# Discussion: E-Bikes More or Less Workout?



## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

NOTE: This thread is NOT a troll. It's a sincere attempt to have an intelligent conversation!
---
So it seems that for many "analog" bikers, a central point of resistance to e-bikes is that they're "lazy." That is, that they don't require as much work (because of the motor's assistance.)

I recently had a convo with an LBS owner who went to great lengths to convince me that e-bikes actually give you MORE of a workout than analog bikes. This surprised me, as I hadn't heard this argument before. I've since read this argument in many other places online.

It seems the premise for the argument is fairly simple: that on an e-bike, you'll ride for LONGER and ride for GREATER DISTANCES than on an analog bike. So the overall workout will be GREATER.

I have to admit this argument kinda makes sense. For example, a variation on this argument is "On an e-bike, you'll ride up instead of shuttle up for those long downhill rides."

SO: I'm interested in two things:

1. [Anecdotally] Do e-MTB owners, in fact, find yourselves riding significantly more (in terms of time and duration) on your e-bike than you did on your analog bike? Do you ride up instead of shuttle up? And do you find yourself riding your e-bike all over town for errands you may have formally done in your car?

2. [Scientifically] Have any studies been done that actually quantify total and average power output and calories burned **for an equivalent time and distance** on e-bikes versus analog bikes?

Here are my hunches for each:

1. I could see riding a bit more on an e-Bike than an analog bike, but the simple reality is...my riding time is limited! I can't just suddenly double or triple my riding time-I don't have that time. So this point seems largely moot to me.

2. Common sense suggests there is no possible way that total/average power output and calories burned on an e-bike could come anywhere close to the same on an analog bike. But I haven't seen any comparative studies, so maybe I'm wrong?

---
Again-for anyone who thinks this is a troll because you might perceive my post as anti e-bikes, you're wrong. I'm not anti e-bikes at all. I'm just trying to separate the facts from the marketing bullshit!

If, for example, this LBS owner had said to me "You know, e-bikes aren't as much work, and you're not gonna get as much exercise on them-but they are SO MUCH FUN!!! Riding one is just an incredible experience!" I would have totally bought that and been intrigued by them. Analogy: For fitness I'd rather paddle my kayak than ride a jetski (or personal watercraft)...but damn, jetskis are FUN!!! 

And if I see proof (based on science) that owning an e-bike means I'll end up (a year or two later) in better shape than if I'd kept riding my analog bike, then hell yes-i'm gonna go get one! 

Scott


----------



## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

I say no a regular bike is more of a workout. Now u can turn the motor power down, or off, but that kind of defeats the purpose. Yes you can go out for longer rides and ride further so there are advantages there. I'm sure there are those who can get a healthy workout by limiting the power but it's so easy to use! I think there is a place for both.


----------



## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

It's less of a workout. But keep it in Eco and you can get a pretty decent workout


----------



## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

Thanks—so that's 2 votes toward the "E-bikes give you more of a workout" being marketing bullshit... 

I do agree with dundundata that there is a place with both.

Scott


----------



## ron t (Jun 15, 2018)

I've noticed that on Strava, my average watts are somewhere around 200 and other unassisted riders that are similar to me in age and ability are around 100. If I assume that the motor is providing 100 watts, over 3 hours that's 300 wh, or 60% of my battery. That's a little low, so I think my average watts are more like 75 and the motor is 125 because on a 3-hour ride I'll typically use 75%. So a little less of a workout for the e-bike.

The difference is of course on the climbs. In the real world people on e-bikes bump up the power on long climbs because they can. This is where most of the watts are burned.

Downhills and technical terrain may actually be more difficult on an e-bike, so maybe we give a little back there, but I still give the nod to the unassisted bikes for total workout.

Having said that, I wouldn't even be riding if it wasn't for the e-bike. I just don't find grinding up hills slowly to be any fun at all. Since taking up the sport my overall fitness has improved, and it's given me something fun to do in the summer to use as training and maintenance for skiing in the winter, which is my #1 passion.


----------



## seamarsh (Mar 5, 2012)

There is a thread on emtb forums about this and pretty much universally everyone says their fitness declined once they started riding an ebike, and they gained weight.

Sure you might go further but uphills are where so much of the effort is on a mtb not so much on an emtb.

Someone chimed in that they were shocked when they got back on mtb after only riding emtb for a time.


----------



## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

It's possible that eBikes might induce a state of nirvana, that in effect you end up riding more, thus burning more calories


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

As an e-bike owner I'd have to say that. . . .it depends. If you are realatively fit already then and e-bike will most assuredly be less of a workout. I don't "turn the power up" on long climbs, partly because I don't need to and partly to preserve the battery. I'm fit enough that I can keep the bike in eco mode and still completely kill the battery in less time than the duration of one of my "normal" rides. Of course, I'm not working as hard on the e-bike and I'm covering more ground. 
.
I've found that my power output and heart rate on an e-bike never reach the levels they do on a regular bike. My HR tends to stay around the lower end of aerobic, only climbing on fast descents when I'm tossing the bike around a lot, rather than pedaling. 
.
As far as the "better workout" discussion goes, I can still see it. I think those of us that are fit enough to get a satisfactory ride in on a normal bike can't wrap our minds around it. Imagine someone too out of shape to ride a mile or two unassisted, or too weak to be able to turn out the watts needed to get up the hill. An e-bike allows them to overcome those initial barriers. They will be working quite hard, even if we wouldn't register that level of effort as work at all. This is something I've personally witnessed on more than one occasion. 
.
When you have someone who is grossly unfit, they need to build a baseline first. Unfortunately MTBing in certain areas tends to require a minimum level of fitness just to ride the trails. An e-bike can provide that minimum. I remember being out at Skypark and seeing a man who must have weight at least 400lbs. He was out there on a rental bike giving it a go with his family. In the time it took him to get a regular bike to the top I managed 6 runs. Every time I passed him he was pulled off on the side of the climb catching his breath. An e-bike definitely would have helped him, both with his ride and the amount of exercise he could have gotten. I've encountered plenty of middle aged men who are trying to get back into things now that family life has settled down for them. The ones I've encountered wouldn't be able to get far enough to get a decent workout in on a regular bike. 
.
Granted, once you get past a certain level of fitness you'll kill the battery before you reach the same level of workout you'd be able to on a regular bike.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I've talked to a lot of people who've ridden ebikes, from experienced riders to novices and never once heard anyone say that they got a better workout on one. Always the opposite.

The time on the bike thing could be true for many though, I'm sure ebike encourage lots of people to get out more than they otherwise would have because it's not as hard.


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

I have an e bike and i ride 12
+Hours a week vs 8 before.

The calories per hour are the same, about 500. Average heart rate and max about the same.

But i get twice the Downhill.

I don't understand how people say they don't have enough time for longer rides.

The longer rides on an e bike take less time. 
Basically if you ride an hour, you get the same workout on an e bike as on a regular bike.

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## SWriverstone (Sep 3, 2009)

More interesting replies–thanks! Sounds like everyone but rod9301 seems to think there is no contest: analog bikes are more of a workout.

At rod9301, I guess I'd ask, are you riding on flat terrain? Or climbing much? If there is a motor assisting you, how can it possibly be the same level of workout in the same amount of time? (Not saying I don't believe you—just wondering how you figure the workout is the same?)

I do recognize that e-bikes could be a real benefit and game changer for out-of-shape riders and older riders. That said, I'd also say that no matter which way you slice it, it's a shortcut. By that I mean, when I was first getting into shape to ride a regular MTB, I started out on flat ground. Anyone (even that 400lb guy) can ride a regular mountain bike on flat ground. (But maybe some folks have no flat ground to ride on? I've never seen anyplace like that though.)

I've also heard the argument (which makes sense) that e-bikes can open up new terrain to ride for even advanced, fit riders. For example, there are a few local rides not far from me that I wouldn't normally choose to ride because they're a *****! (Nothing but crazy-steep climbing for half the ride and beyond exhausting.) An e-bike would suddenly make that ride doable as a regular ride.

Scott


----------



## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

Having just clocked over 9000 miles on my Haibike FullFatSix (I began riding it in late April, 2017), I think I've enough info to give a real-life perspective.

1. First off, my Full FatSix is a trail and asphalt road rider, from trails like the local canal towpaths nearby along the Delaware and Lehigh Rivers (hence that screen name), to the sugar sand roads within the New Jersey Pine Barrens. Sugar sand the like that your typical mtb won't get through, but only a fat tired mtb will, with the proper tire pressures aired down. All of that and of course, the asphalt roadways outside the driveway. Runs of 10, 20, 50 and beyond miles are capable with this Yamaha powered ebike. Mountain grades are not to be found in this part of southern/western New Jersey; so I am a product of the land geography I live in. No singletrack mountain riding for this bike.

2. So to me, the sport of mtb'ing is not pigeon holed into just slogging up a mountain single track just so you can free-ride coast down the other side. All of my rides, be it local, towpath or sugar sand pine forest, feature no freebies. It's all pedaling. Granted, because of that, I guess there are bike handling dynamics the mountain folks may have that I don't. On the other hand, I don't think there are any mile marker signs on those trails that says you have just another 60 miles to go before you are home again and the ride put into the log books.

3. A local LBS guy has a stake in selling you that 3-6 grand ebike as he stands to collect more profit from that compared to an analog bike. So he has some hidden motives going on.

4. Saturday, I did a 60 mile round trip run, 100% asphalt bike lane next to a busy coastal Delaware and Maryland Route 1. A coolish northeast wind was blowing; so there was a headwind to deal with on my return trip to Delaware. Using the High power setting, for long stretches I was spending time running 17 to 19 mph, a good many instances over 20 and assist cut-out. What I have found with my ebike is that I could push myself hard if I wished, using High power, by staying at or near motor assist cutout. Cutout itself was even more of a work out with these 4.0 inch wide fatbike tires. _The great thing about these bikes is that you could pace yourself, push yourself, rest yourself at various moments within that ride._ Want more of an aerobic workout? Power down the assist, then go for it. I cannot speak for other drive systems, but the Yamaha features a traditionally sized front set of chain rings. With power off, you are just pedaling a bicycle, albeit, a heavier then normal fat bike.

5. On my ride Saturday, I was under the gun to complete my run before sundown and the closing of the park where my truck was parked; so HIGH power it was.

6. Saturday's ride was 60 miles. The week before, I did a 70 miler on the nearby canal towpaths. This past summer, I rode the ebike from my homebase on the Delaware River side of Western New Jersey, to the east and the Atlantic Ocean at Mantoloking, NJ and back, pushing 90 miles total. If you like riding long distance, the ebike (and some spare batteries) will open up rides not possible with an analog if you are short on time allowed for biking.

7. Again, I want to emphasize that via switching power level settings or playing around at max speed in the High power setting, the degree of the aerobic workout you put into the ride is variable and can be just as taxing as any analog bike. Except you will go further. And you will be traveling at a much greater average speed. And that applies to water level style riding as it does slogging up a grade or a mountain.

It's just what the rider is willing to put into and commit to, within that particular ride. Myself, I like to ride cause it's just plain fun. As well, it provides enough of a cardio workout to keep my cardiologist happy.








12 October 2019. Cape Henlopen State Park, Lewes, Delaware. 63 mile round trip from Cape Henlopen to 100th Street, Ocean City Maryland....complete


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Wouldn't it depend on the rider's intentions? If you ride to go as fast as possible, the workout should be similar. If you want to make the climbs easier, the workout will be less. Since my experience says that most e-bikers want to make the climbs easier, they would use less energy in the same time as a regular mountain bike.


----------



## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

I should add that ebikes are alot easier on the ole back, knees and whatever else ails ya...so there may be a longevity benefit where you don't get so burnt out. After all we're not spring chickens forever. I would just caution riding ebikes only for awhile and then hopping on a regular ride, it can be a rude awakening!


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

rod9301 said:


> I have an e bike and i ride 12
> +Hours a week vs 8 before.
> 
> The calories per hour are the same, about 500. Average heart rate and max about the same.
> ...


I average twice the calories per hour on my regular bike than I do on my e-bike. Of course, I also ride with a HR monitor and power meter so I can also see where that is coming from. On my regular bike I may average a bit over 200w for a ride, but I'm likely bouncing between 200-800w when actually working, where I'm usually well under 200w on the e-bike the majority of the time. My HR on the e-bike tends to stay under 145bpm where I'm regularly hitting the 160s and pushing into the 170s at times on my regular bike, which for me is very close to my theoretical max at 180. E bike riding is much closer to steady state exercise where my regular bike ride is peppered with random high intensity intervals, some much longer than others.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Wouldn't it depend on the rider's intentions? If you ride to go as fast as possible, the workout should be similar. If you want to make the climbs easier, the workout will be less. Since my experience says that most e-bikers want to make the climbs easier, they would use less energy in the same time as a regular mountain bike.


Well, if "as fast as possible" is already attainable on a regular bike then riding an e-bike just makes it less work. . . . .


----------



## seamarsh (Mar 5, 2012)

scatterbrained said:


> As an e-bike owner I'd have to say that. . . .it depends. If you are realatively fit already then and e-bike will most assuredly be less of a workout. I don't "turn the power up" on long climbs, partly because I don't need to and partly to preserve the battery. I'm fit enough that I can keep the bike in eco mode and still completely kill the battery in less time than the duration of one of my "normal" rides. Of course, I'm not working as hard on the e-bike and I'm covering more ground.
> .
> I've found that my power output and heart rate on an e-bike never reach the levels they do on a regular bike. My HR tends to stay around the lower end of aerobic, only climbing on fast descents when I'm tossing the bike around a lot, rather than pedaling.
> .
> ...


totally good and valid points.. ive always approached this from a 'already have decent fitness ride mtb 2-3 times per week angle.. If you are an advanced rider who is putting in the miles there is just no way an ebike can give you same amount of a work out.. but for others that are not in great shape they will definitely get in better shape than riding a couch.

Where I think ebikes could/can make a difference in fitness for advanced rider is if you are still riding mtb consistently but on days one would normally rest you are on ebike...

But if I sold my mtb and bought an emtb I would not expect to keep my same level of cardio fitness unless I was not using assist levels higher than eco.. which to me seems insane.. If I get an ebike im blazing around on turbo everywhere.. why wouldnt I??


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

seamarsh said:


> totally good and valid points.. ive always approached this from a 'already have decent fitness ride mtb 2-3 times per week angle.. If you are an advanced rider who is putting in the miles there is just no way an ebike can give you same amount of a work out.. but for others that are not in great shape they will definitely get in better shape than riding a couch.
> 
> Where I think ebikes could/can make a difference in fitness for advanced rider is if you are still riding mtb consistently but on days one would normally rest you are on ebike...
> 
> But if I sold my mtb and bought an emtb I would not expect to keep my same level of cardio fitness unless I was not using assist levels higher than eco.. which to me seems insane.. If I get an ebike im blazing around on turbo everywhere.. why wouldnt I??


Yeah, I primarily use my Levo either on recovery days, days that I'm short for time, or as an e-shuttle for getting a bunch of runs in before lunch.

BTW, blitzing everywhere in Turbo mode will kill the battery before you heart rate even gets going, but it can be fun on some twisty singletrack when you're chasing an E-KOM.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

scatterbrained said:


> Well, if "as fast as possible" is already attainable on a regular bike then riding an e-bike just makes it less work. . . . .


As fast as your fitness allows, to be more specific.


----------



## kaleidopete (Feb 7, 2015)

I keep pretty accurate records of my rides. I ride a state park with roads, fire roads and singletrack. I ride about two hours every day. yes, every day year round outside in northern New Jersey. I started slowly riding in 2014. Farley Fat bike. By 2017 I was riding a lot more and in 2018 I rode every day, 365, my miles were 3652 for the year. My average mph. for the year was a measly 5.2 In 2019 I got my Trek Powerfly Ebike because of medical issues and general fatigue. (old age). So far this year 10/15 I've clocked 3416 miles and have an average yearly mph of a whopping 6.2. I've also noticed my heart rate and watts have remained the same over the years regardless of what bike I'm riding. I'm still out there every day having fun and I'm sure this Ebike is what's keeping me going, but I love it and it's just what I need. At seventy five years old I don't give a ****. I'm just havin' fun.


----------



## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

kaleidopete said:


> I keep pretty accurate records of my rides. I ride a state park with roads, fire roads and singletrack. I ride about two hours every day. yes, every day year round outside in northern New Jersey. I started slowly riding in 2014. Farley Fat bike. By 2017 I was riding a lot more and in 2018 I rode every day, 365, my miles were 3652 for the year. My average mph. for the year was a measly 5.2 In 2019 I got my Trek Powerfly Ebike because of medical issues and general fatigue. (old age). So far this year 10/15 I've clocked 3416 miles and have an average yearly mph of a whopping 6.2. I've also noticed my heart rate and watts have remained the same over the years regardless of what bike I'm riding. I'm still out there every day having fun and I'm sure this Ebike is what's keeping me going, but I love it and it's just what I need. At seventy five years old I don't give a ****. I'm just havin' fun.


Pete: I tried to contact you via PM but you are not set up to recieve them. I want to extend an invitation to you to participate in the Fat Biking And Health thread over in the Fat Bikes forum of this site. Lotsa good, like minded people there to help encourage you in continuing to use that fat ebike as a health tool, while also encouraging you to post up your ride reports on your Trek. If you come over that will make 2 Jerseyites populating the forum. We also have a guy who hails from across the river in Bristol, PA. Great bunch of people and I hope you consider posting your adventures there.

Mike


----------



## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

More of a workout. 

You can ride longer. If you are "kinda tired", you don't stop, you can ride an extra lap with a higher assist. 

If you ride that same distance as a regular bike, you just do it faster. In that case, it would probably be close to a wash giving the edge to the regualar bike.

We now need to discuss is road biking is more or less of a workout than mountain biking.


