# LEAP of faith? Fatty cargo...



## OldschoolReloaded (Nov 20, 2012)

Morning everyone....
Well it's one of those sleepless mornings and so I decided to do an early post on something I have been trying to figure out.

I want a cargo bike and would like to get a Big Dummy, but it is not only the price that holds me back. The Big Dummy, according to Surly, runs best with 26" rims, but has trouble with fat tires. 
Right from a Surly spew: _The largest tire size designed to fit inside the Dummy frame is a 2.5" (think Schwalbe Big Apple/Fat Frank 2.35" or Maxxis Hookworm 2.5")_ I wanted a 29er and the tire width would be 3 inches.

Therefore, I am thinking about the LEAP from XtraCycle. I wanted to do a 29er using the LEAP, so the next step is selecting a frame for the front part. XtraCycle has a compatibility guide: http://xtracycle.com/content/manuals/xc-leap-compatibility-2016.pdf

This diagram shows the part of the requirements. 








So there is that...and then this:








So picking a frame is kinda tough. I would have to actually go to bike shops and measure frames, which is time consuming to say the least. Do any of you know of a 29er frame in steel that meets the above requirements? I figure that since many of you already own 29ers then it would be easy to get measurements.

Thanks


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Maybe this is helpful... I used to be a wheelbuilder for a shop that sold 90% fat bikes and was a big Surly dealer. The shop owner had me build a set of wheels for a Big Dummy he used around the neighborhood. The rear was a 26" Rabbit Hole and the front was a Marge Lite. He had a Pugs fork on the bike. Rear tire ended up being a 26x3" Knard. Front was 3.8" Knard. Bike looked pretty awesome and with all the cargo stuff on the back, you hardly noticed they weren't the same.

An Even Bigger Dummy | Blog | Surly Bikes

Kinda like this.


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## Volsung (Nov 24, 2011)

I don't know how the Leap works but keep in mind the taller the wheel the higher the weight is held on your bike. That will change handling.

Also there may be a full fat dummy in the works. Ya know, if you want to wear down more expensive tires and don't want fenders to fit anymore.


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## OldschoolReloaded (Nov 20, 2012)

A 29er was my first thought, but I may just go with the BD after all. Overall diameter of the 26+ Knard is just over 28 inches, where the overall diameter of the 29er Knard is just over 30 inches. The 26+ Knard is just a bit over 3 inches wide which should fit the BD. So the 26+ Knard should be fine....anyway, the LEAP is becoming way to much work to put together. I don't need the tire to real fat, just looking for something close and 3 inches si not bad. It's better than getting into bad geometry issues.


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

I've seen a couple one-off big dummy fatties, one used the same offset as a Pugsley. I would like to ride one for a spell, but they may not necessarily be the best of all worlds. It would certainly be heavy, especially all loaded up. Probably comfy, a great all weather commuter if you typically haul a bunch of stuff, but how would it handle in the snow? Would it just sink? Would it be a reasonable bike to use for bikepacking or is it better to pack less? I've also liked the xtracycle stuff in the past, but it can be flexy. Perhaps the Leap is better, I really don't know. In any case, I'd like to see what you put together so post some pics if you figure it out.


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## benda (Jul 3, 2014)

I think you're going to have a lot of flexibility with the Leap. Compared to the freeradical (which xtracycle advertised as fitting pretty much any bike) the Leap can accommodate for 1/2 inch shorter chainstays and 1.75 inch longer chainstays.

The front attachment plate from the freeradical works up to 63.5mm at clamp point so the leap will be more flexible there too, giving you a bit extra spacing with the included plate. And they say you can have a custom plate fabricated if needed.

