# Making a Hardtail ride as smooth as possible



## kyle204 (Apr 12, 2010)

I'm currently in the market for a new bike as I detailed in a post earlier in the week. I've recently started riding more aggressive trails and my current bike isn't really setup for them. I currently have an aluminum Niner EMD 9 with 100mm travel, aluminum bar, 2.35 front tire and 2.25 rear tire on 23 inner diameter rims. I was debating between getting a more aggressive hardtail or a full suspension. I feel as though a more aggressive hardtail with more travel and a dropper would be a vast improvement over my current bike on the steep declines, but if I choose to go with another hardtail I'd like to find something that is a lot more comfortable over the long rock and root sections where I seem to take a beating currently. I love the simplicity and low maintenance of a hardtail but my ride quality will need to improve substantially to consider one over a full suspension.

I'm looking for some feedback on a number of items in terms of how they would help create a smoother ride:

*Chromoly vs Aluminum Frame*
I've heard chromoly frames ride substantially smoother than aluminum frames, but haven't ridden one personally. Is there any truth to this? If I go the hardtail route I'd be looking to build up a frame. If chromoly is a way smoother ride I'd likely be looking at the RSD Middle Child and if I went aluminum I'd likely go with a Nukeproof Scout.

*29 vs 27.5+*
I'd likely be looking to run a 2.5 or 2.6 tire on a 29er setup and a 2.8 on a 27.5+ setup and would ensure the rim would be wide enough to fit the tires properly. I've only ever ridden a 29er so I have no idea if there would be any difference in comfort. What would be the better option? My current 29er is a beast on non-technical climbs and doesn't have much trouble getting up steep rock faces and I wouldn't want to sacrifice this if the 27.5+ wouldn't be as good.

*Components*
I've heard a carbon bar can make for a much smoother ride than an aluminum bar. In addition to this are there any other component selections that I should be considering?

I'm basically trying to figure out if I build a new hardtail factoring in everything above will it be a vast improvement on my current Niner through long rough sections or is my best bet to keep the Niner for XC trails and pick up a full suspension for more aggressive trails.

Thanks


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## Undescended (Apr 16, 2018)

Cane Creek Thudbuster seatpost smooths out the ride over the rock and root washboards for me... yea, not a dropper


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

There are some critical issues at play with hardtails that are really difficult to quantify on paper. The only way to figure it out is to ride the bikes in question.

Many XC hardtails can be really harsh bikes. Not just stiff, but they have a resonant frequency that can exhaust you. This can occur regardless of the material used. It has more to do with the construction, which is why it's hard to quantify and put on a spec sheet. Cheaper bikes often suffer from this, but also just any bike where the manufacturer didn't put enough energy into a good ride "feel" for the frame. There are some aluminum frames that ride pretty nice these days because the way the frame is built is more dialed.

Some steel or Ti bikes can be noodly, which isn't desirable, either. Too much flex can be pretty unpleasant.

How much suspension you have (and how well you're able to dial it in for yourself) will make a difference, too. With only 100mm of suspension, you don't have a whole lot to work with. With more travel, it has more of an opportunity to make a major difference in the ride. Adjustments that let you tune it well can put it at a whole other level of comfort and performance, too.

Tires also make a big difference. While suspension does the job for bigger hits, your tires do more of the work for smaller stuff. So everything associates with your tires is a factor here. Go too far to the "big tire" side and you'll start seeing a whole other set of drawbacks, though. I'm really liking the 2.5-2.6" range for my hardtail right now and I ride it on some pretty tough terrain.

I also don't hold stock that "carbon bars are more comfortable" either. Again, it all comes down to how they're made. I've had some good quality carbon bars that were REALLY stiff and actually hurt my hands when landing small drops. I specifically look for bars that advertise that they've got some flex or comfort features. Currently on aluminum Spank Vibrocores with a 31.8mm clamp diameter (bigger diameter means stiffer). It's true that SOME carbon bars can be more comfortable, but they've gotta be made to be comfortable. Not just any carbon bar will do it.

I don't hold that a suspension seatpost is the right solution, either. If you're riding a hardtail over tech like that, you should be hovering your butt above the saddle instead of planting it and relying on a squishy seatpost to do the work for you. If you want to sit down and pedal through technical terrain, that's what a full suspension is for.

I don't have any solid answers because a lot is just going to depend on what you like.


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

Demo a short travel FS.


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## kyle204 (Apr 12, 2010)

Harold said:


> There are some critical issues at play with hardtails that are really difficult to quantify on paper. The only way to figure it out is to ride the bikes in question.
> 
> Many XC hardtails can be really harsh bikes. Not just stiff, but they have a resonant frequency that can exhaust you. This can occur regardless of the material used. It has more to do with the construction, which is why it's hard to quantify and put on a spec sheet. Cheaper bikes often suffer from this, but also just any bike where the manufacturer didn't put enough energy into a good ride "feel" for the frame. There are some aluminum frames that ride pretty nice these days because the way the frame is built is more dialed.
> 
> ...


Thanks, this is all good info.


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## kyle204 (Apr 12, 2010)

keen said:


> Demo a short travel FS.


Something in the 130 front/120 rear range? I have been eying the Marin Rift Zone and Santa Cruz Tallboy if I were to go in that direction.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

kyle204 said:


> Something in the 130 front/120 rear range? I have been eying the Marin Rift Zone and Santa Cruz Tallboy if I were to go in that direction.


Try a range of options. Try bikes with less, and try bikes with more. Try to hone in on what works best for you and the way you ride. Same thing goes for hardtails.

A couple years ago, I was shopping around for both a hardtail and a longer travel full suspension than what I already had (broader range of trails where I moved to). I could only buy one bike at that time, but I didn't know which to buy first. I did a lot of demo rides. The FS bikes I tried were okay, but somewhat underwhelming for me. The hardtails I rode got me excited to ride. So I bought the hardtail first. I rented from shops, did manufacturer demos, and tried out people's personal bikes that they let me demo.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

+ tires at low pressure.


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## Sideknob (Jul 14, 2005)

keen said:


> Demo a short travel FS.


This.


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## GeePhroh (Jan 13, 2004)

This definitely isn't for everybody, but check out this NSMB piece:

https://nsmb.com/articles/personal-rides-andrews-custom-waltworks-v2/

FWIW, he rides this thing fully rigid at the Shore. One of the keys is Cushcore with 2.8 tires.

Buddy of mine in Bellingham has been riding his Chromag Rootdown everywhere lately and claims that his cushcore fundamentally changed his opinion of the bike...


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## Undescended (Apr 16, 2018)

Harold said:


> ...
> I don't hold that a suspension seatpost is the right solution, either. If you're riding a hardtail over tech like that, you should be hovering your butt above the saddle instead of planting it and relying on a squishy seatpost to do the work for you. If you want to sit down and pedal through technical terrain, that's what a full suspension is for...


That I also do, hover over the seatpost, which exemplifies the brilliance of its design as the while the seat is straddled by your legs, it moves with your body movement minimizing any bucking effect... sure it's not great for excessive Gnar but it cured my bout with sciatica... 3 months till IZZO:cryin:


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

29” wheels smooth out the ride noticeably compared to smaller wheels. So there’s that.

Next, run a 2.5 or bigger in the back either with a thick casing or an insert. I currently have a Maxxis Aggressor with the double down casing on the back of my Honzo, without an insert. I run it at about 22 psi and can slam into roots and rocks pretty hard without any issues. Running it down at 20-22 psi really helps take the edge off. With an insert you could go even lower and maybe offset the weight with a slightly lighter casing. I’m not the biggest fan of the plus tires or large volume, but thin casing 2.6” tires like the Maxxis Rekon. I have one of those up front right now because I’ve been doing more XC lately, but my slightly smaller Minion DHF 2.5 is way more confidence inspiring, and barely rolls any slower. 

