# Which of todays bikes are tomorrow's classics



## Kansasflatlander (Jan 13, 2004)

A few weeks back I enjoyed a thread discussing the criteria for defining a classic bike. TrukeeLocal had a particularly insightful list of what makes a classic bike. It got me to wondering which of today's bikes will be treasured 10-15 years from now. Though today's technology have yielded bikes that are the best riding ever, are today's bikes like many of the modern cars produced, souless numbers that will be discarded after something better comes along?

I am all tapped out on my bike purchases, but if I was convinced that there was a bike made today that I would regret not owning a few years from now, I might muster up enough budget to spring for one. My main ride is a Heckler. Though it almost has a cult following, I don't see it being a classic in 15 years.

Here is a partial list of questions to consider.

Will it be American made? 
Is it possible for a bike made in Taiwan to be a classic?
Can a 2004 hardtail by the right manufacturer be a classic in 10 years?
Which of the current FS designs have a shot at being a classic?
Must the maker be one of the original greats, or are there new kings in the making?
Could one of the large US manufacturers make the list? Consider that maybe a Trek or Cannondale could also close their US factories, creating a scramble for the US made versions.
What Boutique manufacturer's are likely to be bought, go out of business, retire?
Which singlespeeds will make the list?

This was the thread that started my curiosity:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=3391

Thanks for your feedback.


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## Bigwheel (Jan 12, 2004)

Kansasflatlander said:


> Will it be American made?
> Is it possible for a bike made in Taiwan to be a classic?
> Can a 2004 hardtail by the right manufacturer be a classic in 10 years?
> Which of the current FS designs have a shot at being a classic?
> ...


I think that a bike like this will be a desirable classic in time,










It has a solid design, yet with innovations that will ultimately date the bike. It was made by a small builder that will be remembered in association with the innovation also. Also it was an expensive bike to begin with compared with others of the same gendre.

As far as overseas bikes making the classic grade I would think that a bike like this has a chance,










Even though the bike is ugly as sin, and was made in China and cost about $800 to build it represents once again innovation and has prototype appeal that when compared to bikes of the same gendre in the future will make it stand out as "olde school" technology.

This single speed would probably make the grade also.










These bikes are all less than 5 yrs old currently.


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

I agree with Bigwheel. I think the next classics are going to be the early small builder 29" models out there. I think innovation makes a bike a high potential for classic status. There'll be a few small builder 26" too. Like todays classics though, they'll all be expensive in thier day.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Kansasflatlander said:


> A few weeks back I enjoyed a thread discussing the criteria for defining a classic bike. TrukeeLocal had a particularly insightful list of what makes a classic bike. It got me to wondering which of today's bikes will be treasured 10-15 years from now.


Its always tough to know what tomorrow's success will be. For hardtails, I think that the same criteria as current "classics" will remain. Smaller manufacturers will be collectable, as a good hardtail does not go out of style. I'd expect Sycip, Soulcraft, Strong, IF, and the like to remain desirable.

Full suspensions are a shot in the dark. If suspension designs continue to improve, will you want a current FS bike at all? For novelties sake maybe. As an everyday rider, who knows? Part of the problem I have with FS bikes is you never know if bushings, shocks, linkages, etc. will be available. Buying an old FS might yield a bike that rides inferior to current bikes, and can't be repaired if it breaks. To me that reduces the desirability (although I'm sure some models will carry value into the future).

If I were predicting future "classics" I'd probably stick to hardtails.

My $0.02 anyway.


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## Jeroen (Jan 12, 2004)

Kansasflatlander said:


> Is it possible for a bike made in Taiwan to be a classic?
> Can a 2004 hardtail by the right manufacturer be a classic in 10 years?
> Which of the current FS designs have a shot at being a classic?


To no 1.: Breezers are classics right? Most of them are made at Hodaka, Taiwan (the same company that welds for Scott and a lot more)

to no 2: Think of a DeKerf, IF, SyCip, etc.

to no 3.: Think of a SC Heckler as allrounder or the Silk Ti or BowTi from Ibis/Castellano.


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## TruckeeLocal (Mar 5, 2002)

*Thanks for those kind words ...*



Kansasflatlander said:


> TrukeeLocal had a particularly insightful list of what makes a classic bike.


In the original post that you referenced I wrote that bikes will be considered a classic based on the following criteria. Now I've appended how I think the criteria applies today ...

the original manufacturer is out of business or taken over by an industry heavy weight
I think most of the current boutique bike manufacturers will go the same way, perhaps even Santa Cruz - hell Bontrager did
was originally built by a guy with a beer in one hand and a welding torch in the other
Well today it's wine and outsourced manufacturing except for a few holdouts like Jones, Chester, IF
is old enough that revisionist history has forgotton the flaws of the design
I'm not sure that we're ready for this but my guess is that the current suspension designs will look crazy in the future, and specifically single-pivot
cost more in its day than an equivalent currently available bike
Still means we're looking up-market for our future classics
is rare 'cause the market didn't want to buy the design
Well any of the small manufacturers probably qualify
was well enough built that it has survived the ravages of time and hasn't been sent to the dump (yet)
This seems to imply that aluminum designs won't make it if folks are correct that aluminum frames have a limited lifespan (I don't think a well built bike will brake)

So to respond to your points, assuming my input has any credence whatsoever ...

Will it be American made? 
Yes, probably, or at least marketted under an American name
Is it possible for a bike made in Taiwan to be a classic?
Yep especially when marketted under some cool American brand
Can a 2004 hardtail by the right manufacturer be a classic in 10 years?
I think the market has moved on and there's not much new in the HT market so I'm figuring tomorrows classics will be today's FS designs
Which of the current FS designs have a shot at being a classic?
I think that the current single-pivot designs might make it
Must the maker be one of the original greats, or are there new kings in the making?
There are always kings in the making based on the changing market place. For example yesterday's classics were designed for pretty tame conditions compared to what we're doing today. And tomorrow who knows what silliness we'll be participating in.
Could one of the large US manufacturers make the list? Consider that maybe a Trek or Cannondale could also close their US factories, creating a scramble for the US made versions.
Yes, especially if they suitably differentiate their product
What Boutique manufacturer's are likely to be bought, go out of business, retire?
All of them, 'cause history has proven that it always happens
Which singlespeeds will make the list?
It's too small a market. There just aren't enough Matt Chesters out there to gain any recognition, and Bianchis are too cheap, and it's too easy to just convert a good frame to a SS

So I'd suggest a few frames ...

Santa Cruz SuperLight (if the frames survive, although they are maybe a little cheap for classic status but there's lots of them out there)
Moots FS ('cause it's ridiculous to make a FS out of Ti in my book)
Ellsworths and Turners ('cause they're priced silly, and I've got one and my record has been pretty good so far - Ritchey and Bontrager)
Maverick (and the Klein version) 'cause it looks wonky but probably works better than we think
And one of the bat that hasn't appeared yet, to my knowledge - A Trek Composite FS

Over and out.


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## jh_on_the_cape (Jan 12, 2004)

*my guesses*

I would say matt chester, but a 26er. no longer made!
i also think jones bikes *might* become classics. i dunno.
I have YBB, and they havent changed that design in years and it's still so good. i am very proud of my 1999 merlin fat beat. YBB with the headshok. pretty unique. rides AWESOME. no longer made. but only going on 5 years old. may become classic? it's certainly worth less now than new. but maybe it will come back up? who knows. someday i will get a lefty for it!
I think a painted Ti IF will always be sought after.

in the retro department, maybe some of the first full-suspension 29ers would have some appeal? i dunno.

i think retro should be cheap and fun. i definitely back away when it gets costly.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*The only 29ers that will ever become classic....*

..are european or custom cyclocross frames. In my opinion throwing fat tires on 700c wheeles and adding suspension to the mix is a pretty dumb idea and hopefully that fad will die off soon. If you want to ride bigger wheels get a 'cross bike!

Now if anyone has a line on any 25" wheel stuff....

But more on topic I dont think there really is anything out there that will become classic. The heyday of MTB inovation is long gone and more than likely won't return. I think 80's and early 90's will be the only classic/collectable/retro MTB gear time period.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Hand made US built frames are a safe bet. Anything that isn't 'over produced'.
Sycip and pre-Klein Maverick's are good candidates. Jones might be another underground winner.
Christini AWD are also unique enough...

What about parts due to become classics?
I think 2002 XTR stuff will hold value well for people that hate the new stuff...
IMO, the aftermarket parts today just don't hold the 'cool factor' like the old stuff.


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## extralite (Jan 12, 2004)

*Ibis SilkTi*

Ibis SilkTi- in my view one of the ultimate future classic frames. Innovative design from a company no longer in business. True craftsmanship.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

extralite said:


> Ibis SilkTi- in my view one of the ultimate future classic frames. Innovative design from a company no longer in business. True craftsmanship.


I agree, that Ibis will be a classic, no matter what. It will be interesting to see if the Castellano Fango (AL version of that bike) makes it to the same status or not.


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

Shayne said:


> ..are european or custom cyclocross frames. In my opinion throwing fat tires on 700c wheeles and adding suspension to the mix is a pretty dumb idea and hopefully that fad will die off soon. If you want to ride bigger wheels get a 'cross bike!


Oh, MAN. You didn't just say that did you?

Yup. You did. 

Git yer head ottayerass Shayne. 'Cross bikes and 29"ers are as different as you can get. All you need to do is look at geometry to know. As someone who has obviously been in the business of bikes for years, that should be blatantly obvious. You can't tell me they don't handle. They do. And quite well, may I add.

