# WHY WE DO NEED E-BIKES? someday YOU will too



## 2wheelfun (Jan 8, 2018)

WHY WE DO NEED E-BIKES? We were all once young and indestructible and we could do anything on our peddle bike and so help us if anyone double dog dared us to do anything stupid because we would say why not? just for proof of that and look on you tube. When we are young we say things like, when I get too old just take me out and shoot me. Then before you know it you look in the mirror and say what the hell happened and feel like rigor mortis set in. Today at 60+ my knees are shot and I looked at knee replacements and stem cell and all type of injections, seen specialist and everything out there has pros and more cons then pros? These E-bikes were made for the graying of America so that we can continue to do things that we love. These are not made for people that still have healthy bodies that can still peddle. If I could turn back the hands of time and have health and peddle the way I use to then I would and will tell any healthy individual to keep peddling because someday you too will become that person in the mirror. So don't poo poo those assist bikes for people that need them and tell those people that use them that don't need them don't be a jerk that goofs it up for others that do. I am waiting for my Haibike XDURO ALLMNT and all giddy like a kid at Christmas. Hope to see you on the trail and if you have parents or know some older person or maybe it is a person with health or disability that there is still hope to ride. Don't knock it till you tried it. Or as NIKE says JUST DO IT


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I have no problem with that logic. Hopefully there are trails to ride when I have grandkids someday.

"Pedal", btw. 

-Walt


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## 2wheelfun (Jan 8, 2018)

Time goes by faster then then any of us think. I had someone do the comparison of life to a roll of toilet paper. the closer you get to the end the faster it goes. KEEP PEDDLING


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I have health and still enjoy ripping my Levo. Not only for old dawgz! I’d ride with anyone at any pace on anything.


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## 2wheelfun (Jan 8, 2018)

When I get my new Heibike I will be happy to be able to keep up with people I am riding with and not be a hindrance of keeping others waiting for me. With bad knees it sucks big time to have to walk my bike up hills instead of spinning up. I don't care to be the fastest, I just don't want to be that old guy that is the boat anchor. We now become the ambassadors of the ebikes out there that many out there poo poo.


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## Outerlimits (Jan 6, 2018)

Had a heart attack in my 20’s, and I was fit and healthy at the time. Now in my 40’s with heart failure, with no cure. it has not stopped me, just made things a lot harder. Rode over 6000km last year alone. It’s time for a e-bike.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

I ride an ebike and a regular mountain bike. Less ebike nowadays but I would never give it up. They are both fun in a different way.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Do non-golfers feel regret if a golf course closes? Most likely not, especially if they say they have no interesting in participating. Could be the same with e-bikes. I doubt the golfers could get the baseball players or whoever to sympathize with them regarding their playing field going away.

Telling them to just try it seems futile. First, they need to find a way to get the equipment. Second, they need a viable place to practice the activity. The first step is already a big wall. If they see a second big wall after the first, that may discourage them from attempting to get over the first.

Golfing has been deemed a thing to do when you're retired. People see ebikes kind of the same way. People also see golfing as a nuisance, fearing that balls end up causing damage from people practicing in the backyards or wherever, and golf clubs being used as a weapon. People also fear ebikes being used in a disturbing/disruptive way.

Understanding all this, I think the direction of ebikes right now is fine. Just gradual introduction through a responsible community of people who already know trail etiquette is a good plan. It's like that boiling frog experiment; gradually increase exposure within the comfort zone of others sharing the same space. First impressions are important. Words are cheap. If you got a better plan than to just gradually increase exposure of ebikes to others in a non-disruptive way, let's hear it.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Varaxis said:


> Do non-golfers feel regret if a golf course closes? Most likely not, especially if they say they have no interesting in participating. Could be the same with e-bikes. I doubt the golfers could get the baseball players or whoever to sympathize with them regarding their playing field going away.
> 
> Telling them to just try it seems futile. First, they need to find a way to get the equipment. Second, they need a viable place to practice the activity. The first step is already a big wall. If they see a second big wall after the first, that may discourage them from attempting to get over the first.
> 
> ...


There is a lot of ebike hate out there. I'm optimistic though. I think the benefit of exposing more people to ebiking is a smaller barrier of entry than regular biking allowing people to enjoy the benefits without all the hard work. When I started a few years ago, like literally 2 years ago I hadn't biked in decades. Got myself an ebike and cruise the **** out of it all around my neighborhood. I remember thinking wow...I could cruise all around town and I'm not even tired or sweaty. Awesome. Gradually, one factor that got me totally hooked on MTB. I think it may have the same affect on many other people.


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

Of course there's e-bike hate. There was and still is ongoing debates about stupid stuff like wheel sizes. A lot of cyclists can't help but make it THEIR problem as to what YOU ride.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

> WHY WE DO NEED E-BIKES? someday YOU will too


Until very recently civilization has gotten along fine without them so obviously no one NEEDS them. Also I think it's presumptuous and rude to suggest that I will need one too. My 80-some y/o mother still rides a bike occasionally but not as much as she used to because she's concerned about falling, nothing to do with pedaling.

