# Easy way to keep e-bikes honest.



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

In another thread that's drifting away to the rE-cycle bin a comment was made as to how to make e-bikes tamper proof. To this I propose the following with the caveat that it applies to primarily to California and its current laws.

Pretty simple; a land manager abstains from banning Class 1 and/or Class 2 e-bikes with the proviso that they must have installed an accessible fuse between the battery pack and the controller. Then establish a chart based on the maximum allowable wattage of 750w and the various voltages typical of the e-bike systems. Maybe allow rounding up the fuse amp rating by one step; i.e. a 36 volt system uses a 25 amp fuse, a 48 volt a 20 amp so on and so forth. Slow-blow also permitted.

The LEO then carries a multi-meter and a destructive fuse tester and replacement fuses. (fuses are cheap). Check the voltage and confirm the fuse rating. If the fuse doesn't blow when it should you're busted. If it does blow the LEO gives you a new fuse and you're on your way.

(If a LEO can figure out how to use a 9mm; M-16, radar gun and a taser they can probably be taught to use a multi-meter)

Easy-peasy.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

It would be much easier to ban anything with a motor. Easier-peasier.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2016)

mountainbiker24 said:


> It would be much easier to ban anything with a motor. Easier-peasier.


disallow them period, hence to cost for mr po po and the assorted fuses to regulate the e-bike clan.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

We've got 7 rangers for 44, 000 acres and 250 miles of trails just within the city park system, their main duty is to empty trashcans since they don't have time for anything else. 

They're not going to be testing anybody.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Solutions not exclusions.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> It would be much easier to ban anything with a motor. Easier-peasier.


Do you really think you will see all ebikes banned on non motorized trails everywhere? Funny, you can buy electronic shifters, electronic dropper posts, electronic forks and shocks and now legit emtbs? Wow, I didn't see that coming.. I will say if emtbs do threaten and indeed close trails to mtbs, I will sell mine.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Speed limits enforced somehow is your only option to cut speed regardless of the bicycle or ebike. "SPEED" is the only issue with ebikes, correct?


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## Capt.Ogg (Jun 5, 2015)

How about trusting people to do the right thing? If that trust is misused then take the access away.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Gutch said:


> Do you really think you will see all ebikes banned on non motorized trails everywhere? Funny, you can buy electronic shifters, electronic dropper posts, electronic forks and shocks and now legit emtbs? Wow, I didn't see that coming.. I will say if emtbs do threaten and indeed close trails to mtbs, I will sell mine.


Its not electricity that should be banned, it's motors. Get ready to sell it


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gutch said:


> I will say if emtbs do threaten and indeed close trails to mtbs, I will sell mine.


that would be too little too late, don't you think?


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Capt.Ogg said:


> How about trusting people to do the right thing? If that trust is misused then take the access away.


Why would anybody trust anybody? People have proven time and time again that we can't be trusted. There is no way I'm going to trust trail access with e-bikers.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gutch said:


> Do you really think you will see all ebikes banned on non motorized trails everywhere? Funny, you can buy electronic shifters, electronic dropper posts, electronic forks and shocks and now legit emtbs? Wow, I didn't see that coming.. I will say if emtbs do threaten and indeed close trails to mtbs, I will sell mine.


Oh, and e-bikes have been around longer than all those other electronic devices you listed, other than possibly those old K2 shocks and Specialized brains. The first e-bike I rode was back in 2008. What's your point?


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## Capt.Ogg (Jun 5, 2015)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Why would anybody trust anybody? People have proven time and time again that we can't be trusted. There is no way I'm going to trust trail access with e-bikers.


Well, then the problem is solved: they will eventually break the rules and get banned.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Why would anybody trust anybody? People have proven time and time again that we can't be trusted. There is no way I'm going to trust trail access with e-bikers.


If you don't trust anybody, I can see why your rationale is skewed.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Its not electricity that should be banned, it's motors. Get ready to sell it


I ride legal, what's your beef? Do you feel that threatened over a silent electric bicycle? Wow.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Oh, and e-bikes have been around longer than all those other electronic devices you listed, other than possibly those old K2 shocks and Specialized brains. The first e-bike I rode was back in 2008. What's your point?[/QUOTE
> 
> Cool, so your first ebike you rode was in 2008, what about the second or third? Are you a closet ebiker?! Wanna take my Levo out and see how much they've evolved? Or do you want to go ride together and I'll take my 6 fattie? I don't dislike mtbrs, and as stated above, if they threaten where I ride, I would sell mine. If you go too fast on your mtb and threaten trail access, would you sell yours?


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

this thread is all sorts of ridiculous

#1 - it will never happen

#2 - it could easily be bypassed. anything 'technology' is by-passable, easy peasy

#3 - rangers and LEO's are not electrical engineers, they have much more important
things to worry about, they are not gonna take apart your ebike on trail and diagnose it


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Gutch said:


> I ride legal, what's your beef? Do you feel that threatened over a silent electric bicycle? Wow.


it is not the noise a motorized vehicle makes that is the issue, it is
the fact it has a motor. stop trying to twist it around.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

127.0.0.1 said:


> #2 - it could easily be bypassed. anything 'technology' is by-passable, easy peasy


Perhaps you're not an electrical engineer? Sure, run a hidden jumper around a fuse and it's bypassed. Pull the fuse and if the system is still hot; BUSTED!

