# Beginners first frame build, start to finish. Long, slack hardtail



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

Hi everybody. I've been lurking around these forums for a minute now, I think I finally have something worth making a post about. This might get a bit long, so bear with me.

I've only been riding bikes for a couple years, kinda fell into it by accident and been fairly addicted since. I've got a background in automotive fabrication and paint, I worked in the old car business for over a decade, even had my own shop for about 4 years. At this point, I'm pretty burned out on cars, but I do miss building stuff. I've been thinking about (and trying to talk myself out of) building a frame for a couple years at this point, but it seems that once I get an idea in my head, I can't let it go so here we are.

Having built custom vehicles for a number of people over the years, there's a couple thing I like to determine before we begin any custom project. 1) Are we going to be able to produce a higher quality product than one we could simply purchase? *No. *2) Can we produce our custom whatever for less money than we would spend on a similar off the shelf product? *No again. *Can we produce our product faster than simply ordering a similar counterpart? *Absolutely not. * So, now that we've satisfied all the requirements of a custom build, we're ready to begin


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

On second thought, I'm gonna break this up into a few posts.

Until I finally jumped into this silly endeavor with both feet, I had only tig welded for about 47 seconds in my entire life. I can mig the hell out of some **** and I initially had thoughts on migging this frame but I have learned that stubbornness can only get you so far when you're actually using the wrong tool for the job. So I eventually broke down and exchanged a good deal of my hard earned currency for a tig welder. I then proceeded to turn a good deal perfectly good sheetmetal and tubing and filler rod into scrap, somedays I think I should have taken the more direct approach and simply started burning money. I'm at the point now that I'm making more weld than hole in my.035 practice tubing, it still looks like garbage but if i can claw my way up the learning curve to "adequate" that'll be fine for my first try.

I probably should have mentioned earlier, one of the reasons I'm doing this thread, besides forcing myself to keep some kind of record, is that as a beginner, I've found a lot of threads that either seem to get off to a good start, then not get any traction, then die. Or a bunch of "here's my newest frame" then a bunch of completed pictures. Or my absolute favorite "I'm 14 and live with my parents but i'm gonna build the best bikes ever cuz I'm wicked smart, I just need to raise $27k for tools, here's my kickstarter link" but not a whole lot of step by step beginner threads. Not to say there aren't threads like these out there, but why not throw one more out into the mix.

I do not have a mill, or a lathe, or a bandsaw, or even a garage, I'm building this in a back room of my house (really understanding wife) with fairly basic tools. A lot of the stuff I read or watch or listen to about frame building make the point that you don't _need_ any fancy tools to make frames, usually while they walk over to the bridgeport or lathe  I am truly making most of this stuff up as I go. I've found that the only way to learn how to do a thing is to just get after it, make your mistakes, improve, rinse and repeat.

Holy crap this is gonna be longwinded. I'm sorry in advance.


----------



## 1 cog frog (Dec 21, 2004)

I’m excited, whatever the length or end result!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

Why am I doing this and what am I making? 2 reasons, I think I mentioned I like building stuff and I'm really tall. Like 6'5" with a 36" inseam and and a 6'8" wingspan. My current ride is a 2019 XL Ragley Bigwig, it's got a 480mm reach, and something like a 667mm ETT, it's overforked with a 160mm Z1 coil and it's got a 1* Works angle set in it so the ETT is actually a bit shorter, but I think you get the idea. The bike fits me comfortably while I'm just pedaling along but when I stand up, bend my elbows and really ride the fork it gets real short feeling real quick, it feels like to keep my chin anywhere near over the stem in need to do a kinda of hunch/scrooch backwards (forgive my technical jargon) kid of maneuver to get placed centrally over the bike. It's uncomfortable and not my favorite.

I've never used any kind of CAD before, unless you count Cardboard Aided Design, but I'm determined to do the damn thing so I started messing around with BikeCad and can't recommend that program enough. I probably "designed" 30 bikes before I settled on something that I liked the look of and felt I could pull off. I've got a friend who says "if you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly" meaning, don't half ass it, whole ass or nothing. With that in mind here's what I'm gonna try and build 









Forgive the crappy picture, it's just a screenshot from bike cad but it's gets the idea across. The numbers look like this;
HTA 62*
Reach 540mm
Stack 672mm 
STA 75.5* 
Chainstay 450mm
BB Drop 66mm 
ETT 693mm

Yeah, I know, it's long. In theory, it'll have an ETT about 25mm longer than my current bike, but I'm gonna swap the 50mm stem for a 35mm so I should be only about 10mm longer than the current ride but have 60mm more reach when standing and riding the bars. I don't do a lot of tight switchback riding, so I'm not super worried about getting it around those kind of corners.

I have zero preconceived notion that that I'm going to do anything incredible on my first attempt here, I'm honestly just trying to get back into fabrication and have a little fun building something. Am I going to come out of the end of this project with a rideable bike? Maybe. It's probably just as likely that I'll end up with an unrideable wall hanging. However, I am an absolute fiend for metal flake paint so if I end up with something even remotely bike shaped at least it'll be pretty unrideable wall art. You might not be able to polish a turd, but I now for a fact that you can roll it in glitter.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

I built a simple 80-20 jig that can be described as "fine" Is it the best jig ever? No. Is it the best I could do with the allowable budget and time? Also no, but it's what I've got right now. As I used to say at my shop "It's good enough for who it's for" the jig itself is bolted to a section of solid core door that is in turn bolted to a really heavy drafting table that I removed from a back alley at work. The jig "floats" on the surface on studs so I can level the whole thing when I roll the table out to work on the frame. Some angle brackets, aluminum strap, all thread, a few wooden plugs to hold the tubes and a lot of swearing make up the rest of the jig.

I got all of my bike tubing and dropouts and stuff from Andrew at BICYCLE FABRICATION SUPPLY and just can't say enough good things about that guy, but that won't keep me from trying. He bent me up my custom long ass down tube out of 35mm .035" tube for me and I really like the way it came out. I probably should have gone with 38mm but whatever, next time.

