# Why not "Gravel" a Hardtail



## vcyclist (Jan 21, 2004)

Another bike category that is calling my name to buy! Gravel Bike. So with all the hype why not just ride a fully rigid Hardtail mountain bike? You have the ability for a wide range of tire sizes and it seems all the gravel guys want bigger tires. You can run a suspension fork if you like and lock it out, you can ride it easily on single track, gravel and pavement. Perhaps I am missing something, educate me please.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

The geometry is a little weird for running drop bars and integrated shift/brake units.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

shhh, don't tell the wives you can ride gravel on a XC rigid/hardtail. if they hear you we may not have a good enough excuse for N+1. 

really, for long and/or high speed gravel rides, or if the bike will be used part time as a road bike, or as a cyclocross bike i think a gravel/cross bike is a better option. lighter, more aero etc. it's designed specifically for that environment and to be a versatile bike. 

yes, a XC bike can be made to be very similar. certain frames even work really well as drop bar XC bikes. hence the term "monstercross" and it's popularity. :thumbsup:


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

I do gravel races and ride lots on gravel on my HT with fast tires....it works really well but ultimately I'd like drop bars/lower aero position and lighter weight. 

I thought about going with a rigid fork...but I really want drop bars too. 

A CX or gravel bike w/ tubeless setup and light wheels is on my list of wants. 

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

FWIW, this is my next bike purchase: 2016 NEW full carbon aero road gravel frame

That frame with some 40mm deep carbon clinchers and 32mm file treads? Yes, please.


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## vcyclist (Jan 21, 2004)

Not saying to put drop bars on a hardtail, just use the flat bar or riser bar that you normally use. I just would like to see what people think, rather than buy a completely new bike, just put on some narrow 29er tires and run your hardtail. Whats the difference and like I said everyone seems to want wider tires on their gravel bikes.
I'm not saying I don't want a gravel bike, I already have a road bike, 5.5" travel mountain bike and a gravel bike might be cool, but what about setting up a super light hardtail for the same thing?


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Some folks do just roll mountain bikes on the roads. Geometry is important and tire choice is key...running fat knobby tires will suck and you'll be buying new ones every couple hundred miles...that is if you see much pavement. Gravel roads will eat them up too but not as fast. But if you are ok with the comfort of a mountain bike and can ride one for long distances or for 4-5 hours or more at a shot...go for it. I personally don't like it. I tried riding mountain bike on roads...paved and gravel. It's ok for 15-20 mile rides but nothing compares to a proper road/gravel road bike for that type of riding. That's where the geo comes in to play and the dropbars giving you more hand position options. Of course there's bars out there that will work better with a mountain bike that have hand position options. There's also some monstercross bikes one can consider. Something like the Salsa Cutthroat is pretty popular in the gravel scene from what I read. I've never seen one. Majority of the bikes i see are CX bikes or gravel bikes with a smattering of mountain bikes. The events I've seen it's about 80% gravel/CX bike to 20% mountain bike.


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## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

I don't want to ruin your N+1 justification either... but for a three-bike total solution I think you'll want something a bit closer to your all-mountan bike.

So, I'd definitely set up a lightweight hardtail for your uses, but I'd also go about it slightly differently. FWIW, I run a 5.7" travel all mountain bike, and it's stablemate is my Diamondback Overdrive Sport Carbon, which has seen some revisions.

That said, Maxxis Asspen's on a light 21mm IW rim present a remarkably good set of wheels for this application. Semislicks like those are really pretty decent for extended paved road, and worlds more comfortable on gravel and XC stuff - side bonus is that they're a hoot on loose over hardpack if you want to unleash your inner 5 year old and lay down hilarious skids.
The cheap taiwanese made carbon hardtails are a great base - there are some which are basically warranty-included rebrands. For the type of bike you're describing, you won't need boost, or even necessary a rear through axle, which saves lots of cash.
A 2x10 drivetrain is totally adequate for that use, and seeing what prices stuff like X0 cranksets, XT cassettes, and 10s Ultegra chains run, I'm really happy I've got that setup basically.
Suspension fork I'd say is a plus - considering that there are a lot of really good, genty used, and remarkably light 120mm travel forks, I'd still look that direction somewhat. A Reba RLT or Fox32 can be a great base (especially a ~2014 Fox32 for a bargain that needs servicing anyway - just price in a new damper cartridge and you'll able to have a top end fork for under $400). That said, carbon rigid fork is great for super-lightweight.


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

Here is my own personal 3 bike solution that should round out the year and keep me happy for quite awhile. More wheels and tire options make it happen with more popping up all the time!
1. 29er XC -100/120mm trail bike
2. Fatbike with 2 wheelsets - 4/5 in tires & plus size w/ 3-3.8 (3 season bike)
3. Gravel/CX/Road - Still looking at frames/bikes that accept 40c+ tire
I find its really not easy to build just 1 all-around bike that can do it all, just not possible, but more tire options on just a few adaptable frames should fit the bill!


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## tonyvt (Mar 26, 2010)

I set up my Rockhopper 29er with a rigid Surly steel fork and Nano 40C's and it rips right along on VT gravel roads.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

You don't NEED skinny tires for gravel. I run a bald Bonty XR1 2.1 (guessing till I can check) out back, and a 2.2 Race King up front....they are fast and ride fantastic as well as still rocking on single-track. 

I wanna get smaller tires primarily to drop as much rotational weight as I can...however I hate riding skinny tires on a mtb, it's too weird, that and I really like how my bigger tubeless tires ride. 

As far as drop bars....I am actually more comfy on my flat bars (hands) on long rides than drop bars. I recently did a 62mile gravel ride on my HT and it was great. I tend to struggle more on my road bikes...seems u NEED multiple positions with drop bars lol. Never needed it on mtb. 

Now I still want drop bars for gravel...for that lower more aero setup... Plus I do like riding drop bars for road/gravel even though I hate how my SRAM hoods feel. 

Really though a CX bike would be really nice. 


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

The other thing I really love, which some will hate ... is having a triple up front. 

I love using the that 42 chainring, u need it on the downs for sure, flats, staying out of the 11 as much as possible, and it's fun to climb with when it legs are good. 

Bump down to the 32 when u don't want to push the 42 on climbs, and the 24 is for when it gets really steep, and or your legs are struggling or cramping. 





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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Why not ride a mountain bike, and also make route selections that keep you on singletrack? 

I've been flirting with gravel for a while. I don't think I $1000 like it, so I've been using my 'cross bike. I haven't done an organized event; I hear they spend extended amounts of time on pavement and on pretty easy gravel. So people are going fast enough for aero to count and staying in the same position long enough for the ergonomics of drop bars to count.

On my rides, I'm typically starting at home, riding to a mountain I climb via gravel road, and coming back via roads. I'd appreciate wider tires - I'm not even confident I could run a 40 - but for the asphalt road sections, I appreciate being on a road bike, and the gravel and trail sections (of course I usually sneak in a little singletrack) are mellow enough by MTB standards that I'm okay being on a road bike.

I also enjoy the novelty and challenge - stuff that's not that interesting when I'm on a mountain bike, including a hardtail, is more engaging again.

It's not exactly an N+1 bike for me since I gave up my tight-clearance road bike a while ago. I had narrow slicks on my 'cross bike for a while, and bought 'cross tires again for an event before the access to lots of dirt roads got me curious about that type of riding. It's more the tight-clearance road bike that's redundant to me. Though since I can't commute by bike anymore, my former commuter has been doing the skinny slicks job this summer.

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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Gravel on a hardtail is like sex with a condom, it does work but it's not the real thing either


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Steel Calf said:


> Gravel on a hardtail is like sex with a condom, it does work but it's not the real thing either


your experience makes me sad. if your not having fun your doing it wrong


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

I actually agree...mountain bike on gravel certainly works...but it's better on a gravel road/CX bike. IMO of course. But in all honesty...I'm not much of a mountain biker. I enjoy it. But do it little. I'm on the road whether paved or unpaved 90% of the time. So for me it was a no brainer to get a gravel bike. And then a SS gravel bike.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

zephxiii said:


> The other thing I really love, which some will hate ... is having a triple up front.
> 
> I love using the that 42 chainring, u need it on the downs for sure, flats, staying out of the 11 as much as possible, and it's fun to climb with when it legs are good.
> 
> ...


Triples have their place. I run a 36T out back with a compact double rather than a triple but regardless how you do it...low gearing is definitely appreciated when it's needed.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

Nubster said:


> Triples have their place. I run a 36T out back with a compact double rather than a triple but regardless how you do it...low gearing is definitely appreciated when it's needed.


Yeah, I was thinking about a compact double when I was writing that... Thinking about how it would it would work etc. (I have road bikes with compact). Seems like might want a larger cassette or something.

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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I have my 'cross bike set up with a 46/34 crank and have been using a 11-32 cassette for gravel and trail riding.

I have mixed feelings about lower gears. I think of gravel more as road plus than trail minus, and super deep gearing doesn't really fit that. I don't have the parts kicking around to lower the gears any more. I'm generally riding on smooth enough roads and trails to pedal out of the saddle.

OTOH, I was pretty thoroughly out of gears yesterday. And the bike is a tool, so whatever my aesthetic idea of what seems right on a road bike may be, if having some lower gears would help, maybe I should bring on the trekking crank.

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## bambosz (Feb 18, 2008)

Hi guys, interesting discussion. I'm digging in the topic to build one in my garage finally. 
However, I found the one this summer in Spain, ready to buy, which was very close to perfection - IMHO of course  http://www.finnacycles.com/finna_landscape.html
Try to imagine it without all these extra bags and look at the weels and tire size


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Looks very Salsa Fargo-like

http://salsacycles.com/bikes/fargo


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## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

I run a SS 29er on gravel. I have had cross bikes with "gravel" tires previously. I MUCH prefer the 29er. Better brakes and geo for me so I decent far faster. Tires are far more comfortable and roll plenty fast. Maybe the gravel out my way is chunkier than where others ride, or maybe I am a pansy.


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## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> The geometry is a little weird for running drop bars and integrated shift/brake units.


Salsa found a way. The Fargo is pretty competent. Plus there is a nice thread in the Vintage forum on drop bar MTBs. It is doable.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

OP, there's also similar conversation here

http://forums.mtbr.com/cyclocross/why-drop-bars-cyclocross-1019090.html


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> FWIW, this is my next bike purchase: 2016 NEW full carbon aero road gravel frame
> 
> That frame with some 40mm deep carbon clinchers and 32mm file treads? Yes, please.


Were you able to pick up one these aero gravel frames? I emailed them and received this reply: 
thank you for your kind email.
I am Nancy from hongfu bikes.

the frame FM028 is not available any more.

if you are interesting in our other frame.

please let me know.

I will send more information to you.


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## fritZman (Jan 9, 2004)

khardrunner14 said:


> I run a SS 29er on gravel. I have had cross bikes with "gravel" tires previously. I MUCH prefer the 29er. Better brakes and geo for me so I decent far faster. Tires are far more comfortable and roll plenty fast. Maybe the gravel out my way is chunkier than where others ride, or maybe I am a pansy.


I've recently come to the same conclusion. I have had many CX bikes and a currently have a really nice Redline Conquest Carbon with Schwalbe's awesome 35c G-One tires. But after (tens of?) thousands of miles over a good 7+ years I really can't seem to enjoy it as much as a flat bar.

Gravel/drop bar setup will be faster (~3-5kph). Most prefer the multiple hand positions of drop bars - I personally really couldn't get any more/less comfortable.

MTB/flat bars offer more speed & control in sketch, more upright posture to actually see and comfortably look around, and the ability to handle a broader range of terrain/conditions (sand/rough/snow/loose). I also like how flat bars recruits more upper body when out of the saddle.

The end of CX/drop bar for me was when I realised I don't care how fast I'm going so long as the effort was consistent. I don't ride a lot of pavement - frankly I prefer to ride the gravel shoulder as it's somewhat quieter and likely quite a bit safer (very little paved shoulders in my Province).


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## Chad_M (Jul 11, 2013)

Gearing can be a limiting factor. My mtb is set up 1x10. Even a 1x11 setup wouldn't have the high speed ratios needed like my CX bike has.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

fritZman said:


> MTB/flat bars offer more speed & control in sketch, more upright posture to actually see and comfortably look around, and the ability to handle a broader range of terrain/conditions (sand/rough/snow/loose). I also like how flat bars recruits more upper body when out of the saddle.


Riding in the drops offers a LOT of control in the sketch. And as far as upright...I can get more upright on my drop bar than I can on my flat bar due to my hands being closer together. When I'm riding on the flat bars my hands are way further apart causing my chest to be closer to the bar thus not able to sit as upright. Sure...you can certainly hold the flat bar closer to the center and get the same effect...but that's not how the bar is designed to be used. The drop bar has that area of the bar that's intended to be held. Arms are longer pushing you further from the bar letting you get more upright.

As far as climbing or getting more power with flat bars...I recently set new climb PR's using a drop bar crushing some of my climb times previously set with a flat bar. I get way more power with my hands turned palms facing each other as they are when in the drops than I do with my palms down towards the ground like they are on a flat bar. The drops also get my hands closer to my body which puts them in a more powerful position. The further your hands are from your body...the less strength/power you have. At least for me.

But...bottom line...the best bar is the one you are most comfortable on and the one that provides you with the comfort and ability to produce the power you need. For some...it's flat. Some it's drops. Some it's some wonky bar with weird bends and curves and bull horns and whatever the hell else people think of doing to them.


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## Salamander Whisperer (Apr 14, 2013)

I rode gravel for several years on a steel Niner rigid hardtail with Jones Loop H-bars and 1.9" tires and it was awesome. Handlebars were comfy and offered many hand positions and tons of control. I had 2x gearing so I had a very low gear for climbing and also plenty of top end speed. 

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## rusheleven (Jan 19, 2012)

A Quick Ride on Cannondale?s New Slate All-Road Suspension Road Bike | The Radavist

Cannondale thought the same.

Personally that kills the fun. meh.


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## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

zephxiii said:


> The other thing I really love, which some will hate ... is having a triple up front.


Personally I like a triple. The new fad of 1 X is just that a fad. Everything comes full swing eventually. Remember how steel was dead? Now almost every mfg has new steel offerings. The same thing will happen to the triple.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

There's a difference between offering a couple steel frames to capture the nostalgia/mystical ride feel market and switching back to offering primarily steel.

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## miatagal96 (Jul 5, 2005)

There is no reason you can't ride a hardtail on gravel. If it puts a smile on your face, do it!

I choose my CX bike over my hard tail for gravel for a couple of reasons: 1) my hard tail 26 lbs, vs about 18 lbs for my CX bike, 2) gravel roads in my area are in pretty good shape (most can be ridden on a road bike, but more fun on a CX), 3) my hard tail is a 26-er, so fewer good gravel tire choices, 4) I like the curly bars and I love riding my CX bike in tamer single-track, and 5) the gearing on my CX bike is designed for gravel (34-50 up front and 32 in rear). I love, love, love my hard-tail - just not on the road. 

My answers might be different if I had a light-weight race hardtail (like the Specialized Fate.)

p.s. a previous post in this thread referred to the Salsa Cutthroat - looks like a cool bike for those who like curly bars!


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## RashadF (May 26, 2016)

miatagal96 said:


> There is no reason you can't ride a hardtail on gravel. If it puts a smile on your face, do it!
> 
> I choose my CX bike over my hard tail for gravel for a couple of reasons: 1) my hard tail 26 lbs, vs about 18 lbs for my CX bike, 2) gravel roads in my area are in pretty good shape (most can be ridden on a road bike, but more fun on a CX), 3) my hard tail is a 26-er, so fewer good gravel tire choices, 4) I like the curly bars and I love riding my CX bike in tamer single-track, and 5) the gearing on my CX bike is designed for gravel (34-50 up front and 32 in rear). I love, love, love my hard-tail - just not on the road.
> 
> ...


I have been looking into this quite a bit since both gravel racing and XC/XCM racing interest me a lot these days (moving away from exclusively riding road for a number of reasons). In every video of a gravel race that I watch, it looks like at least a 3rd of the field is on hardtails or mtbs. The idea makes sense to me if you are riding trails as much as you ride gravel, why not get a bike that can handle both? Maybe if you ride road and gravel more, then I guess a gravel bike makes the most sense there. It comes down to the terrain you enjoy riding the most IMO. It also looks like gravel racing on a hardtail works just fine for Jeremiah Bishop:

Dirty BikenetiCrit Combines Cyclocross, Gravel and Criterium Racing, Attracts Top Talent and Costumes - Cyclocross Magazine - Cyclocross News, Races, Bikes, Photos, Videos

There's also a guy in this neck of the woods named Jeff Clayton that does more than hold his own in gravel races on a Specialized hardtail. The guy wins and podiums regularly from what I understand.


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## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

I think the only ways a cx/gravel bike may be faster is if the gravel race is smooth gravel or a lot of pavement with a few sectors. If your averaging something like 10-15mph and have some single track, chunk gravel, or mud then a HT will probably be faster. 

That said I am debating my SS HT (most likely) or my sscx for hillybilly roubiax this year. Yeah probably HT.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

It comes down to tires, gearing, and weight. If you can take a HT mtb, put a rigid carbon fork on it, some 1.8s, and gear it up enough there is no reason it can't keep up for "gravel" rides. As mentioned above, J. Bishop rides a HT in our local gravel race here in central VA "Monstercross" and actually, last year the race was won by a guy on a full-susp mtb (with narrow tires and I'm sure the susp. locked out) - this course doesn't have much pavement.


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## Highland (Jun 24, 2013)

I never would have considered a gravel bike before I started riding a road bike. Now that I ride road bikes more often than mountain bikes, there's something about drop bars that is addictive. On my hardtail mountain bike, I ride mostly fire roads and rail trails. A CX or gravel bike would be perfect for these types of rides, especially rides over 40+ miles. Plus, a gravel bike would give me a good excuse to buy another bike. :thumbsup:


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## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

Yeah nothing wrong with gravel bikes/cx bikes. Obviously I have and enjoy one. Not convinced it is faster on the off pavement surfaces we have in my area though.


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## 1242Vintage (Dec 7, 2013)

I ran a 1x11 29er hardtail at my last gravel race. Had a set of narrow Spesh Renegade tires on the bike. Track was pretty rough with some rugged descents. With my limited skills the hardtail gave me more confidence on the descents. I did feel some pain in the flatland and for sure was slower on the climbs but not sure a gravel bike would have made that any better.


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## EBG 18T (Dec 31, 2005)

Maybe I'm too traditional, but I prefer a drop bar bike for gravel use.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I think the crop of "mostercross" bikes is great for this....essentially a HT mtb with a rigid fork and drops plus appropriate gearing.


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## Tamu8104 (May 27, 2006)

It all depends on your gravel and your skills. I've race CX a lot and spent time on singletrack on a CX bike. Since I'm comfortable on dropbars in tougher conditions, I'd rather a dropbar gravel bike over a MTB all the time. The only time I might think about a MTB would be something with a lot of heavy mud or sand like the HillyBilly Roubaix.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm going to turn my 2013 Scale 970 w/ almost 7000 miles into a Monstercross rig someday when i get a newer HT. 

On another note: Just got my first CX bike and will be doing first gravel ride on it tomorrow. Will be interesting since I've been used to riding HT on gravel all the time. 

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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Tamu8104 said:


> It all depends on your gravel and your skills. I've race CX a lot and spent time on singletrack on a CX bike. Since I'm comfortable on dropbars in tougher conditions, I'd rather a dropbar gravel bike over a MTB all the time. The only time I might think about a MTB would be something with a lot of heavy mud or sand like the HillyBilly Roubaix.


Agreed - some folks just aren't as comfortable on drop bar bikes offroad and like you, I'm fine on my gravel with my drop bars and prefer it over my mtb...even in somewhat rough conditions. I have no issues riding my drop bar bike on singletrack...not really that much different than the bikes I rode back in the early '90s...geo is probably about the same as is bar width.


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## The_Mickstar (Apr 22, 2008)

I race my Kona Unit (SS) for gravel. The only "non typical" XC MTB parts on it are the tires (Panaracer Gravel King SK 700x40 tubeless) and the aerobars (Yes, really.) I've changed out a few other parts as well, but still "typical" XC MTB parts. Still running flat bars (with Ergon grips with short bar ends).

I've raced multiple 100+ milers and a couple of 150+ milers on it with very good results. It's comfortable & has tons of mud clearance. Yes, it's heavy. But gravel is a strong man's game (physically & mentally). I don't sweat the extra weight as long as I'm comfortable.


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## comptiger5000 (Jun 11, 2007)

This kind of usage is exactly why I keep fast top end gears on my HT. It makes a good all-around bike that way, so if I'm going somewhere, I don't run into the "which bike do I bring?" problem. 

If I end up riding pavement, rail trails, gravel, etc. it'll do it (and it's comfy). If I end up on singletrack, it'll do it. And the 48-11 top gear and close gear spacing means I can have plenty of speed when conditions allow and sprint when I need to.


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## Highland (Jun 24, 2013)

I like having the options of a 29er hardtail with platform pedals and gravel bike with clipless pedals. Here's my new gravel bike, Motobecane Omni Strada Comp:










As I said before... drop bars are excellent and ideal for longer rides, in my experience. But I really like the 29er for casual, leisurely rides with the family on rail trails.


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## azimiut (Feb 21, 2014)

Im going to have to put some gears back on my gravel bike. It is SS now, but I am moving and will have a significantly longer commute that I will ride. half is gravel half is paved. I love my gravel bike, I built it myself, but I have flat bars on it. I have never rode drop bars on a bike but that might be in the near future. gonna be about a 30 mile commute each way. I have a hard tail, a FS, and my gravel bike. I have ridden my hardtail on canals and what not but the gravel bike is better for it. I have even done light single track with it. plus its a good excuse to have to buy another bike.

before/after


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## Chippertheripper (Sep 10, 2014)

After I sold my fairdale I did a gravel race with my grails mounted on my monkey.








I have since purchased a proper cx bike (which I mostly use for farting around on singletrack and dirt roads).








It does fit 40's for the record. I put a riddler 45 on the back just to see, and it does fit, I just like the extra room to romp the 37 offers. My studs are 40mm, and they ride no prob. 
(For the kids above still looking for a frame)


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## Yuppie3689 (Apr 5, 2017)

*MTB To Cyclocross or Gravel*

whether it is included in that category


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

*Timber Spork*









The "Timber Spork" ,my converted to drop bars Kish 29er hardtail with a 100mm travel Lefty.

2x11: 44/32 [11-40]
Shimano hdraulic disc


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## mete (Apr 20, 2007)

Cube Attention 16" with Lefty forks and 40 WTB Nano tires.


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

Damn, that is cool looking. Weight? Looks like a huge reach to the hoods though.


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## mete (Apr 20, 2007)

deuxdiesel said:


> Damn, that is cool looking. Weight? Looks like a huge reach to the hoods though.


Sorry, I have no Idea about the exact weight, but it should be below 22pd. The reach is no problem for me, I am about 6"3.


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

mete said:


> Cube Attention 16" with Lefty forks and 40 WTB Nano tires.


Really nice setup. Just can't get over the look of the small frame - seat tube and the extra long seatpost....that thing looks a foot and a half long! Maybe a larger size frame would be better? Reminds me of a diy Slate - very cool!


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## mete (Apr 20, 2007)

NH Mtbiker said:


> Really nice setup. Just can't get over the look of the small frame - seat tube and the extra long seatpost....that thing looks a foot and a half long! Maybe a larger size frame would be better? Reminds me of a diy Slate - very cool!