One often overlooked component on hardtails is the brakes. If you’re going to ride it aggressively in technical terrain, then having the best brakes you can get is going to ensure you can stay OFF the brakes as much as possible, which means you’ll have a smoother ride. I use 4-piston Zees and a 203mm rotor up front and a 180 in back. I intend to put a 203 in back eventually.

Finally, make sure you’ve got 120-140mm of *quality* travel up front. 100mm ain’t enough, regardless of quality. 120 can be, as long as it’s a good fork and you’ve got a fairly slack HA with it.

Other than that, you should NEVER be sitting down when descending and stand up more when you climb. I only sit down and pedal when it’s smooth.


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## beer_coffee_water (Mar 1, 2011)

If you want to get deep into hardtails, you can start by watching hardtailparty's youtube channel. He covers a lot of different frames of all materials. He is pretty informative and willing to to be clear on what works and what doesn't. And his trail in Arizona are always fun to watch him ride.

No to sleight Undescended, but a dropper is going to be better than a thudbuster because they free up you legs to be you suspension on the fun stuff while riding a hardtail.


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## kyle204 (Apr 12, 2010)

beer_coffee_water said:


> If you want to get deep into hardtails, you can start by watching hardtailparty's youtube channel. He covers a lot of different frames of all materials. He is pretty informative and willing to to be clear on what works and what doesn't. And his trail in Arizona are always fun to watch him ride.
> 
> No to sleight Undescended, but a dropper is going to be better than a thudbuster because they free up you legs to be you suspension on the fun stuff while riding a hardtail.


Way ahead of you on this one. I came across his channel shortly after starting this thread and have already learned a lot. It seems like all things being equal a chromoly frame will be more supple than an aluminum frame however there are both stiff and supple frames for each. I know he mentions the MiddleChild not being the supplest chromoly frame but I'd assume it's still more supple than a lot of aluminum frames. If I stuck with aluminum I'd definitely want to find a more supple frame. I know he mentions the Orbea Laufy, Kona Honzo, and Specialized Fuse as stiffer frames but the Salsa Timberjack and Santa Cruz Chameleon as more supple, albeit with less aggressive geometry. Those were all bikes I was looking at so I was interested in getting some additional opinions on them. I was also curious if anyone has any feedback on the suppleness of the Nukeproof Scout or Rocky Mountain Growler.

The other big take away from the Hardtail Party is that he really seems to prefer the 27.5+ tire over a 29 x 2.6 or 2.5. I think my preference would be to remain with a 29 wheel. I'm curious how much extra cushion the 27.5 x 2.8 would really give over a 29 x 2.6 run on an appropriately wide rim. I'd imagine a 29 x 2.6 on a 35id rim would be substantially softer than my current 2.35/2.25 setup on a 23id rim.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

So I love hard tails. Going to give you some advice that maybe wasn't hit upon... First - smoothest ride will be big volume 29er wheels. I'd try source a known compliant steel frame. Interestingly, this is almost polar opposite of what I ride... the biggest impact is how you ride it so know that going in.

A few subtle things that add to the ride:

Grips - your contact points matter quite a bit
Carbon bars (31.8) - specific models that are known to have flex or damping
Flat pedals with gummy compliant soles vs. hard soled clips
Aluminum rims chosen to have flex, maybe laced to have slightly lower spoke tension
A fork that is tuned or chosen to be fairly active and travel to match - going for supple, easy initial break-away on chatter and the like
I also think that slightly longer stays help in the compliance feel

FWIW I currently ride a 27.5 2.6 chromoly frame with burly tubing and al bars (vibrocore) - it's a whip but not compliant.

Edit to add: a goal like this isn't going to be just one or two items, it will be the sum of a bunch of small things. micro-changes and progressions that eventually will add up. also - if you are into this aesthetic that's cool, I get it that's where I'm at too - but the best HT will never result in a "smoother" ride than a short travel FS.


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## kyle204 (Apr 12, 2010)

Carl Mega said:


> So I love hard tails. Going to give you some advice that maybe wasn't hit upon... First - smoothest ride will be big volume 29er wheels. I'd try source a known compliant steel frame. Interestingly, this is almost polar opposite of what I ride... the biggest impact is how you ride it so know that going in.
> 
> A few subtle things that add to the ride:
> 
> ...


Any recommendations on compliant steel frames? I was initially interested in the MiddleChild as I love the geo, but Hardtail Party said it wasn't the most supple frame. Any modern geo steel frames out there that are a little more supple?


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

kyle204 said:


> Any modern geo steel frames out there that are a little more supple?


I don't have any off the top of my head as that's not what I've been looking for. However, the things I'd be looking for are: specifically calling out butted tubing, maybe pay attention to the diameters, anything that has cs yoke or beefy bridge is not helping, look for a frame where it's clear they were targeting a sensible weight.

If you were taking this to the next level, talking with a custom builder could get you sorted. Also - generally speaking Ti would be a awesome target material...but you are not in the land of $400 frames anymore.

Using just horse-sense: if I wanted more compliance, picking the Chromag Wideangle or Rootdown would have made more sense than the Stylus I ride. That 1lb of weight difference went straight to the tubeset.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

kyle204 said:


> Any recommendations on compliant steel frames? I was initially interested in the MiddleChild as I love the geo, but Hardtail Party said it wasn't the most supple frame. Any modern geo steel frames out there that are a little more supple?


Generally speaking, the rowdier the bike is built to be ridden, the stiffer the frame is going to be.

My Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead is a pretty stiff frame. I don't find it to be a harsh bike, but then again, I've also built it with comfort in mind. I've got 29x2.6 tires on it. I'm using 30mm aluminum rims that aren't too burly to give me a little compliance there. I've got my fork set up to give decent small bump sensitivity, too. I'm using alu Vibrocore bars to take some sting off the hands, plus I use fat, cushy grips (my long fingers like fat grips and the cush also helps with comfort). It's a 31+lb hardtail that feels pretty good to me. Much better than my early hardtails from 20+yrs ago.

That said, is it a compliant steel frame? Ehhhhh, not nearly as much as my Salsa Vaya, in comparison. But that's also not a mountain bike, and it could also be even more compliant, since it's built to handle a bit of a load on racks.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

kyle204 said:


> Any recommendations on compliant steel frames? I was initially interested in the MiddleChild as I love the geo, but Hardtail Party said it wasn't the most supple frame. Any modern geo steel frames out there that are a little more supple?


IIRC, Steve seemed to think the Banshee Paradox was pretty supple. It's got some funky stay bridge work to build in flex.

As Harold mentioned just before me- Ride stiffness is subjective, and there's more factors than just frame. Even beyond tire size. casing type will effect- Maxxis EXO vs DD; or supple brands like Schwalbe.

Ultimately, it'll boil down to just *HOW* rowdy you intend to get. If you're looking to stick to blue and light-black trails, most steel frames will be great. If you have aspirations to go "full-send" on some Squamish jank... well, then average ride quality is less important; as long as it doesn't rattle like an alloy baseball bat it'll be an improvement.


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## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Just throwing this out there, I rode Captain Ahab in Moab this year on my 29" Honzo --2.6 Maxxis Rekon up front, Ardent Race 2.35 in the back (that tire wasn't quite up to the task, however). Some people would say it's a pretty gnarly trail. 

I rode absolutely every feature and didn't get beat up too bad. It was a very enjoyable ride, in fact. I wasn't riding to set any speed records, but I wasn't slow either. The next day I went back on my enduro bike with a friend, and I don't think we went any faster (he's not as fast as me). It wasn't necessarily more fun either.


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## beer_coffee_water (Mar 1, 2011)

To take on the suppleness question, I find my 2016 Honzo to be pretty supple. I swapped everything over from a 2013 and noticed the difference in complience just riding. It was weird I thought my rear tire was low. I know Steve didn't think the Honzo was as supple as his Paradox or Middlechild Ti, which is most likely true. To me, the Honzo is compliant even with its yoke, but I have 40 lbs on him. The shaping of the 2015 and onward rear center tubing is drastically different from 2012-2014. 

