# What is the Most sought after retro frame



## loggerhead (Mar 8, 2009)

Just curious what the most sought after retro frame might be. Not talking pro's bikes that were signed or the berrylium frame. I mean a frame that was mass produced for the public.
From searching on ebay all too often, it seems Kleins have held their value quite well. I would think this frame (Mardi Gras) would fetch a fortune as I yet to ever see one other than in pictures. I used to have the Klein catalog from 1993 with this in there but recently sold it.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

far far from the really expensive stuff. 
Try these words: Cunningham. Indian. early WTB.


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## datasurfer (Nov 24, 2006)

colker1 said:


> far far from the really expensive stuff.
> Try these words: Cunningham. Indian. early WTB.


Bingo!


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

I would pay more for an original breezer.


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

Depends how you define "mass produced". It seems that the most sought after frames were the ones that were hand crafted by small builders (Cuningham, Potts, Mantis, Goat, ...) or were limited production( Raleigh Tomac, Specialized Epic/Ultimate,...). There are a few though that were "mass produced" that seem to have a good following including Klein and Bridgestone. Ritchey, Bontrager, Fat Chance and some others might fit in there too, again depending on how you define "mass produced".


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

sfgirlonbike said:


> I would pay more for an original breezer.


series I of course.


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## super_stein (Mar 2, 2004)

Trek Antelope


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## ae111black (Dec 27, 2008)

That Klein looks like someone barfed on it.........YUCK!!


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

loggerhead said:


> . I would think this frame (Mardi Gras) would fetch a fortune as I yet to ever see one other than in pictures. I used to have the Klein catalog from 1993 with this in there but recently sold it.


repainted


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Tough one to define when you say 'mass produced'. Anything collectible or desirable won't be mass produced.

Klein frames might fall under 'mass produced', but that paint work wouldn't.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

As far as numbers go, I think Fats and Kleins are in a similar spot of being relatively available as well as coveted. They both support a pretty strong network of fans. Price wise, average Klein -> Fat -> 'special' painted Klein.

Of course, all the boutique, ultra small scale makers will always be desirable.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

yo-Nate-y said:


> As far as numbers go, I think Fats and Kleins are in a similar spot of being relatively available as well as coveted. They both support a pretty strong network of fans. Price wise, average Klein -> Fat -> 'special' painted Klein.
> 
> Of course, all the boutique, ultra small scale makers will always be desirable.


I'd agree. Both have held their value well. Mountain Goat might be another, though on a smaller scale. Certain Yetis.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> I'd agree. Both have held their value well. Mountain Goat might be another, though on a smaller scale. Certain Yetis.


ibis mojos, steel, will sell higher than the average medium Yo Eddy.
won't they?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

colker1 said:


> ibis mojos, steel, will sell higher than the average medium Yo Eddy.
> won't they?


Not that I've seen. An earlier Ibis Custom would do better, frame vs frame. But if a Yo is in the right color with the BOI fork...they still pull strong numbers. I'd say the two brands are pretty close with market value.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Not that I've seen. An earlier Ibis Custom would do better, frame vs frame. But if a Yo is in the right color with the BOI fork...they still pull strong numbers. I'd say the two brands are pretty close with market value.


scorcher.....


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

colker1 said:


> scorcher.....


Haha! And the Scorcher. I still can't figure out why those are so desirable. Entirely overrated bike I think.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Yo's frame only go anywhere from $250-600+. A frame with the rigid fork in nice shape can easily hit $500 and usually gets a good deal more. 

It seems like there are fewer 90s Ibis Mojos circulating, but for complete bikes I've seen $400-700. A big part of the Fat cachet is in the forks though---most of the Mojo's I've seen are sus or have something generic. I agree that the older ones are way cooler for Ibis, where for Fat the 'Golden Years' seem to be early 90s. I'd still like to try a Wicked one day though....


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Yo's frame only go anywhere from $250-600+. A frame with the rigid fork in nice shape can easily hit $500 and usually gets a good deal more.
> 
> It seems like there are fewer 90s Ibis Mojos circulating, but for complete bikes I've seen $400-700. A big part of the Fat cachet is in the forks though---most of the Mojo's I've seen are sus or have something generic. I agree that the older ones are way cooler for Ibis, where for Fat the 'Golden Years' seem to be early 90s. I'd still like to try a Wicked one day though....


wickeds are easy. half the price of Yos.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

colker1 said:


> wickeds are easy. half the price of Yos.


And ride half as good too!

(I'm kidding. I have no idea how Yo's ride)


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

From what I've noticed the right Klein will always trump the right Fat price-wise and I'd put money on an NOS Tinker-era swank machine doubling a similarly equipped NOS Yo.

Rascals/Mtn. Kleins/the road bikes/full-sus seem to be about as desirable as Wickeds/Kickers/Just plain Fat Chances/SAB (i.e. not really), while nice Yo Eddys/Tis and those Klein night-stormy/purpley/gator things seem to go higher. 

