# Difference between All Mountain, XC, and Trail bikes?



## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

What's the difference between All Mountain, XC, and Trail bike designation? I'm looking for a new "mountain bike" to replace my no suspension bike that I've ridden for years on street, paved trail and dirt trail. I want something that is durable, relatively lightweight, front suspension, not sure about brake type, and won't break the bank.


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## tomsmoto (Oct 6, 2007)

man this does get asked a lot :lol:

ill give you a quick cliffnote, you can search for more detail.

xc = short travel, ~71 degree head tube angle, focus on lightweight and climbing.

all mountain. made to ride all over a mountain. longer travel, usually has a head tube angle under 70 degrees. usually stronger and beefier. 

most people say a trail bike is an all mountain bike. just means a bike to jump on and ride, not for racing or anything.. all purpose bike.


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## Trimen1000 (Mar 28, 2008)

Maybe we should create a wikipedia page with this info. We can start off with identifying the kinds of riding, like this post:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=4285974&postcount=13

Then spend some time describing the bike itself.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Maybe a better definition of a trail bike is a 4 inch travel bike that's heavier than an xc bike, but not as heavy as an all mountain bike and it doesn't have as much travel


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Cool, thanks for all the replies! 

So what should I be looking at considering my intended use? I'm about 6'2" 180lbs experienced rider who needs a good replacement bike for my non-suspension ten year old bike? 

Not planning on extreme riding just around town, and light to medium paved and un-paved (dirt) trails. Way back when I did all the bmx jumping and got many bloody hands, arms, knees, head, you name it....but I'm not into the big air jumps anymore. I love to get outdoors, see the mountain scenery, and get some exercise....not planning on jumps. 

BTW, are disc brakes really worth it? A freind has a bike with them and they dont' seem to stop as well as cantilever rim brakes with good pads...


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

Natedogz said:


> Cool, thanks for all the replies!
> 
> So what should I be looking at considering my intended use? I'm about 6'2" 180lbs experienced rider who needs a good replacement bike for my non-suspension ten year old bike?
> 
> ...


A good pair of v-brake will outbrake a crappy disc, but a high quality hydraulic disc will blow a v-brake out of the water.

So it is possible your friend has low-quality disc brakes, which are nothing more than bling factor added to a bike.


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)

Natedogz said:


> Cool, thanks for all the replies!
> 
> So what should I be looking at considering my intended use? I'm about 6'2" 180lbs experienced rider who needs a good replacement bike for my non-suspension ten year old bike?
> 
> ...


Keep it simple and just get a decent hardtail. It will do all that and more. It all comes down to your budget in the end, but you'll get the most bang for your buck with a hardtail.

Not all discs are created equal - there are good cable powered discs like the Avid BB7 and Hayes, and there are average ones often found on budget bikes and more for looks than anything.

Most hydraulic discs are pretty good, with the ones from Avid, Hayes and Shimano all being excellent.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Sideknob said:


> Keep it simple and just get a decent hardtail. It will do all that and more. It all comes down to your budget in the end, but you'll get the most bang for your buck with a hardtail.
> 
> Not all discs are created equal - there are good cable powered discs like the Avid BB7 and Hayes, and there are average ones often found on budget bikes and more for looks than anything.
> 
> Most hydraulic discs are pretty good, with the ones from Avid, Hayes and Shimano all being excellent.


I also suggest getting a hardtail. Not only do you get more bang for your money, but in your case you don't even need the rear suspension. Like snakey and sideknob said it really depends on what disc brakes are on the bike. I have avid bb7 and I can't adjust them very tight because they grab so fast and hard I lose control. I had always ridden lower end discs before these and I never experienced anything similar to what I described above. I have had my discs overheat and lose braking power and my friend's V brakes were still going strong.


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## comptiger5000 (Jun 11, 2007)

Sounds like a hardtail would be good for you. If you can get decent disc brakes, they're worth it. I love my Avid BB7s, great power and modulation. And, as an added bonus, they look cool.


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## havnmonkey (Apr 22, 2007)

Decent hardtail... $600-1000 for new (you can find cheaper used, or build your own if you are so inclined). Avid BB7's are great all around brakes... and they can be had for cheap too!!!

Specialized, Trek, Cannondale, and Gary Fisher are all readily available at most local shops... Just remember low price means low end components, but they can always be upgraded as they break... so concentrate on frame fit!!!


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## o'~o martin (Apr 4, 2008)

I agree, go with a hardtail. I recently upgraded my disc brakes to the Avid BB7s and they are awesome. They provide good stopping power and are very easy to dial in. Based on your riding style I'd look at a XC style setup, lightweight, and since you're riding road keep the tire width low, under 2".


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Been at several lbs all afternoon...just got back from lots of test rides and questions.

Made the mistake??? LOL, of riding some higher level bikes than what I had been looking to spend. I could tell the difference in the front suspension and how they shifted. Here's what I road....

Giant Yukon (large) 20" frame felt really good and comfortable...rode great all-around with the . 
LBS price 2007 model (SR XCR Magnesium) : $469.99
LBS price 2008 model (Rock Shox Dart1 forks): $500.00

Giant Rincon (large) 20" frame, felt good and comfortable too, but cheaper feeling with the fork feeling kinda wimpy.
LBS price: don't recall cause it wasn't that impressive a ride...but obviously somewhere between the Boulder and the Yukon.

Giant Boulder SE (large) 20" frame, felt good and comfortable too....was a week ago so I don't remember how the forks felt.
LBS price: $330.00

Gary Fisher 21.5" and 19.5" Tarpon....21.5" is too big, 19.5" felt pretty good fit, but not as comfortable as the Giant Yukon, and the forks were definitely sub-par feeling. Both seemed alot lighter in the front end than any of the Giants...is this good? Is it fit or frame design related?
LBS price: $369.00

After riding these two Fishers and talking with the guy at the lbs about how they felt and intended use he recommended something better. He suggested the Wahoo $439.98, Wahoo Disc $509.98, Marlin $539.98, or the Marlin Disc $629.98. He's out of stock on all these in my size....19.5"....but will order in for me whichever one I want without a commitment to buy.

