# Big drops, big guys, and air shocks.



## Hobblyjig (Jun 28, 2011)

So I'm 6'3" and 200# (maybe 215 with my gear and pack). I have no experience on a full suspension bike. But I'm slowing putting a list together to build either a FR or a DH bike.

I'm interested in air shocks for the for the ablity to adjust them quickly and easly by just changing the pressure, and I've heard that they perform very close to the same as coil shocks. However I've also heard that for heavier riders they actually don't perform as well as coil shocks.

So I have 2 questions. Is that true? Does it apply to forks as well as rear shocks?


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## 3034 (Apr 12, 2006)

for downhill air shocks are bad
they ramp up with heat and it's hard to control rebound on jumps. coil is way better. front and rear


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## Duece (Apr 18, 2010)

Look at the RockShox Vivid Air


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## Hobblyjig (Jun 28, 2011)

> Hot Rod
> Your suspension should never fade before you do-that's why we developed Hot Rod to build fade-free performance into the new Vivid Air and updated Vivid rear shocks. A RockShox-tuned thermoplastic resin core in the adjuster rod expands when your shock heats up, resulting in consistent rebound force no matter how long or aggressive the descent.


Ya, supposedly the Vivid Air has built in compensation for the heat issue, but that doesn't answer my question about handling my weight.


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## 3034 (Apr 12, 2006)

I weigh 200 and the coil is much better. It seems that 99% of dh bikes I see at northstar and whistler are coil sprung


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

You dont weight that much. Your weight isnt a consideration in the air vs coil debate.


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## Rob-Bob (Jun 11, 2004)

I am about 225 geared up. Air shocks just don't feel the same as coil when they are set for my weight. Another thing to think about is if you get a leak in a coil shock you just lose some oil. If you blow a seal in an air shock your day is done. Also if you are over 200 lbs the little bit of added weight to our bike should not be an issue.


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## Hobblyjig (Jun 28, 2011)

I think I'll go coil up front for sure.

Really the only reason I kinda would like to have a rear air shock is because I'm looking at a bike with adjustable rear travel. It seems to me that it would be much more convenient to just change the air pressure in my shock rather than have to put on a different coil when I wanted to change the rear travel. But if it can't hack it when I'm riding, then its not worth the convenience.


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## asin (Jan 31, 2005)

On my Delirium I run an RP23 and it's awesome. I'm 6'7" 225lbs geared up. For Shore/FR general purpose use this shock has handled everything I've thrown at it with aplomb. I was skeptical when I bought it but Noel assured me that it was reliable and it totally has been. I doubt I'll ever run coil suspension again unless it was for a pure park/shuttle bike ... even then I'm not so sure...

The big hassle of coils is that sometimes you can't get quite the right spring rate. Air suspension is much lighter and I can tinker as much as I want to get it just right.

If you weighed 275+ then I'd start to really worry. <240 means you can pretty much run whatever you want.


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## Twisted1 (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm 160lb an Im always beating on my dhx air. The shock hold up to like 250lbs and I really never have any over heating problems. I'm more of a free ride type biker so I do take some large hits. One thing I notice with air shocks is that the rebound is either nay or yay at times. I always pump little bit more air and say screw the proper sag settings and it has never let me down. Far as coil vs air...... IMO coil feels way better. Hell next time to go to track/park ask a couple guys to ride there rigs.


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## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

3034 said:


> I weigh 200 and the coil is much better. It seems that 99% of dh bikes I see at northstar and whistler are coil sprung


Have you tried the Vivid Air? A lot of guys are liking it a lot. You're really quick to dismiss air shocks, is that an opinion based on experience? CC is about to come out with an air shock too.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

whodaphuck said:


> Have you tried the Vivid Air? A lot of guys are liking it a lot. You're really quick to dismiss air shocks, is that an opinion based on experience? CC is about to come out with an air shock too.


I'd like too see how many riders ditched their properly tuned coil shocks for air ? I find many AM riders praise their air suspension and have little to no experience w/ a coil suspension. Everytime I read about a new air shock it is compared to a coil's great performance


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## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

keen said:


> I'd like too see how many riders ditched their properly tuned coil shocks for air ? I find many AM riders praise their air suspension and have little to no experience w/ a coil suspension. Everytime I read about a new air shock it is compared to a coil's great performance


I'd like to see that too. I'm just trying to get info like everyone else. 3034 said coil was best and I was hoping he would give us specific examples so we could all learn. I'm not ready to ditch the coil shocks on my big bike yet....


