# Cheap Mitering set up



## adarn (Aug 11, 2009)

Hey, searched for this but couldn't find anything, sorry if its a repeat.

Anyway, I was checking out some stuff on harbor freight, these in particular:
Tubing Notcher & Pipe Notcher
7 Piece Bi-metal Hole Saw Set

I'm not all that knowledgeable on this kind of stuff, but it looks to me like you could get a pretty solid mitering set up for relatively cheap.

Those hole saws would work right?

and I could just use a drill press, to do all my mitering?

Does anyone use this/looked into it?

Thanks, 
Adam


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

If you're going to use a joint jigger you'll need a much nicer one with a better tube clamp. You'll also need a drill press with a slow spindle speed. I have a cheap drill press with a min. speed of 500 or something way too fast for most things.

-Joel


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## Cracked Headtube (Apr 16, 2006)

I just watched a video on the Harbor Freight notcher on Youtube and the thing was like 1/8" off center. A solution was offered, but still, why buy a tool you need to fix out of the box? 
Like Joel said you'll need a low speed drill/press to make that thing work. Just buy some files and rough cut the tubes with a hacksaw.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Has anyone considered some sort of guide system for hand filing?

I'm thinking (and I use the term loosely) of some sort of guide/rod that extends off the front of the file into a bushing that holds the file at an angle or on center? Something like those knife sharpeners?

Or what about some sort of tubing clamp that puts a bearing/roller in front of and in back of the tube, and you file down until you're on the rollers, so you can get the right length and angle?

Because the labor of filing never bothered me, it was the lack of accuracy (of which I am mostly to blame, sure).


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

Issues with that particular joint jigger aside, a bench vise/hand drill combo is a viable alternative to a drill press.


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## adarn (Aug 11, 2009)

*Hmmmm,*

I really don't mind hand mitering either. I'm just worried about my accuracy. 
After watching that video it seems like it could be pretty easy to get that thing working well too.

I'm still curious to hear from someone who has used this for building bikes though. Anyone?


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## stuntnuts (Dec 7, 2010)

What video? link??


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## doug fattic (Mar 11, 2010)

dr.welby said:


> Has anyone considered some sort of guide system for hand filing?


Yes. I bought many of the framebuilding tools from the shop of Johnny Berry in Manchester England while I was apprenticing at Ellis-Briggs in the UK in 1975. His widow told me of a method Johnny used that would work well for novices to get accurate miters. She had already sold them before I had a chance to buy them. He had hardened blocks made similar to drill bushings which on one end had the shape and angle of a miter. The end of the tube sticking out could be filed to the miter shape because the block's material was too hard for the file to bit into while filing the tube. 2 of these blocks could be sequenced together to insure a top tube would have miters in phase and at the right length (while at the same time be on center and at the correct angle and shape of course). I've already talked to a friend to see if we can bring these tools to the hobby market.


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## adarn (Aug 11, 2009)

couldn't figure out how to embed it, but here is a link:
Harbor Freight Tubing Notcher Modifications - YouTube


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

doug fattic said:


> Yes. I bought many of the framebuilding tools from the shop of Johnny Berry in Manchester England while I was apprenticing at Ellis-Briggs in the UK in 1975. His widow told me of a method Johnny used that would work well for novices to get accurate miters. She had already sold them before I had a chance to buy them. He had hardened blocks made similar to drill bushings which on one end had the shape and angle of a miter. The end of the tube sticking out could be filed to the miter shape because the block's material was too hard for the file to bit into while filing the tube. 2 of these blocks could be sequenced together to insure a top tube would have miters in phase and at the right length (while at the same time be on center and at the correct angle and shape of course). I've already talked to a friend to see if we can bring these tools to the hobby market.


So was the angle fixed?

What if you had the split blocks engraved with a vernier scale so you could offset the blocks to get a range of angles?

Hmmm, I'm going to have to play with SketchUp a bit, I think.


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## jgrano (Dec 5, 2011)

The tube notcher program from Nova works well for round tubes. 


