# Save us from the enemy....



## Scott forty G. (Dec 25, 2009)

ourselves.


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

I used to skate. I feel the same way about this as I do about razor scooters and snake boards... vomit.


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## Chad_M (Jul 11, 2013)

Might as well pick up an enduro motorcycle and have more fun.


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## Whacked (Sep 29, 2008)

Friends don't let friends use Strava.

Just say NO to Strava.


and the Trek is a abomination


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

Whacked said:


> Friends don't let friends use Strava.
> 
> Just say NO to Strava.
> 
> and the Trek is a abomination


Felt is doing it too, iinm


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## Zomby Woof (MCM700) (May 23, 2004)

Chad_M said:


> Might as well pick up an enduro motorcycle and have more fun.


It would probably cost less than an e-bike too.


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

I've owned cars less expensive than dove of my bikes


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## 802spokestoke (Jun 20, 2012)

I'm going to be really butt-hurt the first time an "on-the-lefter" pinches me off a single-track climb on one. I might take up golf.


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## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

Fingers crossed the electric bikes are excluded from most trails as they're motor-powered and should be under the same category as a proper motorbike...


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Manufacturers won't make them if people won't buy them ... the reality is people are buying them.


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

cyclelicious said:


> Manufacturers won't make them if people won't buy them ... the reality is people are buying them.


Yeah but I don't think "we" are buying them, meaning the more purist mountain bikers.


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## TwoNin9r (Jan 26, 2011)

802spokestoke said:


> I'm going to be really butt-hurt the first time an "on-the-lefter" pinches me off a single-track climb on one. I might take up golf.


Here's hoping we'll be fast enough to run them down and give them a nice, "hey, go f**k yourself."


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## Bird (Mar 26, 2004)

People are going to buy them.....just like the avid archer sporting a crossbow.

How about an E-GYM ? that lifts the weights for you or maybe a E-SPINBIKE, very cool concept


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

David R said:


> Fingers crossed the electric bikes are excluded from most trails as they're motor-powered and should be under the same category as a proper motorbike...


very interesting to see what happens with how the 100's of different jurisdictions respond to this one...


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## 802spokestoke (Jun 20, 2012)

Just when things were getting good...honestly though, mtbr thoughts matter even if only by a minimal amount. I really think the forum should nip this thing in the butt before it gets out of control. Right, TREK? Please, please, for the love of God! Do what's right and leave this on a cyclocross only!!!


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Maybe I'm sheltered, but these e-bike things seem like one item that will actually be a passing fad.

People will try them; people without enough skill or fitness to otherwise ride a trail. Then something will happen and they won't be able to ride them out. What will they do with them then? Call a tow truck?
Or they will find that everyone is passing them on the downhills because their e-bikes are too heavy to turn or brake using regular bicycle components.
Or their regular bicycle components will simply fail under the strain.

Lots of things look like a good idea until you give them the real world test. These are not likely to pass the test of real trails and real riding. Their "operational envelope" is small, and their allowed access is small.
At a long stretch, I could see reserving their use for race marshalls or officials, or maybe even trail maintainers, but not for common use. Ever.

-F


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## huffster (Nov 14, 2011)

cyclelicious said:


> Manufacturers won't make them if people won't buy them ... the reality is people are buying them.


I solemnly swear, I will NOT buy one.


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## rippling over canyons (Jun 11, 2004)

How much does that thing weigh?


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## shining_trapezoid (Mar 24, 2014)

Fleas said:


> Maybe I'm sheltered, but these e-bike things seem like one item that will actually be a passing fad.
> 
> People will try them; people without enough skill or fitness to otherwise ride a trail. Then something will happen and they won't be able to ride them out. What will they do with them then? Call a tow truck?
> Or they will find that everyone is passing them on the downhills because their e-bikes are too heavy to turn or brake using regular bicycle components.
> ...


You bring up a good point. Mountain biking has always had a potentially dangerous side, but the safety of riding something like that on some of the trails I've been on kinda makes me concerned. Get stranded in the mountains with a dead e-bike, then what? Going faster than your skill can handle, crashing and hurting yourself or somebody else is already a possibility obviously; adding an electric motor and more weight to the equation just seems like it would make it worse. I truly, truly hope these aren't allowed on trails that are already restricted to motorized vehicles, but how is anyone gonna enforce that? I'm guessing they're a lot quieter than a dirt bike or any gas powered vehicle. 
No sir, I don't like it.


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## Kliemann53 (Aug 11, 2009)

I wonder how the mtn bike components on it will hold up to the higher speeds on rough trails. Seems like it would put downhill bike forces on trail bike components.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Hybrid bikes that recapture energy during braking are coming. They will allow people to ride much longer rides and ride up stuff that would stop them. They won't be "getting a free ride" really, just recapturing energy that would otherwise be lost to heat. No matter what you think, it's coming and people will be riding them. A 65 year old will think it's the most awesome thing and feel like they are 20 years younger. 

In regards to the bike above, now people that are too disabled to ride a normal bike have something they can ride. Where do you draw the line? Do those people not deserve to ride trails? Change is inevitable.


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## rockhopper97 (Jul 30, 2014)

defeats the purpose of riding a bike IMO..... I will stick to pedaling... if I cant pedal I would just drive my beater ford ranger


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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm so glad those things aren't allowed on the trails I ride.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Jayem said:


> Hybrid bikes that recapture energy during braking are coming. They will allow people to ride much longer rides and ride up stuff that would stop them. They won't be "getting a free ride" really, just recapturing energy that would otherwise be lost to heat. No matter what you think, it's coming and people will be riding them. A 65 year old will think it's the most awesome thing and feel like they are 20 years younger.
> 
> In regards to the bike above, now people that are too disabled to ride a normal bike have something they can ride. Where do you draw the line? Do those people not deserve to ride trails? Change is inevitable.


Pretty sure any disabled person caught riding one of these things would be in trouble for fraud. Real disabled people would not even attempt to ride anything with two wheels on technical single track. They can't even walk halfway across a parking lot for crying out loud.


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## ou2mame (Apr 23, 2010)

I don't care about electric bikes. They don't bother me, I don't want one... I don't think I'd care if I see one on the trail.. I dunno, they just don't make me feel anything. If people want to be lazy and take the bicycle out of mtbing so be it. Their loss.

And about disabilities.. There are all kinds of them. You'd be surprised how many people have joint problems but can still ride a bike, but not experience the single track technical trails that we do. But now they can. 

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Too each their own I guess but I ever see one on the trail I won't show the rider any respect. I show all riders the same respect, as well as other trail users but some a** clown comes out on one of those, im just going to point and laugh. I have works my tail off for over 2 yrs to loose 100lbs so far and learn to ride properly, and love the hell outta it. I know half what we are going to see is obese teenage/college age WOW players riding these damn things. Another thing of making tech to make and keep ppl fat and lazy.
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## Dopamine (Jan 21, 2010)

I think we mountain bikers should really distance ourselves from these ebikes. Make it clear they another new separate user class on the trails that are totally different from pedal powered bikes. I just see the anti-bike forces trying to lump ebikes in with mountain bikes and try to get us banned from more trails, or at least not open more trails to us. It is not a bicycle, it is a motorized vehicle, totally different and seperate from mountain bikes - has to be emphasized.


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## ou2mame (Apr 23, 2010)

Where I ride, I think it could totally be fun to get some big air on the logs and stuff but since I ride for fitness, it would be counter productive. I saw a guy with his son on a trail and he had one of those razer mini electric dirt bike type things. The kid looked like he was having fun. I didn't kick it over and slash his tires with my Tanto, i just went around them. It really wasn't that big of a deal and I don't think he was doing any trail damage... I could see those adult electric dirt bikes, but that's just a dirt bike with an electric motor. What's the concern with the ebikes really? Trail damage? I don't see how, they don't have the power or weight to make the ruts that the 2 strokers can do. They aren't any larger, they are fast enough to stay in front of you... I don't see the concern. Can someone explain the hate? 

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## Ilyam3 (Nov 21, 2011)

ou2mame said:


> Where I ride, I think it could totally be fun to get some big air on the logs and stuff but since I ride for fitness, it would be counter productive. I saw a guy with his son on a trail and he had one of those razer mini electric dirt bike type things. The kid looked like he was having fun. I didn't kick it over and slash his tires with my Tanto, i just went around them. It really wasn't that big of a deal and I don't think he was doing any trail damage... I could see those adult electric dirt bikes, but that's just a dirt bike with an electric motor. What's the concern with the ebikes really? Trail damage? I don't see how, they don't have the power or weight to make the ruts that the 2 strokers can do. They aren't any larger, they are fast enough to stay in front of you... I don't see the concern. Can someone explain the hate?
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


Good discussion here
Opinion: A Secret Trail and an Argument Against E-Bikes - Pinkbike
There is a thread in general discussion going on.

There is no hate - mopeds are fun and soon all motorcycles will be electric. But they should be used on motocross trails
Concern for mountain bikes is loss of access to trails we worked so hard to get. There is no way to check what moped you are riding. People will modify their mopeds immediately to be more powerful. So it has to be black and white. No motorized devices on mountain bike trails
D


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

John Kuhl said:


> I'm so glad those things aren't allowed on the trails I ride.


So what trails are you referring to ? What location and jurisdiction ? very curious to know


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## Dopamine (Jan 21, 2010)

ou2mame said:


> Where I ride, I think it could totally be fun to get some big air on the logs and stuff but since I ride for fitness, it would be counter productive. I saw a guy with his son on a trail and he had one of those razer mini electric dirt bike type things. The kid looked like he was having fun. I didn't kick it over and slash his tires with my Tanto, i just went around them. It really wasn't that big of a deal and I don't think he was doing any trail damage... I could see those adult electric dirt bikes, but that's just a dirt bike with an electric motor. What's the concern with the ebikes really? Trail damage? I don't see how, they don't have the power or weight to make the ruts that the 2 strokers can do. They aren't any larger, they are fast enough to stay in front of you... I don't see the concern. Can someone explain the hate?
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


No hate, I just don't want to advocate for motorcycle use on existing trails. I also don't think motorcycle riders should be able to piggyback on years of work mountain bikers have done to open trails for mountain bikes. If they want to advocate to ride their motorcycles on trails and try to get access that's fine by me, but it's got nothing to do with mountain biking.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

ou2mame said:


> I don't care about electric bikes. They don't bother me, I don't want one... I don't think I'd care if I see one on the trail.. I dunno, they just don't make me feel anything. If people want to be lazy and take the bicycle out of mtbing so be it. Their loss.
> 
> And about disabilities.. There are all kinds of them. You'd be surprised how many people have joint problems but can still ride a bike, but not experience the single track technical trails that we do. But now they can.
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


Joint problems are so ubiquitous it would be an insult to those with actual disabilities to call it a disability. I've ridden and raced with a guy who had only one leg and he could handle his bike on tech trails just fine without electric assistance.

'E-bikes' are the WMD other user groups have been waiting for to get us banned everywhere.


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## ou2mame (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm partially disabled in my upper body because a deteriorated shoulder joint. Some days my arm feels like it's on fire from nerve damage, other days it's at 50% strength and that's about as good as it gets. Because of the damage, it has also messed up my upper back and my other shoulder too. Just because I still have my arm, that doesn't mean it's any less debilitating. There are also disorders where this happens to all the joints, mine is from trauma but it can be caused by genetics too. It's an insult to people who are disabled in any way to compare their disabilities to other people who are disabled worse, and tell them they're not disabled at all. 

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## Dopamine (Jan 21, 2010)

dgw2jr said:


> Joint problems are so ubiquitous it would be an insult to those with actual disabilities to call it a disability. I've ridden and raced with a guy who had only one leg and he could handle his bike on tech trails just fine without electric assistance.
> 
> 'E-bikes' are the WMD other user groups have been waiting for to get us banned everywhere.


Let's call them what they are - motorcycles. Electric motorcycles more specifically. "ebike" is a marketing buzzword created to disguise what these things really are. They've got electric motors in them - they are motorcycles.


