# How light have you gotten your e-bike?



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

What was it box-stock? What have you done to it and has it made a difference?

How light do you want it to be ideally? I do find that the slower the bike is moving, the more I feel the weight. Like when it's in the garage, or lifting it onto the rack, I feel every pound. 

I've ridden a 56 lb ebike and a 42 lb one and it does make a difference. The other very important factors are suspension support and braking/balance. Front and rear shocks that fully support the weight of the bike can make it feel light. But just talking about bike weight, let's see your project.

Photos please.


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## JackWare (Aug 8, 2016)

After I managed to shave about 3kg off my normal fat bike I looked to see where I could do the same to my ebike, however the savings are dwarfed by the battery and motor weight and I tend to carry a spare battery which weights 2kg on longer trips, so I've saved my money and time and just accepted that it's a PITA as you describe when not riding but soon forget when I'm pedaling. As pictured it weighs just under 57lbs.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

I got an Intense Tazer large. Stock comes in at 47.5lbs without pedals.

I've added: a carbon bar, tubeless, carbon rims, XT DI2 shifting , XT trail pedals & XT cassette. But my rear hub just experienced a catastrophic failure and is being sent back to Bontrager for replacement.

Bike weighed with pedals & stock aluminum rear wheel with tube. Came in at 47lbs.

I think with my carbon rear wheel, maybe 46lbs. The stock Maxxis EXO+ tires are heavy but not worrying about flats is priceless. 









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## shreddr (Oct 10, 2009)

My Focus Bold2 weighs about 45 lbs, I could probably take 2-3 pounds off with some tricker wheels and less capable tires, but it would still be a 40+lb hard tail. Of bigger concern to me is the 375 kWh battery capacity. I get about 2 hours on Eco mode before the tank is empty and if you haven’t experienced the “joy” of a 45 lb bike with SIGNIFICANT motor drag, you should try it once to know you shouldn’t tempt battery fate. It does not spin free!


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## kaleidopete (Feb 7, 2015)

My 2014 Surly Moonlander with Bionx drive weighs 65 pounds.









My 2019 Trek Powerfly 7 weighs 50 pounds


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

My Surly Wednesday weighs a bit less then 70 pounds. 17 AH battery, rear rack, Rohloff hub, and a BBSHD. It's all relative, you get used to it. Throwing it over a gate or fence ain't going to happen though.


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## FZBob (Apr 14, 2008)

39.6 lb. However, it's a DIY with a small battery, so it may not count...

















The Reign without conversion is a porky 34 Lb, due to a heavy 7" dropper, chunky 160mm Marzocchi fork, longer rear shock (6.75" rear travel), big brakes, wide rims, etc. When I first bought it, I had it down to 30 lb

The E-conversion added 5.6 lb total. I get a nice 250 watts of assist (up to 500 occasionally). Battery is good for 100 watt hours, and my standard loop uses about 60 Wh very comfortably. (10 miles, 1000'). Cost me about $400.

A few weeks ago, I knocked the master link clip off in the parking lot. My buddy peer pressured me into doing the ride without assist. It rode about the same as it did before the conversion.

Ideally, I keep eyeing my old Trance 29er, which is just under 30 lb with a 34mm 150 fork and a long shock. It would be 35.5 lb. But I really love that bike, and can't bring myself to do it (so far)...


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I dropped my waist to 28 in.
It is an improvement for each of my bike.
Also i have the habit of not carrying any liquid so together this is about a 12 pounds of savings. I also avoid any FS that is another saving. Just increasing the raw food intake helps to drop a pound each week.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Focus Jam2 Pro 29er XL, 46lbs. Mods? Too many! The bike rips. It is currently for sale.

-2019 Rock Shock Lyrik 150 (Stock 140mm Yari)

-2019 DVO Topaz 3 (Stock Rock Shox)

-203mm rotors XT ICE TECH (Stock 180mm)

-xt 4 piston brakes (Stock 2 Piston)

-xt 165mm cranks (Stock 170mm)

-Fox transfer dropper

-Wolf tooth remote

-Ergon seat

-Ergon grips

- Renthal Carbon Fatbar

-Renthal Apex 35mm stem

-DT Swiss XMC 1200 Spline Drive hybrid carbon wheels ($2800 alone) light and stiff.

-Maxxis Minion / Aggressor 2.5 WT tires

-Shimano 6000 mode switch

-tubeless naturally

-Brand New Tec Pak. ($500)

SIZE XL, I'm 6'1 and fits perfectly

It's full XT Di2.


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## JMac47 (Apr 23, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> I got an Intense Tazer large. Stock comes in at 47.5lbs without pedals.
> 
> I've added: a carbon bar, tubeless, carbon rims, XT DI2 shifting , XT trail pedals & XT cassette. But my rear hub just experienced a catastrophic failure and is being sent back to Bontrager for replacement.
> 
> ...


So, just like justifying dropping weight on an acoustic bike, that pound saved cost you just how much??


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

I've been thinking about switching out the 2.8 Butcher Grids on my Levo for some 2.5 or 2.6 tires. I realized I can save half a pound just by switching tires. Of course, I can go tubeless while I'm at it and save a bit more. . .


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

scatterbrained said:


> I've been thinking about switching out the 2.8 Butcher Grids on my Levo for some 2.5 or 2.6 tires. I realized I can save half a pound just by switching tires. Of course, I can go tubeless while I'm at it and save a bit more. . .


That is the problem with focussing on bike weight. Less traction, lower BB.
For me i prefer 3.0 on my 40 mm.
Are you sure it will be an improvement?


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

33red said:


> That is the problem with focussing on bike weight. Less traction, lower BB.
> For me i prefer 3.0 on my 40 mm.
> Are you sure it will be an improvement?


Personally, I can't stand the ride of the Butcher Grid. Too round and bouncy. The round profile I attribute to the tire design, but the bounciness comes from the volume of the tire. I have a WTB Vigilante 2.6 on my Remedy and size wise it's pretty much the same. It too has a bit more "bounce" than I'd like, but not as much. Meanwhile, the more square and aggressive tread profile suites my riding style (and the terrain here) much better.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

JMac47 said:


> So, just like justifying dropping weight on an acoustic bike, that pound saved cost you just how much?


Too much! But this is how I justify it! I ride almost everyday and every upgrade I bought, made the bike lighter and stronger! Plus, having spare parts is a plus!

Before carbon wheels, I'd go through a rear rim about every 6 months. Now I easily get over 2yrs out of a carbon rear rim. Going to install a tire insert soon and test those waters, should increase rim durability.

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## BIke N Gear (Sep 27, 2004)

All my upgrades have upped the weight of my Turbo Levo. Minions were heavier than the Butchers and I replaced the RS rear shock with an Ohlins TTX coil shock. Both upped the performance of the bike. Won't put this one on a scale though.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

BIke N Gear said:


> All my upgrades have upped the weight of my Turbo Levo. Minions were heavier than the Butchers and I replaced the RS rear shock with an Ohlins TTX coil shock. Both upped the performance of the bike. Won't put this one on a scale though.


I hear you! My bike came with heavy maxxis tires. My next mods will gain weight: tire insert, front spring kit, avalanche cartridge and probably a coil shock. That's probably an easy 2lbs.

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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Geeking out on weight is hilarious enough on normal bikes. With an e-bike, it's hysterical. Carbon wheels? You+your bike are at least 200 pounds (assuming you're pretty small and your bike is pretty light). That's a massive 1/2% savings even if you had really heavy wheels to start. And in the real world a lot of us are quite a bit heavier, am I right?

