# Lupine seriously upping the ante...



## Andy Smale (May 23, 2007)

https://www.lupine-lights.com/misc/New.jpg

How many lumens do we reckon then - about 1500?

Andy


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

looks like someone beat me two it. First look at the new flagship model :thumbsup:


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

looks like someone beat me two it. First look at the new flagship model :thumbsup:










double post for some reason...


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## CyclingJunkie (Feb 3, 2004)

C'mon Todd, how about a little info?


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## msxtr (Dec 10, 2006)

Dave in Driggs said:


> C'mon Todd, how about a little info?


This light announce 1400 lumens.

Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

I just got the go a head... This new light will be producing 1500 lumens!
It will be offered in kits like the Edison models were, 13.8ah battery, Charger One in the top model, with the 6.8ah and Charger One in the next model down. There will also be a kit with a headband in it. 
This light will also dim down to a 1watt setting, so there will be a huge range of light options.

Currently there isn't a name for this new light yet, but Lupine has a poll set up on there forum to help name the light.
Click here for the poll,
http://www.lupine-lights.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1292


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## taize (May 5, 2007)

Nice looking light - Its going to be expensive!


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## [email protected] (Jan 4, 2004)

Oh my! That's quite the light there. Any word on run time? Cost?


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Oh my! That's quite the light there. Any word on run time? Cost?


James, Not real sure yet on run times just yet, I will get more info on that soon. Just got this off Lupine's forum:

Some more facts: 
Diameter 54 mm 
Length 44 mm 
Weight ~160 gr (lighthead only) 
Power Levels from 0.5W to 22W 
Note 0.5W is an emergency mode form ultra long runtimes 
Lumens: more than 1400

We also made a couple of changes on the software. The most remarkable one: A new superflash with 2 additional dimmlevels and much easier to select. 
We build up a new lens providing a broad beam and still more light in the distance. This was possible due to the 3 more available LEDs.

The new light will be available in 2 differents sets: 
One version with the 6.8Ah Li-Ion battery and Charger One: 
The 13.8Ah battery and Charger One:~

Availibilty: Mid August

Just a note to the price/ performance relation. The 7 LEDs we using are more costly to us than the Edison bulb. We did not build this light to be cheap but to be the best.

Beam pictures: Available soon


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

What size of battery will it take to run 7 LED's? 14.8V or higher?


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## Psycho Mike (Apr 2, 2006)

Wow...1500 lumens!! That's gotta generate a fair bit of heat.


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

Psycho Mike said:


> Wow...1500 lumens!! That's gotta generate a fair bit of heat.


That was something I asked about as well, and Lupine told me that it won't heat up any more than Wilma, running at 830 lumens. It will get hot, of coarse, but so do all lights.


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

Very exciting stuff!

Although Stefan has mentioned a software tweak to include the dimmable flashing mode, I assume apart from that the user interface will be relatively unchanged from the PCS V6 used on the Wilma series of lights. I also assume it will be knocking back the drive current quite often at the higher power levels, particularly in warmer ambient temperatures. With a 54mm by 44mm housing you don’t have much surface area to dissipate the heat that 7 emitters are going to crank out at higher drive currents.

From my point of view the Lupine name has always been associated with very high quality but equally pricey lights, but this is getting just a little silly. Now don’t get me wrong, there’s no doubt that this light is aimed as a no compromise performance light, but who’s going to buy it?

In all honesty you could argue that the only people that will buy this light will be true enthusiasts, so why not gear the light towards that market if you’re going to charge so much for it?

The PCS system would be a great base to do some really cool interface stuff with. With 7 emitters and a custom optic you have loads of scope for multiple channel control, independent and customisable presets for dimming both a flood and spot beam, advanced user customization etc. The possibilities are endless, yet really all you’ll be getting is a slightly brighter Wilma with a titanium bezel. :skep:  

Even so I have no doubt it will be a great light, and that they will sell many. It will be interesting to see some beam shots, with more emitters there’s more scope to do some very interesting stuff with optics, hopefully we may see something special to justify the price. :thumbsup:

Dave.


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

Sounds like Lupine decieded to go with the name "Betty".


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

Ah very good! It's nice to have a bit of a theme running! 

Dave.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Lupine leads the light game but I just cannot make myself spend $IK or more on a lightset and I am one heck on an impulse buyer. Just a few hundred more gets me a high-end bike frame. However, for those willing to spend the money, this will be the no-compromise option and a few detailed reviews would be great when these lights come out. 