He also recommended Specialized RockHopper $529.98, RockHopper Disc $ 629.98 again due to my more aggressive riding style and terrain....but again didn't have in stock in my size to test ride....but will order in for me whichever one I want without a commitment to buy.

I asked about the Forge bikes and he said they are junk don't waste my time. Also said avoid Cannondales due to the frames cracking. 

Only really wanted to spend $500 or less....but I can really tell the differences. So what should I buy?


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## o'~o martin (Apr 4, 2008)

Definitely avoid Cannondales. 
My brother owns a Specialized and its solid. The RockHopper has a good fork with the lockout feature for road riding and the disc brakes are good. The Marin's are running a lower end fork but the disc brakes are equivalent. 
I personally have a more aggresive riding style and find the Giants are a little too XC for me.
Out of all the bikes you listed I would take the RockHopper especially at that price. It's worth the extra money.


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## comptiger5000 (Jun 11, 2007)

I ride an 06 Yukon (all stock except for Avid BB7 brakes) and I love it. It's very comfortable, both on road and trail. Mine has the Suntour XCR fork, which isn't bad, but it does rebound fast. Also, based on your weight, it may be a little soft, but probably not bad. I weigh 120, and it seems stiff to me, I can only use up 40mm of travel (approx). If you felt the Yukon was comfortable, I would say go for it.


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## CougarTrek (Jan 27, 2007)

Natedogz said:


> Been at several lbs all afternoon...
> 
> I asked about the Forge bikes and he said they are junk don't waste my time. Also said avoid Cannondales due to the frames cracking.
> 
> Only really wanted to spend $500 or less....but I can really tell the differences. So what should I buy?


He doesn't sell Cannondales  . Yes, I have seen Cannondales with cracked frames, I have also seen Giants, Gary Fishers, Treks, Specialized, $5000 Turners, etc, etc, etc. All detailed in grim pictures on this forum.

Point being, bikes break. Abused bikes break faster. Bikes used for purposes other than what they were built for break even faster. But they ALL break sometimes.

Cannondale (like a lot of the big manufacturers) has a lifetime guarantee on their frames against manufacturers defects. They stand behind it like any other large manufacturer and in the event that your bike frame cracks and you didn't huck it off a ten foot cliff and crash you'll get a brand new frame.

Go ride one, if you like it better than the others, buy it, ride it, and don't worry about it.

The Fishers might not fit/feel as good because of the genesis geometry Fisher uses. That makes for a longer top tube and longer reach than average. Great if it fits you, horrible if it doesn't. Treks are like the Fishers (same company) but with a more average length top tube, so you should try those and see if they feel better fit wise to you. And dare I say it; if there is a Cannondale dealer near you you should go ride one. There's nothing wrong with their bikes!


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Today I test rode a couple more bikes. 

The Iron Horse Warrior 3.0 in 19.5" and 21.5" Wasn't sure but finally decided that the 21.5" fit me better, lots of good parts and nice frame for the money but even the 21.5" didn't feel just right. The WTB Werewolf tires seemed really sketchy on the pavement, anybody else had this or is it just because they are new and haven't gotten all the rubber protectant coating off of them? Even after riding it for awhile, the tires (especially the front) seemed to lack traction on the pavement parking lot. Never had MTB tire that felt so loose and unpredicatble. Once I got used to the bike, it rides and handles really well. Love the matte black finish almost everywhere on it....nice stealth look!  This bike is/was a strong contender in my search and is $499.99 at LBS. Today was supposedly last day of their no tax sale, but the guys there were mostly a bunch of fawkin tools with slow and rude customer service....so don't really want to buy there, but glad to test thier bikes. I will not buy anything there unless I need it right now and they are the only ones who have it in stock!

At the same LBS with all the tools for employees, I rode the GT Avalanche 3.0 DIsc, another very nice looking bike in almost all matte black color scheme. Suntour forks felt like cheap junk! Wimpy spring even on max setting and not very smooth, didn't feel like they'd last more than a couple months if that....and if they did I'd regret them everytime I rode the bike...LOL!!! It was pretty comfortable ergonomics wise, but didn't really jump out as a great fit for me....even if it was the forks were too crappy for my use and therefore the bike is pretty much out of the question. Nice otherwise, too bad the forks weren't better. They don't stock a similar GT bike with nicer forks....bummer.

Next LBS to ride the Specialized RockHopper Disc, they sized me on a 21" which I was skeptical that it would be too big, but it fits great!!! The only bike so far that I've test ridden and as soon as I hop on and start pedaling I fell like one with the bike!!!! Aaack it's $699.99 at this LBS, but my other LBS who is also friendly nice guys has it for $629...just have to order my size. Rode the 19" just to be sure and it was too small. Love this bikes fit, performance and looks!!! All it needs at the moment for me is some toe clips and I'll be set.

Rode the Specialized Hard Rock Disc in silver which is a nice color too....it was pretty good but kinda like the Iron Horse Warrior 3.0, in that I just didn't feel quite right as the fit goes. And again the Suntour forks felt very cheap....the bike was noticeably heavier too. This bike is out as a choice for me due to these reasons.

Intended to ride a Trek 4300 Disc but didn't. I had been shopping and test riding for half a day and wanted/needed to get a ride in on my current non-suspension backup bike (1990 Bridgestone MT-4) which is not comfortable at all too me. Also wanted to ride a Trek 6000 but didn't since I was burnt on shopping and it is even more $$$ than the Specialized Rockhopper Disc that fits perfectly!

After riding these bikes today I decided that the Gary Fisher doesn't feel right to me in the 19.5" or 21.5"....so those bikes are off my list.

Now I have to figure out where to come with the extra $$$ for the Specialized Rockhopper Disc that fits perfectly!


