# Ebikes are getting people fit. Good article.



## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

https://apple.news/Arp1I3HgIT3WC9aFRanZkKA

Pretty interesting read. The short version is emtbs or ebikes keep riders interested to do more rides, thus not having to go full gas every ride and reach burnout or hit too many walls. I personally don't have this issue with mtbs, but some do. They are a great tool to get people out of the house and riding. I see two major advantages to ebikes.

1) The overweight or out of shape rider. Gets them back in the game.
2) The experienced, fit rider. Adds another layer of enjoyment to explore farther and enjoy more trail.

I'm talking class 1 pedelecs.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Plus they get more people out on the trails...people who would like to be out there but might not have the stamina due to age or injury. It's a potentially large group of people. As the technology and attitudes mature over the coming years, e-bikes would appear to have a bright future.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Cuyuna said:


> Plus they get more people out on the trails...people who would like to be out there but might not have the stamina due to age or injury. It's a potentially large group of people. As the technology and attitudes mature over the coming years, e-bikes would appear to have a bright future.


👍 absolutely. Time is everything.


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## fleboz (Apr 22, 2015)

They aren't for me, but I am glad my friend has one. Without it he wouldn't be riding and his health wouldn't be improving so quickly. The are currently in the market to buy his wife a townie, whatever gets people out i'm all for. The other advantage for me is when i have friends that come to town, we call the "vacation bikes". They enjoy it and i dont have to take time off my bike just because friends are visiting.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

fleboz said:


> They aren't for me, but I am glad my friend has one. Without it he wouldn't be riding and his health wouldn't be improving so quickly. The are currently in the market to buy his wife a townie, whatever gets people out i'm all for. The other advantage for me is when i have friends that come to town, we call the "vacation bikes". They enjoy it and i dont have to take time off my bike just because friends are visiting.


Right on 👍. We take them on the beach all the time.


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## saltysteve (Jun 28, 2018)

Interesting. Ive been seeing them more and more but never understood what the point was. Whats the starting price tag?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

saltysteve said:


> Interesting. Ive been seeing them more and more but never understood what the point was. Whats the starting price tag?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Depends if you want to convert an existing bike or buy oem. Also, like everything- quality and there's junk. Ebike or emtb? The ones I've owned are quality production bikes from proven manufacturers with excellent suspension. 4-8k. Not to say you can't find value for less. I'm a bike junkie and my bikes are usually high end. But hey, still way cheaper than my MX motorcycles used to be.


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## ruthabagah (Jun 4, 2018)

Good read


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Even we are a bit skeptical.

Sincerely,

Pokemon Go, New Year's Resolutions, Dr.Oz, and Kirstie A.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

saltysteve said:


> Interesting. Ive been seeing them more and more but never understood what the point was. Whats the starting price tag?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I did my conversion for less than $1000. It's so freaking hot in my garage right now that I don't want to finish it tho lol. If you are on a budget you can do it for as little as $600, mine with the battery and hub wheel was around $750, not including zip ties, torque arms, etc.

I always wanted one since I heard about e-bikes, but the main reason I'm converting it is that I simply do not like the geometry of a 26" bike. It does OK downhill but my 27.5" is better for everything, EVEN road biking. Everything. So I'm like OK I have a backup bike that I ride just to get it out of the garage. It therefore was an excellent candidate for a conversion, so that I have a real reason to ride it now.

The point for me is that there are a lot of 1000-2000 ft mountains out there within 10 miles of me that are not so easy to pedal up. At all. A lot of loose dirt, steeper sections, etc., and it just turns into an epic ride (and walk) that I don't really have all day for. I've learned there is a big difference between a mountain and a hill, even if their elevation is similar. I can walk/climb an 800 ft hill in less than 45 minutes. A 1000 ft real mountain could take hours. An e-bike will let me climb right up that mountain without spending 1/2 the day doing it.


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## Abox (Feb 27, 2004)

Cuyuna said:


> Plus they get more people out on the trails.


That's what this sport is missing.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ok, hoping we can keep this thread just a discussion.

I do not want more people out on the trails where I ride. Just like golfers do not want more people out on the golf course they have to play through, tennis players don't want to have to wait for a court to be available, hunters don't want more hunters in the woods, swimmers would prefer not to have to split lanes, etc. Where you are, maybe there is room for more people on the trails but that's not necessarily true everywhere. Just like ebikes were great in big Chinese cities until there got to be too many. 

But I imagine this article is talking about ebikes on pavement. I'm not surprised that getting some exercise is better than getting none. I'm all for ebikes on pavement and on some trails.


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## ruthabagah (Jun 4, 2018)

chazpat said:


> Ok, hoping we can keep this thread just a discussion.
> 
> I do not want more people out on the trails where I ride. Just like golfers do not want more people out on the golf course they have to play through, tennis players don't want to have to wait for a court to be available, hunters don't want more hunters in the woods, swimmers would prefer not to have to split lanes, etc. Where you are, maybe there is room for more people on the trails but that's not necessarily true everywhere. Just like ebikes were great in big Chinese cities until there got to be too many.
> 
> But I imagine this article is talking about ebikes on pavement. I'm not surprised that getting some exercise is better than getting none. I'm all for ebikes on pavement and on some trails.


Good points.

I honestly think that we won't see more people on trails.... All the folks I ride with, are long term riders, who just happen, for whatever reason, to decide to try an ebike.

They are the same folks, with the same skills. True, we may see new riders try EMTB, but as we all know, it takes a lot of work and skills to get on trails. 
What we may see, just like in Europe, are OHV / Jeep trails closure, and the same trails converted to EMTB / MTB access only. I know a bunch of LM around here in CO that would LOVE to stop jeep access on the land they manage. (Jeep access = pollution, transforming the NF / BLM in shooting gallery, illegal dumping, forest fire... in their word).


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

chazpat said:


> Ok, hoping we can keep this thread just a discussion.
> 
> I do not want more people out on the trails where I ride. Just like golfers do not want more people out on the golf course they have to play through, tennis players don't want to have to wait for a court to be available, hunters don't want more hunters in the woods, swimmers would prefer not to have to split lanes, etc. Where you are, maybe there is room for more people on the trails but that's not necessarily true everywhere. Just like ebikes were great in big Chinese cities until there got to be too many.
> 
> But I imagine this article is talking about ebikes on pavement. I'm not surprised that getting some exercise is better than getting none. I'm all for ebikes on pavement and on some trails.


Where I live, that's a short-sighted view. So many people on this site yammer about access. Over the last seven years here, the more people using the trails, the more grant money is available, more trails get built, more access. And more money gets spent in the surrounding communities. Everybody wins. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but then I don't live where you live. It must be a lot different there.


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## ziscwg (May 18, 2007)

Gutch said:


> https://apple.news/Arp1I3HgIT3WC9aFRanZkKA
> 
> Pretty interesting read. The short version is emtbs or ebikes keep riders interested to do more rides, thus not having to go full gas every ride and reach burnout or hit too many walls. I personally don't have this issue with mtbs, but some do. They are a great tool to get people out of the house and riding. I see two major advantages to ebikes.
> 
> ...


You forgot 
3) the injured experienced rider who cannot ride much like he/she used to


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Cuyuna said:


> Where I live, that's a short-sighted view. So many people on this site yammer about access. Over the last seven years here, the more people using the trails, the more grant money is available, more trails get built, more access. And more money gets spent in the surrounding communities. Everybody wins. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but then I don't live where you live. It must be a lot different there.


I think there is something to this. The Govt. is ignorant until people start showing up over and over again at the community meetings and demand access. In my city the military even allowed limited access on the edge of their base (although they may take that away soon). So anything is possible. As long as there is no destruction of wilderness area/pristine land, then access is possible if enough people ask for it. It is our country and our land after all. I'm all for preserving the environment but most of these closed areas already have trails on them to begin with, same difference.


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## slowpoker (Jun 4, 2008)

I coulda rode longer with chazpat if I had an ebike. :ciappa:


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Wow! The all-powerful cosmic eBike. Redefining reality, one mind at a time.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Cuyuna said:


> Where I live, that's a short-sighted view. So many people on this site yammer about access. Over the last seven years here, the more people using the trails, the more grant money is available, more trails get built, more access. And more money gets spent in the surrounding communities. Everybody wins. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but then I don't live where you live. It must be a lot different there.


That's all fine and Groovy until your trails get "loved" to death.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

ziscwg said:


> You forgot
> 3) the injured experienced rider who cannot ride much like he/she used to


Totally agree. Also days that you are stressed for time, Don't want to go full gas on your Mtb etc..


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slowpoker said:


> I coulda rode longer with chazpat if I had an ebike. :ciappa:


No, your battery would have died, then you get left lugging!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> Where I live, that's a short-sighted view. So many people on this site yammer about access. Over the last seven years here, the more people using the trails, the more grant money is available, more trails get built, more access. And more money gets spent in the surrounding communities. Everybody wins. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but then I don't live where you live. It must be a lot different there.


It is here.
The Guvment doesn't build trails or hand out money to help. Almost everything is built and maintained by volunteers, mainly bikers. Unless the new crop of trail users is willing to get out and work, they just add more work onto the backs of the current volunteer force.

Just demanding access and saying "I pay taxes" doesn't fly around here; ask any moto/ATV rider. They've been trying it for decades and getting nowhere.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Totally agree. Also days that you are stressed for time, Don't want to go full gas on your Mtb etc..


A bicycle works fine too. I just go for shorter rides, don't go full gas, etc.....


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

If you lived in a population of 1,000 people and had 15 mtbrs, how many trails would you have versus 100,000 population and thousands of cyclists? More is more! (Given you have land to expand)


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> A bicycle works fine too. I just go for shorter rides, don't go full gas, etc.....


I concur.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> Wow! The all-powerful cosmic eBike. Redefining reality, one mind at a time.


lol, at least you have a sense of humor about it. Sorry, humour.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

Gutch said:


> If you lived in a population of 1,000 people and had 15 mtbrs, how many trails would you have versus 100,000 population and thousands of cyclists? More is more! (Given you have land to expand)


Don't try to use logic on people with fixed opinions. Waste of time. Like the moderator on here that thinks singlespeeds can stroll up steep mountains, and thinks there is absolutely no difference between a 26" and 29" tire, etc. It doesn't matter how much experience and skill they have in riding, they are just plain wrong about some things but will never, ever, listen. It would be too much of a blow to their ego to actually reconsider their opinions.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> Don't try to use logic on people with fixed opinions. Waste of time. Like the moderator on here that thinks singlespeeds can stroll up steep mountains, and thinks there is absolutely no difference between a 26" and 29" tire, etc. It doesn't matter how much experience and skill they have in riding, they are just plain wrong about some things but will never, ever, listen. It would be too much of a blow to their ego to actually reconsider their opinions.


I take it you're talking about SHMF and you are greatly exaggerating.

check this thread:

http://forums.mtbr.com/singlespeed/...ti-trail-ellijay-ga-1083629.html#post13757177

I have recently received a number of posts calling me "fast". Maybe I'm fast for a 54 year old weekend warrior. This is largely because I am lightweight with naturally strong legs and good conditioning (I am also a trail runner). This allows me to climb faster than a lot of riders, but not all and especially not true racers, I still get passed plenty. I occasionally ride my SS. That event is near me. But no way I could ride those trails in the mountains the 35 mile route, even on my geared bike. And those guys are going to do it on single speeds and in pretty quick time. Point is, single speeds can certainly be ridden by some where you nor I would be able to manage, just like on a geared bike.

And no one says there is no difference between 26" and 29". All that has been said is that you can ride a 26" anywhere you can ride a 29". I rode my 26er two days ago, 71 degree head tube angle, mechanical discs brakes, no dropper. My 29er would have been a bit better as these trails had lots of momentum sucking big roots and rocks but my 26er has better tires for this trail so maybe not.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

SHMF imo a very reasonable rider. Certainly understands and has been in the game awhile. His sons a ripper also!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Thanks fellas - right back at ya. 



richj8990 said:


> . It doesn't matter how much experience and skill they have in riding, they are just plain wrong about some things but will never, ever, listen. It would be too much of a blow to their ego to actually reconsider their opinions.


Of course experience matters. And you are once again very very VERY confused between what is an opinion and what is a fact. It's great that you're enthusiastic, but you have a habit of wildly overestimating what it is you think you know. You simply haven't ridden enough places, enough times, on enough different bikes with enough different people to really know what you're talking about. I've been buried in all sorts of biking and building for almost 30 years now; you tend to pick up a few things in that time.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

richj8990 said:


> Don't try to use logic on people with fixed opinions. Waste of time. Like the moderator on here that thinks singlespeeds can stroll up steep mountains, and thinks there is absolutely no difference between a 26" and 29" tire, etc. It doesn't matter how much experience and skill they have in riding, they are just plain wrong about some things but will never, ever, listen. It would be too much of a blow to their ego to actually reconsider their opinions.


Do you think people can't climb steep on a single Speed? Folks around here climb most everything on a single speed.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mbmb65 said:


> Do you think people can't climb steep on a single Speed? Folks around here climb most everything on a single speed.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I will concur. There's some serious freaks of nature in Pisgah!


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

mbmb65 said:


> That's all fine and Groovy until your trails get "loved" to death.


You build more trails and do more maintenance to accommodate the increased number of riders. Our trails, about 35 miles of XC, are almost entirely built professionally and maintained by local volunteers. We just added about 15 miles on top of the existing 30, got rid of all the two-way, and an additional 25 miles are fully funded and on the docket for construction. Working on spending a $5.4 million grant secured last year. Like I said, your problems may be different than ours.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Gutch said:


> If you lived in a population of 1,000 people and had 15 mtbrs, how many trails would you have versus 100,000 population and thousands of cyclists? More is more! (Given you have land to expand)


The "land to expand" part is the kicker, though. I'd guess that 90% of the folks on MTBR live in a relatively dense metro area of some sort - where land is at a premium, and the opportunities for new trails are very constrained. More riders is *bad* in that situation. Hell, even here in Park City we're essentially built out. We can reconfigure and reroute trails, but the opportunity to build significant new mileage isn't really there anymore.

If you have somewhere to build, more riders is usually good, though.

-Walt


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Walt said:


> The "land to expand" part is the kicker, though. I'd guess that 90% of the folks on MTBR live in a relatively dense metro area of some sort - where land is at a premium, and the opportunities for new trails are very constrained. More riders is *bad* in that situation. Hell, even here in Park City we're essentially built out. We can reconfigure and reroute trails, but the opportunity to build significant new mileage isn't really there anymore.
> 
> If you have somewhere to build, more riders is usually good, though.
> 
> -Walt


In my experience, it's common that people who live in relatively dense metro areas believe that everybody else does too.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> In my experience, it's common that people who live in relatively dense metro areas believe that everybody else does too.


Pretty easy to look up, I imagine the US folks on this site line up with the general US population:

In 2010, a total of 80.7 percent of Americans lived in urban areas, up from 79 percent in 2000.
https://www.reuters.com/article/usa...s-in-past-decade-census-idUSL2E8EQ5AJ20120326

Actually, I would not be surprised if the percentage of mtbrs who live in urban areas are a higher percentage than the general population.


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Cuyuna said:


> You build more trails and do more maintenance to accommodate the increased number of riders. Our trails, about 35 miles of XC, are almost entirely built professionally and maintained by local volunteers. We just added about 15 miles on top of the existing 30, got rid of all the two-way, and an additional 25 miles are fully funded and on the docket for construction. Working on spending a $5.4 million grant secured last year. Like I said, your problems may be different than ours.


Very different I'd say. I don't live in a dense urban area, but I do live in a place that folks from all over the world flock to, to ride. That's the problem, just too many people. And just about all of the riding here is on public land, which ain't easy to build on.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Urban != relatively dense metro. He gave Park City, UT as a fringe comparison. I kind of get the idea that the NorCal forum is practically its own separate thing, possibly fitting his metro picture.

Cuyuna highlights a common human rationalizing habit, but it not only affects people who live in those areas, but humans in general. It's called the recency/frequency illusion. It's what I suspect most generalizations and made-up statistics are based on.

Back on topic, what is even the purpose of bringing attention to this? Just seems misleading and the the support from the later posts seem recklessly hopeful.

I'd argue that Americans were developed on the principles of "habit forming". Through how we were raised, from education, to consuming media, our thinking and actions were molded to fit into society. It's wrong to do this and that, but you're fine and making no trouble for others as long as you do this. We were given things to shoot for: friends, a stable income, a nice car, someone to mate with, a comfortable house, to fill the house with a family and typical household belongings, to celebrate traditions like weddings, funerals, coming of age celebrations (e.g. birthdays, graduation), to enjoy freedom through passtimes (e.g. sports, craft hobbies), etc... I suspect that the ones that do bikes long term as adults tend to be the ones who had considerably good experiences as a kid, and have no expectations that just anyone picks it up. Some people did basketball or soccer as a kid, or video games, and that becomes their "thing" to come back to as an adult. Unless the ebike thing forms healthy habits, I'm going to side with the New Years Resolution skeptical guy.

I read ebikes, not emtbs. In densely populated areas, like Japanese cities, bikes are sort of in a purgatory of regulation. Common public metro transportation solutions are being put into place, to address the issues with traffic saturation. Due to traffic issues, there were new safety laws added to bikes: no side-by-side riding, no cellphone use while riding, no riding while intoxicated, no riding with headphones in both ears, etc. It's reasonable to expect this with traffic here too. People are just being preemptive about it, since they have a strong concern.

_What we need is a community that gives back, rather than just takes and takes and treats others as outsiders_. Hikers were against bikers with similar arguments, but bikes have fully invaded the trails. There's a huge hiking meetup group that I checked out, but only an extremely small % of people actually show up, many of them who are also mtbers. I used to trail run and would be in a nice peaceful rhythm, then end up jumping up and off the trail when startled by mtbers approaching from behind. I just joined the mtbers, rather than fight it. Mtb's fun, but I still have my trail running shoes and dislike the cost of the complex mtb gear setup (bike, helmet, clothes, hydration, tools, spares, backcountry kits (first aid), bike rack, bike storage, maintenance, etc.). I'd go trail run in a heartbeat if someone invited me to go along with 'em, but there just seems to be less resistance to jump on a bike and head outdoors from my doorstep (perhaps picking up something on the way back), rather than driving to a trailhead late afternoon when the mtn lions are active (twilight) or in the morning when the rattlesnakes are out sunbathing. I'm somewhat glad that I set an arbitrarily low budget for getting into mtb, but eventually am replacing everything with better quality stuff. Just seemed like I had nothing to give back at least financially, just picking up litter only to see it come back weeks later, and hearing bikers blame hikers for it when asking if they know who's doing it. I see mtbers tossing fruit peels and cores saying it decomposes, but hikers do the same... it's the person, not their gear or discipline. If they weren't stressed to their limit and welcomed, instead of scrutinized, I imagine they'd be more considerate and willing to pay back the hospitality given. Maybe if I instead told the mtbers that I picked up the trash and saw it come back, that I'd appreciate if they let me know if they see who's doing it, rather than word it like I did before, things would be cooler.

Basically, I'm open to emtbs, but I doubt it's a silver bullet to any problems. Less resistance to get on and ride, for sure, but people have strong excuses for everything, like it's too hot out or the timing isn't right. I simply see it as a viable alternative to other bikes in the same price range. I know if I were considering a 4200 Spec comp carbon bike, I'd also be comparing the Turbo Levo in the same price range (4500). Basically, it's carbon vs motor, and I'm thinking the motor wins out (if only it had something better than a Reba). Reading up on the USFS/BLM bans on them, one just interpreted it as a motor vehicle and applied the same rules to them, while the other adopted the decision for consistency. I've seen *nothing* rational from opposition, that doesn't apply to non-motorized mtb as well. Same goes for the bicycle access in wilderness setbacks, with opposition saying that letting human-powered wheeled vehicles will lead to access to other things, all the way to what they fear, the heavy equipment ruining their preservation efforts. Right now, emtb access and the stupid political side is keeping from even bothering... I'm trying to not buying any bike stuff unless it's a versatile emtb with made-to-last design, as opposed to weight weenie race stuff, something that I'd not only ride on the trails, but do all my riding on, and replacing some of the shuttling and shorter transportation needs. Maybe I'll pay more attention to the shops I always drive by to get to my destination... it seems like a shame that they're hidden from view by a parking lot, and traffic zooms by at 30-45 mph without getting much a glance besides someone maybe reading the sign. The money I save on fuel can perhaps go towards creating a sort of communal bond... hopeful thinking, but I'm already pretty big on commuting by bike, just on a cheap beater taking the same bike-safe route, not really adventuring beyond it. There's the quote: "life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all."

Sorry for the long rant, but I've held it in for a while. Really been trying to avoid these overly political threads, where a few people try to decide rules for a whole...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I live in a rural area, have chosen to live in rural areas since leaving home after high school.

I rarely encounter people on the trails unless I ride in a tourist area (Tahoe). 

What I appreciate most about my local trails is how the difficulty limits access, steep, technical, remote.

I don’t want more riders on the trails, but ebikers dont tend to ride technical stuff, so I’m not that worried.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Here is my experience. I went to an e fat bike because of age and running up against some health limits. I went from 1400 miles a year with a split of 60% single track 40% paved to 5,000 miles a year with a split of 5% single track, 20% fire roads/gravel and 75% pavement. A e bike makes pavement and gravel far more enjoyable.

What I found out was that only about 10% of a ride does 90% of wiping you out and decreasing the enjoyment. The e bike essentially wipes out that 10% making it possible to ride much longer. My fitness level is higher with the e bike. 

I have built e bikes for friends who are over 80 and the transformation of how they feel about themselves is nothing short of spectacular. I am currently building one for my mother who is over 90.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Walt said:


> The "land to expand" part is the kicker, though. I'd guess that 90% of the folks on MTBR live in a relatively dense metro area of some sort - where land is at a premium, and the opportunities for new trails are very constrained. More riders is *bad* in that situation. Hell, even here in Park City we're essentially built out. We can reconfigure and reroute trails, but the opportunity to build significant new mileage isn't really there anymore.
> 
> If you have somewhere to build, more riders is usually good, though.
> 
> -Walt


Admittedly, (and fortunately) I can't relate. Around here, those dense urban mountain bikers often pack up and drive 2-3 hours or more to ride here and other such areas, presumably to escape the overcrowded and poorly maintained "trails" that "90% of the folks on MTBR" have to ride. We do have "land to expand" and the growing influx of dense urban mountain bikers is a big part of the reason why we do expand. That increasing number of riders is a great thing for my friends and me, who benefit from increasingly excellent mountain biking and a growing supporting infrastructure that we can actually ride to rather than pack up for. Y'all are welcome to visit anytime. You might actually see some other mountain bikers on the trails, although the number of riders is mostly a problem when you stop somewhere on the trails to get lunch and one of the local craft beers. But you won't have to dodge horses, hikers, or dogs, (although I did almost hit a porcupine yesterday). And feel free to bring your e-bike.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

"I went to an e fat bike because of age and running up against some health limits."

Take this with a grain of salt because after several attempts to like fad bikes I found them lacking in all my required departments. Primarily their increased rolling resistance at the low psi they are most effective at for traction and front end steering due to increased contact patch at low psi creating issues in regards to self steering. But I fail to see any reason why age or health reasons has anything to do with it.

"An e bike makes pavement and gravel far more enjoyable."

While I agree with this pretty much wholeheartedly after years of primarily mtb riding on my e drop bar bikes I prefer a 40-45c tire on an i25 rim run tubeless at 35psi +/- for this type of riding as well as light trail work and have ridden plenty of sandy routes also.









