# Bizarre eBay ploy



## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

OK, remember the purple NOS Off Road Toad that was on ebay some time ago:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3678277160&sspagename=STRK:MEWN:IT&rd=1

Well, in a moment of weakness I decided to bid on the frame and ended up winning the auction. Shipping was very fast and I received the frame within a couple of days. At arrival I noticed that the frame looked nothing like any Toads I had seen. And although the paint looked very good, I had the impression it was a repaint and you could still see some signs of chain-suck under the paint. It just looked too good for a 15 year old frame. The frame also didn't have a serial number. I asked the seller some questions about the frame and he came up with a somewhat plausible response. He said the frame was one of 5 custom frames they ordered for their bike-shop team - therefore no serial number - and that the frame was designed to be lighter than the other Off Road Toads. The frames were repainted because the original purple didn't match their jerseys. He also said the person the frame was meant for never made the team, and therefore the frame was never built up, and that Ed Litton built the frame.

As it was still a nice looking frame I didn't think too much of it and started building up the frame. Till a couple of days back I came across a picture of a Brave Racer posted by floibex on this forum and I noticed an uncanning resemblance with the frame I got. The position of the cable-guides on the head-tube were the same, it had the same lugged seat-tube, and the same rear derailleur cable-guide routing through the right brake-boss.



















After some more research on a German MTB website I found more pics of Brave Racers including one that clearly showed it also had the third water-bottle mount under the down-tube. At this point I was pretty much convinced my frame was a repainted, re-stickered Brave Racer. But the story gets more interesting. At the same German MTB site, same thread, there was also a link to a recent ebay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27947&item=3666831839

Note the Cook Bross crank-set on that Brave Racer. Checking out some of the stuff the seller of my frame sold I found out he was also the seller of the same Cook Bros cranks in a recent auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=42319&item=3672693791

This is too much coincidence. Somebody got rid of a perfectly good Cycleart Brave Racer paint-job, painted the frame purple and put some ORT decals on it. Looking at the bid history of the Toad you can also see that vtgmtb, who bought the Brave Racer for US$255 kept bidding on the Toad till the price reached exactly US$255:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws3/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=3678277160

Coincidence?

And the story doesn't end here. The "Toad" I won came with an unusual purple seat binder QR. Till this day I still don't know what kind of QR it is but going through the other stuff vtgmtb bought I found this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22679&item=3672462200

That's my purple seat binder QR on that Fat Chance! And could that Fat Chance be the same as the one my seller sold as "never been built up":

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22679&item=3682349870

Should be easy to find out by checking the serial number. Bizarre. And where does all this leave us at the end of the day? I got a Brave Racer in a luscious purple with Off Road Toad decals. Fortunately the price I paid for the frame wasn't exorbitant although the resell value would probably less than what I paid, if the story behind the frame was known.

Does all this bother me a little bit? Yes. Will I loose any sleep over this? Nope. Will I buy again from this seller? Hell no!

I noticed that another member of this forum bought a "used as a demo" Salsa from the same seller and thought I should bring this under your attention. Draw your own conclusions. Buyer beware.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Wow. What a weird story. Good job on the detective work! Have you talked to the sellers involved? I dont know if I could put up with that.


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## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Wow. What a weird story. Good job on the detective work! Have you talked to the sellers involved? I dont know if I could put up with that.


Well, to the seller's credit he did offer a full refund but shipping back and forth alone would be like $160 - I'm not in the US - and I'm not going to ship anything out without payment first, as you can imagine. We'll see what happens.

BTW, anybody has some Brave Racer decals?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Ya, but, it seems like he should pay for shipping both ways since it was slightly misrepresented.....

Not an unused frame, not an Off-Road Toad.

And then it was done again with that Fat that supposedly hung in the restaurant its whole life.... Repainted, restickered, sold as NOS...

I just hate dishonesty. That would make me mad if I were you. I guess its atleast a Brave frame though. It could be worse.


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## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Ya, but, it seems like he should pay for shipping both ways since it was slightly misrepresented.....
> 
> Not an unused frame, not an Off-Road Toad.
> 
> ...


I agree, the seller should pay for all shipping. But I kind of lost faith in the whole thing. Wouldn't be totally surprised if I never see a cent after shipping the frame back. And then I end up with an even bigger loss.

What bothers me is also why destroy a perfectly good original paint-job just to get a couple more bucks? Those Brave's are pretty rare, only a couple of hundreds made. And I actually liked the original paint-job.

As you said, it could've been worst. That's why I'm not planning to get too stressed about it. I'm seeing this as a lesson. It's so easy to get tricked in this vintage market.


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## rasaldul (Jan 7, 2004)

these methods are not gentleman-like, just imagine these are only old bicycles and most of us are doing this as a hobby. the best way IMO to get a fair deal is just to communicate on forums, even for sellers. real fanatics will also pay a good price, so no one has to do things like that.

check out the bid history on this auction http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7298&item=3670209955 "vtgmtb" also pushed the price for this bike


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7297&item=3672143955

Found this just a few clicks away from your link. Look at the second place bidder. Notice a pattern here? Looks like somebody owes VeloPete some $$.


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## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

check out the bid history on this auction http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7298&item=3670209955 "vtgmtb" also pushed the price for this bike [/QUOTE]

Yep, and the same with the Salsa crconsulting won. Also, the stem that came with the Brave Racer looks pretty much the same as the one on the "NOS" Fat. Just imagine it in yellow.


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## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7297&item=3672143955
> 
> Found this just a few clicks away from your link. Look at the second place bidder. Notice a pattern here? Looks like somebody owes VeloPete some $$.


****, that Salsa used to be an Otis Guy! Talking about schizophrenic bikes!!


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Thanks for this entire thread! In the past I've thought about bidding on items from that seller, but will not do so in the future!!


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

leave negative feedback, and contact ebay and inform them the seller uses shill bidding to drive up the prices.


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## flyingsuperpetis (Jan 16, 2004)

This is the worst. It's a good thing we have our little "consumer-review" board. Intense68, do you have this shmoes address? You may not be in the US, but you have many friends who are...


