# Videos to deter riders from muddy trails?



## DirtyMtnBikeHer (Jul 30, 2009)

Does anyone know of any videos (youtube, vimeo, etc.) that can be easily posted on facebook, etc to encourage riders to not ride the muddy trails? Just saying it over and over is repetitive and I would think a good short video would be a good way to go. Wanted to see if anyone knew of one. I've looked a little bit with no such luck.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

I did a little looking around too and didn't have any luck. The problem is that riding in mud looks like, and is, a lot of fun. All the video I found (mostly on Pinkbike) would likely encourage people to ride in the mud. Maybe if you showed the video and then said, "Look, people on Pinkbike think it's a good idea so it can't be right) 

I wasn't able to find any video of people sweating in the hot sun trying to repair deep ruts after the trail had dried out into a concrete-like surface.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

Riding in the mud IS fun and I can't see and have never seen a problem with it.

All I hear is a bunch of jessies *****in' about having to negotiate a trail that isn't as smooth as the road they just left. It's off road cycling for a reason.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

marzjennings said:


> Riding in the mud IS fun and I can't see and have never seen a problem with it.
> 
> All I hear is a bunch of jessies *****in' about having to negotiate a trail that isn't as smooth as the road they just left. It's off road cycling for a reason.


The issue has been argued to death. There are times when it's OK and times when it isn't. You are pretty lucky to ride in an area where other users of the trail don't complain about the damage done to the trails by bikers riding wet trails and then the land manager shuts down mountain bike access because of it.

Do you dirt jump? Or ride pump tracks? Or freeride ride trails with carefully constructed berms, jumps, gaps and tabletops? Do you ride in public bike parks where the trails are maintained by volunteers? Or in public parks on multi-use trails that someone may be trying to push a stroller? Or on wheelchair accessible trails? All of these are situations where riding in the mud is a bad idea.

I build trails specifically designed for mud riding. I build other trails designed for other purposes that shouldn't be ridden while wet.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

Trail Ninja said:


> The issue has been argued to death. There are times when it's OK and times when it isn't. You are pretty lucky to ride in an area where other users of the trail don't complain about the damage done to the trails by bikers riding wet trails and then the land manager shuts down mountain bike access because of it.
> 
> Do you dirt jump? Or ride pump tracks? Or freeride ride trails with carefully constructed berms, jumps, gaps and tabletops? Do you ride in public bike parks where the trails are maintained by volunteers? Or in public parks on multi-use trails that someone may be trying to push a stroller? Or on wheelchair accessible trails? All of these are situations where riding in the mud is a bad idea.
> 
> I build trails specifically designed for mud riding. I build other trails designed for other purposes that shouldn't be ridden while wet.


No it hasn't been argued to death, the dictated position from IMBA and others is that riding muddy trails is bad for no other good reason that folks like their offroad trails to be smooth. And after 25 years of riding off road I've come to the staggering conclusion all we're arguing about is dirt. Just dirt and how some folks don't like to get their boots or tyres dirty and therefore everyone else should follow likewise.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Riding certain trails in the mud cuts through the drain dips that are designed to take water off the trails and prevent erosion. Then a series are cut, the cascade effect takes over and they fail one after another. You end up with a huge eroded rut then takes hours of work to repair, and keeps you from building new trail.



















I love it when those who have no sweat equity in spending years building trail come in and argue. 

Nice sig, most of us who build trails understand; pissing off those who think riding in the mud is one of them.


marzjennings said:


> It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

slocaus said:


> Riding certain trails in the mud cuts through the drain dips that are designed to take water off the trails and prevent erosion. Then a series are cut, the cascade effect takes over and they fail one after another. You end up with a huge eroded rut then takes hours of work to repair, and keeps you from building new trail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That level of erosion was bound to happen the moment the vegetation was cleared to build the trail. Regardless of whether a couple of drainage bars were built or not. And it's bogus to point the finger at riders who may have ridden in wet conditions.

And you've no idea how many hours I've put in building and repairing trails. I've started and supported trails in England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Trinidad, Morocco and now the US and after all those years of work, it's still just dirt. And mother nature will come in and cause way more trail damage than any group of riders who like to get their mud on ever will.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

marzjennings said:


> No it hasn't been argued to death, the dictated position from IMBA and others is that riding muddy trails is bad for no other good reason that folks like their offroad trails to be smooth. And after 25 years of riding off road I've come to the staggering conclusion all we're arguing about is dirt. Just dirt and how some folks don't like to get their boots or tyres dirty and therefore everyone else should follow likewise.