I have a freeradical on a 56cm 700C Long Haul Trucker and the front attachment plate is just wide enough to fit. IIRC the FR is bolted aft of the chainstay bridge and the bolt falls pretty much in the middle of adjustable range (if that makes any sense).

http://xtracycle.com/content/manuals/xc-freeradical-2013-compatibility-guide.pdf
Front Attachment Plate (FAP) - Xtracycle


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## OldschoolReloaded (Nov 20, 2012)

Volsung said:


> I don't know how the Leap works but keep in mind the taller the wheel the higher the weight is held on your bike. That will change handling.
> 
> Also there may be a full fat dummy in the works. Ya know, if you want to wear down more expensive tires and don't want fenders to fit anymore.


Thanks...
Full fat dummy...where did you hear that?


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## Volsung (Nov 24, 2011)

I saw a pic on someone's phone. He said it was a prototype. I'm in Minneapolis and QBP is just down the road, so it's probably legit. People have been asking Surly for one for a while and if they figure they can make money off something they'll make it.

The BB seemed even higher with the big tires. I know some people ride single track with their cargo bikes but I think that's stupid to plan their geometry around. Not to mention any log over will make you teeter totter on your big ring.


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## OldschoolReloaded (Nov 20, 2012)

Volsung
I am not a single track rider, unless it is basic trail riding, but I agree with you as I have seen many pictures of a BD bottom bracket beat to hell. The only reason I would be interested in the fat BD is ride.
Now that said, I was thinking of putting the Extraterrestrials on the current model BD. They seem to have a lot of cushion and are resistant to punctures. Although I have yet to read how they do with goats heads.

Thanks for the reply..
OSRL


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

This is the locale I've seen the one-offs I mentioned in a previous post. Saw them years ago and I'm still waiting to see a production run. I would love to see a big dummy pugsley or wednesday, which is possibly more likely. I don't know about you, but I'm not holding my breathe.


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## OldschoolReloaded (Nov 20, 2012)

dbhammercycle said:


> This is the locale I've seen the one-offs I mentioned in a previous post. Saw them years ago and I'm still waiting to see a production run. I would love to see a big dummy pugsley or wednesday, which is possibly more likely. I don't know about you, but I'm not holding my breathe.


Don't be too sure... I have a feeling that your dreams may be reality. So much so that I may just wait a bit before going the skinny BD.


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## jamiedyer (Jun 24, 2008)

Here is a Big Fat Dummy 

DSCN3110 by Jamie Dyer, on Flickr

DSCN3101 by Jamie Dyer, on Flickr

Jamie


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

Explain yourself.... is that an upside down skate deck, SS?

That looks nice, lovely even, please provide the deets...


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## jamiedyer (Jun 24, 2008)

*My Big Fat Dummy*

Its a 2008 fitted with a symmetrical Pugsley fork, 80mm rim on a Hope rear hub, running an Endomorph tyre. I also have a Pugsley so have a few old Endo's in the loft. They are better than the others at both road/off road. A good compromise. 
The rear is a 65mm rim fitted with a hookworm tyre, which actually comes up pretty big on this size rim, this is running an Alfine 8 speed hub and allows it all to work. This is super tight in the back and needs either a singlespeed :eekster: or a geared hub as there is no clearance at all for even a two speed cassette 
It also has a flight deck as well as the skateboard as my son has the back seat. Has flightdeck, U tubes, magic carpet etc. 
I also have the standard fork that goes back on come spring, along with some 2.2 Marathons as we do some touring and running these wheels and tyres for any real distance other than a couple of days out, then they wear you down. Fun for winter and the dirt roads up here but to get the best out of all the fat tyres, or the advantage is to run them at low pressures. My Pugsley runs around 12psi up here and that is off road, try a big hill on the tarmac with a 6 year old, a load of gear and a set of heavy wheels and tyres running at even 18psi and things get heavy quickly :nono: 
At least it makes my singlespeed Pugsley seem amazingly light and fast when I get back on it 

Jamie

DSCN3111 by Jamie Dyer, on Flickr

DSC_1609 by Jamie Dyer, on Flickr


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## OldschoolReloaded (Nov 20, 2012)

Now dat's fat!


