# Friend or Flow



## Tom Shaw (Feb 19, 2014)

Are Trails Being too "Dumbed Down?"

Really good article in Dirt Rag issue 182 / Feb 2015.

Well written Sarah Galbraith.

Keep up the good work Mark E.


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Thanks for the heads up -- I'll track down a copy ASAP!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

I got a chance to read this article the other day. I've got some thoughts on it, I can sympathize with both sides, to some extent. As a builder, I've heard so much crying for more advanced trails. So I build trails with advanced, technical features, and people ride around them. I seriously have guys on 6" travel bikes that won't ride a double step down drop into a turn that I ride on a rigid SS. 

In the same breath, I've caught a LOT of guff from some of the guys around here for my opinion that a piece of flow trail built at a local park by some pros and marked as beginner trail is the most fun trail in the park. The same guys who think the intermediate flow trails are more fun (because there are more jumps!) tell me this trail is boring. Yet, it has great, great sight lines, awesome berms, it's everything you want a trail to be for a beginner to get comfortable on something like this (plus, twice the descent) and as a result, as you get better, as a rider, you can go faster and faster down it. Again, on a rigid SS (which quickly leaves me completely spun out on this trail) I can smoke the guys who say this trail is boring. It's boring because they won't let go of their brakes.

I've pretty much given up on listening to anything other than "Thank you" or "could you" with regards to a trail. Legitimate requests for features are something I will take into account. Otherwise, people to bag trails or builders, I just don't have time for. Bottom line: Do you have a trail you can ride? Then shut up, quit complaining about it, and ride the trail. (Old geezer mode) Back in my day, we didn't HAVE mountain bike trails ....


----------



## Summit Ridge Guy (Aug 16, 2010)

Ditto. Complainers now sound like Charlie Brown's teacher "waaa, waaa, waaa..."


----------



## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

In our IMBA Chapter territory it is looking like trail stewardship, a club, and keeping land managers satisfied are depending on what is called flow trail, sanitized or dumbed down trail.

What's silly about the whining is we still have expert only old school trail, and new build for experts even though we are getting some terrain that is good for kids, families and beginners.

Builders and people would always move on or leave a craptacular mess in the old ways. Some changes in our area are getting more support and creating whole families riding. Our youth programs are really growing and that is looking like the single most important part of the changes.

Something else about flow trail. There are skills to be developed there too. I've noticed riders who've not figured out or cared to learn how to pump and pop the features. Others will get it. It's cool to see a section of rollers and berms work for a kid on scoot bike and parent that's also where others fly.

In a matter of weeks in fall 2014 this section of trail got some old school a$$ clowns complaining, parents on their dust covered old bikes to follow their kids, and 3 benefactors to give serious gifts. My sons report their Nordic ski team is commandeered it as their Nordic-cross trail. That's the sustainability I mentioned.


----------



## Tom Shaw (Feb 19, 2014)

The article has so much great information in it. I really liked this quote.

“We shouldn’t put all of our resources into any one type of trail, and no one in Vermont is advocating that we do that. A diversity of riding experiences is the goal.”

- That new flow trail sucks. We need old school tough ones.
+ Was that an offer to build a better one? Our club has the tools and the land if you would like to plan one for our land manager to inspect.

As clubs and trail builders we should try to appeal to a wide range of riding desires. But we should not be expected to do it all by ourselves. I have read on here many times that if you want a certain style then show up to trail build days and I think that is a great response. Our club is allowed to build natural features as a B route, but we must have an easy A route that can be enjoyed by all. It is allowing us to give people choice on the same trail which is something that everyone should like.


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Here's a recent flow trail review from MTBR's staff:

First half of new flow trail at Soquel Demonstration State Forest now open - Mtbr.com


----------



## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

I recently posted some rock armouring in another thread. While we were working there a dude ran up the trail and stopped as we were jigsawing the rocks together. We explained the need to protect the creek line below, as well as the trail, a large tree being affected by runoff and the land manager's desire to remedy a mess. His comment - "Too smooth. The trail is too smooth and needs more turns. This bit (pointing immediately below our work site) is straight."

Over the last 2 years the entire trail has been recreated after the land manager (national park) expressed concern about excessive erosion on a trail too difficult for many riders to ride (it is a blue trail). Half of the new trail was hand made and half by the first independent professional building ever in the park. It is now a contour trail without needless down to go up sections. Apart from this creek section, it drains well. It is possible to start again if you stop. That was almost impossible in the stone-strewn erosion gullies that existed all over the place before. It is the most popular trail in the park and offers excitement when descending, even though the real purpose is to get better riders out the back to tough, old style trails faster while allowing average riders something they can handle closer to the trailhead. It is not smooth by any standard and littered with challenge.

So, said bozo is actually looking down at a surface that traverses 3km of very rocky terrain and about 500m of bog-prone, organic soil with no stone in it, including the 100m he has just run along. It is hard to explain to some people that deep erosion caused by poor trail construction is not rider challenge, it is degraded trail in need of repair or bypass. It may have been different if guys like this ever did any trail maintenance. It is also hard to explain that a blue trail that starts at the trailhead should not be impassible to 90% of riders. It is also hard to explain to someone that leaning over volunteers who are covered in mud and trying to do what the land manager asks while insulting thousands of hours of work you never contributed to is not the done thing. However, digging buddy Doug, a practical Scotsman did quite a good job by asking, "Do you ride as well as whinge?"


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Ridnparadise said:


> However, digging buddy Doug, a practical Scotsman did quite a good job by asking, "Do you ride as well as whinge?"


Ah, see, there's the value of a good Scotsman on a digging crew, outright practicality. And enough sense to sit down and have a pint to think something out, rather than try to kill himself before he thinks it out.


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

I finally got a chance to read Sarah Galbraith's "Friend or Flow" story in Dirt Rag. I sent her a message straightaway to compliment her on the piece and to thank her for accurately relating my thoughts about flow trails. I requested a copy of the story so it can be posted (credited of course) on IMBA's site -- I hope it inspires some further conversations.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

It's already inspired further conversations. I'd look for an episode of Trail Cast discussing it here in the next 3 weeks or so. There will be a bit broader take on it perhaps, than just flow vs tech, but there's a lot of talk.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

All new trail construction in Vt that has been thru VMBA has been either new Easy Trail, or refurbishing of old trail, which has made them easier because people refuse to be challenged and ride around features. Meanwhile, the old eroded trail is passed off as "expert", or difficult trail. There are too many people riding here, promoting riding here, and trying to sell Vt mtb as a product for tourists. Our trail building is federally subsidized because we fail to generate the resources needed to pay for all the work we need to have happen. Looking at the big picture, it seems more and more offensive to me that we are using federal grant money to build trails for people to ride there very expensive bikes on. Our issue here is people do very little trail work, and ride all the time. The reason there is paid work here is because the users refuse to give up their time to put back in. We are developing our ride centers, just like we developed our ski centers 50-60 years ago. Just as we now look at our developed Mtns and realize we cut the trails too wide to hold snow and made a whole lot of boring, generic skiing where there used to be regional character, we are now lining up to make the same mistakes by developing more public lands for out-of-staters to enjoy, not as part of a lifestyle that makes living here great. Sell sell sell, ride ride ride, no dig. 

People leech off of the scene, have meeting, write articles about VT mtb. We need a lot less of that, and a lot more people out doing work, getting more intimate with the process of trail building, and building what they want to ride. If there truly is an abundance of motivated people who ride here in Vt that want a bunch more easy trail, then they should be building it. Instead they pay annual dues (that fund about 15 minutes of work for a crew) blog their brains out about how great our trails are, sell it as a tourist attraction to any mag that will print it, but are really just re-hashing conversation being had in real time within the community. There have been some dedicated folks who have done a ton of work both in advocacy and in actual labor on trail....not many. Recently there has been a lot of people who have very limited experience promoting, hyping, and trying to profit from something that they have yet to really earn the right to. 

"I formed a club!" 
"I wrote an article!"
"We had an event!"

The relationship the vast majority of these folks have with the resource they are attempting to sell, and use regularly is parasitic. The vast majority of folks I know that have really been stewards of the trails in their towns want and have nothing to do with any of the "Official" VMBA/VtMTB trail scene, and although expressing this opinion will generate, almost exclusively, vitriolic responses and personal attacks on places like this or other media forms, at the bar, or on the tailgate in the lot these feelings are much more mainstream. 

We sell our MTBing so cheap. Virtually all trail users in Vt these days do zero work, or a token. This is a huge shift in the nature of what MTBing in Vt was 10 years ago, when VMBA formed. This is the issue at the heart of the debate about what kind of trail we are building, and who we are building it for. Too many meetings, blog, articles, not enough digging. 

If we are going to sell out our riding, as we are, we need to generate real revenue to sustain the use and trail quality, AND difficulty. If our trails are built on a federal grants, are they really sustainable? If people did more work, this debate would not exist.


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

DaveVt's "no dig, no ride" ethic is commendable. Anyone who puts that kind of sweat equity into their trails deserves respect and thanks from other riders. But at the same time I'll point out that the idea of only riding what you have a hand in building would ensure that MTBing gets limited to a fringe sport with little resources either financially or politically. This approach might easily lead a land managers to conclude, "Wow, you guys build great trails but there are only a handful of you and the general public gets no value our of trails that they can't ride. Sorry but we can't approve any more MTB trails on these public lands."


