# A Chance to Write the Bible



## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

I just signed a book deal with Velo Press for an account of my bicycle-related activities between 1970 and 1990. They expect a manuscript to be delivered in late spring. The editor threw the word "definitive" around after the deal was done. I had earlier rejected (through my agent, bless his heart) a deal from a different publisher that I found a little insulting.

I figure I have one chance to tell the story of a pretty good bike adventure, and I hope they let me tell it as completely as I want to. Title is "Fat Tire Flyer." Where have I heard that? I'm not going to dignify the the "who did what" issues. I can tell you what I did and what I saw, in excruciating detail.

I'm not the only participant in all these events, but I can't see any of the others defining that period the way I can. I have the luxury of having documented just about everything I did, through my magazine and my contributions to other publications, and by collecting everything written about us by others. I have every scrap of paper the experience generated, with one major exception. When my business relationship with Gary ended I had to leave behind the original files of the MountainBikes company, which would have been a gold mine but have long been dispersed and lost.

Joe Breeze has his own files and could write a pretty good book about his bike adventures, but he probably won't. His would be an amazing autobiography, because Joe had incredible bike experiences before I met him that I have heard about and the rest of the world hasn't. He's a good writer, but he's not the sort who can sit down and churn out the words the way I can. I use Joe as my fact-checker and consultant in all technical matters, and you can't do any better than that. He is a major collaborator. Tom Ritchey and Gary Fisher have good stories also, but they will probably need editorial help to get them out. Hard to see those two glued to a keyboard for six weeks. 

It's up to me to do it right, because I don't see a lot of other first person accounts on the horizon. I'll try to live up to the opportunity.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

I'm looking forward to reading it.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

perfect thread title


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Dah! I thought you meant Chris Chance.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Very cool. Can't wait to see it. I think more of this needs to be done in the next 10 years.


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## Groundoggy (Nov 27, 2011)

Wow! Good luck! No easy undertaking writing a book.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Will it be the finished version of the partial history you shared a while back? That was pretty interesting.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Great news!! Can I put in an order for an autographed copy?


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## mrjustin007 (Jul 22, 2008)

laffeaux said:


> Great news!! Can I put in an order for an autographed copy?


me too!


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

Sounds like an excellent opportunity, and am certain it'll be a great read.
Best of luck to keep that keyboard cranking.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

I love Joe. Riding with him is pretty much one of the highlights of my life. I was so giddy to have met him and was stunned by what a nice and humble a man he is. I'm glad he's going to have a hand in this....Bible.

Good luck, CK!


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2013)

GOB, I think you need a bike built by JB, or designed by him


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

I tried. Didn't have the pocketbook. :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2013)

girlonbike said:


> I tried. Didn't have the pocketbook. :lol:


How bout the one designed by JB, ya you know what I'm talking about


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

shawnw said:


> How bout the one designed by JB, ya you know what I'm talking about


no.


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

Sounds like this could be a cool book if you can get contributions and input from a bunch of the pioneers.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

muddybuddy said:


> Sounds like this could be a cool book if you can get contributions and input from a bunch of the pioneers.


Who did you have in mind?


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Repack Rider said:


> Who did you have in mind?


You should talk to that guy that helped Gary Fisher get the whole thing started. ... assuming that he's still around.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Awesome! As someone who types a fair bit myself? Have fun with that!

Can't wait to read it


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## Howley (Nov 23, 2005)

Six weeks - wow - Go for it CK - don't hold back. Very happy for you. Of course I'll order when ready.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

I am pretty sure you can do it in 6 days.


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## Retro Dude (Jun 7, 2010)

CK- reserve a signed copy for me, my "brush with greatness" with you was at the Ross Race in 1987. Do you recall that race? It rained the whole weekend & I still remember your comment about the people wearing garbage bags - "Mexican Gortex" was what you called it. My wife & I still talk about that.

Thanks for all you have done, now is your time to shine.


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

I would love a signed copy. I hope there are lots of pictures especially of some of the original Fat tire Flyers and race posters.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

muddybuddy said:


> Sounds like this could be a cool book if you can get contributions and input from a bunch of the pioneers.


I just got a response to my email to Tom Ritchey about this. He's in South Africa, but wants to talk about it when he returns in a couple of weeks. I'm also talking to Dave Garoutte about the TrailMaster. Anybody else? Oh, Gary, but we were joined at the hip for so long that his activities are not a mystery to me.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

A graphic novel would be cool.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

It would be fantastic to have page copies of the Fat Tire Flyer in the appendix.


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## PiasRoller (Sep 7, 2012)

Congratulations on your deal! Your FTF mag was always an exciting read. i still love them and if any of the early ones come up some how i would love to have my own collection. I agree you are a perfect person to take on this task and you will get it right because you were actually there and know the players. The years have blended memories and I'm sure the task will not be easy especially since you only have several weeks. As I read though the posts here it seems to me that time is of the essence and I thought of a few names that could help your assignment, but I'm sure you may already have them on your list.

Of course you will be in touch with the Koski's (I will PM you DK's #... I did ask him if it was OK and he said that you can call him). 
I would also think you would consider Chris Paretich a source. (a good title for him would be "Third generation Larkspur Canyon Gang, MTB-Rider/Historian/Machinist" ) and also James McClean of the "Santa Barbara Scene" (One of the first MTB reps of many different brands, one of which I refuse to mention. hmmm, Could he have been a spy? He was up here the whole time, hanging out at the Cove...Just kidding JM.) He has binders full of articles from early on and knows the story from experience. 
With that said...the other side of the the hill (Mill Valley side) had a bunch of riders also that don't really get mentioned. What they were doing, instead of Repack, was hitching up to Pantoll from the 2 am club by way of people driving to Stinson and then Bombing Lone Tree Fire Road (the road now restored to native hillside, paralleled the Dipsea trail contours for some length) to the beach just to immediately turn around and hitch back to Mill Valley and again to the beach getting several runs a day.

There are plenty of guys out there and stories to tell...Off the top of my head...I'm getting stuck on Mark's and M's for some reason....
Mark at Paragon, Mark at WTB, Mark of Velo Tam, Mark Witz, Matt Hebdog...... and on through the bet. 
You have your work cut out for you. 
Keep it Roll'in Mr. Kelly.
Sorry for the long windedness.
Thank you.
Here is a nice little picture from last Saturday's Derby/Bomb.


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## zygote2k (Jun 5, 2011)

You gonna use Dink Bridger or John Castellano?


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

fos'l said:


> It would be fantastic to have page copies of the Fat Tire Flyer in the appendix.


I'm going through everything in my massive file cabinets as I work on the MS. Fortunately I wrote about much of what I was doing when I was doing it. The stories I wrote at the time are better than trying to dredge up a 30-year old experience. Many of the stories that ran in the FTF will be in the appendix, as well as work I did for the mainstream magazines.

Regarding the Koskis, I said it on this site and it will appear in print that the Trailmaster was a better design than the Ritchey MountainBike, but no one at the time could match the number of bikes MountainBikes got out the door.

In the process of composing this work, I have contacted a number of people active at the time, and I will include their thoughts when appropriate. However I am most comfortable describing events I took part in than commenting on the motives and activities of others.


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## crossracer (Jun 27, 2004)

As a long time rider I would love to hear about how things developed. Simple facts are fine, but it's the stories behind the facts that are what we all want. Lol IMHO. 

