# Running = crappy biking legs, advice please



## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

Ok, so for some absurd reason I have agreed to do a marathon with a bunch of my girlfriends. Each time I have put alot of miles running into my legs, my biking really suffers. Even if my legs aren't sore I feel like I've got nuttin' on the bike. Best way I can describe it is I feel like I'm riding in molasses. No power, fatigued, etc. They just feel sapped. 

Any mtbr's out there that run and cycle on a regular basis have any good recovery tips? I am going to try to be better about stretching and getting regular massages. I will be doing some sort of training every day whether it is running or riding. I know my body can handle the load as I have for years trained on the bike every day for racing. I will rest when I feel fatigued, eat well, the whole deal. 

I guess what I am asking is any out of the norm tips. Antioxidants? Secret potions, yoga, new age energy treatments, anything! What have ya got?


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## flipnidaho (Aug 10, 2004)

Rocknrollbarbie and I do both on a regular basis. Frequently a run in the morning and a ride in the afternoon. I agree with you that running fatigues my leg out for biking but biking doesn't fatigue my legs out for running. Keep doing both but remember that you need recovery. If the legs feel "heavy", push easier gears or ride flatter terrain. Spinning easy is actually good active recovery for running...
Oh yeah, a bathtub full of ice water to soak sore legs does wonders for RRB (I've never tried it myself)...


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## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

flipnidaho said:


> Oh yeah, a bathtub full of ice water to soak sore legs does wonders for RRB (I've never tried it myself)...


Yikes! Now that is just crazy talk.... I am way too much of a wimp for that.

Found a few articles on antioxidants and recovery. This basic concept is that: 
"The function that antioxidants play in aiding your recovery from exercise is the inhibition of free radicals produced during exercise. Any time you workout, free radicals are produced in the body that damage muscle tissue. Having an adequate supply of antioxidants about an hour or so before your workout can greatly reduce the muscle damage caused by free radicals, hence, improving your muscular recovery from exercise". 
http://www.sportandme.com/docs/sports/nutrition/antioxidants-recovery.html

Several articles agreed with that but also said that results were inconclusive as to helpful antioxidants really are in recovery.

"Although it is well known that vitamin deficiencies can create difficulties in training and recovery, the role of antioxidant supplementation in a well nourished athlete is controversial. The experimental studies are often conflicting and conclusions are difficult to reach. Nevertheless, most of the data suggest that increased intake of vitamin E is protective against exercise induced oxidative damage. It is hypothesized that vitamin E is also involved in the recovery process following exercise. Currently, the amount of vitamin E needed to produce these effects is unknown. The diet may supply enough vitamin E in most athletes, but some may require supplementation. There is no firm data to support the use of increased amounts of the other antioxidants".
http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/antiox.html

I guess I'll just continue to eat my fruits and veggies, drink lots of water and throw in an antioxidant supplement for good measure.


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## cyberdivachick (Jan 30, 2007)

Have you tried Sport Legs?


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## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

cyberdivachick said:


> Have you tried Sport Legs?


Hmmm... forgot about Sport Legs. I have a giant bottle somewhere, think I'll give it a try. Good idea.


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## flipnidaho (Aug 10, 2004)

This is rocknrollbarbie posting as Flip. I do one long run a week, plus some shorter ones if I have time. I have found that if I do my long ride on say Friday or saturday, then do my long run the next day, that works best. Then use the day after that as active recovery. I really think that biking and running are really complimentary because they work different muscle groups, and running helps increase bone density. Biking is sort of a non-impact sport (other than when I am crashing) so it is great to do an easy ride for an active recovery day after a good run. Make sure you are getting enough protein. Adding running increases muscle strength in your back and hamstrings and, well lots of places. You should also be able to increase distance by making sure you refuel with electrolytes and carbs during activity. Think GU or Heed drink or whatever. This is especially true once you are doing longer and longer runs. You can really tear your body up if you don't do this (my opinion of course) because your body runs out of fuel on long runs and starts looking to the muscles themselves to breakdown for energy (thus the creation of free radicals). I was shocked to learn just how many calories I burn on a run. I have run and biked the same loop and checked my calories burned. I burned about 400 cals biking it and close to 2000 running it. Making sure you feed your cells before, during, and no more than 30 minutes post activity will really help.


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## zonevbkr (Jul 28, 2007)

You may want to check out some duathlon or triathlon sites - slowtwitch.com is probably the biggest one I can think of even if you aren't doing run / bike brick workouts. 