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Mark E said:


> DaveVt's "no dig, no ride" ethic is commendable. Anyone who puts that kind of sweat equity into their trails deserves respect and thanks from other riders. But at the same time I'll point out that the idea of only riding what you have a hand in building would ensure that MTBing gets limited to a fringe sport with little resources either financially or politically. This approach might easily lead a land managers to conclude, "Wow, you guys build great trails but there are only a handful of you and the general public gets no value our of trails that they can't ride. Sorry but we can't approve any more MTB trails on these public lands."


Everyone who rides should do regular trail work. Everyone. They should have input on what is built if they are putting in time. How the trails should be built should be dictated by who is working regularly. I get the value of easy trails. We should build them, with the help of masses of volunteers. All the people that love flow trails and easy trails who never do any work should be walking behind the excavator with loppers, or whatever their root trimming tool of choice is, and the metal rake, and compactor. They should understand the basic steps of building the trails they are riding. The more they show up, the more they learn, the more input they earn, the more they can tackle the fun projects like rock work, bridges, berms and jump shaping. Local riders will feel a greater sense of ownership over their local trails. That is a local scene growing in a positive way from the roots up. Having a bike only gets you half way there. You need a trail. "I pay my 50 bucks, build me a trail." doesn't work.

As it is now, we are promised so many hour of volunteer time on projects bid, they are never achieved. How are the paid builders gonna make the numbers work when they are promised say 400 hours of volunteer labor as indicated on the grant application, and end up with 50....1/3 of which were 9 year olds?

If VMBA could show the state 50 ppl showing up twice a month working down the checklist of issues on any given trail, things would be fine. They have given the nod to legalize lots of existing trail that most people can't ride, I think they care less about what we build and more about how sustainable it is, how organized the club is, and how quickly and affectively their concerns are dealt with. If riders don't want to work, they should be paying a lot more then they currently do.

I'm not saying only ride what you build, I'm saying help build and maintain your local stuff and ride wherever you want. I'd rather have a rider put in 100 hours of trail work over the 8-9 months of riding then pay VMBA dues and then feel like they have the right to ***** at me when I'm out working. Everyone I know that has been on a paid crew around here has vocalized this in some way, shape or form.


----------



## Wildfire (Feb 4, 2004)

DaveVt said:


> As it is now, we are promised so many hour of volunteer time on projects bid, they are never achieved. How are the paid builders gonna make the numbers work when they are promised say 400 hours of volunteer labor as indicated on the grant application, and end up with 50....1/3 of which were 9 year olds?


Seen the same thing. It's a tough call when bidding on jobs that call for a blend of contractor and volunteer labor. A club gets a grant for a perhaps overly-ambitious trail project and hires a contractor to do the layout, rough excavating and basic shaping. A small group of dedicated volunteers show up for a few work sessions and get overwhelmed by the amount of work it takes to finish the trail, thus burning out the few folks that show on a regular basis. And then the club blames the contractor for the unbuffed final product, when the arrangement was for volunteers to perform that work. It's just a recipe for bad feelings and frustration for all parties involved. Too bad that everyone seems to somehow be able to find time to go riding, but it's a different story when work days come around.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

And that's the real rub isn't it? It's nearly always the people who don't show up to work on trails who do the most damage to trails as well, riding when there's not way you can make an argument that you even had a good time. I've seen guys coming off my trails pushing their bikes after a huge thaw with so much gummy clay stuck to them the back wheel won't even turn. Oh look, more work for the trail crews.

If I was of a more even temperament I would talk to them about what they're doing wrong at that point. But I'm not. When I see stuff like that happen, what I really want to do is violence. So I end up walking away. The only way I can reach these people is if they ride with me, then I can bring up problems in a passing, non-accusatory manner and talk about etiquette in such a way that I don't feel like making new trail features out of the riders in question.

I think there is a huge percentage of riders who have no idea how trails get where they are. They think the trails have always been there, or Uncle Sugar takes care of building them, or someone gets paid to build them, or anything except...whoa, you mean that group of guys standing around at the trail head built all of this? The ones with all those old bikes, and grey hair, and faded camelbaks, and ratty looking baggies? It's part of the reason I took up my podcast. I don't know if it will ever help, but if one person turns to their local club and starts helping with trails because of it, I'll count the whole thing a success.

I do believe that more riders should equal more builders, or more paying members of a community. Something like, show up to at least 3 work days a year, or pay $X more membership. But that means we, as the builders, riders, and advocates, need reach more people, and that means reaching out to them in a way that makes them want to be part of what we have. Not being elitest priggs.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Cotharyus said:


> And that's the real rub isn't it? It's nearly always the people who don't show up to work on trails who do the most damage to trails as well....
> 
> I think there is a huge percentage of riders who have no idea how trails get where they are. They think the trails have always been there, or Uncle Sugar takes care of building them, or someone gets paid to build them, or anything except...whoa, you mean that group of guys standing around at the trail head built all of this? The ones with all those old bikes, and grey hair, and faded camelbaks, and ratty looking baggies? ......
> 
> I do believe that more riders should equal more builders, or more paying members of a community. Something like, show up to at least 3 work days a year, or pay $X more membership. But that means we, as the builders, riders, and advocates, need reach more people, and that means reaching out to them in a way that makes them want to be part of what we have. Not being elitest priggs.


In Vt we have pretty aggressively nipped the mud riding in the bud BITD. Before VMBA, before the Stowe Bike Club we would just run down people in the parking lot and let them know they weren't riding....then we were NAZIs, you can read some trail reviews of Stowe on here, visitors were weary of the angry locals. Now everyone just knows not to MTB if the trail is soft and most people get it.

I agree about folks not understanding life w/o trail networks. Not only do they not understand how much time has been poured in to create the trails they ride all summer, either new flow trails or primitive, raked in trails, but they also don't understand how much time it takes to fix existing. If they were doing the work, they would care a lot more about how other riders used the trails.

Visitors need to pay A LOT MORE. In a state where a day of skiing can cost 100 dollars per day, why are our MTB resources available for free, or 50 bucks for the year if you feel like it? I don't really like the pay to play model but we can't keep marketing our stuff to users and take in little to nothing in return in hopes that a transportation grant, which should be used to fix Rt 12 ferchrissake, will come thru and provide a couple weeks worth of work on a trail network getting so beat down it needs a full time crew for an entire season to really buff it out again.

As far as drawing volunteers in by not being pricks...tough one. Grown ups riding bikes in the forest apparently don't like to be told what to do, and by and large all ready know everything about trails because they ride them all the time.

In the town I live I spent 4 years route finding and clearing a trail high up on the ridge. It was what I would call an intermediate single track. I built it with very little help. It probably took me 1000 hours for under a mile and a half all told. One day I got a call at home from a local that does no work. She wanted to just let me know that she was angry at me because she could not ride the trail. As shocked as I was....I fixed it. I dumbed down my own trail so a local could enjoy riding it more. Then I cleared another single track that literally leads to their drive way. Still can't get any work out of her. The things people say to us out on trail during work and mind boggling. Everyone has an opinion, but when you ask them the magic question...How much trail work do you do, the answer is always the same. 0. People who do put in time.....never say anything but thank you.

We had a club president resign after getting a call at home from a local who was angry because we fixed erosion that he saw as a trail feature...he admits to doing no trail work. We had half the board on the Stowe Club get lost on some of the oldest single track in town....ask the people in Stowe who are out there keeping the trails open and clear year after year to show up for a club event and they literally laugh.

All this debate about what kind of trail should we be building....it's ********. Build what you want to ride. If there is such a huge need for easy stuff, then all those people can help build it. If none of them show up ever, like now, then their voice won't and shouldn't be heard, and the more advanced rides should build what they want to ride in a sustainable way, which from what I have seen in Vermont is totally acceptable to the State land managers from my experiences building on State lands for the last several years.

Spending more time at the key board promoting riding instead of creating and maintaining riding....part of the problem.

We need a culture shift. No dig, No ride. We should see this message in all the glossy ads. We should read this message in every fluff-piece-turn-advertisement-for-tourism. We should build trail to have a local resource for our quality of life, and it's character should reflect the local riders wants and needs, not those of visitors that throw around their nickels as if they were man hole covers.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

DaveVt said:


> Visitors need to pay A LOT MORE. In a state where a day of skiing can cost 100 dollars per day, why are our MTB resources available for free, or 50 bucks for the year if you feel like it? I don't really like the pay to play model but we can't keep marketing our stuff to users and take in little to nothing in return in hopes that a transportation grant, which should be used to fix Rt 12 ferchrissake, will come thru and provide a couple weeks worth of work on a trail network getting so beat down it needs a full time crew for an entire season to really buff it out again.