Uhg. Why am I even doing this? You live on the retro board, and any thing that remotely changes or challenges your mountain bike world is immediately shot down as being "not correct".

The classics we're talking about here often are innovative or heralded in a new era in Mountain Biking[ahem, Rock shox, Aluminum, Slingshots, FS(Mantis anyone?), the list goes on]. This is EXACTLY what 29"ers are doing.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Ok, clue me in on the geometry changes*

What are the dfferences between a "29er" and a normal MTB frame besides larger wheels and the frame changes that are made to accomidate them?


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

Shayne said:


> What are the dfferences between a "29er" and a normal MTB frame besides larger wheels and the frame changes that are made to accomidate them?


Um, a 29er is a sail boat. So there is quite a bit that's different.



> .are european or custom cyclocross frames. In my opinion throwing fat tires on 700c wheeles...If you want to ride bigger wheels get a 'cross bike!


Here, you're equating a 'cross bike with a 29"er. They are utterly different creatures. 'Cross bikes began thier existence as Road bikes. We all know that. Through the years, they become more adapted to dirt through higher BB's, more frame clearance for mud and bigger tires, and mounts for cantilevers. It can certainly be argued(and I think quite successfully) that 'cross bikes are the REAL beginning of MTBing. That's another discussion though. 'Cross frames are typically made light for easy portaging. This leads to somewhat whippy frames that aren't all that fun off road. They're a handful, especailly in technical situations. ALL cross frames will NOT accept a 2.1" tire(the benchmark for qualifying as a 29" bike. Why? I dunno, it just is). So you CAN'T just take a cross bike and make it a 29"er.

Now, 29"ers are based on the standard mountain bike. Same 71-72° head angles, and 71-73° seat angles. Bottom brakets are typically the same as the 26" cousin. Mine is at roughly 12.5"(EBB). My wheel base on the Hunter is the same as my Pheonix. 43"(yes, I'm a BIG guy).

I'm not really seeing where your question is leading....you answered it yourself up top in the quotes. Oh, and with the legalization of 29" by the UCI, this _fad_ isn't going anywhere anytime soon methinks. Just like singlespeeds.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Although I agree with you that 29ers are a legitimate bike (although time will tell if they will become classics, or if they will go the way of the first 700c MTBs that came out 10 years ago), I do need to disagree on two points.



~martini~ said:


> It can certainly be argued(and I think quite successfully) that 'cross bikes are the REAL beginning of MTBing.


MTBs as an industry are a direct descendant of the Marin klunkers which were based on Cruiser bikes. CX bikes, like you said, are based on road bikes. Although both are ridden off road, and even though Gary Fisher raced a MTB in a CX race in 1980 or so, I'd say they are two completely different lineages. Maybe I'm too pedantic though.



~martini~ said:


> This leads to somewhat whippy frames that aren't all that fun off road.


Lastly, CX bikes are a blast to ride off road. They're not the best for rocky trails, but for twisty single track they are every bit as fun as a MTB, and climb much better. Maybe you need to try a different bike if you didn't like it.

I can't wait until next fall when CX race season starts up again!!!


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## timbercomp (Jan 16, 2004)

*Sycip of course*

Since i own two sycips (one 29" 10th ann and a 26" EBB) they are gonna have to get my vote. I would also say that any of the other "small" builder like in the Fat Tubes calendar are only gonna get "bigger". I really like what Paul Sadoff does with Rock Lobster. He is such a great guy and will talk forever about anything bike. We are expecting a new RL frame to come in next week and i cant wait to see it. I will try to post pics some time along with the Sycips if anyone is interested.
wESd
head grunt worker
www.firstflightbikes.com


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

laffeaux said:


> Although I agree with you that 29ers are a legitimate bike (although time will tell if they will become classics, or if they will go the way of the first 700c MTBs that came out 10 years ago), I do need to disagree on two points.


Time will tell. Personally, I think they will simply because I already own one. I'm admitidly biased on this subject.



> MTBs as an industry are a direct descendant of the Marin klunkers which were based on Cruiser bikes. CX bikes, like you said, are based on road bikes. Although both are ridden off road, and even though Gary Fisher raced a MTB in a CX race in 1980 or so, I'd say they are two completely different lineages. Maybe I'm too pedantic though.


I say potatoe, you say potato...  My answer is Grant Peterson's Underbike theory....



> Lastly, CX bikes are a blast to ride off road. They're not the best for rocky trails, but for twisty single track they are every bit as fun as a MTB, and climb much better. Maybe you need to try a different bike if you didn't like it.
> 
> I can't wait until next fall when CX race season starts up again!!!


Yeah, I know, I spoke(typed?) with out really thinking that one through. I've owned three ;cross bikes in my time(with another coming soon)[a Surly, a Gitane, a Trek, and a new Kona] and do know how much fun they are to ride and race.


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

TruckeeLocal said:


> There just aren't enough Matt Chesters out there to gain any recognition,
> 
> While i agree that there aren't that many Matt Chester frames, but quite a lot of the time that just makes them more valuable, not everyone had one.
> 
> ...


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

While i agree that there aren't that many Matt Chester frames, but quite a lot of the time that just makes them more valuable, not everyone had one.

It's quite the same with the way Cunninghams are now, Charlie didn't build to many frames either, and i think that is "one" of the reasons they are so special.

over and out
nate[/QUOTE]

I agree, but the Cunningham example is important to look at for other reasons. The geometry, material used (aluminum), and detail work on those bikes is all commonly accepted, almost cliche', for our time. However; when these bikes were built, that wasn't the case at all. Cunninghams significantly influenced design and aesthetics of mountain bikes for years. This is what makes a Cunningham a "classic" for me. To find tomorrow's classic mountainbike, today, I think will be very difficult. For one thing, it will be very hard to re-define the mountainbike as we know it today, like Cunningham did in the early eighties for his era. We are too "factionalized" as a group. Mountainbikes were much more homogenious back in the day. Everyone did everything on the same platform, riding-wise, that is. Now, there are so many things going on with just the dual suspension bikes that finding a "classic" will be very difficult to do. Not impossible- just harder to define. So, I would look for a bike that redefines a specific category of mountainbiking. Maybe we will see an overall ground breaking concept, but I'm doubtfull. My .02 cents worth.


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## ~martini~ (Dec 20, 2003)

Yeup. I'd love to see the Sycips!


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

Guitar Ted said:


> While i agree that there aren't that many Matt Chester frames, but quite a lot of the time that just makes them more valuable, not everyone had one.
> 
> It's quite the same with the way Cunninghams are now, Charlie didn't build to many frames either, and i think that is "one" of the reasons they are so special.
> 
> ...


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

*I don't know what will become a classic but...*

I don't know what will become a classic, I think the term is actually quite vague, but any bike that's well crafted, works well and is produced in relatively small numbers is a safe bet for being highly desirable in the future.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

*VPP bikes will become classics....*

just as soon as folks get back into wanting fully active designs again. Should be in two or three years if it follows the usual cycle.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

*rivendell atlantis*

not groundbreaking, inventive or future shaper like the first mtn bikes, the atlantis will be a classic because there are no more future shaping in mtn bikes: the golden era it's gone. 
the atlantis will be a classic because it became too expensive and it's too good for our economics driven life. why pay 1300 for a sublimely(?) simplemachine when you can have something worse and cheaper? so , the b ie is a freak and that's reason enough to be a classic. 
it doesn't represent our times or the times to come but times that are gone..


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

I think it's impossible to name a bike that will be a classic in the years to come. There's some really good bikes mentioned here and in all likelihood, they will be classics. The definition of classic will vary for each person. Bikes/frames/frame makers who will become classic will do so because they evoke passion in the eye of the beholder - and were probably made in a somewhat limited quantity. 

Someone posted a question about an early '90s Haro Extreme. Even though it is old, does it qualify as classic, retro or vintage? I have a unique perspective on it for various reasons, but I never considered it as classic or retro. It might be vintage because of the age. My Ibis is from the same era and is probably classic and vintage and retro, but it's just a bike to me - a really *****en bike that rides awesome, but still just a bike.

Eye of the beholder.


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## c0jones (Jan 23, 2004)

*Bianchi singlespeed mountain bikes*

There is something about the way each year has it's own anagram, and the gradual changes through the years...
I hope somebody has a full collection of them... all original & unridden.
Just keep them away from me, or I'll put internally geared hubs in them.

TruckeeLocal wrote:
"......Bianchis are too cheap, and it's too easy to just convert a good frame to a SS"

Model T, '32-'34 V-8 Fords, VW Beetles were quite affordable.

I see no lasting value in a deraileured bike converted to single speed.

C Jones


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## c0jones (Jan 23, 2004)

*Surly Karate Monkey*

Karate Monkeys are so versatile. v-brakes? cantilevers? disc? derailleurs? singlespeed? internal gears? anything goes!

They are liked and affordable... that brings more people into 29ers... that leads to more tire choices... without the KM, the 29ers could fade away .

The bent seatpost tube gives it some character too.

Shayne wrote: "The only 29ers that will ever become classic......are european or custom cyclocross frames."

C Jones


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

ssmike said:


> Someone posted a question about an early '90s Haro Extreme. Even though it is old, does it qualify as classic, retro or vintage? I have a unique perspective on it for various reasons, but I never considered it as classic or retro. It might be vintage because of the age. My Ibis is from the same era and is probably classic and vintage and retro, but it's just a bike to me - a really *****en bike that rides awesome, but still just a bike.
> 
> Eye of the beholder.