Both mass produced, definitely. Both kult (and that's what you want). But - yeah - hardly the bring-out-the-serious-money brands. I'd say Brodie and ORT fit in here too.


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## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Tough one to define when you say 'mass produced'. Anything collectible or desirable won't be mass produced.


A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G. God has spoken........Guess that explains the Bronco then doesn't it


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

I'm guessing that an American Cycles Beryllium frame would likely bring in the most $$ at auction. However, the chances of actually finding one is pretty close to zero.


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## palerider (Jul 15, 2004)

ae111black said:


> That Klein looks like someone barfed on it.........YUCK!!


Yea walt disney!!


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## Upchuck (Jan 30, 2004)

I'm sure I'm biased about this, but the Fat bikes seem to have more of a cult following than most mass produced bikes. That would seem to raise the going rate on the open market. But that doesn't necessarily translate to "most sought after".

IMO the '93 Ti Fat or a pre-'94 Yo! would pull the most coin from a discerning Fat collector. Both ride really well. The Wicked is an acquired taste. All three have distinct personalities and are better suited to different kinds of riding.

I find the Ti Fat the best rider out of the three. That being said, a late '90s Yo! outshines them all in terms of versatility and handling.


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

Everyone is going to have a different answer on this, but I was there when they were new.

The hushed reverence for a brand new Gator Linear Fade Adroit is like nothing that I have ever seen in person. If they had put up those brass stanchion poles with the red crushed velvet covered ropes in a 30 foot square in the middle of the showroom with the bike in the middle up on a stage with stage lighting, it would have seemed completely appropriate.

I'm sure that there are better bikes today, and I can't say that the average consumer would have the same response as we did almost 20 years ago, but damn...


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## RIS (Nov 4, 2009)

...and the Attitude above does look like a Chameleon threw up on it.


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## banks (Feb 2, 2004)

"Phuckin" Fat Chance


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

gm1230126 said:


> A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G. God has spoken........Guess that explains the Bronco then doesn't it


My Bronco wasn't just a Bronco. They're also not the most collectible vehicles either.


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## blog hogs (Feb 13, 2010)

GT psyclone and xizangs still in demand.(Wake up GT)


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## loggerhead (Mar 8, 2009)

I'm pretty sure you could get more for a used klein (pre trek) fork alone than many of the retro bikes mentioned in many of the retro forums.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

loggerhead said:


> I'm pretty sure you could get more for a used klein (pre trek) fork alone than many of the retro bikes mentioned in many of the retro forums.


 How much is that Klein fork? 20 thousand dollars?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

btw... an Alex Singer randonneur will eat all kleins and their forks alive when it comes to bike money.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

colker1 said:


> btw... an Alex Singer randonneur


art


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

colker1 said:


> btw... an Alex Singer randonneur will eat all kleins and their forks alive when it comes to bike money.


A custom Rene Herse might eat the Singer...


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

mainlyfats said:


> A custom Rene Herse might eat the Singer...


:thumbsup: yeah!


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

For me, this the most valuable bike in the world.

http://images.artnet.com/WebServices/picture.aspx?date=20051124&catalog=82893&gallery=111140&lot=00173&filetype=2

The mass produced mountain bike I most covet is the 89 double u-brake Team Blizzard.


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## Linoleum (Aug 25, 2008)

What is the most sought after retro frame? EASY answer.... '94 Zaskar LE (mint). And I have one for sale, just PM me directly. hehehe.... :thumbsup:


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## proto2000 (Jan 27, 2007)

My opinion is that the Mojo is better than the Yo based on my riding them and still having them. Rumphy, I like your Bronco, saw you at Trail Head Swap Meet. I was the dork who showed you the Salsa stem.


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## loggerhead (Mar 8, 2009)

colker1 said:


> How much is that Klein fork? 20 thousand dollars?


I bet that for will get at least a few hundred dollars..easy. If you find a Klein fork from this era on ebay, watch it till the end. You will see


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## jcrew94123 (Aug 6, 2009)

Mike Kone’s Price Guide to Vintage Lightweights

http://www.renehersebicycles.com/Mike%20Kone's%20Price%20Guide%20to%20Vintage%20Lightweights.htm


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## proto2000 (Jan 27, 2007)

*No go*



jcrew94123 said:


> Mike Kone's Price Guide to Vintage Lightweights
> 
> http://www.renehersebicycles.com/Mike%20Kone's%20Price%20Guide%20to%20Vintage%20Lightweights.htm


Your link is malfunctioning.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

loggerhead said:


> I bet that for will get at least a few hundred dollars..easy. If you find a Klein fork from this era on ebay, watch it till the end. You will see


you are not listening.


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## il sogno (Jul 25, 2007)

Schwinn Homegrown?