I don't know that I agree with this. For instance, Massanutten mountain in Va has a use pass that you have to have to ride there. It's private land, but the trail work is done by SVBC volunteers. I used to be able to ride there for free, because I worked at Massanutten resort. But 20 years ago, the trails were nothing like what they are today. The problem is, I haven't been back in many, many years, because the cost of the permit, designed to be a one year access pass, is prohibitive for someone who visits the area two weeks out of a year. What's the turn around? If someone in the SVBC comes down here, do get to charge them $50 to ride the trails that *I* built? I view this as a quid pro quo situation. When you come here, you're welcome to ride my trails. But for ***** sake, respect my trails too. I'm going to do the same when I'm visiting your area. In fact, I've had planned rides fall through because of weather, and ended up at work days in places where I don't live. That's easy for me to do, because most of the places I ride, I know the guys who are building trails. I agree with you, we need a fundamental shift in culture to a point where we have 95% of riders working on trails as well as riding, rather than the current 5% (actual numbers based on my area) at which point I think EVERYTHING gets better. But I think we disagree on how to get there.



DaveVt said:


> Spending more time at the key board promoting riding instead of creating and maintaining riding....part of the problem.


I spend an average of 20 hours a week building or maintaining trail. If you're referring to my podcast as my efforts at promoting riding, I recommend you listen to it. I've got the only podcast about mountain biking that I'm aware of that doesn't talk about gear, or silly crap, or endurance racing, or how to mountain bike, and build skills or trail for the next race. Mine is about the trails, stewardship, building, and generally trying to get people involved in TRAIL advocacy rather than mountain biking advocacy, although it is done from the standpoint of mountain biking.

Trail Cast


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

My comments are specific to Vt...as the article is. If everyone pitched in, we wouldn't need to raise more money for paid crews. As it stands now, I'd rather charge a lot for access for out-of-staters then use tax dollars to fund our activities. More of a direct funding then a public funding model. 

It's true some people would not come here to ride, but some would. If we charge 10 times as much, and visits drop 1/5, we made more money, and had less wear and tear on our trails....win win. If you pay taxes working and living in Vt....ride away for free...or a nominal donation as it is now. 

Building for ourselves and charging a lot for access from visitors might make folks more inclined to think about coming up and living and contributing more to life in Vt in general....economic impact studies and real impacts of tourism in real life are very different, and not nearly as beneficial to average Vters as we would be led to believe, and the draw backs tourism creates in our daily lives and state resources are never adequately represented when these financial "Gains" are talked about with land managers in hopes of gaining access.


----------



## TiRyder (Mar 8, 2005)

Cotharyus said:


> The problem is, I haven't been back in many, many years, because the cost of the permit, designed to be a one year access pass, is prohibitive for someone who visits the area two weeks out of a year. What's the turn around?


Following this thread with interest, as we are preparing presentations in which we use both VT and Massanutten as examples of how to do things right, _for the right scenario_.

SVBC has done an amazing job at Massanutten, and those trails are a schoolbook example of proper trailbuilding technique, as well as negotiating and working with private land owners and other user groups, mainly the hunting community that also uses the property.

One thing I would say, though, is that I do not think it is fair to analyze Massanutten on the 50.00 fee (100% of which is reinvested in the trail system), without also mentioning that SVBC will also accept a promise of 8 hours of trail work in that calendar riding year in lieu of cashola. This actually sounds like it should appeal perfectly to you, Cothyrus.

This is a perfect example that could potentially work in some areas of Vt and across the nation.

Here is the policy, from this page: Shenandoah Valley Bicycle Coalition

Complete the part of the SVBC membership form that specifies whether you will:•pay* $50 for an annual pass OR
•commit** to volunteering 8 hours of trail before November 1st.

* All funds go to SVBC and the SVBC's Massanutten Trail Work Fund
** You don't have to complete trail work prior to getting your pass unless you have failed to complete the prior year's trail work.


----------



## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

DaveVT you are making way too much sense for me!


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

epic said:


> DaveVT you are making way too much sense for me!


 Can't wait to make some new trail this spring in your neck of the woods.


----------



## SunDog (Feb 21, 2004)

DaveVt said:


> Everyone who rides should do regular trail work. Everyone. They should have input on what is built if they are putting in time. How the trails should be built should be dictated by who is working regularly. I get the value of easy trails. We should build them, with the help of masses of volunteers. All the people that love flow trails and easy trails who never do any work should be walking behind the excavator with loppers, or whatever their root trimming tool of choice is, and the metal rake, and compactor. They should understand the basic steps of building the trails they are riding. The more they show up, the more they learn, the more input they earn, the more they can tackle the fun projects like rock work, bridges, berms and jump shaping. Local riders will feel a greater sense of ownership over their local trails. That is a local scene growing in a positive way from the roots up. Having a bike only gets you half way there. You need a trail. "I pay my 50 bucks, build me a trail." doesn't work.
> 
> As it is now, we are promised so many hour of volunteer time on projects bid, they are never achieved. How are the paid builders gonna make the numbers work when they are promised say 400 hours of volunteer labor as indicated on the grant application,
> and end up with 50....1/3 of which were 9 year olds?
> ...


I have to disagree with masses of MTBers showing up to do their feel good trail maintenance, all too often turns into herding cats, being polite and then reworking some of the work after the trail work party. It is good if you have a simple plan and adequite supervision when numbers are needed but by and large my experience 
shows that a small group on the same sheet of music can achieve the same as an ungainly group of volunteers who feel they have to do it too feel good about themselves.

IMO ND-NR has it place, this is one key way how our sport progresses. ND-NR 
generally applies to high skill/high risk, and its critical to understand exactly what your riding. I think ND-NR has played a crucial role in the evolution of flow trails.


----------



## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

DaveVt said:


> Can't wait to make some new trail this spring in your neck of the woods.


Me either. No dig, no ride....


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

SunDog said:


> I have to disagree with masses of MTBers showing up to do their feel good trail maintenance, all too often turns into herding cats, being polite and then reworking some of the work after the trail work party. It is good if you have a simple plan and adequite supervision when numbers are needed but by and large my experience
> shows that a small group on the same sheet of music can achieve the same as an ungainly group of volunteers who feel they have to do it too feel good about themselves.
> 
> IMO ND-NR has it place, this is one key way how our sport progresses. ND-NR
> generally applies to high skill/high risk, and its critical to understand exactly what your riding. I think ND-NR has played a crucial role in the evolution of flow trails.


Of course this is true. Unskilled volunteers hinder the process of building. That is kind of what I mean by a culture shift. Riding should mean doing work. Avid riders should be able to show up and bench cut w/o much supervision. Keep water bars flowing. Fill pot holes with crushed rock...trim sight lines, cut roots out of excavated trail, rake the tread evenly, clean up the back slope and tamp and compact. All the basic stuff. If builders could count on consistent, reasonably skilled volunteer turn out they could plan accordingly, and focus on the more technical aspects of the build out and be ready to manage a bit on volunteer days. It breaks down when no one shows up and those that do want to make rock cairns and trail art....


----------



## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

This is one of the better conversations we have had here in years. 

I've ridden in VT and Massanutten. Several times a year. I really appreciate the time people put in. 

I think most of us here have our build chops and then some. 

The discussion is clutch when we think about the following concepts:
1) we need more builders to build, how do we get folks out? 
2) do we build for ourselves, our community, everyone, or the 80/20 rule concept of 80% of use will be on 20% of trails? 
3) if it is 80/20 how the hell do we keep up with maintenance? 
4) I think we are all getting better about adapting the IMBA guidelines to our local situations, which means less wear and tear TM but if you have 80/20 how do we keep up? 

We have maybe 8 maintained riding areas and about 100 miles of trail across our area. Trying to balance general maintenance, new building, and trail crew leader burnout is tough as heck. But I agree, without buy in or constant vigilance in heckling trail abusers, not have every one do at least 3 hours of work a season takes away from our sport. 

I'm not convinced that having more people participate in the sport (and not trail work or advocacy) actually gets us anything with Land Managers. I think our gains have been because we are demonstrating we know more about mitigating impact on resources than any other user group, organize to do work, and can plan and execute on commitments. We have had a fight on the image side but now that we have results and we're not just "kids" we have credibility we didn't a decade or even 5 years ago. 

I don't think its numbers of participants that got us here folks, and as such we should ask the questions Dave is asking... Are we on the front lines of our sport becoming a packaged experience? 

I wonder about this stuff all the time... I'm President of a successful chapter, we have more cash in than out, deploy a significant amount of cash, and deliver a great multiple of volunteer hours to our membership base.

Food for thought. 

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


----------



## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

And if unskilled people would ever turn up at all, eventually they'd at least be semi-skilled.


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

I think this discussion really shows the broad range of situations that the MTB community faces. While there are lots of similarities, there are also many differences. For one thing, take the example provided by thefriar above, I can say that having more people participate in our sport absolutely DOES have a positive impact with land managers where I live and ride. I'm on the trail committee of our local land trust / trail organization. Mountain bike access isn't controversial, so there's not much local need for access advocacy the way there is in other areas. With a multi-use trail network, a large ridership is a powerful demonstration of trails' importance in the local community, and it gives me something to reference when advocating (at the table) for more bike-optimized trails.

So from my position, there is a huge need for trails for all abilities. The goals I'm pursuing are more lower grade trails with fewer switchbacks, as well as more challenging and technical trails. We have the middle ground nailed down pretty well.

