# Anabolic Steroids in Mountain Biking



## Rev. 14 (Jan 22, 2012)

Curious... I have some friends I ride with here and there that use Anabolics for MTBing. They don't use them to get big like body builders but they use the ones that provide greatest endurance to strength benefits. I think I'm in pretty good shape but I can never keep up with these guys. I mean they are on fire and I'm just surprised at how fast they are and I'm talking about on climbs and slight inclines. We're not talking down hill. 

We've talked about this several times. They tell me that many people are now using anabolics in XC racing and Enduro racing. They don't look like body builders but they said there are all kinds of different anabolics. Some get you ripped, some get you big (Testosterone), some are great for endurance, some are great for strenght and some do a little of everything. I used to have college buddies who used for NCAA swimming and they didn't look like body builders either. 

I told my friends that I was gong to ask this question in here so I'm making good on that. Do many people use steroids on the trail? I was thinking of doing my first race soon too but I was a little deflated in thinking man, if all these people are using sauce they why even bother. I'll get taken to the woodshed in a race. I know in just about every competitive sport most are using something but I guess I never thought of it in MTBing. 

I supplement with creatine and a carbohydrate/caffine blend that I can really feel works well on the trail. I use a protein drink post ride but thats about all she wrote. It pales in comparison. Just curious if anabolics are used as much as I've been told, and if its just sort of hush hush at the moment.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

If you, OP , want to go do a race then go do it. In my experience everyone is there for a good time and the encouragement is always well intentioned..

If your friends juice to win a local races then they're very sad people with bigger self esteem issues to deal with.

Oh... find other people to ride with who actually are there to enjoy themselves as well.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Drugs are bad mkay.
Not worth taking steroids as the long term repercussions can be pretty bad.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

They're good if you want smaller balls!
Heart problems, acne, etc. just make them more fun.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Using performance enhancing substances recognized as such by anti doping organizations is widely viewed as cheating. These organizations conduct random and systematic testing to detect doping, though it's very rare until you get up to higher level races. On occasion, amateurs test positive and get penalized. If you're not engaging in sanctioned races where doping is prohibited, there's nothing to stop you from doping as long as you obtain the substances legally. 

I kinda doubt your doping acquaintances aren't enjoying themselves, despite what driver bob implies.


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## Horseshoe (May 31, 2018)

I have to wonder which anabolic would help with MTBs. I’m no expert on either, but I’m coming back to MTBs after several years in powerlifting where anabolics are quite common. I never used myself (I’m fine being genetically mediocre and would be embarrassed to lift my numbers if I was juicing) but know many people that do. Most are candid about the positives (of which there are many) and negatives (plenty there too). Granted these are elite lifters at the absolute pinnacle of the sport, and they simply wouldn’t be there if they didn’t cycle through various drugs. 

My two cents: if you want to be the best of the best, it may be necessary to supplement. For everyone else, it isn’t worth the downsides when there are other things you could do (training, sleep, diet, coaching) that would give you better results.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

driver bob said:


> If you, OP , want to go do a race then go do it. In my experience everyone is there for a good time and the encouragement is always well intentioned..
> 
> *If your friends juice to win a local races then they're very sad people with bigger self esteem issues to deal with.
> 
> Oh... find other people to ride with who actually are there to enjoy themselves as well*.


^^^ This. ^^^

Can't believe anyone would risk the possible health side-effects, sad indeed.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

alexbn921 said:


> Not worth taking steroids as the long term repercussions can be pretty bad.


This. There will be physiological consequences, no way around it.

Why are we out in the woods riding bikes again?


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

I am sure there are many benefits to steroids and/or epo and/or ebikes when trying to climb faster, but I usually just do Kodiak Cakes and a coconut water before a ride. If you really want to become a better rider (faster =/= better), then a skills clinic would be a better investment in the long run.


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## Dale-Calgary (Feb 14, 2018)

Your so called friends have lost the reason why we bike. 

I would stay away from them or you may be grouped with them by association.


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## MTBMILES (Dec 27, 2007)

Are you sure they’re not messing with you? Anyone using drugs doesn’t freely talk about it. I have a lot of cycling friends and don’t know anyone using and bragging about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Millennial29erGuy (Feb 5, 2017)

It sounds like you are riding with a bunch of dirt-roadies


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

What if we juiced....then hopped on our ebikes? Would we be even faster?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mtnbikej said:


> What if we juiced....then hopped on our ebikes? Would we be even faster?


And we can hack the ebikes and make them even faster.

Harsh thread. As it should be.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

and to think, he originally posted it in the 29er bikes forum.

I am perfectly happy with my mediocre self. dopers - sad.


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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

Taking steroids is stupid.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Shouldn't this be in the "Nutrition" forum?


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I heard two sport class racers asking each other if they felt the effects of the T during the race (Ashland 12 Mile Super D) at the finish as the last racers were coming in. It was one of the most pathetic things I've heard while racing.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

This might be the most pathetic thing I have read on this forum. 

EVER.

In any event, in before the move...


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## J_Westy (Jan 7, 2009)

The quest of something for nothing is pathetic and sad. 

Maybe the roids will shrivel their stones before they have the chance to reproduce and pass the mindset to the next generation....


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

mtnbkrmike said:


> This might be the most pathetic thing I have read on this forum.
> 
> EVER.
> 
> In any event, in before the move...


too late it's already been moved once, out of 29ers...


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

My $0.02...Not worth the health risks and so pathetic for someone to feel the need to resort to such things instead of good, old fashioned hard work and effort. But in this day and age of entitlement, where more and more people are wanting things easier and quicker, not surprised. I'd just find some new friends to be honest, just doesn't stand in my morals. What really pissed me off is when they start to dumb down trails so they can go faster racing for KOMs.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Phuck dopers. They ruin sports.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

MSU Alum said:


> They're good if you want smaller balls!


Faster *and* more comfy in the saddle? I'm in!


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Save your balls and buy an ebike, the safe alternative to doping.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

To win amateur races? But why?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I have no moral problem with it unless you are in a money paying/ Professional competition, I just know that it has real health consequences and imo isn't worth it for amateur sports where having fun is the name of the game. Understand that the results are temporary, but the effects on your endocrine system are usually permanent. Everyone I know that juiced, can no longer make their own T and has to be 'on' for the rest of their life. 
Also if you have a genetic predisposition for baldness lt will greatly accelerate hair loss. 
Good luck. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Cornfield said:


> Save your balls and buy an ebike, the safe alternative to doping.


You're recommending eDoping? I think that makes your balls smaller as well.

jk guys, jk.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

jcd46 said:


> Shouldn't this be in the "Nutrition" forum?


I'm thinking the Riding Passion forum, but it seems nobody can find it.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Lone Rager said:


> I'm thinking the Riding Passion forum, but it seems nobody can find it.


that's only DJ


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Anabolic Steroids do not offer any benefit in endurance, unless you're dieting to loose weight and trying to hold in to muscle tissue. They can give a slight improvement to sprinting. 
There are non hormonal drugs that can increase endurance but they are more dangerous than anabolics. 

Drug use is rampant in professional sports. Removing morality and opinion from the equation. Performance enhancing drugs only improve ability by 10% so if you choose to take them make sure you have maxed out your natural ability first and weight out the risk. Outside of a paycheck and having a appointed doctor monitor you. The risk is dumb IMHO.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

the-one1 said:


> To win amateur races? But why?


Bragging rights and free schwag of course, duh


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Who are they trying to impress? I mean, what must your self esteem be like, if YOU know you gained an advantage (over what or whom, I don't know), by doping? 

I just don't understand the mentality.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

part of the reason I don't enjoy competition much as an adult. Too many people lose their minds in the drive to win.

I'll sign up for the odd event here or there, but actual competition is never the goal. Just completion. Probably more often, I'll set up a ride myself or with a few other people that we do just for the sake of doing it. The experience is what drives it. "Competing" with a bunch of doped up middle aged men in lycra with insecurity problems isn't my idea of fun.


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## knutso (Oct 8, 2008)

Lance and those guys slept with heart monitors, so they could get up and spin before the junk killed them in their sleep. Even with specialist doctors and an unlimited budget, that stuff fudges you. Amateur dopers have to be the stupidest SOBs out there.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Bragging rights and free schwag of course, duh


I mostly just go online to do my bragging about my race results and all the free schwag. I supplement with beer....the more I drink, the better I've been:thumbsup:


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Steroids (T) will certainly help your friends; that's what the pro's were using and getting busted for not that long ago. 

Yup, it's cheating.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

mik_git said:


> too late it's already been moved once, out of 29ers...


Guilty... the EPO made me do it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

driver bob said:


> Guilty... the EPO made me do it.


Well if you're going to dope to improve your cycling performance you might as well go for the good stuff.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> Well if you're going to dope to improve your cycling performance you might as well go for the good stuff.


Cycling be damned, I'm in it for the interwebs glory... got me from "mod" to "supermod" already..  My response times to reported posts are significantly faster than they used to be.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

driver bob said:


> If you, OP , want to go do a race then go do it. In my experience everyone is there for a good time and the encouragement is always well intentioned..
> 
> If your friends juice to win a local races then they're very sad people with bigger self esteem issues to deal with.
> 
> Oh... find other people to ride with who actually are there to enjoy themselves as well.


What he said and thank you for saying it!


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Cerberus75 said:


> Anabolic Steroids do not offer any benefit in endurance, unless you're dieting to loose weight and trying to hold in to muscle tissue. They can give a slight improvement to sprinting.
> There are non hormonal drugs that can increase endurance but they are more dangerous than anabolics.
> 
> Drug use is rampant in professional sports. Removing morality and opinion from the equation. Performance enhancing drugs only improve ability by 10% so if you choose to take them make sure you have maxed out your natural ability first and weight out the risk. Outside of a paycheck and having a appointed doctor monitor you. The risk is dumb IMHO.


The statement about anabolics not offering any benefit to endurance isn't so, at all.

Anabolics cover a wide range of substances. Some inflate your muscles, explosive strenth, cause acne, rage, etc... Every Pro bodybuilder uses D-Bal and things like that to look the way they do. This is one end of the spectrum. The other end of the steriod spectrum makes you lean, strong, high endurance, things like Winstrol. Celebrity men/ models use these to get their BF around 4-7% for that 'Brad Pitt' lean look. MMA fighters use something right in the middle for some explosive strength AND endurance.

10% improvement might be accurate for someone highly trained. For someone with a job and kids but well trained, he difference can be huge, subjectively I'd say 30%.

