# Centerstand for Big Dummy



## AndrewQ (Aug 4, 2006)

I've been looking around for a decent centerstand for my Big Dummy, and haven't found one that really does what I need. So I went looking for a basic kickstand, and I found something interesting. I've never owned a bike with a kickstand before, so maybe some of you are aware of these but I certainly wasn't.

There is a centerstand made by Esge that folds up like a normal kickstand. When its in the down position (deployed?), there are two legs supporting the load, but due to a cam mechanism it stows much like a normal kickstand with the two legs stacked on top of each other. Here the centerstand is up:










And here it is in the down position:










Since this part was designed with a more conventional bicycle in mind, a few easy modifications were needed to make it work. There's a metal spacer that came with the stand that interfered with the BD's frame, so it needed to be trimmed with a hacksaw. And the securing bolt goes into a blind hole and the bolt is too long, so the bolt bottoms out before proper clamp load is achieved. Again, the hacksaw is your friend. And you may need to clean up the bolt's threads with a die or thread chaser depending on how messy you were when you cut it. Here's a pic to show what was needed:










And here's a pic of the stand installed, from an overhead view. Hopefully this will illustrate why the spacer needed to be cut on the left side:










And don't forget to put Loctite on the bolt threads, and trim the length of the centerstand legs to suit your needs. I trimmed off a bunch and still my rear wheel is in the air when up on the stand. That means it takes a bit more work to raise and lower the bike when loaded, but it also means I can lube the chain and adjust the derailleurs without the need for a workstand.

Its not perfect, because the centerstand is offset to left side of the bike (because that's where surly put the mounting location) and its also not perfectly centered along the length of the bike. So this means you still have to load the left side of the bike first, and also when you start loading it up the front wheel pops up a bit, but this is fairly minor in my opinion. I think its a good work-around until a "real" centerstand comes to market. And you can always just lay the bike on its side like Devo, if you prefer.

Hope this helps somebody looking for a solution.

PS. I think this was ~$50 at my local shop.


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## SelfPropelledDevo (Oct 2, 2005)

i like it.

this is the first post i've seen using that kick stand. i've been curious to see how it would work out. the $50 deal... thats a ton of money for a kick stand, but i can see how my perception could change, and that kickstand gets nothing but good reviews.

fairly recently, when i was in Big Sur, i met a guy from London, who was riding a Koga World Traveler.

it has a FRONT KICKSTAND!
http://www.futurecycles.org/index.p...n=com_virtuemart&Itemid=91&vmcchk=1&Itemid=91
i thought that was a pretty good idea.

i've also seen kickstands for BOB trailers
http://www.biketrailershop.com/catalog/260-greenfield-stabalizer-kickstandfor-bob-trailer-p-113.html
and have wondered if there was a way to re-orient the mounting bracket, and find a spot on the NON-drive side, to put a 2nd kick stand. or perhaps 2 of these kick stands could find symmetrical spots on the BD. only if the mount/kickstand could be re-oriented.

or these from Tranz-X... http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/c/ACKICK
i wonder if they could be mounted on both sides of the BD... maybe somewhere close to the back... behind the axel


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## McLovin (Sep 7, 2007)

*You might find this interesting.*

A little pricey but pretty much right on target. Found here. Hit the blog link on their website for more info.


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## SelfPropelledDevo (Oct 2, 2005)

it seems to me The Kickstand gig with the Dummy begs to be addressed. i know I break them all the time... its a drag.

the Koga kickstand was way cool, cuz its adjustable, and it mounted to the bottom of the front pannier, a Tubus i think it was.

as i learned from Fred of London, i thought it was "the dog's bollocks"... meaning the best. if its just "bollocks" thats the worst, its...

i think someone needs to come out with a frame mount, adjustable, multi-oriented kickstand.

if the dummy had 4 kickstands, 2 rear & 2 of those Koga types for the panniers... then it would be a done deal.

maybe a brake lever that lets you lock the brakes.

d-


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## AndrewQ (Aug 4, 2006)

Yeah, I've seen that red one before. It looks fairly well executed, but pricey. It looks like you're paying for all the labor involved. It doesn't look too hard to fab up something similar.

