# I want to change the Bike Industry/ World:



## Kallisti (Feb 15, 2005)

I've said before that I want to change the world: that I want to change the way that women are perceived in the bike industry, that I want to help women get on "THEIR" bikes and riding happy.
How can I do that?

Here are the solutions that I've come up with:
-Non-sponsored (so as to remain objective), market research and analysis. First goal - Answer the question:
"what do women really want and need when it comes to bikes, and bike related issues?" As a scientist and former research analyst, I intend to study by research, statistics and survey.
-Educate local bike shops on women's needs through seminar and consultation
-Offer services to local women as a personal shopper
-Produce bike related fashion shows 
-Do charity rides
-Write articles with my research results
-Help design better clothing for women, and build a better bike for women based on research.

I'm telling you gals about this because I'd love your help. I need statistics, and I need women to survey. My current goal is to write an article about women's issues in the bicycle industry. If I could post some surveys and polls here, it would mean a lot to me. I call this "Project Squeaky Wheel"; I want to hear your grievances with all things bike related. I am particularly interested in the opinions of the regular contributors of this forum. 
Maybe my goals seem lofty, but I believe I can reach at least some of these, and that benefits us all.

Thanks so much to all of you. MANY of you in this forum and mtbr.com have been my inspiration to do this.


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

Hmmm........so much to think about...................

What holds the average woman back from trying mtb in the first place?

1) It's a male dominated sport, and therefore more intimidating b/c 
- guys are stronger/faster naturally
- the industry caters to the guys and so you've got the hot models in skimpy clothing all over the advertising- feels unwelcoming
- guys have a different approach to learning
- many guys don't *want* women to ride with them b/c they fear it'll slow 'em down 

2) Expensive sport/women generally earn less (don't think this is a huge factor though)
3) Women tend to have more demands on personal time 
4) Vanity factor: Many women hate being in public all gross and sweaty!
5) We have less upper-body-strength and break bones more easily (I think......right?) 
6) We are naturally more cautious due to higher self-preservation instincts and general common sense 
7) Being alone in the woods is a little less appealing for us! If S.O. doesn't ride, neither will she.
8) Less mechanical aptitude
9) Less experience biking as a kid (BMX comes to mind)

This is based on what I've observed with my own non-riding female acquaintances, young and old....and with my own insecurites!


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## tibug (Dec 5, 2006)

Proof that women are smarter than men in this thread here. Men could never even consider thinking depth-wise as you do, nor do they have the mental capacity to do so.

And I'm a guy... 
Tim


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## Kallisti (Feb 15, 2005)

*Change of plan*

OK, I hear what you're saying. 
How about YOU tell me what you want from the bike industry, from your bike shops. Just let it out here.
Think of it this way; many of you ladies are mavens, experts when it comes to buying mountain biking products. Who better to point out the problems and successes in this area?


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

My suggestion is to not send gals to other websites to get body type definitions. It put me in the "oh, forget it"mode.... can't you just add one word definitions into the body of the survey?


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

'Tis an admirable thing you are doing, but you aren't as alone as you think. There are dozens and dozens of women in the industry that think about this stuff every day. Their livelihoods depend upon it. 

As for surveying this crowd - while their opinons are valuable, this is a very very narrow cross section. All the women on this board care enough about riding to get onto MTBR. That puts them in the 99th percentile. Make sure you hit some Danskin events and other entry level triathlons if you want to see where the real money in cycling is. It isn't on MTBR, no matter how many $5000 bikes we collectively have.

Best,
C


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Sorry I'm a guy, but just had to reply to one piece of the "poll".

OP, where did you get those antiquated figures and did you actually run the calculations on what weight they'd be? I'm 167lbs and given your "formulas" both my road and MTB are "light bikes", but in fact they are not even close to being light bikes. my MTB weighs in under the 20% calculation, but still weighs in around 28-29lbs and my road bike weighs in under the 15% rule but is still a porker of a steel roadie at around 24-25lbs. Even for a 130lb women those calculations still add up to just barely grazing what light is.



> How many of your bikes are "light bikes"? (a light is a bike that is 15% of rider weight or less for road, 20% or less for mtb)


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

That survey really is tedious......and it's only Part One! 

I stopped at the part where I'd have to get up and get a tape measure for measurements.


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## mtbjen (Jan 31, 2004)

I agree. I don't have the time/energy to take my measurements for a survey, but I can see where the numbers would be useful in a scientific sort of way (showing that not all women fit the WSD "standard", for instance).

In short, what do I want out of the cycling world? To be taken as seriously as the men. I KNOW what I want and I have the money to spend. As my husband so eloquently put it in his toast to me on the wedding night -- Jennifer has more bikes than I do and they cost more than mine. And he's an Expert-level racer. I'm not nearly as fast as he is, but I'm just as passionate and just as involved. I wish the cycling world would take us as seriously as the men.

I have 6 bikes, with my most expensive one being in the $4300 range. That, to me, seems like this is more than a "hobby". My "main" bikes I spec'ed out myself. I don't need an LBS to hold my hand just because I'm a girl. I built my last bike with my own hands with my OWN tools (not my husband's). I have never owned a WSD bike (well, does the pink breast cancer cruiser count?). The dimensions do not fit MY body. 

I know that's not neccessarily what you're looking for. You probably want me to fill out the survey, but it's bedtime and I still need to shower, since I just got home from a race AND I have bug spray on me. Yuck.


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## Kallisti (Feb 15, 2005)

*Just the crowd*



chuky said:


> As for surveying this crowd - while their opinons are valuable, this is a very very narrow cross section. All the women on this board care enough about riding to get onto MTBR. That puts them in the 99th percentile.


Exactly, that puts them in a very interesting category, doesn't it? Women who have figured out smart solutions for themselves where the industry has not provided yet, or is not highlighting.

Ex:
Someone I know  used to split her saddle by scoring it down the middle with a knife; this was back in the day, before split saddles were available. That's an example of a clever woman coming up with a solution, but also recognizing a need for a split saddle design.


