# Are class 1 embts going away?



## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

So I see that the new Levo with the walk assist and shuttle mode make it so you no longer have to pedal to ride making the new Levo a class 2. I was wondering if you all think that this is the new direction for the embt industry?

I personally am not interested in an ebike unless it has a throttle given that the only places to ride ebikes on singletrack where I live do not have any restrictions regarding the class. So no reason to not have the option to ride without pedaling. I do realize that the "throttle" on the new levo is pretty limited with a max speed of something like 5 mph, but the way the industry goes with more power every year I am sure that will increase steadily. Plus, if it is a class 2 anyways, why not make it so the throttle goes all the way up to the max speed limit of 20mph?

*edit: added this vid so you can see ridding a Levo without pedaling using the walk assist throttle. This makes it a class 2 by definition of the law.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

I dont know that we need this. I ride e, and havent found a place for it to be used. I would hope that 5mph stays 5mph and doesnt ramp up. See where it goes from here.

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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

NEPMTBA said:


> I dont know that we need this. I ride e, and havent found a place for it to be used. I would hope that 5mph stays 5mph and doesnt ramp up. See where it goes from here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I agree with this we do not need it I personally have no use for a throttle of any sort and we have enough problems with the anti ebike crowd seeing them as motorcycles if they start adding throttles I would agree with them

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## Phantomtracer (Jan 13, 2004)

The levo does not have a throttle. The walk assist is set at approximately 1mph. Class 1 is here to stay.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

Phantomtracer said:


> The levo does not have a throttle. The walk assist is set at approximately 1mph. Class 1 is here to stay.


The walk assist is not set at approximately 1mph.









It would be very hard to argue that the Levo with walk assist is Class 1.

Most electric motor bicycle laws are similar to this:

(1) A "class 1 electric bicycle," or "low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle," is a bicycle equipped with a motor that *provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling*, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.
(2) A "class 2 electric bicycle," or "low-speed throttle-assisted electric bicycle," is a bicycle *equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle*, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

That's how they got around it. "No throttle" Does it state the rider has to be actually riding the bike with walk assist, hum " walk assist"...

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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

Phantomtracer said:


> The levo does not have a throttle. The walk assist is set at approximately 1mph. Class 1 is here to stay.


Sure looks like a lot more than 1 mph in this video. First 10 seconds of the vid shows a Levo being ridden faster than 1mph without pedaling. No way to argue that is still a class 1.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

NEPMTBA said:


> That's how they got around it. "No throttle" Does it state the rider has to be actually riding the bike with walk assist, hum " walk assist"...


It can be argued that "walk assist" provides assistance when the rider isn't pedaling, making it Class 2.

It can also be argued that "walk assist"uses a motor to exclusively propel the bicycle, making it Class 2.

The physical throttle in this case is the + button which has to be held down to make the bike move without using the pedals.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

NEPMTBA said:


> That's how they got around it. "No throttle" Does it state the rider has to be actually riding the bike with walk assist, hum " walk assist"...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


They didn't get around it, they're just ignoring it.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

harryman said:


> they didn't get around it, they're just lobbying to have the law changed...and it will be b/c the "S" has lobbyists.


fify...and that stinks!


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Their lobbyists wrote the laws to begin with, at this point, they're stuck with them. The reason they're pushing for only class 1 access on trails is that seeing someone pedal an emtb up a climb at 8 mph doesn't freak people out like someone coasting up a climb at 8 mph using a throttle. That's it.


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

Walk assist does nothing more than walking speed to assist you when walking my trance habit also and when sitting on the bike will barely move it in that video he was on a downhill mtb course not too hard to do that on any bike !! Class 1 is not going anywhere that is the future of mountain bike technology 

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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Harryman said:


> They didn't get around it, they're just ignoring it.


Same, same...

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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

og-mtb said:


> It can be argued that "walk assist" provides assistance when the rider isn't pedaling, making it Class 2.
> 
> It can also be argued that "walk assist"uses a motor to exclusively propel the bicycle, making it Class 2.
> 
> The physical throttle in this case is the + button which has to be held down to make the bike move without using the pedals.


Throttle vs button...

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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Harryman said:


> Their lobbyists wrote the laws to begin with, at this point, they're stuck with them. The reason they're pushing for only class 1 access on trails is that seeing someone pedal an emtb up a climb at 8 mph doesn't freak people out like someone coasting up a climb at 8 mph using a throttle. That's it.


And, I could simulate, by pedalling and being using the button at the same time. Who would know?

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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

NEPMTBA said:


> Throttle vs button...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Even if you're willing to ignore the whole providing assistance without pedaling part, you'll then have to look at how a throttle is defined.

Claiming that a button can't be a throttle is not a strong argument.

throttle
_noun_

1.*a device* controlling the flow of fuel or power to an engine.
"the engines were *at full throttle*"

button
_noun_

2.*a small device* on a piece of electrical or electronic equipment which is pressed to operate it.

synonyms:knob, switch, on/off switch, push switch, disc, lever, handle, key, control, controller


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

scottxpc said:


> in that video he was on a downhill mtb course not too hard to do that on any bike !!
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


He may have been in a dh Park, but the vid clearly shows he is going up an incline. What he is doing cannot be done on a pedal bike.



NEPMTBA said:


> Throttle vs button...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Very strange comment.

There are lots of different kinds of throttles. Twist throttle, pedal throttle, thumb throttle, button throttle, etc. If there is a device that when manipulated it activates power to a motor, then it is a throttle.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Bosch has had walk assist for a couple of years. Anyone who thinks that makes it a "Class 2" is just looking for another bullshit argument. 

You can't adjust the speed. You hold down on the button, and it goes one slow speed. You let off the button and it stops. On Bosch, if the torque sensor feels *any" pressure on the pedals it cuts walk mode, so there is not even any way you could soft pedal and have the bike do all of the work.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

tahoebeau said:


> So I see that the new Levo with the walk assist and shuttle mode make it so you no longer have to pedal to ride making the new Levo a class 2. I was wondering if you all think that this is the new direction for the embt industry?
> 
> I personally am not interested in an ebike unless it has a throttle given that the only places to ride ebikes on singletrack where I live do not have any restrictions regarding the class. So no reason to not have the option to ride without pedaling. I do realize that the "throttle" on the new levo is pretty limited with a max speed of something like 5 mph, but the way the industry goes with more power every year I am sure that will increase steadily. Plus, if it is a class 2 anyways, why not make it so the throttle goes all the way up to the max speed limit of 20mph?
> 
> *edit: added this vid so you can see ridding a Levo without pedaling using the walk assist throttle. This makes it a class 2 by definition of the law.


After seeing this video I guess we can put the old "it is so much slower downhill" argument to bed.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

honkinunit said:


> ...there is not even any way you could soft pedal and have the bike do all of the work.


Unless you switched to shuttle mode.

What do you have against soft pedaling the ebike and letting it do all the work for you anyways?


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

honkinunit said:


> Bosch has had walk assist for a couple of years. Anyone who thinks that makes it a "Class 2" is just looking for another bullshit argument.
> 
> You can't adjust the speed. You hold down on the button, and it goes one slow speed. You let off the button and it stops. On Bosch, if the torque sensor feels *any" pressure on the pedals it cuts walk mode, so there is not even any way you could soft pedal and have the bike do all of the work.


Exactly!! Anyone who argues different has obviously never ridden a class 1 ebike and is just looking to pick a fight !!

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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

scottxpc said:


> Exactly!! Anyone who argues different has obviously never ridden a class 1 ebike and is just looking to pick a fight !!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I think that the electric motor bicycle definitions codified in the law (see above) are pretty straightforward.

I've also ridden a Class 1 electric motor bicycle.

Try again?


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## scottxpc (Jan 24, 2013)

og-mtb said:


> I think that the electric motor bicycle definitions codified in the law (see above) are pretty straightforward.
> 
> I've also ridden a Class 1 electric motor bicycle.
> 
> Try again?


If that's true that you have ridden one than you know it cant go faster than a walk and you are grasping for a way to start a fight it's not going to be with me I'm done talking you should find a hobby lol

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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

scottxpc said:


> If that's true that you have ridden one than you know it cant go faster than a walk and you are grasping for a way to start a fight it's not going to be with me I'm done talking you should find a hobby lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I've ridden a Class 1 electric motor bike. I definitely went much faster than a walking pace.

Just like all of the folks that I've seen riding Class 1 electric motor bikes at speeds that are faster than a walk. Just like all of the videos of folks riding Class 1 electric motor bikes at speeds that are faster than a walk.

You seem to be kind of confused. About a few different things.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

The anti-ebike crowd just cracks me up, pulling at any straws they can exaggerate. 
Walk mode is just that, walking speed. That video, you don't see what he did before hand. 
Look at the video again, flat terrain going about walking speed.

Move along folks! nothing here to report except deranged anti bikers typically foaming at the mouth. They know a tidal wave of ebikes are coming to a local trail near you, it may not be now, but it is the future!

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## mintakax (Jan 20, 2019)

mtbbiker said:


> The anti-ebike crowd just cracks me up, pulling at any straws they can exaggerate.
> Walk mode is just that, walking speed. That video, you don't see what he did before hand.
> Look at the video again, flat terrain going about walking speed.
> 
> ...


