# Challenge and fitness verses Injury - how to balance the tradeoff?



## cedwardsfl (9 mo ago)

I'm 63 and 6 months ago started riding consistently, upgrading from a 2000 26 Epic to a 2021 29 Stumpjumper - WOW what a difference!! I haven't riden seriously for over 10 years. Moved to AZ where the riding is lots of rocks, drop offs and tight trails. I like the challenge of the technical blue and black single track trails but as a result I have a decent fall every 1 out of 3+ rides. Never needed medical attention, just some big scrapes and bruises. Saturday I was an hour in, washed out my front tire on a steep rocky decent. Doing post fall inventory I found my index finger was bent 90 degrees to the side - dislocated. Grabbed it and popped it back into place, damn that hurt. Then finished the 1 hr ride home.

Is my crash ratio higher than most or does it just goes with the territory? I am looking up videos on how to avoid crashing and I am planning to take it down a notch on my next ride. But a large part of what I enjoy in MTB is the challenge. I know if I only stay on safe green trails my interest in the sport and intensity of my rides will dwindle.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Are you wearing any protective gear? That wouldn't prevent a finger dislocation but it would guard against bumps and scrapes at least.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

That's way too many crashes for my comfort, once a year is more than enough for me. I would dial it back some to stay in the game for the long run.


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## Adongadoobah (Oct 9, 2021)

I'm middle aged , I've only been riding a little while but for me I sessioned two main trails getting to know them so much meant I could ride them at a higher skill then my actual skill eventually from that added more in but always returned back to them for bike setup changes, I've found tiny changes in the bike setup also made massive differences to how safe it was (especially rear shock.) I've only done a black run twice and felt it out of my skill level so had no desire to again.

Just my silly opinion, I don't even see the point of a black run? It's illogical. Climb up for 15m near throw up exhaustion , Then descend and instead of a 3km a 2km trail while clutching brakes half the time (instead of letting the bike fly), I get the challenge aspect but I feel rippped off for my climb. Also by my third climb 90% of my mistakes are exhaustion related despite being very very fit. At that point I know it's dangerous, When your legs ignore nervous signals like they have their own mind.

3 crashes in a year for me , Torn up one time with hip bruises huge hip and thigh bruise another time and two bruised ribs last time (becuase like an idiot I didn't check my fork pre ride and it had lost psi and dove under me).


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

Really only you can decide, but your crash frequency seems pretty high. At some point you're gonna land just wrong and take yourself out for a while. As an AZ rider myself I feel your pain, I like the challenge of the environment and surface but sometimes you just don't want to get beat up that badly. For me it's about getting out and away these days instead of riding like my balls are on fire like I did for so many years. I enjoy myself more, get hurt less, and stay in good shape.


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## ShakyDog (Oct 24, 2019)

Are you using a dropper seat post? I have started to understand the purpose of the dropper post and have embraced it as one of the best means to keep from rolling around on the ground when riding.

Steve


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## JPSeuropa (Jul 12, 2010)

Too many "decent" crashes...where I am defining "decent" (is there such a thing?) as a crash that induces or could induce serious injury. I have lots of falls, sometimes multiple on a ride, but I try to keep the speed thresholds down in the dicey bits and go fast on the safer bits. I still manage a "decent" injury about once a year that puts me off cycling for more than a week, but less than a month. 
Its all about the "cost of failure" to me about what I will ride, walk, adjust speed...etc. I really hate getting hurt.
69 YO


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## Mountainfrog (Mar 7, 2006)

Too high! I think I have 14 crashes total in 28 years in Arizona. Red, black, blue, and green trails in Arizona can all be unforgiving. 1 in 14 I drove myself to the E.R., and that was the one silly a** crash I had. Work on your skills set and back off a bit. Your body will thank you later. I'm 68 BTW.


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## ownyourtime (Dec 11, 2021)

Have you gotten your vision checked lately? Perhaps prescription glasses may help. They made a big difference for me when I was experiencing an unusually high number of crashes.


