# The ECDM thread



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Well I started a Fandango thread so why not one for the ECDM's out there.

So share your thoughts, good, bad, what year bike, how it's built, the team that rides it, and where or what terrain it rolls across.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

The drive home from AORTA 2010 had us talking tandems.

Somehow I convinced the boss we needed another tandem. We decided to buy Tim from Knoxvilles 2006 ECDM in electric super dust.

The bike has a nice build with DT hubs, Sun rims, ATC fork, SRAM / Raceface drivetrain, Magura discs and Thomson based controls. Frame size is the "semi-custom" 21/18.

We went with our typical Terry saddles.

Upon getting the bike, I made some little changes in cable and hose routing. Frame saver'd the paint work, and gave her the once over for spoke tensions and shifting. Overall a great bike for us.

I did notice the rear shock upper bushing was 8mm ID on 6mm bolt. Not sure what happened there but purchase of a new bushing from Ventana got it corrected.

The first ride I noticed the rear Fox RP3 had to be run with rebound fully closed. Prior to the next ride the fluid was replaced and a damper service done. Still the rebound was to light. I pulled it apart and revalved the rebound circuit. Next ride had the rebound adjuster set mid way. The bike was working very well.

For whatever reason, I decided it needed a better rear damper, so I purchased a used 07 Fox DHX 5.0 air. This thing had a large air can. The damping action was excellent, but the air spring rate was to linear. I replaced the large can to a small can, restting pressures. This made the bike work even better.

The DHX damper has external adjustments for rebound, multi click pro-pedal, and bottoming ramp pressure. Almost too much to figuire out via stoker communication, but I think we dialed it in.

Fork is a modified ATC set at just over 100mm travel.

Things to like, suspension on rough trails.

Things I don't like, to me electric super dust always looks dirty, though it is cool in the sun.

We are a larger team at 370 dry, and the bike is ridden in South Florida primarily on very tight technical singletrack.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

PMK said:


> ...Things I don't like, to me electric super dust always looks dirty, though it is cool in the sun.


Pictures??


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

Might I suggest re-naming the thread title to include the full, non abbreviated name of the bike. Would probably get some more search hits and help newbies (like myself).


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

*Our El Conq*

We have a 2006 El Conq in red. It was a surprise anniversary present for my lovely bride, and she didn't kill me for doing it...

It is a semi-custom 17/14 with a the toptube from a 19. We are a 300 lb team riding in the Colorado desert. Lots of rocks and moderate climbing. The spec was a MTBTandems basic: Sram X-9, Magura louise brakes, White Industries/Sun MTX wheels, ATC fork, RP23 rear shock.

Things we have done (or had to do): 
New fork - our ATC was bad. Now using Marzocchi Jr T. 170mm, which is more than I want but it works well.

New 5" rockers on the rear - I felt the suspension ramped up too quickly and we were not getting good travel use. I was torn between PUSH and new rockers. The 5" rockers really helped this.

New rear hub -blew up the White and are now trying a DT Swiss.

New rear Der (x-7) - tore the old one off.

converted the rear wheel to tubeless (ghetto) - works great.

Ergon grips - work well once the angle is dialed in.

Thinking of ditching the Maguras in favor of Avid BB7's, but haven't done it yet.

I'll post more pics when it is cleaned up from our Crested Butte vacation - but here's a couple of local riding shots.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> Pictures??


Eventually, been raining here since your request.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> Pictures??


Taken in sunlight after a wash down and wipe dry. Sometimes it sparkles in rainbow shades, but often looks just dirty.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Ours


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

Wow! How Tall are you guys? Nice build up but wow, that's got to be one of the largest ECDM's I've EVER seen (And I've seen most of them!)

-A


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Ciclistagonzo said:


> Wow! How Tall are you guys? Nice build up but wow, that's got to be one of the largest ECDM's I've EVER seen (And I've seen most of them!)
> 
> -A


That's the thing, we are not that tall. Stoker is 5"6" and I'm just touch over 5"10". The bike was bought initially to cannibalize and then have a new frame made with a stronger headtube junction made to reduce frame flex.

We test rode an ECDM at AORTA, which I believe was the same size front but 2(?) sizes smaller in the back. Ironically, neither the test bike nor our bike is yet to be a concern for my knackers, my short legs are long enough to flat foot me with some clearance when straddling the frame.

Overall top tube lengths (bars to saddle) mimic within a few mm all of our other bikes, both single and tandem.

Don't understand it, but it fits us decent and pedals efficient, just doesn't have a lot of seatpost extension.

PK


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

PMK said:


> Don't understand it, but it fits us decent and pedals efficient, just doesn't have a lot of seatpost extension.
> 
> PK


Hey, if it works for you, who cares!
OLE!
-A


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

*Our 2010 ECDM..*

Just got into doing Tandem rides.

It's 2010 in Cosmic Orange (Kids Choice).

ustom Size, 19" Cap 16" Stoker with Double Taco gusset design yielding the standover of the 17" and 14".

Tandem Team varies from 270lbs to 300lbs depending on which kiddo is back there with me. (Kids are 6 and 8).

Build kid was a hodge podge of new and spare parts, the most notable being the Hershey Tandem Cranks (old skoo!).
SLX Drivetrain.
Marz DJI fork (130mm)
and BB7 203mm Brakes.

Will be used mostly for family rides and smoother singletrack until kids get a little older and more comfortable back there. So far my 6 year old Daughter is by far the more aggressive one, wanting to tackle more rocks and bumps!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Ciclistagonzo said:


> Just got into doing Tandem rides.
> 
> It's 2010 in Cosmic Orange (Kids Choice).
> 
> ...


Very nice machine. I saw bike this posted in the Ventana forum a little while back.

Sorry for sounding abrupt about the bike fitting us. One thing I was noticing while looking at ECDM photos on the Ventana site, was that many ran a lot of exposed seatpost, and some times bars that were quite a bit below the seat height. Kind of an old school type position. Granted my bars are below the seat height also, just not as extreme as some.

Regardless though, your bike looks great in orange, most important though is you're enjoying it with someone special to you.

PK


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

PK, no worries, I didn't think you were abrupt! I love the fact that you're made it work as is, that's cool.

I don't have much of a Choice with the Seat/Bar height. I have a 33" inseam with a 6' frame, so my legs are a bit longer than norm. My Seat will always be higher than the bars. Even my All mountainy single bike (Sorry for posting a single on the tandem forum) has lower bars than seat positon. Funny thing is, it sure doesn't feel like it!
And thanks, we love "Orange Crush" and hearing the kids hoot in delight is a lot fun!


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Hi all,
Meet the Snot Rocket. Our new "toy" we purchased from Alex following AORTA. We love it. Traded up from a Fandango 26'r hardtail to enhance my stokers comfort. Notice the big smile on her face in the last picture. Thanks to Alex and Sherwood for making this happen. Also, thanks to Paul for the picture uploading advice.
Ed and Pat Gifford
Toms River, NJ


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Hey Ed,
Can you post some close-ups of your boom tube protection device?
Thanks


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Ed and Pat, as I said in the emails prior to you posting here, I love it.

Alex, great job on building such a clean looking setup.

Ed now needs to work on getting Larry and Brenda to get some photos of their Grinched Fandango on the other topic.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

There's obviously a lot more ECDM out there. I've seen many on MTBTandems site and the owners section of Ventanas site.

Post em up, it's nice to see the various ways these have been built up and setup. It will serve as good means to let others see possible upgrades, color combinations, or just ask how it is with the setup you run.

PK


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

TandemNut said:


> Hey Ed,
> Can you post some close-ups of your boom tube protection device?
> Thanks


Yes, please do! We need that!

It looks like maybe a fine paint job on a piece of PVC pipe cut lengthwise. Am I close?

I think we want ours to stand out as far as the chain, though.

Thanks,
-F


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Hi All,
Here are some pics of the skid plate. I need to start out by saying this is not my invention but that of my riding buddy Larry Isherwood. It is a piece of PVC piping but it isn't your Home Depot Sched. 40. It is very thin walled. I think the size is 3". We used to have a piping for sewer drain/DWV that was like this but the building codes have changed and now its all Sched. 40. The closest thing I could find was piping for an in home vacuum system and I couldn't find it locally. Larry found another small piece of this piping at work and made one for us as a gift for our new ECDM.( Thanks again, Lar) The material inside is thin foam weather stripping. Larry cut it by hand with a mini hacksaw and blade but I think a Dremil tool would do the job. You will notice the notch at one end. This is for chain and granny gear clearance. Also a series of drain holes were drilled in the bottom on centerline. It is cut so it fits snugly around the boom tube and would probably be OK like that but we use high voltage electrical tape that sticks only to itself to secure it at both ends. It leaves no glue residue on the finish.We have scraped over some obstacles and this takes the worry out of damaging your paint/powder coat finish. I put the color matched flames on just to add a personal touch.
Please post any other inventions of this nature so we can all share our wisdom.
Ed Gifford
Toms River, NJ


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## TandemGeek (Mar 14, 2004)

No, no... You want to wear your battle-scars like a badge of honor....

_(really-large image linked to this photo; just click)_


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Not sure if this has been a concern for others.

We have had random ghost shifts. The most obvious and repeatable was a short rooty climb that used most of the rear suspension travel going across the roots at the top.

Checks of the rear der system found nothing.

After a few rides, I noticed some marks where the rear suspension upper strut pivot, would contact the front der cable.

For whatever reason, this frame has the braze on for the cable offset left from the seattube centerline. Perfect for everything except when the suspension fully compresses.

I devised a quick low cost remedy. Using a V brake noodle and liner assembly, I opened the factory bend slightly and trimmed the tube shorter. I reassembled the noodle, then trimmed the housing as appropriate for the noodles length. Reinstalled, connected and set the front Der cable.

So far it seems fine with no skips.

Just sharing some stuff.

BTW, late 2005 build as a 2006 model.

PK


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

*Tandem (triple?) pic*

Here's one shot from our vacation in Crested Butte this month. We did some other great trails, but nobody was there to catch a pic. This is at the bottom of an fairly easy family ride. My son (4.5yrs) is just starting to go on trails.


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

*Ciclistagonzo - question*

Do you have a custom headtube angle? It looks more slack than others.


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## Team Breeze - Screamcycle (Jun 26, 2010)

*Skid Plat Close Ups on the ECDM - Screamcycle*



TandemNut said:


> Hey Ed,
> Can you post some close-ups of your boom tube protection device?
> Thanks


Here is our two year old Screamcycle and it's well used skid plate that I made for it when as soon as I got the bike to keep the aluminum boom tube from becoming scraped up & flattened since we live in a rocky area in North Eastern NJ.

Happy Trails,
Larry & Brenda ( TeamBreeze )


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## Team Breeze - Screamcycle (Jun 26, 2010)

Team Breeze - Screamcycle said:


> Here is our two year old Screamcycle and it's well used skid plate that I made for it when as soon as I got the bike to keep the aluminum boom tube from becoming scraped up & flattened since we live in a rocky area in North Eastern NJ.
> 
> Happy Trails,
> Larry & Brenda ( TeamBreeze )


Don't know what happened to the two close ups of the skid plate, but hopefully they are here now.....


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

*ECDM Pics*

Here's a couple of pics of our ECDM. Needs to get cleaned up a bit.
Primary components:
X.9 shifters and deraileurs
Marz 55ATA
DaVinci cranks
Industry Nine wheels
Magura Louise BAT brakes


[URL=https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/jviROmWZQjc6yNSzuvlM9g?feat=embedwebsite]

From Grinch
[/URL]

[URL=https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YpPaPDZ81rUa4Sh_nkb5ig?feat=embedwebsite]

From Grinch
[/URL]
Here's one that Chris (aka Trails4Two) took when we were in Fruita earlier this year

[URL=https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1POgouhodWshby5aAz2Lgw?feat=embedwebsite]

From Grinch
[/URL]


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Team Breeze - Screamcycle said:


> Don't know what happened to the two close ups of the skid plate, but hopefully they are here now.....


When we rode with Larry and Brenda at AORTA 2010, they pounded over a logover. The glideplate made a funky slapping sound. Then we watched it appeared the bike accelerated as it slid on the plastic. Brenda got popped up in the air a bit as the rear tire contacted the logover.

Some where this is on video from our helmetcam. It was crazy to witness, and then see again on video.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> Here's a couple of pics of our ECDM. Needs to get cleaned up a bit.
> Primary components:
> X.9 shifters and deraileurs
> Marz 55ATA
> ...


Very Nice.

What race, Leadville?

PK


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

TandemGeek said:


> No, no... You want to wear your battle-scars like a badge of honor....
> 
> _(really-large image linked to this photo; just click)_


Very nice; got a daVinci with a boom tube that looks like that.
However, since we don't hang our tandems from the ceiling, if anyone ever sees our boom tube scars from that particular angle, we've either achieved massive (and likely unsurvivable) air, or we're in an inadvertantly inverted position due to some bad DWC judgement. Either way, it won't be pretty.


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## Team Breeze - Screamcycle (Jun 26, 2010)

*North WESTERN New Jersey ...not Eastern ...duh*



Team Breeze - Screamcycle said:


> Here is our two year old Screamcycle and it's well used skid plate that I made for it when as soon as I got the bike to keep the aluminum boom tube from becoming scraped up & flattened since we live in a rocky area in North WESTERN New Jersey ....NOT Eastern NJ. :madman:
> 
> Happy Trails,
> Larry & Brenda ( TeamBreeze )


DUH....TYPO .....We live in North WESTERN New Jersey!!! :blush:


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

PMK said:


> Very Nice.
> 
> What race, Leadville?
> 
> PK


Yes - Leadville.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Team Breeze - Screamcycle said:


> DUH....TYPO .....We live in North WESTERN New Jersey!!! :blush:


Is this the same as New York?:yikes:

PK


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## Team Breeze - Screamcycle (Jun 26, 2010)

PMK said:


> When we rode with Larry and Brenda at AORTA 2010, they pounded over a logover. The glideplate made a funky slapping sound. Then we watched it appeared the bike accelerated as it slid on the plastic. Brenda got popped up in the air a bit as the rear tire contacted the logover.
> 
> Some where this is on video from our helmetcam. It was crazy to witness, and then see again on video.
> 
> PK


If you ever find the time to find this clip and send it to us or let us know when you can post it to your vimeo account online we would sooooooooooo appreciate it.


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

Trails4Two said:


> Do you have a custom headtube angle? It looks more slack than others.


Sorry T42 I was away on a mtb vacation, just saw this q.

Not intentionally, I do run the Marz at the Stock 130mm, so that may be part of it, but with a 72" wheelbase I think it only changes the headangle by 1/2 degree.

I will measure it tonight and let you know what it is.

-A


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## CrashCanipe (Jan 12, 2004)

Team Breeze - Screamcycle,

Where in NW NJ do you live? I'm in Chester and ride the Allamuchy area nearly every weekend. We have an ~2000 EDCM that has gotten less use with little kids at home. I'm actually going to get it out this Saturday (likely, not definite) this weekend when we ride with some friends on single bikes at either Stephen's or Deer Park.
Barry


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## Team Breeze - Screamcycle (Jun 26, 2010)

*Howdy Neighbor !*



CrashCanipe said:


> Team Breeze - Screamcycle,
> 
> Where in NW NJ do you live? I'm in Chester and ride the Allamuchy area nearly every weekend. We have an ~2000 EDCM that has gotten less use with little kids at home. I'm actually going to get it out this Saturday (likely, not definite) this weekend when we ride with some friends on single bikes at either Stephen's or Deer Park.
> Barry


Hi Barry & wife!
We live in the next town....Succasunna....we'll definitely have to get together.....and there are more of us (off road tandems) local within the area!
Larry & Brenda


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## CrashCanipe (Jan 12, 2004)

Team Breeze - Screamcycle said:


> Hi Barry & wife!
> We live in the next town....Succasunna....we'll definitely have to get together.....and there are more of us (off road tandems) local within the area!
> Larry & Brenda


That's terrific. NJ is a great place for a tandem (or any bike). Great variety of terrain - 6 Mile, Chimney Rock, Lewis Morris, Allamuchy, Mahlon, etc. Have never made it to Kittantiny (sp?). Getting together with other tandems would be incentive for us to get the tandem out more often. I will PM you my contact info. Oh, and I would love the see the Fandango 29er in action. Our ECDM is not a perfect size (a little too big) so I've considered making a change. Plus, all my single bikes now are 29ers.
Barry


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## Team Breeze - Screamcycle (Jun 26, 2010)

CrashCanipe said:


> That's terrific. NJ is a great place for a tandem (or any bike). Great variety of terrain - 6 Mile, Chimney Rock, Lewis Morris, Allamuchy, Mahlon, etc. Have never made it to Kittantiny (sp?). Getting together with other tandems would be incentive for us to get the tandem out more often. I will PM you my contact info. Oh, and I would love the see the Fandango 29er in action. Our ECDM is not a perfect size (a little too big) so I've considered making a change. Plus, all my single bikes now are 29ers.
> Barry


We did try to reply to your e-mail to us at our private e-mail address and it came back as delivery failed.
So please e-mail us privately again...we shoudl be heading to Stephens this Sunday at 10am with friends.


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

Ciclistagonzo said:


> Sorry T42 I was away on a mtb vacation, just saw this q.
> 
> Not intentionally, I do run the Marz at the Stock 130mm, so that may be part of it, but with a 72" wheelbase I think it only changes the headangle by 1/2 degree.
> 
> ...


I'm getting 71.75 Degrees Head tube angle. Only 0.25 off of stock. I bet its mostly an optical illusion because of the sloping top tube.

-Aaron


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

Thanks for checking. I was just curious. Hopefully my stokers broken finger will heal up soon so we can get out for some kind of ride. Our poor bike has been sitting for almost three weeks during prime season!


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Trails4Two said:


> Hopefully my stokers broken finger will heal up soon so we can get out for some kind of ride. Our poor bike has been sitting for almost three weeks during prime season!


Sorry for the lack of sympathy but I can hear my mother saying "If the bone isn't poking through your skin, tape a popsicle stick on it and go!"

Yes, she would say that. Old school. 

-F

PS - sorry to go so OT


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

No sympathy needed. She broke it riding singletrack here in Junction and two days later was biking in Crested Butte for 5 days - this might be why it still hurts a bit...


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Trails4Two said:


> Here's one shot from our vacation in Crested Butte this month. We did some other great trails, but nobody was there to catch a pic. This is at the bottom of an fairly easy family ride. My son (4.5yrs) is just starting to go on trails.


Somehow I overlooked this photo.

Very cool to get the entire family involved.

PK


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

Trails4Two said:


> Here's one shot from our vacation in Crested Butte this month. We did some other great trails, but nobody was there to catch a pic. This is at the bottom of an fairly easy family ride. My son (4.5yrs) is just starting to go on trails.


How hard is it for the captain to keep everyone upright? I'm looking to do that on gentle trails and toe-paths. Do you just bomb through it on a big bike and pray he holds on in the way back?
I just took my son out this weekend for 6.5mi on my single plus his trail-a-bike. If you look back at your picture, the last 15ft you just cleared, that was what 75% of our ride was like. Picking and choosing the best line, trying to lessen the impact on him, knowing I couldn't just hop an obstacle. Roots, rocks, off camber 12" wide single track.......my upper body was put through the wringer. Felt like I would have if I did 3-4x the mileage alone.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

C'mon Tandemgeek, CrashCanipe, and others, share a photo and some build specs.

It may help others considering similar stuff hear how well it works, or maybe doesn't.

I know I'd like to see the suspension geometry curve on Tandemgeeks earlier ECDM. Kind of curious if rate is rising 100% or if it is falling rate deep in the stroke. Could be a good test to try a more modern rear damper.

PK


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## CrashCanipe (Jan 12, 2004)

I will try to get some pictures this weekend.

Our EDCM is about 12 years old so it is not as shiny as some of the ones posted on here. It has a 2001 Zoke DJ1 fork I bought from Alex and a rare set of Kooka cranks. It needs to have the rear shock replaced and could use a stiffer front fork. The Team Breeze crew got to hear the squeaks of the rear shock our whole ride last weekend.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

What rear damper? Fox ALPs series?

Good rear damper in many ways. Has many design features that make it superior to current stuff.

PK


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

PMK said:


> C'mon Tandemgeek, CrashCanipe, and others, share a photo and some build specs.
> 
> It may help others considering similar stuff hear how well it works, or maybe doesn't.
> 
> ...


PK, you're going to make my Ventanaphile Show!.

All Ventana's use the same linkage design, so in that respects, I know 'em very well. Original suspension Ventana's even the Marble Peak style (shock attached to Top tube) were "linear rate" that is, they were rising rate first 1/2 of travel and then falling rate second half. Hence why they were plush but didn't bottom out hard, (the falling rate second half counters the air shocks inheret rising rate spring curve).

Right about 2005, modern dampers with the platform dampers caused V to adjust the kinetics, they switched to 2/3 rising 1/3 falling rate (on average) the longer rising rate was used to drive the shocks more and get more active travel out of the mid stroke of the shocks. 
I don't think this applies to the tandems as they have maintiained the 2" stroke shocks, but.
In 2008, Ventana adjusted the rockers again to start using longer stroke shocks. Those are still 2/3 rising, 1/3 falling, but with more stroke to work with the rockers aren't as aggresively driving the shock, netting a smoother ride.

I'm eager to get my kids more accustomed to offroading since I have the old 6" (150mm) rockers from my Bruja collecting dust and I may just swap out the 4" rockers to those and balance out my travel with the front. (130mm).

OLE!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Ciclistagonzo said:


> PK, you're going to make my Ventanaphile Show!.
> 
> All Ventana's use the same linkage design, so in that respects, I know 'em very well. Original suspension Ventana's even the Marble Peak style (shock attached to Top tube) were "linear rate" that is, they were rising rate first 1/2 of travel and then falling rate second half. Hence why they were plush but didn't bottom out hard, (the falling rate second half counters the air shocks inheret rising rate spring curve).
> 
> ...


Sherwood and I discussed a bit about the design and percentage of riding vs falling rate along the suspension plot. He also brought in the topic of anti-squat, something most suspension designers overlook to often. As a suspension geek myself, it was a fun discussion. One of the reasons for it was initially we were considering having a frame built for us. I had planned to use a Cane Creek / Ohlins TTx coil over and wanted a greater percentage of the movement rising rate.

As it turned out, this ECDM we bought is working very well for us. I am not a fan of lockout systems on a suspension bike. The only time we would ever engage one is on very smooth terrain.

Our RP3 that the bike came with was way off on the rebound damping rate. I revalved the shim stack and lucked out to get the damping good with the clicker set midway on the first attempt. We put some miles on it and found it decent. Prior to revalving it further, I moved forward and bought the DHX5.0. Other than the air spring volume being to large, it has been pretty good as delivered. Currently the rear is far superior to the front ATC fork.

I don't know how I'll pull this off money wise, but the wife said yes we need a different fork since having the front get sketchy bothers her. We haven't gone down yet from it sliding the front tire, but a few times she asked "didn't you feel the front tire steeping out?". The casual reply was well yeah, did you?

The fork ordered is a Fox40RC2 Kashima. I'm expecting I'll need to revalve both the fork and DHX a couple of times before it's best for us. Thought the fork may arrive today, then I need to clip the travel. Guessing I'll settle on about 115/120 mm. Get it on and broken in. Then start playing with shim stacks. With luck, and our current schedule, this will be late October to see happen.

Like the Fandango topic, I thought this might be a spot where teams might let others see their rides AND share setup details, such as team weights, clicker settings, air pressures both front and rear, sag amounts if ever measured, but most importantly what each setup does well and what needs to be better. As I've mentioned before, this is not a topic of mine is better than yours, rather one of you have a pretty cool setup tell us more.

As for the ECDMs with the early style frames and ALPs dampers, if you need info, just ask, I've rebuilt a lot of them over the last 15 years.

Also, has anyone tried a PUSH big hit bottoming cushion on their ECDM?

PK


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

*Not a ECDM, but still a Ventana*

Our tandem although not a El Conquistidor, is the no longer made El Testigo. We had an ECDM, but sold it to buy a El Testigo, which we sold, when my wife got pregnant, then we bought this current one, which is due for some upgrades soon. Still its an awesome machine, 6" travel rear, 7" front.


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Wow Jeff what an awesome lookin' tandem. We rode with a couple that had a Grinch Green E.T. at AORTA this spring in North Carolina. With all that travel you must rip on the down hills.
Ed and Pat Gifford
Toms River, NJ


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

Thanks,
This tandem not only is fast on the DH's, but fast everywhere. This bike is easily our fastest all around tandem that we owned.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Nice Jeff.

What color, tough to tell from the photo, almost looks like Electric Super Dust.

PK


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

It is a pretty bad photo at this resolution, might need to take a new photo since this one is a couple of years old. The frame has a custom flat black powder coat which Ventana only did on their DH bike. We were going for that stealth look...as much as a tandem can be stealthy.
The bike is a 17/14, which seems a bit small considering that I (captain) is 6' tall and my wife (stoker) is 5' 10", but all the measurements that were important to us ie; top tube lengths are the same as the 19" captains and the rear is the same on all sizes. We just wanted a bit more stand over height.
We outfitted it with SRAM XO rear der. and shifters, XTR fr. der., custom FSA Team Carbon cranks, Hurricane H45 seatposts, Hurricane Stelvio stem, Answer Hyperlite bars, Hayes Brakes, Mavic X819 rims laced to DTSwiss FR430 hubs with DT 14g black spokes.
While this bike weighs a little over 50lbs, this bike is incredibly fast. I cannot pinpoint as to why, but it seems so much faster that our previous Ventana's


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> ... Mavic X819 rims laced to DTSwiss FR430 hubs with DT 14g black spokes.


819s huh? I would have thought more like 823s on that rig (or any tandem mtb for that matter)...

Do you run tubeless?


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

*Bigfoot, our ECdM*

Hello all,

I figured this was the best place for my first post. I give you Bigfoot, our ECdM. It's a 17/16 frame, Marz 66SL front fork, stock RP3 rear, Middleburn cranks and rings, SRAM shifting bits, and our new MTX/Chris King wheel set.

We just got our frame back from Ventana after breaking it - crack in the stoker's bottom bracket. For three years the frame had been Cosmic Blue, but with the crack repair we took advantage and got a new coat of Ferrari Red.

The wheel set is new because we kept killing WI rear hubs. Riding tandem is one of our main hobbies, and we also volunteer with the Mountain Bike Unit to patrol the Santa Monica Mountains NRA, so it sees a lot of miles and a lot of trails. We also had it up in Bend, Oregon, recently to poach some of their wonderful trails. Yes, we rode Whoops. Twice.

The bike gets a lot of comments. You'd think we had the only off-road tandem, ever.


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

*Sweet!*

It looks clean and fast. What are the brakes? They look like six-pots.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

It looks clean because that's the post-assembly picture It was dirty three hours later.

The brakes are Hope Mono 6Ti. Very good stopping power with Hope pads (sintered in front, organic in back to eliminate the crazy vibration harmonics sintered pads caused). Haven't found a comparable aftermarket pad, though I've got a set of EBC greens coming.