As everyone else has said complianance is subjective. You don't want a noodle though, because riding a flexy hardtail is more work for you and saps your energy faster. I think once I am ready to replace my Honzo, it will be either a Stylus or Middlechild.


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## AJ Morris (Jul 4, 2020)

As Harold pointed out, materials are less important than design & engineering. A good frame designer should have put some thought into how the bike is intended to be used. The steel Middlechild is not a supple bike, though I wouldn't quite call it harsh either. It's designed to get rowdy and it is an absolute riot to ride.

As others have mentioned, good technique is as big a factor as the bike itself. A lot depends on what sort of experience you are after.

One bike that has caught my eye recently is the new steel version of the Sonder Signal. Looking at the geometry, it won't be as rowdy as the Middlechild, but probably more well-rounded. The folks at Sonder said the designer Neil, spent a lot of time working on getting a compliant-yet-resonsive ride. Might be worth a look...


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## gbc (Jun 5, 2010)

I ride a Kingdom Vendetta HT and in many ways, its all the bike I could ever need...its a lot of fun, very capable and all-round with perfect geometry and Ti really is the perfect material for a HT...to make a HT ride more smooth starts with you trying to be as relaxed and smooth without grabbing the bars too tight and relax your legs, arms and grip...
However, Rimpact tyre inserts allowed me to run much lower tyre pressures and that made the ride considerably smoother, not only due to the "cushioning" but also the dampening they provide.


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## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Here's a YT channel with current reviews of hardtails. Should give you a better range of info.
https://www.youtube.com/c/hardtailparty/videos
Putting together a compliant ht is a process. Even the midsoles of your shoes can matter.
These bars are back in stock.
https://www.oneupcomponents.com/products/carbon-bar


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

For me it starts with a good steel frame. Nothing rides like a good quality steel frame, except Ti, sometimes. Aluminum doesn't ride like steel unless you're comparing two horribly overbuilt frames to one an other that both ride like ****. 

Other key ingredients are high volume rims and tires at low pressure. Compliant carbon handlebars, and a long dropper. 

That's the bulk of what you can do to make any hardtail ride as well as possible.


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## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

Lots of good suggestions here but I'll add that I put a coil fork (Marz. Z1) on my Chromag and it certainly makes the ride smoother and makes the front end more planted over rougher trails.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

My $0.02

I ride a Nukeproof Scout 290 HT.

Some say it's harsh.

Couldn't confirm our deny such claims as it's the only 'real' HT mountain bike I've owned.

Use to own Diamond Back Sorrento and a KHS Winslow, but do not consider these to be real mountain bikes.

Re, the Scout 290, it's more engaging than my FS rigs.

To help smooth things out, speed and line choice are important. Momentum is your friend.

Re, bike setup - good sized rubber 2.5 and over certainly helps soak up smaller trail chatter.

A good sturdy fork 140mm plus travel. Pike or better for peace of mind.

A dropper post, particularly if you like to ride gnarly trails. Your natural suspension i.e. legs and arms play a bigger role on HT's.

You don't want to be seated on an aggressive HT whilst riding aggressive terrain.

Contact points next... Good grips, comfortable saddle & flat pedals w/ good shoes.

All of these can help get a smoother ride. 

Sent from my HD1900 using Tapatalk


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

All else equal, a wheelset built with Berd spokes is substantially more compliant than with any other spokes.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm currently on a bmx kick, and one is STIFF aluminum race bike. Yeah, you can feel a difference between a nice chromoly frame and a harsh aluminum one, but they're still both ultimately harsh and unpleasant. My XC 29" hardtail has more fatiguing buzz than a steel playful bike, but same thing. I still feel beat up if its rough. 

If you're looking for true huge differences, I don't believe it exists. All hardtails beat you up. If you hit a 2 root on ANY hardtail, your body is absorbing 2 inches worth of hit, period. You can change the frequency of the buzz, but not the intensity. You're taking the entire hit, minus the millimeters of flex from the bike/tires. On a FS bike you can plow that seated and not feel it, its eaten by the suspension.

I like maintaining my full suspension bikes. For me, its not a chore or a downside at all. every few years they get bearings, every few months I'll do a minor shock service. It never actually prevents me from riding or interrupts trail time. I wouldn't let maintenance steer your decision too much.


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## HrznRider (Aug 21, 2011)

Everyone's points above are correct. My summary (echoing most of what folks have said already):

- Test ride each bike (a bike is a sum it it's parts, not just the frame; there are better and worse for each frame material type)
- Bigger tires definitely help with taking some edge off
- Carbon bars definitely help with your hand/arms
- Consider your saddle (a cushier more supportive saddle is going feel better than a bare minimum XC race saddle
- Longer chain stay will soften the harshness a bit
- Condition yourself to primarily be out of saddle when riding
- A good plush, yet supportive fork up front so it's taking care of business up front and letting you party and dance behind


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## dsciulli19 (Apr 14, 2014)

Didn't read the whole thread but you can now have your cake and eat it too, at least where the dropper post is concerned:

https://www.pnwcomponents.com/products/coast-suspension-dropper-post-external?variant=28488424587341

120MM dropper w/ 40mm suspension travel. I know if I was riding a hardtail I'd have one.

Also 29"x2.6" w/ cushcore.

As others have said, check out Hardtail Party on youtube.

-DS


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

I've been playing around with tire setup and inserts on my hardtail lately to try and make is ride less harshly. I had been running Rimpacts (light inserts) and recently thought instead of running two light inserts front and rear maybe it would make more sense just to run one heavier insert (Cushcore Pro) in the rear to smooth out the rear. I already had a CC Pro insert laying around from previously running it on my enduro bike. I figured the improvement in ride quality and damping should be most noticeable on hardtail. I was a bit surprised how little of difference it made. I could tell it muted the high frequency stuff (like gravel and <1/2" roots,etc) but on everything else (bigger, roots, rocks, landings, etc) it made an insignificant difference. I guess the issue is that tires just don't have much 'travel'. 

Running cushcore actually made a more noticeable difference on my enduro bike. I guess because the enduro bike already did a good job of smoothing out bigger bumps that the reduction in higher frequency stuff was more noticeable.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

you want hardtail to ride smooth ?

hit the gym


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## Dirtriding4life (Sep 20, 2005)

jeremy3220 said:


> I've been playing around with tire setup and inserts on my hardtail lately to try and make is ride less harshly. I had been running Rimpacts (light inserts) and recently thought instead of running two light inserts front and rear maybe it would make more sense just to run one heavier insert (Cushcore Pro) in the rear to smooth out the rear. I already had a CC Pro insert laying around from previously running it on my enduro bike. I figured the improvement in ride quality and damping should be most noticeable on hardtail. I was a bit surprised how little of difference it made. I could tell it muted the high frequency stuff (like gravel and <1/2" roots,etc) but on everything else (bigger, roots, rocks, landings, etc) it made an insignificant difference. I guess the issue is that tires just don't have much 'travel'.
> 
> Running cushcore actually made a more noticeable difference on my enduro bike. I guess because the enduro bike already did a good job of smoothing out bigger bumps that the reduction in higher frequency stuff was more noticeable.


I'm surprised to hear this. I was running Cushcore XC on my Canfield EPO F/R and just switched to Cushcore Pro on the rear and I noticed a significant difference. I lowered tire pressure from 24 to 21 psi on a 2.4 XR4 with i30 rims and it feels like the bike has a much more plush or muted feel over roots, rocks, and small chatter. I'm less worried about pinch flats with the rigid rear end and low pressures and haven't noticed a difference in weight. Its become the perfect light trail bike and I wouldn't change a thing for our mostly smooth trails in Bend. I'd recommend anyone on the fence about getting rid of their hardtail for a full squish to try Cushcore Pro. Of course, I've got an enduro bike for trails that warrant it so that could make my situation different.

