# CBD Oil - no THC and mounting evidence for it's effectiveness



## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

Recent state votes legalizing marijuana has brought attention to certain properties of the hemp plant that were little known to most of us up until recently.
Cannabinoids (cannabis oil,) better known as CBD *oil*, is being found to aid in chronic pain relief as well as treating stress and other ailments (read CANCER) without the side affects of many prescription drugs.
Charlottes Web (the Stanley brothers) of Boulder, CO are producing, promoting, and marketing the stuff online.
Another aid is CBD *salve,* used as an analgesic (pain relief.)
I have had pretty good results in treating muscle and nerve pain with the salve, and am taking the oil daily for other issues. 
Anyone else using this stuff?


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## milliesand (Jun 29, 2015)

I use a few drops of tincture in the water bottle to control seizures. CBD only wasn't as effective.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

I've been using CBD cream for this itchy spot I got on my back recently. Might be shingles. Anyway, doc gave me some drugs that didn't do anything but the CBD cream is working pretty well to stop itching and burning. 
I've got some drops at home. Took them once and didn't feel anything. I guess its something you need to do regularly to start feeling a benefit.


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## 2xPneu (Jan 26, 2004)

My wife got us started using capsules of Rick Simpson's Oil (RSO) which is essentially hash oil made by extracting the goodness from (legally obtained) buds using 190 proof organic cane alcohol although other solvents such as butane are used as well. RSO has THC which is actually more effective at pain relief, itchy spots, etc although it def gets you high. I take one before dinner for insomnia and it works like a dream, so to speak. Sleep thru the night, get up the next day and feel great. I've been using this every night for about 18 months with no ill effects, loss of strength, etc, and had a physical a month ago with nothing negtive in the bloodwork/exam. I discussed it with my doc who has no problems with the use of RSO. There are a lot of positive health implications from using it as well, here's a link:
https://healthyhempoil.com/rick-simpson-cannabis-oil-for-sale/

If you're going to use it I'd suggest making your own vice purchasing it online/wherever since it's not only easy to make, you'll know what's in it.

Great stuff.


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

Right on - I'm glad to be seeing this happening in my lifetime, kind of like seeing all the bike trails that have been built in the last 10 - 20 years!

CBD and RSO are the same product, other than for the THC.

Charlottes Web uses two different extraction processes - isopropyl alcohol and carbon dioxide. Both yield relatively pure results, with CO2 being the safest means of production. The impurities result more from growing and cultivating the plants, than from processing them.

Right now it's hard to get commercial oils without the risk of outside chemicals being used, but imbibing the oils are no different than buying and smoking medical marijuana, or any marijuana for that matter, as it all has whatever chemicals were used on it when it was grown.


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

I just googled and found that Texas will allow the use of CBD oil to treat intractable epilepsy sometime in late 2017, sparking interest in Texas to grow and process marijuana to make CBD oil. A few licenses will be issued to commercial operations for this purpose. 

This will be very tightly regulated, with "a special registry of doctors who treat epilepsy and a list of patients already diagnosed with intractable epilepsy". If I understand this correctly, it means the CBD oil would not be available to physicians in a more general way, to eliminate the possibility of off-label prescribing. 

Kinky Friedman did run for Texas agricultural commissioner in 2014, on a reasonable platform: "he said his top campaign issue — legalizing marijuana and its sister crop, hemp — would help keep farmers afloat because the plants need relatively less water to grow and are in high demand." Alas, Kinky didn't make the Democratic runoff.

I can't see Texas legalizing marijuana any time soon -- we're in thrall to socially conservative lawmakers -- but Texas is a deeply agricultural state. When marijuana is legalized some day, the impetus will be from the commercial agricultural sector seeking big $$$ profit $$$. 

Our current agricultural commissioner doesn't believe in medical majijuana, but he's fine with the Jesus Shot. This beaten up wreck of a rodeo cowboy wandered across the border to Oklahoma to get a $300 Jesus Shot on the taxpayers dime. When asked if the Jesus Shot worked, Sid said, "It's worked out good". 

One Jesus Shot is claimed to cure all pain forever. You can get the Jesus Shot only from Dr. Mike, an ex felon (income tax evasion, health care fraud for starters) who had his medical license revoked in Ohio. 
Dr. Mike isn't saying what's in a Jesus Shot, but a past employee says it's a mixture of two anti-inflammatory drugs (Dexamethasone and Kenalog) and Vitamin B12. 

Sid Miller would be better off with CBD oil, I think.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

You all need to move to WA, you can choose your tonic, open seven days a week, at the Happy Croppe Shop.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

A local guy was recently arrested for selling his medical stash. 

What would be the benefit to the buyer (other than a possible medical condition not recognized by the state)? Isn't the THC removed?


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## milliesand (Jun 29, 2015)

Crankout said:


> A local guy was recently arrested for selling his medical stash.
> 
> What would be the benefit to the buyer (other than a possible medical condition not recognized by the state)? Isn't the THC removed?


Here in AZ, the buyer would save the cost (about $250 yearly) of a MMJ card.

I don't know if THC can be "removed" unless it's done by mixing different strains during the plant growth cycle.


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## mudflap (Feb 23, 2004)

I was given a tour of the Charlotte's Web production facility in Boulder last month.
They produce their CBD oil out of the hemp plant, which contains nothing more than a trace of THC to begin with. Not sure if any of the oils are 100% THC free.

Their CBD oil is available through their website, but as you will see, it's not cheap, but then neither is an ounce of pot, so don't let the sticker shock deter you if their CBD oil might make life a little better for you.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

milliesand said:


> Here in AZ, the buyer would save the cost (about $250 yearly) of a MMJ card.
> 
> I don't know if THC can be "removed" unless it's done by mixing different strains during the plant growth cycle.


Seems I've repeatedly heard the MM is THC-free, but I've never had a need to investigate it further.


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

The mom who lobbied relentlessly to get the Texas legislature to pass the law for CBD oil for those with intractable epilepsy is now in great distress because the relentless regulations associated with growing the source crop and processing it for CBD oil is creating a product so costly that it is financially out of reach for most people. Her daughter has constant seizures.


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## cjcrawford (Jun 2, 2008)

I bought some CBD oil for sleep/shoulder pain a few weeks ago. Supposedly, it had only trace amounts of THC. I tried 2 drops - nothing, 4 drops - nothing, 8 drops - nothing. Then I used whole syringe (maybe 20 drops?) and was stoned 45 minutes later. Can't say it did anything special. I think there is a ton of hype around all this stuff. I've tried different strains of cannabis (sative, indica, etc..) and I have to say that the effect is exactly the same stoned feeling I got smoking pot in college 35 years ago which is cool if that is something that helps you. In my case, give me the drug that energizes me and makes me lucid (haven't found it yet); pot/thc just makes makes me sleepy and stupid. Chris.


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

Wasn't effective for me. I tried the tincture for over a month. Many drops. Worked neither for soreness or pain. Waste of money.


Pretty sure there are lot people who are making money off CBD hyping this product on forums. Don't believe the hype.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

AC/BC said:


> Wasn't effective for me. I tried the tincture for over a month. Many drops. Worked neither for soreness or pain. Waste of money.
> 
> Pretty sure there are lot people who are making money off CBD hyping this product on forums. Don't believe the hype.


Yes, but good lucking getting a believer to see the light.

I work in a Mental Health Triage, I can't tell you how many folks insist these oils work, but like all things it depends on how much you use; take enough and you'll notice something...

The issue I have with drugs and alcohol is that it impairs cognition, can lead to addiction, and it does nothing to treat a chemical imbalance or a physiological need.

As a famous personality once said: "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son".

But for some people it's their way of life.

I prescribe exercise, staying active, avoiding stressful situations and stressful people, and above all don't sweat the stupid stuff; cuz it's all stupid stuff.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

Confirmation bias + placebo effect = studies that prove effectiveness

Many who seek external solutions to treat internal problems buy into the next newest and greatest cure marketing hype. 

Regardless on the outcome of any study, if you believe something helps you feel better, and because of that belief you actually do feel better, then that product is actually effective.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

If you can use cbd effectively you should, it's far better for you than pharmaceuticals. Impaired cognition comes in many forms...


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

There is also evidence that an "entourage effect", based upon the whole plant, not just CBD, is beneficial for some maladies.

