# Shimano, Brose, Bosch, Yamaha, Giant, Rocky



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

What motors have you tried? What motor do you want on your next bike?

factors:
- power and torque
- noise
- size and weight and form factor
- chainring size
- electronics and apps
- batteries and range
- brand and support


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I like shimano for its Q factor, ease of parts and reliability. I like having everything shimano in one big group set. Doesn’t need to be the most torquey. “Data produced by specialized “ hmm. 🍺


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## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

I love the power delivery of the Bosch Performance CX, but I don't completely trust it after it gave me a 500 error code and shut down at the very top of a steep long climb the other day. I was in a hurry and cranked up in Turbo, so it was very hot at the top which probably had something to do with it. Once it threw that code it wouldn't do anything so all I could do was coast back down the hill until it cooled off which was disappointing.

I've tried most of them and the Bosch is somewhat noisier but you only really notice it on the road when comparing directly with a quiet motor like the Specialized 1.2S. For a road commuter I would probably choose Specialized because of that. For a MTB, I'd like to try the Specialized 2.1 next time which probably has better thermal management.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Don't forget TQ and Fazua motors.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

While the Bosch system works well, the 2.5:1 gear multiplication has a lot of negatives. The chainrings are tiny and wear out quickly, they require a proprietary tool to install, and since Bosch doesn't actually make the cranks, they manufacturers can rip you off on proprietary chainring configurations. (Haibike does this, it is $140 for a single 16T chainring!). The wider Q-factor might be an issue for some, bu it doesn't bother me at all.

I'd like to try a Shimano system on an actual trail ride, I've only ridden them around parking lots. Obviously, they have the upper hand in system integration. 

Yamaha works great, uses standard cranks (can be a double chainring setup as well), and seems to be a happy system for most people. The ones I have ridden have been kind of noisy, but worked great on the trail. I know a couple of people with Yamaha-powered commuter ebikes as well, and they love them. 

The Specialized/Brose units I have ridden have been great, but ten years from now I predict a lot of whining when people with $10,000 eMTBs in mint condition can't get parts for them. Seriously, if a circuit board or internal gear goes out in 2028 for your 2018 Specialized, I'm guessing you'll be screwed unless you can find an old one to cannibalize. At least the Bosch/Yamaha/Shimano systems should be more plentiful and more easily fixed via a total replacement, from a donor if necessary.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Gutch said:


> I like shimano for its Q factor, ease of parts and reliability. I like having everything shimano in one big group set. Doesn't need to be the most torquey. "Data produced by specialized " hmm. ?


I added that in the graphic for full disclosure.

It's good data though as it's from the engineers at the Swiss office. They are very open and accurate IMHO. Very Swiss.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

notb said:


> I love the power delivery of the Bosch Performance CX, but I don't completely trust it after it gave me a 500 error code and shut down at the very top of a steep long climb the other day. I was in a hurry and cranked up in Turbo, so it was very hot at the top which probably had something to do with it. Once it threw that code it wouldn't do anything so all I could do was coast back down the hill until it cooled off which was disappointing.
> ...


Your motor overheated and protected itself. Almost all the motors do that if you climb a 4000 foot hill in full Boost/Turbo mode, for more than 30 minutes.

Variable is outside temperature and your body weight.

Interesting that it shut down completely. On my Shimano E-8000, it goes to Eco mode with an error code until it cools down sufficiently.

The old Levo did that but the engineers tell me the new Levo will never do it, no matter how hot or how heavy the rider.

Soo.... nothing to worry about but something to be aware of.

fc


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

honkinunit said:


> While the Bosch system works well, the 2.5:1 gear multiplication has a lot of negatives. The chainrings are tiny and wear out quickly, they require a proprietary tool to install, and since Bosch doesn't actually make the cranks, they manufacturers can rip you off on proprietary chainring configurations. (Haibike does this, it is $140 for a single 16T chainring!). The wider Q-factor might be an issue for some, bu it doesn't bother me at all.
> 
> I'd like to try a Shimano system on an actual trail ride, I've only ridden them around parking lots. Obviously, they have the upper hand in system integration.
> 
> ...


Good info!!!

Yeah, the Bosch chainring size is very unfortunate. Makes it hard to pedal past 20mph due to drag. And makes pulley systems necessary for full suspension swingarms.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Harryman said:


> Don't forget TQ and Fazua motors.


Good point!!!!

What do you know about them?

fc


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fc said:


> Good point!!!!
> 
> What do you know about them?
> 
> fc


Either end of the power and weight spectrum. The other motors listed are in the middle. Fazua is going for lightweight and removable, it's a slick system. Not many in the wild though, so we'll see how they do.

The TQ is the same motor that has been in the M1 Sporttechnik ebike for a number of years, it's @ a 1000w motor that Haibike has running at 250w in Europe. 120nm of torque though. I'm wondering if Haibike has plans to release it at a higher voltage and wattage here to have a selling point over the other manufacturers.

