# Jobst Brandt Tension Meter -- plans floating around?



## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

I was looking to build a nice spoke tension meter. Does anyone have plans for the Jobst Brandt one? Supposedly he used to freely disseminate the design/plans. 

I like the accuracy of a dial gauge, but the commercial spoke tension meters with this (i.e. FSA) are too expensive. Plus I have some nice dial indicators that are not currently being used. 

If someone can post the plans I'll gladly post the construction photos.


----------



## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

I'm interested in this as well...


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I have the DT tool. Absolutely useless.


----------



## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

pvd said:


> I have the DT tool. Absolutely useless.


How so?


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

It doesn't tell me anything that I need to know.


----------



## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

Are you not a fan of spoke tension meters in general?


----------



## Jamenstall (May 18, 2004)

PVD, can you expand on that some. I'm sorta in the market for a tensioner. What are the pluses and minus's to the various designs. This subject has been talked over and over again in the wheel section to. I was going to get the FSA one, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.


----------



## notubes_pete (Dec 12, 2006)

I like the Brandt design, The design for his tool is in his book "the bicycle wheel"


----------



## norcom (Feb 22, 2007)

The full book's available here in pdf
http://www.icelord.net/bike/thebicyclewheel.pdf

Not my site and doesn't look like the design is in the book. Seems sort of simple to build though. Just a dial and a spring base that pushes on the spoke. I have the park one and I still couldn't build a wheel if my life depended on it. Maybe one day I'll read the book.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I've probably build 10 or so wheels a year for the past few years and have been building my own for the last 20. I can get the tension on the spokes even enough by feel for the wheel to be solid, fast, and straight for a good long time. I've checked this against the tension meter and it looks like I'm doing fine. As for what the final tension is, I don't think that that's really important. I'm tightening the nipple until I think it or the rim is just about to fail. As tight as you can get basically. So the value is really not important to me. So why use it?

It's funny that this thread came up as I was showing the tool to a shop mate a few days ago showing him how much of a waste of money it was. It looks cool though. It's like having a fit bike when you build frames. Folks think that you can produce some kind of magic using it that you can't any other way.

PS. Brandt's opinion on anything other than the step by step basic wheelbuilding process is completely whacked. He bases his opinions on being an old school freaky touring guy. Do yourself a favor ask qualified race wheel builders before you belive what's in that book.


----------



## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

http://wheelfanatyk.blogspot.com/

Good info on wheel building from a source that has been deeply involved in the wheel industry.









Jobst gauge hanging next to the gorilla pic.


----------



## shopcat_cycles (Dec 28, 2007)

norcom said:


> Not my site and doesn't look like the design is in the book.


A basic drawing of the design is in the book. I'm not sure that would help the OP though.

I like the FSA gauge - it's quick and easy to use. Not sure that it's good for judging ultimate tension, but it gives a good idea of even tension. It is also sweet looking, but not worth the cost - I'd only recommend it if you get a great deal; I spent $100 on mine.


----------



## unterhausen (Sep 28, 2008)

I started building wheels before anyone thought of using a tension gage, and since I'm not selling now I can't really afford to spend the money on a gage. I suspect I'm fairly good at judging the required tightness by feel, but there are rims that have a max tension that is below what you can apply through just going to the max tension. 

My understanding is that most of them need to be calibrated frequently. There must be a problem with a lot of gages, because I see a lot of wheels that are clearly under-tensioned. Either that or a lot of people are selling wheels and don't realize they should be using tension meters.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

It's simple enough to make other than acurately calculating the force value.


----------



## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

That's a start. I was hoping there were more detailed plans around just so I wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel. It's much quicker to build only compared with design + build -- as we all know each generation of something you make gets a better, so why not borrow someone else's 5th gen design. 

Pete -- the ultimate numerical force value isn't super important, as you have made clear by recounting how you do them by hand. I am concerned more with relative force values, for which this type of tool is sufficient. I also just like having quality tools, and I know if I make one that I will have it for the rest of my life, which is reason enough for me.


----------



## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Maybe my copy of the book is old, but he never mentions that the tension meter pictured (as above) is his design, or that he built it. Does he expound on this elsewhere? I can't figure out how it would work.

