# Where to purchase rubber water bars?



## schaarschmidt (Aug 20, 2007)

One of the trails we maintain has a steep section that is a maintenance nightmare. The grade is about 30%. We cannot re-route it, so we are stuck preforming a lot rehab maintenance.

With the sustained grade, dips and reversals are not an option. We have been building small (just a couple of inches high) earthen waterbars. However, the earthen waterbars don't last long as riders skid over them and wear them away.

One solution I have seen in use and would like to try is adding some rubber water bars, usually constructed of conveyor belt material. The problem is I don't know where to purchase these.

If you know where one can purchase rubber water bars or the sections of conveyor belts (used would be great) then please post it here or send me a PM.

Thanks.


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## gomer hardtale (Jul 2, 2008)

Check a fitness store. Old Treadmill belts would probably work


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## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

Is it a canidate for rock armoring. It'll look more natural, won't become as slick, and will last longer.

IMBA's got some good info on their site on how to do rock armoring.

JmZ


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## schaarschmidt (Aug 20, 2007)

JmZ said:


> Is it a candidate for rock armoring. It'll look more natural, won't become as slick, and will last longer.


Thanks for the suggestion, but this is not a candidate for armoring.

We have already considered it and these are our problems: (1) Not enough rock in the immediate area, (2) no place to harvest rock from to deliver to the trail head, (3) purchasing and hauling in rock would be costs prohibitive, and (4) it would be impossible to move that much rock from the trail head to the desired location.


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## smilycook (Jan 13, 2004)

They tried rubber water bars on the forests here in Idaho a while ago and they did not last very long and people would ride around them and just create a new place for water to flow. 

I would try some logs instead, since these will last more than a year or two.

Chris


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## sick4surf (Feb 4, 2004)

We used them 15 years ago and they only lasted a few years. Will never use them again.

There are better alternatives. Send a picture of the area and we'll recommend a fix...need more info.

How far from truck access to bring in materials for armoring? Motorized wheel barrows or ATVs with trailers can bring in material too.

Appalachian Armoring:
http://www.dupontforest.com/trailproject.asp


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## schaarschmidt (Aug 20, 2007)

sick4surf said:


> Send a picture of the area and we'll recommend a fix...need more info.












I wish I had a picture looking up the trail, but this is the only picture that I have at the present time. Because of the angle (shooting down the trail instead of level), and because no one is in the picture, you loose perspective on steepness of this section. The 30% grade is probably a conservative estimate, it is probably closer to 40%. The good part is we don't have to worry about users going around any water bars as the trail as the 2+ foot bench would prevent them from riding up and around and if they tried to ride on the down slop side they would go off the mountain. You may have noticed it is so steep that all of the older trees are curving back up the mountain in this area.

We really hated building this section of trail as we know it was going to be a maintenance nightmare, but we needed to get from point A to point B and there was really no alternative.

This issue allows one to think about preservatives. Some posted about their frustration with the rubber-style water bars relatively short life of two years. This is weird as I was thinking, "Wow, we will get two years out of them, that will save huge amounts of trail work."

Thanks. I look forward to further suggestions.


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## sick4surf (Feb 4, 2004)

I see what you mean. At least it's not a gully. Did you try digging a grade reversal every 30-50 feet? You can forget about the humps of a water bar or rolling grade dip, just dig down a gradual but longish grade reversal and slope it outward to drain off water. Make it gentle so folks can roll it and pedal easy.

The problem with the rubber water bar or log is when people pedal up the hill they will have to lunge up and over the obstacle and the tires will grind away the downhill side of the bar making the step get progressively higher.

You can "corduroy" the steepest sections with locust logs but dig them in deep to secure the ends.

Maybe someone else has an idea.

Edit* We have also used a roll of that plastic construction fence netting and attached it with long staples "nails". It comes in green and lasts a few years and gives amazing traction. The holes in the squares are about 1" x 2" and is available in 3 foot wide rolls at Home Depot.


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## cppcboy (Jun 3, 2004)

My experience with acquiring the material is by asking for used belt material from a quarry. It;s long lasting if installed correctly. You can also install a wooden trough as a drain crossing the trail. You need to clean them out every year but it's fast and easy.


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## bikerjay (Sep 16, 2007)

I am also not a fan of rubber bars. They are not very effective and tend to be unsightly. 
CCPC boys suggestion of troughs is probably a good one. The time i have ridden over them, they looked to be simple and effective, even when they were on steep heavily used urban proximate trail systems. 
They can work real well with either with pressure treated lumber or logs found on site. When placed right, done well and periodically cleaned they work like a charm. They only need to be about 4-6" wide and only as deep. Use three logs or boards so they have a bottom, other wise big water flow will undermine them. I wish I had a photo of some.


