# Steel vs. Aluminum frames



## Juancts (Dec 20, 2011)

Been thinking about getting a new bike for light trails and maybe some touring. Some of the bikes I've found online are steel bikes.

I have a Trek Marlin 29er, so I know the benefits of aluminum (lightweight and no rust). Steel rusts and is heavy. I wonder what are the benefits of steel in 2019 ???


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Ride quality is hard to describe without riding a good steel frame. 

Rust is really not an issue. Steel frames generally don't rust unless you leave them outside in the rain all the time or do similarly irresponsible things. Many current steel frames have rust-protecting treatment in the tubes anyway.

Heavy, sure. How light do you think you need your bike to be?


----------



## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Yeah, you really have to try to notice the difference.

I prefer steel, and I'm a fairly new rider. I love their style of frames, and everything they have to offer.

Very personal decision.

I went from aluminum to steel on my gravel like, and it was night and day. Now all my bikes but one are steel.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I now have 2 steel bikes (one road, one mtb), and one bike that's aluminum/carbon (full suspension mtb).

I like steel's ride quality. Not hi-tensile steel that you find on department store bikes. I'm talking decent quality cromoly steel.

The weight of steel is enormously variable. Sure, cheap steel bikes are usually heavy (just like cheap aluminum bikes). But a high end one? Can be extremely light, if it's not overbuilt for hard riding. Same as any other material.

IMO, you can't find a much worse ride quality than cheap aluminum. Though I haven't ridden a cheap carbon bike yet, so I could be proven wrong on that.

Rust is a non-issue. Chains are steel. Most spokes are steel. Most cassettes have at least some steel on them. I ride in an area that's nearly a temperate rainforest. None of my steel stuff is rusting.


----------



## mr_chrome (Jan 17, 2005)

- I like steel and Ti better than AL, and as all have said, both have better ride quality than aluminum........


----------



## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

The differences in ride quality between steel, aluminum and carbon stand out on bikes with skinny high pressure tires, like traditional road bikes. The fatter the tires and lower the tire pressure, the less difference frame material makes to ride quality. Add suspension and it's nill, IMO. Eight years ago I still had steel, aluminum and CF road bikes and an al FS mtb. Now I just have CF road bikes and al and CF FS mtbs. I'll stick with CF on the road bikes but am completely happy with al mtbs.

Agree that corrosion with a good steel bike is not really an issue. High quality finishes and internal anti rust treatment basically solve that. You can do an internal anti rust treatment yourself if the bike doesn't come treated.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Lone Rager said:


> The differences in ride quality between steel, aluminum and carbon stand out on bikes with skinny high pressure tires, like traditional road bikes...


Agreed. I would add hardtails to the list as well.

Contrary to a lot of serious seasoned riders at this site, I steer clear of aluminum period, but especially on road bikes and hardtails. That said, I do have an older high end aluminium cyclocross (a Made in the USA C-dale with a carbon fork). Compared to my inexpensive steel fixed gear road bike (a Kona Paddy Wagon), the difference is night and day.

I have developed a real appreciation for steel for road bikes and hardtails. I go for carbon for full suspension bikes, although I notice the harshness of aluminum a lot less (bordering on negligible) with big tires and suspension.

And yes - not all aluminum, steel or carbon is the same. I am speaking in generalities, based on my personal experience to date, which I am sure is quite limited compared to some at this site.


----------



## knutso (Oct 8, 2008)

Yep Harold is right, stay away from hi-ten steel. 4130 chromoly is a sweet spot for price and performance. If a frame is chromoly, it usually means it was intended to allow more flex than an aluminum frame.

Aluminum is stiffer and can have a brittle ride quality, if that makes sense. A well made steel frame will flex in the right directions and feel more alive. With low pressure high volume tubeless tires though, it does not make as big a difference as it used to.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Harold said:


> Can be extremely light, if it's not overbuilt for hard riding. Same as any other material.


A steel bike can be built pretty light but it can't really compete with carbon.


----------



## 1x1_Speed_Craig (Jan 14, 2004)

I've owned & ridden aluminum, steel, and high-end titanium (but no carbon) frames. The aluminum (Cannondale) was light & fast, but good-quality 4130 is what I absolutely love. The titanium rode decently, but not what the dollar-to-quality ratio would have implied (the two I owned were Seven Cycles frames, BTW). At least the new Surly frames are coming with an internal ED coating to help with corrosion resistance, even though I've been diligent treating the insides of all of my steel frames.

The only aluminum bike I own is a freebie Gary Fisher that I'm building into a crap-weather commuter...so I don't have to subject my nice steel bikes to the rain, snow & salt. It's the perfect frame material for that application, IMHO.

Craig


----------



## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

I love steel(not interested in carbon) but have never ridden a FS steel bike. I noticed a few boutique steel FS frames out there recently being produced, anyone with experience on one. I can see the benefits of riding a steel HT but are there really any for riding a steel FS?


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

I've had both and it's very hard to generalise, but I guess you kinda want us to? ;0)

Weight:

Typically, a steel frame will weight a couple of pounds more than the equivalent aluminium alloy one. But that's if all else is equal. A cheap alloy bike can easily weight more than a good steel one. 

Durability:

Modern quality frames of either type last well but a steel frame will probably outlive you. Bottom line, it's nothing to worry about either way.

Comfort:

Tricky. Steel is nice. The resonant frequency of the metal is different and steel feels less 'jaring'. It depends on what the terrain is like how noticeable this is though. Also, modern manipulation of alloy allows allo frames that behave...rather unlike alloy, so there is much more variation in the way alloy frames behave than in steel ones. 

Efficiency: 

For me this is quite a big deal. Virtually all steel frames are made out of round tubes with the main difference being the quality of the steel. Alloy can be hydroformed and made into shapes which suit the job in hand. If you look at a good alloy frame you'll see all kinds of bends and variations in tube thickness on different parts of the frame. 

The result of this is that alloy frames generally turn your effort into forward motion much more effectively than steel ones do. It's very noticable. 

Neither frame type is 'better'. It's about what you personally like and prioritise. I like the ride of steel. I don't like the weight and loss of responsiveness. It's worth noting that at one time virtually all bikes were made of steel. When alloy frames could be manufactured cost effectively they took over and that situation have never been reversed. While steel frames remain popular for some riders, especially for long distance road touring, alloy remains what most people want to ride.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Mr Pig said:


> I've had both and it's very hard to generalise, but I guess you kinda want us to? ;0)
> 
> Weight:
> 
> ...


I was with you right until the end.

First, I suspect, although I may be wrong, that in certain circumstances, many who have never ridden a steel frame, may prefer it over aluminum. The issue is that many have never ridden a steel frame.

Second, and related to the first point, I would be surprised, monetary differences aside, if most/many/any would prefer alloy over ti or carbon, provided they have ridden ti and carbon.

That said, it's tough to generalize. Too many differences in the same frame material, bike style/use, trail/road conditions, suspension style and on and on and on.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> The result of this is that alloy frames generally turn your effort into forward motion much more effectively than steel ones do. It's very noticable.


I used to be think the same and kind of still do because my carbon road bike is a rocket on climbs but I saw a GCN video about a year ago that swayed my opinion some.

"perhaps it's not as important as people once assumed." 




Si (gcn presenter) likened It to the once long held belief that skinny tires and high pressure are faster, and the fact that even though they _feel_ faster studies have since proven otherwise.

My carbon frame is faster on climbs than my old Columbus SLX steel road frame but maybe that's because it's over 5 pounds lighter and has nothing to do with frame flex?

Anyway, food for thought.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Is rust really that big of an issue? I use Fluid Film to protect the unpainted surfaces, such as the interior of the tubes, on my steel frames. It's fine if it has a coating--see crank spindles, chains, cables, bolts, small parts like RD springs, etc.

I consider weight to be a fair trade-off for toughness, ride characteristics, and affordability. I'm no longer racing (ran carbon for that) and I get used to what I run.

I currently have a Niner ROS9, Swobo Sanchez, and will receive a steel FS by the end of this month. I kept these over aluminum options, such as a Gary Fisher Rig, Trek Crockett, and Yeti ASR7. Should sell my carbon stuff...


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I have two steel bikes and two carbon bikes. Both of my carbon bikes are heavier than my steel bikes. My best carbon bike is worth about four times my best steel bike and weighs about 10# more, so it's not just what material the frame is made out of but also what you bolt onto it that matters. I grab my heaviest bike 99 rides out of 100 because it's the most fun.

For "light trails and touring" I'm not sure you'd be able to discern the subtle but better (IMO) ride quality of good steel, especially if you're carrying loaded bags on the bike.


