# When electric mountain bike no longer a bicycle?



## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

https://www.outsideonline.com/22810...k&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=facebookpost



> The Revolution we tested starts at $9,999 and is based on the slack geometry of a downhill bike. Like a normal downhill bike, it uses high-end RockShox suspension with eight inches of travel up front and nine inches at the rear, plus a 10-speed SRAM derailleur. Unlike a normal downhill bike, its rear wheel contains a 7.3 horsepower motor, the frame is built around a 1,800 watt-hour battery pack, and you can kick the bottom bracket to select a second speed on the single-ring front crank. The 85-tooth-equivalent gearing allows you to provide assistance to the motor, achieving a combined top speed of 60 mph.
> Of course, that's only after you reprogram it. The bike ships with a power and speed limiter that caps it at 20 mph to achieve legal classification as a pedal-assist bicycle. It also ships with instructions that enable the owner to remove these restrictions.
> 
> Because no one is going to buy an 82-pound bicycle, that essentially means HPC is selling a very light electric motorcycle that, *thanks to pedals and post-sale programming, is legally considered a bicycle.*


Didn't we say this was coming?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

They've been out for years, $10k machines like this and the Stealth will be eaten alive by the sub $4k emotos coming out of China like the Sur Ron which are far better machines and of course many riders are using them where they shouldn't. I think they'll be a problem for ebike access at some point, but not bikes.


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## BillyBicycle (Jul 4, 2016)

Honestly, I have no idea why they even bothered with pedals. it's far to heavy to be a bicycle under human power. And it's not legal on anything but private land, just as the article says. And who's going to buy it, just as the article says. I think this is destined for extinction.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Harryman said:


> T I think they'll be a problem for ebike access at some point, but not bikes.


I'm surprised you, of all people here, would think that. And here I thought land managers and the industry were coming around to the positive acceptance of Class 1 e-mtb's for trail use in general. I do understand how maybe an ignorant writer of a magazine article could promote the ridiculous and downright dangerous high speed capabilities of these electric motorcycles; there is always that 1% group of everything out there that wants to push the edge of what is acceptable and walk all over it.

After reading about a Russian made ATV called a Sherp over the weekend, I stumbled upon some videos of these things in action. Take a peek at this video and several things come to mind: Is this land private or public? Has it ever occured to these atv'rs of the catastrophic damage to the environment they are causing with their off road machines? I'll tell ya, what this Sherp can do to the land it operates in, makes this unending ebike argument on the trails to be a sunday afternoon tea sipping and cheese sampling get together..... Link: 




PS: These high powered, high speed electric motorcycles have no business at all operating on any public trail, imo. And as such, should be confiscated if caught doing so. This coming from a Haibike Full FatSix owner and rider.....


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch will be along soon to explain to us Luddites how the owners of these will always be responsible trail users and that they're just low power assisted bicycles that really elevate your heart rate.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> I'm surprised you, of all people here, would think that


Bikes like that are one of the reasons my local land managers don't allow emtbs on singletrack. They deal with the public every day, they are fully aware that the vast majority of public land users are responsible and polite, and it's the small percentage that ruins it for others. They have no resources to police ebike usage, most if them don't even have LEOs on staff to write tickets. If they don't allow emtbs, they know they'll get a few people poaching on 250w ebikes, they can deal with that. If they allow ebikes, they know they'll get yahoo's on all sorts of self described "ebikes" like these.

Mtbs are a large user group here, well respected and helpful to the land managers and other user groups, we really do get along. No one will ban mtbs based on emtbs, not here anyway.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Harryman said:


> Bikes like that are one of the reasons my local land managers don't allow emtbs on singletrack. They deal with the public every day, they are fully aware that the vast majority of public land users are responsible and polite, and it's the small percentage that ruins it for others. They have no resources to police ebike usage, most if them don't even have LEOs on staff to write tickets. If they don't allow emtbs, they know they'll get a few people poaching on 250w ebikes, they can deal with that. If they allow ebikes, they know they'll get yahoo's on all sorts of self described "ebikes" like these.
> 
> Mtbs are a large user group here, well respected and helpful to the land managers and other user groups, we really do get along. No one will ban mtbs based on emtbs, not here anyway.


I appreciate your response, though I disagree with the idea of banning all in order to cover the big power electric motorcycle types. A month or 2 or 3 ago, I did a mini rant of sorts on one of these like minded threads; kinda pleading in essence that we ALL join as one, the analog bikes and the class one emtbs on a united front to better protect the interests of all who want to pedal these trails. I'm an east coast person and I come away surprised by all of the hate and angst over the Class 1 bikes. I say this for I see the analog bikers as backing themselves into a corner of selfish intentions when the great wave of weekend warrior types start outnumbering the exclusive club of the hard core mountain biker.

Just my observation as one who wants to not see any access denied a mountain biker. Is it not best for the mtb and emtb-class one crowd to marshall forces against these high powered machines? I sure think so. Cause I do believe that wave is coming, as the baby boomers and millenials age out.....

Mike

PS: My perspective is not that of a single tracker. No high altitude, hugging a cliff side for me, thank you very much!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> Is it not best for the mtb and emtb-class one crowd to marshall forces against these high powered machines?


No. The line of demarcation is motors. Some trail networks would be lost with the inclusion of any motorized vehicle. MTBers have far to much to lose by allying with the motorized crowd.


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## attaboy (Apr 4, 2008)

life behind bars said:


> No. The line of demarcation is motors. Some trail networks would be lost with the inclusion of any motorized vehicle. MTBers have far to much to lose by allying with the motorized crowd.


Couldn't agree more. This has to be the line.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

life behind bars said:


> Gutch will be along soon to explain to us Luddites how the owners of these will always be responsible trail users and that they're just low power assisted bicycles that really elevate your heart rate.


My heart rate is way up now because I just ordered a Sherp! I'm driving it to the Sierra club meeting next Wednesday btw. A little disappointed that it doesn't have pedals though.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Hey LBB, I admire your positive attitude towards ebikes so much, I bought a shirt to remind me!


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## GoGoGordo (Jul 16, 2006)

Uh, Mr. LBB, I not sure your in the right forum.
This is ebikes.
Not e-hates.
Why don't you start an e-whiners forum?
Then all you guys can bemoan ebikes to each other.
Cause no one here is really listening to you anyways.
BRRRRRRAAAAAPPP that.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

GoGoGordo said:


> Uh, Mr. LBB, I not sure your in the right forum.
> This is ebikes.
> Not e-hates.
> Why don't you start an e-whiners forum?
> ...


And you're in the wrong forum if you think this is a safe space.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> No. The line of demarcation is motors. Some trail networks would be lost with the inclusion of any motorized vehicle. MTBers have far to much to lose by allying with the motorized crowd.


Yep.

