# First big bike: 26 vs 27.5 HT



## rabitoblanco (Feb 21, 2017)

Recommendations, please! 
Baby's broken the welded repair on his 24" FSR, and it's time for the next size in trail bike.

Rider stats: 4'6", 7yo and growing fast so far. 
Riding style: freeride, jumps and gnar. He likes to pump and jump off trail features, try all the drops, etc. 
*We'll probably be building a different bike (24") for dedicated DJ use. 
*I ride a Nukeproof Scout with 27.5 carbon wheels and I want him to ride something that is equally fun.

Budget: Something sub2, preferably closer to 1k. 
Weight: is not paramount, but preferably no more than 25lbs. The kid's 75lbs himself. 
Fav. place to ride:





There's a bunch of new 26" kids' bikes, some of which will fit 27.5 wheels. There's also XS or S adult frames, some of which have good geometry. 
There's the obvious 26" contenders from Spawn, when I love, Nukeproof's new Cub Scout. The 27.5 market makes my head spin-- I guess every manufacturer has a small hardtail?! 
I specifically want something with a short chainstay, and a reasonably slack head tube angle. It seems that most of the adult bikes are going from 65 to even less degrees for HTA, but the kids' bikes barely break 68.5--what's that about? 
I'm thinking hardtail to keep weight and price and complexity down, any arguments otherwise?

Thanks for any ideas,

Ridwan

Photo: on 12" frame Specialized FSR24








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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

I'm happy with the Commencal 27.5 we bought for our 55" tall, 75 lb, 9YO. However, it has 432mm chainstays and is about 30lbs, which may not be what you are looking for. My son is faster and more agile on it than he ever was on his Trek MT220, which was 28lbs and has 409mm chainstays.

Tire and tubes and wheels are particularly heavy, I think I can knock off 2 lbs with tires and tubeless and another 3 lbs with lighter wheels. Also when I weighed my 150mm Rockshox Pike on my hardtail, it was about 2000 grams, while the 150mm Recon RL on the Commencal is supposed to be about 2400 grams, so a fork swap knocks almost another pound, and something like a Manitou Markhor at 1700 grams knocks about 1.5 lbs. I have no plans on swapping forks at this point, the Recon RL works pretty well. I am going to do tires and tubeless but I'm not sure I'll swap wheels yet. He can climb every hill we have ridden so far, and he rarely gets into the 50 tooth cassette ring.

I had planned to buy the Nukeproof Scout Race originally but it was never in stock when I was looking. In hind sight, after watching him ride the 27.5, I don't believe there is a real benefit to the 26" tire compared to the 27.5" tire. Sure on paper there is a benefit, but on the trails in the real world, I just don't see it. We also looked at the Spawn Yama Jama 26 and Trailcraft 26, Specialized Fuse 27.5, Giant ATX, Trek X-Caliber, and the Trailcraft Big Mesa, which is a 26" plus bike, but for $150 it was upgradable to the Stans Crest 27.5 wheel.

The Trailcraft and Spawn 26" bikes are barely larger than his old MT220. This is also true of the Nukeproof 26" bikes.

The Giant ATX was a piece of junk.

The Trek X-Caliber fit well and was the same price as the Commencal but it had junk fork and wheels and tires given the price and ultra long cranks.

The Specialized Fuse 27.5 fit well but was $50 more, and had 2.8" tires and i40 wheels, as well as ultra long cranks and fork of equivalent performance to the Commencal.

Our bottom line decision was between the Commencal Meta HT Junior and the Trailcraft Big Mesa with 27.5 tires. When I spoke to Brett at Trailcraft on the phone, he said we could choose tires, either Vittoria Peyote or I think Schwalbe Rocket Rons. Bike weight on the Big Mesa was about 25 lbs in 27.5" configuration and it came with a Judy fork which was nicer than the Recon fork. It however has a steep head tube angle and shorter wheelbase than the Commencal. I liked the weight of the Big Mesa but the geometry of the Commencal, and my son wanted the red color, and color was the most important buying decision for a 9YO, and I can't really change the frame but I can swap components.

The Commencal is heavier and longer so my son does have problems with wheelies, but frankly, he will figure that out as he gets older and larger. His overall riding and jumping have improved significantly, and rollover with the 27.5 tires is way better than the 24" tires.

Another reason we bought him the Commencal 27.5 instead of the 26, is because with his QR135 rear dropout and boost fork, everything on his bike is swappable to my own hardtail should we ever need to do so. I am going to a NX 1x12 kit on my hardtail and everything will just move right over and back should we ever want/need to. Actually I'll probably put the NX on his bike and swap the SX to my bike since my hardtail has mostly become a greenway bike. Given that it's now a greenway bike, maybe I should just swap the Pike over also. Basically any upgrade we do to the Commencal can be directly installed on my hardtail, and likely that will be his next bike when he gets to a medium size frame (5"-6" from now?).

