# Anyone else ride double-black trails on their modern hardtail?



## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Just curious to see what others are doing on their modern hardtails. I assume most visitors to this forum have been riding hardtails for a long time. Man, I can't believe how capable my new one is. Now that bike manufacturers have realized that hardtails don't need to have stupid geometry, I'm finding that I have trouble finding trails that I "can't" ride on it. I'm curious if y'all have found limitations or anything you wouldn't ride, simply because it's a hardtail. For me with my Honzo ESD, the only conditions that I've found limiting are high-speed chunk (unavoidable, sustained rock or root gardens) that are at a pitch where high speed is normal.

As for double-black trails, we have 4-5 that I think would fit the bill. They are extremely steep with numerous rolls and other technical features, and are not really "high speed" trails, because of how steep they are. Since I got my ESD, I have done two of the milder ones, and didn't really have any trouble. There is a third trail that I want to try, and have been analyzing whether or not I can do it on the hardtail when riding it on my enduro bike. There is a drop/gap with a pretty harsh landing, that I probably won't do, but other than that it has a section with two gnarly rock rolls in a row. They are steep enough and don't have g-outs at the bottom, that I don't think my rear suspension is really doing that much as far as an advantage goes.

Anyhow, tell your tales of riding the gnar on your hardtails. Pictures encouraged!


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## nebuz (Aug 19, 2017)

It's winter here at the moment, so I'm a bit limited in terms of terrain, but I'm finding that I can ride almost anything I can ride on my duallie with my El Roy. With that said I am a bit hesitant on some gaps (especially that are running slow because it's winter) or big drops and definitely slow it down if it gets chunky or fast/rough. Whether anything I ride counts a proper double black? Dunno xD


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I can't say that I'm really comfortable on *true* double black terrain on any bike. I've only encountered true double black terrain a couple times, as well. I've certainly encountered trails labeled double black that might be labeled as blue in other areas, though, so that's why I'm qualifying my statements. I'm not comfortable with the consequences for failure that are usually present on that stuff. Now, I do ride black level terrain all the time, and walk individual features that fall outside my skills or comfort zone. That includes on my hardtail.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Harold said:


> I can't say that I'm really comfortable on *true* double black terrain on any bike. I've only encountered true double black terrain a couple times, as well. I've certainly encountered trails labeled double black that might be labeled as blue in other areas, though, so that's why I'm qualifying my statements. I'm not comfortable with the consequences for failure that are usually present on that stuff. Now, I do ride black level terrain all the time, and walk individual features that fall outside my skills or comfort zone. That includes on my hardtail.


I suppose "double black" can be a relative term. We have a number of trails locally labeled as such, and they are nowhere close to what I'd call a double black - they are simply steepish trails.

I've ridden in BC on quite a few trips and when they say "double black" they're not joking.

I guess I draw a line of distinction between black and double black in that double blacks have lots of sections where, once you drop in, you can't stop until you're through the section. So a lot of extreme steepness with tech, in other words.

Oddly perhaps, but I find that these types of trails are not as bad on a modern hardtail as some would think, provided you've got appropriate tires and brakes.

Single black trails tend to allow for higher speeds since they aren't quite as steep, and the speed combined with roughness makes for a worse time on the hardtail. Of course, you could always just ride slower.?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

cookieMonster said:


> I guess I draw a line of distinction between black and double black in that double blacks have lots of sections where, once you drop in, you can't stop until you're through the section. So a lot of extreme steepness with tech, in other words.


I put the bar a bit higher than just the grade. And not just any tech counts.

Sure, you have to be committed, but there's also other factors like narrowness (often with a great deal of exposure), a VERY high level of skill to pull off certain mandatory moves (which could be anything from uphill ledges to gap jumps to very, very gnarly tech puzzles), very high consequences for failure (height of a possible fall being a big factor here), and oftentimes the grade of the trail is just another factor among multiple other ones here.

I mean, sure, a near vertical rock slab might hit double black territory but it's going to need to be very big (increasing the skill and a certain level of fearlessness/recklessness required, but also increasing the consequences for failure). So it's more than just the grade, imo, that puts a trail into true double black territory.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

^^^By those criteria, 5 of our trails are double black.😉

It would seem that most in this forum are uninterested.😢


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

cookieMonster said:


> ^^^By those criteria, 5 of our trails are double black.😉
> 
> It would seem that most in this forum are uninterested.😢


sad. I do enjoy modern hardtails on hard terrain.

locally, there are some optional double black features on trails that would otherwise classify as black diamond. there's a great big gap jump that rates a great big nope from me. thankfully it's optional. not quite as much that rates as true double black trail, though. the one we have, I really want to ride, but the climb to get up there is pretty big and I haven't been able to convince my usual crew to go ride it with me yet. my understanding of that one is that it gets its double black rating because of sections of very, very technical rock gardens, but I don't know how it'll compare to other trails I've been on that rated a true double black.

