# 2020 bikes all so expensive



## -d-a-v-e- (Oct 29, 2017)

Does anyone else feel the 2020 bikes are a lot more expensive than previous years? Look at the spec you get on the new Giants, Specialized, Trek, Norco for example. These bikes are a lot more expensive than previous years and the components are becoming cheaper and lesser quality. Also the new Trek Fuel EX 9.8 is $1000 AUD more expensive than last year. Mid-priced mtbs are now pushing premium price however the quality of the components is decreasing as a trend such as SX/NX Eagle and Rockshox 35 Forks/ Fox Rhytms etc being sold on more expensive bikes. Is there a reason for this or are bike manufacturers just getting greedy? I thought the introduction of the budget components would bring prices of bikes down, not increase prices and offer lower spec.

These big brands lost my business. I'm now buying Canyon.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

It's all to do with trade relations with China. That's where 99% of the parts are made or parts of parts. So everything costs more than it used to. That's my apolitical answer.


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

I ride rigid SS 99% of the time anyways, but I have officially bowed out of the full suspension market at this point. You can't touch anything for under $3500 these days, and that is with junk wheels and a junk drivetrain. I used to have no problem spending $3000 or so on a full squish when they came with XT, but dropping that much coin for something with NX or lower and Formula hubs just isn't worth it. 

I suppose if I were the kind of person that spent a ton of time researching every little micro change in geometry and getting excited about it then maybe I would feel different, but honestly I just want to ride my bike. I don't care if you increased the reach by 1.2mm and slackened the head tube by .5 degrees. These things are not improving my riding experience, and therefor are not worth an extra $500-$1000.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Can someone provide examples? Is this a problem specific to the United States or is it global now? How much of this is just inflation in general and how much of it is something deeper?


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## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

Its the tariffs that are affecting the prices, although the president said that China is paying for the tariffs.
Example, my company has some parts made in China, only because to have those same parts made here are at least 50% higher priced. We received a letter from our Chinese supplier that any new orders would include a 25% increase due to the tariffs, which we will absorb a small percentage and pass along the rest to the consumer. This will have a major impact on some of our sales.


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## Mike Aswell (Sep 1, 2009)

Yeah...I'll very honestly admit that I don't necessarily fully understand it all but I have heard anecdotal stories about bike companies that just recently moved production from Taiwan to China and basically are getting burned by tariffs and have no choice but to pass on price increases. 

Either way, there's no question that the ceiling is way higher now -- meaning top of the line builds are crazy expensive for incremental gains (and frankly the pricing just follows down from there, so everything is more expensive). Ten years ago I would not have really thought we would be talking about builds being over $10,000 but here we are.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

MTBs *are* too expensive, it is tough for a novice to get into the sport.

However, if you are smart about it, you can save a lot of money and still ride a good bike. Ride used, buy unknown brands, buy bikes that are "last year's model" when they are on sale. Don't waste money on name brand riding kit, wear wicking tee shirts and flannels, and a pair of hiking baggies with a pair of bike shorts underneath. No need to spend $100 on Fox shorts. Etc, etc.

For example, I saw this bike at a local REI last week. $2100. Yes, $2100 is a lot of dough, but this is a lot of bike as well: https://www.rei.com/product/146073/ghost-framr-47-al-bike

You don't have to spend $5000, you could rip any trail or bike park on that bike.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

The 2020 Giant Trance 29 Pro 1 is $5200 in the U.S. (cheaper than the 2019 was).

The 2019 Giant Trance 29 Pro 1 was $5400, I think....though now it shows it was $5250 - but it's on sale for $4462.99 (weird price, great value!)

The Pro 2 is also on sale in the 2019 flavor (and the 2020 model is cheaper than the 2019 was as well).

There are some pretty great sales going on, now.

But, there are some absurdly expensive builds out there, for sure. Anything with Eagle AXS is ridiculously expensive....the groupset alone is $2000!


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

I just bought and Ibis Ripmo GX build. Seems to have been last of the 2019 builds as shortly after I got it price when up by $200 or so. Frame only price is the same, but the GX build went up and some parts swapped. I noticed my frame says "Made in Vietnam". So I wonder if pricing change was due to components from Sram, shimano, etc all made in china and taking into account tariffs (or expected tariffs), but no change in frame since it is not from china. 


Even so bike prices are sky high, but there are two reasons for that. 1) bikes are getting better so more technology drives up costs 2) Consumers are still paying. I can say since my personal economy is doing well I could afford to drop that kind of money on a "toy". If we as consumers stop buying then bike pricing will be forced to change.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Most cost effective and motivational healthcare I ever bought......
Never understood how the same people who love taxes hate tariffs.....
I view paying a higher tariff on Chinese imported bikes as much more Patriotic than buying a flag......


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Someone please find a try apples-to-apples comparison. Find a bike from 2019 and the 2020 model that have a comparable frame and component spec. Have the prices gone up significantly? Some of the price increases you see are because newer bikes have fancier parts on them.

Joe above me is right though. Keep all this in perspective: the bicycles we're talking about are luxury items that only 1% of the world's population can even dream of owning. The prices are high partially because people are willing to pay that much, that's how a market works. The prices are as low as they are partially because manufacturers find workers who are willing to work for peanuts in factories that are often subject to lax environmental and safety regulations. Keep that in mind before you get to feeling entitled and upset.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

I'm with SingleSpeedSteven above.

What pisses me off most is the high cost, *combined with all the SRAM **** that is attached to all these bikes*. My XO Eagle drivetrain on my Druid is pure **** compared to the 11 speed XT Shimano drivetrain on my Honzo. That SRAM drivetrain is a disincentive for me grabbing the Druid over the Honzo. Same goes for the Guide Ultimates versus the XT 4 pots (and no - mine do not have a wandering bite point).

Getting an NX drivetrain and Level brakes on bikes in the $5,000 range is laughable.

Unfortunately, it looks like SRAM still owns the OEM market for the 2020 releases.It just adds insult to injury when you have to rip and replace, thereby adding to an already obscenely high initial cost.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Do American manufacturers like Guerrilla Gravity and Moots have to raise prices? Or are they still subject to tariffs on raw materials? Or is the market for raw materials going up regardless of origin?


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

honkinunit said:


> MTBs *are* too expensive, it is tough for a novice to get into the sport.
> 
> However, if you are smart about it, you can save a lot of money and still ride a good bike. Ride used, buy unknown brands, buy bikes that are "last year's model" when they are on sale. Don't waste money on name brand riding kit, wear wicking tee shirts and flannels, and a pair of hiking baggies with a pair of bike shorts underneath. No need to spend $100 on Fox shorts. Etc, etc.
> 
> ...


I truly believe that the mtb market is massively inflated, for one reason or another. I don't buy the "it's too expensive for beginners" argument though. There are quite a few lower level hardtails and single speed bikes that you can buy off the shelf that are plenty affordable for people to jump into the sport. What's too expensive, are the bikes that the industry (and fellow mtbers if we are being honest) are telling new riders they need.

When I first got into mountain biking, I bought a cheap SS Cannondale and rode it until I knew for sure if I enjoyed the sport or not. Somehow, the industry has convinced that new riders that they NEED a $3500 full suspension to get the full experience. Which is total nonsense.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

honkinunit said:


> MTBs *are* too expensive, it is tough for a novice to get into the sport.


mtb's are kind of expensive but a novice can get into it for $1,000 or less no problem. "Needing" a $4,000 bike is a first world problem for sure.



mack_turtle said:


> Do American manufacturers like Guerrilla Gravity and Moots have to raise prices? Or are they still subject to tariffs on raw materials? Or is the market for raw materials going up regardless of origin?


Raw materials are affected but they also need all the components. Tariffs have for sure raised bike prices significantly.



OzarkFathom said:


> I view paying a higher tariff on Chinese imported bikes as much more Patriotic than buying a flag......


...of course


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

JoePAz said:


> I noticed my frame says "Made in Vietnam". So I wonder if pricing change was due to components from Sram, shimano, etc all made in china and taking into account tariffs (or expected tariffs), but no change in frame since it is not from china.


I think the SRAM manufacturing is in Taiwan. Also, Giant moved manufacturing there as well, to avoid tariffs.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I'm with SingleSpeedSteven above.
> 
> What pisses me off most is the high cost, *combined with all the SRAM **** that is attached to all these bikes*. My XO Eagle drivetrain on my Druid is pure **** compared to the 11 speed XT Shimano drivetrain on my Honzo. That SRAM drivetrain is a disincentive for me grabbing the Druid over the Honzo. Same goes for the Guide Ultimates versus the XT 4 pots (and no - mine do not have a wandering bite point). ....


I used to be Shimano drivetrain guy. Had them for years. Then got used bike with a 3x9 about 3.5 years ago. Front XTR shifter/derailuer, but SRAM 9speed X01 rear. Man that was slick. Then picked up another bike with 3x10, but converted to 1x10. SRAM X01 rear again. Really liked it. Then moving to 1x11 I did alot of research and number crunching. The SRAM 10-42 X01 and up cassettes are amazing. Sure expensive, but light and very effective. That 10t is really worth a lot despite needing new hub drivers. And XD works well too. So given that I wrote off Shimano as the 11-46 cassette is both heavy and poor ratios. But I have never liked Sram brakes. I have run then on some bikes and ditched them all for Shimano XT or XTR. My Ripmo has GX drivetrain and I was concerned, but frankly it works nice. Sure the GX cassette is heavier than XO1, but for big bike like the Ripmo I can live with it. I have no experience with the new microspline shimano stuff, but I hope it works well because Sram needs solid competition in the 12speed market. If not they can just charge what they want. The better Shimano stuff gets the better pricing will be as they compete.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

MSU Alum said:


> I think the SRAM manufacturing is in Taiwan. Also, Giant moved manufacturing there as well, to avoid tariffs.


I don't want to get political, but that is part of the idea of tariffs on china only. Drive manufacturing to other locations. If you can avoid the tariff by going to Taiwan and other guys are still in China you might get cost advantage.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

JoePAz said:


> I don't want to get political, but that is part of the idea of tariffs on china only. Drive manufacturing to other locations. If you can avoid the tariff by going to Taiwan and other guys are still in China you might get cost advantage.


I wasn't talking politics. Just pointing out where this stuff is made. My SRAM chain was made in Portugal and my Ice Tech rotors in Japan. I quit looking after that. But you are absolutely correct, the manufacturing goes to low cost alternatives when possible.


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## arkenzo (Aug 3, 2010)

It’s not the tarrifs folks, it’s inflation. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

I work in the building products (construction) industry. The tariffs introduced in the past 2 years have increased the costs of imported aluminum/steel products 20%+. U.S. sourced metals have increased prices resulting from increased demand. These tariffs may be impacting bicycle costs now. 

Regarding the recent, new China tariffs, I have not seen any material cost increases yet.


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

arkenzo said:


> It's not the tarrifs folks, it's inflation.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gas is $2.40 per gal, 2% milk is $1.69 per gal...knock on wood. Not really experiencing inflation in the midwest. Also, the 9spd SRAM 1070(?, maybe GX/X9) rear cassette is currently selling for $65 here. Just had to replace the drivetrain on my old HT. The original cassette (circa 2011?) was $135.