I bought a "tubing notcher" from harbor freight and while it was excellent at making off center notches and generally turning nice tubing into scrap I realized it wasn't right for this project. I've been notching all my tubes with a paper template, angle grinder and a belt sander. I've had good luck with Tube & Pipe Notching Calculator - Printable Templates - Metric for the templates. I've never had a lot of tool budget so I spent a lot of years getting surgical with a 4 1/2" grinder. 








Template marked with a fat sharpie mark and roughed cut with a cut off wheel. 








Roughed in with a hard stone and finished up with a hand held beltsander. I don't have a picture of that, so use your imagination.

I'm trying to really take my time and get my miters as tight as possible, having to constantly remind myself that I'm not on the clock and the process is supposed to be fun. 
I think I'm doing ok


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

I'm not even really sure how it happened, but one day I was cutting tubes. I naturally started on the downtube first, since I've never done this before and it required the most mitering and was going to be expensive to replace if I ruined it. Great plan. I measured as many things as I could, eyeballed the rest of it and started hacking. I knew where my BB center was because Andrew was nice enough to mark it on the tube for me, so I printed a template for a 35mmm tube to a 38mm tube at a 90* angle and centered it on the BB center, and cut the tube. I sanded it until I was happy with the fit and then did the same deal with the top miter, got it close, left the tube long and just snuck up on it a little at a time until it fit nicely. Why yes, those are wormy maple frame tube cones, how nice of you to notice. 








I did put the seat tube in first, cut to length including the seat post collar it's 475mm. When the seat tube was in place and the down tube was fitted on both ends I got to do the compound miter for the top tube where it meets the BB and seat tube. I measured the angle of the base of the seat tube, removed it, put the down tube in and measured that angle, did a bit of subtraction, made a template for the down tube meeting the seat tube and only used the top half of the template when I marked the down tube. I don't know if that makes sense, but eventually I got this 








I got it to fit up pretty well and before too long this jig had tubes sitting in it!


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

1 cog frog said:


> I'm excited, whatever the length or end result!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you. I hope it's worth everybody's time 

I ran a string from the top of the headtube the the top of the rear dropout and marked an approximate line on the seat tube where the top tube and seat stays were supposed to come together. I got enough 35mm .035" tube from aircraft spruce for a top tube and a bunch of practice pieces. I "calculated" the angles on the top tube using a plastic protractor from walgreens and the string I mentioned earlier. Nothing but the best, spared no expense. Once I got some rough measurements for the top tube I did the deal again, hack, grind, sand, sneak, rinse, repeat. After the 18 hours when I freaked out and thought I'd made the tube too short and refused to even look at the bike jig, I got the tube to fit right enough to make me happy. I reeeeaaallly like a seat tube brace and kinda wish I would have made this one bigger, but that would have required more seat tube and even though I'm going to have about 3" of 210mm dropper post up above the top of the seat post, I didn't want more seat tube. I think that brings me to about where I am today. Everything held up with hose clamps and masking tape, waiting for me to bump into the table and knock it all over. 









I'm going to start chain and seat stays next, I just got the crankset that I'm going to be using so I can make sure I've got clearance everywhere. I'm gonna try to keep this post up as I figure my way through this. Fingers crossed I can make it into something.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

I just found the folder I was looking for with some pictures of past projects. Just for a frame of reference
Model A headers. I actually built this whole car, 32 ford framerails, supercharged flat head, 5 speed, chopped, the works. 








53 Chevy truck, bagged, big block, fenderwell headers, etc..








Twin turbo 454 S10
















Bagged 64 Cadillac with a metal flake roof








Falcon wagon custom paint








Not sure if anybody's into that kinda stuff but I used to enjoy it a lot.


----------



## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

Great build. Watching this thread. 
I am building my 8020 jig now. Should be donein January and then can start my build.


----------



## GrayJay (May 16, 2011)

What is the rake for the fork you are planning to use? Unless you can find (or make) a fork with huge rake, the 62 degree HTA is going to produce massive amount of trail and will steer really wonky. 
For cutting the tube miters from template marks, tube blocks (and vice to hold them), hacksaw to rough them in and half-round files to finish can do a great job for producing tight miters by hand from minimal tooling. 

Thanks for sharing the auto pics, I like wreching on cars as well as bikes. Your fabrication experience from those should translate well to bikes.


----------



## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

A couple thoughts you should ignore until you've finished this build (seriously, get through the full process and then apply everything you learn to the next one instead of second-guessing #1)

Neither bend is doing you anything - the bike is long and slack enough that the fork crown should clear a straight down tube, and the chainstays are long enough that you don't need the clearance behind the seat tube.

As for the down tube, bikes this long seem to be going to 44mm tubes - 35mm seems really small.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

sikocycles said:


> Great build. Watching this thread.
> I am building my 8020 jig now. Should be donein January and then can start my build.


Thanks. I hope I don't screw it up too badly. Good luck with your build, I'll check it out.



GrayJay said:


> What is the rake for the fork you are planning to use? Unless you can find (or make) a fork with huge rake, the 62 degree HTA is going to produce massive amount of trail and will steer really wonky.
> For cutting the tube miters from template marks, tube blocks (and vice to hold them), hacksaw to rough them in and half-round files to finish can do a great job for producing tight miters by hand from minimal tooling.
> 
> Thanks for sharing the auto pics, I like wreching on cars as well as bikes. Your fabrication experience from those should translate well to bikes.


I'm gonna be using the 160mm Z1 coil that's currently on my Bigwig. It's got a 44mm rake I believe. As it sit the head angle on that bike is about 62.5*, it does get a little wonky (excellent word choice there) at really slow speeds once in a while but I don't think .5* is going to make it unbearable. Everything's a trade off to some degree, I'm perfectly happy to trade some low speed handling or climbing ability for stability at high speeds and in the steep stuff. If it's too unmanageable, I'll reign it in a little on the next one.

