# Suburu & IMBA Loves Mud?



## sick4surf (Feb 4, 2004)

Anyone notice the new Suburu ad in Bicycling magazine?

The caption states:

"Cars and bikes united by a mutual love of mud"

It shows a muddy mountain bike and rider up against a Suburu in very muddy conditions.

The IMBA logo is prominently displayed on the lower left corner.

What's up with that, Mr Suburu fat cat?


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## Megashnauzer (Nov 2, 2005)

good question. how much mud is acceptable for a trail?


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

You need to see the ad - if I were IMBA I would be horrified. Looks more like an advert for a 4WD or ATV. I'm happy Subaru and IMBA have partnered 'to keep the trails muddy''. :bluefrown:


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## k2biker (Jan 13, 2004)

Here ya go...interesting indeed. I'd hope that IMBA had a chance to proof this....


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*lol...*

Oops, guess that one slipped by. My favorite part is the "with the help of our dedicated partners, you can be sure there will be plenty of muddy trails..." Double oops.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

No it's all good. Some of us like riding muddy trails, which it is bonus if you come from a place where trails are muddy all year.


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## k2biker (Jan 13, 2004)

marzjennings said:


> No it's all good. Some of us like riding muddy trails, which it is bonus if you come from a place where trails are muddy all year.


That's true. But not all trails (read: soil types) can be sustainable in those conditions. Take the South, for example. Our trails are getting destroyed right now because folks feel entitled to ride wet trails, even when advised not to and when gates are closed, etc. That's a stark contrast to the Pac NW, I believe, where the soil can handle the use.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I'm always dismayed when mud is linked to biking, in the end it gives us all a collective environmental black eye and makes our sport seem destructive to those who don't know that riding in mud is not what mountain biking is about. I'm disappointed that IMBA has seen fit to propagate that image one more time, and for what, some money from a big corporate interest? Why does an automobile company get to create our collective image, are we crack whores to big business? Apparently we, or at least IMBA, are, to a degree. Nice. That really makes me want to write a check to IMBA... NOT!


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## Mark E (Feb 7, 2006)

I'm IMBA's communications director. We are just seeing the ad for the first time. We will work with Subaru to improve their messaging about bikes and mud.

-- Mark
markeller[@]imba.com


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

Riding in mud, for some, is exactly what mountain biking is all about. I've made decisions on bikes, tyres and components on their performance in muddy conditions. I made the move from v-brakes to disk-brakes because I wanted more mud clearance.


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## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

*"Seeing the ad for the first time"? Really?*

I can't believe IMBA allows any National ad to appear with their logo that they do not "proof" beforehand. Kinda careless with your "identity."

Please be more careful with MY money.


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

marzjennings said:


> Riding in mud, for some, is exactly what mountain biking is all about. I've made decisions on bikes, tyres and components on their performance in muddy conditions. I made the move from v-brakes to disk-brakes because I wanted more mud clearance.


And where exactly have you been? This is the trail advocacy forum, and riding wet trails is simply the wrong thing to do, it destroys trails and gives mtn bikers a bad name. Are your trails public? Do you work on them after they have been ridden wet? For most of the mountain bike and multi-use trails out there riding in mud is a really, really bad thing.

p.s. Read this: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=589499


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## indytrekracer (Feb 13, 2004)

If you go to the Subaru web page, you will see a picture of an outback driving through a stream in a lush woods. http://www.subaru.com/

I was flipping through a national Audubon Magazine this weekend and saw the same picture in an ad. I am assuming the Audubon Society isn't endorsing driving 4x4's through the wilderness.


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## k2biker (Jan 13, 2004)

Mark E said:


> I'm IMBA's communications director. We are just seeing the ad for the first time. We will work with Subaru to improve their messaging about bikes and mud.
> 
> -- Mark
> markeller[@]imba.com


Mark, 
Thanks for your comment. I agree with others that since the partnership with IMBA and Subaru has been long lasting, it would be nice if they'd be required to do a consult with IMBA before running ads. Or better yet, why don't we help them understand by educating them and making their ad campaign folks come out and do some trail work with us?! Bring 'em down South and let 'em see our mucky red clay that's destroyed right now.