I'm NOT a stoner by any means and don't like to be "high", but a particular strain saved my colon.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

bsieb said:


> If you can use cbd effectively you should, it's far better for you than pharmaceuticals. Impaired cognition comes in many forms...


Far better for you than pharmaceuticals? Hmm, might I suggest carrots for you nearsightedness and bagbalm in place of shoes?

So silly, to classify all medications as less effective than a homeopathic remedy, then one day you have a serious illness and it's suddenly "please, give me whatever it takes to save me".

Nothing like a misinformed public to misrepresent the truth.

Like I tell my patients, I don't really care if you take my advice, it's your body/mind and you have the freedom to choose, but if you want to be healthier and live longer, it's worth considering what I suggest.

I did get extensive medical training and I do practice this medical thing all the time, but who knows, maybe people can learn more than a medical professional by reading the internet, yeah, sure they can


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Like I said...


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Appropriate testing on Cannabis has never really been done by the FDA, nor anyone else. Its' ridiculous Schedule 1 status disallows for any medical use, while it's highly likely that CBD truly does have anti-inflammatory properties and could be developed further.

It's also highly likely that there are therapeutic uses for other compounds in the plant, including THC. Until the Feds get their heads out of their asses and move out of the 30's era Reefer Madness mentality, we may never really know.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

June Bug said:


> The mom who lobbied relentlessly to get the Texas legislature to pass the law for CBD oil for those with intractable epilepss is now in great distress because the relentless regulations associated with growing the source crop and processing it for CBD oil is creating a product so costly that it is financially out of reach for most people. Her daughter has constant seizures.


Yet another reason to move from Texas to Colorado.

Seriously, if your kid is having seizures and the state you live in is stuck at around 1952, it might be time to move.

I'm not pot user, but I have no problem with what Colorado has done. You want CBD/THC whatever? Have at it. Much better than opiods. I read an article in the Wall Street Journal last week about a guy who bought a house in 2005 in Mobile, AL. It went way, way underwater after the crash, so he couldn't get rid of it and had to rent it out. Within a few years, his brand new subdivision was full of pill addicts, and one of his tenants was busted for being a huge source. When you look at the total f*&^ing ridiculousness of a situation where McKesson has been fined hundreds of million of dollars at least twice for pushing opiods, but they are still in business, while people in Texas/Alabama/etc. are in jail for a couple of joints, it is infuriating.

Don't like my comment about Texas being stuck in the 1950's? Read this: Scale of opioid epidemic in Texas likely obscured by bad data, experts say | The Daily Texan


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> Far better for you than pharmaceuticals? Hmm, might I suggest carrots for you nearsightedness and bagbalm in place of shoes?
> 
> So silly, to classify all medications as less effective than a homeopathic remedy, then one day you have a serious illness and it's suddenly "please, give me whatever it takes to save me".
> 
> ...


So what is your take on the over 20,000 people per year who die from prescription painkiller overdoses?


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

According to NORML, there has been extensive research studies on the marijuana plant for quite a while. Some of which were carried out in govt labs and there is no reason to share their results. I think one of the studies involved chimpanzees and trying to determine the LD50. It was something on the magnitude of several pounds in ridiculously short amount of time. There is an Israel lab that has done a far amount of work for decades. 

I was under the impression that CBDs are made in about the same concentration as THCs, depending on the strain. I was told this by a analytical chemist who previously worked in a lab I was a part of who had gone on to one of the MM companies in MN. His job was to grow various strains and use chromatographic methods (supercritical fluid extraction IIRC) to separate the compounds in the plant. The compounds of interest would then be concentrated and combined with the extracts from other extractions to make a homogenous product of known concentration for those with a prescription. One of my previous PIs and another PI who collaborates with him are in a consulting position with the company. I also know someone on campus who is growing hemp and his PI, but his interest is more in creating a database and support for commercial hemp growers to provide material for products for industries other than medical. I'll have to ask him about the content of CBD in hemp. It may be one of the compounds he is looking for when using the GC-MS I see him sitting in front of for days on end. 

Pharmaceutical chemistry has a long history of looking for and isolating compounds of interest from plants that are utilized in homeopathic and traditional medicines. Taxol is a chemo therapy drug isolated from the pacific Yew tree. Opium from the poppy plant from which chemists synthesized morphine, heroin, etc. There are many other examples. The industry also looks at chemical synthesis of known compounds occurring in nature. Additionally, the industry works quite hard at making new compounds and testing them. Viagra for instance started out as something for hypertension and heart issues when the test subjects came back and mentioned the side effect that is now the main reason it is prescribed. We still don't don't know the mechanism by which Tylenol works. I'm not saying that we should be overly wary of the pharmaceutical industry by any means. I'm taking medications to deal with hypertension, cholesterol and high levels of triglycerides. However, the industry does not have it all figured out. Homeopathic medicine has less figured out to be fair, but that doesn't mean it has nothing to offer either.

Blame Nixon for wanting to get political dissidents (hippies) off the streets, into jails and away from the polls. Granted, the madness was already there as mentioned, but it was a politically motivated action to list is as a schedule 1 drug.


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

Talked to the student I know working on hemp varieties. CBD concentration in some hemp strains can be 1-3% vs 0.3% THC which is the acceptable threshold for hemp. The drug varieties will produce something around 12-15% CBD and correspondingly THC. Even the dominant CBD drug strains will obviously have more than the acceptable level of THC for field production which is necessary to produce volume without the exorbitant costs for drug production. IIRC the conversational details, Charlotte's Web took a drug strain and crossed it several times with a hemp variety to try and retain the CBD production while lowering the THC levels to the acceptable threshold. It's interesting to me that both compounds are controlled supposedly by a single gene. I find that interesting as typically there is redundancy in plants for various compounds.


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

chuckha62 said:


> There is also evidence that an "entourage effect", based upon the whole plant, not just CBD, is beneficial for some maladies.


I don't find this surprising at all. Science can sometimes get lost in the manipulation of one variable at a time which can be short sighted and not necessarily applicable in the real world. That said, science is cool.

In vitro, in vivo, in silico...


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

dbhammercycle said:


> Blame Nixon for wanting to get political dissidents (hippies) off the streets, into jails and away from the polls. Granted, the madness was already there as mentioned, but it was a politically motivated action to list is as a schedule 1 drug.


You're not wrong, but the issue goes back way further to a 30's era US Federal Bureau of Narcotics chief, Harry Anslinger. The roots of the illicitness of the "drug" were actually motivated by racism, among other factors.

Egads! White women were sleeping with black men. Black men were smoking reefer in the Jazz clubs where white women went to dance. The connection was obvious. Marijuana was the cause.

We have got to evolve, right?


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

^^^ Anslinger, incidentally, once said that you could grow enough Marijuana in a Toledo Window Box, to get the entire state of Ohio stoned. 

Many years later George Carlin made a comedy album called, Toledo Window Box.


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

chuckha62 said:


> You're not wrong, but the issue goes back way further to a 30's era US Federal Bureau of Narcotics chief, Harry Anslinger. The roots of the illicitness of the "drug" were actually motivated by racism, among other factors.
> 
> Egads! White women were sleeping with black men. Black men were smoking reefer in the Jazz clubs where white women went to dance. The connection was obvious. Marijuana was the cause.
> 
> We have got to evolve, right?


Oh, let's not forget that cocaine also had a role in those politics during the roaring '20's.

Unfortunately, there were too many things that were used to diminish people of other cultures, creeds and color in order to maintain some supposed status quo of power, control and money. I certainly hope we can evolve and more importantly that we choose to do so to make the world a better place... 
...where mtb can subjugate other forms of riding.


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## dbhammercycle (Nov 15, 2011)

chuckha62 said:


> ^^^ Anslinger, incidentally, once said that you could grow enough Marijuana in a Toledo Window Box, to get the entire state of Ohio stoned.
> 
> Many years later George Carlin made a comedy album called, Toledo Window Box.


Yet another reason to listen to what George had to say...


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

dbhammercycle said:


> Yet another reason to listen to what George had to say...


As if we needed more. A man WAAAY ahead of his time.