MikeTowpathTraveler needs to look up the meaning of "analog" as well.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

GoGoGordo said:


> Uh, Mr. LBB, I not sure your in the right forum.
> This is ebikes.
> Not e-hates.
> Why don't you start an e-whiners forum?
> ...


I'm not sure you are on the right website, this is a mountain bike website, we talk about ebikes from the perspective of mountain bikers. If you don't like that, I suggest you find an ebike website.


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## BillyBicycle (Jul 4, 2016)

chazpat said:


> I'm not sure you are on the right website, this is a mountain bike website, we talk about ebikes from the perspective of mountain bikers. If you don't like that, I suggest you find an ebike website.


 All minds do not think alike here on this website. I'm a cyclist. I talk about ebikes from the perspective of a cyclist. For what it's worth, I have many different kinds of bicycles and several ebikes, no eMTB, and I already stated that the "bike" in this thread ain't a bike at all. Let someone ride that up a hill under natural aspirated power and let me know how it goes, something I frequently do with my eBike commuter when I'm out riding with my GF.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

I for one don't see the need to "grow the sport" by allowing for more people to mountain bike with motors. Land resources are limited as it is and getting more and more crowded every year. The sad truth of the matter is we are probably not going to get more access period.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

I'm being as neutral and objective as I can be on this idea of bringing in the Class 1 emtb'ers. And I certainly know I'm not going to convince any Analoger otherwise on this site. The analog crowd is going to lose when this idea of militant confrontation against average folks wanting to get off the beaten path greets them at the trail head. As people age out (that includes you, the analog biker), many will still want to stay active. And for them, the Ebike allows them to do that.

The problem with threads like this is that the original intent get's morphed into a lump-them-all-into-one mess that ultimately sees a Locked Thread for it's future ending. Or maybe that was the intent all along? Who knows.

Take a hint from where our major car manufacturer's are going for future propulsion plants and you'll find they all feature electric as the main propulsion engine. The sheer numbers of hybrid and electric car owners wanting to get back into biking, see these ebikes as a natural extension of driving. And I say these numbers of people are going to sweep over the analog crowd like a wave, year after year. You're not going to be able to keep those trails to yourselves indefinitely. Best to face that reality today by formulating some rational ideas on how to incorporate the Class 1's on those trails and keeping out the rogue electric motorcycles with pedals on them.

Or it will be done for you by govt; once the sheer numbers of voting ebikers force the issue by speaking out and demanding action. Just some ideas about what I see coming.....


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> I appreciate your response, though I disagree with the idea of banning all in order to cover the big power electric motorcycle types. A month or 2 or 3 ago, I did a mini rant of sorts on one of these like minded threads; kinda pleading in essence that we ALL join as one, the analog bikes and the class one emtbs on a united front to better protect the interests of all who want to pedal these trails. I'm an east coast person and I come away surprised by all of the hate and angst over the Class 1 bikes. I say this for I see the analog bikers as backing themselves into a corner of selfish intentions when the great wave of weekend warrior types start outnumbering the exclusive club of the hard core mountain biker.
> 
> Just my observation as one who wants to not see any access denied a mountain biker. Is it not best for the mtb and emtb-class one crowd to marshall forces against these high powered machines? I sure think so. Cause I do believe that wave is coming, as the baby boomers and millenials age out.....
> 
> ...


I can only comment based on my trail user environment, which is exceedingly pro mtb, emtbs don't bring anything to the table that we need. I've been in trail advocacy for over a decade, and 99.9% of mtb riders don't do a thing to help out, it'll be the same for emtb riders. The industry doesn't significantly contribute to trail builds, or advocacy, it's all local, if they don't give us money now, why would I expect them to in the future if we embrace emtbs? I woudn't expect emtb riders streaming in and dropping off $1000 checks, maybe a few $20 and $100 contributions here and there, which are nice, but really diddly, when you have $15k-$150k budgets for a trailbuild, you rely on grant money.

Like I said earlier, there's no threat that ebikes will jeopardize mtb access here, but in places with that are more antagonistic against mtbs, I could see it being an issue.

Unfortunately, the industry screwed guys like you, who just want to ride essentially EU spec emtbs, if they had adopted those specs exactly, you'd enjoy much more access. But with the US laws being so much more lenient, and enforcement being essentially non existent in most places, it'll be a much harder task. Given that the industry has done nothing to solve derestricting, or address the fact that anyone can start importing and selling anything they want to call an ebike, I think that emtb access will be increasingly threatened as higher powered emtbs start to show up on the trails.

Not my problem to solve, I'll stay out of it.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> I'm being as neutral and objective as I can be on this idea of bringing in the Class 1 emtb'ers. And I certainly know I'm not going to convince any Analoger otherwise on this site. The analog crowd is going to lose when this idea of militant confrontation against average folks wanting to get off the beaten path greets them at the trail head. As people age out (that includes you, the analog biker), many will still want to stay active. And for them, the Ebike allows them to do that.
> 
> The problem with threads like this is that the original intent get's morphed into a lump-them-all-into-one mess that ultimately sees a Locked Thread for it's future ending. Or maybe that was the intent all along? Who knows.
> 
> ...


Which has nothing at all to do with "solely human powered". Nice straw man, watch it burn.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> Or maybe that was the intent all alOr it will be done for you by govt; once the sheer numbers of voting ebikers force the issue by speaking out and demanding action. Just some ideas about what I see coming.....


Public land management policy isn't set by voting. You can show up at a public meeting and make your voice heard, but the people who make those decisions have no obligation to act on your wishes.

If you want to influence public land management policy, you have to develop relationships with public poicy makers, and IME, help make their job easier by being a partner and helping them solve problems. It also helps if you can show you are representing a significant user group and can accomplish things. All of this takes years.

You could also try to bribe people I suppose.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Harryman: I appreciate the input and personal perspective you've brought to the table here, very much!

Mike


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I hope to never see a machine like the one in the OP on my local trails ever.....


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> I'm being as neutral and objective as I can be on this idea of bringing in the Class 1 emtb'ers. And I certainly know I'm not going to convince any Analoger otherwise on this site. The analog crowd is going to lose when this idea of militant confrontation against average folks wanting to get off the beaten path greets them at the trail head. As people age out (that includes you, the analog biker), many will still want to stay active. And for them, the Ebike allows them to do that.
> 
> The problem with threads like this is that the original intent get's morphed into a lump-them-all-into-one mess that ultimately sees a Locked Thread for it's future ending. Or maybe that was the intent all along? Who knows.
> 
> ...


