# What can be compromised? Tall rider question



## Tytlynz (Apr 29, 2015)

I had the opportunity to test a 2022 SJ comp in S6. Really nice ride. But, and there is always a but, I had some reservations. I am 6’7” 275 with 36.5 inseam and 37.5 arms measured. I could not feel comfy seated. I do not know if this is due to STA or just the geo in general. I am coming off a 2014 CDale Trail SL jumbo with a STA of 72 or so degrees. The reach seemed fine but the bar height was low. To the point I felt it an effort to crane my neck to see in front of me. 

But there are few choices for someone with my size and thought there might be tweaks I could make. 60 mm 13 degree rise stem would raise the grips about 15 mm without changing the reach. Hope has a 20 degree 50 mm stem that according to the calculator would leave the bars in the same place but raise them almost 3 cms. I would have to get new bars as the clamp diameter is 31.8 and the current bars are 35. I did not bring my WTB saddle which is a bit wider and my sit bones like it.

Question is can this be tweaked with a compromise to custom fit or is it just too small?

Really wanted the Al Hightower in XXL as a friend has a cc version that doesn’t seem as much of compromise though the feel is not as in the bike as the SJ. My terrain is in flyover country with allot of pedaling on flat and punchy up and downs so a big bike is not really needed. My friend travels to WV and NC so he got a burlier bike though he is only 6’4” and 220. He even complains about too much bike around here.

I appreciate any thoughts.


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## abeckstead (Feb 29, 2012)

If you rode a friends XXL Hightower and liked it… why aren’t you looking at a Tallboy? I’m 6’4” with a 38” inseam  and my XXL Tallboy fits great. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tytlynz (Apr 29, 2015)

they don’t make Al in xxl. The carbon is too pricey when you can find one.


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

I agree with abecksead. I'm 6' and own a Tallboy XL. With new lower-slung geometry of the Tallboy (and most modern mtbs) I use a TON of headset spacers and a 420mm Thomson Elite seat post (I don't use a dropper) to fit me perfectly. 

Regarding options, if you want to go full custom and are open to aluminum, call Ventana USA. They're near Sacramento and have YEARS of experience with custom and semi custom frames for giant sized humans.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Tytlynz said:


> But there are few choices for someone with my size and thought there might be tweaks I could make. 60 mm 13 degree rise stem would raise the grips about 15 mm without changing the reach.


In fact, nothing you do will change the reach. All you can do is move the location of the bars. You can't 'cheat' frame size. Moving the bars up and forward of the steerer tube will make the cockpit feel bigger and more comfortable but the wheelbase will still be just as short. The handling will suffer. I also run my bar roll in line with the steering axis to avoid increasing effective stem length. I never try to compensate for sizing with bar, stem, saddle adjustments. I'm 6'5" so it's a bit easier. My XXL Tallboy is plenty big enough for me.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Agree that there's not much you can do to increase the ride quality of a frame that's too small, BUT you can fit yourself properly to almost any bike, within reason.

This is a great book and the RAD method puts all these questions about stem, bar reach together into what really matters:





Dialed: the secret math of a perfect mountain bike setup – Lee Likes Bikes online mountain bike school







www.llbmtb.com





This is a great concept, with multiple methods, but the BEST method, especially for someone at the extreme method of the spectrum is this. It sounds complicated but it's really simple:

1. Find two patio chairs.
2. Take the rear wheel off your frame.
3. Put one pedal on each chair.
4. Stand mounted on top of the frame.
5. Pull the handlebars up to your waist.
6. Stand up straight.
7. If RAD is correct, your bars should be firmly at your knuckles.

You can use this method to find the right stem length, what bar length feels comfortable (for you it should be at least 780), and minor adjustments in RAD can be made with bar tilt.

By fitting yourself properly to a bike that may be too small, it should be that much more obvious what you'll need in your ideal bike.