As far as "no dig, no ride" I think everyone should help out at monthly volunteer days where they can, but I don't feel any more strongly than that. I'm a super-vol with the local trail group, so I have a tool in my hand as much as pretty much any of the other volunteers. But the trail builders I know don't want an (untrained) army, and they prefer to get a lot of work done on their own, with the super-vols, or most often, with Americorps crews. And I've put as much time as anyone into our local bike park, and sometimes I wish the people I see riding there would help us. It feels like a thankless job, and it's really irritating when someone rides a wet pump track. But in the end I do it because I want to.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

TiRyder said:


> One thing I would say, though, is that I do not think it is fair to analyze Massanutten on the 50.00 fee (100% of which is reinvested in the trail system), without also mentioning that SVBC will also accept a promise of 8 hours of trail work in that calendar riding year in lieu of cashola. This actually sounds like it should appeal perfectly to you, Cothyrus.


It would appeal to me just fine, if I had a guaranteed opportunity to do 8 hours worth of work when I was there. Like I said, I'm only there for 2 weeks a year, tops, visiting family. Only one time in the past 5 years has there been a work day scheduled with SVBC that coincided with my visit. Also, you have to be an SVBC member to purchase a pass, I believe, if you check carefully. I already pay IMBA dues, dues to the local club here (COGS), so if I pay dues there, that's three, then the pass cost. I won't name names, but I've had conversations with people about this, inside of SVBC and Massanutten. I suggested something like a $10 day pass for visitors, and was told it wasn't worth the hassle. There are two individuals that are all about the current system and not changing anything.

Here's the flip side. If I go over to a friend's house, who is an SVBC member, and does have a pass, I can throw my bike in his truck and go riding with him. Technically, I'm still supposed to have a pass, but since it's a window decal thing that's spot checked in the parking lot, you can get away with this. Still, if I'm in the area around Christmas, most people are spending the time with their families, and not trying to burn a day mountain biking.

I'm not trying to bag on SVBC or Massanutten. I DO want to be clear about that. I have a huge amount of respect for the management at Massanutten allowing all this (again, these are people I know, because I used to work there) and a huge amount of respect for the SVBC folks, because they have been making great things happen for mountain biking (and cycling in general) in the 'burg since before SVCB was actually a thing (which I know because I used to live and ride there with a lot of these guys). I'm simply using this as an example of something that could be handled better. If (when?) I move back to that area, I have zero issues paying SVBC dues, and I expect they'll get much, much more than 8 hours per year of work out of me, so the pass becomes a non-issue. It's only as a visitor I take issue with the cost of the pass.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

thefriar said:


> Are we on the front lines of our sport becoming a packaged experience?
> Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


This is the essence of the "Friend or Flow", if you will, debate. Vermont has recently gone all in on selling our local scenes. The State and Federal land managers as well as state tourism folks are so sold on tourism.


----------



## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Cory... You can get a day pass. It's like $8-$10, you just need to sign an ewaiver and print the pass 

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Mandatory trail work for club members. Money alone isn't enough. You must do 2 trail days a year. Like 6+ hour days. Pop-ins mid ride to scratch around for an hour don't count. If you're dealing with a new member who has never done any work....they must attend one of a few 2 day training classes put on by a *Qualified* individual...once trained members can show up to any old trail day, and with enough experience are released into the wild to putter on smaller more technical jobs as they see fit...which is IMO the most productive and rewarding kind of work. Off the top of my head.

Getting people on the trail to do meaningful work, as we know, curbs abusive activities, and gets riders invested in a more meaningful way then a paid membership. Everyone involved would have a better understanding of how trails are impacted, repaired, created. They would understand how their line choice makes the trail really and we could curb widening at tech features, get people to respect harder trail by riding or walking on the trail and not wandering off through the forest in search of a line they can ride. Basically, if everyone was made to do some work and take some instruction, everything bad would disappear. We'd be close to a real sustainable use both in trail use and in funding and caring for our own resource without grants and bureaucracy, things that inevitably bring the suckage into all fun things.
Also want to mention that as passionate as we are about this stuff, we're still grown ups riding on bikes in the woods...first world situation for sure.


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

DaveVt said:


> This is the essence of the "Friend or Flow", if you will, debate. Vermont has recently gone all in on selling our local scenes. The State and Federal land managers as well as state tourism folks are so sold on tourism.


From where I sit, concern about mountain biking becoming a packaged experience is overblown. There are places to be concerned about tourism or boosterism, particularly in cases where the resource can't accommodate it. But, even if mountain biking becomes way more popular, does it lose something? I'd argue it doesn't.

As is often the case, skiing provides a good model. The opportunity for a pure backcountry experience (alpine or Nordic) is still there alongside the resort experience. Maybe as trail centers and bike parks grow we'll see something similar. Sure you need trails for riding so the analogy isn't perfect, but there are many miles of trails here that need little more maintenance than clearing downed timber.

FWIW, I'm solidly on board with promoting our local resource. It's good for the local economy, who support the trail network, and it's a good lever for improvement. Having a quiet little thing on the down-low on public land isn't sustainable long-term. If only a few people value the resource, it can be taken away by management changes. That almost happened here decades ago. Now the level of investment is too high.

That's my perspective, based on a multi use trail network on a patchwork of public and private land, surrounded by a landscape of USFS lands with additional trails.


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

As a member of 3 MTB clubs, one of which is mentioned here, I read this thread with interest. 
Rather than lurk, I'm about to don my flame retardent suit, and jump into the fire.

Have built a # of trails, and done much trail work following AMC guidelines. As a biker, I notice IMBA using different strategies to gain the same end result. One pervasive problem I encounter is the attitude of our way, or no way, when in fact IMBA's methods are relatively new, and do not always address the best needs of multi-use trails (MUT). 

Complications arise when trailwork done by MTB-ers does not address the needs of hikers, trail runners, dog walkers, or grandma out for a stroll. Yes we may be the one's doing the work, yet we cannot ignore the needs of other trail users. As much as one's ego may not like an alternate (B) line, and refer to it as dumbing down the trail, they are a requisite for any MUT. 
Log piles, and 2' drops do not make sense for grandpa, or a woman pushing a baby stroller. 

This exact situation has caused frustration with my local club, as most members do not want to hear it, and feel they have the right to build features without B-lines. Due to this very situation elsewhere, we lost trail access on private land, which took 1.5 years for bikers to regain that landowners trust. Despite providing this insight, my local club continues to build/maintain MUT trails as if they were pure MTB trails, without B-lines. For this reason, I opt out of work days, and instead regularly clip branches, briars, and cut felled trees with hand tools. Although by the above definition this does not count towards maintaining the trails, many people stop to talk & thank me. 

On MTB specific trails the situation differs, and more difficult features can be employed without B-lines. However, make it too difficult, and they will ALWAYS develop. You can create the line, not dictate it. Ever. So rather than wait for erosive braiding to occur, just build an B-line.
While I'm wearing the suit, I'll touch on stacked-loop trail systems that lack service road access. It's questionable to build the black trails and features furthest from the parking lot, where riders are more likely to get hurt. To build them without clear plans for extracation is asinine.

Realize that my input may not be well received, yet remember all feedback holds value. 
Fire away..


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

No flame suit needed here, but I'm curious if you think IMBA does not endorse the use of alternate lines? That's definitely not the case. We also emphasize that different trail building techniques are required in different locales, and that local trail users/builders should always be integral to the design/build process. 

As far as extracting riders from advanced trails, all trail designs are vetted with the land manager who is responsible for rescue/evacuation.


----------



## indytrekracer (Feb 13, 2004)

I support trails in local parks, county parks, State Parks, State Forests, and National Forests. I also work with the local riding communities that range from lots of riders with few opportunities (urban areas) to area with huge opportunities but a small rider base.

I typically don't believe that complex issues have simple black and white answers. 

Should trails be built with public funds (like soccer fields and swimming pools), should it be pay to play (money), should it be dig to play? The answer is likely to depend largely on the local dynamics and end up being some combination of all three.

Taking this back to flow vs gnar. The correct answer isn't one or the other, its both and lots of trails in between. 

My biggest pet peeve is riders who have a very limited view what a good trail is and get upset if every trail built isn't a carbon copy of their favorite trail. 

We need to have a diverse system of trails available to attract more riders thus gaining political support for access on public lands, we need to build a wide range of intermediate trails to keep those riders engaged as they advance, and we need some hard trails to challenged those who want to be challenged. But keep in mind that there are so many variations of trail style (flow) with in the different difficulty ratings that we can build large trail systems yet have each trail have it's own unique feel.

In the end, we are best as a group if riders embrace the wide range of trail styles and if as trail builders we provide that wide range of trail experiences.


----------



## indytrekracer (Feb 13, 2004)

Flyin_W, 

again the answer is not black and white. 

I maintain a 7.5 mile urban trail where we have B options. With only one loop and hundreds of riders per day, we need to provide access to the masses and challenges to the more advanced.

I am also involved in a State Park where we have 28 miles of trail, beginner to extremely difficult. Our extremely difficult trail does not have options. It has qualifiers that keep beginners off and we have plenty of trails for them to ride so they don't feel the need to ride around or change the trail. and riding around isn't practical due to the steepness of the side slope.

