# Azoic Saber broken in 3...pictures inside.



## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Well I just got home from a quite unfortunate mountain bike ride. I HAD an Azonic saber. This is how it went. I was on my way home from about a 2 hour leisurely bike ride, nothing big at all. So, right around the corner from my house I decide to hit a 4 1/2 foot stair jump that I have done over 100 times. Well this time was different. I was going quite slow but not too slow. I rode off the jump landed, and thats when it all went wrong. I landed perfectly....until my bike broke into 3 pieces! It broke right at the top tube AND the down tube about six inches in from the from my headset. The top tube also broke about 2 inches in from the seat tube. I hit the ground hard, but I am just thankful that I was smart enough to have my full face helmet on or it could have been MUCH more serious. Injury wise isn't too bad. I may have broken a bone in my hand, cut up my neck, bruised m knee rather badly, and to many other sore spots to count. I am VERY thankful that i didn't hit this jump like I usually do.


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## NoBrakes! (Jun 15, 2007)

What the Hell?

Wow


How old is the frame


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## albertomannil (Nov 25, 2007)

awesome, now you have a sh*tload of replacement parts!

naw just kidding, that sucks a*ss!


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Right where the gussets end.

There must've been some cracking before that happened.


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## Djponee (Dec 20, 2006)

that sucks. i bet it felt quite wierd when you landed.


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## FloridaFish (Mar 29, 2004)

XSL_WiLL said:


> Right where the gussets end.
> 
> There must've been some cracking before that happened.


yup, even at the seattube/toptube connection.

That sure sucks, I shudder when I see pics like that. no drops to flat if I can help it.


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## kenbentit (Jan 2, 2003)

Man, you really got lucky. That could have been a serious injury type of crash.. That's also why I don't really like doing drops to flat, even mellow ones.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Yikes - glad to hear you are relatively ok.

As XSL WiLL said - there was probably gusset cracking before you did that final drop - that just finished it in a very dramatic fashion.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Saber was never cleared for a DC... was it?


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

The thing is I didn't feel ANYTHING at all different about the frame at all. Even being a drop to flat, I think that the bike should have been able to handle that. That drop only went up to below my moms chest who is only 5' 2"


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

How do you expect a crack to "feel?" That's why you're supposed to check. Sometimes cracks creak. Sometimes they do nothing.

And you shouldn't have put a DC on the front end. That in combination with the drop to flat really stresses it out. The already very slack front end continues to get slacker as the rear cycles through the suspension. Wouldn't be surprised if you bottomed and the fork just leveraged the front end off where cracks had already developed from fatigue... The drops to flat didn't help.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Djponee said:


> that sucks. i bet it felt quite wierd when you landed.


Yes indeed. It was quite awkward seeing my headtube in my full face! I knew exactly what happened when I saw the front piece of my front triangle above my head, thanks to that video of the guy going 170 KMH when his headtube snapped.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

XSL_WiLL said:


> How do you expect a crack to "feel?" That's why you're supposed to check. Sometimes cracks creak. Sometimes they do nothing.
> 
> And you shouldn't have put a DC on the front end. That in combination with the drop to flat really stresses it out. The already very slack front end continues to get slacker as the rear cycles through the suspension. Wouldn't be surprised if you bottomed and the fork just leveraged the front end off where cracks had already developed from fatigue... The drops to flat didn't help.


You may be correct, although, I have seen many people running DC on sabers. I didn't think It would have been a huge problem. There is no way I could have foreseen this being as I am only 16 and this was my first freeride rig. I don't know how I would expect a crack to feel, just something "not right" with the ride. Perhaps it was my inexperience? Also, that is the biggest drop I have done too flat, I didn't think that it was too big, was I right in thinking so?


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

drops to flat in general are pretty rough on bikes, glad to hear you're ok, and thats a total bummer about the bike. But I guess you're posting a pretty good lesson on: Why you don't put DC forks on bikes that aren't cleared for them

hope you're able to salvage all the parts on it and get a new frame for relatively cheap


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Thanks too everyone, I did not know a given frame actually had to be cleared for DC use. I will DEFINITELY make sure my next frame is. I was thinking a b52??


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## Hesh to Steel (Oct 2, 2007)

I was looking at the pics thinking that it was insane that the frame broke like that, and then I saw the drop and that makes it even crazier. That looks very tame. Frame was probably cracked beforehand like will said.


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## frankfurt (Jul 30, 2007)

DC or no DC, that bike shouldn't have even notice that drop :nono: 
I do that with a BMX


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

frankfurt said:


> DC or no DC, that bike shouldn't have even notice that drop :nono:
> I do that with a BMX


My point exactly! That drop goes just up to below my moms chest like I said and she is only 5'2"


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## slothoncanvas (Mar 6, 2007)

Yeah it wasn't the drop that killed your frame. It had to have had multiple cracks in the frame. did you buy the frame used? how long have you had it? it might have been cracked when you bought it... and since you're 16, are you pretty light? maybe you just slowly made the cracks bigger and bigger until it just gave under the stress of the impact.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

BMX typically are cromoly. Cromo doesn't have as limited a fatigue life as aluminum. Aluminum will fail over time.

Comparing the two are apples to oranges. As the suspension cycles, the leverage on the parts changes.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

I did buy it used. It has been about 6 or 7 months since I finished it. I am a 150 LBS.


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## slothoncanvas (Mar 6, 2007)

did you get a "screaming" deal on it? cuz it may possibly have had some cracks to start, if you didn't ride it really hard.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Gnar


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

yeah i got a great deal. It was checked out before I bought it also.


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## slothoncanvas (Mar 6, 2007)

hm... like checked by a bike shop? if so I'm not sure then. but either way it didn't just up and break in 3 pieces from that little stair set. those cracks almost had to have been working their way around weakening the frame.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Yes by a bike shop. I should have for sure checked the frame periodically. I just wasn't this expecting this so shortly after I finished i.t.


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## MEWISEMAGIC (Jan 9, 2008)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> My point exactly! That drop goes just up to below my moms chest like I said and she is only 5'2"


I like that unit of measurement. "less than moms chest" "25 moms chests...maybe more"...

Thats one sad heap of bike! I have been dropping stuff like those stairs on my SC Superlite. Pretty stupid no? Looks like I should probably break down and get a more suitable rig, and a full face helmet before i crack it all up.

