# Do I really need Full Suspension



## AJ10 (10 mo ago)

I been doing some road biking lately and love picking up a 16 lb bike. My Banshee is 32 lbs and when I'm climbing it's a beast , not to mention loading it up and the extra maintenance. Most the trails I been riding are smooth with a few bumps, nothing crazy.I'm about to sell the Banshee Phantom and go with something I can get to 25/26 lbs. Just hope I don't regret anything.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Replace the 4 cylinder with a V8... On a serious note, being in shape will help you get past the it's heavy thing to some extent.

Frankly, the Banshee is going to weigh in since the frame is not anemic.


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## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

You won't regret selling a 32-pound short-travel bike for riding smooth trails with a few bumps. That sounds awful, to be honest.


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## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

I love the feel of a good hard tail and I ride a Specialized Chisel as result. 26 lbs. Pocket rocket, no power lost to suspension, climbs like a scalded cat. It replaced a 30 lbs '04 Specialized FS, which I've ridden once in 3 years. I ride dirt. I dont jump or do long down hills and there are no rocks or difficult technical features in my woods. Love an HT for the riding I do.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

AJ10 said:


> I been doing some road biking lately and love picking up a 16 lb bike. My Banshee is 32 lbs and when I'm climbing it's a beast , not to mention loading it up and the extra maintenance. Most the trails I been riding are smooth with a few bumps, nothing crazy.I'm about to sell the Banshee Phantom and go with something I can get to 25/26 lbs. Just hope I don't regret anything.


You don't need FS, but a few pounds don't really matter for climbing. I went up 7lbs from one FS bike to a different one and had no issues matching/beating my climbing PRs. 

Hardtails with modern geo are both fun and efficient bikes so nothing wrong with getting one instead of your FS.


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

AJ10 said:


> I been doing some road biking lately and love picking up a 16 lb bike. My Banshee is 32 lbs and when I'm climbing it's a beast , not to mention loading it up and the extra maintenance. Most the trails I been riding are smooth with a few bumps, nothing crazy.I'm about to sell the Banshee Phantom and go with something I can get to 25/26 lbs. Just hope I don't regret anything.


No


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

You don't even need it on your car.


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## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

Yes


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## Xylx (Mar 18, 2005)

I have a carbon FS, but would not hesitate to buy a hardtail to get up the hills easier. Honestly, I rarely need a FS on most of the trails I ride. With 2.6-3" tires you'd be fine. I rode a fatbike with no suspension for a few years and it was fine on just about anything around here in southern Idaho. But I'm old and slow.


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## jrhone (May 23, 2011)

I have a hardtail as well. And a Chisel as well. Its in the 26 pound eange. Gonna swap to a Roval Carbon wheelset and that will get me in the 24 pound range. This is a FUN BIKE. Climbs amazingly well, light, comfortable and has compliance built into the design so those bumpy downhill runs wont beat you up too bad. I kept riding harder, more technical and wilder trails until i found the limit of my comfort level with this bike. News flash. Once i found a trail that made me uncomfortable on the Chisel, I realized is be uncomfortable on that teail on pretty much any bike. Not the kinda biking i wanna do. So for me a hardtail is perfect. Sounds like you are in the same boat.


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

There's a few points about a 26-27lb HT that no one has really touched on in the thread. It's light, cheap, reliable and durable enough to call pretty much bomb proof, and requires virtually zero maintenance. No exotic or high end parts required at all. I'm in that range and even running wire bead tyres lol. Tubeless. 180mm discs with a 4 piston front caliper. 2x 11 speed SLX drive train, XT 11 speed shifter, with some cheap Chinese 165mm cranks. Cheap carbon bars with a little bit of flex for comfort, carbon seat post and your good to go. I'm mid 50's with some pretty significant previous injuries, and find mine plenty comfortable. Just do it


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## ElTortoise (Jul 27, 2015)

After many years of riding a full suspension bike, I went to a 29er carbon hard tail. No regrets. Besides the extra weight of an FS bike, I got caught out on the trail a few times with a rear shock that blew out in the middle of a ride. With a lighter bike and one less thing to go wrong, I've been happy. The only downside is that you need to pick your lines a little more carefully.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

I used a 27.5 Giant XTC for several years, great bike and pretty light, but when I hit my early 50's noticed I was getting some back soreness after long rides so I sold it and picked up a stache 29+...Problem solved.
Still use a FS for certain trails but a HT is great on most of my go-to trails.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Spot Rocker frame has 67* ht>, 75.5* st>, 470 reach for a L.


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## Blue Dot Trail (May 30, 2018)

I personally feel full suspension is overkill a lot of the time.


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

I'd rather have a full squish 29er and be able to lock out the suspension than ride a rigid frame.It depends on what you do with the bike I guess, ideally you could either buy both, or have one that's light enough to be muti-function. In the late 90's I was riding stuff on a 26" hardtail. I didn't realize how much I was getting beat up from that aluminum frame and bars etc. I still think unless you're doing real downhill shredding and ride more xc stuff even just an inch or two in the back is preferable to a rigid rear end. Bikes like the Trek STP series were a great idea imho.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I'd get a short travel ~25 pound full suspension bike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

speedygz said:


> There's a few points about a 26-27lb HT that no one has really touched on in the thread. It's light, cheap, reliable and durable enough to call pretty much bomb proof, and requires virtually zero maintenance. No exotic or high end parts required at all. I'm in that range and even running wire bead tyres lol.



I do agree that it's nice to keep things simple but about the only maintenance difference between a ht and a fs is a rear shock. Most suspension pivots seem pretty darn reliable these days and you can even put wire bead tires on a full suspension bike if that's your thing.




ElTortoise said:


> After many years of riding a full suspension bike, I went to a 29er carbon hard tail. No regrets. Besides the extra weight of an FS bike, I got caught out on the trail a few times with a rear shock that blew out in the middle of a ride. With a lighter bike and one less thing to go wrong, I've been happy. The only downside is that you need to pick your lines a little more carefully.