I highly doubt that the future demographic of e-bike purchasers will consist mainly of feeble old folks, I'm betting the majority will be middle aged enthusiasts just like it is now for bicycles.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

2wheelfun said:


> WHY WE DO NEED E-BIKES? ...


Humans are not very good tenants of the planet. There are few beautiful areas left on the globe where motors can't take us. Because they are less accessible, they may remain beautiful.

We don't _need_ them.

They were invented to make money by companies who capitalize on the fact the majority of humans will choose "easy" over "hard".

Proponents of e-bikes advocate they allow "access of the infirm" to an otherwise too challenging activity.

Detractors suggest, is it really a good thing everyone should have access to everything? (Sort of like, is it a good thing that every kid gets a medal just for participating?)

What happens to remote, pristine trails when cheap e-bikes with disposable batteries can be had at Wally-World? Probably the same thing that happens when ATVs get access. Trash everywhere and trail destruction.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> There is a lot of ebike hate out there. I'm optimistic though. I think the benefit of exposing more people to ebiking is a smaller barrier of entry than regular biking allowing people to enjoy the benefits without all the hard work. When I started a few years ago, like literally 2 years ago I hadn't biked in decades. Got myself an ebike and cruise the **** out of it all around my neighborhood. I remember thinking wow...I could cruise all around town and I'm not even tired or sweaty. Awesome. Gradually, one factor that got me totally hooked on MTB. I think it may have the same affect on many other people.


I remember a thread on this site asking long time mountain bikers how they got started. Almost every one of the replies (including mine) said that they started on a cheap bike. This is where I think ebikes have a challenge, a high price of entry to something someone doesn't know if they will like or not. I can't see prices for a quality ebike coming way down. I'm not really concerned about elderly or disabled ebikers; I'm more worried about guys who could be riding mountain bikes but don't want all the hard work. Again, this is fine on some trails, just not on all trails.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

I'm 55 and I have no interest in an e-bike. The self-powered aspect of riding is a primary (possibly THE primary) reason that I enjoy it. Don't assume because you want one that everyone does. And don't assume that you should be allowed to ride it anywhere a real bicycle can be ridden.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

2wheelfun said:


> When I get my new Heibike I will be happy to be able to keep up with people I am riding with and not be a hindrance of keeping others waiting for me. With bad knees it sucks big time to have to walk my bike up hills instead of spinning up. I don't care to be the fastest, I just don't want to be that old guy that is the boat anchor. We now become the ambassadors of the ebikes out there that many out there poo poo.


 Tried it, not for me, plus not legal where I ride( MA). No one needs an e bike. Helpful to some in some areas? Maybe. I prefer to PEDAl ( sp) under my own power. One still has to pedal an e assist. Legs must still work. When I'm 80 I may just be happy to do bike path coffee runs. YRMV.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Small cross section (probably 20 or so), but every e-MTB rider (except my wife; we have DIY) that I've talked to was riding an OEM bike and was a former MTB rider supplementing or replacing MTB. I see a lot people on bike paths with e-bikes, but don't know whether that will translate to a lot more e-MTB riders.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Ebikes don’t pollute or do excessive trail damage so the pristine nature motor bs is just lame. Go hug a friggin tree and get grounded from Mother Earth. I do not encourage any damage to nature or wildlife but damn, its a bike with pedal assist. Larger trail damage users out there like the natural horseback riders, wtf?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Ebikes don't pollute or do excessive trail damage so the pristine nature motor bs is just lame. Go hug a friggin tree and get grounded from Mother Earth. I do not encourage any damage to nature or wildlife but damn, its a bike with pedal assist. Larger trail damage users out there like the natural horseback riders, wtf?


 Which e bikes? The 250, or the 750, 2,000 watt ones doctored up ? The 5,000 watt e motorcycles disguised? I have to work with the laws set in my state. YRMV.


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## 2wheelfun (Jan 8, 2018)