The frame size was chosen for the correct top tube length. In the case of a larger frame, the reach would be too long for me when using dropbars, especially because the stem must feature a minimum length of 90mm in order to fit the Lefty. The long seat post (length ~13.5") might look a little bit "special", but it is not really a problem, it is rather advantageous due to providing a lot of flex...


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

^ what clamp did you use to adapt the Lefty? Project 321?


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## mete (Apr 20, 2007)

*OneSpeed* said:


> ^ what clamp did you use to adapt the Lefty? Project 321?


Lefty 4all steerer tube. The head tube features a length of 4", in combination with the Reset EC44 headset it exactly fits the distance of 5.4" desired by the Lefty.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I rode a gravel race on my rigid Soma Juice. I switched to some "narrow" flat bars with bar ends, a taller gear, and some Schwalbe Thunder Burts. Worked great!


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## wjphillips (Oct 13, 2008)

That cube looks great even with small frame. How does it handle?


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2018)

vcyclist said:


> Not saying to put drop bars on a hardtail, just use the flat bar or riser bar that you normally use. I just would like to see what people think, rather than buy a completely new bike, just put on some narrow 29er tires and run your hardtail. Whats the difference and like I said everyone seems to want wider tires on their gravel bikes.
> I'm not saying I don't want a gravel bike, I already have a road bike, 5.5" travel mountain bike and a gravel bike might be cool, but what about setting up a super light hardtail for the same thing?


You're right where I am with Gravel. I did my first race on a Fargo (albeit, that is a drop bar bike) but there were lots of riders on skinny tire MTBs and a good handful of fatbikes. If it fits, your arms are comfortable on whatever bars you have, the weight/rolling resistance isn't more than you want to deal with, I say go for it. Especially if you have a cool old school bike (bike spotting is my favorite part of big events).


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2018)

mete said:


> Cube Attention 16" with Lefty forks and 40 WTB Nano tires.


That thing screams "Street Trials meets Time Trials." Love it.


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## tablatom (Feb 8, 2018)

I have a Voodoo Bizango 29er, great budget hard tail. £280 from eBay. 

I put Tioga PowerStud 6 Barends on it. You can get very aero with them and many hand positions. 

Tyre wise i use anything from Voyager Hyper 700 x 40c (very fast road tyres), Schwalbe Hurricanes (very fast gravel/light off road tyres) and 2.3 and 2.6 MTB tyres.

I can ride all day with the Tioga PowerStud 6 Barends. I have no data to show, it does weigh 13kg, but with the Voyager hypers it really flies on the road.

Next tyre combo is going to be 29+ front with rigid fork and 2.4 rear.


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## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

Agree. i built a niner emd with a rigid soul cycles fork and jones bar. 30 x 11-40. regardless of tires i can say that i can remain pretty comfortable on this for a pretty long time over any drop bike ive ridden say over the same distance. the bars really great


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

Well let me add my two cents. I have a soma wolverine with drop bars and a B side with Jones bars. As of late February early March of this year I have been riding the B-side on ALL of my gravel rides. The wolverine is hanging on the wall. Every single gravel post you read is about people talking about having to run drop bars on gravel. It’s really a personal preference but to think that you have to run drop bars to ride gravel is the biggest bunch of BS floating around out there. I am actually having 10 times more fun riding my mountain bike with a rigid fork, Jones H bars, a one x 10 drivetrain, and some 2.2 to 2.4 tires. The bigger tires roll so much better over the gravel we have around here than any 32 to 42 size tire that I would be running on my Wolverine. They also roll just fine on pavement. I have no problem keeping up with my riding buddies on their 700c narrow tire gravel rigs. So yes a rigid Hardtail mountain bike that is set up properly does just fine and is a heck of a lot of fun. Don’t let the popular majority sway you. Ride what you want and have fun doing it.


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## tablatom (Feb 8, 2018)

*Absolutely*



iowamtb said:


> Well let me add my two cents. I have a soma wolverine with drop bars and a B side with Jones bars. As of late February early March of this year I have been riding the B-side on ALL of my gravel rides. The wolverine is hanging on the wall. Every single gravel post you read is about people talking about having to run drop bars on gravel. It's really a personal preference but to think that you have to run drop bars to ride gravel is the biggest bunch of BS floating around out there. I am actually having 10 times more fun riding my mountain bike with a rigid fork, Jones H bars, a one x 10 drivetrain, and some 2.2 to 2.4 tires. The bigger tires roll so much better over the gravel we have around here than any 32 to 42 size tire that I would be running on my Wolverine. They also roll just fine on pavement. I have no problem keeping up with my riding buddies on their 700c narrow tire gravel rigs. So yes a rigid Hardtail mountain bike that is set up properly does just fine and is a heck of a lot of fun. Don't let the popular majority sway you. Ride what you want and have fun doing it.


Couldn't agree more. 
I have a CX bike. 
But my favourite gravel bike is my Voodoos Bizango 29er with home made Jones bars (loads of hand positions including aero tuck),
2.35 Schwalbe Big ones, the ultimate gravel tyre 
Ultra fast rolling and huge volume. 
The bike cost me peanuts off eBay.

Jones bars really stable off road too.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

*Why not "Gravel" a Hardtail*

At this time, I am using my hardtail for gravel rides.


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## The Boz (Sep 28, 2011)

There is a never ending combination and spectrum of bikes, and here are just a few:

Downhill full suspension
Enduro Full suspension
Trail/All mountain full suspension
XC full suspension
Hardtail with suspension fork
Hardtail with rigid fork and flat bars
Hardtail Rigid with drop bars (monster cross)
Gravel bike with drop bars and fat tires (ala Salsa Cutthroat or Curve GMX)
Gravel Bike with skinnier tires (traditional gravel bike)
CX bike 
Touring road bike, comfortable geometry possibly with fatter tires
Traditional all-around road bike
Racing road bike

The fun thing about the last few years is all the new categories being created, all depending on the type of riding you want to do. Personally I have a rigid hardtail 29er mountain bike that works well on the bumpy gravel routes with stretches single track mixed in. On traditional gravel routes with smooth gravel roads and healthy portions of paved road, it would be quite slow with the fatter mountain bike tires. 

Throwing a rigid fork on a hardtail is a great budget gravel bike, but it would definitely fall on the heavier-duty purpose spectrum of the scale. A rigid hardtail can be a great jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none bike. You likely won't be the fastest on gravel routes or single track routes, but it can handle both very well.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> The geometry is a little weird for running drop bars and integrated shift/brake units.


If you find an early design 29er, you'll find the geometry is just fine. They were built before the fashion for long suspension forks lead to slacker headangles.

Here's one I brewed several years ago before I had heard of gravel bikes...

I built it specifically for gravel roads and the sometimes long haul on road to get to them.



On-One Scandal with Scandium frame. I use 2.35" Schwalbe Big Apples because I find large volume slick tyres run at lower pressures give good grip because they conform to the surface, and are more comfortable than mid volume lugged tyres at higher pressures. Also has the benefit of running nicely on the road. I used a short dropbar because it just happened to be the right diameter for mtb controls.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Nothing wrong with riding a hardtail on gravel IMO. 

Three of the four 29er's in my stable (one hard tail and two single speeds) are "older geometry" (like 6-12 years ago) so any of them can run however I wish just fine. My FS bike is a mutated 2014 with bits, slackness and rear triangle that bring it more inline with 2016+ "XC/mountain" tech.

I run knobby tires everywhere (3,000-4,000 miles per year) and have no problem riding 90+ miles a day on mixed surfaces, rocks, dirt, city urban assaults, races, bike packing, etc. Tires are good for a couple of years (rear wears out a bit faster) and depending on what I'm riding, there are some ways to increase cushiness:

Rigid fork with 3.0" tubeless tire up front
Alloy rims and a bit more flex in spokes/wheel builds
Morgaw saddle (3 options for rubber shock absorbers connecting the rails to the post)
Carbon post for more flex
Alloy handlebar materials (stainless steel or Ti are my personal favorites)

Only reason I'd consider a gravel/CX bike would be to get to work faster if my commute ends up 30+ miles round trip (which may be the case relatively soon).


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## tablatom (Feb 8, 2018)

As shown here 




its a no brainer that fatter tyres are faster the rougher the surface,
plus all the comfort and superior handling.

If Schwalbe put a couple of rows of small knobblies on the outside of their G-BIG ONE 29 x 2.35
https://www.schwalbe.com/en-GB/offroad-reader/schwalbe-g-one-speed.html
for me it would be the ultimate gravel tyre.
In the dry it doesn't need it, but hit any off-road stuff with damp and the tiny bumps on its tred are useless.
At 530gm's, (snakeskin so its plenty tough ) add knobblies on the side it might go up to 600gms. The speed of this tyre is just amazing, and it has huge volume as it has no knobblies so its 2.35 width is pure volume.
Its quite amazing going so fast off road on gravel with so much comfort.


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

I think the hardtail vs. gravel decision comes down to 3 things.
1.) Terrain- % of dirt vs. % of road, and whether descents are technical or rutted.
More dirt and more technical descents make the hardtail a more valid choice.
2.) Rider skill and comfort level.
3.) Weight. If your bikes are radically different in weight- The lighter bike tends to become the better choice unless there is not much vertical.
That said, it is possible to make a really light hardtail these days.
My hardtail is light enough (18.5 lb. with a suspension fork) so it is less that 1 lb. heavier than my gravel bike- I could even take more weight off the hardtail if I go down to a lighter set of tires.
For that reason I will often choose my hardtail over the gravel bike when there is a lot of dirt-
Gravel bike makes more sense to me when there is more road and/or average speeds are higher.


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

Clint Gibbs does a nice comparison between his Niner gravel/CX and hardtail:





Personally I'm still debating what to get for my second bike primarily with commuting, plus some backup gravel rides when the main MTB trails are washed out.


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## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

smoothmoose said:


> Clint Gibbs does a nice comparison between his Niner gravel/CX and hardtail:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He usually does pretty good comparo's but I am not super happy with this one yet. His "gravel" is super smooth looking and he doesn't modify his ht to adapt to gravel at all. Throw on some better tires, a lighter fork and a few other mods and the gap closes significantly. Put him on seriously rutted gravel and the ht may actually be faster. That has been the case at Hillybilly Roubiax most years.


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## Jonny Fritz (Jun 1, 2018)

*trek procaliber drop bar 29er*

I have never been happier. Been riding this for a year now. It's was a fun build, some twists and turns to problem solve the details. Flexy seat post, 45c tires, 100m fox....it just goes. all shimano, RS685 levers, tanpan, XT derailleurs. this bike is comfy, never misses a beat, shifts on the dime.


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

Interesting build - what’s the HA? Is it twitchy with drops and a short stem?


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Nubster said:


> Some folks do just roll mountain bikes on the roads. Geometry is important and tire choice is key...running fat knobby tires will suck and you'll be buying new ones every couple hundred miles...that is if you see much pavement. Gravel roads will eat them up too but not as fast.


I dunno about that; if I ride right out of my garage to the local trails it's at least 40% pavement/gravel and my Maxxis 2.5 lasted 1000 miles and still going. So that's 400-500 miles on pavement/gravel with a knobby tire and it did OK. Not that I prefer to do that, but that's what I live with getting to dirt and it's fine. And believe it or not I prefer a skinny 1/2 worn MTB tire on the front on pavement to a hybrid tire. If the center knobs are worn down just right it's actually more stable and straight than a more curved bald tire.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2018)

I agree. I've commuted on both regular knobs (i.e. conti race kings on a Fargo) and gravel tires (last were Happy Mediums). The race kings gave me about 4,000 miles with one rotation and would have lasted longer but for weather checking. My Happy Mediums last for a season. My commutes are typically 1/3 each gravel/crushed lime/pavement. I think gravel eats tires the quickest of those three tires and the shop that replaces our 60K tires every 25K would agree.


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## Jonny Fritz (Jun 1, 2018)

*trek procaliber drop bar 29er*

no twitch. stock set up. i also ride it as a mtn bike and swap it over. the short stem is just that, the reach to the bar is the same as my road bike.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

Jonny Fritz said:


> I have never been happier. Been riding this for a year now. It's was a fun build, some twists and turns to problem solve the details. Flexy seat post, 45c tires, 100m fox....it just goes. all shimano, RS685 levers, tanpan, XT derailleurs. this bike is comfy, never misses a beat, shifts on the dime.


Interesting built. Very nice for sure!


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

*Why not "Gravel" a Hardtail*



j102 said:


> At this time, I am using my hardtail for gravel rides.


Still using my hardtail, but I am looking for a Cyclocross/Gravel bike.


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

The Boz said:


> There is a never ending combination and spectrum of bikes, and here are just a few:
> 
> Downhill full suspension
> Enduro Full suspension
> ...


All these years I've been riding a road touring bike (with wider tires) on crappy roads, and now they have a name for it....."gravel" bike.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

twodownzero said:


> All these years I've been riding a road touring bike (with wider tires) on crappy roads, and now they have a name for it....."gravel" bike.


And?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

TiGeo said:


> And?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I just thought it interesting that the poster included touring bikes in his list of potential "gravel" bikes.

"Cross" bikes were once rim brake only and limited to pretty skinny tires. And their gearing sucked. Despite this, there was still incredible demand for drop bar bikes with more tire clearance and they sold like crazy.

Today there are so many options, it's really just great to see, especially because the tiny differences in geometry really do make a difference. There's a ton of overlap between them, but whereas I bought my touring bike because it was once the closest thing available, now there are a ton of disc brake, drop bar bikes with a ton of tire clearance. So many that it would make the decision a lot more difficult today, but I'd also have a more specialized tool for the job.

I have a touring bike I have never toured on, that can take me to work, finish a long brevet, and climb some mountains for a training ride--in the same week.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2018)

twodownzero said:


> All these years I've been riding a road touring bike (with wider tires) on crappy roads, and now they have a name for it....."gravel" bike.


I think the typical "Gravel" bike will clear a wider tire than the typical "Touring" bike. But that's the history of all competitive cycling. Cyclocross didn't start with special Cyclocross bikes, neither did Gran Fondo or MTB. They were all raced first on adapted biked with specialized bikes following later. My "gravel" bike is a Lynskey Urbano, which is a commuter bike which they bill as an all around bike, but is essentially their Cross bike with touring bike cable routing.


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## mrpercussive (Apr 4, 2006)

Love mine! Built mine before gravelbike was a thing... ride a bunch of stuff from road to straight up dh on mine... doesnt do anything fast... but does it all... well almost...


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Other than fashion pedantry, there's no reason not to adapt any type of bike for gravel use if it will perform the way you want.

It can be done from different directions, eg take a CX or hybrid or a hardtail and set it up for gravel. 

A pure CX is a bike designed for short term, ie one hour races, so its riding position needs modified for comfort on longer stretches unless you are used to spending long periods in the drops. That is simply a matter of bars/stem/steerer combinations, and otherwise they are about perfect. Some folk might find their geometry a bit on the sharp end, but I like mine. The big flaw is limited space for a wider tyre. My Ti CX bike is good for an hour or two, but way less comfortable on a long ride than my wider tyre bikes. 

A hybrid generally has less sharp geometry, and that pays off on long rides when tiredness slows reactions. Hybrids generally are fitted with 35-40mm tyres, and very few can go wider than that. It's more tyre than a CX, but still a limitation on loose gravel etc. Their cockpit can be more difficult to set up with dropbars because the top tubes tend to be longer, but I've seen some very nice adaptations. However there generally is no problem getting the bars to the right height. 

Those of us who are creating their gravel bikes out of hardtails have probably gone the monstercross route earlier. As I've said in an earlier post, if you're fitting a rigid fork it's best to modify an older style hardtail because they have not had their steering geometry compromised for a long telescopic fork. (The exception is if you are going to fit a long telescopic fork .  ) With the hardtail you can fit very large tyres comparatively (mine are 2.35"). There are 2 disadvantages to modifying a hardtail. Mtbs tend to have very short steering heads, so getting dropbars fitting to the right height for offroad often results in severe uglification of the bike. The other disadvantage is the sloping toptube - if you have to shoulder the bike, it is much less comfortable for long periods than doing the same with a CX bike with its more horizontal TT. If you never carry your bike that's not an issue, but I like to cut across the odd pass with no tracks to get to the other side, and that can mean an hour or so of hike-a-bike. 

My ideal gravel bike will have a horizontal TT, steering head high enough for the tops of the dropbars to be level with the saddle, and tyre clearance for 2.35". 

I haven't seen a frame like that yet.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

*Why not "Gravel" a Hardtail*

The only disadvantage I see on using a hardtail is the gears. The biggest chainring on a hardtail is "normally" a 36T, 38T, and on a few cases, a 40T.
CX bikes and Gravel bikes comes with 46/36T or similar combinations. 
Tires, flat bars or drop bars, etc., all that can be changed, but they are limited in gears, if one is looking at going faster. 
That is my only issue with using a HT for gravel rides.


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

j102 said:


> The only disadvantage I see on using a hardtail is the gears. The biggest chainring on a hardtail is "normally" a 36T, 38T, and on a few cases, a 40T.
> CX bikes and Gravel bikes comes with 46/36T or similar combinations.
> Tires, flat bars or drop bars, etc., all that can be changed, but they are limited in gears, if one is looking at going faster.
> That is my only issue with using a HT for gravel rides.


Actually, I'm running 32/44 with a 10/42 SRAM cassette. The gear inches are higher and lower than CX bikes with 34/46 and an 11/32 or 34 cassette. The Wolftooth Goatlink makes it play nice with a Shimano 105 long cage rear derailleur.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

jms said:


> Actually, I'm running 32/44 with a 10/42 SRAM cassette. The gear inches are higher and lower than CX bikes with 34/46 and an 11/32 or 34 cassette. The Wolftooth Goatlink makes it play nice with a Shimano 105 long cage rear derailleur.


Is that on a Hardtail?


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## miles (Jan 6, 2004)

Velobike said:


> ... its riding position needs modified for comfort ... less comfortable on a long ride than my wider tyre bikes.


As a complete aside from the discussion, where are you from, Velobike? the "needs modified" sentence structure without a verb makes me think Appalachians, but then you went and spelled "tyre" as if you're non-American.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

miles said:


> As a complete aside from the discussion, where are you from, Velobike? the "needs modified" sentence structure without a verb makes me think Appalachians, but then you went and spelled "tyre" as if you're non-American.


Scotland & Australia. 

As for the gearing issue, I hadn't mentioned that because I usually run singlespeed. However gravel bikes do benefit from gears because running a ratio suitable for one aspect of the ride, eg set up for the gravel ride, leads to spinning out on the road.

I don't like derailleurs for any bike that is going to get rough usage, so my solution is a 3 speed hub. They are light, and have a barely noticeable weight increase over SS, with sufficient range for most riding I'd encounter on a gravel bike.

That may sound counter intuitive to people used to the wide range of a derailleur, but here's my reasoning.

Low gears - generally really steep stuff means tyre spin if you're on the skinnier spectrum of tyres, so ultra low is not worth the extra weight.
High gears - it's not a race bike, if I'm going better than 20mph, it's downhill or tailwind, and that's freewheeling time. 

If I set the direct gear on a Sturmey-Archer 3 speed to 60", that's about where SS bikes used offroad used to be set, then the low gear works out about what my SS mtb runs, and the high gear is around where my SS road bike is set. Or, as I like to put it, one gear for normal, one for uphill and headwinds, and one for downhill and tailwinds.

A gravel bike with wider tyres, eg 2.35", will be more capable on climbing loose stuff so may benefit from a lower gear because the wheel is less likely to break loose. Once you get over 3 speeds there's no light hubgears, so the choice is then derailleur or set up a dingle speed* arrangement, but with a 3 speed hub to get 6 gears (it's a faff).

One thing I'd like to add to my perfect gravel frame, is a quill stem. There's a good reason they went out of favour, the existing system is superior in many ways, but they had one outstanding feature which was really useful for bikes ridden in different terrain.

A quill stem can be loosened and raised quite a few inches, thus completely changing your riding position.

That is not something that is useful if all you do is ride exclusively road, or exclusively offroad, but if you ride gravel and road, then you can position your bars at the appropriate height in a few seconds.

That is what we used to do before the invention of the mtb. We rode our lightweight dropbar race bikes on road with the bars slammed right down, but when heading on to offroad, ie gravel and singletrack, we'd raise our bars so the top was level or slightly higher than our saddles.

*Dingle speed is a single speed term for a bike set up with 2 chainrings and two rear cogs, The chain is moved manually from one to the other. No tensioner is need because the cogs and chainrings are chosen so the same chain length suits either choice.


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

Yep. The range is amazing


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

jms said:


> Yep. The range is amazing


Nice!


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Lol the koolaid is spiked extra strong in this thread....


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Lol the koolaid is spiked extra strong in this thread....


You say something negative on just about every gravel bike thread.

Why not try adding something positive?

Alternatively, seeing as you obviously hate the term gravel bikes, why not just stay away from gravel bike threads and stop shitting on what other people enjoy?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Lol the koolaid is spiked extra strong in this thread....





Velobike said:


> You say something negative on just about every gravel bike thread.
> 
> Why not try adding something positive?
> 
> Alternatively, seeing as you obviously hate the term gravel bikes, why not just stay away from gravel bike threads and stop shitting on what other people enjoy?


Hacksaw - I agree with Velo on this. If you are not going to add anything relevant to this or other gravel bike threads, just don't post in them. There is no reason to be antagonistic.


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2018)

Velobike said:


> You say something negative on just about every gravel bike thread.
> 
> Why not try adding something positive?
> 
> Alternatively, seeing as you obviously hate the term gravel bikes, why not just stay away from gravel bike threads and stop shitting on what other people enjoy?


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Velobike again.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> Hacksaw - I agree with Velo on this. If you are not going to add anything relevant to this or other gravel bike threads, just don't post in them. There is no reason to be antagonistic.


Arite arite arite, got it, carry on gents.🙂


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

Agreed, a hardtail from just 4-5 years ago is very similar geo to a gravel frame today. Most rigid forks are 100 travel equivalent and you can keep your flat bars if you want. I also agree with higher volume smooth tires are a great option to lugged skinny gravel tires. Nice pic!


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

*My hardtail gravel*

An old Titus 11 frame with a White Brothers rigid fork


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Hardtail is more versatile than any "gravel" bike.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

*Why not "Gravel" a Hardtail*



HacksawReynolds said:


> Hardtail is more versatile than any "gravel" bike.


We already know that you have something against Gravel bikes. I thought you said you were going to stop.
I, for example, don't have any use for road bikes. But I don't trash them. I understand their place. I understand why people have road bikes and the reasons they like them and are so useful/important.
Are you going to stop trashing Gravel bikes? Or do we need to start ignoring you because you have become that guy that all he does is trash gravel bikes?


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2018)

A fat tire bike has wider tires than any gravel bike. Unless you gravel your fat bike. Then it's the same.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Hardtail is more versatile than any "gravel" bike.


Non sequitur and irrelevant/meaningless criterion unless you introduce the context.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

j102 said:


> We already know that you have something against Gravel bikes. I thought you said you were going to stop.
> I, for example, don't have any use for road bikes. But I don't trash them. I understand their place. I understand why people have road bikes and the reasons they like them and are so useful/important.
> Are you going to stop trashing Gravel bikes? Or do we need to start ignoring you because you have become that guy that all he does is trash gravel bikes?


