# HELP - Size L women's bike VS size M men's bike??



## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm desperate and need some women's advice here. In the past I've made the experience that women do sit differently on a mountain bike than men do. They usually prefer to sit more upright and less streched out. I wanna respect that and instead of giving advice based solely on my own preferences/convictions know what you think about that and how you would decide.

Now a female friend of mine who's a beginner with body proportions of

176cm / 5'9" body height
84cm / 33" inseam

is looking for a mountain bike. I'm slightly taller than her with longer legs (180cm size/88cm inseam) and do ride a Giant Trance SX size L. She did like my bike very much although it's slightly too long/tall for her. Now we've looked around and narrowed down the choices between 
a 2016 LIV Intrigue 1 size L,
a 2017 LIV Hail 1 size M and
a 2016 Giant Trance SX size M. (Unfortunately the LIV Intrigue SX is not available in size L)

What irritates me is that the Intrigue size L is taller (more stack) yet still shorter in reach than the M size Giant Trance. But if she prefers to sit more upright maybe it's the better choice for a beginner?

On the other hand, the new 2017 LIV Hail 1 in size medium is a good amount longer than the medium Men's Trance SX and even slightly longer than the large Men's Trance SX (!)

Which one would you go for as a taller woman and why? Unfortunately no Intrigue testbikes in this size are available in our region and the LIV Hail 1 won't be available either for testing till end of this month!

Pictures of LIV Intrigue frames in size L
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/model/intrigue.1/22240/84063/























Giant Trance SX size M
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/model/trance.sx.27.5/22207/84047/























LIV Hail 1










As you can see on the pictures the Intrigue looks much shorter and more upright. The LIV Hail looks closer to the Trance SX and has lots of standover.

Geometry comparison:
The fork on the Trance SX can be dropped to 140 which steepens the headangle to 67 and equals travel on both bikes @140mm front/rear.









LIV Hail 2017 160/160 travel (fork can be dropped to 130mm)










Trance SX with fork @160








Trance SX with [email protected]









Note: This is more about general fit / frame geometry and less about components. I'm aware that the LIV Intrigue is not a perfect match for the Trance SX which comes with a different setup (wider tires, adjustable 140-160mm fork, shorter stem, wider handlebar) but that's nothing that cannot be changed out on either frame.

We wanna order ASAP, input appreciated!


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

> They usually prefer to sit more upright and less streched out.


I've never heard of this by gender, only by whether someone (male or female) prefers a more slack/all mountain type geometry, or a less slack/XC race style geometry.

Height is more than just inseam. Torso length is huge in terms of fit, male or female. Cock pit size is going to vary regardless of inseam length saddle height.

For some weird reason they put a lot of stack and a long stem on intrigues. I know a LOT of women who ride that bike and we've universally lowered the stack, shortened the stem to around 50mm, and wider bar. So, things like stack should be irrelevant. You should be considering the overall cock pit and how that relates to her proportions. There's no reason that either bike won't work if the frame is more or less correct.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

formica said:


> For some weird reason they put a lot of stack and a long stem on intrigues.


I think Giant/LIV designed the frame with an upright seating position in mind but also had to make some more geometry adjustments to compensate for its negative effects who come along as riders sitting too upright usually struggle to shift enough weight over their front wheel on downhills and thus lack tire traction / wash out

So they
- further increased chainstay length (moves wheel weight balance forward when standing on the pedals)
- steepened the headangle by 1° (again to shift more weight over front wheel and ease up steering)
- specced a 10mm longer stem (slower steering but more leverage + more weight above front wheel)



formica said:


> I know a LOT of women who ride that bike and we've universally lowered the stack, shortened the stem to around 50mm, and wider bar.


Why did they all opt for the Intrigue in the first place and just didn't go with a Trance instead given all that adjustments that were "universally necessary" on the Intrigue to lower that too high stack into reasonable territory?

Sounds like many women don't like the fit of the bike as it comes stock?

I'm more worried about reach than stack. I could still lower the cockpit by removing all spacers (-28mm) and running a different handlebar but there's not way to lengthen the frame if it's too short and the stock stem is already pretty long @80mm.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

First of all, don't come in here looking for advice and then proceed to rip apart the replies you get. That's rude. You came in and asked the women, listen to them. 