IMO, the higher prices are owed to tarriffs and the cost of engineering new bling.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

Why buy a mountain bike at $4000 when you just need to spend a couple extra bucks and get an ebike that has a motor and does half the work?


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

I like my Pivot Shuttle a lot, and was thinking that my next pedal mtb ought to be the non-assist version of the same bike, which is essentially the Pivot Switchblade.
I priced out one equipped the same as my Shuttle. DAMN! It would cost quite a bit more than the Shuttle cost me. I did get a sweet deal on the Shuttle, but still...


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## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

I own a furniture store, the tariffs have raised prices on almost everything. A lot of manufacturers get parts out of china, and there fore price increase have occurred across the board for me. yes the tariffs do get passed on to the consumer, I just look at how much I pay for the good and do my markup on that. Some of my suppliers are splitting it with me, some are not. either way a price increase is a price increase. 

technically speaking inflation is the increase in price on a tangible item. Gas and food are not in the equation for inflation.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I seriously doubt that the tariff affect the prices.

Chinese vendors are cashing in the the hype of tariff.



Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Picard said:


> I seriously doubt that the tariff affect the prices.
> 
> Chinese vendors are cashing in the the hype of tariff.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


Do you have even the slightest idea how a tariff works? There are people in here who own businesses and work with raw materials saying that they are directly affected. I doubt the people in this thread are in cahoots with China.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

tim208 said:


> Gas and food are not in the equation for inflation.


Nor is housing, which has been inflating faster than anything else.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Train Wreck said:


> Why buy a mountain bike at $4000 when you just need to spend a couple extra bucks and get an ebike that has a motor and does half the work?


https://www.rei.com/product/146080/ghost-hybride-slamr-s17-electric-mountain-bike

$3500


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I don't trust those Chinese vendors at all. 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## Joe Mama (Jan 19, 2004)

Bikes have been expensive, and getting progressively more so, long before anyone started worrying about tariff increases. When all the US bike companies moved production to low cost centers overseas they didn't reduce their prices or pass any savings to the consumer, they just increased profit margins and prices continued to rise. Strangely companies like YT that do direct sales are thriving in this environment with excellent bikes for great prices that are frequently on sale. Maybe the traditional bike distribution model the big brands use is to blame?


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## knutso (Oct 8, 2008)

Joe Mama said:


> Bikes have been expensive, and getting progressively more so, long before anyone started worrying about tariff increases. When all the US bike companies moved production to low cost centers overseas they didn't reduce their prices or pass any savings to the consumer, they just increased profit margins and prices continued to rise. Strangely companies like YT that do direct sales are thriving in this environment with excellent bikes for great prices that are frequently on sale. Maybe the traditional bike distribution model the big brands use is to blame?


Yep. I think the idea of walking into a bike shop and buying a bike is becoming more and more of a luxury. There used to be few alternatives. Now with virtually everyone on the internet; e-tailers, direct brands and used markets are booming.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

honkinunit said:


> https://www.rei.com/product/146080/ghost-hybride-slamr-s17-electric-mountain-bike
> 
> $3500


Makes me wish I wanted an ebike! That's a smokin' deal.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Joe Mama said:


> Bikes have been expensive, and getting progressively more so, long before anyone started worrying about tariff increases. When all the US bike companies moved production to low cost centers overseas they didn't reduce their prices or pass any savings to the consumer, they just increased profit margins and prices continued to rise. Strangely companies like YT that do direct sales are thriving in this environment with excellent bikes for great prices that are frequently on sale. Maybe the traditional bike distribution model the big brands use is to blame?


Very good points.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

mtnbkrmike said:


> My XO Eagle drivetrain on my Druid is pure **** compared to the 11 speed XT Shimano drivetrain on my Honzo.


I'll happily pay you a fair price for your XO1 Eagle group so you can buy some 11-speed Shimano stuff to replace it.


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## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

I'll stick with my 2013 $2600.00 Stumpy and be just fine.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

arkenzo said:


> It's not the tarrifs folks, it's inflation.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I assume this is a joke or clearly you don't know the current inflation rate.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Yes, they are more expensive. They are also way more awesome. You should also count your blessings that some of the suspension patents like the Horst have expired so you can get a cheap bike with great suspension kinematics.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Schulze said:


> Yes, they are more expensive. They are also way more awesome. You should also count your blessings that some of the suspension patents like the Horst have expired so you can get a cheap bike with great suspension kinematics.


I agree with this.


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## mLeier (Oct 17, 2017)

My 2020 Liv Intrigue Advanced 1 was $100 cheaper than the 2019 model and came with better brakes!


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## tvrbob86 (Aug 5, 2005)

tim208 said:


> technically speaking inflation is the increase in price on a tangible item. Gas and food are not in the equation for inflation.


Wrong.


andytiedye said:


> Nor is housing, which has been inflating faster than anything else.


Wrong.

"The CPIs are based on prices of food, clothing, shelter, fuels, transportation, doctors' and dentists' services, drugs, and other goods and services that people buy for day-to-day living."

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.nr0.htm


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

It's a misconception that the better technology in bikes drives up costs. Ever buy a TV lately? They are way better than just 10 years ago and a ton cheaper.

Bikes are expensive because the sport has blown up and lots of people with money are buying these bikes. It's become a luxury sport. In fact, if your bike is priced too low, it won't sell because people will think it's junk due to the low price tag.

Take for example the people dumping on NX drive trains. NX drive trains work really well, and are quite durable. Their primary disadvantage is weight (steel parts instead of aluminum/titanium), and the GX shifter might be slightly crisper. But's it's cheaper, so people assume it's junk.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

mack_turtle said:


> Do American manufacturers like Guerrilla Gravity and Moots have to raise prices? Or are they still subject to tariffs on raw materials? Or is the market for raw materials going up regardless of origin?


So, that's an interesting question. In theory, the idea of making materials that originate in China more expensive (raw material or finished product) means that buying the alternative (theoretically a US made product or product of US origin) becomes more attractive. In reality what happens is it puts cushion in the market that lets everyone raise prices, or lets an area with higher labor cost get into the game at the same price point as China, perhaps. The down side is, lets say a factory in Vietnam starts producing cranks and says, yes, we can provide this at the same price as the factory in China. So you now have a company that has been using a factory in China that is now using a factory in Vietnam, you're getting the same crank at the same price, right? Nope. The quality controls simply aren't the same, in some cases even down to the level of the tooling in the factory. So, in short, there's no simple answer to your question - it's very complex, but even if GG's frames are, lets say, produced from materials originating somewhere other than China, they still have to buy the same components to build the bike, the majority of which are....yep...made in China.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

kpdemello said:


> It's a misconception that the better technology in bikes drives up costs. Ever buy a TV lately? They are way better than just 10 years ago and a ton cheaper....


I would say Technology makes TVs cheaper to produce whereas bike technology makes them more expensive to produce. In the former it's electronics fab and software. In the later it's mechanical parts (and, regrettably, added electronics and software).


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

*8*



OzarkFathom said:


> Most cost effective and motivational healthcare I ever bought......
> Never understood how the same people who love taxes hate tariffs.....
> I view paying a higher tariff on Chinese imported bikes as much more Patriotic than buying a flag......


Huh? Paying the Chinese more money for the same product due to tariffs is somehow patriotic? That's crazy talk. The patriotic thing to do is NOT pay the higher, tariff-driven prices of Chinese goods, and buy from other cheaper sources, preferably American made.

Just in case you actually believe that nonsense, China has some flags to sell you. They also make MAGA hats and Trump ties.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

veloborealis said:


> Huh? Paying the Chinese more money for the same product due to tariffs is somehow patriotic? That's crazy talk. The patriotic thing to do is NOT pay the higher, tariff-driven prices of Chinese goods, and buy from other cheaper sources, preferably American made.


I'm going to quote this so we can all enjoy it again and again, but not for the reasons the poster intended I'm sure.


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## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

Inflation vs. Consumer Price Index (CPI), How They Are Different
The difference between the Consumer Price Index (CPI) and inflation is a source of confusion for many. At its easiest level, the Consumer Price Index in the United States is used to calculate inflation. Thus, their similarities are better understood based on that relationship even if the details of their differences are not.

Looking at definitions, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the United States Department of Labor defines the CPI as:

"a measure of the average change over time in the prices paid by urban consumers for a market basket of consumer goods and services."

It defines inflation as:

"the overall general upward price movement of goods and services in an economy."

Unfortunately, those definitions do not thoroughly describe the nuances between the Consumer Price Index and inflation. To do that, we must elaborate on both concepts with additional detail.

To begin with, let’s look solely at the Consumer Price Index. The CPI can be viewed as a number used to measure change. In the United States, the Bureau of Labor Statistics gathers the average prices paid by consumers for hundreds of different items each month. The average is then compared to a reference base period. That base period is an arbitrary date set by the federal government. Currently, the US uses the average of goods and services from 1982 to 1984 and considers that our reference base period with a factor of 100.

We can then use the monthly CPI published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics to determine differences between two points in time and calculate inflation for that period. For example, let’s compare the CPI of January 2000 with that of January 2010.

The CPI of January 2000 was 168.800 with the index for January 2010 listed as 216.687.

To make the calculations, we take the more recent CPI, subtract the oldest CPI, and then divide by the oldest CPI. Using our numbers shown above, it would be 216.687, minus 168.800, divided by 168.800. This equals .2837.

Inflation is always considered as a percentage, so we take that number and multiply it by 100 to get 28.37%. Thus, the inflation rate from January 2000 to January 2010 was 28.37%.

By looking at these calculations, it becomes easier to understand that the Consumer Price Index is a factor in determining inflation.

they are very similar but different. i took this off of google.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

Paying the Chinese more?
I wasn’t aware that the tariffs the US placed on Chinese imports went to China.
Educate me Velo.


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## bwana (Oct 8, 2012)

Just bought a set of michelin ewild tires. $41 from germany. Same tire costs $89 in US. So 2 tires plus shipping(DHL) <$100. I dont know if michelin manufactures in china and pays tariffs to bring them to US. But I wonder how tariffs would affect all that stuff I get from alibaba. Instead of prime 1 day delivery i get it in 1 week with a lot of pretty chinese characters on the package. I would expect direct retail to easily switch to alibaba as a result of tariffs.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Ride/buy within budget, pretty simple.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

OzarkFathom said:


> Paying the Chinese more?
> I wasn't aware that the tariffs the US placed on Chinese imports went to China.
> Educate me Velo.


This is why the Chinese love Trump so much. He raises tariffs so they get more money. In return, their putting his hotels on those new islands they're building in the South China Sea. When this news breaks its going to be yuuuuuge.


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## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Paying the Chinese more?
> I wasn't aware that the tariffs the US placed on Chinese imports went to China.
> Educate me Velo.


Tariffs aren't paid to China. China pays them and passes the increased cost of doing business back to the importers, who pass it on to you. Educate me about how paying a higher tariff on Chinese imported bikes is patriotic.

