# VW TDI VS Prius



## Cajun Rich (Mar 6, 2010)

We are shopping for a new car for her. It will be a daily driver for a 20 mile each way stop and go commute. I already tried to put her on a commuter bike. She is not having that. I am looking for some reviews from people who drive these cars not the radical fanatics. Any helps tips or advice would be great.


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## 9GUY9 (Jul 14, 2007)

drive them both. They are very different vehicles. 

I would vote for a TDI hands down. I enjoy cars and driving them. A Prius is not exactly a "drivers" car. I am a VW tech, and although I have never owned a VW or had the desire to do so I think they are good cars. The interior of the VW is much nicer than a Prius. Plus you can get a TDI in a wagon.


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## Cajun Rich (Mar 6, 2010)

How do the VW's hold up? I know the engine is great but what about the body and interior? I see a lot on the road that could go either way. I dont know if its lack of quality or owner neglect.


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## 9GUY9 (Jul 14, 2007)

Cajun Rich said:


> How do the VW's hold up? I know the engine is great but what about the body and interior? I see a lot on the road that could go either way. I dont know if its lack of quality or owner neglect.


I think their pretty good cars. The majority of the problems come down the road from lack of maintenance. They have free scheduled service for the first 30K miles. Once the warranty is up they do cost a good bit more to maintain than non Euro brands. You couldn't give me a Touareg thats out of warranty.

If your looking for a Jetta sedan I would look for a 2010 model, as the new redesigned 2011 models were "cheapened" up quite a bit to make them more competitive with entry level cars. The 2011 wagons have not changed yet.


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## Kris (Jun 15, 2004)

I have a 2010 Golf (Jetta in USA) Sportwagen with the TDI engine. I bought the car for long distance summer travel (usually mountain bike related) and don't drive it much in the city as I ride my bike as much as possible. For long distance driving I don't think the car can be beat, mileage is superb, the car is fast and comfortable and feels very well built.

The downside of the TDI is that it takes forever to warm up in the winter but that's not an issue in Florida I'd imagine!

For stop and go city driving I'd imagine the Prius would be superior, for interstate the TDI would be superior. I'd base my decision on that... other than the fact that a Golf TDI is way cooler than a Prius and thus I'd buy the Golf no mater what.


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## Tallsilver1 (Oct 18, 2005)

The wife has a 2010 Prius III, I drive it 1-2 x week.

Overall I think it's a great car, the life time fuel economy is holding at 50.3 mpg after about 14,000 miles and my wife does not drive it in the most fuel efficient manner.

It's a great city / suburb car, very comfy on the highway, no problems at 75-80 mph and getting 45-50 mpg as long as theere are no huge hills and/or super strong winds.


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## Dan0930 (Oct 25, 2005)

stop and go? no question Prius


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

1) Don't get a 2011 Jetta sedan. It's a POS compared to the 2010. The wagon is still using the old body style
2) Despite being kind of noisy, the Jetta will be a lot nicer to drive, especially on the highways. It'll get about the same highway mpg as a prius, althoug on more expensive fuel
3) Driving dynamics really don't matter in town. The Prius gets better city mpg. The Prius will be significantly more reliable and cheaper to maintain.

The Prius is the more sensible choice. The Jetta is the more interesting car (unless you're looking at the 2011).


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## 475856 (Feb 6, 2010)

I'd get the VW TDI over a Prius any day. There is a reason that Europeans don't buy into the hybrid hype as diesels are more reliable and get great fuel economy too. Some smaller cars we don't get here.. get 60 to 70 mpg 
When it is time to replace that poison pill of a battery pack in the Prius, you'd better have saved up about $ 4 K when it is out of warranty....

Interesting read here..http://www.wisegeek.com/which-are-the-most-fuel-efficient-cars.htm


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## Dan0930 (Oct 25, 2005)

TDI is dope and does get great gas mileage but not in city conditions. the OP had stated the original intent as "It will be a daily driver for a 20 mile each way stop and go commute" 

In this regard the regenerative braking of the Prius comes through as a superior choice.


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## Dr.Preroll (Jun 2, 2009)

*neither.*

I'd do some research on the powertrains of the Prius and the EMR waves that come off the powertrain.Appartantley it's the same type of energy that comes off cell phones. VW's always have some glitches, normally electrical and cost heaps to repair. I'd suggest maybe even looking at a Hyundai. The new Elantra Sedan get's wicked fuel economy 4.9ltr/100 ( sorry, Canadian ) The warranty in the States is a 10 year, and the money you would save over the Prius or the TDI will fund your bikes for a bit!


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## JDM (May 2, 2008)

I had a TDI and loved it. I keep buying VWs because I like them, but I wouldn't actually recommend them to anyone.

Is you goal to save money, save the planet, or make a political statement? Driving 10k per year you'll only save ~$200 per year going from 35MPG to 45MPG at $3/gal. It'll take you 25 years to pay back the $5k premium you pay for the TDI or the prius over a corolla.


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

OscarW said:


> I'd get the VW TDI over a Prius any day. There is a reason that Europeans don't buy into the hybrid hype as diesels are more reliable and get great fuel economy too. Some smaller cars we don't get here.. get 60 to 70 mpg
> When it is time to replace that poison pill of a battery pack in the Prius, you'd better have saved up about $ 4 K when it is out of warranty....
> 
> Interesting read here..http://www.wisegeek.com/which-are-the-most-fuel-efficient-cars.htm


Diesels are popular in Europe because it's typically cheaper to fuel and drive as the truckers unions make it so (they'll shut down an entire country if they don't get lower taxes on anything diesel). Plus, only Toyota hybrids (and really only the Prius) and Toyota just ain't popular in Europe.

If people objectively bought on saving money and conservation there would never be a diesel or hybrid passenger car ever sold in the US. If people were really concerned about saving money and the environment they'd buy a low mileage, slightly used Civic or Corolla.


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## Cajun Rich (Mar 6, 2010)

Sal I am selling a 2006 Civic mpg is not that great average is about 32. My previous 2000 model Civic would do great. I would would average between 36 and 40. If I could find one of those with low mileage I would pick it up quick.


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## romanl (Jul 31, 2010)

'10 VW GOLF TDI 6MT
40.3 MPG average since i got the car.
7 month , 16,7xx miles later, im loving this car.
very very fun to drive. great milage, great style. etc.
i've never driven Prius, but never had the desire. 
i think you should test drive TDI, you'll probably end up signing and driving it away from the dealer.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*You mean...*



Dr.Preroll said:


> I'd do some research on the powertrains of the Prius and the EMR waves that come off the powertrain.Appartantley it's the same type of energy that comes off cell phones. VW's always have some glitches, normally electrical and cost heaps to repair. I'd suggest maybe even looking at a Hyundai. The new Elantra Sedan get's wicked fuel economy 4.9ltr/100 ( sorry, Canadian ) The warranty in the States is a 10 year, and the money you would save over the Prius or the TDI will fund your bikes for a bit!


.. the same ones that by all studies have no effect on health? These are studies done in many different countries, not just the usual US Corporate biased kinda stuff.

For one, cell phones operate in the microwave band (1.8 Ghz to 2.1 Ghz. The IMR of the Prius operates at way higher amounts of energy and at a completely different EM band, not to mention it's encased in cast aluminum, and got several layers of 14ga steel shielding between you and the motor. They are nowhere near close to the 'same kind of energy', except they are both basically emitting radio waves.

Think about it... if cell phones actually did cause brain tumors or other issues, wouldn't we see a massive unmistakable spike in these issues since cell phone use is up like 1000 times in the last 15 years? In fact, brain cancer rates have dropped off from 7.0 cases per 100,000 to 6.4 in 100,000. Maybe cell phones actually cure brain cancer!

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/risk/brain-tumor-study


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## Cajun Rich (Mar 6, 2010)

This is going to be her car. I am taking her Accord til I can find the truck I want. She does not drive the highway often.


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## kntr (Jan 25, 2004)

I was looking at this earlier this year.
http://www.kalispelltoyota.com/used...en-Jetta-4026c1b80a0a0065003d60c4db856902.htm


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)




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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Looks more like...*



FireLikeIYA said:


> View attachment 591650


...silly ******* attractant. Where's the Palin 2012 bumper sticker anyway?


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## roc865 (Jun 29, 2009)

FireLikeIYA said:


> View attachment 591650


beautiful!:thumbsup:


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

tl1 said:


> ...silly ******* attractant. Where's the Palin 2012 bumper sticker anyway?


It's right next to the "Ron Paul was right!" bumper sticker.:thumbsup:


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## roc865 (Jun 29, 2009)

tl1 said:


> ...silly ******* attractant. Where's the Palin 2012 bumper sticker anyway?


you'll find plenty of prius' on the upper west side of manhattan. everyone pats each other on the back for driving one up there. hey look at me look at me, i'm doing my part to help the environment!! i was parked on a block up there one time with my truck idoling for about 5 minutes while working and someone came up to me and asked me if i could turn off my vehicle to keep the emissions low on the block.:skep:


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## 475856 (Feb 6, 2010)

roc865 said:


> you'll find plenty of prius' on the upper west side of manhattan. everyone pats each other on the back for driving one up there. hey look at me look at me, i'm doing my part to help the environment!! i was parked on a block up there one time with my truck idoling for about 5 minutes while working and someone came up to me and asked me if i could turn off my vehicle to keep the emissions low on the block.:skep:


Hypocrites. Like those movie 'stars' who show up in a Prius after flying in on a private jet.....:skep:


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

JDM said:


> I had a TDI and loved it. I keep buying VWs because I like them, but I wouldn't actually recommend them to anyone.
> 
> Is you goal to save money, save the planet, or make a political statement? Driving 10k per year you'll only save ~$200 per year going from 35MPG to 45MPG at $3/gal. It'll take you 25 years to pay back the $5k premium you pay for the TDI or the prius over a corolla.


I vote for the math angle- I see far too many people buying brand new cars to "save money on fuel" and going thousands of dollars into debt on a car loan, just to save a few bucks at the pump.


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## romanl (Jul 31, 2010)

XJaredX said:


> I vote for the math angle- I see far too many people buying brand new cars to "save money on fuel" and going thousands of dollars into debt on a car loan, just to save a few bucks at the pump.


agreed on the part wehre if you're trying to save money just get a used toyota or something, but i disagree with you overall
i bought a new GOLF TDI because i believe it will serve my needs best. according to you im not saving money? i did the math and regular 2.5 GOLF with same options as my TDI would be about 2,5K less$, but then again i got full tax credit of $1300 which really makes it about $1200 difference, and ill make that up in very little time, in 7 month i put 17,000 miles already, but it wasnt the savings that drove me to buy this car.
i wanted: fun car to drive, range of 600 per tank, german engineering, and if i can help reduce my overall emissions footprint then thats just a bonus
VW GOLF is an amazing car, it really is super fun to drive, its fast, plenty of power, handles like a proper german car, looks great, and i still get 40.3 MPG


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

romanl said:


> agreed on the part wehre if you're trying to save money just get a used toyota or something, but i disagree with you overall
> i bought a new GOLF TDI because i believe it will serve my needs best. according to you im not saving money? i did the math and regular 2.5 GOLF with same options as my TDI would be about 2,5K less$, but then again i got full tax credit of $1300 which really makes it about $1200 difference, and ill make that up in very little time, in 7 month i put 17,000 miles already, but it wasnt the savings that drove me to buy this car.
> i wanted: fun car to drive, range of 600 per tank, german engineering, and if i can help reduce my overall emissions footprint then thats just a bonus
> VW GOLF is an amazing car, it really is super fun to drive, its fast, plenty of power, handles like a proper german car, looks great, and i still get 40.3 MPG


Just to point out... Consumer Reports generally rates German cars as the least reliable.

Also saying that it handles like a proper German car really only means that it handles like a small compact... which it is.

Not dissing on you as I have always wanted to get a Golf but ... really? German cars are better? That is like saying Mac is better than PC... or Nutella is better than PBJ.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Cajun Rich said:


> Sal I am selling a 2006 Civic mpg is not that great average is about 32. My previous 2000 model Civic would do great. I would would average between 36 and 40. If I could find one of those with low mileage I would pick it up quick.


Just to point out... Some states have changed their fuel composition over the past few years. I am in AZ and we use to have 10% ethanol for our winter fuel but it has changed to 10% ethanol year round. My gas mileage has dropped roughly 5-10% since they have done so (I am one of those geeks who keeps track). The lower mileage you are experiencing on your '06 Civic may be due to something similiar.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Whelllp....*



XJaredX said:


> I vote for the math angle- I see far too many people buying brand new cars to "save money on fuel" and going thousands of dollars into debt on a car loan, just to save a few bucks at the pump.


... if you're gonna buy a new car anyway, may as well choose one that gets good mileage. Some folks just have to spring for a new car when they change cars.

Depends on what are are coming from as well. If you're at the end of a 3 year lease, you can either choose to buy the car you are leasing, or get something else. If the car you are leasing is a V8 rail frame SUV, then trading in on a gas saver will certainly save you money, both in gas an insurance.

I'm not one of those folks. I tend to buy ~$10k used cars that are a few years old I pay cash for, and maintain them well, and trade up when they start to feel like they are falling apart after I put 150k miles on them myself.

And yeah, I drove VWs and Audis which aren't the most reliable out there, but they aren't bad in my experience. My last VWs I got well over 250k miles on without seeing much unexpected shop time. A bit, but not much. The unreliability factor is not big enough to overcome my love of the way they feel and drive, and how the love isn't there for other cars.

If you think that VWs feel like any other compact car, you really need to go drive one.... or maybe you really can't tell the difference. To me, its night and day. To me, they look and feel like somebody actually cared and loved the cars they designed.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Since I ride bike, I don't like pollution or overseas oil or climate change risk, so I would have to see Prius since it has a much better pollution score and uses almost half the oil.










My families VW GTI had issues and they had to dump it when the transmission went out. I don't know why they bought another GTI.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Here is some more helpful info....









These are better numbers than the EPA. CR calculates their own MPG in real world driving. The EPA puts a car on a conveyer belt which is not as accurate.

The Prius is obviously the best in terms of MPG, however, another thing to consider is resell value. Diesels are known to last forever. A hybrid battery will eventually need to be replaced and they are not cheap. I think you will have a harder time getting rid of the hybrid when it comes time to replace it.


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## roc865 (Jun 29, 2009)

FireLikeIYA said:


> Here is some more helpful info....
> 
> View attachment 592105
> 
> ...


another thing to consider is the prius is one of the uglier looking cars.


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## romanl (Jul 31, 2010)

FireLikeIYA said:


> Just to point out... Consumer Reports generally rates German cars as the least reliable.
> 
> Also saying that it handles like a proper German car really only means that it handles like a small compact... which it is.
> 
> Not dissing on you as I have always wanted to get a Golf but ... really? German cars are better? That is like saying Mac is better than PC... or Nutella is better than PBJ.


its funny that only in US is VW seen as less reliable,
anywhere else around the world VW is seen as one of the most reliable cars.
and as far as PC vs MAC its all about personal preference and to me MAC is better.


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## romanl (Jul 31, 2010)

FireLikeIYA said:


> Also saying that it handles like a proper German car really only means that it handles like a small compact... which it is.
> .


as for comparing cars it doesnt have to be in just one class.
example: AUDI A6 vs Chevy Impala i've driven both and Audi wins
AUDI Q7 vs Chevy Suburban or any other large SUV, once again AUDI wint
BMW 3 series *(any of them) vs Camry or any other mis side, germany wins again,
btw my GOLF is plenty roomy inside.and when compared to other hatces of similar size that i've driven or been in, ex: Toyota Matrix, Pontiac vibe, Scion TC, etc, all of them do not come close to my GOLF, 
so once again your argument makes no sense and german engineering wins once again


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

romanl said:


> its funny that only in US is VW seen as less reliable,
> anywhere else around the world VW is seen as one of the most reliable cars.
> and as far as PC vs MAC its all about personal preference and to me MAC is better.


When I was in highschool I use to work at Subway as a "Sandwich Artist". The first thing I learned during orientation is that 90% of the sandwich taste comes from how the sandwich looks... In other words its all about perception. As much as I hate the magazine and as nice as the VW looks... Consumer Reports is usually right.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

romanl said:


> AUDI A6 vs Chevy Impala


Starting MSRP: $45,200 vs $24,390



romanl said:


> AUDI Q7 vs Chevy Suburban or any other large SUV


Starting MSRP: $45,700 vs $22,745 (That's for the Equinox... Tahoe/Suburban are in a different class as they are body on frame)



romanl said:


> BMW 3 series *(any of them) vs Camry or any other mis side


Starting MSRP: $33,650 vs $19,720



romanl said:


> btw my GOLF is plenty roomy inside.and when compared to other hatces of similar size that i've driven or been in, ex: Toyota Matrix, Pontiac vibe, Scion TC, etc, all of them do not come close to my GOLF,
> so once again your argument makes no sense and german engineering wins once again


Hey, I am not dissing on German cars. I really like them. I actually really like Audi. I almost bought an RS4. I even went to their driving school (Audi Driving Experience) that was ran by Panoz school of Racing at Road Atlanta before they sold out to Skip Barber. I am just saying that they are not reliable and most of that German driving sensation that you are feeling is coming from the fact that German cars run on the small side....


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## GT5050 (Jan 23, 2008)

The argument that the VW has that "German" feel rings somewhat true, especially comparing it to the Prius. Cars in the same segment as the Golf/Jetta TDI just don't drive the same. Steering feels disconnected, suspensions not as buttoned up, and the overall driving experience suffers. 

Anyone who cares about driving at all would know that the Prius is an abysmal car to drive. Vague steering, horrible driving position (what were they thinking), need I say more. That said, for some, it just makes a whole lot of sense, and the car serves its purpose. And there are many more who care about getting from point A to B than they do about driving. 

As for your case, which does she like better? I mean go drive them both, the cars are different enough that you should have a glaring winner at the end of the day...


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## romanl (Jul 31, 2010)

another thing to keep in mind,
GOLF/Jetta TDI you can still get as a manual *(its a 6 speed too  )
prius only comes as auto slush box


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Well, its an automatic...*



romanl said:


> another thing to keep in mind,
> GOLF/Jetta TDI you can still get as a manual *(its a 6 speed too  )
> prius only comes as auto slush box


.... but the Prius runs a CVT with a planetary gear system instead of a torque converter. It actually uses an electric motor to counter spin a planetary gear while the gas engine spins a sun gear forward to keep the car stationary, or vary the traction, ICE and MG2 motors to make whatever speed out of whatever combination of the three. Its pretty frickin cool how it works.

http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

I haven't driven a Prius in a long time (prolly a 1st gen Prius), but I have a whole bunch of hours logged in a Toyota Highlander Hybrid, which is pretty much the same thing but larger. It is way more responsive than any other traditional automatic slushbox. Plus, that truck lays down some crazy power, I must say. It could keep up with my Audi A4, and still return similar gas mileage.

I'm with you, tho. I love manual transmissions. I have never owned an automatic of any kind, and hope never to... well, I may get a cheap minivan to make a weekender vehicle.


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## markom (Jan 21, 2004)

romanl said:


> its funny that only in US is VW seen as less reliable,
> anywhere else around the world VW is seen as one of the most reliable cars.


In Europe we get to benchmark reliability with French cars though... along with higher average quality of fuel (at least is should be for the 4x price!) this may be the reason for better reputation.
:skep:


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## Endomaniac (Jan 6, 2004)

I’ve owned a Prius for almost 5 years and hate it. Don’t get me wrong it’s a good car never a problem, comfortable, does everything adequately, and gets great mileage. It’s just no fun. 
If I were buying right now it would strongly consider a jetta Wagon TDI with a 6 speed if that’s possible.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*What's not fun about it?*



Endomaniac said:


> I've owned a Prius for almost 5 years and hate it. Don't get me wrong it's a good car never a problem, comfortable, does everything adequately, and gets great mileage. It's just no fun.
> If I were buying right now it would strongly consider a jetta Wagon TDI with a 6 speed if that's possible.


Are you sad because your boy-racer fantasies are not coming true on public roads and with VW TDI groupies while driving a Prius? Vroom, vroom.


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## DFYFZX (Jun 19, 2009)

My brother's wife has a Prius and it's TERRIBLE in the snow! The traction control can not be completely over ridden and the hyper-mileage tires are a joke in the snow. You can't pick a gear from a dead stop since it's a CVT tranny so you basically just push the peddle and hope the car gets traction. He also would agree with the previous statement, "the car is no fun". I think any remotely enthusiastic soul should choose the TDI over the soulless Prius 

The Prius may be "greener" from a consumer fuel usage argument but how much pollution does it take to actually build one with the battery manufacturing being take into account??? Also, the dead batteries have to go somewhere. I doubt the car's complete lifecycle is any cleaner than the TDI and it's not nearly as fun to live with. 

And the argument that the Prius costs less to maintain than the TDI is completely valid up until the batteries/hybrid system crap out. The guy my brother bought his Prius from had to replace the batteries out of warranty(mileage was 150+k) and it cost around $5000! Fixing a few electronic gremlins on the TDI over a long period of time is much less a hassle than a $5000 repair bill out of the blue! And if you're a do-it-yourselfer, good luck trying to do anything other than very basic stuff to the Prius. The thing is an engineering marvel but it's beyond most of our abilities to tinker on. Not much is undoable on the "basic" TDI...


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

DFYFZX said:


> My brother's wife has a Prius and it's TERRIBLE in the snow! ...
> 
> The Prius may be "greener" from a consumer fuel usage argument but how much pollution does it take to actually build one with the battery manufacturing being take into account???...
> 
> And the argument that the Prius costs less to maintain than the TDI is completely valid up until the batteries/hybrid system crap out. The guy my brother bought his Prius from had to replace the batteries out of warranty(mileage was 150+k) and it cost around $5000! ...


1. If you want to be green ride a bike. There is nothing green about a personal car that burns oil. The Prius is only a lesser of to evils.

2. That is too bad for your buddy that had the dealer replace the Prius High Voltage battery for major coin. Yet, for the DIY type, you can rebuild a Prius pack with the money saved on fuel from the TDI over one year.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Prius-Battery-Replacement-Do-It-Yourself
Home Power Magazine has also done articles on DIY battery replacement.

Since your friend had the car Prius for ~8 years, the Prius paid for the battery 8 times over.

3. Study: Diesels, hybrids retain more value than gasoline-fueled vehicles

4. If you live in a region that snows, why get a 2WD, so TDI is out. Going to Tahoe, usually the roads are closed once you really can use 4WD.

5. End of life batteries are recycled. Even if the whole Prius battery was tossed, the average american goes through a lot more e-waste than Prius batteries. That means that if you use a computer, phone, cell phone, Ipod, tv, radio, printer, microwave, that you are polluting more than replacing a Prius Battery.

6. The bill on a VWs low reliability transition is $5000, so even if you did have to buy a battery from the dealer, it could be a wash.

In the end, get the car that you want. Not everyone wants the look of the Prius, so don't get it. Get a Chevy Volt:thumbsup: It plugs in to cleaner energy, while oil is getting dirtier and more risky in politics.


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## bwheelin (Apr 4, 2008)

From a looks standpoint I'd go with the VW. The Prius is butt ugly and than you have the smugness factor added in.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Tell him to get some...*



DFYFZX said:


> My brother's wife has a Prius and it's TERRIBLE in the snow! The traction control can not be completely over ridden and the hyper-mileage tires are a joke in the snow. You can't pick a gear from a dead stop since it's a CVT tranny so you basically just push the peddle and hope the car gets traction. He also would agree with the previous statement, "the car is no fun". I think any remotely enthusiastic soul should choose the TDI over the soulless Prius
> 
> The Prius may be "greener" from a consumer fuel usage argument but how much pollution does it take to actually build one with the battery manufacturing being take into account??? Also, the dead batteries have to go somewhere. I doubt the car's complete lifecycle is any cleaner than the TDI and it's not nearly as fun to live with.
> 
> And the argument that the Prius costs less to maintain than the TDI is completely valid up until the batteries/hybrid system crap out. The guy my brother bought his Prius from had to replace the batteries out of warranty(mileage was 150+k) and it cost around $5000! Fixing a few electronic gremlins on the TDI over a long period of time is much less a hassle than a $5000 repair bill out of the blue! And if you're a do-it-yourselfer, good luck trying to do anything other than very basic stuff to the Prius. The thing is an engineering marvel but it's beyond most of our abilities to tinker on. Not much is undoable on the "basic" TDI...


...actual snow tires, preferably the studless ones like Bridgestone Blizzaks or Michelin X-Ice. With those fitted the Prius is great in the snow as long as the ground clearance holds out.

The life cycle thing has been beat to death. Yes it's still much greener to drive a car that gets 50 MPG than one that gets 10, 20 or 30 MPG. There are first gen 14 year old Priuses in taxi use that have more than 250,000 miles and still have their original batteries because they are charged and discharged very conservatively. That said, used Prius hybrid battery packs (such as from wrecked vehicles) have been selling for less than $1000 and new packs for second gen models were $2588 last time I checked not $5000. Also check the emissions warranty in your state, in CA for example the emissions warranty covers parts _and labor_ on replacing the Prius batteries up to 150,000 miles.


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## norton55 (Oct 5, 2005)

I got my wife a Audi A3 TDI. We get 45 + mpg. I know it is not a VW but the cars are pretty much the same. If you have ever seen how they mine lead and sulfuric acid, it is not a pretty sight. Lead/acid batteries are not very environmentally friendly.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

norton55 said:


> I got my wife a Audi A3 TDI. We get 45 + mpg. I know it is not a VW but the cars are pretty much the same. If you have ever seen how they mine lead and sulfuric acid, it is not a pretty sight. Lead/acid batteries are not very environmentally friendly.


Note that Lead-Acid Batteries are the standard starter battery in almost every car that have a life of around 6 years on average because of the low tech, packaging, and low cost. Also, note, that that lead acid batteries are recycled more than any other product because of there residual core value.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

What about the new Chevy Volt?










Its basically a Battery Electric Vehicle, charged on home for your up to 40 mile commute, and a gas-electric hybrid past the 40 mile pure EV range.

The result for most drivers, you will not use any oil at all, until you go on a long trip, which you will still get 40 MPG highway. Even on a long trip the Volt will use >20% less oil than the TDI. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm

Worried that your electric bill will go up? Electricity is cheap and electric motors are >3 times more efficient than a diesel engine! You will save $1000/ year on energy to power your car over the VW TDI.

The base is not cheap at $33,500 after tax incentives. Since US Oil generation Peaked in the '70s, the lack of oil use is important environmentally and politically to its buyers. It's made in the US, it uses US energy, instead of shipping oil money out of the country and it does IMOH, it looks good in red.

While the TDI will pollute more over time as oil is harder to find and net oil decreases, the Volt will get cleaner as more renewable energy comes on line. With some more coin, you can put solar, wind or micro hydro in at your home and charge on 100% renewable.


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## Miles2go (Nov 4, 2006)

FireLikeIYA said:


> Just to point out... Consumer Reports generally rates German cars as the least reliable.
> 
> Also saying that it handles like a proper German car really only means that it handles like a small compact... which it is.
> 
> Not dissing on you as I have always wanted to get a Golf but ... really? German cars are better? That is like saying Mac is better than PC... or Nutella is better than PBJ.


Wrong. Spoken by someone that obviously doesn't have any ownership experience of a proper sports car. No disrespect but if you make such statements...

The classification "compact car" has no implications regarding balance, proper spring rates, brake fade, cockpit ergonomics, crash performance, and so on and on.

I've owned more than 10 BMWs, 3 Porsches, several VWs and a host of other cars including many that were designed and produced within the US. The German made and engineered vehicles have never let me down and have been very efficient, even the high performance models relative to their classification.

To the OP. We have a 2011 VW Jetta Sportswagen with the 6spd manual. It has about 9k miles on it at this point and it's averaged up to 47mpg on a tank and I have lead foot. That's about 600 miles of mountain driving per tank. Zero issues though I'll say it's no BMW. That said, the car is fast, handles very well, goes perfectly fine in the snow and is a car that I can seat 5 in comfortably, plus a couple of dogs or gear. Even with two mtbs up top along with a large gear pod, we get about 550 miles on a 14 gallon tank here in the mountains.

Also note that this car was declared the "green car of the year" for 2009, the year it was introduced. Tests have shown that it's among the best for clean emissions and has the designation of being a "clean diesel" car.

We bought the TDI wagon because we needed a new wagon that would work well commuting on high speed canyon roads in all weather. Not because it was "green". The car really impressed me on the test drive and the price was right. Edit to add: It also just got us an additional tax break.

YMMV


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## Miles2go (Nov 4, 2006)

FireLikeIYA said:


> Hey, I am not dissing on German cars. I really like them. I actually really like Audi. I almost bought an RS4. I even went to their driving school (Audi Driving Experience) that was ran by Panoz school of Racing at Road Atlanta before they sold out to Skip Barber. I am just saying that they are not reliable and most of that German driving sensation that you are feeling is coming from the fact that German cars run on the small side....


Wrong again, for the same reason.

A 7 series BMW is not on the small side and yet it handles and feels much like its smaller siblings, all the way down to the two seaters. Your Skip Barber instructors would assume that you were asleep in class if they read what you're writing.