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## Kallisti (Feb 15, 2005)

*Exactly what I wanted...*



mtbjen said:


> I agree. I don't have the time/energy to take my measurements for a survey, but I can see where the numbers would be useful in a scientific sort of way (showing that not all women fit the WSD "standard", for instance).
> 
> In short, what do I want out of the cycling world? To be taken as seriously as the men. I KNOW what I want and I have the money to spend. As my husband so eloquently put it in his toast to me on the wedding night -- Jennifer has more bikes than I do and they cost more than mine. And he's an Expert-level racer. I'm not nearly as fast as he is, but I'm just as passionate and just as involved. I wish the cycling world would take us as seriously as the men.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time and sorry about the survey


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

Kallisti said:


> I've said before that I want to change the world: that I want to change the way that women are perceived in the bike industry, that I want to help women get on "THEIR" bikes and riding happy.


We share the same goal and are just applying a different means to (hopefully) the same end.

My view is a little different. I, personally, think that the industrusty has evolved enough to satisfy women. There are a variety of bikes, both standard and WSD, from which to choose. After trying on a dozen knicker shorts, I finally slid right into a pair of small She-Beasts that both fit at the waist, and hugged my rump. If I want a pink and flowered slim fit tank top, I can find it. If I want a brown women's sized "club fit" riding shirt, I can find that too.

After 10 years of riding, I finally know how to find these things.

If the goal is to get more women riding and to keep more women riding once they start, the answer isn't in industry advertising. The industry is advertising to people who already ride.

To change the world, we need to get people who aren't riding on bikes. Women aren't riding bikes because a) it's intimidating as all hell, b) their friends aren't doing it, c) if they do decide to ride, who's going to guarentee that that ride will be the best time of their lives?

Personally, I want to change the world through Women's Rides. Every city should have a monthly well-organizing and well-advertised group ride. Plan ride dates 6 months out and make a zillion fliers while your boss ain't looking. Post these at every trailhead kiosk around. Drop off several at every local bike shop and explain the vision.

"When you all sell a bike to a woman, be it comfort, hybrid, or an all-mountain bike, give her this flier. If she comes out to one of our rides, we'll make sure she gets so addicted to the sport that she be back in 6 months buying the $1,000 mountain bike."

Hand fliers out at parking lots, to men and women. For every guy in a parking lot, there's probably a girlfriend, a spouse, a friend, or a sister at home.

Spread the word.

When they come, run the ride so that it brings the female community together. This doesn't mean riding as one big group, it means having the rides of your lives, and getting together afterwards to talk and laugh and commiserate as one big group. Two truths hold for every single group ride run as a single group. It turns off the fast people because they have to stop too much and, more importantly, it turns off the brand spanking new novices because they feel like they are always holding up the group.

So, break the group up. Let the speed demon women have the unique opportunity to rub tires with like-minded and like-abilitied women.

Let the Intermediates rock their mixed pace.

And, most of all, take care of the Novices. Teach them how to get over that 3" root and why you don't wear underwear under spandex. Focus on fun over distance. Who cares if they go for a 2 mile ride if they leave it wanting more next time (once their butt has recovered a bit).

After the monthly Saturday ride, the women would pull up camp chairs, crack open beers, and start telling stories.

This was the ride I ran in South Florida. I advertised it like hell, and it worked. We started with 8, and within a few months of relentless promotion, we had 30 attend the ride at our most technical park.

"I've always wanted to ride this park, but have been afraid to before now."

_Before now._

Before they had a community of peers.

Before they had other women who they could ask questions like, "How do I roll over this?" and, "Do you know where I can find a pair of knickers that fit my waist and hug my butt?"

After a few years, the trailheads were no longer dominated by men. I'd see women scooting off into the woods in pairs on a regular basis. Friends were encouraging their increasingly lean group of "non-riding" friends to come with the promise that there was a special separate group just for first-timers.

To change the world through biking, we need more people on bikes. This is the precipitate that will begin the rest of the reaction.

(P.S. Much respect towards you. It's hard to be an idealist, but somebody's gotta do it.  )


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## mtbjen (Jan 31, 2004)

Great info, Catzilla! Our womens club here in Charlotte, NC (www.dirtdivas.net) has weekly rides that have anywhere from 10 to 40 riders (all women). We also have monthly skills clinics, two out-of-town trips to the mountains each year, road rides, urban rides, etc. Our beginner skills clinics for the past two years have "found" ~50 NEW riders in our area, who have since joined us on our weekly rides and some can now ride circles around me (I taught the clinic).

We went from seeing very few women on the trails 7 years ago, to maintaining 100 members each year in our club -- the numbers have been steady, even with people moving, having babies, etc. We always pick up new members. I remember back in the day being so happy just to see another woman riding. Now, the trailheads are about 60/40 (men/women). That's progress, in my book.

Getting women into the sport involves a bit of a grass-roots effort and a lot of personal encouragement.


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## IttyBittyBetty (Aug 11, 2005)

*Am I retarded?*

I cannot find the survey everyone is talking about.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

I wasn't the one that came up with the saddle solution - it has been done for ages, and a lot of people still do it. The women at Terry solved that problem for me in 1994, when they saw an economic opportunity and created a product that worked and sold. (the Terry women are awesome, BTW - I totally want to be them when I grow up). 

Catzilla is right (C- met your counterparts A&J last week - they are super fun!). Let's not confuse complaining about product availability with advocacy.You want to change cycling? Get more women on bikes. Not these women - they are the exception to the rule. I am talking about the true newbs, the women who would prefer to be doing almost anything else besides riding bikes. Donate your time to organizing clubs, rides and clinics. Get low income women onto the free track bikes at Encino velodrome. Show people from places that don't have a cycling community how much fun it is to ride and create new communities. Establish a peer group with some buying power and demonstrate to your shops that you have a need they aren't addressing. 