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## mactweek (Oct 3, 2011)

The original theme of this post was CBD oil, it has since been hijacked to essentially a medical marijuana theme. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. 
CBD oil is made from the hemp plant, not the cannabis plant. They are closely related but not really the same. Hemp is used to make rope, fabric and other things. The hemp plant contains only .03% thc , which is the part that gets you high. Hemp oil, from which the CBD oil is derived is legal in 50 states as a nutritional supplement. Some of the cbd oil manufacturers go to the extra effort to remove the remaining thc from their products. This prevents possible positive drug tests. 
I have been using both an ointment and a sublingual tincture (under the tongue) for my arthritic hands for a few months. I would love to say that all my pain is gone, but I can't. There is a very significant reduction in the swelling of my fingers. This alone is worth the cost to me. The inflammation is reduced and I rarely have days that my joints just hurt all over. (unless I forget to take my dose for a few days)
This is not a magic elixir for me but more of a significant step toward making my life better. I am 66 years old and have had arthritis since 25. I spent most of my career delivering food to restaurants and other institutions. My hands are so bent and crooked they look to be about 85 years old. 
P.S. I have taken a drug test after I started using cbd and was clean.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^CBD is good stuff! I've had good results taking Tumeric, or curcumin, it's active ingredient, in gelcaps, for arthritis. The caps with ginger and black pepper also are more potent, I believe.


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## sick4surf (Feb 4, 2004)

CBD cream is different from the oil you take under your tongue. The CBD cream when rubbed on painful knee from inflammation removed the pain for about 6 hours, comparable to an advil but without side effects. The oil for under the tongue did not work for my pain but the cream definitely worked. The CBD cream with THC is stronger than just the CBD cream. There is no psycho active effect in the cream to my knowledge. I think the oil you ingest is more for soothing nerves.


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## broncbuster (Jun 11, 2006)

CBD (no THC) oil seems to work for my shoulder & knee pain when used topically. I wouldn't describe it as an immediate pain reliever since it seems to help more with inflamation instead (I think) so the pain is relieved in that way. Originally tried it orally but didn't work for me that way. 

I don't think THC should be legal or at least not in the strengths they market for medical use. Can't be good for the brain in that dose and on a regular basis...


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

With legalization comes increased regulation, and you may be relieved to hear that edibles are now restricted to more reasonable doses in California.

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

Does any recommend a certain brand cream?


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm giving CBD a shot. 

Hemp CBD kind of sucks. I know its the most popular, but thats because its the most accessible. You can and should get your CBD from pot. Of course if your state doesnt allow it, the hemp is probably ok enough. If it is legal in your state, skip the hemp! 

While chemically similar, hemp doesnt have much actual CBD in it, so you need a ton of hemp to get a little CBD, which at face value is fine but the hemp plant is great at sucking out garbage from the ground it grows in. Everything from air pollution to agricultural chemicals, hemp sucks it up that that ends up in your extracts. Whatever else ends up in the hemp extract makes me feel agitated. Not a ton, but its not great. The cannabis extract doesnt do this at all. 

Cannabis based CBD also comes with no THC. Or with THC. In any concentration of any combination. 

I think it works for a lot of things, and I think it might work well for a lot of things. Its so crazy safe that I think its worth trying for whatever it might work for. Go for the THC one if you want too, its harmless.


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

I personally think the oral under the tongue CBD is snake oil after trying it from Floyds. The placebo effect is strong


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## RustyIron (Apr 14, 2008)

AC/BC said:


> Does any recommend a certain brand cream?


Yeah. "Real Time Pain Relief." Check it out at www.rtpr.com.

I THINK it works, but maybe I've only enjoyed the placebo effect. I discovered the stuff at an event, where this lady had a booth set up. She engaged me in conversation and set the hook. You 50+ guys have surely been roped in via this method at one time or another.

Anyway, my shoulder had been hurting for a while, so charming woman massaged it with her magical elixir. I felt better. But who DOESN'T feel better after a lady massages whatever part ails you?

The price was a lot, so I didn't buy any that day. After returning home, I shopped around, but the price was ALWAYS the same. I think it's an MLM operation and the prices are fixed. Regardless, time passed and eventually my back was hurting. It was bad enough that I couldn't fix it myself, so I ordered up the "Real Time Pain Relief" variety pack. You pay a lot, but you get a lot of stuff that may or may not be real.

When my box of stuff arrived, I applied it, and after a few days my back was better. Did I feel better after each application? Yeah. Did it help heal my sore back? I don't know. Would my back have healed without it? Probably. As quickly? I don't know.

Sorry I can't give you a definitive answer. But the next time I need such a product, I'm going to grab it off the shelf and put it to use.


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## jjc155 (Aug 9, 2011)

Seems to work for my aches and pains from RA and just general getting old. I use the oil and put it in my coffee.

J-


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## The Tedinator (Sep 4, 2012)

For quite a while I have been a 3 ibuprofen and 1 Tylenol a night guy for arthritis. I first tried a cbd cream rub for the arthritis in my left knee and hands. Seemed to work. For Father's Day my daughter gave me a bottle of cbd oil. After about 2 weeks I quit taking the ibuprofen and tylenol.

As always, YMMV.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

As a medical provider, I’m always amazed that anyone would believe that a single product could have so many benefits, treat so many conditions, and be better than what science can create in a lab.

Just food for thought from someone in the biz...


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## jjc155 (Aug 9, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> As a medical provider, I'm always amazed that anyone would believe that a single product could have so many benefits, treat so many conditions, and be better than what science can create in a lab.
> 
> Just food for thought from someone in the biz...


Attitude totally doesn't surprise me for someone who is "in the biz."

J-


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

jjc155 said:


> Attitude totally doesn't surprise me for someone who is "in the biz."
> 
> J-


I'm just a scientist -- basic research, don't care if I cure cancer or develop cold fusion -- but I'm a fan of evidence based decisions in real life, like medicine for instance. Very few of the claimed CBD effects have been subject to experiments that would allow evidence based decisions regarding its use. I'll just add that the placebo effect is real and I'm fine with that -- hell, I'd love to have a good explanation for why it's so effective. But sometimes you pay a lot for that placebo and it seldom works for long.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^A lot/all of your science based pharmaceuticals have debilitating or fatal side effects over time, so if something as benign as cbd works for you, I would use it and never look back. Sheesh... take your meds dude.


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

honkinunit said:


> Yet another reason to move from Texas to Colorado.
> 
> Seriously, if your kid is having seizures and the state you live in is stuck at around 1952, it might be time to move.


I'm still amazed that these parents didn't travel to Colorado and pick up a stash of medical grade CBD oil and bring it back for their kid, whose seizures were debilitating.

My hope was that they were doing that all along, but apparently they were not, which is incomprehensible to me.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I can prescribe medications, drugs, placebo, therapy, or anything over the counter.

I gain no benefits from how I prescribe, the only one that benefits is my patient, so yeah, I prescribe whatvworks best.

I saw a lady in Triage this morning, she's struggling with chronic pain, currently taking 40mg MEQ daily, lots of homeopathics, and a shite ton of Kratum.

She came to Triage because she wanted help getting off Kratum .... it was making her psychotic.

Being someone on the biz, I see more, do more, know more than a gullible consumer such as yourself.

Do you honestly think that a consumer knows more, better, and sooner than a provider?

Wow, that's some ego playing...

Let's just say that us folks in the biz were acquainted with THC and it's friends long before it became a thing.

A bit of advice: avoid Kratum.

A bit of wisdom that a teen on the spectrum concluded the other day:

"So if you take pain medication, it stops working, then you need more, then it stops working, so then you hurt more than you did before taking pain medication?"

Yup.

I live in Nevada now, previously lived Washington, two states that have legalized marijuana. In both states I worked in the biz before, during, and after legalization. I'm not against legalization of marijuana any more than I'm against the legalization of alcohol; they are both equally bad for society.

The beginning of the end came in the 1980's when pain was added to the list of "vitals". The problem lies in the fact that pain is not vital, ie it does not measure anything vital, it's simply a perception.

Pain will not kill you, but it does hurt.



jjc155 said:


> Attitude totally doesn't surprise me for someone who is "in the biz."
> 
> J-


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## SeaHag (Jul 14, 2011)

A good friend of mine got scared off of his high blood pressure medication a few months ago after the tainted med scare. He'd heard of people managing their high blood pressure with CBD oil; so he got a bottle and tried it out.

He reports that a couple drops under the tongue twice a day has him completely off high blood pressure pharmaceuticals; and his blood pressure is even better than it was on the pharmaceuticals.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

bsieb said:


> ^A lot/all of your science based pharmaceuticals have debilitating or fatal side effects over time, so if something as benign as cbd works for you, I would use it and never look back.


