# Amanda Batty leaving pinkbike



## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

<sigh> 
Never give in, never give up.
the drawing board: Why I'm Leaving Pinkbike


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

The gamergate of bikes. I wish it surprised me.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

PinkBike. Where Luddites in TLD and flat brim hats gather.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

It's too bad she's decided to leave her blog on PB. I hope she doen't stop writing. I follow Amanda on FB and appreciate and respect her opinions and perspectives


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

I was gonna post about this but since i've been beaten to it, I'll just add that I hope she comes and blogs/posts here instead.


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## BigDweeb (Dec 2, 2005)

pinkbike commenters = unsupervised 14 year olds

she is better off without them


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Problem is most pinkbike commentormentors are in their 20-40s...as are the editors/mods who allow it and encourage the trolling and the hate... Amanda got it right when she said they want it because it brings more click-revenue...


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

That is disgusting and should not be tolerated. Here is her post quoted below for those that are lazy like me and don't like to click on hyperlinks.



> Why I'm Leaving Pinkbike​Most of you know that I've been a pretty active member of Pinkbike for a few years now. It's been a great ride with lots of connection, opportunity and information. Because I have enjoyed it so much and have enjoyed so many of you, I want you to know why today is the last day I will be an active or contributing member of Pinkbike.
> 
> As usual, it's a bit of a haul, so your continued patience is appreciated.
> 
> ...


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## BigDweeb (Dec 2, 2005)

DeeEight said:


> Problem is most pinkbike commentormentors are in their 20-40s...as are the editors/mods who allow it and encourage the trolling and the hate... Amanda got it right when she said they want it because it brings more click-revenue...


Commentormentors - nice. Hard to believe that they are > 30 yrs old. But I was referring to their effective age.

I agree that the folks who run the website are culpable.

I guess I'm done clicking there.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Little wonder to me their site is always the last to get news to post that we here at mtbr learned about ages before. Boost hubs and Plus size tires are making the trollytots over there lose their **** lately, but it was 650B before that, and 29ers before that, and this past winter it was fat bikes. Why should Trek for example rush to tell them about Boost hubs they've partnered in the development with, when their team riders who'll use them include women like canadian racer Emily Batty, who is likely treated just as badly as Amanda Batty (no relation to each other beyond last names) but bikerumour was reporting on it last january.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

BigDweeb said:


> Commentormentors - nice. Hard to believe that they are > 30 yrs old. But I was referring to their effective age.
> 
> I agree that the folks who run the website are culpable.
> 
> I guess I'm done clicking there.


I urge people here to report posts that you find offensive. The mods, admins and site manager on mtbr are sensitive to sexist and racist posts and do not tolerate them. We have no way of monitoring the thousands of posts here weekly and won't see them all so we depend on the collective to help us out.

Personally, I want more women to post throughout the forum. It really does keep us all in check in terms of how we interact with each other. If you are getting abused, pm any of us.

Totally disheartening to see some of the comments that people post with respect to gamergate, etc.


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## BigDweeb (Dec 2, 2005)

girlonbike said:


> I urge people here to report posts that you find offensive. The mods, admins and site manager on mtbr are sensitive to sexist and racist posts and do not tolerate them. We have no way of monitoring the thousands of posts here weekly and won't see them all so we depend on the collective to help us out.
> 
> Personally, I want more women to post throughout the forum. It really does keep us all in check in terms of how we interact with each other. If you are getting abused, pm any of us.
> 
> Totally disheartening to see some of the comments that people post with respect to gamergate, etc.


Wait.... just to clarify: I was talking about commenters on Pinkbike, not MTBR. MTBR seems pretty level most of the time. At least to me.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

BigDweeb said:


> Wait.... just to clarify: I was talking about commenters on Pinkbike, not MTBR. MTBR seems pretty level most of the time. At least to me.


"most of the time".


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

BigDweeb said:


> Wait.... just to clarify: I was talking about commenters on Pinkbike, not MTBR. MTBR seems pretty level most of the time. At least to me.


Yup. I know that. I'm just stating what our expectations are here so that people know. Sorry for the confusion, uh...BigDweeb... 

As formica noted, there have been some posters that have been banned for the same so I wanted people who read this to know that I would hate to lose readers because of the same treatment as Amanda received on Pinkbike.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

Huh... wow... good to know that Jeff Brines (Pretty Faces film producer) is a rape culture apologist...

(from the comments on Amanda's post):



> Jeff Brines5 hours ago (edited) - Shared publicly
> 
> Hey Amanda
> 
> ...


I'm not sorry--comparing a bicycle to a drunk woman who will do anything you ask her is perpetuating rape culture.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Littlebird, can you do a facebook link to that pathetic apology? I couldn't find it on the FB page. And yes, that is a pathetic lame ass excuse of an apology. Talk about trying to split hairs on semantics to weasel out of it....


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

It's posted via Google+ on the original blog post from Amanda (the drawing board: Why I'm Leaving Pinkbike). I'm replying to him now; I'm pretty gobsmacked.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Especially the Pretty Faces connection. That is disturbing.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

^^ Exactly.


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## BigDweeb (Dec 2, 2005)

Since I've already waded into this I guess I'll keep going. 

FWIW I am a guy and a Dad of 2 daughters. 

I'm not up to speed on the definition of "Rape Culture"... 

But if I overheard this Jeff Brines clown say "he often gets lucky with less effort when his girlfriend has a bit much to drink" about my kid I'd be pissed (to say the least). And, by extension, anyone else's kid.

Also - his female ski film is called "Pretty Faces"? Jeez.

On a positive note I took them to see a Portland Thorns (Womens Pro Soccer) game this weekend which was awesome.

Just a clueless dad trying to navigate this sh!t...


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

It was Lindsay Dwyer's ski film, all about women who rip. He was the producer of it. It was supposed to be a big breakthrough film in focusing only on women.

Re, the review _a male Pinkbike writer who compared the malleability and handling of a bike frame to a 'girlfriend after too many shots' _i There are so many other less offensive ways to handle this. If it had to be a sexual reference, why not something like, "You got your girl so hot she'll do anything"... at least that takes the vulnerability of someone who is incapacitated out of the equation.

What is Rape Culture? | WAVAW | Women Against Violence Against Women


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

I messaged radek (pinkbike founder) to see if he was up on the blog Amanda wrote since he, being the site founder is ultimately one of the folks that other people will try and pin the blame on for how his staff operates and how they perpetuate the trolling and what not to the detriment of all mountain bikers (not just women) and got...

"What am I supposed to get blamed for?" as a reply. Not a "I'll check with the editors, or I didn't know that was going on, or I only handle the technical issues now, message so and so instead to complain..." 

Gee...if that happened here mtbr members and the industry folk who know the site history would figure Francois or Gregg would be the ultimate captains of the ship here and be the ones called to task for the going ons under them... apparently not so over there. But I shouldn't be surprised....they have what...four women total listed as staff contacts versus something like forty men. I dunno about what Amanda's next move is, but I think her sponsors might want to take another look at ever providing products for review/contests/news to pinkbike again (if they do so already).


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Aha... found the rape culture guy she refers to... its Mike Levy, listed in the pinkbike contacts as their Technical Editor....

DEMO vs DEMO - Is Newer Better? - Pinkbike

_*HANDLING - I'd argue that last year's bike was on par for what I expect from a downhill rig in that it's certainly not going to hold any rider back so long as it suits how they ride, but it's also a machine that is quite "lively" compared to some of the recently released DH bikes with longer wheelbases that seem to stick to the ground better when speeds pick up or it gets really rough. That said, Troy Brosnan and Mitch Ropelato both rode 26" wheeled Demos last season with stock geometry and it surely didn't hold them back, did it? The benefit of the 2014 Demo's animated personality is that it will, much like your girlfriend (or boyfriend) after a few shots, do pretty much anything you ask of it. In downhill bike terms, it feels like it's nimble and playful, which is great if that's what you're looking for, but it's in complete contrast to what the 2015 Demo's longer wheelbase and larger wheels offer up*_

It originally didn't say (or boyfriend), that was edited in after Amanda complained about his statement.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

I did like part of her response in the comments...

_Go back up and read the line. Is it necessary to making his point? Is I funny? Does it add value to any member of the bike community? Does it reflect positively on how we see the women and girlfriends inside of our sport, or is it a generalization about how all the girlfriends of the men on this website act after a few shots?

For me, I really pray that this bike doesn't act like a couple of MY girl friends after a few shots -- that would be creepy. They get all weepy and sad and then they throw things. Or me, where I wander the bar and hug strangers._

I myself talk loudly when drunk (well louder than my usual loud), so in a bicycle comparison I'm like a creaking bottom bracket when I've had a few too many shots in me... so its clearly possible to make a too many shots comparison to a human without adding to rape culture.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Even if you _could _ pass off the girlfriend analogy as some innocuous comment (which you can't, it conjures exploitation imagery to say the least), I don't know why they would keep defending it and even update it with the boyfriend part. It's so juvenile and vapid and really insults the sophistication of the reader, and I guess, speaks to the audience over there.

Seriously, are they hoping the reader gets to that section, relates with the analogy, then turns on their internal Foghorn Leghorn voice and says, "yuk yuk, now I suuuuure do ah waaaant that bieeeeeke"?


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

chuky said:


> The gamergate of bikes. I wish it surprised me.


+1.

gabrielle


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## shredchic (Jun 18, 2007)

DeeEight said:


> I messaged radek (pinkbike founder) to see if he was up on the blog Amanda wrote since he, being the site founder is ultimately one of the folks that other people will try and pin the blame on for how his staff operates and how they perpetuate the trolling and what not to the detriment of all mountain bikers (not just women) and got...
> 
> "What am I supposed to get blamed for?" as a reply.


Wow. That's not even an intelligent move on his part. Women are the fastest growing segment within mountain biking. So long, PB. It's nice to see men responding with disapproval as well.

Anyway, good on ya, Amanda Batty. Perhaps MTBR or other venues will see a good opportunity and snatch you up.

Thanks for shedding light on this, Formica.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shredchic (Jun 18, 2007)

Mistaken post.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Procter said:


> Even if you _could _ pass off the girlfriend analogy as some innocuous comment (which you can't, it conjures exploitation imagery to say the least), I don't know why they would keep defending it and even update it with the boyfriend part. It's so juvenile and vapid and really insults the sophistication of the reader, and I guess, speaks to the audience over there.
> 
> Seriously, are they hoping the reader gets to that section, relates with the analogy, then turns on their internal Foghorn Leghorn voice and says, "yuk yuk, now I suuuuure do ah waaaant that bieeeeeke"?


Procter, you and I don't agree on much, but you knocked it out of the park with this post. Took the words out of my mouth.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

warimono said:


> Wow. It's as if two consenting adults cant consume alcohol and get rowdy. Sad that people equate that with rape culture.
> 
> If people can be held responsible for drinking and driving they sure as **** be able to be responsible for other actions while intoxicated.
> 
> I think it's a good thing that Amanda got so much pushback on that topic. Consensual sex with girlfriend(or any other consenting party) =! rape and the fact that some universities are starting to treat it as such is really scary.


It's not about having a few drinks and "getting rowdy," it's about taking advantage of the fact that a woman is intoxicated. Taking advantage. Operative phrase. Do you not see the difference?