Anyway I hope this helps.


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## thecreeper23 (Jun 28, 2013)

When our son needed to move up we looked at a Trailcraft, but ended up building him a bike based off a XS Juliana Nevis frame. I think either route would have been fine, but at the time we were figuring things out, chainreaction was clearancing Fox 32 SC forks and we lucked into a lightly used 27.5 wheelset with Hope hubs--so the decision was easy to build one up. We did get the Trailcraft crankset for the bike, which is great. He's been on the bike most of a year and loves it.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I like the idea of finding a light hardtail frame/complete used. I've seen kids ripping on Pivot Les 27.5 which would be pretty ideal (maybe slacken it a bit with headset). They are freaking expensive tho.

The size small FS bikes are out there. You might just find a nice one of those for under 2k on pinkbike and call it good. If it ends up being too big, you drop 380$ on some custom 26" wheels at SpeedBikeGear and some 155mm cranks...then call it good. As the kid grows a bit you can throw on the 27.5 up front mullet style or maybe both 27.5 wheels. You'll likely get a much nicer bike with much nicer components. Kids bikes at 20" and 24" are pretty dialed simply because OEM's are making higher end kids components at that level (Manitou etc). But there isn't anything at that level for kids at 27.5" and def not 26"...its just the adult stuff. Which is fine...but you can get it at a massive discount used. Especially because size Small isn't a high demand size like medium so the premium is even less.

look at this: Full Carbon Scott Scale 2018 new with Warranty for 1250 USD. Its silly. Its local pickup in Alberta only but interesting nontheless. You'll have budget room for new cranks or bars or whatever. Maybe some other shops have stuff like this.

https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2666249/

Lots more of those in-stock in US. Maybe you could pick up or get one to BikeFlight it to you. 1500$
https://www.bikeexchange.com/s/hardtail-mountain-bikes/scott

Carbon Giant 2015 (a little old) is in nice condition. FS with Fox and Shimano DT 1800$:
https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2713539/

This 2017 Carbon FS Habit is pretty sick 1800$ and will ship. Mabe a touch heavy? Hard to say. You can throw a Debonair Air spring in the Pike (super critical for kids low PSI) for 40$ if it don't have already. Has a dropper...seriously kids love these. It makes life so much nicer for them. The color is dope. It looks mint. He'll BikeFlight it which is cheap shipping too (for bikes at least). I haven't looked at the Geo but I'm guessing its past gen geo (shorter) which is nice for kids. Reach is around 390mm with CS at 429mm.
https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2751674/

"2017 Cannondale Habit Carbon SE
Size S, purple, 27.5 wheels
Upgraded to Sram GX 1x12
All other major components are what the bike came stock.
Fork: RockShox Pike RC boost 130 mm
Rear: Fox Float DPS 120 mm
Fox dropper post.
I can ship within Continental U.S. using BikeFlight and you pay for shipping costs (I will box bike)."

Review: (was a 4k$ bike)
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/cannondale-habit-carbon-se-review.html

HT option is this Scott Scale 710 frame (S): (you'd need a decent parts bin to make budget work I'd guess)
https://www.donsbikeshop.com/product/scott-scott-scale-710-frame-22846.htm


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

I sat my 55" tall kid on some small adult bikes and I thought the size small was too big. The extra small fit him well, maybe a tiny bit too large, but when he is 56"-57" the XS will be perfect and I think he will be able to ride it until he is 60"-62". My wife is 61" tall and she is just a little bit too big for the XS, but we could swap the stem for longer and put on some riser bars for the last year of use.


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## In2falling (Jan 1, 2005)

Just got 10 year old boy a xtra-small Embolden, makes for great kids bike. His is 4' 10'' and its a little big, but will grow into it quickly.

https://www.liv-cycling.com/us/bikes-embolden


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Good point on sizing...I thought the kid was taller. 4"6" is towards the backend of a 24" bike still.

Bike sizing is all over the place these days. You'll notice that the Cannondale Habit 2017 Small size is actually shorter in reach and top tube length than the Embolden XS

Embolden XS: TTL - 465mm Reach - 404mm Chainstays - 435mm

2017 Habit Small: TTL - 440mm Reach - 391mm Chainstays - 429mm

Norco Fluid 3: TTL 421mm Reach 480mm Chainstays 431mm

Not that one bike is better than the other, just that sizing can be tricky for kids. Most 24" bikes around between 450-470mm of reach it seems. Moving to 391mm isn't a bad jump, tho I'm sure at his size, swapping to smaller wheels (26" aftermarket)/cranks (155mm) would make the fitment much better...which is actually a big deal imo.

We have a Giant Embolden from a couple of years ago, the spec sucked on it badly and I don't love the Single Pivot suspension...but the updated spec is pretty nice for that price. Very nice even. That fork looks to be WAY nicer than Rockshox silver my wife has.

