# Monster Bikes



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Just initiating this thread so everyone can opine, but hopefully not argue about whether we're in for a spate of really powerful eMTB's piloted by hooligans. Personally, I think if this were the case there would be a lot more individuals riding Cyclone 3000 kits with 72V batteries; 40-50 mph can be attained quite easily for about $1000 plus a donor bike. Many have expressed a contrary concept, so let's hear your predictions. Maybe we'll check back in a couple of years and see who had the best crystal ball.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Just fyi those become e-dirt bikes. Regular mountain bikes can't handle that kind of power without major failure within a relatively short time.

Will we see them, ya, will they be in our bike shops, 95% chance of never. Be seen at other retailers. Won't be a market for them in the cycling community as a whole (though some would probably buy them as a toy) because they would never be allowed on any "human powered" trail. 

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

I speak of where I live...

Don't worry e motos are already here. The big difference is "silence" I'm sure if a person took an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) Moto to a local state park and rode it the sound would attract much attention. One lap through and probably get away, but trying to do laps would bring out the park rangers. Now would they be able to catch a person on an ICE moto? Our local parks have trucks and SUVs that don't fit well on a trail. So much for state parks that have people around. 

We have raced an e moto at our local Vintage Motocross(VMX) venue a few times just to get the feel of how they work racing with ICE motos. Our past national Harescramble champ ran mid pack against 1980s ICE motos. This is at a place where we do VMX races every year and under controlled organized conditions with medical staff and track personnel on hand. 

State forests are unmanned and much bigger land masses. Many have power lines running through them and other access roads. Who would be on patrol there other than a rogue ranger doing some work for a day? I would think even by the time a call came in the ranger would have a hard time locating the uninvited ICE rider. Unless he too was on an ICE or higher powered e bike or e moto. 

E Motos are very quiet and could operate much under the cover of very little sound. E Motos are expensive, and I don't see many people buying in yet, as there as lots more ICE motos out there from years of selling them and they are fairly in expensive to obtain a used one. With that said I have very seldom seen an ICE moto on any of our local trails over the many years I have ridden. Can a person build one cheap? Sure, and ICE motos are cheap as well to obtain an older unit.

I think most people who truly enjoy riding their chosen type of motion, be it, ICE, E moto, or higher powered E bike respect the rules and don't want to hassle anyone, or loose their expensive bike to impound, and fines.

If more venues develop for racing riding e bikes, and e motos there will be less pressure to ride existing human powered trails.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Interesting comments. Out here my wife and I encountered three individuals on ICE bikes once and coincidentally a Ranger. He stated that he wouldn't chase them even if he could apprehend them because if they got in an accident, it could be costly to the county. Go figure. There is at least one shop in the area selling Stealth Fighters and NYX bikes which are illegal to ride anywhere AFAIK; as you indicate, they wouldn't be heard by the rangers. Thought this would elicit some comments from our "less appreciative of ebike members", but doesn't seem to resonate with anyone. On the other hand if people start commenting, one of the mods who don't like ebikes will get rid of it like the others they didn't like.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I would guess that much more powerful e-bikes are coming, though whether stuff over 750w ever becomes a big thing is an open question.

The nightmare scenario is that the moto crowd decide this is a great stealthy way to ride all the trails they want. 

Nice pandora's box kinda thing, really, with adding motors to bikes, but I digress.

-Walt


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I don't think that will happen but it's a possibility since there are many dirt bikers probably itching for the old days when they could ride ICEs all over. Another problem is a group who ride MTB's wherever and whenever they want with impunity. If they "discover" big eMTB's, could be trouble. The "box" was initiated by manufacturers IMO since I don't think DIY would have ever grown to be a problem, but there are divergent opinions that may be closer to reality..


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't think we'll see any monster e-bikes from any big brands. But you'll be able to buy one off the shelf (as now) at lower and lower pricepoints. Chinese manufacturers will slap pedals on 1500W+ bikes and put a 750W sticker on them (this arguably already happens with the various DIY kits) and import them, etc, etc. Sooner or later they will end up on the trails. 

-Walt


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Cost and weight are going to ultimately determine how popular the bigger wattage bikes get.

Right now it seems to me like they are too expensive to draw the moto crowd, and they don't really compete with a moto when it comes to riding in places where one can go 80mph flat out in the desert, or jump off a giant Dune....

