# Pedal Force Frame Group Buy #2 ???



## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Burning questions: Is there another group buy happening? If so, when and how does one jump on? Is there interest in another group purchase? I guess I'm a believer after all the + reviews have rolled in. Do we need someone to organize/orchestrate this? What front deraileur will I need again?


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## G-Live (Jan 14, 2004)

Sure but what about a 29er version instead!

G


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Axis II said:


> Burning questions: Is there another group buy happening?


The rumor is yes, sometime in the next couple weeks.



Axis II said:


> Is there interest in another group purchase?


I will be buying at least 3 more frames. 1 for me, and 2 more for a couple buddies.



Axis II said:


> I guess I'm a believer after all the + reviews have rolled in.


I absolutely love the one I have, and now need another to build up the bike I promised my wife with the frame from the 1st GB.



Axis II said:


> Do we need someone to organize/orchestrate this?


Pedal Force ran the last GB themselves. Everything went really smoothly, except the headsets they supplied had a deffective top bearing race.



Axis II said:


> What front deraileur will I need again?


I used a top pull, bottom swing 34.9 XTR M952.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

OK then.:thumbsup: I need another light bike.:skep: 
One more thing:
Whats the HT+HS stack height on these things?


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Axis II said:


> OK then.:thumbsup: I need another light bike.:skep:
> One more thing:
> Whats the HT+HS stack height on these things?


Please no LOOK forks on this! :madman:


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Axis II said:


> OK then.:thumbsup: I need another light bike.:skep:
> One more thing:
> Whats the HT+HS stack height on these things?


With a little "farting around" I was able to keep mine to less than 5.417" (the distance between the clamps on my Lefty Speed Carbon SL) on my 19" frame (4.7" headtube).


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

BlownCivic said:


> With a little "farting around" I was able to keep mine to less than 5.417" (the distance between the clamps on my Lefty Speed Carbon SL) on my 19" frame (4.7" headtube).


Damn, too much for the Fournales (you get your wish DB.) I guess I'll start shopping for a 2008 SID then. Anyone know what the weight on the new SID is rumored to be anyway?


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## drainyoo (May 12, 2007)

At that price It would be worth it to replace my 3.5lbs Scale 40 frame. I wonder how compatible this frame would be with all the components on my current bike. Is it disc ready?


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

drainyoo said:


> At that price It would be worth it to replace my 3.5lbs Scale 40 frame. I wonder how compatible this frame would be with all the components on my current bike. Is it disc ready?


34.9 Top pull FD
31.6 seatpost
Disc/V brake ready
68mm BB



Axis II said:


> Damn, too much for the Fournales (you get your wish DB.)


I have about .200 to .250" in spacers/space to play with there as well, so you could probably get away with 5.2" total height.


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## drainyoo (May 12, 2007)

Im already planning on replacing my crank and FD so im good there and my current post is 31.6. Would an M97 XTR Crank be compatible on this frame? I also wonder if my Fox fork will work well with the geometry of the frame.


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## aeroshots (Oct 21, 2006)

*My PF MT build*

Here is my completed build.:thumbsup: 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120152236624&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=002
Life is what happens when you are making other plans:sad:


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I posted this in the original PF GB thread, but here it is again:

I emailed PF about another GB, and they said nothing planned for the near future. However, they said that a quantity purchase would yield discounts, as I suggested that I would be bringing them 3-4 frame sales. I wonder if we could approach them about a GB of our own, and tentatively get the pricing near or at the $500 per frame from before. Anyone interested? I'd consider administering this.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

BlownCivic said:


> I posted this in the original PF GB thread, but here it is again:
> 
> I emailed PF about another GB, and they said nothing planned for the near future. However, they said that a quantity purchase would yield discounts, as I suggested that I would be bringing them 3-4 frame sales. I wonder if we could approach them about a GB of our own, and tentatively get the pricing near or at the $500 per frame from before. Anyone interested? I'd consider administering this.


Yes! Count me in. Keep me in the loop.


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

I'll buy one.


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## SnowMongoose (Feb 18, 2007)

Totally interested.


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## Zeratul (Jul 31, 2007)

belljeffw said:


> I'll buy one.


me too, (2 frames)


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Damn! We're close to ten frames already.:thumbsup: Any idea on the discount scale per frames purchased? I'll talk to a few guys on my team about this. I may be able to tack on another frame or two if there is interest. I hope we can do this.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Axis II said:


> Damn! We're close to ten frames already.:thumbsup: Any idea on the discount scale per frames purchased? I'll talk to a few guys on my team about this. I may be able to tack on another frame or two if there is interest. I hope we can do this.


I emailed PF on Thursday, but I haven't heard back from them yet. I'll let you guys know as soon as I find out. :thumbsup:


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## Zeratul (Jul 31, 2007)

PF answered me that discount is possible only whan shipping address is the same.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Zeratul said:


> PF answered me that discount is possible only whan shipping address is the same.


If that is the case, I can still do this, and distribute the frames from my address in Blaine, Wa.


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

Count me in for at least one.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

BlownCivic said:


> If that is the case, I can still do this, and distribute the frames from my address in Blaine, Wa.


Thanks for offering to do this. I trust that we won't find all of our spanking new frames on Ebay instead of on our front porches, eh?:madman: So shipping may cost a bit more then last time.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Axis II said:


> Thanks for offering to do this. I trust that we won't find all of our spanking new frames on Ebay instead of on our front porches, eh?:madman: So shipping may cost a bit more then last time.