If you are worried about the reach, look at cockpit length. Tell me that most people don't tweak stem length, stack and bars on almost any bike. The stock stem on the Intrique does seems to be truly puzzling but that is easily remedied.

And yes, I know a lot (maybe 15 or so? Would you like me to enumuerate them for you? Overall it seems we prefer the Intrigue because we like the way it rides and feels. As in fun, playful, stable, easy to jump, fast....

Let me qualify what I said earlier. Not everyone changes their stem/stack/bar right away or ever, but I do suggest it to riders for improved handling. It's usually the lower end rider who leave it stock.

I still don't get the focus on upright. Most slack geometry bikes have "sit up and beg" (upright?) feel over an XC race bike, and have been like that for years.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Sorry I didn't mean to sound rude, I streamlined my above comment and hereby apologize.

What do you think about the new 2017 LIV Hail vs Trance SX? They're pretty close apart from rear wheel travel?

I'm worried it might be an overkill for trail riding to start with a 160mm travel enduro rig but maybe skills develop faster if the bike calls for it?


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

I can see I shop for bikes very differently from how you do. I hop on the bikes and ride them, and don't pay more than cursory attention to comparing numbers. I have great faith in the guys at my LBS when they tell me to try something. They know my bike history and my riding style. If I started comparing degrees and making spread sheets my head would explode.

I've heard the negative comments from people reviewing the geometry where people, guys, will say they don't think the numbers make sense. They don't actually ride it though, just say stuff.


> I think Giant/LIV designed the frame with an upright seating position in mind but also had to make some more geometry adjustments to compensate for its negative effects who come along as riders sitting too upright usually struggle to shift enough weight over their front wheel on downhills and thus lack tire traction / wash out


 but I have yet to talk to ANYONE (and yes, I mean ANYONE) who has experienced this. I certainly haven't, and I am a very skilled technical rider. 
Really what I want to say is "washout? lack of traction? struggle to get weight over the front, wtf are you talking about?" I hopped on this bike and my riding went up another level.

What I think is they(LIV)tried something different that doesn't make sense to some people,and it's really working for a lot of women.

I recently spent a weekend at a women's retreat responded by LIV. It wasn't just for LIV riders, it was for any woman. They did bring the Intrigue demo fleet for one day of trail riding and one day of lift serve, and quite a few women took advantage of the demos. I heard some complaints from one or two gals who just never got the right fit/feel but washing out/traction loss/no weight on the front was never them.



> Why did they all opt for the Intrigue in the first place and just didn't go with a Trance instead given all that adjustments that were universally necessary on the Intrigue to lower that too high stack into reasonable territory?
> 
> Sounds like many woman don't like the fit of the bike as it comes stock?


I have to couch my earlier remarks. The entry level riders I go with generally take it stock and are perfectly fine, and they are more better when we (the advanced gals) suggest they switch to short bars/stack/wider bars. For those of us that set our bikes up right away, it's not our first setup like that. We know what we like, and we just do it.

From what I've seen the LIV feels right for a lot of women, not all. I've never ridden a trance but my hub rides one.

I haven't compared the trance to the hail. I'm waiting for the Hail delivery in October. Comparing isn't even on my radar. I'll try and see how it feels and go from there.

here are some pics of the LIV in action. If you haven't figured it out, you can have my Intrigue when you pry it out of my cold dead hands.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Here's what I think. Buy the Intrigue stock. Put her through a skills clinic weekend or event. Once she's comfortable and ready, then see if she like a 50MM stem and wider bars. Once a rider has a few miles under their belt they can really appreciate the differences in handling.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

I'm generally a medium men's, large women's. I'm 5'7" w a 33.3" inseam, and 21" arm length. You need to determine what reach she needs. My saddle to bar drop is pretty high if I don't
Find a bike with a high stack. Don't expect it would be that bad with her as her torso is at least 2.6" longer. Competitor cyclist have very clear directions on how to measure arm length, if you aren't sure.


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## Steel Calf (Feb 5, 2010)

Thanks for everyone who replied, she did testride the Trance but didn't like it and eventually decided for a BMC Speedfox 02 XT which is a 29er bike.

However, another friend ordered a LIV Intrigue 1 and I'll report back how it goes.


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