# Jumping VP-Free / Uzzi VPX? (Owners Input Wanted)



## B.U.I. (Apr 19, 2004)

Hey I'm thinking about switching over to a VP-Free or an Uzzi VPX from a Demo 8 Pro. I do a lot of jumping and I was wondering how the VP suspension handles jumping. I really thought that my demo jumped well. So if anyone can give me some input on how they jump I'd appreciate it. And by jumping I'm talking about like A-Line style jumps.


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## Red Bull (Aug 27, 2004)

It really wont be a big step up from the Demo. I had a Nine and it jumped great. I have heard from a few people, that DHX's "pop" off lips alot better than swingers. That might be a better investment.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

You could ride a shopping cart down a-line and have fun. If that's your priority save some money.

Simply put, vpx is progressive and jumps as such, vp free is linear to falling so can suck if you don't have your shock setup correctly.

I don't know why you'd want to get rid of a demo 8 though.


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

seems that you should just mess with the rebound on your rear shock and on the fork.


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## BJ- (Jan 28, 2004)

so in other words, if you must replace the frame get an Uzzi with a DHX. otherwise save yourself some cash and get a DHX for your DEMO8. 

personally id just keep the DEMO8.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> I don't know why you'd want to get rid of a demo 8 though.


my thoughts....just as good a bike maybe even better and you are dumping it.....set your shock up better


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

Hmmm, check with aappling72. He just replaced a VPX with a Demo 8, I think to have a little more capable bike. If I remember correctly, he has also had a VPFree and who knows how many other bikes ;-) From those threads I remember he mentioned having had a VPFree, Demo 9, 6-Pack, VPX, and now an Intense 6.6 and Demo 8.

He's posted a lot recently on the Cane Creek Double Barrel (CCDB) rear shock, which sounds really nice, but big $$$.


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## mr.scrapgap (Apr 14, 2005)

*Vp-free!!!!!!!*



B.U.I. said:


> Hey I'm thinking about switching over to a VP-Free or an Uzzi VPX from a Demo 8 Pro. I do a lot of jumping and I was wondering how the VP suspension handles jumping. I really thought that my demo jumped well. So if anyone can give me some input on how they jump I'd appreciate it. And by jumping I'm talking about like A-Line style jumps.


I recently putchased a VP-Free and it rides and jumps like a dream this bike feels as if it was made for jumping and downhill. It will be especialy amazing coming from from a demo.


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## someguy (Jun 27, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> vp free is linear to falling so can suck if you don't have your shock setup correctly.


I think you're confused Kidwoo. Do a search on RM and you'll find suspension charts that show what the free's travel is doing. It is initially progresive(stiff) to a linear middle and then becomes very progressive at the end. Fallig rate=progresive. Rising = less progrssive. Think about it. 1:3 going to a 1:6 =rising rate. Your travel will be moving with less comprsession which means a harsh botom. 1:3 going to 1:1 = falling rate. This gives you a nice ramped up bottom out.

Most people love the free for jumping and attribute it's initial travel (being progressive) with giving it a nice pop off jumps. Something to do with an increased rebound "pop." I'm not sure that I buy that explaination, but my free jumps as weel as any other bike.

The VPX is a great bike from what I've heard and seen (linkage bolts can be a problem), but I'd go with a free because SC quality and cs is top notch.


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

someguy said:


> I think you're confused Kidwoo. Do a search on RM and you'll find suspension charts that show what the free's travel is doing. It is initially progresive(stiff) to a linear middle and then becomes very progressive at the end. Fallig rate=progresive. Rising = less progrssive. Think about it. 1:3 going to a 1:6 =rising rate. Your travel will be moving with less comprsession which means a harsh botom. 1:3 going to 1:1 = falling rate. This gives you a nice ramped up bottom out.
> 
> Most people love the free for jumping and attribute it's initial travel (being progressive) with giving it a nice pop off jumps. Something to do with an increased rebound "pop." I'm not sure that I buy that explaination, but my free jumps as weel as any other bike.
> 
> The VPX is a great bike from what I've heard and seen (linkage bolts can be a problem), but I'd go with a free because SC quality and cs is top notch.