For those interested in some education before posting, useful links:

Rape culture isn?t a myth. It?s real, and it?s dangerous. - Vox

Shakesville: Rape Culture 101

A "Rape Culture" Tutorial for the Naysayers | Toula Drimonis

And if a woman publicly stands up and speaks out against something as sexist, at great risk to her career, maybe listen to her and consider what she is saying.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Except using multiple shots of alcohol to achieve that end result takes away the victims ability to provide proper legal consent... THAT's the point of rape culture you're not grasping. The courts across the lands have held that intoxicated people cannot give informed consent.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

If you go to the orignal review in question, it in no way references two drunk adults getting frisky with each other. It references "too many shots".



> The benefit of the 2014 Demo's animated personality is that it will, much like your girlfriend after a few shots, do pretty much anything you ask of it.


This post illustrates the problems with the above very well:


Procter said:


> Even if you _could _ pass off the girlfriend analogy as some innocuous comment (which you can't, i_t conjures exploitation imagery to say the least),_ I don't know why they would keep defending it and even update it with the boyfriend part. It's so juvenile and vapid and really insults the sophistication of the reader, and I guess, speaks to the audience over there.
> 
> Seriously, are they hoping the reader gets to that section, relates with the analogy, then turns on their internal Foghorn Leghorn voice and says, "yuk yuk, now I suuuuure do ah waaaant that bieeeeeke"?


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

For me it's really not a terribly offensive thing to write, more just an obnoxious, unnecessary thing to publish.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

Here's the thing, though--many women have experienced rape in that manner: being overserved, or having too much to drink, or whatever, and then being taken advantage of (aka raped). To read about it in a joking manner, in the middle of a seemingly innocuous bike review post--that can seriously hurt, if not trigger a PTSD episode, people who've experienced that. So are you really saying victims of sexual assault shouldn't use the internet? 

I haven't personally experienced that kind of assault, but I am offended by that situation being presented as a joking matter, because it normalizes the behavior and makes it seem okay. And it's not.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

8iking VIIking said:


> Same. Sometimes I look at this kinda stuff and say "THIS is what offends people these days?"
> 
> Juvenile and obnoxious? Yes. Offensive? Not to me. If this offends you, you should probably stay away from the internet


While I agree, I do think it is indicative of a larger issue... Why does PB think that's useful to publish? Not why do they think it's acceptable, we can agree it's nothing too terrible, but why do they think it's useful? The answer likely does lead itself to phrases like 'rape culture,' unfortunately.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

And regardless of how bad that "joke" is--Amanda had every right to say, "Not okay," and when she did, she received threats from commentors. And the editors of PB did nothing, and blamed her. 

THAT is most certainly not okay.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

8iking VIIking said:


> No, but hypersensitive people should browse the internet at their own risk. I see far, FAR more offensive things just browsing through Facebook.


It is not hypersensitive to find rape jokes offensive. I like to call it basic human decency, actually.

Also: You're too sensitive - Geek Feminism Wiki


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## dompedro3 (Jan 26, 2004)

I see a lot more offensive stuff as well, but it often is presented in a way that makes it obvious that the entire point of the article is to offend you. This comment was published in a way that assumes the entire reading audience would see it as simply a normal fact of life and that is what is offensive. I see racist, sexist and just plain crazy things every day, but rarely are they presented in such a nonchalant manner. 

That one little line does two things for readers:
1. It introduces to some the idea that it's ok to use alcohol to get what you want sexually.
2. it reinforces in others that misogynist behavior/comments are acceptable in an everyday setting. 

Want to get an idea about the results of behavior and comments like this do a little exercise:
Think of five college educated women in your life: coworkers, siblings, spouses, children, etc...now think that at least one of them was most likely sexually assaulted in college. Why does this happen? A lack of respect for women. 
Where do men learn that lack of respect? The world around them, including pinkbike articles. 
What can you do about it? Don't excuse those who toss around comments like this, respect women and teach other people how to as well.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

littlebird said:


> And regardless of how bad that "joke" is--Amanda had every right to say, "Not okay," and when she did, she received threats from commentors. And the editors of PB did nothing, and blamed her.
> 
> THAT is most certainly not okay.


Yea agree with this. You can dispute the intent and the harmfulness of the girlfriend comment all you want, but making threats and finding someone's home address in response, is completely indefensible.



warimono said:


> It's ok if you and other readers are offended at the comment, you are allowed to be. It's ok that Amanda want's to leave because enough people disagreed with her stance on a stupid comment and don't want to change it.


If all it was, was public disagreement with Amanda, I'd be fine with your position. But if you read her post, the response she got from commentators went way further than that, including tracking down her physical address - that is a whole different level of malice.


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## dompedro3 (Jan 26, 2004)

warimono said:


> It's not ok for anybody on here to suggest that I cannot give consent to sex after the number of drinks of my choosing.


Interesting, so it is pretty much ok, in your mind, if you wake up and your butt hurts but you can't remember anything because you chose to get blackout drunk? Your drinking habits absolve the individual who raped you?


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## dompedro3 (Jan 26, 2004)

warimono said:


> You are missing the key point though, consent. If I cant properly articulate that I consent it's not consent. If at the time I do give consent and wake up and my butt hurts, then well, I guess I made some poor decisions huh? Unless of course that is what I wanted.
> I conveniently chose not to get blackout drunk so that this is a non-issue.


I would say more that the chap your were drinking with raped you (you probably wouldn't have consented if sober right?) and it had less to do with your decisions and more to do with his behavior. Specially if he was aware you would not make the same decision if sober.

Will people drink and make bad decisions? Yup, since the beginning of time
Is is ok take advantage of that alcohol induced bad decision making ok? No


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

warimono said:


> How intoxicated is intoxicated in this specific context? Show me specific laws with blood alcohol limits. Drunk driving laws have specific guidelines to determine this, but sexual consent laws?
> 
> Lets look at some things. After one beer a person is intoxicated to a degree, correct? Their body chemistry has been altered by alcohol and their decision making process changed. *It's complete and utter dog **** to think that if myself and my girlfriend have a beer then bang that we are criminals guilty of rape. Anybody who thinks this to be true should kill themselves and not pollute our gene pool and political environment further. *
> 
> ...


1st bolded: no. one. is. saying. this.

2nd bolded: well, some state laws say this. But if you had previously consented, while sober, to have blackout drunk sex, then it's not an issue. It's not rape. You would not think of it or report it as rape, so it doesn't matter.

Dompedro3 said it above:



> That one little line does two things for readers:
> 1. It introduces to some the idea that it's ok to use alcohol to get what you want sexually.
> 2. it reinforces in others that misogynist behavior/comments are acceptable in an everyday setting.


That is why that one little line is problematic.


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## BigDweeb (Dec 2, 2005)

So you would be OK with someone saying "Your sister will pretty much do anything I ask after a few shots"?


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Way to try and misdirect. I believe the question is, 
So you would be OK with someone saying "Your sister will pretty much do anything I ask after a few shots"? That is about a reaction or emotion, not whether you control someone else's behavior. So, would you be ok with someone saying that about your sister/girlfriend/wife or other respected female in your life?


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## dompedro3 (Jan 26, 2004)

warimono said:


> For me to control my sisters actions and sexual habits would be terribly misogynistic, wouldn't it?


I think the gist of the comment was to force you to think of a woman you respect and then apply that perspective to women in general.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

warimono said:


> 1. That is EXACTLY that is behind the meaning of some of these comments. And more dangerously how law or university policy could be applied. Many of the laws are written vague without specific guidelines. But none of the laws I read say drunk = lack of ability to give consent. How incapacitated and and resistance to the advances are more the cornerstones of the laws.
> 
> 2. Any law that cannot be true to justice in all situations exactly the way the law is written is piss poor and should not be on the books. The whole "it's only a problem if somebody says it's a problem" is super dangerous and gets people hurt. If you make a bad decision and then decide it wasn't the right one in the morning that is on you, not the other person.
> 
> ...


1. No, it isn't. Again, no one is saying this. I often have sex with my husband after a few drinks. It is not rape. But he also doesn't take advantage of me, absent my consent or my ability to consent, because, yanno, he's not a rapist and an *******.

2-8% of rape accusations are false (false convictions are even lower). That's it. This idea that women regret decisions and cry rape is not a common thing. http://ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf

And you know what's *actually* dangerous? Being a woman in a country where 1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted--many of those women more than once.

2. Have you heard of the US constitution? Bring this up with the Supreme Court, see what they say. LOL.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

warimono said:


> Doesn't matter. It's as if you are suggesting that women are incapable of making and being responsible for their own situations like they are weak.


Except here's the thing, rapists often use alcohol as a tool.


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## dompedro3 (Jan 26, 2004)

warimono said:


> Doesn't matter. It's as if you are suggesting that women are incapable of making and being responsible for their own situations like they are weak.
> 
> If somebody likes to get drunk and bang their boyfriend why do I care?


Actually, I'm trying to shift the focus from victims to the perpetrators. I am suggesting that taking advantage of anyone because they are drunk is wrong. Being drunk is not the issue, taking advantage of someone who is drunk is.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

It is not the same at all. 

The statement implies that the girlfriend is impaired in a way that she may not be able to give consent, and may not be giving consent at all. It also implies that it's funny or cool or acceptable to feed your girlfriend a few shots in order to get her to do anything you ask. 

We are not making up problems. Please read the links I posted upthread about rape culture and maybe you will understand this all a little better.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Warimano is getting way out of line. Feel free to report him to the moderator.
He's welcome to his opinions, but I for one don't welcome them in this thread. There is no reason to start turning things around on our posters to try and make a point or for any of us to feel uncomfortable or attacked.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

formica said:


> Warimano is getting way out of line. Feel free to report him to the moderator.
> He's welcome to his opinions, but I for one don't welcome them in this thread. There is no reason to start turning things around on our posters to try and make a point or for any of us to feel uncomfortable or attacked.


Yeah, agreed. As this whole PB issue has highlighted, women still need safe spaces in the MTB world. The Women's Lounge subforum is meant to be one of them, and warimano is violating that.


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## BigDweeb (Dec 2, 2005)

dompedro3 said:


> I think the gist of the comment was to force you to think of a woman you respect and then apply that perspective to women in general.


yes - that was my intent for the question


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## gregg (Sep 30, 2000)

Okay, guys, this is a direct warning to 8iking VIIking and warimono.

I think you guys have forgotten where you are posting. This is the Women's Lounge and it is a forum for WOMEN. You might want to read this ( http://forums.mtbr.com/womens-lounge/womens-lounge-women-guys-read-183860.html ).

Your troll-ish comments are not welcome here and you are only exacerbating the problem. If you continue in this manner you will be given a temp ban.

-Gregg Kato, Site Manager of Mtbr.com


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I really appreciate the _supportive_ male commentary in this thread from the guys who actually get where the women are coming from, or at least, why this whole thing has our attention.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Wow, some real morons on the WL today, I deleted their posts (but not your replies with their quotes) in the hopes that no one else has to come home tonight, click on the WL, and read them.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

I'm a man and found the quote in the Pinkbike inappropriate, and it's not the first time that I've seen it in their articles. Many comments there are moronic, and offensive. I'm happy that MTBR is a little more grown up than that. These sites should be here for all mountain bikers, not just immature males. 

Here is a quote by Mike Levy in his review of the Knolly Warden. "Rigs likes this are purpose built to make you forget about your shitty day at work, your loud kids, and your fat wife yelling at you for buying this exact bike."