Anyway, in most motorized competition sports, entrance into an event is consent to a technical tear-down if a protest is filed. Checking a fuse is hardly a tear-down.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/da4e540a-da23-35b3-adf3-5c1b65d08721/electric-mountain-bikes-come.html


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

tiretracks said:


> https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/da4e540a-da23-35b3-adf3-5c1b65d08721/electric-mountain-bikes-come.html


Good article and about my "neighborhood". Only mentions a 250 watt pedalec though; not the issues that triple that is still legal or that 10X is here and hard to differentiate.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Moe Ped said:


> Good article and about my "neighborhood". Only mentions a 250 watt pedalec though; not the issues that triple that is still legal or that 10X is here and hard to differentiate.


The tone I got from it is to expect more bans.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Unless the Government is wiling to pony up a ton of cash to pay for rangers to be taught how to identify and test certain size Electric motors, I doubt we will ever see that sort of enforcement.

"maybe" they will enforce speed limits and my hope with that sort of enforcement is the speeders are heavily fined, bikes taken away, etc.

What I do not want to see is this:
http://www.tetongravity.com/story/g...untain-bikers-get-banned-from-california-park

This right here sets a president that if people are speeding on 2 wheels, just ban all 2 wheels from the park. That is the easy solution and underfunded Land Managers tend to take the easy path, not the best path.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Moe Ped said:


> Perhaps you're not an electrical engineer? Sure, run a hidden jumper around a fuse and it's bypassed. Pull the fuse and if the system is still hot; BUSTED!
> 
> Anyway, in most motorized competition sports, entrance into an event is consent to a technical tear-down if a protest is filed. Checking a fuse is hardly a tear-down.


it would be a piece of cake to engineer one of any dozen of ways to make
the fuse appear to work like (whatever law you are trying to invent) it is
supposed to when examined, then when pulled it does what it is suppsed to

but have all that bypassed with some hidden switch or remote wifi switch
inside the frame somewhere. totally hidden and immune to detection except
x-ray or complete teardown by an trained individual who knows what to look for

as I said, the idea itself...not gonna happen, so stop trying to make it happen


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Klurejr said:


> What I do not want to see is this:
> http://www.tetongravity.com/story/g...untain-bikers-get-banned-from-california-park


Also "sort of" in my neighborhood (I used to live closer, now I live about 70 miles away)

I don't think e-bikers are necessarily going to be the "problem speeders"; but they will add to the overall total of bikes speeding.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Why not just have the controller periodically updated via software patch (no update, bike doesn't run)? You could do it weekly, or nightly, or whatever. Nobody wealthy enough to buy/ride e-bikes is going to lack for an internet connection, and multiday backcountry rides aren't possible on a charge anyway. 

I really don't see how that could easily be bypassed, and it would be (I think) easy to implement. But I'm no electrical engineer either.

-Walt


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

127.0.0.1 said:


> it would be a piece of cake to engineer one of any dozen of ways to make
> the fuse appear to work like (whatever law you are trying to invent) it is
> supposed to when examined, then when pulled it does what it is suppsed to
> 
> ...


Do you even know what a fuse looks like?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Moe Ped said:


> Do you even know what a fuse looks like?


Do you know that fuses and their respective holders can be bypassed? This is a non-starter tbh.


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## richardjohnson (Sep 12, 2016)

Moe Ped said:


> In another thread that's drifting away to the rE-cycle bin a comment was made as to how to make e-bikes tamper proof. To this I propose the following with the caveat that it applies to primarily to California and its current laws.
> 
> Pretty simple; a land manager abstains from banning Class 1 and/or Class 2 e-bikes with the proviso that they must have installed an accessible fuse between the battery pack and the controller. Then establish a chart based on the maximum allowable wattage of 750w and the various voltages typical of the e-bike systems. Maybe allow rounding up the fuse amp rating by one step; i.e. a 36 volt system uses a 25 amp fuse, a 48 volt a 20 amp so on and so forth. Slow-blow also permitted.
> 
> ...


Ok obviously this is TIC.

We live in a time and place that people can afford electric bicycles to play on, drive to trailheads and all that. We also live in a time and place that public lands are managed by few and used by many and frankly usage is on the honor system. Aside from signage I wouldn't expect much from LM or government entities in the guise of enforcement. The government is a reactive not a proactive entity. If enough complaints are registered with the land managers/state representatives and such they would change the signage to include whatever offending problem they are seeing and await self policing to take care of the problem and the occasional crack down day to make sure the change is heard through the populous.

Just look at Marin county. First mountain bikes where allowed wily nily. Then they began to get regulated off the trails, then they got speed limits and then they got radar guns and then Mike Vanderman.

It would be the same process I think. If you have your trails open to ebikes. They ride and people co-exist. If the volume of people complaining increase the LM then bans the ebikes off the trails and shows up on a busy saturday and catches people breaking the law and writes citations (not that those usually stick). Once the word spreads, everything goes back to normal.

I have seen it happen on many trails, just with DH riders or with wildcat trail builders or just mountain bikers in general, why it wouldn't happen the same way with ebikes is beyond me.

