# OT: TDI's reliability and repair costs



## garboui (Jul 16, 2004)

right now im in search or a new(used) car. some of the cars that are on my short list are:
toyota matrix
pontiac vibe
jetta wagon TDI
passat wagon TDI
mazda protege 5
honda accord
honda fit (kinda ugly and still too new to get used)
honda element( a little more on gas but too much demand to get a good deal on used)

well theres my short list, theyre in no particular order but i do like the matrix and vibe for their functionality and mileage allthough i really like the looks and rode of the vw wagons. the only problem i have is convincing my dad that the TDI's are reliable and dont cost too much to fix. he says that when they do break they will cost way to much to fix to justifu the fuel economey. my arguement is that because they are diesel they have less parts and therefore less things to go wrong. what are youre guys experiences with TDI's and reliability?


NOTE: all of these cars will have be manual unless the deal is too good.


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

TDI are rediculous reliable. Your dad is probably still thinking about the GM diesels from the mid-eighties that weren't designed with strong enough blocks or seals to handle the compression ratio. VW diesels have a very good reputation. My aunt had a old Rabbit that she drove to over 250k miles and that was late 70s early 80s technology.


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## anthrax (Oct 27, 2004)

My daily driver is a 2004 TDI Golf. I love this car.

I commute about 100 miles a day. The car is crazy reliabel I have 60,000 miles on it already and have had no mecahnical problems what so ever. I have the VW bike rack and haull my bike all over SW Ontario. Even with the bike on the roof three days out of five I still get 45-48mpg. 

Mechanical failures can be costly, but they can be costly on any vehical depending on what fails.

The oil changes can be exspenive, but you can go 10,000 miles between them.

Any way I hope this information helps.

Good Luck,

A


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## 4212darren (Nov 15, 2005)

My dad had a '78 Rabbit Diesel that he drove for 400,000 + kms and just scrapped it when he bought a Diesel Golf. He's been dead for 14 years but my sister still has his old Golf. He drove like a little old man though.


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## el_chupo_ (Nov 15, 2005)

The info I have is based on the fuel system, coming from one of teh top diesel fuel pump rebuilders in the country. 

There are 2 basic types of pumps, mechanical and electronic. The mechanical ones are still found on most big rigs, tractors farm equipment, etc. they are easily rebuilt, inexpensive, and servicable. Many newer automobiles, however, use elcetronic pumps. In paticular, teh VW, and the Dodge, along with Ford and Chevys. According to him, the VW is the worst of them, IF it fails. And he said about 1/3 of em do fail, arround 75-100k miles. When it happens, you have to replace numerous parts, not just the fuel pump, with cost of upwards of $2000 on parts. For this sole reason, he has very strongly urged my dad (who LOVES diesel cars) not to purchase the VW used, or if he does to just plan on it going wrong. If it doesnt, you have some extra cash, if it does, no big deal. He really likes the Mercedes deisels, and frankly isnt too fond of the Dodge pumps either, but they did some minor tweaking in the setup in the last couple years.

Again, this does not mean it will happen, but it can happen, and it will be costly. They are good cars, I know several people that have em. If mileage is your main concern, they should be at the top of your list. If low cost of operation and longevity are main concerns, it is VERY hard to be a Japanese car.

Matt


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## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*From what ive read..*

on car review.com is that the TDI engine is great its the dealer service that sucks..


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## JimC. (Dec 30, 2003)

*have you checked out the $3.95*

issue of Consumer Report that provides all the info you are asking for?

VW didn't make the list for _any_ vehicle due to thier ususal reliability issues.

I'll let you trudge to the library or newsstand to continue your research.