Naaa! You can pick them up from the back alley behind my work!:eekster:


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## Zeratul (Jul 31, 2007)

Guys,
I get email from PF:
"Dear Przemek,

If you could confirm the number of frames that you and your friends are 
ordering, we could advise you on the discount. All the products are 
shipped from USA. 

The final price will depend on the number of frames ordered. If the 
frames are not shipped to the same address, then the regular shipping 
rate applies as listed on our website. Please see link below for 
shipping rates.


"
I think that we should write mail to PF with name and surname and number of frames.
or we can do it in other way. Any idea?


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

I'd be in for two.

The geometry on these seems a little odd though. Does anyone else think they have really short top tubes? the largest size only has a 606mm TT, that seems awfully short for a 21" bike.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

It appears that we're already at 12 or so frames, without having asked for any money yet, or without knowing the final pricing. I'm feeling pretty confident that this will work out, assumjing of course that PF is willing to sell for a good discount.

If I don't hear from them by the end of the day tomorrow, I'll give them a phone call on Tuesday.

Jacques


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## Zeratul (Jul 31, 2007)

briscoelab said:


> I'd be in for two.
> 
> The geometry on these seems a little odd though. Does anyone else think they have really short top tubes? the largest size only has a 606mm TT, that seems awfully short for a 21" bike.


Is really 606mm for 21'' short??
Look at the Scott Scale for 21'' TT is 620mm (only 1,4 cm longer)
Giant XTC Composite 21' 610mm

What do you think?


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## womble (Sep 8, 2006)

Zeratul said:


> Is really 606mm for 21'' short??
> Look at the Scott Scale for 21'' TT is 620mm (only 1,4 cm longer)
> Giant XTC Composite 21' 610mm
> 
> What do you think?


Those ETT numbers do look short. My XC HT has a 24.4" ETT (size is 18"). The MT has shorter ETTs than the Santa Cruz Heckler! Weird. But people seem plenty happy with the frames.

Edited to mention that my HT is custom, not some really weird 18" standard frame


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## Zeratul (Jul 31, 2007)

womble said:


> Those ETT numbers do look short. My XC HT has a 24.4" ETT (size is 18"). The MT has shorter ETTs than the Santa Cruz Heckler! Weird. But people seem plenty happy with the frames.


But they are almost the same like in the best frames for XC, so i don't know what to say about that...


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

Zeratul said:


> Is really 606mm for 21'' short??
> Look at the Scott Scale for 21'' TT is 620mm (only 1,4 cm longer)
> Giant XTC Composite 21' 610mm
> 
> What do you think?


I personally think that 14 mm is a huge difference. Maybe I'm a fit weenie though, from all my time on road bikes. I happen to be all torso, so it's always a challenge to get bikes that fit correctly in overall reach, while still having a short enough head tube. I have to run a 150mm stem on my road bike! Just call me ape man


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## Zeratul (Jul 31, 2007)

briscoelab said:


> I personally think that 14 cm is a huge difference.


But I wrote thaht there is 1.4 cm difference (14 mm) not 14 cm (140mm).


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Here is a link to the geo. chart. The ETT isn't really too short IMO. My 18inch VooDoo Sobo has a 22.5 ETT. The 17 inch PF has a 22.4 ETT. 
http://pedalforce.com/online/product_info.php?cPath=21_100088_101742&products_id=4702


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

Zeratul said:


> But I wrote thaht there is 1.4 cm difference (14 mm) not 14 cm (140mm).


Sorry for the typo on my part, I personally think a 1.4cm difference is huge. All of my size large MTBs have at least a 610mm ETT and most have a 615mm ETT. These are traditional size 18"-20" bikes.

It's not a huge deal though, I can run a 120mm stem on the MT with not much problem. Just making an observation that these bikes have very short effective top tubes for their given size.


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## womble (Sep 8, 2006)

Zeratul said:


> But they are almost the same like in the best frames for XC, so i don't know what to say about that...


There is no 'best' frame for XC, just what happens to fit a particular rider. Mainly pointing out that these frames probably wouldn't be suitable for people with long torsos who still wanted to run normal or short stems.


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## Pivvay (Aug 19, 2004)

*15"*

I would buy one for my wife. Building all these is going to put me in the poor house. haha


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## Zeratul (Jul 31, 2007)

I got email from PF:
"Dear Przemek,

For 8-10 frames, we can offer $689USD per frame without shipping. 
Depending on the shipping location of each of the package, the 
appropriate shipping charge will apply.

If you and your friends are happy with this price, we can issue you a 
coupon for you and your friends to redeem via your shopping cart on our 
website to give the discount of 61USD.

Please note that each of your friend will have to make the purchase to 
total minimum 8 frames to enjoy the $61USD discount. If we have less 
than 8 frames order, we will adjust the price of the frame to $700.

Please advise if this arrangement is acceptable and we will email you 
the coupon code.

Regards,
Ming Yong
Sales Director
"

I think that the price is ok. So everyone who is interested in that discount write mail to PF that you want coupon code for 61 USD discount. ok ?


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

What happened to "at or near $500"? We went from a discount of more than 25% to a discount of 8%. A nice discount to be sure, but not enough to convince me to buy a frame I probably won't use before next Spring. If we could get the price down to, say, $630 (about 15%), I would still be interested.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Zeratul said:


> I got email from PF:
> "Dear Przemek,
> 
> For 8-10 frames, we can offer $689USD per frame without shipping.
> ...