I agree with you about the Haro. It is old and therefore vintage but I would deffinately not consider is a "classic"


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

I think a lot of Nicolai bikes will be classics, due to their unique industrial look and rareness.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

@dam said:


> I think a lot of Nicolai bikes will be classics, due to their unique industrial look and rareness.


Yup, I think the first generation of all G-Boxx bikes like the Nicolai will be collectable for sure. I _really love_ love the Silk Ti bikes and the aluminum version is still available as a Castellano. and I'd love to have one. The first generation of laser-cut titanium/carbon fiber hybrid tubed bikes like Titus' Exo-Grid will be collector's items I believe, but it'll really cost ya to buy one (poor ROI). In general bike collecting isn't about speculating though because they're mostly poor investments but more about what you unadulteratedly love (IMHO anyway).


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## Polk (Jan 19, 2004)

laffeaux said:


> I agree, that Ibis will be a classic, no matter what. It will be interesting to see if the Castellano Fango (AL version of that bike) makes it to the same status or not.


Don't forget Ibis made the aluminum Ripley for one year before going out of business. The Fango is exactly the same, since John Castellano did the design work and owns the rights to it. I would post a picture of my 2001 "Pond Scum" (light green powdercoat) Ripley, but I don't have any electronic pictures.


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## Ernesto (Feb 17, 2004)

heres my 2c. I think theres a chance for some of the production aluminum rigs to become clasics. if they live that long. the 2000 and 2001 Norco Torrents with the American monocock/Easton Elite tube set are pretty sweet. some of the Orange HT's and the FOR four forty and four twenty are on my list. 

steelios like the .243 Racing frames and Surly Instigator.

for Squishies I think well tested bikes like the Turner 5 spot, SC Heckler, and Specilized Big Hits will always draw a crowd. some of the Kona line seem to have a stable following as well. 

what becomes clasic is going to be determend by the kids just getting into the sport, light duty trail bikes are sweet rigs for what they are, but there is so much more to it these days then just high zoot XC rigs.


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## Lagerhead (Mar 13, 2004)

How about anything by FTW? Anything with a cryptic little insider/buzzword sound to it seems to attract a high price at some point. (Or am I just confusing collectible with classic?)


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

*Ventana*

Mr. Sherwood Gibson may create a classic line overnight if he wakes up and decides he have had enough and go make golf clubs.

I know I will pick-up an X-5 next day, just to have it.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*This may not be a popular answer, but...*

... I think I'd throw a Blur in my list.

The Blur is light, plush and pedals well. I'm not a big fan of it personally, I think they are okay, but not totally my cupa tea, but it seems that everybody and their brother (and sister) has one and loves it.

So far, I only know of one person who owned one and gave it up. He decided that it was just not for him after riding it for around 9 months, and went back to his old frame, a Tracer. The pedal kickback issue bugged him mostly.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Heck, a cherry '67 bug...*

...is prolly worth more today than the day it was sold.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

pimpbot said:


> ...is prolly worth more today than the day it was sold.


If you bought it then or today, you probably paid too much.

I've never understood the infatutation. Any amount of money is too much to pay for 65 hp.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*65hp?*

Man, your bug must be souped up with headers and dual barrel Webers. The original 1.3 liter engine was more like 48. The later 70's 1.6l Superbugs were around 65. The Superbugs were actually quite fast. The advantage was that they weighed nothing.

I hear ya tho, I fully don't get why somebody would pay $3k for a bug as a daily driver. They are unsafe, polution spewing, uncomfortable as hell, can't haul anything kinda cars. They have kind of an appeal to some anyway, I couldn't put my finger on it. I would never buy one myself.

For $3k you could get a pretty nice late 80's/early 90's Jetta, Golf or Honda Accord or something in good shape with a sunroof and AC, gets better gas mileage, hauls more stuff, faster, handles better, safer, blah blah blah.


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## Biandon (Jan 12, 2004)

here's my guess

not sure about "classic"... but definitely a collectable


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

*$6000,00*



Biandon said:


> here's my guess
> 
> not sure about "classic"... but definitely a collectable


or is it 7000,00? not likely to increase value with age huh?
a silly bike imho.
i would buy a jones in a minute...www.jonesbikes.com


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

I think you have it there. Jones bikes are sure to be classics. I would sure love to have one.

http://www.jonesbikes.com/
http://www.speedgoat.com/vegas/IB04.asp?item=88
http://www.dirtragmag.com/articles/article.php?ID=625&category=features


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## Jeroen (Jan 12, 2004)

Biandon said:


> here's my guess
> 
> not sure about "classic"... but definitely a collectable


Perhaps collectable.. but the only thing "ferrari" there is on that bike.. is the name. They say the designed it.. Hmm.. perhaps only said or drew the shape of the front end. The main part on this FS frame comes from an other Italian framebuilder Scapin...

Just built for commercially issue's ... That's not what I would define to become a classic, imho.


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## erkan (Jan 18, 2004)

I think the Intense M1-SL will be a classic in time. The 2001 and later versions.

Thinking of picking up a frame and store in a closet. Or hang on a wall.

The frame is beautiful and the company is almost like Yeti was before.


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## erol/frost (Jan 3, 2004)

I agree with Erkan, and ad another vote for Ellsworth, especially the Dare.


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## jawry (Jan 22, 2004)

*Probably think i'm crazy, but....*

....the Catamount, especially the later ones with cro-mo front and alu rear.

A classic design, small american builder, long lasting and easily maintianed.

Now, don't all rush out and buy one - let me get one first!

cheers, Jawry


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## tonysong (Mar 5, 2004)

TruckeeLocal said:


> And one of the bat that hasn't appeared yet, to my knowledge - A Trek Composite FS
> Over and out.


If I'm understanding that last bullet point correctly, Trek has made a few fs carbon composite bikes through the years. Starting with the frighteningly bad 9500 circa 1993/4.........an OCLV main traingle mated to an OCLV swingarm (if I could find one, I would be moved to buying one of these just to hang on the wall). Moving forward, there was the ubiquitous Y-bike with the OCLV front 'triangle'. Currently they have the Fuel 100 with OCLV serving up duties even to the linkage plates.

If you consider all subsidiaries of the Trek empire to be Trek, then there was also the carbon boomed Klein Mantra circa 99 - 01.

As already stated in this thread, it's tough to call out the classics, but I sure will be fun to look back 10yrs from now.

Off topic (kind of), but has anyone ever seen the WTB titanium URT? The name escapes me, but damn..........I think that thing was ~4k for the frame alone back in its day........ugly as sin and probably rode like a Mantra, but I still want one!

Just came to mind, but how's this for classic?............American Magnesium circa '92?


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## Boy named SSue (Jan 7, 2004)

*Off topic (kind of), but has anyone ever seen the WTB titanium URT? The name escapes me, but damn..........I think that thing was ~4k for the frame alone back in its day........ugly as sin and probably rode like a Mantra, but I still want one!*

I think it was called the Bon Tempe. Ugly as hell and probably rode no better than the Mantra. I think there was a cheaper version that wasn't all ti. I remember the standard having been around a while before I heard of the crazy expensive version.

Best thing about the Trek 9500 was the wound rubber 'shock'. I knew someone with one of these. I felt really bad for the guy because he spent all of the money he made working a couple of summers on it and it blew. We held back on telling him how bad it was because we knew what he put into it.

If you're looking for a catamount, I think they can be found NOS for $300 frame or $700 complete. I've been seeing the ads recently. I forget where, but I think it was in Dirt Rag.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*Currently cool and later a classic*

Storck Organic Superlight
http://www.storck-bicycle.de/de/bikes/organic-ani.asp


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## Mackie (Dec 30, 2003)

*As a Catamount owner......*



jawry said:


> ....the Catamount, especially the later ones with cro-mo front and alu rear.
> 
> A classic design, small american builder, long lasting and easily maintianed.
> 
> ...


I disagree. This was a great bike, but it's no classic. It was one of many URTs at the time, and any esoteric value the steel front/alu rear combo had was far outweighed by the blowout $200 frames at the big online retailers at the end. 
C'mon - they have been $300 at Cambria for months now.

When current classics like Ibis went belly-up, there was a huge rush to grab up all of the remaining frames. I just don't see it with the Cats.

Again, no knock on the bike - I still ride mine & like it - but IMHO, it's not really a classic.


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## sloth (Mar 16, 2004)

*Merlin NewsBoy*

Aren't we forgetting Merlin? These early bikes are still amazing even today. Also there was a small company named Rhygin out of the Boston area. They made a Stainless Steel bike that was beautiful and (obviously) rare. They are now out of business. I think you really need to look at the people and bikes that truly made an impact to consider them future classics. I guess I'm getting ahead of myself since the Merlin is already a classic and not one of todays bikes.


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## erkan (Jan 18, 2004)

I think Brooklyn Machine Works bikes will be a future classic, especially the expensive dual suspension frames because todays kids are into "newstyle" mountainbiking (ie jumping, freeriding etc) and these bikes are something they like. 10 years from now on they will make posts on this forum like "remember the BMW TMX or Link bike" and people will reply "Oh yeah it was the best bike but it cost like 5000 dollars for the frame" and eventually someone will post a picture of his own TMX with 12 inch Monster T that has never been riden and serves as his collector bike that he takes photos of in his garden.


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## frankenbike (Mar 17, 2004)

*Retrotecs & Breezers*

I think Curtis' Retrotec frames are future collectible classics.

The steel Breezer hardtails I think are classics, if not already. The history and paintjob on those bikes are noteworthy.