Glad you didnt get too messed up.


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## Berkley (May 21, 2007)

Worst frame carnage I've ever seen. Makes me wanna go check my frame for cracks...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

XSL_WiLL said:


> How do you expect a crack to "feel?" That's why you're supposed to check. Sometimes cracks creak. Sometimes they do nothing.
> 
> And you shouldn't have put a DC on the front end. That in combination with the drop to flat really stresses it out. The already very slack front end continues to get slacker as the rear cycles through the suspension. Wouldn't be surprised if you bottomed and the fork just leveraged the front end off where cracks had already developed from fatigue... The drops to flat didn't help.


Azonic showed the saber at Interbike with a Marzocchi Super T on it, it was ok for a DC fork. I ran a 1998 handmade Super T on it, but later switched to a shiver sc.

It was just a cheap bike, that's all. I bent the crap out of the super-long shock bolt in the top linkage and the bottom shock mount hole ovalized. A guy in Sedona has (had) one and was riding it a few weeks ago with a crack on the lower shock mount. My current bike, a turner 6 pack, "looks" similer from afar, but the differences are dramatic when you get close. It's simply built to take the abuse, where the saber was not.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Berkley said:


> Worst frame carnage I've ever seen. Makes me wanna go check my frame for cracks...


Please do! I don't want this to happen to anyone else. I am honored to have the worst frame carnage you have ever seen though!


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## HANKg (Mar 20, 2006)

That is crazy....a fine example of catastrophic failure!


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## kenbentit (Jan 2, 2003)

Definitely check your frame carefully; I had my last frame crack mid-ride and I had just gone over it the night before (routine cleaning, checking bolts, etc..) Luckily my friend noticed the huge crack on the top tube while we were stopped for a break (no pun ).. Mine ended up having several cracks but the biggest one (at downtube/headtube junction) could have easily failed just like the Saber. A tiny crack can turn into a broken frame with just one hit.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

sorry to here...I have an Azonic Saber for sale


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## 317000 (Mar 2, 2007)

I think this provides convincing enough evidence as to why cheap catalog frames are bad.

I don't a sh*t how many drops to flat from that height he did, a freeride oriented frame should be able to handle that type of abuse. No questions asked.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

I was under the impression that the Saber fit more into the "All Mountain" category... thus the assumption about DCs. It was pretty short travel for a "freeride" frame of its time.

Dowst, aluminum fails. Your Kona will eventually crack after it's been through enough cycles. It's fatigue life. And damage is cumulative. The greater the stress, the shorter the life. Eventually cracks form. With repeated loading, cracks grow.

Though those gussets are a little suspect, they seem to lead to stress concentrations where they end... maybe there was some poor heat treating.

Obviously stress (amplitude and magnitude) is not the only thing that influences fatigue life... other factors such as geometry (any stress risers), leverage, temperature, grain size, surface, material, residual stress (though from welding should be relieved by heat treating), environment, defects, etc influence fatigue life.

And Dowst... as if big company frames designed in house have never failed... Quite a few SXTs snapped at the chainstay. Trek Sessions have broken at the seat tube. That was an issue with the Giant AC too (I lump the AC and the Saber into roughly the same category). Giant STPs have been known to crack at the headtube. I've seen some crazy pictures of messed up Demos. Poor build quality or material may have influenced it... but other circumstances may have contributed as well.


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## 317000 (Mar 2, 2007)

XSL_WiLL said:


> I was under the impression that the Saber fit more into the "All Mountain" category... thus the assumption about DCs. It was pretty short travel for a "freeride" frame of its time.
> 
> Dowst, aluminum fails. Your Kona will eventually crack after it's been through enough cycles. It's fatigue life. And damage is cumulative. The greater the stress, the shorter the life. Eventually cracks form. With repeated loading, cracks grow.
> 
> ...


I agree about the fatigue life, all frame will eventually fail if subjected to enough abuse. Just thought I might be a little bit longer than 6 months from a kid who weighs 150lbs.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

6 months bought used... That frame was made in like... 2003.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

It's an 04 frame and I bought it fro a guy who weighed less then me. Given, I have no clue what kind of stress it was under prior to purchase. I will NOT be buying another used frame.


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## stealth71 (Apr 11, 2007)

I bought a used frame, but it was a Banshee. Damn that could have ended up much worse. Glad you're okay.


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## BKnight (Mar 27, 2005)

always check your frame when you clean it. 2 months ago i was cleaning my IH, saw what looked like a line of dirt, took a closer look and it was a clear crack on one of the welds. Just be careful and check routine maintenance.


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## GiantGeoff (Jun 22, 2007)

I'll be, i think, the first to ask how're you holding up?


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

GiantGeoff said:


> I'll be, i think, the first to ask how're you holding up?


Well thank you sir. i think my hand is broken, other than that nothing too serious. my knee hurts, my neck, wrist and elbow, not to bad. thanks for asking.


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## tgreathead (Mar 8, 2004)

I've had my Saber for a while now. Had a SuperT on there for about 2 years on and off swapping with a Pike, took it to Mammoth that way a couple times, but recently switched out for a single crown. As the frame gets older I'm more wary of pushing its limits for exactly this reason. Sorry to hear about the fall and breakage, the Saber is my favorite frame I've ever owned and it'll be a sad day when its done.


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## splatman (Jan 30, 2007)

I dig the Shell Gas sticker. Sucks that your bike fell apart, but at least you have a good story for breaking your hand! I always hurt myself doing retarded stuff.

"Yeah, I was hucking this stair drop to flat when my frame broke in three places which made me crash and break my hand."


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Ha yeah it's pretty sick story, one I will never forget, and one I never want to relive. I am a Ferrari enthusiast more than anything (note my name) which is why I put on a shell sticker. In my original post I had stated that the only thing that mattered was that I saw a black 360 spider =)


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

About new frames, what do you guys think of the Azonic b52?


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## splatman (Jan 30, 2007)

II 3nZo II said:


> In my original post I had stated that the only thing that mattered was that I saw a black 360 spider =)


Haha yeah me likes ferrari's too!



II 3nZo II said:


> About new frames, what do you guys think of the Azonic b52?


