# Modern trail corridor width?



## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

*Modern trail tread width?*

I was wondering if some trail builders are taking the trend toward wider handlebars in to consideration when building new trails. Some of the re-routes at my local trails seem to imply this as some trees are being removed that were very troublesome for a lot of people with wider handlebars.

Also, is there a standard tread width for bench-cut single track? We have a new trail in the area and it is extremely narrow in some places for my 100mm wide bottom bracket (pedal striking).

Thanks


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## BonkedAgain (Aug 23, 2005)

Unless a trail is specifically intended for technical riding, common trail standards in the US call for a minimum tread width of 18" and a minimum corridor width of 6'. You shouldn't be bumping against anything.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

It depends on the land manager and the users on the trail.

We work with anything from 18 inches to 6 feet trail tread. 
ADA compliance and equestrians, pedestrians, and bikes can call for wide treads near the trail head. Backcountry trails do not need to be as wide since the farther you get back, the less that number of users.

Brush corridor is normally 5 - 6 feet wide and 6 - 10 feet high. Obviously equestrian users requite more height.

As far as handlebar width, I think we can leave that to rider skill. I've seen riders dig bars into the ground, but we don't excavate a groove, they need to handle that on their skill set.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Trail and corridor width really have nothing to do with regulations and have to be set to the trail. In some places reducing trail width or line of sight will slow riders for difficult terrain or a hidden intersection. In others trimming back 3m either side of the trail will allow line of sight and improve safety even though speed increases.

For XC/middle-age crisis AM trail, our aim is to build a tread up to 1.5m wide, but one that may narrow to 60cm or less over time as the riding line develops. In some places multiple riding lines may keep a trail wide forever. In others the trail may end up 30cm wide. Either way, the corridor has to suit the trail. 

More time has to be spent trimming back invading vegetation than repairing a good trail, so it makes sense to start with a generous corridor, thinned even wider in some places to allow line of sight and allow riders to create "the" riding line. A trail that allows riders to have fun and make so much use of the trail that they don't feel another should be built is the real goal. You can't measure that in m or feet. 

Even if you are expected to conform to some legislated measurements, who's going to measure them every day? If you ask me, by the time someone comments on the trail width, it has changed, so what's the big deal?


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

dgw2jr said:


> I was wondering if some trail builders are taking the trend toward wider handlebars in to consideration when building new trails. Some of the re-routes at my local trails seem to imply this as some trees are being removed that were very troublesome for a lot of people with wider handlebars.
> 
> Also, is there a standard tread width for bench-cut single track? We have a new trail in the area and it is extremely narrow in some places for my 100mm wide bottom bracket (pedal striking).
> 
> Thanks


What are you hitting your pedals on? The uphill side of the bench or rocks?

I aim for 24"-30" tread when cutting bench. It's hard to say what is correct for the terrain this trail is situated on without seeing it. Generally any narrower than this isn't going to ride very well in terms of bench cut. In flatter areas, the tread width ends up being whatever gets ridden year to year. Also, it may not be feasible or desirable to pull the majority of rocks out of the tread. There just isn't any way to state an objective standard because one man's choppy, nasty trail is another's technical playground.

Brush corridor is about 6', but this is subjective because I'll go farther to cut back things like honeysuckle and blackberry because these can grow in pretty fast. The problem plants in your area may be different. I'll also leave in bigger and high quality saplings if they don't mess up the flow of the trail.

Walt


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## BigJay (Aug 15, 2004)

Love this thread!

People sometimes don't understand the relation between corridor and tread.

Keep the conversation going! Thanks for the feedback!


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## anthony.delorenzo (Aug 17, 2006)

I think the location plays a factor. Trails around here run narrow. I run 760mm bars and I hit trees at least a few times every ride. I don't mind the odd pinch where I have to snake through, provided it is in a pretty low-speed section of the trail. 

What I can't stand are pinches on high-speed downhills or on the inside of corners. Folks who hike or corner slowly don't realize how much you have to lean the bike into a corner. Trees (and blocked sightlines) on the inside of a corner are flow-killers so when I'm building I really make sure those are cleared wide.


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## Fattirewilly (Dec 10, 2001)

BonkedAgain said:


> Unless a trail is specifically intended for technical riding, common trail standards in the US call for a minimum tread width of 18" and a minimum corridor width of 6'. You shouldn't be bumping against anything.