Here's the chart for the VPFree. I saved it from some earlier thread so I could compare it with a VPX version - if one showed up. No luck on that so far. Kidwoo ? ;~)

VPFree looks to be falling, flat, and rising at bottom out. Maybe you'd lose some "pop" because the rebound damping would have more effect at the lower leverage ratio as the suspension tops out? The spring sees this same effect though, so I not quite sure what the net result is!?


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

someguy said:


> I think you're confused Kidwoo.


Nope. See Danno.

Should've said falling to linear though. I wasn't trying to indicate order though.

If you don't believe me ride yours with an old fox vanilla rc or a romic. It's pretty obvious when you take off a progressively valved shock. That's one of the reasons I didn't buy one. For almost identical linkages, the two shock mounts between an vpf and vpx are in different places. This gives very different progression rates in the frame.

Think of it this way. You know how you can move the shock position on a big hit to make it more or less progressive? Look at the way that swing link is oriented. Turn it upside down and that's what you get on the vpp frames. The intense location makes it more progressive because the link is swinging INTO the the shock vs. swinging in a way that kind of "opens up" the the angle between the shock and the swing link.



danno said:


> Here's the chart for the VPFree. I saved it from some earlier thread so I could compare it with a VPX version - if one showed up. No luck on that so far. Kidwoo ? ;~)


Was I supposed to find one? I don't remember.

That chart you found is a nice diagram. I'd never seen it mapped out but that pretty much jives with the vpfrees I've ridden with linear shocks. A buddy of mine sold his vpfree after a trip to whistler last year because he was so sick of the way it shot through the travel in wierd places if his shock wasn't set up right. This was before I met him too. 

Almost all sc bikes are built with falling rates though. It's a way to stiffen up the pedaling while still feeling active in the middle part of the travel. The only bikes I haven't noticed it on are the v10s. Danno, you got a curve for one of those? I have ridden a newer one with a fox rc and it felt fine.


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## WheelieMan (Jan 19, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> Think of it this way. You know how you can move the shock position on a big hit to make it more or less progressive? Look at the way that swing link is oriented. Turn it upside down and that's what you get on the vpp frames. The intense location makes it more progressive because the link is swinging INTO the the shock vs. swinging in a way that kind of "opens up" the the angle between the shock and the swing link.


While that is often true, it will not be the case with every design. The angle between the shock driving link and the shock is not the only thing that determines frame progressiveness. It is possible to have a design in which the shock driving link appears to create a falling rate but the design is actually rising rate at the wheel. That said, I think the VPX and VP-Free have pretty comparable rates.


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

kidwoo said:


> The only bikes I haven't noticed it on are the v10s. Danno, you got a curve for one of those? I have ridden a newer one with a fox rc and it felt fine.


Here ya go Kidwoo.

I went and searched my drives for an old version of _Linkage2 _ that had V10 data. Found it and just ran it to get the curve you want. You've got good bike feel, because this is basically the opposite of the VPFree. Of course no guarantee on the accuracy of the input data... BTW, you could grab this same type of input data from your VPX. It's simply accurate measurements of pivot points, etc.

V10: rising, flatish, falling - weird that the two bikes are so different.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

.Danno. said:


> V10: rising, flatish, falling - weird that the two bikes are so different.


Kind of wierd what happens at the end there considering this is a bike likely to be ridden off some rough drops.

All of it's kind of a moot point I guess when you look at the tunability of the shocks out there that come on these bikes. If anything I guess it allows even more tunability. With a boost valve or ending stroke damper, I bet the v10 curve comes out a lot more linear. Be interesting to be able to plot it with the influence of the shock.

I like to be able to throw any shock on a bike and have it still feel like I want it to, so that's pretty much the only reason I make a big deal about it.

I might do that with that linkage program. I downloaded it a couple of years ago. I'm guesing the vpx is kind of flattish in the middle with a bit of of a rise just after. Be interesting to see if I'm right.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

WheelieMan said:


> While that is often true, it will not be the case with every design. The angle between the shock driving link and the shock is not the only thing that determines frame progressiveness. It is possible to have a design in which the shock driving link appears to create a falling rate but the design is actually rising rate at the wheel. That said, I think the VPX and VP-Free have pretty comparable rates.