Thats it exactly ! Almost comical.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

NEPMTBA said:


> And, I could simulate, by pedalling and being using the button at the same time. Who would know?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


No one. I think we should call a spade a spade, and treat emtbs with throttles, and without throttles the same. They're the same under the law. Ten years from now, in the US anyway, there will be people riding 35lb 250w PAS emtbs with small battery packs, and people riding 45lb 750w PAS emtbs with thumb throttles, or buttons with creative euphemisms that do the same thing whether you are pedalling, ghost pedalling or not pedalling.

We've already seen emtbs go from torque sensing PAS only, to with "walk assist", to "walk assist" and cadence sensing 100% motor output. How long we'll have programable "walk assist" or "super boost" where a button can give you an adjustable power level on top of whatever else you're doing? Good luck pretending that's not going to happen.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Yes, it will follow the American way, but as I have said time and agian, no matter what we talk here, inforcement wont happen. Only high traffic near city areas will see rules enforced.

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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

mtbbiker said:


> The anti-ebike crowd just cracks me up...
> 
> Move along folks! nothing here to report except deranged anti bikers typically foaming at the mouth. They know a tidal wave of ebikes are coming to a local trail near you, it may not be now, but it is the future!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





mintakax said:


> Thats it exactly ! Almost comical.


Please point out the anti ebike posts in this thread.

There seems to be a lot of touchy people in this forum.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Who, what, WHERE?

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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

singletrackmack said:


> Please point out the anti ebike posts in this thread.
> 
> There seems to be a lot of touchy people in this forum.


Right? No one has called for any anti ebike anything. The OP was pointing out that according to the laws; "a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling,", that if your ebike has a way to turn on the motor and provide assistance that doesn't require pedaling, it's not Class 1.

You all can argue about what is a "throttle" and how somehow the speed matters, or that it's not Class 2 because no one is going to check, but the law is clear and simple.

Like the OP, I'm pro throttle, I don't see what the fuss is.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

How do you restart on a steep hill without a throttle?


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

singletrackmack said:


> Please point out the anti ebike posts in this thread.
> 
> There seems to be a lot of touchy people in this forum.


Any of the post who doesn't understand walk mode, as it is only a simple on/off button that can only take a bike up to walking speed and I'm sure it limits the torque to maybe 10% torque. If you see it different, then you are definitely anti-ebike. An anti-ebike person will only see what they want to see and nothing else.

The shuttle mode, you still need to pedal, no throttle. Class 1 is still clearly intact and here to stay.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Harryman said:


> Right? No one has called for any anti ebike anything. The OP was pointing out that according to the laws; "a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling,", that if your ebike has a way to turn on the motor and provide assistance that doesn't require pedaling, it's not Class 1.
> 
> You all can argue about what is a "throttle" and how somehow the speed matters, or that it's not Class 2 because no one is going to check, but the law is clear and simple.
> 
> Like the OP, I'm pro throttle, I don't see what the fuss is.


The ebike I borrowed, an Intense Tazer, walk mode did not have enough power to move with me on it, as it was designed to only assist while walking. The guy in the video must have been walking fast with his ebike on a flat surface, jumped on it and then they video'd it. Again, walk mode is not a riding mode, so it still falls under class 1 ebike.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> Again, walk mode is not a riding mode, so it still falls under class 1 ebike.


Does the motor provide assistance when the bike isn't being pedaled?


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> Does the motor provide assistance when the bike isn't being pedaled?


Yes, with no rider on the bike. Walk mode does not have enough power to move with a rider on the bike. At least that is how it was on the Intense Tazer and I'm sure because of the strict regulations on Class 1 bikes, they are all that way.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> Yes


How can you claim it is a class 1 bike when the motor provides assistance when it isn't being pedaled?

(1) A "class 1 electric bicycle," or "low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle," is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> How can you claim it is a class 1 bike when the motor provides assistance when it isn't being pedaled?
> 
> (1) A "class 1 electric bicycle," or "low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle," is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.


I love how you only showed my "yes", totally took it out of context. You are a definition of an anti-ebike person. 
Walk mode is only designed to be used for walking and not enough power for anything else, so the ebike is not being ridden during this mode. To be a rider, you need to be on the bike, if you are walking a bike, you are no longer a rider. Still clearly a class 1 bike!


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> I love how you only showed my "yes", totally took it out of context. You are a definition of an anti-ebike person.
> Walk mode is only designed to be used for walking and not enough power for anything else, so the ebike is not being ridden during this mode. Still clearly a class 1 bike!


Where in the "strict regulations" that you reference for Class 1 bikes is it stated that motor assistance in walk mode only = Class 1 bike?

Your opinion, that is contrary to the published regulations, isn't enough to make an electric motor bike with a walk mode "clearly a Class 1 bike!"

Please provide proof for your claim.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> Where in the "strict regulations" that you reference for Class 1 bikes is it stated that motor assistance in walk mode only = Class 1 bike?
> 
> Your opinion, that is contrary to the published regulations, isn't enough to make an electric motor bike with a walk mode "clearly a Class 1 bike!"
> 
> Please provide proof for your claim.





og-mtb said:


> How can you claim it is a class 1 bike when the motor provides assistance when it isn't being pedaled?
> 
> (1) A "class 1 electric bicycle," or "low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle," *is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling*, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.


You defined it for me and I've seen it around the internet as well. "*is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the RIDER is pedaling*". In Walk mode, you are no longer a *RIDER*. Sorry, friend but that's not an opinion but fact. Still a class 1 ebike!


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> You defined it for me and I've seen it around the internet as well. "*is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the RIDER is pedaling*". In Walk mode, you are no longer a *RIDER*. Sorry, friend but that's not an opinion but fact. Still a class 1 ebike!


So in walk mode you aren't a rider. Got it.

You're not a rider, so you can't pedal the electric motor bicycle and the motor is being used exclusively to power the bike in walk mode.

Do I have that right?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

mtbbiker said:


> Yes, with no rider on the bike. Walk mode does not have enough power to move with a rider on the bike. At least that is how it was on the Intense Tazer and I'm sure because of the strict regulations on Class 1 bikes, they are all that way.


Brose puts out 100w, which is more than I can manage sometimes.

https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/intermittent-walk-assist-on-levo-kenevo.1291/


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> So in walk mode you aren't a rider. Got it.
> 
> You're not a rider, so you can't pedal the electric motor bicycle and the motor is being used exclusively to power the bike in walk mode.
> 
> Do I have that right?


If a rider can't clear a technical climb or downhill, and has to walk it. Can that rider say he rode it? Pretty clear to me, what being a rider is and walking next to a bike is.

Why are you making walk mode so difficult to understand? 
It's walk mode with a top speed of walking. What idiot would ride their ebike in walk mode when you have perfectly good forward modes: eco, trail, boost? Still clearly a class 1 ebike

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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> If a rider can't clear a technical climb or downhill, and has to walk it. Can that rider say he rode it? Pretty clear to me, what being a rider is and walking next to a bike is.
> 
> Why are you making walk mode so difficult to understand?
> It's walk mode with a top speed of walking. What idiot would ride their ebike in walk mode when you have perfectly good forward modes: eco, trail, boost? Still clearly a class 1 ebike
> ...


You didn't answer my question. I made no mention of riding a bike in walk mode. Don't know why you're off on that tangent.

In walk mode, you're obviously not riding. You're not pedaling. Got it. Again.

The bike is being exclusively propelled by the motor.

That's the definition of a Class 2 electric motor bicycle according to those "strict regulations" that you mentioned.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> You didn't answer my question. I made no mention of riding a bike in walk mode. Don't know why you're off on that tangent.
> 
> In walk mode, you're obviously not riding. You're not pedaling. Got it. Again.
> 
> ...


It's not designed to be pedalled in walk mode. What idiot would ride their ebike in walk mode when there are way better modes designed for going forward? And I'm sure once the ebike senses a pedal input, I bet it shuts the motor off! Still clearly a class 1 ebike. My friend, you are really reaching!


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Harryman said:


> Brose puts out 100w, which is more than I can manage sometimes.
> 
> https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/intermittent-walk-assist-on-levo-kenevo.1291/


I read that thread and thanks for the clarification. What I gathered is you need to walk a few feet, before the motor kicks in, it can get up to a 100 watt, until it reach a max speed of 3.7mph and then the motor cuts off. I'm sure it also cuts the motor off, if it sees pedal input. 
Walk mode is designed to walk next to the bike and not intended to be used as a riding mode.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> It's not designed to be pedalled in walk mode. What idiot would ride their ebike in walk mode when there are way better modes designed for going forward? And I'm sure once the ebike senses a pedal input, I bet it shuts the motor off! Still clearly a class 1 ebike. My friend, you are really reaching!


Again, you're hung up on riding in walk mode for some odd reason.

I am clearly not discussing riding when in walk mode.

I am merely noting that you've admitted that the bike is being exclusively propelled by the motor in walk mode - which is the definition of a Class 2 electric motor bicycle.

Just the facts.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> How do you restart on a steep hill without a throttle?


Welcome to the club, I can't restart on a steep hill on my bicycle.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> Again, you're hung up on riding in walk mode for some odd reason.
> 
> I am clearly not discussing riding when in walk mode.
> 
> ...


My friend you sure are stubborn, the dislike for ebikes is strong in you. But wait until you come out of the closet, I know deep down, you love ebikes. This forum seems to be your home away from home:thumbsup:

And you are clearly trying to make walk mode something else:thumbsup: In Walk mode the bike is being propelled by the motor and the person walking next to it. Not by its own:thumbsup: There you have it, still clearly a class 1 Ebike!

