# 1991 Raleigh John Tomac signature



## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

My latest build. Pretty close to the exact 1991 World Cup, Norba, and world champion bike.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

I just about passed out.
This post made my day!


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

ohhhh yes. now thats nice. good work! exceptionally rare frame. 
lucky you ;P

let me know if you ever need to sell 

ta

scant


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> My latest build. Pretty close to the exact 1991 World Cup, Norba, and world champion bike.


That's really nice!


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

*tell us the whole story please.*

how, when... all the intrigue, characters. afer all, this is THE retro classic thread cause this is THE bike (same as the one ridden by THE man. sorry for the dribble but this is too much for me.)


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*A cool thing has been done . . .*



Fillet-brazed said:


> My latest build. Pretty close to the exact 1991 World Cup, Norba, and world champion bike.


That's AWESOME!!! Nice work on this ultra-fine retro restore.

(still wipping the drool from my laptop screen . . . )

"Once a cool thing has been done, it can not be undone!"

- Tread the movie

-mtnwing


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

So, uh...how's it ride? Have you put down some miles on it or will she be a garage queen? Both places are justified for it.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> So, uh...how's it ride? Have you put down some miles on it or will she be a garage queen? Both places are justified for it.


If it's meant to be ridden on the trail, we should meet up for a retro-ride with the D.L. and E.R. both riding tension disks. I'll be the odd-man out!


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

laffeaux said:


> If it's meant to be ridden on the trail, we should meet up for a retro-ride with the D.L. and E.R. both riding tension disks. I'll be the odd-man out!


Works for me. DL might have more than one...I could always build up one of my 'spare' discs just for you (if I find a hub)....but what bike would you put it on?
We'd be quite loud and look pretty funny with all the discs going on.

I beat the piss out of the dark T-disc and it held up fine...I just hear so many sad stories of those things blowing up. I'd be riding with more 'finesse' than usual.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Works for me. DL might have more than one...I could always build up one of my 'spare' discs just for you (if I find a hub)....but what bike would you put it on?
> We'd be quite loud and look pretty funny with all the discs going on.
> 
> I beat the piss out of the dark T-disc and it held up fine...I just hear so many sad stories of those things blowing up. I'd be riding with more 'finesse' than usual.


If you build up an extra tension disk, I'll put it on my older Yeti and ride that.

Speaking of "finesse" (or lack there of), on Monday's climb up the Table Mountain single-track I managed to hit evary log and rock with my front wheel. I must have dabbed 15 times during the climb. I need some lesons on riding smooth.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

laffeaux said:


> If you build up an extra tension disk, I'll put it on my older Yeti and ride that.
> 
> Speaking of "finesse" (or lack there of), on Monday's climb up the Table Mountain single-track I managed to hit evary log and rock with my front wheel. I must have dabbed 15 times during the climb. I need some lesons on riding smooth.


  You mean dab like this?:


















We'll have a 'skills' day at Skeggs then.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> You mean dab like this?


I think that falling off the back of your bike is certainly a dab. As long as you only look at the first pic, it looks like I did fine.


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## First Flight (Jan 25, 2004)

*Here's a little newer version*

1993 version @ http://www.firstflightbikes.com/Tomac.htm

I don't think the bike was ever ridden and it came with all manuals.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

First Flight said:


> 1993 version @ http://www.firstflightbikes.com/Tomac.htm
> 
> I don't think the bike was ever ridden and it came with all manuals.


Such a fine example Jeff. Where did you find/how did you end up with it?

Although, I have to say, DL's is not a replica. That ups the cool factor in a different way.


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## @dam (Jan 28, 2004)

I know they had Tomac's original hanging from the ceiling in "NikeTown" in Portland for quite a few years. I wonder if they still have it.

Man...that was my dream bike in high school, but it was 2-3x as expensive as ANYTHING else on the market at the time. Too cool. I wonder why Raleigh stopped making high end bikes.

So, what did it cost you to build? I wonder what an orignal goes for?

Also...I just noticed- that Tioga stem looks to have the same retention system as a modern Thomson stem.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*The Eagle's Old Jet Wings . . .*



First Flight said:


> 1993 version @ http://www.firstflightbikes.com/Tomac.htm
> 
> I don't think the bike was ever ridden and it came with all manuals.


I think both are beautiful and pristine retro examples of the Tomac legacy. Neat to see how specs changed over time.