My knowledge on the topic is outdated. In the mid-90s I nearly died in a motorcycle accident and when I finally was released from the hospital I was skin and bones. I had always been skinny but now I just looked sickly. I was a poor college student with a small quantity of nutricious food available to me. I did 2 cautious cycles at a very low dose and gained about 35#s of muscle and kept all of it putting me at a healthy 175# 6' tall (at the time). It transformed my body, in a good way. However I was diagnosed with endocrine issues in my late 30s. Maybe it's related, or maybe it's just my genetics. I suspect the latter.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

the-one1 said:


> To win amateur races? But why?


The big picture is if you need to dope to win amature anything you'll never excel past that. Its just dumb.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Harold said:


> "Competing" with a bunch of doped up middle aged men in lycra with insecurity problems isn't my idea of fun.


Lol!


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

If you do juice use the suppository one's. They work better while riding.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

So lame.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I know a doper who rails against ebikers. The irony.....


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Steroids + eBike = Strava Glory


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

chuckha62 said:


> Who are they trying to impress? I mean, what must your self esteem be like, if YOU know you gained an advantage (over what or whom, I don't know), by doping?
> 
> I just don't understand the mentality.


Playing Devil's Advocate here: What if you are not trying to impress anyone but to just be your physical best, particularly as you age? I don't dope but know plenty that do (none in cycling) and the fact is that it can allow a middle aged man, with proper training, to perform and recover like one much younger. Do you think that those that exercise for improvement are just 'doing it to impress people'? People's motivations are different obviously.

Surely you should understand that getting your hormone levels back to a more youthful place is MORE healthy than the depressed hormone levels of the typical aging male? I at least hope that you do.

My prediction is that in 30 years all males over about 50 will be given optimized hormones (which are just steroids) to ward off heat disease and other age related illnesses.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Gasp4Air said:


> Steroids + eBike = Strava Glory


LOL. Can spot 'em a mile away with the lycra shorts and the shrunk testicles ehh?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> Playing Devil's Advocate here: What if you are not trying to impress anyone but to just be your physical best, particularly as you age? I don't dope but know plenty that do (none in cycling) and the fact is that it can allow a middle aged man, with proper training, to perform and recover like one much younger. Do you think that those that exercise for improvement are just 'doing it to impress people'? People's motivations are different obviously.
> 
> Surely you should understand that getting your hormone levels back to a more youthful place is MORE healthy than the depressed hormone levels of the typical aging male? I at least hope that you do.
> 
> My prediction is that in 30 years all males over about 50 will be given optimized hormones (which are just steroids) to ward off heat disease and other age related illnesses.


If our society continues to let the pharmaceutical companies sell us pills to try to fix the unhealthy living so many people partake in, you may be right. But people who live healthy lives instead of trying to fix what they have broken with a quick and easy cure won't go that route.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> Playing Devil's Advocate here: What if you are not trying to impress anyone but to just be your physical best, particularly as you age? I don't dope but know plenty that do (none in cycling) and the fact is that it can allow a middle aged man, with proper training, to perform and recover like one much younger. Do you think that those that exercise for improvement are just 'doing it to impress people'? People's motivations are different obviously.


In this case, sounds like the motivation is to cheat at racing. 
OP made it clear that race results are the reason he's considering it.

Again: lame.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> Playing Devil's Advocate here: What if you are not trying to impress anyone but to just be your physical best, particularly as you age? I don't dope but know plenty that do (none in cycling) and the fact is that it can allow a middle aged man, with proper training, to perform and recover like one much younger. Do you think that those that exercise for improvement are just 'doing it to impress people'? People's motivations are different obviously.


Doesn't that go back to my point? Doesn't matter who else knows you gained an unnatural advantage. YOU'LL know. Does personal integrity, the sense of accomplishment and satisfaction for persevering not count for anything anymore?

I'm trying NOT to make the eBike comparison, but I had a conversation with a long time friend over the weekend. I'm 57 and we have been friends since we were ten years old, so a long time...

He and I have ridden bikes together off and on for years and he was telling me how he and another friend have been getting in 35 miles on weekdays after work. I'm going, "WTF???" and he grinned and told me he bought an ebike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> Playing Devil's Advocate here: What if you are not trying to impress anyone but to just be your physical best, particularly as you age? I don't dope but know plenty that do (none in cycling) and the fact is that it can allow a middle aged man, with proper training, to perform and recover like one much younger. Do you think that those that exercise for improvement are just 'doing it to impress people'? People's motivations are different obviously.
> 
> Surely you should understand that getting your hormone levels back to a more youthful place is MORE healthy than the depressed hormone levels of the typical aging male? I at least hope that you do.
> 
> My prediction is that in 30 years all males over about 50 will be given optimized hormones (which are just steroids) to ward off heat disease and other age related illnesses.


I don't remember the details but a few years back I heard an interview with a doctor talking about performance enhancing drugs and how when administered correctly they can have several positive benefits and potentially no downsides, particularly for older people and certain diseases but also just in general.

People do and take lots of legal things that make them feel and perform better, where do you draw the line? I'm not advocating anything at all but it was an interesting philosophical discussion.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't remember the details but a few years back I heard an interview with a doctor talking about performance enhancing drugs and how when administered correctly they can have several positive benefits and potentially no downsides, particularly for older people and certain diseases but also just in general.
> 
> People do and take lots of legal things that make them feel and perform better, where do you draw the line? I'm not advocating anything at all but it was an interesting philosophical discussion.


My personal view is if you are doing it for yourself and there is no harm to somebody else, then more power to you.

The problem is if you enter races or compete in anyway, then you are cheating. It would be no different than playing cards with a loaded deck or stealing someone's money in a game of Monopoly when they go use the bathroom.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

midwestmtb said:


> It would be no different than playing cards with a loaded deck or stealing someone's money in a game of Monopoly when they go use the bathroom.


it's less obvious if everybody raids the Monopoly bank for a few hundred dollars.... according to the interweb.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Well I think if everyone is doing it and the rules are explicit, then fine. It's problematic when people are doing it under the table under the assumption that "everyone else is doing" so I have to do it to compete that is problematic. Because the rules say you are not supposed to dope. So the race is a lie.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

midwestmtb said:


> My personal view is if you are doing it for yourself and there is no harm to somebody else, then more power to you.
> 
> The problem is if you enter races or compete in anyway, then you are cheating. It would be no different than playing cards with a loaded deck or stealing someone's money in a game of Monopoly when they go use the bathroom.


I agree, unless "cheating" is standard fare (professional sports) and then it's not really cheating.

And whether someone is cheating or not is just a matter of the law, funny how so many pro athletes have asthma now eh?

Again not advocating, just musing. The guy on the show I heard was way smarter, more knowledgeable, and a much better communicator than me and raised a lot of interesting points that I can't convey. I wish I could link it.

Even more contriversal was that he predicted that performance enhancing drugs, and drugs in general will become less and less relevant if/when genetic engineering becomes more commonplace.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

chazpat said:


> You're recommending eDoping? I think that makes your balls smaller as well.
> 
> jk guys, jk.


If you're on an ebike they are probably already small or missing.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I suspect that at that point, we will have more information to create more nuanced racing classes. Just like in Motorsports, there are restrictions on the size of the engine, etc. I don't have a problem with drug or genetic manipulation if we know what the game is.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> The statement about anabolics not offering any benefit to endurance isn't so, at all.
> 
> Anabolics cover a wide range of substances. Some inflate your muscles, explosive strenth, cause acne, rage, etc... Every Pro bodybuilder uses D-Bal and things like that to look the way they do. This is one end of the spectrum. The other end of the steriod spectrum makes you lean, strong, high endurance, things like Winstrol. Celebrity men/ models use these to get their BF around 4-7% for that 'Brad Pitt' lean look. MMA fighters use something right in the middle for some explosive strength AND endurance.
> 
> ...


I was in the Bodybuilding, power lifter world for years. And hung out in a gym that had a wide range of athletes. You're correct if you want strength, power or mass. Power and strength (sprints)anabolics give you an edge. EPO gw1516 and amphetamines are used for endurance, anabolics use is low dosage to maintain muscle. Too much and your going to have muscle that wont relax and this drains energy.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

chuckha62 said:


> Doesn't that go back to my point? Doesn't matter who else knows you gained an unnatural advantage. YOU'LL know. Does personal integrity, the sense of accomplishment and satisfaction for persevering not count for anything anymore?
> 
> I'm trying NOT to make the eBike comparison, but I had a conversation with a long time friend over the weekend. I'm 57 and we have been friends since we were ten years old, so a long time...
> 
> He and I have ridden bikes together off and on for years and he was telling me how he and another friend have been getting in 35 miles on weekdays after work. I'm going, "WTF???" and he grinned and told me he bought an ebike.


We finally have a doping topic that's more universally condemned than e-bikes, woohoo! 
I thought for a while e-bikes were the worst hated topic but now we have anabolic doping in first place.

Some of these Strava segment data leaderboards make me really wonder what the rider is taking before they climb a 10% dirt grade at 8.2 mph. A lot of e-bikers can't even climb it that fast.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

chazpat said:


> If our society continues to let the pharmaceutical companies sell us pills to try to fix the unhealthy living so many people partake in, you may be right. But people who live healthy lives instead of trying to fix what they have broken with a quick and easy cure won't go that route.


Regardless of the actions of some Pharmaceutical Companies that are certainly behaving in an immoral manner, no matter how well you maintain your physical health, all of our bodies experience a significant decrease in health, commonly seen as reduced performance. This is fact and I assure you, Father Time waits for no one. We evolved to reach reproduction age and get our offspring going and simply weren't built to live the years that modern medicine and lifestyles permit now.

Furthermore some unhealthy aspects of the world are just unescapable, such as long work hours in front of a computer.

The reality is that 'juicing' in a controlled environment under a doctor's supervision is a healthier choice than just aging naturally. The goal is to to get your body to a natural healthy level. Understand that the healthy amounts of hormones that doctors aim for, are nothing but a fraction of what Bodybuilders use.

The 'friends' mentioned in the 1st post at a bike race, were they middle aged men? Cause if so, they very well might be enjoying and talking about the benefits of a proper HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) program which is nothing but Testosterone prescribed by a doctor with the goal of obtaining around the 'average T levels for a 30ish age male'. I would not consider that 'cheating' personally but just maintaining your body.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

BTW, Caffeine combined with aspirin provides an incredible athletic performance enhancement.

Legally.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't remember the details but a few years back I heard an interview with a doctor talking about performance enhancing drugs and how when administered correctly they can have several positive benefits and potentially no downsides, particularly for older people and certain diseases but also just in general.
> 
> People do and take lots of legal things that make them feel and perform better, where do you draw the line? I'm not advocating anything at all but it was an interesting philosophical discussion.


Steroids increase the risk of cancer, especially prostate cancer. Cancer is a major downside. They also inhibit the immune system.

