# Garmin Basecamp or Ride With GPS or...?



## injected59 (Aug 14, 2016)

Hello, I recently purchased a Garmin Etrex 20x. I am wondering what your preferred choice is for route planning and downloading routes to the device. I have been playing around with ride with GPS, but then my Garmin arrived and I noticed they offer Basecamp. 

I am planning a 3 day trip up in WI in about 30 days so I have a steep learning curve and would prefer to not waste my time on a software I may inevitably switch to after learning some of this stuff.

Thanks Chris


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

subed cause I am also curious about this


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Every service is going to vary. If you have a Garmin handheld, you'll need to use Basecamp for some things. It's free, so play with it and decide what you prefer using it for.

RWGPS is a nifty tool. Other sites do similar things, but I like RWGPS. It helps that certain events also publish routes on the site that I can use for planning. Just as a note, the local Tour de Fat published its bike parade route on RWGPS recently. Not that one really needs to put that into a GPS to follow, it's at least something I can look at beforehand and know what's involved. It gives an elevation profile and so on and so forth.

It works really well for planning routes that involve a mixture of roads and trails and whatever. I'm not exactly thrilled with the actual results of trying to follow a pre-planned route on my mtb on singletrack, though. That stuff is never mapped accurately enough for the GPS to recognize that you're actually on the trail the whole time (even though you are) and so "off trail" warnings are frequent, and rather annoying. Turning those warnings off entirely is an imperfect solution, because it's important to get those when you make a wrong turn. The way all that works is MUCH better when you're dealing with roads, because roads are much more accurately mapped in most cases.

If I don't plan to actually "follow" the route on my GPS, though, and I just use it for planning purposes, RWGPS is great because it lets you draw the route out on the map, snapping to the roads/trails (with the ability to turn that function on/off as you need to cross things like parking lots or areas where the map is off, or if you have to switch to the satellite image to see a trail that doesn't show up on OSM maps that RWGPS uses, or any number of other reasons) to help follow the curves of the roads/trails with fewer clicks. Not sure if this function will work with your model of GPS, but on my Edge, it will automatically insert turn warnings, and it's also possible to manually insert notifications (part of a paid subscription).

It's definitely worth trying out and playing with. While you CAN plan routes on Basecamp, it works rather differently and misses out on many of those sorts of functions. TBH, I only use it for preparing/loading basemaps onto my GPSes.


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## injected59 (Aug 14, 2016)

Harold said:


> Every service is going to vary. If you have a Garmin handheld, you'll need to use Basecamp for some things. It's free, so play with it and decide what you prefer using it for.
> 
> RWGPS is a nifty tool. Other sites do similar things, but I like RWGPS. It helps that certain events also publish routes on the site that I can use for planning. Just as a note, the local Tour de Fat published its bike parade route on RWGPS recently. Not that one really needs to put that into a GPS to follow, it's at least something I can look at beforehand and know what's involved. It gives an elevation profile and so on and so forth.
> 
> ...


Harold, Thanks for that. I will stick with RWGPS for now. I don't quite understand the Garmin software. The basecamp map is pointless and doesn't show small roads, and the upgraded Garmin map I'm supposed to buy is $50. Then there's mapsource which seems like basecamps little brother and also has a shitty map. This stuff is so confusing for the uninformed. I really wish someone would write a sticky on this subject starting with the most rudimentary aspects.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

There is a series of informative posts being discussed. So many topics to address that it'll be tough and take awhile.

Yeah, get maps from gpsfiledepot.com. there are many. Detailed topos. Some trail maps (depending on where you are). Some other stuff, too. They come packaged as self-installing executable files, so just run 'em and then they will appear in Basecamp as selectable from a dropdown menu.

Mapsource is Basecamp's predecessor. Does most of the same stuff, but isn't supported anymore, so many new devices don't connect with it. But if you have an old one it will work. I find the interface to make more sense, though.

Honestly, either one of these is really the only way you can package base maps for a Garmin handheld and ensure they will fit on the device. Apparently Trailforks offers a sort of Garmin basemap packaging service that bypasses Garmin's software entirely, but it is trickier to choose an area without exceeding your device's capacity. Plus, you have to pay into TF's trail donation system or something to get access. I am not really a fan. There are also other places to find maps, but IMO, gpsfiledepot is the best.

