# Outbound Lighting Focal Series ---- Discussion ----



## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

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*PLEASE NOTE A LOT OF THIS INFORMATION IS OUTDATED! I'VE LEFT HERE TO SHOW WHERE WE STARTED FROM. CHECK OUT OUR WEBSITE FOR THE LATEST INFORMATION.*

Hey guys, so I know you guys LOVE technical details, so I thought I'd put together a sort of brief of some stuff I've been working on. I hinted at this in my introduction thread (HERE). Feel free to ask me any questions!

*What is Outbound Lighting?*
This is the first foray into the bike lighting market, taking the latest in automotive LED technology, sources, materials, and design methods to produce one of the best all-around bike lights, period. This is not a claim that is being made as marketing fluff. I personally designed these lights using my many years of experience as an automotive optical/illumination design engineer. I design automotive lighting for a living and was frustrated with the lack of a good trail light that could be REALLY good, knowing how automotive lights are designed. Big lumens put into tiny lenses, nothing but spot and flood optics, poor thermal transfer, the list goes on and on of the typical bike light. There are several VERY good options available in Europe from companies such as B&M and Supernova, but those are focused on the road and for E-Bikes. Therefore I set out to develop my own bike light using what I know, and it has morphed into Outbound Lighting.

*What is Focal Series?*
This is the first product from Outbound. Using OSRAM Black Flat automotive grade chips, a downward firing multi-segmented reflector, automotive grade optically clear silicone lens and a magnesium die cast body to wrap everything into a highly efficient, well-engineered, robust bike light that I hope will redefine what you come to expect from a bike light for the trail.















*Optical Design (Trail & Road)*
Design of this bike light came after using several higher end lights, as well as dozens of cheaper lights from Amazon and other retailers. The common theme for almost every trail oriented light was a spot beam pattern, and a few that had an elliptical or a rectangular beam pattern. This is a great compromise in theory, and it gets the job done. However in knowing how automotive lights are designed to give the wide field of view, as well as even illumination on the ground, along with an intense main beam, I knew there was a lot of untapped potential for the trail.

The design of the optics came from hundreds of hours in OPTIS simulating almost every combination I could think of, as well as many different LED sources. In the end settled on a multi-segmented reflector that creates an even, wide and smooth intense beam pattern across the field of view of the rider, as well as creating a "light carpet" on the trail that allows for even illumination from the bike tire all the way out to your main focal point on the trail. This lets you attack both the high speed and the tight and twisty sections of a trail without having to readjust your eyes, or mount up multiple lights. What you end up with is a rather unique looking beam pattern that may look somewhat odd when lit up close against a wall, but mount it onto your bike and dive into the trails deep at night, and it will redefine what you will expect from a light. The road series optical beam pattern is similar to the trail in terms of width and the "light carpet", however it has a cutoff, as well as a more focused hotspot (almost triple the candela) that allows to see further down the road whether bombing a steep downhill at 50+mph, or just hoping to pick up that odd critter or pothole that has somehow wandered into your path!















This is a shot of the trail ground illumination plot. Think of this as a birds eye view looking down, and seeing the light intensity directly on the pavement, or the trail. The green is representing 60 lux of illumination, which is more than enough that the human eye perceives it as "very bright" when in darkness. Notice how this green is extremely even from the center point of the bike, all the way out to 70', and then falls off more from there. So as you can imagine, this is a light that is going to not only let you see further down the trail nicely, but also what's on the trail in front of you without having to aim your light down, sacrificing the light you use to see straight on! As well as the very wide width that it entails.









If interested, I can dive into a lot more technical detail of exactly how this beam pattern was designed, the optics, the math behind it, and more. These are details that most companies would call proprietary, or "competitive secrets", but in reality it is most likely because they picked out some optics from a catalog, or hired an optical company to do the work for them and cannot explain it like we can. Since we are designing every part, every optic, and every electrical circuit here in St. Louis, MO, we are happy to share details and specifications as questions arise.

*Thermal Design*
One item that comes up often in this forum, that I do like seeing, is that thermal is discussed! As many of you know, thermal control is very important for not only LED life, but also the optical output, color temperature and overall reliability. This is also why I had opted for a downward firing reflector as opposed to a typical TIR or reflector bowl, since it would allow for more a more optimal thermal pathway from the LED chip to the incoming airflow.

The main LED board (copper core board) is separate from the control board, and it is monitored using a thermistor that is located near the chip. We don't expect that when the light is in use that it will reach a thermal step-down, but of course need to plan for the worst if we want to have a reliable product. Many thermal simulations were run to decide on the final design. Early prototype shots that are shown later on are using an older design that has since been optimized further after receiving the machined prototypes. The beam pattern has even been designed such that it forces the user to partially aim the light "down" just slightly, so that incoming air is hitting the back of the LED heat sink directly. Combine this design decision, with large die cut thermal interface material (not just globs of paste) that are sandwiched together by the magnesium die casting, and you end up with a very well designed, thermally optimized heat sink that is not only thermally efficient, but also very lightweight due to the magnesium material choice.









When using the included large thick silicone strap for mounting on the handlebar, you will notice that the mount itself has an integrated air scoop that helps force more cooling air into areas of the heat sink that otherwise would be hard for air to reach in a conventional manner. Again this scoop was thermally optimized for overall height, fins, and more to help achieve the final design.

*Electrical Design*
This is the one portion of the design that I outsourced to an extremely experienced freelance electrical engineer in Kansas City who mostly designed high power driver circuits for RC cars and other battery operated devices. So developing an efficient driver was no issue for him! Initial prototype testing is showing 93-95% efficiency from the battery, through the wires, through the connectors, into the board, through the driver, and to the chip. We are using integrated software to control the LED, monitor the temperature, adjust brightness of the status lights, as well as an "adaptive" mode that will use some human physiology to help extend your battery life while maintaining that same perceived brightness.

Another key point in the electrical design includes using an automotive grade LED. Right now working around an OSRAM Black Flat, however we may also opt for a LUXEON Altilon SMD. Both are the same chips that you find in every single OEM LED headlight on the road. You will never find a CREE LED being used as an optical source for headlighting except for aftermarket products. There is a reason for that. Not only thermal stability, but also the extremely small emitter size allows for extremely high luminance, which helps with the optical design, and helps keep optics smaller. More on this topic goes hand in hand with optical design, so I'll save the nitty gritty details for later!
Designing for reliability was a set goal from the start. I had several lights fail on me when I was benchmarking many cheap lights. Some were due to thermal overload, and some were due to fatigue on the wire connections since they were poorly soldered down. This is why we opted to not have ANY soldered wire joints in the design. Power comes in and is put into an automotive grade wire-to-board connector, then transferred to the control board through another thick board connector. All components are solid state and chosen for reliability, not cost.

*Robust & Lightweight Design*
Of course when designing a light for the trails, robust and lightweight design is absolutely needed. Thin wall magnesium die casting allows for a very lightweight head given the size, as well as still being strong enough to withstand a hit or a drop from the bike as the main corners of impact were thickened as needed. Optical grade silicone is used for the lens. This is a rather new material that is making its way into some automotive headlights (namely Mercedes Benz Matrix LED lights), it is clearer than PC or PMMA, while offering superior scratch resistance, as well as being able to mold in a gasket that helps make the entire light waterproof. Part consolidation helps reduce points of failure. The incoming power wire is thick, and includes an overmolded grommet that provides both strain relief, as well as waterproofing the light.

Mounting of the light comes from a very thick silicone strap that uses two types of silicone. The main strap itself is a tough and rugged silicone as well as stretchy enough to pull tight on the bar. The bar "pad" that sits on the mount itself is a softer silicone that acts as a grip on the bar. The small ridges and soft material means that the strap holds onto the bar tightly, without marring those expensive carbon bars! I've already had several hard crashes on my own personal bike that resulted in losing several cheaper lights I bought, but my own strap design stayed absolutely solid!

GoPro mount adapter will be included on every light head. More future mounting options will be available as more people give me some ideas on how they want to have their lamps mounted! So ideas are always welcome!

*Specifications (NOT final) *
Lumens: 1200-1500 range (final lumen numbers to depend on chip selected and power settings)
Runtime: 3.5 hours on HIGH at minimum
Battery Pack: 4-cell lithium ion, LG Cells, 7.4V at 5200 mAh
Weight: 315g (approximate), light head: 95g
Dimensions: 62mm x 48mm x 56mm
Price: TBD
*Light head WILL be purchasable separately. WILL use a common battery connector (DC5521)*

*Current State (September 4[SUP]th[/SUP], 2017)*
Currently we have paid for the tooling to get these parts started after getting prototypes that worked out well. We will have a rough self-contained alpha prototype that I'll be able to take onto the trails hopefully by the end of this week. Currently the prototype shots shown are showing an earlier build, as well as slightly different beam pattern design. It is very hard (and very expensive) to prototype reflectors, so the beam pattern is not perfect.















We are shooting for a release date on November 5[SUP]th[/SUP] (daylights savings day!) and will be working with local bike groups and events to get some more people interested in night riding. As many of you know, it's just an absolute thrill to hit a trail hard at night. Feels like a completely different world! I honestly hope these lights will help bring more people into the night riding community, and help extend their riding seasons even longer. I am extremely passionate about lighting, and about biking, and so this isn't just imported product that's being rebranded as my own, this is a light that is being developed from the ground up to hit the goals I feel that have been missing from bike lighting.

I strongly welcome any questions, opinions, and more! I want this to be the best light, period!


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## varider (Nov 29, 2012)

Well, your offering looks very interesting. I didn't have a chance to read it all, but will come back later. 

I think your best way of promoting your light would be to get in touch with Francois of the mtbr management team and send him a light for evaluation. Every year starting in the fall he puts together a massive night light review that's better than anything the magazines do. He will do an unbiased review of your light and give it a fair judgement. Last year he gave his award for best light to a company that no one here had ever heard of.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Wow! This sounds fantastic, but I'm scared to hear the price. Would love to see some trail beamshots!

-Garry


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## Sirius9 (Apr 24, 2013)

Oh, finally some interesting news, I really like how this light looks


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

garrybunk said:


> Wow! This sounds fantastic, but I'm scared to hear the price. Would love to see some trail beamshots!
> 
> -Garry


Right now our plan is potentially around the $225 price point with the battery pack included, and $135 with the light head separately. Though we haven't nailed down the pricing on the OSRAM or the Lumileds chips, so that might fluctuate a little bit. This is NOT going to be a $400-500+ light, that would be just be asinine, and I feel turn a lot of people away from the joy of night riding. I designed this light to be easy to assemble (will be assembled in the USA) and with as few of components as possible to keep the price low.

Will there potentially be some high dollar "halo" light that is just a ton of lumens to get attention at bike shows or events? Probably.  Because those are just fun engineering exercises, that do in fact cost a lot of money to make.

As for beam shots. This is the only one I have right now that I took several weeks ago. This is at around 400-500 lumens, in a pitch black warehouse as I had to power the LED directly from a power supply. So not exactly representative of a trail per say, but can get an idea of the even illumination and wide FOV it will provide. This doesn't have the silicone lens in place that will provide some more width in the corners as well. As I mentioned, hopefully will have a unit that I can take on my local trail to get some beam shots, and hopefully some video. I've picked up a nicer DSLR that I just need to figure out how to attach to my bike, or myself so that we can get a much more true sense of the light pattern rather than the typical overblown or underexposed GoPro video.









*EDIT* I want to note that the button will NOT be backlit, there was no control board in place when I took that picture, so that button is just getting illuminated from some stray light. The status lights will be illuminated, but will be programmed to be very dim when in use, brightening when there is a status change, or the battery levels drop to alert the user. Otherwise it will be a very low-lit unit so that your eyes are not picking up a bright foreground object.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

varider said:


> Well, your offering looks very interesting. I didn't have a chance to read it all, but will come back later.
> 
> I think your best way of promoting your light would be to get in touch with Francois of the mtbr management team and send him a light for evaluation. Every year starting in the fall he puts together a massive night light review that's better than anything the magazines do. He will do an unbiased review of your light and give it a fair judgement. Last year he gave his award for best light to a company that no one here had ever heard of.


I agree. I had reached out to the MTBR staff a month ago or so explaining what I am doing, and wondering what the deadline was to get into the shootout, but I have not heard anything back yet.

I do slightly disagree with some of the testing merits (namely the lux testing) but it's great to have all the lights lined up at once. I'd LOVE to see MTBR adopt the same testing strategy that Action LED Lights uses (https://www.action-led-lights.com/pages/bike-light-beam-patterns) as I think that is a fantastic measure of beam performance and light. As many of you know, big lumens doesn't always mean big performance, and the MTBR test seems to lean more on the lumen number than a legitimate lux number, as well as very hard to get a true sense of the actual beam pattern in pictures. But they at least do go and ride to get an idea of what performs best in the real world and don't just pick the biggest lumen number, so that is why I am trying to find out what I need to do to get my lamp in there.

Action LED does a great job objectively measuring the beam performance of many lights. Only improvement I'd love to see is to have all the measurements normalized in terms of lux output, so easier to jump between graphs and compare different lights.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

First, welcome to MTBR lighting and night riding forums. Your lamp design ideas looks quite interesting. I like the look ( as it does seem to be somewhat the same form factor as some German Euro-lights ) but the most important thing when it comes to this kind of lamp is the actual beam pattern it produces. 

Over the last year I've been really interested in lamps that provide a "upper cut-off beam pattern" primarily for road use. Of course as you already know designing a lamp that can produced the desired effect is not an easy thing to do ...BUT...more people are starting to get it right and I find that a most pleasant prospect. 

