# Exercise Less = Longer Life / Healthier Heart



## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

More studies are proving how people who run or bike ride more than an hour a day actually have a higher risk of heart attacks compared to people who do not exercise at all.

The competitive marathon runner's average lifespan is much lower than a person who walks 30 minutes a day 4 days a week.

The people who endurance exercise more than 90 minutes a day have the same risk of CV disease as an obese diabetic person.

Moderation is key. Slow down and enjoy the scenery.
Stop and smell the roses.
No need to race to the top of the mountain, each time you do, you shorten your life expectancy.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

While I think there is more, much more, to the picture this is an interesting topic. I've often wondered if redlining my heart was good for it...really not sure. One thing I've always observed is long distance runners look sickly while sprinters are usually very aesthetically pleasing, there's something to that.


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## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

You should take the time to watch the video.


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## mtnbkrdr98 (May 27, 2004)

I saw or read somewhere that regular walking is the best exercise that we can do.
Along with eating healthy, maintaining a healthy weight, and getting adequate sleep.
I'll throw in flexibility work (yoga, stretching) and meditation as well.

I'm not going to stop riding mountain bikes, and attempting to "clean" steep or technical hills when they present themselves, but I'm not going to do high intensity stuff too often. I live in a mountain state and winters is around the corner which means indoor workouts. I think I'll keep the HIIT stuff to 1 day per week, and the rest strength and flexibility training.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

If I have to choose between riding hard and enjoying more of each day, versus half-assing it through life and living for a couple more years, I’ll choose the former every time. 






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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

Slick talking MDs typically make me suspicious and this guy turned out to be no different. Yup, watched it, yup, no science there, or at least none that he'd done or reported. Looked up his mentioned "just published in Lancet" and it was a "comment" rather than a crafted piece of work, calling into question someone's science that didn't fit nicely into his model. Strangely though, he declared "no conflicts of interest", something required by reputable scientific journals, but he is very much is in conflict due to his speaking fees and book sales. I'm not saying there isn't evidence that you should not exercise to exhaustion day-in and day-out, just saying he doesn't have evidence for where the line gets crossed, and it's certainly farther towards the "do more" than most westerners will be comfortable with. But, for those of you worried about it, I've got the following suggestion -- ride flat pedals (with the right shoes of course) and you'll be prevented from working too hard and for too long, allowing you to remain in that "Goldilocks" exercise window!



WHALENARD said:


> One thing I've always observed is long distance runners look sickly while sprinters are usually very aesthetically pleasing, there's something to that.


I totally disagree. I am of definitely in the "lithe and lean" camp when it comes to aesthetics.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Makes sense to me.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

The expression worked to death has some truth.

But I very much doubt the average amateur endurance enthusiast has too much to worry about because we tend to rest when we need it and then carry on.


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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

Pin it to win it!

No other way for me on the bike. 


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

A/C in Az said:


> More studies are proving how people who run or bike ride more than an hour a day actually have a higher risk of heart attacks compared to people who do not exercise at all.


Did he really say that? Someone who exercises 1:10 a day is more at risk for cardiovascular disease than a sugar munching couch potato? I watched the vid yesterday but must have missed that part.

Anyway, I heard him say no more than 7 hours of vigorous exercise a week optimally and I doubt many here have to worry about exceeding that. I'm guessing most on this forum would do better to exercise more, not less.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Velobike said:


> The expression worked to death has some truth.
> 
> But I very much doubt the average amateur endurance enthusiast has too much to worry about because we tend to rest when we need it and then carry on.


This.

I've seen similar reports about the super serious endurance athletes pushing into being unhealthy. And if you saw the reports on Simone Biles incredible performance, she was saying how her body hurts all the time. These people just push their bodies way too hard. But the average amateur endurance athlete likes to rest.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

I never remember any of my doc's or rehab people saying that I need to peg the needle every day to keep alive. I was told to eat right, and exercise CONSISTENTLY...I am supposed to watch my heart rate and keep it in a certain zone...

I never give any weight to these kind of media announcements...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Did he really say that? Someone who exercises 1:10 a day is more at risk for cardiovascular disease than a sugar munching couch potato? I watched the vid yesterday but must have missed that part.
> 
> Anyway, I heard him say no more than 7 hours of vigorous exercise a week optimally and I doubt many here have to worry about exceeding that. I'm guessing most on this forum would do better to exercise more, not less.


This.

Based on the number of fat dudes I see riding bikes who don't appear to be laboring at all at any point in time, we need to define "vigorous" and then compare it to what the average MTB rider actually does. I'd be willing to bet that very few if any people on this board actually meet or cross that "dangerous" level/threshold. And there are numerous "pro" category athletes here.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

He's since backed off on this proposition (video from 2012). I think his work focused solely on runners but I may be wrong.

I'll stick with Joe Friel's advice that intensity in exercise and training is indeed important, particularly as we age.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Whew!
I average 5:56 a week of vigorous exercise, according to my tracking app. 
Guess I'm safe.
I suppose I should drink more beer, though.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I listened to it yesterday on the other thread.
If we do not focus on details he was saying act your age.
I am 61 and i generaly agree.
I like to pedal/exercise daily, 1 to 4 hrs occasionaly 5, rarely 6.
I am not pushing myself probably 85% of the time.
Until 25 i had days of 6-12 hrs, Xcountry ski day/evening ski/nite dancing.
I talked with many regulars in lockers and sauna and over 40 many worked physycaly with knees or back issues, some were in rehabilitation mode after some accident.