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## jcrew94123 (Aug 6, 2009)

Hmmm....not sure why MTBR is inserting a space into the link which breaks it but here's the contents of the page if the link were working...NOTE: he hasn't updated this since 2008 and it looks like he was working alphabetically and only got up to "C"

Mike Kone’s Price Guide to Vintage Lightweights

Working Draft as of October 28, 2008

© 2008 by Michael Kone and Rene Herse Bicycles Inc. No portion of this document may be copied or reproduced without express written (or email) consent of the author.

All material expressed here is opinion, and should considered along with other information and data to make informed buying and selling decisions. The author(s) is not responsible for decisions or purchases (or sales) made on this information. In other words, use the information at your own risk!

If there is one notable feature to the overall vintage lightweight racing bicycle market it is the variability of prices. Often, that is the result of a lack of market information. If somebody were to contact a few people who deal in vintage lightweights, or spend time studying on-line auctions, then they would have a reasonable amount of market knowledge. Instead, if a seller doesn’t do the “research”, they may sell a bicycle for much less than its true market value. Similarly, a one-time buyer might enter the market to make one purchase and they may not be educated about current market pricing. Such buyers are often seen paying seemingly high prices at on-line auction for relatively common items.

Unfortunately, buyers and sellers often misinterpret information or extrapolate values in an unreasonable way. For example, a nice original condition late 1960’s Colnago in original paint with Campagnolo no-name calipers will be worth quite a bit. A Colnago of a similar vintage but that has been repainted with braze-ons added and later version Campagnolo brakes may be worth just a fraction. Valuations of vintage bicycles are often highly dependent on condition and details being absolutely correct. There are buyers out there that are willing and able to spend tremendous amounts on a bicycle because to them, bicycles are inexpensive relative to automobiles vacation homes. But the bike must be perfect; if a few items are not right, it isn’t that the bike looses 20% of its value, it may instead be worth only 20% of the perfect example.
Prices also vary considerably even when buyers and sellers are well versed in the field. That is because the market is so thin. With relatively few buyers and sellers, a market transaction depends upon the perfect alignment of a perhaps reluctant seller and a cautious buyer. This is more pronounced when the item is extremely rare. Now that many vintage bicycles are sold in an auction environment, this is even more pronounced. It there are two potential buyers that are very excited about a bicycle, the sale can be a multiple of what it would be if only one potential buyer placed a high valuation on the item.

Another important point to remember is that there are two ways to look at a bike. The first is to look at it in its entirety and consider its overall appeal. The second way is to look at it as the sum of its parts. Imagine a 1969 Bottechia with Universal brakes and a smattering of Campy. In good condition it may be worth $400 - $500 dollars. Now suppose that on that bike is an early 60's Brooks B17 Swallow saddle in virtually N.O.S. condition. Such a saddle alone could be worth $600. Typically, bicycles sell for a good bit less than their “part out value”. An exception might be a bicycle in which every detail with respect to condition and originality is absolutely correct. It is possible that some well-to-do buyers will pay a premium for a machine where all the hard-to-find bits are already present. But in general, this is more an exception than a rule.

Despite all the difficulty in assigning values, I’ve made some “educated guesses” as to what some of the selected bicycles are worth. And remember, with the recent economic turmoil, nothing is certain, least of all bicycle prices. Don't place too much weight on these "guesses", and please don't plan to send your kids to college based on mortgaging your bicycle collection when the time comes. Happy hunting and happy collecting!

Mike Kone – Boulder CO, USA October 2008

Guideline Condition

The following prices, unless otherwise specified, are for bicycles in very clean original condition. Figure perhaps a bicycle with about 4,000 miles in well cared for condition. In general, for older bikes, more liberties with respect to condition can be expected for the given price.
Atala

Quality generally ranges from reasonable to downright scary. Importantly, these were among the few bikes to enter the U.S. before the early 70's bike boom that were of any quality. Look for examples with nice chrome. Atala bikes were the official make of AYH (American Youth Hostels). Perhaps that should give a clue to their quality.
Atala had some nice track bikes - all chrome with nice painted panels which had an attractive translucent quality. Because these bikes were both mid-level and very common, their value is based mostly on their parts. N.R. bikes (except Universal brakes) are valued at $550. With N.R. brakes, $650.

Atala track bikes, as described above, are attractive and in the current “track is hot market” are valued at $800 with a full Nuovo Record group.

As a word of caution, don't be fooled by seemingly ornate lugs with boxy cut outs on Atalas that have basic parts and rather heavy, crude frames. Such bikes are actually not high quality and years ago, in Italy, they were everywhere.

Allegro

Bikeology sold a lot of these! Many others sold them as well. We’ve seen them from the pre-war era with Reynolds tubing and gorgeous derailleurs that are extremely nice.
In the early 70's they had a few different models - some pretty crude, some rather pleasant. The fancy models had an interesting smoke paint finish that was a Swiss version of a really nice fade. Masi did nice fades in the 60’s, but Allegro was truly exceptional with their finishes. 