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

*Finally cleaned the bike*

Here it is, finally cleaned up from our Crested Butte mudbath and about to embark on a trip to Winter Park. As I mentioned before we are about 300 lbs and like lots of suspension. 5" rockers in the rear and a 170mm fork in front. RP23 in back set at 205lbs pressure with the 5" rockers or 140lbs with 4" rockers. Rebound is set one click away from full slow and we very rarely use propedal. Everything is pretty good now with a possible brake change if these act up one more time...


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I figured this was the best place for my first post. I give you Bigfoot, our ECdM. It's a 17/16 frame, Marz 66SL front fork, stock RP3 rear, Middleburn cranks and rings, SRAM shifting bits, and our new MTX/Chris King wheel set.
> 
> ...


Pretty sporty. I bet the MTX rims make it track good.

One question, why do you have the stokers cranks leading the captains by a few teeth? On our off road tandems, with keep them in phase, on our Co-Mo we run Captains two teeth out with the Captain crank advanced.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Trails4Two said:


> Here it is, finally cleaned up from our Crested Butte mudbath and about to embark on a trip to Winter Park. As I mentioned before we are about 300 lbs and like lots of suspension. 5" rockers in the rear and a 170mm fork in front. RP23 in back set at 205lbs pressure with the 5" rockers or 140lbs with 4" rockers. Rebound is set one click away from full slow and we very rarely use propedal. Everything is pretty good now with a possible brake change if these act up one more time...


Looking good cleaned up.

If you can get the rear damper revalved firmer on rebound, it will make the compression a bit more compliant without getting a vague feel to it.

Curious about the brake problems...ours has the same brakes I believe. Most times they work with little noise, if they get used lightly and have a lot of dust the rumble a little, sometimes more than others.

When we got our bike the rear brake needed to be bled and the hose routes I thought could be better. Rerouted, and prior to bleeding, I loosened the hose at the master cylinder and allowed the hose to lie properly with no coiling. I know Magura is not a DOT brake fluid, but a mineral (petroleum) based fluid. For years I have used either Mobil 1 atf, or quality suspension fluids in Magura products with excellent results.

The fluid of the week was Showa ss5, or ss7, I'd need to check. Regardless, they were pressure bled with a Mightyvac automotive brake bleeder. The less viscous fluid gives the lever a better feel with no lg on return.

Hope they continue to work for you. Guessing Avids if not.

PK


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

PMK said:


> One question, why do you have the stokers cranks leading the captains by a few teeth?


Purely an assembly error that was corrected prior to the first ride. The area I assembled the bike was only so big, and I couldn't get a good POV on the bike until I took it out front.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> Purely an assembly error that was corrected prior to the first ride. The area I assembled the bike was only so big, and I couldn't get a good POV on the bike until I took it out front.


You are such a bad liar...I know for fact, because I saw it on the internet that it has to be a super secret speed trick.

Looks good!

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Okayfine said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I figured this was the best place for my first post. I give you Bigfoot, our ECdM. It's a 17/16 frame, Marz 66SL front fork, stock RP3 rear, Middleburn cranks and rings, SRAM shifting bits, and our new MTX/Chris King wheel set.
> 
> The bike gets a lot of comments. You'd think we had the only off-road tandem, ever.


Welcome to MTBR (tandem forum), I recognize that bike and cracked BB story from DF. Good to see some new big bike riders around here!

That's quite a nice new paint job there too!

Please keep up posted on your experience with the king hubs. Seems to always be the ultimate question - Best hubs on the mtb tandem?


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

ds2199 said:


> Please keep up posted on your experience with the king hubs. Seems to always be the ultimate question - Best hubs on the mtb tandem?


I hope so. We had a number of experiences with broken WI rear hubs (I have a wheelset for sale, WI hubs, anyone interested - nearly new after rebuild ), and the long walks home really weren't what we set out for.

Still breaking in the CK hubs. I should hope to prove them worthy of the expense, but as with the frame repair - our main hobby is tandeming, so it is what it is. Owner's manual is nice and useful, which is a plus. Hopefully regular maintenance is all I'll need to do to 'em.


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

Youre right, there not X819's, there are X729's


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

Your tandem looks great, really liking the Ferrari red paint(powder coat)


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Yes, I read also about the cracked BB shell and the reasonable cost for repair. Just knowing that Sherwood and company would consider a repair is huge these days. Then to accomplish the repair, with what sounds like a complete inspection, and then repowderoat is over the top in customer service.

After looking at the photo again, if you haven't rerouted that front brake hose, it might be wise so you don't use the hose as your brake pads.

Looks good all hot rod red.

With Snot Greens and Ferrari Reds, holidays will be wonderful here.

PK


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Ventana's not the # 1 off-road tandem company in the world for no reason. Situations like this, while very rare, are one of the reasons I'm an avid Ventana dealer (and owner several times over). Wish I had the floor space for their singles too.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

As an update, the folks at Fox have always amazed me since 1974, awesome stuff, but typical west coast to deal with.

Fork arrived but the travel reduction spacers never came, and the spring they sent was for a 2006 series Fox 36, not even close.

And yes there are all kinds of warning about not being motorcycle, tandem or anything other than a single bike as being "approved".

But, I'm pretty certain if we can break this Fox40, nothing short of Showa "A"kit stuff would hold up.

I'll give you guys details of how short I can make the travel, or if I feel I can make it work well down to 100mm. I'll also let you know what springs make it work.

I'm pretty certain the most travel I can run is 6" (150mm), more than that will be tough on the "boys". First try will be 125mm ish.

PK


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## moodray (Aug 21, 2010)

*Joining in...*

Hi All,

Just swapped over to an ECDM 29'er from our beloved Fandango Tio (which has already found a new home). Nothing like Christmas in September!!

Alex from MTBTandems helped me spec and build the bike. I was glad I asked to have the rear triangle painted same color as the rest of the frame (Alex said Ventana rarely does this). The flat Army Green color is _MEAN_!!

We took a maiden ride last night on a staple ride of ours and man, what a difference full suspension makes. The stoker was elated, we rode faster than ever, and the frequency of me yelling "BUMP!!" decreased dramatically.

The larger wheels took some getting used to, but all in all, we're very very happy with it.

Hope to share future experiences with you all as time goes on.

Aaron & Shaye


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Looks awesome. I'd suggested Army Green when we were deciding on the color after the repair. I'm still happy with Ferrari Red, but perhaps we'll go green next time.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

That 29r ECDM looks like a great build. Being dead honest, the Army Green wasn't for us when we rode Alex's personal Fandango. Not a bad color just not our color, and as we all know, that's why different colors are offered.

The matching color rear suspension arms is pretty hot though. I like that a lot.

If it weren't so labor intensive, I'd paint remove and polish ours. Be a good winter project but for us that's a good time to be riding.

Bottom line...nice bike...nice build...and another good spec from Alex giving the customer what they want.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Finally...Fox 40 Kashima is mounted and even got a ride on the ECDM today.

Kind of an ordeal to make this happen, and Fox made it the most difficult to spend money on their stuff.

Fork was ordered with an order number and all. Ordered travel reduction spacers and another spring all at the same time. Two weeks later nothing is here. Call Fox and they have no record of the order, or order number.

Place a new order. Same thing, additional spring, and travel reduction spacers. So the fork arrives, totally wrong spring and no spacers.

Order spacers and spring again, finally it is all here.

While waiting, I temporarily mounted the fork. Come to find out, the Magura brakes we currently have, non post style Louises, don't work with a Fox 40 unless you have the "Fox 40 adapter" from Magura AND the short arm caliper. So I call Magura, both parts...none in stock, none on order, none on back-order.

So I order Avid BB7's and levers.

Finally everything is here.

Fit the fork and brakes.

Reduce the travel. Shortest I could go was 5 1/2" of travel with a Fox 40 spring.

I initially attempted to run the original Fox spring. It is titanium, but the rate is too soft. Swapped to the red spring (firmest available), with 5 reduction spacers. This gave proper preload (good race sag amount) with no preload "dialed in".

Couple runs up and down the street to get the compression and rebound close.

Off to the trail. We rode Dyer which is our climbing trail with a singletrack perimeter. It's an old landfill, converted to a park.

The first couple miles had me taking mental notes. We did stop once and I opened the rebound a couple clicks (bottom of the fork).

After a couple more miles, I was able to get the low speed compression good, and was still playing with the high speed compression.

The fork works very well, the fork is stupid expensive so it should work well. 

How good...suffice to say it makes you very confident and willing to ride just about any nasty hack on the trail. The climbing and descents were a non issue. Many of the descents had deep ruts from recent heavy rains. It was apparent others were avoiding the ruts and riding to the side. You might guess where I pointed that ECDM, and the stoker was either in shock or didn't notice because not a word was said until the ruts end. After explaining that I'm crazy, she did comment that it was not a big deal to ride it.

The previous ATC could have ridden it, but would be less predictable or confidence inspiring.

We got in a bunch of miles both singletrack and the hill. Remember how I mentioned the confidence that the fork provided, well a wet diagonal root got me on lap 3, sending us a bit sideways. The pine tree was not injured. The impact twisted the bars / stem. Very slightly bent the left lever, and broke the window of the XO shifter. Kind of made my shoulder hurt too.

Rear admiral decided we had ridden enough, so after straightening the stem we headed home. Lever is still 100% ridable, shifter gets a speed tape mod for now.

So how to solve the slight deflection on an angled wet root, first go to the side like the previous laps OR, back off the high speed compression.

The fork is good, can not compare to a WB 100t or a RS BoXXer since I don't have one or one nearby to test.

Travel wise, one rooted step up had us use all but 3/16" of travel. So almost the full 5 1/2".

Other than Fox and their shipping issues, if you buy a Kashima coated fork, it seems Fox has poor consistency in the golden color. Our fork has one dark gold tube and one light gold tube. Fox has no interest to correct it. At this price, you would think they could do a better job of at least matching the tubes colors when they build the fork. The fork looks "wrong" when at rest, but when riding you aren't looking at the upper tubes.

Sorry for the long post.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

The ECDM got some serious rides on it in Mulberry Gap, Georgia.

http://www.mulberrygap.com/

Besides the awesome trails, Diane, Ginny, Jason, & Andrew will take great care to see you enjoy everything. The homecooked meals would make anyone prefer to eat than ride, but being an MTB destination the meals are also very healthy, giving you fuel for the next ride, while letting you sleep the night not feeling fat.

Mulberry gap has climbing, nuf said.

The ECDM never complained on the climbs, and the suspension was damped spot on for the climbs with no clicker changes. No bobbing or wallowing as we climbed either the dirt roads or singletracks.

The singletrack at Mulberry Gap was a another test for the new fork, I made no spring or preload changes but did add a click of low speed compression. I also softened high speed compression one click.

So what does this all mean. The bike saw everything from long slow granny climbs, to nasty hacked one line descents where I had expected to see the Avid brakes plastic knobs melted, and both ends never stepped out, swapped, or bottomed noticeably.

The trail varied from crushed granite gravel on the dirt road sections, to hard pack dirt, some very dry powdery sections of dry silt (they said they need rain), to some valleys that were wet dirt, being fall, there was plenty of fallen leaves to add more dimension both dry and wet, plus rocks, roots, also both dry and wet, even some grassy sections and for good measure we crossed a half dozen or so shallow creeks / streams.

Bottom line, it is not tandem rated but has 40mm upper tubes made for serious descenders. The fork does not flex. The action is dialed to not deflect off stuff. The weight is not bad.

If I had one complaint it was losing a bit of turning lock for really slow switchbacks when compared to a singlecrown or the previous ATC or even a Headshok Moto. But as I complain, not once did we not navigate without stopping every super tight switchback we encountered. I can only recall once where the stoker unclipped expecting us to fall to the inside, but we didn't.

I guess if you can justify the need, and can overcome the cost, plus are willing to ignore the non tandem warning, this is a very good fork to run.

PK


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## ostwandlager (Oct 24, 2010)

Thread


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ostwandlager said:


> Thread


Anyone know what cranks those are. My eyes may be messing with me but they look like XT's.

Could they be XT octalink 1's with some crank arm rethreading? (or pedal spindle swapping)

PK


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## ostwandlager (Oct 24, 2010)

*Hi, 
its the older Shimano XT Octaline . we got them from Shimano but they are no longer oddwews. 
Greating*


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ostwandlager said:


> *Hi,
> its the older Shimano XT Octaline . we got them from Shimano but they are no longer oddwews.
> Greating*


Were these tandem specific cranks, or were they modified to work?

Were the crank arms rethreaded for proper pedal installation.

And required buying an individual arm or third set of cranks to have enough drive spiders.

PK


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

PMK said:


> Anyone know what cranks those are. My eyes may be messing with me but they look like XT's.
> 
> Could they be XT octalink 1's with some crank arm rethreading? (or pedal spindle swapping)
> 
> PK


In their photo gallery it definitely looks like XT. There are Euro-spec tandem cranksets from Shimano that we never see in the US. I know there were LX level tandem cranksets for a while as well. Since Shimano doesn't talk to little folk like us, I never could get a straight answer on if such items exist or not.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Alex, I know you sell Middleburn, what is the current offerings from them in regards to ISIS or square or ? and there drive spider interchange gets a touch confusing.

Checking your site, is the tandem package "the one"?

I ask since I am no longer a big square taper fan. While ISIS may have some durability troubles, I have found on the Co-Mo that it is realy nice to be able to pull the cranks easily, and reinstall with consistent repeatable positions that require no frt der tweeks.

Our ECDM has Race Face square tapers in red that I wouldn't mind changing to some form of spline fit. Crazy I know, but mainly just in the name of easier maintenance.

My other option, but I'm hesitant on, is reinstalling the Gossamers on the Co-Mo, and swapping the ISIS Race Face onto the ECDM. But would prefer keeping it 175 / 175 as opposed to 175 / 172.5. Maybe I should change and get my lazy stoker more rev'd up.

PK


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## ostwandlager (Oct 24, 2010)

*Hi, 
theese shimano cranks we have bought as a tandemset. Greatings*


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

PMK said:


> Alex, I know you sell Middleburn, what is the current offerings from them in regards to ISIS or square or ? and there drive spider interchange gets a touch confusing.
> 
> Checking your site, is the tandem package "the one"?
> 
> PK


Middleburn makes both ISIS and ST tandem crank arms. They make 104/64 4 bolt, 94/58 compact 5 bolt, and 110/75 ATB 5 bolt spiders. They also make UNO ring/spider combos, as well as DUO ring/spider combos. All are interchangeable with their RS7 and RS8 cranksets, including the tanden cranksets.
The tandem crankset uses UNO's for timing rings, and they range from 32T to 38T in size.
However, once can also use spider/rings for timing rings if they want something else. Tandem crank arm lengths range from 160mm to 180mm in 5mm increments, black or silver. On the rare occasion, I can also get cranks in different colors, if someone wants to wait.
4 bolt offers mucho choice of chainrings from many sources, as it's currently the standard for mtb rings. 94/58 compact offers lower gearing (20T/30T/40T) lowest for big wheelers, and the old 110/74 gets use on some road and cyclocross apps, but isn't around that much.
I'm leaning more towards ST instead of ISIS because if one of those standards goes away due to BB availability, I suspect it will be ISIS. ISIS is certainly a better platform as far as installation and sensitivity to gorilla-torque overtightening and other garage mechanic deeds, as well as stiffness of the crank/spindle interface, but there are fewer and fewer ISIS bb manufacturers left. ISIS is also slightly tapered, so at some point, even those arms will wear out from being reinstalled.
Since the offset of the spiders is very different for Middleburn's new X-type external bb crankset,I have discussed much with Middleburn on getting us those cranksets in the tandem setup. I still don't have a timeframe, but they're certainly closer to reality, as Middleburn now has the DUO ring/spider available for X-Type, as well as 4 arm and 5 arm Compact Drive spiders. I bug Middleburn about those on a regular basis. I'm guessing that EBB and/or press-fit stuff will be the more common platform very soon.
Sorry for the hijack; this probably should be in the tandem cranks thread...


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Alex, hardly a hi-jack. Besides I started this topic on the ECDM.

The best thing about a spline setup with 3 piece cranks, ISIS or Shimano is that when it's torqued, we have everything tight against something else.

Outboard bearing stuff for tandems is tough, since the left rear arm sets bearing preload, but relies on the pinch bolt to stay tight. It would be a great setup if each crankset was shimmed to an inner crush spacer so that tight is tight.

A recent conversation with FSA had them unofficially recommend cleaning the left splines, and then installing the crank arm with loctite. What a pain in the butt. This is one reason I don't want to reinstall the Gossamers. 

I agree if something goes away it will be ISIS.

So it is possible to get SKF ISIS BB's and ISIS tandem cranksets if needed.

Any chance of talking Middleburn into the road crank market? A 130mm spider with a drilling for a third inner could open a new market to offer a reasonable priced crankset to compete with Davinci, fill a gap left by White Industries, and be a step up from the current Truvative and FSA stuff.

The UNO on the left would save weight, and with just a redesign and production run on spiders they have road cranks. The other huge plus is they can be bought in a lot more length options than FSA or Truvative.

I'm leaning towards there super duper outboard bearing models, polished, with the UNO drives and 130mm drillings.

The same in ISIS could be a close second...

Now only if that Specialized bike with the driveshaft could be made for off-road...

If you want I'll start a crankset topic.

PK


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

I've been noodling a drive shaft setup setup for bicycles in my little head for years. To me, that solves so many issues with current drivetrains. Bicycles are probably the only mechanized vehicle that goes off-road with the drive mechanism exposed to all the nasty stuff we ride thru. Doesn't make sense.
OTOH, drive shafts are not as efficient as chain drive, and every iota of efficiency counts when I'm the motor.
I think SKF may have already ceased production on the ISIS bb's.


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

*Happy Halloween*

Just a way of saying "Hi" to all of you from all of us. Halloween ride at Allamuchy Deer Park in northern NJ 2010.
Ed and Pat Gifford
Brenda and Larry Isherwood
Mike and Caren Bianco
Jay Boesner and Amy Isherwood
Jeff Winick and Wendy Samuelson
Cam and Karen Witt


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

giff07 said:


> Just a way of saying "Hi" to all of you from all of us. Halloween ride at Allamuchy Deer Park in northern NJ 2010.
> Ed and Pat Gifford
> Brenda and Larry Isherwood
> Mike and Caren Bianco
> ...


:thumbsup:

PK


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## ostwandlager (Oct 24, 2010)

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

giff07 said:


> Just a way of saying "Hi" to all of you from all of us. Halloween ride at Allamuchy Deer Park in northern NJ 2010.
> Ed and Pat Gifford
> Brenda and Larry Isherwood
> Mike and Caren Bianco
> ...


Now that there looks like a Ventana el Conquistador de Montanas convention!


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

TandemNut said:


> Now that there looks like a Ventana *e*l *C*onquistador *d*e *M*ontanas convention!


OH!!!!  That's what ECDM stands for...


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Blaster1200 said:


> OH!!!!  That's what ECDM stands for...


No silly

Excellent Control DualSuspension Machine

PK


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## phill77 (Aug 31, 2008)

Here's our new toy










Build spec is in this post New ECDM Build

It has been too cold and icy for me to persuade my wife to ride much, so we have only done 16 miles so far, mainly on little country roads. Because of the wet and muddy winters we have where I am in the UK, it's unlikely to see much off road use until probably april next year.

Thing we like so far are the colour choice, and obviously the comfort and fit.

I'm not sure what pressure is in the rear, but on PP setting 2 we get no significant bobbing on the climbs. On the shops suggestion we have the captains pedals leading by a tooth or two, which may also help with that.

We weigh around 290lb all up. I've got about 80 psi in the forks, which gives me about 25 mm sag.
I won't really know how well the suspension is set up until spring next year, so can't comment on the fork performance yet.

I am a little concerned about captain seat post flex though. It's a 350mm Easton EA70, and is on the minimum insertion limit. When I am manoeuvring the bike about I can see the post visibly flexing. This is being swapped for a 400mm post which I am sure will help.


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Hi Phil,
Wow! thats a really nice Christmas present! We love our ECDM. A word of warning though, the bike inspires so much confidence it makes you want to ride crazy things. I really like your color choice. I would seriously consider replacing the captains seatpost with something longer if its only in to the minimum mark. Two of our friends ripped a captains seatpost in half while riding given a similar situation and that is not pretty. You have more self control than I would be able to muster in waiting until spring to get that beauty all muddy. All the best and a Happy Holiday!
Ed and Pat Gifford
Toms River, NJ USA


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Very nice. 

In regards to that seat post, consider also that the minimum mark is when used only for seating, you now have it doing double duty holding a set of bars.

I too would have a tough time putting that tandem away while waiting for spring.

Maybe while waiting, you could complete the color scheme and get those white lower fork legs paint removed and to a brushed aluminum finish or polished. Regardless though it is a good looking ride.

PK


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## phill77 (Aug 31, 2008)

Thanks for the complements guys! :thumbsup: 

It should have been a longer post, and that's on the way now. I just wondered whether anyone had purposefully fitted a stronger post to the front before.

Polished forks would look really sweet. I think the missus would kill me if I started to take it to bits now though! Thats a job for next winter.

We shall be riding it when it is not snowy and icy, but only locally, so no demanding trails for a while. 

I wonder if I could smuggle it on holiday to the Caribbean with me though...


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

phill77 said:


> I just wondered whether anyone had purposefully fitted a stronger post to the front before.


I have about the same amount of exposed seat post (see above), and fitted a 400mm Thomson specifically due to the consequences of a captain's seat post failure



phill77 said:


> I wonder if I could smuggle it on holiday to the Caribbean with me though...


That's what's got me drooling over an S&S frame.


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## rbtcha (Nov 17, 2007)

Well I have to post just a couple picks here of the original ECDM









and then the new custom that became normal after 6 months 


















This is one heck of a bike if I do say so myself, and I do!


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

A new El Testigo for the New Year?


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> A new El Testigo for the New Year?


Don't think they make el Testigos any more, since you can up the travel on the el Conquistador now.


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## StanleyJ (Dec 11, 2010)

I'd hazard a guess they'll just be listing the 29er version officially?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

StanleyJ said:


> I'd hazard a guess they'll just be listing the 29er version officially?


If you mean they will no longer offer the 26" wheeled bike that would be bad for our team.

We have a 29r hardtail and a 26 FS, some of the stuff we ride, we want the smaller wheels. Plus it is so easy to toss and throw the small wheel bike in technical terrain. Many of the places we ride are not big flowing ribbons of singletrack. Some require you to back the bike in, or sometimes have the stoker quickly dismount, and with the captain holding the rear brake, the stoker will pickup/slide the rear tire around, then remount.

As good as a 29 is, the 26 still has it's place.

PK


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

I'm thinking of converting my El Testigo to 650b wheels. I have tried them and really like them a lot. I used 26" for years, used 29" for a while and the 650b feels like the perfect balance between the two. I"ll have to contact Sherwood to see if the El Bastardo chainstays would work on my bike, since the current stays would not work.


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

PMK said:


> If you mean they will no longer offer the 26" wheeled bike that would be bad for our team.
> 
> We have a 29r hardtail and a 26 FS, some of the stuff we ride, we want the smaller wheels. Plus it is so easy to toss and throw the small wheel bike in technical terrain. Many of the places we ride are not big flowing ribbons of singletrack. Some require you to back the bike in, or sometimes have the stoker quickly dismount, and with the captain holding the rear brake, the stoker will pickup/slide the rear tire around, then remount.
> 
> ...


No, the 26" line will still be in procuction with the addition of the 29" in FS and Hardtail is my understanding.

Along with a host of other refinements in the line.


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## StanleyJ (Dec 11, 2010)

PMK said:


> If you mean they will no longer offer the 26" wheeled bike that would be bad for our team.


I only guessed that they'll list the 29er (in addition) to their 26er tandem... if I think they were to replace it, I would have said replace.  In any case, I wasn't even aware Ventana did their FS MTB tandem in a 29er version until I started reading this forum. What I'd really like is for their S&S version to be available in aluminium rather than steel, though that's more an issue with S&S allowing Santana sole availability on the alu coupling... *sigh*


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## TandemGeek (Mar 14, 2004)

StanleyJ said:


> What I'd really like is for their S&S version to be available in aluminium rather than steel, though that's more an issue with S&S allowing Santana sole availability on the alu coupling... *sigh*


Not true... regarding the aluminum couplers. Santana's original exclusivity only meant that any builder who wanted to use the couplers designed per Santana's specs would need to procure them through Santana... noting Santana will also sell their various brands and blends of tandem tubing to other builders. However, the "exclusive" was a 2-year arrangement, after which anyone could buy the aluminum-frame compatible couplers from S&S.

In talking with other builders, most never saw enough consumer interest and/or just didn't see aluminum's minor weight savings as being a good enough trade-off on the inherent durability and repairability of steel for the rigors of travel tandems.

Of course, the other challenge with using the couplers designed for Santana on a Ventana would be the smaller diameter of the couplers and the challenge of integrating a coupler into Ventana's unbutted tubesets. Frankly, Sherwood made the best call by offering the steel S&S Ventana ECdM and I suspect the steel model handles just as well as the aluminum models where any weight difference is mostly coming from the 3lbs of couplers, not just the frame material... remembering the rear triangle is still aluminum and the fork is whatever anyone might spec for their tandem. Mind you, this is just my armchair analysis based on owning steel and carbon tandems with couplers and some brief discussions long-ago with our friend Jim from the Seattle area who persuaded Sherwood to build the first S&S Ventana.... which grew into the first Ventana ECdM that could be configured as a tandem, triplet, quad or quint. More photos here.










I would note, S&S now has some larger diameter aluminum couplers that were developed as a less-costly alternative to the titanium couplers that were previously the recommended spec. for Calfee's composite frames. But, similar to the Santana coupler issues, anyone wanting to use the aluminum couplers designed for Calfee would have to have similar tubing wall thicknesses, which pretty much rules out aluminum tubesets.


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## TandemGeek (Mar 14, 2004)

Ciclistagonzo said:


> No, the 26" line will still be in procuction with the addition of the 29" in FS and Hardtail is my understanding.


Pretty sure the 29er hardtail's fabricated by Ventana will be limited to Alex Nutt's Fandango brand and design spec. for the foreseeable future.

The F/S 26 and 29 models are standard fare and, yes... we too hear that there will continue to refinements in the ECdM, just as there have been since the prototype was unveiled back t Interbike in the mid-90's.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

I'm accomplishing some routine maintenance on out ECDM.

Curious if any of you have ever disassembled the suspension pivots, then removed the bearings, cleaned and re-greased them.

I'm not too concerned about it. Any tips or pointers beyond using Loctite on clean threads when reassembling? How easy are the bearings removed from the bores?

Also, our linkage rocker is a funky brownish stained color. I spoke to Theresa at Ventana about this a while back and it seems some of the linkage took on this look, while most did not. So I ask, has anyone ever done or seen the two linkage realys polished or anodized another color than black. 

If I can find some play money I was toying with having our red Race Face cranks, the linkage, pivot caps and maybe seat collars, anodized in the color of Fox compression adjuster blue.

