# Any mountain bikes made in US?



## Spetsnaz201 (May 16, 2011)

Are there any entry level mountain bikes being made in the U.S.? Do any big name companies like Trek, Specialized and Jamis manufacture their bikes in the U.S.

Also was wondering about the Norco Bikes, are they made in Canada?


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## bloodyknee (Jul 29, 2008)

I can't think of an entry level mountain bike that is made in the US.


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## blunderbuss (Jan 11, 2004)

Entry level? Nope. An entry level bike would lose the entry level price if it was US made.


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## JimmyNeutron10101 (Jan 3, 2011)

Defined Made in USA.

because no big item products I can think of is made in the USA. It may say Made in the USA but how sure are you that the raw materials are from the USA? Did they mined the iron from a USA site? Did every chemical component in the paint come from a USA plant? Did the grease come from a USA plant that manufacture the grease using all USA chemicals in a USA lab?

Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are NOT USA Citizens?
Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are USA Citizens?
Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are naturalized USA citizens?
Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are NOT naturalized USA citizens?
Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are naturalized USA citizens?
Is it consider Made in USA if everything is brought in oversea and assemble in the USA?
etc...

Be specific if you're soooooooooooooooo concern about Made in USA.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

If you could define entry level with a price point that would help considerably!

Ventana is probably the cheapest quality frame maker at the moment. You would have to build up the bike yourself. Cannondale made the last of the entry level "Made in the USA" bikes that I know of but they have jumped shipped over to asia this past year. Fox forks and shocks are also made in the USA. Thomson makes seatposts and stems... I plan on starting a thread were people can list what part manufacturers still make their stuff here... Probably take me a week to get to it. Drivetrain you are basically looking at Japan (Shimano) or China (Sram). I believe there are some high end drivetrain pieces made here but more than what the average Joe needs.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Trek makes their carbon fiber bikes in the USA. This is their cheapest USA made bike: http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/mountain/singletrack_trail/fuel_ex/fuel_ex_9_7#

Trek Fuel EX 9.7 MSRP $3,669


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

Quiring has the Q-Ball multipurpose 29er, handmade by Scott Quiring in Michigan. About $500 for the frame. If you are careful when choosing parts, one can be built for under $1000.


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## Spinning Lizard (Nov 27, 2009)

JimmyNeutron10101 said:


> Defined Made in USA.
> 
> because no big item products I can think of is made in the USA. It may say Made in the USA but how sure are you that the raw materials are from the USA? Did they mined the iron from a USA site? Did every chemical component in the paint come from a USA plant? Did the grease come from a USA plant that manufacture the grease using all USA chemicals in a USA lab?
> 
> ...


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## taj13 (Feb 16, 2010)

By "bike" do you mean just the frame, or frame plus wheels, drivetrain, brakes...


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## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

Spetsnaz201 said:


> Also was wondering about the Norco Bikes, are they made in Canada?


Nope. Entry level Norco frames often come from Vietnam.


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## manabiker (Jul 18, 2010)

Davinci are from Canada they make bikes there, I'm not sure if all bikes are made in Canada, eh?


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## JimmyNeutron10101 (Jan 3, 2011)

Spinning Lizard said:


> I Guess you are not smart enough to figure out what Made in the USA is? TROLL


You want the truth?!?!? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!  LOL!!! about where your product is made. Just accept it...you're bike can never consist of all parts in the USA.

For all I care, my bike can be made in Atlantis. All that matter at the end of the day is if the bike quality is there. So what use is a bike that is made in the USA if it breaks down easily compare to a bike made in Atlantis by some mermaids??? 

I laugh at people saying they buy only Made in USA products and then I tell them, "Where is your laptop/desktop made from? What about the clothes you are wearing now? (exception to hot naked chicks  )" and that shuts them up. :thumbsup:


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## yabodie (Nov 4, 2010)

Seven is made in Mass, but be ready to pay for it.


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## speedmetal (Feb 28, 2007)

Foes, Ventana, Intense. A few come to mind. None that I would call "entry level", however. Most of the US made bikes will be either very small, boutique builders or custom offerings, like Seven and Moots.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

My new frame is US made... components are a mixed bag...mostly overseas stuff. Like JimmyNeutron said...at the end of the day...my biggest concern is that my bike got me home in one piece regardless of where the parts were manufactured. Of coarse I would like to buy stuff from here to support American workers but lets face it...it's too expensive and honestly...these days, Made in the USA does NOT always mean better quality.


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## Spinning Lizard (Nov 27, 2009)

JimmyNeutron10101 said:


> You want the truth?!?!? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!  LOL!!! about where your product is made. Just accept it...you're bike can never consist of all parts in the USA.
> 
> For all I care, my bike can be made in Atlantis. All that matter at the end of the day is if the bike quality is there. So what use is a bike that is made in the USA if it breaks down easily compare to a bike made in Atlantis by some mermaids???
> 
> I laugh at people saying they buy only Made in USA products and then I tell them, "Where is your laptop/desktop made from? What about the clothes you are wearing now? (exception to hot naked chicks  )" and that shuts them up. :thumbsup:


It is not about quality anymore, it is about trying to keep our country running by keeping as many dollars here as possible and good people employed, if you do not get that then move. I hope your job gets outsourced then maybe you will give a crap.


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## NotNeedingWings (Apr 10, 2012)

Spinning Lizard said:


> It is not about quality anymore, it is about trying to keep our country running by keeping as many dollars here as possible and good people employed, if you do not get that then move. I hope your job gets outsourced then maybe you will give a crap.


Agreed, with a caveat. It most certainly still IS about quality--manufacturers and retailers who fail to respond to marketplace demands for such are unlikely to succeed in the long term, and that's as it should be. I don't know about you, but I don't have money to throw away on unreliable gear (especially in these uncertain economic times, as you note.) That having been said, American companies (such as those noted above) can and do produce high-quality products, and I for one will continue to "buy american" whenever my budget allows. For me, that means getting creative with ways to save and make money to afford the higher price tag on US-made bike items, but I feel it's worth it. Not to mention it just feels good.

Holler if you hear me.


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## bigbadwulff (Jan 18, 2012)

Time to re-assess the work/pay/benefits/taxes/liability that drives manufacturers to other countries. There is no need for it!!


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

I must like bigbadwuff because it won't let me positive rep him anymore.  Glad you see the bigger picture!


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## OmaHaq (Jun 1, 2010)

It would be darn tough... you'd have to build it.

I am not sure if anyone makes cranksets in the US.
Is there a US seat maker?
Is there a US tire maker?
Does anyone make spokes in the US?

You could make your own cables, but I bet there isn't a housing maker in the US as well.


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## jeffgothro (Mar 10, 2007)

Standard Bike Company will make you any frame you want (Davenport, Iowa I believe they are located), although they are primarly a BMX company, they do MTB as well (custom order only).

I believe I was quoted frame prices start around 600.00$.

Contact.

Standard Byke Company


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## jeffgothro (Mar 10, 2007)

OmaHaq said:


> It would be darn tough... you'd have to build it.
> 
> I am not sure if anyone makes cranksets in the US.
> Is there a US seat maker?
> ...


American cranks.

Cooks Bros


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## 11 Bravo (Mar 12, 2004)

Spinning Lizard said:


> It is not about quality anymore, it is about trying to keep our country running by keeping as many dollars here as possible and good people employed, if you do not get that then move. I hope your job gets outsourced then maybe you will give a crap.


Agreed Spinning Lizard. I hope people start thinking a little more about supporting their neighbors, or at least their fellow countrymen. Too many reasons to list why it is harder to find stuff made in the U.S. Everything from environmental regulations and taxes to liability insurance. It is tough to run a manufacturing business here anymore. My hat is off to the companies that are still fighting to make it work.

I run into a lot of people who say they don't care where something is made as long as it is good and costs less. Those same people usually have a hissy fit about others driving an SUV wasting gas and polluting the environment. Of course they never want to talk about why they buy things made in places with almost no environmental regulations that are shipped half way around the world in a ship burning fossil fuel by the ton.

I was at an REI with my brother a couple of years ago. He starts laughing and shows me this green T shirt that says "Support Local Farming" on it and the tag says made in Vietnam.

There are a couple of other threads about this floating around recently. One was called something like I want to build a completely American made bike. Lots of components and frame makers listed in it.

None of it entry level BTW. Sorry OP.


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## Wasmachineman NL (Jan 31, 2012)

FireLikeIYA said:


> Drivetrain you are basically looking at Japan (Shimano) or China (Sram).


IIRC Sram is made in Taiwan, Shimano is made in Japan, Malaysia or China.


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## knutso (Oct 8, 2008)

Nations in a semi-peripheral position relative to the US, which produce items specifically to draw dollars into their country, should not be looked at as 'taking our jobs' but rather as supporting our higher standards of living and productivity.

We Americans are the ones benefitting most from trade with peripheral nations. Its clear if you look at the mind-boggling amount of goods and labor we receive in exchange for what we ourselves produce. An example would be: a US real estate agent sells a house and uses the commision to buy a sweet bike .. Seemingly, the RA agent didn't work 'hard' enough to build a top-to-bottom bike from scratch but because of the willingness/desperation of other nations intent on functioning as peripheral economies, the purchasing/consumption power of the American worker is magnified.

The strength of the dollar means the compensation I receive for my one day's work can buy the day's work of many. Hard to say that we are getting the raw end of the deal.


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## l84thsky (Aug 15, 2008)

*I've got a super high end MTB with NO Asian parts*

That's right, it can be done. I built it myself picking every single part out....doubters welcome.


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

l84thsky said:


> That's right, it can be done. I built it myself picking every single part out....doubters welcome.


Provide a picture and list of components...or it didn't happen


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

OmaHaq said:


> It would be darn tough... you'd have to build it.
> 
> I am not sure if anyone makes cranksets in the US.
> Is there a US seat maker?
> ...


Cranks
-Pauls
-White Industries

Seat
-Selle An-Atomica

Tires...nope

Spokes
-DT Swiss make some spokes in Colorado
-Wheelsmith
-Phil Wood


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

mtnbiker72 said:


> Provide a picture and list of components...or it didn't happen


Note that he said "no *Asian* parts"


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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

No Asian parts does not = made in US.


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## brent878 (Apr 17, 2007)

*I've got a super high end MTB with NO African parts*

That's right, it can be done. I built it myself picking every single part out....doubters welcome.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are NOT USA Citizens?
Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are USA Citizens?
Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are naturalized USA citizens?
Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are NOT naturalized USA citizens?
Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are naturalized USA citizens?
Is it consider Made in USA if everything is brought in oversea and assemble in the USA?
etc...


You don't sound like you were 'Made in the USA'


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## hardtail05 (Oct 11, 2005)

frame is a possibility, whole bike = much harder
entry level? not to my knowledge.
Yeti= made in USA, but not entry level.


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## l84thsky (Aug 15, 2008)

John Kuhl said:


> No Asian parts does not = made in US.


True, but why would I not want German, British, French, Swiss, Italian and Canadian parts. I only wanted to avoid cheap sh!t.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Wasmachineman NL said:


> IIRC Sram is made in Taiwan, Shimano is made in Japan, Malaysia or China.


I've never seen a Chinese made Shimano part and the only Malaysia parts I have seen are their pedals.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

hardtail05 said:


> frame is a possibility, whole bike = much harder
> entry level? not to my knowledge.
> Yeti= made in USA, but not entry level.


Yeti is not made in the USA. Turner, Ventana, Ellsworth, Foes, Lynskey, Lenz, Intense (except carbon), Titus (select models) and the high end guys like Moots, Seven, Erickson etc are made in the USA. I believe Trek still makes their carbon in the US but I am not sure.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

l84thsky said:


> True, but why would I not want German, British, French, Swiss, Italian and Canadian parts. I only wanted to avoid cheap sh!t.


