# who knows stuff about paint?



## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

So I want to buy paint and spraypaint my frame/fork/whatever.

Now I knew I could get Duponts lineup of products fairly easy so I checked out their site and its a total ****ing jungle!

But somehow I noticed they have these nice candys/metallics/pearls and stuff and chromalusion, so I want to use those. However I found out when talking to the place that sell these that these are all acrylics. Acrylics to me = not very durable.

Are these infact durable enough for commuter bike (and it rains here too, a lot, and snows, a lot)?

My instinct tells me to go with an epoxy primer and polyurethanes as everything else. I painted my oak table with one component poly, like 10-15 layers and it has been very very durable, so I have a feel for the durability of polyurethane and i like it.

So what are the options if I want nice and exclusive yet durable?
Is there any polyurethane that provides Candy/flake/pearl or similar to be had?

Anyone that have sprayed anything lately and ridden the results (good or bad experience don't matter).


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

- I don't know what the basecoats are, but I believe all the clears are catalyzed urethanes.

- Base/clear is a lot of work for a bike, but can be done. You won't get the customs in single stage, I don't believe. I think they are all 2/3 stage.

- Film build should be kept to a minimum, so a very thin acid etch or zinc rich primer is sometimes better than epoxy.

- Behind powder coat, anything from an automotive line will be the best you can do. Bake it if at all possible.


----------



## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

I know quite a bit about catalysed urethanes, actually. Not that I'm an expert painter by any means, but I am very well versed in the chemical industry. 

Catalysed urethanes are super dangerous without the proper PPE. If you don't have the equipement don't work with them. External air supplied full hoods and gloves are mandatory. 

The info on the MSDS is super hard to track down, but it is all there in black and white. Right from Dupont in my case.

I made my own air supply when I used urethane and I was so scared I screwed up the job. 

The bases are usually safe, and water based, it's the clears that are dangerous.

Drew


----------



## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

All right, I made some calls and visits today. First I found out I need to buy 4 liters at a time ( a whole box) if I want some flake/candy/chromalusion/whatever there is thats fancy. Plus thinner, and hardener, and it would cost at least 80€/liter. This is because its "special paint". wtf. I want like 10 different colors of these.

Then I went to a car painting/refinishing shop, but the told me the only use waterborne paints now and those needs special drying so they could not sell me any. (whats so special about it??)

Tjhen I called another car painting/repair/mechanic shop but they told me they they paint so few cars they don't have anything in stock to sell me and recommended me to call the first place......

So It turns out the biggest problem now is actually getting my hands on some paint. any paint. Without paying 400€+ for a single color job. I can't believe this sh1t.



Traiolmaker, my paintjob will definitely be a base/clear (and primer) type of job, and lots of colors too, I'm guessing I need (probably) a few different bases to make it work at all. I don't think its a lot of work. After primer I only need to go over it once between all layers with a 1000 grit paper or something. Takes at most 10minutes each time. I guess.


dru tell me more about the urethanes. I'm planning to work with either epoxy, polyurethane or some other kind of urethane (acrylic urethane maybe, if that even exists). All will be solvent based and not water based even though my spraygun can handle water based paint, I've heard nothing good about it. And from what I've heard the actual solvent is the least of my worries (and the rest of the crap they put in there to be able to exclude real solvents is a lot worse in water based paint, or so I've heard).

Anyway The hardeners are the worst I heard, but I'm not gonna hang around when they start gassing off so I'm not too worried about those. Also the place where I will paint is enormous and has badass ventilation system, still not gonna hang around there watching it dry though.

What mask is good for these types of paint? I can't afford one of those forced air thingies but I can definitely afford the absolutely best carbon filter masks. But I read that the stuff in the urethanes is not absorbed by carbon filter masks. is this true? Isn't this an organic molecule? Is it too to small to get absorbed?

Basically I can't afford a mask with a hose since those are like 800€, but I want some recommendations on the next best thing. Either way I'm guessing my exposure will be minimal, since my gun is a small size gun (for hobby aircraft and such) and the amount of paint is minimal too, and the place is very well ventilated and on top of that very large, several hundred m2 and like 10m height.