It's a catalog frame, KHS and some other manufacturerers use it. I've heard of it having some problems with the rear tire rubbing on the seat tube, I'm not sure if they've fixed uit for '08. Personally, if I was getting a new bike, I'd probably get another Ironhorse 7point. (But that's just me)


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

The thing is I need to pay for it =( and i am only 16. The B52 is already "cheap" but if Azonic gives me some kind of deal it might be a great deal.


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## mtnbiker662 (Jun 22, 2004)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> About new frames, what do you guys think of the Azonic b52?


Check these out if you don't mind buying online. Pretty good prices on some pretty good bikes...
http://wheelworld.com/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&id=4958
http://wheelworld.com/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&id=4960
http://wheelworld.com/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&id=4959
http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/16181-175_BANSC6-3-Parts-60-Frames/Banshee-Scream-Frame-'06.htm
http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/15...mes/Duncon-Tosa-Inu-Full-Suspension-Frame.htm


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

mtnbiker662 said:


> Check these out if you don't mind buying online. Pretty good prices on some pretty good bikes...
> http://wheelworld.com/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&id=4958
> http://wheelworld.com/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&id=4960
> http://wheelworld.com/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&id=4959
> ...


I do like that stinky! I need to wait to see what if anything Azonic will do about this.


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## tgreathead (Mar 8, 2004)

If you're looking for something like the B-52 and want to keep FSR you can always find a BigHit frame, they go or pretty cheap.


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

lol, what makes you want another azonic?


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

euroford said:


> lol, what makes you want another azonic?


Because I might be able to get a great deal on one. I still believe they make good frames and I love the company.


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## iridetitus (Sep 16, 2004)

that sucks, bro. 


please post pics of mom's chest. tia...


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## tgreathead (Mar 8, 2004)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> Because I might be able to get a great deal on one. I still believe they make good frames and I love the company.


I doubt they'll do anything for you, the frame is 4 years old and all the drops to flat aren't exactly listed in the 'acceptable usage' of the warranty. On top of all that you bought it used, their warranty is first owner only.

If you really want something similar you could ask if they can hook you up with Azonic Europe and pickup a Samurai, the Saber replacement overseas. I also talked to a guy from Xtension once (company that makes Azonic's frames in Taiwan) and to get the Samurai was really cheap, like $500 shipped. It would take a couple weeks since its on a freighter and I don't think there'd be a warranty but its an option too. Samurai is 6/7" and a tiny bit heavier than the Saber.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

iridetitus said:


> that sucks, bro.
> 
> please post pics of mom's chest. tia...


That was awkward lol. If it comes down to it I will probably get a B52 regardless, I have been inlove with that frame.


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## TAINTEDspinach (Jul 26, 2007)

Thank god it wasnt a crack-n-fail. oh and depending on the bike, drops to flat are fine. i did like an 8 footer on my ironhorse bakuto hardtale in philly and landed on concrete. my ankles will be dust before that bike is nervous.


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## tgreathead (Mar 8, 2004)

TAINTEDspinach said:


> Thank god it wasnt a crack-n-fail. oh and depending on the bike, drops to flat are fine. i did like an 8 footer on my ironhorse bakuto hardtale in philly and landed on concrete. my ankles will be dust before that bike is nervous.


Its true, I've got a steel hardtail that I would drop to flat without thinking twice, but the Saber wasn't really designed for it. Doing it 'over 100 times' will really start to add up.
This reminds me I need to wash mine and give it a good inspection!


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

TAINTEDspinach said:


> Thank god it wasnt a crack-n-fail. oh and depending on the bike, drops to flat are fine. i did like an 8 footer on my ironhorse bakuto hardtale in philly and landed on concrete. my ankles will be dust before that bike is nervous.


Nice, I am also right outside philly =)


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## Bulldog (Jan 13, 2004)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> ...nothing big at all. So, right around the corner from my house I decide to hit a 4 1/2 foot stair jump that I have done over 100 times.


People always forget the fact that it's the cumulative fatigue that kills these aluminum frames. Hitting that drop...repeatedly...to flat...concrete...with a dual crown...is a surefire way to eventually wind up on your face. Glad you had your FF on - good on ya!

I wouldn't count on a replacement or discount from Azonic. Only thing going is how it seemed to fail at every gusset. Technically it doesn't matter if the whole frame melted away because you bought it used. But who knows, if your LBS has a good Azonic vendor they might hook you up since their frames cost them about $1.99 to produce. Doesn't hurt to ask.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> ...stair jump.....done over 100 times...


Just a thought.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

DHidiot said:


> Just a thought.


Okay so maybe I exaggerated a little.


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

I cracked a frame before. I make a habit of inspecting my frame regularly, and was able to notice the crack before it failed catastrophically. Now you know some key spots to look out for. The welds around head tube, and seat tube are popular places for failures.


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## Dh_roach (Jan 28, 2008)

i was just riding along and my frame broke into 3 pieces!!! haha sorry dude that sucks. thats why you don't buy used bike parts unless you absolutely know the history of the frame and parts. i hate to say it dude but whoever sold you that bike got the better of you. if the frame wasn't already cracked when you bought it, theres no way it should have disintegrated like that. what other kind of stuff do you? how do you land? back wheel heavy?


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Dh_roach said:


> i was just riding along and my frame broke into 3 pieces!!! haha sorry dude that sucks. thats why you don't buy used bike parts unless you absolutely know the history of the frame and parts. i hate to say it dude but whoever sold you that bike got the better of you. if the frame wasn't already cracked when you bought it, theres no way it should have disintegrated like that. what other kind of stuff do you? how do you land? back wheel heavy?


It all happened so quick I don't know. It could have been the back wheel a fraction of a second before, or both wheels at the same time. There were no cracks when I bought It and I haven't hit stuff too much bigger than that. You can be sure that my dad is going to have a few "well spoken" words with the guy who sold me the bike.


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> It all happened so quick I don't know. It could have been the back wheel a fraction of a second before, or both wheels at the same time. There were no cracks when I bought It and I haven't hit stuff too much bigger than that. You can be sure that my dad is going to have a few "well spoken" words with the guy who sold me the bike.


How long have you owned it? If the LBS found no cracks when you took ownership, I don't think the seller is in any way at fault. Even if it was treated harshly, if there was no visible damage when you took ownership, your dad has no business with the seller.


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## tgreathead (Mar 8, 2004)

rkj__ said:


> If the LBS found no cracks when you took ownership, I don't think the seller is in any way at fault. Even if it was treated harshly, if there was no visible damage when you took ownership, you dad has no business with the seller.