The Norco Fluid 3 is a bit more expensive but has a dropper. The fork isn't as nice as the Giant bike but the geometry is certainly smaller in XS (not sure if too small or not). Smaller than the Habit too. The suspension isn't a single pivot either but a better 4bar-esk setup which is the same that they use on their higher end bikes. These bikes won't be light tho. If a Alum FS is interesting, Canyon has some sales on some now. They are all going to be 32+lbs iirc including these listed here.
https://www.norco.com/bikes/2020/mountain/trail/fluid-fs-aluminum/fluid-fs-3/

Norco Fluid HT is in your budget, not sure about the weight:
https://www.norco.com/bikes/2020/mountain/trail/fluid-ht-aluminum/fluid-ht-1/

The good news is that you should be able to actually put the kid on one of these at a LBS!

A neighbor kid swung by a couple of weeks ago and is about 4' 8" I think. He had the new Norco Sight Youth (basically a size small). It seemed to fit him well enough and I like that it has shorter chainstays (425mm) for sure.
https://www.norco.com/bikes/2020/youth/youth-all-mountain/sight-aluminum-youth/sight-275/

You could try looking for used/sale Last-Gen Norco bikes. They are special because they are one of the only companies to actually resize the rear end (chainstays) based on the size of the bike. So a size small/XS will have a more appropriate shorter backend. They don't do it for their Fluid value line tho. Last-Gen Optic would be a nice FS for a kid.


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## rabitoblanco (Feb 21, 2017)

Thank you all for so many considered responses! So much to think about, so I'm going to put some of it down here, hopefully useful for others going through the same exercise as well!

@svinyard Something you pointed out, he's not a big kid-- at 4'6, ... that means sizing is more of a factor than if he were 4'10", for e.g.

So the more I look into all the options, here's my takeaways right now:

1. FS is out of budget. Caveat: FS DH bike, so for proper gnar, he's sorted. 
For general life, there's just no reason for the weight penalty. Obviously, lesser weight ones exist, but they are more money. Anyway, HT=more boosting on jumps  
*that purple one's a gorgeous bike though, but massive CS figures, iirc 435mm?
2. The good deals on used 27s: I have to spend more time here. There's much to look through! Clearly some good deals, but matching geometries and sizes is necessary. 
3. Modern 26ers: short reach, and slacker head angles-- the smaller frame 27.5s don't seem to have commensurately smaller chainstays, generally (as aforementioned, the pricier stuff sometimes does). But even a smaller CS on an adult bike is maybe 430mm. 
The Nukeproof 26/Spawn YJ/Commencal Jr has CS lenghts of 420/415/432 ...I'm surprised by the Commencal's figure! But anyway, these have HTA's of 66/68/65.5 (this time surprised by Spawn). Also, reach numbers that are sub 400mm. 
The more I look at them, the more it looks like these new small 26s are aimed at my kid: he COULD still ride a 24... for maybe another year. Or he could ride a small 26 for another 2-3 years. With the latter he'll be able to ride over things more, and keep up easier (with adults on rides). 
But on most sizing charts, he isn't yet on the 27.5 XS, but he is right at the beginning of the 26ers. 
Hard choices between these: 
Cub Scout 26″ Race 2020 | Nukeproof
https://spawncycles.com/catalog/product/view/id/782/s/yama-jama-26-new/category/3/
https://www.commencalusa.com/meta-ht-junior-c2x29149157 --disqualified bc/ 430mm of CS
There's also the Vitus Nucleus 26, at closer to $600, but the drivetrain's **** and 430mm of CS also

@nobody: My son's currently on a Trek 220 (rigid, quill stem) . He did a couple of laps at the jumps the other day, and then literally chose to wait for my L sized Scout instead, haha . Your baby's surely stronger pushing that thing around! I'm glad the Commencal is working well for you--but both the weight and the CS sound like they would dampen my child's riding style: something I haven't yet developed myself, but I can see he's surely got!

Cheers, 
Ridwan


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

From my end it looks like you are def on track You are DEF right to consider CS length, my 4'4" kid is still on 24" with short chainstays and has to really hit it hard to full manual the thing. We have a manual machine and everything and he can throw short rolling manuals on his BMX etc but feels it on the 24" and can't hold it. I agree on the 26" hardtails, and you are def right they are great hardtails/DJ-esk fun. We still use our 20" spawn as a DJ after some riser bars. 

Go with Spawn I think.


Commencal - the fork sucks if I recall. its a budget fork. The Spawn fork will be better and is a 26" fork so the stack will fit better out of the box.

Cub Scout - this could compete with the Spawn but the wheels and tires are just to heavy and out of place. Big i30 wheels with heavy 2.5 minions will suck the fun out of those dirt jumpy sessions. 

Spawns house wheels have been nice for years and I'm guessing these i27 are as well. The 2.3 highroller2 will be a great all around tire without too much extra weight.