Reading many of the responses the majority are for ASSIST e-bikes and for good reason, age, health or medical condition. Then there are a few that think the world is going to end and going to ruin the pristine forest. Notice I put ASSIST in capital letters, if you don't peddle and put in effort you don't get assist. What people have to be aware of is the class of E-bike we are talking about on government / federal land. The bikes I am talking about here are class 1 bicycles that don't have any twist grips, thumb throttles or the like. If you do see a bike out there on government / federal land that does have twist or thumb throttles out there then they are classed as 2 or 3 e-bikes and are most likely not allowed and I say let the air out of there tires. If you see a e-bike out there doing donuts spinning the rear tire it is not a class 1 bike, most class 1 e-bikes come with a max output of 350watt motor and you would have to hammer pretty hard to get it to max out at 350watts, the other thing is for a e-bike to be classified as a class 1 is a maximum assist speed of 20 MPH, if you wish to go faster then that it is all up to your strength. There are some bikes that have a max assist speed to 28 MPH and those bikes are not class 1 but fall in the class 2 or 3. There are people selling retrofit kits for bikes that have 4000watts and then I would consider that as a true motorcycle. It is up to all us mountain bikers to become better informed and be a brotherhood of mountain bikers, if there is someone that needs that little assist then let them have it so if they are riding in your group your not spending a half a day waiting for them and you all are having a great day. But if you see someone out there that has no business on a souped up e-bike being a jerk screwing it up for everyone I will look the other way as you disassemble there bike. I say next time your at your local bike shop ask to ride one, a few years ago that most likely would have not been possible since most bike shop owners that I had talked to were purest and didn't want anything to do with a e-bike until they became educated on e-bikes. It does allow us as we get older or have a medical or recover from a injury issue to continue to do what we love to do. RIDE


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

We don't need any of the bikes we talk about on this site, they're just toys. You can easily get out in nature, enjoy it on foot and get your exercise in other ways. The people who really _need_ a bike or ebike for transportation won't be riding it on singletrack trails.

That being said, bikes are hella fun, I ride them every chance I get.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

leeboh said:


> Which e bikes? The 250, or the 750, 2,000 watt ones doctored up ? The 5,000 watt e motorcycles disguised? I have to work with the laws set in my state. YRMV.


The 250w pedal assist class 1 that all the MAJOR manufacturers produce. Don't you think responsible ebike riders riding LEGAL trails will shun of these Frankenbikes in fear we'll lose privileges? I would.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

2wheelfun said:


> Reading many of the responses the majority are for ASSIST e-bikes and for good reason, age, health or medical condition. Then there are a few that think the world is going to end and going to ruin the pristine forest. Notice I put ASSIST in capital letters, if you don't peddle and put in effort you don't get assist. What people have to be aware of is the class of E-bike we are talking about on government / federal land. The bikes I am talking about here are class 1 bicycles that don't have any twist grips, thumb throttles or the like. If you do see a bike out there on government / federal land that does have twist or thumb throttles out there then they are classed as 2 or 3 e-bikes and are most likely not allowed and I say let the air out of there tires. If you see a e-bike out there doing donuts spinning the rear tire it is not a class 1 bike, most class 1 e-bikes come with a max output of 350watt motor and you would have to hammer pretty hard to get it to max out at 350watts, the other thing is for a e-bike to be classified as a class 1 is a maximum assist speed of 20 MPH, if you wish to go faster then that it is all up to your strength. There are some bikes that have a max assist speed to 28 MPH and those bikes are not class 1 but fall in the class 2 or 3. There are people selling retrofit kits for bikes that have 4000watts and then I would consider that as a true motorcycle. It is up to all us mountain bikers to become better informed and be a brotherhood of mountain bikers, if there is someone that needs that little assist then let them have it so if they are riding in your group your not spending a half a day waiting for them and you all are having a great day. But if you see someone out there that has no business on a souped up e-bike being a jerk screwing it up for everyone I will look the other way as you disassemble there bike. I say next time your at your local bike shop ask to ride one, a few years ago that most likely would have not been possible since most bike shop owners that I had talked to were purest and didn't want anything to do with a e-bike until they became educated on e-bikes. It does allow us as we get older or have a medical or recover from a injury issue to continue to do what we love to do. RIDE


You're late to the party here, please go back and read through the other threads in this forum, everyone here has full understanding of the various classes, etc.

And "pedal" dammit.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Gutch said:


> Ebikes don't pollute or do excessive trail damage so the pristine nature motor bs is just lame. Go hug a friggin tree and get grounded from Mother Earth. I do not encourage any damage to nature or wildlife but damn, its a bike with pedal assist. Larger trail damage users out there like the natural horseback riders, wtf?


With regard to what i said...

"What happens to remote, pristine trails when cheap e-bikes with disposable batteries can be had at Wally-World? Probably the same thing that happens when ATVs get access. Trash everywhere and trail destruction."

Cool it. Read that again. Try to understand the point being made.

You are being hostile over something you mistakenly thought I said.

I would also like to add I don't care either way about the e-bikes themselves. Agree that a single e-bike would likely cause no more damage than a regular bike.

What I do care about is that once e-bikes become cheaply produced, easily attainable, semi-disposable items, we run a risk of radically increasing trail use, and access to areas kept pristine due to their relative inaccessibility. People are inherently destructive. The more of them in any one place, the more destructive they become.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Question to the op, if emtbs were limited to off road omv trails only would that proclude you from opening one? And why?