What? I thought the standard price was $700? This is really an insignificant discount. I vote we hold out for a better deal with either a larger quantity or they come back with a better offer.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Axis II said:


> What? I thought the standard price was $700? This is really an insignificant discount. I vote we hold out for a better deal with either a larger quantity or they come back with a better offer.


The standard price is $750, but I agree that $689 is not the best price. Ming has not responded to my inquiry yet. I emailed her last week. I guess she had deemed me unworthy. I will try and phone her tomorrow.


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## caballero (Nov 20, 2004)

I also could be interested in one of these frames aswell .
does anyone know how long it takes from order to delivery ?


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

We should decide at what price we are willing to buy, so Ming can tell us how many orders are required to qualify for that price.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Good idea. I'll buy at 600 or close to it, I suppose. 500 would be wonderfull.


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## mf9point8 (Feb 20, 2004)

I am expressing my interest now too...

Keep me in the loop, I would be in need of 1 frame. Thanks


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## Vinny A (Oct 8, 2006)

Depending on the price I might want one too for my first weight weenie build. I'm sure as hell not paying $689 though


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## womble (Sep 8, 2006)

Let's keep a bit of perspective here... Giant's composite hartdtail retails for 1500


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## Zeratul (Jul 31, 2007)

Last email from PF:
"Unfortunately we are unable to offer you better discounts. If you are 
able to find quality carbon hardtail mountain frame for less than 
$689USD, you have got a great deal."

I don't know what you guys want to do but i will buy this frame...
So tell me as soon as possible.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Zeratul said:


> Last email from PF:
> "Unfortunately we are unable to offer you better discounts. If you are
> able to find quality carbon hardtail mountain frame for less than
> $689USD, you have got a great deal."
> ...


Hold up cowboy! It's the end of the season. To my mind we have all the time in the world to hold out for a larger quantity purchase/bigger discount. We've picked up like three more frames just in the last two days! Haste makes waste. Patience is a virtue, etc., etc.


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

I'd buy at $689, but would be willing to wait if it pays off. She doesn't make it sound as if quantity matters though. Sounds like a take it or leave it deal.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

tolleyman said:


> I'd buy at $689, but would be willing to wait if it pays off. She doesn't make it sound as if quantity matters though. Sounds like a take it or leave it deal.


Well, she seems to say that the more frames the higher the discount:

_If you could confirm *the number of frames* that you and your friends are 
ordering, we could advise you on the discount. All the products are 
shipped from USA.

*The final price will depend on the number of frames ordered*. If the 
frames are not shipped to the same address, then the regular shipping 
rate applies as listed on our website. Please see link below for 
shipping rates._

I read this to mean that the more frames we order the better the deal, no?


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## Lord Taipan (Aug 21, 2006)

I'd be in for one 15" as well, if we can get a slightly better price.


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

I assume she'd let me order a QS2 road frame as part of this too. That'll put me in for two frames.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I did finally hear back from Ming (by email), and she has said that there would be more discounts for higher quantities. I guess I will have to email her again to find out what that might be. She also mentioned, that depending on the quantity of frames, that they could possibly supply them form their current inventory.

I will try and phone again on Monday to iron out some details.


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## SnowMongoose (Feb 18, 2007)

still interested at 500, not so much above that.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I got more details on the tentative GB today from Pedal Force. Payment would be made to PF directly and shipped directly from PF to individual buyers, so no worries about your frames hitting ebay  . Shipping charges will be as detailed on PF's website ( http://pedalforce.com/online/pages.php?page_id=24 ). I have been told that depending on quantities and sizes that the GB might be able to be filled from their current inventory. Otherwise, there might be a delay getting them from Taiwan. Pedal Force has an order in place currently.

Here's the pricing:

5-10 pieces $675
11-15 pieces $625
16-20 pieces $599
21-25 pieces $510

From the looks of things, we could probably get to 21 frames pretty easily. I'm going out on a limb here, and starting the GB with 3 frames. Please add your intentions here by quoting the list part of this post with your name. Please also keep in mind that on the last GB, PF allowed us to purchase other parts from the "bike build" section of their site, and for the most part, those parts were at a substantial savings over other discount sources. I suspect we'll be able to do the same again.

BlownCivic 3 frames


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

BlownCivic said:


> I got more details on the tentative GB today from Pedal Force. Payment would be made to PF directly and shipped directly from PF to individual buyers, so no worries about your frames hitting ebay  . Shipping charges will be as detailed on PF's website ( http://pedalforce.com/online/pages.php?page_id=24 ). I have been told that depending on quantities and sizes that the GB might be able to be filled from their current inventory. Otherwise, there might be a delay getting them from Taiwan. Pedal Force has an order in place currently.
> 
> Here's the pricing:
> 
> ...


Sounds good. Thanks for the update!:thumbsup:

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame


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## cyclemanpat (Jul 26, 2007)

Originally Posted by BlownCivic
I got more details on the tentative GB today from Pedal Force. Payment would be made to PF directly and shipped directly from PF to individual buyers, so no worries about your frames hitting ebay . Shipping charges will be as detailed on PF's website ( http://pedalforce.com/online/pages.php?page_id=24 ). I have been told that depending on quantities and sizes that the GB might be able to be filled from their current inventory. Otherwise, there might be a delay getting them from Taiwan. Pedal Force has an order in place currently.