I know it's not the only thing but it is a big factor. I spent a lot of time talking about this with Jan Karpiel and some of my buddies that rode for him when he was redesigning the disco several years ago. He had some proto front triangles he was screwing around with trying to find the rate he was looking for by varying that mount point. The leverage change on a swinglink does vary based on where the other end of the shock is fixed. He had some screwy business ethics but he knows how to build a frame that rides well.

It's my suspicion that this is the only difference in the two bikes because the rides are quite different and shock location is the obvious deviation between the two. I'm just assuming the pivots are in really similar spots. Maybe not.

But I'm not basing my opinions just on looking at the frames. I know how they ride and I can tell when a frame has a rate that falls off when I get a chance to ride it with a linearish shock. That's the first thing I did when I got my uzzi.........take off the swinger and throw an old fox on it. I had to see if it felt like the vpfrees with a similar shock. It doesn't.


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

kidwoo said:


> Kind of wierd what happens at the end there considering this is a bike likely to be ridden off some rough drops.
> 
> All of it's kind of a moot point I guess when you look at the tunability of the shocks out there that come on these bikes. If anything I guess it allows even more tunability. With a boost valve or ending stroke damper, I bet the v10 curve comes out a lot more linear. Be interesting to be able to plot it with the influence of the shock.
> 
> ...


Yeah, certainly a progressive type shock could be set up to flatten out that falling rate happening on the V10 near bottom out.

One last rate curve posted by Darren (Push) that he measured on his Six Pack. It's got a slightly rising, and pretty linear rate. No weird surprises through the stroke. I've got a Pack as well, and like the way it feels with a linear shock setup.


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## sriracha (Jun 23, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> If you don't believe me ride yours with an old fox vanilla rc or a romic. It's pretty obvious when you take off a progressively valved shock. That's one of the reasons I didn't buy one. For almost identical linkages, the two shock mounts between an vpf and vpx are in different places. This gives very different progression rates in the frame.


so, if i ditch the 5th element on my vpfree and put a marzocchi roco on it, is that going to be a positve or negative change?


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

sriracha said:


> so, if i ditch the 5th element on my vpfree and put a marzocchi roco on it, is that going to be a positve or negative change?


That's all subjective.

I know lots of people who like bikes with falling rates. It does give an extra bit of "plushness" mid stroke. But it also makes the suspension feel wierd to me personally when jumping or hitting rough landings. Some people like the feeling of going through their suspension. I like progressive resistance. It's more intuitive to me.

The old hecklers and bullits did this to improve pedaling at the top end while maintaining some squish once the swingarm goes in a little bit. I was blown away the first time I rode a bullit with a 5th element when they first came out. That shock totally changes the way that frame rides. It's an improvement in my mind but may not be for someone else.

My turner dhr is kind of the opposite end......I think it's a little too progressive right at the end of the stroke. It hurts my ankles on crappy landings without ever bottoming. But at the same time gives a very predictable ride on the trail.

I personally wouldn't want a linear stroke shock like the roco on a vpfree, I didn't like how it felt. But that doesn't mean you won't. The 5th/swinger etc enable you to tune the ride to pretty much anything you want barring the platform feature of course. You can also change the air pressure on the roco which may add some progression although that's not really the intention.

I'm kicking around the idea of sticking a roco on my uzzi. I'm not really digging the spv of the swinger I've got on there and the fox rc I've got just doesn't feel as controlled as some of the bigger volume dampers.

Jed and I are going to bootleg this weekend. You down?