I might wind up doing it solo if I can't get my riding buddies (who usually do at least one Type 2 fun sort of ride every year with me) to come along. but I'd rather have the company when I push myself like that.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I'm not sure there are any double blacks around me. But I ride my rigid on the single blacks around me. 2017/18 Kona Units so probably doesn't qualify as a "modern" hardtail. Most of these blacks just have some tech and bigger climbs, not really all that steep. I did ride one where I was very carefully picking my way down through the big rock gardens and walked a little, lowered my saddle but found it wouldn't go much lower than it already was. Currently my 2017 SS has a dropper; 2018 geared does not. Mostly keep the rubber on the ground.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

A lot of good hardtail insites here. Tom Bradshaw did all his pink bike ride/posts on the hardtail that month and it was interesting to see him the only one on a hardtail riding black diamonds while everyone else is on full sus.



https://m.pinkbike.com/news/video-lessons-learned-from-30-days-on-a-hardtail-with-tom-bradshaw.html


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

IMO big doubles are almost a different category. Scary, for sure — and require skill and commitment + consequences if you fail. However, most of the time they are mind over matter. There are some doubles and drops on our trails, but none of them are ridiculous. The main reason I think they qualify as double blacks is the rock/root web/gardens/puzzles on very steep terrain and ultra steep rock rolls with cliffs on one or both sides. 🤣

Honestly, I do very few rides with other people. I only do these trails on my hardtail because I’ve cleaned them many times on my enduro bike. I also don’t get in a hurry— I just roll into everything in a very controlled manner.

Part of why I take my hardtail on these trails is to prove that it can be done. More than once, I’ve been asked by friends and acquaintances “what’s the point in riding a hardtail?” — kind of in a skeptical tone of voice. In actuality, I think I could be happy with just one modern hardtail as my only bike, as they are so versatile.

A bunch of years ago I was putting on my knee and shin guards getting ready to drop into Ladies Only in North Vancouver, which is a legit gnar trail, and this local rolls up on a rigid 29er with 2.2s at most (which must have had atrocious geometry back then) and proceeded to disappear down the trail. I never saw him again, and I was on a 7” travel freeride bike. Made me reevaluate my outlook on things. There is no easy way down that trail. What we have now — man, these are very capable bikes.


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## PTCbiker (Sep 15, 2020)

I’ve had my Big Al at Coldwater mountain one time and I won’t do it again. Bomb Dog is a 3 miles long chunky fast downhill. I normally don’t need a break but took a couple because they speed and bouncing got a little out of hand on the HT. With more experience I could probably control it better but a trail like that is custom made for my FS rig. 

There are no climbs around me that aren’t doable on my Big Al.


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## natas1321 (Nov 4, 2017)

I prefer to ride any new trails green, blue, black, double blacks on my hardtail the first couple of times as it's the bike I am most comfortable on. 

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

singletrackmack said:


> A lot of good hardtail insites here. Tom Bradshaw did all his pink bike ride/posts on the hardtail that month and it was interesting to see him the only one on a hardtail riding black diamonds while everyone else is on full sus.
> 
> 
> 
> https://m.pinkbike.com/news/video-lessons-learned-from-30-days-on-a-hardtail-with-tom-bradshaw.html


Not altogether different from some of my experiences.

I think I've noticed a few other subtle differences between riding a HT and a FS, too. But then again, I've been riding a modern hardtail exclusively for a bit longer than a month.

I, for one, have always preferred a riding style with more finesse and a HT definitely lets you feel the trail better so you know immediately if you're riding smoothly or not.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

PTCbiker said:


> I've had my Big Al at Coldwater mountain one time and I won't do it again. Bomb Dog is a 3 miles long chunky fast downhill. I normally don't need a break but took a couple because they speed and bouncing got a little out of hand on the HT. With more experience I could probably control it better but a trail like that is custom made for my FS rig.
> 
> There are no climbs around me that aren't doable on my Big Al.


Sounds like something where I need to ride my own HT.


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## Timothy G. Parrish (Apr 13, 2014)

Yes, I do. I've taken a HT down every trail in my general region; WNC, SC, N GA.