----------



## Hambone70 (May 8, 2019)

Coming to a trail near you (already seen similar machines on the Arizona Trail), as ebikes become trail-legal:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/juiced-scorpion-moped-style-e-bike?gclid=Cj0KCQjw3JXtBRC8ARIsAEBHg4m19wH4whwz3826aWRobVfnKvjSveGlBYtBXq3JL8s8FLuZigsxkAEaAjDZEALw_wcB#/

A better workout? I don't think so.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> What I have found with my ebike is that I could push myself hard if I wished, using High power, by staying at or near motor assist cutout. Cutout itself was even more of a work out with these 4.0 inch wide fatbike tires. _The great thing about these bikes is that you could pace yourself, push yourself, rest yourself at various moments within that ride._


_

You can do the same with a regular bicycle too. Glad that's working out for you though!_


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ziscwg said:


> More of a workout.
> 
> You can ride longer. If you are "kinda tired", you don't stop, you can ride an extra lap with a higher assist.
> 
> ...


Different people ride different ways I guess, pretty much no one I ride with just stops when they're "kind of tired" though.

Road biking or mountain biking can be equally hard, or easy. Ebikes too I guess.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

You could ask the opposite question: Is it less effort to ride an ebike?

You know the answer ....


----------



## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Hambone70 said:


> Coming to a trail near you (already seen similar machines on the Arizona Trail), as ebikes become trail-legal:
> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/juiced-scorpion-moped-style-e-bike?gclid=Cj0KCQjw3JXtBRC8ARIsAEBHg4m19wH4whwz3826aWRobVfnKvjSveGlBYtBXq3JL8s8FLuZigsxkAEaAjDZEALw_wcB#/
> 
> A better workout? I don't think so.


Sure, go ahead....do and off-camber turn on that thing. Maybe on a MUT, but nothing dirt.


----------



## howardv (Nov 11, 2016)

Is it better to spend an hour in a gym doing various reps with 100 lbs weights or doing more reps with 50 lbs? 

With an e-bike, you can climb and go down the same hill 2-3 times vs. once with a regular bike. 

Personally, I ride my regular bike 80% of the time and my e-bike 20%. It's easier to gauge your performance with a regular bike and see your improvement over time. I like seeing how my time has improved in various segments (using Strava) over the years. Hard to do that with an e-bike.

When I first got my ebike (early 2018), I was going on rides which were not possible with my regular bike (distance and climbing). I actually came home with sore legs after my ebike ride. I would not have sore legs from my regular bike. This showed me that the e-bike is quite capable of being an awesome workout in addition to the fun. 

I truly love both bikes. And I love the sport. In summary, I do believe an e-bike can be just as much of a workout (if not more) as a regular bike, if YOU want it to be.


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

I say it can be zero workout and strictly throttle with zero pedaling, or it can be pure pedal power.

On one side there is the aspect that ebikes will get people off the couch and onto riding and its their choice as to what assist level, if any at all.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

How would adding a motor assist give more of a work out? Take a 10 miles loop, with say 500 ft of vert. Same ride with an e bike vs a normal mt bike.


----------



## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

seamarsh said:


> There is a thread on emtb forums about this and pretty much universally everyone says their fitness declined once they started riding an ebike, and they gained weight.
> 
> Sure you might go further but uphills are where so much of the effort is on a mtb not so much on an emtb.
> 
> Someone chimed in that they were shocked when they got back on mtb after only riding emtb for a time.


I lost weight after I got my eBike; I'm down 17 lbs. About two-thirds of my eBike usage is commuting but my bike setup is optimized for trail riding. It's different for me though; my joint health is poor so I need full suspension even for commuting and was down to one commute and one five mile trail ride per week before I got the eBike. Now I commute every day plus ride eight to twelve miles on a trail ride but also ride to the trailhead. The eBike is the difference between riding and not riding for me so a huge gain but not relative to when I was healthy and riding my mountain bike twenty or thirty miles or so on a typical ride and getting up early once or twice a week to keep fit for the longer rides.

A big point in favor of the eBike is that the mid-week workouts aren't necessary to enjoy longer or tougher weekend rides. A less-dedicated rider can still enjoy the sport; I think that a lot of the eBikes sold aren't going to be ridden as much as the mountain bikes they replaced. Probably not as true for younger riders but since my mid-forties I've had to incorporate training to enjoy the longer rides that I really liked. eBikes will open the trails for more casual riders.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

hikerdave said:


> I lost weight after I got my eBike; I'm down 17 lbs. About two-thirds of my eBike usage is commuting but my bike setup is optimized for trail riding. It's different for me though; my joint health is poor so I need full suspension even for commuting and was down to one commute and one five mile trail ride per week before I got the eBike. Now I commute every day plus ride eight to twelve miles on a trail ride but also ride to the trailhead. The eBike is the difference between riding and not riding for me so a huge gain but not relative to when I was healthy and riding my mountain bike twenty or thirty miles or so on a typical ride and getting up early once or twice a week to keep fit for the longer rides.
> 
> A big point in favor of the eBike is that the mid-week workouts aren't necessary to enjoy longer or tougher weekend rides. A less-dedicated rider can still enjoy the sport; I think that a lot of the eBikes sold aren't going to be ridden as much as the mountain bikes they replaced. Probably not as true for younger riders but since my mid-forties I've had to incorporate training to enjoy the longer rides that I really liked. eBikes will open the trails for more casual riders.


I think your example is the crux of the matter.

Riding an eBike the same amount of time as one does a pedal bike is not going to be a better workout if a motor is assisting.

Riding an eBike MORE than one rides a pedal bike has the opportunity to give one a better workout simply because you are now exercising MORE times than you did before.

There is no black and white answer here, depends on the circumstances. For my current circumstances getting an eBike would not allow for me to get MORE exercise because I just don't have the time to ride my bike more. For Hiker Dave he had the time for more exercise, but did not have the physical ability to do so, thus the eBike allowed him to ride more. If dave did not have the health issues and was able to ride his pedal bike MORE, then the pedal bike would be better exercise than the eBike......


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I can't imagine how an e-bike would be more, or even equal, a workout to an analog bike all other things being equal (ex. fitness, intensity, duration). That makes no sense at all to me.


----------



## shreddr (Oct 10, 2009)

Crankout said:


> I can't imagine how an e-bike would be more, or even equal, a workout to an analog bike all other things being equal (ex. fitness, intensity, duration). That makes no sense at all to me.


Intensity being equal would make the workout the same. What would be different is the average speed which would be higher on the ebike.

It's a pretty simple concept. Ebikes add to what you do, not replace it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## b1rdie (Mar 11, 2011)

Its simple if you ride three times faster and then stop at the gimm on the way back. Or maybe run three times the same loop. One thing I would never do to get a work out is to ride an ebike without assist.


----------



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

The workout is similar, but obviously not the same. If you compare a one day workout of equal time and distance, then the bike without the motor is going to burn more calories. The key is you are still getting a workout. Plus most people on ebikes ride more often and slightly further, because ebikes are a blast to ride! I ride almost everyday, I didn’t do that on my other bike. If you look at over a month period of time, I would imagine people riding ebikes are burning more calories! But there’s more to riding bikes than just burning calories. I would imagine riding bikes, your leg muscles that push the bike forward on really hard climbs are stronger than riders on ebikes. Again both groups are getting a good workout, just slightly different. 

When I was a off-road dirt bike rider. I would go out for 40 miles, refill gas, grab some food and go out for another 40 miles. Then stop off at Del Taco for 10 tacos and still be about 5lbs lighter than when I started out as. Did I just burn a ton of calories? Hell yeah! Just because it has a motor doesn’t mean you are not getting a workout, just means the workout is different. Better than just sitting around on the couch watching TV. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

notb said:


> I've noticed that on Strava, my average watts are somewhere around 200 and other unassisted riders that are similar to me in age and ability are around 100. If I assume that the motor is providing 100 watts, over 3 hours that's 300 wh, or 60% of my battery. That's a little low, so I think my average watts are more like 75 and the motor is 125 because on a 3-hour ride I'll typically use 75%. So a little less of a workout for the e-bike.
> 
> The difference is of course on the climbs. In the real world people on e-bikes bump up the power on long climbs because they can. This is where most of the watts are burned.
> 
> ...


I don't think you can use the Strava watts for anything meaningful if you are on an e-bike, even if you log it as an e-bike. Strava doesn't ask you for how many watts you are using for electricity, it simply calculates the watts that a non-ebike rider would use, again even if you log it as an e-bike ride. Personally, whatever electric watt average I choose is roughly what Strava comes up with. If I average 160 watts of electricity, Strava says my average 'total' watts were around 160. It's not proportional. I mentioned this earlier in a different thread: you can't add electric watts plus human watts to get a linear total. Now if there is an app out there that separates electric watts from human watts, let me know! Until then you just have to guess at how many human watts you are using, probably 50-100 on an e-bike on average. So you may very well be using 75 watts of human power, but the majority of power will almost always come from the electricity due to the bike being heavier and the motor drag. If you are calculating 75 watts human and 125 watts electric that's a decent workout for an e-bike.

Last night I did a typical weekday pavement/hardpack off the side of the road loop. Normal electric watt range was about 110, with some climbs of 200W. Let's say 130W average electric only, not including pedaling. Strava calculated 147W average power. I know that just pedaling alone with low resistance is going to be more than 17W (I pedaled the whole time on flats and inclines), so you can't rely on Strava getting the electric + human power right. The real combined watts were probably closer to 180.


----------



## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

I mostly ride in very hilly terrain and switching to an e-bike really changed what I would was doing out in the woods. Where before it was part recreational rides and part rides to get out and do trail maintenance the e-bike made hauling tools and supplies so much easier I now do very few recreational rides and almost all for trail maintenance. My work output in the trail maintenance dept easily tripled; I could get on site quicker, with more tools and be not at all tired from the ride.

So I'm burning triple energy doing trail work and far less on the bicycle (e-bike); bottom line is that I gained about 10 pounds and that's holding pretty steady. Pick and shovel cardio is different that bicycling cardio.


----------



## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> I don't think you can use the Strava watts for anything meaningful if you are on an e-bike, even if you log it as an e-bike. Strava doesn't ask you for how many watts you are using for electricity, it simply calculates the watts that a non-ebike rider would use, again even if you log it as an e-bike ride. Personally, whatever electric watt average I choose is roughly what Strava comes up with. If I average 160 watts of electricity, Strava says my average 'total' watts were around 160. It's not proportional. I mentioned this earlier in a different thread: you can't add electric watts plus human watts to get a linear total. Now if there is an app out there that separates electric watts from human watts, let me know! Until then you just have to guess at how many human watts you are using, probably 50-100 on an e-bike on average. So you may very well be using 75 watts of human power, but the majority of power will almost always come from the electricity due to the bike being heavier and the motor drag. If you are calculating 75 watts human and 125 watts electric that's a decent workout for an e-bike.
> 
> Last night I did a typical weekday pavement/hardpack off the side of the road loop. Normal electric watt range was about 110, with some climbs of 200W. Let's say 130W average electric only, not including pedaling. Strava calculated 147W average power. I know that just pedaling alone with low resistance is going to be more than 17W (I pedaled the whole time on flats and inclines), so you can't rely on Strava getting the electric + human power right. The real combined watts were probably closer to 180.


I can pair Strava with my Haibike Yamaha PW-SE so that Strava uses rider watts. (I'm not a Strava user; just that one test ride)


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

richj8990 said:


> I don't think you can use the Strava watts for anything meaningful if you are on an e-bike, even if you log it as an e- bike


Strava power numbers are just an educated rough guestimate and it's as accurate (or inaccurate) whether you use a motor or not. Strava don't know, or care, it just crunches the numbers.

A crank or pedal power meter would accurately tell you how much power you're producing.


----------



## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

i have never ridden a motor-assisted bike.

i get most of my workout on my bike from the uphill efforts. if i had motor assist i have to believe the workout would be much less. i don't mind the grind.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Crankout said:


> I can't imagine how an e-bike would be more, or even equal, a workout to an analog bike all other things being equal (ex. fitness, intensity, duration). That makes no sense at all to me.


When ridden the same exact amount of time as you would a pedal bike, then no, and eBike is less exercise if the motor is assisting you.

It becomes a better workout when you look at a scenario like Hiker Dave below, but in all reality it is not hte motor that is making for a better workout, it is the increase in activity. Going from 1 ride a week to 5 rides a week is going to be "better exercise" for the week.

What is being touted is that some people will ride more with an eBike because they are so fast and fun to ride, where as they would not have the self discipline or the physical health to go more on their pedal bike.



mtbbiker said:


> The workout is similar, but obviously not the same. If you compare a one day workout of equal time and distance, then the bike without the motor is going to burn more calories. The key is you are still getting a workout. Plus most people on ebikes *ride more often and slightly further*, because ebikes are a blast to ride! *I ride almost everyday, I didn't do that on my other bike.* If you look at over a month period of time, I would imagine people riding ebikes are burning more calories! But there's more to riding bikes than just burning calories. I would imagine riding bikes, your leg muscles that push the bike forward on really hard climbs are stronger than riders on ebikes. Again both groups are getting a good workout, just slightly different.
> 
> When I was a off-road dirt bike rider. I would go out for 40 miles, refill gas, grab some food and go out for another 40 miles. Then stop off at Del Taco for 10 tacos and still be about 5lbs lighter than when I started out as. Did I just burn a ton of calories? Hell yeah! Just because it has a motor doesn't mean you are not getting a workout, just means the workout is different. Better than just sitting around on the couch watching TV.


And to counter this, someone who goes out and buys an eBike and still rides the same amount of time each week as they did on their pedal bike will have the opposite happen for them, less exercise, lose muscle, gain fat.

In the end it is about the frequency of exercise, not the tool being used to exercise.


----------



## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

it might be a longer workout, but it's certainly not harder...


----------



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> it might be a longer workout, but it's certainly not harder...


It sure can be! Just go out riding with other ebikers and you'll be in a world of pain! Just like going out with other riders, you try to go faster everywhere and next thing you know, your lungs are killing, legs are dead, you look down and your bike is on it's last bar flashing RED!!!

Again, as pointed out, this is just another tool to get a great workout in! How you use it is up to you:thumbsup:


----------



## jcmonty (Apr 11, 2015)

For me it's a bit blurry, but I track all my rides with HR, power (from ebike), and strava because #stats.

For the same distance and elevation, with time being a variable - MTB is more of a workout. Primarily because it will take me longer to do that same ride.

For the same time with distance and elevation being variables - it depends. I will tend to go faster and climb more on my ebike which ups the effort. Heart rates are mostly consistent between the two.

The other aspect of the ebike is that I find it to be much more of a full body workout because of the weight and my riding style. More mass to muscle around.

I find that my sprinting efforts are less on a ebike given the assist, but that doesn't mean you can't sprint on an ebike.

Overall - I ride more because I have an ebike, which I find can make some trails more fun and you get more DH overall. So, in that sense it's made me "fitter" since I am on the bike more.


----------



## sirsam84 (Sep 20, 2006)

I tend to use the Ebike mostly in Eco to save battery and get a better workout than the higher assist modes. For a same distance and elevation ride, no question MTB is more of a workout than Emtb. However, I find a pretty strong psychological boost from that assist and find myself pushing probably as hard on the Emtb as I would on the MTB, just going significantly faster. Likely the same power/watts are going into the E, just getting the motor derived watts on top. Therefore, for the same time period, maybe I’m getting similar benefits, just with many more miles traveled with the E. This is all subjective and not backed up by much data of course...I think my heart rates have been pretty similar to what I do with the MTB, with the possible exception of those really steep sections I can barely pedal up on an MTB which are pretty much redlining the heart....

Definitely quite easy to not push as hard and get a bit less to much less of a workout. Kinda up to you...

Also nice to have the option to do more of a constant cardio type workout rather than more interval style as MTB tends to be, at least in places with some decent elevation changes.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Go ride a real bike in the easiest gear for a mile then ride it in the hardest gear for a mile. Then tell me its the same workout. Yes your heart rate will go up but you will never get the same workout. Both will be very intense. 

Bikes with motors are better than no exercise at all but do not compare to a real bike.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

mtbbiker said:


> It sure can be! Just go out riding with other ebikers and you'll be in a world of pain! Just like going out with other riders, you try to go faster everywhere and next thing you know, your lungs are killing, legs are dead, you look down and your bike is on it's last bar flashing RED!!!
> 
> Again, as pointed out, this is just another tool to get a great workout in! How you use it is up to you:thumbsup:


Right, but it is so much easier with a motor, how do you not see that? Its better than siting on the couch dong nothing,but its not better than riding a real bike.

People training for marathons don't go for long walks to train.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Go ride a real bike in the easiest gear for a mile then ride it in the hardest gear for a mile. Then tell me its the same workout. Yes your heart rate will go up but you will never get the same workout. Both will be very intense.
> 
> Bikes with motors are better than no exercise at all but do not compare to a real bike.


You can apply the same amount of force to the pedals on either bike so the workout can be the same. I agree that probably very few people do that though.


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

leeboh said:


> How would adding a motor assist give more of a work out? Take a 10 miles loop, with say 500 ft of vert. Same ride with an e bike vs a normal mt bike.


For the same distance it would be less work.

But per hour is the same, you just cover more distance

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> I think your example is the crux of the matter.
> 
> Riding an eBike the same amount of time as one does a pedal bike is not going to be a better workout if a motor is assisting.
> 
> ...


An e bike and a regular bike will provide the same without per hour

Assuming you go at your capacity, or you go at the same heart rate

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rod9301 said:


> ...But per hour is the same, you just cover more distance


It can be the same but for 9/10 people I doubt it's even close. Every person I've talked to after a test ride on one comments how much easier climbing is, thus the appeal.


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

be1 said:


> i have never ridden a motor-assisted bike.
> 
> i get most of my workout on my bike from the uphill efforts. if i had motor assist i have to believe the workout would be much less. i don't mind the grind.


That's the key, you've never ridden one, but you have an opinion.

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Go ride a real bike in the easiest gear for a mile then ride it in the hardest gear for a mile. Then tell me its the same workout. Yes your heart rate will go up but you will never get the same workout. Both will be very intense.
> 
> Bikes with motors are better than no exercise at all but do not compare to a real bike.





sfgiantsfan said:


> Right, but it is so much easier with a motor, how do you not see that? Its better than siting on the couch dong nothing,but its not better than riding a real bike.
> 
> People training for marathons don't go for long walks to train.