Tytlynz said:


> I had the opportunity to test a 2022 SJ comp in S6. Really nice ride. But, and there is always a but, I had some reservations. I am 6’7” 275 with 36.5 inseam and 37.5 arms measured. I could not feel comfy seated. I do not know if this is due to STA or just the geo in general. I am coming off a 2014 CDale Trail SL jumbo with a STA of 72 or so degrees. The reach seemed fine but the bar height was low. To the point I felt it an effort to crane my neck to see in front of me.
> 
> But there are few choices for someone with my size and thought there might be tweaks I could make. 60 mm 13 degree rise stem would raise the grips about 15 mm without changing the reach. Hope has a 20 degree 50 mm stem that according to the calculator would leave the bars in the same place but raise them almost 3 cms. I would have to get new bars as the clamp diameter is 31.8 and the current bars are 35. I did not bring my WTB saddle which is a bit wider and my sit bones like it.
> 
> ...


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## abeckstead (Feb 29, 2012)

Tytlynz said:


> they don’t make Al in xxl. The carbon is too pricey when you can find one.


I can understand that, SC is pretty proud of these frames. Just a week or so ago someone sold a very nice XXL Tallboy CC frame for $1500 in the SC forum. With the weight penalty of a big frame… I wouldn’t want aluminum personally. Maybe search hard for a used carbon frame to build? 

I believe Trek still makes the fuel? in a XXL aluminum frame only. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

OP, I've had good success with riser handlebars to fix low Stack heights. On bikes that have a really short headtube I have no trouble properly weighting the front wheel when the handlebars are at a comfortable height. 

With short stems you don't gain much from a 15 degree rise. Things happen much faster with a good 30-60mm (or more) riser handlebar. 



abeckstead said:


> With the weight penalty of a big frame… I wouldn’t want aluminum personally.


The guy is 275 lbs... Not sure if you're serious? 1.5-2 lbs in the frame would be really low on my priority list, and perhaps he DOESN'T want a carbon frame for reasons. The $1k savings can be spent on good wheels, which he will inevitably need. 

I will never understand weight weenies in the Clyde forum?


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## Tytlynz (Apr 29, 2015)

abeckstead said:


> I can understand that, SC is pretty proud of these frames. Just a week or so ago someone sold a very nice XXL Tallboy CC frame for $1500 in the SC forum. With the weight penalty of a big frame… I wouldn’t want aluminum personally. Maybe search hard for a used carbon frame to build?
> 
> I believe Trek still makes the fuel? in a XXL aluminum frame only.
> 
> ...


Yeah I have a call in to a guy who may be able to get a Fuel Ex in xxl to get on. The SJ was an alloy comp did not realize I omitted the alloy part.


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## Tytlynz (Apr 29, 2015)

*OneSpeed* said:


> OP, I've had good success with riser handlebars to fix low Stack heights. On bikes that have a really short headtube I have no trouble properly weighting the front wheel when the handlebars are at a comfortable height.
> 
> With short stems you don't gain much from a 15 degree rise. Things happen much faster with a good 30-60mm (or more) riser handlebar.
> 
> ...


Yeah a pound or two will be a drop in Lake Michigan. Wheel upgrade would likely be the first upgrade though I have a great set on my current bike that I can transfer.

The SC carbon frames are beauts but I can’t justify the outlay.


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## Tytlynz (Apr 29, 2015)

chomxxo said:


> Agree that there's not much you can do to increase the ride quality of a frame that's too small, BUT you can fit yourself properly to almost any bike, within reason.
> 
> This is a great book and the RAD method puts all these questions about stem, bar reach together into what really matters:
> 
> ...


Interesting concept. I will look more into this. The inertia is dropping the drachmas to then drop additional coin to fix the issue.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Tytlynz said:


> Yeah I have a call in to a guy who may be able to get a Fuel Ex in xxl to get on. The SJ was an alloy comp did not realize I omitted the alloy part.


Maybe I missed something but it looks like the S6 Stumpjumper is quite a bit bigger than the XXL Fuel Ex.


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## Tytlynz (Apr 29, 2015)

jeremy3220 said:


> Maybe I missed something but it looks like the S6 Stumpjumper is quite a bit bigger than the XXL Fuel Ex.


That is sort of what I was inquiring about. The spec say it is longer, but it doesn’t feel long. The saddle to bar drop puts my chest way beyond the bars when out of the saddle pedaling and it does not feel like I can sit comfortably when on the flats as I am almost in a roadie position. If the bars came up a few cms I think it would be more natural. That is the feeling on my friends HT. Maybe it is new geo and I am too used to antiquated feel that it feels very foreign. And I was on an xc bike.