Hopefully the Catamount becomes a classic, I am building one up as we speak.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*Just built and already a classic - Honda RN01*

The Honda RN01 is one of today's bikes that is already a classic in my mind. Very revolutionary.

http://world.honda.com/news/2003/2030203.html
http://www.mbaction.com/detail.asp?id=971

1) Over 100K to build one bike
2) No deraillers / rumored infinate shifting ratios in the gearbox tranny on the bike - (yes I did say "gearbox tranny" in the same sentence as "bike")
3) 6 mechanic/engineers hover over the bike to maintain the inner workings at world cup races (Imagine a company spending big money on a mountainbike team in 2004???)
4)Already the design has proven to be good enough to win races at a world cup level by Greg Minnaar

Whether or not this technology ever truly replaces derailleurs (doubt it) or stays around for more seasons than thermoplastics (I believe this idea is here to stay) is yet to be seen, but one thing is for sure . . . it's innovative and is a classic already that will be talked about in bike circles for many years to come.

A shout out to the Morgans at BCD, the GT Engineers, and later Carl Nicolai who I believe to be indirect influencers and the forunners to this innovative Honda design. These builders recognized that the modern derailleur left something to be desired for DH riding, many years before Honda turned the bike world upside down with revolutionary design.

Clearly Honda has done something special and completely new here from an engineering design perspective, but the concept of the "removing" the derailleur on DH bikes was first implemented by these other guys. Honda just has a better mouse trap in the works.

-mtnwing
www.carbonbicycles.com
www.bikehistory.com
Carbonbikes(at)mountainbikes(dot)net

*$* - Currently looking to purchase a:
Miyata Elevation 12,000 FS bike
Intense M-1 - 1994 era Machpherson Strut era frame or bike


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## erkan (Jan 18, 2004)

That MBA hyper article about the Honda reminds me of one article I read in MBA in mid 90'ies about the Showa forks. "Move over rover and let Showa takeover" they hyped the Showa forks probably as much or more than they hyped AMP bikes. Ive never seen a Showa MTB fork on the european/american market.. maybe thats whats going to happen to the Honda to.. 

---------

I think the Catamount will be remembered but it wont be a classic, and neither will the Y Treks be 

IMHO Retrotec, maybe.. If you take away the cruiser inspired lines of the Retrotec frames, will they still be considered a collectible classic or will it drown in the sea of custom steel frames in USA?


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## RetroG (Jan 16, 2004)

*Bridgestone MB-0...nm*

ksksksksks


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*Showa mtb suspension*



erkan said:


> That MBA hyper article about the Honda reminds me of one article I read in MBA in mid 90'ies about the Showa forks. "Move over rover and let Showa takeover" they hyped the Showa forks probably as much or more than they hyped AMP bikes. Ive never seen a Showa MTB fork on the european/american market.. maybe thats whats going to happen to the Honda to..
> QUOTE]
> 
> Funny you mention Showa forks . . . the Honda bike is running Showa suspension forks/rear shock . . .
> ...


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## erkan (Jan 18, 2004)

Yes thats whats so funny, even though they had badass forks the only forks I saw on the market where crap forks. The forks showed in MBA was like nothing seen before, the stanchions where plated carbon tubes and the hi-end fork weighted under 3 pounds. They complained it was a bit flexy but liked it a lot.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*Stick a "fork" in it . . .done before they started*



erkan said:


> Yes thats whats so funny, even though they had badass forks the only forks I saw on the market where crap forks. The forks showed in MBA was like nothing seen before, the stanchions where plated carbon tubes and the hi-end fork weighted under 3 pounds. They complained it was a bit flexy but liked it a lot.


That sounds like an interesting article. I'd like to find that one some day.

Reminds me of the of the "slightly less successful but equally rare" Penske fork that Yeti race team debuted with some fanfare. Anyone remember that beauty . . .

Flex characterists not unlike angel hair pasta noodles as I recall. It did turn well when you applied the disc brake though at speed. . . . if only all the turns were left handers!

-mtnwing


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## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

mtnwing said:


> erkan said:
> 
> 
> > That MBA hyper article about the Honda reminds me of one article I read in MBA in mid 90'ies about the Showa forks. "Move over rover and let Showa takeover" they hyped the Showa forks probably as much or more than they hyped AMP bikes. Ive never seen a Showa MTB fork on the european/american market.. maybe thats whats going to happen to the Honda to..
> ...


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*Miyata with the Show*



Elevation12 said:


> mtnwing said:
> 
> 
> > erkan said:
> ...


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## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

Unfortunately I do´t have an Elevation 12,000 and if I owned one I probably wouldn´t sell it. 

I know the bike under the link you posted. It has been sold on ebay a couple of months ago. I don´t no the price anymore, but it wasn´t very cheap. I guess in Germany Koga´s are normally more expensive than in Holland. Also the ´94 SkyExpension were fitted with the Showa. That was the last year because in ´95 the SkyExpansion came with Rond HydroPro. That year´s frame was really beautifull, red fading on front, blue fading on the rear. Supurb! The ´94 SkyExpension frame divers at some points from the ´93 RDG-S. The RDG-S had a Hardlite rear in blue, where the ´94 SE had a Alloy rear in silver. Also the ´93 RDG-S had an significant higher head tube. Probably there will be some other minor differences, but I don´t know more. The complete bikes were both fitted with XTR. Furthermore the ´93 was equiped with a lot Syncros-stuff where the ´94 came with a lot ITM parts. 

I own two carbon Koga´s from the same era, both hardtail. One is maybe the same as you own. It´s blue with a polished alloy reartriangle. This one is an ´93 TrailRunnerCarbolite. The other bike a have is an ´93 SkyRunnerCarbolite. It´s purple and has an carbon front and rear. Both bikes a really very well built up. I also have an ´95 SkyCarbolite frame. Carbon front, titanium back. Very nice !

Maybe H-Ball wants to sell you one of his. I ones read that he never sells, but I have seen some pictures of his garage and can hardly imagine that he can´t miss one of those very many.... Maybe you should try. Good luck !

I will let you know when I see an Elevation12,000, RDG-S or SkyExpension (´94/´94) for sale.


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## Elevation12000 (Jun 16, 2004)

Sorry, I went a bit of topic. I will give my vision on the tomorrow´s Classic topic.

First: Nowadays hardtails differ not very much from the more refined hardtail of late early nineties. So in fact as classic they have to compete with FAT´s and Yeti´s. To be honest: I suspect that will become very difficult for nowadays hardtails. FAT and Yeti were the top in that era, an era that is widely considered as being the ´Hay Days´ of traditional mountainbiking. Maybe we´ll see the SyCip brand gain enough momentum to deal with that, but I think it will be one of very few, if not the only !

It´s not that I wan´t to say that it is impossible for nowadays hardtails to become a classic, but if they become most of them will probably end up as classic in shadow of much greater classics.

Second: I guess also a lot of FS bikes are suffering under this ´post mid ninties syndrome´. This because they are more or less in the same market. Besides this many of them are built in large series in low wages countries. The generous usage of alloy and all their pivot points etc. make they are really screaming; ¨I will end up on the rubbish dump in a few years¨. Often their finishing isn´t breathtaking (esspecially if it is a complete bike) and the word ´sophisticated´ applies to only a few. Fortunately not everybody likes sophisticated. Nevertheless I will forecast that upscale ´here to stay´ brands as Intense, Ventana, Ellsworth.... will have a kind of a future as classic. But remember: In the shadow ! 

About ten years: Will there be bikes that stay out of the reach of the shadow ? Yes, I believe so. Already mentioned BMW is a good candidate. Furthermore: 24, Hood, Goat, Endless etc. They simple differ to much from Yo´s, Yeti´s, Mountain Goats.... They belong to a different marketplace and another generation of bikers. As I´m writing this I´m almost feeling myself very old... Fortunately that is not justified. I like BMW´s and Hood Bikes really rulez! I wished I owned one. In fact the only thing that differs me from the current Dirt-generation is that I won´t consider swapping my Yo for it. I like it that way.


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## split (Jan 12, 2004)

*Serottas?*

I'll have to give a vote to Serotta mountain bikes, only because I have one, and their main focus is on road bikes, plus they are all custom. I was told that after they built my bike, they stopped offering steel hardtails. I guess I got the very last Odile .

Another builder to watch is Vanilla Cycles. Simply beautiful. Artwork, deserving to be in a gallery. Definitelly on my 'to-do' list.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*Hot Tubes are Classics*



split said:


> I'll have to give a vote to Serotta mountain bikes, only because I have one, and their main focus is on road bikes, plus they are all custom. I was told that after they built my bike, they stopped offering steel hardtails. I guess I got the very last Odile .
> 
> Another builder to watch is Vanilla Cycles. Simply beautiful. Artwork, deserving to be in a gallery. Definitelly on my 'to-do' list.


Here's a vote for Hot Tubes custom bikes. www.hottubes.com

Toby Stanton is one of those smaller builders, but his attention to detail is bar none and steel is his artistic medium of choice, though he's not afraid to blend a little new with the old on ocassion. He's know well among the racing circles having built bikes for the likes of Franky and Mark McCormack, and many other top US and international pros. He's also an incredibly brilliant trainer/team director. Kind of a cross between Johan Bruneel, Bjarnis Riis and Chris Carmichael.