The less Chinese stuff people buy the more options we will have in the future. USA first but German, British, French, Swiss, and Canadian parts are usually top shelf as well.

It's also nice knowing that you are not supporting an aggresive communist regime.


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## INeedGears! (Jul 29, 2010)

Trek makes very few bikes in Wisconsin anymore. Only a few of their highest level road bikes. Specifically, the Madone 6&7 series bikes. The rest is being produced overseas. All of their OCLV bikes were made here (well the frame was, the rest of the stuff, nope) until a couple of years ago.


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## big terry (Apr 22, 2012)

I cant afford an American-made boutique branded bike. that said, im giving it hell to scrimp, save, sell and do whatever i can in order to buy a bike that is going to cost me enough cash that i could buy two primarily asian-sourced bikes. why? because i want to do what i can in order to keep the economy at home going as strong as possible, and if it costs me more to do it then so be it.

yeah i know that a lot of parts on my bike are going to be non-American made. unless you really want to dump some serious coin, it isnt gonna happen. thats fine, i get it. but if i buy a tracer 29, that adds a little more job security for the dudes in temecula, instead of some guy in taiwan. yeah they both may need a job, but it is inconceivable (to me) to not make an effort to support an American in his job, when the opportunity arises.

i ride a taiwanese-manufactured bike now, and theres nothing wrong with it at all. it got me riding, and got me hooked on mtb, and it didnt cost 5 grand. the next one, i see no reason why not to go big and stay home.


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## Steven92 (Jul 2, 2012)

Moots makes phenominal bikes, and they are based out of steamboat, CO. They are pretty expensive though, but the bike will last you FOREVER! they are a titanium frame, and have stellar components. They are not exactly an entry level bike, but if you can scrape up the money, you will not have to buy another bike


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

big terry said:


> I cant afford an American-made boutique branded bike. that said, im giving it hell to scrimp, save, sell and do whatever i can in order to buy a bike that is going to cost me enough cash that i could buy two primarily asian-sourced bikes. why? because i want to do what i can in order to keep the economy at home going as strong as possible, and if it costs me more to do it then so be it.


I think you will find that an American-made bike costs about the same as an equivalant asian sourced bike (keyword being equivalant). USA made bikes are mid to high level and usually sport a better shock, suspension design, bearings, paint job and no hassle warranty. They also usually have forged bits in the frame so you can't compare them to a Giant Trance or Specialized FSR. If you compare MSRP's of USA made frames to equivalant asian sourced frames you are looking at roughly $0-400 difference... which isn't anywhere close to double the cost. It's also nice knowing that if you call the manufacturer for any questions or concerns that you may actually talk to the owner.


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## l84thsky (Aug 15, 2008)

*Here it is*



mtnbiker72 said:


> Provide a picture and list of components...or it didn't happen


By the way. my philosophy about not buying Asian products applies to EVERYTHING I buy.....again, doubters welcome.


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## brent878 (Apr 17, 2007)

l84thsky said:


> By the way. my philosophy about not buying Asian products applies to EVERYTHING I buy.....again, doubters welcome.


This thread is about entry level bikes made in the USA. Nothing on your bike is entry level and only a couple of the parts made in the USA. Nice bike though.


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## crazydkure (Jul 26, 2012)

what hapend whit Maverick?


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## brent878 (Apr 17, 2007)

crazydkure said:


> what hapend whit Maverick?


went under. I heard someone bought out the part stock for the forks so you can still get parts for a limited time.


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

l84thsky said:


> By the way. my philosophy about not buying Asian products applies to EVERYTHING I buy.....again, doubters welcome.


Well Done:thumbsup:


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

l84thsky said:


> By the way. my philosophy about not buying Asian products applies to EVERYTHING I buy.....again, doubters welcome.


Good job. Now, what about your computer?


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## hardtail05 (Oct 11, 2005)

FireLikeIYA said:


> *Yeti is not made in the USA*. Turner, Ventana, Ellsworth, Foes, Lynskey, Lenz, Intense (except carbon), Titus (select models) and the high end guys like Moots, Seven, Erickson etc are made in the USA. I believe Trek still makes their carbon in the US but I am not sure.


??? what do you mean ? I was in their factory a few years ago in Golden. ???
Maybe the new carbon ones? Mine is aluminum (main frame triangle) and says "Made in Colorado" - I am not sure about the carbon rear triangle, though ....


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## l84thsky (Aug 15, 2008)

There are no entry level bikes "Made in USA", we all know that. At least I have some USA parts. I would buy more if there were more.



brent878 said:


> This thread is about entry level bikes made in the USA. Nothing on your bike is entry level and only a couple of the parts made in the USA. Nice bike though.


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## PolishExperiment (May 14, 2011)

Not many entry level frames made in USA. 

A whole lot of smaller manufacturers make some of the best frames in the world in the USA.
Ellsworth, Lynskey, IF, Moots, Potts, etc.


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## eh steve (May 28, 2012)

manabiker said:


> Davinci are from Canada they make bikes there, I'm not sure if all bikes are made in Canada, eh?


Devinci (not davinci) and I'm fairly certain all the frames are welded in Canada (and they brag final assembly is all done in house too).

I'd love to find out for sure as it is surprising something like the entry level cameleon would be built in north american and be able to compete cost wise with all the other manufacturers that have contracted their entry level frames to Taiwan or other countries.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Nice bike! How do you like your $1400.00 rear hub? Is it worth the coin?


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## digital_exhaust (Sep 22, 2010)

FireLikeIYA said:


> Yeti is not made in the USA.





hardtail05 said:


> ??? what do you mean ? I was in their factory a few years ago in Golden. ???
> Maybe the new carbon ones? Mine is aluminum (main frame triangle) and says "Made in Colorado" - I am not sure about the carbon rear triangle, though ....


Have to agree with hardtail....

I live about five miles from the Yeti factory in Golden, and unless your talking about the origin of the aluminum (which I'm pretty sure is domestic), I can assure you that Yeti Cycles are made in Colorado.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

JimmyNeutron10101 said:


> Defined Made in USA.
> 
> because no big item products I can think of is made in the USA. It may say Made in the USA but how sure are you that the raw materials are from the USA? Did they mined the iron from a USA site? Did every chemical component in the paint come from a USA plant? Did the grease come from a USA plant that manufacture the grease using all USA chemicals in a USA lab?
> 
> ...


Lame.


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## BIGABIGD (Jul 24, 2012)

The higher end Cannondales are made in PA...not sure what level they start making them there. I know my $1800 Jekyll was made there.


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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

My 2008 Yeti 575 frame was made overseas.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Intense Company Page
Made in Temecula California


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## eh steve (May 28, 2012)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Intense Company Page
> Made in Temecula California


They make nice bikes (actually hoping I could find one for a good deal next time I was in the inland empire area), but no entry level bikes (part of the OP's question). Their cheapest FS frame is >$2K. Their hardtail frame is $679. That's basically the price of a complete entry level bike from Trek, Specialized, Jamis, Norco etc.


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## INeedGears! (Jul 29, 2010)

BIGABIGD said:


> The higher end Cannondales are made in PA...not sure what level they start making them there. I know my $1800 Jekyll was made there.


Cannondale hasn't made a frame in the US for 3+ years


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## Diesel8810 (May 17, 2012)

sfgiantsfan said:


> is it consider made in the usa if the entire company in the usa consist of asians that are not usa citizens?
> Is it consider made in the usa if the entire company in the usa consist of asians that are usa citizens?
> Is it consider made in the usa if the entire company in the usa consist of asians that are naturalized usa citizens?
> Is it consider made in the usa if the entire company in asia consist of all usa citizenship that are not naturalized usa citizens?
> ...


bingo!


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

INeedGears! said:


> Cannondale hasn't made a frame in the US for 3+ years


That is what I thought. I saw something funny or not so funny this weekend. I was at a bike riding trail that rents bikes at the head end. A big sign was displayed that they rented Cannondale bikes "Made in the USA". I thought hmm pretty sure they tucked their tale between their legs and ran off to China like the rest.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

As well, if I remember correctly Turner is looking at off-shore production.
The reason the RFX was still born is that the price SAPA wanted for production was so high that DT couldn't afford to sell it - a price of 3500+ per frame was bandied about at one time.

As for quality in NA mfg - Unfortunately it is not necessarily the best....

Prime example is Knolly and SAPA.
SAPA could not provide the materials and quality that Knolly wanted.
After having to dump an entire production run and loose the model year due to unacceptable QC from SAPA they decided to go off-shore. 

Noel (Knolly) stated that the tube-sets and mfg processes, now available to him overseas allows him to design stuff that couldn't be built on this side pond with our normally available current processes.

We have given our expertise and even cutting edge mfg technologies and equipment and have shipped them overseas. They have taken that and run with it while we sit around moaning about the situation we created.

I really wish it were different - I liked the idea my bike was built in Canada/US
...but we ARE the author of our own misfortune.

michael


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## nightops (Dec 17, 2004)

l84thsky said:


> True, but why would I not want German, British, French, Swiss, Italian and Canadian parts. I only wanted to avoid cheap sh!t.


Are you saying that Shimano and Sram are crappy and inferior to all your parts? I sense some subtle racism there.


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## eh steve (May 28, 2012)

mykel said:


> <snip>
> ...
> 
> Noel (Knolly) stated that the tube-sets and mfg processes, now available to him overseas allows him to design stuff that couldn't be built on this side pond with our normally available current processes.
> ...


'

I worked in the R&D side of a NA manf company. For certain items it was really hard to beat outsourcing for quality, quickness and price. Lots of the NA companies just haven't been able to keep up equipment and technology wise. Options were found as the product had to have sufficient US and NA content (final assembly was always done NA).

The reason price can't be touched is pretty obvious: either they are using low paid (slave) labour, or they have enough throughput to afford automating large quantities of the process.

And of course low price buys them more business, which is more revenue, which is more money to spend on the latest tech.

Do you think Straitline Components would be where they are now if they didn't have aerospace and medical contracts? Good profitable business (in non-consumer areas that are higher margin) is what I'm guessing allowed them to get into top of the line state of the art cnc. If you are in consumer products you are often competing for the bottom. It's hard to compete when your entry level bike costs $200 more than the competitor purely due to labour costs.

Shipping is starting to be a factor for some products now though. Price Rupert BC is getting a lot more port action from China due to the 2 day quicker sailing time as compared to US ports (less fuel and lower risk being at sea less time).

Just checked the bottom of my wife's Devinci (since I mentioned them earlier). The frame is made in Vietnam.


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## mykel (Jul 31, 2006)

+ rep

The only thing that I don't fully agree with is the slave labour. 
Taiwanese welders are highly skilled and are well paid within their economic strata.
This may not be the case in other countries.

...And it just may get a bit worse before better, China is now losing business to lower cost asian countries and some in developing Africa as Chineses labour costs are rising...

However I have heard the same that you mention regarding shipping. The cost benefits of over-seas production are eaten by higher shipping costs, as well as higher production oversight costs due to being a large pond away. This is the main reason that high-quality Asian production is not any cheaper...

So, if shipping costs becomes a bigger issue as we believe it will, this hopefully will spur manufactures to move production back home. Problem is then we have the lack of tech for the actual materials. So in the meantime do we then import the tube-sets and weld here, until we regain our mfg strength?

IMO I think we have a ways to go before this happens. There is still too much emphasis placed on saving a penny or two by moving overseas. Board rooms are still applauding these steps as cost savings... (Look at Apple - how many billions in the bank do you need) However if everything is then produced overseas, how the he|| are we supposed to buy it with no job or a McJob that does not even provide a decent standard of living? If they want to continue to sell their products here, maybe they should take a look at the long-game. 