And...how many German cars have you owned to qualify in saying that they are not reliable. :lol:


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

There's some irony in that Prius is on average much more reliable than the average German car, and in general, German car reliability issues (especially in and amongst the luxury marques) is inexcusable. Not trying to troll, just calling it like I see it. 

I'm amazed people buy either; buying a lightly used compact is better environmentally and financially than buying a new hybrid or "clean" diesel.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

Raping the environment by buying a Prius is incredibly irresponsible when it comes to the environment. The strip-mining in Sudbury (for the nickel to make Prius batteries) is obscene:










Recycling an old 13 mpg Ford F-150 is an infinitely more green way to go.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*This old saw again?*



RIS said:


> Raping the environment by buying a Prius is incredibly irresponsible when it comes to the environment. The strip-mining in Sudbury (for the nickel to make Prius batteries) is obscene:


This myth has been debunked so many times it's amazing that many people haven't got the word. Or purposely choose to ignore the truth. All of that damage was done early in the last century when mining practices allowed it and before environmental regulations prevented it. That was all was decades before Toyota started buying materials for hybrid batteries from that mine or any other mine.



RIS said:


> Recycling an old 13 mpg Ford F-150 is an infinitely more green way to go.


I doubt it, that's mostly a comfortable myth but forget being "green" for a second; in the USA 3 out of 4 gallons of motor transportation fuel is made from oil bought from other countries. Keep in mind that the USA is one of the top oil producing coutries in the world too.

Besides Canada, the overwhelming majority of those countries are run by horrible anti-democratic corrupt ruling governments that in many cases actively support terrorism against US citizens. And we're making them richer and richer by the day driving vehicles that get poor fuel economy.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

tl1 said:


> Besides Canada, the overwhelming majority of those countries are run by horrible anti-democratic corrupt ruling governments that in many cases actively support terrorism against US citizens. And we're making them richer and richer by the day driving vehicles that get poor fuel economy.


I've never owned a Prius before. When you go to the gas station, do you fill it up from a special pump with gas that comes from a source other than those that get richer by supporting horrible anti-democratic corrupt ruling governments that in many cases actively support terrorism against US citizens?


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*You're still regurgitating that swill?*



RIS said:


> Raping the environment by buying a Prius is incredibly irresponsible when it comes to the environment. The strip-mining in Sudbury (for the nickel to make Prius batteries) is obscene:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The amount of nickel in a Prius battery is less than the amount used in the galvanizing of an F150 body.... also not to mention... the Prius has gone to a Lithium Ion battery. Is there even any nickel in there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion

Not to mention, the nickel from Sudbury has been coming out of the ground since 1880s. You can hardly blame the devastation at Sudbury on the Prius.

Look, RIS. I know you have an ax to grind against the Prius, but do yourself and all of us a favor and actually research your "facts" before parroting the lies and exaggerations put forth by the righties and the oil industry.


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## one piece crank (Sep 29, 2008)

I've spoken with a few Prius owners, and they always say they never attain the combined MPG advertised. You' basically have to drive all day in a slow enough speed to never engage the gas motor. Yeah, right... What about those batteries and rare earth metals in the electric motors - environmentally friendly?

I have a 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. It's been fantastic. I am a DIY mechanic, so it's never seen a dealer since it rolled off the lot. I get 50mpg highway, 45mpg for basic daily driving. Newer models have cleaner engines, less pollution, but lower mpg's. VW's are IMHO fantastic vehicles.

Tom P.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*I do own a Prius*



RIS said:


> I've never owned a Prius before. When you go to the gas station, do you fill it up from a special pump with gas that comes from a source other than those that get richer by supporting horrible anti-democratic corrupt ruling governments that in many cases actively support terrorism against US citizens?


And I just don't go to gas stations that often, like every 500 miles or so or once a month on a 12 gallon tank. I also think about and practice ways to drive less all the time. If you on the other hand fill up a 13 MPG Ford F-150 a few times a week you can be assured that you are actively supporting people that are seriously undermining US security and are also making our country less wealthy and more jobless at every fill-up. Granted many people need trucks for work and that's fine with me but they are a bad idea as personal "cars" in ways beyond just thinking of "green" stuff.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*I routinely get 50-60 MPG*



one piece crank said:


> I've spoken with a few Prius owners, and they always say they never attain the combined MPG advertised. You' basically have to drive all day in a slow enough speed to never engage the gas motor. Yeah, right... What about those batteries and rare earth metals in the electric motors - environmentally friendly?
> 
> I have a 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. It's been fantastic. I am a DIY mechanic, so it's never seen a dealer since it rolled off the lot. I get 50mpg highway, 45mpg for basic daily driving. Newer models have cleaner engines, less pollution, but lower mpg's. VW's are IMHO fantastic vehicles.
> 
> Tom P.


..in warmer temps. from 40 F and up. It always drops in the winter cold though like _all cars_ but 40-50 MPG is still no problem then depending how much snow and slush you're driving through. You need to learn the pulse and glide technique in a Prius but it's not hard to learn.


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## was98strat (Jul 10, 2007)

9GUY9 said:


> drive them both. They are very different vehicles.
> 
> I would vote for a TDI hands down. I enjoy cars and driving them. A Prius is not exactly a "drivers" car. I am a VW tech, and although I have never owned a VW or had the desire to do so I think they are good cars. The interior of the VW is much nicer than a Prius. Plus you can get a TDI in a wagon.


Also another thing people won't want to discuss... the PRIUS is NOT an environmentally friendly car. the amount of heavy metals in the batteries and mercury in all that extra electronics far out weighs the "dirt" of the diesel!!!

not to mention that parts for the Prius are sourced from all over the globe make it a really "dirty" car on the whole!

besides the TDI is a much nicer car to drive!


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

was98strat said:


> Also another thing people won't want to discuss... the PRIUS is NOT an environmentally friendly car. the amount of heavy metals in the batteries and mercury in all that extra electronics far out weighs the "dirt" of the diesel!!!
> 
> not to mention that parts for the Prius are sourced from all over the globe make it a really "dirty" car on the whole!
> 
> besides the TDI is a much nicer car to drive!


I think you are mistaken by a common misinformation campaign. The high voltage battery in the Prius is the Nickel-Metal Hydride variety, with is not "heavy medal" based.

On the other hand, the starter battery in _your _ car, almost all cars, including the Prius is Lead-Acid, which is usually recycled and handled appropriately.


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

TDi's may get good mileage, but they are not cheap to own in the long run. When you start getting up in the 100K mile range, the timing belt/water pump change, plus the injectors, plus special oils filters and oil really add up. While we were getting 45 MPG in out Jetta TDi, the additional cost of maintenance and diesel fuel surpassed the fuel savings. A Corolla or Civic that gets 38 MPG with parts available at Auto Zone ended up being cheaper. Back when diesel was 2/3 the price of gas, it felt like cheating, but now that it is more than gas it just doesn't add up.


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## 475856 (Feb 6, 2010)

I can't wait to see what happens to the electric grid when 150.000 peeps plug in their overpriced Chevy Volt at night for a recharge.....


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

OscarW said:


> I can't wait to see what happens to the electric grid when 150.000 peeps plug in their overpriced Chevy Volt at night for a recharge.....


The grid becomes more efficient due to load leveling since night charging is off peak.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

1) The vast majority of energy used in a cars life is fuel energy. Something like 80%+.

2) The rare metals, like lithium and nickel...and even lead, found in automotive batteries are valuable even at the end of the parts life. I imagine the vast, VAST majority will be recycled and those nickel and lithium atoms will be used for some other device, possibly a battery, 100 years from now. Car batteries are all ready the most recycled item on earth, and they're dirt-cheap compared to hybrid batteries.

3) Plug in hybrids will, for quite a long time, run on basically free energy. Coal burning and nuclear powerplants are designed to run full-tilt all the time. The efficiency drops at significantly reduced power levels. It also takes on the order of a day or so to throttle them up or down. Running at less than 100% means they're not able to keep up with fluctuations in demand. So, at night any excess energy just gets dumped out the cooling tower. Putting that energy into car batteries would be fantastic and create a dramatic drop in pollution, even if you charge them up with coal (since the coal is being burnt anyway). Topping them up in the middle of a hot day would be a problem, but most will charge at night.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

A coal-powered car. Who woulda thunk it?


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## riddie (Jun 12, 2009)

not even a question.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Even a 'coal powered' car....*



RIS said:


> A coal-powered car. Who woulda thunk it?


... is more efficient than gasoline. Less COx and by-products are generated by coal in a power plant, even with transmitting the energy over hundreds or thousands of miles of power lines, than gasoline in your IC engine... by a lot... a lotta lot.

You ever wonder what that big fat radiator in the front of the car is for?


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*And really...*



Killroy said:


> The grid becomes more efficient due to load leveling since night charging is off peak.


.... its not like 150,000 cars are going to be plugged into the same grid block. I'm sure they will learn to adjust the grid to keep up with demand as more electric cars come online over the next few decades.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

pimpbot said:


> .... its not like 150,000 cars are going to be plugged into the same grid block. I'm sure they will learn to adjust the grid to keep up with demand as more electric cars come online over the next few decades.


If you did not know, Google Smart Grid and Vehicle to Grid (V2G) technology. The concept is that the Electric Vehicle communicates with the grid and charges during lower power demand and during high demand the car batteries are taped to prevent a black out, using all the car batteries as a giant battery.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

RIS said:


> A coal-powered car. Who woulda thunk it?


Coal Powered Car

Coal can be converted to fuel, and during WWII and during the '70s and '80s oil shortages, it was looked into, but its really inefficient well to wheel.

If the US gets serious about coal cars or coal to liquid fuel, then take it as a major warning sign that oil reserves are not what they are said to be.

About Charging a EV on 100% Coal:



> In terms of CO2 emissions, if electricity is generated from renewable sources like hydro, solar, or wind, zero emissions are created when charging an electric vehicle. Even in the worst case when using coal-fired electrical plants, producing the electricity to charge an EV creates less carbon emissions than the average US passenger vehicle (28.2 mpg equivalent vs. 22.4 mpg in 2006). Fortunately, coal isn't the only source of electricity in the US and is the predominate source in only a couple of regions. Using the average for the US grid, in terms of CO2 emissions, an EV causes CO2 emissions equivalent to 44.2 mpg. Charging off the west coast average grid, EVs are eqivaluent to 142.9 mpg. As the electrical grid gets cleaner, so do all electric vehicles on the road, while gas vehicles get dirtier and less efficient with age.


http://www.saxton.org/EV/evfaq.php


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

@dam said:


> 1) 3) Plug in hybrids will, for quite a long time, run on basically free energy. Coal burning and nuclear powerplants are designed to run full-tilt all the time. The efficiency drops at significantly reduced power levels. It also takes on the order of a day or so to throttle them up or down. Running at less than 100% means they're not able to keep up with fluctuations in demand. So, at night any excess energy just gets dumped out the cooling tower. Putting that energy into car batteries would be fantastic and create a dramatic drop in pollution, even if you charge them up with coal (since the coal is being burnt anyway). Topping them up in the middle of a hot day would be a problem, but most will charge at night.


You have a few conceptual errors there. Energy is not free. It is true that most powerplants obtain their greatest efficiency at full load but your reasoning on how power is placed on the grid is wrong. There are basically three different types of power plants; base, intermittant and peaker. Nuclear, coal and sometimes but rarely natural gas units will fall under the base loaded category. Base loaded plants are just that... They run at full load 24/7. Nuclear will always be base loaded with the exception of testing or bringing the units on or offline. Base loaded power plants are there to meet a utilities minimum retail load requirement. Throughout the day/night as more demand is being placed on the grid a utility will start up the intermittant power plants. The intermittant power plants usually cost more to operate than the base loaded power plants but intermittant power plants can respond quicker to changes in load than a base loaded unit. Peaker plants are usually only operated when there is a very high demand on the grid or if there are large fluctuations in demand as they have the worst heat rate but are also able to rapidly respond to changes in load (the exception here being hydro power as dams are very cost efficient). If more demand is being placed on the grid at night than what the base units can handle than the intermittant units will make up the load. However, utilites are required to keep some rolling reserve on the grid in case a unit trips so a intermittant unit might be running at minimum load anyway. As far as pollution is concerned the intermittant units are usually the cleanest as they are mainly combined cycle natural gas units that run at greater than 60% efficiency. Energy will never be dumped (i.e. to the cooling tower) as it can be sold to other utilities... even in other states (except Texas as they are on their own grid). I have attached a picture that shows the different power grids.

https://www.ercot.com/content/news/mediakit/maps/NERC_Interconnections_color.jpg

BTW, if you are into renewables I just wanted to mention that wind power for the most part is a joke. Don't buy into T. Boone Picken's smoke and mirrors. The grid will never be able to handle the rapid changes in power on the large scale. Regulations require that some form of rolling reserve (in other words, a fossil fuel plant) is required for wind power as its generation chages rapidly! Push geothermal, solar and nuclear. Push that all new homes are required to have solar panels.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Thanks for the details. Yeah...wind & solar really needs to be coupled with energy storage devices to be practical- otherwise you just waste energy somewhere else. Los Alamos Natinoal Labs is working on a nanotube based energy storage device that may fit the bill- uses the enormous surface area of the nanotubes like a capacitor.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

@dam said:


> Thanks for the details. Yeah...wind & solar really needs to be coupled with energy storage devices to be practical- otherwise you just waste energy somewhere else. Los Alamos Natinoal Labs is working on a nanotube based energy storage device that may fit the bill- uses the enormous surface area of the nanotubes like a capacitor.


Wind and Solar couple dot energy storage? You mean this: V2G?


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

@dam said:


> Thanks for the details. Yeah...wind & solar really needs to be coupled with energy storage devices to be practical- otherwise you just waste energy somewhere else. Los Alamos Natinoal Labs is working on a nanotube based energy storage device that may fit the bill- uses the enormous surface area of the nanotubes like a capacitor.


Interesting, but capacitors only store Vdc... it would most likely have to be converted back to Vac. Not only that but it most likely would have to be stepped up to 230KVac unless they are going to run dedicated lower voltage lines... that would be very expensive. It's not very practical. Utilities would be all over it if it were. Being able to store power is the equivalent of having another generation unit. The only way utilities are able to store energy currently is with dams. Some dams have the capability of pumping the downstream water back up into the reservoir... This uses more energy than what is recovered but it allows for supplementing power during peak load conditions. Personally, I think the most cost effective method for going green is requiring that all new homes be built with solar panels. The cost of the solar panels could be financed with the house. We have the technology and it could be implemented immediately. This would be very practical for everyone except the city and states as they would lose tax revenue from energy sales. The increased mortgage payments would be offset by a lower utility bill. Back in 2009 the utility that I work for was projecting energy prices to increase 50% by 2015... The recession may have slowed down the pace but energy prices are going to be going up. The new EPA emission requirements are forcing utilities to go to natural gas which is much cleaner but cost 10X as much to produce 1MW as compared to a coal or nuclear plant. Nuclear is an alternative but they are so expensive that a utility would be betting its existence to build one. If you hear increase talk about coal gasification it most likely will be due to this and not low oil reserves.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

I'm very skeptical of vehicle-to-grid ideas for 2 reasons: You don't want to go to your car and find out you don't have enough power to get where you're going, and cycling the battery is very hard on it, and the wear on the battery may be more expensive than the electricity.

What we really need is breeder nuclear reactors. They generate far less waste, but some obsolete laws prevent their construction.


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## chowdownca (Jun 21, 2006)

Why has no one mentioned Bio Diesel? With older TDIs, you are able to convert the fuel systems to run off of 40-50-80, even 90% bio-diesel. Or WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil) that you can get for free at most restaurants? While not yet "approved" for the 2.0 TDIs, I've read that several people are running their VWs on any of those and getting well over 45 mpg. Regardless of what you drive, you're still driving and that will never be green. The Prius is probably great for in town driving, but is wholly unattractive to me. Resale, after the Toyota recall/"acceler-gate" issues, seems to have fallen off. With cars in and of themselves being bad investments, I would rather drive something that I'm comfortable in, with the possibility of not losing as much of my shirt when it comes to resell. We shopped and got 0% financing on a 2010 TDI Sportwagen. We then put the money we were "saving" on the financing to extend the warranty for 2 years past the payoff of the car. Bumper to Bumper for 7 years, all money paid going to principle, 40+mpg, room for the dog, and heated seats . Your wife might have other needs, but mine went into the dealership wanting to hate the VW. She's the one who drives it daily with a smile!


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*It's not that bad*



@dam said:


> I'm very skeptical of vehicle-to-grid ideas for 2 reasons: You don't want to go to your car and find out you don't have enough power to get where you're going, and cycling the battery is very hard on it, and the wear on the battery may be more expensive than the electricity.
> 
> What we really need is breeder nuclear reactors. They generate far less waste, but some obsolete laws prevent their construction.


I'm sure they will have some sort of management for that. It would be world class stupid not to.

They have NiMH and LiIon battery management down pretty well these days.

IIRC, the Prius won't let the battery get below 20% or above 80% of total cell capacity. When you stay in that range, they last a very long time. Ever notice that there isn't a huge rash of failed Prius batteries after being on the road for 10+ years? There are some failures, but not many.

When folks think of battery failures, I think they have in their minds that electric (and electric assist) cars are like their battery powered drills. Everybody I know runs their drill batteries down to zero then charges them... or they leave the batteries off the chargers for months on end, which kills NiMH and NiCad batteries like crazy. No wonder a drill battery seems to only be useful for 2 or 3 years.

In a related issue, I read somewhere that a laptop battery will run for many more years if you just tweak the power management to not allow it to get under 20% charge... if you set it to shut your computer down before it gets that low.

In my case, I have a 23 mile commute each way. If I drove in a Nissan Leaf with a 100 mile range, in theory I would use half the battery in one day (not counting running the AC, heat or headlights), then charge it back up at night in my garage (ha! you should see my garage! That isn't going to happen any time soon!). I think there is plenty of cushion in that spec to cover my needs.

It would for sure cover my wife's needs. She works from home, and only really goes out for errands to the shipping company and to pick up and drop off the kids from preschool. She only puts like 5k or 6k miles a year on her car. A tank of gas in her Audi goes for about 2 and a half weeks.

With all this whining about batteries and range, folks forget that there is almost zero maintenance on an electric car. No timing belts (which is a $1200 job on my cars), 3k-5k mile oil changes, no plugs, belts, cams, valvetrains, piston rings, crank and rod bearings, tensioners, idlers, water pumps or junk like that. Only batteries and tires for normal wear-out maintenance parts. These things are pretty dead simple. I think it might be commonplace in the future to see electric cars with 300k miles on them without major failures. Seems like these days, keeping a car over 200k miles means you get into the really expensive work that makes the car useless (although I had 250k+ miles on my GTi before I sold it, and it was still in decent shape).

Actually, some power company was working on battery banks. They would buy up used hybrid and electric vehicle batteries when their capacity got down below 50% of new and store them in a giant battery bank to absorb the extra energy from solar and wind production, to be let back onto the smart grid when the sun went down and the wind stopped blowing.


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

The first time I heard the notion of "V2G" I literally laughed out loud. Not only is it a technical disaster - even forgetting the wear-n-tear on current battery technology, the inefficiency of the charge/discharge cycle and copper losses of transmission would be immense - Orwellian tendrils of this nature are socially catastrophic.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

@dam said:


> What we really need is breeder nuclear reactors. They generate far less waste, but some obsolete laws prevent their construction.


A new generation of reactors is being developed called Gas-cooled fast reactor. They should cost considerably less to build and are safer than water cooled reactors.

Speaking of nuclear waste, did you know that spent nuclear fuel can be recycled. What causes the reactor fuel to be considered end of life is not that all of the uranium has decayed but that neutron absorbing elements (xenon and samarium) have built up in the fuel from the fission process. Roughly 40% of the core at end of life is still good but in the US we do not recycle the fuel it is just stored on site. I guess it doesn't really matter though with a decay half life of around 700,000 years (U-235 has a pretty long shelf life) this may change when/if we need it.

Some more rattling off of useless knowledge.... Many people don't know this but coal plants actually emit more radiation than a nuclear plant. Uranium is naturally occurring in coal. When the coal is burned the uranium is released. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Cajun Rich said:


> We are shopping for a new car for her. It will be a daily driver for a 20 mile each way stop and go commute. I already tried to put her on a commuter bike. She is not having that. I am looking for some reviews from people who drive these cars not the radical fanatics. Any helps tips or advice would be great.


Have you decided on which car to get?


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## jtkkz (Sep 1, 2004)

TDI's are nice

other options Toyota Yaris, Mazda 2 cheap maintenance, excellent gas mileage as well


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## mtec (Sep 23, 2010)

A little late in the game, but I've commuted 50 miles a day in an older generation B4 TDI

I get around 800 miles per 18 gallon tank, depending on how I drive (which is never slow). 

Putting a two bike rack on the roof barely put a dent in my freeway fuel economy. 

When a TDI breaks, it usually breaks hard, but still let's say you're doing a new injection pump for a couple grand, amortize that out over the mileage you get out of it, and its hardly pennies per mile. Still from what I've read, less painful than replacing all the costly electric crap inside these new hybrid cars. 

German cars are designed to be maintained. They aren'y built for lazyasses who change their oil once every 6 months / 10,000 miles and then wonder why it breaks. Thats what Ford, GM, Toyota, etc are for, and that's why they drive the way (rubbery and indifferent) they do. Not implying anything toward anyone, just saying.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Is that the thinking on VWs now?*



mtec said:


> German cars are designed to be maintained. They aren'y built for lazyasses who change their oil once every 6 months / 10,000 miles and then wonder why it breaks. Thats what Ford, GM, Toyota, etc are for, and that's why they drive the way (rubbery and indifferent) they do. Not implying anything toward anyone, just saying.


I drove a 1985 VW GTI that I bought new for 12 years. Oil and filter changes were always 3 months or 3000 miles and wasn't even remotely a "lazyass" about maintaining it but I was always "maintaining" that thing with new parts even before the warranty ran out. And VW parts are generally expensive and if you don't do your own work so is the service!

In speaking constantly to VW drivers since I sold that car, it has been repeatedly brought to my attention that VW has not improved the reliability and dependability of their cars in the years since. It's not like they're highly stressed unreliable performance machines, they're just crappy. I like how VWs drive and would like to drive one again but I wouldn't want to actually _own one_ again unless I was planning on selling it within 3 years of it being new. Even then, many owners of new VWs have issues with their cars too.

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand/


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## rockhopperss (Feb 21, 2011)

Chevy Cruze? they get near 40mpg without expensive batteries or diesel. Uncle had a 2005 cobalt 5spd base model and averaged 38mpg with it. Would get just over 40 on longer trips. All out of a $12k car. 

Hyundai? Kia? You can get a car at almost 1/2 the price of a Prius, and likely end up saving money over time. Both Hyundai and Kia have come a LONG way in building a nice car, a guy at work owns a 2009 Sonata and it is one nice car, inside and out. He gets about 34mpg with its 2.5l (I think?) 4cyl.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*They all look like good cars*



rockhopperss said:


> Chevy Cruze? they get near 40mpg without expensive batteries or diesel. Uncle had a 2005 cobalt 5spd base model and averaged 38mpg with it. Would get just over 40 on longer trips. All out of a $12k car.
> 
> Hyundai? Kia? You can get a car at almost 1/2 the price of a Prius, and likely end up saving money over time. Both Hyundai and Kia have come a LONG way in building a nice car, a guy at work owns a 2009 Sonata and it is one nice car, inside and out. He gets about 34mpg with its 2.5l (I think?) 4cyl.


The Cobalt had very bad crash ratings but the Cruze looks good in that area. The new Cruze, Elantra, Sonata and Optima look like sweet cars with very good fuel economy. Economically the Cruze, Optima and Elantra are probably better values than any hybrid or diesel, at least at present fuel prices. Though the upcoming Optima Hybrid looks promising. Now that the Middle East is in incredible turmoil and it's feasible our oil imports could be radically reduced in favor of a growing China and India OR prices could rise precipitously it's time we start doing something about breaking our addiction to using vast oceans of imported oil and driving within our means.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Heh....*



tl1 said:


> I drove a 1985 VW GTI that I bought new for 12 years. Oil and filter changes were always 3 months or 3000 miles and wasn't even remotely a "lazyass" about maintaining it but I was always "maintaining" that thing with new parts even before the warranty ran out. And VW parts are generally expensive and if you don't do your own work so is the service!
> 
> In speaking constantly to VW drivers since I sold that car, it has been repeatedly brought to my attention that VW has not improved the reliability and dependability of their cars in the years since. It's not like they're highly stressed unreliable performance machines, they're just crappy. I like how VWs drive and would like to drive one again but I wouldn't want to actually _own one_ again unless I was planning on selling it within 3 years of it being new. Even then, many owners of new VWs have issues with their cars too.
> 
> http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand/


Not my experience at all. I maintained my Dubs well, but had very few real issues. I had a clutch go out at 130k miles, then another at 170k because my pushrod seal leaked tranny oil on the clutch, but that was the only real expensive issue I had.

I guess my Audi's steering rack seals went out, and that wasn't cheap. At least it was under warranty.

Heck, my mom's Toyota Corolla had a complete auto tranny failure at 30k miles, and a catalytic converter fail at 40k miles. Yeah, Toyota is further up the reliability chain than VW/Audi, but they aren't bad in my experience.

I gotta say, my GTi looked way better at 240k miles and 14 years than my mom's Corolla did at half that age.


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## lassiar (Nov 11, 2010)

Check out my dubs.


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

rockhopperss said:


> Chevy Cruze? they get near 40mpg without expensive batteries or diesel. Uncle had a 2005 cobalt 5spd base model and averaged 38mpg with it. Would get just over 40 on longer trips. All out of a $12k car.
> 
> Hyundai? Kia? You can get a car at almost 1/2 the price of a Prius, and likely end up saving money over time. Both Hyundai and Kia have come a LONG way in building a nice car, a guy at work owns a 2009 Sonata and it is one nice car, inside and out. He gets about 34mpg with its 2.5l (I think?) 4cyl.


It's the proverbial white elephant; neither hybrids nor diesels can match the economy and environmental friendliness of the average econo car; doubly so if said econo car is slightly used ("recycling" + letting someone else suffer the steepest part of the depreciation curve).


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Ymmv*

...as always. I would say the dependability trends for VW are improving a little in recent years while Toyota's have clearly been going the other way. Cars from neither company would be my first choice today based on results in that area though. Given the Camry-ization of the new Passat though, I think they're clearly trying to emulate the wrong company. But that's nothing new, the jokers at VW America once tried to "Malibuize" the late 70s American built Rabbit with softer suspension and crappier interior materials to try to make it appeal to more Americans. Of course they ruined the Teutonic essence of the car until they screwed their heads back on and started selling the first Rabbit GTIs here. Then once the Pennsylvania plant was producing really good cars they closed that plant and again produced much worse Mexican built cars for a long time. :madman:


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

In my more than anecdotal experience, even today, Toyota/Lexus still builds/sells the best quality cars in the (US) market, and VWAG, still some of the worst. Sure the gap isn't as big as it used to be, but it's still sizable. 

Sure, one can't expect an RS6 to be as reliable or carefree as a Camry or Tacoma but an A4 or Passat? Yeah, one can and should expect it yet VWAG simply has issues delivering.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

pimpbot said:


> and a catalytic converter fail at 40k miles.


Umm...how is that possible?


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Jayem said:


> Umm...how is that possible?


Yes, catalytic converters fail when exposed to gas. So, if you are having misfiring from another failed component, spark plug, wires, coils, the cat will eventually fail soon. Good thing the emission system is required by law to be under warranty for 100,000 miles.


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## OSUHUEY (Feb 18, 2011)

VW By Far! Chances are that it wont get recalled like the 6 million toyota's

By the way i drive a gas 06 Rabbit and still get 29mpg 

Just my .02


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

SAL9000 said:


> It's the proverbial white elephant; neither hybrids nor diesels can match the economy and environmental friendliness of the average econo car; doubly so if said econo car is slightly used ("recycling" + letting someone else suffer the steepest part of the depreciation curve).


Yup. But it doesn't appease their left-leaning superiority complex through the image that it conveys, so they keep buying diesels and hybrids from companies that focus their marketing on the natural fiber crowd.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

pimpbot said:


> Heck, my mom's Toyota Corolla had a complete auto tranny failure at 30k miles, and a catalytic converter fail at 40k miles..





Jayem said:


> Umm...how is that possible?


I bet there is an underlying cause. Maybe the shop contaminated the O2 sensor when they pulled the tranny and it threw a code 10K miles later after it burned up. Sounds odd that a tranny would go out at 30K. I had a non-mechanically inclined buddy that occasionally would do his own oil changes. He would drain the oil, put the plug in, and fill the motor back up with oil. At roughly 60K his tranny went out. It turned out that he was draining the tranny and filling up the engine (with excessive oil... double whammy!). The tranny was replaced (under warranty!!) and the car is still running to this day with 120K on it. My daily driver is a 2002 Toyota Camry with 190K that I have owned since new. The only thing I have done to it is install a K&N filter that I clean every 40-50K, change oil every 8K, transmission fluid every 15-50K, belt and plugs once, a couple of motor mounts, brake pads a couple of times and tires. The struts are shot and I am getting ready to change those out as well. Toyota uses Denso for their electrical components and their parts are top notch. I average 30MPG. Toyota's are reliable in my book.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

And 35 years of progress in fuel mileage has given us what?