And I'm no spring chicken btw. YMMV of course.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Bigwheel my health issue is heart rate. I am 63 yo and my VO max is right around 180. Parking lot heart rate is usually just north of 100. On a decent mountain bike I push over 145 within the first quarter mile. I am not in bad physical shape. 

I wanted a fat bike for snow and sand but knew that the extra work and lacking in other requirements, would be too much. The e power takes away almost all of the lacking requirements and makes the bike feel light. 

I went through three tires before I got one I liked. The bike came with Maxxis Minions 26 X 4.8. Not the best in snow and more noise and rolling resistance than I wanted. Not bad for understeering at low pressure. The next tire I tried was Vee Tire Mission Command 26x 4.8 and they had higher rolling resistance, better noise and unacceptable understeering. Got a large diameter stick through the Missions within the first 500 miles and went to Schwalbe Jumbo Jims 26 X4.8 Snake Skin. The Jumbo Jims set up tubeless take a lot of weight out of the wheels, have very low rolling resistance and great understeer. Taking the weight out of the wheels made the bike feel entirely different. The rolling resistance is very low, noise is still to high and they handle snow ok. Very happy with them. I can pedal the bike at 14 mph on flat without assistance. Wind resistance becomes an issue about 2 mph sooner than my FS S-works Stumpy.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

This sport doesn't need more people on the trails. It need more responsible caretakers of the resources we have. Mountain biking isn't about recruiting masses of people to ride through the woods. It's about going out alone or a bunch of friends and enjoying the primitive beauty of nature. The last thing the sports needs is a bunch of lazy hippies riding up and down the trails all day long because they never get tired.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Lemonaid said:


> This sport doesn't need more people on the trails. It need more responsible caretakers of the resources we have. Mountain biking isn't about recruiting masses of people to ride through the woods. It's about going out alone or a bunch of friends and enjoying the primitive beauty of nature. The last thing the sports needs is a bunch of lazy hippies riding up and down the trails all day long because they never get tired.


"Primitive beauty of nature", LMAO. At least 95% of riding, even in Colorado where I live, is done on pre-built, maintained trails within a few miles of a nearby town, accompanied by tons of other people. Even the "primitive" trails are maintained, and have plenty of people on them these days. That goes triple for the MTB meccas like Crested Butte, Fruita and Moab.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Lemonaid said:


> This sport doesn't need more people on the trails. It need more responsible caretakers of the resources we have. Mountain biking isn't about recruiting masses of people to ride through the woods. It's about going out alone or a bunch of friends and enjoying the primitive beauty of nature. The last thing the sports needs is a bunch of lazy hippies riding up and down the trails all day long because they never get tired.


Buncha damn lazy hippies! This lazy hippie thinks this is a dumb azz post. If I get new friends into riding, that's a bad thing?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> If I get new friends into riding, that's a bad thing?


Depends. Some trail networks are saturated. Some don't get enough maintenance. And others have almost no traffic. New riders doesn't mean the trails will get new stewards or even new volunteers to help maintain them unfortunately. So, it depends.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It's nice if people get excercise.

I've yet to meet any rider who wants more people on their favorite trails unless they're very lonely, or make money off of it somehow. We've edging into too many users territory here, although it's far worse elsewhere on the front range. 

And, be careful what you wish for, I just spent a couple of weekends in Crested Butte, and it's so crowded, that trailheads are overflowing and cars are stuffed everywhere you can get reasonably near them. Having ridden there since 1985, it's sad to see and unpleasant to experience. 

It kind of reminded me of any major ski area on a powder day.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Harryman said:


> And, be careful what you wish for, I just spent a couple of weekends in Crested Butte, and it's so crowded, that trailheads are overflowing and cars are stuffed everywhere you can get reasonably near them.


Glentress is like that and they are expanding it! The people who run it are only looking at the money.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

From what my retailer friends tell me, bike sales aren’t exactly exploding. At least not in the south east or ny region. Maybe online?


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## fleboz (Apr 22, 2015)

"And, be careful what you wish for," a little strange coming from a moderator on a site that encourages people to get out on the trails. And also why I moved out of the red color state


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

fleboz said:


> "And, be careful what you wish for," a little strange coming from a moderator on a site that encourages people to get out on the trails. And also why I moved out of the red color state


Moderators can and do have their own opinions on matters.


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## fleboz (Apr 22, 2015)

Agreed and so can I.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> From what my retailer friends tell me, bike sales aren't exactly exploding. At least not in the south east or ny region. Maybe online?


E-bikes are the hail Mary pass for some companies, watch for it.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Mountain biking isn't a hobby. It's not something that you _do_...it's something that you _are_. It's...it's a way of life, a calling, a higher purpose. And only the enlightened are entitled to enjoy it.



I get that some people do feel that way, but the self-righteous sanctimonious attitude that goes along so closely is really almost amusing. Especially the predictability, and usually the same 6 or 8 posters.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> &#8230;but then I don't live where you live. It must be a lot different there.





Cuyuna said:


> &#8230;Like I said, your problems may be different than ours.





Cuyuna said:


> Mountain biking isn't a hobby. It's not something that you _do_...it's something that you _are_. It's...it's a way of life, a calling, a higher purpose. And only the enlightened are entitled to enjoy it.
> 
> 
> 
> I get that some people do feel that way, but the self-righteous sanctimonious attitude that goes along so closely is really almost amusing. Especially the predictability, and usually the same 6 or 8 posters.


Talk about predictable. Broken record.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

chazpat said:


> Talk about predictable. Broken record.


*yawn*


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fleboz said:


> "And, be careful what you wish for," a little strange coming from a moderator on a site that encourages people to get out on the trails. And also why I moved out of the red color state


All my moderator job entails is keeping things civil and killing korean spam in the suspension forum, which has taken roughly 20 minutes of my time over the past year. We're not employees, or devotees of some vision that we receive in meetings with corporate. I'm just some dude who can click a button and make spam go away.

I'd be personally could care less if the bike industry shrank by half, or if people decided that rollerblading was a much better use of their outdoor time. Less riders on my trails? I wouldn't weep, I've been there and it was good.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

fleboz said:


> "And, be careful what you wish for," a little strange coming from a moderator on a site that encourages people to get out on the trails. And also why I moved out of the red color state


What I've noticed, and this applies to a lot more than mountain biking, is that red states have less laws in general, which means that for better or worse it's more open to biking, including e-biking. Again, in general. I supposedly live in a Blue state of California, but I live right next to a very red area in my county, and there are basically no rangers enforcing anything on the trails. In fact it's pretty scary because people shoot guns right off the highway where I park to go ride. No regulations, remember...

If I go to a more blue part of the county, then there are more regulations, rangers, etc. When I first heard the phrase "All politics is local" I didn't understand what it meant. I understand now, it's amazing how local it can be for regulations.


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

I have reached the "get off my lawn" stage of life. As such, I couldn't care less if people are riding more or if the sport is growing. In fact, I prefer fewer people on the trails.

Thus this article highlights a net negative for me.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm just another old grouch like Harry, but I also have zero interest in "growing the sport" or adding users to the trail systems I ride. Hell, I make a living in the bike industry and I don't care if it grows or not. 

I quit surfing (which, to be fair, I sucked at) long ago because it got so crowded everywhere that it wasn't fun anymore. The same thing can happen to popular mountain bike spots, and has in many places.

-Walt


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## fleboz (Apr 22, 2015)

i wasn't referring to politics. Colorados name origin is Spanish meaning "colored red". 
Walt-I was saying that in jest. No offense intended. I moved out because of the growth and will have to move again at some point.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Cars get people fit too!

Just about every gym in the country have big parking lots where the people who drive to the gym to get fit can park.

I love when people say that it allows the cripples, the unfit, the unwashed masses to get out there as a justification for their own laziness in not being able to pedal a real bike anymore.

For most people it is just one step closer to a cane which is one step closer to a walker which is one step closer to a wheelchair, which is one step closer to a coffin!

Hey I have dabbled with e-bikes and even have one that I don't bother using after the initial curiosity wore off.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

richwolf said:


> I love when people say that it allows the cripples, the unfit, the unwashed masses to get out there as a justification for their own laziness in not being able to pedal a real bike anymore.


This is a very nieve position to take. Speaking from the school of hard knocks I did take your same position 40 years ago.

I married a nice young smart woman 40 years ago. Little did I know that she was delt a bad genetic hand. She has endured more than 50 hours of orthopedic surgeries. She had one third of her back replaced, one hip, both knees and both feet completely fused except the ankle joint. She has no proprioception and little exteroception. Her balance is not natural and is entirely learned. She cannot balance on one foot even while sitting on a bike. Her gait is poor and she walks with a cane.

She can ride an e bike but not a regular bike. She cannot get a regular bike up to enough speed to balance and get her other foot onto the pedal. She cannot get into or out a tricycle. Toddlers and dogs scare the hell out of her. She has trouble sensing where the bike will stop for a cross road. 
Is she lazy and dumb? Hardly, she should be in that coffin but instead is IT manager in a fortune 500 company.

Me I am totally opposite. I am a top level alpine skier with a high level of natural coordination and balance. I had a very tough time trying to understand my wife's physical limitations. I had to throw out everything I believed to be true about fitness in order to help her.

I am still quite fit enough to ride a regular bike but choose the e bike, not because I am lazy its because I have an active life other than biking I need energy for.

I invent and build things. If you can dream it I can build it. I spend my time helping those poor souls whom can no longer ride a regular bike to stay out of that coffin. I had to get my head out of my ass in order to be effective. The personal rewards have been beyond my wildest dreams from 40 years ago.

I had your same attitude 40 years ago. I certainly never envisioned I would be helping the physically downtrodden poor slobs and feeling fulfilled doing it. I can't in all honesty ridicule you and then look in the mirror because "There by the grace of god go I. "


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

richwolf said:


> Cars get people fit too!
> 
> Just about every gym in the country have big parking lots where the people who drive to the gym to get fit can park.
> 
> ...


Ah yes, the lazy argument... You need something better than this. Turn the bike off and ride it. See how many watts your putting out now!


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Gutch said:


> Ah yes, the lazy argument... You need something better than this. Turn the bike off and ride it. See how many watts your putting out now!


Right.....the argument that ebikes are more of a workout when you rise them with the motor turned off....because we all know that ebike riders do that all the time.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

My point wasn't that e-bikes don't have their place for some people, but that many use them as an excuse for their own laziness. Sorry to hear about the one posters wife who has a myriad of issues. Props to her for not giving up.

Hey I am 65, had heart surgery when I was in 7th grade, had an eye removed due to cancer, am not genetically gifted like many but I have done many epic multi week long bikepacking rides. I ride as much as I can and leave my car at home as much as possible. 

My wife is 62 and a type one diabetic. She rides a ton too. Most of her friends do little exercise, drink wine and eat **** food and wonder why they have so many problems. If she had their lifestyle she would probably be dead by now or suffering from numerous complications.

If people want to get in shape the first place to look is your diet. If you have a **** diet and are overweight then an e-bike ain't going to save you.

The average american treats their possessions a lot better than they do their bodies.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Some "food" for thought: https://health.usnews.com/health-ne.../08/diet-vs-exercise-a-healthy-habit-showdown

Of course both diet and exercise are important. Some diet coaches believe that you need to get your diet squared away before you begin an exercise regimen.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mtnbikej said:


> Right.....the argument that ebikes are more of a workout when you rise them with the motor turned off....because we all know that ebike riders do that all the time.


I do.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

richwolf said:


> Some "food" for thought: https://health.usnews.com/health-ne.../08/diet-vs-exercise-a-healthy-habit-showdown
> 
> Of course both diet and exercise are important. Some diet coaches believe that you need to get your diet squared away before you begin an exercise regimen.


I agree 100% if that's the agenda the riders after. I don't ride any bicycle for exercise. Idc my ebike, road, Mtb, eroad, fixie. The exercise is a bonus of being outdoors ripping.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

richwolf said:


> Some "food" for thought: https://health.usnews.com/health-ne.../08/diet-vs-exercise-a-healthy-habit-showdown
> 
> Of course both diet and exercise are important. Some diet coaches believe that you need to get your diet squared away before you begin an exercise regimen.


Yes, you can't out run/ride a crappy diet.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

🥓☕🍺🍕 do these count?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

What a ludicrous thread. If eBikes are so wonderful then why are their users always so desperate for affirmation and reassurance?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Mr Pig said:


> What a ludicrous thread. If eBikes are so wonderful then why are their users always so desperate for affirmation and reassurance?


Human nature, just look at all the "did I buy the right bike" threads. Most people want, need affirmation that they made a good decision.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> I agree 100% if that's the agenda the riders after. I don't ride any bicycle for exercise. Idc my ebike, road, Mtb, eroad, fixie. The exercise is a bonus of being outdoors ripping.


100%

**** the fitness police!


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

PierreR said:


> This is a very nieve position to take. Speaking from the school of hard knocks I did take your same position 40 years ago.
> 
> I married a nice young smart woman 40 years ago. Little did I know that she was delt a bad genetic hand. She has endured more than 50 hours of orthopedic surgeries. She had one third of her back replaced, one hip, both knees and both feet completely fused except the ankle joint. She has no proprioception and little exteroception. Her balance is not natural and is entirely learned. She cannot balance on one foot even while sitting on a bike. Her gait is poor and she walks with a cane.
> 
> ...


Much respect for your wife. No one here is against the disabled riding ebikes. I have to ask, is she riding trails though? I would think her lack of balance would mean she needs to stick to smoother/leveler surfaces. I think everyone here is fine with ebikes on pavement.



PierreR said:


> I am still quite fit enough to ride a regular bike but choose the e bike, not because I am lazy its because I have an active life other than biking I need energy for.


Yeah, the rest of us have active lives other than biking we need energy for as well. Not sure what makes you any different in that regards. What are you doing that requires so much more energy than the rest of us? I find bike riding conditions me to be able to do more.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Gutch said:


> 肋☕ do these count?


I don't know, send us a full body selfie.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

No thanks.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

richwolf said:


> I don't know, send us a full body selfie.


Ok, if you insist.


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## Robopotomus (Oct 6, 2013)

It really hacks me of all this "ebikes are for lazy people". I've been a keen mtb cyclist since late 80s. However, In the last 3 years I've had 80% of my left lung removed, and 20% of my right lung removed. Oh and 10" of my bowel. All due to cancer. Throughout my 3 lung operations what kept me going was getting out on my MTB again. The last operation left me struggling to cycle uphill and made MTB so much of a struggle I gave up. I bought a e MTB last month and it has allowed me to get out o the trails again. I ride it with the minimum level assist I can get away with, and then ride the downhills like I used to do. I can now ride without assist on most gentle gradients and get a really good workout. 

So for those ebike haters, don't knock It. One day you might need an ebike to continue to do the thing you love doing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

No one grudges eBikes in the hands of people who have physical problems but there is no way that user group explains the huge leap in sales.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Gutch said:


> View attachment 1210701
> 
> 
> Ok, if you insist.


What happens when you take off the bungee cords at night??


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Mr Pig said:


> No one grudges eBikes in the hands of people who have physical problems but there is no way that user group explains the huge leap in sales.


How many pedal bikes get bought and ridden once or twice? I would expect that once the novelty wears off many emotorbikes will suffer the same fate.


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## Robopotomus (Oct 6, 2013)

life behind bars said:


> How many pedal bikes get bought and ridden once or twice? I would expect that once the novelty wears off many emotorbikes will suffer the same fate.


I agree. Same as weight benches, multi gyms, ab rollers, metal detectors. The list goes on. However my point was that we will all get older, some will get injuries, others will get medical conditions. We can't predict what the future holds for us. Hopefully most will have a healthy and injury free life.

So why campaign to have enablers (class 1 ebikes ) for those of us less fortunate, banned from the trails, and deny many the freedom to enjoy life ?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Robopotomus said:


> I agree. Same as weight benches, multi gyms, ab rollers, metal detectors. The list goes on. However my point was that we will all get older, some will get injuries, others will get medical conditions. We can't predict what the future holds for us. Hopefully most will have a healthy and injury free life.
> 
> So why campaign to have enablers (class 1 ebikes ) for those of us less fortunate, banned from the trails, and deny many the freedom to enjoy life ?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I have yet to see even the most staunch opposers to eBikes on the trails villainize anyone with a disability that is using one because it is the only way they can get on a bike due to said disability.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

chazpat said:


> Ok, hoping we can keep this thread just a discussion.
> 
> I do not want more people out on the trails where I ride. Just like golfers do not want more people out on the golf course they have to play through, tennis players don't want to have to wait for a court to be available, hunters don't want more hunters in the woods, swimmers would prefer not to have to split lanes, etc. Where you are, maybe there is room for more people on the trails but that's not necessarily true everywhere. Just like ebikes were great in big Chinese cities until there got to be too many.
> 
> But I imagine this article is talking about ebikes on pavement. I'm not surprised that getting some exercise is better than getting none. I'm all for ebikes on pavement and on some trails.





chazpat said:


> Ok, hoping we can keep this thread just a discussion.
> 
> I do not want more people out on the trails where I ride. Just like golfers do not want more people out on the golf course they have to play through, tennis players don't want to have to wait for a court to be available, hunters don't want more hunters in the woods, swimmers would prefer not to have to split lanes, etc. Where you are, maybe there is room for more people on the trails but that's not necessarily true everywhere. Just like ebikes were great in big Chinese cities until there got to be too many.
> 
> But I imagine this article is talking about ebikes on pavement. I'm not surprised that getting some exercise is better than getting none. I'm all for ebikes on pavement and on some trails.


I'm curious what areas do you ride that you find too many other riders? Even Demo forest on a Saturday doesn't have litterally dozens of people passing me every minute. I get that we don't want too many people on the trails but how many is too much?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Robopotomus said:


> So why campaign to have enablers (class 1 ebikes ) for those of us less fortunate, banned from the trails, and deny many the freedom to enjoy life ?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


This isn't an access discussion, feel free to start an access thread of your own.


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## Robopotomus (Oct 6, 2013)

life behind bars said:


> This isn't an access discussion, feel free to start an access thread of your own.


Sorry, lifebehindbars, didn't mean to steer it in that direction.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Robopotomus said:


> Sorry, lifebehindbars, didn't mean to steer it in that direction.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


:thumbsup:


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Phantastic79 said:


> I'm curious what areas do you ride that you find too many other riders? Even Demo forest on a Saturday doesn't have litterally dozens of people passing me every minute. I get that we don't want too many people on the trails but how many is too much?


Blanket's Creek, metro Atlanta. And I didn't say there are too many riders. I've said in the past that despite a lot of riders, it works surprisingly well but throw in a large number of riders from a new user group on faster moving vehicles and there will be issues.

Where is Demo forest?! You do realize that this is an international website, right?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

richwolf said:


> What happens when you take off the bungee cords at night??


I don't ever!


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

life behind bars said:


> How many pedal bikes get bought and ridden once or twice? I would expect that once the novelty wears off many emotorbikes will suffer the same fate.


Yes, I think so. I hope so! Most people can't maintain a regular bike so they'll have conniptions when their eBike goes cabluey. Especially if it does it in the wild.


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## JackWare (Aug 8, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> they'll have conniptions when their eBike goes cabluey.


There's a phrase to remember


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> Yes, I think so. I hope so! Most people can't maintain a regular bike so they'll have conniptions when their eBike goes cabluey. Especially if it does it in the wild.


I think it's the regular bike that's going to be shelved.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> I think it's the regular bike that's going to be shelved.


You may be right, most people favor the easier option. I just can't get onboard with something that will make Americans get even less exercise than the small amount so many already get, we have a growing epidemic of unhealthiness in this country and I don't buy that most ebikers will get as much exercise as someone on a regular bike.

One of my coworkers is looking at buying a Segway. Though not obese, he is chunky.

EDIT: he's now riding around our office on a hoverboard.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Meh, I worry about my family and myself. Whatever other folks do or don’t do, I really don’t care.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

chazpat said:


> No one here is against the disabled riding ebikes.


Everywhere ebikes are treated differently then bikes and bikes are treated differently then hikers, the disabled/unfit are kept from enjoying the outdoors and exercising. Is MTBR at a consensus that ebikes should be treated as regular bikes?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

figofspee said:


> Everywhere ebikes are treated differently then bikes and bikes are treated differently then hikers, the disabled/unfit are kept from enjoying the outdoors and exercising. Is MTBR at a consensus that ebikes should be treated as regular bikes?


I think the consensus is that disabled should be able to use e-bikes as OPDMDs under the ADA act. Which they already are in non-federally managed trail systems. I would imagine most have no problem with extending that exemption to federal lands; I know I don't. Of course, being 'unfit' is NOT a qualifying disability.

Other consensus is that it the whole disability access issue is nothing but a red herring, usually brought up by people lacking the knowledge of the laws already in place covering it.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I have to laugh at all those that are so worried about the handicapped and disabled and using that as an excuse in their argument for unfettered access to the wild.

I would bet most e-bike sales are not to that group of people but to people who want the easy way out.

What ever happened to people actually having to work to get out there??

E-bikes aren't the answer to getting people in shape.

I also know that e=bikes and batteries will become more powerful and with more range and before you know it they will look like bicycles but have the power of a small motorcycle.

Then people will mod the **** out of them to take a "legal" e-bike and make it more powerful.

Like Edward Abbey said, let the hikers, bicyclists, and equestrians in. Get rid of the visitor centers, gift shops and bullshit that is destroying our national treasures. Make people work for something for a change.

Next thing you know they will be putting chairlifts up Everest so all those poor cripple people can enjoy it too!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

richwolf said:


> Next thing you know they will be putting chairlifts up Everest so all those poor cripple people can enjoy it too!


"Cripple" people have climbed Everest a number of times.

Have you?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

richwolf said:


> Get rid of the visitor centers, gift shops and bullshit that is destroying our national treasures. Make people work for something for a change.


Good point. There are two trail centers in the borders, just a few minutes apart, that are part of the same group. Glentress and Innerlethan. Glentress has a bike shop, bike hire, a large cafe, toilets, showers and even toilets half way up the hill. Innerlethan has nothing! An ash carpark, that's it. Glentress is packed all the time, Innerlethan is usually very quiet.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Meh, I worry about my family and myself. Whatever other folks do or don't do, I really don't care.


While I largely agree with you, one reason my health insurance is so outrageously high is I end up subsidizing all the people who choose to be unhealthy and then want the medical and pharmaceutical industry to "fix" them.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

figofspee said:


> Everywhere ebikes are treated differently then bikes and bikes are treated differently then hikers, the disabled/unfit are kept from enjoying the outdoors and exercising. Is MTBR at a consensus that ebikes should be treated as regular bikes?


Interesting how you lump the unfit with the disabled.

No one's stopping anyone from enjoying the outdoors and exercising just because there may be some areas they are unable to access. There are trails that I'm too old to safely ride but I do not expect someone to change that to accommodate me.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

chazpat said:


> Interesting how you lump the unfit with the disabled.
> 
> No one's stopping anyone from enjoying the outdoors and exercising just because there may be some areas they are unable to access. There are trails that I'm too old to safely ride but I do not expect someone to change that to accommodate me.


This, separating the disabled from the "unfit" in these discussions would be much more genuine and probably look less like a propagandists talking point.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

chazpat said:


> Interesting how you lump the unfit with the disabled.


Also ridiculous to suggest that the disabled and unfit are being kept from enjoying the outdoors and exercising.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

richwolf said:


> I have to laugh at all those that are so worried about the handicapped and disabled and using that as an excuse in their argument for unfettered access to the wild.
> 
> I would bet most e-bike sales are not to that group of people but to people who want the easy way out.
> 
> ...