-Schmitty-


----------



## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Schmitty said:


> Maybe my copy of the book is old, but he never mentions that the tension meter pictured (as above) is his design, or that he built it. Does he expound on this elsewhere? I can't figure out how it would work.
> 
> -Schmitty-


The spoke sits over the jig feet/rolls and the anvil between them pushes up on the spoke (pushing the spoke slightly towards the indicator. The dial indicator measures deflection. To use it, your two fingers go in the holes, your palm pushes the anvil handle down and when you release pressure, the anvil pushes the spoke against the jig feet/rolls and the deflection indicates tension.

PVD, what information were you expecting to be provided by the DT tensiometer when you bought it?


----------



## Monte (Dec 20, 2003)

ncfisherman said:


> A basic drawing of the design is in the book. I'm not sure that would help the OP though.
> 
> I like the FSA gauge - it's quick and easy to use. Not sure that it's good for judging ultimate tension, but it gives a good idea of even tension. It is also sweet looking, but not worth the cost - I'd only recommend it if you get a great deal; I spent $100 on mine.


Maybe you already know, but the FSA gauge is the Brandt gauge. Brandt created that design specifically to give more accurate readings for ultimate tension. Something to do with the spoke thickness and the bearing points on the gauge.


----------



## derek (Jan 13, 2004)

DWF said:


> The spoke sits over the jig feet/rolls and the anvil between them pushes up on the spoke (pushing the spoke slightly towards the indicator. The dial indicator measures deflection. To use it, your two fingers go in the holes, your palm pushes the anvil handle down and when you release pressure, the anvil pushes the spoke against the jig feet/rolls and the deflection indicates tension.


This is the best explanation I've seen for how it works.

I made one about a year ago, and would make a few modifications if I was planning on using it (mainly larger fingers holes, a nicer anvil handle, and a way to keep the spoke centered on the feet). But, as PVD said in his elegant way, it is fairly simple to make. Just choose a distance between the feet and make something that pushes on the spoke. I just used a small spring I found that pushed between the dial indicator and the anvil handle (near the bottom of the last picture).

Hopefully the pictures of my homebrew will help you out. I may have a drawing of the pieces I'll have to look for those later. Let me know if you want those, although it would still be the unmodified version.


----------



## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Ah, got it. Didn't know it was spring loaded.

I've built a million wheels, and never felt the need for one. Seems like it would really slow you down, and create fertile ground for tail chasing.

But of course I've always wanted one. Looks like a good project for a group buy from bigbluesaw, emachine, etc after a good file has been created.

-Schmitty-


----------



## shopcat_cycles (Dec 28, 2007)

Monte said:


> Maybe you already know, but the FSA gauge is the Brandt gauge. Brandt created that design specifically to give more accurate readings for ultimate tension. Something to do with the spoke thickness and the bearing points on the gauge.


Yes, I am aware...."J. Brandt" is stamped into the back of my gauge. I also own a copy of The Bicycle Wheel, in which it is referenced. It's said to be the most accurate for ultimate tension, but from what I have worked on I am not sure that it translates. A wheelbuilders senses are probably more useful tools, when it comes down to it.

FWIW...It's far more accurate than my Wheelsmith tensionmeter.


----------



## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

I've got tension guage at my shop. I've been building wheels since 1984 (Not to get confused with 1884  ) I've got the tension guage for the customers more than me. In all my time I tighten the spokes about as tight as I can get them. Get then true side to side, up & Down, and dished, using blue loctite on the nipples. I never have problems. The funny thing is when I check the wheel after it's built I'm usually spot on. 
-
I mean if a wheel is true side to side, up & down, and dished, then all the spokes have to be under the same tension on each side right? Usually the rear drive side is tighter because of the dish (Since you have to dish the fronts now because of DISC I made that distinction)
-
I remember reading something somewhere about not over tightening Chris King hubs because over time you well stretch the hub shell and that will loosen the cassette bearings in the shell. If I remember right I think they suggested 1200 something. After I built the wheel I was still under a bit. I remember thinking I'd probably round some spoke nipple in pursuit of the limit. I've built 100s of sets without a complaint.
-
I think this whole tension thing got started when Shimano introduced those wheels that the spokes attached into the side wall of the rims. That way you are not pulling spokes through. 
-
In all my time I've experience what tensions do to a wheel over a season. I've found it a useful tool to proof my work to new customers more than anything.


----------



## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

CurbDestroyer said:


> using blue loctite on the nipples.


Loctite on the nipples? :skep:



CurbDestroyer said:


> I mean if a wheel is true side to side, up & down, and dished, then all the spokes have to be under the same tension on each side right?


