# Beginner bike for mostly DJ/some mountain



## pbmatt32 (Oct 5, 2007)

hi, i'm looking for input on a choice of a new bike for mostly dirt jumping but also some mountain. Something that is around the $1000 area.


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## tibug (Dec 5, 2006)

*Kona Kona Kona!!!*

One word: KONA!!! (*K*icks *O*ther *N*amebrands *A*ss [for dirt jumping!!!])

Anyway, the Kona Stuff would be perfect for you. If you could afford the Cowan, then that would be even better.

The geometry of Konas make them some of the best dj frames, and on top of that, they're a good deal!

If you are doing a significant amount of all-mountain/freeride type stuff, then I suggest the Ironhorse Yakuza Bakuto (or whatever their freeride hardtail is called now...). Rscycle sometimes has good deals on Ironhorse bikes...

http://www.konaworld.com/bikes/2k7/COWAN/index.html
http://ironhorsebikes.com/
http://www.rscycle.com/

Good Luck,
Tim


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## urbanfreerider (Aug 13, 2007)

Specialized is good to with their P bikes. mine rides nice.


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## wako29 (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm gonna recommend P rides too. Just because they are really popular and you can pick up a nice used one with some good upgrades for way less than $1k


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## aggiebiker (Apr 18, 2006)

ima recomend the above, and the eastern nighttrain. because its ftw.


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## pizza (Dec 2, 2005)

P.1 
go singlespeed, whatever you get.
singlespeeds kick ass. If you ride mountain, it'll get your ass in shape, maybe even get you ripped (and get you a little respect). They're always lighter, easier to maintain, pedal smoother, they're silent, and will teach you to flow and jump efficiently. oh yeah, and they're cheaper. get some nice wheels to make up for the $$$ saved from no cassette, shifters, deraillers etc. plus your bars wont look like a big clusterf**k


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## PunkerTFC (Aug 12, 2007)

I've done some all-mountain riding on my Kona Shred before, I thought it rode very well on the trail for a jump bike, even with the 100mm fork. It'll quickly teach you why you should pick a good line! I think my hands were numb at the end of the first ride, but once my technique improved that was no longer a problem. Can't go wrong with a Kona, they are strong in all the right places.


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## PunkerTFC (Aug 12, 2007)

By the way, an '08 kona shred will run you $700. The components are entry-level shimano, but you can upgrade as you go and it's a great frame!


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## carbuncle (Dec 9, 2005)

Another vote for Kona or the IH Yakuza HTs. I had a Yakuza Waka-Gashira and it was bombproof (they're all the same frame).


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## pbmatt32 (Oct 5, 2007)

yeah i think i 'll go with a P1. I'll have to try it out first to see if i like it though. But it'll be my first bike that's actually half descent so i don't wanna jump to a really expensive one.


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## -.---.- (Jun 15, 2007)

I've heard some pretty bad stuff about Kona's, even in mags...I don't really trust those frames...their aluminium. You can get a 4130 cromo frame with the same weight, just better riding qualities. Get the 2008 P2 cromo, make it single speed and you'll be sure happy. Maybe you wanna consider a rigid fork? Good for street riding and helps pedal efficiency...something you'll need with single speed. A good rigid fork is a Dobermann fork...It's not on the website yet, but will be soon.

OOOh yeah forgot...Doberman Pinscher is excellent...but not for mountain by the way but you'll survive...It's all about dealing the terrain with what you've got you know what I mean?

so option 1= 2008 Specialized P2 cromo
option 2=Dobermann Pinscher with a matching Dobermann fork <<handmade in Quebec, no Sanko steel...real steel only!


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## pbmatt32 (Oct 5, 2007)

the 08 p2 cr-mo looks nasty though...i'm just gonna go P1...it's made outta same thing as P2 with same forks and stuff and it's single speed...plus hundred or so bucks less. I don't really see what difference is besides paint job (like P1's better) and price (like P1's better )


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## pbmatt32 (Oct 5, 2007)

oh and no cassette, derailleur stuff cuz it's single speed..just forgot that in differences


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## pizza (Dec 2, 2005)

I want a P. bike too... alas I have no monies... sh!t. Seriously those bikes are awesome. plus the lighter back end with singlespeeds= 90 degree whips like it's nothing.


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## pizza (Dec 2, 2005)

btw, shred does not look good for component specs. If you ride that bike for any stretch of time you'll quickly notice the shortcomings of sh!tty deraillers and brakes.