Very true.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

rkj__ said:


> How long have you owned it? If the LBS found no cracks when you took ownership, I don't think the seller is in any way at fault. Even if it was treated harshly, if there was no visible damage when you took ownership, you dad has no business with the seller.


Maybe, but I do believe the seller (fairly young) may have mislead my dad and I on the stress levels induced on the bike prior to our purchase. If not, I am more than willing to accept the blame. I am trying to handle this as maturely as possible and not point fingers yet, even if at myself. After we get a little more information is when the "well spoken" words would begin, not before we know who is at fault. I know I just made a snap judgement on the seller because I the way he described the bike to me was not in a way that it should fail this shortly after completion.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

It's nobody's fault but your own for not inspecting it... That's the problem with our sue-happy society... nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions.

How is a kid supposed to know exactly how much the frame has fatigued? If you were so concerned, you should've had the frame x-rayed or dye tested.

Cavaet Emptor - let the buyer beware. Seller does not have to offer any warranty... implied or not. He is under no responsibility to provide you with any sort of compensation. He did not actively conceal any cracks by repainting or whatever... and you had your LBS check it out.


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## ViciousD (Feb 18, 2008)

XSL_WiLL said:


> It's nobody's fault but your own for not inspecting it... That's the problem with our sue-happy society... nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions.
> 
> How is a kid supposed to know exactly how much the frame has fatigued? If you were so concerned, you should've had the frame x-rayed or dye tested.
> 
> Cavaet Emptor - let the buyer beware. Seller does not have to offer any warranty... implied or not. He is under no responsibility to provide you with any sort of compensation. He did not actively conceal any cracks by repainting or whatever... and you had your LBS check it out.


Thats pretty much all there is to it.


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## tgreathead (Mar 8, 2004)

Regardless of the outcome I think you'll learn the valuable lesson that drops to flat will eventually kill your bike. Mine's an '04 and aside from small step-downs on trails I've dropped it to flat maybe twice.

Seems likely to me that you bottomed something - fork or shock, or both - and the full brunt of the impact came down on the frame.

Look into a Transition Dirtbag or BottleRocket, those are the only frames in that travel range I'd feel fine dropping to flat. Not only cause they're strong frames but mostly cause Transition has a 'no questions asked' crash replacement policy.


Transition Bikes said:


> All Transition Bikes frames are covered in our "Crash Replacement Policy" to the original registered owner. If for any reason (and we really do mean "any" reason) you should find yourself with a broken frame, you may send us the broken frame section and we will replace it with a new frame section at a nominal charge.


If I remember right the nominal charge really is small considering you get a completely new frame.


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## AKRida (Feb 26, 2004)

oh man there had to be some stress cracks before that...... that's to brutal a break for average a jump to break that bad! p.s. that'll look good on the trophy wall though


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

XSL_WiLL said:


> It's nobody's fault but your own for not inspecting it... That's the problem with our sue-happy society... nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions.
> 
> How is a kid supposed to know exactly how much the frame has fatigued? If you were so concerned, you should've had the frame x-rayed or dye tested.
> 
> Cavaet Emptor - let the buyer beware. Seller does not have to offer any warranty... implied or not. He is under no responsibility to provide you with any sort of compensation. He did not actively conceal any cracks by repainting or whatever... and you had your LBS check it out.


I am more than willing to except the fact that my ignorance and neglect to check the bike played a big part in it. However, I respectfully disagree with your statement "How is a kid supposed to know exactly how much the frame has fatigued." I think that him owning it for 3 years should give him a rough estaminet on frame fatigue based on the stress induced by him as a rider. I greatly appreciate your opinion, but should my failure to check the frame in the last 2 months of easy riding have resulted in this? I never did anything monstrous, and if the bike didn't already have a great deal of stress prior to my ownership it shouldn't have happened. If this is true I should have been informed, and you are correct, I should have had an x-ray done.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> I am more than willing to except the fact that my ignorance and neglect to check the bike played a big part in it. However, I respectfully disagree with your statement "How is a kid supposed to know exactly how much the frame has fatigued." I think that him owning it for 3 years should give him a rough estaminet on frame fatigue based on the stress induced by him as a rider. I greatly appreciate your opinion, but should my failure to check the frame in the last 2 months of easy riding have resulted in this? I never did anything monstrous, and if the bike didn't already have a great deal of stress prior to my ownership it shouldn't have happened. If this is true I should have been informed, and you are correct, I should have had an x-ray done.


As I said... finding the fatigue limit of a material is not the easiest thing to do... The exact same component subjected to the exact same stress cycles could still have very different fail points. You sure as hell don't understand fatigue... so how is he supposed to?


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

*You're still in school right?*



XSL_WiLL said:


> As I said... finding the fatigue limit of a material is not the easiest thing to do... The exact same component subjected to the exact same stress cycles could still have very different fail points. You sure as hell don't understand fatigue... so how is he supposed to?


Hey Will, I'm just curious, what program are you in school wise?


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

XSL_WiLL said:


> As I said... finding the fatigue limit of a material is not the easiest thing to do... The exact same component subjected to the exact same stress cycles could still have very different fail points. You sure as hell don't understand fatigue... so how is he supposed to?


I don't expect him to fully understand either. But, he is older and MUC MUCH MUCH more experienced. I am not going to argue with you, clearly you have much more knowledge than I. I have certainly learned a lot from your posts.


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## el_chupo_ (Nov 15, 2005)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> I am more than willing to except the fact that my ignorance and neglect to check the bike played a big part in it. However, I respectfully disagree with your statement "How is a kid supposed to know exactly how much the frame has fatigued." I think that him owning it for 3 years should give him a rough estaminet on frame fatigue based on the stress induced by him as a rider. I greatly appreciate your opinion, but should my failure to check the frame in the last 2 months of easy riding have resulted in this? I never did anything monstrous, and if the bike didn't already have a great deal of stress prior to my ownership it shouldn't have happened. If this is true I should have been informed, and you are correct, I should have had an x-ray done.


lets call it several dozen drops to flat, fair?

So you put an 8" DC fork on a AM bike, dropped to flat dozens of time. You have put a pretty serious amount of stress repeatedly on the areas that broke.