As a duathlete, I can say this is something that does take time and patience. 

I'd say that recovery time becomes even more important, maybe try some yoga and at least stretch your legs before and after both the run and bike legs. Be willing to go easy on the day after a difficult run workout and vice-versa. After a while, your body will better be able to handle the new additional load you're putting on it and down the road, your biking will improve. Can't recall who it was I was reading about, but they were even saying that their race results had improved after adding some running to their workout though at first, they did notice a bit of a decline. 

Good luck!

-Chris


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2007)

Do some stairs!! I work on the 11th floor at my office and every morning for the past month I come to work and walk 11 flights up. NOW I can climb hills that I could never do before and I am always ready for more. A month ago I would always stop halfway on a hill and walk up...


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## Dwight Moody (Jan 10, 2004)

Running is strictly for escaping from things when you don't have a bike handy.


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

Dwight Moody said:


> Running is strictly for escaping from things when you don't have a bike handy.


WERD (said as the 2yo is throwing a temper tantrum in her room after a night of very little sleep).


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## gatorchick (Nov 5, 2006)

Running definitely tires the legs out somethin' fierce! A few suggestions tho ...

If you are following a regular marathon training plan and MTBing alot, you might want to back off on the running. Most running plans are geared to people who are getting ALL of their exercise by running ... not running and MTBing 3-4 times a week. Be sure that you keep the long runs but you can replace some of the shorter ones with your rides.

Try a good recovery drink. They are pricey but WELL worth the money. If your stomach can handle Endurox R4, I would use that - it seems to work the best but my stomach HATES it. Another great product is Recoverite by Hammer (www.hammergel.com). Recovery drinks made a HUGE difference for me when I was training for Ironman!

Good luck!!!


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## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

Dwight Moody said:


> Running is strictly for escaping from things when you don't have a bike handy.


Agree! The running may come in handy though as I sometimes find myself detatched from my bike while riding. 

Some brought up a good point about hydration/nutrition while running. From biking I am so used to having water with me all the time. So running without water is hard on me. I stash bottles on my route sometimes but HATE running with a bottle in my hand. Anyone use a camelbak while trail running? The one I have for biking is too bulky and moves too much while running. What about the belts, do those work well?


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## zonevbkr (Jul 28, 2007)

I've used the same hydration belts that I use on the road and they work much better IMO than a Camelback. There's all sorts of styles and types to pick and choose from.

Another option, for shorter runs, is placing fuel belt bottles in your back jersey pockets - might want to try that as well. 

I agree, Camelbacks bounce too much and though I have one that doesn't as much, don't like the strap across my chest to keep it from bouncing when I run - biking not as bad.


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## gatorchick (Nov 5, 2006)

I have a Camelbak Flashflo that I use for longer runs. It is made for running and is a "fanny pack" style, instead of the traditional backpack style. It holds plenty of water for a long run and has a pouch big enough for anything you might want to take with you (I can easily fit a cell phone, credit cards, gel flask, salt tabs, and gloves in there). 

I tried a pack that held actual water bottles (I think it was made by GoLite) but I hated it. As the bottles emptied you could hear the water sloshing around in there and it drove me NUTS!!! After a while you don't even notice the Camelbak. 

I know some people who love the FuelBelts (the belts with several smaller bottles around them), but I have never used one.


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## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

badjenny said:


> Any mtbr's out there that run and cycle on a regular basis have any good recovery tips? I am going to try to be better about stretching and getting regular massages. I will be doing some sort of training every day whether it is running or riding. I know my body can handle the load as I have for years trained on the bike every day for racing. I will rest when I feel fatigued, eat well, the whole deal.


I've been a runner, xc-skier, and mtb-er for years now, and running is by far the hardest of the three on my body. When I did a marathon a couple of years back, I found that I needed at least one day of rest per week, even if it isn't necessary when I'm focusing on mtb-ing or skiing. In my experience, serious athletes are more likely to get not enough recovery than not enough training. Therefore, my vote is 1 day/week rest during your marathon training, at least until you're more used to running long miles.

Good luck!


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## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

alaskarider said:


> Therefore, my vote is 1 day/week rest during your marathon training, at least until you're more used to running long miles. Good luck!


My old coach was always on me to take it easy. He really got through to me that rest and recovery are as, if not more important, than the actual training. Sometimes I really have to remind myself though. I took Saturday off completely. Did an hour trail yesterday and am going on an easy mountain bike ride tonight to spin out my legs.