After further research, it appears the price of Chinese-made American flags haven't been impacted by the trade war.The base can still afford to wave them and they're cheap enough to burn at ANTIFA riots. Win-win.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

veloborealis said:


> Tariffs aren't paid to China. China pays them and passes the increased cost of doing business back to the importers, who pass it on to you.


Sadly that's not 100% accurate. Depending on the terms, FOB namely, if the importer is an American company that company ends up paying the tariff directly.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## yamaha267 (Aug 29, 2010)

Get a better job, save your money and buy what u can afford.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Blatant said:


> I'll happily pay you a fair price for your XO1 Eagle group so you can buy some 11-speed Shimano stuff to replace it.


PM sent (although the plan is to replace everything with a 12 speed XTR drivetrain and, possibly, Saint brakes, if I don't stick with XTRs). If you are serious about buying it, I will give you a much more than fair price.

As for bike costs, I would love to pick up the new Kona Unit X. Unfortunately, not only is it not inexpensive (for a rigid), but it is covered in entry level SRAM **** that I would feel compelled to replace.

For me, it's not so much the rising bike cost that's killing me, but the corresponding drop in component spec. Come on Shimano. Surely to Christ you can get in the game at the OEM level.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> You can't touch anything for under $3500 these days, and that is with junk wheels and a junk drivetrain.


That just isn't true. Sure, you won't find full XT and carbon wheels for $3000, but you never could. Even back in the '90s, $3000 would get you a flexy, poorly performing frame with bushings and a crappy shock, maybe an XTR rear derailleur and LX everything else, and a wheelset that in no way, shape or form compares with a budget wheelset today. This topic keeps coming up, but it is a flawed argument. The Giant Stance 1 I purchased for $1600 is so much better than a $3000 bike from 2009. No doubt about it.

2000 Giant XTC FS $1300
https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/value-guide/product/46206/

2010 Giant Trance X4 $1300
https://www.bikepedia.com/QuickBike/BikeSpecs.aspx?item=19390

2020 Giant Stance 2 $1550
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/stance-2-2020

If you look at the specs, they are as comparable as you can be for the time period. The suspension on the 2000 was higher end, but still had less adjustments and didn't work as well as the Suntour stuff on the 2020. The 2010 had Maestro, but not enough of a difference in performance to limit the rider. $250 in 10 years is noticeable, but not enough to justify the complaints. Especially considering the performance increase.

Of course, there were full-suspension bikes at a grand back in the day, but they weren't considered truly trail-ready. Bikes direct has that covered these days, but the bikes work much better than a 2010 Giant Yukon.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

honkinunit said:


> MTBs *are* too expensive, it is tough for a novice to get into the sport.


I completely disagree. Base models today are way better than base models from 2009, for roughly the same price.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

It seems this opine for "drop in components spec" is referring to SRAM, with their bush league shifters and boat anchor cassettes. It's sad to see a $3000+ bike at the shop and the shifter has no multi release, no 2 way release, and no instant release. It's like shifting a Wal Mart bicycle. If a SRAM shifter is like driving the van the painter guys own, with the ladders on top and badly in need of a front end alignment, operating a Shimano XT shifter is like being chauffeured in a Bentley with the air conditioned seats, little fold out tray to hold your scotch, while your hand is down the pants of an early 20s something wearing something that weighs 46g but retails for $4000. I run XTR though.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I completely disagree. Base models today are way better than base models from 2009, for roughly the same price.


Mountain Bikes today are over complicated, far too fragile and increasing a portfolio segment to holding companies and free advertising for your favorite sugary beverage. Our segment of cycling almost found sure footing with a re-reemergence of rigid bikes but - offshore carbon manufacturing, dropper post seattube routing, and a head tube badge of a rider rolling doobage with a squirel all needed to make the scene. 
This post is only worth what you paid for it, the latest mountain bike model are asking far too much in order to hit the trailhead.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

The only over-complicated complaint I have is the service interval on my Fox shocks. If I follow their rec for the full service, I need to send in my DPX2 every 4.5 months. That's almost $500/yr plus down time just to ride my bike. Hmm, that road bike is looking attractive for a ride today....


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Haint said:


> Mountain Bikes today are over complicated, far too fragile and increasing a portfolio segment to holding companies and free advertising for your favorite sugary beverage. Our segment of cycling almost found sure footing with a re-reemergence of rigid bikes but - offshore carbon manufacturing, dropper post seattube routing, and a head tube badge of a rider rolling doobage with a squirel all needed to make the scene.
> This post is only worth what you paid for it, the latest mountain bike model are asking far too much in order to hit the trailhead.


No. You spend what you want to hit the trail head. You can get a better bike for the same price now than you could 10 or 20 years ago. You want to get a mountain bike that is capable of trail riding for $8000? You got it. You want a mountain bike capable of trail riding for $400? You got it. I don't get the whining about pricing. You couldn't get a trail-worthy bike for $400 in 2005. You can now.

I also disagree about bikes today being too fragile. While dropper posts have been a reliability issue and suspension needs regular maintenance, everything else is so much more reliable than it used to be. You don't need a dropper, rear shocks are much more reliable than they used to be, and suspension forks are quite reliable if maintained. Of course, open bath and elastomers have all but disappeared, which needed very little maintenance. What else are you saying is too fragile and complicated? An extra hole in the frame for a dropper? Were you complaining of water bottle cage bolt holes? Cheap carbon? Don't buy it. Head tube badges? Really?


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

So what's the main reason? No doubt that bikes today are better than bikes in the past, but it seems like they are more expensive.
Inflation?
Tariffs/ trade troubles
Golficiation (industry arbitrarily inflating prices just because)?
Perception (riders see others and advertising that makes them think they have to spend more)?
Stagnant wages?
People just being cheap bastards?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Sadly that's not 100% accurate. Depending on the terms, FOB namely, if the importer is an American company that company ends up paying the tariff directly.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


Yup, most American's companies are paying the tariffs and passing the cost onto consumers. And the expected income is less than we have had to subsidize the farmers. Trade wars are never good. Cadillac sells more cars in China than in the USA. A strong China is good for the USA and vice versa.

And also, if paying taxes is good, is someone who has not paid federal taxes for 20+ years unpatriotic?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Mountain biking is a bargain for what you get far as I'm concerned. And a new $2500 bike is better than a 7 year old $10k bike. 
The problem comes in where people that don't have a lot of money feel they deserve to have the absolute top of the line. This isn't true in any part of life such as housing automobiles, and so on.
There is nothing wrong with being broke. I spent most of my life there. And I certainly believe that everyone regardless of their lot in life deserves a good education and good healthcare. But you don't have an automatic right to the finest most expensive things in life. That's just not how the world works. Nor should it.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

mack_turtle said:


> So what's the main reason? No doubt that bikes today are better than bikes in the past, but it seems like they are more expensive.
> Inflation?
> Tariffs/ trade troubles
> Golficiation (industry arbitrarily inflating prices just because)?
> ...


They aren't more expensive! Maybe $50 increase over the last 10 years for a bottom of the line big brand mountain bike, but there are even cheaper options out there than there were 10 years ago from places like bikesdirect.com and Dick's Sporting Goods. Why do people think they are more expensive? I really don't understand.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Vespasianus said:


> Yup, most American's companies are paying the tariffs and passing the cost onto consumers. And the expected income is less than we have had to subsidize the farmers. Trade wars are never good. Cadillac sells more cars in China than in the USA. A strong China is good for the USA and vice versa.


Is it really and truly at the bottom of it a trade war though? Personally, I don't think so. Most companies really would rather do business somewhere other than China, or that side of the world. The hidden costs and logistical complexities are immense. However, in the race to the bottom China remains the only player for certain goods. A large reason they are able to do so is a captive economy that allows for currency manipulation. Stop the currency manipulation and other markets open up to source goods from.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

[SUP] [/SUP]


Schulze said:


> It seems this opine for "drop in components spec" is referring to SRAM, with their bush league shifters and boat anchor cassettes. It's sad to see a $3000+ bike at the shop and the shifter has no multi release, no 2 way release, and no instant release. It's like shifting a Wal Mart bicycle. If a SRAM shifter is like driving the van the painter guys own, with the ladders on top and badly in need of a front end alignment, operating a Shimano XT shifter is like being chauffeured in a Bentley with the air conditioned seats, little fold out tray to hold your scotch, while your hand is down the pants of an early 20s something wearing something that weighs 46g but retails for $4000. I run XTR though.


Nicely put. And accurate AF.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

The United States can't maintain its' prosperity without China, and China can't prosper without the United States. We are so reliant on each other that we might as well merge into a single country. Electing Trump was such a big deal, because he wasn't a career politician. That is causing a lot of issues, because he is messing with that critical relationship. America is not, and will not be self-reliant. That ship has sailed, unless the average citizen really wants to take a step back in the lifestyle department. Trump is taking that first step, so it will be interesting to see how the American citizen reacts. Apparently, complaining about a few more dollars on non-necessities like bicycles indicates that many people are not quite ready for self-reliance.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

mountainbiker24 said:


> The United States can't maintain its' prosperity without China, and China can't prosper without the United States. We are so reliant on each other that we might as well merge into a single country. Electing Trump was such a big deal, because he wasn't a career politician. That is causing a lot of issues, because he is messing with that critical relationship. America is not, and will not be self-reliant. That ship has sailed, unless the average citizen really wants to take a step back in the lifestyle department. Trump is taking that first step, so it will be interesting to see how the American citizen reacts. Apparently, complaining about a few more dollars on non-necessities like bicycles indicates that many people are not quite ready for self-reliance.


A fair assessment. I'm of the opinion that (in the trade relationship) China is more reliant on the U.S. than the other way around, from an existential standpoint, but Americans have come to the conclusion that a 3% increase in the cost of an iPhone is an existential threat.....so I suppose that puts us on a more even footing.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

MSU Alum said:


> A fair assessment. I'm of the opinion that (in the trade relationship) China is more reliant on the U.S. than the other way around, from an existential standpoint, but Americans have come to the conclusion that an iPhone going from $999 to $1029 is an existential threat.....so I suppose that puts us on a more even footing.


Agreed. When it comes to survival, the United States could do it without China. China would survive without the U.S., but the average Chinese citizen would suffer tremendously. Of course, the U.S. would almost certainly exploit some other country, and the Chinese elite would be just fine, just like things were a hundred years ago.


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## Andrew8404 (Nov 20, 2011)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I ride rigid SS 99% of the time anyways, but I have officially bowed out of the full suspension market at this point. You can't touch anything for under $3500 these days, and that is with junk wheels and a junk drivetrain. I used to have no problem spending $3000 or so on a full squish when they came with XT, but dropping that much coin for something with NX or lower and Formula hubs just isn't worth it.
> 
> I suppose if I were the kind of person that spent a ton of time researching every little micro change in geometry and getting excited about it then maybe I would feel different, but honestly I just want to ride my bike. I don't care if you increased the reach by 1.2mm and slackened the head tube by .5 degrees. These things are not improving my riding experience, and therefor are not worth an extra $500-$1000.