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## Mac_89 (Mar 24, 2021)

I felt the same when I was trying out bikes before my current build. Riser bars will make the biggest difference for the smallest amount of money ime. Rolling the bars forwards or backwards will make a huge difference as well.










That’s a 50mm Deity Highside with 30mm of spacers. They do an 80mm rise version as well. It’s supposedly a jump bike bar but it’s 800mm wide and feels like any other trail bar. I’ve been through a heap of different bars and stems in the last year but this combination is by far the most comfortable. At 6’ on an XL I shouldn’t _need_ it, but it feels right and it’s much easier on my back and hands. It also makes the front easier to pick up as I run the bike in the long chainstay position.

On my old trail bike that came out before the LLS thing took off I had a 30mm riser with 30mm of spacers, so it’s quite a jump.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Tytlynz said:


> That is sort of what I was inquiring about. The spec say it is longer, but it doesn’t feel long. The saddle to bar drop puts my chest way beyond the bars when out of the saddle pedaling and it does not feel like I can sit comfortably when on the flats as I am almost in a roadie position. If the bars came up a few cms I think it would be more natural. That is the feeling on my friends HT. Maybe it is new geo and I am too used to antiquated feel that it feels very foreign. And I was on an xc bike.


The Stumpjumper has a higher stack too. Reach/stack of the Stumpjumper is 530/650. Fuel Ex is 520/641. Whatever you felt on the Stumpjumper will be worse on the Fuel Ex given the same cockpit setup.


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

chomxxo said:


> This is a great concept, with multiple methods, but the BEST method, especially for someone at the extreme method of the spectrum is this. It sounds complicated but it's really simple:
> 
> 1. Find two patio chairs.
> 2. Take the rear wheel off your frame.
> ...


Do you have a photo or video link?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

RAD is Lee McCormack's concept, and he's got illustrations in his book Dialed. I'm not affiliated with those guys at all but they deserve the credit. I'm 6'4" and always struggled with fit that would allow me to go fast in Cat 1. Lee did put out this video explaining the "chair method." I've found this much easier and more accurate than any measurements or tables--you know it's right because it's fitting your body.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Not to completely derail this but the problem with the chair and wall method is that the longer your arms are the shorter your RAD will be for a given height. Lee says something about how the optimum RAD puts you in a deadlift position with the chair method. The problem is, you're not deadlifting the bike. You're rowing it so the longer your arms are the further away the start position aka grips should be.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I don't necessarily agree with that. The farther your arms are away from you, the less rope you have to extend yourself, or as Lee says, if you're RAD+ "you're a piece of meat hurtling to an uncertain fate."


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

chomxxo said:


> The farther your arms are away from you, the less rope you have to extend yourself


What does that mean?


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

This guy explains it excellently. BTW he's 6'3"


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

chomxxo said:


> This guy explains it excellently. BTW he's 6'3"


I agree with him and having longer arms means you have a longer "rope". Lee's method means the longer your arms are the shorter your bike should be. For example, you have two riders that are 6'2" but one of the riders has freakishly long arms... should the rider with the longer arms ride the smaller size? Obviously not. 

It only works if riders scale up and down proportionally based on height. But if that were the case then you could just size based on height. Lee's method does the opposite of how ape index should be taken into account.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

All this is a bit moot as OP isn't going to find a bike that's RAD+ anyway. I'm 6'5" and my XXL Tallboy is Rad-


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## CLDSDL43 (Sep 15, 2021)

It varies so much for each individual. I'm 6-7" riding a xxl Santacruz HT. It's leaps and bounds the most fun, best fitting, balanced mtb I've been on. Had several custom frames built for me thru yrs but nothing close to ride of SC HT. Not to say that each of those custom bikes didn't feel great at the time and better than the previous. I rode a 6-5" friends old trek y frame recently for a bit and had a blast on it. It's measurements are way smaller than my current (and its 26") Sometimes the compromise with posts/stems/bars works for me , sometimes not. No magic formula for fit or satisfaction on bike. (Within reason).