But I'm not feeling the 4 kickstand idea. It might be stable, but that's 3 extra steps as far as I'm concerned. And I frequently lock my bike up at crowded bike racks, so I don't always have extra room on both sides of the bike to extend all the kickstands. I personally like the integrated centerstands that the dutch bikes use, which is similar to what Mclovin posted above.

As to the brake lock idea, I have been thinking about the same thing. Since my primary brakes are hydraulic discs, I was thinking of mounting V-brakes (but no levers on the bars) and figuring out a way to lock them on for security while parked.

Another idea is to use something like this from the motorcycle industry:










I've seen metal ones as well. Someone could still steal your bike, but it would slow them down.


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## SelfPropelledDevo (Oct 2, 2005)

i agree, the 4 kickstand deal, is ridiculous... too many steps, etc.

i park my dummy with bikes too, bike racks,etc..

i use Avid mech's, and simply dial in the outboard adjuster knob on the front brake...
but sometimes its difficult to access the dial, i.e. when panniers are full.

i had also seen that red kickstand before.

Xtracycle offers the "rock sturdy" kickstand...
which utilizes the holes in the frame for the WideLoaders...

perhaps some kind of torsional spring system, on a long axel, with kickstand legs that bolt on, via a spline pattern, would work... kind of like a garage door.... wind up spring.


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

Why not just a rubberband or a velco strap to hold the lever down?


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## SelfPropelledDevo (Oct 2, 2005)

rubber band is a good one... the ones from broccoli


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## AndrewQ (Aug 4, 2006)

I was referring to the brake lock for security purposes. Now that I re-read Devo's post, I think he was talking about locking the brake to aid in stability. In that case the cheaper rubber band or strip of inner tube would make a lot more sense.


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## Val Kleitz (Feb 4, 2009)

Just to give this thread a bit of an update, the stand pictured in the third post (way back there) was an early version of the Rolling Jackass centerstand, and details of the current (greatly improved) version can be seen at www.rollingjackass.com For what it's worth, my favorite brake lock for purposes of stability (and security, as long as you're dealing with clueless goofballs, which is ususlly the case) is a toe clip strap. Mighty handy little items, those are, even if you don't have toe clips. Cheers!


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## pigeonfarmboy (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm new to all this but when I was ordering my xtracycle stuff I went ahead and got what looks like a great solution to a center stand. Surprised it wasn't mentioned so far. (too new I assume)

Xtracycle KickBack
http://store.xtracycle.com/_e/Xtracycle_Accessories/product/KS-KB/KickBack.htm


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## superjohnny (Aug 5, 2005)

Val Kleitz said:


> Just to give this thread a bit of an update, the stand pictured in the third post (way back there) was an early version of the Rolling Jackass centerstand, and details of the current (greatly improved) version can be seen at www.rollingjackass.com For what it's worth, my favorite brake lock for purposes of stability (and security, as long as you're dealing with clueless goofballs, which is ususlly the case) is a toe clip strap. Mighty handy little items, those are, even if you don't have toe clips. Cheers!


Anyone who spends $350 on a kickstand ought to have their head examined.


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## bigflax925 (Aug 15, 2004)

I believe that Xtracycle has these on sale (ends 02/18) for $99 or $40 off the regular price. I ordered one to try on my Dummy.



pigeonfarmboy said:


> I'm new to all this but when I was ordering my xtracycle stuff I went ahead and got what looks like a great solution to a center stand. Surprised it wasn't mentioned so far. (too new I assume)
> 
> Xtracycle KickBack
> http://store.xtracycle.com/_e/Xtracycle_Accessories/product/KS-KB/KickBack.htm


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## pigeonfarmboy (Feb 17, 2009)

Grrrr, missed that. I'll write em to see if they'll give me a refund.


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## Val Kleitz (Feb 4, 2009)

superjohnny: You may be right, but I have also heard it said that anyone who would spend over $300.00 on a bicycle should have their head examined. Then we have those who would spend $1200.00 on a rear hub for a bicycle, not to mention $150.00 for a headset or $250.00 for a crankset. It is, of course, possible to build your own cargo bike out of left over frames and found parts, and many of these are quite functional. Not everyone wants to do that. The Rolling Jackass stand is intended to last the life of the bicycle, be easy to install, use and maintain, and to hold loads of up to 350 lbs stable while the rider mounts and dismounts. For those who do not need this, it is excessive. For those who do need that sort of thing, it is worth checking out. It may seem hard to believe, but so far, no one has regretted getting one. I can't imagine riding my Xtracycle without it; it really does make that much of a difference.