----------



## root (Jan 24, 2006)

My lightest bike is steel. Not exactly fair comparing a full ridgid True Temper XC whip to my carbon enduro though. Its funny that aside from bottom of the line steel bikes, steel bikes now often cost as much as anything else, having become boutique handmade things of beauty. I am awaiting delivery of a cross frame. Rust is evil though, i didn’t immediately address chips so there ate now spiderwebs under the paint . Note that aluminum corrodes too, ive got parts that are chalky.
I think steel is the material of choice for hand builders as its easiest to handle and build with. Aluminum some grades you cant weld without having to heat treat again.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

My new steel hardtail is more harsh than my old aluminum hardtail. I suspect it's due to the short chainstays. It does feel smoother on small trail chatter but anything larger feels harsher on the steel bike.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Mr Pig said:


> alloy remains what most people want to ride.


I think _most_ people don't even know or care what their frame is made out of. "It's blue and was on sale."

Enthusiasts however, people who _really_ get into bikes, I think _want_ to ride carbon. Whether they want to pay the higher price for it or not is a different matter.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Titanium


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

No frame material is perfect for every application, unless you're me, then steel is the best frame material every time.


----------



## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

*OneSpeed* said:


> No frame material is perfect for every application, unless you're me, then steel is the best frame material every time.


I'm in too!


----------



## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

The best riding hardtails I've rode are high end steel production frames, then high end Ti, and the best riding frame ever has been custom frames with plain 'ol 4130. I've never owned carbon or aluminum hardtails so I can't comment.


----------



## gfourth (Apr 12, 2009)

Lone Rager said:


> The differences in ride quality between steel, aluminum and carbon stand out on bikes with skinny high pressure tires, like traditional road bikes. The fatter the tires and lower the tire pressure, the less difference frame material makes to ride quality. Add suspension and it's nill, IMO.


I used to think this way also... until I rode one. Your fork and shock only work in a few dimensions, tires and pressure only do so much- there is still a lot of feedback being transmitted to the rider. A steel FS is a f-n treat to ride. Ultimate traction. Sure everyone says they can achieve the same compliance with alu or CF but I've yet to see a frame designed and marketed and such. It's a shame everyone buys into the lighter and stiffer mentality.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I think that GCN vid is onto something. They mentioned something about new bikes liking to be sit-and-spin types of bikes. I'm getting away from that style. I like to mash. Maybe that's why I have a stronger attraction to steel. Perhaps that flex makes mashing more viable, and less of a strain on your knees. My 2 current steel frames are singlespeeds, and I plan on putting a relatively high gear on the new FS I'm getting (with a ridiculously steep STA).


----------



## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

gfourth said:


> I used to think this way also... until I rode one. Your fork and shock only work in a few dimensions, tires and pressure only do so much- there is still a lot of feedback being transmitted to the rider. A steel FS is a f-n treat to ride. Ultimate traction. Sure everyone says they can achieve the same compliance with alu or CF but I've yet to see a frame designed and marketed and such. It's a shame everyone buys into the lighter and stiffer mentality.


I agree. A well built steel frame has a "sproing" that you can't achieve with other materials.


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Steel is easier to repair than aluminum when a frame is cracked or broken. Steel is also easier to straighten or cold set as needed when out of alignment. These are two reasons steel is the choice of many touring cyclists, especially when traveling to more remote locations in which a broken aluminum or carbon bike would end the tour, but a local welder might be able to make repairs that would allow a steel bike owner to continue. Also, it is easier to add additional water bottle and rack braze-ons to a steel frame than to most other materials, so you can customize your frame to your specific use and carrying needs.

The frame material can affect ride quality to a degree, but geometry, componentry, tires and tire pressure, frame construction and design, type of tubing, butting within the tubing, etc can also have an effect, so I wouldn't base a steel frame purchase solely on the purported ride quality differences without riding the specific frame you have in mind and determining the ride quality really is as expected.

Of the steel mtb frames I've owned, the Tange Prestige, Ritchey Logic Prestige, Tange Ultralight, and Reynolds 853 frames have been my favorites. I didn't care as much for the 4130 frames I had. I have ridden some nice Tru-Temper frames as well, but don't know their tube sets well enough to know which ones I rode.


----------



## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

ninjichor said:


> I think that GCN vid is onto something. They mentioned something about new bikes liking to be sit-and-spin types of bikes. I'm getting away from that style. I like to mash. Maybe that's why I have a stronger attraction to steel. Perhaps that flex makes mashing more viable, and less of a strain on your knees. My 2 current steel frames are singlespeeds, and I plan on putting a relatively high gear on the new FS I'm getting (with a ridiculously steep STA).


I think flex is the wrong word. I like to use the word, "give". I had two identical full suspension frames. Both were custom six inch frames. One had a True Temper steel front triangle, the other with a 7005 Al front triangle. The Al front triangle was six ounces lighter and stiffer, but the steel frame could be led into turns that the Al frame couldn't. It's hard to put into words but the steel frame felt faster and got through sections quicker


----------



## MozFat (Dec 16, 2016)

Might help if the OP stated which steel bikes he is looking at.
My gut feel is that yes steel frames can be built light, but they tend to be high end models that don't come cheap.
In another life I have had the likes of custom SLX road frames. They gave a nice ride and we're not cheap. I also had mid range / cheapish steel mountain bikes. They did not give any magic carpet ride and were heavy.
I certainly thing at a lower/ mid level you probably get more bang for buck with Al.


----------



## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

MozFat said:


> Might help if the OP stated which steel bikes he is looking at.
> My gut feel is that yes steel frames can be built light, but they tend to be high end models that don't come cheap.
> In another life I have had the likes of custom SLX road frames. They gave a nice ride and we're not cheap. I also had mid range / cheapish steel mountain bikes. They did not give any magic carpet ride and were heavy.
> I certainly thing at a lower/ mid level you probably get more bang for buck with Al.


Rodriguez was doing stupid light road frames with S3 tubing that were lighter than Al. I weigh 177 and thought I was too heavy for them. The S3 steel road frames weighed 2.2 pounds. The same as their Scandium frames with carbon stays .

ETA Scandium aluminum, carbon fibler and S3 frames from Rodriguez


----------



## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Frame material is high on the list for considerations when choosing a bike.

That said, you'll see a lot of good feedback from very personal perspectives related to specific bikes and frame build. The way they are outfitted, tire'd and pressured will have more than a little something to do with how they 'feel' too. 
These variables that will feedback to the rider then get translated to quality, feel or effort in (your own) words or interpretation are anything but quantitative engineering numbers.

I think the best you can do is narrow down the bikes you lean toward and mention them in a post to get feedback but mainly, ride them and get the feel of each personality for yourself. 
IMO, the way the frame fits and feels in your hands and important contact points is a strong indicator. Were the sales staff told ahead to NOT divulge the frame material, you'd be doing these test rides blind without over-thinking or the essence of placebo &#8230; lol

Get to the top three or 5 you are considering and start there with a few test rides. The component list, colors and pricing or sales can all be very good added incentives to help steer you as well. Also, make sure you deal with the person or shop that gives you the best vibe for service , guidance and care after the sale.

I've got aluminum and steel bikes but with different wheels and tires, running different pressures and some geometry differences. No way can I tell that I'm feeling some level of harsh, jarring or brittle resonance coming off one bike more than another because of its frame. I'm not saying others can't or won't say they can, this is ME talking. 

* I also believe in the years that aluminum got a bit of that reputation, some have since, worked to better craft and control the process with thinner walls and different tech to 'tune' frames for better ride or 'give'. That may lead to a bit of a pricey bike or 'boutique' audience which begs the question of why go after one of those ? 
Maybe it's a handful of ounces they still end up saving over a similar price steel bike. Again, case by case.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I would be surprised, monetary differences aside, if most/many/any would prefer alloy over ti or carbon, provided they have ridden ti and carbon.


I didn't include carbon of titanium, because the OP didn't ask. He only asked about steel and alloy.

On a high-quality steel frame rush is a non-issue. Chinese box-bike, maybe.



Nat said:


> I think _most_ people don't even know or care what their frame is made out of. "It's blue and was on sale."


I think that's true to an extent, people will buy what's in the shops, but once you get away from the bottom of the barrel and into 'real' bike territory, alloy does win. It still offers the best mix of performance and price, which is why the majority of bikes are still made of it. A steel bike is going to be heavier, slower and more expensive. Generally speaking. A carbon bike might be slightly lighter and faster but will be more expensive and titanium will be a lot more expensive.

Things would be different if hydroforming didn't exist. Modern production methods let builders make alloy frames that are lighter than they used to be yet perform much better. Alloy is not the poor cousin by any stretch. It's a perfectly reasonable and good choice for a lot of riders.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Mr Pig said:


> I think that's true to an extent, people will buy what's in the shops, but once you get away from the bottom of the barrel and into 'real' bike territory, alloy does win. It still offers the best mix of performance and price, which is why the majority of bikes are still made of it. A steel bike is going to be heavier, slower and more expensive. Generally speaking. A carbon bike might be slightly lighter and faster but will be more expensive and titanium will be a lot more expensive.


A "real" bike is what we enthusiasts want. Aunt Sally and uncle Ned up the street got mountain bikes for tooling around the park bike path on sunny days, and they don't know or care.

