# Whats the advantage to exposed cables?



## quietcornerrider (Jun 6, 2009)

Is there a reason cable housings are cut in the middle, exposing the shifting cables? I can only assume that friction is the main culprit for doing this. 

Is there a reason why I can't keep the housing whole, all the way back to the rear derailleur, and have the housing for the front derailleur end just a few inches above the derailleur?

Will it interfere with shifting? Gunk up easier? Should I use a certain housing, or cable?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

No, many downhill and custom bikes from wetter climes use full length housing, so go for it.

Just pick a nice, low friction (yes, and compressionless....although the standard Shimano outers these days are virtually compressionless, and it's the compression that causes the friction) cable set, preferably with PTFE coated cables AND liner.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Compression*

The more housing you've got, the more compression problems you have, and the more you have to futz with the shifting. There are some compressionless housing systems that eliminate the problem, look into those.

-Walt


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

The ends of the housing where the ferrules are is the main source of friction. It's more about compression. Full housing keeps the gunk out.


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## quietcornerrider (Jun 6, 2009)

So what about the Gore systems? I took a quick look after I posted, and they seem to be respected.

Walt, any brands off the top of your head that are compressionless?


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

The exposed cables along the frame and stays facilitates lubing cables and reduce a bit of weight.

I prefer using Shimano or Quality brand continuous cable housing, without exposed cables, and without lube for eliminating maintenance between my normal yearly, after wet season, replacement interval. 

Also machine smooth finished cable reduces friction and housing wear rate, continuous or exposed. Teflon coated cables and/or housing may have some lighter shift action at first, but after break in time, after one or two rides, no real noticeable difference in feel or durability compared to standard housing with machine finish cables in my experience.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Nokon*

I think the Nokon is compressionless, and I know there are some kevlar housing systems that claim to be as well. Can't recall any names off the top of my head, but a little web searching should turn them up.

I think the Gore system is enough of a PITA that it's not worth it, but that's just me. I live in CO, it doesn't really rain here. Random generic cables and housing last practically indefinitely in this environment.

-Walt



quietcornerrider said:


> So what about the Gore systems? I took a quick look after I posted, and they seem to be respected.
> 
> Walt, any brands off the top of your head that are compressionless?


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## quietcornerrider (Jun 6, 2009)

Unfortunately, it rains up here in the northeast, causes eternal mud, and gets pretty gunky. Will investigate Nokon.

Now, where to get some nice cable guides to bond to a carbon frame? Everyone still a fan of Paragon Machine Works?


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## quietcornerrider (Jun 6, 2009)

Just found these

Jagwire Ripcord
Kevlar reinforced compressionless linear housing
L3 = Continuous Teflon lubricated inner liner
Coating is Lead-free

I know this might seem like it belongs in in another section, but this thread was originally started to learn about where to bond cable stops on a carbon MTB frame, if using a sealed cables. So I apologize if it seems to have gotten slightly off topic.

<edit>Actually, after reading my original post, I forgot to include that part of the question. It SHOULD have asked about cable guide placement and exposed cables. My fault.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Compressionless bicycle housing? Ha, that's a lie. It doesn't really matter anyway. Shifting will be fine using SP40 and proper setup regardless of the minute amount of compression in the system.

Full length housing is really bad. It works just fine untill you need to service the line in the feild, then you are screwed. I make sure to have only one break in each cable run. This way I can do all kinds of service without screwing everything up.

One of the biggest issues that I see with broke housing runs is that the break is placed in one of the filthiest parts of the bike, the stays. I break my lines on the top of the top tube, the cleanest part of the bike. This works extremely well in the worst of conditions.


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## nogod (May 30, 2009)

lol i want hydraulic shifters!!


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

nogod said:


> lol i want hydraulic shifters!!


Ha! You and me both.

I run full housing on the FS and like it. It's all XTR w/ the Jagwire Ripcords and it shifts as good as anything I've ever had. They are going on two years old right now because shifting flat hasn't degraded like it did with split cables.

That said, the bike still has less than 1k miles on it in two years since I ride the SS most of the time. But the when I do ride the FS, it's typically much harsher conditions that the SS sees.

I was never a fan of full cables until the FS required it. I like them now.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

I don't recall ever having a problem running full housing and I've certainly never had to repair it "in the field". Maybe I've just been lucky.

Gore is good stuff if you take the time to set it up properly. I've had the same Gore cable set on a bike for a decade with no issues whatsoever. The newer system is slightly different and more "idiot proof" but I don't like it as much as the old way. Take your time, do it right and it will serve you well.