Gotta love all those old rare Tioga parts on the 1993. AND equally enjoyable is that first generation XTR adorned on the bike/rider that first tested it before us mortals got a chance to buy and ride it!

I'll be counting Carbon/Ti Ralieghs jumping over a log fence as fall asleep tonight!

-mtnwing


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*to bed with a smile!*



mtnwing said:


> I think both are beautiful and pristine retro examples of the Tomac legacy. Neat to see how specs changed over time.
> 
> Gotta love all those old rare Tioga parts on the 1993. AND equally enjoyable is that first generation XTR adorned on the bike/rider that first tested it before us mortals got a chance to buy and ride it!
> 
> ...


I'll sleep well tonight.

one Tomac Raleighs (passing Tinker on the downhill)

two Tomac Raleighs (dusting Frischknecht on steep uphill)

three Tomac Raleighs (toasting HB on a hairy descent)

four Tomac Raleighs (just looking cool chillin' at his box van w/Bob G the killer retro-mechanic)

five Tomac Raleighs (lookin fast just standing still . . . )

zzzzzzz xxx zzzzzzz xxx zzzzzz xxx zzzzzzzz

-mtnwing


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

*numbers, geometry...*

if i remember:20in st c-t, 23.5 tt, 73/ 72, 42 wb...and it looks like a 16.9 cs. am i right? 
it sems tomac rode a "big" bike. like frishknecht. or was it they didn't care for showing lots of seatpost? while everybody is obsessing with short bikes..


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Hopefully today is the maiden voyage. Sadly enough Ive gotta be a bit easy on it because of the irreplacable aspect to it, but I am gonna ride it. I just cant rail it like it was meant to be. It'll be a part time garage queen and part time trail rider. Cant wait to hear that distinct disc sound that, in the past, meant Tomac was coming! Its just a tad big for me, I normally hav e a 23" top tube. Im curious to see how she rides.

Thanks all for the nice comments, Ive always wanted one of these since 91. This Merlin-made model is supposedly one of 4-5 frames made specifically for Johnny T. I thought Id never see one. Now I get to go ride it! I really like that first generation XTR a lot too. Should be fun.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Not bad! Ya, I think its 20" center to top of top tube and 20.5" center to top. I havent measured the wheelbase but I think everything else is right on.

Yes, Frishy and Tomac used level top tube bikes and maybe slightly bigger bikes through the early 90s. Frishy still actually does. I guess they like the longer top tube and a bit longer front center. See Frishy's 2003 bikes here: http://www.frischknecht.ch/main.htm The FS has a slope to it but the hardtail doesnt have much. Not much seatpost showing there. The new Scott Genius also has very little slope if any.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Good one! I think good ol' Nedly deserves atleast a verse too.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

colker1 said:


> how, when... all the intrigue, characters. afer all, this is THE retro classic thread cause this is THE bike (same as the one ridden by THE man. sorry for the dribble but this is too much for me.)


Well, its an actual race bike of THE aforementioned man. I got the hookup through a friend of a friend. I feel quite lucky to have picked it up. I also got that 87 "Mongoose" made by Fat Chance and a few other items from him. Needless to say Im a Tomac fan. Nobody could ride a bike like him. Michael Jordan I think is on a similar level in my book. Anyway, enough of that.

Regarding the build, the things that arent accurate to his 91 setup:

The blue 92 stickers stuck over the 91green ones. Im a bit worried to take them off as the original green ones might not look too good.....

The rear tire is a Psycho which I think came out around 92?? Should be a Tioga Hound Dog or Mud Dog.

Handlebars are not Tioga.

It doesnt have the Control Tech bar ends.

Oh, and that disc wheel is a bit newer as well. The 91 model is the dark blue one.

Other than those things, its pretty close to his exact setup.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

*Tomes 91 picture?*



Fillet-brazed said:


> Well, its an actual race bike of THE aforementioned man. I got the hookup through a friend of a friend. I feel quite lucky to have picked it up. I also got that 87 "Mongoose" made by Fat Chance and a few other items from him. Needless to say Im a Tomac fan. Nobody could ride a bike like him. Michael Jordan I think is on a similar level in my book. Anyway, enough of that.
> 
> Regarding the build, the things that arent accurate to his 91 setup:
> 
> ...


Do you have a 91 pic of Tomac you can post? It would be neet to see your rebuild and a pic of Tomes in 91 side by side!