In keeping with the idea of creating a new and innovating product designed primarily to mimic a beam pattern from a car I personally have a number of priorities when considering using such products. First, I like the beam pattern transition from near to far to be as smooth as possible with as little dead space, spots or artifacts in the beam pattern as possible.( less light up close but more at distance ). It also needs to be fairly wide so we can spot those deer that graze on the side of the road way before we get to them. Last but not least, brightness is an issue but so is beam tint. Real important not to use an LED array that might be too bluish. Bright white ( for road use ) works really well for road use, NW for MTB'ing. Lastly, the optical array needs to supply a defined cut-off. Personally I find if this cut-off is nice and sharp it helps the user aim the light properly. Then again nothing wrong with a smoother transition at the upper cut-off as long as the user can still figure a way to aim the lamp properly. 

I look forward to seeing the reviews on your lamp when you get it finished. You have some intriguing ideas. Just keep in mind you have some good competition but if you create a lamp that can cover the needs of mountain bikers and road users...that indeed will be some feat if you can pull it off. Just keep in mind the needs of MTB'ers are not the same as road users. What I tend to like on a road bike is not the same as what I like on a MTB. On a mountain bike you almost have to have two lamps because at times the bike goes in one direction while you need to look and see in another. A single bar lamp is simply not going to be the best option when mountain biking. That is why almost all MTB'ers use a bar and helmet lamp. 

Road use is completely different but only because at most times the needs and environment of the cyclist on the road is different. As you already know, a lamp using a single optic or mirror array can produce the desired beam pattern for road use. However, as nice as that beam pattern may be it may not be able to produce the needed "high beam" effect that cars get when they hit their high beams to see farther into the distance. Road cyclists need this feature too. So far I've not seen anyone pull this off just using a single optic array and the ones who are using two optics ( built into one lamp ) have not been real successful ( IMO ). 

At the moment I use both a lamp designed for road ( cut-off beam pattern ) and a separate MTB type lamp on my road bike to provide the occasional needed high beam function. I rarely need to use the high beams but when I do it comes in REAL handy. Now if your lamp can remove the need for an extra lamp that would indeed be something to see. 

One last parting comment; If your lamp can do what you say it can it would be really important if that lamp included some type of remote feature. Lamps that feature remote control are really popular and give the user many more mounting options as well as making sudden light-mode changes much more easier and safer to accomplish.

Anyway...keep up the good work. I like new ideas


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cat-man-do said:


> In keeping with the idea of creating a new and innovating product designed primarily to mimic a beam pattern from a car I personally have a number of priorities when considering using such products. First, I like the beam pattern transition from near to far to be as smooth as possible with as little dead space, spots or artifacts in the beam pattern as possible.( less light up close but more at distance ). It also needs to be fairly wide so we can spot those deer that graze on the side of the road way before we get to them. Last but not least, brightness is an issue but so is beam tint. Real important not to use an LED array that might be too bluish. Bright white ( for road use ) works really well for road use, NW for MTB'ing. Lastly, the optical array needs to supply a defined cut-off. Personally I find if this cut-off is nice and sharp it helps the user aim the light properly. Then again nothing wrong with a smoother transition at the upper cut-off as long as the user can still figure a way to aim the lamp properly.


Sounds like you have my optic defined just right.  The width pushes -40 to +40 of intentional designed light. Typical higher end lights like the NiteRider have a maximum beam width of around -30 to +30. The smooth blend from near to far is absolutely spot on. It's easy to figure out the transition amount with a little math and some spreadsheet work.

Candela = Lux × (meters)^2

Do the work to find out the distance from the lamp mounting height to the ground plane, then back track the consistent lux you want to maintain (in this case, I chose 60 lux) and what you get is basically a logarithmic gain in candela (light intensity) that helps make that even transition from directly in front of you, where you don't need that much light to make 60 lux on the ground, to 20-30-40 meters out where you need a LOT more light intensity to illuminate the ground at a consistent 60 lux. This is why the beam patterns I designed have a fairly rapid falloff when you are just looking at a color plot, or shining against a wall. However light that up on a pathway, a trail, or a roadway, and it all clicks. :eekster:









Agree on the color temperature. Most modern automotive LED's are using a more natural white color because of that reason, and because they have to conform to SAE standards for color temperature. You tend to find the blueish tints being used in cheaper lights, or lights with poor thermal capacity that causes a color shift.



> I look forward to seeing the reviews on your lamp when you get it finished. You have some intriguing ideas. Just keep in mind you have some good competition but if you create a lamp that can cover the needs of mountain bikers and road users...that indeed will be some feat if you can pull it off. Just keep in mind the needs of MTB'ers are not the same as road users. What I tend to like on a road bike is not the same as what I like on a MTB. On a mountain bike you almost have to have two lamps because at times the bike goes in one direction while you need to look and see in another. A single bar lamp is simply not going to be the best option when mountain biking. That is why almost all MTB'ers use a bar and helmet lamp.


I do hope that I didn't lead people on thinking that the road and the MTB optic are in the same lamp. They are separate units that are using two different optical reflectors. This is why I am intending on offering both units for purchase on their own at a much lower price without the battery pack in case users want to have a MTB specific light for their trail bike, and a road specific light for their dedicated road bike. I know that some users might use the same bike for both, but that might be a future product where we can make both work (and I know we can).

I fully look forward to hearing the opinions of this lighting community once we have a beta prototype and start delivering the first production units. Any improvements will be quickly implemented if the light is a success, part of the positive of having it all designed here, including the software, electrical, mechanical, and optical design work.

As for the bar mount vs helmet mount. I personally do not like helmet mount lights when I am doing my own trail riding, but I come from a rally racing background where sliding the car sideways through a fast corner with the light pods on the hood is natural to me. So I've always prioritized a wide even beam pattern over a peaky spot or floody flood type lamp. I chose the beam angles from my own personal trail riding experience that ranges from fast flowing wide open fields to some real narrow tricky rock gardens. It's of my personal opinion that the consensus of needing a helmet and a bar light is born from dealing with primitive optics for years and years. I know I'm personally building this light so that I will never even have to think about using a helmet light. BUT I am not going to discount developing my own helmet light as I've got some ideas on ways to improve those. 



> Road use is completely different but only because at most times the needs and environment of the cyclist on the road is different. As you already know, a lamp using a single optic or mirror array can produce the desired beam pattern for road use. However, as nice as that beam pattern may be it may not be able to produce the needed "high beam" effect that cars get when they hit their high beams to see farther into the distance. Road cyclists need this feature too. So far I've not seen anyone pull this off just using a single optic array and the ones who are using two optics ( built into one lamp ) have not been real successful ( IMO ).
> 
> At the moment I use both a lamp designed for road ( cut-off beam pattern ) and a separate MTB type lamp on my road bike to provide the occasional needed high beam function. I rarely need to use the high beams but when I do it comes in REAL handy. Now if your lamp can remove the need for an extra lamp that would indeed be something to see.


High beam is indeed a tricky thing to do. I have ideas for a future light for road use that can do this, but this current lamp will be essentially a "low beam only". However the peak lux of this low beam at 10' is over 1700 lux with a 1500 lumen source, in a 12* wide hotspot. Which is just about as bright as a high end newer LED headlight hotspot. Essentially what I am getting at, is that the distance that you will be able to see on the road, as well as not blinding oncoming traffic when aimed properly, is going to be further than almost anything that's been produced. I look forward to trying it out on the road in person myself. I've done a few night rides on my road bike, but I tend to shy away from doing that as I am not totally comfortable with local drivers on my own, otherwise I have some local downtown night rides with groups of people.



> Anyway...keep up the good work. I like new ideas


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Looking forward to sharing more soon!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Outbound said:


> ...I do hope that I didn't lead people on thinking that the road and the MTB optic are in the same lamp. They are separate units that are using two different optical reflectors. This is why I am intending on offering both units for purchase on their own at a much lower price without the battery pack in case users want to have a MTB specific light for their trail bike, and a road specific light for their dedicated road bike. I know that some users might use the same bike for both, but that might be a future product where we can make both work (and I know we can).
> 
> I fully look forward to hearing the opinions of this lighting community once we have a beta prototype and start delivering the first production units. Any improvements will be quickly implemented if the light is a success, part of the positive of having it all designed here, including the software, electrical, mechanical, and optical design work.


Actually, I did think you were talking about an all in one MTB/Road set-up but I guess that helps explain the two different types of beam patterns you were showing. My personal opinion is that you should primarily focus on the road version. Good MTB set-ups abound and most people don't have a problem finding optical set-ups that suit their MTB needs.

When it comes to providing a high beam set-up for the road there really is no reason to have to get fancy. A simple single or duel spot optic can do the trick quite nicely. I wouldn't think it too hard to design a lamp with the main mirror optic supplying the low beam and then perhaps including a couple simple single LED spots in the upper part of the light to provide the high beam throw when it is needed. This said it would be nice if this high beam section had a separate "tilt' feature that could allow the user to aim the high spot beam for maximum effect. Once again, a remote that would allow the user to activate a high beam when needed would be excellent.

Regardless of everything I just said about what I'd like to see in the future, right now I would be super happy with a road lamp that provided the beam pattern I mentioned before but yet bright enough that perhaps ( when in it's brightest mode ) an extra lamp for high beam might not even be needed. My current road low beam lamp has a maximum output of near 500 lumen. This actually works very well for me 90% of the time but when I hit a long down hill and my speed picks up I kick in the extra lamp if no oncoming cars are coming. Since the extra lamp has a remote It's super easy to turn it on or off with one quick push ( Gemini Duo with duel spots and wireless remote ) My current road lamp is the Raveman CR-500. As a single optic lamp It supplies a very nice wide even beam pattern with sharp cutoff. These will be one of your biggest competitors because they are upgrading their lamps and so they will likely be better than the current selection that they presently sell.

In the future I look to be reviewing one or two of the newer Raveman lamps whenever they are released. This said I don't show product favoritism unless it is well earned. Competition is always welcome....Make it better and they will come.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cat-man-do said:


> When it comes to providing a high beam set-up for the road there really is no reason to have to get fancy. A simple single or duel spot optic can do the trick quite nicely. I wouldn't think it too hard to design a lamp with the main mirror optic supplying the low beam and then perhaps including a couple simple single LED spots in the upper part of the light to provide the high beam throw when it is needed. This said it would be nice if this high beam section had a separate "tilt' feature that could allow the user to aim the high spot beam for maximum effect. Once again, a remote that would allow the user to activate a high beam when needed would be excellent.


There actually is some really trick optics being used in automotive stuff for compact high-beam like optical parts. One hint is to look at the newest Cadillac esclade headlights. The trouble with it is the high tooling costs. They require optical grade polishing (SPI-A1), but we have been locating some more high quality suppliers who are getting the job done despite stringent requirements. Then a matter of chip selection and packaging.

It's definitely in the future planning though! I'd absolutely love to have a "do everything" kind of light, the real undeniable challenge will be to make it outperform everything and not end up being $500. The economies of scale make it harder. Hence why we are starting out with more standalone lights to get established, let people know what good optical systems can be like when they experience them in person, and then build from there.

If really interested in finding out more about automotive optical design, or more generally whats called Illumination Engineering as opposed to optical engineering (since that focuses on telescopes, camera systems, and not illumination) then I'd suggest trying to find these books. Basically a collection of whitepapers published by various companies every 2 years.









What is really cool is that a lot of new automotive lighting systems are trending towards making ultra-efficient optics due to the wave of electrical cars coming. Figuring out how to get the most out of a limited number of lumens, yet still provide enough lighting for a car to hit the highway at 80+mph. While also reducing system sizes due to styling requirements. All of this stuff can trickle down to bicycling as well!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

We are starting to put stuff together for a kickstarter we are planning on running in a few weeks. The product will move forward irregardless as we have some local shops who are willing to stock it and help us promote. Though we want to reward the early adopters with a discounted light to help get it in the hands of people quickly so we can get some reviews out there!




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=360380247715720



Will be 100% waterproof. Will have to determine the depth rating, but should have zero worries about removing it when hosing your bike off, or to put it under a faucet to clean the mud off of it!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Outbound said:


> What is Focal Series?
> This is the first product from Outbound. Using OSRAM Black Flat automotive grade chips, a downward firing multi-segmented reflector, automotive grade optically clear silicone lens and a magnesium die cast body to wrap everything into a highly efficient, well-engineered, robust bike light that I hope will redefine what you come to expect from a bike light for the trail.
> 
> I strongly welcome any questions, opinions, and more! I want this to be the best light, period!


Very interesting project, very different than all others we can usualy see.* This I would call inovative!*

There are many questions appears in my mind:
- how/where do you place leds against reflector? How many leds?
- isn't magnesium worse than aluminium in heat transfer?
- how do you get so high electrical efficiency?
- what connector do you use? I doubt you normaly use DC5521 connector,very likely planned only for separate light head?

there are many more, but enough for now. Thanks.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

ledoman said:


> Very interesting project, very different than all others we can usualy see.* This I would call inovative!*


+1 on this.

I understand to some degree the difficulty in creating the reflector shape and the cost of tooling to build those reflectors. I've always been intrigued by shaped beams since seeing the Phillips Saferide. I've cut commercial parabolics at varying dimensions and rigged them on my "test bench" to see the resulting beam shape. None were good enough to pursue building a housing around. I even machined some aluminum parabolas on my CNC and polished them with what I had on hand. Again none were promising enough to try to build into a light. Short of having some optical design software (or even any real knowledge of optical design) I decided to quit wasting time on those experiments.

Ever since my bad experience with NR halogen lights pushed me to start building my own LED lights, I've never considered buying a "commercial" light. If this Outbound product comes to fruition, I may have to reconsider that.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

ledoman said:


> Very interesting project, very different than all others we can usualy see.* This I would call inovative!*
> 
> There are many questions appears in my mind:
> - how/where do you place leds against reflector? How many leds?
> ...


1. The LED's are sitting around a focal length of 7-8mm. The OSRAM and the Lumileds LED's are what is considered "5 die", so 5 tiny little LED's put into one package. The size of the chips are around 1mm on each side, the tiny emitter size combined with the large lumen amounts means a VERY high luminance value, or the brightness of a chip. This is why they are used in automotive lighting and not chips like the CREE XML2 or any X-lamp series. This is a picture of one of the raytraces from the side. Don't infer anything from the direction and stuff of the rays, this is from an older revision of the reflector that I had prototyped and realized I wanted to make more changes.









