# Why do so many gravity bikes come specced with SRAM? Does XT/XTR suck for gravity?



## Evan55 (Jul 23, 2009)

Im shopping for my first gravity oriented bike, and I notice that universally (other than an occasional high end Saint equipped bike) the bikes are equipped with SRAM. 

Does SRAM perform better in Freeride and DH, or is it just cheaper or marketed to that sector better?
And on the flip side, does Shimano XT and SLX perform well on gravity runs? 

Reason I ask is that I really dont like SRAMs shifters, so Id like to use Shimano and need to know whether I can do XT or should go with Saint.

thanks.


----------



## slothoncanvas (Mar 6, 2007)

XT is a relatively strong setup. Saint is stronger, obviously but unless you're a really big dude or are really hard on your stuff, XT is good. Even SLX are supposed to be stiff and strong as far as I know, but I've not personally ridden or heard anything directly from DH/FR dudes on those.

I think it's probably because SRAM is better quality for the dollar. At least that's what it seems like to me anyway, from the things I've tried and the things I've seen come through the shop. I personally have SRAM on all my bikes and especially since putting XO on 2 of my bikes, (even having tried XT and XTR), I'll never even think about going back to Shimano. Unless it were like, either given to me or it was a deal *way* too good to pass up.

Not trying to start a Shimano VS SRAM debate. Which will undoubtedly happen now. The high level Shimano stuff is nice. And the Saint stuff is nice. I just absolute love XO.


----------



## oldskoolbiker (Jun 2, 2005)

In my experience Shimano Stuff works great when it's clean, and lubed, but doesn't work so well when it's covered in mud. 

I like SRAM on my DH bike because it continues to work even when covered in the worst slop.

Also as far as shifting goes, the two thumb shifters on SRAM are the way to go. Think about it, you can keep your index finger at the ready on your brake, and shift with your thumbs. Shimano copied this in their latest shifters (except the Shimano shifters also work the old way too)


----------



## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

when the X-9's first came out they just lasted longer and had stronger springs. I would replace my XT, XTR or deores every 2to 3 months...My X-9's last and last unless I beat them on rocks...currently have one that is 2 years old. I love the shifting on them too. what don't you like about the shifters>???

Personally I don't like how the saint derailers last...they seem to wear out fast and not shift properly with age.


----------



## toowacky (May 24, 2005)

oldskoolbiker said:


> Also as far as shifting goes, the two thumb shifters on SRAM are the way to go. Think about it, you can keep your index finger at the ready on your brake, and shift with your thumbs.


Agreed. Hands down SRAM thumb shifting is better for gravity applications, IMO.


----------



## b4 stealth (Sep 9, 2007)

+1 to everything said above. I also think the positive Ka-Chunk that comes along with a Sram shift is more appealing to the DH/FR crowd than the super smooth did-I-shift kinda feeling you get with Shimano IME. Thats my main reason for running sram, it feels more like a stick shift and less like a paddle shift. Cathartic almost.


----------



## Iceman2058 (Mar 1, 2007)

It's like, 'cause, dude, like, SRAM, like ROCKS, dude. 

Like.

Duh.


----------



## brillantesdv (Oct 24, 2007)

kinda hard to have a XT or XTR grupo with out a 83mm crankset. which is why youll either see Saint group, or SRAM

other than that, i ran an old XT derauiler and shifter for the longest time...no issues. i swiched to the new X.7's just cause i like the crisp shifting and thumb shifters.


----------



## Nagaredama (Aug 2, 2004)

XT and XTR doesn't come in short cage and Saint is super $$, thus the high amount of Sram spec'd in the DH world.


----------



## zzsean (Nov 3, 2004)

I have a Shimano 105 short cage rear derailleur on my DH bike and it has been running strong for over two years. I just recently upgraded my rear cassette to a dura-ace road cassette for no other reason than it was a nicer version of the shimano road cassette I had on previously and I thought my new 951 deserved a little hidden bling.

My Saint Trigger needs more love and attention in the cable and housing area than my SRAM x.0 on my trail bike, but my DH bike sees way more adverse condition riding than my Trail Bike does.

(I probably did about 50-60 DH days in 2009 to get a sense of usage).


----------



## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

slothoncanvas said:


> Saint is stronger, obviously but unless you're a really big dude XT is good.