The thing is at this point, there is a large body of trail users that seemingly are against ebikes on trails, as is evidenced in the pinkbike and mtbr polls and the comments at bike rumor. If they decided to call their LM and complain or urge that they take a stance on this, that it might effect their attendance at trail maintenance parties, etc. I think the LM's would listen. Don't you?


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Moe Ped said:


> Do you even know what a fuse looks like?


like this ?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...symbols.svg/2000px-Fuse-basic-symbols.svg.png


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

tiretracks said:


> Do you know that fuses and their respective holders can be bypassed? This is a non-starter tbh.


Try reading the other posts, yes I know a fuse can be jumpered but if so the circuit will remain hot and that's a fail. Devices in that jumper to make it "smart" (and disappear) would need to switch 20+ amps and are relatively bulky and would be hard to hide. Anyway; I'm lobbying for this to be a requirement for the manufacturers---removable battery pack (most are already) and accessible power leads with that mysterious accessible fuse.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

All nice thoughts, but I think we'll be lucky if everything ends up properly signed one way or the other.


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## Bodhii (Nov 21, 2016)

I have an easy solution to ebikes illegally going on MTB trails. Require ebike access to MTB trails only to those riders who are old enough for social security, or have handicap parking approvals. These permitted ebikes would need to display an obvious sticker showing that they have indeed been licensed for access. This would create a stigma on the ebikes that would drive the healthier and younger potential ebikers away, because they would not want to be categorized as being either too old or handicapped. EMTB's sales would plummet, as younger and healthier riders would look elsewhere for sports that would enhance their image; not humiliate them. And the people who should be using these ebikes, would be using these ebikes.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Bodhii said:


> I have an easy solution to ebikes illegally going on MTB trails. Require ebike access to MTB trails only to those riders who are old enough for social security, or have handicap parking approvals. These permitted ebikes would need to display an obvious sticker showing that they have indeed been licensed for access. This would create a stigma on the ebikes that would drive the healthier and younger potential ebikers away, because they would not want to be categorized as being either too old or handicapped. EMTB's sales would plummet, as younger and healthier riders would look elsewhere for sports that would enhance their image; not humiliate them. And the people who should be using these ebikes, would be using these ebikes.


I basically agree with this but it flies in the face of the "age is not a handicap" mantra. All sorts of discrimination/reverse discrimination scenarios come to mind. BTW I'm a proud Medicare card holder!


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

I can tell you one of the reasons we and Specialized demoed the Levos at Lackawanna State Park in Pa, the rangers wanted to be able to ID that type of bike as opposed to non legal units!

They rode them also


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## Bodhii (Nov 21, 2016)

Moe Ped said:


> I basically agree with this but it flies in the face of the "age is not a handicap" mantra. All sorts of discrimination/reverse discrimination scenarios come to mind. BTW I'm a proud Medicare card holder!


This permit process would not force anyone over 64 to get such a permit. I know several very fit older MTB guys who would not. However many, if not most riders over 64, eventually do feel less strong, but still want to continue the healthier and more exciting life style that regular mountain biking has always offered to them. Identifying these licensed mtn ebikes with easy to see tags would then make it very easy to identify ( and humiliate) any younger illegal riders who are actually trying to impersonate older and handicapped riders by illegally using a EMTB on restricted single tracks. This self-policing of the trails by fellow riders would be much more effective than relying on non-existent law enforcement officers to do it. No normal healthy bike rider would want to be accused of trying to steal privileges reserved only for the elderly or the handicapped. Strange as it may seem, but setting up a legit permit system for ebike access by the elderly, would actually greatly reduced illegal ebike use of those trails, and help preserve more access to these trails for all mtb riders.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

You're discussing only poachers, correct?


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## Bodhii (Nov 21, 2016)

Gutch said:


> You're discussing only poachers, correct?


Yes,.. a poacher being anyone on an ebike that did not have a permit for their MTB trail access. And permits would be available only to any riders 64 or older, or riders with doctor approved handicap parking status. As all MTB riders started to associate E-mountain bikes with these two 'assisted' groups, the use of EMTB's by poachers would all but dry up completely because of the unpopular stigma for younger riders that this 'assisted' EMTB status would carry within their peer groups.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

NEPMTBA said:


> I can tell you one of the reasons we and Specialized demoed the Levos at Lackawanna State Park in Pa, the rangers wanted to be able to ID that type of bike as opposed to non legal units!
> 
> They rode them also


What's the regulation in the state park system? There's a myriad of ebikes that are legal in the US and not all of them are Levos.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Bodhii said:


> Yes,.. a poacher being anyone on an ebike that did not have a permit for their MTB trail access. And permits would be available only to any riders 64 or older, or riders with doctor approved handicap parking status. As all MTB riders started to associate E-mountain bikes with these two 'assisted' groups, the use of EMTB's by poachers would all but dry up completely because of the unpopular stigma for younger riders that this 'assisted' EMTB status would carry within their peer groups.


I don't think you have to be at least 64 to ride an ebike. Have you ever ridden one hard? If I'm mis understanding your statement, my apologies.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Gutch said:


> I don't think you have to be at least 64 to ride an ebike. Have you ever ridden one hard? If I'm mis understanding your statement, my apologies.


