# Vorsprung Smashpot Coil Conversion



## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

So, Vorsprung have an upcoming coil conversion for forks and I thought it would be good to get a thread going. 
One thing I noticed they are doing that Push are not is supporting travel up to 180mm. I have a brand new 36 on the way and will be getting a smashpot when they come out, I've heard towards the end of the year.

Spring looks like it runs the entire length of the fork, is there an advantage doing this way?

More details here;

https://bikerumor.com/2018/09/10/cr...bike-care-products-and-yakimas-hangover-rack/


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

If you click through to the article, be sure to scroll down and read the comment and Vorsprung’s detailed and frankly epic reply.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Whoops, fat fingers = double post! See below.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

B Rabbit said:


> So, Vorsprung have an upcoming coil conversion for forks and I thought it would be good to get a thread going.
> One thing I noticed they are doing that Push are not is supporting travel up to 180mm. I have a brand new 36 on the way and will be getting a smashpot when they come out, I've heard towards the end of the year.
> 
> Spring looks like it runs the entire length of the fork, is there an advantage doing this way?
> ...


We run a longer spring for a few reasons:

1. It lets us get 170mm and 180mm travel variants. Modern singlecrown forks run quite short stanchions relative to their travel, fitting a coil in there is actually surprisingly difficult and there is a distinct ceiling on both travel and available spring rate for coils within those confines. It seems self-evident that riders running the longest travel bikes are the ones most inclined to prioritise the bump-eating aspects of suspension performance over the lightest possible weight, so cutting out the longest travel variants didn't make much sense to us.

2. Running a cartridge-style system where the topout assembly is housed inside the main spring allows us to make a universal kit that can easily be installed in different forks and/or at different travels. Different forks only require different top caps (and foot studs if changing brands, the RS and Fox ones are different) but everything else is the same, including the springs. This means you can pull the cartridge out of one fork and install it in a different one, at a different travel if need be (changing travel is done with spacers provided in the kit, no new parts), at a minimum of cost.

There's a few other logistical aspects (particularly relevant to shops and suspension workshops actually) that this design addresses as well - it means shops can stock the kits at very low risk that they'll end up with expensive parts that never happen to fit their customer's particular fork, because the most expensive bits fit everything.

Also there are a couple of minor errors in that Bikerumor article for anyone who cares - only one EWS racer so far was actually running the Smashpot, although there were a number of high profile riders on Luftkappes through 2017 and 18. Secondly, the kit is actually 130-180mm adjustable (not 140-180).

There's a bit more going on with these kits that we haven't revealed yet, full info including pricing and release date will be forthcoming once they're ready to go. Feel free to email with any questions in the meantime.

Steve
Vorsprung Suspension


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## fabianpaul007 (Jun 14, 2018)

Can you please give some more information about the "progressive engagement hydraulic anti-bottom out"? How does it work? Is it adjustable on the fly? How noisy is the coil?


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I really don't get the coil hype. From what I understand is that a coil fork is going to feel *very* similar to a properly functioning air fork.


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## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

jonshonda said:


> I really don't get the coil hype. From what I understand is that a coil fork is going to feel *very* similar to a properly functioning air fork.


You have to try one. The reduction in stiction is yuuge. Especially in cooler weather. And no funky spring rate at the start of the travel, just buttery smooth linear predictable travel. Not to mention that the spring rate remains the same at all temperatures.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

jonshonda said:


> I really don't get the coil hype. From what I understand is that a coil fork is going to feel *very* similar to a properly functioning air fork.


A good air spring works very well overall. Sounds like you've never ridden a coil system though? Try one and judge for yourself. Coil spring systems have advantages and disadvantages - the spring rate is completely linear (advantage in the first 1/3 of the stroke for compliance and the middle 1/3 for mid-stroke support, disadvantage at the end where higher force is beneficial, hence the anti-bottoming system), friction is zero vs "low enough" in air springs, they are completely temperature insensitive, they're considerably heavier, they don't get stickier between services, they have distinct spring increments instead of being infinitely adjustable, you can run a lot more lubricant in the lowers, etc.

Horses for courses. We are certainly not abandoning air springs, but there's a certain contingent of people who just want their bikes to eat bumps as well as possible with minimum fuss even if it's a bit heavier. Those are the people who'll want this kit. For others, the Luftkappe might serve you better.


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## jimarin (Mar 19, 2005)

Super genius.. Another take on the coil that looks very well thought out. Johnshonda, even the latest and greatest air springs don't compare to the feel of a coil. I've been on the push coil a year and rode the 2019 36 with the air spring for a few weeks to see if it was as good as they say. It just can't match the suppleness and consistent feel of a coil. I've already gone back to coil since. While the air has gotten better it's still not really "coil like" as they claim with each new fork model year release. It may seem like it until you actually ride a coil. Kudos Vorsprung, thanks for the continued innovation.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

SteveVS - How old of a fork do you guys make this kit for? I have a 2010 Fox 36 that I would love a coil for. I'm not in any position to buy a new bike anytime soon, but I can foot the bill for a coil kit. I'm still riding a 26" Knolly Chilcotin.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jonshonda said:


> I really don't get the coil hype. From what I understand is that a coil fork is going to feel *very* similar to a properly functioning air fork.


Sounds like you've never ridden a properly setup coil fork. They beat air springs everywhere.

Air springs with three chambers (negative and two positive) do a very good job. But there is absolutely nothing that behaves and feels like a coil spring.

We're looking forward to delivery of these. They fill a big gap in the market.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

the-one1 said:


> SteveVS - How old of a fork do you guys make this kit for? I have a 2010 Fox 36 that I would love a coil for. I'm not in any position to buy a new bike anytime soon, but I can foot the bill for a coil kit. I'm still riding a 26" Knolly Chilcotin.


At the moment, back to 2015 for the 36. The difference between a kit to fit the 2015 and a 2010 is just a top cap though due to the modular design, so hardly unreasonable to make something for that.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

jimarin said:


> Super genius.. Another take on the coil that looks very well thought out. Johnshonda, even the latest and greatest air springs don't compare to the feel of a coil. I've been on the push coil a year and rode the 2019 36 with the air spring for a few weeks to see if it was as good as they say. It just can't match the suppleness and consistent feel of a coil. I've already gone back to coil since. While the air has gotten better it's still not really "coil like" as they claim with each new fork model year release. It may seem like it until you actually ride a coil. Kudos Vorsprung, thanks for the continued innovation.


Thanks for the kind words. Credit where credit is due though - the speed sensitive HBO system was pioneered by Jeremy Wilkey at MX-Tech several years ago, we've adapted that concept for MTB and made it externally adjustable to account for the proportionally wider weight range of MTBs.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I'll be converting my 36 to coil over the winter. Will definitely have to give this kit a hard look vs Push in execution, price & weight.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Thanks for all the feedback on the coil vs. air, as you can tell I have zero experience with a coil fork. Makes sense to me and I do notice a difference in colder temps. Hmmmm…..already have an Avy cart in the pike, but now it sounds like I need to think about coil.


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## mike156 (Jul 10, 2017)

Is there any inheriant benefit to being coil or air on both ends of the bike?

(front/rear)
air/coil vs coil/coil vs coil/air?

Recently switched to coil on the rear and some types of features just feel really poor now but I haven't been able to tune it out with damper adjustments. It feels like under moderate loads, the rear is too deep in it's travel and the weight balance front to rear is off.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mike156 said:


> Is there any inheriant benefit to being coil or air on both ends of the bike?
> 
> (front/rear)
> air/coil vs coil/coil vs coil/air?


I've got all three options on bikes here. Currently running air front and coil rear on my most used bike. It depends on a hundred factors but generally you can get them to balance well even with different springs at each end.

My preference is coil/coil. Advantages of air are lighter weight and easy spring rate adjustments.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

would be nice to have a coil option for the mattoc to go with my coil shock.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

tbmaddux said:


> If you click through to the article, be sure to scroll down and read the comment and Vorsprung's detailed and frankly epic reply.


Just read it, epic indeed.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

POAH said:


> would be nice to have a coil option for the mattoc to go with my coil shock.


Not yet unfortunately. I've already checked with Steve and the Mattoc stanchion ID is a shade too small.


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## VelkePivo (Oct 26, 2018)

Hi Steve. Would your coil conversion play nicely with my pre-existing Avalanche damping cartridge? Maybe that's a question for Craig at Avy? 

Would you be able to give a rough estimate on availability? Like, before next Spring?

Thanks in advance.


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## pharmkid85 (Mar 29, 2017)

Captured spring...does this mean we can go back to air after installation if we want vs the PUSH system being a one and done conversion?


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

VelkePivo said:


> Hi Steve. Would your coil conversion play nicely with my pre-existing Avalanche damping cartridge? Maybe that's a question for Craig at Avy?
> 
> Would you be able to give a rough estimate on availability? Like, before next Spring?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


No reason why it wouldn't work with your Avalanche cartridge - might want to play around a little with reducing oil volume on the damper side since it's no longer necessary to use that for bottoming control, but that's the extent of the concerns. Definitely available well before spring.



pharmkid85 said:


> Captured spring...does this mean we can go back to air after installation if we want vs the PUSH system being a one and done conversion?


We can't guarantee that would be possible - the spring has a certain amount of clearance and the cartridge has a certain amount of flex (as does the fork chassis) so some amount of spring rub is inevitable, meaning there is always the possibility of scoring the stanchion ID. The guide *reduces* spring contact with the stanchion, but doesn't guarantee that contact would be eliminated.

With that said, various coil-sprung forks we've inspected have shown no real visible marking on the stanchions from the coil, so it may be possible to go back to air in many cases, but we certainly wouldn't be able to guarantee that across the board.


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## VelkePivo (Oct 26, 2018)

Steve VS said:


> No reason why it wouldn't work with your Avalanche cartridge - might want to play around a little with reducing oil volume on the damper side since it's no longer necessary to use that for bottoming control, but that's the extent of the concerns. Definitely available well before spring.


Great. Thanks for the quick reply. Looking forward to the Smashpot being available. HATE my Pikes.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Ole said:


> You have to try one. The reduction in stiction is yuuge. Especially in cooler weather. And no funky spring rate at the start of the travel, just buttery smooth linear predictable travel. Not to mention that the spring rate remains the same at all temperatures.


Not to mention the nostalgia factor for the old Marzocchi forks.


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## mobilenemo (Jun 16, 2009)

Will the smashpot be available for 26 pikes from 2014?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

mobilenemo said:


> Will the smashpot be available for 26 pikes from 2014?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not yet confirmed, but quite likely.


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## VelkePivo (Oct 26, 2018)

Curveball said:


> Not to mention the nostalgia factor for the old Marzocchi forks.


If remembering how good a fork can actually be is nostalgia, then count me as a sentimental old lady.

My first MZ RC3 fork was a revelation. I couldn't believe how good it was. Since then I've heard a lot about how far air suspension has advanced, but I have a 2015 Pike with an Avy cartridge and I think it's scandalous how bad it is. It's OK on slow hits but on anything like a fast square edged hit it's horrendous. I've tried every setting I could after countless hours of internet research and the only thing that helped a bit was getting a new debonair air spring. Better, but still crap. Maybe I just got a lemon, but in the course of my research I sure read a lot of people hating theirs, too.

I guess if you ride on smooth or loamy trails the Pike could be OK.


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## VelkePivo (Oct 26, 2018)

And i can't help but notice how each year the new air suspension products are touted as getting closer to coil in feel. That tells me that claims from, say, 5 years ago about how smooth the air suspension was, was just marketing bullshit. Probably still bullshit today.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Dougal said:


> Not yet unfortunately. I've already checked with Steve and the Mattoc stanchion ID is a shade too small.


With my Avy cartridge i did 2 less clicks of LSC since the mid travel support is much better with a coil.


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## VelkePivo (Oct 26, 2018)

I just want to add that I've had an Avalanche Chubie, an Avy cartridge in my MZ 44 RC3 Ti and have an Avy cartridge in my MZ 380and Pike. Avy stuff is great. I'm in no way faulting Avalanche for how bad my Pike feels (to me).


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

Is it possible to convert a 170mm Fox 36 to 180mm with this kit?


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## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

I thought I wanted a coil fork until I installed a Luftkappe. This seems like a very very well thought out kit though.


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

VelkePivo said:


> And i can't help but notice how each year the new air suspension products are touted as getting closer to coil in feel. That tells me that claims from, say, 5 years ago about how smooth the air suspension was, was just marketing bullshit. Probably still bullshit today.


It's still BS today....that's why you have all these people coming out with aftermarket kits to fix your brand new expensive fork.


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## crseekins (Oct 7, 2008)

Steve VS said:


> No reason why it wouldn't work with your Avalanche cartridge - might want to play around a little with reducing oil volume on the damper side since it's no longer necessary to use that for bottoming control, but that's the extent of the concerns. Definitely available well before spring.
> 
> We can't guarantee that would be possible - the spring has a certain amount of clearance and the cartridge has a certain amount of flex (as does the fork chassis) so some amount of spring rub is inevitable, meaning there is always the possibility of scoring the stanchion ID. The guide *reduces* spring contact with the stanchion, but doesn't guarantee that contact would be eliminated.
> 
> With that said, various coil-sprung forks we've inspected have shown no real visible marking on the stanchions from the coil, so it may be possible to go back to air in many cases, but we certainly wouldn't be able to guarantee that across the board.


Just to clear up a couple things, our oil height/volume generates pressure on the oil to prevent cavitation and has only a minor affect on ramp-up compared to the air side or bottom-out systems. Our open bath cartridge also provides bottom control with our optional ABS hydraulic system that we have offered as part of our design for 20 Years. Just another note we have designed and tuned our cartridge for coil systems originally, adapted them for single damper air systems and so there is no reason it would not work very well with the Smashpot Coil conversion.
We currently offer a coil conversion option for the Fox 36 160/150 travels. It uses a dual spring system in conjunction with our cartridge system. It will also work well with any other coil system (Push, TFTuned).
Dual Coil Conversion Option


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

VelkePivo said:


> I just want to add that I've had an Avalanche Chubie, an Avy cartridge in my MZ 44 RC3 Ti and have an Avy cartridge in my MZ 380and Pike. Avy stuff is great. I'm in no way faulting Avalanche for how bad my Pike feels (to me).


On my Chubie each click gave a noticeable difference when addjusting it. With my Yari I would be fiddling with it between services (which were often) and it took a few clicks to feel a difference. Once i went to coil each click is like the Chubie now. RS forks have a ton of stiction IMHO


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Tree said:


> Is it possible to convert a 170mm Fox 36 to 180mm with this kit?


With the Smashpot, it will be possible to run any compatible fork at anything up to its maximum chassis-specified travel by changing the spacer configuration of the kit in 10mm increments. In the case of 36s that is usually either 160mm or 180mm, depending on the model year and the damper configuration (some dampers are 160 max, others 180 max). If your fork is 170mm right now, chances are it is 180-compatible. There are a handful of OEM forks out there that don't quite obey the "usual" maximum travel rules-of-thumb however.



GRPABT1 said:


> I thought I wanted a coil fork until I installed a Luftkappe. This seems like a very very well thought out kit though.


Glad you're liking the Luftkappe. Truthfully, coil forks aren't for everyone. They are noticeably heavier and you lack the infinite adjustment of an air spring, but the linear initial spring rate and complete lack of sliding friction definitely help with the feel and the grip. Again, we are certainly not abandoning air springs, just giving people options. If compliance and grip when descending are your main priority and the weight is not a big concern for you, then coils are hard to argue with. If you do a ton of climbing and you really enjoy a light bike, or you alter settings from one riding scenario to another fairly frequently, or even if you just like a super progressive setup in general then air sprung stuff is great.


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## VelkePivo (Oct 26, 2018)

crseekins said:


> Just to clear up a couple things, our oil height/volume generates pressure on the oil to prevent cavitation and has only a minor affect on ramp-up compared to the air side or bottom-out systems. Our open bath cartridge also provides bottom control with our optional ABS hydraulic system that we have offered as part of our design for 20 Years. Just another note we have designed and tuned our cartridge for coil systems originally, adapted them for single damper air systems and so there is no reason it would not work very well with the Smashpot Coil conversion.
> We currently offer a coil conversion option for the Fox 36 160/150 travels. It uses a dual spring system in conjunction with our cartridge system. It will also work well with any other coil system (Push, TFTuned).
> Dual Coil Conversion Option


Great. Thanks for the confirmation.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

VelkePivo said:


> If remembering how good a fork can actually be is nostalgia, then count me as a sentimental old lady.
> 
> My first MZ RC3 fork was a revelation. I couldn't believe how good it was. Since then I've heard a lot about how far air suspension has advanced, but I have a 2015 Pike with an Avy cartridge and I think it's scandalous how bad it is. It's OK on slow hits but on anything like a fast square edged hit it's horrendous. I've tried every setting I could after countless hours of internet research and the only thing that helped a bit was getting a new debonair air spring. Better, but still crap. Maybe I just got a lemon, but in the course of my research I sure read a lot of people hating theirs, too.
> 
> I guess if you ride on smooth or loamy trails the Pike could be OK.


I had the same impression of the Pike that you do. I was oh-so-happy to get rid of that POS.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Christopher Robin said:


> It's still BS today....that's why you have all these people coming out with aftermarket kits to fix your brand new expensive fork.


Which is why I bought an MRP Ribbon coil for my current bike. I liked the idea of going coil from the get-go.

I do have to admit that my last air fork, a Marzocchi 350 NCR was pretty nice. Not quite coil nice though.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Steve VS said:


> With the Smashpot, it will be possible to run any compatible fork at anything up to its maximum chassis-specified travel by changing the spacer configuration of the kit in 10mm increments. In the case of 36s that is usually either 160mm or 180mm, depending on the model year and the damper configuration (some dampers are 160 max, others 180 max). If your fork is 170mm right now, chances are it is 180-compatible. There are a handful of OEM forks out there that don't quite obey the "usual" maximum travel rules-of-thumb however.
> 
> Glad you're liking the Luftkappe. Truthfully, coil forks aren't for everyone. They are noticeably heavier and you lack the infinite adjustment of an air spring, but the linear initial spring rate and complete lack of sliding friction definitely help with the feel and the grip. Again, we are certainly not abandoning air springs, just giving people options. If compliance and grip when descending are your main priority and the weight is not a big concern for you, then coils are hard to argue with. If you do a ton of climbing and you really enjoy a light bike, or you alter settings from one riding scenario to another fairly frequently, or even if you just like a super progressive setup in general then air sprung stuff is great.


That compliance is very helpful when you ride a lot of wet roots.

This looks like a very cool product by the way.


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

I'm interested in this product. Question - does it have a negative spring hidden somewhere, maybe between the rods? The push acs3 has it visible on pictures. Just curious.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

ben_mtb said:


> I'm interested in this product. Question - does it have a negative spring hidden somewhere, maybe between the rods? The push acs3 has it visible on pictures. Just curious.


Yep, the topout spring is inside the cartridge.


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## OrenPerets (May 1, 2006)

Steve,

any news with fox34 compatibility?

thx
Oren


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

OrenPerets said:


> Steve,
> 
> any news with fox34 compatibility?
> 
> ...


No 34 compatibility at this stage unfortunately!


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## miniwisejosh (Sep 14, 2007)

Steve,

How about current/future plans for a DVO Diamond kit?


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

miniwisejosh said:


> Steve,
> 
> How about current/future plans for a DVO Diamond kit?


Likely - depends on demand but easy enough to do.


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## miniwisejosh (Sep 14, 2007)

Steve VS said:


> Likely - depends on demand but easy enough to do.


Excellent. I hope it works out. Please count me as a contributor to demand for a DVO coil.


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## crimedog (Dec 29, 2014)

miniwisejosh said:


> Excellent. I hope it works out. Please count me as a contributor to demand for a DVO coil.


Especially since it has a removable air cartridge and you could likely go back and forth. Seems like a great option. If I have the funds when it drops I'm a buyer (just being real.)


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

Steve VS said:


> No 34 compatibility at this stage unfortunately!


Please add my request for a 34 variant (130mm) to the pile! Gracias.


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

Steve VS said:


> Likely - depends on demand but easy enough to do.


how about cc helm?


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## inaxganja (Aug 8, 2016)

Me also interested of CC Helm Coil kit from Vorsprung!


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

ghostbiker said:


> how about cc helm?


Possible - again dependent on demand.


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

Steve, how linear will the conversion be without any HBO engaged? (I’m simlpy assuming that the HBO will have a range of adjustment)


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

bigcrs said:


> Steve, how linear will the conversion be without any HBO engaged? (I'm simlpy assuming that the HBO will have a range of adjustment)


Set to minimum it has pretty minimal effect. Set to maximum it's quite firm, firmer than I think most people would want. The range is quite wide. And if you really want it to be zero, you can revalve it lighter or for no resistance at all.


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

Steve VS said:


> Set to minimum it has pretty minimal effect. Set to maximum it's quite firm, firmer than I think most people would want. The range is quite wide. And if you really want it to be zero, you can revalve it lighter or for no resistance at all.


Interesting stuff. Will the kits be custom tuned to the individual customer?


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

bigcrs said:


> Interesting stuff. Will the kits be custom tuned to the individual customer?


They can be, upon request, but the range of adjustment is wide and its effect on every other aspect of performance besides bottoming control is nil (ie very easy to set up because it doesn't affect anything else), so not really anticipating that'll be necessary or beneficial in anything but the most extreme cases.


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

Steve VS said:


> They can be, upon request, but the range of adjustment is wide and its effect on every other aspect of performance besides bottoming control is nil (ie very easy to set up because it doesn't affect anything else), so not really anticipating that'll be necessary or beneficial in anything but the most extreme cases.


Okay, got ya.

What about lubrication, sounds like it'll be an open bath application?

Fingers crossed it is open bath. Avy cart one side, Smashpot the other - it would mean almost zero maintenance.


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

Has Vorsprung got any updates of when this might be available to us plebs?


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

B Rabbit said:


> Has Vorsprung got any updates of when this might be available to us plebs?


Hey mate. Got an email from Steve this morning. Should be available mid to late Jan. 
Waiting on the spring manufacturer to stump up the goods. 
I'm all over one of these like a fat kid on a donut.
Might be able to combine shipping to the homeland to reduce costs 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bigcrs said:


> it would mean almost zero maintenance.


Just a word of caution, they still need cleaning and oil changes. Even if they're running great.

Many old school marzocchi owners did no maintenance, then when they did open the fork found it was grinding itself to pieces with debris on the bushings below the seals.

Same reason you change oil in your car!


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Can someone compare the pros & cons of the smashpot vs the ACS3? I'm assuming the main difference will be in bottom out system?


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

WHALENARD said:


> Can someone compare the pros & cons of the smashpot vs the ACS3? I'm assuming the main difference will be in bottom out system?


Also variable length and option to interchange to other forks.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Just a word of caution, they still need cleaning and oil changes. Even if they're running great.
> 
> Many old school marzocchi owners did no maintenance, then when they did open the fork found it was grinding itself to pieces with debris on the bushings below the seals.
> 
> Same reason you change oil in your car!


No I understand, that's why I said 'almost'. My riding mate was one of those guys. Jeez he still is lol. He still doesn't get why his Pike is running like crap with zero services since (almost 3 years) got the thing.

My Avy'd forks of the past would see more oil changes than was necessary beacause of the wipers, air spring service and year round PNW riding conditions.

IF the Smashpot is open bath, and depending on the fork it's dropped into, it'll probably see more oil changes than required because of the damper (and everything listed above) service intervals.

At this stage it is a big 'IF', because we have next to no details on the Smashpot.

Man I love Smashpot as a name. My next dog (or for some crazy medically impossible way I end up with a kid) will most likely be called Smashpot!


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## bike_futurist (Nov 12, 2018)

pike/revelation compatible?


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## bike_futurist (Nov 12, 2018)

ah yos it says so in the article, sorry


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

JTmofo said:


> Hey mate. Got an email from Steve this morning. Should be available mid to late Jan.
> Might be able to combine shipping to the homeland to reduce costs
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Lets do it!


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

B Rabbit said:


> Lets do it!


I'll catch up with you on another forum. DM coming your way.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

bigcrs said:


> My Avy'd forks of the past would see more oil changes than was necessary beacause of the wipers, air spring service and year round PNW riding conditions.


Maybe that was because of sloppy old forks without annodized internals or something? I change it out of my Lyric and Yarilanche and it's not contaminated/broken down. Few places have as much mud as we do in AK, bottom brackets sometimes last only a few rides. But the Avy cart fork doesn't seem to care. I change the oil at the beginning of the season (spring) and it runs great. 3 years or so, only thing that broke was the creaky crown of the original Lyrik, but has nothing to do with damping.


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

Jayem said:


> Maybe that was because of sloppy old forks without annodized internals or something? I change it out of my Lyric and Yarilanche and it's not contaminated/broken down. Few places have as much mud as we do in AK, bottom brackets sometimes last only a few rides. But the Avy cart fork doesn't seem to care. I change the oil at the beginning of the season (spring) and it runs great. 3 years or so, only thing that broke was the creaky crown of the original Lyrik, but has nothing to do with damping.


hm, most suspension experts say that mud isn´t the worst for the fork wipers, but moon dust is. That thing will make it through any seal given enough time.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

After a full weekend of DH riding in moon-dust at my local lift assist hill (clay based) you would be surprised at how dirty my open bath damper oil gets. And that is with fresh SKF green seals.

Powder sugar fine dust sucks.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mykel said:


> After a full weekend of DH riding in moon-dust at my local lift assist hill (clay based) you would be surprised at how dirty my open bath damper oil gets. And that is with fresh SKF green seals.
> 
> Powder sugar fine dust sucks.


I'd bet that is just oil breaking down and changing colour. Here's a pictorial:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BJwIt5Cjchs/

Oil breakdown makes oil go from clear and clean, to darker colour, then brown and finally black. Some of the damper oil we recover looks like it came out of a farm tractor engine:


__
http://instagr.am/p/BaaRtwZFMIx/

For dirt and dust to get past seals, you can see it trapped in the seal and packed between both lips. By the time that is happening, the seal is also bypassing oil the other way.

My riding is also dry and dusty.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Whilst I don't doubt what you say....

....and in most cases I would agree, as after riding since the late 60's I've never seen this but...

...when you can see the sediment settle out. I was curious as I have never seen fluid come out that colour.
I'm pretty anal about fork service; nerve damage in the hand etc, so if I want to ride, it must be supple, supple, supple. When the foam rings come out feeling like they are loaded with honing paste I decided to leave them out and run a grease pack instead.
Figured that a fresh set of the green skf would fix the problem. Nope.
( 2013 888 RC3 EVO Ti chassis )

Last time I played with the shimstack, you could feel it on the shims almost like a honing paste residue.

Hell maybe somehow the stanchions are undersized but with no bushing slop?? I have no idea but this thing is a talcum powder dust sieve.

I just stay on top of fork service and ride it, although Redline suspension fluid gets expensive after a bit...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ghostbiker said:


> hm, most suspension experts say that mud isn´t the worst for the fork wipers, but moon dust is. That thing will make it through any seal given enough time.


If you've ever worked on an old marzocchi, you know that the oil always came out smelling skank as a nasty sludge with all sorts of metal particulates in it. Every. Single. Time. I don't know what they made the damping carts out of, but it was terrible.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

mykel said:


> Whilst I don't doubt what you say....
> 
> ....and in most cases I would agree, as after riding since the late 60's I've never seen this but...
> 
> ...


In my experience once a fork gets in to that state it is a nightmare to remove every last trace of it or else it will turn the oil black again instantly! These days I have multiple stages of cleaning to make sure all residue like that is gone


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

mykel said:


> When the foam rings come out feeling like they are loaded with honing paste I decided to leave them out and run a grease pack instead.
> 
> Last time I played with the shimstack, you could feel it on the shims almost like a honing paste residue.
> 
> Hell maybe somehow the stanchions are undersized but with no bushing slop?? I have no idea but this thing is a talcum powder dust sieve.


It could be your grease. Grease has solids in it that eventually will dissolve into the oil.
If you put a lot of grease in there, probably made its way into the oil and what you're getting are the dissolved solids of the grease.

That was another reason for sludge in forks of yore... you'd grease the coil spring to avoid noise/rubbing against the stanchion and you'd get a sludge as it would mix with the oil in the lowers.


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

Warp said:


> It could be your grease. Grease has solids in it that eventually will dissolve into the oil.
> If you put a lot of grease in there, probably made its way into the oil and what you're getting are the dissolved solids of the grease.
> 
> That was another reason for sludge in forks of yore... you'd grease the coil spring to avoid noise/rubbing against the stanchion and you'd get a sludge as it would mix with the oil in the lowers.


I don´t think solid lubricants in grease could be felt by hand though, it they were large enough you would be able to feel them even when applying it and I´m sure you wouldn´t want to use such a product.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

ghostbiker said:


> I don´t think solid lubricants in grease could be felt by hand though, it they were large enough you would be able to feel them even when applying it and I´m sure you wouldn´t want to use such a product.


The residue would be the thickening agents on the grease, not lubricants.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

Warp said:


> The residue would be the thickening agents on the grease, not lubricants.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Have you seen this happen before? And maybe more importantly are you sure it wasn´t just contaminants? Seems pretty scary if grease over time will form something that could cause wear to part it´s suppose to protect from wear in the first place.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

ghostbiker said:


> Have you seen this happen before? And maybe more importantly are you sure it wasn´t just contaminants? Seems pretty scary if grease over time will form something that could cause wear to part it´s suppose to protect from wear in the first place.


I've seen the paste like residue forming on wipers, particularly on open bath forks where I used grease for the wipers. Yes, it can look like contaminants but that was not the case.
Grease is a lubricant with soap like thickeners in the end.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mykel said:


> Whilst I don't doubt what you say....
> 
> ....and in most cases I would agree, as after riding since the late 60's I've never seen this but...
> 
> ...


Mostly likely just marzocchi sludge. Those forks made a lot of debris internally.

I see two main types of sediment. Wear metals and grease/oil sludge.
This one (right) is water in oil:

__
http://instagr.am/p/Bc8dfAUFdx-/
This one is intentionally mixed new Supergliss and fork oils:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BXyyfEHFz87/
This one I think was mostly wear particles:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BHlERcajstE/


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

@Dougal

Most like the bottom one, sediment on the bottom the next day. 
Grey-beige in colour. Like I said felt like honing paste.

A service after a trip to Snowshoe which has a totally different composition showed the fluid to be nowhere near as cloudy, with about 1/4 the sediment. Still mankier than any other fork, including a 66 Evo Ti I had of the same vintage. The 66 which is pretty much the same thing internally never seemed to have the manky fluid, that is a special feature of the 888. It has done this since new, and there was no change when I put the Andreani piston in as well as a couple of shimstack revisions.

I am seriously considering an Avy cartridge for this fork. Will be very interested to see how the fluids look after a service.

So, at the moment, I just open it up several times a season and keep riding.


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## useport80 (Mar 6, 2008)

i have a push acs3 in my fox36 now, im curious to see how this new vorsprung product performs


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

useport80 said:


> i have a push acs3 in my fox36 now, im curious to see how this new vorsprung product performs


The Push ACS3 is a nice bit of kit for sure, and fundamentally the two systems are quite similar insofar as being a coil spring with an adjustable anti-bottoming system.

For the first 2/3(ish) of the travel you won't notice any difference in performance (if running the same spring rate) - a coil is a coil there. The anti-bottoming systems are different - we opted for an externally-adjustable hydraulic system as compared to the ACS3's pneumatic system because it requires no moving seals, no shock pump, and doesn't require components to physically collide mid travel, so we can taper its effect in quite gently. Because it acts as an energy dissipator (like a damper) rather than a secondary spring, the behaviour is a bit different deep in the stroke, with lower spring forces to minimise kickback in particularly holey terrain. (That sounded like some kind of religious euphemism, not intentional!). Basically it gently slows you down in a controlled manner, and doesn't throw a sudden buildup of energy back at you. Because its response is dependent on the energy input, when properly adjusted it lets you use nearly all the travel nearly all the time on big compressions - lower energy (lower velocity) compressions are allowed to use plenty of travel for comfort, but higher energy ones generate the support required.

On attributes that aren't strictly performance related, the Smashpot is also travel adjustable within the range permissible on your fork (max of 180mm, min of 130mm) without having to purchase any new parts, and can be swapped between forks by swapping out only the top cap (and foot stud if moving between brands). As far as I am aware this is unique for such coil conversion kits - you can pull this kit out of a 140mm 27.5 Pike and throw it in a 160mm Lyrik for just the cost of a new top cap (and possibly a spring if you wanted a different spring rate for the different travel fork). We try to design this kind of thing to give people maximum utility for their money in addition to the performance benefits.


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## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

Sounds absolutely fantastic Steve!


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## fizzywater (Oct 1, 2005)

Have to say this product sounds extremely compelling. I am pretty much sold and ready to pull the trigger once it gets released to breathe some new life and coilness into my Pike. My best performing fork is still my old Vengeance coil HLR. Granted, it's a bit heavy, but runs circles around my 2018 Pike in terms of performance and adjustability. Come on Smashpot...hurry up!


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Steve VS said:


> The Push ACS3 is a nice bit of kit for sure, and fundamentally the two systems are quite similar insofar as being a coil spring with an adjustable anti-bottoming system.
> 
> For the first 2/3(ish) of the travel you won't notice any difference in performance (if running the same spring rate) - a coil is a coil there. The anti-bottoming systems are different - we opted for an externally-adjustable hydraulic system as compared to the ACS3's pneumatic system because it requires no moving seals, no shock pump, and doesn't require components to physically collide mid travel, so we can taper its effect in quite gently. Because it acts as an energy dissipator (like a damper) rather than a secondary spring, the behaviour is a bit different deep in the stroke, with lower spring forces to minimise kickback in particularly holey terrain. (That sounded like some kind of religious euphemism, not intentional!). Basically it gently slows you down in a controlled manner, and doesn't throw a sudden buildup of energy back at you. Because its response is dependent on the energy input, when properly adjusted it lets you use nearly all the travel nearly all the time on big compressions - lower energy (lower velocity) compressions are allowed to use plenty of travel for comfort, but higher energy ones generate the support required.
> 
> On attributes that aren't strictly performance related, the Smashpot is also travel adjustable within the range permissible on your fork (max of 180mm, min of 130mm) without having to purchase any new parts, and can be swapped between forks by swapping out only the top cap (and foot stud if moving between brands). As far as I am aware this is unique for such coil conversion kits - you can pull this kit out of a 140mm 27.5 Pike and throw it in a 160mm Lyrik for just the cost of a new top cap (and possibly a spring if you wanted a different spring rate for the different travel fork). We try to design this kind of thing to give people maximum utility for their money in addition to the performance benefits.


Great!!

Another vote for a 34 spring!


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

so.....would this potentially allow a '19 fox 36 to be a 130mm travel coil? it seems the travel available these days starts at 150mm stock...


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

dRjOn said:


> so.....would this potentially allow a '19 fox 36 to be a 130mm travel coil? it seems the travel available these days starts at 150mm stock...


It will be determined by the damper limits.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Heiril (Nov 2, 2015)

Steve VS said:


> The Push ACS3 is a nice bit of kit for sure, and fundamentally the two systems are quite similar insofar as being a coil spring with an adjustable anti-bottoming system.
> 
> For the first 2/3(ish) of the travel you won't notice any difference in performance (if running the same spring rate) - a coil is a coil there. The anti-bottoming systems are different - we opted for an externally-adjustable hydraulic system as compared to the ACS3's pneumatic system because it requires no moving seals, no shock pump, and doesn't require components to physically collide mid travel, so we can taper its effect in quite gently. Because it acts as an energy dissipator (like a damper) rather than a secondary spring, the behaviour is a bit different deep in the stroke, with lower spring forces to minimise kickback in particularly holey terrain. (That sounded like some kind of religious euphemism, not intentional!). Basically it gently slows you down in a controlled manner, and doesn't throw a sudden buildup of energy back at you. Because its response is dependent on the energy input, when properly adjusted it lets you use nearly all the travel nearly all the time on big compressions - lower energy (lower velocity) compressions are allowed to use plenty of travel for comfort, but higher energy ones generate the support required.
> 
> On attributes that aren't strictly performance related, the Smashpot is also travel adjustable within the range permissible on your fork (max of 180mm, min of 130mm) without having to purchase any new parts, and can be swapped between forks by swapping out only the top cap (and foot stud if moving between brands). As far as I am aware this is unique for such coil conversion kits - you can pull this kit out of a 140mm 27.5 Pike and throw it in a 160mm Lyrik for just the cost of a new top cap (and possibly a spring if you wanted a different spring rate for the different travel fork). We try to design this kind of thing to give people maximum utility for their money in addition to the performance benefits.


There should be a like button on Tapatalk for brilliant posts from Steve.

Super like!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

Heiril said:


> There should be a like button on Tapatalk for brilliant posts from Steve.
> 
> Super like!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Agreed. 
Can't wait for the smashpot.... itching to get one into my 36.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## useport80 (Mar 6, 2008)

ty for the detailed reply steve.

do you know if the smashpot can be installed in the same fork that previously had the push acs3 kit? i'd like to replace the acs3 with the smashpot if possible.


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## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

Oi Steve, when are you gonna drop a Vorsprung damper? Seems only fitting in my eyes


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Warp said:


> Great!!
> 
> Another vote for a 34 spring!


We'd love to make them for the 34 (and the Mattoc) but as it currently stands that isn't plausible as the stanchion ID is small enough that springs would need to become really heavy to fit them. If demand becomes sufficient we'll look at our options however.



dRjOn said:


> so.....would this potentially allow a '19 fox 36 to be a 130mm travel coil? it seems the travel available these days starts at 150mm stock...





JTmofo said:


> It will be determined by the damper limits.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


JTmofo is basically correct. You can run it at any travel from 130mm up to whatever upper limit is set by your damper and/or fork chassis. If you have a Fox 36 and it's currently running at anything less than 180mm, call Fox's tech support with your 4-digit custom tune ID and/or serial number and they'll be able to tell you what your max travel is and whether the limitation is the damper (they'll be able to tell you what part needs replacing to increase max travel on that if so) or the chassis.



useport80 said:


> ty for the detailed reply steve.
> 
> do you know if the smashpot can be installed in the same fork that previously had the push acs3 kit? i'd like to replace the acs3 with the smashpot if possible.


Yep, it will be able to fit a fork that's previously had an ACS3 in it.



bigcrs said:


> Oi Steve, when are you gonna drop a Vorsprung damper? Seems only fitting in my eyes


That'd be cool, but won't be any time soon.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Steve VS said:


> For the first 2/3(ish) of the travel you won't notice any difference in performance (if running the same spring rate) - a coil is a coil there. The anti-bottoming systems are different - we opted for an externally-adjustable hydraulic system as compared to the ACS3's pneumatic system because it requires no moving seals, no shock pump, and doesn't require components to physically collide mid travel


I can say without a doubt that the hydraulic anti-bottoming cone on my Avy cart has saved my a$$ more than once. I distinctly remember jumping a certain fairly large table top bigger and bigger and taking faster run-ins (from a road above instead of the trail) and then one way I way overshot the landing and landed only on the front wheel pitched forward. In most any other case, I would have banged the bottom and probably had a massive endo, but softly stopping at the end of travel in this situation is amazing, without having to use any crazy internal (air) pressure or seals. A hydraulic setup is the simplest IMO and extremely effective.


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## kamper11 (Feb 8, 2008)

Steve - will this be new Zoke Bomber z1 compatible as its basically Fox but with some unique fittings (air spring top cap) etc??

Thanks


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

kamper11 said:


> Steve - will this be new Zoke Bomber z1 compatible as its basically Fox but with some unique fittings (air spring top cap) etc??
> 
> Thanks


It will be Z1 compatible yes - that config may not be ready at launch as we are yet to check fitment but at worst it will be another top cap for us to make.


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## kamper11 (Feb 8, 2008)

Put me on that list ! I've ridden some other Coil forks/kits and think this would be killer in my current Z1


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## arne_and (Dec 5, 2006)

Steve VS said:


> We'd love to make them for the 34 (and the Mattoc) but as it currently stands that isn't plausible as the stanchion ID is small enough that springs would need to become really heavy to fit them. If demand becomes sufficient we'll look at our options however.


Another vote for a 34 spring, but "really heavy" does not sound good.


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## evildos (Aug 17, 2015)

I'm really interested in this kit and I'm looking forward to purchasing it when it's available for my fox 36.

However, I'm afraid that shipping from Canada to France + taxes make it too expensive for me.

Do you know if there are dealers for Vorsprung products in Europe (enventually in France).

Best wishes for 2019, lads !


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

evildos said:


> Do you know if there are dealers for Vorsprung products in Europe (enventually in France).
> 
> Best wishes for 2019, lads !


Here's a list of some of Vorsprung partners:

https://www.vorsprungsuspension.com/pages/elite-partner-tuning-centres


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

What will the estimated price be?


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

Cerberus75 said:


> What will the estimated price be?


Bike Rumour article states circa $300USD


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

So, here is a question from a suspension noob. 

I have the Grip2 36, feels amazing. One thing I was wondering is, the small bump/breakaway force/whatever you call it is really good, I'm guessing due to the negative air spring. I assume installing a coil conversion will remove this negative air spring, if so, how will the coil conversion have less breakaway force? I know there are less seals/friction in the coil conversion, but feeling my fork as it is now, I can't see how it could really get much better. 
I had a MRP Ribbon Coil before the 36, and whilst I can't directly compare them as I sold the Ribbon, I dont remember the Ribbon being easier to get the fork moving. 

So I spose my question is, will the Smashpot Conversion have less breakaway force then the current 36 running the standard air spring? 

Thanks,
Ben from Australia


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

B Rabbit said:


> So, here is a question from a suspension noob.
> 
> I have the Grip2 36, feels amazing. One thing I was wondering is, the small bump/breakaway force/whatever you call it is really good, I'm guessing due to the negative air spring. I assume installing a coil conversion will remove this negative air spring, if so, how will the coil conversion have less breakaway force? I know there are less seals/friction in the coil conversion, but feeling my fork as it is now, I can't see how it could really get much better.
> I had a MRP Ribbon Coil before the 36, and whilst I can't directly compare them as I sold the Ribbon, I dont remember the Ribbon being easier to get the fork moving.
> ...


With a coil there isn't any breakaway/air spring stiction. A air fork can feel good for a bit. But soon the grease gets worn or moved, or the temperatures drop and stiction increases. Coils stay consistent.


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

But there is still stiction caused from the dust wipers yeah? It feels like they've got the 36 negative air spring to the point that leaves little to be desired/improved on in terms of breakaway force. Of course, as you rightly pointed out, temperature and consistent feel between service intervals might be a different story.
Anyway, super keen to give it a go


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

B Rabbit said:


> But there is still stiction caused from the dust wipers yeah? It feels like they've got the 36 negative air spring to the point that leaves little to be desired/improved on in terms of breakaway force. Of course, as you rightly pointed out, temperature and consistent feel between service intervals might be a different story.
> Anyway, super keen to give it a go


Fair point. But a dust seal and wiper don't need to be air tight. Even with a negative air spring (which is there primarily for off the top stiction), there is still going to be degree of friction between the air spring seal head and the inner of the stanchion to keep it air tight.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Cerberus75 said:


> With a coil there isn't any breakaway/air spring stiction. A air fork can feel good for a bit. But soon the grease gets worn or moved, or the temperatures drop and stiction increases. Coils stay consistent.


unless of course you have an Avalanche cartridge, but then you already know that


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

B Rabbit said:


> how will the coil conversion have less breakaway force? I know there are less seals/friction in the coil conversion, but feeling my fork as it is now, I can't see how it could really get much better.


I can see why you'd have this impression. I had my suspension serviced before the season started last year (lowers and oil on the fork, air sleeve on the shock) and it came back so nice I thought it was as good as my bike that has coil springs front and rear.

Until I got back on the coil bike, at which point I realized how wrong I was.

We get used to our suspension over time and don't realize it.



B Rabbit said:


> will the Smashpot Conversion have less breakaway force then the current 36 running the standard air spring?


Yes, it will.



nhodge said:


> unless of course you have an Avalanche cartridge


The Avalanche cartridge is on the damper side and not the spring. Hence why they note (scroll down in that link) that it's compatible with both the Smashpot and the PUSH ACS-3.

Unless, maybe, you're talking about their dual coil conversion kit which is also featured on that page.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

nhodge said:


> unless of course you have an Avalanche cartridge, but then you already know that


I love my Avy cartridge. I put in the Push coil and its one of the best forks Ive ridden. But if the Smashpot Is around 300 ill probably get it. Since its 300 hundred to change travel and i prefer the lack of rebound from hydraulic bottom out.

When it was set up with air it was great for a month, then declined. But it was never coil great


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

Vorsprung, I'm ready to give you my money. I'll take one 180mm kit for my Fox 36.


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## KenPsz (Jan 21, 2007)

Interesting to see coil's making a come back like this. What is old is new again.

Like already mentioned a tuned Bomber was the shnizzle! Tune the oil and the spring weight and talk about 120mm of goodness!


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

B Rabbit said:


> But there is still stiction caused from the dust wipers yeah? It feels like they've got the 36 negative air spring to the point that leaves little to be desired/improved on in terms of breakaway force. Of course, as you rightly pointed out, temperature and consistent feel between service intervals might be a different story.
> Anyway, super keen to give it a go


All forks have friction from the dust wipers, you are correct, and damper seals too (unless you have an open bath damper). Coil springs eliminate two sliding seals though (out of 5-6 in most forks - two dust wipers, two air spring seals and one damper shaft seal) which just means one less thing to get sticky over time. Brand new or freshly serviced, you're right, the difference in stiction between an air and a coil fork is pretty minimal, but coils stay feeling that way longer, plus have lower initial and higher mid stroke spring rates. There are obviously tradeoffs in terms of weight, adjustability, potential for noise (since there needs to be clearance between a coil and anything it's moving relative to) and in the case of aftermarket kits like this also cost, but if outright performance and reduced maintenance are your goals then coil with bottoming protection is currently the best option.


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

Thanks the reply  
Makes sense, just feeling my (admittedly) box fresh Grip2 36 I was curious how a coil could possibly get any more supple doing the old push on the bars test. I had run a Ribbon coil before and I don’t remember it being night and day different.

No doubt with unforeseen delays it’s hard to give an ETA, but.......have you got an ETA? Haha

Ben from Australia


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

B Rabbit said:


> No doubt with unforeseen delays it's hard to give an ETA, but.......have you got an ETA? Haha
> 
> Ben from Australia


This ^^^

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Dr.Flow (Jul 6, 2011)

B Rabbit said:


> Thanks the reply
> Makes sense, just feeling my (admittedly) box fresh Grip2 36 I was curious how a coil could possibly get any more supple doing the old push on the bars test. I had run a Ribbon coil before and I don't remember it being night and day different.


Let your Bike stand still for 24h and then try to push down on the bars. The first push will be very sticky. After one cycle it gets better, but the very first one is always needing a lot of force to get the fork moving. I have a brand new '19 36 Float GRIP2 and an '11 36 Vanilla with '15 RC2 cart. The Van never does this.
Also as Steve pointed out the performance of the air spring deteriorates pretty fast. If you ride a lot and in wet or very dusty conditions it's noticeable between two rides.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

B Rabbit said:


> No doubt with unforeseen delays it's hard to give an ETA, but.......have you got an ETA? Haha
> 
> Ben from Australia


We do have an ETA. We'll share it on the day they're ready to go


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

Steve VS said:


> We do have an ETA. We'll share it on the day they're ready to go


Will it be soon 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

JTmofo said:


> Will it be soon
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


The more time I spend answering questions about ETA the longer it takes us to finish assembling and checking them


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

Steve VS said:


> The more time I spend answering questions about ETA the longer it takes us to finish assembling and checking them


A simple "Yes" would have kept me happy 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

JTmofo said:


> A simple "Yes" would have kept me happy
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


Honest answer - we're waiting on springs to arrive from our supplier. Once they do, they need checking - if they're good, we're good. If there's some issue, there may be a further delay. So I can't promise you anything - could be soon, could be a month or more.


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## Stefan0103 (Apr 12, 2016)

Is there an estimated date when the Smashpot could be ordered?


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

Stefan0103 said:


> Is there an estimated date when the Smashpot could be ordered?


Not sure if serious?


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## Stefan0103 (Apr 12, 2016)

Ups, I scrolled to quick up ... . Sounds good.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Stefan0103 said:


> Is there an estimated date when the Smashpot could be ordered?


Yep. Today 

https://vorsprungsuspension.com/col...orsprung-smashpot-fork-coil-conversion-system


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

Steve VS said:


> Yep. Today
> 
> https://vorsprungsuspension.com/col...orsprung-smashpot-fork-coil-conversion-system


I'm ordering now!!!!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

Ordered!!! I've been checking the website daily for updates!!!! 

Super stoked to try this out! 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## noot (Jul 7, 2008)

Ordered for my '15 Pike!


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Steve

What will the price and availability be for individual springs?


----------



## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

mykel said:


> Steve
> 
> What will the price and availability be for individual springs?


https://vorsprung-suspension.myshopify.com/collections/all/products/smashpot-springs


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

How the F did I miss those. :incazzato: I thought I crawled around the entire site. 

Cheers!! :thumbsup:


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

ordered! Can’t wait to get this installed


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Steve, nice job! Presumably this will play nice with 29 150 rhythm fork?
Ta


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## bike_futurist (Nov 12, 2018)

this seems great! Steve could you explain what aspect does the adjustment in the bottom out cartridge adjust? It wasnt visible in the pinkbike pics


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## Stefan0103 (Apr 12, 2016)

I'm looking for a coil conversion for my Lyrik 29er with 180mm travel.

*I read this in your FAQ section:*

Typical fork maximum permissible travels:

Rockshox:
Lyrik/Yari 27.5" - 180mm
*Lyrik/Yari 29" - 170mm*
Pike/Revelation 27.5/29" - 160mm

*And this in the description for smashpot:*


130-180mm travel, internally adjustable using included spacers. (Note - max permissible travel for your fork *is determined by the fork manufacturer* and may be less than 180mm)

Is this a typo? At least RS allows and sells a 180mm 29er Lyrik.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

420.69 for the conversion, and not a penny more!

LoL, nice work Vorsprung.


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

bike_futurist said:


> this seems great! Steve could you explain what aspect does the adjustment in the bottom out cartridge adjust? It wasnt visible in the pinkbike pics


It´s hydraulic bottom out control.


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## Shredur (Apr 10, 2017)

I’m assuming that you would want to upgrade the damper on the Yari fork before adding the smashpot right?


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## alan1 (Mar 22, 2007)

Steve, how do I get a hold of one of these in the UK?


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## inaxganja (Aug 8, 2016)

Hi Steve:

I´m excited about your new product, the Smashpot. I´ve tried the Luftkape in the past in a RS pike and it´s awesome.

Now my question: I have a Cane Creek HELM air 27,5 at 170mm. I love this fork but i think it could be even better and maybe Smashpot is the answer. I´m wondering about the compatibility of this fork with your new kit... the top cap thread is the same of the RS Pike non boost (2015) and the stanchion is the same at 35mm, so why not... At least worth to ask if it may be possible, or perhaps you are working on it... and when to spect to be available.

Thanks in advance


----------



## bigcrs (Oct 27, 2008)

The Smashpot looks great, so does the price! Very nice Vorsprung. 

You guys gonna make it MRP Ribbon compatible?


----------



## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

inaxganja said:


> I have a Cane Creek HELM


Steve addressed that on the first page with this reply:



Steve VS said:


> Possible - again dependent on demand.


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## bike_futurist (Nov 12, 2018)

ghostbiker said:


> It´s hydraulic bottom out control.


I think it had some kind of adjustment range and I was asking what does it adjust. Gate? Compression?


----------



## evildos (Aug 17, 2015)

Congrats, Vorsprung !

Good luck to answer all the questions 

Hope you guys will make an installation video.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

alan1 said:


> Steve, how do I get a hold of one of these in the UK?


tf tuned £250:thumbsup:


----------



## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

bike_futurist said:


> I think it had some kind of adjustment range and I was asking what does it adjust. Gate? Compression?


On their website they describe it as an externally-adjustable, speed-sensitive, anti-bottoming hydraulic control valve that covers the last 50mm of travel.

Right off the bat, note that this would be on the spring side, independent of the damper side. So you can adjust the anti-bottoming independently of HSC/LSC and HSR/LSR.

So, it's kind of an extra compression-only dampener, that does not affect rebound damping, in the last 50mm of travel only.

Until Steve does a detailed Tuesday Tune where he shows the inner workings of that valve (which I'm guessing looks something like a spring-washer and shim stack kind of thing, can't quite make it out in the photos on the first page but there's something in the white part of the setup underneath the coil), you might have to look up the MX-Tech Huck Valve on the moto side to see how they approached it.


----------



## alan1 (Mar 22, 2007)

louf said:


> tf tuned £250:thumbsup:


Any idea when they are getting them?
.


----------



## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

alan1 said:


> Any idea when they are getting them?
> .


few weeks


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## alan1 (Mar 22, 2007)

louf said:


> few weeks


Cheers.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Stefan0103 said:


> I'm looking for a coil conversion for my Lyrik 29er with 180mm travel.
> 
> *I read this in your FAQ section:*
> 
> ...


You are correct, the Lyrik can be run at 180mm. Have updated the site to reflect that.



Shredur said:


> I'm assuming that you would want to upgrade the damper on the Yari fork before adding the smashpot right?


You'll notice a bigger change from the spring than the damper on that fork for sure.



inaxganja said:


> Hi Steve:
> 
> I´m excited about your new product, the Smashpot. I´ve tried the Luftkape in the past in a RS pike and it´s awesome.
> 
> ...


We'll look at making Helm kits if the demand is there, however as it currently stands none of the kits will simply drop right in there right now.



bigcrs said:


> The Smashpot looks great, so does the price! Very nice Vorsprung.
> 
> You guys gonna make it MRP Ribbon compatible?


If the demand is there we'll look at it for sure - let us know if you're keen on one.



bike_futurist said:


> I think it had some kind of adjustment range and I was asking what does it adjust. Gate? Compression?


Adjusts an orifice in parallel to a shim stack.



tbmaddux said:


> On their website they describe it as an externally-adjustable, speed-sensitive, anti-bottoming hydraulic control valve that covers the last 50mm of travel.
> 
> Right off the bat, note that this would be on the spring side, independent of the damper side. So you can adjust the anti-bottoming independently of HSC/LSC and HSR/LSR.
> 
> ...


10/10. Need a job? 



alan1 said:


> Any idea when they are getting them?
> .


They're en route as we speak.


----------



## useport80 (Mar 6, 2008)

im curious to see a head to head comparison with the push acs3 kit. and also interested in how to install the smashpot


----------



## jcmonty (Apr 11, 2015)

This looks awesome! Glad it gets the full 180mm unlike some of the other conversions out there (I am running a 180mm Lyrik).

Quick question that I didn't see on the description - on your recommend spring rate vs. weight matrices, is there an equivalent sag range that your recommendations correspond to? I.e. 176lb, 180mm travel, "Medium" ~ 22% sag? Trying to understand apples to apples based on current sag % with the air spring in my fork.

Second question - Will springs be available for purchase and at what $?

Great job guys.. looking forward to trying it out!


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## Dr.Flow (Jul 6, 2011)

22% of 180 mm equals 39.6 mm/1.56 in.
Now comes the non scientific part, estimating the weight distribution between front and rear. Let's say it's 40/60. 40% of your 176 lb results in 70 lb.
70 lb / 1.56 in = 45 lb/in.

If you happen to have access to two body scales you could find out your static weight distribution.


Adjust as you think.


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

What bath oil is used for the Fox 36? Surely the Fox 40 gold is too thick.


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## Dr.Flow (Jul 6, 2011)

Tree said:


> What bath oil is used for the Fox 36? Surely the Fox 40 gold is too thick.


40cc 5wt. FOX Teflon Infused Oil 025-03-023 in the right damper leg
10cc FOX 20wt. Gold Oil in the left spring leg

Can be found here under Oil Information.


----------



## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

Thanks for the info Dr.Flow but my understanding is that the Smashpot works with a hydraulic bottom out (using the bath oil) and I'm wondering if the Fox 20wt gold is to thick for this application.
My specific 36 is model year 2018 RC2


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## endorium (Jan 31, 2019)

so, I have a 2018 rockshox revelation (35mm). I am ordering a smashpot with 65lb spring. 
Damper in these forks is terrible. Thinking of at the same time upgrade to a crconception open bath damper as well.

Anyone see an issue with this pairing? Should make some pretty epic forks


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## Dr.Flow (Jul 6, 2011)

Now I got ya. Sorry, we will have to wait for Steve. I need that information as well, my Smashpot is on route.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

You can find all the installation instructions on the Vorsprung website, including oil weights and volumes:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...n_Instructions_Rev_A.pdf?10181817412224944409


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dr.Flow said:


> 22% of 180 mm equals 39.6 mm/1.56 in.
> Now comes the non scientific part, estimating the weight distribution between front and rear. Let's say it's 40/60. 40% of your 176 lb results in 70 lb.
> 70 lb / 1.56 in = 45 lb/in.
> 
> ...


Don't forget head angle. Forks work at a motion ratio greater than 1.


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## Dr.Flow (Jul 6, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Don't forget head angle. Forks work at a motion ratio greater than 1.


Now it gets complicated. And that's why there is a recommendation spreadsheet ;-)


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## Dr.Flow (Jul 6, 2011)

Rick Draper said:


> You can find all the installation instructions on the Vorsprung website, including oil weights and volumes:
> 
> https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...n_Instructions_Rev_A.pdf?10181817412224944409


Nice, thx. Missed that one.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

jcmonty said:


> This looks awesome! Glad it gets the full 180mm unlike some of the other conversions out there (I am running a 180mm Lyrik).
> 
> Quick question that I didn't see on the description - on your recommend spring rate vs. weight matrices, is there an equivalent sag range that your recommendations correspond to? I.e. 176lb, 180mm travel, "Medium" ~ 22% sag? Trying to understand apples to apples based on current sag % with the air spring in my fork.
> 
> ...


Firm/medium/soft recommendations work out at about 17%, 19% and 21% respectively. Don't put too much stock in fork sag though (and especially not if comparing air to coil), it's hard to measure consistently at the best of times.

Springs are $80CAD (roughly $60USD), available here - https://vorsprungsuspension.com/collections/all/products/smashpot-springs


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## endorium (Jan 31, 2019)

Anyone? I want to ensure this is ok before ordering both. I suspect damper and smashpot will work as they also make a coil conversion bit much prefer the smashpot


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

endorium said:


> Anyone? I want to ensure this is ok before ordering both. I suspect damper and smashpot will work as they also make a coil conversion bit much prefer the smashpot


Smashpot was only released a couple of days ago. I doubt the first shipment has even reached the end user. 
Chances of anyone having installed it yet is minimal.

That said, I can see any issues if Vorsprung lists the revelation as a compatible fork.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## endorium (Jan 31, 2019)

It's more of it would be fine with an open bath damper I am also upgrading too. The crconception one but it's near identical to the avalanche open damper


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

endorium said:


> It's more of it would be fine with an open bath damper I am also upgrading too. The crconception one but it's near identical to the avalanche open damper


Different fork leg. Totally independent. Can't see why not.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

Sending out my 150mm FOX36 Elite FIT4 to Vorsrpung today for the Fractive tune, re-valve and Smashpot install. Im stoked to finally have a clyde built / tuned fork for my SC Hightower. Let the waiting begin.


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## Tomor (Oct 19, 2017)

What is the process for switching out the spacers and changing travel? Is it simply just pulling out the spring and changing the spacers and putting it back in? Or is it more involved and requiring replacing oil etc?


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

Tomor said:


> What is the process for switching out the spacers and changing travel? Is it simply just pulling out the spring and changing the spacers and putting it back in? Or is it more involved and requiring replacing oil etc?


The spacers make up an integral part of the assembly. The complete assembly will have to be removed and partially disassembled to change the travel spacers. 
For the sake of 110ml of fresh oil, I'd be changing it while I'm at it.

It would be harder to try and keep the existing oil in the fork leg with no foot nut than drain and replace.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Steve VS said:


> Firm/medium/soft recommendations work out at about 17%, 19% and 21% respectively. Don't put too much stock in fork sag though (and especially not if comparing air to coil), it's hard to measure consistently at the best of times.
> 
> Springs are $80CAD (roughly $60USD), available here - https://vorsprungsuspension.com/collections/all/products/smashpot-springs


so 21,19,17% means quicker end of the race results kinda guys rather than the mid pack weekend warriors? 
I ask as im 80 kg looking to fit your spring to a 150 stumpy evo that I might push out to get 160 and I kind like the middle ground setting so either 50 or a 55?

also is marine grease usable as a replacement for slick honey?

ta


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## karpiel (Aug 27, 2010)

Stevo, would you reccomend WPL oils for you smashpot ?


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

louf said:


> so 21,19,17% means quicker end of the race results kinda guys rather than the mid pack weekend warriors?
> I ask as im 80 kg looking to fit your spring to a 150 stumpy evo that I might push out to get 160 and I kind like the middle ground setting so either 50 or a 55?
> 
> also is marine grease usable as a replacement for slick honey?
> ...


It depends on the way you measure sag so hard to say, but if measured in "attack" position it´s on the more aggressive side of things for sure, I prefer something closer to 25%, below 20 is usually very harsh for me. And marine grease is very thick compared to something suspension specific so it will slow thing down, also most manufacturers don´t mention if it´s rubber safe so it´s probably not.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Yeah I measures mine in attack position too, less than 25% gets dog rough too..


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

louf said:


> Yeah I measures mine in attack position too, less than 25% gets dog rough too..


It depends on bike too as Steve mentioned elsewhere, slacker the head angle-less accurate reading you get so it´s not an ideal way of choosing spring rate.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

ghostbiker said:


> It depends on bike too as Steve mentioned elsewhere, slacker the head angle-less accurate reading you get so it´s not an ideal way of choosing spring rate.


Yup. But is a handy starting point. Don't actually know what my sag is to tell the truth.. By it is 90 psi.


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

louf said:


> Yup. But is a handy starting point. Don't actually know what my sag is to tell the truth.. By it is 90 psi.


Which means absolutely nothing to anyone but you, with your set up and on your bike.

Body weight, riding style, frame Geo, fork type, damper valveing, air volume etc etc all contribute to personal air pressures and sag preferences.

Chances are, 1 spring will not be enough to get it dialled to your own sag preference. The chart is a rough guide and a good starting point.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

endorium said:


> It's more of it would be fine with an open bath damper I am also upgrading too. The crconception one but it's near identical to the avalanche open damper


Yep, it'll be fine with any damper really, open bath or closed cart - sorry I missed that before.



Tomor said:


> What is the process for switching out the spacers and changing travel? Is it simply just pulling out the spring and changing the spacers and putting it back in? Or is it more involved and requiring replacing oil etc?


You'll need to pull the cartridge out entirely and partly disassemble - add/subtract main spring spacers and respectively subtract/add topout spacers. You'll also want to reapply the heat shrink on the cartridge tube when you do it because you'll need to cut it to remove the sealhead - we sell spare lengths of the heat shrink on the web store for anyone who wants to throw it in with their order, but for anyone curious or wanting to buy from their local auto/electrical supplier (eg Lordco) it's 3/4" 2:1 singlewall polyolefin heat shrink.



karpiel said:


> Stevo, would you reccomend WPL oils for you smashpot ?


If you have it available yes. We've used WPL ShockBoost 20wt, Fox 20wt Gold and Rockshox 0W30 with success in there. For cold weather riding you might want to substitute for a 10wt like ShockBoost or Fox 10wt Green. Partly because of the damping aspect, partly because the thicker oils get pretty damn thick when it's cold.



louf said:


> so 21,19,17% means quicker end of the race results kinda guys rather than the mid pack weekend warriors?
> I ask as im 80 kg looking to fit your spring to a 150 stumpy evo that I might push out to get 160 and I kind like the middle ground setting so either 50 or a 55?
> 
> also is marine grease usable as a replacement for slick honey?
> ...


Spring rate preference is a personal thing and not necessarily entirely determined by how good or fast a rider you are. If you want your fork to feel stiffer because you want the support (which does often correlate with riding harder) then by all means go for the stiffer rate. In reality most people will be able to ride 2 or 3 different spring rates quite happily, and while we try to provide the best possible advice on what's most likely to work for you, ultimately only your own experience on the trail will tell you what you like the most.

Don't use marine grease anywhere inside suspension components please - Slick Honey/Slickoleum/SRAM Butter are all basically the same thing, so use any of those instead.


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## Dagonger (Dec 8, 2011)

Fyi Fullflow Suspension, Auburn ,CA should have kits available on Wed. Give Michael a call. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

Steve, what would your personal choice be for oil?


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Got it


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## Frosty2019 (Jan 27, 2019)

Steve, cheeky I know but are you handing
out any discount codes for the first orders?


----------



## noot (Jul 7, 2008)

Not sure I'd use the word 'cheeky'. These guys work hard to test and deliver great products with availability out of the gate, cheaper than the competition, while going out of their way to answer our questions on this forum. And you ask for a discount? Give your head a shake


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

doesn't fit 26 pikes


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## dickrich (Jan 31, 2019)

Is the new Smashpot compatible with the Fox/Marzocchi Bomber Z1? Thanks


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## k-addicted (Aug 1, 2011)

I just bought one for my 170mm Fox 36. Any thoughts on adjusting HSC/LSC/Rebound Damper settings when switching from an air spring to a coil spring?


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

noot said:


> Not sure I'd use the word 'cheeky'. These guys work hard to test and deliver great products with availability out of the gate, cheaper than the competition, while going out of their way to answer our questions on this forum. And you ask for a discount? Give your head a shake


A little over protective don't ya think lol

If I have insulted your preciousness I apologise. Push did the same think when they introduced the coil front and the new 11.6 for the Nomad and it's a very common marketing ploy to assist getting a new product out there by giving a token discount.


----------



## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

robmac48 said:


> A little over protective don't ya think lol
> 
> If I have insulted your preciousness I apologise. Push did the same think when they introduced the coil front and the new 11.6 for the Nomad and it's a very common marketing ploy to assist getting a new product out there by giving a token discount.


Price difference between Push and Vorsprung is already there without any discount, it´s not a small amount of money by any means, but compared to push you get uite a lot more for less.


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## noot (Jul 7, 2008)

robmac48 said:


> A little over protective don't ya think lol
> 
> If I have insulted your preciousness I apologise. Push did the same think when they introduced the coil front and the new 11.6 for the Nomad and it's a very common marketing ploy to assist getting a new product out there by giving a token discount.


If you've read the thread you'd see that several people were anxiously waiting to buy, and immediately pulled the trigger for full price when it became available. I don't think they 'need help getting it out there'.

You haven't insulted me, I just think your post shows a lack of respect. Tho I'm guessing you already know this, since you used an alt account to post the question in the first place... Nice


----------



## springs (May 20, 2017)

noot said:


> If you've read the thread you'd see that several people were anxiously waiting to buy, and immediately pulled the trigger for full price when it became available. I don't think they 'need help getting it out there'.
> 
> You haven't insulted me, I just think your post shows a lack of respect. Tho I'm guessing you already know this, since you used an alt account to post the question in the first place... Nice


Lack of respect?? Alt account??...you should PM me regarding these accusations..

I am one of many people who have a collection of Vorsprung products and believe in what Steve is doing with his engineering solutions to suspension problems enabling us to have more fun.

FYI I've already bought the smashpot (one of those people anxiously waiting etc) but it sure as **** doesn't stop me asking for a discount in case I want to buy another. If a code is presented you make sure not to use it.


----------



## noot (Jul 7, 2008)

Frosty2019 said:


> Steve, cheeky I know but are you handing
> out any discount codes for the first orders?
> 
> _ Join Date 01-26-2019_





robmac48 said:


> ... If *I* have insulted your preciousness I apologise...





robmac48 said:


> Alt account??


Hmmm


----------



## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Tree said:


> Steve, what would your personal choice be for oil?


For most temperatures: WPL ShockBoost 20wt, Fox 20wt Gold, Rockshox 0W-30 have all been tested with good results.

For colder temperatures, thinner oils (5-10wt depending on temperature) can be beneficial.



Frosty2019 said:


> Steve, cheeky I know but are you handing
> out any discount codes for the first orders?


Not at the moment, sorry. We are running a giveaway promo over on our Instagram account though...



k-addicted said:


> I just bought one for my 170mm Fox 36. Any thoughts on adjusting HSC/LSC/Rebound Damper settings when switching from an air spring to a coil spring?


Start with them in the same spot if you're happy with your current setup - you may want a little more LSC simply because the friction from the air spring is gone.


----------



## springs (May 20, 2017)

noot said:


> Hmmm


Well there you go. Turns out my son created an account on my computer on the forum and I posted with his log on a few times. Honest mistake. Sorry about that.

Have you bought your smashpot yet??


----------



## noot (Jul 7, 2008)

Np, sorry for being a dick.

I have! It's waiting for me at the LBS! Of course it's also -30C here with a fresh foot of snow... *sigh*


----------



## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

Steve VS said:


> Start with them in the same spot if you're happy with your current setup - you may want a little more LSC *simply because the friction from the air spring is gone*.


:thumbsup:


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

noot said:


> Np, sorry for being a dick.
> 
> I have! It's waiting for me at the LBS! Of course it's also -30C here with a fresh foot of snow... *sigh*


Looks like us in the southern hemisphere will be rippin the new Smashpot first!


----------



## springs (May 20, 2017)

noot said:


> Np, sorry for being a dick.
> 
> I have! It's waiting for me at the LBS! Of course it's also -30C here with a fresh foot of snow... *sigh*


:thumbsup:


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

I just placed an order for a Red Lyrik RC2. Does it come with the Same Fox Orange Vorsprung decals or are the decals a different volor if you have a RS product??


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

Stoke level is through the roof!!!!! 









Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## KiwiJohn (Feb 6, 2007)

After putting a CC coil on the back of my Spitfire, I really want a coil fork now. 
Already running a Luftkappe in the Pike, but I think a coil would be better. 
So, upgrade to a Smash Pot or sell the Pike & get a Helm coil...


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Steve, if in-between a 50 and a 55lb spring I presume pick a 50 and shim it a bit?
ta


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## aski (Oct 12, 2006)

Curious question....I have a 2018 Pike RC which supposedly is greatly over-damped. Where is the greater value? A coil conversion such as the Smashpot or a custom tuned cartridge such as the Avy? I weigh 140 lbs.


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## inaxganja (Aug 8, 2016)

...


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## inaxganja (Aug 8, 2016)

JTmofo said:


> Stoke level is through the roof!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


569g?? Is heavy!! Which spring rate?? Final weight of the fork???


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## pjames12 (Jan 29, 2017)

I'm coil-curious and man has this piqued my interest. Currently running a F34, but I've been debating picking up a take-off Yari and buying the RC2 damper for it so I could run a 140 or 150mm Lyrik...now I'm tempted to get a take off Yari and convert it to coil and buy the RC2 damper.

Anyone have thoughts on what would be a better upgrade for a Yari--swapping the damper or the air for coil? If I do this, I'd eventually do both, but I would probably have to space them out so the wife doesn't kill me .


----------



## noot (Jul 7, 2008)

pjames12 said:


> I'm coil-curious and man has this piqued my interest. Currently running a F34, but I've been debating picking up a take-off Yari and buying the RC2 damper for it so I could run a 140 or 150mm Lyrik...now I'm tempted to get a take off Yari and convert it to coil and buy the RC2 damper.
> 
> Anyone have thoughts on what would be a better upgrade for a Yari--swapping the damper or the air for coil? If I do this, I'd eventually do both, but I would probably have to space them out so the wife doesn't kill me .


I believe this question was asked already, about a Yari as well:



Shredur said:


> I'm assuming that you would want to upgrade the damper on the Yari fork before adding the smashpot right?





Steve VS said:


> You'll notice a bigger change from the spring than the damper on that fork for sure.


----------



## pjames12 (Jan 29, 2017)

noot said:


> I believe this question was asked already, about a Yari as well:


Thats what I get for only skimming the thread. Thanks!


----------



## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

pjames12 said:


> I'm coil-curious and man has this piqued my interest. Currently running a F34, but I've been debating picking up a take-off Yari and buying the RC2 damper for it so I could run a 140 or 150mm Lyrik...now I'm tempted to get a take off Yari and convert it to coil and buy the RC2 damper.
> 
> Anyone have thoughts on what would be a better upgrade for a Yari--swapping the damper or the air for coil? If I do this, I'd eventually do both, but I would probably have to space them out so the wife doesn't kill me .


Yari + Avalanche damper + coil is amazing


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

inaxganja said:


> 569g?? Is heavy!! Which spring rate?? Final weight of the fork???


Spring is a 55lb.
I've no idea of the final weight of the fork.

In fairness, if you're looking at a coil conversion, you should have very little concern about the weight increase.

It's going to be heavier without doubt. Suppose I can always weigh the parts that were removed and discarded and see the delta.... but I can't be arsed. I just want to go and ride it!!!!


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

The Factory Air Spring assembly includes the air spring, top cap, volume spacers, schrader valve, foot nut, etc.... you are probably removing 150-200g. So the net weight gain should likely be under 400g.

I ordered the Smashpot yesterday and got notification today it is shipping out. I was gonna wait for a few reviews first but I decided to just do it since I don't think you can go wrong with a Vorsprung product. 

I got a 45lb spring for a 2019 Lyrik RC2 29er (160mm). I weight 160lbs fully geared up.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

aski said:


> Curious question....I have a 2018 Pike RC which supposedly is greatly over-damped. Where is the greater value? A coil conversion such as the Smashpot or a custom tuned cartridge such as the Avy? I weigh 140 lbs.


Spring is more important than damping, so you will have more benefit from the coil kit for sure.

None of the pikes are overdamped, that is a myth and 2018 is softer than all the previous ones anyway. I guarantee if you have any "harshness" it will disappear after going to coil

I have the exact same fork and hanging out to get my smashpot kit very soon!


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## Calhoun (Nov 11, 2008)

Does the Smashpot work on the Fox Rhythm 36 forks? The ID on the stanchions is smaller than the standard Fox 36 (1.275" vs 1.287" for the airshaft) I realize it is a miniscule difference but it's enough for Fox to manufacturer different air-shafts for the two. 

Curious if this limits the space needed for the Smashpot coil.


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## zhendo (Aug 31, 2011)

aski said:


> Curious question....I have a 2018 Pike RC which supposedly is greatly over-damped. Where is the greater value? A coil conversion such as the Smashpot or a custom tuned cartridge such as the Avy? I weigh 140 lbs.


I disagree with the other reply...I'd start with revalving the damper first. An air spring is super tunable, and you'll be able to get that spring working for your weight just fine, may just need more tokens than average given low pressures that you'll be running not ramping aggressively enough.

At your weight, you're below the typical weight range that Rockshox has in mind when building a damper. The RC is supposedly generally overdamped, so even with a coil spring you'll be running into a compression valving that is too firm for your weight, making the fork feel harsh.

Avy makes a great cartridge, but there are plenty of other tuners who will re-valve the Charger for you for much less money.


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

@JTmofo, Any early ride or parking lot impression?


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## dickrich (Jan 31, 2019)

Calhoun said:


> Does the Smashpot work on the Fox Rhythm 36 forks? The ID on the stanchions is smaller than the standard Fox 36 (1.275" vs 1.287" for the airshaft) I realize it is a miniscule difference but it's enough for Fox to manufacturer different air-shafts for the two.
> 
> Curious if this limits the space needed for the Smashpot coil.


Also, still curious if this the case with the new Marzocchi Bomber Z1?


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

zhendo said:


> At your weight, you're below the typical weight range that Rockshox has in mind when building a damper. The RC is supposedly generally overdamped, so even with a coil spring you'll be running into a compression valving that is too firm for your weight, making the fork feel harsh.
> .


�Supposedly� is the operative word here, the 2017 and earlier forks had a fairly stiff shim stack that people people assumed made a lot of damping but doesn�t. 2018 forks and on are completely different. Harshness is usually either from friction or the spring curve of an air spring.

I have dyno tested most of the modern generation of dampers and I wouldn�t call any of them �overdamped� and it is usually the heavier guys more likely to benefit from a different compression tune.

Like I said, I run this exact fork myself and can bottom it at 70psi without trying that hard at all


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

Calhoun said:


> Does the Smashpot work on the Fox Rhythm 36 forks? The ID on the stanchions is smaller than the standard Fox 36 (1.275" vs 1.287" for the airshaft) I realize it is a miniscule difference but it's enough for Fox to manufacturer different air-shafts for the two.
> 
> Curious if this limits the space needed for the Smashpot coil.


Direct from the Vorsprung website

"What versions of the Fox 36 does it fit?
It fits all versions of the 36 from MY2015 onwards EXCEPT Pedelec e-bike specific forks. IMPORTANT: Call Fox with your serial number to check your fork's maximum permissible travel if attempting to run your fork with the Smashpot over 160mm if this is more travel than it currently has"

Direct from the installation instructions
"ADDITIONAL STEP (19)
FOR FOX 36 FORKS ONLY
19. Using a Heat Gun, install additional
50mm length of red Heat Shrink over the
top of existing Heat Shrink on the COIL
SPRING. This step helps prevent noise
from spring deflection due to the larger
diameter stanchion on the Fox 36. NOTE:
NOT NECESSARY ON 36 RHYTHM"

So to answer your question, then yes.... it is compatible.