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## pbmatt32 (Oct 5, 2007)

yeah, i'm just not quite sure whether i should go for P1, or get P2 or P2 cr-mo and convert to singlespeed what are the differences between the three?


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## tibug (Dec 5, 2006)

-.---.- said:


> I've heard some pretty bad stuff about Kona's, even in mags...I don't really trust those frames...their aluminium. You can get a 4130 cromo frame with the same weight, just better riding qualities. Get the 2008 P2 cromo, make it single speed and you'll be sure happy. Maybe you wanna consider a rigid fork? Good for street riding and helps pedal efficiency...something you'll need with single speed. A good rigid fork is a Dobermann fork...It's not on the website yet, but will be soon.


You don't know what you're talking about. Yes, aluminum is supposed to break when overstressed, and steel is supposed to bend, but you're underestimating the strength of aluminum. Do you notice that just about every single DH/FR bike out there is aluminum, and a majority of DJ bikes are also. That's for a reason. Maybe you can figure it out?

Tim


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## pizza (Dec 2, 2005)

tibug said:


> You don't know what you're talking about. Yes, aluminum is supposed to break when overstressed, and steel is supposed to bend, but you're underestimating the strength of aluminum. Do you notice that just about every single DH/FR bike out there is aluminum, and a majority of DJ bikes are also. That's for a reason. Maybe you can figure it out?
> 
> Tim


frames can be made to equal strength with either material. the reason "just about every single DH/FR bike out there is made out of aluminum" is because full suspension frames generally have to be made out of a very rigid material in order to ensure consistent performance ofthe suspension. if it werre made out of steel, the more supple material, things would flex around a little more while the arms/linkages/chainstays/seatstays were moving, which would make the suspension action 'wonky' (not an expert here, just saying...). To be honest, I think the biggest reason most DJ bikes are built out of aluminum (if they even are) is because people like the feel of a totally rigid frame for some reason. personally, I like the feel of cromo/ steel. It doesn't beat you up as much.

to pbmatt, i didn't look terribly close into the difference between P.1/P.2 (too tired at the moment to check) cro mo but I'm pretty positive they downspec components on the P.2 crom mo in order to offset the extra cost of all those gears. the other guy was saying to go with the P.2 crom mo because if the singlespeed thing doesn't work out, you could always go back.

Personally, I think you should go with the P.1 because whats still on there is likely to be nicer than the P.2 (again, I didn't compare side by side) AS LONG as you're sure you want to go singlespeed, which I think is a great decision. After singlespeeding exclusively for two years I can tell you it will make you FAST, and it will make you tough. and its really, really fun. I would repeat myself but you probably read my other post so its all good.
I recommend you see what singlespeed is all about, if you haven't already. Don't let some goof bug you about efficiency either. They're fast. They're efficient, and the shortcomings are fewer than you think. Unless you really get into racing, I wouldn't worry too much about 'efficiency'. just watch your knees and you'll be fine.


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## darkest_fugue (Sep 25, 2007)

arent P1s heavy? i know he wants a mainly urban dirt jumper type affair but he wants something for the mountains too, i wouldnt want to be peddling up a hill on a heavy single speed dirt jumper!!! im going to be different here and say go for a rock hopper, the M4 frame is really light and strong, it will take on trails all mountain urban riding and it has good geometry for jumping, plus the componants are good, especially the comp and pro


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## tibug (Dec 5, 2006)

pizza said:


> frames can be made to equal strength with either material. the reason "just about every single DH/FR bike out there is made out of aluminum" is because full suspension frames generally have to be made out of a very rigid material in order to ensure consistent performance ofthe suspension. if it werre made out of steel, the more supple material, things would flex around a little more while the arms/linkages/chainstays/seatstays were moving, which would make the suspension action 'wonky' (not an expert here, just saying...). To be honest, I think the biggest reason most DJ bikes are built out of aluminum (if they even are) is because people like the feel of a totally rigid frame for some reason. personally, I like the feel of cromo/ steel. It doesn't beat you up as much.


Don't DH/FR/DJ bikes also have to be strong? I understand what you mean about the FS DH/FR bikes, but my point was that whatever material these bikes are made out of, it has to be strong.