It is realistic to believe that this other guy rode the bike just as it was supposed to be ridden, and never had a problem with fatigue, other than normal levels for a properly used bike. How long youve owned the bike has nothing to do with the amounts of stress you put on the bike due to your bad decisions.

I think it sucks that you broke our bike, and hope you get a great deal on your next bike, but please build it as its designed. Any MFG out there will tell you what the bike is designed around, A-C wise.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

It's not only the axle to crown length that could've stressed out the headtube, but the additional stiffness too. I'm sure hard bottoming on drops to flat didn't help. As I said before... as you cycle through the travel, the geometry of the bike changes. As the geometry changes, how the stress is applied changes.

Zachdank is on these forums. That guy is 33 years old and straight shreds it. He admits to not knowing a whole lot about his bikes in a recent interview. Man is chill as hell though.

Being older doesn't mean being smarter or more knowledgeable. And certainly not everybody is interested in the mechanics/physics/materials of bikes. Many people don't have the faintest idea how hydraulic systems such as brakes or suspension works. Many people don't know what leverage ratios are. They may not know about bikes, but they might be the most illin rider ever. Or maybe they don't know about bikes, but they know a lot about economics... or politics... or finance... or psychology... or history...


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

el_chupo_ said:


> lets call it several dozen drops to flat, fair?
> 
> So you put an 8" DC fork on a AM bike, dropped to flat dozens of time. You have put a pretty serious amount of stress repeatedly on the areas that broke.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input, it is a 7 inch fork, but none the less not designed for the bike. I had assumed since the person I bought it off used one it would be fine. I am certainly going to make sure I build my new frame right the first time.


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## chooofoojoo (Feb 22, 2007)

XSL_WiLL said:


> Or maybe they don't know about bikes, but they know a lot about economics... or politics... or finance... or psychology... or history...


Hey I know my fair share about bikes, econ, politics, finance and psychology! lol.

All in all I do believe that it comes down to a matter of fact. Aluminum fatigues. Manufacturers understand this, and their warranty's reflect accordingly. I tell my customers that a properly maintained and properly ridden bike will last them honestly 4-6 years of use.

putting a DC fork on an AM bike is a no no (unless it's specialized e150 fork.. haha) This induces abnormal stress on key points of the bike. No company, vendor, or private seller (in their right mind) would take responsibly for *your* choice to have such a build on the frame, and *your* choice to ride in an abusive manner (drops to flat is terrible for bikes), nor would they cover you for *your* choice to not thoroughly inspect the bike for cracks periodically, if not before every ride.

The cracks probably did not develop on that ride. They were probably there beforehand, and decided to fail in such a dramatic way.

sorry your bike broke bud, and that you got a little banged up. Lets hope you can learn from this and not let it happen again!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Ok, please listen carefully folks;

This bike was NOT advertised as an "AM" bike. 

That may have been the use catagory that it eventually fell into or a better idea than dropping 12' to flat, but think before you start calling it "AM", for it was not advertised that way. This bike was advertised as capable of supporting a DC fork, and advertised accordingly. Azonic (extension) screwed up with this bike and it was underdesigned and underbuilt for the kind of riding that it was advertised for. We didn't really know this at the time, there was no way we could. Azonic takes cheaply manufacturered stuff and sells it, sometimes for a good price, sometimes for way too much compared to the manufacturing cost. They're out there to make a buck, and they probably should have recalled this frame. I still have my sitting in the garage, but it's useless with the ovalized lower pivot. Not everyone figured this out right away, and many frames were sold (for half the original retail or less) to people looking for a deal. This put them out there but lots of people broke them, not everyone had the $$$ to replace their bikes, such as the nice guy in Sedona that's been riding one forever (but it's now cracked at the lower shock mount). Not everyone got "the news" that you shouldn't ride these frames the way they were advertised, and in fact it's not that they were underbuilt so much as they were underdesigned in terms of ability to take stresses. The huge-wide top shock bolt is evidence of that, and way too easy to bend due to leverage. 

I have no idea how this bike was advertised in it's last year or so, but during the first few this was a freeride bike. 

This is how it was advertised;


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## chooofoojoo (Feb 22, 2007)

Jayem said:


> Ok, please listen carefully folks;
> 
> This bike was NOT advertised as an "AM" bike.
> 
> ...


Point taken. Thank your for the clarification.


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## Dalis12 (Jan 15, 2008)

damn.... gonna go check my frame for cracks right now!!


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## HANKg (Mar 20, 2006)

There really is no good way for anybody to know what kind of stress a bike has been through. To many different factors to consider; rider weight, smoothness, drops to flat(how many...who counts?), etc. 
That bike failing like that to me is still shocking. I would consider that a small drop, granted it was to flat, but catastrophic failure...I wouldn't have seen it coming. Thanks for learning that one for all of us, the hard way.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

I think you are handling the deal very maturely and calmly, If it was another pinkbikish user he would've been flaming the boards, insulting and demanding a new frame.

Good luck, and hope you get that B52!!


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## HANKg (Mar 20, 2006)

rkj__ said:


> Hey Will, I'm just curious, what program are you in school wise?


My guess would be mechanical or materials engineering. I'm in Construction engineering (subset of Civil). We get into stresses, materials, all that but not to the same extent.


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## AKRida (Feb 26, 2004)

Azonic doesn't make their own frames btw.... so you can find a similar fsr model with different brands.... a KHS Lucky 7 for instance

get the same frame without the markup of it being an *azonic*..... when i say same frame, i mean it!  they just slap different paint and brands before their shipped lol.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Thank you everyone for your input! I have really learned a lot from this experience, especially what to tell people when they ask "why do you wear that dumb helmet?" Seriously though I have found out a lot of useful information for my next frame purchase. I am thinking that I am going to get a B52 regardless of discount etc. Are there any other frames in that $1500 price range with about the same amount travel you guys would recommend?


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## Bulldog (Jan 13, 2004)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> Okay so maybe I exaggerated a little.


First time EVER that someone with a broken frame has OVER-exaggerated the abuse they put the bike through! LMAO!

And have daddy talk to the seller?! C'mon, now I want to talk to your daddy. Make sure you're not giving him the JRA sob story.

Just call Azonic and be cool and see if they can help. You bought a used frame, you beat the crap out of it, it broke. What's unfair about any of that?