Alloy is the most ubiquitous material because it's more affordable. The key word in my earlier statement (and why I italicized it) is "want." Do you _want_ to drive a Toyota or a Porsche? More people buy Toyotas because it's in their price range but which would you choose if money wasn't a factor?

[Waiting for the "Toyota 4 Life" crew to chime in].


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Nat said:


> A "real" bike is what we enthusiasts want. Aunt Sally and uncle Ned up the street got mountain bikes for tooling around the park bike path on sunny days, and they don't know or care.
> 
> Alloy is the most ubiquitous material because it's more affordable. The key word in my earlier statement (and why I italicized it) is "want." Do you _want_ to drive a Toyota or a Porsche? More people buy Toyotas because it's in their price range but which would you choose if money wasn't a factor?
> 
> [Waiting for the "Toyota 4 Life" crew to chime in].


I'd drive both.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Mr Pig said:


> Efficiency:
> 
> For me this is quite a big deal. Virtually all steel frames are made out of round tubes with the main difference being the quality of the steel. Alloy can be hydroformed and made into shapes which suit the job in hand. If you look at a good alloy frame you'll see all kinds of bends and variations in tube thickness on different parts of the frame.
> 
> *The result of this is that alloy frames generally turn your effort into forward motion much more effectively than steel ones do.* It's very noticable.


Do you have any data to back up these claims?



gfourth said:


> I used to think this way also... until I rode one. Your fork and shock only work in a few dimensions, tires and pressure only do so much- there is still a lot of feedback being transmitted to the rider. *A steel FS is a f-n treat to ride*. Ultimate traction. Sure everyone says they can achieve the same compliance with alu or CF but I've yet to see a frame designed and marketed and such. It's a shame everyone buys into the lighter and stiffer mentality.


What steel full suspension bikes do you have experience with? There's only a couple options that I know of aside from custom. I've had my eye on a Starling Beady Little Eye for a while now, also like the Cotic FlareMax. Something short/mid travel, 110-125mm in the rear.



Vader said:


> I think flex is the wrong word. I like to use the word, "give". I had two identical full suspension frames. Both were custom six inch frames. One had a True Temper steel front triangle, the other with a 7005 Al front triangle. The Al front triangle was six ounces lighter and stiffer, but the steel frame could be led into turns that the Al frame couldn't. It's hard to put into words but the steel frame felt faster and got through sections quicker


Interesting. Who was the frame builder(s)?

I've been full suspension steel frame curious for a while. Love hearing stories of guys enjoying these bikes!


----------



## Driverfound337 (Sep 1, 2008)

I have owned 5 steel rigid bikes and 1 aluminum with carbon fork, yeah steel rides different, but I will take the lighter aluminum/carbon forked bike every time


----------



## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

Steel provides a better ride, comparatively. It is heavier but you adapt quickly if you ride often. I would only avoid steel if I lived in a moist/wet/humid environment. Most reputable steel frame manufacturers treat their steel frames with anti-rust agents and it is available to purchase separately. Steel is compliant. It absorbs trail chatter and bigger hits nicely.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> I think that GCN vid is onto something. They mentioned something about new bikes liking to be sit-and-spin types of bikes.


You must have watched a different video, maybe I linked the wrong one? The conclusion was that frame flex might not be a detriment to efficiency, they didn't say flex was beneficial.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Do you have any data to back up these claims?


Yes. I went straight from being the first to the top of the hill to the last when I went from an alloy hard-tail to a steel one ;0) Seriously, who has empirical data on these things? I do know that I noticed the drop is speed instantly. I was aware that I was going slower than before for a given amount of effort and this feeling was confirmed when riding with others.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> Yes. I went straight from being the first to the top of the hill to the last when I went from an alloy hard-tail to a steel one ;0)


That doesn't mean that steel was responsible for your slowness, lots of factors influence performance besides frame material. Your alloy bike probably just weighed less.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> That doesn't mean that steel was responsible for your slowness, lots of factors influence performance besides frame material. Your alloy bike probably just weighed less.


It's not my fault you don't like my opinion. I know why the bike was slower. It was the frame. You can believe what you like, I don't care.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> It's not my fault you don't like my opinion. I know why the bike was slower. It was the frame. You can believe what you like, I don't care.


I don't dislike your opinion, I just disagree. Without controlled experiments it's impossible to know that frame material alone is responsible for the disparity. IMO.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> Without controlled experiments it's impossible to know that frame material alone is responsible for the disparity.


Whatever.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

sgltrak said:


> Steel is easier to repair than aluminum when a frame is cracked or broken. Steel is also easier to straighten or cold set as needed when out of alignment. These are two reasons steel is the choice of many touring cyclists, especially when traveling to more remote locations in which a broken aluminum or carbon bike would end the tour, but a local welder might be able to make repairs that would allow a steel bike owner to continue. Also, it is easier to add additional water bottle and rack braze-ons to a steel frame than to most other materials, so you can customize your frame to your specific use and carrying needs.
> 
> The frame material can affect ride quality to a degree, but geometry, componentry, tires and tire pressure, frame construction and design, type of tubing, butting within the tubing, etc can also have an effect, so I wouldn't base a steel frame purchase solely on the purported ride quality differences without riding the specific frame you have in mind and determining the ride quality really is as expected.
> 
> Of the steel mtb frames I've owned, the Tange Prestige, Ritchey Logic Prestige, Tange Ultralight, and Reynolds 853 frames have been my favorites. I didn't care as much for the 4130 frames I had. I have ridden some nice Tru-Temper frames as well, but don't know their tube sets well enough to know which ones I rode.


It's very true that frame construction and design affect the end result. When I was shopping for bikes last year (prior to purchasing a Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead frame to build up), I test rode a Santa Cruz Chameleon. That's an aluminum frame with a very nice ride quality. I might have bought one, but it lacked some details that I wanted in a frame. No question it rode nice, though. Even though the Pedalhead is a steel frame, it's a firmer frame. I wouldn't say it's harsh like cheap aluminum, though. It's a rowdier bike, so I'd expect a different ride than a light, xc frame built of steel. I'm trying to offset that some with 2.6 tires.


----------



## fokof (Apr 24, 2006)

IMHO it is impossible to compare frames without the exact same components and pressure.

I have a carbon road frame and an aluminium SS/non fixie road aluminium bike (CAAD10)
The Cannondale is more comfy than my carbon frame , impossible to know if it's the frame , I don't have the same tires , saddle , handlebar etc....

And to compare my aluminium fat bike and my Ti MTB is also impossible because one has 4.8 tires and the other 2.4


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I'd drive both.


Haha! That's a perfect response.


----------



## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Juancts said:


> Been thinking about getting a new bike for light trails and maybe some touring. Some of the bikes I've found online are steel bikes.
> 
> I have a Trek Marlin 29er, so I know the benefits of aluminum (lightweight and no rust). Steel rusts and is heavy. I wonder what are the benefits of steel in 2019 ???


Search for a Kona or Waterford (Gunnar) dealer for a good chance of trying late model steel, and add Canfield plus Guerrilla Gravity to the search. Also look for Raleigh and Jamis who've had steel bikes in the lineup.

Really think about your bike engine as a big part of what's better. While I have a fantastic plastic top shelf trail bike I also have a steel Honzo with modest parts and still ride my 1960s - early 90s steel bikes. The bike doesn't make that much difference when my bike engine's working well.

Water has not yet killed or really harmed my 30 to almost 60 year old steel bikes. The 2014 Honzo has had a whole lot of never baby it use and a recent refresh was a reminder of how nice a threaded steel frame can be.

For light trails or maybe touring you might want the drop bar category where there are many fine and affordable steel bikes. Again Kona's there but also Salsa, QBP's brands, Breezer, and more. Bikes like Fargos, Sutra Ltd, Vaya, Rove ST with 40 - 50 mm wide tires are great. We love our trail bikes but so do we love leaving the driveway for a mix of all surfaces including some trails. Same bikes serve as wonderful commuters.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

My lightest bike is a Richey Logic tubed steel hardtail. Geared and rigid fork, weight in the low 20's. Frame is somewhere in the 3lb range.

I also have a custom steel 5x5 FS bike and it's a hoot. Can't swear it's frame material, but it's probably my most solid feeling and quiet-riding bike.


----------



## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Do you have any data to back up these claims?
> 
> What steel full suspension bikes do you have experience with? There's only a couple options that I know of aside from custom. I've had my eye on a Starling Beady Little Eye for a while now, also like the Cotic FlareMax. Something short/mid travel, 110-125mm in the rear.
> 
> ...


I was racing Super D , Enduro and events like Downiville and knew that tall short long travel bikes sucked. I had Doug at Curtlo build me a long low and slack frame in 05. It arrived a year later. The frame was destroyed in a head on with a dirt bike and I had Ventana build me a new front triangle with the same geo numbers except for a 13.1 BB. That was in 09. The rear triangle on both of these bikes is the same.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Interesting! Thanks for the info.