Aside from placebo effect and/or your buddies picking it up at the coffee shop (because that's what you're required to do when someone gets a new bike, right?), you aren't going to notice.

Now if you're a 90# 5' tall lady (or gentleman), the bike might be a lot to handle just pushing/dragging it around when you're not onboard. Loading onto a bike rack can be a PITA. But in terms of actually riding, you've got an extra ProTour rider worth of power available. 5 or 10 pounds of good reliable parts isn't going to hurt you in any way. 

-Walt


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Walt said:


> Geeking out on weight is hilarious enough on normal bikes. With an e-bike, it's hysterical. Carbon wheels? You+your bike are at least 200 pounds (assuming you're pretty small and your bike is pretty light). That's a massive 1/2% savings even if you had really heavy wheels to start. And in the real world a lot of us are quite a bit heavier, am I right?
> 
> Aside from placebo effect and/or your buddies picking it up at the coffee shop (because that's what you're required to do when someone gets a new bike, right?), you aren't going to notice.
> 
> ...


Right on. There's some insight to that. Dismissive too.

I have a 55 lb ebike in the garage and a 42 lb one too. They're wildly different even though they have the same motor and I'm the same rider.

If you've ridden one on a variety of trail, you'll understand. At high speed, Downieville, downhill type, doesn't make too much of a difference. But in tight, low-speed trails, a lot of braking accelerating, it matters more.

Portaging over fallen trees and onto the bike rack, yes.

Something interesting is opting for a 350wh battery instead of 700wh one for weekday jaunts. Save 4 lbs on weight that will go unused anyway.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Cutting weight from the wheels usually makes a noticeable difference in handling. Doesn't matter that you're going from 50lbs to 49lbs, if that pound came out of the wheels you'll feel it when you're tossing the bike around on the trail.


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## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

mtbbiker said:


> I hear you! My bike came with heavy maxxis tires. My next mods will gain weight: tire insert, front spring kit, avalanche cartridge and probably a coil shock. That's probably an easy 2lbs.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When I installed CushCore (29er) I first weighed them against the spare tube I used to carry. The inserts each weighed the same as a tube. So if you're still running tubes at least you know you won't be gaining any weight there by switching to tubeless with a tire insert.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

scatterbrained said:


> Cutting weight from the wheels usually makes a noticeable difference in handling. Doesn't matter that you're going from 50lbs to 49lbs, if that pound came out of the wheels you'll feel it when you're tossing the bike around on the trail.


Very true. I put very light wheels on a 29 bike and it felt like a 23 pounder.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

I about ruptured myself last year, after riding 60+ miles (from the Hailey ID airport up to the top of Galena Summit), and after finding out on the way they have a bus service I managed to get the last one of the day back to the airport, in Ketchum. I rode up just as the lady bus driver was ready to pull away, otherwise I would have lightened things up a lot in just a minute. She gave me a look like helping load bikes was not her job. The bike rack on the front of the bus was a poor design, even with a regular bike it looked like a pain, it made you pick your bike up and then extend it, while leaning forward just a real awkward ergonomically screwed up deal. I sucked it up and got it on there, my Montague/Rohloff combo, but with all 3 batteries on it, 29 AH, and didn't hold the bus up. On the ride to Hailey I started talking to a guy, and he helped me get it off when we got off, he was impressed I got it on solo, but I was desperate as thunder storms were moving in and I needed to pack the bike up and fly off in front of them. It worked out perfect, I don't want to know what a height of the tourist season motel cost there, especially when my place was 1 hour away. This and one or two other times are the only time the weight of any of my ebikes has been a issue.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Walt said:


> Geeking out on weight is hilarious enough on normal bikes. With an e-bike, it's hysterical. Carbon wheels? You+your bike are at least 200 pounds (assuming you're pretty small and your bike is pretty light). That's a massive 1/2% savings even if you had really heavy wheels to start. And in the real world a lot of us are quite a bit heavier, am I right?
> 
> Aside from placebo effect and/or your buddies picking it up at the coffee shop (because that's what you're required to do when someone gets a new bike, right?), you aren't going to notice.
> 
> ...


As FC stated, pretty dismissive and belittling. I guess you didn't read the other post of mine? I put carbon wheels on all my bikes, but not for the light weight, although a nice benefit and the stiffness they add, but more important to me is the strength of a carbon wheelset. I'm about 205lbs and a very aggressive rider, before carbon wheels, I'd break the rear aluminum rim almost like clock work at 6 months into riding. Since carbon rims, I still break them but I get at least 2yrs or more out them!

I also have a Frontier pick up and I have to lift the bike up to about head level to put into the back of my truck. This is about the only time I notice how heavy my ebike is and a few pounds here and there do make difference.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> . Since carbon rims, I still break them but I get at least 2yrs or more out them!
> 
> This is about the only time I notice how heavy my ebike is and a few pounds here and there do make difference.


Oh, there are lots of good reasons to get carbon wheels, if you have the budget. They are indeed (at least these days) quite a bit more durable than aluminum.

But the weight *just doesn't matter*. Sorry, seriously - I have been a bike industry guy for almost 20 years and a pro racer almost that entire time as well. People go crazy for weight savings, but it's because our brains are wired to optimize quantifiable things (ie, something that can be measured in grams) rather than make actual hard (and more subjective) choices about performance.

If you just sit down and do the math, you and your bike are what, 100,000+ grams? Even a 1000 grams weight savings is not generally noticeable in that context - not even if it's your wheels. Sorry. You might think you're feeling something but it's probably 90% placebo/"new bike feeling" effect.

I know people who know how exactly much their stem weighs but have no idea what their max HR or lactate threshold is, and have never done back to back runs on a trail on different tires. They're the figurative drunk looking for his lost keys under the streetlight because it's too dark to easily search anywhere else.

E-bikes are a great opportunity to ditch your weight obsession, that's my point here - with an assist, you *really* don't need to worry about counting grams.

Spending money and time on weight is, at best, doing nothing for you. At worst it's costing you money AND making you slower on the trail (ie, running lightweight tires that have horrible traction and flat a lot).

If it's "dismissive" to try to help people make choices that will save them money and improve their ride, then by all means, I'm being dismissive.

-Walt


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Walt said:


> Oh, there are lots of good reasons to get carbon wheels, if you have the budget. They are indeed (at least these days) quite a bit more durable than aluminum.
> 
> But the weight *just doesn't matter*. Sorry, seriously - I have been a bike industry guy for almost 20 years and a pro racer almost that entire time as well. People go crazy for weight savings, but it's because our brains are wired to optimize quantifiable things (ie, something that can be measured in grams) rather than make actual hard (and more subjective) choices about performance.
> 
> ...


Sounds like good advice! I totally understand. On my non-ebike and me being at 205lbs. Every now and then I'd get weight weenie urge and get some XC tires for my Trek Fuel. Those tires never felt solid in turns and I'd ultimately tear a hole within a few months.

Now on the ebike, the Tazer comes with heavy duty Maxxis DHR EXO+ casing, front 29" 2.6 and rear 27.5" 2.8. I just ordered up the same rear tire. This bike will only see grippy, 900grams or heavier tires.

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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Agree with Walt, with a motor there's no real need to obsess about weight too much. Don't chase grams, chase grins.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

life behind bars said:


> Agree with Walt, with a motor there's no real need to obsess about weight too much. Don't chase grams, chase grins.