-mtnwing


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

I purchased one of the ti/carbon frames from the southeastern raleigh rep in 1996. It seems that raleigh still had 20 of them. Picked it up for $750 and raced it hard for 3 months until it got stolen...


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

OH! soo nice, thats one (ok the) fav bikes. sooo nice to see.

ahve some questions for the people who know, i used to have some mags with reveiws, but they were in the back of a mates car when it got totalled :-( grrr!

there the origianl? green one then later the blue one, from some of the pics i have tomac ran rock shox on the green and according to the massive poster hanging over my bed he ran blue tioga (shiowa) forks and time pedals and shoes later. have i got it right? what intrime changes were there? where can i get reviews?

keep up the good retro work fellas. Cool!!


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

FB, I'd be real interested to see pics of the FAT/ mongoose if you can post them up?



ta

scant


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

mik_git said:


> OH! soo nice, thats one (ok the) fav bikes. sooo nice to see.
> 
> ahve some questions for the people who know, i used to have some mags with reveiws, but they were in the back of a mates car when it got totalled :-( grrr!
> 
> ...


IIRC, the bike pictured at the top of this thread...is the same frame with blue decals placed over the green one's...DL can correct me on this.

It seems Tomac ran the Manitous, the gold Mag's, the Judy, the Tioga/Shiowa, the every fork on this bike....

Although, I thought he ran the Manitou first on the green bike, then the Mag20/21's on the green decaled bike....I don't recall seeing the Manitou's on the blue decaled bike...
Did I miss something?


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

I'd like to see a big bike shoot out, old v new get some old models and put them up against new bikes. ie old yeti arc v new, klein attitude, tomac taos v manitou HT v tomac signature. things like that, through in a few XC FS bikes and see how they all compare, changes improvements thats sort of thing. or has it been done??


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> IIRC, the bike pictured at the top of this thread...is the same frame with blue decals placed over the green one's...DL can correct me on this.
> 
> It seems Tomac ran the Manitous, the gold Mag's, the Judy, the Tioga/Shiowa, the every fork on this bike....
> 
> ...


Here she is in her 1991 green glory.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Here she is in her 1991 green glory.


Took the blues off then huh? I like it...didn't think I would (blue matches my eyes)...but, that's still just such a cool resto job!


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Took the blues off then huh? I like it...didn't think I would (blue matches my eyes)...but, that's still just such a cool resto job!


Ya, the blue ones were put on over the original green ones for the '92 season (the green stickers are clearcoated over) and they came off with a heat gun pretty quick.


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## Blizzard (Oct 8, 2004)

That is a sweet Tomac.

I have a Mud Dawg around somewhere (used) if you are interested in it. Not really looking to sell it, but it belongs on this bike if that's what's original, if my post is inappropriate, please pull it.

JW


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

*ok, can I confirm something..*

. "This Merlin-made model is supposedly one of 4-5 frames made specifically for Johnny T"

which is what I've always thought. so thats right yeh? the 5 proto/ early frames & the later models were made by litespeed (easiest way to tell the difference being the dropouts)

litespeed having the characteristic 2 hole design. Am I right?


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

once again... these are soooooooooooo nice...


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

scant said:


> . "This Merlin-made model is supposedly one of 4-5 frames made specifically for Johnny T"
> 
> which is what I've always thought. so thats right yeh? the 5 proto/ early frames & the later models were made by litespeed (easiest way to tell the difference being the dropouts)
> 
> litespeed having the characteristic 2 hole design. Am I right?


FB will be able to shed some light on the 'proto' frames...I wouldn't think them to be Litespeed.

All the later ones are for sure Litespeed made (and have the Litespeed decal on the wishbone). They also have a serial number on the der. side dropout, and a marking on the underside of the BB. So I've heard.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

question for htose that actually own/ride/ridden these tomac frames, what are they like, i remeber MBA and moutain biking raving and saying they were the best ever... back in 93... are they that good? and how do they last...

hehe maybe raleigh should do a nike... in fact get to gether with nike (link there) and do a retro....like jordans... not likely, but hey i like the idea


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

scant said:


> . "This Merlin-made model is supposedly one of 4-5 frames made specifically for Johnny T"
> 
> which is what I've always thought. so thats right yeh? the 5 proto/ early frames & the later models were made by litespeed (easiest way to tell the difference being the dropouts)
> 
> litespeed having the characteristic 2 hole design. Am I right?