Here in Canada with 4 seasons it is kind of natural to do more than 1 activity(like he mentioned).
Yoga, tai-chi have been proven for many years, many countries and the cool thing is we can do it anywhere. 
Enjoying the outdoors is way better than gym for me.
Plant based food mainly and leaving the big city works for me.


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

I've always believed in the everything in moderation thought process. The evidence for cutting down on certain foods and increasing others seems solid, but I don't believe in taking that to extremes. I'm still going to BBQ up a big 'ol T-bone every once in a while [as in once every couple months].

I've always felt the same about exercise. Occasional really hard/long rides don't hurt anything, but routine moderately strenuous rides are the sweet spot when it comes to realizing true lifetime health benefits.

Anyway, that's my belief and I'm sticking to it.


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## mtnbkrdr98 (May 27, 2004)

And can't forget Jim Fixx. I don't know if they found something genetic abnormality in his cardiovascular system or not, but that was a surprise when he passed.


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Strava should start tracking the top 10 slowest times on segments.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Scott O said:


> Strava should start tracking the top 10 slowest times on segments.


Woohoo! I get a badge!


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

chazpat said:


> Woohoo! I get a badge!


A badge? I will have many SOMs!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Is this an ebike commercial?


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

Ladmo said:


> I've always believed in the everything in moderation thought process. The evidence for cutting down on certain foods and increasing others seems solid, but I don't believe in taking that to extremes. I'm still going to BBQ up a big 'ol T-bone every once in a while [as in once every couple months].
> 
> I've always felt the same about exercise. Occasional really hard/long rides don't hurt anything, but routine moderately strenuous rides are the sweet spot when it comes to realizing true lifetime health benefits.
> 
> Anyway, that's my belief and I'm sticking to it.


Make that t-bone a porterhouse or a tomahawk ribeye and make it once a month; then I agree 100%.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

Whales swim every day and eat nothing but seafood, and they're still fat. Rabbits run everywhere and eat only greens and don't live 5 years. Tortoises don't do _anything _and can live to 450. Don't you dare tell me to exercise.

(Seen on FB)


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## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

From Dr O’keefe.
“The heart can be damaged by intense running or other forms of cardio, O’Keefe said. Long periods of extreme exercise — such as spending more than four hours a day prepping for marathons, ultra marathons, triathlons or 200-mile bike rides.”

He advised participation in only a few marathons or other extreme events in a lifetime, saying that amount is relatively harmless. He added: “Don’t make a career out of doing this over decades. It’s not good for the heart or blood vessels,”


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

There is this whole athletes and AFIB thing....


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Le Duke said:


> If I have to choose between riding hard and enjoying more of each day, versus half-assing it through life and living for a couple more years, I'll choose the former every time.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agree.

Redlining it every time I go out is just something I have to do. It's what gets me high.

I don't get physical to live longer, I do it to feel better now.

That said, I have my doubts to what this fellow might be professing. Didn't listen to much of it, but do his claims apply primarily to endurance type exercise? What about strength training? I do think that a lot of purely endurance type training, without strength training is less than ideal.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Lone Rager said:


> There is this whole athletes and AFIB thing....


Seems there's a connection but not yet solid evidence that it's causal. AF occurs in 25% of the general population as it stands.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

If your goal is just to be healthy, minimizing the amount of time you spend completely sedentary is far more important than doing lots of vigorous exercise. I have some issues with Mark Sisson, but if your primary goal is health and longevity his exercise prescription is pretty spot-on IMO (https://www.primalblueprint.com/blogs/primal-blueprint/the-primal-blueprint-4-essential-movements) and lins up pretty close with the recommendations at the end of the OP's video.

Ultra-distance efforts are probably unhealthy to some degree, especially if done compulsively without adequate recovery and coupled with a poor diet. The complete picture is probably more complicated and likely varies a lot between individuals depending on things like pace, genetics and other sources of chronic stress.

That said, I love long days on bikes, skis and feet. No way I'm going to stop that. There's no road or lift to the top of most of my favorite descents and it's a long way to the top, so I'm going to stay fit enough to get there. If I live to 80 instead of 85 because of that, so be it.

One thing that is certain is that humans are a lot like sharks--if we stop moving, we die.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Choose between quality and quantity?

I'll enjoy my 20+ hours of training a week.

Youtube videos are my lowest form of evidence. Even lower than forums and Facebook.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Crankout said:


> Seems there's a connection (AFIB to strenuous exercise) but not yet solid evidence that it's causal. AF occurs in 25% of the general population as it stands.


Stuff I've been reading lately certainly make the correlation if not establishing causation. Anyway, interested parties can google it easily enough and see what they think.


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## JimmyAsheville (Oct 21, 2018)

The only thing certain in this thread is that people believe what they want to believe, in order to convince themselves their way is the right way. The one word that strikes me in here is “compulsion”. The theory that more is better has limits.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

All I get from these health related threads is that old people are prone to hypercondriatitis 🙄

Seriously people, you can seek solace in knowing that whatever life you lead it will ultimately end in your death.

Be at peace and stop worrying, focus on being happy. I guarantee a happy person lives longer than an unhappy person.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Nurse Ben said:


> All I get from these health related threads is that old people are prone to hypercondriatitis 
> 
> Seriously people, you can seek solace in knowing that whatever life you lead it will ultimately end in your death.
> 
> Be at peace and stop worrying, focus on being happy. I guarantee a happy person lives longer than an unhappy person.


