# Foes Mutz Meets Lefty PLUS 14,000Ws of Power



## vipertriplex (Jul 29, 2016)

This could turn out to be one tragic horror story, but with your help, we could possibly turn this into one hell of a monster movie. 
A small snag on what is turning out to be a very promising build... Small oversight on my part that perhaps someone could advise me on.
This is to be a Winter Slope Slammer... Simply put, just another go fast thing to do stupid things with in the snow.
2016 Foes Muts frame... This thing is drop dead gorgeous. Hats off to the guys over at Foes Racing... If you could afford one I would Highly Recommend one... Construction of their frames are from a fabricators stand point, Amazing! A no brainer for this project. 
2016 Cannondale Olaf Lefty Fork... Why be subjected to older model Lefties with huge adaptor clamps and added instability when POOF!!! Cannonades done all the work for me and pretty sexy as well. Not quite the 140mm I was hoping for but 100mm will do just fine... Ill just ride it on the Bunny Slopes...
Here is the problem- The joining of the two is going to be made possible by the use of a Project 321 Tapered Lefty Adaptor. The headtube length is 120mm. The fork spacing is the largest they had in the Olaf version which was 134mm.
Heres my oversight- This thing is being tricked with the best. Thomson Stem, Titanium Riser Bars, Hed Big Deals so naturally I went with Chris King for my headset. The Ooops was with the stack hight. 
The frame is running a tapered ZS44 Top and a EC49 on the Bottom. At least thats what the guys over at Foes recommend I use. In ordering I checked the stack hight to insure I would fall within the 134mm fork spacing and saw that the stack of the Chris King Inset3 was 14mm. That with the 120mm headtube length gave me exactly 134mm. So i thought. Turns out I never bothered to add the top set stack of 8mm. So now Im over 8mm. 
Ive checked all over for a EC49 in a Zerostack but still kept coming up with 10+mm on the lower stack. What I need is something that fits more or less flush with the lower headtube rather then protrude from the bottom.
Oh yeah... Im also throwing in a Cromotor & 14,000w controller. 
Thanks in advance for your replies...


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## exp18 (Feb 15, 2012)

Why?? Why would you ruin a great build by putting some heavy a$$ electric motor on it. Dump the electric motor, dump the lefty buy a wren fork you will have an amazing bike. Then if you still have the need for a throttle go buy a real motorbike.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

vipertriplex said:


> Oh yeah... Im also throwing in a Cromotor & 14,000w controller.
> Thanks in advance for your replies...


My reply is...please go away.


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## vipertriplex (Jul 29, 2016)

watermonkey said:


> My reply is...please go away.


Wow, I ask for advise on a headset and out come the haters.... As for why I would do such a thing is because I can do such a thing... I see you put yours together very much like my first and thats cool as well... Only much too tame for myself... I come from a long line of extremist where harder downhills and bigger jumps is what we are after... Getting back to the top as quick as possible helps to go down faster as well. Got a garage full of toys and as for why I would want to add a 70mph fat bike to the lot is because I can, and with all the trimmings. 
Just because I don't want to peddle a third of what you have to and get an even more exhilarating ride out of mine is no reason to hate. 
Honestly, I build for the fun of it... So what if its not practical. If I wanted practicality I would ride my Trek. If I wanted moto, I could take out my YZ. I just recently picked up an HPC that put the bug in my ear for another only bigger faster and fatter... Again, just because I can
I hope I was able to satisfy your why, Stay in touch, I get tired of these things quick and if it gets in the way of my car you might be able to pick it up from me at a steal and build it whichever way you like... Guaranteed, I won't ask why!!!

Anyway, could someone tell me if a ZS49 can be used in place of a EC49...


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## vipertriplex (Jul 29, 2016)

watermonkey said:


> My reply is...please go away.


And what are you riding? Now that sounds like a Huffy owner... Pedal on Dude!!!


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

You're certainly doing some pioneering there.

To me it looks like 14Kw would tie that frame in knots when full power is applied - have you done the calculations for that? 

I think you need something much beefier in frame and with bigger rear suspension bearings for a start. There's a reason why motorbikes aren't lighter, and that's effectively what you're building. In your shoes I'd look at a custom frame with single pivot suspension - you don't need all those flimsy small bearings used in a multi-linkage suspension when you have so much power, just one nice big bearing and a beefy swing arm.

It may also be worth looking at brakes with better ability to dissipate heat, or doubling up the brakes at the front at the very least. 