He runs the most dominant junior cycling development team in the states "Hot Tubes" and formerly ran the Saturn Junior team. These juniors win international races every year in Europe and are respected internationally as a top team. Did I mention he paints bikes too with the best of them. Last year's painting schedule including last year's Tyler Hamilton Cervelo for the Tour! This guy epitomizes the heart of US old school craftsmanship and true bike building knowledge. He truly builds "custom" steel bikes down to every measurement and angle and he's got special touches and pride in the bikes he produces that seperate them from other steel bikes and builders. Definately classics in my mind.

-mtnwing


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*Calfee's are modern classics too!*

I'll also give a vote for Craig Calfee and Calfee Design bikes. Yeah I know he's not doing mtb's but as a US frame builder I think he'll be remembered for many years to come as a true pioneer for carbon bikes that are now so prevelant in road and mtb. I sure wish he'd do a mountain bike!

www.calfeedesign.com

-mtnwing
www.carbonbicycles.com


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## erkan (Jan 18, 2004)

Calfee Design = Future classic.

Hot Tubes, where is the pictures of the frames on the site?!


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

*A classic why?*



pimpbot said:


> ... I think I'd throw a Blur in my list.
> 
> The Blur is light, plush and pedals well. I'm not a big fan of it personally, I think they are okay, but not totally my cupa tea, but it seems that everybody and their brother (and sister) has one and loves it.
> 
> So far, I only know of one person who owned one and gave it up. He decided that it was just not for him after riding it for around 9 months, and went back to his old frame, a Tracer. The pedal kickback issue bugged him mostly.


There's the failure of the original designer, so another one is redundant. I DO think that Intense is going to take a beating if the VPP design doesn't maintain the high standing it currently does. I wonder if Intense is more concerned with brand identification (distancing itself from the FSR patent), and image (some sorta rockstar bs, glad I didn't buy one), than it is with the bikes it makes.

...and a quick plug for my bike, the Titus Switchblade, because it was one of the first efficient longer travel trailbikes, before there were trailbikes. And it is such a good looking bike, nice powercoated front sections, and that beefy polished rear end.

Is the original FSR a classic? What REALLY makes a bike a classic? Some neat little tidbit, that they're rare and very expensive, or is it the whole package, that it's a great bike? Is it only the Ferrari Daytonas that make classic status, or do you accept the Datsun/Nissan Z as well?

If I haven't pissed enough people off with the Intense bit, I'm going to go all out here. Why would a single speed be a classic? I was thinking today, while out riding, that single speeds aren't really "mountain bikes," they're somewhere between BMX and MTB, but neither. From what I remember about the history of MTB's, it was the addition of a derailleur along with the fat tires, moto handlbars and brake levers that changed those cruisers into MTB's.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

richde said:


> There's the failure of the original designer, so another one is redundant. I DO think that Intense is going to take a beating if the VPP design doesn't maintain the high standing it currently does.
> 
> Is the original FSR a classic? What REALLY makes a bike a classic? Some neat little tidbit, that they're rare and very expensive, or is it the whole package, that it's a great bike? Is it only the Ferrari Daytonas that make classic status, or do you accept the Datsun/Nissan Z as well?


I'll have to pipe up since I own both a Blur and a Datsun Z (which I keep saying I'm going to sell).

Will the Blur be a classic? Only time will tell, but it certainly has a lot of things going for it - hype, nice ride, popular, desireable, etc., etc. Maybe it will be a classic, and maybe not. Regardless, it's a fun bike to ride!

Is the Datusn a classic? That's easy, the '69-'72 Datsun 240Z is a classic in the US (foreign markets excluded, as their cars were different and remainded "classic" longer). Arguably everything after '72 is not a classic, and never will be IMO. The '73 was not a performance car, and the '74 260 was only slightly better. The '75-'78 280 was a step in the right direction, and might have some speical status one day. The ZX series cars were no longer sports cars, and as such have little value in my book.

That makes the 240 classic? They represent the pinnacle of the true sports car. Datsun built the car that the Brits would have built had then been able to - only better. Other than having a top (which technically makes it a GT), the 240 had to be the "best" and unfortunately "last" sports car of the era. Super Cars came later but the idea of "sport" was gone, and "luxury" prevailed. The 240 started the downfall by offering nicities such as a radio, power antenna, heater, windows, etc. In by-gone days these were often left off of sports cars.

The same applies to bikes. A classic is either the first or best of the design for a specific bike type. Someone else said that the XC hardtail will probably not produce anymore classics. That's probably right. Can the design of a Bonty, Fat, Klein, Ibis, etc. be impoved? Maybe urban assault hardtails from today will be classics. But for XC, can the designs from the early '90s until today really be improved (other than accepting longer travel forks, bikes today are no different than 10 years ago).

The next breed of classics (if there are any) will have to be full-suspension bikes. That's the next place where "firsts" and "bests" will come from. That's not to say that great and desireable hardtail bikes aren't being produced, but they're more like to 280s than 240s.

My $0.02.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

laffeaux said:


> A classic is either the first or best of the design for a specific bike type.


Well said. Theoretically, both the Outland and SC VPP could qualify as potential candidates. So could the Hannebrink Burro bike too for that matter.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

laffeaux said:


> A classic is either the first or best of the design for a specific bike type . . .


I'd agree your logic regarding the criteria for a classic.

Regarding the Blur though I'd have to say Outland was the first, not the Santa Cruz Blur.
http://www.firstflightbikes.com/1998_Outland_VPP.htm
They deserve the credit in my mind.

Maybe the Blur is the best of the design (although I'd give the nod to Intense on that criteria).

Blur's are definately nice bikes but their success alone may destine them to be less of a classic because so many have been made, purchased and thus it dilutes the mystic in my mind.

That brings me to point that a few other criteria should be added to the list for the making of "classic".

1) availability/scarcity can be a partial factor
2) My opinion here - the "worst" of a specific design also has the potential to be a classic if it's widely remembered for this.
3) any features or designs that make for a very different, unique, and memorable creation

And yes a 240Z is definately a Classic! Keep it unless your crazy!

-mtnwing


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*Future HT classics*



mtnwing said:


> I'd agree your logic regarding the criteria for a classic.
> 
> 1) availability/scarcity can be a partial factor
> 2) My opinion here - the "worst" of a specific design also has the potential to be a classic if it's widely remembered for this.
> ...


Regarding hardtails. I think there are a few modern era ones that standout though I think they are still in the shadows of the greats like the Cunninhams, Kleins, Yeti, Fats, etc.

Lodestar - first that I'm aware of to do a magnesium tubed frame. Ultralight and pretty rare.

Also give the node the Arrow Aeremet frame (spelling?).

Also Univega Boralyn frames .

All these utilized some very unique materials and signified companies trying to push the envelope. They are also pretty rare. In my mind they fit the bill for future classics.

-mtnwing


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

mtnwing said:


> Lodestar - first that I'm aware of to do a magnesium tubed frame. Ultralight and pretty rare.


Scary light. Too light IMO. Had one that Lodestar sent for evaluation and it just plain scared me being so light - didn't break, but didn't inspire confidence.


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## erkan (Jan 18, 2004)

Regarding Intense IMHO the first gen M1 bikes to the latest models are classics since they have been raced by lots of people in various teams, even Tomac raced on the M1 in one point in his carer.
We will see if the M1 will become a collectible since I suspect they are very common in USA.

For the rest of Intense's models I dont think there are anything special with them really. They mess up the graphics to much, change it every year it seems. And they change models to often. Tazer, Uzzi DH and such are all gone soon or now.


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## EIBfan (Feb 13, 2004)

Kansasflatlander said:


> A few weeks back I enjoyed a thread discussing the criteria for defining a classic bike. TrukeeLocal had a particularly insightful list of what makes a classic bike. It got me to wondering which of today's bikes will be treasured 10-15 years from now. Though today's technology have yielded bikes that are the best riding ever, are today's bikes like many of the modern cars produced, souless numbers that will be discarded after something better comes along?
> 
> I am all tapped out on my bike purchases, but if I was convinced that there was a bike made today that I would regret not owning a few years from now, I might muster up enough budget to spring for one. My main ride is a Heckler. Though it almost has a cult following, I don't see it being a classic in 15 years.
> 
> ...


Titus, Intense, Merlin and especially Ventana
These are bikes manufactured with so much attention to detail that people will seek after them in the future. In 10 to 15 years, today's technology will be obsolete. What will attract future interest are the features that made the bike stand out, above the rest. Look at the fillet brazed Richey's, these are classics today because of the extra steps taken to build them then.


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## flyingsuperpetis (Jan 16, 2004)

Yep, a classic bikebuilder to me is what makes a classic artist or musician, either being the first to do something truly unique and innovative, or being the one who did it so well people stand are still in awe generations later. A select few of those are the true masters, who can claim both. It only adds to the lore if they simply shut down, and didn't sell the name off and bastardize the brand, but that's a pretty rare feat in mtbing, what with the starving artist lifestyle only going so far. Either or all of those apply to the guys like the Cunninghams (both of em), Brent Trimble, John Parker, Chris Chance, Ritchey, Breeze, Bontrager, Ross Schafer, Scot Nicol, Gary Klein... Ah, you know, the usuals.
I think a lot of what's on the market now would be hard to consider a classic, as so much of it has been done before, less some gaudy graphics & quite as much pocketing. Also, when it was done before, it was generally done by the inventor (& then everyone else the next year) which implies a certain amount of authenticity, as looking at the bike conjures a fairly accurate image of the same handful of guys who designed, tested, rode & revised every last detail of the thing, each hunched over it at some point sweating away to make sure you wind up with nothing short of a work of art. "Units" falling off an assembly line into boxes 2400 per day while minimum wage factory-hopping temps grumble and count the minutes till the next cigarette break somehow doesn't justify the same price tag (even though they often carry it), nor the weight that the term classic implies. Beside passion, I think it's a sort of integrity & ethic. The bikes that are maybe a little more honest about input = output probably stand a better chance of attaining "classic", not that they'd probably care, though, cause by the time something's deemed a classic, the company's usually a goner. Passion in, passion out. Garbage in, garbage out. Art bikes, not Kmart bikes.