As far as the hack saw and files, I'm sure that works a treat but I'm not trying to make more work for myself  for the price of a "decent" file set I bought this little hand held, 1/2 x18" belt sander and it rules. There's a flat platen, a couple of slack belt areas and if you promise it's just for a second, just to see what it feels like and it doesn't really count anyway, you can use just the tip

Glad you liked the car pics.



dr.welby said:


> A couple thoughts you should ignore until you've finished this build (seriously, get through the full process and then apply everything you learn to the next one instead of second-guessing #1)
> 
> Neither bend is doing you anything - the bike is long and slack enough that the fork crown should clear a straight down tube, and the chainstays are long enough that you don't need the clearance behind the seat tube.
> 
> As for the down tube, bikes this long seem to be going to 44mm tubes - 35mm seems really small.


Thanks, I expect the results here to be less than ideal. I am pushing forward and not trying to second guess myself to death (That's why I actually kept the 35mm DT) I'm gonna make mistakes, then I'll modify the plan, and do it again and again. A set of tubes for a bike is so affordable compared to car stuff that I plan to build a bunch of frames. I really do miss fabrication but there's only so much automotive stuff I can do with no budget, no space and very little interest. I can hang 10 bike frames on the ceiling and not worry about it so I'm not worried about building too many.

I know the bends don't do anything. I just like the way it looked. I built a bunch of frames in bike cad, convinced I wanted straight tubes everywhere, and just ended up liking the gentle bends in the st and dt the best. It won't be everybody's favorite, but that's ok. One of the best things I ever heard when referring to cars or bikes or whatever was "It's only gotta please one ass" I also found that with all straight tubes, it looked kinda like a gate.

I agree with the thoughts about the DT, but I already own it, and it's already mitered so I'm gonna give it a whirl. I'm sure that's going to be something I change in the next one. Not trying to second guess myself right out of the build.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

It turns out I'm better at working on stuff than updating this post. Been a bit distracted, selling a car and then shipping it across country is way more work than it should be. And, I've been kinda "meh" about the frame build, couldn't figure out why, every time I walked by it, I'd give it a glance, decide that was enough for now, and walk away. It hit me last week that I just can't make myself fall in love with that bent down tube, just can't. I liked it better on bike cad with that bend, but sitting here in front of me it just wasn't blowing my skirt up. Just holding up a piece of straight tube improved the look of the thing significantly, so I decided to change it. Since I was going to a straight tube I decided to increase the diameter to 38mm (1 1/2") I ordered that tube last week and I picked it up today. I'll hang on to that bent 35mm tube for when I want to build a Chromag knockoff.

I don't know. It just looks _weird._









With motivation refreshed, I started on the stays. I got both seat stays fitted without too much trouble (forgive the magnets) 








I really like these seat stays I got from Andrew at bikefabsupply 14mm round and they flatten out after the bend so they're an oval where they meet the seat tube, they're cool.

I'm getting ahead of myself a little. I did take everything apart, drill all the vent holes for the front triangle, weld the seat tube collar to the tube, weld the tube to the BB, cut the slot for the seat post clamp and made a hole for the dropper cable. And this is the only picture I have from that entire process. 









I got the drive side chainstay fitted. I really love a cool fabricated chainstay yoke and I love a challenge as much as the next lazy guy, but if I didn't _need_ to make one, I wasn't gonna. I'm not an engineer, or a welder but I figured if I could keep my welded areas in high stress locations to a minimum there will simply be fewer places to break. I think my combination of long chainstays and a little chainring will get me clearance for a 2.5 and a whole tube chainstay all the way to the bottom bracket. If I can only run a 2.3, that's not going to be a deal breaker, I run a 2.3 now and have no complaints. 








I put a little aluminum tab on my fixture that's as long as my 30t oval chainring is wide at its widest, it's on about a 50mm chain line and I think it's got enough clearance. I'm hoping to get snowed out of work tomorrow so I can mess with that down tube, if not it'll probably have to wait 'till the weekend.


----------



## AdamR83 (Jan 21, 2021)

Cars and bikes - they seem to go hand in hand... 

This is a great thread, I love that you're doing your own thing and making a bike to fit YOU, all the while applying a great attitude. To get that sort of quality with basic tools in a spare room of your house is very impressive. Look forward to seeing more updates when you have them!


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

AdamR83 said:


> Cars and bikes - they seem to go hand in hand...
> 
> This is a great thread, I love that you're doing your own thing and making a bike to fit YOU, all the while applying a great attitude. To get that sort of quality with basic tools in a spare room of your house is very impressive. Look forward to seeing more updates when you have them!


Thank you for the kind words. I'm trying to remember that I'm not on the clock, I don't have a deadline and this is supposed to be fun. One of my favorite things to do with cars was build headers, I enjoyed getting all the pipes to fit just right and go where I wanted. And at the end of that process you have something unique that anybody can't just go to the shop and buy. This is like that, it's certainly not quick or practical but that was never the point.

As for making it fit me and to my taste, there was a point when I stopped building things for me based on what other people might think. I spent a lot of money and time building things that I hoped other people would tell me looked cool. When I started building what I wanted because I wanted it, not only did the process and result get more fun but I learned so much about everything because I was pushing boundaries that I hadn't before. Good times. I'm enjoying this build and I feel like I'm learning so much, I'm curious to see what I end up with. If I can ride it to the mailbox without it bursting into flames, I'll consider that a win.

Thanks again, I hope to get some more done over the weekend.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

Yup. The straight down tube was the correct choice. That looks _so_ much better to me.

















I still need to do the non drive side chainstay but I'm thinking I'm going to at least tack the front triangle together before I fit that. Should I finish weld the front triangle before I put the stays on? Probably makes more sense to do it that way than to finish weld the whole bike at the same time. I guess I better get real good at welding real quick.

I got a picture of what I'm gonna do for the dropper cable. I had a spare cable port? Bulkhead? Thingy? left over from from my BigWig build, so I just made a little oval hole for that to clip in to. I considered making some sort of "reinforcing" plate for that hole but it seemed just like adding a heat affected zone there for no real reason, and I think I mentioned earlier about the lazy, so no plate it is. I'll probably put a little strip caulk around the plastic clip just to keep it quiet and keep any junk out.