When you are young, your cells are growing and renewing themselves much faster than when you are older. There is a reason why this process slows down: because if it kept up forever like it did when you were young, tissues would keep growing out of control and you'd have cancer all over the place. It's good that endurance and recovery are not as robust as when you were young, because that also lowers the cancer incidence. It's a good trade-off. Look at all the professional athletes that are dead before age 50, they pushed things too far and abused their bodies.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> We finally have a doping topic that's more universally condemned than e-bikes, woohoo!
> I thought for a while e-bikes were the worst hated topic but now we have anabolic doping in first place.
> 
> Some of these Strava segment data leaderboards make me really wonder what the rider is taking before they climb a 10% dirt grade at 8.2 mph. A lot of e-bikers can't even climb it that fast.


Click on that riders profile, you'll probably see that they rode about 10,000 miles last year. I've ridden 10 minute climbs close to that grade @ 8mph and I'm pretty ancient and definitely no pro. Also I can't afford ped's.

Anyway, nothing at all to do with silly electric bikes


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

the-one1 said:


> To win amateur races? But why?


Doping in Cat 2/Sport class. A race that you paid to enter.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Suns_PSD said:


> BTW, Caffeine combined with aspirin provides an incredible athletic performance enhancement.
> 
> Legally.


You forgot Ephedrine. That's what a lot of runners use (not sure about cyclists): caffeine, aspirin, ephedrine. Personally I just use it for hayfever; I briefly tried it for biking and it didn't seem to do anything.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Suns_PSD said:


> Playing Devil's Advocate here: What if you are not trying to impress anyone but to just be your physical best, particularly as you age? I don't dope but know plenty that do (none in cycling) and the fact is that it can allow a middle aged man, with proper training, to perform and recover like one much younger. Do you think that those that exercise for improvement are just 'doing it to impress people'? People's motivations are different obviously.
> 
> Surely you should understand that getting your hormone levels back to a more youthful place is MORE healthy than the depressed hormone levels of the typical aging male? I at least hope that you do.
> 
> My prediction is that in 30 years all males over about 50 will be given optimized hormones (which are just steroids) to ward off heat disease and other age related illnesses.


Unless you're in an open class, like in many single speed classes, you line up with peers in your own age group. The last open class single speed race I raced, I pulled second. First place was an 18 year old; I was 43.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Suns_PSD said:


> BTW, Caffeine combined with aspirin provides an incredible athletic performance enhancement.
> 
> Legally.


I never drink coffee or soda, but half a cup of coffee before a morning race makes me feel like Superman. I mainly drink it because I'm not a morning person. I have to be drug to the starting line. Same thing with surfing. I hate the morning session.


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Anyway, nothing at all to do with silly electric bikes


You're right, but my buddy on the eBike's attitude was that if no one could tell he was on an E, then it shouldn't be an issue.

Sorry, I forgot to finish the tie in.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Oh crap, I've been doing this all wrong. I've been downing a couple stouts before the ride to load up on carbs while I should have been juicing with steroids. Well, this explains a lot.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> BTW, Caffeine combined with aspirin provides an incredible athletic performance enhancement.
> 
> Legally.


+ ephedrine = an ECA stack. That's horrible for you too.

One of my best friends' younger brother is a former Mr. Junior Canada. He now has no left pec. Coincidence? Same as the endocrine issues diagnosed in your 30s (which, by the way, I am truly sad to hear about and hope things are okay with you).

It's not about cheating to me (although I am not saying this is NOT an issue as well). It's more about living as long a life as I can to enjoy it with my loved ones. Being at the head of the pack of my biking buddies to brag about it over post-ride beers is about the most effed up justification I can think of for assuming the associated risks.

To me at least.

This is obviously a very controversial topic among the lifters. But for non-professional mountain biking? For real? It's shocking to me this discussion is even taking place.

PS - not to be melodramatic, and I obviously appreciate that not all PEDs are the same, but the guys I know who have entered the fray all say the same thing - there is never any turning back...


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> I agree, unless "cheating" is standard fare (professional sports) and then it's not really cheating.
> 
> And whether someone is cheating or not is just a matter of the law, funny how so many pro athletes have asthma now eh?
> 
> ...


Is this guy part of the mainstream medical community?

Is he even a real doctor?

Unless there are verifiable and repeatable studies, then I'd be very wary of such claims.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Curveball said:


> Is this guy part of the mainstream medical community?
> 
> Is he even a real doctor?
> 
> Unless there are verifiable and repeatable studies, then I'd be very wary of such claims.


Yeah, he had credentials and I'm sure if I could remember or find a link many would agree that the guy made a lot of sense. Like I said I'm not representing him well.

I'm not saying ped's are a good thing in most circumstances and as used now most have many dangerous side effects, but what _*if*_ they could be safely used to cure certain diseases, or midigate detrimental aging effects, or enhance a person's quality of life while at the same time improving their athletic performance? Many legal and thus respectable substances are used for those purposes now.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yeah, he had credentials and I'm sure if I could remember or find a link many would agree that the guy made a lot of sense. Like I said I'm not representing him well.
> 
> I'm not saying ped's are a good thing in most circumstances and as used now most have many dangerous side effects, but what _*if*_ they could be safely used to cure certain diseases, or midigate detrimental aging effects, or enhance a person's quality of life while at the same time improving their athletic performance? Many legal and thus respectable substances are used for those purposes now.


Using PEDs to give someone a competitive advantage is bull schitt, period. Using the same substance for legitimate medical purposes is a different discussion. The whole argument that is okay if "everyone else in the era was doing it" is bogus.

Athletic achievements attained with PEDs are fraud. Lance Armstrong may very well have been the most gifted road cyclist, but thanks to his doping we will never really know. Pretty sad. All we really know is that guy is a royal dick.


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## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

Vader said:


> I have to be "drug" to the starting line.


A fun bit of phraseology for this thread.


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## Rev. 14 (Jan 22, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> In this case, sounds like the motivation is to cheat at racing.
> OP made it clear that race results are the reason he's considering it.
> 
> Again: lame.


Great responses by everyone.

But, just to set the record straight, I (op) never said I was "considering" using drugs to race. What I said, or rather meant was: what is the point to enter my first race if several people are using gear. My motivation is to see where I would stack up against people. My intention is not to win because I know I'm not the best climber, but I would like to know just how bad or how good I would do. However, if many are using then will I get an accurate picture, no way. I might just enter anyway just to see how I would do.

I ride because I love to ride and I love nature. My original question was asked just to see if its really prevelant as I've heard it is. I know its being used by hollywood actors, MMA, NFL, NBA, boxing, Swimning, cycling but MTBing? I was a bit taken back by that.


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## matadorCE (Jun 26, 2013)

You need to find other people to ride with, since your 'friends' sound like total douchebags. Some people just need to feel superior to others in any way possible--doesn't matter if it's weightlifting, biking, running, etc.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BlueCheesehead said:


> Using PEDs to give someone a competitive advantage is bull schitt, period. Using the same substance for legitimate medical purposes is a different discussion. The whole argument that is okay if "everyone else in the era was doing it" is bogus.
> 
> Athletic achievements attained with PEDs are fraud. Lance Armstrong may very well have been the most gifted road cyclist, but thanks to his doping we will never really know. Pretty sad. All we really know is that guy is a royal dick.


You think Lance was alone? For every superstar busted for cheating there are dozens of others who are still heros to millions.

I'm not condoning cheating or ped's as they are now known and currently used in any way, you misunderstood me if that's what you think.


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## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

chuckha62 said:


> Doesn't that go back to my point? Doesn't matter who else knows you gained an unnatural advantage. YOU'LL know. Does personal integrity, the sense of accomplishment and satisfaction for persevering not count for anything anymore?


Unfortunately, these days, not a lot of any of that. Just seeing what people post to FB or Strava, context doesn't matter. Posting race results is the worst. Get a Cat3 3rd out of 3 people? Don't put it in context and it ends up being the same as getting a Cat1 1st out of 30.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Rev. 14 said:


> Great responses by everyone.
> 
> But, just to set the record straight, I (op) never said I was "considering" using drugs to race. What I said, or rather meant was: what is the point to enter my first race if several people are using gear. My motivation is to see where I would stack up against people. My intention is not to win because I know I'm not the best climber, but I would like to know just how bad or how good I would do. However, if many are using then will I get an accurate picture, no way. I might just enter anyway just to see how I would do.
> 
> I ride because I love to ride and I love nature. My original question was asked just to see if its really prevelant as I've heard it is. I know its being used by hollywood actors, MMA, NFL, NBA, boxing, Swimning, cycling but MTBing? I was a bit taken back by that.


Just ride and enter races as you please, I think you're way overestimating how many amateurs are using ped's. You'll have fun and see how you stack up just fine without juicing. More training is the best way to improve.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> Regardless of the actions of some Pharmaceutical Companies that are certainly behaving in an immoral manner, no matter how well you maintain your physical health, all of our bodies experience a significant decrease in health, commonly seen as reduced performance. This is fact and I assure you, Father Time waits for no one. We evolved to reach reproduction age and get our offspring going and simply weren't built to live the years that modern medicine and lifestyles permit now.
> 
> Furthermore some unhealthy aspects of the world are just unescapable, such as long work hours in front of a computer.
> 
> ...


Yes, as we age we see a significant decrease in health and reduced performance but I'm not sure I believe "that 'juicing' in a controlled environment under a doctor's supervision is a healthier choice than just aging naturally". Is it worth the tradeoff for whatever the downside is? Maybe, but maybe not.


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## Rev. 14 (Jan 22, 2012)

Harold said:


> part of the reason I don't enjoy competition much as an adult. Too many people lose their minds in the drive to win.


Agreed!!! This is part of the reason I thought about not entering a race. It's like what the... We're supposed to have a good time, good clean and fun competition is my idea for a race. The accomplishement, but it seems people get all crazy to win.

Seeing the comments about caffeine and Ephedrine and asperine sounds pretty messed up and just as dumb as using Lance Anavarstrong. That sounds like a heart attack. Oh I know, let me get my heart rate going at 180 bpm with this "eca" stack standing still and then get my heart running faster while I pedal up this incline. Ok... said the heart that exploded. What genius came up this dumb idea? Might as well use meth on the trail.

I see some guys that are not on eBikes that I see racing hills like a cheetah and how I have to ask, "Is this dude getting by with a little help with his friend Stan?" Stanozonal, or whatever its called. I remember this steroid name because it was the one Ben Johnson was caught cheating with at the Olympics in track.