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

sick4surf said:


> I see what you mean. At least it's not a gully. Did you try digging a grade reversal every 30-50 feet? You can forget about the humps of a water bar or rolling grade dip, just dig down a gradual but longish grade reversal and slope it outward to drain off water. Make it gentle so folks can roll it and pedal easy.


My opinion is this would be the best solution.

My thought is if you have a trouble area, doing it correctly where you will never have to return is the most sensible option. Even with installing water bars you're still handing off a problem to riders every couple of years or so.

Riders tend to not like Turfstone pavers either, but for places that still would want to rut, i would look to armor with them.

But if you perform the grade reversals correctly, and employ as many sustainable tricks in your finish work, you could possibly fix the problem with just dirt and sweat.


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## seenvic (Sep 9, 2003)

I'd agree w/ Vitti and Skookum. 

Looks like you have some sideslope and and distinct low side / high side. 

Get a DW SK500 or 650 and just dip the hell out of it and make it drain off the low side. 

Rubber water bars are a joke.


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## LititzDude (Apr 3, 2004)

http://www.sambabiker.com/photo-gallery/19-camp_mack_workday?start=20

Check out the pictures of what we did. Very steep, trenched trail. Same thing, could not move this section.

We created 5 rolling grade dips and increased the tread out slope. The "bump" is about 8 inches higher then the bottom of the dip. We have them that the most uphill section of each dip is easily rolled, and between the dips is totally cleared of rocks to keep it as easy as can. almost 2 years, and working very well.


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## Megashnauzer (Nov 2, 2005)

i'm guessing few people ride up this trail. i've seen truck tire treads used as water bars but cutting a bunch of tires would be a pita. i rode a trail that was super steep had pretty good sized water bars on it. they were done so that even going slow you could still get a little air off them. it was fun to just let off the brakes get some air and then hit the breaks again before repeating. i couldn't go fast enough to do any trail damage but fast enough to have fun.


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

I agree with not using water bars.

However, to answer your question, google conveyor belt, look in your yellow pages under rubber and plastics or look HERE.

Edit.. the link does not go directly to the belting. Scroll down to "Material Handling" and then to "Conveyor Belts".


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Rubber water bars are/were a failure. And White Ranch is testament to this.


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## willie b (Jun 25, 2006)

*Ding Ding Ding!*



sick4surf said:


> I see what you mean. At least it's not a gully. Did you try digging a grade reversal every 30-50 feet? You can forget about the humps of a water bar or rolling grade dip, just dig down a gradual but longish grade reversal and slope it outward to drain off water. Make it gentle so folks can roll it and pedal easy.
> 
> The problem with the rubber water bar or log is when people pedal up the hill they will have to lunge up and over the obstacle and the tires will grind away the downhill side of the bar making the step get progressively higher.
> 
> ...


We have a winner. Grade Reversals are the least intrusive and most easy to implement. Rubber water bars are not long term solutions. They channel the water instead of sheeting it.


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## Oppy (Nov 9, 2006)

Don't forget the old dirt jumpers trick Carpet! Depends on the aesthetic and environmental constraints but it protect the surface. You can always call it re-cycled geo-fabric if you need to.


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## ATBScott (Jun 4, 2006)

I agree with the grade reversal if the situation allows it - your picture looks like it should be a great location for this method. Anyone looking for "rubber water bars" should consider talking to conveyor or warehouse/material handling companies. Every city has a few that install and maintain this equipment in warehouses, etc... If you ask for pieces of "unserviceable" material for your trail maintenance group, I am sure they would be happy to give you some - and they may even cut it for you. It does hold up fairly well as long as it isn't in intense sunlight - but it is pretty fugly compared to rocks, etc... Grade reversals are so much niver for riding though!


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

We installed rubber water bars on a steep (15%+ grade) fall line section of the Blue River trail near Breckenridge 15 years ago and they are still there and although not very pleasing to the eye, they function well. People don't go around them because there isn't anyplace for them to do so. Once they find that they can just over them they don't even try. We got ours from I believe something like Granger Supply. Sandwich then between two treated 2X6s, bury them to the top of the lumber, anchor with re bar pins and call it good. For this particular trail, it was an inexpensive and durable fix.


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## atlasbelting (Apr 26, 2012)

*rubber belting*

We carry miles of it cheap.
Atlas Belting Muskego WI.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Rubber water bars suck up and down. They channel water and debris and are no fun to ride. 

In your pic a water bar appears to be half way between the little trunk on the right and the big tree on the left. There is a lot of scope to bench the trail deeper into the upslope. 