I bought one in part because of his review. I really believe in free speech, and I'm not offended easily, but this is a bike review, not some crappy standup routine. Pinkbike has some great info but they need to grow up a bit.

Also, my wife once bought me a 5 Spot frame for Christmas💕💕💕


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

This is rich, warimonomoron neg rep'ed me earlier with this as the reason....

"For perpetuating anti freedom of consent and protectionist state mentality.
"

Extra glad I reported his arse for his remarks.


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## shining_trapezoid (Mar 24, 2014)

I hope this whole sh!tstorm causes a massive rift in the mtb world with some of the disrespectful, out of touch turds showing their true colors. I also hope that it puts the nail in the coffin for the many people who already realize the PB community sucks and we all turn a permanent cold shoulder to that sewer. The fact that there are guys trying to defend and rationalize the comment that led to this debacle and the ensuing behavior of the editors over at PB makes me want to punch myself in the face.


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## miatagal96 (Jul 5, 2005)

I'm all for a good joke and I think the world has gone a little far in political correctness, but the original offensive comment isn't even a good joke. It is creepy to me. And the response from Pinbike tells me that Pinbike management has a lack of respect for women. If they want to cater to creepy immature men, it's their choice. Hopefully, advertisers will soon realize that that's not where the money is.


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## bloodninja (Jul 11, 2012)

Why did I click this thread? I have no idea who Amanda Batty is, and must have confused her with Emily Batty. I just wish I could enjoy one hobby without bringing gender/race politics into it. I just want to ride bikes...


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## dompedro3 (Jan 26, 2004)

gregg said:


> Okay, guys, this is a direct warning to 8iking VIIking and warimono.
> 
> I think you guys have forgotten where you are posting. This is the Women's Lounge and it is a forum for WOMEN. You might want to read this ( http://forums.mtbr.com/womens-lounge/womens-lounge-women-guys-read-183860.html ).
> 
> ...


Well said Gregg.


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

Stripes said:


> While you're at it Gregg, could you please do something about the guy with the boob avatar? I don't think it's fair you call them out, but you leave a guy here with a boob avatar here to freely run his trap on the WL and continue to take it over.


+1 to that.


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## Guest (May 13, 2015)

It's too bad that the internet has proven (time and time again) to show us at our worse rather than our best. The misogyny lurking beneath the surface of our "enlightened culture" tends to bubble-up in ways I think no one imagined when blogging first came to popularity. We (collectively) seem intolerant of dissenting views (regardless of factual basis) when we're on the internet. At some point I think I was in the "it will eventually change for the better" camp. But one after another we're losing access to talented female writers because we can't seem to play fair. I wonder if Sheldon Brown or Jobst Brandt would have incurred this wrath had they been female or written under a female psuedonym? I would bet so. Keep fighting the good fight, change comes to those with persistance sooner than to those with patience.


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## dompedro3 (Jan 26, 2004)

Well that was embarrassing, I completely forgot I even had an avatar. removed it, my apologies


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

In a similar fostering of rape culture... this just in on canadian news this morning...

Lauren Wiggins, Moncton teen, takes stand against 'unjust' school dress code - New Brunswick - CBC News

And yesterday we had this jewel play itself out in a way the guys involved probably were not expecting...

Firing of Shawn Simoes for off-duty 'FHRITP' video reflects employment trend - Business - CBC News

To go along with Maple Leaf Entertainment Group, which owns the facilities used by The Maple leafs NHL franchise, the Toronto FC soccer club, and the Raptors NBA team has banned the "gentlemen" from all their facilities for life.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

DeeEight said:


> In a similar fostering of rape culture... this just in on canadian news this morning...
> 
> Lauren Wiggins, Moncton teen, takes stand against 'unjust' school dress code - New Brunswick - CBC News
> 
> ...


Here in the U.S., Jameis was the number one draft pick after saying the exact same thing. 

Why were they heckling the female reporter? I don't even get how these things happen...


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

I know where you're coming from but dompedro has been more than respectful here. So he or she had an avatar from long ago -they changed it out and apologized. That's fantastic, IMHO. 

We need allies here and while things aren't always peachy king, the rest of the men posting in this thread have been extremely supportive and I appreciated their voices. Outside of the two guys that Gregg called out, not one guy trolled. 

As for the what should I build for my gf/wife/daughter threads, I just completely ignore those like I do in general or the beginners forum. 

I'm mostly in the vintage forum and it's all guys and me. There are no sexist post there ever. Plenty of men are in the forums and respectful. Just the few obnoxious ones that spoil it for everybody and while I like the idea of a girls only club, I think we need the boys to comment and learn from us as well.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Aw give the guy a break... he contributed some respectful/appropriate/supportive comments, and he apologized for the avatar.

{looks like I simulposted with girlonbike}

Speaking of avatars, whatever happened to the The Dude Memorial Aviator?
(inside joke for longtime wl participants)


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Stripes said:


> However, every time a controversial thread comes up or a "help me get my wife/so/whoever on the bike" thread comes up, it feels like this place becomes the "girl's room for guys to come in here and tell us their opinions and how things should go according to them." Don't need that, KTHXBYE.


So you want guys' opinions represented in this forum, but only when they agree with your own? Should we submit our comments for you approval prior to posting?

Seems to me the guys, myself included, who have posted in here in support of Ms. Batty are providing just as much insight and perspective on the situation as the ladies. I see no reason why a couple bad eggs, who have already been addressed, or an avatar you disagree with should change any of that.


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## Blackies Pasture (Mar 3, 2015)

deleted. you do not need to know I agree with you


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Blackies Pasture said:


> deleted. you do not need to know I agree with you


Sure we do. I want to know when I'm right.


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## Blackies Pasture (Mar 3, 2015)

girlonbike said:


> Sure we do. I want to know when I'm right.


I didn't know who Amanda Batty is, but I already knew who she was (through supporting womens and girls mountain biking), I just didn't know her by name.

I was floored that anybody (aka blogger / reviewer guy) could write about a bike being compared to a drunk woman.

So I wanted to agree with her, and support A.B. because despite her outspoken writing style, she can win the "shut up and put up" game. This is evidenced by her efforts to bring females into downhill without bragging about it.

So: If we look on the happy side: Can we (men and women who support WMTB) attribute the subtle rise in women in MTB print advertising to Nicole Formosa, Amanda Batty and that lady who writes for Bike Magazine that makes me laugh so hard I forget her name.


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## dompedro3 (Jan 26, 2004)

formica said:


> Aw give the guy a break... he contributed some respectful/appropriate/supportive comments, and he apologized for the avatar.
> 
> {looks like I simulposted with girlonbike}
> 
> ...


To be honest, the avatar is a remnant of more than a decade ago, when I was a different person (why I was who I was is probably related to some of the issues at hand here). A lot can change in eleven years of a guys life.

I also understand that, as the sticky says, I am a guest here in WL, and I try not to post here, the pinkbike issue and Amanda's blog post really touched a nerve with me, and motivated me to post. In my haste to post I forgot one of my opinions I hold dear, in that people are rarely convinced to change by internet comments, and ended up feeding the troll.
I promise this will be my last post here for a while.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

dompedro3 said:


> To be honest, the avatar is a remnant of more than a decade ago, when I was a different person (why I was who I was is probably related to some of the issues at hand here). A lot can change in eleven years of a guys life.
> 
> I also understand that, as the sticky says, I am a guest here in WL, and I try not to post here, the pinkbike issue and Amanda's blog post really touched a nerve with me, and motivated me to post. In my haste to post I forgot one of my opinions I hold dear, in that people are rarely convinced to change by internet comments, and ended up feeding the troll.
> I promise this will be my last post here for a while.


Better not be. We are all allowed to grow.

This dialogue from you gents is so much better than the random dudes that come in trying to figure out what colored bike to buy their spouse. Or what top to get them.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

dompedro3 said:


> To be honest, the avatar is a remnant of more than a decade ago, when I was a different person (why I was who I was is probably related to some of the issues at hand here). A lot can change in eleven years of a guys life.
> 
> I also understand that, as the sticky says, I am a guest here in WL, and I try not to post here, the pinkbike issue and Amanda's blog post really touched a nerve with me, and motivated me to post. In my haste to post I forgot one of my opinions I hold dear, in that people are rarely convinced to change by internet comments, and *ended up feeding the troll.*
> I promise this will be my last post here for a while.


Also guilty. 

I second what Formica said upthread, thanks for the support, supportive guys.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

dompedro3 said:


> To be honest, the avatar is a remnant of more than a decade ago, when I was a different person (why I was who I was is probably related to some of the issues at hand here). A lot can change in eleven years of a guys life.
> 
> I also understand that, as the sticky says, I am a guest here in WL, and I try not to post here, the pinkbike issue and Amanda's blog post really touched a nerve with me, and motivated me to post. In my haste to post I forgot one of my opinions I hold dear, in that people are rarely convinced to change by internet comments, and ended up feeding the troll.
> I promise this will be my last post here for a while.


Intelligent, reasonable guys are always welcome, no need to run away now.


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

formica said:


> Speaking of avatars, whatever happened to the The Dude Memorial Aviator?
> (inside joke for longtime wl participants)


Somebody complained about it during the last troll invasion and I was asked to remove it.

gabrielle


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

formica said:


> Aw give the guy a break... he contributed some respectful/appropriate/supportive comments, and he apologized for the avatar.
> 
> {looks like I simulposted with girlonbike}
> 
> ...


I wonder what the reaction would be if it were a woman using that picture as an Avatar...


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

TheDwayyo said:


> So you want guys' opinions represented in this forum, but only when they agree with your own? Should we submit our comments for you approval prior to posting?
> 
> Seems to me the guys, myself included, who have posted in here in support of Ms. Batty are providing just as much insight and perspective on the situation as the ladies. I see no reason why a couple bad eggs, who have already been addressed, or an avatar you disagree with should change any of that.


Doesn't matter if we agree with them or not, that's not the point.

I get to (have to...) hear men's (unsolicited) opinions on just about every subject, every day. I come here to hear what my lady friends think.

The issue is that when men come in here and effectively take over the thread, as Stripes was talking about, they are drowning out our voices. That is not ally behavior, as I believe has been discussed elsewhere in this thread.

tl;dr version: have a licorice allsort:


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

^^Yes, have a licorice allsort!


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

gabrielle said:


> tl;dr version: have a licorice allsort:
> View attachment 988207


Funny you mention allsorts... because here's quote from Amanda on her blog:



> "I believe that *all sorts* of ills are cured through passion -- passionate people change the world." ...


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## BigDweeb (Dec 2, 2005)

gabrielle said:


> Doesn't matter if we agree with them or not, that's not the point.
> 
> I get to (have to...) hear men's (unsolicited) opinions on just about every subject, every day. I come here to hear what my lady friends think.


Wait... I thought this thread was really about mutual respect.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I think it's more about how a lot of men don't get it.


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## Guest (May 14, 2015)

formica said:


> I think it's more about how a lot of men don't get it.