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## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

Suns_PSD said:


> The 'friends' mentioned in the 1st post at a bike race, were they middle aged men? Cause if so, they very well might be enjoying and talking about the benefits of a proper HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) program which is nothing but Testosterone prescribed by a doctor with the goal of obtaining around the 'average T levels for a 30ish age male'. I would not consider that 'cheating' personally but just maintaining your body.


If these are middle aged men and on testosterone prescribed by a doctor, it's still cheating. There is a reason there are age groups in most race series. It's a way to level the playing field and race people with similar disadvantages that happen with age. One of those disadvantages is lower testosterone levels. Now if your middle aged and on testosterone treatment and want to race, race in the open class. That might even be borderline not moral, but at a minimum don't enter age specific race groups.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Rev. 14 said:


> Agreed!!! This is part of the reason I thought about not entering a race. It's like what the... We're supposed to have a good time, good clean and fun competition is my idea for a race. The accomplishement, but it seems people get all crazy to win.


Again, this is almost exclusively on internet forums. At actual races I've been in the people are friendly, helpful, and usually enjoy healthy lifestyles. The really fast guys (mostly pros) are fast because they train smart with a lot of volume.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Gasp4Air said:


> Steroids + eBike = Strava Glory


I load up on beer and cheetos to get an advantage on Strava.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Rev. 14 said:


> Great responses by everyone.
> 
> But, just to set the record straight, I (op) never said I was "considering" using drugs to race. What I said, or rather meant was: what is the point to enter my first race if several people are using gear. My motivation is to see where I would stack up against people. My intention is not to win because I know I'm not the best climber, but I would like to know just how bad or how good I would do. However, if many are using then will I get an accurate picture, no way. I might just enter anyway just to see how I would do.
> 
> I ride because I love to ride and I love nature. My original question was asked just to see if its really prevelant as I've heard it is. I know its being used by hollywood actors, MMA, NFL, NBA, boxing, Swimning, cycling but MTBing? I was a bit taken back by that.


Dig it - thanks for clarifying!


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Curveball said:


> I load up on beer and cheetos to get an advantage on Strava.


Wanna race?


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> My prediction is that in 30 years all males over about 50 will be given optimized hormones (which are just steroids) to ward off heat disease and other age related illnesses.


According to some, it will be that, and ebikes, pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

You can't let the choices that others make color your decision to race or not. Training and racing is about the process and also self-exploration.

That said, I am sure some do dope. Even at lower categories.
They dope in the same percentage that the general population does.
We take medication for blood pressure, diabetes, etc.- Instead of choosing to eat right.
We take testosterone because we are getting old and our doc tells us it is the way to go.
We take pain meds long term instead of healing the root cause of our pain.
We are a drug society.
Docs, insurance companies, and big pharma want it that way.


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

I've wondered about taking some anabolic steroids to offset the muscle wasting that comes with age (70). I would like more strength and endurance than I seem to be getting with a pretty aggressive exercise program. 

I talked to a friend who is an MD with a PhD in pharmacology about this. She says that some steroids would indeed restore some muscle mass and improve fitness. But, it comes with a big risk. Almost everyone of us has protocancers and even indolent unnoticed cancers by my age. Many of them are "hormone mediated" and can be triggered big time by steroid supplements. I already have an indolent but destructive non-Hodgkins lymphoma and don't need another death sentence.

By the way, I've taken corticosteriods too many times dealing with lymphoma driven asthma and the side effects are pretty bad.


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## Rev. 14 (Jan 22, 2012)

TRT for those over 35. The next cyclists....


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

knutso said:


> Lance and those guys slept with heart monitors, so they could get up and spin before the junk killed them in their sleep. Even with specialist doctors and an unlimited budget, that stuff fudges you. Amateur dopers have to be the stupidest SOBs out there.


The rumors are just as stupid. Dumping blood (blood donation) is what you do when RBC gets too high. There's no drug the antidote is to wake up in the middle of the night to exercise.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> The 'friends' mentioned in the 1st post at a bike race, were they middle aged men? Cause if so, they very well might be enjoying and talking about the benefits of a proper HRT *(Hormone Replacement Therapy) program which is nothing but Testosterone prescribed by a doctor with the goal of obtaining around the 'average T levels for a 30ish age male'. I would not consider that 'cheating' personally but just maintaining your body.*


That's fine if you're a 30ish age male and actually have low T, but if you're in the mid 50's and racing in the 50+ age group I consider it cheating. Most of us in our 40's and 50's don't have the same amount of testosterone as we did when we were younger, like someone else mentioned that's why we have age groups in the first place.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

joshtee said:


> If these are middle aged men and on testosterone prescribed by a doctor, it's still cheating. There is a reason there are age groups in most race series. It's a way to level the playing field and race people with similar disadvantages that happen with age. One of those disadvantages is lower testosterone levels. Now if your middle aged and on testosterone treatment and want to race, race in the open class. That might even be borderline not moral, but at a minimum don't enter age specific race groups.


This is how lance "got away" with HRT having one testicle. Not all men have low testosterone in their 50s, some have higher levels. Only some men drop due to other health factors. . The argument isnt is having natural levels cheating. But naturally if you overtrain you tank your natural production. This doesn't happen on TRT.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mbmb65 said:


> According to some, it will be that, and ebikes, pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did you just throw a Butthole Surfers line in there?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

chazpat said:


> Did you just throw a Butthole Surfers line in there?


And my time is a piece of wax falling on a termite
And it's choking on the splinters.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

You guys just won the internet!


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

chazpat said:


> Did you just throw a Butthole Surfers line in there?


Lol. I wondered if anybody would catch it. Good call.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Len Baird (Aug 1, 2017)

Race against yourself. Race for improvements, in an environment where you will push your self to -maybe past- your limit.
Seeing where you stack up doesn't sound to me like the best reason. Who cares? Improve, race against yourself from yesterday or last month or last year.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

upstateSC-rider said:


> That's fine if you're a 30ish age male and actually have low T, but if you're in the mid 50's and racing in the 50+ age group I consider it cheating. Most of us in our 40's and 50's don't have the same amount of testosterone as we did when we were younger, like someone else mentioned that's why we have age groups in the first place.


Getting off topic here and sharing some personal stuff for a different perspective:

I suppose this varies just as we all genetically vary. I've been on HRT for about 10 years now. I mentioned that I was very skinny from a motorcycle accident but I'll add that I was very boyish (not manish) looking my entire life, as many men in my family are. Furthermore I worked out very hard (admittedly often on not enough calories) and although I was lean I could never become physically larger. Earlier I mentioned that I had stupendous gains when I did 2 cycles even though I literally cut the dosage the 'gym bros' recommended to like 20%. The guys that were mentoring me thought I was a genetic freak when I gained so much lean muscle so quickly, but I know now that I had always lacked T naturally.

Later on, in my late 30s I was just dragging and on a whim my Doctor checked my hormones, he told me it was redundant since I had good sexual function and was lean and muscular appearing healthy. He was flabbergasted when the results showed I essentially had no naturally occurring T. Literally less than most women. He stated 'well it certainly shows what's possible (lean and muscular) just on good diet and exercise alone even with very low T'.

So I began HRT, before there were commercials for 'Low T' daily and it was a thing. It wasn't perfect, but I instantly developed body hair, could grow a proper beard for the first time, developed rougher skin, could gain muscle much easier, got leaner looking right away, and unfortunately began to lose my hair for the first time ever! Based on all of the above, I can only presume that I had always been deficient in T. Oddly enough I was a very reckless and aggressive young man and still was up until that time (since slowed down a lot due to a major injury).

The other thing that I have recognized is that I don't need or want the T levels the doctors consider optimum. At 'optimum' levels, I personally am prone to fits of uncontrolled rage combined with a constant need for sex, and that's not the sort of human being I am or want to be. As a result I try and maintain T levels around half of what is considered optimum and frankly I feel good at this level. My T levels are probably close to what an average healthy 47 year old male would have naturally. Is this 'cheating'? I don't know, nor do I care. The goal is to be the best I can be, with longevity and quality of life being the priorities. These levels of hormones which are higher than what my body produces naturally, are proven to be life extenders. If someone thinks I'm 'cheating' that's on them, not me, and really isn't my concern.

~ take care


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> Getting off topic here and sharing some personal stuff for a different perspective:
> 
> I suppose this varies just as we all genetically vary. I've been on HRT for about 10 years now. I mentioned that I was very skinny from a motorcycle accident but I'll add that I was very boyish (not manish) looking my entire life, as many men in my family are. Furthermore I worked out very hard (admittedly often on not enough calories) and although I was lean I could never become physically larger. Earlier I mentioned that I had stupendous gains when I did 2 cycles even though I literally cut the dosage the 'gym bros' recommended to like 20%. The guys that were mentoring me thought I was a genetic freak when I gained so much lean muscle so quickly, but I know now that I had always lacked T naturally.
> 
> ...


I'm happy for you and people that medically require HRT to lead a normal life but I think most people have issues when people supplement for the sake of race results. Congrats and thanks for sharing.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

upstateSC-rider said:


> I'm happy for you and people that medically require HRT to lead a normal life but I think most people have issues when people supplement for the sake of race results. Congrats and thanks for sharing.


+1 on this.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> Later on, in my late 30s I was just dragging and on a whim my Doctor checked my hormones, he told me it was redundant since I had good sexual function and was lean and muscular appearing healthy.





upstateSC-rider said:


> I'm happy for you and people that medically require HRT to lead a normal life but I think most people have issues when people supplement for the sake of race results. Congrats and thanks for sharing.


Hmmm. Lean, muscular, good sexual function.... sounds like he was already leading a normal, healthy life.

It's a thin line between "cheating" and health care.


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## Horseshoe (May 31, 2018)

upstateSC-rider said:


> I'm happy for you and people that medically require HRT to lead a normal life but I think most people have issues when people supplement for the sake of race results. Congrats and thanks for sharing.


I guess I take issue with the premise here. Is doping at the amateur level really that prevalent? Even among the powerlifters I know that dope, the intention isn't necessarily to "win" (one doesn't even compete) so much as it is to reach their ultimate potential. My guess (I've never competed in a mt bike race, and have no plans to) is that there is that there is a significant aging demographic in biking that are on HRT for quality of life issues vs race results. Having just turned 50 myself I will get my T checked at my next physical and will supplement when the pros outweigh the cons.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> Getting off topic here and sharing some personal stuff for a different perspective:
> 
> I suppose this varies just as we all genetically vary. I've been on HRT for about 10 years now. I mentioned that I was very skinny from a motorcycle accident but I'll add that I was very boyish (not manish) looking my entire life, as many men in my family are. Furthermore I worked out very hard (admittedly often on not enough calories) and although I was lean I could never become physically larger. Earlier I mentioned that I had stupendous gains when I did 2 cycles even though I literally cut the dosage the 'gym bros' recommended to like 20%. The guys that were mentoring me thought I was a genetic freak when I gained so much lean muscle so quickly, but I know now that I had always lacked T naturally.
> 
> ...


