# Best GPS for Trailforks



## Racecar (Oct 10, 2019)

I want a GPS in case I get lost when riding on new forest trails. What is the best GPS unit that will work with Trailforks. I am thinking of a Garmin 520 or Element Bolt. When I read reviews or posts about these units, there is a ton of info about HRM, downloading etc, but not much detail on how well the GPS really works. If I make a wrong turn in the forest, will it guide me back to the trail. Anyone have experience with Trailforks on either of these units?


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

The GPS accuracy of all these units is generally pretty good. Good enough to show you were you are on the map and which trail you're on. I don't know if I have a good answer for you but I'll describe what I do. I use a GPS with Open Source Maps (OSM). These show virtually every trail there is, most of which are not in Trailforks...though TF is getting better. I'll create a course or download a course and display it on the GPS. I can the follow it, and if I wind up off it, I can see on the map how to get back. This is not using the device to "navigate" the course by which I mean having it alert me when and where to turn as I'm riding.

I do use the GPS to navigate road courses and sometimes mtb courses where the trail networks isn't very dense and the course simple. For dense mtb trails, there are usually way too many alerts and often ones that aren't needed or are distracting, like "Turn right" when it's just the trail bending to the right. This is due to how the trail is coded in the map and how GPS interprets that variable trail data. 

I've used a number of GPS devices. I have a 520, among others, and would not recommend it, if for no other reason than it does not allow panning the map, which can be a problem if you're trying to figure out where you are and how to get to where you want to be, especially on the small low resolution screen. Also, zooming in and out takes many button presses through a number of menus. It though it will display courses on the map, it doesn't natively do navigation. That said, downloaded courses can include embedded nav instructions that the 520 will parrot. But these are not adaptive, so if you follow a part of the course in the option direction, the turn instructions will be backward.

If you haven't yet, I suggest checking out the DC Rainmaker website which has a wealth of objective information and testing on all these devices.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

The reason you don't see much about GPS accuracy reviews is that such a thing is exceedingly hard to quantify. Phones generally have poorer accuracy than standalone GPS receivers, but some phones do quite well, and the parts of these devices that actually MATTER for accuracy (gps processor chip, antenna type/size/specs) generally aren't included on spec sheets.

All that matters at this point is that standalone receivers are pretty accurate. I haven't had major problems with positional accuracy on a GPS since about 2002 or so. So yeah, it's been a long time.

The software is where these things really distinguish themselves from each other, though. And like Lone Rager points out, I'm not sure that you're really going to get exactly what you're looking for. Backcountry GPS devices are NOT idiot-proof the way car nav devices/apps attempt to be. They can be helpful reference tools, but the more you RELY on the software to do the navigation for you, IME, the more you're setting yourself up to be screwed.

I set up a course with turn prompts the way Lone Rager described you can embed them (RideWithGPS has a great tool for this). I've used the function for long road routes before and it worked pretty well once I figured out a few quirks (namely, ensuring that I set the turn alert to occur well before the actual turn so it doesn't surprise me and cause me to make a sudden maneuver and potentially cause a crash). On mtb trails, this is a hot mess. Mostly a bunch of alerts that I was "off trail" when I was in fact right in the middle of it. Simply because trails are not mapped nearly as accurately as roads are, so there's always a small discrepancy between where the map says the trail is and where the GPS says you are.

Nope. Nowadays, I only display a map (I usually use topo maps from GPSFileDepot.com and the "MyTrails" map layered together) on the screen of my GPS. The GPS shows my actual position, and I use my own nav skills to get where I want to go. Where possible, I combine with a quality paper map so I can see a big picture of the area I'm riding, and make plans before I get on the trail. If I don't have that, I'll use my phone because its screen is bigger than my GPS. My phone has both Trailforks and MTBProject on it, and I preload the riding areas before I go. That way, I'm not relying on a single source for digital information, because coverage is notoriously variable and spotty in places for both services.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Yeah. On occasion, if I need to look at the bigger navigational picture, rather than try on the tiny GPS screen, I'll whip out my phone. I use the OSM And app which allows downloading maps to the phone so no cell reception is required to use it while out of cell range in the boonies. The phone GPS works well. 

But in general, I research and layout routes in the comfort of my home on my computer using resources like Trailforks, MTB Project, OSM, Strava heat maps, Google satellite and street view, city/count/stat/fed maps, etc...


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

I’ve been using a Garmin’s 530 for about a month. After you get over garmin’s UI issues, it’s pretty useful. The trail forks and Strava integration is great. Out of the box, it’s set up to show your map when you stop on the trail, which is great for figuring out turns at forks. While navigating and riding, it alerts you to upcoming turns and places an arrow right on the map that conforms to the shape of the trail, which I find very easy to understand while in motion. The climb pro feature is pretty nice while navigating. It automatically switches to an elevation view and indicates your progress and remaining distance. This is a great motivator when you are on a new climb and feeling gassed. The Strava live segments are fun to use as well, giving you clear real time feedback when trying to improve a time or racing your buddies. I popped for the mtb bundle which includes a bar mounted remote for switching screens and such... much easier than using the units button while in motion. It’s the first bike gps I’ve used where I feel like I know where I’m going without having to stop and fiddle with the unit. It took about a dozen rides and watching a few YouTube videos on how to configure custom fields and features to get that comfortable with it.


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## Racecar (Oct 10, 2019)

Thanks for the input. Just to clarify, I am not looking for a nav system to guide me down the trail, it sounds like those don't really work that good. I do need a GPS in case I get lost. I will be on mtb trails in areas that do not have cell coverage. Not interested in recording times or workout data. I just want a GPS to find my way if I get lost in the forest. I do plan on some long rides this summer. Maybe I just need a handheld GPS unit to keep in my pack, and only use it if I am lost. Or With OSM on my phone, will I be able to use my Galaxy Note 9 as a GPS without cell service. ??


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

Racecar said:


> Thanks for the input. Just to clarify, I am not looking for a nav system to guide me down the trail, it sounds like those don't really work that good. I do need a GPS in case I get lost. I will be on mtb trails in areas that do not have cell coverage. Not interested in recording times or workout data. I just want a GPS to find my way if I get lost in the forest. I do plan on some long rides this summer. Maybe I just need a handheld GPS unit to keep in my pack, and only use it if I am lost. Or With OSM on my phone, will I be able to use my Galaxy Note 9 as a GPS without cell service. ??


There aren't a whole lot of options with Trailforks built in, I mentioned one which has extensive trail data built into its basemap and in the Trailforks widget that runs on it.
If all you want is a GPS device without cycling features you could use an iPhone with motionX gps or any handheld hiking gps made in the past few years. Either is capable of importing gpx tracks if you want a route to follow or a trail network to refer to. How you get trail basemap into either is a bit more work though.


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## MuklukMike (Oct 19, 2014)

Check out the garmin etrex line. You can get a handle bar mount, download maps and gpx files to it, runs off of double A batteries. Cost between $150-$200 depending on model / sales. 