 I thought it was about how Amanda was treated at Pinkbike. I'm not the world's expert on conflict resolution, but I don't think we come together when the conversation splits "us" into "us" and "them." Once we sort ourselves into opposing groups (no matter how mild the terminology), we contest our position not the issue. The real issue appears to be bigger than one individual and how she was treated, the real issue here seems to be about intellectual freedom, freedom of expression and repressive bullying. Again, just a lurking male in the women's forum.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

That is your experience. Is any thread ever about one exact thing? From my perspective, and I suspect I'm not alone, I see the repressive experience where a woman speaks out against being sexualized/rape culture (what ever you want to call it), and the males want to marginalize/dismiss/condescend the voice. I will venture to speak for the group in that this is why the women's lounge exists: one of the few places in the MTB internet world where we don't have to put up with it, and should able to express ourselves freely.

ie, intellectual freedom does not equate with accepting rape culture at least in my eyes.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

I've always thought of Pinkbike as kind of the TGR of cycling - lots of adolescent testosterone. It never really interested me. This doesn't make me want to reconsider that.


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## iscariot (Oct 24, 2006)

gabrielle said:


> I come here to hear what my lady friends think.


Exactly.

I think its about time we had a men's specific sub-forum.

Equality is important.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Here we go again. The whole internet is a men's subforum. Please men if you can't contribute anything positive, respectful, not idiotic, (and yes, supportive of the ladies) please just leave.

from the article below:


> Our attitudes about women need to mature and there's no better place to be part of the change than here in cycling. Women often complain that they feel unwelcome in the bike world, and the moment we recognize that they are rad, make the world a more diverse and interesting place and are fun to ride with, we will all be better off.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

PinkGate | RKP



> When we think about where women fit in the world, our history-the history of mankind, that is-isn't good. Scanning back through the last 1000 years, we have denied women the right to own property, the right to vote, the right to work, the right to have a voice, even the right to be considered people. After all, there once was a time when women, like slaves, were the property of their husbands. Simply controlling their reproductive destiny is currently under fire. Generally speaking, we have evolved a lot, but if this were an elementary school report card, the fact that Saudi women can't drive would merit the comment, "Needs improvement."
> 
> Unfortunately, the cesspool that can be the world of Internet comments has provided a haven for some of the most vile male urges out there. I'm thinking specifically of GamerGate, for starters. For those not familiar with this crisis of civility, a cadre of trolls went after a handful of women in the video game world. You can find a crib sheet over at Wikipedia. What started as uncivil disses of women quickly escalated to threats up to and including rape and murder. And then the doxing started; doxing someone is digging up their personal info, such as address, driver's license number and even credit card info and posting it online. It enables identity theft, which is bad enough, but worse, it means that anyone threatening to rape or kill someone now has the means to track down their target.
> 
> ...


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## iscariot (Oct 24, 2006)

formica said:


> Here we go again. The whole fricken internet is a men's subforum. Please men if you can't contribute anything positive, respectful, not idiotic, (and yes, supportive of the ladies) just get the F out of here.


That's awfully sexist.

I am fully supportive of the ladies. Having a ladies forum is great.

I also think it would be beneficial to have a men's only sub-forum, and I get attacked with threatening and foul language.

I am trying to positively contribute. I think that the ladies forum is a great place to visit and gain another perspective. I would also like to see this type of a space available for men only. And no, the rest of the whole internet is not for men only.

There is no need to threaten me and use foul language.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

What would your men's forum look like? The usual reference is Interbike booth babes. Sorry if I sound angry, I am.


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## gregg (Sep 30, 2000)

Easy on the "f" bombs, formica. I know you're only protecting what is yours (meaning, the strong community in this forum), but it's a bit much.

As for a "mens-only" forum....we've all heard that one before and the answer is no. Ain't gonna happen. So let's just drop that bit of nonsense altogether right now.

-g


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## iscariot (Oct 24, 2006)

formica said:


> What would your men's forum look like? The usual reference is Interbike booth babes. Sorry if I sound angry, I am.


The men's sub-forum would be much like the ladieslounge, but for men.

If would be a safe place to discuss mtbr issues that affect men exclusively.

Women would generally not be allowed to post (or if they did it would at least be closely monitored, just like when men post in the ladieslounge).

There are plenty of health, fitness, and psychological issues related to mtbiking, family, and friends, that men deal with exclusively. Just like there are those that women deal with exclusively.

It would be nice to have an exclusive, safe, and slightly more heavily moderated men's sub-forum to discuss these issues. Just as the ladies have with the ladieslounge. Your assumptions about my purpose for a menslounge are sexist, misandrist, and stereotyping at its worst.

I don't post in the ladies lounge, I actually think this is my first post here, I just thought that this was a good thread to safely talk about equality.

Too bad I was abusively attacked first thing.

Have a great day.


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## Guest (May 14, 2015)

formica said:


> That is your experience. Is any thread ever about one exact thing? From my perspective, and I suspect I'm not alone, I see the repressive experience where a woman speaks out against being sexualized/rape culture (what ever you want to call it), and the males want to marginalize/dismiss/condescend the voice. I will venture to speak for the group in that this is why the women's lounge exists: one of the few places in the MTB internet world where we don't have to put up with it, and should able to express ourselves freely.
> 
> ie, intellectual freedom does not equate with accepting rape culture at least in my eyes.


 Sorry, you lost me. I did not equate intellectual freedom with accepting rape culture. My point is/was that Amanda Batty is not the only female victim of repression in her desire to express herself. The internet is loaded with pitfalls and traps for both women and men who speak out against repressive cultural norms and stereotyping. My son who occasionally plays video games on line (though he's not much of a gamer) comments on how players with female names or identities are treated poorly by other gamers. Sony has a "report this player" function, but it may as well say "waste more time here." As the brother, uncle and supervisor of rape victims, you'll never find a person more opposed to the "rape culture" and if you thought I was defending someone's right to perpuate that culture I owe you an apology.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

That's not a bad idea but you should bring it up with Gregg and not here. IMSHO, this is the wrong thread for the "men need x for equality " discussion. Overall, most women don't feel very equal in the biking world. Race payouts, booth babes or the kind of BS that the Amanda Batty thing has put the spot light on - this is only part of it.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Forster said:


> Sorry, you lost me. I did not equate intellectual freedom with accepting rape culture. My point is/was that Amanda Batty is not the only female victim of repression in her desire to express herself. The internet is loaded with pitfalls and traps for both women and men who speak out against repressive cultural norms and stereotyping. My son who occasionally plays video games on line (though he's not much of a gamer) comments on how players with female names or identities are treated poorly by other gamers. Sony has a "report this player" function, but it may as well say "waste more time here." As the brother, uncle and supervisor of rape victims, you'll never find a person more opposed to the "rape culture" and if you thought I was defending someone's right to perpuate that culture I owe you an apology.


I did indeed interpret the intellectual freedom thing as "people should be able to say whatever they want" and I see that was not your intent. I am angry over this whole thing, and I acknowledge that you've contributed intelligently to this discussion. Mutual apologies, eh?

Good on your kid It shows he's learned from his parents. I have a son who is a gamer, programer, engineer. I see where's he's at about these issues, and it gives me a lot of hope.


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## iscariot (Oct 24, 2006)

formica said:


> That's not a bad idea but you should bring it up with Gregg and not here. IMSHO, this is the wrong thread for the "men need x for equality " discussion. Overall, most women don't feel very equal in the biking world. Race payouts, booth babes or the kind of BS that the Amanda Batty thing has put the spot light on - this is only part of it.


Thanks for womansplaining it to me. That is your opinion. I didn't threaten you at all and I was attacked

If that's what you meant, then why didn't you just say that? Instead you attacked.

You don't know me. You could try that, before you attack me for simply being a man.

I don't want to derail this thread an more. That was not my intent. My intent was simply to express that ladies are lucky to have a place to post like this, and it would be nice if men had something similar.

No need for abusive attacks based on my gender.

I won't post here any more.

Congrats, you have chased off one of the men who are on your side, and appreciate an intelligent female perspective.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

gregg said:


> Easy on the "f" bombs, formica. I know you're only protecting what is yours (meaning, the strong community in this forum), but it's a bit much.
> 
> As for a "mens-only" forum....we've all heard that one before and the answer is no. Ain't gonna happen. So let's just drop that bit of nonsense altogether right now.
> 
> -g


Sorry about that Gregg, and fixed.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

No, iscariot, you were straight up trolling and everyone here can see that.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Shouldn't men be a part of a conversation about gender equality and fair treatment for women? Seems to me that with us (I'm a male) here you are combatting and potentially working to fix the problem, whereas without us here you are just 'preaching to the choir.'

Formica - I think you need to ask yourself if you truly are fighting for gender equality, or simply fighting fire with fire...


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

Men should absolutely be a part of the conversation, but when a man's approach to the conversation is to 1. tell us women why we're [overreacting, overemotional, oversensitive, psychotic, insert any other sexist trope here] and 2. derail the conversation, what are we supposed to do? We tried to educate in this thread and it went over like a lead balloon.

So men who are open to listening to our side, to educating themselves on the matter, and not relying on any manner of sexist derailment and silencing (and if we seem touchy about this ****, it's probably because all women have put up with this our entire lives from various sources)--yes, you're welcome here. Please join the conversation.

But I feel like a woman-designated space is at LEAST one place where, for the love of god, please, can I just not be told that I'm overreacting about some sexism?


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I am really pissed off right now. I get the "do we want to only preach to the choir" point and it's well taken.

If men here have valid ideas on how to fix the rape culture attitude problem, instead of telling us we have a problem because we react negatively, I'm all ears. How DO you change the group-think that allows things like the original bike review in question to be OK? How do you change the attitude that harasses women to the extreme when they express their disgust with the way they get treated?

I find it pretty interesting in that in the second article posted, the (male) writer said, 


> Batty's post has sent shock waves through the industry. I've communicated with several women who were dismayed to learn of her treatment by both the readers and by the staff at Pinkbike. One woman who holds a fairly prominent position with a popular bike company told me on condition of anonymity:
> 
> Many women in the industry have been following this since the day it was posted. Of the women I spoke to, not one of them was comfortable sharing it publicly, citing professional ramifications as the reason why-everyone worried about blowback &#8230; and still, Amanda was doxed-it is terrifying and it sucks that we have to choose between standing up for her and maintaining our professional relationships.
> 
> ...


How about 10,000 more of these?

So, how to you propose to get more men to stand up for what is right?


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

And also, guys, please excuse us if we're really, really, REALLY tired of explaining sexism 101 to every guy who comes in here crashing and banging around, because that's basically the internet for women. It wouldn't kill anyone to use the google to figure out why rape jokes aren't funny. The fact that most men don't tells us that you're not really here to converse or learn, you're here to talk at us. And we're done with that.


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## iscariot (Oct 24, 2006)

littlebird said:


> No, iscariot, you were straight up trolling and everyone here can see that.


No I'm not. I'd like to be able to have a safe place to talk with other men about some sensitive male health issues related to mtbiking without the trolling and adolescent responses.

And about how injury, broken bones, and surgery, has affected my relationship with my lady. There is nowhere to discuss these things on mtbr without bing made fun of.

But thank you for your understanding and compassion.


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## BeDrinkable (Sep 22, 2008)

iscariot said:


> No I'm not. I'd like to be able to have a safe place to talk with other men about some sensitive male health issues related to mtbiking without the trolling and adolescent responses.


You mean like these?

http://forums.mtbr.com/all-mountain/prostate-friiendly-saddles-621854.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/rider-down-injuries-recovery/penis-tingling-numb-after-~30-mins-649945.html

Or a place to talk about "men's specific" equipment?

In all seriousness, people talk about man-centric topics in every forum on here, with the exception of this one. No one here is trolling you; they are just defending their right to a space of their own.