Chasing grins is a given! That's what ebikes are all about! You have so much fun riding, you forget that you're actually getting a very good workout in the process!

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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

craigsj said:


> Did it weigh 23 pounds?
> 
> 5 or 10 pounds doesn't hurt so long as it's not in a bad place, like at the ends of the bike as unsprung mass. Unfortunately, eMTBs are often 20 pounds heavier than their unassisted siblings, so it's an interesting discussion.


It felt poppy! Weighed 27 but did lose 2 lbs on wheels tires.

For an ebike, chase lbs, not grams. But it does matter. Otherwise, there would be a lot of grinning on 60 lb bikes. #not.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Rotational mass is, rotational mass. The only weight savings I’ve done on ANY bike is fast carbon wheels. They track better and I believe is the best bang for your buck. When you ride your ebike 95% of the time in ECO mode, you will notice 2-3lbs of unsprung weight. Corvette or suburban?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

craigsj said:


> I'm following this logic, Walt, but it reminds me of another recent e-bike thread where you claimed to be a sophisticated enough rider to appreciate the value of a short rear center. Can you explain how a short rear center improves bike handling without directly contradicting your claim here that weight differences are "90% placebo"? A short rear center, after all, merely controls the length of a lever arm when you stand, thereby impacting your ability to lift the front wheel. I'd argue that overall weight of the bike, at eMTB weights, matters more.
> 
> The bike industry is filled with arguments over trivial details that ultimately matter a whole lot less than the potential difference of several pounds on an eMTB, so while I agree with you that weight differences can be overblown, I think they're at least as important as, say, the unimportant details that drive riders to seek out custom frame builders to optimize the last few millimeters of reach or have bragging rights on the shortness of their chainstays.


Sure, changing the wheelbase (no need to be lifting either/both wheels off the ground) has a dramatic effect on both how easily the bike will corner, and how easily you can move YOUR mass (which is what matters) over the wheel you want to put weight on.

For example, I have a long john (cargo bike) with a big cargo platform on the front. The front wheel is something like 4 feet in front of the BB/COG. If you try to take a turn on that bike at speed, with no load, you'll make the front wheel lose traction almost immediately. No amount of shifting your weight forward (short of climbing off the saddle and onto the cargo platform) can fix that.

On the other hand, if you have a bike that's too *short* and you're trying to roll off a ledge, you can end up with the pivot point (front hub) *behind* your COG and we all know what happens then!

The rear end of the bike matters too. Want to put your front wheel up on a ledge? J-hop? You'll have a lot of trouble doing that on, say, a tandem, or a Big Dummy (though it is still possible).

Those are extreme examples, obviously. Most people don't need super short chainstays, as you point out. If you can't roll up to a curb on flat pedals and bunny/j hop it successfully, then you should be on a nice long safe bike that's hard to crash and enjoy yourself. That's *mostly* what commercial e-bike geometry is intended for.

Geometry matters a lot, and chainstay length/front center/wheelbase are important because of what they allow you to do in terms of positioning yourself relative to the wheels. It is indeed about mass - but it's not the bike mass that matters, it's the 200 pound sack of water on top of the bike.

As a fun experiment, you can get a couple of bathroom scales (you may need a friend to help) and test the weight distribution between wheels on your bikes in different (seated, standing/neutral, attack, etc) positions.

Hope that helps.

-Walt


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Gutch said:


> Rotational mass is, rotational mass. The only weight savings I've done on ANY bike is fast carbon wheels. They track better and I believe is the best bang for your buck. When you ride your ebike 95% of the time in ECO mode, you will notice 2-3lbs of unsprung weight. Corvette or suburban?


Should i put my 1290 gram wheels on the ebike? 

Give a couple beers in the garage and weird stuff happens/


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree on that one, Craig. I think geometry (even subtle changes, including chainstay length) matters a lot and weight (if we're talking a few pounds) doesn't matter at all. You're welcome to spend your money/time on making your bike lighter if it makes you happy, of course.

-Walt


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Steel as a frame material hides the bike's weight well. Carbon seems to reflect the weight and drag more clearly--if you're having a good day, it'll feel great, but if the bike feels draggy, and there's a headwind, that carbon frame will not hide that. On that carbon frame, I'll be hunting for that one gear that feels easy to hold, but have the resistance I like, while I could just be mashing along in 1-2 gears higher than I believe I should in steel, perhaps only hunting for a gear if I feel that it'll raise the current speed that I can sustain. I fell in love with this trait of steel, of how it sort of softens pedaling resistance and smooths out power transfer.

Short WB makes the bike more sensitive to weight shifts, able to pitch up and down easily, both from the rider and from ground impacts. This is the primary geo figure for making a bike playful. The shorter you go, the more BMX-like it gets.

How RC length figures into this all, is relocating the body's CoG forward and back. Make it short, and the body's CoG is closer to the rear axle. Extending the FC does something similar, moving the body's CoG away from the front axle, so more weight is over the rear. Have too much weight over the rear and you're going to have issues keeping the front tire from washing out, and perhaps issues with getting rear flats (or worse), but I guess you'll enjoy how it takes less effort to lift the front...

My MTB is 40+ lbs and I'm still doing all the things I did on my 30 lb bikes that have shorter RC and WB, though it did take about 1 month to adapt. The added weight is mostly in the frame, BB area, and rear tire, so it's quite manageable. If it were on the bars, hanging off the seat, attached to the top tube, attached to a rear rack, etc. I imagine it would've taken more time to adapt and re-learn techniques to emulate the riding style I had on my past bikes.

Just in the past week, I went from a Rocket Ron 27.5x2.6 SS to a Eddy Current rear (probably double the weight, at 1525g). I'm super happy with the change. It did slow me down a bit, but I think what it did for me is that it made the parts I loved to ride into a fresh new experience that was even more enjoyable, while the Rocket Ron made the "transfer" parts merely less of a sufferfest, compromising greatly on versatility and durability.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

fc said:


> Should i put my 1290 gram wheels on the ebike?
> 
> Give a couple beers in the garage and weird stuff happens/


If you got 'em, run 'em!


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

craigsj said:


> OK, Walt, but I'll remind other readers what you led with in this thread:
> 
> So you can speak condescendingly about issues, but when challenged you won't defend your point of view.
> 
> I'm wondering how many riders would accept a 50 pound non-assisted bike? No one would agree that the extra weight doesn't matter then. Motor power is irrelevant to a rider's ability to maneuver the bike itself.


You got 1 here. I actually did ride a 50+ lb ebike unassisted and could keep up with a group and climb steeps. I speculated that I couldn't, but when I actually tried, it wasn't as bad as I feared; I surprised myself every time that I convinced myself to just try, or that there's only one way to find out for sure.

I didn't like the ebike more cause of its geo, than its weight. Its chainstays (RC) were way too long for how long the front is. Even with a -2d angleset, and 170mm fork to push the front out another 30mm or so, it wouldn't have gotten close to getting my body's CoG back, and it was already a size L (I'm 5' 7"). The bike was way too front heavy, and it was a hassle to have to compensate for this when trying to ride drops, jumps, and enduro style descents, as the bike liked to rotate forward (OTB prone). With 445mm chainstays, I would've needed a 1275mm WB (830mm FC) to get my body's CoG where I like it. With 435mm CS, I would like a 1225mm WB, so the Shuttle comes dialed in L, a bit too long in XL, and a bit short in M. People don't realize that they have this bias--some prefer a SB130 over SB150 if they ride size large, and like the SB45 if they ride XL, while those who ride M seemingly like longer travel bikes like the SB150 better. Rather than realize that they were discovering their ideal the RC-FC proportions, these people are being dicks about how much travel they think is good, saying people don't need more travel when their short travel bike rides this well.