Mike


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Racecar said:


> Thanks for the input. Just to clarify, I am not looking for a nav system to guide me down the trail, it sounds like those don't really work that good. I do need a GPS in case I get lost. I will be on mtb trails in areas that do not have cell coverage. Not interested in recording times or workout data. I just want a GPS to find my way if I get lost in the forest. I do plan on some long rides this summer. Maybe I just need a handheld GPS unit to keep in my pack, and only use it if I am lost. Or With OSM on my phone, will I be able to use my Galaxy Note 9 as a GPS without cell service. ??


I mean, what do you actually want the device to DO? Usually when people come on here and tell them they want the device in case they get lost, they actually do want it to give them exact prompts to get back. That's why the first two posts explained things how they did.

It's very true that Trailforks isn't embedded on many models. Maybe you need to give up on that ask? There are other very good sources of map data. And, I'm not sure if you're aware or not, even if the device doesn't have Trailforks embedded in it, or the capability to add an app, Trailforks allows downloads of its maps in a Garmin basemap format for use on any Garmin device (including handhelds).

Also - some words about riding with a GPS.

One of the MAJOR benefits of doing so is that the device can run the whole time you're riding (and yes, recording time, speed, distance, etc the whole time). The reason this is a benefit is because it not only will show you on the screen where you are currently, but where you have been. Even if your device is super basic and doesn't have any maps saved on it, it will show you this graphic representation of your current position relative to where you've been. At minimum, you can use that to backtrack to your starting point.

When I got a GPS at first, I mostly didn't run it while I rode or hiked. I left it off and only spot checked my position. I had to do a couple things to make that useful. First, I had to save a waypoint where I parked my car. Then, I'd HAVE to have maps. Those maps didn't have to be on the device, but I did at least need to grab the coordinates of my position on the device and plot them on a paper map. If I didn't do those things, spot checks were pretty useless.

Now, if you run the device while you ride, tracking what you do, your starting position is shown by default. The device also creates a map of the trail you're riding as you ride it (usually more accurate and detailed than what's on any maps you might download). If you have a course showing on the map, then you'll ALSO see where you plan to go. If you have topo maps loaded, you'll see the terrain, and any major climbs, descents, roads, streams, etc that you might pass. Finally, if your maps have trails, you'll even see other options that you might pass along the way.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

I'll try to expand on and answer these 2 questions

" What is the best GPS unit that will work with Trailforks. "

Trailforks has an app that can be loaded onto a phone, as well as an app that can be added to a Garmin Edge device (I think recent Garmins come with TF installed). Thing to know about TF is it's a collection of routes that others have uploaded to TF of a track they rode and recorded. While it's currently about the best database of trail systems, it can have gaps of trails not yet ridden. It also doesn't have much in the way of dirt and gravel roads. You can generate a navigable route on the TF website, load that route to your Garmin, try to follow with Turn-By-Turn directions, and discover some side trails are not showing up as a turn. So it's not perfect. I know that Garmin with it's iQ system off add-on widgets and apps has one for TF, don't think other cycling GPS units can do this.

"If I make a wrong turn in the forest, will it guide me back to the trail. Anyone have experience with Trailforks on either of these units?"

As Harold and Lone Ranger have well stated, a GPS will show you where you are on an on-screen map. If you are recording a ride, and on a Garmin, there will be a blue line trace of the route you've taken up to the point you stop and think you are lost. You can tell a Garmin to navigate a return to the start by retracing the current course you've ridden, I've done this on the road and it works well, never tried it off road but I suspect it would work well in the woods as well.

I have only tried TF once on a trail ride and discovered my particular park has so many trails not in the TF database that it made TBT useless. My local mt. bike club however, highly recommends it and is moving all it's trail database over to this system. I understand that folks download TF rides recorded by other local members and follow that route on their devices as some of the trail systems are complete with all the turns shown.

As to a recommendation ?. I prefer Garmin over Wahoo (the 2 biggies) as Garmin has the iQ system as well as allows other maps to be installed on the device, such as the Topo version of OpenStreetMaps. I happen to use the Garmin brand topo maps and they are very good. You can as well set the maps that come installed to show elevation and you now have the topo version of that map. Not sure it'll have all the trails though. Wahoo is very road centric (IMO) and doesn't do off-road well (again, IMO). I also prefer a large screen to view maps so use the top-of-the-line 1030. The 830 and 530 also show maps well, the screens are just smaller. FWIW, Garmin id having a sale tight now on some devices. The 1030 is at $399 down from $599 so a steal. The 520 Plus is reduced to $199 from $300 or some such. My recommendation is bite the bullet and get a 1030.

https://www.clevertraining.com/cycle/all-cycle/training-tools/cycling-gps/garmin


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Racecar said:


> ... With OSM on my phone, will I be able to use my Galaxy Note 9 as a GPS without cell service. ??


Yes. You can even use an old phone without any service and download OSM AND via wifi. The phone's GPS will still work fine. As long as you have the maps downloaded to your phone, there's no need for cell service.

IDK if trailforks will allow downloading maps to the phone, but it might.

The Note 9 is kinda big, but if you're carrying it with you anyway, you can certainly use it. You can try it right now and see how it works, then decide if you want a dedicated cycling GPS unit.


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## Racecar (Oct 10, 2019)

Thanks for the great input. What I actually want to do seems to be changing. I carry my cell in my pack and it works great with Trailforks, as long as I have cell service. I need range beyond cell service. A bike unit does offer a lot more features than my cell, so a Garmin is looking better. Catman makes some good points about Garmin tracking. Wahoo may be more user friendly, but I agree the mapping visuals are not as good. You never know all of the good and bad of the GPS units until you buy one, that's what I am trying to learn about here. I do appreciate input from everyone. Probably 99% of the time I will be on familiar trails. It's just that 1% when I get lost in the forest, I want to have a good map to find my way out. I appreciate your input, It is helping me to find the right tools so I can find my way back.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

Lone Rager said:


> Yes. You can even use an old phone without any service and download OSM AND via wifi. The phone's GPS will still work fine. As long as you have the maps downloaded to your phone, there's no need for cell service.
> 
> IDK if trailforks will allow downloading maps to the phone, but it might.
> 
> The Note 9 is kinda big, but if you're carrying it with you anyway, you can certainly use it. You can try it right now and see how it works, then decide if you want a dedicated cycling GPS unit.


I think when you use the app and download a course, it gives you the map


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Catmandoo said:


> I think when you use the app and download a course, it gives you the map


I have not downloaded a course from Trailforks, but there are a number of options with that website there depending on your gear.

1. On the app on my phone: saves trails by state, just like mtbproject. but ONLY the trails. does not load map tiles outside of cell phone range, but there does appear to be some degree of "caching" possible if you view the map tiles when you have signal, at least some of them will be available once signal is gone. I haven't really pushed this capability very far. what's worth noting here is that TF seems to have this annoying tendency to wipe downloaded states when the app updates. MTBProject doesn't appear to do this, at least as often.

2. If you are downloading Garmin-compatible maps from the TF website (I believe you still have to donate to your local trail org through the TF website to do this), you have the option to download trails only, or trails plus topo. I don't think you have a ton of control of the area you load with this option the way you do if you get maps from OSM, GPSFileDepot, or even use the maps Garmin sells for its devices, which allow you to select the area you want through the Basecamp program. This gives you the ability to select smaller areas if memory is a concern (the way it is on my plain 520).