I think you suffer from EDS (Ebike Derangement Syndrome). If you have read my previous post, I said for a given day and riding the same distance and time a regular mountain bike will give you more of a workout. But when riding with other ebikers that are capable of going the same speed, the game changes and you are pushed much harder and this workout is easily equalled to a normal bike.

If you not an ebike owner and have not ridden with other ebike riders, I will assume you have no clue what you are talking about, because of your EDS condition! Come down to So Ca, rent an ebike or going riding with FC and you will see, an ebike in this situation is pretty darn intense.

The bottom line, ebike is just another tool to help get a person out there and still get almost as good as a work. Ebike are so much fun, maybe that person (me) gets out almost every single day, then an ebike will give you a better overall work out then a regular bike.


----------



## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

kaleidopete said:


> I keep pretty accurate records of my rides. I ride a state park with roads, fire roads and singletrack. I ride about two hours every day. yes, every day year round outside in northern New Jersey. I started slowly riding in 2014. Farley Fat bike. By 2017 I was riding a lot more and in 2018 I rode every day, 365, my miles were 3652 for the year. My average mph. for the year was a measly 5.2 In 2019 I got my Trek Powerfly Ebike because of medical issues and general fatigue. (old age). So far this year 10/15 I've clocked 3416 miles and have an average yearly mph of a whopping 6.2. I've also noticed my heart rate and watts have remained the same over the years regardless of what bike I'm riding. I'm still out there every day having fun and I'm sure this Ebike is what's keeping me going, but I love it and it's just what I need. At seventy five years old I don't give a ****. I'm just havin' fun.


 About the same here, a similar workout no matter what I ride: riding the fat ebike up a steep rocky trail, or my town ebike on a paved road, I tend to put out the same amount of power. More a habit then anything else, I'm just used to pushing X amount on the pedals, while keeping a similar cadence, no matter what I'm riding. Not an old fart like you though, only 70......!


----------



## sirsam84 (Sep 20, 2006)

be1 said:


> i have never ridden a motor-assisted bike.
> 
> i get most of my workout on my bike from the uphill efforts. if i had motor assist i have to believe the workout would be much less. i don't mind the grind.


I actually (usually) "like" the uphill grind on an MTB too, especially if it is a tech singletrack climb (I'm one of those weirdos that actually gets huge endorphin rush from cardio)...for me, the main E benefit is the increased downhill reps I can get...changes the work (albeit kinda fun) to downhill ratio....


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Thinking about it, I don't even look at my current bike as a source of a workout. I just see getting more fit through riding as a way to get to a stage that I can enjoy riding more, by progressing to a level where I can actually work on technical skills. Fitness is a barrier in mtb progression. I don't feel like grinding out miles and elevation as a rite of passage; in fact, I've been throwing money at this problem by scoping out upgrades. In reality, my "workouts" are half-assed anyways, as I find myself pacing my effort in order to last long enough to use up my free time allotted for riding. If I ever tried to do intervals and climb repeats, I undoubtedly expect to find myself inconvenienced/recovering for days. My bod doesn't look athletic at all, doing this riding thing exclusively for years--I had a better bod from just doing minimal amounts of military-styled calisthenics.

With an emtb, I probably could go all out any time I felt like it. Being off the bike for a while probably won't be a strong excuse any more. Even if I am huffing and puffing to recover from those short hard efforts, the motor assist is there to help. I learned long ago to not be foolish to show up and blow up on a mountain bike.

I imagine that emtb would have me in the gym doing strength training, if I really wanted to progress, since the emtb needs strength to be manhandled. That weight training probably translates better to real world fitness than can be utilized in other activities. I don't believe seated pedaling fitness translates to well to any other activities; people say the cardio does, but I'm skeptical. Will I be able to run more than a mile if I never ran, and only biked, with that cardio? No, I tried. I learned that I need to work on the muscles specific for running and actually practice running a mile repeatedly, to get better times.

I'll spend all my weight weenie carbon upgrade money on motor assist once emtbs get dialed enduro-like geo, since I see all sorts of positive trade-offs. Being a fun alternative to a car, and the soul-sucking commutes, is just one of them.


----------



## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

Crankout said:


> I can't imagine how an e-bike would be more, or even equal, a workout to an analog bike all other things being equal (ex. fitness, intensity, duration). That makes no sense at all to me.


I think you bring up a valid point.

Everybody tries to 'imagine' what the other person is experiencing. People say how stupid ebikes are without having ridden them.

This thread will probably close soon just like the others like it. It becomes a literal argument from a non e bike rider telling somebody how easy it is to ride.

It's somewhat amusing to read how narrow minded and stupid they sound at times.
Just like Strava, non users call Strava assholes as if once a person installs an app they are suddenly an as. Just like people that get an e bike are considered, as a whole, lazy.

The ebike people do not like them, period. Some may eventually but I don't want to say that out of respect for the haters (hate to accuse the haters of maybe, someday, changing their mind). 
Ebike riders have a reason for enjoying them. Why can't they just be allowed to enjoy them.
Non ebikers don't like them, so what. I don't care if a person does or does not.

I wonder if a poll on a thread like this should be listed "How long can this thread stay open" because they won't last long.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

sirsam84 said:


> I actually (usually) "like" the uphill grind on an MTB too, especially if it is a tech singletrack climb (I'm one of those weirdos that actually gets huge endorphin rush from cardio)...for me, the main E benefit is the increased downhill reps I can get...changes the work (albeit kinda fun) to downhill ratio....


Trivia: I heard that endorphin rush wasn't endorphins at all, but endocannabinoids. Was some study back in 2015 on what the Runner's High was, and tests on mice...

I was looking up to even understand what effect to expect from the runner's high, which turned out to be reduced pain and reduced fear/anxiety. In their test, they had mice run for 4 hrs, before they tested for pain and anxiety. I don't think I ever experienced it, honestly. I've only experienced zombie mode, and can't stay awake mode, both of which I consider to be bonking.


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

ninjichor said:


> Thinking about it, I don't even look at my current bike as a source of a workout. I just see getting more fit through riding as a way to get to a stage that I can enjoy riding more, by progressing to a level where I can actually work on technical skills. Fitness is a barrier in mtb progression. I don't feel like grinding out miles and elevation as a rite of passage; in fact, I've been throwing money at this problem by scoping out upgrades. In reality, my "workouts" are half-assed anyways, as I find myself pacing my effort in order to last long enough to use up my free time allotted for riding. If I ever tried to do intervals and climb repeats, I undoubtedly expect to find myself inconvenienced/recovering for days. My bod doesn't look athletic at all, doing this riding thing exclusively for years--I had a better bod from just doing minimal amounts of military-styled calisthenics.
> 
> With an emtb, I probably could go all out any time I felt like it. Being off the bike for a while probably won't be a strong excuse any more. Even if I am huffing and puffing to recover from those short hard efforts, the motor assist is there to help. I learned long ago to not be foolish to show up and blow up on a mountain bike.
> 
> ...


My haibike has a 65 degree head angle and 180 travel front and rear.
Pretty Enduro like

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Nobody brought this up, but one advantage of an e bike is that you can have now long travel like 180 or 200 and not need to shuttle.

And please, don't say that YOU don't need long travel 

It makes every downhill more fun.

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

If I had more suspension travel, I want more power our of my motor


----------



## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

On the days I ride my Hightower instead of my SS....I get much less of a workout. 

My SS cadence stays the same even when on the geared bike. 32x42 does not give me the same workout as 34x22. 

Could I push harder in a harder gear on the HIghtower....sure. Do I? Sometimes...but usually I fall back into the habit of “I have all these gears, I’m gonna use them”. The majority of Ebikes I encounter, the riders are not working that hard, but they are still dropping me like I’m tied to a tree. 

Oh yeah, for context...my rides range from 20-60 miles.....3000-9000’ of climbing.


----------



## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

mtnbikej said:


> On the days I ride my Hightower instead of my SS....I get much less of a workout.


You have an eHightower?


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

rod9301 said:


> An e bike and a regular bike will provide the same without per hour
> 
> Assuming you go at your capacity, or you go at the same heart rate
> 
> Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


But that's just it, you likely won't be working as hard on the e-bike. I use my e-bike on recovery days specifically because it's less work. If you're fit and skilled then riding an e-bike will simply remove some of the work required to run at "trail speed". Often times the limiter to speed is the trail rather than the amount of power you can generate, assuming you're strong enough to sit around 2.5w/kg or so on the singletrack around here. My heart rate is both lower and much more stable when I ride my e-bike. It usually takes a sustained technical descent on the e-bike to get my heart rate up.



J.B. Weld said:


> It can be the same but for 9/10 people I doubt it's even close. Every person I've talked to after a test ride on one comments how much easier climbing is, thus the appeal.


Exactly. 
.
As I mentioned earlier, riding an e-bike is much closer to a steady state workout where doing the same ride on a regular MTB is more of a HIIT workout. On a regular bike you're constantly pushing way over threshold while on an e-bike you might not ever breach your threshold. The effect on your heart and muscles is much different. 
.
Of course, this brings me back to my other point, in that people of different fitness levels and skill levels will perceive the benefits of e-bikes differently. A prolonged steady state workout can be more beneficial to someone who doesn't have a solid baseline fitness than a much shorter interval session, especially if you don't have the physical strength to even climb the hill on a regular bike; at any speed. Since just about every ride I do here starts with a climb, it's easy for me to see the benefit of e-bikes to people who haven't developed the leg strength or cardio to make those climbs on a regular bike. They simply can't ride a regular bike long enough to get a truly beneficial workout. It would be like giving someone who had done no weight training a 100lb bar for bicep curls. If they can't lift the bar, they'll get no workout, whereas they might greatly benefit from starting with a 40lb bar even if experienced lifters would see no benefit from a 40lb bar.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Maybe a better question is: Do you continue to perform hard efforts on your ebike as you did with a regular bike? As I've learned, you can indeed crush yourself on an ebike if you choose to do so. Does relying on the motor cause you to ease up on an otherwise hard ride?

I'm admittedly a non-ebike guy, but am not looking to troll either. I'm willing to learn.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Forest Rider said:


> It becomes a literal argument from a non e bike rider telling somebody how easy it is to ride.


Maybe re-read this thread..... Multiple eBike riders have chimed in that their personal experience is the eBike is easier and less of a workout than a pedal bike.

The only way riding a motor assisted device becomes more of a workout than a bicycle with no motor is if the person riding with assist rides for longer or removes the assist and uses only human power to pedal a heavier bike. Riding an eBike with assist for the same amount of time as riding a pedal bike is going to provide very similar results. X-Amount of Effort exerted for a specific time duration is the equation you are looking for.

They key point is many people who have switched to eBikes *claim to ride more often*, and it is the *increase in time spent exercising each week that yields the benefits*, which leads to the fact that the benefits would be greater if they both increased the amount of time riding and still did it without a motor.

It is all about context.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Crankout said:


> Maybe a better question is: Do you continue to perform hard efforts on your ebike as you did with a regular bike? As I've learned, you can indeed crush yourself on an ebike if you choose to do so. Does relying on the motor cause you to ease up on an otherwise hard ride?
> 
> I'm admittedly a non-ebike guy, but am not looking to troll either. I'm willing to learn.


The issue is "trail speed". Sure you can easily sustain 20mph on an e-bike, but I've yet to see a stretch of singletrack where that kind of pace is achievable. For me, on a tight section of singletrack 12-15mph average speeds are where I'm at. I don't need an e-bike to do that. Having the e-bike means I'm not working nearly as hard to maintain that pace though. An e-bike is like having a fresh set of "pro" legs for every trail segment, without the pain at the end of the ride. You can still push yourself hard insofar as the effort required to muscle the bike through the trail is a total body workout. Even then though, it's not as much of a workout as a normal bike pushing the same pace.
.
Climbing is where you can still put in a serious effort while not being limited by the terrain. "Uphill flow" becomes a real thing on an e-bike. I can climb at twice the speed that I climb without it, even though the bike is only contributing about a third of the power. The smoothness of the power delivery makes it feel like more than it is, as it's a continuous delivery. That extra wattage can often make the difference in whether you can get your legs up to the required cadence to make your own power or not.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

BTW. . . to provide some context here are two comparisons. One is a singletrack descent, and the other is a technical climb. Both are my best times on e bike and regular bike. You can see a clear difference in power and HR comparing the regular bike to e-bike.
.
regular bike singletrack descent







.
.
E-bike on same descent (segment is slightly longer for e-bike but that's irrelevant) For some reason the bike only report assist power to my Garmin so ignore 99w. Comparing the climbing data will show the kind of power disparity between riding a normal bike vs an e-bike. 







.
.
Climb on Regular bike







.
.
Same climb on e-bike. No HR data here but I can tell you it stayed below 155 the whole way.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

scatterbrained said:


> .
> .
> Climb on Regular bike
> 
> ...


So you made that climb in half the time with the same amount of effort. The data is showing that for you personally an eBike can climb twice as fast on the same section of trail for the same Heart Rate, 156 for pedaling and 155 for eBike. Except for when you hit that max number of 170bpm. I guess the question is do you have actual heart rate data for the duration of both those rides that show all the peaks and valleys?


----------



## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> ...Just go out riding with other ebikers.... ...Just like going out with other riders...


exactly, you only have one level of max output regardless of what you're riding. you can't pass that if you wanted too...


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Crankout said:


> I can't imagine how an e-bike would be more, or even equal, a workout to an analog bike all other things being equal (ex. fitness, intensity, duration). That makes no sense at all to me.


That's only because you are not trying to justify the use of an ebike to get exercise.

Some folks want things to be true even when they are not, so don't try to rationalize with them, it'll only piss them off


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

scatterbrained said:


> BTW. . . to provide some context here are two comparisons. One is a singletrack descent, and the other is a technical climb. Both are my best times on e bike and regular bike. You can see a clear difference in power and HR comparing the regular bike to e-bike.


So you are not working as hard on the ebike, that makes sense cuz adding assist to a bike is supposed to make riding easier, but other than that I'm not sure how you can quantify effort unless you look at calories burned.

Like another poster wrote, you don't train for a marthon by walking ... unless it's a walking marathon 

Or we can we just say that this is a dumb discussion and leave it at that.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> So you made that climb in half the time with the same amount of effort. The data is showing that for you personally an eBike can climb twice as fast on the same section of trail for the same Heart Rate, 156 for pedaling and 155 for eBike. Except for when you hit that max number of 170bpm. I guess the question is do you have actual heart rate data for the duration of both those rides that show all the peaks and valleys?


I'm seeing vastly different efforts per data when looking at the power numbers, though I'm referring to MAX watts. By the way, 724 on a regular bike is no joke Scatterb!


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Klurejr said:


> They key point is many people who have switched to eBikes *claim to ride more often*, and it is the *increase in time spent exercising each week that yields the benefits*, which leads to the fact that the benefits would be greater if they both increased the amount of time riding and still did it without a motor.


This may be true for people who didn't ride or didn't ride as much prior to having an ebike, but for those of us who already ride on a regular basis, adding an ebike doesn't increase fitness, it could potentially decrease fitness.

Me and my wife are a good example: I typically ride two to three times during the week for 30-60 minutes, then on the weekend I take one or two long rides 4-8 hours.

My wife rode maybe once a month for 1-2 hours pre-ebike, now she rides two to three times a month and her average rides are much longer. She certainly fits the model of having an ebike increases fitness, but then she barely rode at all before having an e-bike.

I don't fit this model at all because I already ride a fair amount year round on highly technical terrain that pushes my heart rate up and definitely stresses my body. Adding an ebike would reduce the work I do, but because I don't have more time to ride, my average fitness would decrease.

Folks, seriously, this is not rocket science.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

scatterbrained said:


> The issue is "trail speed". Sure you can easily sustain 20mph on an e-bike, but I've yet to see a stretch of singletrack where that kind of pace is achievable. For me, on a tight section of singletrack 12-15mph average speeds are where I'm at. I don't need an e-bike to do that. Having the e-bike means I'm not working nearly as hard to maintain that pace though. An e-bike is like having a fresh set of "pro" legs for every trail segment, without the pain at the end of the ride. You can still push yourself hard insofar as the effort required to muscle the bike through the trail is a total body workout. Even then though, it's not as much of a workout as a normal bike pushing the same pace.
> .
> Climbing is where you can still put in a serious effort while not being limited by the terrain. "Uphill flow" becomes a real thing on an e-bike. I can climb at twice the speed that I climb without it, even though the bike is only contributing about a third of the power. The smoothness of the power delivery makes it feel like more than it is, as it's a continuous delivery. That extra wattage can often make the difference in whether you can get your legs up to the required cadence to make your own power or not.


And this is where the purist in me tends to shut down in a conversation about ebikes...
I just feel like it's cheating, but that's neither here nor there and not meant to rile up folks out here. I'm just sharing my perspective. Admittedly, I've yet to ride one.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Crankout said:


> I'm seeing vastly different efforts per data when looking at the power numbers, though I'm referring to MAX watts. By the way, 724 on a regular bike is no joke Scatterb!


So woudl it be safe to say that the first example that Scatterb made: 802w vs 99w is an example of an ebike providing the 700w balance in effort?

That might be the best way to examine the benefits of adding assist.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> So you made that climb in half the time with the same amount of effort. The data is showing that for you personally an eBike can climb twice as fast on the same section of trail for the same Heart Rate, 156 for pedaling and 155 for eBike. Except for when you hit that max number of 170bpm. I guess the question is do you have actual heart rate data for the duration of both those rides that show all the peaks and valleys?


I have a slightly slower run with HR data. The real difference is in the BPM. I average around 140 vs an average of 154.
.
Reg bike via Garmin Connect data







.
.
e-bike via Garmin Connect data







.
It's hard to make out over a 20 minute time span but the HR just stays higher on a regular bike, and obviously for much longer.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> So woudl it be safe to say that the first example that Scatterb made: 802w vs 99w is an example of an ebike providing the 700w balance in effort?
> 
> That might be the best way to examine the benefits of adding assist.


No, for whatever reason when I set the Levo to report rider power to the Garmin on the third channel it just report assist level, so the motor is assisting at 100 watts.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> This may be true for people who didn't ride or didn't ride as much prior to having an ebike, but for those of us who already ride on a regular basis, adding an ebike doesn't increase fitness, it could potentially decrease fitness.
> 
> Me and my wife are a good example: I typically ride two to three times during the week for 30-60 minutes, then on the weekend I take one or two long rides 4-8 hours.
> 
> ...