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## Volsung (Nov 24, 2011)

Surly just Instagramed a pic of a fat dummy. Details Saturday, they say.


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## OldschoolReloaded (Nov 20, 2012)

When I commented above, to not be too sure, I had just received an email from Kate at Surley in regards to a fat cargo bike, she responded.

_Interesting question and one that comes up from time to time! There will be some new things coming this year, so keep your eyes on surlybikes.com and our Facebook page._

I did not expect the news to come so soon, but I will await the Saturday news release with excitement. First pictures should come here first I would think. I for one will be one of the early owners if it is as good as I think it will be.

OSRL


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm all in for a fat Dummy. I have some 3.8 Knards that need a home.


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## Flying_Scotsman (Jul 12, 2011)

NYrr496 said:


> I'm all in for a fat Dummy. I have some 3.8 Knards that need a home.


Me too....

Dear Surly Santa....


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## Yoreskillz (Feb 10, 2011)

Also all in for a Big FAT Dummy! Eager to hear the beans hit the floor in the reveal/debut tomorrow.


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## Volsung (Nov 24, 2011)

NYrr496 said:


> I'm all in for a fat Dummy. I have some 3.8 Knards that need a home.


Based on the BFL in front you may want to sell those puny 3.8s and get 4.8s. Or just keep the BFLs because they're awesome.


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## Yoreskillz (Feb 10, 2011)

Dreams DO come true!!! Introducing Big Fat Dummy | Blog | Surly Bikes


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## OldschoolReloaded (Nov 20, 2012)

*OMG...fat is where it is at...*


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## OldschoolReloaded (Nov 20, 2012)

*MoRe PiCs*











































:thumbsup:


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## OldschoolReloaded (Nov 20, 2012)

The above pics are the old BD and the new BDF over each other.

I have read through the info and am confused. Can you NOT use a Rohloff??

OSRL


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## Flying_Scotsman (Jul 12, 2011)

OldschoolReloaded said:


> Can you NOT use a Rohloff??


I'd say, yes you can use one, it will be of the 10mm QR XXL variety....


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## Volsung (Nov 24, 2011)

there's more discussion here http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/surly-big-fat-dummy-1029378.html but I'm not sure how many ride a cargo bike and how many just like it because it's fat.


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## Mr Pink57 (Jul 30, 2009)

This was released at the Freewheel Bike Midtown Bike Expo today, we were able to speak with Product Manager Adam from Surly about it and ask really anything. I was also able to take it on an extensive ride and really really liked it. The bike handled like my Ogre really. I did not even notice it was a long tail. Very easy to make a U-Turn.

What I do know:
Has a mount for a kickstand on the non-drive side, I do not know if this was standard on the original.
The green is the production color.
The gearing is 2x10, can be run with 11 speed if wanted.
197mm rear spaced thru axle, has an adapter to run 190 QR if wanted
The dropout is non tension standard drop out so all you have to do is loosen a QR or bolts to drop the wheel out if the bags were loaded
The top deck is wider, I'd say a lot wider. It will fit the standard accessories that mount to the top.
It will not fit wide loaders at this time, the rear end is too wide for them I was told.
Will fit all tire sizes up to 5in width and from the pictures Adam's personal bike had 29 dirt wizards.
The big is torsionally stiffer than the standard big dummy due to different tubes.
There are no motor options at this time when I asked.
BB is higher.
The price posted above is confirmed.
Will come with larry and nate, reasoning for this was if someone wanted it more road they could replace one tire if more off road again replace one tire.

Another piece of info I was given was the new standard big dummy will get a lot of these upgrades next year, so it will have anything mount cage options on the fork.

And in other bike news I was told the ECR is getting a complete makeover and and a new trailer is being made with a telescoping attachment to adjust its length (2 years out).


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

Oh, they finally did it, bless them so much. I see the release date is April? in the blog post. If this turns out to be a Christmas buy-in for an April Fool's punchline, I will burn down their house...

