# Custom Bike Build Experience, Guide, and Help Solicitation



## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Hey guys. I got this idea from computer building forums - I've decided to documentmy custom building experience here, if no one minds. I'm not doing this so people can gawk at whatever I end up building but rather so a) people can learn from the experience who want to do the same, and b) I can solicit some input from the community. Hope you all enjoy and I hope the end product is something worthwhile. Thanks!

-Chris


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## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

There's a sticky where this was done in the "Tooltime" forum. Bikerbob did this in 2007. Although, all the once embedded photos are now click-links. 

He did a great job with it. Big shoes to fill with this....good luck!


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Awesome, thank you! I'll check that out. 

Yes, this is a bit ambitious. It'll probably be similar just with the new formats. Hopefully it'll be fun either way. Whoever wants to follow, enjoy. If not, no biggie!


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Intro - Part 1

Attempting to build a custom bike from the ground up is a very involved task. When I first began the process of planning, I had no idea how many factors, details, and specifics I would have to account for. I'm only a few weeks into this researching process, however, and I'm starting to take in most of these items, although for many of the options, I still don’t fully understand their impact and role. That will become apparent as I work through this.

The reason I wanted to document this experience is because I realized that so many of the guides for building a custom mountain bike are just terribly insufficient. There are various reasons for this including assumptions of what people will choose and how limited they will keep their selection, how rapidly things have changed over the past few years since these guides were written, and that they were written either by inexperienced builders or builders who really didn’t accurately account for the actual thought process and required considerations that must be met when building a bike. This became clear to me almost immediately, and every item I look at, something new popups up to confirm this.

As a teenager I always wanted to build a car, although the sheer complexity of it so quickly deterred me that it was never a realistic desire. A bike, on the other hand, is significantly less involved, however it shares many similar considerations due to them both being types of vehicles and both being subjected to the same laws of physics. This guide-to-be won't be complicated - I am not a engineer so don't expect detailed discussions of how certain frame geometries or wheel layouts impact different aspects of your ride, but feel free to provide your knowledge and input about that as it relates to this build and in even in general.

I haven't ridden seriously in almost twenty years, so as ambitious as this is, it will inevitably fall short in many regards. My decision to make this a forum post, however, allows for the input of the community, and in fact, I am soliciting that. There is much I do not know about mountain bikes and biking, but I love both and really want to get back into it. It is the closest thing I can imagine that brings back the phenomenon of discovery as a child where everything is new, novel, and mind-tingling. Travelling through woods you have never been before and witnessing the Earth in all its beauty is simply a breath-taking experience. This is my reason for wanting to get back to biking. And although I am confident that I have the coordination, biking skills, and ease at which I could become extremely conditioned, I really don't have much of a desire to compete. And thus, I'm not looking to become a professional, rather I am looking to have fun. 

What follows will be that - my attempt at having fun designing and building a bike that will be fun to ride. Most people argue that buying a bike is the cheaper route to go. And although this is true in some ways, it is incorrect in others. Let me explain. As for being correct, the assumption here is that buying parts individually will be more costly than buying them together from a bike manufacturer because the manufacturer receives deep discounts on parts by buying in bulk. All things equal, this makes sense, and although I pride myself on getting rock bottom deals, I really wont challenge that assumption. I'd imagine if you really put in a lot of effort, you'll land somewhere within a 10% price difference, in one direction or another - nothing significant enough to break the bank. But not everything is equal. Enter the Chiner.


Frame Material - Part 2

I've decided I want to build a bike off a carbon fiber frame, and the reality with this is that carbon fiber frames directly from China or so significantly cheaper than those coming from manufacturers in the US that it throws the whole equation out of whack. Again, I don't have a ton of experience doing this, but I can't imagine finding a carbon fiber framed mountain bike cheaper than building one where you import the frame yourself, all other things equal. Perhaps someone can challenge this assumption. I understand why some people are against using Chinese frames directly from the warehouse, but I am not, and I will proceed that way.

As for the notion that building a custom bike is cheaper than buying a prefabbed one, that can also be incorrect, despite what I've mentioned above regarding the cost savings of going with a Chiner frame. The reality is, at least for me, this is much more expensive. The main reason is because I'm not going to cut corners. I'm going to want to buy quality components down to the individual spokes, tires and bolts. Bike companies find ways to cut corners in order to cut costs. I don’t intend on doing that so I expect this to be a build likely much more expensive than I want to spend, but we'll see how that works out. Moreover, this is extremely time consuming, and this is a major concern for me. Do I really want to invest in learning how to design and put together a bike? I've decided I do, although we'll see if I regret that by the end. One reason is I have trouble paying someone $80 to "tune up" my bike when I know I could learn to do the same things myself. There are enough YouTube videos out there to help you perform open heart surgery (although I surely wouldn't want a surgeon who learned simply from YouTube). I'm quite confident there are a sufficient amount to teach you how to tune up a mountain bike. Is it the same as learning in person? Surely no, but I'm working on a bike, not a human. I might mess it up and maybe I'll break things, but such is life. It'll only help me learn. And that's the other reason I want to do this - I simply want to learn how a bike works, what everything does, and why certain things do things differently than other things.

So in the end, I'm hoping this will be fun and worthwhile and I ask and encourage the community to provide me with feedback as I go through this experience. My desire is that in the end, what will remain is a guide that anyone can follow to build a custom bike, regardless of why they want to. I'm very wordy, so at some point I will attempt to summarize everything in a flow chart or outline so it will be more useful in the future.


Let's begin!


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Bike Type - Part 3

I'm going to move fast here in the beginning because I've already settled on some of these initial decisions.

The first decision that is usually made when deciding on a bike is whether or not you want a full suspension bike or a hard tail. If you want to go Fat Bike or some specialty route, than this might not be the first question you ask, but for me, it was. I really wanted to try out a full-suspension bike. I've never even ridden one. Last time I bought a mountain bike Trek had just come out with their Y-bikes, a carbon fiber, full suspension Y shaped bike, starting at about 1k and going up to about 3k, if I remember correctly. The models were a Y 11, 22, and 33, I believe. I ended up with an 830 for somewhere close to $400. Over twenty years later, it's still kicking. My mom now rides it regularly on the road. She just replaced the knobby Big Kahuna tires for something more road friendly about a year or two ago. Over twenty years. Granted it doesn't have 50,000 miles on it, but still, I find that impressive. I hope this bike will last me half as long.

So as much as I wanted to go full suspension, the cost and the complete impracticality forced me to decline. I live in the Chicago area. Honestly I can get by with a crossover bike, and probably would be better suited with that, or even just a road bike&#8230;but really, I hate riding roads, and paved trails are only so fun. This bike will probably end up spending more time on pavement than dirt, but that doesn't bother me. I love mountain bikes, and I do plan on taking this out on the trails, even if it's overkill for what I'll be doing, even if I won't get my money's worth in the foreseeable future.

So the first decision has been made - hard tail. Next decision, wheel size. WTH&#8230;.

I knew 29ers were out, and I wanted to try one, so I did, at some local shop. Boy do they feel weird. The frame was a little big for me, and 18" which was my normal 26" size that had previously felt perfect, but I felt like I was in the bike and not on the bike. I got used to it after a bit though and it felt almost normal, as many people mention will happen with 29ers. So much of what I have read has compelled me to go 29", plus I want to do build something that rides differently than my old Trek 830 did, significantly if possible. Riding through trails probably won't provide me with the same magical experience that it did when I was 13 so I'm going to need something else that is novel. 29" will do.

But what is this, 27.5"?! Best of both worlds? Not too strange or uncomfortable, but still kick butt? After a lot of reading and watching videos, I decided against it. I'm going to go all out. 29er it is.

29+ ?! Huh? What the heck is this now? I'm sure most of you all experienced that too when you read about this new breed of bikes - mid fats, plus sizes, half-fatties, or whatever you want to call them. Is this the same things as the 27.5" idea - best of both worlds, between a regular mountain bike and a fat bike (have you, I began learning about fat bikes through researching this new bike size, although I first spotted these weird creatures during the X-Games a few years ago, but I digress&#8230 which ends up also being the worst of both? I won't say it's not, but I got a totally different feeling from this than from the 27.5's. And while fat bikes looked fun from all I read and watched, they ultimately seemed like biking around with floaties as wheels with a couple of dumbbells attached, or so I gather from reading and watching. Sluggish to get moving and not very nimble, they didn't attract me, but the 29+, this looks cool. It seems like they're getting rave reviews, and that these might actually be true competitors in some fields of biking, and even if not, they're still going to be blast to ride. They already are.

I bought into some of the marketing hype surrounding the new Trek Stache's running 29+ wheels. They talked about how other 29+ bikes were sluggish like early 29ers (or maybe even fatties) and how current frame geometry made these 29+ bikes perform underwhelming in addition to interesting challenges that I would have not imagined unless I was putting a bike together already and realized, oh crap, this doesn't fit. The take home here was Trek *seemed* to have hit the nail on the head, at least according to the reviews. The wheels spin very similar to regular 29" wheels because they have reduced the tread on the tires (surely that has a consequence, but I'll deal with it, at least until I'm 10 miles deep into the woods with a blow out that I can't repair&#8230, but they have more traction. Every review I read of people who rode the Stache loved it. They hated the idea going in, but really enjoyed the ride coming out. Man, if only I could afford one of them, or just the frame, or better yet get a Chiner frame like that&#8230;oh snap, you've got to be kidding me: WCB-M-078 27.5+/ 29 /29+-workswellbikes. That's the same frame, in carbon fiber! Over the past couple of weeks this page has been updated multiple times. At this point, it shows all the options very clearly.

With that, this is now what I need to consider, which size and which bottom bracket to go with.

As far as sizes go, 17.5" is the clear winner for me at 5'8". 18" was perfect for a 26" and many recommend going down a little bit in size for a 29". The one I rode, a Specialized did feel a tad bit big at 18". I know I should really ride one before making a decision, but I'm pretty confident this is the size I need. I'm going to try to get to a shop the sells the new Trek Stache and check out one, but most shops in the Chicago area focus on road bikes, but we'll see. In the absence of that, 17.5" is going to be my choice.

Next is the bottom bracket where the crank attaches. This frame has four options: BB92 (92MM), BB30 (73MM), PF30 (73MM), or BSA (73MM)

I've yet to research these different sizes and formats, so if anyone has some input feel free to provide it. From what I gather though some are threaded and some are not. Non-threaded is a newer to the mountain biking scene and *might* become standard and I would prefer for this bike to be more future resistant to changes (as nothing is future proof), but I've seen mention of cracking bottom brackets on carbon frames because of over tightening on non-threaded designs. I need to research bottom brackets and how they interact with cranks in terms of standards and compatibility. Additionally, I need to work from the other direction and see what formats and sizing the drivetrain I want will come in. I'm looking at a SRAM GX 1x11 drivetrain. I'm limited to a 1 ring crankset on this frame, which I'm fine with. SRAM seems like the way to go for those right now and the GX looks like it is in my price range and has gotten pretty strong reviews, from what I've seen. Personally I'm not worried about a pound or two. I need a reason to cut that weight from my stomach anyway. Both of the available GX cranksets use BB30 from what I gather. So with that said, I'm probably looking at the BB30 version of this frame. Feel free to provide input.

Done. So there it is. This is frame to go with. It's $510 on Ebay, $484.50 on sale at this time of this posting.. I have $500 in Ebay gift cards that I paid $425 for. Pretty awesome. So there it is folks - a Stache frame in carbon fiber. 29+, 17.5", BB30 (I think). Bring it on. This is exciting&#8230;

Full Carbon 27 5 29 29er thru Axle MTB Frame 27 5ER Plus 29er Plus MTB Frame | eBay

I haven't pulled the trigger on anything yet, and while I'm a bit anxious, I'm realizing that a decision at one point in the design process can cascade across the rest of the bike. I found that out when I wanted to add a Julie Rock Shox fork to a Trek 830 about 20 years ago and they weren't compatible. Now I see that compatibility is the name of the game when building a bike. It's insane the amount of options and formats you have to take into consideration. And so the journey has begun&#8230;


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## 2tofly (Nov 6, 2011)

Subscribed.... Looking for a winter project....


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Needs more pics. Fewer words. I have a headache (not from reading this post, though), and am not interested in reading a bunch.


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## Rogueldr (Jul 30, 2007)

Harold said:


> Needs more pics. Fewer words. I have a headache (not from reading this post, though), and am not interested in reading a bunch.


+1 Here Here. Pics dude!


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Good call. Thanks for stopping by. Sorry so wordy.

So I found what seems to be a sick deal with much of what I was looking for: Carbon fiber, 29+, raised chainstay, SRAM X1 groupset. Check it out:

2016 CARBON 29+ BIKE
2016 carbon 29+ bike - Shenzhen ICAN Sports Equipment Co., Ltd.

and
29+ FRAME 2016 MOUNTAIN BIKE
29+ frame 2016 mountain bike - Shenzhen ICAN Sports Equipment Co., Ltd.

I got quoted $480 for the frame, $120 for the fork (which I would probably pass on), and $2190 for the whole bike (see the site details for parts; I would have to google some of these and maybe consider swapping some pieces, but it includes carbon ribs among other pieces).

See attached pics. I'd probably scrap the logos if possible also. Seems to beat the ebay prices of the other one I was looking at. Also, looks like this frame design is starting to get around the Chinese factories, although I'm a little worried about spending $2k for something from a company I've never heard of half way around the world. Finally, I was hoping for BB30 over PF30. I read a bit about them, and it sounded like PF was to give more room for error for frame manufacturers (double-edged sword there), and subsequently lead to a lot of creaking while peddling for people. Thoughts?

Thanks guys!


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

For comparison, this is the other frame I was looking at (see ebay url at the bottom of my second post). It's also available here:
WCB-M-078 27.5+/ 29 /29+-workswellbikes

$510 now, $485 when on sale, which might not happen again for a bit.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Interestingly with the elevated chainstays on those bikes, they are both belt drive compatible though to tension the system, it looks like an eccentric hub would be your only option.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Yes, that is true. I haven't been following biking for a while, but did notice those to hit the market a few years ago.....seems like they really haven't caught on though, and certainly didn't dethrone regular gear and chain setups.

On another note, the fully elevated change stay worries me a little bit (versus the Trek/workswell setup that has just one bar of the rear triangle raised). Does anyone think this could compromise the strength? It just seems to be that having at least one of those bars being connected to the bottom where the crank is would be a bit stronger, but perhaps my concerns are unwarranted.

On a final note, I'm going to break down the price of the full bike from ICAN Sports. The price seems a bit too good. The same bike is for sale on Ebay for a $1100 more:
29 Carbon Mountain Bike 17 inch SRAM x1 Groupset 50mm Wide Wheelset | eBay


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Ok, so I guess the price is legit (see attached pic). I know some of the pieces aren't top of the line, but still, not bad for $2190. At this point I think I'd rather them assemble it than me go through the process of buying everything individually and assembling it (sounds like the project might be getting scrapped...).

I've asked if they can safely ship the bike without the fork so I can put on my own suspension fork (the Manitou Magnum 34 Pro might be the only officially 29+ compatible one to go with right now, but that can be decided later). Shipping will probably run somewhere around $300, minus the $120 for removing the fork, plus $820 for the Manitou it puts the whole shabang at about $3200. Dang how'd that go from 2k to 3k :| ....

Thoughts?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

There's nothing wrong with elevated chainstays in theory. They look a little funny, but they actually address a couple of issues on many bikes. With clutch derailleurs, chain slap isn't much of a problem anymore, but back in the days pre-clutch, there were a number of manufacturers playing with elevated chainstays. Some of those old frames have been given new life with belt drive systems.

I think the biggest thing holding belt drive systems back is that it limits you to either a singlespeed, or some sort of internal gearing (either an internal gear hub or a gearbox), and there is some efficiency loss with those internal systems. You also need a way to simply tension the belt. Eccentric bottom bracket shells and sliding/swinging dropouts are the most common.

Regarding the build, if it was me, I'd sacrifice drivetrain bits for better brakes. I'd bump down to a 10spd drivetrain and get some SRAM Guide or Shimano SLX brakes.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Thanks for the feedback btw. After some thinking about all of it and looking at the frames again, I prefer the workswell one over the ican due to the different dropout positions for the rear wheel. I wasn't too thrilled with the hubs either on the wheels that ican was providing, so in retrospect, maybe I will go back to building this. Really it's just the wheels that worry me as the rest seems straight forward enough and less of an art.

I've been looking at Lefty forks lately due in part to the lack of 29+ compatible options. I'd like to go with the Supermax but it's uber expensive. I found what looks like a good deal on Ebay for one, but the guy doesn't know the year or any history of the fork so it scares me a bit:

Cannondale Lefty Super Max Carbon Supermax 29er Fork | eBay

It has a 4.5" space between the clamps, or about 114mm. The 18.5" ican frame says 115mm for the head tube. I assume these numbers are fairly standard and this has to be the right one, correct?

The main decisions I need to make first are a) frame, b) rims (and wheels), and c) suspension. I'm thinking about offset rims but I'm not sure how that'll match up with the Lefty, hence I want to decide on the suspension before the wheels (plus it obviously affects the front hub).

Thanks for everyone's help!


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

I haven't updated this in a week so figured I would, even if anyone isn't reading. Ebay had a targeted 5x Ebay Bucks promo going on this weekend (that's 10% cash back), so I took advantage and basically went a little bonkers. I wish I had been more prepared, but so be it. Here's what I ordered so far:

Workswell 29+, 17", BB30
Speedcarbon 29er 50mmx25mm, 32H, offset, hookless, beadless, tubeless (2x)
Cannondale Lefty Supermax 29er, 130mm, 4.5"
SRAM XX1 Carbon Type 2.1
SRAM XX1 Trigger Shifter
SRAM XX1 XG-1199 10-42 Cassette 11 Speed
SRAM XX1 PC-XX1 Chain 11 Speed
AVID Guide RSC 4-Piston Disc Brake with Rotors (180/160)

I took the advice on the brakes, but when a bit overtop with some of the components. I got a good deal on the XX1's and just pulled the trigger. I'm at about $1550 right now, with $180 in ebay bucks, and $17.25 AMX cashback (bought some ebay giftcards from a supermarket).

This is what I have left and what I'm thinking:

Tires: MAXXIS CHRONICLE 29X3.00 EXO TR FOLDING MTB TYRE - about $56 out of Australia, not sure how they're so much cheaper: Maxxis Chronicle 29x3 00 Exo TR Folding MTB Tyre | eBay

Front Hub: Either a Cannondale or DT Swiss Hub for the Lefty (need to research more; concerns over Boost 110/3.0" Tire compatibility?)
Rear Hub: DT Swiss Boost 148
Spokes: no clue yet
Nipples: something brass (per some forums due to issues with alum nipples + carbon rims)

Crank/Chainring/Bottom Bracket: I wanted to just round out the set and go XX1, but maybe it really isn't the best option. I'd like to find a 2015 version in BB30 at a good price so I don't need adapters. I'm not sure if the Q Factor will be an issue on this frame. I live in Illinois so I'm sure 32T is fine for climbing, but in case I move at some point over the next year or two, maybe 30T would be worth it. I'm not sure how much on the top end I'd be giving up and how that translates into real world speed.

Handlebars: was thinking riser, carbon, from my frame manuf (Workswell). They only go up to 700mm with a 6% rise angle? Not entirely sure how they're measuring things. I'm 5'7 and feel like 700mm should be plenty as I'm not exactly throwing this hardtail down mountains. 680mm might even work.
Stem: was thinking the same as above, carbon from Workswell. I know there is a strong argument for going aluminum so I need to research this a bit more. I've seen an Enve carbon get a great review and I'm wondering if one of these Chinese copies is the same. I'm not sure about the length yet due to a) the handlebar length, and b) the frame size being on the small end of what fits me. I'm likely going to order on the cheap from China so if it doesn't feel right, I'll resell and get something else.
Seatpost: was thinking the same as above, carbon from Workswell. I don't need a drop post nor want to spend the money on one now. I'm not sure if I need a larger offset than what they offer due again to the frame running toward the smaller end of what fits me.
Saddle: I can't imagine using a carbon saddle; my butt is going to be sitting on this. How bout leather?
Pedals: flat, but not sure what yet
Grips: not sure yet. Saw some rubber SRAM ones that look decent

Misc: BB adapter/converter (if needed), spacers for stem (if needed), adapter for the Lefty, tape/sealant for the tires, frame guard/helicopter tape, chainstay guard, light (winter days can be short in Chicago). Am I missing anything?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Part 1 showed up today, the Supermax 29-130. Looks in good shape, but who knows what's going on inside. There is a rubber ring floating around, a little wear on one of the clamps, a few light surface scratches, and on the bottom it says 180mm (instead of 130?), but otherwise it looks fine. I'll probably send it away to be serviced later this week.














































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## thx138 (Aug 5, 2013)

josephjosephson said:


> Part 1 showed up today, the Supermax 29-130. Looks in good shape, but who knows what's going on inside. There is a rubber ring floating around, a little wear on one of the clamps, a few light surface scratches, and on the bottom it says 180mm (instead of 130?), but otherwise it looks fine. I'll probably send it away to be serviced later this week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That 180mm is for rotor size.

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

ah ok, true, ty. and I think the rubber ring is probably for setting the sag (never done it before)

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Grips. Stuff starting to come in slowly









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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

sealant









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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Components and tires came in. still need to pick out a crank and BB. also decided to go with project 321 hubs (supermax front, 148x12 rear). they have a boost 148 rear hub coming out in about a week built off of an industry 9 hub. I'm also ordering the tapered supermax adapter from them. there is some concern that the frame headtube + the adapter may be too big for the supermax clamps, but we'll see (it will be close)

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

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## scrapmetal57 (Sep 18, 2012)

Basically what I'm planning on doing. Subbed!


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

btw, for anybody in need of 29+ 3.0" tires, these are the top end tc120 version of the maxxis tires that usually got for $120+ a piece. some store on ebay in Australia has them for like $30! and they showed up in under a week....I don't even want to know lol...

on a down note, my frame isn't done so it's not shipping until after the Chinese new year week off of wor, so I'm still well over a month out on this. the upside is the wheels are on the way so I'll have a lot of time to build then (or go somewhere to get them built if I can't do it). in any event, I'll update this thread as I figure stuff out and start assembling. in the end, I'll write up something that will hopefully serve as a guide to building a custom bike (the shear amount of compatibility concerns is insane). anyways, thanks for coming by!

