# Mixed Riding Group - SL and Full Size



## NS-NV (Aug 15, 2006)

Trying to get an idea of how big the difference is for average riders, when most of the group is riding full size motors, and one guy is on an SL.

For solo rides, I really like the idea of the Kenevo SL, but fear that I’d be riding solo on group rides too..

Anyone have any experience with this?


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

There is no answer to that. You know the people you might ride with if they use eco or max assist
i have no clue. My guess is your battery will be empty sooner.
The light thing is just a marketing trap. My Yamaha/Giant Ebike has 5 levels of assistance so i control
if i want light assit, medium, a bit more or full assist. Like to climb days when the grip is low i might need 
to be on level 2 or 3 (to avoid spinning) but the next day with good grip i might use 4 or max assist.
The weight saving is mainly the battery. Being used to 1 bike i can extract the best of it. There is no reason
to buy something i do not need just because it is available.
It cost me nothing, i never carry liquid on a bike so i save weight, my waist line is 28 so i save weight again free.
Do you hate free?
Do you do those?


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

When in doubt, get a bike similar to what your group is riding to level the playing field.

Those light ebikes have less assist, expecting the rider to put in more work to get the same mileage, considering a lot of weight savings is from halving the battery. Full size battery is like 7.5 lbs.

I'd rather have the quiver killer, personally, and I found that a full size enduro emtb with good geo is a good replacement for all other bike types. It's speedy enough to replace road, XC, etc. The geo makes it handle well. The enduro level kit makes it more durable too. The motor, battery, remote, etc might add like $1800 to the price and 15 lbs compared to a normal enduro bike, but carbon upgrades cost more than that (like at 50+% tax over alum). I find that the motor+battery cures the urge for upgrades.

The Marin Alpine Trail E2 is the bike to get, IMO.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Your buddies will drop you, unless you are in very good bike form and your buddies are newbs.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

Depends how fit you are and how lazy your mates are on the full fat. If you are unfit on an SL and your mates are in trail or turbo mode then you'll be riding alone. If it's flowy higher speed trails then the SL will pull away with much less motor drag above the assistance limit. 
You can maintain fitness on the Kenevo SL....you will drop fitness on a full fat assuming you have a decent level of fitness to begin with.
Getting back onto a normal bike is a shock after riding a full fat for a week...really highlights how much effort the bike has taken away. The Kenevo SL is a much, much easier transition.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

NS-NV said:


> Anyone have any experience with this?


it depends how much climbing is involved with the ride
i can keep a full fat pace on the flats if i put in extra effort
but with only 30 nms available it slows way down with a hill, so you have to shift more to keep cadence
if in doubt i would go with the new levo as it has the power as well as better nimbleness if that's a word


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

If you’re Peter Sagan, you’d smoke the Levo, on a mtb.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I had a 50nm and i would not pay for an assist wich is less. Now i have 70 and that is plenty.
30 is just to what . . . sound cool?


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## NS-NV (Aug 15, 2006)

thanks for the replies. I am partial to the Kenevo SL because of how it rides, motor does not rattle, and I think the integration is years ahead of everyone else. Lower weight is just a nice bonus. 

For me (and the E guys I know), E rides are for big bikes. Essentially replacing shuttles and heli-drops.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

NS-NV said:


> thanks for the replies. I am partial to the Kenevo SL because of how it rides, motor does not rattle, and I think the integration is years ahead of everyone else. Lower weight is just a nice bonus.
> 
> For me (and the E guys I know), E rides are for big bikes. Essentially replacing shuttles and heli-drops.


I want a kenevo SL but 9 out of 10 of my friends have full sized ebikes, and most have 2 batteries. It would work fine for short rides, or if the people on full sized bikes don’t mind climbing slower, but other than that the person on the SL will feel like they are holding up the group and/or have to work twice as hard to keep up. 