I think that 26" Reba fork is a big deal. Its a dedicated kids 26" fork with MC damper, kids tune from 60-100lbs and is 1647g. Its a big deal having a kids tune from our experience.


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

I also expected the Recon RL on the Commencal to be junk, but honestly, it works well enough that I have no longer have any plans to change it short term. At 70 psi it uses 130mm-140mm of the 150mm travel for a 75lb kid. That is about the same as what my 150mm Pike uses on my hardtail when we ride the same trails. Yes the Recon RL is a heavy fork compared to others but it has honestly been a good performer, believe me if it sucked I would not hold back. It is much better than I expected and I can't see that it performs really any worse than my "good" fork.

The Judy fork on the Yama Jama 26 is a non boost fork, just be aware of that. I'm sure it works very well since it is specifically valved for light weight riders and it is lighter than the Recon, however, you are probably comparing a fork which is 98% effective to a fork that is 95% effective. Do you really think your kid will notice that extra 3% and is it worth the additional buy in price?.

According to Rockshox docs the AC height on both forks being compared are the same at 514mm.

I have attached images of the reach and stack from when I was comparing the bikes before I bought one. I put all the geometry in the cad system so I look side by side with the rear axles lined up. Sometimes it is easier to visualize rather than look at numbers on a piece of paper. The stack and reach of the Yama Jama 26 are both larger than the Commencal Meta HT Junior 27.5 but the YJ26 has a lower bottom bracket and lower standover. The Nukeproof Cub Scout 26 reach and stack are roughly the same as the Meta HT Junior, and again lower BB and slightly standover.

Yes the chainstays on the Commencal are longer but at the same time the bottom bracket of the Commencal is 1.375" and 1.75" higher than the Spawn and Nukeproof, but requires an additional 1" in standover height. I'm going to be completely honest here and I don't mean to offend, but you guys are kidding yourselves if you think 5/8"-3/4" on a chainstay is going to absolutely stop your kid from manualing a bike. It makes it more challenging yes, but it does not make it impossible. If the kid wants to do it they will keep trying.

The front wheel/tire and fork weight as well as overall wheelbase is going be what really challenges them. Is a shorter chainstay better for manuals? Sure, on paper I agree. However the fact remains that the 26" kids bikes are not significantly shorter than the XS 27.5 bikes so any benefit of the shorter chainstay is marginal given the overall long wheelbase relative to the kid's weight and ability to put their butt back far enough given their leg length and the tire diameter. Really, my kid has not needed to manual over anything on the 27.5, he does a small bunny hop or small pull on the front wheel to transition the bike, and the bike goes over most everything he has hit. He was riding it up the three steps to our front porch a couple days ago, about which my wife was really not happy, but he could do it. No way that would happen on a 24, and only maybe on a 26, even if you could manual it pretty well. At least not for a 75lb kid.

I'm sure it sounds like I'm defending the Commencal, but honestly I really don't care if you buy one or buy something else. I have spent a lot of time looking at advice regarding kids bikes on this website, and I ride with my kids on trails 3 or 4 times per week ranging from 3 miles to 10 miles per ride, and have done so for a couple years now. What I have learned from experience does not always line up with the advice on MTBR, so my only intent is to make someone look further into a topic rather than take advice at face value.


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## rabitoblanco (Feb 21, 2017)

nobody special said:


> I have attached images of the reach and stack from when I was comparing the bikes before I bought one. I put all the geometry in the cad system so I look side by side with the rear axles lined up.


Much appreciate the comments, and the cool graphics! And I get you-- we all spend a lot of time on these decisions, but in the end actually MAKING that decision means you have some reason for that commitment, and I appreciate knowing what that is.

It's not that a shorter CS will make him manual vs. on a longer one he can't-- it's really that I've got my first modern geometry bike at the end of last year (Nukeproof Scout w/ 66 HTA, 425mmCS) and it feels an amazing difference from the older-school XC bikes I was riding. I still can't manual, but I got on this bike and finally, and immediately, understood by what these reviewers meant by "playful." So, I'm after that feeling for the kid as well. The decision is harder bc/ I'm trying to find some manner of playful and yet be bigger so able to roll over stuff. It's different from someone who posted the other day about how his kids are on 29s rolling over everything--my son would get bored of that in a quick minute...OR we'd have to keep finding bigger and more challenging trails  But I digress...

Thanks again for the thoughts.

Also in the consideration, the NX groupset in the Spawn is nicer than the rest, but the 68 HTA feels like they're due for a redesign soon! NP's is 66 and Commencal's is also around there. Then there's resale... I'm surely overthinking this.

Also, for an idea, this is our fav. place to ride: 





Also, the price differences: I figured if I get the NP or the Commencal, I'd just buy a set of lighter wheels. The weight diff. there is quite much, at 4ish lbs. And actually then the NP would end up lighter than the Spawn, as they start out at the same weight. Then again, since 26lbs is a perfectly reasonable weight, maybe I'd just save the $$ for a pair of 5/10s and some coaching!