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## 475856 (Feb 6, 2010)

SAL9000 said:


> In my more than anecdotal experience, even today, Toyota/Lexus still builds/sells the best quality cars in the (US) market, and VWAG, still some of the worst. Sure the gap isn't as big as it used to be, but it's still sizable.
> 
> Sure, one can't expect an RS6 to be as reliable or carefree as a Camry or Tacoma but an A4 or Passat? Yeah, one can and should expect it yet VWAG simply has issues delivering.


I doubt that VW ever recalled as may vehicles as Toyota has lately...Today another Toyota recall with 2.17 Million vehicles.... 
I'd put my money on VW as we had a legion of GTI's and Passat's in our family, both here in the US and in Europe. Nobody ever had any major issues with them...YMMV


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*That is what light weight*



RIS said:


> And 35 years of progress in fuel mileage has given us what?


...decent aerodynamics and modest power levels get you. For whatever the debatable reasons are (safety equipment, features) cars are not that light weight and modestly powered anymore. Even the lightest Mini Cooper today weighs around 2700 lbs. dry and has well over 100 bhp as far as I can tell.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*I'd have to ask you to*



RIS said:


> Yup. But it doesn't appease their left-leaning superiority complex through the image that it conveys, so they keep buying diesels and hybrids from companies that focus their marketing on the natural fiber crowd.


...back those sentiments up if you can. Even the most thrifty "econocars" whatever that ancient term means can not match the fuel economy of turbo-diesels and hybrids and fuel economy determines the ultimate "environmental friendliness" of a car not really anything else. Please try to not come back with the myth-busted supposed Toyota Prius caused environmental destruction at the Sudbury Ontario nickel mines again too.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

RIS said:


> And 35 years of progress in fuel mileage has given us what?


Something to be said about small, lightweight and areo. Yet by today's EPA highway fuel economy ratings the Datsun is only a ~43.6 MPG gas. I'm sure its polutants are fairly high also.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Killroy said:


> Something to be said about small, lightweight and areo. Yet by today's EPA highway fuel economy ratings the Datsun is only a ~43.6 MPG gas. I'm sure its polutants are fairly high also.


I am sure it wouldn't pass a crash test either.....


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

tl1 said:


> ...back those sentiments up if you can. Even the most thrifty "econocars" whatever that ancient term means can not match the fuel economy of turbo-diesels and hybrids and fuel economy determines the ultimate "environmental friendliness" of a car not really anything else. Please try to not come back with the myth-busted supposed Toyota Prius caused environmental destruction at the Sudbury Ontario nickel mines again too.


Prius owners (the ones that don't lie, at least), have reported fuel mileage numbers to the government as low as 32 mpg:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008seleeng2f.jsp?year=2005&make=Toyota&model=Prius

Top gear did even worse, getting 17.2 mpg from a Prius (a 400+ horsepower V8 BMW M3 got 19.4 mpg under identical conditions):


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

And as Clarkson pointed out, there's a lot of energy consumed, that might not be readily apparent to you as you stand in the showroom basking in your own impending superiority. In addition to raping the planet to start with, the proceeds of that rape are then transported on a ginormous transport ship which pukes obscene amounts of diesel soot into the atmosphere, and so on down the chain. 

YOU may think that advertised fuel mileage is the sole criteria for environmental friendliness, but that is a hopelessly short-sighted misconception. It does a whole lot more environmental damage to dump a 4800 pound 13 mpg V8-powered F-150 pickup into a landfill and then have to build an entire Prius to replace it, than it does to simply replace an occasional starter motor or set of brake pads in the pickup to keep it out of the landfill, and not build the Prius at all.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

The average person drives about 12,000 miles a year.

A 16 year old F150, at 13 mpg, would burn 923 gallons of gas. At $4/gallon, that's $3692 in gas a year. It's paid for, so there is no cost for interest for a car loan. And at this age, you're losing virtually nothing in depreciation. And liability insurance is cheap.

A 2011 Prius is probably going to set you back about $30,000. By the time you've added the interest to the loan, probably a lot more than that. According to Kelley Blue Book, the trade-in value of a 2008 Prius in good condition is about $14,000. At 45 mpg for 12,000 miles, you'll burn about 267 gallons of gas, which at $4 a gallon, is going to cost you about $1068. Plus, you're going to have to pay for full-coverage insurance because your financing a $30,000 car.

So over three years, your taking it up the pooper to the tune of $16,000 in depreciation, for the privilege of saving $7872 in gas. Plus, your insurance is more expensive, and you're paying interest on a $30,000 car loan

The only people who buy Prius vehicles are either really bad at math, or they are really concerned about the image that they portray. You'd have to be pretty stupid to think that it has anything to do with the environment.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)




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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Did you know that the UK...*

...imports a far smaller percentage of their oil that the USA does? They have a lot of oil of their own in the North Sea and they use far less oil per capita than we do. Make no mistake the vast amount of the oil we use is for transportation and most of that oil use goes into motor gasoline not jet fuel or diesel or other transportation fuel. We are captive to Venezeula and Russia and Saudi Arabia and so on simply because we choose to drive a lot of big heavy personal vehicles for a lot of miles.

Clarkson goes on about the Prius because it's entertaining TV. It would be really boring to watch a report about a Prius otherwise, there's no clouds of tire smoke billowing from it. If you're getting 17 or 32 MPG from one (esp. imperial gallons) there is something seriously wrong with the car or driver's technique. But 17 MPG is still probably 4 times what they get in reality with their other test cars.

I don't evangelize on the environmental aspects of oil use even that's a huge problem but it's the economic and security problem of importing 3/4 of our oil used for transportation that is far more pressing. To put our oil problem in perspective I recommend reading a few of Thomas L. Friedman's columns on the subject.



> If Not Now, When?
> 
> By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
> Published: February 22, 2011
> ...


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*That is pretty dodgy logic.*



RIS said:


> And as Clarkson pointed out, there's a lot of energy consumed, that might not be readily apparent to you as you stand in the showroom basking in your own impending superiority. In addition to raping the planet to start with, the proceeds of that rape are then transported on a ginormous transport ship which pukes obscene amounts of diesel soot into the atmosphere, and so on down the chain.
> 
> YOU may think that advertised fuel mileage is the sole criteria for environmental friendliness, but that is a hopelessly short-sighted misconception. It does a whole lot more environmental damage to dump a 4800 pound 13 mpg V8-powered F-150 pickup into a landfill and then have to build an entire Prius to replace it, than it does to simply replace an occasional starter motor or set of brake pads in the pickup to keep it out of the landfill, and not build the Prius at all.


Who exactly is dumping a perfectly good F-150 in a landfill and then building a brand new Prius to replace it? One could still own an F-150 but just drive it less to use less gas. I don't think anyone is trying to grab your truck (or your guns) and throw it in a landfill so chill the f&ck out about it.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*What about if you...*



RIS said:


> The average person drives about 12,000 miles a year.
> 
> A 16 year old F150, at 13 mpg, would burn 923 gallons of gas. At $4/gallon, that's $3692 in gas a year. It's paid for, so there is no cost for interest for a car loan. And at this age, you're losing virtually nothing in depreciation. And liability insurance is cheap.
> 
> ...


...sell your gas guzzler whatever it may be, instead of throwing it in a landfill, take the money and buy a used Prius. That kind of screws up all your financial and environmental calculations doesn't it.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Back to TDI vs Prius.

With today's $4/ gallon gas, $4.50 diesel, 15,000 miles/year, and average fuel economy data from consumers on fueleconomy.gov (48.6 MPG gas &	34.1 MPG diesel)


Prius $1235 Gas Cost/year
TDI $1918 Diesel Cost/year  



Now consider 2020's $8/ gallon gas, $8.99 diesel that Kenneth Worth, author of "Peak Oil" predicts. 

Prius $2469 Gas Cost/year
TDI $3956 Diesel Cost/year


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## lassiar (Nov 11, 2010)




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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

tl1 said:


> Clarkson goes on about the Prius because it's entertaining TV. It would be really boring to watch a report about a Prius otherwise, there's no clouds of tire smoke billowing from it. If you're getting 17 or 32 MPG from one (esp. imperial gallons) there is something seriously wrong with the car or driver's technique. But 17 MPG is still probably 4 times what they get in reality with their other test cars.


Not exactly. As I pointed out, the 400+ horsepower V8-powered BMW M3 got 19.4 mpg under IDENTICAL conditions. Same course, same speed, same distance, and they ran both cars at the same time. Identical.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

Killroy said:


> Back to TDI vs Prius.
> 
> With today's $4/ gallon gas, $4.50 diesel, 15,000 miles/year, and average fuel economy data from consumers on fueleconomy.gov (48.6 MPG gas &	34.1 MPG diesel)
> 
> ...


And in 2020, there won't be any $30,000 Prius vehicles. I predict in the year 2020, that a new Prius will be more like $60,000.

Any way you slice it, the results will always be the same.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

RIS said:


> Not exactly. As I pointed out, the 400+ horsepower V8-powered BMW M3 got 19.4 mpg under IDENTICAL conditions. Same course, same speed, same distance, and they ran both cars at the same time. Identical.


Given that the M3 only gets and epa 20 mpg MAX, I'm gunna say that the test is complete bs. No one drives a prius like that, and those numbers are highly suspect for the M3 around a track. Im gunna say that test doesnt mean jack as far as the real world.


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## MelvinoelGreat (Feb 18, 2011)

Check out Clarkson's review of the Prius.


















Thanks, my friends.


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## MelvinoelGreat (Feb 18, 2011)

Jayem said:


> Given that the M3 only gets and epa 20 mpg MAX, I'm gunna say that the test is complete bs. No one drives a prius like that, and those numbers are highly suspect for the M3 around a track. Im gunna say that test doesnt mean jack as far as the real world.


20 mpg?! Holy crap, that car is a performer!

My '73 Fleetwood gets 9 mpg on a good day, my friends!


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

You don't suppose Toyota would have a vested interest in entering bogus fuel mileage numbers to the www.fueleconomy.gov web site for the purpose of jacking up the average numbers to try to sell more vehicles, do you:

The low numbers can't be faked by Toyota, and they hover around 32 mpg or so.


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## Pipo_btt (Jan 20, 2005)

I supose that you want to get a best comsuption, hybrid have to drive in long city tours to run by electric motor and in roads to load batteries, on the other hand, Tdi have to drive in highways to get a better comsuption.

Think about your travel.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Not really*



RIS said:


> You don't suppose Toyota would have a vested interest in entering bogus fuel mileage numbers to the www.fueleconomy.gov web site for the purpose of jacking up the average numbers to try to sell more vehicles, do you:
> 
> The low numbers can't be faked by Toyota, and they hover around 32 mpg or so.


As I said before in this thread I routinely get well over 50 MPG with mine. There is a technique to it in a Prius though, called pulse and glide and it's easy to learn. Even so, I have never averaged anywhere near as low as 32 MPG over a tank's worth of gas even while really hammering on the thing trying to get the worse fuel economy possible. To do that by the way puts you in grave danger of getting _speeding tickets_.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Not always*



Pipo_btt said:


> I supose that you want to get a best comsuption, hybrid have to drive in long city tours to run by electric motor and in roads to load batteries, on the other hand, Tdi have to drive in highways to get a better comsuption.
> 
> Think about your travel.


I averaged over 70 MPG in a 100+ mile highway trip by drafting a friend. You can do even better drafting a large vehicle like an 18 wheeler truck. Once up to highway speeds it's mostly air resistance that drops fuel economy in any car and drafting can _drastically_ reduce that. I'm not sure of the legality of hugging the bumper of the car in front of you though. In the future electronics will facilitate safe drafting between cars on the highway.

With a normal IC engined car a larger throttle opening as in highway driving will usually make the engine more efficient by reducing what engineers call pumping losses in the engine. Generally though roads with 40-50 MPH speeds and minimal stops produce the best mileage in a Prius. Once you have an MPG meter and start paying attention to this stuff you notice how all the variables like wind direction and wind speed affect MPG. Ever notice how much more energy you expend riding your road bike into the wind versus having at your back? Ore how easy it is to pedal at the middle of a peloton?


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Yeah, it strains credibilty*



Jayem said:


> Given that the M3 only gets and epa 20 mpg MAX, I'm gunna say that the test is complete bs. No one drives a prius like that, and those numbers are highly suspect for the M3 around a track. Im gunna say that test doesnt mean jack as far as the real world.


..to say the least.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Diesel vs.Gas

It's a common misconception that diesel is more simple to refine, so it should be less expensive. Diesel is higher density fuel and it takes more oil to make, and it is denser in energy than gas. So, if a diesel car and a gas car get the same MPG, then the gas car is about 12% more energy efficient. This explains why the Prius is slightly better in MPG, but a lot better for oil use (see my post on fueleconomy.gov) and that is* a lot better for the US Economy*. :thumbsup:

Revolution in Libya has unearthed the issue that it takes 3 Saudi barrels of oil to make the same amount of diesel as one barrel of Libyan oil. Europe is screwed. I saw this on http://www.theoildrum.com

Diesel does have the potential to be more energy efficient, but the engines are turbo charged, more complex, more expensive, and harder to meet the most stringent US emission standards.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Please stop lying. Please. You're embarrassing yourself*



RIS said:


> Prius owners (the ones that don't lie, at least), have reported fuel mileage numbers to the government as low as 32 mpg:
> 
> http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008seleeng2f.jsp?year=2005&make=Toyota&model=Prius
> 
> Top gear did even worse, getting 17.2 mpg from a Prius (a 400+ horsepower V8 BMW M3 got 19.4 mpg under identical conditions):


If you drive a Prius with your foot to the floor all the time, you get 32 MPG. If you drove a Civic that way, you would get 18 MPG. I regularly drive a Highlander Hybrid loaded with 400 pounds of tools, batteries and parts, and get 27 MPG without driving lightly. That thing is fricking quick, too considering it gets such good mileage for a 4000 pound truck that is an aerodynamic brick (compared to a passenger car). I have several friends with 1st and second generation Priuses, and I've seen myself that they get at least 45 mpg in real world driving. One friend with a 2nd gen Prius has a 55 MPG lifetime average. It's not hard to get good mileage in a Prius, especially if you know how to hit the regeneration right.

Top Gear was just repeating the same stupid discredited POS report from a marketing company funded by an oil company you did, you troll. Yes, if you drive track style all out, you get crappy mileage. Duh. You're just repeating 'what you heard'.

You obviously have not spent any actual road time in a Prius. Again, you have no interest in reality and just keep grinding your ax against anything you don't want to agree with. I hope your police work is more objective.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*2001 Prius gets same MPG after 10 years and 207,000+ miles*

Interesting article on how the first generation Prius sold here has held up long term i.e. ten years later.



> The 200,000-mile question: How does the Toyota Prius hold up?
> 
> Hybrids like the Toyota Prius may save money on fuel, but car shoppers have long wondered how those batteries hold up over the long run. In fact, we're often asked, "When do the batteries need to be replaced, and how much will they cost?" These questions are even more important now that the Prius has been on the market for 10 years--there are many used models on the market. But is it risky to buy a used hybrid?
> 
> ...


More: http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/02/200000-mile-toyota-prius-still-performs.html


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## Cajun Rich (Mar 6, 2010)

Great article thank you!


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

Even though I loath hybrids, I have to admit I'm utterly shocked how reliable and durable the Prius has turned out to be; not just the batteries but the electronics and the whole of the drive system. Only Toyota could have pulled it off so well.


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## Lino. (Oct 30, 2009)

Get a VW, my 2 cents.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

I wonder how the OP is doing with his car shopping?


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*I'm kinda with you*



SAL9000 said:


> Even though I loath hybrids, I have to admit I'm utterly shocked how reliable and durable the Prius has turned out to be; not just the batteries but the electronics and the whole of the drive system. Only Toyota could have pulled it off so well.


The Prius, and Toyotas in general, I have zero passion for. I really like the tech that goes into them, but there is just no love for me in driving them. They seem to be built by engineers who hate driving cars, but want good numbers on paper. They are (IMO) decent transportation, but built without any love for what they built. They feel soulless to me. The Highlander Hybrid I drive at work is decent, tho. Still... pretty numb feeling, and kinda cheap-plasticy inside.

However...

I'm always amazed at the myths and outright lies that get slung at Hybrids. The batteries are mega toxic... bullshiz. They are kinda toxic, but far less toxic than the mountains of gasoline and refining processing they save over their lifetime.... and the batteries are 100% recyclable... and seem to last a very long time due to really good battery management. The battery (the older NiMH battery... they use LiIon now) has less nickel in it than the galvanized body of a mid sized truck. The get close to the claimed MPG in the real world once you learn to drive them. And while they are not quick, they are not any slower than the economy 4 cylinder cars we drove in the 80s, and they feel torquey as heck in town.

Basically, the naysayers (RIS) are a bunch of wusses.... afraid of change... afraid of anything that is different. They want change to fail. They will bag on anything that challenges their world view.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Batter toxicity*



pimpbot said:


> The Prius, and Toyotas in general, I have zero passion for. I really like the tech that goes into them, but there is just no love for me in driving them. They seem to be built by engineers who hate driving cars, but want good numbers on paper. They are (IMO) decent transportation, but built without any love for what they built. They feel soulless to me. The Highlander Hybrid I drive at work is decent, tho. Still... pretty numb feeling, and kinda cheap-plasticy inside.
> 
> However...
> 
> I'm always amazed at the myths and outright lies that get slung at Hybrids. The batteries are mega toxic... bullshiz. They are kinda toxic, but far less toxic than the mountains of gasoline and refining processing they save over their lifetime.... and the batteries are 100% recyclable... and seem to last a very long time due to really good battery management. The battery (the older NiMH battery... they use LiIon now) has less nickel in it than the galvanized body of a mid sized truck. The get close to the claimed MPG in the real world once you learn to drive them. And while they are not quick, they are not any slower than the economy 4 cylinder cars we drove in the 80s, and they feel torquey as heck in town.


Let's not forget how incredibly toxic to the nervous system the lead from lead-acid batteries are. There's many multiples of the amount of lead from car batteries around than there is nickel from Ni-Mh hybrid batteries yet we live with that. RIS do you have any pictures from lead mines?  Everyone should remind people they know not to landfill any battery for safety though and because they can all be recycled.



> Lead, Nickel, Lithium-In That Order
> 
> The need for more robust battery technologies to power vehicles and their accessories prompted Environmental Defense to conduct a three-month research effort in 2005 to examine environmental impacts related to the extraction, manufacture, use, and disposal of nickel metal hydride batteries, as well as lithium ion-which many consider to be the battery of choice in the next five years. Environmental Defense then compared those impacts to lead acid. "Our initial conclusion is that lead is the worst, nickel is next, and lithium is the least harmful," said Thomas. This will greatly depend on what materials are combined with lithium, and how toxic those materials are. Using cobalt, for example, in lithium ion batteries would be problematic. It will also depend on the emerging recycling technologies.
> 
> ...


More: http://www.hybridcars.com/battery-toxicity.html



pimpbot said:


> Basically, the naysayers (RIS) are a bunch of wusses.... afraid of change... afraid of anything that is different. They want change to fail. They will bag on anything that challenges their world view.


I don't think they're wusses they're just feeling angry at anyone that may be doing the right thing versus their own imagining that there's no problem. It reminds me of a very overweight friend that despised runners with an irrational rage. When he would drive by one running near a road he would lower his window and shout furious irrational insults at them. I don't think he really hated runners he hated himself for not getting off his comfortable ass and exercising to lose weight and feel better. He died around 10 years ago of a heart attack so I don't think it was a good coping strategy for his life.


----------



## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

The Prius DOES have a lead-acid battery. It's the one used to start the gasoline-burning engine under the hood. Just like every other car on the road.

But the Prius ALSO has a large nickel metal hydride battery, which normal (non-hybrid) cars DON'T have.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Actually...*



RIS said:


> The Prius DOES have a lead-acid battery. It's the one used to start the gasoline-burning engine under the hood. Just like every other car on the road.
> 
> But the Prius ALSO has a large nickel metal hydride battery, which normal (non-hybrid) cars DON'T have.


...the small 30 something amp-hour auxiliary lead acid battery in the Prius doesn't start the internal combustion engine. It just supplies power to all that stuff that needs it full time when the car is turned off like the clock and security system etc. and it's way smaller than an F-150 starter battery. The internal combustion engine is started by the motor/generator acting as a starter (using the hybrid NIMH battery). Back to the drawing board.


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

pimpbot said:


> The Prius, and Toyotas in general, I have zero passion for. I really like the tech that goes into them, but there is just no love for me in driving them. They seem to be built by engineers who hate driving cars, but want good numbers on paper. They are (IMO) decent transportation, but built without any love for what they built. They feel soulless to me. The Highlander Hybrid I drive at work is decent, tho. Still... pretty numb feeling, and kinda cheap-plasticy inside.
> 
> However...
> 
> ...


I like Toyotas primarily because of Toyota - I have toured their plants in Japan and am well acquainted with lean manufacturing/Toyota Production system, that literally changed the entire world of manufacturing. I also owned a first-gen Tacoma and it was a phenomenal vehicle.

I guess I'm with RIS. Hybrids are a catastrophic financial and environmental failure. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but if hybrid purveyors truly had the courage needed for their convictions, they'd "recycle" and buy a slightly/moderately used Civic or Corolla and save a ton of $$$.


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## Cajun Rich (Mar 6, 2010)

SAL9000 said:


> I like Toyotas primarily because of Toyota - I have toured their plants in Japan and am well acquainted with lean manufacturing/Toyota Production system, that literally changed the entire world of manufacturing. I also owned a first-gen Tacoma and it was a phenomenal vehicle.
> 
> I guess I'm with RIS. Hybrids are a catastrophic financial and environmental failure. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but if hybrid purveyors truly had the courage needed for their convictions, they'd "recycle" and buy a slightly/moderately used Civic or Corolla and save a ton of $$$.


We are selling a civic to do this. Its a 2006 that only gets 35 MPG 15MPG is a large difference. If I worked in an office all day I would commute to work via bicycle. I am a project manager for a generator company and it requires me to do physical labor all day long. Maybe when I graduate in August I will finally get that job offer I have been dreaming about and I will be able to commute daily.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Quite a statement*



SAL9000 said:


> I guess I'm with RIS. Hybrids are a *catastrophic financial and environmental failure.* I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but if hybrid purveyors truly had the courage needed for their convictions, they'd "recycle" and buy a slightly/moderately used Civic or Corolla and save a ton of $$$.


Is there anything more you'd like to tell us on the subject to explain the thinking behind it or is it just another troll? We know the battery issue is a non-issue environmentally and less so as we move to Lithium batteries. The financial picture of owning a hybrid gets better and better as fuel prices rise and they've risen around 50 cents a gallon in just the last few weeks. As more hybrids are produced prices are stable or even dropping on hybrids. We've seen that in the case of the Prius the car's longevity is fact so we have long recycling and disposal cycle when it's finally used up. Where's the catastrophe here?


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Yeah... second that*



tl1 said:


> Is there anything more you'd like to tell us on the subject to explain the thinking behind it or is it just another troll? We know the battery issue is a non-issue environmentally and less so as we move to Lithium batteries. The financial picture of owning a hybrid gets better and better as fuel prices rise and they've risen around 50 cents a gallon in just the last few weeks. As more hybrids are produced prices are stable or even dropping on hybrids. We've seen that in the case of the Prius the car's longevity is fact so we have long recycling and disposal cycle when it's finally used up. Where's the catastrophe here?


Seems to me that the battery is way less of an environmental sin than the thousands upon thousands of gallons of gasoline it saves. I work in oil refineries, and have seen first hand the impact of gasoline production. It ain't pretty... and that is California where things around this stuff are way more strict than in other states.

So basically, its just like a regular car, plus the NiMH battery and IMA motor. So all of this enviro disaster you state is all on the battery since the IMA motor is pretty simple bundle of copper, steel and alu... and the battery lasts a very long time and is 100% recycled at the end of it's life cycle, is this correct?

Also we all know the Prius is a bit more expensive than a regular compact car when new, but the difference in price vs. the gas it saves hits a breakeven point at around 12k miles... maybe 20k miles when gas is at the cheap end (which is isn't right now). So, I don't know where the financial disaster angle you cite comes from. Can you tell us how that works out?

And hey... who's to say that you can't recycle and old Prius? They've been on the market for 10 years. You can buy them used for pretty cheap, and with plenty of miles left to go on the clock. They've been proven to be useful just as long as regular cars.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

pimpbot said:


> Seems to me that the battery is way less of an environmental sin than the thousands upon thousands of gallons of gasoline it saves. I work in oil refineries, and have seen first hand the impact of gasoline production. It ain't pretty... and that is California where things around this stuff are way more strict than in other states.
> 
> So basically, its just like a regular car, plus the NiMH battery and IMA motor. So all of this enviro disaster you state is all on the battery since the IMA motor is pretty simple bundle of copper, steel and alu... and the battery lasts a very long time and is 100% recycled at the end of it's life cycle, is this correct?
> 
> And hey... who's to say that you can't recycle and old Prius? They've been on the market for 10 years. You can buy them used for pretty cheap, and with plenty of miles left to go on the clock.


YES, The average American goes through more e-waste then a hybrid battery would ever produce even if 100% of the battery was not reused.


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## photodog (Jun 2, 2008)

Not sure which of the TDI's you are thinking but at least for the popular Sportwagen they are a totally different class of vehicle and don't really compare head to head. Prius is a commuter car (think Civic, Corolla) and the TDI Sportwagen more like an alternative to a Minivan/Volvo/Subaru that just happens to get good mileage. We did a week long trip with 2 adults, 2 bikes, 2 kids, a full sized dog and all our winter stuff. It was a bit tight because of the room for the dog but there's no way we could have fit that all in a Prius. 

For the mileage; I've put 20k miles on it in the past 8 months averaging 38.2mpg overall with my bike racks on at all times. I have a daily 35 mile commute with plenty of stop and go and I do lots of road trips for work. Just got back from a 1200 mile freeway drive and averaged 42.9 driving 75mph. 

The big downside is that Diesel is crazy expensive right now, $.50/gallon more. So if mpg is your only concern and you don't care about handling and don't need a ton of space get the Prius. But if you like driving even a little and need some space the TDI Sportwagen is a great option. I don't personally like the TDI Golf at all as you loose all the cargo space and after the difference in fuel price you should have bought the GTI and had a lot more fun! 
And +1 for resale, TDI's really hold their value well.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

Cajun Rich said:


> We are selling a civic to do this. Its a 2006 that only gets 35 MPG 15MPG is a large difference. If I worked in an office all day I would commute to work via bicycle. I am a project manager for a generator company and it requires me to do physical labor all day long. Maybe when I graduate in August I will finally get that job offer I have been dreaming about and I will be able to commute daily.


Rich, if I understand what you're saying, you may not have accurately read what SAL9K posted. He's talking about BUYING something like a 2006 Civic INSTEAD of causing Toyota to build another Prius for you to buy. Doing what SAL and I are recommending is better for the environment and much less expensive too.

The average person drives about 12,000 miles a year. Your Civic gets about 35 mpg. If you buy a Prius and drive it the same way that you drive your Civic, you'll get about 35 mpg too. But for the purpose of discussion, even if we use the overly-optomistic number of 50mpg for the Prius, it breaks down like this:

1) At 35 mpg, the Civic will burn about 343 gallons of gas a year. At $4 a gallon, that's about $1370 in gas a year.

2) At an alleged 50 mpg  , the Prius would burn about 240 gallons of gas a year. At $4 a gallon, that's about $960 a year. If you're bad at math, that would appear to be a savings of a whopping $410 a year ($34 a month).

BUT:

I'm assuming that at 5 years old, the Civic is paid for, which means that you have no lien holder requiring you to pay for full coverage insurance. You're also not paying interest on a loan. A 5 year old Civic has also already taken the bulk of it's depreciation loss- it's not costing you much to continue to own it. The dealer is only going to give you about $8500 for it when you trade it in anyway.

As we pointed out above, a $30,000 Prius will be worth less than half that in about three years. Plus, you'll be paying interest on the car loan, which will make the Prius cost a whole heck of a lot more than $30,000. Plus, you'll have to carry full coverage insurance on it.

In round numbers, trading the Civic in on a new Prius would cost you about $20,000 over three years, in the vain attempt to save $34 a month.


----------



## 475856 (Feb 6, 2010)

pimpbot said:


> Seems to me that the battery is way less of an environmental sin than the thousands upon thousands of gallons of gasoline it saves. I work in oil refineries, and have seen first hand the impact of gasoline production. It ain't pretty... and that is California where things around this stuff are way more strict than in other states.
> 
> So basically, its just like a regular car, plus the NiMH battery and IMA motor. So all of this enviro disaster you state is all on the battery since the IMA motor is pretty simple bundle of copper, steel and alu... and the battery lasts a very long time and is 100% recycled at the end of it's life cycle, is this correct?
> 
> ...


Don't take this personal, but it is amazing to me that so many labels on a lot of products tell us consumers that 'only' in the state of California this xyz product causes cancer or some kind of desease.... 
Either more products are being tested in California or the peeps that live there have different DNA than the rest of the US....Just trowing oil on the fire here...