There is a group ride in Park City run by Team Sugar. There are typically about 50 women in attendance. They meet every Tuesday night and split into 4 ability levels. The newbs go out and learn about their shifters, and I get to ride fast with 10 kick-a** women. This is the only women's event I have ever attended that I keep returning to. The Sugar girls make a lot of sacrifices to get these rides organized. They give up their own ride time, they ride with the slow groups when they would rather be riding with the fast group, and they are out there no matter what the weather or mood. I have a lot of respect for this kind of advocacy, and would glady sponsor them if they asked. Team Sugar is influential and affects local shop sales by making recommendations to the new riders they educate.

Fact of the matter is this: the bike industry will make any product that is going to show a profit. These are business people, and they need to grow their companies in order to keep their jobs. I have participated in many meetings where the subject of this or that women's-oriented product was discussed. In many cases, development of additional women's products by those companies was stymied by poor sales of exisiting (good) products. Surveys and complaining have almost zero affect on product development if the sales aren't there to back them up.

Here is an example: PINK. Women either have a huge problem with pink or they love pink. The industry sees it a bit differently. Pink is a simple, universal, very low-cost way to designate a product as "women's specific". When this product is on the shop floor, everyone who sees it (even from a distance) will know what makes it special (particularly the newer customer who is not attuned to the less obvious WSD details). This promotes more sales, which means that the dealer will see it as a profitable, which means that the shop orders more product, which means that the mfctr sells through the original product run, which then allows for a new order to be placed at the factory. If the first run sells out, the mfctr will be encouraged and consider adding a second color as an option. Additionally, success of a product encourages competition, and forces prices down. So, what do you think happens when the first thing a dealer hears is "GAWD, I hate pink" uttered by a woman that they know rides a lot, and then she buys a unisex product?

Technically, if you aren't riding a WSD bike right now, with a WSD saddle on it, and if you aren't wearing WSD clothing and shoes, and if you aren't buying WSD armour, then you are a compelling argument for why we don't need more women's products. There are women's products in every category now, and if you still choose to use a unisex product, this is because unisex works better for you, or because the price of the unisex product was more important than the function of the WSD product.

As for the women on this board, they are not a representative category. Experienced riders tend to shop online, they bargin hunt, they buy used equipment and their high-end bikes are the least profitable part of most bike shop's businesses. Very few companies can afford to cater to this crowd exclusively, as the sales volume is low. 

All of the above applies to any peer group, BTW. I see a lot of complaining from clydes, athenas, short riders, tall riders, riders with bad backs, etc. Everyone wants a product that is perfect for them and all you have to do to get it is show the shops that it can be profitable to cater to your group. 

Best,
C


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## Kallisti (Feb 15, 2005)

*I pulled it down*



IttyBittyBetty said:


> I cannot find the survey everyone is talking about.


Because it was way too much too soon.
Here's the basics:
What's your biggest grievance or issue (bike related)?
Did you have a problem finding a bike (or clothing, accessories, etc) that was right for you? 
What worked out great for you?

I'm looking for fine whines.....


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

IttyBittyBetty said:


> I cannot find the survey everyone is talking about.


It was edited /removed by Kallisti, you aren't going crazy! 

I think there are 2 separate issues here:

1) wanting to change the perception of the women's market by the biking industry (mandates defining what the current perception is), and

2) helping "women" get on their bikes. (need to define "women" too - existing bike riders?newbies? roadies? mtb'ers ? everyone).

Kallisti can you clarify a bit, I think that can help people respond.


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## mtbchik (Jul 5, 2005)

Chuky, I'll be in PC the 16th - 20th for meetings, but would love to try to get together and ride. PM me if you are available. Are things drying out?

I lived up there for two years and rode with the Sugar girls. Far too much fun!


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## cyberdivachick (Jan 30, 2007)

Wow! What an awsome thread! As a woman riding under 2 years, the 2 biggest problems I have encountered are:
1) Barely any women specific bikes in stock to demo and most shops will not order them for you to try unless you guarantee you are going to purchase one of them.
2) No shops but REI once in while offer free hands on bike maintenance. I would even pay for this. I would really, really like to be able to fix things on my own. I don't have to be able to take the entire bike apart, but just basic repairs. This is my biggest complaint, no one offers help with bike maintenance or basic repairs.


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## IttyBittyBetty (Aug 11, 2005)

*Darn - I love surveys!*

Anyway, here's my input on Kalisti's questions - I'm giving you a lot of information:

*What's your biggest grievance or issue (bike related)?*
Although I am generally thrilled with the state of mountain biking, I have a few "beefs" Some of these may honk off other women since I think part of the problem lies within us as a group, so please take them as constructive criticisms.

1. *There are not enough women who ride serious off-road trails.* Many women are far too wussy about riding technical trails, and I for the life of me cannot figure out why. The women that post on mtbr are obviously an exception, however, I meet lots of women who were Tomboys growing up but feel intimidated by anything more than a gravel double track. Many of these women are superb road riders, so they have the fitness. What gives? Why are these women afraid of dirt? I know these women could learn to ride technical trails and I know they would LOVE it (I have found very few things in life as satisfying and empowering as cleaning a tough technical section of trail). This problem cannot be solved by the bike industry alone, although they can help in some of the ways mentioned earlier in this thread. Somehow most women don't see mountain biking as a sport for women. And/or they develop a fear of falling on the dirt. These are the same women who play lacrosse and soccer, taking hard hits with other players, making slide tackles, etc. Why is it OK to be physical in those sports but not on a mountain bike? What needs to be done in the raising of girls and young women to change their perceptions about mountain biking being a sport for women? I don't have the answer to this.

2.* It is really hard to get women on Women's Rides.* BRG coordinates a great Tuesday night Girls Ride that many women say they are interested in. However, there have been several times when she and I are the only ones who show up (don't get me wrong, I'll ride with BRG anyday!). This past Tuesday was an exception and there were four of us, including a newbie. Even though I didn't ride as hard or as much as the rides just with BRG, it was the most satisfying ride because of the sense of accomplishment our new girl had after the ride (she freakin' rocked).