Man, having a shock blow out during a ride seems like an extremely unusual event but twice? That's nuts! Have you ever experienced a fork blowout?


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Weight, as a stand-alone specification, doesn't make a lot of difference for me. I'm in northern Utah, mostly above 7000 feet with 3000 foot climbs and turn 70 in August. Because of that combo, heart rate control is my biggest factor. If I lock out the shock, or if I ride a hardtail, it means I have to be out of the saddle more to absorb irregularities in the trail. Every time I get out of the saddle, my HR spikes a bit. For me, that's more of a factor than weight (within limits, but my body weight changes are more of a factor than my bike weight - sadly).
I'm on a Giant Trance 29 that has some light (Race Face SL cranks, Berd wheels) components and some heavy (550 gram Fasst Flexx bars) components and just weighed the bike with Chester flats at 27.66 pounds. I would be considerably slower on a 25/26 pound hardtail. Rider specifics will dictate what's best, so maybe going to a 26 pound HT would be a big benefit. It's just hard to say.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

HT is super fun. Light, fast, agile. But then you get tired, and want to sit down and spin. Then you start feeling every little root and rock. Then you start thinking about a little travel would take the edge off....


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

One of each over here


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

****! I wouldn't give up my Wildcat in this life, let alone the next... Annnnnd, I wouldn't give up my Middlechild without shots fired.
Two bikes that bring some of the best times my way. 
The Wildcat is like a Fleetwood Brougham on two plus tires! The Middlechild takes trialsy to a new level. Play is required and these two know how to play.


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## maynard4130 (May 12, 2019)

Rent or borrow a HT for yourself and see. Don’t listen to the advice of others or what the industry says you need. I see so many people here riding FS trail and enduro bikes on essentially advanced XC trails.


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## trail_slayer (Jun 4, 2012)

Xylx said:


> I have a carbon FS, but would not hesitate to buy a hardtail to get up the hills easier. Honestly, I rarely need a FS on most of the trails I ride. With 2.6-3" tires you'd be fine. I rode a fatbike with no suspension for a few years and it was fine on just about anything around here in southern Idaho. But I'm old and slow.


Same here with The carbon squish. The older I get the more I appreciate it on the trails here is SW Idaho. I’ll gladly pay the price of climbing with a few extra FS pounds for more traction bombing DH. The older I get it seems the more sensitive the rump gets to bumps…


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

What is the budget, and how often do you use your dropper post on the smooth trails you ride with just a few bumps? 

If you can live without a dropper and want something hardtail-ish, something like a Trek Supercaliber 9.7 would hit your weight target while keeping some suspension. Orbea OIZ M30 or Canyon LUX CF6 would also hit that weight target with a little more travel at a bit lower price.

Increase the budget and there are a number of 25-26lb XC full suspension bikes with droppers, if not having a dropper is a deal-breaker.


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## AJ10 (10 mo ago)

r-rocket said:


> What is the budget, and how often do you use your dropper post on the smooth trails you ride with just a few bumps?
> 
> If you can live without a dropper and want something hardtail-ish, something like a Trek Supercaliber 9.7 would hit your weight target while keeping some suspension. Orbea OIZ M30 or Canyon LUX CF6 would also hit that weight target with a little more travel at a bit lower price.
> 
> Increase the budget and there are a number of 25-26lb XC full suspension bikes with droppers, if not having a dropper is a deal-breaker.


The budget is $1500 Frame, preferably something that will take a 120-140 fork and a 29x2.6. I'm actually thinking about a Ragley Big AL. Hardtail Party gave it a great review and the guy seems to have ridden every HT ever made. BTW if I removed my dropper I wouldn't even notice.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Maybe


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## r-rocket (Jun 23, 2014)

AJ10 said:


> The budget is $1500 Frame, preferably something that will take a 120-140 fork and a 29x2.6. I'm actually thinking about a Ragley Big AL. Hardtail Party gave it a great review and the guy seems to have ridden every HT ever made. BTW if I removed my dropper I wouldn't even notice.


That budget is definitely a hardtail budget. 2.6 tires will go a long way to smoothing out the trail even with a hardtail.

The good thing about bikes is they aren't marriages. If you ride it for a few years and decide you want to go back to FS you can. Or have multiples of both. I say go for it.


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## scoon (Aug 26, 2005)

$1500 for the frame? I think you could do better than a Big AL with that kind of cash. Canadian made Chromags are 1700.


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## jrhone (May 23, 2011)

Just curious…if you arent on rough trails with big drops…why so much fork travel??? My 100mm travel fork rarely gets more than 50mm and its setup soft and plush. If you NEED 140mm of travel you probably need FS.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

jrhone said:


> Just curious…if you arent on rough trails with big drops…why so much fork travel??? My 100mm travel fork rarely gets more than 50mm and its setup soft and plush. If you NEED 140mm of travel you probably need FS.


Ha ha, I liked your post because it totally makes sense and yet I have a hardtail designed for a 170mm fork. 
=sParty


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

jrhone said:


> Just curious…if you arent on rough trails with big drops…why so much fork travel??? My 100mm travel fork rarely gets more than 50mm and its setup soft and plush. If you NEED 140mm of travel you probably need FS.


While my Wildcat is equipped with 150mm of fork and a rear travel of 140, soft, Fleetwood Brougham suspension, I don't use it all on the smoother trails. Do use 80% on the chunk tho'. The Middlechild is also equipped with 150mm hangin in front and the rear tire for rear travel. I use 80% for trialsy play but 30-40% on smooth wide open throttle trails. Wouldn't trade that for anything. It really gets down to play time. Annnnd therapy for a cancer patient!


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## AJ10 (10 mo ago)

I like that too.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

J.B. Weld said:


> Man, having a shock blow out during a ride seems like an extremely unusual event but twice? That's nuts! Have you ever experienced a fork blowout?