I understand Walt's perspective, especially now that I have a custom geo steel FS myself. Why aren't you trying to figure it out? You seem to act like you're representative of a massive bandwagon and that the bandwagon, through a "collective hive-mind", can't be convinced that they're wrong by 1 person, essentially trying to outcast Walt and his wisdom, rather than even attempting to verify.

I did go through a weight weenie phase, but I've discovered that it's a waste of money. Based on how hard it is to sell all my weight weenie stuff, I do wonder if people have smartened up. I got a quiver of bikes sitting pretty, cause I vastly prefer my 40+ lb non-assisted bike.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I've owned and ridden non-assisted bikes (I used to sometimes use a Super8 with a Boxxer as an XC bike just for fun) that were 40+ pounds and it was never an issue, so yes, I would accept a 50 pound bike if it otherwise was what I wanted. 

Pretty much every late 90s/early 2000s DH bike was 40+ pounds. They were super fun bikes and I could maneuver them just fine. The only mountain bike I've ever ridden that was actually hard to get to do what I wanted it to was the Karpiel Armageddon. On that thing, you were just along for the ride - but that was because it had 12" of suspension and was designed to use like 5 or 6 of them in sag or something silly like that. 

Don't get me wrong - if I can have a bike that's lighter AND keeps all it's functionality AND won't cost me $5000 more, I'm all for it. Lighter is, all other things being equal, better. But in the real world you are sacrificing *something* (money, durability, traction, etc) to save that weight, and that's almost always a bad tradeoff.

-Walt


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

craigsj said:


> It seems like this to you because you hopelessly, and completely, misunderstand everything I'm saying.
> 
> Who has said anything about a "weight weenie phase"?
> 
> ...


Sure, blame others for your lack of being able to communicate clearly, accusing them of misunderstanding, condescension, and implying something about having an open mind.

The thread's about weight reduction, which I summed up as weight weenism, and relates to my own experience with my weight weenie phase. Someone's considering running 1290g wheels on an ebike, with others encouraging them.

Talk about condescending, you think I don't know how levers work and thought to school me? Or are you figuring that you can use semantics to define how a bike's components work just like that... if you think shortening an RC merely shortens a lever arm, comparable to a rock bar and fulcrum, you should be questioning your own understanding.

If I were to simplify it, it's like standing on a long trap door and trying to open it with a rope attached to the front end. If the bike's rear axle were the hinges, shortening the RC would move your feet to be closer to the hinges. Reducing the weight of the ebike would be like reducing the weight of the trap door and rope. To make it take less effort to open it, how would you do it? Some may suggest losing some weight yourself, or using technique to shift weight a bit more, getting stronger, or maybe lubing the rear hinge and making the fit looser (reducing rotating mass). Are you suggesting a longer RC?


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

46.3 Pivot Shuttle


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't know when or how this became about criticizing me, so I'll just finish by saying that if putting light parts on your bike/e-bike makes you happy, have at it. I think part of the appeal of e-bikes is NOT having to worry about that sort of thing, but YMMV.

It is indeed just recreation and in the grand scheme of things light bike parts aren't nearly as silly as a lot of other things people waste money on. 

-Walt


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

craigsj said:


> I haven't gotten you wrong, Walt. E-bikes are heavy; the thread was created so people would talk about what they'd done to address that. You chose to ridicule.
> 
> There's a remarkable degree of hypocrisy here, if you can adapt to 40-50 pounds bikes then 10mm of CS length is no problem. In fact, what's the point of custom geometry at all if you can adapt so easily?
> 
> ...


I'd much rather have 15 extra lbs added to the bike, than 10mm extra CS length added to a bike that didn't need it. That's 50% more weight, vs 2.5% more CS length... "*in my best craigsj impersonation* but it's under 5%, it won't be noticeable by most ppl, and 50% is like world changing."

The body gets stronger, and that strength can pass on to other bikes. I doubt that technique adapted to a bike with 10mm extra CS length would transfer well to others.

Depending on where that extra 15 lbs goes, it probably isn't just needless dead weight.

To me, that extra 10mm of CS length is driving like a car that has a tendency to oversteer and "stinkbug".

If I were to use the bandwagon effect to make a suggestion, I'd say that, more often than not, people just totally abandon the lightweight bike with **** geo (e.g. XC HT), in favor of a heavier bike with better geo (e.g. trail/AM bike), as their go-to bike. It's more like a revelation to ride better geo and discover things like long travel isn't so bad. To someone who came from nicer geo, and had to ride **** geo for some reason, it's more of a relief to get back onto nicer geo.

Speaking of being open minded, people are bound to experience that with ebikes, and heavier custom geo steel bikes, if they open up to it. Rather have a thread about making a bike more capable in a certain way, rather than just talking about lower weight. Is having transparency that people break parts what you want mtbr to be known for? Broken parts is bad press... I know other forums make fun of this one for asking questions like, "is this a crack?"


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

craigsj said:


> Thank you, Walt. I agree.
> 
> I don't think the motor is about making it so weight doesn't matter, but for plenty of riders it certainly can be. I think if weights can be brought down 5-10 pounds it broadens the appeal. That's just my opinion, of course, and I'm fine if you don't agree with that.


Heck yes. I've ridden a 55 lb and a 40 lb one. And there is a big difference on technical singletrack.

On commuter ebikes, doesn't matter. Fire road climbs, no biggie.

But on tech terrain where's there's a lot of slow, techy maneuvering, drops, jumps, braking, change of direction, portaging, yes. Even 5 lbs is noticeable. Of course it costs money.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'd personally just go for lower assist/smaller battery (or smaller range/smaller battery) if weight savings was the goal. I know that's not really possible with most of the OEM bikes right now, but there might be a market for a more minimalist e-bike that was 5 pounds lighter.

-Walt


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Walt said:


> I'd personally just go for lower assist/smaller battery (or smaller range/smaller battery) if weight savings was the goal. I know that's not really possible with most of the OEM bikes right now, but there might be a market for a more minimalist e-bike that was 5 pounds lighter.
> 
> -Walt


Lucky Walt !
Forget the rear suspension
drop the dropper
let the liquid home for after ride
VOILA most saved 5 pounds.
I do not charge for my secret upgrade/weight loss.
I do it for tips


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

51.65 lbs with Specialized Levo Comp alloy, $5900. Ohlins suspension, pedals, big bar









47.42 lbs Levo Expert for $8200. with pedals, headset tool, cage

The bikes usually ship with tubes. Both these bikes are tubeless now and saved about a pound.

https://reviews.mtbr.com/2019-specialized-levo-ebike-first-ride


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

craigsj said:


> If you were better informed you could do a better impression.
> 
> I agree, most riders are hard pressed to tell 10mm of CS length difference and I'd be interested to see a blind test done to prove whether any rider could. I recently watched a video where a DH pro was testing forks with significantly different offsets (over 10mm different). He said he could tell a difference when comparing back to back, but within a minute or two he adapts and then forgets which he is riding. People talk a lot...about a little.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Most other people would think that you would say that 15 lbs added to a bike would make most people's riding totally different, struggling to do any technical maneuvers. I saw a video in which a rider used a lightweight carbon road bike to perform trials-style riding out in the woods, and also used an AM FS bike to do similar trials riding, and he said that doing it on the lightweight bike was extremely scary and dangerous. People like to simplify things down to what they think is a common level of intelligence, but it becomes so generalized that it can be misinterpreted, and don't think they are at fault that others don't understand it the same way as them.