Any thoughts? Constructive, not the "you're crazy", that's a given.

PK


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

PMK said:


> I'm accomplishing some routine maintenance on out ECDM.
> 
> Curious if any of you have ever disassembled the suspension pivots, then removed the bearings, cleaned and re-greased them.
> 
> I'm not too concerned about it. Any tips or pointers beyond using Loctite on clean threads when reassembling? How easy are the bearings removed from the bores?PK


I have had the main pivot apart. The whole rear triangle, really. I never did press the bearings from the bores. When my frame was new the main pivot loosened and the bore through the frame got sloppy.. I was horrified! Sherwood made it all right (!!!) and I believe he replaced the bolt in that pivot with non-stainless steel.

In any case, it comes apart and goes back together quite easily -- but I would be very specific with the loctite and torque specs.

I also check for play in the rear triangle before & after each ride. Do not let looseness ruin your frame!



PMK said:


> Also, our linkage rocker is a funky brownish stained color. I spoke to Theresa at Ventana about this a while back and it seems some of the linkage took on this look, while most did not. So I ask, has anyone ever done or seen the two linkage realys polished or anodized another color than black.
> 
> If I can find some play money I was toying with having our red Race Face cranks, the linkage, pivot caps and maybe seat collars, anodized in the color of Fox compression adjuster blue.
> 
> ...


I've seen many anodized items discolor in the sun. My rockers may have weathered a little. As to color cordinating bikes, not really my thing.

But I like smirking at cool pictures of other folks color-coordinated bikes....


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

Here's our 2006 21/16 ECDM.

Marz Jr. T 170mm fork reduced to 130mm
RP23 shock & 5" rockers
SRAM x-9 shifters, x-7 rear der, xt front der.
Middleburn cranks (isis)
Chris King hubs -- 20mm front, "Fun Bolts" rear, SS freehub body
Mavic 521 rims w/Maxxis tubeless rim strips
Hope Mono M4 brakes
Thompson posts and stem

Wheels and front brake are transplants from our old KHS Tandamania. Front brake squeals a bit. I need to try a new rotor. Most of the rest came from MTBTandems.

Only issues have been a couple derailleur hangers. Now using one from derailleurhangers.com I think it may be stiffer. The first couple from Ventana seemed too soft and the derailleur got bumped into the spokes which made a mess of the derailleur.

Mentioned elsewhere, the rear pivot got loose and was not detected soon enough and the rear pivot bore was ovalized. Fixed by Ventana.

Yes, the cranks are slightly out of phase. Joyce felt she couldn't contribute when we were in phase. We tried several different timings before settling on this arrangement.

I would like try the 29er version.... But not in a hurry to buy another one of these!


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

Does anyone know if the 29er ECDM swingarm and seatstays will bolt on to a 2006 "26er" ECDM?

And if so, know of anyone who's tried it?

I can't afford a new frame and fork...


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

reamer41 said:


> Does anyone know if the 29er ECDM swingarm and seatstays will bolt on to a 2006 "26er" ECDM?
> 
> And if so, know of anyone who's tried it?
> 
> I can't afford a new frame and fork...


I think I heard somewhere that they are not compatible. I am also interested in the answer. I also wondered if you could bolt on a El Basardo rear triangle to a ECDM. 650b could be a good compromise (in some cases you can use your 26" fork with 650b).

Please chime in if anyone has knowledge (regarding either 650b or 29" conversion of ECDM).


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

PMK said:


> Curious if any of you have ever disassembled the suspension pivots, then removed the bearings, cleaned and re-greased them.


Disassembled, yes. Removed bearings, no. One thing I would suggest if you've gotten that far is to try to rotate the bearings before reassembling the suspension (this only matters if you aren't pulling the bearings). I noticed when rotating the free bearings that there was a notch in them where they normally move through. They don't wear evenly since they don't rotate in full circles.



PMK said:


> Also, our linkage rocker is a funky brownish stained color.


We also have the brown rockers. Not too obvious, but it is there in the sun if you look.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> I think I heard somewhere that they are not compatible. I am also interested in the answer. I also wondered if you could bolt on a El Basardo rear triangle to a ECDM. 650b could be a good compromise (in some cases you can use your 26" fork with 650b).
> 
> Please chime in if anyone has knowledge (regarding either 650b or 29" conversion of ECDM).


I believe Sherwood posted about this on DF.

PK


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## TandemGeek (Mar 14, 2004)

PMK said:


> I believe Sherwood posted about this on DF.
> 
> PK


He did, back in August



> Our 29" rear end will not fit up to our standard 26" Conquistador. The
> 29er Conquistador is designed from the ground up around the wheels and
> available forks and is markedly different in tube lengths, bb positions
> (relative to axle centerlines), and in geometry than our 26" version.
> ...


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> Disassembled, yes. Removed bearings, no. One thing I would suggest if you've gotten that far is to try to rotate the bearings before reassembling the suspension (this only matters if you aren't pulling the bearings). I noticed when rotating the free bearings that there was a notch in them where they normally move through. They don't wear evenly since they don't rotate in full circles.
> 
> We also have the brown rockers. Not too obvious, but it is there in the sun if you look.


I have not yet pulled the rear suspension apart yet.

Doing some routine maintenance and trying to make it more bombproof.

The looks thing is no big deal, just trying to make it ours.

I dealt with the red cranks by some careful detail work. Being older Race Face stuff with the "I" beam construction, I was able to remove the anodize, expanding from the show worn areas to the pedal mount and almost to the center. Left the rest red.

I believe this was an old school way to keep this style crank looking decent a while longer.

As for the discolored linkage, it looks like treated magnesium, so we should just start telling everybody we have the "factory works bike" magnesium links.

PK


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

TandemGeek said:


> He did, back in August
> 
> Our 29" rear end will not fit up to our standard 26" Conquistador. The
> 29er Conquistador is designed from the ground up around the wheels and
> ...


I guess Sherwood knows what kinds of butchers exist out here....


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

PMK said:


> I have not yet pulled the rear suspension apart yet.
> 
> Doing some routine maintenance and trying to make it more bombproof.
> 
> PK


When pulling the chainstays off, first disconnect the seatstays, then let the dropouts rotate downward. Once dropped about 45 degrees and the main pivot shaft removed the swingarm will come free.

I just recalled a little puzzlement the first time I disassembled mine. The dropouts have to drop a bit.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

This was initially posted in the fork topic, but honestly, it is a good idea of how the rear end moves about on a XC trail.






The trail is Santos Spider Kingdom section, and only a portion of it. Pretty much flat, and any elevation is subtle.

As already noted, you can see the rear end sliding around a bit, plus the tire tossing up debris. We could always feel the bike set for many corners, but odd to see it actually stepping out a bit.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

This is the Santos Vortex Trail. We only captured a portion of it before the small video card ran out of memory.

This place has some very rocky sections, steep short climbs and bench cuts.

We rode most of it, but admit there are a few impassable rock sections for us. Either the bike can not be wheelied up onto the rocks, or the rocks will smash chainrings or the frame, some we just can not squeeze through or around. But a good majority can be ridden on a tandem.

The entire trail is a technical double black diamond with signs that say expert riders only.

Yes there were a few things we dropped into that had me hang on tight.






Jeanne rode awesome and deserves a lot of the credit.

PK


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

Great videos! Watching the suspension and drive train is so nice. Only thing that could make it better is a 2nd cam pointed forward from the same position showing the fork and then splicing the videos together side-by-side.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

PMK said:


> The trail is Santos Spider Kingdom section, and only a portion of it. Pretty much flat, and any elevation is subtle.


That's my kind of trail. Not much of that around us, though. Maybe two miles of trail in a network of 70 miles, and even that has much more elevation than Spider Kingdom. Would also have to fly by the trail sign so my stoker wouldn't see the name


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

A couple of great videos Paul and Jeannie! I think that camera angle gives a much better feel for the trail conditions than higher up and out the front. Santos looks really awesome! We have to get there. It seems similar to our "go to" place to ride up here, Allaire State Park( without the palmettos, of course) Thanks for the videos as we look out the window at 8" of snow still on the ground and haven"t ridden outside for a week.
And of course its nice to see the suspension working in the different situations.
Ed and Pat Gifford 
the Snot Rocket tandem
Toms River, NJ


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## phill77 (Aug 31, 2008)

Cracking videos, it seems easier to appreciate the steepness of sections when you have the static frame tubes to compare to.

Paul, has being able to see the shock work helped you with set-up at all?
I know it's all about feel really, but I get no technical feedback from my wife except 'that hurt!'

We still haven't ridden ours anywhere taxing yet. Everywhere feels really good to me, but I can't believe it will be set up perfect out of the box.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

bme107 said:


> Great videos! Watching the suspension and drive train is so nice. Only thing that could make it better is a 2nd cam pointed forward from the same position showing the fork and then splicing the videos together side-by-side.


Honestly I don't want to get to wrapped up in video editing since it takes a bunch of time. I will say though that I have been asking around about some different software to show multile views simultaneously.

FWIW, each of these videos have corresponding helmet views also.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

giff07 said:


> A couple of great videos Paul and Jeannie! I think that camera angle gives a much better feel for the trail conditions than higher up and out the front. Santos looks really awesome! We have to get there. It seems similar to our "go to" place to ride up here, Allaire State Park( without the palmettos, of course) Thanks for the videos as we look out the window at 8" of snow still on the ground and haven"t ridden outside for a week.
> And of course its nice to see the suspension working in the different situations.
> Ed and Pat Gifford
> the Snot Rocket tandem
> Toms River, NJ


Glad you liked it, sorry to here about the snow minimizing your ride time.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

phill77 said:


> Cracking videos, it seems easier to appreciate the steepness of sections when you have the static frame tubes to compare to.
> 
> Paul, has being able to see the shock work helped you with set-up at all?
> I know it's all about feel really, but I get no technical feedback from my wife except 'that hurt!'
> ...


Yes it is nice to see different views, and how they can emphasize or make subtle the terrain or speed.

Technical feedback, well this was the first weekend of video out the back, so I have not really used it to tune the rear damper further.

Saying that though, I know our bike is very well planted. Watching the rear in action gives me a good visual of why the ATC fork could not match the back.

So far, the greatest benefit to watching these videos is seeing how well our ProPedal settings match our bike, terrain and ability.

I have some portions of the video I did not post, that show some steep drops littered with roots, those have me toying with decreasing the high speed damping a little when I pull it apart. Then again, it is working pretty good back there. Time will tell.

You'll get out soon enough and get dialed in. Just expect to make minor changes as the suspension breaks in.

PK


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## J&L (Oct 20, 2010)

*A New 29er*

After a long wait, we just received a new 29er on Thursday, and had excellent weather this weekend for a couple of rides. Our first tandem, a Trek T900, got us started, but this is so much better. We went out to Alex's in September and test rode the 29" Fandango, 29" ECDM and 26" ECDM. My first impression of the 29ers was that the out and back trail felt downhill both ways. They rolled so smoothly. Side by side, I recall the 26 feeling more maneuverable than the 29, but on the rides this weekend I didn't really notice it, it felt good.

You might have noticed the S&S couplings. As to packing? Too much fun riding to give that a try. But sometime between now and May 13th we will have to do it. We did remove the seats and the 3 middle bars, and it fits into the car quite nicely, took us about 15 minutes the second time we tried. With a little practice and coordination, probably won't take much longer than putting it onto the roof, and for longer drives I think it is better inside the car than on the roof.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

That 29r, coupled in Blue looks pretty nice.

Don't know why, but that fork, not the front fork, but the tube cluster just forward of the Captain seattube is an attention getter.

I assume this was built by Alex and MTBTandems, and curious, are those Hope Brakes, the rear disc looks like it came off a Bugatti Supercar.

Congrats and enjoy. I guess the May reference is a trip to AORTA.

PK


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

Very nice! Is the painted rear triangle standard now, or an option? What size is the frame, 19/16? It's harder to guess, being a 29er. I have the Hope M4s. Other than the older front disk squealing I've never had an issue with them.


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## J&L (Oct 20, 2010)

I'm tall, but short legs and long torso and the S&S is a full custom. The first iteration of the design had a 32" standover. I asked for something a bit lower and Sherwood gave me 29.5" but the fork design appeared. The top tube length is almost 24", limited by the size of the suitcase.

Alex did the build and added the Hope brakes. We started somewhat reasonable, but then one thing led to another, and now we have the Hope Mono 6ti. But we also have lots of long, and sometimes steep downhills. 

And yes, we will be at AORTA.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

*Ecdm 29 S&s*

WOW - nice looking ride!! :thumbsup:

A few questions for you:
1. How do you deal with the brake line when breaking down the bike? I guess I figured that a coupled mtb tandem would use Avid mechanicals with splitters - nice to see hydraulic brakes on it.

2. Do you mind sharing how much does it cost for a 29er S&S frame?

3. Do you know how much it weights?

If we were to get another tandem, I think that an S&S 29er may just be the ticket. Please share your experience when you go to break down the bike completely for travel and let us know how it packs. Do you have 2 S&S cases? Also, I am interested to hear how it works out with airline fees - again please share after your AORTA trip.

Also, if anyone has traveled with an mtb tandem, please share your experience and method of shipping, type of boxes, weight, costs etc. - it could make for an informative forum topic.

Thanks!


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## J&L (Oct 20, 2010)

Regarding the size: what's nice about ordering a bike like this, or really any of MTB Tandem's Ventana's or probably Fandango's is if the stock sizes don't fit, you can adjust any of the dimensions. Granted it costs a bit more, and takes slightly longer to build, but in the end you get something that fits. So comparing our numbers with a 26", it's like a 21/16 with a standover around that of a 17 to 19, and the 29er has 1" higher bottom braket height.

The powder coated rear triangle was an option. Someone else in this forum commented on their order with it as well. I think it looks nice.

We originally started with the Avid's, then Magura, and ended up with the Hope. The brake line came all neatly tie-wrapped. I was initially disappointed as it didn't come disassembleable out of the box. But thought about it, clipped off the tie-wraps and replaced them with Velcro strips. The brake lever just barely passes through the front fork, but fortunately it does. 

As to the cost, depends upon the build. But Alex's initial quote was roughly 2K over the non-S&S build. He says most of the S&S builds use Rohloff hubs, but I did the math and with a 29er, our hills, and my desire for lower gears, I choose the standard setup.

Alex prepared us for a heavy bike, putting the ECDM's around 50lb, going 29 and S&S adding even more. I was expecting mid 50's. But with an all up weight of around 350lb, I figured 1% is 3.5 lb, and we are only riding recreationally that would be OK. So when I weighed it at 52lb ready to ride, I was pleased.

We got 2 26x26x10 cases, which are airplane compliant, 18lb each 52+36lb => gives us 6lb left over for each box. So hopefully there are no additional charges of the standard luggage charge airlines have.


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## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

Great looking bike! As far as the airlines are concerned we travel with our coupled road tandem extensively in S&S cases and have never been charged any additional fees except the normal baggage fees. They just see them as large suitcases as long as they weigh less then 50 lbs each. It may be the only option soon as last year Delta Airlines says they no longer will ship tandems on the flights. BTW does anyone know if a 26 17/14 will fit in a regular Bike Pro tandem case? We probably won't travel with it much but I need to ship from Calif and if it fits in a case, that would work well and then we could travel with it when needed.
Enjoy your new ride.
Mark


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

J&L said:


> We got 2 26x26x10 cases, which are airplane compliant, 18lb each 52+36lb => gives us 6lb left over for each box. So hopefully there are no additional charges of the standard luggage charge airlines have.


Heh heh....

So, does a 29er wheel fit in a 26x26 case?


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## J&L (Oct 20, 2010)

With the tires off they will.


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## mgreene (Jul 7, 2010)

Hey everyone:

Wanted to say a quick hello. I found this forum and read through a bunch of threads…great stuff! 

We have an old ECDM that I built while living in So Cal and working in a bike shop many moons ago. It literally was not ridden for most of the last decade. Sad really, but I just couldn’t part with it and I am glad I didn’t.

Anyway my wife and I started are getting back into biking after about a 10 year hiatus. I picked up a new 29r single and a couple of road bikes for us last year and we are loving it. Looking forward to riding more and more. I am hoping that we will get back to tandem riding this next season. Although my wife is hinting that she would rather stick to the road, we’ll see what the year brings. 

About the ECDM: Old style frame (pre-2005 from what I gather from this site) with the shock on the top tube; Chris King headset, Azonic bars, titec seat posts, control tech stems, White Industry cranks and bottom bracket (I believe), Sun Rhynolite Rims with XT hubs, V-brakes, XT rear and sachs front derailleurs, and an old shock that I had laying around when I was building it (think it was an RST that I took apart and replaced the elastomers with springs worked fine at the time with my and the shop mechanic riding off road). Might look to replace the shock and upgrade a few other parts if/when we start riding more.

Anyway, just wanted to say hey.

I’ll try to post up some pics sometime.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

*New ECdM, it's quintuple-jointed*

We picked up our new S&S ECdM Saturday from Ventana. As always, wonderful service, as Teresa drove out to the office on the weekend to allow us to pick up the bike. We even got the tour, and the inside-scoop on the changes for the tandem.

To answer some of ds2199's questions, the S&S 26" ECdM retails for $4700. That is ~$1500 more than the 26" non-S&S frame, but includes two cases, cable splitters, wrenches, and padding. We still have to plan out how the padding will work, so I have not built the frame yet. Regarding weight, it is quite a bit heavier than our aluminum frame. Ventana quotes 3-4 pounds increase for the 17/16, but each of the 2" couplers (two on our bike) are 3/4lb each, and there are three smaller couplers also. In any case, the front section weighs 3 pounds, the middle weighs 6.3 pounds, and the rear section comes in at 7.2 pounds including shock. Total frame weight including shock is ~16.5lb. Unfortunately I did not weight my aluminum frame before I sent it off to its new owner.

In any case, I'll post a teaser picture and will follow up with the complete bike in a day or few.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Pretty Sporty, just like when the other one came back.

I must ask though...see you went back to blue, and it's looks on the mark, but why not red?

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> We even got the tour, and the inside-scoop on the changes for the tandem.


If you are talking about the big wait until the end of the month for the 2011 release info, there is some serious speculation.

Not getting caught up in, my 10 cents would at least like to see a left side linkage with a redesigned profile to allow easier pressure setting changes. Not a big deal, more an inconvenience.

Knowing the suspension points are very well optimized, at least for how we have abused our bike, I wonder if a new design swingarm is coming along with a beefed up frame fitting where the swingarm is attached.. The drop down behind the pivot and lightness of the frame fitting may be a point of some of the rear wag some have noticed in the rear shot videos. The bike is so long these are not realy noticed when riding, so NBD.

We have no immediate plans to buy a new ECDM. When we do, I'm pretty certain I'll have them build us a custom with a three tube cluster at the headtube for a front triangle section that is even more torsionally stiff.

PK


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

PMK said:


> Not getting caught up in, my 10 cents would at least like to see a left side linkage with a redesigned profile to allow easier pressure setting changes. Not a big deal, more an inconvenience.
> 
> PK


I bought a little "noodle" that swaps for the standard filler on the Fox. Seemed a little pricy at 20 or 25 bucks, but the convenience it has brought has made it more than worth it.
I got it from that tuning shop in Colorado....


-Charlie


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

PMK said:


> Pretty Sporty, just like when the other one came back.
> 
> I must ask though...see you went back to blue, and it's looks on the mark, but why not red?


Ferrari Red was the captain's choice and a surprise for the stoker. This blue was the stoker's choice and a surprise for the captain. Each time we both narrowed the choices to a few and let the other pick.

I'm not a fan of the metallic colors, so the first change from Cosmic Blue to FR was as much because of the lack of metallic as the ability to change color due to the repair. Both of us really like blue as a color, though, and while we really liked FR, this blue is even better.

FWIW, the RP23 we got on our bike has the pressure valve facing the same direction as the PP lever, just pointing to the right ~20°. I can get to it without interference by the rocker. AFAIK it is the 2011 part, since that's what is on the cover of the very thick but essentially useless Fox "Owner's Manual." Dunno if the pressure valve location is new for 2011.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> Ferrari Red was the captain's choice and a surprise for the stoker. This blue was the stoker's choice and a surprise for the captain. Each time we both narrowed the choices to a few and let the other pick.
> 
> I'm not a fan of the metallic colors, so the first change from Cosmic Blue to FR was as much because of the lack of metallic as the ability to change color due to the repair. Both of us really like blue as a color, though, and while we really liked FR, this blue is even better.
> 
> FWIW, the RP23 we got on our bike has the pressure valve facing the same direction as the PP lever, just pointing to the right ~20°. I can get to it without interference by the rocker. AFAIK it is the 2011 part, since that's what is on the cover of the very thick but essentially useless Fox "Owner's Manual." Dunno if the pressure valve location is new for 2011.


That Blue is really nice. I'm excited to see the entire bike built. It will be a great bike.

Yes Fox has changed the valve location, it may have changed in 2010. Again, it's a minimal thing, but I can hope.

Can I ask where your Red frame went. Hopefully another Florida Tandem

PK


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## zibell (Apr 13, 2007)

Julian, 
That is a beautiful frame. we'll need to get together for a ride after you get it built. We met up with Bill & Nancy a couple of weekends ago. Maybe we could set up something at Sycamore for a group ride? 
I thought your bike was larger than a 17/16? 
Keep us posted on the build.

Pz


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## StanleyJ (Dec 11, 2010)

I guess this refresh will apply across the board (from singles to tandems):
:thumbsup:


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

StanleyJ said:


> I guess this refresh will apply across the board (from singles to tandems):
> :thumbsup:


We can hope, dream and wish, but don't hold your breath for all of it.

Off the top, no one makes BB30 tandem cranks.

I assume this will be like dirt bikes. The race bikes get the upgrades year one, the woods bikes get the majority of upgrades the next year.

Purely speculation, so like others I'm just waiting too.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Somehow I stumbled upon this tool kit and knowing the pivot bearings should probably be regreased I had Alex get one for me.

https://www.ventanausa.com/images/Bearingpresstool.jpg

Haven't tried it yet but should make easy work with no damage.

I'm hoping my regreasers will fit the bearing to make it really easy.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/acsregreaser.php

Time will tell.

PK


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## StanleyJ (Dec 11, 2010)

PMK said:


> We can hope, dream and wish, but don't hold your breath for all of it.
> 
> Off the top, no one makes BB30 tandem cranks.
> 
> ...


Very true, though on the BB30 stuff, doesn't Phil Wood make a square tapered axle to fit into BB30 bearings?

Also, considering the cost of tandem specific cranksets, there probably isn't much difference in getting extra regular cranksets and stick some helicoils into the crank arms where appropriate (or use reversed pedal axles) if one must use cross-over drive.

I'd personally would just spec a Rohloff anyway, so could run a tandem fully right-hand drive without having to jump through hoops, AFAIK.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

:idea: BB30, with right side drive, with a Rohloff

Not inexpensive, but possible, have to run a chain tensioner to allow suspension movement though.

So a BB30, right side drive, Rohloff, ECDM, with the listed changes to rear suspension, tube lengths, seatpost diameters and so on, interesting idea.

As for the helicoil trick, never done it but know it will work. I've been looking and it's becoming more difficult to locate three sets of matching cranks to make one tandem set.

My search has been for Race Face ISIS stuff. I'd don't mind the Shimano stuff, but XT grade BB's are no longer made, LX can be gotten in some sizes.

Luckily at the moment we are good on "real" tandem cranksets. But as I keep an eye out for converting single bike stuff, it just seems more cost effective to go with Middleburn and be done.

Staying focused on the new 2011 ECDM's, I would love to see and hope Sherwood makes the changes as applicable to the ECDM. Still though, for us, if we buy a new ECDM, I'm pretty certain she'll be custom.

Thing is, these bikes truly fall into the "it's not the arrow it's the indian" rule. Yes we made some big upgrades to our suspension, mainly based on finding the limits of the tires grip. Even as full on as it is now, our 100% is not yet at the bikes 100% and I suspect that we might not fare well when either hits 101%. Unless there is a real need, (Al & Jan) our last 10% is saved for TP moments, 1% more is for bandaids.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

I asked about the tandem changes and Teresa mentioned going to three standard sizes, the bigger seat post size, tapered head tube, and some other stuff. Didn't seem major, but I am glad I got our S&S before the changes simply from a "reuse 100% of my parts" point of view. If I ever need a tapered head tube, I'm sure I'll be able to get it R&Red.

Finally got the bike together and, I think, dialed in for its initial ride tomorrow.

Strangely, while the bare frame felt much heavier than the aluminum frame, the complete bike doesn't feel much heavier than the complete aluminum bike. Back to Ventana's 3-4 pound gain estimate and despite early concerns, I doubt I'll feel it on the trail.

Patrick, we are always up for a group ride, all the more-so in Sycamore. I think Bill and Nancy will enjoy the city-to-the-sea route. Weather seems to be holding well, and the trails are in great condition at the moment.

Paul, the frame went to New York, unfortunately.


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## J&L (Oct 20, 2010)

What are your thoughts about using something like Frame Saver? Looking into the tubes of our new S&S you can already see some signs of oxidation.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

I hadn't even thought about it. Alex would probably be the best data point for this, though I can send an e-mail to Teresa to get Ventana's take. While there's a big difference between oxidation, surface corrosion, and major rust, we're looking at our new frame as our frame for the next 20 years.


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## J&L (Oct 20, 2010)

Expensive frames oxidize. Other frames rust. But after 20 yrs, I bet it's all the same.

I asked Alex and he said he didn't think they were treated. There seemed to be many postings on other forums recommending it. But after spending the past week applying it I wonder. On the tubes that I can see in, it is a very thin coating and will probably do the job. Also I got to watch how the fluid flows. On the tubes you cannot see inside of, I really wonder how complete a coating people really do?

If it is something really useful, Ventana or Alex could offer it as a value added option. It would certainly be worth it, as it was somewhat time consuming. Plus with experience, I bet they would do a better job than us "firsttimers" would do.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

StanleyJ said:


> I guess this refresh will apply across the board (from singles to tandems):
> :thumbsup:


While riding today, I wondered if anyone makes 30.9 stoker stems or if these will be a Ventana manufactured item.

Current size is 27.2

Our Co-Mo is I believe 29.8 or 28.9 so I wonder who offers these stems.

28.6 is 1 1/8 so standard stuff is a no go,

31.8 is 1 1/4.

Control Tech only shows 29.8 or 31.6, so I guess it's control tech with a shim of 30.9 to 31.6. .7mm total or .35mm on radius, so cut a soda or beer can with scissors and see how close she comes.

Not sure what a Santana size is, but doubt it's 30.9.

I don't know if RE will do a mountain stoker stem.

PK


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## abikerider (May 8, 2007)

Our steel Burley Rumba S&S coupled road tandem was starting to rust inside after a very wet Hawaii trip. After that I used the framesaver stuff on it. Of course, it was much easier to apply on an S&S coupled frame. I've started using it on our steel single bikes because of that. I haven't noticed any corrosion in our aluminum framed bikes so I haven't bothered to treat any of them. I was thinking of drilling drainage holes in the bottom brackets though.