The Prius is a toxic vehicle despite the hype about how environmentally friendly it seems. It does not get the mileage promised as I never heard anybody say they get what the EPA label says. The battery pack is a bio-hazzard and firefighters are afraid of hybrids on fire because of that large battery pack and the toxic fumes coming from it as well as the explosive nature of that pack. The also get specialized traing dealing with hybrid cars....

They reason they are cheap used is because the battery pack is on it's last legs and needs replacing, costing more $$$ than anyone can justify in savings over a small regular gas/ clean diesel powered car...
The problem in the US is that consumers are being screwed by the EPA, the car companies and the Feds, as there are very limited (NO) choices in small clean diesel powered cars like there are in the rest of the world, I.E Europe....The only reason European car companies build hybrids at all is because the gullable American public thinks these are the Holy Grail...
Sales in Europe of hybrid's pale in comparison to diesel powered cars.
The Chevy Volt is proving to be a dud as well proving that car companies forced by the Feds to build unviable products result in disaster for them....
YMMV


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*The Prius is a toxic vehicle?*



OscarW said:


> Don't take this personal, but it is amazing to me that so many labels on a lot of products tell us consumers that 'only' in the state of California this xyz product causes cancer or some kind of desease....
> Either more products are being tested in California or the peeps that live there have different DNA than the rest of the US....Just trowing oil on the fire here...
> 
> The Prius is a toxic vehicle despite the hype about how environmentally friendly it seems. It does not get the mileage promised as I never heard anybody say they get what the EPA label says. The battery pack is a bio-hazzard and firefighters are afraid of hybrids on fire because of that large battery pack and the toxic fumes coming from it as well as the explosive nature of that pack. The also get specialized traing dealing with hybrid cars....
> ...


Actually it's not toxic no matter how many people wish it was. It's a good solid dependable car that gets the best fuel economy in the USA and lasts a long time. I'm not sure what you mean by the "consumers are being screwed by the EPA". The EPA is not preventing clean diesels from being sold here. I'd love to see more offered for sale here but it's the car companies that choose not to do so.


----------



## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

tl1 said:


> Is there anything more you'd like to tell us on the subject to explain the thinking behind it or is it just another troll? We know the battery issue is a non-issue environmentally and less so as we move to Lithium batteries. The financial picture of owning a hybrid gets better and better as fuel prices rise and they've risen around 50 cents a gallon in just the last few weeks. As more hybrids are produced prices are stable or even dropping on hybrids. We've seen that in the case of the Prius the car's longevity is fact so we have long recycling and disposal cycle when it's finally used up. Where's the catastrophe here?


It ain't trolling if it's true, is it?

In objective environment and financial terms, buying a lightly/moderately used high-quality compact is far, far more environmentally friendly and much more financially prudent than buying a new hybrid. Throwing in the environmental disaster that is heavy metal mining is gravy.


----------



## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

OscarW said:


> Don't take this personal, but it is amazing to me that so many labels on a lot of products tell us consumers that 'only' in the state of California this xyz product causes cancer or some kind of desease....
> Either more products are being tested in California or the peeps that live there have different DNA than the rest of the US....Just trowing oil on the fire here...
> 
> The Prius is a toxic vehicle despite the hype about how environmentally friendly it seems. It does not get the mileage promised as I never heard anybody say they get what the EPA label says. The battery pack is a bio-hazzard and firefighters are afraid of hybrids on fire because of that large battery pack and the toxic fumes coming from it as well as the explosive nature of that pack. The also get specialized traing dealing with hybrid cars....
> ...











Completely ignored the whole thread.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Wow. you bought that...*



OscarW said:


> Don't take this personal, but it is amazing to me that so many labels on a lot of products tell us consumers that 'only' in the state of California this xyz product causes cancer or some kind of desease....
> Either more products are being tested in California or the peeps that live there have different DNA than the rest of the US....Just trowing oil on the fire here...
> 
> The Prius is a toxic vehicle despite the hype about how environmentally friendly it seems. It does not get the mileage promised as I never heard anybody say they get what the EPA label says. The battery pack is a bio-hazzard and firefighters are afraid of hybrids on fire because of that large battery pack and the toxic fumes coming from it as well as the explosive nature of that pack. The also get specialized traing dealing with hybrid cars....
> ...


Hook. Line. Sinker.

Do some more research.



Killroy said:


> Completely ignored the whole thread.


Yeah, seriously. Like the part where there is more Nickel in galvanizing a F150 body than in the battery of the Prius, and the battery is 100% bought back and elements recycled into new batteries, and do not end up in the landfill, not to mention, they aren't being replaced in significant numbers, even though many Priuses are well over the 150k mile mark.

BTW, there are diesels all over the place here in the SF Bay Area. Love 'em too. I would probably go with a diesel given the choice for a car I had to live with day to day. A used Jetta Sportwagen TDI is on my shortlist for my next car. An Audi A4 quattro TDI is my dream car, but will probably be out of my price range until one is 7 or 8 years old with 60k miles on it or more. Only downside is, we aren't going to see manual quattros in this country. I've had enough one wheel drive cars in my life. I'm kinda over it.

The only reason we aren't seeing Volts is because they haven't produced very many yet. I've seen three on the road myself.

Yeah, there is a streak in folks to think they are more in the know because they believe a minority opinion. Global warming, Obama's birth certificate, supply side economics, steel toe boots... the list goes on. I guess it makes them feel smarter than everybody else.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Well why do you say that?*



SAL9000 said:


> It ain't trolling if it's true, is it?
> 
> In objective environment and financial terms, buying a lightly/moderately used high-quality compact is far, far more environmentally friendly and much more financially prudent than buying a new hybrid. Throwing in the environmental disaster that is heavy metal mining is gravy.


Let us decide if your reasoning holds water or not because 99.9% of the same such _sentiment_ has been found to full of holes.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

OscarW: you're just plain wrong on this one. You're inventing things that could've been bad with the Prius, but just haven't been found to be so. They're reliable, recyclable, efficient, and hold their value well.

One thing, pimpbot: galvanization uses zinc- not nickel. 

LOL at the burning car scenerio. Yeah- like a normal burning car doesn't give off dangerous fumes- just hybrids.


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

tl1 said:


> Let us decide if your reasoning holds water or not because 99.9% of the same such _sentiment_ has been found to full of holes.


No. It's that hybrid drivers just hate getting called out. I wouldn't like it either. But that doesn't negate the necessity of it. Diesels are in the same category.

NOTHING beats the objective finanical and environmental benefit of buying a slightly/moderately used high quality gasoline compact.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Called out on what?*



SAL9000 said:


> No. It's that hybrid drivers just hate getting called out. I wouldn't like it either. But that doesn't negate the necessity of it. Diesels are in the same category.
> 
> NOTHING beats the objective finanical and environmental benefit of buying a slightly/moderately used high quality gasoline compact.


Some people hate hybrids for weird, usually politically based, irrational and emotional reasons and have all kinds of half truths and misconceptions in their minds as regards the things. I'm not trying to avoid getting "called out" I'm just wondering what you're calling out on and so far nothing concrete has been related.

As far as having everyone buy used cars, are you advocating that we become like Cuba where no new cars are bought and everyone just drives progressively older gas guzzlers? That would be unfortunate because it's through new car sales and the marketplace that innovation occurs and is making all cars ever more efficient. The 29 MPG 300 bhp Camaro is one example of that. Let's not even get into the loss of well paid manufacturing related jobs. Buying used cars is a great idea but obviously it's a dead-end economically.


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

tl1 said:


> Some people hate hybrids for weird, usually politically based, irrational and emotional reasons and have all kinds of half truths and misconceptions in their minds as regards the things. I'm not trying to avoid getting "called out" I'm just wondering what you're calling out on and so far nothing concrete has been related.


Again, it is irrefutable that it is cheaper to both own and to buy a used compact, and that environment is far better served sidestepping both the horrific heavy metal mining process and the general environmental toll of processing and manufacturing in general (mining of iron, painting, electronics manufacture, etc.).



> As far as having everyone buy used cars, are you advocating that we become like Cuba where no new cars are bought and everyone just drives progressively older gas guzzlers? That would be unfortunate because it's through new car sales and the marketplace that innovation occurs and is making all cars ever more efficient. The 29 MPG 300 bhp Camaro is one example of that. Let's not even get into the loss of well paid manufacturing related jobs. Buying used cars is a great idea but obviously it's a dead-end economically.


I am taking directly to a singular hybrid owner - said owner's (explicit) convictions; environmental and financial; are much better served by buying a used Corolla or Civic.

Hybrid justification under such "greater good" auspices IMO only serves to show how irrational hybrids are; they need that extra "kick" to be validated.

I've never, ever advocated, enacted, or engaged in thought or action with the "loss of jobs" in mind. Other peoples' employment ain't my problem. I recommend that POV to others.

Sure they're safer and better optioned today but the fact remains the MPG of compacts has not materially improved in 25 years ('85 Civic rated 27/33 vs. a '10 Civic rated 26/34.)


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Nothing specific then?*



SAL9000 said:


> Again, it is irrefutable that it is cheaper to both own and to buy a used compact, and that environment is far better served sidestepping both the horrific heavy metal mining process and the general environmental toll of processing and manufacturing in general (mining of iron, painting, electronics manufacture, etc.).


I'm not so sure about that given that most steel used today is recycled steel and steel is the most recycled material in the world. This is also increasingly true of materials used in hybrid batteries which are the major difference between hybrids and conventional cars.



SAL9000 said:


> I am taking directly to a singular hybrid owner - said owner's (explicit) convictions; environmental and financial; are much better served by buying a used Corolla or Civic.
> 
> Hybrid justification under such "greater good" auspices IMO only serves to show how irrational hybrids are; they need that extra "kick" to be validated.
> 
> ...


Correct me if I'm wrong but all _used cars_ start out as_ new cars_ don't they? So individually buying a used car is commendable but if everyone did it used car prices would skyrocket and any environmental "improvements" would require stopping all new car manufacturing correct?. It's just a bizarre nonsensical concept.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Well,it is an interesting point*



tl1 said:


> I'm not so sure about that given that most steel used today is recycled steel and steel is the most recycled material in the world. This is also increasingly true of materials used in hybrid batteries which are the major difference between hybrids and conventional cars.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong but all _used cars_ start out as_ new cars_ don't they? So individually buying a used car is commendable but if everyone did it used car prices would skyrocket and any environmental "improvements" would require stopping all new car manufacturing correct?. It's just a bizarre nonsensical concept.


If new cars were more expensive and more rare, the price of used cars would go up. That would also have the effect of fewer cars ending up at the junk yard over things like a failed transmission. I see lots of cars at my local Pick-and-Pull in perfectly fine cosmetic condition (assuming the bodies are in the same condition) that probably ended up there because of some mechanical failure that made the car 'not worth fixing'.

If used cars were in more demand, folks would be more inclined to repair major issues to keep the old girls on the road.

The biggest environmental impact is really from production of goods of all kinds.... more things for more (overpopulated) people. Good economy usually means more environmental damage. We are using up this planet at an alarming rate.

That said, yeah... recycling a new car for an old polluting beater isn't that horrible, IMO.... especially anything older than 1980 when o2 sensors and catalytic converters weren't mandatory.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

SAL9000 said:


> Again, it is irrefutable that it is cheaper to both own and to buy a used compact, and that environment is far better served sidestepping both the horrific heavy metal mining process and the general environmental toll of processing and manufacturing in general (mining of iron, painting, electronics manufacture, etc.).
> 
> I am taking directly to a singular hybrid owner - said owner's (explicit) convictions; environmental and financial; are much better served by buying a used Corolla or Civic.
> 
> ...


Wow. When you're right, you're right. :thumbsup:


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

tl1 said:


> I'm not so sure about that given that most steel used today is recycled steel and steel is the most recycled material in the world. This is also increasingly true of materials used in hybrid batteries which are the major difference between hybrids and conventional cars.


Try the following:

1) Go buy a new Prius.

2) Take it down to the scrap yard and sell it for scrap (to be recycled).

3) Repeat steps 1 and 2 until the earth is all cleaned up and you've become rich. 



> Correct me if I'm wrong but all _used cars_ start out as_ new cars_ don't they? So individually buying a used car is commendable but if everyone did it used car prices would skyrocket and any environmental "improvements" would require stopping all new car manufacturing correct?. It's just a bizarre nonsensical concept.


Let's use the analogy of food:

We all need food. But if we over-consume, we run the very real risk of some pretty significant negative consequences. Like death, for example. And when it comes to the health of the environment and your personal finances, you need to understand that financing a $30,000 car to try to save $34 a month in gas does about the same thing a person's personal finances as dumping their old hoopty into a landfill and raping the environment for Prius batteries does for the environment.

There's nothing wrong with making new cars better than old cars. And there will always be a need for SOME new cars. But we buy WAY more new cars than we need, and we dump WAY more old cars into landfills than we should.

And I gotta say, that building and/or buying new cars because some illiterate morbidly obese unwashed mouth-breathing alcoholic fifth-generation UAW union member thinks he has a God-given right to get paid $50 an hour tossing a radio antenna mast into the trunk of 5 out of every 6 vehicles that pass his station on the assembly line, is just plain stupid. A trained monkey can do that.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

To the average consumer, the truth is not as exciting as "that new car smell", or as sexually stimulating as having a car salesman blow smoke up your butt all afternoon: 

The truth is, that the cheapest car to buy, and the one that is the best for the environment, is probably the car that you already own.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Plenty of used Prius out there. 

The TDI, not so much. Don't get a 2006 or older, because the emissions are horrible. Diesels got by easy then because they were not required to meet the same emissions standard as gas burners.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Dumping old cars in landfills*



RIS said:


> Try the following:
> 
> 1) Go buy a new Prius.
> 
> ...


...seems to be an ongoing theme with you but where is this done in actual practice? Old cars are recycled for their valuable steel content and for their other metals and other materials. This is done in all but the most remote of locations that don't have enough cars and infrastructure to do this.



RIS said:


> Let's use the analogy of food:
> 
> We all need food. But if we over-consume, we run the very real risk of some pretty significant negative consequences. Like death, for example. And when it comes to the health of the environment and your personal finances, you need to understand that financing a $30,000 car to try to save $34 a month in gas does about the same thing a person's personal finances as dumping their old hoopty into a landfill and raping the environment for Prius batteries does for the environment.


Again with the poor landfills.  We're seriously over consuming oil in the USA now when we're the third largest producer on Earth behind Saudi Arabia and Russia yet we still need to import 3/4 of our oil needs for transport fuel. And we're heading for some pretty serious consequences such as a major economic depression, vastly increased food and consumer goods prices and so on if our Middle-East oil supply gets turned off and prices rise even more. Even using the Strategic Oil Reserve like is being talked about this very minute won't do much because of the vastness of our incredible demand for oil.



RIS said:


> There's nothing wrong with making new cars better than old cars. And there will always be a need for SOME new cars. But we buy WAY more new cars than we need, and we dump WAY more old cars into landfills than we should.
> 
> And I gotta say, that building and/or buying new cars because some illiterate morbidly obese unwashed mouth-breathing alcoholic fifth-generation UAW union member thinks he has a God-given right to get paid $50 an hour tossing a radio antenna mast into the trunk of 5 out of every 6 vehicles that pass his station on the assembly line, is just plain stupid. A trained monkey can do that.


More ignorant prejudice comes out: a righteous old-timey UAW hate rant. Big surprise. The Prius and VW TDI cars (subject of this thread) however are not built by UAW members. I'd like to see cars built to last longer but since they generally last 15-20 years now I'm not sure there's a need because so many technological improvements will have been made in that time period it is probably better to build another more modern one from recycled materials using ever more efficient manufacturing processes. I would love to see industries springing up that modify old cars into hybrids or electrics though.


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Yeah it would be like Cuba*



pimpbot said:


> If new cars were more expensive and more rare, the price of used cars would go up. That would also have the effect of fewer cars ending up at the junk yard over things like a failed transmission. I see lots of cars at my local Pick-and-Pull in perfectly fine cosmetic condition (assuming the bodies are in the same condition) that probably ended up there because of some mechanical failure that made the car 'not worth fixing'.
> 
> If used cars were in more demand, folks would be more inclined to repair major issues to keep the old girls on the road.
> 
> ...


...just with newer cars. Not something I'd be into but anything that can be done to keep older cars with good fuel economy going would probably be a good thing.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

I'm late to the party, but will throw in my two cents. I have a bias towards diesel's, I like the highway economy, torque, and driver involvement. That said, I wouldn't touch a VW product. The TDI's are a great engine, everything else in the car is junk. I have had german cars for 20+ years and currently have an Audi A6 that came with my girlfriend. It is the 2.8, which was considered the most reliable. With a 120k on it, I won't take it out of town. If it isn't a suspension component wearing out, it is an electrical problem, or some minor engine problem, or who knows what. We call it the F***ing Audi. Servicing the thing is a nightmare, access to any components is very difficult. My mechanic just cringes when he has to touch the car. 

I don't like the Pious and would never own one, but reliability is far better, they last longer, and in town get better mileage than the TDI. They drive like an appliance with no character, but they always start. 

We are dumping the Audi and keeping my 20 year old BMW 535i. With 210k miles on it, it is far more solid and reliable than the much newer and lower mileage Audi. In the past two years, I have spent less than $1000 on maintenance and repairs on the BMW. Same reason I keep driving my 1996 Toyota Landcruiser, dismal gas mileage, but in the past 8 years and 100k miles (210k on the clock) the only non maintenance items I have replaced are the alternator and radiator.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Hybrid sales up 39% in February*

Oh woe is me! 



> Toyota Prius leads the pack
> 
> It's that time again: February 2011 sales have been tallied and *hybrid vehicles posted gains of 39 percent compared to the same month last year.* Overall, sales of hybrid models hit 23,263 units in February, accounting for 2.35 percent of the 989,808 vehicles sold in the U.S. last month.
> 
> ...


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

tl1 said:


> I'm not so sure about that given that most steel used today is recycled steel and steel is the most recycled material in the world. This is also increasingly true of materials used in hybrid batteries which are the major difference between hybrids and conventional cars.


Most cars aren't recycled though. Plus, there is plenty of energy and pollution generated in recycling steel - from the transportation of the waste, to the energy for melting and segregation of metals, to the toxic byproducts of said.



> Correct me if I'm wrong but all _used cars_ start out as_ new cars_ don't they? So individually buying a used car is commendable but if everyone did it used car prices would skyrocket and any environmental "improvements" would require stopping all new car manufacturing correct?. It's just a bizarre nonsensical concept.


First, individual action is the only action upon which to judge. Plus, the individual should act only in the individual's best interest. For example, no individual should ever think, "I should buy a new car so that there are used cars."

Second, hybrids are ~2% of the market so if hybrid owners bought gasoline cars the balance you note is not possible. It should also be noted a _new_ compact is a wash environmentally but an advantage financially (meaning, a car doesn't have to be used to better a hybrid).

Lastly, it should be noted the Prius has ~80% of the hybrid market and we all know why it does - because it's a Toyota and it's a hybrid-only model. It exists solely as an advertisement for the owner. Hybrids just as effective have been footnotes if not absolute sales bombs because they were neither Toyotas nor standalone hybrid models - Civic hybrid, Fusion hybrid, Altima hybrid, et al.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*You're getting farther out SAL*



SAL9000 said:


> Most cars aren't recycled though. Plus, there is plenty of energy and pollution generated in recycling steel - from the transportation of the waste, to the energy for melting and segregation of metals, to the toxic byproducts of said.


95% way back in 2005 isn't _most_ cars? 6 years later with the price of steel rising it has to be even higher. While steel making is energy intensive, it's much more energy efficient to mine old cars than to mine and process iron ore and the process of making steel itself uses 45% less energy that it did two decades ago. No facts will make any difference to you though apparently as it appears stuck for all time in your head that manufacturing a car uses more oil and causes more environmental destruction than driving a car for hundreds of thousands of miles even though facts I've read don't support that notion and you've certainly offered up none to support the idea.



> Recycling metal uses about 74 percent less energy than making new steel, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. Recycled steel is cheaper as well, since new ore doesn't have to be mined to produce it. All steel produced today has at least 25 percent recycled steel in it, and some products are made entirely from recycled steel. So in addition to the economic and environmental benefits, recycling cars is a vital link in the world's industrial infrastructure. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-crusher4.htm





SAL9000 said:


> First, individual action is the only action upon which to judge. Plus, the individual should act only in the individual's best interest. For example, no individual should ever think, "I should buy a new car so that there are used cars."
> 
> Second, hybrids are ~2% of the market so if hybrid owners bought gasoline cars the balance you note is not possible. It should also be noted a _new_ compact is a wash environmentally but an advantage financially (meaning, a car doesn't have to be used to better a hybrid).
> 
> Lastly, it should be noted the Prius has ~80% of the hybrid market *and we all know why it does - because it's a Toyota and it's a hybrid-only model. It exists solely as an advertisement for the owner.* Hybrids just as effective have been footnotes if not absolute sales bombs because they were neither Toyotas nor standalone hybrid models - Civic hybrid, Fusion hybrid, Altima hybrid, et al.


Sorry to disillusion you but when I bought a Prius I didn't buy it as a self-advertisement. I bought it because I really liked the car and for energy efficient transportation in a sprawling metropolitan area whose very layout itself is energy inefficient. Consumer preference and self defense from bad urban design is very far indeed from self promotion. I love the Altima hybrid btw, rented one for a week and it's great., It and the Fusion hybrid and other hybrids have sales figures that are climbing every month much the chagrin of grumpy folks with attitudinal axes to grind based on fantastic lies and half-truths they've eagerly swallowed hook, line and sinker because they align with their predetermined notions.


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

tl1 said:


> 95% way back in 2005 isn't _most_ cars? 6 years later with the price of steel rising it has to be even higher. While steel making is energy intensive, it's much more energy efficient to mine old cars than to mine and process iron ore and the process of making steel itself uses 45% less energy that it did two decades ago. No facts will make any difference to you though apparently as it appears stuck for all time in your head that manufacturing a car uses more oil and causes more environmental destruction than driving a car for hundreds of thousands of miles even though facts I've read don't support that notion and you've certainly offered up none to support the idea.


Per that article, uh, that's, "...95 percent of cars are at least _partially _recycled." "Partially" means anything from the battery to the tires to who knows what else. Americans buy 12-17MM cars a year; there isn't the infrastructure in the US to recycle many/majority/most cars simply because the profit motive isn't there.

I would challenge the theory that recycled steel is more "energy efficient." If it were, steel makers that supply automakers would be in the business of providing predominantly recycled steel. They recycle to some extent, but most of the steel used in cars is virgin. A bit of Googling says ~65-75% of the average car is virgin steel.

So why is this? All "steel" is not the same, in fact it's pretty much all different. The composition of steel changes for each application and customer; Ford vs. Chevy, cars. vs. washing machines, et al. This means that recycled steel has to properly broken into its constituents before it can be reprocesses to meet the customer's needs. One simply does not melt down an F-150 body and sell it to GM to make a Camaro.



> Sorry to disillusion you but when I bought a Prius I didn't buy it as a self-advertisement. I bought it because I really liked the car and for energy efficient transportation in a sprawling metropolitan area whose very layout itself is energy inefficient. Consumer preference and self defense from bad urban design is very far indeed from self promotion. I love the Altima hybrid btw, rented one for a week and it's great., It and the Fusion hybrid and other hybrids have sales figures that are climbing every month much the chagrin of grumpy folks with attitudinal axes to grind based on fantastic lies and half-truths they've eagerly swallowed hook, line and sinker because they align with their predetermined notions.


Then why not buy a Civic/Fusion/Altima hybrid? You likely could have gotten a better $$$ deal given they don't really sell, and by all accounts they're just as good as the Prius and generally drive better. Well, we know the answer - those cars don't advertise "environmentalism" because they look identical to their gasoline-only versions.

I'm sorry to lay things out in such stark terms, but these facts are stubborn things. One does both the environment and one's pocketbook a bigger favor if one simply buys a used Civic or Corolla. But of course that's not a very external thing either.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

SAL9000 said:


> Most cars aren't recycled though. Plus, there is plenty of energy and pollution generated in recycling steel - from the transportation of the waste, to the energy for melting and segregation of metals, to the toxic byproducts of said.
> 
> First, individual action is the only action upon which to judge. Plus, the individual should act only in the individual's best interest. For example, no individual should ever think, "I should buy a new car so that there are used cars."
> 
> ...


Excellent points, all.

Toyota's own marketing research indicates that the #1 reason, far and away, that Prius owners purchased their cars, is the "message" that it communicates about them to other people who see them in it.

It sure ain't because it makes good financial sense, because anyone with third grade math skills can see that it makes about as much financial sense as flushing $100 bills down a toilet.

And it also isn't about the environment, as has been amply demonstrated.

At best, it's a misguided "feel good" gesture made by those with limited cognitive functions, and at worst, it is a vain attempt to display the image of superiority over others.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

The reason most steel products aren't made from 100% recycled steel is because 1) not all steel is recycled (try recycling rebar out of concrete) and 2) Global population is still growing.

Until all steel is 100% recycled (never) and population stops growing, you'll need virgin steel.

In the mean time, steel mills just dump in ~25% scrap-steel straigt into the furnace with the iron ore. It makes sense to put an even amount of your scrap into each batch because it eases process control. Since the recycled steel is already un-oxidized, unlike the ore, it only takes about 1/4 of the energy to process as iron processed from ore. I'm sure they'd love to dump 100% scrap into the furnace; there simply isn't enough of it though.

Regarding "partially recycled". While cars aren't 100% recycled, the steel generally is. When you junk a car, the salvage yard picks it over for in-demand or rebuildable parts and drains all the fluids. Besides useable parts, high-value recyclables like batteries and catalytic converters are stripped off here. Then it goes to the crusher, and, eventually, a shredder. Magnetic processes are used to seperate the ferrous and non-ferrous metals, which are sent off to recycling. After all the metal is removed, you're still left with about 1/4 to 1/3 of the vehicle weight in trash. This is a mish-mash of rubber, plastic, foam, carpet, cloth, silicon, etc. This is what winds up in the landfill as it's not economically feasible to sort out all of these varied, low-scrap-value materials. This is why almost all cars are "partially recycled" and almost no cars are completely recycled.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Wow guy take a breath*



SAL9000 said:


> Per that article, uh, that's, "...95 percent of cars are at least _partially _recycled." "Partially" means anything from the battery to the tires to who knows what else. Americans buy 12-17MM cars a year; there isn't the infrastructure in the US to recycle many/majority/most cars simply because the profit motive isn't there.
> 
> I would challenge the theory that recycled steel is more "energy efficient." If it were, steel makers that supply automakers would be in the business of providing predominantly recycled steel. They recycle to some extent, but most of the steel used in cars is virgin. A bit of Googling says ~65-75% of the average car is virgin steel.
> 
> So why is this? All "steel" is not the same, in fact it's pretty much all different. The composition of steel changes for each application and customer; Ford vs. Chevy, cars. vs. washing machines, et al. This means that recycled steel has to properly broken into its constituents before it can be reprocesses to meet the customer's needs. One simply does not melt down an F-150 body and sell it to GM to make a Camaro.


And? You keep talking about the manufacturing processes when it's been shown over and over again that the amount of oil used over the lifetime of a car is what determines a car's environmental impact. If memory serves it's something around a 10:1 ratio for a smaller IC car in energy used driving the car over its life versus energy used in manufacturing and transporting it for sale. BTW steel does not lose durability or quality through the recycling process. Even if some "virgin" raw materials are mixed in during manufacturing, starting with recycled steel makes the process less expensive and more environmentally friendly.



SAL9000 said:


> Then why not buy a Civic/Fusion/Altima hybrid? You likely could have gotten a better $$$ deal given they don't really sell, and by all accounts they're just as good as the Prius and generally drive better. Well, we know the answer - those cars don't advertise "environmentalism" because they look identical to their gasoline-only versions.


I love the Fusion hybrid too but they cost well over $30,000 when optioned up. I like the cut of the Lexus CT Hybrid's jib too but it's $35,000 when you modestly equip it. With all the nut cakes out there baggin' on the Prius I'd probably prefer to be_ less noticed_. As much as I was ignorant of "making a statement" or some such horsesh|t when I bought a Prius I also really had no idea that raising the ire of every ignorant Joe the Plumber type d0uchbag out there was part of the bargain. I guess one should figure that into your buying decisions too. It comes standard with a bunch of irrational nut-baggers on your ass about it. 

For the foreseeable future I'll continue to drive my comfortable, thrifty Prius instead of buying a new car though. My daughter graduates college next year and the Prius with no payments and maybe 15 more years of reliable use left in it may make a nice graduation present. After that I may be shopping for a new or used hybrid or diesel or maybe even something like a new gen. Ford Focus that gets 40 MPG.



SAL9000 said:


> I'm sorry to lay things out in such stark terms, but these facts are stubborn things. One does both the environment and one's pocketbook a bigger favor if one simply buys a used Civic or Corolla. But of course that's not a very external thing either.


You haven really put forth any verifiable facts just personal opinions and cranky ones at that.


