# How do you deal with destructive riders



## GatorB (Jan 9, 2010)

I have an issue Im trying to deal with. My trail is down here in central Florida and sugar sand is our biggest problem. We have figured out how to stabilize the trail but now that the trail is flowing great and fun to ride we are attracting the racer crowd. The problem is they love to lock the rear break in corners to rotate the bike around to get thew the corner faster. This is breaking up the soil and causing the corners to turn to sand. This sand flows down the trail with rain water and collects and the bottom of the hills causing huge sand pits. Over the last month I have watched a corner go from good hard pack to a sand pit that I will now have to fix. Now people try to avoid the sand by going around it and making the trail wider acerbating the problem. Any suggestion on how to stop them from using this technique.


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

Leave it alone.
Let it get so bad people have to walk it. Hang a sign saying trail erosion caused by skidding, next work party such and such... Hang the sign where people are going around so you block the widening while you're at it.

Try to get support for armoring your corners with some kind of pavers. i know people don't like anything but dirt for their tread, i understand that, but in your case i don't see how you're going to get around it without getting frustrated and giving up altogether. i mean you can't control everybody, and you can't just built straight trails to compensate for sloppy riders.


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## smelly (Jan 15, 2004)

What he said. And don't be afraid to say something. Plenty of casual, non-accusatory ways you can spread the word about people riding in ways that destroy the trails. 

A couple years ago, we had a couple trails that racers were training on, and they annihilated them. They'd take any shortcut they could find, ride on the sides of the trail, etc. This made me realize there were two problems. 1, many of these riders weren't educated in trail etiquette, and 2, the trail needed more pinch points and improved flow to guide riders in a certain direction. Making some pinch points and changes in the trail created disincentives for them to ruin the trail.


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## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

How about make corners that they can get around fast without rotating the bike?


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## GatorB (Jan 9, 2010)

We have decided on a 3 prong approach. We are going to fix the 3 bad corners and reroute the worst one. Then we are going to post a sign up front that list the things that cause trail damage. Last we are going to get in the ears of the local shops that support and sponsor these guys and ask to spread the word. I dont want to be a jerk or a trail Nazi and I dont think direct confrontation is the way to go about it so that would be my very last resort. So I guess we will see if it works.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Hire an army of homeless people to keep em' in line...


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## Berkley (May 21, 2007)

Punch em in the nuts!


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## TunicaTrails (Jun 29, 2009)

I agree with this. About the racer types: if you say so, but... Skidding the rear is poor technique and not faster, more like what beginners do. A trail should be able to stand up to some degree of abuse. I am certainly aware that not all soil types are optimum but how you armor your trail should be tailored to it. In similar soil types I've seen a lot of creative work done with wooden berms and such things.



epic said:


> How about make corners that they can get around fast without rotating the bike?


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

Another solution is to keep people from getting going so fast in front of sharp turns in the first place. You do this with flowing curves, grade reversals, choke points, etc. 

High and mighty posters like to go on about how horrible skidding is but we all do it. We all hop our back wheels under braking.


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## anthony.delorenzo (Aug 17, 2006)

Another idea would be to berm the corners so people can rail them without skidding.


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## ray.vermette (Jul 16, 2008)

^^ What both of them (zrm & anthony) wrote. Alter the route to either control & reduce speed so skidding isn't an issue, or alter the route so riders (skilled or otherwise) can carry speed through the sections without skidding. Or armour it. Or do all 3 or a combination thereof. Sounds like you are doing some of this in your three prong approach, so that's good to hear.

Educating by erecting signs and spreading the word at local shops will help a bit, for a while, but only while the signs stay up and the shops continue to spread the word, and it won't make any difference when it comes to inconsiderate riders that know they are damaging the trail and continue to skid anyway. 

Altering the trail so there is no need to skid in the first place is a much better solution, if the terrain allows it and you have the manpower to do it. 

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

anthony.delorenzo said:


> Another idea would be to berm the corners so people can rail them without skidding.


His tread soil won't allow him to do that. You can build a berm out of sand, and it will rock out great for a week or two then you have to rebuild it.


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

zrm said:


> High and mighty posters like to go on about how horrible skidding is but we all do it. We all hop our back wheels under braking.


i guess i'm a high and mighty poster. i do skid my rear on rare occasions, usually when i just find myself too hot for a corner. But like so many people i've found proper position, better approach in line choice and speed, and way more front brake works most all the time.

If i ride 1000 corners i'll probably skid on 10 of em, maybe? And i never mean to do it. But i've seen riders who aren't really going that fast skid out. It's poor form in ride style in my opinion.

i'm not saying this to say i'm awesome, there are tons of riders that can blow me out of the water, but i've been riding long enough and i'm good enough to know...

But many times if you are in the backcountry you don't want to hit race pace anyways. Not the point of the ride. Still fun to rail, but the older i get, the more i'm focused on control in my lines, and dancing to the flow of the descent.

But beyond all of that, going back from cause to effect. If you're dealing with sand, or any type of soil that isn't loamy, you're just hosed on corners. They are not going to hold up well to people that rail, or are sloppy riders.

So it's not even so much the players as the game in this case. But since the game has sugar sand, that's the hand you're dealt, gotta educate to your environment. Get help, and i will say again, use pavers if you can.