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## sriracha (Jun 23, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> That's all subjective.
> 
> I know lots of people who like bikes with falling rates. It does give an extra bit of "plushness" mid stroke. But it also makes the suspension feel wierd to me personally when jumping or hitting rough landings. Some people like the feeling of going through their suspension. I like progressive resistance. It's more intuitive to me.
> 
> Jed and I are going to bootleg this weekend. You down?


the vpfree with the 5th just seems a little redundant to me. small bump compliance is pretty noncompliant. i was hoping that the roco, being a non-platform shock, would give me a more active suspension. on the 5th, i'm running no compression damping and low air pressure (80 psi) with a larger than recommended air volume. i was trying to get rid of the platform. maybe the DHX would be a better option (with that platform dial) than the roco, or the 5th, but the rebuildability of the roco is appealling to me.

pretty sure i can make it to bootleg. funds are tight, but i think it's do-able. if i do go, i'll leave friday night and return sunday.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

sriracha said:


> the vpfree with the 5th just seems a little redundant to me. small bump compliance is pretty noncompliant. i was hoping that the roco, being a non-platform shock, would give me a more active suspension. on the 5th, i'm running no compression damping and low air pressure (80 psi) with a larger than recommended air volume. i was trying to get rid of the platform. maybe the DHX would be a better option (with that platform dial) than the roco, or the 5th, but the rebuildability of the roco is appealling to me.
> .


Sounds like you and I are trying to get the same thing going. My bike with the swinger gets a little chattery on the high speed small stuff.

No matter how minimum the setting, some features are just still there. 



sriracha said:


> pretty sure i can make it to bootleg. funds are tight, but i think it's do-able. if i do go, i'll leave friday night and return sunday.


Sweet. Be good to ride with you. Jed and I just camp there. So food and gas are pretty much the only expenses. Hope you make it.


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## Photo-John (Aug 1, 2001)

*Geometry*

This is an interesting thread. But it's all about suspension and that's not the only factor. I mahe a short travel VP-Free and I've never ridden a bike that made me feel better on jumps. The suspension is good - I guess. I know a little, but I'm no expert. I like the suspension on my Dare better. The reason I love my Mini-Free is the geometry. I've never been on a bike that fit me better and made me feel more confident on jumps, drops, and berms. It's been huge for my confidence level. For what it's worth, it's got a Fox 36 Talas on the front and a shorter eye-to-eye DHX 5 on the back. So it's really low, and I think it's actually slacker than a stock VP-Free.

I've also ridden a whole bunch of bikes at Whistler, including my Dare, a Rocky RMX, and a Rocky Switch. The best bike fr A-Line was the smallest. The Switch with a 66 was so much more maneuverable that it made A-Line and Mert Dirchant way more fun.

I'm not knocking all the suspension talk. Suspension is crtitical to a good, safe ride. But it's not the whole enchilada.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

Photo-John said:


> I'm not knocking all the suspension talk. Suspension is crtitical to a good, safe ride. But it's not the whole enchilada.


Word.

I wanna ride your lowrider. That bike looks rad. You and weir made good geo yo.


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## Photo-John (Aug 1, 2001)

*Give Us a Visit*



kidwoo said:


> Word.
> 
> I wanna ride your lowrider. That bike looks rad. You and weir made good geo yo.


Give us a visit and you can check it out. Or wait till summer and I'll come up there. But you're welcome to ride it. Can't credit me with the bike, though. All the WTB team meat has them. I just tagged along. And haven't regretted it one bit. Funnest bike I've ever owned - except for my SS - but that's another kind of illness.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

Photo-John said:


> Give us a visit and you can check it out. Or wait till summer and I'll come up there. But you're welcome to ride it. Can't credit me with the bike, though. All the WTB team meat has them. I just tagged along. And haven't regretted it one bit. Funnest bike I've ever owned - except for my SS - but that's another kind of illness.


Wanna go to bootleg canyon this weekend? 

Give me a holler this summer if/when you head up. I actually do more xc riding than anything. I can show you some bits you might not be aware of.

I'll do the same if I head down your way. I want to ride santa cruz.


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## Photo-John (Aug 1, 2001)

*Perfect*

Burly XC is perfect. I ride SC almost every weekend. The Mini-Free loves it. I think it would also eat up Tahoe XC. I'm not so sure about Northstar, though. I took it to do long Flume (around tha back), in October and it was great - except for that heinous climb. I love this bike because it can do anything. Except for the climb, it would rule Hole In The Ground. And it's the best for Dville.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

Photo-John said:


> Burly XC is perfect. I ride SC almost every weekend. The Mini-Free loves it. I think it would also eat up Tahoe XC. I'm not so sure about Northstar, though. I took it to do long Flume (around tha back), in October and it was great - except for that heinous climb. I love this bike because it can do anything. Except for the climb, it would rule Hole In The Ground. And it's the best for Dville.