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## Unit91MS (Sep 10, 2015)

scrapmetal57 said:


> Basically what I'm planning on doing. Subbed!


ditto 



josephjosephson said:


> btw, for anybody in need of 29+ 3.0" tires, these are the top end tc120 version of the maxxis tires that usually got for $120+ a piece. some store on ebay in Australia has them for like $30! and they showed up in under a week....I don't even want to know lol...
> 
> on a down note, my frame isn't done so it's not shipping until after the Chinese new year week off of wor, so I'm still well over a month out on this. the upside is the wheels are on the way so I'll have a lot of time to build then (or go somewhere to get them built if I can't do it). in any event, I'll update this thread as I figure stuff out and start assembling. in the end, I'll write up something that will hopefully serve as a guide to building a custom bike (the shear amount of compatibility concerns is insane). anyways, thanks for coming by!
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


I'm torn between the ican and the workswell frames. They both have aspects I like and dislike!


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Unit91MS said:


> ditto
> 
> I'm torn between the ican and the workswell frames. They both have aspects I like and dislike!


Ya i went back in forth. in the end I went workswell because 1) has 2 different chain stay lengths, 2) i imagined the ican snapping at where the rear triangle connects at the bottom of the frame (probably silly concern but the one chain stay connecting to the BB made me feel safer, and 3) workswell was selling the frame on ebay for like $484 (I asked them to lower the price back to 484 on a day thay ebay was offering 5x bucks, which is 10% back), and I got a bunch of $100 ebay cards for $85 from target a month back). in the end it cost me like $400 vs ican wanted $530 I think.....and then finally 4) I decided I'd play off the asymmetrical look by going a) asym/offset rims and b) Lefty suspension up front.

So far workswell's communcation has been great, but they're not too speedy, and of course I have no idea the quality of their stuff. they did post a few youtube videos of them stress testing their frames though so that made me feel better. also of note, ican has a built up 29+ for like $2300 ican think (on ebay for $3000+ for some reason) which may be a legit option for many. I have an email quote if anyone wants to see it.

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## scrapmetal57 (Sep 18, 2012)

Another good resource I've found is Lamere Cycles. They seem to just buy ICAN frames then build them up. Though I think they own the mold of their fatbike frame.
Basically a professional version of what we are doing.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

I forgot to add: 5) ican only came in PF30, workswell had multiple options including BB30 which I went with. I'm following a Stache thread where everyone is complaining about creaking PF BB'S - no thanks

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## scrapmetal57 (Sep 18, 2012)

Another resource you might want to check out is  Lamere Cycles . 
From what I have seen they get ICAN frame, put their sticker on them and build them just like we plan to. Same idea, just pros doing it.
I think they made a b+ Lefty.


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## scrapmetal57 (Sep 18, 2012)

josephjosephson said:


> I forgot to add: 5) ican only came in PF30, workswell had multiple options including BB30 which I went with. I'm following a Stache thread where everyone is complaining about creaking PF BB'S - no thanks
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Check out Praxis Cycles , they have a bb that convertsPF30/BB30 to BSA external bearings.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

yep. someone recommended that, so if you favor the ican, that's probably the way to go. I wanted to avoid using adapters, conversions etc if possible though if I could. it all just added together for the workswell. it was only the asymmetry thay made me think twice, but in the end I just adopted it

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## Unit91MS (Sep 10, 2015)

It's really the small seat tube diameter and the 2 permanent Axle holes scaring me away from the workswell. I much prefer the singular elevated chain stay and availability of a threaded bsa bb though.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

scrapmetal57 said:


> Another resource you might want to check out is  Lamere Cycles .
> From what I have seen they get ICAN frame, put their sticker on them and build them just like we plan to. Same idea, just pros doing it.
> I think they made a b+ Lefty.


Pretty dope, but way too expensive for me. $1800 for a fat carbon frame that can be ordered for probably $600. personally I want to learn how to build a bike, and I hate paying for something that I can do myself , but for many this might be the way to go.

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## Unit91MS (Sep 10, 2015)

josephjosephson said:


> Pretty dope, but way too expensive for me. $1800 for a fat carbon frame that can be ordered for probably $600. personally I want to learn how to build a bike, and I hate paying for something that I can do myself , but for many this might be the way to go.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


They also appear to have a very good warranty though. If that's worth the extra money to you, then it's probably worth it


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## scrapmetal57 (Sep 18, 2012)

josephjosephson said:


> Pretty dope, but way too expensive for me. $1800 for a fat carbon frame that can be ordered for probably $600. personally I want to learn how to build a bike, and I hate paying for something that I can do myself , but for many this might be the way to go.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


I was just using them as a resource.
 Here is a build sheet for one of their fat bikes.
Their youtube channel is pretty good too. They have a lot of confidence in the chinese carbon bikes.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Unit91MS said:


> It's really the small seat tube diameter and the 2 permanent Axle holes scaring me away from the workswell. I much prefer the singular elevated chain stay and availability of a threaded bsa bb though.


interesting. I didn't notice the former and didn't consider the latter. well, if mine snaps before you buy yours I'll let you know! lol

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Unit91MS said:


> They also appear to have a very good warranty though. If that's worth the extra money to you, then it's probably worth it


Yes that is true. I'm always the guy that never buys the extended warranty though lol. I figure I can buy 5 before it'll be worth it. I'm not sure if it's necessarily any safer either, they're just willing to replace it beyond 2 years, while their manufacturer wont

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## Unit91MS (Sep 10, 2015)

josephjosephson said:


> interesting. I didn't notice the former and didn't consider the latter. well, if mine snaps before you buy yours I'll let you know! lol
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Did thwy give you an estimated delivery date? I really wish they just made two sets of dropouts instead of leaving both holes there so close together. I'm also a big guy so the skinny seat post concerns me. Probably not a big deal for most!



josephjosephson said:


> Yes that is true. I'm always the guy that never buys the extended warranty though lol. I figure I can buy 5 before it'll be worth it. I'm not sure if it's necessarily any safer either, they're just willing to replace it beyond 2 years, while their manufacturer wont
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


It's mostly a convenience and piece of mind thing. It is quite a steep premium for it though!


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

No delivery estimate, sorry. I didn't get that far. $480 was the quote for the frame actually, $120 for a hard fork, $2190 for the whole bike (unless that was a typo)

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## Unit91MS (Sep 10, 2015)

josephjosephson said:


> interesting. I didn't notice the former and didn't consider the latter. well, if mine snaps before you buy yours I'll let you know! lol
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk





josephjosephson said:


> No delivery estimate, sorry. I didn't get that far. $480 was the quote for the frame actually, $120 for a hard fork, $2190 for the whole bike (unless that was a typo)
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


You mentioned it wasn't shipping until after Chinese new year? So these aren't available until early 2016?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Unit91MS said:


> You mentioned it wasn't shipping until after Chinese new year? So these aren't available until early 2016?


yea, maybe the guy didn't translate properly. I just looked it up. October 1st starts a 1 week national holiday called "(National Day) Golden Week." They'll be back to work on approximately October 9th.

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## Unit91MS (Sep 10, 2015)

josephjosephson said:


> yea, maybe the guy didn't translate properly. I just looked it up. October 1st starts a 1 week national holiday called "(National Day) Golden Week." They'll be back to work on approximately October 9th.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Sorry for all the questions, is yours coming with the axles?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

yes, it comes with one 148x12 rear through axel. put it in either hole, the longer one for 29+, the shorter for 27+ and under (if you so desire the shorter chainstay)

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Today's arrival

29+ 50mm x 25mm hookless/beadless, tubeless carbon fiber rims:




































Pedals:









Seat:









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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Workswell's shipment came today

Frame:

















































































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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Cont.

Headset (comes with frame):









Handlebars:









Stem:









Seat post:









Water bottle cages:









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## Unit91MS (Sep 10, 2015)

Looks nice! I'm waiting on a reply from them. Said they'd be back in the office tomorrow!


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Awesome. Gl! It's been a good experience so far for me. I did an unboxing video of this and the rims. I'll try posting it

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## Unit91MS (Sep 10, 2015)

Does it seem like there is any metal in the dropout area or is it entirely carbon?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Unit91MS said:


> Does it seem like there is any metal in the dropout area or is it entirely carbon?


The hangars themselves are metal, along with the axel and that thing on the opposite side of the hangar (lol honestly I don't even know what it's for, something for the brakes I assume?)





































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## Unit91MS (Sep 10, 2015)

Yeah the one piece is for the caliper mount. Where the axle goes through on the non derailleur side is also metal?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

I'm starting to purchase some final (but still major) parts as I wait for the hubs from project 321. I ordered an xx1 crank from planet cyclery for $214.95 (beat a lot of other places by over $100). I wanted to go BB30 instead of GXP so I didn't have to use adapters, which made it difficult to find at a good price. Most SRAM cranks are GXP, particularly the XX1 offerings, especially on ebay. This is getting complicated enough, so I'm trying to avoid incompatibility issues. That drove me away from the Next SL1s, along with the price as I'm already way over budget and couldn't justify $400 for the crankset and another $50 or so for an adapter, as great as the reviews are.

I have a moderately wide stance for my 5'7"ish height and opted for the 168(mm) Q factor over the 156. I sat with my feet on my pedals in the most natural pedaling position and 6.6" was closer than 6.1" for me. The real kicker was when I played horsie with the frame and realized that I needed the extra clearance to avoid calf strikes on the rear triangle. I saw this in one of many new Stache reviews but figured, like many of the readers, that the reviewer didn't know what he was doing. It's something with the geometry of the rear triangle needing to be wider for the plus wheels and 148 rear hub plus the fact that the bottom bracket is literally behind the front edge of the rear wheel that puts your legs over thay rear triangle in a way that isn't normal on other bikes. Add to this that I ordered a 17" frame instead of an 18.5", and it may have exacerbated the issue. Hopefully the wider Q factor will solve the problem, but if not, I'll grab some pedal extenders to go a tad wider; I feel like my hips will support that anyway.

I went with the shorter seemingly less popular 170mm length for the crank because a) I'm fairly short, and b) I'm quite sure the bottom bracket is closer to the ground on this frame than most others. I'd like to avoid pedal strikes, plus I honestly feel like it will fit me better.

I also decided to a) take advantage of the SRAM crank's ability to go with a direct mount chain ring to save a bit of weight (plus they're newer and "better") instead of the regular bolt on ones, and b) go oval/eliptical. It's a weird choice, but after watching and reading some reviews, what the heck. This bike is strange, unique, and oddly shaped all over, so why not. If I don't like it, it's an easy replacement. I wanted to go red instead of black, direct mount, oval, so my choices came down to the only one available without international shipping - Absolute Black. B labs has one for direct order from Germany, and Wolf Tooth has some too, but I couldn't find them in red. I found one on JensonUSA's site for $62.93 plus tax, which is a pretty darn good price. It has a week shipping delay, but I don't think that will matter at this point.

I was planning on going with a 32T ring as a) that's what the Stache is shipping with, and b) I live in Illinois which is pretty flat, but I decided here to go with the 30T for some more climbing power since the elliptical will give me a little more 32T action (and 28T) anyway. Plus I don't exactly need flat out straight ahead speed when biking with my wife on a path.

After the tax, that put the crank plus ring at $281.81, so I think I got away pretty cheap for a near top of the line setup. I still need the actual BB30 kit, and I found a SRAM non ceramic on ebay for $30.95 (the ceramics are about $45 more; I didn't go ceramic on either of the hubs because of the price and lack of clear advantages, so I'm just going to stay away from them for now). All and all that puts me at $312.76, although I still need some tools. I think I did better than I was hoping for here when I first started looking at cranks, so I'm pleased and glad to get this last major part out of the way. I was avoiding it partially because all the sizing decisions I had to make and the compatibility tape to get around, but hopefully I have correctly, and hopefully everything ships.

Next up: spokes and nipples
Later: tools, stand, grease, etc.
Last: some basic gear. I'm not a spandex guy, so I'm going to steer clear of that, but I need to figure out whether or not to mount a phone for a GPS, odometer, speedometer, etc.

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Unit91MS said:


> Yeah the one piece is for the caliper mount. Where the axle goes through on the non derailleur side is also metal?


Ah ok thanks.

Nope it's actually carbon over there, part of the frame. It's just kind of dug out.









It's also the same on the other side, it just has the metal hangar screwed into it. The axel ultimately goes directly through the carbon frame itself. It's pretty thick on the non derailleur side, and a little thinner on the derailleur side, but appears to also be supported a bit by the hangar. So yeah, it only has metal on one side; sorry for any confusion.








Ignore the white cover for the axel. The metal feels like aluminum.

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

SRAM XX1 Red Crank 170mm Q168 BB30









I'm a little confused because a) it also says PF30 on the shaft that connects to the non drive side to the left of the BB30 symbol (too blurry to read in this pic. does it work on both? is an adapter needed, and if so, for which format?), and b) is there no bolt to connect them, only the 4 for connecting the chain ring (which I won't be using anyway), or am I looking at this wrong? Is the black bolt in the center all I need, or does another bolt run down the middle?

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Few more items:
Valves, BB30 bottom bracket, crank guards, and 10ft of 3m helicopter tape









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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Could you take some pictures of a ruler on the seatstay and eyeballed on the chainstays?

I'm curious if they will fit a 3.25" wide tire.

I think the way to check would be to take a 3.25" wide board and see how far back it would go against the BB.


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

What wheels are you using? There aren't a lot of Boost options that I've seen out there.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

I'll see what I can do. Will need a few days. I have a feeling it will be difficult to really know precisely until I've got the wheels in there.


Honestly I haven't seen a single boost 29+ wheel for sale yet. I'm building mine off of a 50mm Chinese carbon rim and project 321 hub that is due out next week 
(which is built off an industry nine hub that is out).



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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Correction, industry 9 has a wheel set starting at $1355, gulp...

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## TuTone T (Dec 12, 2012)

Subscribed, Thanks for doing this...

Maybe I missed it but what is your initial impression of the frame?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

TuTone T said:


> Subscribed, Thanks for doing this...
> 
> Maybe I missed it but what is your initial impression of the frame?


Np, I'm enjoying it (although my wallet is not)!

The frame looks great and pretty well done, but I really need to get out there and test it. Once the hubs show up, things will finally get moving.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

josephjosephson said:


> Once the hubs show up, things will finally get moving.


I guess the $100 Novatecs (711/712, Boost edition) both Workswell and ICAN can sell you along with the frame were a no-go 
If that's too light, Novatec also makes heavier, sturdier models: ISSUU - Novatec 2016 hubs by DEMA Bicycles and you could probably bug Workswell about those too


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## DrMekon (Jun 13, 2015)

Just a note to say that I ordered the fork from the ICAN equivalent. The thread has not been tapped out properly - see the read line in the dropout insert.

Additionally, the thread on the thru-axle wasn't cut in far enough, meaning that even when I got that thread machined off, I couldn't tighten the wheel.

I've been dealing with Melody at ICAN. She's currently saying that it's not clear what is wrong. I've explained that the shop knows it's an 18TPI thread, but need to know what the pitch is. I've also said I think she needs to send me a new thru-axle (notwithstanding that I came up with the solution I did because I was a day away from a 200km event that I'd booked accommodation for).

I'm hoping she comes back to me with details of the required tap and confirmation that a new thru-axle is in the post.

Up to this point, communication has been very clear.

This is what it looks like on the Stache 9. Using it in place of a Manitou Pro that is being warrantied.


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

josephjosephson said:


> The hangars themselves are metal, along with the axel and that thing on the opposite side of the hangar (lol honestly I don't even know what it's for, something for the brakes I assume?)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice looking frame. Thanks for the nice pictures. I was curious on how they did the dropouts. I purchased the Workswell 062 29er frame a month or so ago. I've been very pleased with their product and communication so far. I really wanted to get this frame but I wanted a more XC oriented bike and the Boost standard required me to get new wheels. And since Boost is still new, finding some at a low price is near impossible.



DrMekon said:


> I've been dealing with Melody at ICAN. She's currently saying that it's not clear what is wrong. I've explained that the shop knows it's an 18TPI thread, but need to know what the pitch is.


This should help. About half way down the page is a chart showing everything you should need
Black Lock


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

BXCc said:


> I really wanted to get this frame but I wanted a more XC oriented bike and the Boost standard required me to get new wheels. And since Boost is still new, finding some at a low price is near impossible.


With Novatec offering boost hubs, we may be able to convince Workswell to make a Boost wheelset to send along with the frame.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Anyone have an email to contact Workswell with?


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

BXCc said:


> the Boost standard required me to get new wheels. And since Boost is still new, finding some at a low price is near impossible.


When I spoke to Sarah about this frame, she offered to sell Novatec's first Boost hubset for $100 (711-B15/712-B12)
That's the price of a single SRAM 746 rear hub elsewhere, so not expensive at all.
Rims are another thing, though: no such thing as a cheap 29+ rim - even Velocity Duallies cost like $90 apiece
Pretty sure Jalco/Weinmann/Stars circle are busy making some inexpensive ones for complete bikes, but we'll never see those in retail


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

PHeller said:


> Anyone have an email to contact Workswell with?


Sarah Liu: liuxiaofangsz at 126 dot com


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

PHeller said:


> With Novatec offering boost hubs, we may be able to convince Workswell to make a Boost wheelset to send along with the frame.





bruto said:


> When I spoke to Sarah about this frame, she offered to sell Novatec's first Boost hubset for $100 (711-B15/712-B12)
> That's the price of a single SRAM 746 rear hub elsewhere, so not expensive at all.
> Rims are another thing, though: no such thing as a cheap 29+ rim - even Velocity Duallies cost like $90 apiece
> Pretty sure Jalco/Weinmann/Stars circle are busy making some inexpensive ones for complete bikes, but we'll never see those in retail


Sorry for the temporary highjacking, but I over analyzed this frame purchase many times over. My reasoning was/is: 
1) I already have a trail bike, SC 5010 cc tweaked to my liking so no need to overlap, 
2) I wanted an XC oriented hardtail that would have 2 wheelsets, 1 would be narrow and light to use it as a gravel grinder / flat bar roadie and the other would either be wide 29er wheels or 27.5+ wheels, 
3) the wheels on my 5010 are 30mm internal so they can (maybe not optimal) be used in the off season for the 27.5+ setup. 
4) Workswell had a "sale" and I got the frame, fork, headset, both sets of rear dropouts, and both front and rear axles for $445. Which allowed me to keep it under $1k using parts from my parts bin

So here I am drooling over dedicated + bikes. :thumbsup:


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## Unit91MS (Sep 10, 2015)

DrMekon said:


> I've explained that the shop knows it's an 18TPI thread, but need to know what the pitch is.


Unless I'm missing something, 18 threads per inch is the pitch...



PHeller said:


> With Novatec offering boost hubs, we may be able to convince Workswell to make a Boost wheelset to send along with the frame.


Workswell and ICAN both quoted me ~450-500 USD for a set of boost 27.5+ wheels, so it's absolutely a possibility.


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Unit91MS said:


> Unless I'm missing something, 18 threads per inch is the pitch...


I thought the same thing. Technically that is correct but since it is metric, the pitch should be 1.5mm per thread. I think that is where they are getting lost. They are both correct but since one is talking metric and the other SAE, it's getting lost in translation.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> I guess the $100 Novatecs (711/712, Boost edition) both Workswell and ICAN can sell you along with the frame were a no-go
> If that's too light, Novatec also makes heavier, sturdier models: ISSUU - Novatec 2016 hubs by DEMA Bicycles and you could probably bug Workswell about those too


Interesting. I did notice them on the ican bike that was already setup, but I couldn't find the hubs anywhere. I wonder how these are. Never heard of them. I have 321's on order, but they're pretty expensive and more than I wanted to spend, and they haven't shipped yet....I need a Lefty Supermax hub for up front though also so that limits my choices a bit as well, although a bit differently than the 110 does.

Where did you find the price?

I found this review: Novatec Diablo V2 Wheel review
and: JoyTech serves high-end wheel market with Novatec brand | BIKE Magazine


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

@drmekon
Dang, sorry to hear about all the trouble you're going through :|


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

@pheller: yea...or order the rims separate and get a LBS to setup 
Workswell doesnt build the bike up, but ican does. Here is workswell on ebay (named hscarbonframe; they're great at responding here and where I ordered my frame, stem, seatpost, and handlebars): hscarbonframe on eBay

@Bxcc: yep np. i was stoked after reading all the new stache reviews. i just want something fun to ride


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

BXCc said:


> Sorry for the temporary highjacking, but I over analyzed this frame purchase many times over. My reasoning was/is:
> 1) I already have a trail bike, SC 5010 cc tweaked to my liking so no need to overlap,
> 2) I wanted an XC oriented hardtail that would have 2 wheelsets, 1 would be narrow and light to use it as a gravel grinder / flat bar roadie and the other would either be wide 29er wheels or 27.5+ wheels,
> 3) the wheels on my 5010 are 30mm internal so they can (maybe not optimal) be used in the off season for the 27.5+ setup.
> ...


Naa no worries man. Glad you're stoked about it, thats a great deal!

For everyone, if you don't mind spending a bit more, I got 50mm carbon rims for 29+ 3" wheels for $402 (with ebay gift cards bought at 15% discount and 10% ebay bucks cash back), and although I havent built them up yet, I have to say, they're gorgeous looking


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

josephjosephson said:


> Where did you find the price?


From Sarah, just ask her about it
Or whoever is the person at WW you bought the frame from
These Novatecs are basically the Boost version of venerable 771/772
Good sealing, lightweight XC hubs with 27 POE I think
You can get steel freehub body, and rear axle (well, 12x142, no 148mm one yet) for them if you so desire
XD freehub is also available


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Looks like you can get Novatec 148 hubs on ebay.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

PHeller said:


> Looks like you can get Novatec 148 hubs on ebay.


Thanks! Dang $100 for both. Not sure what to think - too cheap to be good, or I'm getting ripped off lol...

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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Yea and if you do some pricing, take something like the 2016 Spank Oozy 395+, a 35mm internal alloy rim that will probably cost somewhere between $80 and $90. 