There's another thread over at SORBA. (and where I snagged the photo from).


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## iloveboobies (Jan 26, 2010)

Riding in the mud ruins trails. If the trail is super wet and muddy.....your not suppose to ride. Come on meow.


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## LWright (Jan 29, 2006)

Not any worse than all those ads showing big air and stunts, like we all ride that way!
Maybe they should include a disclaimer about only riding mud where appropriate.


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## iloveboobies (Jan 26, 2010)

LWright said:


> Not any worse than all those ads showing big air and stunts, like we all ride that way!
> Maybe they should include a disclaimer about only riding mud where appropriate.


wait, your not hucking and getting massive air every time you ride


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

fishbum said:


> And where exactly have you been? This is the trail advocacy forum, and riding wet trails is simply the wrong thing to do, it destroys trails and gives mtn bikers a bad name. Are your trails public? Do you work on them after they have been ridden wet? For most of the mountain bike and multi-use trails out there riding in mud is a really, really bad thing.
> 
> p.s. Read this: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=589499


Ridden trails in the england, wales, scotland, ireland, france, norway, canada, morocco, holland, belgium, norway, oregon and now texas. Some areas are rideable in muddy conditions and some not. I think a blanket assumption that riding in the mud is always wrong is nonsense.

edit...went back and read through the link you posted. Looking at the pictures of erosion and you can see it's almost all due to water run off. The problem is the initial assumption someone could maintain a trail across a grassy field on soft soil. As soon as the grass was lost the erosion would begin and the grass would have been killed from riding in the wet or dry.


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## iloveboobies (Jan 26, 2010)

marzjennings said:


> Ridden trails in the england, wales, scotland, ireland, france, norway, canada, morocco, holland, belgium, norway, oregon and now texas. Some areas are rideable in muddy conditions and some not. I think a blanket assumption that riding in the mud is always wrong is nonsense.


I didn't say that riding on trails with mud was always wrong, BUT it CAN cause unnecessary trail widening and erosion that may lead to long-lasting damage.

Don't get me wrong, if there is some mud from a rain a few days ago and the trails are mainly dry, but there are a few wet spots, I will ride through them.

If it just rained that day or the day before, I usually avoid those trails.


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## langford (May 7, 2004)

Well, I won't be returning my Forester or my Yakima racks for a refund in protest.
That's fresh mud on the bike tires, obviously the rider had to cross the muddy road to get to the other side and back to the muddy car. No trails were harmed in the taking of this picture........


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## bikerjay (Sep 16, 2007)

If that were a cyclocross tire in the ad it would be a hugely successful ad. Just sayin.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

Most trail advocates will agree that muddy trails are best avoided although there are soil types, trail construction methods that are better at handling the impacts than others. Most trail advocates will also tend to agree that the image of bikes on muddy trails is not a positive one. I think most of us can agree one that.

Subaru is a car company, they are in business to sell cars (duh). A big part of their customer demographic is young active lifestyle people, their product suits that demographic well. (I've owned several over the years and presently own one). They have partnerships with organizations like IMBA because it makes sense from a marketing point of view. IMBA is an advocacy/educational organization, Subaru is not. 
I doubt very much that Subaru consults IMBA on all their marketing campaigns. maybe they should, but I'll step out on a limb and guess that few large multi national industrial corporations consult with small organizations that they have relationships with before they release ad material. The ad was probably put together by an ad agency that thinks Mtn biking is all about the x-games and red bull, after all, that's where a big chunk of the media attention is. 