I agree that good crmo hardtails ride less harsh than aluminum ones, and that some people prefer the small amount of flex that allows for a nice ride, but saying that you don't think a frame is good because it is aluminum is not really reasonable. I believe that by now, the difference in strength between steel and aluminum frames is, for the vast majority of riders, a negligible one. Because of advances in manufacturing aluminum frames (and also in steel frames) the choice of steel or aluminum should be a personal preference for most riders, and rarely will you have to step across the line between aluminum and steel to satisfy strength prerequisites.

I hope that makes sense.:thumbsup:

Tim


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## pizza (Dec 2, 2005)

tibug said:


> Don't DH/FR/DJ bikes also have to be strong? I understand what you mean about the FS DH/FR bikes, but my point was that whatever material these bikes are made out of, it has to be strong.
> 
> I agree that good crmo hardtails ride less harsh than aluminum ones, and that some people prefer the small amount of flex that allows for a nice ride, but saying that you don't think a frame is good because it is aluminum is not really reasonable. I believe that by now, the difference in strength between steel and aluminum frames is, for the vast majority of riders, a negligible one. Because of advances in manufacturing aluminum frames (and also in steel frames) the choice of steel or aluminum should be a personal preference for most riders, and rarely will you have to step across the line between aluminum and steel to satisfy strength prerequisites.
> 
> ...


I am agreeing with you here-- I believe I said that they can both be built to the same strength. but I just wanted to add that personally I like the feel of steel. Does that not agree with your statements? not trying to split hairs here, just saying I wasn't arguing your point. however, I used to ride a chameleon and BOY, did it feel good after riding urban with a trek 4900 (modified heavily). I mean, as far as stiffness and all. That frame was solid, and it made a huge difference asfar as confidence goes. I can understand why people like stiff frames. on the trails I got thrown around a little too much, though. thus, steel is the material for me as long as I ever hit trails.


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## pizza (Dec 2, 2005)

darkest_fugue said:


> arent P1s heavy? i know he wants a mainly urban dirt jumper type affair but he wants something for the mountains too, i wouldnt want to be peddling up a hill on a heavy single speed dirt jumper!!! im going to be different here and say go for a rock hopper, the M4 frame is really light and strong, it will take on trails all mountain urban riding and it has good geometry for jumping, plus the componants are good, especially the comp and pro


You know, I used to think the same thing, that you could dirt jump on an 'aggresive' cross country bike. I used to jump my on- one 456 (sort of a freeride/cross country hardtail), and after a while I switched to a true dirt jumper. all I can say is, it made a huge difference. it's soooooo much more comfortable in the air to have a shorter top tube and jumping geometry. after throwing myself at the jumps for weeks on my on- one, the switch made near instant progress. It makes a huge difference. also, you don't want to lug a heavy bike up the hill, but you certainly don't want your bike to break at the jumps or for urban riding! I wouldn't go for the rockhopper. the P.1 can't be _that_ heavy, and you won't notice extra weight once you get stronger. It's always relative. you ride a heavy bike, you suffer. you ride a light bike, it feels good for a little while, and then you suffer. unless you're racing to the top and you REALLY care about winning, go for the cross country bike. I wouldn't recomend it. just find slower friends ;-). I routinely race against people with bikes eight pounds lighter than mine and I still don't care or notice. You'll be fine.


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## tibug (Dec 5, 2006)

pizza said:


> I am agreeing with you here-- I believe I said that they can both be built to the same strength. but I just wanted to add that personally I like the feel of steel. Does that not agree with your statements? not trying to split hairs here, just saying I wasn't arguing your point. however, I used to ride a chameleon and BOY, did it feel good after riding urban with a trek 4900 (modified heavily). I mean, as far as stiffness and all. That frame was solid, and it made a huge difference asfar as confidence goes. I can understand why people like stiff frames. on the trails I got thrown around a little too much, though. thus, steel is the material for me as long as I ever hit trails.


OMFG, I feel like a retard. I thought I was replying to __.__ whatever his user name is this whole time. I accused you of things that were meant for him and directed my response at his first statement... :eekster: :skep: :madmax: :madman:

Sorry. I see my response as unreasonable now. We cool? 