This reads like a bad Wiki entry with no citation. I can see some guy going out with a tape measure, cutting out every hardwood sapling left as a choke or to add a bit of curvature just because he saw some 6' standard on the web

The link below, chart at bottom, has good info. The trail width is actually the "tread" width not the corridor width

Trail Difficulty Rating System | International Mountain Bicycling Association

Link below has good info and seems to support other statements here on selectively operating within a wider corridor, but certainly not nuking everything in a 6 foot wide swath like a Bushhog would do.

atfiles.org/files/pdf/basics.pdf

C. Clearing the trail corridor 
1. Clear vegetation three feet on 
either side of tread. Leave 
grasses and established trees 
(get approval on what size trees 
to cut). Completely remove all 
saplings, briars, vines and other 
fast-growing impediments by 
digging them out, roots and all. 
Do not cut woody plants off at 
ground level.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Walt Dizzy said:


> What are you hitting your pedals on? The uphill side of the bench or rocks?
> 
> I aim for 24"-30" tread when cutting bench. It's hard to say what is correct for the terrain this trail is situated on without seeing it. Generally any narrower than this isn't going to ride very well in terms of bench cut. In flatter areas, the tread width ends up being whatever gets ridden year to year. Also, it may not be feasible or desirable to pull the majority of rocks out of the tread. There just isn't any way to state an objective standard because one man's choppy, nasty trail is another's technical playground.
> 
> ...


Hitting pedals on the uphill side of the bench. Not much of a concern anymore since I'm now riding my SS 26er with taller, narrower BB.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

dgw2jr said:


> Hitting pedals on the uphill side of the bench. Not much of a concern anymore since I'm now riding my SS 26er with taller, narrower BB.


That is a sign of back slope not tapered correctly. That gets ignored too often, sadly.

Kindle Fire w Hashcode ICS ROM + 3.0 kernel & Tapatalk 2


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## Chris Clutton (Nov 8, 2006)

*Narrow trails can discourage unwanted users*



dgw2jr said:


> I was wondering if some trail builders are taking the trend toward wider handlebars in to consideration when building new trails.


In the area I build trail horses, motorcycles, quads, and four wheelers will try to use any trail that looks good. If choke points are only left at access points a go around will often be cut in. What has been working is to keep the whole trail tight so unwanted users do not enjoy them.

I wish the other users had lots of great trails around here so we could have some less technical bike trails that didn't turn into rutted double track!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^^^ +1, too tight for motorized, too low for horses.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

dgw2jr said:


> Hitting pedals on the uphill side of the bench. Not much of a concern anymore since I'm now riding my SS 26er with taller, narrower BB.


Sounds like the tread is too narrow, or as slocaus points out, the back slope of the cut may be incorrect. I've had to go back and deepen bench cuts. It's a lot of work to do right, people tend to short the job especially toward the end of the work day.

Walt


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Walt Dizzy said:


> Sounds like the tread is too narrow, or as slocaus points out, the back slope of the cut may be incorrect. I've had to go back and deepen bench cuts. It's a lot of work to do right, people tend to short the job especially toward the end of the work day.
> 
> Walt


Thanks Walt, Here is why it is hard work. It requires "moving dirt", a lot of dirt.


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## m11 (Apr 1, 2006)

In an attempt to keep ATV's off the trails we try and include tight entrances to single track from any of the double track.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Chris Clutton said:


> In the area I build trail horses, motorcycles, quads, and four wheelers will try to use any trail that looks good. If choke points are only left at access points a go around will often be cut in. What has been working is to keep the whole trail tight so unwanted users do not enjoy them.
> 
> I wish the other users had lots of great trails around here so we could have some less technical bike trails that didn't turn into rutted double track!


This approach was used here in the past - tight and very twisty trail to discourage other users. However, what happens is other users still use the trail before they find out they don't like it and then start throwing roost as they drift through the corners. Next, the tight twists encourage walkers to cut corners. In one place there must be 10+ repaired short-cuts and new ones keep coming. Finally, riders start to hate the trails because they are a pain to ride and outdated, so they start cutting corners, re-routing and making new trail.

IMO the trail should be made right and other political measures used to keep motorised and hooved transport off. Luckily here most user groups are understanding. Bikes get on with walkers and dogs and most motos are sympathetic to trail damage if not attacked on first contact. Horses and their rriders do whatever they want and as I keep saying, that does not include trailcare, not here at least.


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## Chris Clutton (Nov 8, 2006)

Ridnparadise said:


> This approach was used here in the past - tight and very twisty trail to discourage other users. However, what happens is other users still use the trail before they find out they don't like it and then start throwing roost as they drift through the corners. Next, the tight twists encourage walkers to cut corners. In one place there must be 10+ repaired short-cuts and new ones keep coming. Finally, riders start to hate the trails because they are a pain to ride and outdated, so they start cutting corners, re-routing and making new trail.


