# Where have we lost access?



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

All the anti ebike sentiment seems to be centered on access issues. Have there been any park closures to all MTbs as a result of ebikes? I'm honestly asking. With the tiny bit of research I've done I've seen that many parks and areas have banned ebikes officially but is there a place that was terrorized by Ebikes that ruined it for the entire community. 

Not saying it can't happen or that it is not a risk, but I've not seen this anywhere yet. I'm in Northern California and the last I've heard there are new MTB parks opening near me but non have been shut down, at least not recently as a result of ebikes. 

The only access issue ive heard of is a park in the South Bay was shut down to MTBs because of fast times posted on Strava and a city council overreacting. But I don't think this was Ebike related. Any other examples?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm sure there haven't. There can't be more than a few dozen e-mtbs in our whole state, they aren't out there enough to even be noticed yet, let alone cause problems. 

Furthermore, they're illegal on basically all the trails in Park City/Summit County (except for commuter paths) so if someone riding one did cause problems, there'd be no question that mountain bikes are blameless as a user group.

Maintaining the distinction between motorized and non (whether allowed on trails or not) is all you really need IMO. 

-Walt


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Walt said:


> -Walt


Yes, yes there are more then a few dozen e-mtbs in Utah. With the Specialized warehouse in SLC there will be thousands of them just this year alone. Canyon cycles had more then a dozen in the store and they aren't even an emtb store. There are probably a dozen emtbs being ridden on trails in Park City as we speak as it is technically illegal but socially accepted behavior. You have probably passed a dozen emtbs and didn't know it. Utah will be ground zero for emtb growth as they mesh perfectly with ski resorts. As a ski resort employee, I use my emtb on a regular basis for work.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Linktung said:


> Yes, yes there are more then a few dozen e-mtbs in Utah. With the Specialized warehouse in SLC there will be thousands of them just this year alone. Canyon cycles had more then a dozen in the store and they aren't even an emtb store. There are probably a dozen emtbs being ridden on trails in Park City as we speak as it is technically illegal but socially accepted behavior. You have probably passed a dozen emtbs and didn't know it. Utah will be ground zero for emtb growth as they mesh perfectly with ski resorts. As a ski resort employee, I use my emtb on a regular basis for work.


So, depending on where you're riding, you could be violating USFS rules, too.

Wouldn't it be terrible if someone saw this post and sent it to the USFS, attempting to get bikes excluded from trails in that area?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Linktung said:


> tore. There are probably a dozen emtbs being ridden on trails in Park City as we speak as it is technically illegal but socially accepted behavior.


Accepted by who? Those that ride them? Sure. The continually trotted out "Well, I ride ilegally on trails all the time and no one ever says a thing" argument always makes me smile. It's rare anyone will confront another person on the trails, they'll take it up later, in public meetings or emails to the ranger. They sometimes forward those on to me, which can be amusing there's a lot of people that don't like bikes, they'll flip their lid once they start seeing ebikes.

Like others, aside from ebikes losing access to bike paths in a couple of places in Colorado, they haven't lost emtb access since they've never had it beyond moto trails. They're still statistically insignificant here, I've yet to see one on the trails and just a handful on bike paths or the streets. I see hobos on Whizzers more often.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> So, depending on where you're riding, you could be violating USFS rules, too.
> 
> Wouldn't it be terrible if someone saw this post and sent it to the USFS, attempting to get bikes excluded from trails in that area?


You could legally drive a truck up there sooo.....

Nobody cares what is said on the interwebs....


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Linktung said:


> You could legally drive a truck up there sooo.....
> 
> Nobody cares what is said on the interwebs....


Yes. You can legally drive a truck on USFS fire roads. Amazing.

You can't, however, legally ride an e-bike on USFS non-motorized trails.

And, believe it or not, yes, the USFS would take notice of this in many areas.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Harryman said:


> Accepted by who? Those that ride them? Sure. The continually trotted out "Well, I ride ilegally on trails all the time and no one ever says a thing" argument always makes me smile. It's rare anyone will confront another person on the trails, they'll take it up later, in public meetings or emails to the ranger. They sometimes forward those on to me, which can be amusing there's a lot of people that don't like bikes, they'll flip their lid once they start seeing ebikes.
> 
> Like others, aside from ebikes losing access to bike paths in a couple of places in Colorado, they haven't lost emtb access since they've never had it beyond moto trails. They're still statistically insignificant here, I've yet to see one on the trails and just a handful on bike paths or the streets. I see hobos on Whizzers more often.