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## jeff_p (Mar 20, 2006)

tl1 said:


> IWith all the nut cakes out there baggin' on the Prius I'd probably prefer to be_ less noticed_. As much as I was ignorant of "making a statement" or some such horsesh|t when I bought a Prius I also really had no idea that raising the ire of every ignorant Joe the Plumber type d0uchbag out there was part of the bargain. I guess one should figure that into your buying decisions too. It comes standard with a bunch of irrational nut-baggers on your ass about it.


100% Agree, it's amazing the reactions that the Prius brings out in some people. Just want to throw out some real world data incase the OP hasn't made his decision yet.

Bought my 2005 Prius used two years ago with 60,000 miles on it for $12,000, around the same price as a comparable Corolla or Civic at the time. I put 50,000 miles on the car since I've owned it and haven't spent one cent on repairs. Gas mileage has been about 48mpg during summer and 43 during the winter, and thats while driving normally. One of the most versatile cars I've ever owned, fits 4 people comfortably, plus my 29er fits in the back with the seats down as long as the front tire is removed. what's not to love?


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

> what's not to love?


The performance and driving experience...maybe the interior.

From a practical standpoint though they're fantastic appliance-cars. Edmunds came out with an article the other day saying the break-even time is pretty quick compared to a non-hybrid Camry, which has similar interior room (although the Prius falls sort of between the Corolla and Camry)


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## Breitness24 (May 7, 2010)

well Im in the market for a car. Was spot on for an XB but im starting to hate it since my mom is away im car sitting. In the past month Ive test drove the vw sportwagon and just this sunday the prius. The VW is a nice car. coming in at 27 its a little more I want to spend. The golf TDI is at 25. Then the prius 3 at 23 k. its sucks balls to drive..but the fact that ill get 40-50mpg is worth it to me. cheapest of the 3 and was quite roomy for what I want. Im just cheap not looking to save the world..to recycle to be green or whatever you guys think people buy this car for. I just want my money to go far.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

jeff_p said:


> 100% Agree, it's amazing the reactions that the Prius brings out in some people. Just want to throw out some real world data incase the OP hasn't made his decision yet.
> 
> Bought my 2005 Prius used two years ago with 60,000 miles on it for $12,000, around the same price as a comparable Corolla or Civic at the time. I put 50,000 miles on the car since I've owned it and haven't spent one cent on repairs. Gas mileage has been about 48mpg during summer and 43 during the winter, and thats while driving normally. One of the most versatile cars I've ever owned, fits 4 people comfortably, plus my 29er fits in the back with the seats down as long as the front tire is removed. what's not to love?


Well, let's use some real world data to see if your story will fly:

We don't have access to used car values from two years ago, but a 2007 Prius will set you back about $16,000, and a 2007 Civic will set you back about $12,000. But since you drive more than twice as much as the average person, maybe the fuel mileage will make up the difference.

50,000 miles at 45 mpg for the Prius is 1111 gallons of gas, and at $4 a gallon, that's $4,444 in gas.

50,000 miles at 36 mpg for a Civis is 1388 gallons of gas, and at $4 a gallon, that's $5,555 in gas.

So even with your unusual driving pattern, you'd be spending an additional $4,000 to save $1,111 in gas. Plus, your Prius battery warranty is almost up.


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

Hey there tl1, even given thought why you've devolved things into insults and name calling?


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

Maybe a more silly comparison will communicate reality to the Prius fan club:

The 305 horsepower 2012 Ford Mustang lists for $22,145 and is advertised at 31 highway mpg.

The one hamster-power 3rd generation Toyota Prius lists for $23,050 and is advertised at 45 highway mpg.

12,000 miles at 31 mpg for the Mustang is 387 gallons of gas. At $4 a gallon, that's $1548.
12,000 miles at 45 mpg for the Prius is 267 gallons of gas. At $4 a gallon, that's $1,067.

So IF you could actually buy a Prius for $23K (you can't), and IF the Prius actually got 45 mpg (unlikely at best), you'd still be spending $905 more for the Prius, to save $481 in gas. That's about a 50% return on investment.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

How about a real hillbilly gas guzzler?

The 18 mpg 2011 Chevrolet Silverado W/T full-sized pickup can be had for about $17,000. 12,000 miles at 18 mpg is a whopping 667 gallons of gas. At $4 a gallon, that's $2,667, or $1,600 more than a Prius would allegedly burn covering the same distance. 

So again, even if you could actually buy a Prius for $23K, and even IF the Prius actually got 45 mpg, you'd be spending $5,000 extra on the Prius to save $1,600 in gas..


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## jeff_p (Mar 20, 2006)

*actually you could*



RIS said:


> So IF you could actually buy a Prius for $23K (you can't), and IF the Prius actually got 45 mpg (unlikely at best


Look at Toyota's website, sticker price on the Prius is listed at $23,050 and we all know that nobody pays sticker. As mentioned above, my second generation Prius easily averaged 45mpg driving normally over the past 50,000 miles. From everything I heard and read, the generation 3 version is about 5mpg better.


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## cruzcontrol (Dec 13, 2010)

JDM said:


> I had a TDI and loved it. I keep buying VWs because I like them, but I wouldn't actually recommend them to anyone.
> 
> Is you goal to save money, save the planet, or make a political statement? Driving 10k per year you'll only save ~$200 per year going from 35MPG to 45MPG at $3/gal. It'll take you 25 years to pay back the $5k premium you pay for the TDI or the prius over a corolla.


I 2nd that

I don't know if they are made in mexico (or if that makes a difference) like my wifes, butt he interior will fall apart after 4 years. And badly. All fabric is coming up insulaton from the AC ducts falling out and coming throught the vents, now it takes 40 min of driving to get cool air. Auto trunk open and pass side window, arm rest.... Should I continue... BTW This car was garage kept and had less than10k miles a year in a moderate climate

With that said I also dislike the prius. you might want to open up the options a little.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*For example?*



SAL9000 said:


> Hey there tl1, even given thought why you've devolved things into insults and name calling?


Unless you're insulted by the mention of the ignorant Joe the Unlicensed Plumber type of d0uchbags ready to trash Prius cars, I didn't see any "insults" or name calling.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Except in reality...*



RIS said:


> Maybe a more silly comparison will communicate reality to the Prius fan club:
> 
> The 305 horsepower 2012 Ford Mustang lists for $22,145 and is advertised at 31 highway mpg.
> 
> ...


...the Mustang has a 23 MPG *combined* rating while the Prius has a 50 MPG *combined* rating or over twice as good. Details like this make a difference when gasoline is 4 or 5 dollars per gallon.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*I'm always amazed that there are still people*



 RIS said:


> How about a real hillbilly gas guzzler?
> 
> The 18 mpg 2011 Chevrolet Silverado W/T full-sized pickup can be had for about $17,000. 12,000 miles at 18 mpg is a whopping 667 gallons of gas. At $4 a gallon, that's $2,667, or $1,600 more than a Prius would allegedly burn covering the same distance.
> 
> So again, even if you could actually buy a Prius for $23K, and even IF the Prius actually got 45 mpg, you'd be spending $5,000 extra on the Prius to save $1,600 in gas..


...trying to make a strictly short term dollars and cents proposition of buying a car as if that is the only issue at hand. Clearly the more foreign oil that is used the worse it is for our security, our economy and our environment. But I guess it also explains the popularity of Wal-Mart too.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

Okay, let's try another one.

A 3/4 ton 4-wheel drive Chevrolet Suburban that I modified into a trail rig. I rebuilt the automatic transmission and both drive axles, had new driveshafts fabricated, rebuilt the suspension and steering, installed new springs, shocks, brakes, tires, and wheels, a new radiator, and some other stuff. It had a 6" lift kit, 35" mud tires, 4.88 gears, lockers in both diffs, a 6.2 liter V8 engine exhaling through dual 2-1/2"Flowmaster mufflers, and carried fabricated steel bumpers (for pushing down trees) that might as well have been made out of railroad track, a 9000 pound winch, dual batterys, two full-sized (35") spare tires, a spare rear drive shaft, spare fluids, belts, and hoses, shovel, axe, self-recovery kit, tool box, etc, etc, etc. It weighed 7250 pounds. I purchased and built it for about $5,000. The pics are in my photo album.

Towing a trailer, with two full-sized road motorcycles and a week's worth of camping gear, it got 20 mpg on the highway. With a 40 gallon fuel tank, we only fueled up every few states (800 miles) on our way to Monterey California.

12,000 miles at 20 mpg is 1000 gallons of fuel. At $4 a gallon, that's $4,000 a year.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Fantastic, fiscal analysis, but the Civic still makes more smog and imports more oil, so if a buyer wants to still drive, but pollute less, and import less oil, that buyer is going to get a Prius. Plus, the Prius hatch is very handy, you would need a Civic Wagon if space important.

The Prius is a political statement and people have a lot of issues with politics. Since Nixon, each president (Even Bush and Regan) has been trying to urge energy independence, but as soon as Oil drops $ consumers buy SUVs and move out to track homes in the valley.

By the way, its funny how MPG of the Civic seems inflated, and the Prius is deflated. Use EPA combined or what is on fueleconomy.gov (29 & 46 MPG) from car owners and remember that if you you speed MPG will go down. It's science.

I would rather people own a older car, but ride their bike and the result is less barrels of oil. Yet, people are going to own new cars, because that is what they want. So, the new vs. old argument is apples to oranges.



RIS said:


> Well, let's use some real world data to see if your story will fly:
> 
> We don't have access to used car values from two years ago, but a 2007 Prius will set you back about $16,000, and a 2007 Civic will set you back about $12,000. But since you drive more than twice as much as the average person, maybe the fuel mileage will make up the difference.
> 
> ...


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

tl1 said:


> ...the Mustang has a 23 MPG *combined* rating while the Prius has a 50 MPG *combined* rating or over twice as good. Details like this make a difference when gasoline is 4 or 5 dollars per gallon.
> 
> http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm


Yup, RIS really cherry picks his stats. He can leave now since he is making false statements.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

tl1 said:


> ...trying to make a strictly short term dollars and cents proposition of buying a car as if that is the only issue at hand. Clearly the more foreign oil that is used the worse it is for our security, our economy and our environment. But I guess it also explains the popularity of Wal-Mart too.


Your Prius runs on fuel from Obama's war for oil. If this is such a big deal to you, sell all your cars and bicycle everywhere.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*I'd rather be somewhat rational*



RIS said:


> Your Prius runs on fuel from Obama's war for oil. If this is such a big deal to you, sell all your cars and bicycle everywhere.


...and consistently lower my oil usage over time. Thanks for the suggestions though.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*I keep waiting foir something honest*



Killroy said:


> Yup, RIS really cherry picks his stats. He can leave now since he is making false statements.


...to come from his direction considering he is a law enforcement officer (according to him, not me) but it may be a lost cause.


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## jeff_p (Mar 20, 2006)

RIS said:


> Well, let's use some real world data to see if your story will fly:
> 
> We don't have access to used car values from two years ago, but a 2007 Prius will set you back about $16,000, and a 2007 Civic will set you back about $12,000. But since you drive more than twice as much as the average person, maybe the fuel mileage will make up the difference.
> 
> ...


Well, I had a Civic before and while it was a good car, I was hard pressed to average 30mpg. Also, I tend to keep my cars until they have about 200,000 miles. So since I bought my car with 60,000 we'll use 140,000 as the number.

140,000 miles @ 45mpg for the Prius is 3111. At $4/gal that's $12,444.
140,000 miles @ 30mpg for the Civic is 4666. At $4/gal that's $18,666.

There are also other things to factor in such as the larger size and more options of the Prius, plus it's nice to have the hatchback for hauling stuff. The warranty on the battery is already up since it's 8years or 100,000 miles. I'm not worried though, the battery isn't known to be something to die right out of warranty, and if it does I buy a battery from a wrecked car for $400 - $500and install it myself, no biggie.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*More Prius battery repair info*



jeff_p said:


> Well, I had a Civic before and while it was a good car, I was hard pressed to average 30mpg. Also, I tend to keep my cars until they have about 200,000 miles. So since I bought my car with 60,000 we'll use 140,000 as the number.
> 
> 140,000 miles @ 45mpg for the Prius is 3111. At $4/gal that's $12,444.
> 140,000 miles @ 30mpg for the Civic is 4666. At $4/gal that's $18,666.
> ...


Really good info jeff. I read this recently about repairing the batteries and had been unaware of this. The hybrid battery has 28 separate battery modules in it. It's possible to repair just one of those modules to recondition the entire hybrid battery assembly because a battery problem will almost always be in just one of the modules. The article says Toyota will do this for $750 but hopefully free enterprise will also spawn other companies that can competently do this work for less money.



> Batteries in a Toyota Prius typically last a long time. As we mentioned on the previous page, the company guarantees them for the life of the car, and drivers have documented at least two 2001 Toyota Prius models, the earliest Prius model to hit North American roads, lasting for more than 200,000 miles (321,869 kilometers) without a battery pack replacement. That's more than twice the manufacturer's warranty period [source: HybridExperience.com].
> 
> In the rare case that a driver encounters a problem with the battery pack before the hybrid reaches 10 years or 100,000 miles (160,934 kilometers), Toyota will replace the pack with a brand-new one. Instead of scrapping the old pack, however, they hang on to it. This is because battery packs built for the Prius consist of 28 separate modules, and any problem in a battery pack is most likely due to one of those modules, not all of them.
> 
> ...


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

tl1 said:


> ...the Mustang has a 23 MPG *combined* rating while the Prius has a 50 MPG *combined* rating or over twice as good. Details like this make a difference when gasoline is 4 or 5 dollars per gallon.
> 
> http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm


Go back and read his post. He's driven 50,000 miles in two years. That's more than twice as much as the average person does. Unless he has a paper route, that's pretty much all highway driving, hence the highway mpg numbers.


----------



## jeff_p (Mar 20, 2006)

*Good point...*



RIS said:


> Go back and read his post. He's driven 50,000 miles in two years. That's more than twice as much as the average person does. Unless he has a paper route, that's pretty much all highway driving, hence the highway mpg numbers.


The Prius' gas mileage is worse on the highway since it running solely on IC. If I eliminated the highway driving part of my commute my mileage would be about 50 mpg.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Sorta*



jeff_p said:


> The Prius' gas mileage is worse on the highway since it running solely on IC. If I eliminated the highway driving part of my commute my mileage would be about 50 mpg.


It runs in IC, except when loads are super low, like a slight downhill, then it runs on just the electric. When you floor it to pass, it uses the IC with electric boost.

I would say it primarily runs on IC at freeway speed.

You're right, tho. It doesn't get as good mileage at freeway speed as it does in town. Still gets way better mileage than a IC only car both in town and on the freeway.

Point is, it still takes advantage of the small efficient Atkinson Cycle IC engine with super high compression that draws hardly any vacuum at cruising speed, and has enough power to keep speed. When it needs the extra power, it kicks in the electric.

Part of what makes big engines suck so much gas even if you aren't using all that power is that they waste a lot of energy drawing a big manifold vacuum. Pumping losses. Small engines running wide open throttle make the same power at cruising speed with much less pumping loss.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Talk about...*



RIS said:


> Your Prius runs on fuel from Obama's war for oil. If this is such a big deal to you, sell all your cars and bicycle everywhere.


.. a cherry picked fact.

Yeah, Obama's guilty of continuing Bushie's little oil war, but I see you left that second part out.

Oh, and in case you didn't notice, we've mostly pulled out of Iraq, and it's the righties who are pushing to prop up the iron fisted dictators who are sitting on the mountains of oil lining their own pockets and letting their people live like peasants. The righties would rather see cheap oil and stable profits than democracy, and much of our country's GDP going to the military operations to support the oil supplies instead of actually developing true prosperity here.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Prius for cheapskates*



Breitness24 said:


> Then the prius 3 at 23 k. its sucks balls to drive..but the fact that ill get 40-50mpg is worth it to me. cheapest of the 3 and was quite roomy for what I want. Im just cheap not looking to save the world..to recycle to be green or whatever you guys think people buy this car for. I just want my money to go far.


I think anyone considering a Prius because they're just cheap will be well served by it because they're extremely economical to operate, they last a long time without many problems and the resale value is excellent. It's really too bad the $3150 hybrid tax credit is no longer in effect for the Toyota Prius as that would pretty much erase the cost premium for buying the high MPG hybrid car and because it's seriously in the nation's interest to use less oil. The Toyota lots I drive past are full of the cars so you can probably get one for far below retail cost too. The ultimate in value for the dollar will be a used one though.


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

tl1 said:


> Unless you're insulted by the mention of the ignorant Joe the Unlicensed Plumber type of d0uchbags ready to trash Prius cars, I didn't see any "insults" or name calling.


Fail; and an implicit admission of defeat. I graciously accept.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Prius is on the best used car list. I dont see Jetta. VW Passat is on the worst.

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1758/best-and-worst-used-cars/


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

I'm sure that there are those for whom the Prius circle-jerk is stimulating, but I spent a few glorious hours today in a vastly superior sexual experience, burning dead dinosaurs with my humble little 40 mpg commuter on one of the finest roads on the planet. 

There is not much in life that is better than a fine pair of Italian shoes (in this case, a fresh set of Pirelli Supercorsa Pro tires). Finely sorted Swedish rear suspension from the Ohlins race shop (originally built for Graves Motorsports Yamaha factory Superstock racing program) and EBC GFA "kit" race front brake pads made me feel like all I needed was a cape and a mask. And a new AFAM/DID lightweight 520 drive kit and a sparkling clear Hotbodies Racing windscreen just added to the experience.

Made my leathers get tight.


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

pimpbot said:


> .. a cherry picked fact.
> 
> Yeah, Obama's guilty of continuing Bushie's little oil war, but I see you left that second part out.
> 
> Oh, and in case you didn't notice, we've mostly pulled out of Iraq, and it's the righties who are pushing to prop up the iron fisted dictators who are sitting on the mountains of oil lining their own pockets and letting their people live like peasants. The righties would rather see cheap oil and stable profits than democracy, and much of our country's GDP going to the military operations to support the oil supplies instead of actually developing true prosperity here.


How else am I to keep putting relatively cheap gas in my 11 mpg SUV? Somebody's gotta do the dirty work.


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## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

jeff_p said:


> Well, I had a Civic before and while it was a good car, I was hard pressed to average 30mpg. Also, I tend to keep my cars until they have about 200,000 miles. So since I bought my car with 60,000 we'll use 140,000 as the number.
> 
> 140,000 miles @ 45mpg for the Prius is 3111. At $4/gal that's $12,444.
> 140,000 miles @ 30mpg for the Civic is 4666. At $4/gal that's $18,666.
> ...


Any modern Civic that averages 30 mpg has something very wrong or is being driven by like a race car. Said Prius driven under such conditions would get WAY less than 45 MPG.

But even in your skewed example, using a new Civic LX (MSRP $16k) vs. a new Prius (MSRP $23k), you would need a bit more than 140k miles to break even. That is an average ownership time of 9 years, and the majority of new car owners don't keep cars that long.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*40 Mpg?*



RIS said:


> I'm sure that there are those for whom the Prius circle-jerk is stimulating, but I spent a few glorious hours today in a vastly superior sexual experience, burning dead dinosaurs with my humble little 40 mpg commuter on one of the finest roads on the planet.
> 
> There is not much in life that is better than a fine pair of Italian shoes (in this case, a fresh set of Pirelli Supercorsa Pro tires). Finely sorted Swedish rear suspension from the Ohlins race shop (originally built for Graves Motorsports Yamaha factory Superstock racing program) and EBC GFA "kit" race front brake pads made me feel like all I needed was a cape and a mask. And a new AFAM/DID lightweight 520 drive kit and a sparkling clear Hotbodies Racing windscreen just added to the experience.
> 
> Made my leathers get tight.


You must have felt like you were out slumming with the Prius pinkos getting such good fuel economy.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*You're clearly not making sense*

As such any future dialogue with you would be pointless.


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## jeff_p (Mar 20, 2006)

*Thanks for pointing that out ....*



pimpbot said:


> It runs in IC, except when loads are super low, like a slight downhill, then it runs on just the electric. When you floor it to pass, it uses the IC with electric boost.
> 
> I would say it primarily runs on IC at freeway speed.
> 
> ...


Yeah I meant to say mostly, not solely. Other factors that contribute to the Prius' good gas mileage are the low drag coefficient (0.26) and light wheels (15") coupled with low rolling resistance tires. A somewhat popular mod for the Prius is to relace the wheels and tires with 17"ers from a Scion TC, they are a perfect fit. While this mod certainly makes the car look better, you take about a 4mpg hit.

Pumping losses could be mitigated with lower gearing. Case in point, last summer I had the opportunity to spend some time driving a Z06 Corvette (505hp, 7 litres) and was amazed to find that it got about 28mpg during highway driving at about 75 mph. Of course the car was barely turing any rpms (less than 2000 rpms IIRC) while in 6th gear.


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## jeff_p (Mar 20, 2006)

SAL9000 said:


> Any modern Civic that averages 30 mpg has something very wrong or is being driven by like a race car. Said Prius driven under such conditions would get WAY less than 45 MPG.
> 
> But even in your skewed example, using a new Civic LX (MSRP $16k) vs. a new Prius (MSRP $23k), you would need a bit more than 140k miles to break even. That is an average ownership time of 9 years, and the majority of new car owners don't keep cars that long.


Same driver, same roads, same driving style. Just pointing out my experience with both cars.

Skewed? Civic EX with auto (MSRP $20405) would be a more fair comparison. Still not apples to apples since the Prius is larger and has more content.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

RIS said:


> Okay, let's try another one.
> 
> A 3/4 ton 4-wheel drive Chevrolet Suburban that I modified into a trail rig. I rebuilt the automatic transmission and both drive axles, had new driveshafts fabricated, rebuilt the suspension and steering, installed new springs, shocks, brakes, tires, and wheels, a new radiator, and some other stuff. It had a 6" lift kit, 35" mud tires, 4.88 gears, lockers in both diffs, a 6.2 liter V8 engine exhaling through dual 2-1/2"Flowmaster mufflers, and carried fabricated steel bumpers (for pushing down trees) that might as well have been made out of railroad track, a 9000 pound winch, dual batterys, two full-sized (35") spare tires, a spare rear drive shaft, spare fluids, belts, and hoses, shovel, axe, self-recovery kit, tool box, etc, etc, etc. It weighed 7250 pounds. I purchased and built it for about $5,000. The pics are in my photo album.
> 
> ...


Is your Suburban a diesel?


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## wwg (Aug 10, 2008)

RIS said:


> And it also isn't about the environment, as has been amply demonstrated.
> 
> At best, it's a misguided "feel good" gesture made by those with limited cognitive functions, and at worst, it is a vain attempt to display the image of superiority over others.


I completely agree with this.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

tl1 said:


> Really good info jeff. I read this recently about repairing the batteries and had been unaware of this. The hybrid battery has 28 separate battery modules in it. It's possible to repair just one of those modules to recondition the entire hybrid battery assembly because a battery problem will almost always be in just one of the modules. The article says Toyota will do this for $750 but hopefully free enterprise will also spawn other companies that can competently do this work for less money.


So it appears that this new "Prius math" extends into attempts to repair them too.

To any normal person, WHEN a Prius battery takes a dump, instead of realizing that it effectively renders the Prius a financial "total" (the cost of the thousands and thousands of dollars in needed repairs, plus the scrap value of the golf cart...err..."car", is greater than the KBB value of a similar intact and running one), you have two other options:

1) You can go to a wrecking yard, and buy a junk yard battery for $500 or so (which I'll believe when I see), and then pay some hack to replace it. This of course ignores the fact that the junk yard "donor" car, which is probably about the same age and miles as your broken one, arrived in a junk yard as the product of the previous owner's best ability to make car care decisions. This is why normal people don't buy used batterys for their cars out of junk yards. 

2) My personal favorite: For about $750, you can have the bad battery "reconditioned". To do this, they find out which one of the 28 individual cells are toast, and replace them with junk yard parts, which will make the entire thing magically last another 6 years and 150,000 miles or something like that.  I have to ask, how is it that in "Prius land", 28 multiplied by $750 is less than $500? If there are any Prius owners out there that would like to Paypal me $750, I'll send you 1/28 of a roll of toilet paper, similarly "reconditioned" by me.

It appears that in a BEST case scenario, the reality of either option is that you successfully restore the car to the condition that it was in right before it took a dump, and in doing so, you flush a bunch more money down the toilet on a car that never made sense to start with.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

Cajun Rich said:


> We are shopping for a new car for her. It will be a daily driver for a 20 mile each way stop and go commute. I already tried to put her on a commuter bike. She is not having that. I am looking for some reviews from people who drive these cars not the radical fanatics. Any helps tips or advice would be great.


Did anybody even do the math on the OP's scenario? That's only 10,000 miles a year.

Cars like the Prius make even less sense in situations like this.

A nice, used three year old cop car (a V8-powered Ford Crown Victoria) gets 16mpg city, 24mpg highway (19mpg combined). They can be had for about two grand at auction, they are comfy, spacious, and about the safest car on the planet in a crash.

10,000 miles a year at 16mpg city is 625 gallons of gas. At $4 a gallon, that's only $2,500 a year in fuel (about $200 a month).

A similar vintage three year old $16,000 Prius going 10,000 miles at 50 mpg is going to burn 200 gallons of gas, or $800 a year ($67 a month).

At a fuel savings of $133 a month, you would have to sentance your loved one to nine years in the S-box Prius before it ever broke even.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

RIS said:


> A nice, used three year old cop car (a V8-powered Ford Crown Victoria) gets 16mpg city, 24mpg highway (19mpg combined). They can be had for about two grand at auction, they are comfy, spacious,* and about the safest car on the planet in a crash.*


Are sure about this? The Crown Vic is not the safest of the two according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. The Crown Vic gets marginal, poor and average in all crash ratings except "offset front" which was rated "good" while the Prius is "good" overall (the best rating) for all crashes except for side crashes in the older 2004-2006 ones _without_ side airbags.

Vic: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=308
Prius: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=566

Also given that a 2008 Crown Vic in fair condition with 100,000 miles and decently equipped has a blue book of $8000 the chance of getting one for one quarter of that or $2000 is slim to none unless the thing is really trashed.

http://www.kbb.com/used-cars/ford/c...=fair&id=197121&category=sedan&mileage=100000


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

tl1 said:


> Are sure about this? The Crown Vic is not the safest of the two according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. The Crown Vic gets marginal, poor and average in all crash ratings except "offset front" which was rated "good" while the Prius is "good" overall (the best rating) for all crashes except for side crashes in the older 2004-2006 ones _without_ side airbags.
> 
> Vic: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=308
> Prius: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=566


Does your real issue with my statement actually have anything to do with how insurance companies rate the crashworthiness of the Ford Crown Victoria, or are you just outta ammo?

I've seen both vehicles crashes, and this is the simplest analogy that I can use:

The full-sized, full perimeter framed Crown Victoria is the can opener, and the frameless Prius is the can.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

pimpbot said:


> Yeah, Obama's guilty of continuing Bushie's little oil war, but I see you left that second part out.
> 
> Oh, and in case you didn't notice, we've mostly pulled out of Iraq, and it's the righties who are pushing to prop up the iron fisted dictators who are sitting on the mountains of oil lining their own pockets and letting their people live like peasants. The righties would rather see cheap oil and stable profits than democracy, and much of our country's GDP going to the military operations to support the oil supplies instead of actually developing true prosperity here.


You really don't know what you are talking about. We are over there to keep the US dollar as the dominent world currency... It's what allows us the option to buy a Prius...


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

...and where in the U.S. Constitution does it say that it's the government's job to be "developing true prosperity"?


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

FireLikeIYA said:


> You really don't know what you are talking about. We are over there to keep the US dollar as the dominent world currency... It's what allows us the option to buy a Prius...


Not doing a very good job of it, from the looks of the value of the dollar, and considering many oil producing nations are switching off the dollar. :nono:

*edit*

Not to mention, there are many nations all over the world who don't engage in such practices who's citizens can afford a Prius.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Just think about it OP... If you buy a Prius you can get on all of the forums and have a pissing match like RIS and tl1!:thumbsup:


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*My real issue with all your...*



RIS said:


> Does your real issue with my statement actually have anything to do with how insurance companies rate the crashworthiness of the Ford Crown Victoria, or are you just outta ammo?
> 
> I've seen both vehicles crashes, and this is the simplest analogy that I can use:
> 
> The full-sized, full perimeter framed Crown Victoria is the can opener, and the frameless Prius is the can.


..statements is that the veracity seems to be sacrificed to make points that have been predetermined without considering or knowing the facts involved.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*If you call trying to get to the truth...*



FireLikeIYA said:


> Just think about it OP... If you buy a Prius you can get on all of the forums and have a pissing match like RIS and tl1!:thumbsup:


...of the matter a "pissing match" then you have a lot to learn.  It's tough talking rationally about this Prius subject because somehow the right wing has made it an arguing point and battle ground in their "culture wars" using every manner of obfuscation, half truth and outright lies to defame the car for whatever their own twisted reasons are. I'm just pointing out facts to counterpoint. Sorry if the intellectually frustrated are getting even more so in the process.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

The reason that there is no continuity in the arguments of the flaming liberal progressives, is that they are intellectually dishonest.

Conservatives start with principles, and arrive at conclusions.

Liberals start with the word "want", and reverse-engineer flaccid arguments that attempt to support their position.