Thanks to Harryman, he pointed to post that summarized walk mode:thumbsup:
To activate walk mode:
* Keep on/off button Pressed.
* Must walk next to your bike a few feet.
* 3.7mph top speed and up to 100 watts.

Items that takes the bike out of walk mode (motor shuts off):
* Letting go of the on/off switch
* Speeds greater than 3.7mph
* pedal input

There you go, you can't pedal an ebike in Walk mode Still clearly a class 1 ebike:thumbsup:
Your argument is getting weaker by the minute!


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> My friend you sure are stubborn, the dislike for ebikes is strong in you. But wait until you come out of the closet, I know deep down, you love ebikes. This forum seems to be your home away from home


This is really odd, for a number of reasons - I'm not your friend, I don't know you. You assume that I dislike electric motor bicycles, I'm ambivalent. That I have some secret affection for electric motor bicycles, I'm ambivalent. That spending a few minutes a day, about the same amount of time that you appear to, makes this my home away from home, this is silly.

I'm just questioning your repeated claims that a bike with a throttle that can exclusively propel itself using its motor is "clearly a Class 1 bike." Again, thanks for your admission.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> How do you restart on a steep hill without a throttle?


 I call them pedals.....


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

leeboh said:


> I call them pedals.....


Yup.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

tahoebeau said:


> I personally am not interested in an ebike unless it has a throttle given that the only places to ride ebikes on singletrack where I live do not have any restrictions regarding the class. So no reason to not have the option to ride without pedaling.


Hacking your e-bike with a throttle isn't a huge obstacle. It's not like you are the only person who looked at the battery and motor on an e-bike and came the conclusion that the pedals were not all that necessary to forward motion.

Just remember to spin your legs a bit if you ride somewhere you aren't supposed to have a throttle.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

leeboh said:


> I call them pedals.....


 Sorry, but I don't do pedals. Just ghost pedaling to activate the PAS......


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> This is really odd, for a number of reasons - I'm not your friend, I don't know you. You assume that I dislike electric motor bicycles, I'm ambivalent. That I have some secret affection for electric motor bicycles, I'm ambivalent. That spending a few minutes a day, about the same amount of time that you appear to, makes this my home away from home, this is silly.
> 
> I'm just questioning your repeated claims that a bike with a throttle that can exclusively propel itself using its motor is "clearly a Class 1 bike." Again, thanks for your admission.


OG, you're a fellow cyclist and outdoor enthusiast so of course you are my friend. If I knew you or not and came across you on the trail I say hi to you and make small talk! This is how I got some of my best friends! As a matter fact, I do the same with a hiker, dog walker, dirt biker, etc..

We all agree there is a strict guidelines for class 1 ebikes. Do you think Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, Specialized, Giant, Intense, Scott, Norco, etc... just decided one day, hey let's put walk mode into our bikes? Do you have any understanding of the potential fines they all would face by breaking these guidelines?

I'll give you a real world example of someone intentionally breaking strict rules from the car world! VW and their diesels emissions. They intentional went around the rules, and intentional hide the real emissions results for years. Every government went after them, head executives got fired, cost them most likely billions in fines.

What do you think the governments would do to ebikes producers who put walk modes into their bikes, if it was more than just walk mode?

OG, my fellow brother and friend, you keep making your case weaker and weaker and just proving my point. Walk mode is just that, used for walking only. Still clearly a Class 1 ebike!


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

mtbbiker said:


> Any of the post who doesn't understand walk mode, as it is only a simple on/off button that can only take a bike up to walking speed and I'm sure it limits the torque to maybe 10% torque. If you see it different, then you are definitely anti-ebike. An anti-ebike person will only see what they want to see and nothing else.
> 
> The shuttle mode, you still need to pedal, no throttle. Class 1 is still clearly intact and here to stay.


How does pointing out that the new levo is technically a class 2 make anyone anti-ebike?

Ya, it is not very practical as a class 2 with a top speed of only about 4 mph using the using thumb throttle, but not being practical doesn't stop it from being what it is. The video clearly shows the biker riding the ebike that is being propelled purely by the button thumb throttle which specialized calls walk assist. The speed he is going or the grade he is on is not relevant to determining the class of the ebike. If the ebike motor can propel the rider without the rider pedaling, then class 2 by definition. And before you get all worked up over trying to argue against logic, please explain why the new levo being a class 2 is such an issue for you. What do you care if it is a class 2 or not?

Also, I ride ebikes ranging from 1k to over 10k many times a year. I am planning on buying or building an ebike hopefully for this summer. So how am I anti-ebike?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Just like you would on a non ebike.

I think the answer begs the question, ie if you can't get started on a hill because it's too steep you either:

1) Walk
2) Try, try, try again
3) Turn around and go down

What I don't understand is why this situation necessitates the need for a throttle. The walk mode gives the rider assistance to walk up a hill they can't climb, which is quite reasonable.

If you can't ride up a particular hill, do what I do: repeat until you can it or ride elsewhere.

Ebikes are not designed to be motos, blur that line and the anti ebiker contingent will have your arse.

There's nothing wrong with having an ebike and a moto, they serve different needs, but like a non ebike, you need to make sure you use them legally.



WoodlandHills said:


> How do you restart on a steep hill without a throttle?


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

singletrackmack said:


> How does pointing out that the new levo is technically a class 2 make anyone anti-ebike?
> 
> ....Please explain why the new levo being a class 2 is such an issue for you. What do you care if it is a class 2 or not?


I would love to here those that are getting all worked up over the new levo being technically a class 2 explain these questions.

As Mack pointed out, there are some really sensitive and thin skinned people around here.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

singletrackmack said:


> How does pointing out that the new levo is technically a class 2 make anyone anti-ebike?
> 
> Ya, it is not very practical as a class 2 with a top speed of only about 4 mph using the using thumb throttle, but not being practical doesn't stop it from being what it is. The video clearly shows the biker riding the ebike that is being propelled purely by the button thumb throttle which specialized calls walk assist. The speed he is going or the grade he is on is not relevant to determining the class of the ebike. If the ebike motor can propel the rider without the rider pedaling, then class 2 by definition. And before you get all worked up over trying to argue against logic, please explain why the new levo being a class 2 is such an issue for you. What do you care if it is a class 2 or not?
> 
> Also, I ride ebikes ranging from 1k to over 10k many times a year. I am planning on buying or building an ebike hopefully for this summer. So how am I anti-ebike?


It is clearly a Class 1 ebike. Walk mode is not a self propelled mode. In walk mode you need two things to propel the bike forward: a rider has to starting pushing the bike in walk mode, then the assist comes on. You can't have one without the other unless you stage it like in the video. Funny you don't see what led up to that scene you are mentioning, because am sure he first started out walking next to it.


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

mtbbiker said:


> It is clearly a Class 1 ebike....because am sure he first started out walking next to it.


And how can you be sure of this? Have you rode the new levo? In the video shows it being propelled by the walk assist. That is what we know. As pointed out, it may not be practical, but that doesn't matter.

However, regardless of all that, what does it matter if in fact the Levo is a class 2? Why do you care so much?


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## shortbutfunky (Mar 5, 2014)

tahoebeau said:


> However, regardless of all that, what does it matter if in fact the Levo is a class 2? Why do you care so much?


Really good question. Why the f does it matter so much if it is a class 2 or not?



mtbbiker said:


> In walk mode you need two things to propel the bike forward: a rider has to starting pushing the bike in walk mode, then the assist comes on. You can't have one without the other unless you stage it like in the video.


All ebikes are different. The walk mode on one brand/model is different from another. So unless you have ridden this model of ebike in the video, you don't know what you're talking about.

I am trying to imaging how the rider got on the bike to get it going using the thumb throttle walk assist. I would guess he sat on the bike, maybe pushed off with his feet to get some momentum and balance and get his feet up on the bars and then pushed the walk throttle button to keep it going and have it continue to propel him.

Although, how he got it going is irrelivent. What matters is whether or not the motor is propelling him without pedaling and the vid clearly shows that, but again, why the f does it matter if it is a class 2?

You're are starting to sound like you are anti-class 2 ebike.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

shortbutfunky said:


> Really good question. Why the f does it matter so much if it is a class 2 or not?
> 
> All ebikes are different. The walk mode on one brand/model is different from another. So unless you have ridden this model of ebike in the video, you don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> ...


That's the problem with the video, it doesn't show the before. I can guarantee you, he didn't just push the walk assist button and off the bike went. He manipulated that mode for dramatic affect and it worked! Got the people leaning anti ebikes foaming at the mouth!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mtbbiker said:


> Got the people leaning anti ebikes foaming at the mouth!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When e-motorbikers tout the law to try and support their "rights" to trails you should expect the nuances of the law to be used in attempts to deny it as well.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Harryman said:


> Their lobbyists wrote the laws to begin with, at this point, they're stuck with them. The reason they're pushing for only class 1 access on trails is that seeing someone pedal an emtb up a climb at 8 mph doesn't freak people out like someone coasting up a climb at 8 mph using a throttle. That's it.


Too bad everyone doesn't share that same opinion about e-assist pedal climbing vs. throttle climbing.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

NEPMTBA said:


> Yes, it will follow the American way, but as I have said time and agian, no matter what we talk here, inforcement wont happen. Only high traffic near city areas will see rules enforced.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


This is not just true about e-bikes. It's with everything.