No, he is stating that he would like the law to reflect that anyone under age 64 riding an eBike on a trail would be subject to fines or other punishment. He wants to make it illegal for those without age or handicap to ride anything with a motor on trails.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> No, he is stating that he would like the law to reflect that anyone under age 64 riding an eBike on a trail would be subject to fines or other punishment. He wants to make it illegal for those without age or handicap to ride anything with a motor on trails.


Gotcha, never work. How many S-works Levo's would be sold to 64+ riders? Specialized and others have a targeted market and my guess is it's current mtn bikers.


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## Bodhii (Nov 21, 2016)

Maintaining high ebike sales is NOT a concern here. The same Ebikes would still be for sale. And no new laws against EMTB's would be made. All that is being done is permitting a very small segment of the public to legally use singletrack MTB trails on public land. Would this have a huge effect on E-mountain bike sales? Yes, I think it would. And it would significantly reduce the potential access dangers for all MTBs on public land because, E-MTBs would loose much of their appeal to all young riders. Also, granting special access to older and handicap riders would be a great public relation coup for the whole MTB community.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Bodhii said:


> Maintaining high ebike sales is NOT a concern here. The same Ebikes would still be for sale. And no new laws against EMTB's would be made. All that is being done is permitting a very small segment of the public to legally use singletrack MTB trails on public land. Would this have a huge effect on E-mountain bike sales? Yes, I think it would. And it would significantly reduce the potential access dangers for all MTBs on public land because, E-MTBs would loose much of their appeal to all young riders. Also, granting special access to older and handicap riders would be a great public relation coup for the whole MTB community.


High bike sales is a HUGE concern to the companies that are investing in R&D. 30-50yr old bikers will mainly be their market sector. I may be wrong but who knows. Land Managers can decide whether they will allow them or not. If they don't allow them, then your "shame" factor will come into play with them poaching.
Being a Land Manager in NYS I could care less. Very little trail density.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Bike sales are only a concern to those that sell them. LM's have zero interest in sales. They are interconnected in that LM's have the keys to the castle, which if you can't ride them, why buy them and they get pressure from those who want to use (fill in the blank) on public lands. For the most part though, they ignore economic forces.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Harryman said:


> Bike sales are only a concern to those that sell them. LM's have zero interest in sales. They are interconnected in that LM's have the keys to the castle, which if you can't ride them, why buy them and they get pressure from those who want to use (fill in the blank) on public lands. For the most part though, they ignore economic forces.


Yes understood, but the whole over 64 yr old to ride a ebike on Singletrack is ridiculous. Do you really think that would work, then companies sales would drop and they'd eventually stop making ebikes? Not likely. What came first, the bike or trail? And I'm not talking hiking trails, I'm talking new IMBA trails. The ebikes will continue to flourish and more trails will come in time. Maybe not in MA, but they will come or be shared. Biking brings in huge revenue to communities. 
I personally don't care when I ride if I see another soul, kinda nice. But, I didn't invent the ebikes and nobody can deny their growth rate and profitability.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Why would anybody trust anybody? People have proven time and time again that we can't be trusted. There is no way I'm going to trust trail access with e-bikers.


Exactly!! 100% of the e-bikes that I've personally seen on dirt have been riding on Nat'l Forest land where they are not legal.


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## Cody01 (Jul 23, 2014)

I could really give a sh!t less if they are legal or not in the USFS. The reason about 80% of the USFS roads are closed completely within a 200 mile radius of me is because they wanted to cut staffing. Cutting staffing obviously reduces enforcement. The lack of ability to enforce much causes access closures. My stance is screw them. That's the publics land and I plan on using it. After all who is really around to enforce it. Nobody in my area. Its laughable how many sheeple just follow completely pointless rules and never let their own mind function for a minute on its own. Rules were meant to be broken!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

k2rider1964 said:


> Exactly!! 100% of the e-bikes that I've personally seen on dirt have been riding on Nat'l Forest land where they are not legal.


Exactly, 100% of the mtbs I've personally seen on hiking only trails, have been mtb's, where they are not legal.
Knuckleheads everywhere bro.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

Gutch said:


> Exactly, 100% of the mtbs I've personally seen on hiking only trails, have been mtb's, where they are not legal.
> Knuckleheads everywhere bro.


That might actually be relevant if 100% of the mountain bikers you have seen were on hiking only trails. Nice try...


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Yes understood, but the whole over 64 yr old to ride a ebike on Singletrack is ridiculous. Do you really think that would work, then companies sales would drop and they'd eventually stop making ebikes? Not likely. What came first, the bike or trail? And I'm not talking hiking trails, I'm talking new IMBA trails. The ebikes will continue to flourish and more trails will come in time. Maybe not in MA, but they will come or be shared. Biking brings in huge revenue to communities.
> I personally don't care when I ride if I see another soul, kinda nice. But, I didn't invent the ebikes and nobody can deny their growth rate and profitability.


Yep, it's ridiculous, it'd never work. If you wanted to limit the ebike market to people who only want assist as opposed to those who want to rip around, limit the power. I don't see why the industry doesn't push for the same limits as Europe.