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## spazzy (Aug 15, 2004)

i have a gary fisher tarpon as my 1st bike it did quite well but any of those choices would be an awesome so you go with whatever fits right and for what you are doing i would stick with v brakes, like other people have said a good pair of v brakes will out perform a mid to bottom line of mechanical disks


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)

If you can afford a bike with 27 speeds so much the better - if you want to upgrade at a later stage to high end gear it makes it cheaper and easier in the long run.


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## havnmonkey (Apr 22, 2007)

Go w/ the Rockhopper... Great platform to upgrade the components in the future...


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

havnmonkey said:


> Go w/ the Rockhopper... Great platform to upgrade the components in the future...


Thanks, that's what I decided tonight...lol! 21" black Rockhopper Disc for me! Can't wait to get it and ride a comfortable bike with great performance....I can still remember it over all the others from my week of test riding!!! I like it that much!  It truly felt like part of me where as all the others felt a little bit not quite right.....or just downright cheap.


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## havnmonkey (Apr 22, 2007)

looks like you made a great choice... i'm talking about getting out there and doing some hands on research:thumbsup: Enjoy your new ride and remember that w/ time you can do a ton of work on your bike yourself... It'll save you some money and get you more in tune with your ride


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Thanks, and ya can't be too sure because it has to fit the individual person and the more natural and a part of the bike you feel when you're riding it, the longer you can ride and the more gnarly terrain you can conquer.  Can't wait to get it and get out on the traila with it!


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## bikefun (Jun 15, 2006)

Does he carry Forge Bikes? He's probably being defensive because of the Forge offering or doesn't want to lose a sale. I agree with Cougar's assessment, Cannondale is no different in regards to any other brands regarding "crack" frames. Actually I've yet seen a Cannondale frame cracked. With such remarks I would question this shop, he doesn't seem very knowledgeable or professional, you may want buy from a different shop.

Cool you narrowed down and decided to dish out $630 on the Specialized. Send us pics when get the bike!


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## bikefun (Jun 15, 2006)

PS: Did you consider the Trek 6500?


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Thanks for the suggestions.

I asked some of the shops about bikes like the Forge and Iron Horse just to test thier reaction and evaluation...lol.  I'll post a pic when I get it....he suggested maybe another color, and I said, "uh...white??? I'll wait for the black thanks." The mostly black bike looks really good!

Yes, I considered the Trek 6500 as it looks very well equipped and in similiar price range, but they didn't feel as good a fit as the Specialized.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Finally picked up my black Rockhopper Disc today and W0W it's worth the wait!!! Got a Specialized Instinct helmet in matter black too. Tried the Giro Hex and didn't like the feel of the retention system up in the helmet, I could feel it pressing on my head no matter what size or how I adjusted it....good lookin helmet though.

In the end it was down to the Giro Mountain Havoc 
http://www.giro.com/site/#/product/cycling/mountain/havoc/

and the Specialized Instinct, 
http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=34850

both in matte black....the Specialized just fit better, was more comfortable and looks to have a little bit more protection.

Stayed late at the LBS and rode my new Rockhopper around the parking lot a bit....can't wait to hit the dirt with it!!!

BTW, what's the best way to remove all the little stickers on the bike? GooGone, WD-40, or?

ALso best wrap for the chain stay to keep the clinking noise away?


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## savagemann (Jan 14, 2008)

SWEET!!!!! Congrats on a decision well made. Let us know how she rides once you hit the dirt.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Savagemann, thanks and I really like it! Took it out today for some single track in the foothills and it is frickin awesome!!!! My friend rode it for a few minutes and now he wants one....lol. We rode for two hours and had a great time, lots of rocks, tree roots, poison oak and trees very close to the trail.  

I'm addicted to single track now! Can't wait til next weekend and may see if I can get in an evening after work ride or two this week! 

Thanks to the input from everybody here, I bought the perfect mountain bike! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: That's what two weeks of reading all over this site, mfrs sites, visiting LBS, and test riding does for you.  

Installed my water bottle cages last night and am going to install my toe clips tonight. Need to put my Mr Tuffy's in the tires too. 

Now I need a good odometer that doesn't cost too much but works well (accurate), is easy to use and can take a beating. What do you all suggest?

And need to buy a little tool bag (and tools) that can hold one spare tube, tools, pump/inflater to hang from under the rear of my seat. Suggestions on bags and tools?

Holding off on the Camelbak or whatever brand for the moment....kinda confused with Camelbak, DaKine, and the other expensive one that was recommended elsewhere on this site......:crazy:


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## savagemann (Jan 14, 2008)

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=17167&subcategory_ID=4110

Thats the computer I have. Works good and is wireless. On sale for $50 to $20, and I think they have free shipping thru tomorrow on orders over $50. Sounds like you should look for a pack and some tools there too, if you have the $$ to spend by tomorrow.

Glad you like the bike, sounds sick!!!!!!!


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Thanks and great sale price. I have $$ for the pack, tools and computer....gonna buy another pair or two of bike shorts too.


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## emptybe_er (Jan 15, 2006)

N-dogz - 

. . .good to hear the excitement in your attitude! Welcome to the "tribe"!

Normally, I'd just read comments like yours and smile while reminded of my enthusiasm when I first got hooked on the sport. I had to chime in when I read you're postponing the Camelback. . . you really should consider buying a decent one soon. Bottles, even if your frame can fit two, limits you to 40 oz. max. (2X 20 oz bottles) vs. 100+ oz with a "Mule". You'll soon tire of dirty/dusty/muddy bottles. . . this doesn't include bending a deformed bottle-cage after you've crashed which, by the way, won't hold a bottle nearly as well once you've reshaped it. As for portaging tools in an under saddle-bag - do you really want all those tools jingling around while you're tackling that root-section? That type of bag doesn't hold all that much anyway. . . leading us to the mini-pump. Strap it on the frame? Go ahead, I've found some great pumps that fell off the bike in rocky-sections. Trust me, with a Camelback/Dakine/etc. you'll be able to carry everything you'd need for a typical ride and your water will stay cooler because it's insulated. On top of that, your bike won't have twenty things dangling off of it to throw the overall balance making you sound like one of Santa's reindeer while cruising your local singletrack. Oh, and get a bag with more capacity than you originally thought - you're riding for only two hours now but that'll change soon enough. I just wish someone told me all that before I wasted money on bottle-cages, tool-bags, too small H2O-packs, etc.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Emptybe_er, thanks for the tip and yeah I know about the muddy bottle tips....yuck. What size camelbak or whatever bag do you recommend? Is one brand really that much better in terms of comfort than the other?