Hardly any rules about anything in a rural area. Stop signs, RR crossing signs, turn signs, yield signs, all happily shot up for decades by beer drinking hicks in those areas, never replaced. No one cares. Who cares about what bike someone's one if they don't even care about illegal defacement of govt. property?

Compare that to a suburban area where walking and biking trails are surrounded by 50,000 person neighborhoods. Now, all of a sudden a lot of people care about a lot of things. Soccer moms with families that are overprotected. Much more environmentally conscious people in a city compared to BFE. The anti-ebike laws there are simply a side-effect of the overbearing bureaucracy that has a million rules about everything. Most rules mean well, many are just a waste of stamped paper.


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## shortbutfunky (Mar 5, 2014)

mtbbiker said:


> He manipulated that mode for dramatic affect and it worked! Got the people leaning anti ebikes foaming at the mouth! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, that is what you do with throttles. You need to manipulate them to activate the motor to propel you.

Regardless, the vast majority of ebikes are class 2. So seriously, please explain why pointing out that the new levo is a class 2 is anti-ebike.


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## Phantomtracer (Jan 13, 2004)

NEPMTBA said:


> And, I could simulate, by pedalling and being using the button at the same time. Who would know?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Guys, are you really trying to make the point that people are going to be pushing a button to go 5-6 mph and that is the same think as a thottle. Has anyone here tried to ride the bike in walk assist? With the weight of a full grown man I don't think it would have enough power to move at all.

It's sad to see people hate on a product that has a lot of benefits for the mt community. Very narrow minded to think it's a bad thing.
In stead of using your energy trying to hate, let's figure out how a influx of new blood to the sport can help us open more trails.


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## Phantomtracer (Jan 13, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> The walk assist is not set at approximately 1mph.
> 
> View attachment 1237332
> 
> ...


Lol!!!
It's 3.7mph not 1mph, really?
That's your argument. 
Sad


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

shortbutfunky said:


> Yes, that is what you do with throttles. You need to manipulate them to activate the motor to propel you.
> 
> Regardless, the vast majority of ebikes are class 2. So seriously, please explain why pointing out that the new levo is a class 2 is anti-ebike.


In your opinion, an on/off switch is now considered a throttle?

If you can't see the anti ebike tone in this post then there's not much else to discuss. Hopefully, you'll come around.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> OG, you're a fellow cyclist and outdoor enthusiast so of course you are my friend. If I knew you or not and came across you on the trail I say hi to you and make small talk! This is how I got some of my best friends! As a matter fact, I do the same with a hiker, dog walker, dirt biker, etc..
> 
> We all agree there is a strict guidelines for class 1 ebikes. Do you think Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, Specialized, Giant, Intense, Scott, Norco, etc... just decided one day, hey let's put walk mode into our bikes? Do you have any understanding of the potential fines they all would face by breaking these guidelines?
> 
> ...


Walk mode is disabled on my Yamaha-powered Haibike SDURO. I met the Yamaha Product manager for the USA, Drew Englemann, at a Yamaha Bike demo. Drew told me that even though the walk button was still present on my bike the controller hardware didn't have a connection for it , and showed me his fleet of Yamaha bikes with that button no longer present on the handlebars. He further explained that Yamaha had decided to remove walk mode because that was an access point for dongle manufacturers who might use the feature to modify the bike's behavior.

He was also interested in how I used my bike, why I'd moved the display to the forward position; the choice of gearing I'd made, etc.

Personally, I had wondered whether the throttle button made the bike class II but I didn't really need to know because in Arizona where eBikes are allowed class I and class II are treated the same.

Pedalling adds a lot more power to the bike; I, 61 years old, rode with a power meter yesterday afternoon and was usually around 130 watts on slightly uphill sections but for short bursts uphill I was making up to 400 watts; usually accelerating out of a twisty section after the trail straightened out I would briefly hit around 200 watts; I wasn't in any big hurry or working especially hard. I'd guess that a throttle-only class II eBike would be considerably slower and less fun and burn the battery down very quickly.

Class II is probably most useful for someone with severe disability, advanced age, or a giant streak of laziness. I've often seen a forty-something riding an eBike in the park taking his dog out for a run without pedaling. That guy.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm just having trouble figuring out who the hell (besides someone who is severely disabled) is so epicly weak and lame that they can't even manage to roll their bike along next to them without motor assist?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

mtbbiker said:


> It is clearly a Class 1 ebike. Walk mode is not a self propelled mode. In walk mode you need two things to propel the bike forward: a rider has to starting pushing the bike in walk mode, then the assist comes on. You can't have one without the other unless you stage it like in the video. Funny you don't see what led up to that scene you are mentioning, because am sure he first started out walking next to it.


So, I looked into it, and clearly, once a rider stops riding an ebike, legally, they become a hiker, and the ebike, an ehike. The ehike legislation is specific, "the motor can only provide assist while the hiker is bipedal". Therefore, if you're hiking, you can use the ehike to assist you pushing a button, thumb throttle, twist throttle, etc.

Actually, no, I just made all that up. You're stuck with the Class 1 legislation that makes no allowances for other ways to turn the motor on besides pedaling. You can be standing beside it, walking beside it, balancing on the seat on your head, but if you don't pedal, the motor can't provide assist and still adhere to the law. There aren't any exemptions, which is why it hinges on the word "only". You can argue it's not Class 2, I'm not sure why, but you can't argue that it's Class 1.

I agree that walk assist is not meant for anything except driving your ebike up hills while you walk along side it, and outside of a party trick, it's pretty useless for anything else. It doesn't matter what it is meant for, it's existence still puts it out of compliance for Class 1.



mtbbiker said:


> We all agree there is a strict guidelines for class 1 ebikes. Do you think Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, Specialized, Giant, Intense, Scott, Norco, etc... just decided one day, hey let's put walk mode into our bikes? Do you have any understanding of the potential fines they all would face by breaking these guidelines?


When the Class 1-3 laws were enacted in CA, and then introduced in other states around the country, like now, all of the purpose build emtbs on sale were EU spec ebikes (250w 15.5mph) that were simply adjusted via software settings to the higher 20mph cuttoff that the new laws allowed. At the time, many of the EU etmbs also had walk assist, but the manufacturers disabled it in the software in the US, since it wasn't allowed according to Class 1 legislations. After a while, US emtb riders figured out what they were missing and bitched about having to push their heavy ebikes while the EU riders didn't, leading to people trying to figure it out how to enable it on their own, or getting shops to do it. Eventually, the bike companies just started shipping them with it enabled.

There are no significant fines faced by ebike manufacturers in the US for mislabeling their ebikes. They, like everyone else knows no one is checking, so they dont really care. They don't really care that anyone is free to bypass the speed cutoff, they haven't done anything effective to stop it. I expect them to play fast and loose with all of their legal parameters going into the future, they'll give people what they want, they just want to sell ebikes.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tahoebeau said:


> So I see that the new Levo with the walk assist and shuttle mode make it so you no longer have to pedal to ride making the new Levo a class 2. I was wondering if you all think that this is the new direction for the embt industry?
> 
> I personally am not interested in an ebike unless it has a throttle given that the only places to ride ebikes on singletrack where I live do not have any restrictions regarding the class. So no reason to not have the option to ride without pedaling. I do realize that the "throttle" on the new levo is pretty limited with a max speed of something like 5 mph, but the way the industry goes with more power every year I am sure that will increase steadily. Plus, if it is a class 2 anyways, why not make it so the throttle goes all the way up to the max speed limit of 20mph?
> 
> *edit: added this vid so you can see ridding a Levo without pedaling using the walk assist throttle. This makes it a class 2 by definition of the law.


Weekly "stir the pot" post.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Walk assist is that powerful? Sweet. Actually heard reports that it was useless, or disabled by some mfgers. F pushing up 50 lbs up a hill. If I ever demo a Levo, I'm going to try testing the walk assist just like that. Looks almost faster than walking speed up the hill. Sped up video in the side perspective? The cranks look like they're spinning pretty fast.


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## Phantomtracer (Jan 13, 2004)

Forget about class 1,2 or 3 I’m taking my dirt bike on some singletrack!


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

"The cranks look like they're spinning pretty fast."

Which brings up the query of why the heck the cranks are spinning at all? Seems like they would be whacking your gastrocnemius every revolution. I guess you could turn your shin guards around to soften the blow. 

In a way, as a Class 2 cyclist, I find it highly mystifying as to why people think that throttles are such a threat. They don't have any effect on the motor output level of a legal bike, as in using one doesn't suddenly activate after burners. As noted if someone chooses to use it exclusively they will wear out their wh's in half the time and be missing the whole idea of riding a bike to begin with. Their loss but shouldn't bother others. 

I find mine useful for starting off in some situations, as a hike assist (my cranks don't rotate under throttle power) and the odd blip to maintain momentum. Probably works out to less than 1/2% of my riding time overall. But for that it doesn't add hardly any weight to my system, a bit of wire and a plastic thumb throttle is all. So to me worth having on board. 

Prior to the manufacturer backed, via their mouthpiece PFB, Class laws based on the EU regs that chose to exclude them, throttles on eBikes were not at all listed in the Federal or State regulations and existed without anyone complaining because eBikes didn't just come along in the last few years, they have been here for over 20 years.