That's why I have been using fundamental arithmatic to make my point, and tl1 has long ago been reduced to nothing more than emotional hystrionics, hand-wringing, and name-calling.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

tl1 said:


> ...of the matter a "pissing match" then you have a lot to learn.  It's tough talking rationally about this Prius subject because somehow the right wing has made it an arguing point and battle ground in their "culture wars" using every manner of obfuscation, half truth and outright lies to defame the car for whatever their own twisted reasons are. I'm just pointing out facts to counterpoint. Sorry if the intellectually frustrated are getting even more so in the process.


Right wing? You mean conservatives? But what is more conservative than a Prius?:smilewinkgrin:

I heard Toyota is running a special on the Prius... A free soap box for the next 100 customers!

(tl1, BTW, I am just jesting as I agree with 75.691% of what you are saying... with the exception of the last statement listed above)


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

Nearly 100% of vehicles that I see on the road are transporting two or less people, and by far, the vast majority are occupied solely by the operator. If you really want to get 40 mpg or so, only have one or two people to move, and want to spend less money than a Prius costs, sex on wheels may be an option:


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Cajun Rich said:


> How do the VW's hold up? I know the engine is great but what about the body and interior? I see a lot on the road that could go either way. I dont know if its lack of quality or owner neglect.


They don't hold up, they are built, in VW's words, to be "biodegradeable" which means everything rubber or plastic on the car starts to "biodegrade" whether you are ready for it to do so, or not.

I would not recommend a new Common Rail TDI for women to drive. They are quirky, the DSG transmission does not behave like an automatic when you are in rush hour traffic from a stop and you stomp on the pedal. the ECM has a brain fart for a second or more, acting like it's stalled, instead of going.

Then there is the chance of misfueling or defective high pressure pump grenading and doing $8000 of repair work to the whole fuel system,loading it all up with shrapnel . It's under NHSTA investigation right now, and VW has been shirking warranty issues, blaming misfueling with gas as the culprit. I have my doubts VW will issue a recall to make the pumps right, Germans and their engineers and designers are an arrogant bunch, they don't make mistakes.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=286380

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INCLA-PE10034-6542.PDF

Vw has had 3 revisions on this bosch HPFP, someone cut some corners in the design or execution, but Bosch VW blames crappy diesel fuel for the failures. If that's the case, how come all of my older VW TDI diesel pumps aren't crapping out, or the Fords, Duramaxes and Cummins?


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*This may be the first common point...*

...of agreement between us. If I count cars when I go back out on the road tomorrow I'd guess at least 95-99% of them will have a single person in them. It makes no sense to have a big internal combustion engine hauling tons of metal around with ONE person inside! Gawd, I love Ducatis too. I'll take mine black and naked though. 

Really in general if one wants real performance get a motorcycle. The performance and excitement for the dollar is unmatched in any other street-legal vehicle and because of the power to weight ratio you might even get some good fuel economy. Unfortunately in much of the USA you can only ride them for part of the year.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*The only arithmetic you've used...*



RIS said:


> The reason that there is no continuity in the arguments of the flaming liberal progressives, is that they are intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Conservatives start with principles, and arrive at conclusions.
> 
> ...


...has been as relates to the dollars and sense of why it is a better short term deal financially to buy a conventional internal combustion small car and I (or anyone else) have yet to dispute that yet you keep playing the same tune over and over. This is one reason there should be a sizable tax credit for vehicles getting great fuel economy; it's seriously in the national interest to use less oil and that's a cheap way to accomplish that and to make high MPG cars affordable. The Prius at one time had a $3150 tax credit, the Chevy Volt now has a $7500 credit. Remember those are not refunds they are credits. You have to pay at least that much in federal taxes for them to do you any good. Emotional "hystrionics", hand-wringing, and name-calling my @ss, on your part maybe.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

I like motorcycles because they are small, use less fuel than cars and they are like bikes. but It's a bummer that they produce 10% as much smog emissions than cars.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/highway1/la-hy-throttle11-2008jun11,0,1076364.story


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## ranier (Sep 9, 2003)

tl1 said:


> ...of agreement between us. If I count cars when I go back out on the road tomorrow I'd guess at least 95-99% of them will have a single person in them. It makes no sense to have a big internal combustion engine hauling tons of metal around with ONE person inside! Gawd, I love Ducatis too. I'll take mine black and naked though.
> 
> Really in general if one wants real performance get a motorcycle. The performance and excitement for the dollar is unmatched in any other street-legal vehicle and because of the power to weight ratio you might even get some good fuel economy. Unfortunately in much of the USA you can only ride them for part of the year.


Personally, I'd go with a 796 or even 696 Monster.

Who say's you can't ride year-round? Unless you live in the Northern climes, proper equipment and gear can extend riding season. Stuff like heated handgrips/seats, wterproof pants/jackets/suits and heated vests can make riding in winter enjoyable.

Back to the issue at hand:

I'd get a TDI over a Prius anyday.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*I guess it's time motorcycles became good citizens eh?*



Killroy said:


> I like motorcycles because they are small, use less fuel than cars and they are like bikes. but It's a bummer that they produce 10% as much smog emissions than cars.
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/highway1/la-hy-throttle11-2008jun11,0,1076364.story


Bad boy image aside. It doesn't sound like the costs are very much to control exhaust emissions.



> How much will new emission controls cost?
> Your cost for emission controls depends on the control technologies
> used, manufacturing processes, the size of the manufacturer, and other
> issues. We estimate increased costs on average of about $30 per motorcycle
> ...


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

1) Jeff P: I can't believe you were getting 30 mpg in a Civic. That's what my wife gets in her 98 Accord. You must do a lot of grid-lock stop&go driving, where the Prius excells.

2) The crown vic is not the safest car on the road. The 5-series is, followed by the Taurus, the Enclave/Traverse/Acadia triplets, the Odyssey, Sienna, Grand Cherokee, and M37. Those are the top 5% safest cars right now. The crown vic is rated at slightly safer than the Prius- most notably in a frontal crash. It's less saffe in a side impact.

http://www.informedforlife.org/demos/FCKeditor/UserFiles/File/MasterSCORE2011rMarch5.pdf

3)Something really needs to be done about the performance of the Prius, and the efficiency of other cars. The Atkinson cycle is a great idea, but it needs to only be used in certain conditions. It just sacrifices too much performance to be used all the time. I'd like to see it as a replacement for cylinder deactivation in bigger engines. Maybe there could even be a 5th intake valve, and under cruising conditions you use this one valve, that closes only half way down the intake stroke. Throttling by adjusting valve duration this way would be phenomonal.

In the Prius, I'd like to see a system like that, but combined with an electric or de-clutchable supercharger. Then, you could run an extreme Atkinson for cruising, Otto cycle for normal cruising, and Miller cycle for when you really need some juice.

4) Motorcyles are soooo tempting...but sooooo dangerous. To many awful drivers where I live.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

tl1 said:


> Bad boy image aside. It doesn't sound like the costs are very much to control exhaust emissions.


Yes.

A lot of motorcyclist put aftermarket "racing only" exhaust, making emissions worse, which is basically a federal offense because it is tampering with the emission system. LEOs don't enforce this rule.


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## cruzcontrol (Dec 13, 2010)

tl1 said:


> ... This is one reason there should be a sizable tax credit for vehicles getting great fuel economy; it's seriously in the national interest to use less oil and that's a cheap way to accomplish that and to make high MPG cars affordable. The Prius at one time had a $3150 tax credit, the Chevy Volt now has a $7500 credit. Remember those are not refunds they are credits. You have to pay at least that much in federal taxes for them to do you any good. Emotional "hystrionics", hand-wringing, and name-calling my @ss, on your part maybe.


Why should anyone pay (taxes) pay for you to drive anything.
You want to save money by spending tax dollars. Now that does not make sence.
You want to save the world, go for it just know that your ideals are not the same as others.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

cruzcontrol said:


> Why should anyone pay (taxes) pay for you to drive anything.
> You want to save money by spending tax dollars. Now that does not make sence.
> You want to save the world, go for it just know that your ideals are not the same as others.


Carrot vs. Stick. Tax incentives are the Carrot.

The stick is increasing gas tax, which will punish the gas guzzlers a little more. This is necessary anyway because there is not enough road tax revenue to take care of the roads these days.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Subsidy money doesn't just poof into existence; it's taken from someone at threat of violence & imprisonment, and then given to others to help them buy an expensive car. Seem fair?

I'd like to see more of 'em, too, but not at the cost of subsidies.


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## romanl (Jul 31, 2010)

RIS said:


> . If you really want to get 40 mpg or so,


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: 
the only problem is you wont get 40 MPG with that bike  
and if you do, then it defeats the purpose of owning that bike


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Problem solved...










Ahhhhh yeah....100 mpg......daaaammmmmnnnnnnn.


----------



## cruzcontrol (Dec 13, 2010)

Killroy said:


> Carrot vs. Stick. Tax incentives are the Carrot.
> 
> The stick is increasing gas tax, which will punish the gas guzzlers a little more. This is necessary anyway because there is not enough road tax revenue to take care of the roads these days.


I already have a gas efficient car so stop hitting me with that stick!
Taking money from everyone in the form of taxes does not only punish the gas guzzlers.

and BTW the problem with the roads is that states and individual communities have choosen to use the money in other ways... like exorbitant public salaries and pensions.


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Good question*



cruzcontrol said:


> Why should anyone pay (taxes) pay for you to drive anything.
> You want to save money by spending tax dollars. Now that does not make sence.
> You want to save the world, go for it just know that your ideals are not the same as others.


Maybe you should stop the political discussion before the thread is whisked off to the recycle bin. However, the oil companies like the idea of subsidies why don't you? Maybe we can cut the subsidies to the most profitable companies on Earth and use the money to cut the consumers a break and improve our economy and security all at the same time? My last political missive here. 



> As Oil Industry Fights a Tax, It Reaps Subsidies
> 
> But an examination of the American tax code indicates that oil production is among the most heavily subsidized businesses, with tax breaks available at virtually every stage of the exploration and extraction process.
> 
> ...


----------



## cruzcontrol (Dec 13, 2010)

tl1
I want some of what your smokin!

It must be a nice view from that lofty perch


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

RIS said:


> The reason that there is no continuity in the arguments of the flaming liberal progressives, is that they are intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Conservatives start with principles, and arrive at conclusions.


This must be a new phenomenon. Every conservative I know and talking head I heard, starts out with wanting something and drumming up fear tactics to get it.... or starts out with fear and doing stupid things to obtain what they think is safe... ends justifies the means, like.

You sir, are way full of shiz.


----------



## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

No nation has ever taxed itself into prosperity.

If it requires $7,500 of my tax dollars to get you to do what is allegedly "the right thing to do", then it isn't the right thing to do.

Supply and demand should run the market. Attempting to influence the outcome by stilting it up with my tax dollars is wrong in every sense of the word.


----------



## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

@dam said:


> Problem solved...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even better.


----------



## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

RIS said:


> No nation has ever taxed itself into prosperity.
> 
> If it requires $7,500 of my tax dollars to get you to do what is allegedly "the right thing to do", then it isn't the right thing to do.
> 
> Supply and demand should run the market. Attempting to influence the outcome by stilting it up with my tax dollars is wrong in every sense of the word.


Your right, that is why its a $7,500 TAX CREDIT = Less taxes.


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Pretty weak trolling dude*



cruzcontrol said:


> I 2nd that
> 
> I don't know if they are made in mexico (or if that makes a difference) like my wifes, butt he interior will fall apart after 4 years. And badly. All fabric is coming up insulaton from the AC ducts falling out and coming throught the vents, now it takes 40 min of driving to get cool air. Auto trunk open and pass side window, arm rest.... Should I continue... BTW This car was garage kept and had less than10k miles a year in a moderate climate
> 
> With that said I also dislike the prius. you might want to open up the options a little.





cruzcontrol said:


> Why should anyone pay (taxes) pay for you to drive anything.
> You want to save money by spending tax dollars. Now that does not make sence.
> You want to save the world, go for it just know that your ideals are not the same as others.





cruzcontrol said:


> I already have a gas efficient car so stop hitting me with that stick!
> Taking money from everyone in the form of taxes does not only punish the gas guzzlers.
> 
> and BTW the problem with the roads is that states and individual communities have choosen to use the money in other ways... like exorbitant public salaries and pensions.





cruzcontrol said:


> tl1
> I want some of what your smokin!
> 
> It must be a nice view from that lofty perch


Pretty sad when you've got 4 posts total since joining a few months ago and they're all in this thread throwing stones at ideas you can't or won't comprehend.


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*The antis are...*



Killroy said:


> Your right, that is why its a $7,500 TAX CREDIT = Less taxes.


...so easily confused.


----------



## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

tl1 said:


> ...so easily confused.


----------



## SAL9000 (Apr 16, 2010)

Killroy said:


> Your right, that is why its a $7,500 TAX CREDIT = Less taxes.


RIS is correct; a tax credit to one taxpayer = a tax burden to another; his tax dollars are indeed subsidizing the purchase of hybrid vehicles.


----------



## cruzcontrol (Dec 13, 2010)

tl1
My first post was to the original post
the second and third was to express my opinion,
and the the fourth was to say I don't agree with your logic.

I only have four post because I'm new, I tend not to be confrontational, and I use the search function instead of posting.

So now this is my last post.
tl1 If you make it down to NOLA mabye we can sit down and have a real conversation.
I bought gas efficinet cars 20 years ago before it was "in style" or a political statment.
What is realy sad is that you and i agree on what needs to be done we just have very different ways of going about it.
I think it should be a personal choice and forced on us.

An analogy would be smoking...
I don't think it's good for people, but if they want to smoke, go for it


----------



## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Killroy said:


> Your right, that is why its a $7,500 TAX CREDIT = Less taxes.


If they don't cut $7,500 of spending for every tax credit they grant, it'll just roll into the debt and be taken in taxes eventually, with interest.


----------



## Vincyboy (Mar 6, 2011)

Back to topic:

Actually, I drive a VW GTI 2007 with the DSG gearbox...

I drove a golf TDI highline+DSG 2010 for ±250km. I drove a rabit 2.5 2009 manual for ±500km. I like them. I prefer the handling of the TDI and braking. Obviously, you won't make me sell my GTI for a TDI, I drove 2.5km to go to work when I can't use my old bike.

I didn't try the prius... but... even for 100$ I'll never want to. Toyota build good car... but... they are so scary to drive. No handling at all, no power at all, no ergomic feature (compared to VW, I admit), and this car is gay 

And if you want an extra power and fuel economy, you can reflash your ECU for ±500$ and get 180hp and 300lb-ft... and still do 5l/100km on highway at 110km/h. www.unitronic.ca

But I must warn you... once you go volkswagen, you won't never go back to japanese. Don't say I didn't told ya!


----------



## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

Since the car is "for her" I would buy the one which causes you the least amount of headaches and money in the long run. My buddy gave me this advice when my wife and I were shopping for a new car for her and I am glad I went with it. Of the two cars you are looking at the Prius is apparantly more reliable. Edmunds cost to own calculator puts the true cost to own of the Prius at $31,482 over a 5 year period from new. Edmunds predicts the Golf Diesel will cost $40,004 over the same 5 year period. That is an $8500 difference! Prius wins hands down.

http://www.edmunds.com/tco.html


----------



## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

@dam said:


> If they don't cut $7,500 of spending for every tax credit they grant, it'll just roll into the debt and be taken in taxes eventually, with interest.


Directly, no. Indirectly, yes. I don't believe in the tax credits for cars, but it is a lesser of two evils. Look at all the incentives and tax breaks to oil companies, so gas guzzlers can be affordable. Take those away, take away Iraq, raise gas tax to actually pay for the roads and the price of oil will be the natural intensive for efficient cars like the Prius, Volt and even diesels.










Cash for clunkers cost 3 billion and it was probably 10 times as costly per MPG increase than incentives toward the Prius (which no longer exist).


----------



## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Killroy said:


> Directly, no. Indirectly, yes. I don't believe in the tax credits for cars, but it is a lesser of two evils. Look at all the incentives and tax breaks to oil companies, so gas guzzlers can be affordable. Take those away, take away Iraq, raise gas tax to actually pay for the roads and the price of oil will be the natural intensive for efficient cars like the Prius, Volt and even diesels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK. So, wouldn't it be better to do that than to subsidize the oil companies and then subsidize efficient cars (but only if they use particular technologies) on top of it? You don't show your disdain for subsidies by favoring other subsidies. That's just a race to bankruptcy.

I'm against all subsidies. Cash for clunkers was a travesty of waste and destruction.


----------



## PatrickK (Apr 26, 2007)

Vincyboy said:


> Back to topic:
> 
> Actually, I drive a VW GTI 2007 with the DSG gearbox...
> 
> ...


How is the GTI doing? A lot of maintenance? I am looking for a Fahrenheit edition for my wife. We do have a Subaru. My colleague/friend from work is Japanese and says she will never buy Toyota. She drives Honda. Her dad never owned a Japanese car, only German ones and he lives in Japan.

Japanese cars are rather Spartan. I would for a Diesel, it is impossible to kill the engine.


----------



## Vincyboy (Mar 6, 2011)

PatrickK said:


> How is the GTI doing? A lot of maintenance? I am looking for a Fahrenheit edition for my wife. We do have a Subaru. My colleague/friend from work is Japanese and says she will never buy Toyota. She drives Honda. Her dad never owned a Japanese car, only German ones and he lives in Japan.
> 
> Japanese cars are rather Spartan. I would for a Diesel, it is impossible to kill the engine.


I'not sur to understand why she doesn't want to buy toyota if she gots a Honda... For me, it's the same cr**. My brother has a Civic SI 2007. When I was stock, I must admit he was winning on the straight ans horizontal road. Going for a hill, I was raping him. On autoslalom, I was humiliating him. Same price for the cars.

For you Fahrenheit, you pay for extra on bodywork and wheel. Same mecanics. If you go for a 2006-2007, ask for the maintenance chart. (PCV upgrade, cam follower, etc). Some minor fail from VW that could totally wreck the car. Well, if you really intend to buy a GTI before 2008, send me a PM.

back to topic: even if the Prius do 3.7l/100 instead on 4.5 (vw claims), the prius doesn't come with a warning that says : Try to stay awake! Low fuel consumtion BUT no available power if you need it. I'm wondering if you can towe 2 bikes with the prius  lol


----------



## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

@dam said:


> OK. So, wouldn't it be better to do that than to subsidize the oil companies and then subsidize efficient cars (but only if they use particular technologies) on top of it? You don't show your disdain for subsidies by favoring other subsidies. That's just a race to bankruptcy.
> 
> I'm against all subsidies. Cash for clunkers was a travesty of waste and destruction.


Agreed.


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Sure there are*



RIS said:


> No nation has ever taxed itself into prosperity.
> 
> If it requires $7,500 of my tax dollars to get you to do what is allegedly "the right thing to do", then it isn't the right thing to do.
> 
> Supply and demand should run the market. Attempting to influence the outcome by stilting it up with my tax dollars is wrong in every sense of the word.


Pretty much all of Europe and Japan, Austrailia... etc. Wow... especially Scandinavia. Then again, they pay more in taxes, but they also get more services that they don't have to pay for out of the household budget, so it is a net wash... but things are taken care of. They don't have to worry if they can pay for health care (and I'm way too acutely aware of those issues here in the US) or pay for college, and they have waaaay less crime there.

If you are referring to the talking point of 'Nobody ever spent themselves rich", I'll go one further. Nobody ever saved themselves rich (that weren't rich already). The path to wealth is careful investment.

Sorry to get way OT here.

Back to the topic on hand: I still vote Diesel. Now if they can do Diesel and hybrid and I can keep my manual transmission, I'm all over it. I'll probably have to give up my manual transmission at some point for the sake of fuel efficiency (DSG and CVT/planetary gear power splitter will beat it for saving gas anyway), but I won't be super happy about that. I like to be more involved in my driving.

I drive an Audi A4 with a chipped 1.8 turbo engine. While its pretty dang fuel efficient for a gas engine with that much power, I do have pangs of guilt when I floor it up an on-ramp. It's way fun, but burns a bunch of dead dinosaurs.


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*The Japanese earthquake/tsunami*

...has stopped production and delivery of many Japan assembled cars including the Toyota Prius. At this time all US bound Prius cars are assembled in Japan. So if anyone was considering buying a new Japanese built car of any kind, they may want to do it quick or maybe plan on waiting out the results of this massive natural event. The Toyota lots around this area in SE MI are well stocked with Priuses now but it looks like the supply may be slow coming from the factories affected by the natural disaster in the future. Most Toyota, Subaru, Nissan, Honda etc. car and truck models are built in the USA though.



> Earthquake, Tsunami Shut Down Toyota Plants In Japan
> 
> Posted: 3:26 pm EDT March 14, 2011Updated: 3:52 pm EDT March 14, 2011
> CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- The popular Prius hybrid is already in short supply because of skyrocketing gas prices, and they might become even harder to find.
> ...


----------



## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Republican Senator Lamar Alexander: buying electric car is "patriotic"
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/03/1...lamar-alexander-buying-nissan-leaf-patriotic/


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*He has a plug-in Prius too*



Killroy said:


> Republican Senator Lamar Alexander: buying electric car is "patriotic"
> http://green.autoblog.com/2011/03/1...lamar-alexander-buying-nissan-leaf-patriotic/


It's good to see someone isn't trying to ignore our little oil addiction problem. :thumbsup:



> Sen. Lamar Alexander doesn't just talk about alternative car technologies. He spent $10,000 to have a Toyota Prius fitted with a special new battery that essentially turned his senatorial black hybrid into an electric car. I had a chance to talk about his new ride and the potential for electric cars to save tanker's worth of oil, and here's what he said.
> 
> Paul Bedard: Tell me about your new car. What is it?
> 
> ...


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Tax credits for gas guzzlers*



SAL9000 said:


> RIS is correct; a tax credit to one taxpayer = a tax burden to another; his tax dollars are indeed subsidizing the purchase of hybrid vehicles.


I agree it's really way past time to end the tax exemption/credit for pickup trucks, min-vans and SUVs written into the Gas Guzzler Tax. We probably need a new yearly gas guzzler tax too so that vehicles that use a lot of fuel and make a lot of CO2 can pay their true share of taxes. 



> Gas Guzzler Tax: Program Overview
> EPA420-F-06-042, October 2006
> Download PDF Version of this fact sheet formatted for printing. (4 pp, 141K, About PDF Files)
> 
> ...


----------



## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

Taxes should not be used to manipulate people into doing (or not doing) things. It's just wrong.

BTW, after Senator Alexander wasted money and raped the environment on "a symbol" (his words), he flushed another $10,000 down the toilet to convert it to basically a full-electric vehicle that he recharges with an extenstion cord at home. Since more electricity is generated in the U.S. by burning coal than by any other means, that simply converted his Prius tailpipe into this one:


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Prius shortages*

In addition to shortages of the current model Prius the yet to be released larger Prius will be delayed by the earthquake and tsunami in Japan.



> Last Updated: May 13. 2011 8:47AM
> Toyota's new Prius model may not arrive for a year
> Yuri Kageyama / / Associated Press
> 
> ...


In related news, most Americans support new 60 MPG fuel economy standards. 



> Report: Most Americans back 60 mpg standard
> Jaclyn Trop / / The Detroit News
> 
> Most Americans support a 60-mile-per-gallon fuel economy mandate, according to a report released Monday by a consumer group.
> ...


----------



## Cajun Rich (Mar 6, 2010)

FYI 480 miles on 9.3 gallons the first tank!


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Awesome*



Cajun Rich said:


> FYI 480 miles on 9.3 gallons the first tank!


Good to hear you got something (Prius I'm guessing) with such great fuel economy now that the oil companies are squeezing every last penny from us as they become the largest most profitable corporations ever in existence. Now that the cold weather has passed and I have new low rolling resistance Conti ProContact EcoPlus tires on mine my MPGs are back in the 52-54 average MPG range. :thumbsup:


----------



## Cajun Rich (Mar 6, 2010)

Yes we got the Prius. She is enjoying it a lot. Especially being able to avoid the gas station.


----------



## storz (Jan 31, 2011)

We have an 05 Jetta TDI that gets 45-50mpg. 135k trouble free miles so far. I had the ECU flashed a year or so ago and it moves pretty good now and still get the same gas mileage. 

My mom also drives a 2011 A3 TDI and gets in the 40-45 mpg range 

TDI > Prius


----------



## GOTA (Apr 21, 2011)

Hybrids are for transportation

TDI is for drivers


----------



## storz (Jan 31, 2011)

GOTA said:


> Hybrids are for transportation
> 
> TDI is for drivers


Exactly.

With the flash mine makes 225 lbs/ft of torque at 1800 RPM, its a manual transmission as well. Good fun. Total sleeper.


----------



## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

GOTA said:


> Hybrids are for transportation
> 
> TDI is for drivers


Most people that bought their car to "drive" end up using it for "transportation."

"Hey, that is a nice S2000. 'Ever Been to the track?"
"No."
"Autocross?"
"No."
"Backroads?"
"No"

My conclusion is that people buy cars for their "image" and people love to hate hybrids because apparently saving money on gas and cleaner air is not the right image.


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Also most people commute*

...in rush hour traffic creeping along at low to medium speeds. Not exactly an arena for the joys of "driving". Nothing in the facts of hybrid automobiles make them inherently bad drivers it's just that up to this point they've generally been optimized for utility and the best fuel economy.



Killroy said:


> Most people that bought their car to "drive" end up using it for "transportation."
> 
> "Hey, that is a nice S2000. 'Ever Been to the track?"
> "No."
> ...


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Cool*



Cajun Rich said:


> Yes we got the Prius. She is enjoying it a lot. Especially being able to avoid the gas station.


That's a pretty good feeling these days with gasoline at European level prices and rising.


----------



## storz (Jan 31, 2011)

Here fixed it for you



Killroy said:


> Most people that bought their car to "drive" end up using it for "transportation."
> 
> "Hey, that is a nice *Corvette/Audi/BMW/Miata/Impreza*.(had them all) 'Ever Been to the track?"
> "*YUP*."
> ...












































My Rovers get dirty too

















Some of us use our vehicles :thumbsup:

**I should add that I have nothing against the Prius, its truly is the car that is changing the minds of Americans. Its just not my flavor.


----------



## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

Toyota Prius = Appletini

VW TDI = Budweiser 24 oz can that you smash on your forehead when you're done.


----------



## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

Both the Prius and the Jetta TDI are in the slowest SCCA Autocross Class, HS. So is the TDI really a "drivers car". I say no. The VW Golf is in a faster class, and has nearly the same fuel cost since diesel is so expensive.



storz said:


> Here fixed it for you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

Well, a Honda Accord V6 is probably as fast if not faster than my A4. Even a Camry Hybrid has a 0-60 in like 6.5 seconds, which is pretty dang good for an economy family sedan. I think would probably beat my A4 in a straight line up to 70 MPH. But, they feel soulless and dead to me. Cars for robots to drive. No love there. I do get that warm fuzzy feeling from my A4. 

You don't have to drive a car on a track, or even to its limits to appreciate it.

Just sayin'... what appeals to you might be beyond numbers on a spreadsheet. I would still take a TDI over a Prius today, but I would be happy to drive either car as a rental. I wouldn't hate it, per se, like I hated the Chevy Cobalt, Dodge Caliber, or PT Cruiser I rented for work.

And yes, even though the TDI might be slow in an autocross kinda situation, it feels reasonably quick on the road. It also handles really well and has good driver feedback through the wheel and pedals.


----------



## Nadric (Apr 12, 2011)

Killroy said:


> So is the TDI really a "drivers car". I say no.


----------



## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

GOTA said:


> Hybrids are for transportation
> 
> TDI is for drivers


Correction:

Hybrids are for transportation

TDI is for transportation

Unless you are pushing closer to 300+ HP you are not really in a "drivers"


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*I dunno....*



FireLikeIYA said:


> Correction:
> 
> Hybrids are for transportation
> 
> ...


I'm in the 210hp range, and I feel pretty 'driver-ish'. Even my wife's Avant wagon (with a stick :thumbsup: )at 150hp feels pretty 'driver-ish'


----------



## Nadric (Apr 12, 2011)

FireLikeIYA said:


> Unless you are pushing clsoer to 300+ HP you are not really in a "drivers"


What a non-drivers car may look like:


----------



## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

pimpbot said:


> I'm in the 210hp range, and I feel pretty 'driver-ish'. Even my wife's Avant wagon (with a stick :thumbsup: )at 150hp feels pretty 'driver-ish'


You may just be a good driver and know how to utilize all of the performance that your car can offer... Yeah, I know my statement was typical forum generalization. Maybe "drivers car" should be defined. I know that when I drive a car with some power it makes all the difference in the world. My wife also drives a nice sports sedan with over 200HP and it handles great but I wouldn't define it as a drivers car as you can't even break the rear end loose.


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Yes because...*



GOTA said:


> Hybrids are for transportation
> 
> TDI is for drivers


..._hybrids_ are necessarily slow and non-inspiring right? 