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

bmwzimmer said:


> @JTmofo, Any early ride or parking lot impression?


Smashed out a 20km run on it yesterday. Local trail that I know very well. 
First impressions are "this thing is phenomenal".

I'm 88kg kitted, running a 55lb spring in a Fox 36 Grip2 at 160mm.

Small bump compliance (over used cliché) is out of this world. Local trail has lots of small/medium sandstone rock gardens, chunder and hard pack over rock.

I left my damper settings as they were with the air spring as a starting point. I run minimal HSC (to try and deal with packing up and the harshness of high speed repetitive hits), large amounts of LSC and mid range LSR and HSR.

There is a HUGE improvement off the top of the travel. Smooth and buttery with ZERO stiction. Fork remains composed through repetitive high speed hits, and smoothens it out as if its not there. 
I will have to play around with Comp/rebound to find a sweet spot for a little bit more traction on off camber corners, but that's the damper set up to deal with the coil suppleness (it been very dry here and as a consequence its extremely sandy and loose on the off camber corners)

I set the top out damper to a mid setting (will probably dial some damping out today), and didn't manage to hit full travel on the bigger drops and jumps. Saying that, there is nothing huge on this particular trail, so it'll be interesting to see how is goes on bigger trail features with G outs.

For those weight weenies out there.... this is not the upgrade for you. Smashpot weighs more (a lot more) than your air spring. Without weighing the fork after installation, I reckon there's 450 to 500g additional. Spring, extra spacer material and oil volume all add to the extra weight.

You can definitely feel the extra mass on the trail, especially pumping, pre-hopping and picking the front up over features. That said, its only a matter of getting used to it, and so far the positives definitely outweigh the weight penalty.

Highly recommended..... just buy one.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

JTmofo said:


> Smashed out a 20km run on it yesterday. Local trail that I know very well.
> First impressions are "this thing is phenomenal".
> 
> I'm 88kg kitted, running a 55lb spring in a Fox 36 Grip2 at 160mm.
> ...


so the spring weights on the chart are good? you still have a little left in reserve it seems.


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

Yeah I reckon it's pretty close. 
I haven't tweaked the bottom out damper so I'm going to presume I can work full travel out of it. 

Its pretty spot on in terms of sag @25% so that's all you can ask for from a coil. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

nice 👍


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

JTmofo said:


> Yeah I reckon it's pretty close.
> I haven't tweaked the bottom out damper so I'm going to presume I can work full travel out of it.
> 
> Its pretty spot on in terms of sag @25% so that's all you can ask for from a coil.
> ...


Nice man, I am a weight weenie as I am 145lb or 155lbs fully geared up with water so I will definitely feel the added weight more than heavier guys. Regardless I am going for it.

The good thing with a Grip 2 Fox 36 or a RC2 Lyric is if your spring rate is too high, you can run less HSC and if it's a bit too Low you can add some back or increase the top out damper a bit.

Increase the top out damper is better than increasing HSC right??


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

bmwzimmer said:


> Nice man, I am a weight weenie as I am 145lb or 155lbs fully geared up with water so I will definitely feel the added weight more than heavier guys. Regardless I am going for it.
> 
> The good thing with a Grip 2 Fox 36 or a RC2 Lyric is if your spring rate is too high, you can run less HSC and if it's a bit too Low you can add some back or increase the top out damper a bit.
> 
> Increase the top out damper is better than increasing HSC right??


I'm going to say that I would use the bottom out adjustment to achieve full travel before playing with the HSC or LSC. 
The Smashpot bottom out damper is completely independent of the Fork damper, so change will only impact the bottom out force (albeit also the damping in the last 40% of travel).

Any change to the fork damper HSC/LSC will affect the damping through the entire range.

I'm open to be corrected here... seeing as the Smashpot is new (along with its bottom out control)

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

JTmofo said:


> Direct from the Vorsprung website
> 
> "What versions of the Fox 36 does it fit?
> It fits all versions of the 36 from MY2015 onwards EXCEPT Pedelec e-bike specific forks.


That makes sense as the 36 e-bike fork uses the 34's internals.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

For those asking whether it fits a 36 Rhythm - yes it does. The stanchions are thicker, but these kits fit inside 35mm forks to begin with. Top caps in the Rhythms are identical to the Factory/Performance series forks.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Steve VS said:


> For those asking whether it fits a 36 Rhythm - yes it does. The stanchions are thicker, but these kits fit inside 35mm forks to begin with. Top caps in the Rhythms are identical to the Factory/Performance series forks.


Am I the only one who reads Steves responses while mentally hearing his accent?

Thanks Steve for all your help here and on your Tuesday Tune!!


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## Calhoun (Nov 11, 2008)

JTmofo said:


> So to answer your question, then yes.... it is compatible.





Steve VS said:


> For those asking whether it fits a 36 Rhythm - yes it does. The stanchions are thicker, but these kits fit inside 35mm forks to begin with. Top caps in the Rhythms are identical to the Factory/Performance series forks.


Awesome, thanks guys!


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## SyT (Jul 27, 2005)

Could someone post the spring's dimensions? Im curious if anything in my " coil pile" fits this.


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## RobMega275 (Feb 10, 2019)

Any ideas?

I got it fitted no problem today.
The feel is very good but I'm getting quite a loud "top out" noise even when the rebound damping is set too slow.
I'm using the 45lb spring at 170mm, I weigh 72Kg with kit.
The top out noise is not noticeable when riding off kerbs and general car park ring (all I could try today).

I've taken the assembly out and checked everything (without removing the shrink wrap), can't see anything that I've done wrong. 10mm top out spacer and 40mm of pre-load spacers.

The noise sound is very similar to manually pulling the top out assembly up against the top out spring, I can then feel the top out spring if I manually pull harder.

Maybe it's normal? My son's bike with ACS conversion on a Fox 36 does not make this noise.

Thanks everyone


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

Did you stick in those preload spacers to make sure the spring is tight?


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## Erotomania (Feb 14, 2011)

I want to try this thing so bad, but I don’t know if my bike can take any more weight (34lbs).


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## SyT (Jul 27, 2005)

Do you mean 40mm of actual preload? That's a solid 30+ too much


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

Per the Instructions, 2-4mm
12. Check that the COIL SPRING is adequately pre-loaded so that it is not able to rattle around. One or two of the 2mm SPRING SPACERS (part number: 13-07-3-08) may be required for appropriate preload. Position the longest spacers closest to the COIL SPRING and the shortest spacers furthest away as this help stabilise the spring assembly during use.
**NOTE: Do not use any more preload than is necessary to hold the COIL SPRING in place. Over-preloaded forks may make noise when reaching full extension.


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

I have the exact same symptoms, preload is exact as per the instructions and I have tried to add / remove spacers and adjust the spring preload cap within the specified tolerance of 8 to 10mm, but still the same.

Like you say, its not obvious when you ride, but when you lift the bike (into the car, or lifting the front end for a jump etc.) you get a top out sound and quite a pronounced feeling of the top out spring platform hitting the travel spacers. 

I've stripped mine down and checked everything and have even gone so far as to try a rubber o ring on the shaft, so that is contacted instead of the nylon top out spring spacer, but the top out feeling is still very much present.

I've been in contact with Steve @ Vorsprung who has been incredibly helpful and responsive and I will hopefully be speaking to him this evening (I'm in the UK) to try and work out what's causing it.

It may be that I am being fussy, as this isn't that obvious with normal riding, but I can bounce up and down on the fork really lightly and get the feeling that you would with a worn shock bushing so it doesn't seem right - It isn't a top out due to too much spring preload, but even with excessive preload, the top out should remain silent as it is in the factory version, or as mentioned the ACS3.

Hope to get it cleared up after speaking with Steve, as I really like the hydraulic bottom out control and everything else on the conversion is spot on!

I'll update when I've spoken to Steve!


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

rjwspeedjunkie said:


> I have the exact same symptoms, preload is exact as per the instructions and I have tried to add / remove spacers and adjust the spring preload cap within the specified tolerance of 8 to 10mm, but still the same.
> 
> Like you say, its not obvious when you ride, but when you lift the bike (into the car, or lifting the front end for a jump etc.) you get a top out sound and quite a pronounced feeling of the top out spring platform hitting the travel spacers.
> 
> ...


rjwspeedjunkie, just curious, what travel setting are you using? and what fork?


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

160mm.....


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

and it definitely not the footnut?


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

louf said:


> and it definitely not the footnut?


Absolutely certain, everything has been fitted, re fitted, torqued exactly to specification etc. I'm just trying some other things and I'm certain there is no way with the one I have to get rid of the top out as it's simply a case of two parts impacting one another without any damping.

Hopefully I'll know more after speaking with Steve, but it's either 'the way it is' in which case maybe I'm being fussy, or there is something not right that needs a change of part.

I'm an ex pro mechanic and still spanner for some local teams, so hopefully I'm not doing something stupid, although I'm more than happy to concede defeat if that turns out to be the case


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

rjwspeedjunkie said:


> hopefully I'm not doing something stupid, although I'm more than happy to concede defeat if that turns out to be the case


usually nice when it is as its the simplest fix!


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

Well, my turn for an issue/problem which may be my fault. I am running a 70lb pring for a boost pike form which i want to set to 140mm. I have 40mm of top out spacers on one 10mm preload spacer for the spring installed. The problem im having is, my fork has about 155mm of stanchion showing and the fork is very firm on spring rate. The firmness makes sense since i should be on a 60lb spring at that travel setting. Im thinking about tearing it apart again, but i know i have it assembled as per the instructions. Anyone else have a similar problem?

Edit, Steve responded super quick to my email and stated that 2018+ 29er pikes do not need the top cap spacer. Heads up in advance for anyone with a newer pike. The spacer is only for 14-17 29er pikes


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

Quick update - I've caught up with Steve and run through my top out issue - It seems me and one other person have reported the same thing, so I went through a bunch of things with him to hopefully allow the issue to be replicated in the Vorsprung workshop. 

Steve said to give him a couple of days to investigate, so I will post up the conclusion when we have something sorted


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

Luckily, tkblazer's issue was easily resolved and without having to take the whole fork apart. 
@tkblazer, please let us know how the fork feels (besides the wrong spring rate) and if there is any unusual sounds. 

@RobMega275, rjwspeedjunkie, with the topout sounds, What forks are you guys running? 

@JTmofo, no top out sounds with your Grip 2 Fox 36?

I'm receiving my Smashpot kit for a Lyrik Application today and not sure if I should wait to see what the issue is before installing it....


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

Fork feels great, but I won’t be able to hit the trails until tomorrow. Not issues with top out at all, I did add two clicks of rebound damping since it felt a bit quick with the coil spring.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

rjwspeedjunkie said:


> Quick update - I've caught up with Steve and run through my top out issue - It seems me and one other person have reported the same thing, so I went through a bunch of things with him to hopefully allow the issue to be replicated in the Vorsprung workshop.
> 
> Steve said to give him a couple of days to investigate, so I will post up the conclusion when we have something sorted


Correct - you and @RobMega275 are the ones who've reported this so far. Haven't managed to properly replicate this in the workshop yet but we're trying a bunch of different things to see what's causing it so we can get it sorted for you. I'll shoot you an email and post here once we've got it figured out.


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

bmwzimmer said:


> Luckily, tkblazer's issue was easily resolved and without having to take the whole fork apart.
> @tkblazer, please let us know how the fork feels (besides the wrong spring rate) and if there is any unusual sounds.
> 
> @RobMega275, rjwspeedjunkie, with the topout sounds, What forks are you guys running?
> ...


I'm running 2019 Fox 36 Factory with Grip 2 damper. I wouldn't be nervous about going for the smashpot, the top out in getting does seem to be an isolated issue on the two mentioned cases, which I believe are both on 36s!


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## Condor[ger] (Sep 3, 2005)

Is it possible that the damper unit is actually making the top out sound?


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

Condor[ger] said:


> Is it possible that the damper unit is actually making the top out sound?


Negative, the sound and feeling is 100% from the spring side and can be felt with the coil both in and out of the fork, as well as by manually pulling the damper shaft in and out without the spring on the damper.


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## RobMega275 (Feb 10, 2019)

Ok, I followed Steve's advice and backed off the spring cap to absolutely no preload - cured the problem unless I remove all the rebound damping!

FYI;
Lyrik at 170mm
Fast Damper
45lb spring - think I might need a 40lb
Rebound feels good at 6/7 clicks out from fully closed.


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

bmwzimmer said:


> @JTmofo, no top out sounds with your Grip 2 Fox 36?


No mate, all clear on my install. I did make an extra effort to ensure the most minimal of preload on the spring as per the install instructions.

To achieve this, I didn't use any spacers and I measured exactly 9mm with the spring held securely.

"Preload needs to be adjusted using the
included spacers so that this no-play
condition occurs when approximately 9mm
of INNER TUBE thread is exposed (Max
10mm, Min 8mm).

**NOTE: Do not use any more preload than
is necessary to hold the COIL SPRING in
place. Over-preloaded forks may make
noise when reaching full extension."


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

Condor[ger] said:


> Is it possible that the damper unit is actually making the top out sound?





JTmofo said:


> No mate, all clear on my install. I did make an extra effort to ensure the most minimal of preload on the spring as per the install instructions.
> 
> To achieve this, I didn't use any spacers and I measured exactly 9mm with the spring held securely.
> 
> ...


Just for my own sanity, if you lift the front end of the bike up, do you feel any knocking at all as you lift it? That's where I am getting the noise and feeling from.

Also measured at an exact 9mm (plus tried 1mm increments from 7 to 10 and more or less the same results)


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

and its not the spacers in the inner tube assembly?


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

rjwspeedjunkie said:


> Just for my own sanity, if you lift the front end of the bike up, do you feel any knocking at all as you lift it? That's where I am getting the noise and feeling from.
> 
> Also measured at an exact 9mm (plus tried 1mm increments from 7 to 10 and more or less the same results)


I can feel it top out, sometimes with a miniscule audible knock, but not all the time. Pumping and lifting the front over square edges is about the only time I feel/hear it.

The nature of a coil spring in this application is always going to have some noise/feedback vs an air spring.

It's something I expected before purchasing, so its not an issue for me. Coil shocks also have a harsher than air top out, but you rarely top out while on the bike (only when the rear is completely unloaded).

The fork is at that top out position much more often, and when linked directly to your hands through the bars, will feel and sound much more pronounced.


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

Condor[ger] said:


> Is it possible that the damper unit is actually making the top out sound?





louf said:


> and its not the spacers in the inner tube assembly?


No, had that apart a few times and checked all is as it should be. Really hard to explain it all really. The noise is clearly the impact of the travel spacers and the white plastic collar at the bottom on the top out spring - which are two parts that are designed to impact one another

The issue with mine is that regardless of how much preload I use, there is a definite top out clunk - less preload being better than more as the more you add the more the two parts colide with the pressure of the spring. However, when set to minimum preload, I can pick up the front of the bike and really feel the top out as the weight of the front wheel pulls down a few mm, which is then obvious if lifting the front wheel for jumps etc.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

rjwspeedjunkie said:


> The issue with mine is that regardless of how much preload I use, there is a definite top out clunk - less preload being better than more as the more you add the more the two parts colide with the pressure of the spring. However, when set to minimum preload, I can pick up the front of the bike and really feel the top out as the weight of the front wheel pulls down a few mm, which is then obvious if lifting the front wheel for jumps etc.


gotcha, the inner tube spring could be longer.


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## DoYouEvenRideCoilBro (Nov 23, 2017)

So, I know one of the posters on here - the issue appears to have been fixed by following Steves advice and having the bit that should show 8-9mm - show 7mm after speaking to him on the phone. I haven't had the kit in my hand to know what the hell he is talking about really though and ascertain why that fixes it. It's got something to do with getting the preload perfect I think.


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

louf said:


> gotcha, the inner tube spring could be longer.


Yes, my initial thought was that the spring needed to be longer / softer and have a rubber bumper, so it would have a less pronounced sound when impacting the spacers and would have a more 'damped' feeling. However, seeing as it just seems to be me with this issue, the design must be fine and it's just something amiss with my setup somehow

I'm confident Steve will get me sorted, but I've literally explored every possible option to resolve and I pride myself on engineering skills and bike setup so I'm interested to see what we end up with.


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## DoYouEvenRideCoilBro (Nov 23, 2017)

See my above post, try setting the spring collar so that only 7mm of tube is showing.


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

Condor[ger] said:


> Is it possible that the damper unit is actually making the top out sound?





DoYouEvenRideCoilBro said:


> See my above post, try setting it the spring collar so that only 7mm of tube is showing.


Already done that, as per previous posts, I've gone from 7 to 10mm. Having talked it through with Steve it's not as simple to fix as the other reported issue.


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## DoYouEvenRideCoilBro (Nov 23, 2017)

You stated 8 to 10mm as per the instructions, Steve instructed him to take it down to 7.

EDIT: Sorry just found the bit where you stated 7 to 10.


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

DoYouEvenRideCoilBro said:


> You stated 8 to 10mm as per the instructions, Steve instructed him to take it down to 7.


Please read my posts, 7 to 10mm in 1mm increments, I've run through it all in depth with Steve. It's not just on the number of mm either, it's the effective preload on the coil, which I have even gone past and into having no preload.

At this stage, whilst I appreciate the gesture of assistance, I'm happy to leave in the hands of vorsprung to try and figure out as its a pretty simple system and every option has been explored thus far with no avail


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## DoYouEvenRideCoilBro (Nov 23, 2017)

Yeah, that's fine buddy. Sorry - was just be over eager to try and be helpful. Can't you see I like coils?


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

Condor[ger] said:


> Is it possible that the damper unit is actually making the top out sound?





DoYouEvenRideCoilBro said:


> Yeah, that's fine buddy. Sorry - was just be over eager to try and be helpful. Can't you see I like coils?


No worries man, I do appreciate it and I'm with you on coil! I already had an acs3 and want to change to the smashpot as I prefer the hydraulic damping principal. I'm running an EXT storia on the rear and have already got a V3 version on the way, also with hydraulic bottom out. It will be the best coil combination possible (in my opinion at least)

Also have Ohlins 36 coils / ttx22 on another bike and ttx22 on my dh rig


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## DoYouEvenRideCoilBro (Nov 23, 2017)

I like the way you think - I'm going with an EXT V3 shock as well, I'm planning on getting the Vorsprung - haven't been put off by this yet. No other reports besides these two and Steves response is awesome. They'll sort it for you, try not to get wound up - I say that because I'm prone to doing so hahah. 

Steves really great, the other poster likes him a lot and has been very happy with the response from steve. The poster is just a tired overworked dude who commutes stupid distances who has probably forgotten to update you all on here.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Alright, we have managed to replicate and isolate what we believe is causing the knocking in @rjwspeedjunkie's fork - it's basically the relatively wide tolerances on spring lengths meaning that in some assemblies the topout spring may be slightly preloaded by the spacer/plunger that hold it captive. When there's no preload on that topout spring, it's quiet - when there's preload, it makes noise when it contacts and releases. It doesn't seem that any noise is noticeable when riding from what we can ascertain, but pushing up/down on the bars less than 5mm or so may generate it. The amount of preload on the main spring also affects how noticeable it is, and so reducing preload to a minimal amount may cure it entirely in some cases (as per @RobMega275).

The solution here is fairly simple from our end, and anyone who is experiencing this should shoot me an email so we can get you sorted out and on the trails asap. steve at vorsprung suspension dot com


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

The v3 will be awesome if the current one is anything to go by, I've had pretty much every shock and this is by far the best of them!

I have every confidence in Steve, we should know in the next couple of days where things are, so fingers crossed it will be something easy! I'm pretty chilled about it, the only thing that stresses me is the fact I've taken the fork apart like 8 times in the last few days and used a lot of fluids in the process - luckily I have a few fresh bottles of everything I need!


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

Got my kit in today for a 2019 Lyric RC2
The top cap comes with a spacer preinstalled. Do I just leave the spacer in there or do I remove it? The instructions show a different looking spacer for a Pike 29 application.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

Doesnt look you can remove it or its designed not to be removed


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## RobMega275 (Feb 10, 2019)

Yes, it's meant to stay in so leave it alone - my Lyriks feel/sound great now! Just need to get out into the woods!


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

So how far back did you set the preload? Just enough that the spring doesn't rattle?
What was the reveal on the threads? 5mm?

I have my kit ready to install and just want to make all the fine adjustments to avoid a unnecessary disassembly. 

Thanks!


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## RobMega275 (Feb 10, 2019)

No pre-load at all, just touching the spring to avoid vertical movement of the spring (mine can move laterally with light finger force). Get in touch with Steve if you've less than 8mm of thread showing at this point and he'll sort you out.


Mine is spot on now!


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

Thanks.
I just adjusted mine and in order to get no top out noise I'm at about 6-7mm's of thread showing.

If I go more than that I can compress and release the spring by hand and can hear and feel the top out. 
I suppose I could go to 8mm and hopefully the spring will settle a little.


Maybe Steve will chime in.


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## RobMega275 (Feb 10, 2019)

Yes, mine was around the same measurement, email Vorsprung, Steve has a solution.


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## alan1 (Mar 22, 2007)

Steve VS said:


> Alright, we have managed to replicate and isolate what we believe is causing the knocking in @rjwspeedjunkie's fork - it's basically the relatively wide tolerances on spring lengths meaning that in some assemblies the topout spring may be slightly preloaded by the spacer/plunger that hold it captive. When there's no preload on that topout spring, it's quiet - when there's preload, it makes noise when it contacts and releases. It doesn't seem that any noise is noticeable when riding from what we can ascertain, but pushing up/down on the bars less than 5mm or so may generate it. The amount of preload on the main spring also affects how noticeable it is, and so reducing preload to a minimal amount may cure it entirely in some cases (as per @RobMega275).
> 
> The solution here is fairly simple from our end, and anyone who is experiencing this should shoot me an email so we can get you sorted out and on the trails asap. steve at vorsprung suspension dot com


Do you have the spring length so I can check before fitting Steve.


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## RobMega275 (Feb 10, 2019)

Alan,

No need to measure just fit as I described and if there's less than 8mm of thread showing Steve will be able to sort you out, as he has done very promptly for me. PM me if you like.


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## alan1 (Mar 22, 2007)

RobMega275 said:


> Alan,
> 
> No need to measure just fit as I described and if there's less than 8mm of thread showing Steve will be able to sort you out, as he has done very promptly for me. PM me if you like.


RobMega275, I am getting the kit fitted by a local shop, so would be handy to know before I get the kit fitted, can I check this out without fitting in the fork.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

bmwzimmer said:


> Got my kit in today for a 2019 Lyric RC2
> The top cap comes with a spacer preinstalled. Do I just leave the spacer in there or do I remove it? The instructions show a different looking spacer for a Pike 29 application.
> 
> 
> ...


That isn't a spacer, that's just the top cap - install as is.



Tree said:


> Thanks.
> I just adjusted mine and in order to get no top out noise I'm at about 6-7mm's of thread showing.
> 
> If I go more than that I can compress and release the spring by hand and can hear and feel the top out.
> ...


Do you already have it installed in the fork? Outside the fork with no oil in it you will always be able to hear something, but inside the fork it should be pretty quiet.



alan1 said:


> Do you have the spring length so I can check before fitting Steve.


Springs on their own are nearly impossible to measure accurately enough here - what you want to check is whether you can freely move the topout spring and the spacer behind it by hand. It should be able to turn freely with zero preload (some float is also acceptable). If not, email me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's usually fine to have a few millimetres of preload on the main spring, that is not a big deal in and of itself unless the fork is noisy. The topout noise is due to the topout spring itself being preloaded when it should not be, which can be exacerbated by main spring preload. In cases where the topout spring preload is low enough, running the main spring preload very close to zero may result in it being quiet (as was the case for @RobMega275). If the topout spring preload is higher though, then some noise may be noticeable no matter what your main spring preload is set to. It is normal for the main spring to engage the spring collar prior to the 8-10mm of thread being exposed.

If your topout spring and spacer can rotate freely on the shaft with no substantial force (some float is fine too), proceed with the installation as per the instructions, it'll be fine. If not, shoot me an email and we'll get you out the replacement topout spacer and the installation tool within a day or two. It'll come with extra heat shrink for those concerned about removing/reinstalling that.

If you've already installed the kit and there is no unacceptable noise, or the main spring preload can be adjusted within the 8-10mm limits for no noise, you're all good - go ride.


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

Just to confirm, the fix advised to me by Steve has sorted my issue. The whole setup is now in the fork, absolutely silent and working a treat.

Glad I persevered, first ride today and it's an awesome bit of kit, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it.

If you do have the same issue with top out noise, ping Steve an email and he will hook you up. 

Thanks again Steve!


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## alan1 (Mar 22, 2007)

Steve can I do a dry install, just to check before taking to the shop, I dont have all the tools.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

alan1 said:


> Steve can I do a dry install, just to check before taking to the shop, I dont have all the tools.


Just check the topout spring preload as mentioned previously and email me if it's at all tight to turn - if it is, we'll get you the necessary fix en route.


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

It's Done, the bike is now Full coil front and rear!!

The spring rate (45lbs) feels pretty good for my weight. I'm a bit under 160lbs fully geared up.

With the weight gain up front, the bike actually feels more balanced than before as the rear end of my bike is quite heavy with a coil shock and a 250g Tire Insert.

Can't wait to try it out










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

bmwzimmer said:


> It's Done, the bike is now Full coil front and rear!!
> 
> The spring rate (45lbs) feels pretty good for my weight. I'm a bit under 160lbs fully geared up.
> 
> ...


Sweet. Enjoy man!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

Is there any negative effects if I run the preload collar set at 6-7mm's of thread showing?


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Tree said:


> Is there any negative effects if I run the preload collar set at 6-7mm's of thread showing?


Yes - not enough thread insertion in the top cap is the main one.


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

*Smashpot Initial Impressions*

Went for a ride this morning and have some feedback/impressions

Installation:

-	Easy and straight forward but my Top cap is a little beat up because who the heck has a 28mm flattened socket handy? I have a 24mm socket for rockshock top caps but no 28mm so had to settle for an adjustable wrench. To make matters worse, I tightened the top cap down and realized I forgot to add 120ml of oil so I had to remove it and reinstall it with the wrench. A 28mm socket is now on order and in my Amazon basket.
-	Heat Shrink tubing won't shrink with a standard Hair Blow Drier. You need more heat than that. I have an electric stove that heat the tubing nice and evenly
-	I didn't have any cone wrenches handy so I had to use needle nose pliers and estimate the torque. My arms are calibrated to +/- 10 in-lbs.

Setup:

-	I'm 145-150lbs naked, 155-160lbs geared up with water.
-	45lb Spring, 1 Click of HSC (0 clicks is easiest, 4 clicks is highest/most resistance)
-	3 clicks of LSC (0 is easiest or most supple, 18ish is highest/more supportive)
-	7 Click of Rebound (7 from the slowest) 
-	Smashpot Bottom out Resistance is 6 clicks from the least bottom out resistance.

Appearance:

-	Looks good, high quality!! 
-	The Orange Vorsprung sticker is too big/long and doesn't wrap around very well.
-	The Orange Color is terrible with a red bike/fork but I'll just live with it. Those stickers are supposed to help shave off a couple seconds off your strava times!!
-	The Larger Black sticker looks Nice

Weight:

-	My Lyric weighed 2050g 
-	Air Spring components on my 2019 Lyric weighed only 90-95g. (170mm Debonair Airspring (58g), nut at the bottom, C-clip, Topcap, 1 volume spacer, 10ml of oil) 
-	Smashpot with a bit of Sram Butter on the springs weighed 550g.
-	120ml of suspension oil weighs about 96g (assuming a density of .8Kg/Liter)
-	Total weight is about 2600g.

Climbing:

-	The fork is very active when pedaling. I have my Shock set to a firm climbing mode and usually never touch my fork. My climbing Segments on Strava are not any faster nor slower but I felt a bit more tired in the climbs today. It could be the added weight or more than likely it's me not riding as often since it's been raining a lot lately.
-	Increasing LSC on the fork does pretty much nothing for climbing. I see the fork moving with pretty much every pedal stroke. It didn't do that with air since it used to be a lot stickier. Surprisingly, increasing HSC helped reduce pedal induced bob more than LSC. Weird&#8230;..

Descending:

-	Way less arm pump
-	Buttery Smooth and tracks the ground like crazy. Excellent support in both midstroke and end stroke. 
-	The fork's movement throughout the travel is seamless and smooth. No unusual noises or anything.
-	Most Coil forks I've tried feel kind of dead to me. They soak up the trail well but I didn't like how they feel when pumping and jumping. This fork somehow feels more lively and supportive when pumping and jumping. The fun factor is definitely there
-	It has a "lively" air like characteristic when pumping and jumping. Makes the trail more fun but at the same time, just eats up the rough stuff too.

Other Observations:

-	After initial installation, the fork felt pretty smooth and better than air but the stiction was not as good as an ACS3 I tried. However, by about midway through the first ride, it feels like it's gotten a chance to break in and the breakaway force now feels identical. 
-	The breakaway force when pressing straight down on the handlebars to get the seals to break stiction on the ACS3 and the Smashpot is about 5-10lbs. A just serviced 2019 Lyric takes about 10-15lbs. A Lyric after a month of use drops down to 20-25lbs.
- I tried slowing down the rebound just 1 click (from 7 to 6) and it felt pretty good. 
- Did a couple 4 ft drops and it felt good. The progression at the end works really well. Ended up with about 15mm left of travel on the fork so I think my spring rate is SPOT ON. I can tweak compression and play with the smashpot knob if needed for bike park days

Overall the biggest take away for me isn't the fork's ability to soak up the trail, that's kind of expected for a coil shock. It's the combination of eating up the trail while feeling smooth and lively. It doesn't feel dead. 
It's biggest negative is the weight. It's going to be pretty much the heaviest Enduro Coil fork out there. I attached the weight of a Push coil for reference.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

^nice review. Literally just placed my order as my target fork just arrived and checked out. I'm not even set on the frame platform yet but this product spoke to me from first moment I saw it. Pretty stoked. 180mm lyrik...braaap.


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

Great write up and I’m jealous you got to sneak out to oaks for a ride yesterday. Just my luck I wake up with a cold on the day before local storms are going to hit.


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

tkblazer said:


> Great write up and I'm jealous you got to sneak out to oaks for a ride yesterday. Just my luck I wake up with a cold on the day before local storms are going to hit.


Nice, i'm down the street from Oaks. Yea i went to work at 10:00 instead of 8:00 this morning to get a ride in before the rain!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

So 2 short rides in, I went for the softer spring for my weight, think I’ll go medium now. 180mm Fox 36, 40lbs spring, will go the 45. Fork feels incredible active and smooth. I ain’t going back to air. 
I do have some top out clunk and some midstroke knock/noise so fork will come apart for checking when I put in the heavier spring rate.


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## Erotomania (Feb 14, 2011)

B Rabbit said:


> So 2 short rides in, I went for the softer spring for my weight, think I'll go medium now. 180mm Fox 36, 40lbs spring, will go the 45. Fork feels incredible active and smooth. I ain't going back to air.
> I do have some top out clunk and some midstroke knock/noise so fork will come apart for checking when I put in the heavier spring rate.


I'm between the 40 and 45 lb spring @ 180mm. What do you weigh?


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

Erotomania said:


> I'm between the 40 and 45 lb spring @ 180mm. What do you weigh?


I'm about 80kgs


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

I started getting some knocking and squeaking noises from the Smashpot this mor ing during a ride. 
Got home and whipped out the spring. The heat shrink had migrated to the bottom of the spring. 

Note to the installers: Ensure the heat shrink is fully shrunk at the 100mm mark. 

This was installed error on my part, Smashpot is working flawlessly and feels amazing. 



Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Okay, while we are discussing springs, I'm going to add my 2 cents in case it's helpful to anyone else. I'm about 154 so figured about 10 lbs more in gear and water. Running 140mm travel Pike. Went with "medium setup" recommendation of 55 lb spring for 140mm travel and 165 lb rider weight. Also ordered a 60 lb spring "just in case." Well, I think it's a reflection of my poor riding skills/slow speed, but the 55 lb spring is super stiff for me. Only getting maybe 40% off the travel at the most with hydraulic bottom out knob backed out all the way. Maybe Steve is used to working with hard core riders at Whistler? Monster drops, etc... That is definitely not me and I've now ordered a 50 lb and a 45 lb spring.


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## Condor[ger] (Sep 3, 2005)

I seems like Vorsprung springrate suggestions are for body weight only. Steve wrote that somewhere if i remember correctly, i guess it was on instagram. There should be a small hint on the website.
I used the push acs3 spring chart to be safe (they seem to use body weight + never go full enduro kit)


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

One thing I learnt from the MRP Ribbon coil thread is people of the same weight and fork travel can have vastly different results on the same spring rate. 
And that is just a fact of life of running a coil, front or back, it can take a couple of goes to find the right spring rate (which can be expensive), but when you do you wont have to think about it again


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Condor[ger] said:


> I seems like Vorsprung springrate suggestions are for body weight only. Steve wrote that somewhere if i remember correctly, i guess it was on instagram. There should be a small hint on the website.
> I used the push acs3 spring chart to be safe (they seem to use body weight + never go full enduro kit)


From Instagram..
littleeric15
@vorsprungsuspension your spring chart quotes 'rider weight' is that in the buff, or fully clothed with shoes and backpack/fanny pack on?

vorsprungsuspension
@littleeric15 generally just body weight unless you ride with a fairly heavy pack


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Chris2fur said:


> Okay, while we are discussing springs, I'm going to add my 2 cents in case it's helpful to anyone else. I'm about 154 so figured about 10 lbs more in gear and water. Running 140mm travel Pike. Went with "medium setup" recommendation of 55 lb spring for 140mm travel and 165 lb rider weight. Also ordered a 60 lb spring "just in case." Well, I think it's a reflection of my poor riding skills/slow speed, but the 55 lb spring is super stiff for me. Only getting maybe 40% off the travel at the most with hydraulic bottom out knob backed out all the way. Maybe Steve is used to working with hard core riders at Whistler? Monster drops, etc... That is definitely not me and I've now ordered a 50 lb and a 45 lb spring.


Thanks for the feedback Chris - sorry our recommendations weren't on the ball for you! Big compressions where you can put your whole body weight heavily through the fork for more than just a fraction of a second tend to be where the most travel is used (not necessarily drops or jumps, you can definitely do this without leaving the ground, but you're right that this is a common thing up in BC) so the terrain you're riding tends to play a big part in that.

The faster and more open the trails you're on, the more kinetic energy you have to ram through the suspension travel, so basically really open/fast trails with big g-outs in them are where people tend to overload the suspension travel the most. If your trails tend to be slower and/or don't have a ton of those big compressions in them, then a softer spring may stand you in good stead.

For those curious - yes the chart works off body weight alone, it already makes allowances for bike and (minimal) gear weight, basically clothing + kneepads + helmet + shoes. If you carry around a fairly substantial amount of gear in a pack then consider adding that, but otherwise fresh out of the shower weight.


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

Steve VS said:


> Thanks for the feedback Chris - sorry our recommendations weren't on the ball for you! Big compressions where you can put your whole body weight heavily through the fork for more than just a fraction of a second tend to be where the most travel is used (not necessarily drops or jumps, you can definitely do this without leaving the ground, but you're right that this is a common thing up in BC) so the terrain you're riding tends to play a big part in that.
> 
> The faster and more open the trails you're on, the more kinetic energy you have to ram through the suspension travel, so basically really open/fast trails with big g-outs in them are where people tend to overload the suspension travel the most. If your trails tend to be slower and/or don't have a ton of those big compressions in them, then a softer spring may stand you in good stead.
> 
> For those curious - yes the chart works off body weight alone, it already makes allowances for bike and (minimal) gear weight, basically clothing + kneepads + helmet + shoes. If you carry around a fairly substantial amount of gear in a pack then consider adding that, but otherwise fresh out of the shower weight.


Hi there Steve, I hink it would be cool if you could use comparison in the chart to get better idea, like if you have RS lyrik, pike etc., with no tokens and recommended pressures are right, than Vorsprung chart will be spot on , if you have to add more pressure than recommended, go one spring rate higher etc., there must be some pattern and most people have air pressures dialed to their liking, so it would be more accurate I think.


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## Erotomania (Feb 14, 2011)

ghostbiker said:


> Hi there Steve, I hink it would be cool if you could use comparison in the chart to get better idea, like if you have RS lyrik, pike etc., with no tokens and recommended pressures are right, than Vorsprung chart will be spot on , if you have to add more pressure than recommended, go one spring rate higher etc., there must be some pattern and most people have air pressures dialed to their liking, so it would be more accurate I think.


I think the only way to figure out the right spring rate is trial and error. You can study and calculate all day, but it won't give you a definite answer. Unfortunately, that just adds more hassle and cost to running a coil. Still well worth it IMO.


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

Erotomania said:


> I think the only way to figure out the right spring rate is trial and error. You can study and calculate all day, but it won't give you a definite answer. Unfortunately, that just adds more hassle and cost to running a coil. Still well worth it IMO.


Maybe we should set up a spring swap arrangement?

Someone needs a lighter/heavier spring, swap with someone who needs the opposite?

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

I have a 60lb spring I don't need if anyone uk based wants it - no need for a swap, I have what I need already, but happy to help someone out if you cover the cost of shipping!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> Okay, while we are discussing springs, I'm going to add my 2 cents in case it's helpful to anyone else. I'm about 154 so figured about 10 lbs more in gear and water. Running 140mm travel Pike. Went with "medium setup" recommendation of 55 lb spring for 140mm travel and 165 lb rider weight. Also ordered a 60 lb spring "just in case." Well, I think it's a reflection of my poor riding skills/slow speed, but the 55 lb spring is super stiff for me. Only getting maybe 40% off the travel at the most with hydraulic bottom out knob backed out all the way. Maybe Steve is used to working with hard core riders at Whistler? Monster drops, etc... That is definitely not me and I've now ordered a 50 lb and a 45 lb spring.


There's a lot of terrain and preference that comes into springs.

I am ~73kg plus riding gear and the last time I ran my own coil fork it was 30 lb/in and that was too soft. A 44lb/in Boxxer spring is firmer than I want.

I'd shoot for 40lb/in but I like my suspension to be fast and active.


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## Erotomania (Feb 14, 2011)

JTmofo said:


> Maybe we should set up a spring swap arrangement?
> 
> Someone needs a lighter/heavier spring, swap with someone who needs the opposite?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


That's a pretty darn good idea.


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Dougal said:


> There's a lot of terrain and preference that comes into springs.
> 
> I am ~73kg plus riding gear and the last time I ran my own coil fork it was 30 lb/in and that was too soft. A 44lb/in Boxxer spring is firmer than I want.
> 
> I'd shoot for 40lb/in but I like my suspension to be fast and active.


Thanks. As has been pointed out, many factors are involved, and it goes a long way to explaining why air springs have made things easier for manufacturers and riders alike. I also like my suspension on the active side and hope the 45 does it for me. If not, I'll order another. I'm just glad I can eventually get it dialed thanks to the large range of springs available. Beats the heck out of just having "firm," "medium," & "soft" options.


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

So had my first ride on the Smashpot today. Feels good overall , no problems but I do feel like I should be using more travel. Now granted it was not a fast ride by any means but lots of rocks and a couple 2-3ft jumps / drops I landed fork Heavy purposely. Not sure if 60% or so of travel is normal for this type of riding or not (new to coils) I guess higher speed hits maybe push further into the travel but it feels rock hard. Anyone's thoughts would be appreciated. Lighter spring needed ? Thanks in advance!

Here are the details

6'4 268lb (no gear) +10lbs w/gear 
2018 SantaCruz Hightower 
150mm Fox 36 Fit4 (Smash&Fractive) 
80in lb coil. 
Bottom out all the way open 
Everything was installed @ Vorsprung


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

M320 said:


> So had my first ride on the Smashpot today. Feels good overall , no problems but I do feel like I should be using more travel. Now granted it was not a fast ride by any means but lots of rocks and a couple 2-3ft jumps / drops I landed fork Heavy purposely. Not sure if 60% or so of travel is normal for this type of riding or not (new to coils) I guess higher speed hits maybe push further into the travel but it feels rock hard. Anyone's thoughts would be appreciated. Lighter spring needed ? Thanks in advance!
> 
> Here are the details
> 
> ...


What sag% are you getting?
How much compression damping are you running? 
If it feels too hard, then it probably is. Its going to be a personal preference how hard/plush you like your fork, but the spring weight will impact your sag first and foremost. 
If you're getting 20/30% sag then it's not the spring that's too hard, something else is holding you up in the travel.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

JTmofo said:


> What sag% are you getting?
> How much compression damping are you running?
> If it feels too hard, then it probably is. Its going to be a personal preference how hard/plush you like your fork, but the spring weight will impact your sag first and foremost.
> If you're getting 20/30% sag then it's not the spring that's too hard, something else is holding you up in the travel.
> ...


Just checked sag . Looks like about 18-19% sag ?(28ish mm). 
Both low speed and high speed compression are wide open. 
Fit4 damper has Fractive tune


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

M320 said:


> Just checked sag . Looks like about 18-19% sag ?(28ish mm).
> Both low speed and high speed compression are wide open.
> Fit4 damper has Fractive tune


19% is going to hold you far too high in the travel. 
Lower weight spring for you I reckon.

Double check the spring rates for your travel and weight. If that all looks ok, I'd be checking the installation to make sure everything is as it should be.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

JTmofo said:


> 19% is going to hold you far too high in the travel.
> Lower weight spring for you I reckon.
> 
> Double check the spring rates for your travel and weight. If that all looks ok, I'd be checking the installation to make sure everything is as it should be.
> ...


Kinda my thoughts. Spring rate looks good based on the chart. Everything was install at Vorsprung. I will reach out to them. Thanks.


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

M320 said:


> Kinda my thoughts. Spring rate looks good based on the chart. Everything was install at Vorsprung. I will reach out to them. Thanks.


Ah Steve will sort you out no doubt. 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

Not sure if this will directly answer any questions or not but'










I think I only watched the second one but I think in summary if you are happy with how your fork feels, cut the travel indicator o-ring off haha.

I had trouble getting my Ribbon coil to anywhere near full travel, I'll see how I go with the Smashpot 

I've got a fairly pronounced top out clunk, aside from that fork feels good, has a proper lift access test this weekend


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

So,
Just spent 3 days at lift access trails with the smashpot. 

HOL-E-F*CKING SH1T. 

Fork has blown my mind. 180mm Fox 36 Grip 2, 45LBS spring, no bottom out resistance.
High speed chatter, big rocks, I've never felt anything as smooth in my life. I actually wanted to hit rocks just to feel it. Didn't get full travel, maybe 20mm off, but I'm probably just on a longer fork then I need. 

Steve is sending me a fix for the top out noise


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

@B Rabbit, what is your weight fully geared up? 
Also, did you try decreasing HSC/LSC to be able to use more travel? Not sure if a lighter spring rate is in order or not until you’ve explored this.


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

I’ve got the lighter spring weight and it felt too soft, this (45) feels perfect 
No HSC and I think 3-4 LSC, oh, and 80kgs


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

Anyone have a 65lb spring they aren’t using? I have a 70lb that I feel is a bit too firm.


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

tkblazer said:


> Anyone have a 65lb spring they aren't using? I have a 70lb that I feel is a bit too firm.


I don't have a 65. But curious how much you weigh with the 70lb feeling too stiff?


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

M320 said:


> I don't have a 65. But curious how much you weigh with the 70lb feeling too stiff?


I'm 198 but I ordered the spring for a 209 person since I thought it was for rider weight. Running a pike at 140 hence the heavy spring


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

tkblazer said:


> I'm 198 but I ordered the spring for a 209 person since I thought it was for rider weight. Running a pike at 140 hence the heavy spring


Gotcha thanks. I'm waiting on a 70lb to show up for my 150mm Fox 36. I have a 80lb that is too stiff with me at 265lbs.


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## lagerboy (Sep 26, 2017)

Has anyone tried both the Smashpot and the ACS3 and can offer a comparison?


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## rjwspeedjunkie (Feb 11, 2019)

lagerboy said:


> Has anyone tried both the Smashpot and the ACS3 and can offer a comparison?


I swapped out an ACS3 on a Fox 36 grip 2 160mm for the Smashpot. In terms of the general feel, there is very little in it - as Steve from Vorsprung has said somewhere on this post 'a spring is a spring' - however, my personal perspective is that the longer spring that the Smashpot uses does make it slightly more compliant than the ACS3 throughout the travel

Where the Smashpot does win out is the bottom out damping. The ACS3 pneumatic bottom out works well, but has a couple of small flaws - 1. It needs a pump to adjust on the trail. 2 it is very sensitive to ambient temperature changes due to the low volume of air in the bottom out chamber (I.e. the pressure used is very low already and can go up/down with temperature changes) and 3. The pneumatic bottom out will rebound when compressed as obviously the air being compressed will always try to fight being pushed into a small space.

With the Smashpot the hydraulic damper acts more like a brake slowing the movement in the last part of travel, so in essence it brings the fork to a controlled halt and does not try to rebound. It is also adjustable without the use of tools from very little resistance, which most people seem to favour on this forum, up to very firm, which allows for options as and when you may need.

When all is said and done, I certainly prefer the Smashpot, but when used in isolation, both systems are incredibly good and you would not find fault with either of them. I guess there is any down side to the Smashpot, its slightly heavier than the ACS3, but not so much that it should matter and the Smashpot is a chunk of park tickets money cheaper anyhow 

Hope that helps, sorry it's a bit basic, but honestly the differences can't be explained much more.


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## lagerboy (Sep 26, 2017)

rjwspeedjunkie said:


> I swapped out an ACS3 on a Fox 36 grip 2 160mm for the Smashpot. In terms of the general feel, there is very little in it - as Steve from Vorsprung has said somewhere on this post 'a spring is a spring' - however, my personal perspective is that the longer spring that the Smashpot uses does make it slightly more compliant than the ACS3 throughout the travel
> 
> Where the Smashpot does win out is the bottom out damping. The ACS3 pneumatic bottom out works well, but has a couple of small flaws - 1. It needs a pump to adjust on the trail. 2 it is very sensitive to ambient temperature changes due to the low volume of air in the bottom out chamber (I.e. the pressure used is very low already and can go up/down with temperature changes) and 3. The pneumatic bottom out will rebound when compressed as obviously the air being compressed will always try to fight being pushed into a small space.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's very helpful. Have the ACS and love it but new things are always fun...


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

Somehow my bike was randomly selected Vitalmtb bike of the day today featuring the Smashpot haha.

I've been home sick with the Flu but the bike kept staring at me asking me to take it for a ride so I figure I'd ride to clear my sinuses and lungs up while fine tuning the fork. 45lb spring for my weight (148lbs naked) and 160mm of Travel is spot on for my ride style/abilities/Terrain. I used 158-159mm of travel on a couple bad landings  with 6 clicks of bottomout resistance.










Here's a short 2 minute video of today's ride






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## will 6.6 (Feb 1, 2007)

Just had my 1st ride on the Smashpot. Fox 36 RC2, extended to 170mm, 60lb spring, I weigh 95kg ready to ride. Just fine tuning at the moment, but it is a serious step up from the original fork. You can feel the extra weight, but no detrimental effect when riding, and (for me) definitely worth it. 
Also had my CCDBair CS converted to coil, all work done by TF Tuned, when in for a needed service. Massive thanks to TF Tuned for recommendations and carrying out the work. Really happy with it!


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

bmwzimmer said:


> Somehow my bike was randomly selected Vitalmtb bike of the day today featuring the Smashpot haha.
> 
> I've been home sick with the Flu but the bike kept staring at me asking me to take it for a ride so I figure I'd ride to clear my sinuses and lungs up while fine tuning the fork. 45lb spring for my weight (148lbs naked) and 160mm of Travel is spot on for my ride style/abilities/Terrain. I used 158-159mm of travel on a couple bad landings  with 6 clicks of bottomout resistance.
> 
> ...


very nice! ?


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## blcman (Feb 1, 2007)

will 6.6 said:


> Just had my 1st ride on the Smashpot. Fox 36 RC2, extended to 170mm, 60lb spring, I weigh 95kg ready to ride. Just fine tuning at the moment, but it is a serious step up from the original fork. You can feel the extra weight, but no detrimental effect when riding, and (for me) definitely worth it.
> *Also had my CCDBair CS converted to coil*, all work done by TF Tuned, when in for a needed service. Massive thanks to TF Tuned for recommendations and carrying out the work. Really happy with it!


Hey will 6.6, could you elaborate on this please. I didn't know this was possible. Thanks!


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## will 6.6 (Feb 1, 2007)

Hi, so it was offered as an option by TF Tuned, I was going to get the in-line coil as a new shock, but after chatting to the tech guy, he recommended just converting to coil. A full service and conversion cost £250 (for me), they don’t seem to offer on website, but if you call them they can talk you through it. Again, for me, it was a def improvement over air, with limited runs at the moment. Hope that helps?


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## will 6.6 (Feb 1, 2007)

https://www.tftuned.com


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## will 6.6 (Feb 1, 2007)

Ah, just seem your not in the uk, it’s def possible, maybe ask suspension specialist closer to home, the guys/girls at TF tuned are really helpful though if you want to call them for a chat, highly recommend them.


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

jonshonda said:


> I really don't get the coil hype. From what I understand is that a coil fork is going to feel *very* similar to a properly functioning air fork.


You've got it backwards! At its best, a properly functioning air fork will get close to a coil in feel.

Coil is the gold standard, not the other way around.


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## Condor[ger] (Sep 3, 2005)

Just installed a smashpot into my 160 mm 36 Performance Grip.
I have been running 75 psi with one spacer, 45 lbs/inch is pretty much the same sag-wise. Body weight is 70 kg naked.
I'm using about 130 mm like before which is fine.
Less air pressure (to achieve full travel usage) always felt too soft.


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## jcmonty (Apr 11, 2015)

Has anyone installed this setup on the Lyrik rct3 with charger 2 damper? Have you found that you also need a damper mod in conjunction with the coil conversion ? I am debating whether to add the smash pot at the same time as some damper change (new Lyrik coming out or some 3rd party change), have it revalued , or just change to coil.

The damper side changes would be for softening the compression a bit . 180mm length , ~ 175lb rider weight


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

jcmonty said:


> Has anyone installed this setup on the Lyrik rct3 with charger 2 damper? Have you found that you also need a damper mod in conjunction with the coil conversion ? I am debating whether to add the smash pot at the same time as some damper change (new Lyrik coming out or some 3rd party change), have it revalued , or just change to coil.
> 
> The damper side changes would be for softening the compression a bit . 180mm length , ~ 175lb rider weight


You don´t need it, but you might want it... I would start with the coil conversion only though, it will improve the fork a lot alone.


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

I decided there was no point in giving another report until I had settled on the correct spring. I have, so here is my follow-up. It was a long process. I purchased two springs with the original Smashpot order to "cover my bases" but ended up placing two subsequent orders of two springs each. Yes, for a total of six springs! ...and ended up loving the lightest one. So it was a bit of a hassle, but, as Erotomania said, "well worth it." 

Out of shower weight: 150 lbs/68kg
Fork: Pike 140 w/RCT3 damper
Bike: Evil Following V1 set "extra low"
Spring: 35 lbs/in

Just some random thoughts for those who might be interested:

With no compression damping and hydraulic bottom out wide open, while slowly rolling along, if I throw everything I have into compressing the fork, I can bottom it out with the 35 lb spring. This allowed me to play with the hydraulic bottom out control and really feel how it works. It's amazing. Wound most of the way in, I could no longer bottom the fork--it would stop about 15mm short of bottom out, but not be the least bit harsh. You just hear a little "fart" inside the fork and things instantly decelerate with no harshness. 

I ended up leaving the hydraulic bo adjustment about 10 clicks in (approx halfway) which stops things at about 3mm from bottom out. This is my preference as I need that deceleration to save my aging shoulders more than I need the last 3mm. 

I have added about 4 clicks of LS compression.

I was concerned that I might be constantly using all of the available travel, but it didn't turn out that way at all. I'd get done blowing through a bunch of chunky stuff and expect to have used a lot of travel only to be surprised that I hadn't gone much past the mid-travel range. So I would say that having a spring that you can actually bottom during the right circumstances makes for an amazing early- and mid-travel experience. 

If you are one of those "I don't want things too smooth--I need trail feedback" guys, the Smashpot is NOT for you. It honestly feels like I'm gliding over rock-embedded choppy sections now. I'm 100% satisfied.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Chris2fur said:


> I decided there was no point in giving another report until I had settled on the correct spring. I have, so here is my follow-up. It was a long process. I purchased two springs with the original Smashpot order to "cover my bases" but ended up placing two subsequent orders of two springs each. Yes, for a total of six springs! ...and ended up loving the lightest one. So it was a bit of a hassle, but, as Erotomania said, "well worth it."
> 
> Out of shower weight: 150 lbs/68kg
> Fork: Pike 140 w/RCT3 damper
> ...


I think there going to be a large contingent of people looking to swap springs given yours and other experiences. The spring chart would appear to be quite a bit off (or at least set up for a small amount of really fast riders riding big stuff)judging by reports.


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

robmac48 said:


> I think there going to be a large contingent of people looking to swap springs given yours and other experiences. The spring chart would appear to be quite a bit off (or at least set up for a small amount of really fast riders riding big stuff)judging by reports.


I got pretty Lucky I guess and picked up just 1 Spring and it's perfect!!!

I weigh the same as Chris2fur (150lbs naked) but running a 45lb spring with a 160mm fork which puts me at 20-21% sag. I would consider myself average to slightly above average rider (5 years riding experience) so the spring chart seems to work well for me.

I have a RC2 Lyrik which (like a Grip2 Fox 36) has High Speed Compression adjustments. RC and RCT3 Pikes/Lyrics don't have HSC adjustments but they are dialed from the factory to be similar to the RC2's middle setting (2/4 clicks). With my current spring rate and smashpot bottom out resistance set to 6 clicks, I can decrease HSC to 0 clicks and i will end up with less support and bottom out more frequently. With 2 clicks, i would have more support and only bottom out at those OH **** moments. So I play with my HSC adjustments depending on the trail. I'll open it up on most blue trails to use more available travel and maximum comfort and crank it up (both LSC & HSC) on most Black trails for more support.

@Chris2fur Your setup seems to be tuned towards absolute Plushness and comfort due to your shoulders you mentioned. The issue with such a low spring rate is your fork sag is probably very high (I'm guessing your at 35-40% sag??). This changes the intended riding dynamics of the bike as it's probably intended with 15-25% sag in mind. This Lowers the BB so more pedal strikes (your Evil is already ground scraping), Dynamic HT angles is going to be steeper, and very little midstroke support are a few of the side effects.

Totally up to you but in my opinion, you should consider doing a couple things. Upping your spring rate to 40lbs or 45lbs to get your sag closer to 25%. Since you don't have HSC adjustment, take the fork to a tuner and have them tune down the HSC to allow you to blow through the travel easier or get a RC2 damper upgrade. 
Then lastly, fine tune the bottom out knob of the Smashpot and adjust its shim stacks if necessary. Seems like a lot of work but you already spent all this time and money on it already.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

bmwzimmer said:


> @Chris2fur Your setup seems to be tuned towards absolute Plushness and comfort due to your shoulders you mentioned. The issue with such a low spring rate is your fork sag is probably very high (I'm guessing your at 35-40% sag??). This changes the intended riding dynamics of the bike as it's probably intended with 15-25% sag in mind.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Edit: My response came off a little harsh so I'm going to try again. 
I should have listed the sag as just under 30% in my report. That would have avoided confusion and kept you from jumping to a wild conclusion on the sag level.

However, a more thorough reading of my report on your part--specifically regarding how I was NOT blowing through travel and was getting great mid-stroke support--would have likely led you to conclude that I was nowhere around 40% sag.

I've been riding a while and I'm pretty in tune with my bike. I understand its geometry and would never be able to live with the horrible handling and sketchy descending of a bike with only 140mm of travel staring out 40% into its travel!

I'm pretty familiar with suspension setup in general, but admit I am a newbie when it comes to having a straight coil fork. In other words, a fork that relies only on a coil spring without any air assist. My ending up with a 35 lb spring is purely a result of actual trial and error of many springs. My sag is now right, I'm not blowing through travel, geometry is spot on for my preference and fork performance is phenomenal.


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

Chris2fur said:


> Edit: My response came off a little harsh so I'm going to try again.
> I should have listed the sag as just under 30% in my report. That would have avoided confusion and kept you from jumping to a wild conclusion on the sag level.
> 
> However, a more thorough reading of my report on your part--specifically regarding how I was NOT blowing through travel and was getting great mid-stroke support--would have likely led you to conclude that I was nowhere around 40% sag.
> ...


100%. The "perfect" set up is one that suits the riders needs, not what a book/internet tells you. 
This is why I'm always reluctant to quote any real individual suspension settings.

Personally, I looked at the spring rate chart and sided on the softer side of things. I bought 1 spring, and luckily that was spot on for what I wanted from the fork.

It might be everyone's perfect set up, but it works for me.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

I have found the suggested spring rate from Vorsprung spot on 
I started on the softer spring my for my weight but ended up on the medium.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> I have found the suggested spring rate from Vorsprung spot on
> I started on the softer spring my for my weight but ended up on the medium.


Good to know! I'm hoping to get my fork back from warranty this week or next so will find out pretty quickly if my choice of spring was a good one.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

B Rabbit said:


> I have found the suggested spring rate from Vorsprung spot on
> I started on the softer spring my for my weight but ended up on the medium.


Excellent. Can you summarise your setup again?

More data points help everyone.


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

Sure 

180mm Fox 36 Grip 2 on a Nomad 4
45LBS Spring
80kgs
No HSC
Still tuning LSC
No bottom out resistance 
Had 15-20mm left after 3 lift access days.
Average rider with below average skillz. 
Fork feels amazing 
Had a go on the 40lbs spring, found it too soft.


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

Thanks B Rabbit.

I have a Nomad 4 also and have it set up strickly for park laps(small rear casette,36t front ring, DH tires, Fox DHX2, 180mm Fox, etc.) and weigh about 180lbs (82kg) geared up .

I opted for the 50lb. spring for the Smashpot and now I'm wondering if I should have went with the 45lb. It will be a few months before I'm able to give it a proper smashin.


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

By the sounds of it, I'd say you'll be ok with the 50lb spring, considering your bike is setup primarily for park and more likely to see big hits. 

I personally think customers should get the recommended spring, and one extra in the direction they usually set up their suspension. I was 45lb on the medium chart, but got 40lb spring because I usually side towards a softer setup/air pressure when setting up my previous forks. Would of saved extra freight costs ordering an additional spring at the same time.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Does anyone know the spring rates of the ACS3 Push ? 

I'm using the green spring and its perfect, might help me choose the right spring from Vorsprung.


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

Preston67 said:


> Does anyone know the spring rates of the ACS3 Push ?
> 
> I'm using the green spring and its perfect, might help me choose the right spring from Vorsprung.


Ehm, PUSH maybe?


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

ghostbiker said:


> Ehm, PUSH maybe?


30lb/in (red)
35lb/in (yellow)
40lb/in (orange)
45lb/in (blue)
50lb/in (green)
55lb/in (black)
60lb/in (grey)


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

U da man CharacterZero.


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

So, I've installed my Smashpot and here's the story. 
(Turned out to be a bit long..ish so I hope it will be at least comprehensible.  )

TLDR: Worth it!

Me: ~83kg naked, usually ride with a backpack. Weekend warrior (long way from a pro) but usually hard charging. 160mm Lyrik.

So:
Ordered kit for Lyrik from German distributor. Opted for the "straight in the middle" spring weight - 55 lbs/in. 
Surprise! In the box arrived a package called "Topout Update".
Since no info is given on it in the manual or elsewhere, I shot an email to Steve. He replied really quickly saying basicaly: "the kit should have been installed by the distributor, here is when and how to do it." 
Followed his instructions and had zero issues, all parts and tools required are in the bag.
10/10 for support.

Short description of the top out "issue": when the top out spring is preloaded too much (does not rotate easily -> you need to use some force) then you will change one of the plastic spacers for thinner one, putting less pressure on the spring = less preload.

Installation went without a fuss. 
For those interested, I swapped Dual Position 160mm Lyrik and installed as 160mm. 
Weight before - 2147g
Weight after - 2563g
Everyone is different, but I CANNOT tell the weight difference while riding.
Also, after 3 rides I have yet to notice ANY noise from the fork.

Ride report: 
After the "new and shiny and betterer" feeling wore of, and I began to truly understand the pros and cons, I can say that 55in/lbs spring is STIFF... And I LOVE it. 
The bike was completely transformed by the spring swap. I even began to ride my Topaz in the middle compression setting for downs and no longer keep blowing through the travel (used to be quite the issue for me, even filled with spacers in pos). Normally would have felt harsh and skippy and would not be any good without extra presure in the fork (harsh for hands). Now the bike is really balanced and i FINALLY feel like I can push on the front end and rail turns comfortably. In the 2 years I had this bike I have never felt so comfortable smashing it. Not just the turns, but also jumps, rough, mud, roots, off camber, jump to rough muddy roots in a off camber...
I don't want to make it seem like I still have the pink glasses on, but 1st ride on a trail I have done 150+ times and I had 2nd time overall and 1st this year (mud), while not pushing, just enjoying the **** out of it.
I have done everything in my power to try to make it misbehave, and it was always there for me... If I needed support it was there... Hit a nasty rock in a turn, the fork just eats the rock and continues giving support, it just oozes confidence.
Climbing - it doesn't feel any slower (nor there is any reason for it), even did a PR on a long nasty climb, but no conclusion can come from that, just that it isn't lot worse. If I HAD to say something then "there is no difference, maybe better traction".

Now, not all is purrfect. I run the bottom out all the way out (no/little resistance) but still can't use the last 2-3 cm of travel and sag is more 10%ish than 20... But the thing with this thing is that even when it is really stiff, it is not harsh, and eats the bumps like nothing else. 
I'm a tinkerer, but the feeling I have with the coil spring was not there with air, whatever I tried. If it was stiff and supportive, it did hurt my hands (yes I'm a pus*y) as then the compliance suffered.

Anyway I have ordered 50lbs/in spring hoping that it will keep the support, improve small bump compliance and use more travel (free lunch?).
If I'll use too much travel in the big hits then I still have the bottom out adjuster. But if it will be too soft overall and I'll loose the front end support, then I'll just keep using the 55 and man up trying to get stronger myself.

They say that gear does not makes you better rider, and I normally agree with that, but the way the Smashpot handles is just out of this world compared to anything I've tried before.
I'm now really looking forward to when bike parks finally open around here and I will get the chance to smash this thing into oblivion.

P.S. I will report back when the new spring arrives.

Also, any questions > feel free to ask.









Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

So here is a stupid question. Any other Fox fork smashpot caps not straight when torqued to proper spec. I see the pics on the Rockshox pointed straight. Didn't know if it just mine or all fox caps are sideways. Just a pet peeve I guess


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

Yeah, not sure about this one 

I tightened... ehm "to spec" ehm... and ended up maybe 45° of the target. After a ride a wanted to calm my OCD and took a wrench to it. Wasn't that hard to move it just perfect. Probably even stayed in (around) the spec. But I'm not sure if this was luck or my mad skillz. 

Edit: Nice mudguard 
Well, fork stanchions guard.. as that is the only thing it really protects (but the only thing that matters to me)

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

akantus178 said:


> Yeah, not sure about this one
> 
> I tightened... ehm "to spec" ehm... and ended up maybe 45° of the target. After a ride a wanted to calm my OCD and took a wrench to it. Wasn't that hard to move it just perfect. Probably even stayed in (around) the spec. But I'm not sure if this was luck or my mad skillz.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


Must be your skillz. I'm not even close.

You too


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

M320 said:


> Must be your skillz. I'm not even close. I guess maybe the thread was designed with the RockShox and used on both?


Don't think so as the Fox and Rockshox legs are different diameter, I would say the top caps are NOT compatible. Maybe starting to thread the top cap in, in a bit different position might help?
I could do maybe 120° turn when already tightened, but more than than and I would definitely stop even before the cap could get straight...

This is a hard nut for me to crack, I think I just got lucky... will see when I'll change the springs..

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

akantus178 said:


> Don't think so as the Fox and Rockshox legs are different diameter, I would say the top caps are NOT compatible. Maybe starting to thread the top cap in, in a bit different position might help?
> I could do maybe 120° turn when already tightened, but more than than and I would definitely stop even before the cap could get straight...
> 
> This is a hard nut for me to crack, I think I just got lucky... will see when I'll change the springs..
> ...


I have had it out 3 times and always seems to land in the same spot. I would think it's only going to tread in one spot. Also all the forks may not be threaded from the same starting point. Hummm guess I will have to just stop looking at it while I'm riding


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

Yeah, when the snow melts and you point it down, I'll bet anything you wouldn't know, nor care, which way it's turned.

But would be nice to know if there is a "guide" to aligning it perfectly, for those of us with OCD.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

A threaded cap will end up in the same place every time (dependent on how hard you torque it). Its not possible for Vorsprung to match the rotation of the cap to your threads.

>Me: ~83kg naked,

Based on my experience I think you will really like the 50lb/in spring. 55 is pretty stiff for that weight unless your dropping it like Bender.


>Weight before - 2147g
>Weight after - 2563g

Wow that's a big hit. I don't remember my ACS conversion adding that much weight, more like 250g. The longer spring and hydro bottom out must add up !

It'd be cool if someone started making Ti or SLS style springs for these conversions. That's almost like putting a dual crown fork on the front end !


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

Preston67 said:


> A threaded cap will end up in the same place every time (dependent on how hard you torque it). Its not possible for Vorsprung to match the rotation of the cap to your threads.
> 
> >Me: ~83kg naked,
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input and great to hear about the spring, sounds spot on to my experience so let's see when it arrives...

As for the weight, yeah 400g is around 20% more than stock (DP air, so prolly more than normal) but even if I did try to focus on it, I couldn't discern a difference. The bike is a pig anyway for a trailbike (Stumpy) so maybe that hides something for me, but I will give it gladly for this kind of performance.

ACS vs Smashpot, it's hard to say without back to back testing but 100-200g (pulling out of my ...) probably won't make much difference if 400g's didn't. But it's worth a consideration if you are a weight weenie and straight down is not the only direction you know.
Anyway, for me, tires had much bigger impact to climbing and XC prowess than the fork ever did, and I've already gotten over that with "PEDAL HARDER YOU PUS!" 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## k-addicted (Aug 1, 2011)

Quick question? Did the spring rate recommendation chart change from the original on the website? 

I bought a 50 which was the medium for my weight and travel length. Now I’m seeing 45 as the recommended spring. 
I checked it multiple times before I ordered. 

If true it’s a bummer. I had it installed and it feels really stiff. I’m going to ride it in a few weeks and will know then if I need to buy and install the softer spring.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

k-addicted said:


> Quick question? Did the spring rate recommendation chart change from the original on the website?
> 
> I bought a 50 which was the medium for my weight and travel length. Now I'm seeing 45 as the recommended spring.
> I checked it multiple times before I ordered.
> ...


We revised the spring chart recommendations based on customer feedback (a lot of which has come from this thread) which overall trended towards our recommendations being too firm - our test riders are all aggressive riders with DH and/or enduro racing backgrounds, riding predominantly steep trails in BC and the Alps, and my opinion is that our original recommendations reflected that too heavily. We could have sat here defending our recommendations, but it made more sense to just update them to what riders were telling us they wanted. The updated chart was uploaded today.

In most cases the recommendations have shifted down by 1 spring rate (ie if the previous chart recommended a 50lbs/in as a medium setup for you, it will most likely now say 45). Around the middle of the chart this is about a 10% change - it's not enormous but it's noticeable. It still won't be bang on for everyone and there'll still be people who prefer setups outside the stiff or the soft recommendations we provide - such is the nature of bike setup preferences. If you're not sure, by all means send us an email with some info about how and where you ride and what your preferences typically are, and we can help you work out where on the stiffness spectrum your preferences lie.

It is also worth noting, particularly relevant to akantus178's notes above, that it gives you the option to run it stiffer and shorter travel than with an air spring without the harshness. This means you can get away with a firmer, more lively, shorter travel bike or simply not frequently use all the travel on a longer travel bike, which isn't inherently a problem if you actually like the way the thing rides. Alternatively, you can soften it up and have more of a monster truck feel.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

My intention was to put the coil into a Fox 36 at 160/170mm travel but as Santa Cruz are messing around and not releasing the bike yet I thought I'd try it at 140 travel on my hardtail (plus I was thinking I may be oversprung after reading the previous posters)

2018 Fox 36 FIT4 with fractive tuning and 140mm travel
LSC 7 out
Comp mid setting
Reb 7 out (I think)
60lbs spring

Simply fantastic. I did a quick loop today to get a feel for them and came away very impressed.

Very little to no stiction to get these forks moving. I did a side by side comparison with the DVO Beryl that I had on the HT (which I liked) and the force to get them moving is much less on the coil (obviously with less seals etc).

Trail chatter is muted but there is still heaps of feel of what the front is doing. Hitting one rock garden which is about 30m long the coil shone. I've been running more and more air pressure in the Beryl to stop bottoming out, the coil just monstered through the lot, sucking up the three big hits and recovering quickly for the myriad of rumble type rocks and roots in between. 

I used all but about 20mm of travel (bottom out was set 7 out from fully closed) and the coil was silent at all times.

Given the speed I took the rocks today on the hardtail I'm quietly confident the 60lb spring should be good for me when I extend the fork on the big bike enabling me to back out the bottoming resistance further.

Only one quick ride but damn it felt good!


----------



## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

Ready to pull the trigger on a coil kit and thought my mind was made up on the Push ACS3 then I found this thread yesterday afternoon. 

Has the top out clunk been solved for everyone at this point? Any clunk at all at full extension will drive me insane. Even if it is just a little it is a no go for me.


----------



## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

After a quick call to Vorsprung yesterday, it sounds like the chassis doesn't matter - both Rockshox & Fox chassis are more or less equal, just choose the chassis that is right for you.

In addition to what is achieved with the Smashpot w/ bottom out control, you can have them custom tune EITHER fork - V-Spec tunes for Rockshox or Fractive tunes for Fox, which wasn't hugely obvious from the site menus.

Are there real differences in the stock dampers between Fox/RS that allow for the smashpot to excel in either the Fox or the Rockshox body instead of the other? 
Fox FIT GRIP2: HSC/LSC/HSR/LSR
Fox FIT4: LSC/3-position/LSR (assuming HSR shimmed)
Rockshox RCT3 Charger 2: LSC/3-position (is this threshold based or HSC equivalent?) / LSR (assuming HSR is shimmed)

Looks like the Fox offers a lot more adjustment for tuning if the above is correct.


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

rynomx785 said:


> Ready to pull the trigger on a coil kit and thought my mind was made up on the Push ACS3 then I found this thread yesterday afternoon.
> 
> Has the top out clunk been solved for everyone at this point? Any clunk at all at full extension will drive me insane. Even if it is just a little it is a no go for me.


Its fixed , go for it


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

rynomx785 said:


> Ready to pull the trigger on a coil kit and thought my mind was made up on the Push ACS3 then I found this thread yesterday afternoon.
> 
> Has the top out clunk been solved for everyone at this point? Any clunk at all at full extension will drive me insane. Even if it is just a little it is a no go for me.


No issues at all on mine.


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## askibum02 (Jul 7, 2005)

I know this has been asked, but I think my situation is different. I’m looking at a bike with a 140mm 29/27.5+ Pike RC. I’m about 250 in my birthday suit, would I be better off with this coil or a custom Avy tune? My last fork was a ‘17 Fox 36 Factory. With additional negative air chamber small bump compliance was still lacking. Beyond that I loved it


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

askibum02 said:


> I know this has been asked, but I think my situation is different. I'm looking at a bike with a 140mm 29/27.5+ Pike RC. I'm about 250 in my birthday suit, would I be better off with this coil or a custom Avy tune? My last fork was a '17 Fox 36 Factory. With additional negative air chamber small bump compliance was still lacking. Beyond that I loved it


I'm 6'3 & 265lb. I only have a couple rides so far. But my Fox 36 with coil and Fractive tune has been amazing. I have never had a fork with small bump compliance (Pike , DVO Topaz, Fox 36) until now. I was considering the AV option also. I'm so glad I went with a coil. My first time riding a coil and I'm impressed. Air is not very Fat kid friendly. In my opinion.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

CharacterZero said:


> After a quick call to Vorsprung yesterday, it sounds like the chassis doesn't matter - both Rockshox & Fox chassis are more or less equal, just choose the chassis that is right for you.
> 
> In addition to what is achieved with the Smashpot w/ bottom out control, you can have them custom tune EITHER fork - V-Spec tunes for Rockshox or Fractive tunes for Fox, which wasn't hugely obvious from the site menus.
> 
> ...


Given the choice I would prefer a Fox damper, it has much better compression damping control than the RS. Charger dampers are slightly lacking in support and HSC. The FIT4 with a fractive tune is great because its pre-set for you and cuts down the number of adjustments to mess up. Grip2 is a great damper and can perform equally as good as a custom tuned Fractive fork but is a bit tricky to set correctly.

HSR is shimmed on all of them, the 3-position on the Charger 2 works as a pedal mode that closes the LSC plus a climb mode that makes it much stiffer


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## k-addicted (Aug 1, 2011)

Some people earlier in this thread mentioned an interest in selling, buying or swapping springs. 

I installed a 50 on my 170mm Fox 36. I haven’t ridden it yet but with my compression settings wide open, no bottom out restistance on the spring side and the front brake engaged at 180 lbs. I can’t get it to compress more than 2/3 of the travel. It definitely feels like butter off the top. I’m reserving my final opinion for after a few rides but I’m almost certain I’ll need a 45 pound spring. 

Let me know if you want to offload a 45 pound spring or potentially swap a 45 for a 50?


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

I’ve only had one ride with a softer spring 60lb vs the 70lb before, but I was not able to use the last 20-30mm travel. There wasn’t really anything on that ride that needed to use the travel since I was just out riding easy stuff with my gf. I think after a few more rides and maybe switching to a 65lb spring, I might soften the bottom out damper so it’s actually functional and not just wide open


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

JohnnyC7 said:


> the RS. Charger dampers are slightly lacking in support


the spring is what holds you up, pull the tokens and add a little bit more pressure .


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Given the choice I would prefer a Fox damper, it has much better compression damping control than the RS. Charger dampers are slightly lacking in support and HSC. The FIT4 with a fractive tune is great because its pre-set for you and cuts down the number of adjustments to mess up. Grip2 is a great damper and can perform equally as good as a custom tuned Fractive fork but is a bit tricky to set correctly.
> 
> HSR is shimmed on all of them, the 3-position on the Charger 2 works as a pedal mode that closes the LSC plus a climb mode that makes it much stiffer


Thanks much for taking the time to respond and break it down! Thanks for hashing out the differences.
I've ridden custom tuned shocks/forks before and agree, they're the best starting point. I know I can get a Grip2 to get close (in theory) so I might start there. 
I am not sure I want to go the Fractive route yet...if I go custom damper with a coil, I'd probably have a single shop knock out valving on both so that it is balanced (again in theory).


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

louf said:


> the spring is what holds you up, pull the tokens and add a little bit more pressure .


That is only true in steady state situation and there isn´t too many of them in MTB.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

ghostbiker said:


> That is only true in steady state situation and there isn´t too many of them in MTB.


Yes, but have you tried no tokens yet? Worth testing.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ghostbiker said:


> That is only true in steady state situation and there isn´t too many of them in MTB.


Yeah it's complex. The best description is "the spring carries the load and dictates the natural frequency, the damper controls the motion of the sprung and unsprung mass".

The big complication with bike suspension (compared to say automotive or motorbike) is the dominant mass has an additional set of springs and dampers connecting it to the ground. Those are you arms and legs.


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## ghostbiker (Oct 24, 2018)

louf said:


> Yes, but have you tried no tokens yet? Worth testing.


This works only if you have well designed air spring in the first place, both fox and RS didn´t have this before 2019 model year, the last stuff is supposedly pretty good but I would still prefer adjustable neg. pressure not auto equalizing ports.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

ghostbiker said:


> This works only if you have well designed air spring in the first place, both fox and RS didn´t have this before 2019 model year, the last stuff is supposedly pretty good but I would still prefer adjustable neg. pressure not auto equalizing ports.


but have you tried it, I did and it was better with the tokens.. while all my mates found there older forks better with the tokens removed. trial and error 🤷*♂


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## Eluiso (Nov 7, 2007)

@Steve VS:

I would like to upgrade my RockShox Yari with your smashpot coil kit. One quick question:

My bike spends every evening and the entire winter season hanged from the front wheel, facing upwards. Should I have any precautions either with the top up spring or the oil in the bottom out mechanism when I hang my bike?

Thanks in advance,

Eluiso


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## kwapik (Mar 1, 2016)

Eluiso said:


> @Steve VS:
> 
> I would like to upgrade my RockShox Yari with your smashpot coil kit. One quick question:
> 
> ...


So which coil kit are you purchasing...Push? or Vorsprung?