And you know that CBD is benign because...? I don't know that CBD does anything positive beyond placebo or negative 'cause it's full of random poisons -- and you don't either. The difference is that I'm not fooling myself about what I know. 


bsieb said:


> Sheesh... take your meds dude.


Seems like you could use a little more THC in your CBD.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Ptor said:


> And you know that CBD is benign because...?


Benign, LMAO. Name an effective pharmaceutical that is "benign".

My wife had a couple of "benign" steroid shots for an ache in her shoulder, and now she has a cataract, caused by the steroids.

There are **** tons of people with liver and kidney problems from taking standard doses of ibuprofen. Aspirin has ruined millions of stomachs.

Tell us again about those "benign" pharmaceuticals they sell in Wyoming, where CBD oil will get you thrown in jail?


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Benign, LMAO. Name an effective pharmaceutical that is "benign".
> My wife had a couple of "benign" steroid shots for an ache in her shoulder, and now she has a cataract, caused by the steroids.
> There are **** tons of people with liver and kidney problems from taking standard doses of ibuprofen. Aspirin has ruined millions of stomachs.
> Tell us again about those "benign" pharmaceuticals they sell in Wyoming, where CBD oil will get you thrown in jail?


Read for comprehension much? I never argued on the behalf of "benign" pharmaceuticals -- I argue for evidence base decisions in health care. Your wife was aware of the potential consequences of her steroid injection and made her decision based on the evidence -- it's a classic "reward versus risk" decision. If she wasn't aware of the risk of cataracts, then that's on her because the data is readily available. She gambled, she lost, and that sucks but it's also life -- so no whining allowed. There probably isn't a person over 50 where either they or their loved ones haven't had to make that sort of medical decision -- is the treatment worth the risk. But with FDA approved pharmaceuticals you most always know the risk versus reward, or even if there's actually a reward beyond a placebo effect. There's good guidance out there for use of pharmaceuticals that have side-effects -- use ibuprofen right and you won't get liver/kidney damage, use aspirin correctly and it really is the miracle drug. What guidance based on scientific evidence is there for CBD use? For various reasons we don't have it and I'm all for having that evidence. Maybe it is benign, maybe it causes cancer after 6 years of steady use, maybe it blows up your liver in 10 years, maybe it's the proverbial fountain of youth. We don't know.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

sorry but you need to do some research. Both Asprin and Ibuprofen taken only as directed and used off and on for long periods is well known for causing issues. That's why the information is well known about the side effects. The effect each person differently though.

Also blaming a patient for not knowing all the risks, most people put their trust in their doctors, if the doctor doesnt cover all the risks involved because some are more rare, that's not the patients fault.

And it's already well proven by studies around the world and throughout recorded history that cannabis based treatments have been effective and that it has very few risks involved. Far less than anything synthetic. But like anything there is a moderation level but the level it takes to cause any real damage is quite hard to achieve and would be hard pressed (if any evidence even exists) for cannabis/hemp us has ever caused serious health issues or death. All is from using other drugs with it.

Personally I'm pretty irritated that it's so hard to gain access in my state. I spent 5 days in the Los Angeles area a week and a half ago for grandmothers funeral. I'm am currently recovering from major shoulder surgery a month ago and prescribed opiate based pain meds. Since California has legalized use, I decided to try some on day 1 of my trip. Didnt need a pain pill the rest of the trip until shortly before our flight home on day 5 because obviously I cant have or use it here. No ill feeling side effects, nothing. But unlike my prescribed pain meds I could stop it at will and not have issues. So I sit dealing with pain because I dont like how any pain meds mess with my stomach and such on continuous use. Cannabis, took about 10/1 a couple hours before bed and was fine for the entire night and other than morning stiffness and soreness which went away once I was up and moving, needed nothing again till before bed.

Something that's far safer then alcohol, much more natural and been used for 1000s of years vs government controlled for profit, ya I'll stick to more natural. Anyone to the contrary really needs to do more research and stop trusting the FDA so much, cause they arent out for us that's for damn sure.

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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

RAKC Ind said:


> sorry but you need to do some research. ... Also blaming a patient for not knowing all the risks, most people put their trust in their doctors, if the doctor doesnt cover all the risks involved because some are more rare, that's not the patients fault.


Irony alert!

This defense is weak -- the old saying "nothing is more valuable than good health" is true in my experience and why anyone goes forward with healthcare decisions without doing due diligence is beyond me. But it's the American way -- blame someone else for bad times and ill-considered decisions.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Ptor said:


> Read for comprehension much? I never argued on the behalf of "benign" pharmaceuticals -- I argue for evidence base decisions in health care. Your wife was aware of the potential consequences of her steroid injection and made her decision based on the evidence -- it's a classic "reward versus risk" decision. If she wasn't aware of the risk of cataracts, then that's on her because the data is readily available. She gambled, she lost, and that sucks but it's also life -- so no whining allowed. There probably isn't a person over 50 where either they or their loved ones haven't had to make that sort of medical decision -- is the treatment worth the risk. But with FDA approved pharmaceuticals you most always know the risk versus reward, or even if there's actually a reward beyond a placebo effect. There's good guidance out there for use of pharmaceuticals that have side-effects -- use ibuprofen right and you won't get liver/kidney damage, use aspirin correctly and it really is the miracle drug. What guidance based on scientific evidence is there for CBD use? For various reasons we don't have it and I'm all for having that evidence. Maybe it is benign, maybe it causes cancer after 6 years of steady use, maybe it blows up your liver in 10 years, maybe it's the proverbial fountain of youth. We don't know.


Yes, I'm CERTAIN, you read the 27 pages of legalese covering every possible side effect, that accompanies every commercial pharmaceutical. You get the recommendation from the physician for the injection, but you say "WAIT, I MUST RESEARCH THIS", then you go home, get on the internet, and research every side effect, reading the referenced medical journals (which you have to pay to access), BEFORE you make another appointment three weeks later to go BACK to the doctor 90 minutes away, pay again, and have the injection. Of course you do.


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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Yes, I'm CERTAIN, you read the 27 pages of legalese covering every possible side effect, that accompanies every commercial pharmaceutical. You get the recommendation from the physician for the injection, but you say "WAIT, I MUST RESEARCH THIS", then you go home, get on the internet, and research every side effect, reading the referenced medical journals (which you have to pay to access), BEFORE you make another appointment three weeks later to go BACK to the doctor 90 minutes away, pay again, and have the injection. Of course you do.


I sure as hell do. It's my health! Or it's my loved ones health. What is more foundational to having a good life than maintaining the best health your genetics and environment allow? And spending the time making sure I know everything I can about medical decisions sure beats any time spent learning about the most recent movie weekend ticket sales or stock market quotes. But then, YMMV.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Ptor said:


> I sure as hell do. It's my health! Or it's my loved ones health. What is more foundational to having a good life than maintaining the best health your genetics and environment allow? And spending the time making sure I know everything I can about medical decisions sure beats any time spent learning about the most recent movie weekend ticket sales or stock market quotes. But then, YMMV.


I agree with this. It's best to be well informed. But no everyone does. Doctors are someone you are supposed to be able to trust with your life, that's their job. So those that do I cannot see belittling them for.

I'm however one that doesnt go to doctors much. Tries to use natural means to ensure its kept to a minimum. Because in the end, too much money is involved for it not to play a part in decision making.

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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

There's an old saying about throwing the baby out with the bath water...

In the 1800's there was a medication that was considered a miracle drug, it was called laudanum.

There is no miracle cure, there is no magic pill, all medications as well as all drugs have their pros and cons.

The best cure is prevention.

and for those not in the biz... please note that medical providers make the same income regardless of what they prescribe; we don't get kickbacks from insurance or pharma. 

Being a medical provider is a hard job, an under appreciated job, a job that takes a whole lot of heart and patience to do.

There are many jobs that pay as well or better, with less heartache and far less hassle.

Most of us, if not all, work far more forty hours a week, but get paid for far less that the hours we work. Believe it or not, medical provides actually do have a life, we don't sleep in our office, and we actually need a break once in a while.

Hate to rant, but the negativity directed at medical providers on this thread really gets me worked up. If people would only take their "rage" and direct it toward something more positive like caring better for their health.