I did a lot of lower dosed cycles from 18-32 years old. Less than what a gym rat would taked these days. My HTPA was working fine until i got hit with Cronic Lymes Disease. You may or may not have been ok before your accident but a major heath even can shut you down.

Ive been on TRT for 10year and the most important thing is that you feel normal and healthy. Normal T levels are all over the place naturally.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

The UCI has Theraputic Use Exemptions for banned substances if they are medically required. You can read it here : http://www.cyclingcanada.ca/wp-cont...015.01.01.TUERegversion30.06.2016_Neutral.pdf

I know it's allegedly abused and manipulated by pro riders but even the UCI recognizes that if a banned substance is required for true medical reasons the rider can be allowed to use it.

There's a big difference between a physician giving you a substance for medical reasons and a guy selling you horse pills in the gym locker room.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

driver bob said:


> There's a big difference between a physician giving you a substance for medical reasons and a guy selling you horse pills in the gym locker room.


Sort of like the difference between buying weed from dude in the shady part of town and purchasing medicinal cannabis from the local dispensary? 

Joking of course but also pointing out that the end result can often be the same. I don't know for a fact but I'm guessing there's a pretty good chance I could get prescribed testosterone even though I seem to be doing just fine without it. At my age it could likely have many benefits, and one of them might happen to be improved physical performance.

I wouldn't do it though, too many potentially negative consequences, but I'm sure many do.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)




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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> You think Lance was alone? For every superstar busted for cheating there are dozens of others who are still heros to millions.
> 
> .


Lance took the process and turned it up to 11. He was also absolutely horrible to anyone that crossed his path.

I agree, though. I think it's prevalent.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Sort of like the difference between buying weed from dude in the shady part of town and purchasing medicinal cannabis from the local dispensary?
> 
> Joking of course but also pointing out that the end result can often be the same. I don't know for a fact but I'm guessing there's a pretty good chance I could get prescribed testosterone even though I seem to be doing just fine without it. At my age it could likely have many benefits, and one of them might happen to be improved physical performance.
> 
> I wouldn't do it though, too many potentially negative consequences, but I'm sure many do.


I inquired about T myself since guys my age feel the effects of time. He asked me one question; do I still get a knob. I said yes, and that was the end of that inquiry.


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## splitendz (Nov 13, 2015)

Horseshoe said:


> I guess I take issue with the premise here. Is doping at the amateur level really that prevalent? Even among the powerlifters I know that dope, the intention isn't necessarily to "win" (one doesn't even compete) so much as it is to reach their ultimate potential. My guess (I've never competed in a mt bike race, and have no plans to) is that there is that there is a significant aging demographic in biking that are on HRT for quality of life issues vs race results. Having just turned 50 myself I will get my T checked at my next physical and will supplement when the pros outweigh the cons.


Good post here. Last time I had my T checked, I was in the upper 400's. That was a few years ago (53 now). I was satisfied with that, and I generally feel good. However, if I felt bad / grumpy all the time, and my T levels were low, I would not hesitate to consider HRT. Your life is more than just your time on the bike.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Crankout said:


> I inquired about T myself since guys my age feel the effects of time. He asked me one question; do I still get a knob. I said yes, and that was the end of that inquiry.


Being 48 rolling up on 49, I wondered what the threshhold was. I wake up with wood every morning, and the other half is 19 years two months younger so...


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## joshtee (Jun 30, 2016)

Suns_PSD said:


> Getting off topic here and sharing some personal stuff for a different perspective:
> 
> I suppose this varies just as we all genetically vary. I've been on HRT for about 10 years now. I mentioned that I was very skinny from a motorcycle accident but I'll add that I was very boyish (not manish) looking my entire life, as many men in my family are. Furthermore I worked out very hard (admittedly often on not enough calories) and although I was lean I could never become physically larger. Earlier I mentioned that I had stupendous gains when I did 2 cycles even though I literally cut the dosage the 'gym bros' recommended to like 20%. The guys that were mentoring me thought I was a genetic freak when I gained so much lean muscle so quickly, but I know now that I had always lacked T naturally.
> 
> ...


I think it's cool that you fixed your problem with low Testosterone, but if you are racing, your cheating. I don't care how you get it, Doctor or on the street. Amateur racing should be about your genetics, hard work, and skill against other's genetics, hard work, and skill. Sounds like your ok with it, but it's not something others, like you say, have to live with, it's actually you that has to live with the fact that you know your racing with an unfair advantage. If your not racing, I have no problem with it.


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## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

I hate to say it, but this is one reason I think racing is just not a good idea for some people. 

I raced in two races last year, and I really don't race. One was an exhibition race at a kids race. I got caught in traffic and when I eventually safely passed, I caught a riding buddy with about a mile left. He heard me coming behind him and started making all sorts of scary mistakes. He clipped a tree, went off the trail, and was just acting like he was out of his mind. I yelled at him that he could have the "win" and he calmed down and rode in front of me for the remainder of the ride. He rolled past the finish line in front of me, in maybe 38th place. He was risking his business, and his ability to put food on the table for his family, and the rest of the riding enjoyment for the season for 38th place. Who knows why.

The other race I rode I stopped and spent over 10 minutes helping a rider fix a crappy broken chain. I got him going and sent him on his way while I packed up my pack, and within 10 minutes I caught him and passed him. He was maybe 20 years younger than me and once he finished he found me and thanked me again. But he also asked if I was "that fast" why had I stopped to help him and sacrificed probably 30 or 40 positions to waste time getting an 11 speed link to fit his 9 speed chain? I told him I didn't care about placement, I was just having a fun ride. What I didn't bother to tell him was that I had already "sacrificed" another 100 positions and 35 minutes to ride the first half of the ride with my Wife. Even if I had ridden it all maxed out I would have still only been mid pack anyway. 105th or 350th, what difference would it have made?

I'm sure my story illustrates that I don't have the "beat the other guy" mentality, and I don't get pleasure from it. If that is your thing, and I know it is for many cyclists, just try not to wreck it for the rest of us with your doping and your e-bikes and your "why even bother if I can't be first" stuff.


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## Horseshoe (May 31, 2018)

joshtee said:


> I think it's cool that you fixed your problem with low Testosterone, but if you are racing, your cheating. I don't care how you get it, Doctor or on the street.


Is it cheating though? If (as was noted below) there are exceptions for Therapeutic Use Exceptions, how can it be cheating if the rules permit it? I can see where it would be cheating if not allowed by the federation (powerlifting has the USAPL which does not recognize any use for any reason... fair enough if thems the rules) but how is it cheating if it is specifically allowed by the rules?


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

chazpat said:


> Wanna race?


Sure, but keep in mind that I'll be stopping for a beer break every second or third lap and likely a nap break on the fourth.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

joshtee said:


> I think it's cool that you fixed your problem with low Testosterone, but if you are racing, your cheating. I don't care how you get it, Doctor or on the street. Amateur racing should be about your genetics, hard work, and skill against other's genetics, hard work, and skill. Sounds like your ok with it, but it's not something others, like you say, have to live with, it's actually you that has to live with the fact that you know your racing with an unfair advantage. If your not racing, I have no problem with it.


Playing devil's advocate. That's like saying if he had cancer since its genetic he can't race if he got cured. HRT is the treatment of a disorder. He stated he doesn't take the amount to keep himself in the high range. Which is what most athletes do when they go on TRT. So his levels are lower than some 50 year olds.


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

Testosterone may not be the performance enhancement drug that everyone thinks it is.
Yes, it does help with recovery and muscle building- But it also causes weight gain in lean individuals, and can cause significant water retention.
These things will tend to make you slower instead of faster when significant climbing is involved.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Crankout said:


> Lance took the process and turned it up to 11. He was also absolutely horrible to anyone that crossed his path.
> 
> I agree, though. I think it's prevalent.


He also boned my gf (okay ex-gf) and called her while we were out, so there is that...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

splitendz said:


> Good post here. Last time I had my T checked, I was in the upper 400's. That was a few years ago (53 now). I was satisfied with that, and I generally feel good. However, if I felt bad / grumpy all the time, and my T levels were low, I would not hesitate to consider HRT. Your life is more than just your time on the bike.


At around 37-38, my T level was 14 I believe. Somewhere around there. 14 or 17 or something. Or was it 7? Either way, essentially none. 
I run about 375- 450 supplemented. 
Guys that juice for big gains, run around 1200-1600.
Interestingly enough, I'm an above average athlete at most activities and was with no T. One of the reasons that I know when a trans female lowers her testosterone that doesn't take the 'man-ness' out of her as many claim. Because I've been a male with no T and was banging strippers and racing motocross. T isn't the end all be all some claim.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

bootsie_cat said:


> Testosterone may not be the performance enhancement drug that everyone thinks it is.
> Yes, it does help with recovery and muscle building- But it also causes weight gain in lean individuals, and can cause significant water retention.
> These things will tend to make you slower instead of faster when significant climbing is involved.


Some kinds of steroids do that. Others make you very lean.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> And my time is a piece of wax falling on a termite
> And it's choking on the splinters.


Go shave your face with some mace in the dark.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Curveball said:


> Sure, but keep in mind that I'll be stopping for a beer break every second or third lap and likely a nap break on the fourth.


Cool, my kinda race!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> He also boned my gf (okay ex-gf) and called her while we were out, so there is that...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Awesome claim to fame!


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

adaycj said:


> I hate to say it, but this is one reason I think racing is just not a good idea for some people.
> 
> I raced in two races last year, and I really don't race. One was an exhibition race at a kids race. I got caught in traffic and when I eventually safely passed, I caught a riding buddy with about a mile left. He heard me coming behind him and started making all sorts of scary mistakes. He clipped a tree, went off the trail, and was just acting like he was out of his mind. I yelled at him that he could have the "win" and he calmed down and rode in front of me for the remainder of the ride. He rolled past the finish line in front of me, in maybe 38th place. He was risking his business, and his ability to put food on the table for his family, and the rest of the riding enjoyment for the season for 38th place. Who knows why.
> 
> ...


Technically, the rules state you can't accept any outside help in mountain bike racing.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I found the Outside Magazine article I was looking for. A cyclist takes T for a year and enters a road race.

https://www.outsideonline.com/1908791/i-couldnt-be-more-positive


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> He also boned my gf (okay ex-gf) and called her while we were out, so there is that...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


What's up with her? I've been hearin that she been givin that stuff out to all them graffiti guys.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

Vader said:


> Technically, the rules state you can't accept any outside help in mountain bike racing.