Here's the pricing:

5-10 pieces $675
11-15 pieces $625
16-20 pieces $599
21-25 pieces $510

From the looks of things, we could probably get to 21 frames pretty easily. I'm going out on a limb here, and starting the GB with 3 frames. Please add your intentions here by quoting the list part of this post with your name. Please also keep in mind that on the last GB, PF allowed us to purchase other parts from the "bike build" section of their site, and for the most part, those parts were at a substantial savings over other discount sources. I suspect we'll be able to do the same again.

BlownCivic 3 frames

Sounds good. Thanks for the update!

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)


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## Lord Taipan (Aug 21, 2006)

Count me in for sure on this one. Hopefully we can get 21 for sure.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame


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## Zeratul (Jul 31, 2007)

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame
Zeratul 1 frame


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame
Zeratul 1 frame
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower)


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

If it's possible to get a road frame under the same deal, I may be interested in 1 or 2 additional frames.


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

Sounds good. Thanks for the update!:thumbsup: 

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame[
Briscoelab 1 frame


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame
Zeratul 1 frame
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower, maybe more if road frames available)
Briscoelab 1 frame


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

BlownCivic]BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame
Zeratul 1 frame
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower, maybe more if road frames available)
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame,perhaps 2 if road frames are available.


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## mf9point8 (Feb 20, 2004)

BlownCivic]BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame
Zeratul 1 frame
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower, maybe more if road frames available)
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame,perhaps 2 if road frames are available.
MF9point8 1 Frame.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

How soon are those that have shown interest going to be able to pay? I just got word this morning that we have till the 15th of September to have our money in, or the GB goes to another "interested party". Please help me maintain some credibility here with Pedal Force.

Thanks

Jacques


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## mf9point8 (Feb 20, 2004)

Whenever you need. Specifically how will we be paying.
-Michael


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I don't have all the details ironed out just yet, but you'll be paying Pedal Force directly and if I recall correctly, on the last GB, Credit Card, Paypal payments or money orders work.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

BlownCivic said:


> How soon are those that have shown interest going to be able to pay? I just got word this morning that we have till the 15th of September to have our money in, or the GB goes to another "interested party". Please help me maintain some credibility here with Pedal Force.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jacques


:madman: If they are going to decrease our window of opportunity it handicaps our ability to get the best possible price. I suppose that's exactly what they are trying to accomplish here. I would say that you have lost no credibility with PF if they are going to throw an arbitrary deadline into the mix on such short notice. Shall we call their bluff? I can pay emmediately BUT I was looking forward to the 625 figure at least.


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

I can pay right away as well.


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## mf9point8 (Feb 20, 2004)

Alright sounds good. Keep us posted, 
Thanks for all of your work thus far.


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

I can pay immediately, but I also don't have any problem waiting several months. If they don't have enough frames on hand, it could take time for them to get more frames manufactured. 

They say the frames are made in factories in Taiwan that make parts for multiple bike companies. Each new batch would have to be scheduled around whatever else is happening, and the larger bike companies probably take precedence. I'm guessing the group buy programs they set up were to verify they had enough orders to cover their up-front manufacturing costs.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Well the official word on other frames (road stuff) is no. Only the MT frame can take part in this GB. We now have just over 1 week to get to the 21 piece count. Lets spread the word folks.


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## Lord Taipan (Aug 21, 2006)

Axis II said:


> :madman: If they are going to decrease our window of opportunity it handicaps our ability to get the best possible price. I suppose that's exactly what they are trying to accomplish here. I would say that you have lost no credibility with PF if they are going to throw an arbitrary deadline into the mix on such short notice. Shall we call their bluff? I can pay emmediately BUT I was looking forward to the 625 figure at least.


My thoughts exactly, what happened to their usual deposit then wait, then pay rest plan like all the other group buys? If we're getting kneecaped here with a deadline I say we call their bluff.


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## mf9point8 (Feb 20, 2004)

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=34490

I posted info up on weight weenies, maybe we'll get some takers from there/


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Lord Taipan said:


> My thoughts exactly, what happened to their usual deposit then wait, then pay rest plan like all the other group buys?


The MT GB was "pay in full in advance". We waited from the onset of the GB in January till the frame deliveries in May.


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## mf9point8 (Feb 20, 2004)

In your opinion what do you think the wait will be this time around?


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## Lord Taipan (Aug 21, 2006)

BlownCivic said:


> The MT GB was "pay in full in advance". We waited from the onset of the GB in January till the frame deliveries in May.


So these will ship immediately? I'm still in..I guess my powertap system can wait .


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

If it gets to the point that buying another frame will save us another $89, that would push me over the edge into buying two. I bet some of the other posters feel the same way. In other words if we can only get 20 commitments, I will definitely become the 21st.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I was lead to believe that up to a certain volume, they would ship immediately from Pedal Force's current inventory. If we surpased their inventory, it would come from the order that they currently have in with their supplier in Taiwan. I do not know what that "magic" number is. I can try and find out later today. I just got home from the graveyard shift at work, and need to get some sleep now.


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

I am interested in a large frame. I need a new project. Keep me posted. Thanks.


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## seven-22 (Mar 1, 2007)

Interested. Assuming the 21 piece frame price, does anyone know what the total cost would be including shipping and any other fees such as customs?


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

sandmangts said:


> I am interested in a large frame. I need a new project. Keep me posted. Thanks.