The threads I posted are pretty respectful. I assume you're being disingeuous for a reason but I can't, for the life of me, figure out why.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

The Dwayyo, everything I've "generalized" about has happened *in this thread.* Not really generalizing, then, am I? Would it make you feel better if I said, "This is what I have personally experienced on the internet, and I know many other women have, too?" And if you haven't come in here shouting us down, then I'm not talking about you or criticizing you.



iscariot said:


> No I'm not. I'd like to be able to have a safe place to talk with other men about some sensitive male health issues related to mtbiking without the trolling and adolescent responses.
> 
> And about how injury, broken bones, and surgery, has affected my relationship with my lady. There is nowhere to discuss these things on mtbr without bing made fun of.
> 
> But thank you for your understanding and compassion.


I honestly could not tell that you are being sincere. I apologize.

I would like to say, with all due respect, that this is not the place to assert this need. By doing so, you're making the conversation about you. I realize that this sounds *****y. Please also realize that people with relative privilege who enter discussions around sexism/racism/homophobia and more will end up feeling uncomfortable and making the conversation about your needs is a quick way to get some serious side-eye.

I beg all of the men reading and posting here and who claim to be interested in a true conversation to read up on allying, on feminism, on sexism, on rape culture, anything, please. Here's a link to get started: Julie Pagano - So You Want to Be an Ally

and more: Akilah Hughes explains that when it comes to being an ally: "It's Not About You" - Boing Boing


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

formica said:


> I am really pissed off right now. I get the "do we want to only preach to the choir" point and it's well taken.


Then I hate to be the bearer of this but... pinkbike responded.. on her blog on the site and her own blog site... (for those who don't know, the author Karl Burkat is the CEO of pinkbike and head of advertising... Radek Burkat who I mentioned earlier in the thread is the CTO and Founder of Pinkbike)

*
karl-burkat Mod (2 hours ago)

Hey Amanda,

I read this a couple days ago and wanted to ask everyone internally about all discussions anyone had with you as there are pretty harsh statements and want to find out the issues. I don't quite understand how you're reaching a bunch of conclusions and making some pretty harsh inferences. I would love some clarification.

What do you mean by behind the scenes you were admonished for commenting? Have you ever reached out to anyone at Pinkbike about any abusive comments? Reported any comments? Do you have any examples of discussions you've had with any staff members? No staffer has found anything about you reaching out to report or discuss any of this.

You mention that your final indictment was in August 2014...indictment in what? When did someone at Pinkbike accuse you of doing anything wrong? Did you ever talk with Mike about that comment, or any other staffer? How did you reach any conclusion that anyone at Pinkbike had any issue with it/you?

You again mention that you were shut down, given "pedestrian answers" to your articles. Someone forwarded me discussions you had with editors where they emailed you about potential changes. In multiple cases providing meaningful and thorough justification.

In both instances you ceased the discussion. The discussions ended, because you never wrote back. You said you "emailed more, insisting on an answer". Who did you email? Did you ever email/skype/anything an editor about why something wasn't posted? No editor has received an email from you in over a year besides the examples above. Really perplexed as to what you could be talking about.

When you mention this "As I'm currently waiting on a response to my final email I sent a few days ago". Do you mean the email that you sent Saturday afternoon? and then wrote this blog the day after. It was the first and ONLY email you mention anything about "feeling stonewalled". Besides Saturday, when/where did you ever communicate ANYTHING about being muzzled??

There were several of your articles that ran in the last 6 months, they were good, merited publication. There were several that didn't. Some went up, some didn't. You've never asked anyone why, editors have reached out to you though. You discuss an instance that one editor just told you to do more "research" as if he brushed you aside. This is that discussion, in Whistler, British Columbia, Canada - photo by karl-burkat - Pinkbike It just seems egregiously disingenuous to say you weren't given any explanations.

We are continually increasing the amount of female editors and contributors on Pinkbike, and we're proud that they are helping direct a positive voice for women in cycling through Pinkbike. Their efforts are creating more female content, readers and riders in the sport.

The major issue I take with this is that this is a serious discussion and you've made claims and statements that simply are not true. No one ever takes these things lightly. But you paint a picture that you have been communicating these things, that the editors have been ignoring you, telling you to stop speaking out, make assumptions that you're work wasn't posted because you were a female or were somehow being shut down. I can't find anything that supports that. You can send me a private message at [email protected] as well.*


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Also as someone else pointed out on RKP... from the pinkbike FAQ/Etiquette section...

*Zero tolerance on Hate

Any hate speech or personal attacks will not be tolerated and result in suspension. Any homophobic, misogynistic, sexist, racist or religious hate speech has a ZERO tolerance.
*

_...unless of course its written by a staff member apparently_


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## Guest (May 14, 2015)

formica said:


> I did indeed interpret the intellectual freedom thing as "people should be able to say whatever they want" and I see that was not your intent. I am angry over this whole thing, and I acknowledge that you've contributed intelligently to this discussion. Mutual apologies, eh?
> 
> Good on your kid It shows he's learned from his parents. I have a son who is a gamer, programer, engineer. I see where's he's at about these issues, and it gives me a lot of hope.


 Sounds fair and thanks. You're earlier post had me pretty down. I get your anger and see where you could interpret my comments in a different way. Intellectual Freedom (to me) first requires "Intellect", folks that want to tear away at another Gender, Color, Religion for the sake of amusement or their own agenda probably don't qualify. Having been to parts of the world best described as "more hostile to women" than the U.S. has never made me feel like we're almost there. Rather it always shows me how far we have left to go.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

> Secondly, the last half dozen or so comments from women seem pretty sexist to me... Just in the other direction. How is it OK to generalize about men, when discussing why generalizing about women is not OK?


That may or may not be directed at me. I can't speak for the "we"
but I do get angry and frustrated and it gets very difficult to NOT speak in generalizations, especially with patterns and histories.

It's been appropriately suggested that instead of preaching to the choir, that this discussion could be more productive. What could any of us being doing different? I'm trying, by asking what solutions people suggest. (and not being so pissed off as to be unproductive) I'm trying, by raising my kids (now men) to not accept objectification of women.

The commentary here addresses it very well, I think.
PinkGate | RKP


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

The trolls are out on pinkbike down propping amanda's comments on her blog. Also the PB staff are running their own stories/spins it seems...

Cyclist Amanda Batty quits Pinkbike over alleged sexism

Until 10 mins ago... I'd never heard of the Daily Dot...and I spent a LOT of time online...


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

I think we're all going around in circles not accomplishing anything with a lot of people getting sidetracked and some miscommunication going on.

Can we all take a breather and realize that we got baited by troll posts again? Without anybody getting defensive (because dagnabbit, I'm only referring to a single poster and before you all get hot and bothered, let's just assume it's not you, my good men and lovely ladies. the poster absolutely knows who he is), I think we need to reset.

So, can we be like deeEight who is trying to stay on track? Let's stay on point before this gender war spirals out of control.

Much regards to all the posters here. Good points were raised and we oughta raise a glass tonight to thank our lucky stars that we are who we are and happy enough to have families and healthy enough to ride bikes and alive enough to argue until the death of us.

in other words, xoxox you guys.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Ya know the first thing PB really needs to do is get change that +/- prop thing... and copy mtbr and make it non-anonymous... or better still... just eliminate it. Opinions shouldn't be popularity contests and trolls and cyber bullies shouldn't be rewarded for being themselves. They have rules against trolls and what not, but never enforce them...


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

My goodness what a mess. 

Hey if guys want their own private place to discuss things, by all means, set it up. I can tell you from experience that it will attract crickets and that's about it.

I'm sure there is more to this story that is only now beginning to be unravelled. I read from Amanda on another site that her articles have all been pulled from Pink bike including front page articles that she had published. If that is so, that feels really fricken creepy.

Oh and hi everyone


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

ab favorited a tweet of mine. I feel special now.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

She (AB) also posted four of the rejected articles to her blog...

the drawing board: May 2015

top 4 entries from Dear Beginner through the Oyster one.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

That's some good stuff, I read most of it.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Well she's asked for input from readers, since they were all apparently so bad they warranted rejection... also she posted two images of her blog statuses before and after the rape culture comment... amazing how 3 days later ALL her submissions get rejected. You can see them on her facebook blog.


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## shredchic (Jun 18, 2007)

Edit: Oops I fed the troll.  But honestly I think a men's subforum is a good idea if that means the rest of mtbr can actually be gender neutral for a change.

And woah - Pinkbike actually became even more misogynistic. I wasn't expecting that. So grateful for MTBR.


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## mtbjenlynn (Feb 24, 2015)

So awful! I hate how female athletes are not taking seriously a lot of the time. Sport media reinforces and perpetuates male hegemony that is so prevalent in our society. They are sexualized and forced to live a dual identity, where they can't be too masculine. Sexism at it's "best." Ugh.


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## miatagal96 (Jul 5, 2005)

I just came across this - somewhat relevant - describes consent very clearly. I love it!!

Understand Consent With the Help of Stick Figures and a Cup of Tea | GOOD


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Amanda just put up another blog on this issue...

the drawing board: Round 2: My Foray Into The Mire (Again), AKA: The Proof.


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

I'm really not surprised that they moved on to the classic victim-blaming etc. Which is not to say that I'm not disappointed/upset/furious about it.

Jerks.

gabrielle


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## elainelb (Aug 1, 2014)

Amanda Batty is a brave and tenacious woman. When I read posts/comments that industry men/women are hesitant to support her I'm reminded that institutions have always worked this way. Much easier to isolate an individual (who can doubt themselves) than take on a group (who know it's happening in a widespread manner).


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

This is the blog post that blew my mind. She sums up really well what many of we women know instinctively about the way some bike things are marketed.

the drawing board: Is Selling Sex Worth The Cost?



> Is Selling Sex Worth The Cost?
> 
> 'Sex sells' is a popular term. It's mostly popular because it's true. It's also very honest. This is about the true cost of selling something with intrinsic value through sexualization, but let's touch on a few light particulars of WHY sex sells, shall we?
> 
> ...


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

Can someone point out some examples of where sex is being used to sell mountain biking? Where are these naked women she's talking about?


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## BigDweeb (Dec 2, 2005)

Deep Thought said:


> Can someone point out some examples of where sex is being used to sell mountain biking? Where are these naked women she's talking about?


Oh no...


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

BigDweeb said:


> Oh no...


It's an honest question. I just don't recall having seen much sexist advertising in the last few years. I do recall the Specialized "Get Sick Soon" ad for the Demo. That was a year or two ago. And several years before that, I remember a Pedro's ad involving a stripper pole, for which they were properly and deservedly admonished (great job, gals).

I'm just wondering if there are others?


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## gregg (Sep 30, 2000)

Hello Deep Thought, 

This is not the place to ask for examples of sex being used to sell mountain bikes. To ask this shows a lack of thought or a lack of respect for the entire point of this thread.

-gregg


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

gregg said:


> Hello Deep Thought,
> 
> This is not the place to ask for examples of sex being used to sell mountain bikes. To ask this shows a lack of thought or a lack of respect for the entire point of this thread.
> 
> -gregg


Many apologies for the lack of respect. I honestly did not intend it that way. What prompted me to ask was that, after reading the copied and pasted post from Ms. Batty's blog regarding sex being used to sell mountain biking, I was honestly curious about that notion. So I picked up the latest copy of Mountain Bike Action and flipped through it, looking at all the ads. I could not find one example of a woman being objectified.