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Installed the Smashpot Coil kit for my Fox 36 today. Only workshop floor riding, since the snow is covering the trails. The spring rate is 75 and my first impression is that it feels a lot similar in support as my 105 psi air spring before. Measured 20-21% sag. 

So exited to find out if this is to firm spring for me or if I need to change for a 70 spring that I ordered just in case.

Is there anyone out there experiencing different settings for the Smashpot coil vs air spring? Might seems possible to use less LSC and perhaps HSC setting. A bit concerned if it is enough rebound damping available in my original Grip 2 damper?


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## Eluiso (Nov 7, 2007)

kwapik said:


> So which coil kit are you purchasing...Push? or Vorsprung?


I am still undecided, the bike is nearly new (Kona Process G2), Probably when the first maintenance on the fork is due, then I might buy the tools, buy the kit, do maintenance and swap spring. I have no experience on fork maintenance.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Anyone tried the smashpot on the fit-grip dampner yet? Like the 36 rythym or Marzocchi Z1. 

I’m very close to hitting the “buy now” trigger. I am 105kg so I’m after that holy grail of soft off the top but a supportive enough midstroke to preserve geometry. 

Cheers.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

kwapik said:


> So which coil kit are you purchasing...Push? or Vorsprung?


For me it was an easy decision, since I was not interested in carry a pressure pump any more. With Push you need to adjust air pressure, and for me riding in spring and autumn with under freezing temperature in the morning and a lot warmer for the afternoon ride after work, it is a pain to adjust the air pressure. Small chamber and/or high pressure changes a lot.

Hydraulic bottom out control like the Vorsprung Smashpot, does absorb energy, the air bumper needs to get energy from the air bumper, handled by the damper unit of the fork.

Now I have hydraulic bottom out control in my fork and in my EXT Storia V3 LOK rear shock.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

brash said:


> Anyone tried the smashpot on the fit-grip dampner yet? Like the 36 rythym or Marzocchi Z1.
> 
> I'm very close to hitting the "buy now" trigger. I am 105kg so I'm after that holy grail of soft off the top but a supportive enough midstroke to preserve geometry.
> 
> Cheers.


I am 112kg and I am sure the support from 75 spring is supportiv enough for sure. I think I will be alle to to lower on LSC then my previous 105psi air spring setup. Still not tested on trail. Waiting for snow to go away.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Every advantage seems to be with the Vorsprung except weight. From what I can tell its about 150g heavier than the Push solution.


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## noot (Jul 7, 2008)

Quick question for anyone who's ordered a 2nd spring - does it come with heat shrink?


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

noot said:


> Quick question for anyone who's ordered a 2nd spring - does it come with heat shrink?


Yes.


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## zerolight (Sep 8, 2010)

Folks, should I upgrade my Pike RC with a Smashpot, or buy and keep stock, a Fox 36 Performance Elite 3 Pos? What's my best bet?


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## Heiril (Nov 2, 2015)

zerolight said:


> Folks, should I upgrade my Pike RC with a Smashpot, or buy and keep stock, a Fox 36 Performance Elite 3 Pos? What's my best bet?


Upgrade. Simply changing the stock air spring to coil made the huge elusive difference I been looking for.

Am not on Smashpot, but on the Push, but Steve's wizardry should be awesome as always.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Dr.Flow (Jul 6, 2011)

Steve VS said:


> We revised the spring chart recommendations based on customer feedback (a lot of which has come from this thread) which overall trended towards our recommendations being too firm - our test riders are all aggressive riders with DH and/or enduro racing backgrounds, riding predominantly steep trails in BC and the Alps, and my opinion is that our original recommendations reflected that too heavily. We could have sat here defending our recommendations, but it made more sense to just update them to what riders were telling us they wanted. The updated chart was uploaded today.
> 
> In most cases the recommendations have shifted down by 1 spring rate (ie if the previous chart recommended a 50lbs/in as a medium setup for you, it will most likely now say 45). Around the middle of the chart this is about a 10% change - it's not enormous but it's noticeable. It still won't be bang on for everyone and there'll still be people who prefer setups outside the stiff or the soft recommendations we provide - such is the nature of bike setup preferences. If you're not sure, by all means send us an email with some info about how and where you ride and what your preferences typically are, and we can help you work out where on the stiffness spectrum your preferences lie.
> 
> It is also worth noting, particularly relevant to akantus178's notes above, that it gives you the option to run it stiffer and shorter travel than with an air spring without the harshness. This means you can get away with a firmer, more lively, shorter travel bike or simply not frequently use all the travel on a longer travel bike, which isn't inherently a problem if you actually like the way the thing rides. Alternatively, you can soften it up and have more of a monster truck feel.


Guess I'm one of the few in line with the pre-release test riders. I'm at 65 kg at the moment with a 10 year long dh background. The Smashpot went into a '19 36 GRIP2 set to 170 mm that I ran at 72 psi with 2 orange tokens and 7 clicks of HSC and 7 clicks of LSC from closed. I ordered the kit with the 45 lbs/in spring rate. The bottom out control is set to min. 
The fork is on a '16 Reign with a -1.5° headset. Most of the time I ride steep tech terrain, but I also like to hit some jumps. When riding steep tech trails I use <150 mm of travel. Ride height and geometry is preserved just the way I like it.

But l was able to use all of the travel when overshooting a double into a g-out on a ride recently. The bottom out was not noticeable, just saw it when returning home and seeing the o-ring and the dust residue ring at the top of the stanchions.

Just my 0.02 $.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

zerolight said:


> Folks, should I upgrade my Pike RC with a Smashpot, or buy and keep stock, a Fox 36 Performance Elite 3 Pos? What's my best bet?


 pike with the coil spring for sure, I would still recommend upgrading the damper and spring of a 3-pos fork anyway


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Dr.Flow said:


> But l was able to use all of the travel when overshooting a double into a g-out on a ride recently. The bottom out was not noticeable, just saw it when returning home and seeing the o-ring and the dust residue ring at the top of the stanchions.


Um, if you don't expect to use all of your travel when overshooting a double into a g-out, exactly when do you expect to use all of your travel?


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

Finally got to hit some fun trails in the laguna beach area since they were closed due to rain. I definitely need to stick with the recommended spring on the original chart as the current one is too soft for the steep and chunky trails. Currently 90kg and am currently running a 60lb spring on a 140 pike. Will be bumping up to a 65lb, but the funny thing is I still managed to pr one of the trails despite having to pause twice due to nearly crashing


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## laserjockrock (Jun 22, 2015)

Subscribed!
Upgrading my v1 Following/Pike w/ an ACS-3 was such a revelation... was looking to do the same w/ my new Ripmo/36. But the guys at the local suspension shop (DirtLabs) were raving about the Smashpot, so I had to take a look.

Talking to them I didn't follow, but after reading this thread I think I might be getting the point. I'm kinda a suspension-tweaker noob, so can someone please let me know if I'm getting the point:

In the ACS-3, the bottom-out is actually another spring (pneumatic). Thus, it's force ramps up (exponentially-vs-displacement) to slow you down, but... it's a *spring* which means it's going to push all that force back on your arms. 

And maybe, if it's saving your a$$ after a big G-out, etc, this isn't the best for your arms, which could be at their limit.

However, the Smashpot (hydraulic) bottom-out section acts as a damper (which is *not* a spring), and thus is designed to actually reduce speed (of fork displacement) by taking the energy away. (I guess through internal friction of liquid?) Thus, the only thing that's going to push the shock back out (and thus extra force on your arms) is the compressed coil itself (which is linear vs. the exponential ACS hairspring?). 

So the bottom line is potentially two things:

First that in the oh-**** moments, this equates to less force being put on your arms - reducing the chance of overloading, thus failure?

Second, this (hydraulic) approach gives possibility of it being "speed-sensitive"... thus, if you're slowly crawling over some tech rocks, it can allow itself to *not* activate (get out of the way) so you can use more of your spring travel. But when it's a fast compression (G-out, etc) it can kick-in to slowly prevent bottom-out?)

Do I have this right? 

If so, then the extra 0.5lbs heavier than the ACS-3 seems worth it to me.


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## laserjockrock (Jun 22, 2015)

bmwzimmer said:


> Somehow my bike was randomly selected Vitalmtb bike of the day today featuring the Smashpot haha.


That's the bright at Hall ranch! ? Also recognized a few other local trails in the vid. Thx for representing and making the Front Range look good!


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

I think you got it right? For me it was a lot more easy decision, since I was looking at a system without air. I was tired of checking air pressure in different temperatures during the day (riding before and after work). The small air chamber of the ASC system is even more vulnerable of change in pressure due to temperature raise or drop. Another thing was the price and the option of spring rates in my weight class of 255 lbs. I might be on thin ice here, but due to the energy kick back from the Air system of ASC you might need to tune the rebound on the damper side? The Smashpot will not kick back and you should get away with the original damper set up.



laserjockrock said:


> Subscribed!
> Upgrading my v1 Following/Pike w/ an ACS-3 was such a revelation... was looking to do the same w/ my new Ripmo/36. But the guys at the local suspension shop (DirtLabs) were raving about the Smashpot, so I had to take a look.
> 
> Talking to them I didn't follow, but after reading this thread I think I might be getting the point. I'm kinda a suspension-tweaker noob, so can someone please let me know if I'm getting the point:
> ...


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

And I thought Avalanche was the only option for my Lyrik RCT3 SoloAir. Now I'm confused. Which would be the better option? I don't have HSC on my Lyrik. Would I need it if I went Smashpot? Can I do both? lol


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## javigutz (Aug 10, 2011)

Question:

Can I preload (for fine tunning) the spring on the smashpot?


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

javigutz said:


> Question:
> 
> Can I preload (for fine tunning) the spring on the smashpot?


You have to preload the top spring cap so 8-10mm of thread is showing. Too much preload may cause a knock on top out as some with lyriks have found out. If your spring is too light, buy the correct one as it makes a big difference in ride quality. Preloading only effects the initial travel and does not change the actual spring rate


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## Dr.Flow (Jul 6, 2011)

javigutz said:


> Question:
> 
> Can I preload (for fine tunning) the spring on the smashpot?


Yes, you can. There are small spacers included like in the old coil Boxxers that go on top of the spring.


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## ek33 (Apr 4, 2011)

Does anyone want to trade my 60 lb/in spring for your 50 lb/in?


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

First ride today. Awesome bit of kit should probably have gine for a 55 over the 50 I got, but setting it to 160 should sort front to back balance 👌🏻


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

louf said:


> First ride today. Awesome bit of kit should probably have gine for a 55 over the 50 I got, but setting it to 160 should sort front to back balance


Yeah, I said that my 55 feels stiff, but after riding it for longer time it is actually spot in. It has support AND compliance, I can bottom out BUT not all the time. 
I will probably not change at the moment. Happy as it is, the grip is insane.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

Could you guys mention your fork travel and ride weight?


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

Scottyman said:


> Could you guys mention your fork travel and ride weight?


My life story is not so far up the thread, but 160mm Lyric and 85kg + bag.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## ek33 (Apr 4, 2011)

I weigh 82 kg (180 lb) and the sag is only 16% with a 55 lb spring in a 150mm Fox 36. It is definitely plusher than air but I feel it could be better based on what everyone is saying. Should I try a 50 or 45 lb spring?


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

Thanks guys. Still trying to decide between this and the ACS3. '16 Lyrik/Devinci Troy Carbon with CC DB coil.


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

Scottyman said:


> Thanks guys. Still trying to decide between this and the ACS3. '16 Lyrik/Devinci Troy Carbon with CC DB coil.


Can help about ACS3 but I love my Smashpot.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Scottyman said:


> Thanks guys. Still trying to decide between this and the ACS3. '16 Lyrik/Devinci Troy Carbon with CC DB coil.


Had both, now only have the Smashpot. Quiet, stiction free, hydraulic bottom out is perfect and coil goodness.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

akantus178 said:


> So, I've installed my Smashpot and here's the story.
> (Turned out to be a bit long..ish so I hope it will be at least comprehensible.  )
> 
> TLDR: Worth it!
> ...


I have a question. Does this system have negative travel? The first Marzocchi Z series calculated neg travel into overall travel. IE, 105mm's of travel, with 5mm being neg travel for the down stroke spring.


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## Condor[ger] (Sep 3, 2005)

Has anyone felt the need to reshim the highspeed rebound after switching to a smashpot?
My bodyweight is ~70 kg and i'm on a 36 performance grip 160 mm. (45 lbs spring)
Right now i'm riding with 14 clicks from fully closed and it still feels kinda slow. (usually i prefer to ride with slower rebound)
My theory is that the grip highspeed rebound is shimmed for a progressive curve.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Condor[ger] said:


> Has anyone felt the need to reshim the highspeed rebound after switching to a smashpot?
> My bodyweight is ~70 kg and i'm on a 36 performance grip 160 mm. (45 lbs spring)
> Right now i'm riding with 14 clicks from fully closed and it still feels kinda slow. (usually i prefer to ride with slower rebound)
> My theory is that the grip highspeed rebound is shimmed for a progressive curve.


open it up try it faster see how it goes.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Scottyman said:


> Could you guys mention your fork travel and ride weight?


150mm/ 50lb/ 77kg I think

raced on it today, badly, need compression open on rough sticky ground.


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## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

has anyone upgraded a fox factory 36 (170mm) with the smashpot?

if so, was it worth it?


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

onawave said:


> has anyone upgraded a fox factory 36 (170mm) with the smashpot?
> 
> if so, was it worth it?


I've coiled a 160mm Fox Factory Grip2. It's an excellent mod.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

I’m looking to trade my 65lb spring for a 60lb spring if anyone is interested.


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## ek33 (Apr 4, 2011)

M320 said:


> I'm looking to trade my 65lb spring for a 60lb spring if anyone is interested.


You can have mine for free! Just cover shipping from 91360. Does anyone have a 45 or 50 lb spring they're willing to part with? ?


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

ek33 said:


> You can have mine for free! Just cover shipping from 91360. Does anyone have a 45 or 50 lb spring they're willing to part with?


Sweet !!! I sent you a PM. Thanks.


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

M320 said:


> Sweet !!! I sent you a PM. Thanks.


Spring rate still too stiff? I softened the damper on the hbo one shim but i think i may do another shim next time i have my fork apart. Ive been riding with the bottom out all the way open and still have about 10-15mm of travel left which i feel is fine.


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

tkblazer said:


> Spring rate still too stiff? I softened the damper on the hbo one shim but i think i may do another shim next time i have my fork apart. Ive been riding with the bottom out all the way open and still have about 10-15mm of travel left which i feel is fine.


It feels great off the top, bigger hits and drops are great too. but still a bit harsh on fast sections with small bumps. I'm only sagging at 20% and using about 85% travel trying to bottom out with everything still wide open. I'm getting close though. I think the 60lb spring may be the meal ticket. Don't really care about "full travel" but I would like the mid travel to feel a bit softer as that is where I sit most of the ride it seems.


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

I will be interested in seeing how it rides after the lighter spring. I tried a lighter spring, but it was way too harsh on the hands and arms and was riding too deep in the travel.


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

tkblazer said:


> I will be interested in seeing how it rides after the lighter spring. I tried a lighter spring, but it was way too harsh on the hands and arms and was riding too deep in the travel.


At first I thought that may be what I was dealing with , but with everything still open I'm going to try a little lighter spring and see how it goes.

How much sag are you running ?


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

M320 said:


> At first I thought that may be what I was dealing with , but with everything still open I'm going to try a little lighter spring and see how it goes.
> 
> How much sag are you running ?


Not much, maybe 15ish %. I'm running a 140mm pike so I like to keep the front end a bit higher into the travel. It is still way more active then the crappy stock air spring setup. I'm impatiently waiting for push to announce their new charger 2 damper mod to finally have a fully tunable fork


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## ek33 (Apr 4, 2011)

tkblazer said:


> Not much, maybe 15ish %. I'm running a 140mm pike so I like to keep the front end a bit higher into the travel. It is still way more active then the crappy stock air spring setup. I'm impatiently waiting for push to announce their new charger 2 damper mod to finally have a fully tunable fork


Yeah, I'm running 16% sag and can't determine if it's the sweet spot or could be improved with a softer spring. Like M320, I'm looking to calm down the fast chatter bumps.


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## badIuck (Nov 24, 2015)

Just found this thread. I installed the Smashpot into my Lyrik and am experiencing the top out noise. What is the fix? Can I turn-mill down one of the spacers? Whch one and by how much? I probably don't want to wait for a part from Vorsprung since I am based in Germany and would like to ride this weekend. I guess it can't be that hard to fix 

Thanks,
Tim


EDIT: Steve replied to me insanely fast and supplied me with everything he could via mail. The German distributor seems to be sorted out with the required modified topout spring spacer. Looking forward to trying out a coil fork after a long and troublesome time on air forks.


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## ButtersNZ (Jan 15, 2014)

Question: I have a 2017 Factory Fox 36 FIT4, running at 180mm. Does anyone have feedback on the Smashpot with the FIT4 on this older style of 36? It's not Grip2, no Fractive tune etc..


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

ek33 said:


> Yeah, I'm running 16% sag and can't determine if it's the sweet spot or could be improved with a softer spring. Like M320, I'm looking to calm down the fast chatter bumps.


Go with the next lower spring. The coil performance is so superior to an air spring that even when the spring rate is not ideal, you will be tempted to just stick with it. The thing is, unless you get to the real sweet spot, you won't realize how much better it can get.


----------



## k-addicted (Aug 1, 2011)

Does anyone have a 45 Spring they want to sell or trade for a 50 spring?


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Anyone with a bit heavier spring/ rider weight trying different springs? I am at 255 lbs and rides with a 75 lbs spring. I can go down on HSC and LSC on the Grip 2, I am using about as much travel that I am used to, from my air set up. I am not so worried about use of travel, since I am more obsessed with ride feel. I am in opposite of worried about using all travel, actually more happy, since I have more to go on, for the higher speed, tougher and harder trails. Also not happy with a fork that dives too much either, since big weight shifts in front of the bike is not something I want. That is why I am asking, if someone have tried to go down from 75 to 70 lbs spring, and if so, what have been the experience of compression settings and ride feel?


----------



## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Anyone with a bit heavier spring/ rider weight trying different springs? I am at 255 lbs and rides with a 75 lbs spring. I can go down on HSC and LSC on the Grip 2, I am using about as much travel that I am used to, from my air set up. I am not so worried about use of travel, since I am more obsessed with ride feel. I am in opposite of worried about using all travel, actually more happy, since I have more to go on, for the higher speed, tougher and harder trails. Also not happy with a fork that dives too much either, since big weight shifts in front of the bike is not something I want. That is why I am asking, if someone have tried to go down from 75 to 70 lbs spring, and if so, what have been the experience of compression settings and ride feel?


What travel fork ?


----------



## ek33 (Apr 4, 2011)

k-addicted said:


> Does anyone have a 45 Spring they want to sell or trade for a 50 spring?


PM sent


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

M320 said:


> What travel fork ?


 160mm on a Sentinel.


----------



## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

had my first run on this bad boi today. man - talk about being plush.

will never go back to an air fork again.


----------



## noot (Jul 7, 2008)

I'll likely have a 70lb spring up for grabs in a bit here, just need a test ride on the 60 I replaced it with.

PM me if you're interested.


----------



## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

I have a 70 lb spring that i will never use again if you are interest


----------



## springs (May 20, 2017)

Wondering if anyone has a 55lb spring that they would like to move?


----------



## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Did the Vorsprung smashpot conversion to the Rhythm. All I can say is WOW! What a transformation. It feels spookily like my Fox40 now. Grip is increased massively, midstroke support much greater and the little bumps are all but gone.

I went with a 55lb spring as per the chart recommendations, this netted 26% sag, out of the 170mm I used 160, without any compression damping or use of the hydraulic bottom out adjuster (both open) so plenty of room for when I head to some real tracks.

I highly recommend it, installation is way easier than it looks in the instructions. It took longer to get the air shaft out of the fork than to put the spring assembly in. About a 3/10 on the difficulty meter. If you can drop your fork lowers this should be no issue.


----------



## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

your pics are not showing


----------



## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Charlo489 said:


> your pics are not showing


strange, I can see them. I'll try another uploader.... how's this?


----------



## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Nope.


----------



## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

mykel said:


> Nope.


I can see both sets of photos.


----------



## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

brash said:


> strange, I can see them. I'll try another uploader.... how's this?


I can't see either upload attempt, but can follow the links in my thread update email. Upload directly from your hard drive instead of using Imagur. Those pics are definitely worth uploading.

Edit: Freaky. As soon as I posted that I could not see them, there they were.


----------



## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

Still nope.
Alternate browser - nope
Different VPN end-point - nope
No VPN - nope.
Flushed DNS resolver cache - nope.
Alternate computer - nope.
Reset connection with new IP address - nope.

ya got me.


----------



## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

mykel said:


> Still nope.
> Alternate browser - nope
> Different VPN end-point - nope
> No VPN - nope.
> ...


haha got me beat.

if this doesn't work I give up






https://i.imgur.com/OL537eZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NMODoUu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4Wtx3Kt.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6UViVpF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/u8XhxmP.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Gujd1bu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zQf6idR.jpg


----------



## Paradan09 (Mar 26, 2019)

brash said:


> haha got me beat.
> 
> if this doesn't work I give up
> 
> ...


The video works, the pics still do not - same as in the Stumpy Evo thread.


----------



## evildos (Aug 17, 2015)

If you can't display the pictures, try to remove the 's' in 'https'

Worked for me


----------



## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

What size is the black heat shrink? Going to change the fork from 150-160. 
Ta


----------



## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

louf said:


> What size is the black heat shrink? Going to change the fork from 150-160.
> Ta


According to Steve - it's 3/4" 2:1 singlewall polyolefin heat shrink.



Steve VS said:


> You'll need to pull the cartridge out entirely and partly disassemble - add/subtract main spring spacers and respectively subtract/add topout spacers. You'll also want to reapply the heat shrink on the cartridge tube when you do it because you'll need to cut it to remove the sealhead - we sell spare lengths of the heat shrink on the web store for anyone who wants to throw it in with their order, but for anyone curious or wanting to buy from their local auto/electrical supplier (eg Lordco) it's 3/4" 2:1 singlewall polyolefin heat shrink.


----------



## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

ben_mtb said:


> According to Steve - it's 3/4" 2:1 singlewall polyolefin heat shrink.


 grand have loads of that.


----------



## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

I have two rides now on the 60lb spring and I truly believe this is the correct spring size for me. 
I'm using about 80-90% travel on both rides. Small bump and fast sections feel good, small - medium drops/jumps feel great. Only issue I have found is on slow speed rock garden the fork does get hung up on some square edge rock and go a bit deep into the travel (couple scary moments). I hope to help this a bit by adjusting the damper. (Not sure high speed or low). Still getting some top out noise when pulling up hard and popping off rocks and logs. But I will play with the preload and I'm sure I can correct that. Overall this is a fantastic product and definitely one of the best upgrades I have made.

Specs

2018 SantaCruz Hightower 
150mm Fox 36 performance Elite w/Fractive tune

Height - 6'4 
Weight - 260lbs

Big Thanks to EK33 for the 60lb spring.


----------



## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

M320 said:


> Only issue I have found is on slow speed rock garden the fork does get hung up on some square edge rock and go a bit deep into the travel (couple scary moments). I hope to help this a bit by adjusting the damper. (Not sure high speed or low).


Sounds like your HSR damping is too much, letting the fork ride lower into the travel than it should.


----------



## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

CharacterZero said:


> Sounds like your HSR damping is too much, letting the fork ride lower into the travel than it should.


That very well could be . I have not adjusted it after switching to the lighter spring. I will give it a shot. Thanks.


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## ek33 (Apr 4, 2011)

Glad the spring worked out for you, M320!

Anyone have a 50 lb spring they don’t need?


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Condor[ger] said:


> Has anyone felt the need to reshim the highspeed rebound after switching to a smashpot?
> My bodyweight is ~70 kg and i'm on a 36 performance grip 160 mm. (45 lbs spring)
> Right now i'm riding with 14 clicks from fully closed and it still feels kinda slow. (usually i prefer to ride with slower rebound)
> My theory is that the grip highspeed rebound is shimmed for a progressive curve.


I am on a Fox 36 Grip 2 with a 75 lbs spring and uses half HSC and LSC when charging the hardest. I have not so much experience with testing HBO control vs compression damping, have used 5 out from closed. 
I think if you are using high compression damping you might get better setup to get on a firmer spring and go down on damping? But people are riding completely different set up on completely same trails at similar speed and style too. So it is a personal choice. 
I am honestly a bit surprised by the similarity of the coil set up to the air set up, and I suspect it is because it gets "colored" by the damper, and the HBO control. 
So for the hardest charging I am probably indifferent between air/coil. The coil are probably hugging ground better? 
When I turn off the compression and rides slower more forgiving trails, but with a lot of small roots and rocks, it pays off with much more compliance. 
The thing is that I thought it was taking both, in the same set up, and that I did not needed to have more HSC and LSC??
Will try to turn on the HBO and off with HSC and LSC?


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

I am 115kg riding weight and use 75lbs spring. HBO 5 out from closed. Compression depends on terrain, from 1/4 from open to mid position, both high and low speed. Rebound 2 from closed on high and 5 +/- 1 on low.


----------



## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I am 115kg riding weight and use 75lbs spring. HBO 5 out from closed. Compression depends on terrain, from 1/4 from open to mid position, both high and low speed. Rebound 2 from closed on high and 5 +/- 1 on low.


try running the damper much faster and set the HBO at 10. try rebound a few clicks from open.


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

louf said:


> try running the damper much faster and set the HBO at 10. try rebound a few clicks from open.


I have tried the HBO at 10 and it bottom out. I have not any luck running higher rebound speed, since the fork is and front end get nervous and changes direction in turns. So fast turns with bumps will then end up with with hitting the second totally wrong. But I will try to see what happens, just for fun. Also I feel that when going on fast bumps small jumps with fast rebound, the front end lifts to much and to fast?


----------



## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

the coil reacts less harshly so try fast rebound.


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

louf said:


> the coil reacts less harshly so try fast rebound.


If you see on the recommended settings from Fox, and my air pressure (before I converted to coil at 106psi) it says 1 LSR and closed on HSR. My preferred setting was then 4-5 LSR and 2-closed HSR. 
So based on that I will be really surprised if I could manage even higher rebound speed. I have tried a bit, but it felt nervous on the front.

But I will try it again, and will see how it goes. Since the Grip 2 damper has both high speed and low speed I can try to see what happens with faster low speed.


----------



## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Yeah I will try, and will see how it goes. Since the Grip 2 damper has both high speed and low speed I can try to see what happens with faster low speed.


set the high and low rebound similar. eg 15-25% from closed.


----------



## Dr.Flow (Jul 6, 2011)

HSR will always have a greater impact. Check out Steve's TT edt. about it.


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Could you tell me where to find "Steve's TT edt"?

I have tried open up both HSR and LSR and it was not a god feel though. The front end gets nervous and the front end wander from side to side. 

Remember that I am at a totally different coil spring than yours, and the speed is much higher. I do not know exactly your coil spring, but I believe it is around 50-55lbs, that is 30% less force, and of course you could go much faster. Less spring force combined with some compression damping (slows down even more), should give you even more faster rebound.


----------



## ek33 (Apr 4, 2011)

High and low speed rebound damping explained:


----------



## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

ek33 said:


> High and low speed rebound damping explained:


Please be aware that this video is discussing the twin tube dampers that use digressive poppet valves for HSR (eg X2 and CCDB) and that it isn't relevant to the basically linear type of HSR adjustment found in the Grip2 dampers. In other words, don't follow that advice to set up your 36 or 40.


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Steve VS said:


> Please be aware that this video is discussing the twin tube dampers that use digressive poppet valves for HSR (eg X2 and CCDB) and that it isn't relevant to the basically linear type of HSR adjustment found in the Grip2 dampers. In other words, don't follow that advice to set up your 36 or 40.


Steve, what about vivid?


----------



## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

could someone explain to me the difference between high and low speed rebound and how it's important ? I've read a lot on high/low speed compression damping and have a general idea on how their work. As an example, m320 said that his fork was diving too much when hitting a square edge and someone told him to use more HSR...I don't understand...if the fork is diving too much, shouldn't we add some LSC first and then maybe add some more HSC afterwards if necessary, how is fork diving related to rebound ?


----------



## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Steve, what about vivid?


did you watch the entire video? start @ 14:00, almost over, & listen closely. you'll be so happy


----------



## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

Charlo489 said:


> could someone explain to me the difference between high and low speed rebound and how it's important ? I've read a lot on high/low speed compression damping and have a general idea on how their work. As an example, m320 said that his fork was diving too much when hitting a square edge and someone told him to use more HSR...I don't understand...if the fork is diving too much, shouldn't we add some LSC first and then maybe add some more HSC afterwards if necessary, how is fork diving related to rebound ?


I was told by Steve via email to start with the LSC. That makes sense to me also as I'm running fully open on all setting except rebound. Now that I have found the spring rate it like I can work on tuning.


----------



## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

for a dose of extra simplicity watching the rebound video, go directly to 8:20 and listen till ya hear what ya wanna hear, then go to 13:30, listen & watch what he's got on the board as 1,2 & 3. summarized to perfection for those of us who do not aspire to be bike suspension designers, builders, pro tuners. just want the best out of our ride. 

Thank you Mr. Steve


----------



## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

First full day on the smashpot today. This is what I’ve been looking for! Small bump is insane, grip galore. 

I had to slow my rebound 2 clicks from my normal air setting, other than that compression open, and no HBO dialled in. Over the course of the day I used 160/170mm, this included several runs of a WC style course. (Thredbo cannonball)

Stoked would be an understatement. If you are sitting on the fence of this mod, do it!

19 stumpjumper Evo 
36 rythym
170mm
55lb spring, 105kg rider weight.


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

brash said:


> First full day on the smashpot today. This is what I've been looking for! Small bump is insane, grip galore.
> 
> I had to slow my rebound 2 clicks from my normal air setting, other than that compression open, and no HBO dialled in. Over the course of the day I used 160/170mm, this included several runs of a WC style course. (Thredbo cannonball)
> 
> ...


First full day yesterday for me too on the smashpot. I am more disappointed then happy, since it still is to similar to the air set up of the Fox36. Tried to open up on the rebound, as adviced here in the forum thread. That was even a bigger disappointment. The tried less hsc and lsc, that helps, but needs 3/4 or more on bottom out control on the smashpot to not blow through the travel in worst compressions. I regret the whole thing and I am afraid the air setup is not reversible. Will try 70lbs spring to see if I can match it with HBO and compression settings that prevents bottom out and still has support in mid travel? I am 115kg and uses 75lbs spring.


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> First full day yesterday for me too on the smashpot. I am more disappointed then happy, since it still is to similar to the air set up of the Fox36. Tried to open up on the rebound, as adviced here in the forum thread. That was even a bigger disappointment. The tried less hsc and lsc, that helps, but needs 3/4 or more on bottom out control on the smashpot to not blow through the travel in worst compressions. I regret the whole thing and I am afraid the air setup is not reversible. Will try 70lbs spring to see if I can match it with HBO and compression settings that prevents bottom out and still has support in mid travel? I am 115kg and uses 75lbs spring.


I dont belive that coil works worse than air. All my forks/shocks are coil now. Tried luftkappe/ IRT / debonair. Nothing can beat the coil performance, especially with some kind of bottom system like push/vorsprung/avy offers.


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

nikon255 said:


> I dont belive that coil works worse than air. All my forks/shocks are coil now. Tried luftkappe/ IRT / debonair. Nothing can beat the coil performance, especially with some kind of bottom system like push/vorsprung/avy offers.


I thought it could be only my own opinion too, but I was on trail camp yesterday and meeting different suspension specialists and retailers, testing (just on the parking lot), that said the fork felt so super progressive too. Suppose the reason must be the firm spring then?


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

First you wrote about rushing thru the stroke and bottoming. Then specialist said its super progressive. WTF?  Contact with Steve for some tips how to set it up.


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

nikon255 said:


> First you wrote about rushing thru the stroke and bottoming. Then specialist said its super progressive. WTF?  Contact with Steve for some tips how to set it up.


I am trying to tell that when taking off HBO to get a more linear feel, I am using all travel. When turning on HBO I feels to progressive.


----------



## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> First full day yesterday for me too on the smashpot. I am more disappointed then happy, since it still is to similar to the air set up of the Fox36. Tried to open up on the rebound, as adviced here in the forum thread. That was even a bigger disappointment. The tried less hsc and lsc, that helps, but needs 3/4 or more on bottom out control on the smashpot to not blow through the travel in worst compressions. I regret the whole thing and I am afraid the air setup is not reversible. Will try 70lbs spring to see if I can match it with HBO and compression settings that prevents bottom out and still has support in mid travel? I am 115kg and uses 75lbs spring.


It makes no sense to go to a lighter spring if you are blowing through travel with that much hbo.


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I am trying to tell that when taking off HBO to get a more linear feel, I am using all travel. When turning on HBO I feels to progressive.


hbo works last 50mm. Againts rushing thru stroke is compression damping. Choose spring with 20-25% sag. Then fiddle with compression and rebound. At the end fiddle with hbo.


----------



## mantra (Feb 28, 2006)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> First full day yesterday for me too on the smashpot. I am more disappointed then happy, since it still is to similar to the air set up of the Fox36. Tried to open up on the rebound, as adviced here in the forum thread. That was even a bigger disappointment. The tried less hsc and lsc, that helps, but needs 3/4 or more on bottom out control on the smashpot to not blow through the travel in worst compressions. I regret the whole thing and I am afraid the air setup is not reversible. Will try 70lbs spring to see if I can match it with HBO and compression settings that prevents bottom out and still has support in mid travel? I am 115kg and uses 75lbs spring.


If you blow through the !entire! travel it´s probably more an issue of too little compression damping or even a too soft spring. Bottom-out is only for the last bit of travel and dosen´t do anything against blowing through the beginning and mid range. It´s been a while, but when I last rode coil sprung forks, I ended up with the stiffer spring in most cases because I found them more comfortable to ride.

EDIT: Just saw Nikon´s post, so he already said it... bottom out might not be the adjustment you are looking for.


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

tkblazer said:


> It makes no sense to go to a lighter spring if you are blowing through travel with that much hbo.


The reason to get a softer spring is to soften first part of travel and use more compression damping and HBC.
But yes I think it gives no sense I the first place.


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

mantra said:


> If you blow through the !entire! travel it´s probably more an issue of too little compression damping or even a too soft spring. Bottom-out is only for the last bit of travel and dosen´t do anything against blowing through the beginning and mid range. It´s been a while, but when I last rode coil sprung forks, I ended up with the stiffer spring in most cases because I found them more comfortable to ride.
> 
> EDIT: Just saw Nikon´s post, so he already said it... bottom out might not be the adjustment you are looking for.


Yes I know that more compression damping helps, but you will actually influence mid to end stroke with adding HBC. It should not influence more then last few mm of the stroke, but I find when turning on more HBC, the mid travel will be felt more progressive too.


----------



## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Yes I know that more compression damping helps, but you will actually influence mid to end stroke with adding HBC. It should not influence more then last few mm of the stroke, but I find when turning on more HBC, the mid travel will be felt more progressive too.


you are helpproof


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

nikon255 said:


> you are helpproof



Yes I know it seems to be like that.
But what to say if I have already done the different settings and I am trying to say in the first place that I actually ends up with a pretty similar feel like the air set up? Likewise compression setting and a heck of a lot ramp up.

Just want to hear other with same experience, but it seems like I am getting advise independent or individually advise of rebound, HBC and damping. This will not independently work alone, without influence the total feel of the fork. Smooth machine built trails like in Whistler and/or smooth trails, is totally different from what I am using the fork for. I have not smooth trails at all, and I am maybe using it in bike parks a couple of times a year. I am 115 kg and shifting a lot of weight on steep sections with pretty high speed.

The bespoke coil fork concept for me, is now not exactly that. If I need to have so progressive settings and firm spring. Just now I am probably to negative, but right now I think I would have come away with a lighter air fork, with 99,9% of the characteristics of the Coil.

Looking for someone with experience, who have gone on softer spring, heavier damping and HBC?

Also interested to know if someone have clogged up their HBC unit by adding to much grease on the spring. I might suspect that it can be a reason for the progressive feel the HBC gives earlier in stroke?


----------



## Frosty2019 (Jan 27, 2019)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Yes I know it seems to be like that.
> But what to say if I have already done the different settings and I am trying to say in the first place that I actually ends up with a pretty similar feel like the air set up? Likewise compression setting and a heck of a lot ramp up.
> 
> Just want to hear other with same experience, but it seems like I am getting advise independent or individually advise of rebound, HBC and damping. This will not independently work alone, without influence the total feel of the fork. Smooth machine built trails like in Whistler and/or smooth trails, is totally different from what I am using the fork for. I have not smooth trails at all, and I am maybe using it in bike parks a couple of times a year. I am 115 kg and shifting a lot of weight on steep sections with pretty high speed.
> ...


Did you install the smashpot yourself?


----------



## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> First full day yesterday for me too on the smashpot. I am more disappointed then happy, since it still is to similar to the air set up of the Fox36. Tried to open up on the rebound, as adviced here in the forum thread. That was even a bigger disappointment. The tried less hsc and lsc, that helps, but needs 3/4 or more on bottom out control on the smashpot to not blow through the travel in worst compressions. I regret the whole thing and I am afraid the air setup is not reversible. Will try 70lbs spring to see if I can match it with HBO and compression settings that prevents bottom out and still has support in mid travel? I am 115kg and uses 75lbs spring.


Not sure what travel you are running so don't know if it's a direct comparison. I'm almost exactly your weight using a 150mm Fox 36 fit 4. I started with the 80lb spring and ended of with the 60lb. This feels great for my riding (northeast rocky single track , small - med jumps and drops) and I haven't even started to tune with HBO , LSC of HSC. I did however have the Fractive tune done at the same time due to my heavier weight and higher spring rate. (As recommended by Steve). I do think this has played a big part in the performance of the fork for me. As no fork damping is made for someone of our size from the factory. Better yet made for a coil conversion also. Having used many forks over the year I can truly say this set up is a game changer for me. Feels nothing like a air fork and performance / customer support is top notch. I would consider sending you fork to Steve and have him take a look at what's going on as something does not sound right.


----------



## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> First full day yesterday for me too on the smashpot. I am more disappointed then happy, since it still is to similar to the air set up of the Fox36. Tried to open up on the rebound, as adviced here in the forum thread. That was even a bigger disappointment. The tried less hsc and lsc, that helps, but needs 3/4 or more on bottom out control on the smashpot to not blow through the travel in worst compressions. I regret the whole thing and I am afraid the air setup is not reversible. Will try 70lbs spring to see if I can match it with HBO and compression settings that prevents bottom out and still has support in mid travel? I am 115kg and uses 75lbs spring.


try lenghting the stroke 10mm, if your running a 150mm fork its still just a 150mm fork in the end. I'm going lengthen mine to 160 and I thought I was blowing through the travel but after a fast dry race last week it was fine but I'm still going to stretch it to 160 and mayby drop the bar height after.


----------



## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I am trying to tell that when taking off HBO to get a more linear feel, I am using all travel. When turning on HBO I feels to progressive.


I put 15wt oil instead of 20w and use 75% of the hbo


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Frosty2019 said:


> Did you install the smashpot yourself?


No, it was assembled by TF tuned in UK. I have not checked preload, but it should be okay. Called them and checked.


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

louf said:


> I put 15wt oil instead of 20w and use 75% of the hbo


Was thinking of thinner oil myself. What happened?


----------



## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

louf said:


> try lenghting the stroke 10mm, if your running a 150mm fork its still just a 150mm fork in the end. I'm going lengthen mine to 160 and I thought I was blowing through the travel but after a fast dry race last week it was fine but I'm still going to stretch it to 160 and mayby drop the bar height after.


Have 160mm on a Sentinel, so increasing travel would unbalance since rear travel is 140mm.


----------



## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

I don't notice the hbo 

I'm on a stumpy evo with a slightly longer stroke ttx 52.5 over the 50. try lenghting, it won't be 10mm longer in sag.

I also put a little 10wt along with the 5wt in the damper when I fitted the smashpot. And I run the compression lever at the 12 o'clock position.


----------



## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> First full day yesterday for me too on the smashpot. I am more disappointed then happy, since it still is to similar to the air set up of the Fox36. Tried to open up on the rebound, as adviced here in the forum thread. That was even a bigger disappointment. The tried less hsc and lsc, that helps, but needs 3/4 or more on bottom out control on the smashpot to not blow through the travel in worst compressions. I regret the whole thing and I am afraid the air setup is not reversible. Will try 70lbs spring to see if I can match it with HBO and compression settings that prevents bottom out and still has support in mid travel? I am 115kg and uses 75lbs spring.


From reading through your posts it's hard to work out exactly what you're most dissatisfied with - it sounds like you want it to be firmer, but then you mentioned going to a softer spring? Going to a softer spring definitely isn't the answer if you're finding that you want the fork sitting up further in its travel - a firmer spring or more HSC (which may require revalving as well, see below) is the answer here. The HBO system has no effect whatsoever until the last 50mm of travel, its purpose is to prevent hard bottoming, not to give more support in the middle of the travel. Other people bouncing on the fork, if they aren't a similar weight to you, may feel like it's very "progressive" in the sense that it moves fairly freely but they can't use anything like full travel - that's just a what a very stiff linear spring feels like to a rider who isn't heavy enough for it, because the spring force increases quickly. You won't have clogged the HBO system with grease, it operates under fairly high pressure when it does engage and would blow any grease out no problem.

At 115kg it's also almost certain that the fork's compression damping is not valved anywhere near firm enough for you - it sounds like you're an aggressive rider on steep, rough terrain and there'll be a distinct lack of support there unless it's revalved. Most forks these days come configured from factory to be able to cater to 60kg riders without feeling overdamped. At the very least, before changing out any parts or anything like that, I'd recommend setting your HSC adjuster to maximum, LSC to minimum, and increasing LSC until it starts feeling harsh or dead, or like it just isn't really moving freely, then back the LSC off a couple of clicks, and see if that helps.

I am also assuming from your description of HSC/LSC adjustments that you're on a Fox fork here because if you're on a Charger RC2 damper, the compression adjustments do very little so you'd definitely want a firmer valving if nothing else.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Steve VS said:


> From reading through your posts it's hard to work out exactly what you're most dissatisfied with - it sounds like you want it to be firmer, but then you mentioned going to a softer spring? Going to a softer spring definitely isn't the answer if you're finding that you want the fork sitting up further in its travel - a firmer spring or more HSC (which may require revalving as well, see below) is the answer here. The HBO system has no effect whatsoever until the last 50mm of travel, its purpose is to prevent hard bottoming, not to give more support in the middle of the travel. Other people bouncing on the fork, if they aren't a similar weight to you, may feel like it's very "progressive" in the sense that it moves fairly freely but they can't use anything like full travel - that's just a what a very stiff linear spring feels like to a rider who isn't heavy enough for it, because the spring force increases quickly. You won't have clogged the HBO system with grease, it operates under fairly high pressure when it does engage and would blow any grease out no problem.
> 
> At 115kg it's also almost certain that the fork's compression damping is not valved anywhere near firm enough for you - it sounds like you're an aggressive rider on steep, rough terrain and there'll be a distinct lack of support there unless it's revalved. Most forks these days come configured from factory to be able to cater to 60kg riders without feeling overdamped. At the very least, before changing out any parts or anything like that, I'd recommend setting your HSC adjuster to maximum, LSC to minimum, and increasing LSC until it starts feeling harsh or dead, or like it just isn't really moving freely, then back the LSC off a couple of clicks, and see if that helps.
> 
> I am also assuming from your description of HSC/LSC adjustments that you're on a Fox fork here because if you're on a Charger RC2 damper, the compression adjustments do very little so you'd definitely want a firmer valving if nothing else.


Thanks Steve for replying here! I know it is quite difficult for you to find out what I want to have. (if not an excuse, it perhaps be an explanation for all the confused information, that I am a bit frustrated by not getting the way I want it to be)

Yes I have a Fox 36 Grip 2. To start from the beginning, I was buying the Smashpot kit since I was getting to much hand pump and got a kind of beated and tired arms. I think I found a way to live with it, at 105-108 psi and with a MRP Ramp Cartridge adjusted for heavy riding or lighter riding accordingly. The HSC and LSC was in mid position, and I think I got it to sit fairly high in travel. Smooth trails was totally fine with the air set up, but when getting fast into rocky and root sections I felt the wheel did not track ground, and it got harsh. (it is difficult for me to explain with the correct words since I am not from US)

So maybe my expectation for the Smashpot kit was a bit to high, and I might thought it was making a bigger difference? Of course I get less tired arms, and I think the front wheel tracks way better. I maybe expect that I should get even more out if it, and be even more comfortable and less harsh? But it might not be possible with that firm spring in the first place?

So I have turned off/on HSC/LSC (in parallell though). I can feel more comfortable at flat trails with a lot of root and rocks with LSC/HSC turned to minimum. Playing around with Rebound was not doing any big difference, I think I am using it as fast I can without getting kicked out of the line (5 LSR and closed HSR).

If these explanation is giving more sense I am happy, and I will definitely try to do what you recommend with the HSC/LSC settings, to see what happens. I think I have understood that you are looking to get me higher in travel to get use of the plushness of a less compressed spring?


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Thanks Steve for replying here! I know it is quite difficult for you to find out what I want to have. (if not an excuse, it perhaps be an explanation for all the confused information, that I am a bit frustrated by not getting the way I want it to be)
> 
> Yes I have a Fox 36 Grip 2. To start from the beginning, I was buying the Smashpot kit since I was getting to much hand pump and got a kind of beated and tired arms. I think I found a way to live with it, at 105-108 psi and with a MRP Ramp Cartridge adjusted for heavy riding or lighter riding accordingly. The HSC and LSC was in mid position, and I think I got it to sit fairly high in travel. Smooth trails was totally fine with the air set up, but when getting fast into rocky and root sections I felt the wheel did not track ground, and it got harsh. (it is difficult for me to explain with the correct words since I am not from US)
> 
> ...


That's good information, thanks. The main reason I was suggesting more HSC or a firmer spring was because you'd previously mentioned blowing through travel (ie spring and/or compression damping too soft). You said you were able to use full travel with the HBO set to fully soft (which I interpreted as you being able to bottom it out heavily - correct me if I read that wrong? If you were just reaching full travel but not violently, then that's fine), and that the fork felt too progressive with the HBO wound in. If you did not like the progression (ie it felt like too much force, too suddenly at the end of the stroke) with the HBO wound further in, then the solution is a firmer spring so that you don't require much force from the HBO. However, the point of having an anti-bottoming system is that it lets you run a softer spring than you otherwise could, without harsh bottoming.

With any spring (air or coil) there is a certain stiffness required to hold you up during highly dynamic events (hard compressions) and obviously the higher the stiffness, the more force it transmits over all bump sizes too. With a coil, running a firmer one will always cause more hand fatigue and less ability of the wheel to comply with the ground (unless you're running a spring so soft that you're frequently in the last 40-50mm of travel even over smaller repeated bumps), so based on your most recent post then I'd agree that it's possible you'd prefer the softer one since in that post you didn't mention anything about blowing through travel. If it's basically grip and traction that you want, softer spring and increased HSC will quite likely help. You may find max HSC too firm, but for you it's a reasonable starting point.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Steve VS said:


> That's good information, thanks. The main reason I was suggesting more HSC or a firmer spring was because you'd previously mentioned blowing through travel (ie spring and/or compression damping too soft). You said you were able to use full travel with the HBO set to fully soft (which I interpreted as you being able to bottom it out heavily - correct me if I read that wrong? If you were just reaching full travel but not violently, then that's fine), and that the fork felt too progressive with the HBO wound in. If you did not like the progression (ie it felt like too much force, too suddenly at the end of the stroke) with the HBO wound further in, then the solution is a firmer spring so that you don't require much force from the HBO. However, the point of having an anti-bottoming system is that it lets you run a softer spring than you otherwise could, without harsh bottoming.
> 
> With any spring (air or coil) there is a certain stiffness required to hold you up during highly dynamic events (hard compressions) and obviously the higher the stiffness, the more force it transmits over all bump sizes too. With a coil, running a firmer one will always cause more hand fatigue and less ability of the wheel to comply with the ground (unless you're running a spring so soft that you're frequently in the last 40-50mm of travel even over smaller repeated bumps), so based on your most recent post then I'd agree that it's possible you'd prefer the softer one since in that post you didn't mention anything about blowing through travel. If it's basically grip and traction that you want, softer spring and increased HSC will quite likely help. You may find max HSC too firm, but for you it's a reasonable starting point.


Yes I am only blowing through occasionally, when hitting hard compression, such as after steep roll overs or step downs. I am not bottoming out in drops and jumps, not that I am taking any big ones anyway. That is when using less than 10-12 clicks out on the HBC.

So it might be a solution for me to go with a softer spring and still get away with heavier damping? (Also the HBC will save me when going on the more heavy stuff)

I know it is not totally relevant to compare rear shock and fork, but the experience with a really soft coil and heavier damping combined with HBC, has been good experience on my EXT Storia V3. There is of course the key factor, as you mentioned earlier, that the scope of tune fits body weight and riding style.


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## schmung (Apr 26, 2019)

Running my smashpot at 160mm in my pikes on my bird aeris 145LT; was initially fitted with a 45lb spring (I'm about 140 lbs and I think tftuned were using the first revision of the chart) which I'm not getting anywhere near full travel on, so got a 40 on order. Even with less than ideal spring rate I've noticed a huge difference on rooty/bumpy stuff so should be great once I get the right spring. The fast damper I have fitted is pretty helpful in that it gives me separate LSC and HSC as well. Might have to tinker with those again once I get the new spring, but time will tell.


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## k-addicted (Aug 1, 2011)

schmung said:


> Running my smashpot at 160mm in my pikes on my bird aeris 145LT; was initially fitted with a 45lb spring (I'm about 140 lbs and I think tftuned were using the first revision of the chart) which I'm not getting anywhere near full travel on, so got a 40 on order. Even with less than ideal spring rate I've noticed a huge difference on rooty/bumpy stuff so should be great once I get the right spring. The fast damper I have fitted is pretty helpful in that it gives me separate LSC and HSC as well. Might have to tinker with those again once I get the new spring, but time will tell.


My experience is exactly the same as yours. I was going to order a 45 lbs. spring today. Let me know if you want to sell yours? Im in Boston.


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## schmung (Apr 26, 2019)

Boston UK or USA? If it's the UK then no problem, if it's the US then I imagine postage cost & time would rule that out.


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## ek33 (Apr 4, 2011)

k-addicted said:


> My experience is exactly the same as yours. I was going to order a 45 lbs. spring today. Let me know if you want to sell yours? Im in Boston.


Do you have a 50 that you want to sell?


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## k-addicted (Aug 1, 2011)

schmung said:


> Boston UK or USA? If it's the UK then no problem, if it's the US then I imagine postage cost & time would rule that out.


Bummer. Boston USA. Thanks.


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## k-addicted (Aug 1, 2011)

ek33 said:


> Do you have a 50 that you want to sell?


Sure. I won't be ready to ship till I get the new one. I'm going to call Steve today.


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## ek33 (Apr 4, 2011)

k-addicted said:


> Sure. I won't be ready to ship till I get the new one. I'm going to call Steve today.


Cool, PM sent.

I've been trying to dial in my spring rate, too. I started with a 55, bought a 60 and realized I went the wrong way so I gave it away to someone on this forum. I'm back on the 55 with HBO 10 clicks out and I think I can get away with a lighter spring.

Since you're in the US, I recommend ordering from a Vorsprung dealer in the US for quicker delivery. I highly recommend Michael Barbaro at Full Flow Suspension www.fullflowsuspension.com.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

M320 said:


> Not sure what travel you are running so don't know if it's a direct comparison. I'm almost exactly your weight using a 150mm Fox 36 fit 4. I started with the 80lb spring and ended of with the 60lb. This feels great for my riding (northeast rocky single track , small - med jumps and drops) and I haven't even started to tune with HBO , LSC of HSC. I did however have the Fractive tune done at the same time due to my heavier weight and higher spring rate. (As recommended by Steve). I do think this has played a big part in the performance of the fork for me. As no fork damping is made for someone of our size from the factory. Better yet made for a coil conversion also. Having used many forks over the year I can truly say this set up is a game changer for me. Feels nothing like a air fork and performance / customer support is top notch. I would consider sending you fork to Steve and have him take a look at what's going on as something does not sound right.


Interesting to hear about the reduced spring firmness all the way from 80 to 60lbs. Curious about how you use the LSC and HSC to compensate for the soft spring, and how much sag you have with that spring. What type of riding do you do, since I have trails features that does make me bottom out if I am under 10 clicks on HBO.


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Interesting to hear about the reduced spring firmness all the way from 80 to 60lbs. Curious about how you use the LSC and HSC to compensate for the soft spring, and how much sag you have with that spring. What type of riding do you do, since I have trails features that does make me bottom out if I am under 10 clicks on HBO.


I only have 3 rides on this spring so far so I will report back once I get it all worked out. I ride rocky / rooted single track most of the time with Small jumps / drops (under 3 feet). Also some fast buffed out trails in the area with small jumps and rollers. Just the other day was my longest ride so far on this spring and I did find my hands were very sore and numb at times on the longer downhills, so have to try and figure that out. Also get hung up at times on the slow speed square edge rocks. Still no bottom out with HBO all the way open. Keep in mind I also have the highest Fractive Tune on the damper side.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

M320 said:


> I only have 3 rides on this spring so far so I will report back once I get it all worked out. I ride rocky / rooted single track most of the time with Small jumps / drops (under 3 feet). Also some fast buffed out trails in the area with small jumps and rollers. Just the other day was my longest ride so far on this spring and I did find my hands were very sore and numb at times on the longer downhills, so have to try and figure that out. Also get hung up at times on the slow speed square edge rocks. Still no bottom out with HBO all the way open. Keep in mind I also have the highest Fractive Tune on the damper side.


Okay, but still wondering why you get sore hands and numb, when using as soft as 60lbs spring?


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## M320 (Mar 22, 2013)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Okay, but still wondering why you get sore hands and numb, when using as soft as 60lbs spring?


Not sure yet. Going to try some adjustments over the next few weeks and see what happens.


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## schmung (Apr 26, 2019)

Got my 40 spring fitted last night and will hopefully try it this evening. I assume I'll have to tweak damper settings from what they were to get the best of it. Any pointers on first steps for this? I was just going to leave as is for the first run to see where I am and try and work from there.

On a side note, I have to say how impressed I was with the clarity and detail of the instructions. Even a mechanical moron like me can do a spring swap with the minimum of tools (had to buy the 28mm chamferless socket) and time. Nice job vorsprung.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Steve VS said:


> That's good information, thanks. The main reason I was suggesting more HSC or a firmer spring was because you'd previously mentioned blowing through travel (ie spring and/or compression damping too soft). You said you were able to use full travel with the HBO set to fully soft (which I interpreted as you being able to bottom it out heavily - correct me if I read that wrong? If you were just reaching full travel but not violently, then that's fine), and that the fork felt too progressive with the HBO wound in. If you did not like the progression (ie it felt like too much force, too suddenly at the end of the stroke) with the HBO wound further in, then the solution is a firmer spring so that you don't require much force from the HBO. However, the point of having an anti-bottoming system is that it lets you run a softer spring than you otherwise could, without harsh bottoming.
> 
> With any spring (air or coil) there is a certain stiffness required to hold you up during highly dynamic events (hard compressions) and obviously the higher the stiffness, the more force it transmits over all bump sizes too. With a coil, running a firmer one will always cause more hand fatigue and less ability of the wheel to comply with the ground (unless you're running a spring so soft that you're frequently in the last 40-50mm of travel even over smaller repeated bumps), so based on your most recent post then I'd agree that it's possible you'd prefer the softer one since in that post you didn't mention anything about blowing through travel. If it's basically grip and traction that you want, softer spring and increased HSC will quite likely help. You may find max HSC too firm, but for you it's a reasonable starting point.


Steve, thanks for advising me to try more HSC and less (or nothing LSC?). That made the fork turn into something unbelievable good. Today I have ridden Enduro Race, pretty chunky and rocky trails, in addition to roots and other bumpy things. I have not arm fatigue or sour arms at all. But the best part the bike swallows things so I could go faster, safer and better then ever before.

I have one question though, it is coming a quite loud noise from the fork, when going through repeatedly rough sections an then taking further compression or drops. The noise is like slamming the fork into bottom out.

It happens when using mid position HBC. I think it does not happen when full HBC.

The thing is, when I get the sound and see on the rubber ring if I have bottom out, it looks that it is still 20mm left of travel.

Could that be coil binding or could something happen to the spring, when hitting HBC area?

PS! I will go from 2/3 of full HSC to full, but I think the fork will not be so great and plush like it is now. Also runs fully open on LSC, but when looking at your video on youtube Technical Tuesday it should not be necessary to use LSC as long as you are using much HSC and thereby get some initial LSC?

All in all very satisfied now!


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

ek33 said:


> Cool, PM sent.
> 
> I've been trying to dial in my spring rate, too. I started with a 55, bought a 60 and realized I went the wrong way so I gave it away to someone on this forum.


Let me know if you end up getting rid of the 55 lb, i just dropped down to a 60 lb from a 65 lb. I will need a 55 lb for my new frame in a couple or months. I will have a 60,65 and 70 lb spring for anyone that needs to try a different spring.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Anyone who tried lighter weight oil on the smashpot out there?


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## ek33 (Apr 4, 2011)

tkblazer said:


> Let me know if you end up getting rid of the 55 lb, i just dropped down to a 60 lb from a 65 lb. I will need a 55 lb for my new frame in a couple or months. I will have a 60,65 and 70 lb spring for anyone that needs to try a different spring.


I will be keeping the 55 since it is perfect for trails with big hits which is what I've been riding a lot lately. I want to pick up a 50 to have on hand for mellower trails.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Steve, thanks for advising me to try more HSC and less (or nothing LSC?). That made the fork turn into something unbelievable good. Today I have ridden Enduro Race, pretty chunky and rocky trails, in addition to roots and other bumpy things. I have not arm fatigue or sour arms at all. But the best part the bike swallows things so I could go faster, safer and better then ever before.
> 
> I have one question though, it is coming a quite loud noise from the fork, when going through repeatedly rough sections an then taking further compression or drops. The noise is like slamming the fork into bottom out.
> 
> ...


I haven't come across any noises like this to date. It won't be coil binding, all spring rates can travel more than 200mm before reaching solid length. May be that what you're hearing is just the HBO system engaging particularly hard - what happens if you open it up a bit more?

Glad to hear you're enjoying the ride a lot more now though. HSC is commonly demonised especially on these forums, but it usually isn't the enemy


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Steve VS said:


> I haven't come across any noises like this to date. It won't be coil binding, all spring rates can travel more than 200mm before reaching solid length. May be that what you're hearing is just the HBO system engaging particularly hard - what happens if you open it up a bit more?
> 
> Glad to hear you're enjoying the ride a lot more now though. HSC is commonly demonised especially on these forums, but it usually isn't the enemy


Hi Steve! I will try different settings on the HBC to see how it works, but I think it gets a similar sound when bottom out on open HBC. Will also try to take a lighter weight oil, to see if the sounds differently. I think that that the Fox Gold 20 is a bit heavy in colder temperatures (it is about 40 Fahrenheit C), and it might stall the hydraulic, so it acts more like a stop then a bottom out feature? The Fox 20 should be good in warmer weather though. I will first try the Fox 5 from the damper side to see how it reacts.


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## schmung (Apr 26, 2019)

Had a few rides with the lighter spring now and it's very different, to the point that I really didn't like it initially as I was using so much travel. The 45 actually felt pretty good if I was going really quickly, but the reality is that's a rare event and for slower and more technical stuff I just wasn't getting enough out of it. I think with some more adjustment the 40 will be great, but I need to get my settings sorted out.

I've dialled up HSC and LSC by quite a bit and that seems to have helped as I feel it's holding up a bit more, but I'm going to ride some more before adjusting further. A click more rebound speed was all that was needed for that to feel right. HBO working really well - I'm not seeing full travel yet, but I've not hit anything that I'd expect to utilise it.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

schmung said:


> Had a few rides with the lighter spring now and it's very different, to the point that I really didn't like it initially as I was using so much travel. The 45 actually felt pretty good if I was going really quickly, but the reality is that's a rare event and for slower and more technical stuff I just wasn't getting enough out of it. I think with some more adjustment the 40 will be great, but I need to get my settings sorted out.
> 
> I've dialled up HSC and LSC by quite a bit and that seems to have helped as I feel it's holding up a bit more, but I'm going to ride some more before adjusting further. A click more rebound speed was all that was needed for that to feel right. HBO working really well - I'm not seeing full travel yet, but I've not hit anything that I'd expect to utilise it.


Try to add more HSC and start from fully open on LSC, if you have enough spring support it should give you a better feeling. If you have softer spring I think you might need to have more LSC and that will destroy the feeling. I will guess it can be better with a firmer spring that does not need to be over damped. At least that is what I found out, when I finally found that I could use only HSC and zero LSC, since I got he firmest spring (75) that is in the more progressive side.


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## schmung (Apr 26, 2019)

Yeah, that's what I'm currently wondering - if I could use the 45 with no LSC and a bit of HSC, or if a more heavily damped 40 is better. For ref I was getting about 12-15% sag on 45 and 25%ish on 40.

I'll ride it some more and see where I end up.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

schmung said:


> Yeah, that's what I'm currently wondering - if I could use the 45 with no LSC and a bit of HSC, or if a more heavily damped 40 is better. For ref I was getting about 12-15% sag on 45 and 25%ish on 40.
> 
> I'll ride it some more and see where I end up.


Just strange that 5lbs difference in sprig rate is giving so much reduced sag? Should think that 10% reduced spring rate would give approx. the same reduced sag, so from 25 to more like 20%? Are you sure you are doing the exact comparison? Are you doing it with fully open damper too? I have 20% sag and then about half closed HSC, that is magic for me. Getting support deeper into sag, and wheel will not skip or skid over rocks and roots when hitting it, just swallow and still go back to sit at it`s travel. The only thing is when taking the roughest lines it could be bottom out when getting into even more challenging stuff.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Anyone who tried lighter weight oil on the smashpot out there?


I'm running 15wt rock oil, HBO 3/4 from open. its fine apart from landing to flat where I can feel it bottom out.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

louf said:


> I'm running 15wt rock oil, HBO 3/4 from open. its fine apart from landing to flat where I can feel it bottom out.


Okay, have you compared the 15 wt oil with 20wt oil? I am pretty sure that 20wt in the relative cold spring weather where I live, is to heavy. That is probably why I am feeling that the fork is "colored" in earlier in the stroke then the last part.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

schmung said:


> Yeah, that's what I'm currently wondering - if I could use the 45 with no LSC and a bit of HSC, or if a more heavily damped 40 is better. For ref I was getting about 12-15% sag on 45 and 25%ish on 40.
> 
> I'll ride it some more and see where I end up.


Just a note - this is why we don't recommend trying to measure sag for forks, as it's so difficult to measure consistently. The difference in sag if it were possible to measure consistently, between a 40 and a 45 would only be about 0.12 x your sag percentage, ie if you get 20% sag with a 45, you'd get about 22.5% with a 40. However, fork friction plus inconsistency in body position mean that the measurements are all over the place at the best of times. Compare spring rates/air pressures and the actual trail feel to determine the most appropriate spring rate.


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## schmung (Apr 26, 2019)

Steve VS said:


> Just a note - this is why we don't recommend trying to measure sag for forks, as it's so difficult to measure consistently. The difference in sag if it were possible to measure consistently, between a 40 and a 45 would only be about 0.12 x your sag percentage, ie if you get 20% sag with a 45, you'd get about 22.5% with a 40. However, fork friction plus inconsistency in body position mean that the measurements are all over the place at the best of times. Compare spring rates/air pressures and the actual trail feel to determine the most appropriate spring rate.


Didn't know that and worth bearing in mind - thanks.

The two feel massively different, but based on those numbers it might be that the damping was too aggressive on the 45 spring. Now I know how easy it is to swap out I'm more inclined to play around with things a bit more.

Think the FAST damper has a lot more useable range from the stock RS one and I was certainly running lighter damping when I was on air, so maybe I should have started there.

I think a day on the uplift bus with a lunchtime spring swap might be in order to get to the bottom of this.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Steve VS said:


> Just a note - this is why we don't recommend trying to measure sag for forks, as it's so difficult to measure consistently. The difference in sag if it were possible to measure consistently, between a 40 and a 45 would only be about 0.12 x your sag percentage, ie if you get 20% sag with a 45, you'd get about 22.5% with a 40. However, fork friction plus inconsistency in body position mean that the measurements are all over the place at the best of times. Compare spring rates/air pressures and the actual trail feel to determine the most appropriate spring rate.


Steve, if I run a 50 at 150mm, and want it to bottom out less would reconfiguring it to 160mm sort it out or should I fit a 55lb spring and stay at 150mm?
thanks


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

louf said:


> Steve, if I run a 50 at 150mm, and want it to bottom out less would reconfiguring it to 160mm sort it out or should I fit a 55lb spring and stay at 150mm?
> thanks


50 at 150mm gives 1312N to bottom. 50 at 160mm gives 1400N to bottom. 55 at 150mm gives 1444N to bottom. Also going 160 should give more lowers pressure build up to prevent bottoming. If you could increase travel go 160 first.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

nikon255 said:


> 50 at 150mm gives 1312N to bottom. 50 at 160mm gives 1400N to bottom. 55 at 150mm gives 1444N to bottom. Also going 160 should give more lowers pressure build up to prevent bottoming. If you could increase travel go 160 first.


Class reply 👌🏻


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

Anyone regret buying a coil kit ? Is it worth it considering the price ? I have a lyrik rc2 2019 and while there is some stiction, it's the best air fork I've ridden so far


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Charlo489 said:


> Anyone regret buying a coil kit ? Is it worth it considering the price ? I have a lyrik rc2 2019 and while there is some stiction, it's the best air fork I've ridden so far


Yes definitely worth it, cheap for what it is and the range of coil choice. Ah a race on the weekend and the small bump was fantastic 20psi assagi tyre felt like 15psi.


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

Okay but would you say the benefits are more when riding super long descents to avoid arm fatigue ? Where I ride, the descent trails are 3 to 5 minutes max


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Charlo489 said:


> Okay but would you say the benefits are more when riding super long descents to avoid arm fatigue ? Where I ride, the descent trails are 3 to 5 minutes max


Same difference. So are my trails. Unless you only ride groomed flow trail then stick with a hardtail...


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## schmung (Apr 26, 2019)

Charlo489 said:


> Anyone regret buying a coil kit ? Is it worth it considering the price ? I have a lyrik rc2 2019 and while there is some stiction, it's the best air fork I've ridden so far


It depends. Some people get on completely fine with air or find it works better for their riding. I've always struggled with arm/hand pump and getting forks to work properly for me, but I tried a friends coil equipped bike and much preferred the feel. For me the smashpot is already worth it - it helps out a lot with smoothing out the really lumpy stuff, gives me more traction on roots and the bottom out control works a treat.

Also, it it's useful for anyone else I went back to the 45lb spring and dialled out a ton of LSC and a few clicks of HSC and am now much happier. It turns out I'd underestimated just how much adjustment was in the fast damper. Oh well, lesson learned.


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

Charlo489 said:


> Anyone regret buying a coil kit ? Is it worth it considering the price ? I have a lyrik rc2 2019 and while there is some stiction, it's the best air fork I've ridden so far


To be honest, the 19 Lyric RC2 is really good. But the coil just has better mid stroke support if you are running the correct spring for your weight.

Bottom out has been fine for both. Of course you can go a bit more progressive with air but with the smashpot, you can go progressive but also have the option to go more linear and bottom out more frequently (if you choose)

For small bump sensitivity, i think a just recently serviced RC2 with its large negative air chamber feels just about as good as the smashpot. The problem with air is after just a couple weeks of riding, that super sensitive feeling starts to go away. With the smashpot and other coils, you maintain that same feel/consistency for much much longer.

If you are a EWS or DH pro racer, you get your fork stripped down and serviced almost daily so the performance of their air forks is always great plus they hit stuff so fast and hard that they want/need way more progressiveness than the normal human


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

Well I almost cancelled my order but screw it, I'll go ahead and install the coil. I'm sure I'll like it. The annoying thing is that I'm sure my csu will creak eventually and the coil kit will void the warranty...My pike used to creak, hopefuly the lyrik won't do that...


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## miikatapio (Apr 23, 2019)

I put the Smashpot in LYRIK RC2 2019. I've now raced two enduros and rode a couple bike park days. I was looking for plush small bump sensitivity and firm mid stroke support and got it with Smashpot. No handpump and my injured shoulder feels much better now. 

Rider morning weight: 87kg
Spring: 55lbs (tried 45 and 50, too soft) 
Fork: Lyrik rc2 2019 180mm

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

I'm 73kg, ordered a 40 lbs spring...not sure if I should have gone for the 45...I have a commencal clash, 180mm of travel, it loves going fast on downhills


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

miikatapio said:


> I put the Smashpot in LYRIK RC2 2019. I've now raced two enduros and rode a couple bike park days. I was looking for plush small bump sensitivity and firm mid stroke support and got it with Smashpot. No handpump and my injured shoulder feels much better now.
> 
> Rider morning weight: 87kg
> Spring: 55lbs (tried 45 and 50, too soft)
> ...


In my Opinion, If your fork has HSC adjustment, it's best to go for the stiffer spring rate. It keeps you a bit higher in the travel.

If you are not that aggressive a rider and not using all the travel, you can dial back HSC to be able to use it all.

If you don't have HSC adjustments, the fork's High speed compression dampening is typically dampened about midway so it may be better starting off with a softer spring


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Just opened to try a softer coil. Found the shrink plastic to be loose. Both on the coil, and the long black one on the outer tube. The red one on the coil had thread itself down to the bottom of the spring and the other was so loose so it could go over and cover the bleed hole. So that is why it was acting so bad probably. It was assembled by the dealer when I bought it. Maybe you should check.


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

mmm is it me or you're not the first one who got that problem ? Is there a proper way to solve this ?


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Charlo489 said:


> mmm is it me or you're not the first one who got that problem ? Is there a proper way to solve this ?


Maybe need some glue?


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## evildos (Aug 17, 2015)

I'm not sure glue would work fine on a piece that keeps changing shape like a coil spring.


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

Applying even heat to the shrink wrap resolves that issue.
Don’t use a heat gun, use your cooking stove!!!!


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

seriously, in the oven ? Like at the minimum settings and you just watch it ?


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

bmwzimmer said:


> Applying even heat to the shrink wrap resolves that issue.
> Don't use a heat gun, use your cooking stove!!!!


Gas or electric and is with chips ok? ;-)


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

The problem is not to get the shrink wrap to shrink. It is more to keep it away from acting with threads. It actually will wind itself down, due to the shape of the shrink wrap follows the shape of the coil.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Steve, could you help us what to do, getting the shrink wrap working like it should? Anything to consider so it would not wind itself downwards? 

Is it maybe doing a difference if the coil is mounted the other way, so the thread is winding it upwards and not downwards?


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## Ameiza (Dec 26, 2017)

Mine was winding down as well. Installed by the local reseller. Swapped the spring and haven't checked the new one yet.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Yes I think it will wind itself down no matter how you shrink it. Since you actually makes the shrink wrap with threads. 

I am not sure, but I suppose it will sit where it should not sit, with the bleed holes on the tube above the HBO.

What is even worse is the black shrink wrap on the tube, that come loose and slides over the bleed holes. 
I am sure this is why my fork did behave so progressive and strange, when using the HBO more then 1/2 closed. It was actually blocked??


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Steve, could you help us what to do, getting the shrink wrap working like it should? Anything to consider so it would not wind itself downwards?
> 
> Is it maybe doing a difference if the coil is mounted the other way, so the thread is winding it upwards and not downwards?


I only quoted this because it made me laugh 



Rumblefish2010 said:


> Yes I think it will wind itself down no matter how you shrink it. Since you actually makes the shrink wrap with threads.
> 
> I am not sure, but I suppose it will sit where it should not sit, with the bleed holes on the tube above the HBO.
> 
> ...


Is it possible you didn't apply enough heat to shrink it enough? Was the rod clean and oil free when you wrapped it?


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

robmac48 said:


> I only quoted this because it made me laugh
> 
> Is it possible you didn't apply enough heat to shrink it enough? Was the rod clean and oil free when you wrapped it?


You tell me, it is one of the major shock service and distributors in Europe that did it, so if they did not now how to do it properly I do not know?
I have not been using coil in forks, so I do not know it is a common thing, but I suppose it is an issue if the shrink wrap is not where it should be. At least covering the hydraulic bottoming out system.....


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

Coil spring wrap always migrates. Every coil fork I've used has done it. Back in the day, we used to just wrap the majority of the spring length in a couple layers of Saran wrap and apply some heat to it. Not sure that would be acceptable today, but applying heat to the existing wrap will work. It's something you have to check.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Yes I think it will wind itself down no matter how you shrink it. Since you actually makes the shrink wrap with threads.
> 
> I am not sure, but I suppose it will sit where it should not sit, with the bleed holes on the tube above the HBO.
> 
> ...


If the shrink wrap on the tube is moving around, it was not installed properly, ie not enough heat (or it's possibly been used with some weird oil that causes it to swell, but I haven't seen that happen). It keys into the machined ribs on the tube to prevent that, and the longer end of the heat shrink overlaps the sealhead so it cannot slide down the tube. We have tested it even fully overlapping the holes, the oil pressure blows the heat shrink back away from the holes so it definitely is not what you were describing. What it does instead if that is the case is prevent the HBO from refilling properly and basically renders it useless - it does the exact opposite of what you describe in terms of progression.

Heat shrink moving up and down coil springs is not easily avoided. Install with plenty of heat and it should stay in place for quite a while, but over time it may shift and need to be repositioned.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Steve VS said:


> If the shrink wrap on the tube is moving around, it was not installed properly, ie not enough heat (or it's possibly been used with some weird oil that causes it to swell, but I haven't seen that happen). It keys into the machined ribs on the tube to prevent that, and the longer end of the heat shrink overlaps the sealhead so it cannot slide down the tube. We have tested it even fully overlapping the holes, the oil pressure blows the heat shrink back away from the holes so it definitely is not what you were describing. What it does instead if that is the case is prevent the HBO from refilling properly and basically renders it useless - it does the exact opposite of what you describe in terms of progression.
> 
> Heat shrink moving up and down coil springs is not easily avoided. Install with plenty of heat and it should stay in place for quite a while, but over time it may shift and need to be repositioned.


Thanks Steve, I have reheated the shrink wrap and will need to follow up after a few weeks of riding.

Despite of what you say of the behavior of the HBC on the Smashpot, it was significantly difference in feel towards something ramping up more than it should, when the shrink wrap was in place compared when it all sat wrong.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Thanks Steve, I have reheated the shrink wrap and will need to follow up after a few weeks of riding.
> 
> Despite of what you say of the behavior of the HBC on the Smashpot, it was significantly difference in feel towards something ramping up more than it should, when the shrink wrap was in place compared when it all sat wrong.


I'd replace the old heat shrink with new but fully clean and remove all the old oil/ grease before installing the new. sounds like the heat shrink was defiantly not installed right. I bought mine from the same place and they sent the wrong shock hardware and the bush lasted a month. mistakes happen.

I'm very happy with my recommend spring at the standard fork length with 15wt oil and the HBO a click or two from closed. ?


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

louf said:


> I'd replace the old heat shrink with new but fully clean and remove all the old oil/ grease before installing the new. sounds like the heat shrink was defiantly not installed right. I bought mine from the same place and they sent the wrong shock hardware and the bush lasted a month. mistakes happen.
> 
> I'm very happy with my recommend spring at the standard fork length with 15wt oil and the HBO a click or two from closed. 


Yes I will need to get some new heat shrink. Will need to find som suitable first.

I have just tried to use 5 wt Fox, same as on the Grip 2 damper side. 
Using fully closed HBO on mine.


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Yes I will need to get some new heat shrink. Will need to find som suitable first.
> 
> I have just tried to use 5 wt Fox, same as on the Grip 2 damper side.
> Using fully closed HBO on mine.


5wt is a huge change. Probably not for off fully open with 20wt. Look at adjusting the HBO shim stack. 15wt is a big change.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

louf said:


> 5wt is a huge change. Probably not for off fully open with 20wt. Look at adjusting the HBO shim stack. 15wt is a big change.


Yeah I know, but I did not have any other. Have 
ordered 15wt from Rock Shocks. Suppose it should be fine....?


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## Monster Truck (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm feeling a significant lack of mid stroke support with my Lyric Charger 2, 180mm travel. Im 166# nekked with a 45# spring, don't ride with a heavy pack. The HBO does help, the bottom out is well controlled. Its about 85% closed now. I don't think that closing it more will help with what I'm after. For example, when landing medium sized drops (5-6') the fork takes the initial hit beautifully, but then continues to just drop another 40mm (guessing here) from where it could happily stop. I bought my setup pretty shortly after Vorsprung updated the spring chart. I'm wondering if I should have gotten the 50# spring? I can't change HSC on the fork. I have added some LSC, but it does not seem to help a lot with this issue. I can definitely run way more LSC with the coil vs air. Over all very happy with the Smashpot. Just one last detail to dial.