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## StanleyJ (Dec 11, 2010)

PMK said:


> While riding today, I wondered if anyone makes 30.9 stoker stems or if these will be a Ventana manufactured item.


More conjecture... 

I think it would be safe to assume that the 30.9 seattube on solo FS frames would be to allow the use of dropper seatposts.

Could they apply to Ventana FS tandems? I know for a fact they'd be handy around my neck of the woods. If indeed FS tandems will at some point allow this, there'll have to be some other way to attach a stoker stem, where the most common solution seems to be some form of dummy steerer...


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

StanleyJ said:


> More conjecture...
> 
> I think it would be safe to assume that the 30.9 seattube on solo FS frames would be to allow the use of dropper seatposts.
> 
> Could they apply to Ventana FS tandems? I know for a fact they'd be handy around my neck of the woods. If indeed FS tandems will at some point allow this, there'll have to be some other way to attach a stoker stem, where the most common solution seems to be some form of dummy steerer...


Yes conjecture...

The larger seatpost would also be a compliment to the aluminum frame.

I forgot about those droppers seatposts...where we live and ride they fell off the map around 1992. Seems they are making a come back in some parts of the country / world though.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> I asked about the tandem changes and Teresa mentioned going to three standard sizes, the bigger seat post size, tapered head tube, and some other stuff.
> 
> Paul, the frame went to New York, unfortunately.


Cool the frame went to the Northeast, that area has quite a following or leading depending upon how strong a team they are of tandems, both dirty and polished.

Maybe Ed knows the new owner.

PK


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Hi Paul,
I don't know of any new MTB tandem users here but we are just beginning to see bare ground so we may actually get on the trails within a week or two. We have been using the Ventana on the road locally as our Co Mo road tandem is a steel frame and don't want to expose it to all the stuff they put down for ice and snow.
Ed


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

I understood from Teresa that the tandem seatpost size would stay at 27.2mm. Some sizing tweaks are about the only change for ECDM's, unless I didn't get the whole story...


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

In my defence Alex, we were picking up our new frame and so I may not have been paying strict attention to the changes in the new frames. I did ask, but then started staring around the Ventana shop during her reply.

First ride occured yesterday and other than some additional weight noticed when lifting the bike in/out of the truck, or lifting the rear to swing it around when not riding, neither I or my stoker noticed any real difference with the bike in motion. That opinion may change as we get more miles on it, but there wasn't obvious flex (ala our Burley road tandem) or weight issues. Still some sloppy conditions in Malibu Creek State Park, but the e-tape on the lower-front coupler was all that was needed. The 2011 RP23 seems to want 10-15psi more than our '06 RP2.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

The obvious thing is none of the changes matter until we really know, but like so many other surprises in life, it's fun to just wonder


Could not tell from the photos, but does the new frame have a small air sleeve or large?

You obviously did not mention the pressure increase to the stoker. Just kidding.

PK


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Paul, is there an easy way to determine the air sleeve size? It is definitely bigger than my RP2, but I haven't kept up with the changes between the production of our old shock and the 2011 version.

When asked, stoker mentioned things felt a little softer, but she didn't feel it enough to volunteer that info. If this time is like last time, I'll adjust it until she doesn't have a comment beyond "it works fine."  

I did have a couple loose-ish couplers after the ride. The S&S wrenches say to check the tightness before every ride. I guess they're not kidding. If they continue to loosen I may end up packing a spare wrench, just in case. Blue Loctite is also an option, as a thread-locker. Might also help with dust incursion, but I'd check with S&S to see. Stainless is fine with Loctite, but the couplers aren't exactly something I can replace at a whim.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> Paul, is there an easy way to determine the air sleeve size? It is definitely bigger than my RP2, but I haven't kept up with the changes between the production of our old shock and the 2011 version.
> 
> When asked, stoker mentioned things felt a little softer, but she didn't feel it enough to volunteer that info. If this time is like last time, I'll adjust it until she doesn't have a comment beyond "it works fine."
> 
> I did have a couple loose-ish couplers after the ride. The S&S wrenches say to check the tightness before every ride. I guess they're not kidding. If they continue to loosen I may end up packing a spare wrench, just in case. Blue Loctite is also an option, as a thread-locker. Might also help with dust incursion, but I'd check with S&S to see. Stainless is fine with Loctite, but the couplers aren't exactly something I can replace at a whim.


I would be very careful with Loctite on that much surface area of threads and those small wrenching flats. Personally, I would tighten to your preferred amount, then using some red nail polish, paint a couple of witness marks across the couplers. This will allow you to "see" if the coupler unwound or is just seating further.

On a side note. Had it been the size large, or for that matter if it had fit us, we would have bought my friends 2010 Co-Motion Periscope 26" wheel Co-Pilot (coupled) travel tandem. I had the bike at home for a few days to let us test it and while I did not tear it down, I noticed those hook spanner notches are not very deep.

FWIW, stainless is also one of the materials that likes to seize or cold weld itself, especially to other materials. Your being meticulous about keeping the joints clean is good and based on you keeping this thing 20 years I would not be stingy with coupler lube.

FWIW, we have not owned a coupled bike. All my experience has been on the Co-Mo, and few that were in my friends shop. The ones in the shop were customer bikes that had gotten tough to get apart.

Now, about that air sleeve. I had heard, but have not seen, that Fox went to a larger volume air sleeve on the RP's. A photo would be nice and make things simple. The DHX style air sleeve will interchange with our RP and the RP's will fit a DHX.

You have the correct attitude about the pressure, find what works to establish good sag or preload (base pressure), the amount of air volume has a lot to do with how the bike feels when ridden. The air volume must also work in harmony with the chassis's linkage. While not always an easy change, the air volume is another possible tuning tool. Light teams and especially lighter stokers will most often prefer a greater air volume allowing full use of the suspensions travel but also providing a more firm initial air spring rate. The same team on a small air volume would run less initial pressure, giving a more compliant ride while still using all available travel.

FWIW, 99.9% of the folks riding airshox just pump it to some book pressure or a sag that feels good and let it rip. For us, when the tandem wallows around, it takes a lot of effort to ride it and riding fast is less possible.

Often, the larger air sleeves they will not be tapered to a smaller diameter near the PP lever end of the shock assembly. Small air sleeves will taper down.

PK


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

Okayfine said:


> Paul, is there an easy way to determine the air sleeve size? It is definitely bigger than my RP2, but I haven't kept up with the changes between the production of our old shock and the 2011 version.
> 
> .


That is the new stock "small" air can. Or as Fox calls it, Regular Air Can. Same size as on my ECDM. The new RP23 run larger cans across the board and do require slighly higher PSI, found that to be true on my single bikes as well.

Okay, are you in the Bay Area?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Ciclistagonzo

Any chance you could post your tandem ride photos from the Ventana section. Pretty cool.

PK


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

We are in Southern California, specifically the Thousand Oaks area. 'Bout 5 hours south of SF/SJ and the like.

Paul, I've attached a picture of our RP23. In looking at pictures, the air sleeve is a larger volume than our ~'06 RP2, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

We are a ~350lb team plus gear and bike. I had kept ~170psi in the RP2 with PP on and 5 clicks of clockwise rebound from full CCW. Will be attempting 10psi increases in air pressure until stoker agrees it is better.

Unfortunately for us I just confirmed with my stoker that the AORTA dates won't play nice with her job as a school teacher (and the time it'd take to fly from CA in order to ride all three days). So we'll miss your suspension class. And the other 29 teams.


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

PMK said:


> Ciclistagonzo
> 
> Any chance you could post your tandem ride photos from the Ventana section. Pretty cool.
> 
> PK


Ah you're making me blush!  :thumbsup: And here they are:

My 8 yr old Son and I approaching the biggest Obstacle of the day,


1/2 way thru it, I love the look on my son's Face.



But we were tame compared to what Sherwood does with his youngest:




And then they did even steeper...




Now that temps are getting a wee bit warmer, hoping to get the kiddos out more to ride.


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

Okayfine said:


> We are in Southern California, specifically the Thousand Oaks area. 'Bout 5 hours south of SF/SJ and the like.


Gotcha, I thought you might be closer since I noticed you mentioned picking up the frame directly from V and getting the tour.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Great photos. When you look closer, the stokers add so much. Your son in photo 2 has the wow face happening.

Sherwoods son is obviously hamming it up in one photo, but is curious and looking around dad before the drop in.

Great photos but more important, you two had the experience of a hopefully a great time. Possibly one of the main reason to ride a tandem.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> We are in Southern California, specifically the Thousand Oaks area. 'Bout 5 hours south of SF/SJ and the like.
> 
> Paul, I've attached a picture of our RP23. In looking at pictures, the air sleeve is a larger volume than our ~'06 RP2, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
> 
> ...


One of these newer RP23 higher volume rear dampers was dropped off for a rebuild last night. It is slightly shorter than the tandems, but I give it a close look and see if I can find where the volume was added and if it could easily have the volume altered as a tuning aid.

Don't get worked up over missing the little suspension dealio, I am more bummed you won't be there riding.

Any chance of you shipping the bike ahead, then take one day off (Friday so you two could catch a late Thursday flight, then head out for an afternoon flight Sunday). Makes it a bit tight and hectic, but from my personal experience last year, getting there was beyond a challenge, but we had a great time all said and done.

Our way cool granddaughter decided to arrive early and totally altered our travel arrangements. That was one trip I pushed until I had no more and the body said you will sleep NOW.

PK


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

PMK said:


> Great photos. When you look closer, the stokers add so much. Your son in photo 2 has the wow face happening.
> 
> Sherwoods son is obviously hamming it up in one photo, but is curious and looking around dad before the drop in.
> 
> ...


Great time was had for sure. My son's Wow face made my day, He says after, "You can ride down big rocks?" my reply, yup and bigger, and the tandem can get down bigger and steeper stuff than a single bike. My son "Cool",

Sherwood's son is a littler ripper already, following Dad will only make him faster. I like going out with them, since my kids pick up tips by watching Alex (Sherwood's son).


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Just built...


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

*fork?*

Is that the White Loop? I didn't know that they were going to "tandem" that one. They keep trying to talk me into a modified DH fork.


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Is that headed to New York by chance?????????????????????????
Ed and Pat Gifford


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## Team Breeze - Screamcycle (Jun 26, 2010)

Looks like the pic Jeff & Wendy sent us this weekend.!!!!.....they said they are anxious to use it on the PA & VT trails trips this year. .....they always did sooo good...now they should really rock & roll on the trails...& have a bit more comfort on this bike!
:thumbsup:


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

TandemNut said:


> Just built...


Alex - tell us about that fork please.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> Alex - tell us about that fork please.


White Bros Magic 100T 29'er single crown. Very similar internals to the M100T dual crown version, slightly smaller air chamber. More bushing overlap than the DC actually. Very beefy crown structure, same 20mm dropouts, same IMV setup. Heavilty butted steer tube.
Uncut weight of the SC is about 8oz + - less than the DC. (haven't weighed cut bersions yet. Suitable for lighter teams. .
We are looking for a tapered steerer version later this year as well.
Finally, another 29'er option.
Maybe this needs a new thread. I'll get some more photos and some ride feedback soon.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Just built...


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## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

Through the help of some members of this forum we bought a used EDCM in Jan in California and just last weekend we flew down to pick it up and get our first ride. We picked a very bad weekend due to extreme rains but did manage to get one ride in, which was very wet and very cold. The good news was we loved the bike and my wife who was skeptical of a mtn tandem had a blast. She is a very strong single bike rider and has enjoyed the road tandem but felt no need for a mtn one but is now convinced and is looking forward to captaining it with our daughter and daughter inlaws. I found the handling to be very forgiving and much like our singles just a little longer. Now that it is home we will fine tune the suspension to match our weight and conditions here in Alaska. thanks to all for the help
Mark


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## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

In order to get our bike home I built a custom travel case that we can now use to haul the mtn tandem to events. It was built to meet the dimensions allowed by the airlines. It has wheels on the bottom to allow eay movement thru airports etc. It weights 39 lbs so with the bike it is just under 100lbs. Alaska Airlines charged us $50 to take it as a piece of luggage, in fact we brought 3 tandems home for $50 each (bike pro case and pro pedal case and the custom case). We love Alaska Airlines as they still belief in customer service and get all of our business.
Enjoy
Mark


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Can you provide some details on what material you used and how you built that box? That's very cool.
Glad to hear at least some arilines remember who pays the bills. Our hometown airline has completely forgotten.


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## TheBrick (Dec 8, 2008)

Is that corrugated plastic?


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## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

The material is called Corocel made by the same company as Coroplast that is corrugated. The material I used is solid 1/4 inch thickness. I could not find the corrugated in the right thickness in San Francisco in the short time I was there or I probably would have used it. The solid material is very easy to "glue" they call it chemical welding with a pvc glue they sell for it that bonds it essentially instantly. We used butt joints with small pieces of the material bonded on the insides of the corners for reinforcement. I added some Aluminum angles on the corners for extra security but it probably wasn't necessary. The material is very easy to cut and I used a table saw to make all the cuts. The bike flew from San Fran to Anchorage with one plane change and showed no effects on the box. TSA inspected it and did not put the straps on as tight as I did so next time I am going to rivet the straps in place so they only have to reattach the buckles. I used 2 4x8 sheets and the in inner box is 72x28x10 inches and the outer box fits snugly over it. We lined it with firm foam and used pipe insulation to cover the paint and protect parts. It took about 20 minutes to take the bike apart and pack it and a little longer to put it back together. I marked the fork with a sharpie to make reinstalling easier. I think it will work for many trips. I added webbing straps on the ends and small casters to make travel in the airports easier. It is relatively water tight so I had no problem strapping the whole box directly to the roof rack of the rental car. We had two road tandems and our luggage inside and the mtn tandem on top in a Toyota Rav 4. We were very surprised it all fit. If you used the corrugated material you could make folds instead and use box rivets to secure the folds. It would have been easier with only a few cuts and maybe a few lbs lighter. I am not sure about durability of the corrugated plastic but probably more then adequate. I just couldn't bring myself to use a cardboard box and I know we will travel with it so I went ahead and made the travel box. We are already planning to do the White rim trail in Utah this October with it.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

akexpress said:


> The material is called Corocel made by the same company as Coroplast that is corrugated. The material I used is solid 1/4 inch thickness. I could not find the corrugated in the right thickness in San Francisco in the short time I was there or I probably would have used it. The solid material is very easy to "glue" they call it chemical welding with a pvc glue they sell for it that bonds it essentially instantly. We used butt joints with small pieces of the material bonded on the insides of the corners for reinforcement. I added some Aluminum angles on the corners for extra security but it probably wasn't necessary. The material is very easy to cut and I used a table saw to make all the cuts. The bike flew from San Fran to Anchorage with one plane change and showed no effects on the box. TSA inspected it and did not put the straps on as tight as I did so next time I am going to rivet the straps in place so they only have to reattach the buckles. I used 2 4x8 sheets and the in inner box is 72x28x10 inches and the outer box fits snugly over it. We lined it with firm foam and used pipe insulation to cover the paint and protect parts. It took about 20 minutes to take the bike apart and pack it and a little longer to put it back together. I marked the fork with a sharpie to make reinstalling easier. I think it will work for many trips. I added webbing straps on the ends and small casters to make travel in the airports easier. It is relatively water tight so I had no problem strapping the whole box directly to the roof rack of the rental car. We had two road tandems and our luggage inside and the mtn tandem on top in a Toyota Rav 4. We were very surprised it all fit. If you used the corrugated material you could make folds instead and use box rivets to secure the folds. It would have been easier with only a few cuts and maybe a few lbs lighter. I am not sure about durability of the corrugated plastic but probably more then adequate. I just couldn't bring myself to use a cardboard box and I know we will travel with it so I went ahead and made the travel box. We are already planning to do the White rim trail in Utah this October with it.


Very interesting... I like this design. More pictures please! 

Also, White Rim in Ocotober??? Are you doing this with a tour? How many days? I suppose these questions can be answered off list so as to not derail thread..

Thanks!


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## Marco83333 (Jul 6, 2009)

Here's our ECDM on a memorable Idaho day with my Son.
I thought I'd better post it before it's gone as sadly we are selling it.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Just realized in all the 11 years we've been building Ventanas, we've never put a black ECDM together. Must say, it looks very cool:
This one's headed to South Africa. Notice the revised frame geometry for increased standover (this is a 19/16 size). Longer captain's compartment is part of the tweak. Not visible is the tapered 44mm/56mm inset head tube. Very cool, clean setup that allows for more fork options, and an adjustable head angle with a CC AngleSet. Only Sherwood and Ventana could improve on the ECDM, and I think he's outdone himself with the new version...We'll have a couple of demos in the fleet later this month (once we decide on colors). Looking forward to getting some time on the revised frame.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

TandemNut said:


> Only Sherwood and Ventana could improve on the ECDM, and I think he's outdone himself with the new version...We'll have a couple of demos in the fleet later this month (once we decide on colors). Looking forward to getting some time on the revised frame.


Heck with colors...Get them to polish one.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

giff07 said:


> Hi All,
> Here are some pics of the skid plate. I need to start out by saying this is not my invention but that of my riding buddy Larry Isherwood. It is a piece of PVC piping but it isn't your Home Depot Sched. 40. It is very thin walled. I think the size is 3". We used to have a piping for sewer drain/DWV that was like this but the building codes have changed and now its all Sched. 40. The closest thing I could find was piping for an in home vacuum system and I couldn't find it locally. Larry found another small piece of this piping at work and made one for us as a gift for our new ECDM.( Thanks again, Lar) The material inside is thin foam weather stripping. Larry cut it by hand with a mini hacksaw and blade but I think a Dremil tool would do the job. You will notice the notch at one end. This is for chain and granny gear clearance. Also a series of drain holes were drilled in the bottom on centerline. It is cut so it fits snugly around the boom tube and would probably be OK like that but we use high voltage electrical tape that sticks only to itself to secure it at both ends. It leaves no glue residue on the finish.We have scraped over some obstacles and this takes the worry out of damaging your paint/powder coat finish. I put the color matched flames on just to add a personal touch.
> Please post any other inventions of this nature so we can all share our wisdom.
> Ed Gifford
> Toms River, NJ


During AORTA 2011, I got a look at this glide plate on the Snot Rocket. For months I have been kicking myself about not buying some 6/4 titanium tubing to fabricate a glide plate from.

Using up a favor, I may have sourced the entirely wrong material but will afford high cool factor in that I hope to build a glide plate from some 12k carbon. Stay tuned. Now to go find a tube to convert into a mold.

I'm finally stepping up after a near miss with a huge rock at AORTA 2011 while descending the trail from the mountain top with the drop offs like stairs. We hit the captains chainring as we dropped off. Suffice to say we carried the pulverized rock on the chain to the bottom. Slightly faster and it would have really gotten the lower tube.

Stay tuned.

This is worthwhile to save your frame if you attempt silly stuff. Larry and Brendas Fandango shot on the MTBTandems homepage is good evidence.

PK


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## rbtcha (Nov 17, 2007)

*ECDM and John Wayne*

So I know I don't get on here and post a lot, or even as much as I should, but I was trolling around the web and decided to check rates at the Apache Motel in Moab, Ut. I thought that there might be a chance to get away for a couple days with the C-ECDM and found this pic on their main page.









I would say that John (stoker) and I are in pretty good company there and they are a Tandem Friendly place to stay.:thumbsup:


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

*ECDM 29er reviews?*

Anyone care to share their experience with their full suspension 29" wheeled tandem? Please


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

Looking for a good excuse?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> Anyone care to share their experience with their full suspension 29" wheeled tandem? Please


West Coast Bike...:thumbsup:

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Trails4Two said:


> Looking for a good excuse?


I'm not sure that I need an "excuse", but would like some real world feedback. On paper, I'm sold on the 29er platform for tandem use. The Fandango just plain rocks!

So now it is just a decision as to how long before we trade up the 26" ECDM for the 29". That said, I would like to hear from someone who has ridden the Full Squish Big Wheeled bike.


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## J&L (Oct 20, 2010)

We love our 29" ECDM, although we are not the most aggressive riders out there. Been to Sedona and dealt with small rock steps w/o problem. Here in Northern CA we have lots of large washed out ruts in trails. Been thankful for the suspension it really absorbs the impacts.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

J&L, where in NorCal? We frequent the upper state on vacations, though we mostly stick to the coast areas from Point Reyes upward. Always looking for good trails up there and new people to ride with.


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## J&L (Oct 20, 2010)

Okayfine - I started a Northern Cal thread so as not to hijack this one.


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

How about a 650b tandem. My El Testigo looks like it has the clearence, I'll have to see it it would work.


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> How about a 650b tandem. My El Testigo looks like it has the clearence, I'll have to see it it would work.


As a 650B fan, and owner. (Custom Chiquillo 650B hardtail), I checked into that and if your Testigo has the adjustable dropouts you can. On my Bruja (V1) I could just clear in the middle setting and easily cleared in the longest seatstay setting.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Hurricane Jeff said:


> How about a 650b tandem. My El Testigo looks like it has the clearence, I'll have to see it it would work.


We have no intention currently to go 650, but curious if you tried this yet and how it worked for you.

This may seem a dumb question, but what ultimate gain are you expecting, obviously better rolling, somehow though this seems a bit moot on some of these heavy bikes. Guessing you would buy a 29 ECDM if possible?

Not knocking the idea or condemning it, just more curious to see if the effort will be worthy to the results.

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

*Ecdm 29*

We finally received the rest of out parts and as a result, now have a complete bike.

Here's the lowdown:
Ventana ECDM 29 frame carbon black (17/16) 145 rear spacing
SRAM XO 3x10
Maura MT4 brakes
Chris King hubs (36h) laced to Velocity P35 rims
Fox 34 Talas fork
DaVinci cranks (anodized black) 22-32-44
Phil Wood BBs
11/36 cassette 
Happy to say that it came in under 43 lbs :thumbsup: (ready to ride, including pedals)

In case you are really paying attention, You may notice the rear brake is an Avid BB7, it's temporary, until I get a longer brake line for the Magura.

Only been on two rides so far, but we're already digging the new bike. I'll follow up with a full review, but it may have to wait until spring. We'll see if the weather cooperates...

Here's a couple of pics

From ECDM 29

From ECDM 29


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

I would have expected no less. Very nice.

145mm rear for wheel interchangeability with the Fandango?

Again very nice.

Is it fast?

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

PMK said:


> I would have expected no less. Very nice.
> 
> 145mm rear for wheel interchangeability with the Fandango?
> 
> ...


Thanks PK!

145 for added strength on the 29" wheel.

Fast as we can pedal it! Which is relatively slow these days.

I need to ride the Fandango back to back with the ECDM to get a good perspective. But I think the black bike will become our "go to" bike, especially on the rougher trails.


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## malaclemys (Oct 22, 2010)

I hate to ask but is the fork tandem rated? It looks like it has the Kashima coating. Fifteen millimeter through axle?

Very sweet build.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Jamie, FWIW, NO Fox fork is tandem rated. They are quite explicit in their warranty statement. 

On that build, with xc as the goal, Jeanne and I, would run that thing all day long.

We have never run a 15mm axle, maybe DS can comment on the 15mm axle.

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

malaclemys said:


> I hate to ask but is the fork tandem rated? It looks like it has the Kashima coating. Fifteen millimeter through axle?
> 
> Very sweet build.


Nope. Fox does not rate any of their forks for tandem use. 15mm through axle, 34mm stanchions. We a are relatively light team...

Thanks! It's a ton of fun!

Interesting observation after a few rides, with the Talas fork, I have switched between 110mm of travel and 140mm and they are not kidding when they say that a frame is "optimized" for a certain travel fork. The bike rides way better with the shorter travel. I guess this should not be a surprise, but it is apparent when you can switch back and forth on the fly.


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## fai (Sep 3, 2004)

Ventana_ElConquistadorDeMontanas_Frame by Alanatriversidecyclecentre, on Flickr

Many changes for 2012


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

fai said:


> Many changes for 2012


Beyond the HT change, what else changed?


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## StanleyJ (Dec 11, 2010)

fai said:


> Ventana_ElConquistadorDeMontanas_Frame by Alanatriversidecyclecentre, on Flickr
> 
> Many changes for 2012


I spy with my little eye... something beginning with "tapered headtube" and "Kashima coated Fox shock"...


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

The FlickR account says it was taken in August. The photo is the same frame that was on the recently posted link to the new Ventana website.

As cool as it is, we'll run our 2006 until a major redesign is released.

Overall, these bikes are very capable of some serious riding.

PK


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## fai (Sep 3, 2004)

Lowered bottom brackets,more aggressive geometry, shorter wheelbase, increased captain standover clearance, tapered head tube.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

fai said:


> Lowered bottom brackets,more aggressive geometry, shorter wheelbase, increased captain standover clearance, tapered head tube.


While the more aggressive geometry would be nice, complimented also with less length, lower bottom brackets means we won't be owning a new Ventana. That alone, less clearance, is a deal breaker for us since our current bike ECDM is so limited in regards to getting over or through stuff clean.

It is such a bummer to be killing tight, rip the ends of your grips off, singletrack with a group single bikes, only to have to stop and lift the bike over stuff that isn't that tall, but forces the tandem to be lifted over.

I have some ideas on how I want our ultimate frame to be and also better fork design since the tandems can't wheely or lift the front easily. So much of how we ride is based on keeping speed and momentum and as good as it is now, it can be better. More finesse, less of a controlled crash.

Maybe it is time to draw the plans and work with a custom shop to build what we really want / need..

PK


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## zibell (Apr 13, 2007)

PMK said:


> While the more aggressive geometry would be nice, complimented also with less length, lower bottom brackets means we won't be owning a new Ventana. That alone, less clearance, is a deal breaker for us since our current bike ECDM is so limited in regards to getting over or through stuff clean.
> 
> Maybe it is time to draw the plans and work with a custom shop to build what we really want / need..
> 
> PK


You can always contact Sherwood about a full custom. I agree with the bb height and think that a lower bb will cause issues. We're riding and old school ECDM circa 2001. I'm waiting for somebody to pull the trigger on a new frame so that I can buy their old one. I'd like a 2010 frame with 6" rockers and a coil shock to compliment our 66VF fork. I'd like to wait for a 29er ECDM but I'm waiting on forks and wheels, and I don't see a 29er full bore DH bike in the near future. 
Patrick Zibell
Fullerton, CA


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

zibell said:


> You can always contact Sherwood about a full custom. I agree with the bb height and think that a lower bb will cause issues. We're riding and old school ECDM circa 2001. I'm waiting for somebody to pull the trigger on a new frame so that I can buy their old one. I'd like a 2010 frame with 6" rockers and a coil shock to compliment our 66VF fork. I'd like to wait for a 29er ECDM but I'm waiting on forks and wheels, and I don't see a 29er full bore DH bike in the near future.
> Patrick Zibell
> Fullerton, CA


We'll see, Sherwood seems pretty busy and Teresa, possibly via Sherwood was not to interested in truly going "full custom". I inquired about building a bike with the new ass end on it. As I said, they were very busy at the time, so who knows.

