# Sudar's First Frame



## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

Just about ready to get started on putting my first frame together, so I thought I'd post up a drawing of what I am going to do. This bike will be fillet brazed mostly because I have a torch in my garage and I like the flowing look of brazed frames. I have access to a TIG welder at work, but it's an hour drive away and I don't want to haul my frame jig all over the world. 

I'm building this on an old (early nineties?) Henry James Universal Jig I picked up a couple years ago. I had never done any machining before, but it was pretty clear I was going to have to learn how in order to build modern frames on the old jig. I had to make a new fixture to hold tapered head tubes, a couple new tube saddle blocks to hold 35mm seat tubes, and machine an adapter to allow me to use Anvil dummy axles on the Henry James jig. Should be pretty cool.

The frame is a 27.5 hardtail with a custom Paragon 44/49 headtube so I can use an Angleset and do a little experimenting. The other bits (dropouts, BB, brake mount) are all Paragon as well. The tubes are all Dedacciai Zero Uno from BikeFabSupply.com with the exception of the ST which came from Vari-Wall. I'm about 220 lbs geared up. I hope I chose wisely. Here are the specs:
TT 35mm .8/.6.8
DT 38mm .9/.5/.8
ST 35mm 1.6/.85 - no seatpost insert required
SS 19mm .7
CS 15x30mm 1.0/.7

I'm currently riding a V2 Evil Sovereign with a 150 fork and a Knolly Chilcotin 170F/160R. Both are 26ers and getting a little dated. I went back and forth between 27.5 and 29 for a long time, but 27.5 won because I didn't feel like the 29ers I had ridden were as flickable when things got rough and techy.  One of the primary goals for this build was to fit a 200mm dropper. The Fall Line 200mm will fit, but I ended up with a Bike Yoke 185mm. Either way, it should still be able to be dirt jumped if the need arises. Which it will. 

The thinking behind the cut and welded seat tube are: I don't currently have proper bending dies for that size/wall thickness of tube, easy dropper cable routing and aesthetics. I have always been a fan of 2Souls Cycles.

All the components for the bike build and all tubes are sitting in the garage ready to go. I haven't cut tube yet, so I can still make some minor tweaks to the geo. Let me know what you think. Never done this before, so I'd like some feedback. Not sure why the thumbnail is all black, but there is a pdf of a frame there if you click.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Looks good to me. You're like 5'9 or so? That is going to make a very stiff frame. I'd use a smaller diameter TT in 9/6/9 for a little more flex and dent resistance. 

I'd also consider using paragon sliders (if you're comfortable with silver), nova mild steel sliders (if you would rather just TIG them in), or horizontal dropouts and a disk tab. On your first frame it can be super valuable to be able to shorten/lengthen the chainstays independently of other fit/handling variables. See how chainstay length can affect handling on it's own, dial in the handling, compensate for build mistakes, get your wheel as forward as possible... and i think those chainstays are too dang short. Especially combined with that STA, but i would struggle even in the attack position. The chainstay miters always seem to be the trickiest and i end up shaving a bit more stay off than i intended to get them perfect.

Walt and PVD are/were selling curved seat tubes. I'd prefer them on a 1st build because i'd worry about cooking the DT/ST joint, or landing it on the butt, or something. Cutting and welding the thin wall section of the seat tube will fail eventually. I made mistakes on my first frames despite sweating the details, and a curved ST eliminates a spot to screw up. Steepening the STA a couple degrees would do the trick too, and would probably gel with the rest of the frame/build kit better.

I'd drop the BB at least 10mm, possibly more.

I won't be running another pike. They suck to service and i don't like the damping behavior.


I'm not the final word of frame design by any stretch of the imagination, but i'm an expert at spouting opinions. Good luck with your first frame!


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## Erichimedes (Jul 30, 2010)

Couple thoughts:
You may have a challenging time fitting the chainstay between the chainring and tire. Napkin math tells me you have roughly 19mm between them (if you're running a boost chainline and 2.4 tire), so try to have a plan for threading through that gap.

I would also recommend a bent ST. With your dropper requirements, Walt's bent ST plus a collar welded to the top is probably your best option, I would think.

I agree with scottzg, your TT is kinda huge. A 31.8 in 9/6/9 would probably be just right. I feel like your seatstays are kind of on the thin side, I might go with .8 wall.

I think the geo looks great. Should be a killer trail bike.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

The 643mm dimention should be removed from the print.

