# Why ban throttle talk?



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Was going to comment on the "adding a throttle" thread that was just locked, that having a throttle is perfectly inline with the definition of what is considered an ebike and that having a throttle doesn't not mean you can't ride your ebike in state parks.

Federal definition does not mention a throttle and implies that one is needed since the top speed of the bike powered solely by the motor must be determined to define what an ebike is.

"Defined. The federal Consumer Product Safety Act defines a "low speed electric bicycle" as a two or three wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals, a top speed when powered solely by the motor under 20 mph (32 km/h) and an electric motor that produces less than 750 W (1.01 hp)"

As for not being allowed to ride an ebike with a throttle on the same trails ebikes without throttles are allowed, it depends on where you are. In Delaware, unless specifically called out, there is not throttle restriction.









So why ban talk about throttles in this forum?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Talk of throttles is not banned, but starting a thread to specifically provoke an argument and then participating in the argument that ensues is gonna get your thread locked. Go back and read the first post by Lemonaid, he was poking a stick at a bear, and the bear started fighting back.

That sort of behavior is not going to work here.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Bear? where's the bear?


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

singletrackmack said:


> Was going to comment on the "adding a throttle" thread that was just locked, that having a throttle is perfectly inline with the definition of what is considered an ebike and that having a throttle doesn't not mean you can't ride your ebike in state parks.
> 
> Federal definition does not mention a throttle and implies that one is needed since the top speed of the bike powered solely by the motor must be determined to define what an ebike is.
> 
> ...


If your gonna use a throttle make sure you use a thumb throttle or a half twist throttle. Not a full twist throttle like a motorcycle those are terrible for ebikes and you will accidently accelerate at some point when moving your bike around.

Throttles are great for areas that are extra trecherous and help you avoid pedal strikes. I had a bad pedal strikes last week and it bent my pedal. Had to finish my ride with a lop sided pedal. Sucked.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Phantastic79 said:


> If your gonna use a throttle make sure you use a thumb throttle or a half twist throttle. Not a full twist throttle like a motorcycle those are terrible for ebikes and you will accidently accelerate at some point when moving your bike around.
> 
> Throttles are great for areas that are extra trecherous and help you avoid pedal strikes. I had a bad pedal strikes last week and it bent my pedal. Had to finish my ride with a lop sided pedal. Sucked.


Learn how to ride first. You should not be striking your pedal so hard. I have had about 5 pedal strikes in 20 years. Calm down.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Learn how to ride first. You should not be striking your pedal so hard. I have had about 5 pedal strikes in 20 years. Calm down.


Sorry if we are not all world class riders like you. I had a pedal strike because I wasn't paying attention to the terrain. Still had a fun day riding though.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Learn how to ride first. You should not be striking your pedal so hard. I have had about 5 pedal strikes in 20 years. Calm down.


How about you calm down? Pedal strikes happen fairly regularly in technical terrain;not everybody is riding goomers all the time.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

There is no reason for a throttle if you are riding a bicycle. 

Throttles to prevent pedal strikes is a cop out. 

I have had more pedal strikes on my mountain bike than I can count. I routinely walk terrain that is above my pay grade.

Pedal assist is not throttle assist.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

We arent talking whats federally legal for street use.

DOT regulations dont apply here as DOT does not regulate areas deemed "no motorized vehicles".

A hand throttle control is no longer "assist" and becomes a motorized vehicle as it is no different than an underpowered dirtbike at that point.

This is where the line between basic electronic assist and being motorized is crossed. The purpose of a motor is to replace the need for human or animal to power a vehicle. The grey area is the "assist" which requires pedaling effort of the rider to function. In lower gears thats minimal but not enough power to cause issues. To achieve higher speeds actual rider effort is needed. Hand throttle means no human real physical efforts are needed to do anything. Making them an e-dirt bike.

