# New 2015 Shimano XTR 1x11



## slavdo (Feb 1, 2013)

Here are some news about Shimano XTR 1x11 groupset:

2015 NEW SHIMANO! | MTB-News.de


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## mik8yu (Jul 25, 2012)

For real this time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

mik8yu said:


> For real this time?


It's hard to say. The website in OP's post definitely looks bogus. But saying that, Shimano has been doing 11-speed stuff on their road bikes for at least a couple years now, so it's only a matter of time before that technology moves over to mountain bikes.


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## vizsladog (Mar 15, 2009)

Dude. It's pictures of a Shimano catalog. Did you see the Di2 stuff???


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

mtb-news.de is not a bogus site  It is one of the biggest german mtb forums.

Anyhow. The info is most likely legit. I had it cross-confirmed with other sources


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## slavdo (Feb 1, 2013)

Picture speak for themselves.


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## moefosho (Apr 30, 2013)

Those cranks are sexy! 11-40T should be a large enough range for most riders.


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## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

The link threw me to a bike related spam site for some reason! Apologies, guys.

That reminds me, my computer has been running slow and acting funky lately, maybe it's time to clean it out...


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## slavdo (Feb 1, 2013)

The thread in my link has obviously been deleted...


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Finally!

Looks like no special drive shell is needed. 11-40 is a good call by shimano - at least it is for my east coast needs.

I think the cranks look cheesy but I won't be buying them anyway. Just want the shifter, cassette and derailleur.


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

11-40 1x11 is not enough for me. i will stick with 2x10 until the x9.1 becomes available.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

It'll still force you to buy new wheels...or at least a rear if your hub is not compatible with the 11sp freehub.

I was on the verge of going XX1/01 until I found out that my new rear wheel is not XD compatible. I doubt that the Shimano 11sp will be compatible either.


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## JMac47 (Apr 23, 2004)

RS VR6 said:


> It'll still force you to buy new wheels...or at least a rear if your hub is not compatible with the 11sp freehub.
> 
> I was on the verge of going XX1/01 until I found out that my new rear wheel is not XD compatible. I doubt that the Shimano 11sp will be compatible either.


This is the one deterring factor in making the switch. Can't ad the wheel part into the budget equation. :/


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## Jerome (Dec 21, 2003)

More here : Shimano 2015 XTR - Premières images


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## LetoEscobar (Jan 3, 2013)

I like the Di2 but the range of the cassette is to limited 11/40 compared to srams 10/42


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## rjedoaks (Aug 10, 2009)

Nice to see 2/3 X still being offered if desired. 24/40 is way low


Pedaling


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## FastBanana (Aug 29, 2013)

Those chainrings dont look replaceable.

I also dont like the knuckle design on the rear d. I like the upper cog to sit foward of the linkage, in order to give plenty of clearance on FSR/Horst link suspensions. 

Overall, its very "meh". Ill keep running my 9 speed stuff, and if I buy a new bike, and it has XX1 or XTR 11, then cool, I'll keep it. 

On another point of discussion, does anyone else have chainsuck issues on 10 speed stuff? It seems my 10 speed stuff has to be super clean to not chainsuck.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

LetoEscobar said:


> I like the Di2 but the range of the cassette is to limited 11/40 compared to srams 10/42


It is actually not a very big difference: compare the following gear ratios with 28 vs 30 chainring:

1140 x 30 => 2.73 to .75 (XTR 2015?)
1142 x 30 => 2.73 to .71 (aftermarket)
1042 x 28 => 2.80 to .67 (SRAM $1000-1500)

With a 1140 you loose at most three quarters of gear in respect to 1042. with 1142 you are almost identical. (Reason is that 11 to 10 is a very small gap, 1042 is actually a bit of silly idea).

I would have preferred that Shimano came out with 1142 10 speed, but because I am migrating from 9 speed 1140 eleven speed will do just great. For people that do not mind a dual ring a 1140 cassette with, say, 26 and 40 chain ring offers a massive range.


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## GilbyVT (Jul 9, 2011)

FastBanana said:


> Those chainrings dont look replaceable.


It's hard to tell, but I bet they're using a spiderless direct-mount design. I think Shimano knows better than to make a crankset without replaceable chainrings.


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## FastBanana (Aug 29, 2013)

GilbyVT said:


> It's hard to tell, but I bet they're using a spiderless direct-mount design. I think Shimano knows better than to make a crankset without replaceable chainrings.


And you would think every manufacturer would make servicable cassettes, but they dont.


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## D_Man (Jan 7, 2004)

slavdo said:


> The thread in my link has obviously been deleted...


A similar thread was deleted on the weight weenies site as well.


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## GilbyVT (Jul 9, 2011)

FastBanana said:


> And you would think every manufacturer would make servicable cassettes, but they dont.


That's a different discussion, but I personally don't have a need for seviceable cassettes. By the time one cog reaches the end of its life, others will be close behind. I'd rather just replace the whole cassette, chain and maybe chainring(s) together. That being said, I don't use cassettes like the XTR with titanium cogs that tend to wear more quickly.

I looked more closely at the literature that was posted and it says the Hollowtech II crank arm is "compatible with all of the new XTR chainrings." So, it looks like they will be replaceable.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Davide said:


> It is actually not a very big difference: compare the following gear ratios with 28 vs 30 chainring:
> 
> 1140 x 30 => 2.73 to .75 (XTR 2015?)
> 1142 x 30 => 2.73 to .71 (aftermarket)
> ...


You are so consistently wrong on your XX1 pricing Davide - Nobody pays MSRP - Srams XX1 can frequently be picked up for $900 ish. Knock off the $hit about $1500.

And yes, $900 is still expensive, but at least stay accurate. I know ya got it in ya.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

006_007 said:


> You are so consistently wrong on your XX1 pricing Davide - Nobody pays MSRP - Srams XX1 can frequently be picked up for $900 ish. Knock off the $hit about $1500.
> 
> And yes, $900 is still expensive, but at least stay accurate. I know ya got it in ya.


Maybe you can tray to say something interesting for a change? I put a range of $1000-1500, it all depends where/when you buy and if you need to buy an extra wheel. The low end of my range is actually $100 away from your claim so what's your point ...:skep:

The post was about the new Shimano more than anything else, if the rumor is true I am a bit disappointed about the 11 speed which I think is useless, but happy about the 1140 that is a very nice set up and plenty range-wise, with a dual ring and Di2 it will be huge for the people that need it.

But I also think that it is good to reiterate that $1000-$1500 spent on SRAM in 2014 gets you a system that has no advantage in respect to 1142, and has just a tiny bit more range in respect to 1140. Things have changed since last year when you only had 1136 as an alternative to 1042, and SRAM really looks like a silly waste of money.


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

is this really it? after all the rumours of something groundbreaking coming from shimano, something that would wipe out xx1, they are bringing out a 10-40 cassette. 

I'm a shimano person through and through, can't stand sram gear, but is this the best they could do? What a shame. They should have gone 10-43 to be competitive.


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## vizsladog (Mar 15, 2009)

Why? If you havent noticed the cassette will run on a more standard cassete. The hubs say 10/11 speed compatible so im guessing its the newer 11speed freehub that is now very common for road bikes. And it looks like american classic has had a disc 11 speed hub out for a while


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Davide said:


> Maybe you can tray to say something interesting for a change? I put a range of $1000-1500, it all depends where/when you buy and if you need to buy an extra wheel. The low end of my range is actually $100 away from your claim so what's your point ...:skep:
> 
> The post was about the new Shimano more than anything else, if the rumor is true I am a bit disappointed about the 11 speed which I think is useless, but happy about the 1140 that is a very nice set up and plenty range-wise, with a dual ring and Di2 it will be huge for the people that need it.
> 
> But I also think that it is good to reiterate that $1000-$1500 spent on SRAM in 2014 gets you a system that has no advantage in respect to 1142, and has just a tiny bit more range in respect to 1140. Things have changed since last year when you only had 1136 as an alternative to 1042, and SRAM really looks like a silly waste of money.


So you are happy with the 11-40 but unhappy with the 10-42 but love the 11-42 hack even though you have seen no prices yet on the Shimano system and have no real time experience with the Sram or hack? Just making sure I got this right.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

bdundee said:


> So you are happy with the 11-40 but unhappy with the 10-42 but love the 11-42 hack even though you have seen no prices yet on the Shimano system and have no real time experience with the Sram or hack? Just making sure I got this right.


Ok, obviously you are a little bit slow on the intake, so let me take you again step by step:

1042 is nonsense. Yes, if you take the cog max/min ratios it is 420%, and that seems huge in respect to the 1142 378%. In reality that ratio means nothing, because you do not have continuously varying chain rings, but can only use 26, 28, 30, 32 etc. As a result 1142 x 30 gives you an almost identical range to 1042 x 28. The difference? 42 aftermarket is $90 while SRAM 1042 is ten times that amount at a minimum. Nonsense.

I would prefer, on paper, if Shimano, or somebody else, come out with a nicely spaced 10 speed 1142, but for me is still just an extra: I have been using 1136 9 speed for the last two years :yesnod:

BTW: 942 (Leonardi) is the only way to get a full extra gear in respect to an 11 minimum cog cassette.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Davide said:


> Ok, obviously you are a little bit slow on the intake, so let me take you again step by step:
> 
> 1042 is nonsense. Yes, if you take the cog max/min ratios it is 420%, and that seems huge in respect to the 1142 378%. In reality that ratio means nothing, because you do not have continuously varying chain rings, but can only use 26, 28, 30, 32 etc. As a result 1142 x 30 gives you an almost identical range to 1042 x 28. The difference? 42 aftermarket is $90 while SRAM 1042 is ten times that amount at a minimum. Nonsense.
> 
> ...


Personally I could give a rats a$$ what your paper says, answer my question have you actually had any real experience? Do you actually know how each system performs, there is more to it than gear ratios.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

bdundee said:


> Personally I could give a rats a$$ what your paper says, answer my question have you actually had any real experience? Do you actually know how each system performs, there is more to it than gear ratios.


Love this: "what your paper says". As if math was an opinion!

There is nothing to know, it is just a drive train: we know that as we speak a 42 aftermarket has the limitation of having to take out a cog in the middle of the range. When I put together my 9 speed 1136 using a FRM aftermarket 36, I cannibalized two XT cassettes just to avoid a jump in the gears. And we know as well that any Shimano or SRAM cassette will be fine no matter what its range.

Do you use 1042? Be happy, you own the fractionally highest range cassette on the market. It cost you a harm and a leg to have a fraction of an extra gear, but hei ... free country! :thumbsup:


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## jaisun (Feb 3, 2012)

Davide said:


> I would prefer, on paper, if Shimano, or somebody else, come out with a nicely spaced 10 speed 1142, but for me is still just an extra: I have been using 1136 9 speed for the last two years :yesnod:


I've been asking the folks I know at Shimano for this very thing. 10 speed cassette. I'd even be happy with 11-40.

We'll see how it goes with the OneUp cog.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Davide said:


> Love this: "what your paper says". As if simple math was an opinion!
> 
> There is nothing to know, it is just a drive train: we know that as we speak a 42 aftermarket has the limitation of having to take out a cog in the middle of the range, we know that any Shimano or SRAM cassette will be fine.


You must be a little slow on the intake, I am speaking of performance issues not gear ratios. The problem with the 42 hack has nothing to do with the 17t being removed, heck I've been running with the 17t out for about a year on my fat bike and shifting has been great. It's a problem with the shifting due to lack of chain wrap from the derailleur not being made for such a gear range. Try it then come back and preach, maybe you will have good luck and maybe you wont but at least you might gain some credibility.

I've learned you can build cassettes in great ranges that yes on paper look as good as the xx1 system but without the proper made derailleur to go with it the system is lacking.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Davide said:


> Do you use 1042? Be happy, you own the fractionally highest range cassette on the market. It cost you a harm and a leg to have a fraction of an extra gear, but hei ... free country! :thumbsup:


I have both the XTR 10 speed and the X01, two different systems for two different bikes and both are excellent in their applications. I tried like hell to like the 42 hack but maybe I am just to picky.

Peace.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

bdundee said:


> It's a problem with the shifting due to lack of chain wrap from the derailleur not being made for such a gear range. Try it then come back and preach, maybe you will have good luck and maybe you wont but at least you might gain some credibility.


You are funny: "gain credibility"! 

We all know (we read the same forum, don't we?) that according to some the 42 might give some problems, and some of those reports point to a lack of chain wrap as the culprit. Some don't, and seem very happy. It does not really matter, even if that was a real problem wait six months and Shimano (and additional SRAM) derailleurs will come out fidgeted to have more uptake.

Same for the cassette, the uneven spacing of the cassette when you use an aftermarket might not be a problem, but it is not the way you would design a cassette from ground zero. And once again a nicely spaced (or gap spaced for that matter) 1142 is indistinguishable from a 1042 at a tiny fraction of the cost.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Davide said:


> And once again a nicely spaced (or gap spaced for that matter) 1142 is indistinguishable from a 1042 at a tiny fraction of the cost.


And this I agree on as long as shifting performance is equal as well as durability.


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## lawman1991 (Jun 4, 2010)

I for one would sure prefer a product with no compromise in terms of shifting performance with a small gear range disadvantage than a simple bodge job. The WTC and OneUP cogs are no doubt great if you can live with the potential setup and performance issues, I'd personally be happy to give up a little range for near flawless shift performance and not over-stress my kit by asking it to do something it isn't designed to do.

A factory 10 speed 11-40 or 42t cassette is no doubt possible, but with current rear mechs not designed to cope with such systems, why not do what Shimano have done and go 11 speed? I agree that they could have taken the concept further, but my thinking is this XTR grouppo has been designed around various chainring combos and a cassette that works with all of them, hence the slight reduction in gear range. I honestly would not be surprised if Shimano pulled a dedicated "enduro" group out of the bag at Sea Otter, much like Saint and Zee for DH. Dedicated 1x and a wider range cassette, possibly priced between XT and XTR much like Saint it. Pure speculation of course, and if I'm wrong I'll happily put 2015 1x11 XTR on my next bike!


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

I like Shimano stuff, its my preference on all my bikes but SRAM have them beaten hands down here and I'm glad I have XX1 on my Bronson now and did not wait for new XTR.


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

what about wi-fi technology on Di2 ?


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Rick Draper said:


> I like Shimano stuff, its my preference on all my bikes but SRAM have them beaten hands down here and I'm glad I have XX1 on my Bronson now and did not wait for new XTR.


I really wanted to like XX1 but SRAM feels like something is breaking every time you shift it. It feels FAR less smooth than Shimano. I guess that's more of a priority to me than having an extra gear. Different strokes.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

eliflap said:


> what about wi-fi technology on Di2 ?


Its not.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Alias530 said:


> I really wanted to like XX1 but SRAM feels like something is breaking every time you shift it. It feels FAR less smooth than Shimano. I guess that's more of a priority to me than having an extra gear. Different strokes.


Has it ever broken though? Mine is smooth as silk and works faultlessly.

Shimano shadow rear mechs leave a lot to be desired and are far from durable.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

Call me a curmudgeon. Although, I firmly believe in 1 x technology the more I read of the latest / greatest 
the strong voice of Sheldon Brown rings true.

6-speed, 7-speed, 8-speed, 9-speed, 10-speed, 11-speed?

While the entire article is relevant, the first 2 paragraphs say it well. 
-----
"Component manufacturers like to sell you lots of new parts, even if you don't need them. This has led to much confusion as various parts are labeled as if they are incompatible with other parts even though they are actually usable with little or no problem. Also, design often is churned by spec hype, and "keeping up with the Joneses," as in more sprockets, lighter weight, higher-priced components must be better. "Jones" is also a slang term for a drug addiction!

In reality, the fancier parts aren't always the most suitable, in the same way that a Ferrari, while it is a great racecar, isn't at all as good for daily transportation as a Toyota -- there are practical issues of cost, reliability, serviceability and durability. With bicycle components, the performance gain with higher-end models is often minusucule. Remember, you account for 80 percent of the weight even if you are riding a rather heavy bicycle!"


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

If what we can see from the pictures is right I think shimano has done it pretty well. If it can fit on a standard hub that is $100 less than XX1 instantly, and xtr has always been cheaper than XX and in line with or a little cheaper than XO. I think the 11-40 is plenty big enough. With an 11-36 if an ride everything but it would be nice to have a lower gear, 4 more teeth is quite a bit lower gear and I don't spin out with a 32-11 so a 32 with a 40 out back should be pretty equal to a 34-42 where I wouldn't use the 10t on the xx1, I see no need for the 10 that just makes a new standard for a new driver. I think when shimano releases it they may have an 11-42 cassette for just 1x use as the pic sayed 2x11 and 3x11. I like the feel of shimano better so I will probably hold out for this. I was just about ready to pull the trigger on XX1, but this makes me want to wait. The Di2 has a lot of potential for the mtb world as well. We'll see how this turns out but I would probably order as soon as it comes out.


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## pharmaboy (Nov 11, 2005)

Davide said:


> Maybe you can tray to say something interesting for a change? I put a range of $1000-1500, it all depends where/when you buy and if you need to buy an extra wheel. The low end of my range is actually $100 away from your claim so what's your point ...:skep:
> 
> The post was about the new Shimano more than anything else, if the rumor is true I am a bit disappointed about the 11 speed which I think is useless, but happy about the 1140 that is a very nice set up and plenty range-wise, with a dual ring and Di2 it will be huge for the people that need it.
> 
> But I also think that it is good to reiterate that $1000-$1500 spent on SRAM in 2014 gets you a system that has no advantage in respect to 1142, and has just a tiny bit more range in respect to 1140. Things have changed since last year when you only had 1136 as an alternative to 1042, and SRAM really looks like a silly waste of money.


Seriously davide, you don't seem to understand the market at the upper end at all. You compare the pricing of xx1 with xtr and what those products deliver . The people buying this stuff are generally buying it for a new bike and are not comparing it to an slx pimped up groupo with aftermarket bits.

When you are building up a $7000 bike, an extra $400 or $500 is nothing - in the same way you don't buy a $20 KNC stem for the bike or a $40 alloy bar. No one who shops for absolute value will be buying it, same as the value shopper doesnt buy a Maserati .

For me XX1 was a big enough step to take me away from shimano, but my next build was an SLX one ( different bikes, different needs ). There is no doubt at all that xx1 is a really nice groupset ( with shimano brakes of course )


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## Kanik (Sep 28, 2011)

I am surprised at all this squabbling about the size of the cassette. The big news here is obviously the electronics. The cassette is slightly higher range, big whoop. SRAM's cassette still has fairly more range, but the absolute range of a cassette is probably a lot less noticeable than shifting performance.

But the main reason that the size of the cassette doesn't matter is because of the Di2 front derailleur. Anyone who has used a Di2 system knows that the front derailleur/front shifting is the best of any system ever available. It is very quick, shifts in any conditions (the use of Di2 in CX has already shown this, and CX race bikes tend to get dirtier/muddier than most people's MTBs), and doesn't rub. Sure, it will still be a little bit louder than XX1 as the chain will still bang on the derailleur, but the polymer insert on the FD cage quiets this and so does the Shadow Plus. If you really want quiet, you still have to go singlespeed.

1x is nice, and I like it (but I'm a singlespeeder), but the fact is that most people still like the big gear range and will be sticking with 2x or maybe even 3x. I don't know if the Di2 FD will support 3x, however. SRAM couldn't make a very good front derailleur, so they abandoned it and made the cassette bigger. Shimano *can*, and does make a very good front derailleur and crankset. People who will use XTR Di2 will forget about the hassle that front derailleurs usually are (because Di2 simply works) and come to appreciate the tighter spacing in back and the extremely quick and significant downshift you can get when you shift into the granny ring on a double. With Shimano, you can drop you gear by 150% with just the push of a button, but with SRAM, you have to mash the downshift lever and wait for the chain to come around to the top of the cassette before the ratio actually changes. A downshift on the front instantly starts to change ratio, even before the chain has reached the small chainring. 


And that omits the most important part of electronics: lack of maintenance. Charging the battery is easy and only needs to be done infrequently, and the indexing is so much more consistent over time. There are so many people with misadjusted mechanical drivetrains who are dealing with poor shifting because it is actually a fairly skilled task to tune a derailleur (especially the front), and they just aren't up to it. Di2 is set and forget unless it gets bashed, and it is still easier to adjust than a mechanical system. 

Nearly every mechanic I talk to loves Di2 because it makes our job a lot easier. I'm very excited about this groupset.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

Kanik said:


> I am surprised at all this squabbling about the size of the cassette. The big news here is obviously the electronics. The cassette is slightly higher range, big whoop. SRAM's cassette still has fairly more range, but the absolute range of a cassette is probably a lot less noticeable than shifting performance.
> 
> Nearly every mechanic I talk to loves Di2 because it makes our job a lot easier. I'm very excited about this groupset.


Very good points. A duo with 1140 and Di2 gives a stunning range with what looks like seamless front ring transitions. I am probably not going back to double but just using an electronic rear would actually be great, effortless shifting and custom settings, with instant "whole cassette" shifting. Homemade "preview" version: What can we expect from Shimano 2015?


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## Doba (Nov 29, 2008)

SHIMANO XTR 2015 Di2

Didn't look to see if that link was posted. Same information and pictures.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Di2 is great on road bikes. Hanging a £350-£400 off the back of a mountain bike that risks getting smashed off every single minute of every ride does not sound that sensible IMHO.


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

i have installed a Di2 trasmission on my 29er , using the 7970 group with customized shifters and internal battery.

very happy after lots of months , almost an year.
36-24 and rear 11-36

this new XTR Di2 will be sure 3 steps beyond mine.


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## Kanik (Sep 28, 2011)

In my opinion, the only custom setting that would be worth anything is enabling other speeds, such as 8, 9, 10 speed etc. The multi-shift thing is really dumb, the delay is too long and there is no feedback to let to know how many times you have shifted. Its not a machine gun, you don't need to be able to just hold it down. Much better to just keep it on semi-auto. You can easily shift it faster on semi than you can on full. 

Obviously though, Shimano wouldn't enable other speed settings to be used even though the hardware is perfectly capable of indexing other speeds. Not that you really get an indexing reliability advantage with using less speeds like you do with mechanical, but the chains and cassettes are still cheaper.

The main reason for electronics is reliability. They are rock solid.


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## ftajiri (Dec 19, 2009)

These shimano shifters like the fox/shimano remote lockout lever... 



Send from Tapatalk via GalaxyTab


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## KonaSS (Sep 29, 2004)

Very interested to hear pricing on this group, especially after all the XX1 price bashing. Anyone hear any rumblings on price?


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## vizsladog (Mar 15, 2009)

KonaSS said:


> Very interested to hear pricing on this group, especially after all the XX1 price bashing. Anyone hear any rumblings on price?


 You better be sitting down. It will be at least as much for the mechanical group. The di2 rear derailure alone will be $700-850

It WILL require a new hub. Its the same as the road 11 speed hub/cassette


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Di2 stuff is mad spendy. Won't be any cheaper than XX1. 

I'd bet Di2 Dura Ace would be a good starting point for price.


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## Znarf (Nov 12, 2005)

I wouldn´t care if it is spendy. 
If it delivers the features of the X01 (11-40 would be plenty for me) - but with better durability I´ll buy it.

I really love my X01 - (in theory) - and wouln´t go back to a 2x system, but durability and longevity of the cassette and rear derailleur on the X01 is bad.

I´ve been riding my X01 drivetrain since november. Granted - muddy winter conditions. But no salt etc.
And it shows sings of wear already and even the rear derailleur had to be sent in for warranty once already.

It shifts a lot worse in the higher (smaller cogs) gears and the black finish is starting to wear off on some cogs.

Shieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

But at the same time I am spoiled. I wouldn´t want to ride a noisy clutchless derailleur anymore. 
No chain rattle is VERY addictive!


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Znarf said:


> I wouldn´t care if it is spendy.
> If it delivers the features of the X01 (11-40 would be plenty for me) - but with better durability I´ll buy it.
> 
> I really love my X01 - (in theory) - and wouln´t go back to a 2x system, but durability and longevity of the cassette and rear derailleur on the X01 is bad.
> ...


I can't get over how nasty SRAM shifts compared to Shimano. I test rode several X01/XX1 bikes and the shifting was nowhere near as clean and crisp. And less than $450 for EVERYTHING.

XT crank - $140
XTR shifter - $90
RaceFace n/w - $50
XT Shadow+ RD - $60
XT cassette - $60
XT chain - $40


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## TJay74 (Sep 26, 2012)

local shop has been getting a lot of us to convert over, I so far have stayed with my 2x10 XT. Guy I ride with went from his SRAM 2x10 to the XX1 1x11. On Sunday with only 2 other rides on the new setup he thrashed the big ring on the XX1 cassette.

He was in the big ring, climbing up a decent climb. Next thing we heard a loud crack and rear wheel bound up. Chain was wedged between spokes and cassette. Cassette was bent in towards the next ring for a span of about 5 teeth (basically from one support web to the next).

LBS is getting SRAM to warranty the cassette, but still at a loss for words as to why it failed.

Think I will stick with my XT 2x10 for now


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

if the chain was on the large cog when it failed, i see no way for it to jump over into the spokes. i would venture a guess that when the cog broke, the chain was already wedged in the spokes. i think the lesson here is, makes no sense to spend $1000 on a groupset if you have a worthless mechanic who can't set Hi/Lo limits properly.


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## FastBanana (Aug 29, 2013)

syl3 said:


> if the chain was on the large cog when it failed, i see no way for it to jump over into the spokes. i would venture a guess that when the cog broke, the chain was already wedged in the spokes. i think the lesson here is, makes no sense to spend $1000 on a groupset if you have a worthless mechanic who can't set Hi/Lo limits properly.


Sram cassettes are known to have cogs bend inward. It can bend, and continue spinnin around, next rotation the chain is getting jammed in the wheel. Not a mechanic's fault for sure.

Sent from my LG-LS995 using Tapatalk


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## TJay74 (Sep 26, 2012)

yeah the limits were fine, bike had about 50 miles on the setup without issues. I think like said, when the big ring broke between the support webs and bent in towards the next ring on the next pass the bent teeth acted like a ramp and directed the chain in towards the spokes.


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## Bighec (Apr 1, 2009)

slavdo said:


> Picture speak for themselves.


Sexy, but SRAM is sexier... lol


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## Jumpcaser (Apr 7, 2012)

Cool, so XTR in 2015 which means SLX in 2017? 

Pssst, Shimano, there's money to be made in a legit system that is cheaper than X01 right now. Oh, nevermind I forgot about that whole tradition of slowly working your new product down the line.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Jumpcaser said:


> Cool, so XTR in 2015 which means SLX in 2017?
> 
> Pssst, Shimano, there's money to be made in a legit system that is cheaper than X01 right now. Oh, nevermind I forgot about that whole tradition of slowly working your new product down the line.


R&D costs money, I'm sure they're doing what makes sense for them. Can't just snap your fingers and have a new system that works well.

Kind of surprised they've had it (11spd) out for road for a bit but no MTB...


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## norcom (Feb 22, 2007)

Alias530 said:


> Kind of surprised they've had it (11spd) out for road for a bit but no MTB...


Why? There's absolutely no competition out there. There's SRAM and there's Shimano; aka Comcast and TWC. 

Hadn't Shimano usually released XT first to test the waters? Now they're going straight out with XTR to make the most money because they know they can. It can fail miserably, they'll still make money and you'll still buy the next version.

And damnit, I want this drivetrain.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

norcom said:


> Why? There's absolutely no competition out there. There's SRAM and there's Shimano; aka Comcast and TWC.
> 
> Hadn't Shimano usually released XT first to test the waters? Now they're going straight out with XTR to make the most money because they know they can. It can fail miserably, they'll still make money and you'll still buy the next version.
> 
> And damnit, I want this drivetrain.


I'm surprised because they're letting SRAM win when people want high end, wide range, 11 spd, etc mountain systems.

Personally I'd rather 11-36 Shimano than any SRAM combo regardless of price but many others are stuck with X01 or XX1


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I can't get over how heinous those cranks look.


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## LB412 (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm going the poor mans route... race face 30T narrow/wide and a 42T from oneup. Installing tomorrow.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

LB412 said:


> I'm going the poor mans route... race face 30T narrow/wide and a 42T from oneup. Installing tomorrow.


I just put this on my son's bike. I'll test it tomorrow.

The 30tooth front is perfect. The 42t on the back is clunky.

fc


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## Iamrockandroll13 (Feb 10, 2013)

Alias530 said:


> I can't get over how nasty SRAM shifts compared to Shimano. I test rode several X01/XX1 bikes and the shifting was nowhere near as clean and crisp. And less than $450 for EVERYTHING.
> 
> XT crank - $140
> XTR shifter - $90
> ...


Funny, because everything SRAM I've ridden has the most positive shifting of any groupset, road or mtb. SRAM stuff really pops into gear with a snap, crisply and affirmatively...you know that it shifted. If that's what you mean by nasty...I'll take nasty all day. I hate the vague feeling shimano stuff has comparitively.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

Iamrockandroll13 said:


> Funny, because everything SRAM I've ridden has the most positive shifting of any groupset, road or mtb. SRAM stuff really pops into gear with a snap, crisply and affirmatively...you know that it shifted. If that's what you mean by nasty...I'll take nasty all day. I hate the vague feeling shimano stuff has comparitively.