Um, geo has improved riding experience....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

My neighbor just got into mountain biking this season and paid around $500 for a Scott, 29", hardtail. It has all the usual parts like mechanical disc, 3 x 9, Suntour fork, etc. I think it was one model year old but he bought from a local shop and likes what he got.

Its heavy but he doesn't know that and I don't tell him. The parts are on the lower end of things but I don't tell him that either. 

He just rides along behind me and smiles.

I'm the one who will pay 10 times as much as him for my next bike. I'll smile too.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Actually, China is developing a lot more trade partners other than the US. The Chinese refer to Trump as a "paper tiger".


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

China can produce cheap widgets because, in part, they are irresponsible toward the environment in their industrial practices. If you care about Planet Earth, it is in your interest to help "motivate" China away from its current path.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Schulze said:


> China can produce cheap widgets because, in part, they are irresponsible toward the environment in their industrial practices. If you care about Planet Earth, it is in your interest to help "motivate" China away from its current path.


That's been changing. As a population's standard of living rises, people start to demand better environmental practices. Remember that the US was the same way when we went through growth, Pittsburgh was so polluted that street lights stayed on 24 hours.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

bingemtbr said:


> Gas is $2.40 per gal, 2% milk is $1.69 per gal...knock on wood. Not really experiencing inflation in the midwest. Also, the 9spd SRAM 1070(?, maybe GX/X9) rear cassette is currently selling for $65 here. Just had to replace the drivetrain on my old HT. The original cassette (circa 2011?) was $135.
> 
> IMO, the higher prices are owed to tarriffs and the cost of engineering new bling.


That expensive bike isn't so expensive on the coast where gas is pushing $4.00 a gallon and poor people make six figures.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> The United States can't maintain its' prosperity without China, and China can't prosper without the United States. We are so reliant on each other that we might as well merge into a single country. Electing Trump was such a big deal, because he wasn't a career politician. That is causing a lot of issues, because he is messing with that critical relationship. America is not, and will not be self-reliant. That ship has sailed, unless the average citizen really wants to take a step back in the lifestyle department. Trump is taking that first step, so it will be interesting to see how the American citizen reacts. Apparently, complaining about a few more dollars on non-necessities like bicycles indicates that many people are not quite ready for self-reliance.


I am so sorry.

If needing to put a face to posts in _this thread_, a fried chicken grease smeared face always would be yours.

But, it clearly is not Fried Chicken.

That is Duck. Such grasp of micro- and macro economics the Duck Grease is part an overall complexion.

There's no Political postings allowed on site - if you'd not cleaned house with that reply to my commissioned post (just 1% btw)... eh not have given it a second-thought.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Haint said:


> I am so sorry.
> 
> If needing to put a face to posts in _this thread_, a fried chicken grease smeared face always would be yours.
> 
> ...


Ok. Just curious... Did you single my post out because I said you were wrong?


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Agreed. When it comes to survival, the United States could do it without China. China would survive without the U.S., but the average Chinese citizen would suffer tremendously. *Of course*, the U.S. would almost certainly exploit some other country, and the Chinese elite would be just fine, just like things were a hundred years ago.





mountainbiker24 said:


> Ok. Just curious... Did you single my post out because I said you were wrong?


No - I will single you out now though for your insisting to trope away things for which - outside glaring news headlines - you have no understanding of.

And - should humility remain lost upon you here - go and explain w/ brevity using 'Of Course' as had in this thread. Information such as unified zoned economics, futures-of and, functionality will be a help. Avoid shoe-gazing.

This is a big chance for your content here - just don't act a pundit.

Go!!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Lots of reasons for rising prices but tariffs are for sure responsible for a recent jump. Jimmy Carter once said that tariffs only hurt the poor. you may disagree with his politics but he is a wise man.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

OzarkFathom said:


> Most cost effective and motivational healthcare I ever bought......
> Never understood how the same people who love taxes hate tariffs.....
> I view paying a higher tariff on Chinese imported bikes as much more Patriotic than buying a flag......


Astute point on loving taxes and hating tariffs.

The distribution of a tax can result in winners and losers, whereas the tariffs increase costs to anyone consuming. I'd guess that the pro-tax are likely much more in favor of higher taxes because they stand to benefit from redistribution, whereas, when they go to Walmart or amazon and everything is now more expensive, because so much consumer goods are imported from China, they scratch head and say WTF?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

mack_turtle said:


> Do American manufacturers like Guerrilla Gravity and Moots have to raise prices? Or are they still subject to tariffs on raw materials? Or is the market for raw materials going up regardless of origin?


Depends where they source aluminum? Initially Canadian aluminum was exempt, not sure if that applies today?

But there is also a relative price difference that isn't clear. There used to be aluminum frame makers in Oregon and washington, maybe even Northern CA? My understanding is that the demand for those products cratered due to carbon and long before tariffs.

If a brand like GG sourced aluminum that was exempt from tariffs then it may not matter, so long as overall demand for that source does not increase significantly. Although they might try increasing prices to see how much customers are willing to pay?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

cjsb said:


> Astute point on loving taxes and hating tariffs.
> 
> The distribution of a tax can result in winners and losers, whereas the tariffs increase costs to anyone consuming. I'd guess that the pro-tax are likely much more in favor of higher taxes because they stand to benefit from redistribution, whereas, when they go to Walmart or amazon and everything is now more expensive, because so much consumer goods are imported from China, they scratch head and say WTF?


Who's benefiting most now from redistribution? Definitely not me, maybe you but statistically unlikely. I'm for fair distribution.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Haint said:


> No - I will single you out now though for your insisting to trope away things for which - outside glaring news headlines - you have no understanding of.
> 
> And - should humility remain lost upon you here - go and explain w/ brevity using 'Of Course' as had in this thread. Information such as unified zoned economics, futures-of and, functionality will be a help. Avoid shoe-gazing.
> 
> ...


Stop pretending to be intelligent. You haven't said anything of substance. Move along.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Stop pretending to be intelligent. You haven't said anything of substance. Move along.


As a Wise Person once has said - 'When I passed you, you were really flying'.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Whatever. I apologize for disagreeing with you and hurting your feelings.


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

Generally speaking I think frame prices have done better than inflation. Plenty of good options available for $2,999, which is the price carbon frames have been for 5 years or so. I think the Chinese and Taiwanese have gotten efficient in their production to hold prices at $3K. (yes, Yeti and others costs a lot more).

I put some of the blame on the OEM's. Yes, complete builds are getting very expensive and as I point out above I don't think its because huge price increases on frames. I would not be suprised if the OEM's are sticking it to the bike companies like they are to us. SRAM, Shimano, DT no longer allow shipments from Europe. Parts from Europe (if they would ship) are 30-35% less after factoring in exchange rate than they are in the US. On top of no cheap parts from overseas, SRAM have gotten very agressive with price controls and no longer allow coupon codes (thankfully Shimano does). I wonder if SRAM who basically owns the OEM market is screwing over the manufactures in the same manner.

If I can buy a complete GX kit from Europe for $350, what is a bike company paying?


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Whatever. I apologize for disagreeing with you and hurting your feelings.


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## OzarkFathom (Jul 2, 2019)

*"I'm for fair distribution."*

LMAO!


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## -d-a-v-e- (Oct 29, 2017)

I know bikes are getting better and better every year and the bikes of today are far superior to those even 5 years ago. However, I only got into MTB a few years ago and in that time I've seen the prices skyrocket even more than the already ridiculous levels. The mid-priced bikes of 2020 are now often running budget components at higher price points. In my time MTBing I've seen the prices go up and the component quality go down. Doesn't make sense as more people are riding MTB now than ever before. I'm happy to pay big bucks for the good gear as long as I feel like I'm getting good value and not being bent over.

It's not just USA either. I live in Australia and the prices of bikes here are increasing a lot with spec going down. It won't be long until budget components are sold on $5k bikes like the new Rockshox Gold 35 fork and Sram SX/NX Eagle etc.


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## -d-a-v-e- (Oct 29, 2017)

mLeier said:


> My 2020 Liv Intrigue Advanced 1 was $100 cheaper than the 2019 model and came with better brakes!


Not in Australia. The RRP of 2020 Liv Intrigue Advanced 1 is $6,499 AUD.
The RRP of 2019 Liv Intrigue Advanced 1 is $6,299 AUD.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

OzarkFathom said:


> *"I'm for fair distribution."*
> 
> LMAO!


Glad I could help. I can see how you might find that hilarious given that our tax structure will never be fair.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

Specialized and Loic Bruni snagged World Champ's with an aluminum bike, while continuing an established method for welding-improvements from another older-than-Sam Hill brand - Cannondale - and keep doing things for Bicycling.

Mountain Bike - it's marching toward recession. Needlessly over built frames requiring levels of overhead which are probably greater than some small countries GDP for a Year. What front suspension came about from Dave Weagle - really, _really_ looks created as an Elephant and, watch who stands close. **** if I'd realized a similar position I'd find a rubber raft to bail out of too.

The sport has run its course within retail - now just possessions waging battles on the Internet, creating land-access conflicts, causing some creepy PM's from total strangers like what had been sent at 8:00am today to me - some wannabe Mac Mittens answering phone calls from Taiwan's President between posts, building dollhouses, all while posting a reverting 'stance' upon China in an hour's time??
I mean - what the ****? Yeah - that's going to be fine and good if no one puts up with someone's Brass Tacks over pride issues.


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## PuddleDuck (Feb 14, 2004)

Rev Bubba said:


> My neighbor just got into mountain biking this season and paid around $500 for a Scott, 29", hardtail. It has all the usual parts like mechanical disc, 3 x 9, Suntour fork, etc. I think it was one model year old but he bought from a local shop and likes what he got.
> 
> Its heavy but he doesn't know that and I don't tell him. The parts are on the lower end of things but I don't tell him that either.
> 
> ...


This :thumbsup:


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Haint said:


> Specialized and Loic Bruni snagged World Champ's with an aluminum bike, while continuing an established method for welding-improvements from another older-than-Sam Hill brand - Cannondale - and keep doing things for Bicycling.
> 
> Mountain Bike - it's marching toward recession. Needlessly over built frames requiring levels of overhead which are probably greater than some small countries GDP for a Year. What front suspension came about from Dave Weagle - really, _really_ looks created as an Elephant and, watch who stands close. **** if I'd realized a similar position I'd find a rubber raft to bail out of too.
> 
> ...


Err, what are you saying?


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Haint said:


> Specialized and Loic Bruni snagged World Champ's with an aluminum bike, while continuing an established method for welding-improvements from another older-than-Sam Hill brand - Cannondale - and keep doing things for Bicycling.
> 
> Mountain Bike - it's marching toward recession. Needlessly over built frames requiring levels of overhead which are probably greater than some small countries GDP for a Year. What front suspension came about from Dave Weagle - really, _really_ looks created as an Elephant and, watch who stands close. **** if I'd realized a similar position I'd find a rubber raft to bail out of too.
> 
> ...


Reading that, I don't know whether to feel really stupid, or sane.


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## bigdrunk (Feb 21, 2004)

Google translator doesn't seem to be working on that one.



Vespasianus said:


> Err, what are you saying?