The more eagle eyed amongst you might have noticed that the hole for the dropper cable is on the front of the seat tube. I'm running all of my cables on the top of the down tube, shift cable and rear brake will split off and go under the chainstays, dropper cable will make a nice easy bend and go right there. My BigWig runs the brake and shifter cables under the top tube and the dropper on the bottom of the down tube, under the BB and in the back of the seat tube. I carry my bike by the top tube and am always twisting the cables or they're squirming around under my fingers. I want everything tucked nicely up on top of the down tube where it's (probably?) less likely to get damaged, and out of my way when I need to pick the bike up. I also really like that bikes are machines, and I like my machinery on display. I hated cars that tried to cover everything up and bury everything in the most inaccessible spot because, god forbid, someone might see an oil filter or some spark plug wires and get the impression that this thing, is in fact a car. I like my wires and cables where they're easily accessible and serviceable, I like them clean and tidy but not hidden away.

But? But where are you gonna put the water bottle? I'm sure neither one of you reading this actually care about where I'm gonna put a bottle cage, but since you didn't ask, I'll give you an answer. I'm not. I don't want one. I'm not going to say that I think water bottles makes a bike look stupid, but I have never seen a bike that I thought had it's looks improved by adding a water bottle. Not one. I ride with a little backpack for my stuff and it has a reservoir in it, it holds more water than a bottle and I don't notice the extra weight when it's on my back. I did notice the bike felt better (lighter) with no bottle or tube/pump strapped to it, so for now I'm keeping the back pack.

Not gonna lie, I'm also leaving the bottle mounts off because I truly enjoy how angry some people get about bikes with no bottle mounts. Since the bikes already "too slack" and "too long" anyway  might as well go for the hat trick and add "no bottle cage".

Thanks for reading, I gotta go get good at welding.


----------



## Doug_J (Oct 5, 2009)

Really digging this build and like the way you roll. Keep it coming!


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

Are you going to braze this thing together or weld it?

How did you bend those seatstays? It's always hard for me to bend seatstays so they look matched.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> Are you going to braze this thing together or weld it?
> 
> How did you bend those seatstays? It's always hard for me to bend seatstays so they look matched.


I'm welding it. In as much as you can call what I'm doing to the poor thing welding. It's probably more like some kind of assault. More on that in a bit.

The seatstays were super easy. I went here 23X14 / 12.5 ZERO OVAL ROUND SINGLE BEND 14X23 / 12.5 X .7 X 565MM MPV180A507 - BICYCLE FABRICATION SUPPLY clicked add to cart, exchanged some currency and they just appeared in the mail  All kidding aside, I considered trying to make my own. I mean, why pay $33 for something when I could just build a much shittier version for probably $50 worth of material and 10 hours of time? The way I figure it, I got a better part than I could make and the guy that sells bike parts got to make a couple bucks, win-win. I mean, I got a pair of chain stays that are tapered, seamless, ovalized, s-bent and butted for something like$16 each. $16? I probably lost $16 in the time it took to type this post. If those were car parts, chain stays would be $200 a pop. It's crazy.

So, about that welding. Why the hell didn't anyone tell me this was gonna be so forking hard? My welds on this thing so far vary from "WTF?!" to "really?" to "I guess". I'd say that most of it is solidly adequate. Some of it looks like Ray Charles welded it, with his feet. I'm a bit annoyed and am trying to figure out way to get better at welding without actually, you know, practicing. So far I've tried yelling at the frame, poking it around with the end of a ruler and ignoring it, hoping the night shift would finish it off. So far, none of this has worked.

Honestly, it's probably mostly going "ok" I mean, it sucks, but I think it'll do for a first attempt. There are certainly more holes in it than I would have preferred, but I'm learning how to fill them, it's not going to win any prizes for beautiful welds but it will probably hold up long enough to build another one. It is pretty cool being able to hold it up and look at it. It's so much longer than my Ragley, it's stupid. 



























Andrew at BFS was nice enough to send me a banner with one of my orders, I had to modify it slightly to fit my needs.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

So it's been that kinda day.




























Do either one of you two reading this remember when I said it was going pretty ok overall? Well, this is what I get for making that particular statement.

What kind of a stupid dumbshit welds an entire head tube on without verifying that it's straight? This kind. Don't do drugs, kids.

Long story short, the cope in my down tube was crooked, hence the headtube was also crooked. A lot crooked. I tried cold setting it, witch wanding it and of course, yelling at it. Couldn't get it to budge, so here we are. I have a spare headtube and I didn't ruin either tube taking it apart and the two tubes didn't spring 8" apart as soon as they were cut free, so I guess for the shape we're in, we're in pretty good shape.

I gotta clean the tubes up and do this part again but I'm not done yet and as long as I keep swinging, they won't stop the fight. Stay tuned, I guess. I'm bound to ruin some more stuff before I'm done.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

I did basically the same thing once when I measured off the wrong part of my jig (three times though, to be sure!). Except it was worse, like visually obvious, and I still somehow didn't even notice until it was painted. It was a fun destruction test though.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> I did basically the same thing once when I measured off the wrong part of my jig (three times though, to be sure!). Except it was worse, like visually obvious, and I still somehow didn't even notice until it was painted. It was a fun destruction test though.


I do enjoy a good destruction test. The twin turbo, big block s10 from the earlier post was "destruction tested" with a 12lb hammer and a forklift. It fared about as well as you'd expect. Damn good times.

This one was visually obvious once I saw it, not quite sure how I screwed it up so badly, but I did. I did get the new head tube 80% welded on, it's straight so far. I'm sure I'm off a few mm or 1/2 degree here or there (and there, and there, and there...) but, at this point, I don't really give a ****. Perfect is the enemy of good. If it stays straight-ish from here on out, I'll be happy enough. Some of the welds are ok, some of the welds are holes, but at least one of them looks like this. Remember, it's my first time, be gentle. I also talked to a super nice frame builder in Santa Fe about getting the headtube reamed and bb faced, I was a little worried about getting that done and I'm happy it's handled.










I got murdered on the jump bike this afternoon, so I might have time to get this finish welded and back in the jig by the weekend. This stupid thing is going to be a bicycle at some point. I think.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

Well, it’s fucked.