Ebikes aren't but tv's are? Any movement is better than none. I'd love to see you ride an ebike hard and tell me you didn't get a workout. If that's the case, you're more ripped than I am and judging by my photo, I bet not! Nothing wrong with hard work, as long as you're working smart.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

figofspee said:


> Everywhere ebikes are treated differently then bikes and bikes are treated differently then hikers, the disabled/unfit are kept from enjoying the outdoors and exercising. Is MTBR at a consensus that ebikes should be treated as regular bikes?


Of course, without ebikes, the disabled/unfit have no other way to enjoy the outdoors or excercise. :skep:

















I've got no issue with someone with an actual ADA disability using an ebike as an OPMD, but to pretend ebikes are a some unique liberating vehicle is ludicrous. The make it easier to pedal, that's it. Pedalling isn't that hard on a bike, unfit people (myself included) have been managing it for years. Do it enough and you get in better shape. Just like every other athletic activity.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> "Cripple" people have climbed Everest a number of times.
> 
> Have you?


No, I am waiting for the chairlift to be put in!

I was using the word cripple as a euphemism.

I know lots of "cripples" who put most people to shame because they aren't looking for excuses. When I put on bike events, I saw people all the time that did some amazing things. From the 350 pound guy who used to weigh 500 pounds and decided he didn't want surgery to lose weight, to a one legged cyclist who was in front of most people on a 50 mile ride with over 5,000 feet of climbing.

As a high school MTB race coach I see incredibly gifted kids who podium just give up and the ones that aren't so gifted who work their asses off to just be mid pack racers. Guess who gets the job, scholarship and achievement recommendations??

Since the 70's people have been getting fatter and more out of shape every year. When I used to watch the Tour de France the roadside spectators were all pretty much thin. When I watch it today there are so many more fat people.

Bottom line, E=bikes aren't going to make us any more fit. They will eventually lose their pedals and become motorcycles.

If you can't control your weight and your health then you have lost control.

By the way mofo when did you scale everest?


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Gutch said:


> Ebikes aren't but tv's are? Any movement is better than none. I'd love to see you ride an ebike hard and tell me you didn't get a workout. If that's the case, you're more ripped than I am and judging by my photo, I bet not! Nothing wrong with hard work, as long as you're working smart.


This is more bullshit. I have an e-bike that I don't use. I know full well how people use them and it generally isn't to work up a sweat. If you are so into working out why not just ditch the motor in the first place? Hey just look at all the calories I am burning by just typing on this thread! Computers get people moving and in shape too!

Hey I will post a picture of my old ass self if you post one of you. Come back here in a couple of years and tell us how much better shape you are in.

Well enough of my pontificating. Have fun getting into shape the E-bike way.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

When virtual mountain biking becomes the norm my virtual body is going to be ripped.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

chazpat said:


> You may be right, most people favor the easier option. I just can't get onboard with something that will make Americans get even less exercise than the small amount so many already get, we have a growing epidemic of unhealthiness in this country and I don't buy that most ebikers will get as much exercise as someone on a regular bike.





richwolf said:


> I would bet most e-bike sales are not to that group of people but to people who want the easy way out.
> 
> What ever happened to people actually having to work to get out there??
> 
> E-bikes aren't the answer to getting people in shape.


Up until I really started playing with e-bikes and working with your so called "lazy out of shape Americans." I pretty much had the same opinion as you guys which kinda tells me how much experience you have with e-bikes and their allure.

I now call them health bikes and see them as a very sophisticated piece of exercise equipment and not as some easy way for a slob to gain access to trails that require skill.

I have built 12 e bikes so far. All of them to owners whom were not riding a regular bike at all. Three of those bikes went to people whom had completely given up on getting into shape period. All three people were over 300lb one was over 400 lbs.

Not one of them ever imagined ending up in the predicament that they found themselves in. All of them had serious self esteem problems, body shame and a complete mental block about putting it out there for all to see. We are talking about people whom cannot even walk far enough to get enough exercise to make headway. This is something fit people cannot easily envision without feeling like they deserve it. I don't judge, I go by results.

An e bike supports a lot of their weight making it easier to move feet and knees. The power assists them in pedaling through the motions. They are not afraid of not making it back to where they started. They feel empowered, not ashamed because they can meld in with more fit riders and enjoy group riding with others. They are out where the sounds and feel of nature fill them with hope instead of fill their hands with food. They can tailor the assist levels giving themselves short intervals of greater exercise but at the push of a button get some relief. Wind and hills disappear, balance improves. The list goes on.

A e bike is not in a boring uninspiring gym environment where certain muscle groups are exercised while other muscle groups go lacking. The bike does not require payment of a regular membership nor a lot of planning ahead. The bike can be used for short or long time slots.

I will tell you what the feedback has been. Above all they use their e bikes one heck of a lot more than any other form of exercise because in their word an e bike is a hell of a lot of fun. You watch their self esteem soar. I have never encountered anyone using an e bike to get into shape that has changed to wanting to use an e bike to rip it up past other people. I have never encountered anyone whom wanted more boost and more speed. Everyone that I have worked with wanted me to program more options with lower assist levels as they gained fitness. Yes they wanted the option of zero boost while still maintaining electronics. Yes they wanted to retain at least one maximum boost level for various reasons but rarely used it. All of them will not part with their e bikes and all of them will tell you that they don't feel cheated in the slightest for riding what they consider to be the holy grail of exercise equipment.

Yes one of them is now also riding a regular bike in addition to the e-bike. 410ls down to 230 lbs.

My guess is that e-bikes will take the couch potatoes by storm over the next ten years as word gets out about the benefits. Something else that I have found. I have run into lazy people but truly lazy people usually cannot afford an e bike so they won't be on your trails anytime soon.

The most popular options I have built in are high end dropper posts to allow for easy mount and dismount while being able to raise the saddle to a decent riding height. Most popular saddle is and Infinity Saddle. Only saddle that I know of that gets more comfortable the longer you sit on it.

In short, I don't buy your image of what an e bike is all about based on my own experience . I am more fit by using an e bike than I would be without. Call be lazy if you like, I have a big BS meter.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

PierreR said:


> Up until I really started playing with e-bikes and working with your so called "lazy out of shape Americans." I pretty much had the same opinion as you guys which kinda tells me how much experience you have with e-bikes and their allure.
> 
> I now call them health bikes and see them as a very sophisticated piece of exercise equipment and not as some easy way for a slob to gain access to trails that require skill.
> 
> ...


Do you build these for a profit? If you do my bs meter is pretty big too. Just sayin.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

PierreR said:


> Up until I really started playing with e-bikes and working with your so called "lazy out of shape Americans." I pretty much had the same opinion as you guys which kinda tells me how much experience you have with e-bikes and their allure.
> 
> I now call them health bikes and see them as a very sophisticated piece of exercise equipment and not as some easy way for a slob to gain access to trails that require skill.
> 
> ...


So you're telling me you had a 400 lb guy riding a class 1 ebike on mountain bike trails? Not sure I'm buying that.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

PierreR said:


> Up until I really started playing with e-bikes and working with your so called "lazy out of shape Americans." I pretty much had the same opinion as you guys which kinda tells me how much experience you have with e-bikes and their allure.
> 
> I now call them health bikes and see them as a very sophisticated piece of exercise equipment and not as some easy way for a slob to gain access to trails that require skill.
> 
> ...


That is awesome and Kudo's to you and those you are training for finding a more out of the box approach to fitness than riding a stationary bike in the gym.

At what point in their training do you remove the assist and put them on a pedal bike? I imagine it would be case by case, but is there a certain target weight or target HR you are looking for before you feel they are healthy enough to ditch the motor?


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

PierreR said:


> Up until I really started playing with e-bikes and working with your so called "lazy out of shape Americans." I pretty much had the same opinion as you guys which kinda tells me how much experience you have with e-bikes and their allure.
> 
> I now call them health bikes and see them as a very sophisticated piece of exercise equipment and not as some easy way for a slob to gain access to trails that require skill.
> 
> ...


Would you consider these people to be capable of handling a crash or mechanical failure on the trail?


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

PierreR said:


> Up until I really started playing with e-bikes and working with your so called "lazy out of shape Americans." I pretty much had the same opinion as you guys which kinda tells me how much experience you have with e-bikes and their allure.
> 
> I now call them health bikes and see them as a very sophisticated piece of exercise equipment and not as some easy way for a slob to gain access to trails that require skill.
> 
> ...


But I thought emotorcyclist's were all actual cyclists too. What did I miss?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

PierreR said:


> Up until I really started playing with e-bikes and working with your so called "lazy out of shape Americans." I pretty much had the same opinion as you guys which kinda tells me how much experience you have with e-bikes and their allure.
> 
> I now call them health bikes and see them as a very sophisticated piece of exercise equipment and not as some easy way for a slob to gain access to trails that require skill.
> 
> ...


Pierre: Outstanding post but more important, an outstanding outlook in helping those folks who are desperate to change their lives and personal health around. Kudos to you in making it happen. Your post, detailing a bit of your work with the overweight has me thinking that the ebikes are a great tool for cardiac rehab, as well.

In many of my canal towpath rides, I come across people of all shapes and sizes. Most are simply walking. I have great admiration for all the people out there who are trying to make it happen; turning their life around by physical fitness. My hope is that in the coming years, the ebike becomes a more mainstream thing, opening up the idea for folks wanting to lose a lot of weight, that there are alternatives out there that will get them out into nature, instead of inside some sweat box of a gym. Bringing the fun back into exercise. The same applies for the cardiac folks as well. And as us baby boomers age out, there will be and there are, alot of folks having experienced some kind of cardiac event in their lives.

I post pretty much exclusively to OldBear's Fat Biking & Health thread; found in the Fatbikes Forum on this site. Started out posting about my Specialized Fatboy; detailing my ride reports, how many miles I knocked down, where I rode the beast; while noting the various upgrades I did to the bike. Then I started reading about these ebikes, specifically the Fat Tired ebikes and got interested in them. An inquiry to a ebike dealer in Wisconsin last February of 2017 and with a deal too good to pass up, well, my Haibike Full Fatsix has since relegated the Fatboy to a corner inside the garage. 5100 miles and counting. Everytime I got on the Fatboy for a ride, I smiled, it was so much fun. The Haibike simply multiplies that fun feeling to a whole nother level that I can't explain to a non-ebike riding person. You really have to try it to understand what I'm talking about here.

I managed a ride of over 80 miles on the Fatboy, buried inside that Fatbiking and Health thread, a few seasons back. Lotsa long distance rides, as well, scattered about. About 3 weeks ago, I did 95 miles on the Haibike, again detailed in the FB&H thread. It took a few days for me to recover from that Fatboy ride. The Haibike ride, done in the Eco and Eco+ plus settings, did not leave me feeling completely drained afterwards. Now, I understand there will be a select few from the anti-ebike camp who will assume that Eco or +Eco is like a magic bullet of power assist. Trust me, it is not. You feel every one of those near 60 pounds my bike weighs. But what riding the Haibike has done for me in the year and change of ownership is that it has built up my stamina and riding strength in incremental steps.

And fwiw, I'm a cardiac patient myself.....

PS: Ya know, I think I'm gonna have to get out and do a century ride on that Fatbike, just to say to myself it can be done, at that, on a 60 pound fatbike, running a 400wh battery. Should be easy enough to do, since I had about 18% battery juice left after that 95 miler....


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

life behind bars said:


> Do you build these for a *profit?* If you do my bs meter is pretty big too. Just sayin.


Now you sound like my wife. She thinks I ought to charge for what I am doing. I just enjoy it.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

chazpat said:


> So you're telling me you had a 400 lb guy riding a class 1 ebike on mountain bike trails? Not sure I'm buying that.


Start out in a big paved parking lot! Progress to flat paved bike path, hopefully no todllers no dogs. Progress to paved bike paths with hills and people. Then some roads and people.

Single track? they are tickled pink just to be on a bike and on a believable path back to health. The guy that was 410 lbs (my nephew) now 230 is young. Only 42 and has dabbled a bit with single track on his regular mountain bike. The ages I have worked with so far are 42yo to 97yo.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> That is awesome and Kudo's to you and those you are training for finding a more out of the box approach to fitness than riding a stationary bike in the gym.
> 
> At what point in their training do you remove the assist and put them on a pedal bike? I imagine it would be case by case, but is there a certain target weight or target HR you are looking for before you feel they are healthy enough to ditch the motor?


I don't do anything. I empower, the magic just seems to take over from that point.

Of the people I have built e bikes for so far most of them will probably never transition to a regular bike, they are simply past that point. I started out helping friends who use to have it and are down an out, not wanting to participate in life anymore.

Examples: 82 years old, stage 4 pancreatic/stomach cancer 3 year survivor in remission but very weak. 80 years old, stage 4 liver cancer, 5 year survivor not in remission but hanging in there. 79 years old type I diabetic since youth, some heart issues. 79 years old, pacemaker and A-fib drugs, back on bike today. 65 years old, stage 4 esophageal cancer in remission. 67 years old, good health but orthopedic issues. 97 years old in fair health, My mother. 70 years old in good health, now riding regular bike some. 55 years old was 325 lb., now 285lb in fairly good health, my brother.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Would you consider these people to be capable of handling a crash or mechanical failure on the trail?


Nope but they do.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

MikeTowpathTraveler said:


> PS: Ya know, I think I'm gonna have to get out and do a century ride on that Fatbike, just to say to myself it can be done, at that, on a 60 pound fatbike, running a 400wh battery. Should be easy enough to do, since I had about 18% battery juice left after that 95 miler....


Where do you live? Wondering if you are close. I built a Motobecane titanium fat bike for myself. Love it and put on over 5k miles. Planning first long overnight ride.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

PierreR said:


> Start out in a big paved parking lot! Progress to flat paved bike path, hopefully no todllers no dogs. Progress to paved bike paths with hills and people. Then some roads and people.
> 
> Single track? they are tickled pink just to be on a bike and on a believable path back to health. The guy that was 410 lbs (my nephew) now 230 is young. Only 42 and has dabbled a bit with single track on his regular mountain bike. The ages I have worked with so far are 42yo to 97yo.


Most if not all of us are fine with ebikes on pavement, especially if they are being used to replace a car. Our concerns are on the trails and the idea that some people have that ebikes should just be allowed anywhere regular bikes are allowed, with no consideration of that trails particular situation.

Kudos to you for helping these overweight people. I commented around here somewhere the other day that I enjoy sometimes riding multiuse paths and seeing the kids and newbie bike riders discovering the fun of cycling so I can understand the happiness you receive assisting these people and seeing them progress and make accomplishments. It sounds like your family has a culture of bad diet, something that is very difficult to break out of and not pass down the line when you grew up that way.

There are all kinds of claims from both sides around here in regards to emtbs. Some claim that emtb riders are mostly mtb riders. Some claim they are mostly elderly. Without any real statistics, we don't really know. And who is riding emtbs ten years from now is yet to be seen (obviously).


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

"Ebikes are getting people fit."

Yeah, and frozen yogurt is getting people thinner.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Miker J said:


> "Ebikes are getting people fit."
> 
> Yeah, and frozen yogurt is getting people thinner.


Give me two cheeseburgers, a large fry and oh ya a diet coke!


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

chazpat said:


> It sounds like your family has a culture of bad diet, something that is very difficult to break out of and not pass down the line when you grew up that way.


Not really. Family size has a lot to do with having a few out of shape individuals. My 97 year old mother has 83 living descendants between children, grand children, great grand children and great great grand children.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

chazpat said:


> Most if not all of us are fine with ebikes on pavement.


If you mean sharing space with pedestrians then no, I don't. Fat people on fifty-pound bikes hitting people at high speed sounds bad.

In the UK it is illegal to ride bikes on the pavement/sidewalk. People do it all the time though and as long as they are traveling slowly, barely more than walking pace, the police ignore it. In fact I've seen the police ride bikes on the pavement several times. If you hit someone though you will be prosecuted. Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of cases where cyclists have gone to jail for hitting and killing pedestrians.

How do you make the collision more dangerous? Well increasing speed and mass will do it. Add the fact that the riders are inexperienced and it sounds like a bad recipe to me.

Why is there no button to neg-rep an entire thread?


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## Robopotomus (Oct 6, 2013)

PierreR said:


> Up until I really started playing with e-bikes and working with your so called "lazy out of shape Americans." I pretty much had the same opinion as you guys which kinda tells me how much experience you have with e-bikes and their allure.
> 
> I now call them health bikes and see them as a very sophisticated piece of exercise equipment and not as some easy way for a slob to gain access to trails that require skill.
> 
> ...


Brilliant, this is exactly what I was getting at. I have managed to reduce the assiste level down to eco+ and often no assist. My goals is to use zero assist most of the time, but having the equivalent lung functionality of less than one lung that me be just a goal. Keep up this excellent work.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> If you mean sharing space with pedestrians then no, I don't. Fat people on fifty-pound bikes hitting people at high speed sounds bad.
> 
> In the UK it is illegal to ride bikes on the pavement/sidewalk. People do it all the time though and as long as they are traveling slowly, barely more than walking pace, the police ignore it. In fact I've seen the police ride bikes on the pavement several times. If you hit someone though you will be prosecuted. Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of cases where cyclists have gone to jail for hitting and killing pedestrians.
> 
> ...


Well, I guess again it is situation dependent. I'm mostly talking about multiuser paths, bike lanes and greenways so it really depends on the amount of current traffic. And unfortunately, the powers that be set the speed cutoff in the US at 20mph vs the 15.5 in Europe; doesn't sound like much difference in terms of an automobile but huge on a shared path. I was in a discussion with an ebiker who though that was too slow as he thought regular cyclists travel around at 28mph. I gave him some links to average speeds and he came back with speeds of Tour de France riders and said that they must train on multiuser paths (yes, he really did).

Time will tell. If ebikers abuse the pavement and cause problems, at least it will be easier to restrict them there than it would be on trails. Though they are working harder and harder to make them "stealth".

There is talk of changing to being able to up vote or down vote posts rather than the current rep system. Maybe if a thread gets enough down votes it will be locked?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

PierreR said:


> I don't do anything. I empower, the magic just seems to take over from that point.
> 
> Of the people I have built e bikes for so far most of them will probably never transition to a regular bike, they are simply past that point. I started out helping friends who use to have it and are down an out, not wanting to participate in life anymore.
> 
> Examples: 82 years old, stage 4 pancreatic/stomach cancer 3 year survivor in remission but very weak. 80 years old, stage 4 liver cancer, 5 year survivor not in remission but hanging in there. 79 years old type I diabetic since youth, some heart issues. 79 years old, pacemaker and A-fib drugs, back on bike today. 65 years old, stage 4 esophageal cancer in remission. 67 years old, good health but orthopedic issues. 97 years old in fair health, My mother. 70 years old in good health, now riding regular bike some. 55 years old was 325 lb., now 285lb in fairly good health, my brother.


So your brother is probably the closest person in age to the age group the eMTB's are being marketed toward. While what you are doing is very commendable, I do not believe it represents the average eBiker.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

richwolf said:


> No, I am waiting for the chairlift to be put in!
> 
> I was using the word cripple as a euphemism.
> 
> ...


I 100% disagree. Ebikes will get more people out. Please come ride with me. I've rode bicycles since my huffy. You're making assumptions with zero experience, coach.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

richwolf said:


> This is more bullshit. I have an e-bike that I don't use. I know full well how people use them and it generally isn't to work up a sweat. If you are so into working out why not just ditch the motor in the first place? Hey just look at all the calories I am burning by just typing on this thread! Computers get people moving and in shape too!
> 
> Hey I will post a picture of my old ass self if you post one of you. Come back here in a couple of years and tell us how much better shape you are in.
> 
> Well enough of my pontificating. Have fun getting into shape the E-bike way.


Ok coach. I don't really care to see your old ass body. Dude, I've ridden bicycles my whole life and added an ebike to my stable. Am I off the team?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

PierreR said:


> Up until I really started playing with e-bikes and working with your so called "lazy out of shape Americans." I pretty much had the same opinion as you guys which kinda tells me how much experience you have with e-bikes and their allure.
> 
> I now call them health bikes and see them as a very sophisticated piece of exercise equipment and not as some easy way for a slob to gain access to trails that require skill.
> 
> ...


Good for you. Lots of sharks in the water here, occasionally a new one swims in. This isn't the ebike forum, it's the anti ebike forum FYI.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> If you mean sharing space with pedestrians then no, I don't. Fat people on fifty-pound bikes hitting people at high speed sounds bad.
> 
> In the UK it is illegal to ride bikes on the pavement/sidewalk. People do it all the time though and as long as they are traveling slowly, barely more than walking pace, the police ignore it. In fact I've seen the police ride bikes on the pavement several times. If you hit someone though you will be prosecuted. Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of cases where cyclists have gone to jail for hitting and killing pedestrians.
> 
> ...


Dude, your first paragraph completely sums up your make up. Really? Judge people lately? Are you that shallow? You have a whole crowd here that joins you. Congrats.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Mr Pig said:


> If you mean sharing space with pedestrians then no, I don't. Fat people on fifty-pound bikes hitting people at high speed sounds bad.
> 
> In the UK it is illegal to ride bikes on the pavement/sidewalk. People do it all the time though and as long as they are traveling slowly, barely more than walking pace, the police ignore it. In fact I've seen the police ride bikes on the pavement several times. If you hit someone though you will be prosecuted. Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of cases where cyclists have gone to jail for hitting and killing pedestrians.
> 
> ...


If you don't like the thread, leave. Simple. But before you go please tell us how much you are enjoying your emtb or ebike. I don't post on Ferrari forums because I don't own one. The anti ebike crowd knows the inevitable and will use every argument they can find. No matter if it upsets their fellow cyclists or not. Really pety man.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

richwolf said:


> Give me two cheeseburgers, a large fry and oh ya a diet coke!


Oh, you forgot. SUPER SIZE IT. FYI, I normally order 3 cheeseburgers, after all, I don't need any fitness to hammer on my ebike. It just magically finds its way around. It's a hella more upper body workout than ANY other bicycle.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> It's a hella more upper body workout than ANY other bicycle.


Bicycles don't really work the upper body, electric bikes do?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> . It's a hella more upper body workout than ANY other bicycle.


Puhleeeze!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Bicycles don't really work the upper body, electric bikes do?


Yeah man, the weight is what does it. Manuals, bunny hops etc. when your riding gnar, it's a great upper body workout.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

life behind bars said:


> Puhleeeze!


Um, yup.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Are we fitness police or cyclists? Some people really ought to get off their high horses. We’re all fast, until someone smokes our ass. Maybe seek aerobics and fitness forums. None of ya getting paid to ride.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Goid for you. Lots of sharks in the water here, occasionally a new one swims in. This isn't the ebike forum, it's the anti ebike forum FYI.


I have witnessed nothing but positive changes within this forum. As far as e-bike haters goes, I have seen a drop in this forum of about 75% since it's inception. There are a few here whom have made a complete turn around in their attitudes here or at least give the benefit of the doubt. I would call that remarkable. A good e bike will put a big smile on your face. e bikes hook you pretty easily, I went from 1,400 miles a year to 5,000 miles a year.

Opinion: E-bikes should be designed as assist only meaning that the harder you pedal or work, the less help you get. The upper limit should be 500-750 watts. What this means is that if you are not capable of producing over 500 watts yourself on a 500 watt bike you are not going to go any faster or climb any better than 500 watts, pedal easy or pedal hard. The fit guy riding a regular bike next to you that can deliver bursts greater than a 1000 watts is going to blast by your sorry ass e bike on a climb. You would not get to add 500 watts additional to your own power.

Every e-bike that I have built works this way. That is much better for getting fit. The natural competitive nature of humans means they subconsciously pedal harder to go faster even when they know consciously that it doesn't work that way on a well designed e bike. Opinion: throttles are dangerous and cheating except for the handicap.