How does your weight affect the derailleur and shifter longevity? (at least in any significant way)


----------



## brillantesdv (Oct 24, 2007)

Gemini2k05 said:


> How does your weight affect the derailleur and shifter longevity? (at least in any significant way)


fatter thumbs cause more wear on the your shift levers...duh


----------



## Fix the Spade (Aug 4, 2008)

Gemini2k05 said:


> How does your weight affect the derailleur and shifter longevity? (at least in any significant way)


You'll know when you fall on it.


----------



## jdc5r (Feb 15, 2008)

found the biggest issue is the spring tension on the derailleurs. Shimanos are weak. Saint is strong for sure but the xt xtr is too weak for proper gravity things you guys would be riding.

The non shadow xtr derailleur used to self shift on me after a slightly bumpy section *correct chain length*.


----------



## The_Pitbull (Nov 13, 2008)

Nagaredama said:


> XT and XTR doesn't come in short cage and Saint is super $$, thus the high amount of Sram spec'd in the DH world.


this and until the shadow style came out, shimano rears could rock forward and hit the underside of chainstays making an annoying noise


----------



## Dalis12 (Jan 15, 2008)

I run a XT Shadow. its been working great for me, though I have never run a SRAM back there and would be curious to. maybe the next time I thrash this one on a rock I'll pout some X9 stuff on there and compare.


----------



## Destin (Jan 2, 2009)

I had a sram x-5 rd with x0 twist grips on my last bike, and it completley blew my old xt setup that I had before it out of the water. I had it for 2 and a half years, and only replaced the cable once, and NEVER adjusted the rear derailleur after the day I installed it. It shifted like clockwork no matter how much mud was on it. When I needed a gear, it got it for me EVERY time. I cant remember ever being upset with it once, and it was only x-5. I cant even imagine what x0 feels like!!!

Im now back on an xt RD with sram attack grip shifters, and the setup is good, but not nearly as consistant as the x-5 was. I only went back to shimano because I got a smoking deal on a salsa dos niner, but had to sell my old bike to pay for it. Im planning on upgrading to an X0 rd and twist grips asap


----------



## DeadlyStryker (Feb 12, 2005)

You be the judge. Just noticed the horrible image quality, my apologies. (Blame YouTube!)


----------



## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

DeadlyStryker said:


> You be the judge. Just noticed the horrible image quality, my apologies. (Blame YouTube!)


basically there is why you run sram


----------



## FullMonty (Nov 3, 2008)

well, the shadow RD's eliminate the up and down bobbing, plus they're tucked away from rocks and such.


----------



## nmpearson (Aug 13, 2007)

i only use sram. whenever i ride a bike with shimano, i have to retune the derailleur to make it dead on. Sram, i just set it and forget it. just awesome


----------



## chinkerjuarez (Apr 23, 2007)

I only use Shimano as I don't like the thumb actuation (simply preference) of the SRAM and the stupid cheap plastic inserts don't last for the adjustment screws. I run XT shadows with Saint pods and they have been great on both my Socom and my Bottlerocket. Was running X9 on my Bottlerocket and left it as it was stock and ran them for a year. Went to change my cassette and chain and went to adjust the rear derailleur and there was not an adjustment screw for the low adjustment, because of the issue stated above. So I yanked it off and never turned back. I've never had any issues with my Shimano set ups and have been running them for years.


----------



## slothoncanvas (Mar 6, 2007)

Gemini2k05 said:


> How does your weight affect the derailleur and shifter longevity? (at least in any significant way)


My bad, should have specified... I was thinking entire groupo. Specifically, I was talking about the XT cranks when I was talking about weight and abuse tolerances.


----------



## Ithnu (Feb 16, 2007)

Iceman2058 said:


> It's like, 'cause, dude, like, SRAM, like ROCKS, dude.
> 
> Like.
> 
> Duh.


Best post here.


----------



## Evan55 (Jul 23, 2009)

thanks for the feedback and opinions, its now clear as mud 

it sounds like XT should do the job about as good as (or almost as good as SRAM), but the SRAM stuff is lower maintanence. I think I can deal with that.



oldskoolbiker said:


> Also as far as shifting goes, the two thumb shifters on SRAM are the way to go. Think about it, you can keep your index finger at the ready on your brake, and shift with your thumbs. Shimano copied this in their latest shifters (except the Shimano shifters also work the old way too)


the original old OLD Rapidfire shifters were actually 2 thumb levers. 
My first MTB when I was 12 was the first year that RapidFire+ came out with the thumb and trigger finger design, which I loved and have been riding it ever since. The index finger on brake thing has never been an issue (in fact never even thought of it until now) since while braking you will be slowing down and arent ever going to need to shift up. Rapidrise would in fact suck for that reason.
Its purely a personal thing, but I demoed the SRAM shifters and really didnt like them.