Satire aside, I was trying to suggest there's multiple ways to address the issue. The weight weenie approach is one, but wisdom was shared here that there's a trade-off, and that usually isn't a great deal. I was suggesting that perhaps that it would be good to add weight, perhaps replacing the lightweight rope system of that trapdoor analogy with something better suited to the task, and also suggesting that people can adapt over time.

People gotta expect some time to adapt. Took me a month to adapt to my bike, coming from mainstream bikes that were 12-17 lbs lighter and 5-8" shorter in wheelbase. I see going weight weenie similar to someone taking the complaints of someone who broke their thumb so seriously that they invest thousands into redesigning all sorts of things that require a thumb to grip secure, easier for them to use, before it heals and strengthens up, and getting mad that no one wants to develop their ideas, but in reality I think people probably just want an excuse to custom hot rod something, since I'm guessing they have no other creative outlet that they can proudly show off and get acknowledgement from others for.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

100% agree with what Walt is saying... only consideration regarding extra weight- it can be a significant factor for featherweight riders. For example: my ~115 lb wife is fine pedaling conventional sub-25 lb MTB's. She doesn't like the idea of operating a bike that weighs something > 1/3rd of her body weight (power-assisted or not).

I do not currently own an e-bike but some of my friends do and they are going crazy with lightening them up with a lot of $$$$ thrown at them to get in the vicinity of 40-45 lbs.

My bike commute is within range of the time I need to get to and fro (~38 miles round trip). At some point I may opt for an e-commuter/gravel rig but not likely in the near future. I'd hope to be able to set one up with a dynamo front hub to trickle charge and extend my range or power a stereo to blast 

Nirvana for me remains a rigid single speed for simplicity, reliability and SStoopidity (particularly on all day long rides)


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

46.3 with 1lb pedals on the expensive Pivot Shuttle. Big tires, mullet configuration


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

When we have some room i find it simpler to have a few bikes.
At 135 pounds i appreciate a light bike so i kept my 21 pounds 29 x 2.3.
For snow fun i have a fat 26x4.8 studded.
Dropping 3-5 pounds on my Emtb is the least of my concern.
It is like having a hammer, a screwdriver and a saw.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I'm 135 lbs too, and I got a 42 lb steel bike with draggy ass tires, and have no attraction to my 24 lb xc-trail bike (Thunderbolt BC blinged out w/Valor & XX or XTR lvl stuff) even though it has nice geo, with super short chainstay, progressive suspension, burly construction, etc.

It's like upgrading to a trailboss with rogue hoe and a few other attachments, from a garden hoe or square point shovel. It's more the extra size/bulk that is burdensome, due to how unwieldy it can get, perhaps if you're hauling it over fallen trees or unstable ground, where you might want to have a hand ready to stabilize yourself.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

ninjichor said:


> I'm 135 lbs too, and i got a 42 lb steel bike with draggy ass tires, and have no attraction to my 24 lb xc-trail bike even though it has nice geo, with super short chainstay, progressive suspension, burly construction, etc.
> 
> It's like upgrading to a trailboss with rogue hoe and a few other attachments, from a garden hoe.


I get the trailboss reference. $1000 McLeods!!


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

fc said:


> What was it box-stock? What have you done to it and has it made a difference?
> 
> How light do you want it to be ideally? I do find that the slower the bike is moving, the more I feel the weight. Like when it's in the garage, or lifting it onto the rack, I feel every pound.
> 
> ...


I haven't weighed my eBike and probably never will; but it's probably lighter than when I bought it because I put on a better fork and better shock; not for weight reasons, though. I'm ten pounds lighter than when I bought the bike. I agree with Walt that the extra power makes obsessing over bike weight unnecessary.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

hikerdave said:


> I haven't weighed my eBike and probably never will; but it's probably lighter than when I bought it because I put on a better fork and better shock; not for weight reasons, though. I'm ten pounds lighter than when I bought the bike. I agree with Walt that the extra power makes obsessing over bike weight unnecessary.


10 lbs lighter now with the ebike. Wow!!

Did you change your diet or are you just riding a lot more?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

hikerdave said:


> I'm ten pounds lighter than when I bought the bike.


Now THAT is weight savings I can get behind. You've probably added a year to your life. Kick ass.

-Walt


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Walt said:


> I'd personally just go for lower assist/smaller battery (or smaller range/smaller battery) if weight savings was the goal. I know that's not really possible with most of the OEM bikes right now, but there might be a market for a more minimalist e-bike that was 5 pounds lighter.
> 
> -Walt


Focus Jam2 Pro 29er.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

fc said:


> 51.65 lbs with Specialized Levo Comp alloy, $5900. Ohlins suspension, pedals, big bar
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are they smalls? How much more poundage is a small to XL Ebike? Same manufacturer. A pound??


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Gutch said:


> Are they smalls? How much more poundage is a small to XL Ebike? Same manufacturer. A pound??


Every bike is a Medium. Pedals are about 400 grams


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

This is interesting!!




Looks like 39 lbs. Pretty compelling for many. This is available for purchase today.

Imagine an Ibis e-ripmo with this system. 36 lbs. I think that will ride better than a 55 lb one.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

fc said:


> This is interesting!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is the coolest tech in eBikes I have seen. The ability to remove both motor and battery on the fly removes any 'legality anxiety' with owning an eBike. It sucks that a European company that lacks much of a dealer network (in the US) is leading the way on this but it won't be long before every company in the US will have a similar offering. Fauza absolutely crushed it with this motor. The video came off a little infomercially so I will withhold my enthusiasm somewhat until I see a more balanced review. Cost?


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Cost is about the same I hear as shimanonor Bosch. German company and good quality.

A couple of my friends have used it and they say it works well. It’s like Shimano in Trail mode at its peak. No Boost mode since its peak power doesn’t go that high.

I have a Look gravel bike coming with this motor. 27 lbs with the unit and 20 lbs with just a storage cavity.


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

fc said:


> 10 lbs lighter now with the ebike. Wow!!
> 
> Did you change your diet or are you just riding a lot more?


I had to quit commuting on my road bike because of SI joint pain and was too slow on my FS bike so I got the Haibike SDURO when I found one at a great discount. So back to commuting every day. I'm on the Keto diet to lose weight to help with my joint health so the usual combination of diet and exercise. Now I'm trail riding again as well - the eBike and Keto diet helps to avoid that post-ride hunger that would otherwise lead to weight gain so even though an eBike ride only burns half the calories I'm dropping more weight. I'm 6'1" and 199 lbs so not a lump but not exactly ripped.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

fc said:


> Cost is about the same I hear as shimanonor Bosch. German company and good quality.
> 
> A couple of my friends have used it and they say it works well. It's like Shimano in Trail mode at its peak. No Boost mode since its peak power doesn't go that high.
> 
> I have a Look gravel bike coming with this motor. 27 lbs with the unit and 20 lbs with just a storage cavity.


Although I enjoy my unassisted bikes, nobody with money is going to be purchasing a bike without e capability in the future.


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## dpdsurf (Jan 19, 2004)

My 19 Levo Expert size large is 47.26 lbs. Changed seat to WTB pure pro and tubeless.

