# How many Lumens is Illegal/ Dangerous



## italianshox (Dec 10, 2014)

Recently bought a cheep Chinese bike like with 11 Cree XML-T6 Leds (Yes I know its 110W) . I know it is unnecessary, but it was a good deal (45$)

Anyway, when I have it on Max Power, it is insanely bright. The seller was claiming something in the range of 16000 Lumens, but it turns out to be closer to 7000-8000, which is still insane. 

While I use it mostly on trails, I also use it in the city at night, and I was wondering, is it safe, and legal to do so?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Using a light like that riding in town may not be illegal but it insanely dangerous. It blinds anyone in front of you making it extremely dangerous for you and them as they cant see.


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## italianshox (Dec 10, 2014)

I normally have it at lower power settings if there are cars around. Should I be worried about pedestrians though??


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

If the cops don't pull you over, then it's legal. Haha. If drivers are flashing their lights than it's probably too bright. 

It may be bright, but for $45 I doubt it's 7000 lumens. The battery isn't good enough for that. 

I'm curious which light you bought, can you provide a link?


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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

I have 22,500 lumens and it's insane on 110w. I have a friend who is an LED engineer and built it for me. If you look at it in the daylight you will see spots forever.

Can you send me link to these 8000 lumen lights. 16000 is a huge number, even 8000 is enormous.


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## Swissam (Apr 8, 2008)

irishpitbull said:


> I have 22,500 lumens and it's insane on 110w. I have a friend who is an LED engineer and built it for me. If you look at it in the daylight you will see spots forever.
> 
> Can you send me link to these 8000 lumen lights. 16000 is a huge number, even 8000 is enormous.


I want THAT on my handle bars.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I am curious, wth do you use that for, lighting up the side of a mountain or small town???? Lol. Focus that beam a little you could probably blind the guys on the international space station


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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

tigris99 said:


> I am curious, wth do you use that for, lighting up the side of a mountain or small town???? Lol. Focus that beam a little you could probably blind the guys on the international space station


Hillbilly shenanigans.


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## italianshox (Dec 10, 2014)

I just realised its 15 LEDS, not 11. Sorry for the mistake.

I am not able to find the exact model that I have because I got it on a ebay auction. Here is a similar "flashlight" style variant of the same light, but I cant promise its identical

UltraFire 15xCree XM-L T6 5-Mode 16000-Lumen LED Flashlight Torch(4x26650/4x18650) - High Power Flashlight - Led Flashlights


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

If the head is built anything like that flashlight, id give it more like 4-5000 that's if it was one of the decent versions. Couldn't handle any extra heat, head it just too small. Those moron Chinese sellers keep thinking cree emitters put out 2000 lumens per emitter, the XML dont even put out barely 1000 each. And run hot.



That said its still insane light, and even on low its dangerous because itll blind drivers. 200-300 lumens pointed at a down angle is about max before you start blinding ppl.

You'll fi d out quickly the limit of lights on the road when you blind a police officer and get chewed out (and probably a ticket for using off road lighting on the road)


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I would use as guidance what cars have for headlights. A car headlight is about 1300 lumens and each car typically has two for 2600 lumens. 

This will, no doubt, cause the crowd that is worried about blinding people to get into the arguments about beam shape etc... The point though is that it is terribly common for lights on cars to be misaimed, for the road grade to cause the main brightness to be aimed at opposing drivers etc... but despite all that, it's been working for decades upon decades and people are able to routinely manage it on a daily basis. To that, I'd add the caveat that if it makes you safer, then within reason, go for it. I'd rather be annoying than dead.

J.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

The problem is that car headlights and bike lights are far different. Car headlights are specifically designed not to put the "hot spot" aka the front of the bulb, shining into the eyes of oncoming traffic. That's why even low lumens from an led is blinding, because the source isn't blocked, deflected then diffused.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

JohnJ80 said:


> I would use as guidance what cars have for headlights. A car headlight is about 1300 lumens and each car typically has two for 2600 lumens.
> 
> This will, no doubt, cause the crowd that is worried about blinding people to get into the arguments about beam shape etc... The point though is that it is terribly common for lights on cars to be misaimed, for the road grade to cause the main brightness to be aimed at opposing drivers etc... but despite all that, it's been working for decades upon decades and people are able to routinely manage it on a daily basis. To that, I'd add the caveat that if it makes you safer, then within reason, go for it. I'd rather be annoying than dead.
> 
> J.


I resemble that remark!
Mole


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

tigris99 said:


> The problem is that car headlights and bike lights are far different. Car headlights are specifically designed not to put the "hot spot" aka the front of the bulb, shining into the eyes of oncoming traffic. That's why even low lumens from an led is blinding, because the source isn't blocked, deflected then diffused.


But this only works if the (a) headlights are aimed properly and (b) as long as two approaching vehicles are on the same plane. Either of those two conditions are violated in almost any night time drive and it doesn't result in a multitude of crashers - ergo, not a big problem.

Notice that there are now *many* cars with LEDs incorporated in their running lights, tail lights and even headlights and there are no issues nor will there be with bike lights with LEDs at those levels of output. Is it annoying to look directly at an LED light? Sure - so don't and follow driver's ed training that has been training new drivers for decades to not look directly at oncoming lights. Note that it's also annoying to look directly at incandescent headlights.