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

Still doesn't make sense to drop 350 when you can get the same thing for around 150, especially considering the cheaper one is much less kludged up.


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## anthony_coley (Jul 15, 2005)

I have the KickBack on my Dummy and it's indispensable. It's worth every penny even at the full price of $139 and should be the first accessory purchased for the DB, IMO.



pigeonfarmboy said:


> I'm new to all this but when I was ordering my xtracycle stuff I went ahead and got what looks like a great solution to a center stand. Surprised it wasn't mentioned so far. (too new I assume)
> 
> Xtracycle KickBack
> http://store.xtracycle.com/_e/Xtracycle_Accessories/product/KS-KB/KickBack.htm


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## Val Kleitz (Feb 4, 2009)

ScaryJerry: You're right, it wouldn't make any sense if you were getting the same thing, but that is not the case. Let me say first off that I dearly love the staff and the vision of Xtracycle, and I am very glad that they are finally making a stand of this type, at a very reasonable price. The reason that I am making them too is that I have been making stands for the Xtracycle for the last six years, since they had not gotten around to it during that time, and at this point I believe that mine is, in many ways, better. To enumerate:
-The Rolling Jackass stand is based on a true over center mechanism. What this means is that when you pick the bike up, the stand remains in place. This may not seem like a big deal, but it can save a lot of time and trouble when working on the rear wheel, or even just when moving the bike in a garage.
-The main pivot on the RJ consists of a 3/8" stainless shaft running through a chromoly tube, with a lube port. It is protected from the majority of the wheel splash by the body of the stand, and should only require lubrication at very rare intervals. By contrast, the Kickback pivot uses plastic bushings over aluminum tubes - not a bad system, just not as sturdy or servicable.
-The RJ is made in Seattle in a bicycle oriented fabrication shop ( http://www.haulincolin.com/index.html ). To many, this is not a consideration, and I know that the factories where Xtracycle products are made have been thoroughly checked out for fair labor practices and responsible manufacturing, but it is important to some to buy more locally. This also means that we can make imporovements (if we find any more to make) and produce small batches in non standard colors, if the demand arises.
- The RJ is actuated by a remote lever on the handlebars, so that the bike can be securely set onto the stand before you need to swing a leg over it. In many circumstances, this is not necessary, but if you have ever arrived with a Big Dummy or Xtracycle fully loaded with groceries and two kids on the back, you will understand why it is worth it. You stop, put both feet on the ground, set the bike on the stand, and then get off, while the bike sits still. The added security and safety should not be underestimated.
As far as it being a kludge is concerned, the Rolling Jackass stand has been developed over six years of continuous prototyping, improvement and abusive testing. It is stable, sturdy, easy to use, easy to install, and practically impervious to the weather. If all those qualities fit within your definition of a "kludge", then, cool, that must be what it is. Somehow I had thought that the word had a slightly different meaning. 
Anthony: I fully agree with you about the necessity of a centerstand for any serious cargo bike. I built my first one before I even had the bike assembled, because I knew I would need it. It's good that folks who need one have more than one option, yes?
Cheers!


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## SSSasky (Mar 17, 2004)

Another thing the RJ has going for it: it appears to be compatible with wide loaders or footpegs, something the Kickback appears to block.


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## anthony_coley (Jul 15, 2005)

Yes, I agree, it's nice to have choices..



Val Kleitz said:


> ....
> Anthony: I fully agree with you about the necessity of a centerstand for any serious cargo bike. I built my first one before I even had the bike assembled, because I knew I would need it. It's good that folks who need one have more than one option, yes?
> Cheers!


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## anthony_coley (Jul 15, 2005)

Actually, the KickBack can be used with WideLoaders, but not the foot pegs.



SSSasky said:


> Another thing the RJ has going for it: it appears to be compatible with wide loaders or footpegs, something the Kickback appears to block.


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## mangoman (Oct 25, 2005)

*Point: Val*

...for taking the high road after a couple of wild jabs get thrown.

