# Belt driven G-boxx (Nicolai)



## exvitermini (Aug 11, 2006)

havent seen this posted or anything on it...

so does anyone know anything?


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## mzungo (Sep 14, 2004)

*Interesting*

Now that looks mighty interesting:thumbsup:


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## paintballeerXC (Jun 9, 2005)

hhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm, moto invasion ???


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## 08nwsula (Oct 19, 2005)

that's one way to save some weight. (I would imagine)


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## davec113 (May 31, 2006)

will it still work in muddy conditions?


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## alinghi12 (Jun 24, 2006)

never seen that before


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## Pistol2Ne (Apr 2, 2006)

davec113 said:


> will it still work in muddy conditions?


yeah because the belt has noches in it kinda like a chain same concept but not all the way through it


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## boone (Aug 29, 2004)

Interesting?
Wonder if this is gonna be the old m-pires replacement 

Could be cool!


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## Raptordude (Mar 30, 2004)

Pistol2Ne said:


> yeah because the belt has noches in it kinda like a chain same concept but not all the way through it


Yeah but...

What if the mud/water causes slippage?
What if the mud gets caked on and causes it to skip or no grip?
How durable is the band?

This design raises a lot of questions.


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## mzungo (Sep 14, 2004)

*Works on a Harley*

I have had motor bikes with belts...wonderfully quiet and clean...

Its great to see so much innovation coming into cycles at last.


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## crank1979 (Feb 3, 2006)

mzungo said:


> I have had motor bikes with belts...wonderfully quiet and clean...
> 
> Its great to see so much innovation coming into cycles at last.


On a Harley hey. I don't see that as a positive recommendation! :madman:


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## Ace1 (Jun 14, 2004)

As long as it won't perish with sunlight or hot/cold, great!

Only for single pivot frames though right?


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## konut (Mar 25, 2006)

seen it last year in mbuk on a g-spot,only problem was they had to run it on a roholf hub.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Belts hate dirt. Belts are less efficient transferring power than chains - not an issue on a street moto, but a BIG deal to a pair of legs. It's a novel, but certainly not a new idea, and it will go away like all previous belt drive attempts. It's damn hard to beat a chain, it lives at the top of the food chain for efficiency.


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## Ace1 (Jun 14, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> pun, anyone?


Ouch!

Less efficient eh? Are you sure?


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## M1_joel (Mar 9, 2004)

ive used Gates Polychain belts on my Procharged caramo. mine was 50mm wide but still. those belts are tough and will never wear out on a bicycle. the belts are cogged and have as good or better engagement than a chain.


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## hardway (Jun 3, 2006)

dirt bikes use chains, not belts, and I'm sure there's a good reason.


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## meatpuppet (Apr 18, 2007)

Unless there is an enclosure system they are not going to be the right drive system for off road conditions. The belt acts like all belts, a great conveyor of foreign bodies into the junction between belt and pulley. This happens on road bikes (motorcycles) as stones often get thrown into the pulleys and cause the belt to break-imagine the amount of vegetation that would get pulled into it !!

Belts do maintain efficiency throughout the life span, chains need maintenance to keep efficiencies high-remember the surfaces of the chain are in constant contact and hence friction- touch a motorcycle chain after a high speed run and its warm (which is why you should always lube after riding and not before).


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Raptordude said:


> Yeah but...
> 
> What if the mud/water causes slippage?
> What if the mud gets caked on and causes it to skip or no grip?
> ...


Gates has been manufacturing automotive belts for nearly a century, I'm pretty sure they're durable enough for a bike


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

mzungo said:


> I have had motor bikes with belts...wonderfully quiet and clean...
> 
> Its great to see so much innovation coming into cycles at last.


Actually Jericho Bikes made a belt drive SS a few years ago:


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## j5ive (Sep 24, 2005)

We had a belt driven dragster here made by redline, I could get it to slip in the car park. Bad idea.


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## -C- (Oct 26, 2006)

hardway said:


> dirt bikes use chains, not belts, and I'm sure there's a good reason.


Why use the internet when a library does the same job? Why do machines build cars rather than people?

Its called progression. If people don't try these ideas, nothing would ever evolve in this industry.


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## meatpuppet (Apr 18, 2007)

-C- said:


> Why use the internet when a library does the same job? Why do machines build cars rather than people?
> 
> Its called progression. If people don't try these ideas, nothing would ever evolve in this industry.


Hardly the same thing. Belts have been around for a long time, as have chains, drive shafts and hydraulics. There have been some evolutions in belt construction, but that applies to all the other forms of drive.

The thing to ask is what advantages does a belt have over a chain, a shaft over a belt, or hydraulics over a chain.