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## ou2mame (Apr 23, 2010)

One of my friends got shot 5 times, 2 in the foot 2 in the leg and one in the collar bone.. He's pieced together with metal and other crap, and he goes to the gym everyday. He's built, solid muscle. You'd look at him and never know the amount of pain he's in just walking. These things happen. After they put him back together they made him a detective and he got ran over. Again they put him back together, but more pain. So just because somebody looks healthy, that has nothing to do with what they've been through. It's so close minded to assume that if you've got the limb it's 100% functional and doesn't bring pain with its existence. This dude does bike ride everyday, but in the street. He can't handle the terrain of techy trails.. Electric assist he probably could though. 

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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

ou2mame said:


> One of my friends got shot 5 times, 2 in the foot 2 in the leg and one in the collar bone.. He's pieced together with metal and other crap, and he goes to the gym everyday. He's built, solid muscle. You'd look at him and never know the amount of pain he's in just walking. These things happen. After they put him back together they made him a detective and he got ran over. Again they put him back together, but more pain. So just because somebody looks healthy, that has nothing to do with what they've been through. It's so close minded to assume that if you've got the limb it's 100% functional and doesn't bring pain with its existence. This dude does bike ride everyday, but in the street. He can't handle the terrain of techy trails.. Electric assist he probably could though.
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


So how is electric assist going to help your friend with the technical aspect of mountain biking? Great, now you have the power to climb a hill. That doesn't mean it will be any easier to absorb the shock of riding over boulders and roots, or give you the skill to put the bike back on line when you get knocked off it.

Fine, e-bikes on singletrack are ok as long as you are disabled. Guess what? Now everyone who wants one just has to say "I'm totally disabled bro!"


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## ou2mame (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm guessing you've never been disabled lol.. If your problems are in the pressure you have to put on your joints to move the bike, and you relieve that pressure by having electric assist, then you can use what pressure you can use on bike control. 

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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

ou2mame said:


> I'm guessing you've never been disabled lol.. If your problems are in the pressure you have to put on your joints to move the bike, and you relieve that pressure by having electric assist, then you can use what pressure you can use on bike control.
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


I'm not one to toss around my problems in an effort to gain support for my argument. So I'll keep them to myself.

How does electric assist relieve pressure on the downhills? Wrist, elbows, collarbone take a lot of force on the way down.


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## ou2mame (Apr 23, 2010)

But you'll throw around other people's missing legs 

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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

ou2mame said:


> But you'll throw around other people's missing legs
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


I did say my problems. 

Moving on, let's say you've won your argument and e-bikes are allowed on trails granted the rider is disabled. How does enforcement work? Our current system relies almost 100% on policing each other. It's easy to enforce no MTB, no hikers, no equestrians. Having to check a condition makes it almost impossible. What is a ranger going to say to someone on an e-bike whom they suspect is not truly disabled? "Excuse me sir, only those with disabilities may ride e-bikes here. I'm going to have to ask you to prove that you are disabled." Behind close doors, this discussion will be had, and the deciders will have to choose between ban them all or allow them all.


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## ou2mame (Apr 23, 2010)

dgw2jr said:


> I did say my problems.
> 
> Moving on, let's say you've won your argument and e-bikes are allowed on trails granted the rider is disabled. How does enforcement work? Our current system relies almost 100% on policing each other. It's easy to enforce no MTB, no hikers, no equestrians. Having to check a condition makes it almost impossible. What is a ranger going to say to someone on an e-bike whom they suspect is not truly disabled? "Excuse me sir, only those with disabilities may ride e-bikes here. I'm going to have to ask you to prove that you are disabled." Behind close doors, this discussion will be had, and the deciders will have to choose between ban them all or allow them all.


Out here we already have exceptions for motorized bikes on some of the trails and to use them you have to get a special permit from the dec, by sending in a letter from your dr.

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## Dopamine (Jan 21, 2010)

ou2mame said:


> One of my friends got shot 5 times, 2 in the foot 2 in the leg and one in the collar bone.. He's pieced together with metal and other crap, and he goes to the gym everyday. He's built, solid muscle. You'd look at him and never know the amount of pain he's in just walking. These things happen. After they put him back together they made him a detective and he got ran over. Again they put him back together, but more pain. So just because somebody looks healthy, that has nothing to do with what they've been through. It's so close minded to assume that if you've got the limb it's 100% functional and doesn't bring pain with its existence. This dude does bike ride everyday, but in the street. He can't handle the terrain of techy trails.. Electric assist he probably could though.
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


If you're friend believes in personal responsibility he shouldn't be getting in over his head in the backcountry. If a motorcycle can take him in further than he can handle, how does he get out in case of mishap? Put search & rescue at risk to bail him out? Your friend should stick to the legal trails he can physically handle. He should also try hiking and horseback riding. Honestly with the disabilities he has neither motorcycling nor mountain biking on extreme terrain sound like safe recreational choices for him.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

ou2mame said:


> But you'll throw around other people's missing legs
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


Well no wonder it's missing if people are throwing them around.....

Not very nice at all.


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## ou2mame (Apr 23, 2010)

Dopamine said:


> If you're friend believes in personal responsibility he shouldn't be getting in over his head in the backcountry. If a motorcycle can take him in further than he can handle, how does he get out in case of mishap? Put search & rescue at risk to bail him out? Your friend should stick to the legal trails he can physically handle. He should also try hiking and horseback riding. Honestly with the disabilities he has neither motorcycling nor mountain biking on extreme terrain sound like safe recreational choices for him.


I live in long Island. There is no back country lol

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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

ou2mame said:


> I live in long Island. There is no back country lol
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


I see. A different environment entirely.

Where I live people get rescued all the time after getting in over their heads. Or their bodies are discovered later. The penalty for failure is very high here.


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## 802spokestoke (Jun 20, 2012)

As is such with many things, I feel the negatives possibilities, outweight the positive ones. I think it'd be fine for someone who is disabled (in whatever form) to take an e-bike and go ride some local loops. That would be great for the sport. It also makes sense to me that such an indidvidual may have a hard time on more technical trails due to added weight and their disability--this instance wouldn't bother anyone. The idea of these things zooming up and down single track frustrated me, but that wouldn't be the case in the above scenario, necessarily. 
But really, who's going to be able to afford one anyway? Rich kids. Nothing against rich kids, but they don't have the best track record. I can see the pov footage now of them throttling these things downhill, blowing out berms, being reckless, and having an unwarranted and unbridled speed advantage over pedaling riders, who may not want to loose the hardworking payoff of a pedal bike. 
My example of a previous attempt to aide the disabled (really the wrong word here) or a person who has a hard time pedaling (in this instance) is the crossbow as I've seen mentioned before. At first, it was manufactured to help people who could not muster the energy to operate a bow. We saw pictures of people in wheelchairs, with loved ones getting out and enjoying nature, awesome. The fact is that now crossbow hunting is slowly morphing archery season into a conundrum rifle season of sorts. My point is that the reasoning makes sense, but as we all know, actual outcome is not always trully projected by good intention. 

Other concerns: 
-As mentioned, this hybrid pedal/motor bike is still a motor bike. But it has pedals. Other advocacy groups may latch on to this as a means to an end for mountain bikes.
-Mountain bike advocacy has been long, slow moving, and hard. It is finally getting somewhere. How will these bikes make progress any smoother? It's a serious wrench in the system.
-If they are banned, people who have spent thousands are going to ride them anyway-no bueno for the sport.


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## 53119 (Nov 7, 2008)

i wouldn't worry about it. the costs should keep any real rider away on any trail. it's the same person who'll by a $3500 boutique builder commuter with custom racks outfitted in a 5th avenue kitsbow kit. one and done.


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## Dougie (Aug 29, 2004)

I see these electric mountain bikes as a flash in the pan. They may sell a few, but there's no way there's going to be enough interest to keep producing them for more than a model year or two. I've still yet to see one on any trail and I ride a lot. I'm thinking that the overwhelming majority of seasoned mountain bikers won't even consider one of these things. 

On the other hand, I do see electric bikes becoming more popular with the urban/street/commuter crowd.


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## ou2mame (Apr 23, 2010)

Electric dh bikes would negate lift service.. 

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## Roaming50 (Apr 30, 2009)

Jayem said:


> A 65 year old will think it's the most awesome thing and feel like they are 20 years younger.
> 
> In regards to the bike above, now people that are too disabled to ride a normal bike have something they can ride. Where do you draw the line? Do those people not deserve to ride trails? Change is inevitable.


This!

e-Bikes are a great development for people with mobility challenges. You may not like it but think about the therapeutic benefits you get when you get away from civilization and get out in the back country/trails. It calms you down, improves your wellbeing, makes you feel better.

Just because an e-bike exists does not mean you are forced to ride it. Just like single-speeds or riders that only ride hard-tails; those that look down on riders of the new 5+ inch travel trail bikes with their rock eating ability to smooth the trail. Is that cheating? Should I still be riding the fully rigid 26er I started on in the early '90s through boulder fields and trails that people today only consider riding on an "endure" rig? Technology evolves.

Electric assist is going to happen and electric regenerative braking will come and there will be more tech integration into the bike than you would care for... computer control adaptive suspension, perhaps self adjusting tire pressures, things I cant even think about now.

You can become a retro grouch or embrace the change! For me I am currently undecided what I want.


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## Dopamine (Jan 21, 2010)

TheNormsk said:


> This!
> 
> e-Bikes are a great development for people with mobility challenges. You may not like it but think about the therapeutic benefits you get when you get away from civilization and get out in the back country/trails. It calms you down, improves your wellbeing, makes you feel better.
> 
> ...


Honestly I think it's delusional to think that motorized vehicles of any sort will ever be allowed in the backcountry. Why you think it's inevitable because suddenly there are "ebikes" makes no sense. You really think the existing horse hiker mtb lobby and the NPS will suddenly allow motorbikes on these trails because "ebikes"? Dream on.


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## Ilyam3 (Nov 21, 2011)

This debate is not about disabled people. It is a tiny percent of riders and believe me the companies are not basing their sales numbers on disabled people riding bikes. And just because person is disabled he is not exempt form general rules. We do not let disabled people drive at 120Mph on the highway or ride jetskies in the pool. So if there is no mopeds on mountain bike trails - it means no. Black and white.

The issue is mountain bike trail access for Mopeds - motorized devices. It has nothing to do with technology. 20 years ago we had 2 stroke engines attached to bikes. Moped is a moped. People will modify them to be more powerful and faster immediately. It will only take one accident at 50mph on the trail to ban access for everyone. 

Enjoy the mopeds on the motocross trails. Electric race cars are not allowed on streets. Only race tracks. Just because they are electric does not exclude them from regulations.


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## Dopamine (Jan 21, 2010)

Gary M. Kaye: Rough Road Ahead: The Electric Bike Battle in New York


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## 1984Volkswagen (Jun 16, 2014)

Just think of how great you will feel when you pedal past one that is broken down, or one that is puffing up a hill!


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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

Hey MtbAZ44, I live and ride in San Diego, mostly PQ but also
other San Diego city run areas. All of those trail heads have signs 
with no motor vehicles allowed.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

ou2mame said:


> I'm partially disabled in my upper body because a deteriorated shoulder joint....


I am sorry to hear about your condition. Clearly it must suck to live like that. However each person needs to learn to live with in their limitations and some activities are just not for you. People that are disabled will often times be limited in the physical activities they can do. There are tools out there that can help disabled people still be active, but that does not mean they are doing the same thing. Case in point. Marathon running.  There are disable people that compete in the big marathons. Many do it on wheelchairs, but guess what... They are not classified as runners because they are not. Of course people wheel chairs (arm powered of course) are somewhat of mix between runners and bikes. Like bikes in that they can coast or accelerate the downhills and can go fast, but are limited by arm strength. Still at is essence it still a fitness activity. 26.2 miles at fast pace in wheelchair is still hard work. However what about electric wheel chairs. Why not let those fully paralyzed compete in a marathon? They just need big battery and start rolling. But where is the challenge in that?


