# Broken chromoly frame; how to find a welder to repair?



## veryavgwhtguy (Jul 31, 2008)

I broke my chromoly steel frame yesterday, and am not optimistic about a warranty replacement due to the manufacturer's customer service reputation. Would a welder need any special qualifications, equipment, or techniques to fix this? Or is it even fixable?


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

Why don't you first contact Ragley to see if they'll warranty it for you? That would be a lot less expensive than a repair.


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## veryavgwhtguy (Jul 31, 2008)

Not necessarily if this certain manufacturer (who had remained nameless prior to your post) makes me ship the frame back, which is what their warranty page says needs to happen. I've already contacted them via email and am waiting for a response. I'm doubtful, so I want to get my ducks in a row to have it repaired now.


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## CBookman (Sep 9, 2008)

Repairing it will require the paint/powder to be removed in order to replace the dropout or weld it back together. No idea what the charge would be to weld it, and replacing the dropout someone else here could help with cost of that. It appears to have failed at the weld. 

Repainting with a color match is probably going to be a bit more than shipping it one way in most cases.

I'm with Blaster on this one.


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## veryavgwhtguy (Jul 31, 2008)

Thanks to the two respondents for thinking up their own questions to answer for themselves. Is there anyone who can answer: _Would a welder need any special qualifications, equipment, or techniques to fix this?_


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Best to take it to a welding shop. Its not so much the equipment but the experience of the welder. If your used to thick structural steel and then try a thin tube you can blow a hole in the frame. Or find a local frame builder or maybe send it to some one on here.

Tim


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## qbert2000 (Jul 30, 2008)

Let me google that for you


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## skogan (Jan 12, 2004)

It's not a rocket ship, all you need to do is find someone comfortable TIG welding thin gauge steel. Call around to your local welding shops. E70s rod is all they need to use. Clean the area to bare metal, have them repair as they see fit and then hit it with some touch up paint. 
Ride it and see if you can break it again. 

Looks like the drop out failed, not the weld. Poor casting perhaps?


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## veryavgwhtguy (Jul 31, 2008)

Thanks! Exactly what I was looking for.


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## Pimpride (Nov 14, 2005)

I had a EL / OS bianchi denali that broke at the BB / Chainstay and had someone weld it (rather quickly) and it's held for years.... Good luck!


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## shellshocked (Jul 9, 2011)

Just going through this with an aluminum frame - but not that bad or a break. I have a welder lined up for this week. I just Googled frame welding, TIG welding, MIG welding and my city. The estimates are ranging from a low of $50 to around $100 and the time is in the prep work - the actual welding takes 2-3 minutes. You might look for someone who build bike or motorcycle frames in your area as well.


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## veryavgwhtguy (Jul 31, 2008)

I had it welded up by a guy for $26.50. Not the stack-o-dimes weld I hoped for, but not a total bird poop weld either. Just finished spray painting it. There could be stress risers created at the corners of the gusset that cause the tube to crack in those locations. We shall see.


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## qbert2000 (Jul 30, 2008)

veryavgwhtguy said:


> I had it welded up by a guy for $26.50. Not the stack-o-dimes weld I hoped for, but not a total bird poop weld either. Just finished spray painting it. There could be stress risers created at the corners of the gusset that cause the tube to crack in those locations. We shall see.


that's pretty close to total bird poop.


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little. That's awful.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Sweet! Two new points to fail and no more chance at warranty from the manufacture.
Patience is a virtue.


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## veryavgwhtguy (Jul 31, 2008)

Prima donnas, the lot of you. It has a 90% chance of working just fine, and will be covered with mud after the first ride. As for the warranty, I don't have proof of purchase any longer, which is required for a warranty claim. Nothing to lose with the hack repair except 27 dollars and a public flogging on MTBR.


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## creyc (May 24, 2005)

as far as welds go...wow. that's terrible, i guess you get what you pay for though :/

hopefully it stays together for you though!


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Whoa*

IMO it's usually a good idea to fuse the broken joint/part back together before adding more material (I could be wrong, it doesn't look like they did that).

Hideous, but yeah, it'll probably stay together. I've done similar repairs for folks who didn't want to pay for a full dropout replacement on their old townies many times, the triangle brace works great.

-Walt


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I could have ignored the bird poop weld, but I hope that tubing is thicker than I think it is. Trying to figure out why you would maul the tubing that badly. This sort of thing is why it's almost always better to go to someone that works on frames.

On edit, I see that it was to clean off the paint. That's what they invented oxy/acetylene and sandpaper for.


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## WadePatton (May 10, 1999)

is the dropout face still parallel to the other one?

please find a machinist/TIG fab guy and pay more for the next one, thanks. 

but that will probably do you just fine. if it doesn't you're not out much and you've contributed to the education of our gentle readers.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

veryavgwhtguy said:


> Prima donnas, the lot of you. It has a 90% chance of working just fine, and will be covered with mud after the first ride.


No, not prima donnas, that weld just looks like hammered puppy s-h-i-t. Was the guy blind or using MIG instead of TIG or both? I'd never give it 90% chance of working just fine for more than a few rides. Maybe it will.... But don't put that kind of crap on this forum and call us prima donnas.... There are guys whose first welds look better than that.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

sheesh...if the $27 saved him from scrapping the frame and he's happy with it, why should we care what it looks like? I love a pretty weld as much as anyone but we all know that there aren't many (or possibly any) builders who'd touch that for $27.


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## thwang-01 (Jul 5, 2008)

should have got in touch with brant aka ragley he would of sorted something
thwang


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## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

jay_ntwr said:


> ...Was the guy blind...?