Good luck, do your absolute best, then set it down and be satisfied. 

Bill


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

I kind of skimmed the thread so I may have missed it but what will you do for photos? Do you only plan on using only older pics? It would be cool to add some photos from the recent SFO exhibit if they will let you.


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## syklystt (Mar 31, 2010)

wow...this is so cool...I'd like a signed copy also....and an audio book with you reading it...gotta be told with and older, wiser voice, and one thats been there so the feeling can come out.
good luck!


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## oldskoolwrench (Jul 12, 2012)

CK,

I'm in for a signed copy. And, if there is an audiobook, you HAVE to narrate it!

Alan


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

stan lee said:


> I kind of skimmed the thread so I may have missed it but what will you do for photos? Do you only plan on using only older pics? It would be cool to add some photos from the recent SFO exhibit if they will let you.


There are a lot of graphics available. All the original Repack race posters, Joe's drawing for the first Breezer, and lots of Wende's and my own photos. I don't plan to add any from the SFO exhibit.


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## den haag (Feb 18, 2009)

can i be you in the movie?


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

den haag said:


> can i be you in the movie?


Tommy Chong has the part.


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## den haag (Feb 18, 2009)

i couldn't top that. and i got a hernia the last time i moved a grand piano, anyway! cheers


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

den haag said:


> i couldn't top that. and i got a hernia the last time i moved a grand piano, anyway! cheers


haha


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## Oldfatbaldguy (Nov 4, 2010)

Late spring?
When would the book be out? 
I don't know book timelines, but assume it takes a while.

What would it take to get you to Mn for a book signing in, say Sept 2014?


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Oldfatbaldguy said:


> What would it take to get you to Mn for a book signing in, say Sept 2014?


I'm sure the publisher has a publicity tour in mind, but my agent keeps reminding me that nothing will happen until I deliver the manuscript.


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## syklystt (Mar 31, 2010)

ha...so you got alot of work to do, sounds like alot of it is going through reams of old memories and photograhps of a time we all (that lurk here) definately daydream about....so whos gonna help with that?...what a job...VRC docs from the begining....i think it sounds to me like a joyous adventure for you, and we all get to reap the rewards of this memoir tapping...and you get some funding...everybody wins.....cannot wait.....

are you going to keep us informed as time goes on so we arent pacing too much?
Thanks!


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## goto11 (Jun 12, 2009)

Repack Rider: My dad was your dentist and my parents still own the Ritcheys they bought from you and Gary at the Center Avenue shop. It's funny that my family has been telling everyone the "true history" of mountain biking since the late 80's after S-word stole the glory (those in the know still give credit where credit is due). My younger brother even interviewed you in sixth grade for a report on mountain biking. I would love to find that old report of his and pass it on to you for the archives. I'm sure you have been interviewed many times, but every piece of documentation is a unique window into that period in time "we who lurk here" are so nostalgic about. Please put me down for a few signed copies of the book. I'm looking forward to its publication. 

You may remember a nice blacked-out Intense FS rig in the garage of someone who you were helping to move a year or two back. He's my neighbor and I helped get him into the sport and build his bike. After you left, he called me and said, "you'll never guess who helped move my piano!" Needless to say, it was no guess. I knew it was you. Hope to see you around town. 

-Kevin (Dr. Smith's son)


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## lewisfoto (Nov 12, 2013)

girlonbike said:


> A graphic novel would be cool.


That is an interesting idea...


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## proto2000 (Jan 27, 2007)

I was young when BMX was king and MTB was no where to be found, just want to know if you have any ties there. Theres talk of some team from the area that whipped butt in Marin then but I never knew them although a guy named Jim was mentioned that I went to high school with but unsure if it's the Jim from the famous one time race of the boys from Cupertino. I was in the mix in the early/mid 70's in Cupertino with the boys from the area and raced with Dan O, Fast Fred, Nate J and the rest. If you did any BMX are you going to include that in the book and leave a note to whom they may be? I'm not leaving last names because I don't know what has happened to them.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

I never rode BMX and there is none in the book. I delivered the MS in June, collected my advance against royalties, and now I am waiting for a host of other issues to be dealt with before the big payday.

The editor is coming out in a couple of weeks to meet with me, Joe Breeze and Wende Cragg to select images. After that there is artwork and layout, discussions on what form the product will take, price point, publicity, and a bunch of other stuff I never thought about.

Velo-Press promised me a booth to sign copies for the next trade show, which is depressingly far off.


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## rismtb (Dec 11, 2012)

Thanks for being the "keeper of the history key". Its hard for me to wrap my head around the amount of time you have volunteered to make **** happen. Not only from the beginning 30+ yrs ago but all thru your life including this forum to pass the news or give advice on some thing new. i know from experience that most riders are "apathetic" when asked to do something for nothing or just for the good of the sport. It's always been like that I don't expect it to change. This book you should make your own because the personal experience stories are the most intriguing. Maybe on the inside cover a nice pic of the pope JFS. Anyway I won't take you away from your task at hand , can't wait to buy,read,hear,ride,party,give thanks to people responsible for changing the world for the better


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Repack Rider said:


> I never rode BMX and there is none in the book. I delivered the MS in June, collected my advance against royalties, and now I am waiting for a host of other issues to be dealt with before the big payday.
> 
> The editor is coming out in a couple of weeks to meet with me, Joe Breeze and Wende Cragg to select images. After that there is artwork and layout, discussions on what form the product will take, price point, publicity, and a bunch of other stuff I never thought about.
> 
> Velo-Press promised me a booth to sign copies for the next trade show, which is depressingly far off.


Hang in there. I feel for ya! Looking forward to your big payday, CK!


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Can't wait to see (and own) the final product!!


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Definitely buying one!


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## bikefat (Nov 13, 2013)

Me too! I'm also working my way through all your posts here, you're about the most interesting poster on MTBR. Not trying to kiss your butt, just thanking you for sharing your war-stories; such an asset to this community, it's so awesome that someone with your background and experience is willing to share.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Bumping this back to the top, because...

*You can pre-order at a deep discount*. The actual product is six months away, but maybe I can go platinum on release.

Might be your only chance for a first edition. [email protected] right I'll sign it.


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## Oldfatbaldguy (Nov 4, 2010)

If its out by mid September and you want to sign it at a bike club event in MN, let me know.
I thiefed a pic of you off the intertubes and mentioned you tonight.

https://www.facebook.com/CuyunaKlunker


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Done. Thanks!


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## syklystt (Mar 31, 2010)

me too..


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## mauricer (Apr 15, 2011)

Done. Great story and can't wait for the book to be published.

Greetings from Hamburg/Germany

Moritz


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Just put in my pre-order.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Kicking this one more time because my publisher has granted me a Facebook page, with the condition that I get 25 people to "like" it. If you're on FB, even if you don't like ME, try to "like" a bunch of electrons representing my publisher.

*You can do that here.*


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Done. You'll get way more than 25 likes pretty easy I'd say.


Edit: 70 likes in 2 hours!


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

I just got the galley proofs, which is not yet the final work but a copy for my comments and changes.

Wow.

It's better than I could have hoped for. It's going to ride the charts for sure, and might even make me more money than I lost with a bike company and a magazine. You guys won't be able to put it down, you'll keep turning pages back to check out the graphics, which are off the charts. I have the goods, and I used them.