Above all remember that there will always be violators to everything put in place. I have seen motocross bikes on mtb trails. Liberty and Freedom are not a given. Both work only when there is a reciprocal fiduciary responsibility in practice.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Some people really ought to get off their high horses.


Uhmm, yeah try it.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

J.B. Weld said:


> Bicycles don't really work the upper body, electric bikes do?


Yup, just lift one of them onto a transport bike rack. Tongue in Cheek of course.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

life behind bars said:


> Uhmm, yeah try it.


Wait, ya'll aren't the fittest badasses on the mtn? Some posters here are very judgmental of others and don't even know them.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Are we fitness police or cyclists? Some people really ought to get off their high horses.


One of my favorite thing to do is spend a Sunday heckling people on the trails who aren't pushing their max heart rates, usually while astride a bigass horse.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> One of my favorite thing to do is spend a Sunday heckling people on the trails who aren't pushing their max heart rates, usually while astride a bigass horse.


Awesome ? I'd give those fat lazy cripples a big a** fine, especially if they're not riding a SS hard tail with bar ends.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Yeah man, the weight is what does it. Manuals, bunny hops etc. when your riding gnar, it's a great upper body workout.


A warning: Internal e-bike battery technology at present is not robust enough for shock loads and is getting worse with higher power densities. I would not consider an off the shelf e-bike suitable for shock load riding without substantial modification of battery protection and mounting. Flickability is also seriously hampered. Great for adding stability for the less fit but bad for throwing a bike around.

When I leave go of the e fatbike and climb onto my S-Works Stumpy 27.5 it always seems as touchy as a pregnant wort hog for a while.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

PierreR said:


> A warning: Internal e-bike battery technology at present is not robust enough for shock loads and is getting worse with higher power densities. I would not consider an off the shelf e-bike suitable for shock load riding without substantial modification of battery protection and mounting. Flickability is also seriously hampered. Great for adding stability for the less fit but bad for throwing a bike around.
> 
> When I leave go of the e fatbike and climb onto my S-Works Stumpy 27.5 it always seems as touchy as a pregnant wort hog for a while.


I have zero issues with my Focus Jam2 29er. It has a 360w internal battery and you can mount another 360w on top. It's the only ebike I've ever ridden or owned that I can actually ride a wheelie on!


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Gutch said:


> I have zero issues with my Focus Jam2 29er. It has a 360w internal battery and you can mount another 360w on top. It's the only ebike I've ever ridden or owned that I can actually ride a wheelie on!


You can talk to me all you want to about it. The only way for you to know for sure is to read your manual and the warranty exclusions for how the bike should be ridden.

Cordless power tool manuals all tell you do not use the battey after dropping the battery without properlly checking the battery first, whatever properly means.

Do your own research on how fragile 18650 cells actually are. Especially when they push higher than 3000 ma/hr


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I’ll leave that to the engineers that designed my bike and their warranty. I guess I’ll have to scrub harder on my jumps.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

PierreR said:


> I have witnessed nothing but positive changes within this forum. As far as e-bike haters goes, I have seen a drop in this forum of about 75% since it's inception. There are a few here whom have made a complete turn around in their attitudes here or at least give the benefit of the doubt. I would call that remarkable. A good e bike will put a big smile on your face. e bikes hook you pretty easily, I went from 1,400 miles a year to 5,000 miles a year.
> 
> Opinion: E-bikes should be designed as assist only meaning that the harder you pedal or work, the less help you get. The upper limit should be 500-750 watts. What this means is that if you are not capable of producing over 500 watts yourself on a 500 watt bike you are not going to go any faster or climb any better than 500 watts, pedal easy or pedal hard. The fit guy riding a regular bike next to you that can deliver bursts greater than a 1000 watts is going to blast by your sorry ass e bike on a climb. You would not get to add 500 watts additional to your own power.
> 
> ...


Ya good luck with implementing any rules as far as output is concerned!
People have been modding motors forever and e-bikes won't be any different.

And with your encounter group unless you stress a healthy diet then you are just pissing in the wind.

Hey I just heard they invented an electronic walking machine that hooks up to your legs and does the walking for you. Remember any movement is better than none and they are coming out with a multi level assist unit that you can dial up or down as the requirement dictate. Now you too can do the Grand Canyon rim to rim to rim in record time!


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Gutch said:


> Wait, ya'll aren't the fittest badasses on the mtn? Some posters here are very judgmental of others and don't even know them.


Gutch you are getting in an argument with everyone else on this thread and even with people who have e-bikes. You are judging us and we are judging you. It works both ways you know. If you want to be a lazy ass be me guest.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

It’s the same broken record.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

richwolf said:


> Gutch you are getting in an argument with everyone else on this thread and even with people who have e-bikes. You are judging us and we are judging you. It works both ways you know. If you want to be a lazy ass be me guest.


🍔🍟🔌🍺😂


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I like how fat unmotivated people want everyone to respect them and to have unfettered access to everything. Well it don't work that way, you earn respect and access. If you can't control your pie hole then seek help.

I get so upset looking around at fat people raising fat kids who can't get out the their own way to save their life. 

Yes it is a broken record but perhaps one that needs to be replayed.

I would rather have a hard ass be responsible for my kids welfare than some namby pamby who gives into their every desire.

Then they get all these obese and lifestyle related diseases and want everyone to do whatever it takes to save their lives regardless of the cost.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Look at this obesity chart: https://ourworldindata.org/obesity

And I would bet e-bikes won't make a difference other than when people trade in their real bikes for e-bikes and make them fatter still.

I still got some other music to play ya!


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Listen, I’m a fast in shape mtbr that rides my ebike occasionally for a different experience. It’s great fun and I haul ass, I’m a very experienced cyclist. I’ve spent more time in the woods being a lumberjack than most people will in their lifetime. My family eats healthy, my pantry is full of HAMMER nutrition and I ride in some pretty gnarly places. I’m NOT the fastest or the fittest rider out there. I’m not getting paid to ride and it’s not my job. I know a few emtbrs and everyone of them rides mtbs, road bikes and are fit and can haul the mail. It bothers me when other cyclists dis on people for what they ride and what their lifestyle should be. Rant over.


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## Robopotomus (Oct 6, 2013)

Gutch said:


> Listen, I'm a fast in shape mtbr that rides my ebike occasionally for a different experience. It's great fun and I haul ass, I'm a very experienced cyclist. I've spent more time in the woods being a lumberjack than most people will in their lifetime. My family eats healthy, my pantry is full of HAMMER nutrition and I ride in some pretty gnarly places. I'm NOT the fastest or the fittest rider out there. I'm not getting paid to ride and it's not my job. I know a few emtbrs and everyone of them rides mtbs, road bikes and are fit and can haul the mail. It bothers me when other cyclists dis on people for what they ride and what their lifestyle should be. Rant over.


I agree. Ride bike, enjoy, respect others. End of.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

richwolf said:


> I like how fat unmotivated people want everyone to respect them and to have unfettered access to everything. Well it don't work that way, you earn respect and access. If you can't control your pie hole then seek help.
> 
> I get so upset looking around at fat people raising fat kids who can't get out the their own way to save their life.
> 
> Yes it is a broken record but perhaps one that needs to be replayed.


You do appear to have an issue with fat people. You sound like a broken record that really would like to do something about it but, your conclusions have pushed you into and ineffective frustrating corner.

I have not encountered to many fat people whom like being fat and out of shape. Most of them have developed coping mechanisms and defenses against the rhetoric and broken record you keep trying to sell.

All of your internal good intentions and superior knowledge are of no use to them as you cannot communicate on their wavelength. You are failing to reach them and through your own frustration at your own inability to make a difference you are developing your own defenses in the form of broken record ridicule. I can see right through it that you care.

You are very right in your assessment. They need help all right and they know it. There is real fear on their part of opening up to fail once again and they are not about to give you the time of day without belief there is hope. Become your own therapist. The most challenging and rewarding thing you could every do is learn how to be that effective help you talk about as if its going to materialize out of thin air. They are crying for help, can you deliver.

It has taken me 20 years and lots of sole searching to go from your position to becoming a truly effective mentor. I had to learn to listen first to figure out how to communicate.

I am no push over. I don't feel sorry for them, I don't buy all their excuses, I don't let them get away with feeding me self pity they don't really believe themselves. I'm not judgmental, I'm there to listen, I have multiple solutions, I want results and I intend to make them believe in their own abilities. That is the way I operate. I remove obstacles, I bait with easy fun exciting steps, I don't pat them on the back and don't want them to pat me on the back. They do it, not me. I open more doors of opportunity, excitement and fun than they can close.

No! I do not have much use for the lazy or arrogant fat outta shapes. I don't have to figure out whom to help. All I have to do is have fun in their face, be non braggadocious, be non judgmental, be damned serious and believable in my ability to include them. I don't brush them off and have a way around every excuse, I call them out and talk realistic approaches. Above all I act like its no big deal to help them experience what they know in their envious hearts they want to do. I bait their curiosity and open that little door of hope.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> I think the consensus is that disabled should be able to use e-bikes as OPDMDs under the ADA act. Which they already are in non-federally managed trail systems. I would imagine most have no problem with extending that exemption to federal lands; I know I don't. Of course, being 'unfit' is NOT a qualifying disability.
> 
> Other consensus is that it the whole disability access issue is nothing but a red herring, usually brought up by people lacking the knowledge of the laws already in place covering it.


Fair enough on your first point, but obesity that has a physical impairment element can be used to qualify as disability. If the consensus is to treat electric assist as a bicycle for disabled, then why aren't the bikes allowed under the ADA yet (or are they)?

You lost me at "other consensus", can there be multiple? Care to provide an example because it makes little sense to me.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

figofspee said:


> ..but obesity that has a physical impairment element can be used to qualify as disability...


I think it is insulting to people with genuine disability to put people who eat too much in the same category.


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## LargeMan (May 20, 2017)

Gutch said:


> Listen, I'm a fast in shape mtbr that rides my ebike occasionally for a different experience. It's great fun and I haul ass, I'm a very experienced cyclist. I've spent more time in the woods being a lumberjack than most people will in their lifetime. My family eats healthy, my pantry is full of HAMMER nutrition and I ride in some pretty gnarly places. I'm NOT the fastest or the fittest rider out there. I'm not getting paid to ride and it's not my job. I know a few emtbrs and everyone of them rides mtbs, road bikes and are fit and can haul the mail. It bothers me when other cyclists dis on people for what they ride and what their lifestyle should be. Rant over.


Good post, except ebikers are not cyclists.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

If that’s your perception, fine.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Gutch, Hammer products are now health food?? What a bunch of ****. It is full of maltodextrin and totally processed.

Drunks, meth addicts and food addicts share a lot of the same traits. It is common for people to disparage drunks and drug addicts but don't dare say anything to obese people cause it is "fat shaming".

Corporations don't care about your health. They are just looking at belly share and hoping to get you addicted to their foods.

Back in the 50's kids were out of shape and I believe in the 60's there was a presidential commission to get kids fit again. They tested kids and put them in a percentile. I guess we couldn't do that today because it might hurt poor Johnny's feelings!

We have a bad food and obesity problem in this country. A third of the kids are obese and the figures our going up yearly. 

E-bikes, electric skateboards and electric scooters aren't going to do anything to change it.

Ya Gutch go blow by real bikers on your motorcycle to prove how manly your are!


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

richwolf said:


> It is common for people to disparage drunks and drug addicts but don't dare say anything to obese people cause it is "fat shaming".


This is true. Being fat is socially acceptable today and it's not helping anyone. While I agree that eBikes can play a valuable role in helping disabled people retain an active lifestyle, for the majority of users they fit in with the destructive direction society is heading in.

But you know what? Feck em! I am not responsible for your health, just mine. My only complaint about eBikes is that they might interfere with that.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

richwolf said:


> Gutch, Hammer products are now health food?? What a bunch of ****. It is full of maltodextrin and totally processed.
> 
> Drunks, meth addicts and food addicts share a lot of the same traits. It is common for people to disparage drunks and drug addicts but don't dare say anything to obese people cause it is "fat shaming".
> 
> ...


Option A go ride a pedelec bike, Option B play Nintendo. Which obese child will get the better workout in? A or B? I agree we have an obesity problem. I'm not the one running around calling everybody fat. Do your thing and ride on, I'm done talking to you.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Gutch said:


> Which obese child will get the better workout in? A or B?


C. The kid who does what children have done for decades and rides a normal, human-powered bicycle.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Mr Pig said:


> C. The kid who does what children have done for decades and rides a normal, human-powered bicycle.


Yes, Occam's Razor, "the simplest solution tends to be the right one".


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Gutch said:


> Option A go ride a pedelec bike, Option B play Nintendo. Which obese child will get the better workout in? A or B? I agree we have an obesity problem. I'm not the one running around calling everybody fat. Do your thing and ride on, I'm done talking to you.


Where did I call "everyone" fat????

I pointed to studies where it is like a third but hey it is moving towards 50 percent!

I like option C!


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> C. The kid who does what children have done for decades and rides a normal, human-powered bicycle.


Nuff said, we can see how well that is working. The last time that most kids ride a bike is when they get their drivers licence.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

PierreR said:


> Nuff said, we can see how well that is working.


It used to work just fine. Before people became too pathetic to partake in leisure activities that did not involve electrical assistance.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Mr Pig said:


> It used to work just fine. Before people became too pathetic to partake in leisure activities that did not involve electrical assistance.


Never understood that leap.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

My son had an online fitness class over the summer, also a health class. They gave him a Polaris watch and he had to track his activities. One lesson, not sure which class, talked about kids developing good exercise habits when they are young being more likely to carry that over into adulthood.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

chazpat said:


> My son had an online fitness class over the summer, also a health class. They gave him a Polaris watch and he had to track his activities. One lesson, not sure which class, talked about kids developing good exercise habits when they are young being more likely to carry that over into adulthood.


We as a nation have failed at passing that on.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

figofspee said:


> Fair enough on your first point, but obesity that has a physical impairment element can be used to qualify as disability. If the consensus is to treat electric assist as a bicycle for disabled, then why aren't the bikes allowed under the ADA yet (or are they)?


Ebikes are allowed under the ADA, but it doesn't apply to federal lands (AFAIK). As far as determining whether someone's obesity qualifies as a disability, that's between them and their doctor; not for me to say.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

LargeMan said:


> Good post, except ebikers are not cyclists.





richwolf said:


> We have a bad food and obesity problem in this country. A third of the kids are obese and the figures our going up yearly.
> 
> E-bikes, electric skateboards and electric scooters aren't going to do anything to change it.


Ever consider that there are people out there who actually take part regularly in more than one single solitary activity in their lives?

Amazing, but true!

My kid prefers riding stuff with motors. Actually, should say LOVES riding stuff with motors. It's his main activity. Willing to bet he's in better shape than most of the fitness police wannabes here, as well as their kids. And a better bicycle rider when he feels like it too.

Worry about your own ****.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> We as a nation have failed at passing that on.


I'm trying. My 20 year old daughter loves to trail run and now she wants to get a bike, which I'm afraid will get stolen since she's at college; not just for around campus but for riding. She's run a good number of 5K, 10K and ~5 mile trails races with me; she's even won her age group a couple of times.

My 16 year old son is on year round swim team, pretty much forced by his mother though he has grown to like it. He was running for the fitness class and sometimes bike riding. I suggested he could run a 5K with me this fall and he replied, "ok, as long as I can walk some.":madman:

I did get him out for 20 miles on the road bikes last weekend.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

chazpat said:


> I'm trying. My 20 year old daughter loves to trail run and now she wants to get a bike, which I'm afraid will get stolen since she's at college; not just for around campus but for riding. She's run a good number of 5K, 10K and ~5 mile trails races with me; she's even won her age group a couple of times.
> 
> My 16 year old son is on year round swim team, pretty much forced by his mother though he has grown to like it. He was running for the fitness class and sometimes bike riding. I suggested he could run a 5K with me this fall and he replied, "ok, as long as I can walk some.":madman:
> 
> I did get him out for 20 miles on the road bikes last weekend.


You've had more success than I have, congrats.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ever consider that there are people out there who actually take part regularly in more than one single solitary activity in their lives?
> 
> Amazing, but true!
> 
> ...


Hey, I bike, swim, hike, play horseshoes, ski, windsurf (years ago), kayak and canoe and sail. Good at some, decent at others, suck at most, but I ain't turning to a motor for all my recreational needs like many do.

I am willing to race your kid just for fun. Don't care if I win or lose. I coach high school kids and the rule is if that can't stay in front of me they can't train out on the road or on the trails with the team. Of course that isn't setting the bar very high for them.

And mofo if you would take your own advice you wouldn't be worrying about the "fitness police"


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

chazpat said:


> I'm trying. My 20 year old daughter loves to trail run and now she wants to get a bike, which I'm afraid will get stolen since she's at college; not just for around campus but for riding. She's run a good number of 5K, 10K and ~5 mile trails races with me; she's even won her age group a couple of times.
> 
> My 16 year old son is on year round swim team, pretty much forced by his mother though he has grown to like it. He was running for the fitness class and sometimes bike riding. I suggested he could run a 5K with me this fall and he replied, "ok, as long as I can walk some.":madman:
> 
> I did get him out for 20 miles on the road bikes last weekend.


My one daughter was exposed throughout life to be active. She didn't want to do somethings but we pretty much gave her no choice. Baby seat, trail a bike, tandem, her own bike and then she said "dad I don't like biking" Fine I said but you are doing something active and you have to decide what it is. She took up running and liked it. Several years ago she said she wanted to start biking again and loves it. She even brings her bike up when she visits. Well over half her friends are not active and overweight some extremely obese. Then their parents say, I wish my kid was as active as yours. Well if you don't work at it or plant the seed when they are young then you are doing a poor job of parenting.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

For having no interest in ebikes or anything motor, you sure do post a lot in the ebike forums, why?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

richwolf said:


> Hey, I bike, swim, hike, play horseshoes, ski, windsurf (years ago), kayak and canoe and sail. Good at some, decent at others, suck at most, but I ain't turning to a motor for all my recreational needs like many do.
> 
> I am willing to race your kid just for fun. Don't care if I win or lose. I coach high school kids and the rule is if that can't stay in front of me they can't train out on the road or on the trails with the team. Of course that isn't setting the bar very high for them.
> 
> And mofo if you would take your own advice you wouldn't be worrying about the "fitness police"


Not worried about anything, just not a fan of judgmental and arrogant people in general.

I'm sure you'd do very well in an XC race against a kid on a BMX bike. Congrats! You can go right on feeling superior, since it obviously means a lot to you.
But I didn't say faster, I said better. There's more to riding bikes than sitting and pedaling and measuring up BMI, believe it or not.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Well, he wants to race your kid and compare physiques with me. Odd dude.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

chazpat said:


> I'm trying. My 20 year old daughter loves to trail run and now she wants to get a bike, which I'm afraid will get stolen since she's at college; not just for around campus but for riding. She's run a good number of 5K, 10K and ~5 mile trails races with me; she's even won her age group a couple of times.
> 
> My 16 year old son is on year round swim team, pretty much forced by his mother though he has grown to like it. He was running for the fitness class and sometimes bike riding. I suggested he could run a 5K with me this fall and he replied, "ok, as long as I can walk some.":madman:
> 
> I did get him out for 20 miles on the road bikes last weekend.


Something like the folding Kryponites or ABUS locks for longer parking and a Hiplok Z-Lok to encourage lock usage for the I'm just running in for a few seconds scenarios could help with that. I know several people here that use that regimen with great success.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ever consider that there are people out there who actually take part regularly in more than one single solitary activity in their lives?
> 
> Amazing, but true!
> 
> ...


I think most of us would have done that as a kid, given the opportunity, Your kid will be fine, its the kids that are growing up sitting in the house playing video games that, when they are 25 and buy an ebike, will overrun the trails and act like they are playing video game.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Sadly my one kid is obese. I pushed her right up until she got her drivers license and then I was toast. 
In the last month she is showing interest in things we use to do and gatting control of her health. She is 31 and a moth ago finished up a tough residency. She now has a fairly normal 40-45 hour week and doen't know what to do with free time. Up until now free time meant sleep. 
She is now in Cleveland Clinic Miller Family heart and Vascular Institute. Being overweight probably is not the best image. 

She asked me today about building her a bike. She just moved into a small penthouse in downtown Cleveland Ohio that overlooks Lake Erie. The main bike paths go right through the common areas within the complex she lives in. The building is full of active urban melenials. 

I will build her one with no comment unless she asks. 


My neighbor behind me dropped by today with the comment that I seem to be riding my bike and having a lot of fun. He has had his share of troubles. He has been on disability insurance now for a good 7 years. He was a senior pilot for United Airlines flying the Cleveland, Kennedy, Heathrow route when he developed nuro-musclular problems with his hands. Flying was everything and he withdrew and drank to much. 

He is now wanting to take charge of his health and live again. I let him ride my e bike and he could clearly see why I ride so much. I will have him on one the old guys rides in a week or two. E bikes are an ice breaker. They get people to try again. For that I am unapologetic about e bikes.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

PierreR said:


> For that I am unapologetic about e bikes.


You don't need to be appologetic, you sound like you are doing good work and no one is going to begrudge that.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Something like the folding Kryponites or ABUS locks for longer parking and a Hiplok Z-Lok to encourage lock usage for the I'm just running in for a few seconds scenarios could help with that. I know several people here that use that regimen with great success.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Thanks, I might look into those. Her university is in a very good part of the city so maybe it's not too bad. It's in New England though, so she'd lose a lot of ride time as she is not a cold weather person!


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

chazpat said:


> Thanks, I might look into those. Her university is in a very good part of the city so maybe it's not too bad. It's in New England though, so she'd lose a lot of ride time as she is not a cold weather person!


You're welcome, best case scenario she might not ride trails when cold but might use it to get out of the cold quicker when going to class?

I look at bike security like corporate IT security. A determined attacker who is specifically targeting you has a high chance of eventual success. You have to get it right every time. They have to get it right once. Luckily that's 1% of 1%. For the opportunistic, make money guys you only have to be tougher than the next guy.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Just sitting here thinking about the obese kids problem and it dawned on me that kids don't look at bicycles as a form of exercise at all. They look at a bike as a juvenile form of transportation. A path that is better than walking and inferior to anything with a motor. You talk exercise to a kid, a form of work, then turn around for a second and they are gone. 

One thing kids can't stand is anyone else having more fun and feeling more included than they are feeling. I got to further thinking and realized that adults are generally no different. 

When talking with my neighbor this afternoon, I did not talk about exercising to get fit. I talked about how much fun it was to ride an e bicycle with a group of like minded individuals, enjoy the outdoors and socialize in a healthy way. Something to really look forward to doing. A reason to get up earlier. My enthusiasm for that fun clearly showed through. 

I guess youz guys are right. E bicycling ain't exercise but somehow you end up being a hell of lot more fit than you were and have a hell of a lot of fun doing it. To me, exercise is not fun and therefore I do declare that I ain't exercisin. I'm getting fit by having a blast on my e bicycle.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I think most of us would have done that as a kid, given the opportunity, Your kid will be fine, its the kids that are growing up sitting in the house playing video games that, when they are 25 and buy an ebike, will overrun the trails and act like they are playing video game.


Pretty sure my kid learned how to work transitions from playing Downhill Domination and MX vs ATV when he was little.
He also still plays and mods video games at a pretty 'serious' level and enjoys shooting and editing videos and pics for his Instagram page, where he has over 12,000 followers.

