# Rear tiller worked wonders!



## smeurett (Jul 21, 2007)

We've been trail building here in WI Central WI (Levis Mound Trail; 2001leviscover.html) for 25+ years and with the sometimes steep mounds and hillsides, bench cutting almost everything is a fact of life. The soil is very sandy, depending on which side of the mounds you're building-south sides, of course tend to be thin soil, north sides are thicker and heavier and lot's of roots. All forested. We've dreamt about a mechanical solution (dingo etc) but are pretty unsure of how it would handle the steep side slopes and tons of oak roots. I'm guessing it would stop it in it's tracks...so to speak.

Last week I decided to try a nice rear tine rototiller to maybe get the soil/sod broken up and follow with hand tools. We have tons of what we call "mound cranberries" which send out a billion small roots-hard work to hand cut. The Honda Tiller worked just great!!! What a surprise.....I could make a shallow pass, then go back and forth in a section depending on how steep it was, to cut a proper depth. On really steep stuff, I could "control slide" the drive wheels of the tiller at a 45 degree angle to the hill, which caused the outside tiller blades to cut deeper. Some sections required 5 or more passes, but it was much faster than hand bench cutting. The other workers followed behind and pulled off the loose fluffy soil and shaped the outslope properly.

The new trail we're building (Corkscrew) is fairly long and is cut from top to bottom and follows the contours (as it climbs) of the mound until it reaches the top. I pushed the tillers limits a bit at the top on too steep of a section and almost rolled the unit, but the lesson was learned. Overall, I was really impressed with the quality of trail, even on the flats, that the tiller could produce. Keeping it in first gear was important as you could feel larger roots and rocks just as the blades would contact them, allowing one to lift the rear a little and climb over them.

For our soil type, we just found another tool for trail building-at $68.00 a day, it was well worth it.
s.


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## JDM (May 2, 2008)

Interesting. I've considered using a 'tiller, but wondered if it was crazy. I'm in New Hampshire and our soil can get pretty rock here, so it might not work as well.

Do you have any pictures of the tiller in action?


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## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

The guys at Kingdom Trails used a rescue saw to cut through the thick root mats on one of the trails they were building. Hopefully they had somebody young and flexible to do the dirty work though.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

*A good concept...*

My late father tried such an approach quite a few years ago; he modified a rear tine tiller so it became a front tine walk-behind. His focus was building single track for moto's on fairly steep hillsides in central California. Too steep for a machine to traverse without a bench.

He tried quite a few arrangements to the cutting tines and rotation; the result were the same---if the soil was fairly "consistent" (no large rocks or roots) it worked fairly well. On encountering rocks or roots the machine could become dangerously unwieldy---this was a 7hp machine and could launch itself like an angry bull when the tines grabbed onto something.

He eventually gave up and went back to "pick and shovel"---he was approaching 70 at this time and said he'd leave further development to the "young guys". I wish I had some photos or videos of the machine in action but I don't.

I think the main problem was the weight to power ratio, my father had kept the weight down to keep it maneuverable (probably around 200#) and this worked against him when the machine was digging. Had it weighed 4X that amount and had more wheels (or tracks even better) it might have been viable.

Like putting a cultivator on the front of a Toro Dingo or equivalent.


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## Vibrato (Apr 4, 2007)

The Peoria MTBers started using the small yard boss tillers a few years ago and after seeing them in action, we (FORC- Friends of Off Road Cycling) bought 3 of them, one with the rubber concrete cleaning paddles. We use the tillers to do the main bench and backslope, the rubber paddles to distribute the dirt down hill, and then finish work with Rogue hoes and SHARPENED Flat shovels.

While it works better than anything we've tried yet, we're still on the lookout for the perfect (affordable) bench cut machine. Any of you cats find anything that cuts like butta- let everyone know!!


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## Skookum (Jan 17, 2005)

Little off the conversation, but we used a plate compacter a little bit. Prior to that there was a discussion with another local builder about how they used them to pack dirt on berms etc. They would hook it up with ropes and have guys swing it for control and keep it from tipping on the inclines. 

Just thought that this might help a builder if they are running one of these on a steep incline and have a couple guys off a rope to help stabilize, might prevent disaster.


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## JDM (May 2, 2008)

We've used a plate compactor with good results. We haven't tried it on steep terrain though.

It seems like 'tillers are getting mixed reviews here, but I'm tempted to give it a shot. I wonder if my sister wants donate her machine to the cause... (she's an avid biker too)


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## Vibrato (Apr 4, 2007)

This thread got me thinking about a bench we've got coming up- 3/4 of a mile on 30 to 70% slope. I mean, trail bosses and rogue hoes have made benches easier and faster, but this is still a lot of backbreaking work so I'd REALLY like to find a way to go more mechanized without making the bench 6 ft wide.

Has anyone tried a small stump grinder? You'd still want to do hand work around large trees and not tear up ALL the roots along the way, but they make VERY small self propelled stump grinders that have 6 way grinding wheels on them. I guess my theory would be that a few doods could take turns running it into the ground (literally) to make the bench and broadcast, and hand forming the backslope. 