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## flyingsuperpetis (Jan 16, 2004)

Ah yes. I'll attest to that. Craig Calfee makes a wicked carbon frame, not to be outdone in any way. They also make a couple of the most expensive carbon frames you''ll never see their name on. More or less specifically, under the thin thin paint of several tour bikes of much media attention these last years...

Also, don't think an mtb by them is too far out... there's been a bit of flirting (tandem & cyclocross+ frames), and there's some sincere interest from Craig. We'll see...


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## erkan (Jan 18, 2004)

CarbonFrames built some carbon MTB's. I think Bob Roll had one with Z graphics (at least in an MTB ad). I have a pic of an Onyx E-frame from them on my harddrive, think it came from here, definitely collector bikes.. .


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## flyingsuperpetis (Jan 16, 2004)

Ohhh yeah, I remember that one in the mags, that dizzying cosmetic weave, and the wild gussetting really made it hard to grasp what was going on there. Couldn't tell what was flat & what was round. Beeeeeefy.

Calfee was Carbonframes, for anyone wondering.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*Intense, single speed rubish, Foes, and 3D Racing*



richde said:


> 1) I DO think that Intense is going to take a beating if the VPP design doesn't maintain the high standing it currently does. I wonder if Intense is more concerned with brand identification (distancing itself from the FSR patent), and image (some sorta rockstar bs, glad I didn't buy one), than it is with the bikes it makes.
> 
> 2) I was thinking today . . . , that single speeds aren't really "mountain bikes," . . . From what I remember about the history of MTB's, it was the addition of a derailleur along with the fat tires, moto handlbars and brake levers that changed those cruisers into MTB's.


1) I'd have to differ on the intense comments. They were one of the first to push monoque designs that held up under DH abuse and certainly the first DH bike with "adjustable geometry". To me Jeff Steber was always pushing the edge on designs and truly understood the needs of the racer. They did a 5-6 inch travel bike back in 93/94. Way before it's time!

Maybe the current generation of M-1's isn't much to write home about, but back in the day, they were the cat's meow. That's the whole reason every big time pro from Tomac, to Lopes, to Donnavan, to Henderson, to Carter, to Palmer, etc, etc, etc has ridden their frames to victory under nearly every big bike brand sticker under this planet. Jeff Steber is the closest builder we've seen to John Parker and probably ever will. Even their 4 bar designs were "way better" than Specialized's implementation for many many years. It's only been the last 2 or 3 years that Specialized built a DH bike that came close to the original M-1 four bar designs.

Jeff's move to the VPP technology is just a further attribute to his willingness to keep looking for something better. He was also slow to release one as he wasn't going to release something new just because of Buzz. He wanted to make sure it actually added value, and for a time was on the the fence while he refined the technology.

2) As for single speeds I'm on board with your comments although maybe the fact that they are exactly what they shouldnt' be, is precisely the reason enough they should be remembered?

Kind of a MTB rebel or revolution if you will - the anti movement. Out with the old and in with the new. That said, I don't think they are really all that. I think a derailler should be mandatory to call it an MTB. That's more in line with the design guidelines of the founding fathers and the roots of the sport. Must have some "Double D's" to be fun to me!

One more nomination for a future classic - early Foes bikes! Brent Foes makes some of the nicest American DH bikes on the planet.

And how about 3D Racing? Anything Chris Herting touches ought to be a classic eh?

-mtnwing


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

mtnwing said:


> erkan said:
> 
> 
> > That MBA hyper article about the Honda reminds me of one article I read in MBA in mid 90'ies about the Showa forks. "Move over rover and let Showa takeover" they hyped the Showa forks probably as much or more than they hyped AMP bikes. Ive never seen a Showa MTB fork on the european/american market.. maybe thats whats going to happen to the Honda to..
> ...


----------



## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

mtnwing said:


> 1) I'd have to differ on the intense comments. They were one of the first to push monoque designs that held up under DH abuse and certainly the first DH bike with "adjustable geometry". To me Jeff Steber was always pushing the edge on designs and truly understood the needs of the racer. They did a 5-6 inch travel bike back in 93/94. Way before it's time!
> 
> Maybe the current generation of M-1's isn't much to write home about, but back in the day, they were the cat's meow. That's the whole reason every big time pro from Tomac, to Lopes, to Donnavan, to Henderson, to Carter, to Palmer, etc, etc, etc has ridden their frames to victory under nearly every big bike brand sticker under this planet. Jeff Steber is the closest builder we've seen to John Parker and probably ever will. Even their 4 bar designs were "way better" than Specialized's implementation for many many years. It's only been the last 2 or 3 years that Specialized built a DH bike that came close to the original M-1 four bar designs.
> 
> ...


I was referring to the company since '02, when I was in the market for a new bike. Yes, the M1 is the heat, no question about that. But overall, compared to their most direct competiton (IMHO), Titus, Intense might have the better downhill bike, but I like the style of Titus as a company more, and I think between the XC offerings of both companies, Intense comes up a little short. They seem to be more race orientated, while Titus is more "ride" orientated.

Foes definately is up there. The first to use the curnett valve shocks. I assume Mountaincycles would already be considered a classic? They were making long travel bikes before the market was even a glimmer in a framebuilder's eye.

To include singlespeeds, it's the Redline Monocog, hands down. For the same reason the original stumpy would be a classic. It might not be the bike that started the "revolution" but it made it easily accessable.

more on singlespeeds, it seems like if you're going that route, stylewise, you should have V-brakes and rigid forks. Although it can be easily argued that hyd disks are actually simpler than V-brakes, they are also heavier. Anyways, I've ridden a rigid bike, and wouldn't want to go that route again.


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## c0jones (Jan 23, 2004)

*Redline Monocog?*

"To include singlespeeds, it's the Redline Monocog, hands down"

Isn't the Monocog's low price related to the fact it doesn't have room for a 135mm rear hub? jens0nusa had them (frame&fork) on clearance for $115 for a long time before they found buyers.

C Jones


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## dirtpaws (Jan 2, 2004)

*Jeff Jones*

I say Jeff Jones' creations have a high liklihood of being classics.
His vertically compliant 3D spaceframes are like nothing else.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

dirtpaws said:


> I say Jeff Jones' creations have a high liklihood of being classics.
> His vertically compliant 3D spaceframes are like nothing else.


Laffeaux and I met and talked to Jeff at Sea Otter this year. We also saw his stuff up at Velo Swap.
The guy is extremely intelligent and his attention to detail is amazing.
I'd say his stuff is a good bet. At the very least, it's different.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*lord of the triple rings!*



Rumpfy said:


> Laffeaux and I met and talked to Jeff at Sea Otter this year. We also saw his stuff up at Velo Swap.
> The guy is extremely intelligent and his attention to detail is amazing.
> I'd say his stuff is a good bet. At the very least, it's different.


Yeah that's probably one of the first "new" hardtails I've seen in a long long time that I can honestly say I'm tempted to add to my collection. Not sure if it's the bike alone or the mysterious wizard like beard Jeff Jones sports like a pro, but either way there's something intriguing in the air around those knobbies . . .

Gandor & perhaps even Cunnigham would be proud of the welding wizardy 'round those parts of the Oregonian Shire.

-mtnwing


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## Trevor! (Dec 23, 2003)

Phill Wood Piss Off (Already a classic)
Chris King Hubs and Headsets
Ellsworth Truth (I don't care about the reputation issues, the bike is a great piece of machine)


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## floibex (Feb 7, 2004)

... custom builders like ted wojcik, rick hunter, matt chester , jeff jones to name a frew.

companys like santa cruz, maverick, voodoo cycles

big players like specialized, trek and giant.

from europe definitely *florian wiesmann* (it's all written in german there) this guy is using only steel and titanium. weight of a xc suspension full steel frame w.o. shock = 2.120 grams!

he only builds 40 - 50 frames a year and quality, details and workmanship are incredible.

proudwiesmannowner 
flo

... 11.8 kg ...


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## icegeek (Feb 16, 2004)

Interesting skimming, but I'm a bit surprised at the oversight of AMP Bikes for classic full suspension bikes. Hell, they're classics already. They're the designs that finally worked and that everybody copies now.


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## dirtpaws (Jan 2, 2004)

*If "wacky" becomes a hot category for collectors...*

Then I nominate Sheldon Brown's split personality bike.


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## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

*Too many people still remember the rough edges*



icegeek said:


> Interesting skimming, but I'm a bit surprised at the oversight of AMP Bikes for classic full suspension bikes. Hell, they're classics already. They're the designs that finally worked and that everybody copies now.


Watch E-Bay to confirm it too. The forks are still getting a good dollar amount. A Mint F-4 carbon should be able to push $400 or almost what it sold for new, but the bikes don't always hold their value as well. Moreso when they don't have the Amp forks on 'em.

Amp was, and to a point still is, a niche group. Three different camps on this one.. loved 'em, hated 'em, and never heard of 'em.

I've run their forks for several years, still have on on the hardtail. Great fork for XC. Never had any issues with flex (and I'm 200 pounds and running lightweight hubs, skewers and spokes.  ) But have heard many complaints about the rear shocks. Dead simple and easy to fix, but not known as a durabilty item.