Also it’s kinda expensive to have 2 ebikes.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

RBoardman said:


> I want a kenevo SL but 9 out of 10 of my friends have full sized ebikes, and most have 2 batteries. It would work fine for short rides, or if the people on full sized bikes don’t mind climbing slower, but other than that the person on the SL will feel like they are holding up the group and/or have to work twice as hard to keep up.
> 
> Also it’s kinda expensive to have 2 ebikes.


I agree. I wouldn’t be any faster on a Kenevo SL, than my Levo. I’d also get more runs in on the Levo. Maybe you should convince your buds to by SL’s!


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Gutch said:


> I agree. I wouldn’t be any faster on a Kenevo SL, than my Levo. I’d also get more runs in on the Levo. Maybe you should convince your buds to by SL’s!


I think the price is a hard sell for most.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

If you are have competitive friends… don’t bring a knife to a gunfight. 
=sParty


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## AEyogi (Nov 19, 2021)

I have a Kenevo SL and love it, I would definitely not want a full fat emtb. It seems that you either love or hate an SL.
I sometimes ride with other ebikes, and I am in much better condition than the other ebikers. If they are going in eco, I can pedal hard and keep up, but they completely blow me away if they are going in the faster settings. In those cases, they either wait for me at the summit, or they get more laps in.


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## RDO (Apr 26, 2016)

I've got a Levo SL and love it. Spent a lot of time (and still do) riding regular bikes for fun, sight seeing as well as to stay in shape. For the Western North Carolina mountains the power of the SL is more than enough if you're in decent physical shape. As it is I probably spend 70 to 80% of most rides with power off. After enjoying an e-bike ride I often suffer exercise guilt that compels me to go out on a regular bike to compensate. 

Glad I enjoy riding solo or with my wife and so I don't have to keep with anyone. I can see the OP's issue though. FWIW I think group rides are overrated.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

RDO said:


> I've got a Levo SL and love it. Spent a lot of time (and still do) riding regular bikes for fun, sight seeing as well as to stay in shape. For the Western North Carolina mountains the power of the SL is more than enough if you're in decent physical shape. As it is I probably spend 70 to 80% of most rides with power off. After enjoying an e-bike ride I often suffer exercise guilt that compels me to go out on a regular bike to compensate.
> 
> Glad I enjoy riding solo or with my wife and so I don't have to keep with anyone. I can see the OP's issue though. FWIW I think group rides are overrated.


Damn bro, if you’re riding WNC 70-80% of the time with power off on your SL, you are way beyond average shape. Congrats 👍🏻


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## RDO (Apr 26, 2016)

Gutch said:


> Damn bro, if you’re riding WNC 70-80% of the time with power off on your SL, you are way beyond average shape. Congrats 👍🏻


Maybe it's because I cherrypick the routes. Though I am in pretty good shape for 70. Anyway thanks for the congrats.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Congrats, yes.
That said, for me personally if I rode my ebike that much with the power off, I believe I'd sell it and just stick to pedal bikes.
Not slamming anyone, just saying to each their own. When I'm ebiking, I'm ebiking and for me ebiking is a different sport than when I'm mountain biking.
I use my ebike primarily for 3 things:

Doing trailwork -- pulling a heavy BOB trailer w/chainsaw, lopper & tread tools
Exploring, often on remote doubletracks that I wouldn't bother with aboard a pedal bike
Looping winch & plummet systems like Oregon's Alsea Falls, Blackrock Riding Area, Sandy Ridge, etc.
For the latter, on a pedal bike I typically ride one lap, two if I've got plenty of energy as each lap might amount to 1,500-2,000' gain. With the ebike, I'll do two or three laps.
In addition to these three uses, I also ride the ebike just for the sake of riding it but typically do so whenever I'm recovering from a hard day aboard the pedal bike.
Again, to each their own. These are tools of fun and should be used however their owner sees fit. If you like it with power off, more power to you (so to speak.) 
=sParty


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## RDO (Apr 26, 2016)

Sparticus said:


> Congrats, yes.
> That said, for me personally if I rode my ebike that much with the power off, I believe I'd sell it and just stick to pedal bikes.
> Not slamming anyone, just saying to each their own. When I'm ebiking, I'm ebiking and for me ebiking is a different sport than when I'm mountain biking.
> I use my ebike primarily for 3 things:
> ...