He will still be fine. 
Balance is a thing.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

What's with the generalized judgement of video games? Not everyone treats video games as a retreat from reality, having your perspective twisted to the point that it's hard to cope with real life, preferring the systems in video games. They're an advanced form of art, offering an interactive experience and greater depth than books, music, videos, movies, etc. These forums are a far worse influence than a good single player adventure game, considering such judgement from posters like sfgiantsfan. In multiplayer games, people can develop a skill called "shot-calling", which is extremely valuable skill for working as a productive team, when done right. It's essentially a deep sense for reading situations then formulating counter-strategy/tactics and other decision-making on the spot, and also having the ability to communicate it for effective coordination.

Ebikes can be an even better workout than regular bikes, if you choose to make it so. How do you get a workout riding with slower riders, when you're on your favored superbike? Pedal that 50 lb thing with draggy motor around, without tapping into the fuel source (battery), and try to do bunnyhops and what not on it.

Now that I mentioned these things back to back, it reminds me of how people criticize movie adaptations, claiming that the books are better. Now there's the netflix revolution, which people like to bad mouth. xD People voice their fears over losing their way of life when these new disruptive things catch on, spreading hateful/intolerant propaganda to protect what they have invested in emotionally...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ninjichor said:


> They're an advanced form of art


When well done, agree completely.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ebikes are allowed under the ADA, but it doesn't apply to federal lands (AFAIK). As far as determining whether someone's obesity qualifies as a disability, that's between them and their doctor; not for me to say.


You are right, the ADA does allow for ebike use. The article I found does not mention a Federal exemption but if there is any proof of that, please post. Seems strange that a federal law wouldn't apply to feral land. This would also mean that non assisted bikes are allowed on trails where they are officially banned provided the user physically needs one.
"The ADA regulation makes it clear that an officer can *ask* a rider if the ebike is for disabled use but cannot inquire as to the nature of the disability or demand proof of a disability, so this leaves the question of enforcement wide open."

The purpose of the new regulation (ADA Title II, Sec. 35.137) is to prohibit "discrimination on the basis of disability by public entities." The entities of interest to us are all agencies that administer any public bike path or trail; the law seems to allow no exceptions.

https://electricbikereport.com/amer...ails-to-cyclists-with-disabilities/#more-4045


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

https://www.americantrails.org/reso...wer-driven-mobility-devices-for-accessibility


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

slapheadmofo said:


> https://www.americantrails.org/reso...wer-driven-mobility-devices-for-accessibility


That is an article from 2011 and article i posted is from 2012 and discusses new legislation.


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## figofspee (Jul 19, 2018)

Forest Service Manual 2353.05“Wheelchair or Mobility Device. A device, including one that is battery-powered, that is designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area. A person whose disability requires use of a wheelchair or mobility device may use a wheelchair or mobility device that meets this definition anywhere foot travel is allowed.”

The Forest service appears to use the same language as the ada, so it appears that they are following the same rules even though they are not legally required to. If you are caught riding an ebike on a National Forest trail, you may need to specify that you have a disability or they could write you a ticket.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> They're an advanced form of art, offering an interactive experience and greater depth than books, music, videos, movies, etc.


Completely subjective of course, and I might not disagree about the movies and vids so much but to claim that video games have more depth than great literature or music is a pretty sad statement to me.

JMHO though, I don't really care how others pass their time.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> ...I might not disagree about the movies and vids so much but to claim that video games have more depth than great literature or music is a pretty sad statement to me.


Yeah, the only depth it suggests applies to ones ignorance of great literature.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

figofspee said:


> Forest Service Manual 2353.05"Wheelchair or Mobility Device. A device, including one that is battery-powered, that is designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area. A person whose disability requires use of a wheelchair or mobility device may use a wheelchair or mobility device that meets this definition anywhere foot travel is allowed."
> 
> The Forest service appears to use the same language as the ada, so it appears that they are following the same rules even though they are not legally required to. If you are caught riding an ebike on a National Forest trail, you may need to specify that you have a disability or they could write you a ticket.


Wheelchairs and OPDMDs are not the same thing under ADA.

Forest service seems to have different rules.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Completely subjective of course, and I might not disagree about the movies and vids so much but to claim that video games have more depth than great literature or music is a pretty sad statement to me.


Yeah, I wouldn't go that far. Definitely an art form though. Many times I choose to do a little gaming in my downtime rather than watching the boob tube or dicking around on the internets; some good entertainment to be had.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I play a few with my son. Hell, I had an Atari 2600 growing up. No big deal.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

figofspee said:


> Forest Service Manual 2353.05"Wheelchair or Mobility Device. A device, including one that is battery-powered, that is designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area. A person whose disability requires use of a wheelchair or mobility device may use a wheelchair or mobility device that meets this definition anywhere foot travel is allowed."
> 
> The Forest service appears to use the same language as the ada, so it appears that they are following the same rules even though they are not legally required to. If you are caught riding an ebike on a National Forest trail, you may need to specify that you have a disability or they could write you a ticket.


Are ebikes

" designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion,"

That would solve a lot of arguments here.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Are ebikes
> 
> " designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion,"
> 
> That would solve a lot of arguments here.


Are wheelchairs, are hovearounds? That's what they are marketed and intended for but not what they are designed for. There is nothing inherently unique enough about a mobility impaired person to influence the design parameters. Any individual can use them. Poorly worded statute that leaves the door open for selective enforcement claims if someone attempts to use it in the manner you are.

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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Are ebikes " designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion,"


It could be argued that they are. Perhaps we should rename the eBike forum 'The Physically Impaired Forum'?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

It's actually not all the confusing if you take the time to do a little reading. And comprehending of course.

Certain devices can be restriced from certain trails provided certain requirements are met.
Devices that qualify as wheelchairs have to be allowed anywhere foot travel is allowed.

The American Trails page explains things fairly clearly IMO. I've had conversations with ADA people within the past few years that back up what is spelled out there.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Are ebikes
> 
> " designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion,"
> 
> That would solve a lot of arguments here.


That is where the Forest Service definition differs - the ADA makes a distinction between OPDMDs and wheelchairs, the Forest Service rules kind of combine the two.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

slapheadmofo said:


> It's actually not all the confusing if you take the time to do a little reading. And comprehending of course.
> 
> Certain devices can be restriced from certain trails provided certain requirements are met.
> Devices that qualify as wheelchairs have to be allowed anywhere foot travel is allowed.
> ...


I am well acquainted with the ADA requirements in general and the foot travel item is the catch. This is a guideline intended to prevent discrimination to all users. If a trail does not allow bicycles it would not be discrimination to prevent e-bikes for physically impaired users. The ADA mandate allows usage to certain extents but is liberated from making all trails accessible as the cost and impact to the environment would be too great. As this is up to the land manager they could easily fine a physically impaired user on a trail that was no motorized vehicles because it was not a noted accessible trail. When you go to Yellowstone everything is not accessible there and there is not the expectation that you could use a OPDMD to get into places that maybe you couldn't get in to with a manual wheelchair.

The OPDMD item is an easy way to essentially white wash a very difficult concept. If a trail is bike use ebikes should be allowed under OPDMD usage by someone with a disability. If the trail is not bikes or pedestrian only, the land manager could easily argue that it is not an accessible trail and is not open to OPDMD. It would be hard to argue that this is discrimination as it is still preventing some one that doesn't have access to a OPDMD from using it. The crux of any anti discrimination law is showing that you are being discriminated against. Accessing hiking trail that didn't meet ADA guidelines for accessibility would be hard to argue as discriminatory as the park either has accessible trails that are available or that it would be imprudent and damaging to the environment to make the trail truly accessible to all.

It's a sticky wicket for sure but pitching ADA as a right to use Ebikes somewhere is a slippery slope and lest we forget that to actually get any traction in using the ADA you generally will need a class action discrimination lawsuit raised. Of course California is different but for most other states it will be long legal slope to gain back traction and access using this tactic.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> I am well acquainted with the ADA requirements in general and the foot travel item is the catch. This is a guideline intended to prevent discrimination to all users. If a trail does not allow bicycles it would not be discrimination to prevent e-bikes for physically impaired users. The ADA mandate allows usage to certain extents but is liberated from making all trails accessible as the cost and impact to the environment would be too great. As this is up to the land manager they could easily fine a physically impaired user on a trail that was no motorized vehicles because it was not a noted accessible trail. When you go to Yellowstone everything is not accessible there and there is not the expectation that you could use a OPDMD to get into places that maybe you couldn't get in to with a manual wheelchair.
> 
> The OPDMD item is an easy way to essentially white wash a very difficult concept. If a trail is bike use ebikes should be allowed under OPDMD usage by someone with a disability. If the trail is not bikes or pedestrian only, the land manager could easily argue that it is not an accessible trail and is not open to OPDMD. It would be hard to argue that this is discrimination as it is still preventing some one that doesn't have access to a OPDMD from using it. The crux of any anti discrimination law is showing that you are being discriminated against. Accessing hiking trail that didn't meet ADA guidelines for accessibility would be hard to argue as discriminatory as the park either has accessible trails that are available or that it would be imprudent and damaging to the environment to make the trail truly accessible to all.
> .


The issue of making the trails accessible is quite separate from denying access; allowing access doesn't mean guaranteeing passability.

My understanding based on a number of emails and conversations I had with ADA people while trying to make sense of the whole thing ended up as:

If someone who is disabled wants to take an ATV (for example) on a hiking trail by claiming it is an OPDMD, in order to deny access, the LM would have had to have done a trail inventory and assessment to spell out why it would be an inappropriate OPDMD for that particular trail, and have that assessment on hand. The link I provided above spells out the allowable reasons for denying that access. If no such inventory has been done, access can't be denied.

I'm not a guru on the subject by any means, but I asked about very, very particular situations from experts ADA folks in Washington and got as much clarity as I could, as some HoHs were trying to stymie a trail project we were working on by claiming that the trails HAD to be made wheelchair accessible.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> If a trail does not allow bicycles it would not be discrimination to prevent e-bikes for physically impaired users.


The funny thing is, the way we specifically avoided having to worry about any ADA requirements was to have the trail's primary designation be as a biking trail rather than a hiking trail. Only trails that have a primary designation as a foot travel/hiking trail are subject to the ADA requirments. So, in my local example, we could deny e-bike OPDMD access to the biking trails without doing any sort of assessment, but would have to allow them on the hiking trails or do an inventory and assessment to spell out by which criteria they were deemed to be inappropriate.

Gotta love regulations.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

figofspee said:


> If you are caught riding an ebike on a National Forest trail, you may need to specify that you have a disability or they could write you a ticket.


It appears they don't really care if you specify you have a disability.

http://forums.mtbr.com/trail-building-advocacy/usfs-e-bike-lawsuit-1028784-4.html

Our local parks people don't consider ebikes OPMD, but they will let those claiming disability ride them on non motorized trails.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Confusing layers of rules and regs aside, I really don't think the issue of disabled access is really much more than an interesting aside. The numbers of folks riding e-bikes under an ADA exemption will remain statistically insignificant in the big picture. I'm all for considering e-bikes as OPDMDs across the board myself. Seems like a fantastic use for them. 

My dad is 74 and a mountain biker. He's also a disabled veteran with 20 years service; his physical issues are from exposure to toxins, so you wouldn't look at him and be able to see anything obvious. He also has done more work on MTB trails than easily 98% of the general riding population. He's definitely going to keep doing into until he drops, so if in a few years, a little pedal assist on his fatbike helps him keep hauling chainsaws (and pizzas) out into the woods, IMHO it would take a real dick to have an issue with that. Of course, so far, he's still pedaling on his own, but not everyone in his situation is going to be as determined (stubborn ) as he is. 

My sister also rides regularly, though she keeps it pretty mellow. She's 47 and has Cystic Fibrosis (47 is pretty long in the tooth for someone with CF - she's also stubbon). It affects here digestion (and therefore weight) as well as cutting her lung capacity to somewhere well under 50%. Once again, you wouldn't look at her and see that she's obviously disabled. Some of you it seems would look at her and pretty much dismiss her as fat, lazy, and obviously unfit to share the trails with the likes of your awesome selves, or even breathe the same rarefied air. 

Once again, she chooses to pedal unassisted, but if a little boost is what it would take to keep her getting out on the trails at some point, it'd take a special type of person to get upset about that.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> Confusing layers of rules and regs aside, I really don't think the issue of disabled access is really much more than an interesting aside. The numbers of folks riding e-bikes under an ADA exemption will remain statistically insignificant in the big picture. I'm all for considering e-bikes as OPDMDs across the board myself. Seems like a fantastic use for them.
> 
> My dad is 74 and a mountain biker. He's also a disabled veteran with 20 years service; his physical issues are from exposure to toxins, so you wouldn't look at him and be able to see anything obvious. He also has done more work on MTB trails than easily 98% of the general riding population. He's definitely going to keep doing into until he drops, so if in a few years, a little pedal assist on his fatbike helps him keep hauling chainsaws (and pizzas) out into the woods, IMHO it would take a real dick to have an issue with that. Of course, so far, he's still pedaling on his own, but not everyone in his situation is going to be as determined (stubborn ) as he is.
> 
> ...


I agree with this wholeheartedly. I will also say that unfortunately there are people who are people who are that special.

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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Are wheelchairs, are hovearounds? That's what they are marketed and intended for but not what they are designed for. There is nothing inherently unique enough about a mobility impaired person to influence the design parameters. Any individual can use them. Poorly worded statute that leaves the door open for selective enforcement claims if someone attempts to use it in the manner you are.
> 
> This coming from a group of people that say they don't have motors on their bikes because the vehicle code tells them they are not a motorized vehicle.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfgiantsfan said:


> This coming from a group of people that say they don't have motors on their bikes because the vehicle code tells them they are not a motorized vehicle.


Nice strawman, first, for the umpteenth time, I don't own an e-bike and have no desire to do so, you have a poor memory, maybe get that checked? Second, I would love for you to find a single instance of where I have said or agreed with that. Until then it's safe to assume you are incorrect.

Your issue points back to what you left me negative rep over. You find minutia and detail to be boring. If you want to coherently discuss statutes, policies, etc. you had best be prepared to spend a lot of time dissecting those finer points. Otherwise it's pointless and worthless.

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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Your issue points back to what you left me negative rep over. You find minutia and detail to be boring.


I think it runs deeper than this. Left me negative rep while putting the following words in my mouth. "You don't need an e bike to get fit." Dah! Seems if you own an e bike and comment favorably it this forum, its going to earn you negative rep. Hmmm. This forum does attract the e bike haters.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

So in conclusion:

Some exercise is better than no exercise.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

chazpat said:


> So in conclusion:
> 
> Some exercise is better than no exercise.


This.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

PierreR said:


> I think it runs deeper than this. Left me negative rep while putting the following words in my mouth. "You don't need an e bike to get fit." Dah! Seems if you own an e bike and comment favorably it this forum, its going to earn you negative rep. Hmmm. This forum does attract the e bike haters.


I neg repped your post about how you help people lose weight and acting like the only way it happens is because of an e-bike. You do not need and ebike to get fit. Everything you explained in that story would work with a real bike. They would not need to spend the money on an ebike, they could spend 100 bucks on a used bike and get more of a benefit out of it. It is the same boring story repeated on here hundreds of times. If their only problem is obesity, a regular bike will do just fine.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Nice strawman, first, for the umpteenth time, I don't own an e-bike and have no desire to do so, you have a poor memory, maybe get that checked? Second, I would love for you to find a single instance of where I have said or agreed with that. Until then it's safe to assume you are incorrect.
> 
> Your issue points back to what you left me negative rep over. You find minutia and detail to be boring. If you want to coherently discuss statutes, policies, etc. you had best be prepared to spend a lot of time dissecting those finer points. Otherwise it's pointless and worthless.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I said group of people, you only called me out on my interpretation of that law, never called out jim-bo etc on their interpretation of the VC.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I said group of people, you only called me out on my interpretation of that law,


Well, that would imply that I was part of a group of people to whom that could be attributed. Considering I have never said, agreed with, or will agree with what you attributed to a group you included me in you're just digging your hole deeper.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfgiantsfan said:


> If their only problem is obesity, a regular bike will do just fine.


That's a elementary and simplistic way of looking at it. You're assuming that the desire is to ride a bike. The desire may be to use the bike to explore nature and/or see the sights. An obese person may not be able to accomplish a short jaunt off road without assistance and subsequently give up. The assistance may allow them to go further and convince them to keep with it. Nothing about this conversation is black and white or as overly simplistic as you would like to portray it.

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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I neg repped your post about how you help people lose weight and acting like the only way it happens is because of an e-bike. You do not need and ebike to get fit. Everything you explained in that story would work with a real bike. They would not need to spend the money on an ebike, they could spend 100 bucks on a used bike and get more of a benefit out of it. It is the same boring story repeated on here hundreds of times. If their only problem is obesity, a regular bike will do just fine.


I do not believe that it can be explained to you. You will simply have to run to many birthdays yourself to get past your myoptic views.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tuckerjt07 said:


> That's a elementary and simplistic way of looking at it. You're assuming that the desire is to ride a bike. The desire may be to use the bike to explore nature and/or see the sights. An obese person may not be able to accomplish a short jaunt off road without assistance and subsequently give up. The assistance may allow them to go further and convince them to keep with it. Nothing about this conversation is black and white or as overly simplistic as you would like to portray it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Bam.

It's not just about frigging exercise. 
A hell of a lot of us ride mainly for FUN.
I know I do.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I said group of people, you only called me out on my interpretation of that law, never called out jim-bo etc on their interpretation of the VC.


Jim_bo never offered an interpretation of the VC.

You are just an angry guy with a narrow focus and a poor understanding of facts running around trying to make himself feel superior by giving people grief and neg rep.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Jim_bo said:


> You are just an angry guy with a narrow focus and a poor understanding of facts running around trying to make himself feel superior by giving people grief and neg rep.


I will cut him some slack as I had the same myoptic view when I was younger. I suspect he as never gotten behind the 8 ball health wise and suffered any kind of chronic fatigue, chronic illness or long difficult recovery.

I can just about be certain that by the time he is 150 years old he will have experienced declining health.

Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks.

I told my brother about this thread and his answer was "Tell them nay sayers that I can throw a regular bike further than I am going to ride one." Interesting take on it as I has seen him lift a concert grand piano and put it in the back of a truck. At 6' 4" and 285 lb he has a lot of muscle from rebuilding heavy machinery and needs something like the e bike to loosen up stiffness and balance out muscles. Setting the assist level for light fast pedaling helps him quite a bit after moving heavy parts around all day.

Its not raining, I am going to go cheat for about 30 miles or so on my big fat e bike. All pavement.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

PierreR said:


> Its not raining, I am going to go cheat for about 30 miles or so on my big fat e bike. All pavement.


How many is that in pedal bike miles.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

PierreR said:


> Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks.


I agree. The remedy for all my health issues has been a bicycle, more fun and fulfilling than anything I've found so far.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

There are a good number of very serious cancer survivors and heart attack survivors, etc. on this site that pedal bicycles. Also riders who started out way over weight.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

chazpat said:


> There are a good number of very serious cancer survivors and heart attack survivors, etc. on this site that pedal bicycles. Also riders who started out way over weight.


And that is great for them. However, I'm not sure what your point is...

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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

chazpat said:


> There are a good number of very serious cancer survivors and heart attack survivors, etc. on this site that pedal bicycles. Also riders who started out way over weight.


"Needing" a mobility device is a lot different than simply wanting one. I question the veracity of many of these anecdotal tales that are made on behalf of the "miraculous" e-motorbike. If you want one just say so but making spurious claims about "need" is doing a disservice to people that do have legitimate need. If you're that bad off, get an ADA placard but don't blow smoke to advance an agenda.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> "Needing" a mobility device is a lot different than simply wanting one.


Same goes for mountain bikes. Nobody 'needs' one of those either.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Same goes for mountain bikes. Nobody 'needs' one of those either.


I don't see a lot of claims that anyone does, unlike e-motorbikes.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> I don't see a lot of claims that anyone does, unlike e-motorbikes.


I don't see many claims for e-bikes that use the word need in the Maslow sense either.

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> I don't see a lot of claims that anyone does, unlike e-motorbikes.


So people who choose to play with certain vehicles they don't need are unhappy that other people might choose to play with different vehicles, cuz they don't need them?

Hmmm...I could use an explanation of exactly how that isn't some very f'ed up logic...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> So people who choose to play with certain vehicles they don't need are unhappy that other people might choose to play with different vehicles, cuz they don't need them?
> 
> Hmmm...I could use an explanation of exactly how that isn't some very f'ed up logic...


That's not what was posted. Twisting what was isn't doing anyone service. People making spurious claims about "needing" anything when they don't is the point in case you missed it. I don't care what people want, just don't make claims of needing it to make yourself feel better about being a tool.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> That's not what was posted. Twisting what was isn't doing anyone service. People making spurious claims about "needing" anything when they don't is the point in case you missed it. I don't care what people want, just don't make claims of needing it to make yourself feel better about being a tool.


Making spurious claims while complaining about others making spurious claims. This thread has suddenly got entertaining if not enlightening.

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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

PierreR said:


> Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks.


http://forums.mtbr.com/california-socal/aortic-disection-805994.html

While I realize how much fun an eMTB would be on my local trails, I choose to pedal under my own power and recover without a motor.

Not everyone is looking for the easy way out.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> Not everyone is looking for the easy way out.


This is quote worthy.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> That's not what was posted. Twisting what was isn't doing anyone service. People making spurious claims about "needing" anything when they don't is the point in case you missed it. I don't care what people want, just don't make claims of needing it to make yourself feel better about being a tool.


Okay. So we agree that nobody needs a bike at all, e- or otherwise. 
So everyone riding is riding what they like simply because that's what they like. 
Therefore, no one occupies any sort of high ground as far as who 'needs' or doesn't 'need' anything. 
Am I correct there?

And there is no imperative that I'm aware of decreeing that all leisure time activities need to be based strictly on getting as much exercise as possible, correct again?

So, I guess I'm really missing the point as to why people give a damn how much exercise someone else gets or doesn't get, or how they get it. It's obvious that there are people riding e-bikes and getting some exercise. I don't see how that automatically turns into some sort of challenge for others to start waving their fitness e-dicks around. Maybe some of you guys should go start doing Crossfit comps or something, see who can be The Best Exerciser Ever.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> http://forums.mtbr.com/california-socal/aortic-disection-805994.html
> 
> While I realize how much fun an eMTB would be on my local trails, I choose to pedal under my own power and recover without a motor.
> 
> Not everyone is looking for the easy way out.


Great. 
But so what if some people make different choices than you do?
Not sure how that's anyone else's business but theirs.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Okay. So we agree that nobody needs a bike at all, e- or otherwise.
> So everyone riding is riding what they like simply because that's what they like.
> Therefore, no one occupies any sort of high ground as far as who 'needs' or doesn't 'need' anything.
> Am I correct there?
> ...


Yes, you missed the point.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> Yes, you missed the point.


So, what is it?

Why do you care how much exercise someone else gets or doesn't get, or how they get it?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> So, what is it?
> 
> Why do you care how much exercise someone else gets or doesn't get, or how they get it?


If you missed the point in the first place you won't understand it a second time around.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> If you missed the point in the first place you won't understand it a second time around.


FWIW, I'm not terrible at understanding things, so please...feel free to explain why you care so much about the fitness levels of strangers.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

PierreR said:


> I will cut him some slack as I had the same myoptic view when I was younger. I suspect he as never gotten behind the 8 ball health wise and suffered any kind of chronic fatigue, chronic illness or long difficult recovery.
> 
> I can just about be certain that by the time he is 150 years old he will have experienced declining health.
> 
> ...