2. You are correct that from a pure numbers standpoint, die cast magnesium is 'worse' than die cast aluminum (about 25% reduction in thermal conductivity). However when you can engineer a heat sink to optimize the fin height, fin thickness, and more importantly are in an environment that allows for high convection, such as sitting on a bike handebar, then you can make a magnesium heat sink work as well as an aluminum one, but without the weight penalty. This is why a lot of OEM automotive lighting is moving towards magnesium heat sinks with either ducted air tubes, or fans inside the headlights.

I had run simulations while developing the product to go between aluminum and magnesium, mostly as a sanity check. But when switching just material properties in a simulation, the aluminum ends up only being 1% better as far as the reduction in temperature at the LED junction. However the weight increase would be almost 50% since you can't do the thin features in aluminum that you can get away with in magnesium. This is why the board, the thermal interface, and the heat sink design matters far more than the heat sink material. We are planning on using copper core, or potentially ceramic core. Ceramic is a fairly new tech being introduced in headlighting, the cost is higher, but since the actual MPCB size is fairly small, we might be able to make it work within our cost structure.

(P.S. this picture is a simulation run at 17W of thermal heat generation, at 8mph wind speed at 68*F initial ambient. Overbuilt with future chips in mind that won't be available until the automotive OEM's get the huge MOQ's going that it can trickle down to the lesser numbers that we can obtain, few years out for that. We won't be running anywhere close to that thermal load)








3. Asked my electrical engineer your question: "We are using a high quality DC/DC switching boost controller designed for efficiency at it's core (MP3431GL-Z). This coupled to an ultra efficient LED lets the battery generate more light and less heat. It might surprise some people that it is a voltage controlled chip, not current.... we are controlling the current by controlling the voltage. Gives us very tight control of the actual current in the micro."

It helps that he's been doing this stuff for years, but more on the motor side in high power RC electronics. 

4. Right now we are indeed planning around a DC5521. I want the ability to use older battery packs one may already have laying around. Almost half of our cost is in the batteries themselves. So if I can offer a cheaper light to get more people interested by saying they can use their old battery packs then I think it's worthwhile. We won't lose or gain more money either way, and I think just helps make the price of entry a lot more enticing ($135 vs $225) to get more people experiencing the power of a good lamp.

Hope this answers some of your questions!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes, thank you. Things are more clear now. I didn't think of using 5 die led. This would be somewhat similar to 5 Cree XP-E just on same base. Obviously we are quite limited with our knowledge and you have experience in automotive world which is different on what we are used on.

So it is OSLON KW HLL531.TE or KW H5L531.TE ? Anyway both have same size of 5.5mm2 radiating surface but bit different forward currents. With typical Vf 15.1V you need to step up (boost) the voltage from 5-8.4V range. This would need high current flow if I understand things correctly. That's why I'm skeptic about DC5521 connector. Will try to find datasheet about MP3431GL-Z chip.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

ledoman said:


> Yes, thank you. Things are more clear now. I didn't think of using 5 die led. This would be somewhat similar to 5 Cree XP-E just on same base. Obviously we are quite limited with our knowledge and you have experience in automotive world which is different on what we are used on.
> 
> So it is OSLON KW HLL531.TE or KW H5L531.TE ? Anyway both have same size of 5.5mm2 radiating surface but bit different forward currents. With typical Vf 15.1V you need to step up (boost) the voltage from 5-8.4V range. This would need high current flow if I understand things correctly. That's why I'm skeptic about DC5521 connector. Will try to find datasheet about MP3431GL-Z chip.


The Altilon or the Black Flat would be more in line with the new CREE FX series that is being made in response to those. The XP-E is "smaller" than the typical CREE, but with the domed primary optic, it is trying to create a bit more even illumination suited more for architectural lighting rather than an "open die" where the relative intensity curve is suited more for directional illumination. The extremely high brightness is key for highly optimized optics. This is why lasers were pursued for a bit a few years ago for high-beam lighting (BMW and Audi both touted laser lights for their cars for a bit) because the intense laser point creates a very high luminance. However in the last year or two the luminance of LED chips quickly are catching up to laser to the point laser lighting is almost done away with. Neat novelty for a bit, but the extra cost and compliance measures just wasn't worth the small performance improvement.

We started testing with the HKL531.TE, and may still go with that just pushing it a bit harder, however if my SMT supplier can get their hands on the Altilon SMD in the 5-die configuration for a good price we may go with that just because the lumileds are something I am a bit more experienced with. I use the ZE S chip in a lot of applications for the work I do in my other job, and know they are just powerhouses. The lumiled stuff can take a thermal beating well beyond their ratings and just keep trucking. It also is nice the Lumileds rates their stuff at a "normal" operating range rather than cold like OSRAM does.

KW HKL531.TE | OSLON Black Flat | OSRAM Opto Semiconductors

http://www.lumileds.com/uploads/657/DS175-pdf

Downside is that unless you buy 50,000 of them at once, it's veryyyyy pricey. Was able to secure a supplier for the OSRAM chips however. Both are extremely similar in performance, so it's really going to come down to availability.

As for the DC5521, most of them are rated for 220V and 6.5A. So with the chips pulling around 13-14V and at most 1.2A we don't really have many concerns about the connector itself. Despite the increased performance, these will be running less total wattage than a typical high power light. That's one of the exciting things about this. Even if we run at 1300-1500 lumens, it will have the same light intensity, but more width and even illumination than something like a NiteRider Pro 1800 lumen, except twice the battery life because of the efficiency we are introducing. Especially if users try out the adaptive mode that very slowly reduces the light output as your eye gets used the surrounding light so that you can eek out another 40-50 minutes out of the battery pack instead of just running a solid "high" all the time.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I couldn't get datasheet for MP3431GL-Z chip unless I register as a company at Monolithic Power System. Can you provide it on private at least?

For Lumiled 5x I've found Vf 15.7V @ 1.2A (85°C) so close to 19W while Osram 4x has Vf 12.2V @ 1.2A (25°C) thus only 15W. We need to add some power for driver and loses in wireing. This would lead to 3-4A from battery on highest power if we simplify calculation and take up to 24W as its worst then 6-8V from battery gets 4A down to 3A if driver is regulated.

Don't know what connectors you can get, but I'm shure those Chinese ones has quite big resistance. Did not measure it, but on Zanflare B3 light I've meassured 0.38V drop from battery to the driver at its higest power @5A and about 0.20V @3A. That's why I'm concerned about those connectors.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

I don't think 60 lux is enough. I use B&M dyno lights with cutoff beams, similar to the beams you're proposing. They went from 60 (Cyo) to 80 (Cyo premium), now 100lux(IQ-X). Thats for road riding, you probably want more on the trail.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

ledoman said:


> I couldn't get datasheet for MP3431GL-Z chip unless I register as a company at Monolithic Power System. Can you provide it on private at least?
> 
> For Lumiled 5x I've found Vf 15.7V @ 1.2A (85°C) so close to 19W while Osram 4x has Vf 12.2V @ 1.2A (25°C) thus only 15W. We need to add some power for driver and loses in wireing. This would lead to 3-4A from battery on highest power if we simplify calculation and take up to 24W as its worst then 6-8V from battery gets 4A down to 3A if driver is regulated.
> 
> Don't know what connectors you can get, but I'm shure those Chinese ones has quite big resistance. Did not measure it, but on Zanflare B3 light I've meassured 0.38V drop from battery to the driver at its higest power @5A and about 0.20V @3A. That's why I'm concerned about those connectors.


PS. I couldn't found anything about Cree FX series, only annoucement about new NX technology and XLamp XD16 which can't find either.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

znomit said:


> I don't think 60 lux is enough. I use B&M dyno lights with cutoff beams, similar to the beams you're proposing. They went from 60 (Cyo) to 80 (Cyo premium), now 100lux(IQ-X). Thats for road riding, you probably want more on the trail.


Correct. What I was describing was 60 lux on the ground at various distances for consistent bright lighting. They rate their lights as peak lux at 10m looking straight forward typically. For the same measurement the trail version will have 80+ according to simulations, and the road version will have 140-150+ lux because it's a bit more concentrated beam due to the cutoff.

For comparison. The Niterider pro 1400 measures a peak of 65 lux at 10m. The Ion700 measures 60 lux (much narrower hotspot concentration than the niterider, so similar peak lux, but half the lumens). But have to remember that peak lux isn't everything. Some of the chinese lights have peak lux of 200, but the beam is so narrow that even on the road it's hard to use. So have to balance power and width.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

ledoman said:


> PS. I couldn't found anything about Cree FX series, only annoucement about new NX technology and XLamp XD16 which can't find either.


My mistake, meant to say NX. NX Technology Platform

I doubt will see the CREE NX chips inside any headlights anytime soon simply because they are not automotive qualified. Very important for supply chain stuff in automotive OEM. I think more people are going to just try and cram a bunch of them into a small area and keep the same optic size, when you can do so much more with it...


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

ledoman said:


> I couldn't get datasheet for MP3431GL-Z chip unless I register as a company at Monolithic Power System. Can you provide it on private at least?
> 
> For Lumiled 5x I've found Vf 15.7V @ 1.2A (85°C) so close to 19W while Osram 4x has Vf 12.2V @ 1.2A (25°C) thus only 15W. We need to add some power for driver and loses in wireing. This would lead to 3-4A from battery on highest power if we simplify calculation and take up to 24W as its worst then 6-8V from battery gets 4A down to 3A if driver is regulated.
> 
> Don't know what connectors you can get, but I'm shure those Chinese ones has quite big resistance. Did not measure it, but on Zanflare B3 light I've meassured 0.38V drop from battery to the driver at its higest power @5A and about 0.20V @3A. That's why I'm concerned about those connectors.


I can request the datasheet it from my EE. He's been working with the connectors we get from battery suppliers, and from lights I sent him to evaluate for performance, so have been doing all the calculations based on the DC5521 connectors, doesn't seem t have any pressing concerns about them. I won't try to correct any numbers as it's not my specialty, but I'll ask him about them. Do you know how long the zanflare wiring was?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Outbound said:


> My mistake, meant to say NX. NX Technology Platform


Yes this is all I could find at the moment. Will have to wait and see what's all about and what influence will have for us (targeting on cheap solutions, to be honest).


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Outbound said:


> I can request the datasheet it from my EE. He's been working with the connectors we get from battery suppliers, and from lights I sent him to evaluate for performance, so have been doing all the calculations based on the DC5521 connectors, doesn't seem t have any pressing concerns about them. I won't try to correct any numbers as it's not my specialty, but I'll ask him about them. Do you know how long the zanflare wiring was?


Zanflare B3 wire is not a problem at all. It is 16AWG, so even quite long should be good. Actualy it is rather short about 25-30cm. On the battery side it was 0.5m long 20 AWG (1m extension wire cut on half), so not quite long either.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Thought I'd throw some pictures out of the design process. No fancy industrial designed digital sketches here. Started with me just quickly freehanding some ideas I had floating in my head. Then got to modeling in Solidworks and printing many many many basic shapes to get an idea on size and form factor. From there started going down several paths in terms of styling and optical. This was an intense long process that took several months until I got to a design that I was happy with. We then got parts machined and powdercoated so that things could be tried out in the real world. Since then I've made several more styling changes as you guys have seen in the renderings.

























Inching towards the production part samples and electrical. This is the period of development where things slow down a bit as we wait on suppliers to cut tools and get parts shot. Takes anywhere from 30-45 days.


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## gipsyman (Nov 18, 2014)

I am very interested in your road light. I am so glad someone in the USA with your extensive lighting background is taking on this difficult task of building a quality on-road bike light. As there are few well controlled and bright on-road lights, your offering should be a very, very good seller at approximately $135. You are in direct competition with the Supernova M99 series which are way more expensive. I was planning on purchasing a Lupine SL-A in November but will now wait for your light build. 

I presently use a custom built externally powered Philips SafeRide that produces 127 lux at 10 meters on high. I rarely use high except on newly paved pitch black roads or when caught out in the rain. The efficiency of the TaskLed driver is only 85% though and having a new light with higher more evenly distributed lux numbers hitting the road would be welcome for all conditions. Also the Philips beam width is a little narrow at -25 to +25. I look forward to seeing some good outdoor photos of the road beam pattern.

A few questions:

1) Since the Oslon Black Flat led array has the negative terminal as part of the base led heat sink, how do you plan on electrically isolating it from the magnesium body? By using a non-electrically conductive thermal pad perhaps?

2) How many light levels are you going to program in your led driver and will they be user adjustable? Lupine only has 2 non-adjustable levels and 2 modes in their SL-A light which I think is a severe limitation. The CEO of Lupine doesn't believe it's a limitation though.

I have to agree with Cat-Man-Do on the off-road version not being your primary sales focus though. There are a lot of very good off-road light head only options between $100-200. The light beam control for off-road can be a lot looser and still be useable than a true on-road light. I am nowhere near as picky about my off-road lights as I am about my on-road lighting.

Thanks for the photos of your design process. You also have some really innovative ideas in your proposed light.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

gipsyman said:


> A few questions:
> 
> 1) Since the Oslon Black Flat led array has the negative terminal as part of the base led heat sink, how do you plan on electrically isolating it from the magnesium body? By using a non-electrically conductive thermal pad perhaps?
> 
> 2) How many light levels are you going to program in your led driver and will they be user adjustable? Lupine only has 2 non-adjustable levels and 2 modes in their SL-A light which I think is a severe limitation. The CEO of Lupine doesn't believe it's a limitation though.


1. I can't speak too closely for the electrical isolation, but that's never been a problem for any metal core board that I've worked with. Whether a thermal interface material was used or not. So I assume the engineers are doing something with the masking and such to isolate. However we will be using thermal interface material irregardless. Having a thermal pathway from the LED to the heatsink is absolutely critical, so will be using a high quality TIM that we use in LED headlights that I design at my normal job.