It'll be a hoot if it works, but just take care you don't end up in a wheelchair.

As for using it on bicycle trails, that's a matter between you and your locals.


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## vipertriplex (Jul 29, 2016)

Velobike said:


> You're certainly doing some pioneering there.
> 
> To me it looks like 14Kw would tie that frame in knots when full power is applied - have you done the calculations for that?
> 
> ...


Funny, Im reading your post and Star Trek is playing in the background, "where no man has gone before"...
The rear arm as it is will hold up but not for long. That motors a torque monster but controllable through the ESCs parameters. Modifications to the arm are defiantly required. Nothing a few extra gussets can take care of. As for brakes Im going with the Magura MT7 Limited Edition. I have these on my trek and the thing can do endoes like nobodies business on 203 Shimano Ice Tech Rotors.
As for the neighbors, they don't mind. 9 times out of ten its me jumping out of there way... Its mostly intended for winter riding... We all know riding in the snow can be a pain especially when it gets deep... Well rather then turn back like most this is intended to plow straight through...
And thanks... Ill try to keep it under 50....


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

vipertriplex said:


> ...The rear arm as it is will hold up but not for long. That motors a torque monster but controllable through the ESCs parameters. Modifications to the arm are defiantly required. Nothing a few extra gussets can take care of. As for brakes Im going with the Magura MT7 Limited Edition. I have these on my trek and the thing can do endoes like nobodies business on 203 Shimano Ice Tech Rotors...


It's the size of the bearings and the stiffness of the rear end that I think will be your biggest problems. Fabricating a replacement may be easier than gusseting up the existing one - there's some pretty thin material in it.

The brakes are fine for a few stops, but I suspect that their ability to disperse heat may be exceeded when the bike is motorised. However there's one way to find out, but I'd try to find a way to fit a small motorbike brake if I was in your shoes.

Be sure to post up pics of your modifications.


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## Steve Balogh (Feb 20, 2008)

Sorry, no answer for your stack issue, but I have to ask what do you intend to use for tires? One thing thing showed up a few years back when someone was using a fat bike in harsh conditions is that most fat bike tires were never made for abuse. Many have thin sidewalls to cut down on the weight. The result is shredding the tire or blowing it right off the rim. It's like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Too bad Nokian stopped making the 3.0 Gazza, heavy tire but with a high torque motor that may have been the best tires made for this kind of abuse. Sounds like you will be riding in snow, but just like snowmobiles, I've seen them tear down through the snow into the dirt. Can't imagine doing that with a typical fat bike tire.

EDIT: Did this thread get moved out of the fat bike forum? My post might be irrelevant if you are not using fat bike tires, but still could be if you are using thin MTB tires that are not DH specific.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2016)

Steve Balogh said:


> EDIT: Did this thread get moved out of the fat bike forum?


yes and placed here thankfully.


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## vipertriplex (Jul 29, 2016)

Steve Balogh said:


> Sorry, no answer for your stack issue, but I have to ask what do you intend to use for tires? One thing thing showed up a few years back when someone was using a fat bike in harsh conditions is that most fat bike tires were never made for abuse. Many have thin sidewalls to cut down on the weight. The result is shredding the tire or blowing it right off the rim. It's like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Too bad Nokian stopped making the 3.0 Gazza, heavy tire but with a high torque motor that may have been the best tires made for this kind of abuse. Sounds like you will be riding in snow, but just like snowmobiles, I've seen them tear down through the snow into the dirt. Can't imagine doing that with a typical fat bike tire.
> .


Now this is the kind of stuff I come here for...
In all honesty, I never gave it much thought at all. I was planning on running 4.0 but hadn't gotten to tires just yet. I just figured Id review a few top 5s and go from there but looks as if you just cleared a spot and the table...
I was hoping to find something beaded with a heavier wall then that of folding and yes this is being made for snow and downhill use but may find its way onto an occasional track or two.

Id like to take credit for this idea but this was done before. Not a Lefty with 14,000w but a Wren and 10,000w. I saw a video somewhere while cruising of a guy from Russia who built one getting Jiggy. He wrote of how incredibly well the frame held up to the torque of his MXUS motor. Tail whipping grabbing huge air. I thought that would make a cool build. 
I just got done modding up my HPC XC-3 and got that doing 80mph. Still got the whole electric thing pumping strong so in come the parts.
Tires, defiantly something I am going to be researching and would like to thank you for bringing it up... My buddies are coming in now and this just started a cool conversation


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Why have pedals at all if you have 14kW? At best you might be able to sustainably put out 300 or so... which is like 2% of the total vehicle power.