I have yet to meet a medical provider that is malicious and self serving. I'm sure they're out there, but for the most part I find that medical providers are good people, though often maligned.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Ben, your condescending refusal to step outside your own box might have something to do with it too. Quit telling us we don't know anything. Some of us use CBD under our doctors supervision, some effectively, some not, but at least let us decide what works for us. I'm pretty close to the medical community where I live, my brother is a doc and my son a med tech. There are many who see things quite differently than you do. I love my current doc and his crew but my previous public provider had me on all kinds of **** that was degrading my body and health. I'm so glad my son was looking out for me. I don't take any pharmaceuticals anymore and I enjoy nearly perfect health considering I survived a war, 40 years of construction work, and 30 years of mountain biking. Peace bro...


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> and for those not in the biz... please note that medical providers make the same income regardless of what they prescribe; we don't get kickbacks from insurance or pharma.


Straight up bullshit. I have a cousin who works for one of the very big pharma names. Her JOB is to give doctors a reason to prescribe their drugs, and the way she does it is by giving them junkets to five star resorts all over the world where they sit in a sales pitch "education session" for an hour in the morning, and then spend the rest of the day doing very expensive activities, paid for by the company. Oh yes, they can bring a guest who gets to hang at the spa all day if they want.

It may not show up on their tax returns, but that is some shady compensation right there.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

honkinunit said:


> Straight up bullshit. I have a cousin who works for one of the very big pharma names. Her JOB is to give doctors a reason to prescribe their drugs, and the way she does it is by giving them junkets to five star resorts all over the world where they sit in a sales pitch "education session" for an hour in the morning, and then spend the rest of the day doing very expensive activities, paid for by the company. Oh yes, they can bring a guest who gets to hang at the spa all day if they want.
> 
> It may not show up on their tax returns, but that is some shady compensation right there.


Nothing that involves as much money as big pharma is free from what you describe. The fact that you even had to present that story as proof is mind boggling.

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## SeaHag (Jul 14, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> and for those not in the biz... please note that medical providers make the same income regardless of what they prescribe; we don't get kickbacks from insurance or pharma.


Maybe you and your friends aren't getting kickbacks from Big Pharma, that certainly doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Are drug firms paying your doctor? Illinois doctors accepted $74.1M in industry payments last year - Chicago Tribune

I also agree with the other poster that advised not to trust too highly in the FDA. The FDA does not do any of their own research. They let the pharmaceutical companies submit their biased testing, pay a hefty fee...heftier if they want to 'fast track' their drugs to market, then the FDA rubber stamps most drug applications only to find out a decade later that the the pharmaceutical company hid evidence of the harm their product did from regulators. Then the lawyers jump in with their class action lawsuits; so everybody can get rich but the suffering patient.


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## The Tedinator (Sep 4, 2012)

I don't know if CBD oil is working, or if it is a placebo. Does it really matter? Early on in my attempts to control arthritis in my fingers, I started wearing a hematite magnetic bracelet. That made the pain not only bearable, but frequently made my thumb and fingers pain free. Once again, working or placebo? I certainly don't care. I'm more interested in results.

For the record, my doctor didn't poo poo the bracelets. He said, if it works, it works.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

tuckerjt07 said:


> Nothing that involves as much money as big pharma is free from what you describe. The fact that you even had to present that story as proof is mind boggling.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


So just because tech companies and oil companies bribe customers and get away with it, we should be OK with doctors being bribed to prescribe sketchy drugs?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

honkinunit said:


> So just because tech companies and oil companies bribe customers and get away with it, we should be OK with doctors being bribed to prescribe sketchy drugs?


I'd be more worried about the growing straw man population but that's just me.

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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

SeaHag said:


> The FDA does not do any of their own research.


Wrong. See all the links on this page.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

tuckerjt07 said:


> I'd be more worried about the growing straw man population but that's just me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Nice dodge. Are you OK with medical practitioners being bribed to push drugs or not?


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

honkinunit said:


> Nice dodge. Are you OK with medical practitioners being bribed to push drugs or not?


Where did I say I was?

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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

I am a (the?) 72 year old active mountain biker.

I have a lot of arthritis pain in my hands/fingers, neck and low back. I used to take a lot of ibuprofen, 8 - 10 200 mg most days. Then tried acetaminophen. MD prescribed meloxicam, 15 mg. It seems to help. I practically stopped taking the ibu and acet. Seems they don't provide much relief on top of the meloxicam. I still have too much pain, even though I am positive the meloxicam is helping.

I also take hydrocodone + acet, 10/325 which sometimes I break in half. The hydro works but I just can't take it all the time. I want to avoid becoming too tolerant of the drug.

So I ordered CBD cream about one month ago. I rub it on my more painful hand two or three times per day. I think it is working. The relief might be a cumulative effect as I did not notice any improvement for the first week or so.

Anyway, when this tube nears empty I will order another and see what happens.

I hope to continue to improve (duh!!!!!!!!!!).

Terry


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## SeaHag (Jul 14, 2011)

Ptor said:


> Wrong. See all the links on this page.


No...You're wrong. Taken directly from the FDA pages:

"Drug companies seeking to sell a drug in the United States must first test it. The company then *sends CDER the evidence* from these tests to prove the drug is safe and effective for its intended use. A team of CDER physicians, statisticians, chemists, pharmacologists, and other scientists reviews the company's data and proposed labeling. If this independent and unbiased review establishes that a drug's health benefits outweigh its known risks, the drug is approved for sale. *The center doesn't actually test drugs itself,* although it does conduct limited research in the areas of drug quality, safety, and effectiveness standards."

They only review the tests that are paid for by the drug manufacturer...who'd never lie or falsify reports to make a few billion. :madman:

Source: https://www.fda.gov/drugs/developmentapprovalprocess/default.htm


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> There's an old saying about throwing the baby out with the bath water...
> 
> In the 1800's there was a medication that was considered a miracle drug, it was called laudanum.
> 
> ...


I have a lot of respect for doctors, but really nurses more.

I am on the financial side of 'the biz' as you say. Unfortunately what you're saying is not true.

It may be true to your experience, which is great. But that's an exception in this country unfortunately.

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## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

SeaHag said:


> ... "The center doesn't actually test drugs itself, although *it does conduct limited research in the areas of drug quality, safety, and effectiveness standards."*


FDA doesn't develop drugs, but they do verify "quality, safety, and effectiveness", and that's an important part of the process -- it is research. They don't develop drugs, but the "limited research" comes in at the end of the process. It's kind of like the Reagan thing about nuclear disarmament -- "Trust, but verify". I know people who work or have worked for the FDA and they break plenty of test tubes there -- meaning they do lab work.

I'd just as soon federal funding supported all aspects of drug R&D. Rather, the Feds provide funds to support basic research that leads to new drug leads, lets industry run with that idea, and the the Feds come back at the end to put a stamp of approval (or not) on new drugs. Do you know why we haven't had any significant new antibiotics developed lately? Because it's not good for corporate profits to provide a cure -- one and done or a short course that fixes a problem means you don't have a lifetime customer. Whereas things like monoclonal antibodies to treat arthritis or eczema are a continual source of revenue. It's not near as profitable to develop a new antibiotic as it is to develop a new drug that treats a chronic condition (but doesn't cure it). There's now a cure for Hepatitis C, formerly a chronic condition, and it costs a zillion dollars, replacing only partially effective treatments that "managed" the disease and also cost a zillion dollars. So with this new pricing model out there I expect we'll have new antibiotics before long and they'll cost a zillion dollars a dose rather than the actual cost. I'm no fan of the pharmaceutical industry, but it's an example of capitalism at it's finest -- how can we be upset (if you're a true-blue American)? Same goes of commercial interests pushing untested, unregulated CBD tinctures -- it's about as 'Murica! as it gets.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^There is a reason that the words "pharma" and "farce" sound similar.


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

bsieb said:


> ^There is a reason that the words "pharma" and "farce" sound similar.


No, there isn't.

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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

tfinator said:


> No, there isn't.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


https://www.etymonline.com/word/pharmacy


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

bsieb said:


> https://www.etymonline.com/word/pharmacy


Okay, that's one. Now do the other and explain why it's not coincidence.

(Hint: it is coincidence)

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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

It's not coincidence at all. Spellings could be anywhere, but the actual sounds don't change much over time. I studied linguistics and have maintained my interest over the years. What do you know?


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

https://www.etymonline.com/word/farce#etymonline_v_1125. I was also a Linguistics major in college. It is purely coincidental that the words have any phonetic similarity. The historical roots are unrelated .


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Appreciate your opinion, and you could be correct for particular place and time. I was thinking a little further back than modern English.