Belt.
Smooth
Quiet
Low maintenance
No reduction in performance during lifetime.
More difficult to construct a simple gear system as it needs either a fixed gearbox or something like Hondas variable drive system, but can be heavy.
Can be damaged by stones (can snap)
Impossible to repair without having a new belt.

Chain
Needs constant maintenance 
More efficient when maintained correctly.
Reasonably quiet and smooth if correctly lubricated.
Difficult to damage.
Can be repaired easily.
Well established gear system that is robust and light.

Concluding : A belt reduces maintenance, it can be damaged more easily off road, it requires a more complex gear system, it is difficult to repair while out on the trail.
A chain is well proven and is equal to a belt if it is maintained correctly, the gear system is already in place, it is less easy to damage and can be repaired in the field.

Make a belt less liable to damage and sort out the gearing problem and it might be an advantage. It certainly makes sense for a commuter style bike that is used on road, but is not so easy to integrate into a multi geared lightweight roadbike or an off road cycle.

A chain still provides the most sensible approach for general use, but it requires constant maintenance to keep it in good condition and is less useful for commuter bikes with fewer gears, where cleanliness and ease of use are more important than weight considerations.


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## Mongiafer (May 29, 2005)

As long as the belt have a good tensioner is going to work. 1000hp+ engines are live proof that belts are preety strong. How mouch power can two human legs put on a belt compared to an engine...... nothing
But the good thing about Regular chains is tht you not need that much tension to kkep it working... In belts a high tension is mandatory to keep the without sliping.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> what happens when a rock goes under the belt and into the teeth sh!t..?
> 
> death for all.


Of course there are probably hundreds of methods to stop that from happening, but here is one obvious one.

Encase it.

:thumbsup:


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## Locoman (Jan 12, 2004)

All the belts I've seen applied to bicycles look fairly wide. (maybe for strength?)
Just more surface area to get crap stuck (like the rock you mentioned).

Enclosing the drivetrain would be an answer but that has its own set of issues..
___________
And would they only work for SS or gear boxes??


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## Locoman (Jan 12, 2004)

29Colossus said:


> Of course there are probably hundreds of methods to stop that from happening, but here is one obvious one.
> 
> Encase it.
> 
> :thumbsup:


Belt drives and encased drivetrains (on bicycles) have been around some time, and someone will always reinvent them. But they'll only be around as curiosity.

Another belt disadvantage: You can't shorten a belt.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Locoman said:


> Belt drives and encased drivetrains (on bicycles) have been around some time, and someone will always reinvent them. But they'll only be around as curiosity.


If you say so.



> Another belt disadvantage: You can't shorten a belt.


Sure you can. With a tensioner.

But why am I even bothering? You will just discount anything I have to say on the issue while adhering to existing modern technology as your excuse crutch. All for spite I guess. Doesn't make much sense to me.


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## Locoman (Jan 12, 2004)

Issues: Looks like its only for SS or bikes w/ gear boxes. The belt is wide, w/ a large surface area (more room to get contaminants). Encasing the belt is more weight, more complication, more to break.

Belts can't be shortened, so does this mean you'd need sliding dropouts, ENO type hubs or eccentric BBs?

I'm sure a great bike can be designed around a belt drive, but its going to need proprietary parts that won't be as easy to replace as the standardized aftermarket parts currently available... its going to have a complicated design.



.


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## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

29Colossus said:


> ....I don't have to compare it to anything to see that. Multiple metal cogs? That is hardly compact....


Shaft drive is the only other alternative to compare that comes to mind.


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## fool-o (Apr 11, 2007)

would a belt fall off more or less than a chain.......... if that makes any sense


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

fool-o said:


> would a belt fall off more or less than a chain.......... if that makes any sense


Just like a chain set-up, if you have it set-up correctly it should never "fall off".


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## Locoman (Jan 12, 2004)

The guy who help develop the beltdrive for Harley Davidson has a beltdrive system, CycleDrive, that you can buy as an aftermarket product for your bicycle. Its compatible with Shimano, Sturmey Archer, & SRAM internal gear hubs

There's only one small caveat...
"*The system is not recommended for Mountain bikes or other situations where conditions could be very muddy*. Otherwise, it's suitable for any kind of bicycle..." _link_

BWWaaa! HHHhhhaaa! Haaaaaaaa! :lol: :lol: :lol: :blush:

http://www.cycledrive.com


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Locoman said:


> The guy who help develop the beltdrive for Harley Davidson has a beltdrive system, CycleDrive, that you can buy as an aftermarket product for your bicycle. Its compatible with Shimano, Sturmey Archer, & SRAM internal gear hubs
> 
> There's only one small caveat...
> "*The system is not recommended for Mountain bikes or other situations where conditions could be very muddy*. Otherwise, it's suitable for any kind of bicycle..." _link_
> ...