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## 2wheelfun (Jan 8, 2018)

I am a lifelong bike rider and wonder what ever happened to the brotherhood of bike riders? There are some out there that are so narrow minded that they will never get old or have something that can happen to there health that can take the love of mountain biking away. There is hope "a electric assist mountain bicycle" I did not say a electric bike or electric motorcycle. I am talking about a class 1 electric assist bicycle. Last night I watched a amazing video that Haibike put together of a veteran that had his leg blown off riding a mountain bike again, how amazing is that. Wake up people and lets become a complete brotherhood and welcome advancements that let us continue what we love to do. watch this video and you should come away with a different view or you don't have a heart.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

2wheelfun said:


> I am a lifelong bike rider and wonder what ever happened to the brotherhood of bike riders? There are some out there that are so narrow minded that they will never get old or have something that can happen to there health that can take the love of mountain biking away.


If you take the time to read the plethora of posts about eBikes in this sub-forum you would see most who fear the eBike do not fear them because they are helping some older folks continue in the sport. They fear them because of how hard it was historically to get MTB access in much of the nation and how against MTB's other groups like Hikers and Horsebacker riders can be in some area's. It is fear of those very powerful groups using their influence to convince Land Managers that because a motorized bike and a non-motorized bike are hard to tell apart, ALL bikes must be banned from trails. This is a valid concern.

Please read through some of the posts on here and the Rules page to familiarize yourself with all the conversation that has already happened.

No need for this thread to be another repeat of hundreds of other threads.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

2wheelfun said:


> I am a lifelong bike rider and wonder what ever happened to the brotherhood of bike riders? There are some out there that are so narrow minded that they will never get old or have something that can happen to there health that can take the love of mountain biking away. There is hope "a electric assist mountain bicycle" I did not say a electric bike or electric motorcycle. I am talking about a class 1 electric assist bicycle. Last night I watched a amazing video that Haibike put together of a veteran that had his leg blown off riding a mountain bike again, how amazing is that. Wake up people and lets become a complete brotherhood and welcome advancements that let us continue what we love to do. watch this video and you should come away with a different view or you don't have a heart.


I don't know.....I have done several 12hr Endurance Races, and each time there have been several Wounded Warriors doing the race.....some with missing legs, some with missing arms, and not one on a an Ebike.

Also when I first began riding back in 1996, I was passed on a climb with an artificial arm and leg....dude passed me like I was standing still, and that was in the days when we only had 24 speeds.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

2wheelfun said:


> I am a lifelong bike rider and wonder what ever happened to the brotherhood of bike riders? There are some out there that are so narrow minded that they will never get old or have something that can happen to there health that can take the love of mountain biking away. There is hope "a electric assist mountain bicycle" I did not say a electric bike or electric motorcycle. I am talking about a class 1 electric assist bicycle. Last night I watched a amazing video that Haibike put together of a veteran that had his leg blown off riding a mountain bike again, how amazing is that. Wake up people and lets become a complete brotherhood and welcome advancements that let us continue what we love to do. watch this video and you should come away with a different view or you don't have a heart.


 Brotherhood? Hmmm. Bikes don't have motors. Start there. E bikes and bicycles are two really different things. Really. Clear line in the sand. Assist e bike? Any way you slice it or spin some words, it's motorized. Got an ADA HP card? No issues. Cheers. They are just not legal for the most part where I ride in MA.


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## 2wheelfun (Jan 8, 2018)

A response to mntbikej's response, I gather you are most likely 20 something years old and I guess when I was your age I also would have made a comment like that as well sorry to say. There are a lot of amazing disabled athlete riders out there that kick ass and I have also seen them, I also say that there are millions that don't have the ability to ride anymore that would love to have a chance to be able to ride once again and it is a shame that there are some out there wanting to take that away from them or limit where they can go. Through my life I have ridden with some of the best and also had some that have crashed and become parallelized and wish that they could bring back some normal to there lives. rehabilitation hospitals like Craig in Denver do amazing things for people but we also have to do our part and not exclude them from things we all love to do.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

2wheelfun said:


> A response to mntbikej's response, I gather you are most likely 20 something years old and I guess when I was your age I also would have made a comment like that as well sorry to say. There are a lot of amazing disabled athlete riders out there that kick ass and I have also seen them, I also say that there are millions that don't have the ability to ride anymore that would love to have a chance to be able to ride once again and it is a shame that there are some out there wanting to take that away from them or limit where they can go. Through my life I have ridden with some of the best and also had some that have crashed and become parallelized and wish that they could bring back some normal to there lives. rehabilitation hospitals like Craig in Denver do amazing things for people but we also have to do our part and not exclude them from things we all love to do.


 Stepping in here. Please read up on the ADA HP statues and rules regarding access and " other powered mobility" devices. And this has been covered here before. The access is already there. It depends on the kind of trail, if it has an access designation and a few other things. Also there are variations in regard to state rules and if it is federal property. Just remember that fat and old is not a HP.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

I'm saving up for one of these ^^^ so I can climb Everest with the young'ns when I am older. :thumbsup:


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

leeboh said:


> Stepping in here. Please read up on the ADA HP statues and rules regarding access and " other powered mobility" devices. And this has been covered here before. The access is already there. It depends on the kind of trail, if it has an access designation and a few other things. Also there are variations in regard to state rules and if it is federal property. Just remember that fat and old is not a HP.