I don't know why you'd post an answer like that in the first place. The OP was looking for ways to keep riders off muddy trails. I assume he has a good reason. There was no reason to argue at all.

If you want people to ride in the mud on trails you built. Great. If the OP doesn't want people riding his trails in the mud, he's within his rights to try to stop them.

I have both types of trails. There are signs on the ones I don't want people riding while they're wet.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

marzjennings said:


> That level of erosion was bound to happen the moment the vegetation was cleared to build the trail. Regardless of whether a couple of drainage bars were built or not. And it's bogus to point the finger at riders who may have ridden in wet conditions.
> 
> And you've no idea how many hours I've put in building and repairing trails. I've started and supported trails in England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Trinidad, Morocco and now the US and after all those years of work, it's still just dirt. And mother nature will come in and cause way more trail damage than any group of riders who like to get their mud on ever will.


They are old rehabilitated roads, the only thing the State Parks would let us use. So you are saying that we should abandon the trails and have no place to hike, ride horses, and bicycles?

We put tons of work into them to keep them from eroding out completely. That sod is only in the winter; this is California, an arid desert nine months of the year.

When we keep all riders, bike and horse, off the wet trails, we have less repair to do, and that is a fact. We are at the point where we are building sustainable reroutes, but there are still miles of trails to maintain, since all the reroutes will take 10-15 years to complete. And that maintenance takes 80% of our time in the winter. In the summer, it is too dry to cut trail or do maintenance, so the winter mud damage takes away prime trail building time and energy.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

Trail Ninja said:


> I don't know why you'd post an answer like that in the first place. The OP was looking for ways to keep riders off muddy trails. I assume he has a good reason. There was no reason to argue at all.
> 
> If you want people to ride in the mud on trails you built. Great. If the OP doesn't want people riding his trails in the mud, he's within his rights to try to stop them.
> 
> I have both types of trails. There are signs on the ones I don't want people riding while they're wet.


These trails are on your own land then, sorry didn't realize we talking about private property where you of course get to decide who gets to ride them and when.

Otherwise hours worked on public trails have nothing to do with who get's to decide access limitations.


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## larlev (Feb 22, 2009)

Marz....is one of the guys who probably has never done an hour of trailwork, so why should he care if it's rutted or not...he's doesn't have to fix it. There are those type of people all over...selfish, and have a general lack of respect.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

marzjennings said:


> These trails are on your own land then, sorry didn't realize we talking about private property where you of course get to decide who gets to ride them and when.
> 
> Otherwise hours worked on public trails have nothing to do with who get's to decide access limitations.


All trails are on somebody's land. If it's private property as is the case with most of the trails I've built locally, then the landowner or their representative is in control of who rides when. On "public" land there will still be some sort of land manager who calls the shots.

If the trails are being abused in the eyes of the land manager, they may close them, or limit access to particular users or to particular weather conditions. One example would be CBC trail in the District of North Vancouver. Arguably one of the most famous mountain bike trails in the world. It is closed to mountain bike traffic for a couple of months every winter because it was being destroyed by people riding in the mud. The DNV has to have bylaw officers stand at the trail head and turn people away because some people don't see any harm in riding in the mud on that trail.

I'm aware of how much fun it is to ride in the mud which is why I built trails for the local middle school mountain bike club that won't hurt anything if the kids ride them in the rain and mud. I also built some freeride trails that would best be described as fragile, that won't stand up to wet weather riding. The 10 year old kids in the club get it and stay off the fragile trails when it's wet. They go and ride the hard surface trails or the mud pits.

I have more trouble with adults who see the signs and say "Who says I can't ride these trails?" and "You're not going to stop me, I'll ride where I want." These trails are mostly on private land with the landowner in agreement with my policy. A small portion is on public parkland and the parks planner is also in agreement. In both cases if the "no mud riding" policy wasn't followed, there's a very good chance the entire system would be closed. It took a lot of convincing on my part to even have the bike trails allowed in the first place.


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## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

Just a troll, egging you folks on.....


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

bankerboy said:


> Just a troll, egging you folks on.....


C'mon you gotta do better than that. At least throw in a question. 26 or 29, Presta or Schraeder, clipless or flat, ...something.