P.S. As part of the research project, i scanned the first article ever to appear on the new bikes into a .pdf. It's the Spring 1978 issue of Co-Evolution Quarterly. You can see it here:

http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/ckimages/Co_Evo_1978.pdf


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Right on Charlie. I dig your enthusiasm!


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## syklystt (Mar 31, 2010)

thanks....I came looking for something to read with my dinner...great read.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

The first availability of my book will be at Interbike. I will be signing the first copies to be circulated at the Breezer booth. Joe Breeze and Gary Fisher have agreed to take part. If you will be at the bike show, that will probably be your best chance to get all three of us to sign. Haven't asked Tom Ritchey yet, maybe he'll join us.

Here's the press release. I don't write this stuff, I have people for that: Meet Mountain Biking Legends Charlie Kelly, Joe Breeze, and Gary Fisher at Interbike! | Fat Tire Flyer


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

It's always nice to have people.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

I have people that have people for that.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Cool. I'll swing by the booth on Thursday.


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## sbsbiker (Dec 1, 2007)

Hey Repack, can I send someone over to grab one of your signed copies? I'm an industry outsider and not coming to Interbike but would love a signed copy. I will see if some beer can encourage one of my Moots employed friends to secure this scripture for me.


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

I have people, 3 of them to be exact. Some people would insist I call them "my kids" but I prefer "my people".


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

When I write a press release, it's a lot more entertaining.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

sbsbiker said:


> Hey Repack, can I send someone over to grab one of your signed copies? I'm an industry outsider and not coming to Interbike but would love a signed copy. I will see if some beer can encourage one of my Moots employed friends to secure this scripture for me.


I will have 200 copies. I don't want to bring any home.

If your friend doesn't score, we can do something by mail.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

:d >>>>>>


chefmiguel said:


> i have people, 3 of them to be exact. Some people would insist i call them "my kids" but i prefer "my people".


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

I prepayed for a copy, and won't be at the dog and pony show this year.

It'd make my day to have as many luminaries sign it as can be located. 

Happy to pay for postage if you can make that happen CK!

Enjoy the show, and thanks for all you guys did!


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## bikefat (Nov 13, 2013)

Repack Rider said:


> When I write a press release, it's a lot more entertaining.


 Can't wait to get my copy. Enjoyed reflecting on 1992 and the Dead, reading that. Vegas and Big Mac shows were totally awesome that year, holy ****. My best rock 'n' roll war story is meeting the band backstage after the show at Mile High, 1990 maybe? My boss used to take guitar lessons from Jerry (60's). But his wife put her foot down on guitar vs. fish, so Ira never played with the Dead on stage, only rehearsals and such (I'm relating an esoteric bit of GDF history, here).

Hope & Ira are GDF all the way, started both Exotic Aquatics and Reef Encounters -- which last I looked, are both still going concerns to this day. Ira's my inspiration, both on guitar and as an entrepreneur. Their kid was an offensive lineman for the Steelers for 10 years, amazing folks, like so many others I met on that scene BITD although it helped to have introductions as I was just a kid. 

If there's one vintage MTB I'd like to own above all others, it's the Weir bike. So many memories from my deadhead years! What better way to memorialize that?


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

I saw the book for the first time four days ago at the Interbike trade show.

Wow.

I wrote the words and collected the images, but the rest was in the hands of Velopress. They delivered in spades. This is the most beautiful job of layout and printing I could have dreamed of. Every one of you will own this and love it.

We had about 160 copies to sell and I was cautioned not to expect them all to be sold.

Please. These are my people. Watch this.

I rounded up Gary Fisher, Tom Ritchey and Joe Breeze, and the four of us sat at a table for two hours and signed every copy in the building. When the books ran out there were still dozens of bitterly disappointed people left int he cold, because the opportunity to collect those four signatures on a first edition will not come again.

The photo of the four of us ran on the cover of the daily show publication the next morning. No caption. If you don't know these people, you wouldn't care anyway.

Icing on the cake was the opportunity to hang out for hours and hours with Chris Chance.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Repack Rider said:


> I rounded up Gary Fisher, Tom Ritchey and Joe Breeze, and the four of us sat at a table for two hours and signed every copy in the building. When the books ran out there were still dozens of bitterly disappointed people left int he cold, because the opportunity to collect those four signatures on a first edition will not come again.


That's pretty cool to have the 4 signatures. Certainly a unique opportunity. Thanks for that!


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Just pre ordered it at the local book store.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Very nice! The shot of you guys all signing at the table was great.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

Hope the book is selling well in pre-order. I just got mine in at amazon. Thanks for the link.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Very nice! The shot of you guys all signing at the table was great.


Here's the photo from the show daily. This is beyond classic. Unlikely I could get all these guys together for a photo again.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

All smiling, even Tom. Nice.

Buzz was the books sold like hotcakes! Big crowds and long lines to get their hands on them. Happy to hear that CK!


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> All smiling, even Tom. Nice.
> 
> Buzz was the books sold like hotcakes! Big crowds and long lines to get their hands on them. Happy to hear that CK!


I knew Gary and Joe would join me, and I really wanted Tom also. I went by his booth and asked him, and he said, leave him a copy of the book, see if it's something he wants to sign his name to.

Didn't talk to him again to find out until I sat down to start signing, and Tom sat down with me.

Tom hates that kind of stuff and he doesn't have to do it for anyone. I'm pretty sure nobody else on the planet could have got him to do that. Apparently he approves of my work.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Repack Rider said:


> I knew Gary and Joe would join me, and I really wanted Tom also. I went by his booth and asked him, and he said, leave him a copy of the book, see if it's something he wants to sign his name to.
> 
> Didn't talk to him again to find out until I sat down to start signing, and Tom sat down with me.
> 
> Tom hates that kind of stuff and he doesn't have to do it for anyone. I'm pretty sure nobody else on the planet could have got him to do that. Apparently he approves of my work.


The subject is compelling perhaps? I'm very glad you asked Tom. Some regulars here got a copy with all of your signatures and I'm jealous for sure. Congrats, CK!


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## giantbikeboy (Dec 3, 2004)

*CK's book*

Your Amazon.com order of "Fat Tire Flyer: Repack and the Birth of Mountain Biking" has shipped!‏

woo hoo!!!


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

I don't normally lurk in this section but i'm glad i did. Just ordered a copy!


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## syklystt (Mar 31, 2010)

giantbikeboy said:


> Your Amazon.com order of "Fat Tire Flyer: Repack and the Birth of Mountain Biking" has shipped!‏
> 
> woo hoo!!!


thanks...I just checked...mine is on it's way too.


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## gravitylover (Sep 1, 2009)

Charlie, I saw that show daily pic and almost fell out of my chair! Good work getting everybody together. Of course, first time in fifteen years I'm not at I'bike and you get this to happen :madman: Congrats on the book. Now get out and go for a ride :thumbsup:


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## Classic MTB (Aug 3, 2013)

It's a great read. My preorder from last March landed on my doorstep this afternoon, and I've been reading in it most of the time since. It has the ring of truth. I really like the way you let the detailed account of the progression of thinking in response to necessity, utility and experience that led to the first MTB's take the reader inside the history. Nice work--really very nice work. An odd convergence--the "eccentric musician" whom you helped put together his The Ghost Opera is a friend of mine. 