I have. Hit and apex rock sticking up out of a fire road. I was on my old Gary Fischer HT with a coil fork. I was following my wife down the road and she rolls over the rock on her new Giant Anthem 29r like it was nothing. I hit it, and my forks blew out. Oil shot out of the damper, the internal coil mount broke, and the fork brace dropped to the crown. Metal on metal tapping a couple of times a second for 5 more miles of downhill rocky road. What I would have done for a few pieces of duct tape. I took my socks off and tried to tie the fork brace to the crown. Didn't work. Actually laying on my handle bars as I coasted downhill kind of dampened it. The upside was new Bomber forks and my wife actually witnessed the brake. That means green light purchase for those of you not married


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

AJ10 said:


> View attachment 1974571
> I like that too.











One speed automatic transmission and full time fun!

Annnd, forgot to mention, piss poor fuel economy with maximum fun factor!


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## jrhone (May 23, 2011)

Sparticus said:


> Ha ha, I liked your post because it totally makes sense and yet I have a hardtail designed for a 170mm fork.
> =sParty


im not saying a rowdy hardtail cant have alot of fork travel but generally you should match the fork travel to the types of trails you wanna ride. OP stated clearly he is doing nothing rowdy. He also stated he wants lightweight. Then he says he wants to hang a heavy fork designed for big drops on the front of it. Just a bit curious to me.


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## AJ10 (10 mo ago)

Yeah that's right jrhone. I'm sure even with a Fox 34 it will still be lighter than my Phantom.


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

Loved my MiddleChild, I had a 160 fox 36 on it though 😆


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## ElTortoise (Jul 27, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> I do agree that it's nice to keep things simple but about the only maintenance difference between a ht and a fs is a rear shock. Most suspension pivots seem pretty darn reliable these days and you can even put wire bead tires on a full suspension bike if that's your thing.
> 
> Man, having a shock blow out during a ride seems like an extremely unusual event but twice? That's nuts! Have you ever experienced a fork blowout?


I ran Fox front and rear on my FS bike and I'm running a Fox 32 fork on my hardtail. In 15 years, I have never had any issues with a Fox fork. I haven't been quite as lucky with the rear shock. Fortunately, they are pretty easy to overhaul.


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## howman66 (May 26, 2005)

I have a 32lbs V1 Banshee Phantom as well, and I love it. Climbs well, keeps me honest, but, saves me when I screw the pooch. And as much as I want a hardtail, I know that if I lost 5 kgs, it would make a difference, just like more time in the saddle, and upgrading the engine would make a difference. If I can get out and ride, smile, and ride with friends, cool. The perfect bike, weight, setup, and all this, feels like I am just chasing my tail and consuming...


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Lots of HT folks on this thread.

I switched up to FS years ago to help preserve my lower back. I briefly reverted to a very light HT for racing, but my back screamed at me for doing so.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

Nothing against HT at all and I was a strong adherent for a long time. Bought my first FS bike in 2017 with full intention of keeping my HT for "serious riding". After a couple of my favorite loops in a nearby trail system I found that I enjoyed the FS more, the FS was tracking better, and my times were better. The HT started collecting dust and was soon sold.

YMMV - ride what you love / love what you ride


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Man, having a shock blow out during a ride seems like an extremely unusual event but twice? That's nuts! Have you ever experienced a fork blowout?


It seems that some suspension designs put quite a side load on the shock and cause problems. I think Vorsprung did a video on it that pointed out the problems with trunnion-mounted shocks too.


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## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

Being a weight weenie is not a sound reason to get a full suspension bike like the way traction, control and comfort can be. Having had same bike in different frame materials and component levels has illustrated what I know - work on your bike engine before the bike.

I am guilty of some expense and weight weenie with what I call my sh_tty road bike - gravel bike. It was mostly about fit but let me sit on a bike up to hours longer and reach some endurance goals.

Delay gratification and go try lots of bikes is always my best advice.


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## AJ10 (10 mo ago)

I'm officially a hardass now. Love the 🥊


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Curveball said:


> It seems that some suspension designs put quite a side load on the shock and cause problems. I think Vorsprung did a video on it that pointed out the problems with trunnion-mounted shocks too.




I'm sure it can happen but definitely overall I'd say it's a very uncommon occurrence. Ime anyway.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Crankout said:


> Lots of HT folks on this thread.
> 
> I switched up to FS years ago to help preserve my lower back. I briefly reverted to a very light HT for racing, but my back screamed at me for doing so.


Deadlifts really helped me with lower back pain caused by muscle fatigue on the hardtail. I try to do a set of deadlifts twice per week and I still enjoy my hardtail at age 54.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

bitflogger said:


> Delay gratification and go try lots of bikes is always my best advice.


*Cannot be overstated.* My riding buddy bought the first nice one rode, then proceeded to change bikes every year for a while; I'm not convinced he'll stay with his current one much longer. I test rode a LOT of bikes, bought the one I kept coming back to and still love every time I throw a leg over it.


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## AJ10 (10 mo ago)

I ended up doing a NS Chromo frame, total weight of 28.5 lbs. Rode my first 10 miles this morning, I can tell it's a hardtail, mostly when landing off jumps. I'm definitely out of the seat a lot more. Climbing is a breeze. Very easy to get up and go. I'm happy so far. 

GO HEELS


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

AJ10 said:


> GO HEELS


High heels do not make good bike shoes.


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## KAH101 (10 mo ago)

I’d say it depends on where you live/type of riding you enjoy. I’m mostly on single track, gravel/dirt trails, moderate up/down hills that aren’t too technical, etc.


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## Calsun (May 12, 2021)

There are also gray areas in considering a "trail" bike. Gravel bikes with 42mm wide tires work well on many trails and much easier to pedal on paved roads to get to a trail. I recently added a PNW dropper post to my Scott Scale hardtail bike. A dropper is often provided on the high end hardtail bikes but omitted to cut costs on the entry level bikes. 

Tires play a key role and going to a tubeless setup will allow for running at lower tire pressures that can improve traction and provide a softer ride.


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## Aquilon (Apr 3, 2008)

No, you absolutely do not need full suspension.