I submit that a big reason people are looking at LED lights and finding them bright is that they are still novel.

Finally, I think it's safe to say that LED bright lights be they automotive or bicycle are not causing dangerous situations or you'd be seeing it in legislation and in newspaper headlines as well as numerous crashes. None of those things are occurring.

Can it be annoying? Sure. Am I willing to trade my safety and visibility to not be annoying? No. I think the case for the saying that the 2600 lumens on a bike is a reasonable amount is a strong one. It's what I've been doing for years now with no negative issues and no complaints. I have, on the other hand, had drivers tell me "nice lights".

J.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

What kind of light are you running that puts out 2600 lumens? I'm just curious.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

varider said:


> What kind of light are you running that puts out 2600 lumens? I'm just curious.


Lupine Wilma. Mine's an older one at 2400 lumens but I'll use it on occasion with a helmet light at 1200 lumens. Mostly I run the Wilma at about 1500-2000 lumens.

J.


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

nice!


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

JohnJ80 said:


> But this only works if the (a) headlights are aimed properly and (b) as long as two approaching vehicles are on the same plane. Either of those two conditions are violated in almost any night time drive and it doesn't result in a multitude of crashers - ergo, not a big problem.
> 
> Notice that there are now *many* cars with LEDs incorporated in their running lights, tail lights and even headlights and there are no issues nor will there be with bike lights with LEDs at those levels of output. Is it annoying to look directly at an LED light? Sure - so don't and follow driver's ed training that has been training new drivers for decades to not look directly at oncoming lights. Note that it's also annoying to look directly at incandescent headlights.
> 
> ...


There is alot of details and design info that being missed here. All vehicle lights are heavily diffused, or have a reflector in front of of the bulb (or go look at most headlight bulbs at the store, they have a textured rubber "cap" on the end) that the entire purpose it to not have the filament itself visible to oncoming traffic. Even older head lights, liek the big rectangular glass ones, where heavily shaded/diffused to around 45 deg of the filament (though not very effective) but those have been phased out by manufacturers for safety reason for better part of 20 yrs. Now most use the bulb with the textured coating requiring at least a 45deg view angle from the front before filament is visible, then behind a diffused plastic or glass headlight housing. Go newer like something as simple as my chevy colbalt, there is a reflector in front of the bulb increasing the angle required to bring the filament into view, where you basically are almost along side me, at which point lens and reflector have majority of the light output going in a forward direction.

Even the LED bulbs that are out the phosphor is NOT visible from the front, still requires a decent angle before the phosphor is into view, again the reflector and lens are projecting the light forward, thus minimal brightness at the angles needed to be exposed to the brightest part of the light. The other "accent" leds have no where near the output to be an issue, especially in a shaded or "smoked" diffusion housing.

On something like Lupine, they use optics, which help alot, it puts something more than a clear glass lens between the eyes and the emitter. OP's light on the other hand, will cause issues if not pointed downward a fair bit on the lowest setting since there is NOTHING between the eye and the emitter phosphor.

Also headlight aiming for cars the issue is nothing more than the "focus" of the light. pointing them up a bit is the same as high beams where the direction of the focused portion of the light is concerned. when lights are pointed up/high beams, the focused portion of the light ends up right in your eyes.

Also your talking 4000 lumens (depends on vehicle) spread over a MASSIVE area versus 2000 focused into a relatively small area, without diffusion. so Cd/Lm intensity is FAR higher, which is insanely harder on the eye.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

italianshox said:


> I just realised its 15 LEDS, not 11. Sorry for the mistake.
> 
> I am not able to find the exact model that I have because I got it on a ebay auction. Here is a similar "flashlight" style variant of the same light, but I cant promise its identical


Take a look your ebay Purchase history and you would find your exact item you have bought.

BTW, what and how many batteries are you using to power this light?


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## bigflamingtaco (Oct 26, 2013)

So much disinformation, as always...

In the US, the NHTSA determins the MINIMUM and MAXIMUM lumen that can be emitted from an assembly, and in what direction. Currently, ALL of our LED bike lights are illegal due to creating way too much glare, both in sending too much light up and left from the housing, and in creating a bright spot on the road surface that reflects too much light upwards for those of us that have decent lights.

Only have 100 lumens? You most likely are still creating glare that exceeds the NHTSA's maximum.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

italianshox said:


> Recently bought a cheep Chinese bike like with 11 Cree XML-T6 Leds (Yes I know its 110W) . I know it is unnecessary, but it was a good deal (45$)
> 
> Anyway, when I have it on Max Power, it is insanely bright. The seller was claiming something in the range of 16000 Lumens, but it turns out to be closer to 7000-8000, which is still insane.
> 
> While I use it mostly on trails, I also use it in the city at night, and I was wondering, is it safe, and legal to do so?


Likely it's not as bright as claimed. Not the best design for road use. Just be careful not to blind on-coming traffic. It's not always about what's legal it's about courtesy toward others. If you don't have a good low mode be sure to tilt the lamp down a bit when in traffic. Use common sense and you should be good.


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