:lol: That's exactly what I was going to say!



jay_ntwr said:


> ... don't put that kind of crap on this forum and call us prima donnas.... There are guys whose first welds look better than that.


+1


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

jay_ntwr said:


> Was the guy blind or using MIG instead of TIG or both?


He was indeed blind in at least one eye, and he welded it with a battery charger and a pair of quarters, just like in that one episode of MacGuyver.


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## cman8 (Jul 27, 2011)

Did you take that to the local High school metal shop to get welded? That weld does not look stable at all, You might as well have used some Duct tape. It worked on mythbusters to build a bridge probably would have worked on your ride. hahahaha


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

edoz said:


> He was indeed blind in at least one eye, and he welded it with a battery charger and a pair of quarters, just like in that one episode of MacGuyver.


Ah, makes more sense now. In that case, it looks pretty good I suppose.


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

my 4.5 year old son can weld about that 'good'


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## Eville140 (Nov 26, 2010)

Agree on that looks pretty bad, hope it holds well. 
If for some reason you need a frame welded again, don't go to a "welding shop". Find a chassis shop or ask around your area for somebody that does roll cages, moly cages are required to be tig welded and they will be good at it. And I bet it would of been the same or less money.


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

Just take one of these to it










smooth it, then no one will ever be the wiser. Just don't have the same guy who welded it smooth it.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Actually leave it as is.

When metal cools the outer skin is the first part to cool and develops a tension. If you grind the weld it becomes weaker and will be more likely to crack later.


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## jgerhardt (Aug 31, 2009)

febikes said:


> Actually leave it as is.
> 
> When metal cools the outer skin is the first part to cool and develops a tension. If you grind the weld it becomes weaker and will be more likely to crack later.


Is this true? Not that I doubt you, it makes a kind of sense, I just have never heard that before.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

It's something Steve Garin spoke about in the BREW frame building course. I have seen some research to support the theory. For example, on aircraft they generally do not allow welders to grind welds. I have no direct experience because life is too short to learn from trial and error.

The topic is covered in the following material. See topic "(7)".
http://www2.tech.purdue.edu/at/courses/at308/Technical_Links/Ac43-13-1B/CH4_5.pdf


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## CBookman (Sep 9, 2008)

veryavgwhtguy said:


> Thanks to the two respondents for thinking up their own questions to answer for themselves. Is there anyone who can answer: _Would a welder need any special qualifications, equipment, or techniques to fix this?_


You did ask if it was reparable in your first post, no? Nice to see you took the cheapest way out and it looks like a 5th grader did it. Enjoy the ride Mr. Condescension!


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

febikes said:


> Actually leave it as is.
> 
> When metal cools the outer skin is the first part to cool and develops a tension. If you grind the weld it becomes weaker and will be more likely to crack later.


I think that falls under the generalized welding guidelines. It's not wrong but it doesn't apply to everything either. The correct way to fix that weld is to grind it out and lay another bead down. There isn't enough good metal to clean it up with a grinder. Hot washing it might be a decent effort as well. Any way you slice it it still isn't going to be as good as if it was repaired in a professional manor the first time.


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## WadePatton (May 10, 1999)

get TF outta here. 

there is no structural function of THAT "welding" job going to be affected by a bit of grinding. But also there is no level of grinding that will make that look better. GRINDING a weld assumes proper penetration of the weld with some overfill by the filler material. 

AND Steve's name is "Garn".

Yes, it "saved" a frame, but would _you_ ride such a repair on a rigid fork or headtube assembly? stem?

the structural integrity of ground welds eh? i just don't get that LEAP.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Ya goofed the spelling and I agree, GRIND the entire weld out and replace the dropouts plus a good bit of the stays is the way to go in this particular case. This weld looks much worse then the very first weld I ever did.

My point was more the general case of grinding welds. My understanding is that cosmetic grinding for welds is a big no-no and should never be done on something structural.


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## WadePatton (May 10, 1999)

okay, now. ever heard of cannondale? i don't know what they do now, but they used to grind a weld. and that's never where their frames cracked (none that i saw).


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## kampgnar (Apr 13, 2007)

WadePatton said:


> okay, now. ever heard of cannondale? i don't know what they do now, but they used to grind a weld. and that's never where their frames cracked (none that i saw).


Pretty sure C'dale did a second "wash" pass to smooth and flatten the bead.


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## Eville140 (Nov 26, 2010)

WadePatton said:


> okay, now. ever heard of cannondale? i don't know what they do now, but they used to grind a weld. and that's never where their frames cracked (none that i saw).


Good penetration, purged welded, tons of extra filler, aluminum. Even after grinding those frames look almost like they are brazed the joint is so large. 
For a car roll cage if any welds have grind marks it won't get a certification sticker, and that stuff is .083" thick.

If the weld itself holds up, the tube around it might crack. Should of chemical stripped it or used a much less aggressive grit to remove the paint, those tubes are thin starting out, grinding with something heavy enough to leave marks is probably a bad idea. Looks like he used a solid 20ish grit aluminum oxide grind wheel eekk. 
But if it holds, rock on. Just keep an eye on it. If it breaks again, have a better repair done. If seen uglier stuff on more stressed stuff last for ever. (I've seen some dump truck repairs that would make you not want to drive on the street with them)


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

My understanding is that Cannondale did not grind their welds.

Please follow this link for a discussion of Cannondale's approach.
http://forums.mtbr.com/frame-building/grinding-welds-frame-323593.html


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Wow...

I've seen this thread sitting here for a few days. Almost sorry I got this bored. I'm pretty certain I could get a better weld with the paint still on. If all that ever mattered throughout time was "if it worked", think of all the beauty the world would have missed out on.

As for the Prima Donna's; If you go to a place where people care, and ask them not to, what do you expect?


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