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Bulldog said:


> First time EVER that someone with a broken frame has OVER-exaggerated the abuse they put the bike through! LMAO!
> 
> And have daddy talk to the seller?! C'mon, now I want to talk to your daddy. Make sure you're not giving him the JRA sob story.
> 
> Just call Azonic and be cool and see if they can help. You bought a used frame, you beat the crap out of it, it broke. What's unfair about any of that?


I don't appreciate you coming into this situation not knowing anything about me or my family. So DON'T assume daddy bought this for me and I am playing it out so he will buy me a new frame. I am buying myself a new frame so it doesn't matter how much I exaggerate. BTW I said "maybe" I exaggerated, I don't know how many times I have done that drop, but the point was to explain to everyone that I did it a lot, and I got that point across fine.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> Thank you everyone for your input! I have really learned a lot from this experience, especially what to tell people when they ask "why do you wear that dumb helmet?" Seriously though I have found out a lot of useful information for my next frame purchase. I am thinking that I am going to get a B52 regardless of discount etc. Are there any other frames in that $1500 price range with about the same amount travel you guys would recommend?


$1500 for a frame would set you up with something nice 

Look at transition for example, only mentioning them because I've been eying up the BR and dirtbag


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

essenmeinstuff said:


> $1500 for a frame would set you up with something nice
> 
> Look at transition for example, only mentioning them because I've been eying up the BR and dirtbag


The LBS has a white BR for sale, but I don't know if I want to go down in rear wheel travel from my old bike. I was thinking something the the B52's 7.5 inches so I could possibly start racing?


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> The LBS has a white BR for sale, but I don't know if I want to go down in rear wheel travel from my old bike. I was thinking something the the B52's 7.5 inches so I could possibly start racing?


Heaps of travel is not always better. It comes down to the terrain you're riding.

There are probably a few BR owners here, ask them what they think of it


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

essenmeinstuff said:


> Heaps of travel is not always better. It comes down to the terrain you're riding.
> 
> There are probably a few BR owners here, ask them what they think of it


The thing is, I do a lot of drops like the one in the picture to relative flat, so I want something that will have enough travel not to stress the fame too much. But that BR is veryyyy good looking!


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> I am thinking that I am going to get a B52 regardless of discount etc. Are there any other frames in that $1500 price range with about the same amount travel you guys would recommend?


seriously dude, you could get a much nicer bike, from a cooler company, for less money. why don't you shop around a little bit more. i really do like my azonic outlaw wheels, but for the most part azonic just sells catalog crap.

you could get yourself a transition dirtbag with a dhx 5.0 coil for $1200 if you want to keep plenty of travel.

dropping to flat is kind of lame, but i do it anyways a couple of times when i ride my bottlerocket to work in the morning.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

euroford said:


> seriously dude, you could get a much nicer bike, from a cooler company, for less money. why don't you shop around a little bit more. i really do like my azonic outlaw wheels, but for the most part azonic just sells catalog crap.
> 
> you could get yourself a transition dirtbag with a dhx 5.0 coil for $1200 if you want to keep plenty of travel.
> 
> dropping to flat is kind of lame, but i do it anyways a couple of times when i ride my bottlerocket to work in the morning.


I will definitely shop around. I kind of want a different frame design than the saber. Also, I already have a DC fork, all be it it absolutely sucks, but I will need a frame DC approved since I can't afford a new fork yet.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> The thing is, I do a lot of drops like the one in the picture to relative flat, so I want something that will have enough travel not to stress the fame too much. But that BR is veryyyy good looking!


The BR is a beefy bike, I'm sure owners of them would let ya know, that that kind of thing is a non issue for them

Also be aware a lot has to do with the rider, some could do that drop on a HT and land smooth as butter, others would probably crash a big bike doing it (not referring to your little crash lol).


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

*This thread is great...*

This thread really has a lot of great information and lessons learned. Here are a few that I always follow:

1. Never ever purchase a used aluminum frame - unless you know the rider very well. You will always get the "I treated it like gold" response. Most people are honest, some are not. I am not relating this to the current situation with the seller. Just making a point.

2. Always check to make sure the fork you plan to use is approved and recommended for use. Sometimes difficult I agree, but very important. Just because someone else does and you see a few pics out there, you still need to make sure.

3. Avoid flat drops. I used to do a ton of drops to flats. But after a while you realize that it beats up your body and induces so much stress on bike parts..

4. Inspect you bike often. Look for loose bolts, worn parts, cracks ect...

So you purchased a used frame from a person who owned it for 3 years. Did this person purchase it new or previously owned? Do you know the rider and if he/she is someone who performs routine maintenance on it (more important for full suspension, pivots, bearings ect.). Are you friends with him or was this an online purchase?

As far as replacements, the Bottlerocket is the best all purpose bike I have ever owned. I built it specifically for a DH/FR mountain and I do a fair amount of good, solid DH riding. The bike handles everything.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> The thing is, I do a lot of drops like the one in the picture to relative flat, so I want something that will have enough travel not to stress the fame too much. But that BR is veryyyy good looking!


Quality over quantity.

Also different tubing, profiles, geometry, etc.


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## rustyskills (Dec 23, 2007)

that sucks 

crazy to see something break like that


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> sorry to here...I have an Azonic Saber for sale


yet, you fail to mention that the frame has ovalized shock mount holes...

what a douche...


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## Bulldog (Jan 13, 2004)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> I don't appreciate you coming into this situation not knowing anything about me or my family. So DON'T assume daddy bought this for me and I am playing it out so he will buy me a new frame. I am buying myself a new frame so it doesn't matter how much I exaggerate. BTW I said "maybe" I exaggerated, I don't know how many times I have done that drop, but the point was to explain to everyone that I did it a lot, and I got that point across fine.





> You can be sure that my dad is going to have a few "well spoken" words with the guy who sold me the bike.