The bb is a bit high, the seat tube is too slack, the head tube isn't slack enough.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Also, go with a 46mm offset fork.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

I will get a smaller TT ordered. That decision was based on the TT of my Evil Sovereign. 
That will give me more room to build a fillet on the sides of the TT to ST joint. I was a little concerned about not having much of a fillet without an unsightly bulge when joining two tubes of the same diameter. I've been practicing my brazing on scrap tubing and that was one of the things I was worried about-- there wasn't much brass left where the sides of the fish mouth interesected tangent to the other tube.

I'm having trouble finding S bend seat stays that are thicker than .7 mm. All the True Temper stuff is sold out and Columbus, Vari Wall and Dedacciai don't make anything thicker in an S bend. I need the S bend for heel clearance. Are the .7 mm walls really too thin?

I'm pretty sure I can run a staight ST and forget the cut/weld if I steepen the ST angle as PVD suggested and move the rear wheel back 5 mm. This will also help with tire/chainring/CS clearance. I have other drawings I did not post where I did check those clearances. According to CAD I have 7 mm tire clearance and 4 mm chainring clearance and that's before any dimpling. More clearance is always welcome though.

How low can I go on the BB? 300mm? I'm running 170mm cranks. 

PVD-- I'm curious about running a fork with more offset? Are you suggesting I shorten the trail with more offset and then slacken the HA to lengthen it out again? Not that I care to follow trends, but it seems like Transition and Whyte were going with less offset on their forks and then moving the riding position foward?

Thank you for the suggestions. I will get a revised drawing posted up in a bit and some pics of my jig.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

jsudar said:


> I will get a smaller TT ordered. That decision was based on the TT of my Evil Sovereign.
> That will give me more room to build a fillet on the sides of the TT to ST joint. I was a little concerned about not having much of a fillet without an unsightly bulge when joining two tubes of the same diameter. I've been practicing my brazing on scrap tubing and that was one of the things I was worried about-- there wasn't much brass left where the sides of the fish mouth interesected tangent to the other tube.


Do your miter, then ovalize the tube by using a vice and some wood blocks, then adjust the miter so it sits flush again. I finish it up by wrapping the other tube in sand paper and running it through the miter. Pretty easy; an extra 10 minutes once you've done a few. My current mtb frame has a 35mm 9/6/9 TT, and although i don't see it as a hindrance it's not really beneficial for me either. It's a girder and i'm glad i've unloaded the pike- the frame felt excessively stiff until i mounted up a more rigid, better damped fork. I'm somewhat heavier and significantly taller than you.



jsudar said:


> I'm having trouble finding S bend seat stays that are thicker than .7 mm. All the True Temper stuff is sold out and Columbus, Vari Wall and Dedacciai don't make anything thicker in an S bend. I need the S bend for heel clearance. Are the .7 mm walls really too thin?


Here. I don't understand the need for S bend SSs for heel clearance, with 415mm stays you'd have to have hooves to not hit the dropouts. I might use .7mm stays, but erichimedes' input is more valuable than mine. A slightly thicker tube can be a godsend if your temp control sucks. Ask me how i know.



jsudar said:


> I'm pretty sure I can run a straight ST and forget the cut/weld if I steepen the ST angle as PVD suggested and move the rear wheel back 5 mm. This will also help with tire/chainring/CS clearance.


Personally i would do this without hesitation. Seated steep climbing can only improve and i'd expect improved descending too unless you're quite short.



jsudar said:


> How low can I go on the BB? 300mm? I'm running 170mm cranks.


For me and 175 cranks- 295 clipless, 305 flat pedals. No sag. Raise 10mm if riding in a rocky/desert environment, or somewhere where you're constantly pedaling to keep momentum. That's based on experimentation and might be totally off base for what most people want. No idea.



jsudar said:


> PVD-- I'm curious about running a fork with more offset? Are you suggesting I shorten the trail with more offset and then slacken the HA to lengthen it out again? Not that I care to follow trends, but it seems like Transition and Whyte were going with less offset on their forks and then moving the riding position forward?


If you live somewhere with non-chop, high speed descents------- the only thing that matters is getting the longest front-center possible, then adjusting the rest of the bike so it climbs and handles right. Once you're fastest on a bike with the longest FC it takes a pretty tight/narrow/flat trail for that design to be a definite handicap. This is a place where terrain, fitness, rider skill/experience, etc make for a murky crystal ball and there's no simple answer and it can change as you do.