Hopefully IMBA can educate Subaru on more appropriate advertising, Tell IMBA what you think by all means, but all the criticism and rightous indignation directed toward IMBA for this particular ad is IMO, misguided.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

zrm said:


> Most trail advocates will agree that muddy trails are best avoided although there are soil types, trail construction methods that are better at handling the impacts than others. Most trail advocates will also tend to agree that the image of bikes on muddy trails is not a positive one. I think most of us can agree one that.
> 
> Subaru is a car company, they are in business to sell cars (duh). A big part of their customer demographic is young active lifestyle people, their product suits that demographic well. (I've owned several over the years and presently own one). They have partnerships with organizations like IMBA because it makes sense from a marketing point of view. IMBA is an advocacy/educational organization, Subaru is not.
> I doubt very much that Subaru consults IMBA on all their marketing campaigns. maybe they should, but I'll step out on a limb and guess that few large multi national industrial corporations consult with small organizations that they have relationships with before they release ad material. The ad was probably put together by an ad agency that thinks Mtn biking is all about the x-games and red bull, after all, that's where a big chunk of the media attention is.
> ...


Very well stated, thank you.

Just because Subaru gives IMBA money as a supporter to enhance the Subaru image, IMBA is not an image consultant to Subaru. See Mark E's post above; IMBA was not even told about the ad.


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## redriderbb (Aug 30, 2005)

*Let's see if I can make this work...*

Okay here in lies the issue. IMBA is a corporation, it's good, I should hope the group representing our interest is big enough to be one. However, once you are that size your ability to control and market your "brand and message" are dramaticly lost. I am a very small operation and have much more control over marketing, but have felt the pull of "brand loss". I love how zrm connected the "mountain dew" image issue to the "mud" issue. It is like as mountain bikers we have all lost OUR ability to control OUR image.

This is getting a bit deeper than I expected. So here is the question...what are we, as mountain bikers...? This may be fun, and the weather here really sucks today.

Personally, I think ALL mountain bikers are closet mountain dew and mudders, but we are part of the "educated lot" in this discussion. I understand if people will fear putting what they really think, but try. So, my revised vision would be "Mountain Bikers benefit their lives by sharing a communal bond with the love of dirt and nature, that MOST people on the street do not." Makes us a bit unique, we have a passion, from a marketing perspectie unique is good.

I guess this is where the phrase "tragicly hip" came from...


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I don't see this issue as being about the morality of riding in mud, it's about the image chosen to represent mountain biking to the general (or otherwise) public. If IMBA's brand is on it then it's also representing IMBA, whether IMBA had a choice in it or not, and regardless of the politics, foresightedness, or competency of the employee (s) involved. It is unfortunate in that it reinforces a stereotype that many of us who manage trails are trying change. It is also an example of how you get twisted into something else when you suck a corporate tit.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

bsieb said:


> It is unfortunate in that it reinforces a stereotype that many of us who manage trails are trying change.


Too true. Its hard to say MTB has the same impact or less than ____ when the Land Manager or other stakeholders only have to step into the park a short ways and see tire tracks on muddy days. Throw in these adverts and they think that's how we all think and want to be.

We had a bit of a tiff in our area recently with an internet riding group who espoused on their website being "real" mountain bikers b/c they rode in all conditions, regardless of whether or not the trails were in good condition. They become so beligerant that not only were the authorities considering closing a great riding spot to mountain biking, but legal action was being contemplated against the site organizers. They've changed their tune but I don't think they understand or worse care that some areas just aren't built for and can't handle riding in the rain or after the rain.

Where I pitch in, we have to deal with legacy trails that aren't sustainable. That means most TM is focused on armoring, knicking, rolling grade dipping, and re-routing trail. Once we're done we leave behind a hardened, packed, and sustainable tread that can be ridden in, or hours after, a decent rain.

We just have 10 miles of trail to repair though...

How do you reach out to folks in a constructive manner if you do have trails that are legacy or aren't sustainable without coming across as militant or preachy??