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## 834905 (Mar 8, 2018)

Andrew8404 said:


> Um, geo has improved riding experience....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you're talking about a 2009 bike versus a 2019 bike then yes, I agree with you 100%. If you're talking about a 2019 versus 2020 bike, I am going to disagree with you. If it improved your riding experience at all, it's so marginal that the vast majority of riders would never notice. They make very minor adjustments to HTA and reach and then market it like they just re-engineered the whole bike.


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## Andrew8404 (Nov 20, 2011)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> If you're talking about a 2009 bike versus a 2019 bike then yes, I agree with you 100%. If you're talking about a 2019 versus 2020 bike, I am going to disagree with you. If it improved your riding experience at all, it's so marginal that the vast majority of riders would never notice. They make very minor adjustments to HTA and reach and then market it like they just re-engineered the whole bike.


I'm talking about the newer geo that's steeper SA, longer wheelbase, longer reach, and slacker HA. Those have slowly increased the past few years but took a bigger jump when Transition and a few other companies really took it to the next level 2 years ago which has made a big difference in DH and climbing ability.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bloodninja (Jul 11, 2012)

SingleSpeedSteven said:


> I truly believe that the mtb market is massively inflated, for one reason or another. I don't buy the "it's too expensive for beginners" argument though. There are quite a few lower level hardtails and single speed bikes that you can buy off the shelf that are plenty affordable for people to jump into the sport. What's too expensive, are the bikes that the industry (and fellow mtbers if we are being honest) are telling new riders they need.
> 
> When I first got into mountain biking, I bought a cheap SS Cannondale and rode it until I knew for sure if I enjoyed the sport or not. Somehow, the industry has convinced that new riders that they NEED a $3500 full suspension to get the full experience. Which is total nonsense.


I kind of feel like the MTB industry, IMBA trail design, Youtube, Pinkbike, etc. is telling MTB'ers that we need to be f'ing sending it or we're not really mountain bikers, and that's where the $3500 full squish comes in.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

Haint said:


> Specialized and Loic Bruni snagged World Champ's with an aluminum bike, while continuing an established method for welding-improvements from another older-than-Sam Hill brand - Cannondale - and keep doing things for Bicycling.
> 
> Mountain Bike - it's marching toward recession. Needlessly over built frames requiring levels of overhead which are probably greater than some small countries GDP for a Year. What front suspension came about from Dave Weagle - really, _really_ looks created as an Elephant and, watch who stands close. **** if I'd realized a similar position I'd find a rubber raft to bail out of too.
> 
> ...


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## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

There's always Bikes Direct I guess. :/


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

Ahh - being confused is part of an image onsite. Took that hard of a look at state-of-state and, it's this being added; Instant archive material.

At least there'd not been commanding a 'move on' due to sub-prime Intel to contribute. That - made me feel so badly a short read of post history was called for.

From the user having concerns w/ replies in the thread referring to single hose-routing as a hindrance to quality framesets, a portrayal of careless 'lifestyle' emulating from within mountainbike, or even direct PM a following morning to br considered in another's thoughts. Certain arguements with users cite "essence of Mountain Biking" and E-Bike being sustainable if only to ruin the training tool Strava.

How internal cable routing was assumed to conflict with 'essence', out of interpretation - maybe I should have PM'd the next day asking of Health issues, Medical Response services to be had. Still 'feeling bad', see.

Having a downtube incorporate seatpost cabling - it's not what was to be gleaned from quick n' salty reply. Fully Rigid, farmed-out Carbon Fiber with swedged-for-clearance seattube, dropped chain stay for short rear-center inclusion, and basically removing the heritage 'essence' of mountainbike and bicycle design - tube welding - is focus area and, it is a quality, a skill and slowly but surely becoming lost if no longer recognized in MTB.

Contrary to the pundit of the day, voicing a conservative viewpoint within a liberal envine occurred, only to be 'wrong' and, yet for all the wrong reasons. Just reading the thread and what replies mount, it's a one man army pride movement. A tangible quality to what local culture base, atmosphere or riding skillset can be had gets reduced to Internet Status, Reputation and social media depression but, is also Public Record and this clash in this thread may have Bovinity Davinity in jeopardy - there's a post up and in there about attacking Cattle with small arms for alignment of personal-politics.

Pride - just no need to join the movement.

Two of the largest and most powerful Company in Bicycling started business by Mountain Bike - Specialized and Trek. Coming into most mountain bike social meed's as of late have to require any rider who had adopted core value to toss everything in foundation and argue. Regardless the foolishness, it's argue amongst themselves and 'move on'

Since one poster seems to have a need for validation:









State of state, an example-of.









Efforts to cease unhinged, defiant forum content and, generalized.









Random Access Memory.

It's all good. Grab 'em by Debussy or whatever if that's your thing. At least no one is exploiting public social media platforms here, free advertising crowd-funding with an upstart. Or, some nose candy.









(...you know who's a hot piece of ass?? That Dick Cheney...)


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I will be selling my kidney to buy wreckoning 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Yep, no politics here... and in _*general*_ no less :eekster:

It's offensive to my sensitive nature. Yo Klurejr, why don't you bust in here and shut this bad boy down before someone gets hurt?!!


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## be1 (Sep 4, 2013)

Haint said:


> Ahh - being confused is part of an image onsite. Took that hard of a look at state-of-state and, it's this being added; Instant archive material.


yes. exactly. glad someone had the guts to finally say it....


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

be1 said:


> yes. exactly. glad someone had the guts to finally say it....


Not trying to run on derailed-thread counts. A conversation such as this cannot have better grounding than what's relevant in today's economic climate, regardless of how maintaining an Economy is interpreted...



J.B. Weld said:


> Yep, no politics here... and in _*general*_ no less :eekster:
> 
> It's offensive to my sensitive nature. Yo Klurejr, why don't you bust in here and shut this bad boy down before someone gets hurt?!!


...because of things which we have no control over.

It's mountainbike24 who wanted to preach Voodoo Economics within this thread and move on.
Another 'Notification' is asking to be opened, likely the 2nd issuance from the inner-sanctum of privilege... keep this Sharpie Infestation open - maybe another PM can also lead to a deeper shade of understanding to just what it is we are permitted to do with ourselves. Publishing that nonsense for certain, but we need clarity! Our people need clarity!!


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Haint said:


> It's mountainbike24 who wanted to preach Voodoo Economics within this thread and move on.


https://i.chzbgr.com/full/6548602880/h7CECD4A9/


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I thought you guys are wealthy. Most of you guys can easily buy an sworks bike.



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## crash41984 (Aug 20, 2019)

Political BS aside, OP ain't wrong. I bought my 2019 Kona one week after the 2020's were released. Price increased $300.00. They added a cheap dropper, but also took advantage of SRAM's newest (lowest) spec drivetrain.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

I'm seeing NX on 4k bikes.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

crash41984 said:


> Political BS aside, OP ain't wrong. I bought my 2019 Kona one week after the 2020's were released. Price increased $300.00. They added a cheap dropper, but also took advantage of SRAM's newest (lowest) spec drivetrain.


That's one example, and I'd be interested in seeing the full specs. Giant Stance stayed about the same with better spec. Sounds like you should have shopped around.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Sell your kidney 

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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I'd like to sit in on a discussion between Haint and Ninjichor.

Ehhhh, maybe not.


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## jcd46 (Jul 25, 2012)

Nat said:


> I'd like to sit in on a discussion between Haint and Ninjichor.
> 
> Ehhhh, maybe not.


Add Picard to make things more interesting.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

I am convinced Haint is a computer science student's bot project. Probably Chinese.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

The best (worst?) part is that of those three I understand Picard the most.


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

crash41984 said:


> Political BS aside, OP ain't wrong. I bought my 2019 Kona one week after the 2020's were released. Price increased $300.00. They added a cheap dropper, but also took advantage of SRAM's newest (lowest) spec drivetrain.


Supply and demand. People are buying most of those bikes and not even blinking. So they will keep selling them at that price.

If Fox was smart they would charge $1500 for a Fox 36. They would get it. MTBers like to think we are independent thinking and rebels, while we are just sheep. Wealthy sheep it turns out, but just sheep.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

I'm glad you didn't use the term "sheeple," which is the term of choice for people who like to think they're not followers themselves.


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## crash41984 (Aug 20, 2019)

mountainbiker24 said:


> That's one example, and I'd be interested in seeing the full specs. Giant Stance stayed about the same with better spec. Sounds like you should have shopped around.


True. I just really wanted that Wozo.


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## crash41984 (Aug 20, 2019)

Vespasianus said:


> Supply and demand. People are buying most of those bikes and not even blinking. So they will keep selling them at that price.
> 
> If Fox was smart they would charge $1500 for a Fox 36. They would get it. MTBers like to think we are independent thinking and rebels, while we are just sheep. Wealthy sheep it turns out, but just sheep.


All correct, especially the part about fancying ourselves rebels. Ha! However, it's just more explanations as to why OP's observation is true. MTBs are getting more expensive without a corresponding increase in quality or components.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

honkinunit said:


> I am convinced Haint is a computer science student's bot project. Probably Chinese.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Haint said:


> Ahh - being confused is part of an image onsite. Took that hard of a look at state-of-state and, it's this being added; Instant archive material.
> 
> At least there'd not been commanding a 'move on' due to sub-prime Intel to contribute. That - made me feel so badly a short read of post history was called for.
> 
> ...


 Most of those things were English words. Some even formed complete sentences. Kudos to you.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Most of those things were English words. Some even formed complete sentences. Kudos to you.


Shred, Dude! Glad there's at least one who 'gets it', 'cause - I'd really feel so bad if the fun in this thread had to end.

Bravo!!


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Perhaps all the rich guys here should subsidize 50% cost for poor members of the forum 

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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

Picard said:


> Perhaps all the rich guys here should subsidize 50% cost for poor members of the forum
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


That sounds like a great idea, Bernie. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Picard said:


> Perhaps all the rich guys here should subsidize 50% cost for poor members of the forum


Lead by example. Post your results.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Schulze said:


> Lead by example. Post your results.


I need subsidy.

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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

I've worked at a LBS for 20 years pt. In 2010'ish there was an email printed out from Trek. It stated that in order for them to be "competitive" with the competition they needed to move most production to china with the exception of P1 bikes... 

Next year's bike prices went UP!

So a $2,500 bike was now $2,800
$4,000 to 4,500 and so on. 

They slashed cost, cut US jobs and increased prices. 

WE LOSE. Us the riders. 

I wonder if the industry (and other industries) had a pow-wow and decided to increase by X% even though it only affects them by Y% (Y being lesser than X)?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Boycott mountain biking!!!


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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

Something to think about-

Years ago I read a post about an Iron Horse Sunday that was supposed to be built in the USA, but it had a "Made in China" sticker on it. A guy that worked at Iron Horse replied that the bike WAS made in the USA (in Washington state I believe) and shipped to China for assembly. Due to customs or some weird reason, they HAD to put this "made in china" sticker on it. The bikes then got shipped back to the west coast and transported to the East Coast in Avoca Pennsylvania to be distributed. Iron Horse was from Brooklyn.
I mentioned Avoca as the distribution for an important reason. The bike shop I worked at is in Scranton. I ordered a Sunday and IH said their distribution center was in Avoca! Bill said that he lives in Moosic and would pick it up. IH said no, that there aren't pick-ups and they'll ship it. I paid $115 shipping for a bike that was 15 minutes away. 