Edit: just realized something--if I buy a non-boost 27.5, I can give him the carbon wheels off my bike!


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

rabitoblanco said:


> Much appreciate the comments, and the cool graphics! And I get you-- we all spend a lot of time on these decisions, but in the end actually MAKING that decision means you have some reason for that commitment, and I appreciate knowing what that is.
> 
> It's not that a shorter CS will make him manual vs. on a longer one he can't-- it's really that I've got my first modern geometry bike at the end of last year (Nukeproof Scout w/ 66 HTA, 425mmCS) and it feels an amazing difference from the older-school XC bikes I was riding. I still can't manual, but I got on this bike and finally, and immediately, understood by what these reviewers meant by "playful." So, I'm after that feeling for the kid as well. The decision is harder bc/ I'm trying to find some manner of playful and yet be bigger so able to roll over stuff. It's different from someone who posted the other day about how his kids are on 29s rolling over everything--my son would get bored of that in a quick minute...OR we'd have to keep finding bigger and more challenging trails  But I digress...
> 
> ...


We have bike park type jump lines around here but we don't really ride them. Within a 20 minute drive from our house we can get to five or six different places, either bandit trails or county owned trails, and all are very similar to the end of your video link where the one guy crashed. This is where we usually go because it is very close to the house. Lots of roots, lots of rocks, lots of climbing and descending mixed in, berms, gulleys, ditches, drops, fallen trees, small jumps and doubles. The doubles are typically about 3 ft high and have about 7-10 ft of flight distance to clear. He can clear many of the doubles but a few he will consistently case the rear tire. The flow line jumps in the beginning of the video look much larger but it is very hard to tell from video. We have a couple steep downhills but all are somewhat technical rather than flowy, IE off camber, switchbacks, jumps, all with roots and rocks in between. We are in the south east also so we usually have a mix of moist and loose conditions and have dry hard pack during certain times of the year. I'd say we are probably 70% loose and moist conditions though.

If your bike parts are swappable to the kids bike, then that is benefit. As I had mentioned we in the near future will be able to swap wheels/tires from my HT to his bike. That means we can mix and match with just a derailleur adjustment if we ever needed to do so.

Regarding the weight, honestly my son was riding a 28lb bike and went to a 30lb bike. He has not complained about it being heavier. At this point I believe parents care more about the weight of their kids bikes than the kids actually do. I had planned to buy new wheels at the recommendation of others, but after re-thinking, I want him to get tough and getting tough means not making it easier for him. He can crank up nearly every hill with the heavy wheels and tires, and he likes the heavy tires because they have a lot of traction.

I had planned to buy the Maxxis Forekasters to swap on his bike because that and tubeless will knock of 2lbs of rotating weight, but at the same time, it is hard to do so because he is so fast and stable on the Flow Snap tires (DHR2 copies?) that I worry the Forekasters will wash out in corners where the Flow Snaps do not. I'm sure this all makes a huge difference in competitive cross country racing, but for semi-downhill lines with moderate climbing like in that video, it's just a nice to have, not a requirement.

If he ever races NICA I can buy him the lighter stuff, and after having ridden the heavy wheels and tires for a long time, he will have built the strength and endurance to go much faster with the lighter wheels and tires. He is only 9 and I at this point can barely keep up with him, so for him to go even faster and be out of sight for longer than he is already, I'm really not sure I'm ready for that yet.

Anyway, good luck with your decision. I know it's a hard one.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

This is a good point on the tires. For some types of riding they can be a great place to save wieght if they come stock with a gravity/park tire like Minions/FlowSnap...but there can be a big trade off depending on the terrain. Here in PNW there is no way we could run a XC tire all season (running 2.3/2.4 24" Minions). This is where the beauty of light weight wheels comes in when finding that big bike. There is very little trade off for a little kid running lightwheels. You get huge rotational weight savings and enables you to still use an aggressive tire (we run DHF/DHR2 on Crests) with less of an impact. Plus kids at this size run a really, really low risk of taco'ing a light 32h wheel even on bigger sends. Aggressive/Heavy tires can be good...aggressive heavy tires with tanky wheels...not good.

This is a spring/winter trail for us (my oldest is 8yr - still on 24")...without the light wheels, we can't make that climb (his stock wheels were i30 tanks). Without the minions/decent sidewall, those rocks are eating his tires up. But not every trail is like this so its always situational. Regardless, if you can, def find some light wheels, huge impact.


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## rabitoblanco (Feb 21, 2017)

What an awesome looking trail, where is that?!

And yeah, thanks for the underscore on tires. So far, we've just been on Rocket Ron's, with a harder tube inside too resist punctures.

Also, while I'm trying to figure all this out, took the baby out on a M Santa Cruz Chameleon 2, and it's clear how much easier life is with wheels>24"


__
http://instagr.am/p/B_Qzr0xHrjK/

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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

Climbing, that's the benefit of the long chainstay and wheelbase. 