3. Baked-in TF on the newest Edges. I have no experience with this, but my understanding is it's not too dissimilar from #2, except you don't have to go through the steps of downloading the maps and putting them onto your device. They're already there. I have no idea about updates to those maps, how frequently it's done (or even IF it's done). But, it's showing the trail map of TF's full database for the area, which may include side trails (if they exist and if they're on the TF database...and also if they're legal trails or illegal ones that have yet to be reported as such).

4. TF ConnectIQ app. This, as mentioned, is based on ROUTES, not on generalized maps of the area where you're riding. I also have no experience with this option, because I don't find routes all that useful for mtb riding. I have a tendency to explore and adjust my planned routes mid-ride. I don't like my computer to complain at me when I do that. Just record my ride, show me where I am, and show me what's around me (based on the maps I've loaded).


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

So I played a bit today with TrailForks on my Garmin 1030.

I could not find anything “embedded” from TF on the device. I have the basic map set that came with the device. That map set can be set to show elevation, so it essentially turns the stock map into a Topo map. I can’t state if it’s showing all the trails you might find on a USGS Topo but does show some of the hiking trails in my local park. 

I had the TF iQ app installed so launched that. It prompted me to find routes for the region I was in and after a minute showed me many routes for the area, including a park about 10 miles east. I then selected and downloaded a route for the park I was located, it proceeded (took maybe a minute using my cell phone connection) and was then available as a navigable course in the standard Garmin Navigation section. I went back and forth from the TF recommended route and the basic map on the device and as far as I can tell, the TF course lays on top of the device map. So if you have maps resident on the device and there’s a TF route you can use, it’ll lay in onto the map.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

All I know is the trail forks integration on the 530 is nearly identical to the website and app in terms of the baked in depictions. The routes are color coded based on the rating (green, blue, black). Double black diamonds on the 530 are colored black, where as the app shows them in red. The Trail Forks basemap has nicer looking vectors describing the trail, more verticies=smoother looking trails. Sometimes, the lower resolution Garmin Cycling Map does not line up with Trail Forks. To make things easier to read, I turn off the Garmin cycling map and/or topolines unless I really need them. The Garmin Cycling Map has extensive coverage of roads, bike paths, forest roads, and MTB trails in my region. The Trail Forks map has detailed coverage of specific trail systems, including features, trail names, and ratings. Both are fully routable, which is pretty nice.


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## Racecar (Oct 10, 2019)

"The Garmin Cycling Map has extensive coverage of roads, bike paths, forest roads, and MTB trails in my region. The Trail Forks map has detailed coverage of specific trail systems, including features, trail names, and ratings. Both are fully routable, which is pretty nice. "

That sounds like exactly what I need, a good map system. Trailforks on my PC works great and that is what I was trying to find on a bike unit. You covered several options there, all look good. I'm shopping for a Garmin 520+ or 530. Thanks


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

Racecar said:


> "The Garmin Cycling Map has extensive coverage of roads, bike paths, forest roads, and MTB trails in my region. The Trail Forks map has detailed coverage of specific trail systems, including features, trail names, and ratings. Both are fully routable, which is pretty nice. "
> 
> That sounds like exactly what I need, a good map system. Trailforks on my PC works great and that is what I was trying to find on a bike unit. You covered several options there, all look good. I'm shopping for a Garmin 520+ or 530. Thanks


FWIW, a friend told me the new 530 is faster than the 520/520+. I don't know if that is true, but I know waiting for maps to refresh stinks on older GPS units when traveling by bike or motorcycle.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Absolutely every new gen of these devices gets faster. They kinda have to for all the extra features that get added (which puts more processing strain on the system). And even with a newer model, the more you want the GPS to do for you (esp with regards to routing), the longer it will take to do those things, and the more likely you'll start to see the effects of it with more battery drain.

I remember my old Edge 705 and waiting for map refreshes every time the map screen panned (when using more detailed 24k topos). It was such a taxing operation that leaving the device running on the map screen actually increased battery drain compared to leaving it on the trip meter screen. And that's just VIEWING the map screen, not running any kind of navigation or virtual partner stuff (the older Edges worked a little differently than the current ones and didn't have "Courses" in the same way they work now). I haven't noticed anything that extreme with my 520, but it has far fewer maps in its memory because its memory capacity is far lower. Stresses the processor less.

I would not assume the Garmin Cycle Map shows mtb trails as reliably as a service dedicated to keeping mtb trails up-to-date. Currently the crowdsourced trail data services like Trailforks and MTBProject do a better job of keeping up with changes (additions, reroutes, etc) to trail systems, which happen with more frequency than with roads. Places like where I live now would be represented well on Garmin's map...places where the trails have existed for decades and haven't had too many major changes to routing. But I'd say anything less than 10-20yrs old, your chances of coverage are much less. Especially if it's not a large land manager that makes digital map databases of trails publicly accessible (like the USFS and some state agencies).


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

So today I tried TF navigation.

I created a course online for a complicated set of trails at a local park. These trails had been GPS logged and are on the TF database, so easy enough to generate my own course. Saved it, then today went to the TF iQ app on my Garmin 1030 and downloaded the course. It shows up in Navigation on the device as a saved route. Started it, started the unit and off I went.

It was apparent in the first 1/2 mile that real Turn-By-Turn directions were not going to happen. When viewing the map, which was a Topo map with the parks trails, I could see the purple planned route as well as the blue trace of what had been ridden, so no question as to where I wanted to go, where I was and where I had been. 

When I’ve done TBT in a road route using RWGPS, I’m usually sitting in the main data screen. At 1/10 mile, the data screen changes to the TBT screen. That never happened today. I got no TBT cues at all. Might be the way TF formats the route and information, no clue. The TF database actually has the names of the trails, no info. like that was present today. 

It was no big deal as I could see where I was supposed to go on the map and where I was. Just curious as to how TF actually works.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

Catmandoo said:


> So today I tried TF navigation.
> 
> I created a course online for a complicated set of trails at a local park. These trails had been GPS logged and are on the TF database, so easy enough to generate my own course. Saved it, then today went to the TF iQ app on my Garmin 1030 and downloaded the course. It shows up in Navigation on the device as a saved route. Started it, started the unit and off I went.
> 
> ...


I wonder if the implementation on the Edge 1030 is different than the Edge 530. I built a 34 mile mtb route on TF which crossed numerous other trails. Went for a ride calling up the route via Connect IQ -> Trailforks -> My Routes. It gave turn by turn directions to the start of the route and then continued on giving them on the actual route. The map page shows ques, I have customized it to show speed and heart rate as well. I have Climb Pro active on my 530, so it is one of the available screens while climbing. It also has a list of upcoming climbs showing the distance away, grade, and length of the climb too. My other custom screens are available too while accessing navigation as described. My experience has been great on the Edge 530, behaves the same way when I'm navigating via a course I send the the device using Garmin Connect. Makes me think there is a handoff between TF and the Edge for the route, but it must be using the built in navigation rather than something TF specific.


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## CanuckMountainMan (Oct 29, 2018)

I've been researching GPS units that work with TrailForks for the past two days,
and finally jumped in and ordered the Garmin Edge 530 with Mountain Bike Bundle on Amazon.