The people who don't like bikes cannot differentiate a pedal assisted bike... If people will not confront an emtber then there is nothing stopping people from riding them....the only hope that the USFS has at enforcing laws is peer pressure....


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Yes. You can legally drive a truck on USFS fire roads. Amazing.
> 
> You can't, however, legally ride an e-bike on USFS non-motorized trails.
> 
> And, believe it or not, yes, the USFS would take notice of this in many areas.


I am not talking about a USFS fire road....nor am I willing to follow this conversation around in circles.....my ebike is calling, and it is way more fun then chitchat ting with the keyboard warriors.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Linktung said:


> the only hope that the USFS has at enforcing laws is peer pressure....


Just keep saying that over and over, maybe it'll come true.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Linktung said:


> The people who don't like bikes cannot differentiate a pedal assisted bike... If people will not confront an emtber then there is nothing stopping people from riding them....the only hope that the USFS has at enforcing laws is peer pressure....


Wait... So you are saying that it is up to the trail users to call out illegal e-bikers and enforce the law, but those same people are being called "trolls" for doing exactly that on websites such as this one... Seriously?!


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

There are thousands of miles of legal BLM and Forest Service riding available in the west, though I think, no, believe, some here like to continually give the impression there is some kind of blanket ban, probably to dissuade others from even considering an ebike purchase. I just got done with a ride on some a few hours ago, topping out at over 8K. Sure, I had cattle and their "leavings" to share it with, but better them then some mtbr whining about me cheating or somehow endangering their access. No worries though, a typical outback MUT trail in Idaho, totally legal, killer scenary and no one else out there, ahhhh. I saw some recent ATV tracks, and had a lot of rocks to deal with, no groomed single track just me and the cattle.

I did have a close call with one big male steer that was lurking around a blind downhill curve, we ended up eyeball to eyeball about 6' apart. All part of the fun out here. Right near the Utah border BTW, Linktung, up Weston Canyon N. of Malad, ride on brother, we have it made out here! Park City is about as much typical of Utah as Sun Valley is of Idaho, just saying Walt.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

portnuefpeddler said:


> There are thousands of miles of legal BLM and Forest Service riding available in the west, though I think, no, believe, some here like to continually give the impression there is some kind of blanket ban, probably to dissuade others from even considering an ebike purchase.


There is in fact a blanket ban, it's on all non-motorized trails within BLM and NFS lands. That is an important fact that should not be overlooked.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> All the anti ebike sentiment seems to be centered on access issues. Have there been any park closures to all MTbs as a result of ebikes? I'm honestly asking. With the tiny bit of research I've done I've seen that many parks and areas have banned ebikes officially but is there a place that was terrorized by Ebikes that ruined it for the entire community.
> 
> Not saying it can't happen or that it is not a risk, but I've not seen this anywhere yet. I'm in Northern California and the last I've heard there are new MTB parks opening near me but non have been shut down, at least not recently as a result of ebikes.
> 
> The only access issue ive heard of is a park in the South Bay was shut down to MTBs because of fast times posted on Strava and a city council overreacting. But I don't think this was Ebike related. Any other examples?


To the OP. I think the problem here is not that eBikes are creating access issues, it is more so that they were never allowed in the first place since they are Motorized Vehicles. Now some areas (not all) in the US have changed some of the rules to specifically allow Class 1 pedal assist eBikes on trails that are still closed to Motorized Vehicle traffic.

This can be compared to the who drone thing. When Quadracopter started out anyone could buy one and fly it basically anywhere without getting in trouble because there were no specific laws about them... Over the last 10 years laws have changed, the FAA has gotten involved, things are much different.

I am not sure eBikes will grow at the same rate that quadracopeter ownership has simply due to the cost, but as the eBike community gets larger and more and more negative interactions happen, things will change, the authorities will have to make decisions on access.