I finish welded the head tube, put it back in the jig and the goddamn head tube is now at a 65* angle. I checked it before I welded it in and it was sub 63* now it’s 65*. I give up. I think this one’s going in the trash. I could have had a doctahawk frame for the amount of money I’ve already thrown at this piece of **** and what’s the point of a custom frame if it’s nowhere close to what I wanted?

I don’t know. I hate this and even if I finish it I’m gonna hate it because I know it’s wrong and not what I wanted from the beginning. I’m gonna think on it for awhile, but I think that’s the end of this particular failure. I don’t know I’m so pissed off that I can’t even think. Goddamn what a waste.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Lighten up pal. You sound like a millennial. You're not going to hit a home run at your first bat.

In a way you lucked out. A 63 degree head angle is a pretty terrible idea. I don't use anything shallower than 65 degree and for good reason.

Finish up. Learn your lessons. Go at bike #2 with some experience under your belt.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

Your mistake is spending too much time on this one. I can tell by how long your posts take that you are working too hard at it. Instead of planning to build a frame, you should have planned to build 3 and throw away the first 2. That's what you are going to do anyway so the faster you get to the 3rd frame the faster you have a good frame. Sometimes you get lucky, and the first or second is good enough. But the point is that dragging it out doesn't really help. You should be able to build a frame in a day. Maybe 2, if you do some prep one day and stick it together the next. If you F up, you just throw it it the scrap bin and do it again. Basically you will progress as the size and complexity of the scrap bin blossoms. It is the same for any artist. Most famous paintings are painted over multiple times. Henri Cartier-Bresson died with over 2000 rolls of unprinted film. Steel is cheap. Time is expensive. If you can't afford steel and acetylene then you need a different hobby. Rebuild it tomorrow. Hope it helps.


----------



## MattiHill (May 18, 2019)

65 will still be a pretty fun bike! A bike you have built yourself will always be more fun. You have made it this far and it is time to at least sample the fruits of your labor.
Some say you learn more from a loss than a win. Don't treat this as the total loss you may be thinking it is. You built a bike! The head angle doesn't mean it can't be ridden.


----------



## 1 cog frog (Dec 21, 2004)

Bikesaredumb said:


> Well, it's fucked.
> 
> I finish welded the head tube, put it back in the jig and the goddamn head tube is now at a 65* angle. I checked it before I welded it in and it was sub 63* now it's 65*. I give up. I think this one's going in the trash. I could have had a doctahawk frame for the amount of money I've already thrown at this piece of **** and what's the point of a custom frame if it's nowhere close to what I wanted?
> 
> I don't know. I hate this and even if I finish it I'm gonna hate it because I know it's wrong and not what I wanted from the beginning. I'm gonna think on it for awhile, but I think that's the end of this particular failure. I don't know I'm so pissed off that I can't even think. Goddamn what a waste.


If you're building a custom frame to save money you'll be forever disappointed. Custom will always cost more than production. Especially when you're learning. You don't gain skill right away. It comes with time & effort.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Don't trash it, finish it out so you can get through and learn from all the other mistakes you're going to make, then ride it so you can check your expectations and assumptions.

I forgot who said it, but the best advice on framebuilding there is goes like:

"You will hate yourself and your tooling for the first dozen frames"

I'm at 15 frames and still find new ways to screw things up. I've built bikes that were as much as 10mm off from what I thought I was building. But I still rode that bike until I cracked the seat tube.

And it took 15 frames to learn that the first 14 didn't fit.

We look at bikes too much like welding projects. It's not a stair handrail. It's closer to custom tailoring, and I don't think anyone thinks they can sew a decent suit jacket on the first try.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

pvd said:


> Lighten up pal. You sound like a millennial. You're not going to hit a home run at your first bat.
> 
> In a way you lucked out. A 63 degree head angle is a pretty terrible idea. I don't use anything shallower than 65 degree and for good reason.
> 
> Finish up. Learn your lessons. Go at bike #2 with some experience under your belt.


OK Boomer 



JackOfDiamonds said:


> Your mistake is spending too much time on this one. I can tell by how long your posts take that you are working too hard at it. Instead of planning to build a frame, you should have planned to build 3 and throw away the first 2. That's what you are going to do anyway so the faster you get to the 3rd frame the faster you have a good frame. Sometimes you get lucky, and the first or second is good enough. But the point is that dragging it out doesn't really help. You should be able to build a frame in a day. Maybe 2, if you do some prep one day and stick it together the next. If you F up, you just throw it it the scrap bin and do it again. Basically you will progress as the size and complexity of the scrap bin blossoms. It is the same for any artist. Most famous paintings are painted over multiple times. Henri Cartier-Bresson died with over 2000 rolls of unprinted film. Steel is cheap. Time is expensive. If you can't afford steel and acetylene then you need a different hobby. Rebuild it tomorrow. Hope it helps.


Well. I'm sorry, but you're just wrong there. You know I do other stuff, right? Spending too much time? I barely work on the thing. I not trying to make as many frames as I can, as fast as I can. I'm trying to learn to enjoy the process of fabrication again after having all the fun taken out of it from owning a shop. If bike shaped things come out of it, so much the better. Build a frame a day? there are 16 copes to make on this frame, that's a pretty ambitious ask for a guy with no mill. That's also a pretty good amount of welding, but if that's how you like to get down, that's cool. That sounds way to damn much like work to me. I have enough work at work, I want this to be an enjoyable process. Cup of coffee, music turned up, just playing. You know, fun? I'm "spending too much time" because if it doesn't feel like fun, I don't do it. Also, if I'm gonna be really nit-picky, the price of acetylene doesn't affect me in the slightest because I'm TIG welding, not brazing, but you knew that.



MattiHill said:


> 65 will still be a pretty fun bike! A bike you have built yourself will always be more fun. You have made it this far and it is time to at least sample the fruits of your labor.
> Some say you learn more from a loss than a win. Don't treat this as the total loss you may be thinking it is. You built a bike! The head angle doesn't mean it can't be ridden.


You're probably not wrong.