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## baker (Jan 6, 2004)

I consider myself someone who crashes quite a bit. I'm just not the cautious type. But, I go through periods where I dial it back. I'd rather be riding than recovering from injury.

For me...going OTB and landing on my feet? NBD. Slight scrapes on bruises, NBD. Crashing 1 in 3 rides and my next ride being impacted? That's more than I'd want to be doing.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Adongadoobah said:


> I've only been riding a little while
> 
> Just my silly opinion, I don't even see the point of a black run? It's illogical.


It'll make sense when the blue runs become easy and sedate for you. Keep at it.


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## cedwardsfl (9 mo ago)

Nat said:


> Are you wearing any protective gear? That wouldn't prevent a finger dislocation but it would guard against bumps and scrapes at least.


Sometimes - my problem is heat. Shin guards and hip padding are hot and AZ heat exhaustion is a concern.


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## cedwardsfl (9 mo ago)

JPSeuropa said:


> Too many "decent" crashes...where I am defining "decent" (is there such a thing?) as a crash that induces or could induce serious injury. I have lots of falls, sometimes multiple on a ride, but I try to keep the speed thresholds down in the dicey bits and go fast on the safer bits. I still manage a "decent" injury about once a year that puts me off cycling for more than a week, but less than a month.
> Its all about the "cost of failure" to me about what I will ride, walk, adjust speed...etc. I really hate getting hurt.
> 69 YO


My crashes are always 1 of 2 situations - high speed decent where I wash out the front tire or steep uphill trying to get thru/over a rock feature, did a complete over backwards last month on a move I knew I shouldn't have tried. Going to be backing off a bit more and walking those moves I think are iffy and I'm not skilled enough to handle. Good news is I ride many features/obstacles that I had to walk a few months ago, so my skill level is definitely improving.


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## cedwardsfl (9 mo ago)

ShakyDog said:


> Are you using a dropper seat post? I have started to understand the purpose of the dropper post and have embraced it as one of the best means to keep from rolling around on the ground when riding.
> 
> Steve


Good point. I have a dropper post but I think I don't use it enough and on descents I now plan to ALWAYS drop the post and concentrate more on shifting my weight back and modulating my braking.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

cedwardsfl said:


> Sometimes - my problem is heat. Shin guards and hip padding are hot and AZ heat exhaustion is a concern.


I understand. Even when it gets to 80F here pads can get uncomfortable, and I remember how hot AZ felt. I also recall getting pretty scraped up on the jagged rock just about any time I went down, so I'd at least want knee pads. The ventilated Pearl Izumi Elevate pads aren't horrible in heat. Still, nothing is as comfortable as bare sking (until you fall).


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## DennisT (Dec 29, 2019)

I'm 65, been MTBing for about 4 years now. I crash perhaps twice a season (although I crashed twice in a day in the Whistler bike park last summer ). I enjoy a challenge too, but my mantra is "incremental progress." Certainly I progress more slowly than some 20 year old who hucks himself off every cliff he sees, but OTOH, I don't need painkillers to get to sleep at night.


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## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

Yup, that is way too many crashes. Either armor up or dial it down. Recovery from breaking something takes a long time, I know 3 guys that are 'out' for recovery right now, and I had to take 2 months off last fall for a bone to heal, then try to get back to fitness after that. Zero injuries is my goal, and I'm not taking as many risks while racing, which probably hurts my finishes a little bit, but months of recovery is no fun at all.


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## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

One out of three is a really high ratio. That was probably my ratio back in the 90's, but those bikes were just outright faulty relative to today's designs. Are you pushing yourself out of your comfort zone a lot?


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## SabbathU71 (Dec 24, 2004)

I'm 50.
Wearing pads, for me, is important for confidence. Not invincible negligent confidence, but enough confidence where I'm not being sketchy or scared of a section. Because being scared causes apprehension, and apprehension leads to loss of momentum, and loss of momentum leads to crashes. So, with the confidence pads gives me, I feel like I can glide or sail through tough sections. 

Also, having pads will teach you how to fall or roll. When the terrain gets sketchy, I imaging myself falling or sliding on my knees and elbows, etc. That way, I don't stick my hand out to prevent me from hitting the ground and breaking a wrist or collar bone.