> Porsche 918 Spyder plug-in hybrid concept gets 78 mpg, hits 62 mph in 3.2 seconds
> 
> Here you go, have your cake and eat it too. Porsche is looking to prove that the best of both worlds don't have to be mutually exclusive with the 918 Spyder concept scheduled to debut tomorrow at the 2010 Geneva Motor Show. Looking a bit like a Carrera GT evolved, the 918 Spyder is powered by both a 500-horsepower V8 and a pair of electric motors (one for each axle) producing an additional 218 horsepower or 160kW. At full gallop, the concept can theoretically reach 62 miles per hour in 3.2 seconds and nip 198 mph on the high end. On the flip side, Porsche says it can also achieve 78 miles per gallon and emit just 70 grams of CO2 per kilometer.
> 
> http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/0...plug-in-hybrid-concept-gets-78-mpg-hits-62-m/


----------



## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

Killroy said:


> Both the Prius and the Jetta TDI are in the slowest SCCA Autocross Class, HS. So is the TDI really a "drivers car". I say no. The VW Golf is in a faster class, and has nearly the same fuel cost since diesel is so expensive.


A "driver's car" car is certainly not defined by how fast a car is. Don't let the SCCA tell you what a driver's car is. I drove a TDI Jetta recently and loved it. Gobs of low end torque, pulls very hard in every gear, its got nicely weighted steering and great 6 speed manual gearbox. I loved it. How many cars are that fun to drive and get close to 50 mpg? Not many.

There are many factors that make a car "driver's car," speed is just one.


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Well, I can't*



FireLikeIYA said:


> You may just be a good driver and know how to utilize all of the performance that your car can offer... Yeah, I know my statement was typical forum generalization. Maybe "drivers car" should be defined. I know that when I drive a car with some power it makes all the difference in the world. My wife also drives a nice sports sedan with over 200HP and it handles great but I wouldn't define it as a drivers car as you can't even break the rear end loose.


On dry pavement going straight, I can't brake any of the wheels loose. I gots me the Quattro! :thumbsup: You rev the engine up, dump the clutch and it just goes... no drama. Love it! It's kinda hard on the driveline and motor mounts, tho.


----------



## nullifygirls (Mar 21, 2011)

I don't like discussing payment terms but I like arguments quality of product.


----------



## storz (Jan 31, 2011)

FireLikeIYA said:


> Unless you are pushing closer to 300+ HP you are not really in a "drivers"


Thousands of Miata/Triumph/MG/Austin Healey/S2000 owners would probably disagree with you. Horsepower has ZERO to do with legitimacy as a sports car.


----------



## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

storz said:


> Thousands of Miata/Triumph/MG/Austin Healey/S2000 owners would probably disagree with you. Horsepower has ZERO to do with legitimacy as a sports car.


Yes!!!!! Finally someone who knows what they're talking about.


----------



## Zeroack (Jul 4, 2005)




----------



## Anom (Jun 11, 2008)

We are a GAS FREE all DIESEL HOUSEHOLD.

2001 Jetta TDI and 2006 Jetta TDI..... :thumbsup:

The biggest thing about the TDI's is preventative maintenance... Don't treat them like other vehicles. You need to do the Timing belt every 60k, run a synthetic oil.. etc...

Not sure who said TDI's are expensive in the long run on maintenance but what happens when that Prius battery dies at 80k or 100k or whenever... What is the cost there?





:nono:


----------



## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Anom said:


> Not sure who said TDI's are expensive in the long run on maintenance but what happens when that Prius battery dies at 80k or 100k or whenever... What is the cost there?


Less than the cost of maintaining a tdi for 100k.


----------



## Anom (Jun 11, 2008)

One Pivot said:


> Less than the cost of maintaining a tdi for 100k.


Link to that cost please?


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Battery warranty*



Anom said:


> Link to that cost please?


Standard Toyota hybrid components warranty is 8 years and/or 100,000 miles. In California it's 10 years and/or 150,000 miles as part of the state mandated emissions warranty.

http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/warranty.html

However they've been lasting far longer than that because the battery system is charged and discharged very conservatively. Also the hybrid battery system is modular so single modules can be replaced or bad individual cells within the modules can be replaced.


----------



## Anom (Jun 11, 2008)

I would be curious to see a maintenance cost schedule for same model years... 2002 prius v 2002 TDI and 2010 TDI vs 2010 Prius. 

Considering the Prius MSRP is approximately $4700 higher then a comparable TDI. 

I love my TDI's, I can do any and all maintenance without the help of any dealer or shops.:thumbsup:


----------



## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

VW/Audi turbo(fsi) cars burn a crapload of oil. Some even came with an emergency bag of oil in the UK.

RIP catalytic converter, Hello Sludge.

Saving that... the prius is pretty duchey





If you drive highway, i.e. over 80km/h 80% of the mileage, just get a tdi... if you sit in slooow city traffic a lot, get a hybrid... better yet get a bicycle instead of a hybrid.


----------



## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Anom said:


> I would be curious to see a maintenance cost schedule for same model years... 2002 prius v 2002 TDI and 2010 TDI vs 2010 Prius.
> 
> Considering the Prius MSRP is approximately $4700 higher then a comparable TDI.
> 
> I love my TDI's, I can do any and all maintenance without the help of any dealer or shops.:thumbsup:


Has VW finally included breaking an electronic component weekly in the maintenance schedule? :lol:

The prius is a quality car. you just drive it and put gas in it, and change the oil every 5k. the TDI breaks constantly because vw builds cars like crap. Whats wrong with calling it like it is?

I came close to buying a TDI. They're really fun cars, and Im a big diesel fan. The Prius drives like pure ass and I would never consider one for a second.. but it is what it is, Toyota puts cars together many, many times better than VW. I know VW guys like to leg hump like their cars dont fall apart constantly.. but they do. Theres a reason they're constantly at the bottom of all reliability ratings. People buy TDI's because they're into TDI's. Buying one to save money is like cutting off your toes to run faster, its just not helping.

Its a silly argument. If you like your car, cool. Enjoy it. Im a huge BMW fan too, Im not going to pretend like they dont leak, fail, burn modules, and eat ball joints though. I still love the time I spend driving 3-series cars. The time spend under the hood is the cost. Theres a huge difference between "i want a reliable car to drive to work every day" and "i know how to fix stuff and i want a toy".


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## Anom (Jun 11, 2008)

One Pivot said:


> the TDI breaks constantly because vw builds cars like crap.
> The prius is a quality car. you just drive it and put gas in it, and change the oil every 5k. Whats wrong with calling it like it is?


Breaks Constantly? of the 6 TDI's between a small group of friends we have yet to have any "Break Constantly" issues.. We change our oil every 15k-18k miles with a Mobil Delvac 1 esp 5w-40 and change filters (oil, cabin, fuel).

-Replaced 1 axle assembly at 120k miles on one. 
-Replacing front brakes for the first time on another with 128k miles.

Maintenance is key. I prefer to maintain versus just driving it. Maybe the Prius is the Zero maintenance car aside from oil changes. :thumbsup:

All manufactures have had some reliability issues and I am sure the prius is not exempt from that, or maybe they are... But I will tell you people will start freaking out when they figure out exactly what the cost is to replace batteries.

This is just like a a Chevy vs Ford debate.... never ending.


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## GOTA (Apr 21, 2011)

Killroy said:


> Most people that bought their car to "drive" end up using it for "transportation."
> 
> "Hey, that is a nice S2000. 'Ever Been to the track?"
> "No."
> ...


Not much image for a diesel car. Very few people know they even exist. The car itself looks exactly the same as the gasser. Unless you see the little badge on the back you wouldn't even know that it was a different car. It's not like a hybrid that is designed to stand out. You don't buy a TDI for image. You buy it because it's cheaper to run and it's a lot of fun to drive.


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## bustamove (Aug 12, 2004)

GOTA said:


> Not much image for a diesel car. Very few people know they even exist. The car itself looks exactly the same as the gasser. Unless you see the little badge on the back you wouldn't even know that it was a different car. It's not like a hybrid that is designed to stand out. You don't buy a TDI for image. You buy it because it's cheaper to run and it's a lot of fun to drive.


Diesel cars have their benefits, but "fun to drive" is debatable. VW tried to promote the fun quotient of diesel cars with their Jetta TDI race series and TDI Cup Edition Jetta. Two thumbs down for both. The race series had a set of rules that were so strict, the teams couldn't even change the tire pressures to suit their needs and the Jetta TDI Cup Edition car is so low on horsepower, the driver really has to dig deep to squeeze any fun out of the car. I spent a full day at Laguna Seca with a Jetta TDI Cup Edition car and seriously considered going home early. Something I've never done even when I've been at the track and the rain is coming down hard.

IMO, diesels are practical, very efficient, and very under-appreciated. And I would certainly purchase a diesel powered car over a hybrid any day of the week.


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## bustamove (Aug 12, 2004)

*Misconception about batteries in hybrids*



Anom said:


> All manufactures have had some reliability issues and I am sure the prius is not exempt from that, or maybe they are... But I will tell you people will start freaking out when they figure out exactly what the cost is to replace batteries.
> 
> This is just like a a Chevy vs Ford debate.... never ending.


The Ni-MH and Li-Ion batteries in cars are designed to last 10 years or more. Even though the Prius has had its 10 year anniversary, those old Ni-MH batteries are still performing and owners have not had to deal with the cost of getting them replaced because the battery's lifecyle has been exhausted.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

Anom said:


> Breaks Constantly? of the 6 TDI's between a small group of friends we have yet to have any "Break Constantly" issues.. We change our oil every 15k-18k miles with a Mobil Delvac 1 esp 5w-40 and change filters (oil, cabin, fuel).
> 
> -Replaced 1 axle assembly at 120k miles on one.
> -Replacing front brakes for the first time on another with 128k miles.
> ...


Yeah, I love my dubs (and Audis). Audi maintenance is a beeach, tho. That $1200 timing belt every 60-70k miles sucks. I had to do a clutch on my wife Avant, and that with a timing belt (done at the same time) was $2200 (on what was originally a $5000 car to us), and that was with an aftermarket sport clutch that was cheaper than OEM. The dual mass flywheel was major $$$. Looking back, I maybe should have done it. The single mass flywheel is way jerkier when shifting. Then again, we should be good on the maintenance for another 60k miles... or 10 years with the amount she drives. :thumbsup:

The one major turn-off I see with new VWs and Audis is that DSG transmission. I mean, it seems to work great, once they got out of the customer beta test phase with it. It's that maintenance.... the $800 fluid change and service every 60k miles. Dayum!!! I guess they at least smartened up with the 2.0t engine and went to a timing chain, dumping the belt that needs to be changed every 60-70k miles.

Sounds like the hot ticket is manual tranny diesels. I wish they would bring over manual tranny diesel quattro Audis, but they won't. 2wd and DSG only. :madman:

At least VW has Manual diesels.



bustamove said:


> The Ni-MH and Li-Ion batteries in cars are designed to last 10 years or more. Even though the Prius has had its 10 year anniversary, those old Ni-MH batteries are still performing and owners have not had to deal with the cost of getting them replaced because the battery's lifecyle has been exhausted.


Yeah, Toyota did an amazing job with the engineering on that thing. Apart from the unintended runaway thing (and I still do not believe it was f'ing floor mats), it has been pretty flawless. I'm amazed that more of those cars aren't lining up to get new battery packs by the 10 year mark. Its actually kind of a rare thing to have to replace any of them. They are buttery smooth in the drivetrain department. My boss has a Highlander Hybrid that I drive around a lot, and it is pretty dang fast, and still returns 27 mpg, even loaded down with 500 pounds of tools I need to work on hilltop sites.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Then agian...*



FireLikeIYA said:


> You may just be a good driver and know how to utilize all of the performance that your car can offer... Yeah, I know my statement was typical forum generalization. Maybe "drivers car" should be defined. I know that when I drive a car with some power it makes all the difference in the world. My wife also drives a nice sports sedan with over 200HP and it handles great but I wouldn't define it as a drivers car as you can't even break the rear end loose.


Breaking the rear end loose is a sign that you don't know what you are doing. Anybody can stomp a pedal and jerk a wheel. Going fast and not sliding around like a teen who 'borrowed' his daddy's bishin Camero takes some finesse.

You go faster with the rubber grabbing road, not smoking tires.

Just like, my opinion, man.


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## storz (Jan 31, 2011)

Just got back yesterday from a 1500 mile road trip with the TDI, she averaged 48.9 mpg. That was from NC to MI and back, through the mountains with the AC on the entire time. Yesteday on the way back I left Detroit and didn't stop once until I got to Beckley, WV (almost 500 miles) and even then it barely took over 10 gallons of fuel.

I love my TDI - some people just don't get it I guess. 

BTW - not sure where you get the "breaks constantly" from, I've had 4 VW/Audi products and never had to do anything more than regular maintenance on any of them.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Prius $4700 higher?*



Anom said:


> I would be curious to see a maintenance cost schedule for same model years... 2002 prius v 2002 TDI and 2010 TDI vs 2010 Prius.
> 
> Considering the Prius MSRP is approximately $4700 higher then a comparable TDI.
> 
> I love my TDI's, I can do any and all maintenance without the help of any dealer or shops.:thumbsup:


How are you figuring that? The least expensive 2010 Prius (CVT) is $23520 and the least expensive 4 door TDI Golf with auto DSG is $24985.

http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/trims-prices.html
http://configurator.vw.com/ihdcc/configurator.html#10003/10003/30


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## PaulRivers (Jan 2, 2009)

Anom said:


> I would be curious to see a maintenance cost schedule for same model years... 2002 prius v 2002 TDI and 2010 TDI vs 2010 Prius.
> 
> Considering the Prius MSRP is approximately $4700 higher then a comparable TDI.
> 
> I love my TDI's, I can do any and all maintenance without the help of any dealer or shops.:thumbsup:


Consumer Reports wrote about routine maintenance on a Jetta TDI being noticeably more expensive:
http://news.consumerreports.org/car...efits-against-eventual-maintenance-costs.html

And needing specialized (though likely available) equipment to do all your own work.

_So I sent my son down to the dealer to pick up the supplies on Saturday morning (but not too early as a 17-year-old is not really conscious until noon). However, things changed a little when he called me at the dealership parts department. He said that the service staff told him that we need special equipment to change the oil on a DSG transmission. I told him to come home without the parts and we'll investigate further... I don't always trust car dealers.

After reading forums such as VWvortex and TDIclub, I learned that to change the transmission oil and filter I had to get a special filler tube and a computer scan tool to recalibrate. These two pieces of equipment cost around $250, plus the cost of the fluid and filter. The dealer quoted $350 for the transmission oil and filter and $480 for the complete service, so I was left asking myself: "Where is the financial incentive of having this energy-saving transmission and even the diesel?" Doing a quick calculation the savings I would have achieved over a gasoline-powered car getting 28 mpg have just been cut in about half due to the cost of the transmission fluid change. The DSG transmission is only adding a small percent fuel economy gain compared to a regular automatic._

Just trying to add info.


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## storz (Jan 31, 2011)

So just get a manual trans TDI - 

DSG problem solved


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## islander (Jan 21, 2004)

Anom said:


> Breaks Constantly? of the 6 TDI's between a small group of friends we have yet to have any "Break Constantly" issues.. We change our oil every 15k-18k miles with a Mobil Delvac 1 esp 5w-40 and change filters (oil, cabin, fuel).
> 
> -Replaced 1 axle assembly at 120k miles on one.
> -Replacing front brakes for the first time on another with 128k miles.
> ...


The list of frequently breaking items for these VWs is long. I owned one for 160K and can attest to:

- many of them have failing glove boxes (for a variety of reason).
- the EGR clogs with oil condensate and you kill a weekend cleaning it out, and during this job the actuator arm (plastic) invariably breaks.
- Glow plug relays, fuse, harness - take your pick...all are common hassles. 
- door handle plastic coating peels under regular use
- tuck-away cupholders fail in any number of ways
- thieves can easily break into them (well documented problem)
- door sensor modules fail, so you car doors auto-lock even when they are open
- window regulators fail sending the glass into the door at random. 
- the oil is hard to find, and expensive (especially for the PD's).
- the control arm bushings love to squeek, loudly
- they are low and have aluminum oil pans= bad combination (many were sinking hundreds into aftermarket skidplates).
- the OE shocks and struts have below average life-span - your brake dive and yaw is nausiating inside the first 40K. 
- the MAF problems...what a cluster F***.

Seriously, I could go on an on, but they already do that over on Fred's and I don't need to repeat it. Count your 6 as lucky, not the norm. The non-powertrain aspects of these VW are flat-out fragile compared to the Japanese competition. If you live somewhere without a garage for trouble shooting, the VW's get to be more hassle than joy despite holding their value really well.

Since selling my TDI, I'm into a 07 Forester and have done nothing but regular maintenance. takes plain 5W30, and the filters are in stock at all the quicky lube places. Nothing has broken, or has a bad connection. It just plain works. Only now do I realize how much fussing I was doing with the VW. Now I have more time to ride, less putzing around getting replacement parts and installing them.

The low maintenance claims for the average TDI owner is just not the norm. There's a ton of little annoying things that go wrong and that's why they keep getting hammered in the reliability report ratings....


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## Gokart2 (Jun 8, 2009)

Well, first and foremost I'd buy and American built car from an American auto company considering I'd be supporting the American economy as well as all the people who work for the company and the suppliers. Who knows, it could help your neighbor keep his job and feed his kids. Out of the two listed, for sure the TDI.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Good luck with that*



Gokart2 said:


> Well, first and foremost I'd buy and American built car from an American auto company considering I'd be supporting the American economy as well as all the people who work for the company and the suppliers. Who knows, it could help your neighbor keep his job and feed his kids. Out of the two listed, for sure the TDI.


As a pretty much lifelong Detroiter I still hear that a lot but all large car manufacturers are global not U.S based or Germany based etc.and have parts sourced from all over. A few years ago there were articles explaining how the U.S. built Toyota Camry had more U.S. content than what most people think of as the quintessential U.S. built vehicle: the Ford F-150 pickup. The Camry looks like it's still the top U.S vehicle.

The Cars.com American-Made Index


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Anom said:


> We are a GAS FREE all DIESEL HOUSEHOLD.
> 
> 2001 Jetta TDI and 2006 Jetta TDI..... :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Get the right belt, tensioner and rollers, ending with the "M" prefix for the parts, which was standard from mid 2002 on on the ALH motor, and your timing belt change goes to 100k miles, not 60K, even for automatics. This is common knowledge among TDI enthusiasts and mechanics.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

PaulRivers said:


> Consumer Reports wrote about routine maintenance on a Jetta TDI being noticeably more expensive:
> http://news.consumerreports.org/car...efits-against-eventual-maintenance-costs.html
> 
> And needing specialized (though likely available) equipment to do all your own work.
> ...


Here's some info to add to your info.... catch all the DSG oil you drain out, pour it into a 1 gallon empty oil container and look through the clear side to see what the total was that you drained... about 3.7 to 3.8 liters. Reinstall the same amount AND A PINCH MORE, MAYBE another 100cc's... done. it's not rocket science.

Or forget the DSG and just buy the 6 speed manual and save the maintenance expense. Most owners do NOT take the time to read all of the Owners Manual, or service specifications, or buy a service manual by Bentleys for a TDI. If they would, they would understand the needs of their precision German car and the standards required to maintain it. Cheap car owners and TDI's do not make good partners. TDI's are preventative mainenance whores. I would NEVER put a woman driver in a TDI, unless she is capable of changing her own motor oil and doing her own timing belt jobs, and can install a spare tire when she gets a flat. A TDI owner/operator needs to be mechanically inclined here in the USA.

Edited: to be less offensive


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

RandyBoy said:


> Here's some info to add to your info.... catch all the DSG oil you drain out, pour it into a 1 gallon empty oil container and look through the clear side to see what the total was that you drained... about 3.7 to 3.8 liters. Reinstall the same amount AND A PINCH MORE, MAYBE .1 LITER..... done. it's not rocket science.
> 
> Or forget the DSG and just buy the 6 speed manual and save the maintenance expense. Most owners are too stupid to read the Owners Manual or buy a service manual by Bentleys for a TDI. If they would, they would understand the needs of their precision German car and the standards required to maintain it. Cheap car owners and TDI's do not make good partners. TDI's are preventative mainenance whores. I would NEVER put a woman driver in a TDI, unless she is capable of changing her own motor oil and doing her own timing belt jobs, and can install a spare tire when she gets a flat.


All that points to: Crappy design.


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## storz (Jan 31, 2011)

Gokart2 said:


> Well, first and foremost I'd buy and American built car from an American auto company considering I'd be supporting the American economy as well as all the people who work for the company and the suppliers. Who knows, it could help your neighbor keep his job and feed his kids. Out of the two listed, for sure the TDI.


 There really is no such thing as an American or Japanese, or German car anymore, they are all interconnected in some fashion. Perhaps the automotive family tree can shed some light for you.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

islander said:


> The list of frequently breaking items for these VWs is long. I owned one for 160K and can attest to:
> ...
> 
> The low maintenance claims for the average TDI owner is just not the norm. There's a ton of little annoying things that go wrong and that's why they keep getting hammered in the reliability report ratings....


Hey you forgot - left rear taillight always blowing out.

Anyways, at least your VW floor mat won't kill you...


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Jayem said:


> All that points to: Crappy design.


No, it points to most owners not being equipped with common sense. Kind of like computers, garbage in, garbage out. In this case, you drain the garbage out, measure it, and replace with new fluid which will again turn to garbage in about 40k miles. Or buy a service manual, read it, and perform the task. I've owned VW product since 1977, and the Germans have designed difficulty into servicing to keep the average brainless owner out of the innards to prevent them from messing up things even worse.
Having fixed up so many other butchered mechanics work here in Calif on TDI's, I can say most people have no business doing so much as touching a wrench to anything on the motor or transmission on their cars. Volkswagens have become too complex for the average owner, due to increased government regulations on pollution control. As for VW 's failing, most of it can be blamed on VW's subcontractors, namely Bosch parts on the motor, which fail with amazing regularity,, be it their new High Pressure Fuel Pumps, or glow plugs and electrical harnesses, or Mass Air Flow Sensors or their piezo pressure sensor fuel injectors. I've owned the following, a 1996 Passat with a Pierburg MAF, 246k miles on it, never failed, a 1998 Jetta TDI, 213k miles on it, MAF never failed, and a 2002 Jetta TDI, which has had a Bosch MAF fail at 82k. Bosch is to VW electronics like Lucas was to British built cars... Prince of darkness and FAIL of epic proportions.

Bosch's business model is designed with parts with a short mean time between failures. It keeps their bottom line healthy and they have a monopoly on the parts specs. Similar to Fox and their seals and delrin bushings failing so soon. Accountants refer to it as recurring costs.

Kind of curious Jayem, how many TDI's have you owned?

Let me ask you this: when you change the transmission on you bike, ie, the chain, do you put the new chain up against the old chain, ie , measure the amount you removed, and replace with a like amount or quantity? Or is that crap design? 

Try changing the ATF on a 2008 Honda CRV. Drain about 3.5 liters, replace with same amount. Drive it through all the gears for about 10 miles. Drain again. replace with 3.5 liters, drive 10 miles to circulate throughout the torque convertor and valve body through all the gears. Drain again, refill with 3.5 liters. Drive around another 10 miles. Drain again, this time replace the crush washer. You've just replaced/wasted 12 quarts of ATF to change out about 85% of the 8 quarts the transmission holds, the other 15% of used ATF is diluted in with the new ATF you've added It's just wasted oil... how's that for crappy design, or a cheap workaround? Or pay the dealership about $180 for labor and another $60 for material? About $240 every 60k miles.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

storz said:


> Just got back yesterday from a 1500 mile road trip with the TDI, she averaged 48.9 mpg. That was from NC to MI and back, through the mountains with the AC on the entire time. Yesteday on the way back I left Detroit and didn't stop once until I got to Beckley, WV (almost 500 miles) and even then it barely took over 10 gallons of fuel.
> 
> I love my TDI - some people just don't get it I guess.
> 
> BTW - not sure where you get the "breaks constantly" from, I've had 4 VW/Audi products and never had to do anything more than regular maintenance on any of them.


Ditto. 1780 miles to and from Moab on 35.512 gallons of diesel. 50.12 MPG, 75 MPH or more everywhere it was legal. Every 10,000 miles, $25 in oil and a $7 oil filter with a topside oil change. That was also with my bike on back with the car not being aerodynamically clean. Without the bike, based on my logs, 55MPG would be expected.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Weren't all the runaway...*



pimpbot said:


> Yeah, Toyota did an amazing job with the engineering on that thing. *Apart from the unintended runaway thing (and I still do not believe it was f'ing floor mats), it has been pretty flawless.* I'm amazed that more of those cars aren't lining up to get new battery packs by the 10 year mark. Its actually kind of a rare thing to have to replace any of them. They are buttery smooth in the drivetrain department. My boss has a Highlander Hybrid that I drive around a lot, and it is pretty dang fast, and still returns 27 mpg, even loaded down with 500 pounds of tools I need to work on hilltop sites.


...Priuses determined to be driver error by analyzing the OBD computers, i.e. pressing on the gas pedal instead of the brake pedal? I don't think one was determined to be a pedal or mat issue. After all, the driver side mats are held in place by pegs I can't see one actually moving. Beyond that simply pressing hard on the brakes will cause the car to disengage power and stop. Likewise simply pressing the "off" button will do the same thing.



> James Sikes, the San Diego runaway Toyota Prius driver, filed for bankruptcy in 2008 and now has over $700,000 in debt. According to one anonymous tipster, we're also told he hasn't been making payments on his Prius. UPDATE!
> 
> We received an email earlier today from an anonymous tipster who claims James (Jim) Sikes, the driver of the runaway Toyota Prius, was in financial trouble and even behind by five months on his payments for the Prius. If that's true, it's potential motivation for wanting to find an out - any out - on paying for the vehicle.
> 
> ...


http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-fake-unintended-acceleration


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

I would say TDI's are not for everyone. Nor are VW's. They are for car enthusiasts that like to tinker on their cars. They are not for most of the older crowd or those without mechanical skills or cheap skates when it comes to maintenance expenses because they are expensive to buy parts for and maintain. Because of this, I find plenty of used TDI's with owners that can't afford to maintain them properly. Some are upside down on their used car loans. Others own it outright and just want to get out from under the repair bills. Many's the older TDI that ends up possessed by the repair shop because the owner let it go for too little service, for too long. Diesels do not break often, but when they do break, due to the robustness of the part, so follows the robustness of the price tag and the labor to get it fixed. People buy TDI's for the long haul, to run them into the ground. I'd sooner take a TDI for a spin in some spirited canyon driving, similar to the alps or the roads in Bavaria than I would a Prius, but that is just me. There is something very special about the way a german engineered car drives in the canyons or in the mountains, something any adrenaline junkie would appreciate. The question is if you can afford the price of the premium fix a german car provides, German engineering isn't cheap. VW is not The Peoples Car anymore, like it was when the kubelwagen or the Beetle came out, air cooled and simple.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

A sports car or a 4x4 can be an enthusiast car you tinker with. A diesel econobox should be bulletproof, require little maintaince, and what maintaince it does require should be simple.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*But that wouldn't fulfill the requirements*



@dam said:


> A sports car or a 4x4 can be an enthusiast car you tinker with. A diesel econobox should be bulletproof, require little maintaince, and what maintaince it does require should be simple.


...that the Veedub TDI cognoscenti have of being "special" mortals who alone can accomplish all these bizarre and technologically backwards maintenance rituals to perfection so that the great VW God from the Autobahn will bless them with an even more bountiful harvest of failed Bosch and VW branded parts to replace, with which to further hone their awesome skills.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

tl1 said:


> ...that the Veedub TDI cognoscenti have of being "special" mortals who alone can accomplish all these bizarre and technologically backwards maintenance rituals to perfection so that the great VW God from the Autobahn will bless them with an even more bountiful harvest of failed Bosch and VW branded parts to replace, with which to further hone their awesome skills.


Careful there tl1! I think I lost all 3 of my rep points on this thread alone by saying the Golf TDi was merely a vehicle to be used transportation and not a drivers car. You don't want to squander all of your rep power on "summerizing" what others are saying about themselves.:nono:


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Want to be a "buy American" guy?*



Gokart2 said:


> Well, first and foremost I'd buy and American built car from an American auto company considering I'd be supporting the American economy as well as all the people who work for the company and the suppliers. Who knows, it could help your neighbor keep his job and feed his kids. Out of the two listed, for sure the TDI.


Start driving your cars less and when it's time to buy a new one get one with better MPG, like a Japanese built Prius.  That's because our trade deficit is largely from buying foreign oil.



> By Allison Linn, senior business writer
> 
> The Great Recession has prompted many consumers to say that they want to buy more American-made products, and rely less on imports.
> 
> ...


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

FireLikeIYA said:


> Correction:
> 
> Hybrids are for transportation
> 
> ...


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

FireLikeIYA said:


> FireLikeIYA said:
> 
> 
> > Correction:
> ...


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

RandyBoy said:


> Ditto. 1780 miles to and from Moab on 35.512 gallons of diesel. 50.12 MPG, 75 MPH or more everywhere it was legal. Every 10,000 miles, $25 in oil and a $7 oil filter with a topside oil change. That was also with my bike on back with the car not being aerodynamically clean. Without the bike, based on my logs, 55MPG would be expected.


Meh, 50.12 MPG Diesel = ~44 MPG Gas in terms of oil use.