Probably should just ride more, pedal harder, go faster, and if needed hold on tighter.

PK


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

fai said:


> Lowered bottom brackets,more aggressive geometry, shorter wheelbase, increased captain standover clearance, tapered head tube.


Where'd you get that info?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Another California tandem posted in the Ventana section

http://forums.mtbr.com/ventana/follow-along-children-tandem-build-763755.html


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## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

Here is our new coupled ECDM 29er that we took delivery of two weeks ago. We put it together rode it 150 yards and put it back in the cases and flew to Moab and did a five day Maze trip in Canyonlands National Park. The bike exceeded our expectations in just about every way. We have a 26 ECDM also and the bikes ride quite differently. We were able to ride some of the most technical stuff we have ever ridden. It is also the most plush ride we have ridden and the new WTB Loop fork worked very well. Sherwood worked to give me as much standover height as he could and it is much better then the 26 in that regards. It is a 17/16. Alex at MTB tandems did a great job as the bike was flawless on the 5 day ride with just the usual breakin adjustments needed. It is as easy to pack as our road tandem and each case weighted 49 lbs packed so it meets airline requirements and we were not charged to fly with it. We also rented a standard car so it saved from having to rent a van. A few trips will save the cost of the couplers. BTW the couplers from Ventana are the best bargain in biking at $1500 which includes the hard cases and tubing cover material. The cases sell for 500 each. Alex was able to find a few things in blue to compliment the frame color and add a little bling. The best thing about the bike was that Karen absolutely loved the new bike so I had a very happy stoker and did not drop her once on the trip. The pictures show a little bit of the record snow we had this year in Anchorage.
17/16 coupled 29er ECDM frame
sram drivetrain 3X9 w/grip shift
Middleburn cranks
WTB Loop fork
FSA Carbon bars
Chris King hubs w/ Sun rims sapin spokes WTB 2.5 tires
Hope V2 tech brakes w/ floating discs
complete with spectacular stoker


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Very, very nice. :thumbsup: I'll be interested to know what you decide to do about the couplers and trail dust.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Very nice looking bike!!! Some day when I am packing my "uncoupled" bike to travel to some far away place I am going to wish we had ours built coupled as well... 

I still owe a longer term report on our bike, maybe with some detailed pics like akexpress has done.

By the way, what is your low gear? or what cassette and chainrings are you running?


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## KgB (Jan 13, 2004)

*ride picture*

great with kids too


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## Stevoo (Mar 9, 2007)

Looking to upgrade my 9 year old brakes. How do you like the V2's? Have you had the chance to give em a good workout yet? On the fence between the 2013 Saint and the Hope V2. My Hope Enduro 4 pots work fine for normal stuff but killer hills cook em.

Awesome bike you have there by the way. Keep us posted on how the couplers work out for you.


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## zibell (Apr 13, 2007)

Hey Stevoo, my 4pots also boil on big downhills(luckly they come back fast)
. Are you running braided lines or standard lines? I'm running standard lines and was wondering if the braided lines would be any better performance on the big downhills?


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## Stevoo (Mar 9, 2007)

Running standard lines as well. The braided lines won't help as the fluid is boiling inside where the pistons get the heat from the pad backing. The braided line is so small of an addition of thin metal on the outside that from a heatsink standpoint it ain't gonna help and it is too fr away from the heat source to be of any use. . Just for an example: I used some thermally conductive epoxy and huge aluminum heatsinks on a previous model caliper and they worked great to get the recovery time down but they in no way addressed the root cause of the problem. Still boiled fluid. If you have melted off the current kevlar hose then the braided hose may help fix that. The heat deal and boiling fluid is a whole other can o worms.

Been using the super duper Motul brake fluid and I change it often. Using 205mm rotors, EBC organic red pads seem to insulate the heat from the caliper best but wear fast. OEM Hope pads boil fluid rather quickly, sintered metal pads boil fluid in 15 seconds (calipers not designed for sintered metal pads). I was going to machine phenolic pistons to insulate the calipers from the heat but never seem to have enough time to get to it. Called hope and looked at their tech drawings and they went from using stainless pistons to titanium pistons and now I see on some parts lists that they are now using phenolic pistons. That takes them up to 1970's motorcycle technology. I think the V2 uses phenolic pistons and are quite big calipers so that is why I am interested in how they work out. 

I am also interested in the 2013 Shimano Saint's as they seem to be designed to use sintered pads but I worry about the use of mineral oil for fluid. I hear they will also be using the finned heatsink pads like the XTR Trail brakes. We shal see,


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## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

Stevoo said:


> Looking to upgrade my 9 year old brakes. How do you like the V2's? Have you had the chance to give em a good workout yet? On the fence between the 2013 Saint and the Hope V2. My Hope Enduro 4 pots work fine for normal stuff but killer hills cook em.
> 
> Awesome bike you have there by the way. Keep us posted on how the couplers work out for you.


I am very impressed with the V2 brakes. We had some quite long technical descents 800-1000 ft and they were flawless. silent and no apparent fluid issues. I wonder if some of the perceived boil issues are in fact off gassing of the pads. We have braided lines. Our friends whom weigh about 40lbs less then us had issues with the saints very noisy and loss of braking they hated them and it was a new set. Our other bike has mono6 ti and the V2 are better in my opinion. I am getting more experienced about brakes on tandems then I want as we had issues on Mt Ventoux on our Calfee road tandem last year. We started a thread over on the road tandem forum regarding Avid mechanical discs. We are a 340 lbs team with lots of riding for many years but only abut 5 years on tandems. I do not expect any coupler issues.


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## StanleyJ (Dec 11, 2010)

Stevoo said:


> Been using the super duper Motul brake fluid and I change it often.


Just wondered if you're aware of Castrol React SRF Racing?

Spec sheet: http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/castrol/castrol-react-srf-racing.pdf

Dry boiling points are about the same ~600F, but where as the Motul 660 has a wet boiling point of 400F... the Castrol has a wet boiling point of ~520F(!!!).

But I guess if you're cooking dry fluid, then perhaps the heatsinks need to be conductive-epoxied on to the pad backing plates somehow?


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## Stevoo (Mar 9, 2007)

Heat sink backing plates would help and I am thinking about that. But still the root of the problem is that the pistons are stainless steel and the heat from even aluminum backing plates will go straight through them and then boil the fluid. Might help some by directing some heat towarards the fins though. Mostly a band aid fix though.

I did see the Castrol fluid and the excellent performace when wet. I change the fluid so often that I am not willing to pay the price for that stuff $$. Dry it is the same as the Motul 660. Nice thing about the Hope's is that they bleed like a car and it is super easy and fast.

Overall the Hope's are really nice. I guess I just need to buy the newer models as they are getting better and more suited to higher performance demands.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Is that with a Hope vented disc too?

PK


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## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

I am not using the vented disc just the floating. I am happy with the performance at this point but if it deteriorates I will try the vented discs.
Mark


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## AUSSIE ECdM (Jul 15, 2012)

*Other Aussie EDcM owners??*

Hi, just a brief message to ask if there are any Aussie ECdM owners who use this forum?
My wife and I are awaiting the delivery of our 29er from Alex


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

AUSSIE ECdM said:


> Hi, just a brief message to ask if there are any Aussie ECdM owners who use this forum?
> My wife and I are awaiting the delivery of our 29er from Alex


Not an Aussie but We don't think you will be disappointed with your Made in the USA ECDM or any dealings with MTB Tandems. Be sure to post pics and your ride experiences here. Good Luck!:thumbsup:
Ed and Pat Gifford
the Snot Rocket tandem
Grinch Green ECDM 26'er
Toms River, NJ USA
(East Coast)


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## AUSSIE ECdM (Jul 15, 2012)

Thanks Ed or Pat, I have been very happy with the process of plan, order, build so far. Our ECdM is due to leave Atlanta this week for the long trip Down Under.
It's 29er ECdM
Champagne
19/14
Cheers, 
Tim & Jodie 
Victoria Australia


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## TaitettaVille (Jul 10, 2012)

Hi everyone,

This is my first post, but I have been reading mtbr/mtbtandem for few months now. I and my spouse live in southern Finland. We have been riding our mini tandem for 1,5 years and decided to expand our riding territory. 

We bought our first mtbTandem and it is Ventana ECDM 17/14. It is former showroom bike. Specs include...

RS Pike 454
DT Swiss 540 rear hub / mavic 729
XT front hub / mavic 729
XT derailleurs and Deore shifters
Truvativ Firex chainset (Picture: Shimano Ultergra ISIS)
Magura Louise 203/180 brakes
Schwalbe Racing Ralphs

We have been riding for couple of weeks and we have enjoyed very much. Only thing I would like to change is Racing Ralphs. I have been looking for more aggressive tyres which have decent rolling resistance. I think Maxxis Ardents could be one option to consider, but I don't know does 2,4" Ardent fit into rear fork... Is there teams riding with Maxxis Ardent 2.4" ?

Ville&Elina
Hyvinkaa, Finland

Our bike:
w w w.flickr.com/photos/villeparkkinen/7543784380/


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Welcome to Tim & Jodie and Ville & Elina!


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

TaitettaVille said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> This is my first post, but I have been reading mtbr/mtbtandem for few months now. I and my spouse live in southern Finland. We have been riding our mini tandem for 1,5 years and decided to expand our riding territory.
> 
> ...


Wow nice ride love the color :thumbsup:


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

AUSSIE ECdM said:


> Hi, just a brief message to ask if there are any Aussie ECdM owners who use this forum?
> My wife and I are awaiting the delivery of our 29er from Alex


You mean this one?


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## AUSSIE ECdM (Jul 15, 2012)

You are a legend Alex, can't wait to receive this ECdM then get out for our first ride, cheers and thanks again Alex (and your team), Tim-Downunder


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## TaitettaVille (Jul 10, 2012)

We made short video about our favorite singletrack. We are using ECDM, so maybe this is right topic .

youtu.be/6lA_Ygaxk1k


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Nice trail! Looks like a green version of Bend, Oregon.


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Good video. For some reason the shots going through the trees when you can't see the tandem or riders reminds me of Star Wars and being on the Speeder bikes on Endor.
Beautiful area! and Great looking ECDM.
Ed and Pat Gifford
the Snot Rocket tandem


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

Nice video work!!
looks like a fun place to ride my daughter wants to know if you ever seen Bigfoot :eekster:


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## TaitettaVille (Jul 10, 2012)

XC Mike said:


> Nice video work!!
> looks like a fun place to ride my daughter wants to know if you ever seen Bigfoot :eekster:


Thank you! We have very few elusive animals in Finland. . I think once we thought we had a lion running loose near Russian border. We were wrong, it was runaway dog.  So, no, We haven't had any Big Foot sightings!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

This place has been kind of dead lately, maybe nobody is riding anymore, maybe riding all the time, or possibly there is a new hangout and I am unaware of.

So just to toss in a post, been working on the ECDM a little, actually riding it more.

Did a quicky rear shock rebuild, it was overdue, so I made that happen one night before a ride. Also dropped the lowers on the Fox 40, cleaning and lubing seals plus a new shot of lower leg fluid.

Decided the rear der that came on the bike SRAM X7 was getting a bit sloppy. So I opted in for keeping the black / red theme alive and found a used XO rear der with the red colored and carbon cage. Not a bad touch, looks good and was a fraction of new in cost. Shifting improved also.

Tires are spent, so should have some new Panaracer Rampages here by the end of the week.

I've been accused of not ever using brakes, but somehow it's time for new brake pads too.

I'll see if I can get another photo next week after it gets washed, and finish up some more maintenance items.

In regards to the red accents, the frame is the same Black Super Dust, it has red Race Face cranks with polished outer edge lips, red seat collars, red (Manitou) valve stem cap on the Fox DHX air 5.0 Boost Valve, Red accents from the Avid BB7 brakes front and rear, and red valve stem caps on the tubes. Offsetting the red is the blue of the Fox 40 fork and DHX air adjuster knobs and decals. The polished rims, which seem dated, along with the polished rear triangle prevent the silly "murdered out" look as they call it.

PK


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Hi Paul and Jeanne,
Glad to hear all is well and you're riding comfotably again.Good to hear about the Fandango also as selling a bike with that much blood, sweat and tears into it is like selling one of the family. We have also been riding a fair amount as the summer up here has been very condusive to it. The weather has not been too dry and not too wet(the lawn is still green) and the same temperature wise.Trying to take advantage of that.We rode with the DOGS last weekend and had a good time doing so.It is amazing at the comments a group of 4 or 5 tandems get riding through a bunch of single bikes on the trail. We chose not to travel this year and have been enjoying life at the Jersey Shore. 
Stay in touch,
Ed and Pat Gifford
the Snot Rocket tandem


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Been riding off and on this summer due to injuries, but the bike has been pretty solid. Lots of wear-item replacements in the last few months (RD, cassette, chain, and cables). Been dealing with the 2011 Marzocchi 66 QR20 that loosens up slightly over time, giving a clunking at the front end. Finally figured out some tricks to securing it (had no issues the first six months or so), including greasing it and adding a section of road tube as a rubber boot to prevent grit from co-mingling with the grease.


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

So many nice colors I would have a hard time picking a color if I had too


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

XC Mike said:


> So many nice colors I would have a hard time picking a color if I had too


It's worse than that! Ventana has a wide range of colors you CAN pick from, beyond the "normal" ones generally offered or spec'ed as standard for a particular frame.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

*ECDM 29 update*

PMK, great to hear that you are back on the Ventana!!

I suppose it is time to check back in regarding our ECDM 29. It's been nearly a year and we have put some miles on this bike! No races ths year, but lots of long fun rides. We are extremely pleased with this bike. I think that's an understatement. A little history for those who may not know. We started on the MTB tandem several years back with a 26" ECDM. The bike was purchased and built with the intent on riding/racing the Leadville 100. We completed that race in 2009 and 2010. Very happy with the 26" wheeled bike, but was intrigued with the bigger wheels and figured the larger wheel (especially the front) would be a huge benefit for the offload tandem - b/c it is nearly impossible to lift the front end over obstacles. So in 2010, we decided to build a Fandango 29, this was a bit of an experiment, but figured that we could build that bike quite a bit cheaper than a ECDM 29. Long story short, we were big fans of the big wheels. After one season on that bike we decided that the 26" ECDM had to go to make room for a 29" wheeled ECDM.

That brings us to where we are now. I'll cut to the chase, this bike is awesome! I don't know if I would change one thing if I were to do it all over again from scratch.

The build:
Ventana ECDM 29" frame (17/16) tapered head tube , carbon black, powder coated rear triangle 145 spacing
DaVinci cranks (anodized black)
Phil wood Ti BBs
Magura MT6 brakes (203 rotors)
SRAM X9 10sp 3x10 (11/36 cassette)
Thompson seatposts
Chris King headset
Maverick DUC 32 fork - Switched to Fox 34 again
Chris King hubs, laced to Velocity P35 rims
Maxxis Ardent 2.4 front tire 
Panaracer Rampage 2.35 rear tire
That's the main stuff...

I guess the bike has a little longer wheelbase, but I don't seem to notice any issues. Ventana makes an amazing frame! Alex at MTBTandems.com Home Page is a pleasure to deal with and knows his stuff!!

I'm sure I could go on an on about the bike, but it is just the perfect bike! If you have the means, get yourself one of these bikes!!!! So maybe this is not much of a critical review as it is a testimonial as to how much we love our bike! What I can say is that after spec'ing two other tandems and riding them thousands of miles, we have dialed in our perfect bike.


From MTB tandems

Click the link at the bottom of this picture to see some amazing views from the 401 trail in Crested Butte Colorado. If you view it via slide show, there's some narration at the bottom of each picture.

[URL=https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/WDYIkOf1GhqUCKErJMvPDMqQErHGA-Snz1pG5Knr59I?feat=embedwebsite]

From Crested Butte 401 - 2012
[/URL]


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Great pics Dan and Bevin, thanks for the follow up report on the 29er ECDM. Glad to hear you're happy with it. We haven't been to Colorado since 1977 for our 5th anniversary.( Yes we've been married that long!). Seeing your pics sure makes me want to go again.:thumbsup:
Ed and Pat Gifford
the Snot Rocket tandem


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

Nice Lookin' Ride Dan :thumbsup:
what stoker stem you running?


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

XC Mike said:


> Nice Lookin' Ride Dan :thumbsup:
> what stoker stem you running?


Thanks!!! As you can gather, we like it! 

The stoker stem is actually a trials stem (fixed length) I think it is 175mm.

Potence Echo SL 20" CNC 175mm x 30 degrés - TRIALPROD

I did not buy it from there - but I think that's the one!


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> Thanks!!! As you can gather, we like it!
> 
> The stoker stem is actually a trials stem (fixed length) I think it is 175mm.
> 
> ...


Thanks Dan!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Finally found this video taken during New Years.

It is us, two crazed grandparents.

Not sure we would have tried this on a hardtail tandem.

FWIW, the fall to the inside of the turn is like 5 or 6 feet straight down, the entry is very rooted, and the final drop in is scalloped pretty nasty, with a huge floating root.

Being honest, I walked it a couple times before riding it.

Narration is from Chris J, another tandem team captain

PK


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

PMK said:


> Finally found this video taken during New Years.
> 
> It is us, two crazed grandparents.
> 
> ...


Not Bad for some Old Timers :thumbsup:


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## leszazas (May 16, 2007)

*Bottom Bracket height on the 29er*

Hello happy tandem riders,

A little intro: we are from France, riding a 20th century Univega Full suspension tandem:








We are so interested by the 29 ECDM. But as we checked the geometry I'm really scared by the tall bottom bracket height: 15,57 inches for the captain !!!
As I checked on solo MTB, the 29 version of 26 bike usually had even a lower bottom bracket !!! see stumpjumper 29 and 26, Santa Cruz Blur Lt, Intense Tracer 2

So what do you think and for those happy 29 owners, what's your riding report ?

Have a good ride !
Amélie and Laurent


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

Welcome! I would say that optimal BB height depends somewhat on your terrain. We live and ride where there are many rocks and obstacles, so for us a higher BB equals more clearance and fewer pedal strikes. Our 26" Ventana is over 16" BB height. It is tall, but once riding it, I don't notice.


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

leszazas said:


> Hello happy tandem riders,
> 
> A little intro: we are from France, riding a 20th century Univega Full suspension tandem:
> View attachment 722850
> ...


Welcome to MTBR Amélie and Laurent
How about a new thread showing more pictures of your tandem.... 
also how is that Lefty working out never thought it would work on a tandem :thumbsup:


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## StanleyJ (Dec 11, 2010)

leszazas said:


> We are so interested by the 29 ECDM. But as we checked the geometry I'm really scared by the tall bottom bracket height: 15,57 inches for the captain !!!


The Ventana website shows the fork length as 518mm, so that would be a 120mm travel 29er fork... so the Ventana geometry numbers are of the bike unsagged (which I personally think is a bit useless, solo or tandems).

With 5in travel upfront and 4in out back and sagged 30%, sagged captain BB height would be ~14.0in and stoker BB height would be ~13.8. That's not so bad considering you do need the BB's a bit higher on a tandem compared to a solo bike to not get constant pedal strikes...


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## leszazas (May 16, 2007)

Oh yes we should present ourselves, I will as soon as... I have time home !!!

For the Lefty it's really a good fork for us, it's the spring version on the picture with the stronger steel spring (perfect) and we soon will have the air one. It's so rigid. In the meantime we have a FOX 36 Float reduced to 140mm travel and I have strange feeling on diagonal roots and ridges, not on braking as I would have think. Like if the fork was flexing lateraly if my english is not to bad !!! I almost crash the other day with this lateral flex on a leaning mini-jump reception. I had a 36 on my solo and it was not flexy at all !!!

Have a good ride !
Laurent


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## TaitettaVille (Jul 10, 2012)

I couldn't make a new thread for tire speculation, so I start it here (I have only 3 posts...). 

Today riding from work we got 9 (n-i-n-e) cuts in rear tire sidewalls. Three cuts on driveside and six on non-driveside. We were exploring "new" trails and backend whipped from side to side during rocky sections. Stoker was singing her happy song, but we managed to get through without incidents. 'while riding to next trail section, we noticed considerable wobble on rear tire and found those nasty cuts.

Tires were intact after saturdays ride, so todays ride was very tough for tires. We have been running Nobby Nics 2.25" front and rear.

We have had the wettest summer in 150 years, but Nobby Nics have been very reliable on slimy roots and wet rock. NN are little bit slow for out taste, so we are looking alternatives with similar grip but little less rolling resistance. Suggestions? 

Local shop carries Continental Mountain King II Protection 2.2 (I think it is too thin for my liking) and Rubber Queen 2.2 (much wider than Mountain king, but is slower)... Anyone using Mountain King 2.2 or Rubber Queen 2.2 (Trail king in North America) in ECDM?


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

TaitettaVille said:


> I couldn't make a new thread for tire speculation, so I start it here (I have only 3 posts...).
> 
> Today riding from work we got 9 (n-i-n-e) cuts in rear tire sidewalls. Three cuts on driveside and six on non-driveside. We were exploring "new" trails and backend whipped from side to side during rocky sections. Stoker was singing her happy song, but we managed to get through without incidents. 'while riding to next trail section, we noticed considerable wobble on rear tire and found those nasty cuts.
> ...


Ugh! Nine cuts?!

I recently put a nevgal tubeless 2.35 on the back of the 26er ECDM. So far so good....
Have been having tire durability issues on my 1-seat bike too....


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## TaitettaVille (Jul 10, 2012)

reamer41 said:


> Ugh! Nine cuts?!
> 
> I recently put a nevgal tubeless 2.35 on the back of the 26er ECDM. So far so good....
> Have been having tire durability issues on my 1-seat bike too....


Today I changed tires and took a closer look. There was abrasion on both sides of sidewalls. We are using mavic dh-rims, so 2,25" Nobby nics are very full and side walls come out wider than side knobs. I think our trails and riding style is just very tough for sidewalls if side knobs aren't wide enough.

I went to local shop and they had Rubber Queen 2,4" (Black Chilli compound). I wasn't sure if it would fit to ECDM rear fork. Fortunately it fits, but there is just 5 mm room over the tire. Rubber queen feels more rugged than Nobby Nics, but time will tell. Side knobs are little wider, but I think sidewalls are still in danger.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Our ECDM is apart for some maintenance. I had shared my concern about the upper shock bolt for those running a 6mm diameter bolt.

http://forums.mtbr.com/tandem-mountain-bikes/if-you-own-ecdm-ride-hard-817600.html

Today I was able to disassemble the rear end. For those that have never had the rear suspension apart, it's pretty easy.

I have the Ventana bearing removal and install tool and must say it is money well spent. With the swingarm, seatstay and rocker removed, the Ventana tool easily pressed out all the bearings in a leisurely 15 minutes. All the bearings had the seal removed, were solvent washed, greased with Bel-Ray waterproof grease. I greased the bearings 100% full prior to installing the seals.

After cleaning the suspension components, all the bearings were again easily installed.

We ride pretty much all year round. For those that do winter maintenance, this would be a worthy task. Tomorrow I plan to reassemble the rear suspension. The one real caution will be to ensure the pivot threads are clean and free of grease so the Loctite will bond.

The one problem that did occur was during disassembly. The left side seatstay / rocker pivot had the stainless post unscrew from the seatstay bridge. No damage, just cleaned it with Brakleen, applied Loctite Red 271 and reinstalled.

PK


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

While we haven't put a ton of miles on our ECdM in the last few months, it hasn't needed anything and continues to be ready to rock. We haven't even broken anything since the SRAM chain (which must have been a bad batch of chains as we're still running them) incident, and after switching out from the WI rear hub. Maintenance here and there, and lots of cleaning, but that's about it. A lot fewer air pressure adjustments in the fork after switching to a coil-sprung 66EVO.

WTB Prowler 2.4s on the street howl like a Jeep with monster mudders, but even that works to our advantage on the street and hardpack sections since people can hear us comin'. And despite riding our local trails for over five years, we still get people with comments like "...they're not going to go through the creek bed on that thing, are they...?"

It would be nice to pull 7-8 pounds out of the bike, but we don't have that kind of money. Even if we did, I'd imagine it would result in some increase in trailside repairs and long walks out. In the face of the cost alone, I'm happier with the slightly more blunt and burly instrument.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

I'll agree, so far our ECDM has held up very well to the abuse. I guess to the point of planning to do things like these pivots but it just keeps going, so they never got done. 

PK


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Did you find any notches in the bearings when you pulled them? Our aluminum ECdM had them after about 3.5 years of riding without any sort of service or rotation. I wonder what the cost of the bearing tool is versus new bearings. ...But, then I'll need the bearing tool to R&R the new bearings anyway. Drat.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

A couple were gritty but are fine. I believe the bearing kit is fairly expensive since it includes new bolts and such.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

During the rear end rebuild, I found our upper shock bolt bent. After a short discussion with Sherwood at Ventana, I also learned, that for our ECDM, we could gain additional rear end stiffness by replacing not only the upper shock bolt but also all the suspension pivot bolts.

These bolts high end metric fasteners are not available from Ventana. So, I had to order by the box from the fastener manufacturer.

If anyone has an interest in upgrading there ECDM, shoot me a PM and I can send the fasteners for what they cost me plus some USPS shipping.

PK


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## rhxpro (Oct 9, 2006)

*96 ecdm*

Well Rene and Kristi from City of Angels. Built this up in 96 and it has seen many transformations since... The Bike has been awesome and has towed a burley trailer with 2 kids in it all around the western states... The Wife and I are going to be doin alot more rides and hopefully we'll see you out there. As far as the the Electric Green Monster... I would love to go 29er 2x10 etc but it just works soooo well??? I upgraded the rear to 5" and I have a 6" in front.

Some upgrades I will be doing:

Lockout suspension front and rear 
Possibly a 27.5 front wheel ???
Formula the one brakes


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## rhxpro (Oct 9, 2006)

forgot the pics


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Nice! Love the color!
Ed and Pat Gifford
the Snot Rocket tandem


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## zibell (Apr 13, 2007)

Rene & Kristi, Nice bike, we ride a similar bike just 5 years newer. Our son is 6 and we went through the Burley and now we tow him on a trail-a-bike. I'm interested in the upgrade to 5" in the rear. Our ECDM has a 6" Marzocchi 66 in the front and only the standard 4" rear. The ride is fine and we really don't seem to use up all the rear travel, but maybe the extra inch in the rear might speed up the steering.

Thanks
Patrick & Maria
Fullerton, CA


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## TaitettaVille (Jul 10, 2012)

youtu.be/mxX6_RwGSUo

Our new conquest in Hyvinkää, Finland. This trail is used for MtbEnduro competitions. We weren't as smooth as we would liked to be, but we had lots of fun filming.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

TaitettaVille said:


> youtu.be/mxX6_RwGSUo
> 
> Our new conquest in Hyvinkää, Finland. This trail is used for MtbEnduro competitions. We weren't as smooth as we would liked to be, but we had lots of fun filming.


I like it!! The trail looks fun and challenging.

As for not riding the entire trail clean, it happens.