I love this bike not only for the climbing but the descents. The only time I have noticed the weight as a hindrance while riding is on small jumps when you don't have time to pick up some more speed. Otherwise the stability of the weight and low center of gravity is amazing.

I think the sweet spot would be at 40-42 lbs.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

figofspee said:


> That is the coolest tech in eBikes I have seen. The ability to remove both motor and battery on the fly removes any 'legality anxiety' with owning an eBike. It sucks that a European company that lacks much of a dealer network (in the US) is leading the way on this but it won't be long before every company in the US will have a similar offering. Fauza absolutely crushed it with this motor. The video came off a little infomercially so I will withhold my enthusiasm somewhat until I see a more balanced review. Cost?


I totally agree with you.
I have seen other videos from that guy and calling them reviews is pure BS.
He never mentions any negative point even when there are some obvious.
Ya he says carry an extra or 2 or 3,, what is the real total cost???
What is the real total weight ???
It probably have some advantages but it has to prove itself.
Now many offer 300% assist, i could live with 200-225% but they need to have a transmission with granny gear.
I could live with 28 or 30 max Km/h, will we be capable to adjust the max? Obviously to no more than the legal max.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

The motor and battery will only get better, and the lighter bikes don't need as much power as a.heavier bike. This category "hybrid eBike" will become the only type of bicycle sold over 2000$.

It.also will be interesting to see power tools use this motor battery for trail building purposes.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

craigsj said:


> No reason to believe this is true. Motor technology is mature and battery technology has been stagnant for quite some time. If you buy a Fazua bike then it is what it is, just like any other. We aren't seeing continual upgrades of batteries or motors.
> 
> The Fazua form factor is locked into a 20 cell battery, that's its greatest weakness. It makes a pretty bike but with limited ability.


I think the motor and battery will absolutely get better, as it has. The greatest minds in biking are on it. The rest of tech world too.

Just look at Bosch. Their motor 4 years ago, cx line, and the one coming out. Very good progress.

There's big things in specialization, modularity, software. Instead of cargo bike motors, you'll get a motor built for a specific purpose.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

fc said:


> Cost is about the same I hear as shimanonor Bosch. German company and good quality.
> 
> A couple of my friends have used it and they say it works well. It's like Shimano in Trail mode at its peak. No Boost mode since its peak power doesn't go that high.
> 
> I have a Look gravel bike coming with this motor. 27 lbs with the unit and 20 lbs with just a storage cavity.


I think this would be a great bike if you ride by yourself or with normal bikes. I believe if you are riding with other ebikes, this bike would probably be under slightly underpowered and not have the same range. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> I think this would be a great bike if you ride by yourself or with normal bikes. I believe if you are riding with other ebikes, this bike would probably be under slightly underpowered and not have the same range. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Normal bikes ride with eBikes quite consistently. This system has infinite range as you just bring more batteries or pedal. It's rare that EBikers use full power on extended rides as it burns through battery energy and body energy. With a lighter bike, the power to weight ratio is probably similar to a heavier bike with a more powerful motor.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

craigsj said:


> Need another term other than "normal bikes", e-bikes are not abnormal!
> 
> Please, no "acoustic" or "analog" either. Where did this come from?
> 
> I say unassisted myself.


That's a pretty good one. I'll start using that when needed to differentiate.

fc


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

craigsj said:


> Need another term other than "normal bikes", e-bikes are not abnormal!
> 
> Please, no "acoustic" or "analog" either. Where did this come from?
> 
> I say unassisted myself.


Is a bike with a fazua motor system unassisted or assisted? Sounds like the forum is going to need a new category for hybrid electric.

Not looking for credit or anything, just pointing out that you are recommending a phrasing to me that I started using back in January...

2 wheels with an engine is far different then 2 wheels with a crankset and a silent assistance motor. Your attempts to make an eBike look bad only makes regular mtbs look worse. In the real world, nobody sees a distinction between assisted and unassisted bikes and all the concern trolling, thought-terminating cliches, and white-knighting of mtb bullies on the internet forums is going to change reality.

https://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/best-way-talk-ebikers-when-theyre-illegal-trails-1095713.html


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

figofspee said:


> Normal bikes ride with eBikes quite consistently. This system has infinite range as you just bring more batteries or pedal. It's rare that EBikers use full power on extended rides as it burns through battery energy and body energy. With a lighter bike, the power to weight ratio is probably similar to a heavier bike with a more powerful motor.


figofspee, I think you misunderstand what I was saying. My Tazer comes in at 47lbs and this bike comes in at 39lbs, that's an 8lb difference. But yet the Shimano has a stronger motor and bigger battery. Someone stated boost mode is about equivalent to Shimano trail mode. So if I were to ride with another biker on an Ezesty and me in trail mode, the ezesty would need to be in boost mode just to maintain speed with me. In other words an Ezesty would be at a disadvantage to other ebikes (Shimano, brose, yamaha, bosch).


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> figofspee, I think you misunderstand what I was saying. My Tazer comes in at 47lbs and this bike comes in at 39lbs, that's an 8lb difference. But yet the Shimano has a stronger motor and bigger battery. Someone stated boost mode is about equivalent to Shimano trail mode. So if I were to ride with another biker on an Ezesty and me in trail mode, the ezesty would need to be in boost mode just to maintain speed with me. In other words an Ezesty would be at a disadvantage to other ebikes (Shimano, brose, yamaha, bosch).


Sure, if we assume everyone is riding at max assist at all times. Who actually does that, though? I mean, if I ride by myself, sometimes I ride as fast as I can and sometimes I ride easy. But if I'm riding with others we ride together (at least on the climbs) even if that means some of us are riding hard and others fairly easy. Unless everyone is going to ride on max assist the whole time (which would be completely irresponsible on many trails anyway), it should be no problem to ride together.

-Walt


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

mtbbiker said:


> figofspee, I think you misunderstand what I was saying. My Tazer comes in at 47lbs and this bike comes in at 39lbs, that's an 8lb difference. But yet the Shimano has a stronger motor and bigger battery. Someone stated boost mode is about equivalent to Shimano trail mode. So if I were to ride with another biker on an Ezesty and me in trail mode, the ezesty would need to be in boost mode just to maintain speed with me. In other words an Ezesty would be at a disadvantage to other ebikes (Shimano, brose, yamaha, bosch).


There's a wide range of speed variation between riders on the same eBike. There is a wide range of output variation with motors rated the same as well. The Fazua motor will be slower in theory though.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

craigsj said:


> People like to talk about assist level like it's a measure of power output. It's not. That's the beauty of proportional assist.
> 
> Say you have two riders of equal size riding together. They will use about the same power to ride at the same pace. Let's say that one rides a bike with half the assist potential and battery size of the other. That rider needs to have a smaller portion of total power coming from assist so that their range will be similar.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

craigsj said:


> People like to talk about assist level like it's a measure of power output. It's not. That's the beauty of proportional assist.
> 
> Say you have two riders of equal size riding together. They will use about the same power to ride at the same pace. Let's say that one rides a bike with half the assist potential and battery size of the other. That rider needs to have a smaller portion of total power coming from assist so that their range will be similar.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying Craig! Using the Fazua system is only a disadvantage if riding with other higher powered ebikes. But if the Fazua rider is a strong rider no problem or generally rides by themselves, no problem. That would be my only issue with this system and the Fazua system is only 8lbs lighter in ebike mode. I'd rather have a 46lb ebike and another mtb bike in the stable than this system. But that's just me.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

craigsj said:


> People like to talk about assist level like it's a measure of power output. It's not. That's the beauty of proportional assist.
> 
> Say you have two riders of equal size riding together. They will use about the same power to ride at the same pace. Let's say that one rides a bike with half the assist potential and battery size of the other. That rider needs to have a smaller portion of total power coming from assist so that their range will be similar.
> 
> ...