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## AndrewHardtail (Nov 2, 2021)

I also wonder if the geometry of the new bike is different enough from old that your body positioning/movement is off? Might just need to get time in the saddle on easy stuff and get more familiar with the handling. Also take the opportunity to fiddle with the fork and suspension setup to see how it affects the handling so you’re sure you’ve got it dialed in.


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## Jolyzara (Jan 11, 2022)

What are you defining as a crash and how technical are the trails? It seems like a lot but if you are talking about sliding out and hitting the ground with a few scratches on a sketchy trail that's pretty common IMO. If you are talking about major crashes with blood, bruises, torn muscles and tendons that's different. 

The majority of my crashes have come when I go full send on a downhill. Always when I am on the edge & pushing hard. It is a fine line between having fun, trying to do something better/faster and the emergency room. Luckily nothing too major but when you need to sit out 4-6 weeks it is a good reminder the risk for shaving a few seconds off your personal best is not worth the 6+ week off the bike.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

SabbathU71 said:


> Wearing pads, for me, is important for confidence.


If I don't have knee pads on I feel super-exposed and in jeopardy.


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## eshew (Jan 30, 2004)

New bikes, 29" tires etc do take some time to get used to. Making sure you have the most aggressive tires helps as well. If I'm not running "MY" tires it's a shart show. DHF/DHR are my go to's now, might go to an Assegai up front. But that's PNW, guessing there might be better options down there. 

But be careful.... you have a 130mm stumpjumper, definitely NOT an aggressive bike, sounds like you need to get a beefier rig for the gnarly stuff.


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## cedwardsfl (9 mo ago)

goldsbar said:


> One out of three is a really high ratio. That was probably my ratio back in the 90's, but those bikes were just outright faulty relative to today's designs. Are you pushing yourself out of your comfort zone a lot?


I have to admit yes. When I see terrain coming up that I'm not sure about I do have a mantra - "either attack it or walk", I have found when I don't really commit, it can go worse. I also use SPD pedals so I'm generally clipped in. MOST of the time when I commit it goes well. I think I need to be more cautious on those decisions. I'm also starting to unclip when I think it is near my skill limit..


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

Something that sticks out at me about your previous post...you said you sometimes crash attempting to clear obstacles going uphill. To me that is the worst possible place to be clipped in. You may want to consider some good flats and shoes. When you're going slowly and moving body weight around, a little low-speed low-momentum wheel trap or slip off a loose rock can toss you to the ground before you can effectively clip out. Those can actually be pretty bad ones if your hip or shoulder lands on a rock. I've done that before and having trained myself how to fall, I tuck my head and elbows and never stick my hand out. That is where flats make a lot of sense. They aren't a panacea and you can still drop a foot in a way that twists your ankle, but it generally better than being clipped in. Flats are also no-compromise on the downs.

Switching to flats after years of riding spd, for me was the biggest and fastest gain the confidence I've ever had in tech sections.


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## cedwardsfl (9 mo ago)

Jolyzara said:


> What are you defining as a crash and how technical are the trails? It seems like a lot but if you are talking about sliding out and hitting the ground with a few scratches on a sketchy trail that's pretty common IMO. If you are talking about major crashes with blood, bruises, torn muscles and tendons that's different.
> 
> The majority of my crashes have come when I go full send on a downhill. Always when I am on the edge & pushing hard. It is a fine line between having fun, trying to do something better/faster and the emergency room. Luckily nothing too major but when you need to sit out 4-6 weeks it is a good reminder the risk for shaving a few seconds off your personal best is not worth the 6+ week off the bike.


I define "crash" as hitting hard enough I have to take a dirt knap for a second, check myself and my bike for damage and generally there is >1 gash or major bruise. I have never fallen on smooth trails, its all single track, usually high blue or black and there is ALWAYS rock. Shins and hips taking the brunt. Bright side I fall REALLY well, I trained in BJJ for years so I naturally just go with it and roll, so no torn muscles, sprains, hand or neck issues until I just dislocated my finger, knock on wood.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

cedwardsfl said:


> I have to admit yes. When I see terrain coming up that I'm not sure about I do have a mantra - "either attack it or walk", I have found when I don't really commit, it can go worse. I also use SPD pedals so I'm generally clipped in. MOST of the time when I commit it goes well. I think I need to be more cautious on those decisions. I'm also starting to unclip when I think it is near my skill limit..