The last 38 years i focus on being happy/healthy.
For me being happy helps me being healthy and vise et versa.
Many humans forget they are animals.
Most species save energy but some think they are smart and waste energy.
It is more about being active than performing.
200 years ago many medecine man were into energy not pills.
Massage, accupuncture etc... are about energy flow just like yoga and tai-chi.
It can be birdwatching, gardening, walking in the mountains...
Talk about the ennemies, big cities, cellphones, cars.
Ya the idiot who takes a car to the gym and the escalator and a Smart phone.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Lone Rager said:


> Stuff I've been reading lately certainly make the correlation if not establishing causation. Anyway, interested parties can google it easily enough and see what they think.


I wanted to find out how 'too much' is defined, and there is no answer yet.

The key at our age is rest and recovery. There's a tendency for some of us to keep training and hammering as if 20 years our junior, myself included. My body lets me know when I've done too much.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> All I get from these health related threads is that old people are prone to hypercondriatitis 🙄
> 
> Seriously people, you can seek solace in knowing that whatever life you lead it will ultimately end in your death.
> 
> Be at peace and stop worrying, focus on being happy. I guarantee a happy person lives longer than an unhappy person.


No need to rush the end though.


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## milliesand (Jun 29, 2015)

Like others here, I exceed the "recommended" time doing a variety of exercises, yet rather be outside than sitting on the couch playing with the computer.

And if a "longer life" involves sitting in some assisted living home waiting for somebody to visit???? naaaaahhhhhh


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Sidewalk said:


> Choose between quality and quantity?
> 
> I'll enjoy my 20+ hours of training a week.
> 
> Youtube videos are my lowest form of evidence. Even lower than forums and Facebook.


Damn, 20 hours a week.

In the spring i got a few weeks of 20 hours, skinning. But in the summer, mountain biking, 12-13 plus weight lifting is all i get. And i do get beat up doing that

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Most "problems" modern society affords, (over worked, stress, to much mountain biking) can be offset by drinking beer.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rod9301 said:


> Damn, 20 hours a week.
> 
> In the spring i got a few weeks of 20 hours, skinning. But in the summer, mountain biking, 12-13 plus weight lifting is all i get. And i do get beat up doing that


20 hours is pro territory.

Even 10 hours a week is plenty for many people to race pro mtb class. That's about 5,000 off-road miles per year for most.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Amusing how the people on this thread that are in the danger zone immediately discount the evidence presented to them.....

You can wear other parts of your body out through excessive exercise. It's not a huge leap to consider that it is also possible to do so for your heart. 

PS I'm in the goldilocks zone for exercise according to this guy.... Oh yeah!


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

WHALENARD said:


> Most "problems" modern society affords, (over worked, stress, to much mountain biking) can be offset by drinking beer.


Just found my new doctor


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Amusing how the people in this thread who are in the"Goldilocks zone" think Dr O'Keef's conclusions are gospel...... 



jk. I'm in the purported danger zone and his research and advice makes sense to me, though it is a bit vague.


I'm with others here who think quality of life is more important than longevity. I may exercise a little longer and with more intensity than O'Keefe recommends for someone my age but it's fun and I feel great. Win/win in my book.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> 20 hours is pro territory.
> 
> Even 10 hours a week is plenty for many people to race pro mtb class. That's about 5,000 off-road miles per year for most.


Mine is a mix, mostly road right now, but still a lot of MTB.

While it really is something I REALLY enjoy doing, the 20+ hours does help come race season.



plummet said:


> Amusing how the people on this thread that are in the danger zone immediately discount the evidence presented to them.....
> 
> You can wear other parts of your body out through excessive exercise. It's not a huge leap to consider that it is also possible to do so for your heart.
> 
> PS I'm in the goldilocks zone for exercise according to this guy.... Oh yeah!


Yep, best I lead a boring life, so it can be longer. I'll also avoid jumping, hucks, and fun because that can lead to injuries, prematurely wearing my body out.

Anyone interested in a well beaten Enduro? Ridden hard, beat to hell, lots of fun, but life shortening?


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> All I get from these health related threads is that old people are prone to hypercondriatitis 🙄
> 
> Seriously people, you can seek solace in knowing that whatever life you lead it will ultimately end in your death.
> 
> Be at peace and stop worrying, focus on being happy. I guarantee a happy person lives longer than an unhappy person.


BAM!!

I know that at some point in my life, I am going to lose the physical ability to do things, so right now, I am doing as much as I can, so that when the time comes, I will not have any regrets.

I am enlisting "preventative maintenance" as much as I can now. Eat right, exercise, stretching, doing dumb shyt...doing smart shyt...doing spontaneous shyt....doing calculated shyt...it is all a balance.

I sort of fear the day I have to use a walker, or other mobility assistance, but also know that when that day comes, I will use the hell out of it and still try to max out my time


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I'm pretty sure no one here is trying to rush anything, if anything there is an abundance of angst over delaying the end.

The funny part about all this angst ridden posting (the entire forum??) is that mental health plays as much a part on longevity as anything, but we do little to reduce stress.

I work in mental health, trust me when I say that the average person is quite clueless as to how to manage their thoughts and feelings.

Stress shortens life.



Crankout said:


> No need to rush the end though.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Who wants to live to ninety anyway?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> Who wants to live to ninety anyway?


Probably a lot of 89 year olds.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm pretty sure no one here is trying to rush anything, if anything there is an abundance of angst over delaying the end.
> 
> The funny part about all this angst ridden posting (the entire forum??) is that mental health plays as much a part on longevity as anything, but we do little to reduce stress.
> 
> ...


So, where does a mental health nurse who is too stressed go for help in managing their stress?


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Radium said:


> So, where does a mental health nurse who is too stressed go for help in managing their stress?