Ridnparadise thanks for sharing your experience with tight trails!

Every area has it's own unique landscape and what works in one area may not in others.

Motorcycles have checked out our newer trails. They do some damage but don't come back.

Our brush is so thick here that it is generally easer to stay on the trail. We have had to set up some log barriers to keep horse riders from cutting corners.

Most of our new trails still have good flow. There are a few that are very tedious and corners have been cut in areas with light brush.

I wish enforcement was a high priority with our land manager. We have given up trying to fix some trails because four wheelers tear up our work quickly. Since some money is coming in from logging now hopefully more enforcement may be coming.

Keep up the great work!


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## Vibrato (Apr 4, 2007)

While I agree that tight and twisty trails are getting harder to find and the trail treads are migrating some to accomodate the wider bars that may not have been the norm when some of these trails were put in 5 years ago, we had hundreds of riders on this new section of trail this weekend during the Midwest Mountain Bike Fest. 

While we heard a lot of complements on the 105 ft long wooden berms, I did not hear one complaint of the tread being too narrow. Perhaps this is less a question of tread depth and more a question of skill level?

Curious, of the 650+ hours that went into this trail by IMBA trained and "trail Solutions" owning builders THIS YEAR... how many of those hours were put in by you?

Don- seriously, you HAVE GOT to stop asking or saying things in an innocent manner that are hardcore insults to the people who build your trails. Riding when trails are closed repeatedly, insulting the builders, seriously man, how can you NOT see the position you are putting yourself in locally?

Besides, the difference between your fatbike BB and your SS BB is about an inch in width... that's half an inch per side... the trails aren't WIDE ENOUGH FOR YOU? You sound like a guy that goes to the gym once and then walks around with his chest and arms stuck out like he's too muscular to scratch his own arse. 

Chill out, enjoy rides.

.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

Vibrato said:


> While I agree that tight and twisty trails are getting harder to find and the trail treads are migrating some to accomodate the wider bars that may not have been the norm when some of these trails were put in 5 years ago, we had hundreds of riders on this new section of trail this weekend during the Midwest Mountain Bike Fest.
> 
> While we heard a lot of complements on the 105 ft long wooden berms, I did not hear one complaint of the tread being too narrow. Perhaps this is less a question of tread depth and more a question of skill level?
> 
> ...


Oh my goodness. I'm obviously out of this loop, but here's 2 pics of narrow trail. The corridor is not narrow though. Vision and clearance are appropriate to speed. In the first (left) looks like the bush is very young, but the trail is circa 10 years old. The other pic shows the exit from/entrance to a tighter section of trail where speeds are lowered by the trail, but the corridor offers adequate time to prepare. This section of trail was built in the last couple of years. In this place wide bars could cause issues going through the trees however. The lower speed helps avoid that and up to date the little trees are not being wounded or deliberately squished here as happens on faster sections of the trail.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Vibrato said:


> Curious, of the 650+ hours that went into this trail by IMBA trained and "trail Solutions" owning builders THIS YEAR... how many of those hours were put in by you?
> 
> Don- seriously, you HAVE GOT to stop asking or saying things in an innocent manner that are hardcore insults to the people who build your trails. Riding when trails are closed repeatedly, insulting the builders, seriously man, how can you NOT see the position you are putting yourself in locally?
> 
> ...





Ridnparadise said:


> Oh my goodness. I'm obviously out of this loop, but here's 2 pics of narrow trail.


@Ridnparadise - read the above, and the OP edits on is post that he did not understand tread vs corridor, since he seems not to be a trail builder.

Seems to be a back story that we all know about user criticizing trail builders, and not actually building, but going to the internet for support of their criticism. Maybe I read this wrong.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

I only put about 2 hours in to building that particular trail, and that was all just clearing corridor. I did not move any dirt. I am not a trail builder. Also, I am not seeking criticism for the trail builders. The slope is very steep in the particular spots I am talking about, and as slocaus pointed out earlier in the thread, getting that backslope cut in further would require moving a lot more dirt. The amount of dirt moved to get to the point that it is now is pretty impressive and perhaps my whining about my pedal striking may have implied that it was not. 

Vibrato and I have spoken privately and we are all good. Dude can design one helluva berm bridge!