Lighten up Francis. This thread is about hardtails as gravel bikes and I say they are more versatile. A hardtail MTB is more capable and depending on how you set it up won't give up much in the way in efficiency to a dirt road bike aka gravel bike.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

MattMay said:


> Non sequitur and irrelevant/meaningless criterion unless you introduce the context.


Ok there Poindexter.🤓


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Ok there Poindexter.?


Why can't you act like you're older than a pre-teen?


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## esXso (Sep 23, 2008)

Mainly because mtbs have too-long top tubes to run drop bars. Mtbs use handlebars that sweep backwards. Gravel, CX, and road bikes use handlebars that sweep forwards. There can be 100mm or more of discrepancy between those two different types of handlebars, thus the handlebar categories aren't interchangeable. Some people get away with it they have smaller mtb frame but most of the time it creates very excessive reach to run drop bars on a mtb.


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

esXso said:


> Mainly because mtbs have too-long top tubes to run drop bars. Mtbs use handlebars that sweep backwards. Gravel, CX, and road bikes use handlebars that sweep forwards. There can be 100mm or more of discrepancy between those two different types of handlebars, thus the handlebar categories aren't interchangeable. Some people get away with it they have smaller mtb frame but most of the time it creates very excessive reach to run drop bars on a mtb.


Makes sense. And drop bars are designed to be run with long stems otherwise the handling becomes too twitchy. I'm currently trying to make a large road frame fit better and 80-90mm seems to be the limit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

Haggis said:


> Makes sense. And drop bars are designed to be run with long stems otherwise the handling becomes too twitchy. I'm currently trying to make a large road frame fit better and 80-90mm seems to be the limit.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Drop bars can work well with an 80mm stem and the short reach drop bars available these days. And down in the drops, your hands are actually quite a bit behind the center line of of the bar/stem intersection.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Haggis said:


> Makes sense. And drop bars are designed to be run with long stems otherwise the handling becomes too twitchy. I'm currently trying to make a large road frame fit better and 80-90mm seems to be the limit.


I work on the measurement from the saddle nose and arrange my bar/stem combination so that my hands are in roughly the same distance from it regardless of what set up I'm using.

That usually means a very short stem on a hardtail. However, that's setting the dropbars up much higher than a CX or road race bike, its a touring bar position I want, not race.


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

Velobike said:


> I work on the measurement from the saddle nose and arrange my bar/stem combination so that my hands are in roughly the same distance from it regardless of what set up I'm using.
> 
> That usually means a very short stem on a hardtail. However, that's setting the dropbars up much higher than a CX or road race bike, its a touring bar position I want, not race.


So something like a 44-46cm wide bar and a 35mm stem?


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Haggis said:


> So something like a 44-46cm wide bar and a 35mm stem?


Whatever works for you.


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

Velobike said:


> Whatever works for you.


Way too twitchy for me


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

Who needs drop bars. I actually have gotten to the point where I don't like drop bars. They are not comfortable to me but everyone's different. Here is my ride. Talk about versatile. The rear rack is currently hanging on the wall but this photo was from April on a gravel MMR ride. FWIW I ride gravel, dirt, singletrack, and road with this set up. I am not going to win any races but I don't race anyways so I don't care about that. I just try and have fun and enjoy the ride.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

iowamtb said:


> Who needs drop bars. I actually have gotten to the point where I don't like drop bars. They are not comfortable to me but everyone's different. Here is my ride. Talk about versatile. The rear rack is currently hanging on the wall but this photo was from April on a gravel MMR ride. FWIW I ride gravel, dirt, singletrack, and road with this set up. I am not going to win any races but I don't race anyways so I don't care about that. I just try and have fun and enjoy the ride.
> 
> View attachment 1206630


Nice bike! Nice picture!


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

j102 said:


> Nice bike! Nice picture!


Thank you


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

iowamtb said:


> Who needs drop bars....


As I have said elsewhere, any bar that puts your hands in the position you want is the right bar. It is hard to get dropbars properly positioned on a hardtail mtb because most have a TT and head tube that are the wrong dimensions for them, so instead you need a stack of spacers or an adjustable stem, neither of which is ideal.

Shiggy of mtbtires.com used to have a very good guide to using drops on an mtb, but I can't find the link anymore.


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

Velobike said:


> As I have said elsewhere, any bar that puts your hands in the position you want is the right bar. It is hard to get dropbars properly positioned on a hardtail mtb because most have a TT and head tube that are the wrong dimensions for them, so instead you need a stack of spacers or an adjustable stem, neither of which is ideal.
> 
> Shiggy of mtbtires.com used to have a very good guide to using drops on an mtb, but I can't find the link anymore.


I have drops on a Wolverine. Not arguing your point. I personally get tired of everyone thinking a gravel grinder HAS to have drops. I am not a hater but when people ask about graveling a mountain bike, the conversation usually turns to what you said regarding drops on this style of bike so I just pointed out "who needs drops to ride gravel" ? All good here friend ?


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

iowamtb said:


> I have drops on a Wolverine. Not arguing your point. I personally get tired of everyone thinking a gravel grinder HAS to have drops. I am not a hater but when people ask about graveling a mountain bike, the conversation usually turns to what you said regarding drops on this style of bike so I just pointed out "who needs drops to ride gravel"  All good here friend 


I'm not arguing either. 

My opinion is that the beauty of gravel is that any bike can be a gravel bike, but I have opinions on what is the optimum shape and form of a gravel bike if you want something that can be ridden in comfort for long distances without having to scan the next few meters of road surface for the gotcha bits.

In order of importance the shape of the handlebars come a long way behind the tyres IMO.

Just to show I practise what I preach, this is what I rode for 24km on gravel yesterday...



That's a 70 year old Rudge roadster, a design from when most roads were gravel. Similar bikes are still being built and sold in 3rd world countries where there are few surfaced roads - maybe they are the real gravel bike. 

This what I mean by gravel



And when you get to the top of the hill, the scenery is the reward


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

Velobike said:


> I'm not arguing either.
> 
> My opinion is that the beauty of gravel is that any bike can be a gravel bike, but I have opinions on what is the optimum shape and form of a gravel bike if you want something that can be ridden in comfort for long distances without having to scan the next few meters of road surface for the gotcha bits.
> 
> ...


Beautiful!


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

j102 said:


> Nice bike! Nice picture!





iowamtb said:


> Who needs drop bars. I actually have gotten to the point where I don't like drop bars. They are not comfortable to me but everyone's different. Here is my ride. Talk about versatile. The rear rack is currently hanging on the wall but this photo was from April on a gravel MMR ride. FWIW I ride gravel, dirt, singletrack, and road with this set up. I am not going to win any races but I don't race anyways so I don't care about that. I just try and have fun and enjoy the ride.
> 
> View attachment 1206630


I was waiting for someone to bring up Jones bar or bikes. somehow people put some thicker tires on road bikes and think this is best for gravel. And even 40 mm or 45mm tire clearance, ha ha, not enough to actually be good on gravel.

My Giant Toughroad (flat bar hybrid bike) has clearance for up to ~2.25" tires. it basically is like an old-school rigid fork MTB. They also make a drop-bar version with the very same frame.

I just added Jones loop bar to my Toughroad and it gives me the stability of a flatbar, and the Aero of a drop bar. Should be a better gravel bike than what is sold as gravel bike. Has 5 useful hand positions, so it would make a great touring bike as well.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Steel Calf said:


> Gravel on a hardtail is like sex with a condom, it does work but it's not the real thing either


Can someone please explain exactly how riding on gravel is fun? Seriously. Please explain. Because I consider it about as fun as picking out the last bits of cheese on a day-old cardboard pizza box.


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

richj8990 said:


> Can someone please explain exactly how riding on gravel is fun? Seriously. Please explain. Because I consider it about as fun as picking out the last bits of cheese on a day-old cardboard pizza box.


To me it's more the dirt roads and the gravel roads are used as connecting points. But not everyone has as much MMR roads as I am blessed to ride. I am in bike hell with the nearest single track an hour and a half away or more. Ain't got time to load my bike up and drive just to ride. Sometimes sure but not on regular basis. And road sucks so what's left? Gravel ?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> Can someone please explain exactly how riding on gravel is fun? Seriously. Please explain.


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> View attachment 1207177
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man those pics are beautiful


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

richj8990 said:


> Can someone please explain exactly how riding on gravel is fun? Seriously. Please explain. Because I consider it about as fun as picking out the last bits of cheese on a day-old cardboard pizza box.


A bad day on gravel is still better than the best day on a moped.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

richj8990 said:


> Can someone please explain exactly how riding on gravel is fun? Seriously. Please explain. Because I consider it about as fun as picking out the last bits of cheese on a day-old cardboard pizza box.


Poor chap, you must live in a place that's as boring as dog exhaust. Enjoy your old pizza. 

The rest of us will be out enjoying the ride while you nourish your adiposity.


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

Velobike said:


> I'm not arguing either.
> 
> My opinion is that the beauty of gravel is that any bike can be a gravel bike, but I have opinions on what is the optimum shape and form of a gravel bike if you want something that can be ridden in comfort for long distances without having to scan the next few meters of road surface for the gotcha bits.
> 
> ...


That's awesome Velo. Do you also wear tweed and sport a handlebar 'stache?

Know exactly what you mean about scanning the road - spent a couple of hours doing that yesterday, wishing my roadie had fatter tyres


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

Haggis said:


> That's awesome Velo. Do you also wear tweed and sport a handlebar 'stache?
> 
> Know exactly what you mean about scanning the road - spent a couple of hours doing that yesterday, wishing my roadie had fatter tyres


???


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Haggis said:


> That's awesome Velo. Do you also wear tweed and sport a handlebar 'stache?
> 
> Know exactly what you mean about scanning the road - spent a couple of hours doing that yesterday, wishing my roadie had fatter tyres




I'm more into riding bikes than looking the part. I generally wear just normal clothing not cycling gear, but I will make the effort for when the vintage club organises a ride and wants us to look period. Oh, and it's been a full beard for the last 30+ years.

At the moment I'm trying to convince some of the local collectors that their ancient rod--brakes bikes were built to take on gravel roads and built to be used hard, so I'm in the process of putting together some 50 and 100 mile loops on gravel. This is in the hope of luring them into riding their bikes hard instead of sitting around discussing cotter pins and patina. 

I'll post details and more pics on this forum as it happens.

Meanwhiie here's a pic from the old days when all bikes were gravel bikes.


Pic from the book "The Bicycle and the Bush"

Riders are Francis Birtles, Warren & Robert Lennie, at Eucla Australia, 1907. That's about 2,000 km from the nearest surfaced road to the west and 1,000 to the east. Real gravel riding  
(The Lennies were attempting the Perth-Sydney record)


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Velobike said:


> At the moment I'm trying to convince some of the local collectors that their ancient rod--brakes bikes were built to take on gravel roads and built to be used hard, so I'm in the process of putting together some 50 and 100 mile loops on gravel. This is in the hope of luring them into riding their bikes hard instead of sitting around discussing cotter pins and patina.


Most of the old rod brake bikes were a pretty good design for rough roads & gravel but those brakes are mostly worthless, dragging your feet works better!


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Most of the old rod brake bikes were a pretty good design for rough roads & gravel but those brakes are mostly worthless, dragging your feet works better!


I wouldn't say worthless.

It's a matter of setting them up properly. First it is essential to have a perfectly true rim with no eccentricity, then ensure there is no friction in the pivots. If any of the rods are bent, either straighten them or replace them - a bent rod absorbs a lot of the brake mechanism's movement before it can transmit any force to the stirrups.

Next, get rid of the 50 year old brake blocks and get fresh ones. However because these are applied to in inside circumference of the rim, it is important to shape them in a curve to match the rim or only the end portions will contact the rim. Once the block has full contact with the rim, then you're ready to adjust and set the brakes up properly.

If you follow the above procedure carefully, then you can be confident your rod-brakes will be better than useless, and they will now be merely atrocious.

I like to think of them as vintage ABS, or anti-lock.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Velobike said:


> I wouldn't say worthless.
> 
> It's a matter of setting them up properly......


I've actually worked on a fair amount of old rod brake bikes and have done everything you mentioned and the results were always fairly dismal. Maybe worthless is a little extreme but I guess one mans worthless is another's atrocious. A little better then the ones with blocks that push straight down on the tire but I still say feet are at least as good


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## CrankShack (Jul 10, 2018)

*Hardtail with drop bar ends.*

I was experimenting to put a drop bar on my Crank 888 DJ 26er frame (I'm small in stature at 5'2" thus the small frame) planning to convert my MTB into a "gravel" hardtail and ended up in attaching a Origin 8 drop bar ends.









Needless to say I got hooked to the setup. I can maneuver pretty well on grips while on tight and rocky trails while I'm more relaxed on hoods while on gravel and paved roads.

Some peers commented the setup was ugly considering it was on a DJ frame. So I'm now thinking of setting it up on a Mountainpeak 29er frame with 700c gravel tires.


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## blak_byke (Jun 21, 2006)

Why not....


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

richj8990 said:


> Can someone please explain exactly how riding on gravel is fun? Seriously. Please explain. Because I consider it about as fun as picking out the last bits of cheese on a day-old cardboard pizza box.


 Usually less cars to deal with than pave. Here in New England lots of dirt roads( sometimes really smooth) connect with bike paths, singletrack or such. Not all gravel is the same. Can get some better miles on dirt roads than on just single track if you are looking for distance. Try it with some 29er plus tires on a bikepacking setup.


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

I have a super long wheel base touring bike w/ high bottom bracket I use for "gravel". Fixed gear and RB-002 bars with TT levers. It's pretty close to a road'ish swiss army knife. It's one of my fastest road bikes for flat roads, but can still get over 12" logs on single track. Also have a beater 29'r hard tail that I tend to use for recovery rides, single track and suburban cross country. It's plenty fast enough (with clips and straps) for road club rides. Have often thought about getting a carbon hard tail with a rigid fork to ride the same range of conditions with 15-20 lbs less weight. I'd probably go with one piece carbon bullhorns for the nice flat top bar for the elbows. Definitely a dropper post. Could use electronic shifting to work around the handlebar 1x drive train issue. And I'd be fine with the risk of hooking a tree with the bullhorns, but there doesn't seem to be any good solution for brake levers.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2018)

richj8990 said:


> Can someone please explain exactly how riding on gravel is fun? Seriously. Please explain. Because I consider it about as fun as picking out the last bits of cheese on a day-old cardboard pizza box.


 It's like any other aspect of cycling. I used to love riding on the road but I hate the noise and traffic. I like gravel because it has less of both. I also like the solitude of winter riding when there's fresh snow and no one has been out yet. I like riding rock gardens on a rigid and I still enjoy riding a unicycle. It's wholly individualistic what someone will find enjoyable on a bike, but that's the great part of it. In the midwest, if we only rode between 60 and 80 degrees we wouldn't ride very much, so perhaps gravel is an extension of embrace the suck. In any case, I like it so I do it. If you don't see the fun in it, do something else. As an aside, nothing wrong with getting the last bits of mozzerella out of that pizza box.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

blak_byke said:


> Why not....
> 
> View attachment 1211048


Because neck and/or back pain. But if it works for you good, i'm jealous. Couldn't do it. :cryin:


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## tablatom (Feb 8, 2018)

Here is my Voodoo Bizango, great cheap HT.
I added the OG bars from On-One, and then the Tioga power stud bar ends in a way that makes part of the loop found on Jones bars.
This cost a fraction of Jones H bars and gives almost all the hand positions.

For aero, I rest my forearm's on the Ergon grips, and grab the bar ends. Very comfortable aero position.

The G-one speed 2.35's are super fast and comfortable.
They grip every where well except mud obviously.

I live in England and we have had 4 months of dry weather. Thats rare.
If I lived in a country that had dry weather most of the year, I'd run the G-one speeds as much as I could.
3000+ miles on this set and with SnakeSkin no pictures and haven't worn down much.
With cargo on board they grip all but mud surfaces very well too.

Over 30psi they are road tyre fast on tarmac.

The swept back bars give great control on technical single track and nasty down hill tracks, while the aero position and G-ones means I'm flying on hardback and tarmac.

Over all this set-up is a go any where high speed machine, (except mud)

I'd venture to say if speed is important to you, this bike would stay with the fastest of gravel bikes, but with fatter tyres giving a more relaxing comfortable ride.


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## blak_byke (Jun 21, 2006)

HollyBoni said:


> Because neck and/or back pain. But if it works for you good, i'm jealous. Couldn't do it. :cryin:


Ouch! Well yeah...that'll do it.


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## Kisherceg (Mar 5, 2007)

tablatom said:


> Here is my Voodoo Bizango, great cheap HT.
> I added the OG bars from On-One, and then the Tioga power stud bar ends in a way that makes part of the loop found on Jones bars.
> This cost a fraction of Jones H bars and gives almost all the hand positions.
> 
> ...


Hi! Can we a photo or two of you bar-setup? Thanks!


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## tablatom (Feb 8, 2018)

Kisherceg said:


> Hi! Can we a photo or two of you bar-setup? Thanks!


Yes I'll take some now.


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## tablatom (Feb 8, 2018)

This handle bar configuration gives many hand positions, aero, single track control, and comfort.


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## tablatom (Feb 8, 2018)

tablatom said:


> View attachment 1211239
> View attachment 1211240
> View attachment 1211241
> 
> This handle bar configuration gives many hand positions, aero, single track control, and comfort.


Aero position, forearms on the soft grips is very comfortable, and with the hands on the bar ends gives good steering control too.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Velobike said:


> Poor chap, you must live in a place that's as boring as dog exhaust. Enjoy your old pizza.
> 
> The rest of us will be out enjoying the ride while you nourish your adiposity.


Sorry but it's the opposite here. Riding on gravel is a means to get to the dirt trails. Like others have said it's a connecting road to get to where you want to go. I'ts not an end in itself for riding pleasure, at least here. The pictures JD posted are really cool, but if those areas had no gravel and were just dirt fire roads, would it be any more or less exciting? The scenery is exciting, the gravel is not.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Forster said:


> It's like any other aspect of cycling. I used to love riding on the road but I hate the noise and traffic. I like gravel because it has less of both. I also like the solitude of winter riding when there's fresh snow and no one has been out yet. I like riding rock gardens on a rigid and I still enjoy riding a unicycle. It's wholly individualistic what someone will find enjoyable on a bike, but that's the great part of it. In the midwest, if we only rode between 60 and 80 degrees we wouldn't ride very much, so perhaps gravel is an extension of embrace the suck. In any case, I like it so I do it. If you don't see the fun in it, do something else. As an aside, nothing wrong with getting the last bits of mozzerella out of that pizza box.


It's not that I don't like hybrid bikes, I think they are cool. It's the term gravel that I just can't get over. Can't they just call them hybrid bikes? Gravel has no sex appeal. Dirt is the life blood of the Earth. Gravel...is made by political dissidents in Siberian Gulags. Gravel is where a lot of rapes/murders happen on the side of the road outside the city limits. It's not a positive connotation. Sorry but I have some kind of mental block preventing me from thinking of gravel as exciting.

If I lived in a flat area I'd probably be riding all the time on gravel too. Reading threads like these make me feel very fortunate that I live in a very hilly area with plenty of dirt trails. Don't get me wrong, whatever biking people do is great...for them.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> Riding on gravel is a means to get to the dirt trails.


Speak for yourself, I really enjoy my gravel rides. Lot's of people do.

Pavement rides are great too.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

richj8990 said:


> Sorry but it's the opposite here. Riding on gravel is a means to get to the dirt trails. Like others have said it's a connecting road to get to where you want to go. I'ts not an end in itself for riding pleasure, at least here. The pictures JD posted are really cool, but if those areas had no gravel and were just dirt fire roads, would it be any more or less exciting? The scenery is exciting, the gravel is not.


Please do not pretend to speak for my preferences.


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## Kisherceg (Mar 5, 2007)

tablatom said:


> This handle bar configuration gives many hand positions, aero, single track control, and comfort.


very cool bar-setup, should be fun! thanks for the pics!


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> It's not that I don't like hybrid bikes, I think they are cool. It's the term gravel that I just can't get over. Can't they just call them hybrid bikes? Gravel has no sex appeal. Dirt is the life blood of the Earth. Gravel...is made by political dissidents in Siberian Gulags. Gravel is where a lot of rapes/murders happen on the side of the road outside the city limits. It's not a positive connotation. Sorry but I have some kind of mental block preventing me from thinking of gravel as exciting.


I can see why!  No idea how you clued in rape/murder with gravel riding? It happens in the woods, and on the road, so I don't get the comparison.

I wish we had long, never ending gravel roads, which btw... is also DIRT. I would ride them often, that's for sure.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

richj8990 said:


> ...Gravel...is made by political dissidents in Siberian Gulags. Gravel is where a lot of rapes/murders happen on the side of the road outside the city limits. It's not a positive connotation. Sorry but I have some kind of mental block preventing me from thinking of gravel as exciting...


That sounds miserable. Are you sure you're not living in the fundamental orifice of Hell?


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

Velobike said:


> That sounds miserable. Are you sure you're not living in the fundamental orifice of Hell?


I wondered......27 murders and 14 rapes in last year on my local gravel. Don't go out after dark kiddos. ?


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## Dg designs (Apr 29, 2012)

So gravel bikes have caught my attention just like everyone else. Right now i have a 2012 Supersix that caught upgradeitis and a 2006 Santa Cruz Blur LT. At 51 im not going to outride the Blur anytime soon. Im thinking i could either get a Highball and have something i could probably ride most anywhere in Socal. Or i keep keep the Blur when i actually do ride "trails" (rarely) and swap my parts over to a Stigmata for everything else and just run road tires for actual road days.


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## uncaged (May 14, 2016)

vcyclist said:


> Another bike category that is calling my name to buy! Gravel Bike. So with all the hype why not just ride a fully rigid Hardtail mountain bike? You have the ability for a wide range of tire sizes and it seems all the gravel guys want bigger tires. You can run a suspension fork if you like and lock it out, you can ride it easily on single track, gravel and pavement. Perhaps I am missing something, educate me please.


Apple and oranges my friend, apples and oranges. I have a hybrid, MB, and in a few days a Gravel bike. Apples and oranges!

The Gravel is night and day to the hybrid and obviously to the MB because of the geometry of the bike. The design alone makes it more aerodynamic plus more. And I am no where near as knowledgeable of this stuff like many on here.


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

CrankShack said:


> I was experimenting to put a drop bar on my Crank 888 DJ 26er frame (I'm small in stature at 5'2" thus the small frame) planning to convert my MTB into a "gravel" hardtail and ended up in attaching a Origin 8 drop bar ends.
> 
> View attachment 1207610
> 
> ...


Interesting, so your brakes and shifters are on the drop extensions? So the only issue I see here is you are on the flatbar bombing down for stability, you have not brakes!


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

It's bad enough that dirt roads are now being referred to as gravel roads, but pave? Really?


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

HacksawReynolds said:


> It's bad enough that dirt roads are now being referred to as gravel roads, but pave? Really?


 Go to any rural midwest area on a rainey day and you'll immediately know the difference between "dirt" and "gravel" roads. I had a buddy who moved here from the east coast. We were pheasant hunting in his Mazda Mx-3 with all-wheel drive and he decided to turn down a dirt road after a snow melt. We made it to the end of a tow truck cable but no further (thankfully).


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

HacksawReynolds said:


> It's bad enough that dirt roads are now being referred to as gravel roads, but pave? Really?


You're so right, what a horrible world we live in. I can't take this anymore.