I saw some msds sheet for some dupont stuff too, I don't know any of the chemicals but just by seeing their names and exposure limits I know they are more or less poisons all of them.

to be continued.


----------



## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

Your body shop guys sound like they are trying to screw you. Those prices are completely out of line. You can by fantaistic water borne bases in small quantities. I used Auto-Air Colors Sparklesecent Mango, an absolutely gorgeous paint. A 4 oz bottle was $25 or $30, which is high compared to US prices.

It is water borne acrylic with a superfine metalflake. I shot it overtop of lacquer primer (a mistake-not durable) but should have used an epoxy primer instead. There are a bunch of different reducers people use, store bought or not. I used 3% Hydrogen Peroxide which kept the paint flowing really smoothly. Obviously water borne or not, you want to shoot with a mask. (Mine uses organic vapour & dust cartridges) I built a temporary spray booth in the basement that had blown in air from my dehumidifier to control moisture.

Now for the bad stuff. Lacquer based paints can be controlled 100% using the above mentioned PPE. Completely different matter for 2 part urethanes, which is either the actual paint you may want to use or the clear coat over the water based paint instead. The latter set-up is what I used and what many of the world's car manufacturers use.

The polyurethane's catalyst is the bad stuff, a class of chemicals invented by the Germans called isocyanates. There are several varieties of this stuff and of course the automotive is the worst. The problem is twofold; not only does it pass right through and organic repirator, but it also soaks right through the surface of your eyes. Other skin contact is somewhat less severe. This is why I mentioned full head hoods with external air supply and rubber gloves, coveralls etc. Nothing less will do.

How bad? Dupont's own MSDS has two studies listed for 8 hour exposure. (all this stuff is super confusing to read, but I've read a few in my day when I worked in a chemical plant) The recommended exposure from the 1st is zero parts per billion (in other words none) and the 2nd study lists a safe level as 5/1,000,000,000. That is a billlion btw.

Isocyante posioning is the culprit in 80% of the cases of occupational induced asthma (England) all from painting cars. While you may be fine after one or 100 exposures there is no recovery after you are affected. You can also get posioned after only one time. Someone my wife knows mysteriously got asthma a year ago, after he started painting cars. He was only using an orgainc cartridge respirator.

As I said I built my own PPE for the clear and it was pretty claptrap. Swim goggles for instance, and my air compressor for an air supply. I was really in over my head. The clear I used happens to come in an aerosol can; it has a special compartment holding the catalyst. Puncture it, shake like hell, and you have about 24 hours before the clear is no good. The cost for the can was about $20.

Not counting my shop equipment my material cost for my bike was under $100. If I did it again, Id have no problem doing everything except the clear. I'd send it out to a shop as I value my lungs way too much.

However, I have to say I'm pretty darn happy with my paint job, even with a less than stellar clearcoat.
The paint is 3 years old now and held up fantastic aside from a few gouges from dropping it on some rocks.


----------



## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

are you sure the isocyanates slip right through a carbon filter mask? a lot of paints use isocyanates in the hardener, I mean almost all paints. Maybe not the old school acrylics, but those require too much work to keep nice. I have to research this further. I mean sure i could hack some respirator too, but the air here could be whatever really, oil, dust, water, you name it. It would need filtering, better filtering than the paintgun requires (got that one covered soon) tharts for sure. I don't want to breathe worse crap than the crap i'm trying to evade. I need to make some calls.

isnt iscocyanates organic molecules?? So these would at least somewhat be filtered out in the carbon I think, or maybe not? anyway I have worked with polyester putty/spackling paste for many ears so I might already be fukd beyond all saving 

However safety first for me! But I'm still using "the bad stuff". 

At my old job they used to spray like these big structures in a bigass hall, first epoxy with zinc inside (possibly zinc chromate), then on top of that polyurethane, I think there were 2 painters and they both used about 50l or so paint each, of each variety. 30 minutes after (when the smell from the solvents was gone) people started working in there.... no ****. however I knew goddamn well what happens after those 30 minutes (now the isos start evaporating) so I didn't hang around. This was all legal too. in one of the most worker safety oriented countries in the world, if not the most (thats why its so ****ing hard for me to find some paint here).