It's a mugs game.

cheers

michael


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## quarup (Sep 24, 2012)

I respect others that care about where their bikes are manufactured. I personally care -- not just bikes, but also electronics and other things. To me it's more than just quality or cost, although those are important factors too.

Look at workers committing suicide and being allegedly beaten by guards at Foxxconn (builds iPhone, Xbox, etc. parts) after being forced to work overtime in China. Even if those facts aren't completely true, it is nearly impossible to know for certain because the Chinese government blatantly controls the flow of information. I try to vote with my dollar and minimize buying stuff coming from China proper, although I'm not always disciplined.

That being said, it seems most bike factories are based in Taiwan, which seems to have significantly better employee treatment and transparency of information. But I believe everyone should make their own decisions based on what's important to them.


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## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

dubbreak said:


> Devinci (not davinci) and I'm fairly certain all the frames are welded in Canada (and they brag final assembly is all done in house too).
> 
> I'd love to find out for sure as it is surprising something like the entry level cameleon would be built in north american and be able to compete cost wise with all the other manufacturers that have contracted their entry level frames to Taiwan or other countries.


I think rockie mountain bikes say the same thing about being make in Canada but not 100% sure.


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## NastyHabits (Mar 14, 2007)

Chris King has a great company right here in the US of A. Gives his workers full heath coverage, flex-time,etc. I will be able to give my Chris King headset to my grandson. That is unless the standards change again. Ever heard of a Chris King hub breaking? My Thompson Elite stem is 9 years old. It indestructible. I'll keep it as long as I have a fork to clamp it on.

Good stuff can still be made, but people have forgotten "you get what you pay for". Take clothing. My original Polar Tech fleece vest still hasn't pilled. I've thrown away several others since. I used to get 4 or 5 years out of a pair of Levi jeans. Now I'm lucky if they last a year.

Then there is the light bulb that's been burning in a firehouse in Livermore, CA since 1902. I'm just sayin'....


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## cobba (Apr 5, 2007)

Factory and Supplier Guides

2012: http://www.bicycleretailer.com/sites/default/files/content/Factory_10_1_11.pdf

2011: www.bicycleretailer.com/downloads/Factory_10_1_10.pdf


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## wsmac (Sep 5, 2010)

JimmyNeutron10101 said:


> Defined Made in USA.
> 
> because no big item products I can think of is made in the USA. It may say Made in the USA but how sure are you that the raw materials are from the USA? Did they mined the iron from a USA site? Did every chemical component in the paint come from a USA plant? Did the grease come from a USA plant that manufacture the grease using all USA chemicals in a USA lab?
> 
> ...


I see people slamming this guy for this post... but why?
Hell... he even put 'smilies' on the end... supposedly to keep it friendly?
Seriously... the OP asked specifically about bikes *made* in the USA.
Never specified whether foreign made parts were ok or not.

This whole debate about buying USA-made items gets a bit silly... really.
The idea that if you buy foreign made items, especially those made in China, you are robbing Americans of jobs; sure... looks good if you only think it through superficially and emotionally.
Trouble is... it's not that simple.
I don't have a degree in economics or something like global trading and such, but even I know it's much more than just buying something assembled in the USA.

It's easy to ask for a bike made in the U.S.of A. while being quiet about where the raw materials come from.
I hear the same crap from people who ride Harley Yuppie Davidsons.
Sure... it's an American company, but depending on how patriotic you want to get... it's really not an American-Made motorcycle.
It's an American-Assembled motorcycle.
Just not very romantic and buyer-inspiring I guess to advertise, "Our products are ALMOST 100% Made In The USA!":skep:

So... same thing with mountain bikes.
Unless the carbon fiber, steel and aluminum from which the frames are assembled come from mills/plants within the U.S., I don't see how you can truly call it a bike "Made in the USA!".
But most folks will... because they like to pick-and-choose a nice comfortable platform from which to stand while crying about American jobs.

I see lots of folks who just love buying cheap food too... food imported from outside the US... while we subsidize US farms to overproduce while maintaining this image of the poor US farming family competing with beef from South America, fruit from all over the world, etc.
Not sure how many of the Americans who cry about the family farms, and buying USA, actually dig into the background of their food... especially if they buy the stuff at the Dollar Store.
The only ways I can think of to actually know you are buying US grown food is to buy it directly from the farm or grow it yourself.
I do that to some degree... I buy when I can from our local Farmer's Market (and I know most of the farmers personally). We have dairy and beef farms locally and some of our markets even sell the milk products and beef from those families.

Spin your argument how you like... but JimmyNeutron10101's post was actually one of the best here... in my American opinion anyway (technically I AM an American even if I wasn't produced in the USA... just naturalized-42yrs ago... but then my father was purportedly an American Air Force Airman so I am at least 1/2 Genuine American product I supose )

I want the US to have a strong, economy and be as self-sufficient as possible.
I do buy as much *ACTUAL* US-made/produced items as I possibly can depending on how much money I feel I can toss into the pot. Sometimes I will pay more for a local item than for one made somewhere else... to include outside the US.
But I don't go waxing all patriotic about it when I realize it's mostly an empty argument... the one about ruining our country by buying items from outside our borders.
There's so much more to it than just waving the flag around and shouting at each other... hypocrite vs the alleged un-American American. 

Oops... better put my smilies on so you know I'm not just another angry American... LOL
:thumbsup:


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

JimmyNeutron10101 said:


> Defined Made in USA.
> 
> because no big item products I can think of is made in the USA. It may say Made in the USA but how sure are you that the raw materials are from the USA? Did they mined the iron from a USA site? Did every chemical component in the paint come from a USA plant? Did the grease come from a USA plant that manufacture the grease using all USA chemicals in a USA lab?
> 
> ...


Here you go: 
Complying with the Made in USA Standard


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

wsmac said:


> I see people slamming this guy for this post... but why?....
> ....
> ....Oops... better put my smilies on so you know I'm not just another angry American... LOL
> :thumbsup:


Made in USA means all or virtually all of the product was made in the USA including sourced parts, however, there are products that are exceptions like vehicles as they are required to list % of origin. It's also more than being patriotic in the terms of helping your fellow country man out. Its patriotc because the government collects more taxes. If you haven't been paying attention lately, our government wants to drastically increase taxes. If we were all buying USA made products then taxes wouldn't be an issue. To me its so bad now that I don't give to charity, I buy American... it's a win-win situation. Someone gets a job and feeds their family while the government can collect enough taxes to stay afloat. Either way we are going to be paying the taxes so you might as well buy American. :thumbsup: If you can't afford to buy an American made product or they just don't make a particular item here then at least buy from an American company.

As far as food goes, fruits and vegetables list the country of origin so no need to go to a farmers market.  (fyi: pesticides for US produce are regulated but regulations are different outside the US and they dont need to meet our standards to import them here)

:thumbsup::ihih::cornut::yesnod:


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## wsmac (Sep 5, 2010)

FireLikeIYA said:


> Made in USA... ... here)
> 
> :thumbsup::ihih::cornut::yesnod:


ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALREADY!
Enough with the smilies! I get the message!

Creepy.... all those little round faces making.... faces.... at me :skep:


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mykel said:


> + rep
> 
> The only thing that I don't fully agree with is the slave labour.
> Taiwanese welders are highly skilled and are well paid within their economic strata.
> ...


This guy gets it.

The US's "power" will never be manufacturing, it's innovation and coming up with new technology, new ways of doing things, new processes, new ways to increase efficiency (without necessarily being able to employ them with no end). Anyone who thinks we can have a factory crank out the same widgets for 40 years is just not living in reality. Machines will eventually be invented that can do a worker's job, and that machine doesn't need health care or retirement, so what do you do with the displaced worker? It's a good question, and not easily answered. The point of this is that SOMEONE SOMEWHERE will ALWAYS come up with a cheaper way to make or do something. The only thing that is constant in business is change, the second you rest on your heels, you get your a$$ handed to you. Finally US automakers are making somewhat competitive cars with decent mileage, but this is after nearly going out of business, federal mandates to increase mileage, and simply having their a$$es handed to them by asian manufacturers. Once we isolate, our businesses have no reason to improve and innovate as mentioned above, and then when something finally does come along, they are less able to adapt and compete, not to mention that when we isolate we got a company manufacturing and selling here, but other companies are manufacturing and selling ALL OVER THE WORLD, which makes them much more competitive and they are able to grow much bigger than our isolated US-only companies.

As an example, I blame Bike Shops to some extent for their own hardships. The internet came. A few very keen bike shops opened E-stores. THOSE are the innovators that deserved (at that moment in time) to not go out of business. Bike shops have to make themselves competitive, they have to find new ways of doing business that attracts customers and business, they have to be active. Otherwise, if they are sitting there trying to do "what they've always done" and complain about the internet retailers, they deserve to go out of business. Things they can and should do: have group rides, have a website with parts inventory and local info, participate in races and events, build a pump-track (like behind a local shop where I lived in AZ did), have bike maintenance clinics-maybe at colleges and high schools, find ways to offer things and attract customers, and so on. It's not my job to keep them in business, it's their job to offer something that the public wants. You constantly have to reach out to new markets and come up with new ideas. How many bike shops have you heard complain about E-retailers? How many have actually done something about it? There are a few, and those are where the heart of US innovation and spirit lies.

In the end, it sometimes costs more to build stuff here, the shipping as stated above is affecting that, which is a nice side-effect of the oil prices and increasing standards of living, but if you really want to "support american businesses" like the OP intends, you have to accept paying MORE for LESS. You have to accept a lower standard of living and your dollar bill doing less for you. That's not human nature though, we are pretty driven to maximize value and have a "better standard of living" for ourselves and our kids, even if it means sacrificing the long term for the short term materialistic gain.


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

There are some strong feelings in this thread about bikes (or goods in general) made in the USA. Many writers to this thread have strong opinions, and for good reason, the issue affects everyone.

Most of us know that globalization means outsourcing local jobs. Why have a factory in the US when you can move it to Mexico or south east asia where there is a docile and cheap labour force working in what we would call horrendous and grim working conditions. No secrets here, lots of examples of companies doing this. 

One point to note is the US arms industry does not suffer from this phenomenon. The US designs and manufactures the most technically advanced weaponry in the world, from the M16 to the F22 and everything in between, all made in the USA, so there is nothing wrong with technically advanced mass production in the US. It should be noted that US spending on the military is almost equal to what the rest of the world combined spends on military.

The real issue of Not made in the USA is the total lack of democracy in the USA. The US is only democratic if you are a corporation, because then you get the full weight of the US government acting on your behalf. The examples are everywhere: 
Banks are too large to fail - cited in the Wall St Journal - but if that is the case (and it is) wouldn't you want to make them smaller? After the $750 billion bail out package that Bush handed out the Banks became even bigger.
Oil and Gas - this industry is now exempt from the clean water act. There's a good idea, the business of hydraulic fracking just became much less risky, industry can frack away and not worry about clean water anymore, they are exempt. 
Retail - look at Wal Mart - talk about a feudal system dating back to the middle ages, Wal Mart is a private company owned by the Waltons, a family of 5. One of the richest families in the world worth a combined $40 billion. they have approx 2 million peasants working for them called employees. If you work at Wal Mart and are not the CEO or part of his exec team then you are living around the poverty line because that is what Wal Mart pays, poverty wages, no benefits and they work and treat you like a dog, no better off than peasants from the middle ages. 
Education - the press goes on and on about how bad the education system is, what a drain on society it is. Take any business anywhere and cut funding and see how long it functions. In the US the trick is to cut funding to any social program and keep on cutting funding until it is completely broken and then everyone gives up on it and lets private industry take over.

There is no democracy for the people in the US, its all there for the corporation. To quote a famous individual there is only one party in the US and it is the Business party which has two factions called republicans and democrats. 