*lol, edit: What am I doing in the 50+ forum?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Can't help but wonder if the AFIB occurs more in extreme athletes because of a lack of recovery more than the volume of exercise. 
Recently I'm really trying to up my MTBing to 3 intense rides per week of about 2 hours each time. Now I'm really fortunate as I'm self employed and rarely have to wake up on a schedule, something that few have the privilege of doing, and I'm just amazed how much rest my body needs while on this new riding schedule, commonly 9-10 hours of deep uninterrupted sleep most nights where traditionally I naturally awoke with around 7.5 hours per night and often less. 
It's an interesting topic either way but I think the over exercise danger doesn't effect that many really in a chronically stationary society. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

You folks have got to get over the "What day is this, and how many days do I have left?" question. If every day is your last, then you have your reality in focus. We aren't guaranteed a tomorrow.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Radium said:


> So, where does a mental health nurse who is too stressed go for help in managing their stress?


They go for a ride in the hills?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Radium said:


> So, where does a mental health nurse who is too stressed go for help in managing their stress?


I'm a Nurse Practitioner.

I like to ride my bike, hike, work on my house, and eat good food.

I also get a lot of satisfaction from the work I do.

Most people are not satisfied with their life because their expectations vary greatly from their experiences. As western culture has evolved, our expectations have grown faster than our means to fulfill said expectations, so we are left wanting.

If not for unrealistic expectations, I believe people would be more often satisfied than not, but it's hard to have reasonable expectations without the insight to begin the conversation,

So I'd suggest therapy, meditation, and avoiding thoughts that lead to negative feedback.

The single best thing any of us can do to improve mental health is to reduce social media exposure and to limit time watching TV.

... and not worrying about things you can't change.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

I worked for a statistical biotech shop for more than a decade and reported to the CEO (who was a PhD statistician). He would often say that it was advantageous to live your life without "wasting time" exercising, etc. 

I'd rather go biking/hiking and experience life with the potential of kicking the bucket sooner than I would if I sat on my arse the entire time


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Nurse Ben said:


> The single best thing any of us can do to improve mental health is to reduce social media exposure and to limit time watching TV.


I think this is the greatest truth of the past 10 years, if not 50!!!

this forum is the only form of social media I participate in...I only watch the 11'o clock news, some football when I am home, and hockey on tv....

I am so glad that I never got caught in the social media trap


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> I work in mental health.
> .


I do as well.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

edubfromktown said:


> I worked for a statistical biotech shop for more than a decade and reported to the CEO (who was a PhD statistician). He would often say that it was advantageous to live your life without "wasting time" exercising, etc.


Unless exercise is enjoyable!


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

One thing we could all do to mitigate oxidative damage from exercise is take therapeutic doses of antioxidants in supplement form. With over 750k peer review published studies on vitamins, minerals, polyphenols, etc. one might say the evidence here is impirical.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Suns_PSD said:


> Can't help but wonder if the AFIB occurs more in extreme athletes because of a lack of recovery more than the volume of exercise.


That is a valid point.

Certainly more research is required to understand the effects of excessive exersize.

I'm still amused with the "i must continue exactly as i am doing now and would prefer to die young that change what i do" group of dudes on this thread.

What if you adapted your fun to allow for many more years of fun? What if you could do it without reducing fun levels? maybe even increase fun levels????

There is more than one way to skin the cat of life.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

plummet said:


> There is more than one way to skin the cat of life.


There is, so why do you feel yours is the more valid choice?

Maybe I don't want to live longer, why must I be 100 years old spending the last 20 on an eBike when I can have a **** load of fun now, die at 60, and have lived it to the max?

Why fade out?


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

A big mistake people make when looking at studies like these is assuming causality. It may be possible that the people engaging in these marathon activities are more driven, competitive or OCD than the rest of us, causing more health issues. The people I know involved in Ultras could easily fit some or all of these categories (plus they're crazy).


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

ddoh said:


> A big mistake people make when looking at studies like these is assuming causality. It may be possible that the people engaging in these marathon activities are more driven, competitive or OCD than the rest of us, causing more health issues. The people I know involved in Ultras could easily fit some or all of these categories (plus they're crazy).


I ran ultras for fun, raced because it was a way to stay involved, but the best runs were the ones I did solo or with a dog, going way back into places it would normally take a few days hiking to access; places bikes are not allowed.

My favorite run story was when I was "forced" to go on a family cruise to Alaska. I was going stir crazy, I spent as much time as I could "surfing the prow" and waiting to dock. As soon as we'd dock I'd be at the door waiting to run, then I'd just run out of town and hit the trails, running for hours and hours.

Endurance sports don't have to be bad for you, nor do they have to be the product of an obsessive mind. Sometimes it's just nice to get out and go, get away from the trappings of modern life.

I think folks lose track of that sometimes, turning sports into work, but that's more the exception that the rule. Most of us are just looking to have fun .. with a little challenge along the way to keep things interesting.

As I get older, I find myself reflecting on life through the lens of working with others, some who are older than me, others who are much younger. I think we're all working toward the same thing but the way we choose to lead our lives is so varied that no one rule explains how or why we "end" the way we do.

Worry about the things you can control, let the rest be what it is.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Sidewalk said:


> There is, so why do you feel yours is the more valid choice?
> 
> Maybe I don't want to live longer, why must I be 100 years old spending the last 20 on an eBike when I can have a **** load of fun now, die at 60, and have lived it to the max?
> 
> Why fade out?


It's amusing to me that you think at 60 it's all over anyways. I mean 80, maybe you have a good point, but I know 60+ year old competitive motocrossers for gosh sakes.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm a Nurse Practitioner.


