# S&TF - Sold on Alfine!



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

All of you guys should get one of these hubs and give it a try. They have some serious potential!

https://pvdwiki.com/index.php?title=Alfine_8spd_internal_hub


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)




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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

The Alfine wholesales for about $175.


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

Yeah I want one too. Just need to drop by the LBS who said he'd hook me up with a wheelset. Says there is few months wait up here for the Alfine. Luckily, snow and winter have arrived.
 

Drew


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

Yeah, I've been looking at the Alfine. I'm a big fan of internal gearing for much of the riding I do but it's hard to pony up the cost for a collection of bikes that all run Rohloffs. I haven't ridden an Alfine yet, but reviews have been largely positive and I've been thinking about building a commuter around one. I'm sitting on the tubing and pondering which drop-outs to order as I write this. 

What application are you using the hub in?


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

I don't know about PVD, but I'm putting one in a el mariachi frame I picked up on ebay. It will work perfectly with the eccentric BB

Drew


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm curious as to how they hold up in winter


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I'm going to test this thing out on honest MTB and ROAD conditions. Mud, rain, abuse, miles. We will see. Initial impressions are good, but time will tell if it's the $hit or not.


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

Keep us posted on your experiences.


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## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

> posted at: http://pvdwiki.com/index.php?title=Alfine_8spd_internal_hub
> 
> The bad
> 
> ...


The Nexus-8 twist shifter works with it, you can shift as many gears as you want. But the quality is crap, I've broken them just by normal use (internal plastic parts). I've adapted an old 8-speed Sram esp-9 shifter, and it's working fine - the Alfine pulls a lot more cable per gear than the esp, but with the old grip-shifter you can simply shim up the diameter of the reel - I just trimmed the end stops, and wrapped the cable around the reel 4 times before exiting the shifter, and that has worked pretty well. I also wedged the spring so it would not over-shift the cable (a dérailleur thing).

Trigger shifter - I like my brake levers angle down ~40deg, and the triggers end up in an unnatural position.

Its not well sealed (but better than the previous versions), it gets rough after a bit of exposure. Have not broken mine yet, but it's still young.


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## JOURNEYC6 (Jun 7, 2008)

why the big $$$ difference bewten Alfine and Rohloffs??????


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## LIFECYCLE (Mar 8, 2006)

Very clever modifications Itsdoable.


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

I've been riding alfine for about 8/9 months in pretty horrible wet conditions, very gritty soil round here with trails that don't drain. I've had it apart twice to clean and re-lube which involves removing the disc then disc side cone and using a specific spanner on the drive side to undo the whole internals as one piece, then dunk it in shimanos fluid in their tank let it soak for a bit then drain and refit. After that it works fine but once you get something in there the shifts where you are releasing cable and the hub is pulling (the down shift if i remember right) stops working and you have to clean it out. Only takes about 15 mins to strip so isn't too bad, I'm still on my first cable which is suprising but once that goes i'll replace it with a gore ride-on and that should last even longer

We've fitted quite a few through the shop and i've had mine a fair while so if anyone has any questions feel free to ask

matt


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

good to hear. I noticed that the stock cable housing was totally dry out of the box. I lubed the cable with Shimano Special Grease for SP41. That should help from the get go. I also used a sealed end with a grommet at the hub end. I do this on all my cable runs. Makes a huge difference in the life of the housing.









Shimano SIS SP41 Grease, 50g, Y04180000









Shimano 4mm sealed end caps, Y6AM98080

What are the specific special tools that you need for the service? They list several on the tech page, but I'd like to know which I 'need' to get.

https://techdocs.shimano.com/media/...SG/EV-SG-S501-2788A_v1_m56577569830646705.pdf


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

As we are a shop we have ordered all of the tools, but so far i've only used tl-af10, the really big stupid looking spanner, on the drive side of the hub between the flange and the cassette joint there is a plastic cover, i'f you slide this off underneath are some crappy plastic splines, the spanner fits this, it's a left hand thread and unscrews the whole internals. The other tools are for replacing bearings and things, i've not looked into it yet cos i haven't needed to do it

matt


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

JOURNEYC6 said:


> why the big $$$ difference bewten Alfine and Rohloffs??????


The Rohloff has almost twice as many ratios. It is basically two gear sets inside a single hub shell. It is also much stronger than the Alfine.

The Rohloff is rated OK of off road use. The Alfine is not.


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## Xave (Oct 7, 2004)

Here's mine I've only used it once and don't intend to clean the bike until the spring.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

shiggy said:


> The Rohloff is rated OK of off road use. The Alfine is not.


You have first hand experience?


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

shiggy said:


> The Rohloff has almost twice as many ratios. It is basically two gear sets inside a single hub shell. It is also much stronger than the Alfine.
> 
> The Rohloff is rated OK of off road use. The Alfine is not.