While some models are nice, there is not a lot of demand for them so value is again parts based. For very clean smoke examples value may be a bit higher. Of the top models with full Reynolds 531, for N.R. examples figure $700. If an attractive smoke finish bike perhaps $800.

ALAN

An “early modern” attempt at aluminum. Reliability should be considered. Alan frames were also sold under the Guerciotti name. Alan also distinguished itself through their successful cyclo-cross frames using the same construction. 

The original early Alan frames were very attractive and very light. They featured some interesting engraving on the lugs. Unlike much of today's modern aluminum, these have a soft ride which many riders enjoy. It was common to deck out an Alan with special trick lightweight components of the day. For a nice N.R. Alan road model figure perhaps $700. A S.R. equipped bike is probably more appealing and appropriate, with a value of $800 if post-78 parts and approaching $1,000 for pre-78 Super Record. Note that a number of companies (such as Guerciotti) rebranded Alan frames with their own label. 
Austro-Daimler (Puch)

This brand represented an attempt by a large diversified European company to create a prestigious marque in the bicycle world. They were fairly successful. There were some glitches, such as a full size range of bikes all sporting the same length top tube. That, apparently, was eventually taken care of.
The top end bike was the Ultima which was a dark purple or lavender color. Early models had full Campy Titanium Super Record including Ti pedals and bottom bracket. Use of Fiamme Ergal rims and Unicanitior saddles made these bikes stand-outs among production bikes. Early Ultima examples with the goodies in place are worth about $1,200. Since the early S.R. is what makes these so special, later models are worth less, perhaps $ 900.

The next model was the Superleicht - These were typically a cream color. Red examples were sold initially as framesets. These bikes which were slightly less finished than the Ultima are worth about $750. There were many other Austro-Daimler models - many featured Reynolds tubing and assorted European components. These non-Campy models are much less valuable, perhaps only a few hundred dollars to the right buyer. They often make great riders and are wonderful for the budget minded enthusiast.

One non-Campy model that was a standout had a funky dark non-painted finish (see the Sheldon Brown version of this guide for more info). It was full Reynolds 531 but had a second tier parts kit that was still quite nice. Figure a value of around $600 for one in guideline condition. 



Basso

If my memory is correct, these came onto the market in the early-to-mid 1980's. They are a very competent Italian frame. They were probably built by contract with one of the better makers. In terms of construction, a Basso will compare quite well with a Colnago or Rossin of the period, although Basso seems to have less value. We've also heard that they are prone to corrosion issues. Most likely this is the result of improper care during the chroming process. We've known top-notch riders who've loved their Basso frames. So while Basso is out of the top tier, a nice corrosion-free example from the 1980's is really a very nice classic Italian race machine. Figure a nice super record example in guideline condition will be valued at around $ 900.



E.G. Bates

Visit the Sheldon Brown version of this guide for info on E.G. Bates. This company was completely distinct from the Horace Bates make. Examples we’ve seen have ornate lugs and fine workmanship. Examples will most likely be 1950’s bikes with parts that pre-date the Campagnolo group era. Values will depend most on originality and the parts kit. The frames themselves probably don’t have a deep following. For frame-only with original transfers in guideline condition with ornate lugs a value around $700 would probably be reasonable.



(Horace) Bates

This is one of the major British builders. The top models feature a reverse-rake fork (called Diadrant) and oversize (in the middle) Reynolds "Cantiflex" tubing. These are in a class with the British greats such as Hetchins, Ephgraves, and the Flying Gates.

There are people who are skeptical of the Bates designs. While the fork doesn’t seem to make much sense, the flaring of the center sections of the maintubes does. While bending forces on frames are indeed located at tube junctions (at the lugs), torsional rigidity is quite dependent on the diameter of the tube along its length (thanks to Hillary Stone for reminding me of this a few years back).

The result of the Bates designs is that they are very highly regarded for their fine ride characteristics. Most “classic” Bates frames that are likely to turn up will be from the 1940’s through the 1960’s. A frame-only in guideline condition is should have a value of around $750.
In recent times, Ron Cooper under the guidance of Ray Etherton constructed wonderful fresh production Bates frames. The top examples of these have very ornate hand cut lugs that embody countless hours of handwork. As I understand, Cooper is no longer constructing these frames. A value for one of these should be around $900. At this price, these frames represent an amazing value and should really be worth much more.

Bianchi

One could write a book about Bianchi. This company defines the notion of racing heritage. There are lots of Bianchi models, many are dazzling, many are mediocre. Remember that Bianchi makes bicycles for both racers and those seeking a means of basic transportation. Early top-end Bianchi bikes using the complicated but nonetheless fabled Campy Cambio Corsa shifter (move the lever, slide the wheel, shift, etc) system with original paint should be worth around $3500 if they are sporting their original parts. In the early 1950’s, the Campagnolo Paris Robiax shifter evolved from the Cambio Corsa model. This shifter used a single lever instead of the two required to use the Cambio Corsa. As the production run of this model was short, it can be argued that bikes featuring it are worth somewhat more than their Cambio Corsa brethren.