Once the tension gets high, the wheel can be true and the tension spoke to spoke can still fluctuate quite a bit.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I use blue loctite (242) as well. It's a simple medium strength threadlocker and prevents corrosion between metals. That's what it's designed to do. Why would you use anything else?

https://tds.us.henkel.com//NA/UT/HNAUTTDS.nsf/web/4F5DE4CF912A71D7882571870000D60D/$File/242-EN.pdf


----------



## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

pvd said:


> I use blue loctite (242) as well. It's a simple medium strength threadlocker and prevents corrosion between metals. That's what it's designed to do. Why would you use anything else?


All I've used for a long time is anti-seize. It keeps the nipples easy to turn years down the road, and with a well tensioned wheel Ive never felt the need for thread locker.

EDIT: I forgot the mention, the other reason I like anti-seize is because it makes the nipples easier to turn and helps prevent spoke wind-up once the tension starts getting high.


----------



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

The #1 reason for using the threadlocker is for the corrosion prevention, similar to the reason for using anti-seize. The treadlocker makes the parts free up well after years of neglect. I guess that people tend to get hung up on the word 'threadlock' when really it's being used (in this case) to ensure the parts can be freed up later.


----------



## eMcK (Aug 22, 2007)

I built wheels for years without a tension meter, and I built bikes for years without a torque wrench. Things worked well enough. Well enough is good enough for some people. 

These days I build bikes with a torque wrench and wheels with a tension meter. Checking your work with instruments more accurate than your fingers is never a bad idea.


----------



## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

eMcK said:


> These days I build bikes with a torque wrench and wheels with a tension meter. Checking your work with instruments more accurate than your fingers is never a bad idea.


Yeah, I've built a ton of wheels, literally, I've built ~2,000 lbs worth of wheels. I used to do them without a tension meter but I'd never do that again. I used to do them a lot of ways that I'd never do again, but it's taken a long time to develop the processes that I use now.


----------



## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Wheel components are so much better than they used to be.. wonder if a tension meter served more purpose back then for finding bad spokes, etc. 

How do the parts of that Brandt meter 'slide'? If that wasn't made carefully, you could easily get false readings on a .0005 indicator. 

-Schmitty-


----------



## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

bad mechanic said:


> Loctite on the nipples? :skep:
> 
> Once the tension gets high, the wheel can be true and the tension spoke to spoke can still fluctuate quite a bit.


Yep Blue Loctite. While your wheel is in the truing stand, put a drop on the back of every nipple, then grap a piece of clipped off brake cable to brush it down inside the nipple. Won't seiz up, and won't vibrate loose.

A long time ago, I used to get some people with double eyelet touring rims, that would fill in the space between the back side of the nipple and base-tape with rubber cement and cork . . . Yep, that would do it.


----------



## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

I prefer the green Loctite. I assemble dry (with a drop of 3n1 oil under the head of the nipple) and then add a drop of Green on both sides of the nipple. The green wicks. I use a DT tension gauge. I find that it makes me feel better in verifying that I got it right. 

Tim


----------



## notubes_pete (Dec 12, 2006)

pvd said:


> It's simple enough to make other than acurately calculating the force value.


If you read this http://yarchive.net/bike/tensiometer.html
You can see, Brandt recommends 100mm span (L) about about 2kgf spring force. With a max deflection of .5mm or less. With this formula tho you could change the spring or the space, just make the correction on the formula.


----------



## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

I build a couple hundred wheels a year and I always use a tensiometer (DT) the biggest reason is that most of those wheels use bladed spokes and even at my volumes I can't tell the difference between bladed spokes. Plus when you look at a chart for any tensiometer the difference between 100 kilos and 130 isn't much, certainly less than you will be able to tell with your calibrated fingers. 

All that aside I could build durable wheels with straight gauge or 14/15 spokes all day long without a tensiometer but using that tool is such a part of my routine that I do it anyway.


----------



## Xstar (Dec 11, 2010)

Thought you guys might be interested in this. It's my build of the FSA tensiometer.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=672270


----------



## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Back when I used to build wheels I would play the wheel by plucking the spokes and try to adjust tension to get them to all sound the same.


----------



## Xstar (Dec 11, 2010)

I think that is as good as any way to build. Here's some inspiration for the spoke plucker in ya.


----------