Anyone find one for an oval tube though?


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## doug fattic (Mar 11, 2010)

dr.welby said:


> So was the angle fixed?
> 
> What if you had the split blocks engraved with a vernier scale so you could offset the blocks to get a range of angles?


Yes, the angles were fixed. This system requires one block for each angle and tube diameter.

I've never used a tube notcher myself but from past posts on various forums it seems like the only ones that work well are the expensive ones. The laser cutting company that makes my stainless steel fixtures uses one that they paid around $300 for that they say works well in a production environment.

From watching students when they try to miter by hand in my framebuilding classes, I know a certain percentage of people will never it right. They either lack the natural skills or patience to do a really accurate job. This is why I'm happy to have a Bridgeport vertical mill and a mitering system of my own design so that anybody can get perfect miters every time.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Maybe something like this (10 minute SketchUp job, with some of the software's quirks reflected in the design):


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## rocwandrer (Oct 19, 2008)

I've used the harbor freight tool (still have it somewhere). For pierced joints (what I bought it for) it was fiddly to setup (centerline error was one issue, but there were others), but did function. For everything else, sawzall followed by file was more accurate and perhaps a hair quicker for me. The guide bushing is sloppy to start with, and wears quickly even with frequent lubrication. It is easier to use clamped in a vice and with a 1/2" chuck hand drill with side handle (make sure you have good health insurance if you are planning to try it without the side handle and with cheap holesaws). With a drill press, I'd just make an angle adjustable tube block holder (or cut wedges from wood or metal and use that to set the angle of the tube blocks). It would be more accurate and easier that way.


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## slimdog (May 28, 2011)

dr.welby said:


> Maybe something like this (10 minute SketchUp job, with some of the software's quirks reflected in the design):


Not sure what exactly is going on there.

Does the tube run vertically through the center and then each half of the jig can move up or down to determine the angle. The file runs along the rollers?

Gota love sketchup of quick ideas.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

slimdog said:


> Not sure what exactly is going on there.
> 
> Does the tube run vertically through the center and then each half of the jig can move up or down to determine the angle. The file runs along the rollers?


Yup, though the rollers are there more as a "stop", though they also should keep you on center. Or at least that's the theory.

There's a seam missing on the far side of the tube bore, so it's not as clear as it should be.


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## Smokebikes (Feb 2, 2008)

This program can help...........
Tube Notcher +


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## adarn (Aug 11, 2009)

Yeah, obviously I am aware of tube notcher. It is a good program, but I like the idea of having "perfect" miters quickly (and if it _was_ that cheap it would totally be worth it for me), which is why I was interested in the harbor freight tools. It looks like they're not worth it though.

Looks like I'll stick to the files for now, and maybe think about building a belt mitering set up some day if need be.


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## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

with practice, you can hand miter a tube pretty quickly. I used to have some wooden blocks to mark miters with, a friend made them with hole saws and 2x4 lumber. They work pretty well. The downtube block gets you close, and then you can change the angle a degree or two by eye.


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

Back in the day when I playing around with welding and building a frame (Just saying to my wife tonight I NEED to get back at it) I bought a Harbor Freight tube notcher... took it home and played with it, it was WAY off. Brought it back thinking something was wrong with it and got a new one...WAY off too. I wouldn't recommend it.


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## BigHank53 (May 19, 2011)

There are good mitering setups. None of them are cheap. For the same amount of money as the crappy Harbor Freight holesaw thing, go and buy yourself a set of Wiss aviation snips and a big Nicholson half-round bastard file. Good snips will let you rough out a miter in thirty seconds, and you're either going to have to learn to finish a miter by hand or buy a mill. Cut up an old frame or buy a couple cheap tubes and start practicing.


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## mickuk (Jul 6, 2007)

I'm using one of the more expensive notchers - it is a good a half way house between the cheapies and a proper mill setup. Money well spent for what it has helped with so far.