I really dig Val's stand. And may move to it at some point. It's a beast, and I think worthy of every dollar he's charging for it. You may not agree. Super. Move on.

That said, I had other things to budget for the Goat, and had to make some choices between bars, a stand, hubs, and more. So I went the *less robust route and did the Kickback* for this year of the Goat's abuse, and then blew my wad on other things that I felt would give me a more consistent, daily return on my investment (the Jones bar, the Schmidt SON hub and e-Deluxe light).

Meanwhile, I'm thankful for guys like Val and Devo who are out there "walking the walk." When they say something works, or when they make something out of experience and necessity, it's probably because it needs to be made.


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## pigeonfarmboy (Feb 17, 2009)

I could really go for a video demonstration on the Rolling Jackass stand. I'm not saying I doubt the superiority of the stand I'd just like to further wrap my head around the remote engagement feature. I'm really not too smitten with the Kickback thus far.


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## Val Kleitz (Feb 4, 2009)

pigeonfarmboy: You are 100% correct; a video would be a marvellous aid to explaining all this, and it has been on the "to do" list for a while. You may give me the final incentive to hook up with someone who has a proper camera. Once it has been accomplished, I will post here. Stay tuned.


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## SelfPropelledDevo (Oct 2, 2005)

Val Kleitz said:


> pigeonfarmboy: You are 100% correct; a video would be a marvellous aid to explaining all this, and it has been on the "to do" list for a while. You may give me the final incentive to hook up with someone who has a proper camera. Once it has been accomplished, I will post here. Stay tuned.


a digital camera on Video mode
youtube
and embed the link in a post

that would work awesome!

even a cell phone video, transfer to your computer via bluetooth 
post to youtube
then embed the html in the mtbr post
that would work too.


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## pigeonfarmboy (Feb 17, 2009)

Yeah even if you want to send me the video file I can put it up on youtube for you. Doesn't need to be anything fancy or long. Just showing the engagement of the stand will help people understand how it works. Does the lever just drop the stand or does it actually engage with the throw of the lever?


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## Val Kleitz (Feb 4, 2009)

Okay, okay, I actually got my buddy Reo to demonstrate while I tried to learn how to use the video feature on my spiffy new camera. You will find the results at the end of the Flickr set here: http://tinyurl.com/aqxfvx Forgive the rudimentary nature of these; I will try to get a longer, nicely edited video with audio explanations up at some time in the near future. For now, I hope these make things a bit more understandable. Pigeonfarmboy: if you really want to put this up on Youtube, that's cool, but probably not necessary at this point. Up to you. Thanks for the offer, either way.


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## pigeonfarmboy (Feb 17, 2009)

Thanks for taking the time to make the video. I think this really gives potential customers a clear understanding of the advantage to your stand.


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## SelfPropelledDevo (Oct 2, 2005)

very cool stand!
as posted above... no doubt, the video lends itself to better understanding.
if you could get a video together, etc...
and show examples of typical situations, it would definitely help your pocket book...
thinking that "the light bulb would go on" when people would see it in action.
especially for those folks who are carrying their kids 
in that light... your center stand would be somewhat of a piece of Safety Equipment.

perhaps a Crash Test Dummy-esq video would drive the point.

awesome stand!

my initial thought, would be to change the deployment lever from a brake lever, to a thumb lever, if the ratios would allow. bcz, a thumb lever (old style friction type), or bar-con (you know, those bar end shifters that are often found on touring bikes), is much easier to adapt to a handle bar, give more options, etc...

peace...d


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## Val Kleitz (Feb 4, 2009)

Devo: Yep, I will probably let the Bike Hugger help me with a more thorough video - he seems to be a fiend for such stuff. As for the deployment lever, the cable pull is crucial, and no shift levers pull enough. I definitely understand the need to keep more bar space free, which is why I use a BMX mini lever; they actually pull a lot of cable, they take up very little space, and they have hinged clamps, so that you need not remove everything on the bar to install them. Someday I'll actually post a "dashboard " picture of my rig - there are many controls up there, and the centerstand lever kind of blends in at this point. Believe me, I tried many different levers before sorting out the final best choices (there are more than one, but they're all BMX minis). Ride on!