You can also make your own, which is kinda cool. Say you just want to see the route you plan to take on your topo/road map for your area. Plot said route on RWGPS and download it as a .gpx track. Download the program GPX2IMG. Load your route gpx file and convert it toa Garmin img file. Load that into Basecamp (will involve saving it in the correct place). Select the map area you want to put onto your gps. You will have to select from both the topo basemap AND your route that you made, because Basecamp will package them into a single file. Once you select the maps you want, send them to your etrex. You won't be able to have the gps "navigate" your map for you this way (additional steps with more expensive software are required for that part), but you can still load the original gpx file to habe the gps follow if you want that. Since you already made it, it is minimal effort to put a copy onto the etrex just in case.



injected59 said:


> Harold, Thanks for that. I will stick with RWGPS for now. I don't quite understand the Garmin software. The basecamp map is pointless and doesn't show small roads, and the upgraded Garmin map I'm supposed to buy is $50. Then there's mapsource which seems like basecamps little brother and also has a shitty map. This stuff is so confusing for the uninformed. I really wish someone would write a sticky on this subject starting with the most rudimentary aspects.


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## Fatbikefan (Oct 12, 2017)

*Pros/cons of Garvin vs iPhone / Gaia vs RWGPS*



injected59 said:


> Harold, Thanks for that. I will stick with RWGPS for now. I don't quite understand the Garmin software. The basecamp map is pointless and doesn't show small roads, and the upgraded Garmin map I'm supposed to buy is $50. Then there's mapsource which seems like basecamps little brother and also has a shitty map. This stuff is so confusing for the uninformed. I really wish someone would write a sticky on this subject starting with the most rudimentary aspects.


Harold, you forgot more than I will ever know on this subject! Thanks for your insight! Can you comment on pros/cons of Gaia on iPhone vs Garmin or this RWGPS for a newbie. Ease of use on weekend bikepacking would be my primary goal. I hope my question is similar in spirit of original question. Thank you!


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Fatbikefan said:


> Harold, you forgot more than I will ever know on this subject! Thanks for your insight! Can you comment on pros/cons of Gaia on iPhone vs Garmin or this RWGPS for a newbie. Ease of use on weekend bikepacking would be my primary goal. I hope my question is similar in spirit of original question. Thank you!


My use of phone apps for nav purposes is minimal and restricted to rare use of trailforks or mtbproject. Both work well for trail networks, when the data for that trail system has been submitted to the site. Each site has places with better coverage, so I will use either depending on that. I don't care for the fact that when I am out of cell reception, neither will cache the basemap or sat image, even though they save the trail data. Sucks when I also need to know about roads that pass through a trail network. I can't really comment on others.

I do not use RWGPS as an app. When I talk about RWGPS, I am specifically referencing their website functionality.

I have my Garmin rides funneled automatically to a few different places by connecting services. Strava and RWGPS are the two big ones. There are a couple other minor ones I do for specific things, but involve minimal active use. I am less a fan of rwgps as a ride cataloguing service, but it does work. I like the social aspect of strava, and less so the way it helps me gauge my improvement on sections of trail.

I like my Garmin and my primary backup/reference is a good ol paper map. Phone nav apps fall much farther down the list due to the limitations most have.

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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

I have to say...because I used to think I was smart...but Basecamp and the rest of Garmin's software confuses the **** out of me.

This is not a dig at Garmin, it's fans, or anybody. I use the Etrex30 (and a backup ETrex20) and I think I've done alright downloading the appropriate tracks as needed.


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## fotooutdoors (Jul 8, 2010)

I will second the use of ridewithgps for route planning, though they don't have all trail networks on their map layers. I also use a bit of gpsbable, and qgis for running between formats and smashing together multiple gpx files (for when rwgps doesn't have trails). I'm not running a separate GPS; I use an app (Android only, I believe) called osmand to load gpx, state base maps, and topo maps onto my phone.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

I've been using GAIA GPS on a phone for ~5 years or so, for riding, bikepacking, backpacking, and boating.

I don't miss the frustrations and inadequacies of standalone GPS one bit.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Garmin has always written **** software. You are not alone.

Basecamp's user interface is just weird.

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## evdog (Mar 18, 2007)

I've been using Ride w GPS a lot lately. Not as an app but on the computer like someone mentioned. It is a pretty good program and has some very useful map layers (USGS scans in particular). Editing tracks is kind of clunky but it seems to be the case with a lot of programs. I did buy the subscription at $50/yr so which is needed for some functionality. 

I've been meaning to try Gaia as well. A few friends use it and like it, but I don't want to pay for a second subscription right now. Previously I have used Topofusion. I do like it, but it seems to always have trouble downloading map tiles for the map layers I want to use. But it is a good one for editing and creating tracks. 