I'm up for the idea of a "separate sport". Was going to sell off several motorcycles to finance and add a couple of full power Levos for my wife and I. The Levos were going to replace the time spent on motorcycles, which has become less and less. I found a mullet model at a local store that was the smallest size Specialized makes (an S1). It was too big for her, the standover height was compromised by the shortness of the top bar. The only way she could stand over it was if you removed the seat.

When it didn't work out, I was somewhat relieved. It would have taken a lot of discipline to not get over-addicted to the power of the full Levo. 

I still do use pedal bikes a lot. Love the transition from the weight of the SL to a regular trail or downcountry bike. Hard to put it in words, but that weight and the unadulterated pedaling are much more significant than they sound. Additionally the two closest trail systems here don't allow ebikes. 

Speaking of Oregon, am going to be in Southeast Portland for a month or two starting in late March. Am trying to decide between taking a Creo or the Levo SL. There's a website called "Our Mother the Mountain" (Our Mother The Mountain) that's got some great looking gravel rides in the Portland area.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

RDO said:


> I'm up for the idea of a "separate sport". Was going to sell off several motorcycles to finance and add a couple of full power Levos for my wife and I. The Levos were going to replace the time spent on motorcycles, which has become less and less. I found a mullet model at a local store that was the smallest size Specialized makes (an S1). It was too big for her, the standover height was compromised by the shortness of the top bar. The only way she could stand over it was if you removed the seat.
> 
> When it didn't work out, I was somewhat relieved. It would have taken a lot of discipline to not get over-addicted to the power of the full Levo.
> 
> ...


LIV/Giant makes a great Ebike for 5 feet tall or more Intrigue X E+ 2 (2021) | Women Trail bike | Liv Cycling US
I have the embolden, it always works and i love it.


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## RDO (Apr 26, 2016)

33red said:


> LIV/Giant makes a great Ebike for 5 feet tall or more Intrigue X E+ 2 (2021) | Women Trail bike | Liv Cycling US
> I have the embolden, it always works and i love it.


Thanks for the tip. Looks very interesting. Hard part is going to be finding one for her to test for fit.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

RDO said:


> I'm up for the idea of a "separate sport". Was going to sell off several motorcycles to finance and add a couple of full power Levos for my wife and I. The Levos were going to replace the time spent on motorcycles, which has become less and less. I found a mullet model at a local store that was the smallest size Specialized makes (an S1). It was too big for her, the standover height was compromised by the shortness of the top bar. The only way she could stand over it was if you removed the seat.
> 
> When it didn't work out, I was somewhat relieved. It would have taken a lot of discipline to not get over-addicted to the power of the full Levo.
> 
> ...


I hardly ever ride my good ol' Honda XR4 anymore. I love it but I'm just getting too old and I don't have any local moto-riding friends. Moto is not a good sport to do solo.
On the continuum: [pedal bike <----> off-road moto], personally I'd put the ebike a bit closer to the moto end than the pedal bike end.
At least the way I ride mine, which is usually in turbo mode (talking about the times I'm JRA as opposed to pulling the BOB trailer.)
I'm a bigger guy and it's fun to feel the full power. That said, I also love riding my pedal bikes -- actually love pedal biking more than riding my ebike.
The FS pedal bikes are especially preferred down hill (that's two words, not "downhill.") Even thought my 54# ebike has 29x3" tires and darn good suspension, it feels a bit piggish compared to the lighter weight long travel pedal bike.
Have fun on your trip to Oregon. If you get a chance to ride Falls Creek Trail (actually in WA, up the Wind River about 20 miles north of Carson, WA), be sure to take it. Falls Creek is one of my favorite trails on the planet.
=sParty