Pair that with these hubs, some Sapim spokes, and if somebody else builds the wheels your easily over $500. You could save money lacing the wheels yourself and someone true them up. Then you may be able to get a decent wheelset for $400.

Peter from XM Carbon Speed quoted me around $700 shipped for 50mm carbon rims laced with Sapim spokes to these Novatec Boost hubs, for comparison.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

josephjosephson said:


> Thanks! Dang $100 for both. Not sure what to think - too cheap to be good, or I'm getting ripped off lol...


it's actually a mid-range price for mass-produced Taiwan hubs, the seller is trying to make a little extra with the exaggerated shipping quote

where you're getting ripped off is when you buy small-scale boutique stuff CNC'ed in the West, where labour costs and expected profit margins are much higher

Even the coolest Novatecs (541/542 being ridden by Zink and Strait at RB Rampage as we speak) go for like $250 in Chinese retail. And they're likely superior to more expensive, DH/FR-rated hubs from other manufacturers in every regard (except when you have to replace that huge ass bearing 

P.S.: wide rims got a little cheaper, get them while they last: FatLab Fifty-Five 29" disc rim, 32h black NLS, Rims
not much heavier than carbon, no cutouts


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Chainreactioncycles.com will do Hope hubs and Scraper rims for around $600. A riding friend of mine just had some Hope 15 front 142x12 rear built with DT Comp spokes and Easton ARC 30 rims built up by them. Cost was just over $500 and the weight was 1998g before tape and stems.


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

I am running the same 50mm carbon rim, but in 27.5+. I also bought separate hubs (Powerway) and had my lbs lace them with brass nips and comp spokes I believe. Unbelievably light and nimble on my fat bike and TF 3.25 inch tires! Your build was something I was also considering, but my wheels would be a no-go on this frame and I like the slightly smaller B+ wheels for my riding style. Look good man!


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

josephjosephson, I see you've picked a non-Boost crankset
Can you take a picture of the chainline when you have the wheels built?
I mean, report chain-tire clearance in the lowest gear and pictures of the chain in lowest&highest gears from the front to see how bad the angle is
I heard some people say that 52mm chainline cranks are not really necessary with 148mm rear hub, curious whether that's true


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> josephjosephson, I see you've picked a non-Boost crankset
> Can you take a picture of the chainline when you have the wheels built?
> I mean, report chain-tire clearance in the lowest gear and pictures of the chain in lowest&highest gears from the front to see how bad the angle is
> I heard some people say that 52mm chainline cranks are not really necessary with 148mm rear hub, curious whether that's true


Correct, it's a regular crank. I will post pictures with a ruler (waiting on hubs still; will be 1-2 more weeks). From what I understand it's not an issue with a single chain ring up front but it does become an issue with 2x and 3x setups.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

by the way, where did you buy these "eyeleted" rims? Mind weighing them and posting general impressions? Also, from the pictures it appears that the spoke holes are offset in the same direction from the rim's plane of symmetry - is that correct?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> by the way, where did you buy these "eyeleted" rims? Mind weighing them and posting general impressions? Also, from the pictures it appears that the spoke holes are offset in the same direction from the rim's plane of symmetry - is that correct?


I bought them here:
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=251976320191&alt=web 
But the picture is wrong; the correct picture is used here:

http://m.ebay.com/itm/50mm-width-25...3D251976320191&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460

I'm 98% sure they're the same. I didn't expect to get the latter ones, but I did, and I have a feeling to be honest, that is the only version they have. Why they list the price differently in two spots, I don't know, but I've seen that before with stuff like this. They have a website too and I believe they post the picture with the raised eyelid rims, or w/e they're called. Someone posted the site in a thread in this forum for 29"+ rims, but if have to search for them. Ultimately buying from eBay was the safer and cheaper way to go.

They look and feel awesome, better than the frame to be honest. The workmanship looks highly professional. The real test however will be once I get on them.

I don't have a scale with me, but ill probably get one with a stand here soon. Once I do, I'll weigh everything. They're as light as hoolla hoops though 

Finally, yes they are both offset by 3mm all in one direction. There were no options for staggered offset, and I wanted this over just holes down the middle because 29s are obviously big hoops and can probably use the offset to account for dishing effects.

Will give weights and reviews soon.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

wow, they just keep getting cheaper and cheaper 
First I've seen them here: Plus Eyelet Carbon MTB Rims - Carbon Rims - MTB Free Shipping 29er 50mm width Clincher & Hookless Hybrid Bead Wide Plus Eyelet Carbon FiberMTB Bike Rims Eyelet-950S for $329.00
then in Peter's store they're $440
now you show me even more lucrative offer 

I wonder if they all come from the same place or it's an open mold and various companies make them with varying degree of QC

Also, about spoke hole placement, I somehow think that staggered drilling like on Fatlab's rims results in a laterally stiffer wheel (despite decreased spoke brace angle). Nipples being more perpendicular to the rim are an added bonus. Might be wrong, though


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

FWIW, these guys: sell this "eyeleted" rim with different drilling options: Tandell Composite Technology|Hand Built Carbon Bike Components
Costs a bit more than what you paid, jojo, but the benefit of a particular pattern might outweigh the premium. I asked about drilling angle and Daniel replied that they're indeed drilled at alternating +/7 degrees to provide better seat for the nipples


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> FWIW, these guys: sell this "eyeleted" rim with different drilling options: Tandell Composite Technology|Hand Built Carbon Bike Components
> Costs a bit more than what you paid, jojo, but the benefit of a particular pattern might outweigh the premium. I asked about drilling angle and Daniel replied that they're indeed drilled at alternating +/7 degrees to provide better seat for the nipples


Interesting, cool. The pictures and stats look the same, but I didn't get an alternating option (not sure if they provide that). Regarding the angled drilling, I'll have to actually check mine; I never thought of that. Either way, those are a good price....even though I have nod idea how to make wheels, I just couldn't justify the cost of buying Ana aluminum pre-made name brand wheel for the same price, or a carbon for 4x the price. Glad these are available.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

there're alloy rims for half the price, actually ($210 shipped in the US)
single wall, no cutouts so no need for rim strip
debating going for Fatlabs myself (link posted several posts earlier)


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> there're alloy rims for half the price, actually ($210 shipped in the US)
> single wall, no cutouts so no need for rim strip
> debating going for Fatlabs myself (link posted several posts earlier)


True, good deal. Then again though, you can build carbon wheels with cheap spokes and hubs for under $300 a piece, but point taken 

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

where did you get the Lefty and how much for, by the way?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> where did you get the Lefty and how much for, by the way?


From some dude on ebay. $750. Seemed like this guy had a bunch of canondale bikes and parts he bought in lot from like a LBS going out of business.

I've yet to test it or open it up (which I'm hoping to avoid until mid winter; I'd like to learn how to service it, but it's a bit intimidating and risky), so I don't know if it's in good shape or even damaged inside, but the outside is like a 9/10 so I'm hoping that's an indication of the mechanical condition.

It honestly seems overkill for a hard tail, but I couldn't pass up on the deal. Pretty excited to let it rip (Cmon hubs! Project 321 said they're getting anondized so maybe late this week or next week).

Bringing me to the next crucial step, I need to buy spokes still. I have all the dimensions I need, I just to understand where specifically the lengths differ and based on what. That's this week's learning module.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

750 for a used fork? you can get a new Magnum for less (and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a 29+ Reba for even less sometime soon)
Being able to use the same front wheel with a rigid fork if the suspension one broke or circumstances called for it is a bonus

as for spokes, put your numbers in DT Swiss spoke calc and adjust the center-to-flange distances by substracting 3mm fron the larger number (flange distance right in the front, left in the rear) and adding them to the smaller one

and then don't forget to orient the rims accordingly when lacing them  (spoke holes offset to the right in the front, left in the rear)


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Well, yea, but it's a 2015 and doesn't look like (nor would it really be all too possible) it has a lot of mileage on it, and it's $1400 suspension. There seem to be a lot of magnum problems too with people sending them in to be fixed and having to wait weeks to get them back. I got totally dissuaded from using one after reading lots of poor reviews.

Definitely true on the same wheel issue...maybe I'll grab a rigid lefty if it ever comes to it (yes they exist!).

I'll try out the calculator tonight and see what I come up with. Why is the offset different from front to back exactly?

Thanks!

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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Honestly the new Lefty's are quite nice and their ability run various wheel widths and diameters by swapping hubs and 321 clamps is really cool.

Unfortunately the Supermax has bonded clamps, but you can still run a mighty big tire without rubbing.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

because the center of flange-to-flange distance is offset to the right in the front (relative to center of the axle and frame's central plane) and to the left in the rear


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Wow hmm I didn't realize that about the front. I knew it was like that in the rear mostly because of the cassette (although canondale has some asym rear triangles now that could change that...), but I didn't realize that was the case up front too. I just figured the disc brake will pull the wheel toward it hence the need for proper dishing, different tensions, or whatever it's called.

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

PHeller said:


> Honestly the new Lefty's are quite nice and their ability run various wheel widths and diameters by swapping hubs and 321 clamps is really cool.
> 
> Unfortunately the Supermax has bonded clamps, but you can still run a mighty big tire without rubbing.


Ya! I saw a Supermax on a fatty like that parked in front of a car somewhere in this forum and that's where I got the idea! Go lefties! Lol. The pure lack of 29+ suspension options drove me to it, but I'm happy where I landed, so far 

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

*Spoke (and Nipple) Size Determination, based on Rim and Hub selection*

So I gathered all my info together in one picture (might be a bit huge and difficult to navigate; I apologize). I *think*, with you all's help (esp Bruto, ty), I have this figured out correct. If anyone can confirm it and answer a few questions, that'd be a huge help!

1) Do the final sizes look correct?
2) Did I add and subtract the offset amounts to the correct location?
3) Does a 2 mm spoke and 2 mm nipple work?
4) Do the hole spoke diameter and assembly hole diameters matter at all (not even sure what the assembly hole diameter is)?
5) Is "3 cross" the same as "3 intersections left" plus "3 intersections right"?

Am I ready to buy spokes!? Any thoughts on the Sapim CX-Ray's?

I want to go white spokes. I ordered red hubs. The rest of the bike is basically black (with some red accents). I'll probably swap the black grips for red ones, the black pedals for red ones, and put a 2014 red supermax sticker on the Lefty over top the green one. The chain ring is also red, and the SRAM components are the "red" accented ones.

Thanks again everyone!


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

yes on all accounts
the difference between spoke hole diameter and spoke thickness at the head matters a little bit, it can be a few tenths of a millimeter and might allow you to round spoke length down

I don't know what size Torx socket wrench is used for the squorx nipples but it may not fit through the spoke holes (unless you're buying DT Swiss branded and overpriced version  which would make lacing the wheels a bit more frustrating


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

More white spokes!









Just thought I would help with the white spoke visual. I wasn't sure how I felt about white spokes until I had them. They look a lot better in person. Looks like you are going to have a sweet + bike. :thumbsup:


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

I gave a link to Fatlab 29x55 rims as an option for this kinda bike earlier, but apparently it doesn't really work with Boost hubs.
Spoke to Marvin from Fatlab today, he said that this spoke hole drilling (staggered 17.5mm either side from the rim center) won't allow for spoke/brake caliper clearance at least on some Boost hubs. This drilling is for fat hubs only, so look for smaller spoke hole offsets (like Hugo) or center drilled rims.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> I gave a link to Fatlab 29x55 rims as an option for this kinda bike earlier, but apparently it doesn't really work with Boost hubs.
> Spoke to Marvin from Fatlab today, he said that this spoke hole drilling (staggered 17.5mm either side from the rim center) won't allow for spoke/brake caliper clearance at least on some Boost hubs. This drilling is for fat hubs only, so look for smaller spoke hole offsets (like Hugo) or center drilled rims.


Ok, good call. Thanks.

I ended up ordering 29x50mm ones with a boost 148 rear hub and lefty supermax front hub both from project 321, and they finally shipped! Yesterday I just ordered a handful of tools (dang this is getting expensive...). Last item left is spokes. I'm thinking about sapim cx-ray's in white. They'll take about a week or so to get. I'm about to order from Jenson usa, the only one who even has these spokes in white and the size I need, but I'm upset I missed a 50 off 300 from like 2 weeks ago...but oh well. This projec almost feels like it stalled out, but I'm almost there. I'll start some assembly next week but will have to wait on the spokes until i can get the wheels done and, well, everything that needs them to be installed (which is like 85% of the bike lol). Will post pics soon.

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Few more parts have shown up over the past few days. I ordered my spokes, some tools, stand, etc., so once the stand and grease arrives, I'll slowly start building. Once the spokes show up, then I can really get moving.

Absolute Black Oval 32T direct mount chain ring








I originally ordered the 30T, but it was back ordered so I settle on the 32. I was on the fence originally, so no biggie. It says "GXP and long BB30 models only." I have a BB30 xx1 crank that takes direct mounts, but not sure about it being "long." Guess we'll see...also says to "apply a drop of medium strength threadlocker..." seriously? Wth is that...anti-grease? Another thing to order, lol, smh...

Shout out to Project 321. Their stuff looks like seriously good quality. Left to right: Boost 148 Rear Hub (from the first batch off their line, built on the Industry 9 internals), Lefty Supermax tapered adapter, Lefty Supermax Hub. This might be the first set of matching front and rear Boost 148/Lefty hub sets in existence.









Arrived today. Can't say enough about the quality look. Hopefully I can say the same about a quality ride soon...

Left to right, top then bottom:
Nicholson Double Cut Bastard (really? Where do they get these names?) file for after cutting the Lefty adapter (if I had one I could've saved the $5, but I didn't), FSA Carbon Aluminum paste ($26 for that little container, dang...), Lefty truing dummy axel tool (so you can mount the Lefty wheel to true like you would with a normal wheel since the Lefty only connects on the...left), DT Swiss 2.0x12mm black brass nipples (brass > aluminum on carbon rims), Finish Line dry chain lube (for later), Nicholson Round Single Cut Bastard file (to get the inside of the Lefty adapter after cutting it, SW-7.2 Park tool triple spoke wrench (what a pain in my rear to figure out the size I needed for this. They couldn't use mm and needed to use inches when the spokes and nipples are measured in mm? Really?! I got the triple in case I build some other wheels later with different size nipples), carbon headset spacers (2, 3, 5, 10, 15mm) in case I need them (pretty cheap), Project 321 Lefty hub cap and titanium bolt kit (pretty sure you need this to actually secure the Lefty to the hub and it doesnt come with the hub nor the Lefty for some reason), and a Cannondale Lefty bumper (goes on the frame to protect it from the Lefty banging when you over turn the handlebars (I could've used some cheap piece of foam, but at this point what's a few extra bucks).









I also got a cheap chainstay protector, but not sure if I'll use it...if I can find it, and some Stan's valves, but they're aluminum so I may order some brass ones.

That's about it. I don't think I'm going to order a $50+ scale guys, so whoever is looking for weights may have to settle with a bathroom scale measurement lol....we'll see....I've cleaned up the basement and have my work spot ready to go. Hopefully I can get to work next week!

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

josephjosephson said:


> It says "GXP and long BB30 models only." I have a BB30 xx1 crank that takes direct mounts, but not sure about it being "long." Guess we'll see...


https://sram-cdn-pull-zone-gsdesign...v_a_direct_mount_chain_ring_compatibility.pdf

I think your chainline will be off by 6mm 
Also, 32t might be too big


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Hmm, good find. Guess a few mess ups along the way are to be expected. I'll actually try to fit this up today and double check, but yeah, I may have to order a different one...Thanks for the forewarning!

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

6mm offset should be way off
people say Boost (52mm chainline) single is too far outboard, and you're gonna have it 3mm further with this chainring


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> 6mm offset should be way off
> people say Boost (52mm chainline) single is too far outboard, and you're gonna have it 3mm further with this chainring


When you say 6mm offset, that is 6mm extra outwards from the BB, right? This chain ring pushes it further outwards? I thought the issue was it would be too close, and a long BB would push it further outwards? I'll have to research this a bit...

I guess the important thing will be is there a fix for this, like an adapter or spacer? Or will I need to replace the ring with either an offset direct mount, or a non-direct mount? Or can I not even use a direct mount? Or do I have the wrong crank all together?

I'm trying to basically copy the Stache's which have 30 and 32T rings, but there are some differences that maybe I overlooked assuming they wouldn't affect clearance:
a) they use PF30s for BB's, and for the crank, GXP? Not sure...
b) they don't use direct mount chain rings
Remember here that I have an elevated chain stay also like the Stache, so clearance of the chainstay shouldn't be an issue (if I understand correctly). The clearance issue should be restricted to the bottom bracket, or the chainstay - down tube joint, right? The chain line may still be an issue with regards to smooth shifting in the rear, right?

Thanks again btw, this is greatly appreciated. Wish I could give yall a ride once it's done lol.

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

josephjosephson said:


> I thought the issue was it would be too close, and a long BB would push it further outwards? I'll have to research this a bit...


You are correct that the 6mm offset is inboard. The BB30 versions (from all makers) is basically a flat piece of metal. The standard GXP ones are dished inward. I have a BB30 one on my X0 crank. The BB30 version on a BSA bike can be made to work with spacers under the cups. Not sure there is much that can make it work the way you are hoping.

Here is a picture when it was still on the X9 crankset


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

Long spindle BB30 cranks use a spindle spacer on the drive side I think, atleast that's the difference between my Rival 22 and Red 22 BB30 cranksets.

Just send it back, it won't work


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Nice looking bike 

Hmm. I got such a dang good deal on the crank though 
Lemme brain storm once football is over lol. 

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

The crankset may not be the issue, just the chainring. What BB does the bike have and which crank did you end up getting?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

BXCc said:


> The crankset may not be the issue, just the chainring. What BB does the bike have and which crank did you end up getting?


Oh, that'd be good. BB30 on the frame and the crank.

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

josephjosephson said:


> Oh, that'd be good. BB30 on the frame and the crank.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


You should be good to go then with the crank. You will just need a new chainring. It just so happens that I was debating about trying an elliptical one. Let me know if you can't return. I might be interested in it.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

BXCc said:


> You should be good to go then with the crank. You will just need a new chainring. It just so happens that I was debating about trying an elliptical one. Let me know if you can't return. I might be interested in it.


Cool thanks. I will keep that in mind. My stand is coming tomorrow, but I'm going to try to get the bb and crank in now and see if I can verify what looks to be that the chain ring won't fit, and then i can order one before the end if day.

Makeshift work location, pre-stand:









A few more things came in:








Grease, BB30 installation tool, torque wrench, cheap chainstay protector that I relocated, and a cheap hacksaw.








Wheel mount adapter for the back side of the stand and floor pump








Front and rear light (by the time I get this together, sunset is going to be 4pm...)

Here we go!

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

what tires are you going to use?
don't say Vee Trax Fatty!


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> what tires are you going to use?
> don't say Vee Trax Fatty!


Maxxis Chronicle 29+ Tire 29 x 3.0, 120 tpi 

On another note, I guess the BB30 tool I got is just to remove BB bearings (really, $40 tool to bang out a bearing?), so this is a major pita to get them installed without the press. I got one about 80% in so far. May end up at the LBS if I can't get this in safely and soon.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

you just buy stuff on a whim, don't you? 
then again, it's a bike enthusiast forum...

For the record, there're whole kits for pulling bearings out of blind holes available for about as much on ebay. Granted, BB30 BB is not exactly a blind hole, but some other places on a bike are.
This one would serve you well for BBs, hubs, suspension pivots: Inner Bearing Puller Set Remover Slide Hammer Internal Kit 8 32mm 9pc Blind Hole | eBay
Pressing them in is a different story, you can have a machinist make you another kit, or buy from places like Wheels Mfg
Or you could use a long bolt, two washers of appropriate size (same OD as the bearing and ID same or smaller than the bearing), two nuts and two wrenches
And the C-clip tool, since it's BB30 (needlenose pliers may also work since BB shell is big enough)


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Lol, guilty as charged...I am though attempting to research everything before I buy it, but I apparently failed to understand that you really need a press to get in the BB bearings, you can just bang it in with this remover tool (yes, I tried...and although some people do use 2x4's with success, I have not had success - it's just way too tight, which is fine by me. I chose BB30 over PF30 because the opposite is true with the latter and causes lots of issues).

With that said, thank you for the idea! I went to Lowe's and built my $2 Josephson Park BB press:

















At work now so I will have to continue tonight. Looks like it should work now so long as I can find 2 wrenches 

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

Make one of them a ratchet - way easier that way

P.S.: hey look, JJ
CS-527 2016 650B 27.5er plus mountain bikes carbon frame - Xiamen Carbon Speed Sport Goods Co.,Ltd
I like the beefier looking BB area and larger tubes


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Nice. That's who I got my rims from (on ebay).

So I still can't get these bearings in. I ended up bending the rod and the washers. It's extremely difficult to get the bearings to get in at all before they're slightly off center, and then they just continue to go more and more sideways as I crank away. Unfortunately, they even stripped a bit of metal from the BB due to being forced in crooked. I'm probably going to an LBS tomorrow who has a press (some don't apparently after calling...).

Got my stand today too. You can see some of the small metal strips and the lines that got made in the BB in these pics. Hopefully it won't be a big deal, and hopefully the BB size is within the acceptable error margin.


















































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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

I did have success pressing in hub bearings with a wrench and a ratchet, but it's easier with a proper press for sure (where the nut has two handles)


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> I did have success pressing in hub bearings with a wrench and a ratchet, but it's easier with a proper press for sure (where the nut has two handles)


Yea true that. I think the problem I ran into was the bearings were already partially in from before (having banged them in with a hammer, wood, etc., be careful and not directing hitting them of course), so when I started to use the Josephson press, it immediately bent it. I went to Home Depot this time and got some heavy gauge bolts and washer and will start fresh, one more time, before I resort to the LBS tomorrow.

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Round 2, fight!








Bigger bolt, 1 sided

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

I lost round 2, but the LBS won the fight for me.








I did gouge the BB a bit, but he cleaned it up, sanded it, put in some green locktite, and, replaced the bearings (I beat up one), and pressed it in for me. Ran about $60, $30 which was for a new set of bearings. At this point, it was worth it. Onto the crank...