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

tahoebeau said:


> ...
> I personally am not interested in an ebike unless it has a throttle given that the only places to ride ebikes on singletrack where I live do not have any restrictions regarding the class. So no reason to not have the option to ride without pedaling...


You will be seeing more ebikes of all classes, but I suspect mostly class 1.

It sounds like what you want is a class 3 ebike. Plenty of 'em available, just not from S,T, etc. Maybe an eMoto like an Electric Motion Escape?









My Beta loves singletrack, and yes the Kern River Trail (above) is motorized-mut. Come on over to the darkside. ;-)

BRAAAP!

Catfish ...


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Weekly "stir the pot" post.


Wow, your one to talk about stirring the pot. That is really, really funny coming from someone who has numerous threads that they themselves started on this forum that have been either closed or moved.

You even have thread right now complaining about your threads being moved... that is now being moved!!! :lol:


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

mtbbiker said:


> In your opinion, an on/off switch is now considered a throttle?


If we are to go by the definition of the word, then it is not my opinion. Please look it up.

But if you don't, basically a throttle is something you push, pull, twist or whatever that activates the motor. This is at the most basic level here so we can keep to the definition for you.

Now it does get more complicated when you start talking about most being variable, which I don't think my 3 year old nephew understands, but he understands the basic concept of a throttle with his remote control car that has 4 arrow buttons. Push the forward arrow button and the car moves forward. Let go of the button and it stops moving forward. Push the walk-throttle button on the levo and it moves forward. Let go of the button and the levo stops moving forward.

That is as basic as you can get when defining the word "throttle"



mtbbiker said:


> If you can't see the anti ebike tone in this post then there's not much else to discuss. Hopefully, you'll come around.


I do see your anti-ebike tone in your post and that you have given to this thread in your other posts here. What bothers you seems to be the positive posts about ebikes on this thread, but those posts aren't about the kind of ebike you like apparenty. Hopefully you'll come around to realizing that class 2 ebikes are ebikes just as class 1 ebikes are and you stop this elitist attitude of "oh, I have to pedal in order to get my motor to start, it's not like I am just pushing a button with my thumb to get it to go"

Also, I don't have any reason to come around to excluding class 2 ebikes like you seem to want to since the only place to ride ebikes on non-motorized, single-track trails up here in beautiful Lake Tahoe has no restrictions regarding throttles. So I will continue to be positive about class 2 ebikes.

And you keep calling out people for being anti-ebike for pointing out that the new levo is technically (while not practical) a class 2. If your going to do that again then please explain why you consider saying that "the new levo is a class 2" to be anti-bike?

You and other class 1 elitist have been avoiding answering this for some reason.


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

motocatfish said:


> You will be seeing more ebikes of all classes, but I suspect mostly class 1.
> 
> It sounds like what you want is a class 3 ebike. Plenty of 'em available, just not from S,T, etc. Maybe an eMoto like an Electric Motion Escape?
> 
> ...


Nice! I am actually looking at some Luna conversions kits. They have a new torque sensing one that will be coming soon with a throttle and an available 52v kit as well. I want to keep it a 750w rated motor to keep it legal for some of the local trails. Plus, from what I've read, I can get more power if needed out of one without issue as other users have posted in this forum showing their 750w nominal motors running over 750 watts with a more powerful controller without overheating the motor, all while staying legal. :thumbsup:

As far as most ebikes in the future, I don't see us ebikers changing what we currently like and start buying ebikes without throttles. Almost all ebikes being sold today have throttles. It is only niche ebikes like the levo that do not have throttles. I rent bikes here in Tahoe in the summer for tourist and our ebikes have throttles as that is what the tourist want and expect from ebikes. And pretty much all commuter and light duty mtbs have throttles.

And given that most all ebikes today are sold with throttles I ask if class# 1 ebikes will go away. Seeing specialized move in the direction of throttles with the new shuttle mode which is in essence a soft pedal mode and given that vast majority of people starting out with ebikes will start with one that has a throttle; I think when those whom choose to advance to off-road and go to buy a more mtb oriented ebike, throttle will be a must for them since that is how they learned to ride an ebike. This will make class 1 embts a tougher sell.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

mtbbiker said:


> If you see it different, then you are definitely anti-ebike.


reminds me of a past US President, " you are either with us or against us"

funny thread though 

and just to stir the pot


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tahoebeau said:


> Wow, your one to talk about stirring the pot. That is really, really funny coming from someone who has numerous threads that they themselves started on this forum that have been either closed or moved.
> 
> You even have thread right now complaining about your threads being moved... that is now being moved!!! :lol:
> 
> View attachment 1237538


Yeah, to keep all ebike threads, in the ebike section, smart? Also, I've been riding ebikes for 3 years and have 5 in my garage. There's a difference between an actual owner/rider and the rest that all have opinions... uh is 2mph walk a class 1 still? Who gives a ****, go ride. If it's not throwing roost, I'm cool with it. Let's all stop dancing around on our fragile ice ponds and pound some dirt. It is dirt for Christ sake. Buncha weenies.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Also, why start a thread here after you post this?


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

cmg said:


> reminds me of a past US President, " you are either with us or against us"
> 
> funny thread though
> 
> and just to stir the pot


I wondered when the "you didn't earn the right to be up here" whine would be introduced. And right on time here it is.....


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

WoodlandHills said:


> I wondered when the "you didn't earn the right to be up here" whine would be introduced. And right on time here it is.....


butt hurt?
btw, hook line & sinker


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm just having trouble figuring out who the hell (besides someone who is severely disabled) is so epicly weak and lame that they can't even manage to roll their bike along next to them without motor assist?


Have you ever ridden the Slickrock Trail in Moab? There are pitches almost no one can ride, even a class 1 ebike, because they are so steep, and they have infinite traction. Try pushing a 50lb bike up one of those sections. You'll be reaching for the walk button in about 10 feet.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

cmg said:


> reminds me of a past US President, " you are either with us or against us"
> 
> funny thread though
> 
> and just to stir the pot





cmg said:


> butt hurt?
> btw, hook line & sinker


 Not sure what the point of that was since I haven't been on a pedal mountain bike since I got my first ebike. And being 65, any women that I might want to go riding with would choose an eMTB over a pushMTB everytime. I've also found that girls in their 30's and 40's that have been on my eMTB's really prefer the throttle on the Class 2 over the Class 1. Could their lack of testosterone be increasing their common sense?


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

really?


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## motocatfish (Mar 12, 2016)

tahoebeau said:


> ...
> Plus, from what I've read, I can get more power if needed out of one without issue as other users have posted in this forum showing their 750w nominal motors running over 750 watts with a more powerful controller without overheating the motor, all while staying legal. :thumbsup:


"They" hate it when we discuss such things here, but I agree with you. My Sondors Thin (eRoadie) has 350w nominal motor, and came with 350w/36v controller+battery combo. And a thumb throttle. Class 2 with its 20mph speed limit. Cheap.

20A controller+display from Luna with big 48V battery upgrade. 750w/28mph class 3 now. Range improved from 20-22 miles to over 50.

With saddlebags+rack & rok straps, its my grocery/hardware/gym/rei errand ride. 



tahoebeau said:


> ...
> It is only niche ebikes like the levo that do not have throttles. I rent bikes here in Tahoe in the summer for tourist and our ebikes have throttles as that is what the tourist want and expect from ebikes. And pretty much all commuter and light duty mtbs have throttles.
> ...


Ah, the rental perspective. Thanks! I do not doubt that ebike renters that learn of throttles will require them.

Class 1 came from euro definition, and it included pedal AND walk assist. But the initial USA manuf disabled walk assist because of the fear of it being call a throttle. D'OH!

I own a 2017 Trek Powerfly, and its in the shop for the 3rd attempt to get walk assist un-disabled. D'OH!

Those of us who live in the bay area & other places where only class-1 emtbs are beginning to be allowed on bike trails, that's where you see folks like me buying class-1 to ride legal locally.









Its when the trailer is filled with tools & stuff that I wish I had walk assist. Sometimes I have to hike-a-bike+trailer with my new knee and that just sux!

The traditional mtb manufacturers will probably stay class-1 until they see acceptance of class-3 legally and in personal sales. Who knows how long that will take.

Good luck with the rental business! 

Catfish ...


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

motocatfish said:


> You will be seeing more ebikes of all classes, but I suspect mostly class 1.
> 
> It sounds like what you want is a class 3 ebike. Plenty of 'em available, just not from S,T, etc. Maybe an eMoto like an Electric Motion Escape?


Class 3 is just a Class 1 with the speed cut off upped to 28mph. Anything above that in power and speed is treated as a moped or moto in most places.

"(3) A "class 3 electric bicycle," or "speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle," is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour, and equipped with a speedometer."

If I had the money to spare, I'd just buy a Sur Ron, since ebikes are limited almost exclusively to moto trails around here, why screw around?


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

tahoebeau said:


> As far as most ebikes in the future, I don't see us ebikers changing what we currently like and start buying ebikes without throttles. Almost all ebikes being sold today have throttles. It is only niche ebikes like the levo that do not have throttles.
> 
> ....that vast majority of people starting out with ebikes will start with one that has a throttle; I think when those whom choose to advance to off-road and go to buy a more mtb oriented ebike, throttle will be a must for them since that is how they learned to ride an ebike. This will make class 1 embts a tougher sell.