1 cog frog said:


> If you're building a custom frame to save money you'll be forever disappointed. Custom will always cost more than production. Especially when you're learning. You don't gain skill right away. It comes with time & effort.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah. Thanks. I was actually illustrating that point when I made the money spent vs product received statement. And, despite what my signature would have you believe, this isn't my first time with custom fabrication of stuff that you could buy for way less. Also, I'm almost always disappointed.



dr.welby said:


> Don't trash it, finish it out so you can get through and learn from all the other mistakes you're going to make, then ride it so you can check your expectations and assumptions.
> 
> I forgot who said it, but the best advice on framebuilding there is goes like:
> 
> ...


15 frames? Well, that should only take about 2 weeks  and I'm pretty sure I'll still hate myself long after I've completed a dozen frames, if I ever complete a dozen frames.

OK, I know. The only way to improve is to practice. Some days we win and some days we learn and all that ****. I know. If you read back in the thread, I say it a million times. Let me put it this way; I never expected a homerun, but I was hoping to get to the on-deck circle before I stuck the bat in my ass and somehow also set myself on fire. And look, I get to be pissed off that I missed something so damn obvious. Childish? Probably, but I've been called worse.

I shouldn't have posted something before I had a chance to calm down but my wife is probably only going to listen to me talk about head tube angles five more times before she leaves me, and I wanted to vent. I'm most likely going top finish the thing. TRY to finish the thing, no promises it won't end up cut into pieces and buried in the yard.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Sounds like this is someone's first rodeo.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

pvd said:


> Sounds like this is someone's first rodeo.


It is! And at this point I've got more questions than answers. Why is everybody's hat so big? If you're trying to get ropes on that baby cow, wouldn't it be easier to just rope them while they're in that little pen? Seems like letting them free and then chasing them is really counterproductive. Do you guys think that bull really wants to be ridden? So much I don't understand.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

Well, it's been 23 days. 23 days and I welded 23 bikes. Twenty three complete bikes in 23 days, that's gotta be some kind of record. Unfortunately, every single one of them had the head tube off by like .7 degrees so I had to throw them all away. Damn shame. 

I did keep and finish that first one. Finish weld anyway. I'm pretty sure I missed a spot or 2 but I think it's ready for reaming. Since this first one is a throw away anyway, I'm not going to use the braze-ons I had purchased. I'll keep them for the next frame and secure the cables and hoses on this one with a liberal application of zip ties and electrical tape.

I talked to a real frame builder up north and he agreed to ream my head tube, chase and face the bb and ream the seat tube in exchange for some hard earned currency. I'm going to see if I can make that happen sometime this week.

I welded the stays on. the drive side is twisted a little and kinda crooked but it fits a 2.3 and the wheel even seems to be in there pretty straight. The fact that the wheel even went between the dropouts was more than I was expecting, the axle even works. Wonders may actually never cease. 









If you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly. 203mm rear rotor with no adapter.










I spent way too damn long masking an iscg05 tab, but here it is. It's also probably too thin at .120, but it's 4130 so it's probably fine.










I decided to put that on with some silly-bronze since I had some and why not. It was a good decision, seeing as the only place I melted the edge of the bb was where I tried to tack it. Pound for pound that stuff's about twice as much as a good steak and I think it only tastes about half as good, works pretty good for this though.



















And here we are.










I'm not going to use a chain stay or seat stay bridge. I'm an idiot but it seems like putting a HAZ in the middle of these tapered, butted, awesome pieces of metal kinda defeats the purpose. What do I know and it'll probably fail but yolo, I guess. 









I did 2 little BMX-y head gussets, just overlaid tube welded down the sides and not across the back. I read a bunch of stuff that said if you don't know what you're doing, head tube gussets are just telling the cracks where to form. I certainly don't know what I'm doing but this style of gusset was said to do the best about transferring force without causing cracks. Whatever. We'll see.




























And I cooked my finger when I decided that continuing the bead that was going well was more important than the fact that my finger was burning. That's a first for me. 









Good times. So that's where we are right this moment, I'll touch base when I've got the reaming operations handled.

I almost forgot! I ordered an angleset for it, even if 63* is "a terrible idea" It's my terrible idea, and it's what I want. That will make this frame a bit more livable until I can get around to building number 2.....err....number 24? Whatever, angleset for the win.

I also know I said that this would get metal flaked, but that's probably not going to happen. I'm not throwing another $200 in material at a bike with a useful life of probably less than 6 months. At the moment I'm torn between cheap rattle can or an occasional wipe with an oily rag. Time will tell.


----------



## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

Awesome! I vote for installing those braze-ons, as you might discover the bike rides better than your misalignment might suggest.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> Awesome! I vote for installing those braze-ons, as you might discover the bike rides better than your misalignment might suggest.


Thanks! At the moment, I'm gonna pass on the braze-ons, I've already got the parts for frame the second, and I know I'm going to make another one and I kind of like the idea of zip ties and tape, kinda prototype race car stuff. I'm still going to make the cable runs neat and tidy, I'll just save the oddly expensive braze ons for the next one.

So, about that reaming. Long story kinda shorter, I had an arrangement with a guy to get everything reamed, just so happens he's on vacation. I'll never fault a guy, especially a small business owner, for taking a vacation but it did make me realize how much I dislike not being able to do my own stuff and being on someone else's schedule.

I started looking around at stupider options. There's no way in hell I'm shelling out for the Park Tool reamer, I'll never build enough bikes to justify that purchase. After calling a few other frame builders and feeling like I was talking about bigfoot after I asked about a 44mm reamer, I pulled the trigger on an "appropriate" sized adjustable reamer. I figured I could try it on the head tube I cut off the frame, if it worked, cool, if it didn't, it was cheaper than the park tool and vacations only last so long anyway. I figured it was going to be a stupid waste of money.

HAHA! Stupid like a fox!









Between sneaking up on it with the reamer and my friends Mr. brake cylinder hone and Mr. emery cloth...









I think we might just be in business! 


















There's some chatter from the reamer but I can't feel it with a finger nail and it's a bike, not the o-ring groove on the space shuttle. That little semi-integrated headset pops in with a little convincing, the Cane Creek one feels like it'll do the same.