Dude, again, wth is an "analog bicycle"? If you are trying to differentiate an electric motor propelled bike from a traditional bike, "traditional" or even "manual" would be more appropriate, though "bicycle" is all you really need to say. And yes, motorized bikes will transition to electric motors just like automobiles, but trying to compare a bicycle to an ice automobile doesn't make any sense.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I think some people that do motocross and ride mtbs are drawn into emtbs. I know I am. It’s my 2 favorite hobbies wrapped into 1. This debate can go on forever and probably will. Who would have thought something could potentially divide mtbrs? There’s going to be some serious poaching going on. Not that I’m an advocate of it, but reality of more and more emtbs coming...


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

chazpat said:


> Dude, again, wth is an "analog bicycle"? If you are trying to differentiate an electric motor propelled bike from a traditional bike, "traditional" or even "manual" would be more appropriate, though "bicycle" is all you really need to say. And yes, motorized bikes will transition to electric motors just like automobiles, but trying to compare a bicycle to an ice automobile doesn't make any sense.


Some riders in the U.K. call them "Acustic" vs. "electric". It's like John Denver or Van Halen?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Bicycle: a vehicle with two wheels tandem, handlebars for steering, a saddle seat, and pedals by which it is propelled

Motorcycle: a two-wheeled vehicle that is powered by a motor and has no pedals.

If you removed the pedals from a bike, it could be pushed but not driven. 

If you removed the pedals from an e-bike, would it still be able to be ridden (not just pushed)?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Not mine.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> I appreciate your response, though I disagree with the idea of banning all in order to cover the big power electric motorcycle types. A month or 2 or 3 ago, I did a mini rant of sorts on one of these like minded threads; kinda pleading in essence that we ALL join as one, the analog bikes and the class one emtbs on a united front to better protect the interests of all who want to pedal these trails. I'm an east coast person and I come away surprised by all of the hate and angst over the Class 1 bikes. I say this for I see the analog bikers as backing themselves into a corner of selfish intentions when the great wave of weekend warrior types start outnumbering the exclusive club of the hard core mountain biker.
> 
> Just my observation as one who wants to not see any access denied a mountain biker. Is it not best for the mtb and emtb-class one crowd to marshall forces against these high powered machines? I sure think so. Cause I do believe that wave is coming, as the baby boomers and millenials age out.....
> 
> ...


That is a really good post. It's refreshing to see someone objective who can look at both sides of a subject and not immediately take one side. Instead of fighting about access, wouldn't it be a better idea to simply appreciate access that we have, and plan access that we want, all of us together?

I get the paranoia from the pedal bikers. That this e-bike thing is a slippery slope, that if you allow class 1, then class 2/3 starts poaching, and then if you give up against those, then class 4 enters, and it's all over, the trail is banned for everyone. That should not happen if the county/state/feds were properly educated on what the similarities and differences class 1 has vs. a normal mountain bike, what the impact, or lack of impact is, and how to tell the difference between the various bike types. Maybe there needs to be large stickers designating the class of e-bike, so they are quickly recognized and determined if they are allowed on the trail system or not. There will always be cheaters/poachers, guys with real motorcycles on the trails, class 4 on the trails (although I have not seen a class 4 yet there). But banning all bikes on a trail is just lazy, it's giving up on the problem more than addressing it correctly. It's like banning all cars from the freeway because some people drink alcohol, or speed. And drinking/speeding in a car is FAR more dangerous than some e-bike speeding around a trail, you have to admit that... You have to take the bad with the good. Nothing is perfect. You cannot proceed with any of this until someone is realistic about what could and will happen on the trails, accept it, and then make the best compromise. It's the purists/perfectionists that are slowing down the access progress with their personality disorders.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

richj8990 said:


> That is a really good post. It's refreshing to see someone objective who can look at both sides of a subject and not immediately take one side. Instead of fighting about access, wouldn't it be a better idea to simply appreciate access that we have, and plan access that we want, all of us together?
> 
> I get the paranoia from the pedal bikers. That this e-bike thing is a slippery slope, that if you allow class 1, then class 2/3 starts poaching, and then if you give up against those, then class 4 enters, and it's all over, the trail is banned for everyone. That should not happen if the county/state/feds were properly educated on what the similarities and differences class 1 has vs. a normal mountain bike, what the impact, or lack of impact is, and how to tell the difference between the various bike types. Maybe there needs to be large stickers designating the class of e-bike, so they are quickly recognized and determined if they are allowed on the trail system or not. There will always be cheaters/poachers, guys with real motorcycles on the trails, class 4 on the trails (although I have not seen a class 4 yet there). But banning all bikes on a trail is just lazy, it's giving up on the problem more than addressing it correctly. It's like banning all cars from the freeway because some people drink alcohol, or speed. And drinking/speeding in a car is FAR more dangerous than some e-bike speeding around a trail, you have to admit that... You have to take the bad with the good. Nothing is perfect. You cannot proceed with any of this until someone is realistic about what could and will happen on the trails, accept it, and then make the best compromise. It's the purists/perfectionists that are slowing down the access progress with their personality disorders.


Or, if they have motors they are no longer bikes and they can ride some places but not all. 
Talk about a personality disorder, look in the mirror dude.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

What's a "class 4" ebike?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

chazpat said:


> What's a "class 4" ebike?


Shorthand for an >750w emoto


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

richj8990 said:


> That should not happen if the county/state/feds were properly educated on what the similarities and differences class 1 has vs. a normal mountain bike, what the impact, or lack of impact is, and how to tell the difference between the various bike types.


Ok, as an example, my land managers are well aware of the current classes of ebikes, and almost all ride mtbs, so they can tell them apart. I doubt they will spend their free time keeping up with emerging technology though, it's not in their job description. Anyone stepping up to send them to seminars?



richj8990 said:


> Maybe there needs to be large stickers designating the class of e-bike, so they are quickly recognized and determined if they are allowed on the trail system or not.


As required by law, there already are class stickers. Which only help if there is money in the budget for people to check them. Isn't any in most places.



richj8990 said:


> But banning all bikes on a trail is just lazy, it's giving up on the problem more than addressing it correctly.


No one is banning mtbs because of ebikes.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> I appreciate your response, though I disagree with the idea of banning all in order to cover the big power electric motorcycle types. A month or 2 or 3 ago, I did a mini rant of sorts on one of these like minded threads; kinda pleading in essence that we ALL join as one, the analog bikes and the class one emtbs on a united front to better protect the interests of all who want to pedal these trails. I'm an east coast person and I come away surprised by all of the hate and angst over the Class 1 bikes. I say this for I see the analog bikers as backing themselves into a corner of selfish intentions when the great wave of weekend warrior types start outnumbering the exclusive club of the hard core mountain biker.
> 
> Just my observation as one who wants to not see any access denied a mountain biker. Is it not best for the mtb and emtb-class one crowd to marshall forces against these high powered machines? I sure think so. Cause I do believe that wave is coming, as the baby boomers and millenials age out.....
> 
> ...