Yeah, but Nurse (practitioner. I know know plenty of you people professionally. I've been a Licensed Acupuncturist for well over 30 years.) I found that some of youse are good at projecting a sensation of serenity but still suffer from stress, be it financial, relationship, etc.

So what kind of therapy people do you personally find get you the most lasting, long-term gains/relief?

I've been a teacher of art very much like Tai Chi for close to 40 years, and I've always stressed (!) the mindfulness opportunity in that. Many benefits from my art, but I would have to admit that those of my patients/students who listen to my constant repetition of the need for consistent daily practice to find relief from their stress and virtually all of the ailments and complaints they suffer due to stress.

Many of the older Chinese who practice daily, in the traditional way, rear to their practice as their "health insurance". With a smile, of course.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Oh, by the way, for everybody here who knows of my situation, as of yesterday afternoon, 
I am officially CANCER FREE! After 8 weeks of being on Death Row with ciglet-cell esophageal cancer, I'm not. 

Now just need a cryoablation of the Barrets' esophagus, and I'm just another so-and-so, like youse guys. :thumbsup:


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Radium said:


> Oh, by the way, for everybody here who knows of my situation, as of yesterday afternoon,
> I am officially CANCER FREE! After 8 weeks of being on Death Row with ciglet-cell esophageal cancer, I'm not.
> 
> Now just need a cryoablation of the Barrets' esophagus, and I'm just another so-and-so, like youse guys. :thumbsup:


Awesome, Ray!


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Radium said:


> Oh, by the way, for everybody here who knows of my situation, as of yesterday afternoon,
> I am officially CANCER FREE! After 8 weeks of being on Death Row with ciglet-cell esophageal cancer, I'm not.
> 
> Now just need a cryoablation of the Barrets' esophagus, and I'm just another so-and-so, like youse guys.


Sweet!
Congrats.

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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Ladmo said:


> I've always believed in the everything in moderation thought process. The evidence for cutting down on certain foods and increasing others seems solid, but I don't believe in taking that to extremes. I'm still going to BBQ up a big 'ol T-bone every once in a while [as in once every couple months].
> 
> I've always felt the same about exercise. Occasional really hard/long rides don't hurt anything, but routine moderately strenuous rides are the sweet spot when it comes to realizing true lifetime health benefits.
> 
> Anyway, that's my belief and I'm sticking to it.


That's the way I see it as well. 
For one thing, I believe it's easier and safer since making any changes is easy to track and see results (moderation) without throwing a big curve into the variables.
I've slowly got my brain around the idea of making exchanges where I cut back on something and replace it with a more healthy version. Its not the same as going Cold Turkey but that's why it's more doable IMO. Cutting back on the big breakfasts and going to a healthy cereal a few days a week, smaller meals or eat less at a time but more often as in snacking in-between. This helps keep many from feeling over hungry and then over eating. Eating slower helps too. I let my brain catch up to my stomach and I often feel better after a meal.

I read some tips in a book called Drop Dead Healthy that was a fun guide authored by a guy who spent a few years testing exercises and diets to see how it worked. He wrote much of the book at his standing / walking desk, a treadmill under it build for his endeavor.

I think of 'weekend warrior' as the potential opposite of moderation. Too much yard work at once or pushing myself to get something done when I could wait for another set of hands to help with lifting or moving things. 
I'm at times, impatient and have caused myself those occasional Dr visits brought on by weekend warrior efforts. 
I'm getting better at navigating these common sense things and if nothing else, aging and respecting longevity or mobility rather than taking it for granted is helping me stay on the safer path.



JimmyAsheville said:


> The only thing certain in this thread is that people believe what they want to believe, in order to convince themselves their way is the right way. The one word that strikes me in here is "compulsion". The theory that more is better has limits.


I have no doubt that much of 'Good Health tips' is made in the context of _general guidelines and good practices_ and yet when it comes to health and diet, different things work for different people a lot of times. We do have to interpret what we think best fits our situation, genetics, lifestyle, time commitments etc... and some of us that have been here a while like into our 40's or 50's or ? have had plenty of time for trial and error, making mistakes and trying to adopt the right way more as the individual. Not just that, time to see what worked and what didn't. 
Hopefully by now, most of us can profess to be a bit of an expert on ourselves in that respect and not necessarily preach to others as experts on them.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm pretty sure no one here is trying to rush anything, if anything there is an abundance of angst over delaying the end.
> 
> The funny part about all this angst ridden posting (the entire forum??) is that mental health plays as much a part on longevity as anything, but we do little to reduce stress.
> 
> ...


I error on the side of cognitive deficit for memory and organizing type things. Two high impact crashes / head injuries from 24 and 39 years ago give me the idea that more reading and writing puts my brain activity into motion in ways that could be helpful, thus my exercise program is all in my head !


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Sidewalk said:


> There is, so why do you feel yours is the more valid choice?
> 
> Maybe I don't want to live longer, why must I be 100 years old spending the last 20 on an eBike when I can have a **** load of fun now, die at 60, and have lived it to the max?
> 
> Why fade out?


You should buy a e mountain bike now and double your fun

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


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## Ladmo (Jan 11, 2013)

I like being out in the woods. I like the sound of my tires on the dirt, the wind in the trees, and the birds. I like seeing my riding friends and acquaintances. I like riding new to me trail, and seeing new vistas. I like the way the suspension moves under my weight.

That's why I ride. Red lining every ride, or going slow, or riding a moderate pace has nothing to do with it.

I ride as fast as I ride each time based on the flow and vibe I am feeling. I do not ever think to myself - oh man, I'm not going as fast this time as last time, I need to speed up!!!