2. Right now planned around 5 or 6. High, High-med, medium, low, slow pulse, and an "adaptive" mode that basically starts out on high, and then very slowly reduces the power down as your eyes start to adjust to the light. Physically it'll feel like the light never dimmed, even though we can reduce power by 15-25% before it becomes noticeable, which will help prolong battery life even further if the user chooses to do so.

As for the user setting their own level preference, we don't have any plans on doing that for now. Though if you have any suggestions on how to do it without bluetooth and with a single button, I'm open to ideas. I personally haven't used a light where I felt like I needed to customize the light levels, but generally I just go to high and see where it goes from there.

---------------

Thought I'd also show you guys another thing I've been working on as I prepare for this kickstarter campaign. Pretty neat interactive 3d model that lets you check out various annotations I've setup and such. I think it's cool.  Hopefully you guys do too!

https://sketchfab.com/models/19c35118be704bd2b7b5a85269e2bf63


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Outbound said:


> Thought I'd also show you guys another thing I've been working on as I prepare for this kickstarter campaign. Pretty neat interactive 3d model that lets you check out various annotations I've setup and such. I think it's cool.  Hopefully you guys do too!
> 
> https://sketchfab.com/models/19c35118be704bd2b7b5a85269e2bf63


Very cool!

-Garry


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## gipsyman (Nov 18, 2014)

*Custom Programming*



Outbound said:


> 2. Right now planned around 5 or 6. High, High-med, medium, low, slow pulse, and an "adaptive" mode that basically starts out on high, and then very slowly reduces the power down as your eyes start to adjust to the light. Physically it'll feel like the light never dimmed, even though we can reduce power by 15-25% before it becomes noticeable, which will help prolong battery life even further if the user chooses to do so.
> 
> As for the user setting their own level preference, we don't have any plans on doing that for now. Though if you have any suggestions on how to do it without bluetooth and with a single button, I'm open to ideas. I personally haven't used a light where I felt like I needed to customize the light levels, but generally I just go to high and see where it goes from there.
> 
> ...


Very nice 3d demo model of your light build. It is obvious you're a professional designer.

The proper user interface for a bike light is high on the list of desireability. Such as no strobe or pulse in the normal low-med-high rotation. The desire for programmable light levels stems from wanting to optimize for battery life and personal riding style. Everyones night vision ability is different. While road riding, I like to retain as much of my natural night vision as possible so I can enjoy the great outdoors as part of it. Otherwise I might as well just stay inside and ride my boring trainer for exercise.

I have been road night riding 4000 miles a year with a true cut-off beam light (custom Philips SafeRide) for the last 4 years. It has a total beam angle of 50 degrees. As an ideal light level program I settled on a 27 lux low beam, 78 lux medium, and 127 lux high level. I ride in California, Arizona,Texas, and Michigan during different seasons. If your Focal Series light has about 30 lux low, 80 lux medium, and over 130 lux high I wouldn't desire any custom levels at all. On back roads with little traffic I use the low level but bump it up to medium when there is traffic. These lux levels are measured at 10 meters at the top part of the beam which is the brightest area. I can't program this light while moving as the custom program mode has way too many options.

My favorite programmable interface is on my off-road only Gemini lights. I can program this light while actually moving. The following is the Gemini interface.

To switch the light ON, press the button.
To switch the light OFF, press the button for 1s.
To cycle through the different LOW, MED, HIGH modes, press the button repeatedly.
To enter FLASH mode, start in the OFF position, press and hold the button for 1s. The makes the flash mode hidden.

PROGRAMMING MODES

There are 10 different brightness levels available to save as the default. (I actually think 10 levels are too many)
LOW, MED, HIGH, FLASH modes are all programmable.

1. Navigate to the selected mode and press the button for 3s. The light will enter programming mode and output 10% brightness. The back lit button on the light will begin flashing amber indicating the light is in programming mode.

2. With each click of the button, the light cycles through the 10 different brightness levels: 20 - 30 - 40 - 50 - 60 - 70 - 80 - 90 - 100% . . . 10 - 20 - 30% . . .

3. To save the brightness level and exit programming mode, press the button for 3s.
The light will turn off and on again to confirm the change.

My least favorite programmable light is my Gloworm XS because it is too easy to double click the interface button and unintentionally go into program mode.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

This kind of user interface has also KD2 light just a bit different timings. See post #16. I agree it's one of the best user interfaces out there.


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## gipsyman (Nov 18, 2014)

ledoman said:


> This kind of user interface has also KD2 light just a bit different timings. See post #16. I agree it's one of the best user interfaces out there.


Thanks for the link ledoman but I think it should be as follows:

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...umens-bicycle-light-picture-heavy-940595.html

Your discussion of the user interface is very well explained. I think cat-man-do also has commented in the past that he liked that style user programmable interface.

I am discussing the light levels of the road version below, not the trail version. Someone else needs to measure and respond to Outbound for the lowest useable off-road levels.

If outbound has about a 30-35 lux low beam for the Focal Series and well spaced out upper levels I would still be satisfied without custom programming. A 60 lux low beam would be a waste of battery and also a little too bright for me to retain good night vision. Most street lights are just a little dimmer than my Philips SafeRide at 30 lux low beam. My eyes don't have to re-adjust to the dark every time I go through a neighborhood and back to an unlit roadway at 30 lux.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes I know it is about road version you are talking about. I just wanted to emphize about possible solution since he was asking:



Outbound said:


> As for the user setting their own level preference, we don't have any plans on doing that for now. *Though if you have any suggestions on how to do it without bluetooth and with a single button, I'm open to ideas.* I personally haven't used a light where I felt like I needed to customize the light levels, but generally I just go to high and see where it goes from there.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

To me an easy to use mode button is the first thing I consider when judging UI preference. My favorite lights to use (all my Ituo lights, C&B Seen 7up, 2017 X2 and my BT21s) all have mode buttons I can operate reliably with one finger. Least favorite lights to use (Taz 1500, Duo, Yinding) have either hard to press mode buttons or ones that have poor feel leading to poor mode switching performance in both cases. Great Gemini programming is sabotaged by duo's hard to use mode button (not a problem on the Olympia or Xera) or frustrating inconsistent mode changes and unintentionally entering programming mode is eliminated (for me) by Gloworm's new "better feel" remote button making it a much friendlier light to use.

Mode setting preference for off-road has to go to the C&B seen used in its programming mode. Rapid multiple level changes are made easy by the 2 button wireless remote. Still prefer programmable presets for road use but just a high/low is fine for conventional bike lights. With cutoff beam lights need to rapidly reduce light is minimized and extra preset modes for battery conservation is useful. Pretty hard to please everybody without mode programmability but still possible to make most happy with a good mode button and smartly chosen presets.
Mole


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I still have yet to use a light with a remote, but I really want to try one. I've definitely had times where I wanted to change modes, but the riding conditions didn't allow me the opportunity to take my hand away from gripping the bar. 

-Garry


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## Sirius9 (Apr 24, 2013)

garrybunk said:


> I still have yet to use a light with a remote, but I really want to try one.
> -Garry


Me also, wireless remote especially.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Great discussion guys, I really appreciate it.

You'll be happy to know that I totally agree on an easy to use button being critical. I'm really happy with how ours turned out. My electrical engineer sourced a great feeling switch and it works well with the oversized silicone button I designed. Very easy to press, firm feedback, and can press it easily while riding even on a trail.

I have a meeting planned with my engineer doing the firmware to discuss a more finalized version of the programming. I am definitely taking all your points into consideration, brought up some great ones. May have to snag the gemini for myself (one of the few I haven't yet) and check out that programming.

-----------

We've gotten some rough machining shots from our supplier for the diecast and the reflector. These are the first passes they do before its sent for higher precision on machines with more toolheads. In the case of the reflector, it has to go to an EDM shop to get the very fine reflector faces precision machined. Wouldn't be able to machine and then polish reflectors this small. EDM is fantastic (but expensive) for getting this tiny detailed features.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

*beam diagramm*

What about remote? This will be a very important control feature.
Two keys would be perfect, one for + and one for - for example.

And do you have some beam diagramm like this?
bumm.de/en/technologie-detail-en/iq-iq2-iq-premium-41.html
Philips SafeRide 40 i SafeRide 80 - bezpieczne miasto. - Light-Test.info
enhydralutris.de/Fahrrad/Goniometer/Bilder/gox20110222b_50m_25m.html


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Unfortunately no remote right now. I won't rule it out in the future, but right now sticking with the mantra of KISS. Focused the efforts on a great beam pattern, long battery life, total waterproofness, and ultra reliable electronics with zero soldered joints.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

why not have a thumbwheel for continuous light level adjustment?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

beanbag said:


> why not have a thumbwheel for continuous light level adjustment?


That'd be pretty tough to weatherproof, and to be honest, at least for myself I often just find one light level and stick to it. If battery starts depleting I'll step it down (or have the software do it for me). More things to focus on when riding than the light level!


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

ok, well how about + and - buttons to adjust the light level, so we don't have to memorize morse code.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

beanbag said:


> ok, well how about + and - buttons to adjust the light level, so we don't have to memorize morse code.


It will have 5 status lights that will indicate which level you are on. I agree about hating having to click through half a dozen times to make sure you are on the highest level.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

How about an update on how this project is going?
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Thanks for checking in!

It has had it's up's and downs!

So was sort of a lull as I waited on a few production samples of some parts and the electrical engineer whipped up some more prototypes of the control boards and the MPCB. Got some samples of the reflectors. Made pretty much dead on to what I had designed, and was reaching the power levels and spreads that I expected, however there was a dark spot in the beam pattern that should not have been there, and too much light lower in the pattern.

Did a lot of measuring, simulation, and was able to validate that the aluminized plating pooled up a bit on a few particular faces based on how it was sitting in the vacuum metalization chamber. The extra thickness (0.2mm) was enough to push the facet out of angle, and create a hole in the beam pattern. Not too happy about that.

So the manufacture says that they'll fix that, we'll put quality checks in to make sure more consistent plating thickness. However taking this opportunity to refine the beam pattern some more, and make a more robust reflector surface that won't be as sensitive to slight manufacturing issues as the prior one was. The company doing our reflectors work extremely fast, so hoping it won't affect our timeline too much, as the current long-lead item is the LED chips themselves and the silicone lenses.

The electrical engineer did pull out his mountain bike that he hadn't used in years and finally got riding again after I sent him one of the prototype castings and a prototype lens. He had a blast, and took a few pics. Remember that this is a very early prototype reflector. I'll try and get my good camera out and take some pics of the current iteration of reflectors even with the dark spot that we are working out.









He had the light aimed a bit too high in the pic, but the key thing to notice is the extremely even field of light from the front of the tire to nearly 50-75' out and the width, even when just taken with an iphone. The second iteration of reflectors added about 5* of width for the hotspot on either side, and the now 3rd iteration of reflector design will make the beam pattern smooth as butter.

(also remember, the main button will not be backlit as brightly as it seems in the picture, it's missing some parts that will act as a light blocker)


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Wow! That beam pattern looks fantastic! Good to hear things are moving along!

-Garry


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

It's one of the most interesting projects currently. 
Do you aim at MTB only or road use with cut off beam too?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

angerdan said:


> It's one of the most interesting projects currently.
> Do you aim at MTB only or road use with cut off beam too?


Thanks!

We have both an MTB reflector, and a road use reflector. The road one has a sharp cutoff and a bit tighter hotspot to get more intensity for those 45mph downhills.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Great, sounds interesting!
How's your strategy during development and for release?
Do you think it will be an alternative to the Lupine SL A for example?


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## rlb81 (Aug 18, 2008)

Outbound said:


> Thanks!
> 
> We have both an MTB reflector, and a road use reflector. The road one has a sharp cutoff and a bit tighter hotspot to get more intensity for those 45mph downhills.


It looks like a great project and I am interested! Did I miss the kickstarter link, or is that still in the works?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

angerdan said:


> Great, sounds interesting!
> How's your strategy during development and for release?
> Do you think it will be an alternative to the Lupine SL A for example?


I do believe it will be a good alternative to the SL-A. It will have a well defined cutoff and a bit more width and "softness" to the edges of the beam pattern as a result of being a reflector based design rather than a lens based. Early pre-production reflector tests weren't quite as good as I hoped, so redesigned the surfaces and having the supplier redo them (at my cost, boo, but that's the price of development).



rlb81 said:


> It looks like a great project and I am interested! Did I miss the kickstarter link, or is that still in the works?


Haven't missed anything yet! We had originally had the goal of doing a kickstarter at the begining of October with an early Nov launch date. We have pushed it back a month since a redesign of the reflector is needed, as well as the LED's becoming a long-lead item along with the silicone lens. So now the tenative plan is to launch a KS in November, and hope to deliver the first units in early December.

We will be assembling everything here in St. Louis, so this product will be truly designed and assembled in USA.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

KS in nov and delivery in dec sounds very fast.
Hope you'll collect enough founders in this short time!

How about the light distribiution, the Lupine SL has some bright area close in front of the bicycle. This result in lower visibility for objects in the distance, since the eyes try to adapt to the close bright area. 
So for street use a homogenous illuminance level or ascending towards the distance (until the cut off) would solve this topic. 
What do you think about this?

And which CRI do the planned LED chips have?

Good to see you're using an DC 5521 plug.



Outbound said:


> GoPro mount adapter will be included on every light head. More future mounting options will be available as more people give me some ideas on how they want to have their lamps mounted! So ideas are always welcome!


In case of limited space, a solution for mounting underneath the bar (instead of on top) would be useful. 
Also solutions for fixed mounting as well as fast attach holders for quick detachment in urban areas (while maintaining the exact position/alignment of the holder).


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

angerdan said:


> KS in nov and delivery in dec sounds very fast.
> Hope you'll collect enough founders in this short time!
> 
> How about the light distribiution, the Lupine SL has some bright area close in front of the bicycle. This result in lower visibility for objects in the distance, since the eyes try to adapt to the close bright area.
> ...