Transition and Whyte are going after a bike with a somewhat more moderate FC that's very stable. Different goals. Maybe i've interpreted it all wrong.



jsudar said:


> Thank you for the suggestions. I will get a revised drawing posted up in a bit and some pics of my jig.


Sweet!

Maybe you're more talented than i am, but every ride i'm grateful that i used my first couple frames as geometry and tube set experiments. You can go buy a good frame from a hundred different manufacturers, but you have to go alone if you want to make fundamental compromises and amazing gains. So to a certain extent it's wise to build what you want, ride the result, and be candid. Go heavy on tube wall thickness and do what you want with tube diameter. Take framebuilder advice in aggregate and you'll get another 'safe' design that works well (hopefully) and you don't know the compromises that were made.

With framebuilding... 'craft' advice is invaluable, 'art' advice is interesting.

Don't take my advice. I'm a newbie and an idiot.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

The whole "high trail" trend is completely marketing hype.

High Trail MTB | Peter Verdone Designs


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

You keep referencing the Evil and Knolly bikes. Those are total **** bikes and really not anything you'd want to base your own build on.

Here's my last mtb. I'm 5'10" and ride aggressive trail and pedal a lot. It currently has the fork set at 180mm. It's pretty dialed. Note the tube sizes.

SR-71 Blackbird | Peter Verdone Designs


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## givemefive (May 26, 2007)

pvd said:


> The whole "high trail" trend is completely marketing hype.
> 
> High Trail MTB | Peter Verdone Designs


I did find the 51mm offset 29er fork to be inferior to 44mm from a handling perspective.

The 51mm fork tends to tuck under once the front wheel loses traction leading to a crash where the 44mm is save-able because it's easier to pull back. Perhaps a better athlete than I wouldn't notice this so much but for me it was a significant difference.

I don't have a perfect explanation but it's a combination of the movement the wheel takes when it washes out and the quickness one can straighten the wheel and ride out the slide.

I discovered this feeling on my own but went back and read some opinions of others and found they had the same thoughts.

So there' more to it than just optimizing for front center unfortunately. I bought a whole new kashima upper for $250 to get the feeling right :/


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

I agree with you on the save-able perspective.
Along with chainstay lengths, seat tube angles, headtube angles, front centres, fork offsets, they are variables and you know what you are comfortable with in your riding environment. So select what works for you.
Generally, regardless of HT angle, a shorter offset will always produce a bike that requires more lean to steer rather than turning of the bars like its a steering wheel. The high trail figures produce bikes that tend to 'self steer' and track solidly in the straight ahead.
With the wide bars now being used, leverage is available to overcome turning reluctance.
It all depends on what you prefer in your bike.

Your Build, You Choose.

Good Luck

Eric


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

*Revisions*

Sorry for the long delay, but I was helping coach a junior development team with the NICA League. Got busy with all the end of season racing and other stuff.

Here is an updated drawing. The changes are as follows: smaller diameter top tube (31.8, 9/6/9), thicker seat stays and and a straight seat tube. I decided I wanted more standover, so I reworked the top tube. The different butt profile of the new TT allowed for the brace and I'm really liking how the TT flows into the seat stays.

As far as the geometry goes, I lengthened the chainstays a little bit (to 423mm) for better tire clearance and lowered the BB (302mm). The ST is now steeper (75°) and the head angle is slackened to 65.5°. I also stretched the front end out to make up for the steeper seat angle. I decided to go to a 150mm fork too.

I'm feeling good about it. Hopefully I can start putting it together this weekend.


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Attached Thumbnail is too dark for me to read, but from your writtings to date, you appear to be goiing in the right design direction to have a rewarding ride.

Eric


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

I don't know why the thumbnail shows up black. If you click it, it's a .pdf of an AutoCAD drawing with a white background. Don't judge a pic by its thumbnail? IDK.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Looks awesome.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Looks like a pretty normal long/low/slack kinda bike. Not my personal cup of tea but most people love 'em. Build it and enjoy!

-Walt


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

Here are a couple pics of the progress. Lots of other stuff going on, so it is slow going, but I'm getting there.














I have a little time off work with the holiday and I'm hoping to finish the last few miters. Then I will do a bunch more practice joints with the torch and start putting the bike together.