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

interestingly, DT and Hope hub service manuals name rubber mallet as a tool of choice instead of the rubber press
you do have the drifts so I think it's still doable at home (your BB shell seems to be ok as LBS didn't have to ream it)
I say knock them out and try tapping/pressing in again


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> interestingly, DT and Hope hub service manuals name rubber mallet as a tool of choice instead of the rubber press
> you do have the drifts so I think it's still doable at home (your BB shell seems to be ok as LBS didn't have to ream it)
> I say knock them out and try tapping/pressing in again


Interesting...well the guy actually pressed it for me so hopefully I won't have to mess with it again for 5 more years....now I need a 10mm hex. Woops...shouldve just had the guy install the crank too lol.

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

So I couldn't get the torque wrench to click so I just called it quits to avoid over-tightening. I'll worry about tightening everything later, especially since I'll have to pull it off to use thread locker on the chain ring. Good news is the chain ring looks to fit fine, but we'll see after the wheels go on. I'm glad I got the wider Q factor cranks too. Clearance is quite minimal.

































Working on the steerer and getting that cut. I threw in the handlebars to make sure I didn't run into any clearance problems. Looks good so I can keep the stem for now.









Spokes shipped today. Going to prep the rims 

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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Are you going to build the wheels yourself? 

If so we're going to be waiting for awhile to see this thing complete! 

I don't think I've see any pictures of the Workswell 29+ complete build.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

PHeller said:


> Are you going to build the wheels yourself?
> 
> If so we're going to be waiting for awhile to see this thing complete!
> 
> I don't think I've see any pictures of the Workswell 29+ complete build.


Haha I know, right? I'm gonna try! I'll give it all this weekend and if I can't get it I'll just spend the $90 and get a shop to do it.

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Most up to date pic. Got the headset installed and Lefty adapter cut. I left it long for now and will cut it shorter if I decide I need the handle bars lower after riding it. It has some play and is making a little bit of a rubbing noise so I may have to pull it apart, but it could be that it's not fully tightened up yet. I'll wait till I can drop it on the front wheel, get it all to compress, then tighten up again and see what happens.

Next up I'm going to try and get the shifter and brake levers installed and cables routed while I wait on the spokes. I threw the bottle cages on too.

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Not sure if it will help but here is how I did mine.

Internal cable routing in 6 easy steps


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

BXCc said:


> Not sure if it will help but here is how I did mine.
> 
> Internal cable routing in 6 easy steps


Awesome ty. Will check it out

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

So getting the brakes and shifters on. I feel like I'm missing part of the mount for the shifter though.










Here's the shifter, "discrete clamp" per the labeled plastic bag, cable and cable ends underneath.










That piece right under the number "3" is not on my shifter.










Here's the brake lever









And what the matchmaker clamp should look like, which I want to do anyway (eventually) but i couldn't figure out which exact clamp I needed. Should be easier now that I've got the lever on the bar and understand how these connect a little better than before









Will do some research and report back. May try to mount the calipers. I can already tell that's going to be a trip. There are like 20 different mounting setups (like really? Smh...)









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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Rookie mistake. That glob of grease was covering the hole lol.

Guess this is a matchmaker clamp
















/stoked
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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Looking more like a bike. Did a dry run on some things (connect front caliper - looks like direct mount), pedals, lights, hubs [bet you never seen a bike with hubs and no wheels lol], or got impatient...will leave the cabling, rear derailleur, brakes till the end. Got the wheel mount for the back of the stand ready to check the dish

























Time to get ready for work...

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

PHeller said:


> Are you going to build the wheels yourself?
> 
> If so we're going to be waiting for awhile to see this thing complete!
> 
> I don't think I've see any pictures of the Workswell 29+ complete build.












Smh...aero spokes...they're too wide to thread through the hub holes. Hating it...will have to order some new spokes and try to return these. And so the wait continues...dang

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

wide (>2.2mm) aero spokes = suck
heavy and pointless
just get round ones or sapim cx-rays/pillar 1420/pillar 1422 if you're bent on bladed spokes


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

These are cx rays actually, at least according to the label and what I ordered. I'll have to take a closer look. I thought these were going to fit. Either I overlooked the size, or they sent me the wrong size. I don't really have an attachment to bladed spokes, it just seemed like a cool concept. I really wanted (decent) white spokes though, that was the thing.

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## jja (Jan 14, 2004)

I've never heard of white cx-rays. Looking back, I see you found them at Jenson. They should be trustworthy and in any case will accept a return. But also see and email Sapim and Thor. I wonder if these are some after-market white coating or anodizing?

Thanks for the thread, I've been following with interest since I'm curious about this frame.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

CX-Rays are 2.2 or 2.3mm wide, depending on the source
guess your hubs are not compatible with anything >2mm  spoke holes on my DT 350's were large enough for these


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

jja said:


> I've never heard of white cx-rays. Looking back, I see you found them at Jenson. They should be trustworthy and in any case will accept a return. But also see and email Sapim and Thor. I wonder if these are some after-market white coating or anodizing?
> 
> Thanks for the thread, I've been following with interest since I'm curious about this frame.


The rest of your message got cut off. I saw it in my preview but not here. You mentioned something about them being painted vs anodized I think? They're clearly painted, and now that I look at them and think about it, I could've painted any old spoke myself...


















They look legit, but they're not going to fit. I'll just have to return them unless someone wants them.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

white pillar X-TRA 1420: Find All China Products On Sale from Xiamen A-ONE Bicycle Co. on Aliexpress.com - Pillar PSR Aero X-TRA 1420 Super Light 4.3g/pc Straight Pull Gauge 14 14G 2.0mm spokes with free black alloy 7075 nipples,Pillar PSR Aero X-TRA 1420 Sandvik SS black wh
pretty much the best spoke they make short of titanium one, and 2mm wide
for less than CX-Rays, too, and you don't have to buy in multiples of 20

seller is legit, I bought hub parts from him before

they're still painted, though, so it'll chip with time,
and if that bothers you, he carries other colours 

I'm surprised you weren't able to mate cx rays with your hubs, though, because P321's docs claim that their spoke hole diameter is 2.5mm: http://www.project321.com/pdf/HUB-SPECIFICATIONS-AND-WHEEL-BUILDING-INFORMATION.pdf
maybe call them before sending the spokes back?


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## jja (Jan 14, 2004)

josephjosephson said:


> The rest of your message got cut off. I saw it in my preview but not here. You mentioned something about them being painted vs anodized I think? They're clearly painted, and now that I look at them and think about it, I could've painted any old spoke myself...


Right, I wondered if the painting was way too thick. Project321 says the spoke holes are 2.5mm which should be plenty for the 2.2mm spoke, even with varying tolerances. Do you have a small caliper to measure the sizes? How tight is it really? I occasionally get a few spokes or hole combos that a bit tight getting the threads through the holes, due to the thread rolling. From your closeups, the paint may be even thicker than the threads at the end...


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

jja said:


> Right, I wondered if the painting was way too thick. Project321 says the spoke holes are 2.5mm which should be plenty for the 2.2mm spoke, even with varying tolerances. Do you have a small caliper to measure the sizes? How tight is it really? I occasionally get a few spokes or hole combos that a bit tight getting the threads through the holes, due to the thread rolling. From your closeups, the paint may be even thicker than the threads at the end...


2.5 mm seems like plenty of room. These are like you said supposed to be 2.2mm at their widest point according to Sapim's site, but as someone pointed out, white is not an option... They're definitely getting hung up on the paint it seems, all of them, in all the holes, on both hubs, at the same point. I don't have a caliper unfortunately. On a ruler they're between a 1/16th and an 1/8th inch, so about 2.38mm, but closer to an 1/8th, so it make sense that these got too wide with the paint...





































Project 321 even said they use cx ray's on their carbon rims, but not white...so I'm about to call Jenson and ask to return these. I'll take a look at the alibaba ones. Is it possible these are the same somewhere on ebay? Any idea what the time to delivery is (I've seen 1 week and I've seen 3 weeks with stuff from China). Getting anxious to just get this bike on the road.

Jenson said they'll take them back np. So now to just order another set and hopefully not run into the same problem. I'm now leary of buying painted spokes...
Thank you everybody for the insights and advice.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

yeah you can buy them on ebay, but they're still getting shipped from China 
you can get silver or black cx-rays or aerolites closer to home I guess, for more, in multiples of 10 or 20 
mb Germany sounds better to you: https://r2-bike.com/sapim-spoke-cx-ray-silver
these are the cheapest silver cx-rays I was able to find, and sold by a single spoke


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Hmm....looks like all white spokes are actually powder coated. I worry about running into the same problem again, not to mention it's a bit expensive. The Chinese ones I found only come in black in the width that I need according to the seller after messaging him (1423, see: 44pcs Lot Pillar PSR Aero 1432 Stainless Steel Spokes Brass Nipples Spoke Nipple | eBay).

DT Swiss offers some (see: xtremebikeandsport | eBay) but they are also powder coated (see: To the Point - DT Swiss Talks Spokes - Pinkbike).

I'm leaning toward just ordering something fairly simple, in black, anodized not painted, with fast shipping, not too expensive, and guaranteed to fit. I can throw on spoke skins if I really want some white "bling" (heh: Custom Size Skins for Bicycles | Spokeskins).

Or I could go with some relatively inexpensive, non-bladed, white powder-coated white spokes(see: PWB WHITE 14 GAUGE SPOKES - prowheelbuilder.com).


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

Your link is to Pillar 1432 which are 3.2mm wide, not quite the same as 1420
also Pillar PSR is not the same as PSR X-TRA


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> Your link is to Pillar 1432 which are 3.2mm wide, not quite the same as 1420
> also Pillar PSR is not the same as PSR X-TRA


Yea apparently the seller didn't list the 1420's but says he has them...good call also. I didn't realize yours were a totally different model. I'm going to try and pick something out tonight, from eBay if possible because I have discounted gift card money and there is 3x ebay bucks today.

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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

Congrats on your project. Reminds me of the new Trek Stache but with your own spin on it. Looks like fun and hope it comes out well. I am worried about your chainline though. Without the correct chainline, there will be a lot of cross-chaining in the bottom gear(s) (big cogs) causing more wear on that expensive cassette, and it will derail when backpedaling. 

I felt your pain with the bottom bracket. There is no substitute for the correct tools (a real press). Too bad this bike wasn't available with a threaded BB.

I've done two from-scratch bike builds now. Both were labors of love. The first, in 2012, was an aluminum hardtail 29er with full XT and a custom-built wheelset and choice other parts. That bike served me well and there is something about building it yourself -- you know everything about the bike and can immediately tell when something is not right, but usually everything is perfect. The only issue I had with that bike was an annoying creak that I eventually traced to the RD hanger and cured with grease, but it needed to be redone every 500 miles or so.

The second, in 2015, is a carbon hardtail 29er with XX1 gearing and shifting and the new XTR brakes. It weighs 19.5 pounds. Only about 150 miles in so far, and the bike rides extremely well -- can't believe how much better than the aluminum frame -- but the PF30 bottom bracket is a problem. The non-drive-side cup has worked its way out twice now. The preload adjuster on the crank (a used X01 crank) won't stay in position and slides back, allowing the crank to move laterally and the cup works its way out, about 2mm from the frame. Reinstalling with carbon friction paste did not help. If that BB can do that, then there is nothing to stop it from creaking either once I ride it in the rain. So I'm going to replace it with a screw-in Praxis BB. I didn't want to mess with my own wheelbuild as I got my hands on some Roval Control Carbons and thought they are so good I can't beat them.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Thanks! Nice to hear about your projects. Best of luck with the new one in particular and that BB. They are a major pain it seems. I avoided PF30 like the plague. Hopefully it was for the better, but as you could see, this wasn't exactly painless either. Additionally, after I started doing this I was like man, I wonder if I should have went full suspension...but I live in Chicago, so yea, I think I'll be fine.

Yea there was some concern here earlier expressed about the chain line, or the front chain ring (and I assume how that would affect the chain line). Clearance is fine up front, as you can see, but I'm not sure how its going to all work out on the back wheel. I'll have to play with it once the wheels are in and see if I can tell if there is slippage or anything. Should I be looking to have the chain run straight to the middle of the cog? If I run into any problems, and I'll probably cross that bridge then, is there anything I can do? Trek is somehow getting this setup to work on a 1x11 so I know I should be able to. Would you recommend a chain guide of some sort? I'll probably order a cheap plastic spoke guard for the back just to be safe.

I ended up ordering these spokes, per the recommendation of Bruto (through ebay though): Pillar PSR Aero x Tra 1420 Super Light 4 3G PC 14 Gauge with Nipple 44pcs Lot | eBay. I'm waiting to see if they have my size in (286, 288, 290mm). Getting a bit anxious as this project is crossing the 3 month mark tomorrow :| I may work on a few things this week just to get them out of the way like getting the brakes entirely figured out, running all the cables (which I was delaying), and putting some helicopter tape on vulnerable locations. Each will be it's own mini-project (getting used to that now), but it seems I will have at least another week on my hands so mine as well...


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

trek has a Boost crankset, so 52mm chainline
yours is 49+6 (the difference between GXP and BB30 DM chainring/spider offsets) = 55mm, so your chainring and cassette will wear out faster in low gears than they would otherwise

you can check the chainline without wheels by putting the rear hub with cassette in the dropouts, looping the chain around different cogs and looking at it from the front, eyes just above the chain
the angle between the chainring and the chain is quite apparent then

fewer distinct spoke lengths can be achieved by using different size nipples, by the way
so if your calculator tells you that you need X and X+2mm spokes for a particular wheel when using Ymm nipples, you can buy all spokes in length X instead and half the nipples in Y+2mm length

you'll need fewer spare spokes that way, and it's generally easier to remember


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

True, good point. I didn't think about the nipple sizes like that :x

Unfortunately there appears to be yet another tool I need - a cassette lock ring tool...like really there is no way this could be designed to spin the cassette into the hub without that? Meh...so anyway I got it partially on and could gently squeeze it into the rear triangle, but once this is properly screwed in, it should go about 2mm more toward the center line.

With chain on big ring:


















Chain on middle ring:


















I feel like I just got slimed by Slimer. Hopefully that's a good sign of a nicely lubed chain.

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Maybe I'll be okay? Guess we'll find out soon enough. I can always stay off the big daddy ring until i resolve it if it turns out to be an issue. I've also got some wiggle room on the crank to maybe push it one direction or another. Big spacer on the drive side and a good 5-10 mm pedal clearance on each side.
















On another note, guess I also needed to get rim tape. Went with some wide gorilla tape as the rims are pretty wide at 50mm and supposedly it works great. Spokes are also shipping; only black was available. Oh well, so be it. I just want this thing to hit the road (or trail) already. It might snow this Friday...smh...might be putting these tires to the test on snow before dirt.

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## Rock Surf (Aug 28, 2010)

Nice build! Looks like your frame has three water bottle bolts on the down tube, so can can run the swat box if you wanted.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Thanks! Sweet good idea....dang that's expensive! Lol

So spokes, cassette lock ring tool, and some brass valves this time have shipped. As I await that I'm hitting a point where it's dang, I don't really want to do that (eg run cables, put on some 'copter tape, etc.), so I need to write all this down for myself, and I'm using this as a journal essentially - I apologize. Once this is done, I'll try to turn this into a guide, A-Z if I have the wherewithal.

Todo:
1) Build wheels (spokes to hubs and nipples, nipples to rim, true wheel, rim tape, valve install, tire mount, liquid sealant, mount discs to hubs, mount cassette, retrue?, mount wheels)
2) frame protectors (clean frame, install helicopter tape, possibly purchase install downtube guard, wrap chain stain with innertube or additional tape, wrap cranks with tape, consider mud fenders, install lefty frame guard)
3) Run cables (/facepalm...need some cable housing for the shifter, open the hydraulic brake cables, figure out which holes are for which cables, run them, size them, trim them, remount calipers, adjust brakes/calipers, bleed the brakes, re-adjust the brakes, adjust the shifter, adjust the handlebar position of the brakes/shifter, adjust derailleur)
4) re-tighten and adjust everything, use locktite where appropriate
5) test ride in the snow? :|

Next up the list of parts and tools in case I'm missing anything. Stay tuned, maybe I'll be done by Spring, heh


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## daniel harvey (Jul 23, 2007)

Hey Joseph,

Congrats on your WW. I bought one a few months back to hang my 27+ parts on until my full suss frame became available. I'm not sure the WW is ever giving up these parts. 

As stated, I'm running 27+--LB 50mm carbons with Onyx rear and Hope front hubs.
Spec. Purgatory tires. 

Fox 34 plus fork.

the achilles heel of this frame for me was the 27.2 seat tube, as I must have a dropper. My 27.2 lev is only 100mm and the action is terrible compared to 30.9's and 31.6's. Thomson saved this bike for me. 125mm drop and a great action, so far. (I prefer 150mm drop, but 125 is so much better than 100, and the main thing is that it works predictably and effortlessly.)


Been experimenting with drivetrains. Just installed Shimano 11-42 with Absolute Black 28t oval on RF Aeffect cranks. When my other frame becomes available, I think I'm just going to have to find parts for it, because the WW is here to stay.

I also ran a Sram 1400 double, using the inside 64bcd for my chainring and running a Granny God bash on the 104 spot. This was a great chain line, albeit a bit close to the tire, but I wanted to try the direct mount AB oval I had, so I picked up the RF Aeffect cranks. Great value.

I'm sure it will rock as a 29+, but I love the short geo we get by using the forward drop.
I have a Pike 130 that is going up front when the Fox goes away. I'll be running it with a i35 29er rim and a Surly Dirt Wizzard. The difference in the fork A2C's and the tire diameters are almost a wash, so then I'll be running a 79er of sorts.

I went with a threaded BB because that is what I know. Has worked well.

This bike gives me 120mm Yelli Screamy handling but with a 140 fork, fatter tires, and carbon stiffness.

What started as an experiment has become my favorite bike to date. I'd post a pic if I could figure it out, but it's sunny and I'm heading to the trail.

Happy trails to you,

Daniel


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

Daniel, are you sure that 29er Dirt Wizard will fit your Pike?
I wrote to Jenson support asking about tire capacity of the new Boost Rockshox forks and they measured axle to bridge distance (of the 27.5+ Reba) as being very close to radius of Knard on 50mm rim as given by Surly


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## daniel harvey (Jul 23, 2007)

It fits alright in the house. Haven't put it on my bike and taken to the trails yet. Certainly not a good fit for muddy rides, but if I must ride mud, I'll take my fat bike. I've since dismounted the tire so I'm going by memory, but my biggest concern isn't height, but width. (This is not a boost Pike.) If the tire stretches much it could be too tight. Were I buying a fork for this application, I'd go for another 27.5+ Fox, but I have the Pike and it's a great fork. If I can make it work, I will. So far I think it will be a go.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Ok Daniel that's well and good but where are the pics? This is such a new frame it seems nobody has pics of one complete.


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## daniel harvey (Jul 23, 2007)

Not great pics. Bike is not clean. But here's something at least:

https://picasaweb.google.com/103924498342645180548/20151124


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Awesome 
What type of crank (size) did you use? You said you have an oval chain ring? How are you liking it?

Reading:
First Ride Review: 2015 Trek Stache 9 - Mtbr.com

vs:
Boost Chainline and 1x Boost Chainring Selection ? wolftoothcomponents.com

regarding chain line. I dont have an accurate enough way to measure exactly what mine is, but someone mentioned what it should be above. According to wolftooth, I believe I am right there where I need to be (it's just that I won't technically have enough tire clearance for OEM requirements). We'll see how it goes...


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## daniel harvey (Jul 23, 2007)

Joseph,

I ran 175mm on this frame simply because that's what I've always done. The BB is lower than many bikes, but not lower than my Canfield Yelli Screamy, which has become my template or baseline for hard tails.

The sram 1400 crank is boost 2x and it works well because I use the inside, or 64bcd ring, and put a bash on he 104. The RaceFace Aeffect is not boost, but using direct mount ring and it's a good cl with the AB ring, which is offset 6mm inboard.


I can't tell I have an oval crank. It felt "normal" from the beginning. I have yet to go back to a round crank. Some say that feels weird, but I doubt it will be an issue. I can't tell that I'm climbing stronger, but my pedal stroke feels smooth.

More about the chainline, I like the chain as close to the tire as safe, as I think my riding is biased toward the lower gears, resultantly, I like a straighter cl in my climbing gears. Wolftooth says you should have the chain line slightly toward the higher gears for shifting. I'm sure they're right, but I haven't had issues leaning to the inside.

With the Sram crank there are crank spacers that can be used to micro-adjust, if necessary Not ideal, but doable. In one application I needed a few, with another I was golden without.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Hmm interesting okay. Ty. I like that 2x and bash the second ring idea. Good to hear about the oval ring. I'll let you know how it feels to me once I'm up and running. Ok so I'm a bit less worried about chainline then - there is some wiggle room, an even room for preferance apparently. Finally, thanks about the spacers info. I may hit you up for further info about that.

And without further adieu, it's go time!









Spokes arrived from China. Wheel building, take 2!

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Noooooo! whyyyy!?
















They're not clearing the bend!

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Started a thread in the wheels and tires section for this issue:
http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/spokes-not-fitting-hubs-996717.html
Waiting on Project 321 to respond. Open to advice.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

you can send these back to P321 with a spoke for reference and ask for your money back 
then get some Novatecs, which should work just fine


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> you can send these back to P321 with a spoke for reference and ask for your money back
> then get some Novatecs, which should work just fine


321 ended up being a great help. Ordered some 2.0 mm cx-ray's from them:








I just couldn't send these hubs back...lol...it's go time!

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

so what length are your Pillars and how many do you have?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> so what length are your Pillars and how many do you have?


I got 22x 290 mm
22x 286 mm
44x 288 mm
And 88 silver brass nipples

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Ok so I managed to get both my wheels "laced" up.








It's pretty ugly though. I had a lot of trouble getting some spokes to fit, but I was able to finally get everything connected after preloading the hub over and over.








These crossing spokes (round 3 and 4) were just so much further than the spokes from round 1 and 2 because the initial angles were not acute enough. One of the problems I ran into was the spokes were so far off on some sides that the nipples wouldn't come out of the rim when at rest and kept getting hooked inside. Until now, I still have that some on the rear wheel.