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## rvmdmechanic (Sep 18, 2008)

You don't. Because anyone that thinks what they're doing is right, or permissible. treats you as a militant if you disagree. You might reach out to people who genuinely have never heard that this is an issue, but on here, as you will / have seen, with people that know what they are doing - their ignorance prevents them from accepting a small sacrifice (riding a trainer / road bike, instead of muddy trails) in order to preserve the greater good (more, better condition trails, more productive trail work days, etc.)

It is an unfortunate product of modern, "democratic" societies that people have forgotten how to shut up and follow orders... Don't ride in the mud. Unless you do the trailwork or have done it before, you don't know anything about the kind of damage your behavior does.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

I always have thought a decapitated head on a pike would make the point, covered in mud. But I think that comes across as a bit too militant. I have a couple candidates for this method, but then I'd also have to figure out how to use that same head to say, "we don't condone skidding, people that braid trails, and people that cut their own unapproved lines," at the sametime.

EDIT: this is what always gets me, I can be polite, or I can be a punk. I prefer polite as I want to win people over and make them feel comfortable learning about ettiquette, but there's a couple clowns out there that don't listen, take a disrespectful tone and make me mad. I haven't lost my temper with anyone, but some of the disrespect is mind boggling.


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

I may have found the solution here:

Substitute any talk of "playing in the mud" to "playing in the dirt" and everything will all be better and the sun will shine and people will smile and laugh and play and be happy and go drive their Outback with their Yakima racks holding their Gary Fisher bikes to their local IMBA-approved trails and ride and be happy!


YAY!


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## sick4surf (Feb 4, 2004)

Excellent choice of words.

United by a mutual love of dirt...that's the ticket.

Everyone needs their minimum daily requirement of dirt...


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

sambs827 said:


> I may have found the solution here:
> 
> Substitute any talk of "playing in the mud" to "playing in the dirt" and everything will all be better and the sun will shine and people will smile and laugh and play and be happy and go drive their Outback with their Yakima racks holding their Gary Fisher bikes to their local IMBA-approved trails and ride and be happy!
> 
> YAY!


+1 to that suggestion.


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## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

If it's an area where a Suburu can play in the mud then I'm sure a mountain bike can too. I understand that most areas are off limits to mud, BUT there are many places where you can legally and legitimately ride in the mud if you choose too. 

If the dude had muddy boots on then no one would care. If he had CX tires then no would care. If here were riding a horse then no one would care.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

While riding in mud is legal, and at times legitimate, it is largely sophomoric.

Playing in the dirt and chunk is a better and more accurate general image of mountain biking.

Very few bikers I know enjoy riding in mud if given a choice, around here it ruins your drivetrain quickly,

why the fascination with it?


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

bsieb said:


> While riding in mud is legal, and at times legitimate, it is largely sophomoric.


Some of us children never wanted to grow up and still enjoy getting muddy.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

marzjennings said:


> Some of us children never wanted to grow up and still enjoy getting muddy.


and that's why we don't let children manage the trails. :thumbsup:


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## DJ Giggity (Sep 9, 2008)

bsieb said:


> While riding in mud is legal, and at times legitimate, it is largely sophomoric.
> 
> Playing in the dirt and chunk is a better and more accurate general image of mountain biking.
> 
> ...


Well, for some of us it is because we want to ride for more than four months of the year.

Before anyone flames me, I will be the first to say that it matters where you ride. I live in the Pacific NW and some of our trails hold up great in the wet. Others do not.

IMBA's efforts in this area has helped to reduce overall trail wear. We have two new trail systems. One is built with the help of IMBA and the other is build to IMBA guidelines. Both hold up really, really well in the rain. A lot of people ride these trails and it takes pressure off of more sensitive areas. I don't know if you can make a good tag line out of that but it is true.

Riding in the wet can be really fun but damaging the trail is a complete buzzkill.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

DJ Giggity said:


> Well, for some of us it is because we want to ride for more than four months of the year.
> 
> Before anyone flames me, I will be the first to say that it matters where you ride. I live in the Pacific NW and some of our trails hold up great in the wet. Others do not.
> 
> ...