Excellent. If you are serious go ahead and put your name on the list and then post the updated list so we can keep track of where we are at. If you look up in the thread you will see the list with everyone's name and number of frames to be ordered.


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

BlownCivic]BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame
Zeratul 1 frame
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower, maybe more if road frames available)
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame,perhaps 2 if road frames are available.
MF9point8 1 Frame.
sandmangts 1 frame


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Let's keep this going guys. We only need 8-9 more frames (depending on seven-22's intentions). I'm also hoping that everyone on the list is ready to pony up before next Saturday (the 15th). I didn't hear back from Ming at PF on the inventory levels today, so I suspect we'll need to wait to Monday for this.

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame
Zeratul 1 frame
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower)
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame
MF9point8 1 Frame.
sandmangts 1 frame


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## aussie_yeti (Apr 27, 2004)

Does anyone remember what shipping to Australia cost? Money has to be in by Saturday the 15th? How do I pay, are they setting up an online GB page again?


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## Motomatt (Sep 8, 2007)

I want 1 frame, where is the list ?


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

Motomatt said:


> I want 1 frame, where is the list ?


Here you go:

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame
Zeratul 1 frame
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower)
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame
MF9point8 1 Frame.
sandmangts 1 frame
Motomatt 1 frame

Only 8 more frames needed for the 510USD amount.:thumbsup:


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

aussie_yeti said:


> Does anyone remember what shipping to Australia cost? Money has to be in by Saturday the 15th? How do I pay, are they setting up an online GB page again?


According to this page, shipping by US Postal Service to Australia is $61 US, and by DHL Courier its $165.

http://pedalforce.com/online/pages.php?page_id=24&osCsid=530301b17384891dc69e6685d5557970

The payment details have not yet been worked out. Either we'll get a GB page or there'll be some other arrangement. Yes, payment in full will be required by the 15th (next Saturday).


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## Daveke (Sep 8, 2007)

Hi!

I'm definitely up for one!
Few questions: Payment has to be directly made to PF?
How will I send my adress and other info? Shipping to Holland is possible?

Thanks


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Daveke said:


> Hi!
> 
> I'm definitely up for one!
> Few questions: Payment has to be directly made to PF?
> ...


Yes, payment is directly to Pedal Force. Your address and other info will be required by Pedal Force when making your payment. Payment details are not yet finalised, but I will have details at the begining of next week. Shipping to Holland is no problem. I don't see it on Pedal Force's country list for shipping charges, but shipping to most other European countries is $41 US.


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## Motomatt (Sep 8, 2007)

I want a 15",I'm 5.5 does that sound right , I'm currently riding a 17 moots ybb, I would like a shorter head tube, and seat tube.
l can pay immediately.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

seven-22 said:


> Interested. Assuming the 21 piece frame price, does anyone know what the total cost would be including shipping and any other fees such as customs?


Hi there,

Just realised that no one answered your questions. The Pedal Force website shows domestic shipping by Fed Ex as $30, and the customs fees are already paid by Pedal Force (*this statement only applies to buyers in the USA*, since Pedal Force is located in the USA), as they are the ones importing the frames into the US. If we hit 21+ frames, you're looking at $540 including all costs.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame
Zeratul 1 frame
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower)
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame
MF9point8 1 Frame.
sandmangts 1 frame
Motomatt 1 frame
Daveke 1 frame

I may be upping my commitment to 4, possibly 5 frames. I'll know early in the week. We're almost there :thumbsup:!


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## 7four8 (Sep 9, 2007)

BlownCivic said:


> BlownCivic 3 frames
> Axis II 1 frame
> cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
> Lord Taipan 1 frame
> ...


I'm up for a 15"


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame
Zeratul 1 frame
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower)
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame
MF9point8 1 Frame.
sandmangts 1 frame
Motomatt 1 frame
Daveke 1 frame
7four8 1 frame


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

Off-topic, but that YBB is beautiful! If it were a little larger, I would gladly swap you my Pedal Force bike 

For my 19in frame, the published Pedal Force numbers were very accurate. The 15in is much shorter than the 17in, and also much shorter than your YBB. Unless your YBB is much too large, you probably want the 17in PedalForce.

Moots geometry:
http://www.moots.com/bicycle.php?ID=8


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## alexedge (Jul 11, 2007)

*Can't make it this time..*

Unfortunately it looks like I will have to wait til the next GB comes up, I just spent all my extra $$ on road bike stuff.

Seems like this shouldn't be too hard - for the first GB, we were able to get 50 orders despite the frame being a relative unknown, and some people having concerns about quality. Now that 50 RBRers own em and have been posting great things, I'm sure a lot more people will have the confidence to buy one.

I'm thinking about buying a PF road frame as well later this year, either the superlight CF version or the Ti/CF 'Fusion' (which is stunningly beautiful and probably rides amazing, but it's more expensive than the carbon frame AND heavier)...;


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## Motomatt (Sep 8, 2007)

EuroMack said:


> Off-topic, but that YBB is beautiful! If it were a little larger, I would gladly swap you my Pedal Force bike
> 
> For my 19in frame, the published Pedal Force numbers were very accurate. The 15in is much shorter than the 17in, and also much shorter than your YBB. Unless your YBB is much too large, you probably want the 17in PedalForce.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for reply
I agree the top tube lenght is too short , but I want a shorter ct, and head tube :???:


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

Not wishing to stick my nose in here but would it not be better to set up a company bank the money then order the frames 

In fact its kind of working on a buy bulk stack em high sellem cheap principle so if the interest was there i would order 25 and stick a small middleman fee on top

maybe theres an entrepreneurial type here whos prepared to take a risk


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## Daveke (Sep 8, 2007)

I was wondering how you guys are going to build up your ride?