I also ordered a seat post sized adjustable reamer but it's not here yet so I went after the few ugly spots inside the tube with some files and the hone/sand paper combo and got that working.










I can easily insert the post to the collar but it's gonna end up sitting more in that neighborhood anyway so there it sits.

I have an appointment Monday afternoon to get the BB chased and faced, then I think it's paint time. And on the subject of paint, I found something wonderful and if you think you hate this thing now, wait till I get paint on it


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

The bb is faced and chased and the angle set showed up today.

I’m pretty sure it’s on.

Paint time. 
Let’s get stupid.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

Ok. it's grey. woohoo.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

Of course I'm kidding


















4 cans of rattle can bright pink glitter  It's not metal flake the way I prefer to do it and it's not outdoor rated so it'll probably fade in 3 months but it sure is sparkly right now! I buried it in as much shitty clear as I could manage, it's gonna come off and get scratched and that's fine.

I spent most of today building this thing, managed to test ride it this afternoon. It's _*weird *_being so high over the bb compared to my bike with a 71* seat tube, the quick and dirty effective seat tube on this is about 77.75* so that's a change. The cockpit feels a little closer than the 60mm shorter reach bike, that seat tube angle in action I'd imagine.























































Hey homie, where you from? 








And yeah, I got carbon fiber spacers, so what? I call it cabron fiber because that's funnier.




























Couple curb drops, couple mini stair sets of doom and it's still alive. I did manage to build the whole thing without a single Big S brand part, that makes me smile. 
We ended up with approximately 
63-63.5* HTA depending on how I hold my mouth while I measure it
75* STA (78-ish "effective")
540mm reach
450mm CS
70mm bb drop
ETT ended up being about 685mm
1335mm wheelbase 
The parts come from Marzocchi, Spank, Magura, OneUp, Microshift, Profile, DMR and probably some others. And a huge thanks to Andrew at BFS for all the frame parts and help with my dumbass questions.

Anyhow, I guess it's a bike. It's really cool to ride something I made, this is easily as fun as the first time around the building in a car I built, and much cheaper and quicker. I'm going to take it out for some more testing over the weekend, get some dirt under the tires on some easy familiar trails. Just from 30 minutes screwing around at the park up the street I think it's gonna be good. It feels more balanced than my other ride, easier to get in attack position without feeling like I'm way over the front wheel and need to scrooch back. I dig it. I think it's gonna work.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

What seatstays are those? They look pretty thin from here.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> What seatstays are those? They look pretty thin from here.


Still these. 23X14 / 12.5 ZERO OVAL ROUND SINGLE BEND 14X23 / 12.5 X .7 X 565MM MPV180A507 - BICYCLE FABRICATION SUPPLY Just like last time. And the time before. And they "look thin" meaning what?


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

Meaning, I just think they look a little skinny. They are probably fine. Just look skinny that's all.


----------



## Doug_J (Oct 5, 2009)

IT'S ALIVE!!! 

So very cool, I would love to do this at some point myself. Well done Sir, awaiting the full (completely unbiased of course) ride report.


----------



## andrewsuzuki (May 30, 2021)

Bikesaredumb said:


> 203mm rear rotor with no adapter.


Are you _trying_ to trigger PVD?


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

JackOfDiamonds said:


> Meaning, I just think they look a little skinny. They are probably fine. Just look skinny that's all.


They are a little skinny. I kinda thought that was the point. The stays on my Ragley are less than 13mm in that dimension, I think they're probably a 12mm oval before they get paint so these are a good bit more robust than those. They'll work until they don't I guess. 


Doug_J said:


> IT'S ALIVE!!!
> 
> So very cool, I would love to do this at some point myself. Well done Sir, awaiting the full (completely unbiased of course) ride report.


Thank you, completely unbiased ride report to follow.



andrewsuzuki said:


> Are you _trying_ to trigger PVD?


Trying? No. But if I can have better braking and piss someone off, why would I turn that down?

Out in the dirt! 

















I'm really liking the cable routing, it won't be everybody's favorite but it makes me happy. 









I added a headtube badge. That's a legit '64 Cadillac hood badge, it's one of 2 I had for the gold car on the first page. I was able to reshape it to fit the 48mm headtube without completely ruining it, I'm pretty sure this is solid brass, it's buttery soft and bent by hand. Sorry for the **** picture.










As to the completely unbiased ride report; I'm sorry it everybody has to find out this way, but there's no point in building any more bikes. This is the best one. I accidentally made the best bike ever. We could all live for a thousand years and there will never be a better bicycle.

I mean....so far it's pretty good. I've had it out on dirt twice, and it (and I) lived through both so I'm wildly exceeding expectations there. I'm taking it really easy but so far it climbs like a thing that climbs really good and goes down like my ex at the bus station, with a composed enthusiasm.

Real talk, I like it. A lot. I like the steep seat tube, I like the cockpit fit, I _love _the extra reach. It's early but the fit feels really good, I was afraid it was going to be too long, but it's just right. It feels really comfortable already and feels like it'll be fast. It's way less low speed floppy than my Ragley was and despite all the numbers it feels like it's easier to get into the air. Nothing big, but stuff that I fought getting the front wheel to lift over on the other bike I'm easily getting air under both, it's weird. New bike stoke maybe? We'll see if that's a thing that sticks around.

TLDR; I lives so far, I like it, glad I didn't chop it up and bury it in the yard.


----------



## AdamR83 (Jan 21, 2021)

Yesss! You built a frame and rode it. And it's glittery pink. Top job my man! Glad to hear you're already enjoying it.

I have the same stays on mine and they are going strong after ~400 miles of abuse (I am a small version human though).


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

AdamR83 said:


> Yesss! You built a frame and rode it. And it's glittery pink. Top job my man! Glad to hear you're already enjoying it.
> 
> I have the same stays on mine and they are going strong after ~400 miles of abuse (I am a small version human though).


Thank you! It's weirdly good. I'm trying to get enough time on it to figure out how to describe how it feels. So far it feels fast and solid, it's also dead silent except for the hub noise, which I like, cable rattle makes me crazy.


----------



## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

Bikesaredumb said:


> cable rattle makes me crazy.