I'm involved in a lot of bike related organizations and projects, including consulting on ebike access and I've yet to talk to anyone in Colorado who supports them on mtb trails that doesn't sell them. Will they exist? Certainly. Will they be allowed everywhere? Nope, not all landmanagers or legislators want them. It's unlikely they will be legal to ride in many places where I live no matter how many are sold.

I'll believe that ebikes and ebikers spearhead new trails when I see it. Mtb riders do create new trails, I've yet to see ebikers create any.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Read my post again. I was hiking on "hiking only" trail. What's your point?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Harryman said:


> Yep, it's ridiculous, it'd never work. If you wanted to limit the ebike market to people who only want assist as opposed to those who want to rip around, limit the power. I don't see why the industry doesn't push for the same limits as Europe.
> 
> I'm involved in a lot of bike related organizations and projects, including consulting on ebike access and I've yet to talk to anyone in Colorado who supports them on mtb trails that doesn't sell them. Will they exist? Certainly. Will they be allowed everywhere? Nope, not all landmanagers or legislators want them. It's unlikely they will be legal to ride in many places where I live no matter how many are sold.
> 
> I'll believe that ebikes and ebikers spearhead new trails when I see it. Mtb riders do create new trails, I've yet to see ebikers create any.


+1, 250w. Trail time and/or donation with approved landowner permission. 
Heck, the majority of traditional mtbrs don't do either.
Colorado is a little crazy with legal drugs, but no pedal assist bikes? But, you know all these major bike manufacturers aren't going to scrap the ebikes in the US, unless their profit is substantial in other countries. 
Everything is early and like everything things mellow out and the ebike companies will find a way for trail access.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Everything is early and like everything things mellow out and the ebike companies will find a way for trail access.


You do realize that in the grand scheme of things monetary that emotorbikes are not even a blip on the screen, right? The entire bicycle industry isn't even that significant. I believe that you place entirely too much emphasis on the bike industries ability to sway public policy decisions, especially in the face of big money opposition from the foot traffic side of this equation. Remember, it's not only Mountain Bikers that oppose emotorbikes, they are almost universally opposed by all other user groups. A separate designation is probably going to be in your best interests, otherwise you'll face unyielding opposition from all sides imo.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Moe Ped said:


> Try reading the other posts, yes I know a fuse can be jumpered but if so the circuit will remain hot and that's a fail. Devices in that jumper to make it "smart" (and disappear) would need to switch 20+ amps and are relatively bulky and would be hard to hide. Anyway; I'm lobbying for this to be a requirement for the manufacturers---removable battery pack (most are already) and accessible power leads with that mysterious accessible fuse.


20 amp:

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/g...Cas4QXw9vdPk3Nz77t8Io_DFto0f_P2FHYaAtQd8P8HAQ

40 amp:
https://www.superbrightleds.com/mor...t2c92NojKUwaRJMa4VWufaSl5qiRvoJrSMaAnCJ8P8HAQ


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> You do realize that in the grand scheme of things monetary that emotorbikes are not even a blip on the screen, right? The entire bicycle industry isn't even that significant. I believe that you place entirely too much emphasis on the bike industries ability to sway public policy decisions, especially in the face of big money opposition from the foot traffic side of this equation. Remember, it's not only Mountain Bikers that oppose emotorbikes, they are almost universally opposed by all other user groups. A separate designation is probably going to be in your best interests, otherwise you'll face unyielding opposition from all sides imo.


Agreed. A separate designation would work for me. Look, I'm not a poacher and also grant trail access on my own land. It is not congested, so there is no issues. But, not ALL mtbrs are against ebikes, nor are hikers. I know both that own ebikes.
My prediction is that they will be designated separately with a 250w cap. Yes, a few guys will mod, but the responsible ebiker will not allow "that guy" to blow his / her trail access. 
Remember, for every 10 "responsible" mtn bikers that are on the trails, there's at least 2-4 guys riding that don't do trail work or donate to their chapters. I believe responsible ebikers could match this ratio.
Finally, I don't have a dog in the fight, no ebike. People don't like change. The same guy that wants to buy an ebike, could be your brother or friend that you've rode with for 20 years. Now that he / she buys an ebike, they've all of a sudden forgotten all trail etiquette? Or you tell them to go pound it, I'm not riding with you?


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Harryman said:


> What's the regulation in the state park system? There's a myriad of ebikes that are legal in the US and not all of them are Levos.


 Yes as lond as they fit the Level 1: 250 watt, 20mph, no throttle.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

NEPMTBA said:


> Yes as lond as they fit the Level 1: 250 watt, 20mph, no throttle.


To clarify, they've limited it to 250w or 750? Because if it's 250w, that would be the first place I've heard of that happening in the states. Interesting.


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## Bodhii (Nov 21, 2016)

So, would the people here support these special use permits for ebikers over 64 and for handicap e-riders, including many of the US military veterans that would love to use ebikes if they could gain legit access to singletrack trails on public land? This is not a regulation that takes anything away from anyone. If it has a larger positive effect, so be it. But it would definitely have a positive effect on the many MTB lovers whose age and disabilities have left them sidelined, and unable to participate if they cannot gain these special use permits.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Gutch said:


> My prediction is that they will be designated separately with a 250w cap.