Billet Steel Hole Saw Tube Notcher

Even with this I have to use a proper gauge rather than trust the engraved graduations to get the angle right. Also needed a slight tweak to make it cut perfectly on centre - I think it was originally designed / made to suit imperial bolts, but in the UK it is sold with metric. So replacing some bolts with imperial has improved the accuracy.

It is very stiff / robust which I think is the real key - so with some ingenuity it can be adapted with bits of wood / plate / extra G claps to mitre brazed up assys (e.g. a pair of chainstays in one cut). Works best on the bench with a regular variable speed trigger hand drill (so you can do a slow start - amazingly much better than using it with a full drill press!).


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## stuntnuts (Dec 7, 2010)

After watching that video I can safely say that the Harbor Freight notcher looks dreadful.

If you choose to not miter with hand files and don't have room in your basement for a 5000 pound Bridgeport, invest $275 and get yourself a JD2 Notchmaster and some Twits. It's in a completely different class compared to that Harbor Freight unit.

Notch Master Tube Notcher

Notching thin wall tubing or notch sort pieces of tube


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## Hooder (Jul 21, 2009)

*tube blocks and press vise?*

Has anyone tried using hole saws in a drill press securing the tube with tube blocks (like paragon) in a press vise? It would similar to a mill set up. Do you think it would be stiff enough?


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

Hooder said:


> Do you think it would be stiff enough?


Maybe with the right equipment, but with my basic setup I found it waaaayyyyyy too scary.

There's a reason every production shop uses a milling machine. If they could use smaller and cheaper drill presses they would.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hooder said:


> Has anyone tried using hole saws in a drill press securing the tube with tube blocks (like paragon) in a press vise? It would similar to a mill set up. Do you think it would be stiff enough?


I would think...

...That you'd want to go through the same justification process (squaring the drill quill to the tube holder) that you would on a mill, which is moderately tedious even there. You'd also want to have a fairly substantial table on your drill press to make things stable. You would also have a hard time setting the point of your cut accurately, for both center-of-tube and length of CS distance. Absent the luxury of a mill, it could be done, but you'd also want the capability to run the saw REALLY SLOW, and I don't think most drill presses would accommodate that in stock form, let alone have the torque to drive the saw hard.

You may be able to pull all of that off, but the main reason for a mill is simply the mass, which is intended to dampen tool and accuracy killing vibration more than anything else. I always thought my mill was huge at 100lbs plus, but the reality is that it is a pretty small one. You'll never get that stability with a drill press, even bolted to the floor, even if you had a lateral feed (X axis) table bolted on it. Heck... I even have trouble drilling good holes on my elcheapo drill press. I mostly only use it for simple counter sinking holes I just drilled on the mill.

But... if I didn't have the mill, I'd be contemplating the same thing you are, no doubt. Even if you could pull it off, I'd not expect it to be accurate enough to avoid finishing with a file anyway.


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## rocwandrer (Oct 19, 2008)

Hooder said:


> Has anyone tried using hole saws in a drill press securing the tube with tube blocks (like paragon) in a press vise? It would similar to a mill set up. Do you think it would be stiff enough?


I've done something like that with good success. It did take a while to setup, and the drill press (borrowed) was able to go quite slow, and was quite stiff by itself. I'm a little foggy on the details at this point, as that was almost a decade ago, but here is what I remember:

I did not use a press vice. I used a wedge cut to the appropriate angle, and clamped the tube block and wedge to the drill press table (using a wooden block on the bottom of the table to oppose the ramp angle I think). I made sure the position of the tube put the cut at the tangent point relative to the drill press table. I then made fine adjustments in the miter position by swinging the whole assembly that last 40 thou or whatever about the table mount.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

I find that with my JD2 tube notcher a higher speed makes a cleaner cut with less grab. I am way over the true surface speed for steel but the cut sure seems to do better with a bit more spindle speed then one would expect. A hole saw is not normal machining and although cutting at higher speed with slower feed is not always typical machining practice it seems to work better in this case.