I think one of the reasons it's hard to get women out is that they have so many other things on their plate and women feel guilty about not getting all their other duties done before heading out to play (men don't seem to have this problem!). Clearly, I don't advocate leaving your baby alone while heading out for a ride, but the vacuuming and grocery shopping can wait! So can the boyfriend/husband - he will survive an evening without you. I actually think this devotion to other duties is a big reason many women don't mountain bike. Mountain biking can take the good part of a day (although some of us are lucky to have trails close by that allow for a 2 to 3 hour getaway). I think many women find it easier to get out for an hour run or a two hour road ride than to devote 6 hours to a mountain biking trip.

In Boulder, another hinderence to Women's Rides is the goofy local restriction on the size of organized groups that ride on public trails. A limit of I think 25 people was imposed a couple years ago. This caused a group that orgainzed very popular Women's Rides targeted to beginners to stop the rides. What a shame.

3. *Men often have a tough time NOT riding competively with each other, so if a woman tries to join them, she may be left behind, only to see her group at intersections waiting for her.* For a lot of women new to the sport, being left alone on a trail is terrifying - she doesn't know where she is or where her car is, she has no idea how far ahead the rest of the group is, she may be afraid of snakes/mountain lions/bears/falling, etc. Plus being alone often isn't as much fun as having company. This is one reason I like the women's rides for newbies, but I also think it would be nice if men made an effort on rides attended by less experienced women to have someone play sweep. It is in their best interests to help develop more female mountain bikers.

*
Did you have a problem finding a bike (or clothing, accessories, etc) that was right for you?*

Yes I do! There are not many bikes, packs, or clothing items that fit me. Bear in mind, I am only 5'1", but the average woman in the US is only 5'4", so I must have a lot of company! Out here in Bouder, it seems like half the female athletes I see out running, climbing and riding are my size. Despite this, all the outdoor stores run out of the small and extra small clothing items right away, leaving the large and extra larges on the racks forever. Why don't these retailers buy more small sizes? The other problem is that most of the brick and morter stores do not carry a lot of serious female mountain biking clothes or gear (like armour), even when these products exist. Of course, the solution there is to buy on-line. As far as bikes go, there are very few stock frames that fit me, so unless I go custom, I am limited in my choice. There are finally now some packs being made for women, but they are too small in storage space and bladder size. I want a women's-sized hydration pack (smaller strapswithout making the whole thing tiny) for endurance events, just like the boys!

*What worked out great for you? *

On the subject of getting women out to ride, when I first started I was the beneficiary of riding with a group of exceptional female riders who had the patience to bring me along and helped me improve my skills. Let's all keep dragging new female riders out!

As far a bikes that fit, going custom is my solution. Granted, this is expensive, so not everyone is wiling or can go this route.

I do think theres' a much bigger choice of women's riding clothing now, although you often need to buy it on-line.


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## IttyBittyBetty (Aug 11, 2005)

*Basic Maintenance Skills*



cyberdivachick said:


> 2) No shops but REI once in while offer free hands on bike maintenance. I would even pay for this. I would really, really like to be able to fix things on my own. I don't have to be able to take the entire bike apart, but just basic repairs. This is my biggest complaint, no one offers help with bike maintenance or basic repairs.


What a great point! Being confident that you can fix a flat certainly makes one more comfortable out on the trail. When I lived in Ohio, there were some shops that offered bike maintenance classes from beginner to advanced. You had to pay, but thery were well worth the money. Try asking some local shops if they would put on such classes. The ones I took were held in the off-season when the shop was slow anyway. Alternatively, us more experienced riders can offer to hold clinics of own. BRG - interested in collaborating on this for the Front Range Girls?


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## JMH (Feb 23, 2005)

*Trailside Maintenance*

Here is a program that works:

Chuky and I used to teach introductory maintenance classes at the shop we worked at. It was indeed a popular course, taking about an hour once a month. We discussed helmet fit, basic trail tool kits, flat repair and pre-ride bike checks. Inevitably this would seque into discussions about clipless pedals, and in Chucky's case, women's saddles and shorts.

The class was put on by our shop and was free with a bike purchase, or $10 for others. The teachers of the class would get all the class fees, thus encouraging us to sign up as many people as possible. The shop benefitted in other ways: return customers and additional sales. We would always sell at least a few hundred dollars worth of tools, helmets and equipment at every class.

Customers left satisfied and better prepared. I usually left with $100 in my pocket for an hour of my time.

Why don't more shops do this? Because they are typically unimaginative and it sounds hard. Time is the one thing that nobody wants to donate.

It would be a simple thing to approach a local shop manager and offer your time once each month to teach a basic maintenance course. All you need is a quiet corner in the shop, right before or right after closing time. Have a basic tool kit ready to go. I promise that 80% of your students will buy all the same tools right there on the spot. Once the owner sees you are directly contributing to his shop making an additional $500 every time you teach, you can bet he will start signing up more folks! Women-Only classes are a natural extension of this program.:thumbsup:

JMH


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

catzilla said:


> Two truths hold for every single group ride run as a single group. It turns off the fast people because they have to stop too much and, more importantly, it turns off the brand spanking new novices because they feel like they are always holding up the group. )


No kidding. I almost always prefer to ride with guys over women, for 2 reasons.

- If I ride with women who are slower than I am, I have to listen to them talk about how much slower they are, how out of shape they are, etc. Frankly, I can't think of a lamer set of conversational topics and for some reason it is incessant, no matter how many times I tell them that I like them, that I have a clear understanding of their fitness level, and that I was just hoping for a nice mellow ride with some good gossip. The fact is, with most people, I can tell how fast they are by how they unload their bike from their roof-rack and if I ride with them it is because they are good company, not because I need a strong training partner. JMH is my fast training partner, and I have no desire to replace him ;-).