So much awesome. I will have to take a trip to Freewheel on the Greenway for a peek at the bohemoth. I just wanna touch the rear wheel a little while someone slaps me in face so I know it's real.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Volsung said:


> Based on the BFL in front you may want to sell those puny 3.8s and get 4.8s. Or just keep the BFLs because they're awesome.


I'll just put em in stock. I have a ridiculous pile of tires.


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## geiranders (Jan 25, 2005)

Mr Pink57 said:


> Another piece of info I was given was the new standard big dummy will get a lot of these upgrades next year, so it will have anything mount cage options on the fork.


Thanks for the info! Just to be clear: How did you interpret «a lot of these updates» regarding the standard Big Dummy? Are Surly working on a frame update for the regular Big Dummy with the same rear frame design - with the stiffer truss design, only a bit narrower? Or is it just cable routing for dropper post, fork mounts and smaller details?


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## Mr Pink57 (Jul 30, 2009)

geiranders said:


> Thanks for the info! Just to be clear: How did you interpret «a lot of these updates» regarding the standard Big Dummy? Are Surly working on a frame update for the regular Big Dummy with the same rear frame design - with the stiffer truss design, only a bit narrower? Or is it just cable routing for dropper post, fork mounts and smaller details?


Yes as I was told the frame will have a redesign, think of it like the new troll just a big dummy. So it will have the new troll fork and a 44mm headtube. I was not told specifically if the standard will have a torsionally stronger frame like this one does.


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## deserthawk (May 28, 2015)

*Xtracycle Leaps Arrived on Valentines Day*

After a two year wait, the Xtracycle Leap Bolt-On Kit is finally on US soil and ready for delivery. The Xtracycle CEO and Founder, Ross Evans announced the launch of the new product line on February 14th, 2017 at high noon EST (Valentines Day). One minute after twelve I was placing my order to be one of the first to review this much awaited cargo extension kit.










First off, this is NOT a light weight bolt-on kit at 11 pounds. It does, however more than satisfy the complaints directed at the previous Xtracycle kit (Free Radical) of a swaying tail when under load. The Leap is STIFF and I mean really stiff. It is a whole lot stiffer than even a Surly Big Dummy frameset. I personally own two Free Radical conversions, a Sun Atlas Cargo Bike and an Electric Big Dummy and the Leap is much stiffer under load and handles like a regular bike. I spent all of last evening building up this test bike and most of today riding it. My conclusion is that it is definitely a winner. The kit will handle up to a 29+ wheel/tire combination so Knards are not a problem. I put a Velocity Dually with a 29x3 Knard on the Leap as a test and had at lease 1/2" of room to the rear. I did have to add some 1 1/4" pieces of cut handlebar to the bottom of the V racks to get enough elevation for the deck to clear the top of the Knards. I believe the new Xtracycle V racks are taller to compensate for this but I was using some existing racks so I had to DIY it. The biggest plus that I see in this new long-tail kit is the ability to break it down for shipping on planes or buses while touring. As an example, it cost me $420 just for freight to ship a Big Dummy frameset to the Virgin Islands. The Leap kit cost $60 for shipping. A complete bicycle with S&S couplers and a Leap kit could fit into two regulation checked baggage and save big $$$ on oversea flights to exotic lands. Just sayin' 
Here are a few more photos showing the build. This was nothing special, just a Nashbar steel 29er frame with 1x10 11-42 Cassette and Shimano SLX Components. There is a 180 disc rotor to the rear and a 203 in the front for sure stops on radical downhill runs.





































11-42 Cassette - That 42t cog works wonders on these 14% grade island hills.










Plenty of room in the back for wide tires. These are WTB Vulpine 2.1 but the Surly Knards fit equally as well.










Here's the new chain roller attachment from Xtracycle. It only costs $25 and it works great for getting that long return chain run under control.



