Is the new lighthead (at 160 grams) much heavier or bigger than the current Wilma and the Edison? What are the weights of the Wilma 8 and Edison lightheads?


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

I understand the Wilma head is around 120 grams, and the Edison is 150 grams. So it’s in the same ballpark.


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

One other reason they used ti for the front ring that holds the glass in front of the optics. The weight is more evenly dispursed accross the lamp. Keeps the heavy part of the lamp over the mount, so it won't rotate forward or backwards.


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

They aren't competing with bike lights anymore; that's car headlight territory. With over 200 lumens per light engine, I would still like to see more options in the one to two light engine system category. Smaller, lighter, less expensive, but still "enough" light. Maybe Lupine can't compete in the lower range with the mass market so is choosing the super-premium tier instead. Still it's good to see them out there pushing the envelope. :thumbsup:


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

Homebrew said:


> They aren't competing with bike lights anymore; that's car headlight territory. With over 200 lumens per light engine, I would still like to see more options in the one to two light engine system category. Smaller, lighter, less expensive, but still "enough" light. Maybe Lupine can't compete in the lower range with the mass market so is choosing the super-premium tier instead. Still it's good to see them out there pushing the envelope. :thumbsup:


I don't think it's a matter of not being able to compete in the market, I think they just want to push the envelope


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## Homebrew (Jan 2, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> I don't think it's a matter of not being able to compete in the market, I think they just want to push the envelope


Sorry I didn't mean that in a bad way. I see the Lupine's as very high end gear which doesn't always lend itself to lower price points. They may just not want to compete with the NiteRider, CygoLite, Dinotte, etc for the lower end $150-$250 system range to maintain their premium status. It just seems that with the same quality light engines and engineering as the Wilma and Betty, the Lupine could totally blow them away. It also seems like they would sell a lot more systems at the $250 price point rather than $1000+.

Anyway, don't mind me. I'm just wishing Lupine made something I could afford. :bluefrown:


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

$350-$500 for a seriously nice LED is probably a good point. The problem is made worse for us by the dollar's decline against the euro. It costs more to pay Lupine in dollars and cuts into the distributor's margin since it is priced in euros but paid for in dollars. Dealers I know who can resell Lupines are not enthusiatic about it and recommend the others instead because there is little margin and the price is so high. I know two guys looking for Lupines who were told to buy directly from the distributor since there was no margin. They went with other lights, in both cases. 

My friends and family living in other countries are seeing the positive side of the situation. After decades of the strong dollar and their currencies declining, it has become cheaper for them to buy American goods and to travel to the US. Sucks for me though. It costs more to travel and I can't try a Lupine


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## bdaghisallo (Jan 10, 2006)

Any word on pricing for this new light head yet?


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Homebrew said:


> Anyway, don't mind me. I'm just wishing Lupine made something I could afford. :bluefrown:


L&M engineers are working to produce a realtively affordable LED that is as brighter or brighter than their HIDs. It will be in line with their HID pricing since they do not have to deal with importing the finished product. I bet Dinotte is also eyeing this level of LED.

I'll use my HIDs that I really like and then revisit the LED offerings next year so I can have a second light. I'll give up a couple of LEDs to have a lighthead that is compact and light. I'd rather run a 1,000 Lumen relatively compact lighthead weighing 120 grams over a 1,500 Lumen one weighing 170 grams but that's just me.

I'll call some of these manufacturers to find out what they are up to and offer some suggestions...


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

The website has had a few small updates, as long as you keep the language set as German.

It also appears likely that they will be available towards the end of August. 

Dave.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Anyone who knows care to mention the price or it it too scary?


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## quaffimodo (May 25, 2004)

Flyer said:


> Anyone who knows care to mention the price or it it too scary?


Two words: American Peso. 'Nuff said?


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

this light will cost an arm & leg plus your new born.


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## msxtr (Dec 10, 2006)

Picard said:


> this light will cost an arm & leg plus your new born.