Also, I had a GG Pedalhead before the Canfield EPO and can confidently say the ride of the Canfield is more forgiving than the GG. I hope they make an updated version of the bike now that they're producing bikes again. It's super light and has good geo for its time. Almost modern now.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

The Cushcore does take the edge off chatter but when going over larger bumps I still think the wheel gets displaced just as much. Maybe the initial impact is dulled but overall the back of the bike is moving around like 98% of what it was before the insert.


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## kyle204 (Apr 12, 2010)

targnik said:


> My $0.02
> 
> I ride a Nukeproof Scout 290 HT.
> 
> ...


The Scout was a bike I was seriously considering if I went aluminum. It gets pretty favourable reviews and is substantially cheaper than the Banshee Paradox. The one thing that has me concerned is the low BB drop. Do you find you get a lot of pedal strikes? What type of terrain are you mostly riding?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

kyle204 said:


> The Scout was a bike I was seriously considering if I went aluminum. It gets pretty favourable reviews and is substantially cheaper than the Banshee Paradox. The one thing that has me concerned is the low BB drop. Do you find you get a lot of pedal strikes? What type of terrain are you mostly riding?


BB height and BB drop are two different things that are related, but not identical. Make sure you know the difference.


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## kyle204 (Apr 12, 2010)

Harold said:


> BB height and BB drop are two different things that are related, but not identical. Make sure you know the difference.


I think I may have had a little misunderstanding on them. However, the Scout still appears to have a pretty low BB height at 300 which is the lowest out of all the bikes I'm looking at. Does a large drop number impact the likelihood of strikes at all or is it all based on the actual height?


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

I would go with the full suspension. Of all the maintenance I've on my fs bikes over the past seven years, the rear linkages and shocks were a very small part of it.


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## mnigro (Jul 31, 2007)

I’m on a Cotic SolarisMax with a 2.6 XR2 and cushcore pro in the back. Most smooth hardtail I’ve ridden besides a buddy’s 27.5 x2.8 on 40iw rims. Neither is as smooth as any full suspension bike. 

Hardtail Party has released a ton of new frame reviews recently. His reviews are pretty insightful.


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## kyle204 (Apr 12, 2010)

mnigro said:


> I'm on a Cotic SolarisMax with a 2.6 XR2 and cushcore pro in the back. Most smooth hardtail I've ridden besides a buddy's 27.5 x2.8 on 40iw rims. Neither is as smooth as any full suspension bike.
> 
> Hardtail Party has released a ton of new frame reviews recently. His reviews are pretty insightful.


I've definitely been eyeing the Solaris Max, Nimble 9, and Paradox after watching his reviews. All of them seem like they'd be a great starting point.


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## mnigro (Jul 31, 2007)

He seemed to really like the new Honzo a lot, too. I haven’t watched the entire review yet. 

I had a few AL HT frames years ago and more recently, some overbuilt steel frames. I didn’t see much difference between those - all harsh in comparison to a good steel frame. 

I have no experience with Carbon or Ti hardtails.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

I am riding a 2018 Canfield Nimble9 with a rigid fork. The frame has that real steel feel and "pop". The frame manners are obvious (is "very obvious" redundant?) with the rigid fork installed.

I have 29x2.5/2.4 tires front/rear on 25mm internal rims. I do get some rim strikes. At some point I will get wider rims, but overall the set-up is really good. Most people run a 140mm fork, and the current 2020-2021 model probably doesn't even ride right with anything less. Very much worth a look.

-F


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## radred (Jan 21, 2012)

To smooth out the rides, running somewhat lighter tires at lower pressures with tire inserts (at least in the rear tire) has helped more than anything I've tried. That's still a marginal gain because riding a hardtail in the gnar is never gonna be that smooth. I have to find the line and make it smooth through bike handling finesse rather than bike tech. Honestly that's a big part of why I love riding my hardtail. The other fun part is that they are more nimble and accelerate so much faster than full squish.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Fleas said:


> I am riding a 2018 Canfield Nimble9 with a rigid fork. The frame has that real steel feel and "pop". The frame manners are obvious (is "very obvious" redundant?) with the rigid fork installed.
> 
> I have 29x2.5/2.4 tires front/rear on 25mm internal rims. I do get some rim strikes. At some point I will get wider rims, but overall the set-up is really good. Most people run a 140mm fork, and the current 2020-2021 model probably doesn't even ride right with anything less. Very much worth a look.
> 
> -F


That, and learn how to ride loose and work the terrain.

-F


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## senorbanana (May 11, 2017)

I just got a Ti frame with cushcore and its the smoothest hardtail I have had yet. My chameleon was not bad though, its mostly learning to ride them (lots of knee dancing)


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## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

I own two aluminum hardtails, designed very differently. One of them has a single oval tube that connects the U shaped, single tube seatstays to the front triangle. This has a very direct ride and I can feel the full sting of the hits.

The other one has unbraced seat and chain stays with very curvy, keyhole shaped tubes. On this one the hits are a tiny bit more subtle, but I'm still pretty beaten up by the end of a 3-4hr ride on the mountains. 

I've tried various other ht's but one stood out as having the best riding qualities - The Production Privee Shan 27.5. It's steel and the stays are flattened in the middle and non heat treated according to PP. I've borrowed this from a friend and rode it for two weeks on very familiar trails and the ride is subtly softer. It's not an in-your-face difference, but at some point you notice that it flows a bit better over rock gardens. You can still feel every single hit, but it's not as direct as on my own bikes. It's nowhere close to having rear suspension, but I guess that at the end of the day you would feel a little bit less beaten up.

So my suggestion for the OP is to look up the Shan GT, PP's 29"/27+ offering. If the geometry and sizing looks good to you it's one sweet riding frame. Just bear in mind that they tend to ride small (short ETT and reach for a given size). They are very nice looking frames IMHO as well, which is always a good thing.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

I have own many hardtails.....honestly to many to list.

I am now riding a 2020 Canfield N9 with a 150mm Pike Ultimate, WTB 35mm rims and specialized 2.6 tires Butcher Grid Trail front, eliminator Black Diamond rear.

I am 200lb even and I am running the tires at 18 psi front and 16psi rear(much stiffer casing) I am not getting tire squirm, and the ride is very cushy. It honestly feels like a 150mm/40mm bike with the tires, frame and fork. IMO the biggest determinding factor is rim width and tire width working in unison. Plus+ can be really cushy but can have so much squirm and tend to not "bite" into terrain that much. If was on flatter, Rockier, rooty Id probably run 27.5 x 2.8 on my N9 but I tend to ride steep loamy trails and the 2.6 29er tires give much more bite. In fact another good affect of those wide rims and wide tires is my N9 has more lateral grip in basically all surfaces of any bike I have owned some of that I am sure is the N9 magic but IMO most of that is the wide rims+2.6 inch tires.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

*Rimpact!*



gbc said:


> I ride a Kingdom Vendetta HT and in many ways, its all the bike I could ever need...its a lot of fun, very capable and all-round with perfect geometry and Ti really is the perfect material for a HT...to make a HT ride more smooth starts with you trying to be as relaxed and smooth without grabbing the bars too tight and relax your legs, arms and grip...
> However, Rimpact tyre inserts allowed me to run much lower tyre pressures and that made the ride considerably smoother, not only due to the "cushioning" but also the dampening they provide.


Rimpact is the best thing I have done on my bikes!


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

*Hardtail party*

I'm a sub and big fan of your channel. Even though I've owned and rode mostly hardtail's and single speeds for the past 20 years, your channel has perspective on building up and riding hardtail's that I never considered. And I ride a lot! 4-6x a week.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

*Berd spokes*



mikesee said:


> All else equal, a wheelset built with Berd spokes is substantially more compliant than with any other spokes.