Is rather have the quiet. Would make sense to be able to hear things in other components but you should be able to feel the difference in gearing once you've shifted. It's not like you need to hear your brakes to know they're working, you can feel the difference in speed.


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## Yody (Jan 21, 2008)

francois said:


> I just put this on my son's bike. I'll test it tomorrow.
> 
> The 30tooth front is perfect. The 42t on the back is clunky.
> 
> fc


Yup, and this is why I think the hack 42T is for the true Single ring rider who runs a bigger front chainring and could use the extra gear out back and is willing to deal with the compromise and doesn't want to pay the $$$XX1. NOT for the guy who is running a 2x10 and thinks they can get XX1 performance and lose the weight without paying the price.

For now I'm willing to have the clunky shifting to get that better cadence on the steeper climbs. Definitely clunky tho...

And yeah, those cranks are fugly as hell. Best shimano cranks ever made M970 XTR cranks.


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## AlexRandall (Apr 2, 2009)

Alias530 said:


> I can't get over how nasty SRAM shifts compared to Shimano.


I'll echo the call for something fishy too - maybe a deliberate use of a badly adjusted SRAM to keep him feeling good about his Shimano. I had 3-ride old XT (without the clutch derailleur) on 1 bike, and then swapped to my other bike (which was freshly cabled) with a 2 year old XX shifter and 3 year old XO rear derailleur. No question, the SRAM shifter better.


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## LB412 (Nov 28, 2012)

Yody said:


> Yup, and this is why I think the hack 42T is for the true Single ring rider who runs a bigger front chainring and could use the extra gear out back and is willing to deal with the compromise and doesn't want to pay the $$$XX1. NOT for the guy who is running a 2x10 and thinks they can get XX1 performance and lose the weight without paying the price
> 
> For now I'm willing to have the clunky shifting to get that better cadence on the steeper climbs. Definitely clunky tho...
> 
> And yeah, those cranks are fugly as hell. Best shimano cranks ever made M970 XTR cranks.


I'll post my results after the install tomorrow.

I'm ok with a little clunky because I don't use my current 24 x 36 very often... But I need that ratio for 3 climbs that I can't do in the 30 x 36 combo.


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## gamalierlozada (Apr 2, 2013)

Perfect!! Now the 10 speed will go cheap as dirt! I run a 1x10 (30-11/36) and have the legs to spin it so no 11/40 needed. Can't be happier.


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## Fuglio (Jul 15, 2011)

LB412 said:


> I'm going the poor mans route... race face 30T narrow/wide and a 42T from oneup. Installing tomorrow.


Amen!! I could care less about , 11speed. With all the. After market products a new groupset falls flat.


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## eurospek (Sep 15, 2007)

Fuglio said:


> Amen!! I could care less about , 11speed. With all the. After market products a new groupset falls flat.


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## Fuglio (Jul 15, 2011)

Thanks euro, it bugs me when others say it amd i just got busted myself. 


The introduction of another 11 speed component group has not piqued my interest. With so many third-party add-ons, the news of shimanos latest drive train has me rolling my eyes.


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## AlexRandall (Apr 2, 2009)

Fuglio said:


> Amen!! I could care less about , 11speed. With all the. After market products a new groupset falls flat.


Maybe I could give you a hand with your punctuation.

In all seriousness, 1x isn't new, but making a system which works as a cohesive unit without need for a chainguide (so you can change ring sizes easily) is what is being seen here (mainly with SRAM, the shimano seems like an afterthought designed to try and keep up). 
I keep saying this, but these are race gruppos. If you just want to put something together to puddle around the trails on a weekend ride with your mates, then there's no need to have the most range, or the lightest weight. The odd chain drop, or time/effort spent in getting it fine-tuned is nothing either. For racers though, you need to have it work flawlessly with no extra fine tuning right out of the box.


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## Fuglio (Jul 15, 2011)

Uhh ohhh alex randel is here to give everyone race tips. 

I would be interested to know why you would characterize the shimano groupset ast an "afterthought" . 

I think the biggest change to come out of the 1x paradigm is short chainstays on bikes with no front derailure mounts. 

The electronic shifting turns me off. 

What needs to happen next is the manufacturing of internally geard hubs with a material other then cheese.


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## AlexRandall (Apr 2, 2009)

Mainly as they seek only to make something with 11 speed to my way of thought. There is no innovation in the way they have done the 11, it seems to be just an adaption of their 10sp gruppo to 1 extra gear. The electronic conversion to the mtb range will be interesting in how it goes.


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## willtsmith_nwi (Jan 1, 1970)

lawman1991 said:


> I for one would sure prefer a product with no compromise in terms of shifting performance with a small gear range disadvantage than a simple bodge job. !


Makes me wonder if SRAM will bring back Hammerschmidt to pair with 1x11 for a no compromise mega wide gearing setup.


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## rjkowski (Oct 14, 2009)

I find the front chainring on the 1X crank interesting. The scanned photos aren't good enough to show if the teeth have a narrow wide width, but they are good enough to show that the teeth do not have the taller tooth profile that are on every other narrow wide 1X chainring out there.


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## AlexRandall (Apr 2, 2009)

Yes, SRAM came up with the narrow/wide technology. There are rumblings that they will be patenting this too.
If they don't have the same tall profile, I guess its because they didn't need the height to ensure that the chain stays on. Looking at the website seems to indicate there's plenty of height though.


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## Fuglio (Jul 15, 2011)

AlexRandall said:


> Yes, SRAM came up with the narrow/wide technology. There are rumblings that they will be patenting this too.
> If they don't have the same tall profile, I guess its because they didn't need the height to ensure that the chain stays on. Looking at the website seems to indicate there's plenty of height though.


No they didn't "come up with it", narrow wide gears have been used for a long time for all sorts of applications. SRAM might run into some problems trying to patent the idea Patent US4174642 - Chain drive including sprocket having alternate wide and narrow teeth - Google Patents


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## Tourendo (Jan 22, 2004)

Not impressed, I think Shimano is totally missing the boat on this. Most here don't want yet another drivetrain standard, 10 speeds are more than enough.

A 10s 11-40 or 11-42 cassette with slightly revised gear ratios and a RD designed to handle that range is all most want. Make it compatible with existing 10 speed shifters and Shimano could sell these as fast as they could make them.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

The only reason people want the wide range 10s is for the alternative to XX1 because it is so expensive. Right now I think Shimano wants to create the XX1 competitor for the high end of the market. The wide range 10s is easily possible right now so why make that now. 

For shimano or SRAM all a wide range 10s takes is a new cassette with better ratios as they're derailleur already handle it


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## juan_speeder (May 11, 2008)

al-r said:


> Not impressed, I think Shimano is totally missing the boat on this. Most here don't want yet another drivetrain standard, 10 speeds are more than enough.


They said the exact same thing when freewheels (followed by cassettes) went from 5 to 6 , 6 to 7, 7 to 8, 8 to 9 and 9 to 10.

Yet, here we are.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

I feel like the weakness of the 1x system is in having to click so much to throw the chain across the full range. It'd be awesome if they had a pressure sensitive shifter.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

half_man_half_scab said:


> I feel like the weakness of the 1x system is in having to click so much to throw the chain across the full range. It'd be awesome if they had a pressure sensitive shifter.


Clicking a few times is just as fast if not faster than a shift in the front, and the new shimano shifters are awesome with 2 up and 4 down in one throw if the lever.


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## half_man_half_scab (Mar 7, 2006)

I've actually got 2012 xtr shifter and shadow plus set up as 1x10, currently. The 2 up is awesome, but what I'm saying is that electronic shifters would open the possibility of grabbing as many gears as you want at once. I do my riding in Sedona in the winter, and this would be a huge asset to throw it down 6 gears at a time for those trails where you're constantly in and out of washes.


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## LB412 (Nov 28, 2012)

Converted to 1x10 with the RaceFace narrow/wide 30T and the OneUp 42T today. Shifting cleanly. For those complaining did you read the instructions for the B screw adjustment for Shimano derailuers (removal of plastic piece)? It was a little rough before we made the fix.


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## setransou (Aug 15, 2007)

Step 29: Pick a drivetrain...now be a dick about it.


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## vizsladog (Mar 15, 2009)

Lol. What happens when you bust off that 700.00 di2 deraillure on a rock?


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm still trying to understand how electronic shifting "improves" things. My 105 equipped roadie could use some improved shifting, but that's only after getting caught in the rain once. It'll soon have full length housings and solve that issue.

My MTB? Assuming the hanger is straight? I press the lever, it goes click, it shifts. Every. Damn. Time. I can click off gears faster than the chain can follow, so there's no room for improvement there. Meh.


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## TJay74 (Sep 26, 2012)

I would never want Di2 on my MTB, sure it works great for the road but on the road it doesn't have to worry about jarring around and dirt and grime getting into those sensitive servo motors. It is bad enough when you have to replace a XT, XTR, XO, XX RD, much worse when it is an electronic RD.

I am on the fence, I liked the shifter on the SRAM stuff better than the Shimano XT I have now, so I am waiting to see what Shimano comes out with and how much it will cost. Historically from what I have seen Shimano's stuff will be solid, it will be slightly cheaper than SRAM but will weigh in a little more than SRAM.

Pro's and Cons to both systems from what I can see.


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## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

As Di2 works for mud-festivals aka CX better then cable shifters. I think it will handle the mtb shifting just fine. 

The thing Shimano is missing is the wide range cassette. 10-42 is one up in every direction.


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## Iamrockandroll13 (Feb 10, 2013)

The real advantage of Di2 is the front shifting. That's why the road version is so universally lauded. It auto trims, never drops, and shifts perfectly and smoothly every time. The rear shifting is pretty much not that big of a deal. For mountain biking I can't see Di2 really being that great unless you run a 2x set up.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

Iamrockandroll13 said:


> The real advantage of Di2 is the front shifting.


Gotcha. Well, unless Di2 can magically create front derailleur tire clearance, prevent chain drops as well as a narrow/wide ring, and not monkey with with my frame's anti-squat, I'm out.


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## myitch (Jan 25, 2004)

Does SRAM have a copyright to the XD driver? Or is there another reason they just didn't go 10T? I would prefer to have a 10-42T just like SRAM but made in Japan by Shimano.


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## Jon Richard (Dec 20, 2011)

willtsmith_nwi said:


> Makes me wonder if SRAM will bring back Hammerschmidt to pair with 1x11 for a no compromise mega wide gearing setup.


If they did I'd take a hard look at it for sure, kinda wish Shimano could figure out how to stuff 2 or three speed hub guts inside a PF30 shell.


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

myitch said:


> Does SRAM have a copyright to the XD driver? Or is there another reason they just didn't go 10T? I would prefer to have a 10-42T just like SRAM but made in Japan by Shimano.


Even if they did, Shimano already has a freehub body in their portfolio that is good down to 9 teeth: Capreo. The Candfield Microdrive uses this standard or some variation of it.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

My lbs quoted me a price for road di2. Wow. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FastBanana (Aug 29, 2013)

i dont understand the appeal of di2. I like the mechanical feel of cable shifting. and its cheap. win win

Sent from my LG-LS995 using Tapatalk


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

The point of Di2 is that you can program it for sequential shifting - thus giving you 1-shifter support for all the relevant combos on 3x11.

Like this:


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## zink (Sep 14, 2011)

Sequential shifting is one of the advantages of a 1x drivetrain. Di2 sequential shifting off road would just mess up pedaling with unexpected front shifts. The advantages of Di2 seems to be improved front shifts, possibly better shifting in mud and less cable maintenance. For racers who need the extra gear range, Di2 seems like it might have some benefits but otherwise 1x has the advantage everywhere else.


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## cokratex (Jul 28, 2012)

More pictures!

http://mtbs.cz/kategorie/mtbs-foto-uzivatelske-technika/album/9025

Sent from my LG-E975 using Tapatalk


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## randan (May 18, 2005)

Great link, thank you! But it's a pitty they only offer a 11-40 cassette. I was hoping for an additional XTR-Trail cassette with something like 11-44 teeth or so. 

I wonder if it will possible to mate a SRAM XX1 cassette with the new Shimano XTR rear derailleur....


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## Andrewfuzzy (Jan 25, 2012)

Ive got a 2 x XTR / XT Mashup on my Niner and have considered a change to 1 x when it needs it.....

Reason being the mud cloggs the front der and stops the chain dropping to the smaller ring. Ive had this a few times...a 1 x 10 wider range cassette would solve the issues without a complete replacement of the system...

I wonder if we will see slightly different ranges of cassette being produced now 29ers and 650b'ers are commonplace...similar to the newer cranks with 29er specific ratios.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

That would be ideal. I'm hoping a little bit of b-screw adjustment will make the 10-42 work perfectly with a Shimano mid-cage.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

This "direct route" front mech is made of awesome. I'm going to get one as soon as it gets available.


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## cokratex (Jul 28, 2012)

westin said:


> That would be ideal. I'm hoping a little bit of b-screw adjustment will make the 10-42 work perfectly with a Shimano mid-cage.


But if you buy the sram cassette, why not go ahead with sram derailleur and shifter as well. The xtr will surely be just as expensive!


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## myitch (Jan 25, 2004)

XTR is sweet but if its only 11t and costs just as much as SRAM I don't see an advantage to it. Im a Shimano fan too but I'd rather have a 10t if I'm going to pay premium prices.


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## vizsladog (Mar 15, 2009)

Whats with the 1x chainring?


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

myitch said:


> XTR is sweet but if its only 11t and costs just as much as SRAM I don't see an advantage to it. Im a Shimano fan too but I'd rather have a 10t if I'm going to pay premium prices.


I agree...the 10t is awesome for the paved/fire road sections you hit in some races. I spun out this year on a slightly downhill, dirt road section in a race earlier this year in my 34/11 gear and lost a good draft as a result.


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## Fuglio (Jul 15, 2011)

Stonerider said:


> I agree...the 10t is awesome for the paved/fire road sections you hit in some races. I spun out this year on a slightly downhill, dirt road section in a race earlier this year in my 34/11 gear and lost a good draft as a result.


To bad you didnt have a triple ring


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## StiHacka (Feb 2, 2012)

There's lots of interesting info in a Czech article coming with the photo gallery posted above. Standard hub driver, no narrow/wide teeth chainrings, the cranks are based on DuraAce road technology with a new asymmetric spider, the rings are made of titanium (hence the holes I guess). Look at the new direct pull hubs, oh and the new wheels will be available in 27.5 and 29 sizes only.

Shimano XTR 2015 - Tech news - Bike Technika - MTBS.cz


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## cornice6 (Aug 23, 2007)

First look 2015 Shimano M9000

11spd Cassette, Pick your drivetrain of choice!


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

At mtb nationals last year many Cat 1 and even pros swapped to a 2x10 for this reason. Many pros were forced to run XX1 for sponsors and were not happy. The fast fireroads down were a huge disadvantage for 1x riders geared low enough for the monster climbs on the other side. I'm a 1x fan, but admit the 2x10 has its place in racing not just riding. Traveling and spending a lot of money to race big events only to lose a draft or several positions for the sake of marketing or fashion (yes, 1x is also very fashionable in mtb) is, well, just bad decision making. Not you, Stonerider, but just in general. 

I don't see 2015 xtr being a good idea compared to their current 2x10 or competitors' 1x11.


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## uzurpator (Dec 8, 2005)

It has downed on me that this new "Direct Route" FD will allow to add the front mech to mani bikes that could not run it before.

Low direct mount "direct route" fd + e-type plate = fd on most bikes. With place for all the suspension kinematics. One could run an FD on Trek Session if one desired to do so.


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## zorg (Jul 1, 2004)

Been rocking a 24/38 double XT crank with an 11/40 XT cassette with a General Lee adapter for a while. It's perfect for my needs: super low gearing for steep climbs and broad range for everything else. All that for a mere $167 upgrade to my XT drivetrain. I don't get the 11 speed need on a double or triple crank. And the range is bad on a 1x. SRAM 1x11 system is going to spank Shimano on this one.


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## os2 (Jan 22, 2004)

Any news on whether Shimano will offer a 180mm crank option on their 1x11 for us taller riders and/or singlespeed riders who like that length? (Does not seem like SRAM has any plans to go longer than 175s for XX1.)


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## Huck N Fell (Jul 6, 2008)

os2 said:


> Any news on whether Shimano will offer a 180mm crank option on their 1x11 for us taller riders and/or singlespeed riders who like that length? (Does not seem like SRAM has any plans to go longer than 175s for XX1.)


For the trail version of cranks they do:
http://www.ridextr.com/specfiles/en/FC Complete Specs.pdf


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## GoldenDragoon (Apr 21, 2013)

My 2 cents....

When I got back into MTB almost a year ago I got a bike with 3x10. Once I started racing WW fever hit and I looked to improve the bike to make it faster. When I replaced the frame I also went 1x10. For racing I got a good amount of weight out plus shifting was better. I did experince some problems with rocky climbs as my 30/36 ratio took its toll on me in some areas. Not 100% happy with my 1x10 setup (and I wanted carbon wheels) I upgraded to X01. You notice the advantage of the wide range alot and my climbing power improved quite a bit making me over a minute quicker per lap (6k).

Moral of the story is range matters ALOT when you go 1x so if you want a good system then the best choice right now is clear, you get SRAM 1x. If you don't want to spend that much then "hacking" is definatley the next best option. It won't be perfect as you may have some shifting issues, and then you have the funny steps in the middle of the cassette, but you have more range and that is what makes 1x worth it. This new shimano system is pointless as it wouldn't matter if it was 15sp cause the 11-40 range is the big issue.

Just a side though... Shimano cassettes are heavy, how much does this new 11-40 weigh?


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

Claimed is 331 grams, compared to XX1s claimed 260


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## GoldenDragoon (Apr 21, 2013)

Thats not a bad weight for a shimano cassette considering the size....


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## randan (May 18, 2005)

Any idea when the new XTR stuff will be available?


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

randan said:


> Any idea when the new XTR stuff will be available?


August 2014


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## Expatriot (Oct 20, 2011)

August is coming to an end... my LHS say it will be available next month in group form. Still no price, but estimation 3 to 4 grand for the XTR complete set


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## 29erhoops (Sep 3, 2014)

*XTR M9000 Cassette - Actual Weight*

Finally received my XTR M9000 11-40t Cassette a couple of weeks ago. The issue is where is the rest? I have been told I should receive XTR 11 Speed I-Spec II this week, but they cannot confirm delivery of the XTR Rear Derailleur.

XTR M9000 11-40t Cassette - Actual Weight 329 Grams















Cassette mounted on a DT Swiss 240 10 Speed Freehub.


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## ftajiri (Dec 19, 2009)

Xtr di2 + xx1 cassette is a good wedding?


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## Expatriot (Oct 20, 2011)

It´s a little on the heavy side... My XTR 10 speed is 273 grams...


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Expatriot said:


> It´s a little on the heavy side... My XTR 10 speed is 273 grams...


It's bigger, has one more cog and you want it to be lighter?


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## Dry Side (Jun 7, 2011)

October 8th is the date I have heard for M9000 XTR. I see Trek is offering XTR 1x11 on several of their 2015 bikes.


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## Pau11y (Oct 15, 2004)

ftajiri said:


> Xtr di2 + xx1 cassette is a good wedding?


I want to know this too. Prefer the ergo of Shimano vs Sram. Plus, I actually like Shimano direct mount rear mechs and the beefy mech mount.


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## Expatriot (Oct 20, 2011)

well, in my OP 56 grams for another cog is a little bit on the heavy side. Honestly when I pay top dollar I want the best. In my opinion I find 329 an exaggeration, probably to give the 2016 model a diet.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

Expatriot said:


> well, in my OP 56 grams for another cog is a little bit on the heavy side. Honestly when I pay top dollar I want the best. In my opinion I find 329 an exaggeration, probably to give the 2016 model a diet.


As an example a Wolftooth 104BCD 38T aluminum chain ring is listed as 66g. and it is really just a ring with teeth.


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## 29erhoops (Sep 3, 2014)

Another day another part, today received XTR SL-9000 Shift Lever. I was also told XTR rear derailleurs are in the country but awaiting for a replacement part from Shimano.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Where did you buy from?



29erhoops said:


> Another day another part, today received XTR SL-9000 Shift Lever. I was also told XTR rear derailleurs are in the country but awaiting for a replacement part from Shimano.


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## Swissam (Apr 8, 2008)

Anyone know if this is coming to the XT line? I wouldn't mind XT 1x cranks with a N/W ring with a sram cassette and derailleur.


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## brmeyer135 (Mar 1, 2013)

Swissam said:


> Anyone know if this is coming to the XT line? I wouldn't mind XT 1x cranks with a N/W ring with a sram cassette and derailleur.


It has not been mentioned but usually new tech trickles down over the following few years...part of it will matter if it sells well...with a 3-4 thousand(for whole gruppo) price tag...that is stiff for most.


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## 29erhoops (Sep 3, 2014)

*Xtr rd-m9000*

The final piece to the puzzle, now I can get new bike finished.


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## randan (May 18, 2005)

Great! Where did you buy the new XTR?


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## 29erhoops (Sep 3, 2014)

randan said:


> Great! Where did you buy the new XTR?


Local bike shop here in New Zealand.


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## randan (May 18, 2005)

Thanks


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## Jerome (Dec 21, 2003)

:eekster: Gosh! I've just checked the price for the (coming soon) XTR M9050 (DI2) rear derailleur&#8230; CA $ 568!!! On the other side, the M9000 (mechanical) seems "affordable" at CA $189. Imagine breaking your lovely brand-new RD the first day you ride with it&#8230; Ouch!


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## car_nut (Apr 5, 2010)

Eeeek! I've broken enough derailleurs that I won't go above SLX/Zee/X7 unless it's on closeout pricing. Even if I get a derailleur to last a season, it's been disassembled and hammered straight at least once.


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## 29erhoops (Sep 3, 2014)

The shifting of the new XTR M9000 is fantastic - typically smooth Shimano shifting. 
The new XTR SL-M9000 I-Spec II shifter is not compatible with any of the other Shimano XT M785 and below I-Spec brake levers. It appears to be only compatible with the XTR BL-M9000 brake lever at this stage.
But were there is a will there is a way - machining aluminium.
















#dynasys11


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## oaklandish (May 7, 2011)

very clever 29erhoops. 

Now can you find a friends rear wheel with a SRAM xx1 hub and cassette and put it in your frame and tell us if it works with your XTR shifter and rear derailleur?


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## 29erhoops (Sep 3, 2014)

oaklandish said:


> very clever 29erhoops.
> 
> Now can you find a friends rear wheel with a SRAM xx1 hub and cassette and put it in your frame and tell us if it works with your XTR shifter and rear derailleur?


That shouldn't be a problem, just give me a day or two.


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## oaklandish (May 7, 2011)

Thanks. This is actually a very curious topic of discussion around this forum. I am very interested in hearing about what you find out.


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## cokratex (Jul 28, 2012)

*Sv: New 2015 Shimano XTR 1x11*



oaklandish said:


> Thanks. This is actually a very curious topic of discussion around this forum. I am very interested in hearing about what you find out.


What is the benefit of running the sram cassette with xtr drivetrain? If you want sram cassette range why not go all the way sram?


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## oaklandish (May 7, 2011)

I prefer the Shimano shifters and derailleurs but SRAM has, what I consider, the better gear range for the 11sp cogs. So mixing them might offer exactly what I am after.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Agreed...SRAM's gear range is the best for 1x racing.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

agree as well…just switched from 1x10 xtr to 1x11 XO1…love the range and ratios.


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## 29erhoops (Sep 3, 2014)

*XTR M9000 compatible with SRAM 11 Speed 10-42t Cassette*



oaklandish said:


> I prefer the Shimano shifters and derailleurs but SRAM has, what I consider, the better gear range for the 11sp cogs. So mixing them might offer exactly what I am after.


Glad to report that a wheel with a SRAM X01 10-40t cassette dropped straight into my bike, no adjustment was required to cable or derailleur limit screws.
Chain length was fine too, even with rear suspension fully compressed.


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## randan (May 18, 2005)

Great news! How about the shift quality? Does it shift well into the 42 tooth and 10 tooth cog?


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Thanks for taking the effort to upload pics and get that SRAM cassette wheel. 

I don't think the issue is if a rear wheel with a SRAM cassette fits into a frame with a Shimano derailleur attached.

The #1 question is shift quality and crispness due to potential spacing differences. Does the XTR 9000 shifter and rear derailleur work perfectly with the SRAM 10-42 in every gear.

Thanks in advance!


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## oaklandish (May 7, 2011)

Thanks for the pics. You are a pioneer!

But I'll third the response of the two posters above, and ask: how does it shift?


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## 29erhoops (Sep 3, 2014)

westin said:


> Thanks for taking the effort to upload pics and get that SRAM cassette wheel.
> 
> I don't think the issue is if a rear wheel with a SRAM cassette fits into a frame with a Shimano derailleur attached.
> 
> ...


Hi there,

I wasn't saying there would be an issue with fitting another wheel, providing it had the same DT Swiss (142 spacing) hub or compatible hub.
Just as stated that I dropped another wheel straight in and no adjustment required to rear derailleur.

The shifting quality is fine and perfectly acceptable in every gear (crisp as an electronic shift) - 10t and 42t inclusive. Appears cassette spacing is the same, as is the case with Shimano/SRAM 7, 8, 9 and 10 speed cassettes.

This is my first derailleur geared 1 x 11 bike**, will be interesting to see how the 11-40t cassette ratios go with running different combinations of 32t and 34t front rings (29er) over the coming summer. I like the concept of 1 x 11, sans front derailleur and shift - clean.

Less is more - hopefully?

I will be changing my S-Works Crux Di2 cyclocross bike over to 1 x 11 as well. Just need to play around with spring tension on existing rear derailleur or maybe run XTR Di2 (because of the additional feature of the clutch).

**I built up a fully rigid Crave SL initially as a work/commuter bike with E13 32t narrow-wide chainring and Shimano Alfine 11 speed internal hub (20t sprocket). But it ended up getting a fair amount of use on the trails over summer and winter has been a great bike, bullet proof so far and gear ratios have been adequate for the areas and trails I ride.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Awesome! Maybe start a new thread with the great news so everyone who is waiting for the M9000/10-42 compatibility can plan to make the conversion.

Thanks for the efforts!!


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## randan (May 18, 2005)

@29erhoops: What chain did you use for testing the X01 cassette with the new XTR derailleur? And the XTR derailleur you have is the normal one, not the one with the new direct mount standard for rear derailleurs, isn't it? Thanks in advance.


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## 29erhoops (Sep 3, 2014)

randan said:


> @29erhoops: What chain did you use for testing the X01 cassette with the new XTR derailleur? And the XTR derailleur you have is the normal one, not the one with the new direct mount standard for rear derailleurs, isn't it? Thanks in advance.


Hi there,

The chain currently fitted in A Shimano Dura Ace 9000 11 Speed Chain with 120 links, to allow for full compression of rear suspension - The new XTR CN-HG900 Chain isn't avaliable yet, although I have a couple on order.

The XTR M9000 Rear Derailleur is the standard direct mount model.

Cheers.


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## randan (May 18, 2005)

Thanks! I installed the XTR M9000 rear derailleur and a SRAM X01 cassette yesterday but couldn't get it to shift properly down to the 10 tooth sprocket. I am using a KMC X11-SL chain. It was late yesterday and I wasn’t patient enough to fix it. I will try again tonight.


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## 29erhoops (Sep 3, 2014)

randan said:


> Thanks! I installed the XTR M9000 rear derailleur and a SRAM X01 cassette yesterday but couldn't get it to shift properly down to the 10 tooth sprocket. I am using a KMC X11-SL chain. It was late yesterday and I wasn't patient enough to fix it. I will try again tonight.


I had an issue with inner cable supplied with XTR shifter, it was quite draggy. Replaced in with a Dura Ace stainless inner cable and lubed cable (full outer casting) - it ran a lot better. Also check derailleur hanger is straight, many are not - even from new.


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

here my XTR rear cassette :

XTR M9000 | eliflap

looking good


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

randan said:


> Thanks! I installed the XTR M9000 rear derailleur and a SRAM X01 cassette yesterday but couldn't get it to shift properly down to the 10 tooth sprocket. I am using a KMC X11-SL chain. It was late yesterday and I wasn't patient enough to fix it. I will try again tonight.


Cool - did you do any riding? Is shifting (especially to 42t cog) smooth?


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## randan (May 18, 2005)

Unfortunately I didn't have time to test it on the trails. On the workstand it shifts decent. I still got to adjust it a little bit to make it smoother but so far now it shifts down to the 10 tooth cog and in the 42 tooth cog without any problems.


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## randan (May 18, 2005)

Update: I did a quick loop on my hometrails yesterday. What can I say? I works perfect. Now after spending some more time in adjusting the derailleur it works perfect. It shifts very fast and smoothly in to the 10t and 42 cog as well as the other remaining cogs. And there is a lot less effort needed for shifting (compared to the previous XTR 980 lever/derailleur). I am using a KMC X11 SL DLC chain and a 30t Wolftooth drop stop ring and this setup should cover the terrain where I am using my bike most of the time.
I am a happy camper!


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

randan said:


> Thanks! I installed the XTR M9000 rear derailleur and a SRAM X01 cassette yesterday but couldn't get it to shift properly down to the 10 tooth sprocket. I am using a KMC X11-SL chain. It was late yesterday and I wasn't patient enough to fix it. I will try again tonight.


and which shifter do you have ?