-Walt


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## vipertriplex (Jul 29, 2016)

Walt said:


> Why have pedals at all if you have 14kW? At best you might be able to sustainably put out 300 or so... which is like 2% of the total vehicle power.
> 
> -Walt


The crank system being used is a Schlumpf High Speed. 2.5 to 1. Haven't quite decided on my ring gear just yet and try a few first till I get comfortable. Be able to pedal along to 50 60mph... Every little ti counts. And the cranks stay on because outside of it having an electric motor its still just a bicycle. Its not intended to be riden like my Street or Dirt bike. Its meant for slope riding in the winter. Pack away the snowboard honey, Papas going to give a whole new meaning to fresh powder.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

It is not a bicycle


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

This thread belongs on endless-sphere.........


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

vipertriplex said:


> And the cranks stay on because outside of it having an electric motor its still just a bicycle.


That's hilarious. If I put cranks on my XR650R is it a bicycle?

FWIW, too, 300W will make no measurable difference in your speed at 60mph. If you just want to pedal for fun, great. But you're not contributing anything worthwhile.

-Walt


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## vipertriplex (Jul 29, 2016)

True, more so just to pedal along but you also forgot while having all this fun going up and down the batteries aren't going to last forever... Id rather limp home then to wait for AAA on the side of a mountain... And as for your bike, a 650R, you may as well put pedals on it.. Might improve your performance..


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Not to be totally rude but this thread doesn't barely even belong in MTBR. An electric motorcycle with pedals isn't a mountain bike at all. There is some other forums on the net for that. These are what's going to begin to cause problems for the MTB community. Beast bikes being built and discussed, other see the threads and take it as they can build them and ride on our trails. There goes trail access right down the shitter. Now you obviously have no intention of riding yours in the wrong areas but the risk of giving morons wrong ideas can cause all kinds off problems for the rest of us. Been better to leave the motor build details out of it. 

As for the headset issue, your stuck with what the frame accepts to use the forks you want. Not an option there. Headsets aren't complicated. There's a hand full of options to fit the standards, some to adapt and that's pretty much it. If your head tube isnt able to fit the fork design you want and headset the way you want it, then it's accept what's required or get a different frame.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

You belong here( Endless-sphere.com) not on this forum I am going in the opposite direction I am selling a brand new 3000w set up and going to a 750w middrive . I ride a lot of mt bike trails in city ,state parks with my 500w hub motor but a few days ago I got a top of the line HPC 3000w plus hub kit which I have for sale on the endless sphere right now. You can not use your setup on any city or state park trails or any bike path .


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

If it isn't Class 1, 2 or 3 it really does not belong here irregardless of where you intend to ride it or what you based your build on.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

exp18 said:


> Why?? Why would you ruin a great build by putting some heavy a$$ electric motor on it.





watermonkey said:


> My reply is...please go away.





Walt said:


> Why have pedals at all if you have 14kW?
> -Walt





sfgiantsfan said:


> It is not a bicycle





WoodlandHills said:


> This thread belongs on endless-sphere.........





tigris99 said:


> Not to be totally rude but this thread doesn't barely even belong in MTBR.





rider95 said:


> You belong here( Endless-sphere.com) not on this forum


Meow!!!! The cats smell fish 

Although the OP is asking about dealing with his stack height on a MTB frame with MTB forks. Plenty of people here know all about that. But to help would be a 14 thousand watt war crime, right?

That level of electricity......he's a matador with a very red cape around here.  The bulls are running. Even some of the E-bulls, LOL

He is not telling anybody else to do the same. He's not waxing about how he will ride it where he is not supposed to. He's asking MTB questions about MTB components.

OP Next time just leave the part about the electric motor out  They think anything over 750watts is like the saturn V rocket, and a fundamentally evil machine.

Lots of confusion and angst about identity here. 

But what he describes is a e-bike and even a pedelec, which is what this forum is for, no? It would be perfectly legal on a motorized trail, and plenty of MTB trails are motorized.

Walt, you know mucho about making frames, you are clueless about E-possiblites, and how they might appeal to others. The pedals actually work, or don't you get that. Electricity does run out, and at 14K pretty fast 

"Just get a moto, dude" Seriously? The guy is going to ride this instead of his loud hot heavy moto, and some of you just heckle him? So lame.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Ask the question on the appropriate forum and leave out the part about the electric power (unless you want to brag about it again). If you read any of the posts here, some think a one (1) watt (w) motor constitutes a motorcycle. There are plenty of really knowledgeable bike builders on MTBR, but not necessarily on this forum.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

vipertriplex said:


> Pedal on Dude!!!