A pre 2019 (and some 2019) levo has a 504wh battery and a fazua has a 250wh battery. Strapping an extra battery on a bike isn't a big deal for me, nor have I noticed a difference in charge cycles amung different size batteries. Having multiple batteries can be a benefit in that you can swap around batteries and give one a break. Having a lighter weight bike and lower power motor will in theory expand your range.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

craigsj said:


> Just because you haven't noticed any doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. It is highly unlikely that you've operated high energy cells significantly outside their design window anyway. Plenty of battery durability data available supporting what I've said, it's not imaginary. Giving one battery a "break" by switching to another doesn't improve its cycle life when its overtaxed under use.
> 
> I've created a new Fazua thread where discussion can be centralized.


Having researched batteries for several years, I have never heard of this problem. Why don't you post a link to a situation that further illuminates this problem. I would love to see the data that you are using to determine that a bigger battery will have 5 times more charge cycles or whatever you were claiming. I have pulled 1500 watts steadily from a battery the size of the Fazua without any noticable decline in battery life.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

craigsj said:


> People like to talk about assist level like it's a measure of power output. It's not. That's the beauty of proportional assist.
> 
> Say you have two riders of equal size riding together. They will use about the same power to ride at the same pace. Let's say that one rides a bike with half the assist potential and battery size of the other. That rider needs to have a smaller portion of total power coming from assist so that their range will be similar.
> 
> ...


Why would the Fazua rider be lucky to get 200 cycles out of their battery exactly? Do you have any knowledge or proof that backs up this claim?

In your scenario, the Fazua rider is getting similar mileage, pulling similar current, spreading the mileage out among an additional battery (or 2, vs a Levo's 700 Wh battery). Are you suggesting that the rider themselves would be displeased with a battery that as fallen to 80-90% capacity at 200 cycles, and would trash it, while the Levo rider wouldn't be displeased until they're at ~50% of original capacity after 1000 cycles, riding together with a Fazua rider?


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

craigsj said:


> I see no evidence that you know anything about the subject, otherwise you wouldn't be picking a fight over it.
> 
> There is a current thread on Endless Sphere on this very subject. In it, a member who does battery cycle life testing professionally posted this:
> 
> ...


I don't see anything there that supports your claim


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

craigsj said:


> I'm not surprised, nor am I interested in convincing you otherwise. I post so that open-minded people can learn something.


It shouldn't be hard to find a quote from an expert saying that a 500wh battery gets five times as many cycles as 250wh battery if that was the case.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

craigsj said:


> Since I didn't say that, why would I look for such a quote? Nice straw man, though, you and ninja run in the same circles.
> 
> Next time, read more and rage less.


If you don't want to back up your claim, that's your business.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

craigsj, do you realize you've been oversimplifying your claims, leaving many questions regarding the interpretation, and insulting others for not getting it right?

We're asking questions cause you left out important context to explain why you said what you did. I'm trying to verify your claims. All we had to go off of, is our own knowledge regarding what affects how many cycles a battery lasts, and we don't know what we don't know. In asking you, we're figuring out what you know (and don't know), to ensure there isn't some misunderstanding.

You said 200W average, so I calc'd that they're both pulling 5.56 amps average (200W / 36V). I see that your quote talks about capacity retention in terms of not going over 1C. The Fazua battery has a 250 Wh 36V battery, which calculates to 6.9 Ah. 1C of that is 6.9 amps, and 200W average equates to a continuous discharge rate is 0.8C.

Now I question, what else can affect the number of cycles a battery will last? "Running it to exhaustion"? Does that mean until the Fazua systems stops assisting? Can you somehow bypass that to drain it further, or do you know for sure that Fazua's software allows for the discharge to be deep enough to affect the battery's capacity retention?

Are you suggesting something else? From browsing lithium battery cell data sheets, I see that they test the capacity after 500 cycles based on industry testing standards*, and often see it in the 60-80% range (this is why I questioned you in the first place). I also know that charging only to 90% preserves the battery better than charging to 100%. Not sure what else you could be suggesting. Are you suggesting that only draining the battery to 50%, rather than than whatever the motor stops assisting at, allows it last longer? Wouldn't you just call that a half-cycle, rather than a full cycle? But then you said the Fazua rider had 1-2 extra batteries, so they got 1 cycle on 2-3 batteries for each cycle on the Levo battery. Perhaps you believe that having a continuous discharge rate of well under 0.8C, contributes to allowing the battery to last 1000 cycles instead of 250?

* I recall reading that the industry testing standard drains the battery quite low, and charges it to 100%. Do you assume that Fazua does the same for draining, and for charging?


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

craigsj said:


> and yet it's always the same few people who, unsurprisingly, don't "get it right" and consistently ignore the most basic things I've said in order to argue with me. Sure, it's my fault.
> 
> Except that his recommendation is ½C, not 1C, and the cells involved are designed for good cycle life at far less load than that. High energy cells are meant for things like laptops where the expectation is a steady load that results in several hours of runtime.
> 
> ...


Is there really an argument? Looking at my last posts, it's just me asking questions for clarification. In awaiting a reply, from someone who seems to be well informed enough to put numbers to their claim, I instead learn that you'd rather be a dick than to answer any of the questions with anything but your opinion, or someone else's opinion.

I ended up just researching things myself: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Sounded like a pain in the ass to follow some of the practices, like charging to 75% and making rides short enough that you only discharge to 65%, and recharging back to 75% to preserve the capacity of the battery. Seems hilarious to use your capacity in such a way. I then question, how many miles you can get in a cycle. I'll be generous and say 1 mile per 10 Wh, so 25 for a Fazua, or 6250 miles in 250 cycles (lets just say the ebiker gets more fit to offset the gradual capacity drop), and 70 for a Levo and 70,000 miles in 1000 cycles. Yea, maybe the weight of that 700 Wh battery is needless unless you're using all that capacity...


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

The Fauza batteries are only 350 bucks, so it's not a big deal to have a bunch lying around. If you rotate them and don't lose them, then it's doubtful that they would decrease significantly before the bike reaches it's replacement point, I would love to be proven wrong though. Does anybody else want to take a crack at explaining how you would get 1000 charge cycles out of a levo battery but only 250 out of a fazua battery?


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## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

dpdsurf said:


> View attachment 1254163
> 
> View attachment 1254165
> 
> ...


That would be nice, but I don't think it will happen soon. That's a nice light bike you've got. I still would put light weight last on my list of desirable attributes for a bike, though. Especially after having bought a lightweight "all mountain" wheelset that paid me back in broken boutique spokes and frequent ratchet replacement. And no thanks on a bendy titanium casette either. Steel is real. I did take a risk on an aluminum chainring though; we'll see how that works out.

Nice bike!


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

craigsj said:


> Already been done. If it hadn't, you wouldn't posting about it at all.
> 
> But who cares, right? Batteries are cheap, we can just leave them lying around, and we'll get rid the bike before there's a problem anyway.


I was just speaking hypothetically, and it was 200 not 250, my mistake. I love to learn new things and I am a quick learner, but you haven't explained yourself to my satisfaction. If you want to show your calculations, I would love to see them.