The riding looks some similar to the trails in New England here in the US. Rocky, Hardpack and often wet in places. Trees appear similar too.

Thanks for sharing that.

PK


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

TaitettaVille said:


> youtu.be/mxX6_RwGSUo
> 
> Our new conquest in Hyvinkää, Finland. This trail is used for MtbEnduro competitions. We weren't as smooth as we would liked to be, but we had lots of fun filming.


Nice job with the movie.Looks like it was fun.As far as smoothness goes I think some movies you see the mistakes or bobbles are left on the editing room floor. Leaving a few in takes a lot more courage.:thumbsup: Beautiful area that you have to ride in.
Ed and Pat Gifford
the Snot Rocket tandem


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

giff07 said:


> Nice job with the movie.Looks like it was fun.As far as smoothness goes I think some movies you see the mistakes or bobbles are left on the editing room floor. Leaving a few in takes a lot more courage.:thumbsup: Beautiful area that you have to ride in.
> Ed and Pat Gifford
> the Snot Rocket tandem


The latest video I am working on editing is planned, not from your post, but I decided I wanted to show our first attempt that had us fail a climb, followed by more bobbles before we got going again. Then the second attempt which we were able to make the climb clean.

FWIW, seems the places we tend to video, a crash could be not in our best interest. The cool funny crashes or hangup never seem to be on video.

PK


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Don't be offended Paul. There was not any finger pointing intended by my comment. It was simply stating that it was easy to make a video without any mistakes in riding technique through creative editing and it took more courage to leave a few mistakes in. If we rode perfectly all the time without any crashes or bobbles riding the tandem wouldn't be near as much fun or the trails would be so boring we might as well road ride.
Ed and Pat
tSRt


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Ed, no offense taken in any way. I agree, so often some cool stuff is left out with near misses and crashes.

As I mentioned, I have another video from the same event, we were on a trail section and did not make a climb. The hurried haste to get going again and out of the way for other coming riders, is a disaster that draws blood. PO'd, as Captain of the ship I set out for a clean run, which we get in the second try.

I have another video from the same weekend. On a climb, a rider in front of us gets off his bike to push up the hill. I am telling him to get out of the way. Suffice to say the collision is impressive on video. The other guy has a rear der squashed into his spokes from the down stroke of my left pedal. I will need to do an audio edit also...there were some bad words from mouth after we got rolling again.

PK


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

*ECDM 29er Rocks!*

:thumbsup: Very good bike capable of most trails a single bike can ride. We have been in Arizona for the past week and ridden: Sedona, Prescott, and Scottsdale. Sedona was a real eye opener for what the bike can get through, up, and over, cleanly. Pretty amazing really. I guess I need to get a GoPro. 

The high bottom bracket makes it possible to get through the rocks. High speed steering stability suffers a bit but it corners good enough. Anyone try a Hopey steering damper?


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

I don't know of anyone here that runs a Hopey. There was a good discussion of it on Double Forte a few years ago. Should be able to find it with a search there.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ebnelson said:


> :thumbsup: Very good bike capable of most trails a single bike can ride. We have been in Arizona for the past week and ridden: Sedona, Prescott, and Scottsdale. Sedona was a real eye opener for what the bike can get through, up, and over, cleanly. Pretty amazing really. I guess I need to get a GoPro.
> 
> The high bottom bracket makes it possible to get through the rocks. High speed steering stability suffers a bit but it corners good enough. Anyone try a Hopey steering damper?


What would you deem as high speed steering stability in regards to actual speed and terrain type?

A lot of how the bike feels and reacts is based not only on headtube angle but fork offset dimension which relates directly to the dimension for trail.

The window off stabilty vs speed related to trail dimension is a very small change.

PK


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

PMK said:


> What would you deem as high speed steering stability in regards to actual speed and terrain type?
> 
> A lot of how the bike feels and reacts is based not only on headtube angle but fork offset dimension which relates directly to the dimension for trail.
> 
> ...


Stability is probably a misleading word to use. The steering is stable, but clipping rocks with the front tire, unexpectedly, is more likely on the tandem then single while descending. The same is true climbing where the intended line may deviate a bit, especially in the little ring. The idea being that it might make the bike track a bit more nicely to slow down the steering. We've been riding in a lot of "baby head" sized rocks lately. On my enduro moto the steering damper helps from getting the bars yanked. I can definitely live without one but would be interested to see if any tandem teams have tried one.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

I run a Scotts / Ohlins steering damper on my KTM, so I understand where you are coming from. However, as a suspension tuner, my thoughts are the suspension is not dialed in and deflecting. 

Dampers are neat devices, and can make good suspension better. A damper on poor suspension acts as a band aid and helps hide or cover up poor setups. Not saying you have a poor setup, just something to maybe look closely at.

Also, I don't know what fork you run, but as I have taught others, it does make a difference to properly align the fork tubes before tightening the axle pinch bolts. Moto guys should know this but often overlook it on their MTB.

Tandem wise, when we ride local trails / terrain the low speed compression, high speed compression and rebound seldom get changed. On road trips, typically the stoker will make changes to the compression adjuster while rolling and I will make changes to the HSC and LSC as needed. Sounds complicated but really just a few clicks to take the edge off hack type square edges, limit rear squat, or help the bike turn better.

We do not run a steering damper on the tandem, if we did, I doubt I would use a Hopey. I would likely adapt a CRF damper to the frame and lower triple clamp. 

Best of luck with it.

PK

Want to add, being a 29r, you might just have a ton of wheel flex that noting less than different wheels will overcome. Our bike is a 26 so wheel flex is not a real issue.


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## TaitettaVille (Jul 10, 2012)

We got our first decent helmet cam, so we had to make a test video. 


Snowride - MTBTandem movie 
youtu.be/oPv5hFA7pF8


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Loved the video. My stoker was just watching over my shoulder too! Tandem watching a tandem on the computer!


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## TaitettaVille (Jul 10, 2012)

Okayfine said:


> Loved the video. My stoker was just watching over my shoulder too! Tandem watching a tandem on the computer!


We love watching other teams riding different sections. We don't know any teams in Finland, so videos are only "peer group" and way to learn from others. It would be nice to have more tandem videos showing capabilities of the bike on this forum.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

TaitettaVille said:


> We love watching other teams riding different sections. We don't know any teams in Finland, so videos are only "peer group" and way to learn from others. It would be nice to have more tandem videos showing capabilities of the bike on this forum.


My stoker and I have been discussing getting some non bike mounted video. We have some ideas and will try and make it show bikes ability and my stupidity to ride crazy things.

PK


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## DonP. (Dec 4, 2012)

*New tandem team*

Been lurking here for a while and thinking of getting a MTB tandem. We've been mountain biking since the mid 80's and riding a road tandem for 3yrs, so we thought we would like to give it a try off road. 
This thread has been a big help. Soooo,

Okay the deal is done, closed on a 2010 Ventana ECDM!!! Some highlights are; Sram XO code hyd discs front and rear, Fox Talas RC 36 150 mm fork, Sram X9 3x9 speed drive train. Should be delivered by Monday!

Thanks for all the good info and motovation to see this thru. 

Oops, maybe should have posted in SoCal thread...


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

DonP. said:


> ...Oops, maybe should have posted in SoCal thread...


Nah, fits the ECDM thread too. You can post in both

Welcome to the forum!!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

@DonP sounds nice and hope to see a few photos. Sounds like a great bike with many miles of enjoyment to be had. 

PK


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## DonP. (Dec 4, 2012)

*The Ventana arrived yesterday!*



PMK said:


> @DonP sounds nice and hope to see a few photos. Sounds like a great bike with many miles of enjoyment to be had.
> 
> PK


Got a few pics of the unpacking process, if I can post them....sorry the pics are a little big.


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Nice looking ride! Friends of ours have an ECDM in the same color they have dubbed it Screamcycle Orange. Have fun with it!
Ed and Pat Gifford 
the Snot Rocket tandem


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Very nice

PK


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Quickly opened presents on Christmas morning, then dashed out for a late-morning ride to the beach and back before family arrived. A bit goopy in spots due to the rain, but overall a wonderful ride with great winter weather (uh, for SoCal) and very few people out on the trails. We counted 5 cyclists, though over 50 hikers (many in one big group out). 

Had recently changed the SRAM 990 cassette for another XT. I could never trim the rear D to be happy with the 11T cog on the 990. This isn't just a 990 issue for me, since I've had the same problems with a 930 cassette on a completely different ECdM. The chain would want to climb the 12T cog, and it wasn't a limit-screw issue, it was a tension issue. If I adjusted the tension for the 11T cog to be happy, it would take two clicks to get out of it, and then the rest of the shifting was rubbish.

Back to XT, retrimmed the shifter, and I've got all gears and good shifting (X9 shifter and RD).

No other major changes to the bike. Another set of brake pads up front and a bleed (so easy with the Hopes). Going to need new rotors sooner or later, and I will need to do my winter maintenance (new chains, seal kit for the shock, wonder/worry about ordering new Middleburn sync rings or go (hope) with Homebrew for half the cost. I've always switched the sync rings front-to-back, so I've got a year.


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## TaitettaVille (Jul 10, 2012)

Our goal was to make a extensive video, but weather was too beautiful for filming. After couple of takes, we put cameras into bags and we rode without interruptions.


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Wonderful Job you guys! I am happy for you that it was a beautiful day But sorry you decided to stop filming. Nicely done.
Ed and Pat Gifford 
the Snot Rocket tandem


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

That looks like a really nice trail system, in the snow! What sort of tires do you use? And have you had any difficulties on snow with the higher center of gravity of a tandem?

Seriously muddy sections of trail give me troubles since the front tire wants to slide out sideways if I hit a rock, or get off balance.


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## TaitettaVille (Jul 10, 2012)

Thank you giff07!



Okayfine said:


> That looks like a really nice trail system, in the snow! What sort of tires do you use? And have you had any difficulties on snow with the higher center of gravity of a tandem?
> 
> Seriously muddy sections of trail give me troubles since the front tire wants to slide out sideways if I hit a rock, or get off balance.


We have tens of kilometers of singletrail in snow. People walking with dogs keep the trails open. Now trails are hardpacked and very fast.

We use Schwalbe Ice Spiker pro tires. Those are just superb winter tires.

We havent't experienced any difficulties relating higher center of gravity. Only difference/difficulty comparing summer trails is narrower path and tighter corners.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

*Spring Maintenance*

Did the spring maintenance schedule today:

New drive chain
Shock seal kit/rebuild
Complete service of CK hub
New rear shifter cable/housing
Clean/lube pedals
Wash

Doesn't seem like much, but took half the day. The CK service took half of that, but it's almost a joy to do with the special tools, since it all just works.

Out on the bike twice this past work week, which was nice. Viva la DST!


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

getting the disc adapter off the rear Chris King hub is being a ***** for me. I need to access the preload adjustment ring. I'm going to cut down a 2mm wrench to fit without getting the adapter off as a plan B.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

mtbr bleeped B I T C H. Really?


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm probably telling you things you've already tried and are aware of but here goes. If its a threaded adapter the threads are left handed as I recall. Lefty tighty, righty loosey. Also put the flat spots on the adapter locked in a bench vise and use the rim to turn it off.Don' t forget to loosen the allen set screw if you used it on the adapter. I had one on a Rolf road set that was a PITA but eventually got it off. Since I dont use the set screw I very lightly use an anti sieze compound on the threads. Did I mention only a very little? You do Not want that stuff on any of you stopping parts!
Good Luck!
Ed and Pat Gifford
the Snot Rocket tandem


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

On my hub, the adapter is splined (slides on) with 3 retaining screws. I got it to pop off this morning with tapping via soft blow and then gentle prying with a cone wrench.

It's a nice and sturdy hub with the steel freehub. I would greatly prefer a modern 142x12 setup to having to use "fun bolts." It's a topic for another thread though.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

Why did Ventana raise the BB height on the 29er version 1.5" over the 26er version. Looks like they took the 26er and slapped on a longer rear end, adjusted the head angle, and called it good. I'm not complaining about the 29er, just noting the 15"+ BB height. It works really well through rock gardens. A real monster truck!


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## malaclemys (Oct 22, 2010)

Could it simply be the difference in wheel size? Twenty nine minus 26 equals a three inches difference in diameter. Divide three inches by two and you get an one and a half inch difference in the radius and the height of the bike.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

Yes, that is what I was thinking. So if 13.5" was a good tried and true BB height, why didn't Ventana adjust the frame geometry on the 29er to get the BB height lower?


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## leszazas (May 16, 2007)

It's not only the wheel size, I asked Ventana directly and they said it was to give better clearance in real technical terrain. I'm also a little confuse because on the 26 they LOWERED the bottom bracket height between first appearance (in the 20th century !) and today's ECDM 26 tandems. 
The VERY high bottom bracket height on the 29 restrained me from buying it, I've already posted a question on this thread to know 29 inches tandem riders about their point of view and it seems it doesn't bother them. But still hesitating....


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

The high BB is working fine for us. We do ride it on technical terrain, like Sedona, AZ and rockier trails around Boulder, CO. The high BB has made it so we can drop of ledges I didn't think were rideable. If I were riding less technical trails of a place like those of bay area Northern California I would be happier with the lower BB.

Yesterday, the smooth and twisty trails of Eagle, CO were fun on the ECDM 29er but a little lower BB could likely rail around the turns a bit better.


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

EB, not sure which forks Ventana was using for the specs, but it looks like they adjusted the geometry for 120mm 29'er forks. So that could explain the BB height increase.
A2C given is 518mm which is akin to Fox's [email protected]


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

looks like I'm using a 140mm fork which would explain the height. The fork was supposed to be travel reduced down to 120mm when I got it from my brother. Guess I'll have to do that myself! It makes sense now that I've had to push my seat forward on the rails to get the seat angle to feel right. We used to use a 110mm on the bike and the geometry felt very good for climbing and general XC. 120mm will be good all around.


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## ybtodd (Jul 6, 2009)

Am pondering getting back into a tandem. I had a Santana road back in the mid 90's, then a Santana mtn in the late 90's set up with a child stoker for my then very young son. Long since sold but on the wrong side of age 50 now I really need to get back riding. Pavement blows here in LA so dirt is the only viable option unless I want to get run off the road by some driver on his/her cell phone. My wife happily rides on the back of our GS motorcycle, so I figure she'll be ideal as a stoker (unlike my ex-wife who really didn't like the idea - there's a story or three there).

At any rate, looking at Fandango DC-9 or a Ventana build. Mostly seems to be a question of DS or not. I'm thinking we'll be mostly fire road and probably some pavement (unavoidable). That seems to lean towards the DC-9 but comfort is king for an aging body.

Advice/pushes either direction happily read. For ECDM there is the 26 vs 29 question as well. I'm 6'1" so taller bike isn't an issue.


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

ybtodd said:


> Am pondering getting back into a tandem. I had a Santana road back in the mid 90's, then a Santana mtn in the late 90's set up with a child stoker for my then very young son. Long since sold but on the wrong side of age 50 now I really need to get back riding. Pavement blows here in LA so dirt is the only viable option unless I want to get run off the road by some driver on his/her cell phone. My wife happily rides on the back of our GS motorcycle, so I figure she'll be ideal as a stoker (unlike my ex-wife who really didn't like the idea - there's a story or three there).
> 
> At any rate, looking at Fandango DC-9 or a Ventana build. Mostly seems to be a question of DS or not. I'm thinking we'll be mostly fire road and probably some pavement (unavoidable). That seems to lean towards the DC-9 but comfort is king for an aging body.
> 
> Advice/pushes either direction happily read. For ECDM there is the 26 vs 29 question as well. I'm 6'1" so taller bike isn't an issue.


Hey Todd, we are pretty new to the tandem scene with only a few weeks on our mostly stock DC9 from Alex (mtbtandems.com). My stoker is pretty happy with the Thudbuster rear suspension as it gives a fair amount of flex for her. However, you should pick up the phone and call Alex and discuss the pros/cons - he'll point you in the right direction. Whatever you choose, just do it! It's a blast and you won't look back!


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Hi Todd,
Pat and I have owned both a Fandango 26er and a Ventana ECDM 26er.We have ridden a Fandango 29er also. From the captains perspective I did not find any difference in the two 26er tandems as the ECDM and FandangoDC9 were set up exactly the same from Alex. Pat rode the thudbuster for a while and seemed pretty content until we had the oppertunity to ride a friends ECDM thru some rock gardens we had just completed on the Fandango. Her immediate response was "we are getting one of these!" Who am I to argue! Having owned the Ventana for a couple of years now I would say its the most comfortable and versatile choice. We also rode the Fandango 29er and my opinion is if you are after a XC type race bike than that would be my choice. I haven't ridden the 29er ECDM but there are a few owners of them on here. Whatever your choice Alex will provide plenty of honest information and a quality build at a reasonable price. Having a willing stoker will make the experience even more enjoyable. Good luck and let us know what you decide.
Ed and Pat Gifford
the Snot Rocket tandem


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

We have owned both.

The ECDM 26 is capable of some pretty stupid fast speeds when gravity helps. 

Our Fandango was great at XC, but got unsettled at higher speeds on rough terrain.

Jeanne rode a Thudbuster LT for many miles also.

Like Ed and Pat, comfort and injuries was a reason for selling the Fandango. We loved it and did not want to sell it.

We now enjoy the ECDM for all of our off-road tandeming.

As for the 26 vs 29 choice. I still to this day have never had the front end tracking confidence in a 29, whether single or tandem that a properly setup 26 provides. Our ECDM is a 26. I'm being picky, but it is something I do notice at times other than straight ahead.

PK


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## ybtodd (Jul 6, 2009)

Thanks for the replies - good to get feedback. Since I come from old school (most of my racing miles were full rigid - hey you kids, get off my lawn!), I'm comfortable with 26" and feel like on a tandem it probably is a stronger wheel with less flex relative to a 29". I've never been a fan of suspension seat posts as the distance/angle to the pedal changes and that gives my knees fits. My wife has younger knees but she's starting to feel some wear and tear from running.

Sounds like I'm talking myself into an ECDM in 26". I need to spend some time on the new single I'm getting to make sure my knees/back are up for this, but I suspect that is the right course of action. Now just a question of cosmic orange or mango tango :-D


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

The Thudbuster LT is not bad in regards to movement if, like a suspension fork or shock, it is setup properly.

The key is to install the proper elastomer stack combination AND to set the preload for very slight sag.

Once set, the movement is minor until needed.

This may take a little bit of test riding, plus don't forget that with each preload change a seat height adjustment is needed.

As for a suspension bike, well, they work well for different reasons.

Both setups can be very good.

In regards to wheels. For me it was more the frame geometry of 26 vs 29 than wheel flex. Properly built 29 wheels are very strong and work fine on a tandem and have minimal weight penalty.

I would add that in regards to flex, the ECDM rear frame has more flex than the 29 wheel when comparing our ECDM vs our previous, and loved Fandango. The suspension does make this less noticed.

Recently we did a group ride on very technical sandy rooted singletrack. Some sections required the steering to full lock to navigate while others were very fast and swoopy. A longtime friend who had not ridden with us on the ECDM commented how much we flexed the ECDM frame.

Everything is a compromise...

PK


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## ybtodd (Jul 6, 2009)

So far so good with the back-on-the-bike experiment. Actually I feared it was over before it started as I managed to tweak my lower back hopping off the bike after doing some cockpit adjustments right after picking up the bike (a FS Salsa). After ice, meds, and a good dose of feeling sorry for myself a friend reminded me that often when his back goes out there are two things that feel good - lying down and riding. So Sunday I decided to do a spin down to the beach with the wife. Today I can still walk (actually back feels better) so full speed ahead with the tandem plans. Even after a short ride I know I'm sold on FS so really is a question of wheel size. In looking at the geometry I'm sort of between a 19 and a 21 (based on TT length). But things change with the wheel sizes so seems that it would be a 21/16 in 26" wheel or a 19/16 in 29" wheel with stem dealing with the TT differences. That is based on captain standover which iirc is important off-road.

Any compelling arguments for 26 vs 29? While 29 is the new standard I don't see 26 going completely away any time soon.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

26" forks and wheels are a deal now and likely will be a for a while. I would expect the DH oriented 26" wheel stuff will be around for a good number of years still. I've heard the more XC/trail oriented 26" forks/wheels are going to be produced less in the near term with manufacturers pushing to 27.5" wheels as the alternative.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

ybtodd said:


> So far so good with the back-on-the-bike experiment. Actually I feared it was over before it started as I managed to tweak my lower back hopping off the bike after doing some cockpit adjustments right after picking up the bike (a FS Salsa). After ice, meds, and a good dose of feeling sorry for myself a friend reminded me that often when his back goes out there are two things that feel good - lying down and riding. So Sunday I decided to do a spin down to the beach with the wife. Today I can still walk (actually back feels better) so full speed ahead with the tandem plans. Even after a short ride I know I'm sold on FS so really is a question of wheel size. In looking at the geometry I'm sort of between a 19 and a 21 (based on TT length). But things change with the wheel sizes so seems that it would be a 21/16 in 26" wheel or a 19/16 in 29" wheel with stem dealing with the TT differences. That is based on captain standover which iirc is important off-road.
> 
> Any compelling arguments for 26 vs 29? While 29 is the new standard I don't see 26 going completely away any time soon.


I'm probably going to regret getting sucked into the 26 vs. 29 debate, but I will add my .02 cents. As former owner of a 26" wheeled ECDM and a current owner of a Fandango 29 and a ECDM 29, I'll say that I am sold on the 29" platform for tandem use. The larger diameter front wheel on a tandem bike just makes sense. We are not able to lift the front end the same way that a single bike can. Being able to roll over objects with a slightly larger diameter wheel DOES help.

I'm sure someone will say that the bigger wheeled bike is more sluggish or that it does not perform with the same precision as its 26" wheeled cousin. Maybe? But I'll take the larger front wheeled tandem ANY day on ANY trail. I rode both the 26" wheeled ECDM and the Fandango back to back for over a year before making the move to sell the 26" bike for the 29". Comparing the Fandango and the 29 ECDM may not be apples to apples either, but it made for real world testing of 26" vs. 29" wheels on the tandem. The answer to me is that we don't own a 26" tandem anymore.

Is 26 going away? Maybe, but not anytime soon. Will 650b catch on? Probably. I don't think anyone can say that there is a new standard, but there is a lot of hype. If you ride different wheel sizes, you will likely find that a having a larger front wheel on the tandem is more profound than riding a larger wheel on a single bike.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

26 v 29 has been discussed a lot here, and first person experience as above is key. One other key is the type of trail you're going to ride. IIRC you mentioned living in SoCal near Santa Monica. Most of our trails in SMMNRA are smooth by national standards. You may not find the advantages of the big wheel to be as great.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> 26 v 29 has been discussed a lot here, and first person experience as above is key. One other key is the type of trail you're going to ride. IIRC you mentioned living in SoCal near Santa Monica. Most of our trails in SMMNRA are smooth by national standards. You may not find the advantages of the big wheel to be as great.


I would respectfully disagree. The 29" wheels also roll faster over smooth terrain as well. So if the trail is relatively "open" in nature without lots of tight turns and technical features, the 29" wheel would be faster than the 26" wheel. Just my .02.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Fair enough. I haven't ridden a 29" tandem. My time on a 29" single hasn't been extensive, either, such that it might apply.


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## ybtodd (Jul 6, 2009)

Well after discussion with Alex and doing some measurements on my existing rides looks like the winning combination will be 19/16 with 29" wheels. I'm a bit in-between the 19 and 21 I think, but better to err on having more stand over and I can always do a bit of layback on the seat post and a longer stem if I want a bit more room. Thanks for all the input here - always hard to buy without riding but it should be in the ballpark.


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

I have to agree with Alex. The brief time we rode a 29er Fandango at AORTA it was noticable how much faster and easier the bigger wheels rolled. We chose 26 wheels on our ECDM because Sherwood wasn't offering a 29 option then. We also ride tight techy terrain occasionally and wasn't sure how the bigger wheels would handle it. We are very happy with the all around capabilities of our ECDM. However ,if we were" in the market " to add to our stable it would be a Fandango 29er probably coupled. Good luck with your choice.
Ed and Pat Gifford
the Snot Rocket tandem


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

ybtodd said:


> Well after discussion with Alex and doing some measurements on my existing rides looks like the winning combination will be 19/16 with 29" wheels. I'm a bit in-between the 19 and 21 I think, but better to err on having more stand over and I can always do a bit of layback on the seat post and a longer stem if I want a bit more room. Thanks for all the input here - always hard to buy without riding but it should be in the ballpark.


Todd,

Our trails here in north ga are almost all tight, narrow, rocky, root infested and...well, technical. While it took me some time to make the transition to 29" wheels on my single bike (trek Stache), it took no time on our new Fandango tandem. Given the open and smooth(er) terrain you described, it sounds like you made the right choice!

Tell us how you spec'd out your build.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Both bikes are very nice. Each bike excells in certain specific conditions. Neither bike is uncapable of being ridden in either technical trails or fast open trails.

We know since we have owned both and it was not uncommon to choose a specific weapon for the days riding based on where we planned to ride.

One thing that often is failed to be mentioned, is you are, when comparing a Fandango to an ECDM are comparing a full suspension vs a hardtail.

Jeanne and I will (would in ref to the Fandango since it was sold) ride very technical drops, or fast downhills with far more confidence on 26 wheels and rear suspension. On more open flatter or climbing smoother terrain the Fandango ruled. Once you add bumps larger than the tires size, full suspension is faster since you just don't slow down. We hammer across trail features that would have us choosing different lines on the hardtail.

Which bike is better, neither. FWIW, we rode the Fandango far more than the ECDM when we had both bikes. It was our go to machine until we became really old and semi injured.

As a captain, and suspension and chassis geek, I notice stupid details about how bikes handle. As I still will state, the 26 geometry works better when the bike is leaned over or carving corners. In a straight line there is not much difference. The saving grace of a 29 geometry is the tire having more grip.

Again both are great bikes. With thousands of miles on both, and setup notes, ride log data to back it up, I'll say it again both are great and each can do certain things better than the other.

It's is obvious Dan and his stoker (DS2199) and our team are diverging on which is best. If we lived where they do, our opinion would likely be the same as his. Possibly if team DS lived here in South Florida or even in the SE USA, they may prefer a different setup.

Again, both wheel sizes are workable. and team DS has the ability to compare all. A 26 ECDM to a 29 ECDM and a Fandango.

PK


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## ybtodd (Jul 6, 2009)

mhopton said:


> Tell us how you spec'd out your build.


Pretty much the straight "Premium build kit" that Alex has. Much as I love Chris King stuff the check I'm writing will be big enough as it is. I've had good luck with the X7/X9 stuff and figure the Hope/Magura should be good enough for wheels and brakes.

I finally got the new 29'er FS single on dirt today and have to say that I'm liking it a lot - especially my back. My wife was on her bike she's looking forward to the prospect of being on the back of the tandem, especially not having to worry about bike control on descents (not her strong point).