In a real democracy people would have a say about where their tax dollars go, about their level of pay, about their health care system etc etc. But you don't in the US or even in Canada though Americans should note that somehow Canada manages to have a viable system of medicare that though not perfect does a good job of aiding the population without bankrupting the country. Americans could have something similar but are stuck with a fraudulent and highly inefficient private health insurance industry. 

There it is, people have no real say anymore. Electing a president and running a campaign costs billions of dollars and the only place you can get billions of dollars is from the corporate sector which if you think about it puts governments even further into the corporate pocket. As a last point check out the credentials of any white house economic advisor since the 1970's - they all have a finance background, all of them. The finance industry has been well looked after and continues to be well looked after, crisis after crisis.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

Man I kind of disagree with quite a bit in these last few posts.

1. We have traditionally manufactured some of the best products on the planet.
2. Our manufacturing might is what brought us into WWII. It's what won WWII. 

The one thing I do agree with is that we generally can not do it cheaper. Not always but generally things made in China are inferior to their U.S. manufactured counter parts. I think bicycles are probably one of a handful of exceptions. Electronics are inferior, metals are generally inferior. Chinese stainless is complete garbage. Home electrics made in China are garbage. Most computers coming out of China are garbage, excepting apple. American manufacturing when it is done properly produces some of the finest products in the world.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

knutso said:


> Nations in a semi-peripheral position relative to the US, which produce items specifically to draw dollars into their country, should not be looked at as 'taking our jobs' but rather as supporting our higher standards of living and productivity.
> 
> We Americans are the ones benefitting most from trade with peripheral nations. Its clear if you look at the mind-boggling amount of goods and labor we receive in exchange for what we ourselves produce. An example would be: a US real estate agent sells a house and uses the commision to buy a sweet bike .. Seemingly, the RA agent didn't work 'hard' enough to build a top-to-bottom bike from scratch but because of the willingness/desperation of other nations intent on functioning as peripheral economies, the purchasing/consumption power of the American worker is magnified.
> 
> The strength of the dollar means the compensation I receive for my one day's work can buy the day's work of many. Hard to say that we are getting the raw end of the deal.


Well put. The irony of this thread is that if we only bought American-made goods, our standard of living would be MUCH lower, and very few people would have enough disposable income for such niceties as a mountain bike.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

No this is wrong. You create an endless cycle of devouring the middle class in America buying internationally made goods. You weaken our skills and power as a nation. Manufacturing is the engine that drives wealth and the middle class. The view cited above is a short term personal gain economic financial view that has long term dire consequences for the economy and the nation's position as a world power at large. Real estate agent? Really? One of the most overpaid low skill professions in the U.S.. I'm all over outsourcing those guys. LOL.


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

JACKL said:


> Well put. The irony of this thread is that if we only bought American-made goods, our standard of living would be MUCH lower, and very few people would have enough disposable income for such niceties as a mountain bike.


Actually if more goods were made in the USA then everyone would have a MUCH higher standard of living. There would be more people gainfully employed in the economy.

But that is not what corporate america wants, they want profits not gainful employment.

There is no real trade with peripheral countries, it is mostly internal trade within a corporate entity. If AT&T decides to buy 1000 Apple computers for its new office it is simply a buy sell between two US companies. Those 1000 computers coming from Asia are entered into the import/export statistics but its not really what you would call trade.


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

FX4 said:


> No this is wrong. You create an endless cycle of devouring the middle class in America buying internationally made goods. You weaken our skills and power as a nation. Manufacturing is the engine that drives wealth and the middle class. The view cited above is a short term personal gain economic financial view that has long dire consequences for the economy and the nation's position as a world power at large. Real estate agent? Really? One of the most overpaid low skill professions in the U.S.. I'm all over outsourcing those guys. LOL.


You are correct on all fronts except the US's position as a world power. There is no other country in the world that comes close to the US in military might, its an absolute no brainer that the US has the largest and most technically advanced military in all of human history. The US has a tight grip on the oil resources of the middle east further strengthening its position as the worlds biggest power.

as for real estate agents they would have have it pretty tough right now.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

My point is I don't think it will stay this way if we keep exporting our manufacturing. The ability of manufacturing nations to develop a military industrial complex such as ours increases as their manufacturing and technology prowess increases. Ours slows as we manufacture less and less. What I mean is fewer and fewer Americans know how to do things, I mean really do things, our ability to be innovative and keep our military at the top of the food chain is directly proportional to manufacturing in the U.S.. Do I hear Rome in the background saying been there, done that, it failed?


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

Oh and BTW, I have come up with just about everything made of top quality gear to build a U.S. made bike. Your wallet is going to hurt but it's doable.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

stepitup_onenotch said:


> Actually if more goods were made in the USA then everyone would have a MUCH higher standard of living. There would be more people gainfully employed in the economy.
> 
> But that is not what corporate america wants, they want profits not gainful employment.
> 
> There is no real trade with peripheral countries, it is mostly internal trade within a corporate entity. If AT&T decides to buy 1000 Apple computers for its new office it is simply a buy sell between two US companies. Those 1000 computers coming from Asia are entered into the import/export statistics but its not really what you would call trade.


More correctly Wall Street wants higher profit and manufacturing abroad is a way to achieve it. Unfortunately contract manufacturing is the undoing of many corporations. Although in general I completely agree with you.


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## bigbadwulff (Jan 18, 2012)

And pretty soon you won't have Twinkies made in the USA. Some people think it's better to not have a job than try to milk everything they can out of a company. When will the American worker wake up and smell reality?!
Liberals are getting exactly what they are asking for. No companies, no jobs, no reliable energy source. Quit yer *****in, this is what you wanted. You made this bed, now lay in it!


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## NastyHabits (Mar 14, 2007)

bigbadwulff said:


> And pretty soon you won't have Twinkies made in the USA. Some people think it's better to not have a job than try to milk everything they can out of a company. When will the American worker wake up and smell reality?!
> Liberals are getting exactly what they are asking for. No companies, no jobs, no reliable energy source. Quit yer *****in, this is what you wanted. You made this bed, now lay in it!


The truth is Hostess is failing because of bad management. It is not run by bakers, but by bankers. Hostess is owned by a hedge fund and for the last 8 years has run it into the ground. Now without a clue how to fix things, they are just going to sell off it's assets and take the money and run. It is not the unions fault.

I had a non-union profession - IT, I got continually downsized and out sourced until I was making less than when I started 15 years ago. Adjusted for inflation, I was making less than my public sector job in 1996. I WISH I was in a union.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

NastyHabits said:


> The truth is Hostess is failing because of bad management. It is not run by bakers, but by bankers. Hostess is owned by a hedge fund and for the last 8 years has run it into the ground. Now without a clue how to fix things, they are just going to sell off it's assets and take the money and run. It is not the unions fault.
> 
> I had a non-union profession - IT, I got continually downsized and out sourced until I was making less than when I started 15 years ago. Adjusted for inflation, I was making less than my public sector job in 1996. I WISH I was in a union.


No the truth is the hedge funds bought up the debt of failing Hostess and tried to save them. They still felt their was value and relieved the company of half the debt it owed. In the end the unions wanted more for the employees than the market will bear. The reality is the union feels it's labor is worth more than it is. Now as far as your comments on IT, I don't know what part you are in but IT has done very well for me over the years. I had one shop go union and I left because of it. I told my employer I don't want this on my resume and gave notice. Perhaps you are not keeping your skills up to date?


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

Not everyone can work IT and not everyone is cut out to be a global account manager. There is nothing wrong with being a clerk in a Wal Mart for example, but what is wrong is the wages and lack of benefits that are paid to said worker, especially when the owners have more money than they know what to do with. And that is something the govt could easily change. The govt did deregulate the banking industry to the benefit of nobody except the banks. Why cant they regulate Wal Mart to pay its workers better wages and benefits?

Not sure why anyone is arguing about liberals, there is very little difference between democrats and republicans, it doesn't matter who is in the white house because it is corporate america who pull the strings, the american people are second and third class citizens.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

bigbadwulff said:


> And pretty soon you won't have Twinkies made in the USA. Some people think it's better to not have a job than try to milk everything they can out of a company. When will the American worker wake up and smell reality?!
> Liberals are getting exactly what they are asking for. No companies, no jobs, no reliable energy source. Quit yer *****in, this is what you wanted. You made this bed, now lay in it!


Unions do get greedy and sometimes seem more interested in saving the union more than the actual worker. But Hostess made products that aren't as popular as they used to be and frankly they just didn't keep up with the times.

Quick question: why do liberal blue states have most of the biggest companies and jobs? I'm in the SF Bay Area, we have Apple, Google, Facebook, Cisco, EBay, etc (I could go on) right out the door? The reddest states have the highest numbers of people on welfare and they always seem to lack good jobs other than say chicken killing ...

I think it may be time for you to turn off Fox News and except reality, unlike Karl Rove.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

SS Hack said:


> Unions do get greedy and sometimes seem more interested in saving the union more than the actual worker. But Hostess made products that aren't as popular as they used to be and frankly they just didn't keep up with the times.
> 
> Quick question: why do liberal blue states have most of the biggest companies and jobs? I'm in the SF Bay Area, we have Apple, Google, Facebook, Cisco, EBay, etc (I could go on) right out the door? The reddest states have the highest numbers of people on welfare and they always seem to lack good jobs other than say chicken killing ...
> 
> I think it may be time for you to turn off Fox News and except reality, unlike Karl Rove.


Umm, as a Bay Area native I can say safely that manufacturing has moved to right to work states like North Carolina as well as off shore while states like California lose manufacturing jobs at a massive rate. They don't call the blue Northeast the rust belt for no reason...


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

FX4 said:


> Umm, as a Bay Area native I can say safely that manufacturing has moved to right to work states like North Carolina as well as off shore while states like California lose manufacturing jobs at a massive rate. They don't call the blue Northeast the rust belt for no reason...


As a Bay Area native, most of our manufacturing has moved off shore actually (North Carolina is still too expensive) - which is sad. But this idea that liberals have chased all the jobs away is absurd. I'll bet the economic output of the Bay Area is much greater than the entire state of North Carolina - heck, I bet Apple has enough cash on hand to buy that state and a couple more.


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## Mojo Troll (Jun 3, 2004)

Keep in mind SF and NYC are two of the most expensive places in the country to live. Both states have more than their fair share of problems.

If Wal Mart does'nt provide a million 4th grade educated works employement. Who will? My family and I choose not to shop at WM due to the quality of their product's. Not their business practices.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

FX4 said:


> Umm, as a Bay Area native I can say safely that manufacturing has moved to right to work states like North Carolina as well as off shore while states like California lose manufacturing jobs at a massive rate. They don't call the blue Northeast the rust belt for no reason...


That's because some people still don't really know what the USs power really is. It WAS manufacturing at one time, as we were "ahead" of the world in that way. These ways powerhouses in East Asia and other places can manufacture whatever they want, and it will be on par with what we can make. Apple, Google, and all those companies, they invent "new stuff". That's where it's at. Just look at the "app" market now! Otherwise, someone is always going to manufacture things cheaper.

At some point, it's ridiculous and the corporation is not attempting to run a successful business, they are just trying to increase shareholder value. The two do not go hand in hand. I doubt there are a lot of examples of unions demanding unreasonable wages and benefits, but at some point, it's better for a company to not exist rather than barely squeak by paying substandard wages. Then the "blood" of industry and innovation is renewed and another company can spring up in it's wake.


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## 11 Bravo (Mar 12, 2004)

Jayem said:


> That's because some people still don't really know what the USs power really is. It WAS manufacturing at one time, as we were "ahead" of the world in that way. These ways powerhouses in East Asia and other places can manufacture whatever they want, and it will be on par with what we can make. Apple, Google, and all those companies, they invent "new stuff". That's where it's at. Just look at the "app" market now! Otherwise, someone is always going to manufacture things cheaper.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> .