It's not about whether riding on wet trails is ever appropriate, it's about a negative public image of mountain biking. Why are mud riders always seeking approval? 

Seriously folks, ride in the mud all you want and have all the fun you can muster. Just don't represent that to the public as being what mountain biking is about. Doing so hinders the efforts for trail access in general. It contributes to the stereotype that mountain bikers are destructive. It's like you feel when you see an atv tearing up the wilderness in a tv ad. It's why the national forests have been forever closed to motorized cross country travel.

That's all I'm saying.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

bsieb said:


> and that's why we don't let children manage the trails. :thumbsup:


Touché.


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## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

bsieb said:


> Seriously folks, ride in the mud all you want and have all the fun you can muster. Just don't represent that to the public as being what mountain biking is about. Doing so hinders the efforts for trail access in general. It contributes to the stereotype that mountain bikers are destructive. It's like you feel when you see an atv tearing up the wilderness in a tv ad. It's why the national forests have been forever closed to motorized cross country travel.
> 
> That's all I'm saying.


PC machine at it's finest. :thumbsup:


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## jetta_mike (Feb 26, 2007)

You forgot to mention the part about if waiting for the sun to come out.....it doesn't.

In NW Washington and SW BC if you wait for it to stop raining you'll only have 3 or 4 month window to ride your bike.



DJ Giggity said:


> Before anyone flames me, I will be the first to say that it matters where you ride. I live in the Pacific NW and some of our trails hold up great in the wet. Others do not.


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## jsg (May 26, 2005)

Mark E said:


> I'm IMBA's communications director. We are just seeing the ad for the first time. We will work with Subaru to improve their messaging about bikes and mud.
> 
> -- Mark
> markeller[@]imba.com


This is very troubling. Subaru has been partnered with IMBA for many years, it's hard to believe that this could slip through.

At the local level we face a constant battle to educate the average rider that rding on wet trails is NOT OK. This type of ad is extremely damaging to our message.


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## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

jsg said:


> This is very troubling. Subaru has been partnered with IMBA for many years, it's hard to believe that this could slip through.
> 
> At the local level we face a constant battle to educate the average rider that rding on wet trails is NOT OK. This type of ad is extremely damaging to our message.


Overreacting a bit? Your message should be that "riding on our local trails in the mud is a no no, AND if you must ride in the mud, go somewhere where it is allowed."

IMBA's role SHOULD be to gain trail access, build sustainable trails, AND follow local trail rules, whether that be "yes mud" or "no mud."

It is allowed and accepted in some places. I personally don't like riding in serious mud due to drivetrain wear and tear, but it is perfectly acceptable in some places.


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## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

88 rex said:


> Overreacting a bit? Your message should be that "riding on our local trails in the mud is a no no, AND if you must ride in the mud, go somewhere where it is allowed."
> 
> IMBA's role SHOULD be to gain trail access, build sustainable trails, AND follow local trail rules, whether that be "yes mud" or "no mud."
> 
> It is allowed and accepted in some places. I personally don't like riding in serious mud due to drivetrain wear and tear, but it is perfectly acceptable in some places.


It's not overreacting in MN where JSG is talking about. There are no places we are allowed to ride when it's muddy. Just the way it is in MN.


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## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

RYNOFREERIDE said:


> It's not overreacting in MN where JSG is talking about. There are no places we are allowed to ride when it's muddy. Just the way it is in MN.


We don't all live in MN and IMBA isn't exactly telling people to go rogue ride your local trails.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

88 rex said:


> We don't all live in MN and IMBA isn't exactly telling people to go rogue ride your local trails.


IMBA is implicitly telling folks that riding in mud is cool. Most places it's not cool, just because there *may* be some exceptions to that doesn't change the fact that riding trails when they are muddy is destructive. It may be allowed or customary in some places, but I suspect unless those trails are in rock, and thus not muddy, they are still being negatively impacted. If soil is being displaced damage is occurring. Mud on your bike is soil being displaced. Multiply that mud by hundreds of riders and you have moved a pretty big pile of trail surface. All the words in the world won't put that dirt back on the trail.