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

bsieb said:


> ^Appreciate your opinion, and you could be correct for particular place and time. I was thinking a little further back than modern English.


Again, look up the origin of the other one. I don't see any relationship.

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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

One of my oldest friends was diagnosed with Mesothelioma and given weeks to live. He was told chemo and surgery options were pointless at that stage, so he started taking high doses of CBD oil he got from Holland. (He lived in the UK). This was 5 years ago, and he only recently passed away. The last few years were full and quite pain free until close to the end. I thought that taking CBD might be a good thing at the beginning of this year, so I started on it. Ironically, I was diagnosed soon after with a rare and so far incurable blood cancer, and put on daily chemo drugs to manage it. I also upped to a heftier max strength full spectrum CBD to mitigate the side effects of the drugs. This seemed to help and I was not too badly affected, altho I did get really high at a couple of inopportune moments! I changed to n isolate product in the day time, and a full spectrum before bed, and that seems to be the best combo for me. I recently went to work in Thailand for a week, and did not take my oil because they can do nasty things to 'drug' barons over there, and even tho CBD is sometimes sold in some places in Bangkok, there is still some confusion as to legality. I really felt a difference not having it! Just a couple of hours ago I woke up in my bed feeling really crappy. Deep bone aches and crawly feelings all thru me, and I realized I forgot to take my oil last night. It works well for me, and I have a 40% discount from Lazarus Naturals for my condition. (Deep gratitude guys!!!) Too expensive otherwise!


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## Krichoux (Nov 30, 2018)

Honestly there are many reasons you can use CBD but it's definitely important to make the difference between THC and CBD as many people are still confused on what CBD actually is...

Studies indicate that CBD oil can have a positive impact on the management of chronic pain and muscle soreness but there are many other benefits such as helping for anxiety, sleep support, skin care, etc.

i.e. https://healthy-hemp-cbd.com/cbd-benefits/

However I felt a bit more tired when I was using it, so I stopped straight after feeling better (I was using CBD tincture for back pain). I think it has great effects when you need it but I don't like how brands are selling it such as the ultimate remedy for everything.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

It is most definitely not the miracle cure some people make it out to be, and some people feel no benefit from it, but it does have its uses. It takes some time and juggling with doses to find what works for you. My oncologist is all for me continuing, in conjunction with the chemo. Until they find a better solution I will keep doing both.


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## chiva (Oct 13, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> So what is your take on the over 20,000 people per year who die from prescription painkiller overdoses?


Natural selection?


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm not against legalization of marijuana any more than I'm against the legalization of alcohol; they are both equally bad for society.


I cant imagine a healthcare professional still holding this opinion, with all the data out there, so easily available.

Alcohol is responsible for more deaths than any illegal drug. Crack and heroin included. It kills ~88,000 people per year, making it the 3rd most preventable cause of death behind tobacco and poor diet.

... and that's just statistics. I know so many people who have suffered years of heartache, financial ruin and trauma from alcohol. Seen families broken and children taken away, friends in jail, careers ruined, people hurt (sometimes physically) by alcohol. I know some potheads too. They're probably just hanging out right now.

I mean honestly, that statement is a few steps past ridiculous and well into absurd. Everything marijuana/hemp has been studied to death for safety that we're entirely past that. Its safe. The studies addressing if it is beneficial at all is shaky, but comparing harm to alcohol?

Overwhelmingly, we're not talking about trying to cure cancer with crystals or something silly. We're talking about average people in moderate pain who are choosing between just living with the pain, or trying CBD. By all means, try CBD! Post-recovery from a hard ride, try CBD for that too.

Worst case, nothing happens. Not death, not addiction, not bleeding internal organs. Pretty good deal!


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

rockerc said:


> It is most definitely not the miracle cure some people make it out to be, and some people feel no benefit from it, but it does have its uses. It takes some time and juggling with doses to find what works for you. My oncologist is all for me continuing, in conjunction with the chemo. Until they find a better solution I will keep doing both.


You have a great doctor and you are doing the right thing, rocker. Even as an acupuncturist/'herbalist for the last 30 years, in a majority of cases, I see an integrative approach as the best approach for patients. The best of multiple worlds, so to speak.

A rigid, ideology-based approach does not go well for most patients. I see this from both sides of the medical/healing world.


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## cyclelicious (Oct 7, 2008)

Recent article in pinkbike:

CBD is Being Marketed at Mountain Bikers, What Does That Mean?


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

My daughter gave me some lotion for my elbow. It had zero effect for the first month. I was about to quit when I noticed my elbow improving. I still have some pain but its much less. I am getting some more to try on my shoulder now.


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## shred79 (Jul 21, 2018)

I use it along with my arthritis medication, actually better improvement than the meds, especially at my neck









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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

chiva said:


> Natural selection?


It can't be natural selection if they have already successfully reproduced. The genes live on.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

My wife has a surgically repaired elbow which causes her pain when the weather changes. She has found that a CBD cream is the best at relieving pain. Is it a Placebo? Maybe, but it allows her to sleep at night.

Now, a friend's 84 year-old mom has been battling MS for nearly 40 years. For the last ten years or so she has been on varying pain meds and anti-inflammatory treatments to the point she has quite a few side effects. The pain meds have caused her bowels to bind up and she is in major discomfort just from that.

A few weeks ago, I was able to convince her to try a 20:1 CBD:THC gummy product. I also made sure that she consulted with her doctor, who told her it was worth a try. She was nervous as hell that she was going to get high. I promised her she wouldn't. 

She's now been using the CBD product for about three weeks and says she has cut way back on the pain meds. This has allowed her to sleep better and her digestive system is functioning again.


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

What brand cream are people using that's effective? I'm willing to give CBD another try...

I've previously tried a Floyd Landis brand tincture and it was completely bull crap. It didn't take any edge off inflammation for me. YRMV.

Things that have worked for me in the past are Thorne Research Curcumin + 500mg of Bromelain + straight up Turmeric pills (1000mg) all at once. Sometimes twice a day


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

With the _possible _exception of treating epilepsy, there's no scientific evidence to support CBD oil as valid treatment for any medical condition. OTOH, there's nothing to suggest that CBD oil is harmful, so...no downside to trying it if you can afford it. Probably safer than any of the other homeopathic nostrums out there, and the mind is a powerful thing. Never underestimate the power of the placebo effect.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> With the _possible _exception of treating epilepsy,* there's no scientific evidence to support CBD oil as valid treatment for any medical condition*. OTOH, there's nothing to suggest that CBD oil is harmful, so...no downside to trying it if you can afford it. Probably safer than any of the other homeopathic nostrums out there, and the mind is a powerful thing. Never underestimate the power of the placebo effect.


Too true, unfortunately. The federal (and ridiculous) classification disallows any true testing to take place.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

CBD oil with less than 0.3% THC is Federally legal in all 50 states since the passage of the Farm Bill, although some state still have laws prohibiting it.

One problem is that hemp-derived CBD oil is basically regulated as a food additive, not a medication. As a result, there's no regulation regarding its manufacture, meaning that the quality and content is highly variable and ripe for scamming.


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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

I spent about $140 on CBD oil hoping it would help with the terrible arthritis pain in my fingers and wrists. After two to three months of daily treatment, I gave up on it.

Totally ineffective.


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## SMR (Apr 20, 2004)

CBD oil did nothing for chemo induced neuropathy in my feet. CBD lotion (Flow by Fairwinds) did make my achy lower back pain from early season snowboarding go away at least for 4-6 hrs at a time. It did nothing for tendonitis. Kinda hit and miss.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

SMR said:


> CBD oil did nothing for chemo induced neuropathy in my feet. CBD lotion (Flow by Fairwinds) did make my achy lower back pain from early season snowboarding go away at least for 4-6 hrs at a time. It did nothing for tendonitis. Kinda hit and miss.


CBD oil is an unregulated over-the-counter "food supplement" that, currently, sits solidly in the realm of homeopathy and naturopathy with no proven benefit to the vast majority of human ills. If it wasn't for its tenuous legal status in many places, you'd likely see it in convenience stores and grocery store checkout lines. Like the rest of homeopathy and naturopathy, the value of CBD oil as perceived by the general public is largely driven by hoping and wishing. If CBD oil didn't work for you, it's very possible that you just didn't _believe _hard enough. But since it is unregulated, it's also possible that "Flow by Fairwinds" doesn't contain any CBD oil at all.