No, the rules for the race I'm discussing do not state that. Not at all. In fact several of the biggest race sanctioning bodies in the US specifically allow it, with stipulations, for XC races.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Suns_PSD said:


> He also boned my gf (okay ex-gf) and called her while we were out, so there is that...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk





Suns_PSD said:


> Because I've been a male with no T and was banging strippers and racing motocross. T isn't the end all be all some claim.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Were you and Lance running in the same circle?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I thought outside help means help from non-racers, racers are allowed to help each other. Pretty sure I have read it as being that way, at least for triathlons.


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## adaycj (Sep 30, 2009)

chazpat said:


> I thought outside help means help from non-racers, racers are allowed to help each other. Pretty sure I have read it as being that way, at least for triathlons.


Exactly. And we are pretty far from the 'why even bother to race if my friends are on roids' sadness that started all of this. Being a accused of cheating by a random stranger on the internet while I was riding in a race he knows nothing about illustrates the mindset some people have about these races.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I don't have a real competitive nature myself. However many people are driven very much by that, hence why racing even exists. 
I don't understand the point of paying for a race, showing up at a certain time, etc if you don't care about the results. Which is why I don't race!
Seems to me that some 'racers' miss the entire point of racing. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> I don't have a real competitive nature myself. However many people are driven very much by that, hence why racing even exists.
> I don't understand the point of paying for a race, showing up at a certain time, etc if you don't care about the results. Which is why I don't race!
> Seems to me that some 'racers' miss the entire point of racing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


It can give you a goal to work toward, with the goal often being finishing the race. Helps to motivate one to get out and train.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

mbmb65 said:


> What's up with her? I've been hearin that she been givin that stuff out to all them graffiti guys.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol, Lance is that you popping in to the Anabolic thread?
Yeah that girl got around a bit!
The post was meant as a joke although it was a completely true story.
Take care.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

mbmb65 said:


> What's up with her? I've been hearin that she been givin that stuff out to all them graffiti guys.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A little Beastie Boys to brighten my day!


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> He also boned my gf (okay ex-gf) and called her while we were out, so there is that...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Which one; Sheryl Crow?


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## CFH (Oct 27, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> Regardless of the actions of some Pharmaceutical Companies that are certainly behaving in an immoral manner, no matter how well you maintain your physical health, all of our bodies experience a significant decrease in health, commonly seen as reduced performance. This is fact and I assure you, Father Time waits for no one. We evolved to reach reproduction age and get our offspring going and simply weren't built to live the years that modern medicine and lifestyles permit now.
> 
> Furthermore some unhealthy aspects of the world are just unescapable, such as long work hours in front of a computer.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this!


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> At around 37-38, my T level was 14 I believe. Somewhere around there. 14 or 17 or something. Or was it 7? Either way, essentially none.
> I run about 375- 450 supplemented.
> Guys that juice for big gains, run around 1200-1600.
> Interestingly enough, I'm an above average athlete at most activities and was with no T. One of the reasons that I know when a trans female lowers her testosterone that doesn't take the 'man-ness' out of her as many claim. Because I've been a male with no T and was banging strippers and racing motocross. T isn't the end all be all some claim.
> ...


I'm in the same boat. Just later in life. As it appears, many think the libido is an indicator of normal T levels. Trust me, it's not. Never had an ounce of trouble in that department but about 8 years ago was having some significant health issues, constant tiredness regardless of activity, mood swings. I have a great friend that survived colon cancer and they radiated him so intensely in a last ditch effort not really expecting much longevity with his life, they cooked his balls for lack of better explanation. He survived and is doing phenomenally today. He had to go on TRT. He and I were talking about it one day and it got me wondering about my own health issues so I saw my Doc that had me tested even though my libido was normal. Sure enough, uber low with numbers just like Sun_PSD. The gels bumped it up a smidgeon but nowhere even close to a "normal" level. I was then sent to an endocrinologist that is phenomenal. First test was an MRI of Pituitary. That's usually where things can go bad and cause the issue. I was good there. Started TRT by injection. It doesn't give you any edge whatsoever when you're taking strictly monitored dosages to maintain healthy levels. You would have to go BIG in order for that to happen. There's NO WAY my doc would come close to allowing me to go there nor am I interested in going there with the side effects possible. You're gonna have to find a dirty Doc that's willing to write such an Rx. Better have a lot of cash, too because it's SUPER expensive. My insurance kicked back an Rx once due to some little BS error and it was gonna cost me about $300 for my vial that would last but a day or two for a 'roid-boy. I am monitored very closely a couple times per year. Regular PSA checks, Free T checks, always reviewing possible side effect indicators. Quite simply, I have normal levels. No extreme Free T levels, hemoglobin is within normal ranges, no superpowers. I suffer like crazy on an mtb and doing trail work just like everybody else here does. I'd never podium in a race, either...even though I could give a **** about racing.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Curious- how much do performance-enhancing drugs like this cost? Is this something that rich people do when they don't know what else to do with their money?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Horseshoe said:


> I guess I take issue with the premise here. Is doping at the amateur level really that prevalent?


I would say that at a certain level, people are taking a whole bunch of things in an effort to get better. My wife is a triathlete and at Nationals, all the women were taking things they thought would get the better times. Viagra was a common pill as they thought it would increase blood flow. Nasal sprays and caffeine pills were used by many.

Having a son who swims, I would say that steroid use is higher than you would image at the high school level. It is done simply to build muscle and do it fast.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

mack_turtle said:


> Curious- how much do performance-enhancing drugs like this cost? Is this something that rich people do when they don't know what else to do with their money?


Pretty sure that's the majority of the ones that do it.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Oh My Sack! said:


> I'm in the same boat. Just later in life. As it appears, many think the libido is an indicator of normal T levels. Trust me, it's not. Never had an ounce of trouble in that department but about 8 years ago was having some significant health issues, constant tiredness regardless of activity, mood swings. I have a great friend that survived colon cancer and they radiated him so intensely in a last ditch effort not really expecting much longevity with his life, they cooked his balls for lack of better explanation. He survived and is doing phenomenally today. He had to go on TRT. He and I were talking about it one day and it got me wondering about my own health issues so I saw my Doc that had me tested even though my libido was normal. Sure enough, uber low with numbers just like Sun_PSD. The gels bumped it up a smidgeon but nowhere even close to a "normal" level. I was then sent to an endocrinologist that is phenomenal. First test was an MRI of Pituitary. That's usually where things can go bad and cause the issue. I was good there. Started TRT by injection. It doesn't give you any edge whatsoever when you're taking strictly monitored dosages to maintain healthy levels. You would have to go BIG in order for that to happen. There's NO WAY my doc would come close to allowing me to go there nor am I interested in going there with the side effects possible. You're gonna have to find a dirty Doc that's willing to write such an Rx. Better have a lot of cash, too because it's SUPER expensive. My insurance kicked back an Rx once due to some little BS error and it was gonna cost me about $300 for my vial that would last but a day or two for a 'roid-boy. I am monitored very closely a couple times per year. Regular PSA checks, Free T checks, always reviewing possible side effect indicators. Quite simply, I have normal levels. No extreme Free T levels, hemoglobin is within normal ranges, no superpowers. I suffer like crazy on an mtb and doing trail work just like everybody else here does. I'd never podium in a race, either...even though I could give a **** about racing.


Add 1mg of Finasteride (commonly branded Propecia) to your daily routine. Some people, like you and me, struggle to get normal T levels even with supplementation. IMO, our bodies convert a lot of it to DHT. I found adding this common inexpensive pill not only ceased my hair loss (I had a super full head of hair in to my late 30s before beginning HRT, another reason I now recognize that I was always low T) but also will raise your T levels with no other changes. alldaychemist is a good reliable source for this product.

My opinion however is that DHT is much more important for good erectile performance than T, and that's why guys can have low T and still perform fine. That's my theory based on personal observation. T only helps some guys with ED, because as you increase T, DHT will naturally increase too due to conversion.

If you find a compounding pharmacy you can get a 180 day supply of topically applied T mixed up for you, it's about $80/ month. I buy Finasteride online for very cheap, 10 cents a pill or something. I also go a private lab called Any Labs where for about $179 out of pocket I get my own blood results and I carry them in to my doctor and after a brief discussion I walk out with another 6 month prescription to go get filled up at my local compounding pharmacy.

I don't even bother with insurance any longer, even if they paid (they don't) the deductibles and multiple trips cost more than me just obtaining everything on my own 1x every 6 months. I find the doctors are just average at understanding this stuff, I have to explain the basics to my doctor at times. When I first began HRT following all the rules I was spending maybe $1.4K per month on my treatment, which was never cool with me but at least at the time I could afford it. When the '08 recession hit I could not afford the prescribed method any longer and had to improvise. I average around $100/ month now and that includes all lab tests. doctors appointments, etc...

Lastly, most guys that have low T levels and struggle to get their T level higher, get an excessive amount of conversion to estrogen. If you have a decent T level, you really want around 15-25 E. If you have a lower T level, E should be even lower. You can have a touch of generic anti-E added to your compounded T for essentially free, which assist you in maintaining a healthier T level. If your joints begin to hurt, your E is too low as you do need some.

It's a medical condition like any other, and we just have to manage it to the best of our abilitities to lead a full and healthy life. It is what it is.

~ take care


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

mack_turtle said:


> Curious- how much do performance-enhancing drugs like this cost? Is this something that rich people do when they don't know what else to do with their money?


Like people with cancer just spending all their money on medical treatment right!? Rich slobs just wasting money for the heck of it... who needs medical care anyways?


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Vespasianus said:


> I would say that at a certain level, people are taking a whole bunch of things in an effort to get better. My wife is a triathlete and at Nationals, all the women were taking things they thought would get the better times. Viagra was a common pill as they thought it would increase blood flow. Nasal sprays and caffeine pills were used by many.
> 
> Having a son who swims, I would say that steroid use is higher than you would image at the high school level. It is done simply to build muscle and do it fast.


The women were taking viagra? I'm guessing the guys wouldn't as that would cause extra drag during the swim, though maybe the rudder would help one swim straight.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Suns_PSD said:


> Like people with cancer just spending all their money on medical treatment right!? Rich slobs just wasting money for the heck of it... who needs medical care anyways?


He actually has a point. There are many that do this that are rich and really don't need to do it. They do it to try to increase their manhood. But there are also those that do it for medical reasons such as yourself.


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## dir-T (Jan 20, 2004)

Vader said:


> *I never drink coffee* or soda, but half a cup of coffee before a morning race makes me feel like Superman. *I mainly drink it because* I'm not a morning person. I have to be drug to the starting line. Same thing with surfing. I hate the morning session.