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*I may have their address*



flyingsuperpetis said:


> This is the worst. It's a good thing we have our little "consumer-review" board. Intense68, do you have this shmoes address? You may not be in the US, but you have many friends who are...


Yea, when I got the bike I already knew there was something fishy, Paint was brand new and the frame was tig'ed. I was almost sure all the early salsas were brazed plus the thing had a salsa head badge. I usually leave positive feedback as soon as I recieve the product (which I did in this case) but kind of regret it now!

Hell I'm still trying to identify the frame I would be happy if it was an Otis Guy.......

still trying to identify it.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

*Calvin, thanks for this thread!*

Amazing story and some killer detective work!

The response from all of us here is a great indication of how close knit our community of vintage mtb lovers is.

It's too bad this comes under negative circumstances, but this seems to be something that is important to us as collectors to be aware of.
Misrepresentation of items sold and shill bidding is obviously not uncommon...but if people are flat out deceiving us collectors...I think if there's anything we can do to help those less informed is for the greater good for us all.

Perhaps keep a list of eBay user handles with suspicious behavior and keep watch.
I guess there is a fine line between keeping buyers and sellers 'informed' and accusing them of deceit and fraud...

We can use this forum as an avenue for clairifications of 'odd' eBay auctions. The collective knowledge here makes us a pretty reliable resourse.

Hell, I almost bid on that Toad!

What I don't understand, is how any money is made in repainting and reselling?
Resprays of any quality are at least $200+
So this guy takes a Brave (worth a fair amount in itself, esp with that paint in good shape), then takes the time and money to respray to a (perhaps) non-factory color, find and use some hard to find TOAD decals and try to sell it as a bike of equal rarity/value from where he started from....seems he would have made $250 if he/she just left well enough alone.


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## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Amazing story and some killer detective work!
> 
> The response from all of us here is a great indication of how close knit our community of vintage mtb lovers is.
> 
> ...


I don't get it neither. Unless they have access to a low-cost source for the paint-jobs. But the Cook Bros cranks that were on the Brave alone sold for $96, and then you have the fork, wheels and the XT gruppo. The Brave Racer was put on eBay before and had no takers at $152.50 for the complete bike.

And if the two Fat's are the same, the used one went for $177.50 while the NOS "never built up" version for $510. That's a profit of more than $300.

Quite a few of the buyers are from outside the US, and maybe less likely to make a fuss. You'll also see that although the seller received 37 feedbacks, he only left feedback for 3 people. Just in case he wants to retaliate? Same as crconsulting I usually leave feedback after I received the item in good shape.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*Yea I was trying to think of what you would gain from this*



Intense68 said:


> I don't get it neither. Unless they have access to a low-cost source for the paint-jobs. But the Cook Bros cranks that were on the Brave alone sold for $96, and then you have the fork, wheels and the XT gruppo. And if the two Fat's are the same, the used one went for $177.50 while the NOS "never built up" version for $510. That's a profit of more than $300.
> 
> Quite a few of the buyers are from outside the US, and maybe less likely to make a fuss. You'll also see that although the seller received 37 feedbacks, he only left feedback for 3 people. Just in case he wants to retaliate?


maybe the bikes were stolen???


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

crconsulting said:


> maybe the bikes were stolen???


Good point.
Not sure there's any way to confirm such a thing...but still, why the trouble to repaint?
If you steal a Brave frame, I would think making $150 on it would be $150 more than they started with...

I guess finding out some 'background' on the seller may shed some light on things?

If he/she used to own an old shop and just ended up with a bunch of misc. frames and decals...has a 'paint booth' in the garage...


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## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Good point.
> Not sure there's any way to confirm such a thing...but still, why the trouble to repaint?
> If you still a Brave frame, I would think making $150 on it would be $150 more than they started with...
> 
> ...


I wouldn't go as far as accusing them of stealing. The original seller of the Brave seems bonafide. What probably happened is that they bought a complete Brave on eBay with nice parts for $255. Then they sold off the parts (cranks, fork, wheels, gruppo) for an X amount of money, and they still got $255 for the frame alone (partly by pushing up the bidding prices). If they didn't misrepresent the items it would actually be totally legit. Just tell people this is a repainted frame/bike (with the wrong decals), and not some ******** NOS story.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Good point.
> Not sure there's any way to confirm such a thing...but still, why the trouble to repaint?
> If you still a Brave frame, I would think making $150 on it would be $150 more than they started with...
> 
> ...


That was my first thought also, though it's purely speculation . .. .perhaps they were stolen. Clearly a lot of nice bikes get lifted each year. Ebay sure would be an easy way to unload them if in fact they were stolen.

This guy might know some one who paints them or maybe even paints bikes himself. A single color paint job isn't too hard if you've had some painting experience.

It all just doesn't seem to add up. Why would anyone try to repaint a bike with a beautiful paint job and then sticker it something else. Maybe repaint it and resticker it correctly or just repaint and no stickers, but to repaint and them misrepresent seems very fishy. Also the fact the price of numerous auctions was getting pushed by the same bidder seems suspect. Where's this guy from. It would be interesting to contact the local authorities and local colleges in his area to see see if any bikes with this serial number have disappeared. Hopefully I'm wrong and this is all just a missunderstanding but who knows the truth without looking closely?

-mtnwing


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> Yea, when I got the bike I already knew there was something fishy, Paint was brand new and the frame was tig'ed. I was almost sure all the early salsas were brazed plus the thing had a salsa head badge. I usually leave positive feedback as soon as I recieve the product (which I did in this case) but kind of regret it now!
> 
> Hell I'm still trying to identify the frame I would be happy if it was an Otis Guy.......
> 
> still trying to identify it.


crconsulting - e-mail me with the serial number and any photos - seat lug area, dropout, cable stops, brake posts etc. I might be able to help you id it as an old Salsa - or not. As far as I'm aware all Salsa customs were fillet brazed. All early A La Cartes were also fillet brazed up until about 90/91 when the ALC was brought back as a tig bike.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*Thanks SS Mike!!*



ssmike said:


> crconsulting - e-mail me with the serial number and any photos - seat lug area, dropout, cable stops, brake posts etc. I might be able to help you id it as an old Salsa - or not. As far as I'm aware all Salsa customs were fillet brazed. All early A La Cartes were also fillet brazed up until about 90/91 when the ALC was brought back as a tig bike.