Also, this thing makes a ton of noise. Its not loud, no harsh sounds, no rattle like something is loose, no top-out or bottom out noise; but just a lot of clanging around. Any tips on that?


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

For your lack of mid stroke support, is that only happening when getting big hits or like square hits ? Maybe adding some hsc would prevent that ?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Monster Truck said:


> I'm feeling a significant lack of mid stroke support with my Lyric Charger 2, 180mm travel. Im 166# nekked with a 45# spring, don't ride with a heavy pack. The HBO does help, the bottom out is well controlled. Its about 85% closed now. I don't think that closing it more will help with what I'm after. For example, when landing medium sized drops (5-6') the fork takes the initial hit beautifully, but then continues to just drop another 40mm (guessing here) from where it could happily stop. I bought my setup pretty shortly after Vorsprung updated the spring chart. I'm wondering if I should have gotten the 50# spring? I can't change HSC on the fork. I have added some LSC, but it does not seem to help a lot with this issue. I can definitely run way more LSC with the coil vs air. Over all very happy with the Smashpot. Just one last detail to dial.
> 
> Also, this thing makes a ton of noise. Its not loud, no harsh sounds, no rattle like something is loose, no top-out or bottom out noise; but just a lot of clanging around. Any tips on that?


Read up on the HC97 damper upgrade. Maybe it's what you're looking for?


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Monster Truck said:


> I'm feeling a significant lack of mid stroke support with my Lyric Charger 2, 180mm travel. Im 166# nekked with a 45# spring, don't ride with a heavy pack. The HBO does help, the bottom out is well controlled. Its about 85% closed now. I don't think that closing it more will help with what I'm after. For example, when landing medium sized drops (5-6') the fork takes the initial hit beautifully, but then continues to just drop another 40mm (guessing here) from where it could happily stop. I bought my setup pretty shortly after Vorsprung updated the spring chart. I'm wondering if I should have gotten the 50# spring? I can't change HSC on the fork. I have added some LSC, but it does not seem to help a lot with this issue. I can definitely run way more LSC with the coil vs air. Over all very happy with the Smashpot. Just one last detail to dial.
> 
> Also, this thing makes a ton of noise. Its not loud, no harsh sounds, no rattle like something is loose, no top-out or bottom out noise; but just a lot of clanging around. Any tips on that?


If you're finding the fork feels like it's overshooting the mark on compressions, that's where more HSC can definitely help. A firmer spring rate may also be beneficial (especially given that your idea of a "medium size" drop is 5-6ft, most people would consider that a pretty sizeable hit!). A revalve or alternative damper upgrade (Avalanche cart or Push HC97) might work well for you with regards to getting more HSC support - the stock Charger2 dampers are lacking there.

As far as the noise - is there any specific situation you're finding it noisy in? Can you replicate it in any way whilst off the bike, by banging the front wheel around at different angles? Shoot me an email (steve at vorsprung suspension dot com) with all the info you can give me on the noise and we'll get that sorted, it should be pretty quiet.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Monster Truck said:


> I'm feeling a significant lack of mid stroke support with my Lyric Charger 2, 180mm travel. Im 166# nekked with a 45# spring, don't ride with a heavy pack. The HBO does help, the bottom out is well controlled. Its about 85% closed now. I don't think that closing it more will help with what I'm after. For example, when landing medium sized drops (5-6') the fork takes the initial hit beautifully, but then continues to just drop another 40mm (guessing here) from where it could happily stop. I bought my setup pretty shortly after Vorsprung updated the spring chart. I'm wondering if I should have gotten the 50# spring? I can't change HSC on the fork. I have added some LSC, but it does not seem to help a lot with this issue. I can definitely run way more LSC with the coil vs air. Over all very happy with the Smashpot. Just one last detail to dial.
> 
> Also, this thing makes a ton of noise. Its not loud, no harsh sounds, no rattle like something is loose, no top-out or bottom out noise; but just a lot of clanging around. Any tips on that?


I am not sure, but I expect no fork to take 5-6' drop without using the major part of the fork travel? If you still not use full on HBC, it should be fine.

Are you sure the noise is not coming from to little preload? Mine had a few mm preload set from the dealer. Would think that could make it rattle if the spring was to loose?


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## Monster Truck (Sep 17, 2009)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I’ll look into a damper fix. On the noise, I’ll double check the preload. If I come up with anything I will get back with you.


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## Monster Truck (Sep 17, 2009)

Spring preload was light. I added a spacer, seems quieter now. 

Thanks

Gonna try the 50 spring. I think that will most directly addresses my issue. I’m worried that more HSC could make it harsh. I’m running plenty of LSC to back off on if the stiffer spring makes smalll bump worse.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Anyone have a 55 or 60 pound spring they’re interested in trading for a 50? Used once. Thanks.


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## Dr.Flow (Jul 6, 2011)

Monster Truck said:


> Spring preload was light. I added a spacer, seems quieter now.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Gonna try the 50 spring. I think that will most directly addresses my issue. I'm worried that more HSC could make it harsh. I'm running plenty of LSC to back off on if the stiffer spring makes smalll bump worse.


I recommend reading Steve's post on the matter from 3 weeks ago.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Monster Truck said:


> Spring preload was light. I added a spacer, seems quieter now.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Gonna try the 50 spring. I think that will most directly addresses my issue. I'm worried that more HSC could make it harsh. I'm running plenty of LSC to back off on if the stiffer spring makes smalll bump worse.


Try a firmer spring. I have found it much better to use only HSC and LSC as little as possible. I am using the firmest spring in my 160mm fork. I am sure you will benefit from a firmer spring, and it will not be harsh if you try to avoid to much compression damping, especially LSC.


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

Anyone willing to sell a 45 lbs spring ? I'm in Canada, I'd obiously pay the shipping


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## Monster Truck (Sep 17, 2009)

Charlo489 said:


> Anyone willing to sell a 45 lbs spring ? I'm in Canada, I'd obiously pay the shipping


My 50 just went out yesterday. I can ship my 45 when the 50 gets here next week. PM if that works.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Someone mentioned setting up an exchange system on this or another forum. Does anyone know if has been set up?


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## hvmatt (Jan 1, 2019)

I've just replaced my two step Lyrik air spring with the Smashpot set at 170mm on my Trek Slash and it is awesome.We ended up using 10 wt oil not 20 wt as the damper was probably hydrolocking and coming to a harsh stop 50-60 mm out from full travel.Its cold here in winter so maybe the oil gets super treaclely.My local shop thinks it may be a case of seasonal oil changes which is fine.


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## Chriso82 (May 16, 2019)

Hi does any one have a 60 weight spring for sale Thanks


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

So I'm using a 40lbs spring in my lyrik rc2 and blowing through all the travel quite easily (180mm). I tried using 2 clicks of hsc and 6-7 clicks of lsc but it seems to be doing nothing. Anyway, for you guys out there that went with a stiffer spring, did you notice any improvement ?


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

I ordered a 45# spring, if anyone wanna buy my 40# for half the price let me know ! 3 rides on it only


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

I have a 70# spring if anyone is interested.


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## k-addicted (Aug 1, 2011)

@steve. I went with a softer spring and the fork feels great. I finish my average ride with 10-15% of unused travel. 

My question is about the HBO. I’ve been running it open and still having 10-15% of reserve travel at the end of my rides. Is the HBO adjustment only used if you’re bottoming out or does it make sense to add some?


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

k-addicted said:


> @steve. I went with a softer spring and the fork feels great. I finish my average ride with 10-15% of unused travel.
> 
> My question is about the HBO. I've been running it open and still having 10-15% of reserve travel at the end of my rides. Is the HBO adjustment only used if you're bottoming out or does it make sense to add some?


This is why I will only run a Coil fork with HSC adjustment!!


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## k-addicted (Aug 1, 2011)

bmwzimmer said:


> This is why I will only run a Coil fork with HSC adjustment!!


Finally bottomed it out on a very abrupt transition on a steep roller. I'll add 3 clicks for now. If I bottom out in the future I'll add more. Makes a hell of a noise on a bottom out. I thought I broke something.


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## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

k-addicted said:


> Finally bottomed it out on a very abrupt transition on a steep roller. I'll add 3 clicks for now. If I bottom out in the future I'll add more. Makes a hell of a noise on a bottom out. I thought I broke something.


yeah this happened to me this weekend. i thought something literally broke as well. sounded like a stick snapped.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

If anyone changing springs wants to make it easier on themselves, I slid an o-ring on to the shaft which I can poke down to the top of the cartridge so it doesn't fall back down inside the fork while you put the new spring in. Bit easier than feeding a cable through IMO


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

k-addicted said:


> Finally bottomed it out on a very abrupt transition on a steep roller. I'll add 3 clicks for now. If I bottom out in the future I'll add more. Makes a hell of a noise on a bottom out. I thought I broke something.


The Smashpot itself doesn't bottom out such that it physically limits the travel with a hard stop, that's taken care of by the fork's stanchions engaging with the bottom out bumpers. You can test this for yourself by pulling the spring out and bottoming the fork by hand. If you're bottoming hard enough that you can hear more than a dull thud then what you're hearing is coming from elsewhere (can even be CSU or headset making sharp cracking noises). But you are on the right track with adding HBO there - it will help prevent that harsh impact either way.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Fox and Pike/Lyrik don't have much of a bottom-out pad and the Fox ones can end up wedged up in the stanchion:

__
http://instagr.am/p/Bc8ctHpl9Kh/


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## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

Steve VS said:


> The Smashpot itself doesn't bottom out such that it physically limits the travel with a hard stop, that's taken care of by the fork's stanchions engaging with the bottom out bumpers. You can test this for yourself by pulling the spring out and bottoming the fork by hand. If you're bottoming hard enough that you can hear more than a dull thud then what you're hearing is coming from elsewhere (can even be CSU or headset making sharp cracking noises). But you are on the right track with adding HBO there - it will help prevent that harsh impact either way.


thats exactly what i heard - it sounded like i snapped a big stick. so will need to change my settings. is there doco online explaining how to do this?


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

onawave said:


> thats exactly what i heard - it sounded like i snapped a big stick. so will need to change my settings. is there doco online explaining how to do this?


Turn the bottoming resistance adjuster in the + direction (clockwise as you're looking at it, ie with the bike upside down).


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Steve VS said:


> Turn the bottoming resistance adjuster in the + direction (clockwise as you're looking at it, ie with the bike upside down).


Lol


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## Chriso82 (May 16, 2019)

I have a smashpot for sale if anyone is interested? comes with a 55lbs spring. Only used for 2 rides. Reason for sale I am having a big knee op and can't ride for quite a while.


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## fizzywater (Oct 1, 2005)

Finally had time to install the coil kit and one proper ride in the books and have to say pretty happy so far. Using the 40 spring on a 2018 Pike RCT3 160mm on my YT Jeffsy 27 160mm rear travel (rider weight 145-150 lbs without gear). The 2 hour ride had a bit of everything with lots of high speed singletrack, a few high speed rocky sections and a few proper short rock gardens, but no big drops or hucks to flat. Ran LSC fully open, but with more rebound damping (8-9 clicks from open) compared to the air setup (6-7 clicks). Everything felt better. Way more suppleness and compliance, both when going slow and fast, yet also more supportive and less diving. Max. use of travel was 130mm, which is perfectly fine in my book. Once I do 3 foot drops or hucks to flat, I think I'll be using all travel and may utilize the HBO feature. Only negative was slight handling imbalance front and back when catching air, but I am sure I will adjust over time (may still speed up rebound by 1 or 2 clicks). Two thumbs way up!


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## Shredur (Apr 10, 2017)

Chriso82 said:


> I have a smashpot for sale if anyone is interested? comes with a 55lbs spring. Only used for 2 rides. Reason for sale I am having a big knee op and can't ride for quite a while.


How much?


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## Chriso82 (May 16, 2019)

Hi I am open to sensible offers. my number is 07855092732


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Chriso82 said:


> I have a smashpot for sale if anyone is interested? comes with a 55lbs spring. Only used for 2 rides. Reason for sale I am having a big knee op and can't ride for quite a while.


Selling the rest of the bike too?


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## Chriso82 (May 16, 2019)

robmac48 said:


> Selling the rest of the bike too?


Hi no sorry


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## louf (Jul 17, 2015)

Chriso82 said:


> Hi I am open to sensible offers. my number is 07855092732


where are you


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## Chriso82 (May 16, 2019)

louf said:


> where are you


worcestershire uk


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

If anyone wants a 50lb spring - same deal I got - 1/2 price plus shipping. Installed while I was injured so maybe a week of paved bike path on it. PM me. Cheers.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Carl Mega said:


> If anyone wants a 50lb spring - same deal I got - 1/2 price plus shipping. Installed while I was injured so maybe a week of paved bike path on it. PM me. Cheers.


If you are cool with postage to Australia I'll take it.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Did convert back to air on a Fox 36 Elite (black stanchions). Everything seemed okay, and it holds air well. By the look inside the inner tube, there where no visible score or scratches from the spring. 

The reason for taking off the fork in the first place, was to upgrade to a Fox36 Kashima. Did mount it and have had a couple of rides on it with air only. 
Some interesting behavior appeared immediately. The rebound was all to fast on the new fork (with same settings), that is supposed to the air was ramping up and increased the speed compared to the Smashpot coil kit. Another surprisingly behavior was that the air fork stays higher in travel then the coil? A bit disappointed by the little difference between the coil and air set up.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Did convert back to air on a Fox 36 Elite (black stanchions). Everything seemed okay, and it holds air well. By the look inside the inner tube, there where no visible score or scratches from the spring.
> 
> The reason for taking off the fork in the first place, was to upgrade to a Fox36 Kashima. Did mount it and have had a couple of rides on it with air only.
> Some interesting behavior appeared immediately. The rebound was all to fast on the new fork (with same settings), that is supposed to the air was ramping up and increased the speed compared to the Smashpot coil kit. Another surprisingly behavior was that the air fork stays higher in travel then the coil? A bit disappointed by the little difference between the coil and air set up.


Take it to a serius bike park. Make 10 lift assisted descents and you will feel the difference


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Anyone using the Smashpot kit, have measured their available travel? I have measured 153mm travel on my 160mm Fox 36. The "missing" 7mm is from the negative spring. Interesting to hear from other riders and what is measured.

I did not know before I compared to a friend that uses the same bike and fork, with original air set up.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

nikon255 said:


> Take it to a serius bike park. Make 10 lift assisted descents and you will feel the difference


Actually I will think that machine made bike park tracks are more suited for air. Smoother surface and harder hits and landings, will be better off with a fork that ramps up in the end stroke.

My experience is that the coil is better on the rougher trails and that it tracks better on roots, rocks and rough surfaces.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Actually I will think that machine made bike park tracks are more suited for air. Smoother surface and harder hits and landings, will be better off with a fork that ramps up in the end stroke.
> 
> My experience is that the coil is better on the rougher trails and that it tracks better on roots, rocks and rough surfaces.


Bikeparks are rough. Coil is blessing when u make dozens of lift assisted runs the same day. Before I hit bikeparks every fork and shock was great


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Anyone using the Smashpot kit, have measured their available travel? I have measured 153mm travel on my 160mm Fox 36. The "missing" 7mm is from the negative spring. Interesting to hear from other riders and what is measured.
> 
> I did not know before I compared to a friend that uses the same bike and fork, with original air set up.


Yeah, my 180mm Fox 36 measures around 174 usable travel. If I pull down on the lowers I can get it to extend to the 180mm. A little annoying but the fork feels great, wish there was a way to get the full 180mm.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Tree said:


> Yeah, my 180mm Fox 36 measures around 174 usable travel. If I pull down on the lowers I can get it to extend to the 180mm. A little annoying but the fork feels gr[SUP][/SUP]eat, wish there was a way to get the full 180mm.


Just changed to 170mm settings. Before I measured 173 mm visible stanchions. Afterwards it only measured a couple of millimeter more. That is to me more correct set up then before, where I had only 163 mm visible stanchions and that gives only 153mm travel. Now it should be at least 160mm available travel.


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

I'm curious if you measured axle to crown and compared to Fox published number? Or measured exposed stanchion for air? Because I believe I've seen posts saying same thing for air setup. And the answer was that bottom out bumpers are another few mm. And bottom out bumpers cannot be easily compressed by hand.
In any case if not at 180mm already just increase the travel.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

I am not sure if this is question related to my measurements?
Visible stanchions before and after coil conversion should be valid. The Fox 36 have 10mm visible stanchions after bottom out. 
There seem to be different measurements from different model year and models of Fox 36 too, but all have more or less 10mm left before bottom out.

To me it was much better to use next step on travel setting on the Smashpot kit to obtain the available travel. 
It seems to be the top out spring that is "stealing" approx 7mm of travel, so to me it gave 7mm less travel. I am better off adding 10millimeters of travel and have +3mm in total.



ben_mtb said:


> I'm curious if you measured axle to crown and compared to Fox published number? Or measured exposed stanchion for air? Because I believe I've seen posts saying same thing for air setup. And the answer was that bottom out bumpers are another few mm. And bottom out bumpers cannot be easily compressed by hand.
> In any case if not at 180mm already just increase the travel.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Take coil out, bottom fork, put it back, lift front wheel measure distance seal-oring. Share with us


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

nikon255 said:


> Take coil out, bottom fork, put it back, lift front wheel measure distance seal-oring. Share with us


Nikon255, that's exactly how I came up with my useable travel. 
I have the Smashpot set at 180mm but only getting approximately 174mm actual travel.
If I pull down on the lowers I can extend it to the 180mm. Like Rumblefish said, the top out spring must be the culprit.

Maybe Steve will chime in.


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

Maybe theres some kind of bumper or HBO works.


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## Evo6 (May 11, 2019)

Hi first post on here. I have lots off suspension experience from motocross and always have stuck with fox on my mtb bikes. I have the YT Capra pro race carbon and 2018 spec fox 36 and x2 on rear, which I had on a Carbon giant reign which was very good but not as good as the YT. The damping always was good but wanted to try coil so ordered a smashpot with 55lb spring and a fox x2dh shock with 500lb spring and straight away was impressed but wasn't using full travel as 180mm spec both ends. So ordered 470lb spring and 50lb front and set camera to video suspension travel and now rear using all 85% off the time and great feel but only using 170mm on front. Now the air bottom wouldn't allow full travel as the rubber bump stop would limit but as this is now gone its still not using full travel as I ride a course in a forest that is set to bottom out once a circuit, and even with all damping wound out as this is a RC2 fit4 2018 fox 36mm it still would bottom out and on camera it shows this so its not spring bind as Steve has said it would have to be over 200mm. I would never go back to air as in motocross they went this way and KTM are still there but for how long as the best std forks are the SSS Yamaha forks and have been for years. The weight doesn't bother me as fork feel and feed back has always been important, I might try the the new RC2 Grip2 setup but still fiddling with what I have now and have great feel on long berms where I found the air 36 lacked, ok good hold up but no feel.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Yeah, I will. Did it with 160mm travel set up, and it was 153mm travel. I will be surprised if it is not 10mm more, when I have added main spacer with 10mm, and taken out 10mm top out spacer, from the Smashpot kit???:eekster:



nikon255 said:


> Take coil out, bottom fork, put it back, lift front wheel measure distance seal-oring. Share with us


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## Evo6 (May 11, 2019)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Yeah, I will. Did it with 160mm travel set up, and it was 153mm travel. I will be surprised if it is not 10mm more, when I have added main spacer with 10mm, and taken out 10mm top out spacer, from the Smashpot kit???:eekster:


Yes just back from forest and 170mm off travel used not 180mm.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

brash said:


> If you are cool with postage to Australia I'll take it.


I can look into it but I think your $ outlay for shipping is going to be prohibitive. PM me if want me to check.


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

Is it normal to hear a top out noise when lifting the wheel off the ground ? My rebound is about 5 clicks from fully open. I can eleminate the top out noise by adding more rebound damping but I don't want to ride it that way. Any help ?


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## Evo6 (May 11, 2019)

Charlo489 said:


> Is it normal to hear a top out noise when lifting the wheel off the ground ? My rebound is about 5 clicks from fully open. I can eleminate the top out noise by adding more rebound damping but I don't want to ride it that way. Any help ?


There will be a oil lock or a rubber top out bumper it depends what fork you have, you need more info because the 2018Fox 36 has a top out noise so there is a modified top out rubber.


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

It's a 2019 lyrik rc2, 180mm


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## Evo6 (May 11, 2019)

Charlo489 said:


> It's a 2019 lyrik rc2, 180mm


Well, done a search and your forks are prone to top out noise so might need a service. Its one off the reasons I stick with Fox suspension as they have been in suspension since the 70s and if a bike I by has some other make off suspension I sell on and put on my Fox kit which I service and keep spares myself.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Anyone tried a lower viscosity oil in their smashpot yet? I am aware the HBO can be shimmed, but thought this may be a quicker/easier fix. 

It's almost no linear enough for me with a 55lb spring, and I fear going 50lb will result in a stinkbug geo setup. My HBO is completely open.

On a trail ride I'd be lucky to use 140mm of my 170, and this isn't a leisurely ride by any means. When I head to the Downhill tracks or bike park might use another 10-15mm more which is OK. 

It seems like there is a harshness when the HBO engages, and perhaps the lighter oil may remedy this.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

brash said:


> Anyone tried a lower viscosity oil in their smashpot yet? I am aware the HBO can be shimmed, but thought this may be a quicker/easier fix.
> 
> It's almost no linear enough for me with a 55lb spring, and I fear going 50lb will result in a stinkbug geo setup. My HBO is completely open.
> 
> ...


If you're only using around 140mm of 170mm available travel, you do need a softer spring. The difference in spring rate between a 55 and a 50 isn't that drastic, it's 10% or so, it'll change your sag from say 20% to 22% - not big numbers. Keep in mind that it takes more than 20mm from the beginning of its engagement (50mm or so from bottom out) until the HBO is developing full force, so it will be having VERY little effect on travel use in your case. Light oil or revalving won't help with where you currently stand, that is for sure a spring rate concern.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Charlo489 said:


> Is it normal to hear a top out noise when lifting the wheel off the ground ? My rebound is about 5 clicks from fully open. I can eleminate the top out noise by adding more rebound damping but I don't want to ride it that way. Any help ?


Check that your preload is appropriate. If there's free play (completely un-sprung free movement) at the top of the travel, it's due to insufficient preload, but if it's coming back with a noticeable clunk, too much may be the issue. If you have one of the first batch of kits sold (before approx end of February 2019) you may need the updated topout spacer. If so, shoot me an email, steve at vorpsrung suspension dot com.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Tree said:


> Nikon255, that's exactly how I came up with my useable travel.
> I have the Smashpot set at 180mm but only getting approximately 174mm actual travel.
> If I pull down on the lowers I can extend it to the 180mm. Like Rumblefish said, the top out spring must be the culprit.
> 
> Maybe Steve will chime in.


From emailing with Ole (Rumblefish) I'm still a little unclear on exactly what the issue is in his case, but he is running aftermarket seals which protrude quite a bit further up from the lowers than the stock SKF ones. If you're in the same boat, that might be the issue. You should have (with SKF seals) nominal fork travel plus approx 3-8mm exposed stanchion (measured to crown, not o-ring) on a Fox fork, and nominal travel plus approx 1-5mm exposed stanchion on a Rockshox fork. The Smashpots are designed to reach soft topout at the beginning of the topout spring's engagement, ie pulling down should extend the fork beyond the nominal travel, not TO the nominal travel.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

Tree said:


> Nikon255, that's exactly how I came up with my useable travel.
> I have the Smashpot set at 180mm but only getting approximately 174mm actual travel.
> If I pull down on the lowers I can extend it to the 180mm. Like Rumblefish said, the top out spring must be the culprit.
> 
> Maybe Steve will chime in.


From emailing with Ole (Rumblefish) I'm still a little unclear on exactly what the issue is in his case, but he is running aftermarket seals which protrude quite a bit further up from the lowers than the stock SKF ones. If you're in the same boat, that might be the issue. You should have (with SKF seals) nominal fork travel plus approx 3-8mm exposed stanchion (measured to crown, not o-ring) on a Fox fork, and nominal travel plus approx 1-5mm exposed stanchion on a Rockshox fork. The Smashpots are designed to reach soft topout at the beginning of the topout spring's engagement, ie pulling down should extend the fork beyond the nominal travel, not TO the nominal travel.

The reason I suggest using exposed stanchion rather than the o-ring is because getting the o-ring all the way to full travel requires full compression of the ~6mm thick bottom out bumper.


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

Steve VS said:


> From emailing with Ole (Rumblefish) I'm still a little unclear on exactly what the issue is in his case, but he is running aftermarket seals which protrude quite a bit further up from the lowers than the stock SKF ones. If you're in the same boat, that might be the issue. You should have (with SKF seals) nominal fork travel plus approx 3-8mm exposed stanchion (measured to crown, not o-ring) on a Fox fork, and nominal travel plus approx 1-5mm exposed stanchion on a Rockshox fork. The Smashpots are designed to reach soft topout at the beginning of the topout spring's engagement, ie pulling down should extend the fork beyond the nominal travel, not TO the nominal travel.
> 
> The reason I suggest using exposed stanchion rather than the o-ring is because getting the o-ring all the way to full travel requires full compression of the ~6mm thick bottom out bumper.


So the way I came up with the usable travel was by removing the spring and forcefully compressed the fork to a hard bottom out. It audibly made a clank noise, almost metal to metal sound.
Then I put the spring back in and measured from the top of the stock seal to the o-ring and came up with 174mm.
I even found a sizable drop and purposely landed nose heavy and bottomed out the fork and came up with the same measurement.
If I pull down on the lowers I can get the 180mm.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Steve VS said:


> If you're only using around 140mm of 170mm available travel, you do need a softer spring. The difference in spring rate between a 55 and a 50 isn't that drastic, it's 10% or so, it'll change your sag from say 20% to 22% - not big numbers. Keep in mind that it takes more than 20mm from the beginning of its engagement (50mm or so from bottom out) until the HBO is developing full force, so it will be having VERY little effect on travel use in your case. Light oil or revalving won't help with where you currently stand, that is for sure a spring rate concern.


Thanks mate, Ordered a 50lb through NSD keen to give it a go.


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

So I did a lower servicing after 6 weeks of riding with my coil kit in my lyrik rc2. Everything was in good order, I oiled and lubed the foam rings and wiper seals but I noticed that when compressing the fork slowly, it sticks quite a lot. Kinda hard to explain but the fork compresses a bit, then it sticks, compresses again...sticks again and so on...very uneven movement. I compared it to my friends old Pike (with air spring) and his is buttersmooth...what the hell ?? I don't notice anything when riding though but I figured this stiction can't be good


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## FollowingMB (Jan 10, 2019)

Anyone have a 60 lb coil they aren't using? I will have a 65 lb I could trade if interested.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

Can some of You share or link comparisom to Push when speaking of F36?


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Steve VS said:


> From emailing with Ole (Rumblefish) I'm still a little unclear on exactly what the issue is in his case, but he is running aftermarket seals which protrude quite a bit further up from the lowers than the stock SKF ones. If you're in the same boat, that might be the issue. You should have (with SKF seals) nominal fork travel plus approx 3-8mm exposed stanchion (measured to crown, not o-ring) on a Fox fork, and nominal travel plus approx 1-5mm exposed stanchion on a Rockshox fork. The Smashpots are designed to reach soft topout at the beginning of the topout spring's engagement, ie pulling down should extend the fork beyond the nominal travel, not TO the nominal travel.
> 
> The reason I suggest using exposed stanchion rather than the o-ring is because getting the o-ring all the way to full travel requires full compression of the ~6mm thick bottom out bumper.


Steve, I have checked with original seals and the aftermarket seals, and still there is 6-7mm difference in travel, between air and coil setup.
I am sure the difference is the top out spring on the Smashpot, since I get the last 6mm, when pulling the stanchions apart.

So for me it made more sense to add 10mm travel to my 160mm original. That gives me 164mm available travel, instead of 154mm. That should have been perfect if it had been 5mm spacers, so it could be set at 159mm, but since I am having the sense of benefitting from getting extra ride height or higher dynamic sag, it is perfect.


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## Tree (Jan 27, 2004)

So the way I came up with the usable travel was by removing the spring and forcefully compressed the fork to a hard bottom out. It audibly made a clank noise, almost metal to metal sound.
Then I put the spring back in and measured from the top of the stock seal to the o-ring and came up with 174mm.
I even found a sizable drop and purposely landed nose heavy and bottomed out the fork and came up with the same measurement.
If I pull down on the lowers I can get the 180mm,


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## Evo6 (May 11, 2019)

Tree said:


> So the way I came up with the usable travel was by removing the spring and forcefully compressed the fork to a hard bottom out. It audibly made a clank noise, almost metal to metal sound.
> Then I put the spring back in and measured from the top of the stock seal to the o-ring and came up with 174mm.
> I even found a sizable drop and purposely landed nose heavy and bottomed out the fork and came up with the same measurement.
> If I pull down on the lowers I can get the 180mm,


Yes I have the same fork and 174mm is the max I can get. So I have backed out the bottom out control and the done my big drop off to bottom the forks and can get 180mm. I have serviced the fork a week ago and changed the oils and checked everything over and looked a great detail at the heat shrink but hasn't moved and preload is correct. So far I am very happy with the coil feed back on corners. Even with the bottom control backed out the impact isn't to crazy so tomorrow will slowly wind in the valve and see how we go.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Anyone converted a Bomber Z1?

I've got a new Bomber Z1 29 150mm, was planning to install an ACS3 that I bought used, but Push says it won't fit, so now I'm looking into a Vorsprung Smashpot which Vorsprung says will fit the Z1.

I'm 195# nakid, ride aggressively, but I'm an old guy so I stay closer to the ground these days, max drops 3-4', lots of chunder riding at speed, so I'm thinking 50# spring cuz I like it plush.

Anyone?

Also got that ACS3 160mm for a Fox 36 for sale, used, but complete, send a PM or maybe someone wants to trade??


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## hvmatt (Jan 1, 2019)

I originally had it set up with 20 wt oil and whilst the action was silky smooth the fork wasn't getting anywhere near full travel coming to a stop at the point the hydraulic bottom out valving was supposed to start to work even with it open all the way.I'm using the correct spring.We changed the oil to 10 wt and that solved the problem.Possibly the 20 wt. oil was too viscous at winter temperatures here in NZ and it was hydrolocking as it tried to go through the port(at least thats what my mechanic said-I'm not an engineer so actually clueless)Anyway it all works beautifully now.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Nurse Ben said:


> Anyone converted a Bomber Z1?
> 
> I've got a new Bomber Z1 29 150mm, was planning to install an ACS3 that I bought used, but Push says it won't fit, so now I'm looking into a Vorsprung Smashpot which Vorsprung says will fit the Z1.
> 
> ...


I've done my 36 Rhythm which is the same fork in black.

Im at 55lb at 170mm 29er with no LSC and No Hydraulic Bottom out, it's nice. 225lb body weight.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

brash said:


> I've done my 36 Rhythm which is the same fork in black.
> 
> Im at 55lb at 170mm 29er with no LSC and No Hydraulic Bottom out, it's nice. 225lb body weight.


Thanks, that sounds good, hate to "ruin" a brand new Bomber, but I got it cheap and I have another fork I can use when I want to go lightweight.

I'm lighter than you, so I'll start with a 45# spring and if it's too soft then #50 ...


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> Thanks, that sounds good, hate to "ruin" a brand new Bomber, but I got it cheap and I have another fork I can use when I want to go lightweight.
> 
> I'm lighter than you, so I'll start with a 45# spring and if it's too soft then #50 ...


I've settled on 45# @ 75kg/165lb and find it plenty plush but still has some kind of support/best all-round feel, ie good grip on slow speed rooty trails but still holds up on fast choppy tracks.

I would start someone at your weight on a 50# for an equivalent feel, based on what you describe. 45# would equate to ultra soft ie great on slow techy riding but nothing super aggressive.


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## mike156 (Jul 10, 2017)

Is it possible to swap the damper and spring around on a pike/lyrik, thus protecting the inside of the airspring stanchion with the coil on the right hand side?

Seems like they are identical other than the dimple in the left hand side?


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## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

mike156 said:


> Is it possible to swap the damper and spring around on a pike/lyrik, thus protecting the inside of the airspring stanchion with the coil on the right hand side?
> 
> Seems like they are identical other than the dimple in the left hand side?


Interesting thought. I do believe that the recess behind the circlip on the bottom of the inner legs are different. The charger damper doesn't use them, and neither does smashpot.


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## PurpleMtnSlayer (Jun 11, 2015)

Very interesting. I assume the spring shaft/lower interface is different because it kind of a pressfit.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

JohnnyC7 said:


> I've settled on 45# @ 75kg/165lb and find it plenty plush but still has some kind of support/best all-round feel, ie good grip on slow speed rooty trails but still holds up on fast choppy tracks.
> 
> I would start someone at your weight on a 50# for an equivalent feel, based on what you describe. 45# would equate to ultra soft ie great on slow techy riding but nothing super aggressive.


I'm getting it used with three springs (45, 50, 55), so I'll start with the 50# and see what happens. I'm liking the Grip Damper way better than the Fit4. Based on my reading the Grip is a Marzocchi designed product and is only slightly different from a Grip2, so I'm just gonna stick with it.

So to add the Vorsprung, all I need to do is drop the lowers, swap parts, change oil, and reassememble? Need new crush washers I'm assuming.

Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## two-one (Aug 7, 2008)

PurpleMtnSlayer said:


> Very interesting. I assume the spring shaft/lower interface is different because it kind of a pressfit.


A friend of mine once turned his 2007 rockshox Reba into a baRe... worked just fine!


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## mike156 (Jul 10, 2017)

two-one said:


> Interesting thought. I do believe that the recess behind the circlip on the bottom of the inner legs are different. The charger damper doesn't use them, and neither does smashpot.


Could be as my inspection was just a visual one, didn't make any measurements. I was surprised to see the inside of the damper leg was the same finish as the air spring side and that it had an circlip grove at all. Although, come to think of it, I've heard of people flipping the CSU around to get really low offsets too, which would mean the shafts will go in to either lower leg.

I wouldn't mind trying out a coil just to see the difference. I had a coil on the back of my bike for a while though and am back to air. Being 100% able to convert back to air would make trying it out much more doable.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

PurpleMtnSlayer said:


> Very interesting. I assume the spring shaft/lower interface is different because it kind of a pressfit.


Both sides are 10mm light press-fit. I can't think of any reason off-hand why this wouldn't work.
I have all the ingredients here to test it, but a bit short on time.


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## JPJonny (Dec 9, 2016)

Hi,
I've just installed the smashpod kit in my fox 36 few days ago, worked great till now.
Today the fork felt harsh after a while and I could hear a *klonk* noise at about 50% of travel, not sure if it was there when I installed it.
Any ideas what the noise could be? Could it be the point where the inner tube meets the topout-unit?



Gesendet von meinem EML-L29 mit Tapatalk


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Re: Swapping sides, the damper will go OK in the spring leg but the only small hangup is the rebound knob fouls on the brake mount part of the casting very slightly. Should be very simple to resolve though by turning down the knob a fraction



JPJonny said:


> Hi,
> I've just installed the smashpod kit in my fox 36 few days ago, worked great till now.
> Today the fork felt harsh after a while and I could hear a *klonk* noise at about 50% of travel, not sure if it was there when I installed it.
> Any ideas what the noise could be? Could it be the point where the inner tube meets the topout-unit?
> ...


Check the heatshrink hasn't moved, and if it has heat it up a bit more for a tighter fit


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Guerilla Gravity Shred Dog Size 3, long position, short lower cup, Marzocchi Bomber CR Coil 400#, Bomber Z1 Vorsprung Smashpot 50# spring 160mm Grip Damper. I'm 6', 195# plus kit.

Super easy install once I understood how everything goes together. Heavy as a coil fork, smooth as silk, plush as down. I once had an MRP Coil that I did not bond with, but this coil makes my heart sing. Considering that I really liked the Z1 with the air spring, the BomberCoilGrip combo is even better.

Still got some tinkering to do with bottom out damper and compression, but for the most part it's damn close to perfect out of the box. I might upgrade to a 55# spring, but I think I have enough compression damping and spring damping that a stiffer spring isn't necessary.


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Careful as the Lyrik's spring side lower leg is longer than the damper leg.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Re: Swapping sides, the damper will go OK in the spring leg but the only small hangup is the rebound knob fouls on the brake mount part of the casting very slightly. Should be very simple to resolve though by turning down the knob a fraction
> 
> Check the heatshrink hasn't moved, and if it has heat it up a bit more for a tighter fit


^ This.

I bought a used Smashpot from someone who didn't like it. When it arrived fully assembled, the shrink tube was covering the oil port and it didn't look it had slipped so much as it appears it was cut to long from the get go. Good for me cuz I get a used rig for cheap and it works awesome!

Heat shrinking should be done with a heat gun, carefully to avoid overheating the aluminum, and it should be redone when tweaking set up. A good heat shrink will be tight, oil will have evaporated off the components, and the wrap will clearly show indentations from the underlying parts.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Got some time on my Smashpot - I think it a solid product that performs as advertised. Just wanted to add to the chorus here in case someone was reading the thread and considering. I'm very pleased and happy I purchased it. If Steve decides to put out a low weight Ti spring, I'd get one as that would really make it a no brainer. 

Anyway: should anyone want to compare - what works for me:

170mm Lyrik RCT3 @ 64 degree HTA
40wt spring
rider weight 170lbs
Biased towards rock-gobbling chunk plush vs. massive big hits & sending it large

Also have a 50wt spring for sale should anyone need a it.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Carl Mega said:


> Got some time on my Smashpot - I think it a solid product that performs as advertised. Just wanted to add to the chorus here in case someone was reading the thread and considering. I'm very pleased and happy I purchased it. If Steve decides to put out a low weight Ti spring, I'd get one as that would really make it a no brainer.
> 
> Anyway: should anyone want to compare - what works for me:
> 
> ...


Seriously, the Smashpot just works, set it and forget it, no stiction, no noise, no issues.

In the beginning I wasn't using all my travel, had ~10-15mm remaining out of 160mm on tap, then this past weekend I hammered hard and what do you know, I used it all and didn't even notice it.

The bottom out damper works very well, super happy that it does what it's supposed to do, no mess, no fuss, no air.

I'm 195# nakid, running a 50# spring, 160mm travel, Bomber Z1, coil damping set at ~1/3, compression damping set at 1/4-1/3, rebound set at ~1/3.

Set it and forget it.

Edit: Adding a data point for folks looking at other options. I have never tried a Push ACS3, though I had one in my hands (didn't fit a Z1), but I have owned and ridden an MRP Ribbon Coil. As much as I wanted to like the Ribbon Coil, even after changing springs and tweaking repeatedly, I could never find the love. After the Ribbon Coil I messed with a lot of forks, Lyric Debonair 2, Fox 36 FIT4, Bomber Z1 GRIP, and the only fork that worked well for me was the Bomber Grip. The Vorsprung is better than all of the above, though, the Bomber Z1 as an air fork is pretty durn good for me.


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## NorthShoreDude (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm around 170 lbs on an Enduro EVO (160mm) and have the spring at 50 lbs. I have to run the bottom out almost max'd not to use full travel. Changing the spring to 60 lbs and to 170mm to stiffen things up a bit and lessen the HBO. Hoping for 15% sag.... the North Shore has some gnarly terrain! Stiffer=faster.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

NorthShoreDude said:


> I'm around 170 lbs on an Enduro EVO (160mm) and have the spring at 50 lbs. I have to run the bottom out almost max'd not to use full travel. Changing the spring to 60 lbs and to 170mm to stiffen things up a bit and lessen the HBO. Hoping for 15% sag.... the North Shore has some gnarly terrain! Stiffer=faster.


You should try running more compression damping. Over-springing is worse.

Why do you not want to use full travel?


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## NorthShoreDude (Feb 21, 2013)

I've tried more compression but it doesn't do that much.... with the 50lb spring I'm using the full suspension too much of the time. 60lb spring should be using full travel a lot less. Jordi from Fox recommends 15% to 20% sag so I should be on the lower end. I just feel more comfortable with a stiffer setup.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

NorthShoreDude said:


> I've tried more compression but it doesn't do that much.... with the 50lb spring I'm using the full suspension too much of the time. 60lb spring should be using full travel a lot less. Jordi from Fox recommends 15% to 20% sag so I should be on the lower end. I just feel more comfortable with a stiffer setup.


I'm sure you ride bigger and harder than me, but I have 25# on you and you think a 50# spring is too light, that just doesn't make sense. I could go to a 55# spring, but I'd lose the plushness of a coil.

The idea with compression damping is to control how the spring responds. Compression damping should do a lot, it should be able to lock your fork out. Perhaps your damper isn't working or it needs to be tuned?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

NorthShoreDude said:


> I've tried more compression but it doesn't do that much.... with the 50lb spring I'm using the full suspension too much of the time. 60lb spring should be using full travel a lot less. Jordi from Fox recommends 15% to 20% sag so I should be on the lower end. I just feel more comfortable with a stiffer setup.


What is your fork and damper? You may need a revalve.


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## NorthShoreDude (Feb 21, 2013)

Fox Rhythm that came stock on the EVO.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

NorthShoreDude said:


> Fox Rhythm that came stock on the EVO.


First step. Close the dial halfway and see how you like it.


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## NorthShoreDude (Feb 21, 2013)

Dougal said:


> First step. Close the dial halfway and see how you like it.


I have.... usually have it around 3/8 from Firm with the 50lb spring. It does lock out at the Firm setting so I'm assuming it works fine. Did a small ride with the 60lb and feels way better but will be riding some gnar tomorrow and will update.

been riding with the 50lb for around 5 months....


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

NorthShoreDude said:


> I have.... usually have it around 3/8 from Firm with the 50lb spring. It does lock out at the Firm setting so I'm assuming it works fine. Did a small ride with the 60lb and feels way better but will be riding some gnar tomorrow and will update.
> 
> been riding with the 50lb for around 5 months....


At my weight (and yours)/travel, Steve originally had the medium-starting spring weight at 50lbs (why I have it) but realized his test riders were hard rippers and he lowered the chart accordingly as most our regular Joe's here are not. I know I'm biased slightly to plush feel - moto tuning for my class as well... I use all my travel but in a good way. Maybe you are on a Richie Rude end of the spectrum and like a Firm feel but like Dougal implies - it's worth checking to see if your damper valving is serving you. Your eventual sweet spot might be on the 50-55 but with a compression tune to match.


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## NorthShoreDude (Feb 21, 2013)

Carl Mega said:


> At my weight (and yours)/travel, Steve originally had the medium-starting spring weight at 50lbs (why I have it) but realized his test riders were hard rippers and he lowered the chart accordingly as most our regular Joe's here are not. I know I'm biased slightly to plush feel - moto tuning for my class as well... I use all my travel but in a good way. Maybe you are on a Richie Rude end of the spectrum and like a Firm feel but like Dougal implies - it's worth checking to see if your damper valving is serving you. Your eventual sweet spot might be on the 50-55 but with a compression tune to match.


Had the first ride the 60 lb spring last night (also went from 160mm to 170mm so that makes it harder to bottom out as well). Took out the HBO to only 2 clicks in, and put the compression setting at around 1:00 position (I find lots of dampening makes for a harsher ride). The bike felt 100% better, night and day better. Almost used all the travel (within a mm or two). The bike was way more supportive in the chunk and just in general. Hard to explain but it just floated over the chunk and the compression on rock faces were a lot less harsh. Felt way more confident. Anyone want a 50lb spring?


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## Brianjonesphoto (Jan 23, 2005)

Just got my first ride on my smashpot and think I went too stiff. Anyone have a 55 they are not using or want to trade for a 60?

Thanks.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Steve, are you sure you dont want to revisit that Mattoc setup??


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

R_Pierce said:


> Steve, are you sure you dont want to revisit that Mattoc setup??


The lighter rate springs slide into a Mattoc Pro stanchion. The heavier ones should be too tight. That's as far as I got with checking to see what is possible.

Mattoc Comp has smaller ID stanchions than Pro and will be a no-go.

Then you've got the issue than Mattoc already has HBO. So the Smashpot adaption would only need to be a spring carrier.

Get started on the Mezzer if you want a coil project........


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Dougal said:


> The lighter rate springs slide into a Mattoc Pro stanchion. The heavier ones should be too tight. That's as far as I got with checking to see what is possible.
> 
> Mattoc Comp has smaller ID stanchions than Pro and will be a no-go.
> 
> ...


Don't shoot my dreams down like that Dougal! Lol. I would love to have that fork!

I know we have messed with this in the past in PM's. I just need to stop being so lazy and start messing around on my own.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

I am curious about the Mezzer. How is it riding and is it possible to use a coil kit on it? You have a HBO on that as well, so you need a coil spring assembly of some sort.



Dougal said:


> The lighter rate springs slide into a Mattoc Pro stanchion. The heavier ones should be too tight. That's as far as I got with checking to see what is possible.
> 
> Mattoc Comp has smaller ID stanchions than Pro and will be a no-go.
> 
> ...


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

mattoc stanchions are too small ID for 160mm stroke. Especially tapered diameter. Only spring made from aerospace material could work  That apply to standard spring. If you do something like vorsprung did - spring long from bottom of lowers to top cap that might work well. I can tell you that mattoc with coil is awsome at initial stroke. Air spring lacks some initital supplenes, but then nothing great happened. I hope mezzer will solve it


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

Hoping to get some insight/recommendations from y'all on how/whether Smashpot is my magic bullet.

I'm 220lbs after my morning pee, and feel like I just get punched in the face by mid to high speed rock/root sections. I'm in Utah, so we have terrain from steep and chunky alpine to Moab slickrock. 

Was on a 160mm Pike that I upgraded to the Debonair and Charger 2 internals. That made a big difference from stock, but was still pretty rough. Next, I ordered a DVO Onyx SC thinking their OTT spring might help by letting me run lower pressures. It's better than the Pike, but not dramatically. It's a bit divey and still pretty harsh in the chunk. 

I also have a 2018 Fox 36 HSC/LSC. So it's the FIT damper with HSC/LSC and HSR. I haven't spent much time with this fork, but it generally feels about the same as the others. Just toooo much high-speed chudder chatter. Since the DVO can't take a Smashpot, this is my likely upgrade route.

So Questions:
1) Is Smashpot upgrade on the Fox worth it without also changing the FIT damper? From other posts, seems like as a fatso I would probably benefit more from a revalve than just a different stock damper that is also not intended
2) My current ride seems to climb equally well at 160mm or 170mm (with air), any reason it would be different when coil?
3) How important is it to run a coil shock with the coil fork? Currently have an X2 or a DVO Topaz T3 (air) that will work. Any reason to prefer one over the other in this scenario?

Thanks!!


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

I'll give you a different advice. For high speed chatter start with tires. Put inserts like cushcore and run as low pressure as possible. In my experience that makes more difference. (Unless you've already done that of course).


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

ben_mtb said:


> I'll give you a different advice. For high speed chatter start with tires. Put inserts like cushcore and run as low pressure as possible. In my experience that makes more difference. (Unless you've already done that of course).


That's actually great input. I recently switched from i40mm wheels with 2.6" tires to some i30mm with 2.6s (both sets carbon, but not same brand). I had CushCore in the 40s, but I do not have them in the 30s. My tire pressure is a touch higher now and lowering it does help, but then the tire roll is not confidence inspiring. Plus I f^*&ing hate dealing with tire swaps with the CC.

But. I'll add it to the list of variables. I did like the feel of the CCs on the 40s, all things considered.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

The Fit Damper works well with air or coil. I'm suprised you don't like the 36 Grip better than the Pike, it's stiffer and has a better damper. Have you tried removing all the volume spacers?

There's no reason to match coil to coil, and in reality, the more travel you have, the more you'll get from a coil; ie makes more sense in a fork than a shock.

There will be no difference in climbing from coil to air, use the compression damper if that's your habit, otherwise just ride it.

Biggest difference from air to coil is small hit compliance and weight. The Smashpot is not some dainty shoed fairy, it'll add a pound to your front end and leave your wallet lighter.



halfjewjace said:


> Hoping to get some insight/recommendations from y'all on how/whether Smashpot is my magic bullet.
> 
> I'm 220lbs after my morning pee, and feel like I just get punched in the face by mid to high speed rock/root sections. I'm in Utah, so we have terrain from steep and chunky alpine to Moab slickrock.
> 
> ...


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

halfjewjace said:


> Hoping to get some insight/recommendations from y'all on how/whether Smashpot is my magic bullet.
> 
> I'm 220lbs after my morning pee, and feel like I just get punched in the face by mid to high speed rock/root sections. I'm in Utah, so we have terrain from steep and chunky alpine to Moab slickrock.
> 
> ...


Yes, IMO the Fox 36 with the Smashpot will be the "magic bullet." Getting the right spring is easy for some, but was a real process for me. There are a lot of factors involved and personal ride preferences play a big part as well. I can tell you it will be worth it and you will know when you hit your perfect spring rate. My advice would be to worry about the damper after the you get the Smashpot dialed. You likely will find you don't need to do anything with the damping beyond using the existing adjustments.

Just as with descending, the fork tracks the terrain better when climbing. Where I might have found it necessary with an air sprung fork to loft the front wheel on top of a rocky step up, I can "smash" through it now without bouncing off.

As ben-mtb points out, your tires are your first line of suspension. Getting them dialed is important for good control. However, they are just the initial contact. It's not going to make up for an air-sprung fork and its progressiveness. I personally think we were all sold a bill of goods for years because air forks were easier and cheaper to set up. In hindsight, for me trading performance for ease of setup was not worth it.

There is no requirement to run a coil shock with a coil fork. Opinions may vary, but my Following can't take a coil shock and I'm happy with the Monarch (after a shock Shock Wiz tune). The Pike Smashpot conversion has made a phenomenal difference for me.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Dougal said:


> First step. Close the dial halfway and see how you like it.


Dougal, in general would you say it makes sense to run open compression on a coil fork and coil shock for maximum plushness when riding downhill?

I feel like my shock and fork are dialed in pretty close, full open on both feels "synced", then when I need a little more support I add in a 1/4 turn of the 36 Grip and a few clicks on the Bomber CR.


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

Nurse Ben said:


> The Fit Damper works well with air or coil. I'm suprised you don't like the 36 Grip better than the Pike, it's stiffer and has a better damper. Have you tried removing all the volume spacers?
> 
> There's no reason to match coil to coil, and in reality, the more travel you have, the more you'll get from a coil; ie makes more sense in a fork than a shock.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the insight. I'll not worry about the shock yet. As a 220# rider, a pound here or there is not as big of a deal. I just wanna plow!

Since the DVO Onyx was between (and actually what I'm riding currently), I've never gone back-to-back with the 36 and the Pike. I'd say the 36 is about on par with the Onyx and both are improvements over the Pike. Certain things feel very good on the Onyx-particularly the first 50mm or so of travel with the OTT. But since I'm sagging about 35mm (20%), it gets into the non-OTT travel pretty quickly and feels pretty bad. The DVO guys have been very helpful at providing suggestions, but I'm where they think it should be and it's still not great. I might very well be too picky or expecting too much, but I hear people on this forum saying "magic carpet ride" and I just can't believe anybody would say that about how my current forks feel.


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

Chris2fur said:


> Yes, IMO the Fox 36 with the Smashpot will be the "magic bullet." Getting the right spring is easy for some, but was a real process for me. There are a lot of factors involved and personal ride preferences play a big part as well. I can tell you it will be worth it and you will know when you hit your perfect spring rate. My advice would be to worry about the damper after the you get the Smashpot dialed. You likely will find you don't need to do anything with the damping beyond using the existing adjustments.
> 
> Just as with descending, the fork tracks the terrain better when climbing. Where I might have found it necessary with an air sprung fork to loft the front wheel on top of a rocky step up, I can "smash" through it now without bouncing off.
> 
> ...


Thanks. That's really helpful stuff.

Another question: looking at the spring-rate chart, I'm 55lb in the medium setup and 50lb in the softer. If softer (50lbs) gets me "more compliance and grip," what is the practical drawback to choosing the spring that keeps me in range but on the softer table? I'll sag a bit more and need more bottom-out protection?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

halfjewjace said:


> Thanks for the insight. I'll not worry about the shock yet. As a 220# rider, a pound here or there is not as big of a deal. I just wanna plow!
> 
> Since the DVO Onyx was between (and actually what I'm riding currently), I've never gone back-to-back with the 36 and the Pike. I'd say the 36 is about on par with the Onyx and both are improvements over the Pike. Certain things feel very good on the Onyx-particularly the first 50mm or so of travel with the OTT. But since I'm sagging about 35mm (20%), it gets into the non-OTT travel pretty quickly and feels pretty bad. The DVO guys have been very helpful at providing suggestions, but I'm where they think it should be and it's still not great. I might very well be too picky or expecting too much, but I hear people on this forum saying "magic carpet ride" and I just can't believe anybody would say that about how my current forks feel.


So there is another thing about a coil thatyou may appreciate: There is no "getting into the non-OTT" travel, progression with a coil is linear, compression damping controls how fast you use travel, bottom out adds a little support in the last 10mm or so.

So yeah, you might like how the coil feels in that regard.

If you do get a coil out back, depending on the bike, you might need a progressive coil or a tune.

I run a Bomber CR Coil with a tune, I like it most days, but I'm not sure it's better than an air can, maybe in terms of bottom out and overall progression, but small hits are still a tad bumpy; could be the suspension design.


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

halfjewjace said:


> Thanks. That's really helpful stuff.
> 
> Another question: looking at the spring-rate chart, I'm 55lb in the medium setup and 50lb in the softer. If softer (50lbs) gets me "more compliance and grip," what is the practical drawback to choosing the spring that keeps me in range but on the softer table? I'll sag a bit more and need more bottom-out protection?


This is where some of the extra costs come in. You really won't know which spring is right until you ride it on your typical trails. I ended up way on the light sight of the spring recommendations, yet my sag is perfect, and I only use a little hydraulic bottom out.

The initial spring recommendations were based on some very skilled riders on pretty extreme trails. Spring recommendations were on the harder side. Based on feedback, Steve modified the chart so it should be pretty close.

My recommendation is if you are not frequently airborne, go with the "more compliance" option.


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

Chris2fur said:


> This is where some of the extra costs come in. You really won't know which spring is right until you ride it on your typical trails. I ended up way on the light sight of the spring recommendations, yet my sag is perfect, and I only use a little hydraulic bottom out.
> 
> The initial spring recommendations were based on some very skilled riders on pretty extreme trails. Spring recommendations were on the harder side. Based on feedback, Steve modified the chart so it should be pretty close.
> 
> My recommendation is if you are not frequently airborne, go with the "more compliance" option.


Pulled the trigger. 50lb spring which is on the soft chart. Figure I can take it to 180mm if it's too soft, lol.

I'm just planning to use Fox 20wt Gold unless there something else that would be better/preferable...


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

halfjewjace said:


> Pulled the trigger. 50lb spring which is on the soft chart. Figure I can take it to 180mm if it's too soft, lol.
> 
> I'm just planning to use Fox 20wt Gold unless there something else that would be better/preferable...


Sweet. Look forward to hearing your ride reports. I think the Fox Gold is good. Dougal has done a lot of independent oil testing so he would actually be the one to ask if anything would be gained by switching.


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

I’m trying to remove the smashpot from my Lyrik so i can up the travel from 160 to 180mm.

I unscrewed the top cap from the top and removed the nut and adjuster knob at the bottom and tried pulling it out but the bloody thing is stuck. Pulling on the top cap just pulls up the fork lowers along with it. 

What’s a good way to break the spring assembly free?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

Oh I remember I had to hit the bottom nut very hard with my mallet, I even called vorsprung st first because I was unable to remove the lowers. The guy said to hit harder with the mallet as it locks much harder than on the damper side.


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

Charlo489 said:


> Oh I remember I had to hit the bottom nut very hard with my mallet, I even called vorsprung st first because I was unable to remove the lowers. The guy said to hit harder with the mallet as it locks much harder than on the damper side.


Ok, but the needle or pin (that turns to adjust Bottom Out) is sticking out right there. Guess i'll thread the nut in partially which exposes the pin and put and adjustable wrench through the middle of it and hammer on the wrench?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Do yourself a favour. Cut the o-ring off your fork. Does it feel good? Do you have good grip? No harsh bottom outs? 

Those are the questions you need to ask yourself, not if it’s using that last 10mm or travel.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> Sweet. Look forward to hearing your ride reports. I think the Fox Gold is good. Dougal has done a lot of independent oil testing so he would actually be the one to ask if anything would be gained by switching.


Here's the pretty picture:









The RS 0W30 and 10wt lines are right on top of each other.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

bmwzimmer said:


> Ok, but the needle or pin (that turns to adjust Bottom Out) is sticking out right there. Guess i'll thread the nut in partially which exposes the pin and put and adjustable wrench through the middle of it and hammer on the wrench?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Put a socket over it


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## Evo6 (May 11, 2019)

I have been running the coil setup on my Fox 36 2018 RC2 180mm for 3 months riding 5 days a week so oil is FOX 20 and changed every month is a waste as its not getting very dirty so going to every 2 months. Even with new felt washers will last 2 months off heavy riding and racing.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

What is the deal that all measure their fork or shock for that matter, by the use of all travel? If I have a got a ride as hard as I possible, and I still have travel left, I am happy if I know that it was not necessary to use all the travel. I always want the left mm of travel in spare for the moments that it is really needed. 

Of course if you ride jumps and drops on the edge of what you are able to, all the time and still not use more then 70% of travel, I agree you are over sprung.


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## Evo6 (May 11, 2019)

I run 50ib spring and use 85% off travel all the time but can bottom out but have to push it hard. My HSC is 15 out and LSC 14 out and LSR 8. I would lower spring rate to 45ib as not using travel is a waste.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

What is the problem, if you like the feel of that spring?


Evo6 said:


> I run 50ib spring and use 85% off travel all the time but can bottom out but have to push it hard. My HSC is 15 out and LSC 14 out and LSR 8. I would lower spring rate to 45ib as not using travel is a waste.


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## Evo6 (May 11, 2019)

My training forest course I bottom out 3 times on same drop off as out today for my two and a half ride 1776 calories 134/166 bpm the fastest jump is taken at 18mphx3 times and suspension is so nice active and plush and rear coil 450ib DHX2 bottoms 3 times on this course.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

I do not know what bike you ride or weight, or trail for that matter. I still mean that if you occasionally bottom out fork it is fine. I am on a 75lb spring and I bottom out when doing the worst segments or if I miss something. Still I found the that when I tried the 70lb spring it was totally no go for me. The fork dived to much, sat to low in travel and I was using far to much travel to often. You want to change a spring from 50 to 45, that is almost 10% change. Mine change was 6,7% and still to big change. But by all means, you could manage pretty much with much more compression damping, so I could be wrong. But there is not only how often you bottom out, or use all travel that is the measurement for when to go softer.



Evo6 said:


> My training forest course I bottom out 3 times on same drop off as out today for my two and a half ride 1776 calories 134/166 bpm the fastest jump is taken at 18mphx3 times and suspension is so nice active and plush and rear coil 450ib DHX2 bottoms 3 times on this course.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't do spring-rate based on bottom-out. That's got way too many variables. I do spring-rate based on ride frequency and use compression damping to take out bump energy.

Ride frequency works well because faster and more aggressive riders naturally want a faster frequency and firmer springs.


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## Evo6 (May 11, 2019)

I ride a YT Capra carbon pro and come from a motocross background. I set my rear sag and don't bother with forks sag and both ends go up and down equal. I then contrate on LSC and then fine tune the hold up with HSC. I find that I run two o rings on the forks so I get a wipe affect and see what the forks are doing mid trail and then see if I bottom out one per circuit. Some days I am faster and it depends on weather like the past 3 days have been wet so only using 75% off travel. The coil rear shock I push the bump rubber to a position that will tell me how much travel I use on my fast jump.


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## scuba6388 (Apr 19, 2010)

Any idea what this will do for service intervals? Lyrik has 50 / 100 hr intervals. Seems like the air side is virtually no maintenance. Does going coil have an affect on full (damper) service intervals? Seems like it would have an affect. Kind of wondering in which direction.


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## scuba6388 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Service Intervals*

Any idea what this will do for service intervals? Lyrik has 50 / 100 hr intervals. Seems like the air side is virtually no maintenance. Does going coil have an effect on full (damper) service intervals?


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## Slurry (Dec 23, 2008)

Anyone have 50lb or 55lb smashpot springs they want to sell (USA)?

Anyone need a 65lb?


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

scuba6388 said:


> Does going coil have an effect on full (damper) service intervals?


No effect on the damper to first order. Maybe a small (second order) effect if the coil means you're going harder/faster and putting more wear and tear on the damper.

You'll still want to do the routine lowers & dust wipers service. Stiction from the wipers is a lot more noticeable when you eliminate the air side.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

I usually run my smashpot on my stumpjumper Evo but today I swapped the fork onto my Ebike (Merida e160 900e) holy crap that was a good idea. I think the steeper head angle of the ebike combined with the weight just made the fork magic. This bike is already well sorted with a 36 grip2 and tuned x2 in the rear. 

I liked the smashpot on the stumpy, but wasn’t totally blown away with it. It seems my issue is the spring rate is too high for a head angle this slack (63.5) 

I’m running a 55lb now. Would just dropping to a 50 be enough or get greedy and go for a 45 with some compression and HBO dialled on? 

No matter what your stance on ebikes are, one thing is for sure... the suspension definately works better on them.


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## JoCo (Mar 7, 2016)

Anyone heard any news on whether the Smashport is coming to DVO forks?


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

brash said:


> ...
> 
> No matter what your stance on ebikes are, one thing is for sure... the suspension definately works better on them.


Sounds like you have a setup issue. In no way does the method of propulsion effect the suspension behavior outside of the design constraints of building a system optimized for chainring size.

Now, if your bike is heavier on the same suspension setup, that is different. If your bike is faster on average or in spurts, that effects the performance too...but that is on you for setup on both fronts.

Glad you're happy with it though. Sounds like the ebike is just undersprung, which is ok and totally user preference.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

CharacterZero said:


> Sounds like you have a setup issue. In no way does the method of propulsion effect the suspension behavior outside of the design constraints of building a system optimized for chainring size.
> 
> Now, if your bike is heavier on the same suspension setup, that is different. If your bike is faster on average or in spurts, that effects the performance too...but that is on you for setup on both fronts.
> 
> Glad you're happy with it though. Sounds like the ebike is just undersprung, which is ok and totally user preference.


Yeah I was thinking it was an install issue by myself, that wasn't the case it seems. Must be spring rate too high for the stumpjumper.

the ebike is approx. 6kg heavier than the stumpjumper, so yeah it will have an effect for sure.

What I think is the difference mainly is the head angles of the bikes. The stumpy is 63.5 whereas the merida is 66.5. The more upright nature of the merida means the fork is more vertically compressed in relation to the ground.

So the fork is currently at 170mm with a 55lb spring, this is netting a 63.2 deg head angle in "high" flip chip on the stumpy which is too bananas for anything but extremely steep tracks. I'm thinking drop to a 50lb and set it up as a 160mm and try again. Sound reasonable?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

brash said:


> I usually run my smashpot on my stumpjumper Evo but today I swapped the fork onto my Ebike (Merida e160 900e) holy crap that was a good idea. I think the steeper head angle of the ebike combined with the weight just made the fork magic. This bike is already well sorted with a 36 grip2 and tuned x2 in the rear.
> 
> I liked the smashpot on the stumpy, but wasn't totally blown away with it. It seems my issue is the spring rate is too high for a head angle this slack (63.5)
> 
> ...


Sounds like you were oversprung. How heavy are you?


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Dougal said:


> Sounds like you were oversprung. How heavy are you?


100kg naked.

Interestingly your calculator recommended 55lb spring rate which isn't surprising.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

brash said:


> 100kg naked.
> 
> Interestingly your calculator recommended 55lb spring rate which isn't surprising.


How long ago was that? It went softer after a revision about July. Most 100kg riders are getting 50lb/in recommendations now on the free calculator. The advanced calculator takes into account variable wheelbase and head-angle.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Dougal said:


> How long ago was that? It went softer after a revision about July. Most 100kg riders are getting 50lb/in recommendations now on the free calculator. The advanced calculator takes into account variable wheelbase and head-angle.


back when you were doing it for free on a thread here. All good mate I'll invest in a 50lb.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

brash said:


> back when you were doing it for free on a thread here. All good mate I'll invest in a 50lb.


Found it. Old results were 55 lb/in fork and 580lb/in shock.

New results for the same info are 50lb/in fork and 600lb/in shock.


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

JoCo said:


> Anyone heard any news on whether the Smashport is coming to DVO forks?


I emailed vorsprung directly about this (I have a DVO Onyx) and they told me "no plans" for a DVO version. So I did the conversion on an older Fox 36. Incredible. Onyx is now for sale.


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

Chris2fur said:


> Sweet. Look forward to hearing your ride reports. I think the Fox Gold is good. Dougal has done a lot of independent oil testing so he would actually be the one to ask if anything would be gained by switching.


Alright!!

Spent the last 4 days in Sedona, AZ on the Smashpot. Highline, Hangover, Hog's area. Smashpot was incredible in every setting. It's everything everybody here says it is (IMO).

Details, for those who research things to death like I did:
Bike: 2019 SC Bronson, Large
Fork: 2018 Fox 36 HSC/LSC FIT Damper. Running at 170mm.
Shock: Fox x2 (now the week link)
Spring Rate: 50lbs (soft chart at 170mm)
Rider Weight: 220lbs
Oil: Fox Gold 20wt
Current Settings:
Rebound: 0 clicks out
HSC: 0 clicks out
LSR: 4 clicks out
BottomOut: 3 clicks

Comparing to DVO Onyx SC 170mm and the pre-conversion Fox 36.

Fork is magic-carpet smooth. Certainly feel the trail, but it's plush impact so its feedback without any harshness. I sprung on the lighter side, so there is *some* peddle bob when climbing and I think I need more LSR for technical climbing, low-speed boulder sections, etc.

Even sprung on the light end, it stays up in its travel and I'm rarely using ALL of the travel. I find it takes a pretty significant drop and even a bit of nose-heavy landing to really bottom it out. But really that just makes it feel like there is no bottom.

At speed, traction through everything has improved dramatically. Way less brakes, WAY less being knocked off line, and WAY WAY WAY less harshness.

I do get some top-out noise on the trail if I need to pull-up over an obstacle. For typical rocks where I'm just nosing up over, no top-out. But when, say, transitioning over a little gully or something, I do get an audible top-out on the pull. Doesn't bother me, but it's there. I set my preload to exactly 9mm (as recommended), but it did seem like 8mm would have worked without play. Perhaps that'd be enough to stop the noise. I'll play with that on the next oil change, I suppose.

You can definitely just smash into things. Lol. I was surprised how well it handles being smashed going uphill though. Climbing rocky ledges is now much more about just keeping the hammer down and just plowing up a ledge rather than having to first pop the front wheel over every obstacle.

I think the damper could use some additional tweaking. I found the fork would get buried a bit on consecutive low-speed rock roll-overs. So like picking through a rock-garden at low-speed it would get a bit farther into the travel and even pogo more than is ideal. Address that with compression or maybe a click of rebound?

I also found I can run higher front tire pressure without giving up plushness. I was pushing my luck on the low-psi front before trying to reduce harshness (18psi on 2.6 DHF with 30mm internal rim). After conversion, running 23psi. Much more predictable front end and still way more plush. Love it.

I wish the collar that you tighten when assembling the Smashpot didn't require a cone-wrench. Just put regular wrench flats on that part. Would make torquing MUCH easier and the cone wrench narrowness seems unnecessary.

All-in-all, very pumped.


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

I have a Wreckoning frame on the way and I have a lead on a cheap Bomber Z1. My question is will a Z1 with smashpot be better than if I just bought a ~$700 fork?


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

gus6464 said:


> I have a Wreckoning frame on the way and I have a lead on a cheap Bomber Z1. My question is will a Z1 with smashpot be better than if I just bought a ~$700 fork?


The fitgrip damper is excellent. Combined with the smashpot it's an excellent combo. I have a 36 rythym with the smashpot (same as the z1) and my other bike has a grip2 factory 36 and now that I've got my coil spring rate correct I'd say the smashpot fork is the winner. Go for it.


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

*180mm Smashpot Installed - 2020 Enduro*

Just finished my custom build. Decided to go with 180mm and run a 35lb spring. Seems about right for my weight. 150lb rider (naked).

Ride Report coming soon!!


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Lovely build bmwzimmer


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dougal said:


> How long ago was that? It went softer after a revision about July. Most 100kg riders are getting 50lb/in recommendations now on the free calculator. The advanced calculator takes into account variable wheelbase and head-angle.


I cannot imagine 50 or 55 lb/in spring for a 100 kg rider is sufficient. My Fox 36 that I had with factory suggested set up with air spring at 108 psi, is similar to 75 lb/in spring. Even then I run the bottom out control fully closed I am bottoming out occasionally when I am taking the hardest hits, or doing something stupid. I am probably between 110-115kg depending on with backpack and more/less content and clothes.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> I cannot imagine 50 or 55 lb/in spring for a 100 kg rider is sufficient. My Fox 36 that I had with factory suggested set up with air spring at 108 psi, is similar to 75 lb/in spring. Even then I run the bottom out control fully closed I am bottoming out occasionally when I am taking the hardest hits, or doing something stupid. I am probably between 110-115kg depending on with backpack and more/less content and clothes.


Have a stab and see what you get: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/calculators-19/bike-spring-rate-calculators

Air springs and coil springs are extremely difficult to correlate due to the weak mid-stroke on air. Sounds like you need more compression damping though.

55lb/in on a 100kg rider scales to 38.5 lb/in on a 70kg rider. A spring rate many are happily running.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

The reason I want this spring rate and not any softer is that it will be to much sag and I have low enough bb height like it is now. Also want to be able to run less LSC since I feel that it makes the suspension much more harsh. You will also get a less compressed spring and therefore a more plush feel with a 75 lb/in then a 70 lb/in since I felt that going softer only made it ride lower and hitting a more compressed area.



Dougal said:


> Have a stab and see what you get: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/calculators-19/bike-spring-rate-calculators
> 
> Air springs and coil springs are extremely difficult to correlate due to the weak mid-stroke on air. Sounds like you need more compression damping though.
> 
> 55lb/in on a 100kg rider scales to 38.5 lb/in on a 70kg rider. A spring rate many are happily running.


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

Okay. So I'm a few more weeks into the Smashpot. Still love it, but a couple questions...

I get a pretty audible top-out noise when quickly transitioning from compressed to a lifted front wheel. For example when hopping over an obstacle or transitioning through an abrupt creek bed or something. It only occurs when I'm actively pulling/shifting weight to get the front wheel off the ground.

Is this the top-out people complain about/should be addressed with pre-load, or is this normal? I mean, it doesn't bother me much—but if I can reduce/eliminate it with pre-load, may as well...


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

halfjewjace said:


> Okay. So I'm a few more weeks into the Smashpot. Still love it, but a couple questions...
> 
> I get a pretty audible top-out noise when quickly transitioning from compressed to a lifted front wheel. For example when hopping over an obstacle or transitioning through an abrupt creek bed or something. It only occurs when I'm actively pulling/shifting weight to get the front wheel off the ground.
> 
> Is this the top-out people complain about/should be addressed with pre-load, or is this normal? I mean, it doesn't bother me much-but if I can reduce/eliminate it with pre-load, may as well...


Unless your kit is from an early batch and didn't get updated, it shouldn't be affected as they revised the topout assembly and sent update kits for any stock that was already out there.

I would check the preload cap is at the minimum (8mm exposed thread) first

Also what spring rate and damper/rebound setting?


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

halfjewjace said:


> Okay. So I'm a few more weeks into the Smashpot. Still love it, but a couple questions...
> 
> I get a pretty audible top-out noise when quickly transitioning from compressed to a lifted front wheel. For example when hopping over an obstacle or transitioning through an abrupt creek bed or something. It only occurs when I'm actively pulling/shifting weight to get the front wheel off the ground.
> 
> Is this the top-out people complain about/should be addressed with pre-load, or is this normal? I mean, it doesn't bother me much-but if I can reduce/eliminate it with pre-load, may as well...


Make sure it's preloaded enough and the black plastic spring clip is well seated. I think it needs 8-10mm of thread sticking out off the top of my head. I did a spring change yesterday and I had mine at 9mm and nice and quiet.

One thing I will say, I went from 55lb to 50lb, so a ~10% change in spring rate. Felt like a much higher change than that though! Finally got the feeling I am after. I thought the 63.2 HA was the reason for the very firm mid/end stroke but was just a simple case of spring rate too high. Quick lap on my test track confirmed I'm in suspension heaven  Now to make the rear feel this good....


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Unless your kit is from an early batch and didn't get updated, it shouldn't be affected as they revised the topout assembly and sent update kits for any stock that was already out there.
> 
> I would check the preload cap is at the minimum (8mm exposed thread) first
> 
> Also what spring rate and damper/rebound setting?


Thanks for the response. So it sounds like this IS the type of top-out noise people complain about. Again, it's not bothering me per se, but if I can reduce/eliminate it all the better.

I was careful when setting it up to put it at exactly 9mm (middle of the 8-10mm recommendation in the instructions). I think it would have been fine at 8mm. Perhaps that would help.

I'm on a 50lb spring at 100kg (so definitely on the soft end of the spectrum). I have the bottom-out control set about in the middle. I think I'm at 2 or 3 clicks of rebound (from full slow). Fox 36 FIT damper.


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

brash said:


> Make sure it's preloaded enough and the black plastic spring clip is well seated. I think it needs 8-10mm of thread sticking out off the top of my head. I did a spring change yesterday and I had mine at 9mm and nice and quiet.
> 
> One thing I will say, I went from 55lb to 50lb, so a ~10% change in spring rate. Felt like a much higher change than that though! Finally got the feeling I am after. I thought the 63.2 HA was the reason for the very firm mid/end stroke but was just a simple case of spring rate too high. Quick lap on my test track confirmed I'm in suspension heaven  Now to make the rear feel this good....


Hmmmm. Your comment about making sure it's "preloaded enough" has me confused. I thought the top-out noise occurred when there was too much preload, not too little. Is that not the case?

I am at 9mm, so would noise be more likely reduced at 8mm or 10mm?


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

jist is this: just enough preload so the spring doesn't move/rattle w/ retainer but no more than nec. measure for reference but don't set by numbers alone (that measurement is mostly keeping you in the lane and being sure your set-up is safe w/ min #). in this case, you are doing yourself a disservice by "being sure it's tight" - go for just enough and then retest. It's pretty easy to adjust so maybe go on the light side of contact - test. Then adjust if nec.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

halfjewjace said:


> Hmmmm. Your comment about making sure it's "preloaded enough" has me confused. I thought the top-out noise occurred when there was too much preload, not too little. Is that not the case?
> 
> I am at 9mm, so would noise be more likely reduced at 8mm or 10mm?


9mm is perfect, Did you do 2x heat shrink on the spring for a Fox 36?

Also as stupid as it sounds, you didn't put the spring in upside down? I did in a rush changing spring rates and it made an a racket.


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

brash said:


> 9mm is perfect, Did you do 2x heat shrink on the spring for a Fox 36?
> 
> Also as stupid as it sounds, you didn't put the spring in upside down? I did in a rush changing spring rates and it made an a racket.


Yeah. Both layers of shrink. But it's not rattling in the stanchion, just top-out noise so it seems that pre-load is the only variable at play.

My understanding is that there *may* be a better direction for the spring depending on the spring. I couldn't tell a difference with mine, so I suppose that could be the case, but again, I think that would just affect rattling and not top-out.

I'll try taking the top cap off and backing the pre-load off .5mm to see what that does since I can do that without having to disassemble anything.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

halfjewjace said:


> Yeah. Both layers of shrink. But it's not rattling in the stanchion, just top-out noise so it seems that pre-load is the only variable at play.
> 
> My understanding is that there *may* be a better direction for the spring depending on the spring. I couldn't tell a difference with mine, so I suppose that could be the case, but again, I think that would just affect rattling and not top-out.
> 
> I'll try taking the top cap off and backing the pre-load off .5mm to see what that does since I can do that without having to disassemble anything.


Yeah all my springs fit the spacer nicely either end, I literally put my spring in upside down, as in the heatshrink was down the bottom haha. You only make that mistake once. I doubt I can go back to air now 

But have a play with the pre-load, as you mentioned its easy to adjust quick enough. Hopefully it's that simple a fix.


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## lagerboy (Sep 26, 2017)

Looking for feedback from people who have installed the Smashpot on a Fox 36 Grip2 fork of a decently new model. 

I got a new bike with a 160 Grip2 fork, finding it great on high-speed chunder but on slow-speed rocks and roots it doesn't feel quite as precise, supple and grippy as my previous fork, which had the ACS3 coil. Have read lots of good reviews of the Smashpot and am considering getting it installed. 

Does the Smashpot offer a big step up in small-bump compliance and grip compared with the Grip2?