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

dgw2jr said:


> I only put about 2 hours in to building that particular trail, and that was all just clearing corridor. I did not move any dirt. I am not a trail builder. Also, I am not seeking criticism for the trail builders. The slope is very steep in the particular spots I am talking about, and as slocaus pointed out earlier in the thread, getting that backslope cut in further would require moving a lot more dirt. The amount of dirt moved to get to the point that it is now is pretty impressive and perhaps my whining about my pedal striking may have implied that it was not.
> 
> Vibrato and I have spoken privately and we are all good. Dude can design one helluva berm bridge!


I'm pleased that is cleared up and the air cleared. Thanks for posting this.


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## Vibrato (Apr 4, 2007)

Yeah- DJW is good dood. He's an unusual blend of Hippy MTBer and Mountain Dew MTBer, so he's coming in from a different angle than most- but no worse than the gung ho, fall line trail builder I started out as!


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Vibrato said:


> Yeah- DJW is good dood. He's an unusual blend of Hippy MTBer and Red Bull MTBer, so he's coming in from a different angle than most- but no worse than the gung ho, fall line trail builder I started out as!


Fixed it for ya! I hate Mt. Dew! But I'd say that's probably a fair assessment lol


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## Vibrato (Apr 4, 2007)

Nah man- "Red Bull MTBers" ride 20 foot drops, 50 foot gaps and down the face of 80 plus degree cliff faces and then talk about how they shredded that gnarley. 

DJW, you don't ride that stuff... yet... 

"Mounatin Dew" MTBers have difficulty understanding that we have contracts and memorandums of understanding with land owners, expectations that have to be met for continued access, insurance liabilities to be covered through membership dues, rules, guidelines and ettiquetes that if you don't follow, we get a bit frustrated with. 

You may not LIKE the DEW, but you still have a little of the DEW attitude- just a little bit. But that's ok, brother, you're letting us bring you intop the fold slow and easy... instead of kicking, screaming, scratching and spitting the way I made them bring me in. Compared to me, you've been almost painless!!


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

I just happen to like Red Bull lol. So riding LT or BM doesn't count as shredding gnar? 

Yes, I will admit that I am guilty of blatant Mountain Dew MTBer-style d00shbaggery. Lessons are being learned and I am passing on my knowledge to this summer's flock of n00bs, which no one seems to have the time or patience to educate right now. Gotta get that KOM I suppose.

I know a dept. store bike when I see one and will always stop to gauge the riders n00bness. A lot can be learned in a 15-minute chat, something I didn't get from the more experienced riders until after I joined the club. Nearly 4 months after I started riding. 4 months of not knowing that trails closed, not knowing to yield to uphill riders, just plain not knowing squat about the politics and inner workings of MTB culture. MTB clubs excel at gaining land access and building sweet singletrack, but at least in my experience, they fall short when it comes to new rider education and assimilation. It's easy to sit back and complain about trail rut and soil erosion and the like, but it does no good if the perpetrators have no idea that what they are doing is wrong. For example, I was discussing this very thing with 2 new riders at Sunderbruch last night and they "had no clue there was so much science behind it all". I told them if they wanted to see a good example of trail destruction due to abuse and neglect that they should head over to Loud Thunder and check out those "mountain bike" trails. I wonder if I hadn't said anything to them how long it would be before they knew what was up? 2 weeks, 4 months, a year? Who knows? But now they know, and with any luck they will tell their friends and they will tell their friends and on and on until we are all riding the trails together in perfect harmony.


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## Vibrato (Apr 4, 2007)

Dood, you're insulting us again. Since you started this thread and you keep insulting the club that built your trails, I will presume you are ok with the thread hijack...

When I joined this club there were less than 20 members and we had Sylvan Island, which was a mess compared to today, and LT which was a royal pain to clean up after the equestrians.

Now we are one of the largest MTB clubs in the midwest with 4 NICE parks and we just hosted the Midwest Mountain Bike Fest and the World Championship of Dodgetyre. I have personally put on 3 MTB 101's THIS YEAR ALREADY and had plenty of help from other members. Compared to the population in this area, this club is so big we have 6 times as many brew pubs as other areas our size!

Do you really think a club that is this popular and successful should have to defend itself against accusations from you- a disgruntled member who was welcomed ONTO OUR BOARD and then quit, TWICE, because we repeatedly asked you to stop riding closed trails becaue you think riding a fatbike on closed trails is ok? We welcomed you onto our BOARD, and YOU blew US off. With your insults, you're still DEWing it. 