Any thoughts? (I hope this isn't a thead hi-jack. If so- flame me and I'll start a new one!)


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## smeurett (Jul 21, 2007)

Not at all Vibrato- I've thought of modified snowblower/front tiller/auger.....just need machinists skills to make something. The rear tiller worked very well and saved TONs of back breaking digging. Very impressed and the only way we'll make singletrack from now on.


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## prooperator (Jan 31, 2007)

*A compact min-x will...*



Vibrato said:


> This thread got me thinking about a bench we've got coming up- 3/4 of a mile on 30 to 70% slope. I mean, trail bosses and rogue hoes have made benches easier and faster, but this is still a lot of backbreaking work so I'd REALLY like to find a way to go more mechanized without making the bench 6 ft wide.
> 
> Has anyone tried a small stump grinder? You'd still want to do hand work around large trees and not tear up ALL the roots along the way, but they make VERY small self propelled stump grinders that have 6 way grinding wheels on them. I guess my theory would be that a few doods could take turns running it into the ground (literally) to make the bench and broadcast, and hand forming the backslope.
> 
> Any thoughts? (I hope this isn't a thead hi-jack. If so- flame me and I'll start a new one!)


do the trick on that side slop or steeper. It will make the trail around 4' wide then you can narrow it up behind you with 360 degree movement. i ve done it on many trails...by far the fastest way to cut trail besides a sweco and not much hand labor left to do.


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## epic (Apr 16, 2005)

Picturing these whirling, cutting and probably very top-heavy machines on a steep side-slope just seems like a disaster in the making to me.

If I was looking at a 70% slope, I'd be thinking mini-ex and the tread wouldn't have to be 6' wide, but if that was my only "problem", I think it beats a lot of others I could conjure up.


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## Vibrato (Apr 4, 2007)

prooperator said:


> i ve done it on many trails...by far the fastest way to cut trail besides a sweco and not much hand labor left to do.


Now I'm salivating likes Pavlovs dog at a bell ringing contest!! FOR THE LOVE OF SWEET FLOWY GOODNESS- We need pictures and Video, man!! Don't tease us like this!

How'd the blades hold up running it through the dirt?

Also- our local rental place has one that is on tracks that is only about 30 inches wide. It looks like a 6 way controller, but I'm not sure if it will move (slide) left to right. I am dieing to try it out after hearing you've done it!


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## prooperator (Jan 31, 2007)

*Here's some pics of me trailbuilding*



Vibrato said:


> Now I'm salivating likes Pavlovs dog at a bell ringing contest!! FOR THE LOVE OF SWEET FLOWY GOODNESS- We need pictures and Video, man!! Don't tease us like this!
> 
> How'd the blades hold up running it through the dirt?
> 
> Also- our local rental place has one that is on tracks that is only about 30 inches wide. It looks like a 6 way controller, but I'm not sure if it will move (slide) left to right. I am dieing to try it out after hearing you've done it!


Cutting in some switchbacks on a new trail project.


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## Vibrato (Apr 4, 2007)

I'm envisioning something like this. (Not an endorsement, just wanted a picture)

Bandit Industries, Inc.

Its 36 inches wide when retracted, and it doesn't matter how big of a hill slope you run it on because you will be creating the bench cut in front of it as you go, so the machine will be sitting on the bench cut when being operated. Same cautions as operating any heavy machine would apply, naturally.

If this worked, the cutting wheel teeth could be welded up as custom pieces and angled slightly to help push debri to one side. With the 5 ft swing, I think the wheel itself could be used to dig through both the backslope and the tread, and used to push the spoils to the downslope. (Probably wouldn't "broadcast" all that well, though.)

I might be envisioning something that is unrealistic, but I can't seem to get it out of my head. Sure would like to figure out a way to give it a trial run!!


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## prooperator (Jan 31, 2007)

Vibrato said:


> I'm envisioning something like this. (Not an endorsement, just wanted a picture)
> 
> Bandit Industries, Inc.
> 
> ...


That would be very slow and cumbersome to me. I think a mini-x on rental is by far the most productive if you have experience on equipment. If you do not have any experience, the dw sk650 if your next best option for machine cut trail. You walk behind the sk650.


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## TrailYoda (Feb 23, 2009)

prooperator said:


> That would be very slow and cumbersome to me. I think a mini-x on rental is by far the most productive if you have experience on equipment. If you do not have any experience, the dw sk650 if your next best option for machine cut trail. You walk behind the sk650.


 The Ditch Witch SK650 is the stand-on diesel dozer which has a lot more torque and is a great piece of equipment. Unfortunately our local 
DW dealer suffered during the recession and closed. Not nearly as powerful as a DW dozer or a Mini-x but very good on steep slopes with lots of roots is a Dingo with a trenching attachment. The trenchers are designed like a chainsaw on steriods to cut in gas and water piperlines. They blast through roots and most rocky soil pretty effectively Similar to the tiller approach they do all the digging and you just have crew with Mcleods or Rogue hoe finish the bench. I think they would work in Wisc. but I think NH is just a little to rock infested for a trencher (really big rocks causes it to throw the trenching chain which is a pain to remount).


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