Thank you for a fine bit of writing.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

My publisher has offered a .pdf of a chapter as a sample for anyone interested in seeing what it looks like. Here it is:

https://fattireflyer.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/preview_ftf.pdf

Also, I got a review. That didn't take long. Short version, he liked it. Long version, he used a lot of adjectives.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

In depth article about my bike, "Breezer #2," which was on display while I signed books at Interbike with Tom Ritchey, Gary Fisher and Joe Breeze.

IB14: Breezer #2, We Interview Joe Breeze About the Second Mountain Bike Ever Built


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## Scoutergtg (Feb 20, 2014)

Shipped
Delivery estimate: Monday, September 29, 2014 by 8pm

I pre-ordered this right after I read Repack's first post. I'm very excited!


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## THE ARS (Sep 14, 2011)

My Christmas present.

This looks awesome, Charlie, thank you.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Repack Rider said:


> In depth article about my bike, "Breezer #2," which was on display while I signed books at Interbike with Tom Ritchey, Gary Fisher and Joe Breeze.
> 
> IB14: Breezer #2, We Interview Joe Breeze About the Second Mountain Bike Ever Built


Second Breezer...finished?

By Joe's notes, looks like your Breezer is #6.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Second Breezer...finished?
> 
> By Joe's notes, looks like your Breezer is #6.


I own Breezer #2. It has that designation for a reason, and the reason is that it was the first one to be completed after Joe's, which is called Breezer #1.

"Breezer #6" is Wende Cragg's, the only one made smaller than the others.

If you are trying to make a point here, what might it be?


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## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

I think Rumpfy mis-read Joe's scanned notes there. That page shows CK's as #7 (not #6) -- and does show Wende's as #6 -- matching apparently this alternate numbering method in which CK's is #2.

So CK: Using this apparently more appropriate and official numbering scheme in which Joe's blue-painted bike is #1 and yours is #2... What number are are Fritz Maytag's and Otis Guy's bikes?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Repack Rider said:


> If you are trying to make a point here, what might it be?


Just a question for my own edification.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

halaburt said:


> I think Rumpfy mis-read Joe's scanned notes there. That page shows CK's as #7 (not #6) -- and does show Wende's as #6 -- matching apparently this alternate numbering method in which CK's is #2.
> 
> So CK: Using this apparently more appropriate and official numbering scheme in which Joe's blue-painted bike is #1 and yours is #2... What number are are Fritz Maytag's and Otis Guy's bikes?


I don't know, and I don't pay any attention to those bikes. If Joe Breeze and I do not collectively have enough authority to call my bike "Breezer #2," whose "authority" would be acceptable to this forum?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

halaburt said:


> I think Rumpfy mis-read Joe's scanned notes there. That page shows CK's as #7 (not #6) -- and does show Wende's as #6 -- matching apparently this alternate numbering method in which CK's is #2.
> 
> So CK: Using this apparently more appropriate and official numbering scheme in which Joe's blue-painted bike is #1 and yours is #2... What number are are Fritz Maytag's and Otis Guy's bikes?


Ah, now I'm seeing it. So that would make Joe's #0 (or Prototype or whatever we want to call it), Fritz #1, Otis #2...

Ya, sorry CK, how are you getting #2 outta that?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Pass the popcorn..


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## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

Fingers in the ears. La La La La La


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Ah, now I'm seeing it. So that would make Joe's #0 (or Prototype or whatever we want to call it), Fritz #1, Otis #2...
> 
> Ya, sorry CK, how are you getting #2 outta that?


I trust Joe Breeze on this more than I trust you, and he calls my bike "Breezer #2." Would you like to take that up with Joe?


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## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

I think everyone agrees that these 10 bikes -- Joe's blue-painted one now at the Smithsonian and the 9 detailed on that scanned page that Rumpfy posted are incredibly important pieces of MTB history.

It's because they are important that I'm curious about why the numbers by which they're (apparently) now referred to differs from what's on that sheet and what's stamped on the bikes themselves. If there is some better, more definitive and accurate number for each of these 10, it would be nice to get that recorded for posterity.

I can understand why CK might only care about the number of HIS bike, but for those of us who will never own one, it's all we can do to study and care about details like this. Hence my question.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

The number stamped on my bike has nothing to do with the sequence of deliveries. You don't need a three digit number to keep track of nine items.

Apparently some are reading more into Joe's old shop notes than what is really in there. The bikes were not delivered in that order. Questioning the name of my bike strikes me as a suggestion that Joe and I are not somehow being "truthful" in referring to the bike as #2. 

My bike is #2 because it was the second to be ridden. That should not be a difficult concept to communicate, but this is my fourth or fifth attempt.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

Rumpfy, we're both computer guys and we start counting at zero, so then JB's Breezer is #0, and Charles Kelly's is either #1 or #6. If you really want to go techie, let's go binary, so Kelly's is either #1 or #110.

So, given with the most recent post, I'm gathering it has number 7 (base 10) stamped on it, seems kind of hard to argue the number


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Repack Rider said:


> I trust Joe Breeze on this more than I trust you, and he calls my bike "Breezer #2." Would you like to take that up with Joe?


Not sure I need to 'take it up' with Joe...but I will ask him like a normal person.

Trust? My question was based on a piece of paper that Joe hand wrote. I'm not even saying I don't believe you. Halaburt and I are just asking how your bike was designated as the second one.
Feels like you're being defensive, you don't need to be.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Repack Rider said:


> My bike is #2 because it was the second to be ridden.


Kinda confusing, but ok. Thats all we were lookin' for.

So if Otis had rolled by Joe's place 30 minutes earlier than you and threw a leg over his bike first, his would have been #2 and yours #3?


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

if there are 10 sequentially numbered bikes, it does seem kinda odd to refer to the one stamped #7, as #2.

maybe "first Breezer of 10 to be delivered to someone other than Joe" doesn't quite have the same ring to it


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)




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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Were all 9 of these frames finished at the same time? If not, who's to assume that the list is in build order? Maybe it's in the order that down payments were made?

I have my copy of the book but have not read it yet, so maybe it's covered there, but how long of a period was there between bike #2 and #10? Several days, hours, months?


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

It sounds to me like Charlie's bike was the 1st to be built up and delivered to a customer and not necessarily the 1st manufactured or the 1st in the build sequence. Edit: besides Joe's bike of course.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Also curious Charlie. Tell us about that first ride. Eye opening?


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## SMRTIN (Dec 17, 2012)

LOL, now we know why Bradbury didn't serialize his bikes... jeezus


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Let's split the difference.. you say #2, the list says #7. Make it a #5. Deal?


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## rismtb (Dec 11, 2012)

I just received my 5 holy bibles. CK FANTASTIC!!!!!!!! I was a journeymen lithographer for 30 yrs and that book is beautifully printed. Can't wait to read. Unreal effort you deserve to go to the Caribbean for a month. thank you thank you.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

The discrepancy between the serial # and delivery # is one of those neat historical tid-bits that you so often offer everyone here.

I don't get why you wouldn't just say "sure, the serial number is #___ but I took delivery of the second bike Joe Breeze actually completed" instead of doubling down calling it #2 and insisting that what is inscribed on the bike itself (and the documentation up thread) doesn't matter.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

yo-Nate-y said:


> The discrepancy between the serial # and delivery # is one of those neat historical tid-bits that you so often offer everyone here.
> 
> I don't get why you wouldn't just say "sure, the serial number is #___ but I took delivery of the second bike Joe Breeze actually completed" instead of doubling down calling it #2 and insisting that what is inscribed on the bike itself (and the documentation up thread) doesn't matter.