I think this is spot on. As ebikes become more popular and with most all coming with throttles as they always have, I also think people will have a difficult time trying to understand why the "niche" ebikes from mtb manufactures cost so much, but don't even come with a throttle option. That will not fly with 99% of ebike customers making class 1 of any kind a hard sell.



Harryman said:


> Class 3 is just a Class 1 with the speed cut off upped to 28mph. Anything above that in power and speed is treated as a moped or moto in most places.
> 
> ...If I had the money to spare, I'd just buy a Sur Ron, since ebikes are limited almost exclusively to moto trails around here, why screw around?


Sun ron looks fun, but may look too much like a moto I think for most ebikers. But, since you mentioned "if I had the money to spare", I think most people buying an ebike will be trying to get the most bang for the buck given how expensive they are. And that means comparing features. And face it, a throttle will start to become even more of an expected standard feature for the masses.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Have you ever ridden the Slickrock Trail in Moab? There are pitches almost no one can ride, even a class 1 ebike, because they are so steep, and they have infinite traction. Try pushing a 50lb bike up one of those sections. You'll be reaching for the walk button in about 10 feet.


I don't have any interest in a climbing a 50lb bike.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

singletrackmack said:


> Sun ron looks fun, but may look too much like a moto I think for most ebikers.


Yeah, I wasn't proposing that it's an ebike, because it's not, it's really a mtb sized electric moto. Which seems like fun to me at half the cost of a decent emtb, especially since there's no point in owning an emtb here anyway.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

motocatfish said:


> You will be seeing more ebikes of all classes, but I suspect mostly class 1.
> 
> It sounds like what you want is a class 3 ebike. Plenty of 'em available, just not from S,T, etc. Maybe an eMoto like an Electric Motion Escape?
> 
> ...


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

sfgiantsfan said:


> motocatfish said:
> 
> 
> > You will be seeing more ebikes of all classes, but I suspect mostly class 1.
> ...


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> I don't have any interest in a climbing a 50lb bike.


Then you'll never get to experience descending on an ebike, which is completely awesome.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

motocatfish said:


> Those of us who live in the bay area & other places where only class-1 emtbs are beginning to be allowed on bike trails, that's where you see folks like me buying class-1 to ride legal locally.
> 
> View attachment 1237593


Shot: Posts photo of Class 1 ebike to show what folks buy locally to ride legally.

Chaser: Class 1 ebikes aren't legal in Walnut Creek Open Space.

Not a big deal from a MTB access standpoint (normal bikes are restricted to fireroads, dogs aren't allowed, etc. but there is zero enforcement), just a funny example to use.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

honkinunit said:


> Then you'll never get to experience descending on an ebike, which is completely awesome.


Hmmm....maybe he, like many folks who have been riding for a while, have experience with old school DH bikes which pushed those weights.

In comparison, today's lighter weight bikes are completely awesome.

The false narrative of "heavy is better" is one of the odder tropes of some of the electric motor bicycle crowd.

p.s. "There are pitches almost no one can ride, even a class 1 ebike, because they are so steep, and they have infinite traction." It sounds like you aren't riding at the right time or with the right people. Many folks clean the entire Slick Rock on normal bicycles.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I like to fuss over the geo tables, suspension kinematics, build quality, and spec of a mtb (e, or non-e), and how this translates to the trail. Can't do that with a moto (e or gasoline), can I? Is there much depth to riding a moto? I might try out out of curiosity. I've only ever ridden on some Honda Dream scooter thingee when visiting Asia.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

og-mtb said:


> Hmmm....maybe he, like many folks who have been riding for a while, have experience with old school DH bikes which pushed those weights.
> 
> In comparison, today's lighter weight bikes are completely awesome.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I did a ton of DHing bitd on way-too-heavy bikes. I have no interest in reliving the 50+ pound, 2blewides, Gazzi 3"s and Monster T days.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ninjichor said:


> I Is there much depth to riding a moto?


Joking?


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> Joking?


I've little prejudice, little experience, and little imagination.

What little I have, I can use to speculate to fill in what I don't know. Don't know the first place to research, and doubt I can deal with the hype vs humbleness in forming a clear perspective.

So far, after thinking a bit, I find it personally convincing that whatever complexity is lost, compared to MTB, just frees up attention to be redirected to something else. I can do all the things I can do on my MTB, if I put my mind to it, but is it as doable as it is on a bicycle, or more of a dream? What I can't convince myself, without confirmation, is the number of challenges that arise that are out of my control, or require a lot of investment (monetary, time, connections to other people, etc.) on my end to tackle, such as finding opportunities to enjoy the time spent on the thing.

One of the things keeping me attracted to MTB is the uniqueness of "racing" down a mountain on a wheeled vehicle. I just don't know if there's any attraction to moto that would hook me in a similar way. I prefer not to fill in what I don't know with poor sources of information, like my own imagination or just plain hearsay. First hand experience gives a realistic perspective, that supercedes all the nonsense hype, humbleness and speculation, but just not motivated to take that step. When I asked that question, i guess I was intending to ask what's the attraction to moto for others?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ninjichor said:


> When I asked that question, i guess I was intending to ask what's the attraction to moto for others?


Just like with mountain biking, riders are attracted to it for a variety of reasons, and there are many types and styles of 'moto' riding and machines.

Also, for those that like getting into the mechanical and tuning aspects, motos are far more advanced and complicated machines than MTBs in general.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> Hmmm....maybe he, like many folks who have been riding for a while, have experience with old school DH bikes which pushed those weights.
> 
> In comparison, today's lighter weight bikes are completely awesome.
> 
> ...


"Many" = maybe one out of 500.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

honkinunit said:


> "Many" = maybe one out of 500.


Nope. Not my experience nor observation when riding Slick Rock.

Again, it sounds like you aren't riding at the right time or with the right people.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

ninjichor said:


> I've little prejudice, little experience, and little imagination.
> 
> What little I have, I can use to speculate to fill in what I don't know. Don't know the first place to research, and doubt I can deal with the hype vs humbleness in forming a clear perspective.
> 
> ...


You'll just have to ride a moto to see what the attraction is. OH WAIT! I'm not allowed to use that line on this forum, because all the ebike deniers say they don't need to ride one to know exactly what they are all about.

I've been riding motos for longer than I've ridden MTBs, (over 40 years for motorcycles, almost 35 for MTB's). Riding a dirt bike fast on rough terrain is *way* more demanding physically than riding an MTB. That's why motocross riders are considered to be some the toughest athletes on the planet. It takes unimaginable skill, strength, stamina, and endurance to race a dirt bike. It works more of your body than MTB, and takes the same aerobic capacity, while demanding more anaerobic.

I gave up dirt bikes because the expense and hassle have gotten too high. Also, I hate going to the doctor.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> Nope. Not my experience nor observation when riding Slick Rock.
> 
> Again, it sounds like you aren't riding at the right time or with the right people.


I've been riding Slickrock since 1988. I *guarantee* if you put a video camera on all of the obstacles, not more than 1 out of 500 clean the entire trail. Clean = no dabs, and not deviating from the stripes by more than five feet. There are a lot of cheater lines people take and claim they "cleaned" the trail.

Sure, if you go with "the right people", they might *all* clean it. The average good rider? Nope. Especially if you go counter-clockwise on the lollipop.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

honkinunit said:


> I've been riding Slickrock since 1988. I *guarantee* if you put a video camera on all of the obstacles, not more than 1 out of 500 clean the entire trail.


You beat me by one year. I first rode Slick Rock in 1989.

Here is your claim:

"There are pitches almost no one can ride, even a class 1 ebike"

Are you really claiming that there are pitches on the trail which a video camera would show only 1 out of 500 people cleaning?


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Just like with mountain biking, riders are attracted to it for a variety of reasons, and there are many types and styles of 'moto' riding and machines.
> 
> Also, for those that like getting into the mechanical and tuning aspects, motos are far more advanced and complicated machines than MTBs in general.


My type of riding on a motorcycle was exploration; I had a DR 350S with a ginormous desert tank and trail gearing; I did lots of riding and camping in Owyhee County, Northern Nevada and Eastern Oregon and also used it to access trail heads in Central Idaho to backpack.

I was never interested in going into an OHV area and eating a lot of dust.

The comparisons between Class X eBikes and motorcycles here are ridiculous; if you want a dirt bike get one on Craig's list for half the price of an eBike.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

hikerdave said:


> My type of riding on a motorcycle was exploration; I had a DR 350S with a ginormous desert tank and trail gearing; I did lots of riding and camping in Owyhee County, Northern Nevada and Eastern Oregon and also used it to access trail heads in Central Idaho to backpack.


Sounds like a lot of fun; wish we had more moto access around here.

My son is into MX more than trail riding. Luckily have a track a couple towns away and some local landowners that are cool with sharing. Gonna pick up one of these this weekend. :thumbsup:


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> Sounds like a lot of fun; wish we had more moto access around here.
> 
> My son is into MX more than trail riding. Luckily have a track a couple towns away and some local landowners that are cool with sharing. Gonna pick up one of these this weekend.


I'm a moto guy through and through, but this thread just took a dump...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

NEPMTBA said:


> I'm a moto guy through and through, but this thread just took a dump...


Not a KTM fan?


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> You beat me by one year. I first rode Slick Rock in 1989.
> 
> Here is your claim:
> 
> ...