In the early 1950’s, Campagnolo saw the “writing on the wall” and gave up on their relatively antiquated shifting system. They went to the parallelogram design which went into regular production as the Gran Sport in 1951. The design went through many iterations during 1951 and 1952 and then Campagnolo in 1953 came out with a more finalized version that remained in production nearly unchanged into the 1960’s. 

A Bianchi from around 1953 through the late 1950’s with steel cranks, Campagnolo Gran Sport derailleurs, Bianchi labeled hubs, and Bianchi labeled cranks in original paint should have a value around $2,200. Similar examples but from the late 1950’s with first generation Campagnolo cranks, pedals, and seatpost will be worth closer to $2,700. 

While production Bianchi frames from the 1950’s typically display average workmanship, many of the 1960’s top examples are beautifully made. While the lugs are rather thick, they have uniformly crisp brazing. Some examples were built for 700c tubulars, while others were came through apparently made for 27” clinchers. The top 1960’s examples will typically have full Campagnolo parts kits with Universal 61 brakes. For these bikes in guideline condition, a value around $1,750 is likely. Note that many of these early Bianchi bikes used a proprietary integral headset which means replacement may be difficult.
In the l970’s, Bianchi bikes became more typical, and this trend continued into the 1980’s. In the late 1970’s there were Bianchi bikes in the classic Celeste color that were actually second-tier machines. These can be identified by their Campagnolo Nuovo Record deraillieurs in conjunction with second-tier parts such as cranks. These bikes rode quite well, but are not nearly as valuable as the top level machines. For one of these machines, a value of around $450 is reasonable. For full Nuovo Record top tier machines, a value around $800 is fair. Super Record bikes from the 1980’s are quite “hot” right now. For nice examples, prices around $1,100 are fair. For special edition bicycles with pantagrahped components are price closer to $1,500 is reasonable.

Do not be fooled by the many low-end Bianchi bicycles from the 1950’s through 1960’s that are made of heavy seamed tubing and mostly lower grade components. These feature frames that are very crude and these bikes really are “pretenders”. They are fun to look at, and for around town use they will be quite functional. But their value as a performance tool is limited. The fixie conversion crowd may find appeal with these, so values in the $150 to $300 range are likely, but those seeking performance should look elsewhere.

Bianchi produced a Centenario bike in the early 80's using early C-Record components. They even had (at least some did) large flange C-Record hubs. These bikes are now serious collectors items as early C-record components are now highly collectible. To pay $3,000 in the current market would probably be reasonable.

Benotto

An Italian company that moved to Mexico. Some of the Italian examples are exquisite. Such an N.R. bike should be worth perhaps $1,000 to those who appreciate fine workmanship. Later Mexican production yielded nice but not terribly special bikes. For N.R. examples figure perhaps $700. Apparently, though, there are some durability questions regarding some of the Mexican Benotto machines (overheating issues when built and subsequent tube failure) so buyers should search the Classic Rendezvous Archives for information on this problem.
Bottechia

Pretty much the same quality level and pricing issues as Atala (about $700 for a Nuovo Record equipped bike from the 1970’s). One exception is interesting early-to-mid 80's Super Record bikes that were based on European team bikes. These are interesting and given the recent surge of interest for Super Record bikes of this period, a value of $1,050 seems fair for prime examples. 

There are many relatively early Bottechia bikes in the U.S. One model in particular has Universal brakes, Nervar crank, and Record deraillers Such a bike is worth perhap $450.

Bianco

One of the most obscure names in the vintage bike world. Nobody even knows the first name of Bianco. The best information is that Bianco was a star builder who had his own shop in France that turned out frames without labels that Pro team riders purchased and then had finished in their team colors. He was apparently the builder to the stars. In addition to making race frames, he gained some fame by teaching an individual named Alex Singer how to build frames. There appears to have been involvement from Bianco on the very earliest Singer frames. Subsequently, it seems that there were at least a few touring and other non-race frames that emerged from Bianco’s hands. Value is hard to determine (and this author has conflict-of-interest issues here). A guess would be that a Bianco frame should be worth around $800.
Claud Butler

One of the giants of the British cycling industry, but don't have visions of a small one-man-shop. Claud Butler was a large concern. In addition to frame production, there was a large catalog business as well. Bikes of all varieties were produced. There were both lugged and fillet brazed, as well as tandems and track bikes. Many were relatively mass-produced while others may be quite exceptional.
The company was probably most prolific before the Campy N.R. period. For top-end interesting frames-only from the 40's through the 60's, figure perhaps $750. The value of complete bikes will depend mostly on the parts and condition. Examples with interesting paint, and perhaps the unique bi-laminate lug construction method will be worth more. 