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## MtnBkrBob (Aug 15, 2007)

No - you don’t need FS. A light-weight HT can be great under the right conditions. Back when I worked, I kept a single speed HT in my office to ride at lunch. It was an absolute rocket under the right trail conditions.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Aquilon said:


> No, you absolutely do not need full suspension.


Good.

Our bodies come equipped with approximately 10" of suspension in our legs and 8" in our ams.

Learn to use that, and you don't need a consumable destroying fast depreciating bike.

Oh, and our legs contain an automatic transmission for climbing hills, so you don't need gears either.


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## Aquilon (Apr 3, 2008)

Velobike said:


> …so you don't need gears either.


Sorry, mate. This is where we part ways.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Velobike said:


> Good.
> 
> Our bodies come equipped with approximately 10" of suspension in our legs and 8" in our ams.
> 
> ...


Well, I require a one speed automatic on my bike... You can keep that Strider, Jeez, Velo!!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

And not only that, you can burn fat instead of eating.


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

speedygz said:


> There's a few points about a 26-27lb HT that no one has really touched on in the thread. It's light, cheap, reliable and durable enough to call pretty much bomb proof, and requires virtually zero maintenance. No exotic or high end parts required at all. I'm in that range and even running wire bead tyres lol. Tubeless. 180mm discs with a 4 piston front caliper. 2x 11 speed SLX drive train, XT 11 speed shifter, with some cheap Chinese 165mm cranks. Cheap carbon bars with a little bit of flex for comfort, carbon seat post and your good to go. I'm mid 50's with some pretty significant previous injuries, and find mine plenty comfortable. Just do it


Thread drift.

You're talking about significant injuries.

I had

Partially torn elbow tendon from water skiing-repaired, no problems

Patellar tendonitis, repaired, no problems

Hip replacement-no problems

Various tendonitis-healed, no problem.

Arthritis both knees, no pain, twice a year hyaluronic injections

Arthritis in both big toes, no problem

Are these significant injuries if they don't stop me from skiing at a very high level and mountain biking at a medium -high level without pain?

Trying to learn terminology.

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk


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## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

AJ10 said:


> I been doing some road biking lately and love picking up a 16 lb bike. My Banshee is 32 lbs and when I'm climbing it's a beast , not to mention loading it up and the extra maintenance. Most the trails I been riding are smooth with a few bumps, nothing crazy.I'm about to sell the Banshee Phantom and go with something I can get to 25/26 lbs. Just hope I don't regret anything.


Hardtail can do it all


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

rod9301 said:


> Thread drift.
> 
> You're talking about significant injuries.
> 
> ...


I haven't the slightest clue what you're trying to say


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## dietz31684 (Mar 30, 2010)

Trifox just made a post about hardtail or full shock. Probably has all the info you need to make an enlightened choice!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Velobike said:


> Good.
> 
> Our bodies come equipped with approximately 10" of suspension in our legs and 8" in our ams.
> 
> ...




And dragging your feet provides plenty of friction for stopping, no need for bothersome brakes.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> And dragging your feet provides plenty of friction for stopping, no need for bothersome brakes.


Wears your shoes out. 

The manly thing to do is stick your foot into the spokes. Far quicker stopping than disk brakes...


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Velobike said:


> Good.
> 
> Our bodies come equipped with approximately 10" of suspension in our legs and 8" in our ams.
> 
> ...


Don't need wheels either. Feets come pre-installed...


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

NordieBoy said:


> Don't need wheels either. Feets come pre-installed...


Darn, I wish I realised that earlier. The money I could have saved on bikes...


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## AJ10 (10 mo ago)

Ok I have few miles in now on the HT. It's a fun bike on rough terrain but you feel it in your legs and ass when you sit down. At points I was wishing I had my FS. The HT climbs great. Hills that left me huffing and puffing before are now like wow that was it. We have one trail thats very smooth with lots of jumps and berms, it eats it up and the HT blows the FS away in fun factor. One of my favorite things about the HT is , it's quite and I won't be tearing apart rear suspension to clean up anymore for squeaks and creaks. Truth be told I love the HT, but I will be getting another FS for some of the rougher trails.


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## King of Pentacles (10 mo ago)

I have yet to even try a FS bike. I still ride an old 90’s rigid Bridgestone MB-3 and have a great time. But I’m a mellow trail rider, with some speed and smaller jumps, but that’s it. I’m not a high/far jumping enduro or downhill rider. I’ve never been the thrill seeking type, and I have a lot of respect for guys that can tear down Whistler runs at 35 mph.

Ride whatever makes you happy! I do! 🙂


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## AJ10 (10 mo ago)

King of Pentacles said:


> I have yet to even try a FS bike. I still ride an old 90’s rigid Bridgestone MB-3 and have a great time. But I’m a mellow trail rider, with some speed and smaller jumps, but that’s it. I’m not a high/far jumping enduro or downhill rider. I’ve never been the thrill seeking type, and I have a lot of respect for guys that can tear down Whistler runs at 35 mph.
> 
> Ride whatever makes you happy! I do! 🙂


 You know it. I put some 27.5 plus tires on the HT. The plus really help eat up some bumps.The best parts of the hardtail are, it's quite, it climbs and low maintenance. It's like a grab and go bike.


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## King of Pentacles (10 mo ago)

Nice! I may try a HT someday. But there’s something for me about the old rigid MTBs that I just love. The feel, the style, the sentimentality, I guess.


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## Champion_Monster (Nov 30, 2014)

On my moderate easy trail that gets hard and bumpy as hell in late summer I wouldn't consider anything but FS going forward. I even added 25mm higher bars to a Fuel EX8 to make things just a bit more casual yet, it's just right for me. Do I NEED a FS? No but It's definitely better riding experience for me in every way and I can bash when I feel like bashing, I have many more line choices and I have 3 usable shock settings from open to locked.


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## Calsun (May 12, 2021)

A hardtail is cheaper and lighter but a full suspension will provide for a more comfortable ride and better control on steep downhill trail sections. A rider on a hardtail needs to be more skilled and better able to anticipate conditions and brake sooner.