It remains that some of the spokes seem to be way too long (and others too short) and are bowing in order to fit the gap, particularly on the front wheel, although I haven't started really tightening or truing.








Finally, I went with 2 cross over 3 cross per some research and preference of carbon wheel manufacturers. I found though that "lacing" was not really possible because the final (second) cross is occurring way too close to the hub and if I was to go under the second cross, it would pull the spoke way out of its natural position. Instead I've just passed over both the spokes.








Maybe after truing this wouldn't be an issue, but I'm not sure as there is a very clear absence of material on 2 cross wheels and passing instead of lacing. There is literally nothing I can find that speaks of passing on 2 cross.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

In the last photo, does it bother you that the side of the wheel that's up lacks radial symmetry and spokes are at different angles to the flange?

Maybe this can help you remember which spoke goes to which hole: Spoke Pattern Designer - A flash application for designing bicycle wheels lacing patterns.
one side of a 32h, 3x wheel with your ERD and PCD:
(spoke lengths were calculated for 3x, right?)








PS: please post pictures of your wheel w/ tire installed in the Lefty when it's built
curious about the actual clearances and stuff


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Would you be willing and able to get a measurement between the chainstays? Workswell is stating that a 3.0 tire is all there is room for. But on Sobatobikes.com there is a picture of one with 3.5" tires. Seems like Workswell is in the process of a name change. If the 3.5's will fit, I might have to get myself a Christmas present.
Thanks


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> In the last photo, does it bother you that the side of the wheel that's up lacks radial symmetry and spokes are at different angles to the flange?
> 
> Maybe this can help you remember which spoke goes to which hole: Spoke Pattern Designer - A flash application for designing bicycle wheels lacing patterns.
> one side of a 32h, 3x wheel with your ERD and PCD:
> ...


Busy week, but back at it....so yes the asymmetry did bother me, but i figured it would straighten out some as I tightened it up. Also that last picture was actually before I relaced that wheel. Lastly, there is some asymmetry, particularly with 2 cross. The larger the hub gets, the more asymmetrical the angels on the spokes get (some pairs are less or more than others). I used that very cool wheel builder app you sent and it confirmed that for me, thank you, but yea it also confirmed something was wrong with my wheels. I ended up finding that every 2 spokes on each side of the wheel were loose, and every other 2 were too tight, which was also a result of being too asymetrical. So I swapped a spoke on one side for opposite side, and went around doing that for half the spokes and low and behold, those spokes were no longer loose. So I did that with the other remaining 16 spokes and those were no longer too tight! Sweet. I realized in the end what I was doing was effectively rotating the wheel in the opposite direction that I had preloaded the hub. Because I had so much trouble preloading the hub enough, this problem had apparently come up - half the spokes too tight, half too loose, and this fixed it, and now the symmetry looks a lot better. The problem I now have however, is the gap for the valve is in the wrong place :| ....at this point though, I don't care. I just want to get this thing done. I'll still be able to easily inflate the tires. Maybe when I replace the tires down the line or do some maintenance I'll relace the wheels then.



bruto said:


> In the last photo, does it bother you that the side of the wheel that's up lacks radial symmetry and spokes are at different angles to the flange?
> 
> Maybe this can help you remember which spoke goes to which hole: Spoke Pattern Designer - A flash application for designing bicycle wheels lacing patterns.
> one side of a 32h, 3x wheel with your ERD and PCD:
> ...


Busy week, but back at it....so yes the asymmetry did bother me, but i figured it would straighten out some as I tightened it up. Also that last picture was actually before I relaced that wheel. Lastly, there is some asymmetry, particularly with 2 cross. The larger the hub gets, the more asymmetrical the angels on the spokes get (some pairs are less or more than others). I used that very cool wheel builder app you sent and it confirmed that for me, thank you, but yea it also confirmed something was wrong with my wheels. I ended up finding that every 2 spokes on each side of the wheel were loose, and every other 2 were too tight. So I swapped a spoke on one side for opposite side, and went around doing that for half the spokes and low and behold, those spokes were no longer loose. So I did that with the other remaining 16 spokes and those were no longer too tight! Sweet. I realized in the end what I was doing was effectively rotating the wheel in the opposite direction that I had preloaded the hub. Because I had so much trouble preloading the hub enough, this problem had apparently come up - half the spokes too tight, half too loose, and this fixed it. The problem I now have however, is the gap for the valve is in the wrong place :| ....at this point though, I don't care. I just want to get this thing done. I'll still be able to easily inflate the tires. Maybe when I replace the tires down the line or do some maintenance I'll relace the wheels then. For now, I think I'm in good shape, I just need to continue truing 
















With regards to the rear clearance, I'll try to have an answer by tomorrow hopefully, if not even tonight!
In the mean time, this I'd what you're looking at, but it's going to be difficult to really know without the tire in there.








The clearance is tighter on the non drive side, so that will be limiting factor.








It looks to be about 1.5" from the middle of the rim (spoke is offset to left 3mm of center in pic). I'm confident 3.0" tires should fit, but it might be tight. More than that, I don't know. I don't really understand how tires are measured anyway to be honest because a 30 mm rim will create a rounder and less wide profile on the tire than a 50mm will, if I'm not mistaken, so it's difficult to just punch in numbers and know without actually trying. Nonetheless, let me try to get the (3.0") tires on these (50mm) rims and maybe that'll give you a better idea.

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Thank you very much for the pictures. Their rigid fork is spec'd at 106mm and I was hoping the rear would be the same. It looks like it might be a little tighter than that. 

I think I am over analyzing this whole bike choice thing. I have a HT that has been converted to a plus bike but it's tight. I think I want to make that a dedicated gravel grinder / road rider when i go with the wife and get a dedicated Plus bike. Or just get a fat bike. But then I don't think I would use a full 4"+ fat bike that much either. Sorry for going off topic....:thumbsup:


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

It's recommended to lace the braking (leading) spokes with elbows out (heads in) and you did the exact opposite on the front wheel. You can find these recommendations by looking up "shimano lacing pattern"

You would do the opposite on the rear drive side because driving forces are prevalent there, but for the other 3 sides, spokes should be laced to handle the braking forces best

Basically, relace now, gain some more muscle memory  It's fairly easy, even if it takes an hour due to lack of automatism and hand dexterity. In order to get more room for the pump head, start with the spokes adjacent to it

There's a good movie with an easy to remember algorithm, "Mastering the wheel"
UPD: uploaded it: 



The only difficulty not addressed there is choosing the right spoke hole for the first spoke on the other side after you've laced one, but you can use an existing wheel for reference.

Also, my hint after lacing a few wheels would be: do the side with the smaller flange first, cause it's gonna be more difficult the other way around, and when doing the other side, insert the spokes that have heads out/elbows in first.

Rear clearance shot suggests your rim may not be centered in the frame - you might wanna check that. I'd leave truing and dishing to a bike shop, honestly, because they have the tools - just give them the rim's max tension (should be on the mfg. site), spoke specs and ask them to make sure the spokes are tensioned as close to that as possible. Might wanna install/inflate the tire first, though as it'll likely compress the rim a little.

Please post front clearance with the tire on after your wheel is finished.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

BXCc said:


> Thank you very much for the pictures. Their rigid fork is spec'd at 106mm and I was hoping the rear would be the same. It looks like it might be a little tighter than that.
> 
> I think I am over analyzing this whole bike choice thing. I have a HT that has been converted to a plus bike but it's tight. I think I want to make that a dedicated gravel grinder / road rider when i go with the wife and get a dedicated Plus bike. Or just get a fat bike. But then I don't think I would use a full 4"+ fat bike that much either. Sorry for going off topic....


Np...yea after reading through and watching fat bike reviews, I decided it wasn't really for me. I don't intend on much snow or sand riding. The semi-fat/plus sizes attracted me, so here I am....

I got the rear wheel finished, trued, taped, and started to get the tire on. I may need co2 though because I couldn't get the tire to seal while pumping, and I made a mess with the sealant.









Nonetheless, here are some pics of what the clearance looked like (again, 3.0", almost inflated, but not exactly):

















Hth

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> It's recommended to lace the braking (leading) spokes with elbows out (heads in) and you did the exact opposite on the front wheel. You can find these recommendations by looking up "shimano lacing pattern"
> 
> You would do the opposite on the rear drive side because driving forces are prevalent there, but for the other 3 sides, spokes should be laced to handle the braking forces best
> 
> ...


Oh boy....I hope not...lol...there are so many dang videos and tutorials out there , but I found out the hard way some are flawed and others are severely lacking in anything beyond a standard setup...I'll double check tomorrow, because yea if the trailing and leading is off, they're going to snap when breaking  ....I wonder though if the "innies" and "outies" matters that much...I thought I had done it right, but I'll double check again. I would rather of course have everything done correctly and not worry about spokes breaking (the valve in the wrong spot I could live with for now, but yea I lost that when I had to re-lace while it was already laced up and everything got moved over).

I'll check out the video, thank you.

Year rear clearance I'm not positive about. I'll have to get the cassette on to see if it's lined up correctly. Will try that tomorrow as well before disassembling, if I have to.

I was actually able to true like a champ on the rear wheel using the truing addition to my stand...I was pretty surprised...it took a few hours, but I honestly think I nailed it, in all directions....the front wheel, not so much, since it won't fit on the stand and I'm truing it against the suspension. I'll see how that goes after this is all said and done and whether I need someone to do it.

And yes, I'll post front clearance once the tire is on also.

Thanks again man!


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

not going to snap, not right away at least 
but there's some reasoning for that pattern when using j-bend spokes, you might wanna look it up yourself


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

So putt-ing away over here running into more issues.

Think I blew something on my pump. The air won't come out the presta valve hole anymore. I ended up ordering a compressed air pump to get the tire filled as it was just too much to get the tire filled fast enough to seal. Worked well, but I'll I've have to figure out if i can fix the pump later

I figured out how to use those crappy little chain breakers (seriously, someone needs to come up with a better design), but I had measured the chain before putting the wheel on in my boredom and haste, and now I think it's too short (more below). I spent about an hour trying to reattach a link to no avail. I don't think it's possible with this SRAM chain as little itsy bitsy rings pop off when you break it, and when attempting to reconnect them, they just won't stick together anymore (particularly the female outters). I may just go buy another one next week...

When I pedal, the derailleur tail (whatever the lower part with the 2 cogs is called) will kind of kick every 3 or 4 rotations. When on a small gear, it drops off the front chain ring. It won't even reach the big daddy gear, I think because the chain is too tight, but it could be because it hasn't been adjusted yet. I will try to adjust it here soon, but I don't expect to be able to fix these issues without a new chain. Something feels off about the whole thing in general (see below), but it may be the chain and adjustments, I hope...

The rear wheel does seem a bit to the left after inflating the tire. I may have to dish the wheel a little more than how it dished on its own (I never intentionally did anything to dish it). This could also be throwing the derailleur off some and preventing me from getting to the big gear (but I suspect it's still the chain being too tight and/or the derailleur needing to be adjusted). Hopefully I can do this without removing the tire as it is pretty darn close to being centered.

I also tried to slip the brake on but it seems like the disc bottoms (or "tops") out in the rotor before tightening it down. Either I need a spacer or I didn't set it up right. I'll get to that later...

The front wheel I'm still stratigizing on, but it looks like I'll just have to redo the whole thing. I tried swapping laces like I had before, but it creates that some too short and some to loose problem again. I'll probably try to do that tomorrow. This time I may consider "lacing" instead of "passing" if it's possible. I need to find some better pics of 2 cross wheels though to see if this is common.

Anyway, that's it for now!


































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## TuTone T (Dec 12, 2012)

Hang in there Joseph, thanks for posting it all, you'll get there.


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

josephjosephson said:


> I figured out how to use those crappy little chain breakers (seriously, someone needs to come up with a better design), but I had measured the chain before putting the wheel on in my boredom and haste, and now I think it's too short (more below). I spent about an hour trying to reattach a link to no avail. I don't think it's possible with this SRAM chain as little itsy bitsy rings pop off when you break it, and when attempting to reconnect them, they just won't stick together anymore (particularly the female outters). I may just go buy another one next week...
> 
> When I pedal, the derailleur tail (whatever the lower part with the 2 cogs is called) will kind of kick every 3 or 4 rotations. When on a small gear, it drops off the front chain ring. It won't even reach the big daddy gear, I think because the chain is too tight, but it could be because it hasn't been adjusted yet. I will try to adjust it here soon, but I don't expect to be able to fix these issues without a new chain. Something feels off about the whole thing in general (see below), but it may be the chain and adjustments, I hope...


If the ring pops off the link pin, you will need a new pin. The quick disconnect master links work great but you can also get a new breakaway pin to save the chain. Sometimes when installing a new breakaway pin, you have to push it out in the reverse direction just a little bit to relieve tension on the plates to allow it to move freely.

When the derailleur cage (tail) kicks out, watch closely when it happens. It is probably something going on with your chain. If one of the links is sticking or not pivoting like it should, it can do that. You could also try spinning the pulleys with the chain removed just to rule them out.

If it is falling off in the small cog, it seems like the chain would be too long. Or the chainline is WAY off. As far as chain length goes, wrap it around the big cog in back and around the front ring. Do not have it going through the derailleur, find the length needed to make that loop then add two links. Shorter is better.

I find the best way to adjust the derailleur stops is to leave the cable disconnected, then run the derailleur through its range of motion with your left hand and pedal with your right. Once you get the stops adjusted, connect the cable with little to no slack and you should be close.

Take a picture of the chainline and how the derailleur looks in the largest cog you can get it into and maybe we can help some more.

I hope that helps some. If you already knew / tried all that, then post up some pics and hope for the best.

Good luck and thanks for the write up.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

Which way did you install your GXP chainring again, JJ?
offset inboard or outboard?
https://www.absoluteblack.cc/images/_katalog/12/sram_oval_gxp_chainring_4.jpg


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

bruto said:


> Which way did you install your GXP chainring again, JJ?
> offset inboard or outboard?
> https://www.absoluteblack.cc/images/_katalog/12/sram_oval_gxp_chainring_4.jpg


Sram direct mount rings can only be installed one way. The screw holes are recessed and the screws aren't really long enough if it was installed backwards.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

Oh, it drops from the high gears (smallest cogs), not the low ones
Well, -6mm front chainline can do that  -9 if it's not a Boost DM chainring.
Time to get the correct one, I guess (just BB30, not necessarily the one with additional Boost offset)


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

So here we go, and thank you all for the input so far.

Yea the little rings popped off:










I'll look into just buying a pin possibly from a bike shop tomorrow if that might solve my problem, but now I'm not so sure. I'm leaning toward misalignment (hoping that I can keep this crank. Wolf Tooth swears SRAM'S acceptable chain lines is actually off [I'm guessing likely because they have to uphold the minimum 6mm tire clearance for OEM's to use their stuff whereas Wolf Tooth does not] per a link posted a few pages back, so I'm going to try hard to make this work), but let's see what you guys think, that is if anything can be discerned from the pictures.

Chain line in the second to smallest cog (it won't drop into the smallest gear at the moment; I think all the gears are one off as this is shifted into the smallest gear already). It actually did drop from the chain ring in this gear when I first got there:

























This direct mount is from Black something (I forget now) and it does have some concavity to it. It is concave on the inside toward the frame and convex on the outside away from the frame:

















Here is the chain line in gear 6 on the cassette:
















Here's the slack (oval chainring):








Other position

















I believe this was while changing gears up to the larger cogs, but it didn't drop as I pedaled slowly:

















I did manage to get into the largest cog, but it did drop initially here as well.
















It felt like the derailleur was fighting the chain in one direction and the front ring in another








And the chain was not sitting in the derailleur wheels nicely as I went up the cassette to the larger cogs








Here is the chain line at this point:
























Slack








The chain actually fell off the top cog into the spokes, 2 pics above (I was able to reverse the pedals and pick it back up. Fortunately this was at a crawling speed so no damage).

On another note, I think my tire may have lost some air. I'll have to bubble test it later.

















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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

josephjosephson said:


> So here we go, and thank you all for the input so far.
> 
> I'll look into just buying a pin possibly from a bike shop tomorrow if that might solve my problem, but now I'm not so sure. I'm leaning toward misalignment (hoping that I can keep this crank. Wolf Tooth swears SRAM'S acceptable chain lines is actually off [I'm guessing likely because they have to uphold the minimum 6mm tire clearance for OEM's to use their stuff whereas Wolf Tooth does not] per a link posted a few pages back, so I'm going to try hard to make this work), but let's see what you guys think, that is if anything can be discerned from the pictures.
> 
> Chain line in the second to smallest cog (it won't drop into the smallest gear at the moment; I think all the gears are one off as this is shifted into the smallest gear already). It actually did drop from the chain ring in this gear when I first got there:


Judging by these two pictures, it appears that the chainline could be moved inboard some and that would help the large cog issue. If it won't drop on to the smallest cog, and it is going past the largest cog, the stops definitely need to be adjusted. Try adjusting them with the cable disconnected so you know it is on the stop and not being stopped by the cable when it comes to the small cog. The chain appears to be too long too. That can be the cause of the chain coming off in the small cogs. It may also be causing the chain to be rubbing itself at the pulleys when in the small cog. Another thing to look for is the B screw adjustment. The top pulley should be less than a half inch away from the cogs. Check it when it is in the largest cog. Normally that is the one that is closest too.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

So good news, I'm shifting smooth. The chain was dropping on the front due to the powerlink not having been fully clicked in causing it to jump off the front ring. It may have also been causing the jump on the rear pullies. I disconnected the cable and adjusted the upper and lower limits and found both way off. Fixing that prevented the chain from dropping off into the spokes, obviously, as it should have. The cable was way too loose which was preventing me from even getting into the big gear without manually pushing the derailleur. It was also causing the shifter to be one full gear off from where the chain was on the cassette. In any event, it's shifting at about 95% purely from the shifter without any interference from me, and no chain drops. i think there is a bit of rubbing in a few of the middle gears, but I'm now confident I can resolve that with what I've learned and all the help I've gotten here.

Here are the chain lines again:
Big gear
















Middle gear
















Smallest gear

















That last gear is pretty darn tight, although it's not rubbing (while on a stand)








I'm hoping if I dish the rear wheel a bit it will fix this. I'll have to readjust the gears some, but no problem. Worse case scenario, I can get a little plastic washer between the frame and the last cog. There's plenty of flex in the rear triangle.

So it ends up that the chain is way too long (/me fist pump!), so I don't need to do anything to salvage this one. I'll be much more careful next measure (twice) and break (once). This is in the smallest gear/cog:

















Off to work (upstairs) for the night, but I'll try to get the front wheel relaced before morning hopefully. The rear brake is about an inch higher than where it looks like it needs to be. Is the disc supposed to (almost) bottom out in the caliper, or does it actually go through it and stick out the other end? I feel like I got too big of discs (180mm) or I need lots of spacers. Will get to that later. Brakes will be last. I can coast without them around the block and use my feet to stop like when I was a kid lol.

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

I started relacing the front wheel, and it did it to me again for the third time. I knew it going in and fought the wheel, but it won. Every 2 spokes are either too tight or too loose








and the hub is very crooked.








Last time this happened on the rear wheel I had to swap every spoke with the one on the other side of the hub, opposite direction (in/out), opposite leading/pulling. I did this around the entire wheel with every spoke and it straightened out into a perfect wheel, with the only problem being the valve hole was no longer in the right place.








I'll probably have no choice but to do it again because the final 2 spokes will not reach their holes and there's only so much tightening I can do to try to straighten it out before a spoke breaks, unless I loosen every one to its limit before tightening again...maybe I'll try that..

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

Didn't you calculate the required lengths before, with manufacturer's data?
you can verify ERD using a wire or non-elastic thread and something to tie it around
then enter it into the calculator again and how much off you are with these spokes, then it might be fixable with different nipples
Also, are you sure you're using the correct spokes on the correct side?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Ya...I'm pretty sure it's fine. I didn't verify the ERD but the wheel laced up fine before, after the round Robin spoke swap, and same with the rear wheel. I had the hub manufacturer verify spoke lengths for me too. I have a feeling it has to do with how the hub is preloaded. It's very difficult to get it to position correctly off the start because your first 2 rounds are essentially radially laced until the hub is twisted (even if you lace it laying down and angle the spokes, it manages to straighten out some), and by the time you have 16 spokes in, you can't really spin the hub like it needs to be anymore because the nipples get caught in the rim. I feel like next time I do it, if there is a next time, I'm going to screw all the nipples down way more than a few hand turns right from the beginning so they will be protruding from the inside of the hub early on and then I can preload without them getting caught. I know this is against common practice, but I don't see another way at the moment. Perhaps the ERD really is off and the spokes are too long, but once the wheel is done, it doesn't give that impression at all. Oh well, it's not the end of the world, it just requires me to do the entire wheel twice and end up with a misplaced valve hole. Once the wheel is trued, it may allow me to shift all the spokes down to relocate the valve hole, but I'll worry about that at another point. For now, if it's true, I'm happy.


Update: so the loosen every spoke to their minimum worked. I was able to get the hub to loosen up and sit properly in the middle and all the spokes fit evenly now. Maybe I need to do the opposite of what I proposed - make sure all spokes are minimally tightened at first, which is somewhat obvious, and I've done that (or 3-4 turns), and it did not work at all for me. Oh well, whatever. I guess this is part of the "art" aspect of building wheels. It's fairly straightforward, but it requires experience on the finer points of detail. Will post pics later once wheel is on the bike.
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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Update: the loosen every spoke did not work lol. I had to do similarly to what I did with the rear wheel, swapping spokes all the way around yet maintaining the pattern. It wasn't as simple because I couldn't find 2 sets to swap with each other that would not create another tension problem (too tight or too loose), but I managed to get it squared away by moving a good amount of the spokes from 1/3rd of the rim and then deciding what to put where. I'm in the process of truing now and it's coming along swell. I think and hope I got it right this time. I still did not lace but rather passed, but I'm not going to ride it hard right now. I'll research this more latter before taking it to the trails. The rear tire is definitely leaking air so I'll need to figure that out as well in addition to how to space the brakes off the brackets.

