I hope some day someone tells you you are wrong about important events in your life that they only know about from the Internet. I was there. You were not. Somehow a scrap of paper has become more important than the thoughts of the guy who wrote that scrap of paper. If Joe Breeze says I own Breezer #2, and he has for over 35 years, are you calling him a liar?

The building of my bike was one of the most important events in both Joe's and my life. It took me a year and a half to talk him into building it, and then another eight months for the delivery. I can assure everyone here that I paid close attention to the process.

There was no doubt in my mind, in Joe's mind, or in the minds of any of the eight people who got in line after I convinced Joe to go ahead, who was getting the first bike to roll out. I made it happen, and I was the leader of the klunker scene. No one was getting one of these bikes before I did.

No one.

Joe completed nine frames before taking the next step, sending them out to be nickel plated. Obviously they all came back at the same time, so they were all even at this point as far as sequence is concerned. Joe selected one of the nine for me, and he picked the one that was special.

Seven of the original Breezers are identical. Three are unique. Those three are Joe's, Wende's and mine. Joe's is painted and has a unique fork. Wende's is a smaller frame than the others. Mine is the only one of the nine with a butted tube. The top tube is a Columbus downtube, and that was why Joe selected that one to be mine.

When the frames had been plated, the bikes were still not complete. Everything had arrived except the hubs. Joe had ordered a pile of Phil hubs, but he wanted bolt-ons with allen-keys, and the special order was taking a while to arrive. I didn't wait. I took my frame, sans wheels, went to Sunshine Bike Works and purchased for $150 a pair of Durham Bullseye hubs, went home and built my wheels, and had my bike on the road weeks before any of the others was ready.

The building of this bike changed two lives profoundly, and led eventually to the megalith we now call mountain biking. I bristle at any suggestion from those who did not take part, that both Joe Breeze and I do not know what we are talking about in reference to these events. There is a reason I had Joe do the fact-checking on my book. He is incapable of telling an untruth, but people here seem to be suggesting that he is.


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

Well said Repack Rider. I hope people can just leave it at that.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

DoubleCentury said:


> Well said Repack Rider. I hope people can just leave it at that.


hahaha. you're too much.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Repack Rider said:


> I was there. You were not.


If I had a dollar for every time I've read that.



Repack Rider said:


> I made it happen, and I was the leader of the klunker scene.


**groan**



Repack Rider said:


> I bristle at any suggestion from those who did not take part, that both Joe Breeze and I do not know what we are talking about in reference to these events.


That bristling comes though loud and clear in every one of your defensive, irritated, or condescending posts. We give you a lot of grief Charlie, but no one has ever called you (and definitely not Joe) a liar or suggested you didn't know what you were talking about.

As you so often like to remind us, we were not there....so our information is based on what we see, hear, or read. With no other information to go on, why is it insulting to you for us to assume that your bike is #7 based on Joe's hand written notes and ask why you refer to your bike as #2?

Now I know why you and Joe refer to your bike as #2. I guess thank you for making getting to that answer more exciting?


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

girlonbike said:


> hahaha. you're too much.


Well, some of it anyway.


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

I know its semantics, but if you refered to it as "the second Breezer," which is apparently correct, rather that refering to it as "#2" which implies the serial number, what ever it actually my be, you would be more clear and accurate.

Just as an aside. When people collect things with serial numbers stamped on them, and discuss said collectible items. Cars, Boats, Bikes... For clarity, they are most often refered to by their stamped on serial number.


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## Classic MTB (Aug 3, 2013)

Rumpfy said:


> If I had a dollar for every time I've read that.
> 
> **groan**
> 
> ...


I can't believe these things are actually being said!

You said you wanted to be edified; you've been edified. Try taking a ride on a mountain bike and thinking about why it exists.

Happily what has come out of this is an interesting footnote to add to the narrative of the Ur mountain bike, so that's to the good.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Well this place has definitely improved since I was last in here.

Hey Charlie, is your book based on the draft that was on your website a couple or more years back? I remember you posting a link to it at one point which led me to it.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

This thread is dangerously close to being binned so everybody pipe down....not even winter yet.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

I like how Otis wanted the slacker head angle and lower BB for railing the turns.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I like how Otis wanted the slacker head angle and lower BB for railing the turns.


One of the CK stories I rather enjoyed was how an errant dog cost Otis the #1 all time run down Repack.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> One of the CK stories I rather enjoyed was how an errant dog cost Otis the #1 all time run down Repack.


Yeah, saw that somewhere. Kind of a bummer but a cool story. I wonder if that would have changed the course of mtb history. Certainly would have been one less claim by GF.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

I'm ready for winter.


girlonbike said:


> This thread is dangerously close to being binned so everybody pipe down....not even winter yet.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Repack Rider said:


> >snip<


try reading for comprehension instead of looking for another chance to tell us all how much of a big deal you think you are


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## Classic MTB (Aug 3, 2013)

There may be a lot in the background I'm not aware of, but this is really saddening.

I say, let a guy have his fifteen minutes.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Classic MTB said:


> There may be a lot in the background I'm not aware of


There is. We're admittedly a grumpy bunch, but no one gets jumped on unless they've garnered a reason for it.


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## Classic MTB (Aug 3, 2013)

All right.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

So don't give us a reason to jump you ClassicMTB.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Classic MTB said:


> There may be a lot in the background I'm not aware of, but this is really saddening.
> 
> I say, let a guy have his fifteen minutes.


 according to the serial number, it should be 12 minutes.


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## Classic MTB (Aug 3, 2013)

jeff said:


> So don't give us a reason to jump you ClassicMTB.


My helmet's on just in case.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Hmmmm. If only we knew somebody with a handy dandy stopwatch for ck's fifteen minutes?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

girlonbike said:


> Hmmmm. If only we knew somebody with a handy dandy stopwatch for ck's fifteen minutes?


 an errand dog made it 20 minutes.


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## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

girlonbike said:


> Hmmmm. If only we knew somebody with a handy dandy stopwatch for ck's fifteen minutes?


Ha! Zing!


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Brilliant!


colker1 said:


> an errand dog made it 20 minutes.


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## syklystt (Mar 31, 2010)

WOW, now this is a sad mockery of this thread. I don't know the background to all of this and really don't care. Those that choose to fill this thread with hatred and foul posts deserve to be banished for good. Even a moderator has jumped in on it. Again..WOW...quite a bunch. I don't care what transpired, if you all want to bash someone, why don't you do it somewhere else. 
thanks for letting us know the real you.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

syklystt said:


> WOW, now this is a sad mockery of this thread. I don't know the background to all of this and really don't care. Those that choose to fill this thread with hatred and foul posts deserve to be banished for good. Even a moderator has jumped in on it. Again..WOW...quite a bunch. I don't care what transpired, if you all want to bash someone, why don't you do it somewhere else.
> thanks for letting us know the real you.


Agreed. I see no reason to treat anyone that contributes to the "vintage bike conversation" in this way. If someone where an obvious troll seeking to disrupt conversation I can see how someone could react so negatively. However, Charlie knows his stuff and it passing along info that only he knows. Even if you don't like him, his delivery, or his tone, there's no reason for anyone to be so negative. Lighten up and move on if you have issues, or ask questions to gain knowledge.