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

P.S. FWIW re: fit challenges for short women. My GF is 5'2" riding an XS Levo SL.
Her ebike came with 29" wheels; we replaced these with 27.5" wheels / 2.8" tires.
Her ebike's stock dropper was something like 100mm or 125mm IIRC.
We immediately replaced it with a OneUp 150mm dropper (fits easily.)
Now she can flat foot when coming to a stop with the dropper lowered all the way.
Not exactly cheap fixes but well worth the investment to make her bike ideal for her size.
At only 105#, her SL does a good job of hoisting her up the hill as well as my full-power Trek Rail under my 200# weight.
I think my more substantial battery will last a bit longer than her SL's, but not by much.
In other words, our bikes are pretty well matched to our sizes/weights for going ebiking together.
=sParty


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## RDO (Apr 26, 2016)

Sparticus said:


> P.S. FWIW re: fit challenges for short women. My GF is 5'2" riding an XS Levo SL.
> Her ebike came with 29" wheels; we replaced these with 27.5" wheels / 2.8" tires.
> Her ebike's stock dropper was something like 100mm or 125mm IIRC.
> We immediately replaced it with a OneUp 150mm dropper (fits easily.)
> ...


My wife (5'3")'s Levo SL is the expert S, which is the smallest size it comes in, I guess only the comp comes in XS size. She does fine on it as long as things don't get too technical and she fears wiping out. So far she wants to keep the 29" wheels because of the confidence in rolling over obstacles.

Does you girlfriend lower her seat on most stops? That was an option we considered for the full Levo, but decided was too much hassle. 

That works out to a nice equation that she's almost half your weight and your bike is double the power. I guess with your size you never get to borrow her bike.


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## NS-NV (Aug 15, 2006)

I agree with the notion that emts and mtb are similar, but different activities. To me, one is not better than the other, so leveraging the differences to optimize my experience makes the most sense. E for me is big climbs and big descents, so it makes sense to go big power and big battery. 

My hang up (in comparison to S's setup), is dropping big cash on what I see as an unfinished product. I can accept that we are a few years away from a proper E drive train (integrated motor/ transmission). I understand why Bosch and Shimano motors rattle, but it is a big annoyance to me. What I really cant get over is the janky screen interface/ controls that a >$10k bike is being sold with. Ya, it doesn't affect the ride quality, but the big S and Rocky Mountain are doing it right. I guess I just want a little more refinement for the money.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

NS-NV said:


> I agree with the notion that emts and mtb are similar, but different activities. To me, one is not better than the other, so leveraging the differences to optimize my experience makes the most sense. E for me is big climbs and big descents, so it makes sense to go big power and big battery.
> 
> My hang up (in comparison to S's setup), is dropping big cash on what I see as an unfinished product. I can accept that we are a few years away from a proper E drive train (integrated motor/ transmission). I understand why Bosch and Shimano motors rattle, but it is a big annoyance to me. What I really cant get over is the janky screen interface/ controls that a >$10k bike is being sold with. Ya, it doesn't affect the ride quality, but the big S and Rocky Mountain are doing it right. I guess I just want a little more refinement for the money.


Agree that today’s ebikes will be laughing stock in a few years.
We knew this going in but decided they’re fun enough now to take the plunge.
Low expectations = key to happiness.
=sParty


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## RDO (Apr 26, 2016)

NS-NV said:


> .. is dropping big cash on what I see as an unfinished product. I can accept that we are a few years away from a proper E drive train (integrated motor/ transmission). I understand why Bosch and Shimano motors rattle, but it is a big annoyance to me. What I really cant get over is the janky screen interface/ controls that a >$10k bike is being sold with. Ya, it doesn't affect the ride quality, but the big S and Rocky Mountain are doing it right. I guess I just want a little more refinement for the money.