When we built under a freeway with soil predominantly silt and fine clay (diarreah dirt), we were gifted a large amount of sandstone pavers shipped in from China, that were used for Seattle city streets in the early 1900's. Original Seattle road. A ton of these things are buried under Seattle streets, and i have to say for a paver tread surface it could not be beat. Perfect grippy hardened tread surface.


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## anthony.delorenzo (Aug 17, 2006)

Skookum said:


> His tread soil won't allow him to do that. You can build a berm out of sand, and it will rock out great for a week or two then you have to rebuild it.


Can always import better material though.


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## ray.vermette (Jul 16, 2008)

...and you can always armour the berm with pavers or other material. Someone posted some pictures in a thread here recently where they had used concrete patio stones to armour a bermed corner in soft sandy soil. The stones had a criss-cross pattern that resembled lattice work. Can't locate the thread at the moment....

Anyway, regardless, the point being, if you alter that section of trail to control speed so skidding doesn't happen, or harden it so that skidding isn't an issue in the first place -- if those are viable options for you -- then you fix it for good. 

Erecting signs, spreading the word, or allowing the trail to further degrade to send a message to the destructive riders -- these things might work for a while. Then they stop working and you have to fix the trail again. 

Go for the permanent fix the first time.


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## GatorB (Jan 9, 2010)

The issue is not the occasional skid from going to fast its the 8-10 riders turning 5 laps a day 3 days a week wearing out the tight corners. The problem is my soil type is unique I have a 3 to 6 inch root bead and sandy soil over pure white beach sand. Once the soil and roots are removed the sand takes over and its hard to get a hold of. The trail is on a nature preserve and archeological site ( native American shell mounds) so the county will not allow us to bring in foreign material. What has been working great in most spots is to rake in leaf litter with the help of rain it usually packs back down. The IMBA trail building book does not really cover my type of soil or lack of. My next step is to re-rout the corner so its not so sharp 

I have built a few berms and they hare holding up great. I just mix in a bunch of leaf litter and pack it down. Its helping the down hill sections by creating a focus point at the end. Some of these section where 4 to 5 feet wide and causing bad sand erosion now these sections are down to 2 feet and becoming hard packed. :thumbsup:


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## anthony.delorenzo (Aug 17, 2006)

Sounds like a challenge. Would be cool to see some pics if you got 'em.


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## GatorB (Jan 9, 2010)

anthony.delorenzo said:


> Sounds like a challenge. Would be cool to see some pics if you got 'em.


I think thats what is driving me is the challenge. I will take some pic tomorrow if its not raining.


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

Yah that's a challenge. 

Are there any natural resources you could use to build a chicane before the hit the corner? Perhaps in your re-route to soften the corner you can introduce a chicane by using nearby trees? 

Good luck hope you get it dialed.:thumbsup:


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I wonder what would happen if you mixed a small amount of portland cement, or gypsum plaster, or lime, in with the sand. I've also heard sugar works. You can buy kaolin clay by the sack and make adobe (20% clay 80%sand). There are a lot of piles of asphalt pavement grindings around here, they might work for amoring and be free. With that type of use you almost have to adapt the trail to that new line.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

GatorB said:


> The trail is on a nature preserve and archeological site ( native American shell mounds) so the county will not allow us to bring in foreign material.





bsieb said:


> I wonder what would happen if you mixed a small amount of portland cement, or gypsum plaster, or lime, in with the sand. I've also heard sugar works. You can buy kaolin clay by the sack and make adobe (20% clay 80%sand). There are a lot of piles of asphalt pavement grindings around here, they might work for amoring and be free. With that type of use you almost have to adapt the trail to that new line.


Good ideas, but he can only use native materials. Really a tough challenge, so redesign the trail to control speed s all I can offer.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

slocaus said:


> Good ideas, but he can only use native materials. Really a tough challenge, so redesign the trail to control speed s all I can offer.


Ah yes, missed that. I agree. Sounds like the OP is already making use of some native soil binders. Those shell mounds might make good berm material. jk.


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## GatorB (Jan 9, 2010)

bsieb said:


> Those shell mounds might make good berm material. jk.


NO WAY! Im not getting cursed with the bad juju. There's already a Ninja squirrel that has it out for me. 
We have been getting great reviews on the trail lately, people are very happy with what we have been doing. :thumbsup:


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## GatorB (Jan 9, 2010)

We are also looking into using this as a very short term stabilizer. Using it 3 to 4 inches under the the surface with dirt and leaf litter piled on top. Its biodegradable non toxic and very eco friendly. Powdered Soiltac® Copolymer Soil Stabilizer & Dust Control Agent

I think the key is to hold the moisture close to the surface and the natural binders for as long as possible. We can get 3 inches of rain and two days later its dry as a bone.


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## obi_twan_kenobe (Dec 5, 2005)

I would probably also recommend using choke points. You can place the choke point several feet before the turns so that instead of skidding through the turns, riders are now pedaling out of them.


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## GatorB (Jan 9, 2010)

Seems the word got out and someone fixed the bad spots. Im going to choke it and reduce the angles of the corners. That should keep the problem in check. It also helps that the race season has started so the trail is getting less race traffic. We've gotten nothing but great reviews and happy feedback from the work we have been doing. :thumbsup:


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