I leave for the weekend tomorrow but I'm hoping maybe just maybe I can take it for a spin around the block tomorrow morning 

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

actually riding a wheel with non-crossed spokes (passed over each other, like you say) would be a mistake
Verify your calculations, use longer nipples if spokes on one side turned out to be 1-2mm short


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> actually riding a wheel with non-crossed spokes (passed over each other, like you say) would be a mistake
> Verify your calculations, use longer nipples if spokes on one side turned out to be 1-2mm short


Yea I've read that it is weaker, but it feels like crossing is not natural on this setup (maybe that's how it is normally). It actually feels like the spokes would be weakened by being bent at the intersection point. I intend to cross them if I can find sufficient evidence that 2 cross carbon wheels are best crossed. I've sat on the wheel with all my weight and I don't think they're going anywhere for the moment, but if it's necessary I will do it.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

There's physical justification for having them interlaced, just search the internet or ask an actual bike mechanic. Whether or not it seems natural to you is irrelevant


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Yea, no I hear you. My opinion is irrelevant. At the same time though, common wisdom on what should be done on a 3 cross aluminum wheel set may not necessarily apply to carbon 2 cross. In fact, 2 cross seems outlandish to many people who haven't really read up on the research; for carbon its actually the preferred crossing pattern. With that said, I was able to get some nice close pics of carbon 2 cross rims that do in fact lace and not pass (see: Skyline 29 Carbon Fiber Mountain Wheels | Nox Composites for example). Nox really provides a nice writeup and provides their sources about the 2 cross vs 3 cross issue: Wheel Building Philosophy and Other Info | Nox Composites.

So with that, yes I need to relace these. I still may try to take it for a spin around the block, but I'm running out of time so that may not happen till next week, which by then, I'll hopefully be motivated enough just to redo the wheel (or the few spokes that ill need to actually lace - half or 1/3rd I assume, but I'll see...brain is getting tired). I'm light enough that my weight distributed across 2 wheels on flat pavement isn't going to stress the spokes. If they were to break, then something else is wrong. Thanks for the heads up and feedback. Rear wheel still needs to be re-dished and it's losing air so I may need to pull the tire off anyway.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Back in town and I had a chance to relace the front wheel. It required moving half of the spokes only, so not too bad. It sure looks weird though - the spokes are all bent.








































I'm hoping as I retrue (and maybe loosen and retighten some of the spokes), the bends will even out a bit, and maybe as I ride that will help even more especially if they settle into the hubs some and maybe even bend a bit at the elbows. It's tough to imagine them ever being perfectly straight though, as a straight line from the outside of the flange to a nipple and a straight line from the inside of the flange to another nipple will not physically intersect but rather simply pass. Nevertheless, if this is how it is supposed to be, so be it! On to truing (getting pretty good at that now lol).

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

if you have no way to gauge tension with any sort of precision, your truing isn't worth jack
take it to a specialist with a tension meter after you're done, for your own sake
it'll cost less than having them build the entire wheel from scratch


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> if you have no way to gauge tension with any sort of precision, your truing isn't worth jack
> take it to a specialist with a tension meter after you're done, for your own sake
> it'll cost less than having them build the entire wheel from scratch


I have a gauge on the way, but for now I'm just "playing it by ear." Whether or not that is the perfect way I already know, but truing in all directions does have quite an effect on equalizing tensions, and the ear plays a complementary role as well. Nonetheless I'll have it gauged more accurately next week.

I finished the wheel as is and got it setup on the bike. It is standing on its own 2 wheels for the first time!








I still have to set the brakes up, but it's getting close 








Thanks everyone!

P.S., here is the clearance on the Lefty, a bit over 5.5"









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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

side tire clearance please?


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

Gosh, I guess I should stop riding immediately and take those wheels I've built--without any sort of tension meter, just by feel--off the road right now. Sure, they've been rolling for several years now, but I'm sure it's going to all go wrong any moment now.



bruto said:


> if you have no way to gauge tension with any sort of precision, your truing isn't worth jack
> take it to a specialist with a tension meter after you're done, for your own sake
> it'll cost less than having them build the entire wheel from scratch


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

Maybe your feel is good, but I wouldn't trust that of a first timer - no more than my own
I've seen how tension can go all over the place after one ride with a bunch of small hits (not even drops, just roots and bumps)


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Some updates:
1) clearance of front tire sideways is about 1.5"








Pic is from middle of headtube not the measurement so you'll just have to take my word for it. As you might be able to tell though, the wheel is not centered; it's about .25" too far toward the drive side, so I'm going to need to dish it, just like the rear one which rubs a tad and is a good .25"+ off center. In other words, the clearance is about 1.25" with the wheel centered. These are 3" tires on a 50mm rim. You can probably squeeze a good 5"+ tire in there without a problem in the world, if I'm calculating right. The rear, no way. it might be possible to get 3.25" in there if lucky, but I almost doubt that. I'll measure that and the front again once I dish the wheels.

2) I was able to get the front brake mounted. The problem was the calipers were just way to far out. I found a few videos that mentioned this in passing, that you need to reset them, and it worked.
Before (pads, then no pads):
















After (no pads):








I messed up here by squeezing the brake lever with the pads out thinking I'd loosen the calipers a bit so I can push them in more and one caliper broke the seal and a 'dot' of oil leaked out. The brake is now uber weak, wont stop the wheel well, and the lever goes to the handlebar when squeezing it. I ended up introducing air into the line and confirmed that with some gurgling making it up the line near to the lever. I have to trim the line and bleed anyway, so no biggie, but that was a learning experience. I didn't realize I just needed to squeeze really hard with my fingers to get the calipers to go flush with the inside mount. I was able to do it properly to the rear one...

3) The rear brake mount is not 180mm direct post mount, or whatever it's called. The caliper is about 10-20 mm too far away from the mount to fit, so I need to figure out what the size is and get the adapters. I believe it's 160mm as Workswell now lists a 180mm and 160mm option for the bracket when you order the frame, but I'll need to figure out a way to double check (or just order a set of spacers good for a few different sizes).

4) The seat post is too long and I'll need to cut it. I'm literally toppling over when I try to mount it. I'm glad I ordered the 17.5" and not the 18.5" though. The bike feels plenty big, but that could be my imagination. I may have to reduce the spacers above the headset and trim the steerer, but I'll do that later after getting a feel for the ride.

5) The rear tire felt like it kept air now, but the front may have lost some. I repumped the front and will check them both out over the next few days. I hope this isn't a new problem that I need to solve, but oh well, I'm learning.

6) The chain is still quite a bit too long. I've read and watched mixed opinions on the best method to measure for the required chain length including SRAM's method as well as others. I'll need to re-dig into this again. I don't want to mess it up this time as I got lucky last time that I had not irreparably cut it too short.

I'm going to try and take it for a quick spin around the block. Don't get in my way if you see me because I got no brakes!

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

If you haven't seen it, take a look at this article from Park Tool. I prefer method #3. And since you have only one front chainring and no suspension to factor in, it's a pretty simple method. Good luck.

Chain Length Sizing - Park Tool


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Great thanks. I may have come across it earlier, but if I did, it got lost in the abundance of information I've been in contact with. It looks good and I will OCD all 3 methods to see what I come up with (before cutting). Thanks!

On another note, I had left the rear brake without pads (or a bleeding block) in the calipers and well....mistake. The pressure from the fluid and the brake just hanging from the handlebars (dispite being wrapped up and bagged) caused a piston to fall out and fluid to drip all over the caliper, the containing bag, and a bit on the tire. Another learning experience lol...I lost a lot of fluid, but oh well, I was planning on bleeding them after trimming the cables anyway so I'll just have to make sure I have enough fluid to fill it up now. Cleaned up and blocked the pistons with the plastic insert that comes new with the brakes and some paper towels folded up around it. Good thing is no fluid got on any pads or rotors 

In better news, I took her for a spin this afternoon (without brakes) and was pleasantly surprised. It rode great on pavement and I really couldn't notice any additional drag from the big tires vs a 26" with really knobby tires, which was encouraging. I was a little worried 29+ might be overkill with some drawbacks but I didn't notice any yet (the fact that these plus tires are not overly knobby may help). It's only my second time even on a 29er and I felt much less overwhelmed by this bike than I did on a regular Specialized 29er about 6 months ago. I think this frame fits me much better as I feel like I can toss it around and have lots of control over it without it feeling like a toy bike. Perhaps the Specialized was too big creating this I'm riding in a Towncar on 30" wheels effect (cool, but not what I want on a trail bike). Additionally the wheels are likely lighter despite being bigger.

I went a bit through the snow as well and it plowed through without issue, but to be honest there really isn't much snow here in Chicago right now; it's ice. And that feels like it'll be a problem on any bike without studs. I felt a little uneasy at higher speeds. The front, despite having suspension, really got bounced around over the uneven ice (formed by footprints on the sidewalk) and the rear spun a little when torquing the wheel as I peddled hard. Sure a fat bike would do a little better, but I surely wouldn't be thrashing on one on this slippery and hard surface through the woods.

I'll see if I can get to the chain tonight and maybe start dishing the wheels. Brakes will wait till next week as I still need to order a bleed kit.

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

I'm glad I used all 3 methods. The calculation and the big cogs method gave me about 54", but the small gear method showed me to be a little bit cautious, so I only cut one link off and stuck at about 56" and it's perfectly fine. I might be able to get by with 55" or 54", but it might be too tight in the big gear and not get an S through the derailleur. As is, there is no sag now in the smallest gear and everything shifts fine (and coasts backwards fine too). Seems perfect. I won't bother trimming shorter unless I experience a problem at this point.

I trimmed the front brake hose. Dang what a mess that was....a lot of little details and tips it'd be good to know ahead of time like have the dang olive, plug screw, and cable cutter like on you when you start unscrewing the cable from the lever because that hose will constantly leak until you get it screwed back into the lever. And the house is not very malleable so it will flick very hard as you try to maneuver it (and fling fluid across the room and on your shirt...). Another lesson learned. Maybe the rear will go better....except I really don't know how I'm supposed to run a cable through a frame that is leaking fluid. Can't wait to do that... 

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## TuTone T (Dec 12, 2012)

This is just getting good JJ, Particularly liked the part where you test ride the bike with no brakes.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

TuTone T said:


> This is just getting good JJ, Particularly liked the part where you test ride the bike with no brakes.


Thanks...the postman I almost hit didn't like it too much lol 

Really hoping this is the week this will get done.../me cues blizzard and 10 degree weather...heh

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## yamaha46 (Jul 17, 2009)

Following with interest as I have a trek stache. Looking good so far. Thanks for posting.
I dished my wheel on the dining table, stacking wood under the rim, then flipping it back and fourth until equal.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

yamaha46 said:


> Following with interest as I have a trek stache. Looking good so far. Thanks for posting.
> I dished my wheel on the dining table, stacking wood under the rim, then flipping it back and fourth until equal.


I guess I wasn't understanding dishing properly. Should it always be equal? Doesn't the rear wheel in particular need to be "dished" to make room for the cassette and the result is that it won't be equal on both sides? Or is there something else that is unequal that accommates for the cassette (ie offset flanges) and when you dish the rim and the edges of the hub should still all zero out? I ended up dishing the front wheel on the bike and am pretty satisfied with it being centered, true, and generally equal and appropriate tension (was a bit difficult on a Lefty, but I McGuyver-ed a setup to do it). I still have to do the rear though.

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## yamaha46 (Jul 17, 2009)

Well I'm no expert. I've only built one front wheel so far. Had to change my hub to the boost size.
But I'm pretty sure the dishing should centre the rim in the centre of the hub. The flanges are offset to fit the disc & cassette already.

Think there was some early fat bikes that had weird offset dishing. But everything else is central.
I'm sure you know about the Sheldon brown site already, check the wheel building section there if you need any guidance. 

Impressed with what you've achieved so far though.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Cool deal. Yes, I'll check his site and read this issue over again. Thanks....yes would make more sense the way you mention it, otherwise dishing tools wouldn't work...

Update: Yeah, so it totally is center over the hub and it is the flanges (+ the potentially offset holes on the rims) that create the dish; the rim is still dead center from each end of the hub/axle. That makes sense.

Video shows a great pic of a wheel "dished" yet centered
Ask a Mechanic: How to adjust wheel dish

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

I was able to mount the rear brake with a 20mm extension kit, run the cables, and bleed the brakes. I took it out for a spin for about 20 min, but it was about 10 degrees out so that didn't last. I guess I asked for that last week...lol... There's a few inches of fluffy snow too so I tried biking straight through a park. I was definitely able to get through it, which was cool, but it took some major pedaling power as snow filled up the tires' tred and they began to squirm a bit. That condition probably called for a fat bike, but honestly I don't see myself biking in the snow like that all too often, especially when it's so cold. I felt like I pulled both my quads by the time I was done.









Running the cables was the hassle I had heard about. I had to run the rear brake cable in the direction from the caliper to the lever otherwise I would've had to remove the crimped portions at the caliper end of the cable, and I don't have replacements for that (plus it just looked like a bad idea). The problem though was that while the entry hole (from rear to front direction) was a hole with a removable cable holder thing, the entry hole was not like that; it was simply a hole just wide enough for the cable (or hose). In other words, it was backwards as to what you find on other frames, and it's impossible to fish a hose out through a hole that small. The string + vacuum trick didn't work either as having the string in hand still did not guide the hose into the hole. I ended up feeding a cut portion of a hose (from the front hose that I had kept) backwards (from the small hole at the bottom font of the chainstay toward the big hole at the rear top of the chainstay), taping it end to end to the hose I was running using packing tape wrapped around them both very tight, then pulling on the old hose effectively pulling them both through the small front hole. Eureka! Can't believe I had to invent a procedure to get this done, but I was thrilled it worked. After that it was very easy as all the other holes were large enough to fish the cables out.
















The brake bleed process was a little more difficult than I expected. The syringes that came in the Avid kit sucked quite frankly and they didn't create the best of seals with their tubes. It was a process trying to pull the air bubbles out of each end of the lines in part because too much pressure seemed to pull air in from outside the tubes, not just from the brake system. It didn't help that I had so much air in the lines either from my earlier hose cutting woes. I was able to get the front brake pretty good, but the rear still feels mushy. I tried to redo just the lever end and it helped some, but it still needs more work. The pads are still rubbing on the rear rotor as well and I was not able to resolve it as of yet. The front is fine though and feels pretty good. I still have to really burn both brakes in though. The rear wheel still needs to be re-done so I'll wait till I do that until I deal with the brake again.

There is light at the end of the tunnel...5 months later, I am now able to ride this bike...or when it warms up at least...

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Did you run full length housing for the rear derailleur?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

BXCc said:


> Did you run full length housing for the rear derailleur?


I did not. The frame holes weren't really designed for that, so the cable is bare inside the frame.


























BXCc said:


> Did you run full length housing for the rear derailleur?


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

josephjosephson said:


> I did not. The frame holes weren't really designed for that, so the cable is bare inside the frame.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


That is what I thought. I ran a full run through mine. The removable guides are pretty simple to drill. I found that an 11/64" ( i think that is the size i used) allows the housing to go through but it is a snug fit. The only part of the frame that I had to drill was where it entered the chain stay. Luckily, that is a metal insert that is bonded into the frame. When I drilled it, aluminum shavings came out. In the hopes of not screwing anything up, I found the largest bit that would fit in the existing hole, then went up one size to start and stepped it up from there. I'm not sure if I will regret this later but it was pretty straight forward. I would give the warning though that if anyone is reading this and they are NOT mechanically inclined, you may want to keep it the way it is designed.


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## yamaha46 (Jul 17, 2009)

Have you got the same frame? 
Can you post up some pictures. I have a trek stache so I'm interested how these framed compare.


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

yamaha46 said:


> Have you got the same frame?
> Can you post up some pictures. I have a trek stache so I'm interested how these framed compare.


I do. Any pictures in particular? 
The geo numbers are pretty close. Chainstays are a bit longer (but still shorter than most 29ers) and the head angle is 1 degree steeper. I chose this over the Stache mainly because I like building bikes from the frame up as a winter project. I'm not sure if it will work out to be cheaper but it will be built the way I want it and it will be carbon. Resale on the "chinese direct" frames isn't very good though. But then again, giving away a used $500 dollar frame is still better than loosing 50% on a $2000 name brand carbon frame.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Yea let's see some pics. Is it a 29+ also? Did you go with ican? I forget, maybe you posted here waaay back when I started this thread.

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

I also went with the Workswell frame. I like the option of using 29+ or 27+. I have another one of their frames that I have been very happy with. Right now I have most of the parts on hand except for the brakes which are in transit and the wheels which I am still undecided on. 

If this was strictly a summer trail type bike, it would definitely be 27+ with 35ish mm internal rims. But since this will see more winter riding and I already have a nice trail bike, I'm thinking 29+. Not sure which rims I will go with. If I go with what you have, Joseph, the 50mm rims, I would get the most volume and probably be a touch better in the snow. But if I go with the 42mm version, I have the option of running a standard 29x2.3 tire, and they would fit on normal 29er's if I ever decide to sell them. And since my bike budget is at about $2.37 right now, my wheel and tire dilemma is irrelevant. I did pull the wheels off of my SC 5010, install some WTB Trailblazer 27.5x2.8 tires, then throw that setup on my other HT. So that will suffice for now.

I will try to get some decent pictures tonight. Fork, handlebars, rear derailleur and housing, BB and crankset is all that is installed right now.


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## yamaha46 (Jul 17, 2009)

I think the choice between 27+ and 29+ is the same as with The standard 27.5 vs 29er.
Yes the + sizes are bigger diameters but having found I prefer 29ers for all riding over 27.5 I predict it will be the same with the 29+.
I have a Stache 5 with a suspension fork. Wheel size feels great to me for the trail. But lots prefer 27 over 29 so it just depends on your riding style and preference. I prefer the stability and easy speed of the big wheels. Though i've yet to try a 27+, so would like to try.
I'd like to see the pics when you have your bike built up. I was interested in the frame but i'm unsure of the tax/import fees if I got it here in the UK, so a bit of an unknown.


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Sorry but this is all I have for tonight. I was trying to install the brakes but I ran into a snag. There is something in the chainstay that is not allowing the brake housing to pass through. I am going to bring the frame to work tomorrow and crawl in there with the borescope to see what is up. Hopefully it's nothing major and I can break it up with a long bit. As you can tell from the pictures, I'm going with green for this build.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

BXCc said:


> Sorry but this is all I have for tonight. I was trying to install the brakes but I ran into a snag. There is something in the chainstay that is not allowing the brake housing to pass through. I am going to bring the frame to work tomorrow and crawl in there with the borescope to see what is up. Hopefully it's nothing major and I can break it up with a long bit. As you can tell from the pictures, I'm going with green for this build.
> 
> View attachment 1042715
> View attachment 1042716


Awesome. Almost did green myself but settled with red (need to swap the seat and grips though). Look forward to seeing it up and running. I took mine for about a 10 mile spin through some neighorhoods yesterday. Was fun, but boy is my butt sore. First upgrade - saddle. My rear brakes are still mush and the rear wheel off, but I've got 0 degree weather this weekend that should afford elme the chance to get that figured out. Gl and hf with yours! I love seeing someone else build up something similar.

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

So I found the issue. There is some glue or bag remains that is in the way. Here is a picture so you can see what I have. The borescope screen is rotated so the image is mostly vertical and the red arrow runs along the bottom of the CS going forward. Luckily I was able to use some 12" drill bits and enlarge the existing gap enough to pass the hose through. And after all that, I was feeling very good about the process and satisfied that the hose was routed and no damage was caused. And then it hits me, like an idiot, I forgot to run the hose through the cover plate first. So out it comes. I will try again tonight and hopefully it goes through smoothly. It only took about 5 minutes once I got the gap enlarged.

Sorry for the hijack, just wanted to share the issue for others.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Hah, wow, sweet. Do you work at a gastrointestinal doctor's? Cool though, please share. I have 2 things left to do this weekend so this thread is close to done. It'd be nice to compare experiences on the same frame and some similar parts.

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Hooray for me! I won! Only the battle with brake hose's, not the powerball. Everything is run and i should do some more assembly tonight. If it's ok with Joseph, I can keep adding my build progress here or I can start a new one. Mine will probably be wrapped up this weekend except for the wheels and decals. I thought about getting some boost adapters from eBay so I can run my current 27+ wheels and tires for now but that takes $50 from the new wheel fund. 



josephjosephson said:


> Hah, wow, sweet. Do you work at a gastrointestinal doctor's? Cool though, please share. I have 2 things left to do this weekend so this thread is close to done.


Nope, no doctor's office for me. The paycheck of one would be nice though. I attempt to fix helicopters everyday.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Ok, because that tool looked like something you'd stick down someone's throat lol.

Glad you won. Feel free to post. Floor is yours! I'm curious how decals etc will make the bike look. Mine is quite bland. Not stressing it, but I am contimplating what to do in the future (paint, plastidip, decals, nothing)

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Made some progress tonight. Here is where I'm at, just need some wheels.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Any updates?!

On my end, I finally got my bike out to the trails...








...and it was a bit muddy. The trails sucked, but it was fun. Most of it was a sandy, mushy gravel and the tires gripped so much of it that it felt like I was riding in quick sand. I was exhausted after the first minute, but pushed on nonetheless.

Everything worked pretty good. I redid the rear wheel and it's now laced properly, dished about even, true, with tensions within reasonable tolerance. I even got the valve in the right spot this time . The rear brake is still a bit mushy, but not horrible. There is though some play in the steerer I'm having difficulty getting rid of. I'm worried the headset bearing isn't fitting flush in the frame or something. I'll spend a little time messing with it this week. Lastly, I had a little trouble shifting while riding at some point. Either it needs its first "tune up" or I had a lot of mud in everything (or both). I wish I could give a review of the frame, wheels, etc., but the trail conditions were just that bad that it was near impossible to tell. Maybe next time.

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

josephjosephson said:


> Any updates?!
> 
> On my end, I finally got my bike out to the trails...


Nice! What do you think of the wheel tire combo as far as width goes?

No major updates on mine. It still sits in the stand. I did add some more green to it and I've decided to add a bit of orange too. I was going to order some rims from XMCarbonspeed.com but they were out of stock until after the Chinese new year. So I am on hold for a bit longer. Also, the LBS told me they can't get the orange Hope Pro4 hubs until mid February so that is another hold up. Which is fine actually as it puts that major purchase off for a bit.