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

The new sj bikes are more forward riding style and for someone your size, have a very low stack. They expect a fairly aggressive attack ride style.

did it feel like the bike was down at your knee caps while standing?

i recently demoed a xxl rockhopper for a week. I brought a 90 stem to bring the bars up. But had to use the stock bars since this was an overseas trip. The bike was suprisingly well sized and would be fine w riser bars, but it was too low as used. You know that feeling when you cant use your arms for bracing as they are just too low. Making a tall triangle out of your cg To contact points.

my current bike is 685 stack and 40mm to spacers and 38mm risers. Sadly the reach is too short so a 70 flat stem is required. Slows the steering substatially but you forget it just like riding an oval chain ring. 
get the most stack possible.


question. How did it feel pedalling in the knees to bars.


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## Tytlynz (Apr 29, 2015)

Fuse6F said:


> The new sj bikes are more forward riding style and for someone your size, have a very low stack. They expect a fairly aggressive attack ride style.
> 
> did it feel like the bike was down at your knee caps while standing?
> 
> ...


Pedaling was fine but the feeling of reaching down to the bars was what prompted my original post. I was wondering if raising the bars would to com back to a more natural potion. There was some room to adjust the spacers but the bar already was a 30 mm rise bar. Somthere would have to be another adjustment. I found a riser stem that in conjunction with a higher rise bar would raise the grip height about 50 mm.


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## Tytlynz (Apr 29, 2015)

I was comparing the HT length with the SC bikes. SC has HTs that are about 20 mm longer than Spesh. I wonder if that is why they seem taller even though the difference is only about 7 mm?


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## geofharries (Jun 2, 2006)

jeremy3220 said:


> Maybe I missed something but it looks like the S6 Stumpjumper is quite a bit bigger than the XXL Fuel Ex.


I’m 6’3” with a 37” inseam and ride a Trek Fuel EX in XXL. I added a 50mm rise bar.










Best fitting non-custom bike I’ve ever owned in more than 30 years.

Could be worth trying it out if you can find one.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Tytlynz said:


> I was comparing the HT length with the SC bikes. SC has HTs that are about 20 mm longer than Spesh. I wonder if that is why they seem taller even though the difference is only about 7 mm?


A longer ht length w equivalent stack means less fork travel.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

you can make it work. The shop should be willing to try a few parts for you!

i went to an uncut steerer tube (new fork) in order to increase spacers under the stem.

im sure i could run a riser stem and less spacers. But i need the 70mm reach extension. So a riser stem with that length would probably be 100mm long. Dont think id find that on the market strong enough for a clyde.

a tall tall stack requires less reach to mimic the longer reach of a short stack. Quite a bit of a difference. Dont be afraid of a short reach bike. Lengthen the reach a little. It will also balance the too short rear center with the front end making a better handling bike imo.

overall id rather have a shorter bike w the stack i need than a longer bike that i feel bent over on, w my seat 4" higher than the bars.

i did fit test a s5 sj and they werent able to get the dropper high enough before running past the minimum insertion line. Like 50mm too short. It was way too small. Lol

very thankful to have my 2018 sj xxl. Inspite of its limitations.

look for a used one!


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

I'm 6'7 and 230. Took me a while to dial in my SC Hightower C XXL, but it's by far the best bike I've ever ridden both fit and performance wise. Putting a 160mm fork on and riser bars with a slightly longer stem dialed it in. It climbs good, and bombs the steeps in control. If you are riding more XC trails, the Tallboy will climb better and pedal faster in the flats.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

While I don't mean to be overly harsh, this is a sad example of forum logic. 2+2=5, I imagined it, so it must be possible.

If you and me are both 6'7" and I have longer arms than you do, then I will also have longer legs. Therefore my torso will be shorter than yours. This is a proven fact of human physiology, ectomorph vs endomorphology, to be exact, besides some ultra rare mutations (being that tall is rare enough).

Someone with longer arms at the same height will therefore fit better on a smaller frame, that is correct.