I do agree with you that the real test for a trail builder is whether or not they build/maintain a trail per the agreements with land managers. If the land manager wants accessible trails and allow b options and trail builders build trails with out a options, then they are not doing a good job as trail stewards.


----------



## TiRyder (Mar 8, 2005)

Cotharyus said:


> I suggested something like a $10 day pass for visitors, and was told it wasn't worth the hassle.............I'm simply using this as an example of something that could be handled better. If (when?) I move back to that area, I have zero issues paying SVBC dues, and I expect they'll get much, much more than 8 hours per year of work out of me, so the pass becomes a non-issue. It's only as a visitor I take issue with the cost of the pass.


Yes, this is the main item we are changing in what we are trying to do, is to offer a 50.00 annual pass, or a 5.00 day pass. I did the annual as I am about 1.5 hours away and can make the trip, but, IMO, there should always be an option for a day pass.

We have shops in town willing to sell the passes, without deducting any fees as it drives business to their stores, but also want to do online print passes, as well as 5.00 in envelope at parking lot on honor system. Even if not everyone is honorable, the fees obtained should certainly justify cost of secure and lockable box on site, similar to some national and state park locations.


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

Mark E said:


> No flame suit needed here, but I'm curious if you think IMBA does not endorse the use of alternate lines? That's definitely not the case. We also emphasize that different trail building techniques are required in different locales, and that local trail users/builders should always be integral to the design/build process.
> 
> As far as extracting riders from advanced trails, all trail designs are vetted with the land manager who is responsible for rescue/evacuation.


Appreciate the civil reply. Haven't questioned IMBA's stance, nor will post names on a public forum, yet both the club, and the trail design I mentioned are IMBA affiliated. Sometimes guidelines and final execution do not reflect each another.

Have also learned that nothing is black or white, terrain dictates design, and that even sought after sound advice can easily be outvoted.


----------



## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

indytrekracer said:


> My biggest pet peeve is riders who have a very limited view what a good trail is and get upset if every trail built isn't a carbon copy of their favorite trail.


Amen to that. I see a lot of that locally.

Thankfully, I think they are


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Flyin_W said:


> As a member of 3 MTB clubs, one of which is mentioned here, I read this thread with interest.
> Rather than lurk, I'm about to don my flame retardent suit, and jump into the fire.
> 
> Have built a # of trails, and done much trail work following AMC guidelines. As a biker, I notice IMBA using different strategies to gain the same end result. One pervasive problem I encounter is the attitude of our way, or no way, when in fact IMBA's methods are relatively new, and do not always address the best needs of multi-use trails (MUT).
> ...


I think MUT systems lead to user conflict unless the faster mtb trails are kept separate from the main hiking routes. I would not propose building an advanced MTB trail as a multi use or even multi directional option. Sharing climbs with hikers in either direction seems to work. Other then that you will eventually scare the pants off grandma.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

TiRyder said:


> Yes, this is the main item we are changing in what we are trying to do, is to offer a 50.00 annual pass, or a 5.00 day pass. I did the annual as I am about 1.5 hours away and can make the trip, but, IMO, there should always be an option for a day pass.
> 
> We have shops in town willing to sell the passes, without deducting any fees as it drives business to their stores, but also want to do online print passes, as well as 5.00 in envelope at parking lot on honor system. Even if not everyone is honorable, the fees obtained should certainly justify cost of secure and lockable box on site, similar to some national and state park locations.


That's great news. And I mean that sincerely. It's something I've been bugging three people up there about for ....years.

As far as user conflict on MUTs, if there are complaints about the way mountain bikers act on them, then the mountain bikers need to learn etiquette. As far as A lines and B lines, always on MUTs. One MTB trails, I build A lines that correspond with the trail's difficulty levels. B lines on easy trails are often more technical, to provide extra entertainment for more advanced riders that are riding easier trails for more milage, or in my case, riding with my son, who likes seeing me ride more technical things than he's comfortable with, and eventually steps up and tries these things himself. On advanced trails, my B lines usually take it from something like a semi-technical crossing of a gully, to a place where you do a 2-3' drop into the gully then come down it a ways, and ride out the A line.

As far as flow or gnar, both have their places. Everything in between has it's place too. I drive to different trails because I want to ride different trails. I don't really want everything the same.


----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

another perspective on this is, not to waste the volunteers time. 
I show up for a 2 hour shift to help work on a local trail. the operator has me move a pile of dirt from point a to point b. the boss comes over, tells the operator, that the operator shouldn't have moved the dirt from point a to point b. so i moved the dirt from point b back to point a, my shift was over after that. 

I doubt i will volunteer my time on organized work days anymore. I will just go back to clearing trails with my saw on my time, i did not enjoy taking time off of work to help out and than basically get nothing accomplished. If you have volunteers, make sure you don't waste their time. 

Here in idaho, the forest is big, you won't see everyone working on trails, there is just to much land in between, so just because you don't see people working, doesn't mean people are not working. A lot of people out here, just go do it and don't advertise it. 

private parties do most of the trail clearing out here, not clubs, or the land managers, but people who use the trails. One reason for this is the forest service just does not clear trails anymore. I guess it is not in there budget's anymore and they have learned the backcountry horseman, the motorcycles and the mountain bikers will get it done.


----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

another thing to think about, is how do you utilize you volunteers. Some people are good with saws, some with operating machinery, some with utilizing shovels and rakes, and some can't do any of that but can do other things, like fund raising, organizing, logistics.
There are a lot of people out there that have don't have alot of free time but can help from there office making phone calls, etc. There is more to the total picture of a trail network, than just the trail. yes the trail is the most important, but there are other aspects. Business's can donate money or swag, find the local mountain biker who owns his\her own business, you would be suprised at how much they will help with money and swag and phone calls.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^You bring up a good point tim208. Utilizing volunteers takes a huge amount of work and you have to have what we call a "heavy lifting project" to make it worthwhile. As a club, our volunteers can either join with our YCC "heavy lifting" crews, or do trail maintenance on their own. We encourage our club riders to carry a small pruning tool and do one small pruning or tread maintenance task per ride. Individuals also keep most of the blowdowns cleared on their own. We are currently also working (with good success) on embedding direct trail maintenance funding in the County and City budgets so that a reliable source of maintenance funding is established for the future to keep this ball rolling.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

So, VT Dave seems like you have 2 kinds of trail users. Your tourists/ day visitors and local mt. bikers. Seems like the visitors could be a day pass/ day use fee. So, the question is how to engage the local rider population in trail work ? I'm a NS Nemba member here and will try to answer from my perspective. We have lots of members who just send in their dues. We never see or hear from them. We use the money for supplies for trail work, good. Some we hear from once in a while. Occasionally we have people who will show up for an event or trail day. Those are the ones we try to get to show up for more events/ trail days. We have core group of say 30 trail workers and maybe 10-15 more who do the bulk of the trail days. We usually have 6-8 work days for the year, mostly spring and fall. Spread out over different riding areas. Do other trails organizers mix up Saturdays and Sundays? How do your trails days plan out? We usually have 4 hours of work, followed by a provided lunch and then a ride. Others way you try to engage riders?


----------



## iceboxsteve (Feb 22, 2012)

I've followed this and every other thread on here that is essentially the same thing.

"We don't get any help on our work yet people complain."

And I totally agree, don't complain about what you have no part in. But, all I see here are people throwing ideas into the air on how to get more help for their projects. My question is what about the one who really does want to help; who wants to give their blood, sweat, and tears, yet is continually dismissed?

I'm going through this with my clubs and with my job, its the exact same issue. I'm a young guy, I'd guess a generation earlier than most of you. So your generations really took MTB from rogue to mainstream and now I have clubs I can join and be a part of. But, like any organization, people get power hungry. Whether they like to admit it or not. Whether its a little or a lot. People enjoy their role and feel threatened by outsiders. So here I am young and full of energy and my ideas and work ethic is shot down.

One could argue I don't know this or that, have to be taught, shown the way. Generally this is just the gate keeper act. I'm switching jobs because I'm not challenged, acknowledged, or given independence and trust. And I've really debated rejoining clubs for the same issues.

I came from classic a New England rouge riding background. Which, despite NEMBA's attempts, is still quite rogue. I see both sides. As a small town core group of people who just keep to themselves and want to ride locally, I see it. And as a group advocating for larger ideals and ensured access, I see it.

I'm rambling a bit, and not tackling the original intent of this post. However, its a big issue I've had lately and needed to let it out. As someone said to me "its really sad there is a young person who wants to learn so much, do so much, has such fire and passion and ideas, and is stuffed in the corner continually."


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

So, iceboxsteve, your ideas are shot down? Details please. Usually for our trail work, trail plans are hashed out with the land manager first. Either a request from them for a new trail, reroute or trail fix. Sometimes we come up with a plan and proceed. Often it needs to pass conservation issues or wetlands. Then flagged and walked. Then reviewed. Then a trail work day planned and supplies( like lumber) bought. At that point we organize our work day/ volunteers and do what is needed. Dirt/rock/ boardwalk work. Rogue? Not really following you there.