How much money is being saved by going overseas? How many times was I charged for worldwide shipping and shipping in general? How much of that $4,500 was for shipping? 

$4,500 for that bike was competitively priced. 


Ttyl, Fahn


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

people still buy high end full builds?


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

LarryFahn said:


> I've worked at a LBS for 20 years pt. In 2010'ish there was an email printed out from Trek. It stated that in order for them to be "competitive" with the competition they needed to move most production to china with the exception of P1 bikes...
> 
> Next year's bike prices went UP!
> 
> ...


On your last point, there likely is a lot more demand based pricing, especially given that the people who are dedicated mountain bikers have incomes a lot higher than national average. Not a conspiracy, just companies getting more crafty with pricing.

On the other hand, buy direct brands can offer some great pricing alternatives. Some brands that still offer popular type bikes in ALuminum can also provide better pricing options. Wit the China tariffs i see some brands re-introducing Aluminum (Taiwan or other non-China source) along with Carbon.

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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

LarryFahn said:


> Something to think about-
> 
> Years ago I read a post about an Iron Horse Sunday that was supposed to be built in the USA, but it had a "Made in China" sticker on it. A guy that worked at Iron Horse replied that the bike WAS made in the USA (in Washington state I believe) and shipped to China for assembly. Due to customs or some weird reason, they HAD to put this "made in china" sticker on it. The bikes then got shipped back to the west coast and transported to the East Coast in Avoca Pennsylvania to be distributed. Iron Horse was from Brooklyn.
> I mentioned Avoca as the distribution for an important reason. The bike shop I worked at is in Scranton. I ordered a Sunday and IH said their distribution center was in Avoca! Bill said that he lives in Moosic and would pick it up. IH said no, that there aren't pick-ups and they'll ship it. I paid $115 shipping for a bike that was 15 minutes away.
> ...


If you're slow boating it with a good OCM you can get a 40' container to port for around a grand and you can get roughly 380 bikes into a container. It's a cost but a very low one in the grand scheme of things.

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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Are they?

When I do some hunting some companies have some aluminum framed bikes in their line-up that are absolutely killer buys.
For trail bikes Specialized alloy stump jumper is wicked bike for the price.
From my preferred manufacture, Orbea, their aluminum Oiz and Occam almost rival Giant for value.

As long as you stay away from Carbon, bikes have better value than they ever have. But the second you add carbon to mixture that value versus performance ratio goes way out of whack.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LarryFahn said:


> Something to think about-
> 
> Years ago I read a post about an Iron Horse Sunday that was supposed to be built in the USA, but it had a "Made in China" sticker on it. A guy that worked at Iron Horse replied that the bike WAS made in the USA (in Washington state I believe) and shipped to China for assembly. Due to customs or some weird reason, they HAD to put this "made in china" sticker on it. The bikes then got shipped back to the west coast and transported to the East Coast in Avoca Pennsylvania to be distributed. Iron Horse was from Brooklyn.
> I mentioned Avoca as the distribution for an important reason. The bike shop I worked at is in Scranton. I ordered a Sunday and IH said their distribution center was in Avoca! Bill said that he lives in Moosic and would pick it up. IH said no, that there aren't pick-ups and they'll ship it. I paid $115 shipping for a bike that was 15 minutes away.
> ...


I don't think the guy was honest with you. How long does it take to assemble a bike? If we say an hour, then you could hire someone and pay them, let's be generous for "years ago" and say $20 an hour. So to be worthwhile, they'd have to package up those "made in the US" frames and ship them all the way to China, where they are assembled, paying the laborers something (though not much) and then pack them up again and ship them all the way back to the US. And then, bikes are not shipped fully assembled so now someone in the US will still have to do some of the assembly. Just with the logistics of someone having to make the shipping arrangements, etc, it wouldn't be worthwhile.

I think more likely, the frames were manufactured in China and then shipped to the US where the bikes were then assembled, hence "built in the USA" rather than manufactured in the USA.


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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

chazpat said:


> I don't think the guy was honest with you. How long does it take to assemble a bike? If we say an hour, then you could hire someone and pay them, let's be generous for "years ago" and say $20 an hour. So to be worthwhile, they'd have to package up those "made in the US" frames and ship them all the way to China, where they are assembled, paying the laborers something (though not much) and then pack them up again and ship them all the way back to the US. And then, bikes are not shipped fully assembled so now someone in the US will still have to do some of the assembly. Just with the logistics of someone having to make the shipping arrangements, etc, it wouldn't be worthwhile.
> 
> I think more likely, the frames were manufactured in China and then shipped to the US where the bikes were then assembled, hence "built in the USA" rather than manufactured in the USA.


Here's the thread I was referring to. SKATodd worked at Iron Horse Fwiw.

https://ridemonkey.bikemag.com/threads/sundays-are-not-made-in-the-usa.179396/


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

LarryFahn said:


> Here's the thread I was referring to. SKATodd worked at Iron Horse Fwiw.
> 
> https://ridemonkey.bikemag.com/threads/sundays-are-not-made-in-the-usa.179396/


Oh man blast from then past there. But, to your point - with bikes US welded and then shipped out for final assembly probably isn't the norm but not unheard of... from my lay-person chair, I read this happening in Asia - (after US does the welds):

painting (enviro restrictive in US - which I think is good thing outside of price)
frame finishing and prep
quality control inspections
all the parts are in Asia
pre-assembly (eg: 75% assembled as a LBS gets it)
boxing / labelling
finally - container ready and put on a ship - destination: affluent western countries

It's pretty plausable to see that being cheaper than stateside - enviro/cheap labor/infrastructure/competitive options.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

The compliant about how expensive bikes are getting has been around as long as MTBR.

I don’t know if bikes have gotten more expensive (inflation adjusted) over the past 20 years, but my tastes certainly have.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

kapusta said:


> The compliant about how expensive bikes are getting has been around as long as MTBR.
> 
> I don't know if bikes have gotten more expensive (inflation adjusted) over the past 20 years, but my tastes certainly have.


Well the SWork FSR I bought in 2000 MRSP was $3570 adjust for inflation that is ~ $5322

I don't thing you can find any SWorks models for ~5-6k.

But the reality is it's just not that simple of a comparison- yes both top of the line at the time, but I doubt AL frames/parts cost as much to manufacture as carbon.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

So buy a 2019 while you still can?


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Good Lord. I've never seen so many people so bitter about spending money on a hobby, an activity that is of no practical use but which we do for fun and diversion. You can get a great bike, one that only ten years ago would have had the editors of Mountain Bike Action in orgasmic raptures of idiotic cliches, for less than a thousand bucks including a helmet and other accessories. Sure, it will be a hard-tail but we used to ride those all the time.

You can get a decent bike for six hundred and good used one for less than that. 

I can afford some nice stuff but I realize that the extra money only gets you so much. I "skimped" and got a SRAM GX Eagle instead of the XO1 or XX1 for my bikepacking sled and I'm not sure there's much of a difference. A quarter pound of weight? I just didn't see the need to spend $300 on a cassette...but it's alright if other people do. 

Not to mention you can get a SRAM NX Eagle groupset for $250. You don't even need an exotic XD hub for that one and it shifts great...almost as well as the $1200 XX1.

Yeah...this example shows you that there is some chicanery in pricing. I doubt that the XX1 requires $900 more to manufacture and assemble than the NX. The cassette seems to be the only huge difference except for a very small amount of metal or carbon fiber. But, as has been pointed out, nobody is holding a gun to your head. 

Ride what you can afford. Realistically you are not going to get into the hobby of mountain biking on a Bike Shaped Object from Wal Mart but you don't need to spend ten grand for an S-Works dream machine either.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

tuckerjt07 said:


> If you're slow boating it with a good OCM you can get a 40' container to port for around a grand and you can get roughly 380 bikes into a container. It's a cost but a very low one in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


I read a book called "95 Percent of Everything" about modern container shipping. Cargo costs are so low, as an example, that a fish canning plant in Scotland could send their fish frozen to China to be cleaned and and then shipped back to be processed for much cheaper than paying someone in Scotland to do it.

Ocean freight costs are trivial, especially for relatively high value items like televisions and bikes.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

TwoTone said:


> Well the SWork FSR I bought in 2000 MRSP was $3570 adjust for inflation that is ~ $5322
> 
> I don't thing you can find any SWorks models for ~5-6k.
> 
> But the reality is it's just not that simple of a comparison- yes both top of the line at the time, but I doubt AL frames/parts cost as much to manufacture as carbon.


A $2500 modern bike would smoke your old S works.
Heck you can buy 3-year-old Yeti for that money and literally have the cream of the crop from just last year. 
I don't see the problem.

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## motard5 (Apr 9, 2007)

Raw material sourcing will always be a battle, but I can't wait for advancements in material science and 3D printing. The hopes is that small scale production like bicycles can then be manufactured cost effectively anywhere, including Australia...because an Aussie complaining about a US company who outsources to Taiwan is just pure nonsense regardless.


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

You may want to look at some of the bikes offered by internet vendors. I have a Fezzari Cascade Peak that is now three sets of tires and one drivetrain old and still rides very well. It is an aluminum frame with mid high end components and was fit to me by their measuring and outfitting system. I know that there are other internet only firms out there. The bike ended up about $1500 cheaper than the six fattie in aluminum and had MUCH better components. 

Unfortunately, Fezzari seems to have gone all SRAM this year and I would have to toss the guide brakes and refit with XTs. This seems to be all over the bike industry - I assume that the package prices are low but I just don't like SRAM drivetrains or, especially, SRAM brakes.

To me, most all of the real MTBs sold today have effective good frames. That makes component choice the deciding factor in what to buy.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

In 1976 my Dad bought a Schwinn Paramount P10-9, full 531 and full Campy. This was the most-premium bike you could get from a major US company, hand-built in a legendary corner of the factory that produced Olympic and team racing bikes. I have the receipt. It was $600. In today-money that works out to like $2700. The road bike you can buy for $2700 today is much better in every way, but every company has one. It's their Tiagra or 105 build on their second best frame. The most-premium bike costs three or four times more. $2700 meanwhile will get you a functional, not amazing full suspension mountain bike.


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## PilotMTB (Jul 16, 2017)

I’m not certain about all of the others brands, but from what I’ve seen from Giant every year its plus or minus a bit. Including this year. In fact this year some have seen a decent drop. This is all with some how each year improving the components and slapping eagle drivetrains on even the lesser models. Which makes my broke self very happy. 


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## Kitty13 (Jun 7, 2016)

Trump said we're making billions off the tariffs; hence 2020 bikes should be less expensive.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

Kitty13 said:


> Trump said we're making billions off the tariffs; hence 2020 bikes should be less expensive.


Pretty sure you have that backwards...

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## Tristan Wolf (Oct 21, 2019)

Or same price, lower spec - SRAM SX Anyone?!?!?!