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## randan (May 18, 2005)

The new XTR: XTR SL-M9000


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

mmmm .... 

seems very strange ... the Sram cassette have like 10 speeds spacing.

XTR cassette , so shifter and rear derailleur, is spaced like 11 speeds road ...

so 0.6mm less than Sram every step ...

but if it works , great !!


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## oaklandish (May 7, 2011)

Sounds great Randan. I'll be interested to hear how this pans out over time, and I am definitely interested in giving this a try on my next rig.


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## skyfire1202 (Jan 21, 2008)

Hi eliflap! Is there a way you can try your cassette on a bike with SRAM 11 speed (XX1 or X01) MTB setup?


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## rave81 (Mar 1, 2013)

Whata wrong with new xtr cassette it has only small difference from the xx1 cassette. Personally id to complete eith shimano 1x11 system coz shifting is better and component last longer. Im currently using race face tuebine cinch with xtr 1x11 with 36T in front. I got no problems climbing long techie trails. 



Xtr shifter, cassette and rear dee is $400 cheaper than xx1 plus you dont have to purchase xd which cost abouter $100.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

rave81 said:


> Whata wrong with new xtr cassette it has only small difference from the xx1 cassette. Personally id to complete eith shimano 1x11 system coz shifting is better and component last longer. Im currently using race face tuebine cinch with xtr 1x11 with 36T in front. I got no problems climbing long techie trails.


Well this is also a matter of fitness and steepness. Maybe you can ride 1000m of altitude on 20% steep trail on 36x40, but not all people are that strong. Actually i know only one person who rode everything on the middle chainring and if he had to shift on to granny - he would take bike on the back and run, cause he is faster that way.
I want 1x drivetrain and would rather sacrifice the high gears (as i never need to really pedal over 50kmh) than the low end.



> Xtr shifter, cassette and rear dee is $400 cheaper than xx1 plus you dont have to purchase xd which cost abouter $100.


On new wheels not necessarily. But still, value for money is completely a matter of personal preference. You maybe would pay $100 for 100g of weight saving, others laugh at that .. So YMMV.


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## rave81 (Mar 1, 2013)

Whn I started to use 1x10 last year I was struggling with 32T. So what I did I hit the gym and had weights training and 3 times a week climb with 32T and after few months I slowly changed the front ring to 34 and 36T. I like using 36T because I dont like over spinning during downhill. While climbing I now use lower the 36T on the cassette.


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## rave81 (Mar 1, 2013)

Has anyone tried xx1 chain with xtr m9000 casette?


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

rave81 said:


> Has anyone tried xx1 chain with xtr m9000 casette?


Is there any specific reason for this combination (e.g. xx1 chain being better in some aspect) or just a curiosity?


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## rave81 (Mar 1, 2013)

chukko said:


> Is there any specific reason for this combination (e.g. xx1 chain being better in some aspect) or just a curiosity?


I prefer using the sram chain because it has quick link that I can easily remove the chain when cleaning my bike and doing work on the drivetrain.

How do you find the shifting of the m9000 shadow+ with x01 cassette?


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## rave81 (Mar 1, 2013)

29erhoops said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I wasn't saying there would be an issue with fitting another wheel, providing it had the same DT Swiss (142 spacing) hub or compatible hub.
> Just as stated that I dropped another wheel straight in and no adjustment required to rear derailleur.
> ...


Im just curious how come you did go fully with xx1 or x01?


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

skyfire1202 said:


> Hi eliflap! Is there a way you can try your cassette on a bike with SRAM 11 speed (XX1 or X01) MTB setup?


no, sorry , i have not sram components


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## brmeyer135 (Mar 1, 2013)

rave81 said:


> I prefer using the sram chain because it has quick link that I can easily remove the chain when cleaning my bike and doing work on the drivetrain.
> 
> How do you find the shifting of the m9000 shadow+ with x01 cassette?


If I am understanding you correctly, a quicklink by SRAM or KMC(I use a KMC on a Shimano chain) can be used on any chain to my knowledge at least those for 10 speeds/gears.


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

brmeyer135 said:


> If I am understanding you correctly, a quicklink by SRAM or KMC(I use a KMC on a Shimano chain) can be used on any chain to my knowledge at least those for 10 speeds/gears.


better read more ... 

some KMC connectors are NOT re-usable

KMC Chain


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

chukko said:


> Well this is also a matter of fitness and steepness. Maybe you can ride 1000m of altitude on 20% steep trail on 36x40, but not all people are that strong.


I use 11x42 but at some level I wonder why we have this little obsession with 1x: is it partly wishful thinking? Using XTR 2015 you can have a dual with a way wider range than XX1/XX0 for less money ... and much more flexibility. Put in a 38 and a 28 and the 1000m altitude on 20% steep trail would be a no brainer ...


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## rave81 (Mar 1, 2013)

Davide said:


> I use 11x42 but at some level I wonder why we have this little obsession with 1x: is it partly wishful thinking? Using XTR 2015 you can have a dual with a way wider range than XX1/XX0 for less money ... and much more flexibility. Put in a 38 and a 28 and the 1000m altitude on 20% steep trail would be a no brainer ...


1x10/1x11 is not for everyone. the advantage of going either 1x10 or 1x11 it lessen the weight of your bike; faster to shift, lesser parts to replace, chain ring and chain last longer.

I prefer to use 2x10 setup but I decided to convert my 29er and 650b to 1x10 and 1x11 setup because I am sick of chain drop, chain getting stuck in between the frame and small cog.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

Davide said:


> I use 11x42 but at some level I wonder why we have this little obsession with 1x: is it partly wishful thinking? Using XTR 2015 you can have a dual with a way wider range than XX1/XX0 for less money ... and much more flexibility. Put in a 38 and a 28 and the 1000m altitude on 20% steep trail would be a no brainer ...


1) Cleaner, easier drivetrain
2) Free left handlebar (for seat dropper or dumper remote) - you can do that with 2x, but with 1x you can have levers at the bottom
3) Weight saving
4) Less chain slap and hopefully better chain retention

The only downside is shorter range of ratios.

And for flexibility - swapping chainrings should be rather easy - if i know what terrain i am going to ride ahead.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

rave81 said:


> 1x10/1x11 is not for everyone.


Interestingly, i do believe 1x11 is for everyone (well almost). For now, mostly racers opt for it, but i actually chose 1x11 with 26t (and would even go lower if someone made 24t narrow wide ring).

Recreational riders need lower gears much more than higher gears - so sacrifice on the high ration end is rather easy.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

chukko said:


> 1) Cleaner, easier drivetrain
> 2) Free left handlebar (for seat dropper or dumper remote) - you can do that with 2x, but with 1x you can have levers at the bottom
> 3) Weight saving
> 4) Less chain slap and hopefully better chain retention
> ...


 ... I am on 1x 11x42 so I am already "converted' ... but:

1) Cleaner, easier drivetrain: Maybe, not sure how much easier ... the 5' needed to st up a XTR front?
2) Free left handlebar. Seems much less of an issue if you are using I-spec, (and with Di2 this will disappear: one shifter controls front and rear)
3) Weight saving: Tiny-bitsy ... less then 200 grams when you compare carefully, and less if you end up needing a chain retention device.
4) Less chain slap: Disagree, you have more problems with single ring

and I may add as big pros:

5) Cost: a dual is much less expensive ...
6) Forget swapping! a dual gives twice the gears at your fingertips and bigger range ...


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

Davide said:


> ... I am on 1x 11x42. But:
> 
> 1) Cleaner, easier drivetrain: Maybe, not sure how much easier ... the 5' needed to st up a XTR front?
> 2) Free left handlebar. Seems much less of an issue if you are using I-spec, (and with Di2 this will disappear: one shifter controls front and rear)
> ...


1) Easier w.r.t. to less confusion which gear to choose (yes minor one, but still). I dont get the 5' question, can you please rephrase?
2) How is I spec helping freeing the thumb? Di2 sure - but that is probably not for the masses cost wise, or?
3) Agreed - negligible. But still less maintenance and less components to break, sometimes less noise.
4) I will ride mine hopefully within a week, so no direct experience. What i know that my 3x setup was really upsetting me since the chain was falling really often - so i will probably still get a chain guide for that. But it might be wrong setup on my bike.
5) Yes - unless you go with Di2.
6) Not really - most of the combination in 2x overlap - so you get just a couple of extra gears.

But dont get me wrong - i am not convincing anyone to do that, nor that it is a silver bullet. Everyone's mileage may vary. It might be possible that after riding it, i will find that it isnt such a good idea and will switch back .. we'll see. Just at the moment I find that option a very good compromise.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

I think he meant 5 seconds to set up an xtr front d.


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## brmeyer135 (Mar 1, 2013)

eliflap said:


> better read more ...
> 
> some KMC connectors are NOT re-usable
> 
> KMC Chain


Actually, the Powerlock(10 and 11 spd) are professed as one time use....even though many reuse them.
As far as I can find, SRAM doesn't want to pay royalties to have it classified as reuseable.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

chukko said:


> 1) Easier w.r.t. to less confusion which gear to choose (yes minor one, but still). I dont get the 5' question, can you please rephrase?
> 2) How is I spec helping freeing the thumb? Di2 sure - but that is probably not for the masses cost wise, or?
> 3) Agreed - negligible. But still less maintenance and less components to break, sometimes less noise.
> 4) I will ride mine hopefully within a week, so no direct experience. What i know that my 3x setup was really upsetting me since the chain was falling really often - so i will probably still get a chain guide for that. But it might be wrong setup on my bike.
> ...


1) I dont get the 5' question, can you please rephrase? _Yes, I meant it takes 5' to set up a front der._
2) How is I spec helping freeing the thumb? _It does not but it does free space on the bar. _Di2 sure - but that is probably not for the masses cost wise, or? _Yes, we will have to wait until it comes down to Ultegra price, that is XT, STX level ... but it will._
3) ...
4) so i will probably still get a chain guide for that. _You will need something, otherwise you'll get a lot of drops!_
5) ...
6) Not really - most of the combination in 2x overlap - so you get just a couple of extra gears. _It is more than that, overall range yes, you get 2-3 more gears depending on set up, but the set up is way more flexible you have two rings to play with ... you can look at it as having two 1x at your fingertips _

I am actually going back to 2 rings with my city/dirt-road bike. I have 40 x 1136 and I putting back 36 and 46, I am missing the high end too much and the lower end will be nice to have in the San Francisco hills!


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## skyfire1202 (Jan 21, 2008)

Can anybody who has the 2015 XTR cassette be kind enough to measure the spacing between cogs and the perpendicular distance between the largest cog and the smallest cog? I would like to know if I can use an 11-speed cassette with an XX1 drivetrain so that I could make use of my non-XD wheelsets for training with XX1. Thanks in advance!


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## rave81 (Mar 1, 2013)

Why not go for xx1. I just recently installed xx1 on my other bike while my new bike has xtr m9000 1x10. The shifting of xx1 is crisp and precise than xtr m9000.


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

i installed a Durace Di2 RD and XTR 2015 cassette

Flash Di2 11v | eliflap

they work.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Very nice! I'm almost tempted to ask how you did it but then I'd be spending $$$$ to do the same. Impressive.



eliflap said:


> i installed a Durace Di2 RD and XTR 2015 cassette
> 
> Flash Di2 11v | eliflap
> 
> they work.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

For me it's due to SRAM's one-click per shift and the paddle "feel". Too clunky mechanical. I simply prefer Shimano's trigger ergonomics.



rave81 said:


> Why not go for xx1. I just recently installed xx1 on my other bike while my new bike has xtr m9000 1x10. The shifting of xx1 is crisp and precise than xtr m9000.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

The double upshift of Shimano is a must!


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

westin said:


> Very nice! I'm almost tempted to ask how you did it but then I'd be spending $$$$ to do the same. Impressive.


no no ... not a bood bath ...

i bought single pieces ... spending some money, of course ... but not too much


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

And you can do it with thumb or index finger in a split second unlike SRAM.


ridonkulus said:


> The double upshift of Shimano is a must!


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Okay, I'll ask. Do you have a thread where the complete 1x di2/xtr build is discussed?
Can Ultegra di2 rear D be used?
Couldn't see where your battery was on the bike.



eliflap said:


> no no ... not a bood bath ...
> 
> i bought single pieces ... spending some money, of course ... but not too much


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

battery was a custom internal one ...

i have a similar one in my road bike, lasting over 7 months ( recharged only to be sure and to stay safe ) and over 6000 km ...

i have a special custom RD hanger , longer and backwarder

sure , Ultregra too

i removed a 10 speeds 7970 Di2 from that bike , 2x10, 36-24 on front and 11-36 XX rear


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

rave81 said:


> 1x10/1x11 is not for everyone. the advantage of going either 1x10 or 1x11 it lessen the weight of your bike; faster to shift, lesser parts to replace, chain ring and chain last longer.
> 
> I prefer to use 2x10 setup but I decided to convert my 29er and 650b to 1x10 and 1x11 setup because I am sick of chain drop, chain getting stuck in between the frame and small cog.


I'm a big 1x advocate and user but I have a hard time believing that chainrings or chains last longer.

You inevitably cross chain more than on a 2x setup and your chainring wear is isolated to a single smaller ring. Let's say you have a 38/26 2x setup and go to a single 32T ring--ALL of your miles are on a single ring and it's a smaller one than your big ring so there are less teeth to spread the load and wear across. There's a huge thread on here about people with SRAM XX1/X01 chainrings that are only lasting 250-300 miles. That may be a flaw that is specific to those chainrings but I have a hard time believing that you're going to get 1 ring to last longer than 2 no matter the circumstance.


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## rave81 (Mar 1, 2013)

westin said:


> And you can do it with thumb or index finger in a split second unlike SRAM.


Fair enough. I never used my index finger to change gears in shimano.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

rave81 said:


> Fair enough. I never used my index finger to change gears in shimano.


Interesting. My 10r old LX was only able to downshift by index finger - only this year when I got XT replacement i was surprised that you can also use thumb.
But after doing several rides on SRAM, i was really missing downshift by index finger (when it wasnt on the brake). I find quick index finger flick much nicer than having to do a "fishing expedition" for downshift lever with my thumb (but i admit i might be biased based on 10 years of prior shifting routine).


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Any news on XT 11spd coming any time soon?


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## TJay74 (Sep 26, 2012)

I asked the other day, I was told at least another year before we see XT 1x11, heck XTR 1x11 isn't really even in stock anywhere here in the USA right now.


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## ZigaK (Sep 9, 2009)

skyfire1202 said:


> Can anybody who has the 2015 XTR cassette be kind enough to measure the spacing between cogs and the perpendicular distance between the largest cog and the smallest cog? I would like to know if I can use an 11-speed cassette with an XX1 drivetrain so that I could make use of my non-XD wheelsets for training with XX1. Thanks in advance!


I would like to know the spacings too. 
I want to use a combination of 11sp gripshift/RD from SRAM and 11sp xtr cassette. I figure it's the easiest way to have gripshift and 11 speed.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

TJay74 said:


> I asked the other day, I was told at least another year before we see XT 1x11, heck XTR 1x11 isn't really even in stock anywhere here in the USA right now.


Bummer. Shimano road already has 11spd at their 105 level (equivalent to SLX for the non-roadies)


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## TJay74 (Sep 26, 2012)

True, but road bikes almost max out around a 28t for the Granny gear where the MTB are at 42t. It maybe a time thing as well, wanting to see how well the XTR does before they launch the XT line.


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## PerthMTB (May 2, 2011)

TJay74 said:


> True, but road bikes almost max out around a 28t for the Granny gear where the MTB are at 42t. It maybe a time thing as well, wanting to see how well the XTR does before they launch the XT line.


Maybe I'm just a tad cynical, but could it also be so they can suck up all the $$$ from people who just have to have the latest and greatest new ratio at whatever cost, then they'll bring out a more affordable version for the rest of us once the 'early adopters' have tired of it and are drooling over something else...


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

TJay74 said:


> True, but road bikes almost max out around a 28t for the Granny gear where the MTB are at 42t. It maybe a time thing as well, wanting to see how well the XTR does before they launch the XT line.


I'm not sure why cassette size matters, as they have done whatever research they need to do to make the XTR stuff. Now just make it with aluminum instead of titanium and be done with it.

Also, I think they already make 11-32 11spd cassettes for road. Just tack on a 35 or 36 and a 40 or 42, removing the 16 and 18, and they're done.


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## pressed001 (Jan 16, 2014)

moefosho said:


> Those cranks are sexy!


totally agree. sexy.
sprechen sie deutsch? >


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## hoolie (Sep 17, 2010)

Shimano dropped the ball, badly, for the 1 x 10 crowd that wants a 42 tooth cassette cog, and a proper rear Derailleur to wrap chain on small cogs, right? The RAD cage from ONEUP is a hit. The 16 tooth cog from Wolf Tooth is a hit, for smooth shifting. The 30 front, wide narrow chainring from Race Face is a huge seller for us with STEEP grades to climb. Maybe I'm wrong, in guessing the size of the market to sell to, but 1 x 10 is HUGE trend. Shimano could corner the market at XT level if it addressed all 3 issues. I agree that a 2 by 10 system is cool for racing, but those long fast downhill fire roads are the type of riding I avoid, as I hunt for singletrack for descents. No denying 1 x 10 is huge trend, if a 10 tooth small cog can be added, all the better. I am using XT 2 x 10 with 11/36 cassette, and 24/34 front rings (Blackspire super Pro). Only way to climb where I ride on 1 x 10, is people with 30 x 42.


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## hoolie (Sep 17, 2010)

I should add, I am a SHIMANO only guy. So I want them to succeed, and offering a properly stepped 42 cassette, and conforming rear Derailleur would sell. Wide Narrow front chainrings with clutch rear derailleur work! I've seen it a hundred times with other riders, and they love it. Sorry Shimano, Wide Narrow works without front mech. Thanks for posting that SRAM cassette with new XTR mech, that is a sweet setup for those that can afford it.


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## pressed001 (Jan 16, 2014)

I see 1x11 as a trend that won't last long.
I've seen the parts already hitting the used-parts market in such a way that it look like the serious riders have tried it, and are already going other directions.
I've got a 2x10 setup and couldn't imagine limiting my range any more.
I love the climbs. Not so big on the downhills.


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## matto6 (Dec 28, 2013)

Does anyone know how the chain line and cassette spacing works on sram and shimano 1x11? I know the largest ring is closer to the spokes, but is the spacing the same and it's one full ring added to the inside? 

I ask because I feel like I'm already cross chaining enough with my Wolf tooth ring which supposedly has a chainline of 50. If 1x11 (as opposed to 1x10) makes me shift more AND crosschain worse, this kind of sucks.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

pressed001 said:


> I see 1x11 as a trend that won't last long.
> I've seen the parts already hitting the used-parts market in such a way that it look like the serious riders have tried it, and are already going other directions.
> I've got a 2x10 setup and couldn't imagine limiting my range any more.
> I love the climbs. Not so big on the downhills.


I couldn't disagree more, what would they be moving on to? 1x10? Because that has less hear range and less refined than xx1. No reason to downgrade. Sram 1x11 is a huge market for the bikes that aren't FD compatible right now. Granted X1 is pretty expensive but at dealer cost it is close to xt, so on a new bike you can get X11 for the same price as XT.

I don't get why everyone is so set on the 1x10 wide range. It creates gearing comprises and bad ratio jumps. Even with the sram they just took 10 speed cassette ratios and added a 42t. When Shimano trickles 1x10 down to XT(probably in less than a year), it won't cost a whole lot more than new 10 speed stuff so that's why they aren't going down the route of a 11-42 10 speed cassette.

For those of you stuck on 10-42, if a 30t chainring and 11-40 cassette is too big of a gear you shouldn't be riding 1x. People are just drinking the 1x Kool Aid even though their fitness or riding style doesn't permit it.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

pressed001 said:


> I see 1x11 as a trend that won't last long.
> I've seen the parts already hitting the used-parts market in such a way that it look like the serious riders have tried it, and are already going other directions.
> I've got a 2x10 setup and couldn't imagine limiting my range any more.
> I love the climbs. Not so big on the downhills.


I agree, 1x will always be a compromise. You can set up a dual with almost as much spread in front as you want and have 20/22 perfectly tuned gears at your fingertips. The range of a 1x cannot get close to a dual using widely spaced chain rings. And if you do not care about mega range you can still have two closely spaced chain rings to optimize as you wish, depending of where you ride.

I just switched back my hard-tail to dual (still pre-historically triple derived, 9 speed, 30 + 48 and 1136 cassette) and I marvel at the fun that a really big gear gives even in moderate downhills!!!


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

ridonkulus said:


> I couldn't disagree more, what would they be moving on to? 1x10? Because that has less hear range and less refined than xx1. No reason to downgrade. Sram 1x11 is a huge market for the bikes that aren't FD compatible right now. Granted X1 is pretty expensive but at dealer cost it is close to xt, so on a new bike you can get X11 for the same price as XT.
> 
> I don't get why everyone is so set on the 1x10 wide range. It creates gearing comprises and bad ratio jumps. Even with the sram they just took 10 speed cassette ratios and added a 42t. When Shimano trickles 1x10 down to XT(probably in less than a year), it won't cost a whole lot more than new 10 speed stuff so that's why they aren't going down the route of a 11-42 10 speed cassette.
> 
> For those of you stuck on 10-42, if a 30t chainring and 11-40 cassette is too big of a gear you shouldn't be riding 1x. People are just drinking the 1x Kool Aid even though their fitness or riding style doesn't permit it.


I think he's saying people would go back to 2x or 3x setups. I'm sold on 1x myself but I think that's what he meant. I don't think anyone on 1x11 is going to go back to 1x10 because 1x11 wasn't good enough for them.

Also, I don't think that you create "bad ratio jumps" (plural) with wide range 1x10. The only larger than normal jump would be where the 17 is removed and by replacing the 15 with a 16, you make the jumps pretty normal. 11-13-16-19-21-24-28-32-36-40 (substitute 40 for 42 if you want). That way you just start the 3 tooth jumps sooner than normal.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

Alias530 said:


> I think he's saying people would go back to 2x or 3x setups. I'm sold on 1x myself but I think that's what he meant. I don't think anyone on 1x11 is going to go back to 1x10 because 1x11 wasn't good enough for them.
> 
> Also, I don't think that you create "bad ratio jumps" (plural) with wide range 1x10. The only larger than normal jump would be where the 17 is removed and by replacing the 15 with a 16, you make the jumps pretty normal. 11-13-16-19-21-24-28-32-36-40 (substitute 40 for 42 if you want). That way you just start the 3 tooth jumps sooner than normal.


Those 3t jumps feel like a lot. Personally I have the 16t and the 16-13 jump definitely feels like there should be a gear in between.

Shimano also spent the time to make this new group good. So you can see they changed the second lowest gear to a 35t for a 35-40. Just one example to show they are focused on smooth jumps. With 1x I am willing to compromise on gear range but I don't want to compromise on the ratios. That's why the new xtr 11 speed is just what I have been waiting for


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

pressed001 said:


> I see 1x11 as a trend that won't last long.
> I've seen the parts already hitting the used-parts market in such a way that it look like the serious riders have tried it, and are already going other directions.
> I've got a 2x10 setup and couldn't imagine limiting my range any more.
> I love the climbs. Not so big on the downhills.


You do know that on a 26" bike, 30x11 spins out at 19.3mph at 90 rpm, right? Toss on another 1.3mph for every two teeth you go up in front.

30x40 is the equivalent of 24x32 which is pretty low, 5.3mph at 90rpm.

CN: You're not really losing much with 1x10. Maybe if you're running a 9'er, but there's always the 42t option. Top and bottom end for a 30t sprocket and 11-40 on a 9'er is 21.1 and 5.8 mph, btw.


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## pressed001 (Jan 16, 2014)

Richde: I didn't realize the 11 speed system had a ridiculous 40 tooth ring! After further reading, it doesn't sound too bad really. I guess with the 11-40 you've still got some decent range. However, it looks like the the 2x10/11 systems do have better range, even if by a little, and a ton more gears to help ensure you're in the most efficient gear.

Alias530: Thanks, that's exactly what I meant. I was referring to going 2x10/11.

cheers gents


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

pressed001 said:


> I've seen the parts already hitting the used-parts market in such a way that it look like the serious riders have tried it, and are already going other directions.


What are you talking about? Lots of parts on eBay? There is always lots of parts on eBay.

Shimano is continuing to offer double and triple cranks for people that want them. How is your opinion about 1x relevant?


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## pressed001 (Jan 16, 2014)

I would think it is just as relevant as your questioning my opinion. Especially since we are on a forum posting on a thread about a 1x11 system.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

pressed001 said:


> Richde: I didn't realize the 11 speed system had a ridiculous 40 tooth ring! After further reading, it doesn't sound too bad really. I guess with the 11-40 you've still got some decent range.


Actually with XX1/X1 cassette you can even go to 10-42 - and i even found 44t replacement cog for that cassette (Ari Corone). Sure - it is still on the high end of the market - will be more attractive once cheaper options appear.
With 2x you still get better range - but i find higher gears very rarely useful so very easy to give up. I even plan to ride 22x10-44 ..


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

pressed001 said:


> I see 1x11 as a trend that won't last long..


Hahaha


pressed001 said:


> I love the climbs. Not so big on the downhills.


Hahaha. I predict that companies will overlook the needs of your small niche of riders who only like to ride slowly. They'll instead create products that will be popular among the much larger group of riders who like to go fast. Cuz fun = $$ and exercise can be done while watching TV.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

Lelandjt said:


> Hahaha
> 
> Hahaha. I predict that companies will overlook the needs of your small niche of riders who only like to ride slowly. They'll instead create products that will be popular among the much larger group of riders who like to go fast. Cuz fun = $$ and exercise can be done while watching TV.


Funnily enough, i share your optimistic outlook on 1x11 getting mass adoption, despite completely disagreeing with the second part.
Somehow i believe that mass recreational public doesnt care about racing hard - for them low geared 22-26x40-42 1x system is completely satisfactory (with advantage of less confusion as to which gear to select, chain falling, weight, FD setup, noise).
Racers also benefit from 1x although riding much bigger rings. 
And only very small minority of fast riders who need more range will keep 2x system. (if of course large cogs will bubble down the affordable component sets and wear will not be substantially worse).


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chukko said:


> I even plan to ride 22x10-44 ..


Holy moly that's low! 90 rpm's would barely get you up to a decent walking speed.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Holy moly that's low! 90 rpm's would barely get you up to a decent walking speed.


On 29er at 90rpm with 22x10 i should go 27.6 kmh - dont know about you, but thats far more than a walking speed. I can rarely see myself pacing more than 30kmh on the flat (and then i believe i can sustain 120pm for couple of km's).
I tried 26x10 this weekend and even on quick hardpack downhill i was still able to speed up (not that i needed it, was just trying), so i wouldnt miss out that much on 22t.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chukko said:


> On 29er at 90rpm with 22x10 i should go 27.6 kmh - dont know about you, but thats far more than a walking speed.


I was referring to the low gear (22/44), seems crazy low to me but if it works for you I'm not knocking it.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> I was referring to the low gear (22/44), seems crazy low to me but if it works for you I'm not knocking it.


I see now. Well yes - for some people granny gear is not worth pedalling - running is faster. I also push when the slope is too steep and long, but lower gear gives me a chance to ride it. Of course - getting stronger is always better - not always easy to achieve that.


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## skyfire1202 (Jan 21, 2008)

ZigaK said:


> I would like to know the spacings too.
> I want to use a combination of 11sp gripshift/RD from SRAM and 11sp xtr cassette. I figure it's the easiest way to have gripshift and 11 speed.


I am using gripshifters too.

Anyone?


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

skyfire1202 said:


> I am using gripshifters too.
> 
> Anyone?


I just went from gripshift to XTR after twenty years plus on gript shift ... there is no comparison, XTR pods are just in another class ...:thumbsup:


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

All I want is a 10-40 11 speed cassette. Right now I run 1x10 with a 34 chainring and 11-36 cassette. If I could get an 10-40 11speed I'd go with a 32 chainring. It give me more top end speed and better climbing than I now have. It would be perfect.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

^Not gonna happen cuz Shimano won't offer a cog smaller than 11t and Sram prefers the slightly wider range of a 42t to the tighter ratios of a 40. Just get X1 and keep your 34t ring, that's what I use and love it. On rare occasions I wish I had a slightly taller or lower gear but not enough to change anything.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Stonerider said:


> All I want is a 10-40 11 speed cassette. Right now I run 1x10 with a 34 chainring and 11-36 cassette. If I could get an 10-40 11speed I'd go with a 32 chainring. It give me more top end speed and better climbing than I now have. It would be perfect.


That's funny! All I want is an 11-42 cassette. We all want something just a little different, and it's a bit surprising just how limited the options are, considering there are about eleventy billion 10-speed options.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

Just ordered the XTR 11 speed group, going 1x11. Had to settle for the long cage RD for now, eta for GS cage is December. If anyone knows a source for just the cage let me know.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

ridonkulus said:


> Just ordered the XTR 11 speed group, going 1x11. Had to settle for the long cage RD for now, eta for GS cage is December. If anyone knows a source for just the cage let me know.


I bought from http://r2-bike.com/SHIMANO-XTR-Schaltwerk-11-fach-RD-M9000-GS-Shadow-mittellanger-Kaefig-228g - stocked. I bit slower support feedback, but if you just order, they ship quickly.