Agreed, this is inline with what I was saying.

I have been prohibited from moderating in this section, but IMO this sort of post is a /thread, conversation over.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> So you are not working as hard on the ebike, that makes sense cuz adding assist to a bike is supposed to make riding easier, but other than that I'm not sure how you can quantify effort unless you look at calories burned.
> 
> Like another poster wrote, you don't train for a marthon by walking ... unless it's a walking marathon
> 
> Or we can we just say that this is a dumb discussion and leave it at that.


 As I've stated before, I burn more calories for the same ride on a normal bike most of the time. Downhill oriented rides however (most of what is around here) it gets closer. Here are two very similar rides from the same trail network. Bear in mind that on the E-bike I ended up doing the harder climbs to the tougher trails where on the regular bike I took the fireroad, once to the tougher trails for one run. The rides aren't exactly equivocal but the closest I could find in my Strava. Notice that moving time and distance are remarkable close here. 
1,667 calories on the regular bike in 19.6 miles and 2700ft of climbing







.
.
1426 calories in 21.17 miles and 2,726 ft of climbing







.
.
Bear in mind that the regular ride was a Saturday after 3 days without any riding and the E-bike ride was a Fri after an entire week of riding.  Despite the calories and distances being pretty close, Strava rightly assesses that the "Relative Efforts" were grossly different, as can be seen in the HR data. Steady state vs. intervals.


----------



## sirsam84 (Sep 20, 2006)

Crankout said:


> Maybe a better question is: Do you continue to perform hard efforts on your ebike as you did with a regular bike? As I've learned, you can indeed crush yourself on an ebike if you choose to do so. Does relying on the motor cause you to ease up on an otherwise hard ride?
> 
> I'm admittedly a non-ebike guy, but am not looking to troll either. I'm willing to learn.


Obviously just my experience, and by definition an N of one (coupled with what neuroscience knows about our capacity for self assessment and memory/recall being pretty much garbage), but I feel like I do go harder on the Ebike to get more of that uphill flow. Maybe even starting to bleed over into the MTB, as I've been doing more stand up sprint stuff which I didn't do much before...seeking a little of that uphill flow feel there too.


----------



## umarth (Dec 5, 2007)

I loved reading this thread. It has everything that makes forums great - unsubstantiated opinions, hard data from one or two people and generalized assumptions everywhere else. I think this really covered the gamut of the initial round of questions. Great work, contributors!


----------



## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

SWriverstone said:


> 1. [Anecdotally] Do e-MTB owners, in fact, find yourselves riding significantly more (in terms of time and duration) on your e-bike than you did on your analog bike? Do you ride up instead of shuttle up? And do you find yourself riding your e-bike all over town for errands you may have formally done in your car?
> 
> 2. [Scientifically] Have any studies been done that actually quantify total and average power output and calories burned **for an equivalent time and distance** on e-bikes versus analog bikes?
> 
> ...


I took my eBike to the local ski/bike park most weekends this summer here are the dirt road access climb numbers I have from this season.

I can ride the climb on my eBike in a third of the time it takes to climb the same hill on my regular bike, and a full five minutes faster than the chairlift! If I only ride up twice as fast as the regular bike, then my heartrate will be lower and the workout likewise easier.

My heartrates are the same, the only thing that changes is the total distance I can cover in the same time. This definately equates for me into a better workout in the same time. I am riding more than twice as fast on the up hills and the same speed everywhere else with the same intensity. This statment comes from preceived exertion and also heartrate data.

So for me, it is clear that if I want to get the same workout going uphill with the same heartrate, it is possible. Then, after I'm at the top, I'm going to blast down at 150 bpm pushing the bike beyond it's 20 mph threshhold and then I'm going to ride back up the hill again. So total time is the same, same heartrate acheived and maintained, but greater distance is ridden and that will require more effort with my upper body as it includes a technical downhill and additional climbing out of the saddle.

So my assessment for going to a bike park is that most certainly I am getting a better workout riding my eBike than I get when I sit on a chairlift i.e., more laps and my heartrate doesn't drop on the lift ride. I might be an exception to how most folks ride their eBikes, but I agree 100% that some folks in some situations could claim that the workout is greater vs a regular bike and they would be correct.

Strava Segments:

eBike Segment:
https://www.strava.com/segments/18724451

Regular Biking Segment:
https://www.strava.com/segments/18231236


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

My 2cents from riding both for awhile. Ebike- way better upper body workout. Ebike riding in fat burning aerobic hr. Ebike waaay more fun. Mtb - Overall way more workout, Aerobic- anaerobic back and forth. Mtb - fun a heck. Mtb- way less coverage in same amount of time. Mtb- easier to load in back of truck! Emtb - more glued to the terrain. Both - Fun and must be accompanied by post ride cold beer. Until I get paid to ride, which will never happen, I choose to ride what puts the biggest smile on the face. Everybody rides for different reasons, this is what the both share in common, IMO.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I've ridden motocross bikes my entire life, and it's much more of a workout than any bicycle when I ride my fastest. 
For instance a 20 minute moto of motocross is totally exhausting. Doing that 4x in a 4 hour ride day is all that I can manage. 
On a bicycle however I can ride, at a high level, for several hours straight. 
I'd think in large part this would apply to e-bikes as well.
Also the increased weight and speeds of dirt bikes eventually results in many more injuries that are much more severe and I suspect the same thing will occur with e-bikes in time. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> I've ridden motocross bikes my entire life, and it's much more of a workout than any bicycle when I ride my fastest.
> For instance a 20 minute moto of motocross is totally exhausting. Doing that 4x in a 4 hour ride day is all that I can manage.
> On a bicycle however I can ride, at a high level, for several hours straight.
> I'd think in large part this would apply to e-bikes as well.
> ...


+1 on the 20min motos, no joke.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> I've ridden motocross bikes my entire life, and it's much more of a workout than any bicycle when I ride my fastest.
> For instance a 20 minute moto of motocross is totally exhausting. Doing that 4x in a 4 hour ride day is all that I can manage.
> On a bicycle however I can ride, at a high level, for several hours straight.


You're just not riding at a high enough level. Try a 20 minute ftp test and contemplate doing that for several hours straight.


----------



## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Train Wreck said:


> You have an eHightower?


Nope.....ebikes aren't legal in my local parks.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mtnbikej said:


> On the days I ride my Hightower instead of my SS....I get much less of a workout.
> 
> My SS cadence stays the same even when on the geared bike. 32x42 does not give me the same workout as 34x22.
> 
> ...


I thought about that, too. The SS forces you to work hard, you don't have a choice. Then when you ride with gears, you thinking you're pushing just as hard but you're relying on the gears and you're not forced to work as hard so you don't, even though you think you are. I imagine the same thing will happen with an ebike, it will be difficult to force yourself to work as hard.

But I can see an ebike possibly being a better upper body workout if it's a trail that you really have to muscle the front end around on, with the additional weight. I have heard that moto riders have to be some of the most athletic people to handle the bike.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

scatterbrained said:


> As I've stated before, I burn more calories for the same ride on a normal bike most of the time. Downhill oriented rides however (most of what is around here) it gets closer. Here are two very similar rides from the same trail network. Bear in mind that on the E-bike I ended up doing the harder climbs to the tougher trails where on the regular bike I took the fireroad, once to the tougher trails for one run. The rides aren't exactly equivocal but the closest I could find in my Strava. Notice that moving time and distance are remarkable close here.
> 1,667 calories on the regular bike in 19.6 miles and 2700ft of climbing
> View attachment 1287151
> 
> ...


What's interesting is your Average speeds within 2mph. Top speed within 1mph. I guess in your case speed on the trail on a Emtb is non issue.


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Gutch said:


> What's interesting is your Average speeds within 2mph. Top speed within 1mph. I guess in your case speed on the trail on a Emtb is non issue.


 I think it mostly comes down to my trying to preserve the battery. I discovered a while back that I can kill the battery in under an hour blitzing climbs so now I leave it in eco mode and take my time.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

umarth said:


> I loved reading this thread. It has everything that makes forums great - unsubstantiated opinions, hard data from one or two people and generalized assumptions everywhere else. I think this really covered the gamut of the initial round of questions. Great work, contributors!


Antagonistic tongue in cheek comments like this are what turn good threads into flame wars. When a user comes in and simply attacks peoples arguments and presents no opinion or facts of their own. Bravo on your trollish behavior.


----------



## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

chazpat said:


> I thought about that, too. The SS forces you to work hard, you don't have a choice. Then when you ride with gears, you thinking you're pushing just as hard but you're relying on the gears and you're not forced to work as hard so you don't, even though you think you are. I imagine the same thing will happen with an ebike, it will be difficult to force yourself to work as hard.
> 
> But I can see an ebike possibly being a better upper body workout if it's a trail that you really have to muscle the front end around on, with the additional weight. I have heard that moto riders have to be some of the most athletic people to handle the bike.


Riding instrumented, peak effort on a rock ramp going as slow as I could to maintain control was 400 watts from me and 500 from the eBike; without the eBike this was doable for me a few years ago but not any more. The way that I ride my eBike is to adjust the assistance level to minimize those peak efforts; the assist level button is like my front derailleur. At the point where a rider can't maintain a minimum speed due to fitness or health, 2.5 to 4.0 miles per hour for me depending on the trail, the rider has to decide whether to ride an eBike or push a conventional bike. My local trails are now eBike-legal, so I choose to ride rather than push or hike.


----------



## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

so if i get an ebike i can ride for longer and faster. what if i dont have the extra time? i'm okay with getting my workout done in an hour or two instead of 4 hours or whatever. 
maybe when i retire...?


----------



## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

be1 said:


> so if i get an ebike i can ride for longer and faster. what if i dont have the extra time? i'm okay with getting my workout done in an hour or two instead of 4 hours or whatever.
> maybe when i retire...?


You don't need extra time. You can ride the eBike just as hard as you ride your current bike, but you will travel more distance in the same time with the same effort. You must be diligent on the climbs and force the pace. The best way to be sure you are working as hard is to wear a heart rate monitor and set a low rate alarm notification. That way if your effort drops off, you can choose to push harder or reduce assist levels to maintain a constant workload.

See post 84 above for real life comparisons ebike vs rbike on the same hill. I actually rode my eBike up the hill harder on more than 1 occasion than I would ride on my regular bike.


----------



## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

good to know


----------



## seamarsh (Mar 5, 2012)

TheBikeStore said:


> You don't need extra time. You can ride the eBike just as hard as you ride your current bike, but you will travel more distance in the same time with the same effort. You must be diligent on the climbs and force the pace. The best way to be sure you are working as hard is to wear a heart rate monitor and set a low rate alarm notification. That way if your effort drops off, you can choose to push harder or reduce assist levels to maintain a constant workload.
> 
> See post 84 above for real life comparisons ebike vs rbike on the same hill. I actually rode my eBike up the hill harder on more than 1 occasion than I would ride on my regular bike.


Way too much work.. who does this? monitoring your heart rate to control which mode to use..sheesh just drop that biatch in turbo and be done with it..


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

All about comfort zones really, IMO. If you're already comfortable working out on a regular bike, an emtb that suits you well might give you "new bike stoke" that fires those numbers temporarily, until you fall back to habits that you're comfortable sustaining.

To those who find fitness a barrier, the ebike might be seen as an enabler or something that creates opportunity.

There's so many of possibilities that I know that I don't know of, hence why I found this thread to be potentially interesting. Sadly, not many people are really sharing any of those diverse stories. I blame all the people shaming...

To me, this question is like trying to convince me that a XC FS race bike is a better workout than significantly heavier FS trail bike. It's designed to be faster, but has some compromises here and there... I see the ebike as way more than weight weeniefying, so anytime I think about an upgrade in that direction, I rationalize towards motor-assist instead. Kona Remote 160 prob the first one to catch my eye, since the RM Altitude Powerplay.


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Also, the ease-ability of riding an ebike will get people out more often. Having the bike setup for different levels of assist would give them the opportunity to break a sweat on their e-rides. Its all in what people want, and what people buy. Strictly throttle for me, which is legal for me.



matt4x4 said:


> I say it can be zero workout and strictly throttle with zero pedaling, or it can be pure pedal power.
> 
> On one side there is the aspect that ebikes will get people off the couch and onto riding and its their choice as to what assist level, if any at all.


----------



## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

Ebikers that claim they workout just as hard are self deluded - I bought a commuter ebike to replace some car trips and ride it most days. Even on the lowest setting it makes hills a non-issue. Only have to ride alongside my buddy on a proper bike who is struggling to talk and ride to get a reminder of how little work I’m actually doing...


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

be1 said:


> so if i get an ebike i can ride for longer and faster. what if i dont have the extra time? i'm okay with getting my workout done in an hour or two instead of 4 hours or whatever.
> maybe when i retire...?


You will get the same workout in an hour, you'll just have twice the Downhill.

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rod9301 said:


> You will get the same workout in an hour, you'll just have twice the Downhill.


You might. The majority of people most definitely will not.


----------



## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Haggis said:


> Ebikers that claim they workout just as hard are self deluded - I bought a commuter ebike to replace some car trips and ride it most days. Even on the lowest setting it makes hills a non-issue. Only have to ride alongside my buddy on a proper bike who is struggling to talk and ride to get a reminder of how little work I'm actually doing...


I've turned off the assist entirely when riding with a novice because the lack of effort was driving me crazy. Commuting to work I put out the same effort on my FS eBike as I did on my CX bike but go faster but on the trip home less because I up the assist level.

It's my opinion that if you want a good workout there's nothing like a conventional mountain bike on varying terrain; you automatically get peak effort and recovery plus a good amount of aerobic effort. On trails local to me, that kind of workout on an eBike with significant assist would be irresponsible most of the time because too many people will be inconvenienced or endangered.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

hikerdave said:


> I've turned off the assist entirely when riding with a novice because the lack of effort was driving me crazy. Commuting to work I put out the same effort on my FS eBike as I did on my CX bike but go faster but on the trip home less because I up the assist level.
> 
> It's my opinion that if you want a good workout there's nothing like a conventional mountain bike on varying terrain; you automatically get peak effort and recovery plus a good amount of aerobic effort. On trails local to me, that kind of workout on an eBike with significant assist would be irresponsible most of the time because too many people will be inconvenienced or endangered.


 People "endangered " really? Isn't that the riders responsibility to be responsible?


----------



## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Gutch said:


> People "endangered " really? Isn't that the riders responsibility to be responsible?


You would think, but if the goal is a good workout or good time on Strava, I suspect that responsibility and courtesy get left behind. I got off the trail for a female runner this morning and she told me that I was the first mountain biker to do so. I don't know whether she meant first today or first EVER.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

People do lose their heads when riding sometimes. It’s a maturity thing really. At the end of the day, it’s just a bicycle and we’re not getting paid. Always be someone faster, stronger, and fitter. Once you can accept these realities, then we become a more mature cyclist. JMO


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm pretty fit and get down the trails pretty decent on my analog bike. Don't think I could really go much faster on an E bike except for just a few places up. So that would leave me considerably less exercised. Yes I know this is in direct contradiction to my other post.
But I just realized with the make up of my trails you just can't really go that much faster on them.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## sirsam84 (Sep 20, 2006)

Suns_PSD said:


> I'm pretty fit and get down the trails pretty decent on my analog bike. Don't think I could really go much faster on an E bike except for just a few places up. So that would leave me considerably less exercised. Yes I know this is in direct contradiction to my other post.
> But I just realized with the make up of my trails you just can't really go that much faster on them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Yeah I could definitely see that with some twisty flat trails....


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

sirsam84 said:


> Yeah I could definitely see that with some twisty flat trails....


They aren't flat at all. They're constantly up-and-down and rocky the entire time. But I fly up them. And I'm able to pedal about as fast as I can go through any of the turns.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> You're just not riding at a high enough level. Try a 20 minute ftp test and contemplate doing that for several hours straight.


This.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dirtvert (Jun 30, 2010)

It's not uncommon to see pros training on ebikes around Santa Cruz. I saw R-Dog/Ryan Howard on one day. I don't think they're doing it because it's a bad workout.

I haven't read all 100+ posts, but one theory that I've heard is that ebikes keep you in the proper heart-rate zone on climbs (aerobic), so there's that.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

dirtvert said:


> It's not uncommon to see pros training on ebikes around Santa Cruz. I saw R-Dog/Ryan Howard on one day. I don't think they're doing it because it's a bad workout.
> 
> I haven't read all 100+ posts, but one theory that I've heard is that ebikes keep you in the proper heart-rate zone on climbs (aerobic), so there's that.


Uh, I'm guessing they're doing it precisely because it's less of a workout than pedaling a bike up a hill under their own power (a set number of reps in a given period of time).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Well I'd guess they are riding ebikes because its a mode of transportation with a little bit of a workout while getting a bag of groceries. Also its better for athletes to work out at medium for long periods then work out high for short periods.

I remember when I ran out of juice, and walking up a hill to the nearest publicly available 120V outlet to juice up, there was a rider on a fat bike cruising at a good speed up the hill. I'm like dayum I need a bigger battery!



Gutch said:


> People do lose their heads when riding sometimes. It's a maturity thing really. At the end of the day, it's just a bicycle and we're not getting paid. Always be someone faster, stronger, and fitter. Once you can accept these realities, then we become a more mature cyclist. JMO





Le Duke said:


> Uh, I'm guessing they're doing it precisely because it's less of a workout than pedaling a bike up a hill under their own power (a set number of reps in a given period of time).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





dirtvert said:


> It's not uncommon to see pros training on ebikes around Santa Cruz. I saw R-Dog/Ryan Howard on one day. I don't think they're doing it because it's a bad workout.
> 
> I haven't read all 100+ posts, but one theory that I've heard is that ebikes keep you in the proper heart-rate zone on climbs (aerobic), so there's that.


----------



## RichardWad (Sep 24, 2019)

Early thirties and get a Darn good workout with my levo.