I'll probably get thrashed for suggesting this but maybe try flat pedals for awhile? Not necessarily saying that any of your crashes are due to being clipped in but ime you can dab nano seconds sooner on flats and I do think it's a bit safer 

I've done both and have used clipless for many years. Power loss from clipless to flats is very minimal so unless you're racing at a competitive level I wouldn't consider that.


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## cedwardsfl (9 mo ago)

BadgerOne said:


> Something that sticks out at me about your previous post...you said you sometimes crash attempting to clear obstacles going uphill. To me that is the worst possible place to be clipped in. You may want to consider some good flats and shoes. When you're going slowly and moving body weight around, a little low-speed low-momentum wheel trap or slip off a loose rock can toss you to the ground before you can effectively clip out. Those can actually be pretty bad ones if your hip or shoulder lands on a rock. I've done that before and having trained myself how to fall, I tuck my head and elbows and never stick my hand out. That is where flats make a lot of sense. They aren't a panacea and you can still drop a foot in a way that twists your ankle, but it generally better than being clipped in. Flats are also no-compromise on the downs.
> 
> Switching to flats after years of riding spd, for me was the biggest and fastest gain the confidence I've ever had in tech sections.


You perfectly described my worst fall - stalled on a steep rock feature, over backward, clipped in landing on the rock below. I am seriously considering flats, but for uphill I really like being clipped in - and I admit I use cheat SPD bunny hops a lot - which I know is a crutch.


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## rowyourown (11 mo ago)

Having started mountain biking again after a couple decades away, flats have been key to rebuilding my confidence and skill set. This, even though I have clips on my gravel bike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

cedwardsfl said:


> You perfectly described my worst fall - stalled on a steep rock feature, over backward, clipped in landing on the rock below. I am seriously considering flats, but for uphill I really like being clipped in - and I admit I use cheat SPD bunny hops a lot - which I know is a crutch.




Yes I know the feeling, uphill stalls clipped in can be bad and potentially you could break a hip or something that could take you out for a substantial amount of time.

Definitely recommend giving flats a go with good shoes like five ten. Once you're used to them I bet you'll discover that climbs are no harder and there is an added safety margin, a significant consideration imo.


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## Santoman (10 mo ago)

cedwardsfl said:


> I'm 63 and 6 months ago started riding consistently, upgrading from a 2000 26 Epic to a 2021 29 Stumpjumper - WOW what a difference!! I haven't riden seriously for over 10 years. Moved to AZ where the riding is lots of rocks, drop offs and tight trails. I like the challenge of the technical blue and black single track trails but as a result I have a decent fall every 1 out of 3+ rides. Never needed medical attention, just some big scrapes and bruises. Saturday I was an hour in, washed out my front tire on a steep rocky decent. Doing post fall inventory I found my index finger was bent 90 degrees to the side - dislocated. Grabbed it and popped it back into place, damn that hurt. Then finished the 1 hr ride home.
> 
> Is my crash ratio higher than most or does it just goes with the territory? I am looking up videos on how to avoid crashing and I am planning to take it down a notch on my next ride. But a large part of what I enjoy in MTB is the challenge. I know if I only stay on safe green trails my interest in the sport and intensity of my rides will dwindle.


I am 46 and have been riding on and off for 30 years. I restarted about 10 years ago when I met my wife, who wanted to try MTBing. As she got better we started riding harder trails and I started pushing it more. As a result I had a couple of pretty bad crashes (one resulted in a concussion and another one in elbow surgery). I decided to try some coaching and, besides relearning some moves that I was doing suboptimally, it did wonders for my confidence. I would definitely recommend it. I particularly liked having an experienced observer giving me advice on which features I was ready to try (and which I was not)...BTW, summon your inner Sam Hill and go for flats!