That's textbook knowledge unless you have first hand experience? The Alfine is certified for XC usage and that's what most people have been doing with it, although I have seen it used on a DH bike with no problems&#8230;yet.

I've had mine on a Giant Trance for about 3 months with a coating of mud every ride and it's still working as smoothly as the day I got it.:thumbsup:


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

EGF168 said:


> That's textbook knowledge unless you have first hand experience? The Alfine is certified for XC usage and that's what most people have been doing with it, although I have seen it used on a DH bike with no problems&#8230;yet.
> 
> I've had mine on a Giant Trance for about 3 months with a coating of mud every ride and it's still working as smoothly as the day I got it.:thumbsup:


The question was why the price difference. While the Alfine is being used off road by some, Shimano did not design it for off road use and, as far as I can find, does not encourage it for off road use.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

shiggy said:


> Shimano did not design it for off road use and, as far as I can find, does not encourage it for off road use.


That's correct but Shimano later decided to perform further testing on the Alfine, found it to be up to the job and have given it the green light for XC usage.:thumbsup:


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

shiggy said:


> ...While the Alfine is being used off road by some, Shimano did not design it for off road use and, as far as I can find, does not encourage it for off road use.


I remember the first mtn bikes, good thing you weren't there to kill the buzz:


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

shiggy said:


> While the Alfine is being used off road by some, Shimano did not design it for off road use and, as far as I can find, does not encourage it for off road use.


OMFG!!!!

Some of the people here are actually trying new things. New combinations on how to make our love better.

I'm on my own now. The student has become the master. But I've worked with some serious muthafukas. Chris Chance, Mark Salvasberg, Ron Andrews, Terry Scarborogh and so many others that have nothing to do with bikes, motos or cars. I've been lucky enough to know a great many others in the field...Sandy Kosman, Mike Augsberger, Mark Norstad, The Merlin Crew, FC crew, Indy Crew, the Seven Crew, NOBODY I RESPECT HAS EVER WAITED FOR SOMEBODY ELSE TO DECIDE WHAT WHAT WAS RIGHT OR WRONG TO DO OR APPLY.

I remember when we had a copy of fthe Flanders catalog on the production shop desk at Fat City. This was because we still were sourcing motorcycle parts for mountain bikes. It doesn't stop. We keep trying. Anything. Everything. Whatever works.

Whatever works.


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## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

As Shiggy said, the Rohloff was _rated_ for off-road use from day one, the Alfine was not, but has been OK'ed for "light XC use", whatever that means. And only in the UK as far as I know. It's just a small part of the price difference.

Rohloff is made in Germany. Rohloff is a seal oil-bath, the Shimano is a grease hub. The Rohloff has roller & ball bearings on every gear. Rohloff has an equivalent-to-dérailleur gear range. The Rohloff is probably more robust, and works better (IMHO).

My first Rohloff was in 2000. It's still running fine, I've only replaced chains regularly, and the cog once. And oil changes. It's still dependable today.

Back then I was also playing with other geared hubs off-road. The Nexus 7-speed lasted 3 months before breaking the half shaft. The SRAM Dual-drive 3-speed broke an axle. One Nexus 8s red-band is still working (but rather gritty/rough) and the other broke. My Alfine is good, but it's young. I just started using an iMotion-9 off road, the thing weighs significantly more than the Rohloff, so I'm hoping they put that extra steel to some good use!

Mountain biking started by taking road and city bikes off-road and finding out what worked. Things aren't that different today.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

itsdoable said:


> As Shiggy said, the Rohloff was _rated_ for off-road use from day one, the Alfine was not, but has been OK'ed for "light XC use", whatever that means. And only in the UK as far as I know. It's just a small part of the price difference.
> 
> Rohloff is made in Germany. Rohloff is a seal oil-bath, the Shimano is a grease hub. The Rohloff has roller & ball bearings on every gear. Rohloff has an equivalent-to-dérailleur gear range. The Rohloff is probably more robust, and works better (IMHO).
> 
> ...


Thank you for understanding my replies. Please note that I never said not to use the Alfine on a MTB.

It should also be pointed out that the internals of the Nexus Red-Band and the Alfine are the same.


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## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

shiggy said:


> . ...It should also be pointed out that the internals of the Nexus Red-Band and the Alfine are the same.


Thats true with the current red-bands, but the ones I broke did not have the roller clutch. My alfine has a 500 part number, currently its at 501 or 502, with some "improvements"


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

pvd said:


> OMFG!!!!...rantrantrant....Whatever works.


That's right beyatch. Sit the f back on your Barcalounger and do whatever the corporation tells you.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

itsdoable said:


> As Shiggy said, the Rohloff was _rated_ for off-road use from day one, the Alfine was not, but has been OK'ed for "light XC use", whatever that means. And only in the UK as far as I know. It's just a small part of the price difference.