I've been using the TF app on my smartphone around the local trails,
But it's a bit of a pain to pull out the phone to view while riding. Time for a Bar mounted GPS!

We occasionally venture into the Canadian Rockies (Jasper-Banff) where cell coverage can be a bit hit/miss. 

The last time I used a GPS was as a Jeep Trailguide over 15 years ago. 
We used the Data to map our trail system for the annual Jeep Jamboree program.

We could never rely on cell phone coverage out in the bush...even CB radios had limited range,
So most of us got our HAM Radio license and used 2 meter radios for coms with base camp.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

"I wonder if the implementation on the Edge 1030 is different than the Edge 530."

It's not and TBT works just fine. It's a short between the keyboard and chair, as we say at work.

I realized on the 2nd attempt, that the device IS showing TBT cues, pop-up screen and all. The issue is I don't hear the audible cues (I'me pretty deaf), so wasn't paying attention that the screen TBT was functioning, it was a new trail system I'd never ridden, thus just wasn't paying attention, I was watching a trial I'd never ridden. The TBT pop-up screen goes away when you are at the turn and all you then see is the screen map, which I did have. And it showed the big white arrow with the direction to turn. 

When I test drove it at my local trail system, whose route and turns I know blindfolded, it showed all the turns it knew about, 1/10th in advance only this time I was able to pay attention. 

Bottom line is mt. biking is not road biking. You need to constantly watch the trail not the GPS, you don't need to do that on a road bike, so the TBT in advance is maybe less useful. Knowing where you are and which way to turn IS useful and you get that.


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## bbbr (Nov 6, 2005)

i have all the turn by turn/forksight/climb pro notifications turned off on my 830. When i want to follow a specific route in the woods, I set the course to be "always display " (with color set to red) and reference the map when I hit an unknown junction. Otherwise the device is constantly squawking and changing map zoom levels every time I go for a ride. I like the trailforks integration paired with a high quality 24k topo map, makes it very easy to pick the correct trail at a large junction. My only complaint is that i would like it to be updated a little more frequently- there are several new trails (created within the last 2 years) in my current trail system that don't exist on garmins copy of the trailfork map.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

bbbr said:


> i have all the turn by turn/forksight/climb pro notifications turned off on my 830. When i want to follow a specific route in the woods, I set the course to be "always display " (with color set to red) and reference the map when I hit an unknown junction. Otherwise the device is constantly squawking and changing map zoom levels every time I go for a ride. I like the trailforks integration paired with a high quality 24k topo map, makes it very easy to pick the correct trail at a large junction. My only complaint is that i would like it to be updated a little more frequently- there are several new trails (created within the last 2 years) in my current trail system that don't exist on garmins copy of the trailfork map.


You can get routes directly from TF by using the Garmin iQ app, which is a TF app that installs on the device. That'll get you the most recent as far as I know, if any bodies ridden and tracked that trail set.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

bbbr said:


> i have all the turn by turn/forksight/climb pro notifications turned off on my 830. When i want to follow a specific route in the woods, I set the course to be "always display " (with color set to red) and reference the map when I hit an unknown junction. Otherwise the device is constantly squawking and changing map zoom levels every time I go for a ride. I like the trailforks integration paired with a high quality 24k topo map, makes it very easy to pick the correct trail at a large junction. My only complaint is that i would like it to be updated a little more frequently- there are several new trails (created within the last 2 years) in my current trail system that don't exist on garmins copy of the trailfork map.


This is pretty much the only effective way to use a Garmin to navigate mtb trails.


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## CanuckMountainMan (Oct 29, 2018)

Just finished mounting my new Garmin Edge 530 (with Mountain Bike Bundle) on the New Farley 9.6
Quite impressed that it managed to get a satellite signal down in the basement man-cave. :thumbsup: 

I was a bit concerned reading some of the comments, but all good so far. (fingers crossed)
Install and update was Cake!. Sync to my Windows 10 laptop with Express
and pairing to my Samsung S9 smartphone for setup with Connect was quite painless. 

Menu system was intuitive without reading the manual. 

... and wireless remote that comes with the MTB Bundle Rocks!


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## Doctorsti (May 25, 2008)

Verboten said:


> I've been using a Garmin's 530 for about a month. After you get over garmin's UI issues, it's pretty useful. The trail forks and Strava integration is great. Out of the box, it's set up to show your map when you stop on the trail, which is great for figuring out turns at forks. While navigating and riding, it alerts you to upcoming turns and places an arrow right on the map that conforms to the shape of the trail, which I find very easy to understand while in motion. The climb pro feature is pretty nice while navigating. It automatically switches to an elevation view and indicates your progress and remaining distance. This is a great motivator when you are on a new climb and feeling gassed. The Strava live segments are fun to use as well, giving you clear real time feedback when trying to improve a time or racing your buddies. I popped for the mtb bundle which includes a bar mounted remote for switching screens and such... much easier than using the units button while in motion. It's the first bike gps I've used where I feel like I know where I'm going without having to stop and fiddle with the unit. It took about a dozen rides and watching a few YouTube videos on how to configure custom fields and features to get that comfortable with it.


I have an 830 and have totally given up on trying to do anything with this piece of $&@?. Every time I get to anything that has courses or navigation the stupid thing takes me on roads. I can't figure out for my life how to integrate Strava premium and Trailforks with this thing.

What I want is for it to tell me which way to go at forks so I can follow popular loops at my local trails. I think it can but I can't figure it out AT ALL! Is there a resource or something to learn this. I'm so frustrated right now I'm about to throw it.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

Doctorsti said:


> I have an 830 and have totally given up on trying to do anything with this piece of $&@?. Every time I get to anything that has courses or navigation the stupid thing takes me on roads. I can't figure out for my life how to integrate Strava premium and Trailforks with this thing.
> 
> What I want is for it to tell me which way to go at forks so I can follow popular loops at my local trails. I think it can but I can't figure it out AT ALL! Is there a resource or something to learn this. I'm so frustrated right now I'm about to throw it.


I'm no expert on these Garmin torcher devices, but have found if you turn off the following features, things work better for me on the trail:

Recalculation
lock on road
Popularity routing

You can also turn Climb Pro off is you don't want that feature, but it has grown on me when navigating.

Use Strava Live Segments instead of Garmin Segments if you want to use those, requires the Strava Premium membership.

Trailforks just worked out of the box for me, you access it from the navigation menu.

I had to spend some time reading the manual and watching some YouTube videos to figure it out. Garmin stuff is terribly designed in my opinion, but after some effort... it becomes easier to use.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Verboten said:


> Garmin stuff is terribly designed in my opinion, but after some effort... it becomes easier to use.


That isn't quite right. I mean, it's not a mobile phone interface, but it's not a mobile phone, either. It's also not idiot proof. You definitely have to dig into the settings menus because there are a crapton of settings to choose, and every generation only gets more settings because people want ever more features. The thing about dedicated GPS receivers is that they require some base knowledge about navigation concepts. They've always been that way, and if you take that part away, then they lose a lot of their power. Garmin tried that once, and it didn't work out well for them.