I have a Garmin Oregon 600 now and while I like it, probably won't be buying another unless Garmin incorporates the satellite communication ability of the Inreach into it. Otherwise I'll be going with phone apps as their capability is constantly improving. Right now the main weakness for many is inability to download basemaps with topo data for entire states. Seems like they only allow you to download tiles when you have service. But if you forget to do that, all you have is a line on a pretty much blank map.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

evdog said:


> I've been meaning to try Gaia as well. A few friends use it and like it, but I don't want to pay for a second subscription right now. Previously I have used Topofusion. I do like it, but it seems to always have trouble downloading map tiles for the map layers I want to use. But it is a good one for editing and creating tracks.


Pretty sure GAIA is a one-time ~$20 fee, then it's yours forever. Worth every penny IMO.

I used and liked TF a ~decade ago. Even gave Scott a Mac laptop to encourage him to create a Mac friendly version. He's too busy effing around with bikes and now boats to bother.


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## evdog (Mar 18, 2007)

You might be grandfathered in at a $20 lifetime fee. If that was the cost now I'd get it for sure. But I see $20/yr now for basic and $40/yr for premium membership which has the more useful map layers. 

Agreed TF has gotten less useful. There are aspects of it I like and since I do own it I'll continue to use it, but the issues downloading map tiles makes it impossible to use at times. 

How is Gaia for pre-downloading map tiles? I often go into road trips with loose plans so I'd have to download a lot in advance for navigation. That's the one good thing about my Garmin is I have all of CA, AZ, CO, UT installed as full topo base maps so I never have to remember to download before i go.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I have also found reduced usefulness of Topofusion. I used to love it, but I also have problems with the map tile servers. I have gone so far as to add some custom map servers over the years, too. 

But, as tech has progressed, there are features I like that TF doesn't really offer. Like RWGPS's course building tool. Really useful. I would bet it would be possible to access a trail network layer via an api (tf seems like it would be more amenable to such an arrangement to me) for planning purposes.

I would love it if scott would update the program again.

Mostly nowadays, I use the program for file conversions. It's still one of the simplest ways to convert a .gpx or .kml into a .shp for gis use.

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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

evdog said:


> I have a Garmin Oregon 600 now and while I like it, probably won't be buying another unless Garmin incorporates the satellite communication ability of the Inreach into it. Otherwise I'll be going with phone apps as their capability is constantly improving. Right now the main weakness for many is inability to download basemaps with topo data for entire states. Seems like they only allow you to download tiles when you have service. But if you forget to do that, all you have is a line on a pretty much blank map.


Shoot, I am still using the Oregon 450. I bought my first one so long ago I don't even remember. Might have been more than 20yrs by now for all I can remember. I lost my original one on a ride many years ago, and replaced it with the 450t. I loaded an extra trails map onto it that covers maybe 3/4 of the country and I simply don't have to worry about it.

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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

My take:

Topo Fusion. I only use (used) this for reducing tracks and downloading tracks to an older Garmin. Like others said it is not fast enough to download map tiles.

Gaia: I got the lifetime $20 deal and for the most part it is awesome. When at home I can download all the maps I need along a track. Of course maps will display in the field as long as you have cell service or wifi.

Garmin gps units: Their big advantage is their robustness on the bars if you want to follow a track on the go. Their menus suck and their software sucks.

Smartphones: This is the future. Unfortunately my Sony Experia Z3 overheats on the bars when in direct sunlight so I can't use it on the bars like can a garmin.
Any recommendations for a bombproof smartphone that will handle the rigors of bar mounting??

Ride with gps. Great computer app for downloading tracks and planning routes.

Strava: I use this to record rides with and from my laptop I can download a gpx file of my route and then put it on ridewithgps.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

richwolf said:


> Smartphones: This is the future. Unfortunately my Sony Experia Z3 overheats on the bars when in direct sunlight so I can't use it on the bars like can a garmin.
> Any recommendations for a bombproof smartphone that will handle the rigors of bar mounting??


No. For one, phones are simply too damn big anymore for this. Smartwatches are a marginally better solution. Definitely from a size persepctive, but they have other significant limitations. No, if you want to use a phone in the backcountry reliably, putting it on the bars is just not a good idea.

If you want to put something on the bars, you're far better off with a dedicated device designed specifically for that purpose.

I really don't understand the problem people have with the menus on a Garmin device. What's the problem? Stuff is organized just fine on them. The menus work. Do you not like it because it's not a smartphone user interface that would require a fancier screen, more powerful processor, more memory, and more battery power? Maybe you should try a Wahoo that lets you run through setup on your smartphone, but lets the device handle stuff on the bars. As for me, I'd ditch computers on my bike altogether and rely solely on a paper map before I'd rely 100% on a phone for all of my navigation needs.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Harold said:


> No. For one, phones are simply too damn big anymore for this.


I found an old iPhone 5 for exactly this reason.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mikesee said:


> I found an old iPhone 5 for exactly this reason.


can't say I've ever seen it mounted on your bars in any of your posts, though.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Harold said:


> can't say I've ever seen it mounted on your bars in any of your posts, though.


