# Independent Pedaling System



## ADV (Jun 7, 2009)

I was looking at tandems on Craigslist and ran across a cannondale MT800 with a Independent Pedaling System by Advanced Transportation Products. This looks like something I might like to have on cannondale MT1000. Any one out there have any information or good pictures of this system?

Madison Wisconsin Craigslist is where I say the bike today. Dont know hot to put a link to it.

Thanks JOHN


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

Cannondale Tandem MT800

http://www.hostelshoppe.com/atp_archives/ips_instructions.pdf

Vision Bikes doesn't seem to have a current website, but there's other contact info in the link above.


----------



## Hurricane Jeff (Jan 1, 2006)

I have tried an independant pedaling system on a DeVinci tandem, years ago (didnt get that much time and it was in a parking lot) We have some mixed emotions about it,1) have you every had your cranks just a little misaligned on your tandem? the timing just doesnt work right. 2) I believe if the system had a on/off lever, meaning you could dis-engage the cranks to be independant (useful in technical areas) and engage them to your pre-set position, would be better. Maybe I'll design a system like that in my free time... 
I know of tandem riders who like the IPS, but for the little time we spent, I wasnt impressed.


----------



## arly (Apr 20, 2005)

*Our ICS experience....*

We got lots of mileage with locked in sync, or normal tandem drives and with Independent Coasting System (ICS) by DaVinci. On the road, we found we couldn't appreciate ICS equipped bikes and eventually took it off our road bike after 2 seasons of trials. Years after that, we got a DaVinci Symbiosis and expected we'd remove it as well. To our surprise,, we loved it for MBing and yes we've ridden locked in sync MBs as well.. Today you couldn't pry the ICS off of our MB's as seen below. I should add that this setup runs the timing chains up,, which keeps them out of the way for MBing. The independence of our cranks keeps us from hitting the logs along the trail or the side of the benched trails we frequently do. Plus while going up hills at low speeds, we can still get around things weather both of us can pedal, or not...... Hope that helps.

Gromit has updated her blog with ride adventure photos taken over the weekend. Most of these were taken on the fly. 

The Trail Mutt Reports


----------



## ADV (Jun 7, 2009)

Is there any way I could put a IPS on my current cannondale? I am a machinist and can make what ever parts i would need just need more information.


----------



## arly (Apr 20, 2005)

Not to my knowledge. Seems if you did the labor yourself, you could have bought a bike (or two) by the time you were done. 

Some years ago a company was offering a kit, but I can't recall the manufactures name or seen them around for years. Not sure if it was "Advanced Transportation Products" or not. Sorry about that.


----------



## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

the use of the tiny "chainrings" in place of a regular chainring in the da vinci setup seems like a drivetrain eater to me. i always try to stay out of the granny gear when I can, because smaller front rings put a lot more tension in the chain and thus tend to eat up the cassette. 

For those with a da vinci setup, do you notice your cassette wearing quickly?


----------



## arly (Apr 20, 2005)

*dearing gearing explained*

No they don't wear faster or have much different stress as any MB tandem has. You may not have noted the primary timing chainrings that are mounted on the cranks drive a smaller ring on a intermediate BB. This is a "step up" in gearing, which largely cancels out the small steel chainrings you speak of. Clear as mud?? :madman:: The end result is the gear ratio or inch gear is pretty much the same as most MB's. In fact we set ours up with the largest inch gear as possible,, since our legs don't seem to not be getting any stronger as age progresses. Go figure! :eekster:


----------



## Johnbonn (Apr 7, 2015)

ICS we echo Arly above. After over 25 years of road tandeming we sold all our road stuff and bought a Davinci Symbiosis. After one ride my stoker has no problem syncing up and the ICS is truly necessary for single tracking for all the reasons Arly points out and more! Can't half pedal pump at will on a tight switchback climb connected! Incredible tandem! If you haven't tried a Davinci you don't know what you are missing, once you do you will ask why you waited so long. The ICS truly takes a tandem to a higher level of performance! Enjoy the ride!


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Our next tandem will be ICS, just as soon as we can get DaVinci to build for a 29+/27+ tire


----------



## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

ADV said:


> Is there any way I could put a IPS on my current cannondale? I am a machinist and can make what ever parts i would need just need more information.


A machinist, eh? I'd LOVE to upgrade my '97 MT800 to disk brakes in the rear. Lots of room on the left side for a bracket. I'm sure it could be done without too much trouble. I would incorporate the drum brake tab for additional grasp and torque load handling.

Have you done this??? Willing to consider making something for a fellow Cannondale rider?

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks.


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

The problem isn't going to be the bracket, but the resulting weld. 6160 needs to be heat treated after welding as the heat of welding anneals the aluminum in that area. It won't take the load of a rear disc brake.

Look into Brake Therapy, they have bolt-on adapters for lots of bikes.