- Women's groups have a way of making me feel like a jerk for being fit, strong and technically capable. I don't know if it is because women deal poorly with competition for the most part (guys learn about competition as soon as they can play with other boys, women sometimes learn in college) or what, but I almost always leave women's rides feeling like I have ruined the ride for slower riders, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the other women on the ride were unhappy with my being there. This is why the Sugar ride is so good. I know those girls can handle the pace, and that if the group splits up, we have an understanding of how we handle re-groups, etc.

In general, guys are much easier to deal with. The fastest, best rider is in charge. This, I can relate to.

Cheers,
C


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

chuky said:


> No kidding. I almost always prefer to ride with guys over women, for 2 reasons.
> 
> - If I ride with women who are slower than I am, I have to listen to them talk about how much slower they are, how out of shape they are, etc. Frankly, I can't think of a lamer set of conversational topics and for some reason it is incessant, no matter how many times I tell them that I like them, that I have a clear understanding of their fitness level, and that I was just hoping for a nice mellow ride with some good gossip.


Hey now - it's not just limited to women - I have ridden with plenty of guys who have given me a laundry list of reasons why they are slower than me on a given day.

But I believe you are correct in surmising that it more often is women. In my experience, my slower female friends have a harder time believing that I want to ride with them because I like their company & they worry more about performance. I am sure I have complained about being slow/out of shape at times! But I also believe that I don't get invited on a ride if people don't want to ride with me. Took me a while to get this.

From the back of the pack perspective, as opposed to chuky's front of the pack: rarely will a person / group get pissed off if you are slow, although it can happen and has definitely happened to me on a number of occasions. I guess it can make an negative impact, although I just made a mental note to not ride with that person/group again in the future on the few instances that it happened.

The corollary to this of course is to also realize that just because someone rides a bike, or is female and rides a bike, doesn't instantly give them a great personality, or make them compatible as friends (although it sure helps!).


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

chuky said:


> No kidding. I almost always prefer to ride with guys over women, for 2 reasons.
> 
> - If I ride with women who are slower than I am, I have to listen to them talk about how much slower they are, how out of shape they are, etc. Frankly, I can't think of a lamer set of conversational topics and for some reason it is incessant, no matter how many times I tell them that I like them, that I have a clear understanding of their fitness level, and that I was just hoping for a nice mellow ride with some good gossip. The fact is, with most people, I can tell how fast they are by how they unload their bike from their roof-rack and if I ride with them it is because they are good company, not because I need a strong training partner. JMH is my fast training partner, and I have no desire to replace him ;-).
> 
> ...


Heh - I can relate to this too, and I'm not even very fast on XC stuff. I've avoided group rides in the past (particularly with lots of women) because I'm generally slow on the uphill and fast on the descent. By the time I get to the top there would be a big group of people walking the technical portions I struggled to get to the top to ride, and it would totally ruin my favorite part of the ride. I'd rather ride alone. I'm sure there are plenty of people who felt the same way about having to pass me on the climbs, but it's frustrating. So I'd just ride with the guys I know who are like me - pedaling big heavy bikes up to have fun on the way back down. Not many women fall into that category, so I mostly ride with guys to keep the same pace.

Honestly, now that I have the SS, I'm thinking I should head back out on some group rides. Now I'm faster on the climb and the rigid bike slows me down on the descents and I'd probably fit right in.

Anyway, I will also say it's frustrating to listen to women who are so stressed that they're holding you back. I did a women's only ski camp once, that involved hiking and one girl was sobbing because she felt so bad about holding the other women back when she needed to rest. STOP IT. If I was worried about going as fast as I possibly could, I'd have chosen a riding partner specifically for that task, or would have just gone alone. 99.9% of even the fastest riders don't mind going at a slow pace, doubling back, playing around on obstacles, etc. when they're riding with newbies, but it's a near-impossible task to explain that to the people who feel theyr'e holding others back. I've been there, I've felt that way myself, but I wish there was a way to convince newbies it's true - people don't mind waiting for you if they invited you on the ride in the first place.

Most people enjoy sharing their passions with newbies and that's fun to do sometimes. But my absolute favorite people to ride with, really, are the ones who are openly competitive (yet friendly and supportive). I do know a few other women (all from racing DH) who fall into that category, but mostly it's guys. And that's the most fun. One of my dear friends regularly tells me I'm his "target". When he's behind me, I speed up and try to drop him. When he's in front I try to stay right on his tire and make him go faster and scare the crap out of myself going fast to try and not let him get away, because I know he's doing his best to leave me in the dust (and he does sometimes.) My competitive nature makes me ride harder and push myself and it's so fun. I honestly have no idea why some women shy away from the competitive angle of things. Racing isn't really all that fun to me, because it's too serious (and in DH I'm on the course alone which makes it hard IMO). But friendly competition is a blast.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

connie said:


> I honestly have no idea why some women shy away from the competitive angle of things.


I have a theory...

I think it is because women don't learn the difference between "competitive" and "mean" when they are kids, like boys do, and end up having to figure it out late in life. This leads to some social confusion at a stage when most of us like to think we understand human interaction.

On one end of the scale you end up with women who are afraid to excel, because they are uncomfortable with how their peers will treat them if they are trying to exceed their peer's standards. They tend to form a culture of "supportive suckitude" where failure is okay, and not pushing oneself is best. These are women who complain about "that fast b*tch". On the other end, you end up with ultra-competitve women who don't know how to be stronger than the people around them without also being derisive jerks. You get a lot of the second type in the lower levels of racing, before they mature enough to understand how to leave competition on the road/trail.

It would be a lot easier if we could learn about competition when we are five years old...


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

Well, you've certainly gotten a lot of feedback. I'm going to offer a different bit of perspective....

As wonderful as I'm sure everyone here is, a lot of the sentiment in these posts is pretty darn intimidating to someone like me who has severely limited riding time, fitness, and skills. And I'm saying that as a person that's been a fairly dedicated cyclist for over 15 years.