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## emptybe_er (Jan 15, 2006)

Camelback Mule. . .

100oz bladder and enough room for all the necessary tools (hex-key set, chain-tool, tire-levers, pump, shock-pump, few extra links of chain, patch-kit, spare tube), cell-phone, snacks, etc. Basically, more than enough room for a 4 -5 hour ride.

. . .favorite tip: fill the bladder about 3/4 way with ice, top of with ice-water - drop an 8oz. can of Red Bull in the bottom part of the bladder compartment then the bladder. . . about half way through your ride, when you need a boost, the Red Bull will be ice cold.

. . .a drop of Clorox with about half capacity of water to rinse the bladder after each ride will keep the funk away - just be sure to rinse well.

. . .wash the bag after every ride so it doesn't smell like monkey-butt (not that I know what monkey-butt smells like...). I just throw the bag (sans bladder and other goods, of course) in the wash with all my other stuff (jersey, shorts, gloves, etc.) and hang-dry after the rinse-cycle. It's probably a good idea to tie the straps of the bag to one another to prevent it from tangling with other items. I've done this pretty religiously for three years (at least one ride a week, 52 weeks/year) and the bag, though faded, is still hanging tough. . . changed the bladder once, "bite-valve" twice.

. . .Camelback is probably the best. I had a Blackburn "Hydrapack" but the bag itself wasn't insulated enough, the bladder would condensate (sweat) and I'd have cold water drip down my crack. . . which isn't too comfortable when riding. I also received an Outdoor Products version but somehow the design just doesn't keep everything as organized. That said, the "Mule" is most likely the most versatile. If you're planning longer rides (6 - 8 hrs.) or planning to bring "the kitchen sink", a "Blowfish" may be a better purchase. Generally, you're looking for a 100oz bladder - if you're planning a quick ride, you can always just fill it half way.

. . .if you know someone with access to a military exchange, try to "piggyback" on that gig - the military-issue "Mule" is super-nice and probably about 15% less than what you'd pay at your LBS.

. . .gee, I wish somebody told me all that when I first started. . . Happy Trails, man, happy trails. . . .:thumbsup:


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## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

I have a Blowfish on order.

I started out with a Lobo, and it is a great summer pack. I can carry a pump, spare tube, mini-tool, some goo packs, a few other small items and 100 ounces of water.

Over the winter, I sometimes would start off my ride wearing a light windbreaker. When it became too warm, there was no easy way of stashing it in the Lobo. Not enough room. The Blowfish, with the expandable zip out section, I hope will solve this problem for me.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

I bought the Camelbak Mule and it is perfect! Got a spare tube, dry patch kit, Top-peak multi-tool, and Cat-Eye Enduro 8 cyclocomputer too.


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## oldskewl (Apr 18, 2008)

I was in the same situation about 4 weeks ago with a original budget of 550$ for a ht mtn bike. Once I read around on here I quickly got stuck on the rockhopper but wasn't sold till I rode it. Rattled my budget but I'm glad i got it. Good choice Im loving mine.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

UPdate, been on many great trail rides and have a little over 150 miles on it or so...didn't get the odometer right away so I'm not really sure. I bought this odometer:

http://www.cateye.com/en/product_detail/254

CC-ED300ENDURO 8
The new Enduro 8 has a new design with larger numbers. Heavy duty wire works well for off-road riding. Dual trip distance keep track of intermediate or multi-day distances. The new speed sensor mounting will work with almost any size or shape fork

Specifications:
* Handlebar mount size: 22-32mm
* Fork mount size: 11-55mm
* Battery: CR2032
* Front fork mount heavy duty wire sensor
* Wired sensor transmission distance up to 27 inches or 70cm

Loving my new Fox Digit full-fingered gloves:

Digit Glove #24074
Product Description:
* Direct inject TPR logos and graphics
* Neoprene flex panels for comfort and finger mobility
* Silicon gripper on the fingertips for brake lever control 
Price: $27.95

http://shop.foxracing.com/ecomm/Aut...=Gloves&proNumber=24074&imgName=24074001F.jpg

Stock pedals suck, they should just let you buy your own on any bike that costs $500 or over. I bought some Kona Wah Wah pedals last week and so far they seem great, but didn't have time for a real ride this week. Hopefully next weekend.

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/drivetrain/pedal/kona/wah-wah/PRD_417815_135crx.aspx

http://content.konaworld.com/webstore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=205

I've bent both wheels a couple times so I'm starting to question their long-term durability but we'll see. I had a 'Pro' wheel tune up and truing the other day, that includes tensioning all the spokes kinda high to pre-stretch them and then they are un-tensioned a bit until they are at the proper tension for that setup. If this doesn't do the trick I maybe looking at some Sun Rhyno Lites on Deore hubs. The stock rims are Specialized/Alex RHD 26, double wall, for disc brake. I haven't been jumping it, but some 1-2 foot drops with lots of rough dry hard-pack trail and pointy rocks and tree roots.

Sun Ringle Rhyno Lite XL (welded):
http://www.sun-ringle.com/contentpages/mtb/rims/allmountain.php5

The Avid BB5 cable actuated discs with the Clean Sweep rotors work great and stop on a dime and give you change, but I tried some Avid Juicy BB7s the other day and they are so much easier to modulate without over braking. Now I know why some people swear by hydraulics even though they are more hassle to bleed and adjust.