But back on to rims, I am still undecided on which width to get. I will be getting the same model as yours but either 50mm wide or 42mm. The general consensus is that it appears to be personal preference. I would probably prefer the 50 as it is a similar ratio to the rim / tire combo I have on the 5010. But..... The 42mm would allow me to run it with a standard 2.35 tire if I choose to and some seem to prefer it for summer trail riding. Decisions decisions.

And one last thing, My wife got tired of me calling it the chubby bike and said I should name it. So "Muffin Top" it is.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

xmcarbonspeed are just one of many merchants selling those rims
you can find them on ebay (seller jason-zone, for example) or at yishunbike/asiancyclexpress
the price varies, but they appear to be the same rims
if anything, Yishunbike touts superior manufacturing technology as their advantage - could be an open mold

if the price seems excessive to you at any point, there's this option: Ben's Cycle - ALEX MD50 29 Plus 29x3.0 Rim 32h Black
the cheapest tubeless 50mm rims there are, weigh the same as Scrapers or Hugos

also, why Hopes? Is there any reason to think the front hub is better than any other (like a decent Novatec)? And the rear one is known for a weak freehub with a weak small bearing


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

I chose XMcarbonspeed because of Peter's reputation and price. I've purchased from Nextie and Workswell / Sobato. All 3 have been great. Peter's price on the rims are similar to the various eBay sellers. I do agree that these are probably one of the open mold rims as most sellers offer them. 

As for the hubs, I like Hope for their value. It was between Hope and i9. But I can't bring myself to pay $175 for a front hub just to have a matching set. Maybe someday when disposable income is higher. $90 i can handle as it isn't much more than Novatec's or BHS hubs. But realistically a front hub is a shell, 2 store bought bearings, and axle and a couple end caps. Not much rocket science involved in front hubs.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

exactly
so $100 a piece appears to be a bit much 
there's nothing about Hope's engagement mechanism which would justify the asking price for the rear hub, either
if you do not want anodization at any cost, then Boost Novatecs are the best offer on the market right now at about $120 per set


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

bruto said:


> exactly
> so $100 a piece appears to be a bit much
> there's nothing about Hope's engagement mechanism which would justify the asking price for the rear hub, either
> if you do not want anodization at any cost, then Boost Novatecs are the best offer on the market right now at about $120 per set


Now you're just adding to my indecisiveness! :thumbsup: 
I was debating about DT 350's too then doing the Bontrager 54t upgrade. I need to decide on rims first then I'll be able to properly over-analyze the hub choice.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

save on rims, hubs & tires, spend on spokes & nipples
makes the most sense, srsly


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

I'd search the fatbike forums for Novatec hubs. I was looking into a Motobecane Lurch fatbike for my wife and the amount of rear hub failures was alarming. That might be something all together different, but if you have the time, it might he worth a gander. I can't imagine there being anything more involved than replacing a hub except maybe replacing a frame.

In terms of what I think about the wheel tire combo, it's pretty no doubt. It rides like a monster truck around the block, but in the sand pit yesterday it wasn't all that wonderful (though even a fatbike would have been nothing but tiring and muddy still, even if it road a bit better).

In terms of 40mm vs 50 mm, I have no clue. Being able to run a 2.35" seems like an interesting benefit from the 40mm, if you still can run a 3.0". I got my rims from jasonspeedzone and have been very pleased with them. They're light and rigid as heck (if that's what you're looking for) at a reasonable price with fast shipping.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

links to hub failures please?
I heard of the old (A2) freehubs cracking under monstrous torque, but they've been superceded by a sturdier design in newer hub models (and you can always use steel ones for ultimate durability)


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

bruto said:


> links to hub failures please?
> I heard of the old (A2) freehubs cracking under monstrous torque, but they've been superceded by a sturdier design in newer hub models (and you can always use steel ones for ultimate durability)


Novatec probably puts out more hubs than most "bling" hub manufacturers so their failure rate is probably pretty good compared to hubs in service. I have some Hope Pro2 Evo hubs now and have had zero issues with them. They fall somewhere in the middle of Novatec / Chosen / Bitex hubs and the elite level i9 / Project 321 / Chris King hubs. That being said, I will probably stay with Hope unless something changes between now and the end of the month.

For the rims, I'm a fan of carbon rims and I really can't see spending all the money on spokes and labor just to want to have them rebuilt to carbon rims down the road. I will just wait a couple weeks and get what I want versus what will work just fine for me. :thumbsup:


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

found the thread with all the Fatboy rear hub complaints, by the way
that's a different model than the Boost one, with a thinner axle and smaller bearings
sounds like a bad idea in general to make a 190mm QR rear hub with 12mm thick inner axle, none of the aftermarket thru-axle hubs are made like that

The only thing elite about i9 is the price tag and I guess the brand appeal
Switched from cantilevered design to generic one with smaller bearings and calling it an upgrade? Looks like cost cutting to me
Industry Nine ? Torch Hubs, Ultralight, Enduro and Gravity Wheels - Mtbr.com

CK's sticking to their design atleast, although Novatec makes cantilevered design now as well, but the Boost version of it is not available yet as far as I know


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## pleonhardt (Nov 5, 2005)

Enjoyed your write-up! Thanks for taking the time and also for being totally honest about all the issues encountered. Have fun riding your new bike!


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Joseph, any updates on how it rides? mine still sits in the stand waiting on wheels.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Ah man :|

Pretty good so far. It's only hit the trails once because it remains snowy, cold, wet, or not warm & sunny enough to dry up the trails. I've taken it out on the roads a handful of times and it's pretty great. It's feather light, although I don't have a scale. I lightly rode into a ~10" curb and the bike bounced up and over my back as I landed on my feet with the handlebars at my thighs breaking the plastic saddle in the process. Point being, the bike flew and I could tell how light it really was at that point. I doubt it broke 20 lbs with the big wheels, but it's close.

After my first ride on the trails, the rear shifting was way off. I couldn't exactly figure out why or how it happened, but I had to replace the cable entirely and setup the rear derailleur from scratch and it shifts great again. At this point it's still difficult for me to tell when I'm having shifting problems what exactly is causing it and what needs to be adjusted, but it seems like the cable might have been stretched some (although I interepreted the results pointing toward it being shorter actually as I couldn't get into the outside gear, but anyway. ).

The other issue I'm running into is the brakes are a bit of a pain. There is like a 1% or less margin of error when setting them up, and even giving the final torque with a torque wrench on the caliper bolts moves them enough to make the discs rub. Also, the discs are ever so slightly bent and I'm reluctant to just replace them as I feel like the problem is beyond that as I often get a constant khhshhhhhh as they touch the pads meaning the whole adjustment is off. Makes me wonder if XT brakes would've been easier to setup - squeeze the lever, tighten the bolts, let go, and you're done. The Avid's don't seem to self set like this.

I also tried riding up a big hill at a park and the bike had tremendous traction, as should be expected. I had to be conscious of leaning forward as the front end was starting to lift up, e.g. the rear was transferring all the torque into the ground without slipping.

With that said, I'm feeling a little unfulfilled because of the weather here and lack of close trails, but that's not the bike's fault in the least. I'm also wondering how it would've been to build a carbon full suspension fat bike that takes 29+ wheels (noe available), but I'm still happy. Maybe next bike I'll do that, if I don't decide on something more road oriented.

Finally I want to do a little more to color the bike up by accenting red with the saddle, perhaps the grips, and then maybe a new red stem (or red handlebars and keep the black stem and grips). I've taped up the rear stays with black electric tape instead of getting a tube to guard them, or at least the drive side stay. It's cheaper tbh, lighter, and blends in. Not sure about the level of protection, but I don't need a ton. The chain probably hasn't hit the stay once.

Enough from me. Get us some updates soon! It's almost riding season 

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Sorry to hear the weather is cooperating. Our winter here has been pretty bad for snow. This is all I've got so far. The rims have been ordered and I got the same as yours. The RM950C from XMCarbonspeed and hopefully they will be here in a couple of weeks. I also decided on orange Hope Pro4 hubs which should be here this week. I hope to be riding it by the end of March. We will see if the weather allows for it though.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Nice nice! Good luck with that. Love the picture too. Where are you located? Is that a custom paint job  ? I wouldn't mind doing something like that, especially as I wait for better weather....in the mean time, I think I'll go ride around the block in the cold damp night lol...

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

I'm in central Maine. That picture was a couple of weeks ago when we actually had snow. And no on the custom paint. Just some vinyl decals. I had the words made for me then the rest was just using some bulk vinyl stickers and I would cut them to fit. I've since added some to the fork and some orange ESI grips. Hopefully I will be happy with the final product.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

BXCc said:


> I'm in central Maine. That picture was a couple of weeks ago when we actually had snow. And no on the custom paint. Just some vinyl decals. I had the words made for me then the rest was just using some bulk vinyl stickers and I would cut them to fit. I've since added some to the fork and some orange ESI grips. Hopefully I will be happy with the final product.


Awesome. So something like this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0033...cker+sheet&dpPl=1&dpID=41luCDAwWXL&ref=plSrch ?
And you cut this to fit around the head tube up front? Pretty impressive - looks great.

Cool, I work with a fellow up in Maine who bikes, Eric (since Maine is a small town where everybody knows your name...).

Had to replace my saddle as I busted the old one in a pseduo almost couldve been a crash and got a red one. I'm thinking about doing matching colored grips also (red), some red pedals, and maybe a red stem (but I need to get out and ride more off road to really know what size I need). I'd like to get about picture of our bikes together when they're all done 

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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

josephjosephson said:


> Awesome. So something like this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0033...cker+sheet&dpPl=1&dpID=41luCDAwWXL&ref=plSrch ?
> And you cut this to fit around the head tube up front? Pretty impressive - looks great.
> 
> Cool, I work with a fellow up in Maine who bikes, Eric (since Maine is a small town where everybody knows your name...).
> ...


Yes something like that. I am not sure exactly what it is because the owner of the sign shop just cuts a bunch off of the roll for me. Check out the ESI grips, I have them on all the bikes in the house. Even the wife's and kids bikes. I did a mock up of the decal with paper first to get it close. Then used a straight edge on the actual decal to cut it. Once it is on, you can use a new razor blade and just push down on the decal and cut it. No need to slice it and scratch the frame. 
Bring the bike on over to Maine, riding season is just about here! Of course my rims still haven't arrived. Supposedly they will be shipped on Monday. The hubs are here though and those look pretty good with the orange and green on the bike


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Joseph, do you happen to remember the ERD of your rims? I'm trying to determine spoke length for some Hope Pro4 hubs. Thanks


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Yep, 595 mm (see top left of pic)

Here is my collage I put together when building wheels. I had someone at Project 321 actually recommend 2 cross for carbon btw. I don't think its that big of a deal, but I did research it some and decided to go that route. There definitely isn't a consensus though, but some manufacturers do opt for 2 cross over 3 (and some 3 over 2). 3 is probably easier to lace, but I did a lot of weird things on this bike so I figured why not.









I also had 3mm offset holes, and learned the hard way about getting powder coated and too wide spokes (see earlier pages). I ended up with CX Ray's and P321 Hubs, but I needed a Lefty hub and wanted it to match the rear which was pretty difficult to do.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Awesome, thanks. I'll have to come up with some designs and give that a try.

ESI. Will check out tonight.

Maine, wow....bit of a haul, but lets see. Let me get out on my trails first 

With that, I actually messed up my headset. I had some play (not sure if this had any effect) so I removed the steerer, suspension, stem, etc. and found the bearings were rusting on the outside of them. I took them both out and broke up the bottom one in the process (rusted anyway so wasn't too concerned), so now I have to get a new one...which has been a bit of a process. I didn't realize there are so many dang sizes (dude, seriously, what is up with the 25 different standards for EVERYTHING on a bike)...will post later on it and my findings. May order one tonight. Also realized I'm missing a bolt on my Lefty brake mount which is why the front brake keeps going out of alignment (the whole bracket is twisting). Trying to find a bolt right now before I spend $40 on a bracket with the two bolts.


Looking forward to seeing everything. Hey, if you have a scale, I'd love to see some weights (I spent so much on this bike I never bought a scale lol).

GL!


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Thanks for the wheel info. I wanted to verify the actual ERD as my last pair of chinese carbon rims were a little different than advertised. What weight's are you looking for? Just a finished build or something specific?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Np. My rims had the raised portions around the eyelits so be careful. These are the manufacturer supplied numbers, but I had no issues with spoke length (once I struggled through the lacing process like 15x...)

For weights, maybe a finished build and maybe a wheel too once it's all tired up and all. Kind of just curious what my bike weighs and if the wheels are the major weight on it. Eventually I'll get a scale and/or go to a LBS to see, but I'm seeing all these bikes online anywhere from sub 20 cross country bikes to 40+ lbs fat bikes and I'm wondering where this falls. I'm going to guess low 20s for sure.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

if you can do a one-armed front raise with your bike without injuring yourself, it's not heavy 
that's my test anyway

with that said, each 29x3 tire weighs around 1 kg and no amount of carbon elsewhere can offset that


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

josephjosephson said:


> Np. My rims had the raised portions around the eyelits so be careful. These are the manufacturer supplied numbers, but I had no issues with spoke length (once I struggled through the lacing process like 15x...)
> 
> For weights, maybe a finished build and maybe a wheel too once it's all tired up and all. Kind of just curious what my bike weighs and if the wheels are the major weight on it. Eventually I'll get a scale and/or go to a LBS to see, but I'm seeing all these bikes online anywhere from sub 20 cross country bikes to 40+ lbs fat bikes and I'm wondering where this falls. I'm going to guess low 20s for sure.


So it looks like our wheels should be pretty similar in weight. Same rims and almost identical spokes. I went with DT Swiss Aerolite which is pretty much the same as CX Ray spokes. Listed weights are the same. Only difference is roughly 120 grams in hub weight as I went with Hope Pro4 hubs. I'll keep you posted as things come in and get weighed. I'm not a weight weenie but I am definitely "weight conscious" and weigh most items when I get them. The frame was around 1325 grams with BSA bb option if I recall correctly.


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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

Hi,

Is notice your using the 29+ frame from workswellbikes. Did you also look at the 29+ from edge design and ican bikes? And if so, why did you pick the frame from workswell over the frame from edge. I'm looking to built a 29+, but cannot really decide which frame to use. And offcourse TREK sells the stache frame only also.

best regards,

Ruud


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## daniel harvey (Jul 23, 2007)

rboersma said:


> Hi,
> 
> Is notice your using the 29+ frame from workswellbikes. Did you also look at the 29+ from edge design and ican bikes? And if so, why did you pick the frame from workswell over the frame from edge. I'm looking to built a 29+, but cannot really decide which frame to use. And offcourse TREK sells the stache frame only also.
> 
> ...


I chose the Workswell because I could get the BB I wanted, and because I liked the Trek copy raised chainstay on just one side. Been a great frame so far. Running it 27.5+ front and rear, as well as 29+ front/27.5+ rear.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

^same, exactly
I looked at the Ican but chose the workswell for those 2 reasons. I'm not familiar with the edge design one. I liked the trek but couldn't pass on getting a carbon version for half the price.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

this is the Edge: PHANTOM Specifications | EDGE DESIGN
looks very similar to the WW, except for the rear dropouts, but no idea where it's sold


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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

LaMere Cycles Custom Carbon Bicycles built one with the edge frame. And they come one size larger then ww. I'm 1.96. 93cm inside legs.


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

I went with the WW frame for a couple of reasons. One was that I already had a different WW that I was very happy with. I also like the BSA bb's and the ability to switch between 425mm and 440mm chainstay lengths depending on wheel choice. So far I have been happy with it but it still hangs in the basement/bike shop as the rims just shipped the other day.


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## jja (Jan 14, 2004)

bruto said:


> this is the Edge: PHANTOM Specifications | EDGE DESIGN
> looks very similar to the WW, except for the rear dropouts, but no idea where it's sold


The geometry specs on that are really weird (hopefully a mistake) -- much shorter stack on the largest size, giant seat angles, chainstay must be 650b length, hard to tell if there's really a dual dropout 29+ option. I only comment because the fork axle-crown of 506 is shorter and more reasonable for using 3rd party forks without significantly steepening the headtube angle than is WW's 530.


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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

I'm having trouble finding complete wheelsets (12x148 rear and 15x110 front). I found the sun ringle 50sl. But the rear 148 is out of stock. Also having some doubts about going with sram or Shimano. The last one now has a boost 148 crank available in their new xt8000 lineup. sram x1 1000 and sram gx-1000 are boost 148. Any opinions about that? Or is it just taste and how much you want to spend?


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

rboersma said:


> I'm having trouble finding complete wheelsets (12x148 rear and 15x110 front). I found the sun ringle 50sl. But the rear 148 is out of stock. Also having some doubts about going with sram or Shimano. The last one now has a boost 148 crank available in their new xt8000 lineup. sram x1 1000 and sram gx-1000 are boost 148. Any opinions about that? Or is it just taste and how much you want to spend?


Wheelsets - What is your budget?

Cranksets - I would go with any Sram / Truvativ crankset that has a removable spider. GXP is great with BSA bb's and there is a plethora of 1x ring choices. The only difference between boost and non-boost Sram cranks is the amount of offset the ring has. I have had good luck finding X0 carbon cranks for relatively cheap and then selling the 2x or 3x spiders to help offset the cost of the 1x ring.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

rboersma said:


> LaMere Cycles Custom Carbon Bicycles built one with the edge frame. And they come one size larger then ww. I'm 1.96. 93cm inside legs.


Sent the question to Edge directly, they sell Phantom at $1000 shipped to US, fork is another 240 (but you can use the Chinese one, they seem identical geometry-wise)
so not a bad discount off Lamere's asking price
Still significantly more than WW/Dengfu/etc, but better details and finish too


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Compared to 400-ish for the WW, that sounds like a bit of a premium. WW will custom paint your frame for a reasonable price too I believe.

I ended up using a BB30 XX1 crank that I got at a great price. It has the larger Q factor so it nicely "wraps" around the chainstays without issue. The chain line too ended up to be perfect too. Check the earlier pages for more info on it.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

It does have superior manufacturing technology (read the site, the frames are true monocoque) and design (WW, ICAN, CS-527 all look uglier to me)
Whether it's worth the price is up to the customer - the guy above didn't mind paying extra for Lamere's rebranded Edge, for example


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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

What material do you use to create custom decals on the frame. I just want white letters, but cannot find anything anywhere how to do that.


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

bruto said:


> It does have superior manufacturing technology (read the site, the frames are true monocoque)


??? Aren't all bikes the same when it comes to "monocoque"? If I recall correctly, an eggshell is a true monocoque construction as it has no openings and doesn't have any reinforcements. All the loads are placed on the external skin of the egg. Unless I am missing something, all bikes need the same openings (head tube and bottom bracket) and would be similar in construction in terms of monocoque or semi-monocoque. Now if it has braces and reinforcements in areas than that would be different but those are normally on metal bikes.



rboersma said:


> What material do you use to create custom decals on the frame. I just want white letters, but cannot find anything anywhere how to do that.


Honestly I am not sure what the material is. The guy at the sign shop where I had the GKARTA logo's made let me buy some bulk vinyl. It's not very thick though which I was worried about at first. But I have had the same stuff on my other Workswell frame for awhile now and it has been holding up great.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

BXCc said:


> ??? Aren't all bikes the same when it comes to "monocoque"?


not everyone makes the whole frame at once, which is the true monocoque
https://www.google.com/search?q=car...1XIKHTU-D_cQ_AUICSgD&biw=1819&bih=959#imgrc=_


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

bruto said:


> not everyone makes the whole frame at once, which is the true monocoque
> https://www.google.com/search?q=car...1XIKHTU-D_cQ_AUICSgD&biw=1819&bih=959#imgrc=_


Ahh. I see what you're saying. Making some of the lugs first then wrapping the tubes to the lugs as a second process versus everything the first time. I was thinking "true monocoque" in the traditional definition of all the stress is on the external skins. I think true monocoque and "as close as a bike frame can get" true monocoque are a little different.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Weird. Didn't think they could make these in steps like that...oh well, not gonna stress it. At 160 lbs in the Midwest I can't imagine breaking frame due to overstressing it.

Search amazon for vinyl sticker paper. I think that's it

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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

I'm 190 lbs. I think I'm going for the EDGE frame
Found https://doityourselflettering.com they have 3m vinyl lettering. That's do. I just want white text, no fancy colors.
About the rims. I'm thinking about the velocity blunt 35mm. They can carry 2.3 till 3.2 inch tires. That way i'll just have to swap tires when the seasons switches over. Instead of having multiple wheelsets. Anyone have any idea if these rimm can be ridden with 3"at low presure (13psi), or wil the tire fold in tight curves?


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

I've read them at the Velocity rims are a bit soft and not super durable. The WTB Asym i29's on the other hand have been getting great reviews. They are a bit narrower but 1.5mm isn't much of a difference. Easton has the ARC 30's and 35's too


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Interested to see if we can convince Edge to bring the prices down. At $1000 I'm not so interested, but at $750 I might be.

I think this is the same frame that On One was testing. http://forums.mtbr.com/26-27-5-29-plus-bikes/one-carbon-plus-proto-990221.html#post12552226


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

buy a hundred, you'll probably get a good price


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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

Yes that's what I want to build. But then as a 29+.
only 29+ suspension forks I can find are the manitou magnum and the very fancy leaf carbonara. Are there anymore out there with 15x110? (except for lefty, where i would need a special hub/wheel).