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## Hokidachi (Feb 7, 2012)

ridonkulus said:


> Just ordered the XTR 11 speed group, going 1x11. Had to settle for the long cage RD for now, eta for GS cage is December. If anyone knows a source for just the cage let me know.


Just curious, who did you buy the group from?
I've only seen the parts sold separately...

On a side note, I've just noticed that the Di2 XTR derailleur costs $607 on JensonUSA, it's insane!

Hoki


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

Bought the parts separately making up the group. Ordered RD and shifter from CRC and cassette, chain, and brakes from bike-discount. Seems like most of the U.S. Stores don't have anything in stock yet


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## TJay74 (Sep 26, 2012)

local dealer said they still don't have anything, word is all of the inventory went to the manufactures first, then once production catches up the rest will go to the dealers and warehouses.


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## rave81 (Mar 1, 2013)

Davide said:


> I just went from gripshift to XTR after twenty years plus on gript shift ... there is no comparison, XTR pods are just in another class ...:thumbsup:


I got both xx1 (which I installed 2 weeks ago in 650b) and the new xtr m9000 on my other 650 and & 29er bike both are high qualitu product. Ive been using shimano xt/xtr for yeara before the xtr m9000.

The xx1 in easier and faster to setup. I like the positive shifting and precision than my xtr m9000. I also prefer the 10-42 cassette than 11-40 cassette of xtr.

The shifting in xtrm m9000 is too sensitive sometimes if I shift in rocky downhill I shift more gear which are required.


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## awai04 (Jul 29, 2004)

Why not run a 11-42t XX1 cassette with the 11 speed XTR rear derailleur and shifter?



kosmo said:


> That's funny! All I want is an 11-42 cassette. We all want something just a little different, and it's a bit surprising just how limited the options are, considering there are about eleventy billion 10-speed options.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

awai04 said:


> Why not run a 11-42t XX1 cassette with the 11 speed XTR rear derailleur and shifter?


Because the XX1 cassette is 10-42 and not 11-42.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

rave81 said:


> The shifting in xtrm m9000 is too sensitive sometimes if I shift in rocky downhill I shift more gear which are required.


Do you mean when downshifting? Were you not accustomed to multiple gear downshifts with previous XT/XTR levers? Or is M9000 that much more sensitive than before?


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## awai04 (Jul 29, 2004)

Even better for increased range then, no?



ridonkulus said:


> Because the XX1 cassette is 10-42 and not 11-42.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

awai04 said:


> Even better for increased range then, no?


Probably doesn't want to buy a new freehub body, idk.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

kosmo said:


> That's funny! All I want is an 11-42 cassette. We all want something just a little different, and it's a bit surprising just how limited the options are, considering there are about eleventy billion 10-speed options.


You want that in 11 speed? Well - Shimano only introduced their X9000 couple of weeks back - it is not even available everywhere, so it will take couple of weeks/months before custom manufacturers produce replacement options.
XX1 isnt on the market very long and there already is 44t for it. While there is demand for top end new products, there isnt much incentive for them to push that to cheaper sets.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

awai04 said:


> Why not run a 11-42t XX1 cassette with the 11 speed XTR rear derailleur and shifter?


I wouldn't do it because the Shimano derailleur was not engineered to accommodate a 42t cog (or a 10) and it seems a waste to spend top dollar for sub-par results. Why not run the Sram 10-42 and use the derailleur and shift lever that was designed for it?


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## awai04 (Jul 29, 2004)

Some riders (as myself) prefer the tactile soft "click" of Shimano vs. the sudden "pop" of Sram.

Price may come into play also, as the 11 speed XTR stuff is coming out at a price point 10-15 percent less expensive than the XX1 stuff. Admittedly, the later may change as the competition between the two drivetrains heats up.



J.B. Weld said:


> I wouldn't do it because the Shimano derailleur was not engineered to accommodate a 42t cog (or a 10) and it seems a waste to spend top dollar for sub-par results. Why not run the Sram 10-42 and use the derailleur and shift lever that was designed for it?


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Shimano claims a 20% decrease in shifting effort, but it's just the slick coated inner cable that's different. My 980 with new coated cable and housing feels identical. In fact all my Shimano triggers in the past few years from "lowly" Zee to XTR feel very similar with new cable and housing; the throw is different, of course and for that I admit to liking XTR's ergo and shifting best.



chukko said:


> Do you mean when downshifting? Were you not accustomed to multiple gear downshifts with previous XT/XTR levers? Or is M9000 that much more sensitive than before?


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## rave81 (Mar 1, 2013)

chukko said:


> Do you mean when downshifting? Were you not accustomed to multiple gear downshifts with previous XT/XTR levers? Or is M9000 that much more sensitive than before?


Yes during downshift. Im not a fan of multiple down shift because it affect my pedalling effort. I thing the down shifting in xx1 is more efficient in pedalling. I also like the 5 upshift of xx1 very useful.

In terms of chainring wear. Probably I wont notice that with my raceface cinch turbine. I still prefer the metal than the carbon arms. Raceface chainring are tough.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> I wouldn't do it because the Shimano derailleur was not engineered to accommodate a 42t cog (or a 10) and it seems a waste to spend top dollar for sub-par results. Why not run the Sram 10-42 and use the derailleur and shift lever that was designed for it?


It has already been discussed above - many people prefer Shimano levers (4 gear downshift in one move, upshift with either index finger or thumb).
"Not desiigned for" does not imply sub par results at all. If the spacing is the same (which it seems to be) and the RD has enough range and room to move, there isnt much difference in which RD are you using. - people have been using 42t cogs even with 10spd Shimano cassettes.
But of course YMMV - everybody chooses the options which suits them the most - it is for sure not the wonder solution for everyone.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

chukko said:


> You want that in 11 speed? Well - Shimano only introduced their X9000 couple of weeks back - it is not even available everywhere, so it will take couple of weeks/months before custom manufacturers produce replacement options.
> XX1 isnt on the market very long and there already is 44t for it. While there is demand for top end new products, there isnt much incentive for them to push that to cheaper sets.


There's a 44t cog for XX1?

How would that go on, exactly?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> There's a 44t cog for XX1? How would that go on, exactly?


Check Ari Corone - there is installation and de-installation video.
But basically the largest cog is free - the whole cassette is mounted on top of the largest cog. Looks trivial.


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## mik8yu (Jul 25, 2012)

Got it installed the shifting to smaller cogs feel firmer than previous version xtr. Need to go ride it out to see


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chukko said:


> "Not desiigned for" does not imply sub par results at all. If the spacing is the same (which it seems to be) and the RD has enough range and room to move, there isnt much difference in which RD are you using. - people have been using 42t cogs even with 10spd Shimano cassettes.


Have you seen the (multiple) threads discussing how to rig Shimano derailleurs so they will shift OK with a 42t aftermarket cog? I'm pretty sure that Shimano would offer a cassette with a 42t if they thought their derailleur would work properly with it.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

rave81 said:


> Yes during downshift. Im not a fan of multiple down shift because it affect my pedalling effort. I thing the down shifting in xx1 is more efficient in pedalling. I also like the 5 upshift of xx1 very useful.
> 
> In terms of chainring wear. Probably I wont notice that with my raceface cinch turbine. I still prefer the metal than the carbon arms. Raceface chainring are tough.


I rode X1 back to back with new XTR briefly the other day. Granted, NOT the XX1 stuff, but the new XTR shifting stuff shamed my X1.

I also love the fact that the XTR can do double upshifts ("down" the cassette) and that once it's in first gear, the shift lever goes limp to let you know that you're out of gears, and it's up to the legs at this point!


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## oaklandish (May 7, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> Have you seen the (multiple) threads discussing how to rig Shimano derailleurs so they will shift OK with a 42t aftermarket cog? I'm pretty sure that Shimano would offer a cassette with a 42t if they thought their derailleur would work properly with it.


Those threads are about using older 9 and 10 speed rear derailleurs that are designed around a 36t max cog size. In this thread we are talking about the new 11sp XTR drivetrain that is designed around a max cogset of 40t. If, in those other (multiple) threads, they can get the older RD mechs to work up to 42t, then the 9000 series RD should only be that much easier to shift into a cog just 2 teeth larger than it was designed around.

My guess, is that Shimano is not offering a 42 because they still think 2x is the best solution. They have said as much. They clearly didn't want to make a new freehub body; this meant they could not fit a 10t. They also knew this meant a true wide range 1x system was not in their cards, and they decided against a 42t because it would only satisfy one end of the range spectrum. Perhaps they will rethink this when they introduce the XT11 groups, that are traditionally not designed for cross country racers. We can only hope...


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

oaklandish said:


> My guess, is that Shimano is not offering a 42 because they still think 2x is the best solution. They have said as much. They clearly didn't want to make a new freehub body; this meant they could not fit a 10t. They also knew this meant a true wide range 1x system was not in their cards, and they decided against a 42t because it would only satisfy one end of the range spectrum. Perhaps they will rethink this when they introduce the XT11 groups, that are traditionally not designed for cross country racers. We can only hope...


Not so much "thinkin" but simple math: a dual has wider range than any 1x once you use a 1140. (Just think 26&42 with 1140!) For 1x could have done 1142 and almost completely close the gap to 142, and they could still do that with XT. Or go 1144, without needing another hub standard. But fact is that pros probably do not need anything more than 1x1140 for cross country racing, and for the rest of us if you want mega range a dual will always give you more ...


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Davide said:


> Not so much "thinkin" but simple math: a dual has wider range than any 1x once you use a 1140. (Just think 26&42 with 1140!) For 1x could have done 1142 and almost completely close the gap to 142, and they could still do that with XT. Or go 1144, without needing another hub standard. But fact is that pros probably do not need anything more than 1x1140 for cross country racing, and for the rest of us if you want mega range a dual will always give you more ...


XTR 11-40 (11spd) is already 23% heavier than XTR 11-36 (10spd). I imagine an 11-44 would be pretty heavy.


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## oaklandish (May 7, 2011)

Davide said:


> Not so much "thinkin" but simple math: a dual has wider range than any 1x once you use a 1140. (Just think 26&42 with 1140!) For 1x could have done 1142 and almost completely close the gap to 142, and they could still do that with XT. Or go 1144, without needing another hub standard. But fact is that pros probably do not need anything more than 1x1140 for cross country racing, and for the rest of us if you want mega range a dual will always give you more ...


Simple math is irrelevant to what some of us were talking about. Personally, I am interested in a viable 1x system that uses the new shimano 11sp der and shifter but has a 10-42 cassette. At this point I'm not interested or need the greater range differential of the 2x, so the math calculations involved are going to be wasted on me. I may change my mind, bike or riding terrain in the future, so I reserve the right to change my gearing preferences again at that time.

I already said the shimano's XTR 9000 is designed around the pro XC racers needs; and I was hoping, that when the XT version comes out next year (or whenever) that they decide to widen the cogset to include at least a 42t for the rest of us non-pros that want a _1x_ system.

You clearly want a 2x. So go and have one and stop grinding on anyone that is currently interested in running a 1x.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Have you seen the (multiple) threads discussing how to rig Shimano derailleurs so they will shift OK with a 42t aftermarket cog? I'm pretty sure that Shimano would offer a cassette with a 42t if they thought their derailleur would work properly with it.


oaklandish already addressed this, but i will add one question. M9000 is a new group - cassette + RD. Can you really imagine Shimano is not able to develop new RD capable of handling 2 more teeth?


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

Alias530 said:


> XTR 11-40 (11spd) is already 23% heavier than XTR 11-36 (10spd). I imagine an 11-44 would be pretty heavy.


XX1 cassette is 260g, upgrade to 44t adds 12g. But this is completely irrelevant. I dont think the purpose of the discussion is to convince everyone to switch. I like the idea and believe it will be the default setup for the masses in couple of years. If anyone doesnt like it, no need to switch (and naturally it makes much more sense for new bikes, rather than upgrade). The more options are available, the better for everyone.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

chukko said:


> oaklandish already addressed this, but i will add one question. M9000 is a new group - cassette + RD. Can you really imagine Shimano is not able to develop new RD capable of handling 2 more teeth?


I'm sure that they won't even have to make a new derailleur. They probably built it with the intention to work with a 42t


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

chukko said:


> XX1 cassette is 260g, upgrade to 44t adds 12g. But this is completely irrelevant. I dont think the purpose of the discussion is to convince everyone to switch. I like the idea and believe it will be the default setup for the masses in couple of years. If anyone doesnt like it, no need to switch (and naturally it makes much more sense for new bikes, rather than upgrade). The more options are available, the better for everyone.


I just meant that the XTR 10spd is 270g and the XTR 11spd is 331g and most of that has to be from the addition of the 40T cog. Looking at the gear spacing, they made the top 3 cogs on an 11-36 cassette smaller by 1 tooth and slapped on a 40T. This means that unless they changed something else to make it heavier, the weight increase is from the 40T cog.

I don't think anyone would want a jump from 35 or 36 all the way to 44, so they would likely leave the 40 and add a 44, meaning another 60+ grams. Unless I'm thinking about this totally wrong, it looks like you'd end up with a pretty damn heavy cassette if Shimano came out with an 11-44. SRAM stuff is usually lighter (and in the case of XX1 vs XTR, more expensive) so I don't think saying quoting the weight of a SRAM cassette is entirely relevant.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm guessing if Shimanos new derailleur was intended to be used with a 42t cog it would be stated in their specifications, and also they would probably offer a 42 because then they could actually _sell_ a 42.

Y'all have fun hacking your $600 derailleurs and $400 cassettes, I'll stay tuned to see how it goes.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

Shimano cassettes are heavier for the pure fact that they aren't aluminum and they don't use much aluminum for a reason.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

SRAM only uses AL for the 42t.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

I'm pretty sure they have a big thing saying "machined from a single block of aluminum"


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

"4130 chromoly steel (cog cluster), AL-7075-T6 (largest cog)"


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

I stand corrected


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm guessing if Shimanos new derailleur was intended to be used with a 42t cog it would be stated in their specifications, and also they would probably offer a 42 because then they could actually _sell_ a 42.
> 
> Y'all have fun hacking your $600 derailleurs and $400 cassettes, I'll stay tuned to see how it goes.


Only the Di2 stuff is mega expensive. The non-Di2 stuff is $180 for the rear mech and $240 for the cassette. Ok, still not cheap


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Exactly. I paid $165 for the M9000 derailleur and $80 for the rear trigger. Sale with coupon. Same with the naysayers on XX1. I paid $250 for cassette, $100 for trigger and $190 derailleur. And that was at beginning of hype/craze/marketing push. Those quoting full bore retail prices just to make their own drivetrain and financial choices seem more valid is head shaking.



Alias530 said:


> Only the Di2 stuff is mega expensive. The non-Di2 stuff is $180 for the rear mech and $240 for the cassette. Ok, still not cheap


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## oaklandish (May 7, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm guessing if Shimanos new derailleur was intended to be used with a 42t cog it would be stated in their specifications, and also they would probably offer a 42 because then they could actually _sell_ a 42.
> 
> Y'all have fun hacking your $600 derailleurs and $400 cassettes, I'll stay tuned to see how it goes.


Not to pick on you, but...

Shimano XTR M9000 Shadow+ 11 Speed Rear Mech | Chain Reaction Cycles

SRAM X01 XG1195 11 Speed MTB Cassette | Chain Reaction Cycles

One also might need to convert their freehub body and get the rear/RH XTR shifter; but $180 for the rear mech is a far piece from $600, and the cassette above is $275. I'm not saying it's a cheap solution/experiment but apparently it _is_ doable and works.

edit: Looks like others posted actual prices just before I did. Sorry for the repetition.

Furthermore, I believe Shimano's "specifications" are written as much by the marketing department as the engineers. This has been the case for the last 25 years I have been wrenching on my bikes and including when I worked in shops. The list of "incompatible" components in Shimano's tech docs has always been notoriously long and incorrect/misleading and is generally referred to as a first salvo in planned obsolescence. Of course they are not going to admit that their new top range derailleur is going to work on a 42t cogset, because then you would just buy SRAM's instead of their 40t offering. Color me cynical, I guess... :thumbsup:

I could also definitely be completely wrong and your new XTR derailleur will explode within the first ten shifts of touching anything SRAM.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

oaklandish said:


> Not to pick on you, but...
> 
> Furthermore, I believe Shimano's "specifications" are written as much by the marketing department as the engineers. This has been the case for the last 25 years I have been wrenching on my bikes and including when I worked in shops.


Ha, pick on me all you want! All in fun eh?

A) I was using the higher priced components to emphasize a point, yes I am aware that you can get an 11-speed cassette for a mere $300 instead of the $400 that I mentioned.

B) I spent over 20 years wrenching in shops and lost count of the times that someone brought a bike in asking me to try and make their hacked drivetrain work. When I tried explaining that they were attempting to force a product to perform beyond it's design limits they would often say something like- _"Oh, it works, I read it on the internet!"._


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

I see now - i overlooked you were only talking Shimano. Personally i wouldnt mind +60g at all, but people who do, will consider benefits vs downsides. Easy to pick the weapon that suits you the best.


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## oaklandish (May 7, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> Ha, pick on me all you want! All in fun eh?
> 
> B) I spent over 20 years wrenching in shops and lost count of the times that someone brought a bike in asking me to try and make their hacked drivetrain work. When I tried explaining that they were attempting to force a product to perform beyond it's design limits they would often say something like- _"Oh, it works, I read it on the internet!"._


Yep, had my share of those as well. But, before the internet, that same dude or his "bike expert friend" used to say: "it won't work, I read it on the Shimano tech doc/spec". Sometimes it's worth a try; and based on the direction of this thread, there are many who are willing/wanting to do so. The truth will come out in due time. This is all still pretty much just hyperbole... until its not.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Ha, pick on me all you want! All in fun eh?
> B) I spent over 20 years wrenching in shops and lost count of the times that someone brought a bike in asking me to try and make their hacked drivetrain work. When I tried explaining that they were attempting to force a product to perform beyond it's design limits they would often say something like- _"Oh, it works, I read it on the internet!"._


Is that a wrong thing? Sure - people who do their research are usually aware of risks involved. If i still go for it, then i know there is a price i am willing to pay. E.g. using small rings i know i risk using too much torque on the hub body. If that happens, i will address this (new steel/titan body, more robust hub .. etc).
Wouldnt that be a godsend for you to actually have more work and sell more components to fix that (if you have income from this)?


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## TroubleZone13 (May 1, 2014)

Hi everyone.

I just wondering about something.
I want to buy a new groupset and XTR (IMO) is the best choice. (since i'm a Shimano fanboy).

The problem is XTR is divided into two type, Trail and Race.
Anyone here can explain to me what is the differences between Trail & Race?
Because XTR is the only Shimano's product that i never try.

Best regards.

PS : I'm really sorry if this thread is not for my question.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

Trail and race:

Race will be your 2x cranksets, because they classify that more as what a racer will use and more XC oriented. Trail will be the 3x cranksets which have more range for the trail rider.

Only other difference in the group is brakes. The race set lacks the lever reach adjust control to save weight.

Anyone else feel free to weigh in if I missed anything.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

^That used to be the case but now they are totally different calipers and levers. The Race doesn't have servo wave so a little less power and doesn't have the heat capacity of Trail. A Shimano rep told me the Race is really meant for XC now and would get cooked doing AM style descents. It is finally competitively light with Magura and Formula though.


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## savo (Oct 15, 2009)

Do someone know if the xtr 11s rear derailleur can work with a shimano road 11s shifter?


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## TroubleZone13 (May 1, 2014)

ridonkulus said:


> Trail and race:
> 
> Race will be your 2x cranksets, because they classify that more as what a racer will use and more XC oriented. Trail will be the 3x cranksets which have more range for the trail rider.
> 
> ...


So, it means i can't use 2x crankset for XTR Trail?



Lelandjt said:


> ^That used to be the case but now they are totally different calipers and levers. The Race doesn't have servo wave so a little less power and doesn't have the heat capacity of Trail. A Shimano rep told me the Race is really meant for XC now and would get cooked doing AM style descents. It is finally competitively light with Magura and Formula though.


Now i get it.
The differences between them is just on their brakeset product.
Thank you very much.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ridonkulus said:


> Trail and race:
> 
> Race will be your 2x cranksets, because they classify that more as what a racer will use and more XC oriented. Trail will be the 3x cranksets which have more range for the trail rider.
> 
> ...


XTR 2x10 cranksets are available in both trail and race, I think there are a few differences between them but the main one is that the trail cranksets are geared lower than the race versions.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm also curious about compatibility between Shimano MTN and road 11spd. Electric and cable, can an XTR derailleur be used with Dura-ace shifter and vise versa? With the electric I think I heard that there's some brains in the front derailleur that the rear can't work without but obviously that's not the case with XTR.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

The xtr race crank q factor is much narrower than the trail. Some frames cant run xtr race cranks even if it is a xc racing type frame.



TroubleZone13 said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> I just wondering about something.
> I want to buy a new groupset and XTR (IMO) is the best choice. (since i'm a Shimano fanboy).
> ...


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Any manufacturers make standalone 36T cassette cogs? I know a bunch make 40 or 42...

I might be idiotic in this suggestion but couldn't you take a Shimano 105 or Ultegra 11-32 11spd cassette, throw on a standalone 36 & 40 and take off 2 other cogs to make a frankenstein 11spd cassette for a fraction of the cost and easier to get ahold of right now? Would that even work? 105 cassettes are like $35, even the 11spd ones


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Got some M9000 waiting for me when I arrive home.

Hopefully the Sram 10-42 cassette and XTR mech is still working well for people? I want the range of the Sram but with the feel of Shimano.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

You'll get better chain wrap on the 10t with a Sram derailleur. The offset between the c pivot and pulley axle is much greater. Yes I like the adjustability of the XTR clutch but I wouldn't make the change just for that. I definitely wouldn't choose the Shimano derailleur just for a different "feel". The Sram shifter and indexing work and feel fine. I've never missed a shift.


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## awai04 (Jul 29, 2004)

Please do report back what you find. I am slowly collecting parts to build such a drivetrain in the spring time, and also for the same reason.



Rick Draper said:


> Got some M9000 waiting for me when I arrive home.
> 
> Hopefully the Sram 10-42 cassette and XTR mech is still working well for people? I want the range of the Sram but with the feel of Shimano.


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## Vissie2 (Feb 2, 2010)

I need to upgrade from the 2009 XTR group (44-32-22 crank) to the 11spd and I see that a 2x11 42-28 x1140 would be the best choice. The race version cranks, however, only have 38-28 and 36-26 options, which look not enough when it's going fast (just compare 44x11 with 38x11). For a 29er (bigger wheels) 38 can work, but on my 27.5 I am on the 44 a lot (especially when the tracks are not that hilly). One option would be to get the trail version (40-30-22) and remove the granny, the 30 and add a 28, but are there other options? Sorry if this looks like a stupid question, but we were out yesterday and a friend on a 27.5 with the 38 was having problems following because he ran out of gears....


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

awai04 said:


> Please do report back what you find. I am slowly collecting parts to build such a drivetrain in the spring time, and also for the same reason.


Just fitted a XTR M9000 mech and shifter and its combined with XX1 Cassette and change and a RaceFace SIXC 2015 chainset with a RF narrow wide ring. All working good at the moment, first ride shortly so I will report back.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Rick Draper said:


> Just fitted a XTR M9000 mech and shifter and its combined with XX1 Cassette and change and a RaceFace SIXC 2015 chainset with a RF narrow wide ring. All working good at the moment, first ride shortly so I will report back.


Ride report will be much appreciated. TIA.

Did you go long cage because of the greater range of the SRAM cassette, or does the mid-cage still cover things?


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

I went for a medium cage, seems to accommodate it fine.


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## Load (Nov 15, 2014)

Rick Draper said:


> Just fitted a XTR M9000 mech and shifter and its combined with XX1 Cassette and change and a RaceFace SIXC 2015 chainset with a RF narrow wide ring. All working good at the moment, first ride shortly so I will report back.


HI,
I am very interested too!
Once you have done this test, please write your impressions!
Thanks!:thumbsup:


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## herlsy (Jul 10, 2012)

Just got my M9000 Rear Derailleur in today.

When i installed it, the pivot seems very loose and has slight side to side play. Without a chain installed it just swings. I can't recall this on any other derailleurs ive installed. The bolt is tightened as much as it will go.

Video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/accddxlqqj25y37/VID_20141115_174922.mp4?dl=0

yay or nay?


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

herlsy said:


> Just got my M9000 Rear Derailleur in today.
> 
> When i installed it, the pivot seems very loose and has slight side to side play. Without a chain installed it just swings. I can't recall this on any other derailleurs ive installed. The bolt is tightened as much as it will go.
> 
> ...


Thats fine.


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## herlsy (Jul 10, 2012)

Rick Draper said:


> Thats fine.


Yeah still a bit concerned about the side-to-side play. I found an m980 xtr derailleur i had stored, that pivot was nice and tight. I'm going to exchange i guess.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

herlsy said:


> Yeah still a bit concerned about the side-to-side play. I found an m980 xtr derailleur i had stored, that pivot was nice and tight. I'm going to exchange i guess.


New one will be exactly the same imho.


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## herlsy (Jul 10, 2012)

Rick Draper said:


> New one will be exactly the same imho.


Yeah you're probably right. Looks like they ditched the circlip on this new one.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

For those looking to complete their piece-meal M9000 kit there is a 20% coupon at backcountry.com for the shifter: Shimano XTR SL-M9000 Trigger Shifters | Backcountry.com

Not the greatest pre-coupon price but for some it just may be the ticket instead of waiting.


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## herlsy (Jul 10, 2012)

westin said:


> For those looking to complete their piece-meal M9000 kit there is a 20% coupon at backcountry.com for the shifter: Shimano XTR SL-M9000 Trigger Shifters | Backcountry.com
> 
> Not the greatest pre-coupon price but for some it just may be the ticket instead of waiting.


...and you get a $15 credit.

If you go through activejunky.com you can also get another 13% cashback off of that.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

Ugh...have the cassette, brakes, and chain. Waiting on shifter and Derailleur from CRC, shipped on the 4th and still not here.


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## G-Choro (Jul 30, 2010)

Chain Reaction shipped me everything in my order but the shifter. Looks like they won't be in until Jan 26th of next year. I hope their in-stock estimate is crap and overly conservative.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

G-Choro said:


> Chain Reaction shipped me everything in my order but the shifter. Looks like they won't be in until Jan 26th of next year. I hope their in-stock estimate is crap and overly conservative.


That's weird, when I ordered it said in stock and order status is shipped.

That would explain the long shipping times.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

I thought about that and using AJ. But the $15 credit really does me no good off the top of my head, but "free money" is never a bad thing.
Performance Bike has the shifter for $89.99, but I get charged sales tax due to a PB being in town which helps offset the 10% team performance credit that I use upwards of several thousand dollar a year in free gear; I'm sure they'll have a holiday sale that won't exclude Shimano. Recently they haven't at least.

Before AJ the backcountry price is about $96 delivered.



herlsy said:


> ...and you get a $15 credit.
> 
> If you go through activejunky.com you can also get another 13% cashback off of that.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Pleased to report that after my first ride using a XTR mech and shifter, Sram XX1 chain and cassette and RaceFace six cranks and cinch narrow wide ring that everything works spot on.

Conditions were terrible, gritty and muddy but everything worked perfectly. I am delighted with the setup and I will now fit the same on my Solo.


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## G-Choro (Jul 30, 2010)

Have you noticed that the clutch lever on the derailleur seems likely to break? It looks and feels weak relative to the amount of force required to push the lever to on.


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## Load (Nov 15, 2014)

G-Choro said:


> Have you noticed that the clutch lever on the derailleur seems likely to break? It looks and feels weak relative to the amount of force required to push the lever to on.


Yes,at the moment i dont put it on the bike but the lever seems to break very soon.


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## Load (Nov 15, 2014)

Rick Draper said:


> Pleased to report that after my first ride using a XTR mech and shifter, Sram XX1 chain and cassette and RaceFace six cranks and cinch narrow wide ring that everything works spot on.
> 
> Conditions were terrible, gritty and muddy but everything worked perfectly. I am delighted with the setup and I will now fit the same on my Solo.


happy to read your test.
Very very well!
I have all the parts but I still have to mount them on the bike.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

Got mine installed this week. Next SL cranks, m9020 brakes, m9000 derailleur shifter and cassette.

Shifts super smooth, way smoother than the XT 1x10 I had and a little better than the previous XTR. There feels to be more defined clicks when shifting down but still keeps the Shimano feel.

One note is the double upshift only works from the thumb side, only single upshift works from finger side. Not a big deal to me but something to note.

All I have to say is the new I spec is genius! Stock the brakes come with a spacer for the bar clamps. That spacer is removable and the shifter makes up for the space and that is how it is anchored. Much better than just the bolt into the brake. Suprisingly this i spec gives more adjustability than before. Can move in and out from the bars and tilt close and further from brake. Will work for all possible places you'd want it I would assume.

Overall I'm very impressed with it and glad I waited out for this over the XX1. 

As others have mentioned the clutch lever tucks away when engaged but does feel flimsy when disengaging and there is noticeable flex. If it does break I think it will take a lot of used before that happens.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

G-Choro said:


> Have you noticed that the clutch lever on the derailleur seems likely to break? It looks and feels weak relative to the amount of force required to push the lever to on.