If *I* ever have a chance to take part in an organized ride (fat chance but we're talking fantasy here), you can bet I'll be back with the newbs. We'll stop often to discuss plant life, ID bird calls, look at animal tracks or bugs in the dirt, take a poll on our favorite childhood cereal, compare song-brainworms and subsequently inflict them on each other (can you say 'group sing?'), etc.

Of course this is coming from one half of a couple that finds it tremendously amusing to occasionally pinch each other's butt while riding. Gimme glittery streamers, a banana seat, and a package of Pop Rocks with a can of Coke and my image should be fairly complete....


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

chuky said:


> I have a theory...
> It would be a lot easier if we could learn about competition when we are five years old...


oh we did - it's just not about sports - if you disagree, watch the reaction of women in the room when a young gorgeous voloptuos blonde walks into a party....

female competition has traditionally been honed for other goals rather than sports fitness or intellectual achievement...after all for thousands of years the main measure of success for a woman was measured by how great a catch her husband was and how nice a home she kept, how well raised her children were.....but how things have changed! I truly believe that the upcoming generations will excel in life & sports as they have more independence, more role models and more expectations....lets hope we teach them well.....

sorry to get off topic kallisti, although i think its all relevant....


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Impy said:


> oh we did - it's just not about sports - if you disagree, watch the reaction of women in the room when a young gorgeous voloptuos blonde walks into a party.....


Isn't that exactly my point? She walks into the room and the women who see her as "competition" ostracize her/shut her out, rather than trying to improve themselves or show their own good points.

A strong guy shows up and everyone just want to be his buddy, associate with the alpha dog... he has an immediate in.


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## brg (Sep 7, 2004)

*done! *



IttyBittyBetty said:


> What a great point! Being confident that you can fix a flat certainly makes one more comfortable out on the trail. When I lived in Ohio, there were some shops that offered bike maintenance classes from beginner to advanced.....BRG - interested in collaborating on this for the Front Range Girls?


Luna Chix are holding a series of clinics with maintenence classes.

from the local paper.

_"And, just for the ladies, the Luna Chix free skills clinics are back. The team of ambassador riders, sponsored by Luna Bar, will hold their spring clinics on May 22, 29 and June 5. Topics will include basic skills, climbing and descending, cornering and more. Attendees will also have the opportunity to try out demo bikes from Sports Garage, as well as attend bike maintenance courses hosted by the shop.

Arrive by 5:30 p.m. ready to ride (helmets required, of course) at the University of Colorado Research Park trails, near Discovery Drive. In addition to the Luna Chix, local pro and expert riders will be on hand to help y*ou improve your skills in a laid-back, testosterone-free setting."*
_

what a great thread - i hope to have more time to respond to some of the great comments - but i gotta work!


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

chuky said:


> Isn't that exactly my point? She walks into the room and the women who see her as "competition" ostracize her/shut her out, rather than trying to improve themselves or show their own good points.
> 
> A strong guy shows up and everyone just want to be his buddy, associate with the alpha dog... he has an immediate in.


Check this thread out - some of the guys make some interesting and funny points about rides....
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=290498



chuky said:


> A strong guy shows up and everyone just want to be his buddy, associate with the alpha dog... he has an immediate in.


I don't agree completely with this. If he is an a**hole, he will be ostracized, at least with the group of guys I ride with.


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## mtbjen (Jan 31, 2004)

On our group rides, we already have ride leaders for three, sometimes four different levels. Many times the leaders aren't sacrificing anything, since they are actually at that level. We do, however, usually put a more advanced girl with the beginners, since she can offer advice if needed. There is a fast "race-paced" group for the hammer heads, an "advanced" group that only regroups as necessary at trail intersections, "intermediate" or "social" group, and a "beginner" group. The ones in beginners aren't all necessarily beginners, but are looking for a slow, laid back ride with many stops. The social group just rides at an intermediate pace. You get in a group, and generally know what to expect. No hang-ups, no guilt, just a ride for everyone...


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

stripes said:


> I also don't have the urge to kill myself on the trails. I want to enjoy the birds, the scenery, and just generally have a darn good time


That describes most of us, we just do it at a different pace, sometimes. We took a lot of pictures of lizards and flowers last weekend...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157600158357342/

Being intimidated/bothered by someone else's ability is a big part of the problem. Why can't we accept that we have different fitness levels? My hard training rides would probably not be much fun for you, but if we were to ride together, I would do it with the expectation that we would go at a mellow pace and have fun conversation. I doubt that Connie, BRG, Catzilla, Formica or RT would show up to ride with you and then hammer you into the ground, and neither would I. But the idea that our mere presence would cause you great intimidation and social discomfort would make the ride pretty sucky for any of us, I think. The last thing I want to do is bum someone out and ruin their ride.


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## verslowrdr (Mar 22, 2004)

chuky said:


> ...I doubt that Connie, BRG, Catzilla, Formica or RT would show up to ride with you and then hammer you into the ground...


Two thoughts in response to this:
1. Never underestimate the gigantic sucking ego needs of a$$hats.
2. Never underestimate the number of a$$hats out there.

I have some seriously twisted stories I could tell from my other sport- mushing. These are particularly ugly because such folks are trying to get their ego shot from using their DOGS to hammer other teams, even just on 'fun runs'.

Women often have a low tolerance for this sort of thing to begin with, and my fuse has been further shorted by putting up with a considerable amount of testosterone poisoning at work (with a smile no less if I want to keep paying my bills). I seriously doubt I'm the only woman out there that just doesn't feel like 'proving' anything in her free time.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Yeah, but we would have to split into groups. ;-)


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

That is my point - none of would expect you to prove a darn thing.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

Impy said:


> Hey now - it's not just limited to women - I have ridden with plenty of guys who have given me a laundry list of reasons why they are slower than me on a given day.


Heh. I will say that the first few years I was riding, my husband heard "I hate climbing, I'm so slow, just go on without me, quit waiting for me, you're just disrupting my (slow) pace, I'm so out of shape..." a lot more than I care to admit.