Overall the bike is really nice, but I rode a Gary Fisher 29er the other day and it was amazing....I'd prolly go with that or a Specialized Rock Hopper Disc 29 if I did it over:

http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=34097

EIther way my next bike is going to be a 29er. I'm keeping and riding the whee outta this bike for now!  Overall it's performance is really good and I'm happy with it.


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## sru (Sep 26, 2005)

You, my friend, are hooked.

Love the enthusiasm.

Post some ride pics.


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## djp2k8 (May 6, 2008)

Electrical tape works good on your chain stay. I noticed they have colored electrical tape now, including clear.


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## oregonrider (Apr 28, 2007)

I use a neoprene chainstay protector, Ive been thinking about using some black hockey tape (or another kind of cloth tape).


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

sru said:


> You, my friend, are hooked.
> 
> Love the enthusiasm.
> 
> Post some ride pics.


Yeah I think so lol... 

Gotta remember to take some pics....always head out to ride kinda forget.

Djp2k8,

Good idea for electrical tape on the chainstay. Just be sure you use the high quality 3M brand high temp stuff, it is the only electrical tape that I've found to last for a long time especially around high temps and/or oil.

Oregonrider,

I like the neoprene protectors but made mine out of an old innertube wrapped around the chainstay with black zipties holding it on....works good and very inexpensive. Damps the sound better than tape, but prolly not quite as good as the neoprene ones for $20.

Thanks for the comments guys.


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## Gt Eunuch (Mar 21, 2008)

Tennis Racket tape works really well, and is cheap too!


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

oregonrider said:


> I use a neoprene chainstay protector, Ive been thinking about using some black hockey tape (or another kind of cloth tape).


I use an old tire tube to wrap it, and electrical tape to secure the ends. The tube rubber is super durable.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Gt Eunuch said:


> Tennis Racket tape works really well, and is cheap too!


Good idea too.


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## GhostRyder (May 14, 2008)

As far as packs go -- I couldn't be happier with my Dakine Nomad. Steepandcheap.com on sale for 75% off. I've seen it on there a few times. I also have a Camelbak Thermobak 3liter. Just hydration, no pockets. The Dakine is tits though.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Kona Wah Wah pedals rock! I've beat them over rocks and tree roots and the hold up great and are very low profile (thin). 

Stock Shimano Alivio RD-M410 rear derailleur works, but needs to go soon. I keep dropping the chain off the middle and small rings in the real technical and/or rough sections of the trail due to the low spring tension on the chain.

Dart3 forks work, but are heavy and need better damping. They also have too much stiction and don't really work all that smoothly out in the technical stuff.

Stock Alex 26RHD wheels that came on my 2008 Specialized Rockhopper Disc are crap! The front wheel is a 28 spoke setup and the rear is 32 spoke, both with alloy nipples and unknown spokes that Specialized uses. I've bent both rims several times and only the front will stay decently true....at least for now. My rear wheel is bent again (little hop in it....mostly side-to-side wobble) and I'm using good body English to weight/un-weight the tires as I drop off and climb up stuff.

Over the past couple months I've ridden the Granite Bay trails around Folsom Lake, Flume Trail at Lake Tahoe Rim trail, American River Confluence trail, Hidden Falls Park in Auburn CA, Salmon Falls in Folsom CA, and today did 23.33 miles on Pioneer Trail above Nevada City CA.

After today's awesome ride it's clear that I need some good wheels that will last a long time but aren't heavy pigs! Searched and couldn't find the weight of my stock wheels anywhere. 

Also wondering about some Easton Monkey Lite bars to drop more weight off my bike and lessen the vibration to my hands and arms. Running about 30 - 32psi front and rear tires works the best for me.

Suggestions for upgrade replacements in all these areas?

EDIT: I'm 6'2" 185lbs and my Mule is 20lbs with water, tools and snacks in it.

Looking at Sun Rhyno Lites, WTB Dual Duty, or an as yet unknown Mavic with sealed bearings. LBS is looking into a good All Mountain setup for me. 

Suggestions?


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Decided to go wtih the WTB Dual Duty and XT hub set of front and rear wheels.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2008)

I'd run higher tire pressure with your weight and on a hard tail if you are bending rims.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Thanks, but my rims are not bending due to hits from low pressure.

Looking at some Fox Vanilla R or Fox Vanilla RLC forks in the 9mm open dropout configuration, any real difference between a 2007, 2008, and 2009 model?


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Bought WTB Dual Duty wheel set with XT hubs, etc.....rocked em last weekend and they are still true! SLightly heavier than my stock wheels, but couldn't feel the difference pedalling up the mountain. Dual Duties are definitely more solid on the downhill, rocks and roots!!! Very worthy upgrade so far. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I really like the Fox Vanila 125RLC that a friend has on his hardtail, but the new ones are all 140mm (5.5") travel. Seems like 140mm is too much for my bike that came with 100mm (4") forks, but think that 125mm (5") would be about the max to use on this bike especially considering the frame is not gusseted at the head tube.

I'm concerned that I don't over-stress the frame, specifically the headtube area, which is one reason that I called the different companies. Not as concerned about the warranty as I am about if something snaps.

Prefer spring over air for it's small bump and high speed stutter bump handling. Less parts to break or wear out, no air pump to mess with or air to leak out.

Called Fox Shox for some recommendations and they were less than helpful...dude just wanted to get rid of me instead of recommending a good fork for my bike??? Mentioned a Float 140RLC and that it could be shimmed down to 100mm travel with some (included?) bushings but was not very informative or specific on this. :madman: 

Specialized phone number from their website for customer service went to a disconnected telephone line without any forwarding or referal number............??? :madman: So I emailed them and haven't heard back yet.

Sooo, I'm looking at the RockShox Revelation 426 Coil (spring) U-Turn, it's rated as AM, it's specs and price are good. Adjustable travel 85-130mm, 4.5 lbs. (little heavy but lighter than Dart3 by about 1/2 lb.), Motion Control, external rebound adjust, low speed compression to 'Lock' with floodgate, aluminum 1 1/8 steer tube, 32mm 7000 series straight wall aluminum low friction anodized upper tubes. 