It could happen in the states that haven't yet adopted the industry's legislation or locally where it's already passed. That would have to come from either/both the ebike and mtb community though, inaction will lead to Peopleforbikes pushing 750w across the board. Once legislation is in place, it's awfully hard to change it again. 250w might be what you see in Colorado, you never know. 



Gutch said:


> Remember, for every 10 "responsible" mtn bikers that are on the trails, there's at least 2-4 guys riding that don't do trail work or donate to their chapters. I believe responsible ebikers could match this ratio.


Lol, more like 95% of mtbers don't do diddly regarding trail work or access, I'm sure it'll be mirrored with emtbs, no matter who ends up riding them. It's human nature to be oblivious.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Bodhii said:


> So, would the people here support these special use permits for ebikers over 64 and for handicap e-riders, including many of the US military veterans that would love to use ebikes if they could gain legit access to singletrack trails on public land? This is not a regulation that takes anything away from anyone. If it has a larger positive effect, so be it. But it would definitely have a positive effect on the many MTB lovers whose age and disabilities have left them sidelined, and unable to participate if they cannot gain these special use permits.


No. Anyone with an ADA disability can already ride ebikes where ever they'd like.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

They told me only the Levo is approved no other models as of yet.


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## Bodhii (Nov 21, 2016)

Harryman said:


> No. Anyone with an ADA disability can already ride ebikes where ever they'd like.


Harryman, 
If U would take the time to look up the requirements of ADA disabilities, you would find that "mobility impairments requiring the use of a wheelchair" are their parameters in their definition for physical disabilities. Hardly what I would call intelligent definitions for most of our disabled veterans who would greatly enjoy the use of ebikes on singletracks. U may want to look up the definitions of both 'pompous' & 'buffoon' while U R at it.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

If it were up to me, any disabled veteran or current military serving our country could ride any Singletrack.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Bodhii said:


> Harryman,
> If U would take the time to look up the requirements of ADA disabilities, you would find that "mobility impairments requiring the use of a wheelchair" are their parameters in their definition for physical disabilities. Hardly what I would call intelligent definitions for most of our disabled veterans who would greatly enjoy the use of ebikes on singletracks. U may want to look up the definitions of both 'pompous' & 'buffoon' while U R at it.


 Bodhii , maybe do some fact checking yourself? The ADA grants far and wide access for folks with impairments. Look up," other powered mobility devices" My friend uses an electric wheelchair here in MA. Just needs the trails to be a little wider than tight singletrack but can go anywhere. And does. I often ride with him. Great to see him back out on the trails. Not all places will allow e bikes on non bike trails and some local regs may be in place. Some areas have designated accessibility trails already in place. The HP / ADA is really a non issue. The local park system even hosted an accessibility event to try out some equipment.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Wish they had started with 250w since that seems adequate to me. As stated above, once the rules are established it won't be easy to change them. In CA, the bill needed to be passed by both houses and signed by the governor. Presumably, a new bill would have to be initiated, then go through the same process. The hierarchy at People for Bikes told me they were targeting NY and SC this year (both states rejected their attempts last year). Of course, they'll eventually try to secure approval from every state unless they are thwarted by a number of them. Fortunately some of the early opponents that thought old or physically challenged individuals should pack sand have left the forum.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Duplicare, sorry.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Bodhii said:


> Harryman,
> If U would take the time to look up the requirements of ADA disabilities, you would find that "mobility impairments requiring the use of a wheelchair" are their parameters in their definition for physical disabilities. Hardly what I would call intelligent definitions for most of our disabled veterans who would greatly enjoy the use of ebikes on singletracks. U may want to look up the definitions of both 'pompous' & 'buffoon' while U R at it.


I base my observations on the real world, ADA placards are easy to get, just ask your doc. They are always offering them to my parents and they are neither in wheelchairs, in walkers, on crutches or immobile. They are just old. Tell your local ranger you are disabled while you're out on the trail and they'll wave and tell you to enjoy your day.

If you want to try to create an additional special permit system, have at it.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Speed? I'm not sure what kind of speed people expect an assisted biker to reach on a technical trail in the mountains. Do they expect eBikers to soar past them at 20 mph on a blocky singletrail?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

voon said:


> Speed? I'm not sure what kind of speed people expect an assisted biker to reach on a technical trail in the mountains. Do they expect eBikers to soar past them at 20 mph on a blocky singletrail?


 Trails vary widely. Here in New England, lots of tech single track, more hills and ridges than big mountains. In CA, they actually have speed limits of 15 mph, lots of down hill dirt roads where that is possible. And some areas have smooth, buff downhill trails where speed is king. And possible to go faster than 20 mph.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Same here .. from rivervalleys, that are relatively flat up to the verticals of the alps. Downhill any bike can reach high speeds, tho ... that's more limited by the landscape than any difference between a motor or none. Can't see much speeding upwards on the limitations at least we have here, either ... motors just not strong enough and the batteries not large enough to waste energy on fast uphillbiking. At best you'd maybe see a (somewhat) speeder with an advantage by motor on a horizontal trail here. But even in those areas, most people I see are out on a bike to have the bike experience and go fairly slow .... speeding is not the goal usually for the people I meet.