So in summary, RAD is the singularly relevant measurement for all MTB riders, and everything should be oriented towards it in your bike fit, instead of seeking out pieces like stack height, reach, etc....





jeremy3220 said:


> I agree with him and having longer arms means you have a longer "rope". Lee's method means the longer your arms are the shorter your bike should be. For example, you have two riders that are 6'2" but one of the riders has freakishly long arms... should the rider with the longer arms ride the smaller size? Obviously not.
> 
> It only works if riders scale up and down proportionally based on height. But if that were the case then you could just size based on height. Lee's method does the opposite of how ape index should be taken into account.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

chomxxo said:


> Someone with longer arms at the same height will therefore fit better on a smaller frame, that is correct.


If we were talking about road bikes I'd agree. Someone with a longer torso needs a longer ETT/cockpit. A rider with a shorter torso for a given height will have a higher center of mass, it doesn't make sense that they would need a shorter wheelbase bike as loop out and endo angles decrease with COM.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

chomxxo said:


> While I don't mean to be overly harsh, this is a sad example of forum logic. 2+2=5, I imagined it, so it must be possible.
> 
> If you and me are both 6'7" and I have longer arms than you do, then I will also have longer legs. Therefore my torso will be shorter than yours. This is a proven fact of human physiology, ectomorph vs endomorphology, to be exact, besides some ultra rare mutations (being that tall is rare enough).
> 
> ...


And as we progress. You have super long arms with super long legs and ride a small bike fit with the worlds longest seat tube extension. You ride bull legged cause your knee caps keep smacking the super low handle bars that are super close in due to your super short torso requiring the small bike fit. This creates a small tight triangle when standing as your hands are now down by your mid thighs and about 6" in front of them. Bracing for terrain is a real treat!


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Fuse6F said:


> And as we progress. You have super long arms with super long legs and ride a small bike fit with the worlds longest seat tube extension. You ride bull legged cause your knee caps keep smacking the super low handle bars that are super close in due to your super short torso requiring the small bike fit. This creates a small tight triangle when standing as your hands are now down by your mid thighs and about 6" in front of them. Bracing for terrain is a real treat!


Sympathies to Manute Bol, lol. I mean come on...

The differences, even for a very tall person, are only a couple of inches in single arm length. But by all means keep the forum logic going, it's quite entertaining.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

chomxxo said:


> The differences, even for a very tall person, are only a couple of inches in single arm length. But by all means keep the forum logic going, it's quite entertaining.


According to you leg length changes proportionally to arm length, if arm length variance doesn't matter much then neither does torso length for a given height.

If inseam is longer then COM height is greater which means the stack/bars need to be higher to keep the bars neutrally weighted. A rider with a longer torso is going to need a longer but lower cockpit. It makes sense they would generally be on the same size frame but with a different setup.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Chainstay, chainstay.... When the manufacturers start making frames proportionally larger with proportionally longer chainstays, then frames will be rightly balance for all riders. This would require them to separately engineer the suspension for each frame size. The leverage change would change all the shock compression curves for each frame size. They would fit better, climb better, and descend better. The average size rider has the advantage of a balanced frame / chainstay. My XXL has the same chainstay as a Small. That's the problem. Not something that can be adjusted. The little 5mm rear axle flip chip does almost nothing. How about a 25mm rear axle flip chip! Manufacturers only want to make one rear triangle / one mold. They would have to have different linkage for each size too. I know it's a broken record...For now us really tall just have to deal with long front triangles, that put us too far forward. 
One more thing as far as downhill goes, why do you think the top DH racers that are barely 6 ft tall, ride XXL frames? Because longer wheel bases are more stable at higher speeds. They may corner slower, but as a much bigger individual I'll take a slower turner and be balance in control. The little guys are always faster anyways. 1330mm or longer wheelbase with a 460mm chainstay for me please.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Chainstay, chainstay.... When the manufacturers start making frames proportionally larger with proportionally longer chainstays, then frames will be rightly balance for all riders. This would require them to separately engineer the suspension for each frame size. The leverage change would change all the shock compression curves for each frame size. They would fit better, climb better, and descend better. The average size rider has the advantage of a balanced frame / chainstay. My XXL has the same chainstay as a Small. That's the problem. Not something that can be adjusted. The little 5mm rear axle flip chip does almost nothing. How about a 25mm rear axle flip chip! Manufacturers only want to make one rear triangle / one mold. They would have to have different linkage for each size too. I know it's a broken record...For now us really tall just have to deal with long front triangles, that put us too far forward.
> One more thing as far as downhill goes, why do you think the top DH racers that are barely 6 ft tall, ride XXL frames? Because longer wheel bases are more stable at higher speeds. They may corner slower, but as a much bigger individual I'll take a slower turner and be balance in control. The little guys are always faster anyways. 1330mm or longer wheelbase with a 460mm chainstay for me please.