Since this is a mountain biking forum, not an e-dirt bike forum, crossing the line to full hand throttle control only adds to the problems being seen. 99% of those looking at an ebike will see the discussions here and associate mountain bikes and e-bikes as one. Problems of this are already beginning with blanket bans against all e-bikes. 

Not fair to those with pedelecs that need them for assistance but still human powered to be banned because the rest feel entitled that their e- dirt bikes should be allowed too because they put pedals on them.

A line has to be drawn and hand throttle opens up pandoras box. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

I think the Pandora's box was open way before hand throttles.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

But they're legal on non motorized trails in some places, so I think if you want to have a forum discussing emtbs, you can't ignore them.

You can ghost pedal a PAS bike with a cadence sensor, so how is that better somehow than using a throttle?


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## gooseberry1 (Mar 16, 2016)

One thing I noticed at dirt demo with the ebikes and the trail for them was how bad it was torn up. With that said I’m not sure if they just cut the trail for them or it was just getting torn up. I did ride some of the regular trails and they did not show the damage. I also will say as I get older a ebike might let me ride with the young kids. The last thing is if you get busted riding a ebike on a none motorized trail they should be able to kill the battery and make you ride that weight out. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I've ridden the bike that Harry mentions, an OEM product with a PAS level that produces full power no matter how softly or slowly one pedals and is advertised that way. It's easier than using a throttle. We'll keep discussing PAS or whatever the group decides, but throttles aren't the devil IMO.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I don't see the problem with throttles where they're legal. No worse or better than PAS as far as I'm concerned; the line between bicycle and not-bicycle for me gets drawn at adding a motor in the first place. How it's activated is just a minor detail.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

As we've pretty much agreed on, it's not a different class like rigid, soft-tail, hard tail, FS; it's a new class, phylum or however we classify them. It's an electric bicycle (or whatever other terminology one uses, but not the terms that are banned).


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> There is no reason for a throttle if you are riding a bicycle.
> 
> Throttles to prevent pedal strikes is a cop out.
> 
> ...


I totally agree that adding a throttle to avoid pedal strikes is a cop out. We should focus on riding through treacherous terrain in a manner to avoid pedal strikes. That is the correct way it seems. I'm just saying that technically having a throttle can help you avoid pedal strikes. It's another benefit if you want to look at it that way.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

If we really want elderly people and people with physical handicaps out riding, which is always brought up as a big reason for e-bikes, then throttles should be on every bike - because they really do enhance safety for a lot of people in a lot of situations. I have a 70 pound e-cargo bike with a throttle and with a couple of kids and some groceries you *need* that throttle to get started from a red light going uphill. It would be totally unsafe without the throttle. 

There are plenty of analagous situations when mountain biking (getting started or just preventing yourself from stalling out on a hill). 

It's really power that matters. A 2000W monster bike that I have to pedal is going to be way worse for other trail users and future access than a 250W bike that has a throttle. 

-Walt


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I agree and disagree with what Walt is saying. 

I can see the advantages of a throttle, assistance in walking a heavy ebike, adding a touch of throttle where pedaling is prohibitive, and adding a kick when starting on a grade.

BUT

Much of what we're talking about is not really about improving mountain biking access as much as it is about setting limits on what you should expect from your bike vs taking personal responsibility for your choices.

An ebiker on rough terrain who needs a throttle to access trails is likely choosing trails about their skill level. In this case, a throttle is not appropriate as it is more likely to cause them to get in over their head. 

The same can be said about having to walk your ebike. If you can't ride the trail, at a certain point you will hike your bike. If you cannot hike your ebike, then you need to choose a different trail.

A cargo ebike ridden on the road is not an mountain bike, so it really doesn't belong on MTBR.

I agree there should be a limit to power, but that power should still be only pedal assist; not ghost assist, which is essentially a pedal based throttle work around.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

IMO opinion, throttles should only be allowed if they go "braaap!" and a puff of VP smelling smoke scents the air.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> I agree there should be a limit to power, but that power should still be only pedal assist; not ghost assist, which is essentially a pedal based throttle work around.