Which is it man?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

dir-T said:


> Which is it man?


Lol
Apparently Vader forgot his morning cup before that post.


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> Add 1mg of Finasteride (commonly branded Propecia) to your daily routine. Some people, like you and me, struggle to get normal T levels even with supplementation. IMO, our bodies convert a lot of it to DHT. I found adding this common inexpensive pill not only ceased my hair loss (I had a super full head of hair in to my late 30s before beginning HRT, another reason I now recognize that I was always low T) but also will raise your T levels with no other changes. alldaychemist is a good reliable source for this product.
> 
> My opinion however is that DHT is much more important for good erectile performance than T, and that's why guys can have low T and still perform fine. That's my theory based on personal observation. T only helps some guys with ED, because as you increase T, DHT will naturally increase too due to conversion.
> 
> ...


Interesting info. I went off Gel within months of have been Dx'd.They just didn't work well. I also went off my GP because he was not "up" on finite details. As I said, I have an incredible Endocrinologist, which is really the Doc one needs to seek for these issues. He was quite pissed that my GP hadn't immediately ordered an MRI and instead just Rx'd Androgel to see if it worked.

I do bloodwork twice a year exclusively to track my results now that I am well balanced. At first he had me on 200mg by injection every 2 weeks. We tested regularly and determined the period wasn't appropriate and I'd peak and decline too much. 100mg/week by injection has me sitting perfectly and has been for a number of years, now. All of my testing is looking for those Estrogen levels, free T levels, etc as well as observing any physical changes that my doc inquires about. I have seriously never had a better, more thorough and precise physician, ever. Well....aside from my Neurosurgeon that saved my life with cervical surgery. I actually utilize my Endocrinologist doc as a GP but I do still have a Primary GP.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Libido is not an indicator of healthy or high T levels. Estrogen, Dopamine and dips in Testosterone have a greater effect. If your T levels are low you're risking bone loss, heart problems, metal decline and poor lipids. Making yourself healthy isn't juicing.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

mack_turtle said:


> Curious- how much do performance-enhancing drugs like this cost? Is this something that rich people do when they don't know what else to do with their money?


Black market anabolics are about a 1/3 the cost of Pharmacies

Epo and GW1516 are around 100.00 for 8weeks worth


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> Like people with cancer just spending all their money on medical treatment right!? Rich slobs just wasting money for the heck of it... who needs medical care anyways?


I would pay attention to the _performance-enhancing_ part of his question. Nothing was implied about medicinal use.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Cerberus75 said:


> Libido is not an indicator of healthy or high T levels. Estrogen, Dopamine and dips in Testosterone have a greater effect. If your T levels are low you're risking bone loss, heart problems, metal decline and poor lipids. Making yourself healthy isn't juicing.


By this point, I would hope that everyone understands the difference between using steroids for medical purposes and for physical performance enhancements.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Curveball said:


> By this point, I would hope that everyone understands the difference between using steroids for medical purposes and for physical performance enhancements.


Unfortunately, probably not. Unless you're a male urologist it's a 50/50 shot if someone understands HRT or the need for it.

Most people think decline is normal with aging. But most European men have 750 average in their 50's. They lack a lot of stressors and environmental factors that cause declined T levels.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

adaycj said:


> Exactly. And we are pretty far from the 'why even bother to race if my friends are on roids' sadness that started all of this. Being a accused of cheating by a random stranger on the internet while I was riding in a race he knows nothing about illustrates the mindset some people have about these races.


The no outside assistance was a NORBA rule. I haven't read the UCI rules recently.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Vader said:


> The no outside assistance was a NORBA rule. I haven't read the UCI rules recently.


So, what are the rules regarding beer and Cheetos before a race?


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Curveball said:


> So, what are the rules regarding beer and Cheetos before a race?


Must be Jalapeno and an IPA.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

driver bob said:


> Must be Jalapeno and an IPA.


That could certainly lay waste to the competition.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Cerberus75 said:


> Unfortunately, probably not. Unless you're a male urologist it's a 50/50 shot if someone understands HRT or the need for it.
> 
> *Most people think decline is normal with aging. But most European men have 750 average in their 50's. They lack a lot of stressors and environmental factors that cause declined T levels*.


Holy crap! Pretty amazing.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Curveball said:


> So, what are the rules regarding beer and Cheetos before a race?


True story. My friend Dave Collins (RIP) and I won our age group Cal State Super D series sharing a 12 pack before every race. It was just Coors Light though.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Vader said:


> Being 48 rolling up on 49, I wondered what the threshhold was. I wake up with wood every morning, and the other half is 19 years two months younger so...


Yeah, I think half of the ED nonsense is lack of self-confidence and not true dysfunction. I had a lull but recovered fine. It's a mental game, and the industry plays on it.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Vader said:


> True story. My friend Dave Collins (RIP) and I won our age group Cal State Super D series sharing a 12 pack before every race. It was just Coors Light though.


Honestly, water before exercise is always considered a good thing!


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

chazpat said:


> The women were taking viagra? I'm guessing the guys wouldn't as that would cause extra drag during the swim, though maybe the rudder would help one swim straight.


No the women gave it to the men. Forced them to swim, ride and run faster (to keep away from the men!).

Just kidding. The women were taking it as there was a belief that it would increase blood flow and have benefit. Viagra does not work like that and most likely had zero benefit. My point is that at the amateur level, people are taking all sorts of weird crap with the thinking it will help them.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Vespasianus said:


> No the women gave it to the men. Forced them to swim, ride and run faster (to keep away from the men!).
> 
> Just kidding. The women were taking it as there was a belief that it would increase blood flow and have benefit. Viagra does not work like that and most likely had zero benefit. My point is that at the amateur level, people are taking all sorts of weird crap with the thinking it will help them.


Yep, I take nothing, not even vitamins. I may start taking a multi vitamin again after not taking one for 15 years. Haven't felt the need to though. But according to the people that sell vitamins I need to.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

This thread delivers.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I take some steroid and have big balls. No side effects 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

From the Physicians Desk Reference, typical symptoms of low and elevated testosterone (T) levels:

Extremely Low: On the phone people mistake you for Michael Jackson
Moderately Low: You just started shaving at age 35
Slightly Low: In high school, you didn't have to walk the halls with your books in front of your crotch
Slightly High: Hit puberty before you peers
Moderately High: Muscular, have a deep voice and have to trim ear and nose hair every morning
Extremely High: Monobrow, hair on palms, bowleggedness due to testicles the size of coconuts
Off the charts: Continuous erection since 3rd grade


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Wow! I almost puked up my entire lunch after ready the garbage in this thread. :madmax:Quite possibly the stupidest, ill-informed, and insulting thread i have *EVER* read on mtbr. Sickening is the only way to describe this.

ps - hey OP, I'm looking to start a cycle next week. Can you hook me up with some Stanozolol? I will pay top $. Beast mode!!!


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

Scott O said:


> Wow! I almost puked up my entire lunch after ready the garbage in this thread. :madmax:Quite possibly the stupidest, ill-informed, and insulting thread i have *EVER* read on mtbr. Sickening is the only way to describe this.


Wow, I wonder how he really feels?


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Scott O said:


> Wow! I almost puked up my entire lunch after ready the garbage in this thread. :madmax:Quite possibly the stupidest, ill-informed, and insulting thread i have *EVER* read on mtbr. Sickening is the only way to describe this.
> 
> ps - hey OP, I'm looking to start a cycle next week. Can you hook me up with some Stanozolol? I will pay top $. Beast mode!!!


Winny(Stanozol) is one of the worst AAS to use if you do any endurance sports. Crushes cortisone and dehydration are just a few major problems. But since you're so informed, you already knew that.


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## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Cerberus75 said:


> Winny(Stanozol) is one of the worst AAS to use if you do any endurance sports. Crushes cortisone and dehydration are just a few major problems. But since you're so informed, you already knew that.


Thanks. I just need enough winny that will give me a hairy back with lots of zits. Oh, and fair warning - the next day who accuses me of skipping leg day is gonna get punched.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Scott O said:


> Thanks. I just need enough winny that will give me a hairy back with lots of zits. Oh, and fair warning - the next day who accuses me of skipping leg day is gonna get punched.
> 
> View attachment 1238227


LMAO! Looking great! You're almost a marshmallow! just keep doing what you are doing. Just don't bath and the zits will come.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

We got off on a tangent about technical assistance. Here are the current UCI rules. If you paid for a licence to race this is it. I guess it doesn't matter if you're racing sport class with beer on your breath from the night before, or racing a podunk race with a paper dinner plate for a number plate. (Both of which I've done).


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## Tribble Me (Aug 27, 2012)

If you haven't seen it, check out the movie "Icarus" on Netflix. It won the Academy Award for Best Documentary a year or so ago. The basic premise is that amateur cyclist, Bryan Fogel, wants to race in the Haute Route one year clean and then the next year dope to see how much of an effect the doping has. 
https://www.netflix.com/title/80168079

It goes into his doping routine and is the movie that lead to the Russian doping/cheating scandal.

Bryan Fogle also did a podcast with Lance Armstrong that gives a lot more info, it is in 2 parts. 

__
https://soundcloud.com/user-411867241%2Fepisode-80-bryan-fogel-part-1-the-forward-podcast-with-lance-armstrong


__
https://soundcloud.com/user-411867241%2Fepisode-80-bryan-fogel-part-2-the-forward-podcast-with-lance-armstrong

Even if you aren't a fan of Lance, this gives great detail on doping at the highest level of sports.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

Your friends are idiots! They would be better served buying an ebike if they want to ride faster and longer. Thus is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

ALimon said:


> Your friends are idiots! They would be better served buying an ebike if they want to ride faster and longer. Thus is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.


What? If you've ever started a workout regimen so you would get stronger/faster/endurance then you know why someone would consider doping to get there. Cheating and health issues set aside for a moment, the idea of moving more oxygen through my blood to feed muscles is alluring.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

jim c said:


> What? If you've ever started a workout regimen so you would get stronger/faster/endurance then you know why someone would consider doping to get there. Cheating and health issues set aside for a moment, the idea of moving more oxygen through my blood to feed muscles is alluring.


Buy an altitude tent. Move to altitude. Drink coffee. Eat beets.

Those things combined will do more to move oxygen through your body and produce aerobic power than any form of steroid*** supplementation.

(***Not including EPO, CERA, blood doping, etc.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Tribble Me said:


> If you haven't seen it, check out the movie "Icarus" on Netflix. It won the Academy Award for Best Documentary a year or so ago. The basic premise is that amateur cyclist, Bryan Fogel, wants to race in the Haute Route one year clean and then the next year dope to see how much of an effect the doping has.
> https://www.netflix.com/title/80168079
> 
> It goes into his doping routine and is the movie that lead to the Russian doping/cheating scandal.
> ...