Yes its not like the old XTR clutch lever felt, it feels very light duty.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I just ordered XTR Di2 rear derailleur, shifter, and cassette for an upcoming project but availability date is a little fuzzy. Have any consumers received Di2 either aftermarket or on a complete bike? We've got a bunch of customers lined up waiting to hear if XTR bits play nice with Dura-ace bits so we're eager to get our hands on it for testing.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

>Got mine installed this week. Next SL cranks, m9020 brakes, m9000 derailleur shifter and cassette.

Based on this and a few other statements can we say with pretty good confidence that the new chain will work with standard 10 speed chainrings and front derailleurs ?


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Another 4k ft of climbing on the XTR XX1 bastardisation and its still spot on.


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## railleur (Nov 21, 2009)

*Thoughts on Non-Narrow Wide Chainring?*

Anyone running the new 1x Cranks?

Do you have feedback on the chain retention with the tall-tooth rings? I'm looking at putting these bad boys on my Nomad, wondering if I'll have to run a guide.

Also, this is sort of an aside... Anyone know if the new Shimano bolt pattern is licensed for aftermarket chainring options, in the off-chance that the big S's solution isn't completely watertight?


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Didn't see one. My machinist friend built a few based on the xx1 tooth pattern and m9000 bcd.



railleur said:


> Anyone running the new 1x
> Cranks?
> 
> Do you have feedback on the chain retention with the tall-tooth rings? I'm looking at putting these bad boys on my Nomad, wondering if I'll have to run a guide.
> ...


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

Rick Draper said:


> Another 4k ft of climbing on the XTR XX1 bastardisation and its still spot on.


Very cool. The cassette is the same spacing so it should really work without a problem. I read that Shimano says the derailleur is designed for 40T max but I hear there will be 42T Shimano cassette too not too far into the future so I am not so sure their state is much more than marketing.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

cbj2012 said:


> Very cool. The cassette is the same spacing so it should really work without a problem. I read that Shimano says the derailleur is designed for 40T max but I hear there will be 42T Shimano cassette too not too far into the future so I am not so sure their state is much more than marketing.


Actually i am running now Shimano RD with XX1 cassette with aftermarket 44t cog (aribike.it). Was a bit tricky to setup - on the stand, when largest cog was shifting smoothly, smallest one was a bit hesitant .. but under load it seems to have sorted out. I need to do more km's on it to have more reliable feedback.


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

If I really need some range I would rather got 2x up front especially with the new M9000 front derailleur but personally I do not have long climbs that needs anything like that.


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

@cbj2012 - Absolutely. That is completely a matter of personal preference. My only point was just to demonstrate that Shimano M9000 RD really can handle even that - not that i am convincing anyone to do that.


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

westin said:


> For those looking to complete their piece-meal M9000 kit there is a 20% coupon at backcountry.com for the shifter: Shimano XTR SL-M9000 Trigger Shifters | Backcountry.com
> 
> Not the greatest pre-coupon price but for some it just may be the ticket instead of waiting.


I got them to do a price match with Chainreactioncycles.com. The ordering has started. I still have to call the lbs to see what price they will give me. I can always send back the shifter I they can come up with a good price including installation. I will do XTR x1 with XX1 cassette. I was almost set on doing the oneup but I just don't want to sped money on a hack solution and rather invest in the future. I am sure this will last me a long time and I can still get some money for the XT stuff on my bike.

I only have to get E13 on the phone and get them to send me a driver for the Sram cassette.

So which chain KMC or Sram? Has anybody used the KMC X11SL?

Not sure which chain ring to get. I have an X2 XT crank which I am keeping so far?


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

I'm using a kmc 10 chain with perfect shifting on xx1 cassette.


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

Cool I have on already. I can use that if its long enough.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

cbj2012 said:


> So which chain KMC or Sram?


The answer to this question is always KMC.

Although I'm planning to drink the kool aid, and try the new XTR chain in the almost certainly misguided hope that the coating the Shimano is crowing about has a long-term effect.

A cheap gamble/experiment.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

deleted


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Something just occurred to me, is there any reason this wouldn't work?

If you're already running 1x10 with a narrow/wide chainring that is 11 speed compatible (most are), couldn't you JUST buy the right shifter, rear derailleur, and cassette if you wanted 1x11 from Shimano?

The cranks are the most expensive part so if you don't have to buy those and don't want to wait for 11spd to trickle down to XT/SLX, seems like a way to use your existing 10 speed crank and cut the 11 speed barrier to entry way down.


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## ridonkulus (Sep 5, 2011)

^^yes easily, basically all 1x chainrings are 11 speed compatible. I don't think this is very relevant though because I think most people aren't buying the cranks anyways.

I mean why buy an xtr crank when for nearly the same cost you can get a next sl? 

1x11 will virtually work with any crank so I think most weren't considering that a cost for entry to 1x11


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

ridonkulus said:


> ^^yes easily, basically all 1x chainrings are 11 speed compatible. I don't think this is very relevant though because I think most people aren't buying the cranks anyways.
> 
> I mean why buy an xtr crank when for nearly the same cost you can get a next sl?
> 
> 1x11 will virtually work with any crank so I think most weren't considering that a cost for entry to 1x11


I see. I built my bike up with 10spd XT/XTR the beginning of this year so I'm hesitant to spend more money on drivetrain stuff, but not having to buy a new crank definitely makes it easier to stomach. Rear mech @ $200 and cassette at more than that, ugh. Oh well, the XT 11spd stuff will probably be out by the time I'd wear a cassette out.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

That's what I did. I'm still using a 10speed chain with my XX1 and XTR 9000 with flawless shifting in all conditions.



Alias530 said:


> Something just occurred to me, is there any reason this wouldn't work?
> 
> If you're already running 1x10 with a narrow/wide chainring that is 11 speed compatible (most are), couldn't you JUST buy the right shifter, rear derailleur, and cassette if you wanted 1x11 from Shimano?
> 
> The cranks are the most expensive part so if you don't have to buy those and don't want to wait for 11spd to trickle down to XT/SLX, seems like a way to use your existing 10 speed crank and cut the 11 speed barrier to entry way down.


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## Load (Nov 15, 2014)

mounted rear derailleur+ shifter + cassette sram x01.
it seems that everything is working fine.
field test tomorrow.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

ridonkulus said:


> ^^yes easily, basically all 1x chainrings are 11 speed compatible. I don't think this is very relevant though because I think most people aren't buying the cranks anyways.
> 
> I mean why buy an xtr crank when for nearly the same cost you can get a next sl?
> 
> 1x11 will virtually work with any crank so I think most weren't considering that a cost for entry to 1x11





westin said:


> That's what I did. I'm still using a 10speed chain with my XX1 and XTR 9000 with flawless shifting in all conditions.


Is there any way a 10spd derailleur would work for 11spd? I imagine the pulleys might be too wide, but if those were swapped out would it work? Seems like the shifter would control the indexing/spacing. Would be great to just need shifter/cassette but that's probably too hopeful


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Alias530 said:


> Something just occurred to me, is there any reason this wouldn't work?
> 
> If you're already running 1x10 with a narrow/wide chainring that is 11 speed compatible (most are), couldn't you JUST buy the right shifter, rear derailleur, and cassette if you wanted 1x11 from Shimano?
> 
> The cranks are the most expensive part so if you don't have to buy those and don't want to wait for 11spd to trickle down to XT/SLX, seems like a way to use your existing 10 speed crank and cut the 11 speed barrier to entry way down.


Yep.

What I can see doing is probably waiting for an XT cable operated 11spd RD and shifter. Use the 11 speed XTR cassette and a NW 28t front ring.

I suspect the Shimano shifting will be noticeably smoother. The larger spread on the 10-42 SRAM is a bit clunky.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

XTR: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-27-31-35-40
XX1: 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42

I've always felt my XX1's "clunky" sensation came from the very mechanic non-smooth SRAM shifter feel more than the spacing. It's such a long positive throw/click.

Having said that Shimano's marketing of "rhythm and step" especially in 2x configuration (which this thread is not about) does make sense.

I ran a 32 with the XX1 and am going to a 30T which would allow more use in the meaty part of the cassette where both are 3 and 4 teeth gaps.



Miker J said:


> Yep.
> 
> What I can see doing is probably waiting for an XT cable operated 11spd RD and shifter. Use the 11 speed XTR cassette and a NW 28t front ring.
> 
> I suspect the Shimano shifting will be noticeably smoother. The larger spread on the 10-42 SRAM is a bit clunky.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

westin said:


> XTR: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-27-31-35-40
> XX1: 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42
> 
> I've always felt my XX1's "clunky" sensation came from the very mechanic non-smooth SRAM shifter feel more than the spacing. It's such a long positive throw/click.
> ...


Thanks. That was a usefull post - directly comparing the spread.

I spend a lot of time low speed, techie grinding up climbs. While it seems like shifting in that realm is not what is pushing R&D in the biking world, that is where I need performance.

Going from a 9spd to a 10spd was a great jump in performance when shifting under power. I'm hoping that Shimano's 11spd is at least as smooth as their 10spd.

SRAM's better low end is appealing, but I've got no need for a 10t cog and the accompaning spread between gears. Changing over my old King hubs would add cost and hassle to a SRAM move.

I'm hoping a 28t NW up front and a 11-40 out back will work. Maybe Shimano would also come out with a 12-42 in time. Back when they use to offer different XTR cassettes - one is a 11t, the other stopped at 12t and that one gave a tighter spread and smoother shifting.

Don't know about you but I've never seen the bottom three cogs on a cassette ever worn out.


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

Also don"t forget the new XTR front derailleur is a huge step in up in shifting quality. Its not like 2x is evil


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Indeed. I never had one issue with my 2x10. The new XTR front D is great but it fits limited frames. Thankfully mine is one of those.



cbj2012 said:


> Also don"t forget the new XTR front derailleur is a huge step in up in shifting quality. Its not like 2x is evil


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

I don't need x2 for where I ride plus having the left shifter control my Lev dropper is absolutely amazing.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

cbj2012 said:


> I don't need x2 for where I ride plus having the left shifter control my Lev dropper is absolutely amazing.


That alone is half the reason why am looking at loosing the FD.


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## Tyrich88 (Nov 13, 2012)

Ok So i see people have put Sram 10-42 cassettes with XTR 
But has anyone done the opposite? 
I am interested if the XTR 11 sp cassette will work with XX1.
I am wanting to do this to a spare wheelset since it's not an XD wheel.


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

Tyrich88 said:


> Ok So i see people have put Sram 10-42 cassettes with XTR
> But has anyone done the opposite?
> I am interested if the XTR 11 sp cassette will work with XX1.
> I am wanting to do this to a spare wheelset since it's not an XD wheel.


will try 23rd of december


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## Tyrich88 (Nov 13, 2012)

eliflap said:


> will try 23rd of december


awesome! Thanks

I'm wanting to have two wheelsets that will run without much adjustment if possible. 
If a lot of adjustment is required I will just suck it up and buy a sram cassette... 
Fingers crossed.


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

will be a meeting with a friend trying my XTR cassette in his bike


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## 6thElement (Jul 17, 2006)

Funny, that's the exact thing I was in here hunting for, to see if the cheaper XTR (HAH!!) cassette happily works with the XX1 derailleur.


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

I, instead, want to know if my Durace Di2 rd works with a XX1 cassette , now it works flawless with XTR


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Do you have a K-Edge cage on it?


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

no. a custom rd hanger , and RD9070 is same as road bike use , short cage (up to 28T maximum as tech notes  )


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## Tyrich88 (Nov 13, 2012)

6thElement said:


> Funny, that's the exact thing I was in here hunting for, to see if the cheaper XTR (HAH!!) cassette happily works with the XX1 derailleur.


Yeah I'm hoping to get a back up set mounted up like this for training and then extra race wheels. So if it will mount up with no/minor adjustment... we are in business!


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

For those that have used the XTR 1x11, I'm curious how light the action is at the shifter. The original XT shadow and shifter has very light and I'm hoping the 11 speed is the same. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

The 12 speed should be super sweet....when it comes out in 2020.
As for the 11 speed, it's not magical compared to my xt or xtr when the cable housing is new. I like the stroke of xtr vs xt, but it's not worth the upcharge. The 9000 series xtr shifter is mainly the coated cable.



thecanoe said:


> For those that have used the XTR 1x11, I'm curious how light the action is at the shifter. The original XT shadow and shifter has very light and I'm hoping the 12 speed is the same.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

westin said:


> The 12 speed should be super sweet....when it comes out in 2020.
> As for the 11 speed, it's not magical compared to my xt or xtr when the cable housing is new. I like the stroke of xtr vs xt, but it's not worth the upcharge. The 9000 series xtr shifter is mainly the coated cable.


LOL.
I had to reread my post to figure out the 12 speed remark. 
As long as the effect of the 11 speed shifter is no harder that the XT shadow non clutch, I'll be happy.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Sooo...if the XTR derailleur will work with a SRAM 11sp cassette...then the Shimano 11sp should work with a SRAM 11sp derailleur?


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## JTmofo (May 16, 2013)

What length XTR RD (Med or Long) are you guys using with the Sram cassettes in 1x10 set up?


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Medium


JTmofo said:


> What length XTR RD (Med or Long) are you guys using with the Sram cassettes in 1x10 set up?


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## _tarzan (Aug 10, 2014)

^Did he mean 1x11...?

Damn, yesterday i ordered a sram 1x11 set with xx1 cassette, chain and cranks. Shifters and rear mech x1. Today I found this topic by coincidence and now I'll try to cancel my order and change to xtr 1x11 with xx1 cranks, chain and perhaps cassette also. So the medium cage is the right choice whether I choose 11-40 or 10-42?

If xtr medium cage works well even with 10-42, what do you need the long cage version for? Why manufacture both?


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## skyfire1202 (Jan 21, 2008)

For 2x11?


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I set up and tested* a new XTR derailleur and felt that its reduced pulley offset resulted in much less chain wrap throughout the cassette range than Sram 1x. My comment was that it needed a steeper parallelogram angle (since the big pulley offset only works with a single ring), though that results in ghost shifts over bumps. I think it's a compromised design cuz they need it to work with single, double, and triple rings.I have had flawless performance from my XX1 group for a year and have found it to be the most consistent and easy to adjust system on the many bikes I work on at a shop in a busy MTB destination town. I don't get why you guys want to use XTR just for a slightly different trigger feel. For multi-chainring bikes it's the best but for single ring Sram 1x is clearly better. There's no denying that Sram's system of using a horizontal parallelogram and big pulley offset does a better job of tracking a wide range cassette with single ring (and it doesn't bounce).

*I tested a long cage model in 1x, 2x, and 3x configurations. In 3x the lack of chain wrap in the large ring and small cogs was scary. It wasn't even very good in 1x (compared to Sram) and in 2x I'd recommend using a medium cage derailleur to maximize the effect of the pulley offset.


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## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

Lelandjt said:


> ... I have had flawless performance from my XX1 group for a year and have found it to be the most consistent and easy to adjust system on the many bikes I work on at a shop in a busy MTB destination town. I don't get why you guys want to use XTR just for a slightly different trigger feel. For multi-chainring bikes it's the best but for single ring Sram 1x is clearly better. ... .


Not sure what to say, but my XT Shadow with XTR pod is amazing in single ring set up. I am no bike mechanic but setting it out by myself the results are "invisible" shiftings. I hear the click at the pod, and the gear (or gears, it can change a bunch with one stroke) are changed ... true that with a 42 rear and a pre-2015 derailleur one might benefit from a One-Up cage but starting next year it should not be an issue (if it is).


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

_tarzan said:


> If xtr medium cage works well even with 10-42, what do you need the long cage version for? Why manufacture both?


For 1x systems and most 2x systems, the long cage isn't necessary. The long cage comes in to play for 3x systems, you need it to take up the chain slack from the huge difference in chainring sizes on a 3x setup.


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## _tarzan (Aug 10, 2014)

Load said:


> mounted rear derailleur+ shifter + cassette sram x01.
> it seems that everything is working fine.
> field test tomorrow.


How was your field test?


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

For me it's more than a slightly different trigger feel. XX1 is a long throw with a very "agricultural" feel and you can only get 1 upshift per click. XTR can have double upshifts and the ergonomics and shifter throw is much smaller. For my fingers the XX1 year-long use was always a compromise and could not wait for Shimano to come out with an 11 speed that was compatible with my XX1 cassette.

I use a medium cage XTR. Shifting is flawless past 700 miles.



Lelandjt said:


> I don't get why you guys want to use XTR just for a slightly different trigger feel.


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## thehiredgun (Dec 14, 2011)

westin pretty much nailed it for me. 

I run SRAM on my Epic but Shimano on both my road and rigid 29r although I do run Shimano brakes on everything. Honestly, SRAM doesn't do a bad job but I just like the feel of Shimano that much more. SRAM does have a kind of 'rough around the edges' feel that can be something you want but it just doesn't do it for me all the time. Nothing wrong with SRAM again, just doesn't have the feel I'm after. I think the shape of the thumb paddle on SRAM is killer.

I do love the finger upshift and the double upshift function has always been an under appreciated feature.


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## thehiredgun (Dec 14, 2011)

Also, Shimano completely missed on the new crank for 1x users. Even a 2x user could find some compelling and lighter options. I really wanted to get an XTR crank but it's very hard to justify it against something like a RF Next SL...


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## Preston (Sep 22, 2005)

Has anyone seen the specs on what tooth counts Shimano recommends for the long cage vs mid cage rear der ?


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## thehiredgun (Dec 14, 2011)

37 and 45


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Preston said:


> Has anyone seen the specs on what tooth counts Shimano recommends for the long cage vs mid cage rear der ?





thehiredgun said:


> 37 and 45


I think he meant max cog size and you responded to max capacity.

Preston--I wouldn't think med vs. long would matter for max tooth count, but for capacity I've always been under the impression that short cage was for 1x, med cage for 2x, long cage for 3x. Shimano only has short cage on the Saint/Zee stuff and med cage will work for 1x, but isn't mandatory.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Actually I was interested in max capacity. I made the minimal effort to look this up just now and as posted the 37 and 45 are total capacity which I've always interpreted to mean (large rear - small rear) + (large front - small front).

Since the 11-40 means you have 29 tooth on the rear, that means with a medium cage RD that Shimano only recommends having an 8 tooth difference on the front. That tells me that I will have to continue using a long cage RD in order to run 22/32 or 22/34 up front. 

That doesn't entirely make sense though since their own triple ring is a 22-40, which means they are exceeding their own recommendation by 2 teeth if you run the triple ring. Which tells me you are probably okay with the mid-cage if you run a 10 tooth difference up front but might be pushing it if you run a 12 tooth difference.

KInd of amusing because right in the specs they say 10t difference max on the front, and then say 37t is the max capacity. Unless I am doing something incorrect.
(40-11=29, so 10t + 29=39t, exceeding the 37t recommendation.)


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## Load (Nov 15, 2014)

_tarzan said:


> How was your field test?


Very very well!
I have already do over 370 km and 6000 meters gain and change is always precise in every situation.
No noise and no hesitation.:thumbsup:


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## _tarzan (Aug 10, 2014)

Great! Got my order canceled and will make a new one with "Shimano 10-42" componentry.

Let me just get one more thing straight before ordering: If I want to use i-spec brakes with the 9000-series, the only option right now is the new XTR-brakes?


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## thehiredgun (Dec 14, 2011)

Correct. Only M9000 series brakes work with the M9000 shifters. Kinda annoying if you ask me. I wish I had been able to find a new I-spec II shifter when I ordered. Looks easy enough to swap for right connector in the future but still. Impatience can be expensive.


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## AZmtncycler (Jan 23, 2004)

Tyrich88 said:


> Ok So i see people have put Sram 10-42 cassettes with XTR
> But has anyone done the opposite?
> I am interested if the XTR 11 sp cassette will work with XX1.
> I am wanting to do this to a spare wheelset since it's not an XD wheel.


I've got this combination... XX1 cranks with 28 tooth chainring. XTR shifter/derailleur/cassette/chain. Shifts as smooth as my other bike with full XX1.


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## 6thElement (Jul 17, 2006)

That's still not sram derailleur with shimano cassette though.


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## Tyrich88 (Nov 13, 2012)

I'm waiting on news for that one too 6thElement


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## G-Choro (Jul 30, 2010)

Cranks aren't going to make the difference.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

I noticed the full XTR drivetrain works just fine.....


G-Choro said:


> Cranks aren't going to make the difference.


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## thehiredgun (Dec 14, 2011)

Troll... Haha...


westin said:


> I noticed the full XTR drivetrain works just fine.....


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I just saw something. 11spd XT will be available in 2015 and called M8000.


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## Jakerz (Jun 20, 2013)

Lelandjt said:


> I just saw something. 11spd XT will be available in 2015 and called M8000.


That would be really cool! IDK though, the only thing you gain with the XTR 11 Speed is closer ratio's, nothing at the top or bottom over a 1x10 IMO. And the main cost of the SRAM stuff is the Cassette ($259.99 for an XX1 on Ebay), you can also find the XX1 Derailleur on Ebay for $230 and the shifter for around $130 and the entire setup would weight like 1/2lb less than the XTR with better gearing, right?

Am I missing something?
Jake


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

The XX1 or X01 cassette weighs about 70 grams less than XTR9000.
XX1 trigger shifter can be found for about $100 and XX1 rear D for $200 delivered; I believe X01 is a few bucks less.

Weights are identical to XTR otherwise, at least my XX1 is to my XTR9000; I don't run the XTR cassette. I paid $155 for 9000 rear D and $89 for the shifter.



Jakerz said:


> That would be really cool! IDK though, the only thing you gain with the XTR 11 Speed is closer ratio's, nothing at the top or bottom over a 1x10 IMO. And the main cost of the SRAM stuff is the Cassette ($259.99 for an XX1 on Ebay), you can also find the XX1 Derailleur on Ebay for $230 and the shifter for around $130 and the entire setup would weight like 1/2lb less than the XTR with better gearing, right?
> 
> Am I missing something?
> Jake


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Preston said:


> Has anyone seen the specs on what tooth counts Shimano recommends for the long cage vs mid cage rear der ?





westin said:


> The XX1 or X01 cassette weighs about 70 grams less than XTR9000.
> XX1 trigger shifter can be found for about $100 and XX1 rear D for $200 delivered; I believe X01 is a few bucks less.
> 
> Weights are identical to XTR otherwise, at least my XX1 is to my XTR9000; I don't run the XTR cassette. I paid $155 for 9000 rear D and $89 for the shifter.


Personally I hate how SRAM feels when shifting. I'd rather wait, pay extra, and/or have slightly less gearing range to use Shimano.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

SRAM can't run 2 front chainrings - that is the important difference.


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

XTR 2015 + X1 = OK | eliflap

XTR cassette with Sram X1 shifter + rear derailleur + 10 speeds chain


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

Tyrich88 said:


> awesome! Thanks
> 
> I'm wanting to have two wheelsets that will run without much adjustment if possible.
> If a lot of adjustment is required I will just suck it up and buy a sram cassette...
> Fingers crossed.


done


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

eliflap said:


> XTR 2015 + X1 = OK | eliflap
> 
> XTR cassette with Sram X1 shifter + rear derailleur + 10 speeds chain


Sweet!

Going to wait for XT cassette (hopefully they'll do a 42T) to come out and run the SRAM X1/01 derailleur and shifter.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Jakerz said:


> That would be really cool! IDK though, the only thing you gain with the XTR 11 Speed is closer ratio's, nothing at the top or bottom over a 1x10 IMO. And the main cost of the SRAM stuff is the Cassette ($259.99 for an XX1 on Ebay), you can also find the XX1 Derailleur on Ebay for $230 and the shifter for around $130 and the entire setup would weight like 1/2lb less than the XTR with better gearing, right?
> 
> Am I missing something?
> Jake


The increase in gear range by having more gears available on the cassette is due to the ability to maintain close ratios through the use of additional gears. There could have been 11-36 7-speed cassettes, they just would have sucked to ride because of the huge jumps in ratio. Closer ratios allow you to ride quicker and more comfortably by allowing you to maintain your optimum cadence.

After trying a 42t cog, I found a 40t rear cog to be better because not only did the shifting quality improve, it was less of a jump up in ratio when shifting to the 36t. That's probably the same reasoning that Shimano used when deciding how to configure their 11-speed drivetrain...while maintaining backwards compatibility. Don't forget part of the price of upgrading to XX1 is the often ignored cost of purchasing a new freehub body.

Also, if you want to compare prices, don't quote Ebay vs. retail.


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## Jakerz (Jun 20, 2013)

richde said:


> The increase in gear range by having more gears available on the cassette is due to the ability to maintain close ratios through the use of additional gears. There could have been 11-36 7-speed cassettes, they just would have sucked to ride because of the huge jumps in ratio. Closer ratios allow you to ride quicker and more comfortably by allowing you to maintain your optimum cadence.
> 
> After trying a 42t cog, I found a 40t rear cog to be better because not only did the shifting quality improve, it was less of a jump up in ratio when shifting to the 36t. That's probably the same reasoning that Shimano used when deciding how to configure their 11-speed drivetrain...while maintaining backwards compatibility. Don't forget part of the price of upgrading to XX1 is the often ignored cost of purchasing a new freehub body.
> 
> Also, if you want to compare prices, don't quote Ebay vs. retail.


Oh yea, I wasn't trying to talk up the price of the SRAM, I was just saying that looking at retail prices on either system, sram or XTR, that the prices are unrealistic (retail prices).

I do understand the close ratio thing, I'm in the process of building up my first "real" FS bike and I'm going with the XX1 setup for the larger gear range with a 1x11. Having never really owned a geared bike I doubt I would be able to tell much of a difference between the two this early on, lol.

Jake


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

RS VR6 said:


> Sweet!
> 
> Going to wait for XT cassette (hopefully they'll do a 42T).


It will be 11-40. Perhaps in the future market pressure will force Shimano to do a 42t but for now they are taking the stand that it results in too big a ratio jump. They are trying to differentiate from Sram in this way and encouraging people who want more range to use 2x. There's some logic to this marketing strategy as you can see from this thread that Shimano proponents prefer the "feel" of Shimano shifting to Sram.


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## knottshore (Jan 23, 2008)

Currnetly running xtr 1x10 with either a 30t or 32t race face nw rings and a few sets of 26/36 and front shifter/der sitting on the shelf "just in case..." Well just in case has not happened so I am thinking about making the jump to XTR 1x11. Sell my plethora of extra chain rings, shifters, derailleurs and put it towards the 1x11. 

Primary Reasons: (I am open to suggestions and counter thoughts)
-like 1x10 but think the 40t in a 1x11 would be enough low end to lose the just in case 2x stuff I have sitting around- at least for my hard tail (I sold my fs because of limited riding time and too many bikes... But felt 2x was a better fit on my xc f/s bike)

-still like my older steel frame with 135mm rear spacing and don't plan on replacing it just to go 142mm right now, yes I could by the sram or Stans rear hub with XD driver for 135 but don't plan on replace my King or DT 240's anytime soon (both can go to 142 spacing have not really researched XD drivers for them) keep my current wheels,drivers and frame wirh no extra spendy $$
-SRAM vs Shimano... Hands down Sram has pushed the drivetrain envelope (thank you sram) but I prefer the feel of Shimano shifters (something some people notice and some don't) I am ocd and beyond neurodic so minor feel to some is night and day for me weather I like it or not...



Not sure what direction I will go with for cranks in the future but like some have noted with a 1x the only real difference is visual preference, bb compatability and weight-

Maybe it is odd to upgrade an older frame with new parts but I have been tinkering with 1x's, wide rims and bigger tires for years- while I nor many of us based on this thread... May ever find the Holy Grail of drive trains there are defintely more options available than ever before. I guess the crumodgens at Shimano still think they know what we want more than we do... Regardless of this most of their execution is very smooth and reliable.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Lelandjt said:


> It will be 11-40. Perhaps in the future market pressure will force Shimano to do a 42t but for now they are taking the stand that it results in too big a ratio jump. They are trying to differentiate from Sram in this way and encouraging people who want more range to use 2x. There's some logic to this marketing strategy as you can see from this thread that Shimano proponents prefer the "feel" of Shimano shifting to Sram.


I think SRAM can get away with things that Shimano would get absolutely hammered on. Things like no backwards compatibility and a failure to improve shifting performance. They probably also have different end goals for their respective 11-speed systems. SRAM sees 1x as the main focus, while Shimano sees 1x as a niche and just wants closer ratios with a push towards 2x. Which, as a 1x user, I kind of agree with because it really isn't for everybody or for all applications and will always involve a compromise between top and bottom end.

CN: Don't expect 11-speed XTR to be the same as XX1.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Nobody's got their hands on the electric stuff yet I guess.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Shimano said there are only a handful of XTR Di2 derailleurs out on demo trucks and stuff. They're trying to get one to me for testing. Production is scheduled for February. Interestingly they made an unspecified change to the cassette to work better with 3 chainrings. The M9000 cassette is now for 1x and 2x. The M9001 cassette is for 3x. XT M8000 will be for 1x, 2x, or 3x.


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## Tyrich88 (Nov 13, 2012)

eliflap said:


> XTR 2015 + X1 = OK | eliflap
> 
> XTR cassette with Sram X1 shifter + rear derailleur + 10 speeds chain


Thats AWESOME!


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

>Production is scheduled for February.

Well I guess that 1/19 date on CRC website is optimistic then.
Gotta admit I was already squinting pretty hard at the potential price when i realized I hadn't yet taken into account the battery, charger, bracket, and required display unit. 