Jim


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## PCC (Sep 5, 2005)

el_chupo_ said:


> The info I have is based on the fuel system, coming from one of teh top diesel fuel pump rebuilders in the country.
> Matt


In my opinion, this guy did your dad a disservice. I was one of the charter members of the forums at www.tdiclub.com (member #67 and I waited almost a week to sign up so I could have had a lower number had I signed up earlier). If you are a TDI owner you need to be reading their forums, participating if you feel inclinded. Most people who visit the TDIClub forums are more knowledgeable about their engines than the mechanics at the VW dealerships who are supposed to work on them.

Fuel pumps do go bad but not as often at 1/3 at 100K. My God, if they were that unreliable they would not have the following that they have. My car went almost 170,000 hard driven miles before I lost it in the rain and totalled it. I've drag raced 1.8Ts and beaten them and kept up with VR6s with that car (yes, it was modified!). I know a group of TDI owners who all have over 100K on their engines and only do regular maintenance on them. These engines, if you change the filters and oil, will outlast the chassis three times over. Sure, there will be cars that fail and forums tend to be places that focus people's attention to these kinds of shortcomings and I have yet to see a trend like this. It is more normal to hear about electrical problems with these cars than mechanical problems. There are occasional turbo failures (at least one resulted in a blown engine) but knowing to not put your foot in it when the revs are below 2000 RPMs will prevent too many failures there.

On a TDI you only need to change the oil, oil filter, fuel filter, air filter, and timing belt on a regular basis. The early cars (A3 Jetta TDI and B4 Passat TDI) can get away with changing the water pump once every third belt but the Mk IV cars should have a new pump with every new belt because you expose the pump when you remove the belt and a water pump failure on these cars is catastrophic (it takes the timing belt out, resulting in valves hitting the tops of the pistons).

My wife refused to allow me to buy another TDI because I think she equates diesels with high performance, now. I guess I should not have driven it all that aggressively when she was in the car. Now I drive an '06 Jetta GLI and I'll be refueling twice as often which means I'll end up paying double to drive the same distance.


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## jaghouse (Mar 21, 2004)

1 vote for Honda. My 95 Accord has 241k on it and still goin strong.


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## stib (Dec 29, 2003)

*Subaru Legacy GT Wagon*

I'd like to suggest the Subaru Legacy GT Wagon. I've had mine for almost a year now and love it. From what I've heard and read, Subarus are pretty reliable. I think the car handles great for a wagon and has good power (250hp), and AWD is an added bonus. It also fits three bikes in the back, no problem. It may not be as mainstream as a Honda, Toyota, or even a VW, but that may have been part of the allure for me.

As for negatives, I don't think the ergonomics are as great as some cars (but the Momo steering wheel feels good in your hands). Also mileage ain't that great (and it requires 91+ octane), but that may be more of a reflection of my driving habits. 

Although it may not be very mainstream, I think the Legacy GT should also be included on your short list.


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## garboui (Jul 16, 2004)

what makes the oil changes so expensive compared to a pump gas engine? are you talking about dealer oil changes?


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## el_chupo_ (Nov 15, 2005)

PCC said:


> In my opinion, this guy did your dad a disservice. I was one of the charter members of the forums at www.tdiclub.com (member #67 and I waited almost a week to sign up so I could have had a lower number had I signed up earlier). If you are a TDI owner you need to be reading their forums, participating if you feel inclinded. Most people who visit the TDIClub forums are more knowledgeable about their engines than the mechanics at the VW dealerships who are supposed to work on them.
> 
> Fuel pumps do go bad but not as often at 1/3 at 100K. My God, if they were that unreliable they would not have the following that they have. My car went almost 170,000 hard driven miles before I lost it in the rain and totalled it. I've drag raced 1.8Ts and beaten them and kept up with VR6s with that car (yes, it was modified!). I know a group of TDI owners who all have over 100K on their engines and only do regular maintenance on them. These engines, if you change the filters and oil, will outlast the chassis three times over. Sure, there will be cars that fail and forums tend to be places that focus people's attention to these kinds of shortcomings and I have yet to see a trend like this. It is more normal to hear about electrical problems with these cars than mechanical problems. There are occasional turbo failures (at least one resulted in a blown engine) but knowing to not put your foot in it when the revs are below 2000 RPMs will prevent too many failures there.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info, but I will respectfully disagree. you are talking about a group of mechanical people, compromising of a small percentage of the people that own the cars. I have no doubts that they know way more about the cars than some mechanics, as I have been a member of a forum for every car I have owned. That said, VW does not have the greatest track record for their cars, and the diesel pumps are known for failing too often* compared to other vehicles.