It should be pointed out that Shimano's UK distributor and a second bike maker in the UK are currently putting the Alfine on bikes specifically designed for winter/mud usage. That would be the Charge Duster and Genesis IO ID&#8230;
 
I can see why the Rohloff would be more expensive but this is just too far, both the Charge Duster and Genesis IO ID I previously mentioned come with some good kit and yet they're both pretty much the same price as one Rohloff Speedhub and I might add that they're very nicely riding bikes too with decent frames. As far as I'm concerned the Alfine is better than the Rohloff so long as it survives the winter here&#8230;


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

We supply both the rohloff and alfine and are a genesis dealer, so stock the io id. We view the alfine and rohloff as two very different beasts, the alfine is cheaper, virtually the same weight, has less gears that are spaced further apart with irregular spaces between, isn't as well sealed, relies on spring tension for the upshift and is indexed at the hub, doesn't shift quite as well underload and requires more serviceing as it is cup and cone and not as well sealed, the shifter is also pretty nasty. The rohloff shifts better is a better weight considering the gear range, has a full gear range with even spaces between, doesn't rely on spring tension for either shift, the cables last longer and you can make as many shifts in one go, they only require an oil change once a year and run on cartridge bearings, but it is more expensive. 

So it really depends what you want it for, if you want a hub just for winter use on your hack bike, get an alfine, if you want a hub to use all year round for the next 5/10/15 years, get a rohloff


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## Rody (Sep 10, 2005)

Current score here...2 Alfines on commuter bikes for with no worries, 1 Alfine on a MTB that broke within 3 months (200+ rider)

Overall, like the design and the price for year round road/light trail use, sticking with Rohloff for true off road applications.

cheers,

rody


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I have no idea if the Alfine is going to work and I am not defending it for offroad use yet, but I am giving it an honest test.

1. With regard to the German hub. I think it's nice, but I also think that it's quite expensive. I'd pay that much for a reduction system in the chassis, but not at the hub.

2. The German shifters and cable systems are known to be problematic and require frequent servicing. It feels pretty lame when it's been too long between servicing.

3. Drivetraing gearing should never be equally spaced:

Below is a comparison of these reductions to other common reductions used in cassette design. The Alfine gears were multiplied by a factor of 21 to get them to start at an equivilant of 11. I also include a 6 spd cassette that I built where I learned that spacing on cassette gears should not be even. This is because fine adjustment is needed in higher gears and gross adjustment is used in lower gears.

==Alfine Gear Reduction==
:Gear Ratio Total Difference 3.07 
:Gear Ratio 1 0.527 
:Gear Ratio 2 0.644 
:Gear Ratio 3 0.748 
:Gear Ratio 4 0.851 
:Gear Ratio 5 1.0 
:Gear Ratio 6 1.223 
:Gear Ratio 7 1.419 
:Gear Ratio 8 1.615


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

shiggy said:


> It should also be pointed out that the internals of the Nexus Red-Band and the Alfine are the same.


not true, only the latest Nexus, 8R35 has the same guts, came out last year. The older 8R30, 8R25, 8R20 are not the same as the Alfine.


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## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

pvd said:


> 2. The German shifters and cable systems are known to be problematic and require frequent servicing. It feels pretty lame when it's been too long between servicing.


That's news to me. They are definitely more of a pain to set up.



pvd said:


> 3. Drivetrain gearing should never be equally spaced:


By "equally spaced", Rohloff means 12.5% increase from the previous gear, which is only equally spaced in the logarithmic world. Running though the gears the Rohloff feels right, the Alfine has some odd steps that feel too small or too large. But I usually ride a SS or fixie, so it really does not bother me.

The more people testing the Alfine off-road, the better. It shifts well, and is really quite cheap. If you don't mind the smaller range, it certainly makes better sense than the Rohloff (unless you want a _real_ granny gear, and ride in below freezing conditions)


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

itsdoable said:


> ...and ride in below freezing conditions)


As a former Massachusettes boy transpanted to NorCal, I pray to never ride a bicycle ever again in temps below freezing. That's when the snowboard comes out and I go to Tahoe!


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

18bikes said:


> We supply both the rohloff and alfine and are a genesis dealer, so stock the io id. We view the alfine and rohloff as two very different beasts, the alfine is cheaper, virtually the same weight, has less gears that are spaced further apart with irregular spaces between, isn't as well sealed, relies on spring tension for the upshift and is indexed at the hub, doesn't shift quite as well underload and requires more serviceing as it is cup and cone and not as well sealed, the shifter is also pretty nasty. The rohloff shifts better is a better weight considering the gear range, has a full gear range with even spaces between, doesn't rely on spring tension for either shift, the cables last longer and you can make as many shifts in one go, they only require an oil change once a year and run on cartridge bearings, but it is more expensive.
> 
> So it really depends what you want it for, if you want a hub just for winter use on your hack bike, get an alfine, if you want a hub to use all year round for the next 5/10/15 years, get a rohloff


The Alfine is a lot smoother, has a major amount less drag and the weight difference compared to the Rohloff is disproportionate but very noticeable when riding so it's a 2 way street. Saying the shifter is pretty nasty is your personal opinion, I hate grip shifters and would never use them. Once I oiled the cables the shifter on the Alfine turned out to be very nice, it looks a lot better in black BTW and you can shift as many gears as you like with the Alfine if you use a Nexus grip shifters.