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## pigeonfarmboy (Feb 17, 2009)

superjohnny said:


> Anyone who spends $350 on a kickstand ought to have their head examined.


Been told that before. So I got one of the Rolling Jackass stands in the mail yesterday and got it installed.

I have expressed my distaste for the Xtracycle Kickback centerstand because it's just not a great design. Although the Kickback does fit even with wideloaders on, reaching the stand to deploy it is just a ridiculous experience. Another negative aspect of the Kickback is that it's noisy. Not certain if it's the spring in the tether or the plugs that go into the frame but one of those rattles around while riding and it's annoying. Maybe I'm being too harsh but I really don't think this piece is worth the $150 price tag. If the Kickback had a cable-actuated deployment feature you could overlook the noise and price issues. The kickstand that comes on the complete Big Dummy is more effective for everyday use. When loaded down I think using Devo's "lay it on it's side" method is probably the most economical and valid choice.

Is the Rolling Jackass worth $350?

I was skeptical as many of you are and I can honestly say that I'm happy with my purchase. I have the fabrication skills and means to make my own but I figure it would take a full day+ to source all parts and material and make a working stand of my own. I consider my time too valuable and feel supporting small businesses is very important.

I think that some might have trouble finding a spot on their bars for the deployment lever but I was able to fit mine with 3 lights mounted on the bar still. (photos to come)

The RJ is quiet! When coming off the stand and during riding you don't hear a peep. Installation is super easy. I was done within 30 minutes using simple tools.

My only real gripe with the RJ is the spring that holds the stand up when riding is a little weak. When going over curbs, there's enough force that bounces the stand almost to the point of hitting the ground. Without having tried a stronger spring this may make the deployment too difficult for the mini-bmx lever to handle it's job.

It's definitely a well thought-out product from someone that understands cargo bikes. I'm a big fan of utility and the Rolling Jackass definitely delivers. I do understand however that the price of admission is not for everyone. If you're on the fence like I was, take the plunge you won't regret it.


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## SelfPropelledDevo (Oct 2, 2005)

laying the BD on the WideLoaders has become my fav method.
albeit i don't have kids to load.

the other method, is to use a curb

???

how do you use a curb to keep a BD upright?

put the Dummy parallel to the curb, close
turn the cranks backwards, until the pedal touches the curb, in the rear position
lock the front brake so the dummy does not roll. (i do this by either turning in the outboard adj knob on Avid Mechs, or simply use a rubber band to hold the front brake lever in)
now your BD should not move forward, or rearward
weight should be on the rear pedal

i do the above move with WideLoaders attached, usually grocery shopping using BOB trailer bags.

this postioning, is not completely straight up and down, nor is it totally stable.
i position the bike (drive side to the curb)
with a slight lean into the curb
positioned so that if the bike were to slip, it would slide onto the WideLoader (and hopefully not fall over)

load bike starting with the curb side first (right hand side, drive side)
this way, the bike is still upright, even if it slips a little. it will probably come to rest on the WideLoader. (the cargo weight goes into the curb)
now load the left side (non drive side)
unlock front brake
get on bike (load left side, unlock brake, get on bike... all done from the left side... probably in the street as compared to being on the sidewalk, or in a planter, whatever the curb is that you'd be using)

get on bike, and ride away. left hand merge into traffic, etc...

you can utilize parking blocks, etc... anything with a ledge around the height of the WideLoaders.
in fact... as you use your BD & WL's, you may find yourself at times, riding close in the gutter with a WL floating just inches over the sidewalk.
*this is potentially dangerous*
soon you will develop an eye for how much height is required to float a WL over something

whenever i see small ledges, i often use them to lay the bike upon, as if a "docking station"

those little islands that are in parking lots, etc... they all become targets of "parking opportunity"
especially if they are close to the door of a store, and they have some kind of metal bollard/signage at the end. often they are near the shopping cart corral. in fact, there is often a thin space, almost as if purposefully designed for a Dummy and WideLoaders. that is... there is a thin space between the actual metal shopping cart corral and the parking lot island (often with landscaping). so park there! cable your dummy to the corral, its right there where the shopping carts are anyways! uber convenience. and the curb of the island provides a spot to keep your dummy upright.