----------



## zerodish (Jun 17, 2006)

Steel will take a lot more abuse than aluminum. 4130 steel is fairly rust proof. I put 100000 miles on my Mongoose Hilltopper. My Canondale touring bike lasted 10000 miles.

__
https://flic.kr/p/SmB25M


----------



## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

Steel rules! At least for hardtails it does. The ride quality, lifetime durability and knowing the frame can be repaired are the big pluses for me. I've had many aluminum frames and am not fan of the stiff ride quality and the real possibility of the frame eventually failing. 

As for rusting, I've got 3 steel bikes (fat, gravel and 29er hardtail) and haven't had much issues with rust. I did strip the paint off a one of my frames and got a small amount of rust but that was my fault as I didn't prime the frame properly before painting. It was an easy fix with a little sand paper and Rust-o-leum. 

2 of my frames have the inside of the tubes coated with the same anti-rust material that is used on steel car frames. I trust that will last as long as I'm able to ride. 

I won't pretend steel is light. All my steel bikes are kinda portly.


----------



## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

I have ridden Aluminium, Steel and carbon HT bikes. 

Aluminium can be compliant and comfortable or harsh and stiff. I can also noodly and very efficent. However stiff and efficent and comfortable are very hard to combine. 

Carbon can almost anything and good carbon will be light, stiff and comfortable. However good steel is special. There is a way the rides that not harsh, but springy in a good way. Not total damped like carbon, but lively. Good steel will take bump, absorb and gentle return is energy to "spring" you forward. Not a sharp sting (like aluminium) and not a dead thud (like carbon). It is a unique feeling that has to be ridden to be felt. Side by Side my Carbon 29er HT frame was lighter and slightly stiffer than my Steel Frame. The steel was 1.5lbs more at least, but had a sweet feel. I'd bet carbon is "faster", but steel is just fun to ride.


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

What material is typically used to make springs? And why?


----------



## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Who's making "higher end", off the shelf steel HT frames currently?


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Curveball said:


> What material is typically used to make springs? And why?


I got this one... Air, cuz light, cheap, and adjustable!


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Miker J said:


> Who's making "higher end", off the shelf steel HT frames currently?


I'm going to throw Chromag out there. Especially the Mike Truelove Primer.

Chromag Bikes - Chromag Primer 29" / 27.5"

Maybe not quite as boutique-y as some of the other super niche companies, but that Primer is a bike I would love to own.


----------



## nauc (Sep 9, 2009)

go demo this 29er in Al. /thread 

https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/chameleon


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Miker J said:


> Who's making "higher end", off the shelf steel HT frames currently?


Guerrilla Gravity. Niner. Kona. Chromag. Some Euro brands.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Harold said:


> Guerrilla Gravity. Niner. Kona. Chromag. Some Euro brands.


Good to hear because I just picked up a steel Honzo. I didn't include Kona in my response because I suspect that the steel tubing Kona uses is not at the same level as the tubing Chromag uses. But maybe it is. Hopefully it it is...


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Good to hear because I just picked up a steel Honzo. I didn't include Kona in my response because I suspect that the steel tubing Kona uses is not at the same level as the tubing Chromag uses. But maybe it is. Hopefully it it is...


Depends. Some of their bikes use "Kona Chromoly" which is a bit of a mystery. With a frame only price of $550 it's certainly not "high end." They also state it's "butted" not double butted. I also know two guys that weighed their Honzo ST frames, big mistake. It's heavy but durable and cheap. Not a bad combination. I actually have a frame on order for this spring.

Kona also uses other tube sets. The Unit gets Reynolds 520, a well known 4130. Their high end stuff is Reynolds 853 but they only offer that tubing on the Rove ST gravel bike currently. They've used 853 on other frames in the past.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

For reference: Stanton Bikes uses high end tubing (Reynolds 631/853) for their frames but they're no lightweight XC frames. They're quite Trail/AM oriented hardtails and pretty beefy from what I understand. 

There's a lot of variables. Generally speaking double butted tubing indicates at least a decent tube set. Some frames even use triple butted tubes but those seem to be fewer now a days.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Depends. Some of their bikes use "Kona Chromoly" which is a bit of a mystery. With a frame only price of $550 it's certainly not "high end." They also state it's "butted" not double butted. I also know two guys that weighed their Honzo ST frames, big mistake. It's heavy but durable and cheap. Not a bad combination. I actually have a frame on order for this spring.
> 
> Kona also uses other tube sets. The Unit gets Reynolds 520, a well known 4130. Their high end stuff is Reynolds 853 but they only offer that tubing on the Rove ST gravel bike currently. They've used 853 on other frames in the past.


No doubt everybody who uses steel chooses alloys that fulfill the goals they have for the specific bike they're making. Of all the bikes Kona makes out of steel, for example, they've all got slightly different intended uses.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Harold said:


> No doubt everybody who uses steel chooses alloys that fulfill the goals they have for the specific bike they're making. Of all the bikes Kona makes out of steel, for example, they've all got slightly different intended uses.


Yup. Heavy and durable doesn't necessarily mean it rides poorly though. I've owned (still do) plenty of heavy-ish steel frames that ride like butter. It's cool that Kona has taken the time/effort to consider this on the Honzo Steel frame. Check out the crimp on the seat stays of the current frame.

KONA BIKES | MTB | HONZO | Honzo ST


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

My incoming FS frame has 1.1/0.9/1.1 wall thickness 31.8mm TT, 34.9 DT, 33.1 ST. I do wonder if it's going to ride differently than 9/6/9 or 8/5/8 tubesets in the same diameter. My builder had only had 38.1 unbutted tubing in 1.2 unbutted, so didn't have much choice (besides 34.9 in 1.5/0.9/1.5). Does the thinner wall stuff have noticeably more flexibility/springiness? Does the thicker wall stuff suffer from less vibration?

Tubeset choice is fascinating to me. There's an image on this review that shows all the tube diameters: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/starling-murmur-review.html
- "mix of Reynolds 853 and 631, with a selection of Columbus Life and Zona steel tubing"
- 46.2 HT (44ID), 31.75 TT, 38.1 DT, 34.1 ST

Read somewhere that 0.4mm is the limit at which the tubing risks collapsing on itself. Does a stronger material at 0.5mm resist dents more, due to higher yield strength?


----------



## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

*OneSpeed* said:


> No frame material is perfect for every application, unless you're me, then steel is the best frame material every time.


And, for everyone.


----------



## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

OK, 'nuff said.


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

*OneSpeed* said:


> No frame material is perfect for every application, unless you're me, then steel is the best frame material every time.





jcd46 said:


> I'm in too!


same here....


----------



## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Hawgzilla said:


> OK, 'nuff said.


That is a cool head badge!


----------



## J-Bone (Aug 26, 2008)

Hawgzilla said:


> OK, 'nuff said.


I love mine.


----------



## J-Bone (Aug 26, 2008)

My steel bike is a Vassago Verhauen 29r non-boost. Its a 2013 and bought it new. 
Built with 
Niner RDO carbon fork
Easton carbon bars
Thomson stem
carbon post
1x10 Race Face turbine cinch
XT der
XT brakes

Keep in mind I have had this bike for 6plus years and didn't buy all of the parts on the same day. 

Rolls in at 22-ish pounds. 

Its straight-lightning fast-crushes bumps and climbs like a goat. I have ridden aluminum since 90 when I bought my first trek mtb. I wasn't a believer until i threw a leg over and rode it. I don't foresee getting a new bike anytime soon. Infant. I am picking it up from the paint shop tomorrow. 12000 miles a bike gets s scratch or 2. Oh yeah. NO RUST. But some rash.


----------



## BurkC (Sep 15, 2008)

Miker J said:


> Who's making "higher end", off the shelf steel HT frames currently?


Salsa

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Niner SIR9 is made with 853. For a mass produced bike, it has some high quality touches like the hollow chainstay yoke and clean dropper cable exit port.








- too bad it's PF30 (for EBB compatibility)


----------



## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Waltworks custom steel frames are awesome. Next one is getting a sterling silver head badge.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Depends. Some of their bikes use "Kona Chromoly" which is a bit of a mystery. With a frame only price of $550 it's certainly not "high end." They also state it's "butted" not double butted. I also know two guys that weighed their Honzo ST frames, big mistake. It's heavy but durable and cheap. Not a bad combination. I actually have a frame on order for this spring.
> 
> Kona also uses other tube sets. The Unit gets Reynolds 520, a well known 4130. Their high end stuff is Reynolds 853 but they only offer that tubing on the Rove ST gravel bike currently. They've used 853 on other frames in the past.


I have had a number of steel Konas over the years. As with the Unit, my Paddy Wagon is Reynolds 520 Butted Cromoly. And oh my goodness is it silky smooth (as you know).

This one, however, which is my latest purchase, is the only one in which I have no idea what kind of steel they used for the frame:









And yup. It weighs more than my FS, which is FAR from weight weenie with the 36 fork and Minion rubber:









I am retiring my 2008 Fire Mountain this year which will have served me loyally for 12 full years of winter commuting duties. I intend to replace it with a Unit. Time to put the rust issue to the test...