 There is no we. Motors are the line in the sand. So to speak. There are no "classes" of e bikes. Just a sticker or mod away from a free for all of anything goes. East coast guy here. MA rider. It's not angst, they are just illegal for the most part here.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> I'm being as neutral and objective as I can be on this idea of bringing in the Class 1 emtb'ers. And I certainly know I'm not going to convince any Analoger otherwise on this site. The analog crowd is going to lose when this idea of militant confrontation against average folks wanting to get off the beaten path greets them at the trail head. As people age out (that includes you, the analog biker), many will still want to stay active. And for them, the Ebike allows them to do that.
> 
> The problem with threads like this is that the original intent get's morphed into a lump-them-all-into-one mess that ultimately sees a Locked Thread for it's future ending. Or maybe that was the intent all along? Who knows.
> 
> ...


 It's inevitable? Ugg. 55 here, I just become a couch potato when I hit 60? Yikes. Voters? Of what? Going to change the local conservation easements and policy makers minds? Good luck with that. Going to rewrite the land rules banning motorized vehicles? Hmmm. And now e bikes=driving my prius? Okay. Demanding action? All I hear is crickets. Good luck with that. Really.


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## GoGoGordo (Jul 16, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> And you're in the wrong forum if you think this is a safe space.


I don't think it is a safe space. 
Specially with guys like you around trying to tell us all ebikes are the end of the world.
Your not here to debate, just antagonize.
Dats what Trolls do bra.
Nobody cares.
Now Gimme some red rep brah! 
and say something mean too, so you don't break character . :ciappa:
Good luck in life my friend!
I hope we don't see each other on the trail.
If we did, I would be the guy passing you.
On my Levo.
BRRRAAAAPPP!!!


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

GoGoGordo said:


> I don't think it is a safe space.
> Specially with guys like you around trying to tell us all ebikes are the end of the world.
> Your not here to debate, just antagonize.
> Dats what Trolls do bra.
> ...


I think he was trying to be nice and show that this isn't the safest space to discuss the merits of Ebikes. MTBR, while having an Ebike forum, isn't necessarily welcoming of them. However at least you were a dick about it so good luck with your future interactions here and expecting people to be accepting of your point of view.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

GoGoGordo said:


> I don't think it is a safe space.
> Specially with guys like you around trying to tell us all ebikes are the end of the world.
> Your not here to debate, just antagonize.
> Dats what Trolls do bra.
> ...


How old are you?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

GoGoGordo said:


> I don't think it is a safe space.
> Specially with guys like you around trying to tell us all ebikes are the end of the world.
> Your not here to debate, just antagonize.
> Dats what Trolls do bra.
> ...


Honest question... Are you stupid?


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

richj8990 said:


> That is a really good post. Nothing is perfect. You cannot proceed with any of this until someone is realistic about what could and will happen on the trails, accept it, and then make the best compromise. It's the purists/perfectionists that are slowing down the access progress with their personality disorders.


Are talking about the analogists?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Just a small aside - using the term "braaap" is probably not a great idea if you want legal access to nonmotorized trails.

I know it sounds cool and fun. But you probably want to avoid the association with motorcycles, not flaunt it.

But hey, what do I know.

-Walt


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Walt said:


> Just a small aside - using the term "braaap" is probably not a great idea if you want legal access to nonmotorized trails.
> 
> I know it sounds cool and fun. But you probably want to avoid the association with motorcycles, not flaunt it.
> 
> ...


If I were an anti-MTB "HOH", I'd take screenshots of his posts and use them as evidence at the local land management meeting.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Le Duke said:


> If I were an anti-MTB "HOH", I'd take screenshots of his posts and use them as evidence at the local land management meeting.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They probably already are. Idiots.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

richj8990 said:


> I get the paranoia from the pedal bikers. That this e-bike thing is a slippery slope, that if you allow class 1, then class 2/3 starts poaching, and then if you give up against those, then class 4 enters, and it's all over, the trail is banned for everyone. That should not happen if the county/state/feds were properly educated on what the similarities and differences class 1 has vs. a normal mountain bike, what the impact, or lack of impact is, and how to tell the difference between the various bike types. Maybe there needs to be large stickers designating the class of e-bike, so they are quickly recognized and determined if they are allowed on the trail system or not. There will always be cheaters/poachers, guys with real motorcycles on the trails, class 4 on the trails (although I have not seen a class 4 yet there). But banning all bikes on a trail is just lazy, it's giving up on the problem more than addressing it correctly. It's like banning all cars from the freeway because some people drink alcohol, or speed. And drinking/speeding in a car is FAR more dangerous than some e-bike speeding around a trail, you have to admit that... You have to take the bad with the good. Nothing is perfect. You cannot proceed with any of this until someone is realistic about what could and will happen on the trails, accept it, and then make the best compromise. It's the purists/perfectionists that are slowing down the access progress with their personality disorders.


Wishful thinking. What you said is like asking for world peace. Who's going to pay for policing of ebikes? You? regular mountain bikers? bike shops? bike manufacturers? aint happening.

The easiest way to distinguish them is if it has a motor or not. We need not go any further.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

richj8990 said:


> It's like banning all cars from the freeway because some people drink alcohol, or speed. And drinking/speeding in a car is FAR more dangerous than some e-bike speeding around a trail, you have to admit that...


How are the two subjects even related???


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Are there any ebikers on this thread? Braap Braap Braap!


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Are there any ebikers on this thread? Braap Braap Braap!


There are hardly any ebikers on this forum, let alone this thread. There is like 5 to 15 people who view this forum and most are here against ebikes. This is a mountain biking web site after all, not an ebike web site.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

I don't have an ebike, but have ridden several class 1 Ebikes and love them. My next purchase will be an ebike. Reviewing this form it is sad how quickly ebike people are attacked. I can see why people who love Ebikes don't post often. There are clear rules at the top of this form that are not being enforced. 
Form Rules
All posts about trail access will now be moved to the Trail Building and Advocacy sub-forum (Trail Building and Advocacy - Mtbr.com)

This section is for discussion of eBikes and eBike specific accessories, discussions about legality and such will be moved out of this section or deleted at the Moderators' discretion.

Threads started to purposefully incite other users will be deleted.

The modding of ebikes to make them faster is irresponsible and dangerous. Sure it happens all the time but MTBR will not promote this.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Thread lost me at 'analog biker'. 

Frigging Bizzarro World.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tahoebeau said:


> There are hardly any ebikers on this forum, let alone this thread. There is like 5 to 15 people who view this forum and most are here against ebikes. This is a mountain biking web site after all, not an ebike web site.


Thank you for your keen wisdom on the matter. Did you not click on "ebikes?"


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

mtbbiker said:


> The modding of ebikes to make them faster is irresponsible and dangerous.* Sure it happens all the time* but MTBR will not promote this.