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

lagerboy said:


> Looking for feedback from people who have installed the Smashpot on a Fox 36 Grip2 fork of a decently new model.
> 
> I got a new bike with a 160 Grip2 fork, finding it great on high-speed chunder but on slow-speed rocks and roots it doesn't feel quite as precise, supple and grippy as my previous fork, which had the ACS3 coil. Have read lots of good reviews of the Smashpot and am considering getting it installed.
> 
> Does the Smashpot offer a big step up in small-bump compliance and grip compared with the Grip2?


do you think smashpot replaces grip2?


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## lagerboy (Sep 26, 2017)

nikon255 said:


> do you think smashpot replaces grip2?


Sorry i should have expressed myself more precisely. I know the Smashpot doesn't replace the damper but rather the air spring. What i wonder is, do people find it a big performance improvement on a Grip2 fork? Especially 2019/20 models.


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

halfjewjace said:


> Yeah. Both layers of shrink. But it's not rattling in the stanchion, just top-out noise so it seems that pre-load is the only variable at play.
> 
> My understanding is that there *may* be a better direction for the spring depending on the spring. I couldn't tell a difference with mine, so I suppose that could be the case, but again, I think that would just affect rattling and not top-out.
> 
> I'll try taking the top cap off and backing the pre-load off .5mm to see what that does since I can do that without having to disassemble anything.


Backed the preload off from 9mm to 8.25mm and I'd say that reduced top-out noise by 75% or so, so I'm very happy with that and will leave it there!

I love this thing.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I run a Smashpot on a Grip damper, works well, not sure I'd say it's better than the air spring, but I like it better.

The Grip and Grip 2 dampers work really well, air or coil.

I've got a fair number of hours on my Smashpot, no issues, super consistent function. No complaints other than it weighs a bit extra.



lagerboy said:


> Sorry i should have expressed myself more precisely. I know the Smashpot doesn't replace the damper but rather the air spring. What i wonder is, do people find it a big performance improvement on a Grip2 fork? Especially 2019/20 models.


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## Nevada 29er (Nov 12, 2007)

Advice on which spring for a 140mm pike on a Honzo? 212-214 lbs with gear, trying to decide between the 55 and 60 lb springs. Seems like folks are gravitating towards the lower end of the spectrum.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Nevada 29er said:


> Advice on which spring for a 140mm pike on a Honzo? 212-214 lbs with gear, trying to decide between the 55 and 60 lb springs. Seems like folks are gravitating towards the lower end of the spectrum.


Spring rate calculators here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/calculators-28/bike-spring-rate-calculators


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Nevada 29er said:


> Advice on which spring for a 140mm pike on a Honzo? 212-214 lbs with gear, trying to decide between the 55 and 60 lb springs. Seems like folks are gravitating towards the lower end of the spectrum.


Depending on your preference I would be looking at a 60lb to start for you. 55 is definitely in the "plush" category for that application. I find the current spring chart to be a pretty good guide these days (the initial chart was firm for sure) and pretty consistent with my own experience/feedback/calculations.

Even the 65 would go well for for a firm/poppy feel, but if you were thinking the 2 softer rates already then I would go with the 60


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## Nevada 29er (Nov 12, 2007)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Depending on your preference I would be looking at a 60lb to start for you. 55 is definitely in the "plush" category for that application. I find the current spring chart to be a pretty good guide these days (the initial chart was firm for sure) and pretty consistent with my own experience/feedback/calculations.
> 
> Even the 65 would go well for for a firm/poppy feel, but if you were thinking the 2 softer rates already then I would go with the 60


Thanks, I noticed there is a note on the spring chart that says 65 lbs and up may require a damper retune.

I have an older 140mm non-boost Pike with an Avy cartridge, and 2016 Boost Pike with the Luftkappe, which is currently on the Honzo. On one hand I hate to spend money upgrading an older fork, but on the other hand could the Avy/ Smashpot combo be the ultimate pike and would it require retuning of the Avy with the coil?


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

head angle plays a big part in spring rate from my experience.

on the bike with 65.5 HA the fork feels amazing at 170mm 55lb, the other bike is a 63.2 HA and it's harsh, Same travel and spring. 

The magic bullet was dropping a rate for the slacker bike. Now we're talking 

At a guess, a 140mm fork will be on a relatively "steep" HA, so take Johnny's advice on Board IMO, Maybe err on the firmer side or middle of the chart.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Nevada 29er said:


> Thanks, I noticed there is a note on the spring chart that says 65 lbs and up may require a damper retune.
> 
> I have an older 140mm non-boost Pike with an Avy cartridge, and 2016 Boost Pike with the Luftkappe, which is currently on the Honzo. On one hand I hate to spend money upgrading an older fork, but on the other hand could the Avy/ Smashpot combo be the ultimate pike and would it require retuning of the Avy with the coil?


You're nowhere near 65 lb/in. I'd start you on 50lb/in and go 55 if you wanted firmer.

Open bath has upsides and downsides. A new avalanche damper is tuned for your application already. The Charger dampers all need modified and retuned anyway. There are zero riders they are ideal for.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Nevada 29er said:


> Thanks, I noticed there is a note on the spring chart that says 65 lbs and up may require a damper retune.
> 
> I have an older 140mm non-boost Pike with an Avy cartridge, and 2016 Boost Pike with the Luftkappe, which is currently on the Honzo. On one hand I hate to spend money upgrading an older fork, but on the other hand could the Avy/ Smashpot combo be the ultimate pike and would it require retuning of the Avy with the coil?


I think with the Avy cart already tuned for your weight you should be OK for rebound on either fork.

yeah its an older fork but still a good chassis with a nice damper now and its easy enough to swap in to the newer fork later if you want!


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Dougal said:


> ...The Charger dampers all need modified and retuned anyway. There are zero riders they are ideal for.


I thought the RTC3 was pretty good for a stock damper.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Chris2fur said:


> I thought the RTC3 was pretty good for a stock damper.


It's better than Motion Control was. Send it to me and you'll get a new appreciation for what it should do.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Nevada 29er said:


> Advice on which spring for a 140mm pike on a Honzo? 212-214 lbs with gear, trying to decide between the 55 and 60 lb springs. Seems like folks are gravitating towards the lower end of the spectrum.


I'm 200lbs with gear and was riding a Chameleon with a Fox 36 Fit4 with vorsprung fractive tuning and smashpot at 140 travel and the 55lb spring was perfect so if I were you I'd start there and be open to going to a 60lb spring. I think Dougal's fork spring recommendations are a little soft (for me anyway)


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

JohnnyC7 said:


> I think with the Avy cart already tuned for your weight you should be OK for rebound on either fork.
> 
> yeah its an older fork but still a good chassis with a nice damper now and _
> 
> ...


_
=======================================================
how so?_


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

nhodge said:


> how so?


The smashpot cartridge is the same regardless of fork, you just change the top cap and footnut to suit the brand its going in to


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

JohnnyC7 said:


> The smashpot cartridge is the same regardless of fork, you just change the top cap and footnut to suit the brand its going in to


my misunderstanding, i thought you were talking about the AV damper cart swap


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## Nevada 29er (Nov 12, 2007)

robmac48 said:


> I'm 200lbs with gear and was riding a Chameleon with a Fox 36 Fit4 with vorsprung fractive tuning and smashpot at 140 travel and the 55lb spring was perfect so if I were you I'd start there and be open to going to a 60lb spring. I think Dougal's fork spring recommendations are a little soft (for me anyway)


That's helpful. With a 140 fork and -1 Works headset, I should be right around 66d HT. Not slack by today's standards, but not steep either.

On a HT fork dive has a bigger effect on geometry, so a 60lb might be good to keep the bike higher in travel.

I felt like the tune on my Avy cart was a little soft. Great for soaking up chatter on flatter trails, but not confidence inspiring on the steeps. I ride a pretty wide variety of terrain from high desert single track, to N* bike park and south shore gnar.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Nevada 29er said:


> That's helpful. With a 140 fork and -1 Works headset, I should be right around 66d HT. Not slack by today's standards, but not steep either.
> 
> On a HT fork dive has a bigger effect on geometry, so a 60lb might be good to keep the bike higher in travel.
> 
> I felt like the tune on my Avy cart was a little soft. Great for soaking up chatter on flatter trails, but not confidence inspiring on the steeps. I ride a pretty wide variety of terrain from high desert single track, to N* bike park and south shore gnar.


Bigger geometry change on a hardtail? Huh?

Fork dive is controlled by LSC. If you have a fork that you cannot provide LSC without harshness then everything is a compromise. Over-springing it is a huge compromise but it works on smoother trails with big hits.


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## Nevada 29er (Nov 12, 2007)

Dougal said:


> Bigger geometry change on a hardtail? Huh?
> 
> On steeper terrain on a full sus, you get some compression in the rear to help keep the bike balanced.
> 
> Fork dive is controlled by LSC. If you have a fork that you cannot provide LSC without harshness then everything is a compromise. Over-springing it is a huge compromise but it works on smoother trails with big hits.


Right, don't want to be over-sprung, but a stiffer spring rides higher all else being equal.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Nevada 29er said:


> On steeper terrain on a full sus, you get some compression in the rear to help keep the bike balanced.
> 
> Right, don't want to be over-sprung, but a stiffer spring rides higher all else being equal.


On steeper terrain a FS bike fully rear is fully extended.

When you over-spring for trail riding you also need an excessive amount of rebound damping to stop the fork bucking. That always ends up combined with less LSC damping than you would run with the correct spring.

The result is a harsh but dead fork that packs over repeated hits. Not ideal.

Firmer springs ideally need combined with firmer compression to help support more aggressive and faster riders taking bigger impacts. Typical example being jump bikes.


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## lagerboy (Sep 26, 2017)

Has anyone tried using an even lighter spring than what the new charts recommend?


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## B Rabbit (May 30, 2014)

I've been running the smashpot most of this year. Average riding skills, not a huge sender or anything. My current setup is;

170mm 29er (SB150)
45lb spring
NO HSC, minimal LSC, and no bottom out resistance. 
75kgs

Dont think I've ever bottomed out, but have liked how the fork felt, maybe a little harsh on the small-mid stuff, but super supportive the fork rides nice and high in its travel. Average trail ride, maybe use 130mm travel, shuttling more like 150mm. 

I'm going to give the 40 spring another go (ran it on a couple of rides when I first got the kit) and start messing around more with the bottom out and the compression dials. 
40lb spring would put me on the medium chart for my weight, although when I bought the kit the medium chart had me at 45lb spring, but I've read they revised the spring weights a little  

Curious to see how it goes, i'll report my findings


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## tr1cky_k1d (Nov 19, 2007)

Anyone have a 45 lbs spring to sell?
I have a 50 lbs I can exchange with also.
Cheers


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## k-addicted (Aug 1, 2011)

Does anyone have any experience with going from smashpot back to air spring? I’m getting ready to sell my bike.


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## fizzywater (Oct 1, 2005)

k-addicted said:


> Does anyone have any experience with going from smashpot back to air spring? I'm getting ready to sell my bike.


I have no experience doing that with the smashpot, but many moons ago I converted RS Sektor air fork to coil, rode it as coil fork for about a year and then converted back to its default air setup. It worked fine without any issues.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

k-addicted said:


> Does anyone have any experience with going from smashpot back to air spring? I'm getting ready to sell my bike.


Yeah I've gone back and forth a couple of times and got lucky with no scratching or sealing issues. Only way to tell is to convert it back and try it out for a few weeks.


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## digev (Mar 7, 2019)

Same here! it was not a Smapshot but I used a Boxxer RC for 2 seasons and converted it to a WC (so Coil to Air) and it was absolutely fine!

A friend of mine reverted back to air to keep his ACS3 coil kit before selling the fork. Same story ... worked fine.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Honesty. You need to tell the buyer if you swap back or ride it as an air fork long and hard enough to make sure it holds air while being used.



k-addicted said:


> Does anyone have any experience with going from smashpot back to air spring? I'm getting ready to sell my bike.


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## k-addicted (Aug 1, 2011)

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I’m going to convert and give a hit a good hard ride to test it out. I’m cautiously optimistic. My Smashpot pot has been pin drop silent.


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## Brianjonesphoto (Jan 23, 2005)

Anyone need a 60lb spring? I’m pretty sure I’m never going to need it. Ended up with a 50lb and it seems just right. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Chasing 45lb for any aussies out there.

I have a 55lb and 50lb if these are of use to you.

3rd time lucky  The bad bit of coil shocks, this get's pricey at $100rrp per spring here.


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## Rumblefish2010 (Mar 29, 2012)

I have a 75 and 70 spring if someone needs it.


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

I’ve got 65 and 70 if anyone needs one. Wouldn’t mind trying out a 55lb if anyone stateside has one they aren’t using


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## basic79 (Dec 30, 2019)

Hi Guys,

I am realy intersted in coil fork but I have few doubt about it:
- does it worth for 29er? 29er is better small-bump eater then 27.5...
- should I change air to coil in my brand new fox 36 factory grip2 fork?
- I can’t go back to air if I dont like it
- i like to jump so I am afraid of bottoming out usually
- finally why I dont see to use coil at EWS?


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Yes
Yes
Yes
You won't
They are sponsored by companies that make air suspension, also some have been running it in secret. Plus remember not all pros have access to the best suspension advice, most of the time their parts and knowledge are no different (or less) than what a punter has access too


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## basic79 (Dec 30, 2019)

Thanx for your reply.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Wut Johnny said.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

basic79 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am realy intersted in coil fork but I have few doubt about it:
> - does it worth for 29er? 29er is better small-bump eater then 27.5...
> ...


You can go back to air if the inside of the stanchion doesn't get scratched or worn by the spring. For almost everyone that'll be fine, but it's not guaranteed.

Pros have riding as their job because they can ride fast on anything. Their gear is often lacking for many reasons (including sponsors restrictions).


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## tr1cky_k1d (Nov 19, 2007)

I have one issue with the smashpot, springs are too expensive.
A spring will set me back almost 100$ here in Europe.
I have a 50 and it is too stiff, and I have lost weight. So I am torn between a 40 or 45 spring. Ideally I'd get both but at almost 100 bucks I am riding the too stiff one as I can't make up my mind. The pricing for the springs is a bit of a joke.


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

tr1cky_k1d said:


> I have one issue with the smashpot, springs are too expensive.
> A spring will set me back almost 100$ here in Europe.
> I have a 50 and it is too stiff, and I have lost weight. So I am torn between a 40 or 45 spring. Ideally I'd get both but at almost 100 bucks I am riding the too stiff one as I can't make up my mind. The pricing for the springs is a bit of a joke.


I totally understand. It gets expensive dialing it in. And if your weight is going to yoyo a bit, you will have to keep a couple on hand. However, the typical way around that has been for companies to do a half-butted "soft, medium, hard" range of springs. You can bet it was not cheap to take the leap to manufacture that entire Smashpot range of springs and no doubt there were large minimum quantities. The question you have to ask yourself is if the custom ride quality of your fork is worth the money. For me, the answer is yes.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

tr1cky_k1d said:


> I have one issue with the smashpot, springs are too expensive.
> A spring will set me back almost 100$ here in Europe.
> I have a 50 and it is too stiff, and I have lost weight. So I am torn between a 40 or 45 spring. Ideally I'd get both but at almost 100 bucks I am riding the too stiff one as I can't make up my mind. The pricing for the springs is a bit of a joke.


Have a go with this calculator: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/bike-spring-rate-calculator-simple-shockcraft.html

Springs are expensive. Especially compared to air. But once you've got it nailed you're generally good.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

The big bug for me is the heatshrink sliding down the spring. I get maybe 2-3 rides before I have to slide it back up and re-shrink or put new heatshrink on. I can tell it's done it because it's sounds like a bag of bolts in there, and you get a notch in the midstroke where the HS is binding the spring. 

Other than that simply superb.


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

brash said:


> The big bug for me is the heatshrink sliding down the spring. I get maybe 2-3 rides before I have to slide it back up and re-shrink or put new heatshrink on. I can tell it's done it because it's sounds like a bag of bolts in there, and you get a notch in the midstroke where the HS is binding the spring.
> 
> Other than that simply superb.


I thought there were ridges in the shaft where the heat shrink goes. If the heat shrink is sucked down into those ridges, that should prevent it from sliding. I've never had it move.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Chris2fur said:


> I thought there were ridges in the shaft where the heat shrink goes. If the heat shrink is sucked down into those ridges, that should prevent it from sliding. I've never had it move.


He is talking about the heat shrink on the spring


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

robmac48 said:


> He is talking about the heat shrink on the spring


You are right--he clearly stated that. Not sure why my brain went there.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Chris2fur said:


> I totally understand. It gets expensive dialing it in. And if your weight is going to yoyo a bit, you will have to keep a couple on hand. However, the typical way around that has been for companies to do a half-butted "soft, medium, hard" range of springs. You can bet it was not cheap to take the leap to manufacture that entire Smashpot range of springs and no doubt there were large minimum quantities. The question you have to ask yourself is if the custom ride quality of your fork is worth the money. For me, the answer is yes.


I agree, its an expense we would rather not have to pay but there isn't much way around it and the trade off is worth it. Spring manufacturing is more expensive than one would think unless you are getting massive quantities!

With the heat shrink, I find you need to heat it for way longer than you expect so it sucks in pretty tight. I think I reheated my one after a couple of rides and it had shifted but hasn't moved since (which is not long after they first came out)

While were at it, yeah I'm biased but I'm still so impressed with how my fork runs these days. I finish trails that are notoriously hard on hands here with zero pain at all!


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

How much did you guys in the States pay for the kit?

It says on their site "420.69CAD (approx $315USD)" but when I go through the ordering process, it doesn't seem to change the price to USD of $315.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

the-one1 said:


> How much did you guys in the States pay for the kit?
> 
> It says on their site "420.69CAD (approx $315USD)" but when I go through the ordering process, it doesn't seem to change the price to USD of $315.


The internet tells me that the current exchange rate puts it at $316.41. When you make an international purchase with your credit card it'll convert it automatically. You might have a small extra fee of a few bucks.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Good to know it'll convert it when I press finish.


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## tr1cky_k1d (Nov 19, 2007)

Dougal said:


> Have a go with this calculator: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/bike-spring-rate-calculator-simple-shockcraft.html
> 
> Springs are expensive. Especially compared to air. But once you've got it nailed you're generally good.


I tried the simple calculator - It told me a 35 lbs spring, which definitely sounds too soft.
I got the kit when I weighed 180 lbs "naked", with the 50lbs spring with the HBO fully open / de-activated I managed to get to the end of travel once in a while riding Enduro / downhill oriented while on trail rides I used probably around 70-75% of the travel. Never really noticed the bottom outs though only O-ring telling me I reached the end.
Now I weigh 25 lbs less, I am inclined to try the 40 lbs, 35 seems too light, 45 a bit close to what I already have. At the same time, now I am starting more weight training in my training plan so I am expecting to gain a few pounds linked to that....I wish there was an exchange program for used springs to partially offset the costs.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

it's raining so I'm yet again delving into the fork to retreive the spring heatshrink from the bottom....

Would zip-tieing the heatshrink to a coil be beneficial? I remember doing this on my old boxxers and they stay put. Or not reccomended. 

Or just heat the **** out of it lol.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

brash said:


> it's raining so I'm yet again delving into the fork to retreive the spring heatshrink from the bottom....
> 
> Would zip-tieing the heatshrink to a coil be beneficial? I remember doing this on my old boxxers and they stay put. Or not reccomended.
> 
> Or just heat the **** out of it lol.


Remove the heatshrink and clean the part of the spring where the heatshrink goes thoroughly with alcohol then put some new shrink on and heat the **** out of it. My heat shrink hasn't moved after doing that.


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

I just assembled my Smashpot today in my Lyrik and noticed lateral play (by hand) of the spring where it rests against the main spring spacers. There's no play at all where the spring rests against the spring perch on the opposite end. I'm hoping this doesn't translate to rattle noise when I get to try it out in a few months. I'm using the recommended 30mm stack height for my 160mm Lyrik. I also installed and kept the two 2mm spacers, but still has the same amount of rattle. There's no vertical movement of the main spring, just lateral.
I have exactly 9mm of inner tube thread exposed.
Would an additional spring perch to be positioned between the main spring spacers and main spring solve the issue or am I worrying too much about the lateral rattle?
The main spring appeared identical on both ends and the spring perch fit exactly the same on both ends.


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## spanishflyaberdeen (May 29, 2005)

I fitted Smashpot (2016 170mm Lyrik with a RCT 2) on earlier this week
Added weight to the fork was measured as 421g (40lb spring), its on a G16 Geometron, so its not a disaster,

It had its first ride today , I was very impressed, I hadn't ridden anything so compliant with the trail since my Boxxers on my Iron Horse a long time ago. 

On the last down (3hr winch & plummet ride) it did develop knocking from the spring becoming loose, upon strip down, the reason wasn't obvious so I have fitted a 2mm spacer and will try again soon (once storm Dennis leaves the northeast).

Has anyone else found this, would the spring have "settled" and lost length?


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

spanishflyaberdeen said:


> I fitted Smashpot (2016 170mm Lyrik with a RCT 2) on earlier this week
> Added weight to the fork was measured as 421g (40lb spring), its on a G16 Geometron, so its not a disaster,
> 
> It had its first ride today , I was very impressed, I hadn't ridden anything so compliant with the trail since my Boxxers on my Iron Horse a long time ago.
> ...


How did you install the preload cap at the top? until the pring ws secure or just set it to 8-10mm? Spring lengths can vary slightly so it may have been a fraction short to begin with, or just all the parts settling in to each other. Springs don't normally set that quickly, it takes several years of riding in cases I've seen


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

A few weeks back i asked if head angle had a relation to spring rate, well today I tried my new bike with a 2 deg steeper HA and the results were astounding. The fork went from something I really liked to something I absolutely LOVE now! It was nearly like the slack HA was binding the fork somewhat. Now it's like absolute BUTTER and I was adding more and more compression as the day went on and my confidence grew.

For those wondering, went from Stumpy Evo to a Commencal META AM 29, that commencal rear suspension platform is fantastic to me.


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## endorium (Jan 31, 2019)

Has anyone that has converted to the smashpot been tempted to go back to air? If so why?

Also the weight difference, how noticeable is it? I do a fair amount of climbing. Also does the weight make a difference with the handling on tight technical riding?


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## spanishflyaberdeen (May 29, 2005)

Hi.

I pre-loaded the spring once touching the seat collar by 2mm, then measured the exposed thread which was 9.1mm.
It was really quiet until the last down, on the ride I added two clicks of bottom out (I started with none)

I agreed I have never came across a coil spring to settle so quickly.

Post ride I added a 2mm spacer, and repeated the above procedure with only 8mm exposed of thread prior to top cap fitment. I haven't tried yet in earnest but did the kerb test and there is no knock.... Once I get clear of work this week I will try and revert.

In my opinion sorted, I get a sound like a lips smacking occasionally at the start of a down but it either disappears or I never notice again when I pick up speed and focus on the run, it may just be the top of the coil being drained of oil from the climb. 
It feels very good on the roots/rough far more grip. Str#v# tells me I am faster too.

Thank you for your help

Cheers.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

endorium said:


> Has anyone that has converted to the smashpot been tempted to go back to air? If so why?
> 
> Also the weight difference, how noticeable is it? I do a fair amount of climbing. Also does the weight make a difference with the handling on tight technical riding?


Not tempted in the slightest. I don't notice the weight difference, but also the actual penalty in speed/time/power use is negligible.

Put it this way, changing to a better chain lube and cleaning process give more improvement than you would lose from adding even a kilo of weight


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## k-addicted (Aug 1, 2011)

Anyone here have a lyric top cap and foot nut for a Smashpot that they want to sell? I thought it might be worth a try. I pulled one out of my Fox 36 and I’m putting it a lyric so the I have a Fox 36!top cap and foot nut for sale or trade.


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## dlxah (Nov 5, 2014)

Does the Smashpot cartridge itself ever require service? How does it displace oil? I’m guessing there’s just an open bath in there? Does it just share oil with the lowers?


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

dlxah said:


> Does the Smashpot cartridge itself ever require service? How does it displace oil? I'm guessing there's just an open bath in there? Does it just share oil with the lowers?


Pretty much install it and forget it. Yes, entire spring side becomes open bath.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Yeah it’s open bath, and no real wear parts like glide rings or o rings and the shaft. It runs on a bushing and has an acetal BO piston. At full service time just flush it out and check the condition of the heat shrink


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

I was set on getting a ACS3 and now I am leaning towards the smashpot.
This will go on a 140mm Pike (Tallboy 4, around 65* HA)
I am 135lbs, riding weight around 138-140)
Ride in SoCal, Laguna area. Intermediate to advance rider. I ride all the trails here, marked, unmarked.
Should I start with a 40 or 45 spring?
What is the weight difference between the acs3 and smashpot?


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

By my calculations you fall on the 45lb side of the range so that would be my recommendation to start with


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> I was set on getting a ACS3 and now I am leaning towards the smashpot.
> This will go on a 140mm Pike (Tallboy 4, around 65* HA)
> I am 135lbs, riding weight around 138-140)
> Ride in SoCal, Laguna area. Intermediate to advance rider. I ride all the trails here, marked, unmarked.
> ...


https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/calculators-52/bike-spring-rate-calculators

The simple and free calculator is your first stop for fork springs. If you have weird bike geometry then go for the complicated calculator to get it more accurate.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

JohnnyC7 said:


> By my calculations you fall on the 45lb side of the range so that would be my recommendation to start with


I might need to order both of them to try.


Dougal said:


> https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/calculators-52/bike-spring-rate-calculators
> 
> The simple and free calculator is your first stop for fork springs. If you have weird bike geometry then go for the complicated calculator to get it more accurate.


Thanks. I tried it. What I don't understand is the free calculator doesn't take into consideration the fork travel...
It gave me 33lb/in for 62kg/137lbs weight.
It sounds a bit soft for a 140mm fork.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Yeah you need firmer rates for shorter travel forks or else you will bottom out way too often

In my experience the Vorsprung chart is very reliable


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> Thanks. I tried it. What I don't understand is the free calculator doesn't take into consideration the fork travel...
> It gave me 33lb/in for 62kg/137lbs weight.
> It sounds a bit soft for a 140mm fork.


Fork travel doesn't affect spring-rate for ride quality. Most people over-spring shorter travel forks instead of using compression damping.

35 lb/in is about right for you. Why do you think it's too soft?


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Fork travel doesn't affect spring-rate for ride quality. Most people over-spring shorter travel forks instead of using compression damping.
> 
> 35 lb/in is about right for you. Why do you think it's too soft?


I don't know. I only go by the Vorsprung chart, which puts me on 40lb/in and John here recommended 45lb/in...


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Yeah you need firmer rates for shorter travel forks or else you will bottom out way too often
> 
> In my experience the Vorsprung chart is very reliable


Didn't you say you never use full travel?


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Fork travel doesn't affect spring-rate for ride quality. Most people over-spring shorter travel forks instead of using compression damping.
> 
> 35 lb/in is about right for you. Why do you think it's too soft?


Are you saying spring rate should not be determined (besides the other factors like riders weight, geometry) by the fork travel?
Why are there then different spring rates for different travel for the same riders weight in vorsprung chart?
Going from 130 to 180mm, the recommended spring rate changes by 10lb/in.
I am just trying to understand this...


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Jazzanova, I weigh a lot more than you do and I'm running the 35lb spring in a 140mm Pike. Just because a spring is linear does not mean it uses all its travel on every hit. Everybody seems to be obsessed with always keeping several mm of travel in "reserve." That way of thinking will rob you of a plush ride. The Smashpot also has a very effective hydraulic bottom out control. That's all you really need for your serious "oh, crap" moments in my opinion.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> Are you saying spring rate should not be determined (besides the other factors like riders weight, geometry) by the fork travel?
> Why are there then different spring rates for different travel for the same riders weight in vorsprung chart?
> Going from 130 to 180mm, the recommended spring rate changes by 10lb/in.
> I am just trying to understand this...


140mm isn't short enough travel IMO to compromise spring-rate. If you want to run 100-120mm then sure compromises will be made.

The Vorsprung guys go bigger and harder than most. I take a different path and recommend the same spring rates for 140-180mm.

Remember. You've got HBO as well with the Smashpot.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Everyone is different, I have riders around that 65-75kg range using anywhere from 35 to 50lb/in at 160mm depending on terrain and preference

I have had 1 customer around your weight run the 35lb spring in a 160 fork but he was pretty far towards the extreme "comfort" end of the spectrum. Considering the travel, skill and terrain you describe I would definitely be going firmer than 35 to start with


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

Yep, this whole discussion is why I ended up with a collection of springs before I got it dialed. Back then, the Vorsprung recommendations were even stiffer. Even if takes a few tries, the end result is worth it.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Chris2fur said:


> Yep, this whole discussion is why I ended up with a collection of springs before I got it dialed. Back then, the Vorsprung recommendations were even stiffer. Even if takes a few tries, the end result is worth it.


True that! I'm riding a spring that SHOULD be way light for my weight. I'm about 290lbs kitted up and on a 55 lb spring at 160mm of travel. I don't huck a lot or ride stupid big drops. It works for me, and it's ridiculously plush!

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Chris2fur said:


> Jazzanova, I weigh a lot more than you do and I'm running the 35lb spring in a 140mm Pike. Just because a spring is linear does not mean it uses all its travel on every hit. Everybody seems to be obsessed with always keeping several mm of travel in "reserve." That way of thinking will rob you of a plush ride. The Smashpot also has a very effective hydraulic bottom out control. That's all you really need for your serious "oh, crap" moments in my opinion.





Dougal said:


> 140mm isn't short enough travel IMO to compromise spring-rate. If you want to run 100-120mm then sure compromises will be made.
> 
> The Vorsprung guys go bigger and harder than most. I take a different path and recommend the same spring rates for 140-180mm.
> 
> Remember. You've got HBO as well with the Smashpot.





JohnnyC7 said:


> Everyone is different, I have riders around that 65-75kg range using anywhere from 35 to 50lb/in at 160mm depending on terrain and preference
> 
> I have had 1 customer around your weight run the 35lb spring in a 160 fork but he was pretty far towards the extreme "comfort" end of the spectrum. Considering the travel, skill and terrain you describe I would definitely be going firmer than 35 to start with





Chris2fur said:


> Yep, this whole discussion is why I ended up with a collection of springs before I got it dialed. Back then, the Vorsprung recommendations were even stiffer. Even if takes a few tries, the end result is worth it.


Thank you everyone.
I guess I will need to experiment with different spring rates a little.
I hate armpump almost as much as I hate diving forks. Will try softer spring first and play with compression. As it is at the moment, 2.1 pike feels very overdamped to me anyway. 
I couldn't find the info, but is there a significant weight difference between the ACS3 and the smashpot?


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## GT87 (Mar 18, 2014)

jazzanova said:


> Thank you everyone.
> I guess I will need to experiment with different spring rates a little.
> I hate armpump almost as much as I hate diving forks. Will try softer spring first and play with compression. As it is at the moment, 2.1 pike feels very overdamped to me anyway.
> I couldn't find the info, but is there a significant weight difference between the ACS3 and the smashpot?


I don't know the exact numbers, but I think there is indeed a significant weight difference. The smashpot is quite a bit heavier. That seems to be the only disadvantage it has vs the push acs3 though. Seems to be superior to the acs3 in every other respect


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

GT87 said:


> I don't know the exact numbers, but I think there is indeed a significant weight difference. The smashpot is quite a bit heavier. That seems to be the only disadvantage it has vs the push acs3 though. Seems to be superior to the acs3 in every other respect


I don't know the exact weight either, but I came from an ACS3. And I'll agree with the rest of your statement.

For me, someone who rides a lot in the midstroke, the Smashpot is light years better. I was constantly against the ABS plunger with the Push kit. One wouldn't think that 20 psi would be noticeable until it really started to ramp up, but it was. The HBO of the Smashpot is definitely a better solution for bottom out control. It feels much more linear in the travel than the Push system did.

I am not disappointed with the move to the Vorsprung unit, in the slightest!

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Have any of you rearranged the HBO shims to decrease bottoming resistance? 

This step from the installation instructions: "To decrease bottom out resistance - reposition one of the MAIN SHIMS to be located in between the SPACER SHIM and the CLAMP SHIM."

Did you notice a big difference?


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

GT87 said:


> I don't know the exact numbers, but I think there is indeed a significant weight difference. The smashpot is quite a bit heavier. That seems to be the only disadvantage it has vs the push acs3 though. Seems to be superior to the acs3 in every other respect


I hope Vorsprung will offer Ti springs in the future. I bet there are many who would jump on it.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

R_Pierce said:


> I don't know the exact weight either, but I came from an ACS3. And I'll agree with the rest of your statement.
> 
> For me, someone who rides a lot in the midstroke, the Smashpot is light years better. I was constantly against the ABS plunger with the Push kit. One wouldn't think that 20 psi would be noticeable until it really started to ramp up, but it was. The HBO of the Smashpot is definitely a better solution for bottom out control. It feels much more linear in the travel than the Push system did.
> 
> ...


I do not really have any problem with the ACS3. I cannot perceive any transition in the stroke of the fork. I run 15 psi, buy you can actually go lower if you want. You can even run it with no pressure, that is completely linear with no ramp up ... so I am not sure what your problem was but I doubt it was the ACS3.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

GT87 said:


> I don't know the exact numbers, but I think there is indeed a significant weight difference. The smashpot is quite a bit heavier. That seems to be the only disadvantage it has vs the push acs3 though. Seems to be superior to the acs3 in every other respect


I have found an earlier post. Here are the weights of ACS3, Smashpot and air.


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## GT87 (Mar 18, 2014)

jazzanova said:


> I have found an earlier post. Here are the weights of ACS3, Smashpot and air.


Thanks for posting that. Factor in the bath oil for the smashpot too. I think it's 100-110ml vs 10ml for the acs3... so I'm guessing that's ~85 grams difference. And if you really wanted to be thorough, you'd add the weight of the air top cap and a token or two to the weight of that air spring.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

GT87 said:


> Thanks for posting that. Factor in the bath oil for the smashpot too. I think it's 100-110ml vs 10ml for the acs3... so I'm guessing that's ~85 grams difference. And if you really wanted to be thorough, you'd add the weight of the air top cap and a token or two to the weight of that air spring.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


I forgot about the oil. That's getting pretty hefty.


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## dlxah (Nov 5, 2014)

According to Push, the ACS-3 kit adds about 65-150g to a 36 with a Talas spring or 210-285g over the Float spring.
https://www.bikemag.com/gear/push-acs-3-convert-your-36-or-pike/

According to Vorsprung, the Smashpot adds about 250-450g depending on spring rate and the fork's original spring system.
https://vorsprungsuspension.com/col...orsprung-smashpot-fork-coil-conversion-system

So it sounds like the Smashpot is probably around 175g heavier depending on the spring rate, amount of travel, etc. It might actually be a little less than that, since the Smashpot springs go up to 80 lbs/in, whereas the ACS-3 springs stop at 60 lbs/in.


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## GT87 (Mar 18, 2014)

dlxah said:


> According to Push, the ACS-3 kit adds about 65-150g to a 36 with a Talas spring or 210-285g over the Float spring.
> https://www.bikemag.com/gear/push-acs-3-convert-your-36-or-pike/
> 
> According to Vorsprung, the Smashpot adds about 250-450g depending on spring rate and the fork's original spring system.
> ...


I've seen those numbers before, but I don't think either of the companies are representing the weight gain accurately. You can look at those scales posted above and see that. I don't know what spring is on that smashpot, but the blue acs3 is 45lb so pretty middle of the road. Does it matter? Probably not to most people reading this.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

jazzanova said:


> I hope Vorsprung will offer Ti springs in the future. I bet there are many who would jump on it.


Titanium is actually a poor material for springs, it doesn't form very well so you get inconsistent rates and linearity. It was pretty common to see bent and broken springs BITD. Modern steels are pretty light these days and much more reliable (and cheaper!), Ti was more common when we use to need 2 springs in a fork

Weight is honestly a Non-issue anyway, if you calculate the change in power needed to propel a bike that weighs 1kg more it is tiny! There is actually more gains in changing your chain lube than losing weight, to put it in perspective.


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## dlxah (Nov 5, 2014)

GT87 said:


> I've seen those numbers before, but I don't think either of the companies are representing the weight gain accurately. You can look at those scales posted above and see that. I don't know what spring is on that smashpot, but the blue acs3 is 45lb so pretty middle of the road. Does it matter? Probably not to most people reading this.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


Perhaps, but that air spring is missing the top cap, footnut, retaining ring, and volume spacer or two. The actual weight of the full air spring assembly is closer to 80g. Here's a better comparison, although this one is missing the additional oil:


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## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Titanium is actually a poor material for springs, it doesn't form very well so you get inconsistent rates and linearity. It was pretty common to see bent and broken springs BITD. Modern steels are pretty light these days and much more reliable (and cheaper!), Ti was more common when we use to need 2 springs in a fork
> 
> Weight is honestly a Non-issue anyway, if you calculate the change in power needed to propel a bike that weighs 1kg more it is tiny! There is actually more gains in changing your chain lube than losing weight, to put it in perspective.


What chain lube should I be using??? LOL


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

rynomx785 said:


> What chain lube should I be using??? LOL


+1!!! Haha.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

The best lubes are waxed based

MS speedwax is the best on the market currently, it’s a hot wax you submerge your chain in. This is what I use, but smoove and squirt are the 2 drip lubes closest in performance( eg efficiency and reduction in wear) Silca just released a new lube that looks very promising too


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## GT87 (Mar 18, 2014)

JohnnyC7 said:


> The best lubes are waxed based
> 
> MS speedwax is the best on the market currently, it's a hot wax you submerge your chain in. This is what I use, but smoove and squirt are the 2 drop lubes closest in performance( eg efficiency and reduction in wear) Silca just released a new lube that looks very promising too


I've used squirt and liked it. Boeshield t9 is really good too.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Titanium is actually a poor material for springs, it doesn't form very well so you get inconsistent rates and linearity. It was pretty common to see bent and broken springs BITD. Modern steels are pretty light these days and much more reliable (and cheaper!), Ti was more common when we use to need 2 springs in a fork
> 
> Weight is honestly a Non-issue anyway, if you calculate the change in power needed to propel a bike that weighs 1kg more it is tiny! There is actually more gains in changing your chain lube than losing weight, to put it in perspective.


I see. I didn't know that about Titanium springs.
Now the question is. Lighter ACS3 (which I have a good experience with, even though it's used with an Avy open bath) or the hydraulic smashpot.


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## GT87 (Mar 18, 2014)

jazzanova said:


> I see. I didn't know that about Titanium springs.
> Now the question is. Lighter ACS3 (which I have a good experience with, even though it's used with an Avy open bath) or the hydraulic smashpot.


Did your avalanche damper have the ABS?

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

GT87 said:


> Did your avalanche damper have the ABS?
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


No. And I run only about 8psi in the ACS3.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

jazzanova said:


> I see. I didn't know that about Titanium springs.
> Now the question is. Lighter ACS3 (which I have a good experience with, even though it's used with an Avy open bath) or the hydraulic smashpot.


The Push system is great but I'm a Vorsprung partner so obviously a big fan of it. The hydraulic cartridge works great and I really like that you can alter the travel of the cartridge or swap between fork brands and not need to buy many new parts, if any


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Open bath has upsides and downsides. A new avalanche damper is tuned for your application already.


it's certainly advertised to be, but in my case, that philosophy went out the nearest window


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## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

JohnnyC7 said:


> The best lubes are waxed based
> 
> MS speedwax is the best on the market currently, it's a hot wax you submerge your chain in. This is what I use, but smoove and squirt are the 2 drip lubes closest in performance( eg efficiency and reduction in wear) Silca just released a new lube that looks very promising too


My wife is going to be pissed when she realizes what I have been using the crock pot for. This better be worth it Johnny!


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

rynomx785 said:


> My wife is going to be pissed when she realizes what I have been using the crock pot for. This better be worth it Johnny!


Friction Facts independently tested all the "top" lubes. The process recommended by Johnny C7 is good and was similar to the service that Friction Facts offered. However, almost as good--and the highest performing off the shelf in the test--was good old Rock 'n' Roll Gold Chain Lube.


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## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

Chris2fur said:


> Friction Facts independently tested all the "top" lubes. The process recommended by Johnny C7 is good and was similar to the service that Friction Facts offered. However, almost as good--and the highest performing off the shelf in the test--was good old Rock 'n' Roll Gold Chain Lube.


I will check that out. Thanks!


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## GT87 (Mar 18, 2014)

nhodge said:


> it's certainly advertised to be, but in my case, that philosophy went out the nearest window


Can you elaborate on that?

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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

I have been reading tons of threads on coil conversations lately and have another question.
Pike 2.1 at 140mm. 140lbs rider. SoCal/Laguna trails
Is there a high possibility I would need to do a damper upgrade (Avy, HC97, custom tune...) after going with a coil spring?
Which damper modification would be the safest bet after Smashpot? Avvy, HC97?

I have a ACS3 in my 160 pike, but I got it after Avvy open bath and it indeed increase small bump compliance. (Avvy itself was an improvement but felt a bit harsh) 
I am aware the Smashpot with the HBO is a better performing system than the ACS3 with the air controlled bottom out, but it also is a bit heavier system.
So, the most expensive route would be Avvy open bath damper with HBO + ACS3 (air bottom out function disabled) or Smashpot + Possibly a damper tune or HC97.
I just don't want to end up with a very heavy fork if I combine Smashpot with a Avvy.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Charger dampers are pretty weak on low speed support but the friction of an air spring gives the feeling of extra damping, so the main reason to change the damper is to gain some support back. At your weight you might not have an issue but if it was I recommend the HC97 as a good match


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## CharacterZero (May 19, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> I have been reading tons of threads on coil conversations lately and have another question.
> Pike 2.1 at 140mm. 140lbs rider. SoCal/Laguna trails
> Is there a high possibility I would need to do a damper upgrade (Avy, HC97, custom tune...) after going with a coil spring?
> Which damper modification would be the safest bet after Smashpot? Avvy, HC97?
> ...


What did Craig say about your 160mm feeling harsh? 
What does Craig recommend for your PIKE?
I'd think he would recommend his damper and stock air spring, or maybe a hybrid coil setup...but you might be too light for it. I've got 80# on you and running his hybrid air/coil with damper and it is outstanding.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

CharacterZero said:


> What did Craig say about your 160mm feeling harsh?
> What does Craig recommend for your PIKE?
> I'd think he would recommend his damper and stock air spring, or maybe a hybrid coil setup...but you might be too light for it. I've got 80# on you and running his hybrid air/coil with damper and it is outstanding.


It was the small bump compliance I didn't get with the Avvy. Otherwise it was nice, much better mid stroke support. From what I have read, Avvy open bath can lack some small bump compliance, but works great on bigger hits. At least that was my experience, a very supportive feel.
Craig recommended some settings, but it got much better after using a he ACS3. Maybe the air spring and it's stickcion was the problem?

Craig couldn't confirm or recomend ACS3 with his system, Darren didn't either. 
But generally Darren was more opposed to it. He was concerned about the decreased air volume in the damper side, due to the Avvy cart taking more space could compromise ACS3 Function and maybe make the whole system more progressive?

Another issue I had with the air spring was due to running low air pressure, the fork was sitting low. Instead of 160 I was getting less than 150. I had to also equalize the air very often and it got old constantly removing the air cap, pulling on the fork to hear the hiss. The fork was then good for 1 ride... ACS3 solved it.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Charger dampers are pretty weak on low speed support but the friction of an air spring gives the feeling of extra damping, so the main reason to change the damper is to gain some support back. At your weight you might not have an issue but if it was I recommend the HC97 as a good match


Thanks!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Titanium is actually a poor material for springs, it doesn't form very well so you get inconsistent rates and linearity. It was pretty common to see bent and broken springs BITD. Modern steels are pretty light these days and much more reliable (and cheaper!), Ti was more common when we use to need 2 springs in a fork
> 
> Weight is honestly a Non-issue anyway, if you calculate the change in power needed to propel a bike that weighs 1kg more it is tiny! There is actually more gains in changing your chain lube than losing weight, to put it in perspective.


There is nothing wrong with titanium as a spring material. The issue is for bike springs they wanted lower weight which meant fewer coils. You end up with a steep helix angle with large gap between coils and a spring that pushes itself out of shape as it compresses.

The same issues apply to the lightweight steel springs being produced now.

Steel is the same weight it has always been (7.8 g/cc).


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jazzanova said:


> I have been reading tons of threads on coil conversations lately and have another question.
> Pike 2.1 at 140mm. 140lbs rider. SoCal/Laguna trails
> Is there a high possibility I would need to do a damper upgrade (Avy, HC97, custom tune...) after going with a coil spring?
> Which damper modification would be the safest bet after Smashpot? Avvy, HC97?
> ...


It all depends where you want to go with weight. Some people have it as a huge issue. Others don't care.

The Vorsprung Smashpot system is better. HBO vs air booster is a huge difference. But the Vorsprung is obviously heavier with a longer coil and more oil inside.

For the damper we have no information showing the HC97 can go low enough for riders your weight. The only dyno charts made public show much higher damping forces.
Darren says those charts aren't the full range, but he won't provide any others so we just can't tell.

Avalanche open bath is going to be heavier than a charger. But can give you HBO option if you didn't take that with the Smashpot.

The lightest and also cheapest option is to sort out your air spring and get the charger modified and tuned.

The heaviest option is Avalanche open bath damper and Smashpot coil.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Dougal said:


> It all depends where you want to go with weight. Some people have it as a huge issue. Others don't care.
> 
> The Vorsprung Smashpot system is better. HBO vs air booster is a huge difference. But the Vorsprung is obviously heavier with a longer coil and more oil inside.
> 
> ...


and only $800.00 for the dual upgrade. a real deal


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## Christopher Robin (Dec 1, 2004)

I found the ACS3 works well IF you happen to fit in on the lower end of a heavier spring. That way you run the air bottom out system with very minimal pressure.


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Dougal said:


> The Vorsprung Smashpot system is better. HBO vs air booster is a huge difference.


But that cant be! I was just told above that the ABC wouldn't cause a ramp up enough that I would notice (more or less) and something else was wrong 

I just rode the Smashpot again today and there is a definite difference! If worried about weight, then go with the ACS3. if not, Smashpot all day long.

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## GT87 (Mar 18, 2014)

nhodge said:


> and only $800.00 for the dual upgrade. a real deal





nhodge said:


> it's certainly advertised to be, but in my case, that philosophy went out the nearest window


Could you actually try to be helpful and explain what your beef is with the Avy damper?

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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

GT87 said:


> explain


https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/avalanche-deal-gone-bad-1117493.html


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

GT87 said:


> Could you actually try to be helpful and explain what your beef is with the Avy damper?
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


if after reading what tbmaddux posted up, i'll answer any specific questions you have.


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

Christopher Robin said:


> I found the ACS3 works well IF you happen to fit in on the lower end of a heavier spring. That way you run the air bottom out system with very minimal pressure.


Hm that must be why I don't notice any flaws in my ACS-3. Mine is set up for "trail aggressive" so PUSH bumped me up to a black instead of a green. That said, I have a friend who rides the Smashpot on his bike and he's stoked as well.


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## jazzanova (Jun 1, 2008)

Dougal said:


> It all depends where you want to go with weight. Some people have it as a huge issue. Others don't care.
> 
> The Vorsprung Smashpot system is better. HBO vs air booster is a huge difference. But the Vorsprung is obviously heavier with a longer coil and more oil inside.
> 
> ...


Thank you again.
What do you mean by "sort out the air spring"?


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## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

tbmaddux said:


> Hm that must be why I don't notice any flaws in my ACS-3. Mine is set up for "trail aggressive" so PUSH bumped me up to a black instead of a green. That said, I have a friend who rides the Smashpot on his bike and he's stoked as well.


How much do you weigh?


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

rynomx785 said:


> How much do you weigh?


190lb. Fork is 170mm Fox 36 Grip2 from last year. According to the chart from PUSH I would be on the low end of a green spring. I was given fewer clicks out on my (custom-tuned) damper than the chart, as well.


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## seamarsh (Mar 5, 2012)

First ride tonight on smashpot in a yari, went from 150-170. Everything works amazing but halfway down first dh run I could hear fork making more and more noise. I stopped and compressing the fork I could hear the coils rubbing against something inside.. finished the run and was going to ride back home and inspect but when I got the the bottom fork was not making the noise. So I went back up for another run was quiet almost all the way up then noticed the rubbing sound again. Did second dh run and fork was loud.. got to bottom and got off bike for a minute. When I pushed down on forks they were quiet again!! Lol


I’ll call them in morning but was curious if anyone had a similar experience? Does this sound normal?


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

seamarsh said:


> First ride tonight on smashpot in a yari, went from 150-170. Everything works amazing but halfway down first dh run I could hear fork making more and more noise. I stopped and compressing the fork I could hear the coils rubbing against something inside.. finished the run and was going to ride back home and inspect but when I got the the bottom fork was not making the noise. So I went back up for another run was quiet almost all the way up then noticed the rubbing sound again. Did second dh run and fork was loud.. got to bottom and got off bike for a minute. When I pushed down on forks they were quiet again!! Lol
> 
> I'll call them in morning but was curious if anyone had a similar experience? Does this sound normal?


heatshrink on the spring migrated down.

Wipe the slick honey off best you can, heat the **** out of it.

I had the same issue several times. Needs more heating than you think.


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## seamarsh (Mar 5, 2012)

brash said:


> heatshrink on the spring migrated down.
> 
> Wipe the slick honey off best you can, heat the **** out of it.
> 
> I had the same issue several times. Needs more heating than you think.


Interesting... thanks I'll check it out in A.M. I thought I heated it pretty good, but sounds like you know what you are talking about.

Nice thing is you don't have to pull lowers to remove it at least! just more oil.

Appreciate the response.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

seamarsh said:


> Interesting... thanks I'll check it out in A.M. I thought I heated it pretty good, but sounds like you know what you are talking about.
> 
> Nice thing is you don't have to pull lowers to remove it at least! just more oil.
> 
> Appreciate the response.


depending how far it's migrated, take the top cap off, compress the fork and with a belt or something keep it compressed, fish the heatshrink out with an old spoke and wind it up the spring, then clean and heat. No oil loss that way. I had it down to a 5 minute exercise sadly


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Do all of you guys get full travel on occasion? I haven't used the last 2cm of travel on mine even during heavy landings off of drops. I'm thinking about rearranging the shims in the HBO to decrease bottom out resistance. It's dialed out all the way to minimal bottom out resistance already.


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## rynomx785 (Jul 16, 2018)

tbmaddux said:


> 190lb. Fork is 170mm Fox 36 Grip2 from last year. According to the chart from PUSH I would be on the low end of a green spring. I was given fewer clicks out on my (custom-tuned) damper than the chart, as well.


Wow, low end of the green per the chart and they bumped you up to black huh? I am on the high end of the blue at 180 and I was debating on going green but stuck with blue. I am a decently aggressive rider. I will have to get a green spring and try both setups. Maybe more spring rate and less air bump pressure is the way to go.


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

Crazy. Is there some other method/material besides the fickle heat shrink to use?


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## seamarsh (Mar 5, 2012)

brash said:


> depending how far it's migrated, take the top cap off, compress the fork and with a belt or something keep it compressed, fish the heatshrink out with an old spoke and wind it up the spring, then clean and heat. No oil loss that way. I had it down to a 5 minute exercise sadly


Wasn't heat shrink I don't think.. btw you can easily remove the spring.

Still trying to troubleshoot.. have to disassemble.. this sucks lol


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Nat said:


> Do all of you guys get full travel on occasion? I haven't used the last 2cm of travel on mine even during heavy landings off of drops. I'm thinking about rearranging the shims in the HBO to decrease bottom out resistance. It's dialed out all the way to minimal bottom out resistance already.


Reaching full travel is a funny thing, it is usually G-outs that are most likely to reach the bottom as the forces are very high but speeds (and therefore damping force) are very low. I can easy bottom my fork on large, smooth jumps without feeling it, but on trails I usually have 20mm left over


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

seamarsh said:


> First ride tonight on smashpot in a yari, went from 150-170. Everything works amazing but halfway down first dh run I could hear fork making more and more noise. I stopped and compressing the fork I could hear the coils rubbing against something inside.. finished the run and was going to ride back home and inspect but when I got the the bottom fork was not making the noise. So I went back up for another run was quiet almost all the way up then noticed the rubbing sound again. Did second dh run and fork was loud.. got to bottom and got off bike for a minute. When I pushed down on forks they were quiet again!! Lol
> 
> I'll call them in morning but was curious if anyone had a similar experience? Does this sound normal?


My Lyrik with the 50lb spring makes intermittent noise like this. What spring are you using? I've gone back up to a 55lb spring but have yet to ride it as my damper basically fell apart (nut holding the rebound piston/shim stack unscrewed!) but I'm hoping the extra meat on the spring helps with deflection.


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## dtownracer (Feb 3, 2007)

Try the green spring, you should notice more support and less brake dive. The blue made my bike feel like a stinkbug-pretty sketchy and unbalanced on the steeps.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Reaching full travel is a funny thing, it is usually G-outs that are most likely to reach the bottom as the forces are very high but speeds (and therefore damping force) are very low. I can easy bottom my fork on large, smooth jumps without feeling it, but on trails I usually have 20mm left over


Interesting. Do you run the HBO with the stock shim arrangement? I'll have to find a big G-out and double check but I haven't accessed the last 20mm ever, including when jumping.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Stock arrangement for now, haven't had the chance to experiment with a softer one yet


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Stock arrangement for now, haven't had the chance to experiment with a softer one yet


Where do you have your HBO adjustment knob set? Mine is set at least resistance.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

*Smashpot tune*

My riding weight is 170, spring wt. Is 45. Fork Fox 36 factory fit4. Smashpot set 1 click of HBO. LSC backed out all the way out. 6 out on rbnd. 20% sag. Basic trail riding using 5.5 inches. One nose heavy 5 foot drop did that. Otherwise only using about 4 inches of travel. How are other riders with similar stats doing?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

nhodge said:


> My riding weight is 170, spring wt. Is 45. Fork Fox 36 factory fit4. Smashpot set 1 click of HBO. LSC backed out all the way out. 6 out on rbnd. 20% sag. Basic trail riding using 5.5 inches. One nose heavy 5 foot drop did that. Otherwise only using about 4 inches of travel. How are other riders with similar stats doing?


I have a Lyrik instead of a Fox but you and I are the same riding weight. Even on g-outs I've never used full travel so I'm thinking I want to rearrange the HBO shims to decrease bottom out resistance.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

After reading your earlier post, got me thinking the same thing instead of 40 or 35 spring. Have you discussed with Vorsprung? I wouldn't mind 25% sag over 20.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

*Tunè*

Dp, sorry


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Double post


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

nhodge said:


> After reading your earlier post, got me thinking the same thing instead of 40 or 35 spring. Have you discussed with Vorsprung? I wouldn't mind 25% sag over 20.


LOL, talking to Vorsprung would be a great idea. It's easier to sit here ruminating and wringing my hands instead though. Ha.


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## seamarsh (Mar 5, 2012)

Nat said:


> LOL, talking to Vorsprung would be a great idea. It's easier to sit here ruminating and wringing my hands instead though. Ha.


I'm same weight 170 ready to ride, 45 spring on a 170mm yari. Don't have much time on it yet. Waiting on a replacement spring and my fork for whatever reason is super loud.. did all the troubleshooting I could with Vorsprung and waiting to see if new spring help. They have been super helpful btw.

I do think from my limited riding that hbo shim shuffle may be in order.. right now using only 2-3 clicks of hbo so could probably use a lighter tune.

There's a section in the install instructions of how to reshim.

I'd go that route over a lighter spring.. this spring feels good and it's a fine line you definitely don't want to light of a spring I would think.

For me I can't tell how good it's working because there's so much spring noise.. it's a psychological effect.. I'm too ocd to handle what sounds like trouble brewing!

How are your forks noise wise? Silent? A little noise.. I'm not sure what to expect but need less than I have currently.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Combining a few:

Spring noise: check your preload / measurement (check the thread for writeups on this) - too much = noise for certain. It doesn't take a lot. As others mentioned, could need good spring shrink wrap and grease..but if you did that - check preload.

Full travel: @ 163 neekid weight and 170mm Lyrik - I get full travel w/ my 40lb spring. I'm running it 'plush' - never a harsh bottom tho, for hard runs I'll probably add a little HBO. I'd think at similar weight & 45lb spring would be getting you close too. As I said, my 40 is the plush ride vs. what I'd expect 45 to be more trail feel. Preference point. Thing to check is that the shrink wrap isn't covering your HBO ports - some people had theirs move - if you used a proper heat gun, I'd suspect you are fine vs. hairdryer.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

seamarsh said:


> How are your forks noise wise? Silent? A little noise.. I'm not sure what to expect but need less than I have currently.


Mine runs pretty silent.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

weights and spring rates are important factors.

One variable people leave out is head angle. 

Take for instance, I have a 36 @ 170mm, with a 50lb spring. I'm approx 210lb ready to ride these days (the corona got me riding way more!)

On my stumpy evo with 63.2 deg HA it's too firm for me, compression open.

Put the same fork on my commencal Meta AM29 with 65.5 deg HA and it's maybe a little soft and I'm using a lot more compression and a few clicks of HBO. The fork is so much better this way than too firm IMO.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

brash said:


> weights and spring rates are important factors.
> 
> One variable people leave out is head angle.
> 
> ...


But you're able to reach bottom out?


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

I'm going to take out a shim tomorrow. Too easy not to, to see if that solves the HBO resistance


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Nat said:


> But you're able to reach bottom out?


The HBO works so well you don't really know, however the o-ring would suggest so.


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## HH4L (Jan 25, 2018)

Mmm I was waiting for the price and weight of the EXT new fork but no news so decided to finally go with the smashpot but they're BO!  I wanted to start the season with it because 6-7 months without riding my lyrik + new frame = probably wouldn't know my fork is a pound heavier!  Now I'll have to wait until like mid July so I hope it won't be too long to get used to the heavy front end! 

I was really nervous about all the problems some have/had so didn't take a chance and will let an autorised Vorsprung service center do the job, hoping everythings gonna be fine! 

About 195lbs, 210 with riding gear. I went with 50 as suggested! Hope it will be plush but not diving too much!


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

HH4L said:


> Mmm I was waiting for the price and weight of the EXT new fork but no news so decided to finally go with the smashpot but they're BO!  I wanted to start the season with it because 6-7 months without riding my lyrik + new frame = probably wouldn't know my fork is a pound heavier!  Now I'll have to wait until like mid July so I hope it won't be too long to get used to the heavy front end!
> 
> I was really nervous about all the problems some have/had so didn't take a chance and will let an autorised Vorsprung service center do the job, hoping everythings gonna be fine!
> 
> About 195lbs, 210 with riding gear. I went with 50 as suggested! Hope it will be plush but not diving too much!


You won't even notice the added weight....

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## HH4L (Jan 25, 2018)

R_Pierce said:


> You won't even notice the added weight....
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Some people told me you notice but it goes away after a few rides... Was afraid my well balanced bike would nose dive at every drop/jump! haha We'll see!


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Removed 1 of the 5 shims, left the HBO @ zero clicks but didn't really notice any more travel. I called Vorsprung to see about taking out 1 more shim, but they said ĺ
Was simply over sprung w/ the 45. I'm dealing w/health issues right now, so l expect to gain some weight back. Feels overall pretty good, so I'm in no hurry to change. Easy to work on & Vorsprung guys are great to work w/


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

nhodge said:


> Removed 1 of the 5 shims, left the HBO @ zero clicks but didn't really notice any more travel. I called Vorsprung to see about taking out 1 more shim, but they said ĺ
> Was simply over sprung w/ the 45. I'm dealing w/health issues right now, so l expect to gain some weight back. Feels overall pretty good, so I'm in no hurry to change. Easy to work on & Vorsprung guys are great to work w/


What travel is your fork? I couldn't see it in your previous post


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

160


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Rumblefish2010 said:


> Steve, I have checked with original seals and the aftermarket seals, and still there is 6-7mm difference in travel, between air and coil setup.
> I am sure the difference is the top out spring on the Smashpot, since I get the last 6mm, when pulling the stanchions apart.
> 
> So for me it made more sense to add 10mm travel to my 160mm original. That gives me 164mm available travel, instead of 154mm. That should have been perfect if it had been 5mm spacers, so it could be set at 159mm, but since I am having the sense of benefitting from getting extra ride height or higher dynamic sag, it is perfect.


Just wondering; are you measuring with the bike sitting on the ground, or with it raised up on a workstand?

Reason is with the Smashpot it the fork may be sagging a few mm just under its own weight. The stiction of an air fork usually minimises any such sag.


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## seamarsh (Mar 5, 2012)

brash said:


> weights and spring rates are important factors.
> 
> One variable people leave out is head angle.
> 
> ...


This is a great post, wasn't thinking about head angle at all. Just dropped from 170-160 because bike was feeling too raked out at 170 and I was having a noise issue.

I installed new spring Vorsprung sent me and wow huge difference dropping 10mm on my yt decoy. Feels like I went down a spring rate and now using 5 clicks of hbo at 160 vs 2 at 170.

I was using full travel before adding clicks of hbo.

So not sure what fixed it, new spring or dropping to 160 but happy customer now.

Head angle really make a huge difference.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

seamarsh said:


> This is a great post, wasn't thinking about head angle at all. Just dropped from 170-160 because bike was feeling too raked out at 170 and I was having a noise issue.
> 
> I installed new spring Vorsprung sent me and wow huge difference dropping 10mm on my yt decoy. Feels like I went down a spring rate and now using 5 clicks of hbo at 160 vs 2 at 170.
> 
> ...


What spring rate are you using? I have a 50lb spring that rattles, curious if you have/had the same issue? My 55 and 60lb springs are silent.


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## seamarsh (Mar 5, 2012)

springs said:


> What spring rate are you using? I have a 50lb spring that rattles, curious if you have/had the same issue? My 55 and 60lb springs are silent.


45.. first one was making a lot of noise so they replaced with another 45... but as I mentioned I changed travel when I swapped in new spring.. so not sure what actually fixed it! 😜 new spring or less travel? Or both?


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## dlxah (Nov 5, 2014)

Does anybody know if the Fox spring removal tool (398-00-681) will work on the Smashpot? The threading seems to be the same as the stock air spring on my 36. I'm guessing the tool also has space for the HBO adjuster shaft, since it's made to fit over the rebound adjuster shaft on the damper side of the 32. Hopefully somebody can verify before I order one.


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

dlxah said:


> Does anybody know if the Fox spring removal tool (398-00-681) will work on the Smashpot? The threading seems to be the same as the stock air spring on my 36. I'm guessing the tool also has space for the HBO adjuster shaft, since it's made to fit over the rebound adjuster shaft on the damper side of the 32. Hopefully somebody can verify before I order one.


Yep, it works. Thread is the same as the Fox units.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Just thought I'd share my experience installing into a Fox 36.

Initially tried running the main spring at zero preload as suggested in many of the earlier discussions here.

When picking the bike up and shaking the bars it sounded like the fork had a handful of ball bearings inside. Riding it sounded much the same.

After much experimenting and a few emails with Steve, I settled on running about 3mm of preload using both of the 2mm preload spacers and 9mm of inner shaft showing above the spring collar.

*Just a tip though:* the spacers only work when you install them under the spring. If you install them at the top they have almost no effect. I learned this the hard way and wasted a lot of time experimenting until I asked Steve for help. You can drop the spacers in from the top of the fork to avoid disassembling the whole fork.

So lesson learned.. Although Zero preload is great in theory for maximum sensitivity (I run only about 0.5mm preload on my rear coilshock with no issue), it would seem with the Smashpot due to the topout spring system that some riders may need to dial in some preload.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Why did you ignore the directions?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

nhodge said:


> Removed 1 of the 5 shims, left the HBO @ zero clicks but didn't really notice any more travel. I called Vorsprung to see about taking out 1 more shim, but they said ĺ
> Was simply over sprung w/ the 45. I'm dealing w/health issues right now, so l expect to gain some weight back. Feels overall pretty good, so I'm in no hurry to change. Easy to work on & Vorsprung guys are great to work w/


Have you had a chance to ride yet? If so, what's your impression with the spring and shim changes?

I went to a lighter 40# spring and decreased the HBO damping resistance. I only had time for a couple of runs on a trail with some drop offs up to 4' and hit full travel with an imperceptible bottom-out. It felt pretty good and I'm eager to try it out on a fast trail with chunder to see if the fork is where I want it. I'm heading to Mt. Ashland tomorrow for some shuttle runs.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Anyone know the spec for the coil heat shrink. It’s migrated again after I was certain I’d solved the issue. I’ve ran out and I presume electrical stuff would suffice rather than order and wait for it to come from Canada. Cheers.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

brash said:


> Anyone know the spec for the coil heat shrink. It's migrated again after I was certain I'd solved the issue. I've ran out and I presume electrical stuff would suffice rather than order and wait for it to come from Canada. Cheers.


The spring is 30mm diameter (about 50mm when it is flat), single wall polyolefin.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Nat said:


> Have you had a chance to ride yet? If so, what's your impression with the spring and shim changes?
> 
> I went to a lighter 40# spring and decreased the HBO damping resistance. I only had time for a couple of runs on a trail with some drop offs up to 4' and hit full travel with an imperceptible bottom-out. It felt pretty good and I'm eager to try it out on a fast trail with chunder to see if the fork is where I want it. I'm heading to Mt. Ashland tomorrow for some shuttle runs.


Haven't changed the spring yet , but plan to, not because l//m uñhappy, just i think 40 would suit my style of riding better. Looking forward to Ashland report


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

nhodge said:


> Haven't changed the spring yet , but plan to, not because l//m uñhappy, just i think 40 would suit my style of riding better. Looking forward to Ashland report


The terrain in Ashland is steeper than where I live. Our first run of the day was on a trail that starts out near the summit and descends quickly, with several rock drops and jumps along the way. Within the first two minutes of dropping into the descent I had a couple of firm bottom outs and thought to myself, "D'OH! I should've left the HBO alone!" After turning the HBO knob more towards full firm I never had a hard bottom again though. I like the 40# spring better and am getting full travel now.

















I'll be interested to hear your impressions when you get to ride again.


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## Paco Loco (Oct 25, 2007)

Hi all. I have a Smashpot installed in my 2017/2018 Pike RC. I’m getting an odd noise and wondered if anyone here could help identify it...

The noise happens when the fork is compressing, as the fork enters the midstroke. 
It’s what I’d describe as a “clack” sound. It’s fairly loud and does not sound particularly healthy. 
Doesn’t happen every time the fork compresses, but does happen often. 

Sounds kinda like the spring is binding on something and then breaks free resulting in a noise , but that’s just a guess really. 
I can’t imagine this noise could be made by the sprint touching the inside wall of the fork though. 

Any ideas?


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Paco Loco said:


> Hi all. I have a Smashpot installed in my 2017/2018 Pike RC. I'm getting an odd noise and wondered if anyone here could help identify it...
> 
> The noise happens when the fork is compressing, as the fork enters the midstroke.
> It's what I'd describe as a "clack" sound. It's fairly loud and does not sound particularly healthy.
> ...


Probably will be the spring but nobody can diagnose it correctly without a video or in reality without removing the Smashpot for a look.


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## Paco Loco (Oct 25, 2007)

Thanks for the reply. Gonna open it up soon and then may post some pics here.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Paco Loco said:


> Hi all. I have a Smashpot installed in my 2017/2018 Pike RC. I'm getting an odd noise and wondered if anyone here could help identify it...
> 
> The noise happens when the fork is compressing, as the fork enters the midstroke.
> It's what I'd describe as a "clack" sound. It's fairly loud and does not sound particularly healthy.
> ...


How much preload are you running?

When I first installed the spring I was running close to zero preload (I screwed the collar down until it just touched the spring so there was no vertical play).

The fork would make a clack sound as it reached about midstroke.

I ended up putting in both of the 2mm spacers to give a total of about 3mm preload. The fork was silent after that.

If you have the same issue you will need to wind down the preload collar further, or if you are already at 10mm shaft showing, you will need to add 1 or two spacers and wind the collar in or out until you have enough preload.

Try adding 0.5mm of preload at a time.

To add spacers you don't need to disassemble the fork. Just remove the spring, stick the spacer to the bottom using a dab of grease, then gently guide it back down into the fork without losing the spacer.


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## Colin+M (Feb 15, 2009)

Is it possible to convert a Fox 36 ACS3 conversion to the Smashpot? 



Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Colin+M said:


> Is it possible to convert a Fox 36 ACS3 conversion to the Smashpot?
> 
> Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


Yes. Remove all of the ASC3 kit and replace with a Smashpot.

I did this on a Lyrik.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## Colin+M (Feb 15, 2009)

R_Pierce said:


> Yes. Remove all of the ASC3 kit and replace with a Smashpot.
> 
> I did this on a Lyrik.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Awesome! Thanks!

I bought the fork already converted, but I like the Smashpot design more. I also need to change the travel to 150 from 160, so instead of investing more in the Push I wanted to know if I could just start over 

I'm assuming you prefer the Smashpot?

Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


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## R_Pierce (May 31, 2017)

Colin+M said:


> Awesome! Thanks!
> 
> I bought the fork already converted, but I like the Smashpot design more. I also need to change the travel to 150 from 160, so instead of investing more in the Push I wanted to know if I could just start over
> 
> ...


I do prefer the Smashpot. I liked the ACS kit but I do not like the air assist bottom out.

To me, personally, the HBO is much more linear until needed.

Keep in mind, a lot of these guys that huck big don't notice it I don't think, as they are just smashing through travel constantly.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## Colin+M (Feb 15, 2009)

R_Pierce said:


> I do prefer the Smashpot. I liked the ACS kit but I do not like the air assist bottom out.
> 
> To me, personally, the HBO is much more linear until needed.
> 
> ...


Any need to mess with the seals/foam rings? I know Push conversion replaces the stock ones.

Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


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## Paco Loco (Oct 25, 2007)

teK-- said:


> How much preload are you running?
> 
> When I first installed the spring I was running close to zero preload (I screwed the collar down until it just touched the spring so there was no vertical play).
> 
> ...


Thats really helpful - thanks very much :thumbsup:


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## Slurry (Dec 23, 2008)

Anyone got a 55lb spring to sell? Want to trade it for a 60lb spring?


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## jack_steel (May 17, 2013)

Some questions before ordering the Smashpot:
- Is the spring chart still for "out-of-the-shower-weight" or fully dressed for riding?
- I'm 83 kg naked / ~90 kg dressed and I ride a '15 Fox 36 150 mm with a Vorsprung Luftkappe and one Formula Neopos installed with 90-92,5 psi (measured with a digital shock-pump), which i think is slightly more then the suggestion of Fox. Standing on the bike I have ~20% of sag (30 mm).

Depending on the first question above the recommended spring would be 45 to 55 lbs for a softer or medium setup. I'm not a beginner but far away from being a pro, I like to ride relatively fast, I do some smaller and medium sized jumps and sometimes I take the direct line through chatter because I don't have the skills to jump over it. 

The rear end has 135 mm of moderate-progressive (~20%) coil-controlled suspension and depending on wet or dry terrain, I switch between a 475 and 500 lbs spring, mounted on a shock with 57 mm of stroke. The softer spring gives me a very plush setup with more sag, the stiffer spring has more pop and less sag. Usually I change the pressure in the fork between 90 and 92.5 psi to match the plusher or stiffer spring on the rear.

The bike has the head angle on the slacker site (~64-64,5°), if that's important.

Will the 45, the 50, or the 55 lbs spring be the better spring to start with?


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## digev (Mar 7, 2019)

https://thesuspensionlab.nz/coil-spring-calculator-beta


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

jack_steel said:


> Some questions before ordering the Smashpot:
> - Is the spring chart still for "out-of-the-shower-weight" or fully dressed for riding?
> - I'm 83 kg naked / ~90 kg dressed and I ride a '15 Fox 36 150 mm with a Vorsprung Luftkappe and one Formula Neopos installed with 90-92,5 psi (measured with a digital shock-pump), which i think is slightly more then the suggestion of Fox. Standing on the bike I have ~20% of sag (30 mm).
> 
> ...


Naked. They allow for about 3-4 kg of riding gear.

Since you seem to carry a bit more, I'd count it as 85kg. For a 150mm fork I'd suggest starting on a 55lb spring.

Or 50lb could also work with a few more clicks of HBC.


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## jack_steel (May 17, 2013)

digev said:


> https://thesuspensionlab.nz/coil-spring-calculator-beta


Thanks... to get to the 500 lbs spring which I currently use on dry days on the rear I have to choose supportive/moderate/mixed. All the other options are resulting in a 475 lbs or even softer spring on the rear. The matching fork would be 60 lbs but I think this could be to much... Is it possible to calculate the correct spring from the current air pressure used in the fork?


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## nikon255 (Dec 27, 2015)

jack_steel said:


> Is it possible to calculate the correct spring from the current air pressure used in the fork?


you can hang on the handlebar with fork +/- perpendicular to the ground, then check your weight, measure travel used and divide. Unfortunately its not so easy cuz lowers pressure build up is unknown. You can do this while burping both dust seals but its risky. Safer method is to have relief valves in lowers


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

jack_steel said:


> Thanks... to get to the 500 lbs spring which I currently use on dry days on the rear I have to choose supportive/moderate/mixed. All the other options are resulting in a 475 lbs or even softer spring on the rear. The matching fork would be 60 lbs but I think this could be to much... Is it possible to calculate the correct spring from the current air pressure used in the fork?


Thanks for the feedback, I recommend for the fork sticking with whatever results you get from picking your closest answers to each parameter or at least the default settings.

Even if the shock spring result is soft it doesn't change the fork result. The shock spring has more room for variation due to different leverage rates and rider weight distribution, so don't tweak the calculator to try and match that one. eg if you are riding a 500lb spring on a progressive frame it will "feel" like a 450 in a theoretical linear frame for the top half of the stroke so you want the fork spring that matches that result.

I would expect you to be on a 50 or 55lb spring, probably start on the 55.


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## ek33 (Apr 4, 2011)

jack_steel said:


> Some questions before ordering the Smashpot:
> - Is the spring chart still for "out-of-the-shower-weight" or fully dressed for riding?
> - I'm 83 kg naked / ~90 kg dressed and I ride a '15 Fox 36 150 mm with a Vorsprung Luftkappe and one Formula Neopos installed with 90-92,5 psi (measured with a digital shock-pump), which i think is slightly more then the suggestion of Fox. Standing on the bike I have ~20% of sag (30 mm).
> 
> ...


We have nearly the exact same setup, weigh 79-82kg and currently running the 55lb spring (I also have a 50) in my Fox 36 150mm. I, too, have a coil rear and use either a 475 or 500 (currently 500). I'm currently recovering from a shoulder injury so riding tamer trails at slower speeds than usual and can feel that the suspension is a tad stiff. May switch out springs to 50/475.


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## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

Reading the online installation instructions, a "Torque wrench to spanner adaptor" is required. It seems this isn't something commonly stocked at a local hardware store, but even looking online, I wasn't able to find anything looking like the tool in the manual. Closest I could find was this on Amazon:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GZND2Q/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B000GZND2Q&pd_rd_w=T7yVy&pf_rd_p=48d372c1-f7e1-4b8b-9d02-4bd86f5158c5&pd_rd_wg=LIINo&pf_rd_r=G33VNJRCY9JYW0C61PH6&pd_rd_r=96317a61-ce3b-44e4-9f4b-249aa26ed6b7&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExVlZISlRJNzlBM1E5JmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMDE3NDgxMjMwUTI5WTg5ODU3MCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMzYyMjc0OFBQMlhBTFRQUklJJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
What did you use and where did you purchase? Thanks


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

jasonp22 said:


> Reading the online installation instructions, a "Torque wrench to spanner adaptor" is required. It seems this isn't something commonly stocked at a local hardware store, but even looking online, I wasn't able to find anything looking like the tool in the manual. Closest I could find was this on Amazon:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GZND2Q/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B000GZND2Q&pd_rd_w=T7yVy&pf_rd_p=48d372c1-f7e1-4b8b-9d02-4bd86f5158c5&pd_rd_wg=LIINo&pf_rd_r=G33VNJRCY9JYW0C61PH6&pd_rd_r=96317a61-ce3b-44e4-9f4b-249aa26ed6b7&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExVlZISlRJNzlBM1E5JmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMDE3NDgxMjMwUTI5WTg5ODU3MCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMzYyMjc0OFBQMlhBTFRQUklJJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
> What did you use and where did you purchase? Thanks


I just tightened it by hand. Up to the point of resistance/bottom out and then an extra 1/16 of a turn. I suspect most people didn't use a torque wrench adapter either.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

I let a buddy of mine borrow my 36 with Smashpot last weekend, he is considerably lighter than me but also rides at a pace amongst the fastest in the world, did the EWS last year etc. 

Anyway, he is sponsored by fox, get's his stuff serviced bi-monthly and he reckons the smashpotted rythym was miles better than any fork he's ridden to date (hasn't got his 38 yet) which was nice to hear.

What sucked was sure enough, the heatshrink moved down the spring AGAIN! this is really shitting me now. This was ONE weekend of riding, lucky to be 50km after a fresh service.

Also I noticed how black the bath oil was after him riding it, I get it no where near as used. I suppose it comes with the fact he's riding literally twice as fast as me.