There are some innovative motor and gearbox combos starting to be teased too.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

So if you had an ebike you were happy with, but were thinking of upgrading in the future, would you buy or wait a year?


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

WoodlandHills said:


> So if you had an ebike you were happy with, but were thinking of upgrading in the future, would you buy or wait a year?


Buy the Levo now.

Other brands, I'd wait a year or two. Pivot Shuttle is great but $10k only. Lower price options will for it will surely come.

What is your current ebike?

fc


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## Zinfan (Jun 6, 2006)

WoodlandHills said:


> So if you had an ebike you were happy with, but were thinking of upgrading in the future, would you buy or wait a year?


Wait for sure. Look at what we have seen for the 2019 models. Larger batteries integrated for a sleek look, more motors coming out (Fazu, TQ) with differing qualities, lighter overall weight etc. This is predicated on your comment that you have an ebike that you are happy with, if you didn't have an ebike I'd say get one now.


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## Zinfan (Jun 6, 2006)

I only have ridden the Shimano E8000 system and have no way of testing any others but I would love to see the difference between them all. The chart is informative but I wonder how much each system's software contributes to the overall feel on the trail, power might not be everything.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Ive ridden the Brose, Bosch CX motors and have owned the Yamaha PW and now the Shimano E8000.

My favorite is the Brose do to its silent operation and great power delivery. It is very close to the Shimano, but the Shimano motor can get loud on the steep climbs. The lower the gearing the louder it gets.

The Bosch CX and Yamaha PW are almost identical in performance but the power delivery on the Yamaha feels more "natural" but it can get loud. The Bosch is just a brute. Too much instant torque that it'll pull you back a little. Can be an issue when climbing the chunky trails.

My current bike is a 2018 Meta Power and I love it! A little loud, but I'm cool with that


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Are eBikes available at outerbike or a separate ebike specific event?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

I've only tried the 500W Bafang as a conversion. At $379 it's rough around the edges but it works. It also is a cheap way to find out what I want and do not want in an e-bike and its motor. For those on a budget it does the job, but hub drives on trails are not nearly as fun; a mid-drive for sure in the future. 


factors:
- power and torque: really depends on how much traction I can get on the rear wheel. You can have all the power you want, but if the rear wheel slips up a steep section none of that matters. I would only get more power if I got a + or fat bike with gobs of rear traction, in order to actually use that power up hills/mountains. Otherwise 500W is plenty.

- noise: my current setup is fine. I kind of like a little bit of hum just to make sure it's working when I'm coasting anyway. 

- size and weight and form factor: current bike is 56 lbs and the inertia is huge. As above either I get a + or fat bike with 1000+W or I go down to XC in the 40-45 lb range with 250-500W. I cannot emphasize enough that I'd like a bike that can go up steep sections without issue. If the bike is lighter, then even if it's only 250W that may be better than 1000W and heavier without good traction. 

- chainring size: 44t due to the climbing reasons above

- electronics and apps: don't care

- batteries and range 10-17 Ah is fine. 10 Ah if the battery is light, like 5-6 lbs, otherwise 13-17 Ah

- brand and support: don't care


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

cjsb said:


> Are eBikes available at outerbike or a separate ebike specific event?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Manufacturers bring what they want, so some will have their eBikes at the demo area, and some will not.

The trails you can ride at the Moab Outerbike are severely restricted. You basically have to do loops on the gravel roads east of the demo area. None of the singletrack trails around the demo area are open to eBikes. You *could* ride up the Gemini Bridges road to Bull Canyon I suppose, but that would burn a lot of battery. You could also ride dirt all the way out to Sovereign, but that would take a long time and burn even more battery.


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

I have a rigid fat bike with a BBSHD, IGH and a Bluto.


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## Zinfan (Jun 6, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> I've only tried the 500W Bafang as a conversion. At $379 it's rough around the edges but it works. It also is a cheap way to find out what I want and do not want in an e-bike and its motor. For those on a budget it does the job, but hub drives on trails are not nearly as fun; a mid-drive for sure in the future.
> 
> factors:
> - power and torque: really depends on how much traction I can get on the rear wheel. You can have all the power you want, but if the rear wheel slips up a steep section none of that matters. I would only get more power if I got a + or fat bike with gobs of rear traction, in order to actually use that power up hills/mountains. Otherwise 500W is plenty.
> ...


Not sure how you are climbing but a 44t chainring probably wouldn't work with my Shimano system and not just to sizing considerations, the motor works best with some rpm's applied. Trying to brute force low rpm climbing won't get the best torque out of the motor, look at the chart and see that most of the motors start to work best above 70 rpm. Of course if you are talking about a 44t rear sprocket then never mind what I've said.