I have no doubt they are great performers, and have long been a fan of diesel engines, being brought into the driving world in a Merc diesel. Our friend was simply warning my dad of a semi-regular occurence on a car he was interested in. It was not the only reason my dad got a Merc instead, but definatly played a factor. I am still personally considering a VW diesel, but feel that the fuel pump and cost is a legitimate concern and should be taken into account. That said, maybe I am remembering incorrectly, but I am pretty sure he said "about a third" have the problem. and on another note, as a general rule, people dont keep the car until 100k miles anymore, if they buy new.

Anywho, to the OP good luck in your choice. I am not discouraging your purchase, just letting you know of a possible problem.

Matt


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## tedsti (Oct 22, 2004)

I am a huge diesel fan, but you couldn't pay me to own another VW. My wife had a 2000 jetta (not a TDI) when we met. VWs are notorious for electical problems and especially engine sensors. Her car went through 6 O2 and 4 MAF sensors in the 3 years we were trapped in the lease. This went along with burning 1qt of oil every 1000 miles, the AC compressor going at 27K, brake light module going at 20k. There was literally only about 4 months that we had the car that the check engine light wasn't on.

The other thing that worries me is that they really didn't do anything to address the extra cylinder wear when they went to EGR. I know many TDI folks block off the EGR because of this.

The TDI is the only VW that could even be considered, but the fact that it is a VW is too high of a price to pay.


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## jh_on_the_cape (Jan 12, 2004)

We looked into a TDI for our last car.
Be sure to note that you will pay more for diesel in the USA than for gas. it's about 20% more where we live. So you need to get 20% better fuel economy to break even. The VW with the 4 cylinder engine, or the Vibe or matrix or whatever get pretty close to 80% of the TDI fuel economy.

If you want a good reliable car, get one of the japanese cars. get a used accord or something for cheap.

we have a 97 hyundai accent GT with 100k miles and a VW passat with 30 k miles. we have spent about the same on maintenance on both of the cars!


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

I know I'm getting a little OT here, but I'll put in another vote for a Subaru. Unfortunately, my wife's Forester was totaled in a recent accident. We replaced it with an 06 Outback, base model. We paid just under $21K for the car (cheaper than her Forester) and so far, I love it. Subies have a great track record for reliability and barring another unfortunate accident, we intend to keep it until it croaks. T

The nice thing about the Outback, over say the Outback XT or the Legacy, is that you can run it on regular fuel and her car has been getting 26MPG with city driving (with a ski rack) and about 32MPG on the highway (again, with the ski rack). I suppose the mileage will increase slightly when I pull off that ski mounts next month, but I don't expect more than a 1-2MPG increase. Better yet, I never had to put on the tire chains with the Outback.

I love her Outback as much as I hated her Forester (ergonomics in the Forester kept me out of the drivers seat much of the time.)


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## el_chupo_ (Nov 15, 2005)

jh_on_the_cape said:


> We looked into a TDI for our last car.
> Be sure to note that you will pay more for diesel in the USA than for gas. it's about 20% more where we live. So you need to get 20% better fuel economy to break even. The VW with the 4 cylinder engine, or the Vibe or matrix or whatever get pretty close to 80% of the TDI fuel economy.
> 
> If you want a good reliable car, get one of the japanese cars. get a used accord or something for cheap.
> ...


Fuel cost are location dependant. I just went to gasbuddy.com. I couldnt check MA, but in PA, diesel was about 20cents, not 20% higher. In TX, where I am, Diesel is about 20Cents cheaper.