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

What do you guys think about doing this as conversion to dropbars?
Save up to 60% off new Mountain Bikes - MTB - Sub 22lbs* Super Light Hardtails Motobecane FLY 29 XO1 Eagle 1x12, SID RACE Forks SRAM EAGLE 1x12, DT SWISS Tubeless Compatible 29er 12x124mm ThruAxle Mountain Bikes

How do you convert you current cockpit length effective top tube + stem to a dropbar conversion? Should it be the same, longer, shorter? My current bike is 650mm (600 ETT)+(50 stem). Should it be exactly the same with dropbars? Should I go with 80/90/100mm stem? So if I go 80mm stem - that would mean I need a bike with 570mm ETT? Let's assume XC bike geometry 70deg HTA, 73-74deg STA.


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## akindofbrian (Jan 4, 2017)

Dg designs said:


> So gravel bikes have caught my attention just like everyone else. Right now i have a 2012 Supersix that caught upgradeitis and a 2006 Santa Cruz Blur LT. At 51 im not going to outride the Blur anytime soon. Im thinking i could either get a Highball and have something i could probably ride most anywhere in Socal. Or i keep keep the Blur when i actually do ride "trails" (rarely) and swap my parts over to a Stigmata for everything else and just run road tires for actual road days.


Super tough call on this one, and one I often wrestle with myself. If I were in your shoes, it would probably depend on how much true "road" riding I was doing. I've really gravitated away from that, so I'm in the hartail mtb camp. My one bike to do it all.

But if you hit some bigger trails sometimes, and you've got the roadish parts and sometimes ride on the roads, yeah, I don't think you can go wrong with a Stigmata-Blur combo. A skinny tired wheelset would allow you to keep up on faster group rides if that's your thing. Or just road ride on the wider tires. That's what everyone around me does in the winter time. Either way, good luck and have fun.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

smoothmoose said:


> What do you guys think about doing this as conversion to dropbars?
> Save up to 60% off new Mountain Bikes - MTB - Sub 22lbs* Super Light Hardtails Motobecane FLY 29 XO1 Eagle 1x12, SID RACE Forks SRAM EAGLE 1x12, DT SWISS Tubeless Compatible 29er 12x124mm ThruAxle Mountain Bikes
> 
> How do you convert you current cockpit length effective top tube + stem to a dropbar conversion? Should it be the same, longer, shorter? My current bike is 650mm (600 ETT)+(50 stem). Should it be exactly the same with dropbars? Should I go with 80/90/100mm stem? So if I go 80mm stem - that would mean I need a bike with 570mm ETT? Let's assume XC bike geometry 70deg HTA, 73-74deg STA.


Down size your normal frame size. Probably about 75mm in horizontal top tube length. Of course this will require a very long seat post. One of the very reasons that mountain bikes suck for gravel conversions.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

smoothmoose said:


> What do you guys think about doing this as conversion to dropbars?
> Save up to 60% off new Mountain Bikes - MTB - Sub 22lbs* Super Light Hardtails Motobecane FLY 29 XO1 Eagle 1x12, SID RACE Forks SRAM EAGLE 1x12, DT SWISS Tubeless Compatible 29er 12x124mm ThruAxle Mountain Bikes
> 
> How do you convert you current cockpit length effective top tube + stem to a dropbar conversion? Should it be the same, longer, shorter? My current bike is 650mm (600 ETT)+(50 stem). Should it be exactly the same with dropbars? Should I go with 80/90/100mm stem? So if I go 80mm stem - that would mean I need a bike with 570mm ETT? Let's assume XC bike geometry 70deg HTA, 73-74deg STA.


What kind of shifter would you run? If there is a secret drop bar Eagle shifter let me know because I want it right now.


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

HollyBoni said:


> What kind of shifter would you run? If there is a secret drop bar Eagle shifter, let me know because I want it right now.


Lol. I guess that's why I asked. I guess Eagle/12-sp is a no-go for dropbars?


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

*Why not "Gravel" a Hardtail*



HacksawReynolds said:


> It's bad enough that dirt roads are now being referred to as gravel roads, but pave? Really?


I got a Gravel bike a couple of weeks ago, and it has been awesome! It has become the bike for gravel, dirt roads, maintenance roads, pavement, etc.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

smoothmoose said:


> Lol. I guess that's why I asked. I guess Eagle/12-sp is a no-go for dropbars?


Nope.

You can't mix MTB and road stuff with 11spd SRAM either, although they have 1x drop bar groups with 10-42 cassettes and you can of course "just" switch the RD and shifters if you're converting.

Same thing with Shimano 11spd, but there is a cable pull adapter for the rear derailleur. I don't think an adapter exists for the front derailleur, or at least I haven't seen it yet.

Not sure what happens when you try mixing hydraulic calipers.

So drop bars conversions... Fun, right?  


Don't do it!​


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

life behind bars said:


> Down size your normal frame size. Probably about 75mm in horizontal top tube length. Of course this will require a very long seat post. One of the very reasons that mountain bikes suck for gravel conversions.


Ok, so reduce TT by 75mm, what do add back in the stem? I'm looking for the overall cockpit length.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

smoothmoose said:


> Ok, so reduce TT by 75mm, what do add back in the stem? I'm looking for the overall cockpit length.


Don't bother with all those fancy measurements and downsize rubbish, just mount the stem backwards.









There is no "overall cockpit length" with a drop bar really, unless you only want to hold the tops, but then just ride flat bars. 
Different drop bars have different reach and shape, brifters have different shape. Where your hand will actually end up is not that simple.

Compare geometries of drop bar frames and start from there.

But really... Don't torture yourself, don't waste your money, just get a factory big tyre drop bar bike. There are plenty of them on the market that will clear 650b MTB rubber.


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

smoothmoose said:


> Lol. I guess that's why I asked. I guess Eagle/12-sp is a no-go for dropbars?


This is a good reference for sizing [and a GREAT bike with a Fox Stepcast up front]:

https://salsacycles.com/bikes/cutthroat/2018_cutthroat_force_1

However, I'm finding the trend to short stems in mountain bikes is applicable to these drop bar bike too. I'm using an 80mm stem with Salsa Cowbell 3 bars on the "Smorgaspork". The Cowbells have a short drop and reach number. The Ritchey Adventure Max is another cool option. Bike handles awesome everywhere - even technical singletrack. When in the drops, my hands are even/inline with the head tube.

As an FYI - there's a LOT of stuff in this thread regarding sizing and fit that I have found to be incorrect.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

The "progressive" slack and long MTBs use 35-40mm stems, 80mm is nothing out of the ordinary. Some small road bikes come with 80mm stems from the factory. 40mm would be a different story.


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

HollyBoni said:


> Nope.
> 
> You can't mix MTB and road stuff with 11spd SRAM either, although they have 1x drop bar groups with 10-42 cassettes and you can of course "just" switch the RD and shifters if you're converting.
> 
> ...


Actually they are, you can, and apparently you have no idea what you're talking about on this subject.

I'm running Shimano 105 11 speed hydraulic shift/brake levers with the longer cage 105 rear derailleur and an XT front derailleur, with the 10-42 SRAM Cassette. Rotor mountain cranks with 38/25 chainrings. Shifts PERFECTLY. Did with a Shimano 11/40 11 speed XT cassette too.

Here's the gear inches top and bottom:

105 gear inches high
16.4 gear inches low

Using a 26/40 up front, it's basically CX bike top gear, and a [back in the day] 3x triple mountain bike low.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

jms said:


> Actually they are and you apparently youhave no idea what you're talking about on this subject.
> 
> I'm running A Shimano 11 speed hydraulic shift/brake levers with the longer cage 105 rear derailleur and an XT front derailleur, and a 10-42 SRAM Cassette. Rotor mountain cranks with 38/25 chainrings. Shifts PERFECTLY. Did with a Shimano 11/40 11 speed XT cassette too.
> 
> ...


Art's Cyclery Blog » Science Behind the Magic | Drivetrain Compatibility


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

double post


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

HollyBoni said:


> Art's Cyclery Blog » Science Behind the Magic | Drivetrain Compatibility


So you're just parroted back what you've read? Not what you've actually been riding. Thanks for playing.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Nah. Tried mixing a bunch of stuff too. You can get lucky in the front sometimes. At the back, different story. 

Those 3 charts will tell you everything about derailleur and shifter compatibility. Well not everything actually because they haven't updated it with 12spd stuff. 

It's math, and it's true. Can't cheat that. Cable pull adapters exist for a reason.


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

HollyBoni said:


> Nah. Tried mixing a bunch of stuff too. You can get lucky in the front sometimes. At the back, different story.
> 
> Those 3 charts will tell you everything about drivetrain compatibility.
> 
> It's math, and it's true. Can't cheat that. Cable pull adapters exist for a reason.


Apparently, not everything. Wolftooth has a chart too - but, I wound up NOT using the Goatlink because my Paragon dropout's derailieur hanger was long enough that it shifts well w/o the Goatlink.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

jms said:


> Apparently, not everything. Wolftooth has a chart too - but, I wound up NOT using the Goatlink because my Paragon dropout's derailieur hanger was long enough that it shifts well w/o the Goatlink.


Should have read the fine print!

"Due to variations in derailleur hanger geometry, chainstay length, chainring size, B-screw adjustment, and suspension configuration, individual results will vary."



Pointless, I was trying to talk about shifter and derailleur compatibility.

I'll change my comment then. smoothmoose go and buy that Eagle bike and throw an 11spd road shifter on it, maybe it will work, who knows! You won't be able to use all 12 gears to begin with, the cable pull and pull ratio is different, but that might not translate to real life for some reason. Just try it, it's only money.

Love forums...


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## smoothmoose (Jun 8, 2008)

Thanks guys. I don't mind, hacking around a bit, but not too much with mix and match.

I do agree it seems Salsa and Surly have this segment pretty dialed in. Based on this I'm thinking if I'm looking to save some $$$ as this would be my backup bike, I'm better off just buying one these used. And if I really feel the urge to get burlier - it's easy to swap in a Fox32 or SID?

Also I just saw a Cannondale Slate Ultegra w/Lefty fork on-sale for $2200 at an LBS. Still more than I want to spend, and a bit concerned about all the proprietary stuff.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Velobike said:


> That sounds miserable. Are you sure you're not living in the fundamental orifice of Hell?


Look I'm sorry for telling you the truth. If everything was gravel I would not look forward to riding. I would probably go out on some type of bike and ride up and down it sometimes, just to get out of the house and have a change of pace. It doesn't compare to dirt hills/mountains. That's just my opinion and I'm not here to sway anyone's opinion, unlike the trollers that infiltrate the e-bike forum.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> Hacksaw - I agree with Velo on this. If you are not going to add anything relevant to this or other gravel bike threads, just don't post in them. There is no reason to be antagonistic.


But does Hacksaw respect the bike itself. He can hate the term gravel bike all he wants but is he OK with the actual bike. I'm OK with the bike itself.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> Look I'm sorry for telling you the truth. If everything was gravel I would not look forward to riding. I would probably go out on some type of bike and ride up and down it sometimes, just to get out of the house and have a change of pace. It doesn't compare to dirt hills/mountains. That's just my opinion and I'm not here to sway anyone's opinion, unlike the trollers that infiltrate the e-bike forum.


To be fair Rich, you do this on gravel threads, I totally get and respect that is your opinion, but why even post in a subject you dislike?

These guys think otherwise.






Sent from my LGMS210 using Tapatalk


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

HollyBoni said:


> Nah. Tried mixing a bunch of stuff too. You can get lucky in the front sometimes. At the back, different story.
> 
> Those 3 charts will tell you everything about derailleur and shifter compatibility. Well not everything actually because they haven't updated it with 12spd stuff.
> 
> It's math, and it's true. Can't cheat that. Cable pull adapters exist for a reason.


Seems like DI2 would make any shifter setup possible (w/ a $400 rear derailleur). And any hydraulic brake should work with any hydraulic lever.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Getting there.
2011 Stumpy 26" hardtail.
Carbon fork on the way.
Wolftooth Tanpan to get the RS685 11 speed shifters working on the Zee 10 speed rear mech and 11-40 cassette.
OnOne Midge bars...
Going to build some 650b wheels up later, but in the meantime 29er's with up to 45mm tyres will fit.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

NordieBoy said:


> Getting there.
> 2011 Stumpy 26" hardtail.
> Carbon fork on the way.
> Wolftooth Tanpan to get the RS685 11 speed shifters working on the Zee 10 speed rear mech and 11-40 cassette.
> ...


Nice project! And it appears you are having fun in the process, which is what matters.
But, by the time you are done, it won't be a hardtail anymore. 
At some point I thought about doing something similar, but ended up buying a "true" gravel bike.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Loving it!









Sent from my LGMS210 using Tapatalk


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

j102 said:


> Nice project! And it appears you are having fun in the process, which is what matters.
> But, by the time you are done, it won't be a hardtail anymore.
> At some point I thought about doing something similar, but ended up buying a "true" gravel bike.


It was the bike that got me back into mtb'ing.
Only had to purchase the cassette, Tanpan, forks and brakes (2nd hand).
My current gravel bike is a Kona Unit rigid single speed with the gearing cranked up and some Tri-Bars bolted on. It's usual 32/22 gearing isn't much use in a 51km gravel race.
I would have single speeded the Stumpy, but my knees and the top tube don't get along. I need nice skinny steel tubing for that.
I'll start out with some 42mm Maxxis WormDrive's as they're already in the tyre pile.
Got some WTB Frequency i25 650b rims on the way and some old Hope Pro2 hubs to lace up. Should lower the BB a bit, be lighter and keep a bit of the rollover and cush.

Technically it isn't an N+1 bike if it's one of your old ones is it?


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> ...Technically it isn't an N+1 bike if it's one of your old ones is it?


Recycling gets you bonus points, so you're now entitled to N+2 and a smug but virtuous expression...


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Velobike said:


> Recycling gets you bonus points, so you're now entitled to N+2 and a smug but virtuous expression...


Got rid of a few (apparently old and mouldy) motorbike bits today as well, so very virtuous


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

*OneSpeed* said:


> shhh, don't tell the wives you can ride gravel on a XC rigid/hardtail. if they hear you we may not have a good enough excuse for N+1.
> 
> really, for long and/or high speed gravel rides, or if the bike will be used part time as a road bike, or as a cyclocross bike i think a gravel/cross bike is a better option. lighter, more aero etc. it's designed specifically for that environment and to be a versatile bike.
> 
> yes, a XC bike can be made to be very similar. certain frames even work really well as drop bar XC bikes. hence the term "monstercross" and it's popularity. :thumbsup:


My wife thought our 29r steel hard tail MTB was all one should want but she's become fond of our Fargo with fast MTB tires.

All sorts of bikes work for gravel, I love flat bars and upright posture but it is a lot easier for me to put on gravel path and road miles with our Fargo. It's crazy but pleasing to see all the bike choices these days.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Hollyboni=Holybologna

Big BC ride to the highest point in NE Vt this am. Gained close to a few thousand feet of vert on the hill itself with pitches up to 17%. Hardtail is the better choice.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Big BC ride to the highest point in NE Vt this am. Gained close to a few thousand feet of vert on the hill itself with pitches up to 17%. Hardtail is the better choice.


You're the boss.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Hollyboni=Holybalogna
> 
> Big BC ride to the highest point in NE Vt this am. Gained close to a few thousand feet of vert on the hill itself with pitches up to 17%. Hardtail is the better choice.


Why not just use a road bike?


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> Why not just use a road bike?


Because since "gravel" bikes have swept sheeple nation, riding road bikes on dirt is unpossible. Plus this thread is about hardtails as "gravel" bikes.?


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Because since "gravel" bikes have swept sheeple nation, riding road bikes on dirt is unpossible. Plus this thread is about hardtails as "gravel" bikes.?


Used to love riding my Cervelo R3 on dirt roads with Michelin 25's. And a Specialized Roubaix before that, and a Bridgestone RB1 prior to that. Google Eroica California. A bike is a bike.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

jms said:


> Used to love riding my Cervelo R3 on dirt roads with Michelin 25's. And a Specialized Roubaix before that, and a Bridgestone RB1 prior to that. Google Eroica California. A bike is a bike.


I couldn't agree more.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2018)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Hollyboni=Holybalogna


 Do you mean "Holy Bologna?" If you're gonna bag on someone's member name, spelling it correctly so we know what you mean is always appreciated.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Fixed!!!😬


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## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

You can ride anything on the gravel roads. Gravel bikes, road bikes, hardtails, cyclocross bikes, hybrids, and touring bikes will carry you from A to B. But Gravel bikes are engineered and designed to handle the gravel roads. Hardtails are probably over built for this purpose for riding on the dirt road. Because riders on gravel bikes are less likely to riding off drop offs or doing other mountain bike stunts. They are designed for and by the roadies who want to ride dirt.

I am also curious to see if the gravel riding trend will bring back Bar Ends. I see that there are a few people already running them on the bikes. This is a good way to have multiple hand positions on a mountain bike, specially for cruising on flat dirt road. and yes, they can even aid your climbing..


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

blizzardpapa said:


> You can ride anything on the gravel roads. Gravel bikes, road bikes, hardtails, cyclocross bikes, hybrids, and touring bikes will carry you from A to B. But Gravel bikes are engineered and designed to handle the gravel roads. Hardtails are probably over built for this purpose for riding on the dirt road. Because riders on gravel bikes are less likely to riding off drop offs or doing other mountain bike stunts. They are designed for and by the roadies who want to ride dirt.
> 
> I am also curious to see if the gravel riding trend will bring back Bar Ends. I see that there are a few people already running them on the bikes. This is a good way to have multiple hand positions on a mountain bike, specially for cruising on flat dirt road. and yes, they can even aid your climbing..


Hardtails are more useful as they allow you to, you know, diversify your ride a "bit" more than a "gravel" (lol) bike. I can tell you for certain that the descent I was on yesterday is no place for drop bars, "gravel" bike geo, and tires less than 2.2 "Gravel" bikes are for those looking for a unidimensional riding experience and life's too short for that noise.?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Hardtails are more useful as they allow you to, you know, diversify your ride a "bit" more than a "gravel" (lol) bike. I can tell you for certain that the descent I was on yesterday is no place for drop bars, "gravel" bike geo, and tires less than 2.2 "Gravel" bikes are for those looking for a unidimensional riding experience and life's too short for that noise.?


Wait, first a road bike with 23c tires is fine and now you "need" a hardtail? I thought a bike is a bike?


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Unidemensional? when you can go from asphalt to gravel, to fire roads, to singletrack?

Sent from my LGMS210 using Tapatalk


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Wait, first a road bike with 23c tires is fine and now you "need" a hardtail? I thought a bike is a bike?


Please try to stick to the topic Mr drifter.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

jcd46 said:


> Unidemensional? when you can go from asphalt to gravel, to fire roads, to singletrack?
> 
> Sent from my LGMS210 using Tapatalk


A hardtail will do all that and more. Plus not all "gravel", fire roads, and singletrack are the same. Hardtail will have you better prepared for more variable of each.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Please try to stick to the topic Mr drifter.


Exactly. The topic is gravel road riding, not all-mountain trail.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

HacksawReynolds said:


> ...I can tell you for certain that the descent I was on yesterday is no place for drop bars...


That surprises me. I thought you were more skilful.

































Ah, well....


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Exactly. The topic is gravel road riding, not all-mountain trail.


No silly, the topic is hardtails as "gravel" bikes. Duh

and uh the dirt road descent yesterday was steep and loose. I've done it with 33c on a drop bar bike. Super sketchy slow going. On the hardtail I was able to fly down the mountain. Both bike setups climbed it fine but of course more traction on the MTB.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Velo 750mm flat bars way more stable and confidence inspiring.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

HacksawReynolds said:


> No silly, the topic is hardtails as "gravel" bikes. Duh


Yes, for gravel roads.

So, your girlfriend shreds gravel roads on 23c tires and drop bars but you're sketched out unless you have fat tires and suspension? Does that make you feel inadequate?


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> Wait, first a road bike with 23c tires is fine and now you "need" a hardtail? I thought a bike is a bike?


He hates Gravel bikes so much that he contradicts himself a lot more. He would say anything, even the wrong thing.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

*Why not "Gravel" a Hardtail*

A Hardtail works great on gravel. I did it for a long time. But a Gravel bike opens a lot of possibilities. 
A Gravel bike is more comfortable for long rides, and faster, better for long endurance rides. And if you mix gravel with maintenance roads and pavement rides, it is definitely better.
If you are talking technical trails, big rocks, etc., stick with the hardtail.


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## brownpownow (Jul 19, 2018)

richj8990 said:


> Look I'm sorry for telling you the truth. If everything was gravel I would not look forward to riding. I would probably go out on some type of bike and ride up and down it sometimes, just to get out of the house and have a change of pace. It doesn't compare to dirt hills/mountains.


Surely you can't be so obtuse as to believe that drop bar bikes with skinny tires are limited to pavement and gravel, right? That would be really silly.

It seems that you can't understand the fact that folks have been having a blast riding "gravel" bikes on "dirt hills/mountains" for many years.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

brownpownow said:


> Surely you can't be so obtuse as to believe that drop bar bikes with skinny tires are limited to pavement and gravel, right? That would be really silly.
> 
> It seems that you can't understand the fact that folks have been having a blast riding "gravel" bikes on "dirt hills/mountains" for many years.


He's just being a richard.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

life behind bars said:


> He's just being a richard.


My wife likes the term "Charles".

Charles Dickens.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

j102 said:


> A Hardtail works great on gravel. I did it for a long time. But a Gravel bike opens a lot of possibilities.
> A Gravel bike is more comfortable for long rides, and faster, better for long endurance rides. And if you mix gravel with maintenance roads and pavement rides, it is definitely better.
> If you are talking technical trails, big rocks, etc., stick with the hardtail.


So then a "gravel" bike doesn't open as many possibilities as a hardtail. And comfort is very subjective.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yes, for gravel roads.
> 
> So, your girlfriend shreds gravel roads on 23c tires and drop bars but you're sketched out unless you have fat tires and suspension? Does that make you feel inadequate?


These dirt roads are on a far different level than ones discussed previously.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

brownpownow said:


> Surely you can't be so obtuse as to believe that drop bar bikes with skinny tires are limited to pavement and gravel, right? That would be really silly.
> 
> It seems that you can't understand the fact that folks have been having a blast riding "gravel" bikes on "dirt hills/mountains" for many years.


Yes, long before they were called "gravel" bikes lol.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Velo 750mm flat bars way more stable and confidence inspiring.


Than what?

A handlebar is just a means to get your hands in the most effective position. How many curls and curves or not it takes to get your hands in that position is irrelevant, it is the leverage and weight distribution that counts.

I cannot think of a situation where a gravel bike would need a 750mm wide bar. An mtb, yes.

But again I must question why you are on this forum. You disagree that there is a need for it to exist. Gravel bikes are here whether you like it or not.

You think we are "sheeple" so why do you hang around here?


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Velobike said:


> But again I must question why you are on this forum. You disagree that there is a need for it to exist. Gravel bikes are here whether you like it or not.
> 
> You think we are "sheeple" so why do you hang around here?


I shudder to think what he thinks of Single Speeds. Let alone Rigid Single Speeds...


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

HacksawReynolds said:


> So then a "gravel" bike doesn't open as many possibilities as a hardtail. And comfort is very subjective.


You don't have a Gravel bike so, you can't say. You have not tried it so, your opinion doesn't count.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

NordieBoy said:


> I shudder to think what he thinks of Single Speeds. Let alone Rigid Single Speeds...


I rode and raced nothing but for over a decade. Love them.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

j102 said:


> You don't have a Gravel bike so, you can't say. You have not tried it so, your opinion doesn't count.