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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Not a great picture, but this is from today.?. As you might expect, the picture doesn't do this section justice; it is quite steep. There is a lot more tech that is pretty steep above this, but I couldn't capture it. The whole top half of this trail is like this, but then it mellows out to more of a single black. Since it's relatively slow, steep tech, the hardtail really does a fine job handling it without it seeming too rough or chattery.


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## RideEverything (Jul 25, 2008)

Yep, I ride my Pole Taival on pretty much everything I ride my full suss bike on in my region (Squamish, Whistler, Pemberton).

It's a change of pace and a different challenge on an HT. 

Where I struggle on my HT are the longer really steep technical sections because the back end just bounces around making it very hard to stay in control as the speed picks up. But, that's why I have a fully so I can ride those lines with less worry and more control. 
I only ride those kind of lines on my HT if I'm feeling particularly masochistic towards myself!

I have ridden my HT in the Whistler Bike Park on and off over the years for shits and giggles. I can confidently say that I would ride everything in the bike park except for the trail Goats Gully on my HT. But, I'm even hesitant to ride my DH bike on Goats! It's a very ugly trail!


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## Aquaholic (Jan 13, 2004)

Hardtails on hard trails? Why not?


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

The one thing I always try to remember is that some of the north shore trails where built when the only option was a hard tail. If you search out a video of some of the original trails there are definitely technical and tough, maybe not fast, but technical and tough. That said I watch a lot of the pink bike and vitalMTB WC DH videos and often wonder if you could ride those trails on a HT, and if it would be fun. 

The thing I enjoy about riding rigid on tough trails is that it slows them down, which means more time on the trail and more time to try and find that perfect line. As long as I am not holding people up going too slow I don't think it is an issue for me.

I would love to try a ESD on our local tech trails but I worry it will put me off my rigid.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

rockcrusher said:


> The one thing I always try to remember is that some of the north shore trails where built when the only option was a hard tail. If you search out a video of some of the original trails there are definitely technical and tough, maybe not fast, but technical and tough. That said I watch a lot of the pink bike and vitalMTB WC DH videos and often wonder if you could ride those trails on a HT, and if it would be fun.
> 
> The thing I enjoy about riding rigid on tough trails is that it slows them down, which means more time on the trail and more time to try and find that perfect line. As long as I am not holding people up going too slow I don't think it is an issue for me.
> 
> I would love to try a ESD on our local tech trails but I worry it will put me off my rigid.


Indeed. However, when the North Shore trails were first being built, they were a lot loamier as well, as that was the natural state of the soil, and hordes of riders hadn't come along yet to erode them down to the bedrock and expose all the roots. That said, it was definitely still gnarly terrain, just not as nasty as it would become over the years. As the trails wore in, better and better bikes were needed, lol. Many years ago, I rode one of their hardest trails (GMG), and it was just nuts, not even counting the man-made stunts which were bonkers. The actual trail just went straight down the fall line for almost the entirety; and Mount Fromme is steeeeeeeep. Memories are pretty hazy, but the tread consisted primarily of exposed root tangles, steep rock gardens and rolls, and never ending 2-3 foot drops off roots and boulders where it had eroded away. Apparently, when the trail was first routed, it was all soft loam and you could cruise down the natural sections without near as much fuss.

As for WC DH courses, I'm sure you could make it down one. I did a national level DH race course (actually raced on a borrowed dually though) a long time ago on my dual slalom bike and made it down in one piece. I'm not sure World Cup level DH would be as much fun on a hardtail unless you really slowed down. Those courses tend to be really fast and feature lots of high-frequency chatter as well as big features. I tend to prefer the slower speed, yet very steep tech stuff that requires you to ride slower (and obviously flow trails are fine on a hardtail too).

Don't try an ESD unless you're ready to buy one-- it really isn't fair to compare it to rigid bikes or even most other hardtails, lol.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

cookieMonster said:


> Indeed. However, when the North Shore trails were first being built, they were a lot loamier as well, as that was the natural state of the soil, and hordes of riders hadn't come along yet to erode them down to the bedrock and expose all the roots. That said, it was definitely still gnarly terrain, just not as nasty as it would become over the years. As the trails wore in, better and better bikes were needed, lol. Many years ago, I rode one of their hardest trails (GMG), and it was just nuts, not even counting the man-made stunts which were bonkers. The actual trail just went straight down the fall line for almost the entirety; and Mount Fromme is steeeeeeeep. Memories are pretty hazy, but the tread consisted primarily of exposed root tangles, steep rock gardens and rolls, and never ending 2-3 foot drops off roots and boulders where it had eroded away. Apparently, when the trail was first routed, it was all soft loam and you could cruise down the natural sections without near as much fuss.
> 
> As for WC DH courses, I'm sure you could make it down one. I did a national level DH race course (actually raced on a borrowed dually though) a long time ago on my dual slalom bike and made it down in one piece. I'm not sure World Cup level DH would be as much fun on a hardtail unless you really slowed down. Those courses tend to be really fast and feature lots of high-frequency chatter as well as big features. I tend to prefer the slower speed, yet very steep tech stuff that requires you to ride slower (and obviously flow trails are fine on a hardtail too).
> 
> Don't try an ESD unless you're ready to buy one-- it really isn't fair to compare it to rigid bikes or even most other hardtails, lol.


It is on my list. I feel like it would excel on PNW trails but I also like to ride the skinnies and slow stuff and am unsure how well it would perform there. Eventually bikes will be available again and I will probably pull the trigger on a slack HT. Until then it is a rigid and fat front when I need cush and rigid and 29er wheel when I need speed.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I find myself wanting to ride doubles on a hardtail less as I get older. Mostly because they're higher speed chunk locally. The paradox will handle it though, I don't have any doubt of that.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

rockcrusher said:


> It is on my list. I feel like it would excel on PNW trails but I also like to ride the skinnies and slow stuff and am unsure how well it would perform there. Eventually bikes will be available again and I will probably pull the trigger on a slack HT. Until then it is a rigid and fat front when I need cush and rigid and 29er wheel when I need speed.


We don't have all that much in the way of skinnies, but there are a few on the trails I ride, and I haven't had any problems with them on my ESD. About the only area where I've noticed any slight negatives are in really tight switchback situations, as it is a really long bike (I tried it with the longest chainstay setting for a few rides and immediately went back to the shortest setting). However, going down really steep janky stuff that requires some trialsy handling has not been any problem. I may have been a little happier with a medium frame as opposed to my large, but I'm used to it now. Pay close attention to reach length when you start shopping for a slack HT. They may have overdone the reach a little bit with the ESD. However, it climbs like a dream, despite having a 63 degree HA.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

we'll often ride our DJ bikes on our DH trails just to switch it up. we obviously can't go as fast with almost no suspension and only a rear brake, but we try using the force to go as fast as possible..


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

cookieMonster said:


> We don't have all that much in the way of skinnies, but there are a few on the trails I ride, and I haven't had any problems with them on my ESD. About the only area where I've noticed any slight negatives are in really tight switchback situations, as it is a really long bike (I tried it with the longest chainstay setting for a few rides and immediately went back to the shortest setting). However, going down really steep janky stuff that requires some trialsy handling has not been any problem. I may have been a little happier with a medium frame as opposed to my large, but I'm used to it now. Pay close attention to reach length when you start shopping for a slack HT. They may have overdone the reach a little bit with the ESD. However, it climbs like a dream, despite having a 63 degree HA.


Overdone in which direction? too long or too short?


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

rockcrusher said:


> Overdone in which direction? too long or too short?


Too long. My large frame has a 490mm reach, whereas my aluminum Honzo, size large, had a 475mm reach and I liked that length a little better. Everything else about the ESD is much better though, so I'm not complaining.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

cookieMonster said:


> Too long. My large frame has a 490mm reach, whereas my aluminum Honzo, size large, had a 475mm reach and I liked that length a little better. Everything else about the ESD is much better though, so I'm not complaining.


That's a long reach. The paradox is inline with the Al Honzo (474mm). Actually it's longer than the Lithium I ordered (475). I'd find it a bit too long too, I think.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I rode my hardtail down this today.


0728211126 by Nate, on Flickr


0728211225a by Nate, on Flickr

It got steeeeeepppppp. Clocked the steepest at 40%, and large chunks were 30+%. Lots of loose, wet, janky rocks on those steeps mixed with wet, off-camber, janky roots. There were a couple big, janky drops with iffy landing zones that I was on the edge of attempting, but chose not to given that they were fairly early in the trail and I wanted to survive the whole thing.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Harold said:


> I rode my hardtail down this today.


the whole sign? man, you're a savage...


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## Timothy G. Parrish (Apr 13, 2014)

Harold said:


> I rode my hardtail down this today.
> 
> 
> 0728211126 by Nate, on Flickr
> ...