Interesting, I've been a traditional steel WS spoke or DT Swiss spoke consumer. never bought the Ti spokes but have friends that do. 
Bern spokes do seem like an additional challenge to build, true or re-dish though. 
Have you been building wheels with them?


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

*Wider is better*

That Canfield N9 SS looks amazing! I'm in complete agreement with the i35mm rims with inserts. I use Rimpact regular inserts on my wheel sets with wider rims on all my hardtail's. The higher volume of a wider tire on a wider rim basically adds dampening benefits to your wheels without the downside of sidewall roll over. I'm 160# and on my 29x2.6" tires I drop it to 14 psi in the rear and I have a 29x2.8 and an i40 rim and drop it to 12, no problem. On my 27.5plus wheels I go wider i40 rear and i45mm front. 
The Rimpact do absorb my tire sealant so they're probably not as nice as the CC. But another benefit is the sealant works amazing with an inserts and sealed up a pretty big puncture securely. When I removed the tire it had packed up the latex from inside the tire and I didn't need to boot the tire.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

hardmtnbiker said:


> Interesting, I've been a traditional steel WS spoke or DT Swiss spoke consumer. never bought the Ti spokes but have friends that do.
> Bern spokes do seem like an additional challenge to build, true or re-dish though.
> Have you been building wheels with them?


Yep, I've built a few dozen sets, and I've been riding them on my own bikes for a few years too.

I wrote this when I first started building with them, and my opinion hasn't really changed in the intervening years.

Big Wheel Building: Berd spokes.


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## kyle204 (Apr 12, 2010)

BushwackerinPA said:


> I have own many hardtails.....honestly to many to list.
> 
> I am now riding a 2020 Canfield N9 with a 150mm Pike Ultimate, WTB 35mm rims and specialized 2.6 tires Butcher Grid Trail front, eliminator Black Diamond rear.
> 
> ...


What's your opinion on a 30id rim vs a 35id rim for a 2.6 tire? Obviously some brands run more true to size than others so that may factor in the decision. I've heard some people say 35's are too wide and feel slow and draggy, but on the flip side Steve from Hardtail Party seems to swear by wider rims.

Nice bike BTW.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

So its not completely apples to apples. 

but I am running my 27.5 FS bike with exactly the same tires on 30mm rims and quite frankly it kind of sucks. Basically no corner grip and no bit, and have to run higher pressure because the overall volume is lower. I am switching back to 2.4/2.3 on that bike until I can get some 35id rims on it.

In fact its kind of crazy that some companies like specialized sell 2.6 tires on 30mm rims and it make no sense to me after see how bad they are on 30mm rims. not sure how say 32mm rim affect it, but quite frankly from here on out I am running 2.6 tires on 35mm rim on my Single speed and will on my FS bike once I can build a new wheelset for it.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

kyle204 said:


> What's your opinion on a 30id rim vs a 35id rim for a 2.6 tire?


I've got Maxxis 29 x 2.6" DHF and DHRII on 30mm internal width rims. That seems like a nice tire width to rim width and I'd go with that again if I was building up new wheels.

Schwalbe 29 x 2.6" tires are bigger volume than Maxxis and I'd be inclined to go with 35mm internal width rims for them if I was planning on running them a lot.

I don't think there is a wrong answer between 30mm-35mm internal width for 2.6" tires. I'd go with one or the other depending on what tires I was planning on running.

_FWIW - I've also got Maxxis 29 x 2.8" tires on 40mm internal width rims and Bonty 29 x 3.0" tires on 45mm internal width rims. Those tires/rims work well together._


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

kyle204 said:


> I feel as though a more aggressive hardtail with more travel and a dropper would be a vast improvement over my current bike on the steep declines, but if I choose to go with another hardtail I'd like to find something that is a lot more comfortable over the long rock and root sections where I seem to take a beating currently. I love the simplicity and low maintenance of a hardtail but my ride quality will need to improve substantially to consider one over a full suspension.


You've got lots of good advice.

I've been riding hardtails a lot more lately in terrain I used to think of as FS bike territory. Modern geometry, bigger tires, inserts, nice compliant frames and a "light" riding style can do wonders for bridging the gap between HTs and FS bikes. That said I mostly ride HTs because they are fun not because they ride as well/comfortably as a FS bike.

Having tried all sorts of tires/wheel sizes I'm really liking 29 x 2.6" for aggressive trail riding. For less techy/less aggressive riding I'd move to a 29 x 2.8"/3.0" tire. Big volume tires are comfy, but they can be a challenge to setup right for really aggressive riding because the tires themselves act like an undamped spring.

Next up you really need to start with a compliant frame. If you get a stiff/harsh frame you won't end up with a pleasant experience. What's too stiff or too flexy really depends on the rider. A 120lbs chill rider might be find a frame too stiff that a 220lbs aggressive rider think is a noodle. There is no easy way around this other than to read lots of reviews and demo anything that comes your way. I'd rather ride a frame that's too flexy than one that's too stiff.

You also want a rim/wheel that's not awfully stiff. Skip anything deep profile. When in doubt stick with aluminum rims. You can get good ride quality out of carbon rims, but you really have to pay attention to what you buy. In most cases I'll buy metal rims and there are many good options.

At this point you've got a compliant frame, some big wheels with good volume tires and rims that are not harsh. The final piece of the puzzle is riding "light". If you slam into everything on the trail it's going to be hard on your body even on a FS bike. OTOH if you work your bike over the terrain actively it's not only a lot of fun, but you remove a lot of the punishment of riding a hardtail from the equation. Those of us who have been riding long enough to have start MTBing when rigid bikes were the only option were forced to learn those skills. But, anyone can get better at this with practice.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

BushwackerinPA said:


> So its not completely apples to apples.
> 
> but I am running my 27.5 FS bike with exactly the same tires on 30mm rims and quite frankly it kind of sucks. Basically no corner grip and no bit, and have to run higher pressure because the overall volume is lower. I am switching back to 2.4/2.3 on that bike until I can get some 35id rims on it.
> 
> In fact its kind of crazy that some companies like specialized sell 2.6 tires on 30mm rims and it make no sense to me after see how bad they are on 30mm rims. not sure how say 32mm rim affect it, but quite frankly from here on out I am running 2.6 tires on 35mm rim on my Single speed and will on my FS bike once I can build a new wheelset for it.


I've run i30 rim rear and i35mm front


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## Wheelspeed (Jan 12, 2006)

I'd suggest to ride a bunch of bikes. Often (before covid) bike shops would have a couple bikes you could rent for $50 for a day. Take your pedals, put them on, Totally worth it. Try some basics like a Specialized Short-Travel vs a 5010 or something. I think you'll feel when too much seems like too much to you. 

If Covid means you can't rent or test bikes well, then just get some thick downhill tires for your bike and rip it. You can still learn a lot during a season doing that and then hopefully test bikes the following year. On a hard tail, you'll learn a lot of technique. There's more to fast downhilling than just holding on tight and squinting your eyes. Choose good lines, unweight over bigger rocks, let the bike float over all the other rocks. When you're going so fast that you can't focus on things well, it's okay just worry about the big stuff and hop that big stuff. 

Seriously... it's going to be hard to talk you through this on a computer and tell you what to spend $3,000 on.

I mean, I never take my mtb to the jogging path because it's boring as hell riding on that. I want to be challenged. And I like doing group rides too. But there's always someone slow on a group ride, so, for both cases of liking challenges and doing group rides, I didn't want to be over-biked. It's boring to have too much bike for the trails I want to ride. In eastern PA where I grew up, I'd probably go for a 130 or 140mm bike. But here in Pittsburgh where it's more flowy, I like my 115/130mm 29er bike. (I specified 29er since that also maybe is like having an extra 20mm vs a 27.5 or 26er, although I'm not sure about that from experience with my 26'er hardtail, but magazines seem to suggest that.)