If it came down to it, I'll take a Amp Fork on the front of a year or two later Titus. The Amp frames may have been at the bleeding edge, and the ones that followed (closely) in their footsteps had just a touch more refinement. And I like Amp stuff too. Amp designed stuff that was for a lightweight XC (race) bike. And it shows through in implementation. Accept that and you'll be very happy.

JmZ


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## Big Bad Wolf (Jun 4, 2004)

Kansasflatlander said:


> A few weeks back I enjoyed a thread discussing the criteria for defining a classic bike. TrukeeLocal had a particularly insightful list of what makes a classic bike. It got me to wondering which of today's bikes will be treasured 10-15 years from now. Though today's technology have yielded bikes that are the best riding ever, are today's bikes like many of the modern cars produced, souless numbers that will be discarded after something better comes along?
> 
> I am all tapped out on my bike purchases, but if I was convinced that there was a bike made today that I would regret not owning a few years from now, I might muster up enough budget to spring for one. My main ride is a Heckler. Though it almost has a cult following, I don't see it being a classic in 15 years.
> 
> ...


How about this one? It has been around virtually unchanged for at least 10 years. So it is a living classic already.


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## Bigfoot (Jan 16, 2004)

*Burro ain't a Hanebrink*



ssmike said:


> Well said. Theoretically, both the Outland and SC VPP could qualify as potential candidates. So could the Hannebrink Burro bike too for that matter.


The Burro was designed by Greg Rawuka. Dan Hanebrink made the ET (Extreme Terrain) bikes with the ATV tires. The only thing they have in common other that big tires, is that they're both in Big Bear.


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## t2p (Jul 22, 2004)

Difficult ...... almost impossible to define 'classic' .......... so a list of future 'classic' bikes is even more impossibile ............. but what-the-heck ........... 
.
When I think hardtail, I think steel .......... Ritchey, Bontrager, Fat Chance........ Breeze quickly come to mind.

'Over the Counter Classics' - Bridgestone and the Spec Stumpy are two more common neat 'classic's ......
.
When I think full suspension, AMP immediately comes to mind ..... despite the many ills and issues with the AMP design and execution, almost everything else was an overweight, unfunctional 'toad' in comparision BITD ........ 
.
I also think Klein when I think classic. It was THE high-end bike to have. There was little or nothing else quite like a Klein BITD.
.
Some of the bikes mentioned in this thread are/were neat .... but their limited availability and numbers put them in a different category ....... keep them out of what I would consider a traditional 'classic' category ......
.
When I think 'classic' components, many come to mind ....... but the first gen XTR tops the list - the best looking stuff Shimano put on an off road bike and to this day still very desirable ............. Suntour XC Pro MicroDrive also comes to mind ....... or the first cantilever brake that really grabbed me: Avid Tri Align or whatever they were known as ....


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## t2p (Jul 22, 2004)

tl1 said:


> I don't know what will become a classic, I think the term is actually quite vague, but any bike that's well crafted, works well and is produced in relatively small numbers is a safe bet for being highly desirable in the future.


.
I don't think I agree with the 'produced in relatively small numbers' criteria for 'classic' ..... in fact, I feel this would be almost contradictory ........
.
it is tough to be a 'classic' when a bike/frame is so rare that just about no one has seen one .......... rare, unique, exotic .... maybe .... (or yes) ......... but classic ? And the demand for some of these rare, unique bikes will be limited ............ because the knowledge of their existance is ......... limited ........


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## Bombardier (Jul 13, 2005)

Since the first time I saw one, I've always figured the SantaCruz Nomad would eventually become a sought-after, classic bike. I thought the same thing when the Ibis Mojo was released. IMHO, both of those bikes helped bring about the current trend in flowing, organic frame designs & the use of monocoque front triangles.


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## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

Cococino's will become classics. Steve Garro builds an amazing product.


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## Bombardier (Jul 13, 2005)

gm1230126 said:


> Cococino's will become classics. Steve Garro builds an amazing product.


Agreed..... although it's bordering on insult to call Steve's art, "product". 

I've been diggin' his work since seeing that red 29'er SS in DirtRag. :thumbsup:


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## Howley (Nov 23, 2005)

*Wes Williams IS a Classic*

IMHO-
http://www.willitsbikes.com/Willits.html
:thumbsup:


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Classic - Something rare and unique will always be considered a classic. Think of Merlin and their bikes sure they only have a few out there, but how many Merlin Newsboys have you seen recently? A Jeff Jones is a classic in its own right. IF, Syclip, Kish, almost any small builder as long as they were well known and had a following.

Then you will have the common bikes that were once highly regarded (yet affordable) forgotten then a resurgence of interest. This is the group of bikes that most interest me.


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## mojo_matic (Jul 15, 2007)

No mention of Ted Wojcik? 

As for the 29 movement, Soulcraft should be taken into consideration.

Ho-humm production, I would love to find is Trek SL-300 (last of the high end Y-framed bikes). Hard to frown upon the Trek OCLV 9.8 and 9.9 hardtails.


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## dogsloweverywhere (Apr 10, 2006)

My pennies worth:
I am in the process of putting up on eBay a Pace RC301 with the original Pace 80mm forks, the bike with the square butted ali tubing, so no, it doesn't have to be a US bike IMHO.
However, I am not quite sure if you'd consider it a Retro / Classic / Vintage bike.
That's for the buying public out there to decide.
Looking at my lynskey-made Ti29er bike that they manufactured for On-One at the end of last year with renewed fiscal interest after your comments!
Tim


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

Sevens and Indys. And Wojicks. Any bike made within 200 miles of Boston.


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## fjyang (May 4, 2007)

icegeek said:


> Interesting skimming, but I'm a bit surprised at the oversight of AMP Bikes for classic full suspension bikes. Hell, they're classics already. They're the designs that finally worked and that everybody copies now.


Can't agreed more, AMP bikes especially the Horst Link one's are already Classics in their own right but few people are giving them any due or recognition.


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## Zendog13 (Nov 6, 2007)

Hmmm lets not forget Airbourne Ti bikes which closed down but has been continued in essence as Van Nicholas from Holland who are a small family run company making very clean, well built and good bikes http://www.vannicholas.com/ Heck...first fully mass produced hydro formed Ti frame has got to count for summat no?
And my widdle ole Heckler 06. Definitely a keeper.


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## veloreality (May 10, 2009)

years and years from now i look forward to drooling over blacksheep and jones bikes on ebay going for triple and more of todays retail. 
especially with the amount of price jump on ti over the past few years.

what tires are gonna be the classics?

i think alot of todays gems will still be made in similar forms years from now so i dont know about parts really.(i dont see chris king/thomson/paul/white industries changing much over the next 15-20 years)

maybe i9 will be the bombshell in 20 years.


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## 805MTB (Jul 4, 2010)

Ibis 
Cielo Cycles
Colnago steel that's being made now
Colnago 50th Anniversary bike

oh and my Rockhopper


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

Future classics:

Anything Ventana
Anything Turner
Maverick frame & fork
New Ibis
Anything Intense
Anything Santa Cruz
Yeti's DH frame whose back end articulated on rails
Brooklyn Machine Works Race Link
Brooklyn Machine Works Park Bike
SuperCo Silencer, whenever it comes out
Blackmarket Mob
Tonic Fabrications Fall Guy
Anything the small guys build, like Curtlo, Waltworks, Coconino,Wojcick, Rock Lobster, etc.....


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## onlycrimson (Nov 11, 2008)

Titus bikes.... maybe


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## cegrover (Oct 17, 2004)

I've read here that classic might mean a bike that is, at some point, worth more than it's original retail list price. Note that we don't talk much here about adjusting for inflation. One online calculator points out that $1,300 in 1980 (the price of a complete Ritchey bike) equals $3,340.

So...very, very few MTBs from the 1980s have truly outpaced inflation. Of course, at the rate the dollar's going today, this could be MUCH more important .


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## safariofthemind (Oct 27, 2010)

Is it possible not all collectable bike frames will be the super expensive? What about blue collar bikes?

Also, being a Surly Cross Check owner, I do believe the trends in 29er and mtb/cross are parallel paths and 29ers are not a fad. I also don't think they'll be exclusively American/European. 

Not clear about whether only low-production quantities are the best predictor. I love my 1954 Schwinn Spitfire and there certainly were a lot of them made. 

There has to be more. Something that will tug at people's heart strings IMO.

Of course, I am just a newbie in this part of the hobby (though an old hand at cycling). 

If you were buying new today intending to hold on for 30 years, where would you place your wager?


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## 805MTB (Jul 4, 2010)

Vlad said:


> Anything the small guys build, like Curtlo, Waltworks, Coconino,Wojcick, Rock Lobster, etc.....


add Richard Sachs, Chris Kvale

frames made with exceptional, legendary craftsmanship


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Vanilla


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

I agree with Safari's point about Surly. Mass produced and well-used by many, they were the lower cost (but cool!) entry point for many people on fixed gear/cyclocross/single speed mtb, etc. So they will have that emotional affect thing for a certain generation of bikers. I can see a Surly kept in new/nice shape continuing to hold its value/interest in years forward.


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## safariofthemind (Oct 27, 2010)

The love factor has got to be there IMO. 

How many of current day collectors collect the bikes they lusted after when they were young and could not afford them?

And how many of us pay ridiculous prices for an old banana seat bike for our kids 'cause it reminds us of our childhood?