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## Moosey (May 18, 2010)

i like air shocks just because they are way easier to mess around with, i can use a shock pump and put a ton of psi in there for a stiff ride, good for jumps, or i can lower the psi and make it squishy on the DH, that said i have never tried an air shock on a DH bike, only on my porter while doing DH... Air shocks are great for jump bikes...

Don't quote me on this, but i'm pretty sure i watched a bike check video where Cam Zink ran a vivid air on his Rampage bike. So apparently air shocks are strong enough to survive a 360 off a 50 foot drop... just some thing to think about. Doesn't mean they're good for DH...


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

I like air shocks for adjustability. If you're a light guy, or a really heavy guy, it's often tough to find the right springs, it seems like you're always sorta between springs and none of them feel EXACTLY right. This is not the case with air, it is infinitely adjustable. Air technology is pretty damn good right now and only getting better. I think a lot of people dismiss it but have never really tried a whole lot of air stuff.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I have plenty off experience running coil suspension but all my bikes are now air front and rear. However, I weigh 165. If I was over 200 I'd stick to coils because the higher air pressures needed result in extra stiction and the weight loss is less noticeable. The ease of tuning (especially on a travel adjust frame) is nice but I think a large rider will feel a difference between air and coil.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Jim311 said:


> I like air shocks for adjustability. If you're a light guy, or a really heavy guy, it's often tough to find the right springs, it seems like you're always sorta between springs and none of them feel EXACTLY right. This is not the case with air, it is infinitely adjustable. Air technology is pretty damn good right now and only getting better. I think a lot of people dismiss it but have never really tried a whole lot of air stuff.


IMO air shocks are not as adjustable as most would like to believe. Yes you can attach an air pump and change the air pressure quite easily but changing the volume is not. If you are an average weight rider the volume may work. Heavier / lighter riders are going to have problems w/ spring rate / travel use. When air shock's come w/ adjustable volume, LSC / HSC i'll open my eyes.


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## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

Lelandjt said:


> I have plenty off experience running coil suspension but all my bikes are now air front and rear. However, I weigh 165. If I was over 200 I'd stick to coils because the higher air pressures needed result in extra stiction and the weight loss is less noticeable. The ease of tuning (especially on a travel adjust frame) is nice but I think a large rider will feel a difference between air and coil.


So @ almost exactly 200lbs RTR I'm borderline. Since I recently had my DHX5 on the bigger bike Pushed I'm not looking to dump it for air just yet, but I am thinking about ditching the RP23 on the 5" bike and trying a Monarch + and see if some of the new air advancements make a noticeable difference.


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

I am 240lb and have limited experience with coil shocks. I have borrowed peoples bikes with them and always liked.

Most of my riding was with custom tuned RP23, this is a surprisingly good performer for AM/FR; not a DH shock though. Though to be fair it never let me down.

The big guy air shock is supposed to be the Manitou ISX6.

I fitted it a couple of weeks ago and it is stunning.

I can't give a long term review, but if you check review is it consistently mentioned as the clyde friendly big shock.


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## b-kul (Sep 20, 2009)

it seems like air technology is getting close to mimicking a coil but not quite there. the next few years should be an interesting time to watch what comes out.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

I weigh 210...it is basically like this

you can set the shock up perfectly, but you need to keep adjusting to keep it in place....on long DH runs (repeated hits) the shock will heat up and not perform to the set up you put it at. So it is not performing at top condition for you

For DH bikes and big guys .....run a coil

if you are doing more AM trails and some FR with hits inbetween, then run an air shock..

.if DH/resort riding...then do your self a favor and run the coil.....it will be more plusher and less harsh on hits....plus less maintenance to keep the shock performing at peak


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## pdxmonkeyboy (Oct 3, 2009)

I have ridden them all over the years. From the first rock shock elastomers all the way to boxxer word cup airs. Air shocks have their place for sure. BUT, that place is NOT on a DH bike. PERIOD. 

But, as some people just get an idea in their head and go with it wheather its the best idea or not, feel free to run air shocks on your dh bike. Just be prepared to sacrifice the supple smoothness that big travel coil forks deliver...which is what DH bikes are all about.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

OP: What's your intended use? Is this going to be a dedicated park/shuttle/lift serve gravity powered bike or will you be pedaling it? If you're pedaling it, what kind of descents and ups are you looking at in terms of distance and vert?

I'm 250-260 with gear and I've been very happy with the RP23 and the Monarch Plus RC3 (Pushed), I ran a DHX A 5.0 (2007) on my Delirium T and it was great once it was dialed, my Vtach has a Fox DHX 5.0 Coil. I ran a CCDB on my Tracer VPP. 