The biggest problem with them however is not how many people get them, it is how many of those who do get them ride them on Mutli-use trails and cause enough of a disturbance/go too fast, etc to get the local land managers involved. Once that happens, how will the Land Managers proceed? No one can truly answer that question yet, all we can do is look to other cases of trail management that are effected by the speed of the rider.

Right now this is the only case of speed closing a trail system that I know of:

LAH council mulls Byrne Preserve bicycle ban

If this sort of re-action becomes the norm, then more and more trails have the potential to get closed to all bikes due to the actions of a few.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

W, agree the price point could be quite low if some Chinese "manufacturers" take a cheap full suspension bike and put a big motor on it; fast, poor handling monstrosity. Still don't perceive it happening, but could be wishful thinking; the ramifications would be immediate and severe in some areas. Don't see what can be done about it except peer pressure.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

So, I have a road bike, several mtn bks, an ebike, a tandem, a big bore enduro, and two MX bikes (2stroke and 4 stroke). While I immensely enjoy pedaling my Levo, I never once even wanted to ride, much less buy, an emoto. I can buy used dirt bikes all day long on the internets for $1500. Now, I can't speak for people that ride the track on their motos, but I don't see anyone that enjoys riding back country on their motos buying an emoto. It just ain't gonna happen. Sure, you might see a couple of stragglers out there, but I just don't see it as a major fad. Maybe only in certain areas of the country at the most. You could probably buy a used dirt bike for the cost of a battery. Just ain't going to happen.

The thing that is going to happen though is hoards of people buying Levos. Especially the older crowd.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

GW, I agree with you, but the big difference between an emoto and a moto is the noise. Where I reside individuals can't ride a moto because they would be heard, but because there are sparsely-utilized expanses in off road areas that might be policed if the Rangers heard ICE noise, they could get away with riding an emoto. I posted this to get as many opinions as possible (should have had a poll).


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Here's the context where I live, which is pretty similar to other places with an urban/wildlands interface in the west. Most of the riding takes place in city and county parkland which is heavily multi use, dog walkers/runners/hikers/families and mtbs. Once you get to the edge of town, you butt up against USFS which is less crowded the farther you move out. We also have a state park which is it's own isolated area with a fee. 

All of it is non motorized except for a few trails in USFS. NONE of it has any significant enforcement, really closer to zero enforcement. Our parks dept has 7 full time rangers with a few added seasonally for 44,000 acres and 250 miles of trail. Their policy is focused on maintenance and not enforcement. They don't give tickets out now period, they'll call for a LEO if they need to. Except when I been out with them, I've NEVER seen a USFS ranger in the wild in the last 30 years. Occasionally, I'll see ICE tracks where they shouldn't be, but it doesn't happen often.

I see emtbs broken down into 3 catagories currently, legal 250-750w OEM and kit bikes, high powered kit bikes and high powered stealth and stealth clones. No one will make any distinctions in the real world between an ebike with a throttle or not, so that is moot IMO.

If it was legal to ride a Class 1 bike here, you could get away with a BBSHD pushed to 1500w+ or a 3000w cyclone on the busy trails since you're strapping it on a bike, so even though they are noisier than a Levo, you could still pass it off as a legal 750w to anyone who asks. I'd expect to see those from either mtb riders or guys who have one foot in moto and one in mtb who just want to ride fast and have a moto-lite experience. It's affordable enough if you've got an old long travel bike in the garage and $2000 or so, you can make a new toy. Considering they only weigh a few pounds more than an OEM emtb, and are on a chassis that is well designed for trail riding, I see them as appealing to a certain group of riders. We won't see a lot certainly, but a few for sure, peer pressure and the fact that you have to build them will keep the numbers low. If some enterprising person opened a business building turnkey kit ebikes where you drop off your bike, buy your kit and he does the rest, I think you'll see more.

The Stealth clones and bikes with decidedly moto styling I don't think we'll see in any significant numbers on the trail for the same reasons already mentioned. Even the clones are fairly expensive, they're heavy, they stand out and not really suited for the twisty singletrack many of us ride. The clones especially are pretty junky for true offroad riding. You could get away with riding them on USFS if you wanted, no one would stop you, but not on the busy trails, you'd catch a lot of flak. I do expect to see them on the streets and bike paths though, although not in great numbers again. 

We've got a shop in town that sells all sort of Chinese outdoor toy stuff, like electric kick scooters, fake Whizzer kits that the homeless and DUI guys buy to bolt on their bikes. I expect them to start selling the sort of "ebikes" that a bike shop wouldn't touch and shouldn't be on a bike path once they are legal here.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

We wouldn't be having this discussion if it was just hub motors the mid drives changed everything , and Yamaha and KTM will take it farther and refine it .