Just seen KONA +2000$ HT with SX shifter and rear mech.


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## BustedBearing (Apr 28, 2011)

mack_turtle said:


> Can someone provide examples? Is this a problem specific to the United States or is it global now? How much of this is just inflation in general and how much of it is something deeper?


The same exact saddle I bought a while back cost me 125$. It's still available nowadays but at the cost of 239$. Same model. Apart from slight aesthetic changes, being that it's a super light model, theres not much room for enhancement. The materials used are the same.

The last few weeks I've been oogling some bikes, thinking about replacing my current ride. While doing that I noticed a certain model on a website got replaced for the newer 2020 model. Same components, different color scheme, no major geometry differences. But wait there's more, a 399$ price increase.

I'm not US based, tariffs don't apply.
The saddle is made, at least the brand says so, in a neighboring country.
Bike prices have consistently been racking up since the 2010's, they're getting to ridiculous levels and wages haven't risen the same percentage.

I've been riding nearly for 20 years now. Bikes used to be improved, but a certain model used to be kept at a certain price bracket. You knew what to expect from certain brands and models. Looking at current trends I can't help but think there's a lot of marketing inflation with new technologies and improvements, some just for the sake of the current year+1 markup that doesn't translate into any perceivable benefit for the average rider.

Personally I'm getting a bit fed up with it. This used to be a pretty laid back hobby. Now it seems it became a consumer competition.

Big brands have lost my business somewhere mid decade. My next bike won't probably be a full suspension, as I can't justify shelling out 3000$ or more for frames that don't even come with XT level components. Even hardtails with decent components seem difficult to get at a reasonable pricepoint.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

BustedBearing said:


> The same exact saddle I bought a while back cost me 125$. It's still available nowadays but at the cost of 239$. Same model. Apart from slight aesthetic changes, being that it's a super light model, theres not much room for enhancement. The materials used are the same.
> 
> The last few weeks I've been oogling some bikes, thinking about replacing my current ride. While doing that I noticed a certain model on a website got replaced for the newer 2020 model. Same components, different color scheme, no major geometry differences. But wait there's more, a 399$ price increase.


can you post specifics? I believe you, but those comments need context:
*for the saddle price increase, what specific model was it?
*how long ago was "a while back"? six months, a year, 10 years?
*what specific model went up $400 from 2019 to 2020? I believe you, but it would only be fair to compare them directly. we can't do that without context.
*What country? I am sure politics and economics differ from one country to the next. can you provide examples of items that have not increased in price in your country for a baseline, or is everything becoming more expensive?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Nevermind, forgot I already posted in this thread.


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## hogfly (Mar 6, 2018)

I don't know... there are some very serviceable full suspension bikes out there for under 2k. If you go up to 3k, you're into some truly awesome bikes.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Which full suspension bikes for under 2k? I don’t think you’re even getting SX at that price level. I’ve seen some Giant models that are under 2k. It’s got a Altus group and real basic Suntour suspension.


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## hogfly (Mar 6, 2018)

RS VR6 said:


> Which full suspension bikes for under 2k? I don't think you're even getting SX at that price level. I've seen some Giant models that are under 2k. It's got a Altus group and real basic Suntour suspension.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Vitus Mythique is exactly 2,000 (Marzocchi fork, Rockshox shock, SX drivetrain, dropper)

Giant Stance 1 is 1,800 (Rockshox suspension, SX drivetrain and does have a dropper).. but you can upgrade to the Trance for like 200 more, which would be smart.

Calibre Bossnut is $1,400 (Rockshox suspension, SX, no dropper)


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Prices go up
People keep buying
Profits increase
Supply and Demand

Wages, Insurance, Shipping, Fuel, Labor, Taxes and other overhead from the suppliers, to the manufacturer, shipping company, transport company, middle men, salesmen, store

People want a slice, and they get more of a slice

and people keep buying

People want more income


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## manpurse (Feb 6, 2011)

Me thinks inflation in the mtb industry has outpaced real world inflation and it's become a luxury sport. Some days I do feel like I'm being priced out of the bike industry. I have a friend who stopped road biking for this reason and switched to trail and road running. Although he misses biking and hated running at first he learned to love it and says he is saving a ton of money. He can buy top of the line shoes for $150 and spends about $500 total a year on running. I lose that amount just in depreciation after walking the new bike out of the store. The $4k bikes, $100 helmets, $100 pedals, $500 bike racks all start to add up quickly.

I don't think I could ever give up mountain biking but there is a certain appeal to just going back to a simple hardtail with decent components and enjoying it, watch Hardtailparty on Youtube to get the idea.


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## hogfly (Mar 6, 2018)

manpurse said:


> Me thinks inflation in the mtb industry has outpaced real world inflation and it's become a luxury sport. Some days I do feel like I'm being priced out of the bike industry. I have a friend who stopped road biking for this reason and switched to trail and road running. Although he misses biking and hated running at first he learned to love it and says he is saving a ton of money. He can buy top of the line shoes for $150 and spends about $500 total a year on running. I lose that amount just in depreciation after walking the new bike out of the store. The $4k bikes, $100 helmets, $100 pedals, $500 bike racks all start to add up quickly.
> 
> I don't think I could ever give up mountain biking but there is a certain appeal to just going back to a simple hardtail with decent components and enjoying it, watch Hardtailparty on Youtube to get the idea.


I feel you on upkeep. I basically put back $100 a month into our bike maintenance fund. That's to keep two FS bikes up and running. Whatever doesn't go into maintenance goes into our bike purchase fund (another $100 a month I put back).

Having to service full suspension sucks. We are JUST about to the point that we get good enough deals on bikes that we'll go to a yearly bike purchase. I'm convinced that's the way to go. Buy a bike on a deep discount (either pro deals or buddy deals), ride it for a year, sell it before you have to put in all the major maintenance, then purchase another one. I recognize that most people aren't getting deals on their bikes, though.


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## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

Joe Mama said:


> Bikes have been expensive, and getting progressively more so, long before anyone started worrying about tariff increases. When all the US bike companies moved production to low cost centers overseas they didn't reduce their prices or pass any savings to the consumer, they just increased profit margins and prices continued to rise. Strangely companies like YT that do direct sales are thriving in this environment with excellent bikes for great prices that are frequently on sale. Maybe the traditional bike distribution model the big brands use is to blame?


I bought my current favorite bike from an internet only company, Fezzari, in Utah. It came in at about $1000 (25%) cheaper than comparable Spec and Santa Cruz bikes and it has much higher grade components.

However, I would not buy one of their bikes now because they have eaten the SRAM coolade. I just won't buy a bike with SRAM brakes ever again. The drivetrains are OK but a little pricey. I am definitely a Shimano guy.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

LarryFahn said:


> Something to think about-
> 
> Years ago I read a post about an Iron Horse Sunday that was supposed to be built in the USA, but it had a "Made in China" sticker on it. A guy that worked at Iron Horse replied that the bike WAS made in the USA (in Washington state I believe) and shipped to China for assembly. Due to customs or some weird reason, they HAD to put this "made in china" sticker on it. The bikes then got shipped back to the west coast and transported to the East Coast in Avoca Pennsylvania to be distributed. Iron Horse was from Brooklyn.
> I mentioned Avoca as the distribution for an important reason. The bike shop I worked at is in Scranton. I ordered a Sunday and IH said their distribution center was in Avoca! Bill said that he lives in Moosic and would pick it up. IH said no, that there aren't pick-ups and they'll ship it. I paid $115 shipping for a bike that was 15 minutes away.
> ...


Because of efficiencies of scale, shipping costs are negligible for anything that can be packed in a container and sent by "slow boat." Even air freight is relatively cheap for high value, low bulk items. That's why it's cheaper to ship frames and components to China for assembly and then back than it is to just assemble them here.

You can pack a lot of bikes into a standard shipping container. a 53 foot container will hold about 300 bikes in boxes. Standard shipping rates from China to the US for this container are about 500 bucks so the cost per bike is not more than two dollars.


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## ctxcrossx (Jan 13, 2004)

manpurse said:


> Me thinks inflation in the mtb industry has outpaced real world inflation and it's become a luxury sport. Some days I do feel like I'm being priced out of the bike industry. I have a friend who stopped road biking for this reason and switched to trail and road running. Although he misses biking and hated running at first he learned to love it and says he is saving a ton of money. He can buy top of the line shoes for $150 and spends about $500 total a year on running. I lose that amount just in depreciation after walking the new bike out of the store. The $4k bikes, $100 helmets, $100 pedals, $500 bike racks all start to add up quickly.
> 
> I don't think I could ever give up mountain biking but there is a certain appeal to just going back to a simple hardtail with decent components and enjoying it, watch Hardtailparty on Youtube to get the idea.


I understand what you're saying, but you can't compare things that easily. Running is super expensive compared to chess as a hobby. Every sport is different. But how often was he buying that stuff? I get a new (to me) bike about once a decade. Shoes, every couple years....same with helmet and pedals. My last bike rack lasted about 20 years (roof rack). It can be expensive if you're trying to keep up with the Joneses. It can be a much more reasonable sport if you're not.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

ctxcrossx said:


> I understand what you're saying, but you can't compare things that easily. Running is super expensive compared to chess as a hobby. Every sport is different. But how often was he buying that stuff? I get a new (to me) bike about once a decade. Shoes, every couple years....same with helmet and pedals. My last bike rack lasted about 20 years (roof rack). It can be expensive if you're trying to keep up with the Joneses. It can be a much more reasonable sport if you're not.


pretty much this....the sport is only as expensive as you allow it to be.

I bought my Surly Krampus 5 years ago, at $1400, and the plan is for it to be the last bike I ever buy. It will always be everything I ever need in a bike. There will always be upkeep on it, but I buy stuff when it breaks, not when it goes out of style.

I think part of it, for me, is that I have always been "poor". I rarely ever have disposable income. This is all by choice because I have always lived pretty minimalist, and money is not my definition of happiness. I grew up in a system where things were supposed to last. Stuff was not disposable. I look at my MTB stuff the same way


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> pretty much this....the sport is only as expensive as you allow it to be.
> 
> I bought my Surly Krampus 5 years ago, at $1400, and the plan is for it to be the last bike I ever buy. It will always be everything I ever need in a bike. There will always be upkeep on it, but I buy stuff when it breaks, not when it goes out of style.
> 
> I think part of it, for me, is that I have always been "poor". I rarely ever have disposable income. This is all by choice because I have always lived pretty minimalist, and money is not my definition of happiness. I grew up in a system where things were supposed to last. Stuff was not disposable. I look at my MTB stuff the same way


If you have to have one bike, the Krampus is a great choice.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

I've been riding an FM-06 full carbon chiner full suspension frame for over a year. With paint job and shock it was $950 to my door. PF92, linkage bearings, internal frame routing. Haven't had any problems. 

But if I want to buy a frameset from a "reputable" manufacturer, I'm looking at $2500 minimum. Right now the one I want to replace it with is $2999. And yes, I'll pay it....

Because compared to many, many other sports or hobbies, riding a $6k bicycle for two years is inexpensive. 