Geoffrey Butler

Bikes from this Butler were common during the N.R. period. Some examples were very nicely done, they were probably only slightly above average. Estimated value for a full Campy NR machine is $850. Our understanding is that Geoffrey Butler as a company still exists.

Cannondale

Around the late 1970’s, Cannondale came on the scene and their impact was not trivial. Modern aluminum was just starting to make a foothold, and Cannondale sought to capitalize on the growing interest in alternative materials. Klein frames were well though out by intelligent folks from MIT, and Cannondale rightly saw a market opening. Cannondale frames gained a reputation for being extremely stiff. Some folks loved them, other folks were completely turned off by them. Quality control seemed to be somewhat mixed (differing views on this). For a 1980’s model with Campagnolo Nuovo Record components a value of $700 to $800 might be reasonable. The value possibly could be higher because it seems that relatively few of the bikes are still around in their original state. Conversely, most folks who seek vintage road bikes of the era have a warm spot for steel. 


Carlton

One of the great British frame makers. From the late 1930's through the mid 1960's, Carlton produced high quality frames that were often keenly priced compared to their competition. During the 1960's, though, Raleigh purchased Carlton in an attempt to enter the high-end bike market. Carlton bikes from around 1966 perhaps are really best thought of as Raleigh bikes. True high-end Carlton bicycles from before or right at the time of the take-over are often quite exceptional. The Carlton International was a gorgeous frame that featured a very ornate lugset. Note that two versions of the Carlton International exist; the better version has true hand cut lugs, the less desirable example has production made lugs. My understanding is that the less desirable version typically has a brake bridge with a seam on the underside. There was also model from the late 1950's, I believe, that was even more special; the Carlton Jewell. This frame had ornate lugs and exceptional flamboyant paintwork over chrome for an amazingly gorgeous look. There are probably very few of these in nice original condition out there. 

Values for Carlton bikes seem to be in large part based on parts value plus a premium if the frame is exceptional. Condition and exact variety will make a tremendous difference. As a guideline, though, a Carlton International with handcut lugs with a mix of Campagnolo components correct for the period (and perhaps Weinemann brakes) should be valued at around $ 1,400 in guideline condition. The more common frames, such as a Carlton Flyer with a smattering of Campy parts would be valued at $850. For Carlton frames/bikes that are essentially Raleigh machines, it is best to work off of Raleigh valuations.


Casati

An Italian make with only limited exposure in the U.S. Some examples are extraordinarily nice. There are some nice S.R. examples around. Figure those are worth about $1,000.
Celo Europa

A house brand of Marcel Celborn, these are probably either Colnagos or built by a builder that builds some of the Colnago models. The examples we have seen are very tidy - certainly at least as good as a typical Colnago or Olmo. For a guideline condition road bike with Nuovo Record parts figure a value around $800.
Centurion

A Japanese make that offered great value for the money but most examples are not of too much interest to collectors. An exception is a model that Centurion marketed that featured a lower-end model frame built by Cinelli. 
Chiorda

A few of these were OK, but nothing terribly special. Such bikes in guideline condition about $ 650.

Cinelli

Cinelli bikes are among the most sought-after of all vintage lightweights. A few heretics claim they are over rated, but everyone is entitled to their opinion (even if it is wrong). Many Cinelli frames show exquisite mitering, smooth and even brazing (apparently done on an open harth!), and lots of lug thinning. This is even true for examples from the mid-50's! Sure they may have deep ugly file marks too - but that is only the surface! Add to the equation the widely held opinion that Cinelli frames ride pretty close to perfection. Cinelli frames are also a visual feast with their Italian style elements that are simply timeless. In Japan, appreciation for Cinelli products is near cult-like. A Cinelli is an icon of cycling tradition. Cinelli frames defined the paradigm of a quality racing bike for decades. Should I go on?
Late 40's to mid 50's models with Cinelli crest decal on forkblades are very rare! I believe there are one or two B models of this period known, but this author is not aware of a single example of a top model existing of this period in original paint. If one was to turn up, a value in the $5000 to $7000 might be reasonable. There are some early examples that have been repainted with either Simplex or Paris Robaix type changers that I’m aware of.

Cinelli frames that are the “A” model (either labeled Supercorsa or Speciale Corsa, both the same) feature the legendary Cinelli fully sloping crown and will typically take a 26.2 seatpost. The lower model, officially called the B model, has a flat crown. From around 1956 to 1959, Cinelli frames have lugs that are commonly called “wolfs ear” lugs as the upper inside edge of the downtube lug extends forward as viewed from the side (similarly the lower inside edge of the toptube lug extends forward as viewed from the side. A nice example in guideline condition should be worth approximately $4,000. From around 1960, Cinelli did away with this lug design element, and Cinelli frames remained fairly similar until around 1969 when the 3 holes in the lugs started to appear. Figure that nice examples from this pre-1969 period in guideline condition will be worth around $3,000. This amount will be higher, though, if the bicycle features relatively rare parts. Parts such as first generation Campagnolo alloy cranks, Cinelli Bivalent hubs, rare saddles, or badged Cinelli steel stems, will push up the price. As a guide, figure the base price of the bike at perhaps $2,700 and add 70% to 80% of the “rare parts value” to that figure to come to an overall bicycle value. 