RE: new cassette, just what this system needed, another part # ! hard to imagine what they would have needed to change unless they actually modified a tooth count on it.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

There is a 10% newsletter signup coupon and currently a regular coupon to make these xtr 11 speed components a great deal: Products Matching: shimano xtr m9000 - AMain.com


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## thehiredgun (Dec 14, 2011)

Also, PROBro tip, check out Bike-Discount.de. They're super cheap but delivery can take a while. From order to delivery, it was 13 working days. If you can stand the wait, I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them again. Don't expect great english communication. Nothing shady, English just isn't their first language.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Seems the likes of Performance Bike and Chain Reaction are cheaper (with current coupons) than Bike-Discount.de with quicker shipping.


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## thehiredgun (Dec 14, 2011)

Not sure that completely adds up but it might. I netted ~37% off retail after shipping not including tax savings. Either way, I'm happy with my purchase.


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## some dude (Jan 1, 2014)

richde said:


> The increase in gear range by having more gears available on the cassette is due to the ability to maintain close ratios through the use of additional gears. There could have been 11-36 7-speed cassettes, they just would have sucked to ride because of the huge jumps in ratio. Closer ratios allow you to ride quicker and more comfortably by allowing you to maintain your optimum cadence.
> 
> After trying a 42t cog, I found a 40t rear cog to be better because not only did the shifting quality improve, it was less of a jump up in ratio when shifting to the 36t. That's probably the same reasoning that Shimano used when deciding how to configure their 11-speed drivetrain...while maintaining backwards compatibility. Don't forget part of the price of upgrading to XX1 is the often ignored cost of purchasing a new freehub body.
> 
> Also, if you want to compare prices, don't quote Ebay vs. retail.


I've found the same thing in experimenting with OneUp 42 and 40th kits. The 42 made the rear XTR midcage derailleur unhappy and a bit too gappy with both a 34 or 36 tooth front in XC terrain. I'm much happier with the 40 tooth but wish I could get a 10 or even 9 tooth little gear to get more range. I thought the new Shimano 11spd would be the ticket since I can't stand any of the SRAM shifters, but for 1x riding I'm almost considering the conversion to SRAM because I want a little bit more range without having to change out the front ring depending on my ride that day.


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## Jan (Mar 8, 2004)

Preston67 said:


> >Production is scheduled for February.
> 
> Well I guess that 1/19 date on CRC website is optimistic then.
> .


They had some in stock a few days ago. The Di2 shifters are in stock. Also, bike-components.de has the rear derailleur in stock, but I think the price is better at CRC.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Cool. Mind me asking how/why you're slated to one for testing?



Lelandjt said:


> Shimano said there are only a handful of XTR Di2 derailleurs out on demo trucks and stuff. They're trying to get one to me for testing. Production is scheduled for February. Interestingly they made an unspecified change to the cassette to work better with 3 chainrings. The M9000 cassette is now for 1x and 2x. The M9001 cassette is for 3x. XT M8000 will be for 1x, 2x, or 3x.


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## railleur (Nov 21, 2009)

Got this reply from Wolftooth, I'm really looking forward to a full XTR group on an AM bike again... it's been a while! 

Edit: This is regarding Narrow-wide chainrings to fit the new 70* spider.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

There is one narrow wide ring currently available that fits the m9000 bcd.


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## _tarzan (Aug 10, 2014)

Those XTR 1x11's with XX1 cassette still running smoothly?

Got my "new" (used) frame this week and need to decide on shifter and derailleur this weekend so I can start building my unicorn. Everything else is ready to go.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Not to be a jerk, but why would the 9000/xx1 combo not be running smoothly after months of successful use from multiple riders? It's a pass/fail type of situation. It works perfectly.



_tarzan said:


> Those XTR 1x11's with XX1 cassette still running smoothly?
> 
> Got my "new" (used) frame this week and need to decide on shifter and derailleur this weekend so I can start building my unicorn. Everything else is ready to go.


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## thehiredgun (Dec 14, 2011)

Fair point, Westin. Maybe just being conservative?


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## matto6 (Dec 28, 2013)

westin said:


> Not to be a jerk, but why would the 9000/xx1 combo not be running smoothly after months of successful use from multiple riders? It's a pass/fail type of situation. It works perfectly.


Just double checking whether there are any new behaviors or problems observed since the early reports?

I was interested to hear if people were still happy with this setup too. I'm very glad to hear that they are!


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

I'm Also glad to hear that. My new fat bike build will have that setup.


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## dreys (Jan 21, 2014)

_tarzan said:


> Those XTR 1x11's with XX1 cassette still running smoothly?
> 
> Got my "new" (used) frame this week and need to decide on shifter and derailleur this weekend so I can start building my unicorn. Everything else is ready to go.


Running as smooth as on day one.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

westin said:


> Cool. Mind me asking how/why you're slated to one for testing?


I'm a designer for Santana Tandems. We have a long, close relationship with Shimano and they recognize that there are some unique aspects to our use that require us to test their parts before we can be sure that they'll work on our bikes so a Shimano rep said he'll try to get me a rear derailleur ahead of the planned release. The biggest issue I have to figure out is getting it to work with Dura-ace shifters and front derailleur. We've got a lot of customers who want to go electric and ditch their triples without giving up a low gear so we're hoping to do a Dura-ace/XTR Di2 11-40, 34/50 drivetrain.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Lelandjt said:


> I'm a designer for Santana Tandems. We have a long, close relationship with Shimano and they recognize that there are some unique aspects to our use that require us to test their parts before we can be sure that they'll work on our bikes so a Shimano rep said he'll try to get me a rear derailleur ahead of the planned release. The biggest issue I have to figure out is getting it to work with Dura-ace shifters and front derailleur. We've got a lot of customers who want to go electric and ditch their triples without giving up a low gear so we're hoping to do a Dura-ace/XTR Di2 11-40, 34/50 drivetrain.


XTR M9050 is out in the UK, how long until its out in the USA?


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Lelandjt said:


> I'm a designer for Santana Tandems......... We've got a lot of customers who want to go electric and ditch their triples without giving up a low gear so we're hoping to do a Dura-ace/XTR Di2 11-40, 34/50 drivetrain.


And that is when my wife and I will replace our old, but trusty, Santana Sovereign.

Wrong forum, but stoked to hear this!

Any guesses on timing?


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

^"Out" as in customers have bought it and have it in hand? Shimano says the first production run isn't done yet and only a few pre-productions demo examples are floating around.

If everything works fine we can start selling XTR/Dura-ace Di2 Santanas right away. However, I'm not sure it's going to be that simple. It sounds like the XTR rear derailleur and Dura-ace/Ultegra front derailleurs might not play together. No one is sure yet so that's why I'm trying to get a sample as soon as possible to test. We'll make it happen but there's a chance we'll have to work with Shimano on custom programming which could take a while.


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## randan (May 18, 2005)

XTR Di2 is available altough very limited at the moment. I received my rear Di2 rear derailleur, shifter and display from Chainreaction Cycles before Christmas (I preordered it last July...). I will running it 1x11.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Lelandjt said:


> ^"Out" as in customers have bought it and have it in hand? Shimano says the first production run isn't done yet and only a few pre-productions demo examples are floating around.


Yes out as in on bikes and working. CRC and others have had all the items in stock too at points although CRC are sold out of some parts now.

Id check that close relationship you have with shimano


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

randan said:


> XTR Di2 is available altough very limited at the moment. I received my rear Di2 rear derailleur, shifter and display from Chainreaction Cycles before Christmas (I preordered it last July...). I will running it 1x11.


In the US where I live, most stores (like JensonUSA) say it'll be late February.

Some parts are available at Chain Reaction Cycles now, but not all. I ordered in December and recently received the Di2 display and right shifter. The medium cage rear derailleur was in stock but now sold out until the end of January. The long cage and front derailleur are coming in stock on Jan 19, which is what I need for my 3x11 setup. The 3X crank I need will come in stock on Jan 29.

Chain Reaction doesn't have a lot of other items like batteries, the external battery holder, and limited selection of cables, but they are in stock at other USA stores.


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## velojonthan (Feb 10, 2013)

Will bolt this on tonight and do a ride tomorrow morning. All my coworkers were glad to see the postman come with this as they were all pretty tired of hearing me talk about it.


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## Dave M (Mar 7, 2013)

Has anybody received a Shimano XTR M9020 crank set yet, 1X?

DM


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Rick Draper said:


> XTR M9050 is out in the UK, how long until its out in the USA?


Just talked to my guy at Shimano America. He said Shimano Europe (or maybe UK) got a small shipment of XTR Di2 bits (he doesn't know how) and is aware that some American buyers have gotten them through UK online retailers. He's not pleased about that considering Shimano America is still looking at a mid February date that "might get delayed some".


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Lelandjt said:


> Just talked to my guy at Shimano America. He said Shimano Europe (or maybe UK) got a small shipment of XTR Di2 bits (he doesn't know how) and is aware that some American buyers have gotten them through UK online retailers. He's not pleased about that considering Shimano America is still looking at a mid February date that "might get delayed some".


CRC are such a massive beast now, with the buying power they have I bet they can get what they want when the want it pretty much. Even some smaller independents have had stock too. I would guess the UK will have more stock before its even hit the US distributor.

Video of it here on a custom painted Solo:

Post by Soho Bikes.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

It doesn't have anything to do with CRC being big. It's the distribution network. Somehow Shimano Europe (or UK) got a small shipment of XTR Di2 well before Shimano America. No explanation from Shimano Japan on why and I bet Shimano America is pressing to make sure no more gets to Europe before they get some. They have a responsibility to all the American based huge retailers who don't like that their customers are able to get something from Europe that they can't sell yet.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Lelandjt said:


> It doesn't have anything to do with CRC being big. It's the distribution network. Somehow Shimano Europe (or UK) got a small shipment of XTR Di2 well before Shimano America. No explanation from Shimano Japan on why and I bet Shimano America is pressing to make sure no more gets to Europe before they get some. They have a responsibility to all the American based huge retailers who don't like that their customers are able to get something from Europe that they can't sell yet.


Wiggle still have stock of stuff and quite a bit too and the fact CRC had covered back orders and then placed it onto general open sale leads me to believe this was far more than the small shipment you are been told it was! CRC are expecting more stock of everything on the 02/02 so we will see if they get it, my money is on it all turning up. Some of the German places have it in stock too.

Just been looking and its out in Hong Kong too so its not a European/UK issue.

IIRC it was exactly the same with the Dura Ace Di2 released, all the European places had stock far before the USA.

People buy it from CRC as its less than most places in America can buy stuff for, the same for bike shops in the UK. Here is a article about the US lot kicking up a fuss about how cheap places like CRC, Wiggle etc are knocking out shimano stuff at.

Shimano to slash number of North American distributors | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News


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## cxboy (Sep 7, 2013)

Question...Can I use the 9000 rear del with my 10 speed seat up...same throw as the 10 speed r.d. ??


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## quote (Aug 11, 2012)

So I went into the local shop to price out xx1 and they talked me into the XTR set which I never researched. I ended up buying everything except the cranks.

Right now I'm running a XT crank and a 34t wolf tooth. Will this all work together pretty well?


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

Yes it will.



quote said:


> Right now I'm running a XT crank and a 34t wolf tooth. Will this all work together pretty well?


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## quote (Aug 11, 2012)

Do they make a I-Spec B adapter for the XTR shifter? I bought them with the clamp style but would love to do I-Spec instead. I looked around and didn't see anything.

(North America)


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

cxboy said:


> Question...Can I use the 9000 rear del with my 10 speed seat up...same throw as the 10 speed r.d. ??


No. Different cable pull per shift. 11spd MTN and road shifters/derailleurs have a unique cable pull from each other and all previous groups.


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## 6thElement (Jul 17, 2006)

6thElement said:


> Funny, that's the exact thing I was in here hunting for, to see if the cheaper XTR (HAH!!) cassette happily works with the XX1 derailleur.


I can also confirm SRAM drivetrain, XX1 shifter, X01 derailleur working great with Shimano XTR cassette and chain.

Lets me use a normal freehub and a cheaper cassette with Ti cogs so it will last longer too.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

6thElement said:


> I can also confirm SRAM drivetrain, XX1 shifter, X01 derailleur working great with Shimano XTR cassette and chain.
> 
> Lets me use a normal freehub and a cheaper cassette with Ti cogs so it will last longer too.


The top sprocket is still alloy just like Sram I am lead to believe.


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## 6thElement (Jul 17, 2006)

It is, but I'll almost never be in that gear or the one below it.

I was running 32/22 with an 11-34 cassette on this bike and can cope fine with never using the 22T at everything local to me. The last time I used the 22 was 50 miles into the Park City P2P last year when my legs started to get tired. Now I'm running a 30T up front so the top couple of cogs will be mountain bailout only.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

A sram cassette overall is more durable than the XTR as the titanium sprockets will wear faster than the steel on the sram.


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## Tyrich88 (Nov 13, 2012)

Rick Draper said:


> A sram cassette overall is more durable than the XTR as the titanium sprockets will wear faster than the steel on the sram.


It's also a lot more expensive. 
I'll take the trade since it will be for a spare wheelset haha.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

That's good news. Looking forward to running a 22/34 with a SRAM cassette and having a full range of gears. 40t is actually a slightly better choice but having the 10t on the bottom really opens up the range, and having the 42t will allow staying on the big ring longer.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

New m9000 cassettes are $205-$250 usd. About same as a 10-42.



Tyrich88 said:


> It's also a lot more expensive.
> I'll take the trade since it will be for a spare wheelset haha.


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## Tyrich88 (Nov 13, 2012)

westin said:


> New m9000 cassettes are $205-$250 usd. About same as a 10-42.


add in that XD driver hub...


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## 6thElement (Jul 17, 2006)

XTR was ~$190 shipped from Evans. X01 are ~$250 from ebay.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

6thElement said:


> XTR was ~$190 shipped from Evans. X01 are ~$250 from ebay.


Evans is doing quite well shipping shimano to States for crazy good prices!!


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

If the Dollar keeps rising its only going to get better. I just got a set of XTR trail pedals from Merlin Cycles for $106.


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## G-Choro (Jul 30, 2010)

cbj2012 said:


> If the Dollar keeps rising its only going to get better. I just got a set of XTR trail pedals from Merlin Cycles for $106.


I'm seeing the same thing. Just picked up the m9000 race pedals for $84 from Merlin


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

Damn prices are still dropping. I should have waited to buy later on. Rear derailleur is down to 157.

Some of the UK web shops have not adjusted their prices down though with the stronger Dollar.


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## wetpaint (Sep 7, 2009)

6thElement said:


> XTR was ~$190 shipped from Evans. X01 are ~$250 from ebay.


Their prices are amazing. I was going to keep my fatbike 1x10, but I love the feel of M9000 on my mountain bike, ended up getting another group for my fat bike. It so cheap I couldn't pass it up from Evan's Cycle


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## G-Choro (Jul 30, 2010)

cbj2012 said:


> Damn prices are still dropping. I should have waited to buy later on. Rear derailleur is down to 157.
> 
> Some of the UK web shops have not adjusted their prices down though with the stronger Dollar.


Don't look now, but Evans has the derailleur for $150!


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

Damn between right shifter and derailleur its in total 60 Dollars cheaper than when I bought it before Christmas.


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

cbj2012 said:


> Damn between right shifter and derailleur its in total 60 Dollars cheaper than when I bought it before Christmas.


That's the price of the early adopter.

I'm seeing some prices come down a little for the Di2 components. Evans has much better prices than Chain Reaction Cycles, but Evans only lists half the items I need whereas CRC lists most everything (some on back order).


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

Of course I had just not expected to have to do exchange rate speculation with my mountain bike purchases.


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## thehiredgun (Dec 14, 2011)

Really for me though, I love not spending money as much as if not more than anyone. That being said, I love my XTR and while we could've saved some pennies, I just think of it as now if I break something, it will cost less to replace. may even upgrade some other bikes up to the new stuff as the season progresses.

Basically, I'm OK with the Early Adopter Tax. Fair point though.


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## What&son (Jan 13, 2004)

Not sure if has been mentioned before, but electronic shifting may very well be the end of pull ratios incompatibility. It should be easy: Just "tell" the derailleur and shifter units over which cassete they have to move, and they adjust the movement to match it. I bet shimano won´t like the idea, since they are rather against compatibility btwn parts, but sounds doable...It wouldn´t surprise me if someone is already working on an aftermarket electronic shifter to do that. What do you think?


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

What&son said:


> Not sure if has been mentioned before, but electronic shifting may very well be the end of pull ratios incompatibility. It should be easy: Just "tell" the derailleur and shifter units over which cassete they have to move, and they adjust the movement to match it. I bet shimano won´t like the idea, since they are rather against compatibility btwn parts, but sounds doable...It wouldn´t surprise me if someone is already working on an aftermarket electronic shifter to do that. What do you think?


Even better--firmware update.

Still might not work for something like 10 spd vs 11 spd since the pivot won't be the same


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

Riding 1x and thus no front derailleur I think Di2 lose a lot of its appeal over the simplicity of the cable actuated XTR and the much better price point. You also still have brake and remote dropper cable so you can't get the same clean setup as you can on a road bike anyway.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

westin said:


> Evans is doing quite well shipping shimano to States for crazy good prices!!


Anyone know how long shipping times to the USA usually are with Evans?

I ordered XTR cassette/shifter/derailleur yesterday from them. I found a thread on another forum about them saying it was horribly long but the thread was 4 years old, hopefully they've improved!


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

Onces it dropped off to the shipper is should not take more than a week.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

cbj2012 said:


> Onces it dropped off to the shipper is should not take more than a week.


My cassette/derailleur shipped but the shifter is coming from another warehouse and says it'll take an additional 5-7 days


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

Oh well not a bad price to pay for some amazing pricing 

Glass is half full!


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

Rick Draper said:


> CRC are expecting more stock of everything on the 02/02 so we will see if they get it, my money is on it all turning up.


CRC have had stock of everything again this past week so they are seeing plenty of it.


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## Eastcoastroots (Mar 23, 2014)

This is getting complicated so thought I would ask here. I currently have full 2x10 SLX drivetrain on 2014 bike. I would like to switch to a 1x11 setup on the cheap, just to try out the gearing, and if I like it I can evaluate switching everything over next year. So:

1) Will XTR rear 11-speed shifter attach to my existing SLX brakes? I hear there can be some backwards compatibility problems with Shimano gear. 

2) Do I need to get new shifter cables if I upgrade to the XTR 11-sp shifter?

3) Is my existing SLX derailleur fine to use with the XTR 11-sp shifter? (I have a OneUp RADr cage.) 

4) I will like get Ikomar's 42t cog for an XT cassette - but if I sourced a SRAM 10-42 cassette, would that work with XTR shifter & SLX derailleur? (Knowing that I will also need the XD freehub & possibly a new wheel, etc.)

Many thanks all.


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## dreys (Jan 21, 2014)

Eastcoastroots said:


> This is getting complicated so thought I would ask here. I currently have full 2x10 SLX drivetrain on 2014 bike. I would like to switch to a 1x11 setup on the cheap, just to try out the gearing, and if I like it I can evaluate switching everything over next year. So:
> 
> 1) Will XTR rear 11-speed shifter attach to my existing SLX brakes? I hear there can be some backwards compatibility problems with Shimano gear.
> 
> ...


1) No
2) No
3) No
4) No

You're missing the part that 11-speed cassette has 11 cogs. As such, you cannot use 10 speed shifter or derailleur with 11 speed cassette.

You can mix some 11-speed parts between SRAM and SHIMANO (cassette + shifter / derailleur combo), but you cannot mix 11 speed parts with 10-speed components.

Hope this helps!


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## G-Choro (Jul 30, 2010)

Eastcoastroots said:


> This is getting complicated so thought I would ask here. I currently have full 2x10 SLX drivetrain on 2014 bike. I would like to switch to a 1x11 setup on the cheap, just to try out the gearing, and if I like it I can evaluate switching everything over next year. So:
> 
> 1) Will XTR rear 11-speed shifter attach to my existing SLX brakes? I hear there can be some backwards compatibility problems with Shimano gear.
> 
> ...


If you just want to give it a try, I'd suggest picking up a front narrow/wide chainring for your SLX cranks. Also, if your rear derailleur doesn't have a clutch then add a chain retention device. Pull off your front shifter, derailleur, and cabling and run a 1x10 for a bit. See if you like it, understand what gearing you need for your riding, and pull the trigger on the right 1x11 parts when you are ready.


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## trhoppe (Sep 3, 2008)

Anyone tried the new XTR shifter/derailleur with a SRAM XX1 cassette?

edit: found my answer here: http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-s...shifter-derailleur-xx1-cassette-909562-2.html

-Tom


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## Eastcoastroots (Mar 23, 2014)

dreys said:


> You're missing the part that 11-speed cassette has 11 cogs. As such, you cannot use 10 speed shifter or derailleur with 11 speed cassette.


Are you sure on the derailleur? Ikomar's 42 tooth cog effectively makes the XT cassette 11-speed, but only the shifter needs to be converted to 11-speed; people seem to be using their 10-speed derailleurs just fine with something like a RAD cage.


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## cbj2012 (Aug 31, 2012)

Eastcoastroots said:


> This is getting complicated so thought I would ask here. I currently have full 2x10 SLX drivetrain on 2014 bike. I would like to switch to a 1x11 setup on the cheap, just to try out the gearing, and if I like it I can evaluate switching everything over next year. So:
> 
> 1) Will XTR rear 11-speed shifter attach to my existing SLX brakes? I hear there can be some backwards compatibility problems with Shimano gear.
> 
> ...


FYI the XTR shifter comes with cable.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

> Are you sure on the derailleur? Ikomar's 42 tooth cog effectively makes the XT cassette 11-speed, but only the shifter needs to be converted to 11-speed; people seem to be using their 10-speed derailleurs just fine with something like a RAD cage.


The spacing on the new 11 speed will be different. Ilkomar's cassette is designed to bolt onto a 10 speed cassette, and then he sells you a modified 10 speed shifter that now has 11 clicks. however the cog spacing will be 10 speed, not 11 speed spacing. To the original poster if you are trying to do a cheap test, the best thing to do is to get one of the aftermarket 40/42t cogs and try a 1*10 with all of your current equipment. If you like it then you can go to 11 speed either with XTR, SRAM, or Ilkomar's setup. YOu don't need 11 speeds to see if you like the gear range on offer. Personally I hate 1*11 as I hate it that people are setting up their bikes to give up on climbing the gnarly.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I have my own question on XTR 11. Does anyone have any thoughts on the FD cable pull ? I was thinking I could just use my current XTR front shifter with the new side pull derailleur. I can't imagine there would be any difference but maybe someone knows different.

My front shifting is so good right now I don't even know why I would mess with it but the side pull does seem a bit more elegant and I wouldn't mind 25% less shifting effort. I can see how it minimizes the bends and defllections of the cable and is a more direct pull. I don't mind buying the new XTR shifter its just that I'm not sure the Shimano FD will fit on my E29 so I'm trying to minimize my investment if the FD doesn't fit.


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## thehiredgun (Dec 14, 2011)

I would try the new XTR cables before changing the shifter or dérailleur. Supposedly the big change in effort is due to better cables. The side swing I think may require a special mount depending on the frame also.


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## Eastcoastroots (Mar 23, 2014)

Preston67 said:


> The spacing on the new 11 speed will be different. Ilkomar's cassette is designed to bolt onto a 10 speed cassette, and then he sells you a modified 10 speed shifter that now has 11 clicks. however the cog spacing will be 10 speed, not 11 speed spacing. To the original poster if you are trying to do a cheap test, the best thing to do is to get one of the aftermarket 40/42t cogs and try a 1*10 with all of your current equipment. If you like it then you can go to 11 speed either with XTR, SRAM, or Ilkomar's setup. YOu don't need 11 speeds to see if you like the gear range on offer. Personally I hate 1*11 as I hate it that people are setting up their bikes to give up on climbing the gnarly.


Good point; I didn't think about the spacing issue.

With a 42t cog, I don't think people really need to give up on tough climbs....they probably just need to make a choice as to what end of the range they want, and that all depends on where you ride. My trails are tight and twisty low-speed east coast stuff with short and steep climbs and descents where 20-23 mph is the maximum I could ever possibly hit on maybe one section, except for any rare (and unwanted) moments when I have to bomb down a dirt or paved road to get to the next trail. I would say that about 2 or 3 minutes total of all my summer riding was spent in my two smaller cogs on the big chainring in my 2x10 setup...so I have zero worries about spinning out in those extremely rare short moments. But if you're spending hours grinding up some huge mountain and then bombing down at huge speeds, then okay I hear ya!

Last year I saw someone on a bike without front derailleur, but running a 42t cassette and a weird 32t/40t double chainring frankenstein. He was from the Rockies and said that he just shifted the front ring manually; 32t was enough for all normal trail riding, but if he was hitting a monster downhill he just switched the chain over himself in about 10 seconds. It was a great idea.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

>switched the chain over himself in about 10 seconds. It was a great idea. 

An even better idea would be to have some mechanical device that could do it on the fly using a remote lever of some type up on the handlebars.


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## savo (Oct 15, 2009)

Preston67 said:


> >switched the chain over himself in about 10 seconds. It was a great idea.
> 
> An even better idea would be to have some mechanical device that could do it on the fly using a remote lever of some type up on the handlebars.


:madman:


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## paxfobiscum (Dec 16, 2014)

Preston67 said:


> >switched the chain over himself in about 10 seconds. It was a great idea.
> 
> An even better idea would be to have some mechanical device that could do it on the fly using a remote lever of some type up on the handlebars.


LOL!

My first post.

.


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## paxfobiscum (Dec 16, 2014)

Alias530 said:


> Anyone know how long shipping times to the USA usually are with Evans?
> 
> I ordered XTR cassette/shifter/derailleur yesterday from them. I found a thread on another forum about them saying it was horribly long but the thread was 4 years old, hopefully they've improved!


You would not believe this but I ordered from Evans Cycles over the phone on Jan 21. A dispatch notice was sent to me on Jan 22. And DHL had the package on my front door at Jan 23. I am not kidding.

.


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## wetpaint (Sep 7, 2009)

Alias530 said:


> Anyone know how long shipping times to the USA usually are with Evans?
> 
> I ordered XTR cassette/shifter/derailleur yesterday from them. I found a thread on another forum about them saying it was horribly long but the thread was 4 years old, hopefully they've improved!


I ordered another XTR Group from them, the Cassette showed up after 6 days, I suspect the shifter/derailleur should be here any day since they shipped from a different location. Just as fast as having items shipped to CA to MI


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

paxfobiscum said:


> You would not believe this but I ordered from Evans Cycles over the phone on Jan 21. A dispatch notice was sent to me on Jan 22. And DHL had the package on my front door at Jan 23. I am not kidding.
> 
> .





wetpaint said:


> I ordered another XTR Group from them, the Cassette showed up after 6 days, I suspect the shifter/derailleur should be here any day since they shipped from a different location. Just as fast as having items shipped to CA to MI


I'm right in between the time you two experienced... I ordered on Saturday and it got to my house at 11am today, on the 3rd business day. The shifter is still on its way though.

That is freaking insane. Chain Reaction always takes 3+ weeks.


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## Eastcoastroots (Mar 23, 2014)

Preston67 said:


> To the original poster if you are trying to do a cheap test, the best thing to do is to get one of the aftermarket 40/42t cogs and try a 1*10 with all of your current equipment. If you like it then you can go to 11 speed either with XTR, SRAM, or Ilkomar's setup. YOu don't need 11 speeds to see if you like the gear range on offer.


Yeah...once I looked at it, my issue was that I'm told the SLX cassette is not recommended for OneUp/Wolftooth big cogs...you need to drill out the rivets and whatnot. So if I should buy a XT cassette ($60) and 42t/16t cogs ($110) I am pretty much almost at Ikomar's 11-speed, and only $60 short of getting a new 11-speed XTR cassette...but as others have pointed out, getting a new 11-speed derailleur and shifter will more than double that cost, so I'll probably kick the official versions down the road for next year's upgrade. 



Preston67 said:


> >switched the chain over himself in about 10 seconds. It was a great idea.
> 
> An even better idea would be to have some mechanical device that could do it on the fly using a remote lever of some type up on the handlebars.


Hahaha touché! ...in all fairness a medium chainring and 42t cog gives enough range to climb anything and descend up to 25mph or something like that...probably normal trail riding for most people. So I guess he saved a little weight and cockpit clutter by removing the front derailleur and put the dropper lever on the left, and it's easy to switch over manually after you get to the top of those rarer big descents. Seemed to work for him, anyway.


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## thehiredgun (Dec 14, 2011)

Check out the XTR cassette at Evans Cycles. I think they're $180ish.

Also, my girlfriend just started riding and was asking about getting a lower gear on her bike for climbing. She's new so it's not like she's pounding down the trail at 20+mph ever. After comparing costs for one of the 40/42t cogs, I came to the conclusion that just putting a small front ring on there will do mostly the same thing as adding a 40/42t and pulling the 11t for a lot less money. I guess that only really applies if you have a 64bcd compatible crank. Her bike has an SLX 2x crank with a RF NW ring on it so I plan to put an AbsoluteBlack 28t 64bcd ring on there. She'll get the low range and enough high end until her skills improve for about $60.

Just a thought.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Load said:


> mounted rear derailleur+ shifter + cassette sram x01.
> it seems that everything is working fine.
> field test tomorrow.


When setting this up:
I'm running 30 tooth front
XTR mid cage with XO cassette.

How do you decide on chain length? How stretched should the derailleur be?