...and you're ok with this? Or you would just as well turn a blind eye for the sake of your enjoyment?


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

I don’t think anyone can stop modding of ebikes anymore than they could stop someone from modding their mountain bike. People are going to do it.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Lemonaid said:


> ...and you're ok with this? Or you would just as well turn a blind eye for the sake of your enjoyment?


He's quoting the forum rules, but he didn't put it in quotes.


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

I am waiting for the wave of e-mtbs to wash over the Earth and purify it of non-motorized idiots. Think of all the extra food on the shelves because so many less calories burned with "non biking". (but you get just as good of a work out(probably better!))


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## Ridenomatterwhat (Sep 12, 2018)

I'm new here, but not new to cycling. I was racing mountain bikes in the 80's and cycling is still my main passion today. Earlier this year I lost a lung due to illness and am currently unable to ride at any meaningful level. I demo'd an eMTB last week and had an absolutely great time and great ride. It was like being reborn. It was a workout (breathing heavy throughout, but at a level that I could manage) that clearly has rehabilitative value. Not to mention the psychological benefits of reconnecting with my passion and the happiness that ensued.

I live in MA and I was warned that NEMBA is hostile to eMTBs. I read their policy today and it is definitely hostile. I guess they finally joined the elites and pulled the ladder up behind them. I feel betrayed by the community that I have been a part of for so long. If you are one of the many posters hostile to eMTBs, I hope you can re-think your position on this. This division makes no sense and it fractures the camaraderie.


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## attaboy (Apr 4, 2008)

_"But banning all bikes on a trail is just lazy, it's giving up on the problem more than addressing it correctly. It's like banning all cars from the freeway because some people drink alcohol, or speed. "
_
But, it has and does happen. Calling it "lazy" doesn't change that it's likely.

"And drinking/speeding in a car is FAR more dangerous than some e-bike speeding around a trail, you have to admit that... "

Which is why these behaviors are illegal. It's not driving that's illegal -- the line of demarcation is driving while under the influence. You agree there has to be a line -- you prefer the Class 1 line. Motor/no-motor is another clear line of demarcation which some of us think makes more sense given human nature, which may indeed include "lazy" or easiest solution.


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## Ridenomatterwhat (Sep 12, 2018)

Lemonaid said:


> How are the two subjects even related???


I think what richj8990 is saying is that some (most?) eMTB riders are likely to ride responsibly, so let's not assume that e-bikers are uniformly dangerous and threatening to the sport.


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

So understanding the difference between something with a motor and something without a motor=being an eliteist.


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## Ridenomatterwhat (Sep 12, 2018)

karthur said:


> So understanding the difference between something with a motor and something without a motor=being an eliteist.


No, of course not. Just re-frame "elitist." When equestrians were busy trying to get bicycles banned from trails, I'd say they were exercising the power of the elite. They had money and power and didn't want to share "their" resources with anyone else. Cyclists developed power by organizing and cooperating. Now they have become the elite by using their own money and power to ban a new category of trail users. History repeats itself.


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## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

I understand, people that don't agree with you are the elites.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> No, of course not. Just re-frame "elitist." When equestrians were busy trying to get bicycles banned from trails, I'd say they were exercising the power of the elite. They had money and power and didn't want to share "their" resources with anyone else. Cyclists developed power by organizing and cooperating. Now they have become the elite by using their own money and power to ban a new category of trail users. History repeats itself.


You are confusing "purist" for "elitist".


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> No, of course not. Just re-frame "elitist." When equestrians were busy trying to get bicycles banned from trails, I'd say they were exercising the power of the elite. They had money and power and didn't want to share "their" resources with anyone else. Cyclists developed power by organizing and cooperating. Now they have become the elite by using their own money and power to ban a new category of trail users. History repeats itself.


Motorized vehicles have always been banned on some trails.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> No, of course not. Just re-frame "elitist." When equestrians were busy trying to get bicycles banned from trails, I'd say they were exercising the power of the elite. They had money and power and didn't want to share "their" resources with anyone else. Cyclists developed power by organizing and cooperating. Now they have become the elite by using their own money and power to ban a new category of trail users. History repeats itself.


There is a big difference between equestrians, bicycle riders and embt riders when It comes to money. Mtbs can be had for very cheap to expensive. However, owning a horse or an embt takes a good amount of disposable income and there is no inexpensive alternative. These are things that usually only the elite can afford. So emtbs is really an activity reserved for the elite like horse back riding.

Those who own an embt are most likely in a more elite financial class than someone who just owns a mountain bike and most likely to have more power (influence) than an individual mtber just like equestrians.


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## Ridenomatterwhat (Sep 12, 2018)

singletrackmack said:


> There is a big difference between equestrians, bicycle riders and ebike riders when It comes to money. Mtbs can be had for very cheap to expensive. However, owning a horse or an ebike (capable of tough terrain) takes a good amount of disposable income and there is no inexpensive alternative. These are things that usually only the elite can afford. So emtbs is really an activity reserved for the elite like horse back riding.
> 
> Those who own an embt are most likely in a more elite financial class than someone who just owns a mountain bike and most likely to have more power than an individual mtber.


Look, you can pick apart "elitist" and "purist." The big picture is that trail users want to exclude other trail users. Now it's MTB against eMTB, whatever the arguments might be. Feel free to make a philosophical debate of it.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> . Now they have become the elite by using their own money and power to ban a new category of trail users. History repeats itself.


You are delusional

Mountain bikers had nothing at all to do with motorized vehicles being disallowed from most N.E. trails. Maybe you should try educating yourself a little something about what the actual 'history' of MTB access around here is rather than just making up random conspiracy theories to fit your narrative.

Also, NEMBA's position it that eMTBs are a separate user group from mountain bikers, due to the undeniable and wildly obvious fact that they have a motor, which in itself is enough to cost us a TON of hard-won trail access in this part of the country. NEMBA would be shooting itself in the foot to all of a sudden start pushing the false agenda that 'bicycles have motors now, deal with it' after spending decades driving home the human-powered-only characteristics of MTBing to land managers.

Again, try to have an idea what you're talking about before going and getting all indignant over imaginary issues.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> Look, you can pick apart "elitist" and "purist." The big picture is that trail users want to exclude other trail users. Now it's MTB against eMTB, whatever the arguments might be. Feel free to make a philosophical debate of it.


And? Some users have and always will be excluded from some trails, including bicycles. What makes you think e-motorbikes should be exempted from the same exclusions? No philosophy required.


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> Look, you can pick apart "elitist" and "purist." The big picture is that trail users want to exclude other trail users. Now it's MTB against eMTB, whatever the arguments might be. Feel free to make a philosophical debate of it.