peace...d


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## pigeonfarmboy (Feb 17, 2009)

Check out post #12 for my Rolling Jackass first impression. (Not sure why it was placed up there)


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## Val Kleitz (Feb 4, 2009)

pigeonfarmboy: Many thanks for the kind words; glad you like it.
Devo: I use that same pedal bracing technique, but only when I'm riding. I pull up next to a curb at a stoplight and backpedal until the curb side pedal rests on the curb. At this point I am standing with most of my weight on the curb, with the pedal between my boot and the concrete, gently holding the bike upright. This places almost no load on the pedal spindle at all. I developed this approach, of course, as a result of having essentially no trackstand skills whatsoever. Oh, well. It really works,though, and makes for quick starts on the green.


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## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

For a number of reasons I decided to pick up a Xtracycle Kickback, the main being that it supposedly provides stability while loading and unloading the kids. Well, I like Xtracycle and all, but I'm not exactly bowled over by this product. In fact, it seems to have many issues that I wouldn't expect from a 140$ kickstand. 

I had problems with the chainline, the fit and installation, but the most glaring problem was how low the legs hung while in the upright position. I'm not sure what the folks at Xtracycle were thinking here, but a kickstand should be pretty well out of the way when folded up, not be a curb feeler. The only solution I found was to grind down the stopper on the top of the kickstand. Now, it folds up to where it should have been in the first place.

Just when I thought I had resolved all the issues, the Kickback had to add insult to injury: when deployed, this thing is anything but stable! The aluminum legs shift and buckle under the weight of the bike, and the stand will suddenly retract with even the slightest nudge forward. That's not really the type of stability I was looking for! 

Anyway, maybe I'm not giving it a fair chance. I'll ride with it this week and then post a follow up. And maybe some other kickback owners could throw me some improvement ideas!

P.S. I will give someone a million doll hairs to tell me what the little caps on the end of the axle shafts are for. Are they just extras in case they fall off the legs?!


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## anotherbrian (Mar 18, 2005)

Hmmm, I have no complaints on mine (bought ~1 year ago). Is the stopper you ground down a separate part that is attached to the kickstand (it looks like it in your pic), or is it a tube that is welded on? On mine it is a welded-on tube that was painted with the rest of the stand. I don't get so close to curbs that I'd drag mine (I'd bash a pedal by then), and I've never had a problem dragging it while leaning.

I've not had any tipping problems either ... my ~50# son climbs on the bike without assistance and isn't particularly elegant in doing so. I need to make an effort to get the bike off the stand, particularly when loaded. It may be I have my foot extensions further down than yours creating a greater angle between the stand and ground, and my bike is usually tail heavy (heavy check lock in the bags) so it stays planted.

I do think the stand is awfully expensive for what it is, but as others have said, it is indispensable (and a whole lot cheaper than the others).



Sizzler said:


> For a number of reasons I decided to pick up a Xtracycle Kickback, the main being that it supposedly provides stability while loading and unloading the kids. Well, I like Xtracycle and all, but I'm not exactly bowled over by this product. In fact, it seems to have many issues that I wouldn't expect from a 140$ kickstand.
> 
> I had problems with the chainline, the fit and installation, but the most glaring problem was how low the legs hung while in the upright position. I'm not sure what the folks at Xtracycle were thinking here, but a kickstand should be pretty well out of the way when folded up, not be a curb feeler. The only solution I found was to grind down the stopper on the top of the kickstand. Now, it folds up to where it should have been in the first place.
> 
> ...


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## Cargo Donkey (Feb 7, 2019)

*DIY Centre stand for Surly Big Dummy (Under £40)*

Hey there, i've recently cobbled together a centre stand for my Big Dummy with bits found on the internet and a stand from an old 1970s Vespa PX (you can buy these new).
Main parts of the build were 3x U-bolts for car exhausts, 6mm aluminium plate, the Vespa stand, and a bungee cord.

Like everyone here, I couldn't stomach spending that much on a RJ, so I'd encourage anyone with a basic understanding of using drill and screwing bolts together to have a go!

Check out this short vid on Youtube that gives a snapshot of the process.






Ultimately, the thing is very SOLID , doesn't rattle and it's very simple and easy to use.


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