# What About The Doctahawk?



## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I am curious what the frame building community thinks about the new Chromag Doctahawk. I like a long, slack hardtail, but crap, this bike is slack!


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

I'm sure is has a space, I just don't know where that space is.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

I’m either not ready, not worthy, or both. Regardless, I’m intrigued.
=sParty


----------



## fuzz_muffin (Dec 24, 2017)

Build one and see if you like it.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

It seems to me that you'd hit stuff with the front wheel and not even notice it, then get bucked off the bike when the rear wheel encountered the obstacle. 

I mean, hardtails only make sense to make so slack, because no matter how stable you make the steering, the rear end is going to get thrown around like crazy anyway in rough stuff and make all that steering trail pointless. 

But people love them their slack bikes, so I'm sure they'll sell a ton. Then Pole will come out with a 55 degree HTA/90 STA model or something.

-W


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Walt said:


> It seems to me that you'd hit stuff with the front wheel and not even notice it, then get bucked off the bike when the rear wheel encountered the obstacle.
> 
> I mean, hardtails only make sense to make so slack, because no matter how stable you make the steering, the rear end is going to get thrown around like crazy anyway in rough stuff and make all that steering trail pointless.
> 
> ...


With pre-curved, backwards arcing Fox 40 fork, in order to deal with the inevitable flex.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Walt said:


> It seems to me that you'd hit stuff with the front wheel and not even notice it, then get bucked off the bike when the rear wheel encountered the obstacle.
> 
> I mean, hardtails only make sense to make so slack, because no matter how stable you make the steering, the rear end is going to get thrown around like crazy anyway in rough stuff and make all that steering trail pointless.
> 
> ...


B..b..but if it doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter, right?
=sParty


----------



## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

It's really interesting! I look forward to seeing its influence in the future.

-it's weird that production frames have gone beyond the extreme geometry i've explored.
-i lack the skills to go fast enough to make use of such a long front end on a hardtail
-i lack the skills/taste to enjoy riding terrain where such a long front end is mostly beneficial
-there's not a lot of terrain where that sort of geometry is definitely better, rather than a very strange compromise
-i'm glad that such a bike is in production; now people can form their own opinions rather than worshiping the 'long bike evangelists'
-i think the dropper post they used in your photo is hilarious
-unless i got a new body, i doubt i could be comfortable on that bike for my typical rides
-i think it's well executed


Realtalk- when i'm taking the burly hardtail out i'm looking for a specific experience. I don't wanna set KOMs or hit new features. I want to feel safe and comfortable on the bike, and challenged by the terrain. At the point that this frame's strengths are worth consideration... I'd be much happier riding FS.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

All new from Waltworks!! The DIY-doctahawk kit!

You'll need:
-Your DH bike.

You get:
-A wood dowel custom drilled to replace your rear shock at 30% sag. 

Yes, you too can build your own Doctahawk for the low, low price of $59.95! 

*Some assembly required. Waltworks takes no responsibility for splinters.*

Find us on Kickstarter soon!

-Walt


----------



## xy9ine (Feb 2, 2005)

niche for sure, but i can see this working on the super steep tech that is chromags back yard.


----------



## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Fellas, I’ve been under a rock for a while. Please tell me who’s making single-crown 29er forks with 180mm travel. Thanks.
=sParty


----------



## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Let's see a raise of hands here from guys that have ridden in Pemberton on the steeper trails? Or the steep Whistler valley loamers? 

This isn't a bike for Sun Valley buff or Park City noodling. It's a niche bike designed for steep tech. Sure someone is going to buy it and ride it on flat buff trails, but that's not what it's for.

PS if you wreck yourself in Whistler there is a high chance that the doctor taking care of you in the clinic is the guy that pushed for this bike and the guy the bike is named after. He shreds harder than you do.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Yeah, too bad most of them will likely be used to shred the local MUP's.


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I was a pro DH rider briefly. I have ridden crazy steep crap all over. I still think this bike is very silly. I guess if you just want to basically fall off things to *only smooth transitions/landings*, sure. I haven't ridden in BC so maybe that's the story?

But it's a mountain bike, so as long as people are having fun and can take some good natured ribbing about it, I'm all for it.

-Walt


----------



## xy9ine (Feb 2, 2005)

shirk said:


> Let's see a raise of hands here from guys that have ridden in Pemberton on the steeper trails? Or the steep Whistler valley loamers?
> 
> This isn't a bike for Sun Valley buff or Park City noodling. It's a niche bike designed for steep tech. Sure someone is going to buy it and ride it on flat buff trails, but that's not what it's for.
> 
> PS if you wreck yourself in Whistler there is a high chance that the doctor taking care of you in the clinic is the guy that pushed for this bike and the guy the bike is named after. He shreds harder than you do.


ahhh, this is clark's bike. it all makes sense. and yes to all of the above.


----------



## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

xy9ine said:


> ahhh, this is clark's bike. it all makes sense. and yes to all of the above.


The blue one pictured is an employee bike, the original raw proto if the good Doctor's bike. Doc's original proto was made back last April.


----------



## Damon777 (Jun 11, 2012)

Walt said:


> All new from Waltworks!! The DIY-doctahawk kit!
> 
> You'll need:
> -Your DH bike.
> ...


Is this available in Metric sizing?


----------



## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Damon777 said:


> Is this available in Metric sizing?


Metric and Trunnion DIY-doctahawk kits are definitely on the drawing board!

We will also be offering a slack-n-low/full bottom kit which consists of:
-1/2" thick foam rubber sheet
-Duct tape

All you have to do is remove your rear shock, then install the rubber bumper anywhere that rockers/bridges contact your seat tube, and duct tape in place!

You'll be slacker, longer, and lower than all your friends, and ready to SHRED.