----------



## zzsean (Nov 3, 2004)

Evan55 said:


> thanks for the feedback and opinions, its now clear as mud
> 
> it sounds like XT should do the job about as good as (or almost as good as SRAM), but the SRAM stuff is lower maintanence. I think I can deal with that.
> 
> ...


I shift when braking. Not often, but enough that it would suck not to be able to do it. Most commonly it is when I come in hot to a section and there is a significant speed change straight after the section. Typically I am downshifting for a climb immediately after the section but I have shifted while braking on my DH bike as well for a fast section straight after a heavy braking section - probably because I forgot the upcoming section and didn't change early enough).


----------



## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

Fix the Spade said:


> You'll know when you fall on it.


lolol. Have you ever broken a derailler? 99.99% of the time, you break it smashing it into rocks and roots while riding, or it gets pushed into the spokes. .01% of the time, you break it falling on it. Its a super light weight piece of metal riveted together by tiny aluminum rivets. Your bikes weight/momentum alone in a fall is more then enough to completely crush it (should you hit it in such a manner as would cause a break) add a fairly light 150 lb rider on there and if your derailler gets hit, its going to die. The extra 100 lbs going to a 250 lb rider won't make the slightest difference.

edit: I'm a pretty tried and true sram x9 guy, but my new bike came with saint so I'm running it to see how I like it. So far, I like it better, but we'll see how it holds up over time. One thing I really like, is that where my sram deraillers stuck out pretty far from the back of my bike, the saint der sits under the axle and my frame actually sticks further out then my derailler now. Pretty rad.


----------



## climbingbubba (Jan 10, 2007)

Just to clear it up. The XT and Saint and probably others shift both ways. You can shift with your thumb or finger so the arguement of taking your finger of the brake doesn't hold up. 

The other issue i had was the shifter indicators which i hate. It made it so you couldn't run your brakes inboard from the shifters. The saints don't have them and i found out the XT and possibly others are removable now with a plate that covers where they were.

I have been a SRAM guy for my entire biking career but decided i wanted to try shimano this time. I have ruined a sram x9 rear der every year from bashing it on a rock and bending it inward so you can't shift into the hardest 2 gears. Im sure it would have wrecked any rear der but for the reason I wanted to try the new shimano XT shadow der. It has crazy clearance.

it will be interesting to see how it works out though.


----------



## SteveUK (Apr 16, 2006)

> Im shopping for my first gravity oriented bike, and I notice that universally (other than an occasional high end Saint equipped bike) the bikes are equipped with SRAM.


I would imagine that the glut of bikes fitted with SRAM/Avid/Truvativ components is closer related to cash than quality/suitability.


----------



## slothoncanvas (Mar 6, 2007)

DeadlyStryker said:


> You be the judge. Just noticed the horrible image quality, my apologies. (Blame YouTube!)


That's really interesting. Thanks for doing/posting that.


----------



## pajak (May 20, 2009)

sram probably gives better oem pricing to makers since that is a one stop shop (fork/shifting/braking/drivetrain) they can go to sram and get all of that stuff or use shimano and have to then go to fox and others. unless you are a giant like giant or spesh and you can do whatever you want since they buy so much. it comes down to trying to get good stuff and keep the prices down so you kiddies can go out and ride more.


----------



## euroford (Sep 10, 2006)

i rock sram stuff cuz its awesome.


----------



## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> basically there is why you run sram


Until you nick it on a rock? They both make good stuff, but overall I'd said Shimano is better for DH, SRAM can't seem to take any hits. And I don't know if I buy the whole "less motion is better" theory. I'd have to think about it some more though, lots of factors to take into account. The not moving probably is related to their inability to take hits though. Hmmm.


----------



## ppp2520 (Jan 28, 2008)

SRAM made in Taiwan
SHIMANO SAINT made in Japan


----------



## b4 stealth (Sep 9, 2007)

ppp2520 said:


> SRAM made in Taiwan
> SHIMANO SAINT made in Japan


But we have already established that the two products are so equal it comes down to rider preference, either one will get the job done very well, so why does the country of origin matter?