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## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

bsieb said:


> IMBA is implicitly telling folks that riding in mud is cool. Most places it's not cool, just because there *may* be some exceptions to that doesn't change the fact that riding trails when they are muddy is destructive. It may be allowed or customary in some places, but I suspect unless those trails are in rock, and thus not muddy, they are still being negatively impacted. If soil is being displaced damage is occurring. Mud on your bike is soil being displaced. Multiply that mud by hundreds of riders and you have moved a pretty big pile of trail surface. All the words in the world won't put that dirt back on the trail.


 ut:


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## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

88 rex said:


> We don't all live in MN and IMBA isn't exactly telling people to go rogue ride your local trails.


I do realize the difference between different climates. I understand that in the Pacific NW or UK that if you waited to ride on dry days that you would never get to ride, but in most places, it is damaging to ride trails if they are too wet. It really hurts the efforts of most of us.

I guess some here don't have to spend their time fixing damage from people who ride trails when they are closed because they are too wet. I know I'm sick of it and it really hurts our volunteer morale. It really does a ton of damage for us.


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## decoeric (Jul 24, 2007)

Man I wish I had time to get all worked up about this... I looked on the suburu website and they also have an ad with dogs driving, which is much more scary to me... :thumbsup:


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

If some of you have spent years fighting for access, fighting for continued access, listening to the arguments of non-bikers, fixing trails damaged by misuse, watching how adverts portray bad images of mountain bikers and how non-bikers use them against us you might understand. Fortunately for you some of us do get worked up over issues like this and continue to fight the good fight. otherwise we'd all be playing shuffleboard.


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*Lighten Up, People*

Some of you are acting like the entire company of Subaru are out clubbing baby seals and IMBA's coming along to help drink the blood.

Someone at a marketing company somewhere pitched an ad to someone in the Subaru marketing department. Neither of these people were mountain bikers but rather advertising professionals. Whoever the marketing/pr exec is that manages the relationship with IMBA and would be familiar with mountain biking wasn't involved in the decision making process.

Was it a poor decision? Yes. Was it a malicious smear campaign on mountain bikers and trail advocates? No.

Let it go already.


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## tacdad5x (Jun 9, 2008)

Ken in KC said:


> Let it go already.


_x_ eleventy


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

*Mud muddies the waters quickly*



Ken in KC said:


> Some of you are acting like the entire company of Subaru are out clubbing baby seals and IMBA's coming along to help drink the blood.
> 
> Someone at a marketing company somewhere pitched an ad to someone in the Subaru marketing department. Neither of these people were mountain bikers but rather advertising professionals. Whoever the marketing/pr exec is that manages the relationship with IMBA and would be familiar with mountain biking wasn't involved in the decision making process.
> 
> ...


I think most of us agree with your assessment, Just kicking cans.


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## saturnine (Mar 28, 2007)

you guys are way too uptight. just ride your bike and have fun. you spend all your time fighting for this and that and trying to stop things that will never stop. if you see a rut, use your 5" of suspension and ride over it. it will go away.


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

Ummmm... in case you guys forget, we fight these fights on your behalf too. Trails and access just don't happen, and should not be taken for granted. So thanks for crapping on our efforts.


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## mtbikernc69 (Mar 23, 2004)

You know...there's riding in the mud and then there's riding in the MUD! Big difference. Sometimes I'll ride in less than ideal conditions. Is it wrong? Yes and No. Yes it's wrong form a generalized image perspective. No it's not wrong because I know how the trail flows/changes/moves. And I know that I am the one or ONE of the one's that will be repairing in the long run. If there's a big mud hole...I ride through the middle of it, take a mental note of the area and then come back in a few weeks with my buds, wheel barrow, shovels/McLeods/Pulaskis and lots of crush'n run or rock and fix it. Trail design is part science and part art. That much I have learned, but it is no where near perfect. 
A trail is ever changing...just like life. 