I did, however, find ads from several companies depicting women shredding mountain bikes. After the inside cover, the first ad is a two-pager depicting Tracy Moseley. There are also ads featuring women positively from: Ghost, Pearl Izumi, SRAM, Kenda, and People For Bikes. All in one issue.

Again, I'm sorry if I originally sounded like a dude who wanted to see some sex. That is not how that was supposed to sound. I'm also don't mean to sound like there aren't any issues with misogyny in cycling. There are. I guess the point of my question was to wonder if there isn't some embellishment or exaggeration happening here. To over-exaggerate an issue can have a "cry wolf" effect, which takes away from the very real issues at hand (and, yes, we do have a real misogyny issue in cycling).

Plus, let's not discount how far the image and status of women in cycling has come in the last decade. Do we have further to go? Yes. Will we get there by perpetuating an "us" vs "them" argument? Probably not.

I have not seen any evidence of what she's discussing in the excerpt below, and was wondering if I've missed it somewhere. I promise I'm here for civilized discussion, and not trolling.

"First, companies and advertisers need to own up to it. How? We work harder. Photographers need to look for more creative shoot options instead of going for the tired, lazy approach of 'let's just throw a naked chick in there and call it a day'. Stop shooting crap. Stop selling crap, because it won't sell forever. Don't cheapen yourself or lowball your skillset -- if you're talented enough to be a pro photographer, you're smart enough to come up with a better creative than some naked chick standing by a bike."


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## Crankyone (Dec 8, 2014)

Nice recovery!


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

News | Bicycling for one; very recent.

I am trying to think of where I saw recent writing regarding Interbike and the continued use of booth babes...(I believe the reference was something about men and "lycra clad vaginas") but I am not sure.

It is refreshing to see that there hasn't been an MTBR hotties of interbike thread in some years.


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

The misogyny in road cycling is indeed atrocious. I like to think mountain biking is at least a little better than that, but perhaps I focus on the positive too much. 

I think it's sad to watch what's gone down between Amanda and Pinkbike.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Hell Pinkbike is a good place to find that (sex selling bikes) just on what they put on the front page news feed...

It's Not a Total Dude Fest, Today is For The Ladies - Sea Otter 2015 - Pinkbike

The backsides of Fox Booth Babes in the supposedly "women's coverage" article of this year's sea otter classic.

There were photos of booth babes in the recent coverage of the Taipei bike show but it looks like someone went and deleted the photos in the articles in the past few days. I wonder why... they apparently missed deleting one of the booth babes from the Interbike 2014 coverage...

Day 4 Randoms - Interbike 2014 - Pinkbike

In print journalism... google image search "macaw tire girls" and you'll find one of the best examples of excessive use of women's bodies to sell a bicycle product.. but then you could also search for Paola Pezzo images, because apparently looking down the jersey enhances sales of Gary Fisher mountain bikes and Northwave sunglasses. Numerous shots of her cleavage were taken at the Atlanta 96 Olympics and splashed into magazine ads for a year or two afterwards. Marla Streb posed naked on a bike for an issue of Outdoor magazine in the 90s and it sold like hotcakes when it came out. Search for almost any top female XC racer and you'll find a shot of the open jersey / cleavage / sports bra as the image they decided to print of her for whatever publication it was in/on. XC races are typically hot affairs and there's definitely a group of photogs who look forwards to those races because they know zippers will come down for ventilation and women will be bent over the bars on climbs long enough to get THE shot they want to sell to a magazine. And the magazine will use it because it'll help sell the issue more than the articles will.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Deep Thought said:


> I think it's sad to watch what's gone down between Amanda and Pinkbike.


What's sad is how they're trying to sweep it under the rug... the admins are responding on other blogs/publications with their spin but are trying to keep their own members from finding out. And since the majority of PB users live with their heads buried in the sand as far as news in the greater bike world industry...unless say, Decline magazine and nsmb.com pick up the story, chances are they'll succeed at trying to bury the story from the "children" who make up most of their user demographic. So far nsmb has not posted anything about it that I could find, and in fact when I searched for "batty" on the site, a listing to a thread of women's boobs/bodies came up instead in the forums there... so pretty sure we can list them into the same endorsing misogyny as pinkbike attitude category.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Also someone earlier in the commentaries of the original story, especially in posts to Amanda's pinkbike blog referenced a story on thedailydot which was written to be a very pro-pinkbike spin piece IMHO. I'd like to point out that TDD is essentially a troll/pranking news site which regurgitates stuff from other sites as their own news articles and among their notable staff is this charming fellow...

Nimrod Kamer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In April 2012, he made a series of prank videos in which he extorted celebrities vis-á-vis vandalising their Wikipedia pages.[13][14][15] In May 2012, he posed as a rich man and made "indecent proposals" to celebrities such as Kelly Brook attending the Cannes Film Festival"

If that's the sort of humour you want, then the daily dot is the place for you... if you want serious journalism... there are better outlets on the 'net.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

DeeEoight, thanks for keeping up on this. I'm still kicking myself for not bookmarking the Interbike thing I read. People get so inured that they don't see it anymore.


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## elainelb (Aug 1, 2014)

formica said:


> DeeEoight, thanks for keeping up on this. I'm still kicking myself for not bookmarking the Interbike thing I read. People get so inured that they don't see it anymore.[/QUOTE
> 
> It was mentioned in the redkiteprayer article
> PinkGate | RKP
> in the comments


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

DeeEight said:


> It's Not a Total Dude Fest, Today is For The Ladies - Sea Otter 2015 - Pinkbike
> 
> The backsides of Fox Booth Babes in the supposedly "women's coverage" article of this year's sea otter classic.


That's a bit of a stretch... You ignore the dozen or so pictures that represent women as just another rad rider or industry contributor and hone in on one picture that just so happens to have the backside of a couple ladies, despite it not being in a suggestive manner in the slightest.

Not to mention that that booth has a slogan prominently displayed that says 'love thy booty.' I think given that a more suggestive picture might not have been terribly offensive, but they chose not to do that.

I'm not saying misogyny doesn't happen in bike marketing, I definitely believe it does, but you're grasping at straws with that particular example. In fact I'd say that whole article is proof-positive that some publishers are doing it right.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Sure there are some companies that get it. However, unless you've lived the female experience, please don't try to minimize things by saying (we are) "grasping at straws".


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

formica said:


> Sure there are some companies that get it. However, unless you've lived the female experience, please don't try to minimize things by saying (we are) "grasping at straws".


I said he or she (I honestly don't know) was grasping at straws 'with that particular example.' I'm clearly not saying that the overall argument is 'grasping at straws,' in fact I said 'I definitely believe it does' in reference to whether or not misogyny occurs in bike marketing.

I really don't understand your vitriol here. I think my posts have all been thoughtful and carefully worded as not to offend unintentionally, and yet each one has resulted in you basically accusing me of being part of the problem.

If I were in here spouting off at every poster the way you are, but from the opposite perspective, I'd have been silenced long ago.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Some people just want to stir the denial pot...


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

formica said:


> Sure there are some companies that get it. However, unless you've lived the female experience, please don't try to minimize things by saying (we are) "grasping at straws".


There are far more companies that get it than not.

I have lived the female experience (as a bicycle retailer, no less!). Those examples from 20 years ago are "grasping at straws."

To over-exaggerate one issue, while simultaneously ignoring the progress that some of us have worked hard to achieve over the last two decades, serves to diminish the legit arguments we have.

Let's choose our battles, realize that men are human and make mistakes (just like we do!), and work together with everyone to make things better instead of just being angry and self-victimized.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Deep Thought said:


> To over-exaggerate one issue, while simultaneously ignoring the progress that some of us have worked hard to achieve over the last two decades, serves to diminish the legit arguments we have.


Thanks, I was struggling to articulate this and you did so perfectly!


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## elainelb (Aug 1, 2014)

over-exaggerating/ diminish /legit/ arguments
/angry and self-victimized/ 

no comment on the above language presumed necessary. The thing that struck me when I opened the It's Not a Total Dude Fest was how many pics of dudes there were. They did use the caveat 'total'.


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## stacers (Oct 29, 2012)

Deep Thought said:


> To over-exaggerate one issue, while simultaneously ignoring the progress that some of us have worked hard to achieve over the last two decades, serves to diminish the legit arguments we have.
> 
> Let's choose our battles, realize that men are human and make mistakes (just like we do!), and work together with everyone to make things better instead of just being angry and self-victimized.


I was logging on to post something similar. The "it's not a dude fest" link was encouraging and full of stoke for a chick like me that just wants to see females and products for women represented in the industry. I think the sport has come a long way, and I feel like I benefit from that as a newer mountain biker. I suspect that many of the gals here who are very upset have been around much longer, and experienced this a lot more, which is why they are quick to defend. And that's ok, I just think it's good to also recognize that there are some really good guys out there who are fighting just as hard as we are to make sure that women are a part of this sport. I know a lot of them, and appreciate those who have posted respectfully on this thread even when their opinions differ a bit.

I'm fairly new to mountain biking, and as a female I definitely notice the sexism inherent to the sport. To me, it's more apparent in the way I'm treated in my local bike shop (invisible!) or on the trails (dudes who won't let me pass, etc). I read a lot of forums and magazines, and honestly, I haven't seen much of the "naked chicks selling bikes" anywhere. Seems more prevalent in road biking (and I see more of it in my husband's golf mags, fwiw). But there's a definite underlying tone of misogyny, can't deny that.

I will say that as a female, I have always hated Pinkbike, and this issue with Amanda Batty just underscores all of the reasons why. I feel like Pinkbike is one of the worst offenders out there - they allow a general tone of immaturity and sexism to rule the site, and I'm not surprised in the least by the latest. I don't understand why they can't just own up to it and remove the offending language in that review. It's not cool, and it's bizarre that they would dig in their heels over one sentence.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

Well--as a professional editor, I will say that I would have suggested quite a few changes to the posts Amanda posted that were rejected from PB outright--which isn't to say that they're not without merit. The repeated use of "naked" in that article is something I would have changed, because it is stretching the truth. 

But like the ad posted above--the awful Assos ads are run in mountain bike magazines, and they absolutely feature scantily-clad women. 


I was just talking to my husband about something similar last night. He commented that he didn't understand what was racist and offensive about something that many black women see as racist and offensive. I told him that yeah, maybe to us, it's a stretch to see this as racist, but we have never lived the collective experience that black women have, so we can't see it from their point of view, and it's obviously touching a very deep nerve, and we should respect that and consider their position going forward. 

Which is all to say that for many men, you might look around and say, "What sexism?" But you have never lived the collective experience of women in this culture, and there are deep nerves that things like Amanda Batty + PB touch that you may not be able to see from our point of view.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

Also to add to the "sex sells" conversation, that awful blog that Singletracks posted (and subsequently took down) but can still be found (Redirecting you to unofficialnetworks.com | donotlink.com). For those about to protest that a woman wrote it: members of an oppressed group can and still do participate in the systems that oppress them; it doesn't make the thing any less offensive just because it was created by a woman.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

@thedwayyo- sorry, I seem unable to articulate very well or concisely without someone feeling attacked. The other gals are saying it so much better than I can.

As for progress: yes, certainly progress is being made. I see it as a three-steps-forward-one-or-two-steps-back kind of thing. Giant leaps forward with no backsliding would be nicer. Example- many local shops are brining in more women's specific clothing lines like Sheebeest, but I still have to look at a "spread your cheeks" trucker cap on top of a display case. This thread has given me the confidence to speak to the owner. He's a great guy and supports women's cycling in real, tangible ways, and I am a very good customer. But the idea that this cap is offensive has probably never crossed anyone's mind.