Doctorsti said:


> I have an 830 and have totally given up on trying to do anything with this piece of $&@?. Every time I get to anything that has courses or navigation the stupid thing takes me on roads. I can't figure out for my life how to integrate Strava premium and Trailforks with this thing.
> 
> What I want is for it to tell me which way to go at forks so I can follow popular loops at my local trails. I think it can but I can't figure it out AT ALL! Is there a resource or something to learn this. I'm so frustrated right now I'm about to throw it.


Sounds like you need to dig into your navigation settings. Sounds like it's trying to lock on roads. That's a setting you'd certainly want enabled if you were on a road bike. Probably not on a mtb. You connect Strava and Garmin on the software side of things (on Garmin Connect). See here:

https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us...Strava-Live-Segments-on-your-Garmin-Edge-1030

Also, if you expect alerts at trail intersections, I think you're going to be disappointed. You can set things up that way if you use a website such as RideWithGPS, build a course, and insert turn notifications, but that takes some work. If the trail network doesn't exist on RWGPS, or is incomplete, you'll miss notifications. Further, you'll get a LOT of off-course notifications on trails. It's not entirely Garmin's fault. It's just that trails are usually not mapped to an extremely high accuracy, and combined with the inaccuracies inherent in the GPS system related to riding bikes in the woods, there will be a lot of false alarms about being off course.

The most effective trail navigation for these devices is to simply display your course on the map. You still won't know about intersections unless your basemap contains good detail for the trail network you're riding. That may or may not happen. It takes a little work to ensure you have quality maps for the trail system in question.

Again, Garmins aren't idiot proof, and the more you want the device to do FOR you, the more time you're going to need to invest to set it up to do what you want. Me, I only want a couple simple things. I want the device to record my ride (and report time/distance type metrics). I want to see where I am on a map. I'm not too concerned about the detail of the map on my GPS. I just want it to be detailed enough that I can use it as a reference to point my location on a paper map. I can also pull out my phone and use Trailforks or MTBProject maps if I don't have anything better. That's pretty much it.

I've experimented with having the device navigate for me, and I just don't like it. I prefer to do my own navigation. By a large margin. I want my device to assist me with making nav decisions, not to take over the nav process. I've been burned enough times in 20yrs of using GPS devices of many types that I won't rely on them for navigation.


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## unerlaubt (Aug 2, 2019)

Harold said:


> That isn't quite right. I mean, it's not a mobile phone interface, but it's not a mobile phone, either. It's also not idiot proof. You definitely have to dig into the settings menus because there are a crapton of settings to choose, and every generation only gets more settings because people want ever more features. The thing about dedicated GPS receivers is that they require some base knowledge about navigation concepts. They've always been that way, and if you take that part away, then they lose a lot of their power. Garmin tried that once, and it didn't work out well for them.


You have to be a masochist to enjoy using Garmin products.

There is nothing stopping GPS device makers from laying out their user interface in aesthetically pleasing and functional ways, especially for activity specific units like these Edges. Well, I guess their employees who lack those skills are stopping them. A bar mounted gps can and should be designed better.

The one things I think they did very well on is the turn warning system and turn arrows on the map. They are super easy to use, even while riding technical trails. When not navigating a set route, the map system is pretty good. I have mine configured to switch to the map when it sense that I have stopped, this makes figuring out where to go next quick, usually without pushing any buttons. But I am fortunate, as Trailforks provide pretty good map coverage out here in AZ.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Verboten said:


> You have to be a masochist to enjoy using Garmin products.


Garmins are a joy to use compared to some other products I've used over the years. They really aren't that difficult.


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## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

There is a state forest about an hour away from me that has a ton of good riding - I've done rides there several years ago but am just starting to go back there now. The problem is that the person who took me there and knew the trails isn't riding much now, so I can't really rely on him to show me around anymore.

I've been looking at Trailforks and the identification of trails in the area is very hit-or-miss. However, when I look at the heatmap, I can definitely see how people are accessing these trails.

I think what I would like to do is use Trailforks to plan and save routes - in many cases drawing in the trails that I see in the heatmap that do not appear in the regular database of Trailforks trails. Then, I want to download my route and display it on a GPS unit while I am riding. I am not really interested in TBT - it could be nice, but in reality I think if I could just look down at the GPS when I come to an intersection and determine which way to go from there, I would be fine. One thing that is important is that I don't want to have to take my rideplans and submit them to Trailforks to have official Routes created - I am definitely interested in helping to extend the database of trails in the area, but I don't think it would be appropriate to create routes with hand-drawn trails. Honestly - I wouldn't be surprised if Trailforks rejected such routes.

I am not a GPS person at all, and all I've done up until now is run Strava to record my rides. I'd love feedback on my above intentions, and I am also looking for suggestions on an appropriate GPS unit. From what I've seen in this thread, it seems like a Garmin 530 or 830 would be more than sufficient for my purposes, but again, I don't have any experience with GPS units so I am open to suggestions. Thanks!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> One thing that is important is that I don't want to have to take my rideplans and submit them to Trailforks to have official Routes created - I am definitely interested in helping to extend the database of trails in the area, but I don't think it would be appropriate to create routes with hand-drawn trails. Honestly - I wouldn't be surprised if Trailforks rejected such routes.


So let me get this straight - you want to help map the system, but you don't want to use TF's established system (which is pretty much stupid easy) to submit trails?

I mean, I've mapped plenty of trails. The first ones I mapped were well before such online databases existed, so my data was pretty much exclusively for print maps. Collecting the most accurate data for mapping trails should involve walking the trails and not recording at riding pace. Positional accuracy will drop as speed increases. But online databases like Trailforks and MTBProject don't even want data that good because of the server load it places on their end.

And just about everything I've done has involved some amount of hand drawing to clean up errors and add clarification (like adding a little artificial separation between two trails to make it clear that they are different). This includes stuff I've submitted to Trailforks and MTBProject.


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## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

Harold said:


> So let me get this straight - you want to help map the system, but you don't want to use TF's established system (which is pretty much stupid easy) to submit trails?


Sorry - I didn't explain that well at all. Yes - I will help add trails to Trailforks. However, I would want to ride these trails and have an actual GPX file for the trail before I submit it to Pinkbike, rather than just hand drawing a route where I attempt to approximate what I see on the heat map. But I need to create the routes with the hand-drawn sections first to help me navigate the trails.

What I don't want to do is create publicly visible routes with these hand drawn sections in them. That might be an unnecessary detail, but I want to make sure I can use things that under 'My Routes' in Trailforks.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> Sorry - I didn't explain that well at all. Yes - I will help add trails to Trailforks. However, I would want to ride these trails and have an actual GPX file for the trail before I submit it to Pinkbike, rather than just hand drawing a route where I attempt to approximate what I see on the heat map. But I need to create the routes with the hand-drawn sections first to help me navigate the trails.
> 
> What I don't want to do is create publicly visible routes with these hand drawn sections in them. That might be an unnecessary detail, but I want to make sure I can use things that under 'My Routes' in Trailforks.


Oh, that's no problem.

Use something like RideWithGPS to build test routes.

I have used the standalone program Topofusion for years for a number of purposes. One thing it does well and very easily is overlay multiple rides, and allows you to hand-draw trails. I used this program a lot prior to uploading to MTBProject early on. I had several people out riding trail networks, and I'd overlay all their tracks (with all the variation in them) and then hand draw an "average" between all of them for a given named stretch of trail, which would be the file I'd use for my paper map. I did similar when beginning to submit to MTBProject. Of course, MTBProject would simplify that route even further after upload, so the accuracy would be even less than what I submitted.