Use your best judgment, folks. Then get out there and do some danged trail work!:thumbsup: 

Mark 
Trail Coordinator Fisher Farm Park
Davidson, NC


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*Not sure who you're replying to...*



fishbum said:


> Ummmm... in case you guys forget, we fight these fights on your behalf too. Trails and access just don't happen, and should not be taken for granted. So thanks for crapping on our efforts.


Not sure who "you guys" is refering to? I don't see anyone crapping on anyone elses efforts.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Ken in KC said:


> Not sure who "you guys" is refering to? I don't see anyone crapping on anyone elses efforts.


See Saturnine's "you guys" comment. I think the you guy's you're quoting was in response to that.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

<shrug> Looks to me like Subaru gets to slap IMBA's logo on its ad material when it wants. I wouldn't be surprised if IMBA tells them they want to see anything its logo appears on from now on. At least that's how I'd do it. Someone in marketing is going to get chewed.

But really...let's think about this. So lots of people say, "yay! I love mud! I want to ride in it! I want to share that with the world!" Some respond with "riding in mud is bad." Others say, "some soil types can handle riding in the mud, however others cannot. Therefore we should avoid portraying the image that mountain bikers all ride in the mud to avoid hampering efforts in places with more sensitive soil"

Seriously, which response out of the group sounds the most logical? I'm going with #3. Fine, some trails can handle traffic when the trails are wet. I currently live somewhere that I can ride in the wet without taking parts of the trail home with me. Other places cannot handle that. I have lived and ridden in some of those places. I have also lived and ridden in places where riding in the mud is conditionally acceptable depending on season. I would rather say don't glorify riding in the mud and piss a few people off than militantly protesting against people who say, "riding in mud is bad" and put another nail in the coffin of a trail somewhere with sensitive soils.

That Subaru ad will be picked up by some who want mountain bikers off of "their" trails. They will say, "look what mountain bikers do! Look! Even IMBA who claim to promote sustainable trails promote this image of mountain bikers! You don't want them on those trails."

This one ad won't change much. But do we want this to become a trend, or would we prefer it not continue?

As another poster put it...it's all about image control. We need our image to be that we enjoy the trails like everyone else without tearing them up.


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## Guy Cool (Oct 3, 2008)

Overreaction Central - holy cow people. All of the sudden this ad appears and the trails are going to die soon? Pretty sad.


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## Guy Cool (Oct 3, 2008)

fishbum said:


> If some of you have spent years fighting for access, fighting for continued access, listening to the arguments of non-bikers, fixing trails damaged by misuse, watching how adverts portray bad images of mountain bikers and how non-bikers use them against us you might understand. Fortunately for you some of us do get worked up over issues like this and continue to fight the good fight. otherwise we'd all be playing shuffleboard.


This angle always kills me. There aren't that many mt. bikers and certainly fewer build/work trail. It is easy to recognize that if you build/work trail you are among a select few. So you have worked on a fargin trail? Recognize that you are part of a select few, ie others do it too. Trails aren't rocket science. Lets enjoy Democracy and not feel the need for a Hitler like some of you seem to aspire to be.


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## locobaylor (Jun 19, 2008)

Ken in KC said:


> Not sure who "you guys" is refering to? I don't see anyone crapping on anyone elses efforts.


I want to crap on someone's efforts.....how do I do that again???


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## locobaylor (Jun 19, 2008)

I was just checking out the video forum, and there's video of a guy tearing up trails!!
Check it out!!!






The nerve!!!