Sure, I think will are more probably that cost to eggs and don't of chicken, precisely 

Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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## California L33 (Jul 30, 2005)

Flyer said:


> $350-$500 for a seriously nice LED is probably a good point. The problem is made worse for us by the dollar's decline against the euro. It costs more to pay Lupine in dollars and cuts into the distributor's margin since it is priced in euros but paid for in dollars. Dealers I know who can resell Lupines are not enthusiatic about it and recommend the others instead because there is little margin and the price is so high. I know two guys looking for Lupines who were told to buy directly from the distributor since there was no margin. They went with other lights, in both cases.
> 
> My friends and family living in other countries are seeing the positive side of the situation. After decades of the strong dollar and their currencies declining, it has become cheaper for them to buy American goods and to travel to the US. Sucks for me though. It costs more to travel and I can't try a Lupine


European companies never seem to understand their potential market. They should follow the Japanese model of electronics in the 60s and 70s- sell in quantity with a low unit profit and makeup for it by selling lots. Make it the accessory sold with every new bike in the U.S. and you won't care that you only made $5 on each one.


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

While I would love to see lower prices, you have to remember that Lupine are a relatively small company with a small niche market. 

Outsourcing, mass producing or cost cutting would just result in cheap, low quality, mass produced lights. Much like many other companies out there. It does kind of go against the whole high quality, precision engineered image they have got going doesn’t it? 

I’d much rather see Lupine really take advantage of their niche market of enthusiast riders, and build on their lights a little more to take advantage of this market. Give the user more control and the scope for more customization and adjustability. 

Dave.


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## California L33 (Jul 30, 2005)

Low_Rider said:


> While I would love to see lower prices, you have to remember that Lupine are a relatively small company with a small niche market.
> 
> Outsourcing, mass producing or cost cutting would just result in cheap, low quality, mass produced lights. Much like many other companies out there. It does kind of go against the whole high quality, precision engineered image they have got going doesn't it?
> 
> ...


There's nothing about making an LED light that defies quality AND mass production. If Lupine doesn't do it somebody else will.


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## BlueMountain (Nov 8, 2006)

I'd love to get my hands on a Wilma and see how it compares. Lupine products are generally quite impressive. I almost prefer the Wilma for its lighter weight and still impressive light output though it would be interesting to see the output and pattern of the Betty. Would it eventually burn a bald spot on top of my head though?


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## Blue Shorts (Jun 1, 2004)

Low_Rider said:


> I'd much rather see Lupine really take advantage of their niche market of enthusiast riders, and build on their lights a little more to take advantage of this market. Give the user more control and the scope for more customization and adjustability.
> 
> Dave.


You obviously have enough liquid assets that you don't mind paying the higher price. I admit that there's nothing wrong with that, but lights in that price range are only obtainable to a relatively few.

Most riders cannot afford to spend more on lights than they did for their bikes.


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## BlueMountain (Nov 8, 2006)

I said I'd "love" to but not that I could afford to. I'm not dropping $1K plus on a light, regardless of my financial situation. Even the Wilma is priced too high for me. Can't a guy dream?


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## Blue Shorts (Jun 1, 2004)

BlueMountain said:


> I said I'd "love" to but not that I could afford to. I'm not dropping $1K plus on a light, regardless of my financial situation. Even the Wilma is priced too high for me. Can't a guy dream?


I hear you

Companies like Lupine are good for the industry as a whole. They push the technology. This eventually allows other companies to create products for the average Joe.


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

Blue Shorts said:


> You obviously have enough liquid assets that you don't mind paying the higher price.


Far from it, as an unemployed University student I can only dream!

Personally I get much more satisfaction out of building and modifying my own lights anyway. 

I think I've made my point a few times in previous threads, but Lupine are obviously a unique company, and I admire them for that. As much as I would like to see a "cheap" Lupine it does kind of defy the whole point. I just wish they would build on what they have just a little more. 



Blue Shorts said:


> Companies like Lupine are good for the industry as a whole. They push the technology.


I'm not so sure that they do "push the technology". They certainly build their lights with incredible quality and style, but I don't think I've really ever seen them do anything that hasn't been done before. 

Dave.


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## il2mb (Jan 27, 2005)

*Lupine is the best for a reason*

Go to their website. Participate in the forum. Stephen will answer all your posts personnally. You get to know the company after a while. They build their lights the way they do because they have PRIDE in what they do. Quality is a result of their philosophy - to make the best possible light; period. I've been riding with a couple of Edison 5s on the bars for the last 2 years. Yea it was a lot of money and I had to give up on other things to afford it. When I'm 12 miles from the car riding solo I want the best. Two years, hundreds of hours night riding, no problems.

Bob


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

I’ve been lurking on the Lupine forum for a couple of years now too. 

There’s no denying the points that you have made at all, and I can see exactly where you’re coming from. :thumbsup:

However I can honestly say the same thing abut another lighting company I communicate with quite regularly too. And I’m sure other MTBR forum members have had similar experiences with some of the other smaller lighting companies too.