How about, if the trail was designed properly in the first place it should be able to handle wet weather riding?


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## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

Fair enough...

Downhill vs uphill - who has the right of way?

Guns - should you carry them?

Horses - Pets or meat?

My point was the pinhead posts he lived in all these different countries and has never seen damage from riding in mud even though he has done it countless times to the point of this being his preference.

Can you say *LIAR*?

He is just pushing buttons. Ignore the moron and he will wither and die.


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## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

Just curious, most of the trails by me were built by dirtbike riders back in the day. You could say they had a fair amount of sweat equity in them. Now they are banned and nothing enrages our local mtn bikers as much as seeing a dirtbike on the trails. Fair?


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## dl1030 (Sep 3, 2009)

pictures, videos, pleading with them via a forum, nothing is going to stop jerks from being jerks. Just hope karma (aka, forest ranger/public official) finds them and gives them their $130 justice. Personally i do the two strikes and your pic gets posted online method. First time i catch you i take your pic and teach you why you should stay off the trails. second time i post your pic on every local forum within 100 miles. I caught 6 people last year while i was doing trail work, plan to find more this spring. better learn what my truck looks like and rethink the 'trail closed' signs. 

i live in an area where riding in mud is bad news. two or three marks can seriously damage outslope and create craters that hold water.


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## DirtyMtnBikeHer (Jul 30, 2009)

The trails here hardly ever officially close. We just have to encourage people not to ride them. I'm just trying to come up with new ways to show people how they affect the trails. I guess I need to get out there withmy camera!


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

DirtyMtnBikeHer said:


> The trails here hardly ever officially close. We just have to encourage people not to ride them. I'm just trying to come up with new ways to show people how they affect the trails. I guess I need to get out there withmy camera!


yes please do and also take note that as before mentioned once vegetation is cleared the root structure no longer exists to hold the soil together at a level to which will ocmpletely prevent Erosion, it is dirt, is will wash away depending upon the type of granulate and clays which hold said dirt together, this picture is a perfect example of what happens with the lack of vegetation and a large spring runoff/hard rains. FYI, hard rains/runoff can even tear asphault roads up. 
For me, its fun to navigate the ruts on a technical downhill, but evidently IM one of the few that actually likes to use my bike what it was made for, riding in the mtns.


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## FrostyStruthers (Jul 10, 2010)

What about a simple sign explaining the problem riding the particular trail when it is saturated? Maybe some geological information about soil type and the erosive properties inherent to the area. Since it would be suggestive and informational, maybe the local powers that be will approve of it and maybe even fund the sign project.


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## dl1030 (Sep 3, 2009)

clearly water is the worst thing that can happen. one night of heavy rain equates to like 5 years of bike tires. shedding water is the key to lasting trails. on a proper outsloped trail, water will get off the trail fast (within a few feet). if people ride when it is wet, canals are formed from the tires that carry the water further down the trail (or keeping the water on the trail(which people then ride around)). I am not saying it isnt fun, or that your bike cant do it, i am only saying that canals are bad. anything that prevents water from shedding, or traps water on the trails is bad. wet riding is the leading cause in my experience to these conditions.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

rebel1916 said:


> Just curious, most of the trails by me were built by dirtbike riders back in the day. You could say they had a fair amount of sweat equity in them. Now they are banned and nothing enrages our local mtn bikers as much as seeing a dirtbike on the trails. Fair?


Fair? No. It's not fair when any legacy user group gets banned from their legacy trails. It happens all the time though. Sometimes it's necessary. You can't count on any user group to do what's environmentally correct and sometimes it's necessary to move certain groups away from sensitive areas. I'm not saying that's what the deal is in your area but I've seen that happen.

Strathcona Park on Vancouver Island. About 1/8 of the whole island. All the trails were made by equestrians. Hundreds of miles over a hundred years. Mountain bikers moved in and the two groups worked together with few conflicts. Now horses and bikes are banned. Only hikers are allowed.

As civilization steadily encroaches on the back country, you have to rethink the uses of some areas. The MX trails that were way out of town are now being used by little old ladies walking their dogs because they are now on the edge of town. As parks planner you realize the two groups don't mix. You can't move the little old ladies farther out. Sorry bikers, you gotta go. Not fair, but the right choice.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

FrostyStruthers said:


> What about a simple sign explaining the problem riding the particular trail when it is saturated? Maybe some geological information about soil type and the erosive properties inherent to the area. Since it would be suggestive and informational, maybe the local powers that be will approve of it and maybe even fund the sign project.