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Sweet Honzo. How long is the fork? I'm thinking of going 140mm. 

The two best things you can do for a steel commuter is Frame Saver/Fluid Film/whatever the inside, and carnauba car wax on the outside. Plus grease in all the right places of course. When it gets salty rinse it off the best you can. 

I ran my Surly Wednesday through the salt regularly for 3 seasons and never developed any rust issues. My thought is if you didn't have any corrosion issues with the aluminum frame and components you'll be just fine with a steel one.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Sweet Honzo. How long is the fork? I'm thinking of going 140mm.
> 
> The two best things you can do for a steel commuter is Frame Saver/Fluid Film/whatever the inside, and carnauba car wax on the outside. Plus grease in all the right places of course. When it gets salty rinse it off the best you can.
> 
> I ran my Surly Wednesday through the salt regularly for 3 seasons and never developed any rust issues. My thought is if you didn't have any corrosion issues with the aluminum frame and components you'll be just fine with a steel one.


Thanks. I went with 140. I toyed with the idea of running a 36 at 140 but I went with a 34 instead just in case I want to try the factory spec at 120.

I had continual problems with my winter commuter. I had to replace lots of metal components that had literally disintegrated, including the fork and two rear mech disc calipers. Tough to wash regularly when it's minus a thousand out. And still way ahead cost wise when parking downtown is $550 a month.

I haven't rustproofed the frame of that Honzo. I probably should have when it was stripped...


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

I really want a 36 on a hardtail, it's just badass. But, I already have a nice Fox 34 Factory I'm not using. 

A heated hose is ideal, but a couple of milk jugs with warm water (even room temperature) work well too. My LBS has an indoor bike wash station which is awesome but I don't get over there too often just to wash bikes.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jamis Dragon series uses double butted Reynolds. 

Nice bikes at a fair price IMO.


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> Jamis Dragon series uses double butted Reynolds.
> 
> Nice bikes at a fair price IMO.


I am happy with mine. I picked it up used last May and have about 900 miles on it so far. I paid less for the complete bike than what I would pay for a used Niner ROS9 frame with the same tubing.


----------



## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I'm going to throw Chromag out there. Especially the Mike Truelove Primer.
> 
> Chromag Bikes - Chromag Primer 29" / 27.5"
> 
> Maybe not quite as boutique-y as some of the other super niche companies, but that Primer is a bike I would love to own.


I picked up a Chromag Surface a couple seasons ago and it is a beautifully made bike. Not to mention it absolutely rips on the trails.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

*OneSpeed* said:


> I really want a 36 on a hardtail, it's just badass. But, I already have a nice Fox 34 Factory I'm not using.


Here's my steel HT, Ribbon 140 up front.


IMG_20181214_230404_206 by Nate, on Flickr

Next step in the build is to get these assembled. Taking a wheelbuilding class in a week and a half.


0226191747~2 by Nate, on Flickr


----------



## DaveRider (Jul 14, 2014)

If you do get a steel bike, please don't go around saying, "Steel is real! Steel is real!" Those people are obnoxious.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Harold said:


> Here's my steel HT, Ribbon 140 up front.


^ :thumbsup:

Wheel building is fun, and a cool skill to possess.


----------



## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Harold said:


> Here's my steel HT, Ribbon 140 up front.
> 
> 
> IMG_20181214_230404_206 by Nate, on Flickr
> ...


Nice. Is the Ribbon coil or air? I may go with MRP coil front and rear on my GG when I order it, or Rock Shox on each end tuned by Vorsprung or Avy.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Vader said:


> Nice. Is the Ribbon coil or air? I may go with MRP coil front and rear on my GG when I order it, or Rock Shox on each end tuned by Vorsprung or Avy.


Easy way to tell is that coil doesn't have a Ramp Control top cap (it's at the bottom of the leg).

I'm optimistic seeing the open cartridge styles of dampers, like the GRIP and PCS (like Ava in a way, minus the fancy internals like hydraulic bottom out). Also optimistic seeing the new trend of air springs becoming even more coil-like air springs, like the 19 debonair, and the luftkappe upgrades for fox and '14-18 rockshox. At least for my desires/values...

I was considering coil, reasoning with myself to not really care about weight, but think I'm fine on air considering how far they've come. Not really an expense I'm too willing to make; more of a curiosity to me at this point.


----------



## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

ninjichor said:


> Easy way to tell is that coil doesn't have a Ramp Control top cap (it's at the bottom of the leg).
> 
> I'm optimistic seeing the open cartridge styles of dampers, like the GRIP and PCS (like Ava in a way, minus the fancy internals like hydraulic bottom out). Also optimistic seeing the new trend of air springs becoming even more coil-like air springs, like the 19 debonair, and the luftkappe upgrades for fox and '14-18 rockshox. At least for my desires/values...
> 
> I was considering coil, reasoning with myself to not really care about weight, but think I'm fine on air considering how far they've come. Not really an expense I'm too willing to make; more of a curiosity to me at this point.


I've been on coil front and rear since 97. I've never owned a air shock, or fork. Back then shocks sucked until RCR(Romic), then Push modded Fox Vanillas, then Avy. Later on I tried Push's DHX with the MX tune which was krap, then the CCDB. For forks, it was always Marzocchi, experimenting with oil heights and weights, and mixing and matching springs. Then came Zoke's RC3 Ti series(I was hoping the new Z1 was going to be this). If these new fork offerings feel like that fork, I'll be a happy man. All the new coil forks look very clean in execution and I'm excited.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Vader said:


> Nice. Is the Ribbon coil or air? I may go with MRP coil front and rear on my GG when I order it, or Rock Shox on each end tuned by Vorsprung or Avy.


Mine is air. Chosen based on conversations with MRP staff about my intent for the bike.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


----------



## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

DaveRider said:


> If you do get a steel bike, please don't go around saying, "Steel is real! Steel is real!" Those people are obnoxious.


Steel is not fake, it is real, I bought a steel bike just so I can use that phrase and I won't let you take that away from me.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Train Wreck said:


> Steel is not fake, it is real...


So Aluminium frames are fake?


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

"Steel is real" and "carbon is..."

Hmmm. I can't think of any word that rhymes with "carbon."


----------



## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

Mr Pig said:


> So Aluminium frames are fake?


Is that what you believe? I never said anything about aluminum


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Nat said:


> "Steel is real" and "carbon is..."
> 
> Hmmm. I can't think of any word that rhymes with "carbon."


Overrated?


----------



## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Vader said:


> Nice. Is the Ribbon coil or air? I may go with MRP coil front and rear on my GG when I order it, or Rock Shox on each end tuned by Vorsprung or Avy.


I have a Ribbon coil on my GG and it is beyond awesome. It just eats up the chunk like it's not even there.


----------



## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

To me riding steel has a different feeling to it. Not harsh like you feel with some aluminum frames but more of a "warmth" that is somewhat hard to explain. Never had any hand fatigue or anything like that when I rode my old steel hardtail but that was more XC oriented (80-100mm front geo) so when I started riding more aggressive terrain I quickly found the limits of the bike. Now she has been turned into a gravel grinder/commuter bike but still a blast to ride.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

gregnash said:


> To me riding steel has a different feeling to it. Not harsh like you feel with some aluminum frames but more of a "warmth" that is somewhat hard to explain.


Warmth is a nice way to put it, I like that.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Overrated?


Doesn't rhyme.


----------



## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> Doesn't rhyme.


I think the point is that the only reason people say steel is real is that it does rhyme. Steel isn't any more 'real' than any other bicycle frame material. It's just one of a number of reasonable options.


----------



## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> Doesn't rhyme.


But accurate?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

jcd46 said:


> But accurate?


No, but I suppose that's subjective.


----------



## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> No, but I suppose that's subjective.


True, I was mostly kidding since I've never ridden carbon, and probably never will. I will never need that light of a bike.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

My kid's carbon mtb weights more than 2 of my steel mtbs and one of my AL mtbs do.

There's a lot more to weight than frame material.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

And there's a lot more to frame quality and characteristics than frame material.

A stiff, strong, smooth riding frame is nice no matter what the material, the fact that mine is only about 1,000 grams is a bonus. Aside from the cost carbon is pretty sweet.


----------



## stixxs (Mar 12, 2018)

Guy I work with has a steel Waterford. The bike is the lightest I have ever felt.

I come from a bmx background so 4130 was always the best choice. When I got my first mtb it was aluminum and to be honest, I was a pretty hesitant on it for a long time.


----------



## twodownzero (Dec 27, 2017)

Steel might be "heavy" but you don't need as much of it. If it were up to me, there would be no such thing as an aluminum bicycle.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

jcd46 said:


> I've never ridden carbon, and probably never will. I will never need that light of a bike.


That's like saying, "I will never need food that delicious therefore I won't even try it" or "I will never need that beautiful of a view therefore I won't even look."