Bottom line.... I like this kit. It functions better than any other longtail I have ridden dedicated frame or DIY. It would also make a solid and sturdy platform for an E-Cargo Bike. Five stars. The only drawback is the weight issue but when hauling a couple hundred pounds of stuff who's worrying about a lousy 10 pounds. Somethings you just can't scrimp on.


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## deserthawk (May 28, 2015)

*Surly ECR Rohloff Xtracycle Leap*


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## steveski (Jun 4, 2013)

Bumping an old thread because I am in the process of deciding my first long tail build.

Desert, do you have an update on how things have gone over the last two years? I'm pretty sold on the leap, as I have two different mountain bikes I'd like to use it with (29" and 26"). I've gone back and forth deciding between a big dummy and the Leap conversion. For versatility and because I have multiple bikes I love already I think the leap is the way to go...


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## deserthawk (May 28, 2015)

steveski said:


> Bumping an old thread because I am in the process of deciding my first long tail build.
> 
> Desert, do you have an update on how things have gone over the last two years? I'm pretty sold on the leap, as I have two different mountain bikes I'd like to use it with (29" and 26"). I've gone back and forth deciding between a big dummy and the Leap conversion. For versatility and because I have multiple bikes I love already I think the leap is the way to go...


Hi,
Yes, I ride the Surly ECR with Xtracycle Leap conversion as well as this new "Rasta" bike, a Big Dummy. They ride equally well but the Xtraqcycle Leap has the advantage of being able to break down for transportation. My ECR is fitted with S&S couplers so the entire bike fits within a 40" long box when split. This leaves me with the Leap extension, front triangle and the rear chain stay section. The Leap is just as stable and rigid as any dedicated long-tail and all the new Xtracycle bags fit perfectly. The "Lion of Judah" Ethiopian flag was custom stiched over a standard Xtracycle rain cover. This bike gets a lot of comments in the Caribbean. Hope this helps.
Deserthawk


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## steveski (Jun 4, 2013)

deserthawk said:


> Hi,
> Yes, I ride the Surly ECR with Xtracycle Leap conversion as well as this new "Rasta" bike, a Big Dummy. They ride equally well but the Xtraqcycle Leap has the advantage of being able to break down for transportation. My ECR is fitted with S&S couplers so the entire bike fits within a 40" long box when split. This leaves me with the Leap extension, front triangle and the rear chain stay section. The Leap is just as stable and rigid as any dedicated long-tail and all the new Xtracycle bags fit perfectly. The "Lion of Judah" Ethiopian flag was custom stiched over a standard Xtracycle rain cover. This bike gets a lot of comments in the Caribbean. Hope this helps.
> Deserthawk


That's an awesome bike. Thanks for the info.

Is your ECR a 29" wheel? Do you appreciate any big differences between 26"/29" when loaded with cargo (particularly with items on the deck (thinking of kids in my situation).

I don't think I could go wrong with a Big dummy but the Xtracycle leap looks appealing for using my current bikes, versatility for transport, as well as compatibility with all the xtracycle goodies.


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## Widget (Sep 14, 2008)

As a leap owner used for hauling kids around I will add a couple comments. I first had it set up on a salsa mamasita. Maybe a questionable configuration given the extra stress on the carbon seat stays. The clamp area was all ALU, but I wasn't ready to screw up that frame so I bought some sub $200 special Triace frame on ebay. The salsa was laterally stiff and handled well, but the HTA and fork combo I had was a little twitchy. Switching to the Triace, the steering angle is much improved, but wow, the frame is a lateral nightmare. I'm almost afraid to ride with the kids it's so wobbly. I'm now on the hunt for a super beefy option that has a standard chainstay yoke. 


I also think there's some merit in a 26" rear wheel to keep the cog lower. If i could find an old trek 69'er I'd be in heaven. Love the concept, but I'm a little bummed that the swap to the cheap frame didn't work out. I guess you get what you pay for.


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