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## quietcornerrider (Jun 6, 2009)

So why such a large difference in housing lengths between Gore, Jagwire, and Aztec Powerlines? Jagwire and Aztec are 1800 mm, and Gores are 2500. Jagwire and Aztec just assume you'll have split housing?

And to keep this on topic in the framebuilding section, where can I get some nice simple cable guides to bond to my carbon frame?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

quietcornerrider said:


> And to keep this on topic in the framebuilding section, where can I get some nice simple cable guides to bond to my carbon frame?


Make some.


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## quietcornerrider (Jun 6, 2009)

From what pray tell? I am no machinist.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

quietcornerrider said:


> So what about the Gore systems? I took a quick look after I posted, and they seem to be respected.
> 
> Walt, any brands off the top of your head that are compressionless?


Housing compression use to be a big issues 15-20 years ago. That is no longer the case. You can use most any decent housing full length without issues and it generally works better than interrupted housing. As Schmucker said, it is the ends of the housing where the most friction occurs.

Full length housing also gives you most of the benefits of Gore without the setup hassles or expense.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

quietcornerrider said:


> So why such a large difference in housing lengths between Gore, Jagwire, and Aztec Powerlines? Jagwire and Aztec are 1800 mm, and Gores are 2500. Jagwire and Aztec just assume you'll have split housing?
> 
> And to keep this on topic in the framebuilding section, where can I get some nice simple cable guides to bond to my carbon frame?


Zip ties. Somebody posted pics (could not find it) using zip ties and a short piece of vinyl tubing for a clean, simple guide.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Full length is hoakey. Maybe for the back half from the st junction down to the rd and rear brake. The 4mm Shimano housings with the 'cable condom' rubber deals work really well at keeping out contaminants.

Nokon is cool for a bit, but the segments do get dirt buildup in between them, and the Al also corrodes, causing further buildup, and a loss in flex (lateral).

Hard to beat good old Shimano/QBP housing, quality stainless cables, well thought out routing, and properly installed (length and ends) housing.

A quick servicing of the housings, manually push rear der to low gear slacken the cable at the lever in high gear, pull from housing/cable from slotted stops, whipe cable clean, lube, slide housing back on.. takes 2 seconds, not possible with full length. For cable brakes, undo at lever, all else the same.

-Schmitty-


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

pvd said:


> Shifting will be fine using SP40 and proper setup regardless of the minute amount of compression in the system.


And using Shimano SP41 (XTR/DA) is even better! SP41 comes pregreased and shouldn't need any in-the-field maintenance.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Nokon? Are you guys kidding? That stuff is total garbage.

http://www.nokon.de/html/english/intro.html

IRD tried this a while back. It didn't work then and I wouldn't trust it now.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

pvd said:


> Nokon? Are you guys kidding? That stuff is total garbage.
> 
> http://www.nokon.de/html/english/intro.html
> 
> IRD tried this a while back. It didn't work then and I wouldn't trust it now.


IRD had their version until Nokon enforced their patent.

I like it for brakes but have had issues with it for the RD. could not get rid of the ghost shifting until I swapped to full length SIS housing.


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## ted wojcik (Mar 12, 2006)

The problem with Nokon style cable is that the inner part doesn't compress. but the outer sheath stretches and they turn to crap pretty quickly. What happens to S.I.S cable housing depends on the ferrules. Most ferrules have a concave interior end and constant pressure causes the longitudinal wire strands to bend inward at the ends pinching on the inner wire, or in the case of lined cables, would tear the liner. Machined ferrules will help any cable system. I am a believer in "more housing means more friction". Many years ago, I was involved with some research on which cable routing system had the lowest friction. SRAM derailleurs had weak return springs and a high friction cable routing caused shifting headaches. Down tube routing in conjunction with a Torlon B.B. guide offered the lowest cable friction and because the ends of the cable housing face downward, would self-drain and stay clean longer than a routing with an open rear derailleur housing facing up the chainstay. Crap from the rear wheel was thrown onto the open cable and would run down into the housing and increase friction. An interesting product grew out of this project called the Nightcrawler. It helped pull the inner wire back to the rear derailleur to reduce the influence of cable systems with a bit more friction.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

ted wojcik said:


> The problem with Nokon style cable is that the inner part doesn't compress. but the outer sheath stretches and they turn to crap pretty quickly. What happens to S.I.S cable housing depends on the ferrules. Most ferrules have a concave interior end and constant pressure causes the longitudinal wire strands to bend inward at the ends pinching on the inner wire, or in the case of lined cables, would tear the liner. Machined ferrules will help any cable system. I am a believer in "more housing means more friction". Many years ago, I was involved with some research on which cable routing system had the lowest friction. SRAM derailleurs had weak return springs and a high friction cable routing caused shifting headaches. Down tube routing in conjunction with a Torlon B.B. guide offered the lowest cable friction and because the ends of the cable housing face downward, would self-drain and stay clean longer than a routing with an open rear derailleur housing facing up the chainstay. Crap from the rear wheel was thrown onto the open cable and would run down into the housing and increase friction. An interesting product grew out of this project called the Nightcrawler. It helped pull the inner wire back to the rear derailleur to reduce the influence of cable systems with a bit more friction.