Ya think?


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> Ya think?


Did my use of _all _of the zip ties give that away? I know, everybody says cable rattle is annoying but I get unreasonably annoyed by that kind of nonsense. Unreasonably.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

Well. It's been an interesting couple weeks. Try as I might, I have not been able to break this dumb thing yet. I know a lot of people say they're their harshest critic while also being their biggest fan. I'm certainly my harshest critic and my harshest critic. I'm generally not my biggest fan but other than the couple stupid, basically cosmetic things that bug me, I _*really *_like it.

The steep seat tube is just the best, it pedals and climbs better than the Ragley, feels more balanced. It's also less floppy at low speed, and gets through low speed techs climbing bits better. It took me awhile to put into words how the frame _feels_ and I'm still not sure this is exact right, but I think it's close. It's less springy than the Ragley, the bigwig is, for sure, more compliant (I think I might hate that word) it moves around more. You can really move the bb around with the pedal push test. So going over rocky sections or washboard it feels like it's moving out of the way a little and then springing back. The pink bike feels less compliant but more dampened. Stiffer but not rigid? I found myself on some washboard road sections and I could feels the fork absorbing most of it and even concentrating as hard as I could, I could not feel it in my feet. I don't know, I definitely know when there's rocks and stuff but it's just not jarring to ride over them. I like the hell out of it so far.

And it's fast. Scary stupid fast. I'm pretty sure it's faster everywhere on my local trails. The thing that really gets me is just how much faster it feels in places where it shouldn't. I've got some long, smooth-ish double track to get out into the foothills, some rocky spots, couple steep bits but mostly sweeping double track. The way back down this is just no brakes, flat out, death grip, flat turns as fast as you dare go. It's fun. This bike is noticeably faster here, like holy-****-I'm-gonna-die faster. It's all the same components as the other bike, not sure why it feels like it is just capable of obtaining a higher top speed. I like this too.

Ah! Got one, it's a little low and I smacked a pedal more than I'm used to, but that's technique and I can make it work. It is worth it for how beautifully it steers, it feels like I just think about a direction and it goes there. This is also pretty good.

I really like it. It's long and silly and slack and pink and faster than hell. I think the numbers are pretty good, I'm gonna keep riding it, see if anything really needs to be changed and probably start on number 2 this fall.


----------



## Doug_J (Oct 5, 2009)

Sounds you hit a homerun! After all the challenges to get there it's got to be extraordinarily satisfying to have it ride so well!

Congratulations man, well done.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Bikesaredumb said:


> I'm gonna keep riding it, see if anything really needs to be changed and probably start on number 2 this fall.


Now is a good time to put some real effort in learning to draw a bike so that you can really refine the design to do what you want it to do. You built a bike. Now you need to learn to design one. By the time you start cutting metal in the fall, you should have gone through about 25 generations inside the computer.


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

Holy ****, it's been a minute hasn't it? 



Doug_J said:


> Sounds you hit a homerun! After all the challenges to get there it's got to be extraordinarily satisfying to have it ride so well!
> 
> Congratulations man, well done.


Thanks! I'm still exceptionally pleased with it so much so that I treated it to a little something special. Details below. 




pvd said:


> Now is a good time to put some real effort in learning to draw a bike so that you can really refine the design to do what you want it to do. You built a bike. Now you need to learn to design one. By the time you start cutting metal in the fall, you should have gone through about 25 generations inside the computer.





I've been riding the bike all summer and I *love it. *So much so that I decided to take it apart and give it a proper re-spray. I got my air compressor working again and treated the frame to about 4oz of 5 different metal flakes over a black base. I used actual paint materials and I'm really happy with how it came out. 

Just so you believe me that it was actually black...









out of direct light it looks pretty similar to the rattle can job









but in the sun  I can't get the camera to do it any kind of justice, but here goes.



























There's a stupid amount of color shifting flake in with the pinks and it's truly insane, I stopped trying to count how many colors I was seeing when I ran out of fingers. 










I also re-did the cable guides to be a little less zip-tie heavy. The chainstay protector is still pretty shitty, but it's not a tire, so there's that. 
All the colors though...



























And since now it's not only the best riding bike ever, it's also the best looking I'm gonna keep this one for awhile. I just don't want to build 15 frames for the sake of doing it, I'm not trying to be a Framebuilder (with a capital F) I'm just a guy screwing around trying to have fun. I'm sure every part of the process will be easier/faster next time and I'm positive the weld quality will be better.

That being said, I'm certainly going to build another frame. Practice, after all, makes something. I don't remember. So it looks like I'll just be building a second bike, and since it seems ostentatious to have 2 slack long travel hard tails I'm gonna have to build something different. It will probably be terrible and it will definitely infringe on all sorts of patented things, so it's bound to be at least entertaining. Stay tuned for no other reason than it's fun to point and laugh.


----------



## thedudeman (Nov 10, 2006)

Best thread in some time. Sweet ride and thanks for sharing!


----------



## Grinchy8 (Jul 6, 2021)

Nice build!


----------



## Hibikealot (Oct 14, 2021)

That bike looks sweet slack and ready to attack.
What is the biggest fault you have found riding if any?


----------



## Bikesaredumb (Dec 31, 2020)

thedudeman said:


> Best thread in some time. Sweet ride and thanks for sharing!


Thank you! 



Grinchy8 said:


> Nice build!


I appreciate it, thanks!



Hibikealot said:


> That bike looks sweet slack and ready to attack.
> What is the biggest fault you have found riding if any?


If I’m forced, I will say it’s a little low. The bb sits right at 300mm static, I do smash a pedal once in a while but I wouldn’t change it. Honestly, the bike rides really well. I’m not super experienced but it’s honestly the best bike I’ve ridden. The huge reach (540mm) makes it easier for me to stay centered in it and it’s really confidence inspiring.Even though it’s really long (1335mm wheelbase) it never hangs me up in technical spots or tight turns, I’ve actually cleaned a lot of tight techy stuff that I struggled with on a shorter bike. Basically, it rules. I’ve been trying to find honest complaints and I just can’t.


----------