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## abikerider (May 8, 2007)

*Compatability Issues of shadow derailleur on older ECDM with rear-facing dropouts*

I tried installing an SLX shadow derailleur on my 2001 ECDM with rear-facing dropouts. The problem is there is a humpback near the mounting bolt that interferes with rear wheel removal. See the attached picture. I am tempted to grind the humpback down but it might serve an important function. Any opinions about what to do? I posted this question in the tandem forum but this ECDM thread seems more appropriate.









Well I went ahead and ground down some of the hump and am now able to take the wheel on and off so the problem is solved. I didn't have to take too much off so I'm pretty sure I have not compromised the strength. I hope this is useful to others.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

We rode in Fruita, Rustler Loop, and tried a camera mounted to the stoker bar. The clip is kind of long at 9:34 and it just raw video uploaded with kinda low res. Anyway we are on our ECDM 29er having a good time.


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

Hope you had a good time. We ride that area quite a bit on tandem, sometimes as a couple, sometimes with my 7-year-old stoker. Good fun!


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

ybtodd said:


> Well after discussion with Alex and doing some measurements on my existing rides looks like the winning combination will be 19/16 with 29" wheels. I'm a bit in-between the 19 and 21 I think, but better to err on having more stand over and I can always do a bit of layback on the seat post and a longer stem if I want a bit more room. Thanks for all the input here - always hard to buy without riding but it should be in the ballpark.


I am likely mistaken, but I believe Sherwood will build a semi-custom 19" with a top tube from a 21."

Should get you the standover you want with the length you need.

On the other hand maybe that was only on the 26" wheels.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Thanks for posting! I have yet to get a decent pov video on the tandem. I just don't have the patience to mess around with getting the camera set up right and editing the video.

Eric, can you explain the shifting configuration on your ECDM? I was not sure what I was looking at in th video.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> Thanks for posting! I have yet to get a decent pov video on the tandem. I just don't have the patience to mess around with getting the camera set up right and editing the video.
> 
> Eric, can you explain the shifting configuration on your ECDM? I was not sure what I was looking at in th video.


I got the impression he was locking and unlocking suspension.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ebnelson said:


> We rode in Fruita, Rustler Loop, and tried a camera mounted to the stoker bar. The clip is kind of long at 9:34 and it just raw video uploaded with kinda low res. Anyway we are on our ECDM 29er having a good time.


What a contrast of trail compared to an East Coast trail.

PK


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

ds2199 said:


> Thanks for posting! I have yet to get a decent pov video on the tandem. I just don't have the patience to mess around with getting the camera set up right and editing the video.
> 
> Eric, can you explain the shifting configuration on your ECDM? I was not sure what I was looking at in th video.


We blew it today the camera battery died before the Ambram's Ridge descent in Eagle.

The funny levers on the top of the bar you are watching me play with are the CTD (climb, trail, descend) lever for the Fox fork and shock. Yes, I do adjust them often! The fork feels really soft with any pedal effort in trail or descend, but good for climbing seated on the climb mode. It still bobs a lot standing in climb mode. I like the camera angle to watch the fork movement. Its amazing how much fork movement there is on rocky trails.

Our shifting is still 3x10 XTR. 24x34 is our easy gear (don't tell Traci they make a 36!) ;-) One of these days I'd like to try a XX1 setup or similar.

Eric


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

ebnelson said:


> ....
> 
> Our shifting is still 3x10 XTR. 24x34 is our easy gear (don't tell Traci they make a 36!) ;-) One of these days I'd like to try a XX1 setup or similar.
> 
> Eric


Wow! You guys are strong!! I won't tell Traci...

I am a bit ashamed to say that we have 22-36 for our low gear on the 29" wheels. And we use that low gear a lot!


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

We suffered climbing up a very steep, and loose, forest road today. Traci had been on an anti climbing kick after straining herself on the road tandem. See seems better now. I still haven't told her we are racing Mt Evans!


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

ds2199 said:


> Wow! You guys are strong!! I won't tell Traci...
> 
> I am a bit ashamed to say that we have 22-36 for our low gear on the 29" wheels. And we use that low gear a lot!


You have the right gearing for Little Frenchy next month.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Eric, any chance of some photos of the camera mounting on the ECDM? 

I did some footage of a road tandem event last fall with a similar mount location.

I am really fearful to rip off the camera on our trails with all the trees but your vantage point off-road is pretty nice.

PK


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

I used a Contour camera with the strap on mount on the outside of the stoker bull horn bar. Yes, there is a risk of tearing off the camera. We rode a very narrow trail in Carbondale and the camera was OK. I brushed it on small branches a couple of times but no hard hits yet. A crash would be bad for the camera and riders!


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

I moved the camera to the drive side of the bike so I'm less likely to bump it getting off/on the bike. The camera view is cool since the trail and front of the bike are in view at the same time and this is much more interesting than the helmet cam view that is often posted.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

The ECDM 29 in Carbondale on the Porcupine trail. I uploaded in HD this time 



 The camera is still on the left side of the bike. I will put the video up in three sections. As we get lower down the trail it gets narrower. The camera hits a couple of twigs but nothing to knock the view angle or do any damage to the camera.


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## TaitettaVille (Jul 10, 2012)

I am considering to change our RS Pike 454 140mm (a-c 515mm) to RS Lyrik 2-Step air 160mm (a-c 545mm). What I understand, Lyrik is little bit stiffer than Pike. There is 30mm difference in axle to crown measurements. I think it would be game changer on solo bikes, but how about on ECDM? Does it change riding geometry radically or is the change more subtle? ECDM frames are for 140mm forks, but has anyone tried to use 160 or longer forks?


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## Ciclistagonzo (Dec 10, 2001)

TaitettaVille said:


> I am considering to change our RS Pike 454 140mm (a-c 515mm) to RS Lyrik 2-Step air 160mm (a-c 545mm). What I understand, Lyrik is little bit stiffer than Pike. There is 30mm difference in axle to crown measurements. I think it would be game changer on solo bikes, but how about on ECDM? Does it change riding geometry radically or is the change more subtle? ECDM frames are for 140mm forks, but has anyone tried to use 160 or longer forks?


I think you are off by about 20mm on the designed travel the ECDM's are made for currently and about 40mm off for older gen models. I believe (Alex a litte help?) up until 2012, ECDM's were designed for 100mm travel so about 470mm A to C, I know my 2010 is. The frame can handle 160mm frames no problem, I believe Trails4two runs a 66. and PMK is running a modded Fox 40 so that's not too big an issue, but I wanted to make sure you were aware that on older frames it would change the geometry more than current model. Website says 493mm A to C so looks like he designed the geo for 120mm forks. Having said that, how much will it change the GEO? Not a ton, since the wheelbase is 72" plus vs 42" ish for a single bike the old addage 20mm=one degree is more like 35= 1 degree on Tandems. I think the most significant change will be at the BB, my quick geometry says the Captains BB will rise up about 2/3 of what the A to C difference is. (So will standover). BTW, I own a Pike 454 and a Lyrik, both are good forks, and the Lyrik with 35mm is quite a bit stiffer than the Pike. Also, if you have a solo air Lyrik, you can add the spacers to the Air spring side and lower the travel on the Lyrik. (Which stiffens it up more as it will have more Stanchion overlap.)


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

We run a 180mm fork. Not because we need that much travel, but because I wanted a stiffer fork than our old 66SL and the current forks with bigger stantion diameters have more travel. We're a 360lb team, plus gear. We've also never had the bike with a 100mm fork, so can't really comment on the changes over what it was designed for.

I'd be surprised if you really noticed an additional 20mm on a tandem, though.


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## TaitettaVille (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks ciclistagonzo and Okayfine. 

I think we are goin going to get Lyrik 2-step 160mm and try it for a few rides. It's a bargain, so it would be shame to let it slip through our hands. If it doesn't fit our riding style, we change Pike 454 back or convert it to coil u-turn (120-160mm).

Fortunately we have potential buyers for both forks already, so economic damage won't be huge.

I am very aware of my single bikes geometry and I had somekind of mtb-rage situation (  )when I replaced 100mm for 120mm on my 29er. It didn't climb at all. Front wheel was all over the trail. On ECDM I am worried about our ability to negotiate tighter sections of our favorite trails. Our favorite trails are very narrow (trees and boulders) with tight corners.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

For comparison, our frame is a 2006 with a modified Fox40 Kashima.

Fork / wheel travel is 145mm.

Axle to crown measured quickly with a tape measure and wheel installed is 508mm.

Geometry numbers do matter, but other factors play in also. Obviously fork sag is important, spring rate is hugely important, rear sag seems more critical than front sag, and finally, is there enough front grip to plain old fashioned make the bike turn.

It is all the dynamics compiled together, a opposed to published reference data. That is basically a good guideline or starting point. Consider a proper length fork with a light spring, geometry goes wrong, a long fork with a firm spring can go wrong, a soft squishy rear setup may wallow and bring the best fork to it's knees. There is more to a good setup, but the key is finding a balance of travel needed, spring rate, mid stroke support, no mechanical binding, minimal flex and proper rear setup, coupled to the ground with a good tire setup.

Also, if you run a longer travel fork. They can tend to wallow and become vague, not always, but it can happen especially in soft terrain.

The best tandem fork is waiting to be built.

PK


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

PMK said:


> For comparison, our frame is a 2006 with a modified Fox40 Kashima.
> 
> Fork / wheel travel is 145mm.
> 
> ...


Paul,

Do you know if there are fox 40s that would not work for the ecdm? By that I mean not easily shortened and modded for use on the Ventana?

I've been watching eBay, and thinking a used 40, then sent for overhaul, shortening and re-valving, if needed. I've used Push before. But are there shops you would recommend to do the needed work on a fox 40?

New prices are stratospheric, but some of the used Foxes are doable.

Thanks,
Charlie


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

Dupe deleted


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

Delete dupe


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

PMK said:


> ....
> 
> a long fork with a firm spring can go wrong, a soft squishy rear setup may wallow and bring the best fork to it's knees. There is more to a good setup, ...
> 
> PK


What is happening here? How does a poor setup at the rear effect the fork so much? I've experienced it, and the opposite -- a poorly performing fork, but do t understand the interrelationship. ???


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

*Summer Maintenance*

Did some additional maintenance work on the ECdM yesterday, prompted by a "strange noise" issue on our Wednesday afternoon ride. Only happened during pedaling so I could rule out the hub (thank goodness!). Finished our ride and only cut it a bit short, but got the bike back home and on the stand. Took the stoker cranks off and gave the bottom bracket a twist. Hmm, less noisy than when we were riding, but similar sound/feel. Replaced the BB with another - we're on ISIS cranks, and since SKF doesn't make their nice ISIS BB any more, I'm stuck with Truvativ Gigipipe DH parts. This last one went 2-3 years.

While I was at it, I changed out the FD and cable/housing. I hadn't changed the front cable/housing since I put the bike together in 2/2011, so it was time. Hate the SRAM trigger shifters for changing cables, since you have to pop the whole thing apart (and I have to move my brake levers to get to the SRAM shifter bolts). FD came out because it was original to our original bike in 2007, and I had a spare Deore I bought for $6 a couple years ago.

New sync chain (measured the old one at 1/8" and I'm trying to save the sync rings, so $13 in new chains isn't a big price to pay). Wish I would have measured the chain before I cleaned and lubed it earlier this week.

And a new captain's seat, since my Fizik has started to crack.

All of which gave me an excuse to order more parts to keep stock up for the next failure! :thumbsup:


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

reamer41 said:


> What is happening here? How does a poor setup at the rear effect the fork so much? I've experienced it, and the opposite -- a poorly performing fork, but do t understand the interrelationship. ???


The technical word is called balance. Balance i spring rate, balance of sag front to rear which is not the same at both ends in many cases, balance of the midstroke spring rate, balance of the low speed compression and high speed compression, proper suspension design for the frames front geometry, balance of grip.

Capped off by not just one rider but two.

In simplest terms, un balance causes a forward to aft pitching which creates havoc for the other end suspension to deal with.

PK

Some items we have no control over


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

PMK;10501974.
In simplest terms said:


> That makes sense, thanks.


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## Stevoo (Mar 9, 2007)

What size ISIS BB do you need? I have two darn near new SKF BB's in 118 that I will let go cheap. I would rather see them in use than collecting dust in my garage.

I had to go to 113 for proper chain line on my Ellsworth so the 118's are extra.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

We run modified Truvative BB's, same as yours on the Co-Motion. If you don't convert to the SKS, send a PM and I'll explain the mods.

PK


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Hey Stevoo, thanks for the offer! ECdMs take 113, though.:madman:

PMing Paul.


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## Stevoo (Mar 9, 2007)

You can still get the SKF bottom brackets at Compass Bicycles. I believe that is were I got my most recent ones. Just found them again on the web. They are still offered.
At $150 each they are not cheap but they have proven to last a long time.


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## ybtodd (Jul 6, 2009)

Finally back in the tandem saddle. My wife had never ridden one before and this was a roll of the dice but after two rides in the dirt it is a total hit. She was never really comfortable riding off-road before but now her quote is, "this is great - I don't have to worry about anything."

Happy stoker. The FS was the right choice - this thing is a pleasure to ride. Only thing it can't really do is quick changes of direction at-speed. But not sure any tandem does that especially well. Thanks to Alex for the great build.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Mountain Bikings best kept secret...tandeming off-road.

PK


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

ybtodd said:


> Finally back in the tandem saddle. My wife had never ridden one before and this was a roll of the dice but after two rides in the dirt it is a total hit. She was never really comfortable riding off-road before but now her quote is, "this is great - I don't have to worry about anything."
> 
> Happy stoker. The FS was the right choice - this thing is a pleasure to ride. Only thing it can't really do is quick changes of direction at-speed. But not sure any tandem does that especially well. Thanks to Alex for the great build.


Agree with PMK. We rode in miserable weather today on forest service roads just to get out in our tandem.

Congrats...and, man is that orange sharp!

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## ybtodd (Jul 6, 2009)

Thanks - the input from everyone here was quite useful. We got her proper shoes and pedals this afternoon which has opened her eyes (she never ran clipless before). We rode down to the local coffee place as we met 6 years ago at a coffee place and almost got hit twice. Reminded me why I hate riding on pavement these days.

I'm still dialing in position. I think I need another cm of stem length and want to go to a layback post so I can get behind the pedals a bit more. The other thing I need to add are some bar ends as I hate riding without them. I think I'm going to try the Ergon ones for grip shift.

Towards the end of the ride back home I was coming down a steep pavement hill and the rear brake started chattering (Magura). I'm still a disc newbie - they still bedding in or is the noise something I need to sort out? I'll see if it comes back tomorrow.


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

mhopton said:


> Congrats...and, man is that orange sharp!


That orange IS sharp!
(Same as mine.)
Those 29" wheel are sharp too. I've got a 26er that otherwise looks about the same. Since I got a 29er solo bike I've been jonesing for a 29er tandem.

Have a great time on it!


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

ybtodd said:


> the rear brake started chattering (Magura). I'm still a disc newbie - they still bedding in or is the noise something I need to sort out? I'll see if it comes back tomorrow.


There are some common issues with brakes, specifically the rear brakes, on ECdMs. We also used to have a at-times violent rear brake vibration, but all I needed to do was switch pad compounds from sintered to organic. Have run quite a few different brands of pads in the back since with no real return of the issue.

There are the usual tips to try - make sure the caliper is aligned, the disc and pads are free of contaminates, etc. Alex may also have some tips, if he's sending a lot of bikes out with the same brakes.

Our vibration/noise was only after the brake was hot, but it was bad enough we couldn't use the rear brake until it cooled, problematic for obvious reasons. Other's have tried a change of pad and still had the issue, but it's where I'd start since I had success.

Where are you guys based?


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## ybtodd (Jul 6, 2009)

SoCal. It gets warm here and I was doing some hard stops on a downhill to try and finish off bedding. Probably warmed it up a bit. I'll just do typical riding from now on and see it if pops up again. If so I'll try the pad swap.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

We have a SoCal Teams thread going on. You should post up a ride offer, or a region you're willing to travel for rides and other teams will follow. We're in Thousand Oaks area, so western Santa Monica Mountains.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Okayfine said:


> Did some additional maintenance work on the ECdM yesterday, prompted by a "strange noise" issue on our Wednesday afternoon ride. Only happened during pedaling so I could rule out the hub (thank goodness!).


Or could I? Turns out the noise that prompted the stocker BB R&R WAS actually coming from the CK rear hub after all. I "fixed" it when I took things apart to look, but it would come back during the next ride. After a bit more troubleshooting I noticed the large drive-side bearing would slip in and out of the hub, when it should be an interference fit. I still don't understand how that could result in the noise we got, but in talking with Chris King, they were familiar with the issue.

They say high spoke tension can pull the hub shell slightly, embiggening the tolerance for the DS bearing. Their fix is to send the wheel up to them and they'll fit a larger DS bearing. We got the wheel back in a little over a week and CK even upgraded the bearing adjuster cup to their new design with a hole for a 2.5mm Allen wrench to provide leverage for adjustment. Nice!

They also included a caution to have the spoke tension dialed down to their spec range. I took the wheel in to the local shop to have them check and adjust it...but the spoke tension was already within the range CK specifies, albeit at the very top of the range. So now I'm confused as to the original cause of the problem. We have a history with rear hubs on this bike, but the CK hub was supposed to take care of those issues. Two years left on the five year warranty...


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

Okayfine said:


> Or could I? Turns out the noise that prompted the stocker BB R&R WAS actually coming from the CK rear hub after all. I "fixed" it when I took things apart to look, but it would come back during the next ride. After a bit more troubleshooting I noticed the large drive-side bearing would slip in and out of the hub, when it should be an interference fit. I still don't understand how that could result in the noise we got, but in talking with Chris King, they were familiar with the issue.
> 
> They say high spoke tension can pull the hub shell slightly, embiggening the tolerance for the DS bearing. Their fix is to send the wheel up to them and they'll fit a larger DS bearing. We got the wheel back in a little over a week and CK even upgraded the bearing adjuster cup to their new design with a hole for a 2.5mm Allen wrench to provide leverage for adjustment. Nice!
> 
> They also included a caution to have the spoke tension dialed down to their spec range. I took the wheel in to the local shop to have them check and adjust it...but the spoke tension was already within the range CK specifies, albeit at the very top of the range. So now I'm confused as to the original cause of the problem. We have a history with rear hubs on this bike, but the CK hub was supposed to take care of those issues. Two years left on the five year warranty...


Wow, that's an interesting one. I've had only great luck with CK products. Sorry to hear of your issue. At least they gave you a minor upgrade.

I've also gotten warranty service on a headset that was well outside the warranty. They stand behind their products.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

They absolutely do stand behind their products. I'd have just liked a little more information about the whole thing so I can prevent a repeat.


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> Or could I? Turns out the noise that prompted the stocker BB R&R WAS actually coming from the CK rear hub after all. I "fixed" it when I took things apart to look, but it would come back during the next ride. After a bit more troubleshooting I noticed the large drive-side bearing would slip in and out of the hub, when it should be an interference fit. I still don't understand how that could result in the noise we got, but in talking with Chris King, they were familiar with the issue.
> 
> They say high spoke tension can pull the hub shell slightly, embiggening the tolerance for the DS bearing. Their fix is to send the wheel up to them and they'll fit a larger DS bearing. We got the wheel back in a little over a week and CK even upgraded the bearing adjuster cup to their new design with a hole for a 2.5mm Allen wrench to provide leverage for adjustment. Nice!
> 
> They also included a caution to have the spoke tension dialed down to their spec range. I took the wheel in to the local shop to have them check and adjust it...but the spoke tension was already within the range CK specifies, albeit at the very top of the range. So now I'm confused as to the original cause of the problem. We have a history with rear hubs on this bike, but the CK hub was supposed to take care of those issues. Two years left on the five year warranty...


I have seen several CK hubs get slop in the bearings after being ridden some, including the last set I built for my commuter bike. That set had sideways slop and strange noises within 30 miles. Sometimes it's quite early in the life of the wheels, and sometimes later. However, the bearing preload collar is there for just that reason. I don't know that it's necessarily a failure as much as a maintenance/adjustment thing with the hubs. After all, as things wear, they will get slack. 
As far as failures, none on CK so far, even after putting them on tandems for 12+ years, so still the best out there, IMO. And I'd be surprised if you needed your warranty on these hubs.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

I didn't have slop in the bearing, I had the entire large drive-side bearing freely slide in and out of the hub bore. As in, take off the non-drive-side bearing adjuster cone and the entire guts would slide right out the drive side (cassette, drive shell, drive rings, spring). This was not a bearing adjustment issue - I had the adjuster as tight as was prudent and within 5 miles I was getting the noise again.

I have the CK special tool to pull the entire hub apart, and I regularly check the bearing adjustment. I've already used the warranty, and since tension was in spec and I've changed nothing, I expect I may have to use it again down the road.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Okayfine said:


> I expect I may have to use it again down the road.


Guess what? The noise is back. I asked my stoker, with hope, if it was perhaps the tire rubbing or something. "No, it's the same noise." :madman:


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

My longtime friend and local bike shop owner decided it would be nice for him and his wife to give tandems a try. They first picked up a used Burley and shortly after gave Ventana a call and built up this ECDM 29.

Pretty unique build as is. He is giving the road cranks a try, along with carbon rims and tubliss setup. The remainder is XX, King hubs and Avid hydraulic brakes.

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

PMK said:


> My longtime friend and local bike shop owner decided it would be nice for him and his wife to give tandems a try. They first picked up a used Burley and shortly after gave Ventana a call and built up this ECDM 29.
> 
> Pretty unique build as is. He is giving the road cranks a try, along with carbon rims and tubliss setup. The remainder is XX, King hubs and Avid hydraulic brakes.
> 
> PK


Nice looking bike there!!!


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

PMK said:


> My longtime friend and local bike shop owner decided it would be nice for him and his wife to give tandems a try. They first picked up a used Burley and shortly after gave Ventana a call and built up this ECDM 29.
> 
> Pretty unique build as is. He is giving the road cranks a try, along with carbon rims and tubliss setup. The remainder is XX, King hubs and Avid hydraulic brakes.
> 
> PK


Love the color!!!
E&P
tSRt


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Ed, understandably, it is obvious you like the color...

They got in the first "shakedown" ride this past weekend. Nothing technical, simply the Lake O ride. A two day event, riding around Lake Okeechobee with as much as possible on the levee. 

Distance was about 122 miles for both days. Saturday started just right, but with a moderate head wind. The mid portion of the ride, saw rain and cooler temps, with continued head wind. Sunday woke to bright clear skies, wind at our backs. This was along the lakes western portion headed North. The west side of the lake is the less improved section with many miles of mowed grass access road for the vehicles.

Not a bad first ride for their new machine. Within the first 20 miles, they had made most of the changes they wanted, between seat, bars and pressure settings.

Without bike fanfare or any green at all...our old school 26 ECDM made a lap of Lake O. 

PK


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Received the rear wheel back from CK HQ. Looks like this time they replaced the axle as well as another large drive side bearing. Looking good on time and weather for lots of riding during the extended Turkey week/ends. Black Friday ain't got nuthin' on brown singletrack.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

As December 13 rolls in, sad to see many parts of the US getting hit with snow or ice.

On a flip side, this is a fun cool time of year for us, so the ECDM logged some more miles on 12/8.

If anyone needs to break the winter and has cycling plans for some off-road down south, let us know and we will see about making something happen.

PK


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Guess what's making noise again? :madman:


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Okayfine said:


> Guess what's making noise again? :madman:


So, third time is the charm. I guess. Last eight months has seen our tandem out of action for 2.5 months due to our CK hub issue. CK had our wheel again and warrantied the hub, but didn't build it. Since they kept on about the spoke tension, I figured they'd have used this to set it up the way they wanted it. Continue to be disappointed in how little information CK passes along (cause, fixes, etc.). Makes it hard to avoid a repeat if I don't know what they think was the original cause.

As it is, the wheel is off at our builder's. Taking the additional downtime to get some spring maintenance done on the bike. New rear pads, new drive chain, new rear tire, might even be time for a rear shock seal kit. Past time for a fork oil change and seals. Everything else looks good for the moment, but I'll need to get some Middleburn sync rings sooner than later.


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## ycookmd (Oct 15, 2009)

Our brief 2-year report:

ECDM 29er
Fork: Fox 34 Talas 110
Drivetrain: Middleburn cranks, XTR F/R derailleurs & shifters
Brakes: XTR F/R levers & calipers, XT 203mm rotors
Wheels: King hubs 32H to Stan's Flow rims - hand built by my stoker
Tires: Specialized FastTrak Control F/R 40 PSI tubeless

Our tandem rides are limited to longer "gravel grinder" events about 4 times per year. The fork works well for these courses, which include some pretty rough double track but no technically difficult trail. We have had no problems with the wheels. The tires generally perform nicely on the gravel, though we've suffered a slice or two.

Two issues noted:
1. The Middleburn chainrings did not work well with the XTR derailleur and Shimano chain. Lorinda replaced the big ring with a DynaSys ring (matching BCD) and the ramps & pins perform much better. Shifting is great now.
2. Rear braking is spongier than I'd like, though not inadequate. She's improved this by intermittently bleeding the brakes but the issue persists. She thinks this may be a factor of hose length. Since her original bike build, Shimano has released new brake hose that may take care of the issue but she hasn't had time to install it. We had planned to test it out at Kanza, but probably won't make it this year.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

ycookmd said:


> Our brief 2-year report:
> 
> ECDM 29er
> Fork: Fox 34 Talas 110
> ...


In regards to the brakes, yes it could be the hose is soft and expanding when pressure is applied. A simple addition to the bleed process is to degas the fluid prior to bleeding. Take a strong glass jar with a tight sealed lid. Mason type jar can work. Put the brake fluid inside. Then close the lid and apply 28" or more vacuum to the jars interior. Let it sit under vacuum for several minutes. This will remove micro bubbles from the fluid and may firm the system.

Again, it may be the hose, but this is easy. Plus if you change the hose, the degas method can be used then also.

PK


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

Paul, that's good info. For the home mechanic, how woul you go about applying vacuum to the mason jar?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Mityvac


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

I've got a mityvac but can't think of how to use it to pressurize a mason jar....

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Okayfine said:


> Mityvac


exactly

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

mhopton said:


> I've got a mityvac but can't think of how to use it to pressurize a mason jar....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Small hole in the top, then use the suction cup attachment. You will be pulling vacuum, not pressure. Then use the degassed fluid in the brake system. If possible, vacuum bleed the brake system.

PK


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

brilliant Paul...


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Different versions of the Mityvac will allow pressure as well, but as Paul indicated, you'll just be pulling vacuum.


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

Fitting a braided rear hose fixed my spongie rear brake.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

switchbacktrog said:


> Fitting a braided rear hose fixed my spongie rear brake.


Agree 100%, however most of the better brakes have good quality hoses as oem. FWIW, when we got our ECDM, it had Magura brakes front and rear. They came with braided stainless hoses. Others had mentioned that the brakes often were soft and vague. I totally purged the existing fluid. The replacement fluid was degassed and bled into the brake system. With the large rotor on the front at 210mm and smaller rear rotor at 185(?)mm, the bike had no issues stopping after a proper bleed.