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

formica said:


> As for progress: yes, certainly progress is being made. I see it as a three-steps-forward-one-or-two-steps-back kind of thing. Giant leaps forward with no backsliding would be nicer.


Sure, one can dream, but don't you think it's better to be realistic? Is "giant leaps forward with no backsliding" a reasonable demand to place on any human trying to do anything? Would that expectation not discourage a person?

We're getting there. There are still plenty of issues, but women have come a VERY long way in the sport of mountain biking. Let's not set ourselves back by over dramatizing and claiming that there are naked women all over the place. Let's also not over-generalize and demean entire groups of people while yelling about them doing the same thing. Action sports photographers are some of the hardest working people out there. How do you think it makes them feel to have their profession, their passion, their life's work painted with such a broad, baseless brush like this? I'll quote it again, because I take strong issue with treating someone the way you're asking them to avoid treating you.

"First, companies and advertisers need to own up to it. How? We work harder. Photographers need to look for more creative shoot options instead of going for the tired, lazy approach of 'let's just throw a naked chick in there and call it a day'. Stop shooting crap. Stop selling crap, because it won't sell forever. Don't cheapen yourself or lowball your skillset -- if you're talented enough to be a pro photographer, you're smart enough to come up with a better creative than some naked chick standing by a bike."

EDIT: just as I finished posting this, I picked up last month's Mountain Flyer magazine and saw a 9-page feature on Women's XC racing. Nine pages, followed by another 9-page feature written and photographed by a female. HIGH FIVE, LADIES.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I can be realistic but still lean towards a dream. My leaning towards the dream part is the one where I politely ask the shop owner to take down that stupid hat, and wish I didn't have to ask it in the first place. 
I wish for world peace too - I don't know if we have even gotten to two steps forward one step back with that yet.


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

formica said:


> I can be realistic but still lean towards a dream. My leaning towards the dream part is the one where I politely ask the shop owner to take down that stupid hat.
> I wish for world peace too - I don't know if we have even gotten to two steps forward one step back with that yet.


Fair enough, friend. Sounds like a stupid hat.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

It's so culturally ingrained that you may not notice.

Insults such as calling a guy a douche bag, a b****. Or a p***y if they don't perform well enough or is not manly enough. A sissy. Cry like a girl. Throw like a girl. The feminization of something is used as a vehicle to hurl an insult at somebody. It's not even subtle really. So odd that douches became an insult. I remember watching summer's eve commercials and thinking, what is it? sounds like fun! running in fields! Jumping! Laughing!

As for biking, podium girls. Are there podium boys up there for the winners of the womens races? (I'm really asking because I don't know.) And there's marketing:

Only in cycling could a sexual assault inspire a race?s advertising strategy | Sport | The Guardian


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

Another example: The IMBA chapter here used to have Wednesday night rides they abbreviated as "WeNR" rides. 

Ummmm.... Yeah, real welcoming to women! (They have, thankfully, seen the error of their ways and changed the name.)


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

What about this bike at this year's NAHBS?









The Daily Bike: Female Frame Stirs Controversy at Handmade Bike Show | adventure journal

These laundry tag?


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

> As for biking, podium girls. Are there podium boys up there for the winners of the womens races? (I'm really asking because I don't know.)


Yes, as a matter of fact... last years women's race at the Tour.
Women's Tour de France to get 'podium boys' - winners can look forward to a kiss from male models after the race | Daily Mail Online
But the images still have the podium girls..:madman::madman:

It is unfortunate that a search for"podium boys" brings up lots of "men" with the classic "babe"
I did find these,







just regular guys.





















<facepalm> this one comes up in the same search, (2013)


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

More examples of why mountain biking is a cooler sport than road biking.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Deep Thought said:


> More examples of why mountain biking is a cooler sport than road biking.


heh! Well, yeah!! 

I've think we're definitely getting better while companies are getting shamed by men and women on social media. Some older ads:
2012 specialized:








this one has a creepy pedo vibe. 2008 Titus:









Bicycling Magazine responds: How Sexism Is Hurting Cycling | Bicycling


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Don't forget years of Marzocchi booth babes and outright hiring porn stars for their catalogs and calendars...


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## elainelb (Aug 1, 2014)

I tuned in to watch a replay of some slopestyle recently...greeted with oddly(partially-un) dressed woman flanking the riders as they waited for their scores...strange indeed.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Would not be surprised if it was a redbull freeride world tour event.


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## elainelb (Aug 1, 2014)

^ Swatch with PB as a media partner. 
I've been thinking about comment moderation with regards to PB front page articles. I personally have written to moderators asking for the removal of 4 and 5 letter words hurled at Amanda Batty feeling they weren't removed fast enough. If the site hires someone whose opinions are contextually controversial they should (at least) closely monitor the comments. i.e. they are facilitating a foretold reaction (more controversy-more bad behavior-more clicks-more revenue). Similar to the article posted from the woman rider a few months back whose riding was acceptable but whose video began suggestively. Bald faced click fest with ensuing bad behavior. I could go on...I was in fact moved to speak with someone at the PB booth at Sea Otter about these and other instances. I personally know of women who have had offensive experiences on PB.
I'd even liken it to a virtual walk down a dark alley.
Hyperbole aside. Very disrespectful.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

There's the story they tell when other more mainstream bicycle/outdoor media comes calling about this issue...and then the story they tell to the users by their actual actions. The article in bicycling magazine is IF it goes into the print issue, likely going to be read by millions.... compare that to the twenty or so thousand users they get on pinkbike each day with which they try and claim to be the biggest bike site on the internet (of course they also count total member accounts, including all the banned scammer accounts).


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## Pynchonite (Sep 2, 2013)

iscariot said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I think its about time we had a men's specific sub-forum.
> 
> Equality is important.


Jeezus, that'd get dark quick.


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## kinsler (Sep 13, 2011)

Deep Thought said:


> EDIT: just as I finished posting this, I picked up last month's Mountain Flyer magazine and saw a 9-page feature on Women's XC racing. Nine pages, followed by another 9-page feature written and photographed by a female. HIGH FIVE, LADIES.


Plus Brian Ripe (spelling?) wrote a really nice editorial on gender equality in racing. Love me some mountain flyer.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Pynchonite said:


> Jeezus, that'd get dark quick.


don't feed the troll


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## dbdg (Nov 6, 2014)

Pynchonite said:


> Jeezus, that'd get dark quick.


Another site I'm on does in fact have a male specific forum (not bike related site) it has quickly become a gay/bisexual male hang out. so maybe that is indeed a need :thumbsup:


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Stripes said:


> Because you have a penis and we don't. You get treated differently without one, bar none. That's just how things work.


What is that even responding to in my post?

You get treated differently with one too, that's just common logic (if one group is treated differently then obviously the other is as well.)



Stripes said:


> And it's getting old to have the guys come in here and take over the WL when they already have the rest of this place to get their testosterone poisoning on.


This is blatant sexism. I've made nothing but thoughtful, supportive (of the clearly mandated opinion that all posters must share to be allowed to post here) posts and yet I have been attacked like this several times. I really don't want to make this seem confrontational, but I think I have a right to speak up against this nonsense, even in the WL forum.

Can you imagine the reaction if I made a comment about women 'poisoning the forums with estrogen'? I wouldn't, because that's an unfair way to categorize all women based on a very basic biological distinction between the sexes, but somehow it's OK when directed at men.

I understand that accusing someone of 'reverse sexism' may seem trivial, considering that men are definitely given some unfair advantages in our society, but it matters. If we ever have any hope of creating true gender equality it will come from genuine understanding and respect for the opposite sex _on both sides_.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

TheDwayyo, maybe this will help you understand where we're coming from: If I Admit That 'Hating Men' Is a Thing, Will You Stop Turning It Into a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy?


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Stripes said:


> No, that wasn't directed at you. It was actually directed at some of the trolls here to take the bait..
> 
> But I said what I said to make a point. This is what we go through all the time. It did get you a bit worked up, didn't it?  And unfortunately, this is not how we treat each other. Apologies to you, but not to the trolls here.
> 
> ...


So why did you quote my post if you weren't directing your response to me?

I think it's interesting that this thread was posted in the Women's Lounge. This issue concerns me as a man... Maybe not as much so as it would a women, but I want to be a part of the solution too.

I guess that's kind of indicative of my whole problem; do you want a safe place to chat about this where us mean men can't intrude, or do you want a reasonable conversation (moderated by increased preference for females as per the rules of this subform, which I think is appropriate) that may be a part of moving toward a solution?



littlebird said:


> TheDwayyo, maybe this will help you understand where we're coming from: If I Admit That 'Hating Men' Is a Thing, Will You Stop Turning It Into a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy?


That's a good article, but it doesn't excuse some of the language I've seen towards men in here. If you want a gender equality movement to be taken seriously it needs to actually strive for gender equality. I get that misogyny has much more tangible effects in our society, but that doesn't make misandry a reasonable solution.

I said this earlier but it bears repeating; in order for anything positive change to occur women need men to buy in to their logic. I typically do, but not when I'm being lumped in with all the mouth-breather misogynists of the world.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I think Amanda Batty is on a roll. Her most recent post talks about the power of experience, and how no one can truly know most of another's experience.
Even for the most well meaning, well educated, well informed, thoughtful, supportive male I think this is true of the female experience. They can try, really try to understand, and even get it in an intellectual fashion. But for a male to truly understand how pervasive certain attitudes are, in almost every aspect of our day to day lives, is rare. They would have to be not men.

the drawing board: The Power Of 'Experience'

Just this morning I was reading an infographic about nutrition and body fat. Every single image of the "healthy" female, (30% or less body fat, the images went down to anorexic) showed the thigh gap. How unrealistic is that? I wrote a note to the website.

I'm doing my darn best to not be argumentative and attacking. I disagree that MTBR oversight is inattentive. I certainly don't expect a censored atmosphere full of rah rah men... which if every single guy who posts here gets, we will have. I see efforts to contribute and foward the discussion. I've certainly been guilty of knee jerk posting and I am trying to be mindful of it.


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## Guest (May 21, 2015)

girlonbike said:


> It's so culturally ingrained that you may not notice.
> 
> Insults such as calling a guy a douche bag, a b****. Or a p***y if they don't perform well enough or is not manly enough. A sissy. Cry like a girl. Throw like a girl. The feminization of something is used as a vehicle to hurl an insult at somebody. It's not even subtle really.


 Great point about deregatory terms being ingrained in our culture. I'll consider myself schooled and moving forward, if you catch me using those terms I'll owe you a set of grips (biker swear jar).


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

TheDwayyo said:


> So why did you quote my post if you weren't directing your response to me?
> 
> I think it's interesting that this thread was posted in the Women's Lounge. This issue concerns me as a man... Maybe not as much so as it would a women, but I want to be a part of the solution too.
> 
> ...


And, you know, I see it as another sexist double-standard that we women are expected to meet trolls with a smile and gentle words, even as they're coming into our space with the purpose of stirring **** up, when trolls (or even just newbs) in a male-dominated online space are treated much, much more cruelly, and everyone laughs and pats each other on the back.

Our opinions can differ on this; that's fine. It's just the way I see it.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Great post, Formica. Thanks for sharing. 