I'm halfway through. Thanks.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Le Duke said:


> Buy an altitude tent. Move to altitude. Drink coffee. Eat beets.
> 
> Those things combined will do more to move oxygen through your body and produce aerobic power than any form of steroid*** supplementation.
> 
> ...


The beets work pretty damn good. I do a chunk of beet, a celery stalk, garlic clove, a tomato and a serrano pepper and run them through the juicer. I also squeeze a lemon into the mix. I do this most mornings. I live at 5600' too which is very noticeable at sea level. The only coffee I drink is the morning of a race and just half a styrofoam cup.


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

Vader said:


> I'm halfway through. Thanks.


I watched that maybe a year ago while recovering from back surgery. It was incredible! Especially as the russian **** hit the fan! I need to re-up my cancelled Netflix just to watch ot again.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

jim c said:


> What? If you've ever started a workout regimen so you would get stronger/faster/endurance then you know why someone would consider doping to get there. Cheating and health issues set aside for a moment, the idea of moving more oxygen through my blood to feed muscles is alluring.


I was a professional racer back when dirty was just part of being a professional racer. There is no amount of money or fame that would make sense of taking dangerous substances let alone just for fun. Wish I knew what I know today back in the day. That said, whatever my team was giving me back then, had me riding with super powers.


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## jim c (Dec 5, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Buy an altitude tent. Move to altitude. Drink coffee. Eat beets.
> 
> Those things combined will do more to move oxygen through your body and produce aerobic power than any form of steroid*** supplementation.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input, I miss those days with focus and goals. Typing this I remember the satisfaction/feeling from a podium finish after weeks of prep. My kids are aging, 1st one leaves for collage next year, so I may get back into competing. I also remember noticing the change in the joy of riding back then. Once you start 'training' instead of just riding it changes things a bit.


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Scott O said:


> Thanks. I just need enough winny that will give me a hairy back with lots of zits. Oh, and fair warning - the next day who accuses me of skipping leg day is gonna get punched.
> 
> View attachment 1238227





Cerberus75 said:


> LMAO! Looking great! You're almost a marshmallow! just keep doing what you are doing. Just don't bath and the zits will come.


I wonder what that dudes legs look like.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Tribble Me said:


> If you haven't seen it, check out the movie "Icarus" on Netflix. It won the Academy Award for Best Documentary a year or so ago. The basic premise is that amateur cyclist, Bryan Fogel, wants to race in the Haute Route one year clean and then the next year dope to see how much of an effect the doping has.
> https://www.netflix.com/title/80168079
> 
> It goes into his doping routine and is the movie that lead to the Russian doping/cheating scandal.
> ...


I just watched it and it was really fascinating. Talk about being in the right place at the right time.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

I sure hope these guys are also riding e bikes.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Tribble Me said:


> https://www.netflix.com/title/80168079


That was really good, incredible. I also watched just a little of the Lance podcast and thought it was funny when he told Bryan that he really didn't need to do all those drugs, that epo would have been enough. "All you need are more red blood cells" Or something like that.


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## tewks13 (Aug 18, 2015)

Crankout said:


> Which one; Sheryl Crow?


So... lots of interesting and funny reading on here. But was it Sheryl Crow or not? I hope not. i love her... And FWIW...my balls are huge...I didn't want to feel left out!
Go ride your bike!!:devil::drumroll::rockon:


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

tewks13 said:


> So... lots of interesting and funny reading on here. But was it Sheryl Crow or not? I hope not. i love her... And FWIW...my balls are huge...I didn't want to feel left out!
> Go ride your bike!!:drumroll::rockon:


Lol.

Sheryl Crow was his gf during this time, at least publicly.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## TrekNev82 (Jan 2, 2021)

Horseshoe said:


> I have to wonder which anabolic would help with MTBs. I'm no expert on either, but I'm coming back to MTBs after several years in powerlifting where anabolics are quite common. I never used myself (I'm fine being genetically mediocre and would be embarrassed to lift my numbers if I was juicing) but know many people that do. Most are candid about the positives (of which there are many) and negatives (plenty there too). Granted these are elite lifters at the absolute pinnacle of the sport, and they simply wouldn't be there if they didn't cycle through various drugs.
> 
> My two cents: if you want to be the best of the best, it may be necessary to supplement. For everyone else, it isn't worth the downsides when there are other things you could do (training, sleep, diet, coaching) that would give you better results.


Same as runners be for tissue repair and strength, deca,nandalone maybe a testerone blend . Wont be hard core amounts either 1 injection of each a week or 2 week depending on amount of exercise/riding.


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## Arm&Hammer (Dec 19, 2020)

The lack of understanding in this thread is mind blowing. First of all, find out what steroid they are taking, the dose and frequency. Steroids can be extremely safe and beneficial to some if done correctly and for the right reasons. Not for bike racing, also males in their late 40’s and older can get testosterone to keep their levels up as age decreases the output and is very common among older athletes. I would be surprised to find anyone is using anabolic steroids for racing but the drug of choice these days is HGH, which hard to detect and rampant in the competitive sports world 🌎.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Deca can be traced for up to 14 months. Most racers would use a therapeutic dose of testosterone so they don't have a decline from chronic training. Gw1516, ITPP and EPO are/were very popular with HGH, gw7072 and blood doping being the hot ones to use right now.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

It's been known for a while that some of the benefits of anabolic steroid use are very long-lasting and arguably permanent, even if you only use them for a short period of time:









Muscle memory discovery ends 'use it or lose it' dogma


Exercise physiologists agree: muscle memory is real. But how are these 'memories' stored? A review has a simple answer: nuclei gained during training persist even when muscle cells shrink due to disuse or start to break down. This means we can 'bank' nuclei in our youth to prevent frailty in old...



www.sciencedaily.com












Brief exposure to performance-enhancing drugs may be permanently ‘remembered’ by muscles


Brief exposure to steroids may have long lasting performance-enhancing effects on your muscles according to The Journal of Physiology.




www.physoc.org












Skeletal muscle morphology in power-lifters with and without anabolic steroids - PubMed


The morphological appearance of the vastus lateralis (VL) muscle from high-level power-lifters on long-term anabolic steroid supplementation (PAS) and power-lifters never taking anabolic steroids (P) was compared. The effects of long- and short-term supplementation were compared...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov












Once You’ve Used Steroids, Is It Possible to Ever Compete Clean Again? - Breaking Muscle


With such a provocative title, this article is not going to be preaching the virtues of drug-free sport. Rather, it will be discussing the long-term advantageous effects (potentially lifelong effects) that anabolic steroids confer on the muscles of former users. Therefore the question, is it...




breakingmuscle.com





A lot of WADA/USADA exclusion timelines seem like a bit of a joke.

If there were a legal and affordable way to take certain PEDs for a short-term period under the supervision of an experienced medical practitioner who understood your fitness goals I'd do it in a heartbeat. In that context the benefits seem to vastly outweigh the risks, which are minimal. There's also a compelling argument that certain PEDs can and should be used to keep people in better health in old age.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

RMCDan said:


> It's been known for a while that some of the benefits of anabolic steroid use are very long-lasting and arguably permanent, even if you only use them for a short period of time:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Race horses to Olympic sprinters and fighters have used the clearance time for quite some time. Winstrol is commonly used it will increase speed and power but actually hinders it until you stop taking it. EPO is short lived but the increase in red blood cells last 120 day on average.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Thinking about starting a cycle of synthol. 

Sent from my moto g(6) forge using Tapatalk


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Cerberus75 said:


> Race horses to Olympic sprinters and fighters have used the clearance time for quite some time. Winstrol is commonly used it will increase speed and power but actually hinders it until you stop taking it. EPO is short lived but the increase in red blood cells last 120 day on average.


You misunderstand me (I think). The clearance times are certainly helpful for athletes using PEDs. What I meant was that a 6-month suspension is rather dubious when short-term use of certain drugs confers career- to life-long benefits. EPO and anabolics aren't directly comparable, obviously, but EPO has effects beyond RBC production. EPO boosts mitochondrial biogenesis and mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation: Erythropoietin Treatment Enhances Muscle Mitochondrial Capacity in Humans

Like increased muscle cell nuclei from use of anabolics, increased mitochondrial counts from EPO use probably persist long after use of EPO has stopped and RBCs have returned to baseline.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

How much does EPO treatment cost?
Is it available for regular bikers? 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

Hmmm. Sylvester Stallone at age 66.


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## AangaTar (11 mo ago)

It's the first time I hear about mountain bikers using anabolics. That's as crazy as it sounds. I was always thinking that they are doing this to enjoy the nature and challenge their own endurance. I am a kind of bodybuilder myself but despite this I was trying to get the best out of my body before starting to use any supplements. My trainer recommended Rats Army SARMs as my first supplement and I was very satisfied with it as it not only helps to build the muscles but also help them to recover from training.


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

Rev. 14 said:


> Curious... I have some friends I ride with here and there that use Anabolics for MTBing. They don't use them to get big like body builders but they use the ones that provide greatest endurance to strength benefits. I think I'm in pretty good shape but I can never keep up with these guys. I mean they are on fire and I'm just surprised at how fast they are and I'm talking about on climbs and slight inclines. We're not talking down hill.
> 
> We've talked about this several times. They tell me that many people are now using anabolics in XC racing and Enduro racing. They don't look like body builders but they said there are all kinds of different anabolics. Some get you ripped, some get you big (Testosterone), some are great for endurance, some are great for strenght and some do a little of everything. I used to have college buddies who used for NCAA swimming and they didn't look like body builders either.
> 
> ...


pretty shady sport cus of drugs.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Stewiewin said:


> pretty shady sport cus of drugs.



Which sport?


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> Which sport?


cycling


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Stewiewin said:


> cycling



ok, what about all the others?


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> ok, what about all the others?


yes lol


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

ChrisHerlihy said:


> Unfortunately, now all athletes engaged in professional sports take anabolic steroids.


Well, that's going to put WADA out of business.


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## robidereck (27 d ago)

It's good that you drink creatine and protein shakes. This stuff is essential for those who want a good body and stamina. But creatine doesn't work as effectively as other anabolic substances like testolone. Testolone doubles your ability to withstand loads, especially during MTBing or strength training in the gym. Some jocks I met in my gym buy mixes and liquids. And some trainers from the gym buy arimistane for sale because they know that there are guys who want to buy this to accelerate muscle growth. Of course, they won't give you arimistane just like that, only with your doctor's permission.


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