I am claiming that if you could video the entire ride of every rider, *maybe* one of out 500 would clean the entire trail. There is a huge difference between doing the entire trail at once without a dab or deviating from the stripes, and clearing all of the obstacles at one time or another and then claiming in your mind that you have cleaned the "entire trail". Hell, I've cleared every foot of that trail hundreds of times, but I have only done it continuously once.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

honkinunit said:


> I am claiming that if you could video the ride of every rider, *maybe* one of out 500 would clean the entire trail.


That's quite different than _"__There are pitches almost no one can ride, even a class 1 ebike" _


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> That's quite different than _"__There are pitches almost no one can ride, even a class 1 ebike" _


Trying it 100 times and making it once doesn't count.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

honkinunit said:


> Trying it 100 times and making it once doesn't count.


Again, that's not my experience nor what I have observed. It sounds like you're not riding it with the right folks or at the right times.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Braaaap. Motocross tracks will make a man out of you period. I’m still not quite a man but have been doing laps for 8 years. Although, I think I can turn a faster lap time and hit all my marks on my Focus or rigid Redline. Probably faster at MX Unleashed though..


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Sounds like a lot of fun; wish we had more moto access around here.
> 
> My son is into MX more than trail riding. Luckily have a track a couple towns away and some local landowners that are cool with sharing. Gonna pick up one of these this weekend. :thumbsup:


That bike looks like a lot of fun. I work on 360 video image stabilization IRL so I've seen quite a few moto videos from the rider's perspective.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

NEPMTBA said:


> I'm a moto guy through and through, but this thread just took a dump...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Sorry, but I can't help but respond to comments about dirt bikes. Probably my electric motor bicycle is a reminder of the glory of riding a dirt bike. Any normal kid given a choice between an eBike, a mountain bike or a dirt bike is going to choose the dirt bike; I still kind of miss my old Suzuki DR.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

hikerdave said:


> My type of riding on a motorcycle was exploration; I had a DR 350S with a ginormous desert tank and trail gearing; I did lots of riding and camping in Owyhee County, Northern Nevada and Eastern Oregon and also used it to access trail heads in Central Idaho to backpack.
> 
> I was never interested in going into an OHV area and eating a lot of dust.
> 
> The comparisons between Class X eBikes and motorcycles here are ridiculous; if you want a dirt bike get one on Craig's list for half the price of an eBike.


Owyhee County, Idaho, is bigger than Connecticut and Rhode Island combined, and about 3/4 of the size of Massachusetts but with only 17000 people, mostly concentrated into two small towns. The high desert is especially beautiful in the spring; wildflowers as far as you can see. The landscape is interrupted by many deep river gorges. It's a mind-blowing experience to wander around in the canyonlands; I took a four day off-trail backpacking trip on Memorial Day weekend out there once and saw no one else.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

hikerdave said:


> Sorry, but I can't help but respond to comments about dirt bikes. Probably my electric motor bicycle is a reminder of the glory of riding a dirt bike. Any normal kid given a choice between an eBike, a mountain bike or a dirt bike is going to choose the dirt bike; I still kind of miss my old Suzuki DR.


I completely agree with you. But this thread has run off topic, but in a way that since Im a super proponent of motos, my knees are weak to shut the thread down...lol

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> I've little prejudice, little experience, and little imagination...
> 
> I just don't know if there's any attraction to moto that would hook me in a similar way. I prefer not to fill in what I don't know with poor sources of information, like my own imagination or just plain hearsay. First hand experience gives a realistic perspective, that supercedes all the nonsense hype, humbleness and speculation, but just not motivated to take that step. When I asked that question, i guess I was intending to ask what's the attraction to moto for others?


My brother in law goes on many trips with his brother and friends with their 4x4 campers and motos. They spend all day on their motos exploring extremely rough terrain you would not be able to ride on an mtb. His brother used to compete in enduro dirt bike races and trials so they are into finding cool natural features to play on as well a exploring. Looking at the amount of land they are able to cover in one day that would take over a week on a mtb, the remoteness of it all and the fun of being with your friends out in the middle of nowhere riding narrow horse cut single-track trying to climb impossible chutes, getting air off of huge natural features, exploring hard to reach apline lakes, rivers, streams and snow, bringing whatever gear you need to fish or hunt and then heading back to camp for a fire and some beers and doing it all over again in a different spot the next day definitely has its appeal.

It is not for everyone though and watching the videos from his go pro it looks very intimidating with all the noise, exhaust, power at the flick of a wrist, dirt flying everywhere, a very heavy dirt bike sometimes falling back down a chute and people either trying to stop it from falling or doing what they can to get out of its way, mechanicals that are way more complicated than any mtb component break down (that really have to be fixed because you ain't carrying that moto out and you may far out from camp), all the extra tools and gear and protection that you need to wear, clothing/gear or legs being burned on hot exhaust, shifting gears, stalling out having to restart on a steep incline and probably many other things I can't think of because I have never gone.

That is just what I have seen from his pics, vids and stories and for me, is not how I like to explore nature. I like a more subtle, less noisy and less chaotic/rowdy approach to exploring or having fun in nature.



hikerdave said:


> My type of riding on a motorcycle was exploration; I had a DR 350S with a ginormous desert tank and trail gearing; I did lots of riding and camping in Owyhee County, Northern Nevada and Eastern Oregon and also used it to access trail heads in Central Idaho to backpack.
> 
> I was never interested in going into an OHV area and eating a lot of dust.


The exploring part is what interests me the most about ebikes. Luckily for me the ohv trails where I live are pretty quiet and there are some fun remote areas you can get to on them, but would take a very long time on an mtb with all the climbing. I like the idea of using an ebike for exploring these areas vs a full on moto. A throttle for the ebike is a must though as it would be really useful on the OHV and that non-moto trails that allow ebikes in this area have no throttle restrictions.

Also, having a throttle would be a good safety feature as a way to help get out incase of an injury. I do go riding after work alone and I have had a few close calls with knee and ankle injuries and have been lucky enough to limp my way along to get out, but if the injuries were worse you never know and it gets pretty cold out at night here. Even with emergency gear it could make for a scary situation. Being able to throttle out, even at slow speed incase of injury is not a bad option to have.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Sounds like a lot of fun; wish we had more moto access around here.
> 
> My son is into MX more than trail riding. Luckily have a track a couple towns away and some local landowners that are cool with sharing. Gonna pick up one of these this weekend. :thumbsup:


I'm sure your son is pumped. I had a ktm 150SX for awhile, fun little ripper. Now old, I'm running 1140cc more. Never grow up I guess, still think back to an anodized "Tuff Neck" on my BMX days. Bikes and motorcycles are awesome, couldn't live without them. But now ripping an ebike, what happened to me!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

singletrackmack said:


> My brother in law goes on many trips with his brother and friends with their 4x4 campers and motos. They spend all day on their motos exploring extremely rough terrain you would not be able to ride on an mtb. His brother used to compete in enduro dirt bike races and trials so they are into finding cool natural features to play on as well a exploring. Looking at the amount of land they are able to cover in one day that would take over a week on a mtb, the remoteness of it all and the fun of being with your friends out in the middle of nowhere riding narrow horse cut single-track trying to climb impossible chutes, getting air off of huge natural features, exploring hard to reach apline lakes, rivers, streams and snow, bringing whatever gear you need to fish or hunt and then heading back to camp for a fire and some beers and doing it all over again in a different spot the next day definitely has its appeal.
> 
> It is not for everyone though and watching the videos from his go pro it looks very intimidating with all the noise, exhaust, power at the flick of a wrist, dirt flying everywhere, a very heavy dirt bike sometimes falling back down a chute and people either trying to stop it from falling or doing what they can to get out of its way, mechanicals that are way more complicated than any mtb component break down (that really have to be fixed because you ain't carrying that moto out and you may far out from camp), all the extra tools and gear and protection that you need to wear, clothing/gear or legs being burned on hot exhaust, shifting gears, stalling out having to restart on a steep incline and probably many other things I can't think of because I have never gone.
> 
> ...


Good post, glad you're getting it. It's definately sketchy at times solo. I ride mostly solo myself, but always fun and safer in a group ride.


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

NEPMTBA said:


> I completely agree with you. But this thread has run off topic, but in a way that since Im a super proponent of motos, my knees are weak to shut the thread down...lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Mods are always going to have issues here with e-motos given ebikes are way more similar to e-motos than mountain bikes. The only difference between e-motos and ebikes is a few hundred watts. That is a fine line to walk.



singletrackmack said:


> It is not for everyone though and watching the videos from his go pro it looks very intimidating with all the noise, exhaust, power at the flick of a wrist, dirt flying everywhere, a very heavy dirt bike sometimes falling back down a chute and people either trying to stop it from falling or doing what they can to get out of its way, mechanicals that are way more complicated than any mtb component break down (that really have to be fixed because you ain't carrying that moto out and you may far out from camp), all the extra tools and gear and protection that you need to wear, clothing/gear or legs being burned on hot exhaust, shifting gears, stalling out having to restart on a steep incline and probably many other things I can't think of because I have never gone.
> 
> ...That is just what I have seen from his pics, vids and stories and for me, is not how I like to explore nature. I like a more subtle, less noisy and less chaotic/rowdy approach to exploring or having fun in nature.
> 
> Also, having a throttle would be a good safety feature as a way to help get out incase of an injury. I do go riding after work alone and I have had a few close calls with knee and ankle injuries and have been lucky enough to limp my way along to get out, but if the injuries were worse you never know and it gets pretty cold out at night here. Even with emergency gear it could make for a scary situation. Being able to throttle out, even at slow speed incase of injury is not a bad option to have.