Late last year, I submitted some changes to Trailforks for a major trail reroute, and for that one, I just used the data for one ride. I used Topofusion to trim it down to the relevant segment of trail, did some extra splitting and splicing of files from TF's own database to fix a side trail that I didn't even ride that day, and then submitted those trails as edits to Trailforks.

I think your system of wanting to test navigation before submitting is admirable, but I think it's more work than is necessary. The accuracy isn't that good for these things, and there's a sort of buffer built into the systems to account for it.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

In my experience, TrailForks has a significantly better database of single trail trails then RWGPS. You can easily generate a route on TF, save it and send it to the TF app on a smartphone. Your call if you want to use a smartphone on the handlebar, I know of people who do, they use a QuadLock Mount, seems to work well. 

I’ve had luck using a Garmin (1030) that has the TF Connect iQ app on it, created a route on TF online, then downloaded to my device. It correctly showed me the route I wanted with turns and the trails indicated. You can do this on a Garmin 830 which has a smaller touch screen, not as easily on a 530 which doesn’t have a touchscreen so is harder to pane and zoom the map. 

Note that it can be hit/miss with routing on trail systems as the TF trail maps are trails folks have ridded and who uploaded the ride. There can be many trails in a on area that nobodies tracked and whose intersections TF is not aware of, so heads up.


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## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

Harold said:


> Oh, that's no problem.
> 
> Use something like RideWithGPS to build test routes.
> 
> ...


This makes me realize how little I know about this process. So here's a question: is there a way to download the gpx traces for the rides that I can see in the Trailfork's heat map? That would be incredibly useful. There's a lot to these tools that I just don't know yet.


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## CanuckMountainMan (Oct 29, 2018)

This very basic Garmin 530/Trailforks youtube tutorial was very useful for me as a first time user:


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Catmandoo said:


> In my experience, TrailForks has a significantly better database of single trail trails then RWGPS. You can easily generate a route on TF, save it and send it to the TF app on a smartphone. Your call if you want to use a smartphone on the handlebar, I know of people who do, they use a QuadLock Mount, seems to work well.
> 
> I've had luck using a Garmin (1030) that has the TF Connect iQ app on it, created a route on TF online, then downloaded to my device. It correctly showed me the route I wanted with turns and the trails indicated. You can do this on a Garmin 830 which has a smaller touch screen, not as easily on a 530 which doesn't have a touchscreen so is harder to pane and zoom the map.
> 
> Note that it can be hit/miss with routing on trail systems as the TF trail maps are trails folks have ridded and who uploaded the ride. There can be many trails in a on area that nobodies tracked and whose intersections TF is not aware of, so heads up.


You're aware that SqueakyWheel is asking about a situation where the trails aren't listed on TF at all, and only appear on the heat map, right? Meaning he's interested in contributing to the map.



SqueakyWheel73 said:


> This makes me realize how little I know about this process. So here's a question: is there a way to download the gpx traces for the rides that I can see in the Trailfork's heat map? That would be incredibly useful. There's a lot to these tools that I just don't know yet.


From the heat map? If it works anything like Strava's heat map, each track is anonymized and can't be traced back to a specific activity. There was a time where Garmin let you access absolutely everybody's activities in your area from a search. Problem is, there are some massive privacy issues with doing that, so Garmin and everybody else who's using GPS activity data have been paying a bit more attention to those privacy concerns.

Particularly, activity websites have been utilizing the Courses functionality of more recent Garmin devices for sharing activities. Quite a few sites let you create "Courses" for Garmin devices and then share them around. MTBProject gives a way to load them outright into the service. They show the underlying trails network, but they also list "Rides" which typically include multiple trails in a system, a specific direction to ride everything, and relevant details. Trailforks does similar and calls them Routes. In both cases, they are usually bigger, more scenic, more challenging options. But they can give you a good idea of the best ways to ride certain trails.


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## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

Catmandoo said:


> Note that it can be hit/miss with routing on trail systems as the TF trail maps are trails folks have ridded and who uploaded the ride. There can be many trails in a on area that nobodies tracked and whose intersections TF is not aware of, so heads up.


Well aware - this is why I need to find an option that doesn't involve pulling my phone out every time I come to a trail junction. I don't trust the battery on my phone to last for a multi-hour ride, which is why I am considering one of the Garmins. As long as it can show me where I came from and the route I am trying to do, I am confident I can figure out where to go.


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## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

Harold said:


> From the heat map? If it works anything like Strava's heat map, each track is anonymized and can't be traced back to a specific activity. There was a time where Garmin let you access absolutely everybody's activities in your area from a search. Problem is, there are some massive privacy issues with doing that, so Garmin and everybody else who's using GPS activity data have been paying a bit more attention to those privacy concerns.
> 
> Particularly, activity websites have been utilizing the Courses functionality of more recent Garmin devices for sharing activities. Quite a few sites let you create "Courses" for Garmin devices and then share them around. MTBProject gives a way to load them outright into the service. They show the underlying trails network, but they also list "Rides" which typically include multiple trails in a system, a specific direction to ride everything, and relevant details. Trailforks does similar and calls them Routes. In both cases, they are usually bigger, more scenic, more challenging options. But they can give you a good idea of the best ways to ride certain trails.


Thanks Harold - sounds like I need to start trying some things. Would use say something like TopoFusion is a necessity for what I am trying to do?


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

Harold said:


> You're aware that SqueakyWheel is asking about a situation where the trails aren't listed on TF at all, and only appear on the heat map, right? Meaning he's interested in contributing to the map.


Well, he stated Hit or Miss, so I read it as he wanted to use what he could and contribute for stuff not tracked.

You've covered it well though, by recommending a couple of different sources. Strava will have some Heat Map (that's their term) rides, Garmin Popularity Routing and possibly some on RWGPS and certainly MTBProject will have others.

I personally don't find RWGPS useful for single track. They are OK for fire roads, thus I tend to look at TF for a first look at what trails might be possible.

And @ Squeaky, you can download to a Garmin any .gpx file. You do this via a file transfer having found the file, save it on a PC, then do a USB transfer to a Garmin device into a specified folder. DCRainmaker, among others, has decent information about how to do this. It works very well.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> Thanks Harold - sounds like I need to start trying some things. Would use say something like TopoFusion is a necessity for what I am trying to do?


It's one option that I happen to like. You can download a free version to see if it will work for you, and do some test work. I have $1500 mapping software that does those jobs "better" except Topofusion's process is simpler to use for jobs like this (and can work natively in .gpx format), that don't require "better" processing/manipulation.



Catmandoo said:


> I personally don't find RWGPS useful for single track. They are OK for fire roads, thus I tend to look at TF for a first look at what trails might be possible.


As with everything, the underlying maps depend on who's been uploading, and whether they've been thorough. Lots of very old singletrack trails in my area that are well covered on the OSM maps that RWGPS uses, though. Don't like what shows for your area? You can contribute to OSM to make it better. Just like you can with Topofusion and with MTBProject. Still, I was speaking specifically to the route creation tool itself, and not so much the maps available.