Then the other question if you climb much, or if you want to do long rides vs short, etc.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

mikesee said:


> Yep, I've built a few dozen sets, and I've been riding them on my own bikes for a few years too.
> 
> I wrote this when I first started building with them, and my opinion hasn't really changed in the intervening years.
> 
> Big Wheel Building: Berd spokes.


I read your website review on Berd spokes and I'm intrigue. I've been staying with aluminum rims for the fact I want my rims to have some compliance. A few that are my favorite are DT Swiss, RaceFace,Velocity and WTB. I've used Stan's too but they're my least favorite.
My spokes are mostly DT Swiss super comp and I have been using the longer brass nipples. 
I'm really curious how a nice compliant aluminum rim would ride with Berd spokes for my gravel bike. I think it might add a whole new level of comfort for all day rides.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

mikesee said:


> All else equal, a wheelset built with Berd spokes is substantially more compliant than with any other spokes.


I agree, I built up a set for a Ti Hardtail mainly for weight. It is significantly smoother now. Same lightbike rims. Gonna have to do my SS next.

Also consider what seatpost you are running. A nice Ti post or something like a Syntace HiFlex can help as well. It won't be suspension but it will help.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

hardmtnbiker said:


> I read your website review on Berd spokes and I'm intrigue. I've been staying with aluminum rims for the fact I want my rims to have some compliance. A few that are my favorite are DT Swiss, RaceFace,Velocity and WTB. I've used Stan's too but they're my least favorite.
> My spokes are mostly DT Swiss super comp and I have been using the longer brass nipples.
> I'm really curious how a nice compliant aluminum rim would ride with Berd spokes for my gravel bike. I think it might add a whole new level of comfort for all day rides.


Sorry -- I didn't get this when you wrote it.

I wholeheartedly reject the idea of alu rims having any "compliance".

I think adjusting your tire pressure by 1/4 of a psi makes a more noticeable and meaningful difference.


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## nativeson (Apr 4, 2005)

hit da pumptrack!!!!!


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

mikesee said:


> Sorry -- I didn't get this when you wrote it.
> 
> I wholeheartedly reject the idea of alu rims having any "compliance".
> 
> I think adjusting your tire pressure by 1/4 of a psi makes a more noticeable and meaningful difference.


I definitely think tire pressure plays a major role but I also think an aluminum rim allows flex that carbon rims have tried to mimic.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Lots of good suggestions, especially (IMO) ones suggesting fitness and technique but seriously,


keen said:


> Demo a short travel FS.


How does this make a hardtail ride smooth? Riding the full sus will likely make the hardtail feel LESS smooth, no? Or was it to appreciate that a hardtail is not supposed to feel like the FS?


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Lots of good suggestions, especially (IMO) ones suggesting fitness and technique but seriously,
> 
> How does this make a hardtail ride smooth? Riding the full sus will likely make the hardtail feel LESS smooth, no? Or was it to appreciate that a hardtail is not supposed to feel like the FS?


OP was trying to get the smoothest ride out of a hardtail and mentioned he is riding more aggressively. Buying a short travel FS would be a progressive answer for his next purchase.


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## chicodecali (Feb 19, 2016)

I just upgraded my wheels from 25mm to 30mm width and feel a lot less chatter or harshness, especially in the rear. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

keen said:


> OP was trying to get the smoothest ride out of a hardtail and mentioned he is riding more aggressively. Buying a short travel FS would be a progressive answer for his next purchase.


If only there were a Rigid/Hardtail forum, you could go there and try to convince everyone of that...


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

MattiThundrrr said:


> If only there were a Rigid/Hardtail forum, you could go there and try to convince everyone of that...


We should probably just demand that ONLY long travel full suspension bikes be made from now on, eh?


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## kyle204 (Apr 12, 2010)

keen said:


> OP was trying to get the smoothest ride out of a hardtail and mentioned he is riding more aggressively. Buying a short travel FS would be a progressive answer for his next purchase.


I actually did end up buying a Ibis Ripley AF. Just waiting for it to get to my bike shop. I still have an interest in this topic though and plan on building up a new hardtail at some point once bike parts inventory is back to normal.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

I went down this path 3 years ago.

It started with a trip to my LBS to pick up some lube, grips and other incidentals. I saw what ended up being my new hardtail sitting on the floor and it spoke to me. I bought it without throwing a leg over it. It was a 3 minute impulse purchase. I hadn't owned nor even considered a hardtail for almost 10 years.

That said, I had previously owned about 8 bikes from this brand and new what I was getting into, so it wasn't nearly as risky as this might sound.

My LBS offered to strip the crap SRAM components off it, give me decent value for them, and replace them with what I wanted.

I hadn't owned a hardtail for some time and was concerned how badly I would get beaten up on it. I set out to soften it up a bit, starting with the 2.3 DHF/DHF combo with which it was speced.

I tried to rebuild it for comfort and while I followed some of the things people have pointed out above, I also kinda screwed up a few things (e.g.; SixC bar).

That bike turned out to be the favorite bike I own, even with those "mistakes" (which have still not been addressed).

It has a sliding dropout. I have it slammed, resulting in effectively the shortest chain stay position, which is intoxicatingly fun on the trail (but also contrary to some advice above about longer chain stays smoothing things out).

I upped the travel from 120 to 140 when I swapped forks. Seems about right to me.

I went with id 30 carbon rims and a 2.5 DHF/Aggessor combo, which is perfect in my dry, desert like conditions.

I ride it everywhere I ride my Druid, almost as fast (much more a statement of how slow I ride my Druid than how fast I ride my hardtail).

I wonder about a few of the comments above. The one suggesting there is not much more maintenance with a FS is 100% contrary to my experience.

I am a lover of steel frames. I currently own 3 of them and love them all.

I will never get rid of that hardtail. I ride all my bikes lots, but my hardtail is still my favorite.

If I were to buy another one right now, I would be looking at a steel or ti Chromag. I would need to consider a few models before deciding which one.

No bike gets me more excited to ride than my hardtail.


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## dsciulli19 (Apr 14, 2014)

Whenever I switch from my hardtail to my FS, I always think my rear tire is too low on air or my shock needs to be pumped up. Nope, just the hardtail effect. 

-DS


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I went down this path 3 years ago.
> 
> It started with a trip to my LBS to pick up some lube, grips and other incidentals. I saw what ended up being my new hardtail sitting on the floor and it spoke to me. I bought it without throwing a leg over it. It was a 3 minute impulse purchase. I hadn't owned nor even considered a hardtail for almost 10 years.
> 
> ...


I'm excited just looking at it!


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I went down this path 3 years ago.
> 
> It started with a trip to my LBS to pick up some lube, grips and other incidentals. I saw what ended up being my new hardtail sitting on the floor and it spoke to me. I bought it without throwing a leg over it. It was a 3 minute impulse purchase. I hadn't owned nor even considered a hardtail for almost 10 years.
> 
> ...





mtnbkrmike said:


> I went down this path 3 years ago.
> 
> It started with a trip to my LBS to pick up some lube, grips and other incidentals. I saw what ended up being my new hardtail sitting on the floor and it spoke to me. I bought it without throwing a leg over it. It was a 3 minute impulse purchase. I hadn't owned nor even considered a hardtail for almost 10 years.
> 
> ...


that Kona looks awesome! I've been on the fence about getting carbon rims for my hardtail because of the harshness feel reputation. Now that I have been running i35 and i40mm rims with 2.6" tires and CC or Rimpact inserts, I think that the combination wouldn't be harsh. Did you notice this with your i30 rims and 2.5" tires?