Im not sure I understand what youre asking. What 5 prototype/early frames are you talking about? As far as I know Merlin made the first round of frames. Tomac had worked with Merlin even when he was with Mongoose the last year in 89. That ti Mongoose frame was a Merlin. I actually just heard this Mongoose info from Mike Augsperger not too long ago. So Tomac had a relationship with Fat Chance in 87-88 (Mike A was there at the time) and then with Merlin. I think Raleigh went with Litespeed to cut costs on the production model and then Johnny started using those as well in 93 and 94. But ya, there were 5-6 Merlins. One was stolen in Europe at a World Cup. Johnny still has one too. The Merlins were race bikes in 91 and 92.


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

I just wanted to make sure that the originals were merlin made & the later models were litespeed (& not the other way around)

interesting that he rode both versions. where there any other differences other than the dropouts?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

scant said:


> I just wanted to make sure that the originals were merlin made & the later models were litespeed (& not the other way around)
> 
> interesting that he rode both versions. where there any other differences other than the dropouts?


The geometry is all the same, but there are slight structural and cosmetic differences. The Merlin uses a thicker monostay tube, and different cable guides and of course the different finish. The Litespeed has a pretty slim monostay tube. The Merlin is really a pretty bike and looks a bit nicer in workmanship in my opinion. The Litespeed is just slightly lighter. Both have the same Easton C9 carbon tubing on the front triangle.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Im not sure I understand what youre asking. What 5 prototype/early frames are you talking about? As far as I know Merlin made the first round of frames. Tomac had worked with Merlin even when he was with Mongoose the last year in 89. That ti Mongoose frame was a Merlin. I actually just heard this Mongoose info from Mike Augsperger not too long ago. So Tomac had a relationship with Fat Chance in 87-88 (Mike A was there at the time) and then with Merlin. I think Raleigh went with Litespeed to cut costs on the production model and then Johnny started using those as well in 93 and 94. But ya, there were 5-6 Merlins. One was stolen in Europe at a World Cup. Johnny still has one too. The Merlins were race bikes in 91 and 92.


I think we're missing something though...there are the prototype frames (5-6 of them) that are Merlin built. But there also had to be some production Merlin built 'Signature' models as well, right? Few...but some?
And then the Litespeed made frames. I will say that the Litespeed frames are fragile! 

When did you talk to Mike FB?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> I think we're missing something though...there are the prototype frames (5-6 of them) that are Merlin built. But there also had to be some production Merlin built 'Signature' models as well, right? Few...but some?
> And then the Litespeed made frames. I will say that the Litespeed frames are fragile!
> 
> When did you talk to Mike FB?


I dont think there were any production Merlins. They were just made for Tomac's race needs. Like the MBA test bike posted somewhere here, it had the 91 stickers like the Merlin but it was really a Litespeed if you looked at it.

Ive got to take some pics tonight, I'll try and snap some of the differences between the Merlin and Litespeed.

I talked to Mike a few weeks ago about cutting threads on a ti fork.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I dont think there were any production Merlins. They were just made for Tomac's race needs. Like the MBA test bike posted somewhere here, it had the 91 stickers like the Merlin but it was really a Litespeed if you looked at it.
> 
> Ive got to take some pics tonight, I'll try and snap some of the differences between the Merlin and Litespeed.
> 
> I talked to Mike a few weeks ago about cutting threads on a ti fork.


That would mean that all the Merlin frames were accounted for...


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Is this a Merlin frame then?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

mik_git said:


> question for htose that actually own/ride/ridden these tomac frames, what are they like, i remeber MBA and moutain biking raving and saying they were the best ever... back in 93... are they that good? and how do they last...
> 
> hehe maybe raleigh should do a nike... in fact get to gether with nike (link there) and do a retro....like jordans... not likely, but hey i like the idea


Its really a great bike. Ive only taken it on actual rides twice. It has a great lively feel, and felt very fast. Ive ridden lots of bikes and I was impressed by this one. A very fun bike to ride. I really wish I could ride it more!


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Is this a Merlin frame then?
> 
> Yep. This one is in the bay area right? I mentioned this one to Tomac and he didnt know there were any other Merlins besides his. Hmmm. Maybe this is the stolen mystery bike.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Rumpfy said:
> 
> 
> > Is this a Merlin frame then?
> ...


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Yup. I emailed him to get more info on where that frame came from...could be a gold mine!
> 
> what do you mean, a race bike chop shop?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Rumpfy said:
> 
> 
> > Yup. I emailed him to get more info on where that frame came from...could be a gold mine!
> ...