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

Cuyuna said:


> CBD oil is an unregulated over-the-counter "food supplement" that, currently, sits solidly in the realm of homeopathy and naturopathy with no proven benefit to the vast majority of human ills. If it wasn't for its tenuous legal status in many places, you'd likely see it in convenience stores and grocery store checkout lines. Like the rest of homeopathy and naturopathy, the value of CBD oil as perceived by the general public is largely driven by hoping and wishing. If CBD oil didn't work for you, it's very possible that you just didn't _believe _hard enough. But since it is unregulated, it's also possible that "Flow by Fairwinds" doesn't contain any CBD oil at all.


Just like you see a bunch of diet pills at convenient stores. Save your money and buy a tube of Bengay


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Cuyuna said:


> CBD oil is an unregulated over-the-counter "food supplement" that, currently, sits solidly in the realm of homeopathy and naturopathy with no proven benefit to the vast majority of human ills. If it wasn't for its tenuous legal status in many places, you'd likely see it in convenience stores and grocery store checkout lines. Like the rest of homeopathy and naturopathy, the value of CBD oil as perceived by the general public is largely driven by hoping and wishing. If CBD oil didn't work for you, it's very possible that you just didn't _believe _hard enough. But since it is unregulated, it's also possible that "Flow by Fairwinds" doesn't contain any CBD oil at all.


You can get CBD cream, tincture, gummies, and any other form you want at convenience stores and gas stations in Colorado. I'm sure it pisses off the 5-Hour energy people because it is pushing them off the counter.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

honkinunit said:


> You can get CBD cream, tincture, gummies, and any other form you want at convenience stores and gas stations in Colorado. I'm sure it pisses off the 5-Hour energy people because it is pushing them off the counter.


Varies by state, no doubt. In Minnesota, the legality of hemp-derived CBD products is a gray area, technically not legal, but the enforcement varies widely from County Attorney to County Attorney. Around here, the only place I'm aware of that sells it is the local laundromat... but you have to go back to the back room and it's a cash-only transaction.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Cuyuna said:


> CBD oil is an unregulated over-the-counter "food supplement" that, currently, sits solidly in the realm of homeopathy and naturopathy with no proven benefit to the vast majority of human ills. If it wasn't for its tenuous legal status in many places, you'd likely see it in convenience stores and grocery store checkout lines. Like the rest of homeopathy and naturopathy, the value of CBD oil as perceived by the general public is largely driven by hoping and wishing. If CBD oil didn't work for you, it's very possible that you just didn't _believe _hard enough. But since it is unregulated, it's also possible that "Flow by Fairwinds" doesn't contain any CBD oil at all.


What if CBD, homeopathy, and naturopathy worked for you, and worked for you consistently for a significantly long period of time? What would you do?


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Cuyuna said:


> Varies by state, no doubt. In Minnesota, the legality of hemp-derived CBD products is a gray area, technically not legal, but the enforcement varies widely from County Attorney to County Attorney. Around here, the only place I'm aware of that sells it is the local laundromat... but you have to go back to the back room and it's a cash-only transaction.


I find it fascinating that two of the most far left, liberal states in the USA, Illinois and Minnesota, are so afraid of CBD, let alone THC.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

There are some folks who claim an "entourage" effect, based upon the whole plant, to be the most effective. Not just extracts from the varying compounds within the plant. Given the current federal classification as a schedule 1 narcotic, it can't legally be researched, though. That gives way to outrageous claims and some outright quackery.

https://www.cannabisbusinesstimes.com/article/ebbu-entourage-effect-cannabis-guest-op-ed/

Hopefully we'll get over the reefer madness mentality one of these days and some true learning can begin.

Then there's this guy, who is near me:

https://terpenesandtesting.com/category/science/dr-jeffrey-hergenrather-cannabis-medicinal-benefits/


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Radium said:


> What if CBD, homeopathy, and naturopathy worked for you, and worked for you consistently for a significantly long period of time? What would you do?


Like most (but not all) homeopathic nostrums, CBD oil is not likely to be harmful, so no downside to taking it at all. The mind is a powerful thing. If your brain has convinced you that it works for you then you should definitely keep taking it.


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

honkinunit said:


> I find it fascinating that two of the most far left, liberal states in the USA, Illinois and Minnesota, are so afraid of CBD, let alone THC.


I think that's interesting too. I've lived here 35 years. I still don't fully understand Minnesota's brand of liberalism, although I confess I don't put a lot of effort into it as I am not of that persuasion.

And like you, I don't understand the stigma such states attach to something as demonstrably harmless as CBD oil. It's not rational. Must be politics, which IMHO is the basis of a large component of irrationality in human culture.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Cuyuna said:


> Like most (but not all) homeopathic nostrums, CBD oil is not likely to be harmful, so no downside to taking it at all. The mind is a powerful thing. If your brain has convinced you that it works for you then you should definitely keep taking it.


I'm sorry, you did not understand who I was addressing apparently. I was addressing YOU. What would YOU do if you found that to be the case?


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

Radium said:


> I'm sorry, you did not understand who I was addressing apparently. I was addressing YOU. What would YOU do if you found that to be the case?


If my brain had convinced me that ANY given, otherwise harmless, treatment made me feel better, of course I'd take it. Is this a trick question?

I have a half full bottle of Green Roads CBD oil sitting on my kitchen counter right next the fish oil. I took it for 3 months to see if it would help my wrist arthritis. It didn't. Completely useless, although I thought it was a worthwhile experiment despite the waste of $140.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I personally have no vested interested in CBD oil, or any other products of the plant from which it is derived. But, I wish it was moved off the Schedule 1 list so it could actually be studied properly. 

As an example, my dog gets anxious in the car. He'll sit there and just pant the entire time. His heart rate gets elevated. Stop and go traffic makes it worse. He's a herding dog, so he has pretty amazing endurance, but a 2hr car ride will wipe him out as if he'd been running for 10 miles. The local pet supply place (I'm in CO) had some CBD-laden dog biscuits that one of the employees claimed really helped her dog. $10, so I figured why not try it.

No discernable difference in his behavior. I also noted that the package didn't include any information re: dosing, ingredients, etc. Not particularly surprising given its current classification, which is one of the many reasons I'd like to see that changed. I think a lot of people are throwing money at something with no real proof that it works, but convincing themselves that it does.


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

cjcrawford said:


> In my case, give me the drug that energizes me and makes me lucid (haven't found it yet)


Perfect description of Adderall, an amphetamine.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

My wife has terrible neuropathy in her feet, and the most relief she can obtain, after trying ALL of the 'main' drugs for this condition, is one companies version of highly concentrated CBD in topical form. She can't tolerate any thc, so this not only does the trick, for 6-8 hours per dose/application, but she isn't bothered by any "stoner" effects, which really make her uncomfortable in our age category.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

DavidBarker said:


> I don't take CBD personally, but a good friend of mine suffers with significant anxiety and panic attacks. I recently found some information about cbd syrup improving anxiety levels, and am really hoping it would work for him. Anyone use CBD for anxiety?


Best thing is to try it. There are varieties with thc that work well too. Ask a medical pot pro... they get a lot of feedback.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

tfinator said:


> I have a lot of respect for doctors, but really nurses more.
> 
> I am on the financial side of 'the biz' as you say. Unfortunately what you're saying is not true.
> 
> ...


I have worked with many medical providers and for the most part I find these folks to be hard working and caring.

The few that I have met who are "less caring" seem to be more self centered and focused on meeting their own needs, but then this is the case for some people whether they are medical providers or anything else.

If you think about what attracts people to the medical field, there has to be a desire to help people, otherwise they just don't stay in practice long.

Outside of all this discussion are the folks who just aren't all that skilled at what they do, which is not uncommon. I have no idea how to address this issue as it's been my experience that even the most well meaning provider can just not be all that good.

There's an old saying I learned in the Peace Corps: People are people wherever you go.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> ... I wish it was moved off the Schedule 1 list so it could actually be studied properly.


The DEA Controlled Substance Schedule is whacked, opiates and benzos can be called in and refilled up to six months (Sched 4), but stimulants (Sched 2) require a hard copy script or escribe and can only be filled for three months. Benzos and opiates are far more addictive and abused than stimulants and they are far more lethal in overdose.

Then there's a plethora of stuff that is Sched 1 or illegal (Hallucinogenics) yet the more serious stuff (alcohol and tobacco) that is absolutely addictive and has no known medical benefit, is uncontrolled other than requiring the buyer to be a certain age.