On another note, I added a fish oil supplement, Omega 3's for antioxidant power. Ugh! Fish oil burps are not good. :eekster:


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## jenzterama (Nov 29, 2006)

i used to have ice baths when i trained for a marathon 2 years ago. my husband had this huge trashcan-like container and he filled it up w/ cold water and put a step ladder and a table with FOOD  next to it. then i'd go in there and pour ice until the water is little below mid thigh high and i'd stand there for about 15-20mins while i chow down a huge meal LOL :lol:. when i get tired of standing then i lean on the step ladder or sit on the edge on the container. it was crazy COLD but this made the icebath experience less dreadful and most importantly, it helped my knees/legs recover better.

i use the Endurance 4-bottle belt by FuelBelt and it has been great. No bounce and it stays put. there were complaints about the way the bottles seal, but this year i heard the bottles are better. i used to have an Amphipod water belt and it sucked...way too bouncy, it kept sliding up to my chest and the bottles would slide unless you have them placed sideways. maybe they are better now but i will stick to my FuelBelt.


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## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

zonevbkr said:


> I've used the same hydration belts that I use on the road and they work much better IMO than a Camelback. There's all sorts of styles and types to pick and choose from.


I like the idea of a camelbak type product, the whole hands free idea. I also don't want to fuss with trying to get bottles back into a holster, I am way too uncoordinated to do that and run at the same time.  Did the Flashflo stay in place? It looks like it might spend an entire run slappin' me in the arse and bouncing around.

Thanks to all for the input. 
Does beer count as a recovery drink? It has carbs right? :lol:


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## emilyjaydawg (Apr 27, 2007)

As a triathlete whose boyfriend is a running coach I'll throw in my $.03 worth. I've never marathon trained, but since most fall marathons end after bike racing season (at least in my neck of the woods) you might want to assess how much riding you need to do while you're marathon training. MTBing can be hard on your body, so I'd go easy on the mountain bike and stick to at least one road ride a week for recovery (you can substitute this for your easy recovery run, basically doubling the time you are supposed to run that day (1/2 hour run = 1 hour bike is my unscientific theory)). If you can't give up the mtb for a few months, cut back your riding to 3 times a week. 

The big key for me to staying injury free while (over)training is massage. I get weekly massages plus biweekly visits to an ART practitioner. If this seems pricey, do what my fast runner gf taught me - go to a nail salon and get a leg massage for a buck a minute, spending at least 5 minutes on each leg. Also, roll out your ITBs (which are probably already tight from riding) on a foam roller twice a week. 

As far as recovery, wear a sweaatshirt if you're going to do the ice bath. Epsom salt baths (stay in for 20 minutes) work wonders and are more pleasant than ice baths. I drink chocolate milk after hard workouts, it's been found to be just as good (and cheaper) as Endurox etc. 

Good luck! Now we just have to get you swimming


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## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

badjenny said:


> My old coach was always on me to take it easy. He really got through to me that rest and recovery are as, if not more important, than the actual training. Sometimes I really have to remind myself though. I took Saturday off completely. Did an hour trail yesterday and am going on an easy mountain bike ride tonight to spin out my legs.


Great! I hope that the recovery days help.

I agree that it is very difficult to feel like taking a day off is part of the training process, but I'm glad your coach emphasized it.


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## IttyBittyBetty (Aug 11, 2005)

*Yoga*

I both run and ride a lot, adding paddling in when I'm training for adventure races. I agree that running feels harder on your body than riding does. I try to address that by mostly trail running. The softer surface seems to help prevent some of the soreness I was getting from pounding on the pavement. Even though you are training for a marathon, you might try 1 or 2 days of running each week on trails instead of asphalt or cement.

The other big thing I can recommend is yoga. To counteract the strains running places on the body, I have added yoga to maintain flexibility and improve circulation, both of which reduce soreness and that heavy-legged feeling. If you're running and riding a lot, you should be careful not to do too much "power yoga", instead focusing on flexibility yoga. When I'm training with a lot of running and riding, I try to do 3 or 4 yoga sessions each week of 20 to 30 minutes per sesions, one of which might be on a rest day. I especially target the hamstrings, hip flexors and lower back (lots of sun salutations, pigeon pose, etc.).


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## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

Gatorchick: Just picked up a Camelbak, I got the Acclypso. It is just like the FlashFlo only a little smaller. Thanks for the advice, it felt fine when I did hot laps around the store.  I am going to try it out on the trails tomorrow night. 