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

JoePAz said:


> I am sorry to hear about your condition. Clearly it must suck to live like that. However each person needs to learn to live with in their limitations and some activities are just not for you. People that are disabled will often times be limited in the physical activities they can do. There are tools out there that can help disabled people still be active, but that does not mean they are doing the same thing. Case in point. Marathon running. There are disable people that compete in the big marathons. Many do it on wheelchairs, but guess what... They are not classified as runners because they are not. Of course people wheel chairs (arm powered of course) are somewhat of mix between runners and bikes. Like bikes in that they can coast or accelerate the downhills and can go fast, but are limited by arm strength. Still at is essence it still a fitness activity. 26.2 miles at fast pace in wheelchair is still hard work. However what about electric wheel chairs. Why not let those fully paralyzed compete in a marathon? They just need big battery and start rolling. But where is the challenge in that?


Hey now, someone might feel offended by your lack of sympathy and excessive use of logic. Might want to dial it back a bit


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

dgw2jr said:


> ..
> Fine, e-bikes on singletrack are ok as long as you are disabled. Guess what? Now everyone who wants one just has to say "I'm totally disabled bro!"


I was riding this weekend with two really strong riders. They kicked my rear on the climbs and I sure felt disabled since I could not keep up. Lacked lung and leg strength to keep up. So I must be disabled and need e-bike. The fact that I set PR on every climb that day and rode fast that alot of other guys is not important...

Sure this a reach, but people have physical limitations. Riding mtn bikes, road bikes, running, hiking are much about pushing your own physical limitations as much as anything.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

JoePAz said:


> I was riding this weekend with two really strong riders. They kicked my rear on the climbs and I sure felt disabled since I could not keep up. Lacked lung and leg strength to keep up. So I must be disabled and need e-bike. The fact that I set PR on every climb that day and rode fast that alot of other guys is not important...
> 
> Sure this a reach, but people have physical limitations. Riding mtn bikes, road bikes, running, hiking are much about pushing your own physical limitations as much as anything.


It's becoming more like Harrison Bergeron's world every day.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

I've been giving this some real thought. I'm not advocating for e-bikes, but I am thinking in practical engineering terms of how I would present an e-bike so that it might be more readily accepted (if it was a project on my desk right now).

IMO, E-bikes could work IF:
1. Power output was limited to human levels (not motorcycle levels)
2. Power output was dependent upon pedal input, not a throttle. No pedal, no power. The motor would only be a power boost to the rider's pedal input. If the battery failed, you could pedal it (and it's extra weight). Some sort of torque monitoring would limit output and "boost" (or "assist", or whatever you want to call it).

I would fully accept the presence of an e-bike fitting that description on a MTB trail. Anything modified would be as illegal as a motorcycle.

-F


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

meh.


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## Scott forty G. (Dec 25, 2009)

Ding Ding Ding!!

No offense to anyone who has responded with their reasoning and philosophy on this thread. But Ilyam here has nailed it right on the head of what i am concern about.

TRAIL ACCESS!!! No trail access no mountain bikes! Electric or Human powered!

There are hundreds of mountain bikers out there right now trying to fight for trail access in your neighborhood NEAR YOU! There are dozens of us fighting for trail access in Wilderness Area where mountain bikes are not allowed.
The e-bikes goes very much against that. Against, the very wording "mechanized transport". These 2 words has a punch in a legal sense that can knock us all out! The ramifications of the e-bike on our trails is huge!



Ilyam3 said:


> Good discussion here
> Opinion: A Secret Trail and an Argument Against E-Bikes - Pinkbike
> There is a thread in general discussion going on.
> 
> ...


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## DannyvG (Apr 21, 2014)

Fleas said:


> IMO, E-bikes could work IF:
> 1. Power output was limited to human levels (not motorcycle levels)
> 2. Power output was dependent upon pedal input, not a throttle. No pedal, no power. The motor would only be a power boost to the rider's pedal input. If the battery failed, you could pedal it (and it's extra weight). Some sort of torque monitoring would limit output and "boost" (or "assist", or whatever you want to call it).
> 
> ...


And that is exactly how they work although the power and speed of which the Bosch Ride+ is capable of is quite a lot. One model has 250W and assists up to 25km/h and another can provide 350W and up to 45km/h. I dont know about the high power version but the "low power" version is considered to be a bicycle and not even a moped in the netherlands. So everybody can ride them according to bicycle regulations. They also only amplify your pedaling power, as soon as you stop pedalling the motor will stop applying power so it is nothing like an electric motorcycle.

Cube Stereo 140 Hybrid SL 27.5 eBike Review | Unplugged


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## Singletrailer (Apr 24, 2014)

In Germany, the 25 km/h version is considered to be a bicycle, while the faster version (which also needs a license plate and proper insurance) is a moped. 250W provide a lot of amplification, so you don't need too much input to climb even steep hills at a reasonable pace. 

My parents recently exchanged their trekking bikes against modern pedelecs. They enjoyed cycling a lot during the last two decades, but now they're approaching their 70th birthdays and health problems kicked in during the last two years. The pedelecs now help them to still ride tours of their usual range. But they don't ride trails, only cycleways. IMHO this is where pedelecs are great and make sense. But in german MTB forums, there's also a great fear that bikes like the Stereo Hybrid will lead to more conflicts on the trails.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

DannyvG said:


> And that is exactly how they work although the power and speed of which the Bosch Ride+ is capable of is quite a lot. One model has 250W and assists up to 25km/h and another can provide 350W and up to 45km/h. I dont know about the high power version but the "low power" version is considered to be a bicycle and not even a moped in the netherlands. So everybody can ride them according to bicycle regulations. They also only amplify your pedaling power, as soon as you stop pedalling the motor will stop applying power so it is nothing like an electric motorcycle.
> 
> Cube Stereo 140 Hybrid SL 27.5 eBike Review | Unplugged


Thank you!

-F

edit: After reading the articles, I've changed my mind. Ebikes should only be allowed in areas designated specifically for ebikes. Those designated areas should not be anywhere that mountain bikes are already permitted.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Nothing wrong with Strava but the idiots who abuse it.

As for electric/motor-bicycles, to each his own I guess, but I would not ride one.


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## pdxmark (Aug 7, 2013)

David R said:


> Fingers crossed the electric bikes are excluded from most trails as they're motor-powered and should be under the same category as a proper motorbike...


I live in the US, 49cc and less is not considered to be licensed motorized transport. Also, there are regulations that define the differences between "gas motor" and "electric motor". No gas powered motors, regardless of piston displacement, can enter State and/or Federally funded trail systems that are not marked specifically for gas powered engines. I have already seen several electric motors climbing hills on trails in my area. The only time an electric motor would be an annoyance, is if the rider was not warning people during rear approach and is not pulling over for people coming uphill.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

MA rider from USA. Most of the areas I ride in say NO motorized vehicles. The ebikes I have seen, in my lbs are VERY heavy, 40-50 pounds. They are also throttle assist, meaning you still have to pedal. How is that heavy a bike going to handle all the tech trails that we have around here. Let alone try to get the front end up over a rock or log. Plus they seem to be $ 4-7 K. I can't see them becoming very popular here. Plus rules already in place not allowing them on trails. I think there will be a very vocal argument against them.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Dopamine said:


> I think we mountain bikers should really distance ourselves from these ebikes. Make it clear they another new separate user class on the trails that are totally different from pedal powered bikes. I just see the anti-bike forces trying to lump ebikes in with mountain bikes and try to get us banned from more trails, or at least not open more trails to us. It is not a bicycle, it is a motorized vehicle, totally different and seperate from mountain bikes - has to be emphasized.


Exactly. I'm not against ebikes. I'm not against ATVs, dirt-bikes, horses, or any other recreational vehicle.

But ebikes are not bikes. They are "mopeds" and we should start calling them that. If you saw a moped on your mountain bike trail you'd be a little put out. Only difference here is that ebikes have quieter motors and a lot more marketing.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

ou2mame said:


> I don't care about electric bikes. They don't bother me, I don't want one... I don't think I'd care if I see one on the trail.. I dunno, they just don't make me feel anything. If people want to be lazy and take the bicycle out of mtbing so be it. Their loss.
> 
> And about disabilities.. There are all kinds of them. You'd be surprised how many people have joint problems but can still ride a bike, but not experience the single track technical trails that we do. But now they can.
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


Most disabilities are bogus. Not to mention you can get disability for just about anything nowadays. Generally nowadays if you are stupid, out of shape, and unemployable you can get disability.

It's like handicap parking. Most of the people who get it could easily walk (and should walk) an extra fifty feet.

Some people who are really disabled, ironically, cannot get disability.


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## Welshboy (Jan 30, 2013)

These electric bikes have been around for a few years, and have their place as well. My parents in law (who are in their late 60's/early 70's) both have one as does the wife (!) each with the baby seat on them. These bikes are more town bikes, and we are lucky that we have a lot of cycle tracks here in north Italy: but saying that I have had a few young'uns trying to race me when I am on the road bike, and it makes me laugh then I just drop them!!! 

But another valid point that has been raised is how the various laws and bye-laws regard them!!! Already here on the cycletracks there are people who just dont respect the rules, ie crossing, other track users, and I have seen a few collisions!!! What we have now with these bikes is people able to sustain their speed (max 25kph) uphill as well. 

As for the new breed of mountain bikes with power, I have already been passed going uphill on a piece of doubletrack by such a bike!!!!Not really humiliating as I was on a SS!!!


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## Corey90 (Aug 2, 2014)

ou2mame said:


> I don't care about electric bikes. They don't bother me, I don't want one... I don't think I'd care if I see one on the trail.. I dunno, they just don't make me feel anything. If people want to be lazy and take the bicycle out of mtbing so be it. Their loss.
> 
> And about disabilities.. There are all kinds of them. You'd be surprised how many people have joint problems but can still ride a bike, but not experience the single track technical trails that we do. But now they can.
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


Not every experience should be able to had easily though, I'd love to experience a "barrel" surfing, but I can't surf and **** scared of sharks. If it was so easy everyone would do it and wouldn't be so special.....same as experiencing amazing mtb trails. We work and train hard to get to a physical state and skill set so we can ride alot of these trails and if e-bikes are going to be allowed on them then it's like footballers taking steroids......it's unfair on the people that work hard to get where they've got.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## circlesuponcircles (May 10, 2011)

Wait, you guys don't think that thing looks fun!? I'd have a blast on that bike! Don't think they should be allowed where dirt bikes are not, though.....


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

TwoNin9r said:


> Here's hoping we'll be fast enough to run them down and give them a nice, "hey, go f**k yourself."


If I heard some motor buzzing behind me, I'm not moving over. If he can pass on his own, he can. I will certainly be telling a ranger what and when.

How long did it take cities to ban Segways from their sidewalks.


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

It should be classified as motorized vehicle, at least if it comes equipped to be legally ridden on roads, via the inclusion of reflectors. Per the definition below, I'd call them motoroized vehicles...

Allowed on trails that allow motorcycles, not allowed on trails that don't...

Now if reflectors are excluded from the product sold to customers, I don't know what to think. Other than e-mountain bikes still suck.

*49 U.S. Code § 30102 - Definitions:*
(6) "motor vehicle" means a vehicle driven or drawn by mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways, but does not include a vehicle operated only on a rail line.