I don't like anything mounted on my bars, other than a (small) soft bag. On multi days I keep it in the gas tank, for day trips it's in a hip pocket.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Harold said:


> No. For one, phones are simply too damn big anymore for this. Smartwatches are a marginally better solution. Definitely from a size persepctive, but they have other significant limitations. No, if you want to use a phone in the backcountry reliably, putting it on the bars is just not a good idea.
> 
> If you want to put something on the bars, you're far better off with a dedicated device designed specifically for that purpose.
> 
> I really don't understand the problem people have with the menus on a Garmin device. What's the problem? Stuff is organized just fine on them. The menus work. Do you not like it because it's not a smartphone user interface that would require a fancier screen, more powerful processor, more memory, and more battery power? Maybe you should try a Wahoo that lets you run through setup on your smartphone, but lets the device handle stuff on the bars. As for me, I'd ditch computers on my bike altogether and rely solely on a paper map before I'd rely 100% on a phone for all of my navigation needs.


I never thought the menus were well laid out but hey that's just me! For the price of a new garmin I can get a pretty nice smartphone which is a lot more useful for me. Photos, music player, web browser, mapping and hey even a phone. Why have two devices when one will do?

I like a handlebar mount so if I am trying to follow a track with a lot of turns I find it saves a lot of time. No stopping and pulling out a map or phone. Also if you are listening to music it is easy to change tunes or volume.

With all the crap that people put on their bike and bars for bikepacking I don't think a phone is that intrusive and it doesn't have to remain on the bike.

But I am still on a search for a new durable waterproof shockproof smartphone so if anyone has any ideas let me know. Something like this?? https://www.amazon.com/PoptelUSA-Wa...D=51w6HBdDH5L&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=detail


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

After researching I think I am going to get the poptel phone. For $290 it should be a nice replacement for my Sony and a lot more rugged to boot. Supposed to handle heat up to around 122 degrees submersion to over 6 feet for 30 minutes and a removable SD card.

Not much more than a garmin unit.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

These are mil-spec, android, and $200. Available from most verizon and verizon based prepays. Let you run bc nav pro. I have one, on pageplus/verizon, very solid phone. Takes a micro sd card so you can preload map tiles and run without a cel signal.

https://www.projectfreedom.com/Devices/


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## 6thElement (Jul 17, 2006)

I never got on with Basecamp when it was released. With my Garmin 800 I still happily use Mapsource for storing my routes/tracks and Garmin Training Center for storing my history. Topofusion is mainly used to simplify the number of trackpoints on a gpx track before uploading to my Garmin.

The bicycle routable maps from Free worldwide Garmin maps from OpenStreetMap are a good substitute for many of the other map sources out there nowadays apart from if you need topo.


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## c_kyle (Sep 2, 2005)

So, I use a few different tools to build routes. Basecamp and RWGPS mostly. RWGPS is just much faster to build a route that follows established roads. So, I'll build segments that follow roads in RWGPS and export them. Then, pull them into Basecamp. In Basecamp, I'll draw segments based on topo, aerial views or trials, or previous scout rides, etc. Next, is to join the various segments together, add waypoints and pois, then move it over to the Garmin.

Also, I usually load the route into the Gaia app on my phone. That's what I use as a backup GPS.


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## injected59 (Aug 14, 2016)

mikesee said:


> I've been using GAIA GPS on a phone for ~5 years or so, for riding, bikepacking, backpacking, and boating.
> 
> I don't miss the frustrations and inadequacies of standalone GPS one bit.


What do you do for longer trips like 2-3 days? Do you bring a few external battery packs? Also, have you had a problem with getting service?


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

I never got along with basecamp, and I tried it a bunch. I use RWGPS with OSM maps. Very easy to lay out routes, modify/edit routes, and switch back and forth between following routable roads/trails and drawing segments.


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## Bikehopper (Apr 8, 2018)

6thElement said:


> I never got on with Basecamp when it was released. With my Garmin 800 I still happily use Mapsource for storing my routes/tracks and Garmin Training Center for storing my history. Topofusion is mainly used to simplify the number of trackpoints on a gpx track before uploading to my Garmin.
> 
> The bicycle routable maps from Free worldwide Garmin maps from OpenStreetMap are a good substitute for many of the other map sources out there nowadays apart from if you need topo.


This is a great resource. There are a few great YouTube's on how to use this.


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## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

What devices are you guys using the RWGPS app on? Your everyday phone?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Chicane32 said:


> What devices are you guys using the RWGPS app on? Your everyday phone?


I don't use the app. Website only.

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