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

The scenario described by iceboxsteve is, as I've learned in my 10 years at IMBA, fairly common. It's understandable in many ways -- a crew of committed trail builders emerges in an organization. They create some great trails and are rightfully praised for their efforts. They get even more skilled and take on bigger projects, but they also begin the get a little set in their ways. Subtly or overtly, they begin to send out the signal that they are the elite trail builders in the org (which they are) and outsiders may not be welcome, even if they are members of the group. 

In some cases, the entire organization takes on an attitude that we sometimes call the "trail building cult" where the club/chapter is entirely driven by trail projects. Other aspects of running a successful org -- like growing and diversifying the membership -- are viewed as low-priority, even as unwelcome distractions from trail projects. 

It's true that a young, enthusiastic volunteer can be more of a hinderance than an asset until he's assimilated into a team. But it's obviously problematic when the effect is that new energy and new ways of doing things are dismissed. In the worst cases, the elite trail building corps seldom ventures outside of the home area and closes their minds to trail styles that vary from what they have gotten comfortable with riding/building. 

IMBA has long offered advice on how to avoid the trail cult phenomena, the value of bringing on new builders and new members, and other related topics. But things that are easy to say are often hard to do. I know I've been at trail work events where the volunteers were a herd of cats and its hard not to think the best thing to do would be to give everyone some busy work that accomplishes little so the experienced builders (not a group I count myself in) can get on with it. 

It's not an easy balance to strike.


----------



## iceboxsteve (Feb 22, 2012)

Leeboh;

Rogue: as in illegal. Though not always. Locals only mentality. I grew up where we built trails but they were unadvertised and it was not welcome to see others who stumbled upon them. We often did what we want, though illegal may be a bit skewed as many were in fact built with permission. Informal may be a good term.

Also, as a professional engineer, I totally grasp land managers, wetlands, priority species, local departments, erosion/sediment control, and more. Actually, I would think because I deal with this every single day I'd be a pretty darn good asset to a club.

Mark E; I agree. With almost any organization you can see a "cult" mentality form. And beyond trail building, I want to learn every part of advocacy. I want to go to public meetings (which I can/do). I want to go to meetings with land managers. I want to organize. Promote. Write grants. Develop programs. And much more than build trail.

To both of you;

Common scenarios goes "hey why don't we look into this" or "hey I found this guy we could talk to" or "hey I want to organize this", though usually I have much more detail than that (hell for fun I spend free time pouring over GIS information/public meeting notes/researching other areas). And the reaction is less than excited. I understand how volunteer work gets done. I know I have to take ownership and really go after this stuff on my own. But I joined a group because well there are benefits correct? Like wisdom people have gained from doing this for 20 years. Like the added benefit of representing a known and appreciated club. And yet I don't really see this happening. I'd be better off going before town officials on my own, sans club, or building rogue (i.e. exactly what a club doesn't want).

I understand there are multiple sides to every story. And I understand as being fairly fresh I still have a lot to learn. My only point is I see a lot of "old boys club" stuff going on. And frankly if you won't use me why would I continue to fight for your effort? 

I'm not ballooned up on my own ego, I know I can do better, have my own faults, etc. I'm simply bringing something to light which I think is important, and I would hope clubs see it that way too, since the majority of my club will likely (and sadly) be unable to ride in 20 years when they're 70 or 80, but I'll be in my 40s and would have hopefully been groomed to take on the mission.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

leeboh said:


> So, VT Dave seems like you have 2 kinds of trail users. Your tourists/ day visitors and local mt. bikers. Seems like the visitors could be a day pass/ day use fee. So, the question is how to engage the local rider population in trail work ? I'm a NS Nemba member here and will try to answer from my perspective. We have lots of members who just send in their dues. We never see or hear from them. We use the money for supplies for trail work, good. Some we hear from once in a while. Occasionally we have people who will show up for an event or trail day. Those are the ones we try to get to show up for more events/ trail days. We have core group of say 30 trail workers and maybe 10-15 more who do the bulk of the trail days. We usually have 6-8 work days for the year, mostly spring and fall. Spread out over different riding areas. Do other trails organizers mix up Saturdays and Sundays? How do your trails days plan out? We usually have 4 hours of work, followed by a provided lunch and then a ride. Others way you try to engage riders?


I've been a professional trail builder. Outside of my own town, I have no Idea how the "legitimate" MTB organizers engage the locals, other then saying "not very well."

Lots of people are "too busy", "don't get to ride enough", Blah blah blah. 
Lot's of people and local shops want to have events on trail networks they have had zero involvement in. Lots of groups form VMBA chapters because the grant money has been flowing but you have to have a local chapter to receive any....but that means VMBA wants to map and advertise your trails are as part of the product that is VTMTBing.

Lots of people write articles about the boom of VT MTBing and want all of New England to come ride here, like the latest piece from this author of this article....and don't do any meaningful work. Sure they formed a chapter. Sure they'll get their grant money, then hire someone else to build their trails. Likely fall short on the volunteer hours match...not sure how they account for that in the deliverables report at the end of the year...not sure if the federal transportation grants were made aware of the shortcomings or if they just say they were in compliance at the end, then have their auditor sign off...if so that's fraud according to my CPA wife. Don't really care anymore. Just tired of the hype machine, lack of labor, degrading trails, and arm chair trail builders input on the work we are doing for them to exploit.

Locally, I motivate the riders to help in the last coupla years by badgering, public shaming, and border-line harassment. Fortunately Northfield is off the radar, most people find our climbing is too stout, and half the trails are too technical. The local guys who do turn up when badgered are getting it in terms of the Virtues of contribution Vs. Exploitation. Still many from Montpelier ( closest population base) ride here regularly and never inquire about how to help. They just hear there's trail and ride ride ride. We also have some large private land owners who's properties are adjacent to one another and don't need advocacy to continue to grow our network for at least the next couple years. Locally, we are growing our scene like 95% of trail networks in Vt were created. We haven't really tried to attract the hoards of users. Onion River Sports had on half-assed enduro here but they put in so little time in planning it was sort of lame and we haven't seen anyone else trying to cash in on our work...so we just keep building for ourselves, and people can come ride if they want, but it'd be nice if they ride here to work here too. I even added some B lines on the ridge trail for some locals who were not enjoying themselves... organic, local, sustainable use and growth without VMBA, IMBA, news letters, grants. Entities within the community have spent money on trail development, but we are not lined up with our hands out looking for more. Our hands are in the dirt, a far more productive place for them to be.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Ah, the oldboys elitest clubs. Yes, it an be challenging when some "young energetic pup" shows up who is very enthusiastic, but maybe not entirely up on "how things are done" within an organization. It's a struggle, and it's real. I recently had a "new" guy show up. He's had some experience working back home (PNW) and wants to help with some jump lines and stuff in this area. That's fine, except he didn't understand when I asked him to hold off, even though I have a location that's basically ready, and permission to build there and everything. And I hate to feel like I'm crushing someone's ambitions when their intention is good.

On his second ride in this area, he figured out why I asked him to hold of - his words, not mine - "Wow the dirt here really is different." If I'd let him just start doing his thing, I could walk through a model layout of what he had in mind, and point out what problems would have developed where. Instead, I ask new people, whether they are from this area or not, to come to a couple of workdays. Sometimes I have a group I'm completely familiar with show up, and I can set them about doing whatever needs to be done, and tackle a side project or smaller part of what the whole group is working on with the new guy, see what he knows, or show him what he needs to know if he admits he's new at this. Sometimes, I have to "pawn the new guy off" on someone else I trust, because I have a group show up I need to manage more. Either way, I try not to exclude new blood.

The biggest problem that tends to take place with new people though, is they are full tilt about "putting in trail at this new place" or "building some jumps on that trail" and the problems with those ideas are "Our schedule is full right now, and we don't have time for a new project. Why don't you (and any friends you have that would help with that project you want to do) come help with what we already have approval for and have started, then when we get some of this out of the way, we can start on that, the right way, under the umbrella of the club." To which I often get something to the effect of "I don't want want to help with those trails though, they aren't what I want to build." I can't help you with that, I've told you what the present situation is. As for "building some jumps on that trail" - most often it's suggested at a park where all trails are multi-use, and there's no room for a B-line and sight lines that safely allow jumping where people may be walking near the other end of things. But, I'm just a wet blanket, and won't let people have any fun.

So I can see both sides of it. Sometimes enthusiasm is misplaced. Sometimes, builders really are elitest and don't want a new guy. As someone who has been a new guy (hint: everyone here was a new guy, once. At least) the best way in is to temper your enthusiasm, and just show up to what the old boys are doing, and help them do it.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Friend or Flow: Are trails being too ?dumbed down??

Just read the article.....as expected it says nothing new and is just a rehashing of real conversations so someone can get paid. Wonder if she'll donate her compensation to the local club. It reads like an advertisement for the Mad River Valley.

They quote Atkinson at length as some type of expert....and so here is the problem....

Jon Atkinson fails to grasp even the most basic concepts of trail construction. I've worked on "His" projects.