The CCDB is the best shock out there for adjust-ability and fine tuning, but its tough to appreciate if you're new to suspension. Cane Creek is making an Air version, I doubt they'd put something out that they felt was an inferior product. 

At the US Open of DH I spoke to a bunch of pros on the Vivid Air, all of them were happy and no reported issues.

So... figure out what you're gonna do on your new fangled rig, and then decide from there.


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## Hobblyjig (Jun 28, 2011)

> So... figure out what you're gonna do on your new fangled rig


That's kinda the hard part. I hadn't planned on making the bike a dedicated park/shuttle/lift service bike, but maybe I should. I do have a (cheap) hard tail 29er right now. Perhaps I could make my life a lot easier by keeping that bike to ride everything thing but DH.

The thing is here in UT there are a lot of great bike parks, but there are also a lot of great trails where you have to do some uphill to get to the downhill. I don't want to miss out on the trails because I built a dedicated DH bike.



> At the US Open of DH I spoke to a bunch of pros on the Vivid Air, all of them were happy and no reported issues.


Were they sponsored by SRAM  Just kidding, they probably wouldn't have fed you rhetoric.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Hobblyjig said:


> That's kinda the hard part. I hadn't planned on making the bike a dedicated park/shuttle/lift service bike, but maybe I should. I do have a (cheap) hard tail 29er right now. Perhaps I could make my life a lot easier by keeping that bike to ride everything thing but DH.
> 
> The thing is here in UT there are a lot of great bike parks, but there are also a lot of great trails where you have to do some uphill to get to the downhill. I don't want to miss out on the trails because I built a dedicated DH bike.
> 
> Were they sponsored by SRAM  Just kidding, they probably wouldn't have fed you rhetoric.


get an air shock for pedally days and a coil for resort long trails like Flying Monkey


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## Hobblyjig (Jun 28, 2011)

Look at you solving problems  Thanks for all the input. I only recently discovered this forum and I'm so glad I did! It is the most helpful, friendly, internet forum I've ever been on.


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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

A heads up about the marketing...

Every 4 years (+/-) all the shock companies come out with an air shock for DH. Everyone wants one to save weight. Some people buy them, try them and write reviews/questions on proper tuning. By next year, 99% of riders shoot them down and go back to coil. Granted, technology improves and brings it closer to reality, but until you see an air shock as OE on DH bikes I think it's kinda a waste of time/effort/money. ttyl, Fahn


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm with Fahn, only thing I'd add would be..

- if all your runs were mildly bumpy with sections of hits then the air may be okay as it'll have some time to cool down. Maybe.

BUT. If you're setting up a bike for dedicated DH/FR then going for saving weight and initial setup convenience is IMO false economy. For us non-supported people I think that it's just more sensical to stick with lower maintenance equipment.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

LarryFahn said:


> Every 4 years (+/-) all the shock companies come out with an air shock for DH.


Examples? While the DHX Air showed up on a couple DH bikes it was never marketed as a DH shock, rather for AM/Freeride. Same with the Roco Air. Manitou and Xfusion have piggyback air shocks but they're rare in general, I've never seen one on a DH bike, and I haven't seen any marketing of them as a DH shock.
The Vivid Air is the first mainstream air shock specifically designed for DH. Checking my sag at the beginning and end of a run shows that the spring is not getting noticeably firmer from heat. The air can doesn't cover up the shock body much so the damper shouldn't get much hotter than a coil Vivid. I agree that 2/3lb less weight and easier setup wouldn't be worth reduced performance in DH so I wouldn't use it if I didn't think it was just as good.


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## codename47 (Oct 20, 2008)

I'm 260lbs ungeared and went from DHX5 coil to DHX5 air on my Sx Trail 2008. Ride enduro, but for DH sections air performs better in my opinion. Precise setting of sag is big plus. Ramping at the end of the stroke makes better absorbing jumps and drops. Less weight is noticeably, and same I can say about changing fork from 66 RC2X coil to Float RC2 170mm.


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## kaniggitkev (Apr 2, 2011)

Moosey said:


> i like air shocks just because they are way easier to mess around with, i can use a shock pump and put a ton of psi in there for a stiff ride, good for jumps, or i can lower the psi and make it squishy on the DH, that said i have never tried an air shock on a DH bike, only on my porter while doing DH... Air shocks are great for jump bikes...
> 
> Don't quote me on this, but i'm pretty sure i watched a bike check video where Cam Zink ran a vivid air on his Rampage bike. So apparently air shocks are strong enough to survive a 360 off a 50 foot drop... just some thing to think about. Doesn't mean they're good for DH...