Tim


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## pizza (Dec 2, 2005)

tibug said:


> OMFG, I feel like a retard. I thought I was replying to __.__ whatever his user name is this whole time. I accused you of things that were meant for him and directed my response at his first statement... :eekster: :skep: :madmax: :madman:
> 
> Sorry. I see my response as unreasonable now. We cool?
> 
> Tim


Im cool with everyone. even melt. I think. wait, not blue shorts. He has a poo- poo attitude. (nor- cal- ness)


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## trevorh (Jul 31, 2006)

Plus steel frames look so much cooler imo... clean


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## mack-a-nator (Apr 26, 2006)

for what this guy wants kona is the best hands down comming from personal experience, mine rides smooth as butter on the dirtjumps and trail riding is great, and there is a few models to choose from...if he was saying he would be riding it primarily for street i wouldnt suggest it, then i would go with a steel frame with shorter stays but the konas stay length and the rest of the geo is spot on for what you say you want


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## bricew25 (Oct 7, 2007)

Ya im going to have to agree with the kona comment ^^ ^^. He did say he wanted some mountain. I know pbmatt wnated a vike for xc trails too so I think a P1 is a little to heavy and has no gears. By the way what kind of kona is it.


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

the chromo vs. alu. thing has been taken way out of context here.... 
4130 will always take more direct hits in a bail compared to typical aluminum. You can ride a dented chromo bike, I wouldn't recommend it necessarily, but way safer than a dented alu. frame.

pizza had a pretty good explanation of why most FS frames are as they are though, but really doesn't apply as much to street/dj hardtails. 


I also highly disagree with the recommendations for the P bikes. heavy, odd geo. Same with the Kona's. feel free to argue.


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## pizza (Dec 2, 2005)

how about, say, a used chameleon frame and a cheap fork like marzocchi mx comp. should be no more than $500. another $300 and you have a bad ass singlespeed that would kick the sh!t out of any bike at the same price. not too heavy, fast, silent and strong. as long as you don't mind the bumps this thing delivers. trust me, at your price you want a singlespeed. much higher quality, at least what's there. gears are overrated. Tell me this bike doesn't look badass. If only I had the money...


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## boyfromthelak (Feb 16, 2004)

nothing wrong with aluminum hardtails









that being said i am getting myself a 4130 frame in the near future as the planet x is wanted by a friend


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## pizza (Dec 2, 2005)

hows this? pic's at least two years old, right after it was 95% finished. took it apart, painted it, two years later I jumped it. alas, no action shots. was getting my whips and tables nailed, too. meh. steel is awesome. ended up riding a 24 in the back, 130mm up front instead of the 120 in the pic, fixed the head angle, rode awesome.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

-.---.- said:


> I've heard some pretty bad stuff about Kona's, even in mags...I don't really trust those frames...their aluminium. You can get a 4130 cromo frame with the same weight, just better riding qualities. Get the 2008 P2 cromo, make it single speed and you'll be sure happy. Maybe you wanna consider a rigid fork? Good for street riding and helps pedal efficiency...something you'll need with single speed. A good rigid fork is a Dobermann fork...It's not on the website yet, but will be soon.
> 
> OOOh yeah forgot...Doberman Pinscher is excellent...but not for mountain by the way but you'll survive...It's all about dealing the terrain with what you've got you know what I mean?
> 
> ...


I love how new users have no opinion of their own. They just read useless crap (often posted by urbanfreerider) and regurgitate it.

Yeah... A Doberman is an inexpensive beginner's bike... Totally.

Yeah... Kona's blow... Totally...

Seriously, have you ridden either one? Or broken a Kona?

Sure the geo on the Kona may be a bit funky, but it's definitely a hardtail that I would be comfortable doing resort riding on. It's fairly versatile. It likes big stuff, it doesn't mind getting rough, etc. Riding street? Well... not so much. There are definitely some things I would change (some have been addressed in 08).

The geo of the p1 is not necessarily any better. Stupid low BB, toe overlap, blah blah blah. A bunch of cheap heavy tubing with a bunch of cheap heavy parts. Not exactly a steal (or a... wait for it.. "steel").

I know kids that totally rip on both frames. Doesn't mean it's a good bike.


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## dpspac3 (Oct 4, 2007)

What about the Norco Sasquatch? I got a small and while it comes set up for freeride, it feels like a dirtjumper once you get a 100mm fork on it. They usually come with Hayes 9's but with the big rotors. The bike actually does about everything, and is solid lofting through the air. With some Holy Roller tires, I even take it to the skate park and ride trail on my way there. With bikes, everythings a trade - off unless you have a very specific bike for each application ie dirtjump, urban, freeride and DH. The Sasquatch does it all for about 1000 dollars.


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