I only read what you wrote. So what did you mean by threatening to have daddy talk to the seller then? All my previous comments stand...your LBS said it was fine, you bought it used, rode it hard and broke it. It's cool if Azonic wants to hook you up but neither they nor the seller owe you anything. Pointing the finger at the seller and accusing them of misrepresentation is childish. And hitting drops to flat concrete over and over is not 2 months of "easy riding", as you say. Look at the top quote where you admitted about that drop "I did it a lot". I suggest you quit pointing fingers, accept the bulk of the blame, accept that flat drops kill frames quickly, keep your head up, and move on.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Bulldog said:


> I only read what you wrote. So what did you mean by threatening to have daddy talk to the seller then? All my previous comments stand...your LBS said it was fine, you bought it used, rode it hard and broke it. It's cool if Azonic wants to hook you up but neither they nor the seller owe you anything. Pointing the finger at the seller and accusing them of misrepresentation is childish. And hitting drops to flat concrete over and over is not 2 months of "easy riding", as you say. Look at the top quote where you admitted about that drop "I did it a lot". I suggest you quit pointing fingers, accept the bulk of the blame, accept that flat drops kill frames quickly, keep your head up, and move on.


Not once did I refer to my dad as "daddy" which makes me seem like an incompetent person who lets my dad do my work for me, so please don't alter what I said. Also, if you would cool your hothead down and read into the thread a little bit you will notice that a made a post stating it was wrong to point fingers and I accept a large part of the blame. Furthermore, how can you say pointing fingers at the seller is childish. Did you sell me the bike? Do you know how he advertised the bike to me? No you don't. Why don't you read a little more and think about what you say before insulting me.


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## tgreathead (Mar 8, 2004)

All misunderstandings aside I think you should really think about how much stress you were putting on the bike. As stated above, a DC fork definitely added stress, bottoming on 5' drops to flat added stress, and the fact that its a 4 year old frame compounds everything.

Personally I think there's no reason to contact the seller or LBS. The LBS legitimately checked the frame and found no problems which puts them and the seller out of the picture. The frame is 4 years old and has been dropped to flat a ton of times, that puts Azonic out of the picture. 

It sounds like you're now starting to understand the toll that those drops take on a bike. Ask around or do some searches in the forum, its the fastest way to break parts. Street BMXs and many jumping hardtails are made from steel which, as has been said already, holds up to drops much better than aluminum. There's a reason why you will never see anyone in a bike video hucking to flat on anything other than a beefy hardtail, its just a waste of money.

Until you can drop to flat as smooth as Ryan Leech I'd say keep it under 3 feet. :thumbsup:

EDIT: if you absolutely can't live without the drops to flat, look into a slopestyle bike like the BottleRocket, Intense SS, etc. Those bikes are designed specifically to take hits instead of being plush DH bikes like the B-52.


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## Bulldog (Jan 13, 2004)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> Not once did I refer to my dad as "daddy" which makes me seem like an incompetent person who lets my dad do my work for me, so please don't alter what I said. Also, if you would cool your hothead down and read into the thread a little bit you will notice that a made a post stating it was wrong to point fingers and I accept a large part of the blame. Furthermore, how can you say pointing fingers at the seller is childish. Did you sell me the bike? Do you know how he advertised the bike to me? No you don't. Why don't you read a little more and think about what you say before insulting me.


Ok. You don't get it. Everything you have said in this thread points to your F-up. That's all I know because that's all you've said, if you had something worthwhile to make your case I'm sure you would have posted it. I have nothing to get hot about, there's no stake in this for me. But if the seller had sold you the frame under false pretenses why the heck wouldn't you have said that?! I think if you were to step back and read what you've typed in this thread (nothing between the lines) you'd understand a different, NEUTRAL point of view.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Bulldog said:


> Ok. You don't get it. Everything you have said in this thread points to your F-up. That's all I know because that's all you've said, if you had something worthwhile to make your case I'm sure you would have posted it. I have nothing to get hot about, there's no stake in this for me. But if the seller had sold you the frame under false pretenses why the heck wouldn't you have said that?! I think if you were to step back and read what you've typed in this thread (nothing between the lines) you'd understand a different, NEUTRAL point of view.


I understand where you come from, however I did state in one of my posts that the seller may have mislead me.


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## d34thc4p (Jun 3, 2006)

so can i buy it off you for welding practice?


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

d34thc4p said:


> so can i buy it off you for welding practice?


hmm, I don't know. PM me a price. I may want to keep it, this sort of thing doesn't happen everyday.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

So here is the deal. I mostly ride urban city stuff, so drops to flat are hard to avoid. Thats why I was thinking a big travel FS bike. But it has been brought to my attention that the Transition BR may be good for this. I was also thinking about ditching the drops and getting a DS1 thats already built up. What do you guys think for an urban setting?


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Decent cromo hardtail. Short travel fork. Single speed.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

XSL_WiLL said:


> Decent cromo hardtail. Short travel fork. Single speed.


I can get a fully built brand new DS1 for $1200 +/- Or I can get a cromo frame (which would you recommend) and transfer some parts from my bike and buy a new fork. Which do you think is smarter?


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

for mostly urban, absolutely get yourself a chromo hardtail.

i DO have fun ridding my BR in the city, but i have WAY MORE fun ridding my Mob!!

not to mention, you can get yourself into a good urban frame and a good fork for pretty cheap. you could get yourself a transition trail or park along with a rs argyle fork for around $800. 

heck, you can buy a blk mrkt 357 complete for $1000 and you are riding a 100% *****in urban bike for less than you plan to spend on a frame.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

euroford said:


> for mostly urban, absolutely get yourself a chromo hardtail.
> 
> i DO have fun ridding my BR in the city, but i have WAY MORE fun ridding my Mob!!
> 
> ...


WOW! I am REALLY liking that blk mrkt! I am going to take that into serious consideration. The more I think about my rides with my saber the more I think I would have had more fun on a hardtail SS. I think I would look like and Idiot though because my parents will probably make me wear a full face for urban if it is on a hardtail or not lol.


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## tgreathead (Mar 8, 2004)

Didn't realize you do mostly urban, definitely SS cromo hardtail.

-BLKMRKT
-Nemesis Project
-Dobermann


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

GT Ruckus UF if you want something cheap. Nice geo. Nighttrain is a bit cheaper than the BlkMrkt... I like it better too. Thunderbird is even cheaper than the Nighttrain.


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## MaddSquirrel (Aug 5, 2005)

Who cares about the full face, you will be glad you have it. Also, take a look at the 
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/BI309R00-Eastern+Night+Train+26+Complete+Bike+07.aspx

Would definately get you started.


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## Bulldog (Jan 13, 2004)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> I understand where you come from, however I did state in one of my posts that the seller may have mislead me.