I don't care how anyone else rides their bike or how they get enjoyment or fulfillment or whatever it is they get from riding.

It is weird to me to see and hear people tell other riders, essentially, how they should enjoy this activity. 

To each his or her own. 

There are certain riders in my local community that I do not ride with for the very reason that they think they know how the sport should be enjoyed and they can't stop themselves from expressing it. 

Weird obsessive controlling behavior - I stay away from that.

To me, exercise is a really great side benefit to riding. But that isn't why I ride.


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

Going fast is really fun.

Stopping to smell the roses is really fun.

Redlining like crazy is really fun.

Riding easy and socializing is really fun.

There is no wrong way to mountain bike. Ride your own ride.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Ladmo said:


> I like being out in the woods. I like the sound of my tires on the dirt, the wind in the trees, and the birds. I like seeing my riding friends and acquaintances. I like riding new to me trail, and seeing new vistas. I like the way the suspension moves under my weight.
> 
> That's why I ride. Red lining every ride, or going slow, or riding a moderate pace has nothing to do with it.
> 
> ...


this is my same mindset to a T!!!! (minus the suspension...)

to me, riding is more about Zen, and less about comparison


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Radium said:


> Yeah, but Nurse (practitioner. I know know plenty of you people professionally. I've been a Licensed Acupuncturist for well over 30 years.) I found that some of youse are good at projecting a sensation of serenity but still suffer from stress, be it financial, relationship, etc.
> 
> So what kind of therapy people do you personally find get you the most lasting, long-term gains/relief?
> 
> ...


Well yeah, the job is to show the client we are stable, it's the image 

The fundamental problems I see in the human condition are entirely due to how we think about ourselves and our place in the world. Simply put, people worry about things they can't control to the point that they make themselves sick.

The first thing I encourage is to stop thinking about things you can't directly impact such as how others behave (family, friends, strangers, society, etc...).

The second thing I encourage is reducing screen time, both TV, social media, computer, phone. The concerns is not about whether you use these things, but how much you use them, how you use them, and how they impact your thinking/feeling. For example, as concerns in politics have increased, more people are watching/reading/posting about these issues which are generally speaking, a negative interaction. These negative interactions lead to negative thoughts, which lead to negative feelings, etc...

EDIT: I will also add that all interactions, whether they are human to human, human to society, human to media, should be viewed by the individual in the context of how the individual responds to this influence, ie do you feel good or bad as a result of this interaction. We're not talking about putting our head in the sand, instead it's about choosing what and how to interact with the world.

The third thing(s) I encourage is more on the order of healthy living, so regular exercise, proper dietary intake, sleep hygiene, and health interactions with people in person.

After working as a psychiatric provider for a while, I find that the medications have taken a back seat to working with people on changing behaviors, changing thinking processes, and leading people "back to their roots". Humans have a lot of potential, but we don't tend to use our potential in ways that are healthy.

The big idea: You can choose how to think, how to feel, and how to respond. Everything you say or do is within your ability to control.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

rod9301 said:


> You should buy a e mountain bike now and double your fun
> 
> Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


Battery life sucks :lol:



Suns_PSD said:


> It's amusing to me that you think at 60 it's all over anyways. I mean 80, maybe you have a good point, but I know 60+ year old competitive motocrossers for gosh sakes.


A. I picked the number at random.
B. People here are suggesting that if I maintain my behavior, I'm going to die prematurely.
C. Most of the males in my family don't make it past 80 anyway period.


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## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

Ptor said:


> Slick talking MDs typically make me suspicious and this guy turned out to be no different. Yup, watched it, yup, no science there, or at least none that he'd done or reported.


There are several studies showing ultra endurance athletes have shorter lifespans. There are other scientists and doctors who have come to the same conclusion with a theory to the average person have a limited number of heartbeats available. Once you exceed that number, your time is basically up.... That number of heart beats is about a billion, so if you run everyday and are constantly pushing harder to be faster, then you reach your billion beats more quickly than a person that walks 3 miles each night for exercise.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Analyzing the result is tricky.
Maybe the big achievers die sooner due to **over exercise or call it extreme exercise**.
Maybe they have more than average stress hormones and that shortens their life.
Just like a vegeterian might be healthier because she/he avoids bad meats?
Maybe it is due to benefits from plant based foods?
40 years ago they called them type A and it was well knowned that they had more than their share of heart attacks compared to more relaxed humans.
Obviously some are pure type A or B and others are more average/mixed.
In my family my sister and i are B like my dad, my brother is A like my mom.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

A/C in Az said:


> There are several studies showing ultra endurance athletes have shorter lifespans. There are other scientists and doctors who have come to the same conclusion with a theory to the average person have a limited number of heartbeats available. Once you exceed that number, your time is basically up.... That number of heart beats is about a billion, so if you run everyday and are constantly pushing harder to be faster, then you reach your billion beats more quickly than a person that walks 3 miles each night for exercise.


I'm not convinced about the billion heartbeat deal but assuming that's true an endurance athlete might come out ahead. Most have resting heart rates of 40bpm or lower.

10 hours a week @elevated heart rates but 100 hours or so @ 40bpm. I don't know, some math would be required.

Anyway it doesn't seem like something to worry about for the vast majority of people.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm not convinced about the billion heartbeat deal but assuming that's true an endurance athlete might come out ahead. Most have resting heart rates of 40bpm or lower.
> 
> 10 hours a week @elevated heart rates but 100 hours or so @ 40bpm. I don't know, some math would be required.
> 
> Anyway it doesn't seem like something to worry about for the vast majority of people.