Check out the preview pic on our facebook page. The beam patterns are specifically designed to have an even pattern from the front of the tire to far out. It's tough to do without software, but we have it.  I cover the design aspects of the beam pattern in the "Optical design" on the first post.

https://www.facebook.com/OutboundLi...9609839459428/375680599519018/?type=3&theater

As for the kickstarter, we have already paid for almost all the tooling, we don't "need" the KS funds to make the product happen, it is more of a reward for early adopters to get deep discount on the planned retail pricing as well as to help spread awareness.

The chips aren't rated by CRI because they meet the SAE J578 standard which regulates the white color range that is required for automotive use. We will be working to try and get the 5500K color range of chips, but really going to be more based on availability and what has the lowest lead time. Some chips are in stock and can get a reel within a week or two, others have a lead time of up to 8 weeks. The quantity numbers we are working in means that more at the mercy of what's available since it's an automotive qualified chip, not just a typical off-the-shelf-cheap-CREE chip that suppliers have thousands of.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Here is an updated comparo showing the Trail beam pattern that is getting updated. Eagle eyed readers can probably spot the issue I am correcting, but this is a general idea of what to expect.

This also does not include our silicone lens which will act as a horizontal diffuser further softening the beam pattern. Switching to larger more overlapping facets on the reflector design is also going to help solve the "choppiness" of the beam pattern. Though noticeable when static, I find it hardly perceivable in motion. However I know we can make it better, so we will. 

This is comparing to the typical tight beam pattern found on a lot of the cheaper lights out there. I had a buddy who bought this light and swore up and down it was great, so I grabbed it just to show off what we got compared to what he thought was fantastic.









Really looking forward to the next round of reflectors, which we will probably have in a few weeks. We are waiting on the hard plastic and silicone production samples to arrive, as well as the magnesium die casting components. Those parts I am insanely excited to see.


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## rlb81 (Aug 18, 2008)

Looks pretty good! Will keep my eyes open for the Kickstarter.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Outbound said:


> ........This is comparing to the typical tight beam pattern found on a lot of the cheaper lights out there. I had a buddy who bought this light and swore up and down it was great, so I grabbed it just to show off what we got compared to what he thought was fantastic.


Well...

That tight spot is a pretty nice looking beam except for being a bit "ringy" in the spill area. Every light I've built has been with a goal of getting a tighter beam with a sharp transition from lit to dark. Every time I've ridden with a wide beam I find it makes weird, eye catching shadows out to the sides of the bike. Too distracting for me. At 50' out, if it makes a lit area wider than ~15 feet, I'm not liking it. If I need to see around a tight bend, a switchie or something, that's what my helmet light is for. It lights where I'm looking and bar light lights where the bike is currently going. Not the typical preference of most folks though.

I'm mainly intrigued by the down firing LED and not having "wasted" light shining upward as happens with conical beams.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Vancbiker said:


> Well...
> 
> That tight spot is a pretty nice looking beam except for being a bit "ringy" in the spill area. Every light I've built has been with a goal of getting a tighter beam with a sharp transition from lit to dark. Every time I've ridden with a wide beam I find it makes weird, eye catching shadows out to the sides of the bike. Too distracting for me. At 50' out, if it makes a lit area wider than ~15 feet, I'm not liking it. If I need to see around a tight bend, a switchie or something, that's what my helmet light is for. It lights where I'm looking and bar light lights where the bike is currently going. Not the typical preference of most folks though.
> 
> I'm mainly intrigued by the down firing LED and not having "wasted" light shining upward as happens with conical beams.


That is an interesting perspective. I know I've never felt distracted by shadows while riding with a wider beam. However I do hate the "flood" type of lights which just throw a wall of diffused light in every direction. Generally in my measurements and experience, a 90* total beam spread (so +/-45* from the center line) is just about right to see into faster corners while not being too distracting. Hence that is the beam pattern I aimed for. There is no reason to be lighting 90 degrees off to your right on a bar mounted light, that will mess with your peripheral vision.

What kind of trails do you ride? Mine range from really tight technical slow stuff, to mid-speed flow type trails. Not much high speed downhill. Though occasionally have the faster stuff through open spaces.

I'll be genuinely interested in your take when you get your hands on these.


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## MaverickRider (Sep 15, 2017)

"magnesium die cast body"

Isn't Magnesium a terrible heat conductor?


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Outbound said:


> ......What kind of trails do you ride? Mine range from really tight technical slow stuff, to mid-speed flow type trails. Not much high speed downhill. Though occasionally have the faster stuff through open spaces.
> 
> I'll be genuinely interested in your take when you get your hands on these.


I ride a wide variety. Trails closest to me are fairly tight and usually with moderately heavy underbrush close in. Often wet and kind of shiny when lit, particularly this time of year before the leaves have all fallen. I do ride some trails that start or end with logging/fire road or rail-to-trail sections. The logging/fire road sections are sometimes kind of steep and make for 25-30mph runs. I'll kick both lights on high for that! I've also ridden some of the local DH shuttle trails. I'm not much of a jumper to begin with, but night jumps are scary. I try to follow the concept of looking where you want to go. I think that kind of drives my preference for a narrow beam too.

When I ride more open trails like around the Bend/Sisters Oregon area, I suspect a wider beam might be less "troublesome" to me as there is less dense brush near the trail. I have done night rides on very open Utah and Arizona trails and have thought the same thing there too.

I started night riding while doing some 24 hour racing around 2000. Started out with NR halogens. At 2:00 am and a tired brain and body, things like shadows off to side of the bike start to grab hold of your attention. That's when I started looking for lighting that really just illuminated the trail only, and not the surroundings.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MaverickRider said:


> "magnesium die cast body"
> 
> Isn't Magnesium a terrible heat conductor?


Nope! Actually is starting to become very commonplace in automotive lighting because it's just as good as aluminum when in an air stream. I outlined the difference between aluminum and magnesium die cast in this post (point #2):

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...l-series-discussion-1055278.html#post13330624


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Outbound said:


> The chips aren't rated by CRI because they meet the SAE J578 standard which regulates the white color range that is required for automotive use. We will be working to try and get the 5500K color range of chips, but really going to be more based on availability and what has the lowest lead time. Some chips are in stock and can get a reel within a week or two, others have a lead time of up to 8 weeks. The quantity numbers we are working in means that more at the mercy of what's available since it's an automotive qualified chip, not just a typical off-the-shelf-cheap-CREE chip that suppliers have thousands of.


Why is it important for the chip to meet some automotive spec?
BTW, I prefer higher CRI and a lower color temperature, even if it means the output is a little lower.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

beanbag said:


> Why is it important for the chip to meet some automotive spec?
> BTW, I prefer higher CRI and a lower color temperature, even if it means the output is a little lower.


The automotive standard puts a tighter control on the color temperature allowed, since CRI is a fairly subjective and inaccurate measure of lighting. CRI is really only used in commercial lighting or home goods, sometimes theater stuff. But for automotive specs, it's required to fall within a certain range. The color temperature range will be in the high 4000's to mid 5000's. More of a neutral white. What we do is far more in common with automotive specifications, and they have millions of dollars of research and committees on lighting standards, color temps, driver requirements, etc. that it makes sense to follow their guidelines and specifications.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Always a joy to see the pictures of the first tests of the casting molds! These have been deburred, surface finished applied, and off to powdercoat before we have about 20 samples to work with for extended testing and validation.

As you can see, the styling changed a bit from the initial prototype, and the thermal improved significantly.

Got access to some new software at the other automotive company I work for, and have been updating the reflectors. Really cool stuff, and have spent probably an upwards of 80+ hours in the last two weeks simulating, tweaking, simulating, tweaking, on and on trying to get these things just right. I was not happy with the first production run, so pictures in the KS and other real-world beam patterns will be clearly marked as prototype still. Here's a simulation of the cutoff beam pattern that's been validated in two software sims.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Outbound said:


> The automotive standard puts a tighter control on the color temperature allowed,* since CRI is a fairly subjective and inaccurate measure of lighting. *CRI is really only used in commercial lighting or home goods, sometimes theater stuff. But for automotive specs, it's required to fall within a certain range. The color temperature range will be in the high 4000's to mid 5000's. More of a neutral white. What we do is far more in common with automotive specifications, and they have millions of dollars of research and committees on lighting standards, color temps, driver requirements, etc. that it makes sense to follow their guidelines and specifications.


Glad to see your new prototype coming along. I look forward to seeing how well it all works in the real world.

Now about the issue of CRI; I think CRI was suppose to make comparing light sources easier. Yes, it isn't used by every industry but like CCT it has it's positive aspects. CCT is closely related to CRI and both have reference to the Kelvin scale.

It's kind of like comparing the metric scale to the Imperial scale of ft. and inches. Both get the job done but depending on what you are used to working with one will always be easier to work with when compared to the other.

Personally I've always favored the Kelvin scale when it comes to light sources but like I said before, that's only because that's what I'm used to. It's also why a lot of industries still use it. If you look at the article on Wiki that talks about CRI, it seems very apparent that both CRI and CTT are quickly becoming obsolete. More newer definitive scales are evolving every day as the science becomes more technically definitive.

Of course even if a universal scale finally does comes to a final point of universal acceptance, a person who uses the scale is still going to have to compare the scale to what his/her eyes tell them is the best...and so it goes. Still, when the day comes that you can place an order and tell the person taking the order, " Oh, I want that in a UCC ( Universal Color Code ) 0152", "Last time I got an 0175 and that was a bit too cool", by that time I'll likely be dead and gone.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

I agree, more or less comes down to personal preference. I think CRI is a great thing to think about in a home when mixing various light sources like a halogen bulb and an LED bulb so it's not so obvious when walking around that there are different types of light sources. I always pay a bit more for the higher CRI when I install new lighting (my house is also basically LED heaven... my wife doesn't understand why I go through such great lengths to get good lighting.  ).

Thought I'd show off some more of the beam pattern and prototype use. I am fairly happy with how they look in pictures, obviously not capturing a lot of the spill light that you often get from bounces and just general low light with a camera, something I think all of you understand.









I was lucky enough to be able to test things out side-by-side with a new $430 Seca 2500 race and decided to make some changes after riding a lot with both lights separately. What I ultimately found is that peak lux was not an issue at all (Seca 2500 had a peak of 58 lux at 10m), what I really wanted was a little more width and smoother beam pattern. The Seca is a really well made light, will never knock it as being bad, fantastic for singletrack and fast trails. What was the key difference? Very smooth blend of light, could hardly tell where a hotspot was and that made all the difference when riding. Your brain isn't trying to work overtime to readjust for a constantly moving hotspot and instead can pick up lots of objects in the periphery.

While my initial reflector for trail is still far and away better than the spot lights I had been using (niterider 1400 for example, and dozens of cheaper options everyone uses here) after using the Seca I felt I could improve drastically, so back to the drawing board I went. Armed with some new software as well. This is essentially what the first reflector is, and what's shown in the real-world pictures. Wide spread, higher peak lux (around 100+) but the sharpness between light and dark was a little too contrasty for my tastes in real world applications compared to the Seca. (Don't mind the yellow hotspots in the lower corner, that's because I didn't set a surface to be diffuse that is in the real world, so the software assumed its a mirror)









The biggest change I made was to add another 30* of total beam width. This takes things from an initial 70* of beam width with to nearly 100*, while stretching and smoothing out the hotspot zone. What this does is result in a lower peak lux number, but makes for a far more usable light when actually riding and moving. It also helps to smooth the light out so the area where light starts and stops is less defined, making for an easier riding experience.









We probably won't have these updated reflectors ready in time for our kickstarter launch and media shots, but will be updating as soon as they come in


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

New reflector looks good, not to bright in close distance so eyes can focus on the distance without beeing disturbed by close distance brightness.

Do you have an bird view brightness diagramm like this one from B&M?
https://www.bumm.de/en/technologie-detail-en/iq-iq2-iq-premium-41.html

A quick look at bicycle lamps and high CRI light bulbs can be interesting, just for comparision: 
https://jtl.mytinysun.com/mediafiles/Sonstiges/Puefbericht+PB+328.pdf#page=4
LEDBenchmark - List of LEDs


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## rlb81 (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks for the updates, looks good!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

angerdan said:


> New reflector looks good, not to bright in close distance so eyes can focus on the distance without beeing disturbed by close distance brightness.
> 
> Do you have an bird view brightness diagramm like this one from B&M?
> https://www.bumm.de/en/technologie-detail-en/iq-iq2-iq-premium-41.html
> ...


So this might not be a direct comparison since I don't know what scale they are making assumptions at. So I just chose a 60 lux ground peak, even though I know they are talking about their 60 lux light. But here are some quick sims I did and screenshots. Same scale as the IQ (40m distance, and +/-15m left and right).

This is the road version:








And this is trail:








I think one of the bigger takeaways is the additional width earlier on in the distance, aka that 5m width. Have it almost immediately on the road version, and on the IQ2 it takes almost 10m before you have that width.

This is the full width beam plot. Normalized at 60 lux, and a 1 lux minimum. Now when most flashlights and other things are measured for "beam distance" they often use 0.25 lux.... which frankly I think is kind of B.S., 0.25lux is moonlight.... object recognition starts to happen around 1 lux of light, so I like to focus on that. When rating "0.25 lux beam distance" you can almost double your actual beam distance.... so be wary when you hear the term beam distance... Anyways, here's a comparison of the road vs trail. Can see how I optimized the trail for much much wider use, and the road is treated more like a conventional car headlight and almost 110 meters of real-world beam distance. Aka you'll be able to pickup objects on a roadway at over 360 feet away!

Road:








Trail:








Also for reference, the road has a peak lux of around 150.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Outbound said:


> So this might not be a direct comparison since I don't know what scale they are making assumptions at.
> 
> But here are some quick sims I did and screenshots. Same scale as the IQ (40m distance, and +/-15m left and right).
> I think one of the bigger takeaways is the additional width earlier on in the distance, aka that 5m width. Have it almost immediately on the road version, and on the IQ2 it takes almost 10m before you have that width.