I need to give a shout out to Jon of Sabrosa Cycles for answering tons of questions for me. You're a true craftsman.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

*Got a joint question*

I got a couple things accomplished over the long weekend, including learning all sorts of stuff about Reverb droppers when my son's quit dropping, but hey, it works now. I also finished all the miters and got the ST/BB joint done.

I have a question about the DT to ST/BB joint. When making this joint, do you file the corners off the DT where the fillet from the ST/BB joint is or do you grind out the fillet to make room for the DT? See pic.

I have heard of people doing both it both ways. Does it matter? Am I over complicating? It would certainly take less time to fit the DT to the fillet rather than dremeling out the brass and risking undercutting the tubing. Let me know what you think.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

File the points off.

-Walt


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

*Progress pix*

Got the front triangle finished up. I've been using an old water bath coliform bacteria incubator as a defluxing tank. It actually has a heater in it but it's set to regulate the temperature to precisely 45.5°C which is not nearly hot enough to remove flux, but it is good for growing bacteria in the laboratory. One of these days I will rewire the heater and see if I can get it to 80 or 90°C. Until then I will continue to dump boiling water in it. I can't complain-- it was free and it's a nice stainless tank-- and a circulation pump too 

There are a couple shots of the adapter I made to use Anvil dummy axles in the Henry James jig. It's a nice tight fit. It's a pretty simple piece, but I can post the CAD drawing I made if anyone is interested in the dimensions. I don't have access to a lathe, only a mill, so I had a friend machine it for me. He will do small projects in exchange for diet Dr. Pepper.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

*Drop out clocking question*

I have another question. How should I clock the derailleur hanger? It's a Syntace hanger. Should the flat surface on the bottom of the dropout be horizontal? (see pic)

I heard somewhere that it should be between horizontal and tilted toward the rear of the bike up to 15°. I thought I read this on Paragon's site but I can't find it again. Googling hasn't helped much either. Does it matter that much since the hanger is rotating around the same center as the cassette? Let me know what your experience has been.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

The hanger should be clocked to the Shimano spec if you're using a front derailleur. Use the SRAM spec for everything else.

I use Paragon TA dropouts and they get an additional 2.75 degrees from "as drawn" for correct placement for SRAM 1X.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Here you go.

Little details of the week. - Peter Verdone Designs


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

That is a nice gesture^^^^

Eric


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks PVD.

That jogged my memory a bit. I'm pretty sure I saw that post on your site, because that was the diagram I was thinking of. For the life of me, I could not remember where I saw it.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

Finished the frame this morning and started assembling the bike this afternoon. Realized I forgot to order post mount adapters so off to the LBS I went. They didn’t have what I needed. Second shop had the front adapter but the only rear adapter that would work was a SRAM job with titanium bolts — fifty-six freaking dollars. They gave me 10% off. So $66 later I had caliper adapters. 
I’ve also been riding seatless because I somehow misplaced the cable clamp bolt thingy for my Bike Yoke dropper. Kinda mad about that... but at least I got to ride it around the cul de sac in the snow. I probably have a rigid post in the parts bin I can use for now. 
Bike feels good and didn’t break, so that’s good... I’ll get som pics up in the next day or so. 
Many thanks to Walt for his help with facing and reaming. It was much appreciated.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)




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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Really nice man, can't imagine how super good it must feel to be able to ride something you yourself built by hand. One day maybe I'll get up the nerve to give it a go, definitely give props to all those who do give it a go, whether it's a success first time or there are some issues, you are trying and learning.

Are you going to paint it? Me personally, I'd just clean it up good and spray some clear on it or just polish it up real good. Don't forget to coat the inside of the tubes with some frame saver


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

Yes I’m going to have it powder coated. I was a little nervous about everything fitting together properly and tire/chainring clearance but it turned out beautifully in that regard. 
I’ll get all the cable routing sorted and tear it down in a week or so for some color. 
It’s pretty snowy here, so no real riding but it’s held up to several hours of aggressive cul de sac circling.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