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

If we all spent as much time on a trail crew as we are spending jaw jacking in this thread about such a minor issue, we'd all be better off. Most reasonable mountain bikers understand that wet trails are easily damaged. We're just paying ourselves lip service with this debate, there's no way to inform those who are ignorant. The best way to keep your trails in good shape is to get involved and repair the damage others have done. Use your energy to forget the things you can't change (like ignorant people riding sensitive trails in the wet) and work hard to change the things you can, like improving and armoring sensitive areas and making them as sustainable as you reasonably can.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Jim311 said:


> If we all spent as much time on a trail crew as we are spending jaw jacking in this thread about such a minor issue, we'd all be better off. Most reasonable mountain bikers understand that wet trails are easily damaged. We're just paying ourselves lip service with this debate, there's no way to inform those who are ignorant. The best way to keep your trails in good shape is to get involved and repair the damage others have done. Use your energy to forget the things you can't change (like ignorant people riding sensitive trails in the wet) and work hard to change the things you can, like improving and armoring sensitive areas and making them as sustainable as you reasonably can.


while trying to create as few new ignorant people as possible.


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

In case anyone needs a reminder what lengths anti-bikers will go to to make their case check this thread out about a current issue in Mass... http://nemba.org/forums/showthread.php?t=24987
Fells is a state park, apparently their 'Friends' non-profit organization is very anti-bike. The local NEMBA chapter is fighting for access, and a voice in trail management... There is more background info available elsewhere if you search for it.

p.s. This is the advocacy forum, right?


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## MallardMauler (Aug 4, 2009)

this thread makes me laugh!

you guys are hilarious!


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## bpressnall (Aug 25, 2006)

Preach'in to the choir.


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## stilesp (Jan 17, 2006)

In the latest issue that came in the mail yest this ad made the back cover of the mountain bike insert.


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## Raymo853 (Jan 13, 2004)

Isn't it funny my issue of some bike mag with the ad on the back and my IMBA Subaru discount letter came on the same day? Maybe I should go buy a Mazda 3 instead?


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## AWDfreak (Jan 28, 2007)

I know this is an old topic, but being a Subaru enthusiast, I just had to comment.



Ken in KC said:


> Some of you are acting like the entire company of Subaru are out clubbing baby seals and IMBA's coming along to help drink the blood.
> 
> Someone at a marketing company somewhere pitched an ad to someone in the Subaru marketing department. Neither of these people were mountain bikers but rather advertising professionals. Whoever the marketing/pr exec is that manages the relationship with IMBA and would be familiar with mountain biking wasn't involved in the decision making process.
> 
> ...


I think this post is the best and most neutral post in the thread. :thumbsup:

I do understand how painstakingly difficult it is to deal with trail damage out on our public parks due to mud. But I'm not going to lie, I love mud. I love driving in mud and I love riding in mud. 
But, I won't ride on a trail that's closed due to mud. I had a "trail" of my own when I was younger (had a bike, just not a "real" MTB) and I realized how easy it is to damage a trail when it is wet. It then becomes a very difficult process to restore what dirt was once there.

I saw this ad and smiled, and upon impulse bought the "Mountain Bike" magazine with the advertisement on it. This ad portrays the joy of riding in mud, however, considering how the general public will see it, I do understand why our image is at stake. Heck, it wasn't until I search the ad I realized what possible negative vibes it may give off.

Has anyone contacted Subaru of America yet? If not, I might as well if no one has yet.

EDIT: I just sent Subaru of America an email. They usually respond in 1-2 business days. I'll post up what Subaru of America has to say. In addition, I actually requested a Subaru representative to apologize specifically on this thread.

EDIT as of 4-7-2010:

I got a (somewhat confusing) response from Subaru of America:



> Thank you for your recent e-mail to Subaru of America, Inc. We appreciate you taking the time to contact us concerning our recent television commercial. Your comments have been forwarded to our marketing department for their review and consideration.
> 
> Please know that Subaru is proud to be the official vehicle of the International Mountain Bicycling Association (IMBA), a nonprofit organization based in Boulder, CO. Subaru sponsors the Subaru-IMBA Trail Care Crews - two teams that travel across the country in Subaru Outbacks encouraging responsible off-road cycling, supporting volunteer trailwork and promoting cooperation among trail users.
> 
> ...


Well, all they did was state their partners (which I'm sure we know about). Bleh...


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