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm wanting one of these, for my kid of course. 

OSET 24.0 Racing 2017 - OSET Bikes

Or maybe this 8000 watter, way cheaper than a Levo, 40mph.
The manufacturer suggests you "hit the mountain bike trails" with it. :thumbsup:

Kuberg Free-Rider Electric Motorcycle | Adventure Designs


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> The manufacturer suggests you "hit the mountain bike trails" with it. :thumbsup:


Yep, there's that. FF to 2:45






I love those OSETs, just too cool.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Zaaaapp...


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Haha "they were riding on mountain bike trails where motos can't go"...

Perfect. There's your future.

-Walt


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Exactly


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Harryman said:


> Yep, there's that. FF to 2:45
> 
> ...
> 
> I love those OSETs, just too cool.


Ouch. 
That snippet aside, that's a pretty f'ing cool MX machine. I imagine the run time is seriously short but damn, with some range a lot of fun could be had on a rig like that.

I really dig those Osets also and have for a while. Look like a hoot to mess around on; tons of fun right in the yard. The boy's pushing hard for a 85cc 2-stroke big time these days though, so it's probably not going to happen any time soon. Only so many toys we can slide past the warden.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Just for the sake of clarification, but are you all referencing the Dayask (?) bikes advertised on this forum, to the right? Sorry if I'm a step behind.

Anyway, they are advertised as e-bikes but you could've fooled me.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ouch.
> That snippet aside, that's a pretty f'ing cool MX machine. I imagine the run time is seriously short but damn, with some range a lot of fun could be had on a rig like that.


no, on a full size Electric Motorcycle you have some pretty good distance these days.

ZERO MOTORCYCLES ? The Electric Motorcycle Company - Official Site

202 Miles on a charge.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> no, on a full size Electric Motorcycle you have some pretty good distance these days.
> 
> ZERO MOTORCYCLES ? The Electric Motorcycle Company - Official Site
> 
> 202 Miles on a charge.


Looks like their offroad version is good for "40-140" minutes of hard riding.
It'll do 85 mph.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Looks like their offroad version is good for "40-140" minutes of hard riding.
> It'll do 85 mph.


You can go pretty far in 140 min of solid riding, even if you are not doing 85. I don't really see bikes like this replacing a true ICE dirt bike. One can ride just about all day on an XR600 with a single tank of gas, especially if you have a bigger desert tank.

However, if you have something like this, then you might be temped to take it where you know an ICE cannot go. Right now I don't think this is an issue, but in a few years when there is a supply of these sorts of bikes on the used market and much cheaper prices things may be different. Really only time will tell.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I don't think we'll see e motorcycles swarming mtb trails, it would be tempting if you lived where they were pretty empty, but around here, it would be a sh!tshow.

I do think they could help invogorate the moto scene which is dying a slow death where I live. Without the noise issue, you could have tracks and riding areas close to population centers, heck, you could have a trials center next to your soccer fields if you had a forward thinking parks dept.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Doesn't seem (to me) that $10,000 emotos are the problem even if they're much cheaper used; biggest potential for effecting access IMO is inexpensive (and cheap) ebikes that could have 3Kw of power for around $1000 or less someday soon (with apologies to Joni Mitchell).


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

They already are making incursions onto bike only trails so any suggestions that they aren't going to be a problem is laughable.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Kinda sounds like bikers on "hike only" trails. Happens everyday.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Kinda sounds like bikers on "hike only" trails. Happens everyday.


Big difference being bikers on hiker only trails aren't going to also get the hikers kicked off. E-bikes will get real bikes kicked out by association. It's one thing to screw yourself, a totally different thing to screw the everybody else.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Kinda sounds like bikers on "hike only" trails. Happens everyday.


And that makes it acceptable how?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

tiretracks said:


> They already are making incursions onto bike only trails so any suggestions that they aren't going to be a problem is laughable.


TT, did you mean the expensive ($10K) emotos? If so, I've never seen or heard of one on MTB trails.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> And that makes it acceptable how?


Never said it was acceptable, just saying it's an issue and yes, hikers get pissed. The guys that don't ride ebikes act like complete angels. It's funny. Maybe y'all are but there's bad apples everywhere.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

The problem with ebikes and mtbs with the trails are not from people that are "into" the sport, it's quite often the people that are new and have no clue.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

A few ebikers that poach trails, should not represent the majority of riders, same as mtbs.


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