I was looking for a 24 right up until my son rode my 27.5 medium hardtail. For the first 10 seconds he was "this is weird I can't do it", and then it was "I'm OK" and within 5 minutes it was "I can jump this bike farther than my bike...", and he could.


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

So actually I did not realize how old the Chameleon 2 is. He must be leaning pretty far forward on that bike? The modern XS adult bikes all have a shorter reach and higher stack, and my son fits the modern geometry pretty well, but he cannot ride my 1994 Klein Fervor. It's too long on the top tube, he looked like superman when he rode the Klein.


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## rabitoblanco (Feb 21, 2017)

That's the Chameleon 2 M, and Nukeproof Scout 275 L, for fun. 
Also, jumping the Santa Cruz, because you run what you have, while your dad figures out the next move, haha!









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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

I have similar photos. First is him on his Commencal Meta HT Jr, basically an XS 27.5 adult size. Second is him on my medium Commencal Meta AM v4.2 27.5 with the dropper post all the way down.

Please ignore the no helmet, I said "hey grab my bike and take it in the garage", which in 9YO translation means, "ride that bike around the yard 750ft and then leave it exactly where you picked it up from..."


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

nobody special said:


> 9YO translation means, "ride that bike around the yard 750ft and then leave it exactly where you picked it up from..."


LOL....my.life.every.day

Both those are such nice looking bikes. Commencal kills it in that department. That Red Meta is fly with the gumwalls. Lucky that you ride a medium. When he grows up, you'll just give him that and need to get a new bike .


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## eatdrinkride (Jun 15, 2005)

Hey good stuff in this thread. My son is 4 foot 6 and for Christmas I picked him up a used trailcraft 24 inch bike. He's having good fun on it but it is difficult for him on our Rocky desert trails. He's in really good shape but the problem is it's hard to keep traction and make climbs on the small wheels when it's rocky. Figure by next time this year I'll take a hard look at that Commencal HT Jr. 

hopefully stepping up to 165 mm cranks won't be too big of a deal for someone that short. Personally I think a bike that size should be at 155mm, max. Heck I'm 5 foot 8 and I run 165 and I'm sure I could be just as happy on 160s. 
But as we all know kids are completely oblivious to stuff like that.. at least until Dad starts making a big deal about it haha.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

That nukeproof scout is sweet, maybe a small Ragley bluepig would work. I would also keep on eye on NS bikes


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## nwa bike dad (Apr 21, 2018)

26" Trailcraft Maxwell Special build (FS) - $2744 w Dropper
26" YT Jeffsy Primus (FS) $1999
or XS 27.5 (recommendations?)

Son is 9, 4'6". We ride everything.

YT seems worth waiting for.


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## nwa bike dad (Apr 21, 2018)

SC Bronson XS R build on sale for $2600.
Pivot's are nice but so expensive. 
Found a Switchblade Carbon XO1 Race for $3649.


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

The crank length is one thing I do keep debating. I posted this to a different thread about crank length:
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When my son was about that height we moved him to the 152mm crank holes on his Trek. I believe the shorter cranks on the Trek were 137mm.

His new bike has a 165mm crank and he is 55" tall. Sometimes I think they are too long, sometimes I think they are fine. Sometimes I think of swapping him to a 155mm crank, but he likes his existing cranks and he doesn't want to change them. I think what I have learned is that if the kid is having fun, they are much more adaptable than adults.

I also only notice the crank length when he is seated and pedaling. When he is standing, the extra crank length isn't that noticeable. 
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One other thing on the Commencal which I forgot, the Fizik seat that it came with was terrible. We did one 3 mile ride when it first arrived and we removed the Fizik and swapped the WTB Volt from his old Trek onto the Commencal. So with the Commencal you may want to plan on a different seat as well, I forgot about that, sorry.

Next in line for a new bike is my 7YO daughter, so last night I took the MT220 off the wall, moved the pedals into the 132mm position, and let her ride it. She liked it but she struggles a little to get her foot on the ground at 46" tall. Granted she has told me wife all morning how now she was "going to ride her brothers old bike instead of her baby bike", so who knows... She has exceeded the capability of her Cannondale Quick 20, a bike which I mostly dislike, but she is not quite big enough for the MT220 or other 24" bike as is.

Anyway, my son was feeling a little jealous so he wanted to ride his old bike also. He literally rode one lap of bout 40 feet and gave it back to his sister and said "it's so tiny" and I think he never wants to touch it again.


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## rabitoblanco (Feb 21, 2017)

@nobody: That "almost out of 20" size is funny-- Ro could stand over the top tube, but not the seat when we first got the FSR24 (even with fully slammed). But he mostly stands anyway, so he didn't mind; one ride on a trail, and he never wanted to ride his 20 on a trail again. It did some time as a play bike, but mostly has just sat as a loaner. 
2x about the looks on that red Commencal. that top tube into seat stay line, the gum walls and the paint itself, it's just ace! 