*All painted up*

So the bike is all done and has been properly test ridden. Got it back from the powder coater Thursday afternoon, spent all of Thursday evening putting it back together so we could leave for St. George in southern Utah at 7:00 the next morning. 
The colors are from Prismatic Powder. Glowing Yellow over Super Chrome is what I ended up going with. Although I didn't tell the powder coater I really wanted the bike to match the anodizing on the handlebars, he somehow managed to match them perfectly.
I was really happy with how the bike rode. We hit a wide variety of terrain-- from slickrock to smooth hardpack clay to super techy boulder filled climbs to the new Snake Hollow bike park. Even though the front end of the bike is significantly longer than any other I have ridden for an extended time period, it was still plenty "poppy" going off ledges and jumps but left me with enough room to move around. It took a little getting used to in the corners because I had to lean forward to weight the front tire, but it was a minor adjustment. 
Head angle was set to 66° with the Angleset, but my Ebay Yari was a 160mm and I had designed around a 150mm fork. I didn't make time to change the air shaft, so it was riding a little higher than planned. BB height felt good. The bike felt stable on the trail and I could trackstand for days on end. I didn't feel like I had excessive pedal strikes, other than in spots where everyone else was pedal striking as well. I could probably go lower on the BB height for the next frame, but I want to get the fork dropped down before I make that call for sure. 
I did some unintentional "destructive testing" at the bike park when I greatly misjudged the speed required to clear a drop and cased it super hard. We carefully inspected the frame after that one, but everything seemed all right.
Over all, I'm very pleased with my first effort and I'm excited to play around with the Angleset. I'm in a position now where bike commuting is feasible, so my next project will probably be a 700c something with fenders. 
Thanks to everyone on the forum for suggestions, feedback and sharing your experience.


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

Love the color!


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## hardtail party (Oct 12, 2012)

Congrats on a successful first frame build. That's gotta be the best feeling of accomplishment. I'm scared to learn to do this, and it would inevitably become a HUGE money pit for me. Kudos to you.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Man, really digging that colour, turned out really sweet, plus that it looks to almost exactly match the bar :thumbsup: Don't forget to come back from time to time and update the thread.


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## kyle_vk (Jul 25, 2011)

Well done, looks great!


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## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

Love it - nice job!


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Nice work.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

*Post Paint Chainstay Dimpling*

I must have bumped my driveside chainstay when I fluxed it (and couldn't see the scribe marks anymore) but it moved outboard and I ended up with very little chainring clearance. It was fine with the 30t chainring which I had planned to run, but with the chainstay movement I didn't have room for a 32t. I had designed it to have space for a 32t, however, now it was just too tight. Not a big deal since the 30t was working fine for me.

Problem was I've really been wanting to try an oval chainring, so I went ahead and ordered an Absolute Black 30t Oval. Oval chainrings are just about two teeth bigger on the tall side and then the Absolute Black ring was thicker than the Shimano ring it was replacing. It actually had clearance, but only about 1mm. This brought me to post paint chainstay dimpling.

I stole an oak block from my kids building block set and hit it with a rasp to make a chainstay shaped support block. Then I got a small piece of very heavy leather and some vice grips and went to town. I squished it just over 2mm. It was a lot harder to smash than I thought it would be, but I got it done and didn't screw up the powder coat. The marks you can see are Sharpie so I knew where to squish. The dimple is barely visible.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

Just got back from a weekend in Moab and the frame is still holding together. We rode five trails of the Mag 7 plus Hymasa and Ahab. I love this bike. I climbed ledges I have never climbed before and made it up all sorts of obstacles I never thought I could. The oval chainring with the Onyx rear hub was amazing. I felt like I had seamless power just when I needed it. I have a bit of a trials background (I watched too much Hans Rey on VHS when I was younger) and the oval/Onyx combo would let me have the speed I needed coming into ledges for the pedal up, but I could still have the gearing to stop/start on steep stuff if I need to hop and readjust. 
I've been riding Moab since the mid 90's and this was one of my best trips ever. I seriously felt like I was 17 again. Maybe even a little like Chris Akrigg. At least until I started to bonk. Ha ha. 
I rode Slickrock for the first time in 1994 when I was thirteen. Now I just spent the weekend riding Moab with my own thirteen year old. I was so stoked to see him rocking his 100mm travel 29er hardtail (his weapon of choice) down Ahab. My buddy's 9 year old was seriously tearing things up on his 24" wheeled Scott F/S. That kid is an animal on the downhill. Kids are so amazing. 
It was a great trip. I was so happy to be cruising a bike I built myself and have it work so well for me. It was even more fun to be doing it with my kid.


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## Eric Malcolm (Dec 18, 2011)

Neat trick with the dimpling.
We used cover the chainstay with leather and hit it with the ball side of an engineers hammer! Also effective, the steel was surprisingly resistant but your way seems much more civilised....

Eric


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