+1 been said before. Motorized access for people with disabilities has been in the books for a very long time.


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## 2wheelfun (Jan 8, 2018)

To all those that don't like the idea of electric assist bikes, be careful what you say, the clock is ticking and your day will come when you will wish for a e-bike. I was once like you and felt invincible also. Has nothing to do with old and fat, it does have to do with wearing out our bodies doing what we love. One other thing, if you have done a lot of spin classes like I have, be careful of trainers out there that love to teach high load low cadence, it will blow out your knees.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

2wheelfun said:


> To all those that don't like the idea of electric assist bikes, be careful what you say, the clock is ticking and your day will come when you will wish for a e-bike.


I am closing in on 50. There will be a day I can no longer mountain bike. That's fine. I can accept that.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm 50, get my ass kicked by guys older than me all the time on rides.
My dad is 74 and still ride MTBs. 

"Need" is not even close to the right word when it comes to e-bikes. 
Disabled use is a completely separate issue and a red herring as far as any conversation regarding e-bike access goes.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> "Need" is not even close to the right word when it comes to e-bikes.


Agreed...I would replace "need" with "don't want" personally. Whether I "need" one or not.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

2wheelfun said:


> To all those that don't like the idea of electric assist bikes, be careful what you say, the clock is ticking and your day will come when you will wish for a e-bike. I was once like you and felt invincible also. Has nothing to do with old and fat, it does have to do with wearing out our bodies doing what we love. One other thing, if you have done a lot of spin classes like I have, be careful of trainers out there that love to teach high load low cadence, it will blow out your knees.


 54 here, " I'm not dead yet" Spin class? That's not biking. That's just gym rat stuff. E bike? Maybe for the commute. Yesterday saw 28 F for 2hrs/17 miles with 40 mm studded tires. Plus " some" headwind and crazy, snow, ice mixed surface riding. So when I turn 60 I just have to sit on the couch and watch golden girls reruns? Not. Last year I did a VT loaded bike packing ride, 240 miles in 4 days, the karate monkey weighed 60 or so pounds, way too many hills to count. Spin, don't mash. Word for the wise. Does anyone expect to be in the same physical shape at 60 vs 30? And to be able to do the exact same stuff? Not. Despite your " need" and rosy outlook, many areas have real issues with trail access and motorized vehicles. Especially on the crowded coasts. Hell, here in MA we are still fighting for mt bike access, let alone all the baggage that e bikes would bring. At some point I might not be able to do really intense mt biking. I would be happy to hop on my cruiser bike for bike path coffee runs ogling the joggers.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> I'm 50, get my ass kicked by guys older than me all the time on rides.
> My dad is 74 and still ride MTBs.
> 
> "Need" is not even close to the right word when it comes to e-bikes.
> Disabled use is a completely separate issue and a red herring as far as any conversation regarding e-bike access goes.


 You forgot the part where Dad "rides with chainsaw" on his mt bike.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

leeboh said:


> Just remember that fat and old is not a HP.


I have to spread reputation around before giving it to you again, but this is spot on.

Since I actually live and recreate in a place in the US where there is designated Wilderness area (no bike access) and authentic wild USFS & BLM areas, I'm sensitive to the problems of managing such areas. At least in part (speaking with USFS officials) the management plans for those areas are dependent upon measured or estimated human loads on trails and roads. I believe allowing electric motorbikes on "non-motorized" trails would have significant impact on semi-wild areas. I come from the position that there are places that should remain at least semi-wild, even if that means excluding the aged and infirm (and lazy).


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> You forgot the part where Dad "rides with chainsaw" on his mt bike.


Yeah, he's a piece of work alright.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

2wheelfun said:


> A response to mntbikej's response, I gather you are most likely 20 something years old and I guess when I was your age I also would have made a comment like that as well sorry to say. There are a lot of amazing disabled athlete riders out there that kick ass and I have also seen them, I also say that there are millions that don't have the ability to ride anymore that would love to have a chance to be able to ride once again and it is a shame that there are some out there wanting to take that away from them or limit where they can go. Through my life I have ridden with some of the best and also had some that have crashed and become parallelized and wish that they could bring back some normal to there lives. rehabilitation hospitals like Craig in Denver do amazing things for people but we also have to do our part and not exclude them from things we all love to do.


Not even close......late 40's, but that doesn't matter. I'm in better shape now than I was when I was in my 20's.

As others have said.....ADA rules have been in place for a very long time(I know my '96 California Building Code had ADA requirements), we haven't been excluding them of that(including your disabled veterans). My point is that "need" is a strong word. Being old, being out of shape, not being able to keep up with your buddies....these are not valid reasons to bring up ADA.