Also- this is not a job, nor are we recruiters. This is a hobby that we do to enjoy ourselves 1st and foremost. I build stuff because I like to ride it- that is the ONLY reason and frankly, having to put lines that people with your lack of skill can ride around things that are utterly fantastic and adrinaline charging is getting old. Ever heard of the green trails? Ride there and you won't hit your handlebars or pedals. 

I cannot imagine riding the trails we have now and thinking they came about by some trail fairy waiving a wand to clear the corridor and sprinkling pixy dust where the bench should go. 

One of my 1st questions to K-rud when we started riding was Who built these? How did they get permission? I had never heard of FORC.

NOW- You CANNOT ride a trail in this area without seeing a FORC sticker, its on every sign and marquee, vehicle, mountain bike, and carved into every 3rd downed log over 30+ miles of singletrack. It would seem to me we left plenty of clues for anyone who cares to find them. Some people won't care and will resist attemptws to kindly show them the light.

What do we DEW with them? NOTHING- We love nothing more than to have people see our efforts are time consuming and offer to bring beer, help out and ride with us. 

There will always be those dew riders who spend more time insulting us on MTBR than helping build or clean trails. I can dew without those people. You might find on a forum where mountain bikers are talkiing about building trails, this is fairly common.

Again- Ride your dam bike and chill out.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Woah, again I'm not trying to insult! Not accusing or blaming or any other words that carry a negative connotation. A lot of new riders have no clue that it's a volunteer group that builds and manages the trails. They think it's the city or some other entity that gets paid to do it, or random kids just building trails wherever they please.

Regarding the point about Loud Thunder, it wasn't to say that FORC neglected it and it went to heck, but that without the clubs efforts and the abuse by another user group that it has become what it is today.

Remember that video I posted awhile back with the peeps riding Kickapoo Up down hill? They rode right past the FORC signage and completely ignored it. Signage is great and all but it is still a passive means of communication. Nothing says "Hey don't ride the trail this way!" like a dude saying it to your face, know what I mean?

Yes, I did get myself in to a ration of poo for riding Sunderbruch when it was closed. I was out riding 1 hour before the trails opened. I even saw a handful of FORCers there. They had permission to check out the trail conditions, I did not. That is where I went wrong. I have spoken with jimithng since that last incident and since then I have always checked with him first before going to check trail conditions. Gotta respect the structure.

I think we need to have a brew, conveying ideas and opinions over the internet kinda sucks!


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

Vibrato said:


> I build stuff because I like to ride it- that is the ONLY reason and frankly, having to put lines that people with your lack of skill can ride around things that are utterly fantastic and adrinaline charging is getting old. Ever heard of the green trails? Ride there and you won't hit your handlebars or pedals.


I wanted to address this point separately since it's kind of a personal attack.

We haven't ridden together since the SIS and even then I wouldn't say we rode together since you finished a full 20 minutes ahead of me. I raced in a class beyond my skill level and I consider myself lucky I didn't DFL. I raced in that class against all advice that I should race in the novice class. I should have raced novice but I wanted to ride with the fat bikes.

I learned a lot from that race. Bike setup was all wrong and I paid for it with sciatica for a good week, ouch! I learned to trust my bike and go with the flow. I also learned that there are some fast friggin d00ds out there.

In my original post I only asked about the bar-catching trees because I noticed some of the reroutes at SCP avoided some of those trees or a tree was removed altogether. I was like "Hey, where the f did that tree go?". I wasn't implying I was having a problem with my bars clipping trees. As a matter of fact, bar-catchers are one of my favorite types of obstacles because I've had very good luck threading my bars through them (knock on wood, or not?). Pedal striking on the other hand was an issue I had quite a bit on the Mukluk, it was just more pronounced on the new trail. My new bike doesn't have that problem, whew!

So at risk of sounding like a sissy, the attack on my skill level kinda hurt my feelings, especially coming from an MTBer that I look up to.


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## Vibrato (Apr 4, 2007)

(sigh) Dood, all this blather is irrelevant. I know you don't see how you are being insulting a lot, ands that's why we are constantly trying to cut you some slack. You completely missed why your post was insulting. let me be more clear.

You saying FORC doesn't do enough for noobs because you found a couple we haven't informed yet would be like you telling Ron Jeremy he needs to sleep with more women because you found one that he hasn't been with. 

And I've done enough to try to turn your lightbulb on for one lifetime. 

Look, Something shiney.


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## dgw2jr (Aug 17, 2011)

OK OK. Chilling and going out for a ride. 

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## Vibrato (Apr 4, 2007)

Sweet, bro. The worlds a better place when we just chill and ride.


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