I still get sore, tired... It's just that now i access so many more miles of trails that would otherwise leave me in an utterly exhausted state on an analog bike, not to mention taking up my entire day.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


----------



## kaleidopete (Feb 7, 2015)

My comparison last year acoustic & this year electric almost same ride.
2019 electric








2018 acoustic


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

1 mile shorter for the top ride and nearly 100 more feet of elevation gain.... close to the same.. but not equal matches... plus your moving time was quite a bit different, making it seem like it took you 25 min to go 1 extra mile.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

kaleidopete said:


> My comparison last year acoustic & this year electric almost same ride.
> 2019 electric
> View attachment 1287891
> 
> ...


Dam, you forgot to turn on the assist.


----------



## kaleidopete (Feb 7, 2015)

HaHa.. I'm just saying it isn't like I'm killing it now with electric. 
It's easier, my average mph is up to 5.7 from 5 with no assist. 
But, then again, I'm another year older.


----------



## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> 1 mile shorter for the top ride and nearly 100 more feet of elevation gain.... close to the same.. but not equal matches... plus your moving time was quite a bit different, making it seem like it took you 25 min to go 1 extra mile.


I'm not going to post any of my rides but as soon as I connected the human power measure from my Yamaha-PW-SE and heart rate to a Garmin Edge 530 (borrowed from Garmin where I work) the calories burned estimates for a typical ride 7 miles to and from trailhead at a brisk pace 200 percent assist level and another 8 toodling around on the local trails at 100 percent assist except for steep sections went from around 1100 to maybe 450. Toughest ride on the eBike, which nearly depleted my battery, was 22 miles and 2300 feet elevation gain at an OHV area with lots of sandy washes. Only 855 calories burned over 3 hours moving time with max power 364 watts up a 24 percent grade; maximum 30 minute average power around 100 watts. I'm sure that same ride on a normal bike would have been triple the calories burned.

The 375 watt-hours burned is equivalent to 322 kcal, but human power efficiency is only 25 percent so more like 1200kCal worth of assistance from the eBike on that ride; four cheeseburgers worth of assistance.


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Another great purpose of electric bicycles is that you can ride more terrain then you would when you are not using electrics. Especially the hills! Quicker to get up them hills that wear you out faster, so you can ride further and longer.


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

hikerdave said:


> I'm not going to post any of my rides but as soon as I connected the human power measure from my Yamaha-PW-SE and heart rate to a Garmin Edge 530 (borrowed from Garmin where I work) the calories burned estimates for a typical ride 7 miles to and from trailhead at a brisk pace 200 percent assist level and another 8 toodling around on the local trails at 100 percent assist except for steep sections went from around 1100 to maybe 450. Toughest ride on the eBike, which nearly depleted my battery, was 22 miles and 2300 feet elevation gain at an OHV area with lots of sandy washes. Only 855 calories burned over 3 hours moving time with max power 364 watts up a 24 percent grade; maximum 30 minute average power around 100 watts. I'm sure that same ride on a normal bike would have been triple the calories burned.
> 
> The 375 watt-hours burned is equivalent to 322 kcal, but human power efficiency is only 25 percent so more like 1200kCal worth of assistance from the eBike on that ride; four cheeseburgers worth of assistance.


Ok but you're looking at calories burned for the same ride, not calories per hour.

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## some dude (Jan 1, 2014)

AC/BC said:


> It's possible that eBikes might induce a state of nirvana, that in effect you end up riding more, thus burning more calories


Bingo, if you want to ride more often or more duration than the ebike will definitely help folks get fitter. I've seen a riding buddy who owns a bike shop loose two waste sizes because he's much more inspired to go do a quick 45 min ride with 3-4 laps where he could only do one before in 45 min. So he enjoys it much more getting more DH in for that 45 min.

Also e-assist bikes are significantly heavier which requires more core muscle to maneuver it around. I am definitely faster on the Turbo LEVO on climbing segments, however I've yet to best any of my down hill of flow segments from my Yeti's.

If the e-assist inspires you to ride, then it's all a positive.

I have pedaled 5 hour non stop rides without pedal assist and 7k feet elevation without any real training and no ill effects the days after. I can go do a 2 hour hare scramble on my dirt motorcycle and not be able to walk normal for 2-3 days and barely get myself dressed the next day. The amount of effort to ride a fully motorized bike far exceeds pedaling a mountain bike for even double the duration at similar heart beats per min.


----------



## Delta_kilo (Oct 30, 2006)

kaleidopete said:


> HaHa.. I'm just saying it isn't like I'm killing it now with electric.
> It's easier, my average mph is up to 5.7 from 5 with no assist.
> But, then again, I'm another year older.


Exactly at 61 years old working construction all my life the old knees just aren't what they used to be ebiking has allowed me to see a long future in mt.biking. I still ride the manual bike with my non ebike riding partners I just use each bike as a different tool in my tool box for the job at hand.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

^ emtb eco assist (Shimano E8000 motor, 140mm travel FS, some bursts of trail/boost for climbs I didn't want to push a 50+ lb bike up)

















^ mtb (reverse ebike, adding resistance rather than assistance, with high rolling resistance tires)


















Only clear conclusion I can make: emtb allows me to shorten the road ride and makes me more willing to do more extreme climbs and descents. Steeper climbs explains the similar average climbing speed.

Speculative intuition: I feel that I put out a similar effort, but I simply just went on average 2 mph faster on the emtb, making most of that difference on road-like surfaces where it's boring anyways. These are numbers I expect by switching to a blingy $6k+ carbon XC race bike, but I undoubtedly believe this does gravity fueled descents in a much safer and more enjoyable manner.

For context, these rides were 2 weeks apart, both during night. I use an Outbound Lightning headlight on bar, and Ituo XP3 on helmet. Very familiar with these trails and roads, doing this ride regularly. Used to do it many times a week during summer, but now once a week.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I mean really, it's only a similar workout if you don't initiate the assist mode. Otherwise, you're pedaling (i.e. bicycling). But who has an ebike and doesn't use the motor?


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Are you talking about my post? 

There's signs that the motor's on. The "minimum speed" is consistently raised throughout the blue speed graph and the acceleration points seem like a steeper spike. It estimates my power is increased by over 50W, best 20 minute effort speed is at the motor's step-down/cut-off point. Look at the steep elevation drop and rises, and the average climb speed of 9 MPH; normally I'd be pedaling up those climbs at 3-5 MPH, and would opt for routes that had tamer climbs at I could hammer up at 8 MPH.

It also shows that it reduces my time spent near my max speeds, as if I were discouraged to go over the motor's cut-off point.

Perhaps you're just refusing to see since it doesn't match your expected results? I'm not used to boost, since it's hard to control, but you can see the super tall spikes caused by it (blue speed graph) in the middle of the ride. No point in speeding up only to react by clamping on the brakes, as the bike would get away from me otherwise. It's so different from normal riding and there's turns I had to make. Eco's the only mode that would last close to 50 miles.

If you were witty, you'd try to argue that I was slacking hardcore on the emtb ride for it to be so similar, expecting the ebike to be providing a lot of the power, and concluding it was less of a workout. The calorie and kJ #s are misleading estimates. A 504 Wh battery has how many kJ in it? 1 joule is the energy of 1A at 1V for 1 second, or 1 watt times second, and the motor's efficiency is 80%. The battery did cut-off on me towards the end of the ride, and it was demoralizing to try and pedal that thing, even on pavement. If you look at the tail-end of the blue speed graph, you can see me noticing the drastic decrease in speed and trying to accelerate (not so spiky) and hold the pace I was used to, but struggling. 

Your statement sounds contradictory. Ya, who would ride an emtb with motor off? You implying that you got some high opinion of me for being able to pull it off? A 52+ lb bike, voluntarily taken to steep climbs to be pedaled with full human-power? Only to waste it all on steep descents that I'm not used to at night, dragging the brakes all the way down?

Honestly, it felt like I was able to get into a nice comfort zone, despite the challenges the trail threw at me, and that was part of the fun. Training (suffering) takes the fun out of the ride. I was able to ride at a speed that best suited the terrain--I was faster on road, and went a speed that needed the least braking on the trail. Simply being out on the bike for 3-5 hours was a healthy workout--not trying to impress anyone with massive quads nor get all snobby with KOMs and strength-to-weight ratios. Was simply appreciating the improved opportunity to explore parts of nature that are less traveled. Look at all the stops I made to appreciate nature on the emtb (I count 10+). I once wanted a light carbon short travel XCish bike for this, but the ebike seems like a more rational choice for someone not looking to train to race, nor treat the trails as a virtual race course. Gotta admit there's a ton of room for improvements though...


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

When you run out of juice in the battery, thats when you pedal with no power.



Crankout said:


> I mean really, it's only a similar workout if you don't initiate the assist mode. Otherwise, you're pedaling (i.e. bicycling). But who has an ebike and doesn't use the motor?


----------



## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

It can be the same if you push as hard on the pedals, but I find that it is easy to lack motivation to push as hard when the bike moves along so well with less effort. That said, I have been KOM racing and I am sure I am getting a good workout.


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

That is why some will build a weaker ebike to force them to pedal, but that is probably 5% of people who do that. Another 15% would be people who have lost their license and just buy whatever is available to them. Another 10% would be people who have moved from an empty nest and who are downsizing into a condo.



rsilvers said:


> It can be the same if you push as hard on the pedals, but I find that it is easy to lack motivation to push as hard when the bike moves along so well with less effort. That said, I have been KOM racing and I am sure I am getting a good workout.


----------



## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

I recently posted about how I tested 10% assist compared to a normal bike. My Turbo Levo on 10% with 49% peak power is just a tad easier (like 1 mph) than my trail bike. It probably would match my trail bike if the trail bike had low rolling resistance cross-country tires.

Here are my findings:https://www.matter-replicator.com/2019/10/28/can-an-emtb-be-as-much-rider-effort-as-a-mtb/


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

@rsilvers Interesting that you can set power levels like that. I guess that sort of answers my question about how much energy it takes to counter the ebike's extra heft, extra drag from the motor, and other inefficiencies. Shimano seems to have its max clamped to about 50% too, in its lowest/ECO setting, but has no qualms about sustaining 50% use for long duration. It assists less when I soft pedal. 

I basically am wondering why the battery seems to be draining more than expected. If I wanted to prove that Shimano averages ~50W of extra power added added to my own in ECO mode, in terms of performance difference, how much range should I really be getting out of it? For 504 Wh of battery capacity to drain in 4-5 hours, I have to expect 125 W of draw on average. Consider the motor has 80% efficiency, there's a bit of drag and aerodynamic losses riding at a faster pace, and the addition load from the motor drag and sensors... where's all this going for it to only show up as 50 W extra? Am I really slacking that much when I'm getting assisted?


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

ninjichor said:


> @rsilvers Interesting that you can set power levels like that.


That's what I really liked about the Spez Levo. You can dial all three power levels to that degree - percentage of assist and peak power. That and the 700wh battery.

The bike itself feels good too- geometry, suspension kinematics, motor.


----------



## ow595 (Jul 22, 2005)

From my personal experience and getting a an E-MTB bike about two months ago I would say I’m getting a better level of fitness. Much used for training for a three day ride in Downieville. All things being equal a pedal bike will require more effort but the riding is not equal.
The differences I’m finding I’m riding my Levo multiple times a week where is I would ride my Megatower bike about once a week. I’m also riding further at a faster pace and pushing the limit on down hills and flats and now as well as the uphill. 
It’s just brought all the joy of riding back, all the time. It now don’t hesitate to ride to and tackle the furthest favorite trail. 

I also come from the world of riding dirt bikes. Like Bicyclists who have never riden dirbikes assume you just twisting a throttle and it’s not a work out. Where on the contrary on your riding hard and at Pace is one of the most challenging workouts on two wheels. I feel the same with the E mountain bike, I’m pushing the pace on average for more of my rides and over a longer miles. The one side note I have also recognize as I’m spinning a higher cadence the entire ride, Where is on my pedal bike I would typically grind slower up hills and consequently suffer more knee and back pain after a ride. In the last two months I’ve ridden more that I have the prior runs the rest of this year. Assuming you have proper trails with elevation, no one who has ridden downhill could suggest it’s not a work out.
I’m all in and not going back anytime soon. 
One final benefit. Think I’m in a better fat burning zone as I just dropped in the lowest weight 33 years. From a fit 185lbs since college, just hit 171lbs, and averaging 175lbs. I’m pretty happy.

William
Santa Cruz, Ca


----------



## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

10% assist at 50% power levels
seems like a workout!


----------



## 2wls4ever (May 11, 2006)

Great discussion. I have ridden and raced MTB's for over 20 years. This past year I raced three different E-MTB events. An adventure style race, EWS E-MTB Enduro experiment, and the Sea Otter E-MTB race. I hit my highest HR in several years in the Sea Otter E-MTB race. 

The E-MTB provides a more fitness type options than a normal MTB. I can do long Spin recovery workouts, hard wattage workouts, or a more crossfit type workout going up technical climbs. 

In the end I have found that your nature fitness level takes over on any bike and you stay within your own limits.


----------



## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

*Ebikes do provide a workout.*

I think there may be some validity to this. Ebikes may provide a better workout because they would get you out on the trail on days you would otherwise skip riding. Im one of the exceptions who starting riding on an ebike and transitioned to analog bikes. The ebike slowly built up my stamina on the repeated downhills runs. If I had started on a mortal bike I probably would not have stuck with it. The level of difficulty to start mountain biking for the average 35YO human is very high.

I remember thinking....OMG....this hill is impossible for regular riders. Now I can probably do it 10 times in a row.

Just my opinion.


----------



## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Phantastic79 said:


> I think there may be some validity to this. Ebikes may provide a better workout because they would get you out on the trail on days you would otherwise skip riding. Im one of the exceptions who starting riding on an ebike and transitioned to analog bikes. The ebike slowly built up my stamina on the repeated downhills runs. If I had started on a mortal bike I probably would not have stuck with it. The level of difficulty to start mountain biking for the average 35YO human is very high.
> 
> I remember thinking....OMG....this hill is impossible for regular riders. Now I can probably do it 10 times in a row.
> 
> ...


I totally disagree. Anyone in their 30's who is not a paraplegic has enough POTENTIAL will power and back bone to start out on a real bike. All the excuses of "but more time is spent on the bike", whine snivel, whine, I call pure bulllshit on. Time for those softies among us to either HTFU or join the USMC. 
they'll make you strong, and teach you how to shoot a rifle, to boot.

You see, with a REAL bike, it works like this. Start out on beginner trails, learn some skills AND build muscles and cardio, then you ride a bit further/higher/ more tech. Rinse and repeat 4-5 days per week., you see? THAT'S how you get to be stronger, in better cardio shape, at your own pace. Starting out with a motor is completely poosified. Give it up. Save the bike for a novelty ride, which 
I'm sure would be PLENTY fun.
JMHO.
-Ray


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Phantastic79 said:


> I think there may be some validity to this. Ebikes may provide a better workout because they would get you out on the trail on days you would otherwise skip riding. Im one of the exceptions who starting riding on an ebike and transitioned to analog bikes. The ebike slowly built up my stamina on the repeated downhills runs. If I had started on a mortal bike I probably would not have stuck with it. The level of difficulty to start mountain biking for the average 35YO human is very high.
> 
> I remember thinking....OMG....this hill is impossible for regular riders. Now I can probably do it 10 times in a row.
> 
> Just my opinion.


It improves your motivation to ride more often is what you're saying.

However, once a rider uses any type of assist, the workout becomes easier compared to the same particular ride on a bike.


----------



## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

Crankout said:


> However, once a rider uses any type of assist, the workout becomes easier compared to the same particular ride on a bike.


This is only true, if the rider chooses not to push it as hard. Then the workout will become easier.

It is 100% possible to elevate your heart rate to the same level on an eBike as a standard bike. See post 84 above. My personal data posted supports this claim. My examples are on the same climb.

If you go out and ride easy on your eBike, the workout will be easy. Likewise if you go out and soft pedal your standard bike, it will also be an easy workout. Hammer the eBike and it is hard, hammer the standard bike and it will be no more difficult. Hammering is hammering! If you ride your eBike just as hard for the same amount of time, the workouts will be at least equal and I could argue the eBike workout will be harder due to the increased distance you travel in the same workout time.

It is the rider that determines the intensity of the ride, not the bike they are riding on.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

If you give equal effort, for equal time, it will be an equal workout. That depends on the rider.

I can't imagine an eBike would improve my fitness, but I'm an outlier. But I am riding 300+ miles a week, for 20+ hours. Hard to add more effort in with a battery.


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Sidewalk said:


> If you give equal effort, for equal time, it will be an equal workout. That depends on the rider.
> 
> I can't imagine an eBike would improve my fitness, but I'm an outlier. But I am riding 300+ miles a week, for 20+ hours. Hard to add more effort in with a battery.


You will get twice the Downhill, do you will get more of a workout.

You'll be more sore than you can imagine, because of the downhill.

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

This is all just bologna. Do you just ride and hope for a good workout? Every time I ride my bike I have a plan for how intense the ride will be and its duration. I don't see why it would make any difference what bike I'm on. Intense workout=less eAssist, less intense=more eAssist.


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

rod9301 said:


> You will get twice the Downhill, do you will get more of a workout.
> 
> You'll be more sore than you can imagine, because of the downhill.
> 
> Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


You don't know me, so you don't understand why that response is silly.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> I think there may be some validity to this. Ebikes may provide a better workout because they would get you out on the trail on days you would otherwise skip riding.


OR, if you don't need a motor to motivate you, you will not skip riding and get a better overall workout. The only way you get more exercise on an eBike is by riding it more than you would a non-motor assisted bike. If a motor is the only thing that will motivate you to ride more, that is a different topic. I have a 1 year old and a 3 year old and my time is limited. I rode more than once a week before the kids came along and plan to do so again once they are older, having a motor assisted bike would not give me more time to ride each week, I am still limited to a 2 hour window 1 day a week, that is 2 hours of exercise, if I was using less muscle power for those 2 hours my overall fitness is not going to increase, it will decrease.

This topic is not very genuine since it is a general statement, and that general statement does not apply to every single rider out there.

If the motor gets you on the bike more, good for you. But if you have stronger will-power and ride more without a motor, then even better for you.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Is that really a Huffy bike (Marino)? Damn, I didn’t think Huffy still made bikes.

Three weeks and you all are still comparing wieners...