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## OurLegacy (Sep 6, 2014)

New member here so thanks in advance for having me.
What seems to get lost in these debates is exactly what we all (truly) want for our kids/theirs, how to go about creating that legacy and what kind of leadership will get us there..if legacies are even valued anymore in the first place.
#1 and probably most important...kids and most socially agreeable human beings could care less what their friend (potentially or otherwise) brings to the trailhead for the purposes of having a good time in a group atmosphere. It could be a piece of junk, it could be more advanced..these fun loving individuals don't 'time' who gets to the first rest stop the fastest as long as they all get there together (safely). 
#2 (and just as important)...the trail that they all ride on must be sustainably maintained no matter the cost to the individual or their relative impact to the trail. If it has been determined that in 2014 a professional MTBer actually (normally) 'rode' a reasonably powered ebike on that particular trail and caused 'x' more impact than he did riding in the same manner without one...here's your added fee for using an ebike.* 
We will never achieve unity in any off road community without the following:
1) "paying to play" (everybody, due to our indebtedness forever at every level of funding and future tax burdens).. 
and
2) making certain that 'money' is taken off of the table (forever) very early in the courtship of two competing ideals.*
This is all about money, folks as many of you already know. The bicycling industry is a fragile one just like the off road industry. Always has been; always will be. Traditionally (see motorcycles, atvs and now side-by-sides) the strategy has always been to 'divide and conquer' any organized individuals to retain not only market share but to SURVIVE.
When enthusiasts begin to simply work together and figure out strategies to share the same space, guess what?..we need less (cough) 'leadership' not more. Our now collective money goes not to 'conventions' and wrote off lunches with bureaucrats seeking to keep us divided and as many OFF public lands as possible...but to the very legal professionals who can walk and chew gum in the first place (i.e. fight/solve MULTI-USE access issues with both hands tied behind their backs and few 'middlemen' required).
'Division' in this country is a huge money and 'career' maker. A lot of these *"let me make this crystal clear...MTBing is human powered ONLY!"* bicycle companies and non-profit leaders are right now shaking in their boots for one simple reason:
*Most of you have never ridden one.* 
Sure, they have enough die hards around them right now to keep convincing all of you that "_by gosh...and you never should!"_*..YET YOUR KIDS AND SOMEDAY THEIRS WILL CARE LESS WHAT DAD AND MOM 'WOULDN'T DO' OR WHO THEY 'WOULDN'T TALK TO' AT THE TRAILHEAD!*
It's not that many of these people 'hate' ebikes..it's that ebikes represent 'the future' and 'the past' has been pretty darn good to them in terms of either sales, non-profit leadership salaries/unheard of side benefits/lucrative relationships/travel/swag/notoriety...and understandably...they're not all that really keen on giving any of this 'up' simply for the sake of the 'good of the sport' they all frankly based their reputations around.

Bottom line...the people presently leading the charge against electric powered two wheel transportation 'anywhere' care absolutely nothing about your namesake's ability to ride tomorrow or for any of us to band together so that dream (legacy) is a reality that we can be proud of (hopefully) long before we leave this earth.

It's a slap in the face I know..but one doesn't have to look too far in American society to find many others working closely with government agencies and corporate America to achieve the same end (divide/conquer and reap the rewards).

Wake up, folks. it's your kids were talking about.


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## Chester4 (Aug 12, 2014)

Well I don't know about all that ^^ . But I will say this: the ebikes are clearly being designed for the mtb trails we all ride, I mean they are using the same components.. And the idea that new Ebike only trails would start popping up all over the place to accommodate is wishful at best. Having said that, the lazy people that decide to ride them WILL be on your trail eventually. So while we may not agree with it whatsoever, it would be foolish of us to ignore the issue. By being proactive about the problems that can and will arise, I think we can prevent these problems before they start. Just saying we don't agree and hoping it goes away will fail 100% of the time.. Example: instead of posting a NO EBIKE sign at the trailhead, Why not just regulate the days or times they can ride them. Is it completely fair to them, no. But they should have thought about that when they decided to ride those chEat Bikes..


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## Joe_Re (Jan 10, 2011)

Most disturbing this is.... I have no problem with them existing. They are a motorized vehicle, a cycle with a motor, a motorcycle, all of them. They should not be anywhere that does not allow motorized vehicles, which as far as I'm aware are not all, but the vast majority of trails in MA. Even the rail trails say "no motorized vehicles".

Also, I'm about to have a kid and he will power his wheeled toys. His hover board though, that's different.


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## OurLegacy (Sep 6, 2014)

I picked up my eMTB for 2K.
Your kids will pick these up 'used' for much less and gladly go ride with their more 'liberal' friends as opposed to their 'old fashioned' Dad or Mom who are militantly against such a thing...*no discussion allowed* (see above).
Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to get them into MTBing if they look at you _now_ as nothing but another crotchety old man who stubbornly demands that the trails you both 'used to ride' (together) suddenly become the place that you go get await from him or her. 
I'd hate to lose time with my child over 'a bike' or a 'principal' that some leader in the MTBing community demands that you adhere to as the price of admission to 'the club'. :nono:


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## OurLegacy (Sep 6, 2014)

...correction...you can bring your kid along to the ride...just make certain that he never utters the word 'electric' in front of the powers that be or anyone else in attendance...or you're *BOTH* 'gone'...:nono::bluefrown:


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## Joe_Re (Jan 10, 2011)

Troll. If you knew what you were talking about I'd be upset. Also, finger wagging should be reserved for the dance floor.


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## OurLegacy (Sep 6, 2014)

I'm just the guy hoping to sell your child a used electric mountain bike (soon) if you have no interesting in riding one yourself or with him/her on your local trail.
His or her friends *will* have them and all three of us will be lobbying hard soon (with myself) to access the public lands which we _both_ possess the right to ride.

If you feel so strongly about the matter that you would rather him or her ride with _me_ instead of _you_ (and enjoy sitting across from the both of us in court)...I can't argue with how your family dynamics work themselves out and don't desire to.

Just _ride_ one guys and gals. You might not only _like_ it but notice that you actually are tearing up the trails _less _and seeing more for whatever energy you can muster over a full day's worth of riding.

Just don't let some of the others up here _see_ you actually giving one a try.


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## OurLegacy (Sep 6, 2014)

..by the way guys (and gals)...how many young people would you guess that we've made (good) friends with over the years who were saddled with die hard single track motorcyclist fathers that couldn't get over the fact that their children preferred riding atvs? 

We're riding with/learning from/teaching these kids of all ages and having the times of our lives...while their father and his 'buddy' are chasing each other down their 'exclusive' single track after they couldn't understand what had just happened (and obviously didn't care).

Sad but true.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

The problem with the world today is that everyone thinks that they should be able to do everything or anything anyone else can, physical limitations or restrictions be damned. Wake up people, we are not all equal, some are better at some things than others, we all can't run a 100m in <11 seconds, we all can't drive an F1 car like Hamilton, We can't all design rocket ships.... You do what you can within your limits, don't fvck everyone elses fun or thing up because you want to do it despite not having the natural ability or physical ability to do so.

E-Bikes should stay where they were designed for, as pedal assist for commuters to help reduce traffic congestion and emissions. The small percentage of people who would use an e-MTB in a respectful fashion would be very limited, these are clearly marketed at the ever growing, lazy, overweight N.American populous.



JoePAz said:


> I was riding this weekend with two really strong riders. They kicked my rear on the climbs and I sure felt disabled since I could not keep up. Lacked lung and leg strength to keep up. So I must be disabled and need e-bike. The fact that I set PR on every climb that day and rode fast that alot of other guys is not important...
> 
> Sure this a reach, but people have physical limitations. Riding mtn bikes, road bikes, running, hiking are much about pushing your own physical limitations as much as anything.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

E-mountain bikes are alrady being promoted by mtb magazines.

MBA published a feature story about Nathan Rennie, the motocross superstar, and how he competes in DH mtb races. He has a 4500W Dh mtb that he uses for practice runs in Southridge, and boasts of being able to practice the DH course 5 times for every one time the other racers who use the shuttle truck do. 

The magazines editor, "Jimmy Mac' , is resigning from his position, and there is some talk about this being related to Hi-Torque publications decision to not only tout e-mtb's, but to publish an entire new, separate magazine for them. 

Dirt Rag magazine also published an article on them recently, and to me they tried to depict the issue as open for debate regarding the potential benefits of e-mtb's. WTF, Dirt Rag?

So, when you have major publications in effect shilling for the e-mtb market, it IS gonna be a fight.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

OurLegacy said:


> ..by the way guys (and gals)...how many young people would you guess that we've made (good) friends with over the years who were saddled with die hard single track motorcyclist fathers that couldn't get over the fact that their children preferred riding atvs?
> 
> We're riding with/learning from/teaching these kids of all ages and having the times of our lives...while their father and his 'buddy' are chasing each other down their 'exclusive' single track after they couldn't understand what had just happened (and obviously didn't care).
> 
> Sad but true.


 Where do you pedal? Here in MA, there may be 2 legal places where you can ride motorized vehicles on public land, this is not the western part of the country. No motorized vehicles allowed where I ride, period. 5 posts ?, I dare you to name your employer or business related to your electric motorcycle business. All the illegal atv's and motorcycles just rip up all the trails and double track. You will not find any friends here.


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## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

if it gets people outside and doing something, cool. I am not so stuck up that it has to be my way or no way.


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## carverboy (Sep 5, 2009)

OurLegacy.
A bike with a motor is not a MTB plain and simple. Have fun riding them at one of the OHV trails,but don't ever think you will legally ride a MTB trail!
I'm pretty complacent when it comes to most social/political issues. 
Having said that I will fight tooth and nail to keep you off MTB trails. I have a strong suspicion many others will step forward to do the same.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

STRAVA! At least I yell it out before I bunny-hop hikers and shove slower riders off the trail.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

OurLegacy said:


> I picked up my eMTB for 2K.
> Your kids will pick these up 'used' for much less and gladly go ride with their more 'liberal' friends as opposed to their 'old fashioned' Dad or Mom who are militantly against such a thing...*no discussion allowed* (see above).
> Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to get them into MTBing if they look at you _now_ as nothing but another crotchety old man who stubbornly demands that the trails you both 'used to ride' (together) suddenly become the place that you go get await from him or her.
> I'd hate to lose time with my child over 'a bike' or a 'principal' that some leader in the MTBing community demands that you adhere to as the price of admission to 'the club'. :nono:


If you live in rural Wyoming or Montana or someplace with a low population density, I don't see any reason why you should'nt be able to ride your electric dirt bike on trails that aran't specifically marked as non-motorized access only.

But here in SoCal, anybody riding an E-bike on a public multi-use trail will be cited if they are caught.

That's just the way the ball rolls, you don't have to like it, but you do have to respect the laws.

So, for your sake, and for mine as well, I hope you do live in Wyoming, because in SoCal the number of trails being closed to just bicycles is outnumbering the ones being opened up to regular bicycles, and injecting e-bikes into the mix will for sure provide the bike-haters the added ammo they can use to close even more trails.

you will not find any friends in the mtb community, unless they are paid shills for e-bikes. We know how tenuous our access to the trails we can legally ride already is, and some of us are a bit too old to play cops and robbers with CDFW officers.

They ain't just checking fishing and hunting licenses anymore.


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## DannyvG (Apr 21, 2014)

I just got back into riding mountainbikes a half year ago after a 4 year hiatus, before that I mostly did downhill (abroad) and some cross country nearby.
But now I can only ride nearby and only have the time to go once (maybe twice) a week. But most of the times it is just to exhausting or I am going slower then I would like and it hasnt improved much since I started again. Also when it starts to get colder again outside my asthma doesnt help either.
For me mountainbiking is about having fun and I have fun when I go fast on certain (technical) sections of trail but most of the time it is just suffering to get to the next fun part.
So now I am thinking about buying a e-mtb, the type that only gives you assistance up to 15mph and is considered to be a bicycle in the Netherlands. I just hope to have more fun when I do go riding because I can cover the dull parts without suffering and can get up to speed easier before a fun technical sector.
Why would it be considered cheating because I am not doing any competitions or anything. Also I dont rip up the trails more then another mountainbiker that rides multiple times a week and I still wont be the fastest on the track.

quote from dirtmag


> So, to 'the point' of mountain biking&#8230; well, it's fun isn't it? I'm not against the clock; I'm alone in the woods with a bike. I've been told a few times that the bike is cheating. Who exactly am I cheating? How do you cheat at fun? The speed, grip and stability of this bike make me laugh out loud, alone, in the woods. That's not cheating, that's how mountain biking should be.


Cube Stereo 140 Hybrid SL 27.5 eBike Review | Unplugged


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

I just got back into walking about a year ago. I haven't gotten any better at it but I would like to get to the fun parts as soon as possible so I got a car to help with that. Just one of those ones that only assists when you push the gas pedal and tops out at 85mph. It's not cheating because I'm not walking competitively. It's what walking should be!