Dont forget to factor in how the short rider's lower cg affect frame balance as well. 

Take a tall triangle with a short base and tip it backwards as if riding up the slope of a trail and you quickly see the cg move backwards behind the rear axle.

smaller riders fit down inside the pocket of the bike gaining much better advantage. even 29er wheel rollover is improved.


please build a true xxxl bike frame! Toss some 32" wheels on it too!


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Fuse6F said:


> Dont forget to factor in how the short rider's lower cg affect frame balance as well.
> 
> Take a tall triangle with a short base and tip it backwards as if riding up the slope of a trail and you quickly see the cg move backwards behind the rear axle.
> 
> ...


32 / 29 mullet.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Tytlynz said:


> I had the opportunity to test a 2022 SJ comp in S6. Really nice ride. But, and there is always a but, I had some reservations. I am 6’7” 275 with 36.5 inseam and 37.5 arms measured. I could not feel comfy seated. I do not know if this is due to STA or just the geo in general. I am coming off a 2014 CDale Trail SL jumbo with a STA of 72 or so degrees. The reach seemed fine but the bar height was low. To the point I felt it an effort to crane my neck to see in front of me.
> 
> But there are few choices for someone with my size and thought there might be tweaks I could make. 60 mm 13 degree rise stem would raise the grips about 15 mm without changing the reach. Hope has a 20 degree 50 mm stem that according to the calculator would leave the bars in the same place but raise them almost 3 cms. I would have to get new bars as the clamp diameter is 31.8 and the current bars are 35. I did not bring my WTB saddle which is a bit wider and my sit bones like it.
> 
> ...


Stack height is everything for a tall rider. There are legit only a handful of off the shelf carbon FS MTB's on the market that are truly going to fit someone 6'6"+. Most bikes top out in the 610-640mm stack range. Even with a 46mm riser bar, this just wasn't enough for me. I had a Trek Superfly, Stumpjumper, Evil Following, Ibis Ripmo, and none of them quite fit. I got a 2XL Tallboy and couldn't be happier.

Tallboy, Hightower, Megatower all come in 2XL. Just get a 2XL of the one that has the travel you need.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Alias530 said:


> Stack height is everything for a tall rider. There are legit only a handful of off the shelf carbon FS MTB's on the market that are truly going to fit someone 6'6"+. Most bikes top out in the 610-640mm stack range. Even with a 46mm riser bar, this just wasn't enough for me. I had a Trek Superfly, Stumpjumper, Evil Following, Ibis Ripmo, and none of them quite fit. I got a 2XL Tallboy and couldn't be happier.
> 
> Tallboy, Hightower, Megatower all come in 2XL. Just get a 2XL of the one that has the travel you need.


Still too low. My 685 stack has uncut steerer 40mm spacers and 38mm risers. So 725 seems about right for 6'6" and up


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Fuse6F said:


> Still too low. My 685 stack has uncut steerer 40mm spacers and 38mm risers. So 725 seems about right for 6'6" and up


I run 46mm riser bars with an uncut steerer with 30mm spacers below the stem. I think you'll be fine, it's going to feel different. The concern is when it's WRONG, i.e. too low and you're going over the handlebars because it's too easy to shift your center of gravity. I have longer inseam and same arm length as you.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

It really depends on the individual rider. I think for most riders in the 6'5"-6'7" they can get into a neutral position with 35mm bars on the Santa Cruz XXL bikes. Cathro is 6'7" and runs a 20mm rise bar on his Tallboy (stack 654mm). However, body proportions, age, riding style and flexibility come into play.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Where are all the slammed stem flat bar riders complaining the stack is too high!!!

might manufacturers actually be missing the stack for our size!

lets see them step up and build a frame at 700 stack so we dont need 46mm risers!


if they were correctly sizing, shouldnt we also see just as many medium riders also running 46mm risers?