The Shimano system and I suspect the others as well don't make any noise when you are coasting along, they are essentially off unless you are pedaling.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

WoodlandHills said:


> I have a rigid fat bike with a BBSHD, IGH and a Bluto.


A what? Too many unfamiliar acronyms. Photos and details pls.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Zinfan said:


> Not sure how you are climbing but a 44t chainring probably wouldn't work with my Shimano system and not just to sizing considerations, the motor works best with some rpm's applied. Trying to brute force low rpm climbing won't get the best torque out of the motor, look at the chart and see that most of the motors start to work best above 70 rpm. Of course if you are talking about a 44t rear sprocket then never mind what I've said.
> 
> The Shimano system and I suspect the others as well don't make any noise when you are coasting along, they are essentially off unless you are pedaling.


Well...you have to understand first off that I have the equivalent of a BSO e-bike. Let's get that out of the way first lol. I don't have a mid-drive, so I still have a triple chainring, 24/34/42. This is a hub drive that we are talking about, so maybe my reply to this post is not even relevant; maybe FC should modify the title to be what mid-drive motor someone has tried, just to eliminate hub drives in the conversation.

One of the e-bike dealers that's on here was asking a moderator a specific question about throttle bikes, and the moderator's reply was that they are primarily on hub drive conversions, like mine. The fact that an e-bike dealer didn't know that goes to show how high of a percentage the mid-drives are on here, and how low of a percentage hub drives are in the MTB world. We'll have to do a poll later to see if even 5% on here have a hub drive.

As for the 44t chainring, many of the mid-drive bikes I've looked it have single front chainrings that range from 44-52t. What t is yours??? This is why in an earlier thread I asked if anyone was using 2x up front, precisely because I'd like low-end climbing and high-end speed together. 44t seems like it would really suck for climbing, even if I had a 34t, 36t, or 40t in back.

As for trying to improve a hub-drive experience, a cheap fix for me is to go 2x9 up front, moving the front derailleur over to the right, and then I can fit in a rear tire between 2.35 and 2.50 to help for climbing. Otherwise, this BSO 500W hub drive e-bike doesn't really climb much better than a normal bike (maybe 25-50% faster at most), and pushing it up steep sections is not very fun.


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## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

yep need mid drive for any hilly MTBing.

I have the Rockymtn Powerplay70. 630WH, was the king of range till the new Turbo Levo 700WH came out just now. 
- It is known to have the most instantaneous response time, and very subtle pedal control over the power, much better than the 2018 Turbo Levo, Shimano, Bosch etc. 
- It also works with a conventional MTB bottom bracket and crankset, with conventional Q factor (RaceFace crankset and BB come oem). 
- The Powerplay is the noisiest eMTB by far. 
- It's also pretty looking and a really great trail-enduro geometry and suspension. - The controls and features are really lacking - the phone app does pretty much nothing helpful. The remote on the bars is universally panned, vague to operate in action.
- 630WH battery, but it is not quick-removable. Would likely take half an hour to remove the motor, to get to the battery
- power curve is supposed to be pretty high, up to 1200watts, but spec'd at 250W nominal, lol. It's on the motor-manufacturer's website, of which I forget the name (quebec-based company). Seems their ebike motor systems are only used by Rocky Mtn right now
- my XL comes in around 50 lbs, with carbon frame and enduro-level components (FOX 36, 150/160mm travel, Fox Transfer etc)

and right now mine is in the shop for a mysterious error which prevents it from operating  2nd time it has done this to me. This happens after a full charge and sitting around a couple days. I am thinking it is a symptom of being a beta version from a tiny company, not as well engineered as the Spec/Shimano/Brose/Bosch systems


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Bulls has the most innovative line I think, one with the same motor as the Levo and 750wh, which I believe is also modular, 2 packs.

Claimed 35lbs for the model with the Fazua motor.

https://ebike-mtb.com/en/bulls-e-mtb-news-2019/


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

fc said:


> A what? Too many unfamiliar acronyms. Photos and details pls.


 Google is your friend if you do not know what an IGH is.


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## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

Harryman said:


> Bulls has the most innovative line I think, one with the same motor as the Levo and 750wh, which I believe is also modular, 2 packs.
> 
> Claimed 35lbs for the model with the Fazua motor.
> 
> https://ebike-mtb.com/en/bulls-e-mtb-news-2019/


yes good diverse lineup. and 750WH coming in January next year.

has the Brose torque-sensing been improved, I wonder? Or folks just find it good enough as it is?


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Harryman said:


> Bulls has the most innovative line I think, one with the same motor as the Levo and 750wh, which I believe is also modular, 2 packs.
> 
> Claimed 35lbs for the model with the Fazua motor.
> 
> https://ebike-mtb.com/en/bulls-e-mtb-news-2019/


I like the way Bulls tilt the motors up along the downtube for more ground clearance.