What do you mean with scale - which color stands for which illuminance?

The second road-beam with 1lx at 110m seems to have problem i mentioned the previous post. 
Much more illuminance from 1-10m in front of the bike than in 50-100m and 20-50m distance. 
An homogen illuminance distribution between close/medium/far distance would be perfect (for me).

So distance visibility in full darkness reduces the more far visibility in fully darkness. That's my experience with riding on leaf planted gravel roads in the forest in early autumn mornings.
Currently i use an B&M Ixon IQ Premium for distance (at 80lx power setting) and an Ixon IQ (at 25lx) for close area visibility. So i can detect unilluminated road users early enough and also objects on the surface. 
At 25km/h (16mph), 30-50m visible light range are good.

For 40lx illuminance at most of the beam area and 12° beam angle, around 2.400lm would be needed. 
http://www.lumenrechner.de

So i'm just curious what do you think about it and approxemately which luminous flux you're planning do use with the new road version?


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Outbound said:


> We probably won't have these updated reflectors ready in time for our kickstarter launch and media shots, but will be updating as soon as they come in


Does that mean the kickstarter batch for sale won't get the updated reflector?

Also, most of my road riding involves going up a steep twisty road very slowly, and then descending it. I wonder if the road beam will be too narrow for me and I should get the MTB instead (an add an upper beam cutoff for the flat segments of road shared with oncoming cars). The main issue being that since I go up so slowly, there is a lot of swaying and twisting the handlebars back and forth, and thus the beam keeps sweeping around.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

beanbag said:


> Does that mean the kickstarter batch for sale won't get the updated reflector?
> 
> Also, most of my road riding involves going up a steep twisty road very slowly, and then descending it. I wonder if the road beam will be too narrow for me and I should get the MTB instead (an add an upper beam cutoff for the flat segments of road shared with oncoming cars). The main issue being that since I go up so slowly, there is a lot of swaying and twisting the handlebars back and forth, and thus the beam keeps sweeping around.


That does sound confusing doesn't it? What I meant to say is that the stuff we'll be using to shoot video and pictures for the KS won't be the updated reflector and will be trying to make that clear. Absolutely will have the updated reflector for the kickstarter backers.

As for the road, I think it'll be wide enough IMO. Angles and distances are sometimes pretty hard to get a grasp on without going out and measuring in the real world. Take a look at those bird eye plots, and go measure out 10 meter (30 feet) with a tape measure, mark it, then go 23' to your left, and 23' to your right, and that will be approximately the beam with of the road. 40* total spread is very wide, most road optimized bike reflectors I've seen and tested are on the 15 to 20* total spread range.

As for @angerdan:

Yes, I do mean the color scale. peak lux on the ground was 115 or so, so by scaling it so that 60 is absolute peak, it can change the overall perception of the chart. Honestly these charts can be difficult to read and compare with charts from other sources, and partly why most companies don't really show them off (if they are doing any optical work at all) since it can be pretty easy to misconstrue or misrepresent the data.

I do know what you are getting at in terms of having a dead even lux amount on the ground all the way up to a hundred meters in front of you. However the issue becomes that to do that, requires that the light is mounted in the exact same height and exact same angle every time. The variations in pitch and height can throw off those bird-eye plots wildly. For example, by setting the light height 7" lower in a simulation, I can double the lux on the ground immediately in front of the bike (from 115 to 240), however the human eye is a tricky thing, and the actual perceived brightness will be very hard to tell the difference between 240 and 115 lux.

I did go back and forth between several different variations of beams and what might work on a real-world ride and I felt this was a best compromise between theory and real-world application. I aimed to do exactly what you are suggesting and I do believe since you will have fairly even illumination from 0 to 25m is huge (0 to 82 feet!). Beyond that it's hard for the human eye to perceive the difference between 60 lux and 20 lux or even down to 3-4 lux. Especially on a flat surface like a road.

I do look forward to hearing your thoughts on it if you do pick up the road version. This absolutely will not be a locked and frozen design even after the launch. We are keeping the minimum order quantities from our suppliers low right now, even though it does cost us more money solely for the fact that it allows us to make changes more rapidly without having to sit on thousands and thousands of components. So if you guys feel there is a change that should be made to the programming (super easy) or the beam pattern (not so easy, but doable) then we'll have the ability to make those changes within a reasonable timeframe. Won't just say "wait until next year".


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

*Trelock LS 970 I-GO*

Mounting height in my opinions is better as high as possible. Not only beam range changes through different fork levels or bumps doesn't affect oncoming travffic that much like with low mounted lights. 
I guess you know what i want to descibe?
swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/verlichting/index_en.html#licht-bundel-hoogte

Talking about mounting in the exact same height and exact same angle every time, it's already technically possible to put an light on an small bicycle steadycam or put a gyroscope and stepping motor into the case to adjust it automatically like in some cars.

The brand new Trelock LS 970 I-GO has an integrated level meter for correct mounting.
mtb-news.de/forum/t/der-neue-trelock-ls-760-i-go-vision-100lux-scheinwerfer.858584/
sloger.sk/katalogy/TRELOCK_Katalog-2018.pdf#page=6

So what's described on 24 pages for cars is now possible on bicycles within seconds. 
iam-net.eu/cms/images/IAM-NET_Download/Hella/broschre_scheinwerfereinstellung.pdf

I would like to give you feedback on the road version. Until December i will have my reserve light (Supernova M99 Pure) mounted as well as the new B&M bicycle horn. (there'll also a Supernova bicycle horn in 2018)

Programming would be great if it would be customable for every lamp before/after buy. 
And maybe by placing several LEDs on different positions so by dimming/switching them off different beam shapes could be realised during a ride. Like only far distance beam on paved roads, full beam in forests and close are on combined pedestrian/cycle lanes/areas with street illumination or to save battery. Or a short light LED voltage peak as light horn (in combination with (cable) remote).


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Outbound said:


> As for the road, I think it'll be wide enough IMO. Angles and distances are sometimes pretty hard to get a grasp on without going out and measuring in the real world. Take a look at those bird eye plots, and go measure out 10 meter (30 feet) with a tape measure, mark it, then go 23' to your left, and 23' to your right, and that will be approximately the beam with of the road. 40* total spread is very wide, most road optimized bike reflectors I've seen and tested are on the 15 to 20* total spread range.


That plot you showed has the beam +/- 13 units either side at 30 units out.

Anyway, the point is that my road riding is slow and windy, not zooming down the highway at high speed. I guess I will need to see the actual beamshot to decide.

BTW, after we buy the unit, how easy would it be to change out reflector or LED?

Random comment: Most lights I have used waste too many of their settings on insultingly dim modes, and have too much gap between "full blast" mode and the 2nd brightest.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

beanbag said:


> That plot you showed has the beam +/- 13 units either side at 30 units out.
> 
> Anyway, the point is that my road riding is slow and windy, not zooming down the highway at high speed. I guess I will need to see the actual beamshot to decide.
> 
> ...


Those units in the plot are in meters, since we are mostly american users here, figured I'd give some units that are easy to grab the big tape measure and measure out in a driveway or yard. 

The reflector is a completely custom unit, however if there are upgraded reflectors in the future for this particular unit, it's pretty easy to take apart. I am sure you guys will be taking it apart once it comes out of the box anyways. No crazy messy sealants, the silicone lens does the integrated sealing, the only messy part will be the thermal paste.

As for the LED, the die is far different than a typical LED, you can't even get these off digikey, and can't get the chip off of mouser in this particular die configuration. It's hard enough for us to get them because all the OEM automotives are sucking them up.  However you can go look at the pad and see that you could maybe put an XML on there if you wanted, I won't say no if you buy one.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

*Roxim Z4E*

The Roxim engineers from Taiwan are also developing a high power cutoff beam light: 
https://translate.google.de/transla...http://cyclingtime.com/tw/documents/8274.html


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

The new Roxim's do look decent. I'm glad to see more of the industry trending towards that. Still haven't seen any that are focusing on a MTB specific type of beam using the downward firing reflector to control excess light going in the wrong areas, but I hope to see more soon!

We got some good news from our supplier, the updated tool was completed and the new reflectors are on their way soon, as well as all our production samples for the casting, plastics, and silicone parts. Only thing we are waiting on now is the optical grade silicone lens. We are filming for our kickstarter this weekend potentially (if the rain stays away!) and hope to launch soon. Going to offer a deep discount for the very early birds.

Looking forward to sharing more pictures and some more technical specs as the testing starts to get underway. Currently the hold up is securing samples of the Lumileds in the specific color group that we want. So right now any beam pictures are a fairly bright white OSRAM chip, far whiter/bluer than I want, but it's the samples that were on hand so that we could test thermal.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Outbound said:


> Still haven't seen any that are focusing on a MTB specific type of beam using the downward firing reflector to control excess light going in the wrong areas, but I hope to see more soon!


What about the Specialized Flux Expert, Philips ActiveRide and Supernova M99 Pro?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

angerdan said:


> What about the Specialized Flux Expert, Philips ActiveRide and Supernova M99 Pro?


Didn't know the ActiveRide had an off-road mode, news to me! Probably picking it up now to benchmark.  The old Phillips is what turned me onto doing this. I knew I could make it even better. 

Is the Supernova M99 Pro able to be run off batteries? Seems most of their lineup is dynamo only. I do wholeheartedly think they have a fantastic product.

I personally haven't seen or know anyone who has the flux expert. Reviews didn't seem to be too hot. Would definitely want to try and find more specific beam shots. An automotive high beam pattern is a good place to start, but often far too narrow for off-road trail use. After riding around a bunch with the Seca 2500 during a demo day a few weeks ago, I decided to redo the original trail specific reflector to better match their beam pattern. I was really impressed by it. Made me re-evaluate the importance of peak lux.

The Niterider 1400 has a peak lux of 63 at 10m, the Seca 2500 had a peak of 58 at 10m, and some cheaper spot-like lights have peak luxes that can top 250 if they wanted. However I'd pick the massively wide and smooth beam pattern of the Seca over a high intensity spot for off-road use. I went back to the drawing board and redid the reflector to get that width and soften the hotspot intensity. So now this half priced light that can get twice the runtime at 1500 lumens will match the quality of light that comes from the $450 Seca. Takes a lot of engineering, but it's worth it in the end for that confidence on the trail.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

The M99 Pro only needs 24-60V DC, so it's possible. CAN-Bus isn't neccesary for light functions. 
https://supernova-lights.com/en/products/e-bike-lights-45-kmh/m99-pro/

But 32W maximum power need a high capacity battery 
https://www.aukey.com/products/30000mah-power-bank-with-quick-charge-3-0
Laptop power bank K2-laptop power bank-MAXOAK Technology Company

The M99 Mini Pro 25 can be powered by 5-12V, so any powerbank can be used. And it has high beam like the M99 Pro. 
https://supernova-lights.com/en/products/e-bike-lights-25kmh/m99-mini-pro-25/
https://shop.supernova-design.com/shop/product/supernova-usb-a-conection-cable-153?order=plth

Images of the specialized could been found on CPF in the past. 
REVIEW: Specialized Flux Expert Bicycle Headlight - Photo Intensive - Page 2
Specialized Flux Expert/Elite - Page 2


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

angerdan said:


> The M99 Mini Pro 25 can be powered by 5-12V, so any powerbank can be used. And it has high beam like the M99 Pro.
> https://supernova-lights.com/en/products/e-bike-lights-25kmh/m99-mini-pro-25/
> https://shop.supernova-design.com/shop/product/supernova-usb-a-conection-cable-153?order=plth


The M99 mini Pro looks like an interesting lamp. Seems none are available yet but they also going to be quite expensive, not to mention I don't think the price includes a battery.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Yea it's brand new and has been first shown at this year eurobike. 
Award Gallery Product | EUROBIKE Show
Pressebilder | EUROBIKE Show

It could be available in 2018. 
Since it's main/primary market are pedelecs, there's no battery included.


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## incubus (Jan 20, 2004)

Is there a new target date for the KS campaign? Still looking at November?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

incubus said:


> Is there a new target date for the KS campaign? Still looking at November?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We are still targeting mid-November. Production samples of the plastics and silicone showed up yesterday, and the castings should show up today or tomorrow. Been posting a lot more daily updates on our Instagram.

https://www.instagram.com/outboundlighting/

We are hoping to do some filming for the video this weekend if the weather holds out. Then heading to Bentonville, AR for some photoshooting and general enjoyment next weekend before the KS launches.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Will there be a remote version offered at KS campaign?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

angerdan said:


> Will there be a remote version offered at KS campaign?


Not at this time. Focused our efforts on a great LED chip, beam pattern, the reflector, and the longer battery life thanks to the efficient chip and driver.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

angerdan said:


> The second road-beam with 1lx at 110m seems to have problem i mentioned the previous post.
> Much more illuminance from 1-10m in front of the bike than in 50-100m and 20-50m distance.
> An homogen illuminance distribution between close/medium/far distance would be perfect (for me).


Any news about the close area peak lux? 
Is it still so high the eyes won't really adapt to the far distance at night as it seems on the full width beam plot?

When it's time for a remote, this one seems to be a easy to mount and good to reach choice: 
action-led-lights.com/collections/gloworm-lights/products/switch-mount-for-gloworm-lights


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

The amount of light-nerdery in this thread is absolutely incredible. I LOVE IT! haha


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

New reflectors came in and they are fantastic, well worth the cost of the redesign! Just now waiting on the final lenses that'll blend the light together further and soften things up, without losing the peak intensity.









Pretty awesome looking right? The left is the cutoff that now has a nice and sharp defined line, and the right is the trail that has a wide spill of light, but a strong main intensity, while maintaining the even illumination field from the front of the tire to the area you are looking.

















In other news, we are trucking hard to* launch our kickstarter on Nov 21st or 22nd* 

Had a great photoshoot in Bentonville, AR, got to ride some amazing trails, and have been filming and editing for our video the last week and a half. We've decided that the super early backers will get to enjoy more than 30% off the retail price. So keep an eye here.