This thread makes me less interested in participating in this forum.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

He's a big boy, he can dish it out and he can take some back


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

laffeaux said:


> Agreed. I see no reason to treat anyone that contributes to the "vintage bike conversation" in this way. If someone where an obvious troll seeking to disrupt conversation I can see how someone could react so negatively. However, Charlie knows his stuff and it passing along info that only he knows. Even if you don't like him, his delivery, or his tone, there's no reason for anyone to be so negative. Lighten up and move on if you have issues, or ask questions to gain knowledge.
> 
> This thread makes me less interested in participating in this forum.


EL, you know I love you man...but don't be a skirt. All that was really done was we asked why are you calling it #2 and not #7. 
Instead of just telling us why, he accused us of insinuating he and Joe are liars. 
Once he told us the back story as to why (albeit the long, defensive way), none of us called bullsh!t or said we didn't believe him. 
If there's anyone that needs to lighten up around here, I think it's CK.


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## Oldfatbaldguy (Nov 4, 2010)

I'm old, but not quite as old as the 4 guys on the interbike cover.
I first rode a bike off-road in 1965. 
I was 7. 
But it wasnt on a mountain, it wasnt on a bike optimized for the off-road experience, and I didnt start anything.

THOSE GUYS DID.

And they have interesting stories to tell. I bet if we just think about the stories, we'll have less heartburn, piss each other off less, and enjoy our own stories more


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2014)

Repack Rider said:


> The number stamped on my bike has nothing to do with the sequence of deliveries. You don't need a three digit number to keep track of nine items.
> 
> Apparently some are reading more into Joe's old shop notes than what is really in there. The bikes were not delivered in that order. Questioning the name of my bike strikes me as a suggestion that Joe and I are not somehow being "truthful" in referring to the bike as #2.
> 
> My bike is #2 because it was the second to be ridden. That should not be a difficult concept to communicate, but this is my fourth or fifth attempt.


Frames are stamped their serial # when they are made. Whats unique about serial # is that they are timeless and you do not have to be there. They are not stamped after the bike is assembled and ridden around the block. Charlie, if your bike is stamped #7 then it's #7, meaning the 7th frame Joe made. With that being said #2 is a "pet" name you and Joe gave it.

Example, if a Rock Lobster frame was discovered in the attic of Paul Sadoffs prior rental home and it's stamped #3, we would all agree, even Paul, that it's his 3rd frame he ever built. It doesn't lose it's place in history, it's #3. You don't build it then ride around the block and call it #5000 because it was built and delivered.

BTW Charlie, the person who own's #2, meaning the second frame Joe built, what does he get to call his bike?

I'm not calling you a liar, nor would I ever call Joe a liar, you guy's just call your bike it's "pet" name #2.


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## rev106 (Jul 9, 2009)

I have not finished the book yet but so far it's been a great read, I've been letting the shop get more dirty to slowly absorb each page and thus leave a greasy paw print upon it. I just want to say thanks CK for the fantastic tomb!


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## Classic MTB (Aug 3, 2013)

And when you go to it perhaps you'll take along some of your favorite things, as did the ancient Pharaohs-- like CK's tome! 



rev106 said:


> I have not finished the book yet but so far it's been a great read, I've been letting the shop get more dirty to slowly absorb each page and thus leave a greasy paw print upon it. I just want to say thanks CK for the fantastic tomb!


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

shawnw said:


> if your bike is stamped #7 then it's #7, meaning the 7th frame Joe made.


I think that's the issue. Does the #7 on the frame actually mean that it was the 7th frame built. I don't think that it does. Joe built 9 frames at the same time. Who knows what order they were actually built in? (Joe might have some idea.) At some point a stamp was made on each frame to identify it. Was the stamp placed on the frame when it was just a bottom bracket? Was it stamped after all of the frames were built but before sending them off to be plated? Joe can probably tell you that. In any case, all of the first batch of frames were completed together - maybe Joe finished the ninth frame first - who knows? But they were all ready to be built into bikes when they came back from being platted.

Charlie's frame was the first of that batch to be built into a bike and ridden. Therefore it was the second Breezer, and he and Joe call it frame #2. Good enough.

Is it stamped with serial number #2? No. The number on it was used to track which frame it was - without the number Joe would likely have been unsure which frame was which when they came back from being plated. Wendy's would have been obvious, but the remaining 8 frames would have been hard to tell apart. The frame marked with a "7" had a different top tube - it's unique - which of the 8 frames that look alike is it? The "7" is the identifier that let Joe know. Does it refer to the build order? Probably not since all 9 frames were built at roughly the same time (but Joe is likely the only person that knows for sure).

Charlie has a frame that was built in the batch that included frames 2-10. His was the first of that batch built and ridden. You guys can argue over whatever you want, but to me that's the second Breezer on the planet - and I think that's why Charlie and Joe call it Breezer #2.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

So, per Shaun's question, then what should we call the Breezer that is stamped #2?


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Call the Breezer that has serial number "2" stamped on it. It also was also one of the first 10 frames that Joe built. Frames #2 - #10 are all the same age (same batch).

Maybe Charlie should call his "Breezer number two" so that people aren't confused.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

laffeaux said:


> Is it stamped with serial number #2? No. The number on it was used to track which frame it was .


that's the point of serial numbers

Bike #7


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Bontrager labeled their production frames by stamping a serial number on the dropouts. All dropouts were stamped when they were made and thrown in a box. When the builder built the frame he grabbed a pair of dropouts out of the box and used them paying no attention to the unique serial number on them. Each frame has a unique random number stamped on them - but frame #1 is no more likely to have been built first as any other random number.

Similarly Tom Ritchey built multiple frames at the same time using multiple jigs. He brazed all of the bottom bracket joints at the same time, and then all of the head tube joints, and then all of the seat tube joints, etc. In the end some number of frames were finished at the same time. Frame 232 might have been completed minutes before frame 231, or maybe minutes after. The direction that Tom happened to be working was the determining factor. And if they were painted the same color, which one was done first?

Serial number may mean build order, but they may not. For guys that build one frame start to finish that probably do. Joe built 9 frames at the same time. I don't think the serial numbers has to reflect build order. Charlie and Joe refer to "#2" as the second bike completed. People were are getting all worried about the serial number, which is pretty insignificant other than to identify the frame as being part of the first batch.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Breezer number 2 with the serial number 7. Simple.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

hollister said:


> that's the point of serial numbers
> 
> Bike #7


Call it one of the first 10 Breezers ever made. The second Breezer ever ridden. The Breezer with serial number "7." The third purposefully built mountain bike. Lots of options...

There are multiple ways to reference the same object. Instead of arguing that your way is the only way, realize that others may be using a different reference system.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

The can call it Jose for all I care.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

We aren't talking about bonty or ritchey #'s

We're talking about 9 frames built at the same time, and numbered by their maker

He stamped it 7. Why? I don't know. But he did.

It was the first delivered. The second built up and ridden.<-- the reason CK keeps wrapping "breezer #2" in air quotes

But it's #7

Pedantic, but correct.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Very pedantic and correct if you're talking about the serial number.