Up until around 1970 the headbadges will seem to have a brass colored edge, and by 1971 the headbadge will appear to have silver edges. This is now also the era of the full Nuovo Record bike. Many Cinelli frames until around 1972 or so will have provision on the brake and seatstay bridges for fender mounting. Around 1971 or so, Cinelli seems to have used this less often, and the examples with the fender mounting seem to have a slacker geometry. For 1970’s Supercorsa or Specialecorsa bicycles, figure a Nuovo Record equipped bicycle in guideline condition will have a value around $3,000. 

Around 1978 Cinelli was sold to the Columbo family. There are bikes with either the new or old logo's from this period. Until about 1980, the graphics could go either way, but the brake bridges and bottom bracket shells had new Cinelli logos which makes these bikes recognizable. From around 1979 until perhaps 1982, Cinelli bikes with the new logo using a 26.2 seatpost and the lugs with 3 holes in each were very nice. Many do not consider these to be "real" Cinelli bikes, but they are at least as good as many of the earlier ones. Apparently a very good builder with considerable talent was contracted to build these wonderful bicycles. These bikes from this period are classics in their own right. Their geometry is upright, yet the ride is comfortable. These are bikes designed for the fast short distance riding so common in the United States. They, nonetheless, will handle mountain descents with ease as well! These bikes with a full Super Record group are worth nearly $2,000 given the current excitement for Super Record bicycles. And what better place to hand a Super Record group than on a Cinelli?

Sometime around 1983 the "classic period" ended. The 26.2 sleeved seat lug was replaced with a different cast model that used a 27.2 post. The familiar 3 hole lugs were gone as well. Quality during the following years took a pretty heavy hit as well. These examples in Super Record are worth about $1,000. By the late 80's quality improved somewhat but was never like the earlier bikes.

During the mid 1980's, Cinelli introduced the Laser. This frame had smooth sculpted filleted joints, although we've heard from folks who have seen these "naked" that there was often body filler used. But these bikes are extremely elegant and embody the 1980's esthetic that is so popular now. There were three versions of the Laser; road, track, and time trial. Really nice examples with Super Record or C-record often sell for around $4,000.


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## Toomanybikes (Oct 16, 2004)

I am still looking for a Rocky Mountain Blizzard - I would really like to get a lugged steel one.

Hard to find.

I almost broke down lat week and bought a new one - NOS - tig welded. In a shop in AZ.


I really want one of the lugged ones though.

Patience.


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## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

Be sure to stretch before you ride bike like that.


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## Elvis @ Dirt Works (Feb 27, 2006)

I own a (built) 1991 Mantis Pro Floater and a 1995 Pro Floater. I missed out on a mid 80's (mint) XCR and will forever regret it.

The Mantis logo wrapped around my ankle tends to point me in the direction of early Mantis frames...

Elvis.


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## bestmtb (Oct 19, 2004)

*Yeti C26*

Has anyone mentioned Yeti C26?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

bestmtb said:


> Has anyone mentioned Yeti C26?


I wouldn't consider that mass produced.


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## INABIL (Apr 6, 2010)

*Valuable vintage mountain bike*

A Pro-Flex full suspension mountain bike.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Oh lordy.


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## loggerhead (Mar 8, 2009)

INABIL said:


> A Pro-Flex full suspension mountain bike.


please :eekster: most of them are worthless especially the early ones with the elastomer rears. i remember when the full carbon k2 came out. beautiful bike. the following year, cambria was selling them for like $500.


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## shovelon (Mar 16, 2006)

loggerhead said:


> please :eekster: most of them are worthless especially the early ones with the elastomer rears. i remember when the full carbon k2 came out. beautiful bike. the following year, cambria was selling them for like $500.


Yeah, right, like the first technically full suspension producution mountain bikes that Ben Serotta built for Bob Girvin.
:madman: :madman: :madman:


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## loggerhead (Mar 8, 2009)

shovelon said:


> Yeah, right, like the first technically full suspension producution mountain bikes that Ben Serotta built for Bob Girvin.
> :madman: :madman: :madman:


a prototype? thats much different. the first prototype huffy mtn bike is probably worth a fortune. :crazy:


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## shovelon (Mar 16, 2006)

loggerhead said:


> a prototype? thats much different. the first prototype huffy mtn bike is probably worth a fortune. :crazy:


No prototype, I own one.


laffeaux said:


> Cool!
> 
> Here's a pic of a first year OffRoad Pro-Flex. Supposedly it was the first the first bicycle to be sold as a fully-built full-suspension bicycle - previous fs bikes were sold as frames only.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

As far as Pro-Flexes go, that is nice. But I don't think it is particularly sought after.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Not So Much*



yo-Nate-y said:


> As far as Pro-Flexes go, that is nice. But I don't think it is particularly sought after.