Type 1 diabetic. At 36 herniated L4-L5, got so bad I could not walk 50 yards without stopping. I was taking 6-10 Norco/day. One day I had to go get my mail and I jumped on my old bike so I could make it in one shot. I didn't have any pain so I rode to town and back. Within one week I was off the norcs and riding as much as possible. Got fully back in to mtbing and snowboarding. I was feeling so good I started riding dirt bikes again. Right after my 40th bday I rode one right in to a tree. Herniated my C4-C6 and was paralyzed for about 1 hour. Long enough to plan who was going to help me kill myself because I was not going to be a quad. Spent 2 mos in the hospital, had to learn to feed myself and walk all over again. My hands are still numb all the time and its been almost ten years. All my muscle memory was erased. I had to learn to ride a bike again. I still can't snowboard because it is heart breaking for me to have no clue how to ride.

Did it all on a regular mountain bike. I am very happy for the people you know that got help through ebikes but it is very disingenuous to say that it is the only way they could get help. That is all that I am saying, non one needs an ebike to get healthy


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> Okay. So we agree that nobody needs a bike at all, e- or otherwise.
> So everyone riding is riding what they like simply because that's what they like.
> Therefore, no one occupies any sort of high ground as far as who 'needs' or doesn't 'need' anything.
> Am I correct there?
> ...


I think you have hit the nail right on the head!!


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Great.
> But so what if some people make different choices than you do?
> Not sure how that's anyone else's business but theirs.


Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.

Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Well, that would imply that I was part of a group of people to whom that could be attributed. Considering I have never said, agreed with, or will agree with what you attributed to a group you included me in you're just digging your hole deeper.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I said you called me out for my interpretation of the law. You have not called out any pro ebike guys who interpret the law to say their bikes are not motorized. Didn't mean to imply you said it, just that you never called them out.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

Klurejr said:


> Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.
> 
> Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.


But you make the assumption that riding an eBike would be the easy way out. I disagree.

For me, I don't think I have ever regretted going for a ride. I always feel great when I'm done. But the lazy streak in me tries to find excuses as to why I should stay on the couch. Sometimes, I tell myself that "I'll just go for an easy ride". But when I get on my bike, it almost always turns out to be much more than what I planned. I suspect that is true with many people. An eBike may provide incentive to get off of that couch for many people. Once on the bike, the level of exercise is based entirely on the individual and his love for being on two wheels.

I believe that the assumption that riding an eBike is only for the lazy is about as wrong-headed as it can be. By that same logic, riding a dirt-bike should be a leisurely activity. But when I used to ride dirt bikes, I would typically come back from a ride physically spent. Most dirt bikers would likely agree.

I'm sure that there are runners who would argue that riding a bicycle is lazy because it is mechanically assisted transportation. But they would be wrong too.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Klurejr said:


> Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.
> 
> Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.


No, you are correct: people will choose what they want to choose, for their own reasons. I also shared a couple examples of people I know that choose to ride mountain bikes rather than e-bikes, so I get what your saying, but I personally think the 'easy way out' would be to just give up and retire to the couch.

Also I'm sure there are many people with similar experiences that do even more than you, so I guess it would be fair to also say that you're taking the easy way out, comparatively.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I said you called me out for my interpretation of the law. You have not called out any pro ebike guys who interpret the law to say their bikes are not motorized. Didn't mean to imply you said it, just that you never called them out.


No pro eBiker that I have seen has ever said that an eBike is not motorized. Many have made the observation that several states/local governments have decided that they will be treated the same as bicycles for legal/access purposes. Also, I have made the observation that class 1 eBikes do not fit the legal definition of a motorized vehicle. And I am right. But that does not mean that I believe an eBike doesn't have a motor.

It really means nothing when you just make stuff up and then criticize others based on your fantasies. You should try harder to get your facts straight.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.
> 
> Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.


The writer implies the reader infers...

It's also disingenuous to consider an e-bike the easy way out. There are multiple studies, using that term loosely, that show energy expenditure for the same length ride can be the same or higher on an e-bike.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I said you called me out for my interpretation of the law. You have not called out any pro ebike guys who interpret the law to say their bikes are not motorized. Didn't mean to imply you said it, just that you never called them out.


So you're crying because I'm being mean to you? Life isn't fair.

Also, you do understand that asserting something is managed as a non-motorized vehicle is not the same as saying it has no motor, yes? It goes back to the little things that you find boring.

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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

tuckerjt07 said:


> So you're crying because I'm being mean to you? Life isn't fair.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Not crying, just trying to explain my post so you can quit being such a jack about it.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Not crying, just trying to explain my post so you can quit being such a jack about it.


It sounds like crying to me. You basically said you singled me out, you big meanie. As to explaining your post, changing what you said is not explaining. Try to pay more attention to the boring stuff, maybe you won't be so confused next time.

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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Not crying, just trying to explain my post so you can quit being such a jack about it.


When you find yourself in a hole, you should stop digging.


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## Wacha Wacha Wacha (Sep 27, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> This is quote worthy.


Everyone should go watch Beautiful Idiot and realize who they are. Reading this thread, it's clear...

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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

life behind bars said:


> How many is that in pedal bike miles.


I can tell you pretty close. My mileage was 36.8 with an average speed of 14.2. I used 196 watt hours for the ride. That equates to 5.3 watt hours per mile. If I would have used throttle for that route, I would have consumed about 19.2 watt hours per mile. If we take (19.2-5.3)/19.2 X 36.8 we get 26.6 miles equivalent in terms of calories consumed. In terms of joint and muscle movement it would be the full 36.8 miles. I have a cadence of 85 to 100 rpm.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Jim_bo said:


> But you make the assumption that riding an eBike would be the easy way out. I disagree.


Let me re-phrase then.

Riding a bike without a motor is harder and uses more energy than riding a bike with a motor to assist the rider as long as conditions match; length of ride, elevation, etc.

Yes an eBike "can" be a harder workout if you shut off the motor or ride it further or up more elevation.

In my case I generally only have time to ride once a week for about 2 hours. I ride with the same group of friends and am one of the slower climbers, if I got an eBike I could beat them all to the top of the climbs every-time, I am quite certain of that. We as a group might be able to add a little bit of distance to the weekly ride. I don't think I would get more exercise by doing that and I would feel like I was cheating myself by adding a motor to the mix.

If someone else wants to ride an eBike where they are legally allowed and ride it in a manner that is safe and courteous to other trail users, I have no problem with that and would not accuse them of being lazy.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> Let me re-phrase then.
> 
> Riding a bike without a motor is harder and uses more energy than riding a bike with a motor to assist the rider as long as conditions match; length of ride, elevation, etc.
> 
> ...


You're speaking in absolutes that do not exist. In your case you are constrained by two variables. One that would be tough to change and one that is preference. You are time constrained. Inside of that constraint there is nothing stopping you from getting the same or a better workout on an e-bike, even with the motor on. The second variable is the desire to stay with your group. That's a personal preference. Not everyone will be constrained by that so the assertion of a pedal bike being harder and using more energy is patently false.

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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Type 1 diabetic. At 36 herniated L4-L5, got so bad I could not walk 50 yards without stopping. I was taking 6-10 Norco/day. One day I had to go get my mail and I jumped on my old bike so I could make it in one shot. I didn't have any pain so I rode to town and back. Within one week I was off the norcs and riding as much as possible. Got fully back in to mtbing and snowboarding. I was feeling so good I started riding dirt bikes again. Right after my 40th bday I rode one right in to a tree. Herniated my C4-C6 and was paralyzed for about 1 hour. Long enough to plan who was going to help me kill myself because I was not going to be a quad. Spent 2 mos in the hospital, had to learn to feed myself and walk all over again. My hands are still numb all the time and its been almost ten years. All my muscle memory was erased. I had to learn to ride a bike again. I still can't snowboard because it is heart breaking for me to have no clue how to ride.
> 
> Did it all on a regular mountain bike. I am very happy for the people you know that got help through ebikes but it is very disingenuous to say that it is the only way they could get help. That is all that I am saying, non one needs an ebike to get healthy


How much proprioception do you still have. A bike balances itself dynamically if you let it but a snowboard does not and generally requires better than average proprioception for dynamic balance.

Your attitude is interesting. The 80 year old type 1 since youth that I ride with generally clings to his regular bike very stubbornly even when he should not. I have put him on my bike and rode his a few times when the temps were hot and he was in obvious distress. He has some difficulty recognizing low sugar. Seems to do okay recognizing high sugar. He has slowed down a lot in the last two years.

"No one needs an e bike to get healthy" Dah!, that is so profoundly oblivious as to not even be needed in print. The e bike is a tool and like every other tool has is best uses and limitations.

On my ride today I ran into 7 other e bikers. All of them were elderly, most of them had some sort of health issues, none of them were in great shape and all of them paid less than $2,000 for their bikes. There were three separate groups of two, two and three. The group of three had just purchased their bikes and had one other ride the day before.

Not one of them purchased their bikes with the idea of fitness and exercise. Two flat out stated that had someone told them it would give them exercise they would have turned and ran the other way. Five of them were hoping for better joint mobility through going through the pedaling motions. All were very surprised to find a fitness benefit. Not one of them would ride a regular bike, been there, done that its boring.

All of them mentioned that they bought the bikes to be able to do something together that was outdoors and away from distractions. That was their main purchasing reason.

There biggest concerns were a lack of people in the area that could repair their bikes. All of them had saddles I would refer to as lazy boy couches. The one piece of equipment that I have they most wanted is the LEV dropper post.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> Go look at the statement made by Peirre, he was inferring that if someone faces a major health challenge in life they WILL change how they approach exercise and take the easy way out. I was merely contradicting his statement with my own personal experience.
> 
> Some people will chose the easy way out after such an experience, but not ALL.


This is most certainly NOT what I meant. Here is what I wrote: "Once you have experienced a health issue you realize how short life is and how quickly you can be gone. Your perspective changes and you will choose funner more fulfilling ways to accomplish the same tasks."

Funner more fulfilling ways does not imply the easy way out unless you equate fun and fulfilling with easy. It does imply more bang for the buck and for some, that may be doubling down. For others it may mean getting an e bike to experience more with the same effort.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Jim_bo said:


> No pro eBiker that I have seen has ever said that an eBike is not motorized. Many have made the observation that several states/local governments have decided that they will be treated the same as bicycles for legal/access purposes. Also, I have made the observation that class 1 eBikes do not fit the legal definition of a motorized vehicle. And I am right. But that does not mean that I believe an eBike doesn't have a motor.
> 
> It really means nothing when you just make stuff up and then criticize others based on your fantasies. You should try harder to get your facts straight.


 It has a motor but it's not a motorized vehicle? Hmmm. Ok. Legal definition is only what the land manager/ land agency decides what it is.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

PierreR said:


> How much proprioception do you still have. A bike balances itself dynamically if you let it but a snowboard does not and generally requires better than average proprioception for dynamic balance.
> 
> Your attitude is interesting. The 80 year old type 1 since youth that I ride with generally clings to his regular bike very stubbornly even when he should not. I have put him on my bike and rode his a few times when the temps were hot and he was in obvious distress. He has some difficulty recognizing low sugar. Seems to do okay recognizing high sugar. He has slowed down a lot in the last two years.
> 
> ...


Again, you're talking about ebikes on pavement and not on trails, right? Being that this is a "trail" site, most of us are referring to emtbs when we say ebikes as that is what we're concerned about.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> Again, you're talking about ebikes on pavement and not on trails, right? Being that this is a "trail" site, most of us are referring to emtbs when we say ebikes as that is what we're concerned about.


Ah...but this isn't a really thread about access concerns (for once), it's about fitness benefits (or lack thereof) of ebikes...just because some he may be using examples that aren't necessarily on MTB trails doesn't mean the same thing wouldn't/doesn't apply to people that use them on dirt.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

Klurejr said:


> Let me re-phrase then.
> 
> Riding a bike without a motor is harder and uses more energy than riding a bike with a motor to assist the rider as long as conditions match; length of ride, elevation, etc.
> 
> ...


Again with the cherry picking of data. You assume that a person on an eBike has to choose the same trail or same distance as they would on an mtb. The only thing that holds those variables constant is your bias against ebikes.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

leeboh said:


> It has a motor but it's not a motorized vehicle? Hmmm. Ok. Legal definition is only what the land manager/ land agency decides what it is.


No, you're wrong. The legal definition comes from federal law, so it is what Congress decides it is.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Idc what anyone does for enjoyment and/or exercise. I can tell you the other day I ripped my emtb and it was one of the funnest days spent on two wheels. I was cooked afterwards. Beer tasted awesome!


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ah...but this isn't a really thread about access concerns (for once), it's about fitness benefits (or lack thereof) of ebikes...just because some he may be using examples that aren't necessarily on MTB trails doesn't mean the same thing wouldn't/doesn't apply to people that use them on dirt.


Well, he is talking about very elderly people and previously about very obese people. So while you are correct that this thread is about fitness benefits, I think most of us around here think in terms of bikes on trails and Pierre was not and seemed to be taking people's attitudes as snubbing the elderly riding ebikes on pavement. People are free to do what they want to do (as long as it's legal) but I still can't get onboard with something that encourages less exercise to a person capable of riding unassisted (check Battery's thread, he started on a bicycle at 285 lbs). For me, it's either ride a bicycle or ride a motorcycle; I don't really get the "ride an easy bicycle/weak motorcycle" thing. Some, like Tucker, may claim ebikes do not encourage less exercise but I think for a lot people, they will.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

chazpat said:


> Some, like Tucker, may claim ebikes do not encourage less exercise but I think for a lot people, they will.


Not what I said...

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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Not what I said...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Hence the "may".


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

chazpat said:


> Hence the "backpedal".


FIFY

You went back and read those posts a bit more carefully this time didn't you?

I haven't claimed that nor will I claim that.

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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

tuckerjt07 said:


> FIFY
> 
> You went back and read those posts a bit more carefully this time didn't you?
> 
> ...


wtf? No I didn't backpedal, I just pointed out to you what I had written. Maybe you need to read more carefully.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

I thought about posting on this topic, but after reading the bickering and the same ole weak arguments over n over I’ll just sit back and watch the **** show from a distance.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

chazpat said:


> wtf? No I didn't backpedal, I just pointed out to you what I had written. Maybe you need to read more carefully.


Uh huh

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> I still can't get onboard with something that encourages less exercise to a person capable of riding unassisted .


So...aren't you also 'capable' of more exercise than you get currently?

I don't think I can get behind encouraging people to mountain bike because they could be training for American Ninja Warrior 14 hours a day instead. Mountain biking is the easy way out. You must be lazy.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Not everyone will be constrained by that so the assertion of a pedal bike being harder and using more energy is patently false.


Are you stating then that everyone riding an eBike will get more exercise than someone riding a pedal bike then? Your arguments are very confusing.

I simply gave a real world example of my riding time and distance, something that is very similar to many other riders out there.

Yes I COULD choose to not ride with my buddies and put down a few more miles in my 2 hour window, but I am not going to choose that because spending time with my friends AND getting a good workout are more important to me than just getting a few extra miles, those extra miles do not automatically equate a better workout. I would need to wear a heart rate monitor at the very least and track some data from what my typical 2-hour ride is and then compare it to riding a bike with motor assist during those 2 hours and getting some additional mileage in.

I do not think it is a stretch to say the difference would be too small to make a difference. But it would be interesting to see a true study done to show the results.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Somewhat related - I rode my eMTB to work today, 3 miles on a road and 5 miles on a paved bike path. I put my work shirt in my Camelbak and wore a T-shirt, and changed shirts when I arrived. Used Sport and Turbo so I wouldn't have to break too much of a sweat although I did sweat a little. I arrived at work feeling much better than if I had driven. There is no way to ride a bicycle and not use many more muscles than you would expect, and also certain parts of your brain that otherwise are underutilized. 

Riding an eMTB on an actual MTB trail you would use even more muscles and more of your brain. Anyone who thinks riding an eBike involves sitting statically and using no muscles is A) Clueless and B) Has obviously never ridden an eBike.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> So...aren't you also 'capable' of more exercise than you get currently?
> 
> I don't think I can get behind encouraging people to mountain bike because they could be training for American Ninja Warrior 14 hours a day instead. Mountain biking is the easy way out. You must be lazy.


Considering I often burn more calories than I intake and lose weight I don't need to lose, no, not really. And considering the increasing obesity rates in the US, I'll stick to what I said.

https://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> Let me re-phrase then.
> 
> Riding a bike without a motor is harder and uses more energy than riding a bike with a motor to assist the rider as long as conditions match; length of ride, elevation, etc.


That's not really true, in either case it depends on how hard you ride. If 2 rides are the same length someone on an ebike could average higher watts (from their legs) than someone on a bicycle just cruising and do the ride in half the time.

Or someone on an hour bicycle ride might go 10 miles and average 150 watts whereas someone else might go for a 1 hour ebike ride and go 20 miles while averaging 175 watts (legs). Motor or not how much energy you expend depends on how hard you pedal.

That said I'd guess very few people on ebikes actually push as many watts as their non-motorized counterparts.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

honkinunit said:


> There is no way to ride a bicycle and not use many more muscles than you would expect, and also certain parts of your brain that otherwise are underutilized.
> 
> Riding an eMTB on an actual MTB trail you would use even more muscles and more of your brain.


^what does that mean? Do you use more brain on an electric bike? or a bicycle?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> Are you stating then that everyone riding an eBike will get more exercise than someone riding a pedal bike then? Your arguments are very confusing.
> 
> I simply gave a real world example of my riding time and distance, something that is very similar to many other riders out there.
> 
> ...


My arguments are "confusing" because they are based in a premise that you refuse to even acknowledge, much less accept. You acknowledge that in your world not getting the same workout is purely based on personal preference, riding with your buddies. That is not true for every one, some ride alone, especially for training purposes. Heck, would could even make a semi intelligent argument that giving the slowest people in the group e-bikes could create a better workout for everyone.

The study you are looking for is out there. It was posted on this site some time ago. A bike mag sent a guy out on a time constrained ride using a pedal bike and then an e-bike with the goal being max miles. Of course the e-bike went further but they were shocked that rider output and average heart rate were actually higher on the e-bike. I saw at least one other mag repeat this but it's been so long I forget the who. Yes, you will find pro e-bike rags touting the opposite. The difference is those are typically not full out time trial efforts.

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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

Klurejr said:


> Are you stating then that everyone riding an eBike will get more exercise than someone riding a pedal bike then? Your arguments are very confusing.
> 
> I simply gave a real world example of my riding time and distance, something that is very similar to many other riders out there.


Wow. You just won't stop. You cherry picked your data points, unreasonably constrained the equation,, and came to a biased conclusion that fits your agenda. By your methodology, I could literally prove any point I wanted to be true.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> Considering I often burn more calories than I intake and lose weight I don't need to lose, no, not really. And considering the increasing obesity rates in the US, I'll stick to what I said.
> 
> https://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/


So you believe that your personal level and method of exercise is the benchmark every other person should strive to match? And futher that it's impossible to output more calories than one takes using an e-bike?

Don't buy any of it. I know plenty of overweight people that ride regular bikes. 
Don't believe that it's impossible for you to exercise more either.

I'm still totally confused why some of you care so much about how and how much exercise complete strangers may or may not be getting compared to yourselves. 
Weird, weird stuff.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> That said I'd guess very few people on ebikes actually push as many watts as their non-motorized counterparts.


I don't push as many watts as many other mountain bikers I'm sure.

So what?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> I don't push as many watts as many other mountain bikers I'm sure.
> 
> So what?


So nothing, just saying.


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## tretopflir (May 31, 2018)

I am amazed at the anti ebike talk in here. Class one emtb will not harm trails if respectfully ridden. Just like regular bikes. There are always gonna be a small percentage of assholes on all types of bikes. The guys that are saying that you won’t improve health by peddling a ebike for one or more hrs is full of crap. One hr of heart beats that are in a range for fitness will help. Oh now they talk about efficiency, you can get off you reg bike and run up hills too. Running is more efficient than biking. Run with weight packs. My point is respect the trails, share the trails, turn in assholes who don’t. Ebike are here to stay. There is money to increase knowledge and access to more trails. 


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> ^what does that mean? Do you use more brain on an electric bike? or a bicycle?


He means he believe you would use your brain more on the trail than on a paved path.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

In the end, getting fit is a result of putting repeated demand on the body for fitness. Your body becomes more efficient at whatever you have it repeat, simple as that.

One of the laziest things people do is drive a car. One of the laziest things mtbers do is drive their bike to the trailhead, and/or take a shuttle/chairlift up to the top. If you could replace this with something that was powered by your own body, even partly (assisted by a motor), that is a benefit to your fitness. People have plenty of excuses not to do this though. Ebikes are poised to address quite a lot of those excuses. I find that's reason enough for their existence. There's plenty more reasons, but since they don't apply to me I won't try to speak for others, like the disabled or those that aren't fit enough to keep up with riding partners. There will be people still driving their ebikes to the trailhead and taking shuttle/chairlift up, but for those that choose to use it for more fitness, I applaud them.

I've tried to understand the anti-ebike side of the argument, who try to criminalize them by calling for bans, but I find myself criticizing the person's character more than their argument, so I don't even try anymore. I've used words like crazy, stupid, narrow minded, but is that not like just saying they're human? Really, who isn't a little crazy, stupid, and narrow minded? I'd like to meet them. Just my nature to not judge the tool, but rather judge the user of the tool. If people are assholes about ebikes, assholes while riding regular bikes, I question if they're not also assholes about other stuff. Maybe they know they'd be also assholes on ebikes, but be more enabled, and are worried that there are more people out there that are like them. I know they're out there, but gotta take the good with the bad; can't deny things just because there's arguments against it. There's arguments virtually everything, probably even the most good you can think of.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

tretopflir said:


> There is money to increase knowledge and access to more trails.


Send it to me, I'll build trails with it.

This thread has reached new levels of silliness, even for the ebike forum.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Riding an eMTB on an actual MTB trail you would use even more muscles and more of your brain. Anyone who thinks riding an eBike involves sitting statically and using no muscles is A) Clueless and B) Has obviously never ridden an eBike.


Agreed, that would be very faulty reasoning and I do not believe anyone has posted on this site that they believe riding a pedelec eBike uses no muscles, most (including me) are simple stating when you have a motor to assist on the climbs you use less energy to get to the top of the hill in the same amount of time or faster.



J.B. Weld said:


> That's not really true, in either case it depends on how hard you ride. If 2 rides are the same length someone on an ebike could average higher watts (from their legs) than someone on a bicycle just cruising and do the ride in half the time.


Please clarify this for me. If I go ride for a specific amount of time(in my personal example i gave 2 hours) on a pedal bike, and then go ride a Pedelec for 2 hours, and I have to work half as hard for the climbs as I do on my pedal only bike.... how am I burning more calories?

Lets look at it this way, if I go walk for a hour I will hit a lower max heart rate during that hour than if I run for an hour. Giving someone a motor does not make the rider work harder, it allows them to put in less effort.



tuckerjt07 said:


> The study you are looking for is out there. It was posted on this site some time ago. A bike mag sent a guy out on a time constrained ride using a pedal bike and then an e-bike with the goal being max miles. Of course the e-bike went further but they were shocked that rider output and average heart rate were actually higher on the e-bike. I saw at least one other mag repeat this but it's been so long I forget the who. Yes, you will find pro e-bike rags touting the opposite. The difference is those are typically not full out time trial efforts.


Please link the study.



Jim_bo said:


> Wow. You just won't stop. You cherry picked your data points, unreasonably constrained the equation,, and came to a biased conclusion that fits your agenda. By your methodology, I could literally prove any point I wanted to be true.