EDIT: How bout the Rockshox Recon coil spring?

Any problems fitting Kenda Nevegal dtc 2.35" tires on these? Clearance at the arch?


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Ordered a pair of Kenda Nevegal 2.35" Stick-E tires and they should be here tomorrow!


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## thepaul (May 27, 2008)

Fun to read this thread. 

I wonder if it would have been cheaper to buy a more expensive bike up front than to upgrade all these components? Probably not as much fun though.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

thepaul said:


> Fun to read this thread.
> 
> I wonder if it would have been cheaper to buy a more expensive bike up front than to upgrade all these components? Probably not as much fun though.


Thanks and yes it would have been cheaper and wiser on my part....but I was trying to save money. 

Kenda Nevegal 2.35" Stick-E tires work great! Noticeably more pedalling effort than the stockers but their traction and volume have already saved a couple of crashes over tree roots and rocks. The extra effort is not too bad, but noticeable. Oh and no problem fitting these fatter tires on the front or rear....fit great.

WIsh I had bought a little higher bike with better forks....Dart3 is better than Suntour but that's not saying much....LOL> I am very happy with the rest of the bike though, now that I also have some stronger wheels, stockers arent' good for much if you ride hard.

So now I'm looking at air spring forks for thier lighter weight. The RS Revelation 426 (Air All Travel or U-Turn), Fox Float (maybe) if it can truly be adjusted down to 100 - 120mm travel with internal limiter bushings, RS Recon Race, Reba (Race, Team, SL), Tora 318 (air U-Turn)....

Really like the AM rating of the Revelation because it seems that I'm bending or braking parts already.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

How long will my Dart3 fork last? So far I have about 400 miles on it...........


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## Razorfish (May 9, 2008)

Natedogz said:


> How long will my Dart3 fork last? So far I have about 400 miles on it...........


Either 1 mile or a million miles. These forks have a high defect rate. If they don't blow-out within the first few hard rides then they're good. Sadly I know this because mine exploded. haha


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Thanks for the info Razorfish. 

I was having some hand pain/numbness and so I bought a set of Lizard Skins North Shore lock on grips and they are much better than stock Specialized....larger diameter similar rubber softness and they don't move around at all.

Grips here: http://lizardskins.com/products/vie...name=North Shore Lock-On&name2=&page_number=2

I bought the all black ones and they look good too!

Got about 450 miles on it now and think my chain is wearing out....have to look into this further....doesn't show stretch signs when measured with a tape...


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## ScareyH22A (Sep 24, 2006)

Wuts my Intense 5.5 considered as?


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

ScareyH22A said:


> Wuts my Intense 5.5 considered as?


Trail bike according to their site: http://www.intensecycles.com/2008/bikes.php

Just bought a Nite Rider MiNewt USB x2....seems like a great helmet light. I rode with a group last week for my first real night ride and based on what I saw (pictures of beams and trails are a big help, but I had to see for myself before shelling out the $$$)....it is going to fit right in. Haven't decided on my bar light yet, but will prolly use this bar mounted until I get a second light. Or should I use it as helmet mounted even though I dont' have a bar light yet???


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## ScareyH22A (Sep 24, 2006)

Thanks!

Nashbar has the L&M Arc Li-ion Cub HID system (675 lumens) for $237.99 after the promo code right now.


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## LIIT (Sep 8, 2008)

I find my AM bike harder to ride than my XC bike. The extra travel, slightly higher bottom bracket, slightly longer wheelbase with fatter tires. I've lost confidence on my regular trails, but am still looking forward to taking it to the mountain. Is that normal? 

Been working on riding a wheelie for the first time in life. Tried all day with my AM bike-nuttin. 10 minutes on my XC bike I ran a wheelie for 3 pedal strokes--A BIG deal for me haha. What gives--are balance points on AM setups hard to find? Both are FS.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

LIIT, Yeah that is kinda what I've found on the couple short test rides (one up on Hallelujah trail) when I've tried the AM bikes. I'm leaning towards a heavier duty XC 4" travel FS 29er bike for my next bike. Shorter travel is usually lighter weight for climbing too!

AM bikes are not meant to wheelie...they are made to keep both wheels in contact unless you're jumping it.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Natedogz said:


> AM bikes are not meant to wheelie...they are made to keep both wheels in contact unless you're jumping it.


Why do you say that? Shorter stem, slacker angles, higher center of gravity.... I find these things make it easier to wheelie.


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## Razorfish (May 9, 2008)

kapusta said:


> Why do you say that? Shorter stem, slacker angles, higher center of gravity.... I find these things make it easier to wheelie.


He probably just meant that ground contact = control. While the wheelie is a needed skill for certain obstacles, control is more important than random, unnecessary wheelies.

Wheelies get you chicks though.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Razorfish said:


> Wheelies get you chicks though.


Isn't that the whole point of riding to start with?


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Razorfish said:


> He probably just meant that ground contact = control. While the wheelie is a needed skill for certain obstacles, control is more important than random, unnecessary wheelies....


Basically what I meant.....maybe not a great statement on my part though.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

W0W, been too long since I updated this thread! Never did install the Mr Tuffy's in the tires....never got that many flats and definitely not worth the weigh penalty. Also never used the toe clips/cages whatever ya want to call them....that is some scary pita old school bike parts there. Love my Kona WahWah flat pedals! Love this black bike too, but shortly after my last posting in this thread I found a great deal on the same bike but in 29er! So....I bought a nice used orange 2008 Specialized Rockhopper Disc 29er and lovin it!

26" bike is EDIT: SOLD.  Still got some spare 26" wheels though......PM me if you're interested.