----------



## RichardWad (Sep 24, 2019)

Radium said:


> I totally disagree. Anyone in their 30's who is not a paraplegic has enough POTENTIAL will power and back bone to start out on a real bike. All the excuses of "but more time is spent on the bike", whine snivel, whine, I call pure bulllshit on. Time for those softies among us to either HTFU or join the USMC.
> they'll make you strong, and teach you how to shoot a rifle, to boot.
> 
> You see, with a REAL bike, it works like this. Start out on beginner trails, learn some skills AND build muscles and cardio, then you ride a bit further/higher/ more tech. Rinse and repeat 4-5 days per week., you see? THAT'S how you get to be stronger, in better cardio shape, at your own pace. Starting out with a motor is completely poosified. Give it up. Save the bike for a novelty ride, which
> ...


As a person who started w normal mtb (like most i suppose) and who now has an emtb, i attest to the validity of phantastic76's findings. His statements absolutely ring true.

W normal mtb, i was getting out maybe 2x month.
I now have been fortunate enough to go the past 6 weekends consecutively, and it is directly because of the emtb. It gets me out more.

Im early 30s. I still occasionally take the enduro sled out because i want to suffer uphill more, or sometimes because i want to play more and pop around because it weighs 20lbs less than the levo and can launch way easier. I get a great workout from both bikes.

The idea that the ebike gets one outdoors more, and facilitates more riding...is absolutely true. It is fact.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

So it's variably less pedal workout, depending on assist level, and potentially more full body workout (e.g. more DH and absorbing higher impact forces from mass and speed), especially if pedaling endurance, and maybe willpower was holding the rider back? This is as long as you put out similar intensity over a similar amount of time, rather than gauging workout by miles, laps, elevation, etc.?

There's a few ifs:
- if you go out on more rides, essentially spending more time on a bike, such as replacing car trips with ebike trips, then ebikes make you more fit.
- if you maintain the same exact riding habits, and add in pedal assist without changing anything else, then ebikes can be less of a workout.

I'll give the skeptics a benefit of a doubt that the latter case is possible, since humans are creatures of habit. Then again, developing new habits is also powerful in the former case. I'll just say that the individual themselves should decide which case their personality will more likely make true, if they're considering an emtb.

I think a factor people are failing to realize that the ebike can be ridden like a regular bicycle, without the assist. It's not necessary to tap into the energy stored into the battery, if you want to use your more of the energy stored in your own, in order to move the bike. There's a handy remote to control it, like a dropper post remote or shifter. With the shimano steps emtb, in my experience, I can keep up with mtb regulars for virtually the entire ride without assist. One exception, I just happened to use the battery in cases where I didn't want to have to push the bike up, due to lack of confidence--more like I didn't make an earnest effort in trying. Need to remind myself that I can go-all out, since I have the battery to help me, in case my body feels weak for the next 20 minutes of the ride, due to that burst of intensity, which would be another exception, but I think that would help give me a better workout than if I had just maintained a cruising pace to ensure I had energy to last the entire ride.

@Harold No, it's not a real Huffy. Just my disguised custom steel prototype, 160 FS, sliding dropout (~440-450mm CS), ~1275mm WB, 61d HA, ~82d STA, 152mm cranks... a big experiment to test all the theories I could think up. Yes, it rides quite awkward under anyone used to conventional bikes, but it somehow carries itself so well that, not only is it not a struggle to ride and keep up with regulars, but I find it so easy to ride that it's become a problem to gauge its limits, due to my own physical fitness and skill level and the limits imposed by the trail and physics (e.g. traction). Can easily get myself into trouble on it if I am a bit too excited to use up my energy. I don't have the same problem on an emtb, cause their geo makes them more like cruiser bikes, intended for staying in the saddle 95% of the time. More often, it's my skill and fitness level extending the capability of the emtb, since trying to ride it as fast as my Huffy is quite challenging. Quite sad that it has me tensed up for even braking bumps, and finds its limits on loose fist-sized rocks. Not much different from common XC/trail bike capability, but I'm spoiled by knowing there's way better.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

If you want exercise, buy a rower. I’ve never rode for a workout on mtb or road bikes, always for pure fun. The workout is a bonus. I certainly didn’t purchase an emtb for a better workout.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

TheBikeStore said:


> This is only true, if the rider chooses not to push it as hard. Then the workout will become easier.
> 
> It is 100% possible to elevate your heart rate to the same level on an eBike as a standard bike. See post 84 above. My personal data posted supports this claim. My examples are on the same climb.
> 
> ...


I'm seeing Scatterbrains #87 post, and it clearly indicates a significant difference under relatively similar conditions if I'm reading it correctly.

It makes intuitive sense to me. A motor makes it easier.

But, as you're saying, you can still make it a great workout on an ebike if you have at it.


----------



## Carrera911xc (Jul 25, 2006)

When it's 100F+ out here during the summer, the biggest benefit I find ebikes provide is the active cooling you get by simply climbing at a faster speed. E-bikes provide for a throttled workout, during which optimal heart rate and body temperature can be regulated with a lot more control. 

Does that lead to "more or less workout"? I don't know because the idea is flawed in itself, and googling calories burned from a heart attack didn't provide any further insight.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 7, 2007)

I have been riding mountain bike for 15 years for fun and exercise. I am turning 69. My regular weekend ride on local trails used to consist of about 13 miles. This 13-mile course exposes you to a variety of conditions - flowy up-and-downs, rocky, rooty sections, and grinding techy climbs and downhills. For the last two years I shortened the ride to about 7 miles as the full course became too exhaustive and I still hold a full time job that is often physically demanding.

Three weeks ago I bought an eMTB - Specialized Turbo Levo Comp. I had been riding my XC bike for six years, and now wanted to update my riding with a new trail bike with more modern geometry. I ordered an Ibis Ripley in July. This was going to be probably my last regular mountain bike purchase before switching to an e-bike in 2 to 3 years. The delivery of the new bike has been pushed back a few times and realistically it didn't seem possible for me to have it in the conceivable future. The pain I've been having on and off in one knee was increasing and I was realizing that life was too short.

Some two weeks ago I bought an eMTB - a Specialized Turbo Levo Comp. What an experience! I had never been on one before. Now I am able to ride my full course again with lass pain and more enjoyment. I try to ride with the least amount of assist as much as possible. I find that I am able to ride 85 - 90% of the course in an eco mode and the rest in Trail mode and still able to have a good workout as the new bike is more than twice as heavy as my regular bike (51 vs 23 lb). I have never gone in the Turbo mode on a trail.

In my experience and opinion from riding the exact same course and variables on two different types of bikes, if only the workout aspect is the sole metric, riding ebike definitely produces less workout and stress even if you ride most of the course in the least-assisted mode. Of course you can ride longer to produce more workout.To me what is important is ebike makes mountain biking enjoyable again for me as I knew it to be.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

It's all about size, mine is bigger, so I win.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Another, it depends:

*- Rehabing an injury?* e-bike >>> analog for workout since I wouldn't be riding at all without the "e".

*- Recovery ride?* e-bike >> analog as once again, good chance I wouldn't be riding at all or if I was, VERY easy analog.

*- Endurance ride?* e-bike < analog. There are times I've gone "longer" cause I knew I had "e" backup, but honestly these are few and far between.

*- Intensity ride?* e-bike ~ analog. I find that my intensity of HR and effort are about the same between the two rides. The difference is I'll cover more ground at higher speeds on "e". My vital stats are nearly identical.

*- Muscle utilization?* e-bike << analog. This is a no brainer for pretty much everyone riding "e". Let's just be honest about this element.

IMO every rider would benefit from an e-bike. It would also help kill the irrational fear element they conjure in some. It would also help temper some of the "sunshine up the butt" some e-riders want to sell.

e-bikes are a tool in the box. There are times it is the right tool, and there are times it is not and there are times that e-bike or analog is simply a toss of coin or the preference.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

roughster said:


> IMO every rider would benefit from an e-bike.


Maybe not every rider. I have limited time for cycling as it is, no time for an e-bike.


----------



## Tristan Wolf (Oct 21, 2019)

Well, no one can stop you from finding ways to ride harder, and/or longer. Pretty much sky is the limit here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

am I winning?

Winning!


----------



## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

You be the judge


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

roughster said:


> IMO every rider would benefit from an e-bike. It would also help kill the irrational fear element they conjure in some. It would also help temper some of the "sunshine up the butt" some e-riders want to sell.
> .


I have no interest at all in using an ebike. My joy comes from using my own power to attain the results for which I strive.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Crankout said:


> I have no interest at all in using an ebike. My joy comes from using my own power to attain the results for which I strive.


I think you missed the point of my statement. The "benefit" would be actual knowledge and not hearsay or usually at best a one-time demo perspective.

Think about it like this:

There is an "analog" hammer. (Someone who has never tried an e-bike perspective)
There is a pneumatic hammer. (Someone who demo'd one for 15 minutes)
There is an electronic hammer. (Someone who owns one)

*Scenario #1:* You have an entire house to construct. You love "analog" hammers, awesome! Yes you can use it appropriately and construct, err..., construction  You finish a house after many many hours, and then realize that you missed a nail here and there. You go back in and hammer the missing ones back in. Go grab a beer!

*Scenario #2:* You have an entire house to construct. You have access to both analog and pneumatic hammers. An entire house is a lot of nails. You hook up your pneumatic hammer and do the "bulk" nailing, then grab the finishing analog for areas where a pneumatic hammer isn't easy or feasible. You finish the house after many hours of using both style of hammers. Go grab a beer!

*Scenario #3: * You have an entire house to construct. You have access to analog, pneumatic, and electronic hammers. You use the pneumatic in bulk. You use the electronic hammer where the pneumatic is too bulky, and you use the analog in tight spaces / one-offs for the simplicity. You finish the house the fastest. Go grab a beer, but wait, you see your neighbor is still building his house because all he has is a analog hammer. You decide to go help.

Did the house get built in all three scenarios? Yes. Is being the fastest always the true measure of success or imply a better outcome? It depends on your perspective, need, and/or time versus quality value statement I guess. Does having the right tool for the job usually result in better outcomes? Yes. Does it usually result in a more efficient job? Yes.

Does the guy in Scenario #1 know all there is to know about the guys' tools in Scenario #2 and #3 just because he can build a house with only using an analog hammer? What if he talks **** about them? Is it fear and/or jealousy driving him? Can #1 truly have a knowledgeable perspective of #2 and #3 if he has never used or held a pneumatic and/or electronic hammer?

Would #1 pass up a free pneumatic hammer? Would he pass up a free electronic hammer? If he had them, would he use them? Wouldn't he be hypocritical if he did? Or is he allowed to change his mind?

Just some food for thought...


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Crankout said:


> I have no interest at all in using an ebike. My joy comes from using my own power to attain the results for which I strive.





roughster said:


> I think you missed the point of my statement. The "benefit" would be actual knowledge and not hearsay or usually at best a one-time demo perspective.
> 
> Think about it like this:
> 
> ...


^same world, different universe

I agree with Crankout 100% but that doesn't mean anyone is wrong or right. I've ridden electric bikes and I understand their appeal, for lots of people they're just the ticket for a more enjoyable ride. For me though 100% pedal power is the heart of why cycling is so appealing and any amount of motorized assist just diminishes that experience. A ride is not something to complete efficiently in a given amount of time, it's something to experience and enjoy and the amount of miles achieved is only a result of the allotted time and energy I have on hand, not the goal. I'm not framing a house or nailing down sheathing.

Again, just my view on the matter.


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Is it possible that xc guys do not like the idea of an e bike, while Enduro oriented guys like it?

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rod9301 said:


> Is it possible that xc guys do not like the idea of an e bike, while Enduro oriented guys like it?
> 
> Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


Given that Enduro is moving more and more towards chair lifts, sure, that makes sense.


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Given that Enduro is moving more and more towards chair lifts, sure, that makes sense.


That's not what i meant. Enduro emphasizes the downhill over the uphill.

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

rod9301 said:


> That's not what i meant. Enduro emphasizes the downhill over the uphill.
> 
> Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


That's a bit of an understatement.

Let's use EWS Northstar as an example. They pedaled up for ONE of the six stages. One.

491m of the 2311 total meters of climbing were actually done under the power of a human being's legs. Just over 21%.

Why not just kill the only human powered stage and call it the Bike Park World Championship?


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

J.B. Weld said:


> A ride is not something to complete efficiently in a given amount of time, it's something to experience and enjoy and the amount of miles achieved is only a result of the allotted time and energy I have on hand, not the goal. I'm not framing a house or nailing down sheathing.


That's a super weird argument IMO if you are using to say e-bikes are somehow bad or inferior.

So anyone who trains isn't riding "right" according to you? Ever have limited time to ride? Have you ever been injured? Sorry, but if you can't understand how having multiple tools is beneficial, not sure what to say.

I will once again say "It depends". Sometimes you are looking to pound out a ride as efficiently as possible. Sometimes you are looking to sit upright with a flower in year. Two different styles of rides with two potentially different tools to be used. Same with injury. Same with training rides. Same with many different scenarios that all play into what "type" of ride makes sense.

Maybe "you" don't ride like that, but somehow it is bad if others do?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

roughster said:


> That's a super weird argument IMO if you are using to say e-bikes are somehow bad or inferior.
> 
> So anyone who trains isn't riding "right" according to you? Ever have limited time to ride? Have you ever been injured? Sorry, but if you can't understand how having multiple tools is beneficial, not sure what to say.


Did you notice the first sentence in my post?



J.B. Weld said:


> I agree with Crankout 100% but that doesn't mean anyone is wrong or right. I've ridden electric bikes and I understand their appeal, for lots of people they're just the ticket for a more enjoyable ride.


I never implied that people who like electric bikes are doing it wrong, just about the opposite in fact, I was only disagreeing with your assertation that e-bikes are a useful and enjoyable tool for everyone. Yes I've been injured and yes I *always* have limited time to ride. For me an ebike is of no use for these issues, and more importantly I have no interest in them. An hour on a bike is 60 minutes no matter how fast of how far I go.

I'm not telling you or anyone else that they would be better off if they only rode bicycles, nor am I saying anything negative about someone who only likes electric bikes. If you like both that's great, more power to you!


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> Did you notice the first sentence in my post?
> 
> I never implied that people who like electric bikes are doing it wrong, just about the opposite in fact, I was only disagreeing with your assertation that e-bikes are a useful and enjoyable tool for everyone. Yes I've been injured and yes I *always* have limited time to ride. For me an ebike is of no use for these issues, and more importantly I have no interest in them. An hour on a bike is 60 minutes no matter how fast of how far I go.
> 
> I'm not telling you or anyone else that they would be better off if they only rode bicycles, nor am I saying anything negative about someone who only likes electric bikes. If you like both that's great, more power to you!


Yeah an hour is an hour, but you get twice the Downhill.

Wait, i forgot you're the guy who rides for the uphill.

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rod9301 said:


> Wait, i forgot you're the guy who rides for the uphill.


^more words that I never said


----------



## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

Getting a better work out on an E-bike is just a sales pitch. Some recent sales data shows E-bikes bringing in more money than mountain bikes. Of course someone trying to sell E-bikes is going to counter all the negatives. If I wanted to sell someone a shake weight I could say you'll get a better work out compared to free weights because you can do it for WAY longer with more frequency. I mean, a guy really could use a shake weight until they can't hold it any longer, and a guy can ride an E-bike until they can't spin their legs, but it should be pretty clear that shake weights are for people that want to work out but not really; E-bikes are for people that want to ride mountain bikes but not really. 

I know I'll take heat for that comment. I'm sure there are plenty of E-bike riders that also ride mountain bikes very well and are super fit, but the majority of people buying E-bikes want an alternative to the hard work mountain bikes require. Some guilt comes with that I'm sure so it's a logical sales pitch to counter that with "you'll still get a monster work out"


----------



## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> That's a bit of an understatement.
> 
> Let's use EWS Northstar as an example. They pedaled up for ONE of the six stages. One.
> 
> ...


I had my own little personal protest about this at the Fox US Open at Snow Summit. There was ONE climb. 600' over 2 miles on mostly fireroad. All the rest were lift access.

I have a season pass at the park, but I pedaled the whole damn event out of protest, just to prove that there was no need to lift access the race like people were claiming. I never missed a stage (I had time to spare). My version of the race was 30 miles and 4000' (not a big day!), someone else's version was 15 miles and 1000'.

That's not what I think of when I think "enduro".


----------



## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

slimat99 said:


> Getting a better work out on an E-bike is just a sales pitch. Some recent sales data shows E-bikes bringing in more money than mountain bikes. Of course someone trying to sell E-bikes is going to counter all the negatives. If I wanted to sell someone a shake weight I could say you'll get a better work out compared to free weights because you can do it for WAY longer with more frequency. I mean, a guy really could use a shake weight until they can't hold it any longer, and a guy can ride an E-bike until they can't spin their legs, but it should be pretty clear that shake weights are for people that want to work out but not really; E-bikes are for people that want to ride mountain bikes but not really.
> 
> I know I'll take heat for that comment. I'm sure there are plenty of E-bike riders that also ride mountain bikes very well and are super fit, but the majority of people buying E-bikes want an alternative to the hard work mountain bikes require. Some guilt comes with that I'm sure so it's a logical sales pitch to counter that with "you'll still get a monster work out"


I saw a guy almost hork up a lung after a tough pitch that I had just climbed with relative ease on my eBike; I'd sat down on a rock just to enjoy the environment. His discomfort was so concerning to me that I actually waited unobtrusively until he had recovered and was on his way. Don't be that guy; get and ride an eBike if you want or need one.

Your suggestion that a prospective eBiker feels guilt is a moral judgment which seems a bit hypocritical coming from the operator of a machine that at its heart is a labor-saving device. One of my favorite bike shops, World Cycle in Boise, used to print a T-Shirt with their logo and the slogan "Faster than Walking".


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Less workout, more fun. Are we done?


----------



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

hikerdave said:


> I saw a guy almost hork up a lung after a tough pitch that I had just climbed with relative ease on my eBike; I'd sat down on a rock just to enjoy the environment. His discomfort was so concerning to me that I actually waited unobtrusively until he had recovered and was on his way. Don't be that guy; get and ride an eBike if you want or need one.