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I think you are over working this. Yes, the stuff is nasty. I know because I have used it for 30+ years. Some might say that this explains everything... Prolonged exposure is not a good idea. Being stupid about it is not either. Spraying something once every year or two or three using a good quality mask is not going to kill you, or even cause any lasting effect, most likely. There's always the chance that someone may be unusually susceptible to the effects of the stuff, but this is not normally the case. I suggest you purchase a good quality full face coverage 3M (or similar) cartridge mask and git'er done. I have this one and it works very well... except if you wear glasses. I'm still working on that one.










Now, whether you can find the materials or not is another matter.


----------



## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> I think you are over working this. Yes, the stuff is nasty. I know because I have used it for 30+ years. Some might say that this explains everything... Prolonged exposure is not a good idea. Being stupid about it is not either. Spraying something once every year or two or three using a good quality mask is not going to kill you, or even cause any lasting effect, most likely. There's always the chance that someone may be unusually susceptible to the effects of the stuff, but this is not normally the case. I suggest you purchase a good quality full face coverage 3M (or similar) cartridge mask and git'er done. I have this one and it works very well... except if you wear glasses. I'm still working on that one.
> 
> ...


yeah thats what i'm saying. I just talked to my brother and whiles hes not a painter nor chemist or anything even remotely related he also found it not verey likely that isocyanates would not be absorbed by carbon filter masks. He also informed me the good ones use 3 layers, one for dust and splashes and 2 different activated cvarbon ones. So yeah no one in the biz has tried to convince me its _That_ dangerous. and i have family members being industrial painter for like 20 years, pretty knowledgeable ones too. and yes i already know **** gets absorbed by the skin, I knew that when I was 15 and working with it.

I'm gonna paint 1 frame, and 2 forks, thats it. you know. I trhink I'm gonna roll the dice of death by getting and researching the best carbon filter masks. and then painting that sucker. bare in mind this in not a small place, its several hundered square meters and its like 10m high. the volume is massive and so is the ventilation.

Still i have the problem with aquiring the actual paint... However I have a feeling it will work it self outr pretty soon. since i made some calls and ****. Worst case i have to travel. But it will most likely show up, and in small quatities too and at a price I can afford. Time will tell.


----------



## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

I went into this stuff a bit more since Trailmaker posted and 3M put out a paper stating that organic cartridges work just fine for isocyanates.

They claim that the problem with organic cartridges is primarily usage based, as an ill fitting mask or old expired cartidges will allow the stuff through. While the isocyanates have a low enough odor threshold that you'll get exposed before you are aware, 3M also claims that you'll most definitely smell the other solvents first, and will know you need to change cartridges or fix the leaking/malfunctioning mask.

However, none of the paint manufacturers will get on board with 3M and continue to insist on positive pressure hoods.

The chemical is bad stuff, don't forget that. You can't be cavalier about using it.

You'll see that Dupont's two studies recommend an exposre of none, or 5 parts per billion. To me, none means none. 5 parts per billion is pretty close to none as well.

*If you are going to take Trailmaker's advice get brand new cartridges and make sure you have an expert show you how do fit your mask.
*
When I worked at the chemical plant I was shadowed by a seasoned employee for 3 months straight. There was stuff there that would drop you dead if you screwed up. On my last shift a coworker got a 55 gallon drum of waste acetone chucked in his face. He was blind for a week. Very lucky indeed.

I've done the full rubber suit thing a few times, so I take all this stuff pretty seriously.

Here's a link to 3M's paper and DuPont's MSDS for isocyantes.

Get informed and be safe.

Drew

http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/visitor/common/pdfs/b/product/dr/MSDS/US_en_GNRC_12-0_RFN.pdf

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtnXTX4xMVEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I'd been using this type of mask for many years.