Couple of current pics:




























Been riding the 29er only since I bought it and don't want to go back to 26" wheels....I was going to keep it for a second/spare bike but changed my mind....lookin for another 29er to fill this spot.......really want an SS too now! =P

Pic of my 29er (the orange one  but would also want a Stumpjumper FSR 29er with the rear Brain shock!)............from a ride couple weeks ago:










Swapped my Lizard Skins North Shore Lock-On grips and Kona Wah Wah pedals over to my new to me 29er....rest of the bike was stick for awhile. Then I bought a WTB Lazer V saddle for it....liked it at first but swapped it out for the stocker at least for now to do a comparison between the two. Not sure that I like how the WTB is wider in the middel (as viewed from above) and tapers out wider towards the bottom. I was getting some bad taint area chafing from long rides with lots of chatter, stutter bumps......riding seated mostly. Finally determined that I had my saddle too high (after swapping back to stocker) and getting a saddle sore after this ride on a cool rainy day.

FYI: Chafing is all healed up weeks ago......asked the pharmacist at local drugstore and she recommended this stuff called Boudreaux's Butt Paste............it worked even better for healing this than Neosporin ointment (which I consider a great healing aid!) Yes, I know it sounds fawkin funny....but that is really what it's called and works great:

https://www.buttpaste.com/BLButtPaste.php

Back to my new to me 29er updates! Bought a 60mm Syntace Superforce 31.8 stem used and in excellent condition from another MTBR member to get myself bettter fitted on this bike. Prolly should be riding a size Large in 29er due to the ETT length....even though my XL 26" bike fits me perfectly. The stock stem on both bikes is 90mm, the 60mm degree rise is great and now I moved my seat back to approximately centered on the post and am sitting a bit more upright.....ALOT better fit now. I like the long wheelbase and short stem! My steering is less twitchy (but feels more directly connected) and the bike handles even better than before!!!


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

My freshly mounted stem:










This is a very light and strong stem that passes tests that other mfrs. just don't bother with and is even better looking in person.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Got tired of having a wet azzzz with a brown mud stripe up my back on wet and muddy winter rides so bought a Zefal Swan rear fender:

https://www.zefal.com/zefal/produit.php?key=248001

Kinda dark picture on my garage floor just before first use:










This fender is lightweight and mounts real low right over my HT rear 29er tire and is long enough with the perfect shape to really keep the mud and water off your back! Yet it is not over wide or otherwise obnoxious or in the way while riding.

Thier website shows a screw tightening device for mounting it to the seatpost. The one that I bought had a ratchet with a kind of over-center QR lever to attach it. I failed and after failure would reinstall but not hold the tension for more than a couple seconds....if that. It also cracked at the pivot adjustment. Took it back to LBS and the guy there gave me a new one to try. When I mentioned the beefier thumb wheel screw mount of the too short for 29er XX'T rear fender, he swapped the mount from one of these and said to give that a try! Great customer service! But I'm skeptical about how long the new one will last....

XX'T rear fender:

https://www.zefal.com/zefal/produit.php?key=227201

and mounted on my bike:










Too bad the first fender with the ratcheting seatpost clamp didn't even last 15 miles on the first ride....see pic above at our halfway point of the ride! Hope this one goes the extra miles.....lol!


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Thought that I was going to have to replace the stock Alex RHD/Specialized wheelset right away after my experience with the 26" version.....but they are hangin tough after just one re-truing. Rear has developed a slight wobble again though, so sooner or later they will get replaced with better and wider wheels. Really like the width of the WTB Dual-Duties. 

Stock Specialized Fast Trak 29x2.0 tires have surprised me too! They work great just about everywhere, but I want something with more volume for the burly singletrack especially since this is a hardtail the extra cushion would be nice. These wire bead version weigh about 800 grams each as best as I can find, don't have a good scale to weigh just the tires. Lighter is nice, but only if they can handle the roots and rocks that I've been riding. Even in mud these tires do well enough at least for the type of mud that I usually encounter. They will get a little squirrelly in the snottier and/or deeper sections, but are predictable and work for me. I haven't encountered any really long bad mud sections that they couldn't find traction to get through yet.

Any tire recommendations? Thinkin maybe a 29x2.2"....wish Specialized made the Fast Trak in this size!


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

My 08 Specialized Rochkhopper Disc 29er rear wheel bearings have come loose several times lately. Only mods on the bike at the moment are grips, stem, fork and pedals. Think it maybe all the gritty sandy mud rides this winter permeated the rear seals and are eating up the axle bearings and freehub.

I have a good set of Park Tool cone/lock nut wrenches that I used to really tighten the **** outta the drive side (was careful not to strip the threads casue it felt like I could have if I tightened the locknut more.) Then I used the non-drive side to do my bearing pre-load adjusting (that way I don't need to pull the cassette off to get both wrenches on the nuts). Somehow my rear wheel bearings are loose again even after my last very careful adjustment. 

Two weeks later.....Haven't had it all apart. Don't see how the nuts could have come loose again already....felt like I was going to strip the threads if I tightened it more. Guess I'll have to remove the cassette and check. Noticed that after sitting for a little bit if I turn the pedals backwards the cassette doesn't want to freewheel (and the upper drive side of my chain just goes slack) unless I turn the cassette itself backwards a little and then I can spin it backwards by using the pedals. This is with my bike just sitting on the ground, not when riding. When riding it has seemed to be ok. 

I need to tear apart my freehub and rear axle bearings....just didn't want to admit it I guess.  Thinkin about an upgraded rear wheel and then clean, inspect and repack all the bearings in the stocker (for spare) if it's not beyond repair already. New front wheel prolly later unless I find a really great deal on a set.


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## Ray Lee (Aug 17, 2007)

I am no expert but my hub bearing came loose on both my new bikes, On the first I tried like you did to just tighten up one side but it just came loose again.... I pull the cog and did both sides to spec and they have not come loose again.



Natedogz said:


> My 08 Specialized Rochkhopper Disc 29er rear wheel bearings have come loose several times lately. Only mods on the bike at the moment are grips, stem, fork and pedals. Think it maybe all the gritty sandy mud rides this winter permeated the rear seals and are eating up the axle bearings and freehub.
> 
> I have a good set of Park Tool cone/lock nut wrenches that I used to really tighten the **** outta the drive side (was careful not to strip the threads casue it felt like I could have if I tightened the locknut more.) Then I used the non-drive side to do my bearing pre-load adjusting (that way I don't need to pull the cassette off to get both wrenches on the nuts). Somehow my rear wheel bearings are loose again even after my last very careful adjustment.
> 
> ...