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## ou2mame (Apr 23, 2010)

You have to realize that riding a pedal assisted bicycle and riding a bicycle are severely different than walking and driving in so many ways...

Anyways, i can see this picking up in fat bikes.. Imagine a front wheel assisted fat bike in the snow.. 2wd! I've seen a 2wd bicycle with a cable going to the front hub, but that didn't work too well..

Anyways, *****ing about it on a forum isn't going to do anything. It's up to the lbs' who will push them out the door.. If they're legitimate mountain bikers they won't carry them. If they're just in it for a quick buck, thats another story.

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

My point is e-biking is motorized. Just like driving a car that does 85mph or a moped that only does 25mph. Walking and mountain biking are human powered activities. If you don't enjoy the human power part of it then accept it and call it what it is. A dirt bike. A moto. And keep it where motos are allowed and away from where they are not. 

The shops will sell what they are told to sell because it's in the contract. If they can get the price down to typical price of a QBP fat bike, they will sell like crazy. I don't know why but I just have that feeling. The equestrians and HOHA will have a field day and our final nail will be driven in to the coffin. The industry will have made a few bucks to satisfy the shareholders momentarily and the MTB haters will have the trails back to themselves and we will be left to reminisce about the good old days when we were allowed to ride our bikes in the woods.


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## DannyvG (Apr 21, 2014)

dgw2jr said:


> My point is e-biking is motorized. Just like driving a car that does 85mph or a moped that only does 25mph. Walking and mountain biking are human powered activities. If you don't enjoy the human power part of it then accept it and call it what it is. A dirt bike. A moto. And keep it where motos are allowed and away from where they are not.


But you still need the human power with the ebike, else the motor wont do anything. So I wouldnt call it a dirt bike. Also the power levels of dirtbikes are in another league. 25kW is easily obtained with a 125cc or bigger motorcycle which is already a 100x more then the 0.25kW that a ebike can deliver.
What will a ebike do that a regular mtb cant? The only thing is that you can ride longer and a bit faster on slow sections. You cant suddenly go 80mph and rip the track to pieces. Also noise and enviromental issues are not a problem with ebikes.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

Finally, the A.S.S. weighs in....

The Angry Singlespeeder: Will e-bikes short circuit mountain biking? | Mountain Bike Review


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Old Ray said:


> Finally, the A.S.S. weighs in....
> 
> The Angry Singlespeeder: Will e-bikes short circuit mountain biking? | Mountain Bike Review


Good article. I think it's awesome that the editor of Bicycling Magazine stepped down because they were insistent on promoting e-bikes, hats off to Jimmy Mcllvain for sticking to his principals!

The A.S.S. is right on target IMO, I've been saying this in one form or another since first hearing about these electric motorcycles with pedals attached to them-



> But to me, trying to blur the lines of categorization, cry out "discrimination" or ask "what will old and disabled people do?" is just a way for e-bike entrepreneurs to get their foot jammed in the door of non-motorized mountain bike trail access so they can rake in maximum profitability.


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## Ilyam3 (Nov 21, 2011)

Nice discussion and great article by Single speeder. 
I have an impression that all the supporters of e-bikes are paid by the industry and come here to instigate the discussion. Most of hem make no sense... Like the dude above ( OurLegacy ) saying the kids will ride motorbikes instead of regular bikes... yea right... My kids are begging me to ride mountain bikes with them.. if anything the future is in using your body more and have kids more active and fit vs pushing buttons on mopeds. That's why we do not see runners on segways but more and more people running marafones (even with disabilities)

Believe me, I like motocross and go cart riding. My kids love it too.. But they are smart enough to separate those activities and figure out what equipment belongs on what track. And at the end of the day they still want to run outside and play soccer, catch or ride a regular bike and come home tired with pink cheeks. No e-bike can replace that.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Old people will ride E-bikes and they don't give an F, like honeybadgers.


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## Ilyam3 (Nov 21, 2011)

With all the hype by paid supporters I had to see what it's all about,. so I went and checked out some of those pedal assist bikes at the store and rode in the lot and dirt lot around the store. I was really surprised how lame those things are.

- First - they are heavy - really heavy. 50-75 LB
- That makes them clumsy and hard to handle - I will never ride one on a technical trail ( it is that bad) and i tried to like it
- That makes the battery not last - 20 miles of lame riding without pushing, if pushing hard it will be really low (full throttle, major uphill, tech terrain going all out)
- That makes pedaling it with dead battery - impossible
- Second - Expensive - 4-5 K for a mid range one
- Battery is very expensive and needs to be locked to prevent stealing
- Tough to secure if using for commuting
- my $200 hard tail is better for commuting and I can lock it anywhere
- They are governed to 20MPH - that kills the fun even on the road (where this thing can actually move) - I can go faster on road bike
- Third - controversy on access - banned everywhere - even some bike paths and cities, so I have to be very limited in use
- therefore all the salespeople I talked to are not happy to sell them
- demand is really low according to them and the only people they see buying it in Us are people who do not have a car - but even they are looking at scooters instead.

So now I want to ride some of the super powerful - throttle equipped electric bikes going 60 mph+ - maybe they are more fun..( if fun is the name of the game) but then again if I can only ride it on the motocross trails why not get a motocross bike.. I suspect it is still more fun...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The real question is...will ebikes be available in all three wheel sizes? Also, how will this be dealt w/r to Strava segments? Will there be ebike segs and regular bike segs? As they long as they work these 2 issues out, I am ok with.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

I'm really surprised we haven't seen more mopeds on MTB trails. They have gotten cheaper with low priced tank kits and kits to put a weedwhip engine on a bike. You can probably convert a bicycle to gas power for as little at $100. 

I've seen plenty of these on the road, and quite a few on no motorized vehicle rail trails. Some guys are smart and use them to cover lots of ground between other users, when they switch off the engine and coast on by, only to start up again after passing. 

Most of the time they are converted cruisers or cheap walmart full suspension MTBs. 

I have never seen a moped on an MTB trail.

If this new generation of e-bike was selling for $500, I might be concerned, but I think we're safe for at least another couple of years.


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## Burnt-Orange (Dec 10, 2008)

I want an E bike so I can feel dope like Lance


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## ou2mame (Apr 23, 2010)

We have a problem with dirt bikes on the trails, but I've never seen a an electric bike or mtb with a 2 stroke. I do see them on the street because I live in a rich beach community on the north shore of long Island where people have plenty of disposable income.. But honestly I just don't see 5k bikes in the trails, nevermind electric ones. Maybe that will change, but i don't see how a dude pedaling less is going to affect me in any way. If i had a front motor on my fat bike, would that impact the trail system at all because I'm pedaling less up hills? Seriously I don't get the controversy. I wish whatever company makes these things would pay for my indifference, where do I sign up? 

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Good article. I think it's awesome that the editor of Bicycling Magazine stepped down because they were insistent on promoting e-bikes, hats off to Jimmy Mcllvain for sticking to his principals!
> 
> The A.S.S. is right on target IMO, I've been saying this in one form or another since first hearing about these electric motorcycles with pedals attached to them-


It was mountain Bike Action, just to keep it straight.....but yeah, Jimmy Mac shows some backbone there. When you look at MBA's parent company, Hi-Torque Publications, you get that MBA is put out by a company that was first and foremost a moto magazine publisher to begin with, so their slide into pushing e-bikes is kinda not surprising.

What blows me away is the article in Dirt Rag.............a supposedly grass-roots, 'core' cycling mag. They end their article, their last paragraph (which usually summarizes or states outright any editorial intent on the part of the magazine) with this quote from none other than Gary Fisher, arguably the "father" of mountain biking:

"It takes 10 years for just about anything to be accepted". He goes on to mention the decade it took for suspension forks, full suspension, different frame materials to be accepted.

Then, he is quoted in a way to at least infer that he is all gung-ho for e-bikes: "Just relax and hit it right on time, and your'e gonna hit the _early adapters_ at the beginning. There are going to be more people having fun, there are going to be more people buying our bikes! This whole sport is going to be bigger! I think it's going to be great".

Not a word about all of the concerns regarding access issues, as if everything will just sort itself out.

Yeah. Just like it did for Gary and crew up there in Marin.


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## DannyvG (Apr 21, 2014)

Old Ray said:


> Not a word about all of the concerns regarding access issues, as if everything will just sort itself out.


What are the access issues? instead of trying to portray them as motorcycles you could do the opposite and portray them as bicycles and create the same acceptance as for non-assisted mountainbikes. In europe they are bicycles according to the law when they have <250W and assist <25kph also they shouldnt be able to ride by themselves but only when pedalling power is applied. The bikes that can ride without pedalling or assist up to 45kph are considered mopeds and need insurance and helmets and probably are not allowed in the forests. But in the netherlands almost all forests are government owned and are open to all hikers and cyclists and thus also the pedelec bikes.

The point remains that the pedelec bikes (<250W and <15mph) cant do more then a mountainbike. The only difference is that they can be faster uphill or on slower sections but you dont suddenly beat everyone on a track or wreck a track (250W isnt enough for that).

And by the way I dont work in the bicycle industry or have any financial interest in pedelec bikes.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

carverboy said:


> A bike with a motor is not a MTB plain and simple. Have fun riding them at one of the OHV trails,but don't ever think you will legally ride a MTB trail!
> I'm pretty complacent when it comes to most social/political issues.
> Having said that I will fight tooth and nail to keep you off MTB trails. I have a strong suspicion many others will step forward to do the same.


^
This.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

DannyvG said:


> What are the access issues? instead of trying to portray them as motorcycles you could do the opposite and portray them as bicycles and create the same acceptance as for non-assisted mountainbikes. In europe they are bicycles according to the law when they have <250W and assist <25kph also they shouldnt be able to ride by themselves but only when pedalling power is applied. The bikes that can ride without pedalling or assist up to 45kph are considered mopeds and need insurance and helmets and probably are not allowed in the forests. But in the netherlands almost all forests are government owned and are open to all hikers and cyclists and thus also the pedelec bikes.
> 
> The point remains that the pedelec bikes (<250W and <15mph) cant do more then a mountainbike. The only difference is that they can be faster uphill or on slower sections but you dont suddenly beat everyone on a track or wreck a track (250W isnt enough for that).
> 
> nd by the way I dont work in the bicycle industry or have any financial interest in pedelec bikes.


Access issues for bicycles on trails vary a lot region to region. Where I live in San Diego county, mere human-powered bikes are blocked from more than half the singletrack trails in many areas, and all the singletrack in others.

Adding a motor-assist bike to the mix would kill access for us.

Try this: ask the Sierra Club why they oppose bicycles on all of the PCT, not just the designated 'wilderness' sections, and on all trails, in general. After they tell you why, maybe you will get it.

But just for yucks, while yer at it, ask them if they dig your cool new e-mountain bike.


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## gmats (Apr 15, 2005)

cyclelicious said:


> Manufacturers won't make them if people won't buy them ... the reality is people are buying them.


Very good statement there.

This same kind of situation occurred with the slopes (skiing/snow boarding) surfing (surfers, long boarders, tow in surfing, SUP surfing, body boarding) and skateboarding (to name a few). We can't avoid it, it will come. Haters and friction will only fragment what we love to do. Working together like a neighborhood I think is the only way. I personally don't agree with having them on the trails but if it gets people out riding isn't that what we are all trying to do (get out and away from the stresses of life and enjoy the outdoors)? If we hate them (the bikes) and the people (just because they're riding them), then right away there'll be rift and seems that won't help anyone. Remember, many of us are responsible mountain bikers but we often associated with "those irresponsible, reckless guys". How does that feel??? Instead, what if we all just start saying "why can't we all just get along" and treat them like the long lost cousins that just think a little different?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

DannyvG said:


> What are the access issues? instead of trying to portray them as motorcycles you could do the opposite and portray them as bicycles and create the same acceptance as for non-assisted mountainbikes. In europe they are bicycles according to the law when they have <250W and assist <25kph also they shouldnt be able to ride by themselves but only when pedalling power is applied. The bikes that can ride without pedalling or assist up to 45kph are considered mopeds and need insurance and helmets and probably are not allowed in the forests. But in the netherlands almost all forests are government owned and are open to all hikers and cyclists and thus also the pedelec bikes.
> 
> The point remains that the pedelec bikes (<250W and <15mph) cant do more then a mountainbike. The only difference is that they can be faster uphill or on slower sections but you dont suddenly beat everyone on a track or wreck a track (250W isnt enough for that).
> 
> And by the way I dont work in the bicycle industry or have any financial interest in pedelec bikes.