Ted, this is a little off-topic, but I suppose when a cable housing is cut, the cut should occur when the housing is bent as close to the same shape it will be in once installed huh? Or that's a portion of what I'm taking away from this.


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## dinoadventures (May 2, 2008)

nogod said:


> lol i want hydraulic shifters!!


Sure. Got $2k?

http://www.light-bikes.de/eng/2007/03/02/5rot-hydraulic-shifting/


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## ted wojcik (Mar 12, 2006)

That would make sense to me, it would be best to have the ends of the housing square and perpendicular to the inner wire before installing the ferrule. My son is a mechanical engineer and we just had a discussion on why don't we see the ends of the wires of the S.I.S. housing grow in length on the inner radius of the bend and shrink on the outer radius. There must be some change in the dimension of the plastic sheath and some elongation and compression of the wire strands of the housing, All of this would indicate that our housing maintains less than ideal shape during set up and use. I don't think hydraulics is the answer, many can't bleed there own brakes yet.


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## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

Ted, I believe the reason you don't see the inner wires "lengthen" and the outer wires "shrink" is because they each do so evenly. SIS cable is composed of wires arranged longitudinally in a helix with a 10cm period. Therefore, for radii above a certain length, the inner wires will be both on the ID and OD, and hence all should change their relative "length" equally. If they were not arranged in this helical pattern, then they would indeed change "length" as the cable flexed. 

Because SIS cables transit information via displacement and not force (like brake cables), the cable construction is strong enough.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Linnaeus said:


> Therefore, for radii above a certain length, the inner wires will be both on the ID and OD, and hence all should change their relative "length" equally. If they were not arranged in this helical pattern, then they would indeed change "length" as the cable flexed.


Yup. This is similar to how flexible shafts function. Although they use several layers of opposing helixes to provide a ridgid couple. The principle is similar in compression as in torque.

When I'm doing really nice builds, I make sure to belt sand the ends of all the housings square to provide as much purchase and support as possible. Makes everything work better and longer.


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## nogod (May 30, 2009)

dinoadventures said:


> Sure. Got $2k?
> 
> http://www.light-bikes.de/eng/2007/03/02/5rot-hydraulic-shifting/


nope well at least not for shifters


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## nogod (May 30, 2009)

has anyone tried just Teflon tubing for housing?
http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts-kws/alpha-wire-company-solid-tubing-sleeving


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

nogod said:


> lol i want hydraulic shifters!!


I have Pneumatic shifters, work like a charm


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

X.9 derailleur, a gripshifter, and some cheap jagwire full length housing have been only needed to be fussed with once on my mtb for almost 2 years now. The one time i had a problem was because the bushing doohickey on the cable broke off inside the shifter. That means ~500 miles of muddy trails and ~5k of singletrack without having to clean out housings, tear crap apart and lube it, figure out which liner is binding or which housing cut got rusty, or even adjust cable tension. I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between my rather worn cable/housing and a fresh interrupted setup. 

Maybe theory says that full length housing is inferior, but i don't care, it's bombproof so far as i can tell.


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## quietcornerrider (Jun 6, 2009)

OK, so lets pretend this is going to be a "production" build, and the customer wants full length derailleur housing, and hydraulic brakes. 

Bonding those plastic problem savers with a zip tie seems more than adequate. Anyone see this as a problem? Or should I get some nicer metal ones?

I try to put myself in someone else's shoes, and see what I would think if I walked up to a bike with zip ties, and in this one instance, I have no opinion. I wouldn't give a rat's ass of they were held on by bailing twine, so long as they held.

Opinions?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

What's your definition of a 'production' build?

If a customer came to me wanting this, I'd use these and just drill them out, unless they wanted something else specific.










Brake lines I'd use the regular zip-tie cradles.