Yeah screw northstar. The xc riding here is better. I can put yo bike to work without the dust fest. 

There have been some very busy beavers up here building some "stuff" the last few years.

dammit........when's summer get here again?


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

Photo-John, I've got a friend that just put an 8.5 X 2.5 on his Free and he likes the lower, slacker geo a lot as well! Too bad it's sprung way too heavy for my weight, I'd like to try it out.

With the hope of not geek-o-rama'n out this thread too badly I've got 3 more pics of the VPX models that I just did.

1) rate curves
2) outline at 0mm rear travel (IC right near the main pivot)
3) outline at 180mm rear travel (IC way out forward and low)

I think I'd like this bike more than the free, less initial falling rate and more rising rate progression at bottom out. Pic 2 & 3 are something I kind of like as well. At top out (pic 2) there's some amount of squat, but when deep in the travel the braking becomes very neutral (pic 3).


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## Photo-John (Aug 1, 2001)

*Not Dissing the Science*



.Danno. said:


> Photo-John, I've got a friend that just put an 8.5 X 2.5 on his Free and he likes the lower, slacker geo a lot as well! Too bad it's sprung way too heavy for my weight, I'd like to try it out.


I don't wanna diss the suspension talk. I'm actually interested. And I don't know if you've thought about it. But putting the shorter eye-to-eye on the Free totally changes the ratio. It takes out the whole platform at the top so that the stroke starts in the plush zone. Makes it feel really gooey. I like it. And if you don't like it, dial in some ProPedal, sucker!

I'd like to see a diagram for the rates on the Mini-Free. Guess someone whould have to give you the data so you can input it.


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

Photo-John said:


> I don't wanna diss the suspension talk. I'm actually interested. And I don't know if you've thought about it. But putting the shorter eye-to-eye on the Free totally changes the ratio. It takes out the whole platform at the top so that the stroke starts in the plush zone. Makes it feel really gooey. I like it. And if you don't like it, dial in some ProPedal, sucker!
> 
> I'd like to see a diagram for the rates on the Mini-Free. Guess someone whould have to give you the data so you can input it.


PJ I agree with ya, I think your shorter shock would make the Free look a lot like the VPX. The curves would be closer to being the same, the travel of the Free would be about like the VPX, and the BB might drop to 14 & 1/4 or so. All good.

If you've got a high res pic of the non-drive side of your bike I could grab the points off of it. The crank arm has to be clear of the pivots, and it's best if it's mildly telephoto so the view is straight on. The shot of the VPX I used I found on the Intense board and it does have a bit of parallax that probably screwed the curves up a bit.


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## Photo-John (Aug 1, 2001)

*Can Do*



.Danno. said:


> If you've got a high res pic of the non-drive side of your bike I could grab the points off of it.


No problem. Since it was a mudfest this weekend, I even cleaned the bike last night. So you'll actually be able to see the frame! I'll shoot it straight-on with a telephoto.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

Cool, thanks for going through the hassle of mapping that thing out.

There is some similarity.....more falling than I would have suspected at first but I guess you never really get a feel for the top two inches.

The x axis is travel right?

Looks like they flattened out the curve at sag and then made it progressive from there. Same with the vpfree cept just more progressive from that point on. That kind of jives with what I was thinking once sagged I guess.

Now I'm all giddy to see what you get with john's bike.


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## Sorelegs (Apr 27, 2004)

*will this help?*

I have a VP-FREE, and it jumps very good.. you should give it a try..A-line jumps are fast so the VP will be nice... build it with all DOWNHILL components.


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## Sorelegs (Apr 27, 2004)

*about the suspension..*

The question here was ...if getting a SC VP-free will help you in jumps, well I think the guys here already answered your question with the diagrams and all of that stuff... but honestly I have to say from my experience with 3 VP-Free's, 2 V-10's and 1 Nomad is the following.