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

Surprised that no one's mentioned it, but carbon framed hardtails are magnificent things to ride, as far as compliance and feel. I went from a Jamis Al frame bike to a Carbon frame KTM 29er, and the difference is astounding. It has a lovely, supple and zingy feel to it, you just don't get that harsh, higher frequency vibration transmitted back to you. Since then, I built up a 27.5 Vitus Sentier frame, and no matter what I do, it doesn't have that lovely, slightly springy, zingy, almost organic feel to it that the Carbon bike does. I'm running Carbon bars, Carbon seat post, tubeless tyres, tried different seats, stems, grips etc, and still can't get it to feel as nice as my plastic bike. Even running 40mm tyres at higher pressure on the carbon bike. Something to think about


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## chicodecali (Feb 19, 2016)

speedygz said:


> Surprised that no one's mentioned it, but carbon framed hardtails are magnificent things to ride, as far as compliance and feel. I went from a Jamis Al frame bike to a Carbon frame KTM 29er, and the difference is astounding. It has a lovely, supple and zingy feel to it, you just don't get that harsh, higher frequency vibration transmitted back to you. Since then, I built up a 27.5 Vitus Sentier frame, and no matter what I do, it doesn't have that lovely, slightly springy, zingy, almost organic feel to it that the Carbon bike does. I'm running Carbon bars, Carbon seat post, tubeless tyres, tried different seats, stems, grips etc, and still can't get it to feel as nice as my plastic bike. Even running 40mm tyres at higher pressure on the carbon bike. Something to think about


I love the ride on my Carbon Pivot LES as well but I have had 2 cracks in the frame. I would never buy a used carbon frame again.


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

chicodecali said:


> I love the ride on my Carbon Pivot LES as well but I have had 2 cracks in the frame. I would never buy a used carbon frame again.


Then buy new. Problem solved.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

speedygz said:


> Surprised that no one's mentioned it, but carbon framed hardtails are magnificent things to ride, as far as compliance and feel. I went from a Jamis Al frame bike to a Carbon frame KTM 29er, and the difference is astounding. It has a lovely, supple and zingy feel to it, you just don't get that harsh, higher frequency vibration transmitted back to you. Since then, I built up a 27.5 Vitus Sentier frame, and no matter what I do, it doesn't have that lovely, slightly springy, zingy, almost organic feel to it that the Carbon bike does. I'm running Carbon bars, Carbon seat post, tubeless tyres, tried different seats, stems, grips etc, and still can't get it to feel as nice as my plastic bike. Even running 40mm tyres at higher pressure on the carbon bike. Something to think about


Carbon seat post? I can't imagine building up a bike without a dropper post.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

hardmtnbiker said:


> that Kona looks awesome! I've been on the fence about getting carbon rims for my hardtail because of the harshness feel reputation. Now that I have been running i35 and i40mm rims with 2.6" tires and CC or Rimpact inserts, I think that the combination wouldn't be harsh. Did you notice this with your i30 rims and 2.5" tires?


At the risk of sounding like an ass, I haven't been on anything but carbon wheels since 2015. Probably explains why I got a "congratulations" on my LinkedIn account from the man himself, Dustin Adams, on my work anniversary earlier this year 

I have no idea what good quality alloy rims feel like in comparison. I will say though that my We Are Ones, in various varieties, all trump the Enves I started off with in 2015. Happy to have forever rid myself of those pretentious retina detachers.


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## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

Yeah. Carbon seat post. Ran a dropper for a year or so, was good, not earth shatteringly ground breaking or anything, haven't bothered since.

Edit -reminded me, 27.2 seat posts. They're comfy too


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

mtnbkrmike said:


> At the risk of sounding like an ass, I haven't been on anything but carbon wheels since 2015. Probably explains why I got a "congratulations" on my LinkedIn account from the man himself, Dustin Adams, on my work anniversary earlier this year
> 
> I have no idea what good quality alloy rims feel like in comparison. I will say though that my We Are Ones, in various varieties, all trump the Enves I started off with in 2015. Happy to have forever rid myself of those pretentious retina detachers.


The i35mm rim is the only size I think I would consider. I'm probably going to get Stans Barron CB7 rims


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## Skeptastic (Mar 31, 2012)

chazpat said:


> I'm excited just looking at it!


It looks incredible!!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

hardmtnbiker said:


> I definitely think tire pressure plays a major role but I also think an aluminum rim allows flex



I've heard this thrown around for years, but have never -- not once -- seen anything scientific to back it up.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

I own and ride a 2017 Nukeproof Scout 290

It's running a 140mm Yari fork.

It has 29" wheels on DT Swiss hubs (350's)

For me, the main criteria for making a hard tail capable are:
-good fork w/ adequate travel
-Right sized rubber

On my whip the 140mm Yari is perfect.

On an aggressive HT you'll ride the front more while you let the rear skip over the gnar.

Next is correct size rubber.

For me, 2.5" minimum tyres.

Larger rubber acts/aids as suspension.

I run a 29x2.5 Aggressor out back in drier months w/ a 29x2.6 Dissector up front.

For winter riding, width is a little less important as the trails are softer.

I run a 2.5 Vigilante and 2.5 HRII when things are damp.

On an aggressive HT a suitable length dropper is also key.

A rear end that doesn't compress can force the seat into your behind.

On my mule, I'm running a 180mm drop seatpost.

An AM HT is a lot of fun to ride.

Sent from my Asus Rog 3


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## frdfandc (Sep 5, 2007)

mikesee said:


> I've heard this thrown around for years, but have never -- not once -- seen anything scientific to back it up.


I've ridden primarily aluminum hardtails. Most trails the bike was ok. Felt a little beat up after each ride. Switched to a Reynolds 853 Jamis Dragon Race frame. So much more compliance overall. Longer rides I didn't feel beat up as much as compared to aluminum.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

mikesee said:


> I've heard this thrown around for years, but have never -- not once -- seen anything scientific to back it up.


I can’t say that I can reference any scientific proof but since I own both carbon and aluminum wheels now, I definitely noticed a less forgiving feel with the carbon hoops.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

hardmtnbiker said:


> I can’t say that I can reference any scientific proof but since I own both carbon and aluminum wheels now, I definitely noticed a less forgiving feel with the carbon hoops.


I think it depends on the specific rims. I just swapped my alloy RF ARC wheelset on my bike where I normally run WAO Agents. It really felt like the alloy wheels were less vertically compliant and more laterally compliant (worst of both worlds scenario).


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

frdfandc said:


> I've ridden primarily aluminum hardtails. Most trails the bike was ok. Felt a little beat up after each ride. Switched to a Reynolds 853 Jamis Dragon Race frame. So much more compliance overall. Longer rides I didn't feel beat up as much as compared to aluminum.


I'm pretty sure he's just talking about compliance of aluminum vs. carbon rims, not frame material.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

hardmtnbiker said:


> I can’t say that I can reference any scientific proof but since I own both carbon and aluminum wheels now, I definitely noticed a less forgiving feel with the carbon hoops.



I have a pile of anecdotal evidence, too -- and most of it contradicts yours.

But I don't believe my butt-dyno to be calibrated well enough to call what I feel "proof".

Editing this to add that there is value in perception. Didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I just don't like to see connections made between perception and proof without the science to back it up.


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## CucMan (Dec 18, 2018)

mikesee said:


> I have a pile of anecdotal evidence, too -- and most of it contradicts yours.
> 
> But I don't believe my butt-dyno to be calibrated well enough to call what I feel "proof".


He shoots...._he scores!_


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## frdfandc (Sep 5, 2007)

mikesee said:


> I have a pile of anecdotal evidence, too -- and most of it contradicts yours.
> 
> But I don't believe my butt-dyno to be calibrated well enough to call what I feel "proof".