So your philosophy is that no trail users should be excluded? Those who choose to say ride motos are free to ride on any trail they want because trail users shouldn't be excluding other trail users.



life behind bars said:


> And? Some users have and always will be excluded from some trails, including bicycles. What makes you think e-motorbikes should be exempted from the same exclusions? No philosophy required.


But, but, everyone gets a trophy still, right?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

All this bickering makes me wanna go crack a beer... oh wait, I already have one. Well I reckon I should plug in for tommorows unplugged time on brown carpet ride.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> Look, you can pick apart "elitist" and "purist." The big picture is that trail users want to exclude other trail users. Now it's MTB against eMTB, whatever the arguments might be. Feel free to make a philosophical debate of it.


It's actually MTB against eMTB against eMTB, which I find amusing. Class 1 riders don't want Class 2 riders on the trail either.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Lemonaid said:


> ...and you're ok with this? Or you would just as well turn a blind eye for the sake of your enjoyment?


I was quoting the form rules and it seems like the anti ebike folks just ignore. 
Personally, I'm only okay with class 1 ebikes. I've seen plenty on the trails and not one was riding irresponsible. All had huge smiles on thier faces and they looked just like any other mountian bikers. No dirt roosting off the rear wheels, no wake of normal bikers going holy crap what just passed us or hikers. 
I honestly don't see what class 1 ebikes do that get the anti e bikers panties all bunched up. They go slightly faster uphill then a regular mountain bike, that's the only difference I see. 
I can't wait to get an Levo or Kenvo.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ridenomatterwhat (Sep 12, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> You are delusional
> 
> Mountain bikers had nothing at all to do with motorized vehicles being disallowed from most N.E. trails. Maybe you should try educating yourself a little something about what the actual 'history' of MTB access around here is rather than just making up random conspiracy theories to fit your narrative.
> 
> ...


You're getting hostile slaphead. But I'll tell you what. I was riding in MA before NEMBA ever existed. I've done more to maintain multi-user trails in my area than NEMBA ever did. I have supported NEMBA with cash donations. I have ridden with NEMBA people who openly flout their access guidelines and then scold others for doing the same. I applauded NEMBA when they took action to keep "Vietnam" open with a land purchase.

NEMBA isn't perfect and neither am I. I don't expect NEMBA, or you, for that matter, to agree with me, but you don't have to be such a dick about it.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> I'm new here, but not new to cycling. I was racing mountain bikes in the 80's and cycling is still my main passion today. Earlier this year I lost a lung due to illness and am currently unable to ride at any meaningful level. I demo'd an eMTB last week and had an absolutely great time and great ride. It was like being reborn. It was a workout (breathing heavy throughout, but at a level that I could manage) that clearly has rehabilitative value. Not to mention the psychological benefits of reconnecting with my passion and the happiness that ensued.
> 
> I live in MA and I was warned that NEMBA is hostile to eMTBs. I read their policy today and it is definitely hostile. I guess they finally joined the elites and pulled the ladder up behind them. I feel betrayed by the community that I have been a part of for so long. If you are one of the many posters hostile to eMTBs, I hope you can re-think your position on this. This division makes no sense and it fractures the camaraderie.


I think you will find that pretty much everyone here is fully supportive of e-bike use on any trails for folks with handicaps. I don't know about NEMBA in particular, but here in Park City you are exempt from the e-bike ban. Come on out and ride!

-Walt


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> You're getting hostile slaphead. But I'll tell you what. I was riding in MA before NEMBA ever existed. I've done more to maintain multi-user trails in my area than NEMBA ever did. I have supported NEMBA with cash donations. I have ridden with NEMBA people who openly flout their access guidelines and then scold others for doing the same. I applauded NEMBA when they took action to keep "Vietnam" open with a land purchase.
> 
> NEMBA isn't perfect and neither am I. I don't expect NEMBA, or you, for that matter, to agree with me, but you don't have to be such a dick about it.


I am somewhat hostile to people making things up out of thin air and presenting them as facts. 
There is no 'agree' or 'disagree' here; you said mountain bikers (through NEMBA) had a hand in getting motorized vehicles banned from the trails. That's 100% false. NEMBA didn't exist then; hell, mountain biking barely existed then. Your basis for labeling the organisation as a bunch of 'elitists' is premised on nothing.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

It's a fair point - I'm unaware of any instances of motos getting banned because of mountain bikers advocating for it. Motos dug their own grave most places by acting like buffoons, and because the AMA was too retarded to rescind their weight limit rules and let manufacturers build lightweight/low power/quiet motos. 

Don't even get me started on the ATV/shoot signs/drink whiskey and roll my RAZR off an embankment with my whole family inside people.

A lot of people reflexively hate anything with a motor on a trail at this point. It'll be a long road to change that mindset.

-Walt


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## Ridenomatterwhat (Sep 12, 2018)

I tire of this pointless argument. Peace be with you. Enjoy your rides.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Harryman said:


> It's actually MTB against eMTB against eMTB, which I find amusing. Class 1 riders don't want Class 2 riders on the trail either.


^purists


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

life behind bars said:


> You are confusing "purist" for "elitist".


I think the proper term is "analog cyclist".

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> No, of course not. Just re-frame "elitist." When equestrians were busy trying to get bicycles banned from trails, I'd say they were exercising the power of the elite. They had money and power and didn't want to share "their" resources with anyone else. Cyclists developed power by organizing and cooperating. Now they have become the elite by using their own money and power to ban a new category of trail users. History repeats itself.


Motorbikes are not new user groups, and have been banned on non motorized trails for a long time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brownpownow (Jul 19, 2018)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> No, of course not. Just re-frame "elitist." When equestrians were busy trying to get bicycles banned from trails, I'd say they were exercising the power of the elite. They had money and power and didn't want to share "their" resources with anyone else. Cyclists developed power by organizing and cooperating. Now they have become the elite by using their own money and power to ban a new category of trail users. History repeats itself.


History does repeat itself, just not in the way that you imagine.

What the motor bicycle folks are trying to do is ride the coat tails of the advocacy that mountain bikers have been doing for years. This advocacy has resulted in many areas permitting mountain bikes because they are human-powered.

History is repeating itself here because way back when the Blue Ribbon Coalition (moto and ATV guys) argued that we should ban together with them lest we lose access to riding areas. That was happening to them but it made no sense to align ourselves with a moto/ATV group (that was funded by extraction industries also...) because we were already have a hard enough time with the land managers and other user groups without being equated with the braaap crowd.