Yes I do, it's posted above. And it happens to be what this thread is about.


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Velobike said:


> Than what?
> 
> A handlebar is just a means to get your hands in the most effective position. How many curls and curves or not it takes to get your hands in that position is irrelevant, it is the leverage and weight distribution that counts.
> 
> ...


Cmon guy, who's kiddin who here. We've both been riding mixed surfaces for decades on all kinds of bikes. You have to admit this whole "gravel" phenomenon blew up something out of nothing. Drop bars and wide tires ooooh.......riveting.........


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

Meanwhile.............

I built mine up with this in mind:

https://oregontimbertrail.org/

And so far, the SmorgaSpork has been easy to manage on any terrain I've tried it on.








So connecting this all back to the original question, a 29er based gravel bike leaves "ME" [please note, I'm speaking only for myself here] with a broader range of application than a dedicated "gravel" rig would - which is essentially a "roided" out CX bike.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

HacksawReynolds said:


> ...You have to admit this whole "gravel" phenomenon blew up something out of nothing. Drop bars and wide tires ooooh.......riveting.........


That's garbage, the phenomenon has been around a very long time, it's just that the manufacturers never saw fit to cater specifically for it.

What the term gravel bike has done is give a description to the sort of riding many people have been doing for a very long time and which does not fit into any previous classifications used.

In the UK the Rough Stuff Fellowship club was established in 1955, and their offroad riding is what would be classed as gravel biking. They built on a long tradition of that sort of riding going back to the first days of bicycles. The "pass stormers" of the 1890s and early 1900s were gravel bikers, so there's well over 120 years tradition of gravel biking. I'm pretty sure there would be similar groups in the USA.

Possibly the term "hybrid" may have caught on if the manufacturers hadn't seen it as an opportunity to hang their crappiest mtb components on what was fundamentally a road bike. However, it didn't get traction, so gravel bike it is.

I don't know what is your problem with dropbars. They have their place, multiple positions are useful particularly on a bike that may be ridden on exposed roads. I spent yesterday doing 20 miles on a combination of road, path, and gravel track into a stiff headwind and I would have given my eyeteeth for dropbars then - the return 20 miles was more fun.

You'd be overbiked on an mtb for this sort of stuff, and miserable on the road. Wider tyres would be an improvement though.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

1890's. "Gravel" wasn't a marketing catchphrase.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

*Why not "Gravel" a Hardtail*



HacksawReynolds said:


> Yes I do, it's posted above. And it happens to be what this thread is about.


When did you get a Gravel bike? When did you try a Gravel bike? Have you done long miles on a Gravel bike? On a mix of road, gravel, etc?
You have an opinion on something you have not tried.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Forgive me for not reading all the previous 200+ posts, but here is my take:

Main differences: Drop bars, lower bb, more road-like handling, higher gearing.

Drop bars: Personally, for extended stretches on the road, I prefer drops. And in my experience, most dirt/gravel roads is basically road riding. Gravel bike frames are designed with a higher stack and (more importantly) shorter reach to accommodate drop bars. With a few notable exceptions (like the salsa fargo, which would probably make a fine gravel bike) most hardtail mtbs are designed for flat bars. Some older mtbs (like from the 90s) have pretty short top tubes, and I can see how they can accommodate drops, but as top tubes and frame reach has gotten longer, it is getting pretty hard to fit drops unless you want a really long reach. 

Also, the handling geo (head angle, bb drop, and maybe other things I am unaware of) is more road-like, and is IMO better suited for pavement (which gravel bikes will most likely spend a bit of time on) and dirt/gravel roads.

The gearing is also more in line with what I generally want for gravel and pavement.

Long of the short is that gravel bikes are essentially slightly slacked more stable road bikes that take fatter tires. And for pretty much everything I actually do on my gravel bike, it works a better than when I was using my rigid 29er HT.

Of course, if what you WANT is a flat bar, more slacked out geo, higher BB, and lower gearing.... then definitely go for a rigid MTB. But they are really two different animals.


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

Well said, Kapusta. I'd ridden my hardtail for years on gravel roads. Now, my gravel bike feels like i'm flying. I can put in more miles in less time on roads that would be no fun at all with skinny tires.

PS: If you're ever in SE Michigan, make sure you stop in to the Polish Village Cafe in Hamtramck.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

My aim is a bike that can be taken on a road group ride and still be capable of faster non-sealed surface riding as well as some CX racing.

At the moment, my everyday bike is a Kona Unit with 32/22 gearing and 2.3" tyres.
Group rides aren't happening on that.

My road bike is a Specialized Secteur (alloy version of the Roubaix) with 28mm tyres.
I ride it on gravel, but it's a compromised experience.

I rode my CX bike (hybrid flat bar conversion to drops) everywhere and the 33mm max tyres were the only downside. Absolutely loved that bike. If it had disc brakes and 42mm tyres, I'd still be riding it.

I've geared up the Unit and gravel raced it and while it worked, the wider tyres (2.25) were very much overkill and the gravel rides over here are getting even less single speed friendly.

Better braking, wider tyres, gears, frame capable of far more abuse than gravelling will ever throw at it and mainly use parts I've already got.

I may build it and it rides like ****, but then again, it might not...

My carbon forks arrived from China this morning. A chain and I could ride it today.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

richj8990 said:


> Can someone please explain exactly how riding on gravel is fun? Seriously. Please explain. Because I consider it about as fun as picking out the last bits of cheese on a day-old cardboard pizza box.





J.B. Weld said:


> View attachment 1207177
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I could not come up with anything, either


----------



## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Velobike said:


> That's garbage, the phenomenon has been around a very long time, it's just that the manufacturers never saw fit to cater specifically for it.
> 
> What the term gravel bike has done is give a description to the sort of riding many people have been doing for a very long time and which does not fit into any previous classifications used.
> 
> ...


My Epic hardtail is never miserable on the road. The thing is super efficient and comfy for long hauls for me. And then can tackle anything a "gravel" bike can and can handle so much more than what a "gravel" bike can.

Hybrids didn't catch on? Ok now your way more out of touch than I previously thought lol. In my 20+ years making I living selling bikes, hybrids kept the shops in business and you see hybrids on every bike path and street corner everywhere drive been.

And ya something out of nothing. Nothing because riding dirt roads on different kinds of bikes never needed to be a "thing". You just did it.


----------



## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

j102 said:


> When did you get a Gravel bike? When did you try a Gravel bike? Have you done long miles on a Gravel bike? On a mix of road, gravel, etc?
> You have an opinion on something you have not tried.


ASSume much?


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

*Why not "Gravel" a Hardtail*

I have an Epic HT too. I "graveled" it for a month. Put 45mm tires on. Mixed surface rides over roughly 50 miles. Then I demoed a 3T Exploro equipped with 650b 47mm WTB ByWays on the suggestion of one Dave Zabriskie. One 70 mile ride that included a good bit of So Cal single track, about 4500 feet of vert, and I was sold. So much more comfortable and suited for that kind of riding than my Epic. Hand position alone made it so much more enjoyable. And it was faster. Love my HT but I find for the kind of riding I'm into these days the Exploro is the far better horse for the course, and it's quickly becoming the go-to choice.

Doesn't mean I don't love the Epic, but I'm not gonna take it to a Dirty Kanza.


----------



## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

HacksawReynolds said:


> ...Hybrids didn't catch on? Ok now your way more out of touch than I previously thought lol. In my 20+ years making I living selling bikes, hybrids kept the shops in business and you see hybrids on every bike path and street corner everywhere drive been...


They did not catch on for what gravel bikes are used for, and that is plainly what I was referring to. They get used for road, commuting or cycle paths and are a popular choice for town, but they rarely seen anywhere in the wild, although they would be capable with a decent spec.



> And ya something out of nothing. Nothing because riding dirt roads on different kinds of bikes never needed to be a "thing". You just did it.


Which bit of this did you not understand? _What the term gravel bike has done is give a description to the sort of riding many people have been doing for a very long time and which does not fit into any previous classifications used._

It existed already, it did not come out of nothing, it simply got a name, and finally mainstream manufacturers are catering for gravel riding and it's no longer necessary to modify a bike.

And again, if you have a problem with the term gravel bike, why are you on this forum? Go troll somewhere else.


----------



## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Velobike said:


> They did not catch on for what gravel bikes are used for, and that is plainly what I was referring to. They get used for road, commuting or cycle paths and are a popular choice for town, but they rarely seen anywhere in the wild, although they would be capable with a decent spec.


Face palm.



> Which bit of this did you not understand? _What the term gravel bike has done is give a description to the sort of riding many people have been doing for a very long time and which does not fit into any previous classifications used._
> 
> It existed already, it did not come out of nothing, it simply got a name, and finally mainstream manufacturers are catering for gravel riding and it's no longer necessary to modify a bike.


It was never necessary to modify a bike for riding dirt roads. The last thing the bike world needed was another category. Especially one for riding dirt roads.

Hardtails. They've got ya covered.?


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Velobike said:


> They did not catch on for what gravel bikes are used for, and that is plainly what I was referring to. They get used for road, commuting or cycle paths and are a popular choice for town, but they rarely seen anywhere in the wild, although they would be capable with a decent spec.
> 
> Which bit of this did you not understand? _What the term gravel bike has done is give a description to the sort of riding many people have been doing for a very long time and which does not fit into any previous classifications used._
> 
> ...


You are making totally valid points, but that just makes them delicious troll food.


----------



## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

HacksawReynolds said:


> ASSume much?


You never said you have a Gravel bike. Have you tried one?
Again, you have an opinion on something you have not tried.


----------



## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

*Why not "Gravel" a Hardtail*



HacksawReynolds said:


> Hardtails. They've got ya covered.


Hardtails are very capable bikes. I love mine and will always have one. I used mine a lot in every terrain, but after trying a Gravel bike on a mix of pavement, gravel, etc., I believe a Gravel/CX bike is better for that.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

23c tires are fine. A bike is a bike.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

kapusta said:


> You are making totally valid points, but that just makes them delicious troll food.


You're right. I should know better than to make the mistake of trying to debate with a troll in the hope that he would say something positive. Just about every one of his posts has taken something out of context and has a term of abuse or contempt in it.


----------



## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

j102 said:


> Hardtails are very capable bikes. I love mine and will always have one. I used mine a lot in every terrain, but after trying a Gravel bike on a mix of pavement, gravel, etc., I believe a Gravel/CX bike is better for that.


I have a CX bike. Have had it for 7 years. For the mixed rides I do it collects dust. Not because I dint love my CX bike, I do. It's just that the hardtail opens up more possibilities on every mixed ride I do. Why stick to just gravel or road or both when you can add some good chunk to it? A nice light hardtail will pedal well on all surfaces except where one might need a fatbike.

So yes "why not a gravel hardtail"?

😘


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## HacksawReynolds (Dec 1, 2017)

Aaaaaaaaaand the dirt/paved combo ride I posted pics of was better on the hardtail than my CX bike due to the steep loose descending.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Aaaaaaaaaand the dirt/paved combo ride I posted pics of was better on the hardtail than my CX bike due to the steep loose descending.


That's a 29er?


----------



## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

HacksawReynolds said:


> Aaaaaaaaaand the dirt/paved combo ride I posted pics of was better on the hardtail than my CX bike due to the steep loose descending.


That's because you are not skillful enough to master the descent. keep learning, grasshopper


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## tablatom (Feb 8, 2018)

jms said:


> https://oregontimbertrail.org/
> 
> View attachment 1213983


Fantastic website, you guys in the States are spoiled for choice with off road biking.
What tyres are those on the bike? Look like 2.2 Conti Race King's?


----------



## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

tablatom said:


> Fantastic website, you guys in the States are spoiled for choice with off road biking.
> What tyres are those on the bike? Look like 2.2 Conti Race King's?


Thanks. Yep, latest generation RaceKing rear, and Schwalbe Rocket Ron up front. It's a really fun bike - everywhere.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

It lives!
Rides, shifts and brakes ok on the road.
Next is a gravel test and fine tuning the cockpit.







Oh, and fatter tyres when I can find them, they were here somewhere...


----------



## tablatom (Feb 8, 2018)

NordieBoy said:


> It lives!
> Rides, shifts and brakes ok on the road.
> Next is a gravel test and fine tuning the cockpit.
> View attachment 1214951
> ...


I have On-One Midge handle bars on my CX bike, looks like the ones on this bike


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

tablatom said:


> I have On-One Midge handle bars on my CX bike, looks like the ones on this bike


I'd stick some of my spare carbon bars on, but want to be able to easily run tri-bars and the Midge's are the best of my spare alloy bars.


----------



## tablatom (Feb 8, 2018)

NordieBoy said:


> I'd stick some of my spare carbon bars on, but want to be able to easily run tri-bars and the Midge's are the best of my spare alloy bars.


That bike is very similar to my Cyclocross bike, those bars are great for off-road, but I prefer the bar set-up on my Bizango page 2, post146. Better for off-road and with a comfy aero position.

It would be interesting to stick Ergon grips at the end of the On-One Midge bars.
https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Ergon-GP1-Grips_87494.htm


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Late to this discussion (Argument? Nope, just a contradiction!) but IMO, everybody should have a gravel bike, a hardtail, and an FS mtb, if possible. Actual road bike is optional.

In the PNW, some of our "gravel" rides are very steep and rough, so a HT with a lightweight suspension fork is more enjoyable -- not mention a bit easier on an aging body.

Other rides are smoother and faster, and a gravel bike is more enjoyable.

As far as drop bars go, my roots are mtb, so you could cut my bars off below the hoods and I might not notice for an hour or more!


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

kosmo said:


> Late to this discussion (Argument? Nope, just a contradiction!) but IMO, everybody should have a gravel bike, a hardtail, and an FS mtb, if possible. Actual road bike is optional.
> 
> In the PNW, some of our "gravel" rides are very steep and rough, so a HT with a lightweight suspension fork is more enjoyable -- not mention a bit easier on an aging body.











We have our share of those in California too ; )









On up to somewhat technical singletrack, drop bars have allowed me to choose tighter inside lines - they're narrower, and don't hook brush like a flat bar. Try em, you might like em.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

kosmo said:


> Actual road bike is optional.


No, gotta have the road bike.

I agree with the rest though and if I had a couple of grand laying around that I didn't know what to do with I'd buy a gravel bike today. Sadly I don't though so a hardtail will have to suffice for now. And it does.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> It lives!
> Rides, shifts and brakes ok on the road.
> Next is a gravel test and fine tuning the cockpit.
> 
> Oh, and fatter tyres when I can find them, they were here somewhere...


Fatter tyres were found and installed (from Maxxis 32mm Raze's to 43mm Wormdrive's).
Gravel test is done.
It was painful and made me doubt the whole concept 
The Raze's are back on and I'm going to do it again tomorrow and see if there's a positive difference.
Hopefully it's just the tyres, or me and not the bike.
Got some old Hope Pro 2 Evo hubs (blue) and WTB i25 650b rims to build up into some lighter and fatter wheels which should help a lot.
It's rolling, shifting and braking very nicely otherwise.
11kg at the moment with spare tube, pump, tools, rear mudguard and garmin 810 speedo.


----------



## tablatom (Feb 8, 2018)

NordieBoy said:


> Fatter tyres were found and installed (from Maxxis 32mm Raze's to 43mm Wormdrive's).
> Gravel test is done.
> It was painful and made me doubt the whole concept
> The Raze's are back on and I'm going to do it again tomorrow and see if there's a positive difference.
> ...


Here's ya solution, without having to build those wheels.
https://www.cxmagazine.com/gravel-bike-cannondale-superx-2018-dirty-kanza-200-kaitie-keough-ted-king
The 2 champions rode Maxxis Ramblers. 38c woman, 40c man.
Good enough for them, good enough for all of us regular folk.

The problem WE ALL face now-a-days is TOO MUCH CHOICE.

Einstein had 10 identical suits. Because he had more important things to do than wasting time on choosing clothes each day.

I too suffer from indecision, oh the dilemmas we have buying the right kit LOL,
but imagine an African farmer, who has to save for 1 year just to buy 1 bike, a bike most of us would pass on in a heart beat, so he can get to the market faster to sell his produce. Thats the reality for most of the world.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Yep, if I stay with 29", Ramblers would be my first choice - if they actually had some locally.
However my 29" wheels are my old Kona Unit WTB ST i23's and quite heavy.
Could probably save at least 300g per wheel with the Hope/650b Frequency Team i25/double butted spoke setup.


----------



## tablatom (Feb 8, 2018)

NordieBoy said:


> Yep, if I stay with 29", Ramblers would be my first choice - if they actually had some locally.
> However my 29" wheels are my old Kona Unit WTB ST i23's and quite heavy.
> Could probably save at least 300g per wheel with the Hope/650b Frequency Team i25/double butted spoke setup.


yup, I too like light wheels


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> Fatter tyres were found and installed (from Maxxis 32mm Raze's to 43mm Wormdrive's).
> Gravel test is done.
> It was painful and made me doubt the whole concept
> The Raze's are back on and I'm going to do it again tomorrow and see if there's a positive difference.
> Hopefully it's just the tyres, or me and not the bike.


Wormdrives were run at 30f/35r.
Same ride with the Raze's at 40f/45r psi and it was only a minute faster over the 23min total, but my heart rate was 10bpm lower, power was 30w lower and it felt a lot better.


----------



## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

NordieBoy said:


> Wormdrives were run at 30f/35r.
> Same ride with the Raze's at 40f/45r psi and it was only a minute faster over the 23min total, but my heart rate was 10bpm lower, power was 30w lower and it felt a lot better.


Think about trying Panaracer Gravel King SK's in as wide as you're comfortable with - they're really fast, great ride quality, and sets up tubeless really easily.


----------



## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

tablatom said:


> Fantastic website, you guys in the States are spoiled for choice with off road biking.
> What tyres are those on the bike? Look like 2.2 Conti Race King's?


Yep, Raceking rear that day, Rocket Ron front. Both set up tubeless. Lately, 2.1 RR front, Thunderburt rear, also tubeless. Fast everywhere.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Tanwall Specialized Sawtooth 42c's.
3mm clearance on the 26er seat stays.
Set up tubeless very nicely and roll and track very well.
Tried 35r/30f and if they're still the same pressure in the morning, I'll drop them to 30r/25f for the next test.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Very quick rolling when up to speed, good balance and a surprising amount of grip. Power was way down on what I'd normally do on these track's, but I'm usually on a rigid single speed, so gears are just weird.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

can I ride my gravel e-bike in KD200?


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> Very quick rolling when up to speed, good balance and a surprising amount of grip. Power was way down on what I'd normally do on these track's, but I'm usually on a rigid single speed, so gears are just weird.


Looking at my stats for the ride and these tyres (and gears) really make a difference.
About 30w and 10-15bpm lower than on the knobbed up single speed for a similar time.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> can I ride my gravel e-bike in KD200?


Go for it and report back


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## enduro72 (May 11, 2017)

My Gravel adventure Hardtail


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

Hey, why not? I'd rather ride the wrong bike than not ride because I don't have the right bike.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> Hey, why not? I'd rather ride the wrong bike than not ride because I don't have the right bike.
> View attachment 1217808


FTW!

Sent from my LGMS210 using Tapatalk


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## steinercat (Apr 25, 2014)

jms said:


> Meanwhile.............
> 
> I built mine up with this in mind:
> 
> https://oregontimbertrail.org/


Another reason I can't wait to move to Oregon.:thumbsup:


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

jcd46 said:


> FTW!
> 
> Sent from my LGMS210 using Tapatalk


This did FTW...








51km gravel race.
Almost everyone else did the 81km version it was such a nice day, but I had to get back home earlier 
A win is a win though 

Could have done with higher gearing, but would have had to walk 2 of the hills.


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## J3h (Sep 21, 2018)




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## Gmntn (Jul 19, 2018)

I just got a new mountain bike but I ride the streets for exercise more than single track trails and found I am interested in bikepacking. My current tires are 29X2.25, what would be a better narrow hybrid tire for the roads but decent for tame single track?


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Gmntn said:


> I just got a new mountain bike but I ride the streets for exercise more than single track trails and found I am interested in bikepacking. My current tires are 29X2.25, what would be a better narrow hybrid tire for the roads but decent for tame single track?


No need to go narrow if you have the clearance.

Get a set of Schwalbe Big Apples or a similar large volume tyre. Just make sure you get one with supple sidewalls and you'll find they roll well on the road, and have plenty grip on gravel. A large volume tyre run at low pressures conforms to the surface and gives more grip than you'd expect. I've done thousands of miles with that set up and prefer it to using my bikes with narrow tyres.

It is also way more comfortable.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

+1, get a faster rolling 2.25.

I'm riding 43s, wish I would have the clearance for 2.2"!


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Gmntn said:


> I just got a new mountain bike but I ride the streets for exercise more than single track trails and found I am interested in bikepacking. My current tires are 29X2.25, what would be a better narrow hybrid tire for the roads but decent for tame single track?


Specialized Sawtooth.


----------



## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

*Why not "Gravel" a Hardtail*



NordieBoy said:


> Specialized Sawtooth.


The Specialized FastTrak tires roll nice and fast too.
Maxxis has a few that are great for pavement as well.
I agree. Stay with 2.0" - 2.25" tires. No need to go narrower than that.


----------



## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

Gmntn said:


> I just got a new mountain bike but I ride the streets for exercise more than single track trails and found I am interested in bikepacking. My current tires are 29X2.25, what would be a better narrow hybrid tire for the roads but decent for tame single track?


Options:

Schwalbe Thunderburts 2.25 Snakeskin

Continental Raceking 2.25 Protections

Maxxis Aspen 2.25 EXO


----------



## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

I would also add the Schwalbe G-one Allround which comes in 2.25 in both 27.5 and 29.


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

Pics from last weekends iowa gravel ride. I must confess though I was on my Wolverine not my rigid hard tail 😞


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

iowamtb said:


> Pics from last weekends iowa gravel ride. I must confess though I was on my Wolverine not my rigid hard tail


Looks like a nice place to ride. Nice pictures!


----------



## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

iowamtb said:


> Pics from last weekends iowa gravel ride. I must confess though I was on my Wolverine not my rigid hard tail


Looks like a nice ride but that sign has me thinking it's the wrong side of the state for me to get to in a reasonable amount of time.


----------



## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

bitflogger said:


> Looks like a nice ride but that sign has me thinking it's the wrong side of the state for me to get to in a reasonable amount of time.


West side.....


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## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

life behind bars said:


> View attachment 1213996
> 
> 
> 1890's. "Gravel" wasn't a marketing catchphrase.


Neither was a sloping top tube. It looks like an Electra Ticino which goes to show nothing is really new.


----------



## ccand51997 (Aug 28, 2018)

HollyBoni said:


> I would also add the Schwalbe G-one Allround which comes in 2.25 in both 27.5 and 29.


I have been riding the G-One Allround (36mm), the Conti Raceking Protection (57mm) and a WTB Nano (39mm) for the last six months or so on different bikes. A recent experiment with the Nano/Allround combo at 22 and 25 psi convinced me that they are as comfortable as the bigger tires when you drop the pressure down. The Allround on the back at 25psi really smooths out the bumps and washboard. And they are faster on the road. I have waffled between bikes with bigger and smaller tires and prefer smaller on rides that are known. If I am going out to do some exploring then I take the monster cross/gravel with the 2.2 Racekings for float in the sand--and that bike has a shock.


----------



## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

ccand51997 said:


> ...A recent experiment with the Nano/Allround combo at 22 and 25 psi convinced me that they are as comfortable as the bigger tires when you drop the pressure down...