----------



## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

*No welding intended.*



Okayfine said:


> The problem isn't going to be the bracket, but the resulting weld. 6160 needs to be heat treated after welding as the heat of welding anneals the aluminum in that area. It won't take the load of a rear disc brake.
> 
> Look into Brake Therapy, they have bolt-on adapters for lots of bikes.


Yeah, I realize you cannot weld that heat-treated alloy. I'm imagining something that can mount around the axle and bolt to the dropout on the inside via the two threaded rack mounts. Additional purchase could be achieved by clamping the dropout through the slot in it, sandwich-style. And to reduce torque loads on the dropout itself, anchor the bracket to the drum brake tab on the chainstay.







This pic shows pretty clearly that there's a lot of flat area on the inside of the dropout to work with. Also, since it's an unpainted frame, no paint to hinder solid mounting.

Thanks for the suggestion about Brake Therapy. I may have looked at their offerings before, but will take another look.

PS Quiz: can anyone guess what the black bolt in the lower rack mount might be???

PPS OK, the Brake Therapy option looks like just the right thing. I had found a competing product a few years ago that was no longer available, or didn't appear to work on my tandem. Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

By the time you are done messing with that frame, you'll be a couple steps closer to getting a new frame, so why not spring for one now? The Fandango is a nice choice


----------



## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

*Yeah, but I plan to go all in on an EDCM.*



Nurse Ben said:


> By the time you are done messing with that frame, you'll be a couple steps closer to getting a new frame, so why not spring for one now? The Fandango is a nice choice


Perhaps. But given the vintage of the bike's parts, and the fact that several things would need to be upgraded in a frame swap, not really worth it. And I may want to consider other wheel options, which would entail added expense of wheels.

Since Ventana's about an hour away from me, I plan on visiting them and plunking down the serious cash for a new EDCM. If I go that route, I can sell the Cannondale to help offset the cost, if needed.

That's the goal, an EDCM for some SERIOUS fun (not that we don't already have a blast as it is. But I know the wife will wonder why we went 20 years without full suspension when we finally do take the plunge).

Until then, the Cannondale has served us very well and will continue to do so. Running disc brakes in front has been so nice, that I'm just jonsing to toss the Magura rim brakes and enjoy disc in back (I already have the disc brake from a friend, just need a hub [Phil won't consider modifying the drum threads on the FSC cassette hub to accept a disc rotor mount, bummer - might consider trying it myself...]). So if I can pick up a Brake Therapy and find a 140mm disc hub, I'm set (got lots of rims in the shop).

But thanks for the suggestion; I appreciate it.


----------



## Okayfine (Sep 7, 2010)

As you have drum-brake threads, there are adapters out there for a disc mount. I believe Santana makes one, used it on our old KHS with a Brake Therapy adapter.


----------



## DHMASTER (Oct 12, 2010)

For pedaling in the rough stuff I would never consider using an IPS. When we rip past a BB height rock at speed my stoker needs for me to clock the pedals to save him from an impact that he could never see coming. Also imagine the stress you would put on a frame with two strong riders standing and charging with pedals out of sync. Not for me, no way.


----------



## Johnbonn (Apr 7, 2015)

Don't knock it till you try it!!! You will never go back!!! Communication is more important but again nothing like it!!!


----------



## ebnelson (Oct 30, 2006)

I've never ridden on the back seat. From what I hear from the stoker, she says that she can't see obstacles coming. If she could see or anticipate what is coming the IPS might be great. I'm thinking for log hopping or similar maneuvers. Otherwise, I don't see the point.


----------



## itsdoable (Jan 6, 2004)

DHMASTER said:


> ... imagine the stress you would put on a frame with two strong riders standing and charging with pedals out of sync. Not for me, no way.


We ran an IPS tandem as a Single Speed a few years ago (quite a few!), and the first few hills were... um... rough. Wild out of control, lets try to break the frame rough. Then we figured out the timing & synchronization, and it was fine.


----------



## Johnbonn (Apr 7, 2015)

The syncing up comes naturally for my stoker we have been riding linked for over 25 years and for obstacles all I say is pedal up which means level left up or right for obstacles left or right and as she clears see naturally pedals over the obstacle clearing the crank. Seriously I have ridden linked for over 25 years and WE are finding ICS is far better. It's independent coast not independent pedaling so if there is such a thing can't speak for IPS. Again don't knock it till you try it. And just the thought of a frame snapping from being out of syn uhhh you better re-evaluate your frame builder.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

We'd get ICS for the independent coasting. Now, if I want to pedal and she's tired, all she can do is put her feet on the bars; seriously, she really does that 

ICS might also be hopeful when riding over uphill water bars. The current technique is to accelerate hard twenty feet or so before the water bar, then coast with cranks horizontal, then as soon as I sense that her pedals are clear, I hammer down and hope that we have the momentum to clear without stalling.

This works okay, but it'd be nice if she could pedal us over the hump to keep our speed constant. I wonder whether she would be able to see well enough to stop pedaling...


----------



## Welnic (Feb 6, 2013)

Maybe if you started pedaling as soon as you could she could key off of that to stop.


----------