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

*One of my favorite bikes.*



Fillet-brazed said:


> Here she is in her 1991 green glory.


Good catch!


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

if anyone knows of a raleigh replica for sale (straight or even broken!) I'd be very interested


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

scant said:


> if anyone knows of a raleigh replica for sale (straight or even broken!) I'd be very interested


You may have some stiff competition for your search I would imagine!


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

its been done before ;D


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

scant said:


> its been done before ;D


By the quick and the very, very lucky!


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

is it just me? or does that JTR with none standard tomac spec bits just feel weird? 
not saying it looks bad (far from it!).. its a bit like seeing michael jordan wearing reeboks thats all! (maybe not a great example but you get the idea!

I remeber reading a mountainbike mag test of the mag21sl tis & they fitted that fork to a JTR with a few altered parts. later saw that same magazine pic bike with <checks memory> hallerson inversion forks!

(eric we have to stop meeting like this ;D )


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

scant said:


> is it just me? or does that JTR with none standard tomac spec bits just feel weird?
> not saying it looks bad (far from it!).. its a bit like seeing michael jordan wearing reeboks thats all! (maybe not a great example but you get the idea!
> 
> I remeber reading a mountainbike mag test of the mag21sl tis & they fitted that fork to a JTR with a few altered parts. later saw that same magazine pic bike with <checks memory> hallerson inversion forks!
> ...


Yeah...it's not as I (personally) would build it. But I know that owner and he's a good guy.

Email, forum, email, forum...


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

I thought these threads might be applicable here 

http://www.greenwy.demon.co.uk/retro/tomac raleigh gold feb 92 page 1.jpg

http://www.greenwy.demon.co.uk/retro/tomac raleigh gold feb 92 page 2.jpg


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

scant said:


> I thought these threads might be applicable here
> 
> http://www.greenwy.demon.co.uk/retro/tomac raleigh gold feb 92 page 1.jpg
> 
> http://www.greenwy.demon.co.uk/retro/tomac raleigh gold feb 92 page 2.jpg


Thanks Scant!


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

no worries 

any chance of close up pics of the frame? 
I remeber seeing tomacs raleigh being cleaned on a stand after the (94?) grundig world cup in Plymouth UK where I was in uni.. tomac wasnt there.. still a small crowd of 20odd people gathered around his flilthy bike!
Had a quick look, surprised he wasnt running even a clear chainstay protector, chainstay was real scratched up!

could be memory playing tricks? but was the carbon tubing (esp on the bottom of the seattube) actually larger diameter than the ti lug?

I've got loads of pics (pretty good as well) of tomac, ned, tinker on that day.. have to get a scanner & load them up 

ta

scant


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

scant said:


> I've got loads of pics (pretty good as well) of tomac, ned, tinker on that day.. have to get a scanner & load them up


Please do!


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## JTNELSON (May 7, 2010)

Is South Seatac still open to riding, when I last left the MTB community, I remember there being some discussion to it being closed to bikers.


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## erkan (Jan 18, 2004)

Why not create a pathetic blog and market it there?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

JTNELSON said:


> I have a 1991 frame sticker kit for the tomac Signature model


Really? This was the thread to bring back from the dead and make your first post in?

I have shoes on.


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## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

erkan said:


> Why not create a pathetic blog and market it there?


I never actually went until you posted this...but quotes like



erkan said:


> I am a big fan of the Ringle H2O water bottle cage because it is such a great mountain bike product.


Don't help your cause much


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

I just like that both of you have me as your sig quotes. Thanks.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

haha. crackin up over here. the "I have shoes on" line and the Ringle bottle cage comment is great. 

Man this is an old thread.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Did he ever post pics of the tomac fat chance ?


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## mechagouki (Nov 30, 2007)

Hey! You guys! Someone just posted a Giant Iguana in another thread, no really! Lets light 'em up, and p*ss 'em out!


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

JTNELSON said:


> Is South Seatac still open to riding, when I last left the MTB community, I remember there being some discussion to it being closed to bikers.


It is still open.....I personally never saw the desire to ride there though. Full of garbage, Surveyors tape left behind from a million bike races (MTB community representation right there. why don't the people who put those races on clean up after themselves?) . Spray paint. Noise. Crackheads etc. I know a few people who have had their vehicles broke into while riding there.
Just wondering why this post is in the VRC section and not over on the Washington thread?


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