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

jeremy3220 said:


> It really depends on the individual rider. I think for most riders in the 6'5"-6'7" they can get into a neutral position with 35mm bars on the Santa Cruz XXL bikes. Cathro is 6'7" and runs a 20mm rise bar on his Tallboy (stack 654mm). However, body proportions, age, riding style and flexibility come into play.


Ben has also complained about the short chainstay on his SC bikes. I would bet his custom V10 has a really long CS.
BTW, my modified SC HT now has a stack of 670mm. Longer forks and the installed Slack-R bumped it up. The downside is the seat tube angle became .3 deg. less. Not much. Had to move my saddle forward a little, and put a slightly longer stem to balance it out... Kind of. I pretty happy the way it is now. It's not going to get any better.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Fuse6F said:


> Where are all the slammed stem flat bar riders complaining the stack is too high!!!


10 out 10 strawman.

"if they were correctly sizing, shouldnt we also see just as many medium riders also running 46mm risers?"

I'm not opposed to larger frames existing but I think ~660mm stack not being high enough for 6'4"-6'7" is mostly isolated to older guys wanting extra comfort. Which is fine. I don't care if someone starts making 700+mm stack bikes but I think you're the exception not the norm outside of this forum.


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## brawlo (Mar 13, 2012)

jeremy3220 said:


> It really depends on the individual rider........However, body proportions, age, riding style and flexibility come into play.


This 100%. It really does depend. It depend on all of your physical attributes and then it also comes down to what kind of trails you ride and what bike characteristics you like.

You can make bikes, even much smaller bikes work for you and accept the compromises or just get onto a bike that genuinely fits well. For talls, that is a really hard factor, particularly when you look at stack heights. Now for me at "only" 6'5", my saddle is up at around 890mm from BB to top of saddle. That puts me at over 200mm above the stack level of even the larger stacked bikes. At those lofty heights, getting the bars up to saddle level where I find handling works best for me means lots of spacers, bar and stem, so stack is a BIG factor for me. The other compromise is that I also go rearward a lot which means I find CS length to be an important consideration as well. 

Now years ago I sat on a track bike specifically made for a guy that was 6'7" while we were working out a custom track frame for myself. The fitter just happened to have it in the shop to build so we used it as the base for my own frame rather than the retul. Coming from that, me at 2" shorter in stature needed 2" more reach and 3" higher saddle. It was a true eye opener as to how differently you can fit on a bike regardless of your height. Physical proportions are everything in a bike fit, height is just a nominal number that doesn't really help that much


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

jeremy3220 said:


> 10 out 10 strawman.
> 
> "if they were correctly sizing, shouldnt we also see just as many medium riders also running 46mm risers?"
> 
> I'm not opposed to larger frames existing but I think ~660mm stack not being high enough for 6'4"-6'7" is mostly isolated to older guys wanting extra comfort. Which is fine. I don't care if someone starts making 700+mm stack bikes but I think you're the exception not the norm outside of this forum.


Within this tall clyde forum i feel it is the norm to see guys complain about poor stack and short cs.

that was my point.

but if it was a normal biometric thing we would see this issue in smaller sizes. 
if it was an age thing we would also see it for older riders in smaller sizes!

my bars are within an inch below seat height


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Fuse6F said:


> Within this tall clyde forum i feel it is the norm to see guys complain about poor stack and short cs.
> 
> that was my point.
> 
> ...


Riders aren't going to start threads the Clyde forum to talk about how they have no problems with fit. Also, the forum demographic is older. I've seen plenty of 6'4"+ riders on Reddit and PB saying they size down to a large. The typical 22 year old is just going to go buy whatever the suggested size is in the model they want and be fine with it.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Also, most riders run some saddle to bar drop. I run about 1.5". That's where I like them while standing because that gives neutral weight on the bars (I don't set bar height for my seated position). This is also probably why I'm good with the Tallboy's 440mm chainstay. If my bars were 1.5"/38mm taller I'd definitely need a much longer rear center to keep the front weighted. 