----------



## Matt 891 (Apr 23, 2007)

ppp2520 said:


> SRAM made in Taiwan
> SHIMANO SAINT made in Japan


umm, dude, like, totally almost everything is like, made in taiwan, bro.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I've broken SRAM derailers, but I'm still trying hard to break this:


----------



## slothoncanvas (Mar 6, 2007)

Are most of the people saying SRAM stuff can't take hits saying this based on X9 and down? I know that they're def not cheap, but XO stuff in my and most of the guys' I ride with's experience is really strong. Out of control strong for how light they are, I'd say. Def stronger than X9s. Plus the fact that almost everything on the XOs are replaceable, so if something does break, no biggie...


----------



## 4JawChuck (Dec 1, 2008)

I think Jayem's pictures speaks a thousand words, I've used SRAM stuff for years and only have X9 and X0 stuff on my bikes (I've yet to break anything) but after seeing that photo I may just toss some cash for some Saints.

You should send that photo to Shimano Jayem, they might use it in an Ad and send you some shwag.:thumbsup:


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

4JawChuck said:


> I think Jayem's pictures speaks a thousand words, I've used SRAM stuff for years and only have X9 and X0 stuff on my bikes (I've yet to break anything) but after seeing that photo I may just toss some cash for some Saints.
> 
> You should send that photo to Shimano Jayem, they might use it in an Ad and send you some shwag.:thumbsup:


The crazy part is how old the pic is. It was towards the end of last summer I think.


----------



## Juicy (Feb 11, 2006)

Used to run shimano XTR RD on my old bike and always had to re-tune the damn thing every 2 weeks. Plenty of problems with ghost shifts on the trails and its just really annoying how I couldn't enjoy the ride cause it kept shifting when I didn't want it to.

XOs came with my then new bike, 3 years ago. NEVER ever had to touch the RD except during servicing to change out cables or total strip down. 
I think the SHimanos are less robust. Haven't tried the Shadow series but I hope they're alot better cause I'd like to try the Saints.


----------



## Dalis12 (Jan 15, 2008)

Juicy said:


> . Haven't tried the Shadow series but I hope they're alot better cause I'd like to try the Saints.


I have a shadow an XT Shadow on my ride currently and have yet to need to make an adjustment... no ghost shifting or anything like that. its pretty tough to, i have definately smacked it on some rocks and it is still going strong. I imagine if my XT can preform this well the saint is just that much better


----------



## DeadlyStryker (Feb 12, 2005)

Jayem said:


> I've broken SRAM derailers, but I'm still trying hard to break this:


What is the doohickey on the back of that thing? Just to fix cable routing problems?


----------



## zzsean (Nov 3, 2004)

Shimano 105 Short Cage after a couple of seasons on my DH bikes. Replaced it this winter with a new one. This one will go over to my hard tail.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

DeadlyStryker said:


> What is the doohickey on the back of that thing? Just to fix cable routing problems?


Yes, the cable on that particular bike doesn't really "loop" well, and this allows me to not have to run a "loop" at the end, but the newer "shadow" style derailers completely fix this.

Anyways, I just thought the picture was funny, because it's the opposite philosophy as SRAM. Shimano actually dedicated a while back to making DH/FR components, but of course they weighed more. For many people, the fact that they weighed more was just too much to deal with, and buying stuff every few months is what many people do. Those lightweight XO and X9 derailers are fragile by comparission. Yes, if you don't hit anything they'll hold up for a while, but they are still XC components (and other people run XTR on downhill bikes anyway). At least now with Shimano you get a few levels to choose from, full on Saint, lighter but still more durable SLX, and so on. The Saint stuff started the heavier return spring, and now on the Shadow stuff it is pretty standard, but the 1:1.2 actuation of SRAM is better than the 1:1.7-8 actuation of Shimano (1:2 and 1:1 isn't really accurate), but the reason for this was the ultra-sloppy grip-shifters back in the day, and that actuation was simply needed to keep them within decent shifting tolerances. You can have better precision parts though that somewhat makes up for it.


----------



## mtnbiker0755 (Oct 20, 2004)

+1 For SRAM. Shimano does make a good product, but I have had an X0 on my trail bike for well over 600 miles. Granted, about half of those miles were on smooth terrain/climbing, but I tend to treat it like a mini-DH bike when going down. That video is interesting, as well. I also use X9 on my DH bike and they are bomb proof for their weight/price...