I think they are the only manufacturer with Brose, Bosch, Shimano, and Fazua. A friend of mine has a Bulls "Speed" (28MPH) pedal assist commuter bike with a Bosch motor. He had great customer service from the local dealer and the Bulls region rep on a mysterious noise he had that ended up being an out of spec chainring.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

My Focus is 756w with the extra battery. I haven’t had the need to use it yet though.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

factors:
- power and torque Legal power and high torque gained by using a higher 52v volt system, they'll get there eventualy
- noise Silent as possible because it is possible to have a silent motor
- size and weight and form factor Bikes that fit me. My hardtail weighs 45lbs and I have an eroad bike that weighs 46lb, Di2 IGH...
- chainring size I am kind of stuck with at 46t on my mtb because that is the smallest that will fit an offset ring over the gear reduction housing. 11/46 cassette and have yet to find a climb the 1:1 won't do in eco. I have up to a 150" gear on my road bikes using a Schlumpf High Speed drive 
- electronics and apps On my mtb I plumbed in a cheap watt hr/Ah meter to get an idea of where my battery is at and let my past experience decide how much further I can go. I use a Cycle Analyst III on my road bikes and it tracks all pertinent information, allows adjustment of the controller parameters that allows me to switch between watt levels and has the cruise control function I use in conjunction with a throttle 
- batteries and range I have been using 30Q Samsung 10ah batteries in 48v/480wh and 52v/520wh. Range varies according to time, terrain and mood anywhere from 17 to 50 miles. My next battery will be a 15ah 5.0A 2170 here soon. The 2170 cell is the immediate future of eBike batteries
- brand and support I have always been a custom guy and know enough about what I want to spec my for my own needs. Also I do my own wrenching for the most part and use open source motor systems that allow me to do so. I have a Quiring wth a TSDZ2 mid drive with torque sensing kit motor, CL Specialized road bike, with a 1000w front hub motor, my first ever Specialized btw, and a Bikes Direct road bike also with a 1000w front hub motor. All are conversions to e.

Having followed the progression of eBikes since I had my first one in 2002 and how slow it was to develop at this point it is hard to keep up and that makes for exciting developments as many of the ideas come from other segments of the e market place, and seemingly Automobile electronics manufactures are leading the charge. This company especially seemingly has ticked all the boxes. Word is their engineering team are all mtb'rs and designed this for how they want to ride.

"Automotive technology
"The fully sealed Mubea drivetrain comes with some remarkable features like the top performance of up to 4 kW, traction-uninterrupted shifting under load, low maintenance thanks to oil lubrication, high level comfort and optimal control. Thanks to its compact size it is easy to integrate this pure automotive technology into bike frames."






4k is a bit much and so is the 1100w battery and while no price is listed for the bikeyou know it isn't cheap for my needs but the gearbox/motor system is the wave of the future and they should make it to OEM if that clunky motor that Haibike did. Gearboxes on regular bikes, while available ala Pinion, are generally passed over due to weight concerns. But this system at 5kg, while slightly more than the lighter 3.6kg with a conventional drivetrain, more that should make up for it with the motor assist run at legal levels on board.

Exciting times and motors are one thing but the battery is the heart of any eBike and my advice is to not buy any bike that doesn't have a 2170 battery, as I believe the high end 700wh Levo's have, because next year will be wishing you had waited as they will be available on lower spec models according to this article.

https://www.bike-eu.com/home/nieuws...battery-maker-bmz-expand-cooperation-10134587

These batteries won't be backwards compatible due to the larger size of the 2170 cells.....


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Gutch said:


> My Focus is 756w with the extra battery. I haven't had the need to use it yet though.


That's the cool thing with the Focus today, modularity of batteries. It is the future!! Their integration si awful though.

So most of the time, I ride the Focus with one battery since it is 4+ lighter. On expedition rides, two batteries.

I did a good one a couple months ago. 8200 feet of climbing the steepest trails around here on eco and trail mode. Battery was gone.

fc


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Bigwheel said:


> "The fully sealed Mubea drivetrain comes with some remarkable features like the top performance of up to 4 kW, traction-uninterrupted shifting under load, low maintenance thanks to oil lubrication, high level comfort and optimal control. Thanks to its compact size it is easy to integrate this pure automotive technology into bike frames."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here is another gearbox/motor combination, less power but less weight, only 3.9kg. It'd be lighter than the conventional setups today.

https://www.kervelo.com/transmissions/quartz/


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

fc said:


> That's the cool thing with the Focus today, modularity of batteries. It is the future!! Their integration si awful though.
> 
> So most of the time, I ride the Focus with one battery since it is 4+ lighter. On expedition rides, two batteries.
> 
> ...


That's a badass climb!


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