Mine's is going to have XTR M-960 V-Brake throughout with a Dura Ace 12-25 sprocket
CrossMax SL wheels without logo's rigged with Conti Twister Supersonics during summer or Conti Leader ProTections in the winter. Maxxis Flyweight innertubes. Fork will be a WCS Carbon from Ritchey who also provides the carbon stem, handlebar and seatpost. Nokon cables (black with silver paired), Selle Italia SLR titanium saddle and a Patao Carbon bottlecage
I'm not sure how much the bike will weigh, but would be close to 8 kg's 

When I have some spare cash a set of CrossMax SLR's will be bought for summer rides.

Looking forward to see your buildups!


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

*Blown Civic?......*

Just curious about where we are at with a price and payment process. I will be leaving town for a race this Thursday and will return Sunday. I will not have computer access so I was hoping to pay prior to leaving.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I have emailed PF on all these issues, but have not heard back yet. I suspect I'll have the answers in the morning.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

*The List.......?*



BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame
Zeratul 1 frame
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower)
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame
MF9point8 1 Frame.
sandmangts 1 frame
Motomatt 1 frame
Daveke 1 Frame
Alexl993 1 frame
Snowmongoose 1 frame?

I'm not positive I have everyone so have a look. I count 16?


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Not 100% sure how interested Snowmongoose is at $510, but 7four8 seemed to want on the list?


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## SnowMongoose (Feb 18, 2007)

SnowMongoose is interested at 510, based partially on delivery timeframe.


god damn I love speaking in the third person!


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## 7four8 (Sep 9, 2007)

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame
Zeratul 1 frame
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower)
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame
MF9point8 1 Frame.
sandmangts 1 frame
Motomatt 1 frame
Daveke 1 Frame
Alexl993 1 frame
Snowmongoose 1 frame?
7four8 1 frame

Yep I'm in and can pay PF ASAP.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Well, we're borderline on 18. Another buddy at work is waffling back and forth between spending the loot on a new engine for his 1st gen Beetle or buying one of these frames. I'm doing my best sales job on him as we speak. There's also a couple people over on Weight Weenies asking some pretty serious questions about the frames, so here's hoping  .


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

I'm going to be camping Friday through Sunday, and will be without Internet access. I'm OK with the $600 price we get with the current number of buyers, even better with the 21 buyer price. If the deadline is the 15th, how long after that date do we have to pay? I can pay anytime through Friday morning, and anytime after I get back Sunday night.


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## kjerts (Aug 24, 2007)

$600 without VAT + shipping, right?


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

$510 if we get 21 bikes. We're at 17 now.


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

Come on! We've got to get it up to 21, that's too good of a deal!


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

OK, I got word early this morning on how this is going to happen. I meant to copy the email from Pedal Force right into this thread, but since I can't access my Hotmail at work, I forwarded what I thought was the Pedal Force email to my work account. I ended up forwarding the wrong email. Oops!

Here's the jist of how its going to happen:

1st of all, the deadline is now *September 30th*!

2nd, the $510 price applies to *20* frames or more.

3rd, we pay online at the Pedal Force store. There is a coupon code that I will have to post when I get home that will give a $240 discount.

If we do not have 20 paid frames by the 30th, participants will have the option of paying the difference to get to the price point for how ever many frames we reach, or having their payment fully refunded.

Ming gave me the quantities of their current inventory as well, but again, I'll have to wait till I get home to post these up. She said 1st come 1st served on the frame sizes. I will clarify with her if it will be possible to defer delivery of a particular frame size should they run out till their new shipment arrives. I seem to recall there being 15-20 of each of the 17 and 19" frames. There was one size that had 1 in stock, but I can't remember if it was 15" or 21".

There may have been more to the email. I will check when I get home (around 5:00 Pacific time).


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## mf9point8 (Feb 20, 2004)

awesome all good news!... keep us posted.


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## Motomatt (Sep 8, 2007)

I'm off the list I went another route i bought a 2008 AZONIC AZ-7 BLACK Anodized 16.5 I had them weigh the frame before I bought it 1230 g , sorry guys.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Lord Taipan 1 frame
Zeratul 1 frame
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower)
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame
MF9point8 1 Frame.
sandmangts 1 frame
Daveke 1 Frame
Alexl993 1 frame
Snowmongoose 1 frame
7four8 1 frame

OK Motomatt.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

OK, here's the email:

_Here is the inventory breakdown. 
17" - 8 pieces
19" - 15 pieces
21" - 1 piece

So this will be based on first come first serve. Here is the process. Please forward this email to your friends. 
(1) New customers will create your account via our website.
(2) Proceed to the MT frame and add the frame to cart.
(3) Use the coupon code *MTPVT* (this coupon would deduct $240) and bring the price to $510.
(4) The dateline for meeting the 20 pieces is 30th of September.

Once the order is received, the customer will be informed via email if his order size is available or otherwise. If the minimum order of 20 pieces is not reached, we will email everyone involved of their option to either pay the higher price or get a refund._

I have emailed to find out if there is any 15" frames in stock (no mention), and if they will honour orders for frames not in stock with the new delivery they are expecting.