Thanks


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Not sure where my post went but here is the question again:
When setting up XTR rear derailleur, 30 tooth front ring and XO1 cassette.

Im trying to figure out chain length but my question is how stretched forward should rear derailleur be when doing it?

THanks

Maybe a pic of what is normal when you are in the 42 in the back.


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## dreys (Jan 21, 2014)

BJF said:


> How do you decide on chain length? How stretched should the derailleur be?


Wrap the chain around the front ring and largest rear ring, bypassing the derailleur... Than add 4 links to the chain.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Sounds way to easy. I assume with shock compressed.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

dreys said:


> Wrap the chain around the front ring and largest rear ring, bypassing the derailleur... Than add 4 links to the chain.


Most sources recommend 2 links (one inch) on a hardtail or with the suspension fully compressed on a fs.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Most sources recommend 2 links (one inch) on a hardtail or with the suspension fully compressed on a fs.


Works differently for RDs with offset guide pulleys, that rely on the cage being in a certain orientation to maintain the optimal/minimum gap between pulley and cog throughout the cassette.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

So if I'm switching from my xo1 rear derailuer in theory shouldn't my chain already be correct?

I just thought by going to a mid cage I needed to adjust.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Varaxis said:


> Works differently for RDs with offset guide pulleys, that rely on the cage being in a certain orientation to maintain the optimal/minimum gap between pulley and cog throughout the cassette.


Good to know, thought it was the same with Sram 1x11.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Varaxis said:


> Works differently for RDs with offset guide pulleys, that rely on the cage being in a certain orientation to maintain the optimal/minimum gap between pulley and cog throughout the cassette.


So what do you do for this?


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## dreys (Jan 21, 2014)

Varaxis said:


> Works differently for RDs with offset guide pulleys, that rely on the cage being in a certain orientation to maintain the optimal/minimum gap between pulley and cog throughout the cassette.


Don't overcomplicate things when things should be simple.

Follow the SRAM's manual (part #4). As I said in the previous, wrap the chain + 4 links:

https://sram-cdn-pull-zone-gsdesign...0-000_rev_e_1x11_mtb_cassettes_and_chains.pdf


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

dreys said:


> Don't overcomplicate things when things should be simple.
> 
> Follow the SRAM's manual (part #4). As I said in the previous, wrap the chain + 4 links:
> 
> https://sram-cdn-pull-zone-gsdesign...0-000_rev_e_1x11_mtb_cassettes_and_chains.pdf


Again with this logic I should be able to use existing length from my xo1 set up even though the rear derailuer is shorter in length?


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## dreys (Jan 21, 2014)

BJF said:


> Again with this logic I should be able to use existing length from my xo1 set up even though the rear derailuer is shorter in length?


You should be able to, that is correct.

However, once you have the actual derailleur mounted, you can manually check whether you need to add or remove links. The above is general formula to get you started on the length. The optimal length will be specific to your bike / shock travel once you have everything installed and visually check the length.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Anyone have a picture of their rear derailuer when in the 42. I want to see how stretched it looks.

Thanks


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Don't you think you're oversimplifying things, by just going by "guidelines"? Do you follow guidelines for setting up your suspension too? How about tire pressure, saddle height and tilt, stem length, etc? There's a reason behind it, but do you know what it is?

Normally, you want it to be long enough that it can freely move into the big-big gear, yet not be slack in the low-low gear. With RD based on offset pulleys, chain length also affects how far the pulley is from the cog, especially SRAM's XX1's, which doesn't have its parallelogram follow the slope of the cassette. Pull the cage forward and the pulley moves away from the cog, and let it retract and it moves closer, while on a RD without an offset, the pulley is in the same place no matter how clocked the the cage's orientation is. Shimano's RD has less offset and still relies on a slant parallelogram. I think it's closer to the tiny bit off offset on SRAM's XX 10spd RD, than the XX1's hugely offset RD pulley.

I wouldn't go off of guidelines based off assumptions (ex. assuming Shimano 11spd is like SRAM 11spd and shouldn't require more tuning). I'd advise you to use your best judgement based on how close you like the upper (guide) pulley to the cog teeth. The closer the pulley is, the more responsive/quicker and accurate the shifts are. If the pulley is 3-4mm close to the 40t, but more like 10mm away from the 28t, it would feel like shifts are lagged in the middle part of the cassette.

For example, believe it or not, the image on the left has the much better setup (despite the chain being considered too long by conventional guidelines, while those guidelines say the right side is "just right"):










The upper pulley is much closer the cog, which is a good thing for accurate and responsive shifting. The pic on the right came from EnduroMTB mag's long term review of XX1... imagine where the pulley would be if you let the cage retract back a bit on the right-side pic, such as if you added links to the chain, and how the length of chain hanging loose between the cog and pulley would be reduced.

Another bad one, from BikeRumor's long term review:










That upper pulley is so far from the cog that it makes me cringe. This is where the RD's upper pulley should be ideally if the chain was in the 2nd (or 3rd) to largest cog. I wonder if it would even shift properly with that much loose chain between the cog and pulley... the chain would maybe just flex and rub against the next cog slightly instead of being pushed/guided/derailed to the next cog, but then again the powerdome teeth seem to be shallower than normal, so it probably doesn't need as much force to derail.

These oversimplified guidelines didn't take SRAM's RD into consideration, I guess. I can't explain how these industry veterans wound up with these poor setups otherwise. Anyone that has read further into bike maintenance knows maintaining a minimal gap between the pulley and cog is basic knowledge.

Brief infomercial to show the difference between XTR M9000 11spd RD and Shimano's traditional 7/8/9/10spd RDs.


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## 6thElement (Jul 17, 2006)

SRAM XX1 install instructions specify a gap of 12-16mm for the upper jockey wheel to the cassette.


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## slavdo (Feb 1, 2013)

*Transmission efficiency*

I've been wondering what might be the efficiency loss of the drivetrain due to cross-shifting/bad chainline. I have found interesting graph published by Shimano infomertial on Di2 XTR. It seems that efficiency decrease due to cross-shifting is about 1%.


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## Eastcoastroots (Mar 23, 2014)

dreys said:


> 1) No
> 2) No
> 3) No
> 4) No
> ...





Preston67 said:


> The spacing on the new 11 speed will be different. Ilkomar's cassette is designed to bolt onto a 10 speed cassette, and then he sells you a modified 10 speed shifter that now has 11 clicks. however the cog spacing will be 10 speed, not 11 speed spacing. To the original poster if you are trying to do a cheap test, the best thing to do is to get one of the aftermarket 40/42t cogs and try a 1*10 with all of your current equipment. If you like it then you can go to 11 speed either with XTR, SRAM, or Ilkomar's setup. YOu don't need 11 speeds to see if you like the gear range on offer. Personally I hate 1*11 as I hate it that people are setting up their bikes to give up on climbing the gnarly.


Gents,

To circle back around to my question and your comments: the OP in this other thread has confirmed that the new 11-speed XTR rear derailleur seems to work perfectly with a 10-speed Shimano cassette and 10-speed XTR shifter.

That seems to go directly against what both of you have said. Clearly you can mix-and-match 11-speed and 10-speed components to some extent, and if the cassettes had different cog spacing, then you would think the 11-speed RD would not work properly with the 10-speed cassette, right?

Have either of you confirmed the information in your above posts? I'm trying to determine if VonFalkenhausen's results are a bit of a fluke, or might he be on to something here?


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

It doesn't surprise me that the new derailleur will work with 10spd, the movement of the derailleur is mostly determined by the cable pull of the shifter. But it was also very possible that changes were made in the leverage ratio down at the der, so this could have been an expensive experiment but if it is working for someone than that is probably not the case. In your OP, it seems like you were trying to use an old der and old shifter with a new cassette which would not work. A 10spd der would likely work with the 11 spd cluster (if using an 11spd shifter) with the primary problem being the same one anyone adapting a 40t cog runs into which is a cranked in b-screw and lack of clearance for the jockey pulley which does affect shifting quality.


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## Eastcoastroots (Mar 23, 2014)

Thanks for the thoughts. I have been contemplating using a new 11-speed shifter and cassette with a 2014 SLX derailleur that already has OneUp's RADr cage modification, which does change the RD geometry and improves shifting quality.


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## Eastcoastroots (Mar 23, 2014)

Eastcoastroots said:


> This is getting complicated so thought I would ask here. I currently have full 2x10 SLX drivetrain on 2014 bike. I would like to switch to a 1x11 setup on the cheap, just to try out the gearing, and if I like it I can evaluate switching everything over next year. So:
> 
> 1) Will XTR rear 11-speed shifter attach to my existing SLX brakes? I hear there can be some backwards compatibility problems with Shimano gear.





dreys said:


> 1) No


Thought I would follow up on this because Shimano's I-Spec system appears to be dumb and confusing, haha. Unless there's an easy chart that I'm missing somewhere that shows exactly what models attach to what?

The new 2015 XTR shifter comes in "I-Spec II" and "Bar Mount" options. My integrated 2014 SLX brake/shifter combo is obviously an I-Spec...I assume it must be I-Spec I then?









So to confirm, the new XTR shifter will not attach to these I-Spec SLX brakes from last year, correct? I will need to purchase the bar mount version?


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## Jan (Mar 8, 2004)

slavdo said:


> I've been wondering what might be the efficiency loss of the drivetrain due to cross-shifting/bad chainline.


Negligible. The Drive Efficiency Chart from Shimano is just ********. Using the big front chainring will allways give you the best efficiency.
The amazing unimportance of chainline and chain lubrication | Pedalitis


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## hatake (Jul 16, 2004)

Jan said:


> Negligible. The Drive Efficiency Chart from Shimano is just ********.The amazing unimportance of chainline and chain lubrication | Pedalitis


Yeah 99% vs. 98% won't give you much to work with. Also makes me wonder what they really mean by efficiency - drive ratio is purely subjective (to outputting subject - you), so that can't be the universal efficiency variable. Angle of the cross chain? That depends on the cranks and ring position, so it's hard to pin down. So what is this efficiency measured in?

But it's good to know that a middle ring based 1x would give you better lower gear efficiency, whatever that means


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## Van Cuz (Jun 24, 2010)

Eastcoastroots said:


> Thought I would follow up on this because Shimano's I-Spec system appears to be dumb and confusing, haha. Unless there's an easy chart that I'm missing somewhere that shows exactly what models attach to what?
> 
> The new 2015 XTR shifter comes in "I-Spec II" and "Bar Mount" options. My integrated 2014 SLX brake/shifter combo is obviously an I-Spec...I assume it must be I-Spec I then?
> 
> ...


The bike24 website says that ISpec 2 is compatible with I Spec B brakes, but I have not found this written anywhere else so can't confirm if this is accurate. Just from pictures it doesn't look as if I Spec 2 is backwards compatible. I'd really like to know as I'm in the also wondering.

You'd think this is the sort of information that Shimano would put on their website hey?


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## dreys (Jan 21, 2014)

Van Cuz said:


> The bike24 website says that ISpec 2 is compatible with I Spec B brakes, but I have not found this written anywhere else so can't confirm if this is accurate. Just from pictures it doesn't look as if I Spec 2 is backwards compatible. I'd really like to know as I'm in the also wondering.
> 
> You'd think this is the sort of information that Shimano would put on their website hey?


I-Spec II is *not compatible *with previous versions of I-Spec mounts (A and B).


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## Van Cuz (Jun 24, 2010)

dreys said:


> I-Spec II is *not compatible *with previous versions of I-Spec mounts (A and B).


Cheers.

I can't afford XTR brakes, so hopefully 2015 XT brakes with I Spec II isn't far from being released.


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## tiltedworld (Aug 2, 2011)

I don't think this has been asked yet and forgive me if it is a stupid question, but most of the complaints on the SRAM, or rather preference for Shimano RD and shifters have been because of shifter feel. This is something I would agree with and leads me to my question.

Can you use SRAM cassette and RD with just the Shimano shifter? Since the spacing is the same and you have the same number of cogs, why or why not?

I don't have a strong preference on the RD, but would like to use the SRAM cassette for the two ends of the range. If the SRAM RD truly gives better wrap on the 10-tooth (and is cheaper), why couldn't I just use the Shimano shifter to get the feel I want? It does suck that the I-Spec is not backwards compaitble with my 2014 XT brakes though.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Not sure it matters but I was running XO1 and switched to XTR with the sram cassette. If you look at places like backcountry.com the XTR rear derailleur is actually cheaper than the XO1.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

tiltedworld said:


> I don't think this has been asked yet and forgive me if it is a stupid question, but most of the complaints on the SRAM, or rather preference for Shimano RD and shifters have been because of shifter feel. This is something I would agree with and leads me to my question.
> 
> Can you use SRAM cassette and RD with just the Shimano shifter? Since the spacing is the same and you have the same number of cogs, why or why not?
> 
> I don't have a strong preference on the RD, but would like to use the SRAM cassette for the two ends of the range. If the SRAM RD truly gives better wrap on the 10-tooth (and is cheaper), why couldn't I just use the Shimano shifter to get the feel I want? It does suck that the I-Spec is not backwards compaitble with my 2014 XT brakes though.


Can't reliably mix brands for shifter/rear derailleur but you can mix cassette/chain/front derailleur (if you have one) usually. You'll probably have to adjust the b-tension screw a little bit to accommodate the 42 cog though. I had to screw mine in a little bit when I first set up my 11spd XTR even without mixing and matching brands.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

All

Currently my setup is DT240s with XTR 10s cassette.
Can You confirm that new XTR 11s cassette will fit (same 10s and 11s cassette width) ?


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## chukko (Sep 12, 2014)

I have DT240s XD with XX1 cassette. 11s cassettes do not have the same width as 10s, but they still fit - as the largest cog sits deeper - closer to the spikes.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

tiltedworld said:


> Can you use SRAM cassette and RD with just the Shimano shifter? Since the spacing is the same and you have the same number of cogs, why or why not?


According to Art's Cyclery Blog, the cable pull for a Shimano 11-speed shifter is 3.6, and SRAM 11-speed is 3.48. That's not a big difference and is probably workable, but it's different enough that I would keep the shifter and derailleur brands the same.


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## thehiredgun (Dec 14, 2011)

Yes, if a Shimano 10sp cassette fits now a Shimano 11sp will fit also.


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## TJay74 (Sep 26, 2012)

Correct, for Shimano if you are running a 10sp cassette you will remove the spacer to run the 11spd cassette.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

TJay74 said:


> Correct, for Shimano if you are running a 10sp cassette you will remove the spacer to run the 11spd cassette.


What spacer? That's a road bike thing.

In the mountain world, SRAM 11spd uses a proprietary hub and Shimano 11spd fits on the same exact 10spd freehub with zero modification. Road bikes, on the other hand, have a different freehub body for 11spd cassettes but can run 10spd cassettes with a spacer.


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## Placek (Jun 9, 2009)

COnfirmed today in some LBS - mtb fits mtb (11x mtb Shimano casette fits "old" 9,10x hubs)



thehiredgun said:


> Yes, if a Shimano 10sp cassette fits now a Shimano 11sp will fit also.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Can anyone explain the clutch on the new rear deraiuller to me. When I have it off my bike shifts fine. If I engage it the bike shifts terribly.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I can't help you with your clutch/shifting problems mine seems to work just fine.

But I did just have a 2 week old XTR-11 shifter crap out on me for no reason. No crash, no impact, no abuse, haven't even ridden it in the rain. It just quit upshifting unless you downshift all the way to the bottom, and the downshift is really stiff and clunky and doesn't always work. The upshift lever will work okay until you downshift, and then it will freewheel and not work.

Kind of scary for the future as in 25 years I've never had a shifter quit on me even when they were falling apart in plastic shards. I'm bringing it to the local warranty center but that just means in 6-8 weeks I might get a replacement shifter (bought it online). So I still have to order a new one -again online because no LBS is carrying this stuff yet. 

I hope the new one doesn't crap out on me too. I will say this one always felt a little stiff on the downshift so maybe it is a fluke. But let's hear if anyone else has an issue with it. Maybe its subtle nudge to go out and spend 2k on electric shifting.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

BJF said:


> Can anyone explain the clutch on the new rear deraiuller to me. When I have it off my bike shifts fine. If I engage it the bike shifts terribly.


Is it hard to push the shift buttons with the clutch on? If yes, I'd say the clutch is too tight and just needs to be loosened. I tightened my clutch and it became harder to shift so I backed it off a little. No effect on shifting besides that.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Alias530 said:


> Is it hard to push the shift buttons with the clutch on? If yes, I'd say the clutch is too tight and just needs to be loosened. I tightened my clutch and it became harder to shift so I backed it off a little. No effect on shifting besides that.


IT was harder and just wouldn't go int he gears properly. I find the fact that its adjustable to be strange. I mean if I play with the bolts inside and make it loose arent I going against the design?


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Not necessarily. I have two bikes running Zee. One shifts fine with the clutch on...and the other not so good. I had to loosen the clutch quite a bit to get one of them shift "ok". If the clutch part is hand assembled at the factory...then there could be variances in the clutch tension. 

I really don't see the need for the clutch lever. I think SRAM has the better idea with their clutch setup and the cage lock.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

The clutch mechanism wears out/breaks in, so you have to increase tension every so often to keep it working optimally. I've never had one long enough, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a "wear item". There's a huge thread on here somewhere of broken clutch mechanisms.

Increase the tension until it impacts shift performance. I experience a slight increase in force required to shift with clutch on vs. off.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Well I've been riding with the clutch off and it was fine. Then I did some searching on the internet so now I'm trying to figure it out.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Local shop claims xtr shift ratios and sram are different and bike will never shift well. Don't buy it. 

I do think my kmc chain is loud. Should I have gone sram xx1 chain?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BJF said:


> Local shop claims xtr shift ratios and sram are different and bike will never shift well. Don't buy it.
> 
> I do think my kmc chain is loud. Should I have gone sram xx1 chain?


Are you saying you don't believe them? The shift ratios are different so I can't see how they would perform equally when not run together.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

But is the cassette spacing different?


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Also I though most people feel it works well together.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

BJF said:


> But is the cassette spacing different?


No.

As long as you use the same brand shifter/derailleur and same number of gears, you can use whatever cassette you want. This has been the general rule of thumb for a while. Exception for Campy in the road world.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

I figured as much. I figured the store was clueless. 

Discussed me having b grade shifting.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

BJF said:


> I figured as much. I figured the store was clueless.
> 
> Discussed me having b grade shifting.


That's not to say you can just swap to whatever you want without making adjustments.

Going to a bigger max cog size necessitates b-tension adjustment and maybe even a longer chain.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Which I did. I went four extra links etc


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Thoughts on chain?


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Shimano is my fav chain, closely followed by KMC, with SRAM trailing behind. This is just my opinion, but YMMV. No real discernible difference between Shimano and KMC, Shimano is just often cheaper. Right now I'm running Ultegra 6800 11spd chains on my MTB, road, and cyclocross bikes. An online retailer was selling them for $20 so I bought a bunch, a freakin STEAL if you ask me.

Did you splice in new links or put on a new chain? Used chain + new cassette is asking for issues. Do you have experience setting up a rear derailleur? Is your cable tension right?

If you can't get it right I'd go to a different bike shop and just pay the $5-10 for a derailleur adjustment. Don't tell them it's a mismatch of parts or they might say that's why and half ass the job. Just go in and act clueless, say your bike isn't shifting right, and see if they can adjust it for you for a nominal fee.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Chain is brand new. I need to pick the bike up. They are a high end shop but had all types of clueless comments.

First tech told me my cassette was badly worn (has 150 miles on it)
Second tech claimed I was using a 10 speed KMC chain. Not true.

Really only have two issues at this point. The chain is noisy and I can't back pedal more than a revolution when in the 42 without it dropping. Kinda the same when in the next cog. I was having this issue with sram xo1 as well.

Shops keep claiming sram is using 10 speed spacing and shimano is using 11 speed. They all seem wrong.

Did you splice in new links or put on a new chain? Used chain + new cassette is asking for issues. Do you have experience setting up a rear derailleur? Is your cable tension right?

If you can't get it right I'd go to a different bike shop and just pay the $5-10 for a derailleur adjustment. Don't tell them it's a mismatch of parts or they might say that's why and half ass the job. Just go in and act clueless, say your bike isn't shifting right, and see if they can adjust it for you for a nominal fee.[/QUOTE]


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## JohnnyP5 (Aug 3, 2009)

*42/28 Chain Rings With XTR Front Derailleur?*

Is anybody running 42/28 chainrings with a XTR front derailleur (mechanical or Di2)? Or some combo of chainrings with a bigger than 10-tooth difference? The front derailleur is only spec'd to have a 10-tooth difference. I'm interested in running a SRAM crankset that I already have with Rotor 42/28 chainrings that I also already have.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I ran a 22/34 for a few weeks without problems. A 42 is quite a bit bigger overall though and of course your desired gap is bigger. I'm wondering if the 2*11 FD is even good to accomodate that size. Can't remember the largest chainring on the Shimano 2*11 crankset.


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## JohnnyP5 (Aug 3, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback, Preston. The FD is listed as 38T max and 10 tooth capacity. So, obviously what I'm interested in outside of that range...but that doesn't necessarily mean it won't work. But, to make this worse, a 42t Rotor chainring at it's widest point is about 44t.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

You could try running a 3*11 FD but set the shifter up to only be a 2 click shifter.
Or, IMO there is not really a performance difference between the XTR FD and any other FD. I mean, I believe the XTR11 FD has some incremental improvements and nice touches, but I wouldn't sweat trying other FD's that might have more appropriate specs. Assuming that is, you aren't focused on the aesthetics of a unified drivetrain or intrigued by the side swing. 

I had a SRAM x7 equivalent FD and I recently switched to an XTR11 side swing, and I can't say there was much if any difference. Even though its actually a little messier, I do kind of like the look of the side swing cable coming into the front and it does greatly reduce load on the FD mount and keeps the cable out of that whole BB area everything stays cleaner


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## Dave M (Mar 7, 2013)

Is anybody having issues with the new Shimano m9000 1X11 chain alignment in the low gears? there is such a radical chain line in low gear that when you back pedal the chain wont stay on, think about going back to Sram, hope its something simple but took it to my LBS and its still not right. Anybody have any ideas?? BTW, my chain line is at 50.4 just like the instructions say.

David


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

Dave M said:


> Is anybody having issues with the new Shimano m9000 1X11 chain alignment in the low gears? there is such a radical chain line in low gear that when you back pedal the chain wont stay on, think about going back to Sram, hope its something simple but took it to my LBS and its still not right. Anybody have any ideas?? BTW, my chain line is at 50.4 just like the instructions say.
> 
> David


With the same crank/ring, chainline is going to be virtually the same. I can't conceive how going back to SRAM is going to change anything.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

I had the issue with sram. Im switching my ring to a wolf with a 49mm chainline.


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## thehiredgun (Dec 14, 2011)

check your limit screws


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## ebe23 (Apr 14, 2015)

Hi,

Same problems here. Sick chainline in the lowest gears. Chain is not running smooth off the rear sprocket and on the front chainring. My bike is a Sworks enduro 29. Short chainstays but that shouldn't be a problem. 26" bikes also have short chainstays. Looks like the good chainline is in the 8th or 9th gear. So for the 1st gear 7 or 8 shifts needed. Expected the neutral chainline gear to be in the 6th gear or one plus minus. Trying now to offset my chainring with spacers.

Greets ebe23


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Is your crank made for a single, double, or triple chainring? If you have a double crank and run a single ring in the outer position it'll have crappy chainline on the lower half of the cassette. You can use spacers and longer bolts to move the ring inboard.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

I don't understand how anyone expects to have descent chain line with a single chain ring.:eekster: It is at best a compromise and I think it is why Shimano are not focusing on single chain rings.

Read this post from "tehan" who makes absoluteBLACK components:

http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-s...ack-oval-chainring-930173-4.html#post11616180

Says it all for me. The only benefit in my eyes is a reduction of a few ounces.


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## ebe23 (Apr 14, 2015)

Lelandjt said:


> Is your crank made for a single, double, or triple chainring? If you have a double crank and run a single ring in the outer position it'll have crappy chainline on the lower half of the cassette. You can use spacers and longer bolts to move the ring inboard.


For more informations, I am using the complete xtr drivetrain with fc-m9020-1 crank, wh-m9020 wheelset. From that view all should work like a charm. But it seems that this is in its current configuration the worst shimano drivetrain i ever have had. I also measured back from the specified chainline of that crank and the rearhub ends and obviously i am not that far off. But you really feel the material murdering sick chainline. I am machining at the moment some spacers for testing, which correct my chainring 5 mm innwards. Hope this could fix that. expecting results next week.

keep reporting

Greets ebe23


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

ebe23 said:


> I am machining at the moment some spacers for testing, which correct my chainring 5 mm innwards. Hope this could fix that. expecting results next week.


Then you are going to have an even worse chainline in your higher gears.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

There is not much you can do when it comes to the chainline. If you have a 104 bcd crank...you can space the 1x chainring a couple mm's in (except if you're running a 30T). Garbaruk in the Ukraine makes a chainring that gives you a 47.5mm chainline...but that is only for a SRAM GXP direct mount.


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## OneUp (Nov 26, 2013)

Dave M said:


> Is anybody having issues with the new Shimano m9000 1X11 chain alignment in the low gears? there is such a radical chain line in low gear that when you back pedal the chain wont stay on, think about going back to Sram, hope its something simple but took it to my LBS and its still not right. Anybody have any ideas?? BTW, my chain line is at 50.4 just like the instructions say.
> 
> David


This seems like a pretty common concern with M9000. IMHO Shimano missed the mark on 1X chainline. OneUp XTR M9000/9020 chainrings are offset to move the chainline to a more climbing friendly 49mm.

OneUp Components US - XTR NW RINGS

In addition, all our 104mm chainrings ship with 2mm spacers to achieve a 48mm chainline on 3x conversions and 50mm chainline on 2x conversions.

Unfortunately it was not well advertised that the 2x cranks on 90% of bikes from the past 3 years have a chainline 2mm wider than in the past. Slapping a narrow-wide ring on one of these cranks without spacers results a 52mm chainline.

I hope this helps,
Jon @ OneUp


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## ebe23 (Apr 14, 2015)

Ronnie said:


> Then you are going to have an even worse chainline in your higher gears.


Yes. More worse in the higher gears but not murdering bad in the two lowest gears. Checked the drivetrain in momentary state where the ideal chainline is in the 8th or 9th gear. Shifting from there 5 gears up towards the lower gears worked ok But the last two, especially the first one really feels like a damage. Hope to get there around with my modification and bring the sweet spot near the middle of the cassette. The two lowest and highest gears are not constantly in use on normal riding by me. Its also a matter of personal preferences. I would state that at the moment my 1st gear is not useable, its too obvious that in critical technical situation when cranking backwards is needed i will drop the chain. its also that i never had that problem with 3x10 in the middle chainring, all gears worked, not perfect in the extremes, but allways ok.

Greets ebe23


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

^The extra large cogs in the lowest 3 gears exacerbate bad chainline when compared to your previous 3×10 setup.


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## nbicho (Nov 6, 2014)

OneUp said:


> This seems like a pretty common concern with M9000. IMHO Shimano missed the mark on 1X chainline. OneUp XTR M9000/9020 chainrings are offset to move the chainline to a more climbing friendly 49mm.
> 
> OneUp Components US - XTR NW RINGS
> 
> ...


Hi Jon,

I'm thinking on jump to 1x11.
I have a XTR M9020-D Directmount 2x FD, a XTR M9000 ShadowPlus Direcmount RD, a XTR M9020 XC (36-26) Crank and a XTR M9000 11v (11-40) Cassette.
Do you think a 1x chainring will be enough for the conversion? 
When will you have a 36T chainring available?

Thank you

Enviado do meu HTC One_M8 através de Tapatalk


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

I have the XTR shifter and dérailleur with a WT 26T NW chainring on my new Pivot Les Fat. The XTR shifter effort on fore finger release is tougher than a thumb shift when shifting into a harder gear. Anyone else experience this?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## madskatingcow (May 23, 2006)

Questions to the people running an XTR RD-M9000 with an XX1 cassette :

- what chainlength do you use? According to their respective manuals, SRAM recommends adding 4 links, Shimano only two.
- what distance between upper pulley and large cog?
SRAM recommends 12 - 16mm, while Shimano mentions 5 - 6mm.
- When using a narrow wide chainring up front and XX1 cassette at the rear, I'd expect SRAM's XX1 chain is the way to go.

Seems like SRAM recommends about 2x Shimano's values.

http://si.shimano.com/php/download.php?file=pdf/dm/DM-RD0004-04-ENG.pdf

https://sram-cdn-pull-zone-gsdesign...8-003-000_rev_d_1x11_mtb_rear_derailleurs.pdf


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## VonFalkenhausen (Jun 26, 2014)

madskatingcow said:


> Questions to the people running an XTR RD-M9000 with an XX1 cassette :
> 
> - what chainlength do you use? According to their respective manuals, SRAM recommends adding 4 links, Shimano only two.
> - what distance between upper pulley and large cog?
> ...


Since you are running an XTR derailleur, start tuning from the Shimano recommendations. The derailleur design is a much bigger difference than the cassette when you compare Sram and Shimano.


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## TeamYetiMT (Feb 23, 2015)

Preston67 said:


> I ran a 22/34 for a few weeks without problems. A 42 is quite a bit bigger overall though and of course your desired gap is bigger. I'm wondering if the 2*11 FD is even good to accomodate that size. Can't remember the largest chainring on the Shimano 2*11 crankset.