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## niknas (Apr 25, 2012)

The ebike haters should check out the poll in the over 50 forum. Dramatic drop off after 65 age group. I am 73 and still riding a “mountain bike “, I also ride a pedal assist mountain bike. The ebike is the only way I can keep up with my “younger “ friends (50-60s). I ride my Solo mostly by myself, old and slow. I am not about to give up single tracks yet. Yes I do poach trails, but I am not about to roll over and die yet.


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## 2wheelfun (Jan 8, 2018)

niknas said:


> The ebike haters should check out the poll in the over 50 forum. Dramatic drop off after 65 age group. I am 73 and still riding a "mountain bike ", I also ride a pedal assist mountain bike. The ebike is the only way I can keep up with my "younger " friends (50-60s). I ride my Solo mostly by myself, old and slow. I am not about to give up single tracks yet. Yes I do poach trails, but I am not about to roll over and die yet.


Way to go Niknas, they can't bury you if you keep moving, keep riding. I rode my Haibike for the 1st time yesterday doing a shakedown ride and finding what pace I really liked and found 11-13mph to be a pleasant pace spinning at 60 cadence. Had mode set for the most part at ECO and bumping to sport on the climbs wanting to build up my leg muscles again from not riding due to climbs leading to knee pain and I use to be able to do century rides for days. These e-bikes are totally silent and was a very pleasant experience. I can see these bikes giving hope to people that use to love riding but had to give up riding due to health. I am looking to go for a ride this afternoon and shoot for 20 mile ride.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

A 73 year old mtn biker, born in 1944. Interesting... I'm super curious, with lots of questions, but afraid they're too personal, considering what happened during that time, namely WW2, and all the included events such as the Soviet war crimes. I don't want to judge, but knowing the time that 65+ year old mtn bikers were born in can give clues as to why there's a sharp cut off, including accelerated health deterioration due to certain life choices (e.g. was super cool to smoke). You'd likely be in your mid-40s before seeing production level mtn bikes. Are you retired, or are you still employed (inc self-employed)?

Interesting learning stuff like this: Playing football makes 70-year-olds' bones young again | ScienceNordic


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

2wheelfun said:


> Way to go Niknas, they can't bury you if you keep moving, keep riding. I rode my Haibike for the 1st time yesterday doing a shakedown ride and finding what pace I really liked and found 11-13mph to be a pleasant pace spinning at 60 cadence. Had mode set for the most part at ECO and bumping to sport on the climbs wanting to build up my leg muscles again from not riding due to climbs leading to knee pain and I use to be able to do century rides for days. These e-bikes are totally silent and was a very pleasant experience. I can see these bikes giving hope to people that use to love riding but had to give up riding due to health. I am looking to go for a ride this afternoon and shoot for 20 mile ride.


Hello Mr. 2wheelfun, Glad you're enjoying your bike and I hope it improves your life. As mentioned by myself and others I think the only issue anyone has with your thread is the cap letters shouting "NEED" and "YOU will too!!" Sounds ominous, like a threat.

I'm an optimist and I genuinely hope I can ride it out on my own 2 feet, time will tell.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Next time y’all purists go ride your pristine nature trails on your mtb, come home later, and take a dump, you can thank a logger. And that was done with motorized big ass machines and smoke blowing chainsaws. Can’t have it both ways. Ebike riders are the least of your worries, if your taking the “nature” argument.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Next time y'all purists go ride your pristine nature trails on your mtb, come home later, and take a dump, you can thank a logger. And that was done with motorized big ass machines and smoke blowing chainsaws. Can't have it both ways. Ebike riders are the least of your worries, if your taking the "nature" argument.


Why so surly?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Love how bicycle riders are now "haters" and "purists" just for riding bicycles it seems.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I’m surly because I’ve dealt with all types of Trail users and just nature people my entire life being in the Forest Products industry and also being a large land owner. Typically everyone that has no skin in the game, always wants to call the shots and tell you how things should be. 
I also can’t stand narrow minded individuals from both sides. Ever operate an enduro road bike down the street and wave at a Harley guy and no mutual respect wave back? That’s what we have here. It’s un necessary and bs. The 2 sports obviously have a lot in common and can co exist properly with some work. I pay ALL the taxes on my land, yet allow EVERY Trail user to enjoy it and ask for zero in return. I guess I’m just tired of all the judgemental thoughts about “how things should be.”


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

chazpat said:


> Love how bicycle riders are now "haters" and "purists" just for riding bicycles it seems.


You are if you can't co exist with ebike riders. Have they harmed you in any way?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> I'm surly because I've dealt with all types of Trail users and just nature people my entire life being in the Forest Products industry and also being a large land owner. Typically everyone that has no skin in the game, always wants to call the shots and tell you how things should be.
> I also can't stand narrow minded individuals from both sides. Ever operate an enduro road bike down the street and wave at a Harley guy and no mutual respect wave back? That's what we have here. It's un necessary and bs. The 2 sports obviously have a lot in common and can co exist properly with some work. I pay ALL the taxes on my land, yet allow EVERY Trail user to enjoy it and ask for zero in return. I guess I'm just tired of all the judgemental thoughts about "how things should be."