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Ray Lee said:


> I am no expert but my hub bearing came loose on both my new bikes, On the first I tried like you did to just tighten up one side but it just came loose again.... I pull the cog and did both sides to spec and they have not come loose again.


.
Not unusual for them to need slight readjusting after some riding. Thanks for the suggestion, but that is what I did....from post #70 of this thread:



Natedogz said:


> ...Park wrenches that I used to really tighten the **** outta the drive side (was careful not to strip the threads casue it felt like I could have if I tightened the locknut more.) Then I used the non-drive side to do my bearing pre-load adjusting (that way I don't need to pull the cassette off to get both wrenches on the nuts)....


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Picked up my new Mary SS (29er of course!) a week ago and have been riding it around the neighborhood to get it dialed in. Went for my first trail ride yesterday after work and this bike ROCKS!!!! Actually had thoughts of selling my geared 29er last night when I got home!  This bike is too much fun!!!!

I just installed Ergons, Easton EA50 low-rise aluminum bar, and shorter (90mm) stem on my new Mary SS and it is excellent! I had the stem from one of my Specialized bikes after a previous swap.

Bars in the 31.8 clamp diameter:
https://www.eastonbike.com/PRODUCTS/BARS/bar_rise_ea50.html

Tried the Mary bars for a couple 1/2 hour rides around the neighborhood and didn't like them...they put pressure in a weird place on my outer upper fore-arm that was uncomfortable and the stock steel Salsa stem was too long (120mm I think.) I like to sit a bit more upright....everyone has what works for them. Rode a racer's GF Rig last week.....hated it...all stretched out, bars lower than seat, thin grips, eggbeaters. I like flat pedals, Kona Wah Wah's have been good for me.

I bought the GP1 grips:

https://www.ergon-bike.com/

Friday evening cellphone ride pics, I'll try to get some better ones next time out:



















Running stock pedals for now, really like the Kona Wah Wahs on my other bikes, but apparently they are hard/impossible for non Kona dealer shops to order??? Anybody know what's up with that? The shop just started stocking these Premium brand Slimline pedals which look almost the same, but have 4 less pins per side (8 less pins total) and side (inner and outer) pins are grub screws instead of cap screws....so they can get ripped out of the pedals easier. Also the center bar (where the shaft and bearings are inside of) is narrower.....not sure I really like all that and they are still $80. I really like the 17mm thin-ness, lightweight, and strength of these pedals. Any suggestions for good thin flat pedals?

Premium Slimline pedals:

https://www.danscomp.com/465046.php?cat=PARTS

Kona Wah Wah pedals:

https://content.konaworld.com/webstore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=205


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Need to weigh my Mary....stock is supposed to be 27.5 lbs, but I swapped a few parts around a couple times working to get it dialed in and at the moment it has different bars (Easton EA50), stem (leftover Specialized 90mm, 31.8mm clamp from 2008 Rockhopper 29er), grips (Lizard Skin Charger Lock-Ons), saddle (WTB Devo), and pedals (Kona Wah Wahs.)

Ditched the Ergon grips for the moment, liked them at first, but not so much after a couple rides.

Pic on ride 5/7/2009:










WTB Devo saddle:

https://www.wtb.com/products/saddles/racing/devo/

LIzard Skins Lock-On Charger grips:

https://www.lizardskins.com/product...119&name=Charger Lock-On&name2=&page_number=1

Easton EA50 riser bar:

https://www.eastonbike.com/PRODUCTS/BARS/09/bar_rise_ea50_'09.html


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## djevox (Jul 18, 2008)

o'~o martin said:


> Definitely avoid Cannondales.
> My brother owns a Specialized and its solid. The RockHopper has a good fork with the lockout feature for road riding and the disc brakes are good. The Marin's are running a lower end fork but the disc brakes are equivalent.
> I personally have a more aggresive riding style and find the Giants are a little too XC for me.
> Out of all the bikes you listed I would take the RockHopper especially at that price. It's worth the extra money.


Have you even owned a cannondale that has had a problem? I've had three that I used for dirt jumping and one for AM. The only problems came from various shimano components. It had nothing to do with cannondale.

To OP, sorry for the threadjack, and congrats on the bike.


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## Natedogz (Apr 4, 2008)

Ergons were great for like four or five rides and then started giving me fore-arm pain...think I was death-gripping because they don't really give a good finger wrap around the grip in the gnarly terrain. Lizard Skins Charger Lock-Ons now for months! 

Also went clipless with Crank Brothers Smarty pedals that I got for a couple ales...they were loose and crunchy after only three rides...wtf!?? Quickly replaced with Crank Bros Smarty SL which are way smoother and holding up much better too. 

Swapped my rear tire to reverse direction and now it climbs better especially in the loose stuff. My geared HT doesn't get much love these days even though I put a bunch of new blingin paarts on it this summer (while I was riding my SS!) Might have to swap my new Avid Juicy 3.5s over to my SS.........


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## traffic002 (Dec 16, 2008)

Nice bike! Ha, looks like you got into or back into mtn riding about the same time I did...well, maybe 6mos sooner.

I've since gone from an old HT to FS and to rigid SS as well.

What gearing are you running?
Although I love my LX hydros on my Rush, I kinda like the simplistic elegance of the cable brake on my Monocog. And after spending some time adjusting the calipers properly, they work very well. Still doesn't match the feel of the LX, but very functional.

BTW, you mentioned your bearings were loose on your old bike. How does one tell that their bearings are loose?

I've been noticing some "pops" or clicks coming from the fork area. I think my headset is tight. So wondering if I'm feeling some "play" in the hubs. I'm wondering if I'm feeling something similar in the rear. Could be hubs or could be the sliding drop-outs "adjusting" on their own...


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