I hear this explanation of the "better" business model a lot. Basically, the U.S. will have the better jobs and make the real money. The problem with that is that not everyone is an inventor or designer. Not everyone likes to work with computers. One persons idea of a better job is something the next person will hate. It really reminds me of the "service economy" BS that all the smart idiots were blathering about 20 years ago.

More to the point though is looking at how many people are employed in manufacturing operations. There is a research paper that was published by the California Research Bureau in the late 90's. It has some very interesting numbers, but just a couple of examples I remember. Between 1987 and 1995, IBM reduced it's U.S. workforce from 406,000 to 202,000. General Motors had 800,000 employees in 1980, and had 450,000 in 1990. There are just tons of other examples like these if you look into it. These companies continued to design and develop here in the U.S., but much of the manufacturing was outsourced. Do you really believe that 350,000 former G.M. assembly line workers went on to a second career as a software engineer?

Go back to college and get an education. that will fix them up right. Why do you think wages for college degree jobs are going down? Maybe more people with degrees than there are jobs that require them?

Honestly, large manufacturing operations are excellent jobs for people without specialized skill sets. When a high school graduate with basically no specialized training can go to work on an assembly line hanging parts on a car as it goes by, or running a stamp press turning a couple bucks worth of sheet metal into a several hundred dollar fender, they are being productive, making money for the company, and in the process make a pretty good pay check and benefits for themselves. Jobs like those allowed them to make enough money to buy a home, raise a family, buy a car, go out to dinner and so on. And they could do all that without having to run up $30 or $40 thousand dollars in student loans.

As those jobs go away, those people are working at the X-Mart for a fraction of the pay. The reason X-mart is doing so much business is that half the people in town are broke and trying save pennies on any bill they can. Of course half the town is broke because so many of the jobs are gone.

The other stripe of X-mart shopper are people that still make a decent wage, but shop where they can get the lowest price. Hey, after all, it really doesn't matter where the stuff is made since it is a global economy anyway right?

To some of the posters that have said it is stupid to pay more for a bike frame that is made in the U.S. because maybe the tubeset wasn't made here, or maybe the ore wasn't mined here, I have to ask. Do you really think there is no value in employing a skilled welder in your own neighborhood because the tubes he is welding were made somewhere else?

Sorry if this comes off as a rant, but I know too many people that have been affected by this very thing and it is near and dear to me. Especially when people tell me that I really don't understand how these thing work.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

You are exactly right. It goes way beyond low skilled labor on the line being employed at good wages too. There are all the professionals, management, IT, etc. that don't have jobs either. Really if you want to get down to the bottom line it's people rationalizing not supporting their own economy. I find it kind of funny often these same guys are complaining about how the economy sucks and how they can't find a good paying job. Well duh! Personally I buy as much made in the U.S. as I reasonably can. When it comes to cars, ironically the Japanese brands often produce more U.S. jobs than their American counterparts. Bicycles I'm still figuring it out. Twelve years ago it was not a problem buying a U.S. made bike, now for the most part you are over 2k for a road bike and 5k for a mountain bike.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

SS Hack said:


> As a Bay Area native, most of our manufacturing has moved off shore actually (North Carolina is still too expensive) - which is sad. But this idea that liberals have chased all the jobs away is absurd. I'll bet the economic output of the Bay Area is much greater than the entire state of North Carolina - heck, I bet Apple has enough cash on hand to buy that state and a couple more.


You would be surprised at the number of companies that used to manufacture in California now doing it in North Carolina. No it's not cheap, but it's doable and profitable. North Carolina has a strong manufacturing economy. They keep the unions out and regulations down to a reasonable level.


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## Tone's (Nov 12, 2011)

JimmyNeutron10101 said:


> Defined Made in USA.
> 
> because no big item products I can think of is made in the USA. It may say Made in the USA but how sure are you that the raw materials are from the USA? Did they mined the iron from a USA site? Did every chemical component in the paint come from a USA plant? Did the grease come from a USA plant that manufacture the grease using all USA chemicals in a USA lab?
> 
> ...


Jimmy, with all due respect, im pretty sure the OP asked if ''any bikes were made in the US'' i didnt see him ask if every component down to the grease was made there, thats just ridiculous, of course every component is not gonna be made there, and then to go on and talk about whether the people that made it are naturalised USA citizens etc etc, Jimmy are you just takin da piss, lol.:skep::skep::skep:


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Mojo Troll said:


> Keep in mind SF and NYC are two of the most expensive places in the country to live. Both states have more than their fair share of problems.
> 
> If Wal Mart does'nt provide a million 4th grade educated works employement. Who will? My family and I choose not to shop at WM due to the quality of their product's. Not their business practices.


The education system has failed those millions of Walmart workers.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

FX4 said:


> You would be surprised at the number of companies that used to manufacture in California now doing it in North Carolina. No it's not cheap, but it's doable and profitable. North Carolina has a strong manufacturing economy. They keep the unions out and regulations down to a reasonable level.


Even if we banned all unions and starting dumping toxins in our creeks, it would never be a good deal to manufacture in the land of $500k houses.

N. Carolina's GDP is ranked 10th in the US, which shows they're doing something right. Their per capita GDP is only ranked 31 which shows lower wages and lower productivity on average.

They're also still behind a couple "rust belt" states and California blows them and most countries out of the water of course.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

Yes both are true and NC still has some of the old South about it, but it is changing fast. Some rust belt states like Pa where I live are working hard to change. California is just a mess. When I grew up there it was the third largest economy in the world and had a surplus budget. Now look at it. High unemployment and deficits for as far as the eye can see. It's all but officially bankrupt and the citizens voted to drive the wealthy out. Many of the state's most successful will leave when the new taxes on the wealthier kick in. What a mess.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

FX4 said:


> Yes both are true and NC still has some of the old South about it, but it is changing fast. Some rust belt states like Pa where I live are working hard to change. California is just a mess. When I grew up there it was the third largest economy in the world and had a surplus budget. Now look at it. High unemployment and deficits for as far as the eye can see. It's all but officially bankrupt and the citizens voted to drive the wealthy out. Many of the state's most successful will leave when the new taxes on the wealthier kick in. What a mess.


You'd think Cane Creek could still make headsets in NC given the superior labor environment - last one I got was Asia of course.

California has been going down the tubes for 40 years; yet we still invent everything that matters (iPhones and mountain biking come to mind) ... and that's what will move the state forward - not low wage manufacturing jobs. California is a boom and bust state like no other - oddly silicon valley companies are hiring again and we're leading the housing recovery.

Now to the question that really matters ... do we mountain bike, surf or ski the day after turkey day?


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

Manufacturing jobs are high wage and innovators will stop coming to California for a greener business pastures. I would remind you that Michigan at one time was the hub of technology and manufacturing, look at it now. California is headed down a worse path. It's already happening. You can rationalize NC any way you want but the facts are they survived the recession rather well. 

California invented a lot of things, my generation lays claim to a good chunk of it, but what has happened out there recently? Not a whole lot. The last great thing to come out of silicon valley was the ipad. Jobs is dead and now Apple starts its slow decline to mediocrity as has been the case with most valley companies when their driving visionary is gone. I love California, it's just not the land to prosper it was only a few years ago and I don't see it happening again. The citizens are busy building a welfare state instead of figuring out how to maintain prosperity. I know I'm not going back because they want too much of my family's hard earned money, I think this is true for a lot of people. And I don't think prosperity will head back to the state until they figure out how to manufacture in the state profitably again. I am not aware of a broad robust economic recovery where manufacturing did not drive it, excepting a few exploitations of natural resources. Something you can't do in California either.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

FX4 said:


> Manufacturing jobs are high wage and innovators will stop coming to California for a greener business pastures. I would remind you that Michigan at one time was the hub of technology and manufacturing, look at it now. California is headed down a worse path. It's already happening. You can rationalize NC any way you want but the facts are they survived the recession rather well.
> 
> California invented a lot of things, my generation lays claim to a good chunk of it, but what has happened out there recently? Not a whole lot. The last great thing to come out of silicon valley was the ipad. Jobs is dead and now Apple starts its slow decline to mediocrity as has been the case with most valley companies when their driving visionary is gone. I love California, it's just not the land to prosper it was only a few years ago and I don't see it happening again. The citizens are busy building a welfare state instead of figuring out how to maintain prosperity. I know I'm not going back because they want too much of my family's hard earned money, I think this is true for a lot of people. And I don't think prosperity will head back to the state until they figure out how to manufacture in the state profitably again. I am not aware of a broad robust economic recovery where manufacturing did not drive it, excepting a few exploitations of natural resources. Something you can't do in California either.


I think your thinking is stuck in the 1950s - California's last couple booms were not lead by manufacturing. Michigan never had a diversifed economy - California does. Manufacturing jobs are low wage compared to tech jobs - innovation is where California still leads. Globalization will always force companies to cheaper countries to produce goods (see Cane Creek example) - some jobs are already leaving China.

The CEOs of Silicon Valley (at least the ones I've talked too) plan to stay because they just can't get skilled workers in other states and frankly the CEOs want to live in the Bay Area.

As a 4th generation native, I would be happy to see more people leave at any rate.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

SS Hack said:


> I think your thinking is stuck in the 1950s - California's last couple booms were not lead by manufacturing. Michigan never had a diversifed economy - California does. Manufacturing jobs are low wage compared to tech jobs - innovation is where California still leads. Globalization will always force companies to cheaper countries to produce goods (see Cane Creek example) - some jobs are already leaving China.
> 
> The CEOs of Silicon Valley (at least the ones I've talked too) plan to stay because they just can't get skilled workers in other states and frankly the CEOs want to live in the Bay Area.
> 
> As a 4th generation native, I would be happy to see more people leave at any rate.


This is completely not true. Manufacturing drove California's economy in the 90s. I was in high tech and we still manufactured most things there. I don't care if it was ASICs or routers, or computers, a good chunk was built in California. My head is not in the wrong place and we already tried the service economy in the 80s. It didn't work. It won't work this time. Show me a robust economy based on services. It doesn't exist. As things stand now we are building a two tier economy, the have and have not. The middle class is shrinking at an alarming rate. People can rationalize buying cheap imported goods any way they want but it will come home to roost and it is. Anyhow this has started to get way off topic.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

FX4 said:


> This is completely not true. Manufacturing drove California's economy in the 90s. I was in high tech and we still manufactured most things there. I don't care if it was ASICs or routers, or computers, a good chunk was built in California. My head is not in the wrong place and we already tried the service economy in the 80s. It didn't work. It won't work this time. Show me a robust economy based on services. It doesn't exist. As things stand now we are building a two tier economy, the have and have not. The middle class is shrinking at an alarming rate. People can rationalize buying cheap imported goods any way they want but it will come home to roost and it is. Anyhow this has started to get way off topic.


We've had other cycles since the 90s. I do agree we need more manufacturing and I always try to buy stuff made in America and/or other advanced countries. California has lots of problems, but your doomsday predictions sounds like you're mostly trying to justify why you left. In the 1950s we had a robust economy, growing middle class, more taxes on the rich and lots of manufacturing - no one thing lead to our downfall.

This tea party obsession that lower taxes and abortion bans are the solution to all of life's problems is just silly stupid.

The one thing we haven't discussed here is greed. Greed is the main thing that's lead to offshoring. Companies are no longer satisfied with a decent profit, they need massive profits today at the expense of tomarrow.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

No not at all. I left because of a high paying tech job. I know why I left. If anything I am frustrated I can't go back and retire in the style of living I am accustomed to. The state wants too much of my hard earned money. Every time I go home I think man things have become run down around here. I just don't see it as the land of opportunity it once was. IMO it's still a beautiful place that I love. You can live better just about anywhere else in the country on a lot less money. Even as a commuter to NYC or Boston. I am frustrated because any way you chop it these days you can't make an economic argument for going back to the golden state. More than likely I'll end up in Oregon. Not the Bay Area but Portland isn't too shabby and they don't want to take everything I have earned.