And pedal assist is just a legal based human powered workaround. Throttle or pedal assist? I just don't see much practical difference, just personal preference. I can definitely see how pedal assist would make it a more integrated experience and would be more fun for a lot of people.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Pedal assist- no pedal, no go.
Throttle assist- twist and go. No need to be on mtbr.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Pedal assist- no pedal, no go.
> Throttle assist- twist and go. No need to be on mtbr.


To me it seems more than a little hypocritical to say that drawing a line between motorized/non-motorized is unfounded and wrong and then draw a line between throttle and pedal assist.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^to each his own. Mopeds have throttles, e"bikes" should not. JMO right or wrong doesn't matter. Too many years twisting a real throttle..


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Gutch said:


> Pedal assist- no pedal, no go.
> Throttle assist- twist and go. No need to be on mtbr.


motor- no reason to be on MTBR


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^ yeah, yeah, yeah. BUT IT IS AND PROBABLY WILL BE FOREVER! Get over it.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> To me it seems more than a little hypocritical to say that drawing a line between motorized/non-motorized is unfounded and wrong and then draw a line between throttle and pedal assist.


No kidding. Especially coming from a guy who rides a 3000w motorized bike with a throttle illegally on non motorized trails.

I think if the forum is limited to what a few people define as an ebike, instead of what the law says is an ebike, its just silly. The law defines them, the law(s) allow them to be ridden in specified places, if the forum isn't aligned with the laws, and someone with a 350w PAS bike can't talk about it here because it's been declared verboten since it's over 250w, your ebike forum is no longer valid. It's just a clique of 250w PAS lovers.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Well, how *much* should you have to pedal? My bike has a cadence sensor and you can crank the power up and then pedal super easy and go 20mph. As in, maybe a couple watts of power. I could put 50mm circus bike cranks on it and still cruise around. 

I agree that I don't see the point in distinguishing how you get the power. What matters is how much power you have.

-Walt


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Harryman said:


> No kidding. Especially coming from a guy who rides a 3000w motorized bike with a throttle illegally on non motorized trails.
> 
> I think if the forum is limited to what a few people define as an ebike, instead of what the law says is an ebike, its just silly. The law defines them, the law(s) allow them to be ridden in specified places, if the forum isn't aligned with the laws, and someone with a 350w PAS bike can't talk about it here because it's been declared verboten since it's over 250w, your ebike forum is no longer valid. It's just a clique of 250w PAS lovers.


Your mistaken Harryman, if you think I would own one of those. I'd go back to my ktm 450 first! The real emtb manufacturers have already made it a clique of 250w Pedelec, no?


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> There is no reason for a throttle if you are riding a bicycle.
> 
> Throttles to prevent pedal strikes is a cop out.
> 
> ...


According to the rules of this forum, a bicycle is pedal-power only. So a throttle wouldn't be on a bicycle, unless it was non-functional. I'll assume you meant e-bike. In which case there is a reason - to allow some additional flexibility in activating the motor.

Saying "Throttles to prevent pedal strikes is a cop-out" is similar to saying "e-bike riders are lazy". It's sticking a negative label on something you don't like. It's impossible to argue with this type of statement, as it's just an opinion. If someone is riding an e-bike legally, why should I worry about how they activate the motor?

Pedal strikes or no, I too have had to walk stuff over my pay grade many times when I just didn't have the oats to make it. I could say using a motor is a cop-out, but at this point I think that everybody has gotten their licks in on both sides, and it's time to put that kind of thinking aside and just have an honest discussion.

I don't agree that we should vilify throttles, and say pedal-assist is fine. So the guy that activates a 250-watt motor with a throttle is doing something bad, but if he is putting down 250-watts plus his pedal power it is fine?