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## mickuk (Jul 6, 2007)

Using a drill press and tube clamp blocks with holesaws sometimes works but can get a bit dodgy when cuts aren't at 90 degrees / perpendicular. Most drill presses use a morse taper to hold the chuck (and hence the holesaw). The offset cutting load of an angled mitre (only one side of the holesaw touches tube at first) can make the morse taper come apart.....

Milling machines etc use other kinds of mechanical fastening to hold the cutter and cope with offset loads (e.g. still a taper but used in conjunction with a thread to hold everything together)


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## RCP FAB (Jun 15, 2011)

I used this set up for a year with out issue. Its a pain to set up if you take the v block out of the vise. 1500 rpm and a spray of T9 rips though basic 4130, leaving perfect notches. Hardened tubing, 500 rpm and a good 3 minutes of feeding the hole saw down worked, but it was tough on your arm moving the handle that slow.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

dr.welby said:


> Maybe something like this (10 minute SketchUp job, with some of the software's quirks reflected in the design):


Neat design....but......

All that a contraption like this would do is completely stunt you as to learning the correct way to file.

If you ever had a chance to learn to do it straight, like riding forever on training wheels this would prevent you from ever building your skills. I think we look for an easy fix too often today. One can file a miter quite easily and unless you have a good setup (mill, lathe, grinder etc) the rest of it is just harder to handle and manipulate than a file.


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

When I first started out, I did a few by hand. With the right files, I was pleasantly surprised how good I could do a miter in a very short time - without using any templates. I picked up a used JD2 notcher, and I found that it took practically twice as long and I still had to use a file a lot to get the angle just right. Setting a notcher to cut at say 56.5 degrees can be difficult. I went back to using files.

I agree with what Dave is saying in that you may use a notcher for the main tubes, but what are you going to do for the seat and chain stays? Unless you have all the pro equipment, I think it's best to just learn how to use files. Once you become proficient, it's a pretty quick process.

I've also gone back to using templates, but I note that you can still be half a degree off and still be at your line. A single swipe of the file can take off fractions of a degree, and learning how to use that is a valuable skill. Regardless, you still have to have a means of checking your angles along the way.


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## stuntnuts (Dec 7, 2010)

In case some of you guys missed it, here's my custom seat stay/chain stay notcher I built to incorporate JD2 components. I use a JD2 NotchMaster 100% stock out of the box to do my front triangles. I also use a Wixey digital protractor to set my angles on both devices.

No files and no Bridgeport in my shop, just clean, accurate miters!

http://forums.mtbr.com/8478911-post45.html


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

dbohemian said:


> All that a contraption like this would do is completely stunt you as to learning the correct way to file.


Unless you already know how to file and are looking to make the process better without having to buy a mill.

Where do you draw the line, anyway? Is Tubemiter a crutch? How about a gasfluxer?


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

dr.welby said:


> Unless you already know how to file and are looking to make the process better without having to buy a mill.
> 
> Where do you draw the line, anyway? Is Tubemiter a crutch? How about a gasfluxer?


Concerning filing, this thing would only hinder me, not make the process better. Files are no longer accurately made as far as the radius is concerned and it takes small adjustments to make it right which this item would not allow me to do.

Yes, tubemiter is a crutch most of the time and so is the gas fluxer. How many crutches do you want? Don't know. Seems as time goes on I use some of my fancy tooling less and less as my skills have either rendered it unnecessary or less useful than it used to be.


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## dr.welby (Jan 6, 2004)

dbohemian said:


> Files are no longer accurately made as far as the radius is concerned and it takes small adjustments to make it right which this item would not allow me to do.


If the files aren't accurate then why not fix that? How about a long rod with a handle at one end and a pair of hose clamps that allows you to hold a strip of abrasive roll cloth?

Why can't you take the tubing out of the gadget and then fine tune it? At least you know your miter is on center, phased correctly, and at approximately the right angle. If you need to give it a tap on one side or the other, it shouldn't be a big deal.