I've read numerous wheel/rim reviews and those doing the riding have stated before that the aluminum rims have some flex to them, but the carbon hoops are much stiffer in comparison. YMMV. I've only ridden aluminum rims, so take that for what it's worth. I'll probably be going to carbon on my road bike, but on the MTB, sticking to aluminum.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

frdfandc said:


> I've read numerous wheel/rim reviews and those doing the riding have stated before that the aluminum rims have some flex to them, but the carbon hoops are much stiffer in comparison. YMMV. I've only ridden aluminum rims, so take that for what it's worth. I'll probably be going to carbon on my road bike, but on the MTB, sticking to aluminum.


It's not a single axis of less or more stiff.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I think it depends more on the specific rim. There may be some more bias towards making CF rims stiffer.


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## frdfandc (Sep 5, 2007)

jeremy3220 said:


> It's not a single axis of less or more stiff.


Not a single axis, but there is up and down compression and side to side play. Carbon wheels, from what I've read, have less up/down compression and less side to side flex under load or deflection.

With aluminum wheels, I can make my rear tire hit the chain stays under hard power like a standing climb or sprint. Reviews read have stated that carbon hoops will deflect less.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

frdfandc said:


> I've read numerous wheel/rim reviews and those doing the riding have stated before that the aluminum rims have some flex to them, but the carbon hoops are much stiffer in comparison.



I've read this too and it doesn't match my experience. 

I feel much less buzz transmitted through carbon rims -- they give a more muted trail feel. Which isn't the same as "flex".


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## frdfandc (Sep 5, 2007)

mikesee said:


> I've read this too and it doesn't match my experience.
> 
> I feel much less buzz transmitted through carbon rims -- they give a more muted trail feel. Which isn't the same as "flex".


I guess it really depends on the rim/wheel build up.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

frdfandc said:


> Not a single axis, but there is up and down compression and side to side play. Carbon wheels, from what I've read, have less up/down compression and less side to side flex under load or deflection.
> 
> With aluminum wheels, I can make my rear tire hit the chain stays under hard power like a standing climb or sprint. Reviews read have stated that carbon hoops will deflect less.


Depends on the rim. The newer carbon rims with the shallower profile seem pretty vertically compliant.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

WRT Carbon bar comfort. I was riding carbon 740 bars (ancient easton) and really wanted something wider. Got used carbon 780, enve minar bars, too stiff hurt my hands. Sold and got some race face sixc, omg, even stiffer. Finally used pair of enve m6 - terrific. My original narrower bars were comfy so I knew carbon could work which is why I kept trying. Super super happy with the enve m6 bars at 780 (all are 31.8mm clamp diameter.)


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

As someone who has had wrist and hand numbness and other issues and only rides HTs, I have kind of a set formula that works on almost every bike. Bars and stem, stick with 31.8 clamp size. I use Spank Oozy Vibrocore bars, ESI extra chunky grips. Compliant seat post (if you're not using a dropper) and a flexible shell saddle. In my case I also ride compliant Ti and steel frames and that helps tons too. At least a 2.4 tire, bigger if you can, and of course lower pressures. I don't do the carbon thing so can't help there, currently using Spank Oozy 350 rims also. All this adds up to the point that when I'm hitting decent chop on my Ti HT, it almost feels like a short travel setup. The rear feels almost as good as the Pike on the front.


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

vikb said:


> I'd rather ride a frame that's too flexy than one that's too stiff.


Fully agree. I will say that I've had a frame that flexed enough to cause a mechanical problem. The rear end was compliant to the point that it caused misalignment in the thru axle and caused momentary binding in the hub bearings, which would then slightly unscrew the thru axle. Repeated enough times, eventually it would unscrew enough to cause play in the axle. The lever stayed tight, but I'd have to loosen the lever, re-screw in the axle all the way and repeat. 

Turned out this was due to the hot-garbage Formula hubs on the bike at the time, which really had no lower race support. Once I installed new wheels with DT350s and their proper bearing support, the problem went away and I could enjoy the compliance problem-free. Weirdest problem in the world though, never seen it before or since.


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## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I am on the carbon doesn't really seem any stiffer than aluminum train. Especially with a trail bike profile rim. On my steel gravel bike I put on 50mm deep carbon rims -> they are a little stiffer than the DT swiss rims I had on. But, it's not a ton different. This is with 44mm tires.

On my steel hardtails I have carbon rims (Light bicycle and Renolds). I notice no difference between my aluminum rims (i9 305s). What makes a difference for me is an insert (using Tubolight and Tannus armor tubeless) and tires that I can run around 20-23 psi.


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## Slowandfat (Jan 4, 2020)

Lone Rager said:


> + tires at low pressure.


This.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

kyle204 said:


> I'm currently in the market for a new bike as I detailed in a post earlier in the week. I've recently started riding more aggressive trails and my current bike isn't really setup for them. I currently have an aluminum Niner EMD 9 with 100mm travel, aluminum bar, 2.35 front tire and 2.25 rear tire on 23 inner diameter rims. I was debating between getting a more aggressive hardtail or a full suspension.
> 
> _Keep your current bike for now, and put the widest tire possible in the back. Your bike is setup similar to my first carbon hardtail: tapered 15x100mm in front, older QR 10x135mm in the rear. Which means you probably can't put on more than a 2.4 or 2.5 tire in back. Which means...if you can only do a 2.4, try a Maxxis DHRII or Kenda Hellkat, something heavy-duty to absorb those bumps with no other rear suspension besides the tire itself. If you can squeeze in a 2.5, and you may be able to with 2x instead of 3x, then you can try a Maxxis Assegai. Most riders put that on the front, but on a hardtail, I've found that the rear tire is far more important to fuss about for getting things right. Just make sure to pump it up a lot, at least 24-26 psi because it's a complete slug on flat sections of trail if deflated. Speaking of which, are your rims tubeless ready. On the front, it's not a huge deal, besides an extra 0.5 lbs of tube. In the back, it is a big deal._
> 
> ...


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## socal_jack (Dec 30, 2008)

Stay in the air


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

socal_jack said:


> Stay in the air


It's true.


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## RagleyMarley (Nov 18, 2021)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I went down this path 3 years ago.
> 
> It started with a trip to my LBS to pick up some lube, grips and other incidentals. I saw what ended up being my new hardtail sitting on the floor and it spoke to me. I bought it without throwing a leg over it. It was a 3 minute impulse purchase. I hadn't owned nor even considered a hardtail for almost 10 years.
> 
> ...


Dude! Did you make this truck bed bike stand?! Looks like a perfect DIY solution! Please share how you made it. I tried to message you directly about this and did not know how.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

RagleyMarley said:


> Dude! Did you make this truck bed bike stand?! Looks like a perfect DIY solution! Please share how you made it. I tried to message you directly about this and did not know how.


There are online instructions. Google PVC truck bike racks. Or something like that. I bought this in 2015 off a dude on Kijiji. I paid less than what it would have cost me in materials.

I use it for up to 4 bikes, or two fat bikes. I have got to some pretty remote areas using it. Zero damage to my truck or the bikes. I think I have blasted up Moose Mountain fire road 150 times. Maybe more.

I have a $750 rack in my garage as well as a tailgate mat. Both have been collecting dust since 2015. That rack has not left the back of my truck for 7 years. And it gets regular weekly use year round.


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## RagleyMarley (Nov 18, 2021)

mtnbkrmike said:


> There are online instructions. Google PVC truck bike racks. Or something like that. I bought this in 2015 off a dude on Kijiji. I paid less than what it would have cost me in materials.
> 
> I use it for up to 4 bikes, or two fat bikes. I have got to some pretty remote areas using it. Zero damage to my truck or the bikes. I think I have blasted up Moose Mountain fire road 150 times. Maybe more.
> 
> I have a $750 rack in my garage as well as a tailgate mat. Both have been collecting dust since 2015. That rack has not left the back of my truck for 7 years. And it gets regular weekly use year round.


Awesome! I will look it up. Thanks!


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