So I went to spin class all last winter and bought that SS. And we went on a ride and I dropped my husband pretty fast. And when he caught up it was "You should just go. I can't ride at that pace, I need to spin. I'm so out of shape. I need a new light bike. Just leave me back here and go ahead..." It was like someone recorded the dialogue of me riding a few years ago and was playing it back at me.

So yes - anyone can have a bad day and be whiny. It's certainly not just women.  It does tend to be women who worry about being slow more. And most of the time it's needless worry.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

chuky said:


> Yeah, but we would have to split into groups. ;-)


Heh. I'm always good as long as the expecations are put out there ahead of time. Are there people involved who worry about getting left behind? Do we want to take our time and all work on obstacles together? Are we racing each other? Every man for themself? Taking pictures and checking out the scenery? Is it okay to split into groups?

That's what is so nice about a well-established riding group - you know the deal. Not that it's that difficult with a new group, but you have to talk about those things or someone is likely to be upset because it's not what they expect.

And I do thing a big WL get together would be way fun.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

chuky said:


> Isn't that exactly my point? She walks into the room and the women who see her as "competition" ostracize her/shut her out, rather than trying to improve themselves or show their own good points.
> 
> A strong guy shows up and everyone just want to be his buddy, associate with the alpha dog... he has an immediate in.


Yeah, I think it's something like that. I think some women don't differentiate between friendly competition and "I wish she would get hit by a truck" competition.

The most fun form of competition is when you both get better for trying to outdo one another. You may want to beat them today, but you want them to keep improving and pushing you to do more (or dragging you along - whatever the case may be).


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

chuky said:


> That describes most of us, we just do it at a different pace, sometimes. We took a lot of pictures of lizards and flowers last weekend...
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157600158357342/
> 
> Being intimidated/bothered by someone else's ability is a big part of the problem. Why can't we accept that we have different fitness levels? My hard training rides would probably not be much fun for you, but if we were to ride together, I would do it with the expectation that we would go at a mellow pace and have fun conversation. I doubt that Connie, BRG, Catzilla, Formica or RT would show up to ride with you and then hammer you into the ground, and neither would I. But the idea that our mere presence would cause you great intimidation and social discomfort would make the ride pretty sucky for any of us, I think. The last thing I want to do is bum someone out and ruin their ride.


This is a really interesting comment. I'm totally flattered by what you think of my online biker gal persona, and would like to think it has some basis in reality. Sometimes I worry about how I am perceived locally - I've invited beginner gals out many a time, gf's of guys I know, and I've heard things like " I dunno, I've heard you are a real animal". I'm not even given the chance to be mellow. Meanwhile, I am looking over my shoulder thinking the animal is someone else... Maybe it's because I like to ride a lot? At the sacrifice of other things? Maybe I've been to bike camps three times and raved about how it changed my life? President of the local mtb club?I'd like to think I am the kind of rider who when taking beginners out makes sure they have fun and have a good time...

I LOVE catzilla's idea. I just wish I had a clone. I am up to my eyeballs already with getting an infant advocacy club going, and I'm having to pick and choose things very carefully as I am so busy with it I don't want to burn out. Yet another good idea...

~f.

edit. wow we've seriously derailed this thread.


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

Group rides for women simply need to be labeled according to skill level and purpose: "Fast training ride" or "Slow nature-appreciation ride" or "Moderate social" or whatever. No differently than any other group ride.

Around here, the only reason why that's difficult is because there are so few female mtb riders and such a wide diversity among them. I think for our area, a "women-friendly" ride would fare better than a "women only" ride. And that wouldn't really mean anything except that nobody gets dropped- calling it such would just make it less intimidating and get more women to notice.

I agree that the main problem isn't with a lack of WSD bike stuff....maybe a little better representation in Performance, for example. And as Stripes said, "more eye candy for US." Honestly! There's a serious lack of _beefcake._

OTOT, there's also a serious lack of exposure for the female stars of mtb. If we saw more of them around- even on TV commercials (like the "thank heaven for little grrrrrls" Mountain Dew ad from years back) it might get non-biking women/girls thinking about it. But this is a problem in all pro sports.

Women in general just need to become more comfortable with the vunerability of getting hurt, being alone once in a while, and being seen at their most horrendous-looking. I know women who never wear shorts due to varicose veins; one who said to me, "Don't those shorts make your ass look big?"; older women who get their hair done once/week; who would never spend free time w/o the S.O.; that sort of thing.


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## aword4you (Jul 25, 2005)

I'm enjoying reading all the info on here. I'd be down for a WL ride if it worked out! We're all so spread out, though  

BTW, Cedric Gracia is kinda hot, and so is Thomas Vanderham, Tyler Klassen, and I kinda like Ryan Leech. I know, younger guys, but I'm in that age group!


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## Leadghost (Sep 13, 2004)

chuky said:


> Isn't that exactly my point? She walks into the room and the women who see her as "competition" ostracize her/shut her out, rather than trying to improve themselves or show their own good points.
> 
> A strong guy shows up and everyone just want to be his buddy, associate with the alpha dog... he has an immediate in.


I have to disagree with this assessment as well. It depends on your place in the social pecking order too how you treat someone like this.

If you were one of the scrawny little kids who got picked last in everything in gym class all those years ago you'll do the same thing towards him as you do to the young blonde. You see him as either the representation of everything shallow and hurtful in the world from past experiences or as competition with which you must compete against for the attentions of the opposite sex. Vice versa, if you're one of the guys who was friends with this type of guy and you view yourself as having a slight leg up on him then you might welcome him into your crowd knowing he cannot compete with you.

We all like to see the benefits the other sex offers over us. Call it the 'grass is always greener' syndrome if you will. But sometimes we fail to see how the situations for the opposite sex mirror our own. Personal confidence and pride are difficult for everyone, not just women or men. We all have our little idiosyncrasies in how shallow or deep we view things. Some people are just better with experience or what have you in looking past or examining why.