That's interesting.

It's much lower than I have thought to go with that size tyre because I'd expect rim strike and snakebite punctures at that pressure (80kg). Even with tubulars ( a long time ago) I would never drop below 35psi.

Have you had any such problems? Or maybe your gravel is smoother than ours.


----------



## ccand51997 (Aug 28, 2018)

Velobike said:


> It's much lower than I have thought to go with that size tyre because I'd expect rim strike and snakebite punctures at that pressure (80kg). Even with tubulars ( a long time ago) I would never drop below 35psi.
> 
> Have you had any such problems? Or maybe your gravel is smoother than ours.


I should have added that I am running both of them tubeless, so no, I have not had an issue with them at that pressure. The only problem so far was back in Aug at the Fire Road 100K in Cedar City, UT. I remember standing at the line and hearing the director talk about the course and say, "And then you will get to the descent and all you guys riding gravel bikes will wish you had mountain bikes and suspension." Well, he was correct. Both of the big descents were horrible on 36-40mm tires. On the second one I took some air out to 25 psi and held on for dear life, but eventually, I realized that my front was going flat and by near the bottom it had burped out all my air. Fortunately, it held a seal and I just had to stop and pump it up again. That front tire is mounted on a cheap wide rim that came with the bike (a $300 girl's hybrid I stole from my daughter when I could not afford an entirely new bike). My rear is at DT Swiss rim supposedly tubeless easy and had no issues with the Allround burping. I've ridden it as low as 20 by accident and that gets a little bouncy on the back.


----------



## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

ccand51997 said:


> I should have added that I am running both of them tubeless, so no, I have not had an issue with them at that pressure....


That's good to hear.

Obviously I'm going to have to get more enterprising and get rid of tubes.


----------



## CrankShack (Jul 10, 2018)

smoothmoose said:


> Interesting, so your brakes and shifters are on the drop extensions? So the only issue I see here is you are on the flatbar bombing down for stability, you have not brakes!


 It's the other way around. I have my main brakes and the shifters on my flatbar. My drops has "secondary" brakes which shares the brake lines to the front and back disc brakes accordingly.


----------



## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Velobike said:


> That's interesting.
> 
> It's much lower than I have thought to go with that size tyre because I'd expect rim strike and snakebite punctures at that pressure (80kg). Even with tubulars ( a long time ago) I would never drop below 35psi.
> 
> Have you had any such problems? Or maybe your gravel is smoother than ours.


I run my 43mm GravelKing SKs at the front at 30psi. On gravel no problems of course, but when I go to harsher terrain I bottom out the front tyres a lot. An unexpected root, rock, or a hole in the ground and bam the rim hits the ground. I'm running them tubeless so no pinch punctures, and I haven't dinged or dented a rim yet but it's not ideal.

I remember one time there was this little curb and after that a grassy dirt incline. I wanted to do a little nollie and land on the incline. As I put my weight on the front to lift up the back the tyre collapsed and the rim hit the ground.  This was at 30psi.

So you can run these kind of pressure but you really have to be careful. (I weigh 70kg just for reference)


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

Raced my alu HT instead of the CX for last two gravel races and thoroughly enjoyed it... except it's heft lol. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

This!

https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/news/the-dirt-how-and-why-kabush-won-iceman-on-a-gravel-bike_481072


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## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

jms said:


> This!
> 
> https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/news/the-dirt-how-and-why-kabush-won-iceman-on-a-gravel-bike_481072


How cool is that? a turquoise colored 'Yeti' won the Iceman Cometh in John Tomac's home state!!


----------



## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

A Yeti colored OPEN U.P....not a Yeti...but maybe it’ll prompt them to develop one!


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

I raced Iceman on alu HT (and hitting 8000miles on that frame), started wave 11, we had an amazing time and I got to chat with Pendrel! There were spots where it was bumpy and sometimes i wish i was on FS just to make it nicer lol. Not a whole lotta roots, the bumps were kinda like fresh cut trail kinda bumps so you just had to get your ass up and soak em up.

One thing for sure though as it did feel like we were riding into a headwind so I def made a point to draft as much as possible. I'd imagine that helped Kabush a bit.

My vid of Kabush finishing:


----------



## francky94 (Dec 28, 2018)

*Gravel a F29 ?*

Hello all,

I have a Cannondale F29 that I do not use, and I wanted to transform it to a gravel bike.
I wanted your help about the size of the bike and the geometry.
I use a Supersix Evo where I am great in terms of size, so let's compare F29, Supersix and Slate to see the difference between them...
Why a Slate ? Because it has a lefty and it is a gravel bike 

Here is a comparison between the 3 geometries :








I was thinking putting a drop bar to the F29, like Ritchey Comp Evomax :
https://eu.ritcheylogic.com/eu_en/comp-evomax-handlebar
with a relatively short reach.

So I was wondering how much the stem shoud be shorter ?
Do I only have to pay attention to the Reach values, so I "only" have 30mm difference between F29 and Slate, so I only have to put a 70/80mm stem instead of my actuel 110mm stem on the F29 and everything's OK ?
Or do I have to take the TT length and have an (even shorter) stem like 50 or 60mm for example (I don't think it is possible because the top of the Lefty will interfere with the bar...)... And I am afraid of maniability with a such shorter stem !

I am aware of the Stack difference, not a problem for me, I want a comfy bike... Actually the Supersix have a lot of spacers between top of the head tube and the bar, at least 40 or 50mm 
BB Drops are the same, chainstay length is longer and wheelbase too so the bike will be "peaceful" if I can say...
I think putting big tires > 2" but not too big too, because I want the bike to be easier on the road than today with my big MTB tires. Maybe a good "in between" could be a Specialized Renegade (I have one in stock  ) or a Bontrager XR1 or a Maxxis Ikon...
I'm not already decided on this point 

Thanks for your help


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## jms (Feb 4, 2006)

francky94 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have a Cannondale F29 that I do not use, and I wanted to transform it to a gravel bike.
> I wanted your help about the size of the bike and the geometry.
> ...


80mm stem works well. All the benefits of the trend toward shorter stem length on mountain bikes seem to work with these drop bar bikes.


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## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

don't be afraid to experiment with different length and rise of stem. They are relatively cheap and you can always resell them if they are not the right fit.


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## Zest28 (Dec 29, 2018)

The gravel bike is only suitable for gravel, hence why they call it a gravel bike.

For road use, my aero bike just destroys the gravel bike. I have been monitoring Strava and there is a substainal speed difference.

In the mountains, my full suspension mountainbike also destroys the gravel bike. With the Gravel bike I can do single trails but not all of them. I know which ones to avoid luckly.

But on gravel, it is quite fun. Some people look at me funny when I am racing at 30 mph on loose gravel as they think it is a regular road bike. I am suprised I never crashed yet as I enter corners at very high speed too.

My aero bike and mountain bike can also handle gravel, but not at the same speed as my Gravel bike can do it.


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

Zest28 said:


> The gravel bike is only suitable for gravel, hence why they call it a gravel bike.
> 
> For road use, my aero bike just destroys the gravel bike. I have been monitoring Strava and there is a substainal speed difference.
> 
> ...


BandedsawReynolds,
welcome back to the conversation.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Zest28 said:


> The gravel bike is only suitable for gravel, hence why they call it a gravel bike.


They are called "gravel bikes" because the name "road bikes" had already been coopted by what should really be called "pavement bikes".

But I guess it depends on the bike, because "gravel" seems to cover a wide range of bikes.

Some gravel bikes have knobby 2+" tires and wide range 1x11 drivetrains. Yeah, those are not going to be stellar on pavement.

Others (like mine) are basically fat-tired road bikes. With fast 35-38mm slick tires and 2x11 "road" gearing, it is every bit at home on pavement as on dirt/gravel roads. Yes on pavement I am a hair slower on it than I was on my previous skinny tired road bike, but the difference is small enough that it would really only matter if I was racing. One thing is for sure, It is a hell of a lot better on pavement than a typical road bike with 25s is on gravel.

Maybe what i have should be called "All Road"? In any event, I sold my pavement bike years ago and have never once missed it, even on long pavement rides. But again, I am not racing, so if I am a minute slower over a one hour ride, It just doesn't matter.


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## Zest28 (Dec 29, 2018)

I disagree, they are not all-road. That is basically what my mountain bike is as it can literally handle any surface.

I already have one of the fastest rolling tyres on my Gravel bike and changing to slicks would be pointless as I will loose the performance on Gravel while still being slower than my aero bike on the road as it lacks the aerodynamics, is heavier and also doesn’t have 60mm deep section wheels. 

Gravel bike is a fitting title for this bike as on these types of surfaces is where it excels. 

I could probably live with only my Gravel bike ofcourse. But I don’t consider it as an ideal solution. I’m not selling my aero bike and my full suspension mountain bike.


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

kapusta said:


> They are called "gravel bikes" because the name "road bikes" had already been coopted by what should really be called "pavement bikes".
> 
> But I guess it depends on the bike, because "gravel" seems to cover a wide range of bikes.
> 
> ...


The last part of this is the real distinction. All of these specialized terms basically refer to bikes only suitable for racing. Most of the people buying bikes are not racing, in fact if you are racing with any success you don't have to buy your own bike. It is probably confusing to those who just want to buy a sensible bike. Something like "all road" or "all surface" is descriptive, while "gravel" or "cross" is mostly marketing.

One minute slower over an hour isn't going to ruin my day. My road bikes collect dust most of the time now, and I do most pavement rides on something comfy and practical rather than something potentially 0.1% faster. Have always wondered what people do with that extra 27 seconds gained by spending thousands more dollars. Must be incredibly profitable what ever it is.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

sapva said:


> One minute slower over an hour isn't going to ruin my day. My road bikes collect dust most of the time now, and I do most pavement rides on something comfy and practical rather than something potentially 0.1% faster. Have always wondered what people do with that extra 27 seconds gained by spending thousands more dollars. Must be incredibly profitable what ever it is.


Probably more like 3 or 4 minutes faster per hour, not that it really matters. I love my raced out road bike even though I don't race it, and I'm sure I'm not alone. For me it's super comfy and fun on pavement and I appreciate a spirited ride.

I would like to get a nice gravel bike but I doubt I'd hang up my roadie if I did. For now my hardtail will suffice


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

sapva said:


> The last part of this is the real distinction. All of these specialized terms basically refer to bikes only suitable for racing. Most of the people buying bikes are not racing, in fact if you are racing with any success you don't have to buy your own bike. It is probably confusing to those who just want to buy a sensible bike. Something like "all road" or "all surface" is descriptive, while "gravel" or "cross" is mostly marketing.
> 
> One minute slower over an hour isn't going to ruin my day. My road bikes collect dust most of the time now, and I do most pavement rides on something comfy and practical rather than something potentially 0.1% faster. Have always wondered what people do with that extra 27 seconds gained by spending thousands more dollars. Must be incredibly profitable what ever it is.


Why do you have a road bike? Why do you even OWN bikes, is something wrong with your feet?

Just because you don't like something beyond your arbitrary line of stupid it doesn't mean that it's beyond everyone's arbitrary line of stupid.


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

richde said:


> Why do you have a road bike? Why do you even OWN bikes, is something wrong with your feet?
> 
> Just because you don't like something beyond your arbitrary line of stupid it doesn't mean that it's beyond everyone's arbitrary line of stupid.


Lol! I actually encourage everyone to exceed their own arbitrary line of stupid once in a while. But to answer your question; I just enjoy riding and my feet are just fine (thank you for your concern).


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Zest28 said:


> I disagree, they are not all-road. That is basically what my mountain bike is *as it can* *literally handle any surface*.


Define handle. A gravel bike with big tyres can handle singletrack but it does poorly. You can ride a mountain bike on long road rides but it sucks.

There is always a compromise, there is no do it all bike that is perfect for every type of riding.

You often hear gravel bikes described as 'jack of all trades, master of none'. I think that's true. I can do a wide variety of riding on my gravel bike. Pavement, dirt roads, gravel, some short rougher offroad sections. And while it's not perfect on all of those surfaces, it's still enjoyable, and I don't feel like my bike is holding me back. Although i'm not the Strava racey type.

I'm not anti MTB at all. I love them and if we had big mountains where I lived I wouldn't ride anything other than MTBs. But for some folks gravel bikes can make more sense for how they ride and what kind of terrain they ride on. Also I can't deal with straight bars on long rides but that's another story.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Zest28 said:


> I already have one of the fastest rolling tyres on my Gravel bike and changing to slicks would be pointless as I will loose the performance on Gravel


Well everyone knows what works best for them.

But I have to ask: What non-slick is "one of the fastest rolling tires"? When it comes to pavement, even semi knobs slow you down a bit. Some semi-knob tires are pretty fast for what they are, but they are still slower on pavement.

In my experience I never found slicks (or at least a fine file tread) to be a problem on gravel or dirt roads unless it was muddy. Unless there is some mud or soft dirt, I don't find treads really help me much. But this may depend on what the gravel/dirt roads are like where you live.

I am curious, what setup do you find best for rides that involve a mix of pavement and dirt/gravel roads?


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## Zest28 (Dec 29, 2018)

I use 38mm tyres from Schwalbe. It is fast enough compared to Strava times I set on a very old non-aero road bike that I had in the past (hence why I am super impressed how fast these tyres roll as they are not slicks)

They offer enough grip to go into the mountains and do some single trails quite suprisingly if you are careful. 

But if there is deep mud, I will avoid those sections as these tyres don't have the grip it seems. But the speed on pavement makes up for it.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Zest28 said:


> The gravel bike is only suitable for gravel, hence why they call it a gravel bike.
> 
> For road use, my aero bike just destroys the gravel bike. I have been monitoring Strava and there is a substantial speed difference.
> 
> ...


My aero road bike is faster on flat, smooth roads. For sure.
On rolling hills it was close enough that my mood made the difference, and any variance in conditioning totally overwhelmed it.
Climbing >1000' hills it wasn't uncommon for there to be a small gap on the climb, but no gap after the subsequent descent. Longer wheelbase, more grip- gravel bike owns the downhill.
On pockmarked back roads the gravel bike is much faster.
Gravel bike is amusing on singletrack, but it's no MTB. Road bike doesn't go on singletrack.

I haven't ridden my aero bike since i got the gravel bike. I just never want to. I like fast descents and shitty back roads. Flat tarmac is the commute, not the ride. On group rides it's not a handicap, i just take shorter pulls up front, ?maybe?. Overall the gravel bike is faster and more fun, with no downside for me. What exactly a 'gravel bike' is, and how it fits in to your cycling is for you to determine.

One of my favorite things to do is spend an hour looking at maps and create a route that connects a bunch of supposedly established roads that might not exist any more. The gravel bike is the perfect tool to explore them.


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

I'm gonna eat my earlier words about drop bars. I built a 2019 Fargo from the frame up in December. The Fargo is a mtb technically so I assume it qualifies for this thread. Running 29x3.0 Maxxis Chronicles and honestly this is the most comfortable bike I have been on. The gravel dissolves under the tires and according to my strava readings I am actually faster on this bike. It is badass...


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

iowamtb said:


> I'm gonna eat my earlier words about drop bars. I built a 2019 Fargo from the frame up in December. The Fargo is a mtb technically so I assume it qualifies for this thread. Running 29x3.0 Maxxis Chronicles and honestly this is the most comfortable bike I have been on. The gravel dissolves under the tires and according to my strava readings I am actually faster on this bike. It is badass...
> View attachment 1235130
> 
> View attachment 1235131
> ...


Oh wow, looks so buff, and looks so badass in black. Super jealous! Now you just need a camo frame bag.


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## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

richde said:


> Why do you have a road bike? Why do you even OWN bikes, is something wrong with your feet?
> 
> Just because you don't like something beyond your arbitrary line of stupid it doesn't mean that it's beyond everyone's arbitrary line of stupid.


I've never quite heard it put that way. "Arbitrary line of stupid" is bound to make it to Urban Dictionary.


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

HollyBoni said:


> Oh wow, looks so buff, and looks so badass in black. Super jealous! Now you just need a camo frame bag.


Thanks. I wasn't sure at first cause I already own a black Wolverine but it's growing on me. As far as riding I am not sure if this bike just fits me better than my Wolvie but I can ride longer with less discomfort. I am not leaned forward as far as I do on my Wolverine. Less aero for sure but easier on my back and wrists.


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

I gravelled my old 2007 Jabberwocky. I ran some Origin8 Batwing bars for a year and could never really get comfy on it. Way too much sweep for me. I started researching drops bars and someone on MTBR pointed me to some Soma drops that have big flair but are MTB size so I could stick with my MTB shifter. It works well and I find myself riding this more than the roadie or SS lately which is kind of shocking.









Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


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## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

The term "Gravel Bike" is nothing more than a marketing term to drive sales. Same with cyclocross bikes, cross trainer bikes, hybrids, ....
The bike industry knows that if they create a new class of bikes, they will sell more than if they just introduce a different frame into the existing categories. That is why we now have downhill bikes, all mountain bike, cross country bikes, trail bikes, all in the mountain bike category.
Yes there are minor differences in design, but the driving force in the sales comes from being in a different category other than off road use. Many riders here have a DH, an AM, and a XC. They could use one bike for all 3 types of riding, and most should, but they want a specific DH bike for their 3 trips a year to the slopes, they want a full suspension AM for some trails, a hardtail for single track, and an XC for less technical trails. It's just good marketing by the industry.

Many will say they are faster on a gravel bike, but that is because AM are now 1x drivetrains. When they were 3x8, I could ride as fast as a road bike. I had friends that used 2.0 street slicks on their AM and they would ride 30 mile group rides with the roadies. It annoyed a few of the purists/ snobs in the group, but no one could argue that they couldn't keep up.


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

Very well put.


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## khardrunner14 (Aug 16, 2010)

A/C in Az said:


> The term "Gravel Bike" is nothing more than a marketing term to drive sales. Same with cyclocross bikes, cross trainer bikes, hybrids, ....
> The bike industry knows that if they create a new class of bikes, they will sell more than if they just introduce a different frame into the existing categories. That is why we now have downhill bikes, all mountain bike, cross country bikes, trail bikes, all in the mountain bike category.
> Yes there are minor differences in design, but the driving force in the sales comes from being in a different category other than off road use. Many riders here have a DH, an AM, and a XC. They could use one bike for all 3 types of riding, and most should, but they want a specific DH bike for their 3 trips a year to the slopes, they want a full suspension AM for some trails, a hardtail for single track, and an XC for less technical trails. It's just good marketing by the industry.
> 
> Many will say they are faster on a gravel bike, but that is because AM are now 1x drivetrains. When they were 3x8, I could ride as fast as a road bike. I had friends that used 2.0 street slicks on their AM and they would ride 30 mile group rides with the roadies. It annoyed a few of the purists/ snobs in the group, but no one could argue that they couldn't keep up.


Respectfully I call bull on this...

I have a CX bike, road bike and a HT. I've ridden other stuff as well. Ultimately, the three bikes I have CAN be ridden on any surface, but just because they CAN does not mean that it will be as effective. I don't care what tires I have on my hardtail, it isn't as fast or as comfortable as the gravel/cx bike on multi-surface riding until it gets really, really technical. Both are 1x systems.

The cx bike isn't as efficient or fast as my Domane on pure road rides. Neither can touch a HT bike on single track.

While you can ride any bike anywhere, it doesn't mean it will be as fast, comfortable or fun. In reality, I don't care what you call the different bikes. Nevertheless, different bikes are suited to different conditions, trails, surfaces. If you want a bike that can sorta do everything, sweet, go for it. If you have some cash and want to buy an Enduro for enduro races, an XC for XC racing, a DH for your 3 trips to the lifts, a gravel bike for adventures, a CX race rig for winter pain, and a road bike just because... that is cool too.


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## ccand51997 (Aug 28, 2018)

While I will agree that marketing is driving the current gravel bike push, I completely disagree that any bike can cross over into other disciplines without a loss of performance. I have accumulated five bikes over the last 10 years that I will categorize as 1. An aero triathlon/tt bike 2. a traditional road bike with clearance for barely 26mm tires 3. an all-surface bike that I prefer for a 50/50 dirt/road mix where I know I am not going to encounter super crazy stuff that I can't handle on a 38mm tire 4. a converted fat bike with drop bars, suspension and 29in tires that is my all-surface bike when I explore and/or know that I am going to have some more mtb-like conditions 5. a fat bike with 4.5in tires. 

Each of those bikes does something very well and crossing over one category is not going to cause a huge drop in performance. Cross over two though, and I will start to suffer. My tri bike off road (I've done it a few times when my pavement unexpectedly ran out) is not much fun. I rode my gravel bike on a road-only ride recently and enjoyed it. I've taken the #4 on rides that ended up being 75 percent smooth roads and it was a beast to get up the hills on pavement. Not horrible, just not optimum. 

You already hit on the reason why one might "need" all those bikes. Tires. Cycling performance comes down to what you are rolling. Sure, you can ride a dual-suspension on the road but if you are riding 2.8 tires then I am going to drop you in about 5 seconds unless you are a superstud. And gearing, of course, as you also pointed out. I could put 30mm tires with new rims on my fat bike with new wheels if I wanted and achieve 90 percent of the performance, but each of them is better than the other in subtle ways. 
If I was forced to only have one bike, I would have a machine that would clear up to 3 inch tires, no suspension, drop bars and multiple wheelsets for different types of rides. (the only thing that would not address was time trialing, which is nothing like the others) I have a big garage though, so five bikes is not a problem for me.


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## ccand51997 (Aug 28, 2018)

Nevertheless, different bikes are suited to different conditions, trails, surfaces. If you want a bike that can sorta do everything, sweet, go for it. If you have some cash and want to buy an Enduro for enduro races, an XC for XC racing, a DH for your 3 trips to the lifts, a gravel bike for adventures, a CX race rig for winter pain, and a road bike just because... that is cool too.[/QUOTE]

I was too long-winded and you beat me to my point!


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

A/C in Az said:


> The term "Gravel Bike" is nothing more than a marketing term to drive sales. Same with cyclocross bikes, cross trainer bikes, hybrids, ....
> The bike industry knows that if they create a new class of bikes, they will sell more than if they just introduce a different frame into the existing categories. That is why we now have downhill bikes, all mountain bike, cross country bikes, trail bikes, all in the mountain bike category.
> Yes there are minor differences in design, but the driving force in the sales comes from being in a different category other than off road use. Many riders here have a DH, an AM, and a XC. They could use one bike for all 3 types of riding, and most should, but they want a specific DH bike for their 3 trips a year to the slopes, they want a full suspension AM for some trails, a hardtail for single track, and an XC for less technical trails. It's just good marketing by the industry.
> 
> Many will say they are faster on a gravel bike, but that is because AM are now 1x drivetrains. When they were 3x8, I could ride as fast as a road bike. I had friends that used 2.0 street slicks on their AM and they would ride 30 mile group rides with the roadies. It annoyed a few of the purists/ snobs in the group, but no one could argue that they couldn't keep up.


How about you ride whatever the heck you like?

Gravel bikes are amazing, and to me I pick any of my bikes depending on my mood, and have different experiences riding a variety of bikes and tereain.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

A/C in Az said:


> I had friends that used 2.0 street slicks on their AM and they would ride 30 mile group rides with the roadies. It annoyed a few of the purists/ snobs in the group, but no one could argue that they couldn't keep up.


Your friends must been beasts, world class professional cyclists rarely average 30mph on a group ride. If he would have been on a nice road bike he probably could have gone at least 20% faster and left those chumps in his wake.