They show up on eBay from time to time and there's generally little activity.


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## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

INABIL said:


> A Pro-Flex full suspension mountain bike.


Fail.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Proflex-550-Mou...ewItemQQptZMountain_Bikes?hash=item4a9f9a9445

http://cgi.ebay.com/VERY-CLEAN-PROF...ewItemQQptZMountain_Bikes?hash=item1c111662d1


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## loggerhead (Mar 8, 2009)

looks nice and in good shape, however, like others said, not worth much.maybe it has sentimental value to you or something.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

ameybrook said:


> Fail.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Proflex-550-Mou...ewItemQQptZMountain_Bikes?hash=item4a9f9a9445
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/VERY-CLEAN-PROF...ewItemQQptZMountain_Bikes?hash=item1c111662d1


And most people wouldn't even pay that!


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## shovelon (Mar 16, 2006)

loggerhead said:


> looks nice and in good shape, however, like others said, not worth much.maybe it has sentimental value to you or something.


Thanks, it does look good and does ride great. And I do have sentimental value for it.
In general Proflex is not sought after much, especially the lower end models.
I just want to state that they are not worthless.:nono:


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## proto2000 (Jan 27, 2007)

*Full suspension*



shovelon said:


> Yeah, right, like the first technically full suspension producution mountain bikes that Ben Serotta built for Bob Girvin.
> :madman: :madman: :madman:


Looks like rear suspension only. Is there a Head Shock hiding in there because a Girvin stem does not count? :nono:


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## shovelon (Mar 16, 2006)

proto2000 said:


> because a Girvin stem does not count? :nono:










The hell you say!!!!


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## giantbikeboy (Dec 3, 2004)

THE shovelon? Long time since I've seen that user name.Wish I still had my 4500.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

proto2000 said:


> Looks like rear suspension only. Is there a Head Shock hiding in there because a Girvin stem does not count? :nono:


At the time, that was suspension. That's like a downhiller claiming that a 3-inch travel bike is a rigid bike.


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## shovelon (Mar 16, 2006)

giantbikeboy said:


> THE shovelon? Long time since I've seen that user name.Wish I still had my 4500.


That's me!!!!


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

To answer the original question, I think the most sought after *RETRO* frame would be the Merlin Newsboy. Series, but not quite _mass _produced.


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## spistols (Dec 28, 2008)

How is this for sought after retro frame...1 of 4 made 29" Quadangles- dubbed the Monster Quad. Not an SE bike, but a custom copy by the same person that actually welded the original SE Quadangle 20" BMX back in the day.

Current notable new school components- Paul brakes and White Industries hubs. Notable old school parts- Bullseye hubs and Tuf Nek chainring.


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## davis trouble (Feb 1, 2008)

29" = dumb.
29" Quad = dumber.
29" Landing Gear = dumberer.
Landing Gear (real or not) with brake mounts = dumberest.

SE and all of its cronies are doing themselves a disservice with that kind of stuff.


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

davis trouble said:


> 29" = dumb.
> 29" Quad = dumber.
> 29" Landing Gear = dumberer.
> Landing Gear (real or not) with brake mounts = dumberest.
> ...


Get over yourself. That's all kinds of cool. For a knock around pub runner it would be hard to beat.

Although its no mountain bike.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

It's probably no where near as collectible as lots of other bikes, but I like the 29er BMX bike.


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## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

based on rarity and overall legendary status I would put forth the following suggestions.

1. Off Road toad. Rare as anything out there and supposedly an unbelievably nice riding steel frame. Of course part of the rarity could be that lots (not that there ever were "lots") of them broke, as really nice riding super light steel frames tend to do.

2. Ibis Ti Mojo. Quite rare as well due to the very high msrp when new.

3. Ibis Silk Ti Not as rare but seem to draw a high price for decent used examples. A solid and somewhat novel early suspension design that actually worked.

4. 10th anniversary Fat Chances. There was nothing really special about them as all later yos were basically the same spec. However the paint was gorgeous and one built with m900 is just definitive for how an early 90s bike should look.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

lucifer said:


> based on rarity and overall legendary status I would put forth the following suggestions.
> 
> 1. Off Road toad. Rare as anything out there and supposedly an unbelievably nice riding steel frame. Of course part of the rarity could be that lots (not that there ever were "lots") of them broke, as really nice riding super light steel frames tend to do.
> 
> ...


Ti mojos are not rare... they are expensive. You can buy them on ebay every 3 mo. And the silk ti as well.
Not that those are mediocre bikes. On the contrary....


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