1. the travel and the linear rate will depend very much on the spring rate that you use acording to your weight, it will also affect the rebound settings on your shock. get one sligtly stiffer if you like a fast bike that jumps well and lands confident.

2. I have heard people say that the VP-Free "goes trought its travel fast" that's because some people think that they can buy a bike and it should be "perfect" because of how much it costed...well, hum! maybe they need to get a higher rate coil? humm!! that might help.

3. honestly I have ridden just about every bike there is... and the only thing that feels like "Suspension should feel is the SC design".

4.Get your bike, set it up...play with it... then set it up again..until you get the set up that's right for you, and does what you want. this is what I had to do..but I'M 5' 9" 190 lbs.


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

*Photo-John's Mini Free*

OK, here's the result from a nice hi-res photo I received from Photo-John

Mini Free == VPX

or at least pretty darn close.

Looking at the VPFree curves again (maxi not mini) I can see why Kidwoo thinks it blows though the travel too easily. Your sag is set in that lower leverage falling region at the start of travel. If you average that out it's probably a 20% (at least) lower leverage than the mid travel area. So now when you hit something that goes deeper into travel, you're using effectively a 20% lighter spring than it would have been if you set sag with a flat rate. Bottom line, I wouldn't use a linear shock with the Maxi Free.

Anyway, John's setup doesn't have nearly as much of that initial falling rate stuff going on.

Pics:

1) Rate curves
2) Bike at 0mm compression
3) Bike at 180mm compression (IC out front just like the VPX)


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

One thing I do notice though. The vpx still flattens out and starts getting into the progressive range sooner in the travel. 

Can you juxtapose those two charts?


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

.Danno. said:


> Maxi Free.


BWAAAHHAAAAAHAHAHA

Can't wait to start using that one!

That's really cool how that works out. I wonder if you could feel the difference between the two gradient numbers. IE....the vpx curve goes higher than the mini free curve on the y-axis. I wonder if that translates into anything noticible.

If you're cool with the slight differences in sizing, sounds like the sc frame with a shorter shock could be a good option. Wish you would have done this a few months ago.


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## sriracha (Jun 23, 2004)

.Danno. said:


> Bottom line, I wouldn't use a linear shock with the Maxi Free.


1. is the roco a linear or progressive shock?
2. isn't the linear/progressiveness of a shock partly related to the spring design?
3. newb question: fox dxh vs. roco vs. shorter eye-to-eye roco for vpfree?


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

sriracha said:


> 1. is the roco a linear or progressive shock?
> 2. isn't the linear/progressiveness of a shock partly related to the spring design?
> 3. newb question: fox dxh vs. roco vs. shorter eye-to-eye roco for vpfree?


1. Technically it's a linear shock. There's no progressive feature but you can increase air pressure in the resi chamber. A side effect of this will be a tad more progressive nature since the fluid going into the reservoir has more pressure in the air chamber to deal with. The fox vanilla dh on my turner is pretty much the same design

2. It can be but stratos is the only company I know of that made progressively wound springs.

3. I'd say the dhx. Assuming danno's charts taken from pictures are giving accurate curves, both would be good but you could tune a little more with with dhx. Assuming the mini free mod and the vpx are as close as it looks.........

I'm actually still waffling between the dhx and a roco myself. I like the small bump feel of the rc I've put on my uzzi. But the rebound circuit feels more controlled with the swinger.

If you make it out to bootleg this weekend, let's do this to your bike. I've got the two shocks I've been using on my uzzi you can try out. What do you have on there now? I may be able to track down the right reducer hardware.

I wanna ride one of these setups myself and see how they compare.


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

kidwoo said:


> That's really cool how that works out. I wonder if you could feel the difference between the two gradient numbers. IE....the vpx curve goes higher than the mini free curve on the y-axis. I wonder if that translates into anything noticible.
> 
> If you're cool with the slight differences in sizing, sounds like the sc frame with a shorter shock could be a good option. Wish you would have done this a few months ago.


I'm not sure you could feel the difference. The photo that John sent me was way better quality than the one I was using for the VPX, so there's an accuracy question too.

