# Internal Cable Routing - Yeah or Nay?



## dipan (Feb 21, 2004)

Thought this would be an interesting poll, and would like to get framebuilders opinions on this for a new bike I'm having built soon. Hopefully the Frame Building forum is a good place for this, but if it should be in the Bike and Frame Discussion forum, then I wouldn't mind it being moved. 

It seems this is much more common for road bikes than MTB, so roadies may have stronger opinions.

Advantages seem to be a cleaner look, which may have an aero advantage in time trials and such, but probably not with mountain bikes. There is the concept of "craftmanship" where significant quality effort has to be put in to accomplish this also. For MTB, it would seem that cables would be less likely to get snagged on branches and stuff in hairy singletrack lined with tree branches, etc. I carry my bike over unfjordable creek or rocks, so not having to deal with the cables and their mounting posts would be nice. Probably less cable rub, but I have never really cared much about cable rub.

Disadvantages seem to be mainly due to the added complexity. Cables would be more difficult to service/replace. There would probably be more friction because more jacket material would be used to traverse the full length of the internal routing. This would not be a disadvantage for the rear hydraulic brake line, however, as the housing has to be full length anyway.

Feel free to offer up any pics you guys may have of well done (or not) internal cable routing ...


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I voted for brake hose, but I really don't belive that. It's a tricky thing. It can be cool or it sucks depending on the bike. Certianly it's stupid for a performance bike. It's kinda nice on some clean customs, but is often so poorly executed that it would have been better without. Done well and it's nice.


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## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

It is good for those of us who have our brake levers set up motorcycle style (F on the R), because you can run a nice loop of hose from the left brake lever into the right side of the TT, but then have the cable exit on the L of TT and run to the brake. (This is also why I think having cable guides at 6 o'clock makes sense, at least for a roadie)


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Nay.

-Schmitty-


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## dipan (Feb 21, 2004)

From ikswonalon's bike build:


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

I guess it's all depend on how many times you want to swap your parts around. Internal hydraulic line is sweet and clean looking but if you have to swap out the brake, it's just not fun.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Everytime I think about doing it, it strikes me as something completely pointless and frivolous. If you think about it, there's absolutely no performance vehicle that routes its cabling and wiring into the superstructure. In fact, I can't think of one that uses brazed on guides and stops.

So I guess at this stage, I'm leaning towards i) Go crazy and revel in the fact that it's stupid but looks super cool, or ii) Dismiss it completely as a bike industry anomaly.


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## marks_bike (Aug 22, 2006)

I voted yes. I just think it looks super cool, but I agree, it is a bit useless.


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## Linnaeus (May 17, 2009)

Thylacine said:


> If you think about it, there's absolutely no performance vehicle that routes its cabling and wiring into the superstructure.


Early Porsche 911 had oil lines through the rockers. I agree though -- there's no performance gain. But I could say the same thing about a load of other bike stuff.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I'm almost at the point where I'd like to make a stick-on set of ABS guides for full cable housing, and leave the internal stuff for the fluff bikes and charge accordingly.

Then again, I am going through a 'functionality' phase. I'll probably change my mind next week.


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## dipan (Feb 21, 2004)

Current Lotus Elise's use their superstructure as conduit for LOTS of stuff ...


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## dipan (Feb 21, 2004)

Built by Groovy Cycleworks in Wooster, OH:


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## dipan (Feb 21, 2004)

Winter Bicycles Home Page


From Winter Bicycles Flickr account:


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*You need another option...*

That would be "completely indifferent". The bike will work fine either way, and how much time do you spend looking at it while you ride? IMO it's just a doodad like a bottle opener or a fancy head badge. Some people love 'em (and I'm happy to do them), some people don't see the point.

I guess as a builder, I just don't care. As a rider, again, I don't care (though none of my personal bikes have internal routing, simply because I'm not interested in doing the extra work for no particular performance benefit).

-Walt


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## Winter Bicycles (Jun 8, 2008)

dipan said:


> Winter Bicycles Home Page
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting that!
> ...


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Dunno Walt, I 've seen plenty of internal stuff that totally compromised the function of whatever the cable/housing was going to.

Strikes me as a framebuilding party trick.

It's lame. Take a nice thin butted tube and drill two wanky holes in it? WTF. Then thread in a long ass tube? Then braze it all? For inferior/heavier routing? WTF. AND it costs more. Genius.

-Schmitty-


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## Yogii (Jun 5, 2008)

Internal Cable Routing looks very cool. Unless you run *all* your cables internally, it looks kind of stupid. For SS rear brake, great. If you run F and R derailleur cables, plus R brake cable, how do the derailleurs shift? Do you weaken the tube with 3 cables inside? Do you have to beef up the tube diameter/wall thickness? Do the same things that apply to steel also apply to ti?