For the record, the Specialized battery is 1200 dollars or 1.70$ per WH and the Fauza battery at 350$ is 1.40$ per WH


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Well i have no need to argue.
Mine is the best.
21 pounds bike, i had days over 6 hours without any recharge.
It has been so long that i forgot where i left the charger of my light weight amazing bike. I paid under 1,000$US for that lightly used wonder.
I expect 15 years without buying a battery.
I guess it is a smart bike.


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## dpdsurf (Jan 19, 2004)

hikerdave said:


> That would be nice, but I don't think it will happen soon. That's a nice light bike you've got. I still would put light weight last on my list of desirable attributes for a bike, though. Especially after having bought a lightweight "all mountain" wheelset that paid me back in broken boutique spokes and frequent ratchet replacement. And no thanks on a bendy titanium casette either. Steel is real. I did take a risk on an aluminum chainring though; we'll see how that works out.
> 
> Nice bike!


Thank you. Yeah I'm really not that hung up on the weight either. I'm learning more and more how to use the motor to get momentum up for small jumps coming out of corners. I just ordered some maxxis DH tires which add weight, but I'm hoping I'll carry more speed in the corners with them.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Here we go, dialed for now.

43.76 lbs for a medium with cage, flat pedals and 700wh battery.

I should have a 500 battery soon. Should be under 42 lbs. I can throw it onto my truck now with ease.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

fc said:


> Here we go, dialed for now.
> 
> 43.76 lbs for a medium with cage, flat pedals and 700wh battery.
> 
> ...


Pretty impressive with a 700wh battery! 
You are right weigh makes the biggest difference when moving the bike into a truck or inside an SUV. For me, I'd like to try and get my bike to around 45lbs for this reason alone, but without sacrificing durability. Not sure if that's possible, but I'll try as parts wear out!


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

mtbbiker said:


> Pretty impressive with a 700wh battery!
> You are right weight makes the biggest difference when moving the bike into a truck or inside an SUV. For me, I'd like to try and get my bike to around 45lbs for this reason alone, but without sacrificing durability. Not sure if that's possible, but I'll try as parts wear out!


Yes, the slower the bike is moving, the heavier it feels. Thus around the garage, resting or charging or maintaining, it is a bear. Putting it on the truck or bike rack.... jeez. 50 lbs seems to be my limit for lifting overhead comfortably. So 55+ bikes are sketchy when tired and have awkward angles, etc. 40 lbs feels fairly natural.

Slow, techy speeds, 55 lb bike can feel heavy. 25mph... not so much.

I'll detail my changes later as I see which ones are good decisions. I love my SQLabs saddle and bars. Love the tires too as I can't stand the Butchers!!!


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I just came across a light weight, if you have deep pockets.
Focus Raven² 9.9 - Motor: Fazua Evation | Battery capacity: 252 Wh | Travel: 100 mm | Weight: 15.4 kg | Price: € 6999
The review is there
https://www.emtb-news.de/news/en/e-hardtails-on-test-a-battle-of-two-titans/


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## motoguru2007 (Dec 13, 2007)

mtbbiker said:


> Pretty impressive with a 700wh battery!
> You are right weigh makes the biggest difference when moving the bike into a truck or inside an SUV. For me, I'd like to try and get my bike to around 45lbs for this reason alone, but without sacrificing durability. Not sure if that's possible, but I'll try as parts wear out!


How did you get the bike down 4 lbs? DO you have a build sheet? or is your scale wrong...haha


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

motoguru2007 said:


> How did you get the bike down 4 lbs? DO you have a build sheet? or is your scale wrong...haha


alloy wheels to Enve M630
Butcher tires to Bontrager SE5 and XR2
stock saddle to SQLab carbon rail
alloy bar to SQLab carbon bar
DMR pedals to modded Xpedo flat pedals
changed specialized headtube tool to OneUp EDC
non-quick release axle
smaller rear rotor


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## motoguru2007 (Dec 13, 2007)

Can you tell me the stock wheel-set weight w/o tires? that and the tires seem to be the biggest hitters i imagine.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Tires and wheels and cassette. Biggest weight savings period. All rotational mass.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

motoguru2007 said:


> Can you tell me the stock wheel-set weight w/o tires? that and the tires seem to be the biggest hitters i imagine.


The enve wheels ar 1550 grams. Some of the best I've used since they're lights, strong and lively (unlike the old).

Front tire is about 750 and rear is 650.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I picked up an emtb by its top tube and, compared it to my 42 lb bike, thought its heft was abnormally high, despite only being 8 lbs more.

To me, my 42 lb bike felt more like a mattock, while the emtb felt more like a 5 gallon bucket full of rocks. I guess its CoG was a bit high, while the weight on my bike was more low and at the ends. Was easy to get my bike up onto its rear wheel to roll around upright, but the emtb was a bit more unwieldy.

I'd say screw the sleek look, and get the battery even more low and centralized than it currently is...


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

fc said:


> The enve wheels ar 1550 grams. Some of the best I've used since they're lights, strong and lively (unlike the old).
> 
> Front tire is about 750 and rear is 650.


Have you ever ran these hoops? I have these on my Jam2. Best carbon wheel I've ever ran.


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## ahokin (Sep 23, 2019)

fc said:


> Yes, the slower the bike is moving, the heavier it feels. Thus around the garage, resting or charging or maintaining, it is a bear. Putting it on the truck or bike rack.... jeez. 50 lbs seems to be my limit for lifting overhead comfortably. So 55+ bikes are sketchy when tired and have awkward angles, etc. 40 lbs feels fairly natural.
> 
> Slow, techy speeds, 55 lb bike can feel heavy. 25mph... not so much.
> 
> I'll detail my changes later as I see which ones are good decisions. I love my SQLabs saddle and bars. Love the tires too as I can't stand the Butchers!!!


Subtract 10lbs for city commuting. I tried a 30ish lbs commuter eBike for a while and that was just manageable. Lifting these things up a bunch of stairs, through elevators, etc. can be brutal.


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## shreddr (Oct 10, 2009)

36lb Focus gravel bike










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

Compromising on tire grip to save weight is not smart.

Also, weight on a bike is much less important then aerodynamics and tire rolling resistance, and yet people try to find light tires when in realize they should shop by traction vs rolling resistance. 

For a manual bike, I go for low rolling resistance - maybe a Nobby Nic ADDIX. For an eMTB, I go for grip - maybe Eddy Current, Magic Marry, Wild Enduro, or DHR2/DHF.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

The important factor is where is that weight placed on the bike, the lower the better.
Another factor is what type of riding are you doing on the ebike.

I have never weighed any of my ebikes, but I have had the large, heavy batteries placed 
1) Inside the triangle has always been the best location.
2) Ontop of the rear rack.
3) On ONE the side of the rear rack.
4) Split battery back on both sides of the rear rack.
5) I had a bike with a downtube that was about 4" wide from headset to just above the bb, it was for some old ancient lead acide batteries.

What would be ideal is having frames available from the major brands, and mid drive motors from BBSHD/Cyclone/BigBlock that can fit at the bb area. Then would install the highest capacity 18650's in the frame. Hopefully in a cpl yrs the capacities will increase to the high 3Ah's (No need to state in mAh). Perhaps some prismatic pouches that fit a purpose built frame would suffice too. Its all about Wh/cm^3 for me, not so much Wh/lbs. 

Custom frames look awesome, but a ton of work and too many tools required.


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