I dont think its a Salsa but it definatley has a salsa stem and some sort of fillet brazed fork with roller cams all around odd.....

Hey I'd be happy if it was an Otis!! maybe we can find out what velopete recieved from these guys.

I'll get some pics together tonite. I was going to trade it to someone but as soon as I became suspect I had to pull out of the deal which made me look like an ass (well I kind of look like that anyways 

thanks

CR


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*Lets play name that frame!!*



ssmike said:


> crconsulting - e-mail me with the serial number and any photos - seat lug area, dropout, cable stops, brake posts etc. I might be able to help you id it as an old Salsa - or not. As far as I'm aware all Salsa customs were fillet brazed. All early A La Cartes were also fillet brazed up until about 90/91 when the ALC was brought back as a tig bike.


Can anyone identify the manufacturer of this frame?


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*More Pics*



crconsulting said:


> Can anyone identify the manufacturer of this frame?


Serial #P7226917


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo*



crconsulting said:


> Serial #P7226917


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7297&item=3667864813#ebayphotohosting

any one have an old fisher hoo koo e koo laying around.

the Fork and Stem actually look genuine Salsa though.

Pretty pathetic, lets evaluate why deception doesn't pay:

Unpack and strip frame of parts: 20 minutes
Strip old paint and decals: 35 minutes
mix and shoot paint on frame and forks: 1 hour (with cleanup of spray guns)
apply decals and re assemble parts: 35 minutes (gotta wait for the paint to dry)
take pics and advertise on ebay: 25 minutes
field questions from multiple buyers: 20 minutes (don't forget the shilling!)
Pack (very well I might add) and tape up: 30 minutes 
drive to post office or UPS and print label: 30 minutes (round trip)

- about 4.25 hours of work
- the 116$ for the fisher (50.00 shipping and handling)
- the 125$ in parts on bike (New durace BB and headset plus real fillet brazed salsa stem and fork, randoneer bars, shifters, levers etc...)
- Paint & materials 35.00 (reducer, thinner ,stripper, paint 2 colors, tape, etc....).
- Decals and headbadge 20.00 w/shipping

$309.00 (price paid for bike) - $296.00 (parts and supply's) = $13.00 divided by 4.25 hours = for a whopping total of $3.05 per hour (No Benefits of course, as there is no Scammers Union Local 86) Far below minimum wage.....

he (or she) would make more money by learning the line
"would you like that super sized"

sorry to all my Euro friends who wont get that.


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## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7297&item=3667864813#ebayphotohosting
> 
> any one have an old fisher hoo koo e koo laying around.
> 
> ...


Wow, you found out the answer to the riddle quite fast. How did you do that?

Great cost/benefit analysis of the crime too! Hopefully it is not giving certain people some ideas......


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## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7297&item=3667864813#ebayphotohosting
> 
> any one have an old fisher hoo koo e koo laying around.
> 
> ...


And does this mean that velopete's "Otis Guy" could be an Hoo Koo E Koo as well?


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

this is a sickening story. buyer beware indeed...

ta

scant


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*Hopefully*



Intense68 said:


> Wow, you found out the answer to the riddle quite fast. How did you do that?
> 
> Great cost/benefit analysis of the crime too! Hopefully it is not giving certain people some ideas......


the idea they'll get is that at $3.05 per hour, its a waste of time..........


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> Serial #P7226917


Is that s/n really stamped on what looks to be the down tube? I'll fire off your pictures and see if I can get an answer today. But no, don't look like no Salsa to me. The vent holes in the c/s near the bb shell don't look right, amont other things.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*yea thats the number*



ssmike said:


> Is that s/n really stamped on what looks to be the down tube? I'll fire off your pictures and see if I can get an answer today. But no, don't look like no Salsa to me. The vent holes in the c/s near the bb shell don't look right, amont other things.


I've sent him or her an email to get an explanation......


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## rasaldul (Jan 7, 2004)

ok guys, how about this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3673682795
the winning bidder is as far as i know from berlin (germany), but no feedback left from buyer nor seller


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## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

rasaldul said:


> ok guys, how about this? https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3673682795
> the winning bidder is as far as i know from berlin (germany), but no feedback left from buyer nor seller


Bizarre indeed! The seller(s) must have a large stock of similar frames that get a second life as Salsas, Otis Guys, and Steve Potts. The bid history shows the usual suspects. Looks like I opened a can of worms....

Also noticed that there were other bidders from Germany in that auction, including some I know quite well. Lucky for them they didn't get burnt. The guy who won the Fat Chance is also from Germany. Since the auction ended recently the frame could still be on it's way. Would be a good idea to check the serial number on arrival.

BTW, I thought that fork on the Potts looked familiar....



















The same one that was on the Brave-that-became-anOff-Road-Toad before?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Well, the Potts isnt a Hoo Koo E Koo. Its something a bit nicer. It might even be the real thing or possibly a Ritchey. That is unless those nice fillets were bondoed on there and then sanded prior to sending it to the painter. I wouldnt put it past this guy.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Actually it might be a Teesdale-made Fisher looking at that seat tube/seat stay/top tube junction with that collar. Does Potts do those? I wouldnt think so. Ritchey doesnt use those on his fillet brazed bikes, atleast that Ive seen.


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## rasaldul (Jan 7, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Actually it might be a Teesdale-made Fisher looking at that seat tube/seat stay/top tube junction with that collar. Does Potts do those? I wouldnt think so. Ritchey doesnt use those on his fillet brazed bikes, atleast that Ive seen.


i think the potts is an original, look at the lug at the seat collar and the cable stops at the down tube on the steve potts which was for sale a bit earlier on ebay.