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

It is a coin flip either way. They look cool, but needing to change out a hydro line would be a PITA. Now if the line were to rattle or make noise inside the frame then it is not worth it at all.


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## dipan (Feb 21, 2004)

Winter Bicycles said:


> dipan said:
> 
> 
> > Winter Bicycles Home Page
> ...


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

I certainly like it for the rear hydro because it cleans up the look of the bike but more importantly, it is silent and reliable. Saddles look fine too, but with zip ties, you risk breaking one and then hose rattles around--no biggie if it does fail really, but no matter what, the occasional hit will "ting" the hose on the top tube and it never happens with internal. Also, I'm not a fan of zip ties on a custom frame.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Good points*

The ones I've done have always have had WAY beefy toptubes to compensate for drilling the darn holes, so yeah, way heavier, arguably weaker, etc.

I make these points when people ask about it, and it generally means they decide against it. Some people are obsessed with the look for one reason or another, and I'm not going to argue aesthetics with anybody, so I go ahead and do it, but I make sure it's way beefy.

I'd guess I've only done 3 or 4 bikes with internal routing ever, though, so it's not as if it's a common thing for me.

-Walt



Schmitty said:


> Dunno Walt, I 've seen plenty of internal stuff that totally compromised the function of whatever the cable/housing was going to.
> 
> Strikes me as a framebuilding party trick.
> 
> ...


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

I've nothing to add, except that bottle openers on bike frames are really stupid. And I drink a lot of beer and ride plenty.


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## dipan (Feb 21, 2004)

Wolfhound Cycles:











(Pic is from Bike198)


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## dipan (Feb 21, 2004)

Another pic of a Groovy from this forum:


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

As a mechanic, I hate it, because it's a hassle to work on. Some modern TT bikes are the worst. We're a Fuji dealer, and building their flagship TT bike, the D6, is nightmarish, because routing the cables takes FOREVER.


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## malski (Aug 28, 2008)

ha didn't realize my bike was posted. 
I like the look of internals a lot. It's definitely heavier but it really cleans up the tubes and looks better than most braze ons. Internal hydraulic could be a pain having to rebleed every time though


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## Wolfhound Cycles (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh hell yeah, you even posted one for me!
I suppose it's plain to see that I love internal cable routing. The strange thing is that I had no intention of trying it until some customers showed interest. I basically agreed with all the reasons not to do it mentioned here. Then I tried it on my personal bike (shown above), I've been riding that bike about 5years now, and am fully sold on it, and nearly all my frames have at least one internal line.
As mentioned above, if it's not done properly things can go south pretty fast. I've found that once someone has a bad experience with it, they are never interested again, no matter who's building the bike.
For the sake of the drill, let's assume the internal conduit is built into the frame properly, no kinks and it doesn't rattle. Here's a few things I like about it:

Quieter - It can be virtually impossible to eliminate ALL housing slap w/braze-ons, with internal conduit, it's COMPLETELY silent. If you notice, the cables coming out of my frame above never even touch the paint, pretty nice bonus.

Longer cable life - it's a misconception that internal routing adds friction, it's actually smoother, and lasts longer, here's why: With braze-ons the housing is held tightly in 4-6 places between the handlebar and drop-out. Each one of those is a chance to put a small kink in the housing (assuming we're comparing full housing in both cases), all it takes is snagging it on something once, or someone picking up the bike carelessly. If you use zip-ties you're going to be pinching the housing in 4-6 places, internal routing pinches it nowhere.

I use 1/4" X .016 stainless tubing. In order for the procedure to work, the tubing must be bent in the most gentle of curves, far more gentle than what the cable housing will do. This pretty much forces a low friction system or it flat out won't feed through, no kinks, no pinches, the curves HAVE to be more graceful.

If you spend much time shouldering the bike, I think you'll notice a worthy advantage over having the cable stuck to the outside of the tube. Every time you pick up the bike, unless you never ever touch the cables, you're putting some amount of pressure on the housings and moving them a little here or there, with internal routing the housing is protected from this kind of thing. Running a full housing makes a closed system and keeps the cable clean for a long long time.

There is certainly a small weight penalty, no denyin that one. The closest I can figure is about 100grams per line.

I made this frame w/all internal cables, and it shifts like buttered silk.









From the builders end, I like the fact that it discourages swapping brakes/components around. Part of the allure of a custom bike is integration and streamlining, the frame should be designed around specific components, for a specific person. There should be little need for taking your bike apart and redesigning the package.

Thanks for starting this thread, I often wonder how others (builders and consumers) feel about the topic.

Fred


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