It has usually worked well, but recently I noticed it would not seal with my Winter facial hair. Not even a full beard, and I was getting fumes. I went with the full coverage model and it was clean and clear. I know very well when I am exposed because after many years of being around various automotive environments - even being fairly careful - I cannot take fumes or dirt & dust like I used to. My throat starts getting raw fairly quickly. The full face rig does do the job quite well. I can spray in poor ventilation and not get any reaction whatever.


----------



## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

TrailMaker said:


> It has usually worked well, but recently I noticed it would not seal with my Winter facial hair. Not even a full beard, and I was getting fumes. I went with the full coverage model and it was clean and clear.


This is the exact kind of stuff I am talking about. No one I worked with had beards for this very reason. Some guys had mustaches, but that's it.

Now, we took it so seriously that we ordered different size masks depending on the size of the user's face. I'm a medium build guy and very lean. However, I have a large skull and would have though that I'd have at least a large face structure. I wear an Xl motrorcycle helmet after all.

The guys who fitted me took one look and said 'nope, medium, maybe even small'. I ended up wearing a size medium mask.

Suck test, blow test, very tight straps, all part of the process. Was shown how to inspect and disassemble all the valves so problems could be avoided. No beards, bad seal. As for cartridge expiry, we chucked them as soon as we started tasting stuff. The charcoal gives back what ever is stored.

I'm really glad you've moved to a full face model, especially since the eyes are a direct means of exposure with isocyanates.

I had to use a full face one for some of the jobs I did at the resin plant. Look up methacrylic acid-you couldn't come 20 feet near an open drum (just the bung off) without the fullface or it would feel like your eyes were on fire. This is the stuff that I needed the rubber suit for.

About 3 months after my last shift I got called up from layoff and decided I didn't want to go back. Maybe a month later I got a job offer for a lab position with exposure to the same slew of chemicals. The lab guys had even less protection than the workers on the shop floor so I turned that down too.

It's not surprising that no one much older than 30 worked at the plant since everthing we worked with was either toxic or highly flammable or both. The entire north wall of the plant consisted of blast walls so they would blow out instead of the roof coming off the place if there was an explosion. The few times there were fires in the ventilation system some brave soul would empty a fire extinguisher into it to quell the flames before things got out of hand.

Drew


----------



## rbemiss (Nov 19, 2008)

seems to me your local voc laws are the biggest nightmare.
so using h2o based products are being stuffed down your throat. i have had no issues spraying any of them. 
i am using many brands and combos of all. i really like ppg brand clear. its urethane. flows nice.
but, still with all the safety issues for yourself as well as the voc laws it is tough. throw in 6-10k of investment...
sending it out might not be the worst situation. there is abig learning curve... good luck.
oh, the guy who gave me pointers back in the early 90's sprayd all day 6 days a week with a full beard...he spread a little vasoline around his mask for a good seal... so he thought ?


----------



## DSaul (Dec 13, 2012)

I don't know if they ship to where you are, but I get my paint from TCP Global. (sorry I can't post a link) The Kustom Shop stuff all comes in small quantities and the price is reasonable.


----------



## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

I think I'm in love

































































:yesnod:


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Ha;

PPG had a bunch of those in their jobbers to show off their custom systems. Personally, I think the "flip" colors are mostly hideous. Well... the ones that range out of one range anyway. The ones that go from brown-to-purple-to-blue-to-gold-to-green-to... people see that and go ooooohhhhh and paint their cars with it. Looks awful. Brown and Purple do NOT go together! The car looked like an grimy oil slick!

If the hue stays in a family of shades it is better. I had a Fisher Sugar 2+ Disc in Flippin Green. It went from colors that fit together; browns-to-golds-to-greens. It was stunning.


----------



## friz (Dec 2, 2012)

Tubes are terrible surface for any color shift medium. You need some large flat areas for these to look right at all. If you wet paint in any volume, your really need a fresh air system. Third, I would never consider using wet paint on a bike. Powder is more durable and modern powders can be laid on in multiple layers to achieve candy, flakes, and pearls. Also it is far easier to satisfy the EPA with a powder system then a wet system.