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## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

rasaldul said:


> ok guys, how about this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3673682795
> the winning bidder is as far as i know from berlin (germany), but no feedback left from buyer nor seller


This one is also interesting. It's almost funny if it wasn't so sad.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7298&item=3670209955

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22681&item=3679070637

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22681&item=3681189861

Vintage Sablieri or Gilles Bethoud? And the usual suspects in the bid history. Whatever it was people paid good money for it.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> Can anyone identify the manufacturer of this frame?


crconsulting - got an inquiry into your frame sent off. Here are some pictures of my a la carte (circa '85) that shows Ross's handi-work with the torch. Note the S himano dropout. Also check out the way he brazed the dropouts into the fork blade, chain stay and seat stay. He sucked the brass up into the tube forming a nice little concave feature.

Ross's brazing was also very minimalist - just enough for the area as on my fork picture.

Other things - serial number on the d/t? All that I every saw - and I put together quite a few - were on the bb shell. My seat cluster is different (I machined the clamp to accept a campy style binder).

Also, that doesn't look like a Salsa stem. I don't remember any with rollers and a clamp on style - could be an Ibis. But Salsa didn't use a bolt/nut to fix the roller. The roller was fixed by a stainless pin that was a slight press fit into the tabs and then held in place with a circlip on the inside between one of the tabs and the roller.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Couple more pictures for reference. Also my Salsa s/n starts wtih "SM"


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*Familiar Color!!*



rasaldul said:


> ok guys, how about this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3673682795
> the winning bidder is as far as i know from berlin (germany), but no feedback left from buyer nor seller


There must have been a "special" on green paint I'll have to adjust my formula!! maybe now they're up to 3.50 an hour LOL


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> There must have been a "special" on green paint I'll have to adjust my formula!! maybe now they're up to 3.50 an hour LOL


crconsulting - do you have the seller's e-mail address? I e-mailed Ross about your frame. He'd like to let this guy know exactly how he feels as well as registering a complaint with e-bay on the counterfeit Salsa frame. For future reference to anyone buying a Ross Shafer Salsa, here's some tips.

Virtually all Petaluma Salsas have a serial number stamped on the BB shell that starts with SM (Salsa Moto) or SR (Salsa Road). The first 15 Salsa frames did not get serial numbers.

After checking out the photos Ross says that they never built any tig-welded mountain frames without gussets, nor with that seat cluster. The stem could be a Salsa that they made for the Fisher team.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*I dont think it's a Potts*



rasaldul said:


> i think the potts is an original, look at the lug at the seat collar and the cable stops at the down tube on the steve potts which was for sale a bit earlier on ebay.


The seat collar is a giveaway, look at the difference where the seat tube meets the collar. that area looks more like my "Salsa" aka Fisher. I saw a yellow fillet brazed fisher sell on ebay a few months back, I bet that was it. The fork & Stem on my "Salsa" probably came off this bike. I've been trying to find pics of older Hoo Koo E Koo's I'm not too sure thats what it is yet but have my suspicions......


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

rasaldul said:


> ok guys, how about this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3673682795
> the winning bidder is as far as i know from berlin (germany), but no feedback left from buyer nor seller


That "Potts" also doesn't look like a Potts. The seat cluster is wrong. The bottom bracket is wrong - it looks like the bearings are held in place w/ circlips. Steve always pressed his bearings in flush to the outer shell.

Again, it looks like a Fisher frame - same style seat cluster as crconsulting's "Salsa" and Fisher frames used circlips to hold the BB bearings in place.

Not sure about the Hoo-Koo-E-Koo as I don't remember them being sold with pressed in bottom brackets. The HKEKs I assembled in the 80s had threaded bb shells. Maybe something like a Montare.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*Thats exactly what it is!!!*



Fillet-brazed said:


> Actually it might be a Teesdale-made Fisher looking at that seat tube/seat stay/top tube junction with that collar. Does Potts do those? I wouldnt think so. Ritchey doesnt use those on his fillet brazed bikes, atleast that Ive seen.


I saw a yellow one go on sale a month or two ago. I bet this guy bought it and stuck the forks on the "Salsa" aka Fisher I bought. What a lot of work for such little payoff.
and those TT Fishers were nice bikes this guy just ruined it. I bet the guy that has the "Potts" aka fisher wants my forks!

Anyone know him or her???


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*[email protected]*



ssmike said:


> crconsulting - do you have the seller's e-mail address? I e-mailed Ross about your frame. He'd like to let this guy know exactly how he feels as well as registering a complaint with e-bay on the counterfeit Salsa frame. For future reference to anyone buying a Ross Shafer Salsa, here's some tips.
> 
> Virtually all Petaluma Salsas have a serial number stamped on the BB shell that starts with SM (Salsa Moto) or SR (Salsa Road). The first 15 Salsa frames did not get serial numbers.
> 
> After checking out the photos Ross says that they never built any tig-welded mountain frames without gussets, nor with that seat cluster. The stem could be a Salsa that they made for the Fisher team.


Yahoo address of course ....... The Fisher Team is the call, I saw a TT serial numbered one go on sale on ebay a few months ago. The guy with the "Pott's" is going to be bummed, I have his fork and stem 

I will contact ebay and authorities to get more info on them, They should be fairly easy to track down. One thing about the internet you leave tons of clues around. People dont understand if your going to do something unscroupulous your almost better off going to rob a bank at gunpoint you'll leave less of a paper trail......