If my hardtail is stolen I will be out half as much as if my FS bike is stolen which is another consideration. 

Lots of videos on youtube showing the same riders on the same trails and using both type of bikes. Good way to see for yourself.


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## teleken (Jul 22, 2005)

I feel less beat up after a 2 hour ride on FS. On a road trip day ride that really helps for the drive home & recovery for the next ride.


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

What the op needs is a heavier road bike. I think my road bike is around 24lb, havent weighed it lately. My 160/140 travel trail bike is 29lbs, prob a little more now that i added a Secus to the fork.


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## parkmeister (Feb 2, 2004)

AJ10 said:


> I been doing some road biking lately and love picking up a 16 lb bike. My Banshee is 32 lbs and when I'm climbing it's a beast , not to mention loading it up and the extra maintenance. Most the trails I been riding are smooth with a few bumps, nothing crazy.I'm about to sell the Banshee Phantom and go with something I can get to 25/26 lbs. Just hope I don't regret anything.


have you considered a gravel bike? even lighter than a ht mtb, but it may be a deal breaker depending on the trails you ride and your riding style.


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## Cheeze Wheelie (May 24, 2004)

After three consecutive FS bikes in my thirties and forties, I'm back on a hardtail at 54 with no regrets. I also have a graveler, but prefer to ride my hardtail MTB most days because I like to bomb single track. I still ride as fast as ever, but I avoid the rougher and riskier trails that I used to charge down in my more carefree years. The hardtail makes me a much more competent climber and sprinter while giving up nothing on smooth descents. A 29er with 2.35" tires and a 4" fork offers plenty of squish all around.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Jayem said:


> And not only that, you can burn fat instead of eating.


I cannot justify going lower in weight... Funny how adult strength illness can do what cancer has done in my case!


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## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

I’m 54. Both my MTBs are rigid, steel and singlespeed. I ride super techy central Texas trails. I rely on BIG tires and low pressures. I give back very little to the squishy geary crew. I’ve had both hips scoped and recently grade-3 separated my shoulder. It’s up to you. Nobody _needs_ squish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

CCSS said:


> I’m 54. Both my MTBs are rigid, steel and singlespeed. I ride super techy central Texas trails. I rely on BIG tires and low pressures. I give back very little to the squishy geary crew. I’ve had both hips scoped and recently grade-3 separated my shoulder. It’s up to you. Nobody _needs_ squish.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My Wildcat did not approve that message, CCSS...

I love my FS plusser! Nothing like a Fleetwood Brougham cookin' along on a feature rich singletrack.


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## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

BansheeRune said:


> My Wildcat did not approve that message, CCSS...
> 
> I love my FS plusser! Nothing like a Fleetwood Brougham cookin' along on a feature rich singletrack.


I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt with all the pesky cancer sh!t you’ve been dealing with. Keep on kicking ass!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

CCSS said:


> I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt with all the pesky cancer sh!t you’ve been dealing with. Keep on kicking ass!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Of the three plussers at the moment, one HT, geared, one SS and one FS. All are wearing 3.0's because +.


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## Colo Springs E (Dec 20, 2009)

The answer is no, you do not.


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## tjkm (Jun 9, 2007)

I have been riding since 1989 almost exclusively on hard tails. I did have a FS Trek for about 8 months in the 2009 timeframe and then went to 29HT and then was on 29 HT's until a February. I picked up a Specialized Epic EVO Comp with 120/110 travel.

Necessary - hell no. Nice to have - yes.

I may add a HT back at some point, but I am usually a 1 bike guy.


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

King of Pentacles said:


> Nice! I may try a HT someday. But there’s something for me about the old rigid MTBs that I just love. The feel, the style, the sentimentality, I guess.


There's a nice mostly smooth trail around here that I would love to cruise with a 1990s rigid steel bike. Something with all shiny alloy mechanicals and classic lines.

I like having suspension. I fancy myself an XC racer, even when I'm not racing. My first mountain bike was a late 90s aluminum HT, and I learned to navigate the roots and rocks around here pretty well. I liked the responsiveness, but there was a lot of getting off the seat for this root, that rock. When I got my FS in the early 00s, it was a revelation. The roots for which I previously had to get completely off the seat, now I just had to lighten up a bit on the seat. The roots for which I previously had to lighten up a bit on the seat, not I just kept pedaling over.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Every time I ride my rigid bike over rocks & roots I remember why I race a full suspension.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Do you need full suspension? No. 
Do you need front suspension? No. 
Do you need gears? No.
Do you need a bike? No. 

Take your pick.


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## shadowsports (May 10, 2009)

You need FS <<<


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## AJ10 (10 mo ago)

Lots of great reply's to my 1st post. I been on a Chromoly HT for a month now. It's a blast. I don't need FS, but I do miss it.


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## AJ10 (10 mo ago)

After 10 months. Please , for the love of god don't let me sell my next FS bike.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

More than a few times I’ve tried to go back to hardtails, but it’s a total fail for me.

I’d rather pedal a heavy bike that is comfortable, than an uncomfortable bike that is light.

Both of my bikes are 35-36# and they ride like a dream 👍

It’s pretty funny reading this thread end to end, all the comments and thumbs up, your positive intermediate impressions, then less than a year later your back to full suspension.

Awesome!


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Ben, I do both FS and HT because bikes! 
Hell, I'm run 3.0's on my walker in the old age home an leave tire marks everywhere including the ceiling!


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

Sanchofula said:


> More than a few times I’ve tried to go back to hardtails, but it’s a total fail for me.
> 
> I’d rather pedal a heavy bike that is comfortable, than an uncomfortable bike that is light.
> 
> ...


Reality check. I have ridden hard tails most of my life. I rode BMX, Road bikes, early mountain bikes with all rigid frame and forks, then hardtails with suspension forks spanning over 50 years. I know what they feel and ride like completely! I finally got a full suspension bike and I love it. I have no plans or desire to return to the dark ages.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

BansheeRune said:


> Ben, I do both FS and HT because bikes!
> Hell, I'm run 3.0's on my walker in the old age home an leave tire marks everywhere including the ceiling!