At Blueberry Lake he failed completely is his volunteer requirements. On one Sunday he was supposed to show up with 30 ppl for a full day. The paid guy showed up on his day off, Atkinson didn't show for 2 hours, then showed up with 2 ppl. They began the work outlined by the boss, but Atkinson wandered off to do his own, misguided thing. When he was told to get back on task, he called the boss and complained the paid guy had a bad attitude. I wonder why the trail builder might have had a bad attitude at that point??? At the end of the project, he blamed the trail builder for his inability to make good on his volunteer match.

Then this past year I got to see him at work. He started his version of Benching with a rogue hoe. The boss tried to take him aside to instruct him and not embarrass him in front of us, but he was untrainable. The Boss couldn't even get through a sentence before Jon would interrupt with why he was doing it his way. Another morning we spent an hour or more walking the cleared trail corridor placing pin flags to mark exactly where we wanted the center of tread before starting work. Jon came by to inspect our progress, as he like to do, almost never picked up a tool, went down trail for a while, then came back with a handful of pin flags. "You guys don't need these anymore..."

Tongue-bitten.

He would run volunteer days by himself on that project and we would show up at work on Monday dismayed. Carnage was a word use. Unreal was another.

On the Revolution trail he placed a 100+ pound stone as cribbing on the outside of a switch back so tenuously, that I put a foot on it to check the work and it moved easily, I could have pushed it down the hill with 2 fingers. Hard to make a stone that big roll so easily.

I don't say these things to hurt Jon's feeling, though I'm sure they will be hurt. I quit my Building job 2 weeks ago because he complained to VMBA about my point of view and indicated my boss's company might not get the work coming from his Chapter because of it. I'm not going to let that guy's hurt feelings have any bearing on my professional life.

Also, the characterization of existing trails in the Valley as Black and Double Black diamond in difficulty goes beyond a stretch. It is a ton of intermediate riding with steep hills, and a moment or two of Expert level stuff.

I did the work on the "De-railer" rock in Waterbury that she references, and if that's not my quote about "if you idiots could ride it, we wouldn't have to fix it." Then I wish it was. This seems a bit harsh but realize the people complaining admit to doing no work, and one of them called the club president and was so angry, the president resigned because he felt his personal safety was at risk.

This is the reality. Everything happening in Vt is with in this context.

Self appointed experts bringing change without improvement. Egos. 
Be funny if it didn't make me sad.


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

DaveVt, keep in mind nobody is getting rich writing advocacy articles for Dirt Rag. The author probably didn't earn enough dough from story to buy a new derailleur if she hung it up on "De-railer." Well, not good one anyway. 

As far as "If you ride you must dig" everyone has to find the right balance of work, volunteerism and ride time. Some folks would rather write a check than pick up a shovel -- seems reasonable to me. Others ride and build. Still others just ride and don't feel compelled to contribute anything. Hopefully they'll see the light at some point ... but probably not by being browbeaten into it. 

At the end of the day, if a trail is on public land and open to bicycling than anyone and everyone has a perfectly legitimate right to ride it. It's not the builder's trail, it's the public's trail, right? 

We all share in these public resources, which is great because I'd hate to have to spend a week volunteering at each trail system I visit before a local granted me permission to spend a week riding there.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Mark E said:


> DaveVt, keep in mind nobody is getting rich writing advocacy articles for Dirt Rag. The author probably didn't earn enough dough from story to buy a new derailleur if she hung it up on "De-railer." Well, not good one anyway.
> 
> As far as "If you ride you must dig" everyone has to find the right balance of work, volunteerism and ride time. Some folks would rather write a check than pick up a shovel -- seems reasonable to me. Others ride and build. Still others just ride and don't feel compelled to contribute anything. Hopefully they'll see the light at some point ... but probably not by being browbeaten into it.
> 
> ...


But she is profiting from it. Didn't create anything. Just amplified the controversy and got a check. I didn't ever say you had to work on a specific trail before you ride it, I said that every avid rider need to be an avid trail worker also, preferably on their local trails. It is public land, but it requires work to exist. If you are not putting is physical time helping with that work, you don't really understand what you are talking about and, sure, write an article, but understand that it is written from a perspective of ignorance of the bigger picture, and doesn't do anything to solve the real issues at hand, which have nothing to do with what kind of trail "we" the paid crews, should build, and have everything to do with users, people with an financial angle, taking from a resource they don't put in to....and if dues are going to mean anything, then the 23 dollars from your VMBA membership that go towards trail work are grossly inadequate. That's 15 minutes of work, times how many VMBA members state wide? 1000? So all VMBA membership funds pay for 250 hours of labor, or 2 weeks work for 1 crew. Hardly sustainable. We need to have a meeting to discuss this......Ha. No, we need people to show up and work, not write about it.


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Didn't create anything? The author created the story which is illuminating the issues that you care passionately about. The same ones you're writing about now, but probably not reaching many more people than you, me and Cotharyus. 

People in VT and all over have ridden trails and will continue to ride trails whether you build them or not. The financial structure that you're concerned with seems to be succeeding in getting more and more trails built so it can't be totally broken. Does it work just the way you think it should? Maybe not ... but projects keep going forward anyway. 

As I've said before, I don't doubt that riding in VT is better for your passion for building, but not everyone is going to follow the path you've chosen.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Mark E said:


> Didn't create anything? The author created the story which is illuminating the issues that you care passionately about. The same ones you're writing about now, but probably not reaching many more people than you, me and Cotharyus.
> 
> People in VT and all over have ridden trails and will continue to ride trails whether you build them or not. The financial structure that you're concerned with seems to be succeeding in getting more and more trails built so it can't be totally broken. Does it work just the way you think it should? Maybe not ... but projects keep going forward anyway.
> 
> As I've said before, I don't doubt that riding in VT is better for your passion for building, but not everyone is going to follow the path you've chosen.


This conversation already happened. She just took it of my FB page and amplified it and got paid. Didn't create anything. Only reason I comment is because she cherry picked the conversation and quoted me without asking, and only chose my most inflammatory statements. Maybe not a fox news version, but certainly heavily one sided from a more reasonable perspective. Fluff for money.

You'd have to live in a hole on the ground to think that anything in that article is original thought. It's just a platform for VMBA to extol it's accomplishments, and some individuals who think they are experts to ring their own bell, "balanced" with quotes without sources taken out of context to make them seem more provocative then they really are.


----------



## ridingthebuff (Jul 9, 2009)

This is some amusing **it, keep it up we're waiting for more!


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Back to getting more riders into building. Here in MA, we have lots of organized rides, local evening and weekend rides as well larger organized rides. The larger rides are usually hosted by the local Nemba chapter and have led rides for different abilities, arrowed routes, support from local bikes shops for repairs and demo rides. Food too. For me, showing riders some new areas with great trails can lead to more shovels on the ground. Paid trail workers? Not so much in my area. It is the chapters digging dirt and putting in boardwalks. Lots of crossover between the local chapters as well, esp. for bigger projects. I kind of thought that how it is done everywhere? I guess not. Meeting the riders out on the trails leads to some productive conversations. How do other trail builders in other parts of the US do it?


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Funny how? I mean, funny like I'm a clown? I amuse you? I make you laugh? I'm here to ****in' amuse you? How da **** am I funny? What da **** is so funny about me? Tell me. Tell me what's funny?"


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

ridingthebuff said:


> This is some amusing **it, keep it up we're waiting for more!


Mark, let me try...
So from davevt's comments it would appear that Sarah is an experienced fluffer trying out her professional skills in a new industry.

...sent by dixie cup/string


----------



## ridingthebuff (Jul 9, 2009)

This






JerseyDave has bodies under all of the buses wheels this time. That guy from PA must be looking both ways.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> Paid trail workers?


Wait, what? 
People get PAID to build trails?

Sounds like crazy talk.

:skep:


----------



## VT-rider (Mar 7, 2015)

Dave, this is the Trail Building AND Advocacy forum. You can't have one without the other.

Harassing local volunteers is not how we do things in VT.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

VT-rider said:


> Dave, this is the Trail Building AND Advocacy forum. You can't have one without the other.
> 
> Harassing local volunteers is not how we do things in VT.


What do you mean, most advocates do no trail work. On the flip side I actually do advocate for access and sustainability. In my town I've sat through many a conservation commission meeting trying the help them figure out the town forest management plan. I talk with private land owners neighbor to neighbor about access and it works. What makes people nervous in my blue collar town is someone from a Non-profit, or state-wide special interest coming in to tell them how they are gonna do this or that.

VMBA is a last resort here. Hope we never need a club. 
First post for you. You know me, do I know you?

"Exploit a resource your neighbors have built over the years for it's potential tourist revenue despite the unsustainable nature of that resource, then hold out our hands for government grant money so predominantly well-off, uninvolved users can ride their 5000 dollar bikes around in buffed-out circles through the woods." 
^Is that how we do it in Vt? Lots of folks need heating assistance. Food Assistance. Health care assistance. Instead, the Mountain Bikers sponge up tax dollars because lazy entitled people, visitors or residents, can't give up one or two rides a month and do some meaningful work.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Wait, what?
> People get PAID to build trails?
> 
> Sounds like crazy talk.
> ...


I know, it's crazy, right? Although, there are different levels of getting paid to build trail. For instance, I get paid to build trail. But then I know guys who get PAID to build trail. See? I get paid, and I can buy my fuel. Those guys get paid and they can buy a new sweco. Man, I need a sweco...