Some people may not realize that this is also how I bleed the clutch on my KTM250exc, but also the rear shock is bleed under vacuum. It is pretty crazy how much air as micro bubbles is in fluid that you can not see.

Yes a better hose is always best, possibly, when the new hose was installed, the bleed with fresh fluid became a factor also.

If you run hydraulic brakes, you might consider bleeding the rear often and the front with the rear or every other rear bleed. A fresh bleed and new fluid is important for heavily used brakes.

PK


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

While I didn't degas the fluid, I did have some sponginess in my Hope brakes. The Hopes use DOT 5.1 fluid, which turned out to be somewhat difficult to find - even the local moto shops didn't carry it. The Hopes bled just like a traditional car system; take off the cover of the master cylinder, fill, squeeze lever 5 times and hold tight, crack the nipple at the caliper briefly and retighten before introducing air in the caliper. Repeat until you're satisfied and at all costs don't let the master cylinder get too low on fluid. 

For the rear, I completely flushed the system with fresh fluid - I was amazed at the color and amount of dirt in the system. There's obviously a lot of heat at the caliper that degrades the fluid, etc.

With cleaned, lubed calipers, fresh sintered pads and cleaned rotors, I do believe the system is better than when new as there was always the requirement to "pump up" the brakes when starting a ride. No longer is that needed.



Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Been putting some decent miles on the Bigfoot recently. Yesterday we tried a trail we've avoided for a while due to poor trail conditions. Guadalasco is a single track trail with 9 switchbacks over a little less than 3 miles of climbing. Number 10 on the left on this map:

Point Mugu State Park Trail Map and Descriptions

Over the years we've gone from clearing some of the switchbacks to clearing all of them, depending on the trail conditions. Gave it another shot yesterday and there's been a lot of nice trailwork done. We cleared all the switches, though not without some effort. Our bike ran great; we haven't had any issues with anything since dealing with the rear hub earlier this year.

Summer maintenance is almost here. Going to need to look at the fork at some point, brake pads are getting a bit thin, etc.


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

I haven't re-read the entire thread, but I'm interested in thoughts on other rear shocks for the ECDM. We are not a light team, and the Fox RP23 has never been very good for us. Wondering about a coil spring, or maybe a shock from Cane Creek. Any one with experiences re rear shocks out there?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

reamer41 said:


> I haven't re-read the entire thread, but I'm interested in thoughts on other rear shocks for the ECDM. We are not a light team, and the Fox RP23 has never been very good for us. Wondering about a coil spring, or maybe a shock from Cane Creek. Any one with experiences re rear shocks out there?


Our Fox RP23 saw a few miles before I had to go inside it and revalve the rebound damping. It was never very good in my testing and opinion. We can ride it but there is better.

I have not used a Cane Creek on the ECDM. I know the technology but again have not tested one.

During AORTA #1 I had a moment to talk with Sherwood regarding how he designed the rear suspension linkage location points and leverage ratio. He advised that the frames were designed to be airsprung.

Going forward, during AORTA#1 we did not own either an ECDM or Fandango. About two months later we had our Ventana and shortly after that got the Fandango together.

As mention, early rides on the ECDM had the rebound adjuster fully closed, so I revalved the rear shock. The revalve made the shock far better but in the end, the RP23 sits in the spares box.

My rear shock of choice is the early series of the DHX 5.0 with the round Pro Pedal knob and not the lever.

The DHX 5.0 must run the small air sleeve or somehow reduce the air volume. With the knob style Pro pedal we have more of a compression adjuster rather than a lockout. There are many more clicks to chose from. For us, we never rode the RP locked out, and with the DHX 5.0, the stoker can make an on the fly setting changes when needed. Climbing for us, without a lockout has never been a problem and in my opinion allows the wheel to follow loose terrain better.

Also, with the stoker easily adjusting the rear compression, it allows for me to adjust front fork compression on the fly, then she can adjust rear compression (sometimes based on settings I ask for) and within a few minutes, the suspension is dialed in for location and dirt we ride that day.

FWIW, seldom is the rebound adjuster moved after a good setting is reached. Most adjustments are compression related and deal with square edge bumps or rolling type terrain. Both are easily handled by the old style DHX 5.0.

As you look, consider FOX has a serious marketing team. Often they come up with new names of the same thing. Or make a minor change and call it something new.

FWIW, you are best to look into rear shocks with a piggyback style rezzy. This style better controls pressure applied to move the rezzy piston. Non Rezzy shocks have a difficult time on big hits or large shock shaft movements and are prone to cavitate. Also, the non rezzy shocks are super critical to gas pressure to prevent cavitation, require 400 PSI vs the rezzy style which needs 150 PSI. This reduces harshness on small bumps, but has adjustable pressure to help control bottoming.

All the best with your search.

PK


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

reamer41 said:


> I haven't re-read the entire thread, but I'm interested in thoughts on other rear shocks for the ECDM. We are not a light team, and the Fox RP23 has never been very good for us. Wondering about a coil spring, or maybe a shock from Cane Creek. Any one with experiences re rear shocks out there?


I like Cane Creek's DBInline Air. I had them build me one with ECDM dimensions, as I think it's a great platform for fine-tuning the ride. The Fox is good if you spend some time getting it set up; not sure if the CC will be noticeably better or not.


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

Paul, Alex, thanks for your comments!

I've spent a lot of time with the Fox, including a revalve & rebuild by Push. Didn't seem really any better. I'm not comfortable trying to revalve the shock as its way above my level of expertise.

I may try a DB inline on my solo bike, a Santa Cruz Tallboy LT, and if that works well look for one for the ECDM or the CC DB Air.


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## Bergrin (Jul 16, 2014)

Our new to us ECDM

2002ish ECDM, new enough to have disc tabs, old enough to also have v-brake posts. 
Fork: 2012 Rock SHox Totem with 40% sag
Components: grab bag from this decade and the last. New saint brakes, and an 8speed xtr drivetrain (with a huge big ring on the triple).

We ride our ECDM on just about everything. After taking our first tandem (KHS) down some singletrack she was hooked on technical singletrack and I'm more than happy to oblige. She's even willing to risk a crash when we try stuff I'm not 100% sure about (no hard crashes yet though). We ride it both days every weekend and the tires on my old single bikes are starting to have much longer lifespans.

No real issues with the bike yet. We bent the lowest gear on the cog from putting out too much torque on a steep switchback, and sometimes I feel more lateral flex in the bike than I would prefer but I assume that's normal with tandems.

This has got to be the funnest bikes I've ridden in years. Every time we take it out (about three months now) it puts a smile on my face as I can't believe the bike is capable of getting through some of the trails we take it on. The shared enjoyment and team effort of the tandem has also done nothing but made me enjoy and appreciate my SO more than ever.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Welcome and congrats on the bike and the enjoyment. I think everyone else here agrees with what you two have discovered:thumbsup:

Ventana tandem frames aren't typically regarded as being flexy. I have a Burley steel road tandem, and that IS flexy, so I'm familiar with the sensations. Could have more to do with suspension settings, among other things. I had a (brief?) problem with our rear shock on one ride that made the bike feel VERY squirrly at the back, borderline unrideable.


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

I tried my 7.8$5 x 2.25" shock in the ECDM the other day. There was seat stay to seat tube contact at or near full compression of the shock. This was with the 2.5:1 rockers. I haven't been able to dig the original rockers out of storage yet. 

A surprise. When taking the stock shock off I fount The top shock mount hardware was broken in 2, and the mounting bolt was substantially bent. Thankfully I had a donor-bike I could borrow from... I'll post a picture of the broken parts.


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)




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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

PMK has talked about bending the upper shock bolt and had ordered up some spares. He may still have some.


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

Okayfine said:


> PMK has talked about bending the upper shock bolt and had ordered up some spares. He may still have some.


I'm planning g to get a Cane Creek shock, which I believe comes with its own hardware (bolt too? IDK). So for the time being ill use my loaner part.

Paul, is your replacement bolts any stronger? Is the original stainless?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

I have US made high quality bolts. I replaced the shock mount and all the pivots.

Had to buy full boxes and have a bunch left.

PK


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

Mounted up my new shock today. I have yet to ride it due to stoker availability.

Cane Creek DB Air CS.

I will report results


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Very Very Nice...
PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

This may be worth of a new thread. Looking forward to hear the details on this shock!


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## TandemNut (Mar 12, 2004)

I believe that CC may become the stock shock on ECDM's at some point...


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## giff07 (Jun 7, 2010)

Yes please reamer41, Do tell!!
Ed and Pat
the Snot Rocket tandem


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

TandemNut said:


> I believe that CC may become the stock shock on ECDM's at some point...


Recently read that the Cane Creeks are an option on some of the Ventana single bike models.

PK


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

I've got a CC BB Inline on my Santa Cruz Tallboy LT and it a huge improvement over the Fox RP23. 

I'll start a new thread with my ride report(s). We should be going out imminently.


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## leszazas (May 16, 2007)

*ECDM 27.5 with electrical assistance*

After a Rohloff I'm trying an electrical rear wheel on my ECDM 27.5
I've discovered electrical assistance on my HiBike n'duro. It's really fun to go faster and further for the same amount of time while still pedaling and having a fitness improvement. With that you can have bigger wheel and a bigger fork (let say a Fox 40) without worrying about weight penality.

My only worry if the freewheel will take the abuse of a tandem crew..... will see, I still have my Rohloff ready !!!

Laurent


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

*Now in 5" Travel "Beast Mode"*









5" rockers installed. Hopefully dry trails by the end of the week to try it out.


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

Sweet! We have been running 5" for about 6 years now. I actually like the rear suspension compression rate better in long travel.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

The bike has been good on ledgey rock drops, but should be better now. I wanted to lengthen the fork travel from 120 to 140 mm after riding the Captain Ahab trail in Moab. We had to get off the bike around 15 times with many times just not being sure if the bike would clear a drop or step up. Now we'll only have to get off the bike 12 times on Ahab.  I'll carry a shock pump for tuning on the first couple of rides. If it works out, our benchmark ride will be the Bitterbush Trail at Hall Ranch in Lyons. We ride Hall Ranch but have been using the Antelope Trail to stay clear of Bitterbush.

The stand over clearance is now about as minimal as I can handle with in the driveway. The head angle is just a little bit more slack. I've got to find my angle finder and get a volunteer to help measure the sagged angles and BB height.


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

ebnelson said:


> The stand over clearance is now about as minimal as I can handle with in the driveway. The head angle is just a little bit more slack. I've got to find my angle finder and get a volunteer to help measure the sagged angles and BB height.


I'm assuming that the static stand-over height is 1" higher than standard for the stoker, am I correct?

Is the head angle slacker or steeper? I would have thought it would be steeper with the rear propped-up more.

What size wheels are you using?

I'm running a 140mm fork with 26" wheels and wondered if having 5" rockers would balance the geometry nearer to the design spec. More in this thread http://forums.mtbr.com/tandem-mountain-bikes/ecdm-geometry-925544.html

Does anyone know the cost of the 5" rockers from Ventana?

Sorry for all the questions, but I need as much info as possible before changing anything else geometry wise. I don't want go spending money unnecessarily.........................


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

The 5" rockers are $170 and come with new hardware. The un-sagged stoker BB height is 16.5" and the captain is around 17".  I expect sagged heights to be around 15" for captain and stoker BBs. The bike is a 29er. On flat ground I can get ON/OFF the bike no problem but my nuts are on the top tube for sure. I'm not worried about stand-over but thought I'd mention it.

I pulled 2 travel reduce spacers from our Fox 36 per Fox instructions. I haven't measured the new travel year but expected to raise the front the same amount as the rear. It looks like the front was raised a bit more than the rear. However, the head angle is still pretty steep. I believe it is 71 degrees now /w sag. Going slack HA doesn't work well during slow speed maneuvering for us.


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

I found used rockers from an El Ciclon for about $50. It was a really easy change. It took a while to get the new pressure figured as it went up even more than expected. I noticed no geometry change at all. As I mentioned, I (and my stoker) liked the much more supple feeling of the 5" rear.


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

Trails4Two said:


> I found used rockers from an El Ciclon for about $50. It was a really easy change. It took a while to get the new pressure figured as it went up even more than expected. I noticed no geometry change at all. As I mentioned, I (and my stoker) liked the much more supple feeling of the 5" rear.


Also bought used for 50 bucks.
Did notice and like a higher ride height in the back. Helps as we have longer travel fork.

At our team weight (365-70) found the higher leverage kind of overwhelmed the fox rp23


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## Trails4Two (May 12, 2008)

We also ride a longer travel fork (150-170mm) and thought the front and rear suspension matched better at 5". Our team is about 310 and the RP23 works fine


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

It does seem the higher leverage may get us to pump the RP23 up a bit more. Our team is 250lbs and we normally used 160-180lbs in the shock. I'm excited to get out and experiment with the new rockers. I have no idea whether the rockers from a previous model 26" bike would work with the ECDM 29er. Seems like it would. I was surprised to find that with my lightweight stoker the shock bolt was still straight after almost 3 years of riding rocky terrain and the nearby bike park.


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

What Maxxis tires are you Guys running?
I have been using Conti X-Kings 2.4 and want to try out some Maxxis now...


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

Ardent 2.4. They have been a pretty good all around tire so far.


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

ebnelson said:


> On flat ground I can get ON/OFF the bike no problem but my nuts are on the top tube for sure. I'm not worried about stand-over but thought I'd mention it.


So is it as simple as the un-sagged stand-over height for the stoker reducing by 1" when using the 5" rockers?


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

XC Mike said:


> What Maxxis tires are you Guys running?
> I have been using Conti X-Kings 2.4 and want to try out some Maxxis now...


Summer:
2.25 Cross-Mark on rear
2.4 Ardent on front

Winter:
2.4 Ardent on rear
2.4 Minion DHF on front


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

switchbacktrog said:


> So is it as simple as the un-sagged stand-over height for the stoker reducing by 1" when using the 5" rockers?


It's somewhere between .75-1.0 inch of lost stand over clearance since the rear wheel path isn't vertical. I don't remember the 4" rocker stoker stand over clearance. My stoker has plenty of stand over clearance still with the 5" rockers.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

The 5" linkages really helped in technical climbing and descending on our rides over the weekend. It's nice approaching a rock step up and know that I can punch it up with much less risk of stoker pedal strike. The first couple of larger drops I tried were eye opening too. The bike is a lot more capable in rocky terrain overall. Our more technical trails tend to have tighter switch backs, which is no surprise, so we end up off the bike for those turns. 

We had to raise the rear shock pressure from 165 psi for the 4" linkages to 250 psi for the 5" linkages. The compression damping is now not enough and the rebound had to be increased from all the way backed off up a lot of clicks. We will either retune or replace the rear shock.

On high speed sweeping turns the bike is not as stable but we are probably still going just as fast. Our back tire is a bit worn now so new rubber might help. Retuned rear suspension will probably help a lot too.


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

Thanks for the update, seriously tempted to try the 5" rockers on our 26". A reduction in pedal strikes would be welcome, and perhaps it will provide a better travel balance with the 140mm fork.


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## gnome (Nov 29, 2007)

Hi fellow ECDM owners. Thanks for the interesting thoughts and reading this thread has motivated me to get the 5" rockers which I didn't even realise existed. Thanks for that insight. They arrived today but it will be a few weeks until I can install them but I will give feedback then.
I have a new Fox rear shock which has 57mm travel rather than the standard 50mm so with the 5" rocker that should increase rear travel by 17mm to a total of about 142mm.
I have also recently purchased a new fork and have gone for the FOX 40 which is considerably longer and potentially 203 travel. I am hoping to be able to adjust that back a little. All in all an expensive complete suspension upgrade so I'm keen to see how it all performs.


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

gnome said:


> .
> I have a new Fox rear shock which has 57mm travel rather than the standard 50mm so with the 5" rocker that should increase rear travel by 17mm to a total of about 142mm.


Make sure to cycle the suspension thru it's full range with no air in the shock with that 57mm shock.

I mounted a shock that had the same eye to eye length and 57mm stroke. When I swing the suspension there was hard metal to metal contact. I have the 5" rockers too. Seat stay hit seattube. Needless to say I removed the shock and stuck with a 50mm shock.

--Charlie


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

And/or doublecheck with Ventana. I have an X5 with 5" rockers and it takes the same shock as our ECdM.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

I used the same shock with the 5" rocker. A longer shock eye to eye would jack the stoker BB up even higher when un-sagged. We have an issue with our 5" rockers where the chain rubs the bottom of the front derailleur cage even when sagged if we are more than half way down the cassette when on the smaller 2x chainring. This is a bummer since with our 2x chainring set up we were able to use every gear combo with the 4" rockers. I'm going to play with a XX1 drive train to see if we can live without top end gears.


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## graciejohn (Jun 6, 2015)

Hi guys, what's the current best front fork for the ECDM? Fox 36? Fox 40? White Brothers Loop?

I thought the Fox 36 wasn't "Tandem Rated" but it seems many are using it and it's holding up.... Fox 40 looks beefy, any issues with geometry or it hitting the frame at sharp angles?

Thanks,
John


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

Rockshox Pike is working well.................not tandem rated either.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

ebnelson said:


> I used the same shock with the 5" rocker. A longer shock eye to eye would jack the stoker BB up even higher when un-sagged. We have an issue with our 5" rockers where the chain rubs the bottom of the front derailleur cage even when sagged if we are more than half way down the cassette when on the smaller 2x chainring. This is a bummer since with our 2x chainring set up we were able to use every gear combo with the 4" rockers. I'm going to play with a XX1 drive train to see if we can live without top end gears.


Turns out we really like the XX1 cassette on the ECDM. Our chainring is a 28T. A slight grade downhill on the road had us coasting instead of spinning but it wasn't nearly as bad as I had imagined before trying the gearing. We only have a sample of one ride. So far so good!


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

ebnelson said:


> Turns out we really like the XX1 cassette on the ECDM. Our chainring is a 28T. A slight grade downhill on the road had us coasting instead of spinning but it wasn't nearly as bad as I had imagined before trying the gearing. We only have a sample of one ride. So far so good!


The biggest question I have is the durability of the XX1 cassette. I guess the freehub body of the XD driver hub too. Interested to hear how this works out.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

Durability is certainly a concern. Sram's new XG-1150 may be more durable. It's certainly more heavy. The XD driver, I don't know. We are using Hope Pro II hubs which have mixed reliability reports. I've never had a problem with them.

For my team, I'm fairly confident things will work as reliably as they do for a stronger single rider. We've been using a PowerTap hub on the road bike for the last month and it seems like our functional threshold power is around 340W, which is pretty low. The peaks aren't really all that either. With my 90lb stoker we aren't going to break much gear. Good thing Traci doesn't read this forum!


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## graciejohn (Jun 6, 2015)

Just wanna run this by you guys to see if I am missing anything...

I'm getting a new ECDM 29er and want to put a 2016 Fox 36 Fork on it. Looking at the Talas option which I see has a 160/130 travel option. So, since Ventana says their frame is good for up to 120mm, then I'll set the Talas to 130 and that should be good without messing up my geometry too much. Right????

Am I missing anything or any better recommendations?

The Wife and I are 280lbs combined.

Thanks in advance! 

John


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

graciejohn said:


> Just wanna run this by you guys to see if I am missing anything...
> 
> I'm getting a new ECDM 29er and want to put a 2016 Fox 36 Fork on it. Looking at the Talas option which I see has a 160/130 travel option. So, since Ventana says their frame is good for up to 120mm, then I'll set the Talas to 130 and that should be good without messing up my geometry too much. Right????
> 
> ...


If you're going to go with the Fox, I would skip the Talas and buy the Float that is set at 140 and rhen reduce it down to 120mm. We are also 285 and have been very pleased with the float set at 120.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

mhopton said:


> If you're going to go with the Fox, I would skip the Talas and buy the Float that is set at 140 and rhen reduce it down to 120mm. We are also 285 and have been very pleased with the float set at 120.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


+ 1 on Skipping the Talas.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

We've done as mhopton suggests and I feel that is the best approach. The latest Talas spring is way better than previous versions but I don't see the need on the ECDM. The Float is easy for a home mechanic to adjust the axle to crown length to match Ventana geometry and the air spring rate to match team preferences.


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## reamer41 (Mar 26, 2007)

mhopton said:


> If you're going to go with the Fox, I would skip the Talas and buy the Float that is set at 140 and rhen reduce it down to 120mm. We are also 285 and have been very pleased with the float set at 120.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


This. 
You can change in 10mm increments.


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## graciejohn (Jun 6, 2015)

Awesome. Thanks for the input guys!


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## freerider1 (May 1, 2006)

I've got the 3/4/5 rocker and have had it set at 5" since i bought it and she rides great. i have an ATC Racing T-5 fork. it's at 6" travel stock.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

freerider1 said:


> I've got the 3/4/5 rocker and have had it set at 5" since i bought it and she rides great. i have an ATC Racing T-5 fork. it's at 6" travel stock.


The ATC can be a great fork. Not quite Fox 40 good but still very good. I have two ATC's sitting in the garage. One is has modified internals, the other is stock.

Without doubt, the ATC is the stiffest fork with the most versatility, fits all the wheels sizes 26",27.5", 29".

PK


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## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

I have the option to buy a used ECdM ('04) w/Marz DJ-1 or a used El Testigo ('02) w/triple crown Stratos. I'm new to tandems and am buying for the purpose of being able to share rides with my kids (10, 8, 18mo, 6mo...) and still get a workout in. Had a blast this past weekend with the 8 yo on a trail-a-bike behind my 6" travel bike, on rough technical terrain and am convinced that one of the above will be even better.

I've talked with a few people and apples to apples, most opinions have me leaning towards the ECdM. However, the part of me that likes "long travel" bikes and technical terrain makes the Testigo sound appealing. It seems that maybe some of the original drawbacks of "wallowy & too much travel" for a tandem could be mitigated with a modern valved rear shock?

Also ebay still has a few 1-1/8 steer tubed RS Lyriks, Totem's, FOX 36's etc. So on either bike I could still upgrade to a 6" travel single crown front fork if I wanted to. Which it seems like some of you have done on your ECdM's. 

Conveniently, my current bike has an older 6" travel Lyrik w/20mm thru-axle so if I got the ECdM and decided I wanted more travel, I could swap it out pretty easily, to see what I think.

Thoughts opinions??
Many thanks.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Are you really going to use 6" of travel with a 10/8 year old on the back? Would a very light stoker even actuate suspension to that level? And if not, would the bike ride very weird with the weight bias versus travel used?


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## Stevoo (Mar 9, 2007)

I would highly suggest test riding the two bikes if possible. While both are fs mtn tandems they ride/handle quite a bit different from one another. My guess is you will be able to select the one that suits you best after a test ride.


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## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

Okayfine, I don't see why not with a properly adjusted spring-rate. Seems that a lot of people are using 6" travel forks up front on ECdM's and there's a lot of talk about these "5-in rockers" for the back to increase travel... So yeah. I'm just looking for thoughts from those who have experience.


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## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

Stevoo, Both options are far, far away.


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## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Another summer coming, another maintenance check in preparation. Chains, cables, shock air sleeve kit - all the usual bits. I still need to service the fork, but the surprising bit was finding that the front BB was nearly seized.

I had noticed it was stiffer to backpedal over the last few rides, but there was time to figure it out or time to ride (but not both) and spinning the rear wheel itself was free and normal. Figuring the stoker BB was toast (a Gigipipe DH, we've been through a couple), I removed the sync chain for cleaning and found that the captain's BB was bad.

This was surprising for two reasons: 1-it's an SKF, and 2-it made no noise while dying. Usually I get audible clues that a BB is going bad.

Pulling the SKF out (had been in for about six years), I could not hold the BB body and turn the axle by hand, I needed the crank arm on for leverage. The bike sees no water or even mud (we live in SoCal, it doesn't rain here anymore) and I don't powerwash the bike clean.

Weird failure, but I had four Gigipipe DH BBs in my parts drawer, ready to go, because BTDT...


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## ALM (Jul 14, 2012)

*New Ventana for us!*

































So we have made the jump from our Cannondale Mt3000 to our Fandango DC-9 to this Ventana FS. It was hard to leave the Fandango behind. Funny how our bikes become like part of the family??

My stoker was in a accident (not her fault) and several lower vertebrae were damaged. She never complained over the past 2 years but I felt it would be best to move up to the FS just to give her more protection and comfort. We test rode while at Mtb Tandems in Woodstock Ga. Alex Nutt is the man when it comes to off road tandems. Not sure if we really needed it, we left it and went on and rode the Fandango in North Carolina. We rode downhill on Beech Mountain, the Virginia Creeper trail, Warrior Creek at Kerr Scott and other trails on the Emerald Outback on top of Beech Mt. 
The Fandango did great on all. Our trails in Texas are overall smooth but can be rooty at times. It just came down to comfort and protection so we pulled the trigger and picked it up on the way back home. So far we love it and looking forward to many happy miles and memories from it.

My stoker appropriately named it the Texas Two-Step! Ready to dance with it for a long time.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

Looks nice! When you two pick a color you really go all in. Matching helmets are as far as we've made it.


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## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

https://nsmb.com/articles/nailing-gaps-tandem/
Can your ECdM do this?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

laksboy said:


> https://nsmb.com/articles/nailing-gaps-tandem/
> Can your ECdM do this?


Actually, yes. But as riders we prefer to not jump gaps.


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## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

I'm planning on a new ecdm which means I'm selling my old one. It just got listed on the classifieds w/o pictures (due to technical issues). Message me with an email and I'll send the pics.


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## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

Nicolai's FS tandem: Finally a review of Guy Kesteven's 3 year old custom rig ridden how we ride our old ECdM. I'll make one last pitch to Sherwood to build me a modern version of the Testigo, but at this point, I'll be breaking ranks and building up a newer custom-er version of the Nicolai.


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## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

I thought Sherwood would do I custom ECDM? What were you quoted for a Nicolai? the Nicolai tandems look bomber for sure.


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## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

I received an email from Teresa, "Sherwood will not do longer rockers on an ecdm.". And I haven't even asked about changing the head angle (amongst other things)... Once I have an budget estimate from Nicolai, I'm going to ask 1 more time... I'd sure like to work with someone who is only a 3 hrs away vs Germany, but if he's not interested, I can't make him build it.


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## laksboy (Sep 4, 2007)

Update:
I got a Testigo. 1st ride it is everything I hoped it would be. Simply phenomenally capable bike. In the process of the build I've learned a few things that I think would be of value to the users of this thread:

1. My testigo came with some shorter rockers that appear to be the longer ecdm rockers. I'm certainly open to selling them.

2. 1x10 wide range gearing with 22t driveside timing is pretty awesome.

3. Fox still makes a 36 with a 1-1/8" steer tube for 26" wheeled bikes. You can shorten the travel to whatever you like or they can custom build it with a TALAS 160/120 adjustable spring. This was news to some people on the MTB tandem facebook page and gives old tandems with obsolete forks a new lease on life.

https://www.thebikedads.com/ventanas-full-suspension-tandem-el-conquistador-de-montanas/


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