I've found that a couple hours on a bicycle will cure any foul mood. Also mitigates the urge to use the caps button.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> You are if you can't co exist with ebike riders. Have they harmed you in any way?


Have you read my posts? Just because I don't believe they are bicycles and that they should be allowed on 100% of mtb legal trails, I'm a hater and a purist? Talk about narrow minded.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> Have you read my posts? Just because I don't believe they are bicycles and that they should be allowed on 100% of mtb legal trails, I'm a hater and a purist? Talk about narrow minded.


Seriously.

Anybody whining about"'haters" or "purists" in this thread, please go back and re-read it then post specific examples of said "hate" so we can see what you're referring to.
But simply not agreeing with the sentiment that everyone is going to "need" an e-bike is not "hate", so please save the misplaced angst.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> I've found that a couple hours on a bicycle will cure any foul mood. Also mitigates the urge to use the caps button.


A couple hrs on a bike cures a lot of things 👍


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

chazpat said:


> Have you read my posts? Just because I don't believe they are bicycles and that they should be allowed on 100% of mtb legal trails, I'm a hater and a purist? Talk about narrow minded.


Yeah I've read your posts. I also agree they shouldn't be allowed on every trail. Us lazy, fat, old and slow littering bunch of ebike riders must be shunned, for a crime we have yet to commit? Would you ride with me if I was on my Levo on a class 1 legal trail?


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

I think the issue is more about the process of doing things with a similar goal in mind, but less work as an incentive. People argue if there's more benefit, or less detriment, doing things with more manual effort.

Since you brought up loggers, that brings up the process of logging in peculiar swaths that clear an area, rather than in a manner that is more sustainable. They face challenges such as falling branches and trees posing safety risks, the need of pathways to get heavy machinery in, and the need of pathways to efficiently haul timber out to be processed. Those might be stronger incentive to do things in a "lazier" manner that disrupts ecosystems, rather than with a process that protects the ecosystem from problems associated with overgrowth (e.g. forest fires, disease, pests, lack of biodiversity, stunted growth due to crowding).

What other incentive is there for ebikes on trails? It's better to address these, than to redirect negativity elsewhere. By responding to negativity with more negativity of your own, all you're doing is making the discussion increasingly toxic. I personally can't think of any incentive for trail use, other than personal ones. I don't haul extra stuff to act as medic or for impromptu trail maintenance, other than the basics that most vets carry. On the trails, it's simply a trade off of making climbs less discouraging, in exchange for having a heavy (less agile) bike. I gain more opportunity to go places which generally weren't very rewarding considering the effort. I'm actually curious about OHV legal trails, and if they can be fun on a pedal-bike.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Gutch said:


> Next time y'all purists go ride your pristine nature trails on your mtb, come home later, and take a dump, you can thank a logger. And that was done with motorized big ass machines and smoke blowing chainsaws. Can't have it both ways. Ebike riders are the least of your worries, if your taking the "nature" argument.


You seem upset by your incorrect notion that some posters who are arguing against e-bikes are some sort of naive, deluded, tree-hugging, tulips.

Perhaps seeing the sides in black and white, or, radicalizing the "other side" beyond truth might be a convenient way for you to dismiss another's point.

Of course there is a place for chainsaws (got a few myself) and off road motors (got a few myself), and even guns (I hunt) in the woods.

But there is also a small piece of the country left that because it is relatively inaccessible to the masses, it has kept its primitive appeal. E-bikes, when they can be had cheaply at Wally World in a few years, can endanger those inaccessible areas by making them accessible to the masses. For that reason some are not a fan of the e-bike.

Oh, and BTW I've had logger friends, use wood products, am close with the local saw mill owner, hunt logged land, and just today skied old skidder trails made by loggers, and was thankful for it.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Miker J said:


> You seem upset by your incorrect notion that some posters who are arguing against e-bikes are some sort of naive, deluded, tree-hugging, tulips.
> 
> Perhaps seeing the sides in black and white, or, radicalizing the "other side" beyond truth might be a convenient way for you to dismiss another's point.
> 
> ...


I hugged and dropped my share of trees and have probably spent more time in nature than anyone on this forum. 
Your "invasion of the cheap ebike's taking over" is comical. Do you think that many newbs will enter the sport out of the blue or do you think people will convert? Regardless, if they are ridden on any legal trails and you still have issues with them, well your the guy on the Harley that never waves.