At some point you're going to have to measure the angle or the offset between the two sides. Why not have your tubing block do this for you? Admittedly, translating the cutting plane of the file in the gadget to a position on the tube would be a challenge...

And just as a fun thought experiment, given the cost of NC machining going down and the machines getting smaller, what happens when someone like Nova or Pacenti offers a mitering service?


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

dr.welby said:


> At some point you're going to have to measure the angle or the offset between the two sides. Why not have your tubing block do this for you? Admittedly, translating the cutting plane of the file in the gadget to a position on the tube would be a challenge...
> 
> And just as a fun thought experiment, given the cost of NC machining going down and the machines getting smaller, what happens when someone like Nova or Pacenti offers a mitering service?


Most tubing companies used to offer mitered tubes to the larger users. During the heyday you would just assemble them.

I use a mill for mitering but when I teach I just use a bevel protractor, two of the Paragon tube blocks and my surface plate to accurate phase and create the correct angle. This is an over-complication IMO and would actually hinder me in creating a good miter quickly and efficiently. Sorry, but just cause we all have NC equipment now (I have a Hurco) doesn't mean I have to use the dang thing all the time.


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## singlespeedmindset (Jul 20, 2008)

Hey stuntnuts and anyone else with the JD^2 Notchmaster,

It looks like the swivel plate on the Notchmaster is the weak link of the set-up. Does the single bolt holding the shaft and swivel plate really keep the angle locked down and the swivel plate from vibrating? I was thinking about picking up the Notchmaster or the TN-100. To my untrained eye, the TN-100 looks like a more solid set-up with the fixed shaft, but I really like stuntnuts modular adaptations on the Notchmaster. 

stuntnuts - great engineering on your CS and SS jig. You should market those plans although it looks like you really have to commit to a diameter of round tubing.


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## bee (Apr 7, 2008)

singlespeedmindset said:


> Hey stuntnuts and anyone else with the JD^2 Notchmaster,
> 
> It looks like the swivel plate on the Notchmaster is the weak link of the set-up. Does the single bolt holding the shaft and swivel plate really keep the angle locked down and the swivel plate from vibrating? I was thinking about picking up the Notchmaster or the TN-100. To my untrained eye, the TN-100 looks like a more solid set-up with the fixed shaft, but I really like stuntnuts modular adaptations on the Notchmaster.
> 
> stuntnuts - great engineering on your CS and SS jig. You should market those plans although it looks like you really have to commit to a diameter of round tubing.


Check out the syncnotcher. It looks even more solid than the JD2 or TN-100. Downside is that it is way more expensive too.


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## stuntnuts (Dec 7, 2010)

singlespeedmindset.....

The NotchMaster is truly RIGID as all hell. The single bolt holds great. I have yet to have the swivel plate "walk" on me while notching. I'd think that the TN-100 would be ideal for use with a drill press, but for bench-mounted, notching with a hand drill, the NotchMaster is the best.

In order for my CS/SS notcher to work for everybody, you'd need a good CAD program to get you "cut sheet" info from as seen in my pics. Without that info, it's useless and impossible to setup accurately.

As far as tubing diameter sizes, you'd have to change out the tubing blocks to a different size, but still retain the 1" tube centerline above the baseplate. So you could use it for all stay sizes, but would need additional blocks for each size.

bee.....

The SyncNotcher is nice, but check out this video of an upgraded swivel arm for the NotchMaster that Swag Off-Road makes, that really opens up the possibilities for this notcher. I just picked one up and am in the process of notching my first triangle with it....so far, I love it.

SWAG "Reach Around" updrade for JD2 Notchmaster Tubing Notcher.mp4 - YouTube


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

dbohemian said:


> Neat design....but...... All that a contraption like this would do is completely stunt you as to learning the correct way to file.


Yes;

If you seek to be virtuous as a pianist, you must do scales. It is boring and tedious, but it pays off in spades when your fingers move without effort on even the toughest piece. The best at ANYTHING will ALWAYS be classically trained.


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