Maybe you should take your own advice. This is exactly the reason I am anti-ebike.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

There are a ton of moto trails in GJ that you could ride this on, sure. But it's an electric moto with a bailout pedaling system for when you run out of power, not a bicycle. 

I think the chances of using a Mutz to go 60mph on snow (powder, no less!) using fatbike tires/parts, built by someone who can't figure out stack height, are pretty low. But you never know. Hopefully OP will survive. 

This is the kind of thing e-bike advocates need to wrestle with, too. What are you going to do if lots of people like the OP show up on your local trails?

-Walt


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

WoodlandHills said:


> This thread belongs on endless-sphere.........


Indeed it does. :thumbsup:



uhoh7 said:


> But what he describes is a e-bike and even a pedelec, which is what this forum is for, no?


Sorry, but no. A Pedelec is a specific term describing the 250w/15.5mph pedal assist only euro ebike, a S-pedelec is a 28mph limit ebike, throttle or PAS. His vehicle in europe and here would at a minimum be classified as a moped, it's not an ebike.

Fyi, because of the 20mph limit, your bike is a S-pedelec.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Anything not legal, just like ICE, report it to the Rangers (too old for confrontations unless my family is at risk).


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2016)

fos'l said:


> Anything not legal, just like ICE, report it to the Rangers (too old for confrontations unless my family is at risk).


yup, dispose of the dbags.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> This is the kind of thing e-bike advocates need to wrestle with, too. What are you going to do if lots of people like the OP show up on your local trails?
> 
> -Walt


I hope you start to join lots of threads on bike tech to tell them to be sure to stay off hiking trails. Otherwise I smell a major double standard.

In a current thread on access at a particular location, one guy noted he had been riding the trails in question regularly for years. No one said a word.

The whole early history of mtb riding is full of poaching, and plenty still goes on. Very little is said besides "shut up" 

Yet EVERY e-bike thread is full of elaborate concerns and hysterical hypotheticals about who is riding what where. To a degree far beyond the norm on the site.

It's totally off the topic of this thread that's for sure. I could see concerned comments to a poster bragging about poaching with his e-bike. In this case you all just assume the bike will be ridden illegally. Such BS :madman:


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Of course I tell people to stay off hiking trails. What does that even mean? 

There's not as much poaching as you think. There are a lot of middle aged normal people with kids and real lives trying to enjoy the outdoors on bikes. They don't poach, and they don't show up in rad Youtube edits. But they're the vast majority of mountain bikers.

A 14kW "bike" is a motorcycle. Full stop. It does not belong here any more than an ICE moto.

-Walt


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## WoodlandHills (Nov 18, 2015)

Walt said:


> A 14kW "bike" is a motorcycle. Full stop. It does not belong here any more than an ICE moto.
> 
> -Walt


 Agreed, our discussions (and disputes) are limited to Class 1 and perhaps Class 2 ebikes and not other vehicles. We all agree that 14kw ebikes and 140hp shuttles belong someplace else..........


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Get the lefty adapter with a straight 1 1/8 steerer and then you can work it in with a lower profile lower headset cup.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> A 14kW "bike" is a motorcycle. Full stop. It does not belong here any more than an ICE moto.
> 
> -Walt


Perhaps you should make a sticky about what can be discussed. 

It's a mountain bike frame with a electric drive and pedals. His question was about the frame.

Because he has that drive on there, it's immoral to answer the question which is about mtb hardware?


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

I guess I'm confused as to why not just buy a nice motor bike? The total investment can't be to different between the two.


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## exp18 (Feb 15, 2012)

JVG1967 said:


> I guess I'm confused as to why not just buy a nice motor bike? The total investment can't be to different between the two.


Because then you couldn't pouch the non-motorized trails and not be noticed from a mile away.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

JVG1967 said:


> I guess I'm confused as to why not just buy a nice motor bike? The total investment can't be to different between the two.


Hmm. If you have to ask, you probably wouldn't understand. No doubt it would be more practical (and safer!) to go with a proven technology and internal combustion. But some people still like to tinker and build things. That's what this type of project boils down to.

Although I'm sure that blasting a big rooster with almost no engine sound would be quite fun!


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