Nothing wrong with the path you've chosen. Except if you assume that it's for everyone.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mikesee said:


> Nothing wrong with the path you've chosen. Except if you assume that it's for everyone.


Exactly, I might be "that guy" at the top of a tough climb who's horking a lung but that's the path I've chosen. I wouldn't try to convince a relaxing e-biker that they should amend their ways, ditch the battery and htfu because how they enjoy riding is none of my business.


----------



## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

SWriverstone said:


> NOTE: This thread is NOT a troll. It's a sincere attempt to have an intelligent conversation!
> ---
> So it seems that for many "analog" bikers, a central point of resistance to e-bikes is that they're "lazy." That is, that they don't require as much work (because of the motor's assistance.)
> 
> ...


So, a couple points here:

- The short answer is "yes" : it's both easier and harder

- I've raced my eMTB in a GNCC race and my heart rate was pegged every bit as much as an XC race. I just went a lot faster

- All eMTBs have adjustable boost, so you can dial in your pain or pleasure level. Some days when I need a break or when I'm getting in an extra day, I'll use a bit more boost

- On days when I'm using my eMTB to session some of the more enduro-style gnar, I'll end up riding about twice as much terrain, and my upper body is commensurately more trashed, particularly wrangling a 50 lb bike around. I'd call the workout somewhere between a regular MTB ride and a dirt bike ride

Summary is that with modern eMTBs you can make it as hard or as easy as you want it to be. It's just a different tool in the quiver and a flowier riding experience.

Cheers.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Here is a link to a study performed on the two by Public Health Board at BY. 
https://apple.news/ALzEQfeltTYmS6qgNVbYBbw


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Gutch said:


> Here is a link to a study performed on the two by Public Health Board at BY.
> https://apple.news/ALzEQfeltTYmS6qgNVbYBbw


That article pretty much sums up the points that have been made in this thread. "e-bike offer a real health benefit to overweight, sedentary individuals". Average HR on an E-bike ride will be very close to the average HR of a normal bike ride (the article conflates that with intensity, which is incorrect), people prefer to commute on e-bikes vs regular bikes.


----------



## motox155 (Jan 27, 2006)

I have one of each, ebike and regular bike. I love riding each. The short answer, no you don't get as worked on the ebike. But, especially when you're not at the top of your game fitness wise, or at least in my case, I get a more consistent workout throughout the week because I tend to ride my ebike a lot more. When your fitness is lacking it's sometimes tough to get motivated to go suffer. The ebike definitely helps out there, makes it much more fun and you definitely build your fitness. Regular mtn bike are way more enjoyable when you are reasonably fit. Getting there can be torture. As you get older it's tougher for some to find the time required to get and maintain that fitness.

Most of the guys I grew up riding with (all of us in our 50's) wouldn't ride anymore if it wasn't for ebikes. I was one of the few that stuck with it throughout the years so I still enjoy my regular mtn bike...but I do love my ebike as well.


----------



## KtownRider (Nov 14, 2019)

motox155 said:


> I have one of each, ebike and regular bike. I love riding each. The short answer, no you don't get as worked on the ebike. But, especially when you're not at the top of your game fitness wise, or at least in my case, I get a more consistent workout throughout the week because I tend to ride my ebike a lot more. When your fitness is lacking it's sometimes tough to get motivated to go suffer. The ebike definitely helps out there, makes it much more fun and you definitely build your fitness. Regular mtn bike are way more enjoyable when you are reasonably fit. Getting there can be torture. As you get older it's tougher for some to find the time required to get and maintain that fitness.
> 
> Most of the guys I grew up riding with (all of us in our 50's) wouldn't ride anymore if it wasn't for ebikes. I was one of the few that stuck with it throughout the years so I still enjoy my regular mtn bike...but I do love my ebike as well.


Exactly!! I'm not interested in the suffering involved to pedal a analog bike up a mountain, & I would rather have some energy left to safely enjoy the decent.

The people in top condition that feel we should have to put the same effort they did to get to the top & feel that ebikes are an invasion that by-passes the "entry fee" will just have to get over it! Best invention in a long time!

I'm meeting my fitness goals & having fun, that's all that matters


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

KtownRider said:


> Exactly!! I'm not interested in the suffering involved to pedal a analog bike up a mountain, & I would rather have some energy left to safely enjoy the decent.
> 
> The people in top condition that feel we should have to put the same effort they did to get to the top & feel that ebikes are an invasion that by-passes the "entry fee" will just have to get over it! Best invention in a long time!
> 
> I'm meeting my fitness goals & having fun, that's all that matters


Why not just buy a moto then?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KtownRider (Nov 14, 2019)

Le Duke said:


> Why not just buy a moto then?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


By "moto" you mean motorcycle??
I have a "moto" & love it  But it doesn't give me much exercise, I don't have to pedal to make it go 

I can't take it on trails, they charge me a crazy amount of $ for insurance, I wouldn't dare drive it in the winter... I could go on but it's not a fair comparison so what's the point? My wife bought an EMTB too, she thinks its fantastic, she would never ride a motorcycle.

I don't promote anything other than legal class 1 bikes on our trails, the only negative is more traffic, but that's life. I wish I could keep my fishing spots all to myself but it doesn't work.

What about people that use shuttles to get them up the mountain? Or Ski lifts? Are they choosing to get less of a workout? or perhaps they are just choosing to adjust their workout to enjoy the fun parts of the ride. Maybe they will decide to get an EMTB one day so they don't need a shuttle or lift. Does this mean they should they just get a moto?


----------



## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> For me an ebike is of no use for these issues, and more importantly *I have no interest in them.*
> I'm not telling you or anyone else that they would be better off if they only rode bicycles, nor am I *saying anything negative about someone who only likes electric bikes.* If you like both that's great, more power to you!


Why do you spend so much time in the E-bike forum? What are you trying to say? Serious question.

Not saying you shouldn't be here, If you like contentious conversations, more power to you!


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

No, people who like to climb are people who like to climb, the desire to ride downhill has little bearing on how you decide to get up the hill.

I like climbing, even when it's hard, it's my workout and it's my way to "earn turns".

Gone are the days when I want more downhill, I have no interest in lift served and I rarely shuttle. I'd gladly do a seven mile climb for a seven mile downhill.

So no, it's not XC vs enduro or old vs new. Think of it like you would a backcountry skier and a resort skier, different strokes for different folks.



rod9301 said:


> Is it possible that xc guys do not like the idea of an e bike, while Enduro oriented guys like it?
> 
> Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## KtownRider (Nov 14, 2019)

I like climbing too, but just not in the same way.

Going to first gear, max boost, & attacking a hill that would otherwise be impossible to climb is super fun & challenging both in skill and stamina. I like that I can get my heart rate so high without even realizing it because the adrenalin is pumping too. It's like a new sport actually!


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mlx john said:


> Why do you spend so much time in the E-bike forum? What are you trying to say? Serious question.
> 
> Not saying you shouldn't be here, If you like contentious conversations, more power to you!


I knew I should have edited that the moment I posted it. I meant to say that I have no interest in *owning* one but I'm very much interested in the machines themselves and the policies that guide them.

And how I spend my time is my own business, you won't find me questioning anyone else about how they spend theirs.


----------



## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

How many times can you beat a dead horse? Isn't this supposed to be about fitness anyways?


----------



## KtownRider (Nov 14, 2019)

I think good points have been made about the workout level. I think in general it's going to be less but often not by a huge margin. In some cases it can be relatively equal. It totally depends on the user and that's the great thing about pedal assist is that you can adjust according to how you feel. 

This means that overall the fitness benefit for us average/casual riders is going to be greater because we are getting out more.

I'm tired because we were out late last night, not feeling like hitting the peddles hard today VS I'll just use more assistance today because I feel up to getting some fresh air. Then the blood gets pumping, the brain gets more oxygen & you drop the assistance level!

Sorry EMTB haters, we are not going away, in fact this wave is only going to grow. They are not "motorcycles" and they do not hurt the trails any more than a analog bike. IMO higher numbers of trail users means more pressure to keep areas open to users and/or create more user areas. We have strength in numbers. 

Reminds me of when snowboards first came out.


----------



## motox155 (Jan 27, 2006)

Back on topic. The people poo-pooing ebikes really should try one. They are undeniably fun, and isn't that why we do this stuff? You WILL get a workout. I usually ride mine in eco mode and can keep my heart rate elevated as long as I'd like. I dig mine.


----------



## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Here is a link to a study performed on the two by Public Health Board at BY.
> https://apple.news/ALzEQfeltTYmS6qgNVbYBbw


"Maybe the real cheating is that alluring, lazy excuse we all give ourselves: it's easier to go by car."

Good finish to the article.

I'm down to fifty percent assist on my ride to work; what that gets me is a shock-free ride at the same speed as my road bike; 15 to 16 mph at around 150 to 200 watts of effort depending on wind.


----------



## Twimby (Jun 27, 2013)

On topic, I have taken both bikes and ridden the same circuit on each. Way harder on the puny human leg bike than the E.


----------



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Let's try to keep this thread back on topic: ebike more or less of a workout


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I'm atypical; ride MTB a couple of times a week and eMTB a couple (unless my wife and I are into hiking that week, then riding may be decreased slightly). Usually cover about the same distance in the same time on either, so derive much less exercise on the assisted platform. I'm out for fun and don't care


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> Let's try to keep this thread back on topic: ebike more or less of a workout


I am pretty sure the answer was already given, both by those with eBikes and those who can logically work it out. At this point we are just beating a dead horse.

a ebike is less of a workout if it is a direct replacement to the time and or distance currently spent on a pedal bike.

those who have seen an increase in fitness or exercise have only done so because they ride the eBike more than they did the pedal bike.

To get a better workout on an eBike one would need to turn off the assist or ride it more.

end thread.


----------



## KtownRider (Nov 14, 2019)

Klurejr said:


> I am pretty sure the answer was already given, both by those with eBikes and those who can logically work it out. At this point we are just beating a dead horse.
> 
> a ebike is less of a workout if it is a direct replacement to the time and or distance currently spent on a pedal bike.
> 
> ...


I agree


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> I am pretty sure the answer was already given, both by those with eBikes and those who can logically work it out. At this point we are just beating a dead horse.
> 
> a ebike is less of a workout if it is a direct replacement to the time and or distance currently spent on a pedal bike.
> 
> ...


I agree if it's the same distance.

But if you ride 2 hours on a regular mtb it's the same workout as if you ride 2 hours on a e mtb.

Or two hours skinning, road biking, hiking.

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rod9301 said:


> I agree if it's the same distance.
> 
> But if you ride 2 hours on a regular mtb it's the same workout as if you ride 2 hours on a e mtb.


What if you averaged 100 watts for 2 hours on the e-bike and 200 watts for 2 hours on the mtb? Or vise-versa? Are the workouts still the same?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> To get a better workout on an eBike one would need to turn off the assist or ride it more.
> 
> end thread.


Nope, see above post 

*totally agree that it's very unlikely for the 2 workouts to be even if both are the same time but it is possible


----------



## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> What if you averaged 100 watts for 2 hours on the e-bike and 200 watts for 2 hours on the mtb? Or vise-versa? Are the workouts still the same?


But why would you average less on a e bike?

In ski sports, you end up working at a similar intensity. On a e bike this translates into much higher uphill speeds, but the same energy expenditure.

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rod9301 said:


> But why would you average less on a e bike?


I don't know, why wouldn't you?

Just saying the workouts would only be equal if the power was equal. Lots of people buy ebikes to make hills easier and hills can only be easier if the rider expends less power.

I'm sure some e-bike riders push the pedals just as hard as they would on a bicycle, probably not the majority though.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rod9301 said:


> But if you ride 2 hours on a regular mtb it's the same workout as if you ride 2 hours on a e mtb.


While it is possible to have an equal workout from 2 hours on the MTB and 2 hours on the eMTB, it is very unlikely because when on the eMTB you have a motor assisting you on the climbs and climbs are where the most energy is expended.

Everything I have read on this site from regular eMTB users is they know the eMTB is less effort due to Motor Assistance. Some don't care and ride them because they are fun(I agree having a motor to assist the climbs is fun), some find they are getting just as much exercise as before because the fun factor stimulates them to ride the eMTB more than they ever rode the Pedal MTB.

All of the articles pointing out the exercise benefits of eBikes (Both road and eMTB) use this same line of reasoning, eBikes for road use get people on bikes who would never consider a pedal only bike for small trips, commuting or pleasure rides. And that is a good thing! That is also a very reasonable assumption. Again, the fun factor and the ease of use(motor assisted) changes the perception of what a bicycle can be.

But to put a motorized bicycle next to a non-motorized bicycle and make any sort of claim that they will provide equal exercise under the same exact circumstances is just not true.

I stated it before in this thread, it all depends on the circumstances. For me personally, moving from my Pedal MTB to an eMTB would not increase my fitness. I have 2 small children and limited windows of time to ride. I bring my 3 year old with me on my rides. Getting a bike that has a motor and assists me on the climbs during my small windows would mean less power output for me each week. Now in 20 years when my kids are out of the house and I am in my 60's that will change, I will have more free time and probably welcome the assist to support my aging body on the climbs.

This is not a Black and White issue.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

rod9301 said:


> But if you ride 2 hours on a regular mtb it's the same workout as if you ride 2 hours on a e mtb.
> 
> Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk


Under what conditions for each bike?


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Crankout said:


> Under what conditions for each bike?


Exactly. That is the problem with someone making a Black and white statement like that.

2 hours on each bike will never be equal since the motor will make the climbs faster on the eBike and thus the rider will cover more distance.

I can ride my MTB for 2 hours and burn a way more calories climbing steep grades and doing technical downhill than if I ride my cruiser bike on flat paved trails by the beach for 2 hours. I might only cover 10-12 miles on the MTB on such a ride but cover 20 on the cruiser and the results will be drastically different when it comes to energy expended.

Really everything here is speculation until someone straps on a HR monitor or Power meter and tracks a bunch of data for the riding of different bikes to make a definitive statement, but I am quite positive the results will vary depending on the conditions and circumstances surrounding each ride.

That said, if all things are equal, having a motor to assist means less exercise.

Those making claims that having a motor means same or better exercise are talking about conditions that are not equal.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> Exactly. That is the problem with someone making a Black and white statement like that.
> 
> 2 hours on each bike will never be equal since the motor will make the climbs faster on the eBike and thus the rider will cover more distance.


You followed your first sentence with a black & white statement 

Why would distance matter as far as equal workouts in the same time? I judge the severity of my workouts by average power x time, the distance traveled is irrelevant.

One could pedal very easy on a bicycle for an hour, or very hard on an e'bike for an hour.


----------



## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't know, why wouldn't you?
> 
> Just saying the workouts would only be equal if the power was equal. Lots of people buy ebikes to make hills easier and hills can only be easier if the rider expends less power.
> 
> I'm sure some e-bike riders push the pedals just as hard as they would on a bicycle, probably not the majority though.


It's not always only about "easier," sometimes it's about "possible."

A lot of people don't have the fitness to make it up those climbs in one go, so it can make the difference between grinding up non-stop or blowing up and stopping multiple times.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> You followed your first sentence with a black & white statement
> 
> Why would distance matter as far as equal workouts in the same time? I judge the severity of my workouts by average power x time, the distance traveled is irrelevant.
> 
> One could pedal very easy on a bicycle for an hour, or very hard on an e'bike for an hour.


take in the context of my entire comment and you will see I am not making a black and white statement... but yes that one sentence taken out of context seems like it is.


----------



## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> Exactly. That is the problem with someone making a Black and white statement like that.
> 
> 2 hours on each bike will never be equal since the motor will make the climbs faster on the eBike and thus the rider will cover more distance.
> 
> ...


I've ridden with someone on an ebike with a hrm and she not only worked harder than me, she rode just as hard as she does on a non-assisted bike. We just went faster.


----------



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

From my experience, ive found that the only exercise portion that is harder on a emtb would be your upper body. Period. Or turn it off, then you better be a stud!


----------



## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Gutch said:


> From my experience, ive found that the only exercise portion that is harder on a emtb would be your upper body. Period. Or turn it off, then you better be a stud!


Only if you're strong enough that your normal effort results in speeds that are literally too fast for the trails, otherwise you just go faster. But if that's the case, the person in question probably wouldn't be spending the extra cash on an ebike.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

richde said:


> I've ridden with someone on an ebike with a hrm and she not only worked harder than me, she rode just as hard as she does on a non-assisted bike. We just went faster.


I don't think you understand the physics here.

If she rode a specific 10 mile distance and her Heart Rate was at a specific level for that entire ride on an eBike, it would be very difficult to replicate that exact same workout on a pedal bike for the same distance and same amount of time.

The 2 are not apples to apples.

How she compares to you is of no relevance.


----------



## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

2 examples;

Rider 'A' goes for a one hour ride and their heart rate is a steady 150 beats per minute.

The same rider, this time we call them rider 'E' goes for an eBike ride for one hour and they maintain their heart rate at a steady 150 beats per minute.

Example Number 1
Rider 'A' One hour workout at 150 bpm
Rider 'E' One hour workout at 150 bpm
This to me equals the same workout, or very close to the same.

Distance ridden has little to do with the workout performed, however it is clear rider 'E' is going to travel a longer distance in the same hour and that will lead to a more complete body workout overall.

On the other hand...

Example Number 2
Rider 'A' goes for a 1 hour ride and travels 10 miles with a heart rate of 150 bpm.
Rider 'E' goes for a 1 hour ride and travels 10 miles but their heart rate does not get above 130 bpm due to the fact they are not pushing on the pedals as hard and the motor assists them up to the pace needed.

In this scenario rider 'A' gets a better workout and rider 'E' is "a slacker", "a cheater", "lazy" or perhaps just taking a recovery day and enjoying the fresh air.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

TheBikeStore said:


> 2 examples;
> 
> Rider 'A' goes for a one hour ride and their heart rate is a steady 150 beats per minute.
> 
> ...


^this guy gets it, A+!


----------



## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> I don't think you understand the physics here.
> 
> If she rode a specific 10 mile distance and her Heart Rate was at a specific level for that entire ride on an eBike, it would be very difficult to replicate that exact same workout on a pedal bike for the same distance and same amount of time.
> 
> ...