IttyBittyBetty: I really like trail running. In your experience, does that translate well to the road? I feel like I want to do the majority of my training on trails… I find it much more fun than running on the roads and I only have to dodge other trial users and they are lot smaller and less scary then cars. 

Ice bath devotees: Were you only doing ice baths after the long runs? Is there any advantage to sitting down while in the ice bath? I like Jenzterama’s suggestion about standing up in a trash can type set up over talking myself into lowering myself, buns and all, into a bath tub.


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## rockierdr (Apr 24, 2007)

I'm so glad I found this thread- I've been training for a marathon (coming up at the end of September) and have been struggling through all of my long runs and feeling like I can't maintain good "running condition" and "biking condition" simultaniously. Frustrating as the last marathon I ran, the training was much easier (I wasn't mtb at the time). I just made the decision to cut back to the 1/2 marathon since I didn't want to cut back so much on the biking. I'm going to take this advice to heart though, and give my scheduled long run- 18 miles, ugh- another shot this weekend. 

For what it's worth, I also run with the FuelBelt, and it doesn't bounce, but I do struggle with getting the bottles in and out. I'm not a fan of gus when running, so I bring fun size snickers and break them in half pre-run and munch on those every 5 miles or so.

Thanks everyone for the advice! Funny how I always find a thread on just what I was thinking about


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## beeks (Jun 28, 2007)

I"ve done both running and biking, and have run marathons. I think while you focus on doing the marathon, you can still maintain your biking fitness. But my advice, from experience, is don't cut back on your marathon training just to keep up on your biking fitness. You will regret it come marathon time.

I'd suggest this. Run two times a week a day apart, and bike the day in between (for example, run Tuesday, Thursday, bike Wednesday). Then take a day off or a very easy day running or bikign. Very easy. Then instead of doing both on the weekend, pick one weekend for a long run, and the next weekend for long ride. The 2nd weekend day could be a shortish run/ride. You could also bike commute on your run days. You won't be in killer bike shape but you won't struggle through your marathon. If your legs are hurting, then you probably need to back off a little or be sure to take rest days. I've done marathons where I really only ran 3-4 x's a week. Just make sure you get that long run in on the weekend andyou'll be fine. Have fun!


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## Bluebug32 (Jan 13, 2006)

Not to derail the thread, but any suggestions for how I could get started running? I've never really done it much (that I haven't hated it at least!). I've had some foot trouble (mainly from too much biking and not enough stretching...plantar fascitiis) and always hated to run because of that. My feet have been getting a lot better.

Any tips on how to get started? I don't want to overdo it or sustain an injury from doing it too much too soon. I know it's good to cross train and I'm looking for something to complement the trainer (ugh) in the winter.


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## Sadlebred (Jan 12, 2004)

Google Couch to 5K. There are a few programs out there like this one:
http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_3/181.shtml


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## Bluebug32 (Jan 13, 2006)

Thanks!


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## badjenny (Mar 13, 2006)

Bluebug, in my opinion.... trail running is way more fun than road running. At least it has managed to keep my interest. I run alot of the same trails that I ride, kinda neat to see them at a slower pace. I am amazed at some of the neat things to look at that I missed while whizzin past on my mountain bike. I also like the terrain change, makes the time go by faster.


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## Bluebug32 (Jan 13, 2006)

I tried a little bit of running one day this week (long warmup and then one minute of jogging, 3 of walking fast). The place between my foot and leg (the 90degree angle where they meet), really hurt! What's up with this? Everything else felt okay.


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## Mtnz2Sea (Dec 13, 2004)

*Epson salt*

The big key for me to staying injury free while (over)training is massage. I get weekly massages plus biweekly visits to an ART practitioner. If this seems pricey, do what my fast runner gf taught me - go to a nail salon and get a leg massage for a buck a minute, spending at least 5 minutes on each leg. Also, roll out your ITBs (which are probably already tight from riding) on a foam roller twice a week.

As far as recovery, wear a sweaatshirt if you're going to do the ice bath. Epsom salt baths (stay in for 20 minutes) work wonders and are more pleasant than ice baths. I drink chocolate milk after hard workouts, it's been found to be just as good (and cheaper) as Endurox etc.

Great stuff Emily,..epsom salts are still widily used in europe in exercise recovery. Love the idea of getting my nails done and getting the massage too!


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