FYI - without expanding on that, just dropping one-liners like that, it comes off as whining and finger pointing. When you admit to doing many things that could cause it to fail and then drop that line if leaves that kind of feeling. If you have an email or convo from the seller to make your point why not post it? And even then, you paid your LBS to check it out right? This failure seems pretty open-and-shut. It seems that most of the abuse came from your riding, and some from the roll of the dice that is buying a used, low quality FR frame. If you need to have a beef, maybe have it with your LBS's inspection. But in the end I don't think too many here would be suprised if you had bought that frame new and did what you did and it wound up failing. Poor design and very abusive riding. That's the sad reality of drops to flat. Sorry for your loss and I'm glad you're relatively unharmed, but I'm done typing on this. Best of luck.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Bulldog said:


> FYI - without expanding on that, just dropping one-liners like that, it comes off as whining and finger pointing. When you admit to doing many things that could cause it to fail and then drop that line if leaves that kind of feeling. If you have an email or convo from the seller to make your point why not post it? And even then, you paid your LBS to check it out right? This failure seems pretty open-and-shut. It seems that most of the abuse came from your riding, and some from the roll of the dice that is buying a used, low quality FR frame. If you need to have a beef, maybe have it with your LBS's inspection. But in the end I don't think too many here would be suprised if you had bought that frame new and did what you did and it wound up failing. Poor design and very abusive riding. That's the sad reality of drops to flat. Sorry for your loss and I'm glad you're relatively unharmed, but I'm done typing on this. Best of luck.


I see what you are saying, even though there is more too the story with the bike shop and the seller but I won't bring that information forth. I appreciate your respectful, logical post.


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

What is the best hardtail I can get for $1000-$1500 in your guys opion?


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> What do is the best hardtail I can get for $1000-$1500 in your guys opion?


read the posts above. or go visit the urban dj forum where kids talk about this stuff all the time.


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## el_chupo_ (Nov 15, 2005)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> What is the best hardtail I can get for $1000-$1500 in your guys opion?


Like Will said, look into Eastern Completes. I would get this : http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/BI297R01-Eastern+Thunderbird+26+Bike+08.aspx

And save the rest for a new FS frame. You can pick up something like : http://wheelworld.com/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&id=4960

And have a pretty nice bike for both types of riding.

If you really think you wont ride the FS after you get the hardtail, the Eastern Night train or BLK MRKT 357 would be sick.


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## Hesh to Steel (Oct 2, 2007)

> Like Will said, look into Eastern Completes. I would get this : http://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...6+Bike+08.aspx


I love the description that comes with that bike:

"The Eastern Thunderbird is a bike that know who to fly whether your riding the urban jungle or the dirt jump park the Thunderbird is ready fly."

huh?


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Okay guys, so it looks like I am determined on a Blk Mrkt .357. I will keep you guys updated.


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## singletrackin (Oct 15, 2004)

XSL_WiLL said:


> BMX typically are cromoly. Cromo doesn't have as limited a fatigue life as aluminum. Aluminum will fail over time.
> 
> Comparing the two are apples to oranges. As the suspension cycles, the leverage on the parts changes.


Well said XSL WiLL. You couldn't be more right.


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## tgreathead (Mar 8, 2004)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> Okay guys, so it looks like I am determined on a Blk Mrkt .357. I will keep you guys updated.


I think you'll like it. Post some pics when you've got it :thumbsup:


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> What is the best hardtail I can get for $1000-$1500 in your guys opion?


u don't need to spend that much


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## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

ll 3nZo ll said:


> Okay guys, so it looks like I am determined on a Blk Mrkt .357. I will keep you guys updated.


good call man, thats a rig you can be proud of and will ride for years.

about the only parts i'm not keen on are the promax mechanical brake and the marz dj3 fork. though those parts are definitely good enough for the purpose though, and have to be what they are to keep the price down. otherwise, most of the parts on that bike would be just as suitable for a big money custom build.


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## tgreathead (Mar 8, 2004)

euroford said:


> ...those parts are definitely good enough for the purpose though, and have to be what they are to keep the price down.


Ya, better to learn to be smooth on those parts so by the time they break you can treat the upgrades real nice


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## Orange-Goblin (Jan 27, 2008)

Gutted. Like someone else said, the cracks are all at the gusset ends, which makes it look like the tubes were stressed there for a while, and the drop was the straw on the camels back so to speak.

I've done bigger drops on my hardtail, it wasn't that drop alone. Mind you, some poeple just land flat on their saddles and let the sus do the work with absolutely no leg work. I started on BMX, and a hardtail so i guess i'm used to smoothing jumps/drops out, that helps to decrease fatigue.

I see so many kids just riding off stuff thinking cos they have 7 inches, they can ride like an elephant! Smoothness lengthens the life of your bike!

Anyway, don't mean that you can't ride! Just my 2 cents. Sorry to see the death of a bike!


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Okay guys, I have an update! As much as I would absolutely die for a blk mrkt MOB frame it just isn't logical when I can get a brand new transition Trail or park at dealer price. So, I will be getting a white T-O-P very soon hopefully! I am hoping that it is as strong or stronger then the MOB would have been.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I finally found the picture I was looking for;

Here's how azonic presented the saber at interbike when it debued.

Yeah, they were trying to pass it off as a freeride bike, and that's how they marketed it.


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## tgreathead (Mar 8, 2004)

Jayem said:


> I finally found the picture I was looking for;
> 
> Here's how azonic presented the saber at interbike when it debued.
> 
> Yeah, they were trying to pass it off as a freeride bike, and that's how they marketed it.


Interesting, the rockers are also way thinner than the final production model.


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## themarsvolta55 (Dec 23, 2004)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> yet, you fail to mention that the frame has ovalized shock mount holes...
> 
> what a douche...


roflcopters


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Jayem said:


> I finally found the picture I was looking for;
> 
> Here's how azonic presented the saber at interbike when it debued.
> 
> Yeah, they were trying to pass it off as a freeride bike, and that's how they marketed it.


rockers are way bigger on my bike


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## zahgurim (Aug 12, 2005)

Good choice on the TrailOrPark. Awesome bikeys...


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## ll 3nZo ll (Feb 15, 2007)

Is it me or does the down tube also look thinner? But anyway I just bought an 07 float RLC for my ToP. I also have a bunch of parts for sale if anyone needs them, including a nice King headset


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