 Let them ride them in the EU. Let them ride them in the Netherlands and where there are not so many access issues as in the USA. They have a motor. Not allowed where I ride in MA. Butt out of my riding areas where access is not always a sure thing. We don't want them here, GET IT ?


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

leeboh said:


> Let them ride them in the EU. Let them ride them in the Netherlands and where there are not so many access issues as in the USA. They have a motor. Not allowed where I ride in MA. Butt out of my riding areas where access is not always a sure thing. We don't want them here, GET IT ?


I think from reading some of the posts in this thread that there is not much awareness of how tenuous trail access is in some places, like here, in San Diego county.

We have a very delicate situation here, where ALL other trail user groups are tolerating bikes on multi-use trails, but just barely. Motorized bikes would be the nail in the access coffin.

I personally have zero problem with the concept, but I know that it would kill bike access here if/when these e-bikes start showing up on local trails.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

The issue in Utah is traffic. Park City on the weekend is a nightmare with hikers and bikers lined up in both directions on a single track trail. E-bikes will exacerbate this problem by an order of magnitude and the other user groups will have all the ammo they need to get bikes banned.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Fact is, these new "assisted" mountain bikes are just another way to help the overweight and lazy world "participate" when they shouldn't be able to unless they're willing to do it like it should, under their own power. Don't get me wrong, I think that these new electric, hybrid, whatever you want to call them bikes are fantastic, for what they ere originally designed for, people who commute/use a bike as transport, on roads and gravel roads, they DO NOT belong on trails, unless specifically designed for them.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

LOL: Should Trolling Motors Be Allowed in Kayak Tourneys? ~ Payne's Paddle Fish


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

gmats said:


> ... but if it gets people out riding isn't that what we are all trying to do (get out and away from the stresses of life and enjoy the outdoors)?


 Actually, no. I don't want more people out on the trails, thank you. 
If I wanted to socialize I'd go to the bar. If I want to be surrounded by people I don't know, I'll go to a mall. I ride to get away from people and the fitness that I have earned over the years allows me to pedal the f- away from them.


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## Roy Miller (Sep 19, 2007)

*Watch out for the Grey Hairs*

Jayem you are so right. I've been riding for 20 plus years and hope to get in another 20 or so. By that time I'll be in my 80s and will accept any assistance that is available. We're all pretty hard core now but there comes an inevitable decline as we age. We age at different rates and the more we exercise the more we delay it but it comes to get everyone. I for one have no qualms about any technological advantage I can add to my bike. I already have Disc brakes, TALAS (Travel adjustable) fork, Dropper Seat post, Sticky rubber tires just to name a few. You bet I'll be out there rippin it up


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## shining_trapezoid (Mar 24, 2014)

Deth to muthafukkin E-bikes!
If I see somebody riding one I'm-a fuk 'im up!


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## gmats (Apr 15, 2005)

jugdish said:


> Actually, no. I don't want more people out on the trails, thank you.
> If I wanted to socialize I'd go to the bar. If I want to be surrounded by people I don't know, I'll go to a mall. I ride to get away from people and the fitness that I have earned over the years allows me to pedal the f- away from them.


That's cool. Everyone's got their own agenda. Unless you own your own land and have your own trails, we all have to share our trails. I'm with you in that I do believe in earning the rides through the climbs. However, by saying "no. I don't want more people out on the trails, thank you." isn't going to help because there was a day someone said that years ago when you and I started riding and adding to the traffic. It's unfortunate and it will happen with or without e-bikes. It's inevitable with the rise in population, the increase in congestion and the need and want for many to get an "escape" with the addition of technology. It all comes down to responsible use of technology. Creating a rift between "us" and "them" as I see it will only make things worse. Want it or not want it is one thing, my concern is if we hate, it'll only make things worse.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

gmats said:


> That's cool. Everyone's got their own agenda. Unless you own your own land and have your own trails, we all have to share our trails. I'm with you in that I do believe in earning the rides through the climbs. However, by saying "no. I don't want more people out on the trails, thank you." isn't going to help because there was a day someone said that years ago when you and I started riding and adding to the traffic. It's unfortunate and it will happen with or without e-bikes. It's inevitable with the rise in population, the increase in congestion and the need and want for many to get an "escape" with the addition of technology. It all comes down to responsible use of technology. Creating a rift between "us" and "them" as I see it will only make things worse. Want it or not want it is one thing, my concern is if we hate, it'll only make things worse.


If we want the hikers and equestrians to continue tolerating us we need to create that rift. I mean if we MTBers are having this debate about e-bikes on the trails, how do you think the other user groups are going to handle it? They already see the bicycle as an impure machine that allows us lazy mountain bikers access to wilderness we would not be able to reach on foot. I know it's hypocritical of them considering equestrians enslave another living organism to do the work, but they have the upper hand because "they were here first". We've made many deals with many devils and the terms of the contract are that we do more than our fair share of trail work, yield to everyone, and power our own way uncomplemented.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

dgw2jr said:


> If we want the hikers and equestrians to continue tolerating us we need to create that rift. I mean if we MTBers are having this debate about e-bikes on the trails, how do you think the other user groups are going to handle it? They already see the bicycle as an impure machine that allows us lazy mountain bikers access to wilderness we would not be able to reach on foot. I know it's hypocritical of them considering equestrians enslave another living organism to do the work, but they have the upper hand because "they were here first". We've made many deals with many devils and the terms of the contract are that we do more than our fair share of trail work, yield to everyone, and power our own way uncomplemented.


^^^ All true. Plus, now that there are several credible evidence-based studies on trail tread impact that have shown that our soft rubber, human-powered tires impact the trail surface no more , and sometimes less, than boot soles and always have far less impact than horse hooves, the last thing we need is the introduction of this type of powered 'bicycle' .

We mtb riders have plenty of haters out there already, and they are basically at the end of the line when it comes to rationale for opposing our presence.

The promotion of powered bicycles accessing those same trails would for sure be seized upon as another opportunity to lump all "bicycles" together, and make for another attempt to ban us all from the trails.

Who knows...next time, the haters might just win.

The more I think about it, the more I think e-bikes are a really good idea for pavement commuters, and a really bad idea for multiple use trails.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Old Ray said:


> The more I think about it, the more I think e-bikes are a really good idea for pavement commuters


I'm not so sure about that either. Aside from inclement weather I think traffic danger is the #1 reason people don't cycle to work, and because e-bikes can't keep pace with traffic they're no better, or safer than bicycles in that regard.

The U.S. needs to (but won't) invest in infrastructure that supports cyclists, and maybe even potential e-cyclists.


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## WA-CO (Nov 23, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> The U.S. needs to (but won't) invest in infrastructure that supports cyclists, and maybe even potential e-cyclists.


^So true.

I live in a fairly cycling friendly city and the animosity towards people on bicycles (not necessarily cyclists) is remarkable. I see it in the paper every day.

I think an e-bike could be a way for those with limited fitness to get out on a bike, but if with one, in most cities in the US, you have your work cut out for you.

1. A route with minimal traffic can be pretty tough. It takes some mapping and work. Have you ever looked at a particular intersection and thought to yourself "how the hell would you ride a bike through this and not get yourself killed?" Commuting really gains you a perspective.
2. Your destination may not have a way to safely store your bike. Ortlieb bags aren't cheap, and if they get stolen, they are even MORE expensive.
3. Your destination may not have a way to change/clean up. Some places to, but most do not.
4. Respect/courtesy from drivers can be hit or miss. Some states/drivers are quite accommodating but I've heard some real horror stories.

So if an e-bike is an enabler to those who want to commute, bravo. Otherwise, as others have stated, our relationship with the "entitled" trail users is pretty tenuous. Ebikes could really endanger it. Folks won't differentiate between ebikes and non-ebikes. They are bikes, and in some cases, they already hate us.


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

gmats said:


> That's cool. Everyone's got their own agenda. Unless you own your own land and have your own trails, we all have to share our trails. I'm with you in that I do believe in earning the rides through the climbs. However, by saying "no. I don't want more people out on the trails, thank you." isn't going to help because there was a day someone said that years ago when you and I started riding and adding to the traffic. It's unfortunate and it will happen with or without e-bikes. It's inevitable with the rise in population, the increase in congestion and the need and want for many to get an "escape" with the addition of technology. It all comes down to responsible use of technology. Creating a rift between "us" and "them" as I see it will only make things worse. Want it or not want it is one thing, my concern is if we hate, it'll only make things worse.


 I'm fairly certain I don't have an agenda.

You are correct though, all the trails I ride are multi use and I happily share those trails. Regardless of how I may come off here, I'm one smiley MF'er on trail in regards to other users on or off bikes. But to assume I, or others "want" more trail users is hilarious. To assume that I, or others want to encourage more trail use or the imagined conflict that would surely result by inviting another form of highly questionable user is mind boggling.

Have I seen a huge increase in the number of riders on trail since the early 90's when I started, yup. Is it inevitable that we see an increase in the number of trail users in the years to come, probably. I will begrudgingly accept that (not that I have much of a say&#8230; ) in the form of users already allowed on multi-use trails. Even considering and accepting that I added to the number of trail users back in the day it doesn't change my mind on motorized vs. non-motorized trail use.

I've got to add that I'm highly skeptical of the masses or "cyclists" being able to use technology responsibly. IMO, part of the "escape" is escaping technology. That being said, if folks would like to use motor assisted cycles there are plenty of jeep trails and OVH trails that allow you to get into the backcountry, have at it.

Lastly, I think by smoothing over the "rift" between e-cyclists and mountain bikers you are automatically creating a rift between "us" and those other user groups that are already established. That, IMO will jeopardize access.

In the end... this.v



carverboy said:


> A bike with a motor is not a MTB plain and simple.
> I'm pretty complacent when it comes to most social/political issues.
> Having said that I will fight tooth and nail to keep you off MTB trails. I have a strong suspicion many others will step forward to do the same.


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## Scott forty G. (Dec 25, 2009)

I heard from a few peeps that the last Interbike, the buzz were the ebikes and Trek or Felt was leading the way...


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Scott forty G. said:


> I heard from a few peeps that the last Interbike, the buzz were the ebikes and Trek or Felt was leading the way...


Not surprising at all. Mountain bikes are as good as they are gonna get. The next logical step from the industry perspective is to throw on a motor. Revenue growth continues and everyone gets to keep their jobs, beards, and flannel.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Yup, and then the fat and unfit get to go pretend to be the next Vandeham, Bearclaw, Peat, Graves etc and either injures someone else, themselves or have a massive heart attack and block the trail, either way costing the tax paying public some form of grief 



dgw2jr said:


> Not surprising at all. Mountain bikes are as good as they are gonna get. The next logical step from the industry perspective is to throw on a motor. Revenue growth continues and everyone gets to keep their jobs, beards, and flannel.


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## Tricker Joe (Dec 17, 2010)

My main concern is that Strava KOMs being tainted by E-bike riders. They need their own E-Strava. I have no hatred towards the E-bike I would love to give one a try. I know that if I were to show up for my local group ride with one, most of my freinds would laugh at me then ask to ride it. Is it to late to trademark E-Strava?


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## iceboxsteve (Feb 22, 2012)

Tricker Joe said:


> My main concern is that Strava KOMs being tainted by E-bike riders.


That's your big concern...



Tricker Joe said:


> They need their own E-Strava.


...and your big fix?