I currently have 40/20 heatshrink on there, I'm going to go up to the electrical wholesaler and get the next size down I guess. :madman:


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jack_steel said:


> Some questions before ordering the Smashpot:
> - Is the spring chart still for "out-of-the-shower-weight" or fully dressed for riding?
> - I'm 83 kg naked / ~90 kg dressed and I ride a '15 Fox 36 150 mm with a Vorsprung Luftkappe and one Formula Neopos installed with 90-92,5 psi (measured with a digital shock-pump), which i think is slightly more then the suggestion of Fox. Standing on the bike I have ~20% of sag (30 mm).
> 
> ...


Here's another free opinion: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/calculators-91/bike-spring-rate-calculators

The free calculator works great for forks. For rear shocks you need the extra data in the paid calculator.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

jack_steel said:


> Some questions before ordering the Smashpot:
> - Is the spring chart still for "out-of-the-shower-weight" or fully dressed for riding?
> - I'm 83 kg naked / ~90 kg dressed and I ride a '15 Fox 36 150 mm with a Vorsprung Luftkappe and one Formula Neopos installed with 90-92,5 psi (measured with a digital shock-pump), which i think is slightly more then the suggestion of Fox. Standing on the bike I have ~20% of sag (30 mm).
> 
> ...


I fall right in between the two recommended spring weights on Vorsprung's chart and I like the lighter weight spring better (I get about 25% sag with it). If we ever get to go to Whistler again I'll swap for the heavier spring.


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## maginamatogin (Aug 2, 2020)

Hi all,
Im looking to put a smashpot in my specialised status and after some feedback re head angles vs spring rate.
Im pretty light, 65kg and ride fairly agro grade 5 NZ trails usually in Nelson and Wellington.
New bike is much heavier than my previous at 16kg. Its 160mm front and rear but runs a mullet set up, 63.7 HA, and very short chainstays.
ive read that a slacker head angle runs good with a softer spring.
Looking at the chart soft is 35 and balanced is 40 for my weight and fork.
The 2 calculators have given me a recommendation of a 35 and a 40.
Would the different size rear wheel, slack HA and short stays move the recommended spring rate?
Brendon.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

maginamatogin said:


> Hi all,
> Im looking to put a smashpot in my specialised status and after some feedback re head angles vs spring rate.
> Im pretty light, 65kg and ride fairly agro grade 5 NZ trails usually in Nelson and Wellington.
> New bike is much heavier than my previous at 16kg. Its 160mm front and rear but runs a mullet set up, 63.7 HA, and very short chainstays.
> ...


This calculator takes head angle, wheelbase, bike weight (E bike vs Acoustic) etc into account: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/bike-spring-rate-calculator-advanced-shockcraft.html

We use it for all our Smashpot installs and I think we've got 100% satisfaction to date. The only post purchase spring swap was when the customer initially wanted firmer.


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## maginamatogin (Aug 2, 2020)

Cheers Dougal


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## ChvleSS956c (Aug 29, 2011)

So when are we going to see a kit for the Fox 38 or RS ZEB?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## HH4L (Jan 25, 2018)

I couldn't wait to go at my suspension shop this week...so I went on Vorsprung site yesterday just to see that... it is still out of stock!!!!! WTF I wanted that kit in April for the start of the season but was BO until end of june. I waited a bit and it was now end of July. Now end of August! It think I'll try to sell my wheels and just buy a 29er fork to do a mullet! It is the best coil kit but I'm a bit tired of waiting for it...


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## HH4L (Jan 25, 2018)

ChvleSS956c said:


> So when are we going to see a kit for the Fox 38 or RS ZEB?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


They say soon for both, on their new website (compatibility).


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

They came back into stock about 6-7 weeks ago. I got on the backorder list via my local distributor and received one.


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## HH4L (Jan 25, 2018)

teK-- said:


> They came back into stock about 6-7 weeks ago. I got on the backorder list via my local distributor and received one.


Whaattt !!!! So I should call the suspension shop then!!! I hope they do have one!!! :thumbsup:


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Hopefully with release of the Secus it will leave more Smashpots available, for the purists


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## Steve VS (Oct 11, 2012)

HH4L said:


> I couldn't wait to go at my suspension shop this week...so I went on Vorsprung site yesterday just to see that... it is still out of stock!!!!! WTF I wanted that kit in April for the start of the season but was BO until end of june. I waited a bit and it was now end of July. Now end of August! It think I'll try to sell my wheels and just buy a 29er fork to do a mullet! It is the best coil kit but I'm a bit tired of waiting for it...


I'm really sorry about that! They've come back into stock and sold out again a couple of times this year (both times what came back into stock barely covered our existing backorders) - we've just had more demand than we've had manufacturing capacity for quite a while now. Obviously that will have to change soon, because when we're frustrating customers like this that's doing nobody any favours. Apologies once again.


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## HH4L (Jan 25, 2018)

Steve VS said:


> I'm really sorry about that! They've come back into stock and sold out again a couple of times this year (both times what came back into stock barely covered our existing backorders) - we've just had more demand than we've had manufacturing capacity for quite a while now. Obviously that will have to change soon, because when we're frustrating customers like this that's doing nobody any favours. Apologies once again.


Well I was waiting to call S4 as they say it was BO this spring and thought I should look on your site instead of bothering them...my fault! I hope they received the kits they wanted...I'll call them tomorrow!

A friend of mine is going on a bike trip in BC in 3 weeks and was thinking about buying/installing a smashpot in his Pike.....I think he should decide right now and tell you because you likely won't have any in stock, right?


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

I ordered mine July 8. (Vorsprung direct)
Was expecting it to be filled in the end of July order.
I was missed on this latest round, so not all outstanding back-orders got filled.


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## HH4L (Jan 25, 2018)

Yeah well.... my suspension shop still don't have the Lyrik kit so I'll have to wait in September if I want one. I could have a Push kit but really prefer to have the smashpot if going with a coil conversion. The shop made an order in April, something like that. Anyway, that's what they said to me back then... Maybe they had a kit and sold it but don't think so... 

I could go mullet with a Z1 or Selva but not many spring rate so I don't want to be between two of those with a brand new fork.... I'll wait if I don't change for a 29er bike.


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## cb750stu (Oct 1, 2019)

Hi folks just wondering if there is a video for building up and installing the smashpot ??
Any particular brand/weight of oil people prefer ??

Spring weight , go for the one below recommend or above ??

Regards

Sent from my CPH2009 using Tapatalk


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

cb750stu said:


> Hi folks just wondering if there is a video for building up and installing the smashpot ??
> Any particular brand/weight of oil people prefer ??
> 
> Spring weight , go for the one below recommend or above ??
> ...


I didn't run across any video of the assembly.

I use Fox Gold 20wt suspension fluid.

My body weight falls right in between two recommended spring weights so I bought both. I prefer the lighter weight but I do bottom out on occasion in heavy g-outs. I'd suggest for trail riding opt for the lighter spring. For sending it big opt for the heavier spring.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

The pictoriol with written explanation Is all you need


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## cb750stu (Oct 1, 2019)

Nat said:


> I didn't run across any video of the assembly.
> 
> I use Fox Gold 20wt suspension fluid.
> 
> My body weight falls right in between two recommended spring weights so I bought both. I prefer the lighter weight but I do bottom out on occasion in heavy g-outs. I'd suggest for trail riding opt for the lighter spring. For sending it big opt for the heavier spring.


Cheers dude 

Sent from my CPH2009 using Tapatalk


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

*Going back to air...sort of *

I've been running the Smashpot on a Fox 36 on a Bronson v3 for about 8 months. It's amazing. I love it and tell everybody about it.

That said, I have grown tired of my Orange fork and have eyes on another bike anyway, so selling the bike with the fork is preferable. I'm finding it somewhat more difficult to sell the bike with a coil fork-lots of questions and some apprehension based on needing to change the spring for the new rider (which I've offered to do).

So. I know that converting back is considered "impossible" to set proper expectations-but is the absolutely the case?

Is making the determination as simple as putting the airspring back in and seeing if it will hold air? Are there any tell-tale signs I can look for using a visual inspection?

Assuming it wont hold air, would the part to replace the lower-leg assembly or the CSU? Or are both potentially impacted?

Thanks all!


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## seamarsh (Mar 5, 2012)

halfjewjace said:


> I've been running the Smashpot on a Fox 36 on a Bronson v3 for about 8 months. It's amazing. I love it and tell everybody about it.
> 
> That said, I have grown tired of my Orange fork and have eyes on another bike anyway, so selling the bike with the fork is preferable. I'm finding it somewhat more difficult to sell the bike with a coil fork-lots of questions and some apprehension based on needing to change the spring for the new rider (which I've offered to do).
> 
> ...


not impossible, just a disclaimer they tell you.. should be able to convert back no problem.. but you will have to test it obviously.. chance it may not work but people have gone back.


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

halfjewjace said:


> So. I know that converting back is considered "impossible" to set proper expectations-but is the absolutely the case?
> 
> Is making the determination as simple as putting the airspring back in and seeing if it will hold air? Are there any tell-tale signs I can look for using a visual inspection?
> 
> ...


I went back to air recently in a quest to shave some weight off the bike and like you, prep it for an easier sell. I've have about a two weeks and maybe four rides on it since and there are no air leaks or pressure loss.


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## Dr.Flow (Jul 6, 2011)

Same here. I took out the Smashpot to move it into my new fork after about 18 months, put in the air spring and all is good. Rode the fork for about 5 times to make sure it is really sealing and put it on the classifieds 2 days ago. The stanchion looks like new on the inside.


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## halfjewjace (Oct 3, 2018)

Dr.Flow said:


> Same here. I took out the Smashpot to move it into my new fork after about 18 months, put in the air spring and all is good. Rode the fork for about 5 times to make sure it is really sealing and put it on the classifieds 2 days ago. The stanchion looks like new on the inside.


Thanks for the replies erybody. Hopefully I have as easy a time as the rest of you!


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## endorium (Jan 31, 2019)

Got my smashpot and going to install it.Couple
of questions.

I presume fork lowers have to come off to remove the airspring.
Once all removed and you put lowers back on, on the damper side you just add the same oil as per stock?

Coil side you add no oil to the lowers and just add oil to the top section where the coil sits into (110ml for lyrik)?

Any tricks or anything else I should be aware of? Seems straight forward.


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

Dr.Flow said:


> Same here. I took out the Smashpot to move it into my new fork after about 18 months, put in the air spring and all is good. Rode the fork for about 5 times to make sure it is really sealing and put it on the classifieds 2 days ago. The stanchion looks like new on the inside.


Yep, installed over a year ago, did a service yesterday and stanchion is like new.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

endorium said:


> Got my smashpot and going to install it.Couple
> of questions.
> 
> I presume fork lowers have to come off to remove the airspring.
> ...


There are no separate chambers on the coil side, so you add oil from the top


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

endorium said:


> Got my smashpot and going to install it.Couple
> of questions.
> 
> I presume fork lowers have to come off to remove the airspring.
> ...


I found the instructions from Vorsprung to be very well done. Did you not receive them? They are also downloadable from their site.


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## evertsson (Jul 15, 2020)

I must admit that I did not read through this entire thread.

I run a RS Pike with Charger 2 damper. What damper upgrade is best suited as a companion to a Smashpot?


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## johnsogr (May 31, 2009)

evertsson said:


> I must admit that I did not read through this entire thread.
> 
> I run a RS Pike with Charger 2 damper. What damper upgrade is best suited as a companion to a Smashpot?


Great question, Craig at Avalanche will tailor a damper to your Smashpot, but he also recommends getting a coil that's 1-2 "softer" than you would on Vorsprung's chart

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

The terrain/trails I ride vary greatly from very steep to very chunky to lots of jumps at the bike park. Thus, I would only run a coil shock or fork with HSC adjustment. Charger 2/2.1 is already a very good damper. You don’t mention whether you have a Pike Select/+, RC, RCT3 or RC2/Ultimate.

If you need the HSC adjustments, you’ll need a RC2 2.1 damper for about $330 or so. If you have a RCT3, you can get the Vorsprung adjuster knob that turns your 3 way knob into a 3 way HSC knob


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## evertsson (Jul 15, 2020)

johnsogr said:


> Great question, Craig at Avalanche will tailor a damper to your Smashpot, but he also recommends getting a coil that's 1-2 "softer" than you would on Vorsprung's chart
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sure Craig is doing a great job, but I like to do it myself.
I'm looking for a kit to upgrade the damper.

Also, I'm based in Sweden and I like to use my bike, the turnaround time for sending parts of it to the US seems steep.


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## evertsson (Jul 15, 2020)

bmwzimmer said:


> The terrain/trails I ride vary greatly from very steep to very chunky to lots of jumps at the bike park. Thus, I would only run a coil shock or fork with HSC adjustment. Charger 2/2.1 is already a very good damper. You don't mention whether you have a Pike Select/+, RC, RCT3 or RC2/Ultimate.
> 
> If you need the HSC adjustments, you'll need a RC2 2.1 damper for about $330 or so. If you have a RCT3, you can get the Vorsprung adjuster knob that turns your 3 way knob into a 3 way HSC knob


Oh, I missed that part. I only have the RC version with LSC knob.


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## jack_steel (May 17, 2013)

evertsson said:


> Oh, I missed that part. I only have the RC version with LSC knob.


I did an upgrade of my RCT3 cartdridge in Germany, but it fit's to the RC too. Unfortunately it's not a do-it-yourself-upgrade, you have to send it to Mario.

MST Charger 1 Tuning


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## evertsson (Jul 15, 2020)

jack_steel said:


> I did an upgrade of my RCT3 cartdridge in Germany, but it fit's to the RC too. Unfortunately it's not a do-it-yourself-upgrade, you have to send it to Mario.
> 
> MST Charger 1 Tuning


That seems to be a good alternative, turnaround time to Germany is probably not that long.


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## jack_steel (May 17, 2013)

evertsson said:


> That seems to be a good alternative, turnaround time to Germany is probably not that long.


I'll ship my Fox RC2 cartdridge to him next week. Last time turnaround time from Austria to Germany and back his work included was 2 weeks.


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## evertsson (Jul 15, 2020)

How does Fast SC4 or Push HC97 compare to a professional tune?

Whats the best match for a Smashpot?


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

evertsson said:


> Oh, I missed that part. I only have the RC version with LSC knob.


Then I would just get the RC2.1 Damper upgrade which has LSC/HSC. If you can do a lower leg service you can swap out the Damper yourself. Normally it takes me about 25-30 minutes to do a Lower leg service. When I swapped Dampers from a Motion Control to a RC2.1, it just added 7-10 minutes to the job and no special tools needed. It was literally a drop in

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

bmwzimmer said:


> If you have a RCT3, you can get the Vorsprung adjuster knob that turns your 3 way knob into a 3 way HSC knob


This is the first I'm hearing abut this and can't find it on their site. More info or link? Thanks.


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## crseekins (Oct 7, 2008)

evertsson said:


> I'm sure Craig is doing a great job, but I like to do it myself.
> I'm looking for a kit to upgrade the damper.
> 
> Also, I'm based in Sweden and I like to use my bike, the turnaround time for sending parts of it to the US seems steep.


This is self install cartridge, no need to send us the fork.


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## evertsson (Jul 15, 2020)

crseekins said:


> This is self install cartridge, no need to send us the fork.


Sounds good, which cartridge do you provide? Does it go well with the Smashpot?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

jasonp22 said:


> This is the first I'm hearing abut this and can't find it on their site. More info or link? Thanks.


My Bad, it transform Fit 4 dampers into a 3 position HSC knob for Fox forks. Not Rockshox
Sorry

https://vorsprungsuspension.com/products/fox-fit4-piston-kit

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## crseekins (Oct 7, 2008)

evertsson said:


> Sounds good, which cartridge do you provide? Does it go well with the Smashpot?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Works with Smashpot, ACS3 or our Hybrid coil system.

Rockshox Lyrik and Yari


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

evertsson said:


> ...Does it go well with the Smashpot?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes. Yes it does.









150mm Lyric/Yari Avalanche Cartridge. (without ABS)
Smashpot


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## endorium (Jan 31, 2019)

First proper ride on smashpot today at dyfi bike park (amazing place).

2020 Lyrik select+ fork. 
Off the top it feels great, bit could not get close to using full travel. Forks are 160mm. I reckon I am using 130mm no matter what i do with the bottom out knob.
Got spring based off chart. 100kg fully kitted so 60 spring. 

Bit annoyed as it seems i need quite a bit softer. Anyone else around that weight and what do you use?


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

endorium said:


> First proper ride on smashpot today at dyfi bike park (amazing place).
> 
> 2020 Lyrik select+ fork.
> Off the top it feels great, bit could not get close to using full travel. Forks are 160mm. I reckon I am using 130mm no matter what i do with the bottom out knob.
> ...


yep, 50lb is the magic number for me on a 170mm fork with a bit of compression and bottom out wound on. 97kg.

55lb would be the one for you.


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## vilt (Oct 26, 2020)

*Squishy, sloppy kiss sound when halfway through travel?*

Got a smashpot installed a few weeks back. Awesome piece of kit.

However, the last two rides were a bit more gnarly. Fork still performs great, but I notice a "squishy" sort of sound when halfway (more or less) through the travel. Like a quick sloppy kiss or a squeezing an orange. I cannot reproduce this when just pushing on the handlebars.

This cannot be anything but related to the hydraulic bottom out. But is it supposed to make that sound on the more hefty impacts?


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Can anyone provide a TL; DR version of this thread? 

Currently running a 2018 GRIP2 36 at 150 with a Luftkappe on my Druid. 11-6 in the rear. VERY happy with the setup. 

That said, thinking about going full coil over the winter with the Smashpot. 

I will read this thread later today or tomorrow but in the meantime, are there any high level takeaways? Anything I ought to be aware of on the downside besides weight? Is proper spring weight tough to nail? I am still not convinced I am on the optimum spring with my 11-6. That’s been the biggest downside for me so far for coil in the rear. 

Thanks.


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## GT87 (Mar 18, 2014)

endorium said:


> First proper ride on smashpot today at dyfi bike park (amazing place).
> 
> 2020 Lyrik select+ fork.
> Off the top it feels great, bit could not get close to using full travel. Forks are 160mm. I reckon I am using 130mm no matter what i do with the bottom out knob.
> ...


I'm also using a smashpot at 160mm in 2020 lyrik select+. 170lbs/77kg, 45lb spring. No trouble using full travel every ride and haven't experienced a harsh bottom-out yet.

I just looked at the spring rate chart and our relative weights line up almost exactly the same with our corresponding spring rates. Kinda surprised that you're not getting more travel, unless maybe you just have more travel and/or spring rate than you need for your riding? Maybe try riding with hbo almost wide open and only increase it if you bottom out. Or just try the 55lb coil, but I personally wouldn't want to go down to the 40


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## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

Smashpot here at 160mm in 2018 Lyric RCT3. 170lbs/77kg, mostly riding loose over hard and rocky, several enduro races a year. 

I had a 45lb in the fork and swapped it out for a 40lb about 6 weeks ago just because I had it sitting here and felt like experimenting. Fork is now divey and blows through travel. It still feels rough somehow. Not sure if my damper is unable to react to the deeper travel resulting from the softer spring during consecutive hits. I'm putting the 45lb back in this week.

Even with the 45lb, something still doesn't feel as awesome as everyone describes here. Don't get me wrong, it's great, but still feels rougher than I would expect. Again, especially during consecutive hits (think braking bumps all the way to multiple step-downs). Perhaps it's my RCT3 Charger 2 damper? Anyone else have experience and thoughts with this setup?


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## GT87 (Mar 18, 2014)

jasonp22 said:


> Smashpot here at 160mm in 2018 Lyric RCT3. 170lbs/77kg, mostly riding loose over hard and rocky, several enduro races a year.
> 
> I had a 45lb in the fork and swapped it out for a 40lb about 6 weeks ago just because I had it sitting here and felt like experimenting. Fork is now divey and blows through travel. It still feels rough somehow. Not sure if my damper is unable to react to the deeper travel resulting from the softer spring during consecutive hits. I'm putting the 45lb back in this week.
> 
> Even with the 45lb, something still doesn't feel as awesome as everyone describes here. Don't get me wrong, it's great, but still feels rougher than I would expect. Again, especially during consecutive hits (think braking bumps all the way to multiple step-downs). Perhaps it's my RCT3 Charger 2 damper? Anyone else have experience and thoughts with this setup?


Rebound too slow maybe?


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

Also make sure the fork bushings aren't too tight.
With the spring out, push and pull the fork through its range of motion and see if it hangs up anywhere or if there is a lot of friction.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

jasonp22 said:


> Smashpot here at 160mm in 2018 Lyric RCT3. 170lbs/77kg, mostly riding loose over hard and rocky, several enduro races a year.
> 
> I had a 45lb in the fork and swapped it out for a 40lb about 6 weeks ago just because I had it sitting here and felt like experimenting. Fork is now divey and blows through travel. It still feels rough somehow. Not sure if my damper is unable to react to the deeper travel resulting from the softer spring during consecutive hits. I'm putting the 45lb back in this week.
> 
> Even with the 45lb, something still doesn't feel as awesome as everyone describes here. Don't get me wrong, it's great, but still feels rougher than I would expect. Again, especially during consecutive hits (think braking bumps all the way to multiple step-downs). Perhaps it's my RCT3 Charger 2 damper? Anyone else have experience and thoughts with this setup?


The Charger RCT3 are harsh and divey. There's only so much a coil spring can do to disguise that.
That's why we do a steady trade unharsh modding and revalving them.


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## GT87 (Mar 18, 2014)

Dougal said:


> The Charger RCT3 are harsh and divey. There's only so much a coil spring can do to disguise that.
> That's why we do a steady trade unharsh modding and revalving them.


Any data to back up your claims? Less marketing bullshit from industry shills peddling their own products/services, please. Stop plugging your **** at every opportunity.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GT87 said:


> Any data to back up your claims? Less marketing bullshit from industry shills peddling their own products/services, please. Stop plugging your **** at every opportunity.


Have you never ever ridden a charger 2/2.1 RCT3?


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## GT87 (Mar 18, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Have you never ever ridden a charger 2/2.1 RCT3?


Irrelevant. You speak in hyperboles, and you don't hold yourself to the same unreasonable standards that you hold your competitors to in your efforts to discredit them. If your un-harsh mod was worth writing home about, you'd have satisfied customers that would pimp your services on your behalf on a user review forum, but you don't, so you have to contrive reasons to constantly plug your **** here.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GT87 said:


> Irrelevant. You speak in hyperboles, and you don't hold yourself to the same unreasonable standards that you hold your competitors to in your efforts to discredit them. If your un-harsh mod was worth writing home about, you'd have satisfied customers that would pimp your services on your behalf on a user review forum, but you don't, so you have to contrive reasons to constantly plug your **** here.


Need a hug bro?

I have satisifed customers right here who do that. But this is a smashpot thread so lets keep it to that huh?


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## GT87 (Mar 18, 2014)

Dougal said:


> Need a hug bro?
> 
> I have satisifed customers right here who do that. But this is a smashpot thread so lets keep it to that huh?


Exactly... it's a smashpot thread. Nobody cares about your dogshit un-harsh mod, so piss off and quit spamming.


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## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

GT87 said:


> Rebound too slow maybe?


Rebound is currently set 2 clicks from full fast. I guess that's further evidence the 40lb spring is too soft?


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## endorium (Jan 31, 2019)

So running a spring two weights lower than recommended but still can't get near full travel. Any ideas?


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## tkblazer (Sep 18, 2005)

endorium said:


> So running a spring two weights lower than recommended but still can't get near full travel. Any ideas?


Have you tried reshimming the hbo? I removed two shims on my pike and would only fully use all the travel on really steep g outs as I should. I never got full travel prior. I do run a spring as rated on their chart however


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

endorium said:


> So running a spring two weights lower than recommended but still can't get near full travel. Any ideas?


Lots of things, what kind of fork is it? Damper could be overfull of oil, might be stiction from the bushings, or it is just too much travel for the type of riding you do. This wouldn't necessarily be a problem if it rides well though, so how does it feel otherwise?


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Maybe you have too much travel for the trails you ride or your riding style?


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## bmwzimmer (Nov 4, 2015)

endorium said:


> So running a spring two weights lower than recommended but still can't get near full travel. Any ideas?


On very fast and very chunky trails, ideally I'd like to have 1/2-3/4" of travel left over. It is reserved for the OH **** moments. 
Did a trail with crazy steep surfing like conditions that was extremely technical and used only 2/3rd of the fork's travel which is EXACTLY what I want. Had LSC maxed out because I want that fork sitting as high as possible for this particular trail. I used the exact spring rate that was reccomended for my riding style and it works well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

Are you guys having issues with removing the coil from the lowers during servicing ? On my lyrik, I damaged two footstuds and nut threads so far while hammering a socket on the nut to dislodge the shaft. I emailed vorsprung twice about this, getting frustrated. I apply very little torque to avoid having this problem but so far, no change. I make sure to leave the topcap on and remove the plastic washer before hammering the footstud. It's super crazy tight, I'm always afraid of destroying the footstud threads. I'm thinking there"s a fit issue as I don't have this problem on my boxxer, pikes and damper side my coiled lyrik. 

the foodstud is replaceable but at 100$ a piece, it gets expensive to simply drop your lowers


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Charlo489 said:


> Are you guys having issues with removing the coil from the lowers during servicing ? On my lyrik, I damaged two footstuds and nut threads so far while hammering a socket on the nut to dislodge the shaft. I emailed vorsprung twice about this, getting frustrated. I apply very little torque to avoid having this problem but so far, no change. I make sure to leave the topcap on and remove the plastic washer before hammering the footstud. It's super crazy tight, I'm always afraid of destroying the footstud threads. I'm thinking there"s a fit issue as I don't have this problem on my boxxer, pikes and damper side my coiled lyrik.
> 
> the foodstud is replaceable but at 100$ a piece, it gets expensive to simply drop your lowers


Consider buying the correct tool that screws onto the foot stud for you to hit instead of hitting the nut on the thread.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

bmwzimmer said:


> On very fast and very chunky trails, ideally I'd like to have 1/2-3/4" of travel left over. It is reserved for the OH **** moments.
> Did a trail with crazy steep surfing like conditions that was extremely technical and used only 2/3rd of the fork's travel which is EXACTLY what I want. Had LSC maxed out because I want that fork sitting as high as possible for this particular trail. I used the exact spring rate that was reccomended for my riding style and it works well.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Pretty much how I set up my forks.

Other than owners of short travel forks (say 120mm or less), anyone who says you MUST bottom out your forks at least once on every ride, must either be a very consistent rider, ride the exact same trails every time, or be very vane.

My view is if the fork is supportive and has the correct front/rear attitude for the rider, with enough bottom out resistance for the occasional heavy hits, then it is set up well for me.


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

all right so i got a call from vorsprung regarding my issue and they will send me new footstu and gave me a few tips in the future (unthreading the topcap and using the fox tool instead of a socket). Anyway I'll certainly use those tips and hats off to them for their good customer service, it's pretty nice


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Charlo489 said:


> all right so i got a call from vorsprung regarding my issue and they will send me new footstu and gave me a few tips in the future (unthreading the topcap and using the fox tool instead of a socket). Anyway I'll certainly use those tips and hats off to them for their good customer service, it's pretty nice


What spring rate you running? I'm guessing the firmer springs might have more of an issue since you are hammering against a harder force (unless you unthread the top cap).

35Lb and 40Lb springs here, no problem.


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## Charlo489 (Apr 23, 2013)

45 lbs only


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## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

Apart from color, is there any difference between the red and black spring shrink wrap? I want to re-wrap mine and have the black one left over since I didn't need it for my RS fork. I can see where you can buy the smaller shrink wrap from Vorsprung for the shaft, but not for the springs.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

jasonp22 said:


> Apart from color, is there any difference between the red and black spring shrink wrap? I want to re-wrap mine and have the black one left over since I didn't need it for my RS fork. I can see where you can buy the smaller shrink wrap from Vorsprung for the shaft, but not for the springs.


the springs are 28mm OD

30/15mm is the go to in my experience.

the 40/20 is too baggy and moves after a solid day of riding.

Any decent electrical store/wholesale place should have that.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Evo6 said:


> Yes I have the same fork and 174mm is the max I can get. So I have backed out the bottom out control and the done my big drop off to bottom the forks and can get 180mm. I have serviced the fork a week ago and changed the oils and checked everything over and looked a great detail at the heat shrink but hasn't moved and preload is correct. So far I am very happy with the coil feed back on corners. Even with the bottom control backed out the impact isn't to crazy so tomorrow will slowly wind in the valve and see how we go.


I found the same outcome as well. With the air spring, on my Fox36 170 it had 178mm stanchion showing above the wipers.

Once Smashpot installed, it had only 173mm. It was noticeable that the front of the bike wasa sitting lower, particularly as with the coil I am running slightly more sag.

The solution was I had the 10mm travel reduction spacers machined down to 5mm. (replace the 10mm innner tube spacer with the new 5mm spacer so the fork can extend a further 5mm, and add a new 5mm spacer to the stack under the spring).

In theory this increases my travel to 175mm, but more importantly my static fork height is back to 178mm though.

I suspect this is more of a problem with lighter springs since it has less force to overcome the topout spring. (35lb spring here).


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

I found something which may finally be the answer to heatshrink sliding down the coil...

Flexi shrink. It uses polyolefin rings around a braided mesh of polyester. Once shrunken, it remains very flexible along its length and so it moves and folds with the spring coils as it compresses, rather than wanting to slide down it:

Shrinkflex® 2:1 Fabric | Techflex.com

Have had it in for about a dozen rides and it does not move at all.

Just need to be careful about not overshrinking it (suggest use a dowel or something inside the spring so the shrink does not reduce the inner diameter too much.


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## spanishflyaberdeen (May 29, 2005)

teK-- said:


> I found something which may finally be the answer to heatshrink sliding down the coil...
> 
> Flexi shrink. It uses polyolefin rings around a braided mesh of polyester. Once shrunken, it remains very flexible along its length and so it moves and folds with the spring coils as it compresses, rather than wanting to slide down it:
> 
> ...


Interesting idea, I originally utilised PVC tywraps to holing the heat shrink at the top and bottom and attached to the spring. (I used similar in my DH days with my 888s & Boxxers). 
However now I have just fitted heat shrink from the bottom of the spring to approx 100mm from the top so it has no space to roll down. I have no issues after 30ish rides


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

Which size did you use?



teK-- said:


> I found something which may finally be the answer to heatshrink sliding down the coil...
> 
> Flexi shrink. It uses polyolefin rings around a braided mesh of polyester. Once shrunken, it remains very flexible along its length and so it moves and folds with the spring coils as it compresses, rather than wanting to slide down it:
> 
> ...


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

spanishflyaberdeen said:


> Interesting idea, I originally utilised PVC tywraps to holing the heat shrink at the top and bottom and attached to the spring. (I used similar in my DH days with my 888s & Boxxers).
> However now I have just fitted heat shrink from the bottom of the spring to approx 100mm from the top so it has no space to roll down. I have no issues after 30ish rides


The issue with having too much heatshrink (the regular, rigid polyolefin type) is it can affect the spring rate. Steve mentioned this earlier.

With this flexible stuff I have noticed the spring is a lot more linear in the final couple inches of travel. But I can use the HSB to fine tune the bottom out.

I forgot to mention I used a long 1/2" socket extension wrapped in a few layers of tape, which fit snugly inside the spring before I shrunk the material down. This way there are no edges to catch on the inner tube assembly.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Scottyman said:


> Which size did you use?


30mm shrink to 15mm


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

I seemed to have solved my Shrink wrap woes.

Big one was going to 30:15mm, it's a tightish fit but It's stuck on there real good now. 

40:20 is too baggy at full shrink I have found, needs just that bit more bite on the spring.

I was getting between 2-5 rides out of 40:20 before it slid down, ever since changing to 30:15 it hasn't moved at all.


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## TheGenErik1 (Aug 14, 2019)

Looking at upgrading my 2021 Fox 36 Rhythm with Grip damper. Does the Grip damper work well with the Smashpot? Totally new to mountain biking as I come from riding and racing offroad on dirt bikes. Looking for better performance on the fast sections and small chatter.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

You have the GRIP damper in that fork, I think what you mean is the higher end GRIP 2. Theoretically GRIP 2 is a better damper, however some say it has quite a lot of compression damping, so whether the small bump will improve changing to GRIP 2 I wouldn't know. What I will say is I had a FOX 36 on my previous bike with the GRIP damper, same as you have in your RHYTHM and fitted a Smashpot and the fork was absolutely sublime, so so supple, small bump and traction was night and day better than air and midstroke support increased too, in all honesty just fit the Smashpot first and think about a GRIP 2 later as the GRIP 1 is actually a very good damper, just doesn't have loads of adjustments, I was more than happy with my GRIP 1 and Smashpot, it had plenty midstroke support so didn't dive all over the place, but was as supple as butter over small bumps, so much so that I probably wouldn't want it any more supple for fear of not feeling how much the front tyre is gripping at all, it's as supple as you'd ever want it just fitting the Smashpot and current damper, the front wheel grip increase so much also I was fearful I had to up my tyre pressures to avoid folding the sidewalls on high traction surfaces. Put it this way if you only had a choice between either fitting a Smashpot or a GRIP 2 damper the Smashpot will make massively more difference to how the fork feels. If you are of average weight, say in the region of 100kg then maybe you will benefit from the GRIP 2 simply as it has firmer low speed compression, but either way I would get the Smashpot first as that will make the biggest difference, I think you will be quite shocked how much of an improvement it will be. Only downside is you will notice the front end will be a bit heavier and harder to manual / wheelie but the wheel will stay stuck to the ground like glue.


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## SasquatchMTB (Dec 29, 2020)

R_Pierce said:


> True that! I'm riding a spring that SHOULD be way light for my weight. I'm about 290lbs kitted up and on a 55 lb spring at 160mm of travel. I don't huck a lot or ride stupid big drops. It works for me, and it's ridiculously plush!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Im 270 and ordered 70, 75 and 80. Jeez the way it sounds im going to be WAY over sprung😕


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## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

anyone put one of these in a zeb yet? I'm trying to stop myself from doing it.


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## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

minimusprime said:


> anyone put one of these in a zeb yet? I'm trying to stop myself from doing it.


Was going to ask the same question for a fox 38


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

A guy on Pinkbike says he is getting his Wednesday for the ZEB, hopefully he reports back. I know the Smashpot made a night and day difference in my 2018 FOX 36 but airsprings have since moved on and I was pretty impressed with the ZEB as it is, so I am hoping it will still be a big enough improvement to be worth the extra weight on these new forks.


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## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

roughly 500g heavier?


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

I think I'll go Secus on my 38. As much as I don't really care about weight, this Meta is 17.6kg, I don't want to hit 18 lol.

The airspring in the 38 is leaps and bounds better than the 36 (the "old" one) IMO. Barely needs much improving.


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## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

brash said:


> I think I'll go Secus on my 38. As much as I don't really care about weight, this Meta is 17.6kg, I don't want to hit 18 lol.
> 
> The airspring in the 38 is leaps and bounds better than the 36 (the "old" one) IMO. Barely needs much improving.


yeah that makes sense. ill try to tune to the 38 first to what I can get out of it. my mate has a shock wiz - which I will chuk on and tune from there when I get my new build.


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## Boner Champ (Mar 31, 2015)

onawave said:


> Was going to ask the same question for a fox 38


I've had mine in a 38 since February 25th. I previously had one in a 36 and loved it, so I already knew I was dead set on converting the 38 once it came out.

It's a massive improvement without a doubt. I have it on a '21 Enduro 29er with a DHX2 out back to match.

I'm currently working with them on diagnosing a knocking sound, but luckily it's just noise and doesn't seem to affect performance. I really feel more confident pushing through my front end in uneven terrain, and as we expect with coil, you really get that suppleness and sensitivity in the beginning of the stroke, while maintaining support through the midstroke. I can also really hear that sensitivity while climbing - As I'm pedaling up through terrain with a bunch of tiny bumps and rocks throughout, I can hear the "pfft pfft pfft" of the damper working as the fork reacts to every little bump.


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## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

Lazy Squirrel said:


> I've had mine in a 38 since February 25th. I previously had one in a 36 and loved it, so I already knew I was dead set on converting the 38 once it came out.
> 
> It's a massive improvement without a doubt. I have it on a '21 Enduro 29er with a DHX2 out back to match.
> 
> I'm currently working with them on diagnosing a knocking sound, but luckily it's just noise and doesn't seem to affect performance. I really feel more confident pushing through my front end in uneven terrain, and as we expect with coil, you really get that suppleness and sensitivity in the beginning of the stroke, while maintaining support through the midstroke. I can also really hear that sensitivity while climbing - As I'm pedaling up through terrain with a bunch of tiny bumps and rocks throughout, I can hear the "pfft pfft pfft" of the damper working as the fork reacts to every little bump.


so u think the weight gain on the fork is worth it? the actual weight post install is significant. for me - its all about the dh - however would like to ride up without dying. my current sb150 is built to be a heavy bike. roughly 17kg's. so I'm used to it - but was hoping to get the weight down on my new dreadnaught build.


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## Boner Champ (Mar 31, 2015)

onawave said:


> so u think the weight gain on the fork is worth it? the actual weight post install is significant. for me - its all about the dh - however would like to ride up without dying. my current sb150 is built to be a heavy bike. roughly 17kg's. so I'm used to it - but was hoping to get the weight down on my new dreadnaught build.


Easily worth it, without a doubt. When I'm building out a big enduro bike, downhill traction and control are my top priorities, and weight is what it is. I save weight where I can - I'm already running full XX1, carbon everything, etc., but I just mean I wouldn't ever compromise on DH performance for the sake of saving weight. I'm also running CushCore Pro on both ends and love the feeling so much, I'd never go without it, and the noticeable weight gain from the Smashpot is significantly less than that.

I honestly think that unless you're competitively racing XC or a guy that specifically chases uphill Strava times, bike weight doesn't matter. I think you just get used to whatever you're riding, especially if you only have one bike. My philosophy is that if you want to climb faster or be able to ride further, you can always just get stronger and more fit overall - it's the best free upgrade there is.

Just for the sake of comparison though, I do also have a Spur as my light bike and absolutely notice a significant weight difference when switching between bikes (38.4 vs 29.6 lbs), but that weight feeling completely disappears after 2 or 3 rides in a row on the same bike. However, while I do get used to the Enduro's heavier weight pretty quickly, the Spur will always be sketchy on certain terrain. I could lighten up my Enduro a bit by ditching the CushCore and going back to full air, and it'd feel a bit lighter on the first ride, but after a couple rides, it'd just feel normal again, and I'd be missing out on the huge advantages gained from those heavier bits.

Back to the main point though, the one thing I do feel strongly about is either running full coil or full air both ends. I personally don't like the mismatched feeling of an air fork and coil shock.


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## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

Lazy Squirrel said:


> Easily worth it, without a doubt. When I'm building out a big enduro bike, downhill traction and control are my top priorities, and weight is what it is. I save weight where I can - I'm already running full XX1, carbon everything, etc., but I just mean I wouldn't ever compromise on DH performance for the sake of saving weight. I'm also running CushCore Pro on both ends and love the feeling so much, I'd never go without it, and the noticeable weight gain from the Smashpot is significantly less than that.
> 
> I honestly think that unless you're competitively racing XC or a guy that specifically chases uphill Strava times, bike weight doesn't matter. I think you just get used to whatever you're riding, especially if you only have one bike. My philosophy is that if you want to climb faster or be able to ride further, you can always just get stronger and more fit overall - it's the best free upgrade there is.
> 
> ...


yeah interesting. im currently running cushcore in my yeti with alu rims tho.

on the new bike im going with weareone unions. they recommended i dont run the cushcore in their carbon rims for performance benefits. obs this will drop the weight a bit and also moving to the carbon rims.

it makes sense that you would prefer having as much traction as possible in the front and back. ive read in this thead and other places that the new 38 is still a lot better than the old 36. i have had the smashpot in the front of my 36 for so long now i dont know any difference.

so i have two options.

1. run the 38 and put a shock wiz on it to see how i go. im inclined to doing this.
2.just jump straight into the smashpot with the 38.

fyi ill also have the new 11-6 in the back on the dreadnaught.


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## Boner Champ (Mar 31, 2015)

onawave said:


> yeah interesting. im currently running cushcore in my yeti with alu rims tho.
> 
> on the new bike im going with weareone unions. they recommended i dont run the cushcore in their carbon rims for performance benefits. obs this will drop the weight a bit and also moving to the carbon rims.
> 
> ...


Well I think you already know where my vote goes. Either way though, sounds like it'll be a sweet bike!


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## SasquatchMTB (Dec 29, 2020)

Why do i even need the shrink wrap around the outer body?


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

I'd get the ZEB if you are changing the airspring to the Smashpot. Only real advantage of the 38 over the ZEB is the more supportive airspring, ZEB can wollow a bit into it's travel on consecutive hits... and the GRIP 2 has more settings to play with but generally is suitable for heavier riders due to a firm base tune. The ZEB is slightly less stiff than the 38 fore and aft, Rockshox supposedly didn't want to overdo it and make it too stiff fore and aft so it doesn't feel harsh and get deflected....But one of the German magazines tested the stiffness of both forks and although the ZEB is a few points less stiff fore and aft it is 'significantly' stiffer than the 38 torsionally...so significant it is practically twice as stiff than the 38 in twisting forces. The Rockshox is a much better chassis, superior stiffness where you want it, not too much where you don't and lighter weight...Smashpot will perform the same way in either fork. This leaves just the damper, Charger 2.1 and GRIP 2 are both great, but either can be made better by a custom tune or Avy upgrade. Based on all this I went with the ZEB. I can tune all the internals and fit coils etc but you can't tune the chassis stiffness and weight.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

SasquatchMTB said:


> View attachment 1920788
> Why do i even need the shrink wrap around the outer body?


To help reduce noise/spring rattle?


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## SasquatchMTB (Dec 29, 2020)

Can l use Fox gold oil for the oil?


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

SasquatchMTB said:


> View attachment 1920788
> Why do i even need the shrink wrap around the outer body?


?..?..?


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## SasquatchMTB (Dec 29, 2020)

Even in the parking lot test I can tell the Smashpot is going to be AWESOME!!! 😎


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

How do you get the recommended torque on the parts where you need to use cone wrenches. I have a torque wrench, and I can buy some cone wrenches but how do you use the two together or can you just go by hand and do it firm but not over do it?


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## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

Danzzz88 said:


> How do you get the recommended torque on the parts where you need to use cone wrenches. I have a torque wrench, and I can buy some cone wrenches but how do you use the two together or can you just go by hand and do it firm but not over do it?


Went by hand as best I could. I have not had an issue in the several times I did it.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Yea thinking that. So hard to find the correct adapters for the torque wrench otherwise. Are cone spanners neccessary or can you get to them with regular spanners?


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## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

Cone spanners were necessary for me, regular spanners were too thick.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Wondering if one of those thin adjustable tapered wrenches will work.


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## JonF1 (Oct 2, 2019)

Danzzz88 said:


> How do you get the recommended torque on the parts where you need to use cone wrenches. I have a torque wrench, and I can buy some cone wrenches but how do you use the two together or can you just go by hand and do it firm but not over do it?


you can buy adapters that grip a standard wrench and have a 3/8" square drive to snap on your torque wrench. Some clamp on, others just capture the wrench with some prongs.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

JonF1 said:


> you can buy adapters that grip a standard wrench and have a 3/8" square drive to snap on your torque wrench. Some clamp on, others just capture the wrench with some prongs.


Do they come with some type of conversion table for torque values based on a specified offset?
Would not any offset from the torque wrench drives centerline change the leverage ratios throwing the indicated values out the window?


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## JonF1 (Oct 2, 2019)

mykel said:


> Do they come with some type of conversion table for torque values based on a specified offset?
> Would not any offset from the torque wrench drives centerline change the leverage ratios throwing the indicated values out the window?


You orient the wrench 90 degrees to the torque wrench and thus the torque value is the same since you've not increased the overall length. Interestingly, Vorsprung suggests using such adapters in thier own installation manuals and illustrates how to orient it.

Check out p4 of the Secus manual:


https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0767/8621/files/SECUS-InstallationManual-FOXA2_revA.pdf?v=1604701816


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

In the end I just installed it by hand, far too much faff and money trying to find adapters and tools etc. Just nip everything up by hand till it stops and give it a tiny bit extra with a wrench, like a 1/16th of a turn. No issues at all with mine. I don't think the torque is too important at all as long as you don't overtighten. In terms of under tightening I don't think it really ends up being a big issue as once the whole part is installed in the fork it's under a tiny bit of preload anyway preventing stuff from backing out and turning, not to mention even if it was possible to all unscrew, it can't because the damper is preventing the lowers from dropping far enough for the Smashpot to fully disassemble anyway.

Try and torque the lower leg nut correctly though as I've seen a guy snap that right off overdoing it with a torque wrench.


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## TheGenErik1 (Aug 14, 2019)

Anyone know of a place with a Smashpot for Fox 36 in stock?


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

In the UK yes if you are willing to wait for shipping and pay a bit extra?
Though in that case you might aswell just order straight from the Vorsprung website, probably will work out cheaper, it's £50 more to buy it in the UK so I guess if you buy direct, after import tax from Canada you will pay the same as roughly RRP for us here in the UK.


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## SasquatchMTB (Dec 29, 2020)

So do different oils provide a different feel? Im running Redline 0W 20 oil and its really thin. How much difference would Fox Gold oil make considering its so thick?


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## SasquatchMTB (Dec 29, 2020)

In case anyone wants to know. These are the shrink wraps they use. 


https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07FPLF5KQ?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

SasquatchMTB said:


> So do different oils provide a different feel? Im running Redline 0W 20 oil and its really thin. How much difference would Fox Gold oil make considering its so thick?


Not sure but I'm keen to try it out, I presume it would make the hydraulic bottom out more pronounced the thicker the viscosity?

I run fox 20wt gold in mine and I think it works well. Full open on the adjustor is basically fully linear, closed feels like a boatload of spacers but smoother ramp up.


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

SasquatchMTB said:


> In case anyone wants to know. These are the shrink wraps they use.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07FPLF5KQ?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title


Makes a lot of sense the 3:1 wrap, all the electrical wholesalers here only have 2:1 so you have to get the wrap that just fits over the spring, then reduce it down. Either way it works well.


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

SasquatchMTB said:


> In case anyone wants to know. These are the shrink wraps they use.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07FPLF5KQ?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title


Are you sure? That particular one is adhesive lined. I thought VS used standard heat shrink material without heat activated glue inside.


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## SasquatchMTB (Dec 29, 2020)

The product in the amazon link is exactly the same (different company perhaps) wrap as what came included with all three springs l purchased.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

SasquatchMTB said:


> In case anyone wants to know. These are the shrink wraps they use.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07FPLF5KQ?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title


No way, that'd stiffen up the springs massively.

Use 2:1 shrink without glue inside.


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## SasquatchMTB (Dec 29, 2020)

Ok. Under closer inspection Chris2fur was correct. The inside does have a different feel to it and that must be the glue. I really thought l had it right🥺


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## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

Unfortunately it looks unavailable now, but this is what I bought and used. I recently serviced my fork and the wrap is still in the exact same place after 5 months.








30mm Dia Heat Shrink Tubing 2:1 Ratio Shrinkable Polyolefin Tubes Black,1M Length 50mm Flat Width: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific


30mm Dia Heat Shrink Tubing 2:1 Ratio Shrinkable Polyolefin Tubes Black,1M Length 50mm Flat Width: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



 www.amazon.com


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## mmmmtnbkr1 (Jul 21, 2013)

You want single wall, 2:1 shrink ratio, polyolefin, non adhesive. 
For the spring, 1.25" pre-shrunk diameter is optimal, but 1.5" will probably also work.
For the aluminum tube that lies inside the spring, you want 3/4" preshrunk diameter.

Here is a pack that will let you do 2 springs and have some other assorted sizes left over for projects. 

Here is a roll for doing the aluminum tube that sits inside the spring. Select 3/4"

Note that Amazon listings like this tend to change over time, so if you read this in the future just make sure the listing matches the specs above.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

How the actual fk do you remove the Smashpot? I've unscrewed the top cap and no amount of hammering the foot nut when unscrewed is releasing the foot stud from the lower legs.


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

Danzzz88 said:


> How the actual fk do you remove the Smashpot? I've unscrewed the top cap and no amount of hammering the foot nut when unscrewed is releasing the foot stud from the lower legs.


Had the same issue... Solved by more bashing.

Tried to pry the plastic washer off, but didn't really succeed, so I just bashed with unreasonable force (albeit with smallish plastic hammer) until it gave up.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Yea I did it in the end, screwed the foot nut on just a little bit, put a socket on and bashed the socket firmly with a hammer and it popped out, being careful not to wack the needle.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Danzzz88 said:


> Yea I did it in the end, screwed the foot nut on just a little bit, put a socket on and bashed the socket firmly with a hammer and it popped out, being careful not to wack the needle.


I did that method and stripped the threads on the foot nut. Next time I'll remove the plastic washer first. Vorsprung sells replacement foot nuts but I think I'll have them replace it along with a service if the Canada border ever opens and I go visit Whistler.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Yea I did bugger the threads a bit too as I didn't screw it on enough as I was scared of getting too close to the needle with the socket/hammer.. but it went back together in the end after rethreading the first turn of the nut with a bit of force when screwing it back together so I'm not too fussed.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Danzzz88 said:


> Yea I did bugger the threads a bit too as I didn't screw it on enough as I was scared of getting too close to the needle with the socket/hammer.. but it went back together in the end after rethreading the first turn of the nut with a bit of force when screwing it back together so I'm not too fussed.


I managed to get mine back too but I don't want to risk getting lucky a second time.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Anyone else find the fork ramps up way too quick even with reduced bottom out shims? I have only 2 shims instead of 4, running 35lb spring 180mm at 72kg / 160lb body weight and past half travel even at low speeds the fork gets really hard to compress. I never use more than 2/3 travel even on rough stuff byt the spring weight according for the chart is bordering right on medium and soft. I'm currently getting between 20 and 25% sag. The start of travel is super soft but bottom half is pretty damn firm. Wonder if it's the combination of spring, high oil volume and big travel causing too much air compression due to the low volume inside?


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## dlxah (Nov 5, 2014)

Danzzz88 said:


> Anyone else find the fork ramps up way too quick even with reduced bottom out shims? I have only 2 shims instead of 4, running 35lb spring 180mm at 72kg / 160lb body weight and past half travel even at low speeds the fork gets really hard to compress. I never use more than 2/3 travel even on rough stuff byt the spring weight according for the chart is bordering right on medium and soft. I'm currently getting between 20 and 25% sag. The start of travel is super soft but bottom half is pretty damn firm. Wonder if it's the combination of spring, high oil volume and big travel causing too much air compression due to the low volume inside?


That chart doesn't account for the geometry of your bike, your personal riding style, weight distribution, arm strength, etc. I wouldn't take it as gospel.

I've got a 2019 Fox 36 Grip 2 170mm with the Smashpot. Started on the 35 lb spring based on the chart for soft/medium, and it I felt like I had to really hammer on it to get anywhere near full travel even with HBO fully open and HSC/LSC both basically fully open. Despite that, the fork still felt pretty good, but I decided to try the 30 lb spring just to see. I immediately preferred the lighter coil. With the lighter coil I can now actually use the first few clicks of compression damping and HBO to tune the feel of the fork and control how much travel I use and it just feels a little more plush and controlled all around. Might be worth a try for you too.

If the fork is actually ramping up hard half way through the travel, though, you may also want to double check your bath oil volume.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

dlxah said:


> That chart doesn't account for the geometry of your bike, your personal riding style, weight distribution, arm strength, etc. I wouldn't take it as gospel.
> 
> I've got a 2019 Fox 36 Grip 2 170mm with the Smashpot. Started on the 35 lb spring based on the chart for soft/medium, and it I felt like I had to really hammer on it to get anywhere near full travel even with HBO fully open and HSC/LSC both basically fully open. Despite that, the fork still felt pretty good, but I decided to try the 30 lb spring just to see. I immediately preferred the lighter coil. With the lighter coil I can now actually use the first few clicks of compression damping and HBO to tune the feel of the fork and control how much travel I use and it just feels a little more plush and controlled all around. Might be worth a try for you too.
> 
> If the fork is actually ramping up hard half way through the travel, though, you may also want to double check your bath oil volume.


That's because of the 2019 GRIP2 damper though. It's got a harsh feel that encourages you to drop spring-rate below ideal.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

It's a 180mm travel ZEB. Bike is an sb165 so 63.5 head angle and shortish chainstays. I lubed the hell out of my wiper seals and it's a lot better now but I'm running the crappy select damper. Idk why but 30lb just seems too soft, that's like nearly bottom of the spring weight chart isn't it?


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## dlxah (Nov 5, 2014)

Danzzz88 said:


> It's a 180mm travel ZEB. Bike is an sb165 so 63.5 head angle and shortish chainstays. I lubed the hell out of my wiper seals and it's a lot better now but I'm running the crappy select damper. Idk why but 30lb just seems too soft, that's like nearly bottom of the spring weight chart isn't it?


Short chainstays + super slack head angle with a long fork = less weight on the front wheel unless you lean more on your hands to account for it. But yeah, 30 lb/in is the softest spring Vorsprung sells. That doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong, though.


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## dlxah (Nov 5, 2014)

Dougal said:


> That's because of the 2019 GRIP2 damper though. It's got a harsh feel that encourages you to drop spring-rate below ideal.


Definitely a possibility, but in any case, my point still stands. That's just another factor that the spring rate chart doesn't account for.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Danzzz88 said:


> It's a 180mm travel ZEB. Bike is an sb165 so 63.5 head angle and shortish chainstays. I lubed the hell out of my wiper seals and it's a lot better now but I'm running the crappy select damper. Idk why but 30lb just seems too soft, that's like nearly bottom of the spring weight chart isn't it?


This is what 30lb/in (air not coil though), looks like on a girls bike:

__
http://instagr.am/p/CNRJjL-FZJn/

It is way too soft for a 70something kg gym bunny. No matter how long and slack your bike, in some situations you have all your body weight on the fork.
If @Danzzz88 SB165 is a large then my bike is the same wheelbase and about a degree steeper. I'm running 40lb/in equivalent.


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## dlxah (Nov 5, 2014)

Dougal, I'm just trying to be helpful. That's fine if you disagree with me. But if you're going to come in here saying that I'm wrong (because "girls use that spring rate"?), can you please at least provide something constructive to go along with it? What do you think Dnazzz88 should try to improve his suspension setup?


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

head angle definately plays a part.

When I went from Stumpy Evo to 2020 commencal meta I had to up the rate purely on angle of incidence to the trail (head angle) as the Meta is 2 Degrees steeper.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

dlxah said:


> Dougal, I'm just trying to be helpful. That's fine if you disagree with me. But if you're going to come in here saying that I'm wrong (because "girls use that spring rate"?), can you please at least provide something constructive to go along with it? What do you think Dnazzz88 should try to improve his suspension setup?


I've got over 100 helpful replies to @Danzzz88 across three or four threads. Either his fork is binding or he's riding really conservatively. His other thread has about 400 replies.

40lb/in is where he should be. 35lb/in is soft but still very ridable.


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## Makten (Feb 25, 2014)

Danzzz88 said:


> Anyone else find the fork ramps up way too quick even with reduced bottom out shims? I have only 2 shims instead of 4, running 35lb spring 180mm at 72kg / 160lb body weight and past half travel even at low speeds the fork gets really hard to compress. I never use more than 2/3 travel even on rough stuff byt the spring weight according for the chart is bordering right on medium and soft. I'm currently getting between 20 and 25% sag. The start of travel is super soft but bottom half is pretty damn firm. Wonder if it's the combination of spring, high oil volume and big travel causing too much air compression due to the low volume inside?


Yes, mine was impossible to bottom out with the stock shim stack and the needle fully open. Even with the stack removed (spacers closest to the holes = open all the time), the Smashpot adds considerable damping to the last 3-4 centimeters of stroke because the holes are incredibly small. You can try it when/if you open up the fork next time. Pull out the spring and cycle the shaft and you'll feel the hydraulic damping at the bottom. Initially I used Fox Gold 20 oil, which is extremely thick (more like 80 wt) and made it even worse. I'd recommend something thinner for the Smashpot, and don't be afraid to ditch the shim stack completely (but you must use spacers or rearrange the stack to being always open, because without anything there it will be completely closed instead).

Spring rate depends very much on travel and how aggressively you ride. I'm 85 kg on a 50 lb/in spring @ 130 mm and I never bottom out (Pike with Charger 2.1 more or less fully open), because I use the bike for something that is more "chunky XC" than downhill oriented stuff. No drops higher than ~1 meter (almost always to flat though) and never faster than ~30-40 km/h (more often 15-20). But lots of rocks and roots, that requires good suspension and/or squishy large tires.
So, I can't even relate to the charts because they are for a completely different user case. I tried 45 lb/in and it was much "better", except I ran a tad too deep in the travel (+30% sag). I first ordered the Smashpot with a 55 lb/in spring that is still borderline "soft" for my weight and the fork travel, but it was completely unrideable. Just harsh, horrible, worthless.

So, unless you are riding at warp speed like the folks designing these things (and internet warriors), just take everything down a notch or two will make it fit better.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Danzzz88 said:


> Yea I did it in the end, screwed the foot nut on just a little bit, put a socket on and bashed the socket firmly with a hammer and it popped out, being careful not to wack the needle.


I asked one of the techs at Volsprung and using the foot nut and socket is the way they do it. Screw it on to leave a mm, whack it, loosen it more, whack it......and so on.


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## masterp2 (Mar 4, 2007)

Did anyone here with a weight over 180lb, 85kg, significantly improve there bottom out experience by repositioning main shim stack washers?


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Makten said:


> Initially I used Fox Gold 20 oil, which is extremely thick (more like 80 wt) and made it even worse. I'd recommend something thinner for the Smashpot, and don't be afraid to ditch the shim stack completely (but you must use spacers or rearrange the stack to being always open, because without anything there it will be completely closed instead).


Interesting. I have used some fox 20 gold in as well as some Lucas 20wt fork oil. I can bottom out, but only if the bottom out dial was fully open and a 3ft drop to flat with my ebike.

When I first installed the Smashpot, I used some RS 0-30 and some 7 wt oil because I spill my 20wt all over the floor and that mixture was all I had at the time. The thinner oil gave me more control with the bottom out dial. I just did a 50hr service.

I'm debating whether to pull 20ml out of the fork and replace it with some 2.5 wt oil to thin things a bit.


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

Anyone installed smashpot on Zeb?
I ordered a Zeb topcap when it was just announced. It came with one metal ring and two plastic rings, which are not mentioned anywhere on the installation guide. I would think they are used to keep PVC sleeve from falling down. I went through the current smashpot installation manual twice and I can't see it there. Any ideas?


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## Dr.Flow (Jul 6, 2011)

Just ask Steve about it, he is really quick responding to emails.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

ben_mtb said:


> Anyone installed smashpot on Zeb?
> I ordered a Zeb topcap when it was just announced. It came with one metal ring and two plastic rings, which are not mentioned anywhere on the installation guide. I would think they are used to keep PVC sleeve from falling down. I went through the current smashpot installation manual twice and I can't see it there. Any ideas?
> 
> View attachment 1930405


Yup they are for the pvc sleeve. But flick Vorsprung a message and they will clear it up and likely update the guide pretty quickly


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

So, it appears that the 'hydraulic bottom out' is speed sensitive rather than position sensitive. Does this mean it is analogous to a high speed compression circuit? What difference could you expect by, for example, fully opening your dampers HSC and closing the HBO as compared to closing HSC and opening HBO?


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

Whilst speed sensitive, it doesn't really have any perceivable effects throughout the stroke like compression. 

My smashpot is on a 36 with a fitgrip sweep damper (rythym 36) so I dial it in with enough LSC to keep brake dive in check and geo maitenance but I'd call it definately on the "open" side of the fence. The HBO works so well you don't notice it. I mean that in a good way. 

The Z1 coil should sell a bazillion of them but hasn't really taken off like I thought it would. Besides the HBO difference it would be a killer fork in a standard off the shelf guise.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

half_man_half_scab said:


> So, it appears that the 'hydraulic bottom out' is speed sensitive rather than position sensitive. Does this mean it is analogous to a high speed compression circuit? What difference could you expect by, for example, fully opening your dampers HSC and closing the HBO as compared to closing HSC and opening HBO?


HSC operates throughout the stroke. HBO only works for a limited stroke at the end.

Your compression damping needs set to provide the support required. Going softer isn't going to help you.


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## stuart24 (Mar 12, 2020)

Just install my Smashpot into a 170mm Lyric, I notice the current travel becomes to 165mm. Is it a common issue or not? The sag is right so I think it is not a big problem.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

Got my Zeb parts in the mail. Any more info on where the rings @ben_mtb mentioned go? Where the snap ring for the old air seal head was?


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## Boner Champ (Mar 31, 2015)

stuart24 said:


> Just install my Smashpot into a 170mm Lyric, I notice the current travel becomes to 165mm. Is it a common issue or not? The sag is right so I think it is not a big problem.


Same thing happened with my 170mm Fox 38 - axle to crown was reduced by 5mm, and when I've measured to the o-ring after hard bottom outs, I'm only now getting 165mm.


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## stuart24 (Mar 12, 2020)

Boner Champ said:


> Same thing happened with my 170mm Fox 38 - axle to crown was reduced by 5mm, and when I've measured to the o-ring after hard bottom outs, I'm only now getting 165mm.


I think effective travel is from the sag point to the end, the 5mm doesn't matter as long as the sag is correct.


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## Boner Champ (Mar 31, 2015)

stuart24 said:


> I think effective travel is from the sag point to the end, the 5mm doesn't matter as long as the sag is correct.


Sag has nothing to do with total travel. Travel is defined as the stroke distance from fully extended to bottom out.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

Just cut one of the travel spacers in half to get back your 5mm?


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## stuart24 (Mar 12, 2020)

Boner Champ said:


> Sag has nothing to do with total travel. Travel is defined as the stroke distance from fully extended to bottom out.





Boner Champ said:


> Sag has nothing to do with total travel. Travel is defined as the stroke distance from fully extended to bottom out.


I mean effective travel, not total travel. You won't use the beginning 10-15% travel while riding.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

Is ‘fully extended’ as measured with wheel on the ground? If so, could be sagging from bike weight.


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## Boner Champ (Mar 31, 2015)

half_man_half_scab said:


> Is 'fully extended' as measured with wheel on the ground? If so, could be sagging from bike weight.


"Fully extended" is in the stand after pulling the fork down to make sure it's fully extended.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

stuart24 said:


> I mean effective travel, not total travel. You won't use the beginning 10-15% travel while riding.


Effective travel is from top out to bottom out. If you wheelie or jump or ride rough terrain the fork fully extends which then means you use that beginning 10-15% travel when you land.


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## fireflywa (Aug 27, 2020)

Oil question. Maybe I'm inept and failing to properly search the internet. I have Fox Gold 20wt coming to install my Zeb smashpot that's in transit. But I'm reading a lot of "fox gold is too heavy and bad" posts. The intent is to reduce the HBO shims to 2 during initial install.

So...what's a better oil to use? And for future reference (since I don't have enough on hand), will Supergliss 100k work?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

fireflywa said:


> The intent is to reduce the HBO shims to 2 during initial install.


Tell me about this, please. Why two?


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## fireflywa (Aug 27, 2020)

Nat said:


> Tell me about this, please. Why two?


Gut feel starting point based on reading forum posts.

1) I'm getting a 45 spring which puts me at "medium" on the chart, 40 is in the backorder queue
2) Sounds like a lot of people are running the HBO full open, I'd like some usable tuning range
3) I'm not a crazy aggressive rider who needs a lot of tokens/IRT pressure/HSC to prevent bottoming
4) Sounds like the HBO is firmer with the fox gold high viscosity

Really it's just a hunch, but I'd rather have a light shim stack with many usable clicks on adjustment, rather than firm with only a couple clicks.


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## fizzywater (Oct 1, 2005)

fireflywa said:


> Oil question. Maybe I'm inept and failing to properly search the internet. I have Fox Gold 20wt coming to install my Zeb smashpot that's in transit. But I'm reading a lot of "fox gold is too heavy and bad" posts. The intent is to reduce the HBO shims to 2 during initial install.
> 
> So...what's a better oil to use? And for future reference (since I don't have enough on hand), will Supergliss 100k work?


Fox Gold 20wt is what I used after checking with Vorsprung and it works very well for my weight range with the standard HBO setup. I am 145-155 out of the shower and HBO 10 clicks out from fully closed as my default setup.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Boner Champ (Mar 31, 2015)

I'm running the Fox Gold oil on a 170mm 38, weighing in at 145lbs with a 35lb/in spring. I had previously been hitting a wall of damping resistance and couldn't use more than ~155mm. I thought it was the oil or shims, but after opening it up again, I found that the cartridge tube heat shrink had slid down and partially covered the vent holes. After fixing it, I could bottom it quite easily at fully open (15 clicks total on mine). I'm now running it at 8 clicks out from closed.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

fireflywa said:


> Gut feel starting point based on reading forum posts.
> 
> 1) I'm getting a 45 spring which puts me at "medium" on the chart, 40 is in the backorder queue
> 2) Sounds like a lot of people are running the HBO full open, I'd like some usable tuning range
> ...


I'm 170# on a 45# spring, Fox Gold 20wt, HBO with four main shims, HBO fully open, 2019 Lyrik at 170mm. Even landing hard off the biggest drop-offs that I'm comfortable doing I have not fully bottomed the fork and have about 1cm travel remaining. Maybe I'll move one more shim over.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

For anyone around average weight I wouldn't recommend the full 4 shims or FOX 20wt, you won't get anywhere near full travel even jumping on the bars. I suggest 2 shims and a lighter weight oil, then fiddle the adjuster to fine tune. With 4 shims and a relatively light 7.5wt leg oil I was getting severe ramp up at around half travel and only able to use about 70% of travel max on regular trail rides. You gotta think, max shims is 4, and that's probably more for the heaviest of guys around like 250lbs, Around 170lbs 4 shims is far too much, unless you huck to flat like Ratboy on freeride lines all the time and even then I wouldn't be surprised if it's too much.
Supergliss 100k will be miles too thick for the Smashpot, and still too thick for a regular air fork in anything ither than the hottest temperatures. Even with only 7.5wt oil in my lowers I can tell a substantial difference in suppleness and reactiveness of the fork when it's say 5-10 celsius compared to 20+ Celsius.. now summer has hit the UK my suspension has become a lot softer after it has increased by around 10-15 celsius from a couple months ago.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Danzzz88 said:


> You gotta think, max shims is 4, and that's probably more for the heaviest of guys around like 250lbs, Around 170lbs 4 shims is far too much, unless you huck to flat like Ratboy on freeride lines all the time and even then I wouldn't be surprised if it's too much.


Stock setup is five shims though?


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Well whatever it is, can't remember how many came in it, but I know I changed to two either way after follwing someone elses advice of similar weight on the forums and it was miles better...I tried the full stack to begin with and all it ends uo doing is causing the hassle of having to drain so much oil, get grease everywhere and worry about it attracting contaminents. Removing the Smashpot is a very messy job, not to mention it takes a large amount of force to tap the foot stud free from the lowers risking damage. With the Smashpot it's best to do it right the first time, fit and forget as it's such a messy job.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Danzzz88 said:


> Well whatever it is, can't remember how many came in it, but I know I changed to two either way after follwing someone elses advice of similar weight on the forums and it was miles better...I tried the full stack to begin with and all it ends uo doing is causing the hassle of having to drain so much oil, get grease everywhere and worry about it attracting contaminents. Removing the Smashpot is a very messy job, not to mention it takes a large amount of force to tap the foot stud free from the lowers risking damage. With the Smashpot it's best to do it right the first time, fit and forget as it's such a messy job.


Have you got full travel yet?


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Dougal said:


> Have you got full travel yet?


 I don't expect to use full travel on local XC trails, I use around 80% normally, ofc I have hit full travel doing stupid stuff like dropping to flat off stuff around the local area etc but if I was using 100% travel on my local trails I wouldn't want to use the same setup at the bikepark for which the bike is mainly intended for. Though using around 150mm of travel for local flattish trails I think is very reasonable. I live in Manchester after all, not Colorado.


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## ben_mtb (Feb 23, 2018)

half_man_half_scab said:


> Got my Zeb parts in the mail. Any more info on where the rings @ben_mtb mentioned go? Where the snap ring for the old air seal head was?


Vorsprung updated the way pvc liner is held in the stanchion for 38/zeb. I ordered only zeb topcap sometime in Feb when it came out. At that time pvc liner was held from the bottom using two plastic rings and a snap ring. The new way is what's in the current install manual. It uses spring perch to pinch hold the pvc in the top of the stanchion. Vorsprung sent me the new updated spring perches. But I installed it before I got the new spring perches using the old method, with plastic rings and snap ring in the bottom where air seal used to be.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

Got my Zeb kit last night. Install went very smoothly. Perhaps the only hiccup was jamming the assembly into the uppers with the pvc sleeve in place. It could be a little thinner perhaps? If it were a tube instead of a sheet that needs to be burrito’d, that would be more elegant as well.

I set travel to 160. I'm 205 lbs (with gear) and wanted a softer setup, and went with a 45 inch/lb spring. Based upon the comments in this thread I took out two shims from the HBO stack and used some 10wt Motorex fork oil I had lying around in abundance.

First ride was amazing, noticeable small bump and traction improvements. 4 clicks out from closed gives me just the right amount of bottom out resistance, about 5 mm of travel left, assuming bottom out o-ring position remains unchanged. I almost want an intermediate 4.5 clicks, but I'm not sure if I can increase the granularity of the clicks. Perhaps by messing with oil weight? I think removing one shim would have been fine and given me a broader usable range.


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## fireflywa (Aug 27, 2020)

half_man_half_scab said:


> Got my Zeb kit last night. Install went very smoothly. Perhaps the only hiccup was jamming the assembly into the uppers with the pvc sleeve in place. It could be a little thinner perhaps? If it were a tube instead of a sheet that needs to be burrito'd, that would be more elegant as well.
> 
> I set travel to 160. I'm 205 lbs (with gear) and wanted a softer setup, and went with a 45 inch/lb spring. Based upon the comments in this thread I took out two shims from the HBO stack and used some 10wt Motorex fork oil I had lying around in abundance.
> 
> First ride was amazing, noticeable small bump and traction improvements. 4 clicks out from closed gives me just the right amount of bottom out resistance, about 5 mm of travel left, assuming bottom out o-ring position remains unchanged. I almost want an intermediate 4.5 clicks, but I'm not sure if I can increase the granularity of the clicks. Perhaps by messing with oil weight? I think removing one shim would have been fine and given me a broader usable range.


What are you getting for sag with the 45lb spring at 205lbs? I'm about 15-18lbs less than you geared up and have a 45lb spring ready to install on a 160 Zeb, but wondering if I should wait until the 40 I ordered (supposedly) ships towards the end of this month =/ I really don't want to deal with changing the spring out a few weeks after initial install... My current forked is jacked up to hell and back and needs replacing bad, but the Zeb I have is currently 150. Decisions decisions!


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

I’m at about 22%. This is with one of the main spring preload spacers in place to mitigate rattling (there’s none).


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## Boner Champ (Mar 31, 2015)

fireflywa said:


> What are you getting for sag with the 45lb spring at 205lbs? I'm about 15-18lbs less than you geared up and have a 45lb spring ready to install on a 160 Zeb, but wondering if I should wait until the 40 I ordered (supposedly) ships towards the end of this month =/ I really don't want to deal with changing the spring out a few weeks after initial install... My current forked is jacked up to hell and back and needs replacing bad, but the Zeb I have is currently 150. Decisions decisions!


Changing the spring takes less than 10 minutes. I'd just run it with the 45 and change later if you feel the need.


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## fireflywa (Aug 27, 2020)

Boner Champ said:


> Changing the spring takes less than 10 minutes. I'd just run it with the 45 and change later if you feel the need.


I must have been looking at some other set of instructions when it looked like changing the spring involved removing the whole assembly and essentially starting over. Looked again, and now I feel like an idiot.

What's the procedure for accessing the damper side of the uppers after the smashpot is installed? Is it as simple as removing the top cap and pulling the lowers down? I'll be installing an HC97 some time after the smashpot goes in and curious how involved that will be.


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## fireflywa (Aug 27, 2020)

Edit - solved the problem. Took the extra 8mm shim out of the rebound stack and now the HSR is damped enough to slow the shaft speed and eliminate the noise. Interesting though that the Push charger 2.1 rebound stack chart is incorrect.

So, something tells me this squeaking sound isn't normal. It's on the upstroke only and speed sensitive, no squeak when extending at a slower shaft speed. Any ideas? Fresh install. First time on coil so I'm sure some noise is to be expected but this just really doesn't seem right...

HSR too fast? When I installed the HC97, their chart said stock rebound stack has two 8mm gap shims...well mine only had one, so I added an 8x0.2. Maybe that sped up the HSR too much? The fork does feel like a freaking pogo stick, even with LSR completely closed.









smashpot







youtube.com





Yari 160mm 29" with HC97
176lbs naked weight
45 lb spring
Minimal spring preload, 9.5mm threads exposed
HBO changed to 1 shim and full open
Rockshox 0W30 oil
Damper settings from closed -
21 HSC
18 LSC
1 LSR (I probably set the rebound too fast during HC97 install)


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## andykrow (Apr 3, 2005)

Just installed my Smashpot. Bike is a 2019 Transition Patrol, 170mm 36 Grip 2 and 160mm rear with Bomber CR. I'm around 195 in full kit. 500# spring in the rear and I went with the 50# spring for the fork. I moved two shims to the back in the HBO circuit. I left the damper settings the same on the 36.

Today's test ride was a 3 mile, 1500 foot climb, followed by a bike park black descent. I left the 36 damper as it was, fully open HSC and LSC, 2 HSR, 9 LSR. HBO circuit wide open.

This loop was a pretty good test piece and honestly the Smashpot far exceeded my expectations. As soon as I got on the bike the sag felt right. I did not notice the extra pound. If I looked at the fork during the climb I could see more movement than before, but I couldn't feel it. If anything the bike climbed rough stuff more easily since the fork is now more compliant. Set a PR on one section 

Descending was magic, and honestly all areas of the fork are improved. Front tire is is insanely compliant and completely glued to the ground in corners. Mid-stroke is improved - less fork dive while braking, and the fork stays taller in steep tech which really increases confidence. One thing I did not expect was increased pop off lips, but it was really noticeable. Surprising since the fork is so plush now.

The travel indicator shows I still had about 15mm to spare. That seems about right for this test ride, I wouldn't want to bottom it on this stuff but I do want to get close. I think I got the spring rate correct.

The only issue I have is occasionally when I slam the front down in the parking lot, like after a wheelie and _really_ push down, there is some noise on the initial compression. I used an extra 2mm spacer when setting preload, and seemed like I got it to a good place with 9mm of thread exposed. Maybe I'll fiddle with this although there is no top out and no noise while on the trail.

HBO is awesome and I think I'm happy with the shim placement. I did not notice any noice when getting into the HBO "zone" like some others have reported. I might shift one more shim back so I can get more adjustment rather than running it wide open, but I'll probably wait until the next oil change.

In short, this might be the best bang for the buck improvement I've ever had. Now I need to tune the Bomber so it can keep up.


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## plow (Oct 20, 2018)

Which fork and damper combination RS Lyrik Select +/Ultimate or Fox 36 Rhytm/Performance is better for Smashpot conversion?


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

fireflywa said:


> Edit - solved the problem. Took the extra 8mm shim out of the rebound stack and now the HSR is damped enough to slow the shaft speed and eliminate the noise. Interesting though that the Push charger 2.1 rebound stack chart is incorrect.
> 
> So, something tells me this squeaking sound isn't normal. It's on the upstroke only and speed sensitive, no squeak when extending at a slower shaft speed. Any ideas? Fresh install. First time on coil so I'm sure some noise is to be expected but this just really doesn't seem right...
> 
> HSR too fast? When I installed the HC97, their chart said stock rebound stack has two 8mm gap shims...well mine only had one, so I added an 8x0.2. Maybe that sped up the HSR too much? The fork does feel like a freaking pogo stick, even with LSR completely closed.


There can be 1 or 2 of the 8 x 0.2 shims, depends on the year/model. But it doesn't matter because they are only clamp shims which don't affect the damping unless you change the OD.

Something else would have been going on, in my experience a squeaking noise and little damping is caused by a pinched check valve, allowing oil bypass. It must have rest on the rebuild


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

akantus178 said:


> Had the same issue... Solved by more bashing.
> 
> Tried to pry the plastic washer off, but didn't really succeed, so I just bashed with unreasonable force (albeit with smallish plastic hammer) until it gave up.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


FYI this is often caused by overtightening on installation, so make sure you have your torque wrench! But as long as you screw the footnut on about 3 full turns it should handle a pretty solid whack


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## electricdownhill805 (May 25, 2020)

I’m 248lbs installed the smashpot on my fox38 and so far kinda don’t like it it’s too soft in the initial stroke kinda miss my air damper it has the 55lb spring and I think I have too little sag. Haven’t measured but looks like 15 percent

I changed the compression high and low to 0 clicks like recommended here and the bottom out also to 0 and one click slow speed rebound and zero high speed gonna try it out again with these settings.