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

the new Reba works, Walt reported on it here
check bike24.com for both Magnum and Reba, btw

Upcoming X-Fusion McQueen 27.5+ appears to have the clearance too, if my visual analysis is correct (measured arch clearance in pixels using a photo from their site, scaled the numbers using the axle length as reference)

see for yourself:
https://fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/2...-magnum-27-5-29-fork-impressions-29-forks.jpg
and https://www.xfusionshox.com/images/products/2016McQueenRCHLR/2016-McQueen-RCHLR-1.jpg

McQueen at NAHBS with a 27.5 wheel and a WTB Bridger:
https://brimages.bikeboardmedia.net...ueen-275-plus-suspension-fork-prototype01.jpg
https://brimages.bikeboardmedia.net...ueen-275-plus-suspension-fork-prototype04.jpg
certainly seems to be enough room for a 2cm higher tire


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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

Thanks for the info. They sell the magnum for a good price. Now I have to edit my xls sheet again


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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

Oh well, it'll take 2 to 3 month before the frame will arrive, so in the meantime maybe some extra forks will enter the market.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

like RST?  yeah they have one, but you probably don't want it
and no plus forks from Suntour so far

wouldn't expect the street prices to go down significantly before fall
Maybe McQueen will cause Manitou to start asking a little less for Magnum
Or maybe X-fusion will price theirs even higher


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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

http://forums.mtbr.com/26-27-5-29-plus-bikes/2016-fox-29-fork-984094.html

that should also fit, but doesn't come cheap.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

well it was on the photo collage I posted
but if you were ok with a fork at that price, you wouldn't be asking about others, right? 
you can get a new-ish Lefty for less with hub and conversion steerer, so f**k Fox


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

So my wheels were finished the other day. Same rims, similar spokes (DT Aerolite), brass nipples, and Hope Boost hubs came in at 1872 grams. I'm pretty happy with that considering the size. Joesph, if you didn't weigh yours, you could probably subtract 40 or 50 grams for having the Project321 hubs. Just in case anyone is interested.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

BXCc said:


> So my wheels were finished the other day. Same rims, similar spokes (DT Aerolite), brass nipples, and Hope Boost hubs came in at 1872 grams. I'm pretty happy with that considering the size. Joesph, if you didn't weigh yours, you could probably subtract 40 or 50 grams for having the Project321 hubs. Just in case anyone is interested.


Awesome thanks! Not too shabby. Full weight on the bike is pretty dang impressive too (per your post in the 29+ thread). Glad it all came together so nicely. Looks awesome. Provide us with some initial impressions after a few rides 

Weather still is horrible here in Chicago (typical week: 60 rain, 30 snow, 65 sunny, 35 snow)...so I'll save what I got until I can hit the trails again.

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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

Anyone already have some experience with this wheelset?:
https://www.dtswiss.com/Wheels/MTB-Wheels/XM-1501-Spline-ONE-1

30mm rim is what I want, so I can switch between 3" and 2,3" tires. That way only need one set i figured.


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

rboersma said:


> Anyone already have some experience with this wheelset?:
> https://www.dtswiss.com/Wheels/MTB-Wheels/XM-1501-Spline-ONE-1
> 
> 30mm rim is what I want, so I can switch between 3" and 2,3" tires. That way only need one set i figured.


I run 30mm internal rims on my SC 5010 with 2.35 tires and wouldn't want to go any lower. If you want a wheel set to play with both tires, I would probably go with an internal width around 35mm. I put the WTB Trailblazers which are 2.8 on paper but measured 2.5 on my 30mm rims on my HT and it was good but not ideal. Personally I would prefer a 2.35 on 35's more than 2.8's on a 30.


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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

2.35"is fine to. I based my findings on the following pdf;
https://www.dtswiss.com/Resources/Tech-PDF/Tire_Pressure_Dimension


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

cross post: http://forums.mtbr.com/26-27-5-29-plus-bikes/chinese-carbon-29-frames-987511-3.html#post12582171


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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

*Finished my 29+ build*

Hi,

I finished my build a month or so ago. And I forgot to post. So here it is.
Phantom edge frame
velocity blunt rims with industry nine hubs
sram gx group
sram xx1 grip shift (gx grip was to cheap)
Edge carbon bar and seatpost
hope stem
selle smp saddle
vittoria bomboloni tires (3inch)
Shimano xt8000 brakes
manitou magnum pro 110 fork


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

how's the frame in person?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

rboersma said:


> Hi,
> 
> I finished my build a month or so ago. And I forgot to post. So here it is.
> Phantom edge frame
> ...


Better pics!

Just getting around to really putting some mileage on mine. Will eventually do a write up here on impressions and overall building experience.

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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

*better pics*


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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

What do you mean? If I like it? It rides like a rocket. 20 min faster on the same 41 km I did om my old 26".



bruto said:


> how's the frame in person?


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

would be interesting to compare its stiffness to the Workswell's side-by-side


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> would be interesting to compare its stiffness to the Workswell's side-by-side


Sweet, nice pics!

Wait this isn't workswell? Lol, looks absolutely identical 

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

not really, take a closer look


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> not really, take a closer look


Looks like a "carbon copy" to me...maybe just a thicker meeting point of the stays before the dropouts

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

such a keen eye, JJ  surprised you didn't install the Lefty backwards on your bike

there're more visible differences than that, one might be inspired by the other but it's more likely that they both borrowed cues from the Stache 29+ and then went their separate ways.
down tube shape, every single tube junction are different
not to mention sizes  (makes no sense to produce a copy of another frame in different size and have to spend on totally new molds as a result)


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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

The workswell has a different geo. Also bb etc are different. I went for the edge frame because the 21"frame size fitted my body length better (1m96). This frame fits me perfectly. I guess i was lucky, since it's always a bit of a gamble. although i did two month of research.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

WW comes in 20" now too, with ETT/reach pretty close to yours
Edge looks prettier, though


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## rboersma (Mar 20, 2016)

it's twice the price, so it should..


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

here's mine, by the way


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

What a great read!!

I've been looking at the WW frame quite a bit, and your write up really has inspired me to pull the trigger and build up one of these. If you did it all over is there anything you would do differently? 

Curious how those of you that opted for the rigid fork like the way the bike turned out. Has anyone rode one of these side by side with the Trek Stache?


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

bruto said:


> such a keen eye, JJ  surprised you didn't install the Lefty backwards on your bike
> 
> there're more visible differences than that, one might be inspired by the other but it's more likely that they both borrowed cues from the Stache 29+ and then went their separate ways.
> down tube shape, every single tube junction are different
> not to mention sizes  (makes no sense to produce a copy of another frame in different size and have to spend on totally new molds as a result)


Lol Cmon now....I put this thing 95% together without a mechanic. I'm not that bad....yea there are some differences for sure, but they don't look all that significant...guess it depends on a lot of factors as to how significant they are and whether it's worth the price difference based on those.

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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Fusionstarcraft said:


> What a great read!!
> 
> I've been looking at the WW frame quite a bit, and your write up really has inspired me to pull the trigger and build up one of these. If you did it all over is there anything you would do differently?
> 
> Curious how those of you that opted for the rigid fork like the way the bike turned out. Has anyone rode one of these side by side with the Trek Stache?


Glad you found it helpful/inspiring. I have some updates I'll try to post soon, but I'm in the process of moving so it may have to wait till mid September.

Hmm what would I do differently....I've been really intrigued about all these fat bikes converted to 29+ rides. With the amount of money I spent building this, I would maybe consider having it double purpose with 2 sets of wheels on a fat frame. Sure it would affect the chain line and crank, which I think detracted me from the idea in part (I probably assumed there were more component differences than there really were, that the wider Q factor would be an annoyance, that the bike wouldn't handle as well, and that the frame would be more expensive, which is was by a little), but it's clearly doable and it may not be really all that different than a dedicated 29+ (there's a whole thread here dedicated to it that I follow).

Also, I'd consider going full suspension, again in part because I spent a lot on this for it to be a hard tail. Granted for my region (Chicago), it's pretty perfect being just a hard tail, and it's probably quite a bottle rocket for a cross country bike tbh, even with plus wheels, but I've never even ridden a full suspension and just would love to try and even have one (if they're as cool as they look). There aren't exactly many options for 29+ full suspension (Lenz Behemoth I believe and a Waltworks custom option), but neither are carbon, which I really wanted, and both were more than I wanted to pay (even though I paid more than they would've cost, but I did get many top components). There are though some full suspension fat bike options, however, that fit 29+ wheels, and in fact a Chinese carbon one just got released and is somewhere on this forum. I'd definitely consider that if I was to do it again.

I'd also consider probably going again a little cheaper on some components. I don't know what exactly, but I ended up spending way too much on this bike. I love the fact that it's a great bike, and I learned a ton building it, but it came at a cost.

I'd also consider saving money and putting some of that toward a road bike. I'm just too far from "mountain" trails to put a mountain bike to good use. I don't like riding on busy streets, but there are some pavement trails in my area that I'd probably ride a bit more if my bike was a little better suited for that.

Finally, I feel like my Maxis Chronicles are not that good in even semi muddy conditions, I'd like a dropper post if they weren't so dang expensive, I'd like some wider and lighter pedals, and I want to highlight the bike more with red accents if possible; it's just way too plain for me right now.

Otherwise, the bike is still pretty rad, but I simply don't have enough experience with other bikes to draw differences between them. It's a blast when I get to ride it, and I feel like I can push it pretty darn hard, but really wish I had more trails closer to me.

Good luck with whatever you decide, feel free to post here and seek whatever help can be provided. I'll post some new pictures and updates next month. At some point, I'd like to write up a sort of builder's guide if possible.

Take care!

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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

One more thing. Getting kind of confused here with where to buy the workswell frame.

I have been looking at this one on Amazon, but I don't want it with the decals. I contacted the seller and they told me that they are not WorksWell. Not sure they understand when I'm asking for it without decals. They keep asking me if I want it painted black. 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EMVP098/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A34JHRZYUEH9ZW

What is even more confusing is that this same Soboto bikes has an amazon account and is selling these. In the auction their contact for skype is Workswell1. 
New UD Matte 3 0" Tyres Hardtail Frame 27 5ER 650B 29er Plus MTB Bicycle Frames | eBay

I reached out to Works Well via email on their website, and they are quoting $666 with frame, fork, and shipping but they want a bank transfer for payment, which sounds a little sketchy to me.

Any recommendations? Its really hard to communicate with them because of the language barrier.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Fusionstarcraft said:


> One more thing. Getting kind of confused here with where to buy the workswell frame.
> 
> I have been looking at this one on Amazon, but I don't want it with the decals. I contacted the seller and they told me that they are not WorksWell. Not sure they understand when I'm asking for it without decals. They keep asking me if I want it painted black.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EMVP098/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A34JHRZYUEH9ZW
> ...


Yes, those are probably all 3rd party sellers. I contacted them directly as well, but didn't get the best price that way. I bought it from "sobatostore," and from what I understood, that was them directly. Either way, I got it at a great price - normally $510, and they would drop the price 5% to $459.80 every other week. I messaged the guy and asked him to put it on sale and I'd buy it, and he did. I bought ebay gift cards with my AMX at a grocery store (6% cash back), and bought it on a day with like triple or quadruple Ebay bucks. Think about the bottom bracket before ordering. I'd steer far clear of PF30. BB30 was okay, but I'd probably reconsider it now and go with something threaded that I could find more cranks in stock at good prices. I found what I wanted (below) at a good price, but it took a lot of searching, and I needed to get a mechanic to put in the bearings. I almost ruined my frame trying to press them in myself.

Also of interest might be "speedcarbon11" for hookless 29er 50mm 25mm deep carbon rims for $342 + $60 for two, "pushys" for the Maxxis Chronicle exo 120's for $94.04 +$21.16 shipping for 2 out of Australia, and brand-house-products for my Avid Guide brakes 180mm x 2 ($335), derailleur, shifter, chain, and cassette all xx1 ($655.99 + $8.99). I also got an xx1 crank (bb30, 170mm, 168Q - I wouldnt go any lower on the q factor or it may not clear - which was not easy to find at a decent price in stock) from planetcyclery.com for $214.95, which was pretty killer; no one else had that. I also got all (bought 68) my CX ray black spokes from Project321 for $173.73; I bought 2 hubs from them so they gave me a 30% discount on these. I got the Supermax from a guy on ebay, barely used, for like $650 I think....anyway, if you need any help with any of it, feel free to shoot me a msg or post here; a lot of the guys on this thread were very helpful.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

there're threaded pressfit bottom brackets out there
so your 24mm or GXP crank will fit any shell period
and you won't have to gouge your frame with a rusty screwdriver

on a side note, JJ's sense for savings is impeccable
ask for a discount on a Chinese frame, then splurge way more on Leftys and XXs and P321s - that's the spirit


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks for the reply. I'll go with the BSA Bottom Bracket, I have a brand new Shimano XT M-8000 Crank set that I just got a few months ago for my aging 26er, and will transplant to this new bike.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Cool. What's the q factor, if you know? I can measure the clearance if you need.









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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

I just spotted this... seems like a good price to pair with the WW frame. Thoughts? Might be better than a rigid carbon fork, but not sure. I'd love to get your opinion.

2017 Manitou Machete 32 Comp Boost 110 29 Plus Mountain Bike Fork Trek Stache | eBay


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

it's only half a step up from RST
get a Magnum (from bike24.com, for example)
or a Reba: https://r2-bike.com/ROCK-SHOX-Suspensionfork-275-29-REBA-RL-SA-120-mm-Boost-tapered-black-2016
both come with a pump, too, unlike this Machete


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

buy his wheels instead if you're building the thing: 2017 Sunringle 29 Plus Duroc 50 SL Boost 110 148 TLR 6 Bolt Wheelset Stache | eBay
these Duroc rims are not that much heavier than carbon but it'll save you quite a bit of money for other components


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks for the tip! Trying to do this on a budget so those might work really well.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Well, sad news (for me). My garage was broken into and my bike was stolen. Just found out. If anyone can point me to a few places for how to proceed it'd be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

police + one of those craigslist alert apps? think of other places it could be attempted to be sold at and search those too
granted, your bike is unbranded, but you can search for lefty and chronicles
would help to have the frame/fork serial numbers written down somewhere or have any other proof of ownership


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

BIG BUMMER 

Good Karma coming your way!


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Ty. Going to pd department this afternoon. Never heard of a craigslist alert app but will check it out. Will be calling all pawn and bike stores in like a 50 mi radius. Didn't even think to get a serial number off the Lefty. I'll try the guy who sold it to me. Does anything else have a serial number that might be on the box it came in, like a crank?

Thx for the help

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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

So sorry to hear about the bike... really terrible news. I hope you are able to track it down. 

An update on my end here, I ordered the Frame last night, ended up talking to the soboto guy for a few hours via messages, and picked up a 15.5" bsa frame for 485 shipped. I tried to talk him down but that is as low as they would go. a bit better than they had them listed for tho (510) It seems like they are shifting to a new name, or maybe its sourced from the same place the works well frames come from. The geometry (and photos) were Identical to the works well site. 


Already have the drivetrain, shimano XT M-8000(derailleur, shifters, crankset) 1x10 from my current bike, as well as carbon bars.

I need to figure out a few more things now.



Wheels
Fork
Brakes (going with Shimano XT hydraulic brakes)


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

you can try for this, FusionSC: RockShox Reba RL 29er 27 5" 29" 100mm 15x110mm Boost thru Axle Solo Air | eBay

it fits, kinda: http://forums.mtbr.com/26-27-5-29-plus-bikes/rockshock-reba-boost-27-5-29-fits-29-a-997538.html
just don't go too high, cause it's available for the equivalent of $445 shipped, new with all accessories

and thanks for not taking that Machete 

as far as wheels are concerned, those Durocs from Trek Stache I mentioned earlier, were a really good deal
You can try asking the seller if he's going to relist them: 2017 Sunringle 29 Plus Duroc 50 SL Boost 110 148 TLR 6 Bolt Wheelset Stache | eBay
otherwise, your options start a $90 per rim (Halo Vapour 50) and about $100 per hub set (Novatec/Powerway/Bitex/etc., you could get Sobato to send you a pair with the frameset)


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

I asked him if he will relist, no response yet. I was looking at that reba. what do you mean by it fits kind of?


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

less clearance than with dedicated 29+ forks
a problem only if it's gonna see sticky mud


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

wont see any mud. I dont like to ruin trails. Any tire recommendations? was thinking the Chupacabre's but not too sure.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

get 1 of each and mix them  chupa, bomboloni, wtb ranger, chronicle
bomboloni works for me, but all I do is XC type riding


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

bruto said:


> less clearance than with dedicated 29+ forks
> a problem only if it's gonna see sticky mud


Is there a general rule of thumb as to what 29er forks out there will clear a 3 inch tire? Slim pickings right now for the Rebas and Magnums. I have been searching forums but not finding a lot... maybe im looking in the wrong places.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

dedicated 29+ forks like magnum and machete (and the new RST, I guess) have plenty of room
some 27+ forks like reba and fox 34 also fit, but tighter
x-fusion mcqueen may have to have its arch ground down a bit to fit 
there're topics on this very forum with pictures of these with wheels installed

then there're the inverted forks like rs-1, revel, lefty, duc32, which certainly fit


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

How about this? just popped up on Ebay.

Rock Shox Reba RL 29er Tapered 100mm Travel 15mm Axle New Take Off | eBay

Seem like a good deal? Just want to make sure that something like the Chupacabra's will fit ok.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

it wasn't Boost, so it would only fit with this mod: https://vikapproved.wordpress.com/2014/04/13/rockshox-reba-rlt-mods-for-29/

upd:
Magnum Comp is quite dumbed down from the Pro, but at half the price it's a good fork nonetheless
Manitou Magnum Comp 27 5 29" 120mm Travel Boost 110mm Spacing | eBay


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

bruto said:


> it wasn't Boost, so it would only fit with this mod: https://vikapproved.wordpress.com/2014/04/13/rockshox-reba-rlt-mods-for-29/
> 
> upd:
> Magnum Comp is quite dumbed down from the Pro, but at half the price it's a good fork nonetheless
> Manitou Magnum Comp 27 5 29" 120mm Travel Boost 110mm Spacing | eBay


Ok going to bid on that Magnum comp. wish me luck! Thanks for all of the help on this!!

Now to pick out some wheels...


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

check PM


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

Wow that was fast... Frame arrived today. Looks really nice. My auctions for the fork and wheelset end tomorrow night. Ordered some Chupacabra tires today as well. I think I have everything I need now.

Just out of curiosity is there an easy way to feed my brake cables thru the frame? They arrived already filled and bled, so I'm guessing I'll have to take them apart and get fluid all over the place to run the lines thru the frame?


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

Look for plastic hose plugs in the box
My Maguras had them


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Brake Lines...Enjoy THAT process.


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

It's pretty straight forward. Check out this thread for some basic directions.
Internal cable routing in 6 easy steps


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

Well I won the wheelset for a pretty decent price...

Lost the Magnum Fork... I didn't bid high enough... In retrospect I should have bid about 350 to guarantee a win... but I didn't... so the fork search continues...

I'm thinking I might just bite the bullet and get a Reba. this seems like a good deal.

New RockShox Reba RL Fork 29 27 5 100mm Boost 15x110mm Tapered Black | eBay

Would the reba be compairable to the Magnum comp, or a step above/below?


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

no luck finding your bike, JJ?
thought it'd stand out in classified ads, with Lefty and plus wheels


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## scrapmetal57 (Sep 18, 2012)

Man that is some awful news! Other sources might be to post on local subreddit page, or ebay...
Good luck


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

BXCc said:


> It's pretty straight forward. Check out this thread for some basic directions.
> Internal cable routing in 6 easy steps


Help! does the rear brake cable exit the chainstay and run ouside around the bottom of the frame, and then back in on bottom, or am I supposed to snake it thru around the bottom bracket inside the frame somehow?


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/exbvukxu39blqbe/IMG_1946.jpg?dl=1
is there even a hole from the BB shell into the left chainstay?
Although, I think the bend would be too tight even if it's there


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## BXCc (May 31, 2012)

Fusionstarcraft said:


> Help! does the rear brake cable exit the chainstay and run ouside around the bottom of the frame, and then back in on bottom, or am I supposed to snake it thru around the bottom bracket inside the frame somehow?


If you are starting from the caliper and moving forward, it enters just in front of the caliper and then exits on the bottom of the chainstay. it re-enters the frame on the bottom of the down tube. I will post some pictures in a bit.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Ty. None yet. I've been trying to monitor CL and ebay. I didn't think about reddit but I'll try that. I've called some stores, but this happened at a bad time (moving, trip out of state), so I haven't been able to dedicate the time to making calls that I need to. Hopefully tomorrow....it's definitely not a bike that flies under the radar, but if it was a pro job, they may just piece it out :|

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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

bruto said:


> https://www.dropbox.com/s/exbvukxu39blqbe/IMG_1946.jpg?dl=1
> is there even a hole from the BB shell into the left chainstay?
> Although, I think the bend would be too tight even if it's there


Thank you. And by the way I love the mountain bike community you guys are a huge help. Got the rear cable routed easy peasy once I saw bruto's photo and BXCc's instructions.

THANKS!


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

Something interesting that I have done with several of my bikes...I take two pieces of paper the size of an index card and write my name and a phone number with a statement of this bikes ownership and roll them up and place one up the bottom of the seat post and the other down the seat tube. You never know if that might be the proof someone needs.


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## josephjosephson (Aug 19, 2015)

Very clever
Next bike will also have a tracking device :|

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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

Finished my build today. Thanks again for all of your help!


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## TuTone T (Dec 12, 2012)

Looks like a fun bike. Is it just the camera angle or does it look like almost no clearance
on that magnum arch.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^^ Certainly not too much clearance.


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

TuTone T said:


> Looks like a fun bike. Is it just the camera angle or does it look like almost no clearance
> on that magnum arch.


yep almost no clearance... which surprised me since everyone says the Magnum forks have lots of room... This particular model was off a 2016 Specialized Fuse (according to the seller anyway) I hope this won't cause issues in the future. Hopefully I can take it to a trail today and see how things go.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

there're 27+ and 29+ versions of the Magnum, Fusion, which is evident from looking at the product page @ Manitou site
Fuse is a B+ bike. Do the math 

btw, yours looks alot like my bike.. after my seatpost snapped in half and I had to slam the remainder all the way down and ride it out BMX style


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

to be fair bruto you linked me to the same fork earlier in the thread! was going off of your expertise! 

I think it will be ok. if not I'll break out the dremel.


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## bruto (Nov 23, 2014)

my bad! 
I'm curious, though, if the offset difference between 27 and 29 forks is noticeable to a layman like you or me
please report your observations!


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## Fusionstarcraft (Aug 17, 2016)

I have never ridden a 29er before so I don't really have anything to compare. I did notice that the distance from the tire to my feet is pretty close... I actually rubbed a bit when turning around on a side walk. I might adjust my clipless pedals to move my toes back a bit, not sure if that would be because of the 27.5 fork though, or is just something that happens with smaller frames and larger tires.


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