----------



## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

friz said:


> Tubes are terrible surface for any color shift medium. You need some large flat areas for these to look right at all.


Large flat surfaces are the worst for color shift paint. The local transit company painted buses with a blue/gold shift. They always looked dirty brown. Compound curves show off the shift.


----------



## friz (Dec 2, 2012)

shiggy said:


> Large flat surfaces are the worst for color shift paint. The local transit company painted buses with a blue/gold shift. They always looked dirty brown. Compound curves show off the shift.


Got me there. I wasn't thinking panel van. More like car fender.


----------



## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

TrailMaker said:


> Ha;
> 
> PPG had a bunch of those in their jobbers to show off their custom systems. Personally, I think the "flip" colors are mostly hideous. Well... the ones that range out of one range anyway. The ones that go from brown-to-purple-to-blue-to-gold-to-green-to... people see that and go ooooohhhhh and paint their cars with it. Looks awful. Brown and Purple do NOT go together! The car looked like an grimy oil slick!
> 
> If the hue stays in a family of shades it is better. I had a Fisher Sugar 2+ Disc in Flippin Green. It went from colors that fit together; browns-to-golds-to-greens. It was stunning.


I think the chameleons are mostly really ugly and "unclassy" too, it shows off peaoples bad taste. So far I have found like 2 or 3 thats nice and that doesn't look to much over the top. The one i dislile the most has the be the purple to whatever one that the TVR speed12 uses, its been so overused its not even funny.

Anyway I found out what you meant now with base/top/clear being a fukn hassle. 

ok to get this color








I have to spray that last one on 5 or 6 times. Its a candy. and when done i have to spray it with a clear coat.
and I have to spray it over this.









Which is flakes mixed in a clearcoat (_I think_, they are not very specific about this), that has been sprayed like 3-4 times over a black "base" that has been sprayed over a whatever primer that sits on the actual metal.

Now, while this seems like a shitload of work even to me, I wonder if those 6 coats are sprayed wet on wet or does itr have to dry for a day, sand then the next coat. OR can they be applied on a dried but non sanded surface (on itself)?

Do you know how this _usually works_ when things require 5-6 coats of the same stuff? these are urethane enamels I think.

Anyway, I really like this.
translucent "green to gold" flakes over black base, white base, gray base, and purple base. (this is more up my alley kinda, this I can do, and have the patience for).






























I don't know but I have a feeling it would be hard for me to be able to spray the same crap on like 6 days in a row and somehow making sure no one fuks it up for me when I'm not there. Or even storing it for such a long time and handling it 6 days in a row and expecting no one to touch it. I just don't see it happening.


----------



## afwalker (Apr 26, 2012)

I think the time between coats is not long. Looking at the House of Kolor FAQs, only let the coat dry to flashing off, if you wait too long it may wrinkle. You also need to clear immediately before the last coats dries past "hand slick" you must wait 12 hours, use a red scuff pad then clear. So it's more like 10 min between coats depending on ambient temp.
FAQ's Page
cheers
andy walker


----------



## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

That sounds more like something I am willing to do. Basically i'm just waiting for the solvents to boil off and not trapping them under the next layer? Yeah that makes sense. anyway I'm planning to do the bottom purple one combined with the white and the gold candy. most of it would be the purple one and like 25% gold, and the white would separate them in some stylish way.


----------



## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

The P pages will tell you what you have to do between coats. Generally it is a 15 minute flash time with urethanes, depending on temp/reducer used. You don't want to let them dry because then they REALLY need to dry and you have to scuff them. That might not work with some of this stuff because scratches do not always wet out again and it then looks hazy. It is best to flash-on-flash-on-flash till done. It takes a LOT of energy and concentration to do these finishes well. Not many can.

Some of those are 4-5 coat systems, with a base color (black, white, black, & black or purple in order as shown), flake, pearl, translucent (candy), and then c/c. Lots of work, and they aint cheap! Somewhere well North of $500 just for the paint alone for a car, easy.

The ones you picked look pretty nice.


----------