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

That's a lot of crashing! 

Did you ride these types of trails in the past without crashing so much, or are you just jumping off the deep end, upon your return to riding? 

Tech trails are my favorite, but sometimes the consequences outweigh the accomplishment, and I know I'm not as on-point as I used to be. No shame in walking...


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## cedwardsfl (9 mo ago)

d365 said:


> That's a lot of crashing!
> 
> Did you ride these types of trails in the past without crashing so much, or are you just jumping off the deep end, upon your return to riding?
> 
> Tech trails are my favorite, but sometimes the consequences outweigh the accomplishment, and I know I'm not as on-point as I used to be. No shame in walking...


I rode a lot in CA over 10 years ago and I thought I was pretty good. But CA dirt trails with occasional roots is SOO much easier than AZ rocky single tracks. I am definitely trying things that require new skills. I am riding significant sections of trail that I used to walk and consider unrideable.


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## Riled (May 1, 2012)

I’m in a very similar situation to you, at least age and upgraded bike from 2000 to 2020. The new bike designs let you go a lot faster, so crashes may be rarer, but can be worse.

Definitely invest in some protection. I’ve had mine save me from missing a whole riding season. Walked away with a bruise from what should have been a busted knee or elbow. New protective materials can be comfortable and cool enough to use every ride. I’ve ridden through a summer in the 90 degree range and not been overly bothered by padding.

I ride 3-4 times a week and use padding on every single ride. I use hip, elbow, knee, and hand protection. I also recently put on “counterpunch” pinkie protectors after I mangled a pinkie on a tree. Good protection is an investment in valuable riding time. It’s rare enough at our age to realize it is a limited resource.


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## chauzie (Mar 8, 2010)

I've seen plenty of middle aged guys, older guys, wearing pads thinking they'll gain confidence, only to see lots of them trying to do skills that no pads can give, and landing them in the bed and/or hospital. Plenty


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## Pickers (9 mo ago)

rowyourown said:


> Having started mountain biking again after a couple decades away, flats have been key to rebuilding my confidence and skill set. This, even though I have clips on my gravel bike.


Same here! XT SPD on the gravel bike, but on the MTB (which I'm coming back to after a hiatus) I'm going flats n 5-10's.


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## Adongadoobah (Oct 9, 2021)

Nat said:


> It'll make sense when the blue runs become easy and sedate for you. Keep at it.


No it wont , It's still illogical braking excessively down hill then climbing back up. The blue runs are already sedate, I'm sending 7m jumps. It's possible I have an individual opinion and am not hive-mind.


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

Adongadoobah said:


> No it wont , It's still illogical braking excessively down hill then climbing back up. The blue runs are already sedate, I'm sending 7m jumps. It's possible I have an individual opinion and am not hive-mind.


I wonder if there is a country/regional difference in rating. I've noticed many Canadian blues would be blacks in the US. Similar situation in your area?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Adongadoobah said:


> No it wont , It's still illogical braking excessively down hill then climbing back up. The blue runs are already sedate, I'm sending 7m jumps. It's possible I have an individual opinion and am not hive-mind.


Well then, it looks like you’ve gone as far as you can with this sport. Congrats! 😂


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## Xylx (Mar 18, 2005)

That's way too many crashes. I'm 66 and my goal is zero crashes a year. We don't recover from broken bones as well. Been riding dirt since the 80s. Mostly broken clavicles, one rock impalement and a torn meniscus over the years. I went back to flat pedals fifteen years ago. You can learn to hop on flats. I also went up to 3" tires although might dial those back to 2.6 or 2.8" because the fatties really do slow you down. Sure-footed, but slow.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

cedwardsfl said:


> Good point. I have a dropper post but I think I don't use it enough and on descents I now plan to ALWAYS drop the post and concentrate more on shifting my weight back and modulating my braking.