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

Very nice graph, PVD.

Good to see the comparison with other cassettes.

Drew


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

So it looks like there might be two or three people on this thread that actually have experience with both Rohloffs and alfines?

I will include myself in this small group. Really, its amazing that this much discussion can ensue when much of the observations are gleaned from apocryphal info off the internet.

The alfine is a fine hub. I am sure it would work well for off-roading as has been proven by some already. It is just different. No, it is not a Rohloff actually, not even close but then again if you would like to experiment with internal gears it is a heck of a lot cheaper and a better value for the money.

Some things that for instance that EGF168 mentioned are just not accurate. Alfines are smoother out of the box. They are not smoother than a well broken in Rohloff. Alfines do not have less drag. Once again, the break in period for Rohloffs is incredibly long. I think this is the one thing that Rohloff could do to make the consumer feel better about them. That is they should pre-break in the hub so that people will not get discouraged in the first 500miles and give up on it. Then again it may just be an American instant gratification thing.

Setting up the shifter, No biggie after you have done it a few times. Sealed casing the whole way and basically you never have to deal with it. There are a lot of hurdles with pulling 2.5 inches of cable and the grip shift is the simplest solution. Surely, eventually they will come up with a thumb type shifter but a little time with the current shifter and you don't even think about it anymore.

PVD, I wonder about you sometimes.....You are certainly smarter than you let on...the equal spacing good or bad in your opinion, works extremely well on a MTB. Maybe you should ride and service a Rohloff before reporting things like:

"2. The German shifters and cable systems are known to be problematic and require frequent servicing. It feels pretty lame when it's been too long between servicing.

3. Drivetraing gearing should never be equally spaced:"

I say give the Alfine a go and tell us how it works. Personally, I will keep using alfines for the commuting crowd and I will keep my now well broken in Rohloff for MTB, thank you very much.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles.
http://www.bohemianbicycles.com


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

dbohemian said:


> Some things that for instance that EGF168 mentioned are just not accurate. Alfines are smoother out of the box. They are not smoother than a well broken in Rohloff. Alfines do not have less drag. Once again, the break in period for Rohloffs is incredibly long. I think this is the one thing that Rohloff could do to make the consumer feel better about them. That is they should pre-break in the hub so that people will not get discouraged in the first 500miles and give up on it. Then again it may just be an American instant gratification thing.


That's interesting, you think when I chose to experiment with a cheaper and possibly crappier option I didn't go out and try every Rohloff I could to make sure it wasn't worth the money? If you've ridden any well broken in Rohloff like some of the ones I have you know very well that the vibration goes away on most of the gears but never all of them which is why I say the Alfine is smoother as it is perfectly smooth in every gear. I can assure you the drag was there on every well broken in Rohloff I tried, it's not that big but it's noticeable, the ones that weren't broken in felt like having a brake on&#8230;


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

itsdoable said:


> the Rohloff feels right, the Alfine has some odd steps that feel too small or too large


That's exactly what i meant.

In my opinion both hubs have their pro's and con's, i ride an alfine, but would love to have a rohloff (and I have ridden both) I don't particularly like grip shift either, but I think the pre's of the rohloff are worth it.

I have the alfine shifter in black and it does look a lot better, but you can only shift one gear at a time in each direction, and when your used to standard shifters where you can shift several at a time this takes some getting used to.

Like i said before, budget and use will dictate which hub you choose but they are both good for different things, the rohloff is certainly better made and last i spoke to them they hadn't had a catostrophic failure of one yet (to give you an idea the in 2002 rohloff thought they had sold 20,000 speedhubs)

matt


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## Monkeybike (Feb 25, 2008)

The alfine is a good strong hub, and it will shift always, shifting upwards is instantaneous, going downward it take like 1/3 of a second, but it will always shift, even under heavy grinding action, the harder you pedal, the faster it will shift (at least upwards)

I have been running an alfine hub on a dh bike since early this year (jan/feb), and it has been fine. the trigger shifter works spotlessly and it can be easily modifiable to take a second shifter for your left thumb to do the down shifting (Honda style).

The hub has held perfectly on very muddy condition, water and even snow as well as on dry dusty trails. it feels strong, and has shown no sign of weakening on jump and drops.