This may be hard to follow, but can you remove the water bar and continue that lower contour well into the upslope bank this side of it, creating a more pronounced left right left flip/flop turn? The first left starts before the little trunk, the right is now dug well back into the bank and the second left apexes at the big tree? Think like a cut-back, re-entry, bottom-end combo in surfing where the bottom-end is a hump by the big tree. 

Normally turning into or around a tree is bad, but here it looks like you could do it by using the back edge of the new reverse grade to "catch" the tires coming off the upslope turn. There would be no need to outslope the trail there now as it becomes a hump, above a new reverse grade. It could be ridden on sound trail well toward the outslope, right edge.

The current outslope on the far side of the little trunk combines with the removed water bar area as one large reverse grade that only gets ridden on the left/upslope side. 

Your advantage is the slope down to the creek on the right and the deep bank to the left. If you can scrounge enough stone, armour or french drain the upslope bank to direct drainage into the big, new, juicy and floaty reverse grade.

Past the big tree is impossible to guess on this pic, but it looks like one of those curved trunks is leaning over the trail. If you could re-route on the high side of that tree you would have another reverse grade made for you before it and the right turn across the drainage at the end would be wider in radius and less intimidating at pace (ie no braking bumps). 

Maybe what I am saying is think of the fast line for the trail, rather than the drainage.


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## dl1030 (Sep 3, 2009)

i see two options, either some massive rolling dips/knicks (read massive again, lots of dirt moving, might not be a great option)









or dig in some trenches (Not the best example, but the only one i could find).


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Yes to massive rolling dips.


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## mtbikernc69 (Mar 23, 2004)

Rubber water bars = FAIL
We tried that back in the mid to late 90's, about when the OP's link was published. Needless to say they don't work, look like crap and just plain suck. RGD or a knick. Better get digging!


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## robbiexor (Aug 22, 2011)

Since this post is 3 years old... I wonder what the OP ended up doing?


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## The Prodigal Son (Apr 22, 2008)

Old post but relevant. Rubber water bars are old school. The Forest Service liked them because horses could walk over them. They never gave much thought to mountain bikers. Half the time the FS used thin rubber and half the time they inadvertantly used much thicker rubber, never seeing potential problems. The thin rubber had a short life and quickly bent over and stayed bent over. The thick rubber stored energy as riders rolled over it, releasing that energy as the rear tire rolled off the rubber, lifting the rear of the bike off the trail. Since these devices were often used on bends in the trail, the rear of the bikes were sent off the downhill side of the trail. At the least, riders moving downhill quickly, were losing control momentarily, and having to make advanced moves to maintain control. Then there is the sideways slide that results when the rubber is wet. Your back wheel moves sideways so fast, you are lying on your side wondering what just happened. 

Build a series of deep rolling dips, or grade reversals. They can last for over five years, depending on depth and how much rain you get that fills them in with sediment. With grades like yours, and proper outsloping, you could build structures that are self-flushing, and will last for decades with minimal maintenance.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

dl1030 said:


> i see two options, either some massive rolling dips/knicks (read massive again, lots of dirt moving, might not be a great option)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Neither of those are really viable on a 30-40% slope.

The dips require having the grade be steeper in sections, which accelerates both the water and the riders.

The gutter will fill quickly, if it catches the water in the first place. They still need a grade reversal to be close to effective.

I would be looking at reroutes.


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## prooperator (Jan 31, 2007)

*I can answer that...*

they were installed on the 40% slope and they are working very well. I thought it was agreat idea then and now it is confirmed. Those rubber waterbars have been in place for close to 3 years with no issues. I think the installation and the material is the two biggest factors. You can ride over them w/o any problems and they deter water off the trail.


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## UncleTrail (Sep 29, 2007)

dl1030 said:


> or dig in some trenches (Not the best example, but the only one i could find).


I've been off the bike for 9 months now because of a rogue 
trailbuilder doing something similar to this. He dug a trench like this 
across the trail about 8 inches wide in the middle of a berm. 
You couldn't see it since it was dirt.

I was sitting about an inch off the saddle and me rear wheel hit the square 
edge and kicked my saddle into my prostate. Blunt force trauma. 6 months 
on antibiotics and I'm still not riding like I used to... :madman:


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

prooperator said:


> they were installed on the 40% slope and they are working very well. I thought it was agreat idea then and now it is confirmed. Those rubber waterbars have been in place for close to 3 years with no issues. I think the installation and the material is the two biggest factors. You can ride over them w/o any problems and they deter water off the trail.


Please explain how they could be good in more detail. It makes no sense to me. Firstly I cannot understand why something unnatural should be part of a trail system and second, they are **** to ride as well as maintain.


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