Bottom line is that the two bikes probably feel about the same, have about the same BB height, the Mini Free will be a little longer for a given size, have longer chainstays and be slacker with the same fork - at least I'm pretty sure about the slacker part. I'll have to measure the HA of my friends Mini. It's an XL though and he's running a Super-T.

Beside, it's gotta be VPX or Mini Free. Somehow, I just would feel quite right about hitting the trails on a Maxi Free.


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## sriracha (Jun 23, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> If you make it out to bootleg this weekend, let's do this to your bike. I've got the two shocks I've been using on my uzzi you can try out. What do you have on there now? I may be able to track down the right reducer hardware.
> 
> I wanna ride one of these setups myself and see how they compare.


bootleg is looking like it's my weekend destination, especially since i haven't seen/ridden with jed, since jackson. i'm down for the shock swap experiments. currently, i have a 5th element on the vpfree.


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

sriracha said:


> 1. is the roco a linear or progressive shock?
> 2. isn't the linear/progressiveness of a shock partly related to the spring design?
> 3. newb question: fox dxh vs. roco vs. shorter eye-to-eye roco for vpfree?


I thought the Roco was not progressive, but I'm haven't seen that question answered clearly anywhere. Darren posted this a little while ago http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=158965

I've actually never seen a progressive spring. They do exist, but that's not what's meant by progressive in the bicycle world these days. Progressiveness is a compression damping thing as far as shocks go. Of course the linkage can be progressive as well.

If the Roco is not progressive I personally wouldn't run it on the Free in either Mini or Maxi mode - the linkage just isn't progressive enough... But who knows, maybe someone's actually done this with good results. For me though, a bike like the Free is meant for hitting some big stuff, and I don't like bottoming out hard when I do that type of thing. Not good for the bike, shock, or the body!


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

sriracha said:


> bootleg is looking like it's my weekend destination, especially since i haven't seen/ridden with jed, since jackson. i'm down for the shock swap experiments. currently, i have a 5th element on the vpfree.


Dammit.

I think progressive uses their own hardware meaning it won't fit into either of my shocks.

Do me a favor if you get a chance. Measure your reducer hardware width while still in the shock. I might have something for my fox rc that we can use. Measure the bolt diameters too.


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## WheelieMan (Jan 19, 2004)

I wouldn't rely on those charts too heavily for comparison purposes, there is simply too much opportunity for error when not using real life data or an extremely high resolution picture.

Before you assume the accuracy of the graphs, it would be a good idea to compare the shock stroke and i2i given in the program to the real life measurements. For general comparisons between two very different suspension designs, high accuracy is probably not needed. But when comparing two very similar designs, the accuracy needs to be much higher in order to make a determination if/how one design would ride different than the other. I've inserted both designs into the program (in fact I've uploaded my version of the Uzzi) and I am getting quite a bit different rate.

Also, according to Intense the VPX has 7.75in. of travel which is roughly 197mm, your graph doesn't reflect that.
The VP-Free also has 215mm of travel.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

WheelieMan said:


> (in fact I've uploaded my version of the Uzzi) and I am getting quite a bit different rate.
> 
> Also, according to Intense the VPX has 7.75in. of travel which is roughly 197mm, your graph doesn't reflect that.
> The VP-Free also has 215mm of travel.


Post whatcha got yo.


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

WheelieMan said:


> I wouldn't rely on those charts too heavily for comparison purposes, there is simply too much opportunity for error when not using real life data or an extremely high resolution picture.
> 
> Before you assume the accuracy of the graphs, it would be a good idea to compare the shock stroke and i2i given in the program to the real life measurements. For general comparisons between two very different suspension designs, high accuracy is probably not needed. But when comparing two very similar designs, the accuracy needs to be much higher in order to make a determination if/how one design would ride different than the other. I've inserted both designs into the program (in fact I've uploaded my version of the Uzzi) and I am getting quite a bit different rate.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I mentioned the accuracy issue. The full travel VP-Free (maxi free) curve was something I had saved from an earlier thread, I know nothing about the data. The VPX pic I used did have quite a bit of parallax, which will affect things. John's pic was the best and I got about 199mm of travel when the shock compressed 63.5mm (2.5").