Dave.


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## il2mb (Jan 27, 2005)

*Golden age of lighting*

Truely a great time for night time mountain biking. The advances are coming faster every year. If I had to guess I'd say the company you are referring to is Dinotte. They're doing some great things and are on the right track. This is the year they need to pull all the stops. The transition to LED is upon us. 2 years from now the current crop of manufacturers will have gone through the mixer with only the best surviving.

Bob


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I'd vote for Light & Motion. It's the only HID I really like besides the Edison. They are watching the develoments and are working on their high-power LEDs as well (not the Stella, which is basically a commuter light). This should be interesting in 2008 and 2009 as the other good companies get into the fray. Dinotte will probably do well too.


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## ToddN (Feb 2, 2007)

*Lupine beam shots*

For those interested... Check out Lupine's website found here,

http://www.lupine.de/content/main_flash.php?lang=us

Go to "products" then click on "lighttest" for Betty and Wilma beamshots. Sorry no link.


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## batvette (Dec 10, 2006)

I think the quality of the product is beyond question, but perhaps outside of the unconsidered by some dollar VS euro dilemma, (I think this flagship model comes out around $1800 US, guesstimate? That is what most really call stupidly, wife-starts-packing expensive- but not for the bragging rights of "best") Lupine must know its market niche, but who is it?
Who needs, not just desires for a toy, a light like this? Of course a serious 24 hour racer. Most serious competetive racers, like anything which requires devotion, whether it be the best shredding guitarist or the fanciest parkour freerunner in Lithuania, have to eat, sleep, and be so immersed in their craft that you aren't about to find many securities traders or corporate tax lawyers (and their discretionary spending incomes) among them. In fact, in a hardware rich sport such as mountain biking, if the top guys are sporting the "bling" it's by sponsorship one way or another. The one guy I know who could make a living as a guitar player over the last few decades, was an absolute social closet case in high school, the devotion to his skills took 12 hours locked in his room daily. You hear some of his work today in obscure porn film soundtracks, he is NOT however spending his slim studio earnings on gear- it's sponsored. Strings, cables, rack effects, you name it. 
So we shouldn't feel too put off or neglected by the "snooty" highbrows at Lupine (all sarcasm intended with no offense) because like the all too common (LOL!) Ferrari F40, or Vector that almost was, we'll simply never see one. Lupine will likely lose money, but won't, because they won't be silly enough to try and put a dozen in every Performance bike shop/name your chain store in every country with underperforming currencies. 
(if you think you can't afford one now, had we not toppled Saddam you just might be seeing $3k on that unit!)
http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2004/sharma0204.html

Obviously that's for another forum, but the point is this light isn't for any of us, it's for Lupine to show off to the industry. We can buy our Dinotte 500L's which is more than enough to give us some bragging riights at the local trails and positively piss off our fellow riders we shine it in the face of.

Honestly, you aren't going to make any friends or add any riding buddies to your "call-up" list if you have a 1400 lumen beam of sunlight blinding them on a moonlight ride anyhow.

I'll finish by saying I have never seen anyone given the accolades over at the candlepower forums for buying a tank light or other similar exotic gadget, like I did the guy who home-brewed a 10x Cree Makita batteried aluminum searchlight with (what appeared to be) a broomstick handle. 
Seems to me that the man of the hour was the guy who made his own clock.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I'll buy a $2K frame, a $5K bike, more $50 tires than I can use, but I just cannot make myself spend $1K plus on a light. Maybe if I rode every night but not for a once-a-week nightly ride. The cost per ride is ridiculous 

Riding 3-4 times per week justifies my other bike-related expenses but $500 is my cap on a light. I just feel stupid buying such an expensive light. To me it's the equivalent pf paying $5K for a frame when the best frames I have ridden are between $1,500-$2,000. The extra $3K gets me a frame that is 100 grams lighter. Thanks but I'll be fine without it. No offense to Lupine but it's not an affordability question. It's just that the Law of Diminishing Returns hits this situation with all its might


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## msxtr (Dec 10, 2006)

Flyer said:


> *I'll buy a $2K frame, a $5K bike, more $50 tires than I can use, but I just cannot make myself spend $1K plus on a light*. Maybe if I rode every night but not for a once-a-week nightly ride. The cost per ride is ridiculous


:eekster: :eekster: :eekster: :eekster: :yikes: :yikes: :smilewinkgrin:

Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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## tnscoop (Apr 11, 2007)

The idea of 1400 lumens seems a bit over the top. Earlier this year I purchased a Dinotte 500L and 200L combo - half the illumination of the new light - and I have found 600-700 lumens to be overly sufficient when racing a mountain bike at night. My night ride in a 24 hour race was only 3 minutes slower than my fastest day lap. When I ride at night casually I typically only use the 500L, which by itself throws way more than enough light. On the road I can ride with just one light - either one - and see quite well. So what purpose is 1400 lumens supposed to serve?