If you don't muni, you can't really love the wheel


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Sanchofula said:


> If you don't muni, you can't really love the wheel


Ben, I hafta have the training wheel in front of me! Terrible, I know!


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## Rodmunch (Feb 24, 2008)

Having both an FS and HT is the way to go. Different bikes for different trails.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

Rodmunch said:


> Having both an FS and HT is the way to go. Different bikes for different trails.


Yes! I enjoy both my FS and my hard tail fat bike. Switching between them reminds me of the advantages of each. Please don’t make me choose!


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Rodmunch said:


> Having both an FS and HT is the way to go. Different bikes for different trails.


18 of em make up the collective. The leader of the hive mind is a bicycle.


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## AJ10 (10 mo ago)

UPDATE: The HT was fun and very low maintenance but to answer the question myself , it's YES I do. The 1st couple rides where fun because it was something different and a nice quite ride. After a few weeks of beating the hell out of my body , I found myself searching for smoother trails to get more ride time.The trails where boring and no one wanted to ride with me.I rode a few time with my normal group but it wasn't as fun.After the 1st mileI was hyperventilating trying to keep up instead of BSing in the middle of the pack.Eventually my riding became less and less. Ive gained 15 lbs since getting a HT. I broke down and bought a 26lb carbon FS and now i'm looking forward to hitting the trails.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Reality. Always plays a role.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Experience.
Seldom the only way to learn but often the most convincing.
Congrats on the new bike! 
=sParty


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## mtb128pedal (Oct 30, 2020)

Teach me. I'm on the FS fence. Almost jumped over but put a PNW Coastal suspension dropper on my HT 26er. But I procrastinated the choice to January/February. I'm a Trek fan so looking Fuel EX 8 Gen 5, Top Fuel 8 or Top Fuel 9.7. Will I get pedal strikes trying to pedal through the rough stuff? Will going from 28 pound HT to over 31 lbs hurt? I'm thinking the Fuel EX 8 Gen 5 but put lighter 2.3/2.4 tires and later lighter wheels. Pretty much same geometry as the new Top Fuel with more suspension. With suspension locked will it be good for a 8 miles road ride to the trail?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I have a 27lb hardtail, and a couple 35lb (ish) full suspension bikes. Guess which one I ride the least? 

Oh yea, the hardtail. It's also consistently the slowest over the same trail. It's a lot of fun to ride, when I'm in the mood though.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Honestly, my long travel 2022 FS sled weighs 10 lbs more than my short travel racing FS from 20 years ago.
I don't climb as fast as I used to but I believe this has more to do with me being 20 years older than it does with the bike's increase in weight.
Beyond this, I have far more fun on my heavier, more durable, confidence inspiring, more capable 2022 bikes than I did on my lightweight race bike.
One rider's experience.
=sParty


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

mtb128pedal said:


> Teach me. I'm on the FS fence. Almost jumped over but put a PNW Coastal suspension dropper on my HT 26er. But I procrastinated the choice to January/February. I'm a Trek fan so looking Fuel EX 8 Gen 5, Top Fuel 8 or Top Fuel 9.7. Will I get pedal strikes trying to pedal through the rough stuff? Will going from 28 pound HT to over 31 lbs hurt? I'm thinking the Fuel EX 8 Gen 5 but put lighter 2.3/2.4 tires and later lighter wheels. Pretty much same geometry as the new Top Fuel with more suspension. With suspension locked will it be good for a 8 miles road ride to the trail?


Don't waste your money on a suspension dropper. I had one years ago and it messes up your pedal stroke. On a FS bike, your distance from your pedals to your seat stays fixed where you lock your dropper to. Just the distance from your bottom bracket a the ground changes. With a suspension dropper or pivot post the distance from the pedal to the seat is constantly changing and messing with your cadence. I took off after a few weeks of inefficient riding. Still sitting in a drawer 10 years later. 
The Fuel is a solid bike. I almost bought one (they come in an XXL), but got a great deal on a used Santa Cruz Hightower C XXL. The Fuel with the dual lockout is designed to be a trail bike that you can do distance with, and unlock it for some Enduro downs. Carbon even better if you can afford it.


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

Sparticus said:


> Honestly, my long travel 2022 FS sled weighs 10 lbs more than my short travel racing FS from 20 years ago.
> I don't climb as fast as I used to but I believe this has more to do with me being 20 years older than it does with the bike's increase in weight.
> Beyond this, I have far more fun on my heavier, more durable, confidence inspiring, more capable 2022 bikes than I did on my lightweight race bike.
> One rider's experience.
> =sParty


I used to have more absolute views on this.

Now, having ridden some exceptional modern FSs the only thing I can do is repeat what others have said - can’t really know until you have substantive time on each on trails you’ll ride often.

I have 2 HTs and 2 FSs and they would all generally be considered aggressive trail. They’re all set up very differently and I swap wheel/tire sets depending on what I am going to ride and how I feel like riding “it” that day.

My favorite one, completely honestly, is the one I just got off of.


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

DGUSMC said:


> I used to have more absolute views on this.
> 
> Now, having ridden some exceptional modern FSs the only thing I can do is repeat what others have said - can’t really know until you have substantive time on each on trails you’ll ride often.
> 
> ...


Which just now happens to be this one…








…I know, cranks North/South, pedals all askew, mismatched wheels and dirt everywhere. My point is if THAT doesn’t make your heart go boom, boom, boom…you’re probably not a hardtail guy.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

mtb128pedal said:


> Teach me. I'm on the FS fence. Almost jumped over but put a PNW Coastal suspension dropper on my HT 26er. But I procrastinated the choice to January/February. I'm a Trek fan so looking Fuel EX 8 Gen 5, Top Fuel 8 or Top Fuel 9.7. Will I get pedal strikes trying to pedal through the rough stuff? Will going from 28 pound HT to over 31 lbs hurt? I'm thinking the Fuel EX 8 Gen 5 but put lighter 2.3/2.4 tires and later lighter wheels. Pretty much same geometry as the new Top Fuel with more suspension. With suspension locked will it be good for a 8 miles road ride to the trail?