When that happens and how it happens is anyones guess. If the only eBikes sold in the US were 250 watt pedelecs, then access issues would probably never happen.... but can you or anyone else honestly say only 250 watt pedelecs will only be sold and used in the US. I doubt it.

The future on this entire situation is just very unknown to everyone.

Check out this comment made by a Hiker on a thread about illegal high power eBikes being ridden on the Demo Trail in the NorCal forums:



Czar Chasm said:


> As a hiker, mountain bikers' closing speed up and down is faster than us hikers. Someone is going to get hurt. I'm sure hikers have been struck and injured or died. And there are a lot of new and old mountain bikers who don't know trail etiquette, which makes everything unsafe. And some of the mountain bikers might get deep in the woods and if their bike breaks, they are stuck. Who is paying for that search and rescue? I'm concerned that people riding bikes will get all people banned from trails. Ban bikes from hiking places. Ban bike riding off pavement everywhere.
> 
> p.s. Thank you bikers for helping me polish my arguments against off road bicycling :thumbsup:


This is what all of us are up against.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> There is in fact a blanket ban, it's on all non-motorized trails within BLM and NFS lands. That is an important fact that should not be overlooked.


 It would seem we are both correct. But this isn't any new ban that came about recently to address the scourge of ebikes and the problems they are causing (none), the impression given) but is based on the signage put up years before the modern ebike came about, meant for the moto guys of the period who were ripping stuff up. Or do you think the sign makers somehow knew that bicycles with minuscule electric motors were on the horizon and they better use the term motors instead of ICE powered vehicles?

It's somewhat like the signs in residential neighborhoods "NO TRUCKS", meaning 18 wheelers, OBVIOUSLY, with their much greater weight and noise. But THEN someone is lobbying to keep a 1/2 ton pickup from driving on this public tax payer funded street, without any signs of street degradation or other problems caused by the pickup, by pointing at the sign and saying "NO TRUCKS!!" In fact it is exactly like that..... and if I was the 1/2 ton pickup owner being kept out of my tax payer financed street by the stupid sign, I'd be lobbying for a more clearly defined sign such as "NO TRUCKS OVER 50,000 LBS." I'd be lobbying for ebike signage changes but I am way too busy riding all the legal trails I have available to me.

One more thing.... do you think that 1/2 ton pickup driver would feel guilty or like a criminal, when he's driving down this tax payer funded street with a sign saying NO TRUCKS, or would he use the God given common sense he was born with and think, "I'm not hurting a damn thing, or going too fast or making any noise, screw the sign, it obviously was not meant for me and my vehicle." Just asking, I ride legal myself so don't call me a poacher.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

One more thing.... do you think that 1/2 ton pickup driver would feel guilty or like a criminal, when he's driving down this tax payer funded street with a sign saying NO TRUCKS, or would he use the God given common sense he was born with and think, "I'm not hurting a damn thing, or going too fast or making any noise, screw the sign, it obviously was not meant for me and my vehicle." Just asking, I ride legal myself so don't call me a poacher.

If he drove his truck down a street that said NO MOTOR VEHICLES then he would be a criminal


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

We haven't lost access, but have gained it in, for instance, the Santa Monica mountains. There are many other places where we haven't had it. Who knows whether that will change? One sure thing, the impotent whiners here will have no affect.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

This is what happens when people don't respect others on the trail.


__
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> New booby traps were found in the Frederick Watershed today. As we were kicking off trail work a rider pulled up and showed us 2 hollow metal tubes that had been buried in the trail, cut at an angle and sharpened, then spray painted to conceal them. One sliced his tire, the other he stepped on. This was found on the Kubla Khan trail. Keep your eyes peeled. If you find anything like this, report to Frederick County Sherriff's office (301) 600-1046






__ https://www.facebook.com/joe.whitehair.7/posts/1733474363347904



This doesn't just apply to e-bikers, but you can see what can happens when one person thinks their right to use trumps another's.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

life behind bars said:


> Impotent? Who's riding the motorbike? Bwahaaa!


More likely to be caused by negative standover clearance.


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