Nice! Been a while since I've hit Farlow. Definitely impressive to go down it on a HT.

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Timothy G. Parrish said:


> Nice! Been a while since I've hit Farlow. Definitely impressive to go down it on a HT.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


It was fun. Pretty intense on the steeps. No way I was stopping for photos/videos in that stuff.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

cookieMonster said:


> Oddly perhaps, but I find that these types of trails are not as bad on a modern hardtail as some would think, provided you've got appropriate tires and brakes.


I would add the fork to that list. Going steep, you'll be heavy on the fork and want some seriously good damping.

I could certainly see riding steep trails on a hardtail if only I were a couple of decades younger. I see how it would likely work out pretty well, but I just can't take that pounding anymore when doing a drop or g-out.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Also, if you can make it out to WA sometime, I can point you to the good stuff around here.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Curveball said:


> Also, if you can make it out to WA sometime, I can point you to the good stuff around here.


Would love to - I don't know if it's in the cards anytime soon, however. Traveling to ride is hard with two little kids.

I used to go to Beacon in Spokane quite often in my racing days. Other than that, my friends and I would make a beeline directly to Vancouver to ride the Shore and then Whistler. We did a trip once where we went to Nelson, then Van, then Whistler, then Kamloops&#8230;that was a long road trip, let me tell you!

In any case, I'm sure we bypassed a lot of good riding in NW Washington.

As an aside, I know this thread is about hardtails, but I'd primarily be riding my big bike on any trip to the PNW.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I can't say I blame you, as much as I love my paradox... I'll travel with the lithium once it's built.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

I probably rode crazier stuff on my rigid 1990 RockHopper than I do now, but the new bike, whether configured HT or rigid is def. much more composed on anything remotely sketchy.

I rode Ursus at Jakes Rocks in PA for the first time last year in rigid mode. I only ran off the trail one time.  This is because the bike just wanted to go! So I let it - even though I'd never seen it before. But when I got to the bottom I exclaimed "THAT's the trail this bike was built for!"
I wouldn't characterize it as a real black trail as it has many optional lines and is not steep, but it was a good point of reference and an indicator of how good a modern HT really is.

-F


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I rode my ESD down the second gnarliest trail we have today.👍. A couple of the moves are approaching “pro line” status, lol. I won’t say it was pretty, but I cleaned it.. I’m not sure I’ll ever do it again…🤣. 

At least I found out one thing, if my full suspension bike breaks, I can still ride everything I normally ride.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

I can’t hold the same speeds on my ESD so if speed is required I can’t keep up, and not into big drops/ gaps on the ESD either but if its slow tech, even the super steep tech, the ESD really shines. I have been amazed at how much rear suspension is not needed at times. I’m not pedal kicking on it but can pull some trialsy moves with a lot less effort to get through the tech gnar.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

I am shocked at what I can ride on my Honzo ST. I ride the exact same terrain on it as I do on my Druid, and I don’t feel crippled when I wake up the next morning. I love that bike.

That thing is dialled with a 140mm fork but I do find that the seat tube is pretty high. Even with my dropper slammed flush to the top of the seat tube, I still feel uncomfortably high in the super steep $hit.

If I could only keep one bike, I would keep my Honzo. The sense of accomplishment I feel with it is incredible.

A buddy of mine has his ESD frame for sale. Hmmm…There’s always room for one more bike in one’s quiver, right?


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Monty219 said:


> I can't hold the same speeds on my ESD so if speed is required I can't keep up, and not into big drops/ gaps on the ESD either but if its slow tech, even the super steep tech, the ESD really shines. I have been amazed at how much rear suspension is not needed at times. I'm not pedal kicking on it but can pull some trialsy moves with a lot less effort to get through the tech gnar.


Same here. It is only limited in high-speed, rough situations. Because it's a hardtail, of course. Slow, crazy steep tech though, and it is right at home. The two crux moves I did tonight are these two janky/not smooth rock rolls that are high, almost straight down, and scary even on a DH bike. About the only difference I noticed with my ESD compared to my fully is I could not shut down my speed as easily due to traction. Luckily, there is a big catch berm at the bottom of the biggest roll. I got a lot more beat up on the lower half of the trail where it is not quite as steep or technical, but higher speed.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I am shocked at what I can ride on my Honzo ST. I ride the exact same terrain on it as I do on my Druid, and I don't feel crippled when I wake up the next morning. I love that bike.
> 
> That thing is dialled with a 140mm fork but I do find that the seat tube is pretty high. Even with my dropper slammed flush to the top of the seat tube, I still feel uncomfortably high in the super steep $hit.
> 
> ...