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I think my ARC has the equivalent of around 650-700. While that is safe and sufficient as well as something I cannot outrun, I think the Betty will simply be brighter and will throw light over a longer distance. Some will like that idea.

It's a bit over the top but so are many things. I would not pay that much for a light but I can't knock it unless it is so bright that it becomes reflective (washes out trail details), creates hot spots, gets too hot, or is too heavy.


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## Low_Rider (Jan 15, 2004)

tnscoop said:


> The idea of 1400 lumens seems a bit over the top.


Remember that a 1400 lumen light will not appear to be twice as bright as a 700 lumen light to the human eye either. 

While luminous flux is a pretty good indicator of a lights performance, how that light is actually focussed is just as important. Arguably, along with efficiency gains, the use of multiple emitters makes it much easier to manipulate the light produced.

Lupine do have a number of lights in their range which are a little more conservative, the Betty is definitely their "flagship" showpiece. 

I have just noticed that it appears that this light is now officially available too. 

Dave.


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

I've been eyeballing their flagship for some time now too and am thoroughly impressed with it. From the beam shot it basically turned the night into day and the beam is wide and long. I would buy one if it were under $1000, but it's not gonna happen. The 830 lumen wilma $600 and some change and I am seriously considering that light. I currently run two niterider hids, but the benefits of leds are causing me to consider replacing the hid lights with led. I find one niterider hid not sufficient in some circumstances, but two is plenty.


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## il2mb (Jan 27, 2005)

*1400 Lumens may be too much*

I've used a lot of lights over the last few years. HID, halogen and some of the early Exposure LED stuff. My light of choice for the last 2 years has been the Lupine Edison 5. The Edison puts out a nice wide beam and is pretty bright. I don't ride with a helmet mounted light because, for me anyway, it washes out too much trail detail. With the Edison on the bar I needed a little more light so I got a second head. 1800 Lumens is BRIGHT! The two heads complimented each other very well; removing all non-uniform areas without any hot spots whatsoever and great side spill. Trail detail was excellent - better than riding in daylight. Good side spill is something you really need if you are going with bar mount only. However, I do think 1800 Lumens is over what I would consider necessary no matter what type of terrain or how fast you are going at night. I picked up a 830 Wilma recently and have been using that solo on the bars. The beam is very uniform, bright and throws a long way. I wish the side spill were a little better. My point in all the above is the question I and a lot of others have asked over the years is; What exactly is the ideal amount of light for night riding? Having tried a wide range of lights at outputs from 100 Lumens up to 1800 I would say the magic number would be around 1000. If that could be achieved with while providing a broad beam pattern, a nice side spill and deep throw up trail one would have the perfect light.

The Wilma comes very close to that light. I think the next upgrade Lupine offers will take it to 1000 lumens or greater - maybe in a year or two. For now the Wilma is the best light out there.

Bob


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## KPRush1000 (Nov 15, 2006)

I've been riding with the Edison 5 for nearly 2 years. It blows away any other HID I've seen as far as output. It was expensive, but so is insurance when you crash at night. I've spent several thousands on my bike, so why not close to 1k on a light that is more than I need? I know it isn't for everyone and I am sure I am biased because I paid for it, but I think it was worth it. As long as you get out at night and can enjoy the trails, enjoy the time and ride. I'll shine my light away from your eyes if we meet up head on.

Kev


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## California L33 (Jul 30, 2005)

KPRush1000 said:


> I've spent several thousands on my bike, so why not close to 1k on a light that is more than I need?
> 
> Kev


 Is it your bike or your body that's worth the investment?



KPRush1000 said:


> I'll shine my light away from your eyes if we meet up head on.
> 
> Kev


 That's all I ask- thanks.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

When I run into riders at night, I always turn my head down or point my light down by hand till they pass. When I talk to them, I make sure I point it all the way down. I only use a helmet light right now so I don't need to worry about the bar light. I'm sure I could easily do that as well. 

I do need to eventually get a bar light that has a wide and even beam spread but I'll wait till 2008 products are out.


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