Drop the post because it improves safety, only takes a button press. do it all the time everywhere!


you dont shift your weight back!!!

you should ride a neutral position on the bike with very little hand pressure, raise the bars if necessary. But you should slowly fall forward when taking your hands off the bars. Like what happens when trying to do a track stand And you slowly fall to the side.

then when riding you have the ability to let the bike react beneath you, doing the heavy lifting, as you keep that body position (helmet hardly moves on a descent).

cornering is next. Lean the bike, not the body! Exaggerate. Your just letting the cornering knobs of the tires go to work!

when a rider leans a bike in a corner its not to go faster, its to turn tighter at a slower speed! This is a bit of a what..... making a tighter corner at a slower speed means you dont have to go faster, which is required to balance the body and bike at that sharp lean angle. Which means your more in control as there is a greater amount of traction on reserve. Preventing a washout!


try running some cones/markers on a flat gravel area. Try leaning the bike with your body remaining upright as much as possible. Then try doing the same but leaning with the bike. You will be surprised at the results.

doing these things will also helpw braking as your never out of position over the bike and always ready to brace.


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## Gumby_rider (Apr 18, 2017)

If you crash where other mortals don’t then invest in skills.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

cedwardsfl said:


> I rode a lot in CA over 10 years ago and I thought I was pretty good. But CA dirt trails with occasional roots is SOO much easier than AZ rocky single tracks. I am definitely trying things that require new skills. I am riding significant sections of trail that I used to walk and consider unrideable.


I get it. Hopefully you figure it out before you hurt yourself. Crashes are part of the game, when you're pushing limits, but I'd be dialing it back, if I was crashing hard every 3 rides.


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## Dogbrain (Mar 4, 2008)

Have you considered a local coach? I don't mean some rando who can ride stuff, but someone who actually has experience teaching? Wheel washouts are often the result of body position. You might find that the problem goes away with a couple hours of quality instruction.


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## cedwardsfl (9 mo ago)

Dogbrain said:


> Have you considered a local coach? I don't mean some rando who can ride stuff, but someone who actually has experience teaching? Wheel washouts are often the result of body position. You might find that the problem goes away with a couple hours of quality instruction.


All of the responses have been great and really helpful. My plan now is:

Already ordered flats and 5 10 MTB shoes. Going to make the change before next ride.
Going to wear some protection in addition to helmet, including shin guards for sure with the new flats till I get used to them
Considering a good pro coach for some lessons, especially with change to flats
But still committed to staying with the more challenging trails - albeit a bit more cautiously. Its just more fun for me.

Appreciate all the sound advice.


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## SabbathU71 (Dec 24, 2004)

cedwardsfl said:


> All of the responses have been great and really helpful. My plan now is:
> 
> Already ordered flats and 5 10 MTB shoes. Going to make the change before next ride.


Just a word of caution from someone who tried switching to flats after 17 years of clipless.... don't forget when you are not clipped in!
You'll have the instinct to pull up and bunny hop like you probably always have, only to find the bike didn't follow you upwards and you're feet might be flailing LOL.
It might only happen at first, but it does happen. It's surprising when it does.


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## flyninjasquirrel (Apr 27, 2018)

I will echo the sentiments on changing to flats. I switched from clipless to flats to help with skill acquisition, but after they have saved my ass a couple of times I will never be going back.

If you are washing out the front wheel I think you should consider your body positioning. This is easy for people to overlook, but poor body positioning can lead to lots of crashes. Look up Lee McCormack and the hip hinge. Don't be afraid to get the chest down and get friendly with the front of the bike (hips back, chest down). Traction is generated not by the trail, but by what you do on the bike.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

That is a lot of crashing. I am probably 2-3 crashes per year and I log at least 200 rides a year.

If you are hitting that ground you have some fundamental issues with your riding style, or you are constantly riding above your ability level. Either way, search out a local skills coach and see if helps.


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## cedwardsfl (9 mo ago)

Its been a month since changing to flats and no falls. Also started watching a lot of Roxey's Rides on Youtube - great MTB drills and instruction. Working on low speed drills like figure 8s, trying to work up to a track stand. Huge believer now in flats verses clipless. Helped me improve my skills to stay centered on the bike and has improved my balance and focus on body position. Thanks for all the helpful replies.


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