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## hkenshin (Apr 7, 2008)

I'd like to stear this away from red vs blue for a sec. I for one loved my us made blur classic. I've got a Taiwanese blur lt2 now and have been eyeing an intense carbine when I go back from student to employee. It is an amazing bike that just oozes quality. My biggest hang up is that the frame is made in tw. I have no problem with Taiwanese stuff, supporting them does not prop up a totalitarian regime which oppresses its people. I'd still rather buy American. The Alu intense equivalent is too heavy or I'd be there in a heart beat. The question has to be asked why trek moved oclv overseas, why intense couldn't do carbon here, etc. There are no carbon fs frames made in the states that aren't these single pivot custom jobs, at any price. If 2800 is how much a Taiwanese carbon frame is valued at, how much would it cost to do it here? 3500? Santa Cruz's v10 carbon announced today is $3500. The prototype syndicate ran in the world cup had an enve made in the usa rear. I'm pretty sure the production is 100% tw. The question is why? Cost? Volume? Its not technology, enve and others prove we have it. If I'm paying that much for a race bike, you don't think I'd pay another 500 or even 1500 for enve to make my frame?

I will interject this: I appreciate this notion that America is going toward being a thinking nation, but then why are American schools so bad in comparison and why do we graduate more humanities majors than scientists and engineers? Red or blue voters, American youth would rather keep up with Kim K than Einstein or Newton. This is a cultural problem that has to be fixed.


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## wallstreet (Jul 27, 2012)

@hkenshin

It's obviously cost related, I have seen restructuring at major companies in Euro zone. Finance jobs, infrastructure, client centres all moving from 1st world countries to developing nations as labour is cheaper. 

One client Johnson Elec outsourced to Poland & has continued in Croatia. Many have done including Phillip Morris et al. From manufacturing to other areas. Initial first years the problems are lack of skilled people. This is countered by bringing in people to train from their main hubs. It's nothing new and will continue. Going to Taiwain is a greater trend. Utilising Just-in-Time & other efficiencies many manufacturers are relocating manufacturing to reduce costs and maximise profit. In days when demand has gone down (look at the Autos eg Peugeot, Renault, Citroen et al).

Interesting I read how quality is up on Cannondale from taking handmade out. Change is inevitable to remain a brand & competitive. Unless you want to earn $1 per day (exaggeration) it will become more difficult to compete with intelligent strategic bike companies who are not charities but entrepreneurs trying to listen to our voices as customers. 

In particular, statistically you could be correct in regards to your cultural notion in the last paragraph. However, I see MIT and other top IVY leagues spew out brilliant inventors... Inventions tend to be outsourced. The UK had lost its competitiveness from after WWII to Japan & China. It's now Singapore to Taiwan and not a bad thing for consumerism. The nations debt is what needs to be reduced. We will hurt for a long time in the West as the burden of govt and lower investments are passed on to society.

Luckily there are very good wheelsets, hubs and products still competitive in the west like Enve, Hope etc etc 

Ride On


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

hkenshin said:


> I'd like to stear this away from red vs blue for a sec. I for one loved my us made blur classic. I've got a Taiwanese blur lt2 now and have been eyeing an intense carbine when I go back from student to employee. It is an amazing bike that just oozes quality. My biggest hang up is that the frame is made in tw. I have no problem with Taiwanese stuff, supporting them does not prop up a totalitarian regime which oppresses its people. I'd still rather buy American. The Alu intense equivalent is too heavy or I'd be there in a heart beat. The question has to be asked why trek moved oclv overseas, why intense couldn't do carbon here, etc. There are no carbon fs frames made in the states that aren't these single pivot custom jobs, at any price. If 2800 is how much a Taiwanese carbon frame is valued at, how much would it cost to do it here? 3500? Santa Cruz's v10 carbon announced today is $3500. The prototype syndicate ran in the world cup had an enve made in the usa rear. I'm pretty sure the production is 100% tw. The question is why? Cost? Volume? Its not technology, enve and others prove we have it. If I'm paying that much for a race bike, you don't think I'd pay another 500 or even 1500 for enve to make my frame?
> 
> I will interject this: I appreciate this notion that America is going toward being a thinking nation, but then why are American schools so bad in comparison and why do we graduate more humanities majors than scientists and engineers? Red or blue voters, American youth would rather keep up with Kim K than Einstein or Newton. This is a cultural problem that has to be fixed.


FWIW I don't get hung up on the blue / red state thing. Personally I'm purple. I pretty much agree with you on all fronts here. My next bike will be an Ibis Mojo made in TW. That being said the rest of the bike will be outfitted with mostly U.S. sourced parts.

A nation of thinkers is just silly. Who is going to do the work? Rome, study Rome. It does not work.


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## hkenshin (Apr 7, 2008)

wallstreet said:


> @hkenshin
> 
> However, I see MIT and other top IVY leagues spew out brilliant inventors... Inventions tend to be outsourced.


My friend from high school who was doing his Ph.D at MIT just sold his company for $1.2 billion. We still have a lot of bright kids with bright ideas.

However, have you been a student in one of these programs? In the ph.d programs, there is a disproportionate number of foreign students who come here because we have the finest institutions and resources in higher education. There is nothing wrong with this. We've been brain draining the world since WWII at least, but at some point you have to imagine Chinese and Indian universities will try to catch up, or the incentive to stay or come to the US will disappear and we might have a reverse brain drain.

If we establish cost is king, why is cost so high here? Taiwan is not exactly a poor country which is cheap to live in. It's not 1st world expensive, but it's not exactly a place you can live on dollars/day. They don't have foxconn-like indentured cities. What measures can we take to bring the cost down of domestic manufacturing to compete? Why are our politicians so useless in terms of doing this, handling our debt, and fixing our clearly broken education system? Throwing money at the problem does not seem to fix it. We're not training enough kids to take up high skilled manual labor jobs, we're not training them to go into science or any math heavy fields. We're training too many of them to be consumers who have high self importance, but low self worth. Damn it, now I've derailed the thread again.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

One thing I think we can all agree on is that the education system needs help. I think we could also use a better way to train people for skilled trades and skilled manufacturing (like in Germany). Maybe we can't get our manufacturing back to 1950s levels, but many higher end products could be made here. Both unions and shareholders need to get a lot less greedy. Other countries are investing money in the future and we need to also.


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## AlpineTrailsbuilder (Nov 20, 2012)

I've been riding Ventana mountain bikes for the last couple years and I'm extremely satisfied with their attention to detail and the quality of the ride.


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

The standard of living in the US is in decline. Corporations have more rights than citizens. The white house spends most of your taxes on the military. The media is so full of propaganda that people actually think that if you are poor or in difficulty that it must be your own fault.

The USA of the 21st century looks no different than the feudal system of Europe in the middle ages.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

SS Hack said:


> One thing I think we can all agree on is that the education system needs help. I think we could also use a better way to train people for skilled trades and skilled manufacturing (like in Germany). Maybe we can't get our manufacturing back to 1950s levels, but many higher end products could be made here. Both unions and shareholders need to get a lot less greedy. Other countries are investing money in the future and we need to also.


I think the problem here is we want everybody to be college educated when everyone is not college material or wants a college education. We need trade schools too. I am rather dismayed at the decline in trade schools over the years as well as the lack of tracking in high school. If you're not college bound, forget it. Not everybody can be an engineer, Wall Street broker, or manager. Some people actually need to know how to make things well, maintain or repair them. There is nothing wrong with being a welder, electrician, skilled carpenter or computer operator (yeah we actually need these guys in factories).


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

stepitup_onenotch said:


> The standard of living in the US is in decline. Corporations have more rights than citizens. The white house spends most of your taxes on the military. The media is so full of propaganda that people actually think that if you are poor or in difficulty that it must be your own fault.
> 
> The USA of the 21st century looks no different than the feudal system of Europe in the middle ages.


This is true for the traditional middle class in America which is the basis for my argument that buying American made matters. The upper middle class is doing very well these days.


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## wallstreet (Jul 27, 2012)

stepitup_onenotch said:


> The standard of living in the US is in decline. Corporations have more rights than citizens. The white house spends most of your taxes on the military. The media is so full of propaganda that people actually think that if you are poor or in difficulty that it must be your own fault.
> 
> The USA of the 21st century looks no different than the feudal system of Europe in the middle ages.


Some Euro Facts:

Deutsche the largest German bank was leveraged at a ratio of 40:1 according to the International Financial Reporting Standards (IFRS). This is higher than Lehman Brothers had when it collapsed causing the global failures, most German banks fail to comply with new Basel rules of liquidity. Using Basel narrower capital requirements rules - two U.S. banks largest would have to raise about $100 billion of capital to comply with leverage recommendation.

I think the US banks are in greater compliance than Euro-zone (not inclusive of Switzerland that remains very stable).

How does it relate to bike owners - well you're part of the 25mn American adults still living at home as they can't afford to be on their own or those without work. Demand squeezed means Suppliers needs to squash their ROIs and have better inventory control.

EUROPE:

Labour costs in Euro per hour in Belgium is 39
Holland 31
UK 20
Ireland 17
Poland 7

Note that restructuring has created companies to close this year eg Phillips in Turnhout Belgium. Moving often to cheaper countries like Poland.

Source (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Labour_cost_index_-_recent_trends)

2015 BCG Report
Whilst USA & China gap is closing.

Its likely that the labour costs in China would match the USA in four years, catching up with eurozone countries in five years and with Japan in seven, (Source: French bank Natixis forecast in a study)

For example, NCR has moved its manufacture of ATMs to a factory in Columbus, Georgia, that will employ 870 workers as of 2014 (Source BCG report).

USA & UK

What's needed is investment as banks don't heed to the startup costs of new products and instead often good ideas are lost abroad. I think often enough there is 'outsourcing ' of production as local firms don't have the know-how or ability in more efficient foreign firms that leverage their CNC lines over multiple manufacturers.

The US state by state, needs to task in luring & competing for international business. Looking at Ireland who often discount taxation for such corporate setup.


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

@wallstreet

What is needed is a complete roll back on the financial system. In other words back to the regulations that were put in place after the crash of 1929. The financial system was stable until Reagan started to deregulate the industry, since then it has been a cycle of ever increasing financial crisis's. More people in finance have been led away in cuffs than any other. It is the most corrupt sector in the economy yet the govt continues its unabashed support and people just take it, its quite amazing. They say the banks are too big to fail, ok so lets make them smaller.

Look at Wal Mart, my favourite example for illustrating what is wrong in US society because that poor excuse for an oganization hits on all fronts. A private company owned by a family of five (the royalty) worth a combined $40 billion. They have approx two million workers (the serfs) that are paid poverty wages, get zero benefits, are treated badly and subject to intimidation to work long hours. There is no reason for that kind of corporate behaviour, it is a disgrace. It gets worse once you start looking at all their sweatshops etc in Asia. 

There is no govt pressure to make Wal Mart responsible for their workers. The workers have no chance to form unions because if it really comes to a head then the local police will step in to protect scabs so the Waltons can sip their afternoon sherry in peace. Quite the feudal set up I think. 