I want to add the avalanche cartridge too but haven’t heard back from them to confirm I’m buying everything needed to complement my smashpot and get the best performance


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

What travel fork and what bike? Also when you say zero clicks do you mean full slow/hard or fully open/soft?


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## electricdownhill805 (May 25, 2020)

JohnnyC7 said:


> What travel fork and what bike? Also when you say zero clicks do you mean full slow/hard or fully open/soft?


Maybe I just need to get used to the coil how linear it is was just in it and it felt better just in my driveway

fully open counter clock wise for compression and fully closed clock wise for the rebound one click open on slow speed rebound based on suggested amount for my weight.


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## Black89 (Jun 8, 2009)

Have the smash pot installed on a 2021 Zeb set to 180mm, used no top out spacers and 50mm of spring spacers. I did not install the spring clip at the bottom when I removed the air spring.

I cannot use the last 20mm of travel. It felt like I bottomed out hard off a 5ft drop riding a double black trail in the PNW. It also feels like there’s wiggle up and down when I lift the front tire off the ground with the bars. No noise preload feels good.

55lb spring I’m 200lbs with gear on a trek rail ebike. 

Used fox 20w gold oil, bottom out adjuster doesn’t seem to do much.
Any ideas or should I change shim stack and


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Might be a silly question, but is the BO screwed _in_ all the way? That could keep you from getting the last 20
Also seems like 55 is too much for your weight


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## Black89 (Jun 8, 2009)

nhodge said:


> Might be a silly question, but is the BO screwed _in_ all the way? That could keep you from getting the last 20
> Also seems like 55 is too much for your weight


i tried BOH both ways and felt the same. I'm 205 with gear, then for ebike it says add 15lbs, but take lbs off if it's a zeb.
I took the spring out and the bottom out isn't even kicking in with the travel I was achieving I can feel the adjuster working also. I ordered a 50lb spring hope I don't need a 45.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Good move & good luck


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Black89 said:


> i tried BOH both ways and felt the same. I'm 205 with gear, then for ebike it says add 15lbs, but take lbs off if it's a zeb.
> I took the spring out and the bottom out isn't even kicking in with the travel I was achieving I can feel the adjuster working also. I ordered a 50lb spring hope I don't need a 45.


If the BO adjuster doesn't seem to do anything, I suggest check the heatshrink that is fitted over the inner tube (the one with the ribs on it.

If it is not fitted correctly, it will slide down to the bottom and cover the oil ports, thus causing the ramp up to be extraordinarily high and feel very harsh in the last part of travel.


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## Staktup (Jan 21, 2016)

Given the open bath nature of the Smashpot and ACS conversions, can oil be added from the air side top cap instead of dropping the lowers? Why so much more oil w/ coil than air? Thanks


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Yes it can, in fact that is the proper way to do it. You unscrew the top cap then push the lowers up a little bit so you can get access to inside the stanchion then top it up etc... This is both easier and less likely to cause damage from repeatedly hammering the foot stud loose. To remove oil though it's better to do it from the foot stud, for example if you were doing a complete oil change you would little the oil come out from the bottom, do a strip and clean then refill from the top before screwing the top cap back down.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

Staktup said:


> Given the open bath nature of the Smashpot and ACS conversions, can oil be added from the air side top cap instead of dropping the lowers? Why so much more oil w/ coil than air? Thanks


Yes you can, and there is more oil for a couple of reasons -
It will lubricate better as more can stay on the bushings and maintain performance between service intervals 
An air spring has a much smaller chamber in the lowers so any more than 10cc and the progression is too high
In the case of the smashpot it needs enough oil to make the HBO function


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## Staktup (Jan 21, 2016)

Excellent, thanks guys. And Danzzz888, I too sold my Capra for a SB165 MX! Hit Windham bikepark last week and smashed everything in sight like a boss and loved my Smashpot converted 38.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Staktup said:


> Excellent, thanks guys. And Danzzz888, I too sold my Capra for a SB165 MX! Hit Windham bikepark last week and smashed everything in sight like a boss and loved my Smashpot converted 38.


Oh nice, how do you find the Sb165 in comparison to the Capra, tbh they are quite similar bikes so will be interesting to know how you feel they compare in different areas?

In regards to my Smashpot I have to say Dougal was right about one thing, my spring rate is too soft...for some bizzare reason it has took a while for the green SKF seals and whatever else in the fork to truly bed in. Stupidly I lost my rebound dial and haven't touched it for months, but today I decided to just fiddle with it with an allen key, and although I already had suspicions the rebound was much faster than the 11.6 on the rear the bike didn't feel too unbalanced or bad in any way...However what I have discovered is the rebound was set way too fast and I have being relying on it to compensate for lack of support from the spring. Now things have bedded in properly my sag though hard to measure accurately is somewhere between 25 and 30%.. this didn't seem to big a deal until I slowed the rebound down today to more typical levels, not slow but about 25% from fully open. The fork instantly was packing down and unable to recover quickly enough from hits, I have recently being swapping between different rise handlebars too usually preferring the 38mm rise and I think it is all down to lack of support on the front end. It's a weird one, I've managed to compromise my setup in such a way that it feels like it's working properly but isn't, instead of using the right spring rate I have just being using far too fast a rebound, but initially when the stiction levels were higher this wasn't so noticeable.
The spring weight I picked from the Vorsprung chart sort of overlapped between medium and soft and I thought that is what I was looking for. However I can say that I need at least a proper medium rate according to the chart, so in my case the 40lb as opposed to the 35lb. If I recall correctly I was running the 40lb on my previous bike with FOX 36 GRIP 1 and that fork felt amazing though if I recall noticeably firmer in the midstroke, that fork was only 170mm travel though and I thought going up to 180mm I could afford to run a little softer spring as the Vorsprung charts tend to show a decreasing sprung rate as travel goes up. I don't know if this is in part to the fact the Grip 1 is just a far superior and more supportive damper than the shitty Select damper or if 10mm is just not enough difference to warrant a change in spring rate....I'm assuming both.

I'm not the fastest or most skilled rider in the world byt I do tend to just plow right through stuff with reckless abandon, however even at moderate speeds I have to say that I don't recommend anything less than the medium option on the Vorsprung charts, and I mean a solid medium not a spring rate that overlaps between medium and soft. I'm just wondering now if 40lbs will be enough of an increase to get me to where I need to be. Regarding the damper it really is pretty crap, it's fine on smaller hits but on the real big hits is where you start to notice it's weakness and why you get what you pay for with the likes of the PUSH 11.6 etc, it just chokes up and loses it's composure, the 11.6 on the other hand feels better the faster you go.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Danzzz88 said:


> the 11.6 on the other hand feels better the faster you go.


A fork or shock that feels too firm at low speed and better when you go faster means you've got more compression damping than ideal.
Conversely good at low speed but gets unstable going faster means you haven't got enough compression damping.

That is assuming the damping curves you've got are the right shape. Some can feel awful at all times.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Dougal said:


> A fork or shock that feels too firm at low speed and better when you go faster means you've got more compression damping than ideal.
> Conversely good at low speed but gets unstable going faster means you haven't got enough compression damping.
> 
> That is assuming the damping curves you've got are the right shape. Some can feel awful at all times.


Well I don't know, Darren set me up with a 2 stage stack and the low speed compression is definitely much lighter than before so it's hard to say if there is still too much damping overall as the lowspeed is relatively lightly damped, but nevertheless the shock seems even better when I go faster, perhaps partly due to getting deeper into the travel of the Switch Infinity where the anti squat really starts to drop off. I know at lower speeds on the Yeti even with only a 54t hub I can sometimes feel a bit of pedal kickback so I wouldn't want to comment on what is the reason for the shock feeling better, it's not a stock 11.6 for a start. I do find the rear end is a little chattery on step downs though, like a succession of repeated drops, it feels very plush rolling up over obstacles but when dropping down consecutive hits it can feel a bit harsh. I have since upped the spring rate though so will give that a try in case it was packing down too much, especially given that the rebound feels so much slower than the fork...although I thought that was perhaps just due to the progressive leverage ratio of the frame and it's normal for the shock to rebound progressively slower towards full extension...but anyway first things first, I need a 40lb spring for the fork.


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## Staktup (Jan 21, 2016)

Danzzz88 said:


> Oh nice, how do you find the Sb165 in comparison to the Capra, tbh they are quite similar bikes so will be interesting to know how you feel they compare in different areas?


Well, the climbing manners is the best I've felt in the class of bikes with this much travel. Sure it bobs more than my the SB140 & SB130, but it is still way more supportive with good traction compared to the Capra. The Capra can climb, but it gets more tiring for sure. Weight-wise they are similar (both 38lbs/17.2 Kg), especially going from the Bartlett to the 38 w/ 45# SP coil.

I used an EXT 450# coil on the Capra most of the time, but with the SB I am using a Sprindex 450+ coil on the same EXT Storia Lok V3 shock that was tuned for the Capra. Out back, the 165 felt more poppy yet almost too firm on the landings from big jumps so I think I need to lower my HSC some more.

The 38 definitely feels stiffer than my 36 w/ 40# Smashpot trail fork, and did not deflect enough for me to notice. It's almost on par with the feel of the Bartlett or other DC fork, but not quite. I almost bottomed the fork out at the park but I prefer having a little reserve in the tank. I weigh 158lbs/71.6Kg bare and 170 lbs/77.1Kg) geared up. Overall, the Capra's suspension felt more plush within the range of settings I used with the Storia Lok and Bartlett while using full 29 and mullet set ups compared to the SB165. This is with the same rear shock swapped from bike to bike, and a Smashpotted Factory 38.

However, I did not find that it affected my riding negatively at all. In fact I hit more bigger jumps and drops with my 165, most likely due to familiarity with the terrain & progression, but the bike and converted fork didn't let me down. Also, the longer WB and reach is more stable and comfortable for me since the MED frame of the Capra is significantly shorter than the MED SB165, and I am used to riding the MED SB130 & 140 already. I think the mulleted SB165 felt quicker in the berms than the mulleted Capra. The Capra 29 felt more stable in the air compared to its mulleted state. The Yeti slots right in the middle on this one.

Once I get the shock tuned for the SB165 this winter, I think I can focus more properly on how the fork feels and tinker some more but I have no regrets on the bike switch and the SP conversion.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Yes it isn't the absolute plushest bike out there but funnily enough I upped my rear coil spring rate yesterday too and I didn't lose much in bump ability, it may feel a bit firmer over the bump but it gets less hung up and wallowy and clears it more quickly...but what I found with the increased spring rate apart from it takes less energy away when pedalling is just how much more fun a poppy bike is I feel where my spring rate was before i t was some weird middle ground where the bike is neither poppy but not neccessarily overly plush either...now I have upped spring rate and it has a bit of zing in it's step along with the reduced damping from my new 11.6 tune I am quite liking it, it has a bit of spring in it's step whilst still feeling good on small bumps and less energy sapping.


I guess I don't know what I want, I originally built the bike intending for it to be a mini dh plow but that is not the bike it really is, it is still more than capable of aggressive dh riding but it needs to be sprung enough to bring out the best atrributes and playful nature of the bike, it likes to ride light footed like most Yeti's, underspringing it makes it a bit softer on initial impact or drops but makes it wallow too deep and it gets hung up too easily slowing you down...it really is the bike Yeti says it is, a rippers bike and works best set up that way. Trying to change it by running soft springs, big tyres, O chains, Cushcore and all that business I think will just ruin the bike. It's still supple enough, and now it is poppy it's actually quite a fun bike and very useable trail bike aswell as still having the big hit reserves for the bikepark. I guess that is what it is, a bike to have fun on, it's not an Enduro machine, it can take big hits as well as anything and is super stable down steep stuff but it more wants to just play with trail rather than just steam roller over it. It becomes more of a plow the faster you go but needs a hell of a lot of speed.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

So the Smashpot on my bike has gone from the best thing since sliced bread to the most frustrating part of my bike in one morning....

Feeling my current 35lb was a bit soft I spent £100 on a new 40lbs spring, oils etc yesterday to do a coil swap and fresh oils from WPL in the lowers and I wish I never started.

Aside from the usual mess and oil getting everywhere after spending 30 mins looking for the right tools the fork was working fine before with none of the rubbing or top out issues reported on here, this was with the old spring perch too.. but now I go to change to 40lbs I'm plagued with every problem under the sun..

The first indicatipn was that neither the new or old spring perches snuggly clipped into the end of tge new spring as they did with the 35lb. Regardless I carreied on with the reassembly, topped up with oil and then discovered with the new wider perch it's almost impossible to screw down the top cap without a **** ton of force pressing down, assuming as it's wider and is pushing against the extra pvc lining when fitted in the ZEB. I thought forget it, it fidn't have top out with the old spring so put the olf perch back on, tightened everything then cycled the fork and took it for a brief spin..

What a bloody nightmare, ridiculous amounts of rubbing between the coil and pvc liner, the stroke is all notchy fue to frictipn and noisey then I get the added bonus on top of that ridiculous top out clunk.

I really regret doing the swap, looking at the 40lb spring it's a fair bit thicker than the 35lb, I feel like this along with crappy tolerances means this is almost unfixable without reverting back to the 35lb spring...an absolute bloody messy and expensive nigjtmare this Smashpot is, luck of the draw if you get a successful assembly or not.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Danzzz88 said:


> So the Smashpot on my bike has gone from the best thing since sliced bread to the most frustrating part of my bike in one morning....
> 
> Feeling my current 35lb was a bit soft I spent £100 on a new 40lbs spring, oils etc yesterday to do a coil swap and fresh oils from WPL in the lowers and I wish I never started.
> 
> ...


Gotta agree it is one of the more finicky mods to get running, but once you get there it is very much worth the effort.

Not familiar with the pvc sleeve on the 38 forks, but definately reach out to Vorsprung Steve he will surely help you find a solution.

Maybe he can just send you the next size up perch if there was a tolerance issue with the new spring


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Trouble isn't really the perch, that just makes it a nightnare to tighten the top cap...the main issue is all this rubbing and friction of the coil inside the fork. I followed the exact same process I did with the previous spring, heat shrunk wrapped it in the same place, cut off excess hanging over inside the spring, greased everything, but now I'm gettins tons of rubbing and noise inside most likely because the spring is thicker. I'm wondering whether to just remove the heat shrink and just use the PVC sleeve that is already lining the stanchions to protect them.


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## Boner Champ (Mar 31, 2015)

Danzzz88 said:


> Trouble isn't really the perch, that just makes it a nightnare to tighten the top cap...the main issue is all this rubbing and friction of the coil inside the fork. I followed the exact same process I did with the previous spring, heat shrunk wrapped it in the same place, cut off excess hanging over inside the spring, greased everything, but now I'm gettins tons of rubbing and noise inside most likely because the spring is thicker. I'm wondering whether to just remove the heat shrink and just use the PVC sleeve that is already lining the stanchions to protect them.


You should be going to Vorsprung for help first. They've been incredibly helpful with any of the previous issues I've had, as well as just random follow-up questions.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

I know, Steve is very helpful. I'm just impatient, it's such a messy headache changing oils and service these things that I like to get it sorted quickly and put back together, I don't like leaving oily parts all over the place attracting dirt and grit. I've since cut off tge heat shrink thinking the PVC liner will be enough but that hasn't really fixed anything, it's still making this weird coil rubbing noise and rumbling/binding feel when cycling the suspension. I'm probably going to just send it in for a service and get my bushes burnished while I'm at it, can't be fussed with the hassle, it's messy and expensive wasting oils having to constantly assemble and disassemble it. I might give it one last complete strip and rebuild it dry and if it doesn't work I'm washing my hands of it. Might send it in to get serviced then when I get it back sell it and buy a FOX 38 or Dorado.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

You can change a smashpot coil without removing any oil.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

I know, the problem appears to be the pvc liner in the ZEB. The new coil appears to be catching against it even though the pvc sleeve is flush against the inner stanchion walls. The only way I could get things tightened down was to use the old spring perch but there is a fair amount of wiggle with that one possibly causing the binding. The trouble is the new updated perches are wider and appear to rather than sit within the pvc sleeve, sit on top of the edge of the sleeve instead. I installed the pvc sleeve as per the instructions when I first installed the Smashpot with no issues, however now it appears the sleeve is possibly too tall or high up in the stanchion, so when I try to use the new perch to mitigate the rattling due to the wider design of the perch it is hitting the pvc on install before I can get close enough with the top cap to engage the threads and start screwing it down hoping it will push the PVC deeper. I've tried pulling down on the lowers as hard as possible to try and get the perch to push the pvc down and engage the threads on the top cap but to no avail. The only possible way to fix it is dismantle the whole fork, remove the pvc and cut a few mm off, then I may be able to screw on the top cap. The trouble is for all that effort and mess, once reassembled I may still have the binding issue. I can't tell if it's just an issue with the sleeve or a combination of that and / or tolerance issue with the spring. 

Unfortunately unless someone has installed one of these in a ZEB or 38 and tried to use the new updated spring perches most won't have come across this problem yet.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Danzzz88 said:


> Trouble isn't really the perch, that just makes it a nightnare to tighten the top cap...the main issue is all this rubbing and friction of the coil inside the fork. I followed the exact same process I did with the previous spring, heat shrunk wrapped it in the same place, cut off excess hanging over inside the spring, greased everything, but now I'm gettins tons of rubbing and noise inside most likely because the spring is thicker. I'm wondering whether to just remove the heat shrink and just use the PVC sleeve that is already lining the stanchions to protect them.


I found the heat shrink on the spring (55lb) was grabbing the PVC sleeve in my 38, so much so it made the fork harsh. I've removed the heat shrink entirely from the spring and cycling the fork in the workshop it feels much smoother now. I haven't had a chance to ride it post shrink removal as the damper is out but I'm hoping it has solved the issue.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

I removed the heat shrink but the problem was still there. This is using the older perch mind that has a significant amount of play. The new perch is a complete no go, it is wider so sits on top if the edge of the pvc sleeve. Trouble is the sleeve seems too long / high up in the stanchion so when you go to install the top cap the perch bottoms out on the pvc sleeve before the top cap threads get close enough to engage the crown.
I dismantled the fork and checked the pvc, everything is where it should be, flat against the stanchion walls, no kinks and seated as close to the bottom of the stanchion as possible, right up snug against the alloy ring spacer. So there is no room for the pvc to be pushed out the way and use the new spring perch, there must be a tolerance issue somewhere, either the pvc is too long and needs cutting shorter but then even if I fit the new perch there is no guarantee that the rubbing will be gone.
What is annoying is spending all the extra money for a new spring hoping to improve my ride, thinking it would be a relatively simple though messy replacement. Instead I spend the extra money and turn a fork that worked perfectly into one that doesn't work at all.. I should have just left it alone. I've messaged Steve though so I'm sure he will be able to advise me on what the issue is and hopefully tell me the best way to resolve it without needing any new parts or returning springs etc.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

So as usual, Steve got back to me promptly with some helpful advice, can't knock the guy, he's has better response time and customer service alone than most large corporations. Apparently since the perch update there has also been another manual update. To use the new perch in the ZEB the alloy retaining ring and spring clip is no longer used at the bottom of the stanchion. This allows the pvc liner to be pushed further down the stanchion and enabling use of the new perch. I re-assembled as advised and the fork worked great, no rubbing or noise, no top out clunk, even with the shrink wrap removed from the spring the fork worked better than before, less play at the top of travel, more supportive with the higher rate spring but super plush as ever without sinking too deep into the travel causing a delayed spike and trouble with rollover like the lighter spring had minor issues with. So in general a good improvement and props to Steve getting back to me so fast, saved me £100 sending it in for a service.

Only one issue that I think others may be familiar with on here. After 10 mins riding and hitting a few large square edges to test out the bike, suddenly there has appeared a clicking noise on compression, every time I hit a medium sized bump there is a click. I can't tell if it's the Smashpot or damper as I may have made the noobie mistake of pushing the damper rod in an purging it of oil too much on reassembly. However as I say this wasn't there for the first 10 mins riding. Only after numerous large hits did it develop this click on compression. Is it something I have not tightened enough like the bottom out assembly and found it's way loose or is it something else. I'm glad it now works but really can't be fussed stripping the fork again and buying more oil. 
Oh and another thing, I switched to WPL shock boost, seems like a great oil, even though thick viscocity than the Motul I had in previously, it seems to lubricate much better, you can tell just feeling it between your fingers how good lubricity it has...only slight potential issue I have found either because of the heavier weight or lack of foaming agents it certainly holds on to air bubbles considerably longer than the Motul, but doubt that should be an issue in the lower legs of a coil fork. Other than that, seems like a fantastic oil and the fork is like butter.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Lesson learned, call Steve first to avoid extremely frustrating vibes


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Danzzz88 said:


> So as usual, Steve got back to me promptly with some helpful advice, can't knock the guy, he's has better response time and customer service alone than most large corporations. Apparently since the perch update there has also been another manual update. To use the new perch in the ZEB the alloy retaining ring and spring clip is no longer used at the bottom of the stanchion. This allows the pvc liner to be pushed further down the stanchion and enabling use of the new perch. I re-assembled as advised and the fork worked great, no rubbing or noise, no top out clunk, even with the shrink wrap removed from the spring the fork worked better than before, less play at the top of travel, more supportive with the higher rate spring but super plush as ever without sinking too deep into the travel causing a delayed spike and trouble with rollover like the lighter spring had minor issues with. So in general a good improvement and props to Steve getting back to me so fast, saved me £100 sending it in for a service.
> 
> Only one issue that I think others may be familiar with on here. After 10 mins riding and hitting a few large square edges to test out the bike, suddenly there has appeared a clicking noise on compression, every time I hit a medium sized bump there is a click. I can't tell if it's the Smashpot or damper as I may have made the noobie mistake of pushing the damper rod in an purging it of oil too much on reassembly. However as I say this wasn't there for the first 10 mins riding. Only after numerous large hits did it develop this click on compression. Is it something I have not tightened enough like the bottom out assembly and found it's way loose or is it something else. I'm glad it now works but really can't be fussed stripping the fork again and buying more oil.
> Oh and another thing, I switched to WPL shock boost, seems like a great oil, even though thick viscocity than the Motul I had in previously, it seems to lubricate much better, you can tell just feeling it between your fingers how good lubricity it has...only slight potential issue I have found either because of the heavier weight or lack of foaming agents it certainly holds on to air bubbles considerably longer than the Motul, but doubt that should be an issue in the lower legs of a coil fork. Other than that, seems like a fantastic oil and the fork is like butter.


Yeah I get that clicking noise sometimes when quickly compressing the fork from standstill. Not noticeable when riding. Goes away for a while then comes back whenever it wants.

I put it down to the spring flexing sideways and the inner diameter touching the internal shaft of the assembly, or it is a tiny bit of play in the smashpot inner rod which seems normal.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

Was curious to try a heavier fluid after running Motorex 10wt with 3 shims, so I threw in some ill-advised Fox gold 20wt. This made the last 30 mm of travel inaccessible. Furthermore, I couldn’t detect any difference across the range of clicks, they all left me with a 130mm fork.
Looking at the viscosities, the motorex is around 50 cst at 40 C, and the Fox is nearly double that (figures on Motorex and WPL websites).


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

You could reduce the number of shims or swap back to a lower weight fluid. I have to say I have been quite impressed with the 20wt WPL fluid in my Smashpot, it's certainly very slick stuff...but I think I reduced the bottom out shims more than you did if I remember correctly.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

I considered taking out another shim. I’ve removed 2. I removed the Fox gold after the first ride, back to 10wt. I’m curious to try the WPL stuff, but feel obligated to use up what I have on hand. Looking at WPL numbers, it’s about 20% more viscous than the Motorex I now use at 40C. So, I might drop it down another shim if I ever make the swap.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

I've been using the Motorex 10wt a lot in smashpots lately. It has excellent lubricity relative to its viscosity so should work really well for most applications


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## Makten (Feb 25, 2014)

half_man_half_scab said:


> Was curious to try a heavier fluid after running Motorex 10wt with 3 shims, so I threw in some ill-advised Fox gold 20wt. This made the last 30 mm of travel inaccessible. Furthermore, I couldn't detect any difference across the range of clicks, they all left me with a 130mm fork.
> Looking at the viscosities, the motorex is around 50 cst at 40 C, and the Fox is nearly double that (figures on Motorex and WPL websites).


Fox Gold is like syrup and it gives considerable damping from the HBO even with all the shims removed (edit: or not removed, but the spacer/clamp moved closest to the sealing surface so that the holes are always open). You can try the effect of the HBO by cycling the Smashpot shaft when the whole assembly is still in the fork, but without the spring.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

Has anyone considered changing up the rebound damping after converting to coil? Generally, I would expect the need for HSR to be greater in air springs, given their progressive nature. Operating under this premise, If you apply a damper tuned for air to a coil system I would expect too much damping at the end of the stroke, leading to packing on big hits. Has anyone, eg, altered the rebound shim stack after converting to Smashpot?


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

An air spring is maybe only firmer in the last 1/3 of the stroke, or less. Through the middle of the stroke it’s softer though, and the total work done can vary either way. Generally if you didn’t need a change in rebound with air then you don’t with coil either. And if you do it’s more likely to be a firmer tune


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

half_man_half_scab said:


> Has anyone considered changing up the rebound damping after converting to coil? Generally, I would expect the need for HSR to be greater in air springs, given their progressive nature. Operating under this premise, If you apply a damper tuned for air to a coil system I would expect too much damping at the end of the stroke, leading to packing on big hits. Has anyone, eg, altered the rebound shim stack after converting to Smashpot?


I didn't have to change my damper settings at all.

ALthough air spring can be more progressive at the end stroke, with the Smashpot HBC setting you can match that progressiveness if you want. Otherwise the lower spring rate off the top, and higher mid stroke spring rate tends to provide an overall average rate which is similar to the average of an equivalent air spring.


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

Received and installed my Smashpot kit this past week. Went together very easily. Got it out on the trails today. Amazing results! Such great small bump compliance. So much traction. And it's quiet. I ordered with a 35lb spring and I think it suits my 143lb weight perfectly.


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

How's that monster motorcycle handle your monster 143 lbs?


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

nhodge said:


> How's that monster motorcycle handle your monster 143 lbs?


Quite well actually. Most heavier riders have to get the suspension resprung because Ducati sets them up from the factory for riders on the smaller/lighter side. I was easily able to setup sag and damping adjustments with the factory springs and dampers.

The engine on the other hand, probably doesn’t even realize I’m there when I twist the throttle. It’s a bit of a wheelie monster 😂


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## ARider (Feb 28, 2005)

Swapped a Smashpot from a Lyrik to a ZEB and bumped the travel from 170 to 180mm.

*Pro tip, install it on the stock damper side so if you ever want to swap an air spring back in the fork the dimple side remains pristine. Although I don't think it really matters with a 38mm install as the PVC sleeve seems like it will protect the inside of the stanchion.









I took 2 shims out of the HBO assembly (moved them behind the clamp) as I never got really close to bottom before with 45# spring. Now I can run the HBO 2-3 clicks from fully closed and it appears more effective (and also a little more out to the way from rock strikes). Using 0W-16 synthetic motor oil for both legs, works well and is just $6/quart.

Quite tall now, showing over 190mm in the stand. 
Interesting, because in the Lyrik it barely showed 170mm when running 170mm of travel.









Feels good in the yard, looking forward to ripping some trails!


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

ARider said:


> Swapped a Smashpot from a Lyrik to a ZEB and bumped the travel from 170 to 180mm.
> 
> *Pro tip, install it on the stock damper side so if you ever want to swap an air spring back in the fork the dimple side remains pristine. Although I don't think it really matters with a 38mm install as the PVC sleeve seems like it will protect the inside of the stanchion.
> View attachment 1951000
> ...


That’s a good idea putting the spring on the damper side if wanting to go back to an airspring later.
Are you sure you got the spacers right on the new install? You’re not missing a topout spacer? Seems odd it would measure just over 190mm when looking for 180. My Lyrik came out at exactly 160mm like it was supposed to after assembly.


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

I should have read thru this thread more carefully before install. So far everything works great except for the HBO. Seems like others, the last 30mm of travel is inaccessible for me. My 160 fork is basically a 130 at the moment. Last night I shuffled three shims to below the clamp shims and it’s still the same. I also checked the shrink wrap and it’s still in place and not covering the holes. Zero adjustability using the knob. I have it wide open. I used Maxima 20wt oil and it’s probably too thick, like Fox Gold. I ordered some Motorex 10wt and will give that a try when it shows up.


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## ARider (Feb 28, 2005)

BarrelAged said:


> That’s a good idea putting the spring on the damper side if wanting to go back to an airspring later.
> Are you sure you got the spacers right on the new install? You’re not missing a topout spacer? Seems odd it would measure just over 190mm when looking for 180. My Lyrik came out at exactly 160mm like it was supposed to after assembly.


Yeah, spacers are correct. Set to 180mm so no top out spacers installed per manual.

It's weird, I moved it from a Lyric which showed right at 170mm of stanchion when set to 170mm of travel.

The ZEB kit comes with a 20mm extension you thread under the top cap. I emailed Steve at Vorsprung, we'll see what he says.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

I understand the purpose of the PVC sleeve, but it makes sliding the spring in a pain in the ass. I like the idea of swapping the damper and air side and leaving out the sleeve, as it would make it a lot easier to drop the Vorsprung assembly in and lighten the system as well. I guess my one concern is that it might be noisier, as I imagine the sleeve deadens any sound of the coil jumping around inside the stanchion.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

half_man_half_scab said:


> I understand the purpose of the PVC sleeve, but it makes sliding the spring in a pain in the ass. I like the idea of swapping the damper and air side and leaving out the sleeve, as it would make it a lot easier to drop the Vorsprung assembly in and lighten the system as well. I guess my one concern is that it might be noisier, as I imagine the sleeve deadens any sound of the coil jumping around inside the stanchion.


Can confirm that if you run the smashpot without that sleeve it is very noisy.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

That's too bad. I guess it's not like I'm pulling the assembly often.


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## ARider (Feb 28, 2005)

Yeah, I had to tap the assembly in with a rubber mallet. It's tight! 
I think it has to be that way to prevent the sleeve from sliding out of the stanchion and into the lower leg and causing issues.

But it is quiet. Much more so than in a Lyrik with just the small section of heat shrink.


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## electricdownhill805 (May 25, 2020)

BarrelAged said:


> I should have read thru this thread more carefully before install. So far everything works great except for the HBO. Seems like others, the last 30mm of travel is inaccessible for me. My 160 fork is basically a 130 at the moment. Last night I shuffled three shims to below the clamp shims and it’s still the same. I also checked the shrink wrap and it’s still in place and not covering the holes. Zero adjustability using the knob. I have it wide open. I used Maxima 20wt oil and it’s probably too thick, like Fox Gold. I ordered some Motorex 10wt and will give that a try when it shows up.


did you ever get this sorted I switched from 55 to 45lbs spring and it feels a little better just riding in my driveway but gets very harsh about half way through the travel

I haven’t got a chance to ride on the trails with the new 45lbs spring I weigh 250lbs and the 55lbs spring got too stiff after one inch of travel used to be impossible to use the last 25 percent of travel

the 45lbs spring feels much better and seems to match my dhx2 coil spring in back now with the coil that matches my weight on the dhx2


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

electricdownhill805 said:


> did you ever get this sorted I switched from 55 to 45lbs spring and it feels a little better just riding in my driveway but gets very harsh about half way through the travel
> 
> I haven’t got a chance to ride on the trails with the new 45lbs spring I way 250lbs and the 55lbs spring got too stiff after one day inch of travel used.


Not yet. Waiting on the fluid to show up. Hopefully by this weekend. All I need to do is drop the lowers, drain the old fluid and reinstall and refill.


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## mmmmtnbkr1 (Jul 21, 2013)

Hydraulic bottom out (HBO) is a neat idea is because in a ported / needle valve system the energy required to compress the damper scales in the same way vs. speed as does the energy imparted by the rider. In other words, if impact speed doubles, rider energy into the damper quadruples, and so does the energy required to compress the damper. 

However, a smashpot uses a shimmed HBO whose energy scales less quickly with impact speed. Now I'm wondering why it's shimmed, when the simpler ported option has this nice property. Is it because there are also nonlinear responses from the damper side of the fork that are adding to the hbo, and together they make a nice response? Is it because we want the damping not to scale perfectly with impact energy, because intuitively we want bigger hits to use more travel?


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

So the place I ordered Motorex 10wt from dragged their feet on shipping long enough that I won’t have it by the weekend. I picked up some Redline 10wt fork oil from a local motorcycle shop. Any reason I shouldn’t give it a try?


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

BarrelAged said:


> So the place I ordered Motorex 10wt from dragged their feet on shipping long enough that I won’t have it by the weekend. I picked up some Redline 10wt fork oil from a local motorcycle shop. Any reason I shouldn’t give it a try?


Nope


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

I’ve been messing around with the number of HBO shims and oil weights. In one instance I cracked the footnut to replace the oil with a lighter variety. I just pulled the lowers down a bit, and a smaller volume of oil than expected came out. I walked Away to let it drain for 10 minutes or so. Came back and refilled with the lighter oil. On the trail I noticed it was harder to get full travel than before. So after a while, I pulled the whole assembly out to inspect, everything seemed fine, but this time it seemed like more oil than expected came out. Refilled it to 110ml spec for the Zeb, and now it’s getting full travel again. Is it possible that oil could get trapped somewhere if you don’t pull the assembly out of the fork, or am I losing my mind?


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

Tonight I replaced the Maxima 20wt fluid with the Redline 10wt I picked up this afternoon. I'm getting pretty good at R&Ring the lowers, hahah. I pull them completely off even for just a fluid change. I find that if I release both the damper side bolt and the Smashpot footstud and pump the lowers up and down the fluid comes out in spurts. Then I completely drop the lowers to make sure no fluid is left other than the stuff clinging to the inner walls and also so that I can check the shrinkwrap. I also drain the fluid into a plastic beaker for reuse if need be and to measure what comes out. Every time I get the full 110ml out. 

Now that I have the Redline 10wt fluid in, I can access another 15mm of travel just bouncing the bike hard in the garage compared to the Maxima 20wt using the same bounce test. I am also now getting actual use of the HBO adjuster. Full open I'm seeing 145mm of travel used. Full closed I'm seeing 130mm of travel (on a 160 fork). So I know it's working. I'm gonna try this out on the chunkiest local trails I have to see how I like it. If I need more I'll rearrange the shim stack to drop one more shim or go to a Redline 5wt oil.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

If you hang the bike for storage I wonder if oil slowly creeps up above the spring perch through the small notch in the PVC (edit: liner) and pools there. Where the PVC (edit: liner) is compressed between the perch and the stanchion this area may serve as an oil flow governor when the bike is turned right side up. So, even int he case where you pull the lowers, you might not get all the oil out in a reasonable amount of time, and you risk accidentally overfilling the spring side.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

This is the spot I'm talking about


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## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

half_man_half_scab said:


> If you hang the bike for storage I wonder if oil slowly creeps up above the spring perch through the small notch in the PVC and pools there. Where the PVC is compressed between the perch and the stanchion this area may serve as an oil flow governor when the bike is turned right side up. So, even int he case where you pull the lowers, you might not get all the oil out in a reasonable amount of time, and you risk accidentally overfilling the spring side.


I don't see how that could happen unless I'm missing something. That perch is nowhere near close to being a seal against the stanchion wall. I fill with oil from the top in that very spot.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

jasonp22 said:


> I don't see how that could happen unless I'm missing something. That perch is nowhere near close to being a seal against the stanchion wall. I fill with oil from the top in that very spot.


Do you run the liner? The perch definitely pinches the liner against the stanchion, and it's very tight.


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

Get some cheap plastic beakers with measurement markers and see how much fluid comes out the next time you pull the lowers. It’s also a great way to catch the oil for reuse if you’re only going to make changes to the shim stack


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## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

half_man_half_scab said:


> Do you run the liner? The perch definitely pinches the liner against the stanchion, and it's very tight.


Yes, I run the liner. Interesting, I'll have to check this out next time I change the oil which is soon.


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

So after roughly 80 miles of riding, I decided to pull out the 35lb spring in favor of a 30lb one. For my weight Vorsprung calls out for a 35-40lb spring depending on how you want the fork to feel and how aggressive you ride. Maybe due to the HTA on my bike being just under 64 degrees I require a lighter spring. I dunno, but I wanted to try as the 35lb felt good but I thought it could be better. I also wanted to change the Redline 10wt fluid for Redline 5wt fluid. I've done a couple of fluid changes and shim stack adjustments trying to dial in the HBO, but decided to just pull out the whole assembly to see how it looks. 

What I found (pictured below) was the the shrink wrap around the coil had wound its way down the spring quite a ways. At this point it was really easy to spin up and down the spring (it was really tight when I first installed it). And that the shrink wrap around the shaft assembly had swelled or something because it was beginning to work it's way down to the holes (but hadn't covered them yet). It hadn't slid down the shaft so that wasn't the problem. Perhaps I installed it too close on initial assembly.

Anyway, I pulled everything apart, cleaned it all up, installed new shrink wrap around the assembly but kept it farther away from the holes this time in case of swelling. I also installed the shrink wrap that came with the new 30lb spring like I had before (100mm from the top). I slid the assembly into the fork and filled it up with Redline 5wt fluid. I kept the shim stack at two active shims as I had adjusted it before. 

Huge improvement with both the lighter spring and the lighter weight fluid. Even better small bump compliance, better traction, and leaves just enough travel headroom for OHSHIT moments. I also have a good amount of HBO adjustability now. I guess I'll just have to keep an eye on both shrink wraps, but I'm otherwise super happy with this coil conversion.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

BarrelAged said:


> So after roughly 80 miles of riding, I decided to pull out the 35lb spring in favor of a 30lb one. For my weight Vorsprung calls out for a 35-40lb spring depending on how you want the fork to feel and how aggressive you ride. Maybe due to the HTA on my bike being just under 64 degrees I require a lighter spring. I dunno, but I wanted to try as the 35lb felt good but I thought it could be better. I also wanted to change the Redline 10wt fluid for Redline 5wt fluid. I've done a couple of fluid changes and shim stack adjustments trying to dial in the HBO, but decided to just pull out the whole assembly to see how it looks.
> 
> What I found (pictured below) was the the shrink wrap around the coil had wound its way down the spring quite a ways. At this point it was really easy to spin up and down the spring (it was really tight when I first installed it). And that the shrink wrap around the shaft assembly had swelled or something because it was beginning to work it's way down to the holes (but hadn't covered them yet). It hadn't slid down the shaft so that wasn't the problem. Perhaps I installed it too close on initial assembly.
> 
> ...


When I told volsprung my shrink tubing moved, they said I need to really get it tight on the coil. Mine made a slight clunk going over a few larger rocks. My shrink tubing had migrated 60mm down. I moved it back to its proper position and blasted it more with the heat gun. I did it until there was no more shrinkage. I would have made George Castanza proud.


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## electricdownhill805 (May 25, 2020)

I guess I prefer softer springs I’m 238lbs and put a 45lbs spring down from a 55lbs spring suggested for my weight on the vorsprung chart it feels much better driving on my driveway haven’t had a chance to try it on a trail yet. Adding the suggested base hsc and lsc compression 5 left and 10 left gives good mid stroke support. With the 55lbs spring I could not get more than about 60-70 percent travel and it ramped up way to hard and fast felt harsh riding down steep rocky terrain especially jumps


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## ARider (Feb 28, 2005)

Every time I have removed the spring unit, the shrink wrap was all the way at the bottom. I just took it off for the ZEB install as I feels it's a bit redundant with the plastic liner.

Steve and Co suggest that 38mm users (ZEB and Fox) should drop down 5 lbs on the spring chart recommendation. I have a 45# that worked well in Lyrik, but feels a bit too stiff in the ZEB. I'm going to a 40#. Something about the increased air volume in the fork adds to the "base" spring rate.

In other news, the ZEB coil is awesome! The stiffer chassis is a huge upgrade from the Lyrik, this is hands down the most responsive and solid feeling fork I have ever had short of a dual crown. It's one of those "you don't know until you try things", but bushing bind and deflection is a big deal for these long travel single crowns.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

I’ve been exploring rebound shim variations for my Zeb. I can’t recall where, but saw that Diaz suspension offered a lighter spring than stock for Charger mid valves, as the stock spring adds harshness in some way. Figured for 20 bucks it was worth a shot. The also send you some shims to replace the rebound stack. More info here. I figured I’d try their shim stack too out of curiosity. The heaviest one was far too much HSR for my 45 inch pounds spring. But the mid tune seems pretty good to me. Going to try the light one next, bracket a bit more.


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

ARider said:


> Every time I have removed the spring unit, the shrink wrap was all the way at the bottom. I just took it off for the ZEB install as I feels it's a bit redundant with the plastic liner.


With the liner being used on the Zeb and Fox38 I would definitely delete the shrink wrap. If I find later that the shrink wrap has wound its way down the coil again I may just pull it completely off and see what it sounds like without it. Even without the liner on my Lyrik.


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## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

I've got a buddy with a smashpot and a 160mm fox 36. he's quite the clyde @ 6'6" 250lbs and he can't for the life of him, get full travel out of the thing. It seems to get about 120-130mm max. I'm assuming that it's related to teh port holes being covered by the heat shrink? Is that the most obvious cause for not being able to use full travel? I know I saw it some where in this thread, but I can't find it at this point and I want to get his bike dialed in quickly if I can. thanks in advance.


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## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

I know one case with Zeb fork in which the bushings were so tight, that it made the use of full travel nearly impossible. Of course, the fork was also everything but supple. That's one possibility besides the one proposed.


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

minimusprime said:


> I've got a buddy with a smashpot and a 160mm fox 36. he's quite the clyde @ 6'6" 250lbs and he can't for the life of him, get full travel out of the thing. It seems to get about 120-130mm max. I'm assuming that it's related to teh port holes being covered by the heat shrink? Is that the most obvious cause for not being able to use full travel? I know I saw it some where in this thread, but I can't find it at this point and I want to get his bike dialed in quickly if I can. thanks in advance.


It could be any number of things, but holes covered by shrink wrap could be a possibility. I would pull the lowers and check as you can see that part of the assembly with them removed. If not, reassemble and try lighter fork fluid to see if that helps. If that doesn’t work then maybe the spring rate is too stiff.


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## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

BarrelAged said:


> It could be any number of things, but holes covered by shrink wrap could be a possibility. I would pull the lowers and check as you can see that part of the assembly with them removed. If not, reassemble and try lighter fork fluid to see if that helps. If that doesn’t work then maybe the spring rate is too stiff.


I'm certain that it's not spring rate. He is a solid 2 rates under the suggested rate for his weight at this point, so he should be bottoming it like crazy. I am nearly 100% certain that it's the HBO feature. We've pulled uppers/lowers and validated that there isn't binding or bushing issues. Damper has been checked and validated to not be an issue as well, so we're basically left with coil bind or hbo issues. This fork was in service as a standard air fork for about 12 months prior to this conversion, zero issues with the function of the fork pre-conversion installation.


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

minimusprime said:


> I'm certain that it's not spring rate. He is a solid 2 rates under the suggested rate for his weight at this point, so he should be bottoming it like crazy. I am nearly 100% certain that it's the HBO feature. We've pulled uppers/lowers and validated that there isn't binding or bushing issues. Damper has been checked and validated to not be an issue as well, so we're basically left with coil bind or hbo issues. This fork was in service as a standard air fork for about 12 months prior to this conversion, zero issues with the function of the fork pre-conversion installation.


That’s why I mentioned spring rate last. Looks like it’s time to pull the lowers and check the shrink wrap. What fluid is being used?
I’m a lightweight at 143lbs, and am now using the lightest 30lb spring, only two active shims on the HBO and 5wt fluid. But it’s finally dialed perfectly for me after several rides and changes from the initial setup suggestions


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## ARider (Feb 28, 2005)

Dropped the lighter coil (40#) in the ZEB and it is spot on perfect! And the HBO is functional and working like it should.

I followed my son off a blind rock->rock drop today going way to slow and used every bit of travel, but didn't feel any contact or jolt at all. Didn't even feel like it bottomed out, it was perfect!









The smashpot is installed in a ZEB @ 180mm configuration it is actually showing and getting over 186mm of travel. I don't mind, the bike is a full beast and can handle it. But for those concerned about axle to crown, maybe plan on setting it 10mm under what you want to get.









It's funny, because I had this kit on a Lyrik prior and it was set to 170mm. It only showed and got about 165mm of travel in that fork. 

Bonus tip for users with 38mm forks and the PVC sleeve; if you ever want to pull the smashpot fully out of the fork the best way is to leave it on the bike with the wheel attached, fully unthread the top cap, tie an old sock over the top cap/under the crown (to keep it from fully blasting out and spraying oil everywhere), and then push (or jump) on the bars until it pops free from the PVC sleeve. That thing is in there!


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

Only skimmed through some of the 1000+ posts here. I've seen mention of the Fox gold oil being too heavy. I'm installing a Smashpot on my Fox 38 on an E-bike. At 210lbs should I be reinstalling with a lighter weight oil?


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## ARider (Feb 28, 2005)

BIke N Gear said:


> Only skimmed through some of the 1000+ posts here. I've seen mention of the Fox gold oil being too heavy. I'm installing a Smashpot on my Fox 38 on an E-bike. At 210lbs should I be reinstalling with a lighter weight oil?


Given your weight and the extra heft of an e-bike I 'd try it with Fox gold first. 
What weight spring did you go with?

The main thing I found with lighter oil was the HBO would work as intended and still allow full travel. I currently have 0W-16 synthetic motor oil and it is spot on for my weight and setup.


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

ARider said:


> Given your weight and the extra heft of an e-bike I 'd try it with Fox gold first.
> What weight spring did you go with?
> 
> The main thing I found with lighter oil was the HBO would work as intended and still allow full travel. I currently have 0W-16 synthetic motor oil and it is spot on for my weight and setup.


Ordered 55lb spring based on their chart.


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## ARider (Feb 28, 2005)

Did you see the note about dropping rate 5lbs for 38/ZEB? 
I found the suggestion to be spot on, but maybe the extra heft of the e-bike will benefit from the stiffer spring.


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

ARider said:


> Did you see the note about dropping rate 5lbs for 38/ZEB?
> I found the suggestion to be spot on, but maybe the extra heft of the e-bike will benefit from the stiffer spring.


Yes, it says to add 15 for Ebike and deduct 5 for 38mm. I also added 10 for hydration pack and winter riding gear which is coming soon. We'll see soon enough.


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

First ride with Smashpot on fox 38 with 160mm. With 55lb spring I have 32mm of sag which shouldn’t be bad. Small bump are ok. However I can’t get anywhere near max travel no matter how hard I try. When assembling I checked the shim stack and this appears to be a newer design. Needed different size wrench than described in directions and there were only two shims from the factory not five like in the directions.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

What kind of situations did you encounter that you thought would use full travel? The amount you have there isn’t too bad for a first ride. I really suggest you dont aim to always get full travel out of the gate. In time you might ride in to the setting and use more, but that there is a good buffer for emergencies! Using more travel
Isnt automatically a better setting

And can we get your weight?


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

JohnnyC7 said:


> What kind of situations did you encounter that you thought would use full travel? The amount you have there isn’t too bad for a first ride. I really suggest you dont aim to always get full travel out of the gate. In time you might ride in to the setting and use more, but that there is a good buffer for emergencies! Using more travel
> Isnt automatically a better setting
> 
> And can we get your weight?


Once I saw how much travelI was/wasn't using I intentionally dropped the front wheel off some drops and slammed as much weight as I could on the front wheel. Tried this with the bottom out setting fully off and fully on with no difference. These hits would have easily used full travel with the Secus or stock setup. BTW, compression settings were fully open.

I weigh about 212 and I'm on a heavy Ebike. I've always been able to get full travel if I really wanted to just by overweighting the front wheel. Even if the spring is a bit too strong that shouldn't prevent this.


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## electricdownhill805 (May 25, 2020)

BIke N Gear said:


> First ride with Smashpot on fox 38 with 160mm. With 55lb spring I have 32mm of sag which shouldn’t be bad. Small bump are ok. However I can’t get anywhere near max travel no matter how hard I try. When assembling I checked the shim stack and this appears to be a newer design. Needed different size wrench than described in directions and there were only two shims from the factory not five like in the directions.
> View attachment 1957974


I initially had a 55lb spring same issue now I have a 45lb that is definitely softer. I liked the 55lb spring but after one inch of travel usage it would ramp up way too hard and not be able to use anywhere near full travel as well.

put the rebound settings in the middle and see if that helps that’s what I was meaning to try but never got to doing I did that with the 45lbs spring and it made it have better mid stroke support just riding in my driveway with less harsh ramp up.

Haven't had a chance to try the 45lbs spring on trails yet.


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

Does anybody know if the PVC tube on the 38's are supposed to be 40mm down in the lowers when you disassemble it? Not sure if that could affect how much travel I'm getting.


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## ARider (Feb 28, 2005)

BIke N Gear said:


> Does anybody know if the PVC tube on the 38's are supposed to be 40mm down in the lowers when you disassemble it? Not sure if that could affect how much travel I'm getting.


Nope, it is supposed to be captured by the top cap assembly and stay near the top. I would worry about it sliding down and causing issues.

It should be quite difficult to take the top cap off if it is assembled correctly. The chamfered edge of the spring spacer is supposed to capture the sleeve and pinch it in place.


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

ARider said:


> Nope, it is supposed to be captured by the top cap assembly and stay near the top. I would worry about it sliding down and causing issues.
> 
> It should be quite difficult to take the top cap off if it is assembled correctly. The chamfered edge of the spring spacer is suposed ot capture the sleeve and pinch it in place.


Well hopefully that was my problem. Waiting to hear back from Steve before I close this up. He did recommend lighter weight for the cold weather riding around here.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

BIke N Gear said:


> Well hopefully that was my problem. Waiting to hear back from Steve before I close this up. He did recommend lighter weight for the cold weather riding around here.


Yeah definitely get that fixed up, also I set someone up last week with almost the exact same requirements (fork, weight, bike etc) and went with a 50lb/in spring as another point of reference.

I often use Motorex 10wt, as it is thick enough for the cartridge but not so sticky/heavy to cause any issues like you might with Fox gold or supergliss. It is also very slippery for its viscosity, and when you have that much volume of oil it doesn't need to be a super specific lube oil


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

BIke N Gear said:


> Does anybody know if the PVC tube on the 38's are supposed to be 40mm down in the lowers when you disassemble it? Not sure if that could affect how much travel I'm getting.


I had the same issue with the sleeve dropping into the lowers. It happened a couple of times and the liner definitely adds friction to the mid/end stroke when it drops. Reason for it getting pulled off the perch is debatable at this point..

In the end I took the smashpot out of the 38...that liner material isn't ideal imo...went back to air and put a luftkappe in there, that got me to where I wanted to be in relation to feel (and dropped quite a chunk of weight).


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

I wonder if, instead of the liner, you could clip some bumpers on to every 10th turn of the coil, or something.


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## ARider (Feb 28, 2005)

I like the liner, it is much quieter than it was in a Lyrik without the PVC liner.
I also don't have the heat shrink on now. It would always end up at the bottom of the spring anyway.

I don't see how it could possibly slip down. It takes _lots_ of effort to remove the top cap from the fork with the liner installed. It is captured with a capital C!


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

springs said:


> I had the same issue with the sleeve dropping into the lowers. It happened a couple of times and the liner definitely adds friction to the mid/end stroke when it drops. Reason for it getting pulled off the perch is debatable at this point..
> 
> In the end I took the smashpot out of the 38...that liner material isn't ideal imo...went back to air and put a luftkappe in there, that got me to where I wanted to be in relation to feel (and dropped quite a chunk of weight).


Were you guys using the spring seat that came with the Zeb top cap or the one from the spring? The Zeb seat is wider as thats what holds the liner in place


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Were you guys using the spring seat that came with the Zeb top cap or the one from the spring? The Zeb seat is wider as thats what holds the liner in place


Used the correct one for the 38. When I removed the liner you could clearly see were the perch had made an impression on it (solid straight indent on the complete inner circumference of it).


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

JohnnyC7 said:


> Were you guys using the spring seat that came with the Zeb top cap or the one from the spring? The Zeb seat is wider as thats what holds the liner in place


I used the correct one. It's all back together with some lighter oil too. Gonna test it out today. I'll probably pull it apart and make sure everything stayed put just out of curiosity. I have a lighter spring coming nest week so it's coming apart again.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

BIke N Gear said:


> Once I saw how much travelI was/wasn't using I intentionally dropped the front wheel off some drops and slammed as much weight as I could on the front wheel. Tried this with the bottom out setting fully off and fully on with no difference. These hits would have easily used full travel with the Secus or stock setup. BTW, compression settings were fully open.
> 
> I weigh about 212 and I'm on a heavy Ebike. I've always been able to get full travel if I really wanted to just by overweighting the front wheel. Even if the spring is a bit too strong that shouldn't prevent this.


If there is no differece between the HBO setting on full open or closed, then I suspect the heatshrink on your inner tube has slid down and blocked the oil intake ports. Usually due to it not being fitted correctly. Over time it can also swell and expand, thus falling down.

I check it whenever I do a service and ended up replacing the heatshrink at about 12 months as it became loose.

Need to disassemble and check this.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

For the people having issue with the PVC sleeve, consider removing it and using this product which I posted last year.

I've now run it for close to a year on my Fox 36 and it is totally silent, has not migrated down the spring at all:





teK-- said:


> I found something which may finally be the answer to heatshrink sliding down the coil...
> 
> Flexi shrink. It uses polyolefin rings around a braided mesh of polyester. Once shrunken, it remains very flexible along its length and so it moves and folds with the spring coils as it compresses, rather than wanting to slide down it:
> 
> ...


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

teK-- said:


> For the people having issue with the PVC sleeve, consider removing it and using this product which I posted last year.
> 
> I've now run it for close to a year on my Fox 36 and it is totally silent, has not migrated down the spring at all:


But, the PVC sleeve is still in addition to the normal heat shrink tubing. It covers about the top 10" of spring.


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

teK-- said:


> If there is no differece between the HBO setting on full open or closed, then I suspect the heatshrink on your inner tube has slid down and blocked the oil intake ports. Usually due to it not being fitted correctly. Over time it can also swell and expand, thus falling down.
> 
> I check it whenever I do a service and ended up replacing the heatshrink at about 12 months as it became loose.
> 
> Need to disassemble and check this.


My heat shrink hasn't moved. PVC did slide down though. I need to check again as I rode today and still not getting full travel.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

teK-- said:


> If there is no differece between the HBO setting on full open or closed, then I suspect the heatshrink on your inner tube has slid down and blocked the oil intake ports. Usually due to it not being fitted correctly. Over time it can also swell and expand, thus falling down.
> 
> I check it whenever I do a service and ended up replacing the heatshrink at about 12 months as it became loose.
> 
> Need to disassemble and check this.


The heatshrink can't do that, Vorsprung are smarter than that. The worst it can do it block the bypass ports which is where the oil exits the cartridge before the HBO engages. And even then its soft enough/loose enough that the oil just pushes it out of the way with next to no effect on performance. The oil refills through a check valve on the main piston close to the bottom


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

I swapped to a higher rate spring last night, found it pretty tough to keep the PVC from sliding down before the spring perch could capture it.


----------



## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

How noisy is a Fox 38 if ridden without the PVC? Thinking about just removing it.


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## electricdownhill805 (May 25, 2020)

How hard is it to replace a spring I had my local bike shop do it but I think the 45lbs spring might be a little too soft for me.

gonna try a 50lb spring want to see if I can do it myself.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

electricdownhill805 said:


> How hard is it to replace a spring I had my local bike shop do it but I think the 45lbs spring might be a little too soft for me.
> 
> gonna try a 50lb spring want to see if I can do it myself.


Have a read of the section at the end of the manual and see if you're up to it. The only fiddly bit is keeping the rod extended or feeding it back up through the spring cleanly. They use a gear cable in the manual but I've made a rod that's threaded at the end to do the job too


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

BIke N Gear said:


> How noisy is a Fox 38 if ridden without the PVC? Thinking about just removing it.


It is quite noisy. Annoyingly noisy.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

electricdownhill805 said:


> How hard is it to replace a spring I had my local bike shop do it but I think the 45lbs spring might be a little too soft for me.
> 
> gonna try a 50lb spring want to see if I can do it myself.


The actual process of changing the spring is not difficult. I use a piece of fishing line to hold up the rod once the spring is removed.

The tricky part is due to manufacturing tolerances, the new spring may be more than 1-2 mm longer or shorter than your existing spring. This necessitates removing or adding 2mm spacers at the bottom of the spring in order to maintain proper preload adjustment range.

If you have to add spacers it is not usually a problem as you can just drop them down the rod. If you need to remove any spacers you need to pull out the whole Smashpot assembly.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

JohnnyC7 said:


> The heatshrink can't do that, Vorsprung are smarter than that. The worst it can do it block the bypass ports which is where the oil exits the cartridge before the HBO engages. And even then its soft enough/loose enough that the oil just pushes it out of the way with next to no effect on performance. The oil refills through a check valve on the main piston close to the bottom


Thanks for the info as I always thought those ports were oil intake.

Reason being is my heatshrink slid down once and covered the ports, and the fork became extremely progressive. It would hit a wall at about 80% travel and not go much past that no matter what. The HBO adjuster had zero effect.

When I replaced the heatshrink the fork performed normally again.

This is why I assumed the ports were sucking oil in.


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## Makten (Feb 25, 2014)

JohnnyC7 said:


> The oil refills through a check valve on the main piston close to the bottom


Where would that valve be located? I've had mine apart a dozen times and never seen a check valve. 
If that valv is _on_ the piston, the oil still has to come from above, which means in through the holes in the outer tube. Right?


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## springs (May 20, 2017)




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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

teK-- said:


> Thanks for the info as I always thought those ports were oil intake.
> 
> Reason being is my heatshrink slid down once and covered the ports, and the fork became extremely progressive. It would hit a wall at about 80% travel and not go much past that no matter what. The HBO adjuster had zero effect.
> 
> ...


I'm going to guess some kind of coincidence there, the smashpot only engages at about 70% stroke on a 160mm fork so if it was going from full steam to stopped in the space of 20-30mm it would be ABRUPT. if you don't get past 10-15mm from the end its possibly the valve but otherwise more likely something like spring rate or friction somwhere

diagram of check valve- (the pic was very nicely drawn but missed the shims so I carefully added them in - hard to tell I know!)


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

JohnnyC7 said:


> I'm going to guess some kind of coincidence there, the smashpot only engages at about 70% stroke on a 160mm fork so if it was going from full steam to stopped in the space of 20-30mm it would be ABRUPT. if you don't get past 10-15mm from the end its possibly the valve but otherwise more likely something like spring rate or friction somwhere
> 
> diagram of check valve- (the pic was very nicely drawn but missed the shims so I carefully added them in - hard to tell I know!)
> View attachment 1959115


Thanks for that.

So the holes higher up just below the heatshrink... there would be a fair amount of oil which gets pushed through them by the inner rod as the suspension compresses?

I.e. only some of the oil flow passes through the HBO valve/Bleed.

This would explain why my fork became extremely progressive when the larger holes were blocked by heatshrink.


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## electricdownhill805 (May 25, 2020)

When changing the spring and installing the plastic heat shrink it says to cut excess on the sides after using a heat gun ,why do you need to do that? 

Also says you need to be 100mm down on the spring which is 3.937 inches can I just round to 4”?


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

electricdownhill805 said:


> When changing the spring and installing the plastic heat shrink it says to cut excess on the sides after using a heat gun ,why do you need to do that?
> 
> Also says you need to be 100mm down on the spring which is 3.937 inches can I just round to 4”?


Of course!


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

electricdownhill805 said:


> When changing the spring and installing the plastic heat shrink it says to cut excess on the sides after using a heat gun ,why do you need to do that?
> 
> Also says you need to be 100mm down on the spring which is 3.937 inches can I just round to 4”?


You don't want the heatshrink rubbing against or catching on the inner tube as the suspension compresses.


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## 294037 (Jun 30, 2006)

electricdownhill805 said:


> When changing the spring and installing the plastic heat shrink it says to cut excess on the sides after using a heat gun ,why do you need to do that?
> 
> Also says you need to be 100mm down on the spring which is 3.937 inches can I just round to 4”?


So it doesn’t snag on the inner tube, if you look down the inside of the spring after the heat shrink is fitted you will see the ends poking inwards so that what needs to come off


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

electricdownhill805 said:


> Also says you need to be 100mm down on the spring which is 3.937 inches can I just round to 4”?


It's already rounded to a nice, even 100mm. Are you afraid of the metric system?  Hell, I'm in the United States and prefer to use the metric system, lol

But yes, 4" will work fine. It will likely move down the spring on its own anyway.


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## electricdownhill805 (May 25, 2020)

I installed/ swapped the 50lb spring myself and now the fork has a loud squishy sound it didn’t have before I don’t think

What could be causing that sound?
Did I do something wrong ?


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

There really needs to be something better than using heat shrink that frequently moves altering performance.


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## fizzywater (Oct 1, 2005)

electricdownhill805 said:


> I installed/ swapped the 50lb spring myself and now the fork has a loud squishy sound it didn’t have before I don’t think
> 
> What could be causing that sound?
> Did I do something wrong ?


Unfortunately I don’t have any meaningful technical suggestions, but definitely reach out to Vorsprung. They are usually very helpful and prompt to respond.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Scottyman said:


> There really needs to be something better than using heat shrink that frequently moves altering performance.


Yep flexishrink. See an earlier post I made.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

electricdownhill805 said:


> I installed/ swapped the 50lb spring myself and now the fork has a loud squishy sound it didn’t have before I don’t think
> 
> What could be causing that sound?
> Did I do something wrong ?


Maybe the fork is now rebounding faster from the stiffer spring. You may need to open up your rebound a click or two.


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## Scottyman (May 29, 2006)

teK-- said:


> For the people having issue with the PVC sleeve, consider removing it and using this product which I posted last year.
> 
> I've now run it for close to a year on my Fox 36 and it is totally silent, has not migrated down the spring at all:


Which size Shrinkflex are you using?


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

30mm


Scottyman said:


> Which size Shrinkflex are you using?


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

Is there any need for the heat shrink tubing on the spring on the 38mm forks which add an additional PVC isolator sleeve?


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

BIke N Gear said:


> Is there any need for the heat shrink tubing on the spring on the 38mm forks which add an additional PVC isolator sleeve?


No


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## racerzc (Jan 7, 2020)

What travel is the Smashpot sent out with for a FOX38? Ordered the ShrinkFlex in advance, thanks for the tip!


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

racerzc said:


> What travel is the Smashpot sent out with for a FOX38? Ordered the ShrinkFlex in advance, thanks for the tip!


You get to assemble the cartridge it yourself, so you can choose the the travel at that point.


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## codytaylor (Sep 3, 2010)

Ordered a Smashpot last week. After browsing through this super long thread, I went ahead and ordered some Motorex 10W fork oil and the Techflex Shrinkflex Fabric tubing (Mfr. #: H2F1.18BK8) through Summit Racing. Techflex H2F1.18BK8 Techflex Shrinkflex 2:1 Fabric Heat-Shrink Tubing | Summit Racing

Thanks to everyone going through the troubles of figuring all the quirks out!

Hopefully I got the right spring for myself. 150lb body weight, 160mm Fox 36. Ordered the 40lb spring...










Anything else I missed/should know?


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## fizzywater (Oct 1, 2005)

codytaylor said:


> Ordered a Smashpot last week.
> 
> Hopefully I got the right spring for myself. 150lb body weight, 160mm Fox 36. Ordered the 40lb spring...
> 
> Anything else I missed/should know?


40 lb spring should be a good starting point. I am the same body weight and originally started with the 40, but then went down to the 35 spring and found suspension heaven, but it really depends on your preferences and riding style. I am not an Über aggressive rider and my biggest drops and jumps these days are 3-4 foot to flat at most, which I am easily able to tune into pillow soft landings via the adjustable HBO despite the soft 35 spring. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## codytaylor (Sep 3, 2010)

fizzywater said:


> 40 lb spring should be a good starting point. I am the same body weight and originally started with the 40, but then went down to the 35 spring and found suspension heaven, but it really depends on your preferences and riding style. I am not an Über aggressive rider and my biggest drops and jumps these days are 3-4 foot to flat at most, which I am easily able to tune into pillow soft landings via the adjustable HBO despite the soft 35 spring.


Aw, that sounds just like me. Going to be attempting some Enduro racing, but not much on big jumps.


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

143ish lbs weight here. Started with a 35lb spring, ended up settling on a 30lb spring. This is on a Transition Scout with the fork set at 160mm so a little less than 64 degree HTA. I also am using 5wt Redline fork oil and only one active shim on the HBO


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## codytaylor (Sep 3, 2010)

BarrelAged said:


> 143ish lbs weight here. Started with a 35lb spring, ended up settling on a 30lb spring. This is on a Transition Scout with the fork set at 160mm so a little less than 64 degree HTA. I also am using 5wt Redline fork oil and only one active shim on the HBO


I've been reading your posts, thank you...I know Vorsprung notes to go down 5lb on spring for your fork than mine. Even so, it looks like I may should have went with the 35lb. 
I just emailed Steve with my application and concerns to get his opinion and see if I can change my order if need be.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

codytaylor said:


> Ordered a Smashpot last week. After browsing through this super long thread, I went ahead and ordered some Motorex 10W fork oil and the Techflex Shrinkflex Fabric tubing (Mfr. #: H2F1.18BK8) through Summit Racing. Techflex H2F1.18BK8 Techflex Shrinkflex 2:1 Fabric Heat-Shrink Tubing | Summit Racing
> 
> Thanks to everyone going through the troubles of figuring all the quirks out!
> 
> ...


The correct spring weight also depends a lot on your head angle and to some extent your wheelbase and chainstay length. The slacker the HA, the softer spring you need. Also the longer the rear of your bike the softer the spring you need as well. Plus how steep are the trails you are riding.

I am around 150lb as well and started with the 40lb but ended up with a 35lb as I ride all mountain. If I rode only DH I would be using the 40lb. Other people I know with a smashpot ended up with 2 springs in the end as it is a bit of trial and error especially if you are in between spring weights, then it's really up to personal preference.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

teK-- said:


> Other people I know with a smashpot ended up with 2 springs in the end


Yep. That’s me too.


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

Nat said:


> Yep. That’s me too.


This is the way.


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

I think their Spring Chart runs too high so everyone ends up buying a second spring.


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

BIke N Gear said:


> I think their Spring Chart runs too high so everyone ends up buying a second spring.


They already lowered the chart since release, so I don't think that is solution. Everyone just rides differently and the position on the bike, HA or damping can influence it so much that the 5lb spring strength can go either way in the end. So one spring is to set your reference and 2nd one should get where you want to be (hopefully). But I'm sure there are some lucky SOBs with only 1 perfect spring.

Same thing goes for coil shocks.


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

Anyone have an extra footstud for a RS? The insane force required (read: large metal hammer) to unseat mine from the lowers I think caused the stud to snap when I was tightening the footnut (and it was still gapped). Vorsprung seems to be non-op for the next week for holidays.


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## Skalman (Dec 30, 2021)

BIke N Gear said:


> I think their Spring Chart runs too high so everyone ends up buying a second spring.


I’ve bought two extra springs, but stiffer every time. I’m 96 kg and now run a 60lbs/inch spring in a 170 fork.


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

Ordering a Smashpot this week for my 2019 Fox Factory 36 Grip2 at 160mm travel to be paired with an EXT Storia v3 on my 2021 Specialized Stumpjumper Evo S3 which is run in low/slack mode because I'm mostly concerned with downhill/enduro. My question is which Spring for my 168-172 lbs, aggressive riding style. I'm running a heavier than recommended spring on the EXT because I'm not looking for super plush. The Vorsprung charts indicate 45 or 50 LBS sprint, but I'm inclined to start with a 55 due to my experience with the EXT Storia (EXT actually includes 2 springs with purchase). In addition to the internal travel adjustment, how much adjustment is available for the preload?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GlazedHam said:


> Ordering a Smashpot this week for my 2019 Fox Factory 36 Grip2 at 160mm travel to be paired with an EXT Storia v3 on my 2021 Specialized Stumpjumper Evo S3 which is run in low/slack mode because I'm mostly concerned with downhill/enduro. My question is which Spring for my 168-172 lbs, aggressive riding style. I'm running a heavier than recommended spring on the EXT because I'm not looking for super plush. The Vorsprung charts indicate 45 or 50 LBS sprint, but I'm inclined to start with a 55 due to my experience with the EXT Storia (EXT actually includes 2 springs with purchase). In addition to the internal travel adjustment, how much adjustment is available for the preload?


Free simple one: Bike Spring Rate Calculator - Simple - Front Spring Only (Shockcraft) | Shockcraft

Advanced one which takes different geometry into account: Bike Spring Rate Calculator - Advanced - Front & Rear Springs (Shockcraft) | Shockcraft

55lb/in is way too firm. 50lb/in is too firm. You'll be 40 or 45.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

I think 50lb will be firm but have some give...55lbs will be very firm.

I'm 160lbs and 35lb gives me 30% sag and 40lbs gives me 20% approximately.. you are only 10lbs heavier than me and every 5lb spring rate makes a very noticeable difference. My bike has a 63.4 head angle. I think you will find the 50 nice and firm but the 55 you might find very firm. 45 is what I would be on in your position personally.


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## dlxah (Nov 5, 2014)

GlazedHam said:


> Ordering a Smashpot this week for my 2019 Fox Factory 36 Grip2 at 160mm travel to be paired with an EXT Storia v3 on my 2021 Specialized Stumpjumper Evo S3 which is run in low/slack mode because I'm mostly concerned with downhill/enduro. My question is which Spring for my 168-172 lbs, aggressive riding style. I'm running a heavier than recommended spring on the EXT because I'm not looking for super plush. The Vorsprung charts indicate 45 or 50 LBS sprint, but I'm inclined to start with a 55 due to my experience with the EXT Storia (EXT actually includes 2 springs with purchase). In addition to the internal travel adjustment, how much adjustment is available for the preload?


I have the exact same fork and shock on my Patrol, and I also went up a spring rate from what EXT recommended. I'd start with whatever the Vorsprung chart says. I found their recommendations to be on the firmer side compared to EXT. I settled on the soft/medium rate as per the the chart.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

210 pounds riding weight, 50lbs spring in a 160mm Zeb yields 22% sag.


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

GlazedHam said:


> Ordering a Smashpot this week for my 2019 Fox Factory 36 Grip2 at 160mm travel to be paired with an EXT Storia v3 on my 2021 Specialized Stumpjumper Evo S3 which is run in low/slack mode because I'm mostly concerned with downhill/enduro. My question is which Spring for my 168-172 lbs, aggressive riding style. I'm running a heavier than recommended spring on the EXT because I'm not looking for super plush. The Vorsprung charts indicate 45 or 50 LBS sprint, but I'm inclined to start with a 55 due to my experience with the EXT Storia (EXT actually includes 2 springs with purchase). In addition to the internal travel adjustment, how much adjustment is available for the preload?


How far above normal settings are you now with the fork?


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## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

FWIW, I'm 170lbs out of the shower and running the 55 LBS spring in my Lyrik RTC3 at 160mm. Riding style is moderately aggressive, a handful of enduro races a year. The fork is most definitely oversprung, but unfortunately necessary due to the poor LSC of the Charger 2 damper. In speaking with Steve at Vorsprung, with a better damper I should be at 45 LBS or 50 LBS.


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

To jump on the rolling train...

175lb out of the shower. Stumpy 29" 160mm Lyric, HA 65-66ish.
With Charger I first had 55lb which was very stiff, but rideable. Changed to 50lb which was much more compliant but left me occasionally searching for support and from Charger I got none. After it blew itself I went to Avalanche damper and the 50lb is perfect. I don't bottom out except when I really, really, overshoot big drop to flat.

I don't see myself going to 45lb and when I tried 55lb again it was way too much for me, but I'm weaksauce now after 6months with injury... I can see someone powerful make it work. 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

yzedf said:


> How far above normal settings are you now with the fork?


Interesting question. I ride with quite a bit more air than suggested by Fox ...I'd have to check the numbers but about 10 to 15 PSI. Currently running a single token to prevent harsh bottom, but I still do bottom from time to time. LSC usually off. HSC about where suggested. I keep the HSR nearly off and the LSR is still something I'm messing with, but let's say about in the middle.

So, yeah, I find stiffer is faster and faster is funner, but would love more traction and compliance at low speeds (both fork and bike)...not getting that by essentially running 0 LSC.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Well if you want some compliance and you are only using one token now I certainly wouldn't look at the 55lb..forget about that one entirely it will be way too firm.

This is how I would rate it based off your weight..

35lb - soft - perhaps too soft
40lbs - supportive but plush
45lbs - firm but still kind of plush
50lbs - straight up firm
55lbs - Too firm


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

Danzzz88 said:


> Well if you want some compliance and you are only using one token now I certainly wouldn't look at the 55lb..forget about that one entirely it will be way too firm.
> 
> This is how I would rate it based off your weight..
> 
> ...


Thanks man! ...and thanks to all those who chimed in ...looks like 45lbs is my rate.


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

GlazedHam said:


> how much adjustment is available for the preload?


None, really. Vorsprung has you set preload to within just a couple millimeters when building the cartridge. If you need more or less you will need a different spring.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

BarrelAged said:


> None, really. Vorsprung has you set preload to within just a couple millimeters when building the cartridge. If you need more or less you will need a different spring.


This is incorrect. You can add spacers to add more preload if you run out of adjustment range.


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

Crossmaxx said:


> This is incorrect. You can add spacers to add more preload if you run out of adjustment range.


Those are just to adjust for length variations in different springs. You still have to keep the preload collar spacing at 8-10mm.

So while there is minor adjustment available for variation in spring lengths, there is not really enough preload adjustment available for different rider weights. You can't just crank down the preload because you gained 10lbs or because you want to send it more aggressively one day.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

BarrelAged said:


> Those are just to adjust for length variations in different springs. You still have to keep the preload collar spacing at 8-10mm.


Have you actually installed a Smashpot unit? 

From their manual: Check that the COIL SPRING is adequately preloaded so that it is not able to rattle around. One or two of the 2mm SPRING SPACERS (part number: 13-07-3-08) may be required for appropriate preload. Position the longest spacers closest to the COIL SPRING and the shortest spacers furthest away as this help stabilise the spring assembly during use.


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## BarrelAged (Jun 7, 2021)

Crossmaxx said:


> Have you actually installed a Smashpot unit?
> 
> From their manual: Check that the COIL SPRING is adequately preloaded so that it is not able to rattle around. One or two of the 2mm SPRING SPACERS (part number: 13-07-3-08) may be required for appropriate preload. Position the longest spacers closest to the COIL SPRING and the shortest spacers furthest away as this help stabilise the spring assembly during use.


Yes, I have. I even posted pics a few pages back. Re-read my post above. I edited with a second paragraph to better illustrate what I'm trying to say.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Crossmaxx said:


> This is incorrect. You can add spacers to add more preload if you run out of adjustment range.


You can, but should you?

Running too much preload to mask an underrated spring is just asking for setup that is less than optimal. Plus it can cause excessive topout noise or spring binding near bottom out.

Vorsprung recommend no more than 2mm of preload for that reason.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

Agreed


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Preload should be adjusted or spacers if you are getting top out noise or clunking during compression. For sag you change spring rate.


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

Assuming that it is rare to find the perfect spring for the rate and static ride height I want, is the static ride height set by increasing or decreasing travel?

Note: on my EXT Story, I can run two different springs, but I will either have lots of preload or very little in order to get the sag where i want it. Bike ride differently in both cases.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Preload is mainly to remove play with the Smashpot and is set within 2mm of the recommended value from Vorsprung..more dramatic changes require spacer adjustment but again this is only to prevent top out or clunking noises etc...none of it is to adjust sag or ride height.

Basically you don't have that fine ability to adjust sag with the Smashpot...you just pick the coil that matches what you need most closely..then adjust spacers and preload to remove play in the system and that's it.

Don't be too overly concerned about sag though...it's not the be all and end all of suspension setup. Too much preload even if you did have the ability to adjust it is not good as it requires that same amount of preloaded force 'from top out' before the suspension will even start compressing...meaning potholes and if too much preload even small bump compliance will be negatively effect. You always want to run the least preload as possible whilst still being content with the ride height. The Smashpot you don't have much control over preload anyway but the rear shock you don't want more than 2 full turns max...ideally half a turn. Too much preload on can also damage dampers as the spring is effectively still providing force even at full extension...damper pistons have been known to break off due to too much preload.


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

Danzzz88 said:


> Preload is mainly to remove play with the Smashpot and is set within 2mm of the recommended value from Vorsprung..more dramatic changes require spacer adjustment but again this is only to prevent top out or clunking noises etc...none of it is to adjust sag or ride height.
> 
> Basically you don't have that fine ability to adjust sag with the Smashpot...you just pick the coil that matches what you need most closely..then adjust spacers and preload to remove play in the system and that's it.
> 
> Don't be too overly concerned about sag though...it's not the be all and end all of suspension setup. Too much preload even if you did have the ability to adjust it is not good as it requires that same amount of preloaded force 'from top out' before the suspension will even start compressing...meaning potholes and if too much preload even small bump compliance will be negatively effect. You always want to run the least preload as possible whilst still being content with the ride height. The Smashpot you don't have much control over preload anyway but the rear shock you don't want more than 2 full turns max...ideally half a turn. Too much preload on can also damage dampers as the spring is effectively still providing force even at full extension...damper pistons have been known to break off due to too much preload.