Sure it's all marketing but so what? Bike companies gotta sell bikes, the industry discovered a nitch and filled it. They had to call them something and some people are going to moan and groan no matter what name was decided on.

As a consumer and someone who might eventually buy one it's hard for me to see any downsides.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> Your friends must been beasts, world class professional cyclists rarely average 30mph on a group ride. If he would have been on a nice road bike he probably could have gone at least 20% faster and left those chumps in his wake.
> 
> Sure it's all marketing but so what? Bike companies gotta sell bikes, the industry discovered a nitch and filled it. They had to call them something and some people are going to moan and groan no matter what name was decided on.
> 
> As a consumer and someone who might eventually buy one it's hard for me to see any downsides.


30 mile rides, not 30 mph


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

*Why not "Gravel" a Hardtail*



khardrunner14 said:


> Respectfully I call bull on this...
> 
> I have a CX bike, road bike and a HT. I've ridden other stuff as well. Ultimately, the three bikes I have CAN be ridden on any surface, but just because they CAN does not mean that it will be as effective. I don't care what tires I have on my hardtail, it isn't as fast or as comfortable as the gravel/cx bike on multi-surface riding until it gets really, really technical. Both are 1x systems.
> 
> ...


Agree 100%.
I used to ride a HT on gravel, and on pavement sometimes too, and it was fine. Sure, any bike can do it. But since I bought a CX/Gravel bike I have come to realize that it is more efficient and enjoyable on gravel and pavement than the HT.
I now use the HT only for the trails and mtb parks.


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

ccand51997 said:


> While I will agree that marketing is driving the current gravel bike push


All that needs to be said. Gravel is just marketing bs. The same bikes with slightly bigger tires. The reality is that manufacturers market bikes supposedly capable of taking a few seconds off a 20 mile ride to people who's livelihood does not depend on winning races. Shame on the manufacturers for not making at least a few more practical bikes in the first place. Drop bars only exist for people to emulate pro road riders who have to adhere to outdated uci rules. If they really wanted to make faster bikes, they would all come with pursuit bars. If they wanted to make bikes for comfort, they would all have flat bars or bullhorns and a long wheelbase. And if they wanted to make true do it all bikes, they would all have a minimum clearance for two inch tires and a dropper post.

Full disclosure. I've run out of room in my two car garage for more bikes. But the rides that get the bulk of the miles are an old steel touring bike with 32mm tires and bullhorns, and a hardtail.


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## mrpercussive (Apr 4, 2006)

Got a gimbal and slapped it on my buddy as he followed me down Chaparral. First time using a gimbal so i'll get the angle right for next time. Also first time running Davinci Resolve... Bike is a 2000 Kona Cinder Cone with 100mm R7 and 26X1.5 Nashbar Streetwise slick tires. Running 50mm stem with a 44cm Salsa road bar


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

sapva said:


> All that needs to be said. Gravel is just marketing bs. The same bikes with slightly bigger tires. The reality is that manufacturers market bikes supposedly capable of taking a few seconds off a 20 mile ride to people who's livelihood does not depend on winning races. Shame on the manufacturers for not making at least a few more practical bikes in the first place. Drop bars only exist for people to emulate pro road riders who have to adhere to outdated uci rules. If they really wanted to make faster bikes, they would all come with pursuit bars. If they wanted to make bikes for comfort, they would all have flat bars or bullhorns and a long wheelbase. And if they wanted to make true do it all bikes, they would all have a minimum clearance for two inch tires and a dropper post.
> 
> Full disclosure. I've run out of room in my two car garage for more bikes. But the rides that get the bulk of the miles are an old steel touring bike with 32mm tires and bullhorns, and a hardtail.


I agree with your central idea... but i dunno.

Drop bars are useful. The big obvious benefit is that they give you a comfortable, aerodynamic forward-weighted position for descending. Think about how a street motorcycle handles compared to a dirt bike. ...Or for tailgating your buddy.

A lot of road riders don't really give a **** if they're 1-2% slower than they could be, but a bike that drops like a bomb and is more comfortable while still being nimble is pretty sweet. Gravel bikes are a great alternative, and you can get one that's jumpy like a road-race bike, or sedate like a tourer. 'Progress' and the variability of crappy roads haven't pidgeonholed the category, so the different interpretations have something different to offer. Cool!

The commercial road bike market has been chasing UCI rules and gram shaving and aero stuff for a long time. It's nice to see them hawking stuff that makes road bikes more fun, rather than chasing that last 5 watts. Marketing is about money; i'm happier ignoring it.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

As far as I'm concerned a gravel bike is a bike built for comfortable use on the road with the capabilities to take tyres capable of handling the worst of surfaces that dirt tracks degrade to, ie large volume tyres.

Think competent SUV rather than gnarly 4wd, and aimed at people who just want to get out there and enjoy the outdoors rather than shred it.


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

Could have done with a gravel bike tonight - had to negotiate a couple of km of 60mm ballast on the roadie. Super surprised I kept it upright and didn’t puncture


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

scottzg said:


> The commercial road bike market has been chasing UCI rules and gram shaving and aero stuff for a long time. It's nice to see them hawking stuff that makes road bikes more fun, rather than chasing that last 5 watts. Marketing is about money; i'm happier ignoring it.


Yes. But then they are really just bikes. The trend has been fairly obvious over the past ten years or so. Bikes can be so light now that the grams don't matter as much. Tires have been getting bigger, rims wider. Most people never use their drop position because the hoods have become larger and more comfortable. And I'd bet that the majority of "gravel bikes" rarely if ever see long uninterrupted trips on gravel roads. Have to wonder if they aren't loosing more sales to people looking for a sensible bike than they gain by upselling everything as some specialty tool.


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

sapva said:


> And I'd bet that the majority of "gravel bikes" rarely if ever see long uninterrupted trips on gravel roads.


Kind of like all the people that have a 4x4 suv for the status not for the need lol. But most the people I know or ride with do lots of gravel so your statement is six to one half dozen to another. I can see what your getting at on the other hand.....a person is sold into an adventure rig and then they do 95% of their riding on the flat urban trail system around their local city.


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## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

I think everybody here has figured out that bikes are way more flexible than most people give them credit for.

What's hard to not miss the forest for the trees on is that bikes are so good in general, the way to improve is all really small marginal gains (at usually high cost considering how much we're into diminishing returns territory), and that the way to get the biggest net improvement for one use case when doing this is to try and make it more specialized at the expense of flexibility, or by making smaller marginal gains to keep that flexibility.

I choose to run a really unusual XC hardtail and use that as my trail/XC/gravel/road bike, but I know it's a worse road bike than even an old out of date one with cheaper parts and a less fancy build. All I gain is that I can then hike it up some silly side of a mountain and rip down chundery dirt trails with it in exchange for it being worse on the road (but I certainly wouldn't want drop bars and associated brake lever configurations when I'm bombing downhill on dirt).


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## mikeridesabike (Feb 16, 2009)

I’m guessing that soon we will have different for large gravel vs. pea gravel.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

mikeridesabike said:


> I'm guessing that soon we will have different for large gravel vs. pea gravel.


lol we already do.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

sapva said:


> ...And I'd bet that the majority of "gravel bikes" rarely if ever see long uninterrupted trips on gravel roads...


I don't think that matters. You could make the same observation about the majority of road bikes on the road.

It's the ability to go offroad in safety and comfort if you feel like it that is the attraction, just like a SUV. There's the added benefit that they are safer on poorly maintained ordinary roads too.

It's simply a return to the sensible all-purpose lightweight bike, rather than some racing category.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

What I don't understand is that some people act like someone is standing next to them with a gun pointed at their head forcing them to buy a gravel bike. 

"OMG gravel bikes are dumb it's just a new useless made up marketing thing to drive up sales I hate them booooo" 

So what? Do you HAVE to buy one? No. You can buy a million other bikes instead. 

What's the point of arguing about it on the internet? :lol:


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)




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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

sapva said:


> Yes. But then they are really just bikes. The trend has been fairly obvious over the past ten years or so. Bikes can be so light now that the grams don't matter as much. Tires have been getting bigger, rims wider. Most people never use their drop position because the hoods have become larger and more comfortable. And I'd bet that the majority of "gravel bikes" rarely if ever see long uninterrupted trips on gravel roads. Have to wonder if they aren't loosing more sales to people looking for a sensible bike than they gain by upselling everything as some specialty tool.


The way I see it, bikes that are now being labeled "gravel" bikes ARE the "sensible bikes". There is nothing "specialty tool" about them. But marketers needed a new term, because the generic term "road bike" (which IMO should mean general purpose riding on any type of road surface) had been defined as bikes designed for one specialty purpose: racing on pavement.

Honestly, even if I never rode another 2 feet on gravel, I would still choose what is now being marketed as a "gravel bike" as the only road bike I will ever need.

FWIW, pretty much all experienced riders I know DO use their drops. And in the case of gravel bikes, the more upright position actually makes the drop position more usable for more people.


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## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

Velobike said:


> As far as I'm concerned a gravel bike is a bike built for comfortable use on the road with the capabilities to take tyres capable of handling the worst of surfaces that dirt tracks degrade to, ie large volume tyres.
> 
> Think competent SUV rather than gnarly 4wd, and aimed at people who just want to get out there and enjoy the outdoors rather than shred it.


Agreed. Gravel bikes weren't created to sell bikes, they're around because they have a very applicable use for many riders.

I live in Vermont where there 8,000+ miles of unpaved roads. "Unpaved" means dirt roads, unmaintaned 4x4 roads and everything in between. A gravel bike is the perfect bike for riding these roads. Its comfortable, capable and perfect for just exploring.

I would never do it on a skinny tire road bike nor a heavy, knobbied tire mountain bike.

I don't of it as gravel biking, more adventure biking - riding long distances on remote dirt roads on a bike that can handle nearly anything.


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## Greg225 (Jan 25, 2019)

VTSession said:


> Agreed. Gravel bikes weren't created to sell bikes, they're around because they have a very applicable use for many riders.
> 
> I live in Vermont where there 8,000+ miles of unpaved roads. "Unpaved" means dirt roads, unmaintaned 4x4 roads and everything in between. A gravel bike is the perfect bike for riding these roads. Its comfortable, capable and perfect for just exploring.
> 
> ...


That's interesting. I'm doing the exact same thing as you but my gravel bike with 43mm tyres beats me up so much on dirt roads that I want to build a hardtail instead.

I agree tho, i'll never own a skinny tyre bike ever again even for road riding.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

That is why some companies call them “All Road” bikes.
All Road means that it can work well in various terrain, and you can play with the tires to make it more efficient for a given terrain.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Greg225 said:


> ...my gravel bike with 43mm tyres beats me up so much on dirt roads that I want to build a hardtail instead....


I think we'll see all gravel bikes with much bigger tyres soon. Rough roads need tyres with volume.

There's already quite a few at the 2" mark. It's like mtbs all over again, once you have had the bigger tyre, most don't want to go back to say 35mm, but if you do, it's easy done. But you'll never fit a 2" tyre into a 35mm space.

Perhaps it will be gravel bike = dropbar touring bike geometry with mtb size tyres.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2019)

iowamtb said:


> I'm gonna eat my earlier words about drop bars. I built a 2019 Fargo from the frame up in December. The Fargo is a mtb technically so I assume it qualifies for this thread. Running 29x3.0 Maxxis Chronicles and honestly this is the most comfortable bike I have been on. The gravel dissolves under the tires and according to my strava readings I am actually faster on this bike. It is badass...
> View attachment 1235132


What size of the Fargo frame is that? It looks like the perfect do-it-all bike.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

ccand51997 said:


> While I will agree that marketing is driving the current gravel bike push


Demand is what's driving it. It's always been what's driven the manufacturers.

These guys won't build stuff that people won't buy, even if the customer doesn't know they wanted it before it existed. Bike companies are cutting corners wherever possible, the idea that they'll invest money in production and inventory on a whim is downright silly.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Velobike said:


> I think we'll see all gravel bikes with much bigger tyres soon. Rough roads need tyres with volume.
> 
> There's already quite a few at the 2" mark. It's like mtbs all over again, once you have had the bigger tyre, most don't want to go back to say 35mm, but if you do, it's easy done. But you'll never fit a 2" tyre into a 35mm space.


Then you run the risk of having a bike that's basically a bad mountain bike which is a bad road bike by default. Sometimes, a mountain bike is just the best tool for the job.


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## Greg225 (Jan 25, 2019)

richde said:


> Then you run the risk of having a bike that's basically a bad mountain bike which is a bad road bike by default. Sometimes, a mountain bike is just the best tool for the job.


I agree. Some of these adventure/monstercross/whatever bikes are slowly turning into something like a 90's MTB. Something like the All City Gorilla Monsoon looks super fun and i'd like to own one but if I only look at it objectively and with the " right tool for the job" attitude i'm not sure if I see the point.

I thought about building a monstercross instead of a hardtail but if I look at the two objectively I just don't see what the monstercross can do that the hardtail can't.
One thing i'm gonna miss for sure is the drop bar on long rides but then there are things like the Jones bar...

I still think that "regular" gravel bikes with 35-40mm tyres make wonderful road and light offroad bikes for the avereage Joe. Just because the pros and racers are doing it there is no need to run a high geared bike with an aggressive uncomfortable position and skinny high pressure tyres if you just ride for fun.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

richde said:


> Then you run the risk of having a bike that's basically a bad mountain bike which is a bad road bike by default...


If by road bike you mean something you want to ride in a peleton, you're right. They're not a bike for the bum up head down speed obsessed. They're also not the bike for the aerial and gravity mtb heroes.

Otherwise they make brilliant road bikes of the traditional sort. No need to worry about poor road conditions, able to go off piste if you see an interesting track, munch the miles in comfort.



Greg225 said:


> ...Some of these adventure/monstercross/whatever bikes are slowly turning into something like a 90's MTB...


Apart from them being on the short side, a 90s mtb has pretty much the ideal geometry for a SUV type bike and more robust than a road frame.


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## Greg225 (Jan 25, 2019)

Velobike said:


> Apart from them being on the short side, a 90s mtb has pretty much the ideal geometry for a SUV type bike and more robust than a road frame.


The geometry might be ideal, but I still don't see what something like a Gorilla Monsoon can do that an XC MTB can't. For example the Gorilla Monsoon is an offroad focused bike, it has a 73mm bottom bracket shell, it comes with 2.4 tyres, lower gearing than most gravel bikes. But it's still just a rigid bike with drop bars. An XC hardtail with a suspension fork would be superior offroad, no question. And by superior I don't mean faster, I mean more usable, more comfortable. I guess you could go touring with the GM, but then there are bikepacking focused MTBs.

Anyways, this is slightly off topic. The definitions are kind of mixed right now, personally i'm not sure i'd call a drop bar bike with MTB tyres a gravel bike. I'll still maintain that "traditional" gravel bikes are awesome.

But to be honest if I had disposable income I would buy all the quirky drop bar offroad bikes. :lol:


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Breaking the rules.

My gravel bike. Lynskey MT29 frame with a Lauf fork and a 14-speed Rohloff Speedhub internally geared hub.

I just can't ride drop bars or bikes with skinny tires. They feel pretty sketchy on loose dirt.

I have flat 710 mm bars with Cane Creek bar ends. Lucked out with the chain length and did not need an eccentric bottom bracket.

I am doing the Dirty Kanza in June (and the Coast to Coast later in the month here in Michigan) and I'm pretty sure I'll be riding my Salsa El Mariachi Ti with a SRAM Eagle drivetrain, 2.2 inch tires, Jones Bars, and a rigid front fork (Salsa Cutthroat). I rode the same bike in the 2017 Tour Divide and, while I sucked and scratched, it wasn't because of the bike which was very comfortable for all-day riding.

On the other hand the majority of riders in the Dirty Kanza (by looking at pictures) are on drop bar bikes (with a few fat bikes). Obviously they know something I don't but I swear I have given drop bar bikes several decent tries and I just don't like them. 

I have a Willier Jaroon + that is actually kind of nice (29+ drop bar) but I prefer the Jones bars for longer rides.


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## Greg225 (Jan 25, 2019)

Ailuropoda said:


> Obviously they know something I don't but I swear I have given drop bar bikes several decent tries and I just don't like them.


What kind of drop bar bikes have you tried? I'm a big drop bar fan but if something is off I can't stand them.

I can't stand vintage bars or vintage style bars. They just suck, end of story.

I can't stand road racing bikes with an aggressive, stretched out position.

But when you combine slightly more upright geometry with a nice compact drop bar with fat bar tape it's just heaven for me.
Drop bars are definitely more sketchy offroad. One thing I didn't realise at first is when it starts to get rough or techy you *have to* hold the drops. It's a 1000x more stable position than holding the levers.

Edit: Okay I opened my eyes and saw that you have a Wilier Jareen+. That bike looks comfy so I don't know what the issue is.


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## Whason (Sep 15, 2008)

Don't know how to give you reputation but this isn't probably the most accurate thing I've read on why gravel bike. Jw



Nubster said:


> Some folks do just roll mountain bikes on the roads. Geometry is important and tire choice is key...running fat knobby tires will suck and you'll be buying new ones every couple hundred miles...that is if you see much pavement. Gravel roads will eat them up too but not as fast. But if you are ok with the comfort of a mountain bike and can ride one for long distances or for 4-5 hours or more at a shot...go for it. I personally don't like it. I tried riding mountain bike on roads...paved and gravel. It's ok for 15-20 mile rides but nothing compares to a proper road/gravel road bike for that type of riding. That's where the geo comes in to play and the dropbars giving you more hand position options. Of course there's bars out there that will work better with a mountain bike that have hand position options. There's also some monstercross bikes one can consider. Something like the Salsa Cutthroat is pretty popular in the gravel scene from what I read. I've never seen one. Majority of the bikes i see are CX bikes or gravel bikes with a smattering of mountain bikes. The events I've seen it's about 80% gravel/CX bike to 20% mountain bike.


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

I briefly tried a gravel bike:







I liked it, but it was over-matched for the mixed-surface races out here in the Southeast.

So, I went back to the drawing board and came up with this:








Ride whatever you like, whatever gets the job done.


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## westernmtb (Dec 19, 2018)

A gravel bike with lighter frame and fork, road components, drop bar and narrower tires will be significantly faster on gravel roads and far faster (and therefore funner to ride) on paved roads.

A hardtail with a 4-5.5 lbs fork, mtb components, perhaps a 6 lbs mtb frame, 2" wide tires, not to mention flat or riser bars, is far heavier than necessary for gravel, less aerodynamic and overbuilt to a fault.

Drop bars give you more versatility for climbing, descending and flats.

For dual duty, a gravel bike will be far more enjoyable and a lot faster. It doesn't matter if you're racing or not, a faster lighter bike is more enjoyable to ride.

There are some great bikes in this genre now

1. the lauf bike

2. specialized diverge (carbon frame, future shock, dropper post, 19 lbs)

3. specialized Roubaix, 32mm tires, future shock, suspension seat post, 17 lbs.

4. redshift suspension stems and seat posts can transform rigid bikes into very capable gravel bikes: these are very affordable $150 upgrades.

I could see a gravel bike with 35-40mm tires and redshift front and rear suspension working very well for fire roads and perhaps even single track at fort ord for example.

You wouldn't have to drive to the trails, you could just ride your bike there and it could tackle these easy fire roads and smooth single track.

Having said that, I'm not sure why but the gravel bike concept just doesn't have me enthused much less fired up. It's kind of a jack of all trades master of none kind of a deal. Dunno, if I demo'ed a bike, maybe I'd change my mind...

I do know that publications like road bike action are pushing the gravel genre very hard, much to the dismay of traditional roadies. I guess it doesn't take much. Gravel sales are increasing so there's that as well.

I'm not sure why but the bikes that have become popular in recent years are facing the most push-back: gravel, e-bikes. I suppose it's a testimony to the traditionalism of US riders?



richde said:


> Then you run the risk of having a bike that's basically a bad mountain bike which is a bad road bike by default. Sometimes, a mountain bike is just the best tool for the job.


There's going to be some ambivalence about the concept and practice of "graveling." Jack of all trades, master of none.

No one is arguing that a gravel bike with 35/38/40mm tires will be as capable as a 160/150mm dual suspension 27.5+ with 2.8" tires for gnarly, technical trails.

They're more for easier to ride gravel roads as the name implies, easier, smoother less technical trails that you can ride to instead of driving to. You could certainly ride a FS on the road to the trails, but it might not be fun doing so.


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> Ride whatever you like, whatever gets the job done.


My all around beater bike is a basic hard tail with fast rolling 2.25 tires, longish/inverted stem and flat bars chopped close to road width. It is surprisingly fast on the road with tire pressure higher. Only downsides are the lack of a big gear, having to replace the rear tire too frequently and sounding like an fully loaded dump truck on the pavement.


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## westernmtb (Dec 19, 2018)

VTSession said:


> Agreed. Gravel bikes weren't created to sell bikes, they're around because they have a very applicable use for many riders.
> 
> I live in Vermont where there 8,000+ miles of unpaved roads. "Unpaved" means dirt roads, unmaintaned 4x4 roads and everything in between. A gravel bike is the perfect bike for riding these roads. Its comfortable, capable and perfect for just exploring.
> 
> ...


We don't have that many unpaved roads around here. However, the streets and paved trails are in horrendous condition. Roots are pushing up and destroying the paved trails.

The roads have been destroyed by constant rain. The repair work is incredibly amateurish leading to conditions which are just as unsafe. The construction crews are dumping twice as much concrete as necessary leaving large black mounds where potholes used to be.

My converted hardtail with 1.5" street tires handles the torn up roads pretty well, but just barely so.

I've largely given up on using my road bike for road riding, even though I use a suspension stem. 25mm wide tires just aren't cuttin' it. I'm going to have to add a suspension seat post and 28mm tires. Who knows how efficient the suspension seat post will be for pedaling.

I suppose I've just talked myself into adding a gravel bike to my collection. Sigh. See what this forum does?


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

VTSession said:


> Agreed. Gravel bikes weren't created to sell bikes, they're around because they have a very applicable use for many riders.


Gravel bikes have been around for a very long time. But the name "gravel bike" was created to sell those pre existing sensible bikes as some kind of specialty tool.


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

westernmtb said:


> I'm going to have to add a suspension seat post and 28mm tires. Who knows how efficient the suspension seat post will be for pedaling.


Suspension seat posts have zero impact on pedaling efficiency. Unlike front or rear bike suspension, the downward force on the pedals is opposite of the post movement. They don't smooth out the little bumps like coil springs, but are great for protecting against the more severe shocks you would otherwise absorb fully with your spine when seated, like riding over roots and such.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

westernmtb said:


> A gravel bike with lighter frame and fork, road components, drop bar and narrower tires will be significantly faster on gravel roads and far faster (and therefore funner to ride) on paved roads.


I agree that a gravel bike would generally be significantly faster than a mtb on the road (depending on how you define significant) but I don't know about dirt roads and gravel. On a lot of those roads around here I think I'd be as fast or faster on my hardtail.



sapva said:


> Gravel bikes have been around for a very long time. But the name "gravel bike" was created to sell those pre existing sensible bikes as some kind of specialty tool.


I didn't see the crop of cool bikes that are available now, mostly cyclocross and touring bikes which worked ok but had comprises. No matter what you they call them I'm happy for the choices that are now available.