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*Found the team Fisher*



ssmike said:


> crconsulting - do you have the seller's e-mail address? I e-mailed Ross about your frame. He'd like to let this guy know exactly how he feels as well as registering a complaint with e-bay on the counterfeit Salsa frame. For future reference to anyone buying a Ross Shafer Salsa, here's some tips.
> 
> Virtually all Petaluma Salsas have a serial number stamped on the BB shell that starts with SM (Salsa Moto) or SR (Salsa Road). The first 15 Salsa frames did not get serial numbers.
> 
> After checking out the photos Ross says that they never built any tig-welded mountain frames without gussets, nor with that seat cluster. The stem could be a Salsa that they made for the Fisher team.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3671033833

looks like a different bike Unrelated to this whole thing though but I think the "potts" is an older version of this bike


----------



## kb11 (Mar 29, 2004)

Thanks for all the info. I too was going to bid on these items. I really wanted that Salsa. I suggest the winners submit a complaint to Ebay and to IFCC, Internet Fraud Complaint Center at: http://www.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp

If the USPS was involved ( sending money or recieving goods throught the mail) then you can also file a complaint here:
https://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/MailFraudComplaint.htm

At least this guy would know there are people who know what he's are up to and would prevent him from continueing to sell these bogus bikes.


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*No, I think*



Intense68 said:


> ****, that Salsa used to be an Otis Guy! Talking about schizophrenic bikes!!


It used to be a Fisher also!!!

looks like the same frame as my "Salsa"


----------



## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

*One of the more disturbing things is both selling ebay accounts..*

have good feed back.

With this many fishy auctions, you would think someone would have caught the seller at the game by now.


----------



## flyingsuperpetis (Jan 16, 2004)

Hey Intense, CRC, all,
Say, if you do come across that address, let me know. I'm guessing its a shop of some sort, and I'd certainly be up for a drive to see what kind of shop it is, stop in and have a chat. I travel a lot, and it'd be worth going out of my way to figure this one out.

If it's an actual bike shop, I'd really like to know before getting roped into doing any business with them.

As it is, next time I go to Chicago I've gotta bring the vise to collect on an ebay deal gone south. (not you Tucker!) Us little guys can be plenty persuasive when properly motivated.


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

ssmike said:


> That "Potts" also doesn't look like a Potts. The seat cluster is wrong. The bottom bracket is wrong - it looks like the bearings are held in place w/ circlips. Steve always pressed his bearings in flush to the outer shell.
> 
> Again, it looks like a Fisher frame - same style seat cluster as crconsulting's "Salsa" and Fisher frames used circlips to hold the BB bearings in place.
> 
> Not sure about the Hoo-Koo-E-Koo as I don't remember them being sold with pressed in bottom brackets. The HKEKs I assembled in the 80s had threaded bb shells. Maybe something like a Montare.


Ya and the HKEKs werent fillet brazed. I dont think the Montares were either. I think just the Mt. Tams and the Teams were the only Fisher models that were fillet brazed.

Heres an old FIsher just after Gary and Ritchey split apart, this one looks a lot like it: http://www.oldmountainbikes.com/cgi-bin/bikes.cgi?bike=SC11

This one is probably one of the first few Fishers made by Tom Teesdale. Looks very similar, fillet brazed with that same seat collar. Laffeaux, did you sell this by chance?


----------



## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> This one is probably one of the first few Fishers made by Tom Teesdale. Looks very similar, fillet brazed with that same seat collar. Laffeaux, did you sell this by chance?


I actually still have it and still ride it. It's actually one of the last frames made by Tom Ritchey prior to the split with Fisher. Other than the Fisher decal it looks identical to Ritcheys of that era. I don't know what the Teesdale Fishers look like

It rides nice by the way..


----------



## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

flyingsuperpetis said:


> Hey Intense, CRC, all,
> Say, if you do come across that address, let me know. I'm guessing its a shop of some sort, and I'd certainly be up for a drive to see what kind of shop it is, stop in and have a chat. I travel a lot, and it'd be worth going out of my way to figure this one out.
> 
> If it's an actual bike shop, I'd really like to know before getting roped into doing any business with them.
> ...


Thanks for the support fsp. Looks like I'm not even duped as bad as some others but I'm still pissed. All I know is that the location of kimberly stitess auctions were stated as located in Cincinnati Ohio and vtgmtb's auction's as located in Ohio but also as Buckeye Country (wherever that is). I wouldn't be surprised if these are the same person, or at least the same group of people.

Both sellers still have a 100% positive feedback record and as of today vtgmtb received 2 more positive feedbacks.....


----------



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

laffeaux said:


> I actually still have it and still ride it. It's actually one of the last frames made by Tom Ritchey prior to the split with Fisher. Other than the Fisher decal it looks identical to Ritcheys of that era. I don't know what the Teesdale Fishers look like
> 
> It rides nice by the way..


Oops. Ya youre right. Tom did use that type of collar back then. My Commando is like that and also has a bb that is held in place with circlips. My other old Ritcheys are like the ones shown below with the fake lug thing and then my oldest (the blue one) looks like that as well but no fake lug on the bottom edge. Lots of variations.

Maybe its a Commando?

For some reason I was thinking yours was made after Tom and Gary split up....


----------



## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

CraigH said:


> have good feed back.
> 
> With this many fishy auctions, you would think someone would have caught the seller at the game by now.


Well, the thread was started less than 48 hours ago. And probably like many other people I leave feedback right after the item(s) are received in good shape, so I already blew my ammunition.

I guess the heart of the matter is that although we all love bikes and some of you are very knowledgeable, there are only a handful of people who really know their stuff. Who has really seen a Steve Potts, Otis Guy, Toad, Brave etc. in the flesh? And somewhere maybe we want to believe we got the real thing rather than admitting to been framed (no pun intended).

If I didn't run into that Brave Racer pic that floibex posted a couple of days back this could've gone on for a very long time. And who knows what other dubious things are going on.

For what it's worth, the people behind the ploy are quite sophisticated. Possibly bike-enthusiasts themselves and maybe even frequenting this forum. They knew exactly which buttons to push and which stories to tell. Not to mention their knowledge about period parts, bike models, and the ability to come up with some really fancy stickers.

If it wasn't that people got duped this could've actually been quite an amusing story.