-Walt


----------



## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

To me, the crazy steep seat angle on a hard tail is more of a departure than the head angle. Running ~25% sag with a 180 fork makes the HA closer to a comparitiveky normal sounding 64ish whereas the seat angle gets awfully close to 80. (Just swags)

Walt, you need to add a profile fast forward seatpost to your kit for a proper near-vertical seat angle. Maybe you can chop it and weld it to the top of a dropper.


----------



## geraldooka (Jul 3, 2012)

I think it's great and agree the head angle is pretty normal at sag. But that seat angle  and I really like steep seat angles.


----------



## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

I'd love to be able to demo one of those or a hardtail from Sick Bikes or BTR. Just to see what they are like.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

It's a niche bike for people who like slack hardtails. It's not for performance. If it was for performance it would have 180mm of rear suspension too. You'll still be way under gunned on this bike if you take it to legit DH courses and are trying to keep up with people on enduro and DH bikes. You'll be able to get down the mountain but if you're buying a bike specifically for 'most people don't realize how extreme these trails are' trails then this still isn't the best choice. If you buy it for more tame trails it's not the best choice. This bike is for people who like the idea of this bike.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Guys,

I ride with a 180mm fork on a hardtail and it's great. Most people don't need 180mm of fork but some of us do. The bike still climbs better than anything you can buy and is super fun where and how I ride. I've talked with Ian about the Tomahawk-type bikes and they make perfect sense for what they are doing with them. My bike is very different and makes perfect sense for where and what I'm doing with it.

I don't make bicycles. I make weapons systems. | Peter Verdone Designs


----------



## xy9ine (Feb 2, 2005)

yep. it's a big diverse world out there. what works for some may not work for you - does not mean the concept is necessarily flawed. i'm stoked to see there's people out there finally pushing beyond road bike conventions to see "what if". mountain bike geometry evolution has been traditionally so timid - a degree here, a couple millimeters there. we're pretty adaptable creatures, able to accommodate pushing things out a handful of degrees or several inches, and from what i've seen &/or ridden, the new "radical" geometries offer tangible benefits (at least, for specific useages). so yeah. i welcome our new slack / slammed / stretched overlords.


----------



## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

The Doctor explains the Doctahawk. https://www.pinkbike.com/news/chromag-doctahawk-a-nerdy-geometry-explanation.html


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Sparticus said:


> Fellas, I've been under a rock for a while. Please tell me who's making single-crown 29er forks with 180mm travel. Thanks.
> =sParty


Rockshox Lyrik


----------



## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)




----------



## Rynee (Aug 11, 2014)

Interesting interviews with Ian ritz on the doctahawk:

https://cyclingmagazine.ca/mtb/chromag-doctahawk/

https://nsmb.com/articles/how-about-chromag-doctahawk/


----------



## Moonlight Cycles (Feb 15, 2019)

If we may, we'd like to chime in here. We are two guys from the U.P. of Michigan that have been experimenting with some forward geo hardtails of our own. We built two prototype frames this past fall to test a few ideas and theories about what makes for a capable enduro hardtail. It's been a great project and we've learned a lot through the design, test, analyze process. Here's a short summary of our findings so far:

-Offset seat tube with steep angle climbs really well.
-Long front center combined with a dropper and low stack height creates the conditions required to get low and descend fast through the roots/rocks/chop.
-29" and 27.5" wheel sizes are not interchangeable without consequence as many companies imply. The handling changes significantly between the two: from things that are just annoying like reduced BB height leading to increased pedal strikes, to major handling variation in the front of the bike caused by the changes in steering geo.
-Short stays do not adversely affect climbing when combined with the steep seat tube, and do not create a rough and out of control feel when descending because the overall wheelbase is still plenty long.

Using what we've learned, the next prototype iteration (MX3) will be as shown:









At first look, on paper, the geo may seem extreme or even absurd. Our approach to people trying this departure from what's considered "normal" geometry has been to not tell the test rider what the geo is until after they've ridden the bike. Sure, you can look and see it's different, but in our experience saving the numbers till after the ride has made for some pretty surprised folks...in a good way. Real substance comes once you've tried one. The style is certainly not perfect for every application or person, but it can be an amazing tool when ridden on the terrain it's designed for, and a minimal tradeoff for more "low-key" recreational trail riding. We've logged miles on flow trails, jump lines, pedally flat stuff, tight (Midwestern) single track, and of course, steep technical descending. It's a fun bike everywhere.

If you look at any single aspect of a forward geo hardtail on its own, it doesn't make sense to someone used to riding a more conventional frame (ex:Kona Honzo). It's paramount to consider the whole; only then do all aspects of the design come together, resulting in a remarkably capable and fun machine. If you are ever driving through U.P., give a shout and we'll get you out on a test bike (once the 5 feet of snow is melted).


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Moonlight Cycles said:


> ...


Those are pretty conservative numbers.

You will find that you've gone way too far with the seat angle and will have to back down quite a bit, especially given that you're midwestern builders. Then, then you'll start seeing the problems with the short stays you've got on climbs (especially as this is for a larger rider). Also, unless this is for a novice rider, forget about 27.5x2.8 tires.


----------



## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Moonlight Cycles said:


> If we may, we'd like to chime in here. We are two guys from the U.P. of Michigan...


I'm surprised you guys are going with such steep seat angles, being a relatively flat place. Your wheelbase isn't crazy long, so there's other ways to achieve it other than going whole hog with the seat angle. (personally i like to run something roadie-like unless there's a compelling reason to compromise).

I know how it is though; you refine an idea, and that refinement pushes you to further refinement. The destination is unknown and unexplored. It's pretty cool.

Me, i love being able to vicariously follow along with the innovators, so if you maintain a blog or something, post it up!


----------