So that's my answer - Because your $10k bicycle isn't expensive.


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## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

Ailuropoda said:


> If you have to have one bike, the Krampus is a great choice.


oh yeah. i researched for 2 years (as I saved up money) and had it narrowed down to the Krampus, ECR and Salsa Fargo. There has not been a day that I regretted the decision.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

str8edgMTBMXer said:


> oh yeah. i researched for 2 years (as I saved up money) and had it narrowed down to the Krampus, ECR and Salsa Fargo. There has not been a day that I regretted the decision.


I try to do this as well. Buy once, buy right. I have a 29er mountain and a road bike that are 10 years or older. I just did 50 miles on the road bike yesterday and 40 on the mountain today. I cannot complain about these purchases.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

The reason this sport can seem so expensive is because no matter how much you spend to get the very best and latest equipment, in 2-3 years, the industry, mags, and forums are going to be trying to convince you it is “obsolete”, “outdated”, “old-school”.

I spent the first ~17 of my 23 MTB years on that treadmill. It has been liberating to get off it. 

I don’t think spending $5K on a bike is that crazy. I do think spending $5K on a replacement bike every 2-3 years is.


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## Kerfree (Oct 18, 2019)

Here it is in a nut shell. If you are like me and would love the best bike out there. But..... you’re budget isn’t $2-3k or more. Then you buy what you can afford and you ride it till the wheels fall off. After that you buy better parts and fix it then..... repeat. I’ve built every bike I have owned from the ground up. This way you buy the parts you want over time. But I’m very mechanical inclined and can do all my own work which is a huge help. If you get knocked around about what’s between your legs from someone then it shows that the name brands mean more to them then the joy of the ride. I love having the best I can but the budget isn’t always there for that. So I get what I can afford and make the best of it and enjoy myself on that. The name on that downtube is just a name if it’s that important to have that name just save up. Me I’ll take what I can get and make the best of it. I just purchased a bike with a name that starts all kinda issues in this forum. I’m not putting any name up cause I don’t feel like hearing all the comment. All that matters is it rolls and can fly when I need it to so where is the name issues at?


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## Kerfree (Oct 18, 2019)

This is fourth time I’ve tried this and keeps messing up. If you don’t mind a little extra weight. Some of the geometry isn’t what high end bikes are or what a lot like. If you want something that comes with ok components that can be upgraded as the pocket let’s you. Then check out these two very bad words (as a lot of ppl on here say) Bike Direct. You can get something that’s a ride with room to change things up as you go. Even the frame can be saved up for while you have something to ride. When the old bank book says you can change things up with a little work you could have something to ride and put some cash back. I know a lot is said about the stuff they have on that site but my KHS frame is made by the same company making their frames. Just little different spec or geometry. I say oh well it’s not all about the sticker on the downtube for me it’s about getting out and riding. That’s what this forum is for ppl that want to ride and should be helping others do the same. Shouldn’t be any judgement towards what you ride. Oh and one more little thing the guy that started this site rides one of those bikes so I heard so that says something right there


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

kapusta said:


> The reason this sport can seem so expensive is because no matter how much you spend to get the very best and latest equipment, in 2-3 years, the industry, mags, and forums are going to be trying to convince you it is "obsolete", "outdated", "old-school".
> 
> I spent the first ~17 of my 23 MTB years on that treadmill. It has been liberating to get off it.
> 
> I don't think spending $5K on a bike is that crazy. I do think spending $5K on a replacement bike every 2-3 years is.


Far be it from me to criticize anyone for spending money on something that brings them joy, but I tend to agree that spending 5k every 2-3 years is nuts.

At this point we are talking about very diminishing returns. Bikes have come a long way. The difference between my 1997 bike and my 2007 bike was huge. The difference between my 2007 bike and my 2017 bike was pretty substantial, but much less so. But I'll tell you that I just got my wife a used 2014 Kona Hei Hei and there is almost no difference between that and the 2019 Kona Hei Hei that I demo'd last year.

Mountain bikes are pretty dialed at this point. Sure, there's always room for improvement, but at this stage it is so minimal that it's hard to justify an upgrade.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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## bango (Apr 25, 2020)

I recently came back to cycling after being away for a long time, when I looked at some of the prices of bikes I nearly cried. $5K-10K for a bicycle? OUT OF CONTROL. For 10K I can buy a used car. 

They are just bleeding people out because they can. I am not going touch the geopolitics of this, however this is not because of tariffs. I did some reading, even prior to the tariffs the prices have been escalating. 

I think this is because the same thing has happened to cycling that has happened to golf with its $500 drivers which are also made in China. They are charging more because they can.

I will bet any amount of money they are making HUGE margins on 10K bicycles. You can't tell me that a $10K bike has 5x the performance of a 2K bike. This is nonsense. It costs them marginally more to make the 10K bike than the 2K bike and they are slurping up those profits. After all we aren't communists are we  . 

And lets be brutally honest - they sent manufacturing to China for few reasons:

1. Dirt cheap labor.
2. No unions.
3. No environmental laws.
4. Cheap transportation.

How could you not lose? Build it at 3rd world prices and sell it at 1st world prices. What a business model - only have core staff here in the US, outsource everything else to the cheap labor location of your choosing. 

Kaching, kaching, kaching.

I am intimately familiar with this process because of what I do for a living. My field has been decimated by offshoring in pursuit of cheap labor. 

I have a friend that has an Amazon store and sells garden stuff. Last year he made 40% net margins and that was after the cost of manufacturing, international shipping, Amazon fees and US shipping. 40% net margins is not too shabby. The stuff he sells involves machining not any different than a bike and there are some materials used that are also not much different than whats on a bike. Building a bike is not rocket science, we aren't going to the moon with these things.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

bango said:


> I recently came back to cycling after being away for a long time, when I looked at some of the prices of bikes I nearly cried. $5K-10K for a bicycle? OUT OF CONTROL. For 10K I can buy a used car.


to be fair, what kind of car could you buy for $10K? I looked and where I live, for $10K, I could buy
2016 Ford Flex with 40k miles
2011 Land Rover with over 100k miles
2013 Volkswagen Tiguan with 86K miles
a 2015 Smart Car

those are all decent cars, but the bicycle equivalent is a $500 hybrid.

I have no idea what professional-level race cars cost, but I am sure that even hobbyist auto racer spends many times more than that on a car that they race. for comparison, I looked up a few "fancy" cars that are fast:
Maserati Ghibli starts at $70K
Ferrari is pushing $300K
Bugatti Chiron _three million_ dollars
Lamborghini is pushing five million
How many S-works bikes could you buy for that much?

a $10k bicycle is a serious competition tool that very few people can afford or justify buying. the only reason those bikes get your attention is the bling factor makes them nice to drool over, but very, very few people buy them. considering how low the demand for such a bike actually is, I am sure they don't make every many of them. with that small production run, margin is probably really not as high as you think.

most people who are dedicated to mountain biking are probably spending one quarter of what the ultimate top-end bikes cost. keep that in mind. NO ONE expects the average rider to spend $10K on a bike.


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## S​​usspect (May 12, 2017)

mack_turtle said:


> to be fair, what kind of car could you buy for $10K? .... the bicycle equivalent is a $500 hybrid.


I take offense. The most I've ever spent on a car is 11,500 for an 8 year old Xterra with 100k. It still runs great. And it's more like the equivalent of a $2500 used SC Bronson (or something).

But like Mack Turtle said, most of us are not spending 10K on a bike. The most I've spent, to date, is 2500 on a Banshee a couple years ago. It's a great bike. Although, when I showed up at Cat 3 XC races last summer, the guys ahead of me on the podium were often (not always) on much lighter, faster bikes. Not hard to do against my Banshee, but a few guys are spending 8K to enter as Cat 3!

On race day, I just consider it my handicap.


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## bango (Apr 25, 2020)

mack_turtle said:


> to be fair, what kind of car could you buy for $10K? I looked and where I live, for $10K, I could buy
> 2016 Ford Flex with 40k miles
> 2011 Land Rover with over 100k miles
> 2013 Volkswagen Tiguan with 86K miles
> ...


I agree with you but my point is there is quite a bit of profit and the higher up the food chain you go with bikes doesnt mean it costs them that much more to build.

Bikes are getting to these price points because people are willing to pay for it. Its that simple. If people werent willing to pay for them, than they would not exist.

There is no way that these prices are sane when I see $700 Chinese carbon frames on Ebay. Think about the following - if thats what the Chinese are charging for them, what do you think the real cost is on this? Meanwhile here they are charging 2-3K+ for a similar frame. Most likely made in the same factory.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

bango said:


> Bikes are getting to these price points because people are willing to pay for it. Its that simple.


agreed. I can't comment on the actual markup on bikes at different levels, but we're all a little annoyed when the markup cannot be justified other than "because someone is willing to pay it.

My point still stands that you can't compare the price of cars to the price of bicycles.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

mack_turtle said:


> I have no idea what professional-level race cars cost, but I am sure that even hobbyist auto racer spends many times more than that on a car that they race. for comparison, .


For my autocross car (a 93 Civic), I am about to put $1.5k of suspension parts on it (coilovers, adjustable control arms, new harder aftermarket bushings, rear swaybar) plus later this year new wheels at around $900, $1500 of carbon parts to get it lighter then next year boost figure about $2000. Also about a grand of tires a year. That is for a non wheel to wheel hobbyist.

You want to know how to make a small fortune in auto racing. Start with a large one.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

You drive a 93 Civic? no way!


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I spent 7k on carbon pivot 5.7

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## bango (Apr 25, 2020)

Picard said:


> I spent 7k on carbon pivot 5.7
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


Rock on, thats a lot of cabbage!


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

TylerVernon said:


> I've been riding an FM-06 full carbon chiner full suspension frame for over a year. With paint job and shock it was $950 to my door. PF92, linkage bearings, internal frame routing. Haven't had any problems.
> 
> But if I want to buy a frameset from a "reputable" manufacturer, I'm looking at $2500 minimum. Right now the one I want to replace it with is $2999. And yes, I'll pay it....
> 
> ...


Exactly.

I won't lie. I have spent a lot of money on bikes. My Tour Divide bike..if you count all of the modifications starting from a bare El Mariachi Ti frame and working through 1x11, 2x10, Rohloff, and now 1x12 as well converting to a dynamo hub, two different carbon forks, packs, GPS, lights, camping gear, cold weather and rain gear, spare parts, saddles, suspension posts, tires...has probably cost me more than twelve thousand dollars over the last five years. And that's just one of the five bikes I currently own.

It sounds insane and people I know shake their heads sadly...but it's still cheaper than owning a boat, golf, hunting, and definitely cheaper than having a mid-crisis and buying an expensive sports car.

Also, there are no downsides to cycling as a sport and a hobby. It's good exercise, it gets you out in the sun and fresh air, it can be as social or introspective as you like, it can be as sedate or terrifying as you choose, as easy or challenging, and it's just a lot of fun.

I'll say it again. I enjoy spending money on stuff for cycling. God knows I am forced to spend a lot more on things I don't want to...like alimony, taxes, gas, and everything else.


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