----------



## justone (Jan 19, 2004)

Intense68 said:


> Well, the thread was started less than 48 hours ago. And probably like many other people I leave feedback right after the item(s) are received in good shape, so I already blew my ammunition.
> 
> I guess the heart of the matter is that although we all love bikes and some of you are very knowledgeable, there are only a handful of people who really know their stuff. Who has really seen a Steve Potts, Otis Guy, Toad, Brave etc. in the flesh? And somewhere maybe we want to believe we got the real thing rather than admitting to been framed (no pun intended).
> 
> ...


 I don't follow it much anymore but the same thing was going on in the ebay world of vintage saxophones a few years back. Misrepresentations and outright lies. Shill bidders, the same horns showing up in different auctions, all the right buzz words in the descriptions etc. Just like in this case, some dilligent detective work turns up loads of evidence. In many cases the dealings were in thousands of dollars, not hundreds like here.
You really have to know your stuff.


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

Intense68 said:


> Well, the thread was started less than 48 hours ago. And probably like many other people I leave feedback right after the item(s) are received in good shape, so I already blew my ammunition.


Yea, I did one better than that, I opened the box quickly looked inside I saw the brazed fork and stem and closed the box back up. leaving positive feedback of course. I originally bought the bike for some of the parts on it and was going to trade or resell the frame as it was to big for me. Several weeks later I finally took the thing out of the box and saw the frame was tig welded (pretty crappy at that) then things went south from there. I had someone who wanted to trade another frame for it and then had to back out of the deal. The bid shilling I didn't catch at all (nice going Intense68!!) 
It never came to mind that someone would go thru all that trouble for less than 300.00 Thousands of $$$$ I can understand........


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*By the way*



Intense68 said:


> Possibly bike-enthusiasts themselves and maybe even frequenting this forum. They knew exactly which buttons to push and which stories to tell. Not to mention their knowledge about period parts, bike models, and the ability to come up with some really fancy stickers.


Oh, I guarantee this person frequents this forum, no question about it......


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*Did you recieve your money back?*



Intense68 said:


> Well, to the seller's credit he did offer a full refund but shipping back and forth alone would be like $160 - I'm not in the US - and I'm not going to ship anything out without payment first, as you can imagine. We'll see what happens.
> 
> BTW, anybody has some Brave Racer decals?


Kim (or whoever) returned my email offering a refund and said she was innocent in all this and was selling the frame for somenone else, also gave me his name, problem is the person is in Wisconsin!! Doesn't add up (they didn't explain the bid shilling either who's ebay identity is also based in Ohio) but then told me it would be easier to send a money order instead of refunding my paypal account. That's a red flag also! I figure its a stalling tecnique and will keep moving forward with legal avenues. If he/she come thru with the refund I'll let you know, but at this point haven't received anything.

How about you?


----------



## floibex (Feb 7, 2004)

... as there had been toads with standard dropouts I was first unsure if "this toad", which look very very very similar to my brave racer, is a fake or not. but a search in my german forum brings up the following mba test which shows a early toad (standard dropouts but different cable routing).


























as your toad is now very brave, be proud of it  as far as i know there are only 35 made, and even cycleart should be alive for a "original" paint job.

brave's without a frame number are reported to be made by grove.

ciao
flo


----------



## flyingsuperpetis (Jan 16, 2004)

Huh! You don't say... Wi, eh? Well, that is something! My interest is piqued, to say the least. The mtb community is a pretty small, close-knit group here. It won't be hard to nail the culprit down at all, if she's not blowing smoke...


----------



## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> My other old Ritcheys are like the ones shown below with the fake lug thing and then my oldest (the blue one) looks like that as well but no fake lug on the bottom edge. Lots of variations.
> 
> For some reason I was thinking yours was made after Tom and Gary split up....


Hmmm... I never noticed that your blue one did not have the lug. All of mine have that feature, although the detail and shape varries.

I acutally have a letter signed by Gary saying that the Fisher Competition was made by Tom Ritchey. The original owner purchased the bike used from Gary in late '84. When he sold me the bike he included the sales receipt, and a letter from Gary saying that it was made by Tom and had been ridden down Repack by Gary. Pretty cool.


----------



## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> Kim (or whoever) returned my email offering a refund and said she was innocent in all this and was selling the frame for somenone else, also gave me his name, problem is the person is in Wisconsin!! Doesn't add up (they didn't explain the bid shilling either who's ebay identity is also based in Ohio) but then told me it would be easier to send a money order instead of refunding my paypal account. That's a red flag also! I figure its a stalling tecnique and will keep moving forward with legal avenues. If he/she come thru with the refund I'll let you know, but at this point haven't received anything.
> 
> How about you?


If you're in the US it's probably easier because the shipping fees are more manageable. Did Kim offer a full refund if you send the frame back? I would be very reluctant to ship anything back without the refund first. And I got the feeling payment may not be forthcoming.


----------



## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

floibex said:


> ...
> as your toad is now very brave, be proud of it  as far as i know there are only 35 made, and even cycleart should be alive for a "original" paint job.
> 
> brave's without a frame number are reported to be made by grove.
> ...


That's how I think about it as well, floibex. The frame would make an interesting conversation piece. If the refund doesn't come through I may keep it and build it up to see how the brave little toad rides after all it went through. The size fits me perfectly.

Thanks for the Cyclart link also, although it looks like a new paintjob from these guys would be more expensive than the frame itself! Bizarre, considering there used to be an Cyclart paint-job under that purple....


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*Your instincts are correct......*



Intense68 said:


> If you're in the US it's probably easier because the shipping fees are more manageable. Did Kim offer a full refund if you send the frame back? I would be very reluctant to ship anything back without the refund first. And I got the feeling payment may not be forthcoming.


I get the same feeling. The story has now changed for me, they're willing just to send back the money! Oh but not thru paypal, money order is "easier". Yea right, how's that work? oh, btw havent heard anything since I rejected the MO thing......

The key here is to stop this person from doing this again via a new set of ebay id's. I now have a lead on this person I dont think its a woman. I Also have some friends in the Ohio area 

I have to say, I do a lot of ebay trades 99.9 % of the people I deal with are honest (excluding used car parts, thats been a disaster! I just don't buy them anymore. But that's not for this forum.) I wont even hesitate to buy items there again in fact I just bought some drop bars (sorry Nate!!)

anyone know the guy that bought the "potts" shoot me an email.....