In health class in ES we had a lesson where we did that math (in the same breath they said the heartbeat limit was BS) and you came out way ahead being an exerciser. 
Who knows though, that was the early '80s!

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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm not convinced about the billion heartbeat deal...


Or it sounds like bullshit would be another way of putting it. Does it make any logical sense? Is there _any_ evidence for it, at all? For that you be true you would need to have some form of timer built into your body that counted your heartbeats and shut your heart down when it reached the preset number, irrespective of the condition of your heart at that time. I'd say that's closer to superstition than science.


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## johnnyrmxd (Nov 23, 2014)

General rule: It is hard to say whether your heart is "programmed" for certain number of heartbeats, but life in an urban stress environment and all sorts of toxins (food, air, alcohol, etc.) are surely making your life shorter. Also, if you exercise too much, you are actually creating a bigger intake of toxins (if air is polluted and the more you exercise, more toxins you take in cause you breath faster and deeper). On the other hand - people who live in modern toxic environment and do not exercise at all are also more likely to be poor, eat worse food, drink more alcohol etc... All those things are making life shorter.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Live well, stay healthy, die anyway.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I don't know that it always holds true but, if you look at animals, there are lots of examples of animals that have very fast heartbeats having short lifespans and animals with very slow heartbeats having long lifespans. But I doubt that humans have a preprogrammed limit.

Yes, extreme exercise can go beyond healthy. What probably all of us are doing: healthy.

Just looked it up: hummingbirds have an in flight heartbeat of 1200 bpm; 250 resting. They live 3-5 years.
Mourning dove 570/135. They live up to 5 years, though the oldest known lived to be more than 31 years old.

Hmm, anyone's kid need a subject for a research paper?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

That video makes sense to me. Seems logical enough. I sent it to a friend of mine who was about to compete in a big race.

He used to do distance riding, time trials etc but a few years ago tried the velodrome and found he was a good sprinter. In fact they told him that if he'd started young you probably would've been at the olympics. Not bad for someone who is fifty-seven. 

The big race was the UCI Masters and he won Bronze in his age group! Not bad for a guy who only started sprinting a few years ago and has never raced professionally. 

He was unphased by the video. He reckons he knows what he's doing but I guess anyone who is a fitness freak thinks that.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Tortoises heart rates are about 25 bpm. Does a hummingbird know, or care that they won't live as long as a tortoise?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> Does a hummingbird know, or care that they won't live as long as a tortoise?


It's an interesting thought. Look at dogs. They get old and grey, get arthritis and other ailments and die within about fifteen years or so. Why? Who do they get old much faster than humans do?


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

I realised I don't do an activity called exercise very often. 

If I've been off the bike for a while I might go out and give myself a bit of a flogging on the bike to get my legs spinning freely, but I don't think in terms of measuring output or doing intervals for the purpose of improvement.

I just like to get out and ride, and depending on my mood it can be a few miles or lots. I'm not interested in getting into the pain zone.

Rather than "exercise" just go out and have fun on a single speed...


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

A/C in Az said:


> More studies are proving how people who run or bike ride more than an hour a day actually have a higher risk of heart attacks compared to people who do not exercise at all.


Post one peer reviewed medical study that concludes this ^^^. I would be interested in seeing that.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

vikb said:


> Post one peer reviewed medical study that concludes this ^^^. I would be interested in seeing that.


Yes, I too would be interested in seeing any study that suggests that the average sedentary fat f*** lives longer than a guy who rides his 7 hours a week.

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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

About 50 years ago the governement of Quebec or Canada did a study. They found out the *average local* 40 years old was at the shape/fitness level of a 65 Norwegian or Swede.
After that for about 10 years they launched a program to get people moving it was called particip-action.
We all know sitting at work + in car + in front of TV/internet = not good. That is not news.
Any *specialist* might promote something, some are fads, some are sensible.
55 years ago *pre-Nintendo* most kids were playing outside, in a class of 30 1 was fat.
Now many stay indoors with air condition that we did not have, with games that we did not have. Add junk food = 50% with weight problems.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

60 miles, 7500' of climbing on a 36+ pound Enduro bike yesterday. I might die younger than some, but at least I lived my life more.

Waiting in the lift line right now...

I'll hit 300 miles and 24 hours for the week by noon.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(16)00068-9/fulltext

Hopefully the above is to the Mayo Clinic proceedings, where this topic came up.

If I have read this correctly, the MC article claims inadequate control group in previous research claiming higher mortality. The MC authors have not been able to confirm the prior claims, and appear themselves to find mortality benefits.

Medical research and treatment is a fascinating topic, it wasn't until post WW2 that control groups and properly constructed experiments were even advocated for, and even then it was an uphill battle.

I'd also point out that there is an intuitive appeal to what is essentially the argument that there are likely diminishing marginal returns from a defined level of exercise. Whether it can be confirmed or what it may be requires a lot more thoughtful research.

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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Also add that peer review research always preferred, but it's easy/tempting to hang hat on such and assume something is conclusive or use it to diminish conflicting claims. 

A large chunk of peer reviewed research cannot be replicated even when data is provided. When a researcher doesn't provide their data, the finding should be trashed, but peer review is not equivalent to automatic proof of a position either. 

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

cjsb said:


> A large chunk of peer reviewed research cannot be replicated even when data is provided. When a researcher doesn't provide their data, the finding should be trashed, but peer review is not equivalent to automatic proof of a position either.