^^^ This. Better than just a sign that says "No Riding in the Rain". You'll never stop them all but you may convert a few.


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

Trail Ninja said:


> Fair? No. It's not fair when any legacy user group gets banned from their legacy trails. It happens all the time though. Sometimes it's necessary. You can't count on any user group to do what's environmentally correct and sometimes it's necessary to move certain groups away from sensitive areas. I'm not saying that's what the deal is in your area but I've seen that happen.
> 
> Strathcona Park on Vancouver Island. About 1/8 of the whole island. All the trails were made by equestrians. Hundreds of miles over a hundred years. Mountain bikers moved in and the two groups worked together with few conflicts. Now horses and bikes are banned. Only hikers are allowed.
> 
> As civilization steadily encroaches on the back country, you have to rethink the uses of some areas. The MX trails that were way out of town are now being used by little old ladies walking their dogs because they are now on the edge of town. As parks planner you realize the two groups don't mix. You can't move the little old ladies farther out. Sorry bikers, you gotta go. Not fair, but the right choice.


No, its not the right choice on any level, the solution is for people to work together with an actual rational undertanding of what is going on, from an actual real road builders expertice, how to minimize it further which agian, will not happen do to the circumstances surrounding your trail building.
Your options are,,rip up the trail and haul in proper material that will allow proper compaction with consistency and then you will need a ,Plate compacter, wacker, roller, gravel trail and or road mix, pave trail (water still runs off and erodes) , proper grading one percent minimum, retaining walls, and even then roads require constant maintenance because well they are made to be used, use in general will cause wear, and any heavy rain and or water fall can mess it all up in a complete fricken hurry, far faster tahn anyone ever dreamed of on a damn peddle bike.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Blurr said:


> For me, its fun to navigate the ruts on a technical downhill, but evidently IM one of the few that actually likes to use my bike what it was made for, riding in the mtns.


You're right. Way more "mountain bikers" prefer a nice smooth easy ride. Surveys I've done show that. If you ride technical trails with lots of rocks and roots and drops, have a close look at them and see how many people will go out of their way or way off the trail to avoid even the simplest obstacle. I noticed in your picture even you didn't ride the mud slide to the end, you were heading for the road.

If you have "easy" (see IMBA's definition of easy) trails nearby, you'll usually find them to be the most popular.


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

Trail Ninja said:


> You're right. Way more "mountain bikers" prefer a nice smooth easy ride. Surveys I've done show that. If you ride technical trails with lots of rocks and roots and drops, have a close look at them and see how many people will go out of their way or way off the trail to avoid even the simplest obstacle. I noticed in your picture even you didn't ride the mud slide to the end, you were heading for the road.


 even me  lol I suck, I just like a challange, I wish that picture showed how damn steep and butt puckering it really is. I prefer to stay on trails to be honest, Im not despite my post a guy who believes in tearing anything up, I just try to be realistic about it, you have chosen something which is very honorable, and again, we all appreciate, but just be aware than unless you do all the above and even then, it qill require you to go back and regularly maintain, the key for you is to round up as many people as possible to help, the more people interested in our sport, the more people involved, the more in the end that will help to build and maintain trails.



> If you have "easy" (see IMBA's definition of easy) trails nearby, you'll usually find them to be the most popular.


Im sure they are


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## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

*best I could find*

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj4LnfkdJDM


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## sick4surf (Feb 4, 2004)

Try posting something like this at the trailhead. You need to reach the people actually using the trail and not the folks on facebook.


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## sick4surf (Feb 4, 2004)

Here is an educational video:

http://ridgetorivers.cityofboise.org/YouTube/page61776.aspx


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## gmcttr (Oct 7, 2006)

Here's a great "story" from KYMBA....http://kymba.org/louisville/?p=105.


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## DirtyMtnBikeHer (Jul 30, 2009)

Thank you sick4surf and gmcttr! Great stuff!


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## FrostyStruthers (Jul 10, 2010)

gmcttr said:


> Here's a great "story" from KYMBA....http://kymba.org/louisville/?p=105.


Make the key parts of that story into a sign, and people would probably stay off the trail for the most part. Include the "Toolbag" part of course as it is key.

:thumbsup:


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

Trail Ninja said:


> All trails are on somebody's land.