I assume as long as the shell and axle of the hub are ok, the hub will be fine. I do go on some long freeriding expeditions now and then, but I am sure the hub internal will suffer more on an xc bike (more grinding action)



















another side effect of having the alfine, is that the bike is quiet.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

EGF168 said:


> That's interesting, you think when I chose to experiment with a cheaper and possibly crappier option I didn't go out and try every Rohloff I could to make sure it wasn't worth the money? If you've ridden any well broken in Rohloff like some of the ones I have you know very well that the vibration goes away on most of the gears but never all of them which is why I say the Alfine is smoother as it is perfectly smooth in every gear. I can assure you the drag was there on every well broken in Rohloff I tried, it's not that big but it's noticeable, the ones that weren't broken in felt like having a brake on&#8230;


I agree with you that a slight whirring noise never goes away in 3 gears on the Rohloff. These are the gears that are engaging all three planetary gear sets at the same time. Since the Alfine does not have a third planetary set it does not have this issue. Here is how I see it. Nobody really knows, including myself whether this whirring noise is actually translating into a reduced wattage output beyond what Rohloff already states in their technical manuals. My guess is that any "drag" somebody feels in a well broken in Rohloff is actually just them hearing that whirring noise and assuming anything that whirres must be holding them back. Psychological in my eyes.

The only way for people to really test this is to use an Ibike or some such similar power meter and on the identical bicycle run a broken in Rohloff and a broken in Alfine and report the difference (if any) in time vs. output. Hard to do I know.

As I said in my previous post, I think the alfine is great, It will surely stand up to most off road endevours, it is significantly less expensive and probably a better value. If we remove the money component and just base them on the merits of each design, the Rohloff is a superior piece of equipment IMHO.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles
http://www.bohemianbicycles

P.S. Auto transmissions in a daily driver are almost perfectly quiet but in a race car they often use a straight cut gear box which makes a hell of a whine. (just like a Rohloff) Here is a pretty neat video BTW. of a BMW race car






Straight cut gears are efficient at transmitting power. They make noise. I don't think BMW or any of the other companies would be using them if they were less efficient than quieter gear sets.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

dbohemian said:


> I agree with you that a slight whirring noise never goes away in 3 gears on the Rohloff. These are the gears that are engaging all three planetary gear sets at the same time. Since the Alfine does not have a third planetary set it does not have this issue. Here is how I see it. Nobody really knows, including myself whether this whirring noise is actually translating into a reduced wattage output beyond what Rohloff already states in their technical manuals. My guess is that any "drag" somebody feels in a well broken in Rohloff is actually just them hearing that whirring noise and assuming anything that whirres must be holding them back. Psychological in my eyes.


You can think what you want to but I can assure you that every one of the Rohloffs I've tried have dragged more than the 2 Alfine's I've tried, they even drag more than the Alfine's when not pedalling. 2 more things that I really don't like about the Rohloff are that it needs 2 cables and special disc rotors. When Shimano comes out with a decent off-road hub I'll put an order in straight away but I'd never buy the current Rohloff and I don't see them making enough improvements in the future for me to want one.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

EGF168 said:


> You can think what you want to but I can assure you that every one of the Rohloffs I've tried have dragged more than the 2 Alfine's I've tried, they even drag more than the Alfine's when not pedalling. 2 more things that I really don't like about the Rohloff are that it needs 2 cables and special disc rotors. When Shimano comes out with a decent off-road hub I'll put an order in straight away but I'd never buy the current Rohloff and I don't see them making enough improvements in the future for me to want one.


Who really cares about two cables? Every other derailleur bike in the world has two cables, one for the front mech and the rear.

About a special brake disk? They wear out infrequently and they are in plentiful supply.

I can assure you that each one of the two Rohloffs I own plus an Alfine bike do not drag anymore or less than one another when broken in.

Seems like you are just trying to make an excuses not to own a Rohloff. Really, I don't care if you do. I have said the Alfine is a fine unit. No need to talk down about the Rohloff. They are different. I think the Rohloff is the superior unit. You obviously do not .

You say tomato, I say tomato.

David Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles
http://www.bohemianbicycles.com


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

dbohemian said:


> Who really cares about two cables? Every other derailleur bike in the world has two cables, one for the front mech and the rear.
> 
> About a special brake disk? They wear out infrequently and they are in plentiful supply.


You rarely get the optimum performance from a brake when it's with a rotor it was not designed to work with and I frequently moan about cables on here, I do take it seriously when a bike has bad cable routing or has extra cables that it doesn't need for suspension etc, that's why I really don't like it when I see the Rohloff has 2 cables, when choosing the Alfine the single cable was a big plus point, and the same goes for not having to pay for a new rotor that may or may not work well with my brakes...


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

Why all the emotion? Anyone here on the Shimano/Rohloff payroll? 

One "neat" thing about the unique Rohloff brake rotor...

It uses the same BCD pattern as the small ring on a triple setup. I've plans to make use of this handy little "feature" in a future build that will use the Rohloff as a transmission, but not a hub. ...In the same vein as a G-boxx. It's also a way to get around the input gear ratio limitations if you're in need of a lower granny. You can simply underdrive the output side.

