# Building a new frame jig



## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

I've been building frames on a first generation Henry James Universal jig which is from the early 1990's. I've put quite a lot of time into updating it to build modern mountain bike frames. Even after the mods my last build maxed out the jig at 475mm reach. I wanted to go longer. It seems like every frame required building a new piece for the jig. 
Now, I'm working on a full suspension project and it won't even fit on the back plate at all. I started designing a new, larger back plate for the jig and a bunch of other adapters I would need when a friend suggested that at this point I may as well start from scratch and build a whole new jig. 

So I designed a new jig. It's similar to the Anvil/Sputnik style of jig. One big difference is that the head angle rotates around the top/center of the HT, so that stack, reach and head angle can all be independently adjusted without affecting one another. It will be made from 1" thick ATP5 cast aluminum jig plate. This is similar to MIC6, Alca 5 and cast jig plate materials. ATP5 is cheap, slightly lighter, flat and it takes anodizing better than some of the others.

Before I post drawings, I wanted to get some feedback on the geometry limits of the jig from those who have built more frames than I have. I think this jig should build a 16" wheeled childs bike up to a fairly large road bike. It would struggle to built a 12" wheeled kids bike and probably wouldn't do a 36er. Should I build the jig to do that too? I don't know.

Here's where I'm at currently: 
Stack: 292 to 735mm
Reach: 178 to 559mm
Horizontal Chainstay: 190 to 489mm
BB rise/drop: +/- 100mm
Seat Angle: 60 to 80 degrees
Seat tube offset: 0 to 90mm
Seat tube length: 254 to 660mm
Head tube angle: 55 to 80 degrees
Max Head tube length: 265mm


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

bla


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

https://www.siegmund.com/en-us

see- https://www.siegmund.com/data/dl_file.php?file_id=127902

Rhino Cart - Strong Hand Tools

https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=159

https://www.newport.com/f/sa2-solid-aluminum-optical-breadboard-plates


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

Just because this thread is kind of worthless with out pics-- here is a very dumbed down, simple 2D of the jig.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

PVD you build on an Anvil jig. Would you rather build on a flat plate? 

I get it, its easy enough to do and the geo possibilities are endless, but lots more time in setup to build on a plate compared to a dedicated jig. My Henry James jig is basically a flat plate jig with BB and rear axle mount. The plate just isn't big enough.

I could build this jig for around $1100 in materials if I use bolts instead fancy handles and don't anodize it. It's designed to be easy to build on a manual machine with a DRO. Mill some slots and drill some bolt holes. That's cheaper than most of those work stations or a decent sized weld-it-yourself table like a Certi-Flat. Granted, a bike jig can't build much besides bikes.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

For what I want to do, a tool plate based fixture is a much better investment of my time and money. So much more is possible, especially if you plan on doing FS bikes.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Once you start working on more interesting projects, the value of a plate system becomes obvious.


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## Erichimedes (Jul 30, 2010)

Peter, are those what people refer to as optical breadboard? I like the looks of them, but haven't dove into looking at prices, sizes, etc.

EDIT: I see it's probably parts from the Siegmund company. I'll check them out.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Here is a nice platform to start a design from and priced pretty well. It would be nice if it was 6" longer. It should be able to do FS bikes pretty well but a ton of other work. I've been doing this stuff for a while and I can say that you may be able to save a little money by working plate from raw but compared to the flatness, precision, and anodization of an optical plate, you'd be a fool to do that. Stuff costs money. Your foundation should be tits.

36 In X 48 In X 3/4 In Thick Solid Aluminum Optical Breadboard
Part Number:SAB3648-T
$1,707.00

SAB3648-T - 36 in x 48 in x 3/4 in Thick Solid Aluminum Optical Breadboard, Black Anodized

Personally, it's either the Siegmund or the BaseLab plate. It depends on how much fab you want to do compared to precision setup.

System 16 1200x800mm (47"x31") Siegmund "BASIC" Welding Table (Item No. 4-161025.P)

https://weldingtablesandfixtures.co...egmund-basic-welding-table-item-no-4-161025-p

Thor custom is limited to max 48" x 24". Kinda weird.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

An economical welding table that if built with care is pretty damned flat, more than flat enough for frame building.

https://weldtables.com/collections/...ng-table-top-kit-certiflat-by-tab-slot-u-weld

https://weldtables.com/products/lk3648-u-k-cnc-tube-laser-leg-kit-heavy-duty


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## calstar (Mar 26, 2013)

Those look pretty nice, like you say probably flat enough for a weld table. Do you think it is strong enough to install a whipping post for alignment?

thanks


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

No.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

calstar said:


> Those look pretty nice, like you say probably flat enough for a weld table. Do you think it is strong enough to install a whipping post for alignment?
> 
> thanks


Nope.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

I like those tables a lot. I have a friend with a laser table at his shop (they build attachments for heavy equipment) so the plan is to eventually have him cut one out for me. I just don't know where to fit it. My garage is getting crowded.