This bothers me too. In addition to the ridiculous prices there is the scarcity issue. At my age though it's pretty much now or never. The bright side is that the high prices and scarcity have made them more of a rarity out here in the backwoods part of NC. Less crowds. I doubt that's the case in more affluent states like California and most urban areas.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

RDO said:


> Thanks for the tip. Looks very interesting. Hard part is going to be finding one for her to test for fit.


You can trust their chart. At 5 7 i love my small because i love short bikes.
So under 5 2 she needs XS than there is a grey zone she might opt for 27 or 29 wheels if she goes small.
In that grey zone i would prefer the XS but it is a personal choice.
My dealer just gives back the deposit if it does not fit they know the demand is strong.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Forget anything I have said in various posts about the Kenevo SL not being the right bike for the job, for me. New (to me) bike added to the stable. (Ignore the extremely messy shelves in the background, lol).


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## AEyogi (Nov 19, 2021)

RBoardman said:


> Forget anything I have said in various posts about the Kenevo SL not being the right bike for the job, for me. New (to me) bike added to the stable. (Ignore the extremely messy shelves in the background, lol).


Gorgeous, congratulations. That thing is a beast.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

If you had a real-world example of a first-world problem this would be it!

I will submit this thread to dictionary.com so they can link it to the meaning of first-world problems.

Get out there and ride and grin and care not about such piffling irrelevant thoughts.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

plummet said:


> If you had a real-world example of a first-world problem this would be it!
> 
> I will submit this thread to dictionary.com so they can link it to the meaning of first-world problems.
> 
> Get out there and ride and grin and care not about such piffling irrelevant thoughts.


When buying a $10k bike, knowing you are picking the correct one is a very important decision. Asking for advise on the topic is completely reasonable.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

new one apparently coming out with more power, but my sl was 10 plus k so i don't really see replacing it anytime soon so i'm glad it makes me grin, if i were in the market for a new bike i would wait a bit, the mahle motor has been extremely reliable


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

The lite ebikes are free. Me and most ebike rider can just go ride and leave the battery home.
So we can alternate riding for fun with riding to prove we are athletes.
I paid 4,000$ for my FS with 70nm, 500Wh.
Am i going to pay 8,000$ for less nm and less Wh?
Hell no !


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## RDO (Apr 26, 2016)

33red said:


> The lite ebikes are free. Me and most ebike rider can just go ride and leave the battery home.
> So we can alternate riding for fun with riding to prove we are athletes.
> I paid 4,000$ for my FS with 70nm, 500Wh.
> Am i going to pay 8,000$ for less nm and less Wh?
> Hell no !


You do know there is a middle ground? 

One can use a light ebike as a pedal bike for whatever percentage of the ride, then switch to power for steep climbing or escaping hostile dogs. Doesn't work if the battery is at home. Agreed that the price is high, but that's a personal choice. Some people pay 15K for bikes with no motors. So what.

Do you really think the only reason people pedal bikes is to "prove they are athletes"?


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

33red said:


> The lite ebikes are free. Me and most ebike rider can just go ride and leave the battery home.
> So we can alternate riding for fun with riding to prove we are athletes.
> I paid 4,000$ for my FS with 70nm, 500Wh.
> Am i going to pay 8,000$ for less nm and less Wh?
> Hell no !


What ebike did you get for $4k? That’s a great price for any ebike these days. I didn’t buy this because it’s light, I bought it because I truly believe it’s the best descending ebike on the market. Which is what I’m after.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

RBoardman said:


> What ebike did you get for $4k? That’s a great price for any ebike these days. I didn’t buy this because it’s light, I bought it because I truly believe it’s the best descending ebike on the market. Which is what I’m after.


A Giant 2021 Stance E+ 130/120. I use it 12 months for doing my groceries, getting to the trails and
some single tracks. I do not have a car so i ride rain, snow, ice, 350 days a year for the last 21 years..
That Yamaha is just reliable, it needs chains, tires and recharging.


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