----------



## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

ppp2520 said:


> SRAM made in Taiwan
> SHIMANO SAINT made in Japan


sooo.......Taiwan/japan just the same


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> sooo.......Taiwan/japan the same


:nono: :nono: :nono:


----------



## ilostmypassword (Dec 9, 2006)

Both change gears well. fit them. go ride. the end....


----------



## JMUSuperman (Jun 14, 2008)

My only disappointment with switching to SRAM has been the tinker factor. I kind of miss the days of trial and error getting the Shimano stuff to shift "just right."


----------



## FullMonty (Nov 3, 2008)

I've had both, and I probably prefer the shimano shadow stuff myself. I like the lighter action on the shifters as opposed to the "KA-CHUNK" of a SRAM shifter.

I haven't noticed that my deore/xt shimano setup requires any more maintenance than my x7/x9 setup. I mean, the night before a ride I stick my bike in the stand to give it a quick check and lube anyway, so what's 30 seconds to run through the gears and tweak the barrel adjuster if needed?

I suppose over time the shimano stuff will be more prone to cable contamination due to the pull ratio.

Anyway, they're both good stuff, IMO.


----------



## ScottSaxer (Jul 16, 2007)

Shimano all the way. sram stuff just gets ruined on rocks. If you have to play with your Rder every ride then you need to learn how to set up a Rder. The only thing you should ever have to adjust is cable tension.


----------



## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Jayem said:


> I've broken SRAM derailers, but I'm still trying hard to break this:


Wow Saint derailleur..modern piece of MTB'ing equipment. Still requires the use of an aftermarket part (Avid...SRAM) to work correctly. LOL 

And by the way, you look like a hack beating on your derailleur that way. :skep:


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Khemical said:


> And by the way, you look like a hack beating on your derailleur that way. :skep:


Well, it sure beats the times on South Mountain where a rock-sideswipe would simply break the derailer clean off. Going back up the trail, you couldn't even find the remnants much of the time. Back in the day I use to hit up the weekend-winter shuttles, but living 2hrs away it was hard to get on the first shuttle. No problem, usually one or a few people would wreck their bikes, making room for me to get some runs in. I guess if you don't ride in a rocky area, you don't know what I'm talking about, but it's always funny to see the guys that swear up and down to us that they ride "rocky stuff", just to see them finally ride off the mountain hella pissed that we took them down a "rocky" trail, like Holbert or the Goat Camp ride. Then there are the new technical trails we have in my city, some of the turns are so tight (at slow speed) that you do hear some scraping, but it's nice to know it's not really damaging anything. I guess some people just ride more challenging terrain. These are shots from GC, which is more of an "XC" ride though.

So I guess the best reply is: "at least I have a derailer".


----------



## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

Jayem said:


> Well, it sure beats the times on South Mountain where a rock-sideswipe would simply break the derailer clean off. Going back up the trail, you couldn't even find the remnants much of the time. Back in the day I use to hit up the weekend-winter shuttles, but living 2hrs away it was hard to get on the first shuttle. No problem, usually one or a few people would wreck their bikes, making room for me to get some runs in. I guess if you don't ride in a rocky area, you don't know what I'm talking about, but it's always funny to see the guys that swear up and down to us that they ride "rocky stuff", just to see them finally ride off the mountain hella pissed that we took them down a "rocky" trail, like Holbert or the Goat Camp ride. Then there are the new technical trails we have in my city, some of the turns are so tight (at slow speed) that you do hear some scraping, but it's nice to know it's not really damaging anything. I guess some people just ride more challenging terrain. These are shots from GC, which is more of an "XC" ride though.
> 
> So I guess the best reply is: "at least I have a derailer".


Ok, you win this round, or should I say the rocks win this round?


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Khemical said:


> Ok, you win this round, or should I say the rocks win this round?


Yeah, and I'm just saying the "at least I have a derailer" in the sense that not everyone has the same set of standards, just that I've broken enough over the years to know that my current streak is not just chance. Another way to say it is, "I'm just happy to have a derailer". On the negative side, not everyone wants a heavy derailer, no matter how well it works or how strong it is. The design is superior in functionality respects, but if you can get away with something lighter for much of the time, there isn't much reason to lug around extra weight. I just see a difference in philosophy in terms of "discipline-specific" components. Eventually SRAM will be on board as well, or internal gear hubs will rule the day.

The rocks always win eventually.


----------