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## bustamove (Aug 12, 2004)

*Golf R Coming to the U.S.*



FireLikeIYA said:


> FireLikeIYA said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, the only drivers car that I believe VW has recently made is the R32 but sadly that is now gone to a more "economical* replacement while VW tries to accomplish its goal of becoming a world car *read boring and cheap*.
> ...


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

Killroy said:


> FireLikeIYA said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, there are some drivers cars that don't have a crazy accelerations (Miata), but the TDI is still in the SLOWEST SCCA autocross class.
> ...


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

Says it all


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## PaulRivers (Jan 2, 2009)

terrasmak said:


> Says it all


(rolls eyes)

It must be people who grew up in the 60's who want their cars to make loud car noise, as having been born way after that I'd prefer whatever the quieter car is. My ideal car would be nearly completely silent. Noise is just annoying.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

PaulRivers said:


> (rolls eyes)
> 
> It must be people who grew up in the 60's who want their cars to make loud car noise, as having been born way after that I'd prefer whatever the quieter car is. My ideal car would be nearly completely silent. Noise is just annoying.


I'm not from the 60's, and would never buy a car that is an automatic.


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

terrasmak said:


> I'm not from the 60's, and would never buy a car that is an automatic.


Never say never.

Though manuals are fun to drive, the necessity of a transmission is the weakness of the internal combustion engine. Transmissions are expensive, lower fuel economy, require maintenance and another part to fail. They also lower lap times. Electric Vehicles, which the Prius is a precursor to, wont have any transmission (see Nissan Leaf).


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Was it the turbo, maybe?*



FireLikeIYA said:


> FireLikeIYA said:
> 
> 
> > Correction:
> ...


----------



## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

pimpbot said:


> I mean, it's been a while since I drove a TDi, but I didn't find it to be gutless. Well, you got nothing up at the redline, which is much lower naturally.
> 
> I know like with my A4, if you just engage the clutch at idle and stomp the gas pedal, it doesn't really start to go until the engine hits 2500 rpm. But, if you lead the throttle a bit, let the turbo start to spool before you engage the clutch, it tears off the line. That's not flywheel energy build up, but intake pressure building to produce power. I'm not talking about redlining the engine then dumping the clutch.
> 
> ...


It's been a few years since I test drove the TDI. The problem I had with it wasn't really off the line acceleration but just a total lack of power. It seemed like once it felt like it had some juice I was up at the redline and had to shift... and that redline didnt seem to be very high (something like 3500-4000rpm?)... it also sounded rough when pushing it hard and not very inspiring.


----------



## bsdc (May 1, 2006)




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## PaulRivers (Jan 2, 2009)

bsdc said:


>


That's just a marketing video, probably paid for behind the scenes by Volkswagon, or created to be sensationalistic (sensationalism sells).

First they claim the Prius costs $30,000 which is obviously b.s. - they probably deliberately choose the absolutely highest spec'd model at the height of it's price - leather seats, gps, special rims, every overpriced luxury item they ever put on it. And that's new - I bought mine with 15,000 miles on it for $18,000.

Second, they claim that they got a combined average of 39mpg in the Prius. "Far below the epa estimates" they say.

Except that I don't even know if it's possible for me to get 39mpg in the Prius. I drive it every day - and in no way whatsoever do I use any special "techniques" or anything. I drive it exactly the same as I drove my last car. And during the summer it's not even possible for me to get below 45mpg. It's not as good in the winter, but my cousin has a Mitsubishi small suv that's newer and he says the same thing in his definitely not-hybrid car - he's getting noticeably better mileage in the summer.

The only way to get 39mpg in the Prius is to deliberately try to lower the mileage while driving it - accelerate as hard as possible, break as hard as possible, accelerate as hard as possible, etc etc. And I see later in the video they mention that they drove the less efficient "touring" editing of the Prius.

Third, they complain that it takes Prius 10.6 seconds to go from 0-60. "Oh my god, this is sooo loooong". Never mind that they just pointed out that the Volkswagon itself takes 8.9 seconds - that's a 1.7 second difference. You'll notice the classic phrasing like that the volkswagon takes "just" 8.9 seconds, while the Prius takes "almost 11 seconds". Yeah.

Their pricing is, of course, "interesting" as well. For the Jetta they casually mention that they include a $1300 tax credit. I'm sure if the Prius still had a similar credit they would say something snarky about it. At least they appear to be comparing similar models, though again - the "touring edition" is hardly the most common prius model.

Finally, since we are on a bike forum - I can fold down the rear seats and fit either of my road bikes inside my Prius. You can't do that with the Jetta. (They might fit if you removed the front tire and if the rear seats fold forward, I don't know if they do or not).

It is entirely possible that the Jetta has better handling, the handling in the Prius is not great. To be honest though, I value the ability to carry my bike, and the greater reliability in the Prius, over better handling. Consumer Reports gives my 2009 Prius a 5/5 for reliability - the Jetta tdi gets a 3/5. I have to admit, for a Volkswagon that's relatively good.


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## romanl (Jul 31, 2010)

^^ forget what they compared, its simple do your own research and compare what fits you best
Prius starts at MSR: $23,520
Jetta TDI starts MSRP $22,995
GOLF TDI starts at $23,200
so they all priced about the same, but with VW TDI's its not a base model, you do get a lot of features, and yes they are more fun to drive. while base Prius doesn't get you a whole lot.
example: base pries gets 15 inch narrow tires *(which actually help the milage, but suck when it comes to performance) GOLF gets stock 17's and they perform *(i have this car)
i still average over 41MPG over last 25000 miles, and i have fun in my car, its really fun to push it a little, something you cant really do with a pries, o i also fit 2 bikes w/ front tires off with my back seats folded.

TDI


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## PaulRivers (Jan 2, 2009)

That sounds fair to me, though I will say one thing -

I don't know what it's like on the 2010 Prius, but on the 2009 and earlier Prius's there wasn't much a whole lot of point in choosing a higher package, for better or for worse there wasn't much to get.

Navigation package? Highly overpriced (like it is in most cars), and I'd rather have it on my phone or get a much cheaper dash unit.

Interior styling? I believe all of them are the same. Actually, I always really liked the Prius interior on their base model compared to almost everything else I looked at. They really put some effort into making the interior look "modern". It's like the interior they'd put on the midrange model of most cars - above the base model, but not quite as good as the top trim level. At least on the "light interior" model that I have.

Upgraded stereo? The JBL system you could get as an "upgrade" was nothing special and not worth paying extra for. The base stereo is very solid - decent. I've recently ridden in a couple of base model rental cars and was reminded what absolutely terrible stereo systems some of them had, and how decent the one in the Prius was. That is not to say it's high end though, just decent. To be fair though, everything I've read for almost every car they suggest that getting a system installed aftermarket gets you a better system for less money on all cars.

Sunroof? The previous generation of Prius doesn't even have it for an option. Erg. I know you can now get one on the 2010 and later models.

Leather seats? You could get leather seats, though they were exactly the same as the cloth seats just with leather instead of cloth.

Basically, the base Prius came with midlevel trim kind of stuff. The good news was you didn't have to worry about missing something important (there was no level at which you didn't have power windows, or didn't have air conditioning or something silly like that that you can find on other cars).

The bad news was that if you wanted the "luxury edition" there...wasn't really one.

That's cool to hear you could fit 2 bikes in the back, though I imagine it involves a lot of rattling or blankets. I fit 2 bikes, 2 people, and 2 people's luggage for a weekend trip in the back of my Prius, though to including the luggage as well I had to take off both wheels. Here's a pic of my single bike in the back - it's a 56cm Specialized Tarmac -









One more thing though. I don't disagree that the Prius has isn't some sort of performance driving experience. Consumer Reports said this about it, and I agree -
_The Prius is not particularly agile and exhibits moderate body lean. However, it was predictable and secure in our emergency-handling tests._

But when I was car shopping I test drove some of these "fun to drive" cars. Man - the steering can be fun. But the ride - the ride was always, universally, awful. I live in Minnesota where's there's plenty of potholes, ice, frozen snow packed down on the road...the ride in any of these "fun to drive" cars should be rephrased as "fun to drive, but not fun to ride in". You felt every single bump on the road. Going over a pothole send a jolt up your spine.

I'll take a "boring but comfortable" ride over that, myself.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Yeah, seemed a bit tilted to me.*



PaulRivers said:


> That's just a marketing video, probably paid for behind the scenes by Volkswagon, or created to be sensationalistic (sensationalism sells).
> 
> First they claim the Prius costs $30,000 which is obviously b.s. - they probably deliberately choose the absolutely highest spec'd model at the height of it's price - leather seats, gps, special rims, every overpriced luxury item they ever put on it. And that's new - I bought mine with 15,000 miles on it for $18,000.
> 
> ...


I knew there was some crazy bias going on when they said the Prius was $30k, and they rounded up the 0-60 to 11 seconds.

The Prius is more of a wagon, while the Jetta is a sedan.... now, there is the Jetta Sportwagon TDi, which IIRC runs around $25k.

For an economy car, I would not complain about 0-60 times. I drove a VW Scirocco for years and 0-60 on that car was around 10 seconds with the 1.6l 80 HP engine, and I was fine with that.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Still astounding how they...*



pimpbot said:


> I knew there was some crazy bias going on when they said the Prius was $30k, and they rounded up the 0-60 to 11 seconds.
> 
> The Prius is more of a wagon, while the Jetta is a sedan.... now, there is the Jetta Sportwagon TDi, which IIRC runs around $25k.
> 
> For an economy car, I would not complain about 0-60 times. I drove a VW Scirocco for years and 0-60 on that car was around 10 seconds with the 1.6l 80 HP engine, and I was fine with that.


...outright lie about the Prius as if no one will notice but if I looked and talked like that guy I might be insecure in my manhood too and only drive cars that might have a possibility of enhancing my squashed and henpecked ego.  The Prius is optimized for _low emissions, utility and fuel economy_ not adolescent "race track on the street" fantasies guys. :ciappa:


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## BigHit-Maniac (Apr 13, 2004)

For the love of god, please don't buy a damn Prius.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*No doubt*



PaulRivers said:


> That sounds fair to me, though I will say one thing -
> 
> I don't know what it's like on the 2010 Prius, but on the 2009 and earlier Prius's there wasn't much a whole lot of point in choosing a higher package, for better or for worse there wasn't much to get.
> 
> ...


Good summary write up and an excellent point about how everyone's roads are not smooth like the desert Southwest or other sunny warm climes that get very little in the way of constant freeze/snow/ice/unfreeze/frost/salt cycles for 6 months out of the year. Give me smoothness over bumps rather than "fun to drive " any day too.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

FireLikeIYA said:


> FireLikeIYA said:
> 
> 
> > Unless you are pushing closer to 300+ HP you are not really in a "drivers" car. .
> ...


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Ok, so maybe he should have said power to weight ratio, the current miata with ~170hp does pretty well, but it weighs very little.


----------



## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Energy efficiency of cars*



pimpbot said:


> ... is more efficient than gasoline. Less COx and by-products are generated by coal in a power plant, even with transmitting the energy over hundreds or thousands of miles of power lines, than gasoline in your IC engine... by a lot... a lotta lot.
> 
> You ever wonder what that big fat radiator in the front of the car is for?


It's generally agreed that Electrics are the most _efficient_ kind of cars, even powered by coal burning power plants. Bring on the wind turbines though and we're really driving to Efficiency Town. 










*The all electric car powered by renewable wind electricity*

ERoEI for wind ~ 20, efficiency factor = 0.95
Grid transmission losses = 0.9
Battery efficiency = 0.97
Motor efficiency = 0.92
Combined efficiency = 76.3%
*
Gasoline internal combustion engine (ICE)*

Procuring oil, ERoEI = 30 (assumed), efficiency = 0.967
Refining and transport losses = 0.9
ICE efficiency = 0.4
Combined efficiency = 34.8%
*
Hydrogen fuel cell*

The calculation is based on producing hydrogen from electrolysis of water using wind power electricity and is based heavily on an analysis by Ulf Bossel (reference at end).
Wind power, as for all electric car = 0.95
Losses due to electrolysis of water = 0.7
Compression of hydrogen = 0.9
Losses during distribution = 0.9
Losses during hydrogen transfer = 0.97
Fuel cell efficiency = 0.5
Motor efficiency = 0.92
Combined efficiency = 24%
*
Bio-ethanol internal combustion engine*

ERoEI for temperate latitude ethanol ~ 1.5, efficiency = 0.33
Processing and delivery (estimate) = 0.95
ICE efficiency = 0.4
Combined efficiency = 12.5%
*
https://www.theoildrum.com/node/5101
*


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

Edmunds just posted a test of the new Prius V (bigger Prius wagon) vs. the Jetta TDI Sportwagon. They say pretty much the same stuff as here...Jetta is nicer to drive (although still an econo car), but the Prius is more cost effective.

http://www.insideline.com/volkswage...jetta-sportwagen-tdi.html#comments_sort_form1

TL1: we don't pay for wind: we pay for the turbines. The energy invested is the energy spent building the turbines and infrastructure. If you made a turbine that was half as efficient, but took half the energy to produce, it would have the same ERoEI.

I think your 40% energy estimate for ICE is wildly optimistic. It'll be closer to half that for a typical car. Your ERoEI for corn ethanol is about the most optimistic you can find, too.

Compressing hydrogen into a liquid can take as much as 1/3 of the energy, and then it loses a % or two every day thereafter to stay cool.


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## pbbreath (Dec 3, 2008)

Drive a Prius and look like a whiny puss with a liberal agenda or buy the TDi and own a nice car that is all things to all men.

My 3" lifted Golf TDi. Still gets 40mpg average. (Got 47 once but it was all freeway driving 75mph with the AC on)


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## PaulRivers (Jan 2, 2009)

pbbreath said:


> Drive a Prius and look like a whiny puss with a liberal agenda or buy the TDi and own a nice car that is all things to all men.


lol, that is friekin' hilarious. What is that, the tiniest christmas tree on top of the tiniest car I've ever seen?? hahahaha...I don't think I've ever seen someone try to insult the masculinity of Prius drivers while posting pictures of a smaller and dinkier car! lol


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Wait just a minute sir*



PaulRivers said:


> lol, that is friekin' hilarious. What is that, the tiniest christmas tree on top of the tiniest car I've ever seen?? hahahaha...I don't think I've ever seen someone try to insult the masculinity of Prius drivers while posting pictures of a smaller and dinkier car! lol


That VW's suspension is all jacked up, that automatically makes it super masculine.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Yeah some ego-wounded TDI freak...*



FireLikeIYA said:


> Careful there tl1! I think I lost all 3 of my rep points on this thread alone by saying the Golf TDi was merely a vehicle to be used transportation and not a drivers car. You don't want to squander all of your rep power on "summerizing" what others are saying about themselves.:nono:


...dinged my rep for that comment. Must suck having such a fragile self-image. Eff 'em though take a VW joke.


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## mrsa101 (Jul 19, 2011)

if you wanna be eco friendly buy a used car, ill go buy a used suburban and be less harmful to the environment than the stuck up snob buying his new prius. 
my advice, dont buy the prius, honestly i cant think of a less interesting car to drive. it represents everything i dont like about cars and the people who drive them represent everything i dont like about people.


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## PaulRivers (Jan 2, 2009)

mrsa101 said:


> if you wanna be eco friendly buy a used car, ill go buy a used suburban and be less harmful to the environment than the stuck up snob buying his new prius.
> my advice, dont buy the prius, honestly i cant think of a less interesting car to drive. it represents everything i dont like about cars and the people who drive them represent everything i dont like about people.


I'm pretty sure I would not enjoy meeting a snob like yourself. The people who aren't snobs? They don't care as much as you seem to about what people drive. They also don't say silly non-sensical rhetoric like "ill go buy a used suburban and be less harmful to the environment" - it doesn't make sense, it's obviously just wishful thinking.

I'm sorry, but snobs always hate it when their might be competition to their own snobbery. If they're car snobs, they hate the other cars snobs in another category. If high priced sedans are in, then pickup trucks start to become "in", the sedan crowd hates that "the cool" thing might be changing and what they have won't elevate them to their current level of snobbery that they enjoy. They hate competition.

And that's why they start making stuff up about it. They don't like that another class of something might compete with their own snobbery. They're like a bunch of popular high school girls who are threatened by a new pretty girl showing up so they start calling her a ****.

I haven't ever actually met any of these supposed snobs who drive a Prius. I'm sure there's some somewhere though. I've definitely met a few snobs who drive pickups, luxury sedans, or performance cars though.


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## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

mrsa101 said:


> if you wanna be eco friendly buy a used car, ill go buy a used suburban and be less harmful to the environment than the stuck up snob buying his new prius.
> my advice, dont buy the prius, honestly i cant think of a less interesting car to drive. it represents everything i dont like about cars and the people who drive them represent everything i dont like about people.


Uh, take the bus or bicycle if you're thinking about pollution.









Honestly though some of the people talking about their TDI here are a little messed up that way also!


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Troll*



mrsa101 said:


> if you wanna be eco friendly buy a used car, ill go buy a used suburban and be less harmful to the environment than the stuck up snob buying his new prius.
> my advice, dont buy the prius, honestly i cant think of a less interesting car to drive. it represents everything i dont like about cars and the people who drive them represent everything i dont like about people.


Shouldn't you be holding up a misspelled misinformed sign at a Glen Beck rally?

I'm guessing this is RIS, back from the ban Pete style.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Heh...*



tl1 said:


> ...dinged my rep for that comment. Must suck having such a fragile self-image. Eff 'em though take a VW joke.


I'll bump you back up. :thumbsup:

*bump*


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*That would make sense*



pimpbot said:


> Shouldn't you be holding up a misspelled misinformed sign at a Glen Beck rally?
> 
> I'm guessing this is RIS, back from the ban Pete style.


Since mrsa is a creepy, destructive flesh eating bacteria resistant to the usual antibiotics. Thanks for the rep! :thumbsup:


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## keene1 (Jan 24, 2011)

VW

There are many 200-300k tdi's still on the road going just fine. 

My R32 has the dsg trans and it's a very good auto but I have had several manual Audi/VW diesels when living in europe and your best bet is a manual. 4motion/quattro is nice but thirsty if you can do without it (the tdi block over the driving front wheels rarely slips)

I wish I had bought a tdi....


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Nah...*

4-motion/Quattro hardly sucks anything at all. It only adds 150 pounds to the car, and the estimated MPG for an A4 manual quattro/FWD is 1mpg difference. It sucks a tad more, but not enough to really notice. For me, I much prefer AWD to one wheel drive. VW's FWD traction control is pretty dang close to useless.


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

i don't know if a prius would have survived the trip to Nationals/Vacation. i am pretty sure i have now permanently compressed the springs on the rear of the TDI as even after a full day of being unloaded, the ride height isn't what it used to be in the rear.




























it was worth it though...


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## PaulRivers (Jan 2, 2009)

whybotherme said:


> i don't know if a prius would have survived the trip to Nationals/Vacation. i am pretty sure i have now permanently compressed the springs on the rear of the TDI as even after a full day of being unloaded, the ride height isn't what it used to be in the rear.


Your vacation looks nice.  But - lol - it sounds like your VW didn't exactly survive the trip itself either... 

Your pictures show highway and then some offroad - was there a lot of offroad you drove through for the trip that isn't on the pictures? Looks kinda fun...


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## stully05 (Feb 10, 2008)

tdi


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*I'm sure...*



whybotherme said:


> i don't know if a prius would have survived the trip to Nationals/Vacation. i am pretty sure i have now permanently compressed the springs on the rear of the TDI as even after a full day of being unloaded, the ride height isn't what it used to be in the rear.
> 
> *sweet pix*
> 
> it was worth it though...


... it would have been pretty much the same thing. Not like either car has a ton of payload weight capacity.

Heh... I once carried 800 pounds of dirt in buckets in my GTi.


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

PaulRivers said:


> Your vacation looks nice.  But - lol - it sounds like your VW didn't exactly survive the trip itself either...
> 
> Your pictures show highway and then some offroad - was there a lot of offroad you drove through for the trip that isn't on the pictures? Looks kinda fun...


We were camped seven miles or so down a dirt road. Lack of off-road capability definitely limited our choices, but it all worked out fine.

Still wouldn't have wanted to pay the gas bill for the truck!


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## flatinit (Jul 27, 2011)

I've had a few VW's over the last 15 years, and having driven many different cars find them (and Audi) to be in a league of their own!


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*srsly*



flatinit said:


> I've had a few VW's over the last 15 years, and having driven many different cars find them (and Audi) to be in a league of their own!


I mean, if you just look at the numbers, they don't stand out.

If you go see one, sit in one, drive one... that is where they shine.

Reliability is not bad, but is not as good as Toyota or Honda, but I would still rather own and drive a VW or Audi.


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## Rearwheelslider (Jul 15, 2011)

I am a Toyota technician. You will wish you bought a Toyota after the TDI ****s up in five years. Prius is a very reliable vehicle.


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## whybotherme (Sep 12, 2008)

Rearwheelslider said:


> I am a Toyota technician. You will wish you bought a Toyota after the TDI ****s up in five years. Prius is a very reliable vehicle.


i vowed to never purchase another toyota after my Taco burned an exhaust valve and took a crap at 60k miles for no good reason (design flaw on the head) and cost me dearly. loved my '84 4x4 toy, too bad they don't make em like that anymore. both my chevy trucks have lasted longer than that toyota and they are supposed to be crap according to anyone on message boards. :eekster:

my purchase was narrowed down between the Honda CRz and the the TDI. TDI won. have not owned a VW (except a beater bug for a short period of time) so we will see how it goes...


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

Rearwheelslider said:


> I am a Toyota technician. You will wish you bought a Toyota after the TDI ****s up in five years. Prius is a very reliable vehicle.


Nice fear mongering.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Toyota supports new MPG standards*

While VW does not. I guess they are afraid of having to make everyone drive a TDI. 

I do agree with them though about how ridiculous it is to require cars to improve fuel economy more than light trucks and SUVs are required to.

*Toyota Said to Support U.S. Fuel-Economy Plan After Concerns*



> Toyota Motor Corp. (7203) plans to say this week it supports a proposal by President Barack Obama's administration to boost U.S. mileage standards to 54.5 miles per gallon by 2025 after initially expressing concerns, according to people familiar with the carmaker's position.
> Toyota, based in Toyota City, Japan, and some European carmakers have argued that Ford Motor Co. (F), General Motors Co. (GM) and Chrysler Group LLC are gaining an advantage because fuel- economy standards for light trucks will increase more slowly than for cars, said three people, who declined to be identified because the talks aren't public. Obama is scheduled to make an announcement about the fuel standards on July 29.
> The three U.S.-based carmakers agreed to the mileage standard earlier this week, people said.
> For the past two decades, Corporate Average Fuel Economy, or CAFE, rules were easier on Japanese carmakers because they already sold smaller, more efficient vehicles and had to make fewer adjustments to meet a corporate fleet average. GM, Ford and Chrysler sold bigger vehicles and had to do more to be in compliance, said Maryann Keller, principal of a self-titled consulting firm in Stamford, Connecticut.
> "The Japanese were always the winner on CAFE because the standards allowed them to make more less-efficient vehicles," said Keller, who served on a National Academy of Sciences panel on fuel economy in 2003. "Now they will have to start really improving the fuel economy of their cars."


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-27/toyota-a-holdout-on-u-s-54-5-mpg-fuel-plan.html

*Volkswagen objects to new U.S. fuel economy standards*



> Germany's Volkswagen Group doesn't endorse the U.S. government's proposal to increase mileage standards, saying Friday that it places "an unfairly high burden on passenger cars."
> Volkswagen broke with other automakers, including Japanese and other German companies, in speaking out against the plan.
> Volkswagen U.S. spokesman Tony Cervone said passenger cars would be required to achieve 5 percent annual improvements, and light trucks 3.5 percent annual improvements.
> "The largest trucks carry almost no burden for the 2017-2020 time frame, and are granted numerous ways to mathematically meet targets in the outlying years without significant real-world gains," he said in a statement.
> ...


http://www.detnews.com/article/2011...en-objects-to-new-U.S.-fuel-economy-standards


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Mind reading Prius bicycle*

Top that one VW TDI! 

*Mind-Reading Prius Bike Can Shift Gears with Just a Thought!*

The Prius Projects Concept Bike has reached its final stage, and it has just been revealed that Toyota and Parlee Cycles are working with DeepLocal to bring some incredible technology to the green bicycle. Using a neuron helmet, the rider of the Prius bike can _shift gears with their mind_!

More: http://inhabitat.com/the-prius-project-concept-bike-can-shift-gears-with-just-a-thought/


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*More on the Parlee Prius bike*

Pretty interesting video.

http://www.toyotapriusprojects.com/#/011


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## Killroy (Mar 9, 2006)

New CAFE rules for 2025: How 54.5 mpg generates a lot of numbers (and opposition from VW)


It looks like the TDI will need to double its fuel efficiency for VW to meet future CAFE requirements. Some automakers are embracing this, but I bet VW will try and sue there way out of this, or pay the fines.


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## Leopold Porkstacker (Apr 21, 2010)

Cajun Rich said:


> VW TDI VS Prius


Bought a 2005 Prius back in 2004. We'd been looking at the stickshift TDI Jetta wagon, but the JD Powers and Consumer Reports ratings listed pretty much all watercooled VWs (the aircooled ones were amazingly diehard and reliable) from 1981 - present as having a really low owner satisfaction rating in terms of failures of electrical components and other stupid crap. 73,000+ miles later, it has been a really low-cost car, NEVER had ANY unexpected service trips to the dealership, just regular maintenance, and averaging 49MPG within that 73,000+ miles isn't too bad, all things considered.

So, the drawbacks of the Prius are: crappy handling, massive understeer hampered by the crappy-ass traction "control" and ABS, cockpit rearview mirror gets in the way of tall drivers (creates a MASSIVE blind spot), is fodder to redstate ******** with jacked up 4x4s for unnecessary road rage and intimidation, is not very safe in the event of a crash. Pluses: decent mileage if you drive it right (does the best during warm weather, best I've ever managed was 57.4MPG in 280 miles of driving--wife drove car after that and brought mileage average back down below 50MPG), carries small things. Yep, that's it.

If only we had access to DECENT diesel sedans and wagons here in the United States - I'd love to have the Jaguar twinturbo diesel RWD stickshift wagon, and perhaps a small diesel VW Lupo hatchback (74MPG).


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## DarkoMTB (Jun 29, 2009)

I haven't read any of the other posts, just the title and I have to say tdi. nobody with full use of their brain would want a prius to carry bikes around unless they like to be laughed at. Yea they get great mpg's but they are just dumb and are only successful because hollywood stars are image seeking suckers. If my car were to blow up tomorrow, i hope not, i would go out and buy a jetta sportwagon tdi, Turbos are always better =)


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## PaulRivers (Jan 2, 2009)

Yaaaaaaaaawn.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*i agree with some of that*



Leopold Porkstacker said:


> Bought a 2005 Prius back in 2004. We'd been looking at the stickshift TDI Jetta wagon, but the JD Powers and Consumer Reports ratings listed pretty much all watercooled VWs (the aircooled ones were amazingly diehard and reliable) from 1981 - present as having a really low owner satisfaction rating in terms of failures of electrical components and other stupid crap. 73,000+ miles later, it has been a really low-cost car, NEVER had ANY unexpected service trips to the dealership, just regular maintenance, and averaging 49MPG within that 73,000+ miles isn't too bad, all things considered.
> 
> So, the drawbacks of the Prius are: crappy handling, massive understeer hampered by the crappy-ass traction "control" and ABS, cockpit rearview mirror gets in the way of tall drivers (creates a MASSIVE blind spot), is fodder to redstate ******** with jacked up 4x4s for unnecessary road rage and intimidation, is not very safe in the event of a crash. Pluses: decent mileage if you drive it right (does the best during warm weather, best I've ever managed was 57.4MPG in 280 miles of driving--wife drove car after that and brought mileage average back down below 50MPG), carries small things. Yep, that's it.
> 
> If only we had access to DECENT diesel sedans and wagons here in the United States - I'd love to have the Jaguar twinturbo diesel RWD stickshift wagon, and perhaps a small diesel VW Lupo hatchback (74MPG).


The part about not being safe is only somewhat true for the earlier ones that don't have airbags all around. If you can get 50 MPG average in our generation of Prius you're doing pretty well. Any higher than that requires special driving measures. In any case you need to know what you're doing and actually *try* to get over 55 MPG average.


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## bustamove (Aug 12, 2004)

Killroy said:


> New CAFE rules for 2025: How 54.5 mpg generates a lot of numbers (and opposition from VW)
> 
> 
> It looks like the TDI will need to double its fuel efficiency for VW to meet future CAFE requirements. Some automakers are embracing this, but I bet VW will try and sue there way out of this, or pay the fines.


VW issued a statement last week that they don't agree with the proposed CAFE standards for 2025. Their understanding was that the CAFE rules don't apply enough pressure on the light truck segment and they are more polluting than passenger cars.

With America's love for SUVs and crossovers, he might be right. Link will take you to the official press release on the VW press site.

http://media.vw.com/press_releases/statement-by-tony-cervone-executive-vice-president-communications-volkswagen-group-of-america-regarding-proposed-cafe-standards


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