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

yo-Nate-y said:


> I agree with Safari's point about Surly. Mass produced and well-used by many, they were the lower cost (but cool!) entry point for many people on fixed gear/cyclocross/single speed mtb, etc. So they will have that emotional affect thing for a certain generation of bikers.


Absolutely. Look at the desirability of Schwinn cruisers from the 1930s and 1940s. Almost all of these are low to mid-range kids bikes. They're not hand-made, and there's not a lot of craftmanship in them. However, they're neat because they're old and represent a by-gone era.

I think a lot of the "blue color" bikes will be like the Schwinns of yesteryear. I doubt that many will get excited about old Huffys, but old Surlys will likely be a "neat old bike" some day.


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## jacobslide (Aug 28, 2008)

Anyone mention Merlin Fats?


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

It has to be a bike that still is on par, performance-wise, 10-20 years later. I think a lot of custom/small production hardtails from the early to mid '90s are as good--if not better--than the current crop of hardtails (brakes are an obvious exception).


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## misterdangerpants (Oct 10, 2007)

KDXdog said:


> Any bike made within 200 miles of Boston.


:thumbsup:


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

I think part of the Schwinn cruiser appeal is that so many boys destroyed theirs when they were first produced that rideable examples in great shape are rare today. (Well- rarer! ) Not to mention the fact that they have a historical touchstone in early mtb development, which enhances their desirability as well. 

Which brings me to my point about high production/low cost bikes that might someday be valuable as collector rigs. My feeling is that they have to have had some impact, some game changing influence on cycling, or have to have been a highly desirable rig when brought out, which has few good remaining examples in the future. 

I would think a 2001 gary Fisher Super Cal 29"er would be in that list. I would also submit that early Karate Monkeys in the Camp stove green original color might someday be on that list. (But then, I'm into 29"ers, so.....) 

But the point is that unless a high number production rig has some historical influence or is something that tugs at the heartstrings of folks 30 years down the line because it was their "first________" bicycle, (fill in the blank as you wish), then it really won't be collectable at first. Maybe later on other rigs get added to these collectable lists because all the really good stuff is taken/too high a price to get into, but they won't be all that valuable in my opinion.


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## under the radar (Sep 15, 2010)

hmmm...a couple bikes that i feel are transitioning from 'obsolete' to 'classic' status are the, SantaCruz Bullit and the Specialized P3.


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## eastcoaststeve (Sep 19, 2007)

At the risk of making my future aquisitions more expensive.... 


Spooky

anything FTW

90's downhill/4cross bikes 
(the ones the cool guys rode, that the kids of today will treasure when they are older and have $)




Steve


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## under the radar (Sep 15, 2010)

cegrover said:


> I've read here that classic might mean a bike that is, at some point, worth more than it's original retail list price. Note that we don't talk much here about adjusting for inflation. One online calculator points out that $1,300 in 1980 (the price of a complete Ritchey bike) equals $3,340.
> 
> So...very, very few MTBs from the 1980s have truly outpaced inflation. Of course, at the rate the dollar's going today, this could be MUCH more important .


yes, but i think that the prices for high end 80's bike is going up...i think 90's bike just hit rock bottom a year or two ago and now they are on the upswing. given enough time, i think that '80 Ritchey will eventually outpace inflation. its making it through that initial ''obsolete'' phase where value is lowest when many great bikes are abused or junked.


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## Vlad (Feb 7, 2004)

The first generation, blue-anodized Santa Cruz Superlight is a classic in my book, as is Specialized's short-travel, lightweight XC full suspension race bike, 10+ years ago. Can't remember what it was called.


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## gm1230126 (Nov 4, 2005)

+1 Coconino


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## CroMoHo (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm starting to think that _any_ crome-moly 'diamond' frame hardtail with actual ROUND tubes will probably be a desireable classic some day, as long as it's from a decent company. Eventually everything's going to have hydro-formed tubes, or be made of carbon fiber.


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## under the radar (Sep 15, 2010)

blumarvel said:


> I'm starting to think that _any_ crome-moly 'diamond' frame hardtail with actual ROUND tubes will probably be a desireable classic some day, as long as it's from a decent company. Eventually everything's going to have hydro-formed tubes, or be made of carbon fiber.


i can buy that.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Just like in the past I think current builders need to have something unique about their designs or exceptional quality for the frames to be desired years later. Things like cool paint schemes or a cool logo help too. If its easily recognizable now it will probably be an object of desire later.

Stickel's short chainstay 29ers would probably be a good bet. Innovative design, interesting to look at, solid cro-mo construction, and his new prismatic decals will look cool for years and stand out.

I'm sure anything Engin will be sought too - He may not be breaking ground with his designs but he's one of a few crafting frames that look like art.


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## safariofthemind (Oct 27, 2010)

What about bikes with hydroformed tubes in the frame that have unique shapes? Does it have to be a unique, or pioneering technology to be collectable?


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## insanitylevel9 (Sep 23, 2009)

frank the welder stuff... at least id imagine it would be just look what metal heads are getting


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## mainlyfats (Oct 1, 2005)

KDXdog said:


> Sevens and Indys. And Wojicks. Any bike made within 200 miles of Boston.


+1 and definitely - although they are now getting a little long in the tooth to be "today" - including Mass. built Merlins.


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## smithjss (Apr 3, 2010)

This thread is incredibly insightful so thank you all you have contributed. A lot of good info here and I'm much more informed for reading it through.


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## Austin Dave (Jul 7, 2010)

I had never heard of SWD racing until it's owner Steve DeLay died in 2008, and I read his obituary. Sounds like an awesome guy who made great downhill bikes. I don't/couldn't ride downhill, but I'd buy one of his bikes just to have one, for sure.
The passing of Steve W. DeLay of SWD Bikes - Pinkbike


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

My "neo classic" Coconino. Built up a week ago. The only Coco cruiser with a straight upper tube in existence. 

For current classics I like the Ibis Tranny for it's geo, non 29 option, ability to be ran geared or SS, and without a tensioner. And it breaks down to a travel bike. And because it's an Ibis


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

None

The mid 80s through mid 90s were characterized by "heros" who defined the sport. Their bikes were synonymous with their names and their successes.

We regular folk could buy those bikes or something very close and race along side the heros or at least in lower level races just before or just after them. We could upgrade the components of the frame we bought in 1988 and successfully compete on that same bike in *all* of the disciplines - uphill, cross country, downhill and slalom - and not feel we were at a disadvantage in any of them. There was even trials for "regular" bikes.

And the fact that we still build, ride and race these same frames 20-25 years later is further evidence of their classic stature.

How many and which bikes today are *as* associated with a "hero"- someone you can admire not only for their race prowess and success but also for their approachability, friendliness, "goodness" and other qualities you would like to see in yourself or your children? Will that bike be as associated with some memorable hero and winning 20 years from now?

What cars today will be the 1970 454 Chevelle SS with AirGrabber hood or 1971 Hemi 'Cuda Convertible? There are many great cars today - far more capable than anything BITD but none that will have the visceral appeal and immediate recognition associated with "winning" that those cars have. The field of excellence is wide and deep so none stand out.

Same with bikes. So none today will be classics tomorrow.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

"How many and which bikes today are as associated with a "hero"- someone you can admire not only for their race prowess and success but also for their approachability, friendliness, "goodness" and other qualities you would like to see in yourself or your children?"

This is exactly why I order a Coconino. From the early days of "BIKE Magazine" covers to today, Steve Garro has inspired me more than anyone in mountain biking.

I don't use the word "hero", except for my dad but Steve is a mentor and a fine example of what a man should be. Meeting him softened the sharp edges I was carrying.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

^^sit around the campfire with him for a while, he ain't lying


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## wv_bob (Sep 12, 2005)

Any of the handmade Chromags.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

I am thinking an early (relative I know) Willits 29'er. Something early enough that it is still sporting rim brakes.


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## kpomtb (Feb 2, 2006)

Vader said:


> My "neo classic" Coconino. Built up a week ago. The only Coco cruiser with a straight upper tube in existence.


That thing is sweet. Nice to see pics of it built up. How does it ride?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Austin Dave said:


> I had never heard of SWD racing until it's owner Steve DeLay died in 2008, and I read his obituary. Sounds like an awesome guy who made great downhill bikes. I don't/couldn't ride downhill, but I'd buy one of his bikes just to have one, for sure.
> The passing of Steve W. DeLay of SWD Bikes - Pinkbike


Just became my hero.


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## Austin Dave (Jul 7, 2010)

colker1 said:


> Just became my hero.


Yeah, a hero for me too. Not much out there about Steve or SWD in print, but everyone who met him seems to have loved him. Here is one more article about him:
Yahoo! Groups

I was digging around to find out more about him and bumped into a great guy who sent me this note.

_ Steve passed from a freak case of pnumonia...same situation as Jim Henson...real sad. His "company" was more of a tribe or movement than a business. A group of fellow riders and volunteers who worked out of passion for the sport. He built all his frames custom to order and no two were totally alike. He also didn't sell them for a profit...only enough to cover costs and pay expenses. He felt that DH should be accessible to everyone and shouldn't be as expensive or complicated as most were making it.

Thanks for the interest in the bikes. They were, and are, very unique and special. Maybe not the fanciest rides in the world, but tough and with a homemade, industrial charm that made them stand out in the sea of monocoque, CNC'd, super bikes. I have a great article about him published in BIKE magazine from 2006 that I'll send you.
_

One of his bikes sold on Pink bike last month:
SWD Racing 216DH - Pinkbike

I BIKE have the article. if anyone wants to read it.


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