And again, for quality and performance, its hard to beat Germany. For reilability, quality, and bang for buck, you cant beat Japan.


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## Nagaredama (Aug 2, 2004)

*Subaru...yummy*

Subaru's are fun. Too bad they don't make a diesel for the US or Cali for that matter.


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## dpotter1 (Jul 4, 2005)

What about a Toyota Echo(Yaris). We get 36-42mpg and at 60,000 have done nothing but regular maintance. Not quite as large as some of the cars you are talking about, but plenty of room for biking gear and a weeks worth of luggage.


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

Yeah, and with a Toyota Echo you won't get your car stolen. Those things are so damn ugly.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

*I may order one tomorrow....*

Outback XT Limited but basically the same. Yeah, nice wagon. I've got the price thanks to IMBA but have to settle on the trade-in value of the '99 Passat we are getting rid of.

PS: You may have three bikes in that thing but it certainly looks, well, fully loaded. Where do you put the third rider?


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## stib (Dec 29, 2003)

Rev Bubba said:


> Outback XT Limited but basically the same. Yeah, nice wagon. I've got the price thanks to IMBA but have to settle on the trade-in value of the '99 Passat we are getting rid of.
> 
> PS: You may have three bikes in that thing but it certainly looks, well, fully loaded. Where do you put the third rider?


Ha ha.. the wagon does look pretty packed though, doesn't it?  Actually, because the seats are 60/40 folding, there was just enough space for the third guy. 

Anyways, I love my LGT - and it's a 5-spd manual to boot! I think you'll love your Outback XT too.


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## col200 (Apr 20, 2004)

I just bought a '03 Mazda Protege5. It's a great car. I did alot of research before buying it and am very pleased with my purchase. The suburu was my other choice but because of cost reasons, I went with an older car. I would check out consumer reports though. It's very helpful. Honda, Suburu and Mazda seem to be the best buys. The Protege5 has almost a perfect score. I found the P5 to have the most backseat/trunk space of all of the similar wagons I looked at. When the seats are folded, you can fit a couple bike back there, so sweat. Mine came with a rack so I just attached my Yakima sleds on there. I may be biased  but the P5 is a sweet deal. I got a loaded '03 with 50k for $11,900.(Manual)


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## mslote (Apr 25, 2006)

*I feel ya'*

I know what you were saying about your dad not being a fan of the WV's you're considering. I drive a subaru which I love (and also would very highly recommend) but she's 14 years old and when she dies I a would also like a WV TDI. My dad isn't so hot about the idea. He and I both know that they have horrible reliability ratings (according to comsumer reports...and reputation) I am of the opinion that TDI's aren't really the same...and should do better. We have agreed to search for the truth though. In the meantime I can tell you what little I know about the other cars you are considering.

Matrix/vibe : I drove a chevy prizm, a twin of the corolla, which is the basis of the matrix (which is a twin to the vibe) last year before I got my subaru (to take off to school). It was a great car and the milage was a big plus. You'd be looking at a newer generation tham what I drive (2001) so take that into consieration. But, what I remember is that it was a little lacking in power, unless I really pushed it. It also fely a little tinny, but thats expected from an economy car.

Honda: I don't know anything about a Fit...which is wierd. Accords are good cars though. Definitely reliable and decent mileage. I have heard that the construction is a little odd though and that you need to expect to pay a little more for repairs. The element is a funky rig. I know a few people who have them and they like what they have. Also a little short on power too...at least for the 4 cyl. I don't know of there's a v6 version. If you're travelling in mountains or snow you might want to look into an AWD model.

Mazda: I don't know enough to say much...but they seem reliable...and look really good.

hope that helps


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## Mynamesrob (Jul 25, 2004)

Just think, if you go diesel, you can go biodiesel and kill two birds with one stone. Cheaper fuel plus help the environment. I would go TDI if I could do it over.