In regards to women in sports, hopefully it's on the rise. Yet women only tend to get the support for sports related activities in cultures that support individuality and achievement. Once you're past the battle of whose place it is in the domicile then you can argue about whose place it is on the podium unfortunately in other cultures. (And yes, I want women on podiums, eye candy with real legs and skill is gr8!)


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## Bluebug32 (Jan 13, 2006)

This is a great thread. 8 out of 10 times I ride, I ride with a group of guys and more often than not, I set the bar way too high, forgetting that we're naturally riding on different levels and then become frustrated when I can't keep up.


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## JMH (Feb 23, 2005)

*Beefcake?*

Be careful what you ask for! Check out this hot Norwegian that Chuky hooked up with...

Oh yeah... I can just feel the embarrassment she must be feeling right now for her dorky husband. But you have to admit, the orange socks matching the jersey pretty much make the outfit. And off road, a slimming long sleeve jersey makes tasteful baggies absolutely fabulous. It's the little details, ladies.

I now return this thread to it's original topic.

JMH


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## Bluebug32 (Jan 13, 2006)

that's like a reverse camel toe!


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## BettyGoHard.Com (May 3, 2007)

I really liked what Catzilla has to say - check out www.bettygohard.com a website for the women's extreme sports community. Its all about inspiring, motivating and encourging your girlfriends to get out and have fun. Creating environments where there are no boundaries, no expectations just doing what you enjoy because we can!!

So often I hear girls saying that riding is for their husband, but when suggested to go riding with a group of women that feel the same way they are keen, it is not the sport it is confidence that we need to create for these girls.

Check out our women only non instructional camps at www.bettygohard.com. We have something for all levels and fitness.

Tash.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Ok back to original topic - I'd like to see more armor choices for gals. I know this is not a big money maker but it would be nice to have options.

*********

I must be getting soft. I can't think of anything else to whine about that doesn't ultimately default back to getting more women in the sport..


And to be 100% honest, sometimes I'm not sure why it matters to recruit reluctant women onto the trail in the first place. Is that a horrible thing to think?  (Keep in mind that I am speaking from the comfortable perspective of having a really great riding gang with female and male friends that I ride with already, and I also live in a congested area with trails that I don't really want to get any busier, and I don't give a fig about racing other than once a year.) I know, I know, the more gals that are out there clamoring for more products, the more products will get developed and we will all be happier girls on bikes.......but sometimes I have selfish thoughts.:devil: .... only human.....and not in the business of making money from bikes, so forgive me, industry people....

feel free to flame away


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Impy said:


> And to be 100% honest, sometimes I'm not sure why it matters to recruit reluctant women onto the trail in the first place. Is that a horrible thing to think?


No, it isn't horrible. And I mostly agree.

I get my chick-fix at stitch-n-b*tch. I don't ride because other women do, I ride because I love it.

(I did meet some cool mtb'rs via stitch-n-b*tch, though)

C


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

It's not like I enjoy mtb less b/c there aren't more women; instead, I remember how it was starting out.

I didn't know any women OR men in the sport. But I'm pretty sure if I were a guy, I would've had an easier time getting involved from the get-go. There was one guy in my dorm who was really into trials and DH. He loved talking to me about mtb but it never occurred to me that I could ride with him as a beginner.

So for the sake of other girls/women who want to get started, and don't have a S.O. or female friends already into it, would be nice. Although with the internet and increased popularity since I got my first mtb, I doubt it's such a problem anymore.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Christine said:


> It's not like I enjoy mtb less b/c there aren't more women; instead, I remember how it was starting out.
> 
> I didn't know any women OR men in the sport. But I'm pretty sure if I were a guy, I would've had an easier time getting involved from the get-go. There was one guy in my dorm who was really into trials and DH. He loved talking to me about mtb but it never occurred to me that I could ride with him as a beginner.
> 
> So for the sake of other girls/women who want to get started, and don't have a S.O. or female friends already into it, would be nice. Although with the internet and increased popularity since I got my first mtb, I doubt it's such a problem anymore.


I can see your point, and female role models are definitely important and inspiring, and have value in and of themselves, independant of commercial value.

I wonder if other sports also worry about recruiting female members (snowboarding? surfing? motocross?) or not.


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## catzilla (Jan 31, 2004)

Impy said:


> I wonder if other sports also worry about recruiting female members (snowboarding? surfing? motocross?) or not.


With the exception of motocross, the other two sports aren't still fighting for access or seeing their numbers start to drop.

I dig being selfish. I want more women to ride because I want their kids to grow up riding. I want people to value and empathize with a beginner's experience because I want the number of people mountain biking to go up, which will only happen by growing the sport from the bottom. When the number of people on wheels go up, so will political power and grassroots support.

So, yeah, I totally dig being selfish. I want to approach a land manager with the idea of constructing a 15 mile trail system, including a skills development area and a freeride area and have them respond, "That would really serve the community at large better than a golf course...and it's cheaper to build, too."

I want to be too old to ride trails anymore and sit at a picnic table watching my grandkids ride around a skills area right next to their neighborhood playground.

Once you take the intimidation factor away, bikes are just fun - fun for women, for kids, for cooped up office jockeys, for cross-training, for health, for former runners, for...


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## BettyGoHard.Com (May 3, 2007)

*yeah true that Catzilla*

I'm with Catzilla, the more people participating in alternative sports the more people are thinking alternatively. If you do something in the outdoors you grow up appreciating the outdoors.

Riding a bike is fun, if everybody was having more fun in their lives the world would be a much nicer place to be. Lets inspire people to just get out and do it, females, kids, grandparents more people mean more infrastructure. :thumbsup:


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

catzilla said:


> So, yeah, I totally dig being selfish. I want to approach a land manager with the idea of constructing a 15 mile trail system, including a skills development area and a freeride area and have them respond, "That would really serve the community at large better than a golf course...and it's cheaper to build, too."


That would rock! I hope we one day do evolve to an healthy and active enough society in which an area that is devoted to fitness is preferred to a revenue based venture based on the wealthy driving around in little golf carts.


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