I am with you on the aspects of moto that make it not for everyone and also like a more subtle approach to exporting nature.

Also, good points on having an ebike equiped with a throttle. It's not like you have to use it alll the time to not have one simply because (of what I can only assume the industry is worried about) image issues seems pretty silly.

Luckily there are more and more options popinjay up for embts every day. Here is the new torque sensing kit from Luna. 80nm of torque look so to be in line with the big $$$ embt brands. The throttle option looks to be coming soon and that is looking like one nice embt kit.


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

Gutch said:


> View attachment 1237550
> Also, why start a thread here after you post this?


Ha! Great comeback!

I would give you some pos rep, but guess I have been a little stingy with giving out the green turds lately... "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Gutch again."


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

tahoebeau said:


> Mods are always going to have issues here with e-motos given ebikes are way more similar to e-motos than mountain bikes. The only difference between e-motos and ebikes is a few hundred watts. That is a fine line to walk.
> 
> I am with you on the aspects of moto that make it not for everyone and also like a more subtle approach to exporting nature.
> 
> ...


Luna is late to the party with the Tongsheng; there are several other suppliers selling it in the US; I got the 750W 52 volt version (includes thumb throttle) last year from Recycles E-bike. Currently $399 w/o battery.

The Tongsheng's torque-sensing PAS works very well; aftermarket DIY torque-sensing systems can cost as much as this complete unit!


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

tahoebeau said:


> Mods are always going to have issues here with e-motos given ebikes are way more similar to e-motos than mountain bikes. The only difference between e-motos and ebikes is a few hundred watts. That is a fine line to walk.
> 
> I am with you on the aspects of moto that make it not for everyone and also like a more subtle approach to exporting nature.
> 
> ...


Pretty simple... motos have pegs not pedals!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

NEPMTBA said:


> Pretty simple... motos have pegs not pedals!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


So, then what? Is this an ebike or an e-moto?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Yes, I've ridden Slickrock on a mountain bike and on a mountain unicycle, neither was motorized, and I ride everything. Sure it's hard, but isn't that the point?

The reality is that very few people on this forum and very few ebikers have the skills and/or desire to ride Slickrock.

If you head out onto Slickrock without the necessary skills, walking your bike is the least of your worries.

Just get a moto if a throttle is so important.



honkinunit said:


> Have you ever ridden the Slickrock Trail in Moab? There are pitches almost no one can ride, even a class 1 ebike, because they are so steep, and they have infinite traction. Try pushing a 50lb bike up one of those sections. You'll be reaching for the walk button in about 10 feet.


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

nurse ben said:


> ...just get a moto if a motor is so important.


fify


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## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yes, I've ridden Slickrock on a mountain bike and on a mountain unicycle, and I ride everything. Sure it's hard, but isn't that the point?
> 
> The reality is that very few people on this forum and very few ebikers have the skills and/or desire to ride Slickrock.


mountain unicycle - ok you win the thread! Hey I have fond memories of riding with Kris Holm on the North Shore back in the day - a legend of mtn Unicycle

BTW it was 20 years ago and foggy memory but I did not find slickrock all that hard, on my rigid Klein Atittude back then. Was just a super fun busy trail and I still had some fitness fomr XC racing back then. I know I could not clean it today on my non-e MTB, but my memory can't picture the whole thing any more

at any rate, when it comes to walk mode - I think Rocky Mountain forgot to program it into my bike. Had have to haul it up crazy steep gnarly stuff, and never had help from walk mode yet


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

tahoebeau said:


> So, then what? Is this an ebike or an e-moto?
> 
> View attachment 1237839


its goddam ugly is what it is


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> Just get a moto if a motor is so important.





tahoebeau said:


> fify


Excellent "fify"


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> I'm sure your son is pumped. I had a ktm 150SX for awhile, fun little ripper.


Yup, that's the rig. He can't wait. Probably be riding it in the snow all next week during vacation!


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yes, I've ridden Slickrock on a mountain bike and on a mountain unicycle, neither was motorized, and I ride everything. Sure it's hard, but isn't that the point?
> 
> The reality is that very few people on this forum and very few ebikers have the skills and/or desire to ride Slickrock.
> 
> ...


I don't know what "ebikers" you are talking about. Every single person I know who has decided to drop $$$$ on a quality eMTB is a skilled mountain bike rider.

And no "hard" is not the point. That is the fallacy that almost all ebike deniers have in their heads. Fun is the point. Get it?


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## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

honkinunit said:


> I don't know what "ebikers" you are talking about. Every single person I know who has decided to drop $$$$ on a quality eMTB is a skilled mountain bike rider.
> 
> And no "hard" is not the point. That is the fallacy that almost all ebike deniers have in their heads. Fun is the point. Get it?


yep.

I have never seen a 'newbie' rider on an emtb the trails here yet. I have talked to some ex-pro riders who now sometimes ride eMTB they purchased. I would not call Ryder Hesjedal an unskilled newbie rider, Nurse Ben, lol (former 2 time World Champion mtn biker). It's mainly older experienced guys like me who've been riding 20-35 years on the MTB and have the cash and curiosity to give it a try. No different than someone using a shuttle or lift up the hill - that's the main purpose of the electrics.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

BCsaltchucker said:


> yep.
> 
> I have never seen a 'newbie' rider on an emtb the trails here yet. I have talked to some ex-pro riders who now sometimes ride eMTB they purchased. I would not call Ryder Hesjedal an unskilled newbie rider, Nurse Ben, lol (former 2 time World Champion mtn biker). It's mainly older experienced guys like me who've been riding 20-35 years on the MTB and have the cash and curiosity to give it a try. No different than someone using a shuttle or lift up the hill - that's the main purpose of the electrics.


Wasn't Ryder Hesjedal accused of using electric assist during a road race? Tour of Flanders maybe? No surprise


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

honkinunit said:


> Fun is the point. Get it?


"Fun" is defined by the participant. Some people find the hard to be their flavor of "fun". Get it?


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

life behind bars said:


> "Fun" is defined by the participant. Some people find the hard to be their flavor of "fun". Get it?


I have no problem with people equating "hard" with "fun". I have a problem with people claiming "hard" is the entire point of cycling. That is pure bullshit.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> I have no problem with people equating "hard" with "fun". I have a problem with people claiming "hard" is the entire point of cycling. That is pure bullshit.


100% with ya!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

honkinunit said:


> I have no problem with people equating "hard" with "fun". I have a problem with people claiming "hard" is the entire point of cycling. That is pure bullshit.


That's the problem with absolutes, they're usually absolutely wrong, no matter which side is tossing them out there. Here's one absolute that is true, this thread is an absolute cluster ****. As per usual.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

honkinunit said:


> I have no problem with people equating "hard" with "fun". I have a problem with people claiming "hard" is the entire point of cycling.


I haven't seen anyone do that in this thread.

That Nurse Ben guy was specifically describing Slick Rock as being hard and folks choosing to ride it because they're looking for a challenge. Because some folks have fun challenging themselves on trails that involve difficult climbs.

Your bias is showing. Again.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

og-mtb said:


> I haven't seen anyone do that in this thread.
> 
> That Nurse Ben guy was specifically describing Slick Rock as being hard and folks choosing to ride it because they're looking for a challenge. Because some folks have fun challenging themselves on trails that involve difficult climbs.
> 
> Your bias is showing. Again.


My bias? This is what he said: "Sure it's hard, but isn't that the point?"

The answer is, it may be the point for YOU. It is not the point for EVERYONE.

BTW, as one of the few people on this forum who has actually ridden at least a dozen different MTBs from fully rigid 26x1.9" tired, cantilever braked 80's MTBs to 8" Freeride bikes, several motorcycles, and two different Class 1 ebikes on Slickrock, it is plenty hard on a Class 1 ebike. And tons of fun.


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## og-mtb (Sep 23, 2018)

honkinunit said:


> two different Class 1 ebikes on Slickrock, it is *plenty hard *on a Class 1 ebike.


It may be plenty hard for YOU. It is not plenty hard for EVERYONE.

That's your bias once again...


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## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

langster831 said:


> Wasn't Ryder Hesjedal accused of using electric assist during a road race? Tour of Flanders maybe? No surprise


'accused' by some knownothing innernet trolls. Just because you read it on some forum on the internet doesn't make it true such that it would be 'no surprise' to you. Or are you still keeping a subscription to the National Enquirer these days?


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

tahoebeau said:


> So, then what? Is this an ebike or an e-moto?
> 
> View attachment 1237839


That is a waist of time, braaap!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

tahoebeau said:


> So, then what? Is this an ebike or an e-moto?
> 
> View attachment 1237839


it took me a minute to even find the pedals....

and it looks like one of those small wheeled mini dirt motorcycles my cousins used to use in the 70's to tear up the woods at my uncles farm...

that is honestly what I thought it was at first glance

if that is where e bikes are going, I can definitely see why uninformed "trail police" might mistake them for a motor cycle and react accordingly

and it goes 50mph...<- motor bike


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

NEPMTBA said:


> That is a waist of time, braaap!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


What is a "waist of time"?

Is that a hula hoop clock?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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