The things I do believe are that:

-- all three bikes have a falling, flatish, then rising rate
-- the mini free should be identical to the maxi free starting 6.4mm (1/4") into its travel
-- the maxi free will have a larger region of falling rate than the mini free at the start of travel


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## Photo-John (Aug 1, 2001)

*DHX For Mini-Free*



sriracha said:


> 3. newb question: fox dxh vs. roco vs. shorter eye-to-eye roco for vpfree?


Since the Mini-Free is intended to be a burly, and pedalable trail bike, I'd go with the DHX. I dial in a whole bunch of ProPedal if I'm going to be climbing, pedaling on flat or rolly stuff, or if the trail doesn't have many big hits. The ProPedal is also sweet on well-built-jumps - as long as you land reasonably well. It tightens everything up.

My plan has always been to ride my mini setup at home and then buy a 888 and Roco for Northstar and Whistler. But, lately I've been thinking my current setup would be better for A-Line than the long travel kit. The 888/Roco would be better for Garbanzo runs, though.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

double oops


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

WheelieMan said:


> I wouldn't rely on those charts too heavily for comparison purposes, there is simply too much opportunity for error when not using real life data or an extremely high resolution picture.
> 
> Before you assume the accuracy of the graphs, it would be a good idea to compare the shock stroke and i2i given in the program to the real life measurements. For general comparisons between two very different suspension designs, high accuracy is probably not needed. But when comparing two very similar designs, the accuracy needs to be much higher in order to make a determination if/how one design would ride different than the other. I've inserted both designs into the program (in fact I've uploaded my version of the Uzzi) and I am getting quite a bit different rate.
> 
> ...


OK, here's one last VPX rate graph. This was done using an unbuilt frame pic. At 197mm travel the shock is showing 66mm, which is 2.5mm too much, but a lot closer than the earlier version.

Average enough of these you'll probably get the right answer.

I give up... I hope


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

Okay, that curve is pretty different from the first one you posted.

I don't believe anything anymore. I'm gettin a hardtail...........well.........another hardtail.


If I go outside and measure bolt centers, it might help you.


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

kidwoo said:


> Okay, that curve is pretty different from the first one you posted.
> 
> I don't believe anything anymore. I'm gettin a hardtail...........well.........another hardtail.
> 
> If I go outside and measure bolt centers, it might help you.


Yeah, you wouldn't believe how critical the pivot positions are on this VPP linkage. Some I move just 1mm and it makes a noticeable difference - mostly at bottom out. They all generally have the same shape though. I've got to try one of these to see if I can feel the falling rate. It's mostly above sag though, so maybe not. All my bikes (5-Spot, 6-Pack, and 8" SGS DH) are linear rising all the way.

I need to quit while I'm behind


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## drumstix (Dec 31, 2003)

.Danno. said:


> Yeah, you wouldn't believe how critical the pivot positions are on this VPP linkage. Some I move just 1mm and it makes a noticeable difference - mostly at bottom out. They all generally have the same shape though. I've got to try one of these to see if I can feel the falling rate. It's mostly above sag though, so maybe not. All my bikes (5-Spot, 6-Pack, and 8" SGS DH) are linear rising all the way.
> 
> I need to quit while I'm behind


I wonder how the Highline will fit in with these two machines?


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

drumstix said:


> I wonder how the Highline will fit in with these two machines?


Hey bro, maybe that's your next bike!

I'm trying to talk one of the guys I ride with into a HL as a replacement for his RFX. We used to pretty much ride nothing buy DH bikes, but now we've gotten away from all the pushing. He's something like 235 lbs and rides hard. I'm actually surprised how well the RFX has held up to a lot of 10 footish drops, and rocky DH. The HL's gotta be a step up in strength, plus he'd get another couple inches of plushness. Win-win.

I'd guess the HL is probably a bit sturdier than the VPX or Free, but won't pedal quite as well, especially when standing. I'm sure a lot of people will argue about the 'sturdier' comment though


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