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## hidperf (Jul 14, 2011)

Outbound said:


> In other news, we are trucking hard to* launch our kickstarter on Nov 21st or 22nd*
> 
> Had a great photoshoot in Bentonville, AR, got to ride some amazing trails, and have been filming and editing for our video the last week and a half. We've decided that the super early backers will get to enjoy more than 30% off the retail price. So keep an eye here.


Will you be offering just the lightheads in the kickstarter or only the complete kits?

I'm thinking I already have my christmas present to myself picked out.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

hidperf said:


> Will you be offering just the lightheads in the kickstarter or only the complete kits?
> 
> I'm thinking I already have my christmas present to myself picked out.


We won't offer the lightheads on their own through the kickstarter page, however for members on here who are interested in the lighthead itself, I'll be extending the same discount and can purchase direct through myself or the website if we have it live by then.

Had a lot of discussions internally about what to do, and the decision was made not to offer it through the KS page just because of the potential confusion it'd cause, no matter how many disclaimers we make that it wouldn't come with a battery pack. So will offer it, just not on the KS page itself. If that makes sense.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Looking forward to seeing some videos & pics!

-Garry


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## hidperf (Jul 14, 2011)

Outbound said:


> We won't offer the lightheads on their own through the kickstarter page, however for members on here who are interested in the lighthead itself, I'll be extending the same discount and can purchase direct through myself or the website if we have it live by then.
> 
> Had a lot of discussions internally about what to do, and the decision was made not to offer it through the KS page just because of the potential confusion it'd cause, no matter how many disclaimers we make that it wouldn't come with a battery pack. So will offer it, just not on the KS page itself. If that makes sense.


Thanks! I'll be looking forward to this.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Very interested to see real life images (or video) of the beam patterns. If I think the road pattern is not wide enough, can I ghetto rig an upper cutoff on the mtb one?


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

This oath to be a great light if everything works as described. Will you be offering both road and trail versions of the light on Kickstarter?


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

MrBucan said:


> This oath to be a great light if everything works as described. Will you be offering both road and trail versions of the light on Kickstarter?


I've been riding the trail light for a few weeks now. And it simply is very different than normal lights. It rides more like a Seca 2500 than it does a 1500 lumen light, because of the beam pattern and design of it. It's really incredible.

From what I understand, there will be Trail Kits, Road Kits, and a Trail&Road Combo kit available on the KS at launch. There will be steep discounts available for the first ones to purchase.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

ZenkiS14 said:


> I've been riding the trail light for a few weeks now. And it simply is very different than normal lights. It rides more like a Seca 2500 than it does a 1500 lumen light, because of the beam pattern and design of it. It's really incredible.


Though I assume what your using is a prototype this is the type of information I'm wanting to hear about these lights. More efficient usage of produced lumens is the performance potential I hoped for from reading about this design. Sounds like it's working pretty good so far. Looking forward to trying the real thing myself.
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> ......Looking forward to trying the real thing myself.


I've been making my own lights for >7 years now. This light just might be the one commercial light I will buy.


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Maybe somewhere in the future you could acompany this light with a rear one? With your knowledge and expertise you could make a lot of people happy and make a good buck all at once. I am realy delighted with the beamshots i saw, especialy of the road light, which is i would assume more dificult to produce with good cutoff. Plenty of floodlights out there usable for the trail, not many for the road.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MrBucan said:


> Maybe somewhere in the future you could acompany this light with a rear one? With your knowledge and expertise you could make a lot of people happy and make a good buck all at once. I am realy delighted with the beamshots i saw, especialy of the road light, which is i would assume more dificult to produce with good cutoff. Plenty of floodlights out there usable for the trail, not many for the road.


I'd love to do just that. Though man oh man is it hard to compete with china on price when it comes to smaller components like that. Just the cost of PCB's with LED's, the battery terminal, and a battery itself would be about the same price as a cheap taillight that anyone could get off amazon. Since I'm all about simplicity, I certainly wouldn't mind just a well designed brake light that looks cool, and does the function well enough. No need for a $110 bluetooth app controled rear tail light IMO.


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

You cant compete with prices but you can with quality, technical solutions and good old common sense addressing some issues. 
I would love in a taillight to looks nice as you say it, needs to be waterproof, have a plethora of usable light paterns for both day and night.
Doesnt needs to be self contained but its a bonus, if its self contained, to be able to replace batery so the light isnt dependant on batery life.
Good mount options are a must for seatpost and backpack a least.
Also enough lumens to be functional, tbh i like realy bright rear lights, maybe find a reflector/optics/other solution with your expertise to make it highly visible but not blinding. Many rear lights on the market have focused beams and few others have flood beams that make a red aura behind bike. To combine both for long distance and side visibility would be ideal.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Yea, an good rearlight would be great. 
Dual Power (internal replacable 18650 + USB in for running from powerbank)
Reflector like the Specialiced Flux Expert Taillight
compatible with cateye mounts (they are availabe everywhere, good and not expensive)

This is how such a project without automobile knowhow did look back in 2010: 
Designing good daytime rear commuter lights


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

We are live on kickstarter now! 30% off the first early bird backers!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/939496402/high-performance-lightweight-long-lasting-bike-lig






Been a crazy journey so far, and hopefully this is just the beginning!


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## multifrag (Nov 14, 2017)

Outbound said:


> We are live on kickstarter now! 30% off the first early bird backers!
> 
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/939496402/high-performance-lightweight-long-lasting-bike-lig
> 
> Been a crazy journey so far, and hopefully this is just the beginning!


How can we pre-order just the lighthead and what would be the price?


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Good question 

I'd like to know about the used LEDs. Which did you choose?
And which color temperature and CRI do they have?


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Can the light produce 2500 lumens? 1500 lumens is insufficient 

Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

"1500 lumens is insufficient " for what? Real OTF 1500Lm should be sufficient for most bicycle applications, specialy if designed to aim those lumens where you really need them.


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

ledoman said:


> "1500 lumens is insufficient " for what? Real OTF 1500Lm should be sufficient for most bicycle applications, specialy if designed to aim those lumens where you really need them.


This is exactly true. The light was tested pretty heavily against other lights on the market. And it blew my Nite Rider Pro 1400 Race out of the water. And of the lights we tested against, it performed more closely with the L&M Seca2500 in terms of useable light on the trail where you actually need it.

The reflector design and lens design really is something totally diffferent. It's not just a big bright spot light.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Yea, especially with the contrast and adaptation limits of the human eye. 
1500lm is a good choice, who wants more can get a Lupine Betty R 6500.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

angerdan said:


> Good question
> 
> I'd like to know about the used LEDs. Which did you choose?
> And which color temperature and CRI do they have?


We were given approval to use the 1x5 Lumiled Altilons, big long process, not just anyone can get these. 

We will be using color bin 3B, not sure of an exact CRI since these chips are not rated like that. My guess would be somewhere in the 80 range since it is not replicating a halogen reference source. These are a really nice white. Despite being listed around 5500K, after the reflector and lens, it feels more like a natural white.

https://www.lumileds.com/uploads/657/DS175-pdf


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

multifrag said:


> How can we pre-order just the lighthead and what would be the price?


Since we've gotten a lot of inquiries (more than I expected honestly), just decided to go ahead and post it as a reward on the Kickstarter. Pricing will be $125+shipping. This will be 30% off retail like the rest of the items.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/939496402/high-performance-lightweight-long-lasting-bike-lig

Uses a DC5521 plug with a weatherproof connector similar to the gloworm, but *I cannot guarantee comparability with whatever battery pack you have, nor runtimes*. I think pretty self explanatory, but gotta get it in writing. 

At the end of the Kickstarter, I will send out a survey asking for exactly which type of light head you would like. If you want both Road & Trail, purchase two light heads and when the survey comes can let me know you want one of each.

Hope this helps!


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## kryten (Mar 8, 2012)

So with the beam pattern and design, would this be sufficient as only light for trail riding eliminating the need for a helmet light?


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

I am realy interested in the road version, but cannot see from the marketing video how long is the light path infront of the bike? I need it for 2 hour road tours in pitch black most of the time, would you say a road version would do the job? Can you maybe shot a video of beam patern in real life and post it on your youtube chanell? Cheers


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

MrBucan said:


> I am realy interested in the road version, but cannot see from the marketing video how long is the light path infront of the bike? I need it for 2 hour road tours in pitch black most of the time, would you say a road version would do the job? Can you maybe shot a video of beam patern in real life and post it on your youtube chanell? Cheers


**speaking for Matt (Outbound Lighting)**

Yes, absolutely. Our light would be 100% sufficient for long night time tours (expected 3hrs of run time on maximum brightness, and honestly for road touring, our 1000 lumens on low will be more than plenty which should yield around 9hrs of run time), that's exactly what we are hoping people use them for. Not just for being seen around town, but hoping that road riders will start doing long tours at night, as these lights produce more light than the average motorcycle, it's absolutely plenty for pitch black riding. You'll really like it.

We are working on YouTube content now, and will be trickling in a few videos a week over the next 30 days. We will certainly do one as you described.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

kryten said:


> So with the beam pattern and design, would this be sufficient as only light for trail riding eliminating the need for a helmet light?


THet deoends mostly on the conditions of the trail. Sharp turns and low branches would have an advantage with an additional helmet light. 
Imagine how wide 110° degree of horizontal beam are.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MrBucan said:


> I am realy interested in the road version, but cannot see from the marketing video how long is the light path infront of the bike? I need it for 2 hour road tours in pitch black most of the time, would you say a road version would do the job? Can you maybe shot a video of beam patern in real life and post it on your youtube chanell? Cheers


It absolutely will be. It actually could pass the standards for a car headlight per FMVSS 108 specs. This is a shot of the beam on the ground per simulations. Keep in mind the line ends where the lux is 1 or above. Most "beam distance" calculations are done to 0.25 lux which I think is ludacris (that's moonlight).










You'll have a solid illuminating path well past 100m, or well past 330 feet! I'll try and get on the katy trail this week to take a pic. We are still running sample boards with OSRAM chips that are only doing about 1100 lumens (everything in the video was this), so waiting on the new updated boards and lenses before pushing too many beam shots. Since I know we only get one real shot at convincing people and any old images floating around won't be too great.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

So is there a technical option included to maybe add an remote control later? 
This would be the third very big advantage over the SPecialized Flux expert  (besides higher lumens and runtime).

Wha i really like are the illuminated buttons: 
Specialized Flux Expert headlight review - Mtbr.com


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

If i understand correctly the info on kickstarter, both light versions have 5 steady modes + 1 flashing mode? At what brightness is flashing mode set up?
Btw i realy like how you arranged intensity in steady modes, not going from highest to half that in the next lower mode which sux on so many other lights.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MrBucan said:


> If i understand correctly the info on kickstarter, both light versions have 5 steady modes + 1 flashing mode? At what brightness is flashing mode set up?


We are still experimenting with it. But will be roughly 400-500 lumens. Will be extremely visible in the daylight, but still get an enormous amount of runtime.

Unfortunately no remote control option yet, not until we start developing the helmet light which will happen if this kickstarter is successful!


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

What's the mAh capacity of the battery in the kits?
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

6400 mAH at 7.4V. 

Been tested and verified by our electrical engineer. LG brand cells.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Picard said:


> Can the light produce 2500 lumens? 1500 lumens is insufficient
> 
> Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk


This is far from the truth. If not enough for you then thats you, not the lights. I can run full out on my trails with 1500 lumens just fine. Ive ridden group rides with a single helmet light set at about 1400 lumens and set a PR unintentionally (we had a curfew set by rangers, had to get clear by that time and I was running way late)

Probably Not enough for black rated trails out in moab or somewhere similar but its more than enough for normal trail riding.

And there is a big difference between a $50-75 1500 lumen light and something like these. Not to mention it isnt just the lumens, its how they are used.

Im really intrigued by these lights, so much that hasnt been done yet instead of just copies, all unique and from guys that ride trails Ive ridden several times myself as well. Really cool to see something truly new and a true brain child of guys that actually get out on the dirt like the rest of us.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

I bit the bullet and ordered both road and trail lights. I was thinking "But what about my helmet light?" I'm interested to hear and know more ASAP!


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

What's the difference if I pay now vs 3 weeks from now? They're not available until March anyway.
I wonder if the road beam would benefit from a head tube mount, so the beam doesn't wobble every time you turn the handlebars.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Outbound said:


> We are still experimenting with it. But will be roughly 400-500 lumens. Will be extremely visible in the daylight, but still get an enormous amount of runtime.
> Unfortunately no remote control option yet, not until we start developing the helmet light which will happen if this kickstarter is successful!


Will the light dim during mode changes or change the brighness instantly? 
I like the effect of short dimming to rech the next mode.

If the light would have a remote, it would be very interesting to me. 
Remote could maybe even upgraded later with wireless plugin module, if the board layout was designed with this option in mind.

Also great would be to customize the usable modes, like to get only 2 different modes without flash.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

beanbag said:


> What's the difference if I pay now vs 3 weeks from now? They're not available until March anyway.
> I wonder if the road beam would benefit from a head tube mount, so the beam doesn't wobble every time you turn the handlebars.


You actually won't get charged until the Kickstarter ends on Dec 22nd and we are a fully funded project! Just by pledging now, you are securing a spot at the 30% discount.

A head tube mount is something that I've been looking into actually! Mounting systems are the next little ecosytem I want to work out. Have already gotten requests for a K-edge compatible mount. So picking one up and hopefully will have something designed to be ready before the lights ship.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> I bit the bullet and ordered both road and trail lights. I was thinking "But what about my helmet light?" I'm interested to hear and know more ASAP!


I've got some ideas for that.  Lots of advanced optical trickery that can also happen with it. Combined with some newer high capacity internal batteries, thermally conductive plastics and more magnesium frames. All dependent on how the kickstarter goes and how much we can allocate funds to design!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

angerdan said:


> If the light would have a remote, it would be very interesting to me.
> Remote could maybe even upgraded later with wireless plugin module, if the board layout was designed with this option in mind.
> 
> Also great would be to customize the usable modes, like to get only 2 different modes without flash.