The rougher your trails, the more that you'd appreciate a FS bike. 28 lb. to 31 lb. isn't much and wouldn't be any issue. And yes, locked suspension will be just swell for a road ride to the trails.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

DGUSMC said:


> Which just now happens to be this one…
> View attachment 2015723
> 
> …I know, cranks North/South, pedals all askew, mismatched wheels and dirt everywhere. My point is if THAT doesn’t make your heart go boom, boom, boom…you’re probably not a hardtail guy.


Very cool bike!

My riding is kind of dimorphic. I have some very steep and quite chunky trails that I use my FS enduro bike for and then my hardtail for the various smoother green and blue trails around.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

AJ10 said:


> UPDATE: The HT was fun and very low maintenance but to answer the question myself , it's YES I do. The 1st couple rides where fun because it was something different and a nice quite ride. After a few weeks of beating the hell out of my body , I found myself searching for smoother trails to get more ride time.The trails where boring and no one wanted to ride with me.I rode a few time with my normal group but it wasn't as fun.After the 1st mileI was hyperventilating trying to keep up instead of BSing in the middle of the pack.Eventually my riding became less and less. Ive gained 15 lbs since getting a HT. I broke down and bought a 26lb carbon FS and now i'm looking forward to hitting the trails.


I'm sorry, but no pictures means no new bike.  

Let's see the new one!

And congrats.


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## mtb128pedal (Oct 30, 2020)

Tall BMX'r said:


> Don't waste your money on a suspension dropper. I had one years ago and it messes up your pedal stroke. On a FS bike, your distance from your pedals to your seat stays fixed where you lock your dropper to. Just the distance from your bottom bracket a the ground changes. With a suspension dropper or pivot post the distance from the pedal to the seat is constantly changing and messing with your cadence. I took off after a few weeks of inefficient riding. Still sitting in a drawer 10 years later.
> The Fuel is a solid bike. I almost bought one (they come in an XXL), but got a great deal on a used Santa Cruz Hightower C XXL. The Fuel with the dual lockout is designed to be a trail bike that you can do distance with, and unlock it for some Enduro downs. Carbon even better if you can afford it.


I’m liking the PNW Coastal dropper. It’s more sold for gravel bikes. Supposed to keep the pressure high so it only moves over a hit. Softens the bigger hits. That said I test road the Fuel EX 8 Gen 5 for the second time today to see how it performs in the road. I’d get a second set of lighter wheels set up for local Eastern Va trails. Next week I hope to test ride a Top Fuel 9.7. The later may deal. If not and like having shorter suspension I’ll order a Too Fuel 8.
Like a dropper on a HT. 









Old school HT. 60mm travel is not enough.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

mtb128pedal said:


> I’m liking the PNW Coastal dropper. It’s more sold for gravel bikes. Supposed to keep the pressure high so it only moves over a hit. Softens the bigger hits. That said I test road the Fuel EX 8 Gen 5 for the second time today to see how it performs in the road. I’d get a second set of lighter wheels set up for local Eastern Va trails. Next week I hope to test ride a Top Fuel 9.7. The later may deal. If not and like having shorter suspension I’ll order a Too Fuel 8.
> Like a dropper on a HT.
> View attachment 2015737
> 
> ...


Oh wow. Any new FS bike will be worlds different* from that old HT.




* I used the word "different" because the modern FS will be significantly better on _most_ trails. On very smooth and twisty singletrack without too much elevation, an older HT like that can be quite fun. Even the rim brakes are fine if it's dry and you aren't going down any serious hills.


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## mtb128pedal (Oct 30, 2020)

Curveball said:


> Oh wow. Any new FS bike will be worlds different* from that old HT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree everyone neeeeeds Full Suspension. Just how much?

Oh my HT has disc brake (cable) on the rear. Frame does not accommodate rim. Could go disc on front but I built that Ringle hub front wheel about 25 years ago.


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## AJ10 (10 mo ago)

Curveball said:


> I'm sorry, but no pictures means no new bike.
> 
> Let's see the new one!
> 
> And congrats.











I have a few parts to add. I have a better pic in a week or less. Thanks


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

mtb128pedal said:


> Agree everyone neeeeeds Full Suspension. Just how much?
> 
> Oh my HT has disc brake (cable) on the rear. Frame does not accommodate rim. Could go disc on front but I built that Ringle hub front wheel about 25 years ago.


Keep in mind that if you get a new bike, it might feel a bit strange for a while. Once you adjust to it, it will amaze you.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

mtb128pedal said:


> I’d get a second set of lighter wheels set up for local Eastern Va trails. Next week I hope to test ride a Top Fuel 9.7. The later may deal. If not and like having shorter suspension I’ll order a Too Fuel 8.


There will be a noticeable weight change going to a 29r. More rubber, more rim with and a bit slower to react steering wise. Once you get used to it, the rubber will make the biggest difference. Light tires with a faster rolling tread design is noticeable. The wider the tire, the slower on flat and trail. The Fuel comes with 2.5 width tires which are fairly wide for XC riding. A 2.3" width tire will roll faster on harder surfaces.


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## Champion_Monster (Nov 30, 2014)

mtb128pedal said:


> Teach me. I'm on the FS fence. Almost jumped over but put a PNW Coastal suspension dropper on my HT 26er. But I procrastinated the choice to January/February. I'm a Trek fan so looking Fuel EX 8 Gen 5, Top Fuel 8 or Top Fuel 9.7. Will I get pedal strikes trying to pedal through the rough stuff? Will going from 28 pound HT to over 31 lbs hurt? I'm thinking the Fuel EX 8 Gen 5 but put lighter 2.3/2.4 tires and later lighter wheels. Pretty much same geometry as the new Top Fuel with more suspension. With suspension locked will it be good for a 8 miles road ride to the trail?