Do you still have the shipping label? Was it sent thru US postal Service? Mine was sent UPS. My neighbor is an inpector for the US postal service with lots of extra time.....


----------



## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> I get the same feeling. The story has now changed for me, they're willing just to send back the money! Oh but not thru paypal, money order is "easier". Yea right, how's that work? oh, btw havent heard anything since I rejected the MO thing......
> 
> The key here is to stop this person from doing this again via a new set of ebay id's. I now have a lead on this person I dont think its a woman. I Also have some friends in the Ohio area
> 
> ...


I have to say that all this has left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth and I have become less enthused about this hobby than before. I'm sure a lot of people are inspecting their vintage possessions right now to check for signs of fraude. It shouldn't be like this.

Anyway, I threw out the bike box already but it was shipped by USPS. If you ever find out who the person/people are behind this let me know.


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*I'm working on it right now....*



Intense68 said:


> I have to say that all this has left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth and I have become less enthused about this hobby than before. I'm sure a lot of people are inspecting their vintage possessions right now to check for signs of fraude. It shouldn't be like this.
> 
> Anyway, I threw out the bike box already but it was shipped by USPS. If you ever find out who the person/people are behind this let me know.


They're in Cincinnati Ohio using Level 3 Net as their dial up ISP

too bad about the bike box  Not a problem though, I have my ways.....

Don't let it bother you too much I dont think there are that many fake bikes out there. ebay is an easy target because your dealing with pictures and trusting peoples honesty. But if you look at the payout for the guy who did this, He would have made much more money in the long run by being an honest dealer and building a stellar reputation. Look at all the effort that went into this scheme. Man all that effort for roughly $3.00 per hour!!

The good news is you exposed this person!!! Good job!!! I might have let him slide but now after seeing all the good people affected (You, Velo Pete and others ) I think I'll put a little work into it. Plus anybody that puts a Potts head badge on a Fisher needs to be cained singapore style immediatley


----------



## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> Don't let it bother you too much I dont think there are that many fake bikes out there.


I agree. I doubt very seriously that fake bikes are a large issue. This in an oddity.

The special abilty that UPS and FedEx have to smash bikes into little pieces then not reimburse you, is a far bigger issue than fake bikes. I've lost much more money from that than anything else on eBay.


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## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*two more though*



laffeaux said:


> I agree. I doubt very seriously that fake bikes are a large issue. This in an oddity


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22681&item=3679070637

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22681&item=3681189861

maybe a new trend. road bikes.

story on these sounds familiar eh....

oh look at the feedback thank you very much (for hosing me)

yeaaaaaaaa


----------



## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22681&item=3679070637
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22681&item=3681189861
> 
> ...


You missed this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7298&item=3670209955


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## SS Jerry (Dec 22, 2003)

*Ebay feedback for this problem...*

What someone could do ......is create basically a throw away account for Ebay and win every auction this person puts out that looks too fishey. Then just leave negative feedback for each auction. If 3 people did this and rotated the winning of auctions, he would have a nice steady stream of negatives.

The winners would not actually pay for the auctions. This would force his hand and he would either have to submit a non paying bidder report to ebay, which they would investigate or he would have to eat the fees. He can submit non paying bidder notices for each auction that goes bogus and after 3 of these for each of the throw away accounts , the throw away account would be terminated from ebay bidding, hence, the use of a throw away account and not your good account.

Ebay does not act very fast and hestitates on fraud cases. The antique fishing lure hobby is full of people who re-paint antique lures and sell them off as pristine, NOS. It has put a major hurt on that hobby. Even a touch up can knock off 100's if not 1000's of dollars from a 1900's glass eyed wooden bass plug.The same type of corruption just about did in the antique duck decoy market several years ago.

Just another way to get even, or put someone out of business that needs to be out of the business of ripping off people.

SS Jerry


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## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> They're in Cincinnati Ohio using Level 3 Net as their dial up ISP
> 
> too bad about the bike box  Not a problem though, I have my ways.....
> 
> ...


I have to say that all these explicit close-up pics of fillet-brazed Potts', Ritchey's, and Salsa's (the real ones) make me seriously wanting some of that action....

Sigh, will I ever be cured?


----------



## zoepop4 (Jun 24, 2004)

*96' Bontrage Race Lite*

You seem like you might be able to help me. I have a '96 Race Lite, do you have the specs for the BB diameter? Or the rest of the bike?


----------



## floibex (Feb 7, 2004)

zoepop4 said:


> You seem like you might be able to help me. I have a '96 Race Lite, do you have the specs for the BB diameter? Or the rest of the bike?


 ... bontrager specs you will find here, bb = bsa 68mm

ciao
flo


----------



## zoepop4 (Jun 24, 2004)

floibex said:


> ... bontrager specs you will find here, bb = bsa 68mm
> 
> ciao
> flo


Thanks! I can't find the 68 mm on that table or in the site. I'm probably just slow. I am also looking for forks that will fit the 1" steerer tube. There are some suspension forks out there, but hard to find and I would be happy with a good rigid. Ideas?


----------



## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Check the Shock board, there is a 1" fork thread there right now.


----------



## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Intense68 said:


> You missed this one:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7298&item=3670209955


Hmmm..... Luckily they seem to be form the same (one or two) bad eggs: kimberlystites and vtgmtb. Hopefully catching this early (relatively) and putting a stop ot it, will nip it in the bud. Let's hope.

As has been several times before, great detective work!!!!


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*Games Up!!! I Have the owners identity*



Intense68 said:


> I have to say that all this has left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth and I have become less enthused about this hobby than before. I'm sure a lot of people are inspecting their vintage possessions right now to check for signs of fraude. It shouldn't be like this.
> 
> Anyway, I threw out the bike box already but it was shipped by USPS. If you ever find out who the person/people are behind this let me know.