How smooth was the front derailleur with that set-up? I am currently running the 26/36, I want to try and run 24/36....has anyone else tried mixing up the chain ring sizes?


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

TeamYetiMT said:


> How smooth was the front derailleur with that set-up? I am currently running the 26/36, I want to try and run 24/36....has anyone else tried mixing up the chain ring sizes?


It worked fine. Currently running 22/32 and it feels the same. I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

I just had my LBS install XTR RD-M9000 and XTR right shifter with SRAM X01 10-42 cassette. I took it on the first ride yesterday on singletrack and the shifting is awesome. The SRAM X01 cassette in black is a nice looking, has better range than XTR cassette, and is lighter to boot.


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

Same setup for a couple of months now and it's been great. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CactusJackSlade (Apr 11, 2006)

StoneRider and Canoe - what cranks and chain rings are you guys using?


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm running 2X Specialized S-works cranks on an Enduro29 and the chainline seems fine in all gears to me - of course its a little bit angled at the top and bottom end but it runs fine, I use the 42t all the time and the 10t quite often. This is with X01 10-42 cassette. FWIW I also run a small ring and FD and can run the small ring up to about 6th gear without issues. I have no idea what the chainline measures out at. Since I"m posting in this thread obviously I'm running XTR shifters and derailleurs (and chain). 

whatever that data point is worth to someone.


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## journey (Jan 27, 2004)

Preston67 said:


> I'm running 2X Specialized S-works cranks on an Enduro29 and the chainline seems fine in all gears to me - of course its a little bit angled at the top and bottom end but it runs fine, I use the 42t all the time and the 10t quite often. This is with X01 10-42 cassette. FWIW I also run a small ring and FD and can run the small ring up to about 6th gear without issues.


Which RD are you using? The medium (GS) or large (SGS)?


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## eliflap (Dec 13, 2007)

journey said:


> Which RD are you using? The medium (GS) or large (SGS)?


i have XTR di2 medium cage with 1x11 setup and X01 10-42 rear cassette


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

journey said:


> Which RD are you using? The medium (GS) or large (SGS)?


Long cage.


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## Dagonger (Dec 8, 2011)

Will the XtR Gs Rd work on 10-42 XT cassette?


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## journey (Jan 27, 2004)

yeti575inCA said:


> Will the XtR Gs Rd work on 10-42 XT cassette?


Are you asking about XT & XTR compatibility or the derailleur size? I read in another ppsting where some have used the XT cassettte with the XTR shifter & derailleur. The GS rear derailleur works with 1x drive trains and it is better to use the SGS RD when using 2x or 3x.


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## Nash04 (Dec 24, 2012)

Well today was my first hard ride with the new components and am not really happy with the 42 tooth if I compare it with the OneUp 42, while going up on steep hills, noticed that it would basically slip a few cogs under heavy pressure even though all of the components (chain, hub, chainring are new and chainline is sweet) where my OneUp never slip under pressure. It's basically like it would slip a few links then grab. Stop by the LBS and all is adjusted correctly so it must be the 42 causing the issue. Now I wish I kept my old 10 speed with OneUp cause I would reinstall it. Don't like that feeling while going up steep hills.


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

Hello.

Is there anyone LBS employee or shimano tech that 100% assure me that there is no spacing difference between the new 11sp. XTR Cassette and the New 11spd XT Cassette? I have two wheelsets and on my training wheels I decided to save some money and throw the 11-40 XT (not xtr) cassette on those wheels as they are not needed to be light. I am having issues in gears 7,8, and kind of 9 on the XT cassette. If feels as if it's just grinding in there and it's really not cross chained that bad at all. The LBS is at a loss but they are thinking there has to be something different between the new XT Cassette and XTR. When I slap the XTR cassette (that only has about 150miles onit) everything shifts fine. I even put a brand new chain, but not matter what the XT grinds in gears 7,8,9. I can do the trim all day long on the RD (which is di2) but it doesn't seem to matter. Setup is as follows.

2014: s works epic (med)
1x11 XTR di2 RD (clutch not set too tight)
Brand New Dura Ace 11sp Chain
measurement from center of seattube to chainring = 50-51mm
XTR Cassette - All Gears shift Perfect and chain-line feels perfect
XT Cassette - All Gears shift Great, but Chain-Line feels horrible in the mid hgher gears. ie 7,8,9 on the display. (guessing that is gears 15,17,19)

Again the LBS is stumped. They said everything should be perfect and those two cassettes should be exactly the same other than weight, but something is wrong. 

TIA


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

Did you try both cassettes on same wheel?


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

BJF said:


> Did you try both cassettes on same wheel?


This.

I've had two wheelsets for a bike where one doesn't shift as well. Microscopic differences in hub width/spacing I'm guessing.


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## ljsmith (Oct 26, 2007)

BJF said:


> Did you try both cassettes on same wheel?


Thats what I was wondering. Do your two wheelsets have different hubs? Different hubs can vary (though a very small amount) in freehub position, much like how different hubs can place your brake disc in different places. It might be just enough to cause a problem. Try using the XT cassette on the other wheelset and see what happens.


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

yes two different hubs.. DT Swiss on the xtr light wheelset and chris king on the XT training wheelset. The ck/xt combo is what is not happy. So tonight I threw the XT cassette on the DT hub and it felt perfect. So that tells me that 11-40 in XT and XTR is the same spacing and good. I even threw my friends xx1 wheel on there and did some trim adjustment and that worked well. However, when I took the XT cassette off and put it back on the ck hub it was not happy. The XTR cassette is happy on the ck wheelset though.. So it's weird. No spacers or rings on the ck wheelset. Just a normal 12x142 rear end with 10speed freehub which any shimano 11spd should work on. 

Thx for the suggestions btw. This is a weird issue. Kind of always been really loyal to shimano, but it seems like they just don't embrace the 1x world. I know 2 other folk running mech XTR 1x11 and they said it just doesn't shift that well.. They are coming from sram 1x11 and said they feel that sram finally got it right with their 1x stuff. oh well.


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## BJF (Apr 11, 2005)

On the king wheel try the Xt cassette with the xtr lock ring.

I used to have trouble with a xt cassette being tight on a king wheel. I ended up getting a king lock ring and that fixed it.

I'm running xtr 1x11 mechanical and it shifts well but then again I'm running a 49mm wolf ring and my xtr cassette crunches in some gears under load. 

I think it has to do with the carbon in the cassette.


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## SmittyPDX (Oct 25, 2011)

About to pull the trigger on a XTR m9000 cassette. Wanted to see if folks were experiencing creaking noises with their cassette? Saw some early reports of this, but not sure if shimano fixed the issue or if the cassettes settled down after some miles.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

SmittyPDX said:


> About to pull the trigger on a XTR m9000 cassette. Wanted to see if folks were experiencing creaking noises with their cassette? Saw some early reports of this, but not sure if shimano fixed the issue or if the cassettes settled down after some miles.


Has a lot to do with your power levels. Dura Ace cassettes do the same thing, it's the carbon carrier that makes it worse.

Mine (XTR for mtb and Dura Ace for road before switching to X01 for mtb and 1170 for road) both creaked. The biggest 3-4 cogs creaked pretty much no matter what and the next 3 cogs creaked only under hard efforts. My Ultegra cassette on my CX bike creaks too but only in the biggest 3 cogs of the highest efforts.

There's something to be said about how quiet the XD driver interface is when its greased and torqued properly.


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## SmittyPDX (Oct 25, 2011)

Alias530 said:


> Has a lot to do with your power levels. Dura Ace cassettes do the same thing, it's the carbon carrier that makes it worse.
> 
> Mine (XTR for mtb and Dura Ace for road before switching to X01 for mtb and 1170 for road) both creaked. The biggest 3-4 cogs creaked pretty much no matter what and the next 3 cogs creaked only under hard efforts. My Ultegra cassette on my CX bike creaks too but only in the biggest 3 cogs of the highest efforts.
> 
> There's something to be said about how quiet the XD driver interface is when its greased and torqued properly.


Thanks Alias! That's a non starter for me then. I just emailed my wheel builder to switch hubs to the XD version. X01 is a bit more, but worth it to me for a quiet drivetrain. Weight savings don't hurt either!!


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

SmittyPDX said:


> Thanks Alias! That's a non starter for me then. I just emailed my wheel builder to switch hubs to the XD version. X01 is a bit more, but worth it to me for a quiet drivetrain. Weight savings don't hurt either!!


XD is a win on all counts... the freehub body itself is lighter, no gouging, quieter, etc.

The X01/XX1 cassettes are great too. Wide range, low weight, etc.

Cost is a downside to both though.


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## stamion (Apr 17, 2014)

Hi,

I am having the same problem as @Dave M and apparently other people... I installed a new xtr drivetrain on my Norco Range (xt cassette 11-42, xtr derailleur, xtr m9020 crankset) with a One-up Components xtr m9000 chainring. The chainline seems to be very bad. I get a lot of grinding when in the lower gears (biggest three cogs). Needless to say that the chain gets offwhen backpedalling. I contacted One-Up components )send them photos of the drivetrain) and they told me everything looks right. I figure i should install a 1,5mm shim to get a good chainline. The thing is i cannot find any M9 bolts (the bolts thread right into the chainring) long enough to compensate for the additional offset. Any suggestions?


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## mfa81 (Apr 1, 2011)

wolftooth have some bolts, did you try looking at those?


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## OneUp (Nov 26, 2013)

stamion said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am having the same problem as @Dave M and apparently other people... I installed a new xtr drivetrain on my Norco Range (xt cassette 11-42, xtr derailleur, xtr m9020 crankset) with a One-up Components xtr m9000 chainring. The chainline seems to be very bad. I get a lot of grinding when in the lower gears (biggest three cogs). Needless to say that the chain gets offwhen backpedalling.


Hello Stamion,

The OneUp XTR ring is already offset about 1.5mm narrower than the stock ring. Moving it further could compromise chainstay clearance depending on bike and ring size. A better option might be to use our 18T+spacer kit to improve your chainline by 4mm without losing any range.

18T Sprocket + Spacer [ 1x11 ] - OneUp Components US

The OneUp 18T sprocket and spacer kit replaces the 17T and 19T sprockets within a stock 11 speed Shimano cassette and spaces the cassette out by 4mm which greatly reduces back-pedal chain dropping issues. The 18T kit removes one gear from your cassette without changing the stock range and is only compatible with 11-speed components. Simply use your low limit to remove one click from your rear shifter.

I hope that helps,
Jon @ OneUp


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## stamion (Apr 17, 2014)

Thanx mfa81, i have already checked out wolftooth,unfortunately the biggest bolt they produce is M8..


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## stamion (Apr 17, 2014)

OneUp said:


> Hello Stamion,
> 
> The OneUp XTR ring is already offset about 1.5mm narrower than the stock ring. Moving it further could compromise chainstay clearance depending on bike and ring size. A better option might be to use our 18T+spacer kit to improve your chainline by 4mm without losing any range.
> 
> ...


But then i would be losing one gear..I was already running a 10 speed cassette and switched to 11 to get a better rythm. It is odd that One-Up Components doesn't manufacture a longer M9 bolt as a lot of people need spacers to get a good chainline. I have tried mounting the one-up chainring with the M9 bolts that came with it using 1,5mm shims and that created an almost perfect chainline. No grinding at either end.But i cannot use the bolts under pedalling power because they are sort and only thread in one or two threads.


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## OneUp (Nov 26, 2013)

stamion said:


> But then i would be losing one gear..I was already running a 10 speed cassette and switched to 11 to get a better rythm. It is odd that One-Up Components doesn't manufacture a longer M9 bolt as a lot of people need spacers to get a good chainline. I have tried mounting the one-up chainring with the M9 bolts that came with it using 1,5mm shims and that created an almost perfect chainline. No grinding at either end.But i cannot use the bolts under pedalling power because they are sort and only thread in one or two threads.


It might not sound ideal but XTR moved away from the standard use of M8 chainring hardware on M9000.

You are correct that our bolts cannot be used with a shimmed ring due to thread engagement but our adjusted chainline is as narrow or narrower than other options on the market. The 18T does drop the number of cogs to 10 but the chainline is improved by 4mm thereby greatly improving backpedal performance. The largest jump is <2% more than the largest stock Shimano jump and the same as the largest stock SRAM jump.

Additionally the RD stays further from the spokes making the system more robust and you aren't compromising high speed chain retention by running a super narrow chainline.

I hope this helps,
Jon @ OneUp


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## stamion (Apr 17, 2014)

OneUp said:


> It might not sound ideal but XTR moved away from the standard use of M8 chainring hardware on M9000.
> 
> You are correct that our bolts cannot be used with a shimmed ring due to thread engagement but our adjusted chainline is as narrow or narrower than other options on the market. The 18T does drop the number of cogs to 10 but the chainline is improved by 4mm thereby greatly improving backpedal performance. The largest jump is <2% more than the largest stock Shimano jump and the same as the largest stock SRAM jump.
> 
> ...


Thanx for the reply Jon. I will have to figure a clever bodge though as I paying for an upgrade (1x10 to 1x11) and not taking full advantage of it is really annoying.


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## PHS (Sep 5, 2009)

73 mm Standard English Bottom bracket with XTR 9020 Crank running Single Speed. 
Does anybody know how many bottom bracket spacers needed on either side of bottom bracket? (if any) 

Having a creak in bottom bracket area with a new xtr bb. Probably will change it to a CK BB. 

Thx!


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

PHS said:


> 73 mm Standard English Bottom bracket with XTR 9020 Crank running Single Speed.
> Does anybody know how many bottom bracket spacers needed on either side of bottom bracket? (if any)
> 
> Having a creak in bottom bracket area with a new xtr bb. Probably will change it to a CK BB.
> ...


SHIMANO Dealer's Manual / User's Manual


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## PHS (Sep 5, 2009)

Thank You for the reply. I will check that out. Thank You!


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

Here's basically what it boils down to. Shimano's implementation of 1x and the world of short chain stays doesn't exist. They have not ever really promoted 1x on the 9000 stuff other than saying you can run it 1x,2x,3x. But look at what their marketing and bike manufactures implementation of the 9000 stuff. It's all 2x. ESPECIALLY when dealing with short chainstays. A perfect example of this is the Epic WC. Look at last years and this years selection of WC models (which have shorter chain stays than the standard epic). You cannot find 1 shimano spec'd Epic WC model (last year or this year). Even the non-WC model epic they have that does have shimano on it, is only 2x. 

Shimano and 1x11 sucks. Shimano and 1x11 with short chain stays REALLY sucks. I've been battling this for months now on my epic WC. I was super pumped when the di2 9000 stuff came out. I had been running 1x10 xtr mech for a couple of years and it worked pretty good. I always felt the clutch engaged was a little sketch going into the 36, but not that bad. When I got the 11 speed stuff I was excited to finally have a 40. 

Shifting into the 40 with the clutch engaged was horrific. I am talking in the stand you'd have to use a lot of force if the clutch was engaged. Even without the clutch it goes up into the 40 like crap. This was with the recommended 49-50mm chain line spacing. Finally, I moved the chainline in to 47 and had slightly better luck but it still sucked. Also, I would have grinding in gears it should't have grinding in (like dead center on the 17). i've replaced cassettes, chains, pullys, chain rings, narrow wide, wave, you name it. I've done it.. And in the end the drive train sucks. 

The LBS was baffled. At first they just said "that's normal" and at that point I went and pulled a pivot mach 429 which has longer stays than the epic off their shelf. We shifted both bikes and it's was night and day. The state/region shimano rep took a look at my setup (checked hanger and that) and said "shimano doesn't really support 1x setups".. ha.. He said that is normal feel, and I showed him a sram and that pivot setup and said "that's normal feel" he said they would turn it over to shimano tech.. which means nothing.

Basically if you are going to run shimano 9000 in 1x you need get that chain ring around 46-47mm is possible. Get it as close to your chain stay as you can, but not too close. Your chain stay will flex, and you don't want it flexing into those teeth. 

I never thought I'd tell people to turn away from a shimano product, but I'd say in this case.. only in the 1x world with short chainstays, one should stay away.

Boost will remedy some of this..


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## jon123 (Oct 11, 2009)

combfilter said:


> Shimano and 1x11 sucks.


I disagree with this. It has not been my experience at all.

Now I realize you did qualify it heavily -- referring particularly to short stays and non-Boost.

My XTR 1x11 set up on my v2 5010 (which is Boost) has been excellent. Very smooth and quiet, typical XTR refinement.

I had tried the pairing of XTR derailleur with Sram XX1 cassette and chain (to save a bit of weight) and that was NOT great by any means. Sometimes it was ok, but it was wildly inconsistent and I just wasn't happy with it.

Since I've switched to the XTR cassette, OneUp 45T cog and XTR chain everything has been great. Goes in and out of all the gears very well. In fact shifting in to and out of the 45T is among the smoothest.

Great gear range with this set up, too.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

combfilter said:


> Here's basically what it boils down to. Shimano's implementation of 1x and the world of short chain stays doesn't exist. They have not ever really promoted 1x on the 9000 stuff other than saying you can run it 1x,2x,3x. But look at what their marketing and bike manufactures implementation of the 9000 stuff. It's all 2x. ESPECIALLY when dealing with short chainstays. A perfect example of this is the Epic WC. Look at last years and this years selection of WC models (which have shorter chain stays than the standard epic). You cannot find 1 shimano spec'd Epic WC model (last year or this year). Even the non-WC model epic they have that does have shimano on it, is only 2x.
> 
> Shimano and 1x11 sucks. Shimano and 1x11 with short chain stays REALLY sucks. I've been battling this for months now on my epic WC. I was super pumped when the di2 9000 stuff came out. I had been running 1x10 xtr mech for a couple of years and it worked pretty good. I always felt the clutch engaged was a little sketch going into the 36, but not that bad. When I got the 11 speed stuff I was excited to finally have a 40.
> 
> ...


Just because you can't get to work doesn't mean it sucks. My Riot (16.2) had MUCH shorter chainstays then your Epic and my XTR shifted perfectly fine with a OneUp 45t. It's still shifting as XTR should on the Mojo- still shorter than your Epic by 1/2 inch.

Sounds like time for a new LBS, but don't slam a brand because you don't know what you're doing.

By the way, to further point out you don't understand whats going on, you basically have a boost rear. Specialized wheels are 142+, cassette moved out 2mm compared to boost moving it out 3mm.
When it comes to boost cranks, the chainline is further out to match the move of the cassette, so it doesn't really get better. My Mojo 3 which is boost has a better chain line with a non-boost XTR crank

But since it's such garbage, send me a PM, I love buying garbage cheap.


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## jon123 (Oct 11, 2009)

TwoTone said:


> Just because you can't get to work doesn't mean it sucks. My Riot (16.2) had MUCH shorter chainstays then your Epic and my XTR shifted perfectly fine with a OneUp 45t. It's still shifting as XTR should on the Mojo- still shorter than your Epic by 1/2 inch.
> 
> Sounds like time for a new LBS, but don't slam a brand because you don't know what you're doing.
> 
> ...


TwoTone
I'm also using the non boost XTR crank and agree that the chain line (49mm) is great.

Any idea why OneUp recommends the Boost crank, with a chain line in the 51-53mm range?:

Understanding Chainline for Optimal 1X Conversions (Boost and Non-Boos - OneUp Components US


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

two tone

1st I have a 2014 epic WorldCup s-works frameset (not standard). 2nd. the 2014 epic is standard 142 and not 142+ check your facts before spitting out the wrong info. 3rd. It's not just me and the lbs that have noticed this. Shimano's region tech has looked at my bike and acknowledged the issue. He's informed me that shimano is working on both a new chain and they are on their 3rd chain ring to help with this issue. Notice they first used hook style (where the teeth curve inward. kind of like wave rings, but they all lean the same way) on their prototypes last year? Then they went to just a tall tooth profile (which is what currently comes on their FC cranks), and next they are coming out with...guess..? A narrow wide (which they have some other name for). They will literally be on their 3rd chain ring on their latest FC cranks in a matter of 1.5yrs. Think about that for a second. 3rd ring on a new crankset. The front ring and chain has been such an issue that it even had World Cup Icon Julian Absalon was running a regular/normal chain ring (non-fc, non-narrow wide, non-wave) with a chain keeper because his mechanics were having issues with back pedaling and chain retention on his hard tail (however his FS bike ran fine). 
Shimano is aware of the issue. Just google shimano 1x11 chain line issues. Go back a few pages in this thread even. Look on pinkbike, look on reddit. It's not just me. The common denominator tends to be short stays, and after market narrow wide rings. The LBS and shimano reps have noticed that moving that closer to 47 will help some with the issues people are having when you go up into the 40 with clutch enabled. Which brings me to the part where you some how claim I don't understand. The very last sentence of my post said "boost will remedy some of this". What part of that do YOU not understand? I understand boost will move chain lines outward, and this will help. Guess what though? My epic is not boost, and it's standard 142 not + as you claimed. So until I either get a boost epic (which I think the 2017's are), I can try getting my chainline in to around 47. 

Shimano's usa reps and their riders were begging for shimano to provide them with a 1x setup. Shimano JP felt that 2x was better and the EU markets proved that people still wanted 2x even 3x setups, so this fell deaf ears. Even with bikes literally being designed without front derailleur mounts, Shimano JP didn't' really care. Now that more and more companies are going boost, they are finally starting to realize that 1x is not a trend, and their USA market is getting tired of losing a lot of mtb $$$ to sram. They are now actually taking 1x serious and developing for it. Their latest 1x,2x,3x "support" is really just a one size fits all stop gap for 1x. You don't see these issues on srams 1x line up because they designed it literally to be 1x from the ground up. Shimano's implimentation of it was more of just a "sure you can run it 1x"

Saying "I don't understand" is incorrect. This isn't my first drive train, and not my first rodeo. I've run every series of sram and shimano mtb drivetrain that's been released in the last 10yrs (except eagle). I am qualified to voice my opinion of saying this latest version of shimano's 1x sucks relative to shimano products i've used in the past. This is coming from someone who is actually a shimano fanboi too. Even shimano's own reps will tell you "it's really meant for 2x" Why do you think you find very little STOCK xtr di2 mtb's in the 1x format? Yes I understand you can chose custom builds, but for example look at the epic. Find me a 1x build in the epic. You can't. Why? 

When shimano acknowledges a problem and is on their 3rd chainring and developing a new chain, that should tell you there's a problem somewhere. 

BTW I have mech 8000 group on my HT with longer stays and a 32 front ring and it runs decent'ish(not as good as my 1x10 did). So yes like your ibis and lots of other successful shimano 1x setups there are some good results.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

jon123 said:


> TwoTone
> I'm also using the non boost XTR crank and agree that the chain line (49mm) is great.
> 
> Any idea why OneUp recommends the Boost crank, with a chain line in the 51-53mm range?:
> ...


I can't say why they do. I had to do a lot of research while I was waiting on my Mojo 3. I asked on the Mojo thread and someone posted a picture of their XT non Boost crank and that's how I knew it would work. He even stated he had a Boost XT crank at first and it wasn't the best chain line. Even Ibis told me it wouldn't work when I asked.

I'm assuming it's just going to vary by frame as to what chainring will clear the chainstay and the boost chainline of 51-53 is 'safe'. I'll admit my OneUp 32t oval is pretty tight, but I'm fine with it.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

combfilter said:


> two tone
> 
> 1st I have a 2014 epic WorldCup s-works frameset (not standard). 2nd. the 2014 epic is standard 142 and not 142+ check your facts before spitting out the wrong info. 3rd. It's not just me and the lbs that have noticed this. Shimano's region tech has looked at my bike and acknowledged the issue. He's informed me that shimano is working on both a new chain and they are on their 3rd chain ring to help with this issue. Notice they first used hook style (where the teeth curve inward. kind of like wave rings, but they all lean the same way) on their prototypes last year? Then they went to just a tall tooth profile (which is what currently comes on their FC cranks), and next they are coming out with...guess..? A narrow wide (which they have some other name for). They will literally be on their 3rd chain ring on their latest FC cranks in a matter of 1.5yrs. Think about that for a second. 3rd ring on a new crankset. The front ring and chain has been such an issue that it even had World Cup Icon Julian Absalon was running a regular/normal chain ring (non-fc, non-narrow wide, non-wave) with a chain keeper because his mechanics were having issues with back pedaling and chain retention on his hard tail (however his FS bike ran fine).
> Shimano is aware of the issue. Just google shimano 1x11 chain line issues. Go back a few pages in this thread even. Look on pinkbike, look on reddit. It's not just me. The common denominator tends to be short stays, and after market narrow wide rings. The LBS and shimano reps have noticed that moving that closer to 47 will help some with the issues people are having when you go up into the 40 with clutch enabled. Which brings me to the part where you some how claim I don't understand. The very last sentence of my post said "boost will remedy some of this". What part of that do YOU not understand? I understand boost will move chain lines outward, and this will help. Guess what though? My epic is not boost, and it's standard 142 not + as you claimed. So until I either get a boost epic (which I think the 2017's are), I can try getting my chainline in to around 47.
> ...


So you complain about shifting in the rear and spend most of your post talking about chain retention with the front ring.:thumbsup:


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## OneUp (Nov 26, 2013)

TwoTone said:


> I can't say why they do. I had to do a lot of research while I was waiting on my Mojo 3. I asked on the Mojo thread and someone posted a picture of their XT non Boost crank and that's how I knew it would work. He even stated he had a Boost XT crank at first and it wasn't the best chain line. Even Ibis told me it wouldn't work when I asked.
> 
> I'm assuming it's just going to vary by frame as to what chainring will clear the chainstay and the boost chainline of 51-53 is 'safe'. I'll admit my OneUp 32t oval is pretty tight, but I'm fine with it.


49mm on Boost is a bit tight IMHO. The stock SRAM is 52mm and many bikes won't take something narrower. In that regard, 51-53mm is a safe recommendation.

For people who aren't afraid to experiment a little I'd recommend going down to 50.5mm (47.5 for non-boost). This give better wear without affecting high speed retention.

Jon @ OneUp


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

OneUp said:


> 49mm on Boost is a bit tight IMHO. The stock SRAM is 52mm and many bikes won't take something narrower. In that regard, 51-53mm is a safe recommendation.
> 
> For people who aren't afraid to experiment a little I'd recommend going down to 50.5mm (47.5 for non-boost). This give better wear without affecting high speed retention.
> 
> Jon @ OneUp


Keep in mind, if I'm not mistaken the XTR M9020 is 50.4 mm chianline


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm having a hard time understanding why 1* vs 2* matters that much. I have an E29 that supposedly has pretty short CS, and while I do run XXTR 2*, I spend most of my time running it in the big ring where I use all of the rear cog,so isn't that effectively a 1* situation ? I have zero problems with anything. So when you say Shimano 1* sucks, I don't understand why - is it simply chain retention ? Obviously I have an FD to keep the chain in place a little bit but the front rings are not N/W, and I think I've dropped a chain twice in 3 seasons. (I ride and race plenty, and lots of gnarly)

So what is it here that makes a 1* "suck" ? Is it just because you have chainring retention problems and you don't want to run a chain guide ? If the chainline is not optimum can't you just use some spacers on the chainring or the BB to move it 1-2 mm ? Or is that easier said than done ? And if the chainring is the main issue, can't you just put an aftermarket N/W ring on your Shimano cranks ?


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## jon123 (Oct 11, 2009)

OneUp said:


> 49mm on Boost is a bit tight IMHO. The stock SRAM is 52mm and many bikes won't take something narrower. In that regard, 51-53mm is a safe recommendation.
> 
> For people who aren't afraid to experiment a little I'd recommend going down to 50.5mm (47.5 for non-boost). This give better wear without affecting high speed retention.
> 
> Jon @ OneUp





TwoTone said:


> Keep in mind, if I'm not mistaken the XTR M9020 is 50.4 mm chianline


I still have plenty of clearance using a non-Boost XTR crank with the OneUp 32 NW ring. Really it's not even close to the stay.
I guess clearance will vary by frames.
Using the Boost version of the crank would -- I think -- make the chainline worse.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

jon123 said:


> I still have plenty of clearance using a non-Boost XTR crank with the OneUp 32 NW ring. Really it's not even close to the stay.
> I guess clearance will vary by frames.
> Using the Boost version of the crank would -- I think -- make the chainline worse.


He was replying to my post about using non boost cranks on a boost frame and said 49 mm is tight, so I was pointing out his recommendation of 50.5mm was what my XTR cranks have.


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## jon123 (Oct 11, 2009)

OneUp said:


> 49mm on Boost is a bit tight IMHO. The stock SRAM is 52mm and many bikes won't take something narrower. In that regard, 51-53mm is a safe recommendation.
> 
> For people who aren't afraid to experiment a little I'd recommend going down to 50.5mm (47.5 for non-boost). This give better wear without affecting high speed retention.
> 
> Jon @ OneUp





TwoTone said:


> Keep in mind, if I'm not mistaken the XTR M9020 is 50.4 mm chianline





TwoTone said:


> He was replying to my post about using non boost cranks on a boost frame and said 49 mm is tight, so I was pointing out his recommendation of 50.5mm was what my XTR cranks have.


Yeah, I know. All good.
I was just pointing out that with my Boost frame and non-Boost cranks there's still lots of clearance.
Possibly because of what you're saying -- that the non-Boost XTR cranks have a greater chainline than 49mm.


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