I switched from a 2013 Specialized HT on which pedal strikes were frequent and, occasionally, full-on ejection crash causing to a size Large 2021 Fuel EX8 last year. When I picked up the bike the Mino/Flip link was in the low setting but I put it in High and haven't touched it since. It's remarkably resistant to pedal strikes!

The 30-31 pounds doesn't bother me at all even though my older HT was about 26.5 pounds or so. I could only see wanting to lock out the suspension in the specific instance of standing and banging on an steep uphill for protracted distances, a situation I don't encounter much on my local trail. Leaving it in the open position makes for a smooth, fast, absorptive ride. Since I don't have a lot of elevation change, I ride it like an XC bike and just leave it in open and the only limiting factor is my stamina.


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## mtb128pedal (Oct 30, 2020)

Champion_Monster said:


> I switched from a 2013 Specialized HT on which pedal strikes were frequent and, occasionally, full-on ejection crash causing to a size Large 2021 Fuel EX8 last year. When I picked up the bike the Mino/Flip link was in the low setting but I put it in High and haven't touched it since. It's remarkably resistant to pedal strikes!
> 
> The 30-31 pounds doesn't bother me at all even though my older HT was about 26.5 pounds or so. I could only see wanting to lock out the suspension in the specific instance of standing and banging on an steep uphill for protracted distances, a situation I don't encounter much on my local trail. Leaving it in the open position makes for a smooth, fast, absorptive ride. Since I don't have a lot of elevation change, I ride it like an XC bike and just leave it in open and the only limiting factor is my stamina.


But do you wish you had a 2022 Top Fuel with a little tiny bit less travel. Road a Fuel EX8 again last week for a flat road test. I could sprint the 11th cog. Not enough space to shift to 12th. Next week I’ll try the Top Fuel 9.7 again. May end up with the best deal. So it how much suspension does one need.

Any issues with the press fit BB? I’ve always had threaded and can work on those.


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## Champion_Monster (Nov 30, 2014)

mtb128pedal said:


> But do you wish you had a 2022 Top Fuel with a little tiny bit less travel. Road a Fuel EX8 again last week for a flat road test. I could sprint the 11th cog. Not enough space to shift to 12th. Next week I’ll try the Top Fuel 9.7 again. May end up with the best deal. So it how much suspension does one need.
> 
> Any issues with the press fit BB? I’ve always had threaded and can work on those.


I really like all of the available travel as there are plenty of heavy root/rock areas even in my flowy, relatively flat local trails and I also never need the 12th cog so I can relate to that. Since I'm not really trying to beat any specific time, I don't need every last bit of lightness and find the bike to be forgiving, handle very well and feel like I've found the right bike to keep indefinitely.

I'm not a mechanic nor do I ride 10-20 hours a week like everyone else on here, but I haven't had many issues in 300 miles or so besides minor squeaks here and there and requiring a derailleur adjustment on the SRAM Eagle GX Drivetrain. That is with 0 maintenance besides the adjustment.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

mtb128pedal said:


> So it how much suspension does one need.


This is a great question and also one that's hard to answer. Some considerations are how rough are your trails? How fast do you like to descend? How fast do you like to climb? How much comfort are you looking for? It's all a balancing act of a lot of different factors.

For example, where I live it's quite mountainous with a lot of topograhic relief, steep and rough trails, and generally smooth climbs on logging roads. It's not too hard to find a 3,000 or 4,000 foot descent here. For all that, I have a longer-travel enduro bike which suits my trails pretty well.

My bike probably wouldn't be a whole lot of fun in less steep and rough parts of the country.


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## Tall BMX'r (Jan 11, 2021)

My bike bike is definitely a tweener suspension bike. 135mm / 160mm. It sucks up most of the bump, plus I have a FOX Float X2 shock which is so much better than the stock Float DPS. I can set it plush if I'm shuttling, but I run a little higher pressure for XC rides with lots of climbing. I've taken some drops 4 feet-ish to flat and never bottomed out. Part of that is how I learned to land bigger drops on my old HT's. I use my legs and arms, and land back tire first. My just about 60 year old body (with a 20 year old mindset) feels the bigger hits more😣 I like where I'm at suspension wise. Suits my riding style which is a little higher front because I ride a lot of steeps. Not so great on the climbing, but my new 240mm dropper gives me the maximum range of seat positions. Really high for XC climbing (which helps), and all the way down for standing and descending.


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## mtb128pedal (Oct 30, 2020)

I hear ya. East coast roots with short ups and downs. Think Freedom Park and York River State Park and Pocahontas. After retiring in a year I plan trips to the mountains. Caravan Cove type places. Been there on the HT. No bike parks and not much air. Well maybe a little bit lately. Just some suspension to increase the ride time and distance. I do keep track of time. Mainly to get back home quicker. I figure the 120 to 140 range of the ‘22 Top Fuel or Fuel EX I’ll enjoy. As long as I never know the other.  I figure whoever gives me an acceptable deal I’ll go with. The in stock bikes have been sitting on the show room floors since last spring. Heck work the next 12 months may not give me much time to ride off road. May only be able to sneak 90 minute road rides.
I like to post pictures.


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

Looks like a great place to ride. I'm in the midwest with short ups and downs, rocks and roots. I like to race, so I went with one of the short travel FS bikes (Supercaliber). It's just what I want for a short intense ride or race. It takes the edge off the rocks and roots and when you give it the gas it moves. As mentioned above, there are better bikes for 4,000 foot mountain descents. Although back in the late 90s I took my HT to Colorado, and loved it. I like to ride single track (up and down), and the light HT was very nice for the climbing. I just couldn't let speeds get out of hand on the way down on an aluminum HT with V-Brakes.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

I will say that a full-suspension bike with 130 to 140 mm rear and 140 to 150 mm fork will work very well for most people in most places.


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## AJ10 (10 mo ago)

Curveball said:


> I'm sorry, but no pictures means no new bike.
> 
> Let's see the new one!
> 
> And congrats.


All Done..


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