Maybe, but it beats random dudes ranting online.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Balance.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Too often research is money grabbing.
They beg you to give money for skin cancer
They beg you to give money for liver cancer
They beg you to give money for pulmonairy cancer
They beg you to give money for breast cancer
They beg you to give money for prostate cancer
For 1/10 they could prevent cancers and others
but they would loose billions
so please keep wasting $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in reseach
and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for pills
is the prayer of many who sleep in nice castles.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Maybe, but it beats random dudes ranting online.


Agreed.

I don't find the extreme claim on lower life span to be that interesting, because it's too extreme, it's unlikely to be true.

But medical research itself has pretty shabby history, and the claims of those in the OP are actually an enlightened approach compared to most medical research from the 60s and earlier.

I am thinking more like Rocky IV in terms of interest in this topic. Whatever one defines as beneficial or detrimental, when do the benefits start to decline and the activity becomes detrimental, however those are defined. The more extreme one defines these terms, the less likely there is anything meaningful to confirm.

But Rocky IV with the Soviet sports machine v. Rocky trying to move a mountain, what is going too far under either approach?

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## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm not convinced about the billion heartbeat deal but assuming that's true an endurance athlete might come out ahead. Most have resting heart rates of 40bpm or lower.


https://www.sciencealert.com/relationship-between-heart-beat-and-life-expectancy


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## TXhookey (Aug 12, 2019)

Anything done in excess is likely to cause issues. From an exercise perspective, the question is "where is the line". The problem is genetics and predisposition are a huge factor. My family has a history of heart disease on both sides. All males for three generations have died of heart attacks. All males are very "high strung" and led very active life styles. The active life style was not the problem, it likely bought them a few more years. You can do a study to prove anything. I wrote a paper in college that naming your child Robert would help them succeed. It can sound formal "Robert", it can sound personal/friendly "Bob", it's fun to say, it's a palindrome, it's easy to spell, we all know a "Bob" so it is familiar, etc. I pulled a bunch of data on CEOs and other very highly compensated individuals named Robert/Bob and proposed it was dis-proportionally greater than the average name and therefor was a meaningful part of their success. It was complete rubbish and I got an A. Height and Weight were the most common attribute. By far, the majority were over 6 feet and at or below the recommended weight for their height. The next most common was full head of hair.

We all have seen the pendulum that wine is good then bad then good. Coffee is good then bad then good. The super food/juice of the day. On and on, picking one factor as the determining data point out of thousands of other data points that vary from person to person, is a very difficult thing to accomplish and usually is a case of correlation more than causation.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Looks like there's no problem with lots of exercise.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/study-shows-that-extraordinary-level-of-exercise-does-not-damage-the-heart/2019/11/19/b0b3f0cc-0722-11ea-ac12-3325d49eacaa_story.html?fbclid=IwAR0AHiCz85nnOcuL8C8FVyHlyt01lorW8BIR7_tXosdQTbDUyzxl2t05g5k&wpisrc=nl_lean&wpmm=1

Damn! That's one excuse gone...


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

TXhookey said:


> I wrote a paper in college that naming your child Robert would help them succeed. It can sound formal "Robert", it can sound personal/friendly "Bob", it's fun to say, it's a palindrome, it's easy to spell, we all know a "Bob" so it is familiar, etc. I pulled a bunch of data on CEOs and other very highly compensated individuals named Robert/Bob and proposed it was dis-proportionally greater than the average name and therefor was a meaningful part of their success. It was complete rubbish and I got an A.


Brilliant paper, absolutely deserved an A!!


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Velobike said:


> Looks like there's no problem with lots of exercise.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/study-shows-that-extraordinary-level-of-exercise-does-not-damage-the-heart/2019/11/19/b0b3f0cc-0722-11ea-ac12-3325d49eacaa_story.html?fbclid=IwAR0AHiCz85nnOcuL8C8FVyHlyt01lorW8BIR7_tXosdQTbDUyzxl2t05g5k&wpisrc=nl_lean&wpmm=1
> 
> Damn! That's one excuse gone...


Thread closed! I'll continue to ride myself into the ground a few times a week knowing that I'm better for it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Well I guess you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-7736673/High-intensity-exercise-key-ward-dementia.html


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## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

Velobike said:


> Looks like there's no problem with lots of exercise.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/study-shows-that-extraordinary-level-of-exercise-does-not-damage-the-heart/2019/11/19/b0b3f0cc-0722-11ea-ac12-3325d49eacaa_story.html?fbclid=IwAR0AHiCz85nnOcuL8C8FVyHlyt01lorW8BIR7_tXosdQTbDUyzxl2t05g5k&wpisrc=nl_lean&wpmm=1
> 
> Damn! That's one excuse gone...


Yea, and that report (even the article really) looks to me more scientific than the previous attempts at knee jerk science I investigated. There is just so much room between couch potato and extreme exerciser. It turns out one side still lives longer.

One thing that I think is wrong with all mortality rate studies ... we all die. Some sooner, some later. Modern science thinks every death has a "cause". But doesn't it have to be something? So when we look at otherwise healthy individuals that eventually die, when is the cause of death irrelevant?


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Note there were definitely deleterious effects detected, just that these did not contribute to excess mortality, perhaps due to a compensatory effect exercise. AFIB was not included in the study.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

The result of the research on me says reading makes my life feel much longer than pedaling


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## PdlPwr (Nov 16, 2010)

All the guys I ride with look 10-15 years younger with a spritely demeanor, for whatever it's worth I'll go with lot's of exercise.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

If any of you die from straining yourselves, please let us know.


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## Gene Hamilton (Oct 8, 2013)

Perhaps this article by Gene Hamilton of BetterRide can offer inspiration for riding stronger as we get older.
https://betterride.net/blog/2019/mo...r-at-53-than-i-was-at-43-wanted-to-share-how/


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