@eatdrinkride: Where this thread started, my 4'8" kid's 24" with 129mm Spawn cranks died; he's been riding this Santa Cruz with 175mm and I can see a distinct loss in efficiency as he bobs all the way down on each stroke--I feel it's even more obvious when standing. He isn't the complaining type, and has been loving the current big bike (video above). But all in all, it looked like he was a lot more centered (vertically) while pedaling on the smaller cranks. 
To add: I've recently changed my own (5'10") cranks from 165s to 155s, and I love the difference. Highly suggest trying shorter cranks for any of you who haven't!

@terrasmak: that Ragley is a lovely spec! Between the Lyric and the DT wheels...damn! Reminded me a bit of the Surly Karate Monkey in looks, which is also a nice geometry--but not as nicely kitted, yet about as expensive as the Ragley. 

@nwa: I haven't compared the geometry between the Trailcraft (are they still made in Colorado?) and the YT. But the latter weighs in at 31lbs if I recall. Depends on the ratio of climbing to descending, I reckon! One can always budget another $500 for wheels, but then you're almost at the same price... and Trailcraft's tend to be more upright...and there's XS Carbon used bikes to be had!


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## rabitoblanco (Feb 21, 2017)

> in 9YO translation means, "ride that bike around the yard 750ft and then leave it exactly where you picked it up from..."





> LOL....my.life.every.day


Made me laugh--so it's not just mine. Do you also get the translation of 
"Hey, can you bring this to the back of the car" to "go for a ride while I'm trying to get that bike on the rack!"?


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

rabitoblanco said:


> Made me laugh--so it's not just mine. Do you also get the translation of
> "Hey, can you bring this to the back of the car" to "go for a ride while I'm trying to get that bike on the rack!"?


ahaha...yes. Because "We are going for a ride, bring the bike here" means "ride the bike all over without shoes while losing your helmet instantly"


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

rabitoblanco said:


> Made me laugh--so it's not just mine. Do you also get the translation of
> "Hey, can you bring this to the back of the car" to "go for a ride while I'm trying to get that bike on the rack!"?


Yep. It's "bring your bike over so I can put it in the truck" then he puts on his helmet and disappears after I turn around.

When he does arrive he leaves it right between me and the truck so I have to move it in order to load whatever I just picked up.


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

One thing I forgot to mention is that yesterday I did order a pair for Maxxis Forekaster 27.5x2.35 DC/EXO/TR tires which are *supposed* to be 690 grams each. The Vee Flow Snaps are about 910 grams each and the tube are about 255 grams each. In the last 3 weeks I've had two flats on different bikes and my wife told me to order some extra tires. Actually I orderd the Forekasters and also a pair for Vittoria Barzo 27.5x2.25 at 600 grams each ($14.50 each on Jenson USA for the Barzos). I'll probably put the Barzos on my greenway bike but I may let my son ride them around a little on his Commencal first to get an idea of how much traction he actually needs.

With tubeless the Forekasters should knock off about 2lbs of rotating weight but I'm worried they won't have as much traction as the Vee Flow Snaps.

I also have an e13 boost front wheel which I'm pretty sure is a couple hundred grams lighter than his OEM WTB/Formula front wheel. Once all this stuff arrives I'll weight it and post the results.


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## dllawson819 (Feb 22, 2019)

I recently picked up a small Chameleon for my son - totally agree about the looonng cranks, lol. 

Keep an eye out for a small / extra small Ibis Mojo. These bikes are very versatile and are great with 27.5" wheels. My primary bike is a Mojo SL-R with 27.5" wheels. I recently installed a 27.5" Fox 34 with 150mm of travel and the bike is amazing. I was concerned the 27.5" fork at 150mm would raise the front end too much, but there were no negatives.

When my son gets a little taller, I will switch the Mojo back to 26" wheels and pass it down. As he progresses, we can move to a 27.5" front wheel and finally to a full 27.5".


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

I forgot to reply but the Forekasters and tubeless did cut a full measured 2 lbs of rotating weight off the Commencal. I don't have any plans on swapping out the wheel at this point. There seems to be no degradation in traction from the Flow Snaps to the Forekasters, but the Forekasters are noticeably narrower.

Now he wants his own strava account, and frankly based on the segment times of me riding the brakes behind him everywhere, he will be in the top 10 on several trails, and close to top 10 on many. I guess this is how it all starts?


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## rabitoblanco (Feb 21, 2017)

nobody special said:


> I
> 
> Now he wants his own strava account, and frankly based on the segment times of me riding the brakes behind him everywhere, he will be in the top 10 on several trails, and close to top 10 on many. I guess this is how it all starts?


Haha that's awesome! Mine asked for the same the other day--and I need to figure out if phones can do GPS without a network, bc/ he's not about to have a "real" phone just yet...