For various reasons, the Rohloff's not for everyone. ...neither, then, is the Alfine. Ride what you like to ride. Most of all, enjoy said ride on merits that go far beyond the transmission you've chosen.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

EGF168 said:


> You rarely get the optimum performance from a brake when it's with a rotor it was not designed to work with and I frequently moan about cables on here, I do take it seriously when a bike has bad cable routing or has extra cables that it doesn't need for suspension etc, that's why I really don't like it when I see the Rohloff has 2 cables, when choosing the Alfine the single cable was a big plus point, and the same goes for not having to pay for a new rotor that may or may not work well with my brakes...


O.K. But doesn't the alfine also use a proprietary disk? I mean, If I want to run a caliper other than shimano then I am in the same boat.

Since I am a custom framebuilder I can make a very clean cable arrangement. Most people don't even know the cables are there.

I have put all sorts of brakes on a rohloffs with no issue. Avid, Hope, Magura, just to name a few.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles
http://www.bohemianbicycles.com


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

The Alfine needs a Center Lock disc but Formula and DT Swiss do adaptors, the problem is that with the Rohloff you can't get certain rotors to fit like Hayes. You can have as few issues as you want but a short trip to the brake forum will tell you that one mans perfect brake is another's brake from hell. A huge company like Specialized can slip up with bad cable routing but I'd expect more attention to detail from a custom builder like you.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

swift said:


> Why all the emotion? Anyone here on the Shimano/Rohloff payroll?


No, I hate their newer brakes and hubs but their gearing is IMO the best.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I updated a bunch of info on my wiki and reproduced that graph to better show comparisons.

https://pvdwiki.com/index.php?title=Alfine_8spd_internal_hub

Interestingly, the smoothest shift range for XTR is 44/32/24 on 11/32 (XTR4) followed by 44/32/24 on 12/34 (XTR6) & 44/32/24 on 11/34 (XTR5). I guess that means a 24 should be used over a 22 whenever possible.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

swift said:


> Why all the emotion? Anyone here on the Shimano/Rohloff payroll?


I am, they pay me $200K per year to post on this forum, plus all the free Shimano stuff I want. Since they don't monitor things, I'm starting to sell this stuff on ebay. I trying to drive up sales...how's it working


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

How is the engagement of the Alfine? Compared to CK, Hadley, I9's?


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

jncarpenter said:


> How is the engagement of the Alfine? Compared to CK, Hadley, I9's?


That's another thing I've just remembered, engagement on the Rohloff is very slow whereas on the Alfine is not going to be as fast as CK and rest of them but it's pretty good, it also has no noise seeing as it's got a roller clutch instead of free hub and has a reassuringly solid engagement. :thumbsup:


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

EGF168 said:


> That's another thing I've just remembered, engagement on the Rohloff is very slow whereas on the Alfine is not going to be as fast as CK and rest of them but it's pretty good, it also has no noise seeing as it's got a roller clutch instead of free hub and has a reassuringly solid engagement. :thumbsup:


As somebody said before I don't want to make this personal, I don't work for Rohloff or Shimano. I just think Rohloffs are a great product and when somebody makes mis-statements IMHO I want to correct them.

If by engagement we are talking about how far the hub rotates before the freewheel mechanism engages? The pawls on the hub are spaced just about 6 degees apart. I figure it out and this means that the maximum distance a crank arm can travel between the farthest separations of a pall is 9.15mm. That seems normal to me. Most of the time that would be less when you engage, Does one feel a cm of crank movement? Seems like every other hub I have ridden.

Your observations are so far removed from what I have experienced having built 25+ Rohloff bicycles and personally riding one of three Rohloff since they came out. I am really dumbfounded. I wish you could ride my MTB hardtail I have here cause I just don't see what you are saying.

Once again, I get the feeling that instead of just saying that the Rohloff and Alfine are different but work great depending on riding styles, budgets and application you are just trying to nitpick the Rohloff.

engagement speed. Now you are really getting anal....

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles
http://www.bohemianbicycles.com


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

They've always felt very slow to me but it depends on the gearing ratio your using and what gear your in to tell what engagement points you get at the crank end of things which is what matters on the Rohloff unlike standard hubs. I think you'll find a lot of people care about engagement speed so you'll end up calling quite a few people "anal"


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Quick engagement on a freehub is definately very important with regard to performance. I haven't compared the two.

I love the silent clutch on the Alfine. It's cool.


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## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

One of the characteristics of IGH is the slow engagement - depending on the # of gears, the drive must go through up to 4 clutches. If each one has a max of 6deg to engage, then at some point you may have up to 36deg before engagement, and this was present on some early Nexus'.