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## cyclemanpat (Jul 26, 2007)

I am on the Pedal force site now.............I was wondering, we pay with a credit card now or they hold our CC number then take the money out when the frame is shipped?


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## Lord Taipan (Aug 21, 2006)

BlownCivic said:


> OK, here's the email:
> 
> _Here is the inventory breakdown.
> 17" - 8 pieces
> ...


Hmmm that sucks because I need a 15", I hope they email you back soon.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

cyclemanpat said:


> I am on the Pedal force site now.............I was wondering, we pay with a credit card now or they hold our CC number then take the money out when the frame is shipped?


I would suspect that they will take payment in full now. That is how it was handled on the last GB.

Edit: Now that I look back, I paid by money order, and they did not cash the money order till the GB was completed (50 frames reached). I don't know if that's how this one will be handled. I'll try and find out.



Lord Taipan said:


> Hmmm that sucks because I need a 15", I hope they email you back soon.


I'll let you know as soon as I hear.


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

They must not have the coupon code setup yet. I tried to order with MTPVT as the coupon code, and never get the confirmation page.


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## Zeratul (Jul 31, 2007)

belljeffw said:


> They must not have the coupon code setup yet. I tried to order with MTPVT as the coupon code, and never get the confirmation page.


Strange... I got confirmation and discount


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Well bad news for you guys after 15" frames. There are none. Ming also said that our special pricing applies only to their current inventory. So if you're after a 21" frame, get in there quick.



Zeratul said:


> Strange... I got confirmation and discount


So did I. You have to get pretty far along in the purchasing process for the coupon discount ot be shown, but not to the point of making your payment.


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

weird, weird... The page where I enter card info has the "enter coupon code" box. I fill out card info and enter the code and press either redeem or continue and it returns me to the same page with a message at the top that says "This coupon could only be used 1 times". If I don't enter the coupon code and just hit continue, I get the confirmation page with a price of $750. This happens in Mozilla as well as IE. 

I'm going to register as a different user and see what happens. I've probably already ordered 5 frames at full price


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

belljeffw said:


> "This coupon could only be used 1 times".


I'm getting the same thing now. I think I'll call Ming to get to the bottom of this.

Jacques


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

Whew, I was starting to think it was just me. I created a new account and tried twice more with the same results. When you talk to Ming ask here when she's sending my 7 frames


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## mf9point8 (Feb 20, 2004)

I got the "Can only be used once" error when checking out too...

What is our total count for frames ordered???


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I think we're sitting at 15 frames right now. Since there are no 15", I suspect Lord Taipan is out. We still have 2 weeks to get to 20 frames.


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## Lord Taipan (Aug 21, 2006)

BlownCivic said:


> I think we're sitting at 15 frames right now. Since there are no 15", I suspect Lord Taipan is out. We still have 2 weeks to get to 20 frames.


Arggg...well I guess that does put me out...sorry guys. Thanks for putting it together BC, maybe next time.


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## 7four8 (Sep 9, 2007)

I need a 15" too! We don't get the GB rate if it's not in stock? If that's the case I have to back out.


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

I emailed Ming today asking if they still had 21" frames left, she said it would take about two weeks to get one, but didn't mention not getting the discount. I may be out if I can't get a 21".


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## SnowMongoose (Feb 18, 2007)

Tuition just hit, work isn't covering as much as I had planned, count me out on this one guys.


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

Hmm, okay....

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Zeratul 1 frame
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower)
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame (needs 21" frame)
MF9point8 1 Frame.
sandmangts 1 frame
Daveke 1 Frame
Alexl993 1 frame

We're down to 13 frames.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Guys, 

As you pay, please update the list showing so, so we can keep track of what's going on. Things are evolving rapidly here.


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## Zeratul (Jul 31, 2007)

I paid, and PF told me that i was first who bought 21'' frame...


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
Zeratul 1 frame *PAID*
Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower)
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame (needs 21" frame)
MF9point8 1 Frame.
sandmangts 1 frame
Daveke 1 Frame
Alexl993 1 frame


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

That sucks for me, I emailed her a couple days ago and she told me there were none available for two weeks.


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

I'm still getting the "coupon can only be used 1 times" error. I can't pay until that's cleared up.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I contacted Ming on Thursday about clearing this up. I haven't heard back from her yet. I'm begining to think Pedal Force are deliberatly trying to sabotage this GB.


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

That would suck, though I don't know how they can make a profit at these prices. The dollar is getting stomped in the currency markets and manufacturing costs are rising everywhere. Their next run is certain to cost more than the last one.


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree, this whole process has been full of issues.


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

I just successfully placed an order with the coupon code. With a seat post clamp and $25 domestic shipping, the total was under $550. I guess they fixed their order system...


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I agree that the process was less than "simple". I also have the coupon code working properly now. I have asked Pedal Force if they would consider adding a couple frames from the next shipment in the 15" and 21" sizes to allow us the opportunity to possibly reach the $510 price point. I know that we need another 7 frames, but we can try.

Pay up boys. We don't want to tank on this GB altogether.

Jacques


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

BlownCivic 3 frames
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
*PAID* Zeratul 1 frame *PAID*
*PAID* Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower) *PAID*
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame (needs 21" frame)
MF9point8 1 Frame.
sandmangts 1 frame
Daveke 1 Frame
Alexl993 1 frame


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

I totally up for it, I have to have a 21" though, keep me up to date on that.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

tolleyman said:


> I totally up for it, I have to have a 21" though, keep me up to date on that.