Thankfully there are well-connected and reasonable human beings in this thread. E-bikes are definitely going to be something of an issue. Where I am the local advocacy groups have denounced them and it looks like most land managers agree they are motorized vehicles. However, the industry does make a pretty penny off them. And they do open up those fat lazy people to the market. So I expect the industry to do what corporations do, try to make a buck. Instead of sticking to their morals and roots, which happens to be ****ing pedaling a goddamn bike.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Does anyone else think e-bikes are like playing basketball on a Segway? The Segway "assists" you up and down the court but you still have to shoot the ball yourself!


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## Grimgrin (Sep 15, 2014)

Lot's of pride wrapped up in this thing. I'm content to watch this cookie crumble on its own.

It's a fad at best, and is not going to jeopardize the life or trail access of mountain biking. I'm calling it now, that aside from your occasional e-bike user on some pretty mild singletrack (with whatever their reasonings/ motivation is to ride an e-bike), there will not be a sudden explosion of wild handicapped senior citizens cutting rooster tails and terrorizing pedestrians at your local trail or public land.

E-bikes have very narrow applications and buying one grants the consumer the worst of both worlds, motorcycle and bicycle, at a price that could have paid for a high end contender in either category.


Bottom line, this will not have nearly the impact everyone thinks it will have. I feel like what most people are actually afraid of is feeling invalidated by a machine that makes breathing hard obsolete.


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## OLx6 (Feb 5, 2011)

No matter what happens with e-bikes, those who ride under their own power will always have stronger bodies. IMO after the good feel this is the best benefit of mountain biking.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

I've yet to encounter somebody on an e-bike on any of our local multi-use trails in San diego but mtb access is continually under pressure here, just for keeping what we do have open. 

Again, I'm pretty sure, that if e-mtb's start showing up o our local trails, that what the bike-haters will do is to utilize the 'trend' to attack access for ALL bicycles. 

I'm hoping that I just will never see one out there at all. That would be the best-case scenario, IMO. 

What I would do, if I was a bike-hater, is go to my local Seeairra club high council, and in a secret meeting, acquire funding to purchase one of those 4500 watt, 50 mph, 8" travel FS rigs, and put on a black full-face with reflective visor and engage in Sunday AM terrorist trail activities. 

Kinda like what the club did to sabotage the Barstow to 'Vegas off-road race.

Theyr'e certainly NOT too "ethical" to try something like that.

In fact, I'm a bit surprised they haven't tried it, already!


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## Lopaka (Sep 7, 2006)

Ebikes?....Meh 
Lazy fat people?......with out my mtb, there go I.
Let's save the hate for a more worthy target.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

So what is the difference between using a motor to get up the hill, and using a ski-lift? (I have no desire to do either).


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

andytiedye said:


> So what is the difference between using a motor to get up the hill, and using a ski-lift? (I have no desire to do either).


When you're on the ski lift you're not on the trail.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

andytiedye said:


> So what is the difference between using a motor to get up the hill, and using a ski-lift? (I have no desire to do either).


The difference would be, to migrate that metaphor over to our issue, that using the ski lift would deny you the right to ski on the mountain. 
That's exactly the issue here....not whether I care about fat people on e-bikes. 
I care about losing access to trails because of ANYBODY riding those trails on a motorized bike. Anti-bike groups like the Sierra Club would jump on this like a mountain lion on Bambi.
That's the reality with trail access, at least in San Diego California.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Roy Miller said:


> Jayem you are so right. I've been riding for 20 plus years and hope to get in another 20 or so. By that time I'll be in my 80s and will accept any assistance that is available. We're all pretty hard core now but there comes an inevitable decline as we age. We age at different rates and the more we exercise the more we delay it but it comes to get everyone. I for one have no qualms about any technological advantage I can add to my bike. I already have Disc brakes, TALAS (Travel adjustable) fork, Dropper Seat post, Sticky rubber tires just to name a few. You bet I'll be out there rippin it up


All those things you mention are part of a natural evolution of mountain biking. Motors are not. They are antithetical to the sport.


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## HPIguy (Sep 16, 2014)

There was another thread about this very recently, and my opinion hasn't changed. If it has a motor, whether it's electric, gasoline, or nuclear powered, then it's now a motorized vehicle and belongs on trails designated for such use. And there are plenty of those trails around already. Combining motorized and non motorized vehicles on trails is a recipe for disaster. If you don't think so, go search the news articles the past few months on how many road cyclists have been killed by cars. Now, I realize there's a big difference between the two as far as mass is concerned, but an e bike roosting along at 45mph while a pedaling rider is struggling to make 10mph is just not a good idea. Again, my opinion and nothing more.

As far as being disabled; I'm pretty sure this guy could have pulled that card had he wanted to. Instead, he rode a longer, much more grueling loop in this years Tour De' Franklin than I did. And I never once heard him say he needed some batteries to help him out.


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## XC Only (Jul 9, 2007)

I have not been riding on a regular basis since having children appear in my life three years ago, and it's been about that long since I posted here on MTBR.

I finally started checking out the local bike shops again, and one of them had the Haibike e-assist mtb available to ride.

My opinion on this topic is as follows: an irresponsible rider, is an irresponsible rider--regardless of what bike they ride.

I know that some of you guys make it a black and white issue, motor or no motor. Well, think about all the other innovations that have happened to mountain bikes: suspension, disc brakes, lighter/stronger materials, etc... They all allow you to ride with more comfort/control, which allows you to ride faster/farther. 

I'll leave it at that for the time being, and post a more thoughtful response when I'm not on a tablet.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^ Yes ,it is a black and white issue. All these other innovations do not involve a motor. You said it yourself, " allow you to ride" . Not activate a battery.


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## DannyvG (Apr 21, 2014)

Ebikes that require you to pedal and only amplify your torque are legally still bicycles in Europe and some us states. There is a big difference between the low power pedelecs and a higher power throttle operated "bike" which are legally mopeds or even motorcycles.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> ^^^ Yes ,it is a black and white issue. All these other innovations do not involve a motor. You said it yourself, " allow you to ride" . Not activate a battery.


Exactly. How is this even in question?

Has a motor - motorized.
Doesn't have a motor - non-motorized.

Not really all that complicated.


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## ou2mame (Apr 23, 2010)

It gets complicated when you look at it logically. We have programs that allow handicapped people to use motorized vehicles in some of our trails here. That means gas. I think with electric they would fit the environment better because they won't be making all the noise smoke and trail damage. Maybe I'm stupid but pedal assistance and not needing to pedal seem like completely different things.


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## Phinias (Aug 28, 2014)

ou2mame said:


> It gets complicated when you look at it logically. We have programs that allow handicapped people to use motorized vehicles in some of our trails here. That means gas. I think with electric they would fit the environment better because they won't be making all the noise smoke and trail damage. Maybe I'm stupid but pedal assistance and not needing to pedal seem like completely different things.


Sorry I fail to see why or how this is an issue of handicap or not. There is no "right" to being able to do what anyone else does. May I enter the Olympics and use an E-bike because I was not born as physically able as the other competitors? While quite frankly I could care less if someone uses one of these jokes on trails I use, if someone is so disabled they cant pedal themselves up a trail how the hell are they planning on pushing these tanks through the technical sections? This whole argument is disingenuous.... Most of us fit and able body people have an issue unclipping or getting our own feet down in time to stave off a fall or injury, elderly and disabled ... just strap them to trike and push them off a cliff for all the good a motor will do them.


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## BobbyWilliams (Aug 3, 2004)

Oh come on. What if I don't have a lot of time and can't hit the trail that often but want to go out with my fit friends that ride 3 to 5 days a week. I could never keep up on a regular bike, is it fair that I get left behind just because I don't have time to keep in shape? Shouldn't I be able to toss a couple hundred watts onto my pedal stroke so I can hang with the fast group? Seriously no one wants to get dropped or left to ride with the beginners just because they have gained a few pounds and lost their fitness.

Please note that I used the sarcasm font. But it is an argument that I could see selling some of these things.


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## Phinias (Aug 28, 2014)

BobbyWilliams said:


> ...Please note that I used the sarcasm font....


I have for years been trying to get a universal sarcasm font created.... by the way Comic Sans is the "hipster" font not sarcasm... but +1 for effort...


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## XC Only (Jul 9, 2007)

leeboh said:


> ^^^ Yes ,it is a black and white issue. All these other innovations do not involve a motor. You said it yourself, " allow you to ride" . Not activate a battery.


I think it is rather simplistic to think of this issue as "black or white."

I think you may have failed to understand my post. I was liking the non-throttle, pedal-assist models to the other big innovations in mountain biking.

My fully suspended 5" travel "trail" bike could easily "allow" me to exceed 30+ mph on more than a few downhills around my area. That same bike has nice, powerful, easily modulated hydraulic dis brakes that could easily "allow" me to bleed off all that speed and slow down to a pedestrian 5 mph in a couple of seconds.

Now if I was riding my fully rigid, circa 1993 chromoly steel mtb down that same trail, I'd have to really work, maybe even scare myself, to get past 20 mph on that same stretch.

Would you ban long travel suspension and disc brakes because they make it easier to potentially attain an "irresponsible" speed on the trail?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^^ You're in CA? Correct? The riders there have even more trail/land access issues have we have here in MA and New England. It is all about the motor. The areas we pedal clearly state no motor vehicles allowed. Period. They have already banned them in CA. What are you not getting? I ride rigid singlespeed, old school 26ers, fat bikes and my new enduro 29er. They all are pedal powered only, with no motor. How quickly will the no wheeled trail d bags lump us all together, mt bikes, ebikes, electric motorcycles and regular trail rippers with gas spewing 50 hp all together? There is a storm coming. Are you watching what's happening? My mt bike organization has been fighting for equal trail access for all users. That is hikers and mt bikers should have the same rights to use the same trails, not with motors. Out.


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## ernvil (Apr 8, 2011)

It'll become clearer and clearer who in the bike industry is simply interested in the bottom line and who genuinely cares about the integrity of the sport. As a consumer, I will show my support to those companies that care about mountain biking, and completely boycott those that start down the road of E-bike/motorcycles. Trek, Scott or whoever will not get another dime from me.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ou2mame said:


> It gets complicated when you look at it logically. We have programs that allow handicapped people to use motorized vehicles in some of our trails here. That means gas. I think with electric they would fit the environment better because they won't be making all the noise smoke and trail damage. Maybe I'm stupid but pedal assistance and not needing to pedal seem like completely different things.


If they were strictly used for handicapped access, I wouldn't have a problem with that. I'd consider people that use them without a need to be just like those that steal handicapped parking spaces though. D-bags.


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## Phinias (Aug 28, 2014)

Wait did I miss something, do these stand up by themselves too? Please describe (whomever is making an assumption that an e-bike can be used by a disabled person on a trail) the form s of disabilities that this would work with? Again, I will ask how will this help the disabled person get a foot down in time, navigate a technical rock garden etc.... Yes it will provide extra motivation which I am sure will come in handy while they are face down in a pile of roots and rocks....


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Phinias said:


> Wait did I miss something, do these stand up by themselves too? Please describe (whomever is making an assumption that an e-bike can be used by a disabled person on a trail) the form s of disabilities that this would work with? Again, I will ask how will this help the disabled person get a foot down in time, navigate a technical rock garden etc.... Yes it will provide extra motivation which I am sure will come in handy while they are face down in a pile of roots and rocks....


 Really?

Ever heard of things called 'lungs', or something referred to as 'the circulatory system'?


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## Phinias (Aug 28, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Really?
> 
> Ever heard of things called 'lungs', or something referred to as 'the circulatory system'?


Sure but the motor will not help them while pushing the bike through or around a rock garden or other obstacles, and will only "help" with motivation as they are still required to pedal. These are not off road wheel chairs....


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Phinias said:


> Sure but the motor will not help them while pushing the bike through or around a rock garden or other obstacles, and will only "help" with motivation as they are still required to pedal. These are not off road wheel chairs....


The motor assistance won't do everything, but it could well help enough to make mtbing 'accessible' for some.