You certainly have been trying to do that since you joined the site. I did not cherry pick anything. I related a personal example, nothing more. I never claimed my personal example was fact for anyone else, but I do think it is pretty average.

All this is making me want to demo an eBike so bad and start doing some science... lol.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> Please clarify this for me. If I go ride for a specific amount of time(in my personal example i gave 2 hours) on a pedal bike, and then go ride a Pedelec for 2 hours, and I have to work half as hard for the climbs as I do on my pedal only bike.... how am I burning more calories?


Because it's a personal choice of how hard you work. Because it's pretty well known that e-bikes cause a flatter heart rate curve, less peaks and valleys, so the average is not going to be too far off. 80% exertion is still 80% exertion.



Klurejr said:


> Please link the study.


You can find it just as easily as I can.

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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Because it's a personal choice of how hard you work. Because it's pretty well known that e-bikes cause a flatter heart rate curve, less peaks and valleys, so the average is not going to be too far off. 80% exertion is still 80% exertion.


So, you are saying eBike riders will always choose to ride harder and get a better workout than guys riding a pedal bike.

And I am saying that is not true.

So I guess we can agree to disagree.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> So, you are saying eBike riders will always choose to ride harder and get a better workout than guys riding a pedal bike.
> 
> And I am saying that is not true.
> 
> So I guess we can agree to disagree.


Please quote where I said that.

I can quote where you made the spurious, absolute correlation between an e-bike and it being the easy way out.

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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> So you believe that your personal level and method of exercise is the benchmark every other person should strive to match? And futher that it's impossible to output more calories than one takes using an e-bike?
> 
> Don't buy any of it. I know plenty of overweight people that ride regular bikes.
> Don't believe that it's impossible for you to exercise more either.
> ...


And where did I say that? What I did say, or at least tried to say, is that I think trends that move the citizens of the US towards less exercise is a bad thing, especially considering the growing obesity problem. And I think that in general, ebikes could contribute to this trend if they explode and take over like some posters here have claimed will happen. Is it wrong to care about other people's health in general? Sorry.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

chazpat said:


> And where did I say that? What I did say, or at least tried to say, is that I think trends that move the citizens of the US towards less exercise is a bad thing, especially considering the growing obesity problem. And I think that in general, ebikes could contribute to this trend if they explode and take over like some posters here have claimed will happen. Is it wrong to care about other people's health in general? Sorry.


You seem to subscribe to a common fallacy here - riding an ebike doesn't necessarily mean someone is getting "less exercise". Maybe they do two five mile laps instead of one, or maybe they are in the same HR zone they would be in on a regular MTB. I know I have been surprised by how hard I go on my eMTB vs. my MTB, and my perceived effort is very similar, I just don't get off the bike and push as much up some of the super steep/rocky stuff I encounter. One of the things that gets me to choose the eMTB over the MTB is that I have a couple of loops that are 1:20-1:30 on the MTB and right around an hour on the eBike. If I only have time for a one hour ride, I'd much rather do a loop on the eMTB than an out and back on the MTB on these trails. The amount of time it takes on the eMTB is much more consistent as well. On the MTB, if I feel like crap the loop will be 1:30 and if I feel great it will be 1:20. On the eMTB, even in full on turbo mode I can only go 8-10 MPH on some of these long climbs. The speed will be 8-10 whether I am at 50% or 80% of effort. On the MTB the same climb will be 4-5 MPH at 80% effort, and I am walking at 50% effort. Huge advantage to be able maintain 50%-80% with the eMTB on the climb and not have to walk when I come to the 30 meter long babyhead strewn wall at 20% grade.

One of the under-recognized aspects of riding a capable eMTB on steep gnarly trails is how much fun it is to ride up a nasty climb - "uphill flow" is a thing.

This is a really well done video:


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> Please clarify this for me. If I go ride for a specific amount of time(in my personal example i gave 2 hours) on a pedal bike, and then go ride a Pedelec for 2 hours, and I have to work half as hard for the climbs as I do on my pedal only bike.... how am I burning more calories?


But you don't necessarily have to work half as hard on the climbs on the ebike, you could work harder and go further, faster. On a 2 hour ebike hammerfest you might cover 3 or 4 times the distance that you would on a leisurely 2 hour bicycle ride. And burn more calories.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> But you don't necessarily have to work half as hard on the climbs on the ebike, you could work harder and go further, faster. On a 2 hour ebike hammerfest you might cover 3 or 4 times the distance that you would on a leisurely 2 hour bicycle ride. And burn more calories.


That's what I've been trying to explain. His limitation is he wants to stay with his group. The disconnect is explaining not everyone has that issue.

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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> This is a really well done video:


Don't show that video to the typical Hateful old Hiker in this country.....

Keeping on the topic of fitness in this thread I noticed 2 interesting points they made:
















So even the Pro-eBike videos explain how a motor does more of the work for the rider and thus the rider does not have to exert as much energy as they would on a pedal only bike.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> But you don't necessarily have to work half as hard on the climbs on the ebike, you could work harder and go further, faster. On a 2 hour ebike hammerfest you might cover 3 or 4 times the distance that you would on a leisurely 2 hour bicycle ride. And burn more calories.





tuckerjt07 said:


> That's what I've been trying to explain. His limitation is he wants to stay with his group. The disconnect is explaining not everyone has that issue.


I fully understand that not everyone has that issue, As mentioned before i was giving a personal example and I know many have the same desires to ride with friends. But there is no reason someone NEEDS an eBike to get in shape and no substance to the idea that an eBike is a better way to get or keep in shape than a pedal only bike when it comes to MTB riding.

All an ebike does is make the climbs easier and faster.

On a different note I think eBikes for commuters are for sure a better way to get people in shape over a pedal bike and here is my reasoning, once again I will use my own personal example.

For many people commuting by bicycle is a hard proposition due to the amount of time it takes and that one might arrive at work sweaty.

With an eBike the commute time can be greatly reduced and with less effort needed to travel the same distance at a faster rate of speed you can get to work without being as sweaty.

On top of that, you are getting some exercise in comparison to sitting in a car.

I work 36 miles from home. There are a number of hills between my home and my work, not to mention many stop lights. San Diego is in the process of building a commuter bike path to run down the coast that would avoid all the stop lights for a solid 20 miles. That means on a commuter eBike I could go 30mph with a class 3 pedlec and get to work in about an hour. On my pedal bike I could probably do it in 2 hours. Once that commuter path is built I am seriously considering getting a eBike commuter just for that purpose. Right now I do not find it feasible to ride my pedal bike to work and back, I just don't have the time for it, and I don't want to have to shower when I get to work. But with an eBike for commuting that changes and I would get in better shape just be riding to and from work each day.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Klurejr said:


> But there is no reason someone NEEDS an eBike to get in shape and no substance to the idea that an eBike is a better way to get or keep in shape than a pedal only bike when it comes to MTB riding.


If we are talking about actual needs a mountain bike isn't a need. It's a luxury item. No substance, that's laughable. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence where e-bikes have helped people get out and be active that would not have been, even in this thread. Heck, I rode an enduro with a disabled vet that had maybe a quarter lung capacity. The only way he did that was his e-bike, no substance theory busted and that is just one instance.

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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

J.B. Weld said:


> But you don't necessarily have to work half as hard on the climbs on the ebike, you could work harder and go further, faster. On a 2 hour ebike hammerfest you might cover 3 or 4 times the distance that you would on a leisurely 2 hour bicycle ride. And burn more calories.


This math doesn't necessarily parse out. If anyone spend 2hrs at the same intensity then they will burn the same calories (If they were twins and had the same BMI, etc). If you go out on your ebike and ride for 2 hours at 80% you will burn as much as I will on a bike at 80% relatively. Comparing a leisurely ride vs a hard ride is not a comparison, it just shows that someone that isn't working as hard as someone else is getting less of a work out.

The problem I see is that to get the same workout you may travel twice as far which means you are traveling twice as fast as I am, for example. If I average 80% intensity over 2hrs, to muster the same a comparable e-bike rider would need to ride whatever percentage faster then I need to ride to maintain the 80% intensity. If the bike is removing 20% of your effort then presumably you need to travel at 20% faster speeds to get the same workout in the same time frame.

So if a new rider gets on a bike and rides for 2hrs at what feels like a hard pace, then gets on an e-bike and rides at what seems like the same pace, they will travel farther because they are traveling faster. You can't have one without the other. This is the crux of the argument that e-bikes aren't faster but you get the same workout. Either they are faster or you don't get the same work out, can't be both. Unless the battery dies halfway and you have to ride back under leg power only, then I bet it more than makes up for it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

rockcrusher said:


> This math doesn't necessarily parse out. If anyone spend 2hrs at the same intensity then they will burn the same calories (If they were twins and had the same BMI, etc).


Yes but that's not what I meant, I'm talking different intensities. 2 riders go on a 2 hour ride, one pedals his ass off and the other goes at just above walking pace, who gets a better workout? It could be the one on the ebike or the one on the bicycle.

All I was saying is that someone on an ebike could* potentially* get a better workout than someone else on a bicycle.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yes but that's not what I meant, I'm talking different intensities. 2 riders go on a 2 hour ride, one pedals his ass off and the other goes at just above walking pace, who gets a better workout? It could be the one on the ebike or the one on the bicycle.
> 
> All I was saying is that someone on an ebike could* potentially* get a better workout than someone else on a bicycle.


This is kind of counter-intuitive, but I think I see what you mean when looking from an ebike rider's perspective. Someone on a normal bike tends to pace themselves, since they need reserves, for safety's sake and as preparation for an impromptu route. Someone on an ebike might go all out, since they have tunable levels of assist to allow them to cope with the "show-up-to-blow-up" symptoms of going hard from the start and "dying" until they get their second wind.

If they go all out and feel terrible the next day, the ebike will be more inviting to ride anyways as active recovery, perhaps with buddies, rather than just taking a day off without doing anything.

Climbing up something at high intensity for 4 minutes rather than 2 minutes, due to having the motor turned off and just cranking up the 50 lbs nets you more climbing time, than someone on a weight weenie hardtail. *You gotta measure by time at intensity, rather than by miles/ft.* At the same time, you could make the climb take less than 1 minute at high intensity, with max motor assist, just for the thrill of climbing that fast. You'd likely have to be going all out to cut time that much--maybe a better workout if your all-out 1 minute was truly all-out and the rider on the weight weenie bike was only giving 85-90%, since they had budgeted 2 hours to ride and didn't want to be "dying".

Sounds kind of versatile to be offering a range of different riding experiences. Reminds me of the times I rode with a slower buddy, and among the bikes I could choose from I had to choose one that "gimped" me most. Could the ebike be best choice, choosing to ride without the assist?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> This is kind of counter-intuitive, but I think I see what you mean when looking from an ebike rider's perspective. Someone on a normal bike tends to pace themselves, since they need reserves, for safety's sake and as preparation for an impromptu route. Someone on an ebike might go all out, since they have tunable levels of assist to allow them to cope with the "show-up-to-blow-up" symptoms of going hard from the start and "dying" until they get their second wind.
> 
> If they go all out and feel terrible the next day, the ebike will be more inviting to ride anyways as active recovery, perhaps with buddies, rather than just taking a day off without doing anything.


Clearly I'm a poor communicator because that's not what I mean at all.

I don't think ebikes give better workouts.
I don't think mtb's give better workouts.
I don't think road bikes give better workouts.
I don't think dragging an anchor gives better workouts.

The amount of work is determined by how much pressure the rider applies to the pedal.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> You seem to subscribe to a common fallacy here - riding an ebike doesn't necessarily mean someone is getting "less exercise". Maybe they do two five mile laps instead of one, or maybe they are in the same HR zone they would be in on a regular MTB. I know I have been surprised by how hard I go on my eMTB vs. my MTB, and my perceived effort is very similar, I just don't get off the bike and push as much up some of the super steep/rocky stuff I encounter. One of the things that gets me to choose the eMTB over the MTB is that I have a couple of loops that are 1:20-1:30 on the MTB and right around an hour on the eBike. If I only have time for a one hour ride, I'd much rather do a loop on the eMTB than an out and back on the MTB on these trails. The amount of time it takes on the eMTB is much more consistent as well. On the MTB, if I feel like crap the loop will be 1:30 and if I feel great it will be 1:20. On the eMTB, even in full on turbo mode I can only go 8-10 MPH on some of these long climbs. The speed will be 8-10 whether I am at 50% or 80% of effort. On the MTB the same climb will be 4-5 MPH at 80% effort, and I am walking at 50% effort. Huge advantage to be able maintain 50%-80% with the eMTB on the climb and not have to walk when I come to the 30 meter long babyhead strewn wall at 20% grade.
> 
> One of the under-recognized aspects of riding a capable eMTB on steep gnarly trails is how much fun it is to ride up a nasty climb - "uphill flow" is a thing.
> 
> This is a really well done video:


Granted, a study of one but&#8230;



Moe Ped said:


> Speaking of e-bikes; they're great for hauling trail work tools but they're detrimental to maintaining cardio conditioning IMHO. I gained 10 # when I started riding e-bikes about 50% of the time.


And yes, I do realize that would not be the case for everyone


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

I find the EBike threads and Global Warming threads to be identical. 

Overall, I am 100% behind/open to ebikes, so long as they don't limit access for pedal bikes. Basic principles of minimizing harm to others. 

But like anything so polarizing, the clains get embellished or exaggerated. 

EBike can be a life changing option for a small segment of population, and the thread about the wife riding was inspiring, at least to me. Overall, it looks like a fun option, just don't spoil someone else's party. 

On a side not, anything battery powered is going to get special treatment by policy makers, and that will eventually filter down to ebikes. In this sense, the eventuality aspect is closer to reality. It may have more impact v. NOMT opposition. 

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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

I will add that I have piached a many a public trail, and have helped build unauthorized trails on public land, and they are still ridden today. I am no trail angel by any means, but never risked access for authorized trails. 

Now I am pretty much a choir boy. 

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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

J.B. Weld said:


> Clearly I'm a poor communicator because that's not what I mean at all.
> 
> I don't think ebikes give better workouts.
> I don't think mtb's give better workouts.
> ...


Huh, so it's not the intensity over time that matters, but pressure applied to the pedal? So fat/obese people and track cyclists get better workouts than cyclists who weigh less and have smaller leg muscles?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> This is the crux of the argument that e-bikes aren't faster but you get the same workout. Either they are faster or you don't get the same work out, can't be both.


:thumbsup:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Of course the entire point of the thread wasn't 'e-bikes give you more exercise than mountain bikes' in the firt place, now was it?

It was simply that some people are using e-bikes to get fitter than they are.

Lots of people missing the point completely it seems to me.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> If you missed the point in the first place you won't understand it a second time around.


No use explaining something to a person that thinks a singlespeed can climb a steep mountain.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

richj8990 said:


> No use explaining something to a person that thinks a singlespeed can climb a steep mountain.


Just because you can't does not in any way mean that he couldn't. Have a warm cup of stfu and go away.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

I was at Glentress today and saw two things I found interesting. 

I only noticed one eBike today. A young, fit-looking guy sped up the switch-back climb behind me. At first I thought he was just extremely fit but then I picked up the sound of the motor. After he passed me he rounded the corner and pulled a wheelie, flying up-hill on a gravel trail. 

Later in the day I helped another young guy put some more air in his front tyre. He was in his early twenties I would say. His left forearm was missing and his useless-looking left hand was at a right-angle to his elbow. He clearly had general issues with the left side of his body and face but he had an elaborate cradle attachment on his left bar which he strapped his left hand into. I asked him what happened when he crashed and he showed me the cable which ran from the cradle to a strap round his right wrist which was supposed to detached the cradle in a crash. He said it didn't work but it's wasn't too bad as long as he avoided jumps because his odd posture unbalanced the bike. 

He was not on an eBike, he was kicking the trails on a regular enduo bike and I came away with tremendous respect for his tenacity. Meanwhile, there are perfectly healthy people who feel that their life is just not fun enough without electrical assistance and who are wondering why the rest of us are lukewarm about their pathetic apologetics.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Nobody is apologizing to you. Why in the world would you think that they give a damn what you think? Full of yourself much?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> No use explaining something to a person that thinks a singlespeed can't climb a steep mountain.


fify

Clueless as usual.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

tuckerjt07 said:


> The study you are looking for is out there. It was posted on this site some time ago. A bike mag sent a guy out on a time constrained ride using a pedal bike and then an e-bike with the goal being max miles. Of course the e-bike went further but they were shocked that rider output and average heart rate were actually higher on the e-bike. I saw at least one other mag repeat this but it's been so long I forget the who. Yes, you will find pro e-bike rags touting the opposite. The difference is those are typically not full out time trial efforts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


When I first read this I thought it was totally nuts but after thinking about it, I realized that whenever I go to higher assist to cover more miles, I have to slow down because I am winded. Why? cuz I pedal hard when I go faster. I consciously know the e bike will provide the watts and I can pedal like I was at a normal easy pace but my subconscious thinks that to go that fast I need to be pushing hard on the pedals. Now I know I don't have to push hard on the pedals but I do it every time and swear the next time I won't because, I am on a e bike.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Mr Pig said:


> I was at Glentress today and saw two things I found interesting.
> 
> I only noticed one eBike today. A young, fit-looking guy sped up the switch-back climb behind me. At first I thought he was just extremely fit but then I picked up the sound of the motor. After he passed me he rounded the corner and pulled a wheelie, flying up-hill on a gravel trail.
> 
> ...


Why so judgmental?

Fundamentally, a mtn bike is a tool. If the tool has no professional use to you nor your livelihood or survival, it's like a toy. Are you the type to judge others based on what toys they play with or how they play? Guys shouldn't play with dolls or any other things that make them less manly?

Tools are made to ergonomically match the user, in order to efficiently use their muscle groups for control. Technology trickles down to make them power assisted to speed up the completion of a task. How many powered things do you have that you take for granted?

Your fridge - you can be more fit if you fetched ice, on a regular basis, for a box to keep its contents cool.
Your car - you can be more fit if you ran for transportation purposes.
You can be more fit if your posts were hand written, hand carried by yourself, delivered to all you wanted to read it, rather than sent electronically.

How about you making your house and clothes by hand? Make your food all by hand, growing your veggies and what not? Secure a clean water supply by hand, perhaps filtering a more local source? I suppose necessities can be an exception, as everyone needs security from hunger and thirst, else you get conflict like riots...

Heck, in an extreme example, you can get fitter lungs if you filled your tires with your lungs/mouth directly.

How many are going to respect you, being perfectly healthy, doing such tasks when there's easier options? If you were missing an arm and I created a tool specifically to assist you in pumping up your tires manually, by taking a tube with a bulb on one end, that just required squeezing... if you pumped it with your teeth, or your armpit, rather than something more ergonomically fitting, is your act of using such a tool in that manner respectable? Maybe because you didn't throw that shitty tool away and made use of a foot pump or power-assisted one?

You sound like you could be into "primitive living" if you this stuff agreeable. Do you find the people who actually document this kind of lifestyle on youtube respectable? If you accept all your non-essential powered conveniences, you are being hypocritical, when you judge ebikes (class 1 pedelecs in the scope of this thread).

Your standards for respect are questionable. I'd respect the "missing forearm" guy for creating a solution to a problem, such as his unique one. Using him as contrast to a young fit-looking guy using a pedelec to get up a hill, sharpening your senses enough to listen for the hum of a motor, as part of your reasoning to be judgmental is something that made me lose respect for you. Why do they even need to apologize? That they didn't seek validation/acceptance from you? Who do you think you are, to pass judgement and see posts here as being a pathetic apologies? Someone holding a special position of privilege that you somehow earned? Do you like to prematurely judge people and then blame others things when your judgement is off, such as how you judged the guy coming up behind you to be "extremely fit" until you saw evidence of motor-assist? Is that all it takes to upset you and create a disturbing experience worthy of memory?

What's keeping you from respecting things around you a bit more? Do you not respect yourself?


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

cjsb said:


> I find the EBike threads and Global Warming threads to be identical.
> 
> Overall, I am 100% behind/open to ebikes, so long as they don't limit access for pedal bikes. Basic principles of minimizing harm to others.
> 
> But like anything so polarizing, the clains get embellished or exaggerated.


I think that you will find that any thread about fitness and how to gain fitness will be similarly contentious even without the e bikes thrown in. E bikes are just a fun ars tool.

When it comes to fitness, climate change and mtbs, the first liar doesn't stand a chance.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

ninjichor said:


> This is kind of counter-intuitive, but I think I see what you mean when looking from an ebike rider's perspective. Someone on a normal bike tends to pace themselves, since they need reserves, for safety's sake and as preparation for an impromptu route. Someone on an ebike might go all out, since they have tunable levels of assist to allow them to cope with the "show-up-to-blow-up" symptoms of going hard from the start and "dying" until they get their second wind.
> 
> If they go all out and feel terrible the next day, the ebike will be more inviting to ride anyways as active recovery, perhaps with buddies, rather than just taking a day off without doing anything.
> 
> ...


Wow, I haven't looked at a e bike that way cuz for me its been the opposite when biking off road. This way of viewing an e bike is interesting. I went to an e fat bike to have enough power to ride off road snow trails and loose sand. For me the transition was opposite of what you write and what I expected.

One problem I had with a regular mtb is one of self regulation. The need for momentum on the mtb gets me so wound up and so into it that my heartrate nears Vo Max a good share of the ride. I would get slammed and would not even see it coming. Twice landed me in ER, once with kidney failure.

With the e bike I don't self hype and end up riding slower. I don't feel the need for momentum and don't get so wrapped up in strategy. I am a superb alpine skier and don't have a healthy fear of downhill sections with trees. Once self hyped, the vertical earned, I was damned well not going to waste vertical on brake friction. My mind would shift into alpine skiing and I would really put the bike over and in the process, forgetting that you cannot clear a tree by simply moving your hand inward that is on the inside of the turn. As a result of not getting so hyped, I don't get ripped violently off the bike anymore when the grips nick the tree.

In short the e bike has the effect of making me ride much more sensible. I don't feel the need to get a run at climbs or maintain as much momentum so I find myself creeping up at slow steady. I find that a lot of fun. That also extends to MUT. I will slow way down for pedestrians and obey all traffic laws. Why? getting back up to speed is way fun, E bikes have amazing acceleration and a slowdown is an excuse to feel that acceleration. I will set the power to a high assist level long enough to get back up to my speed. Normally around 15 mph. 
Getting better fitness through riding considerably longer was a surprise benefit I did not foresee.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Mr Pig said:


> Meanwhile, there are perfectly healthy people who feel that their life is just not fun enough without electrical assistance and who are wondering why the rest of us are lukewarm about their pathetic apologetics.


Ehhhh, I could resemble that remark. Life is short and the more fun I have the better. At first I use to feel like I was cheating and sought pathetic reassurances but I ended up healthier with the e bike than without. (Your experience may vary). No one has to feel sorry for me, I now don't feel one bit cheated.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

ninjichor said:


> Fundamentally, a mtn bike is a tool. If the tool has no professional use to you nor your livelihood or survival, it's like a toy. Are you the type to judge others based on what toys they play with or how they play?


Yes.

My respect for this young man stemmed from the fact that he was not taking the easy way out by choosing to either not ride a mountain bike at all or use an Ebike. He is putting considerable effort into rising to the challenge of mountain biking on the same terms as everyone else. Not without additional risk I might add. How comfortable would you be about riding rough trails with one hand strapped to the bars?!

Most eBike riders are the antithesis if this. They want the more pleasurable aspects of mountain biking but at less physical cost to them.