Shimano's roller clutch mod introduced with the Alfine was trying to address this issue (and noise), which worked very well. Only the pertinent clutch(s) use the rollers. The major disadvantage of roller clutches is their tendency to fail (explode) under load - or they had to be made very heavy. Since the Alfine was a "city bike" component, the roller made sense. But it also made it much more mtb-able.

Rohloff (which is over 10 years old) addressed this with a ratchet system similar to the DT-Hugi Star ratchet and the Chris King ring-drive (using something in between) for the important clutches to reduce engagement play. It work pretty well (it was considered pretty good 10 year ago for an IGH), and is not bad today, _but_ certain gears are exceptionally poor, particularly the ones that use all the clutches (5th I think), and they have more clutches than the Alfine (because they have more gears). Most gears however are pretty good.

As for "solid" engagement, that depends on your definition. The Rohloff is a _hard_ engagement, as in when the ratchets all bottom out, it's solidly engaged. The Alfine is a _soft_ engagement, which is characteristic of roller clutches, in that there is a quick but perceptible ramp up to lock-up. I don't think one is better than the other, both feel good when riding. Your preferences may differ.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

That was a really informative post. Thankyou.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

That's essentially what I was wondering. Thanks.


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

itsdoable said:


> there is a quick but perceptible ramp up to lock-up


Would that feel as though your in the lowest gear for half a second before it properly engages on the gear you were previously riding in? :skep:


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## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

EGF168 said:


> Would that feel as though your in the lowest gear for half a second before it properly engages on the gear you were previously riding in? :skep:


No, that was prevalent on most IGHs. When you are in a gear where the hub makes a clicky noise, that is the higher gear ratchet over-running the lower gear - this is where the alfine uses the roller clutch, so you don't get the clicky. Because the clutches engage at different times, usually low gear clutch engages before the selected gear - and you get a momentary low gear before the selected gear over runs it.

The Alfine minimizes this by using a roller clutch that engages quickly. The Rohloff also minimised this by retracting the lower gear clutches when not needed (which is what I'm assuming causes the slightly stiffer up-shift feel, since retracting clutches is what usually make the shifter pause).

In both cases, you usually don't notice it when you start to pedal from a standstill, or a static coast. However, if you back pedal, then this tends to occur more (which plays havoc with ratcheting your pedal in certain gears!). In some gears, it's really challenging to track stand.


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## peanutbutter (Feb 18, 2005)

during the short time i got to test ride a bike i built for a friend with the alfine, the hub worked very well. i did find that in the higher gears there was a perceivable lag in engagement, but in that short time, it had the ramp up effect mentioned above, where the lower gear engaged first and was then followed by the higher gear. while this sounds like a negative, i found it was great! if for instance you start pedaling in a slightly too high gear, the hub eases you into it by getting the bike up to speed in a lower gear for a very short time, them automatically "upshifting" or engaging the higher gear. 
in short, when the gear is a bit too high, it eases you into it, if the gear is to low when beginning to pedal, you dont notice it, pretty sweet!


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## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

itsdoable said:


> No, that was prevalent on most IGHs. When you are in a gear where the hub makes a clicky noise, that is the higher gear ratchet over-running the lower gear - this is where the alfine uses the roller clutch, so you don't get the clicky. Because the clutches engage at different times, usually low gear clutch engages before the selected gear - and you get a momentary low gear before the selected gear over runs it.
> 
> The Alfine minimizes this by using a roller clutch that engages quickly. The Rohloff also minimised this by retracting the lower gear clutches when not needed (which is what I'm assuming causes the slightly stiffer up-shift feel, since retracting clutches is what usually make the shifter pause).
> 
> In both cases, you usually don't notice it when you start to pedal from a standstill, or a static coast. However, if you back pedal, then this tends to occur more (which plays havoc with ratcheting your pedal in certain gears!). In some gears, it's really challenging to track stand.


So you said no but then went on to describe in detail exactly what I was talking about. On the Alfine if you pedal backwards or it just happens on its own when your not pedalling, when you start pedalling again it does what you described with a ramp up feeling like your in the lowest gear before fully engaging in the gear you were previously riding in before you stopped pedalling. Very useful IMO, it makes the bike leap forward and gives you time to change gear if your in the wrong one and eases you into the higher gear which I really like. :thumbsup:


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

Great thread, probably the most informative on the Rohloff vs the Alfine on MTBR.

One comment/question for those who have ridden both:

I quickly decided Rohloff was not for me after a few rides (bought used and broken in). The things I really disliked were: getting locked out of shifts under load, and absolutely the noticeable drag (not gear whirring messing with my head), which I _felt_ was worse as load increased.

How does the Alfine compare to the Rohloff under those conditions?

I may just need to get one for the commuter and experiment, but wanted to get some feedback on these issues.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

Enel said:


> I quickly decided Rohloff was not for me after a few rides (bought used and broken in). The things I really disliked were: getting locked out of shifts under load, and absolutely the noticeable drag (not gear whirring messing with my head), which I _felt_ was worse as load increased.
> 
> How does the Alfine compare to the Rohloff under those conditions?
> 
> I may just need to get one for the commuter and experiment, but wanted to get some feedback on these issues.