There's history behind how certain things came to be controlled, sadly it's harder to declassify or change the schedule than it is to control something from the start.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> There's history behind how certain things came to be controlled, sadly it's harder to declassify or change the schedule than it is to control something from the start.


The history behind Cannabis prohibition is insane and in no small part, also due to racism.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

chuckha62 said:


> The history behind Cannabis prohibition is insane and in no small part, also due to racism.


Everything humans do is impacted by some "ism", it is apparently human nature to judge people differently based on appearances.

I'd like to think we can change, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> Everything humans do is impacted by some "ism", it is apparently human nature to judge people differently based on appearances.
> 
> I'd like to think we can change, but I'm not holding my breath.


J. Billington Bulworh had the answer. "Free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction."


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

I chuckle at the "it's all in the mind" mentality. I think the number of people this stuff has indubitably helped rather puts the lie to this notion.

There is also a huge amount of ignorance about correct dosing, and what type to use for which ailment. I suggest going to a reputable company and getting knowledge from them. I can personally attest that Lazarus Naturals are such a company. They will put anyone on the right track. 

It is no good to simply buy a bottle of whatever at the grocery store, then glug a little or a lot in the hope for an instant cure.


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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

chuckha62 said:


> The history behind Cannabis prohibition is insane and in no small part, also due to racism.


I didn't want to be a jerk and respond with negative rep, so ... the racism claim is bullshit. FWIW


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

elder_mtber said:


> I didn't want to be a jerk and respond with negative rep, so ... the racism claim is bullshit. FWIW


In 1937 Harry Anslinger was the driving force behind the Marihuana Tax Act. He most definitely did promote the notion that the drug was evil and largely a Mexican/African American issue which was causing the spread of Reefer Madness to the good people of this country. In his mind, and promoted also by him, pot was the root cause for the evil of jazz music, an African American import also. His reactionary and entirely spurious views were reflected in the recorded arrests for Marihuana in the years following the Tax Act. Mostly people of color. A trend which continues to this day.
To say that racism is not a part of the anti pot movement is about as spurious as the claim that jazz music is evil!


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## roadkill401 (Mar 14, 2017)

I will say that I have not read every post here in the thread. Sorry if it has been asked and answered many times, but I am looking for advice.

As canibus is now legal here in Canada, I splurged and bought a couple of bottles of CBD oil. Solei - 9.7mg/ml (0.5mg of THC), so I guess there is a bit of the hippy high compound inside but hopefully not enough to have any effect.

I suffered a major head trauma some 15 years ago while cycling home from a long ride. Seems some people don't understand what traffic lights are for and ended up kissing the bumper, bonnet windshield then thrown off and hit again by a minivan. Lost quite a bit of cognative processing, but worst is I get really frequent migraine attacks. I've just about given up on the medical system to come up with a solution and figure I'd give CBD a try.


As someone who has never tried it before, I figure I'd ask what is the best method to figure out if it's doing anything. What protocol of taking it should I look into taking? I figure I'd start off with a lower dose product (as it costs far less initial outlay of cash) and build up.

What dosage would you start off at? How often/when is it best to take? 

My thought is that I've suffered with migraine attacks since the accident, and they just seem to get more common and intense as the years go on. The regular medications prescribed most times don't work and can have viscous side effects on me. I will give CBD a good 3-4 month run to see if it can help. I am also going to assume it's not going to be an instant cure but something that might build up over time. Any points of wisdom is much appreciated.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

There's a Facebook group: CBD oil users group. If you are on F'bok, this group has a lot of good info from people who are active users and have seen results. 
The key is indeed to start low and work up til you get your 'sweet spot' as they say. You must make sure you get your stuff from a reputable place tho, I use Lazarus, but Charlotte's Web are good too. There are so many small companies that have sprung up with little oversight, so beware. Any CBD product is measured by the amount of CBD content by mg. I always get the strongest because I use a fair bit, but even for a starter, this is OK because you just take less. 

Check that group and ask questions...


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

Lazarus. That's a clever name. My wife, after trying several cad sources, is a San San client now. It's a small outfit, run by a Nurse Practitioner, but she does a great job of choosing the dosage and dosing schedule for her. The peripheral neuropathy in her feet is gone for 6 hours or so when she uses the topical on them. Pretty impressive.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Radium said:


> Lazarus. That's a clever name. My wife, after trying several cad sources, is a San San client now. It's a small outfit, run by a Nurse Practitioner, but she does a great job of choosing the dosage and dosing schedule for her. The peripheral neuropathy in her feet is gone for 6 hours or so when she uses the topical on them. Pretty impressive.


Very cool! That they have someone advising on dosage etc...


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I feel the same about gas station CBD as I do about gas station sushi. Its just not the right place to be getting it. 

Marijuana-derived CBD is much more strictly controlled for quality and purity. Its still not federally legal, so you do need a dispensary to buy it, but its worth it. Hemp cbd can be grown in a toxic waste dumpster for all we know. 

Like what was already mentioned, some CBD products might not actually contain any cbd at all. Its worth making sure its been lab tested for levels of CBD and contaminants.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

I wonder if anyone is trying CBD to combat the symptoms of COVID-19
It does reduce inflammation in the lungs of asthma patients, maybe it would do the same for COVID.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Scientific research and controlled studies is whats needed to see the effectiveness but it looks promising.


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

One Pivot said:


> I feel the same about gas station CBD as I do about gas station sushi. Its just not the right place to be getting it.
> 
> Marijuana-derived CBD is much more strictly controlled for quality and purity. Its still not federally legal, so you do need a dispensary to buy it, but its worth it. Hemp cbd can be grown in a toxic waste dumpster for all we know.
> 
> Like what was already mentioned, some CBD products might not actually contain any cbd at all. Its worth making sure its been lab tested for levels of CBD and contaminants.


That is why I keep saying to make sure you get it from a reputable company that has been around, and has some independent testing results available. I use Lazarus because I now get a 60% discount they offer to vets and those with chronic illness, but there are other good companies that have been around a while.


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

elder_mtber said:


> I didn't want to be a jerk and respond with negative rep, so ... the racism claim is bullshit. FWIW











https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_drugs


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

In an earlier post, I mentioned that CBD cream seemed to work on my elbow. Lately. I've been getting really bad arthritis pain in the first 2 fingers of my off (right) hand. After 3-4 weeks, one finger is about 80% pain free and the other one (the real bad one) is at least 50% better. I'm happy.


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## rob214 (Apr 18, 2019)

I find that the cream works, somewhat and I've been doing the drops for 6 months and find no benefit, when I run out of the drops I won't buy more.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

dbhammercycle said:


> there has been extensive research studies on the marijuana plant for quite a while. Some of which were carried out in govt labs and there is no reason to share their results.
> 
> Blame Nixon for wanting to get political dissidents (hippies) off the streets, into jails and away from the polls. Granted, the madness was already there as mentioned, but it was a politically motivated action to list is as a schedule 1 drug.





rockerc said:


> In 1937 Harry Anslinger was the driving force behind the Marihuana Tax Act.In his mind, and promoted also by him, pot was the root cause for the evil of jazz music, an African American import also
> To say that racism is not a part of the anti pot movement is about as spurious as the claim that jazz music is evil!
> 
> View attachment 1313263







...


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## richardparker20 (Dec 3, 2020)

CBD is an illegal drug with no redeeming value. It is also a useful prescription medicine for epilepsy, with considerable potential for treating numerous other conditions. And it is a natural dietary supplement or ‘nutraceutical’ with countless evangelists in the health and wellness community. Although contradictory, all three statements are true from different perspectives, and clinical researchers are frustrated.


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## LenSanchez (Apr 29, 2021)

roadkill401 said:


> I will say that I have not read every post here in the thread. Sorry if it has been asked and answered many times, but I am looking for advice.
> 
> As canibus is now legal here in Canada, I splurged and bought a couple of bottles of CBD oil. Solei - 9.7mg/ml (0.5mg of THC), so I guess there is a bit of the hippy high compound inside but hopefully not enough to have any effect.
> 
> ...


Hi, not sure if you're already taking a CBD brand. Just in case you're still looking for something that's worth trying, I'd like to recommend the broad spectrum CBD products of Calmr. Whether you want something ingestible or topical, or just want to start off at low dosage, they have the products that you need. Their organic CBD oil or softgel can help you deal with your migraine attacks since their formulation supports relaxing and calm experience.


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