Looks like a nice system that could be modified and improved as time goes by to work well with bikes that actually do get very muddy.

Lighter. Longer lasting. No maintenance.

Good attributes.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> After this thread, I've decided that I'm going to put rocket engines on my bicycle.


Methane is the future!


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## xy9ine (Feb 2, 2005)

(trying to look past the willie wagging going on) i'm still unconvinced of the superiority of a belt drive system as applied to mountain bikes, but nicolai is smart people, so i'm assuming some validity to trying out such a system. the lower weight benefit seems to be negated by the need for enclosures, wider pulleys, etc. i can see it being used within the g-boxx however (which currently uses an internal chain from the crank to planetary hub). lack of length adjustability is another significant detractor (think of bike shops having to carry a range of lengths). i'd think if they offered substantial benefits to chains we'd at least see them in motogp - probably the most technologically advanced 2 wheeled contrivances (that don't have the issue of dirt contamination to deal with). i'm all about forward thinking, but i don't see the negatives outweighing the positives right now. lets hear some constructive input.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Here is your Power Transmission section of the Gates site. It has synchronous belts and belt metals. Belt pulleys and sprockets of all kinds that are made of metal are called, "Metals". That is what the manufacturers call them. I didn't just make it up for the fun of it. In this case, the pulleys required are called, "Synchronous Metals".

http://www.gates.com/index.cfm?location_id=534

This next page... that can be found linked right off the last page I have referenced explains the different kinds of Synchronous belts. Carbon synchronous belts have different properties from other belts and are used in different applications than the standard PG belts for instance. One attribute that can make a belt attractive in a bike application might be the belts ability to flex. One can begin to educate themselves about those attributes by reading here.

http://www.gates.com/index.cfm?location_id=557

Here is a simple overview in PDF form of the Gates Synchronous belts for people who would like to educate themselves further. It is also linked from the same page.

http://www.gates.com/file_display_c...es/documents_module&file=syncBeltOverview.pdf

Here is direct link... again.. from the same page that gives a nice overview of the Metals that are available from Gates. Between pulleys and sheaves and sprockets, this page shows a good example of the Synchronous pulley used with the belt. It also shows bushings and other items that could be used in the design/ideas of a system on a bike. It also shows other metals that are available that are good for comparison sake when educating one's self on the system and other possible systems and configurations.

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=4960&location_id=4770

Here is an overview of possible applications for belt systems. It can be a good overview for people brainstorming or just wanting to educate themselves further.

http://www.gates.com/index.cfm?location_id=3343

The bottom line is that there is a lot of information that one can read about Synchronous metals and belts on the manufacturers site. The information is important for people that are interested in designing or trying out a Synchronous belt drive on their own, or just trying to understand what kind of items are used in such a system that might enlighten them to the validity of the system, or the lack of validity. You might not think so, but in MY EXPERIENCE with belt drive bikes, the information has proved valuable AND educational. More information can be gleaned from the website as well. Gear ratios can be determined and part numbers supplied on the Gated charts that are also on the site that help in selecting the correct size gears for the ratio one is looking for as well as ordering the correct parts.


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## Ace1 (Jun 14, 2004)

I do actually see the potential of belt drives in conjunction with gearboxes at some point in the future. It certainly won't be affordable for the average bike rider at first, but given time...


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## RobW (Jan 18, 2004)

1) I'd love to run a belt drive on my Rohloff'd hardtail

2) The belts would have to have a link to be used on most bikes, therfore, available in different lengths.

3) IME, toothed drive belts don't slip. They may grenade, but they don't slip.


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## coma13 (Sep 3, 2005)

i knew there was a good thread buried in here somewhere...

*PLAY NICE*


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

coma13 said:


> i knew there was a good thread buried in here somewhere...
> 
> *PLAY NICE*


Keep digging cuz' you didn't find it, but now the thread *is* completely useless. :nono:


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> this thread lost weight! now my post count dropped, that means im stupider..


I agree. 

But really... that was wimpy. We had a nice and fun epic going and it is now just a ride on the golf course path. Par for the course I guess.

Ohh well... it is the way of America and Americans. Conform and sheeple until you have NO opinion on anything.

I guess I'll go hit a bucket of balls before my afternoon ride on my belt-driven mountainbike.

:thumbsup:


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## Huck Banzai (May 8, 2005)

Deleting messages is pretty feeble; Whomever is responsible is guilty of censorship.

The man is an ass and demonstrated it - the solution is to purge his valid opposition and edit his messages to clean up the insults and baseless commentary?

Acenine and unacceptable in addition to childish.

This goes a long way toward devaluing and discrediting MTBR as a whole; a good push towards becoming Pinkbike.


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