No some trails are on everybody's land, but I guess in the land of the free, freedom to roam isn't a right you enjoy.


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## marzjennings (Jan 3, 2008)

bankerboy said:


> Fair enough...
> 
> Downhill vs uphill - who has the right of way?
> 
> ...


Never said I had not seen 'damaged' trails. I've seen trails ripped to shreds by hikers, bikers and riders and even some by 4x4s. And yet they persist, for years. Dry out and level out in the summer months, churn up in the winter and repeat.

Not a liar; truth is it's just dirt and the ONLY reason trail access is controlled is because some folks only like their trails to be flat and smooth.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

marzjennings said:


> No some trails are on everybody's land, but I guess in the land of the free, freedom to roam isn't a right you enjoy.


No, all trails are on somebody's land. "Somebody" being the person or group in control of that land. Unless you own that land, the person or group in control of it probably isn't you. Even if you do own it, there are probably regulations in place concerning what you do with it. In most developed countries those regulations will involve some sort of environmental protection. Even in the land of the free. I don't live in the land of the free. I live in the land of the polite.

I am however impressed with USA's attempts to protect their environment. Compared to most other developed nations, they do a pretty good job of trying to protect what's left of their open land and watersheds. I'm sure there are mountain bikers who feel the rules and regulations are too restrictive but I expect there are developers and miners and loggers who feel the same way.



> Not a liar; truth is it's just dirt and the ONLY reason trail access is controlled is because some folks only like their trails to be flat and smooth.


Actually most people like their trails that way. Maybe not on this forum, but in real life. I don't build a lot of mountain bike only trails. They are almost all multi-use, but of the few mountain bike specific trails I do build, the flat smooth ones are by far the most popular.


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

Trail Ninja said:


> No, all trails are on somebody's land. "Somebody" being the person or group in control of that land. Unless you own that land, the person or group in control of it probably isn't you. Even if you do own it, there are probably regulations in place concerning what you do with it. In most developed countries those regulations will involve some sort of environmental protection. Even in the land of the free. I don't live in the land of the free. I live in the land of the polite.


 He is refering to America and Public land, in America all people own public land, something that is forgotten quickly in our downroll spire to a totalitarian regime.



> I am however impressed with USA's attempts to protect their environment. Compared to most other developed nations, they do a pretty good job of trying to protect what's left of their open land and watersheds.


 Yes, yes I am very impressed at the government completely shutting the owners off of their land for any lame excuse possible. Dare I ask what the "erosion" shall be after a 6 foot pile of snow melts on the east coast?



> Actually most people like their trails that way. Maybe not on this forum, but in real life. I don't build a lot of mountain bike only trails. They are almost all multi-use, but of the few mountain bike specific trails I do build, the flat smooth ones are by far the most popular.


 everyone has a right to enjoy their own prefered method, fortunatly in America the Minority is protected via the constitution as we are not a Democracy, rather a Republic, wait, wait a minute... but somehow that majority that fails to understand the term "mountain bike" who seemingly would be better off simply putting knobbies on their road bike and posing in front of a sporting goods outlet instead. Now would htis change should they discover further abilities on more challenging trails? We may never know, thsoe trails are becoming obsolete.


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## ct_racer (Feb 23, 2010)

rail gauge activated sentry gun?


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## sick4surf (Feb 4, 2004)

This is a meter that some folks use at their trailhead. The idea is that trail users can update the trail conditions on their own. However, it can be abused.


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## hoolie (Sep 17, 2010)

*Trail ninja right about old ladies not budging*

Tamarancho has 200 riders on weekends, but 9 miles further not 20 riders. I hate to rain on your parade but in Mt bike hostile areas like Marin all riders get funneled into small # of trails-they get trashed. Guys like me riding for 30 years are sick of closures so I ride where and when I want. Muddy trails in the dark is way safer than cellphone addicted drivers on the street. If youlive in bike tourism towns thank your lucky stars and save your trails. As for me, I ride mud. Truly am sorry you don't like my diviots.


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

trail/road saturation/mud is an old problem. around my neck of the woods the ground literally turns to jello in spring. in a city of several million people it's hard to keep people off the trails. to solve the problem i've developed a sub grade material that is cost effective that stabilizes and drains the ground. on the plus side it is also recycled. i'll be running a offical trial this spring repairing a 500m section of trail that will be studied to see how effective this method is.


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