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## CAmountainjam (Sep 7, 2012)

Hi all,

I've read through the thread and it's been a help, so thank you! I haven't been able to answer my main question completely, though - hoping you can help.

My girlfriend and I are about to do a 6 week road trip around the western states with our bikes, and I'm considering getting a dedicated GPS unit to mount to my bars. The 530 looks good, I think. I'm not interested in TBT at all - all I want is to have a very similar / the same experience using Trailforks as I do with my phone, but I don't want to have to bring my phone on rides to pull out of my pack.

I'd like to be able to turn the unit on, look at a map, and see where I am in relation to the TF trials around me. Bonus points if I can click in and read about each trail, as I do in the iOS map.

With the TF iOS map, I can download all trials for a state and they live on the device. I read earlier on this thread that the base map tiles themselves don't download and I need to look at a given region while connected to the internet in order for the base map tiles to cache before riding. But, as I write this, I'm in California looking at TF on my phone on airplane mode (wifi turned off), and I'm looking at trails and basemaps in Oregon (haven't been there in over a year) with enough fidelity for my needs. Is this how the Garmin Trailforks app works? Can I download an entire states' worth of trials + base maps and have them live on the device? Or do I need to somehow download like a ~10 mile x 10 mile square of trail + map data at a time? Possible to do this with my iPhone, or do I need to do it from a laptop?

Thank you for your help!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

CAmountainjam said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've read through the thread and it's been a help, so thank you! I haven't been able to answer my main question completely, though - hoping you can help.
> 
> My girlfriend and I are about to do a 6 week road trip around the western states with our bikes, and I'm considering getting a dedicated GPS unit to mount to my bars. The 530 looks good, I think. I'm not interested in TBT at all - all I want is to have a very similar / the same experience using Trailforks as I do with my phone,


It's not going to work the same as your phone. It just won't. Not possible because of how different the software running the devices is. The Garmin is going to be a MUCH simpler system (as in, fewer options). You will get some information, but not everything the app gives you.

Garmin's device overview page gives you some of the answers you seek.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/621224#overview

You are going to be restricted on how much you put on the device. There's limited memory, so it's just a rule. I don't specifically know how much Trailforks map data the device can hold (as with other maps on Garmins in general, it will probably depend more on how many trails are contained in that data than it is on arbitrary state boundaries), but it already has Garmin's Cycle Map (road focused maps) for the whole country loaded in occupying space.

Realistically, as with any Garmin, I'd expect that the more you travel, the more attention you'll have to give to your Garmin to ensure you've got the maps you want for the area you're riding next. At least with the connected features on the newer ones, you can do at least some of that without plugging it into a computer. The Garmin won't completely replace using the TF app on your phone. Honestly, I think you'll find at least some of those functions on the Garmin to be of little use. I have an Edge 520 and an Oregon 450T, so I lack some of these functions, but when it comes to maps ON the device (and I've loaded some decent ones, and my Oregon has topos for all of north america preloaded), my use stops at visual referencing of the maps. If I need more details, then I'm pulling out something else like a large format paper map or an app on my phone.


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## CAmountainjam (Sep 7, 2012)

OK, very helpful. It doesn't sound like it's worth it for my needs. Thank you Harold - much appreciated!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

CAmountainjam said:


> OK, very helpful. It doesn't sound like it's worth it for my needs. Thank you Harold - much appreciated!


To be clear, I find it very useful to have a quick reference on my bars. You also get functions that TF on your phone DOESN'T offer. So it does reduce one's need to reference the phone. But there are times the phone or a paper map still needs to come out. Just depends on where I am and what I'm doing.


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## Stahr_Nut (Nov 7, 2006)

I have a general Trailforks question. I suspect the answer is buried in a thread somewhere but I'm not sure exactly how to phrase a search entry to find the info I'm looking for.

When building a route in Trailforks by "Selecting Trails" how do I tell it I want to turn off one trail and onto another if the one section of trail does not end where I want to turn? So both the section of trail I would be on at the time and the trail I want to turn on to show up on the Trailforks map but the trails are mapped in segments such that the section of trail I would be riding on continues past my desired turn point.

Thanks.


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## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

Stahr_Nut said:


> When building a route in Trailforks by "Selecting Trails" how do I tell it I want to turn off one trail and onto another if the one section of trail does not end where I want to turn? So both the section of trail I would be on at the time and the trail I want to turn on to show up on the Trailforks map but the trails are mapped in segments such that the section of trail I would be riding on continues past my desired turn point.


I don't think you can do what you are trying to do using the 'Selecting Trails' option. I was playing around with that a bit ago, but it seems to require that the entire trail be used. I've been using the 'Draw Route' option instead. It takes a little patience but gives you much more flexibility.


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## SqueakyWheel73 (Sep 21, 2018)

Harold said:


> To be clear, I find it very useful to have a quick reference on my bars. You also get functions that TF on your phone DOESN'T offer. So it does reduce one's need to reference the phone. But there are times the phone or a paper map still needs to come out. Just depends on where I am and what I'm doing.


Given my experience the past few days trying to navigate trails I am unfamiliar with using a phone that I have to pull out of my pack, I would think that having something like a Garmin 530 would be a huge benefit for what CAmountainjam is trying to do. Everytime I see a trail forking off, I have to stop, get my phone out, take my gloves off (probably should stop wearing full fingered gloves for a bit...) and finally figure out which trail is the right one. Then reverse the process to put the phone away. What could be a quick glance down is a couple minute stop each time - its driving me crazy.

I totally agree that something like the Garmin 530 is not going to do everything that CAmountainajam wants, but if I was traveling for 6 weeks and riding lots of places I was unfamiliar with, I would think that having something mounted on the handlebar that could help me determine the right direction to go at each trail intersection would be pretty much essential. And that is regardless of how much of a headache it might be to manage the maps on the Garmin.


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## Stahr_Nut (Nov 7, 2006)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> I don't think you can do what you are trying to do using the 'Selecting Trails' option. I was playing around with that a bit ago, but it seems to require that the entire trail be used. I've been using the 'Draw Route' option instead. It takes a little patience but gives you much more flexibility.


Thanks that appears to have worked! But when you say it take a little patience you're not kidding.


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## CAmountainjam (Sep 7, 2012)

FWIW, for those looking for something like I described earlier, I just fired up my old iPhone 6s and it seems to be working fine after connecting to wifi and downloading Trailforks. I need to find and old charger, and then I'm gonna try it on my much smaller old 5s. Could get a cheap Android device (and there are some small ones around), a bar mount, and just use that as a dedicated Trailforks machine. Battery life won't be quite as good and it won't have turn by turn, but you'd be able to see all the trails, and could get a couple other apps (OnX, Gaii GPS, Strava, etc.) to supplement some of the features of a Garmin.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

SqueakyWheel73 said:


> Given my experience the past few days trying to navigate trails I am unfamiliar with using a phone that I have to pull out of my pack, I would think that having something like a Garmin 530 would be a huge benefit for what CAmountainjam is trying to do. Everytime I see a trail forking off, I have to stop, get my phone out, take my gloves off (probably should stop wearing full fingered gloves for a bit...) and finally figure out which trail is the right one. Then reverse the process to put the phone away. What could be a quick glance down is a couple minute stop each time - its driving me crazy.
> 
> I totally agree that something like the Garmin 530 is not going to do everything that CAmountainajam wants, but if I was traveling for 6 weeks and riding lots of places I was unfamiliar with, I would think that having something mounted on the handlebar that could help me determine the right direction to go at each trail intersection would be pretty much essential. And that is regardless of how much of a headache it might be to manage the maps on the Garmin.