Kyle Strait runs a vivid air year round on his DH including at the rampage


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## Hobblyjig (Jun 28, 2011)

LarryFahn said:


> Everyone wants one to save weight.


Actually the reasons I'm looking at the Vivid Air is so that I can change the air pressure instead of swapping out the spring on a bike with adjustable travel. Also for my weight of 200# I'm right between a 450# and 500# spring, but with the air shock I can supposedly get it at the perfect psi.


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## Hobblyjig (Jun 28, 2011)

Lelandjt said:


> The Vivid Air is the first mainstream air shock specifically designed for DH. Checking my sag at the beginning and end of a run shows that the spring is not getting noticeably firmer from heat. The air can doesn't cover up the shock body much so the damper shouldn't get much hotter than a coil Vivid. I agree that 2/3lb less weight and easier setup wouldn't be worth reduced performance in DH so I wouldn't use it if I didn't think it was just as good.


Thanks for your comment:thumbsup: Its great to hear from someone actually using the shock. I'd love to hear anything else you can say, good or bad, about it.


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## myarmisonfire (Mar 28, 2005)

Hobblyjig said:


> Thanks for your comment:thumbsup: Its great to hear from someone actually using the shock. I'd love to hear anything else you can say, good or bad, about it.


I've had my Vivid Air for a few weeks and have about 10 rides on it. The shock is excellent. I have had a lot of coil and air shocks including the X Fusion air shock mentioned earlier (and it was on a DH bike. I would have bought one of the new X Fusion Vector air shocks but they will not be available for several months). I could go one for a while about how it rides and what not but I have found all the positive reviews to hold true and there have been no real draw backs. Plus it looks cool and that is all that really matters!


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## myarmisonfire (Mar 28, 2005)

I forgot. I weigh about the same as you. I'm around 200 with gear.


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## Kronk (Jan 4, 2004)

I should have tried the V-10 with the Vivid after the one with coil when I had the chance.
The Demo Center at Whistler has both coil and air V-10s, and I am #230, so I would have been able to have some feedback for you.
I made sure they reserved the coil one for me since I am a heavy rider. Didn't even consider the air version at the time.

Ed


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

XFusion Vector Air HLR

This thing is sooooo money! I had the opportunity to shred laps with my RC4, Vector HLR Coil, and the HLR Air all in one session so it was pretty easy to differentiate specific suspension traits. I'll go straight to the VAir HLR though- noticeable mid-stroke support, bottom-out handling is impressive and it didn't heat up nearly as much as my Vivid Air R2C did... Totally syked on this shock and it's coming out this Fall !!!


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Iggz said:


> XFusion Vector Air HLR


That shock has the reservoir attached to the shaft, rather than the damper body like a coil shock. My understanding is this is only done to make air can removal easy. I got the impression from Push that this seriously compromises the shock design, they won't even work on DHX Airs which they say are completely different from the coil version. Has Vector said anything about this construction and how they managed it? Rockshox instead chose to require a special tool for air can removal.


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## myarmisonfire (Mar 28, 2005)

Iggz said:


> XFusion Vector Air HLR


Sweet. How did you get to ride one of the proto shocks?

I think that the Vivid Air is the way it is because of the high/low rebound design and the complex negative spring arrangement. Check out some of the cut-away photos of the shock and you will see what I mean. There is a lot more going on in there!


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## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

On another note, did you guys see how many pros were on the new RockShox Kage at MSA this weekend? That was quite interesting to see, it is basically a lower-end version of the Vivid coil with less adjustability....it's unusual to find the top pros riding/testing something which is NOT the top of the line product, especially in a race situation. A return to just single compression and rebound adjusters and that's it?

http://dirt.mpora.com/news/mont-sainte-anne-saturday-pit-tech.html/attachment/rock-shox-cage/

I know they are sponsored riders and all that, but still...Minnaar wouldn't run a subpar shock if he felt it would slow him down even a fraction...


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

For me personally, I preferred my old Romic coil's adjustments with just rebound/compression adjusters. With the DHX you had all kinds of crazy ass adjustments that I just quite frankly don't understand well enough to where I think I really know how to dial it in.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Iceman2058 said:


> On another note, did you guys see how many pros were on the new RockShox Kage at MSA this weekend? That was quite interesting to see, it is basically a lower-end version of the Vivid coil with less adjustability....it's unusual to find the top pros riding/testing something which is NOT the top of the line product, especially in a race situation. A return to just single compression and rebound adjusters and that's it?
> 
> http://dirt.mpora.com/news/mont-sainte-anne-saturday-pit-tech.html/attachment/rock-shox-cage/
> 
> I know they are sponsored riders and all that, but still...Minnaar wouldn't run a subpar shock if he felt it would slow him down even a fraction...