----------



## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Nat said:


> That's like saying, "I will never need food that delicious therefore I won't even try it" or "I will never need that beautiful of a view therefore I won't even look."


lol - I didn't say I wouldn't try it, but between cost and the fact I don't race, I don't see the need for my personal use. Plus I love steel, so no need to change that.


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

I just remember test riding aluminum bikes, and feeling like I was not connected to the ground the way I am with steel...it felt sort of impersonal I guess...

and like stixxs, I grew up on BMX 4130 for so long that I just can't get past the feel of steel on all fronts. 

I haven't tried carbon for the same reasons that jcd46 mentioned. i do know - and this has NOTHING to do with bikes I am sure - that I hate the carbon fiber hockey sticks that are out now because they are too light, and have no substance to them in my hands. I can only assume that in some ways, that is how a carbon bike would feel to me....

do they even make a carbon MTB that would be rigid? <- I don't know cause I never live in that world...
give me steel for bikes, and good old lumber for hockey sticks!!


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Nat said:


> That's like saying, "I will never need food that delicious therefore I won't even try it" or "I will never need that beautiful of a view therefore I won't even look."


No, that's like saying "I am sure a $10,000 bottle of champagne is lovely, but I'll probably never drink any." Some people who can't pull massive sums of money out of their ass are OK with not taking out a loan to afford a bicycle made from expensive, environmentally intensive materials.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mack_turtle said:


> Some people who can't pull massive sums of money out of their ass are OK with not taking out a loan to afford a bicycle made from expensive, environmentally intensive materials.


Bamboo bikes are even more environmentally friendly.


----------



## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Curveball said:


> I have a Ribbon coil on my GG and it is beyond awesome. It just eats up the chunk like it's not even there.


I'd like to hear GG alu vs carbon. GG was one of the reasons to go alu.

I imagine it might go like this again: https://nsmb.com/articles/duelling-knolly-wardens-final-verdicts/


----------



## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

twodownzero said:


> Steel might be "heavy" but you don't need as much of it. If it were up to me, there would be no such thing as an aluminum bicycle.


Better tubing helps these days, but 30 years ago it was near impossible to build a steel road bike that was as stiff as a Klein aluminum. Stiff wasn't for everybody, but for a Clyde like me, the ride of the Klein's I owned were superior to anything I've owned, steel, titanium, until the current carbon I ride. The Klein's were as good an aluminum as you could get and a great riding bike.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Mr Pig said:


> I think the point is that the only reason people say steel is real is that it does rhyme. Steel isn't any more 'real' than any other bicycle frame material. It's just one of a number of reasonable options.


Holy crap Pig. It's not that other materials aren't real it's just that steel is real steel, jeez!


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Steel's the real deal?

Steel has lots of appeal?

Steel's what I wanna wheel?

Steel is real – ly a great riding bike frame material.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

chazpat said:


> Steel's what I wanna wheel?


I like this one


----------



## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Ferrous no embarrass.


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

golly I like 4130 Chromoly


----------



## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

Chromosexual


----------



## stixxs (Mar 12, 2018)

sXeXBMXer said:


> I just remember test riding aluminum bikes, and feeling like I was not connected to the ground the way I am with steel...it felt sort of impersonal I guess...
> 
> and like stixxs, I grew up on BMX 4130 for so long that I just can't get past the feel of steel on all fronts.
> 
> ...


Funny you mentioned hockey sticks. I play hockey and have used wood and todays composite sticks. In the 90's the even made them from aluminum but that trend didn't stick around.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

sXeXBMXer said:


> I hate the carbon fiber hockey sticks that are out now because they are too light, and have no substance to them in my hands. I can only assume that in some ways, that is how a carbon bike would feel to me....
> 
> do they even make a carbon MTB that would be rigid?


I've never heard of anyone complaining about their bike being too light but I suppose maybe it's happened.

Do you mean a rigid bike as in no suspension? Plenty of those, and carbon frames can be built to be supremely stiff/ rigid.


----------



## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

the one ring said:


> Chromosexual


Lol! I've been thinking of a new user name..love it!


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

stixxs said:


> Funny you mentioned hockey sticks. I play hockey and have used wood and todays composite sticks. In the 90's the even made them from aluminum but that trend didn't stick around.


I never got into the aluminum ones either. I used the Sherwood Paul Coffey model for years and years. They are hard to find any more. We even have a Perani's here in town and they don't regularly carry them.



J.B. Weld said:


> I've never heard of anyone complaining about their bike being too light but I suppose maybe it's happened.
> 
> Do you mean a rigid bike as in no suspension? Plenty of those, and carbon frames can be built to be supremely stiff/ rigid.


not so much the bike being light, but being "substantial", I guess while i ride it...

yeah...no suspension. I figured there were ,but i really have never delved into the world carbon fiber


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

digging up an old thread that has not had any traffic in a long time is considered a bad practice unless you have something new to add or ask. your post didn't ask any specific question or add any new information, just a plug for your website. threads that have more interest naturally move to the top of the list. it is allowed but it is annoying and rude. you won't make any friends when you do this, and you might get banned.

using this forum to post links to your commercial website, especially in this way, is misleading. if you want to advertise your services, pay for an ad to support this website.


----------



## asmsayem (May 19, 2020)

Hi Mack, I appreciate your thoughts, and thank you for your suggestions as well. Obviously you are one of the PRO on this platform and know more than me but I think calling someone spammer without knowing is also bad practice. I hope you don't mind. I am a new member of this platform and writing on my blog so my intention was to share my article that's it. Moreover, I didn't notice that this thread is very old. I will delete this and if you have some time would love to get your feedback about my blog. Thanks


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

apparently a moderator agreed with me because your previous posts were deleted. time to give up.

here's what you ought to do: start a new thread and say up front that you are writing a blog and you'd like feedback. the way you did it before felt like you were trying to sneak it in, as if you had new information to share.


----------



## asmsayem (May 19, 2020)

Thank you very much Mack. I really appreciate your suggestions and criticism and I was really impatient and I agree with all the things that you have said and really appreciate my friend. I hope you don't heart in my words. I will do this what you have just said. Thank you again Mack.


----------



## brownplus (Mar 31, 2005)

*not enough rubber yet!*

rode steel for 30+ years and depending on how its put together, beats almost anything. with fat tires now I have alu and hard to tell difference except my slu climbs like a boss....its geared...my SS is and always will be steel for the (flow) it gives.


----------



## DragonStyle (Nov 11, 2013)

Lone Rager said:


> The differences in ride quality between steel, aluminum and carbon stand out on bikes with skinny high pressure tires, like traditional road bikes. The fatter the tires and lower the tire pressure, the less difference frame material makes to ride quality. Add suspension and it's nill, IMO. Eight years ago I still had steel, aluminum and CF road bikes and an al FS mtb. Now I just have CF road bikes and al and CF FS mtbs. I'll stick with CF on the road bikes but am completely happy with al mtbs.
> 
> Agree that corrosion with a good steel bike is not really an issue. High quality finishes and internal anti rust treatment basically solve that. You can do an internal anti rust treatment yourself if the bike doesn't come treated.


Disagree with this. Have owned about 4, aluminum hardtails, and 4 steel hardtails. All of the steel hardtails are smoother, and I can get into a flow with them, on trails. That doesn't happen, getting rattled around, on an Al frame. The steel frames, are simply less harsh, regardless of other factors. They soak up bumps and vibrations, much better. Also, steel can be _very _fast, with the high-end stuff, and good geometry. Shiiet, my 94 GT Bravado LE, and 2005 Jamis Dragon Team, are _very_ quick sprinters, with great handling. Love steel frames, the best material imho.

It is true, larger diameter tires, and lower psi numbers, do help. Nevertheless, a harsh frame, is gonna be a harsh frame, at the end of the day. This is magnified, on hardtails, since they can be unforgiving. Even small vibrations will start to add up, especially on 2 hour+ rides. Hence, why I sold my 96 GT Zaskar, and 98 Stumpjumper. They would kick my azz, (especially my neck). Got rattled around too much, screw that. Kept a 2003 Specialized Rockhopper, that frame doesn't bother me as much, for some reason, (adore that bike).


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

I think there are so many other variables in play that frame material alone is not as important as it is made out to be. I currently have 3 hardtails (steel, aluminum, carbon) set up nearly identically and with the same geometry, and if there is a difference in ride quality at all between them, it is negligible at best.
I've had great mountain bikes made from 4130, Prestige, Logic Prestige, 853, etc over the past 35 years, but I don't mind a decent aluminum bike.
I found this video about frame material ride comfort interesting:


----------



## Driverfound337 (Sep 1, 2008)

On a rigid fork there is a “feel” difference from steel to aluminum, just a little nicer “feeling” on the trail, not convinced it rides easier or faster though.