Do I make judgments on other people's choices? Absolutely. It tells me something about the sort of person they are. I believe it is right to respect other's humanity but not necessarily every choice or action they make. That's a stupid suggestion. If you want my respect you have to earn it. You can't just demand it.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

richj8990 said:


> No use explaining something to a person that thinks a singlespeed can climb a steep mountain.


Then apparently I have been riding bikes the wrong way for the last 8 years.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> . If you want my respect you have to earn it.


Once again, why should anyone care whether or not they have your respect?
What is so special about you that you think you are in a position where people should go around worrying whether Mr Pig approves of what they're doing?

Newsflash - no one is out there trying to impress you.


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## Ryder (Aug 20, 2004)

Mr Pig said:


> Yes.
> Do I make judgments on other people's choices? Absolutely. It tells me something about the sort of person they are.


And that tells me everything I need to know about the sort of person you are.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Once again, why should anyone care whether or not they have your respect?


I'm not the one who brought the topic up. I'm not the one who is twisting and turning all over the place trying to justify my choice of a powered bicycle.

It's very clear that eBikers_ do_ badly want the respect of the wider mountain bike community, and I have to say that at the moment, they are not doing a very good job of getting it.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> I'm not the one who brought the topic up. I'm not the one who is twisting and turning all over the place trying to justify my choice of a powered bicycle.


No one is doing that.
You've suffering from delusions of grandeur.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

*Ebikes are giving people fits. Goofy article.*


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> You've suffering from delusions of grandeur.


Whatever.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Once again, why should anyone care whether or not they have your respect?
> Newsflash - no one is out there trying to impress you.


You want to earn my respect you need to go ride with me, I don't care what and must be able to eat and drink afterwards! Anything less and you are way to serious for me to ride a bicycle with. It's only entertainment after all.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Oh, almost forgot. Thanks Lynx for the neg rep.


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## tretopflir (May 31, 2018)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Oh, almost forgot. Thanks Lynx for the neg rep.


Lame, as always.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

While this thread has become monumentally stupid... it does serve a good purpose. It clearly shows who is open minded and rational with respect to eBikes, and who is so biased that they are just grasping at straws trying to find anything they can to demonize eBikes.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Jim_bo said:


> While this thread has become monumentally stupid...


You should've stopped the sentance right there.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Jim_bo said:


> While this thread has become monumentally stupid... it does serve a good purpose. It clearly shows who is open minded and rational with respect to eBikes, and who is so biased that they are just grasping at straws trying to find anything they can to demonize eBikes.


You are correct.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> You should've stopped the sentance right there.


If the shoe fits...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

tuckerjt07 said:


> If the shoe fits...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


lol


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Every eBike thread ends up the same quagmire. And every one ends up with the eBike fanatics blaming everyone else. Really guys, it's getting old.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> Every eBike thread ends up the same quagmire. And every one ends up with the eBike fanatics blaming everyone else. Really guys, it's getting old.


Nobody is blaming anybody for anything, where in the world are you getting this stuff?

And I'm an 'e-bike fanatic' now?

You have completely lost touch with reality; should probably avoid e-bike discussions from here on in. They obviously bring out the worst in you.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Nobody is blaming anybody for anything, where in the world are you getting this stuff?





Jim_bo said:


> ..It clearly shows who is open minded and rational with respect to eBikes, and who is so biased that they are just grasping at straws trying to find anything they can to demonize eBikes.


eBike advocates = open-minded, rational.
eBike detractors = biased, demonizers.

Or in my case, 'loosing touch with reality'.

But thank you for stating clearly what you want, for anyone who does not support eBikes to stay out of the discussion. Also a recurring theme.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

*shrug* it's the extremists sharing exaggerated/delusional opinions to promote their belief leaning to one side over the other. The ones sitting in between are the decent ones, at least until they get influenced to a side. I'm hoping that I am retaining my neutral stance. I just see it as a tech improvement. I'm looking to further improve my "car-less", but not car-free, lifestyle. Got jury duty, and admittedly took a car last time. Gonna take my bike and see how it goes... thinking an ebike would make it more pleasant, as the challenges a bike presents in this scenario are not of the "fun" variety, like mtn biking is. *thinks of all the potential security tech on it too*


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> eBike advocates = open-minded, rational.
> eBike detractors = biased, demonizers.
> 
> Or in my case, 'loosing touch with reality'.
> ...


Discussion had nothing to do with supporting e-bikes at all, it was about the fact that certain people were seeing fitness benefits from them. Period. Don't know where it turned in to you thinking people are begging for your approval or respect, but that is a pretty f'ed up tangent you lost yourself on.

I'm no e-bike advocate, nor am I an e-bike detractor, they are just toys, same as MTBs. Unlike yourself, I don't go making ridiculous personal judgments of people simply because they play with different toys than I do, or think my choice of toy or physical condition somehow makes me superior to other people.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

It's neat how open minded, non-judgmental people are completely open minded and non-judgmental about things they agree with.


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## odtexas (Oct 2, 2008)

Jim_bo said:


> While this thread has become monumentally stupid... it does serve a good purpose. It clearly shows who is open minded and rational with respect to eBikes, and who is so biased that they are just grasping at straws trying to find anything they can to *legitimize* eBikes.


See what I did there. 

Disparaging others is really easy when you just cut to name calling.

Ride on.... :thumbsup:


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> Discussion had nothing to do with supporting e-bikes at all..


I think it did.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> I think it did.


You thought wrong.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

tuckerjt07 said:


> You thought wrong.


So that's a fact is it?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> So that's a fact is it?


Concerning the individual you quoted, yes.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Concerning the individual you quoted, yes.


I wasn't talking about an individual, the topic was the purpose of the thread. Which I maintain was to promote eBikes.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> I wasn't talking about an individual, the topic was the purpose of the thread. Which I maintain was to promote eBikes.


And like anyone you are entitled to your opinion. However, that does not mean your opinion is correct or even based in reality.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Mr Pig said:


> I wasn't talking about an individual, the topic was the purpose of the thread. Which I maintain was to promote eBikes.


Luckily you changed it to promoting the idea that people should arrange their lives around your priorities and values rather than their own. Cause you're obviously superior.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

odtexas said:


> See what I did there.
> 
> Disparaging others is really easy when you just cut to name calling.
> 
> Ride on.... :thumbsup:


I don't care how obvious you think you have made it... willfully misquoting someone is wrong. You should delete your post.


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## comtn (Jan 23, 2018)

Not here to argue but I"ll contribute my story. I've dropped 25lbs and counting since buying the e bike. Climbs at altitude took the fun out of riding for me resulting in me driving to bike park, riding motocross instead, or hardly riding locally at all. The e bike allows me to do a 2 hour ride without any breaks enjoying every minute of the ride. At the end of the ride my legs are tired and muscles are sore all over but my heart rate never redlines.

You could say I was too lazy to get in good enough shape on a normal bike and I suppose that would be accurate. 

Lots of ways to skin a cat. I chose a battery and motor to get me out the door.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Once again, why should anyone care whether or not they have your respect?
> What is so special about you that you think you are in a position where people should go around worrying whether Mr Pig approves of what they're doing?
> 
> Newsflash - no one is out there trying to impress you.


I'm not sure that is 100% accurate. It seems like there is a lot of desire for "stealth" in the ebike world. I think a lot of ebikers would prefer a hidden downtube motor over what is on the market now (at least if they were the same price).

Why is that? Maybe those people do care about what others think? I'm not saying all ebikers, just seems like a lot have a desire for their ebike to be easily mistaken for a bicycle.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

comtn said:


> Not here to argue but I"ll contribute my story. I've dropped 25lbs and counting since buying the e bike. Climbs at altitude took the fun out of riding for me resulting in me driving to bike park, riding motocross instead, or hardly riding locally at all. The e bike allows me to do a 2 hour ride without any breaks enjoying every minute of the ride. At the end of the ride my legs are tired and muscles are sore all over but my heart rate never redlines.
> 
> You could say I was too lazy to get in good enough shape on a normal bike and I suppose that would be accurate.
> 
> Lots of ways to skin a cat. I chose a battery and motor to get me out the door.


Good post. I agree 100%. I don't ride for fitness, one thing I'll say is riding my emtb keeps your heart rate in the aerobic threshold and will loose weight. Anaerobic heartrate is great for cardio, but doesn't shed as much. Glad you're enjoying riding. Keep it up!


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

chazpat said:


> I'm not sure that is 100% accurate. It seems like there is a lot of desire for "stealth" in the ebike world. I think a lot of ebikers would prefer a hidden downtube motor over what is on the market now (at least if they were the same price).
> 
> Why is that? Maybe those people do care about what others think? I'm not saying all ebikers, just seems like a lot have a desire for their ebike to be easily mistaken for a bicycle.


I'd think it's more about access than trying to impress strangers.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Anyone got a link to the original article?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

ninjichor said:


> Anyone got a link to the original article?


You mean the one in post #1?


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

comtn said:


> Not here to argue but I"ll contribute my story. I've dropped 25lbs and counting since buying the e bike. Climbs at altitude took the fun out of riding for me resulting in me driving to bike park, riding motocross instead, or hardly riding locally at all. The e bike allows me to do a 2 hour ride without any breaks enjoying every minute of the ride. At the end of the ride my legs are tired and muscles are sore all over but my heart rate never redlines.
> 
> You could say I was too lazy to get in good enough shape on a normal bike and I suppose that would be accurate.
> 
> Lots of ways to skin a cat. I chose a battery and motor to get me out the door.


Good for you.

I do agree that the eBike is a great way to get your fitness started and it is infinitely better than being a couch potato, no doubt. If that's the motivation that it takes, more power to you, seriously!

Now, once your fitness starts to come around will you ditch the eBike to get to another level? Personally, I enjoy the challenge of a long climb on my SS (and yes, many of them are pretty steep) and would never consider additional assists, either in the way of a motor or gears.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Harryman said:


> You mean the one in post #1?


Yea, that original article. If you haven't tried clicking it recently, you may find that it doesn't work.

I'm guessing the OP just copy pasted a redirect link that expires, and probably collects info about our visit/clicks.

Direct article link: https://scienmag.com/riding-an-e-bike-promotes-fitness-and-health-already-after-four-weeks/


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Yes I did.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

Still this absurd debate rages where the two sides are rarely debating the same issue. I have yet to see a pro-eBiker claim that eBikes are bicycles. I have seen them discuss legal definitions and how local authorities regulate them as bicycles, but no one says they are bicycles. Yet the anti-eBike crowd continues to make the unopposed argument that eBikes aren't bicycles!! These anti-eBikers are simply arguing against the wind. They make arguments that eBikes are for the lazy, which is factually incorrect. They argue that eBikes threaten trail access where no such threat has been realized. And the list goes on....



A few interesting things to point out about the inconsistency of anti-eBikers:

-Bicycles originally started as rigid machines. Then bike suspension was developed that drastically increased speed capacity. Yet no one from this group argues that bikes don't have suspension or that full suspension bikes threaten trail access due to speeds.

-Bicycles were originally single speeds. But then there was the advent of multiple geared bikes to assist in making climbing easier. Yet no one from this group rails about multi-geared bikes not providing a comparative workout and only being for the lazy.

-There is a small, and likely to stay small, niche of off-road unicyclers. Yet no one from this group speaks of banning them from MTB trails because bicycles have 2 wheels.

-The concept of shuttle rides, whether by chair lift or pickup truck, is expressly intended to relieve the difficulties of climbing. Yet no one from this group ridicules shuttlers as being lazy, fat, and not worthy of riding on "their" trails.



The interesting thing about technology is that it refuses to be restrained by the compartmentalization of small minds. There are those who see only bicycles and motor vehicles. Yet technology shows us there are many iterations in between.

It is a farce to claim that bicycles are human powered only. We all take advantage of other forms of energy than just bio-mechanical energy. We enjoy the push we get from wind energy when it is at our backs. We love the exploitation of potential energy as we bomb from a high elevation to a low elevation. We create scads of ways that allow us to take more advantage of the energies available to us (i.e. suspension, gearing, lightweight frames/components, low rolling resistance tires, etc.) Exploiting electric energy as an assist to bio-mechanical energy is effectively no different than using the potential energy of a hill to assist bio-mechanical energy. It is using an outside energy source to assist in propulsion of our vehicles.

But there has to be a line. I don't disagree with that. However, I do disagree that the line is at the sophomoric observation that bicycles don't have motors. Class 1 and class 2 eBikes were designed and are best suited for the same trails as MTBs. No one can dispute that point. Therefore, that's where they should be. It would be as inappropriate to restrict a class 1 eBike to OHV trails as if it were a 500cc dirtbike as it would be to push MTBers onto such a trail system. But the anti-eBikers don't care about that. They only seem to care about what they like and they have no tolerance for anything else.


Let's face it... almost every improvement of the MTB over the last 30 - 40 years has been created with the purpose of making MTBs faster and more efficient (read: easier to pedal). Yet our crowd of outraged purists are deafingly silent about this fact. But they rail about eBikes speeds and pedal assistance. So the obvious conclusion is that anti-eBikers hate that which they do not love. If your idea of off road cycling does not match with theirs, then they have no tolerance for people like you. They are zealously biased. They have no legitimate argument to make other than the fact that someone is doing things differently than themselves. We have seen anti-ebikers argue against the wind, blatantly cherry pick data to create nonsensical safety arguments, ignore the black letter of the law, create definitions that only serve their agenda, and make universal arguments based only on what they have seen once or twice on their local trails. This is a group fueled by vitriol and bitterness. They are without legitimate argument or credibility. And as anyone can see, ad hominems are their preferred tool in debating the issue.

Conclusion: arguing against an anti-eBiker is like arguing with a drunk. You cannot have a rational discussion with irrational people.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Jim_bo said:


> Conclusion: arguing against an anti-eBiker is like arguing with a drunk. You cannot have a rational discussion with irrational people.


High-powered electric bikes should not share space with walkers and pedal cyclists. The disparity in speed is dangerous and the weight and torque of the machines can potentially damage certain trails.

It is inevitable that some selfish people will either modify lower powered eBikes to exceed safe limits, or simply buy powerful bikes, and ride them in inappropriate places.

Those charged with regulating and policing trails, parks and paths cannot be expected to differentiate between a low-powered eBike and modified or higher powered bikes at the side of the trail/road. As the technology improves, and eBikes get more stealthy, this task will only become harder.

As it is necessary to keep powerful machines off of the routes in question, there is no option but to blanket ban all electric bikes from them.

Rational enough for you? Just gona keep posting it. The difference between eBikes and other bicycle sub-sets is fundamental, not incremental as you imply. They are powered machines.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Jim_bo said:


> It is a farce to claim that bicycles are human powered only.


IMHO it's a farce to claim otherwise, actually more of a ruse.

Conclusion: A strong rider on 20th century technology (steel single speed) is faster than the vast majority of people on the trail no matter what tech they're on, motors excluded. Bicycles haven't gotten significantly faster.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I am very happy for anyone who is getting fit via ebike.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jim_bo said:


> -The concept of shuttle rides, whether by chair lift or pickup truck, is expressly intended to relieve the difficulties of climbing. Yet no one from this group ridicules shuttlers as being lazy, fat, and not worthy of riding on "their" trails.


Actually, they do.
You see people here all the time trying to re-write MTB history and act like shuttling and downhilling weren't part of the sport from day 1 and laboring under the impression that they're somehow more of a 'real' rider than anyone who enjoys banging out some lift or shuttle runs here and there.

Just more 'purist' nonsense from people with limited experience and a pathetic need to try to make themselves feel superior to others.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jim_bo said:


> I have yet to see a pro-eBiker claim that eBikes are bicycles.
> ...
> 
> Yet the anti-eBike crowd continues to make the unopposed argument that eBikes aren't bicycles!!


Ummm...huh????

So we all agree that e-bikes are NOT bicycles right?


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

Mr Pig said:


> High-powered electric bikes should not share space with walkers and pedal cyclists. The disparity in speed is dangerous and the weight and torque of the machines can potentially damage certain trails.
> 
> It is inevitable that some selfish people will either modify lower powered eBikes to exceed safe limits, or simply buy powerful bikes, and ride them in inappropriate places.
> 
> ...


You're right... I forgot to include the "if it's difficult to enforce the rules, let's ban everything" argument. So, by your painfully simplistic and short-sighted perspective, we should ban semi-automatic rifles because we can't easily tell which ones were illegally converted to full automatic. We should ban all cars and trucks because we can't easily tell which ones have had their emission controls illegally bypassed. Even better, why don't we also ban people freely moving about as we cannot tell easily which person may commit a crime.

Your argument is absurd and insulting to western values. However, it may be a very viable argument in countries like North Korea. Good luck with that.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> IMHO it's a farce to claim otherwise, actually more of a ruse.


You really don't try to see anything other than what you want to see... do you? By your logic, once you stop pedaling, you are no longer on a bicycle. If you allow momentum to power your bike, or potential energy of a hill, then you are not powering the bike with human power alone. Therefore, according to you, the machine you are riding on transforms from being a bicycle, to not a bicycle repeatedly through a ride. How absurd. This is exactly the kind of drunk logic I was speaking about that one cannot have a rational conversation with.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> Actually, they do.
> You see people here all the time trying to re-write MTB history and act like shuttling and downhilling weren't part of the sport from day 1 and laboring under the impression that they're somehow more of a 'real' rider than anyone who enjoys banging out some lift or shuttle runs here and there.
> 
> Just more 'purist' nonsense from people with limited experience and a pathetic need to try to make themselves feel superior to others.


But none of these people are making an argument that shuttling should eliminate access to MTB trails.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ummm...huh????
> 
> So we all agree that e-bikes are NOT bicycles right?


I don't think you can get consensus on what the definition of "bicycle" is. You can get a legal definition from the Code of Federal Regulations, or you can get a legal definition from a local authority, or you can get a dictionary definition (of which there will be many), or you can just use what some zealot thinks the definition should be. As far as I am concerned, the definition is irrelevant. I believe the only relevant issue is what trails a vehicle should have access to. And I believe that a class 1 eBike should have access to the same trails that an MTB has access to.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Jim_bo said:


> I don't think you can get consensus on what the definition of "bicycle" is.


What?? It's been the same for a hundred years. The only people trying to change it are eBikers.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

Mr Pig said:


> What?? It's been the same for a hundred years. The only people trying to change it are eBikers.


More drunk arguing.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Jim_bo said:


> You really don't try to see anything other than what you want to see...


Sounds familiar somehow.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Jim_bo said:


> Blah, Blah, Blah...
> 
> More irrational blather...
> 
> ...


Result:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jim_bo said:


> But none of these people are making an argument that shuttling should eliminate access to MTB trails.


Once again, I have no idea what you're trying to say.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Topic was initially about an article that discovered how two groups of overweight people had similar fitness gains when biking to work, despite one group having pedelecs and another having conventional bikes. Scientific evidence to question the claim that conventional bikes are the superior option over ebikes if you're after fitness. The article did go on talking about other positive aspects observed from the pedelec group, but no one seems to be disagreeing with any of it. Thread just seemed to be derailed by people being militant about not wanting to share trails with anything "motorized". Trails which they seem to think were hard earned, to the point that they think they have a superiority stance in determining how it should be managed.

I'd prefer to leave this to the experts. In my eyes, "both sides" are closed minded. I'd consider someone to be open minded if they moved passed this bickering and tried to discuss solutions, rather than only trying to identify problems (some personal). Solutions regarding how to share, how to be receptive to concerns, and how to improve etiquette. If people could agree on common etiquette, besides "don't show up on my trails with your _emotorbike_, or I don't know how I'll control my rage", we can move on to real problems and drop the stress of people being assholes to each other regarding this topic. Yes, many of you are good at pointing out asshole-like behavior, but do you know the true root cause is your personalities and perceptions and not the ebike itself, and that the solution is fixing your attitude? Shame that people don't want to fix things themselves nor take any personal responsibility... hard to respect someone, or their opinion, when they don't respect their own words enough to fix them.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

ninjichor said:


> I'd consider someone to be open minded if they moved passed this bickering and tried to discuss how to share.


But the sharing is potentially the problem, not the answer?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ninjichor said:


> Topic was initially about an article that discovered how two groups of overweight people had similar fitness gains when biking to work, despite one group having pedelecs and another having conventional bikes. The article did go on talking about other positive aspects observed from the pedelec group, but no one seems to be disagreeing with any of it. Just people being militant about not wanting to share trails with anything "motorized". Trails which they seem to think were hard earned, to the point that they think they have a superiority stance in determining how it should be managed.
> 
> Leaving this to the experts. In my eyes, "both sides" are closed minded. I'd consider someone to be open minded if they moved passed this bickering and tried to discuss how to share. How to be receptive to concerns. How to create solutions, such as new etiquette rules. If people could agree on common etiquette, besides "don't show up on my trails with your emotorbike, or I don't know how I'll control my rage", we can move on to real problems and drop the stress of people being assholes to each other. Yes, you are good at pointing it out, but do you know the true root cause is your personalities and perceptions and not the ebike itself, and that the solution is fixing your attitude?


Change attitudes towards e-motorbikes? To what attitude? One of acceptance or can we settle it with an attitude that they have no place in mountain biking?


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Mr Pig said:


> But the sharing is potentially the problem, not the answer?





life behind bars said:


> Change attitudes towards e-motorbikes? To what attitude? One of acceptance or can we settle it with an attitude that they have no place in mountain biking?


How about some analogy.

Analogy 1: Joey doesn't share food. Joey is a fictional entity. It could be one animal, in a group of animals, who shows such behavior at chow time. Or you can think of a certain sitcom...

What kind of person says the act of sharing is the problem? What kind of person say the problem is the food? Get food that people don't want to share? Don't eat with others? Me saying the true root cause is Joey's personality is apparently insignificant... one solution to this problem is to have the entire outside world that comes into contact with Joey be accommodating to this quirk of his. Joey looking like he could be a thug/mobster probably helps motivate people in this direction.

What happens if some people who thinks Joey's no-food-sharing issue clashes with their belief that sharing food is the proper way, approach him with some aggressive plan to convince him? What if their aggressive plan is to verbally abuse him and threaten to kick them out from the social group? What if their aggressive plan was to just to act inconsiderate of others, acting according to only your own will, taking food from Joey and expecting to be forgiven, as you consider it normal to be sharing food with everyone when eating out? I'll stop here and will just say these options are foolish... replying negatively to negativity just results in a more toxic situation.

What would be the ideal positive outcome, where you see improvement for all? Joey changing to be less adamant about not sharing food? Is such change hard to pull-off?

[HR][/HR]
Right now, there's a ton of "closet supporters" of _socially unaccepted_ things. Do you have some sort of weird fetish that you don't want people to publicly know you have, since it is controversial? Do you like making mean jokes about other people for laughs? Do you seek validation from others to know that these things are more accepted than you think? If you often post, asking if you're not alone in thinking in a certain controversial way, you have the signs of insecurity and are prone to tribalism, which tend to form groups of people who seem to only use a small fraction of the intellectual power to bicker about stuff that people like to judge ignorantly.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

ninjichor said:


> How about some analogy.
> 
> Analogy 1: Joey doesn't share food. Joey is a fictional entity. It could be one animal, in a group of animals, who shows such behavior at chow time. Or you can think of a certain sitcom...
> 
> ...


Ideal outcome? E-motorbikers pick up a freakin shovel and start digging.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

life behind bars said:


> Ideal outcome? E-motorbikers pick up a freakin shovel and start digging.


I see you're doubling down out people getting their own food. xD

I'm sure the local trail foundations near you wouldn't decline money coming from ebikers. Do you think they'll be hurting if a bunch of judgmental people decided to boycott them because they aren't anti-ebike?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

ninjichor said:


> Thread just seemed to be derailed


yeah, it has strayed far from the tracks, time to close it down.


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