It strikes me that many of the motor bicycle proponents have never been involved in sit-across-a-table-from-HOHAs-for-months advocacy and simply can't understand what it would mean to include motor bicycles in those access discussions.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^Also true for 99.9% of mtbrs. Emtbs are low in numbers compared to mtbs. Emtbs are still relatively new in the big scheme of things. Emtbrs are a “new” trail user and it’s going to take some time to get things rolling. I was talking to my local state park and they said, no ebikes. I asked them maybe allow a day a week for try out? Yet to hear back. Very few emtbs in my area that I’ve personally seen.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> I'm new here, but not new to cycling. I was racing mountain bikes in the 80's and cycling is still my main passion today. Earlier this year I lost a lung due to illness and am currently unable to ride at any meaningful level. I demo'd an eMTB last week and had an absolutely great time and great ride. It was like being reborn. It was a workout (breathing heavy throughout, but at a level that I could manage) that clearly has rehabilitative value. Not to mention the psychological benefits of reconnecting with my passion and the happiness that ensued.
> 
> I live in MA and I was warned that NEMBA is hostile to eMTBs. I read their policy today and it is definitely hostile. I guess they finally joined the elites and pulled the ladder up behind them. I feel betrayed by the community that I have been a part of for so long. If you are one of the many posters hostile to eMTBs, I hope you can re-think your position on this. This division makes no sense and it fractures the camaraderie.


 Got a HP card, no issues. And check out the ADA, lots of info there. Hostile? Um no. Just not legal for the most part here in MA. We have advocated for human powered access, e bikes are something different and need to be treated as such. Add in DCR rules as well as town conservation agreements regarding non motorized access. Motos had access, flouted the laws and made a mess of the trails. They did themselves in without our help. Advocating for changing the rules if you don't like them. Just don't expect lots of mt bikers to help you. ( Some maybe?) Mt bike access here in MA is tenuous at best, the thought of motorized ebikes causing harm to trail access? Good luck with your advocacy.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> I tire of this pointless argument. Peace be with you. Enjoy your rides.


Not an argument, education.
I have no issues with sharing trails with ebikes personally, but mountain bikers are not responsible for e-bikes losing or growing their access in any way. That is NEMBAs position also; they are a mountain bike advocacy organization, not an e-bike advocacy organization. Pretty simple.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

mtbbiker said:


> I was quoting the form rules and it seems like the anti ebike folks just ignore.
> Personally, I'm only okay with class 1 ebikes. I've seen plenty on the trails and not one was riding irresponsible. All had huge smiles on thier faces and they looked just like any other mountian bikers. No dirt roosting off the rear wheels, no wake of normal bikers going holy crap what just passed us or hikers.
> I honestly don't see what class 1 ebikes do that get the anti e bikers panties all bunched up. They go slightly faster uphill then a regular mountain bike, that's the only difference I see.
> I can't wait to get an Levo or Kenvo.
> ...


I'm fine with class 1 ebikes also, but as pointed out in the original post, there is absolutely no way to differentiate a class 1 ebike from a moped disguised as one. Hence the point of this post. If ebikers want to ride on trails that are open for motorized vehicles I for one have no objections, but the line of demarcation for all other access IS the motor...


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

There’s many “non motorized” trails that allow ebikes. Just depends where you live.


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

Gutch said:


> There's many "non motorized" trails that allow ebikes. Just depends where you live.


Or, depending on where you live, there are absolutely no "non motorized" trails that allow ebikes. This is goes for the vast majority of places. I am not even sure how far away the closest place is that I could ride an ebike on a non moto trail. There are not a lot.


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## brownpownow (Jul 19, 2018)

Gutch said:


> ^Also true for 99.9% of mtbrs. Emtbs are low in numbers compared to mtbs. Emtbs are still relatively new in the big scheme of things. Emtbrs are a "new" trail user and it's going to take some time to get things rolling. I was talking to my local state park and they said, no ebikes. I asked them maybe allow a day a week for try out? Yet to hear back. Very few emtbs in my area that I've personally seen.


Whataboutism isn't advocacy.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> ^purists


Right? Haters too, goes without saying.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

You’re absolutely correct. Want to advocate for ebikes on singletrack with me? I totally agree that all us emtbrs need to do some serious advocacy.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> You're absolutely correct. Want to advocate for ebikes on singletrack with me? I totally agree that all us emtbrs need to do some serious advocacy.


Once again..."You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Gutch again."


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## brownpownow (Jul 19, 2018)

Gutch said:


> Want to advocate for ebikes on singletrack with me?


Not me.

See my previous comments about the BRC and the real world problems that advocating for motorized use create for mountain bike advocates.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I know, I was just kidding!


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## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

tahoebeau said:


> Or, depending on where you live, there are absolutely no "non motorized" trails that allow ebikes. This is goes for the vast majority of places. I am not even sure how far away the closest place is that I could ride an ebike on a non moto trail. There are not a lot.


Lake Tahoe Nevada state park http://parks.nv.gov/forms/Spooner_backcountry_map.pdf

Not sure if upper Corral and Sidewinder allow motos in South Lake.


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## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> You are delusional
> 
> Also, NEMBA's position it that eMTBs are a separate user group from mountain bikers, due to the undeniable and wildly obvious fact that they have a motor, which in itself is enough to cost us a TON of hard-won trail access in this part of the country.


I've seen this argument multiple times on here, that eMTB will cost MTB trail access, but has that ever happened that anyone knows of? If so, what are the details? Or is it just one of many possible outcomes?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Thx SHM. I think it’s time we lay out differences aside and realize this is a new beast. I have been a mtbr since climbing mt tam with a damn smoke in my mouth. Btw, lived in NY at the time. As a long time bmxer and mtbr, I’m looking for a few old school riders to understand the emtb thing. It’s a lot of fun!


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

notb said:


> I've seen this argument multiple times on here, that eMTB will cost MTB trail access, but has that ever happened that anyone knows of? If so, what are the details? Or is it just one of many possible outcomes?


Nah, there's not enough emtbs in the wild in the US for anyone outside of a few places in CA to even notice. They'll only have a chance to be a problem if there is ever enough of them to be a problem. Chicken and egg, the shops here have stopped selling emtbs AFAICT since there's very few trails to ride them on legally.


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## GoGoGordo (Jul 16, 2006)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Honest question... Are you stupid?


Yes. for coming to this site/forum. :crazy:
Like John Wayne said, Life is hard.
It's harder when your stupid.
Or when you don't have an e-bike. 
BUUURRRRRRAAAAP!
Carry on cubicle dwellers.
Nothing to see here.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

GoGoGordo said:


> Yes. for coming to this site/forum. :crazy:
> Like John Wayne said, Life is hard.
> It's harder when your stupid.
> Or when you don't have an e-bike.
> ...


Yet here you are.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

GoGoGordo said:


> Yes. for coming to this site/forum. :crazy:
> Like John Wayne said, Life is hard.
> It's harder when your stupid.
> Or when you don't have an e-bike.
> ...