----------



## DragonStyle (Nov 11, 2013)

sgltrak said:


> I think there are so many other variables in play that frame material alone is not as important as it is made out to be. I currently have 3 hardtails (steel, aluminum, carbon) set up nearly identically and with the same geometry, and if there is a difference in ride quality at all between them, it is negligible at best.
> I've had great mountain bikes made from 4130, Prestige, Logic Prestige, 853, etc over the past 35 years, but I don't mind a decent aluminum bike.
> I found this video about frame material ride comfort interesting:


Good point, I realize, it is a big generalization, and very simplistic, to claim that: "A steel frame will ride this way", or "An aluminum frame will ride like this". That is making big generalizations. I'm just speaking from my experience, of over 15 years mountain biking. Maybe I have gotten, "the bad luck of the draw", with Al hardtails. Plus, I am attracted to "fast looking bikes". A red anodized Zaskar, and a yellow M2 Stumpjumper, lol. Plus, i used to buy them, without really testing them, from Craigslist, lol. They would look good, would look fast, the parts were working, and if they were ready to ride, I'd buy em. (Just riding up and down the parking lot, to make sure they work, lol). The Zaskar and the Stumpjumper, were both race, Al hardtails. Hence, there would be a good chance, that they could ride harsh.

It is true, there are much more complex, factors to this question. Physics, geometry, etc. For example, chainstay length, and chainstay design, can have a big effect, on the ride of a hardtail. The tube diameter of the frame, the thickness of the tubes, etc, etc. There is alot of complex physics going on. I mean, I wish I could understand, why my Al Rockhopper, is a softer ride than the GT Zaskar. But that would be a very long, complex answer, full of complex physics scenarios, and differential equations, lol. Will check out that video though, thx for the link.


----------



## odyofael (May 16, 2011)

Miker J said:


> Who's making "higher end", off the shelf steel HT frames currently?


Niner...Ritchey...many others.


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

DragonStyle said:


> It is true, there are much more complex, factors to this question. Physics, geometry, etc. For example, chainstay length, and chainstay design, can have a big effect, on the ride of a hardtail. The tube diameter of the frame, the thickness of the tubes, etc, etc. There is alot of complex physics going on. I mean, I wish I could understand, why my Al Rockhopper, is a softer ride than the GT Zaskar. But that would be a very long, complex answer, full of complex physics scenarios, and differential equations, lol. Will check out that video though, thx for the link.


I sold GT bikes new for several years and part of their claim to fame was being stiff, due primarily to their triple triangle construction. The smaller rear triangle is naturally going to flex less than a larger rear triangle while the additional material and attachment points of the seat stays just forward of the seat tube / top tube junction add rigidity to the main triangle.


----------



## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Hardtail Party has a decent vid


----------



## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Not surprised that sweeping generalizations don't hold up. Not all steel is compliant, not all aluminum is stiff, not all carbon does whatever carbon is supposed to do.
One that seems to stand: well designed and fabricated bikes are better


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Not surprised that sweeping generalizations don't hold up. Not all steel is compliant, not all aluminum is stiff, not all carbon does whatever carbon is supposed to do.
> One that seems to stand: well designed and fabricated bikes are better


Can you show me a "flexy" aluminum frame for example?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Can you show me a "flexy" aluminum frame for example?



Vitus.


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Can you show me a "flexy" aluminum frame for example?


I don't know of a good MTB example, but the older aluminum Vitus road frames were so noodly that they were kind of scary to ride.


----------



## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Miker J said:


> Who's making "higher end", off the shelf steel HT frames currently?


Chromag. Their Primer (among others) is handmade in Canada. It used to be welded by local legend Mike Truelove but I see that Chris Dekerf, also legendary, is now fabricating them.

As for steel v. aluminum, my much more modest Kona Honzo ST, Unit and Paddy Wagon fixed gear, all feel incredible. My 2004 Made in the USA C-Dale cross, on the other hand, is retina detaching in comparison. I am shocked at how rowdy I can get on my Honzo, without feeling the slightest bit beaten up. My Garmin doesn’t lie (when I compare times against my Druid). That Honzo is truly magical. I attribute it to the steel frame.


----------



## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Can you show me a "flexy" aluminum frame for example?


I was referring to the Hardtail Party vid I linked above, he went over several examples of aluminum frames with different levels of compliance. I don't have a specific example for you. My aluminum Specialized has a far stiffer feel than my aluminum Brodie, but I haven't spent much time with the Brodie yet.
Consider Spesh Chisel vs Fuse. Both aluminum frames, but one is FAR stiffer than the other.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Ah, one example and it's an old road bike. Yeah, we probably shouldn't make blanket statements about how aluminum can be made "compliant". 

My point is no aluminum frames ride like steel. Yes you can occasionally have an overbuilt steel frame that rides poorly, but all aluminum frames don't have that magic feeling of steel, ever.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

*OneSpeed* said:


> My point is no aluminum frames ride like steel. Yes you can occasionally have an overbuilt steel frame that rides poorly, but all aluminum frames don't have that magic feeling of steel, ever.




Magic is an illusion


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> Magic is an illusion


Personal preference is not.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Personal preference is not.



Absolutely!


----------



## OldSchoolMBer (May 25, 2013)

sgltrak said:


> I don't know of a good MTB example, but the older aluminum Vitus road frames were so noodly that they were kind of scary to ride.


Ha! I rode a Vitus 979 for years, had to brace your knee against the top tube to keep it from gettin squirrely on big descents


----------



## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Ah, one example and it's an old road bike. Yeah, we probably shouldn't make blanket statements about how aluminum can be made "compliant".
> 
> My point is no aluminum frames ride like steel. Yes you can occasionally have an overbuilt steel frame that rides poorly, but all aluminum frames don't have that magic feeling of steel, ever.


Respectfully disagree. Beautiful ride for a 240lb rolly polly in SS configuration. I knew it would break and it did. At the CS

Love steel. Could of went with Ti, but custom steel is sweet. Although, if COVID didn’t screw everything up I would of bought off the rack. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Ah, one example and it's an old road bike. Yeah, we probably shouldn't make blanket statements about how aluminum can be made "compliant".


I in my response provided two examples, one from personal experience (Spesh vs Brodie), one with two modern frames, with widely available comparisons online (Chisel vs Fuse). HP video provided examples of varying compliance within aluminum. But the one example you referenced is easily eliminable so I see why you only acknowledged that in order to maintain your point.
I don't see any reason why different design, manufacturing processes, and quality levels of aluminum wouldn't create different levels of stiffness, with some obviously being more compliant, and perhaps even eclipsing the "magic" of some steel frames.
My personal preference is steel, chromoly rider since the mid '90s, but the Brodie mentioned above is starting to change how rigidly I cling to the belief that steel is always going to be better.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

*OneSpeed* said:


> My point is no aluminum frames ride like steel. Yes you can occasionally have an overbuilt steel frame that rides poorly, but all aluminum frames don't have that magic feeling of steel, ever.


I love high grade steel, especially 853, as a frame material 
And I build more models of high grade steel bikes than anyone I know
and I can tell you a few things about my experience 

aluminum outsells steel 
steel outlasts aluminum 
aluminum is much cheaper than high grade steel
the quality of ride in steel is less noticeable as tires get wider or as suspension is added
steel is not a great choice for beach cruises or FS mountain bikes 
Weight penalty on steel is 200 to 400 grams 
Longevity penalty on aluminum is several decades 

I am glad we have 4 good options for frame materials; and that’s why I use all four; as they each have their place


----------



## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

I own a good quality alu trail ht. Triple butted front triangle and stays, lots of bends on the rear triangle. For about a week, while I was waiting for a hub part that had failed, I rode a friend's steel trail ht. This frame is specifically engineered to be compliant by flattened chainstays and such. 

Indeed on very familiar trails I noticed that my mate's bike rode smoother over planted rocks etc. The difference was small, but it was there. I thought "yes, that's what they're talking about!"

He was running Maxxis EXO tyres and I had Schwalbe Supergravity casings on mine. Some time passed, my own bike was usable again and it was time for new tyres. I got Maxxis Exo due to availability and guess what? My ht now felt very similar to my mate's compliant steel framed one. Casing stiffness/pliability defined the ride more than frame material.

My point is that yes, frame materials have certain characteristics but ride feel depends on many things.

That said I find steel hardtails visually very appealing.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

I am sure high grade steel will continue to be popular for ride quality and visual appeal

I have two 853 ATBs coming
one enduro / bike packing 29x3.0
and one super light more XC with 29x2.35

just wish I could get them sooner
this leadtime issue hits every level of bike


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

bikesdirect said:


> Longevity penalty on aluminum is several decades



Source?


----------



## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

OldSchoolMBer said:


> Ha! I rode a Vitus 979 for years, had to brace your knee against the top tube to keep it from gettin squirrely on big descents


On the other end of the spectrum were the early Cannondales that would detach your retinas if you rode over an expansion crack.


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

BadgerOne said:


> On the other end of the spectrum were the early Cannondales that would detach your retinas if you rode over an expansion crack.


Same with the early Kleins.


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Source?