Another question - is there a specific definition of pedal assist? If the rider is putting out 10% of the power, and the motor is putting out 90%, is that pedal assist? I am far from an expert on e-bikes, but my understanding is that on e-bikes without throttles, when the motor is activated with the pedals, the rider may be contributing as little as 0% of the energy used to propel the bike forward. If I am wrong about this, I'm open to hearing the facts.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Your mistaken Harryman, if you think I would own one of those. I'd go back to my ktm 450 first! The real emtb manufacturers have already made it a clique of 250w Pedelec, no?


Nah, I meant phantastic, not you, my mistake for not making it clear.

It's a 250w clique for now, 750w to come once they figure out how to keep drivetrains together.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

No worries, totally agree. 750w will give them future time to expand, thus not adopting the EU standards.


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Learn how to ride first. You should not be striking your pedal so hard. I have had about 5 pedal strikes in 20 years. Calm down.


Come ride Tunnel in Santa Barbara. You will beat your 20 year record in about a mile and a 1/2.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

A throttle is not pedaling, a throttle is used when pedaling is not an option either by choice, fitness, skill level, or other valid "reason".

I'm not judging people for using an ebike, I am an ebike advocate, my wife rides an ebike.

However, there are boundaries issues with adding an electric motor to a bike.

What I'm saying is that adding a throttle makes ebikes less palatable to non ebike supporters, leading to more disagreements and greater perceived risk of access disputes.

It is not hard to set limits on mountain ebikes that are acceptable to the majority of mountain bikers: pedal assist and limiting power to 250w.

You will have a very hard time selling the necessity of a throttle to trail users as throttles have an immediate correlation with motorcycles/mopeds/ORV.

If throttled, high powered ebikes become the norm, the liklihood of ebikes being disallowed on all trails other than ORV trails is nearly guaranteed.

If you really want to enjoy your ebike on anything but roads, ebike users and ebike mfgs would be best served by getting on this bandwagon and pushing this agenda.

I don't ride an ebike, so my only interest in ebikes is maintaining access for my wife to ride. If she can't ride singletrack on her ebike due to restrictions, then she will hike and I will continue to ride.

Even as an ebike advocate, if our local trail group met to discuss this issue, I would not vote for allowing throttled high powered ebikes, even if it meant that ebikes were no longer allowed on our trails.

I encourage you to think ahead, envision the possible outcomes, ask yourself what you want and what can you give up. 

There are few if any locales that will be required to allow ebikes on non motorized trails. It is easy to ban ebikes.

Just think about it.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> A throttle is not pedaling, a throttle is used when pedaling is not an option either by choice, fitness, skill level, or other valid "reason".
> 
> I'm not judging people for using an ebike, I am an ebike advocate, my wife rides an ebike.
> 
> ...


Hey....I'm not suggesting everyone who has an ebike to hack that thing and stick a throttle on it. I was just answering a guys question about what the benefit of having one could be.

Im a stakeholder as well and I don't want to see MTBs or Ebikes banned from trails either.

But just being honest, noone is gonna be banning MTBs from trails in the near future. We will see more trails open up to MTBs and some may welcome Ebikes and some may prohibit them.

The bottom line is if these laws will be enforced. If no one really cares to report Ebikes then ranger Rick doesn't care to do anything about it and everyone can ride in harmony. Or....MTBers can complain in mass and overwhelm land managers with pressure to get these dang ebikes off the trails resulting in many more ranger Ricks patrolling ticketing and confiscating ebikes until noone dare take an ebike anywhere near a trail. Most likey the former will happen as most people arent bothered by it and not enough ebikes are terrorizing trails to make it an issues. But who knows.....well have to wait and see.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Forster said:


> Good site for eBikes, you just need to start a thread for two wheelers.
> 
> POWER WHEELCHAIRS and ADAPTED MOBILITY VEHICLES


I recently saw two very large women ride up to a clinic near my work on recumbent ebikes. I thought it was great seeing them on an ebike rather than a rascal or scooter.


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## Zerort (Jan 21, 2013)

The only people that will complain about ebikes will be the first 20 top people on a strava segment. Everybody else will either not care or won't realize what is happening around them.


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