So I understand why the same MTBR group that runs max spacers and 40-80mm rise bars wants 470mm+ chainstays but I don't think that's typical for taller riders. That bike would be so cumbersome. I've already contemplated sizing down, not because the bike would fit better but because I already feel that my bike is too long for the way the trails are built. The problem is if I go down to a shorter reach the stack also drops too much. So I'm not really opposed to XL and XXL bikes having a higher stack but the front center will grow longer for a given reach. Maybe that's what needs to happen next.. instead of the reach growing the stack increases... I'll be sizing down though. The bike industry might not like that though because they seem to leave stacks and seat tubes a bit low to allow riders to size up. 

TLDR: I think around 660mm stack is high enough for most 6'4"-6'7" riders but probably not too high for any of them. A higher stack might be a good thing and allow some 6'4" and 6'5" riders to size down.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

My bike is too short in reach, I have a 70mm flat stem. So my hands are out far enough to brace while braking. yes i understand running my bars higher will move my hands back. Thats factored in. I want my most comfortable position to be my standing attack position, then i adjust seat etc for seated pedalling.

i recently rode a borrowed hardtail for a week. 2022 rockhopper xxl. i put a 90 riser stem on it to bring the bars up. The standing position had much lower bars than i was used to. But more reach. I survived, but i preferred my taller setup for the neutrallity it profiveds on descents. your just always in a better position to react. The ht had my butt high (standing) a bit more than i like.

For you, better overall handling by the shorter reach is what your alluding to. It gives better bike balance as you have the reach but a much to short rear center. Now certain trail types are going to hate a long bike. I get that. Even my shorter bike is cumbersome in tight punchy situations. I like wide open faster trails As it suits the bike. I also like longer cardio rides.

Sadly my bike is compromised at both ends for me. fc and rc too short. so much so that I choose a 51mm offset fork just for the longer wheelbase.



i understand rc as this.... if i rode a zero length rc. How would the bike feel. No weight on the front tire, forcing me to put my weight into my hands on the bars to be able to turn. Therefore, there must be some certain length of rc that matches up with a fc which works ideally. Fixing the rc across a size range guarantees differing amounts of compromise between riders.

Comfortable on a bike can mean diff things, comfortable with the way the bike reacts on the trail, comfortable as not causing hand pain, ability to ride it for long periods, etc.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Why Does a rider size up on a bike??

i feel its because they like to ride steep chutes and feel more comfortable with more bike in front of them and with the taller stack!!!

i doubt they size up and run a negative stem. Bwdik


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Bringing up random bikes without mentioning geo numbers is just muddying the discussion. The XXL Rock hopper has reach (485mm) closer to a modern large. I'm not sure how that's relevant.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

deleted


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Just for fun. See the red and green numbers.

My rad measurement is about 970mm
my bike is first column
30mm extra reach would bring my bike much closer to perfect.
second column

stock s6 is third column
s6 w 70mm stem and 100mm stack to centre of stem and switch to 38mm riser bars is fourth column


2018 stumpjumper xxl Modified Vs 2022 stumpjumper s6 stock


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

So to the op. Get a huge stem riser and huge riser bars and you will probably fit the s6 fine.

but then whom did they design that s6 for? Since it clearly is under stacked for our size!


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Fuse6F said:


> but then whom did they design that s6 for?


Someone around 6'5", I could ride that bike fine with a 0° stem and normal riser bars.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

And here is Ben Castro's new V10 with a 470mm chain stay / rear center. I want some of those little custom dropouts! Please....


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Interesting to see Cathro size down (XXL -> XL) on the new Megatower V2.










__
http://instagr.am/p/Cci66AbsmbX/

I mentioned earlier in this thread I've been considering sizing down. The XXL is comfortable but definitely a performance disadvantage on tighter trails. The new XL Megatower looks like the sweet spot for me but hoping for a Hightower with the same sizing.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Good discussion

observations
the only riders that like short chainstays are the ones who dont run 520mm reach
some like a size down/shorter front center in order to feel more front end grip. (Went too far w the reach thing/not far enough w the chainstays)

dropping sizes seems okay but stack is a limitation or at least a bigger consideration
more stack wouldnt kill us as it would make it easier to size down!

cathro is a pretty cool guy!
the v10 was rocking super tall risers, reach extension and chain stay extension. Changed about as much as he could on the bike. Seems to me, the bike out of the box isnt well suited for a tall rider. 
( Long stem on a slack bike adds to stack.)

Cheers all


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