But as per above, we don't have the issue with unregulated motorbike style & size throttle controlled e-vehicles.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

leeboh said:


> Trails vary widely. Here in New England, lots of tech single track, more hills and ridges than big mountains. In CA, they actually have speed limits of 15 mph, lots of down hill dirt roads where that is possible. And some areas have smooth, buff downhill trails where speed is king. And possible to go faster than 20 mph.


Exactly correct! Even though these ebikes can travel faster speeds, the trail is always going to dictate your speed. The more skilled riders on ebikes will go faster, but will also be safer. The clowns that go to Walmart and buy an ebike are not going to rip the trails fast, because they have no skill set.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

In a nutshell; the whole e-bike controversy is the point at which they morph from being transportation (where they get people out of their automobiles) to being recreation (where they get people away from using their muscles).

(Sure; you can work up a sweat on an e-bike; (x) kWh of sweat less than had the effort been done on a real bike)

So as replacement transportation IMHO 750w is about right; mixing it up with city traffic it's nice to have that level of power to stay clear of trouble. Block by block you'll be passing cars in stop and go traffic; not the other way around.

Recreation? Maybe 250w is a good number but once you've tried 750w you won't be going back. Especially if you're 'Merican-sized!

Whether e-bike uphill speeds become a source of user conflict remains to be seen; DH the motor wattage becomes a moot point.

BTW to get this thread back OT; here's the fuse on one of my battery packs as received from the dealer:









I'd have to go to 15A to be "legal" per my proposal.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Moe Ped said:


> (Sure; you can work up a sweat on an e-bike; (x) kWh of sweat less than had the effort been done on a real bike)


You can have exactly the same amount of sweat on both bikes. The eBiker will just have travelled farther. I'm not sure why people usually only consider the same lengthof trail. One of the reasons I like the e, is because I can get much farther and visit regions more devoid of people. If you're fairly fit on an eBike, the conventional biker would have to be exceptionally fit to cover the same. While this is something nice to be, it's not exactly the life goal of everybody with an urge to bike.

Mines 250W (and can't be more ... not allowed on trails) .. and I would not want it bigger. I like it where it is .. where I still have to work to get anywhere ion the mountains. Of course I could also use it to drive the 200 meters to the grocery store without any sweat at all ... but that's not what I'm doing outdoors.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

I'll break my self imposed exile from this site to make a brief comment and then it's back to exile land for me: I offered up the age limit thing, partially in jest, some time ago. Now, being more clearly stated by others, I can really see the merits of it. I especially like the shaming aspects of a younger rider trying to sneak under the rule, and getting dissed by others in his age group! While we old farts ride by and laugh, legally. I have 5 friends who, like me are in their 60's, and have ridden everything with two wheels for multiple decades, and yes that includes traditional mountain bikes. We are all fit, and sure as hell aren't going to go the ADA route, too proud of our fitness if nothing else. We have discovered how much fun ebikes are, and how they expand our capabilities, mostly how much fun they are. That's the big thing a lot just don't seem to get, when wondering why we, or anyone else, rides ebikes. They are FUN, really FUN, MORE fun then pbikes in our estimation and our decades of two wheeled experience. Sorry, that's not what you guys want hear I know. We're lazy, or unfit, or both, not really, we just like having more fun. WE think they are more fun, if you don't think so, it does not matter to us, at all. 

Being old farts, we are not going to be blasting up trails at 20 and over MPH, as Walt repeatedly states. At the same time, we are not going to be getting in the way and slowing others down on climbs, hell no. The e assist helps there, but it's just normal bike speeds, speeds of a very fit younger rider but nothing to fear, nothing to change things. Mixing ebikes with pbikes in the real world is so uneventful and no big deal it's hardly worthy of comment, it's a real yawner when out on trails and meeting other riders, or hikers, or horseback riders even. 

As before, you guys in the heavily populated areas back east, or in the west, can totally ignore all this as where I ride is a different deal, lots of trails (few if ANY developed as just "mountain bike trails"), few people, MULTI use rules out here. BUT, even back east or other areas where you're really fearful of being overwhelmed and your future access denied by ebike hordes, the age thing is the most practical "solution" (not sure there is or will be a problem to start with) I've heard yet. The theoretical ranger or trail cop, could just ask for ID, and me and my buddies would be good to go, pretty simple. Any younger rider faking it, would be immediately dissed and called out by both the old farts and the other younger groups, perfect!

Me, I'm heading to Moab in about 30 minutes, then Arizona, and up the Big Sur coastline and then back to Idaho. A big holiday road trip seeing friends and taking some legal rides. I have the folding eMontague I usually carry in the plane IN the used (plug in) Prius I bought a few weeks ago. No aero drag going down the highway that way, plus the Prius is set up to camp in, a mini motor home that gets 50-60+ MPH, with a e mtb inside, and, I can recharge the bike batteries (I carry 3, lot of options that way) while driving. Sounds like fun to me........


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

I had great discussions with "old farts". Hiking groups 70+ admiring the ebike. 60+ bikers greeting me happily when we see each other regularly. I might have felt weird when I was 16 to 20, where for some daft reason, a lot of energy is spent on trying to be cool by many (nowadays fueled by the selfie idiocy and facebook/instagram competition). Nowadays I don't. I don't try to se others as old people outside my peer group. I talk to them ... and I have had some very interesting conversations.