> bikesdirect said:
> Longevity penalty on aluminum is several decades


Source?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

source is personal experience; 3 years in engineering dept of aluminum extrusion co.
plus 45 years in the bike biz
and over 1 million new bikes sold in assorted frame materials 

a steel frame will last decades longer than aluminum if both are used a good amount each year


----------



## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

bikesdirect said:


> enduro / bike packing 29x3.


I interested in seeing the geo and spec choices you made for a bike that you are trying to target to those two audiences.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

So how many decades do you all usually get out of aluminum bikes?


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> So how many decades do you all usually get out of aluminum bikes?


I would not count on much over a decade of heavy use out of aluminum
two decades would be way beyond expected is used daily like commuters do
I have seen heavy use high grade steel do over five decades
And I think ten is possible 

of course, most bike owners are not interested in their new bike lasting 30 or 40 or 50 years
this is just something for us geeks to talk about in theory


----------



## bikesdirect (Nov 7, 2006)

looks easy from here said:


> I interested in seeing the geo and spec choices you made for a bike that you are trying to target to those two audiences.


I am not looking at the drawings on the 853 bike packing / enduro model
but it should be close to this bike 





Save Up to 60% Off Plus FREE SHIP 48 STATES ON ALL BICYCLES FREE SHIP* Motobecane NEW TAZ3 Trail 29er PLUS NEW Boost 29er PLUS Mountain Bikes, Boost Mountain Bikes


Save Up to 60% Off Plus FREE SHIP 48 STATES ON ALL BICYCLES FREE SHIP* Motobecane NEW TAZ3 Trail 29er PLUS NEW Boost 29er PLUS Mountain Bikes, Boost Mountain Bikes



www.bikesdirect.com





we have had great success with the TAZ3 
But customers have ask for it in CF, Ti, and steel
Which I have all on order - and of course on the steel I picked 853

Ti and 853 will not be evaluated rear stays


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

bikesdirect said:


> I would not count on much over a decade of heavy use out of aluminum
> two decades would be way beyond expected is used daily like commuters do
> I have seen heavy use high grade steel do over five decades
> And I think ten is possible
> ...




Well I respectfully disagree. I think a modern quality aluminum frame could easily go a half century if it was well taken care of. I work on 20 y/o ones daily that have been thoroughly thrashed (ridden hard and put away wet) and the frames are still fine.

It depends on what you define as heavy use of course and also you're right about the fact that this conversation is irrelevant anyway because nobody really wants to hang onto their bikes for that long. I couldn't imagine having to ride a 50 year old relic instead of the rocket I have now


----------



## azimiut (Feb 21, 2014)

I have four bikes I ride regularly. Three are aluminum frame one is steel. The steel bike is a Specialized rockhopper from 1995 and never had an issue. I have no idea how many miles it has or how hard it has been ridden though. I cracked the chain stay on my GT gravel bike right next to the derailleur. That bike had 5k miles or more on it. I cracked the chain stay on my Cannondale scalpel right near the front pivot. That bike might have around 3k miles on it. So far my specialized road bike I have only had to replace the wheels. That bike has over 10k miles on it. Everything else has been the usual wearable parts not frame damage.


----------



## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

People are forgetting that compliance in an aluminum frame = fatigue cycles. Fatigue cycles = death at some point, and aluminum can withstand far less of them than steel. Let's be honest, most are going to last for decades anyway because they aren't going to be ridden regularly and/or abusively. I guess in the end facts are facts, but they may not be a part of our individual realities. If they are, though, steel looks better and better unless you like a failed frame as a good excuse to buy something new.


----------



## 93M500 (Nov 10, 2021)

Was thinking of getting a Ragley Blue PIg, will it feel heavy and sluggish, like trying to pedal a tank up a hill? I've always had aluminum, the blue pig weighs in at about 32 lbs.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

93M500 said:


> Was thinking of getting a Ragley Blue PIg, will it feel heavy and sluggish, like trying to pedal a tank up a hill? I've always had aluminum, the blue pig weighs in at about 32 lbs.


Aluminum sucks for a hardtail, hell yes you should get the Ragley!!!


----------



## 93M500 (Nov 10, 2021)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Aluminum sucks for a hardtail, hell yes you should get the Ragley!!!


Thanks for the encouragement!!


----------



## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

bikesdirect said:


> I am not looking at the drawings on the 853 bike packing / enduro model
> but it should be close to this bike
> 
> 
> ...


I think your definition of enduro might be different from the rest of the world's.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

looks easy from here said:


> I think your definition of enduro might be different from the rest of the world's.


I think you misunderstand, he's actually ahead of the curve. Enduro bike packing is a brand new category, he's an innovator.


----------



## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

I've been a steel guy for a long time, but I'm slowly coming over to aluminum. With tapered headtubes and big seat tubes and beefy tubes to account for new standards and riding styles, the flexy, springy steel bikes of my past seem pretty much gone. Modern steel frame just have to use too much steel to ride as well as they used to. At that point, I'm starting to see the benefit of saving weight and money by going with aluminum.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

seat_boy said:


> I've been a steel guy for a long time, but I'm slowly coming over to aluminum. With tapered headtubes and big seat tubes and beefy tubes to account for new standards and riding styles, the flexy, springy steel bikes of my past seem pretty much gone. Modern steel frame just have to use too much steel to ride as well as they used to. At that point, I'm starting to see the benefit of saving weight and money by going with aluminum.


As always, there are exceptions. I own multiple frames that are springy and also pretty beefy on a scale. I've said it before but the weight of a frame is not necessarily an indicator of how a frame will ride. 

The two frames that stand out in this category are my All-City Nature Boy Disc and my Kona Honzo ST. Neither is light and both ride like butter!


----------



## 93M500 (Nov 10, 2021)

*OneSpeed* said:


> As always, there are exceptions. I own multiple frames that are springy and also pretty beefy on a scale. I've said it before but the weight of a frame is not necessarily an indicator of how a frame will ride.
> 
> The two frames that stand out in this category are my All-City Nature Boy Disc and my Kona Honzo ST. Neither is light and both ride like butter!


So, what numbers are we considering "light", under 30 lbs.? There are some FS bikes that are pushing 35 lbs. The Ragley Blue Pig is 32 lbs. and is chromoly. I think 32 lbs. is very manageable on the trail, especially if your riding style is not high speed and aggressive.


----------



## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

93M500 said:


> So, what numbers are we considering "light", under 30 lbs.? There are some FS bikes that are pushing 35 lbs. The Ragley Blue Pig is 32 lbs. and is chromoly. I think 32 lbs. is very manageable on the trail, especially if your riding style is not high speed and aggressive.


I'm not talking about the weight of a complete bike, I'm talking about just the frame and the resulting ride compliance.


----------



## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

seat_boy said:


> I've been a steel guy for a long time, but I'm slowly coming over to aluminum. With tapered headtubes and big seat tubes and beefy tubes to account for new standards and riding styles, the flexy, springy steel bikes of my past seem pretty much gone. Modern steel frame just have to use too much steel to ride as well as they used to. At that point, I'm starting to see the benefit of saving weight and money by going with aluminum.


There are plenty of examples of heavy, dead overbuilt steel frames but there are still plenty of examples of more traditionally built frames that ride beautifully.

Here is my completely irrational, possibly stupid, completely not based on fact or logic way of looking at modern steel frames. But so far it has somehow worked out every time. If a steel frame is externally gusseted at the head tube (and other critical junctions), that tells me the builder is using a lighter gauge tubing and reinforcing it where required. Makes sense, because you can only swage (butt) a tube so much. So far in my experience, these frames ride more traditionally and still feel like great steel bikes. Think Honzo ST, Stanton Sherpa, Esker Japhy, Nimble 9, etc etc. 

On the other end are steel bikes without gusseting. They don't need it because they use a much heavier gauge and weight tubing for the strength required. These big bombers are much more dead and unforgiving feeling and lose a lot of the great traditional qualities of steel. Think Chromag, Bird Forge, Pole, RSD, etc etc... 

Told you it was dumb. But so far I'm batting a thousand based on my personal experiences.


----------



## 93M500 (Nov 10, 2021)

BadgerOne said:


> There are plenty of examples of heavy, dead overbuilt steel frames but there are still plenty of examples of more traditionally built frames that ride beautifully.
> 
> Here is my completely irrational, possibly stupid, completely not based on fact or logic way of looking at modern steel frames. But so far it has somehow worked out every time. If a steel frame is externally gusseted at the head tube (and other critical junctions), that tells me the builder is using a lighter gauge tubing and reinforcing it where required. Makes sense, because you can only swage (butt) a tube so much. So far in my experience, these frames ride more traditionally and still feel like great steel bikes. Think Honzo ST, Stanton Sherpa, Esker Japhy, Nimble 9, etc etc.
> 
> ...


Well understood. My focus is on a modern triple butted Ragley Blue Pig which weighs in at 32 lbs. for the medium, the Big Al aluminum frame bike weighs in at 30 lbs. That's not to shabby, no one should have a problem grinding up any hill.


----------