But if you were hanging out with Joe Breeze in 1979, he built 10 frame, and you were the first to build up one of those frames, and you rode it with your buddies (who also ordered frames but didn't have them yet), you'd likely say that you were riding Breezer #2 - regardless of what number is stamped on your bottom bracket shell. Why would Charlie and Joe refer to Charlie's bike as #7 - in 1979 they didn't care about serial numbers they cared about who had the sweetest bikes first.

35 years later people pay attention to the serial numbers and use them for reference, and are trying to tell the original guys that they need to start thinking in terms of serial numbers and not events. To those who were there Breezer number two is the second Breezer that existed (regardless of serial number).


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

This isn't hard math. It's 1-10. And the number is stamped on the dropout.

Everything else is just a cool story.


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## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

So these 9 were stamped as #1 to #9 (or, more precisely #1.xx to #9.xx). Anyone know if Joe's blue bike that preceded these 9 has a number? Logically I guess it would be #0, but perhaps it just has nothing at all or just a date or something else?


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

laffeaux said:


> ...in 1979 they didn't care about serial numbers they cared about who had the sweetest bikes first.


^ +1

Humans are such an interesting lot. When we were young our perspectives were so much different. I wonder what our impression would be as we are today if we could have seen the future from 35 years ago.

John


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

So you're saying one should have had the forsight to dremel off the serial number?


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

laffeaux said:


> Instead of arguing that your way is the only way, realize that others may be using a different reference system.


I agree.

This thread is getting a little silly, but really only got that way, as you point out, via CK's saying "nothing else matters but what I/Joe say and if you disagree you are calling us liars." I think "the second Breezer" and "Breezer #2" mean different things, and that it is a meaningful difference. Either way, the old stories are neat and only make the numbers more lively


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2014)

In a hundred years when somebody pulls CK's Breezer out of a back store room and dust it off, he'll say, "hey look, Breezer #7".
Sorry CK.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

shawnw said:


> In a hundred years when somebody pulls CK's Breezer out of a back store room and dust it off, he'll say, "hey look, Breezer #7".
> Sorry CK.


Unless someone takes the initiative to further investigate it and finds out the history behind the bike labeled "7."


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

It'll still be 7

The cool story is just an asterisk 

Not sure why that's so painful


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## Uncle Grumpy (Oct 20, 2005)

laffeaux said:


> Unless someone takes the initiative to further investigate it and finds out the history behind the bike labeled "7."


Yeah, they'll find this thread on some internet archive, get a couple of pages into it and give up. 

I think the "stamped" number (I won't call it a serial number) was simply a means for Joe to tell what frame was what while he was building them up, so he could keep track of angles and geometries that he had scratched on his sheet of paper.

It's a bit assumptive of us to think what was in his mind when he made that list and how that order numbers came about. The frame was identified as number 7 out of that first batch of bikes. It was a nascent industry (if indeed it was an industry at the time) and it could either have taken off, or been a short lived fad. Serial numbers weren't a thing, but logically identifying what frame was what would have been.

If CK says his bike was No.2 because it was the first after Joe's to hit the road, then so be it. No.7 on the list, No.2 to see dirt.

Like Hollister said, it's identified as No.7, that's a simple fact of the stamping. The No.2 bit is the cool story. The "discrepancy" between numbers is part of the story and the mystique. It is what it is.

And it's a very cool story about people taking initiative and taking the steps from "riding bikes on dirt" to "establishing the MTB industry".

Grumps


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

Irony of all of the serial number talk.

From a pure manufacturing perspective, T7 will always be a better product than T1 or T2.

John


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## rev106 (Jul 9, 2009)

I'd take any of them, I'm not picky.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

I'd really like to know if CK has taken the second built Breezer S-1 out for any rides since he's had it back in his possession.


CK - any runs down Repack for ole' time sake?


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## syklystt (Mar 31, 2010)

great question, as it is a bike built to be beat upon, I'd think it would be fun to ride again...and again. Heck, that's why i collect the bikes I do, so I can see how some of the bikes ride that I couldn't get anywhere near in the past.
We need a Pic. of CK riding this baby again (should be on the back cover).


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

yo-Nate-y said:


> So, per Shaun's question, then what should we call the Breezer that is stamped #2?


There isn't one. All the frames have three digit numbers on them. I once asked Joe what the numbers meant. He said, "They're just good numbers."

Joe made sure I got the "special" one, with the butted top tube. And of course he made sure I got the first one after his, which is why it is called "#2."

Anyone who has a problem with Joe's numbering should ask him why he has been telling people for 35 years that I own Breezer #2. I would love to be there when it happens. Let me know if you plan to do this, so I can bring beer and a folding chair.

I find it ironic that "re-enactors," who are fascinated by the profound experience I shared with a few friends, go to such trouble to document every aspect of the rise of mountain biking, yet have not a clue about the ACTUAL experience. It's like somebody who finds a fossilized toe bone and conjures up some fantastic creature from it, when the actual species is nothing like that and is still around to be studied.

You guys know where it went. We didn't know then what it would be, only that we were pushing into new territory, and it was beyond exciting. I realized how cool this was getting around 1978, and I took care to document my involvement. A collector will never feel one percent of the passion and enjoyment I had from the activities that became mountain biking, racing Repack for the first time, seeing my new Breezer, seeing my crazy race on national TV, building the coolest bikes in the world with my best friend, putting on the Clunker Awards, going to Crested Butte on a lark, MC at the first MTB Hall of Fame induction, publishing my own magazine where I could say anything I wanted, and uniting a community around a new kind of fun. Collecting the hardware is a noble pursuit, but it has nothing to do with how it felt to take part in the process that created the sport.

Apparently some here believe that it elevates their non-experience to tear my real experience down, but I was more than just a participant in these events, I directed most of them. There are people who have earned the right to criticize me, but they don't, and they do not post here.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Repack Rider said:


> There isn't one. All the frames have three digit numbers on them. I once asked Joe what the numbers meant. He said, "They're just good numbers."
> 
> Joe made sure I got the "special" one, with the butted top tube. And of course he made sure I got the first one after his, which is why it is called "#2."
> 
> ...


 I couldn't care less. I don't give a rat's axx about whatever you did. I am freaking annoyed by your posts. I like nice bikes and if you ever tried to sell me one, no matter how good, i would go buy from someone else. I am THAT annoyed by your attitude. 
I won't even go into the distance of you calling others nobodies x ...never mind: i don't find it funny to humilliate anyone.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

^You're right, that was anything but funny.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

Repack Rider said:


> A collector will never feel one percent of the passion and enjoyment I had from the activities that became mountain biking, racing Repack for the first time, seeing my new Breezer...


You know, I consider all the back and forth good fun and don't take it too seriously but your statement quoted above is really silly.

Charlie, you've been riding a long time and I'm going to guess the riding is a huge part of your life. I can say that's true for many (most?) of us here and most of us are collectors. I just bought a custom Ti bike (Mendon...I'll get pics soon!) and do you think you had 100x the pride that I did? Did you feel 100x the excitement on the first ride as others?

I raced last weekend with a guy on my wheel for the *entire* eighteen-miles through hairpins in the triple digits, he was there and I finished literally 1" in front. Was Repack more exciting than that sort of race? Was your racing more exciting than my competitors or your rides better than the dozens of people on VRC?

It's cool that you have a first series Breezer of whatever number. But your experiences and passions are no more and no less significant than those of anyone else.


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

Somebody better bring beer money this time.


