger than squashing of any sort, which is probably done because it is a QUICK & EASY way to buy clearance in a production setting, not because it helps frame stiffness.


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## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

In defense of short stay fatties, they're a blast on dirt! Maybe not for snow, but I think maybe there's 2 different uses there. 415 CS wheelie bike







cheers
andy


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

BungedUP said:


> All I have to say is that bike is awesome. I LOVE it!
> 
> Do you have any pictures with you on it? I'm trying to get an idea of scale.
> 
> I'd love to have something like that, where I could sit really deep, with a super long wheelbase, just for rocketing down long road descents.


 Thanx no pics of a clown on the clown......fat people don't photog well!!!!:nono::nono:


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Just rode the fiftee....19.6 proof at the Whiskey Offroad this last weekend bike handled everything well. The CS held up like a champ!!!


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> Of course, these clown stays are quite nice. Regarding this in general. I've had no problem getting clearance on my Fatties without any games at all. No dimples, no squashing, nothin. I suppose if you are trying for short stays, you might need to play these games. I have not built a short stay bike as of yet, so I can't say from ride experience, but my gut says it is all a bunch of hype & hooey. I've laid out short stay fatbikes bikes, and still did not have to do any of this squashing junk to get room. i'd like to build a short stay fattie, just to see if it makes any difference.
> 
> I'm betting not that much.


If anyone has told you that short chainstays are for everyone, they were definitely feeding you a bunch of hype and hooey. Short chainstays are great for certain riding styles, horrible for others, when used in combination with appropriate geometry elsewhere on the bike. All other things being equal, short stays, high bb, 70-72 hta, will generally equal a fat bike with more trials friendly geometry, great for rock crawling and slow speed maneuvers in chunky terrain. It will also work pretty well for floatation, but wont be as stable and 'sit-in' as bikes with more 'normal' fat bike geometry. Short stays, low bb, slack hta will generally equal a bike that's very fun at speed, stable, but favors the downhills more than the uphills and is a little bit better at bunnyhopping than most normal fatbikes.

In other words, if you like the fact that fat bikes are very stable, float well over soft surfaces, and generally handle like a normal bike, then you probably don't need to try a short stayed bike. It probably wont be of much benefit for you. If you have a trials or street/bmx background, and want some of that playability in your fatbike, a short stayed bike will probably suit your riding style very well.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*280 Miles*

Almost three hundred miles and rollin' strong if......when I do the next 36er I think im going to use a regular BB to try and get the CS super short other than that its a keeper!!!


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