Not sure why you'd make the assumption that the increased speed was over the same distance, but you shouldn't do that.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

TheBikeStore said:


> 2 examples;
> 
> Rider 'A' goes for a one hour ride and their heart rate is a steady 150 beats per minute.
> 
> ...


Exactly, everything is situational. But I am not a fan of calling rider "E" a Slacker, Lazy or a cheater.

I do think that Example number 1 is unlikely unless someone is riding on a flat surface the entire time. Hills and gravity will effect the Heart Rate of the Pedal Bike more than they will of the eBike.


----------



## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

I have installed two befang conversions for a friend. He is 62. He used to use his atv for hunting and such. He now uses his fat bike that I converted. For him the ebike has been a great source of exercise that he would not have gotten otherwise.

As for rider E..there is more to biking that defines a slacker than how high one gets their heartbeat during a ride.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> I don't think you understand the physics here.
> 
> If she rode a specific 10 mile distance and her Heart Rate was at a specific level for that entire ride on an eBike, it would be very difficult to replicate that exact same workout on a pedal bike for the same distance and same amount of time.
> 
> ...


This is what I was trying to elicit from Rich on my last post.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Klurejr said:


> I do think that Example number 1 is unlikely unless someone is riding on a flat surface the entire time.


Are you trying to argue that rider A/Enduro is unlikely to have similar heart rate to rider E/XC, unless the course were featureless, and that such an example is so unrealistic and theoretical that it can't apply to reality?



Klurejr said:


> Hills and gravity will effect the Heart Rate of the Pedal Bike more than they will of the eBike.


This kind of is like example 2. It's like saying a 30+ lb bike gets effected more by hills and gravity more than a sub-25 lb bike. Or an enduro bike gets less workout on descents, but more workout on the climbs compared to a XC bike. I agree if comparing on any single climb/descent, but do you consider one of them to have more or less workout based on a 1 hour ride at certain average heart rate?

====

I argue that an ebike is merely just another bike in the quiver. People pick different bikes for different purposes. Based on my experience, I'm more inclined to go harder on climbs on an ebike, am lazier on the flats, and hitting my physical ability limit on descents much sooner. Less reason to pace myself on climbs (e.g. worrying about recovering from the high effort, AKA blowing up). Less reason to avoid nasty climbs. More reason to hold back on intensity on flats, mostly in cases where speed is uncomfortable, such as when the trail has my vision focused more up close to the front tire, than far out, due to obstacles that can cause crashes, narrowness, twistiness, limited sight lines to spot such obstacles coming from far away. When I ride socially, I can merely turn the assist off and be better off on intensity than my ride buddies. More reason to build up muscle, in order to handle the bike's heft.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Wow, you guys must be really bored, to have such a really boring conversation, I mean are there no cars to chase, fires to put out, or things in the garage that need to be cleaned?

Okay, let's take a vote:

Is this the stupidest thing current being debated on MTBR?


----------



## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Nurse Ben said:


> Wow, you guys must be really bored, to have such a really boring conversation, I mean are there no cars to chase, fires to put out, or things in the garage that need to be cleaned?
> 
> Okay, let's take a vote:
> 
> Is this the stupidest thing current being debated on MTBR?


Ebikes.......yes.


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> Wow, you guys must be really bored, to have such a really boring conversation, I mean are there no cars to chase, fires to put out, or things in the garage that need to be cleaned?
> 
> Okay, let's take a vote:
> 
> Is this the stupidest thing current being debated on MTBR?


Without a doubt.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

You guys really keep track of your heart rates?! That right there is more detail then I need to know when I ride. Where it does get interesting is when on a ride that is taking me into unknown territory, when I have no idea how tough or how long the ride will be. I do enjoy the need to conserve my and the batteries energy in the most efficient way possible, the synergy between the two energy sources is fascinating. More e help less fatigue, less e help, longer range, juggling the two back and forth is great fun, when I get it right.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

portnuefpeddler said:


> You guys really keep track of your heart rates?!


Never used to but I find it kind of interesting now, sort of like the way you enjoy toggling between assist levels depending on the circumstances. My heart is my motor. Different strokes.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Never used to but I find it kind of interesting now, sort of like the way you enjoy toggling between assist levels depending on the circumstances. My heart is my motor. Different strokes.


Boom...


----------



## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

Is this what you wanted?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6711045/


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Train Wreck said:


> Is this what you wanted?
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6711045/


Great link. I totally agree with and my own data mirrors the articles conclusion:



> _The average heart rate during eMTB use was 94% (31/33) of the average heart rate during conventional mountain bike use. Therefore, eMTB use in this study achieved a majority of the exercise response and exceeded established biometric thresholds for cardiovascular fitness. Paired t test statistics were calculated to compare beliefs of conventional mountain bikes and eMTBs and to compare mean heart rate and speed between conventional mountain bike and eMTB use on the study loop. *Participants overwhelmingly perceived the potential impact of eMTB use to be positive on both pre- and post-eMTB ride questionnaires*. ... Despite the measured benefit, participants' perceived exertion while riding the eMTB was low._


----------



## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

If they guys I race against want to train on an ebike, I'm all for it.:thumbsup:


----------



## RickBullottaPA (Mar 4, 2015)

Train Wreck said:


> If they guys I race against want to train on an ebike, I'm all for it.:thumbsup:


Be careful what you wish for! ;-)

If they train on a regular bike *AND* an eMTB, performance may improve. It did for me. I ride 200-300 miles a month between a regular MTB, a gravel bike, and my eMTB. My eMTB lets me get out for an extra ride on days when I might otherwise be sitting on my butt. Also, the increased speeds of the eMTB definitely improves handling skills and reaction time, and working the extra weight of the eMTB on gnar boosts upper body fitness.

Since I got my eMTB, my performance on my regular MTB is definitely improved.


----------



## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

portnuefpeddler said:


> You guys really keep track of your heart rates?!


Yes, I always have, well since 1986. My first heart rate monitor had a wire that came out from under my shirt and plugged into my bike computer and I had to use some sort of contact gel to make the sensors read my signals correctly.

I have always ridden with a cadence sensor as well. They are both great tools to keep the activity level low on days that should be taken easy. You don't truly need them on hard days, but the crazy high 200 bpm averages on 2+ hour race days were a cool thing to see when in my youth. Now if I break 190 things get dark and spooky.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I started tracking heart rate for 7 days. I learned on my last ride that anything over 150 bpm is what I'd classify as training for racing. It was essentially sucking the fun out of the ride; just grinding for miles and elevation is lame, even if there's a bit of touring being done, when all this fun optional stuff is getting passed due to me being exhausted.


----------



## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

ninjichor said:


> I learned on my last ride that anything over 150 bpm is what I'd classify as treating the ride as training for "XC racing"..


You don't think DH and Enduro racers also train at high intensity?

Heart rates are highly variable.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> Is this the stupidest thing current being debated on MTBR?


Probably not......



portnuefpeddler said:


> You guys really keep track of your heart rates?! That right there is more detail then I need to know when I ride.


I did for a time after I suffered an Aortic Dissection. My doctors agreed that anything over 155bpm would be dangerous to my health, so when I started riding again I kept a close watch on it for about a year.

I found that if I skipped my midday dose of one of my 3 Blood Pressure meds I could manage to get just up to 155bpm.
If I took that midday dose and did an afternoon ride I could never get above 147bpm.

After enough tracking of this I realized it was not changing so I stopped wearing it knowing my limitations will always be there as long as I take the meds.



roughster said:


> Great link. I totally agree with and my own data mirrors the articles conclusion:


You quoted that they tracked eBiking as 94% less effort than pedaling. So that backs up the claims the a motor assist is going to mean less exertion from the body, am I reading that right?

94% less is a big number. Or are they saying it is 6% less effort?


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> Probably not......
> 
> I did for a time after I suffered an Aortic Dissection. My doctors agreed that anything over 155bpm would be dangerous to my health, so when I started riding again I kept a close watch on it for about a year.
> 
> ...


HR on e-bike was 94% of HR on regular bike. I wouldn't say that HR is a direct linear equivalent to intensity though. There is a sizable difference (for me anyway) between how hard I'm working when I'm at a HR of 135-145 vs a HR of 155-160. I can stay at or below 145 all day but if I'm over 150 it's likely because I'm over threshold.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Here's two similar rides I did with heart rate monitor, a week between them:









^ 2515 kJ total work (energy output)









^ 2401 kJ total work (energy output)

A 500 Wh battery probably accounts for at most 1350 kJ, taking into account a motor's efficiency of about 75%. Whatever I did on the first ride with the ebike, which you can tell by the signs of the 20 mph cutoff on the speed graph, that made it seem like I worked more than the 2nd ride is kind of moot. The second ride, I busted my ass off to "accomplish".

Call me weak, but I enjoyed the former than the latter. In the latter ride, a buddy was going 120-150 bpm, easily keeping up when following and easily taking off when in the lead. I felt crushed and I was skipping optional technical lines. Not really into the whole training thing.

This is the ride analysis of what he did with me:










Buddy could've handicapped himself more to get a better workout when riding with me, considering the fitness gap. I handicapped myself though, since I choose bikes based on utility and reliability, weigh myself down with all sorts gear and preparations, and ride 20 miles to and from the trail head.

Funny trivia: I was more likely to come to a complete stop at stop signs when I had pedal assist available, since I didn't feel like my hard earned speed was too precious to be wasted on such.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Train Wreck said:


> You don't think DH and Enduro racers also train at high intensity?
> 
> Heart rates are highly variable.


Jared Graves and Loic Bruni both do some pretty brutally hard rides. I guess they are just XC racers who don't like to have fun?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Looked a bit closer at my data, and noticed at the 20-30 mile area in the first graph, there's numerous steep spikes in speed. I claimed turbo mode had speed that was overkill on trails, noting that it was hard to control, but I was using Eco mode for a vast majority of the ride in order for it to endure 50 miles in such cool temps. I'm getting 40 mins per bar on a good day (out of 5 bars); 30 minutes per bar on a cold day. The steep spikes represent sharp acceleration & deceleration. Quite a difference to the second graph...

Also, the ebike is totally fine to pedal without assist. Not sure why people are assuming the ride's over without the battery. With assist, it's probably 2 mph faster and 35-50 W higher on average in Eco mode. I feel that speed by itself gets the blood pumping and find that it's hard to judge by feel, that the ebike's doing anywhere near 1/2 of the work in eco mode. In higher assist levels, it's likely doing a majority of the work on anything but climbs, but I feel that it feels nicer to feel the limits of the equipment for a change, compared to always be limited by my fitness.

Been doing errands and even transporting full size bike on my back, which I am selling on ebay since I find the ebike is so versatile. I've explored random hills around town, but haven't made repeat visits since they aren't very interesting beyond the novelty of exploration.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Klurejr said:


> You quoted that they tracked eBiking as 94% less effort than pedaling. So that backs up the claims the a motor assist is going to mean less exertion from the body, am I reading that right?
> 
> 94% less is a big number. Or are they saying it is 6% less effort?


You read / understood it incorrectly. Ave HR is 94% normal HR compared to analog MTB HR. So only a 6% drop.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> Also, the ebike is totally fine to pedal without assist. Not sure why people are assuming the ride's over without the battery.


lol, I guess we have different definitions of "totally fine."


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

roughster said:


> You read / understood it incorrectly. Ave HR is 94% normal HR compared to analog MTB HR. So only a 6% drop.


A 10bpm drop and they rode for 2/3rds the time.

Those are not "the same". A 10bpm jump is huge.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> A 10bpm drop and they rode for 2/3rds the time.
> 
> Those are not "the same". A 10bpm jump is huge.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sounds like you should run your own peer reviewed scientific study that is formally published in a medical journal. I'll eagerly await your results / paper ...


----------



## scatterbrained (Mar 11, 2008)

roughster said:


> Sounds like you should run your own peer reviewed scientific study that is formally published in a medical journal. I'll eagerly await your results / paper ...


You might be surprised to find out how easy that actually is. . . . 
.
.
also, as I pointed out earlier, the difference of 10bpm is (for me) the difference between aerobic and anaerobic. I'm 40yrs old (just above the study average) and I can run between 140-145bpm all day. Once I start pushing into the 150s is when I go anaerobic and I really start to feel the effort. It is a significant jump.


----------



## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

SWriverstone said:


> NOTE: This thread is NOT a troll. It's a sincere attempt to have an intelligent conversation!
> ---
> ---
> Again-for anyone who thinks this is a troll because you might perceive my post as anti e-bikes, you're wrong. I'm not anti e-bikes at all. I'm just trying to separate the facts from the marketing bullshit!
> ...


Well, I'll tell ya what. After the OP started this Epic post, after posting up a few more times on the same day he started the post; waaaay back in 15 October 2019, after 239 entries and counting and absolutely nothing back from the OP after 15 Oct 2019 and after everything explored under the sun about mtb ebikes, rehashing the same thing over and over and over again; I done think this may be the grandest troll of a post ever concieved. Well done! 

Shut it down....


----------



## tehllama (Jul 18, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm sure some e-bike riders push the pedals just as hard as they would on a bicycle, probably not the majority though.


I would want to think I'd be in that minority, but suspect that I would just think myself in that, but in practice not.

Really, that breakover point can only usefully happy if I'm actually going on MORE rides, enough to counteract the reduced wattage output while riding (however much I can minimize that)


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

The mental gymnastics people are doing can be boiled down to this:

*People tend to put effort into whatever goals they make.*

Your goals on a XC rocket can be different from your goals on an enduro bike. Same goes for goals on an emtb possibly being different. If someone sets a goal to get out to exercise more, and drive less, stare at a screen less, replacing other activities deemed unhealthy, and was one of those types who was appalled at a bike costing $1000+, citing it better come with a motor, well the market is now catering to their demands.

Sharing opinions about what others would do on an emtb screams _ignorant judgement_. Being all negative, acting like you're entitled to your opinion even if people disagree and support it with all sorts of factual stuff, is toxic.

One of my goals for now is to get a pedal-assist mtb that handles like an Ibis Ripmo AF, but trades any weight weenie race-tuned aspect for reliability and well-rounded capability. My goal after that is to replacing a bulk of the endurance training with strength training, and fast-track myself to conquer more of my fears, excuses, and whatever else is putting a damper on my progression (e.g. fitness-based compromises, like choosing shitty weak tires, or choosing to go without adequate protective gear for the risks involved). My progression doesn't involve racing, so those people who imagine a motorhead riding a lot faster than others at cost of etiquette don't have to fear my case.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

scatterbrained said:


> You might be surprised to find out how easy that actually is. . . .
> .
> .
> also, as I pointed out earlier, the difference of 10bpm is (for me) the difference between aerobic and anaerobic. I'm 40yrs old (just above the study average) and I can run between 140-145bpm all day. Once I start pushing into the 150s is when I go anaerobic and I really start to feel the effort. It is a significant jump.


Sweet! You are the basis by which all other human activity should be judged. Can you enlighten us more on your stats, your habits, your preference of rides, whether or not you like long walks on the beach, and most importantly, whether you like Piña Colada and getting caught in the rain...


----------



## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

scatterbrained said:


> You might be surprised to find out how easy that actually is. . . .
> .
> .
> also, as I pointed out earlier, the difference of 10bpm is (for me) the difference between aerobic and anaerobic. I'm 40yrs old (just above the study average) and I can run between 140-145bpm all day. Once I start pushing into the 150s is when I go anaerobic and I really start to feel the effort. It is a significant jump.


I usually average around 130bpm over the space of a (non-assisted) mtb ride, because I can and that's how I usually want to ride it. I cruise up the hills and ride moderately quickly down (relative to what I could do). My moderate speed is faster than some people's all out, so who's less worthy...the people who aren't trying as hard, or those that try and fail to do?

My road bike otoh, that's where the hammer gets dropped.

Obviously there are plenty of people that can drop me like a bad habit, but they're doing their thing and I'm doing mine. Kinda like choosing between an ebike and an unassisted bike.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> Sharing opinions about what others would do on an emtb screams _ignorant judgement_. Being all negative, acting like you're entitled to your opinion even if people disagree and support it with all sorts of factual stuff, is toxic.
> 
> One of my goals for now is to get a pedal-assist mtb that handles like an Ibis Ripmo AF, but trades any weight weenie race-tuned aspect for reliability and well-rounded capability. My goal after that is to replacing a bulk of the endurance training with strength training, and fast-track myself to conquer more of my fears, excuses, and whatever else is putting a damper on my progression (e.g. fitness-based compromises, like choosing shitty weak tires, or choosing to go without adequate protective gear for the risks involved). My progression doesn't involve racing, so those people who imagine a motorhead riding a lot faster than others at cost of etiquette don't have to fear my case.


I agree it's a dumb thread. IMHO the vast majority of electric bike riders will burn less calories per hour but will probably more than make up for that by riding more than they would have otherwise, and this is in no way a derogatory or negative statement towards e-bikers or any other group.


----------



## hikerdave (Mar 8, 2006)

portnuefpeddler said:


> You guys really keep track of your heart rates?! That right there is more detail then I need to know when I ride. Where it does get interesting is when on a ride that is taking me into unknown territory, when I have no idea how tough or how long the ride will be. I do enjoy the need to conserve my and the batteries energy in the most efficient way possible, the synergy between the two energy sources is fascinating. More e help less fatigue, less e help, longer range, juggling the two back and forth is great fun, when I get it right.


Watching heart rate worked well for me when I used to do all day rides on my mountain bike because for me the key to having enough left in the tank to get home without bonking was to avoid bursts of high effort especially during the big climb at the beginning of my ride. Otherwise it was my nature to go all-out and burn down my "battery" pretty fast. I wore the monitor once during a soccer practice scrimmage and never went below 175 bpm (which is way above the maximum I ever see now that I'm older). The eBike more than compensates for age but on those long rides long ago I'm sure the battery would have been completely wasted after the initial climb.


----------



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Agree with those who say this is foolish. My wife and I push fairly hard on MTB rides at least twice a week; my eMTB excursions are far less strenuous. Everyone who rides an MTB and/or eMTB has his own exercise "profile". IMO, who cares? Some of the data compares riding an ebike to riding a couch. Fairly predictable results.


----------