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## smdubovsky (Apr 27, 2007)

I run full length cables. Zero maint ever. I like the M shaped stainless Pcaenti hydro guides for everything. They look clean and uncluttered. Used two side by side under the TT to hold 3 cables. Will probably make my own next time for the three to hide the middle zip tie a little better.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Linnaeus said:


> Ted, I believe the reason you don't see the inner wires "lengthen" and the outer wires "shrink" is because they each do so evenly. SIS cable is composed of wires arranged longitudinally in a helix with a 10cm period. Therefore, for radii above a certain length, the inner wires will be both on the ID and OD, and hence all should change their relative "length" equally. If they were not arranged in this helical pattern, then they would indeed change "length" as the cable flexed.
> 
> Because SIS cables transit information via displacement and not force (like brake cables), the cable construction is strong enough.


Ah hah! That makes a lot more sense. Still, bending then cutting can't hurt though I've never had problems without doing it.


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## ted wojcik (Mar 12, 2006)

*So right you are*

My son and I cut the vinyl from some S.I.S. housing and found that there is a twist in the wire casing. I never knew that. Thanks for the heads up I still would use machined ferrules. As far as whether I would build my frames for segmented or uninterrupted cable runs, I let my customer decide.


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## quietcornerrider (Jun 6, 2009)

Ok, I get the idea. Found these:










I like these....Very clean, steel, would look good against raw carbon, cheap, and zip tie. I love 'em.


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## quietcornerrider (Jun 6, 2009)

Like I said, my frames will be carbon fiber, and II plan on leaving a raw carbon look for most of the frames, so no brazing. All the small accessories will be bonded with epoxy.

When you paint the frame, or send it off to be painted, wouldn't you use a plug in the the zip tie channel to ensure no paint gets underneath? I know it would be a small plug,


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

quietcornerrider said:


> Ok, I get the idea. Found these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One minor issue with those is if you're brazing them on it's real easy to over fill the zip tie channel with just enough filler where a small zip tie won't go through. It doesn't take much either. Make sure you check that you can get a zip tie through there before you paint the bike. You can have the same problem with them with powder coat paint where the PC builds up enough that it won't allow the zip tie through. I've taken to holding them in a vise and running a small end mill through the channel to deepen it and don't care if it pops through the cable saddle - consider it a speed hole.

I only run full housing on my MTB's anymore. No maintenance is ever needed since you're not giving the muck all the pathways into the housing and friction with modern housing & cables is not a problem even on drop bar bikes. I like DT routing routing only and like Ted talks about a few posts up, if you route it right, gravity keeps the muck & water out.



















Collectively over 2,500 miles of MTB'ing and no cable issues:


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Another thing to watch out for...*

Keep in mind that if your paint/powdercoat guys aren't *fastidious* about blasting under these (either the paragon ones or the Pacentis) they'll leave flux (if you're silver brazing them) and it'll bubble like crazy when the paint/powder gets baked. Not cool, a nice way to ruin a powdercoat. So either soak 'em, figure out some way to clean the flux another way, or make sure your paint guys are on top of it.

-Walt



DWF said:


> One minor issue with those is if you're brazing them on it's real easy to over fill the zip tie channel with just enough filler where a small zip tie won't go through. It doesn't take much either. Make sure you check that you can get a zip tie through there before you paint the bike. You can have the same problem with them with powder coat paint where the PC builds up enough that it won't allow the zip tie through. I've taken to holding them in a vise and running a small end mill through the channel to deepen it and don't care if it pops through the cable saddle - consider it a speed hole.


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## D.F.L. (Jan 3, 2004)

Did anybody notice that full housing either doesn't work or works fantastically, according to this thread?

(it works perfectly and people LOVE the lack of maintenance)


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## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

Perhaps someone who supplies a team could do an experiment by randomly assigning half the team to full length housing, and the other half to exposed cables. Run them that way for a season or two and look at the primary end points of derailleur adjustment and cable/housing servicing. 

I imagine Shimano has conducted testing of it's own, although I wouldn't know where to look for the data (if it's even published).


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Linnaeus said:


> Perhaps someone who supplies a team could do an experiment by randomly assigning half the team to full length housing, and the other half to exposed cables. Run them that way for a season or two and look at the primary end points of derailleur adjustment and cable/housing servicing.
> 
> I imagine Shimano has conducted testing of it's own, although I wouldn't know where to look for the data (if it's even published).


I don't see the point, full length housing is such a major drastic awesome difference, the only person who would doubt the improvement is someone who has never tried it for a season.


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## quietcornerrider (Jun 6, 2009)

I just want to make sure that if I supply the things to someone, they won't come back *****ing, thats all.


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