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## Retro Dude (Jun 7, 2010)

pinguwin said:


> I just bought a custom Ti bike


What's the serial number?:thumbsup:


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## Uncle Grumpy (Oct 20, 2005)

pinguwin said:


> It's cool that you have a first series Breezer of whatever number. But your experiences and passions are no more and no less significant than those of anyone else.


This.

CK, the story of how it started is cool. Breaking the ground between a passion of a few and sharing that with the world, which has become one the most popular sports and pastimes in the world - that's cool. We accept your role in that, as we do those others who were with you.

But if you didn't do it, someone else would have. But, it *was* you and your crew that did what you did. Nobody here is trying to tear down your contribution, your passion or your experience. So please, don't tear down anyone else's. Sorry, but when I railing a corner on my favourite corner I'm not going "thank you CK", I'm going "weeee!. Really, I am. The fact that I'm having fun and it's taking me away from my woes is great, and I'll credit you for your part. And I credit the guys at Santa Cruz who made the bike I rode today. The people at SRAM for the groupset, Hope for the brakes and hubs, myself for building the bike, my wife for letting me out to ride, my mates who join me, all get credit for that experience.

The self congratulatory attitude is starting to wear a bit. You were a key part of something awesome. You know it, we know it. Those that don't know it wouldn't have the brains to get out of the rain. Can't we just leave it at that?

Grumps


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

Retro Dude said:


> What's the serial number?:thumbsup:


14-07

Carl Strong built it, so for 2014, it was his 7th frame. OMG, #7!!1! He finished it in February but I didn't take delivery of it until July due to the custom paint work so since it was delivered later, maybe it should be something else.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Well said Grumps.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

syklystt said:


> great question, as it is a bike built to be beat upon, I'd think it would be fun to ride again...and again. Heck, that's why i collect the bikes I do, so I can see how some of the bikes ride that I couldn't get anywhere near in the past.
> We need a Pic. of CK riding this baby again (should be on the back cover).


My guess is that he'll conveniently ignore this question or punt as to why he can't/won't ride the bike again.

However, he _will_ trivialize your experiences as a mountain biker!


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Nice choice. I have a Strong Stage Race. He's the real deal.


pinguwin said:


> 14-07
> 
> Carl Strong built it, so for 2014, it was his 7th frame. OMG, #7!!1! He finished it in February but I didn't take delivery of it until July due to the custom paint work so since it was delivered later, maybe it should be something else.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

pinguwin said:


> 14-07
> 
> Carl Strong built it, so for 2014, it was his 7th frame. OMG, #7!!1! He finished it in February but I didn't take delivery of it until July due to the custom paint work so since it was delivered later, maybe it should be something else.


Very nice. I have a Carl Strong road bike, but it has no serial number. I guess he decided to start using them at some point.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

It's probably good for a bike to have a serial number. That way, if it's stolen, the police can enter it into a database, even if four digits (Even the 1991 Klein Attitudes had 4 digits serials) they can get a match. If someone removes the decals and rattle cans it, it's going to be hard to identify.


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> My guess is that he'll conveniently ignore this question or punt as to why he can't/won't ride the bike again.


Lots of questions being ignored, some more than once



wv_bob said:


> Will it be the finished version of the partial history you shared a while back? That was pretty interesting.





wv_bob said:


> Hey Charlie, is your book based on the draft that was on your website a couple or more years back? I remember you posting a link to it at one point which led me to it.


I figure you'll get resolution on the serial number right before I get an answer to my question about the book.


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## sbsbiker (Dec 1, 2007)

pinguwin said:


> 14-07
> 
> Carl Strong built it, so for 2014, it was his 7th frame. OMG, #7!!1! He finished it in February but I didn't take delivery of it until July due to the custom paint work so since it was delivered later, maybe it should be something else.


You painted a Ti frame??? To add weight, or to cover the welds? (joke) how about a pic?


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Pinguin is a strong rider. He can afford the weight penalty.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Reenacters! Haha. Nah. We ride not for glory but for fun and for ourselves. Way to bite the hands that feed ya! 

I am really interested in the strong, ping. Please post it up.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Ping is a tease.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

Ok, to avoid a threadjack*, I'll post it on another thread. It's not vintage but it is very much Klein inspired, so yeah, we'll go there. I'm going for a ride right now but will post by tomorrow.

* At this point in the thread, a threadjack is the best thing that could happen to it.

Yes, SBS, painted Ti and it was worth it. Even Carl Strong said, "I love it!" Tim, yes, I'm being a tease, so here you go. So hold off on comments until tomorrow.


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

I haven't read CK's book yet. I haven't found the time. So to be able to give an accurate opinion, I decided to break my collarbone on a ride this morning. Shamefully, I was on my road bike. I guess my calendar has opened up.

John


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

Amazing, same characters, different day......When they are up there with TR and JB I might take notice . Wannabe's .......


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## sbsbiker (Dec 1, 2007)

pinguwin said:


> Ok, to avoid a threadjack*, I'll post it on another thread. It's not vintage but it is very much Klein inspired, so yeah, we'll go there. I'm going for a ride right now but will post by tomorrow.
> 
> * At this point in the thread, a threadjack is the best thing that could happen to it.
> 
> Yes, SBS, painted Ti and it was worth it. Even Carl Strong said, "I love it!" Tim, yes, I'm being a tease, so here you go. So hold off on comments until tomorrow.


Looks fun, more please, all my Ti frames are boring and gray.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

The zebra fuorescent pain i can stand.. but coupled w/ a gold King headset? "Ban"!


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## venturi95 (Apr 25, 2012)

colker1 said:


> The zebra fuorescent pain i can stand.. but coupled w/ a gold King headset? "Ban"!


Yeah, head set should be purple anno.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

colker1 said:


> The zebra fuorescent pain


I hear yah Colker, it hurts my eyes too. Not sure if you meant to include a "t" or not but it works either way.  Will post on a separate thread tonight.


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## Bokchoicowboy (Aug 7, 2007)

Took me a while to get sick of this whole thing. I know I am not perfect, that I have angered and upset others on this board in threads I have participated in with a hot attitude, but man.....the whole bunch of you who are nit picking CK....for that matter the whole lot who are on both sides of whatever the argument is really about...you are all pissing all over what mountain biking is supposed to be about. You are all really a bummer. 

Why don't you just leave CK alone. 

Don't worry so damn much about the details on stuff that really doesn't matter.

You want to counter anything CK said in HIS book, write your own damn book.

I bet you would not have the balls to say such things to his face, in person. The anonymity and protection of posting to an internet message board sure gives you some stones, makes you think you are so invincible and righteous. 

The thing that attracted me to mountain biking way back in the 80's is the different ethos the new segment of cycling had compared to the roadie/track culture. It was not so high-strung. It did not take itself so seriously. It was forgiving. It was fun. 

The crap you have spewed here is not fun. It blows away what I see mountain biking is all about. The way I see it, CK gets it, knows it, has lived it. I cannot say the same for many who have posted in this thread. I would not want to ride with you, have a beer with you, spend any time to get to know you and your story.

Some of you have simply been mean. Knock it off.

And by the way, the thread hijack is way inappropriate. You should have just made your reference to your new Ti ride and directed anyone interested to a thread you created to show said bike.


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## 70sSanO (Nov 20, 2013)

I'm up to page 40 of Fat Tire Flyer and it reads a lot better than this thread. Very well written book.

John


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