A year or so ago I made a CAD drawing with all the different parts of this type table. The drawing is set up with the table in modular sections so the size, shape and top thickness can be easily changed. I can share it with anyone if they're interested.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

I'm super excited. I spent all weekend making space in the garage for a new mill. Had to move all sorts of stuff around but I can still fit my truck and my wife's van in there. 
Yes, it's a Taiwanese Bridgeport clone, but it's far better than the Chinese mill drill I was working with. It's seen very little use plus it came with an "okay" vise and a phase converter. No broken or missing parts. For the price I paid, I can still afford a DRO and more tooling. No, its not a Bridgeport or Lagun, but it fit the budget. I read on the internet (so it must be true) that it's so identical to a Bridgeport that many Bridgeport parts will fit. We will see.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Have fun with the mill. It doesn't really matter the brand as long as it's tightend up and cuts real stuff. A whole new world.

I just ordered a Rhyno Cart for my work shop. It seemed to be the best balance of price, ease and an imperial raster. I need to be able to mount 1" raster optical board to it so this is important to me.

Rhino Cart - Strong Hand Tools

It's funny that while modeling it from the information on the website, it's obvious that the top is a native metric.

Anyway, drawing below. I'm hoping to start getting it adapted to frame jig use. Not a priority but the end goal.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

Our local welding shop sells the Rhyno Carts. I was pretty impressed with it when I saw it in their showroom. I've been trying to talk my boss into getting one for the shop at work. Then I can do some actual work on it and see if I love it enough to buy one for home too.

I hope you like yours. I'm excited to see what you come up with.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

I was successful in talking the boss into getting a Rhino Cart. It seems pretty well built and it came with all sorts of fixturing bits and pieces. I think it's a very good value. I haven't had a chance to check the table top for flatness yet. I couldn't see a flatness spec. anywhere in the Rhino Cart information. Just kind of curious how it compares to a Certiflat table, which are claimed to be +/- .010" (if you build it right.)

I'll mess around with it and see how feasible it will be to adapt part from my Henry James jig to work with the Rhino Cart. The Henry James jig is essentially just a plate fixture with some fancy adjustments built in.


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## jsudar (Dec 9, 2011)

On another note in the same vein, I saw a good deal on a small lathe in the local classifieds, decided a small lathe was better than no lathe and headed out to buy it. I got a nice little Jet 9x20 with a bunch of tooling and a homemade DRO built from a Harbor Freight digital caliper. It's small enough to fit in the garage and it's 115V. I'm out of space in my electrical panel, so installing another 220V receptacle would require a bunch of conduit work and a new breaker panel.

Anyway, I got chatting with the seller and bicycles came up. He told me he built a couple aluminum frames back in the nineties on a jig he built himself. Now he builds gorgeous carbon fiber tanks and fenders for old Kawasaki street bikes. I was blown away by his motorcycles-- absolutely professional looking, next level stuff.

So we get the lathe in my truck and he says thanks and goes back inside the house. I'm standing in the truck bed getting the lathe tied down and he comes back out and says, "I've been dragging this frame jig around for thirty years and I'm never going to build another frame. Can you use it?"

Now I have another frame jig. What a cool guy. It's a beam style jig, so there are lots of options for me.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Fyi, I'm 99% done with my RhinoCart based fixture design. Just doing fine detailing and subtle improvements while lockdown continues. Certain economics will decide if I pay more now or less later to get it to machining.


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## compositepro (Jun 21, 2007)

jsudar said:


> I was successful in talking the boss into getting a Rhino Cart. It seems pretty well built and it came with all sorts of fixturing bits and pieces. I think it's a very good value. I haven't had a chance to check the table top for flatness yet. I couldn't see a flatness spec. anywhere in the Rhino Cart information. Just kind of curious how it compares to a Certiflat table, which are claimed to be +/- .010" (if you build it right.)
> 
> I'll mess around with it and see how feasible it will be to adapt part from my Henry James jig to work with the Rhino Cart. The Henry James jig is essentially just a plate fixture with some fancy adjustments built in.
> View attachment 1326303


There's nothing wrong with flat plates some of the most accurate stuff we ever designed and made was done on that principle the problem is the bicycle world is conditioned to use what has gone before which is fancy adjustable beams, people run out and spunk 10 k on tools to build 1 frame , by the time they have finished asking question they could have built 20 frames and learned a **** ton more

when i started out and we were making prototypes you couldnt even buy one, a flat plate and vee blocks , machinist jacks , guage, bars ,magnets and shims were all you had ...a production jig was purpose built not some multi adjustable fanny magnet that all the framebuilders coo over...