There is no chance to get more stuff (including bikes!) made in the USA until you all start to stick up for yourselves. Corporations have more rights than you do and that needs to change.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

I always look at the country of origin for anything I buy, often I notice USA, Euro or Japanese made goods are priced about the same as goods made in China or other developing countries. For example Nikon makes most lower end and point and shoot cameras in Thailand, yet Canon can produce similar cameras at like prices in Japan. Assuming Japanesse labor cost are higher, where's the extra profit going? Today at Home Depot I noticed two saw blades, one made in Italy of all places and the other made in China - where's the extra profit going? I opted for the Italian blade by the way - they need the business.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

stepitup_onenotch said:


> @wallstreet
> 
> What is needed is a complete roll back on the financial system. In other words back to the regulations that were put in place after the crash of 1929. The financial system was stable until Reagan started to deregulate the industry, since then it has been a cycle of ever increasing financial crisis's. More people in finance have been led away in cuffs than any other. It is the most corrupt sector in the economy yet the govt continues its unabashed support and people just take it, its quite amazing. They say the banks are too big to fail, ok so lets make them smaller.
> 
> ...


The irony of this is that social services such as food stamps help Walmart to keep operating like this - even through I'm sure those programs are hated by the owners.


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## wallstreet (Jul 27, 2012)

stepitup_onenotch said:


> Waltons can sip their afternoon sherry in peace. Quite the feudal set up I think.
> 
> There is no chance to get more stuff (including bikes!) made in the USA until you all start to stick up for yourselves. Corporations have more rights than you do and that needs to change.


Protectionism can be a good thing, patriotism is here in Switzerland. Most foods are made locally, foreign foodstuff are taxed so are more expensive. Quality control is imperative on produce. People tend to favour local. It all helps. Switzerland were smart enough not to be part of the European Union & Euro currency that is now weak due to Spain, Italy, Ireland & Greece.

McDs is your biggest most successful franchise that does well in Switzerland, France etc there is CAT, there are many many more to Pharma too. Legitimate corporations without the folly of WallMart as you deem. It's a tough one. I purchase quality products first & foremost. Luckily hiking gear Mammut is a favourite BUT it's produced in India to Thailand! Designed here! This is often the case.

2015 is when I hope the US & UK feel strength to get out of this failure of a global scale. I see a sea of change in new rules for liquidity & getting corporate America or UK into shape. It's getting better but isn't going to be overnight.

Would I buy American? Certainly if it meant Quality & Integrity.


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## wsmac (Sep 5, 2010)

FX4 said:


> I think the problem here is we want everybody to be college educated when everyone is not college material or wants a college education. We need trade schools too. I am rather dismayed at the decline in trade schools over the years as well as the lack of tracking in high school. If you're not college bound, forget it. Not everybody can be an engineer, Wall Street broker, or manager. Some people actually need to know how to make things well, maintain or repair them. There is nothing wrong with being a welder, electrician, skilled carpenter or computer operator (yeah we actually need these guys in factories).


Skipping around this thread and found this :thumbsup:

This has been one of my arguments for a good while.
I really took notice when my, now 19 y.o., daughter entered public schooling.
I had the opportunity to volunteer and work in her schools for many of her years up to the 8th grade.
I got sick of all the hype for pushing every child towards college.
The respect for blue-collar jobs is just not present.
If a kid wants to wrench on diesel engines instead of designing them... must be a loser 

There are so many factors present that drive things to the point they are today.

But an All-American-Made mountain bike?
Yeah! I'd buy one! Maybe I will.. still!
Or else I'll run up north and get a Devinci... while they still manufacture them there!


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

wsmac said:


> Skipping around this thread and found this :thumbsup:
> 
> This has been one of my arguments for a good while.
> I really took notice when my, now 19 y.o., daughter entered public schooling.
> ...


absolutly correct, there should be dignity in all work. And you are right in that not everyone can be a global account manager, society still needs shop clerks.

Who can really afford college anyways? If you get a loan to go to college or uni it is a debt that you cannot walk away from, its there for life, there are no bail out packages
for unemployed or under employed graduate students, the banks have the right to garnishee your wages on a student loan although at that point they usually sell the debt to a debt collector. Either way they own you until every last cent plus interest is paid.

The more that your govt steers education into the private sector the worse it will get.

The only reason why the education system of today is in trouble is because the state has been cutting funding for years. If you cut funding then eventually the system will beak down. It has been deliberate. Because if the system has finally died a slow death, the public are fed up and don't care anymore and it becomes easy to move it all into the private sector.

There are lots of reasons why bikes are no longer made in the USA. Education is one of them, the US has actually gone backwards in education, for the first time in its history americans are less educated than the previous generation.

The government belongs to the corporate sector, corporations have more rights than you do. This needs to change. If you can change that then there is a way forward, anything else is smoke and mirrors.


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

wallstreet said:


> Protectionism can be a good thing, patriotism is here in Switzerland. Most foods are made locally, foreign foodstuff are taxed so are more expensive. Quality control is imperative on produce. People tend to favour local. It all helps. Switzerland were smart enough not to be part of the European Union & Euro currency that is now weak due to Spain, Italy, Ireland & Greece.
> 
> McDs is your biggest most successful franchise that does well in Switzerland, France etc there is CAT, there are many many more to Pharma too. Legitimate corporations without the folly of WallMart as you deem. It's a tough one. I purchase quality products first & foremost. Luckily hiking gear Mammut is a favourite BUT it's produced in India to Thailand! Designed here! This is often the case.
> 
> ...


The most successful industry in the US belongs to the military. The US pumps out the worlds most advanced weaponry from the M16 to the F22. And the US military gets billions and billions of tax payer money every year and its called Defense. Interesting that its called Defense, they should call it Offense, but thats another discussion. The US tax payer also supports the aerospace industry and keeps private companies like Boeing and Mcdonnell Douglas afloat via govt contracts.

The US market is highly protected, all those free trade agreements are one way tickets for US industry. Look at NAFTA, the US has owed Canada $2.7 billion over softwood lumber which they never paid which destroyed the logging industry of BC and which had a curious side effect, many unemployed loggers and the like moved into cannabis production and today you have the famous BC bud, but again that is another discusion.

There are many examples of so called trade agreements that only benefit western corporations to the detriment of other usually third world nations.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

FX4 said:


> California is just a mess. When I grew up there it was the third largest economy in the world and had a surplus budget. Now look at it. High unemployment and deficits for as far as the eye can see. It's all but officially bankrupt and the citizens voted to drive the wealthy out. Many of the state's most successful will leave when the new taxes on the wealthier kick in. What a mess.


Being originally from California, it is disappointing to see how that state has turned out. What use to be the crown jewel of the US has turned into the regulation armpit of the country.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

FireLikeIYA said:


> Being originally from California, it is disappointing to see how that state has turned out. What use to be the crown jewel of the US has turned into the regulation armpit of the country.


GDP rank: 
CA = number 1 (51k per capita)
AZ = number 18 (40k per capita)

Just saying.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

SS Hack said:


> GDP rank:
> CA = number 1 (51k per capita)
> AZ = number 18 (40k per capita)
> 
> Just saying.


Equivalent cost of living that 40k is going to go a lot farther in AZ than 51k in CA. Just saying. I would also point out that AZ is a place where people go when they retire so GDP is kind of a pointless measurement when you have an above average retired population.


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## 50calray (Oct 25, 2010)

stepitup_onenotch said:


> The most successful industry in the US belongs to the military. The US pumps out the worlds most advanced weaponry from the M16 to the F22.


I wouldn't consider an outdated plastic .22 cal rifle advanced, especially a caliber originally deigned for varmit hunting...maybe 40yrs ago but not today. The current US weapon system is lacking when compared to foreign weapon systems. Even the 60yr old AK is still consider superior. The US is however light years ahead on other systems and some of this technology does filter down to the public sectors.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

SS Hack said:


> GDP rank:
> CA = number 1 (51k per capita)
> AZ = number 18 (40k per capita)
> 
> Just saying.


AZ is >25% federal reservation land, a desert and a retiree hotspot... yet it ranks #18. 
Ca was the #1 economy in the world and now its #8.

But in the end aren't we saying that "My team is better than my team"... I would just like to see CA at #1 again... Just saying.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

FireLikeIYA said:


> AZ is >25% federal reservation land, a desert and a retiree hotspot... yet it ranks #18.
> Ca was the #1 economy in the world and now its #8.
> 
> But in the end aren't we saying that "My team is better than my team"... I would just like to see CA at #1 again... Just saying.


I agree with you there. I'm not moving until you import an ocean! I do like the state a lot, by the way.


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

50calray said:


> I wouldn't consider an outdated plastic .22 cal rifle advanced, especially a caliber originally deigned for varmit hunting...maybe 40yrs ago but not today. The current US weapon system is lacking when compared to foreign weapon systems. Even the 60yr old AK is still consider superior. The US is however light years ahead on other systems and some of this technology does filter down to the public sectors.


the minute we all need a stealth bike let me know.

I should be more specific. Any poll of the american people shows that given a choice between spending on the military or spending on social services the overwhelming majority of americans choose social services: education, health care etc.

But the govt completely ignores that and Defense gets by far the lions share of tax dollars, its not even close. So in lieu of having the worlds best education system and a benign state that cares for the well being of its citizens you have the worlds largest and most advanced military of all time. The US maintains military bases in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Philippines and Japan to name but a few.

Obama is currently building new bases in Sth Korea and Australia and my guess is not many of you knew that. It is not in the govt's interest for the general population to know that, people are crying out for better health and better education and what is the govt doing - spending millions upon millions on more military bases.

Big money in defense contracting, very big money, lots of rich CEO's, just what the economy needs.

BTW - both AZ and CA lack sufficient water reserves for economic viability in the near future.


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## kateean2 (Nov 13, 2012)

Quiring has the Q-Ball multipurpose 29er, handmade by Scott Quiring in Michigan.


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## BacDoc (May 31, 2011)

kateean2 said:


> Quiring has the Q-Ball multipurpose 29er, handmade by Scott Quiring in Michigan.


Yes! one of the few relevant responses to the OP whose question is - Any bikes made in the USA?.

How can a thread that asks about what bikes are made in the US, generate responses on political views, quality of weapon tech and comparative water resources of states? Think you guys need to get out and ride more


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## wallstreet (Jul 27, 2012)

BacDoc said:


> Yes! one of the few relevant responses to the OP whose question is - Any bikes made in the USA?.
> 
> How can a thread that asks about what bikes are made in the US, generate responses on political views, quality of weapon tech and comparative water resources of states? Think you guys need to get out and ride more


Lol  true 

I thing it's just the climate  I can understand that people try to understand why manufacturers are outsourcing...

True: we should ride more  I just did  20kms


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## wobbem (Jul 19, 2009)

You may find this interesting
inrng : who makes what


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

kateean2 said:


> Quiring has the Q-Ball multipurpose 29er, handmade by Scott Quiring in Michigan.


That's a killer deal if you can still order one. I thought they took their website down but it looks like it is back. However, it says "page not found" when I clicked the order button. $499 for a US made steel frame beats several foreign made frames out there...


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

BacDoc said:


> Yes! one of the few relevant responses to the OP whose question is - Any bikes made in the USA?.
> 
> How can a thread that asks about what bikes are made in the US, generate responses on political views, quality of weapon tech and comparative water resources of states? Think you guys need to get out and ride more


We do have fun ...


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

BacDoc said:


> Yes! one of the few relevant responses to the OP whose question is - Any bikes made in the USA?.
> 
> How can a thread that asks about what bikes are made in the US, generate responses on political views, quality of weapon tech and comparative water resources of states? Think you guys need to get out and ride more


Answering the question of which bikes are made in the USA is a really simple task, most of us know the answer in general, that there are a few boutique brands around and maybe one of the big firms has a limited edition frame on sale.

Discussions evolve however and it became more interesting to talk about the why, why aren't more bikes made in the USA, and the whole thread just carried on. And it became evident that there are some strong feelings in the mtn bike community about the general state of affairs concerning the economy and why more things are not made in the USA.

It wasn't so long ago that all american brand bikes were made in the USA. I think most people reading this thread and most americans in general would like a return of more goods made in the USA.