I do get that to be classified as part of a category and treated as such is not an occurrence, but an ongoing experience in every aspect of daily life. This applies to all types of stereotyping. To try to boil down the effect of such a pervasive phenomenon to its tangible outcomes is unfair.

At the same time though, I have to point out that males and females will always treat each other 'differently.' I think that is unavoidable... But that doesn't mean disrespect needs to be a part of that 'different' treatment.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

littlebird said:


> And, you know, I see it as another sexist double-standard that we women are expected to meet trolls with a smile and gentle words, even as they're coming into our space with the purpose of stirring **** up, when trolls (or even just newbs) in a male-dominated online space are treated much, much more cruelly, and everyone laughs and pats each other on the back.
> 
> Our opinions can differ on this; that's fine. It's just the way I see it.


No that's valid. I don't really care how trolls are treated... I just want to make sure not all men are identified as trolls just for being male.


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## Lucy Juice (Dec 29, 2010)

TheDwayyo said:


> No that's valid. I don't really care how trolls are treated... I just want to make sure not all men are identified as trolls just for being male.


Honestly, I wanted to see this from your perspective, so I reread the entire thread, and I am just not seeing what you're seeing and describing ("the language used towards men"). With the exception of the few trolls who came into this thread, we women have not been vicious by any means. A little curt, perhaps, but I think that's understandable and we've explained why we react that way several times over and I don't think we need to defend ourselves any more. You can accept it or not, but move on.

I have a big race this weekend to prep for, and I see now that I've been getting pulled into an off-topic tone argument (homework: Tone argument - Geek Feminism Wiki) which is not something I want to spend my time and energy on, race prep notwithstanding.

So, with that, I'm out, Dwayyo.

And as far as getting back on topic... I've really enjoyed Amanda's posts on this issue. The one formica posted above is exactly what I was saying in a previous post, as well. It can be hard out here for us. I'm glad we're talking about it now.


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

I don't think we're so far off. I'm not gonna re-read but I think there have been some unfair knee-jerk reactions by women towards men posting in here, despite the men's posts being thoughtful and positive. I also think there have been some totally insensitive (and frankly ignorant) posts by men. 

No need to focus on that though, I'll bow out as well. I think the productive part of this discussion has already occurred. Thanks all for some food for thought for us guys.


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## elainelb (Aug 1, 2014)

Thanks for the Wiki Geek link.
I thought this was relevant (if there is to be a dialogue)...



> Women are less likely than you to be able to assume a calm, disinterested and analytical tone when discussing feminist issues. Do not assume that this makes you more rational or more able to see things clearly than them. It makes you privileged, which will tend to make you less well-informed, because you've never had to be.
> 
> Do not request that women regularly make statements of general approval towards men or specific approval of you in particular, especially not in feminist discussions. (See Feminist cookie).


Elementary mistakes in feminist discussion - Geek Feminism Wiki


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Some of the guys on here need to keep in mind that it's not all about you here in the WL, and that posting your woes here is the most insidious form of sexism. If you think you are the victim of reverse sexism and such, sorry if we don't cry you a river, and don't let the door hit you on the way out. Those allies who have brief supportive comments and don't try turn turn the thread around into their own pity party are welcome here.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

DeeEight said:


> Don't forget years of Marzocchi booth babes and outright hiring porn stars for their catalogs and calendars...


Marzocchi is the first company I thought of in the selling sex category. A part of me always hated running their forks back in the day. I clicked over there this week and was surprised that I could find nary a half-naked woman, although I will say their Team is really weak on female representation.


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## elainelb (Aug 1, 2014)

2011 article replete with photos.



> One of few product manufacturers to use women in ads - the Bomber girls. Can you give us a who/what/when/where?
> The Bomber Girl concept came from the USA. The date was Interbike Sept 1996. MTB people like girls and the bike show was full of guys so we decided to bring in girls (friends) to make espresso. We got some cool outfits and the rest was history. It really took us by storm, Marzocchi management was surprised by the excitement and how legendary the whole Bomber Girls became.


Marzocchi in 2014:



> MarzocchiMTB (Oct 28, 2014 at 9:15)
> The Bomber Girl is a Marzocchi trademark, and we like bikes and girls. Some years ago we decided to change our marketing strategy to focus on emphasizing technology and performance, but that doesn't mean that they won't come back in the future.


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## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

mtbxplorer said:


> Marzocchi is the first company I thought of in the selling sex category. A part of me always hated running their forks back in the day. I clicked over there this week and was surprised that I could find nary a half-naked woman, although I will say their Team is really weak on female representation.


Tahnee Seagrave and Emmeline Ragot don't seem very weak.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ epic, I was talking about the male to female ratio Tenneco Marzocchi Suspension


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Was obvious to me you meant team/sponsored rider ratio for the sexes.. but mind you, who remembers the sexist flack canadian women's DH Pro Michelle Dumaresq got when NOT that it came out she was born a he, but when she began winning races. It never bothered me than she was a post-op transexual since the reassignment surgery happened in 1996 and she didn't begin racing until 2001 after being ASKED to by top pro women riders she met riding around vancouver, I just figured she was winning races because the quality of the canadian women's DH field at the time was rather shitty.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

^^I must have slept through that, but I see there is a film about her...100% Woman, Films On Demand - View Playlist


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## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

DeeEight said:


> Was obvious to me you meant team/sponsored rider ratio for the sexes..


Well duh, the numbers of women that are racing at all are much smaller so it seems self-evident that there would be fewer sponsored riders. At a World Cup downhill, there are about 10 times as many men trying to qualify. At local races, it can be worse than that. One of my friends went "pro" when she was at a race where no pros had entered and she figured she was guaranteed to win prize money. She was right. This is a whole different topic though, probably should stop here, or maybe shouldn't have responded.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

yep, different topic, beaten to death in other WL threads.


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## elainelb (Aug 1, 2014)

thanks for the video link. Ryders Eyewear ad:

https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/transphobic-advert/

and Michelle Dumaresq's reaction

TransGriot: The Day I Died


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Follow up interview with Amanda Batty - worth listening to:

OutspokenCyclist | Show #246 - May 16, 2015


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Probably to be spoken often... "so that's what she sounds like...."


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

This appeared in my Facebook feed:
https://medium.com/human-parts/a-gentlemens-guide-to-rape-culture-7fc86c50dc4c


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Rape Culture is alive and well at the canadian royal military college... I wonder if West Point or Annapolis have similar issues.

Julie Lalonde sees backlash after complaint about Royal Military College cadets - Politics - CBC News


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## elainelb (Aug 1, 2014)

pinkbike contact page...maybe it would be a good idea to send the gentleman's guide to rape culture over to them.

People on Pinkbike.com


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## elainelb (Aug 1, 2014)

I just heard a talk about 'Elonis v. United States'. Applicable as Amanda Batty did receive threats.


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## snowgypsy (Jun 5, 2011)

*A Little Late to the Party: My Thoughts*

More than anything else, as a writer and an avid mtbr, it's becoming impossible to ignore the ever present and devastating culture of silence when it comes to sexism in the sports community. Breaking through that wall of silence is difficult at best and career-suicide at worst.

My thoughts (from your dh hopeful/women's literature professor/writer/woman):

1. Even when discussing the difficulties, injustices, and blatant misogyny within our communities, women can't speak freely - an air of "politeness" needs to be present to be taken seriously. People don't mind feminism or articles that focus on women's issues - as long as they are _quiet_ about it, as long as they say it "nicely," as long as they don't say the word: _feminism_

This is what I see as the most prevalent and devastating form of sexism. The inability to speak ones mind freely - the need to choose one's words carefully...or else. The double standard where a male (rider/writer) can be aggressive, strong, perhaps even a bit of an a****** and still be seen as valuable and still be taken seriously - where a female (rider/writer) walks a finer line. Being too aggressive, too strong, too much of a a***** can have consequences. And many individuals believe those consequences are deserved.

To quote a lovely friend who just doesn't quite get it, _"Look, no one is upset that you said something. Just...you should have said it nicer."_

The need to say it "nicely" or better yet, not say it all, creates the illusion that there isn't a problem and thus, gives our community a pass to ignore these issues and aggressively question/attack those who try to break that illusion.

2. No one likes change. And, as opportunities within this sport for women grow, the sport and the community changes - it has to change. Many people do not like change. Many people, male and female, fight against it at all costs. Their weapon? Insults that demean and tactics that steal one's voice and thus, one's agency. This event is particularly disturbing as PinkBike did just this. Rather than using this event as an opportunity for a serious discussion (and perhaps a genius marketing campaign), they permitted insults to demean and participated in tactics that silenced.

This is not okay. This is the problem.

3. As long as these discussions focus on the fault of writers like Amanda and not on the fault of those who threatened and shamed her, as long as women have a place at the table but no real agency to discuss the issues that matter to us, as long as others, meaning well, attack members of this community for being too passionate, too aggressive, too "b****", we still have issues worth working through.

Women here are trying to discuss, openly, safely, passionately, aggressively, the issues that lie beyond that cloud of silence, the little things that reveal much deeper issues within the culture of our beloved sport. We have to talk about these things. We need to discuss them, explore them, analyze them, shout them - and we have a right to be emotional about them, to be wrong, to be a******, to be, in short, human beings. That's what equality looks like. That is, in short, respect.

The ability to speak up and speak loudly - without fear.
The ability to make a mistake - without fear.

Mountain biking has taught me how to live my life with passion, to pursue those passions, sometimes recklessly, to live without fear. I refuse to let fear dictate my actions and words within my community.

I could write a dissertation on this - I probably, actually will...:thumbsup:

On a positive note, recent article in Mountain Flyer focused on the rad-est women in DH and the passion that drives them (as well as the unique challenges they face). Inspired me. Moved me. I'm a 30 year old woman with clippings from that article hanging on my bathroom mirror. Awesome morning motivation! I wonder how long before the hubbie notices them...


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Snowgypsy, I wish I could rep you more.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Ditto.. also I hear the "Look, no one is upset that you said something. Just...you should have said it nicer." bit a lot told to me about whatever I ranted and offended folks with at the time. Apparently people don't like facts so much as blind submission to their opinions on how things should be done. The fat bike group for this area in particular are rather cliquee... if you didn't buy your bike(s) from a couple shops in particular, apparently your voice and opinion doesn't matter. Also if you try and point out the obvious flaw of publically flaunting the breaking of a land-owner's rules while trying to negotiate access with said same land owner... that that is exactly NOT how I want to be represented as a fat biker. Case in point, in this area the gatineau park is managed by the National Capital Commission. Among their many rules and regulations are no open flames/fires inside their cabins & lodges at any time and no alcohol on their property at any time. So when the exec-members of the local ride club that's trying to get the NCC to allow fat bikes into the park in the winter posted photos of an alcohol-stove with a 2 foot high flare up jet of flame inside one of the cabins, and bottles of alcohol on the tables... I took issue with it and was sworn at/flamed for doing so.


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## snowgypsy (Jun 5, 2011)

formica said:


> Snowgypsy, I wish I could rep you more.


Right back at ya formica!


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

Cool story, bro.


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## OldManBike (Apr 16, 2011)

Great discussion here. It's a frustrating situation but I'm glad to see this conversation taking place in the mountain bike community at least. We don't have to be trapped in 17-year-old-boy-ville forever.

[My original post had my two cents on the whole thing, but on second thought I'm not sure this is the place.]


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