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> Wait, what?
> People get PAID to build trails?
> 
> Sounds like crazy talk.
> ...


People get paid to build trail in Vt because the new version of Vermont MTBer wants to pay and do no trail work. The vast majority of trail in Vermont was not built by paid labor. The situation described down your neck of the woods sounds way more functional. Riders do the work. Riders appreciate the trails. Riders respect the trails. Also worth noting that my boss paid us with his own money many times. What people want/vs what they want to pay per foot does not add up, particularly when the labor matches never materialize. Not as lucrative as it may sound considering you pretty much forfeit you actual riding to be a paid builder. No one is getting rich being a trails contractor in Vermont.


----------



## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

DaveVt said:


> What do you mean, most advocates do no trail work.


You have a very narrow view of a community in the Northeast.

We are in California and have a core of about 30 members who attend monthly trail committee meetings - USFS, State Parks, County Parks, City Parks AND are the crew leaders and weekly workers who drive the organization.

On work days, we draw anywhere from 20 - 250 volunteers and over 50% of our volunteers do 3 or more work days of our 9-10 each year.

We blew away the IMBA Trail Care Crew when they were here in November.
https://www.imba.com/blog/tcc-jordan-and-lani/community-key-successful-trail-slo

_"We readied ourselves for what was quickly becoming our largest trailbuilding school audience ever, and nerves were high as Lani and I discussed certain topics and how to present them to the diverse audience. A room filled with more than 150 hikers, equestrians, mountain bikers, and community members eagerly waited to learn about how IMBA could help them develop new trails with all their needs in mind."_

Advocates do trail work here. What a world of difference in out mountain bike world. Being halfway between LA and SF, we have thousands of visitors riding year round.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

slocaus said:


> You have a very narrow view of a community in the Northeast.
> 
> We are in California and have a core of about 30 members who attend monthly trail committee meetings - USFS, State Parks, County Parks, City Parks AND are the crew leaders and weekly workers who drive the organization.
> 
> ...


100% true. My only experience is here. I hear rumors of massive volunteer efforts and am quite jealous of that level of engagement. I think about what we could do with the money we are currently spending on very straight forward work that should be done by volunteer efforts.


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Perhaps you need a more diplomatic appeal to attract those big volunteer turnouts--berating people about how much their bikes cost and how lame they are at trail work might not be getting the job done.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

So, Vt Dave, groups of riders form VMBA chapters and hire out the trail work? Seems odd, from where I'm coming from. Ever try to engage the hiking community? AMC? What about groups from say Americore or other post high school yearly service organizations. Here in MA, high school students need community service projects. For organized races, like say the VT 50, is there a trail work commitment from the riders or the leadership? What about support from the bike shops and their scheduled rides? We get some work days/materials from groups like REI and local conservation/hiking groups. Lumber donations?


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Good point MarkE, having an attitude about a group of people is counter productive. YOU have to figure out how to use what you HAVE, not what you wish you had. Curmudgeons get no effort because they kill the energy flow, you have to figure out how to accelerate the flow of energy for your project. If you are not cognizant of that it is pretty hard to get folks to follow. Train yourself to project loving optimistic energy, for starters. Works like magic.


----------



## pinkrobe (Jan 30, 2004)

Mark E said:


> Perhaps you need a more diplomatic appeal to attract those big volunteer turnouts--berating people about how much their bikes cost and how lame they are at trail work might not be getting the job done.


This. It's important to remember that volunteers are NOT employees. Use vinegar instead of honey and they'll walk away and tell everyone they know not to participate in trail days.


----------



## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

Here's a short, cool video that highlights trail volunteerism in Virginia:


----------



## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

The truth has to be told. It gets a bit thin waiting years for the MTB community to drop the entitlement attitude and actually do some trail work. I understand his grumpiness and I think he is dead on the money when he says the MTB community could manage and maintain all trails without help if it chose to get off its collective backside and work a bit. If the responsibility of meeting your volunteer hours, financial and legal part of the deal is not enough to do the trick, I see little reason for massaging honey in on this forum.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Diplomacy is for people with hidden agendas.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

leeboh said:


> So, Vt Dave, groups of riders form VMBA chapters and hire out the trail work? Seems odd, from where I'm coming from. Ever try to engage the hiking community? AMC? What about groups from say Americore or other post high school yearly service organizations. Here in MA, high school students need community service projects. For organized races, like say the VT 50, is there a trail work commitment from the riders or the leadership? What about support from the bike shops and their scheduled rides? We get some work days/materials from groups like REI and local conservation/hiking groups. Lumber donations?


I dig mostly. In my town our scene functions well. Vermont outdoor activities is drunk on capitalism and resume bullets. Thank god there's fly fishing and jiu jitsu....way to hard to ever be sold out.


----------



## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

DaveVt said:


> Diplomacy is for people with hidden agendas.


Like getting more trail volunteers, at least it works for us.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

slocaus said:


> Like getting more trail volunteers, at least it works for us.


probably right.


----------



## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Yikes... took a turn for the worse.

I find we get a ton of cross pollination with other NEMBA chapters and our local CT trail schools always pull about 15-30 people. We had a trail fest complete with camping last spring and it was a blast, folks from RI and MA came down to help us build a new trail in SW CT. We'll be taking some of our bosses and our tool trailer and heading to NW CT to help them out.

We don't get the numbers like Slocus, but I don't think we have the same base to pull from either... so many people in the northeast so densely packed and not all of them are interested in the outdoors, or we have so many more places locally to ride and enjoy the outdoors its tough to pull people away to work elsewhere.

I'm hoping to get the Kingdom Trails big building school in VT. Should be a blast and will no doubt pull dozens of folks from around new england to help improve VT riding.

There will always be local issues, but we're all in the same game:
-better access and good land manager relationships
-sustainable trail that doesn't need constant work or highlight user impacts (i.e. mitigates our impact as hikers, bikers, etc on the land)


----------



## -Mueller- (Jan 15, 2012)

DaveVt said:


> What people want/vs what they want to pay per foot does not add up, particularly when the labor matches never materialize.


I don't completely agree with everything DaveVt is saying, but I agree with this. As a trail contractor, we are used to getting flamed about every project. You can't please everyone...and we're okay with that.

But if you want hand-built style, rock-strewn, narrow, beautiful trail oozing with character...you gotta pay to play. Don't blame pro trailbuilders for homogenized trail when nobody wants to pay what it actually costs to build. And don't scoff at the price and say volunteers can do it when turnouts are low and the unskilled far outnumber the guys/gals that can produce work that my company can be proud of.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

-Mueller- said:


> I don't completely agree with everything DaveVt is saying, but I agree with this. As a trail contractor, we are used to getting flamed about every project. You can't please everyone...and we're okay with that.
> 
> But if you want hand-built style, rock-strewn, narrow, beautiful trail oozing with character...you gotta pay to play. Don't blame pro trailbuilders for homogenized trail when nobody wants to pay what it actually costs to build. And don't scoff at the price and say volunteers can do it when turnouts are low and the unskilled far outnumber the guys/gals that can produce work that my company can be proud of.


^This is everything.


----------



## Jonus Wilder (Mar 10, 2015)

I feel EXACTLY the same way! We just build what we like to build and if anyone complains it's "Nut up or shut up."


----------



## Jonus Wilder (Mar 10, 2015)

Cotharyus said:


> Ah, the oldboys elitest clubs. Yes, it an be challenging when some "young energetic pup" shows up who is very enthusiastic, but maybe not entirely up on "how things are done" within an organization. It's a struggle, and it's real. I recently had a "new" guy show up. He's had some experience working back home (PNW) and wants to help with some jump lines and stuff in this area. That's fine, except he didn't understand when I asked him to hold off, even though I have a location that's basically ready, and permission to build there and everything. And I hate to feel like I'm crushing someone's ambitions when their intention is good.
> 
> On his second ride in this area, he figured out why I asked him to hold of - his words, not mine - "Wow the dirt here really is different." If I'd let him just start doing his thing, I could walk through a model layout of what he had in mind, and point out what problems would have developed where. Instead, I ask new people, whether they are from this area or not, to come to a couple of workdays. Sometimes I have a group I'm completely familiar with show up, and I can set them about doing whatever needs to be done, and tackle a side project or smaller part of what the whole group is working on with the new guy, see what he knows, or show him what he needs to know if he admits he's new at this. Sometimes, I have to "pawn the new guy off" on someone else I trust, because I have a group show up I need to manage more. Either way, I try not to exclude new blood.
> 
> ...


Yea...You just said everything I've been thinking for the last 10 years. You hate to crush someones enthusiasm but at the same time, we all can't "build jumps". There are drains and regular maintenance that needs to be addressed.

DaveVT, dude. You are so burned out and cynical. I feel for ya.


----------



## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

An Australian take on the topic here...


----------



## BonkedAgain (Aug 23, 2005)

crank1979 said:


> An Australian take on the topic here...


Quote of the day: "When did mtber's become such whingers?"
And who is that user named Ridenparadise? Sounds so familiar...
Otherwise, yep, the same arguments.


----------