Sure we all love riding and we all love our machines, that is a no brainer, but it doesn't mean we can't have intelligent discussions, that we can't push the envelope a little regarding issues that really matter and it is obvious that made or not made in the USA matters to people.


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## Scimitar (Jul 14, 2006)

*Few USA bikes?*



stepitup_onenotch said:


> Answering the question of which bikes are made in the USA is a really simple task, most of us know the answer in general, that there are a few boutique brands around and maybe one of the big firms has a limited edition frame on sale.


I'd like to totally disagree with this statement. There are many (try atleast 125+) builders and "brands" out there making American made mountain bikes. I would believe that "most of us" actually don't know where certain bikes are made, especially "perceived" American brands.

Check out this article if you want a comprehensive made in the USA mountain bike list: Ultimate Listing: Mountain Bikes Made In America


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

You are right, there are more manufacturers producing bikes in the US than most people realise. It is a shame that the mtn bike press does not do a better job of covering them. 

Great website, everyone should check it out. Maybe you should create a new thread..........


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

stepitup_onenotch said:


> You are right, there are more manufacturers producing bikes in the US than most people realise. It is a shame that the mtn bike press does not do a better job of covering them.
> 
> Great website, everyone should check it out. Maybe you should create a new thread..........


I can't believe how many are made in California given the our unions, regulations and general hatred for manufacturing so clearly stated above ...

I wonder what it would cost to produce a simple steel frame (El Mar, Nimble 9, etc.) without all the over designed seat tube, chainstay and other weird bends? There are some beautiful bikes on that link, but function seems to be taking a backseat to form on some of the frames.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Scimitar said:


> I'd like to totally disagree with this statement. There are many (try atleast 125+) builders and "brands" out there making American made mountain bikes. I would believe that "most of us" actually don't know where certain bikes are made, especially "perceived" American brands.
> 
> Check out this article if you want a comprehensive made in the USA mountain bike list: Ultimate Listing: Mountain Bikes Made In America


The list isn't entirely accurate. Some frame builders still mostly produce overseas with only a select few frames made here (i.e. Vassago). Good to see so many though.


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## wallstreet (Jul 27, 2012)

The Ultimate list is a very positive sign of multiple bikes producers serving their communities& markets. In 5 years or so (businessweek) China will have priced its labour to the US. Its predicted that this will spur a manufacturing growth. So a rebirth things made in your good ole USA  

Just let it be: 

High Quality &
Valued


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

wallstreet said:


> The Ultimate list is a very positive sign of multiple bikes producers serving their communities& markets. In 5 years or so (businessweek) China will have priced its labour to the US. Its predicted that this will spur a manufacturing growth. So a rebirth things made in your good ole USA
> 
> Just let it be:
> 
> ...


There's that and rising transportation costs. Oil/fuel. Having to pay all the transporation workers a living wage, etc...After a point, it's not cheaper to build it for pennies on the dollar and ship it. The Japanese figured this out long ago and cut their costs by having the manufacturing here in the US. More manufacturing will have to shift back.


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

wallstreet said:


> The Ultimate list is a very positive sign of multiple bikes producers serving their communities& markets. In 5 years or so (businessweek) China will have priced its labour to the US. Its predicted that this will spur a manufacturing growth. So a rebirth things made in your good ole USA
> 
> Just let it be:
> 
> ...


if china's labour costs rise to the level of the US (and that is a huge if because china is still very much a poor and uneducated country) business will find other sources of cheap labour like africa.


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## wallstreet (Jul 27, 2012)

Read this ref china labour: Manufacturing: The end of cheap China | The Economist

Business week also made interesting comments.

In fact I have clients who a few are US organisations, restructuring and rebasing into Poland. Where labour costs are 7 euros. So perhaps it will take the US a while but its getting there, just google the reports and you will find plenty. Its still decent news and I already wrote earlier on how some firms are coming back to the US. This would not have been believed a decade back.

I really think it's great that the US have that many bikes as posted, previous post. Amazing. The UK certainly have far fewer. Swiss less & only the largest brands will survive. My past neighbour made carbon fibre bikes by hand at a cost of 4,000-14,000! The 4k bike had great equipment and was super light/rigid. But he sold to a few select. Each bike by P.A.L.M were hand painted too - customised beautifully. my fear was not knowing what I am buying so I decided not to buy from and bought a Scott.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

stepitup_onenotch said:


> if china's labour costs rise to the level of the US (and that is a huge if because china is still very much a poor and uneducated country) business will find other sources of cheap labour like africa.


That's globalization! It will move around the world to the cheapest spot.


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## Spinning Lizard (Nov 27, 2009)

stepitup_onenotch said:


> if china's labour costs rise to the level of the US (and that is a huge if because china is still very much a poor and uneducated country) business will find other sources of cheap labour like africa.


Already happening, Specialized, Marin and Niner now have some frames made in Cambodia.


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## Mojo Troll (Jun 3, 2004)

SS Hack said:


> I can't believe how many are made in California given the our unions, regulations and general hatred for manufacturing so clearly stated above ...
> 
> I wonder what it would cost to produce a simple steel frame (El Mar, Nimble 9, etc.) without all the over designed seat tube, chainstay and other weird bends? There are some beautiful bikes on that link, but function seems to be taking a backseat to form on some of the frames.


Honestly, you already know the answer to this. Supply and demand.

Who wants a 29 HT with 18" CS and a 45"wb (on med and lrg frames) that handles like a freight train in the forrest? There has to be engineering, r and d, bends, nips, tucks etc... to make it work.

Simply an example. Not implying 29 are taking over the world.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Mojo Troll said:


> Honestly, you already know the answer to this. Supply and demand.
> 
> Who wants a 29 HT with 18" CS and a 45"wb (on med and lrg frames) that handles like a freight train in the forrest? There has to be engineering, r and d, bends, nips, tucks etc... to make it work.
> 
> Simply an example. Not implying 29 are taking over the world.


If you look at the link, some builders are going purely for looks. What's up with up-sloping top tubes - why reduce stand over?


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## swingset (Oct 14, 2010)

50calray said:


> I wouldn't consider an outdated plastic .22 cal rifle advanced, especially a caliber originally deigned for varmit hunting...maybe 40yrs ago but not today. The current US weapon system is lacking when compared to foreign weapon systems. Even the 60yr old AK is still consider superior.


The AK is superior? At what? Being clunky? Yeah, it's reliable...and inaccurate and has terrible ergonomics and crappy sights. It's the rifle of ill-trained conscripts.

It's also in modern issue shooting a 5.45 round to compete with the ballistics of what? Yeah, the wimpy 5.56 which no NATO military seems in a hurry to abandon - The M16 has served us so well we haven't found a good replacement in 40+ years. The most advanced rifle companies in the world keep trying, to little avail. The Navy Seals, SAS, Mossad and other elite paramilitaries who can choose any rifle they want often choose the M16 as a platform. Same with swat and police forces. Show me a police force, anywhere in this country, using an AK as a duty carbine. In the age of budgetary concerns, that alone would propel it if it were a superior weapon.

The modern iterations of the M16/M4 are phenomenal rifles, and they have the combat record to prove it.


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## Mojo Troll (Jun 3, 2004)

SS Hack said:


> If you look at the link, some builders are going purely for looks. What's up with up-sloping top tubes - why reduce stand over?


You can only reinvent the wheel so many times.

Back in the early "90's when mtn biking started getting more popular. There were hundreds of both custom builders and companies making frames. Look how many have folded since.

Since the 29" wheel has come along. There has been an explosion of custom frame builders welding up HT frames. How many years before they start to fold?

Everyone is making a 29 frame now. Full suspension has come a long way. Now, lets make a 650 wheel size to keep consumers spending.


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

wallstreet said:


> Read this ref china labour: Manufacturing: The end of cheap China | The Economist
> 
> Business week also made interesting comments.
> 
> ...


I read the article, its a good read but it does not tell the whole story nor does it consider the opposite question. Firstly hundreds of manufacturers have already moved in-land in China. Secondly China is a brutal country of over one billion people, if 50 million factory workers start complaining for higher wages the govt simply beats them over the head to get working. And if they quietly leave their jobs there are easily another 50 million to take their place. Thirdly China is more of an assembly plant than a manufacturer, the hi-tech pieces of an i-phone are not made in China, the pieces are sent to china where the i-phone is then assembled. Finally there are so many impoverished nations in the world that business will forever be able to exploit cheap labour.

The opposite question to ask is not how China's labour costs are rising to US levels but how US labour costs are falling to China's levels. So if manufacturing does make a comeback in the US it will only happpen because the cost of labour has fallen to new lows and not because global labour has risen to new highs. Given that unions are almost all but extinct and the US has a fast growing peasant class that just might happen.

I would urge you to read a book called Manufacturing Consent written by the famous MIT prof Noam Chomsky. It will give you a new perspective on western media. The book was also turned into a film by the same title and is freely available on you tube, its not a bad film but a little dated now.


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## Vampir (Mar 15, 2012)

stepitup_onenotch said:


> if china's labour costs rise to the level of the US (and that is a huge if because china is still very much a poor and uneducated country) business will find other sources of cheap labour like africa.


This is the normal flow of industrialization. Asian manufacturing started in Japan. When it got too expensive there, it moved to Korea. It migrated to China when Korea got too expensive. The movement out of China has started. Look to other industrialized nations that have the technology and infrastructure to support industrial manufacturing but still have low labor prices. Central and Eastern Europe, and the small countries around China are where it is moving.

The only twist to this is the rising costs of transportation. If fuel costs continue to rise disproportionately, we'll see shifts to manufacturing closer to home (Central America, and even back in the US).


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## wallstreet (Jul 27, 2012)

@StepItUp.. I really like Naom Chomsky & had read numerous works by him - remember his notes on Nike et al manufacturers. I shall look at this one you denote. It's more complex than we state. Here in Europe there is a flight now to growth countries: Poland, Croatia. The question often is at what cost. 

On topic, I am often tempted to American handcrafted bikes eg Cannondale in the past. Mine are not those now. I had an amazing BMX by Raleigh and it cost a lot in those days. It never let me down. Sadly I gave it away! In my 20s! Only to get back into cycling mid-30s. Raleigh uk are doing great again but like the US it's Asian made. Costs are too high and since WWII manufacturing became uncompetitive. I think labour costs are now €20 per hour.


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## stepitup_onenotch (Aug 27, 2012)

wallstreet said:


> @StepItUp.. I really like Naom Chomsky & had read numerous works by him - remember his notes on Nike et al manufacturers. I shall look at this one you denote. It's more complex than we state. Here in Europe there is a flight now to growth countries: Poland, Croatia. The question often is at what cost.
> 
> On topic, I am often tempted to American handcrafted bikes eg Cannondale in the past. Mine are not those now. I had an amazing BMX by Raleigh and it cost a lot in those days. It never let me down. Sadly I gave it away! In my 20s! Only to get back into cycling mid-30s. Raleigh uk are doing great again but like the US it's Asian made. Costs are too high and since WWII manufacturing became uncompetitive. I think labour costs are now €20 per hour.


yes all true. a friend of mine works at Renault who have opened factories/assembly plants in Roumania and Morocco as they exit production in France. It is a sad state of affairs in the entire western world......


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## wallstreet (Jul 27, 2012)

@Stepitup. Many to add to that list. AMD globally catching up to move to Croatia or Poland. Johnson Electric increasing in Poland plants and Croatia. Certainly it's like this when looking at manufacturing. Belgium has a cost of €37 per hr so we can see why Phillips is away, Ford shutting down too. 

I feel lucky to be in a contained protective environment. In Switzerland, the manufacturers in CNC style machining are doing fine Agie SA, however smaller parts supply side are in the red or near it eg Cointrenex. The Swiss success stories like American large end bike sellers works here as I noticed most frames are Asian sourced carbon . Be great to read research from Chomsky on bike manufacturers.


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