I wish I could answer your last question, that is I have not ridden the Alfine in extreme conditions, just that I have built some commuter bikes with them. I have only ridden the Rohloff in extreme conditions.

Just to clarify. The Rohloff only locks out on the 7-8 shift. No other gears are affected by the lock out under power. If it was, something was wrong. Technically, as the load increases, efficiency in the hub goes up. Was it an FS design or hard-tail you were riding?

To be honest, I don't get a lot of opportunities to ride other bikes (other than my own) A couple of weeks ago I rode a Gary Fischer FS with SRAM trigger shifter and drivetrain. The bike was nice. All I could keep thinking though is I wanted my Rohloff back instead of the horrendously awful shifting that was on that thing.

I would just get an Alfine, they are inexpensive. You can test it and if is not for you I would think someone would love to get it.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

dbohemian said:


> I wish I could answer your last question, that is I have not ridden the Alfine in extreme conditions, just that I have built some commuter bikes with them. I have only ridden the Rohloff in extreme conditions.


I really enjoyed my Rohloff on the commute, just on the trail in steep stuff that I noticed it.



dbohemian said:


> Just to clarify. The Rohloff only locks out on the 7-8 shift. No other gears are affected by the lock out under power. If it was, something was wrong. Technically, as the load increases, efficiency in the hub goes up. Was it an FS design or hard-tail you were riding?


Interesting. I was riding a hardtail, and for all shifts under power, it required a very short time with low load on the pedals (similar to a front derailleur, but much, much faster). I could not turn the gripshift to get it to click all the way until I backed off just a smidge. Once it clicked it, it was good to go. If I was dying on a climb and in need of another gear, that momentary pause was enough to stall me and make me walk.

Perhaps it was not set up right.


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## AL29er (Jan 14, 2004)

Enel said:


> Interesting. I was riding a hardtail, and for all shifts under power, it required a very short time with low load on the pedals (similar to a front derailleur, but much, much faster). I could not turn the gripshift to get it to click all the way until I backed off just a smidge. Once it clicked it, it was good to go. If I was dying on a climb and in need of another gear, that momentary pause was enough to stall me and make me walk.
> 
> Perhaps it was not set up right.


Ditto. I demo'd one around for a few minutes at the trailhead once. I was bothered that I had to stop pedaling to shift. It would be really annoying going up a hill as you would lose all momentum while dumping to an easier gear. It really turned me off the notion of trying one out.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

I would like to clarify. 

Indeed the Rohloff does require one to re-learn a shifting technique to work best with a gear hub. 

I think everyone knows about the 7-8 shifting issue? That is where it goes momentarily into 14th gear until load is removed. That is a design feature to save the hub from overload. 

Other than that there are other issues. First is the hub will shift under load in any of the other gears. If under extreme load you need a lot of force on the shifter to force the shift. Not everyone is used to how hard you may have to turn the shifter itself. If you turn it hard enough it will shift under any condition and it is not bad for the unit. For those used to popping a shift with Shimano systems it can be disconcerting.

Another thing you get used to is how fast the hub can shift. It is much faster than a deraillieur. So, you get use to shifting at the top of a pedal stroke. Each time, lets say your right foot goes over the top you just pop a couple of shifts while your pedaling torque is low. Easy.

Add in that you can shift whenever you are not pedalling and you can be in the near perfect gear for a hill while you are going down a hill or if you have to do a switchback, just come into it in a high gear, shift 6-7 gears in one move and be ready to accelerate out of it.

This takes time to get used too. No one learned to shift a derailleur bike overnight and it takes a while before these eccentricities become second nature on the Rohloff. 

It is not for everyone, that is for sure but a parking lot ride or even a one hour ride is not enough to really make a judgement call on the Rohloff. I make a deal with everyone I sell. If you ride it for lets say a month and you really hate it still, I will take it back and put the money towards any other kit-parts you may want. So far, nobody has taken me up on my offer.

All the best,

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

dbohemian said:


> If under extreme load you need a lot of force on the shifter to force the shift. Not everyone is used to how hard you may have to turn the shifter itself. If you turn it hard enough it will shift under any condition and it is not bad for the unit. For those used to popping a shift with Shimano systems it can be disconcerting.


Aha, that is exactly what I was feeling. I guess I just needed to slam it into gear harder.


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## batorok (May 7, 2007)

Rody said:


> Current score here...2 Alfines on commuter bikes for with no worries, 1 Alfine on a MTB that broke within 3 months (200+ rider)
> 
> Overall, like the design and the price for year round road/light trail use, sticking with Rohloff for true off road applications.
> 
> ...


Can you please tell me more about the broken Alfine? What broke? And how? 
thanks


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