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## westernmtb (Dec 19, 2018)

I don't mean to be argumentative but on a relatively smooth gravel road, a gravel bike with narrower tires, lower, more aero drop bars and overall lighter bike will definitely be faster than a heavier mtb with 2"+ tires, 780 mm wide riser bars, and pushing significantly more weight. You'll generally be pushing a much bigger gear as well on the gravel bike also.

A skilled rider can handle technical single track pretty well on a gravel bike as well:


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

westernmtb said:


> I don't mean to be argumentative but on a relatively smooth gravel road, a gravel bike with narrower tires, lower, more aero drop bars and overall lighter bike will definitely be faster than a heavier mtb with 2"+ tires, 780 mm wide riser bars, and pushing significantly more weight. You'll generally be pushing a much bigger gear as well on the gravel bike also.
> 
> A skilled rider can handle technical single track pretty well on a gravel bike as well:


Yes, I've ridden that sort of stuff on a road bike. But the "gravel" thing kind of falls apart with this, which is a CX, supposedly not gravel, but looks more like a hard tail to me, even has a dropper post...






Same bikes, what ever you choose to call it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

westernmtb said:


> I don't mean to be argumentative.....


Same here, I just disagree. I ride both road and mountain a lot and I know the speed differences between them. Again, it depends on what you consider significant and also it depends on the terrain. Gravel roads here go up and down and on those fast stutter-bumpy downhill runs there's no way my alternate self on a gravel bike could drop me on my hardtail no matter how big of gears he had.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

btw I totally agree that on a loop with half pavement and half gravel/dirt roads a gravel bike would be a fair amount faster, assuming the dirt roads weren't too rough that is.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Greg225 said:


> What kind of drop bar bikes have you tried? I'm a big drop bar fan but if something is off I can't stand them.
> 
> I can't stand vintage bars or vintage style bars. They just suck, end of story.
> 
> ...


I think I'd like to get a Cutthroat or similar one day. I think it's the narrow tires more than the drop bars. I don't mind riding on the hoods but I feel very uncomfortable and unstable in the drops.

I've actually increased my stem length on my El Mariachi to push the Jones bars out a little and get me more in the road-riding position.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

westernmtb said:


> We don't have that many unpaved roads around here. However, the streets and paved trails are in horrendous condition. Roots are pushing up and destroying the paved trails.
> 
> The roads have been destroyed by constant rain. The repair work is incredibly amateurish leading to conditions which are just as unsafe. The construction crews are dumping twice as much concrete as necessary leaving large black mounds where potholes used to be.
> 
> ...


My wife is a roadie. She has the same problem with the roads up here in Michigan, some of which are in horrendous shape and really beat the hell out of her and her bike. She has a sub-16 pound Argon 18.

Since I ride a mountain bike on the roads (a Lynskey MT 29) these things don't bother me and I can transition to gravel, dirt, and crappy dirt without a pause...on the other hand I can't even begin to keep up with her paved roads.

I have flat bars and bar ends on the Lynskey which gets me lower and more aero but it's still a mountain bike. I had a SRAM XX1 11-speed drivetrain on it (34 tooth front sprocket) but converted it to a Rohloff Speedhub.

The Rohloff, by the way, has almost no drag in the upper seven gears where I spend most of my time in Michigan. It's heavy but rugged. Probably overkill for the terrain.

I "spin out" at about 20 MPH in the top gear range which is fast enough for me as I generally cruise along at 13-14 MPH.

I am no speed demon.


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## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

As with the theme- not trying to argue, just enjoying the discussion!



sapva said:


> Suspension seat posts have zero impact on pedaling efficiency. Unlike front or rear bike suspension, the downward force on the pedals is opposite of the post movement. They don't smooth out the little bumps like coil springs, but are great for protecting against the more severe shocks you would otherwise absorb fully with your spine when seated, like riding over roots and such.


My knee injury used to dominate my bike set up decisions. A forward saddle was pain. Pedal kickback was pain. A saddle height that changed while i pedaled was immense pain. URTs were a no-go, thudbusters were a no-go, and a telescoping suspension post was the worst thing imaginable. I've consciously PT'ed/ built my knee back up and it's cool, but cycling does a good job of training your legs to make power through a very specific motion. I suspect that most cyclists take a hit for pedaling with a suspension post.



westernmtb said:


> We don't have that many unpaved roads around here. However, the streets and paved trails are in horrendous condition. Roots are pushing up and destroying the paved trails.
> 
> The roads have been destroyed by constant rain. The repair work is incredibly amateurish leading to conditions which are just as unsafe. The construction crews are dumping twice as much concrete as necessary leaving large black mounds where potholes used to be.
> 
> ...


My own 'gravel bike' is just a road bike with geometry/tires/gearing adapted to the roads i enjoy riding the most (climb dirt, descend FAST). I think my performance is affected more by my choice to try barcon shifters than anything else. Descending shitty roads in the drops at full tilt is so fun i don't give a crap.

I have a lightweight rigid mtb with slick 2.0s. It's my commuter and it's never occurred to me to take it out on a mixed terrain road ride. It doesn't corner right and it feels too upright and rear-heavy on the flats. I'm sure it'd be fine in practice.



Ailuropoda said:


> My gravel bike. Lynskey MT29 frame with a Lauf fork and a 14-speed Rohloff Speedhub internally geared hub.
> 
> I just can't ride drop bars or bikes with skinny tires. They feel pretty sketchy on loose dirt.
> 
> ...


Narrow flat bars and an undamped suspension fork. Yuck!

I've visited michigan and kansas; i understand your choices. It's kinda what makes this genre fun- the tools haven't been put in stupid little boxes yet.

Good luck with the kanza!


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## Greg225 (Jan 25, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> btw I totally agree that on a loop with half pavement and half gravel/dirt roads a gravel bike would be a fair amount faster, *assuming the dirt roads weren't too rough that is.*


This. I don't need to go to a downhill trail, even if a dirt road is just a bit rough, my gravel bike beats the crap out of me. I can ride the techy and rough stuff, and it can be fun for about 5 minutes, but after a while it turns into torture. I can't maintain any kind of decent speed, but I wouldn't really care about that, but when I bottom out the front tire constantly, and I get neck and shoulder pain because of the constant judder, it's not fun.

That's why I want a hardtail and that's the biggest difference between the two bikes for me.

When I compare a gravel bike and a hardtail, the hardtail is probably slower on smooth surfaces, but I can still ride it comfortably, and I can still enjoy riding it. 
And while the gravel bike is faster on smoother terrain, on rougher terrain it's not just slower, less fun, more uncomfortable, it can be borderline unrideable.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

Crash_FLMB said:


> I gravelled my old 2007 Jabberwocky. I ran some Origin8 Batwing bars for a year and could never really get comfy on it. Way too much sweep for me. I started researching drops bars and someone on MTBR pointed me to some Soma drops that have big flair but are MTB size so I could stick with my MTB shifter. It works well and I find myself riding this more than the roadie or SS lately which is kind of shocking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I sold my 2007 Jabber frame 5 years ago and have regretted it ever since.


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

skankingbiker said:


> I sold my 2007 Jabber frame 5 years ago and have regretted it ever since.


We all have that 'one that got away' bike. I was stupid for selling a '92 bright orange Gary Fisher Paragon, all original. 

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


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## sapva (Feb 20, 2017)

scottzg said:


> My knee injury used to dominate my bike set up decisions. A forward saddle was pain. Pedal kickback was pain. A saddle height that changed while i pedaled was immense pain. URTs were a no-go, thudbusters were a no-go, and a telescoping suspension post was the worst thing imaginable. I've consciously PT'ed/ built my knee back up and it's cool, but cycling does a good job of training your legs to make power through a very specific motion. I suspect that most cyclists take a hit for pedaling with a suspension post.


Guess I've been lucky with the seat post choices. Currently using a KS Exaform suspension dropper, and it only moves with a hard bump. Used to use one with a rubber spacer inside that came in a number of stiffness variations to match your weight so there was zero sag. Wasn't the plushest ride, but way more pleasant than a fixed post.


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## turbogrover (Dec 4, 2005)

I built up this one using an old ebay 26er carbon mtb frame and fork. The geometry was close to what i was looking for, and I haven't ridden the frame in 5 years, so I thought I'd try it. I'm glad I did it because I really like it! 
I scored some good deals from the Performance Bike close outs, including a set of Stans Arch mk3 27.5 wheels, bars, stem, shifter/brake levers, and crankset.
It weighs just 18.5 lbs with pedals, rolls fast, and handles great off road. The frame was too short in the top tube for me when I used it as an mtb, so the conversion to drop bars wasn't bad. I'm using a 90mm -6° stem, and shallow drop road bars. The 400 gm Maxxis 27.5x1.5 Rambler tires are superlight and tubeless. The drivetrain is a combo of XTR 10 spd with a Dura Ace front derailleur, and FSA crankset. 46/34 in front and 11-36 out back.
I did a 24 mile test ride on mixed gravel and chipseal roads in Michigan and I couldn't be happier with the tire choice.
The only change I may make is to lower the stem down a bit more. For now its comfortable with all the winter gear I'm wearing.


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## tangerineowl (Nov 18, 2013)

turbogrover said:


> I built up this one using an old ebay 26er carbon mtb frame and fork. The geometry was close to what i was looking for, and I haven't ridden the frame in 5 years, so I thought I'd try it. I'm glad I did it because I really like it!
> I scored some good deals from the Performance Bike close outs, including a set of Stans Arch mk3 27.5 wheels, bars, stem, shifter/brake levers, and crankset.
> It weighs just 18.5 lbs with pedals, rolls fast, and handles great off road. The frame was too short in the top tube for me when I used it as an mtb, so the conversion to drop bars wasn't bad. I'm using a 90mm -6° stem, and shallow drop road bars. The 400 gm Maxxis 27.5x1.5 Rambler tires are superlight and tubeless. The drivetrain is a combo of XTR 10 spd with a Dura Ace front derailleur, and FSA crankset. 46/34 in front and 11-36 out back.
> I did a 24 mile test ride on mixed gravel and chipseal roads in Michigan and I couldn't be happier with the tire choice.
> The only change I may make is to lower the stem down a bit more. For now its comfortable with all the winter gear I'm wearing.


Ever think of rolling your bars down and moving up the position of your shifters? May feel better in the drops.


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## turbogrover (Dec 4, 2005)

tangerineowl said:


> Ever think of rolling your bars down and moving up the position of your shifters? May feel better in the drops.


I actually did roll my bars down without moving the shifters after the pics were taken, and it's better. I'm still fine tuning the position, but the reach is pretty good at least. I typically run my stem lower in the summer too. Thanks for the input!


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

"Gravel" is definitely a legitimate type of bike. I don't know what kind of high-speed, low-drag riders a lot of you are but I do not enjoy riding a road bike on trails and my roadie friends (and my wife) are distinctly uncomfortable and distressed on anything but the smoothest of non-paved roads. 

You can take any bike anywhere but it's not optimal. 

I don't understand the angst people have over classifications of bicycles. They are just guidelines, after all, and there is some over-lap in capabilities. 

I also am not clear why people call hardtails uncomfortable on long rides. The only problems I can see is that they are slower, watt for watt, than dedicated gravel bikes because of weight and higher rolling resistance.


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## HollyBoni (Dec 27, 2016)

Ailuropoda said:


> I also am not clear why people call hardtails uncomfortable on long rides.


Because of the no drop bar thing. I envy those who can ride around the world on straight bars, but sadly i'm not one of them. A drop bar simply feels much more natural, comfortable, and I have a bunch of positions to choose from and move around.

I haven't tried Jones bars yet, i'm sure they're a step up from just regular straight bars.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Ailuropoda said:


> I don't understand the angst people have over classifications of bicycles. They are just guidelines, after all, and there is some over-lap in capabilities.


This!!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Ailuropoda said:


> I also am not clear why people call hardtails uncomfortable on long rides. The only problems I can see is that they are slower, watt for watt, than dedicated gravel bikes because of weight and higher rolling resistance.


I don't think they're much, if any less comfortable but they are slower so if you are traveling x amount of miles a 3 hour ride on a road bike can easily turn into a 4+ one on a mtb, and that last hour can be more uncomfortable for sure.

Drops on the road are more comfy for me but that's personal preference.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

A bit of fun on my gravelled hardtail today.
All the local tracks are closed due to fires and fire risk.
Having a big one 30km away that's burned 2100ha so far and 2000 people evacuated.
A smaller one 500m from home yesterday that burnt about 10ha of hillside in the city.

2011 26" Stumpy with a 27.5 carbon fork and 29er wheels.


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

NordieBoy said:


> A bit of fun on my gravelled hardtail today.
> All the local tracks are closed due to fires and fire risk.
> Having a big one 30km away that's burned 2100ha so far and 2000 people evacuated.
> A smaller one 500m from home yesterday that burnt about 10ha of hillside in the city.
> ...


Wow, that's New Zealand? Looks so much like some islands here in southern California. Cool bike and shot!

FWIW, I 'gravel' my XC FS bike with 29x2.0 tires. Race king rear is pretty dang fast, especially after a couple thousand miles.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

tfinator said:


> FWIW, I 'gravel' my XC FS bike with 29x2.0 tires. Race king rear is pretty dang fast, especially after a couple thousand miles.


Specialized Sawtooth 42mm is quite fast too.


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## GammaDriver (Nov 27, 2005)

Count me in to the converted hard-tail gravel-bike build category. About three weeks ago I found, and bought, the Continental Double Fighter III tire for the rear of an old CAAD-frame bike I had, and have been kicking it on gravel the last few weeks. First ride on that rear tire was an 85-mile gravel ride that didn't go so well, but only because I was fighting a fever, and kept having alternating sweats/chills throughout an 81-degree ride. 

Still have stuff to do to it to make it modern and lighter, but it's sure as **** cheaper than buying an entire bike for gravel. Were I 25, or even 35, and looking forward to racing and doing well, I might consider an actual gravel bike, but I'm just a 'rider' now.

Do wish the Double Fighter III had a kevlar-bead option, but had to go for a steel bead (and, yet, it's still fast enough compared to an actual MTB tire).

This bike is old enough to have a triple chainring set-up, so the large ring is there when I need to, or can, get a move on.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Damn.
Just built a set of 650b wheels for the 2011 Stumpy 26er as the Specialized Sawtooths were a fraction too close to the seat stays and the rear hub was getting a bit too grumbly.
The only tyres I could get locally that were in any sense gravelish for 650b were some old stock FastTrack 2.0's.
The bugger fits so well it's got me wondering if the bike is 650b and not 26".
BB height is 300mm and they look like they belong!
50mm wide on i25 rims.
The pic with suspension is how it looked as a 26er when it was my race steed.


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## turbogrover (Dec 4, 2005)

NordieBoy said:


> Damn.
> Just built a set of 650b wheels for the 2011 Stumpy 26er as the Specialized Sawtooths were a fraction too close to the seat stays and the rear hub was getting a bit too grumbly.
> The only tyres I could get locally that were in any sense gravelish for 650b were some old stock FastTrack 2.0's.
> The bugger fits so well it's got me wondering if the bike is 650b and not 26".
> BB height is 300mm and they look like they belong!


Looks good! The fork lowers your bb, and makes the steering a little quicker, so it feels more like a gravel bike would. I'm enjoying my hardtail conversion so much I don't feel the need to get another bike now.
The only thing I found that I needed was more gearing. In my area you can get some good rolling speed, and I went up to a 46/11 big gear, and have plenty of low-end with a 34/34 low gear. The dirt roads in southern Michigan are mixed in with paved roads, so it works perfectly for this.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

turbogrover said:


> Looks good! The fork lowers your bb, and makes the steering a little quicker, so it feels more like a gravel bike would. I'm enjoying my hardtail conversion so much I don't feel the need to get another bike now.
> The only thing I found that I needed was more gearing. In my area you can get some good rolling speed, and I went up to a 46/11 big gear, and have plenty of low-end with a 34/34 low gear. The dirt roads in southern Michigan are mixed in with paved roads, so it works perfectly for this.


It's actually a 650b fork on the 26" frame 

With the 29 wheels and 42mm tyres, the BB height was 300mm.
Now with the 650b wheels and 50mm tyres, it's 300mm.
The extra tyre width makes a difference with the handling.

Now to find some more road biased 650b tyres in 47-50mm and <600g each.


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> Damn.
> Just built a set of 650b wheels for the 2011 Stumpy 26er as the Specialized Sawtooths were a fraction too close to the seat stays and the rear hub was getting a bit too grumbly.
> The only tyres I could get locally that were in any sense gravelish for 650b were some old stock FastTrack 2.0's.
> The bugger fits so well it's got me wondering if the bike is 650b and not 26".
> ...


Looks much better as a gravel-er. 

Are those bars the Soma Gators? That's what I put on my converted Jabber and I really dig them.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Crash_FLMB said:


> Looks much better as a gravel-er.
> 
> Are those bars the Soma Gators? That's what I put on my converted Jabber and I really dig them.
> 
> Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


On-One Midge bars. Want to try others, but my cables are cut a little short


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

650b Sawtooth's are on the way.
Getting ready for it's first race in 2.5 weeks.
3 stage (18km, 28km and 48km) graveller


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

I 'graveled' my HT and I think it's in this thread somewhere. I dig it but the 3lb. Surly fork is a boat anchor I'd like to replace. I definitely don't want to spend $400 on the Niner fork so I'm curious what forks others are running? This is strictly light gravel duty so it doesn't need to be overly burly.


Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


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## iowamtb (May 17, 2014)

NAU83 said:


> What size of the Fargo frame is that? It looks like the perfect do-it-all bike.


Sorry it took so long. I didn't see this until now. It is a large. I sold my 29x3.0 tires recently and bought some Maxxis Icons in 2.6. The 3.0 rode nice but mud clearance was too minimal and it was removing paint from the inside of my chain stays. The 2.6 still ride nice. I can't help but laugh at some of the posts on his thread but I realize the replies are based off of geographical knowledge due to where they live. If you showed up here in southern iowa to ride gravel with me on a bike with 28 tires you would "probably" soon regret the choice. The gravel is big and chunky and even though I started grinding on a Vassago Fist with 32s several years ago, my back and hands thank me so much for moving up to some 2+ mtb tire sizes. They make this gravel feel like a dirt road with no rock.


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

Crash_FLMB said:


> I 'graveled' my HT and I think it's in this thread somewhere. I dig it but the 3lb. Surly fork is a boat anchor I'd like to replace. I definitely don't want to spend $400 on the Niner fork so I'm curious what forks others are running? This is strictly light gravel duty so it doesn't need to be overly burly.
> 
> Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


Just purchased a Toseek chineese carbon fork for 60.00 to replace my Surly straight leg fork..yea like 3.5 lbs...to arrive soon.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

1niceride said:


> Just purchased a Toseek chineese carbon fork for 60.00 to replace my Surly straight leg fork..yea like 3.5 lbs...to arrive soon.


What's the a to c measurement on that one?

N.M. found it, looks like it's 475 mm.


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## Crash_FLMB (Jan 21, 2004)

1niceride said:


> Just purchased a Toseek chineese carbon fork for 60.00 to replace my Surly straight leg fork..yea like 3.5 lbs...to arrive soon.


I saw those and was curious how they were. We pretty much ride crushed gravel canals around these parts so again, I don't need anything super burly. I'd like to know how it looks and feels when you get it.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I'm using a 650b straight steerer Tooseek fork on my gravel bike.
Needed a bit of facing on the brake mounts, but has stood up to some trails I wouldn't like to ride again rigid.
The 650b one is 440mm a-c


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

I almost got sloppy and ordered some other fork with a short a-c which I didn't want..

I did see that the brake mounts will need some love.

I will give report when i get the fork. I'm runnin a drake oem spring/steel steerer 5lbs fork at the moment. I have a Surly I ran for awhile but is like 3.5lbs and rides hard.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

1niceride said:


> I almost got sloppy and ordered some other fork with a short a-c which I didn't want..
> 
> I did see that the brake mounts will need some love.
> 
> I will give report when i get the fork. I'm runnin a drake oem spring/steel steerer 5lbs fork at the moment..


The next one I get for this bike will likely be a 26" version.
The head angle is 70° at the moment, so a little sharper would be good.


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## idinomac (Apr 5, 2009)

NordieBoy said:


> Very quick rolling when up to speed, good balance and a surprising amount of grip. Power was way down on what I'd normally do on these track's, but I'm usually on a rigid single speed, so gears are just weird.


I have the same fork on my Salsa Mamasita, I turned that bike into my gravel bike, it has mustache bars upside down, I'm thinking about buying a Chinese carbon frame that is more gravel road go, but I have only found that the Carbonda CFR696 takes the widest tires in the 700c format I haven't any interest in the 650b tires. The CFR696 frame is probably the closest to a do more in one bike in the road/gravel road and touring bike realm.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

idinomac said:


> I have the same fork on my Salsa Mamasita, I turned that bike into my gravel bike, it has mustache bars upside down, I'm thinking about buying a Chinese carbon frame that is more gravel road go, but I have only found that the Carbonda CFR696 takes the widest tires in the 700c format I haven't any interest in the 650b tires. The CFR696 frame is probably the closest to a do more in one bike in the road/gravel road and touring bike realm.


I've gone to 650b on that bike because the frame is really maxed out at 700x38. The wiskers on the 42's took the paint off the seat stays.
Handling wise, no real change from 29 to 27.5
I'd like to try a set of 26" rigid forks one day and see what they do to the handling.


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## sbvx67 (Mar 9, 2014)

*Carver*

Here's my gravel rig.


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## Zest28 (Dec 29, 2018)

The way things are going, my mountainbikes are gravel bikes from the future as we got full suspension gravel bikes now.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Zest28 said:


> The way things are going, my mountainbikes are gravel bikes from the future as we got full suspension gravel bikes now.


And your mountain bike is a road bike from the past...

1996 Bianchi








1913 Bianchi full suspension...


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

I am sure many of have seen the Niner MCR, which is about to come out in November. It is pretty much full suspension mtb. I think also remember reading Fox made a gravel-specific version of their 32 shock.


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## kendunn (Sep 9, 2013)

Follow a guy on a gravel bike while you're on a hardtail. I've done it, he ran off and left me and was putting out much less effort, and I had tires that should have worked well/been fast on gravel. Now, if the downhills get a little rutted out or whatever, its certainly a different story. Funny thing, I went with some guys that were on FS and a hardtail while I was on a fully rigid mtn bike with gravel tires and I didn't seem to have that much of an advantage, but to be honest, they were both world class athletes and a lot younger than me.


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## ciki62 (Sep 21, 2018)

kendunn said:


> Follow a guy on a gravel bike while you're on a hardtail. I've done it, he ran off and left me and was putting out much less effort, and I had tires that should have worked well/been fast on gravel. Now, if the downhills get a little rutted out or whatever, its certainly a different story. Funny thing, I went with some guys that were on FS and a hardtail while I was on a fully rigid mtn bike with gravel tires and I didn't seem to have that much of an advantage, but to be honest, they were both world class athletes and a lot younger than me.


Exactly same opinion. My daughter on gravel Merida silex and I on Trek Fex with XC tires she disappeared with no effort. My personal records are much higher on gravel bike on all kinds of gravel fire roads in the woods and of course on asphalt. Of course different story going downhill. Gravel is so much fun.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

I think this also depends if the bike is steel or not, cause I can assure you it be easier for me on a alloy or carbon gravel bike than my current steel model .


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

At the last gravel stage race we ran, there were lots of MTB's.
Quite a few running minimal race tyres and some running DHF/DHR tyres.

It's demoralising having to try and out-sprint an MTB with DH tyres at the end of a 42km hilly stage


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## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Another hardtail gravel option.


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