And it certainly wasnt aluminium or even ground steel guage plate either


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## sayhello (Jul 16, 2020)

*working on a ne frame-jig:: which bottom bracket assemblies should i work out:*

hello dear jsudar, pvd, Erichimedes, life behind bars, calstar and compositepro.

wow - what a awesome thread - i am excited. There are so many ideeas ini

i am currently workin on the Bicycle-Frame-Building-Jig that is designed by tanner W at instructables https://www.instructables.com/id/Bicycle-Frame-Building-Jig/

which bottom bracket assemblies should i work out:



> To secure the cylinder that holds the 5/8" rod to the back plate I drilled and tapped the back of it. I drilled corresponding holes in the back plate and screwed them together. I also drilled and tapped the cylinder for small set screws. These will hold the rod securely perpendicular to the ST support. The cones are held in place on the rod with locking collars from McMaster.
> the big mistake I discovered once I started building with this jig was that I made the BB cones out of aluminum. The tight fit of the steel BB shell on to the big cone causes issues once you start heating. The aluminum expands differently than steel and gets really stuck in the BB shell. I need to make new cones out of steel. Mount the BB assembly to the ST assembly at the correct position (distance from BB center to channels in the ST assembly, see drawings).


The question is - which bottom bracket-assembly-types would you suggest!?
which axles and dummy shells should i drill

see https://www.instructables.com/id/Bicycle-Frame-Building-Jig/

well at the moment i am musing bout the extras

- what should i add 
- which features should i add 
- eg some dummy axles for the bottom bracket assembly - what do you suggest!?

i think as long as we can get a standard English bb in both 68 and 73, 
we should be fine.

afaik: It's hard to deal with the press fit sizes because AFAIK nobody is selling facing/reaming tools for them. As far as i know: Paragon has a ton of bb shells available, so we could match what they sell.

but I think the two most standard sizes will probably do for now.

the tanner w fixture is adjustable for width, so we only need one set of blocks see here: https://www.instructables.com/id/Bicycle-Frame-Building-Jig/

and also see the bottom bracket shells: https://www.paragonmachineworks.com/frame-building-parts/bottom-bracket-shells/steel.html

well at the moment i am musing bout the extras

- what should i add 
- which features should i add 
- eg some dummy axles for the bottom bracket assembly - what do you suggest!?

*
btw in earlier times *i have worked on these concepts:

Bicycle frame jigs (2/4)
https://fernandoj.wordpress.com/2013/12/31/bicycle-frame-jigs-23/



> The election of a frame fixture is not just a matter of budget. It is obvious that if you are going to produce few amateur frames a flat surface or a beam design jig will suit you. If you circulate large amounts of kind of the same type you should ponder over switching to something that ease the assembly and welding at the expense of less versatility.
> Potential frame builders have the mistaken idea that the jig must be extremely accurate, built like a precision timepiece and yet possess immense strength for bending and holding the tubing sections in position for welding but in fact the base structure of the jig, sometimes called the backbone, bed, table, base table, face table or frame face can be almost any relative rigid structure. As long as the backbone is level in all directions the real precision and accuracy will come about through the fabrication of the fixtures that attach to this substructure (backbone) and then will be adjusted and secured to position and hold the tubing and parts in place during the fabrication of the frame.


The VillaVelo framebuilding jig (Posted on March 29, 2017 by villaveloframes)
VillaVelo :: Custom bicycle frames by the Vuong brothers

https://villaveloframes.wordpress.com/2017/03/29/the-villavelo-framebuilding-jig/



> Above is the original framebuilding jig that we acquired from the Bundys. It was made sometime back in the 1970s - apparently a copy of a Cinelli jig according to Peter - and was used to build thousands of frames by both Jim and Peter Bundy.
> It consists of a large steel plate, with individual fixtures:
> head tube holder
> seat tube holder
> ...


Bohemian Bicycles Blogorama :: rantings of a bicycle framebuilder
https://bohemianbicycles.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/you-really-dont-need-a-fancy-jig-really/



> You really don't need a fancy jig&#8230;really! 9 05 2013
> What I speak of a generally called a frame fixture or jig. An apparatus that holds all the frame tubes in the right proximity to one another to allow one to weld/braze a bicycle frame. Believe it or not a most excellent job can be done without one or with minimal fixturing.
> Yes, I have one. Actually I have three. What does it do for the professional? It makes us much faster while still being accurate. Time is money and in addition to that I am fully capable of screwing up at a moments notice. I have literally looked at a number and convinced myself it says something else so fixtures remove the possibility of making gross errors. It is much easier to look at the seat angle of my Anvil fixture and when the hash mark lines up with 73 degrees, its 73 degrees. Yes it's a beautiful thing and I highly recommend the fixturing from any of the great suppliers.


example: https://bohemianbicycles.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/jig-3.jpg


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

My new fixture goes live next week. It's currently being anodized. Stay tuned.


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## JHensley (May 11, 2020)

Hey man I just finished reading your blog about the frame jig you had stolen from you. So happy to hear that you straightened out that situation to the best of your ability.
People like that are the reason that I have a general distrust in the vast majority of people.


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