Agree, the least amount of preload is generally the best for small bump sensitivity.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

I've been playing with compression stacks in the last week, and wondering what geometry makes the most sense for a Smashpot setup.












Borrowing from this EXT blog, a flat stack is the most digressive option and sounds pretty intriguing, given that the coil is so supple in the initial part of the stroke, so a bit of more low speed support might be good. Without HBC I could see a digressive curve having issues with bottom out, but you could dial in as much end-stroke support as you need with the the Smashpot.

Zooming out, are there divergent philosophies on what makes more sense for air and coil spring setups?


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## 2strokenut (May 24, 2016)

half_man_half_scab said:


> I've been playing with compression stacks in the last week, and wondering what geometry makes the most sense for a Smashpot setup.
> 
> View attachment 1966638
> 
> ...


What fork do you have? I have a 38 factory on my Firebird, smashpot is great on initial stroke and doesn't bottom but needs more midstroke support. I dropped it off at my suspension shop to see what they can do I'll have to ask what they went with today when I get it.


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## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

2strokenut said:


> What fork do you have? I have a 38 factory on my Firebird, smashpot is great on initial stroke and doesn't bottom but needs more midstroke support. I dropped it off at my suspension shop to see what they can do I'll have to ask what they went with today when I get it.


do you find it way too heavy on your bike?


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

Selling a Smashpot with fitments for a Zeb/Lyrik and 40/45lb springs if anyone is interested.


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## 2strokenut (May 24, 2016)

onawave said:


> do you find it way too heavy on your bike?


You mean like weight of the spring kit vs air? Not noticeable. It just doesn't have the mid stroke support of the air, riding too high in the stroke becoming harsh.


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## Staktup (Jan 21, 2016)

2strokenut said:


> You mean like weight of the spring kit vs air? Not noticeable. It just doesn't have the mid stroke support of the air, riding too high in the stroke becoming harsh.


I converted my 38 too but have plenty of mid-stroke support albeit I'm running 5 lbs higher on my SB165 than my PUSH fox 36 on my SB140 (50 vs. 45). I wanted a higher rate for the park and braking support. This seems to do the trick for me...


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## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

Staktup said:


> I converted my 38 too but have plenty of mid-stroke support albeit I'm running 5 lbs higher on my SB165 than my PUSH fox 36 on my SB140 (50 vs. 45). I wanted a higher rate for the park and braking support. This seems to do the trick for me...


so your mostly doing chairlift laps on it? do you pedal it much?


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## Staktup (Jan 21, 2016)

Dedicated park bike sure I take her out on XC/AM trails and doing drops here and there. I had an MRP Bartlett before the 38. The slackness and front wheel flop is more of a (minor) issue vs. weight


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## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

Staktup said:


> Dedicated park bike sure I take her out on XC/AM trails and doing drops here and there. I had an MRP Bartlett before the 38. The slackness and front wheel flop is more of a (minor) issue vs. weight


so basically you think the extra traction is worth it?


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## Staktup (Jan 21, 2016)

Traction, support, hydraulic bottom out, stiction -free smoothness and less frequent servicing... yes

But TBH, I never rode the newer Fox 36 & 38
models, esp. the 38's new cartridge air spring. I immediately put ACS and Smashpot coils in based upon how I liked the ACS in my 2018-19 forks.


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## 2strokenut (May 24, 2016)

Staktup said:


> I converted my 38 too but have plenty of mid-stroke support albeit I'm running 5 lbs higher on my SB165 than my PUSH fox 36 on my SB140 (50 vs. 45). I wanted a higher rate for the park and braking support. This seems to do the trick for me...


I'm no expert but I thought about going up 5lbs but I think with it not bottoming out at 50lbs its more efficient to have the mid stroke support handled by valving instead of more spring. I have good sag already.

I did just get my 38 back from Stillwell and its a huge improvement. The compression clickers now actually do something. I think the fork may be a tad stiffer on the bottom but going over gnarly rocky stuff the fork just floats over it whereas before it felt harsh. Still going to do some testing before Bootleg this weekend but it's pretty promising so far.


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

2strokenut said:


> I'm no expert but I thought about going up 5lbs but I think with it not bottoming out at 50lbs its more efficient to have the mid stroke support handled by valving instead of more spring. I have good sag already.
> 
> I did just get my 38 back from Stillwell and its a huge improvement. The compression clickers now actually do something. I think the fork may be a tad stiffer on the bottom but going over gnarly rocky stuff the fork just floats over it whereas before it felt harsh. Still going to do some testing before Bootleg this weekend but it's pretty promising so far.


Very curious what Stillwell did to it. I know that shop well from the moto world.


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## Staktup (Jan 21, 2016)

GH28 said:


> Very curious what Stillwell did to it. I know that shop well from the moto world.


I wonder if they popped in a shim or spring to give the stack more resistance to actually make a difference when the dial is adjusted...?


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## 2strokenut (May 24, 2016)

I can ask, I usually don't like getting noisy with that kind of stuff since I know enough to be dangerous and don't want to second guess them. I'd rather them hand me something not knowing what they did and give feedback about what I feel. Whats cool is was able to back off compression until I actually got it to bottom and then started turning up the compression little by little. Bottoming on the smashpot is different than the regular air. The air bottoms with a clank and the smashpot smacks back at you like you have no rebound. Almost like you just landed on rubber and it bounced you back.

Yeah they've done my dirt bike suspension for years and their work is top notch, easy to work with them and if I don't like something they make it right. Also helps that they're local but really nice and competent bunch of guys to work with.


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

2strokenut said:


> I can ask, I usually don't like getting noisy with that kind of stuff since I know enough to be dangerous and don't want to second guess them. I'd rather them hand me something not knowing what they did and give feedback about what I feel. Whats cool is was able to back off compression until I actually got it to bottom and then started turning up the compression little by little. Bottoming on the smashpot is different than the regular air. The air bottoms with a clank and the smashpot smacks back at you like you have no rebound. Almost like you just landed on rubber and it bounced you back.
> 
> Yeah they've done my dirt bike suspension for years and their work is top notch, easy to work with them and if I don't like something they make it right. Also helps that they're local but really nice and competent bunch of guys to work with.


I wouldn't want/need to know super specific about it, but enough to know that they're going after the base valve and midvalve together.


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## tp806 (Nov 13, 2008)

Have any of you felt when bottoming out the Smashpot an abrupt stop like hitting a brick wall, for lack of a better description?

I did a 5 feet (1.5m ish) drop to flat on dirt, and felt like the fork bottomed out completely.
There was a sudden stop in travel on bottom out, and I felt a painful shock momentarily go through my wrists, and right after the fork rebounded.
But looking down at the o-ring the fork used only 150 out of 170mm.

What could be the reason for this?

To give some context:
I am 225lbs fully kitted, riding a 2021 Forbidden Dreadnought in mullet configuration.
Shock: 2021 EXT Storia v3 on a 425lbs spring
Fork: 2019 Fox Float 36 GRIP2 29 @170mm - *HSC: 2 clicks, LSC: 4 clicks, HSR: 3 clicks, LSR: 4 clicks (all from fully open)*
Smashpot: *Coil 55lbs/in - HBO: 6 clicks from fully opened.*
This was my second ride after installing the coil conversion kit but the first with proper drops and jumps at high speeds.
Smashpot install was done by my local bike shop using Fox 20wt Gold oil.

Is a 55lbs spring too stiff? Perhaps changing to a 50lbs might be better based on what I have read on this thread?

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Jason419 (Jan 2, 2012)

tp806 said:


> Have any of you felt when bottoming out the Smashpot an abrupt stop like hitting a brick wall, for lack of a better description?
> 
> I did a 5inch drop to flat on dirt, and felt like the fork bottomed out completely.
> There was a sudden stop in travel on bottom out, and I felt a painful shock momentarily go through my wrists, and right after the fork rebounded.
> ...


It sounds like your HBO is too stiff currently. Try the same drop with the HBO fully open, if you still have the same sensation you'll most likely have to remove a shim or two to reduce the damping of the hydraulic bottom out.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

GH28 said:


> Selling a Smashpot with fitments for a Zeb/Lyrik and 40/45lb springs if anyone is interested.


I've just got my first Zeb on the spring-tester. Do you remember what pressure and spring-rate you were running?


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## brash (Dec 4, 2018)

tp806 said:


> Have any of you felt when bottoming out the Smashpot an abrupt stop like hitting a brick wall, for lack of a better description?
> 
> I did a 5inch drop to flat on dirt, and felt like the fork bottomed out completely.
> There was a sudden stop in travel on bottom out, and I felt a painful shock momentarily go through my wrists, and right after the fork rebounded.
> ...


At your weight I found the 50lb better with some compression wound on rather than 55lb and everything open.


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## tp806 (Nov 13, 2008)

brash said:


> At your weight I found the 50lb better with some compression wound on rather than 55lb and everything open.


Thanks for the replies, I was thinking of changing to a lighter 50lbs spring and thinner oil, come summer when temperatures rise over 20C (currently UK winter is cold around 5C or less, usually in the Surrey hills), and give the Smashpot couple of months to break in properly (plus give me time to drop to my summer weight... 😁 )
But seems that I may need to change to a lighter spring/oil sooner?!!! 🤔
Will try also changing the shim stack of the HBO.


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## Staktup (Jan 21, 2016)

tp806 said:


> Thanks for the replies, I was thinking of changing to a lighter 50lbs spring and thinner oil, come summer when temperatures rise over 20C (currently UK winter is cold around 5C or less, usually in the Surrey hills), and give the Smashpot couple of months to break in properly (plus give me time to drop to my summer weight... 😁 )
> But seems that I may need to change to a lighter spring/oil sooner?!!! 🤔
> Will try also changing the shim stack of the HBO.


I am 170-176 lbs geared up for trail & bike park and run a 45 & 50 lb coil respectively on a Fox 36 and 38 set to 170mm. I reach full travel in each scenario. I think I may ge t a little top-out smack once in a while, but nothing like the harsh impact you are feeling upon hard landings. Seems odd- good luck finding the issue.


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## 2strokenut (May 24, 2016)

GH28 said:


> I wouldn't want/need to know super specific about it, but enough to know that they're going after the base valve and midvalve together.


They said they messed with the whoel stack and leaf spring. 

I raced bootleg this weekend and it was a good test of the fork and my new Storia V3. For the enduro I found a good setting that worked well pretty much everywhere. The DH race sunday was much more aggressive and couldn;t shake the feeling of the fork being way too compressed and getting harsh. I ran hsc and lsc all the way in and sped the rebound out3-4 clicks. It wasn't perfect by any means and I still won my class but spoke to vorsprung and they're sending me a 55lb spring. If it could just hold up a little bit better with less comp I think we may have a winner.


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

Dougal said:


> I've just got my first Zeb on the spring-tester. Do you remember what pressure and spring-rate you were running?


~65psi in the air spring, depending on the pump that was used. Ended up on a 45lb coil with the Smashpot but could have gone stiffer too. 170mm configuration, 180lb rider.


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

My kit didn't have this sticker and waisted a bit of time assuming the opposite direction.


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## Staktup (Jan 21, 2016)

GlazedHam said:


> View attachment 1971507
> 
> 
> My kit didn't have this sticker and waisted a bit of time assuming the opposite direction.


 Same as any other dial, no? Lefty loosey, righty tighty. Left / CCW is open or softer, right / CW closed or firmer


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## GlazedHam (Jan 14, 2004)

Staktup said:


> Same as any other dial, no? Lefty loosey, righty tighty. Left / CCW is open or softer, right / CW closed or firmer


I suppose it depends on your orientation. I was tweaking the knobs as if the fork as if viewing the fork upside down. Flip the fork over and CCW is now CW ...or is it just in my brain? 

Anyway, love the Smashpot for the improved traction and small bump compliance. Also, mid-stroke seems more supportive ...fork rides a bit higher.

Went with the recommended 45lbs spring on a 160mm Fox36 and head angle 63.5. I weigh 170lbs and ride rocky, enduro-style trails.


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

GlazedHam said:


> I suppose it depends on your orientation. I was tweaking the knobs as if the fork as if viewing the fork upside down. Flip the fork over and CCW is now CW ...or is it just in my brain?
> 
> Anyway, love the Smashpot for the improved traction and small bump compliance. Also, mid-stroke seems more supportive ...fork rides a bit higher.
> 
> Went with the recommended 45lbs spring on a 160mm Fox36 and head angle 63.5. I weigh 170lbs and ride rocky, enduro-style trails.


The knob moves up and down in relation to the bottom of the fork. All the way firm is closest to the fork, all the way soft is farthest away.


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## Staktup (Jan 21, 2016)

GlazedHam said:


> I suppose it depends on your orientation. I was tweaking the knobs as if the fork as if viewing the fork upside down. Flip the fork over and CCW is now CW ...or is it just in my brain?
> 
> Anyway, love the Smashpot for the improved traction and small bump compliance. Also, mid-stroke seems more supportive ...fork rides a bit higher.
> 
> Went with the recommended 45lbs spring on a 160mm Fox36 and head angle 63.5. I weigh 170lbs and ride rocky, enduro-style trails.


Think of it as a gate valve handle for your garden hose. Only one way to close & open, even if you hang upside down like a bat to operate it.


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## enjoi525 (Oct 11, 2013)

I'm looking to replace the clear pvc sleeve used to protect the stanchions on the 38. Anyone have know what I'm looking for (dimensions, thickness, ect.) to source it from a local hardware store, my original is long gone.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

enjoi525 said:


> I'm looking to replace the clear pvc sleeve used to protect the stanchions on the 38. Anyone have know what I'm looking for (dimensions, thickness, ect.) to source it from a local hardware store, my original is long gone.


My fox 38 kit: 300x92x1.95 mm


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## enjoi525 (Oct 11, 2013)

Thank you. If it's an official fox part, I'm having trouble finding it. Do you happen to have a product number?


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

enjoi525 said:


> Thank you. If it's an official fox part, I'm having trouble finding it. Do you happen to have a product number?


It's not a Fox part. It's from Vorsprung.


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## enjoi525 (Oct 11, 2013)

teK-- said:


> It's not a Fox part. It's from Vorsprung.


ok thanks


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Just transferred Smashpot from a 36 over to a 38.

Wow that PVC sleeve makes hard work of installing the assembly! 

By following the instructions (leave 5mm of the PVC hanging out the top of the crown to start off), it was so tight there was no way I could get the spring perch down the tube. The threads in the top of the stanchion were just gripping it tight.

Ended up starting with the pvc tube at about the bottom of where the threads are and even then had to tap the assembly through with a mallet. Ended up getting it down far enough to start tightening the top cap to get it home.

*How the hell am I going to get this out for maintenance in future?? *

If I pull up on the top cap the whole assembly just extends because the topout spring takes up the slack. If I push up from the bottom, the coil spring just compresses.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

Unthread top cap, push down on bars.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

half_man_half_scab said:


> Unthread top cap, push down on bars.


Thanks. Assumed that wouldn't work as it would just compress the spring. Will remember for first service


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## clubby (Sep 26, 2011)

tp806 said:


> Have any of you felt when bottoming out the Smashpot an abrupt stop like hitting a brick wall, for lack of a better description?
> 
> I did a 5 feet (1.5m ish) drop to flat on dirt, and felt like the fork bottomed out completely.
> There was a sudden stop in travel on bottom out, and I felt a painful shock momentarily go through my wrists, and right after the fork rebounded.
> But looking down at the o-ring the fork used only 150 out of 170mm.


Also running mine in UK winter. I think the recommended weight of oil is too heavy in colder temps. Had messaged Vorsprung about this pre purchase and Steve recommended lighter oil for 5 Celsius and below. Shop also agreed and installed with 15wt. I’m still not getting full travel but am not a hugely aggressive rider. Happy with sag level and first 2/3 of stroke, so think of swapping to 10wt oil rather than a lighter spring. HBO wide open at the moment, so plenty of adjustment in dial to increase if necessary.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

half_man_half_scab said:


> Unthread top cap, push down on bars.


Thanks managed to get mine out without any fuss.

Someone mentioned wrap a towel around the top cap etc in case oil sprays out the top once it comes loose.

No need, I found just unwind the cap completely, and then just compress the fork in short quick compressions and the spring assembly slowly walks itself up and out of the fork.

Then just use a dental pick to grap onto the pvc sleeve enough to get some needle nose pliers in there and fish it back up.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

clubby said:


> Also running mine in UK winter. I think the recommended weight of oil is too heavy in colder temps. Had messaged Vorsprung about this pre purchase and Steve recommended lighter oil for 5 Celsius and below. Shop also agreed and installed with 15wt. I’m still not getting full travel but am not a hugely aggressive rider. Happy with sag level and first 2/3 of stroke, so think of swapping to 10wt oil rather than a lighter spring. HBO wide open at the moment, so plenty of adjustment in dial to increase if necessary.


Have you considered rearranging the shims around on the HBO so it reduces the end stroke ramp up?


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## clubby (Sep 26, 2011)

springs said:


> Have you considered rearranging the shims around on the HBO so it reduces the end stroke ramp up?


Thought about it but bit worried about taking lots of little bits apart. Fills me with dread working with hardware that small. Shop supplied my conversion ready to fit, so all I had to do was remove bottom nut and drop it in. Thought that lighter oil would be an easier fix.


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## electricdownhill805 (May 25, 2020)

tp806 said:


> Have any of you felt when bottoming out the Smashpot an abrupt stop like hitting a brick wall, for lack of a better description?
> 
> I did a 5 feet (1.5m ish) drop to flat on dirt, and felt like the fork bottomed out completely.
> There was a sudden stop in travel on bottom out, and I felt a painful shock momentarily go through my wrists, and right after the fork rebounded.
> ...


I had that problem with my 55lbs spring would not use anywhere near full travel 45lbs was way to soft and 50lbs was about right


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## Two_bricks (Mar 18, 2021)

Anyone care to measure what is the length of a Vorsprung coil spring?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Two_bricks said:


> Anyone care to measure what is the length of a Vorsprung coil spring?


African or European?


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## Two_bricks (Mar 18, 2021)

Yes.


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## mak_kioy (Aug 26, 2008)

Did anyone had the seal head unthread its self during use? I had a really bad topout the week before and since then i was having something rattling inside. I opened the smashpot today an found that the seal head had been unthreaded by 5-7mm and messed up with the preload. everything was tighten to spec when installed.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

mak_kioy said:


> Did anyone had the seal head unthread its self during use? I had a really bad topout the week before and since then i was having something rattling inside. I opened the smashpot today an found that the seal head had been unthreaded by 5-7mm and messed up with the preload. everything was tighten to spec when installed.


Haven't had that happen before, and I've pulled apart that assembly several times to change travel etc.

Never used a torque wrench either, as I don't have a crows foot attachment. Just tighten until it bottoms out then maybe an extra 1/16 of a turn.


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## Jessarpi (Jan 16, 2012)

mak_kioy said:


> Did anyone had the seal head unthread its self during use? I had a really bad topout the week before and since then i was having something rattling inside. I opened the smashpot today an found that the seal head had been unthreaded by 5-7mm and messed up with the preload. everything was tighten to spec when installed.


I'll be pulling my Lyrik apart tomorrow to inspect. Haven't had any top out noise or feel until today. I had sped up the rebound with 2 clicks and had the bike stored upside down for a couple of days but didn't think that either of those things could create the top out feeling I just experienced. 
Is your fork silent and with out the top out feel now?


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## mak_kioy (Aug 26, 2008)

Jessarpi said:


> I'll be pulling my Lyrik apart tomorrow to inspect. Haven't had any top out noise or feel until today. I had sped up the rebound with 2 clicks and had the bike stored upside down for a couple of days but didn't think that either of those things could create the top out feeling I just experienced.
> Is your fork silent and with out the top out feel now?



After opening it an re-installing it from start, its dead silent now. It's been around 15 rides from then. We'll see in the near future.


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## MadcowPL (Jul 1, 2009)

Does anyone know the dimensions of Zeb's air spring retaining ring? It sprung out so fast it must've ended up in another dimension as I can't find it anywhere... 

Note to self: invest in proper retaining ring pliers, ones with interchangeable tips are ****.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Has anyone with a 38 or a Zeb removed the PVC sleeve and just ran the spring with either heatshrink or Flexishrink?

I reckon the pvc rubs on the spring and makes a noise and causes friction on compression.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

teK-- said:


> Has anyone with a 38 or a Zeb removed the PVC sleeve and just ran the spring with either heatshrink or Flexishrink?
> 
> I reckon the pvc rubs on the spring and makes a noise and causes friction on compression.


Yes I tried the spring without the pvc and it makes noise with and without the heat shrink. I also think the spring is grabbing the pvc material and creating extra unwanted damping especially the deeper in the stroke.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

springs said:


> Yes I tried the spring without the pvc and it makes noise with and without the heat shrink. I also think the spring is grabbing the pvc material and creating extra unwanted damping especially the deeper in the stroke.


Here's a theory; Fox Gold is really sticky oil due to all the tackifier additives. When the PVC sleeve gets Fox gold on it, I find it sticks like crazy to the inner walls of the stanchions. Maybe it has a similar effect on the inner surface that rubs against the spring?

The PVC sleeve material is 2mm thick. This means with it installed, it is similar internal stanchion dimension as a Fox 34 fork. That would be less clearance than a Lyrik or Fox 36 hence the theory of it rubbing regularly.

*Couple of ideas:*
1. Check out the Shrinkflex stuff I linked in an earlier post. A couple of layers of this stuff would easily make up 2mm thick and take up the slack inside the bigger Fox 38 legs, and probably slide a hell of a lot better when it touches. Remove the PVC sleeve in that case.

2. Keep PVC sleeve but use different oil that is not so tacky. Motorex 15W fork oil maybe?


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

teK-- said:


> Here's a theory; Fox Gold is really sticky oil due to all the tackifier additives. When the PVC sleeve gets Fox gold on it, I find it sticks like crazy to the inner walls of the stanchions. Maybe it has a similar effect on the inner surface that rubs against the spring?
> 
> The PVC sleeve material is 2mm thick. This means with it installed, it is similar internal stanchion dimension as a Fox 34 fork. That would be less clearance than a Lyrik or Fox 36 hence the theory of it rubbing regularly.
> 
> ...


I always use Motorex 10W so can’t give you any comparison to Fox Gold.
I did prefer how the fork felt without the PVC sleeve but it was too noisy for me. In the end I went back to air on the 38 and put the Smashpot in a DVO. The 38 with coil was too heavy so chasing a solution to the sleeve rub became less important.


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## GH28 (Jun 16, 2014)

The PVC sleeve causes MASSIVE friction in the 38 and the Zeb stanchion, or it'll rattle like crazy without.

The sealhead thread issue isn't surprising either, since it's very easy to make that cartridge overcome the top-out spring and slap metal-on-metal with an average rebound speed.

Between all of those and the bottoming system that hit like a wall, and the foot stud that snapped when torqued to spec, the Smashpot was a bit of a science project and more than just an inconvenience for something that should have been dead-simple. Seems like they biffed it on the top out, the bottom out, and the middle of the stroke parts of things.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

GH28 said:


> The PVC sleeve causes MASSIVE friction in the 38 and the Zeb stanchion, or it'll rattle like crazy without.
> 
> The sealhead thread issue isn't surprising either, since it's very easy to make that cartridge overcome the top-out spring and slap metal-on-metal with an average rebound speed.
> 
> Between all of those and the bottoming system that hit like a wall, and the foot stud that snapped when torqued to spec, the Smashpot was a bit of a science project and more than just an inconvenience for something that should have been dead-simple. Seems like they biffed it on the top out, the bottom out, and the middle of the stroke parts of things.


Thanks for confirming my suspicion, that the reduced small bump sensitivity on the 38 compared to the 36, is due to the pvc sleeve.. I thought it had to do with the increased air chamber size and recommendation to go down 5lb for the spring, when going for a Zeb/38.

I'm going to try double wrap of flexishrink on the spring and remove the PVC sleeve...


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## karpiel (Aug 27, 2010)

Two_bricks said:


> Anyone care to measure what is the length of a Vorsprung coil spring?


I'm sure you have the answer now but if not they are 400mm regardless of rate.


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

GH28 said:


> The PVC sleeve causes MASSIVE friction in the 38 and the Zeb stanchion, or it'll rattle like crazy without.
> 
> The sealhead thread issue isn't surprising either, since it's very easy to make that cartridge overcome the top-out spring and slap metal-on-metal with an average rebound speed.
> 
> Between all of those and the bottoming system that hit like a wall, and the foot stud that snapped when torqued to spec, the Smashpot was a bit of a science project and more than just an inconvenience for something that should have been dead-simple. Seems like they biffed it on the top out, the bottom out, and the middle of the stroke parts of things.


Did you replace the crushwasher when you snapped the footstud? It happened to me also, with almost no torque, but i reused the washer which is what gives resistance to the nut while tightening. I learned from my mistake and replace washers, no issue since.

HBO works at advertised, there is no issue. It may be bit too stiff from factory for lightweight riders or if you have lot of travel and don't ride that hard, but you can easily remove shims, which is probably better solution than having to ship extra shims and then you would add them when needed.

Spring rub creating additional friction sucks and kinda defeats the purpose of the coil, luckily no issues with Lyric.

I also have no issue with top out, even when I had blown damper without rebound damping and 55lb spring.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

I had spring rub in the zeb with the heat shrink and pvs liner on at the same time...removing heat shrink helped. I think it depends on coil rate too, with a 35lb spring I can get away leaving the heat shrink on but with the 40lb it needs to come off. I also get a clunking sound and slight notch feel when compressing around 1/3 to half travel with the 40lb spring but don't with the 35lb...haven't figured it out yet. But also feel there may be a problem with the fork in general as although everything is butter smooth up to sag point it suddenly seems like the fork doesn't want to move further when leaning forwards on the bike or over small high frequency chatter it simply doesn't respond. I definitely feel the Smashpot worked much better in my old FOX e6 than in the ZEB and it has less noise and issues too.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Danzzz88 said:


> I had spring rub in the zeb with the heat shrink and pvs liner on at the same time...removing heat shrink helped. I think it depends on coil rate too, with a 35lb spring I can get away leaving the heat shrink on but with the 40lb it needs to come off. I also get a clunking sound and slight notch feel when compressing around 1/3 to half travel with the 40lb spring but don't with the 35lb...haven't figured it out yet. But also feel there may be a problem with the fork in general as although everything is butter smooth up to sag point it suddenly seems like the fork doesn't want to move further when leaning
> forwards on the bike or over small high frequency chatter it simply doesn't respond. I definitely feel the Smashpot worked much better in my old FOX e6 than in the ZEB and it has less noise and issues too.


My recent tests might help you...

The PVC sleeve being so rigid (worse when cold) means it doesn't really sit flush against the stanchions once it is furthest away from the top where it's clamped in place. In the pic the pvc is like an egg shape near the bottom.

There would most certainly be spring rub no matter the spring weight/diameter.

I removed the PVC and applied 2 layers of flexi shrink. In similar location and length to what is usually specified for the fox 36 when using normal heatshrink.

After a decent ride on some rough trails I heard a faint clunk maybe half a dozen times, under very specific conditions like a fast series of ruts whilst bike leaned over or cornering. Rest of the time the noise levels totally acceptable.

Most telling is the small bump sensitivity is vastly improved and feels like when the smashpot was in my fox36. Also gone is the groaning/rubbing noise which is evidently the pvc sleeve rubbing on the spring. The fork feels smooth and no binding through whole stroke.

Also saves around 50g of unsprung weight in the process.

I have now added a third layer of flexi shrink, which is shorter than the second layer. Effectively stacking 3 layers in total, each one shorter than the one under it.

I used to run 1 layer of flexi shrink in the 36 and it was completely silent.

3 layers adds 3mm in total to the diameter of the spring. I believe the 2 extra layers will now get rid of almost all of the remaining noise as it closes the stanchion difference between the 2 forks.

Pics below.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

teK-- said:


> My recent tests might help you...
> 
> The PVC sleeve being so rigid (worse when cold) means it doesn't really sit flush against the stanchions once it is furthest away from the top where it's clamped in place. In the pic the pvc is like an egg shape near the bottom.
> 
> ...


Have you shown that bottom pic to Steve and does he have any opinion or remedy for it? I'm sure he would be interested and would provide an update if he sees that.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Danzzz88 said:


> Have you shown that bottom pic to Steve and does he have any opinion or remedy for it? I'm sure he would be interested and would provide an update if he sees that.


Not yet. Good idea though i will email him.


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## Jason419 (Jan 2, 2012)

teK-- said:


> Not yet. Good idea though i will email him.


Do you happen to have a link to purchase this Flexishrink? I searched backwards through this topic twice but evidently can't find a link.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Jason419 said:


> Do you happen to have a link to purchase this Flexishrink? I searched backwards through this topic twice but evidently can't find a link.



Post #976.

It's sold under different names but if you search for braided heatshrink you should be able to find the same stuff somewhere local or online.


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## Jason419 (Jan 2, 2012)

teK-- said:


> Post #976.
> 
> It's sold under different names but if you search for braided heatshrink you should be able to find the same stuff somewhere local or online.


Thanks!


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Danzzz88 said:


> Have you shown that bottom pic to Steve and does he have any opinion or remedy for it? I'm sure he would be interested and would provide an update if he sees that.


Have shown Steve this info.

He thinks the egg shaped PVC might have something to do with the way the it is rolled up/packaged for shipping. It wasn't curling up like that during their testing, which I presume used the raw flat pvc sheeting before retail packaging.

In any case he recommended using the PVC sleeve with heatshrink on the spring (per the installation guide), and to lather it in Slickoleum.

I shared pics of the spring isolator they use in the Marz Z1 Coil:











Steve said they tested something similar early on but they didn't have much success, maybe due to the type of material they used. I'm guessing they 3D printed it, and the filament was too rigid?. They may or may not look at this option again in further development.

For now I'm going to keep using the Flexishrink and happy to share a longer term outcome.

One idea (not Steve's) worth trying is to soak the PVC in hot water until it softens, then install it and ensure it is pressed up flush against the stanchions. Once cooled it might retain its round shape better?


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

Why not just plastidip the inside of the stanchions? Peel it off when you go to sell


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

half_man_half_scab said:


> Why not just plastidip the inside of the stanchions? Peel it off when you go to sell


Do you mean spray Plasti-Dip down the tubes?


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

Yeah, maybe try with the spring on the damper side first, if you have a Zeb. Just in case it’s too thin. Add coats until it’s quiet enough for ya?


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

half_man_half_scab said:


> Why not just plastidip the inside of the stanchions? Peel it off when you go to sell


I haven't really worked with that stuff before, but it's an interesting idea.... anyone willing to be a guinea pig?

In theory a 1mm thick layer would be enough, if you use heatshrink on the spring as well.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

teK-- said:


> I haven't really worked with that stuff before, but it's an interesting idea.... anyone willing to be a guinea pig?
> 
> In theory a 1mm thick layer would be enough, if you use heatshrink on the spring as well.


I don’t think it would work as the paint isn’t very durable. The spring would rub it off and it would just create a huge mess.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

teK-- said:


> I haven't really worked with that stuff before, but it's an interesting idea.... anyone willing to be a guinea pig?
> 
> In theory a 1mm thick layer would be enough, if you use heatshrink on the spring as well.


Not me! I've used it on cars and it flakes off really easily. It seems like it would gunk up the inside of the stanchion but don't let me stop one of you guys from trying it.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Nat said:


> Not me! I've used it on cars and it flakes off really easily. It seems like it would gunk up the inside of the stanchion but don't let me stop one of you guys from trying it.


Thanks for saving us all a big cleanup haha.

The flexishrink stuff I used on the spring in my 36 lasted 6+ months and still in as-new condition when I removed it to transfer everything into the 38. Here's hoping it has a similar serivce life when used as a 3 layer system.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Just don't do what Marzocchi was doing a decade ago. Put the springs in a plastic bag that disintegrates and puts flakes throughout the whole damn fork!


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

Fair enough wrt gunk in the lowers. Could there be a way to stabilize the coil from within such that it couldn't rattle far from the axis of the Smashpot? Like, if you strategically slid o-rings at even intervals along the length of the assembly?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

half_man_half_scab said:


> Fair enough wrt gunk in the lowers. Could there be a way to stabilize the coil from within such that it couldn't rattle far from the axis of the Smashpot? Like, if you strategically slid o-rings at even intervals along the length of the assembly?


Smashpot already has some heat-shrink on the core assembly for that purpose. Perhaps a closer look at how much clearance you've got. It will vary depending on spring rate (heavier springs have thicker wire).


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Dougal said:


> Just don't do what Marzocchi was doing a decade ago. Put the springs in a plastic bag that disintegrates and puts flakes throughout the whole damn fork!


The first thing I do is tear down a fork before I ride it. I've learned that the fork will have not enough oil and too much assembly lube and I always cut the bag/wrap off the spring.


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## Steve10k (7 mo ago)

Is it fair to say that preferred rebound settings tend to be slower with a smashpot than with an air shock?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Steve10k said:


> Is it fair to say that preferred rebound settings tend to be slower with a smashpot than with an air shock?


Generally yes because air-springs hysteresis reduces the spring-rate on rebound. But it's not a huge effect and the same basic setting can work well for both spring types.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Generally yes because air-springs hysteresis reduces the spring-rate on rebound. But it's not a huge effect and the same basic setting can work well for both spring types.


Tend to agree with this. With the Smashpot I initially tried same rebound settings, but settled on one click slower HSR and one click slower LSR.


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## Steve10k (7 mo ago)

So first ride and we'll impressed, way more confidence inspiring and easier to ride smoother / faster, which @ 58 might not be a good thing but I loved it. Going coil in the rear made the otherwise impressive fox 38's feel a bit rough, well this fixed that and some. That said sag is where it should be but I only used up about 75% of the travel on a track where 90% was the norm, although I do hit some bigger drops/ jumps than I did today and once again first ride. Does that mean it will be even better if I go down a spring ?


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Steve10k said:


> So first ride and we'll impressed, way more confidence inspiring and easier to ride smoother / faster, which @ 58 might not be a good thing but I loved it. Going coil in the rear made the otherwise impressive fox 38's feel a bit rough, well this fixed that and some. That said sag is where it should be but I only used up about 75% of the travel on a track where 90% was the norm, although I do hit some bigger drops/ jumps than I did today and once again first ride. Does that mean it will be even better if I go down a spring ?


Leave the spring as is if it feels good. If you are already running 0 clicks HBO, you can try moving 2 to 3 shims in the HBO stack if you find it's too progressive near bottom out.


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## Steve10k (7 mo ago)

teK-- said:


> Tend to agree with this. With the Smashpot I initially tried same rebound settings, but settled on one click slower HSR and one click slower LSR.





teK-- said:


> Leave the spring as is if it feels good. If you are already running 0 clicks HBO, you can try moving 2 to 3 shims in the HBO stack if you find it's too progressive near bottom out.


Cheers, but if I not using all the travel, refer pic, would I not gain additional plushness off the top by switching out the 50 for a 45. I'm assuming the HBO wouldn't be coming into play if I'm not maxing out the travel. That said it did feel awesome smashing through some rock gardens yesterday.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Steve10k said:


> Cheers, but if I not using all the travel, refer pic, would I not gain additional plushness off the top by switching out the 50 for a 45. I'm assuming the HBO wouldn't be coming into play if I'm not maxing out the travel. That said it did feel awesome smashing through some rock gardens yesterday.


That looks to be a 170mm fork?

If so your oring is at about 155 travel.

I would not fuss about having 15mm in reserve if that much travel was used on a ride with several moderate to harder hits. As long as it feels good for you and is supportive I would not change the spring.

Yes a softer spring will mean it's more supple off the top, but it will also mean the front of the bike generally sits lower during the ride, thus steeping your head angle and more prone to want to pitch you over the bars. The front spring should always take into account the rear spring and feel balanced.


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## Steve10k (7 mo ago)

teK-- said:


> That looks to be a 170mm fork?
> 
> If so your oring is at about 155 travel.
> 
> ...


Thanks mate appreciate the feedback👍


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## naturaltalent (May 26, 2018)

Edit: posted in wrong thread


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

….


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## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

If the 50lbs/in spring produces a balanced feel so that the front matches nicely with the rear, no need to do changes. If on the other hand, the rear is softer, then going for a lighter spring is most likely a good idea.

Besides being able to use full travel more often, going for a softer spring also means, that the fork rides lower as well on top of being plusher.


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## Steve10k (7 mo ago)

Ok so had a few rides with the smashpot and well impressed however when I jumped on the bike today after a week there is a squeeking noise when the fork rebounds back when say bunny hopping for example that wasnt thee before. Fox 38's with sleeve inserted, smashpot installed by suspension specialists. Anyone else experienced this?


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## cykelk (May 4, 2014)

Got mine installed into the Lyrik on my Sentinel, really impressed with the kit quality and instructions, what an easy process that was. Grabbed a 45lb (starting point) and 50lb spring for my ~175lb kitted weight, 160mm travel. Looking forward to giving this a shot! Now I just have to wait out a hand fracture…



Steve10k said:


> Ok so had a few rides with the smashpot and well impressed however when I jumped on the bike today after a week there is a squeeking noise when the fork rebounds back when say bunny hopping for example that wasnt thee before. Fox 38's with sleeve inserted, smashpot installed by suspension specialists. Anyone else experienced this?


Just based on my observations installing and reading, I’d suspect you need some preload fine tuning. I’d pull the assembly and:

make sure nothing worked itself loose (e.g. seal head / inner tube, preload)
see if the shrink wrap moved down the spring
make sure there’s sufficient grease on the spring
Unfortunate if you’re not tooled up to do this, but you don’t need many tools and they’re a worthwhile investment. Alternatively maybe the shop that installed can check it out for you free or at least cheaply.


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## Hobine (Jun 16, 2004)

I’m the same weight as you, 175#. Got mine installed in a 2020 Fox 36 with a 50# spring. I’ve since ordered the 45# since I’m only getting about 120mm travel on a 150 fork. About 16% sag. Last ride I did with HBO, HSC and LSC all wide open just to see. That’s where I got about 120mm travel on a loop that typically uses most of the travel. Using Bel Ray 15 wt oil.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Hobine said:


> I’m the same weight as you, 175#. Got mine installed in a 2020 Fox 36 with a 50# spring. I’ve since ordered the 45# since I’m only getting about 120mm travel on a 150 fork. About 16% sag. Last ride I did with HBO, HSC and LSC all wide open just to see. That’s where I got about 120mm travel on a loop that typically uses most of the travel. Using Bel Ray 15 wt oil.


you could try modifying the hbo shimstack to make the adjuster range more useable for your weight. that way you keep the same off the top/midrang support but can use a bit more travel.


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## cykelk (May 4, 2014)

Hobine said:


> I’m the same weight as you, 175#. Got mine installed in a 2020 Fox 36 with a 50# spring. I’ve since ordered the 45# since I’m only getting about 120mm travel on a 150 fork. About 16% sag. Last ride I did with HBO, HSC and LSC all wide open just to see. That’s where I got about 120mm travel on a loop that typically uses most of the travel. Using Bel Ray 15 wt oil.


Thanks for sharing your numbers. What body position do you use to measure your sag? Only 16% surprises me. I hopped on mine to spot-check without any kit right after finishing the install and got in the 20-22% ballpark (160mm travel). I’ll check more properly tomorrow.


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## Hobine (Jun 16, 2004)

teK-- said:


> you could try modifying the hbo shimstack to make the adjuster range more useable for your weight. that way you keep the same off the top/midrang support but can use a bit more travel.


Forgot to mention, I already moved two shims to soften it up.


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## Hobine (Jun 16, 2004)

cykelk said:


> Thanks for sharing your numbers. What body position do you use to measure your sag? Only 16% surprises me. I hopped on mine to spot-check without any kit right after finishing the install and got in the 20-22% ballpark (160mm travel). I’ll check more properly tomorrow.


I agree, the 16% did surprise me. I use the “aggressive” riding position to measure sag, same as I did with the air spring. I didn’t want to get too hung up on the sag value, I care how it rides. If I’m being honest, it’s kinda harsh, I like my air spring with a Luftkappe better. 
Maybe I just got a 50# spring on the stiffer end of the tolerance. 
45# spring should be here next week. 

If anyone is interested, the fork went from 4.6# to 5.9#.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Hobine said:


> I agree, the 16% did surprise me. I use the “aggressive” riding position to measure sag, same as I did with the air spring. I didn’t want to get too hung up on the sag value, I care how it rides. If I’m being honest, it’s kinda harsh, I like my air spring with a Luftkappe better.
> Maybe I just got a 50# spring on the stiffer end of the tolerance.
> 45# spring should be here next week.
> 
> If anyone is interested, the fork went from 4.6# to 5.9#.


Sounds like lighter spring is way to go then.

Maybe you have a very slack head angle. That will require a softer spring.


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## cykelk (May 4, 2014)

Hobine said:


> I agree, the 16% did surprise me. I use the “aggressive” riding position to measure sag, same as I did with the air spring. I didn’t want to get too hung up on the sag value, I care how it rides. If I’m being honest, it’s kinda harsh, I like my air spring with a Luftkappe better.
> Maybe I just got a 50# spring on the stiffer end of the tolerance.
> 45# spring should be here next week.
> 
> If anyone is interested, the fork went from 4.6# to 5.9#.


Gotcha, I hope the 45# works for ya. Now feeling like I should have grabbed 40# instead of 50# as the backup 🫠

I did re-measure a few times yesterday, still with no kit (so 168# ish) and I’m consistently straddling 20% (32mm) sag normal methods, and about 36% (58mm) when I support my entire body weight on the bars. This is right about where I’d run my air spring, so I’m hopeful. 

~63.6 HA on the Sentinel


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## Buddha43 (Oct 10, 2011)

id be interested in picking up a 50 spring if you want to part with it?


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

Anyone ever thought of just going to a custom spring manufacturer and getting the exact spring they need? Such as like these for example? I don't know if you can request coil rate or if it's just wire thickness and basic dimensions mind but was just a thought I had...









Compression Spring Manufacturer & Custom Compression Spring Supplier | KENENG


KENENG is a compression spring manufacturer and supplier located in China. We have over 10 years of experience providing custom compression spring services.




www.kenenghardware.com


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Danzzz88 said:


> Anyone ever thought of just going to a custom spring manufacturer and getting the exact spring they need? Such as like these for example? I don't know if you can request coil rate or if it's just wire thickness and basic dimensions mind but was just a thought I had...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Minimum quantities requirement would probably be prohibitive.


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## Shane4130 (6 mo ago)

Hi guy's , I just got a bike with 170mm lyriks on front with a Vorsprung coil, the problem s there seems to be a dead spot (free play ) when I lift up , about 10 mm play I can see on the stanchions .Anyone else have this problem ? Cheers for any help


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Shane4130 said:


> Hi guy's , I just got a bike with 170mm lyriks on front with a Vorsprung coil, the problem s there seems to be a dead spot (free play ) when I lift up , about 10 mm play I can see on the stanchions .Anyone else have this problem ? Cheers for any help


Are you using the correct amount of travel spacers?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Danzzz88 said:


> Anyone ever thought of just going to a custom spring manufacturer and getting the exact spring they need? Such as like these for example? I don't know if you can request coil rate or if it's just wire thickness and basic dimensions mind but was just a thought I had...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What problem are you trying to solve? Vorsprung already has all the rates covered. Supply was low for a while but I think they're back in stock now.



Shane4130 said:


> Hi guy's , I just got a bike with 170mm lyriks on front with a Vorsprung coil, the problem s there seems to be a dead spot (free play ) when I lift up , about 10 mm play I can see on the stanchions .Anyone else have this problem ? Cheers for any help


There are 10mm spacers used to match spring preload to fork and cartridge length. You probably need an extra one.


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## Shane4130 (6 mo ago)

teK-- said:


> Are you using the correct amount of travel spacers?


No idea bought the forks second hand ,haven't pulled anything a part


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## trel (Aug 7, 2018)

Sounds like insufficient preload on the spring. 28mm flat face socket for the topcap. Might be worth removing the assembly and doing a fresh install.

Steve at Vorsprung is very helpful, if you run into any problems or missing parts flick him an email.

Vorsprung Smashpot Install Manual - Fox and Rockshox - Rev E

Smashpot Spring Calculator


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## cykelk (May 4, 2014)

Got the first ride on my converted Lyrik yesterday. Still have to keep sharp impacts off my hand so speeds in-check, but initial impressions are good. The beginning stroke difference was obvious everywhere, climbing over root clusters and cornering traction really stood out. Didn’t feel like I had any additional trouble getting the bike airborne when I wanted to (which wasn’t much on this ride).

Over a 12-mile 1900 ft mix of flow and and rooty descents of PNW “blue” difficulty I used 110mm of my 160 available, which feels about right and if I understand correctly suggests I never meaningfully engaged the HBO circuit. Can’t wait to be able to push it harder.



Buddha43 said:


> id be interested in picking up a 50 spring if you want to part with it?


Shoot me a PM if you’re still interested, chances are I’ll stick with the 45.


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## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

have you guys noticed the weight difference around pedalling mostly?


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## inonjoey (Jul 19, 2011)

onawave said:


> have you guys noticed the weight difference around pedalling mostly?


Anyone that says they noticed the weight difference likely wouldn’t notice it at all in a blind comparison. All else being equal, the weight is not noticeable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

onawave said:


> have you guys noticed the weight difference around pedalling mostly?


Nope.


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

I definitely say I notice the weight trying to lift the front wheel up..it definitely takes more effort to pop and place the front wheen where you want but that could also be because of the increase in how much the fork is planted.i guess also it depends how much other heavy stuff on the bike you have and it all adds up incrementally...you can definitely notice a big affect on pedalling adding coil front and rear, heavy tyres etc...one individual part you may feel you don't notice but usually those that add a smashpot are adding burly components elsewhere too and you can definitely feel the weight increase of the overall bike. An air shocked trail tyred 11 speed bike feels a lot lighter and more zippy than a fully coiled enduro tyred 12 speed bike. It all adds up...

I've got an sb165, super lightweight 1300 gram 27.5 wheelset, light components generally everywhere else, snakeskin Schwalbes...but the PUSH 11.6 rear, Smashpotted ZEB, SLX 12 speed cassette, dropper, inserts, fairly heavy comfortable saddle really adds up and the bike feels like a tank...it's probably heavy than some air shocked DH bikes. A fully coiled 29er with regular alloy wheelset and double downs or dh casings I'd imagine would be approaching 40lbs...a light weight build trail tyred air shocked 27.5 could be built sub 30lbs with the same travel.


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

Danzzz88 said:


> I definitely say I notice the weight trying to lift the front wheel up..it definitely takes more effort to pop and place the front wheen where you want but that could also be because of the increase in how much the fork is planted.i guess also it depends how much other heavy stuff on the bike you have and it all adds up incrementally...you can definitely notice a big affect on pedalling adding coil front and rear, heavy tyres etc...one individual part you may feel you don't notice but usually those that add a smashpot are adding burly components elsewhere too and you can definitely feel the weight increase of the overall bike. An air shocked trail tyred 11 speed bike feels a lot lighter and more zippy than a fully coiled enduro tyred 12 speed bike. It all adds up...
> 
> I've got an sb165, super lightweight 1300 gram 27.5 wheelset, light components generally everywhere else, snakeskin Schwalbes...but the PUSH 11.6 rear, Smashpotted ZEB, SLX 12 speed cassette, dropper, inserts, fairly heavy comfortable saddle really adds up and the bike feels like a tank...it's probably heavy than some air shocked DH bikes. A fully coiled 29er with regular alloy wheelset and double downs or dh casings I'd imagine would be approaching 40lbs...a light weight build trail tyred air shocked 27.5 could be built sub 30lbs with the same travel.


Snakeskins on such big bike?! I punctured them on xc bike just looking at them wrong. 

I found the weight penalty from smashpot to be negligible and forgot about it in one ride. But I weight 85kg, so someone much lighter could feel it more. 

Overall, proper tires (like DD/DH maxgrips) have much bigger impact on the bike feeling sluggish than smashpot, or going to coil shock (that said shock/rear end can be very dependent on setup but that is true for both coil and air).


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

I don't have problems with snakeskin but I don't ride anything sharp most of the time...only roots, stones, mud, gravel etc...I had more problems with exo on my last bike.

Yes Smashpot in itself is only adding a bit extra weight but usually if you buy a Smashpot you are running coil rear shock and heavy tyres also..a lot of small weight increases add up to a big weight increase is what I mean.


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

Danzzz88 said:


> Yes Smashpot in itself is only adding a bit extra weight but usually if you buy a Smashpot you are running coil rear shock and heavy tyres also..a lot of small weight increases add up to a big weight increase is what I mean.


Not contesting any of that, but the weight should also be thought in isolation, especially for those thinking about upgrading to it. 

Yes, if rest of your bike is heavy, it won’t make it lighter, but it won’t also make your bike “too heavy” by itself. I would say it’s something most people wouldn’t notice unless they bolt it on <12kg bike, and even then…


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## cykelk (May 4, 2014)

onawave said:


> have you guys noticed the weight difference around pedalling mostly?


Nope, in fact I'd venture to say climbing felt better due to how much more readily the front wheel tracked terrain. Less body english required and/or less impact to manage up through the arms. YMMV depending on terrain of course, might not have the same answer if I climbed gravel roads. I really didn't expect this difference to be as pronounced as it was.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

onawave said:


> have you guys noticed the weight difference around pedalling mostly?


I've had a smashpot in an Onyx, a 36, a 38 and a Lyrik. I noticed the etra weight only when it went into the 38. Must have passed the tipping point with that one. From memory it was nearing 3kg and was quite noticeable riding.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

springs said:


> I've had a smashpot in an Onyx, a 36, a 38 and a Lyrik. I noticed the etra weight only when it went into the 38. Must have passed the tipping point with that one. From memory it was nearing 3kg and was quite noticeable riding.


Interesting you say that. I had a smahspot A 36 and then got a 38 and moved the smashpot across. Weight difference as weighed only 80g. The inner air sleeve on the 38 weighs a fair bit and the stanchions are double butted.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

teK-- said:


> Interesting you say that. I had a smahspot A 36 and then got a 38 and moved the smashpot across. Weight difference as weighed only 80g. The inner air sleeve on the 38 weighs a fair bit and the stanchions are double butted.


There's 200gms difference between a 36 and a 38 (2.4 and 2.2kg from my records) plus the nearly 0.5kg of smashpot goodness for the 38. I found where I had written it down and the 38 was 2.88kg! Don't know how you have ended up with only 80gms difference.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

springs said:


> There's 200gms difference between a 36 and a 38 (2.4 and 2.2kg from my records) plus the nearly 0.5kg of smashpot goodness for the 38. I found where I had written it down and the 38 was 2.88kg! Don't know how you have ended up with only 80gms difference.


Just to clarify;

I had a 36 which had a smashpot fitted.

When I bought the 38 I weighed all the parts I removed (air spring, air tube, clips, top cap etc) These weighed just under 200g.

I then added the weight of the complete smashpot assembly (270g), the 10ml extra oil (120ml in total, compared to 110 in the 36).

I didn't run the PVC sleeve which was around 65g.

Hence the difference on paper was about 80g. 

On the scales it was very close.


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## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

I don’t get how riders so in-tune with their bike feel that they modify suspension “don’t notice the weight”. It is absolutely noticeable to me and I’m not even that great with feeling changes. Worth the weight increase? Yes, due to the riding I do.


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## onawave (Jan 4, 2019)

jasonp22 said:


> I don’t get how riders so in-tune with their bike feel that they modify suspension “don’t notice the weight”. It is absolutely noticeable to me and I’m not even that great with feeling changes. Worth the weight increase? Yes, due to the riding I do.


what kind of riding do you do?


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## Danzzz88 (Jun 10, 2020)

I can definitely notice 0.5kg mass added to the bike..it may not seem like much on paper but you can feel it. I mean even 3 or 4kg doesn't sound like much when you have an 80kg rider but go ride a 14kg bike and a 10kg and tell me there isn't a huge difference in feel.

The Smashpot is noticeable weight but as said it is worth it since it performs so much better than air in most situations.

I think it is more noticeable when you are going from something like an air 36 or Lyrik to a Smashpotted 38....that's a fair bit of extra weight on the front of the bike that is usually very light relative to the back end. If the weight was in the middle of the bike it wouldn't be quite as noticeable. I guess it depends how much you like to pick up and place the front wheel...compared to a lighter air fork that inherently is more poppy aswell the heavier coil sprung front end feels much more sucked down to the ground. If a planted feel is not what you are after then the Smashpot isn't for you, especially o these longer and slacker bikes that are already harder to do that on anyway.


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## saucerboy (Feb 10, 2012)

What's the tl;dr consensus on the cause and correction, if there is one, when we never seem to get deep in the HBO? I actually have read the entire thread over the course of a few weeks but maybe I've lost the forest for the trees.

Full details: I have a 160mm Ohlins rxf36 m.2. I'm about 86kg/190lb ready to ride. 81kg/179lb fresh out of the shower this morning. Currently running the 45lb spring. Riding my local trails (varying from very steep and technical to reasonably steep and fast with drops and jumps) as well as the bike park (including 4-6ft drops) I have yet to get into the last 30-40mm of travel even with the HBO in the least resistant setting. I've also ridden the 50 and 55lb springs, each of which keeps me correspondingly higher in the travel.

Prior to the Ohlins, I ran a 2022 Fox 26 Grip2 with the Push ACS3 kit. I did not get along with that fork. Regardless of settings and spring rate, it felt awful in chattery braking bumps and fast rough sections. Using the recommended settings and spring rate (50lb) my vision bounced and holding onto the bar at all was a challenge. I had to slow my pace way down from how I'd usually ride to feel like I was in control. It worked best for me with the low and high speed compression both at max damping and the 55lb spring. Riding my local trails with the pneumatic bottom out in the middle of the range, and the 55lb spring, I would find my o-ring at the top of the stanchion reasonably often. To be clear, my issue was with the 36, not the Push kit. I had the ACS3 in an older, RC2, Fox 36 on another bike and was really happy with it.

The smashpot feels good on the whole, but I can't shake the feeling something is not quite right given the difference between the two forks both with coils. Maybe the Ohlins actually having damping is the difference? Maybe I screwed up the installation?


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

saucerboy said:


> What's the tl;dr consensus on the cause and correction, if there is one, when we never seem to get deep in the HBO? I actually have read the entire thread over the course of a few weeks but maybe I've lost the forest for the trees.
> 
> Full details: I have a 160mm Ohlins rxf36 m.2. I'm about 86kg/190lb ready to ride. 81kg/179lb fresh out of the shower this morning. Currently running the 45lb spring. Riding my local trails (varying from very steep and technical to reasonably steep and fast with drops and jumps) as well as the bike park (including 4-6ft drops) I have yet to get into the last 30-40mm of travel even with the HBO in the least resistant setting. I've also ridden the 50 and 55lb springs, each of which keeps me correspondingly higher in the travel.
> 
> ...


The Ohlins is more damped than the Fox.

If you need to soften the HBO/improve its useable range, suggest moving 2 shims initially, and if still not enough, move a third.

Before you change anything, check the heatshrink over the inner tube hasn't slid down and blocked the HBO ports. That has the effect of pretty much maxxing out your HBO resistance setting.


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## saucerboy (Feb 10, 2012)

teK-- said:


> The Ohlins is more damped than the Fox.
> 
> If you need to soften the HBO/improve its useable range, suggest moving 2 shims initially, and if still not enough, move a third.
> 
> Before you change anything, check the heatshrink over the inner tube hasn't slid down and blocked the HBO ports. That has the effect of pretty much maxxing out your HBO resistance setting.


Thanks. I was hoping to not have to remove everything again but so it goes. I feel like my weight is middle of the road enough that I'm surprised the default shim stack doesn't cover it.

Regarding the heatshrink covering the HBO ports, I thought Steve said that wouldn't cause it to max out in his reply here. Or am I misunderstanding what you're referring to?



Steve VS said:


> ...We have tested it even fully overlapping the holes, the oil pressure blows the heat shrink back away from the holes so it definitely is not what you were describing. What it does instead if that is the case is prevent the HBO from refilling properly and basically renders it useless - it does the exact opposite of what you describe in terms of progression...


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Yeah saw that post from Steve. That might be the case in theory but it's the opposite of what I experienced when my heatshrink slid down


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

teK-- said:


> Yeah saw that post from Steve. That might be the case in theory but it's the opposite of what I experienced when my heatshrink slid down


Sounds like Steve actually tested it so isn't it more reality than theory?

Was this in a Zeb or 38? Could have been that plastic sleeve if it's either of those forks. If that slips into the fork it reduces your available travel hugely.


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

saucerboy said:


> Thanks. I was hoping to not have to remove everything again but so it goes. I feel like my weight is middle of the road enough that I'm surprised the default shim stack doesn't cover it.
> 
> Regarding the heatshrink covering the HBO ports, I thought Steve said that wouldn't cause it to max out in his reply here. Or am I misunderstanding what you're referring to?


Do you have enough weight on the front? I’m same weight as you and used 50lb for a long time and still was not using all the travel. After I dropped my handlebars much lower to properly weight the front, I had to switch to 55lb spring and still am using all the travel regularly. 
But I do have one HBO shim less than stock and use much lighter oil at the moment (7.5w or 10w instead of 20w) but the dial is maxed at full bottom-out resistance.


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## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

Oil viscosity has little to do with the HBO function. Shims are pressure-sensitive. Oil viscosity has a bigger effect on orifices and similar more simple structures.


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## akantus178 (Mar 20, 2018)

Jukka4130 said:


> Oil viscosity has little to do with the HBO function. Shims are pressure-sensitive. Oil viscosity has a bigger effect on orifices and similar more simple structures.


While that is true, would be surprised if it didn’t make a difference. The recommended stock fox gold is almost like honey  
But I did not do back to back testing with only the oil change so it can be that it has less of an effect than I believe.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

springs said:


> Sounds like Steve actually tested it so isn't it more reality than theory?
> 
> Was this in a Zeb or 38? Could have been that plastic sleeve if it's either of those forks. If that slips into the fork it reduces your available travel hugely.


It was in a 36. 

Went on a week long bike trip and the fork would hit a wall at about 80% travel. When I got home pulled fork apart and heatshrink had slipped all the way down 

Once replaced with neq heatshrink and reassembled the fork felt normal again.


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## saucerboy (Feb 10, 2012)

akantus178 said:


> Do you have enough weight on the front? I’m same weight as you and used 50lb for a long time and still was not using all the travel. After I dropped my handlebars much lower to properly weight the front, I had to switch to 55lb spring and still am using all the travel regularly.
> But I do have one HBO shim less than stock and use much lighter oil at the moment (7.5w or 10w instead of 20w) but the dial is maxed at full bottom-out resistance.


I dropped my bars a little while back which did make a difference in keeping weight on the front in corners. I didn't notice any big change in how much travel I used. Interesting to hear that made such a big difference for you. Maybe I'll push them down a bit more. I'm in my bike's slack setting at 63.5 and might switch back to 64.5 to keep weight on the front more easily.

I'm using the maxima 20wt fork oil. Both the 50 and 55lb springs ride well. I only tried the 45 because I was never using all the travel. I'd say it feels a little out of balance with the shock. The stiffer springs felt more in balance with the back of the bike.

@teK-- I'll pull the smashpot out again and see if the heatshink is covering the ports. Can't hurt to check and might help.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

saucerboy said:


> I dropped my bars a little while back which did make a difference in keeping weight on the front in corners. I didn't notice any big change in how much travel I used. Interesting to hear that made such a big difference for you. Maybe I'll push them down a bit more. I'm in my bike's slack setting at 63.5 and might switch back to 64.5 to keep weight on the front more easily.
> 
> I'm using the maxima 20wt fork oil. Both the 50 and 55lb springs ride well. I only tried the 45 because I was never using all the travel. I'd say it feels a little out of balance with the shock. The stiffer springs felt more in balance with the back of the bike.
> 
> @teK-- I'll pull the smashpot out again and see if the heatshink is covering the ports. Can't hurt to check and might help.


Aside from the minor weight distribution difference from running a different head angle and bar height, slacker head angle generally requires lesser spring rate because the attack angle of the fork causes more bushing bind. e.g. running a 63.5 vs a 64.5 degree head angle could mean the difference of running a 50 or a 55lb spring to get the desired feel.


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## tootalltim (5 mo ago)

teK-- said:


> Aside from the minor weight distribution difference from running a different head angle and bar height, slacker head angle generally requires lesser spring rate because the attack angle of the fork causes more bushing bind. e.g. running a 63.5 vs a 64.5 degree head angle could mean the difference of running a 50 or a 55lb spring to get the desired feel.


I'd never really thought about head angle affecting spring rate before. I got my smashpot originally for a 65.5º HA frame, and have since got a Geometron, which is ludicrously slack. While the 45lbs spring feels great and supportive (I'm 77kg, 180mm fork) I've left the HBO open and only occasionally notice I've used full travel. I wonder if I should be switching to a 40lbs spring for such an extreme head angle...


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## saucerboy (Feb 10, 2012)

teK-- said:


> The Ohlins is more damped than the Fox.
> 
> If you need to soften the HBO/improve its useable range, suggest moving 2 shims initially, and if still not enough, move a third.
> 
> Before you change anything, check the heatshrink over the inner tube hasn't slid down and blocked the HBO ports. That has the effect of pretty much maxxing out your HBO resistance setting.


Pulled the kit out tonight and the ports were not blocked. I moved two shims to lighten the resistance. I changed the oil which was surprisingly dirty to me given it's only been in there a couple months but maybe that's normal. It has seena decent amount of mileage.

Putting it back together now and I've hit a stumbling block that has me stumped. I'm tightening the footnuts. On the damper side everything works normal. On the spring side, it tightens a bit and then just spins without tightening more. I can't get it to the 10nm torque spec.

I've pulled the kit out again and basically dissembled and reassembled it, put it back in, and it's still doing the same thing. When it's out of the fork, if I rotate the footstud the entire outer tube assembly rotates. If I screw the footnuts on it tightens a bit but then the outer tube assembly starts rotating and the footnut stops tightening.

I feel like I must be missing something basic. Anyone encounted this or have an idea? Installation went smoothly the first time a couple months ago.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

What if you cinch it down while compressing the fork at the same time?


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## saucerboy (Feb 10, 2012)

half_man_half_scab said:


> What if you cinch it down while compressing the fork at the same time?


Tried that, same issue ☹it's a good idea though.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

saucerboy said:


> Pulled the kit out tonight and the ports were not blocked. I moved two shims to lighten the resistance. I changed the oil which was surprisingly dirty to me given it's only been in there a couple months but maybe that's normal. It has seena decent amount of mileage.
> 
> Putting it back together now and I've hit a stumbling block that has me stumped. I'm tightening the footnuts. On the damper side everything works normal. On the spring side, it tightens a bit and then just spins without tightening more. I can't get it to the 10nm torque spec.
> 
> ...


If you are confident it's installed correctly fit it back into the bike and do a few endo's. That should compress everything nicely and enable you to get to the required torque.


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## saucerboy (Feb 10, 2012)

half_man_half_scab said:


> What if you cinch it down while compressing the fork at the same time?


Tried that, same issue ☹it's a good idea though.


springs said:


> If you are confident it's installed correctly fit it back into the bike and do a few endo's. That should compress everything nicely and enable you to get to the required torque.


Thanks for the suggestion. I took a break, cursed out of a bit, and when I came back and tried it again I was able to get it to the right torque. I'm still not entirely sure with the issue is but seems to be sorted out. Thanks for the help all.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

saucerboy said:


> Pulled the kit out tonight and the ports were not blocked. I moved two shims to lighten the resistance. I changed the oil which was surprisingly dirty to me given it's only been in there a couple months but maybe that's normal. It has seena decent amount of mileage.
> 
> Putting it back together now and I've hit a stumbling block that has me stumped. I'm tightening the footnuts. On the damper side everything works normal. On the spring side, it tightens a bit and then just spins without tightening more. I can't get it to the 10nm torque spec.
> 
> ...


I


half_man_half_scab said:


> What if you cinch it down while compressing the fork at the same time?


This. When the bike is upside down push down hard on the lowers so the end of the foofstud can grip against the lowers. Also when you tighten the last part you need to turn quickly in a small but sharp motion (think how an impact wrench works). 10nm sounds high i do both sides to 6nm


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## Taco Suave (Dec 17, 2020)

I’ve had the opposite issue when taking it apart. After torquing the nut down to the correct torque and using it, I went to take it apart and the crush washer was grabbing the thread sticking out and causing the whole assembly to spin. I had to use a little heat and that worked for getting it off. Very frustrating though, makes me not want to take it apart again hah


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## jasonp22 (Oct 5, 2016)

onawave said:


> what kind of riding do you do?


For the bike I specifically have the Smashpot on - winch and plummet. It's my enduro (race) bike.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

saucerboy said:


> Pulled the kit out tonight and the ports were not blocked. I moved two shims to lighten the resistance. I changed the oil which was surprisingly dirty to me given it's only been in there a couple months but maybe that's normal. It has seena decent amount of mileage.
> 
> Putting it back together now and I've hit a stumbling block that has me stumped. I'm tightening the footnuts. On the damper side everything works normal. On the spring side, it tightens a bit and then just spins without tightening more. I can't get it to the 10nm torque spec.
> 
> ...


RS service video I watched said to grease that bolt before tightening it. Ever since, I've not had a problem with the damper/dummy/air rod spinning.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

Jayem said:


> RS service video I watched said to grease that bolt before tightening it. Ever since, I've not had a problem with the damper/dummy/air rod spinning.


Nice tip

It might explain why sometimes I have this issue and not others (residual oil on the footstud perhaps?)


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## skyno (Jan 9, 2012)

Hi question about the Smashpot Coil Conversion. I purchased a bike where the previous owner installed one on a Marzocchi Bomber fork and I have been loving it and riding the sh!t out of it. Admittedly I have not done any service and it is almost certainly overdue for service. It actually still rides pretty damn good, but it is starting to develop a bit of play at the top of the travel where it feels like the first little bit of travel is basically just free play with no suspension at all before it starts giving resistance whereas before it felt like I was getting a small amount of resistance right away.

Any idea what might be causing this? Is it likely something has come loose or is this a common issue when overdue for service? Also, on the topic of servicing these, is it a pretty simple DIY job for a competent home mechanic or is it better left to a pro? 

Thanks for any insight!


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## tootalltim (5 mo ago)

skyno said:


> Hi question about the Smashpot Coil Conversion. I purchased a bike where the previous owner installed one on a Marzocchi Bomber fork and I have been loving it and riding the sh!t out of it. Admittedly I have not done any service and it is almost certainly overdue for service. It actually still rides pretty damn good, but it is starting to develop a bit of play at the top of the travel where it feels like the first little bit of travel is basically just free play with no suspension at all before it starts giving resistance whereas before it felt like I was getting a small amount of resistance right away.
> 
> Any idea what might be causing this? Is it likely something has come loose or is this a common issue when overdue for service? Also, on the topic of servicing these, is it a pretty simple DIY job for a competent home mechanic or is it better left to a pro?
> 
> Thanks for any insight!


They're super simple pieces of kit, once you get them out. If you can use a spanner and you're not hamfisted, you won't have a problem


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## skyno (Jan 9, 2012)

tootalltim said:


> They're super simple pieces of kit, once you get them out. If you can use a spanner and you're not hamfisted, you won't have a problem


Thanks for the info. Any idea if this play at the top of the travel is an indication that it just needs service? Thanks!


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## tootalltim (5 mo ago)

skyno said:


> Thanks for the info. Any idea if this play at the top of the travel is an indication that it just needs service? Thanks!


I couldn't tell you, tbh. I've only ever had to remove mine once to change the travel. It could be the preload not being set right, it could be your lowers bushes worn out, it could be a lack of lubrication. As with all suspension, it's worth servicing it if something has noticeably changed


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## skyno (Jan 9, 2012)

tootalltim said:


> I couldn't tell you, tbh. I've only ever had to remove mine once to change the travel. It could be the preload not being set right, it could be your lowers bushes worn out, it could be a lack of lubrication. As with all suspension, it's worth servicing it if something has noticeably changed


Thank you very much for the response. The preload thing does makes sense and while I have not intentionally adjusted the preload recently, I could see where maybe it could get inadvertently changed. I'll check it out


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

skyno said:


> Thank you very much for the response. The preload thing does makes sense and while I have not intentionally adjusted the preload recently, I could see where maybe it could get inadvertently changed. I'll check it out


Either the preload was not set sufficiently and/or the spring has sagged slightly, thus now requiring more preload to take up the slack. Either way very easy to fix just follow their excellent installation manual!


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

Does anybody know if the black heat shrink tubing on the shaft is necessary? I swapped springs recently and later realized that the heat shrink stayed inside the old spring when I removed it. Been riding without it for a few rides.


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## tootalltim (5 mo ago)

I mean, there's probably a reason why they suggest it being there, so...


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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

tootalltim said:


> I mean, there's probably a reason why they suggest it being there, so...


Not sure if I can just reinstall it and hit it with the heat gun to keep it in place this time. Not sure how it loosened up this much.


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

BIke N Gear said:


> Not sure if I can just reinstall it and hit it with the heat gun to keep it in place this time. Not sure how it loosened up this much.


Just replace it with a new piece. Over time it must react with the oil and become loose.


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

Ended up taking my ‘pot out of my Zeb. Coil rub on the PVC liner, enough that there was a chunk of liner that came out with the oil when I pulled the liner out. Fresh oil and a second layer of wrap over the spring and I put it back in. Several rides later a intermittent top out noise started, very loud and caused me to stop and check the fork. First ride of riding vacation 14 hours from home and it sounded like I broke it. Took it to a couple shops, nobody had time to look at it and nobody had a air spring to try to put in it. But the bullet and bought a new damn fork so I could finish my trip! Got home, pulled the fork apart and the top cap assembly was no longer connected to the rest of the unit! I threw the stock air spring back in and crossed my fingers that it held air, it did (and it still does)! Stupid thing is sitting in a box in my basement.

The one in my Lyrik is still perfect. I don’t get it…


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## teK-- (Dec 3, 2011)

yzedf said:


> Ended up taking my ‘pot out of my Zeb. Coil rub on the PVC liner, enough that there was a chunk of liner that came out with the oil when I pulled the liner out. Fresh oil and a second layer of wrap over the spring and I put it back in. Several rides later a intermittent top out noise started, very loud and caused me to stop and check the fork. First ride of riding vacation 14 hours from home and it sounded like I broke it. Took it to a couple shops, nobody had time to look at it and nobody had a air spring to try to put in it. But the bullet and bought a new damn fork so I could finish my trip! Got home, pulled the fork apart and the top cap assembly was no longer connected to the rest of the unit! I threw the stock air spring back in and crossed my fingers that it held air, it did (and it still does)! Stupid thing is sitting in a box in my basement.
> 
> The one in my Lyrik is still perfect. I don’t get it…


I can only assume the locking collar on the rod was not tightened against the topcap, thus allowing it to come loose.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

BIke N Gear said:


> Does anybody know if the black heat shrink tubing on the shaft is necessary? I swapped springs recently and later realized that the heat shrink stayed inside the old spring when I removed it. Been riding without it for a few rides.


I removed the heat shrink from my Ribbons spring. I have no noise and the fork is more active.


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

teK-- said:


> I can only assume the locking collar on the rod was not tightened against the topcap, thus allowing it to come loose.


Nope


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## tootalltim (5 mo ago)

Got hold of some Supergliss, so would like to drain the oil that's in there and replace. It doesn't need a full lower service, as I did new foam rings in the last 10hrs of riding when I changed the travel. What's stopping me from just flipping the bike upside down, and undoing the top cap to drain the oil? I know there will be a little residual clinging to the walls, but my thinking is this saves any chance of damaging footnuts and will take less time

Thoughts?


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

Anyone heard if a Smashpot kit for the Era is in the works?


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## nhodge (Jul 6, 2004)

Apparently not


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## Jason419 (Jan 2, 2012)

Crossmaxx said:


> Anyone heard if a Smashpot kit for the Era is in the works?


Post #919 in the EXT Era Fork thread, someone installed a smashpot in their Era.


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## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

Smashpot is now available also for Öhlins RFX 38.


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

Pro tip: if you don’t have a heat gun for the heat shrink, gas stovetop works just fine 😊. Just be careful!


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

Mine came without a spring perch. I found one in my parts bin from an old domain or totem, the size is pretty close…is that good enough for now?


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## tootalltim (5 mo ago)

Wanna risk it? I sure wouldn't.
Drop Steve an email and ask to buy the correct part. Unless you've got great dental insurance...


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## tootalltim (5 mo ago)

dwyooaj said:


> Pro tip: if you don’t have a heat gun for the heat shrink, gas stovetop works just fine 😊. Just be careful!


An oven on a low heat is even better, as it applies heat evenly and simultaneously to all sides.


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

tootalltim said:


> Wanna risk it? I sure wouldn't.
> Drop Steve an email and ask to buy the correct part. Unless you've got great dental insurance...


Well of course I’ll order the right one but I can’t believe this would make anything break, the central hole pits perfectly on the spring collar shaft and the ridge around the hole fits well inside the spring, maybe just a hair loose but it does not move around when preloaded. To be clear I’m referring to the thin plastic circle with a raised ridge around the central hole, that goes between the metal spring collar and the spring. I have the proper metal spring collar that the top cap threads into.


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

tootalltim said:


> An oven on a low heat is even better, as it applies heat evenly and simultaneously to all sides.


So did the stovetop if you keep rotating it


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

Got my Yari put together with vorsprung smashpot at 170 mm. It is crazy how smooth the chassis is, especially considering I scored it new for $239. Made me realize just how much stiction my previous mrp ribbon has. When sliding the lowers back on very little resistance. Maybe I lucked out and got one with good bushing tolerances. No trail time yet but rode it to work on the street and feels like the small bump sensitivity is very good. I did the MoCo mod where I added a .2mm (I think…2 soda can thicknesses😊)spacer to the poppet valve. Seems to blow off now if I have it locked out and hit a curb fast, and with the lsc in mid range small bump is still good and it seemed to soak up med sharp-edged stuff I found on the street without spiking while resisting brake dive 👍🏻. Hope for trail test soon, lots of rain in Cali…
I ordered it with a 50# spring. I prefer setup on the soft side esp. when there’s adjustable bottom out control like MRP or Smashpot. I weigh 215 and that puts me in 50# for plush setup according to vorsprungs chart. With the ribbon their firm spring (55#) was too firm and their med (47#) was a tad soft so I ran the med with 5 turns of preload which seemed right so figured 50# was perfect. But I wonder if Its too soft and I should go 55 and I was fooled by the ribbons stiction into thinking I needed a softer spring- or maybe I’m not used to such a supple fork. Here are the stats what dyall think;
170 mm travel 50# spring with lsc wide open and bottom out wide open:
Static sag 18%
Attack position sag: 29%
Rolling off curb: 64%
Bouncing in street as hard as I can: 75%
Bouncing in street as hard as I can with lsc turned in 6 clicks: 65%
All sound about right? Similar numbers to the ribbon with med spring, except the sags were a little bit lower on the ribbon
(Bike is a 2018 banshee rune with a dvo topaz, sometimes xfusion vector coil but the bikes leverage curve is better with air )


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

I used one of my wife’s tiny candles 😆


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## tootalltim (5 mo ago)

dwyooaj said:


> Here are the stats what dyall think;


If your normal riding terrain is just bouncing up and down outside and riding off curbs, sounds good...

Honestly, no idea. That's entirely up to you. Personally I think measuring sag is completely pointless, it's just the by-product number that comes from setting up your suspension properly, and you should do this using natural frequency and bracketing on the trails you ride. If it feels right, it probably is.


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## dwyooaj (Dec 14, 2006)

tootalltim said:


> If your normal riding terrain is just bouncing up and down outside and riding off curbs, sounds good...
> 
> Honestly, no idea. That's entirely up to you. Personally I think measuring sag is completely pointless, it's just the by-product number that comes from setting up your suspension properly, and you should do this using natural frequency and bracketing on the trails you ride. If it feels right, it probably is.


 Considering my local trails are closed for the foreseeable future from all the rain, I don’t have much of a choice at the moment. The things I mentioned can be a way to determine if a spring rate is pretty close before hitting the trails, I guess I’m a little thrown off because the 50# smashpot spring in the yari feels equal to or softer than the 47# spring in the mrp ribbon. Could be the smoother running chassis.
How precise are vorsprungs’ spring rates😊


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## tootalltim (5 mo ago)

dwyooaj said:


> the 50# smashpot spring in the yari *feels* equal to or softer than the 47# spring in the mrp ribbon.


This is how natural frequency tuning works, you go by feel. The actual number itself is irrelevant, aside from knowing if you need to go up or down a spring rate. Change the in lbs number to alphabetical A, B, C, D, etc. and you'll see what I mean. According to all the guides, I should be on a 45lbs spring, but I swapped to a 40 because it felt a bit too rough for me.



dwyooaj said:


> How precise are vorsprungs’ spring rates😊


You've answered your own question, if one manufacturer's 50 feels like another's 47, then someone is wrong. Ignore the number, go by feel, the problem goes away.


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