I'm no expert on disabilities, by any means, but I did need to learn a bit about ADA guidelines for trail accessibility, etc during a trail building project a few years ago. Even now, depending on a given trail's designated use(s), it's very likely that there wouldn't be much anyone could do to keep someone with a disability from using one of these if they so desired, without going through a lot of trouble putting together a detailed trail inventory spelling out exactly why any particular trail should be deemed NOT accessible. Basically, it's 'open unless you've documented and proven why it shouldn't be' for many public trails when it comes to those w/ disabilities using motorized assistance to access them. This again depends on the trail's primary 'designated' use, which doesn't limit the trail's other 'managed' uses (ie - a 'designated' MTB trail can still allow hiking and XC skiing as 'managed' uses).

Etc...


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

ernvil said:


> It'll become clearer and clearer who in the bike industry is simply interested in the bottom line and who genuinely cares about the integrity of the sport. As a consumer, I will show my support to those companies that care about mountain biking, and completely boycott those that start down the road of E-bike/motorcycles. Trek, Scott or whoever will not get another dime from me.


Who owns Gary Fisher these days? Based upon his comments in Dirt Rag, the "leading edge" in mtb thinkers are always the first to embrace change.

Just like he was, with the 29" wheel. 
I think I can infer from this that Fisher will have an e-assist trail bike out in the near future.

Whether it is offered in 26, 27.5, or 29" wheels remains to be seen.


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## ernvil (Apr 8, 2011)

I had this exact conversation with a friend today about GF. It'll be interesting to see how he tows the line when it comes to E-"bikes" and his relationship with Trek.



Old Ray said:


> Who owns Gary Fisher these days? Based upon his comments in Dirt Rag, the "leading edge" in mtb thinkers are always the first to embrace change.
> 
> Just like he was, with the 29" wheel.
> I think I can infer from this that Fisher will have an e-assist trail bike out in the near future.
> ...


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## Phinias (Aug 28, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> The motor assistance won't do everything, but it could well help enough to make mtbing 'accessible' for some.
> 
> I'm no expert on disabilities, by any means, but I did need to learn a bit about ADA guidelines for trail accessibility, etc during a trail building project a few years ago. Even now, depending on a given trail's designated use(s), it's very likely that there wouldn't be much anyone could do to keep someone with a disability from using one of these if they so desired, without going through a lot of trouble putting together a detailed trail inventory spelling out exactly why any particular trail should be deemed NOT accessible. Basically, it's 'open unless you've documented and proven why it shouldn't be' for many public trails when it comes to those w/ disabilities using motorized assistance to access them. This again depends on the trail's primary 'designated' use, which doesn't limit the trail's other 'managed' uses (ie - a 'designated' MTB trail can still allow hiking and XC skiing as 'managed' uses).
> 
> Etc...


I am not advocating we keep anyone away from any trail, only that to say an e-bike will help make mountain biking accessable to the disabled would be like saying Siri would make driving accessible to the blind. Motivation or enhanced power added to pedaling will not do this, if it did then motor accessible trails would be full of disabled people riding around on dirtbikes and in my own experience that just was never the case. If they proposed a 4 wheel bike with a set up like this maybe but then we are no longer talking about a bike.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Phinias said:


> I am not advocating we keep anyone away from any trail, only that to say an e-bike will help make mountain biking accessable to the disabled would be like saying Siri would make driving accessible to the blind. Motivation or enhanced power added to pedaling will not do this, if it did then motor accessible trails would be full of disabled people riding around on dirtbikes and in my own experience that just was never the case. If they proposed a 4 wheel bike with a set up like this maybe but then we are no longer talking about a bike.


Never said a ton of people would do it. Just said that this would be the one exception to the ban of motorized vehicles on passive recreation trails that I think should be accommodated. Doesn't really matter to me if only 1 person on the planet takes advantage of it, or none. Hope that clears things up for you.

FWIW, I have a family member with very limited lung capacity due to cystic fibrosis. This does not in any way affect balance or coordination or strength. An e-bike would work perfectly for getting out on the trails in this case. You seem to have a very limited concept of what 'handicapped' can mean.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Phinias said:


> If they proposed a 4 wheel bike with a set up like this maybe but then we are no longer talking about a bike.


Take it you've never met or heard of a handcyclist before?


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm wondering how all of this will play out, too. 

To me, it's not biking at all. It's riding a scooter. 

Is there an E-bike forum yet?


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## Phinias (Aug 28, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Never said a ton of people would do it. Just said that this would be the one exception to the ban of motorized vehicles on passive recreation trails that I think should be accommodated. Doesn't really matter to me if only 1 person on the planet takes advantage of it, or none. Hope that clears things up for you.
> 
> FWIW, I have a family member with very limited lung capacity due to cystic fibrosis. This does not in any way affect balance or coordination or strength. An e-bike would work perfectly for getting out on the trails in this case. You seem to have a very limited concept of what 'handicapped' can mean.


I disagree rules should never be changed for just 1, or such a low set of examples. Quite frankly it is that kind of thing that buggered up our tax code and legal system. I was medically discharged from the military so I myself am defined as disabled, I can no longer do many things I used to do. I was airborne and loved to jump... can't do it anymore would destroy my back. I have no right to be able to jump like other people. Your family members with lung issues might be helped up the hill but not pushing the bike through a rock garden so your argument is once again ignoring that this still won't allow them to do this. Ride your bike with them on a motorized trail instead, there is nothing preventing that. This idea now adays that we have "rights" to stuff just because someone else has access to something is simply missplaced envy in the guise of fairness.



slapheadmofo said:


> Take it you've never met or heard of a handcyclist before?


All wheel drive.. nope never heard of that...


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Phinias said:


> I disagree rules should never be changed for just 1, or such a low set of examples. Quite frankly it is that kind of thing that buggered up our tax code and legal system. I was medically discharged from the military so I myself *am defined as disabled*, I can no longer do many things I used to do. I was airborne and loved to jump... can't do it anymore would destroy my back. I have no right to be able to jump like other people. Your family members with lung issues might be helped up the hill but not pushing the bike through a rock garden so your argument is once again ignoring that this still won't allow them to do this. Ride your bike with them on a motorized trail instead, there is nothing preventing that. This idea now adays that we have "rights" to stuff just because someone else has access to something is simply missplaced envy in the guise of fairness.
> 
> All wheel drive.. nope never heard of that...


Run with that designation! You can initiate all forms of litigation if you run around claiming that your rights were violated in some manner.


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## Phinias (Aug 28, 2014)

Meh... I actual donated the monthly stripend back to the VA until I secured full time employment. I self identify as a Veteran only... screw the disabled tag. Still i dont think I am somehow entitled to being able to do something I am physically not able to do. It is a matter of common sense not access. I have pushed my bike up quite a few hills before i got strong enough to stay in saddle and peddals. Either mountain bike or (sans engine) or drag your but on a mixed use motor vehicle trail and go that route.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Phinias said:


> I disagree rules should never be changed for just 1, or such a low set of examples. ....
> 
> All wheel drive.. nope never heard of that...


The rules already allow for exactly this type of thing in many cases. Not familiar with the ADA either I guess? Maybe you should lobby against it. Here's a good place to start collecting ammo for your campaign to change the rules and rid the trails of the scourge of the disabled:

American Trails - Accessible Trails and ADA

I get that your very new at the whole MTB thing and obviously have a lot of time on your hands, but you may want to stick to subjects that you know a little more about, whatever those may be. And just because someone informs you about things you know little about and the facts don't match your mistaken preconceptions, you don't need to take it as an argument (unless you're just a dick that's looking for one). Maybe you should try treating some of this stuff as educational.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Phinias said:


> .. nope never heard of that...


Well, now you have. See how much you're learning?


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## Phinias (Aug 28, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> The rules already allow for exactly this type of thing in many cases. Not familiar with the ADA either I guess? Maybe you should lobby against it. Here's a good place to start collecting ammo for your campaign to change the rules and rid the trails of the scourge of the disabled:
> 
> American Trails - Accessible Trails and ADA
> 
> I get that your very new at the whole MTB thing and obviously have a lot of time on your hands, but you may want to stick to subjects that you know a little more about, whatever those may be. And just because someone informs you about things you know little about and the facts don't match your mistaken preconceptions, you don't need to take it as an argument (unless you're just a dick that's looking for one). Maybe you should try treating some of this stuff as educational.


I guess you missed the part where this is my point of view, changing the rules to satisfy the suposed rights of others is always a bad idea unless your one of the few that benefits from it. All my opinion. Also e-bike usage as a tool of the handicap is a dishonest argument, as again it does not help in areas in which all riders end up hike a biking or pushing their ride through a technical section. It is just not an off road wheel chair, try and stay on topic.

As to your link, you realize those are guidlines right... its not the law as noone expects your local Dirt Jump's park to make all jumps wheel chair friendly, or ramps around every log. My newness to Mountain biking does not interfer with some critical thinking on your part. Re-read your "rules" they are guidlines even suggestions in some cases. I am sorry you have a few disabled people in your family, most of us do, but the world does not and should not revolve around their access too or lack of access too stuff.

If you read even further back you would also note I could not care less if I run into these on the trail, I just do not care. I just take issue with the dishonest claim that this should be debated for the use of the disabled.


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## Phinias (Aug 28, 2014)

Now that looks like fun, would not fit on any single tracks around my location... should we rebuild all our trails to accomodate the use of them?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Phinias said:


> I guess you missed the part where this is my point of view, changing the rules to satisfy the suposed rights of others is always a bad idea unless your one of the few that benefits from it. All my opinion. Also e-bike usage as a tool of the handicap is a dishonest argument, as again it does not help in areas in which all riders end up hike a biking or pushing their ride through a technical section. It is just not an off road wheel chair, try and stay on topic.
> 
> As to your link, you realize those are guidlines right... its not the law as noone expects your local Dirt Jump's park to make all jumps wheel chair friendly, or ramps around every log. My newness to Mountain biking does not interfer with some critical thinking on your part. Re-read your "rules" they are guidlines even suggestions in some cases. I am sorry you have a few disabled people in your family, most of us do, but the world does not and should not revolve around their access too or lack of access too stuff.
> 
> If you read even further back you would also note I could not care less if I run into these on the trail, I just do not care. I just take issue with the dishonest claim that this should be debated for the use of the disabled.


It's not an argument. Jeezus - do you have some sort of a complex or something? Most of those 'guidelines' were signed into law back in 2011. And in case you don't realize it, the fact is that not every MTB trail is exactly like the one you have formulated in your imagination. I didn't bring up this subject as a fight to allow all e-bikes to go anywhere, or to say that every disabled person on the planet could ride them easily on every trail on the planet, regardless of what your f'ed up persecution issues leads you to believe. I simply said that in the narrow case of disabled access, I don't have a problem with them, and in many cases, this type of use is already legal

Here, distilled and repeated, so you can STFU about it and go back to arguing about marketing trends or some other stupid ****.

"in the narrow case of disabled access, I don't have a problem with them, and in many cases, this type of use is already legal."


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## Phinias (Aug 28, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> It's not an argument. Jeezus - do you have some sort of a complex or something? .......


In logic and philosophy, an argument is an attempt to persuade someone of something, by giving reasons for accepting a particular conclusion as evident. It is by definition an argument.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Phinias said:


> In logic and philosophy, an argument is an attempt to persuade someone of something, by giving reasons for accepting a particular conclusion as evident. It is by definition an argument.


I was trying to persuade no one of anything, simply stating my feeling about the subject. As far as the rest of the conversation, it's really just you presenting a litany of misconceptions and not being happy when the facts don't support them.

In real life, someone who turns every conversation into an argument is a dick by definition.

:thumbsup:


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## Phinias (Aug 28, 2014)

Generally it is the person who make assumptions about other people based on nothing, and those who resort to mud slinging who are dickish.

Added after some thought...

Not making anything personal bro, and definately won't take it personal. You must however realize that this thread was intended for the purpose of debate, correct? You must also realize that any discussion is in fact an argument in the classic sense argument and debate are interchangable in that sense.

My guess is despite not agreeing on some issues you would probably be a decent enough chap to have a beer with, or go for a ride with. 

Cheers, and sure we will end up on opposite sides on other issues, but keep the debate topical and not personal, and I will as well.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)




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