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## garboui (Jul 16, 2004)

well bio deisel is one of the things that really intrests me about going with a tdi. this is mainly because im taking a prosses automation course in uni right now so i was planning on building an automated semi self contained biodeisel machine for my final project.


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## PCC (Sep 5, 2005)

If you plan on going bio-diesel make sure you get an older model with the injection pump as the newer ones with the Pumpe Duse system does not run right with anything more than B5 (5% bio mix). With the old-style injection pump you can run B100 (100%) without any issues.


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## garboui (Jul 16, 2004)

PCC said:


> If you plan on going bio-diesel make sure you get an older model with the injection pump as the newer ones with the Pumpe Duse system does not run right with anything more than B5 (5% bio mix). With the old-style injection pump you can run B100 (100%) without any issues.


well i was planning on staying new'ish like 2002 and newer. would it be possible to retrofit the older style pump in or run a secondary pump that would bypass the original when i am running pure bio?


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## kingkahuna (May 25, 2004)

02 will be fine with bio-d. 
the oil changes you can do yourself, using the proper oil..I use mobil truck and SUV synthetic.
There is a LOT of info @ www.tdiclub.com. More than I could ever type.

Look for a car with a good service history, and if you get a 5 speed TDI with manual windows and no sunroof, it's pretty much a bulletproof mk4 VW.
I've had 2 TDI's, and I'm doing a TDI swap into my wagon this summer. VW's do have problems, but getting a good car can eliminate most of them.
A chip or uprated injector nozzles will give you plenty of pep w/o killing your mileage.


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## Singletrack Pig (Jan 13, 2004)

*Kick it old school...*

I did an extensive search last year for a car I could run biodiesel form the local co-op in, and settled on a 1987 Mercedes Benz. I paid around $3,000 for it and have been very happy with the reliability, performance and the style. Older than you may be looking for, but the MB diesel engines go on forever and love the biodiesel.


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## mattsteve (Dec 28, 2004)

I love mine.......

Worse mileage was 42, best was 51.

Lifted 1.5 inches.

Running on biodiesel.

Get the TDI if you are a do it yoruselfer who likes cars.


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## tedsti (Oct 22, 2004)

Actually, the biodiesel will have higher NOx emissions. The physical properties of the boidiesel change the injection timing. If you can get a ECU calibration for biodiesel, then the emissions will go down. Some of the HD truck engines offer ECU flashes for bio.



Mynamesrob said:


> Just think, if you go diesel, you can go biodiesel and kill two birds with one stone. Cheaper fuel plus help the environment. I would go TDI if I could do it over.


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## mattsteve (Dec 28, 2004)

NOx may not be as bad as the folks at CARB and the EPA would have us believe. Lots of debate on that within the biodiesel sites.

But in order to recude NOx emissions, one needs to advance the injection timing, right?


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## tedsti (Oct 22, 2004)

I think that you advance the timing to reduce NOx when running bioD, but I can't remember for sure.

EPA does not have a good history when it comes to diesel. The big 3 killed their light duty diesel programs targeted for SUVs since the EPA could not make up its mind on what the emissions regs were going to be. It was too big of a risk for the big 3 to shoot at a moving target.

EPA is also adding a NO2/NOx ratio that is really screwing with catalyst formulations and holding things up.


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## PCC (Sep 5, 2005)

garboui said:


> well i was planning on staying new'ish like 2002 and newer. would it be possible to retrofit the older style pump in or run a secondary pump that would bypass the original when i am running pure bio?


I think '03 was the last year of the injection pump TDI.

My '06 Jetta GLI has been returning about 30MPG on my daily commute, about 60 miles round trip, almost all highway miles. My TDI was getting 40MPG on the same commute and I was driving it a lot more aggressively than I am now with my new car (I'm still breaking the engine in). Driven just as aggressively, my new car would get about 20-25 MPG.


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