They won't be shipping these frames out till after the 30th anyways, so I guess you might be OK to get a 21" frame. Did Ming not say the'd have some by then?


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

Well, when I inquired about a 21" a week or so ago, she said that it would take two weeks to get one, and they had none in stock. Then shortly after that you posted that the GB could only be take out of the "in-stock" frames. That made me assume that I couldn't get a 21 on this GB. Then a couple days later another forum member posted that they purchased a 21 through the website. So, I'm a little confused right now.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

tolleyman said:


> So, I'm a little confused right now.


I understand your confusion. I was initially told that there was only 1 21" frame left in stock. I believe that is the one that Zeratul got. I guess I got the impression from your post that Ming would be able to get more (maybe only 1) for you.

I have since been told by Ming that they are checking with their dealers to see if anyone has stock on the 15 and 21" frames. I don't know if that means that they will pull them back from the dealers to sell to us on the GB, or if they'll simply refer us to the dealers directly (hope not).

Once again, I'll let you know what I find out.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

*2 PAID* BlownCivic 3 frames *2 PAID*
Axis II 1 frame
cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
*PAID* Zeratul 1 frame *PAID*
*PAID* Jeff Bell 1 frame (@ $625 or lower) *PAID*
Briscoelab 1 frame
tolleyman 1 frame (needs 21" frame)
MF9point8 1 Frame.
sandmangts 1 frame
Daveke 1 Frame
Alexl993 1 frame

I'll be paying for my 3rd frame in a day or 2. Gotta collect from my buddy first. Come on gang, we only have 11 days to make this GB work.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

BlownCivic said:


> *2 PAID* BlownCivic 3 frames *2 PAID*
> *PAID*Axis II 1 frame*PAID*
> cyclemnpat 1 frame(M)
> *PAID* Zeratul 1 frame *PAID*
> ...


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Anyone else ready to settle up? Keep in mind that if you buy in at the $510 price, and we don't hit the numbers, and you're not happy at the new price, you have the option of a full refund.


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

On the bright side if this deal falls through, I'm going to get a Yeti Seven when they come out in March ;-)


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Here's Ming's reply from this morning:

_As for the 15" and 21" all our bike shop dealers need the frames. I may have 1 piece of each of these sizes available in my warehouse that was not in our system. I have to have the warehouse double check that and this will not be done till earliest middle of next week.

Regards,Ming_


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## mf9point8 (Feb 20, 2004)

I read this:

"Despite the deadline I imposed on you, my day is so allocated out that I simply cannot take the 5 minutes to walk over to where the frames are shelved and see what we have for at least 3 or 4 days, I realize by not providing you wiht an accurate inventory I'm screwing you over, tough luck."

We still have 9 days... cross your fingers.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

C'mon guys. Please settle up with Pedal Force. We don't want this GB to go bye, bye.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

It's dead, Jim. I think people saw there wasn't a chance in hell we were going to hit the numbers/frame sizes were in question and have ducked out. The only question now is how long will they hold onto our $$.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Axis II said:


> It's dead, Jim. The only question now is how long will they hold onto our $$.


Are you only in at $510, or are you interested at slightly higher pricing (say $625?)?

Anyone else? I'm buying no matter what, but it'd be nice to save *some* money.


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

I'll still buy at $625, since I already said I would. I haven't been all that impressed with the company's response time with this deal, though, and I suspect that will carry over into any issues I have with the frame. If we have 11 buyers, I'm in at $625 with no complaints. If we have 12, I'll probably want out.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

belljeffw said:


> If we have 11 buyers, I'm in at $625 with no complaints. If we have 12, I'll probably want out.


I hope you meant:

If we have 11 buyers, I'm in at $625 with no complaints. If we have 10, I'll probably want out.


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

Heh, I''m definitely out if we have 10, since that would put me over the $625 limit. If we have 12, though, I can walk away without costing anyone money. I might still buy, but I'm not as excited about the deal as I was several weeks ago.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Now I understand. 

Let's keep this alive folks.


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## grey_goat (Jul 24, 2007)

I just looked at the site and there's a new official group buy for the MT frame. Deadline is Oct 31 for signing up.


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

I received an email from PedalForce yesterday:



MingYoung said:


> Thanks for your order in the private groupbuy organized by your friend. We had numerous requests from other forums as well as various individuals on a groupbuy for the MT frame. As such, we have decided to start a MT frame groupbuy via our website. Your name will be added to this list for our groupbuy purposes. All sizes will be available for delivery in Feb 2008.


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## tolleyman (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't know if that's good or bad, sounds like we won't get any frames until Feb. 08'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

tolleyman said:


> I don't know if that's good or bad, sounds like we won't get any frames until Feb. 08'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


It's the end of the season anyway. At least this way all stand a better chance at a great price by rolling it together.


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## kjerts (Aug 24, 2007)

Is there any tax/VAT included in the price?


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## belljeffw (Feb 10, 2004)

Not in the US, but I believe Norway levies a VAT on imports.


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## cyclemanpat (Jul 26, 2007)

how are we looking? Do you think we will get these frames for $510??:???: :???:


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

cyclemanpat said:


> how are we looking? Do you think we will get these frames for $510??:???: :???:


It's really hard to tell now that it's all rolled together on Pedal Force's site. Perhaps Ming could provide you an update?


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