Like I said its easier to rob a bank at gunpoint than to scam on the net......

If you want his personal info let me know I'm not going to post it until I'm 100% sure

I'll give out a hint though... His name isn't Kim (gee what a surprise) its Brian (this could be wrong too but the address is right on the money). and he lives in Cincinnati, Ohio I have his address and working on phone number so we can give him a personal call 

Maybe you guys in Europe can call him in the middle of the night to give him love

If you bought a bike or been shilled and can provide me with your ebay ID ill send you his addresss thru that ebay ID.

Scamming never pays.......


----------



## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> I have his address and working on phone number so we can give him a personal call


If you have his address use this site to get his number:

http://www.reversephonedirectory.com/


----------



## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

crconsulting said:


> I'll give out a hint though... His name isn't Kim (gee what a surprise) its Brian (this could be wrong too but the address is right on the money). and he lives in Cincinnati, Ohio I have his address and working on phone number so we can give him a personal call


I am from Cincinnati, Ohio, and know a lot of people in the cycling community there. If you find out what his last name and address are, PM me. I'd be interested to know if I am familiar with the person pulling this BS.


----------



## crconsulting (Apr 11, 2004)

*You have mail.....*



uphiller said:


> I am from Cincinnati, Ohio, and know a lot of people in the cycling community there. If you find out what his last name and address are, PM me. I'd be interested to know if I am familiar with the person pulling this BS.


 How is the Buckeye State


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

*Hey intense68....*

You know Calvin...those Westpine brakes you're bidding on look like repainted XTII U-brakes!


----------



## flyingsuperpetis (Jan 16, 2004)

*Ach! Ya got me!*



Rumpfy said:


> You know Calvin...those Westpine brakes you're bidding on look like repainted XTII U-brakes!


AH CRAP. Man Eric, Karma's a B****!!! Remember how I blew your cover on that toadie? Same goes for the westpine! Hehehe, no sweat, I have more pressing auctions, like like a certain fork...

Oh man, intense68, that's you there, eh? Well, just as well, I'd hate to find I'd swiped those out from under ya. If I see one of you guys, (and recognize ya) I back off. ...okay Shayne, with our one glaring exception here.


----------



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

flyingsuperpetis said:


> AH CRAP. Man Eric, Karma's a B****!!! Remember how I blew your cover on that toadie? Same goes for the westpine! Hehehe, no sweat, I have more pressing auctions, like like a certain fork...
> 
> Oh man, intense68, that's you there, eh? Well, just as well, I'd hate to find I'd swiped those out from under ya. If I see one of you guys, (and recognize ya) I back off. ...okay Shayne, with our one glaring exception here.


I guess that means my karma is good...the toad _did_ end up being a Brave...

We should keep a list of all our eBay and MTBR handles so that we don't snipe stuff from each other!


----------



## victorthewombat (Jan 12, 2004)

*identifying the Potts should be easy boyz...*



rasaldul said:


> i think the potts is an original, look at the lug at the seat collar and the cable stops at the down tube on the steve potts which was for sale a bit earlier on ebay.


if it has parallel 70 or 71 head and seat tube angles, its a dead give away. Steve and Mark built them that cuz' that is the way they liked them.

Also, if the frame is that old, seat collars tells me its 85, 86, 87...aint no way it's going to have suntour studs on it. In that period Steve, Charlie and Mark hand produces all the roller cam parts. Thus, if the bike uses 6mm roller cam mounting studs ITS A FAKE.

Victorthewombat


----------



## islander (Jan 21, 2004)

To avoid this in the future guys, look at the downtube of the Toad you're bidding on - you should have a pic that shows it's dramatically ovalized. Not many bikes of the day had same tubeset.


----------



## victorthewombat (Jan 12, 2004)

*Identifying the Potts should be easy*

All;

Especially in 86 - 87 Steve and Mark were using Cunningham 3/16" studs to mount the WTB rollercams. Because of the lugged seat tube, I highly suspect the frame pictured is of that vintage. Another check would be to look in the fork steerer tube to see whether or not the steel insert was placed - a dead reckoning that the fork was built by Steve, versus Otis Guy or Scott Nicol.

Almost all Potts built after 88 had meteric brake mounting studs, because of the sleeve that was used to control the brake post outer diameter.


----------



## Coolhand (Jan 15, 2004)

Has anyone reported them to Ebay as it seems absurd to let them keep committing fruad while you know about it. What did Ebay say if you reported it?


----------



## flyingsuperpetis (Jan 16, 2004)

I've passed this thread on to most of the people that have bid on the auctions, & especially won items from those two id's, and most have been very interested to know. Not actually being involved in an auction of thers, it might be hard for me to make a case against em to ebay. Anyone?


----------



## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> I guess that means my karma is good...the toad _did_ end up being a Brave...
> 
> We should keep a list of all our eBay and MTBR handles so that we don't snipe stuff from each other!


Just came back from a holiday to find out I missed out on the Westpines. Oh well, at least it went for a good price, and not $0.50 higher than my last bid, what's usual the case.


----------



## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

Intense68 said:


> Just came back from a holiday to find out I missed out on the Westpines. Oh well, at least it went for a good price, and not $0.50 higher than my last bid, what's usual the case.


What was the final price, anyways?


----------



## Intense68 (Jan 15, 2004)

uphiller said:


> What was the final price, anyways?


$90.99


----------



## lifelover (Jan 23, 2004)

*New Ebay ID*

I see that both of these ebay ID's have no items for sale. Does anyone know if he is using a new name.

I (my ebay alter ego) would love to be the winning bidder on a few of his items, convince him to send them COD and than stiff him so that he eats the shipping cost!

BTW ebay allows you set up accoutns using nothing but you email address if it is from you internet provider (cox) and not one of the free email accounts. Since cox allows me 7 address I keep one available to create accounts to screw with scammers. I just keep changing the email address and create a new ebay account.

There are way to many transaction on ebay for them to track me down via my IP address and ban me altogeather.


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