Meanwhile, I ended up ordering the Trailcraft Big Mesa, with the Stans 27.5 wheels. Should be here in a few days-- will report back!

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## Goldigger (Nov 6, 2009)

I'm also looking for the next bike for my nearly 9 year old son, hes to big for a 24 so we've been looking at 26 inch bikes. Also looked at the Canyon Grand Canyon WMN as the geo is good for small people, but the top tube in a 2XS looks horrid!

Whyte 403 and 405
Orange zest 26, i asked orange how much it weighs and they quoted 13.6kg. compared to the whyte 405 i cant see where the extra 1.3kg is?
I like the nukeproof 26 race, but i can see the 30mm rims and 2.5 tyres being porky for him. Also the Nukeproof Neutron rear hubs are apparently repainted Novatex D462SB's and the freehub made of cheese (although that might by fine for a child

Why did i sell all my 26 wheels and tyres!!


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## zoro (Mar 14, 2007)

I'm gonna bump this up. Anybody ever thought about building an XS Chromag Monk? The new models have a really good geo, especially with the steeper seat tube angles (76 with 31.6 seatpost). It would make a great hardtail for a first 26er for a kid. Super low slung and really short seat tube. It's a DJ bike so it's extra sturdy. Can be run with gears or SS. You could angle set it to 68 also. The XS model can be run with 24 or 26 wheels. It's kind of a unicorn. https://chromagbikes.com/collections/26/products/frames-monk-20 Great company also.

A Small Chromag stylus would also be great. 27.5 and really short seat tube. Plus the geo is very progressive. Resale value would be awesome also.









Previous posters got it right. The first 26/27.5 for an older kids is a gray area in the market. It's a hit or miss really. Just built a 26 for my kid, which happens to be my old pump track hardtail. An old Snipes hardtail. Bolted on my old XT11 speed, with a 11-42 cassette and m8000 brakes. The bike is super short 'cause that was the go-to geo back in the days. Those types of hardtails are great to build as most people here have 26 parts sitting around. Frame only can make a cheap build with much upside. Also, he's sending on it. Much goodness.









I'd avoid FS unless it's lift accessed terrain or major chunk. Much simpler and better to learn on a hardtail. Forces to learn better technique also.


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## rabitoblanco (Feb 21, 2017)

That's a lot of height off that little ramp! Awesome!

The Chromag bikes are of course lovely. But that dj has a 70 degree head angle-- seems typical for dirt jumpers, but not ideal if trying to descend gnar. The Stylus sends built for the later. Pricey, but those will hold value, as you mentioned. I didn't check weights, I wonder.

Also, I was supposed to report back--the Trailcraft Big Mesa has been entirely fantastic. Literally every part of his riding is particularly his confidence, which surprised me. On day 1 we bested his usual ride length by 5 miles. He climbs better, jumps better, descends better: even though I was expecting it, the difference is remarkable.

He's 4'6.5", with the 27.5 wheels, for size comparisons:









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## eatdrinkride (Jun 15, 2005)

^^^
Not seeing Big Mesa on TC website. Where did you get if from?


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## rabitoblanco (Feb 21, 2017)

eatdrinkride said:


> ^^^
> Not seeing Big Mesa on TC website. Where did you get if from?


It seems it was discontinued--makes sense, I bought it from the Sale Bikes section (I wonder if that was the last one in that color!) 
They talk about it here: 
https://www.trailcraftcycles.com/big-mesa/
It's designed as a 26 plus bike, but we got the 27.5 Stans wheels so it lost some weight compared to the 26+ and a more manageable tire size. I think this is a larger frame than the current Timberjack hardtail they are selling, but 419 CS and 68HA are the same, iirc. 
Min. recommended height for the TJ is 4'6, and was 4'10 for the Big Mesa.

-ridwan


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## rabitoblanco (Feb 21, 2017)

Hey friends, 
Baby's bike got stolen this past week from Smith Mountain Lake area in Hiddleston, VA. 
Please let me know if it comes up for sale! I'm guessing it's getting sold for $17 and a cheeseburger by a meth-head somewhere but just in case... 

In related news, it was terrific, and I couldn't suggest it enough if anyone's ever thinking about one of these!

Trailcraft Big Mesa in dark purple
CST Rockhawk tires
Green Raceface Chester pedals
XT derailleur
Zee shifter
Maxxis mudguard
Sticker, right side: MTB Frequent Flyer
Sticker, left side: Demon United









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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

rabitoblanco said:


> Hey friends,
> Baby's bike got stolen this past week from Smith Mountain Lake area in Hiddleston, VA.
> Please let me know if it comes up for sale! I'm guessing it's getting sold for $17 and a cheeseburger by a meth-head somewhere but just in case...


Sorry to hear. If you haven't already, take a look on apps like Offer Up. That seems to be a favorite of thieves around here when they are looking to move stolen goods quickly.


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