It's "you're stupid", not "your stupid", stupid.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ridenomatterwhat (Sep 12, 2018)

leeboh said:


> Got a HP card, no issues. And check out the ADA, lots of info there. Hostile? Um no. Just not legal for the most part here in MA. We have advocated for human powered access, e bikes are something different and need to be treated as such. Add in DCR rules as well as town conservation agreements regarding non motorized access. Motos had access, flouted the laws and made a mess of the trails. They did themselves in without our help. Advocating for changing the rules if you don't like them. Just don't expect lots of mt bikers to help you. ( Some maybe?) Mt bike access here in MA is tenuous at best, the thought of motorized ebikes causing harm to trail access? Good luck with your advocacy.


You're right, eMTBs are something different, which is why it's wrong to lump them in with motorized vehicles. It's a very simple view that if a bicycle has a motor, it should be treated like a JEEP. You might as well lump your bicycle in with your skateboard. Is the "motor vs. non-motor" the logic that you will continue to depend on?

So far I have seen no evidence that eMTBs have caused trail closures. Please enlighten me if there is an actual example of this happening. Meanwhile, NEMBA is fearmongering about access being endangered by eMTBs while "purist" MTB riders are in fact causing trail closures, e.g, Los Alto Hills, CA, where the problem was excessive speed in a mixed user environment. And every eastern MA rider knows that NEMBA riders are flouting their own policies and riding on trails that they agreed, with land use managers, were prohibited trails.

Here is what's going to happen. People are going to ride eMTBs on most of the trails currently used by MTB riders. If any officials have a beef with it, all off-road cyclists will suffer the same consequences. In a sense, NEMBA is screwing itself with their chosen policy position. It's better to unite than divide. Or, the alternative outcome might be that eMTB riders join the crowd of MTB riders and nobody actually cares.

If you want to maintain access, it's more about responsible behavior, showing respect and courtesy, and forming relationships with other trail users. A good way to do this is to keep the trails clean and in good repair for everyone. Carry out some trash from time to time, even if it's not yours. If you see somebody who needs help, help them. Influence people directly and when access is being hashed out in town meetings, someone that you made friends with is going to stand up and say "I've met some riders on the trails and they're good people. One guy was actually hauling out some trash." That is the best advocate you could ever hope to get, and that's my brand of advocacy. I work best at the grass roots level. I thank NEMBA for all of the good work they have done with their own very effective advocacy.

Thanks for the advice on ADA. Have great rides!


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> *So far I have seen no evidence that eMTBs have caused trail closures.* Please enlighten me if there is an actual example of this happening. Meanwhile, NEMBA is fearmongering about access being endangered by eMTBs while "purist" MTB riders are in fact causing trail closures, e.g, Los Alto Hills, CA, where the problem was excessive speed in a mixed user environment. And every eastern MA rider knows that NEMBA riders are flouting their own policies and riding on trails that they agreed, with land use managers, were prohibited trails.


Easy enough. Just allow a bunch of those ebikes mentioned in the article above on to the trails. In about a year you'll have your example.


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## Ridenomatterwhat (Sep 12, 2018)

Lemonaid said:


> Easy enough. Just allow a bunch of those ebikes mentioned in the article above on to the trails. In about a year you'll have your example.


Right, no actual examples of this happening. Just fear that it may happen. Thank you for confirming my point.

I think the pot is calling the kettle black. Here is another example of "purists" threatening trail access. It has nothing to do with the type of bike, just the bad decisions that riders sometimes make: https://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate/6388284-151/elk-cyclists-in-conflict-on-high-elevation-trail

Have great rides!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> You're right, eMTBs are something different, which is why it's wrong to lump them in with motorized vehicles.


But ok to lump them with bicycles? As a rider I get lumped with cars, trucks, hikers and horses all the time but I don't complain.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> Meanwhile, NEMBA is fearmongering about access being endangered by eMTBs


No, they're simply saying 'we're not interested in advocating for something we're not interested in'. Enough with the paranoia.

How much time have you spent in actual conversations with land managers / powers that be regarding creating and opening more bike trails? How many trail builds have you personally spearheaded? Curious as to where you came up with this idea that all of a sudden declaring 'mountain bikes have motors now, deal with it' is going to go over like anything other than a fart in church. My local trail system NEVER would have been approved if there was even a hint of allowing motors of any sort. We barely got bikes allowed, and the biggest selling point was 'non-motorized, human powered, passive recreation'. Distinguishing ourselves from motorized user groups has taken a long time and we've reaped a ton of rewards from it. Anybody that knows anything about trail creation in New England knows this to be true.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

If I lived in MA, there’s no way I’d own a emtb, a road one for sure.


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## Ridenomatterwhat (Sep 12, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> But ok to lump them with bicycles? As a rider I get lumped with cars, trucks, hikers and horses all the time but I don't complain.


Let's see. It looks like a bicycle (not a horse, not a jeep), you pedal it like a bicycle, it performs similarly to a bicycle, it is sold by bicycle shops, and many of them are made by the companies that already manufacture: Bicycles! Yep, I'd lump it in with bicycles.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that you get lumped in with "cars, trucks, hikers and horses all the time." Are you encountering cars on your favorite single track? Is someone trying to prevent you from idling for more than 5 minutes? Are you required to have windshield wipers? Are you leaving manure in the trail?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> If I lived in MA, there's no way I'd own a emtb, a road one for sure.


Eh...you could make it work. There's almost no legal motorized access to public land, but somehow we manage to get regular use out of our motos.


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## tahoebeau (May 11, 2014)

notb said:


> Lake Tahoe Nevada state park http://parks.nv.gov/forms/Spooner_backcountry_map.pdf
> 
> Not sure if upper Corral and Sidewinder allow motos in South Lake.


The only trails on that map one is allowed to ride an ebike is on the OHV trails. I said I did not know how far away it would be for me to get to a non-motorized trail that allows ebikes. There are a ton of trails that allow motorized vehicles up in my area which are a blast.... on a moto. You could ride your ebike on those, or actually have some real fun on those trails and take a moto.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> Let's see. It looks like a bicycle (not a horse, not a jeep), you pedal it like a bicycle, it performs similarly to a bicycle, it is sold by bicycle shops, and many of them are made by the companies that already manufacture: Bicycles! Yep, I'd lump it in with bicycles.


A class 2 e-bike looks like a class 1, performs similarly to a class 1, is sold in shops that sell class 1, etc. Are those therefore lumped in with bicycles too?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Ridenomatterwhat said:


> I'm not sure what you mean when you say that you get lumped in with "cars, trucks, hikers and horses all the time." Are you encountering cars on your favorite single track? Is someone trying to prevent you from idling for more than 5 minutes? Are you required to have windshield wipers? Are you leaving manure in the trail?


I ride road too and have to abide the same rules as cars do.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

These threads are just ridiculous and never change anyone's minds. 



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