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## niknas (Apr 25, 2012)

Varaxis said:


> A 73 year old mtn biker, born in 1944. Interesting... I'm super curious, with lots of questions, but afraid they're too personal, considering what happened during that time, namely WW2, and all the included events such as the Soviet war crimes. I don't want to judge, but knowing the time that 65+ year old mtn bikers were born in can give clues as to why there's a sharp cut off, including accelerated health deterioration due to certain life choices (e.g. was super cool to smoke). You'd likely be in your mid-40s before seeing production level mtn bikes. Are you retired, or are you still employed (inc self-employed)?
> 
> Interesting learning stuff like this: Playing football makes 70-year-olds' bones young again | ScienceNordic


Yes born before the A bomb was dropped. My first Mtbike was a crappy Diamond Back when I was ripe old 42 years of age. Been through a couple dozen different mtbikes over the years. Lived in a ski town (Park City) for 27 years. Moab was only a 4 hour drive away. I was lucky that I was able to enjoy those towns before they became popular. There were no rules then, we just rode. I retired to the Hood River area and spend my winters in Baja. Skied both downhill and backcountry, dirtbiked, windsurfer, and now kiteboarding. Never smoked, drank too beer and still love my tequila.

My body is shot, two knee replacements, fused ankle, slipped disk, arthritis in hands, shoulders, wrists. On the other hand my vitals are good.

Single track is a passion for me and I intend to keep at it as long as I can spin my legs, yes pedal even with a little help from Edison.


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## DirtyHun (Jan 9, 2011)

You, sir, are an inspiration. Cheers!


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Gutch said:


> ...Your "invasion of the cheap ebike's taking over" is comical... Do you think that many newbs will enter the sport out of the blue or do you think people will convert? Regardless, if they are ridden on any legal trails and you still have issues with them, well your the guy on the Harley that never waves.


Instead of respectfully discussing reasonable opinions on the issue you seem to want to make this more of a personal thing. Well, if that is the case...

I hope I made your day better with a nice laugh with my comedy.

With any luck it will cheer you up a bit.

Best case, you are right that in a few years there won't be masses invading on cheap e-bikes. We'll be better off if I'm wrong, and that will be a good thing.

The e-bike itself. No, I don't have an issue with them. If my friend showed up to a ride on one, you bet I'd give him some good natured teasing, but I'm certain I'd throw a leg over it myself.

Yeah. I do think it will get more newbs into the sport. In my particular neck of the woods, we don't have enough riders to support the cause, so locally they could end up being a plus. But, they might negatively effect things - you know, too many careless folks out on the trails. Perhaps this will come off wrong, but virtually all the litter on the my local trails is generated by the guys on motors. Labatt's Blue cans are left in long line along the double track after almost every outing these guys make. The guys pedaling bikes pick them up.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Yeah I've read your posts. I also agree they shouldn't be allowed on every trail. Us lazy, fat, old and slow littering bunch of ebike riders must be shunned, for a crime we have yet to commit? Would you ride with me if I was on my Levo on a class 1 legal trail?


Yeah, sure, as long as you're not in one of your grumpy moods.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Just how many people can afford these $3500+ things anyways? Fear the invasion of the shitty budget ones, ridden by irresponsible immature people.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

2wheelfun said:


> To all those that don't like the idea of electric assist bikes, be careful what you say, the clock is ticking and your day will come when you will wish for a e-bike. I was once like you and felt invincible also. Has nothing to do with old and fat, it does have to do with wearing out our bodies doing what we love. One other thing, if you have done a lot of spin classes like I have, be careful of trainers out there that love to teach high load low cadence, it will blow out your knees.


Aging out is inevitable, e-motorbikes aren't.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Miker J said:


> Instead of respectfully discussing reasonable opinions on the issue you seem to want to make this more of a personal thing. Well, if that is the case...
> 
> I hope I made your day better with a nice laugh with my comedy.
> 
> ...


My apologies if you thought I was making this personal, I don't know you, but if you enjoy riding mtbs then I'm sure you're ok. And I don't drink Labatts and can't stand litter anywhere. I'm more PBR or Bud Light.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

chazpat said:


> Yeah, sure, as long as you're not in one of your grumpy moods.


I'm never grumpy when I'm riding anything. ?


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## honey.badger (Jan 15, 2018)

So true...


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## honey.badger (Jan 15, 2018)

EricTheDood said:


> Of course there's e-bike hate. There was and still is ongoing debates about stupid stuff like wheel sizes. A lot of cyclists can't help but make it THEIR problem as to what YOU ride.


So true....


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## honey.badger (Jan 15, 2018)

Just wait until you are 75 years old and couch bound...you opinion may change!


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## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

honey.badger said:


> Just wait until you are 75 years old and couch bound...you opinion may change!


I hope I have the good sense to trigger my signal beacon so the mother ship can beam me up. If I can't pedal, I don't belong here.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

DeadGrandpa said:


> I hope I have the good sense to trigger my signal beacon so the mother ship can beam me up. If I can't pedal, I don't belong here.


So true...


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## Xaero (Mar 18, 2006)

If i'm too old to a pedal regular bike, i'm probably too old to pick myself up when i crash.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Age doesn't dictate the need for an ebike. It may make things easier, yes. Plenty of elderly folks pedaling about unassisted.


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