When you have a suspension tech who'll internally tune and retune your shock you don't need multiple rebound and compression adjusters.


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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

Lelandjt said:


> Examples? While the DHX Air showed up on a couple DH bikes it was never marketed as a DH shock, rather for AM/Freeride. I've never seen one on a DH bike, and I haven't seen any marketing of them as a DH shock.


I've seen air shocks in sizes such as 9.5x3.0"- 8.75x2.5" for one example (smaller sizes in the past). How many 4,5,6" bikes use a 9.5" rear shock? None. What else are they made for? Also, much like the Fox inverted fork this year, the mags and websites go nuts over a pro's DH bike when they tried air shocks several years ago. I doubt this is the FIRST time you saw of heard of a DH air shock! How about Nitrogen? They tried it to keep the shock cooler. The reason people don't run an air on the back is the higher PSI in a smaller space (compression). It heats up too much and turns into a sponge by the bottom of the run. The Nitro is supposed to keep it cooler. Why does an air fork work though? A longer stroke and a lot lower pressure.

These post are all circa 2007... Every 4 years.
https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=276203
https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=350454
https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=267645
https://lp1.pinkbike.org/p4pb2519695/p4pb2519695.jpg
There's even a video!
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/norco-2009-team-dh-2008.html

ttyl, Fahn


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## COLIN M (Mar 26, 2009)

I will always run my Avy coil. It has never let me down nitrogen charged and custom tuned by Craig. IMO its the best suspension out and works for years without service. I have been running it on my Canfield Lucky for 4 years never leaked,faded and just plane works. Craig has been awsome to deal with and he makes other companies shocks work better then they do. To name a few Elkas(valved wrong overheats) Marzocchis he mods and i am sure others too. Ask anyone who has ridden one and i am sure you will here nothing but good a good review. I had a friend who rides a Foes Fly with Curnutt Air shock try my bike on a FR trail 2 weeks ago he came back saying that suspension is amazing and could not believe how plush it is. It is very different then traditional suspension very very progressive we call it dead feeling.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

LarryFahn said:


> The reason people don't run an air on the back is the higher PSI in a smaller space (compression). It heats up too much and turns into a sponge by the bottom of the run.


If it did heat up it would get firmer, not softer. This happens noticeably with the RP23 on my Ibis. However, on my V10 and my friend's Session our Vivid Airs show the same sag at the top and bottom of a run, meaning the air pressure isn't going up noticeably.
The reason every Rockshox sponsored pro isn't on one is because it has a little more stiction than a coil. The higher than average leverage rations on our bikes probably make this less noticeable than if you used it on a 3" stroke, 8" travel bike or maybe we like a firmer ride than some people.


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## Hobblyjig (Jun 28, 2011)

You are all welcome to continue the discussion, but my decision was made. I wound up buying what was on sale at my LBS. I got an amazing deal on a Fox 40 and Fox DHX RC4. When the price is really low on quality stuff its hard to justify paying more for anything else.


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## The_RuCKus (Jul 12, 2011)

Since you guys seem to have way more experience than I, I have a few questions. Im for sure a heavy rider at 270#, would I be better off getting a cheap hard tail beating that to hell while I lose weight? Or should I get the full suspension I want. 
How Ive ridden in the past I think a "all-mountain" would be best suited for me. Ive been looking at the Specialized Pitch Pro, the Cannondale Claymore and the Santa Cruz Heckler/Butcher. In your opinion and from what info Ive given, does any of these make sense for me? Or should I just get a hunk of crap and just beat it into the oblivion till Im closer to 220#?


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## Hobblyjig (Jun 28, 2011)

There's a guy here that owns a bike shop and rides a ton. He's 260# and his main bike is a full sus AM bike. It's a transition covert and he does everything on it.

I should probably add that with the components he has on it its a $5,000+ bike.


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## The_RuCKus (Jul 12, 2011)

Hobblyjig said:


> There's a guy here that owns a bike shop and rides a ton. He's 260# and his main bike is a full sus AM bike. It's a transition covert and he does everything on it.
> 
> I should probably add that with the components he has on it its a $5,000+ bike.


Yeah I'm thinking the Claymore would be the highest I'd go at approximately 3k


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## Hobblyjig (Jun 28, 2011)

The Transition Covert isn't an expensive frame. When I was still figuring out what bike I wanted They said they could build me a really nice one for closer to $3,200. The components would just be down graded from what the owner has on his bike.


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