I know what you mean, but I also acknowledge that unless I'm following someone who knows the trails I'm riding, I'm going to need to consult whatever map I have with some frequency.

Several years ago, I was riding a fairly frequently traveled trail system just outside Vegas, and I was doing a TON of stopping and consulting maps. The map I got from the shop was junk. MTBProject didn't show the area well. But Trailforks showed it reasonably well. Problem was, the signs on the ground didn't match up with the Trailforks maps. It was irritating and I wasn't riding as much as I wanted, because there were a lot of intersections to navigate. Someone else who knew the area better happened to be doing more or less the same route, and so I put my nav crap away and just followed. Sometimes, there's just not that much you can do.



Stahr_Nut said:


> Thanks that appears to have worked! But when you say it take a little patience you're not kidding.


I haven't used TF's tool, but with RideWithGPS's tool, you can switch between different selection/route creation tools. For example, I've created routes that used a mix of surfaces where I might be following listed roads or trails where I can do a large selection method, but then I move to something that's not on the map, or maybe I'm cutting through a parking lot or any number of things that might not be selectable, and then I have to free create a portion of the route using satellite images, and then switch tools and go back to selecting roads/trails.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

CAmountainjam said:


> FWIW, for those looking for something like I described earlier, I just fired up my old iPhone 6s and it seems to be working fine after connecting to wifi and downloading Trailforks. I need to find and old charger, and then I'm gonna try it on my much smaller old 5s. Could get a cheap Android device (and there are some small ones around), a bar mount, and just use that as a dedicated Trailforks machine. Battery life won't be quite as good and it won't have turn by turn, but you'd be able to see all the trails, and could get a couple other apps (OnX, Gaii GPS, Strava, etc.) to supplement some of the features of a Garmin.


I see what you're saying here, but the absolute last thing I want is a phone on the bars. The Edge 520 I use now is about the size I'm willing to tolerate. Much more is too much. I'd rather dig my phone or paper map out of my pack or a pocket.


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## CAmountainjam (Sep 7, 2012)

Yeah, I hear you. But the iPhone 5s isn't hugely larger than the Garmin. Anything later than that would be pretty big tho.

Garmin Edge 520: 2.9" x 1.9" x 0.8", 60g
iPhone 5s: 4.8" x 2.3" x .3", 112g

So the iPhone is 1.4" longer, 0.4" wider, and and 0.5" thinner. It does weigh a fair bit more though. Iphone 4 is smaller yet, but I don't think it'd run iOS 9, which is required for Trailforks.

The Palm Android phones are tiny - I don't want to buy one just for this, but would be curious how well Trailforks runs on one of those.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

Harold said:


> I see what you're saying here, but the absolute last thing I want is a phone on the bars. The Edge 520 I use now is about the size I'm willing to tolerate. Much more is too much. I'd rather dig my phone or paper map out of my pack or a pocket.


The issues with the 530 series is there's limited internal memory, no SD card capability and the device is button only, no touch screen. Having a TS makes it MUCH easier to zoom and pan on the map, which is useful to see where you've been and where you will end up on a trail. The 520/Plus/530 series are not as good for using maps as the 830 and 1030. The larger touch screens makes viewing the map easier.

In truth I would (in the shoes of the OP) first try a re-purposed smartphone with the TF app. I would download as many TF maps as possible. The phone GPS will work without a SIMM card and if you need extra battery life, you can add a battery stick, which is how a lot of ultra long distance cyclists use phones and GPS units.

I have only once used TF to create a route on local single track and it worked well. I used the On-Line site, Routes-Route Planner-Selecting Trails. That's the option for mouse/pointer clicking on the trails. You then find the trails you want to ride, place a start point and click on the trail to follow, selecting the route using mouse/pointer clicks on whatever trail you want to follow. You create a course this way, save it and can than download to the device. I was using a Garmin 1030 so used the TF app on the device to download. I had elevation selected so saw the trails on a Topo map (which never mattered). It gave me TBT and showed on the map where the turns were. It worked pretty well.

Note that in my experience, TF online route planners sucks on a tablet or phone, as the resolution of a finger on a small screen is sometimes not able to accurately select a trail on the screen. This might be a problem for a traveler on the road, but is something to check out in advance.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

CAmountainjam said:


> Yeah, I hear you. But the iPhone 5s isn't hugely larger than the Garmin. Anything later than that would be pretty big tho.
> 
> Garmin Edge 520: 2.9" x 1.9" x 0.8", 60g
> iPhone 5s: 4.8" x 2.3" x .3", 112g
> ...


That's a LOT bigger. That iphone 5s is more or less 50% longer than the Garmin, 20% wider, and almost twice as heavy. That's pretty substantial. Thickness doesn't matter as much, until you get WAY too thick.



Catmandoo said:


> The issues with the 530 series is there's limited internal memory, no SD card capability and the device is button only, no touch screen. Having a TS makes it MUCH easier to zoom and pan on the map, which is useful to see where you've been and where you will end up on a trail. The 520/Plus/530 series are not as good for using maps as the 830 and 1030. The larger touch screens makes viewing the map easier.


Sure, I take a reduction of some functionality by using a model with physical buttons. But with that said, on the bike, I HEAVILY prefer physical buttons and I HATE touchscreens. I also think that the 1030 is too damn big. The 830 is much better in that regard, but I hate touchscreens on the bike. There's just no way around that other than physical buttons.

With the increased size and weight of functional phones, you get less stability in whatever mount you use. Phones are less robust in rough environments, and so now you've gotta factor in a protective case into the dimensions (which makes it even bigger). Phone touchscreens are uber sensitive to sweat (and vary a LOT from one model to the next). Some have been usable, but irritating. Some get downright demon-possessed in the presence of sweat. I live in the southeast, so sweat happens whether you like it or not.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think the modest loss of functionality by using a device without a touchscreen is a problem. It solves more problems than it creates, and for the few problems it does create, it's not difficult to find workarounds.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

I should note that with Garmins, it’s possible to dump any resident maps and install whatever maps you want, OSM or TF as example, thus in practice resident memory limits proves to not be an issue.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Catmandoo said:


> I should note that with Garmins, it's possible to dump any resident maps and install whatever maps you want, OSM or TF as example, thus in practice resident memory limits proves to not be an issue.


or, at least, less of one. The way Garmin does maps, it's pretty easy on a lot of devices to have more actual memory than necessary for maps and the real limit becomes the number of map segments or tiles that are loaded.

The Oregon 450 (the regular one, without the built-in maps) had enough memory built-in that I ran into the map tile limit when using 24k topos. I lost that one in the woods, and replaced it with an Oregon 450T (with built-in 100k topos), and don't run into that tile limit anymore. And I can still put a microSD card in it, which in effect becomes more useful for loading waypoints, tracks, and such, rather than maps.


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