That whole "I'm holier than thou!" attitude because of insecurity and desperatly trying to fit a peer group that will bolster your ego is soemthing you eventually (hopefully) grow out of. That's the point where you can give a complete flying f-word on what the world thinks and enjoy your ride.

As long as you're not trampling on someone elses basic rights (having the hiking trail bike free isn't one of those), I don't see why not having fun.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

portnuefpeddler said:


> I'll break my self imposed exile from this site to make a brief comment and then it's back to exile land for me: I offered up the age limit thing, partially in jest, some time ago. Now, being more clearly stated by others, I can really see the merits of it. I especially like the shaming aspects of a younger rider trying to sneak under the rule, and getting dissed by others in his age group! While we old farts ride by and laugh, legally. I have 5 friends who, like me are in their 60's, and have ridden everything with two wheels for multiple decades, and yes that includes traditional mountain bikes. We are all fit, and sure as hell aren't going to go the ADA route, too proud of our fitness if nothing else. We have discovered how much fun ebikes are, and how they expand our capabilities, mostly how much fun they are. That's the big thing a lot just don't seem to get, when wondering why we, or anyone else, rides ebikes. They are FUN, really FUN, MORE fun then pbikes in our estimation and our decades of two wheeled experience. Sorry, that's not what you guys want hear I know. We're lazy, or unfit, or both, not really, we just like having more fun. WE think they are more fun, if you don't think so, it does not matter to us, at all.
> 
> Being old farts, we are not going to be blasting up trails at 20 and over MPH, as Walt repeatedly states. At the same time, we are not going to be getting in the way and slowing others down on climbs, hell no. The e assist helps there, but it's just normal bike speeds, speeds of a very fit younger rider but nothing to fear, nothing to change things. Mixing ebikes with pbikes in the real world is so uneventful and no big deal it's hardly worthy of comment, it's a real yawner when out on trails and meeting other riders, or hikers, or horseback riders even.
> 
> ...


? I here ya. Have a fun trip. Why not allow the younger guys to enjoy the FUN factor also? They are fun as ****, no denying that. Anyone that has spent a full hard day on a Levo is really going to enjoy that post ride beer(s).


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Being old farts, we are not going to be blasting up trails at 20 and over MPH, as Walt repeatedly states.


Is 65 "old fart"?

Eff yes if nobody's watching I'll be blasting up trails at 20 and over if my 750w will handle it.

Soooo many ways to cheat speed limiters...


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

But not the battery. Very hard to cheat the battery


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

voon said:


> But not the battery. Very hard to cheat the battery


Funny you should be the one to mention this; even considering the inefficiency of human metabolism a ham and cheese sandwich has more energy than an average e-bike battery. A reasonably fit biker will go much further on a regular bike than on an e-bike if you're talking out and back range. (Not doing laps to swap out dead batteries)

Guess we know what kind of shape you're in!


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Maybe ... depends a bit on the terrain. I'm sure I can show you a few trails in switzerland, where reasonably fit doesn't get you that far. Then again, I'm not doing gigantic tours. My average tour is around 60 Km on MTB trails, including around 1000 height meters upwards. That's what I kind of enjoy. My main goal is having fun, not proving to forum members how butch I am 



Moe Ped said:


> Guess we know what kind of shape you're in!


6'3" and 94 KG. I'm doing okay with my shape.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gutch said:


> Exactly correct! Even though these ebikes can travel faster speeds, the trail is always going to dictate your speed. The more skilled riders on ebikes will go faster, but will also be safer. The clowns that go to Walmart and buy an ebike are not going to rip the trails fast, because they have no skill set.


How exactly will skilled riders going faster on e-bikes be safer? Beginners on e-bikes that don't know trail ettiquette or basic wilderness skills are accidents waiting to happen. Neither scenario sounds safer than everybody on mountain bikes on mountain bike trails or motorcycles on motorcycle trails.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

The biggest factor in safety is the closing distance between two trail users. When descending, riders know they may need to stop for a climber and govern their speed accordingly. That's based on certain assumptions about closing speed, for a typical climber. Ebikes allow climbers to maintain much higher climbing speeds, so collisions will be more frequent.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> How exactly will skilled riders going faster on e-bikes be safer? Beginners on e-bikes that don't know trail ettiquette or basic wilderness skills are accidents waiting to happen. Neither scenario sounds safer than everybody on mountain bikes on mountain bike trails or motorcycles on motorcycle trails.


Whatever bro, same can be said about traditional mtbrs.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gutch said:


> Whatever bro, same can be said about traditional mtbrs.


To an extent, but it's exaggerated when electric power is added to the equation, don't you think? I thought you were giving me the silent treatment, "bro".


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Sure, have a great thanksgiving.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

voon said:


> You can have exactly the same amount of sweat on both bikes. The eBiker will just have travelled farther. I'm not sure why people usually only consider the same lengthof trail. One of the reasons I like the e, is because I can get much farther and visit regions more devoid of people.


yep^ e-bikes shrink wilderness.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Easiest way to keep Ebikes honest.....unplug them????


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

There ya go, turn them off then go ride anywhere.


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