If you love your steel Honzo, you'll love the ESD even more. I know exactly what you're talking about regarding the seat tube being too high. I had an aluminum Honzo first and that was my biggest issue with it (still an awesome bike though). The older ones just wouldn't allow you to get the seat low enough for truly steep conditions. They fixed that with the ESD- the seat is completely out of the way when I slam the dropper. The 63 degree head angle doesn't hurt either.?


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## NWA_Tre (Sep 30, 2021)

cookieMonster said:


> If you love your steel Honzo, you'll love the ESD even more. I know exactly what you're talking about regarding the seat tube being too high. I had an aluminum Honzo first and that was my biggest issue with it (still an awesome bike though). The older ones just wouldn't allow you to get the seat low enough for truly steep conditions. They fixed that with the ESD- the seat is completely out of the way when I slam the dropper. The 63 degree head angle doesn't hurt either.?


There's a guy selling a Large ESD frame near me...and I keep getting so tempted. It's just so extreme compared to the other stuff I've looked at. Would be night-and-day, polar opposite of what I've been riding. Not sure that's a bad thing...?


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

NWA_Tre said:


> There's a guy selling a Large ESD frame near me...and I keep getting so tempted. It's just so extreme compared to the other stuff I've looked at. Would be night-and-day, polar opposite of what I've been riding. Not sure that's a bad thing...?


Honestly, it does look like an extreme bike, but it rides just like a typical enduro bike — just without rear suspension of course. My enduro bike has a 65* HA and when sagged, the ESD feels very similar— just a longer reach. It climbs amazingly well — that was the part I was most blown away by. I knew it would descend like a beast.


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## NWA_Tre (Sep 30, 2021)

cookieMonster said:


> Honestly, it does look like an extreme bike, but it rides just like a typical enduro bike — just without rear suspension of course. My enduro bike has a 65* HA and when sagged, the ESD feels very similar— just a longer reach. It climbs amazingly well — that was the part I was most blown away by. I knew it would descend like a beast.


Yep, so far the only knock I'm seeing is slow-speed technical stuff, which we do have a some around here. As long as I can learn to be capable, even if not proficient, at everything I need to do around here, I think I'd pull the trigger.


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## coachxtaylor (Feb 13, 2020)

cookieMonster said:


> Honestly, it does look like an extreme bike, but it rides just like a typical enduro bike — just without rear suspension of course. My enduro bike has a 65* HA and when sagged, the ESD feels very similar— just a longer reach. It climbs amazingly well — that was the part I was most blown away by. I knew it would descend like a beast.


you don’t happen to ride in southern california do you?


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

coachxtaylor said:


> you don’t happen to ride in southern california do you?


Nah, never have. Closest I’ve been is Phoenix and Tucson.


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## pushie (Aug 3, 2020)

They should have a hardtail category in WC DH and EWS.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I have a trail less than ten minutes away that's not so clandestine any longer because people talk about Fight Club. Suspension and bike companies test on it. World DH champions from Europe come to train on it and post on YT. Sometimes after work I can get it to myself if my other half or neighbor will shuttle me. I sometimes ride my DH bike and sometimes ride my non modern full rigid single speed. I've been riding this trail for 20 years, since it was singletrack. Before the goons sanitized some sections (that I destroy, like man made plank and ladder features).
Eff it. Here it is. My DH training trail I can peddle to in minutes.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

^^^That looks amazing. Sorry the word is out!

This kind of happened to us this year as well. For ten years, some of our double black trails remained a secret. Somehow this year, news of them spread like wildfire, and now they are being shuttled to death and in terrible shape. I run track walks on them to service them, but my friend and I are the only ones that do that. Even the original builders gave up, I think. Here in an interesting read that was posted on NSMB the other day, regarding this very issue:

The 14 Laws of Loam


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

cookieMonster said:


> ^^^That looks amazing. Sorry the word is out!
> 
> This kind of happened to us this year as well. For ten years, some of our double black trails remained a secret. Somehow this year, news of them spread like wildfire, and now they are being shuttled to death and in terrible shape. I run track walks on them to service them, but my friend and I are the only ones that do that. Even the original builders gave up, I think. Here in an interesting read that was posted on NSMB the other day, regarding this very issue:
> 
> The 14 Laws of Loam


Yeah, my friend and I are the only ones that walk the trail doing maintenance including hiking the 1200' of vert with chainsaws.


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