...I have to agree. I like how these lamps are coming along. Would be super nice if any upgraded MTB versions included a remote control and a nice NW emitter option. Would be nice to see all of these programmable as well.

Nice to read that Outbound is thinking of a helmet lamp as well. Wireless remote would be super nice with a helmet lamp. One thing that always seems to get overlooked when designing helmet lamps is the mounting system. Real important that whatever system is used that it have a platform big enough to be stable and that ( if possible ) be Gopro adaptable or use some other means to allow the lamp to be tilted so it can be aimed. Being able to easily aim and adjust the lamp on the fly is really important.


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

One question poped in my head concerning the included wall charger. Do you have in mind posible european customers and appropriate wall adapter?


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Well guys I can CONFIRM Outbound is one of us.

Mountain Biker and fellow light geek. Except its his life. Engineer for aftermarket automotive led lighting (want a pair of their 6" bars for my CRV, he has them on his truck) Had a hard time keeping up both on the trail and talking about lights.

Got to play with the original prototype. Road version is AWESOME. Trail version is great too (softer cut off was messing with me a bit, i like plenty of light up high when in the trees)

Think we are all critical of lights, he pointed out things that were updated on the revised prototypes I likely never would have noticed.

Thing that jumped out at me, the optical silicone lens. Its literally an insanely clear piece of silicone rubber. Flexible, hard as hell to scratch. Probably take a tree head on and not phase it.

Really great to see someone who is for real and great guy as well! Had no idea he was only a few minutes from my In-laws. First ever night ride for me down here.

Damn phone died right after taking a couple pics and didnt save them (pics of Outbound with the light) but have plenty of gopro footage to come from the ride.

Final thing, reminder this was the original prototype, so tint is cooler (by a good bit) than what is coming.

Heres a clip and pic snagged from video






Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

RAKC, thanks for the good word man! Glad you were able to meet up with Matt tonight! I hope to join you guys next time!


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

We'll be back down around Xmas, so if weather is good and he can get away, we should hit lost valley. 


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

RAKC Ind said:


> We'll be back down around Xmas, so if weather is good and his wife lets him come play, we should hit lost valley.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I'm definitely down for some LV, that's where I taught Matt how to ride a bike


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

You must be the friend that lives and breathes bicycles he was telling me about.

Ridden LV during the day, tonight was my first night ride down here though. LV would be crazy at night.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

RAKC Ind said:


> You must be the friend that lives and breathes bicycles he was telling me about.
> 
> Ridden LV during the day, tonight was my first night ride down here though. LV would be crazy at night.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


haha yea, that's probably me.

LV is great at night. Perfect for it really. Bangert and LV are our only legal options for night rides in STL


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

We only have 2 trails that are allowed anytime, 3 others with permission (I have a permit for 2 of them) and one they let it happen once for our club camping event.

I am pretty anxious now to get the road version of these. Overkill for normal road/commuting duty, but Ragbrai training (and ragbrai) having a light that wont piss ppl off and run for a few hours will be nice versus carrying 2-3 regular lights.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

RAKC Ind said:


> We only have 2 trails that are allowed anytime, 3 others with permission (I have a permit for 2 of them) and one they let it happen once for our club camping event.
> 
> I am pretty anxious now to get the road version of these. Overkill for normal road/commuting duty, but Ragbrai training (and ragbrai) having a light that wont piss ppl off and run for a few hours will be nice versus carrying 2-3 regular lights.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I have a road bike, but it has less than 100 miles on it in 10 months...hahahaha I stick to dirt as much as possible.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I prefer dirt but road miles are relaxing, lots of scenery on the great river path (60+ mile paved path connecting several small towns along the river to the Quad cities). Nothing for miles but no need to ride on actual roads for 95% of it. Once it hits the QC the options are pretty endless rolling around town.

Only paved path (rail trail but paved at least) ive seen that is that long.

Iowa side has the MUT but you ride a lot of shoulders on that route.

I enjoy the creve coeur loop and crusing around that area. Katy Trail sucks on a road bike so I havent ridden it yet.

And for me its training. Weight loss and getting in better shape. Way better than running 

PS, heading to ICC tomorrow with the fat bike, not sure what time exactly though if your free.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

RAKC Ind said:


> Well guys I can CONFIRM Outbound is one of us.
> 
> Mountain Biker and fellow light geek. Except its his life. Engineer for aftermarket automotive led lighting (want a pair of their 6" bars for my CRV, he has them on his truck) Had a hard time keeping up both on the trail and talking about lights.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind words! Was great to ride around and chat with you about lights!(even if we did end up going 1.5 hours over what we told our wives )

Was also great to get some ride time, been an insane few weeks and glad to just get some pedaling in with the lights. Can't wait for the final proto's to be ready to test some more.

Here's a question for all of you, who else should we reach out to, to help expand our kickstarter reach?


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## oldstrath (Nov 13, 2017)

In the UK, you might try road.cc, Cycling News | Bike Reviews | road.cc, who have promoted considerably less good tech than this, and many of whose readers are pretty frustrated with most of the road lights sold in this country.


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## MOBH (Nov 25, 2017)

Long time reader of the forum and first post as interested in these lights: In the uk, in terms of forums, try Cycling UK forum (used to be CTC forum); YACF forum who have loads of long distance, audax, road riders, and commuters; Bike Radar forum; and Cycle Chat forum. 

Road CC is a good choice as they review a lot of lights and promote good kickstarter projects.

Finally, if I wanted to buy a second battery in the future, what would be the approximate cost? I say this as Lumicycle batteries are excellent but very expensive while Dinottes have a smaller capacity but are more reasonably priced.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Thanks for the suggestions! Just reached out to Road.cc

As for the battery, can probably expect an $80-85 price point. 6400 mAH, 7.4V, silicone overmolded, and including the neoprene pouch that acts as an insulator. It's an interesting material, RAKC can vouch for it!

Just updated our rewards tiering system to make it a bit easier to figure out what you are getting:


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## oldstrath (Nov 13, 2017)

Oh, and singletrack, esp. for the trail version


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## MOBH (Nov 25, 2017)

oldstrath said:


> Oh, and singletrack, esp. for the trail version


I agree: they do "Fresh Goods Friday" via e-mail giving updates and tasters of new products.

They also do good and indepth light reviews. The magazine is quirky but very high quality and I love my subscription: some of the photo shoots from foreign rides are stunning.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Yeap, our (at least for me) beloved neoprene pouches. Bit thicker than what I have, softer/grippier texture to hold to frame well.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

RAKC Ind said:


> I prefer dirt but road miles are relaxing, lots of scenery on the great river path (60+ mile paved path connecting several small towns along the river to the Quad cities). Nothing for miles but no need to ride on actual roads for 95% of it. Once it hits the QC the options are pretty endless rolling around town.
> 
> Only paved path (rail trail but paved at least) ive seen that is that long.
> 
> ...


Sorry missed this one, did some moto woods riding this morning, and some dirt jumps in afternoon, maybe next time!


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I don't have patience to wait for a light 3 months from now. It might never go into production 

Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk


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## incubus (Jan 20, 2004)

Picard said:


> I don't have patience to wait for a light 3 months from now. It might never go into production
> 
> Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk


Then don't. Nobody is stopping you from buying something today that has already been produced.

Happy trails!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Picard said:


> I don't have patience to wait for a light 3 months from now. It might never go into production


I was in a dilema, but i decided to pledge for the road light. My thinking is, i get a light with good sturdy construction that will last me a lifetime, good beam patern for a fraction of a price of much more expensive alternatives.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Picard said:


> I don't have patience to wait for a light 3 months from now. It might never go into production
> 
> Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk


Sorry you feel that way! We are most certainly going into production, we've already paid for all the tooling! Everything shown in the video and pictures are production sample parts. The older grey stuff was pure prototype machining.

We gave ourselves a generous delivery date to basically cover ourselves. All the physical parts like the die casting, plastics, silicones, etc. are all ready to go. The PCBA's have about an 8 week lead time. Depending on how the KS goes in the next few weeks, we may just front the money to get that process started so we can deliver much sooner.

We like to underpromise and over deliver. I'd love to start shipping these out at the end of January, but not going to make any hard promises this far out.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Picard said:


> I don't have patience to wait for a light 3 months from now. It might never go into production
> 
> Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk


Waiting almost seem normal to me for a new manufacturer or even a new model from an established one. Had to wait on both the C&B Seen lights I recently ordered and my 2017 Gloworm X2. Further back the only Ituo I got immediately of the 3 I own was my Wiz20. If you need a new light immediately preorders obviously won't work but if you think this is "the light you want" you shouldn't let your lack of patients limit your ability to get it IMO.
Mole


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Outbound said:


> You actually won't get charged until the Kickstarter ends on Dec 22nd and we are a fully funded project! Just by pledging now, you are securing a spot at the 30% discount.
> .


No, what I mean is, why should I pledge now, instead of Dec 21, after there is more info about the beam pattern and etc.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

beanbag said:


> No, what I mean is, why should I pledge now, instead of Dec 21, after there is more info about the beam pattern and etc.


Mostly because may miss out on the first 30% off for a limited number of backers. You can always cancel your pledge if you feel like you don't want it before Dec 22nd. No cancellation fee or anything. Pledges early on help us build momentum, gives us higher ranking on the Kickstarter site, and helps get more pledges when they see others have already gone in on it, and that it's a funded project.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Outbound said:


> Mostly because may miss out on the first 30% off for a limited number of backers.


What limit?


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

beanbag said:


> What limit?


Limited number of available packages, so when one is fully backed you can support the next higher package.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

angerdan said:


> Limited number of available packages, so when one is fully backed you can support the next higher package.


239/250 spots left, ohhhh, I'm so scared to miss out.


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## incubus (Jan 20, 2004)

beanbag said:


> 239/250 spots left, ohhhh, I'm so scared to miss out.


Don't be scared. There's truly nothing to be afraid of.

As a parent, I think I can offer you some sound advice... wait until the deadline nears so that your own parents are less likely to see the charge on their credit card amongst all of the holiday shopping they'll likely be doing for you and the rest of your family around that time.

Not that I'm condoning that action, I'd just really like to see you get the lights that you really want without having to take up space on Santa's (or similar) list this year. That and I don't know that Santa (or similar) has trained his elves to clone Kickstarter items just yet. Those elves are a talented bunch but there's only so much you can glean from webpage images.

Good luck! But really, don't be scared.

p.s. nobody here cares when you choose to fund the project. Sincerely.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Yep! No pressure, just thought I'd give a little more discount to those who are willing to take the plunge early. Every bit helps for us to build more momentum.

We are only about 12 lights away from being fully funded! Going to be starting to build out our marketing campgain.

Any suggestions from you guys on what we should do to help convert more? We are going to be taking more real-world shots this week, perhaps a youtube deep dive into the technical. A full breakdown of the light, etc.

Always open to more suggestions!

Also, be sure to join the group we just made to keep the discussion going on bike lights in general. Not just OL specific stuff.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/398379470603079


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## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

A couple questions came to mind after trying to read and comprehend all the info in this thread.

Why does the power cable come out the side? Lights I've seen usually have them come out the rear or the bottom. Seems like to the side would result in a big loop of cord that can get in the way between battery and light head and possibly more likely to snag or pull on.

Does the current strap mount work with 35mm bars? I have 31.8 and 35 on different bikes. If it doesn't work for both I'd go the gopro mount.

Is there a gopro mount included in the light head only kickstarter? I don't see one listed. If I needed one I assume they'd be available for purchase/ship with the light head.

Is the gopro mount also magnesium? I also noticed it doesn't appear to have the same air scoop of the bar mount. Will this result in degradation of light performance due to higher temps?


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## gipsyman (Nov 18, 2014)

Outbound said:


> Yep! No pressure, just thought I'd give a little more discount to those who are willing to take the plunge early. Every bit helps for us to build more momentum.
> 
> We are only about 12 lights away from being fully funded! Going to be starting to build out our marketing campgain.
> 
> ...


It would be very helpful if you shot some photos at different full frame metered exposure levels so we can determine quality of the beam pattern. Set up in a big clean parking lot or paved area where the surface is smooth and place cones at 20 foot intervals out to 200 hundred feet. Then take photos at the riding position height with the same settings for the road and trail versions. Photos taken on the trail are often not very representative of what a person actually sees unless there are some kind of reference markers or comparison shots with a known bike light. Thanks.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cerpss said:


> Why does the power cable come out the side? Lights I've seen usually have them come out the rear or the bottom. Seems like to the side would result in a big loop of cord that can get in the way between battery and light head and possibly more likely to snag or pull on.


Was a design decision that weighed in things such as the amount of room I had to work with for the connector (no soldered joints in here), and maximizing the surface area for the thermal transfer. The wire has a very thick overmold grommet that you can swing around and not have any concerns about it getting loose. Durability and robustness was a big key in my design decisions



> Does the current strap mount work with 35mm bars? I have 31.8 and 35 on different bikes. If it doesn't work for both I'd go the gopro mount.


Yep! Undersized and oversized bars, works with them all! Thick silicone strap with a variety of hole selections. The material is grippy enough that you don't really even need a he-man strength grip on it.



> Is there a gopro mount included in the light head only kickstarter? I don't see one listed. If I needed one I assume they'd be available for purchase/ship with the light head.


Every light head will come with a gopro adapter



> Is the gopro mount also magnesium? I also noticed it doesn't appear to have the same air scoop of the bar mount. Will this result in degradation of light performance due to higher temps?


The mount is oversized ABS. I'll be mighty impressed if someone breaks it. The lack of air scoop was mostly so that these would fit slimly on a helmet, or in other space-constrained applications. The lack of an air scoop won't result in worse performance. It just may run a few degrees warmer, but the LED is still very much in it's happy zone even when sitting on a desk for an hour.


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## jham65 (Feb 27, 2008)

I really like the idea of Adaptive Mode but if the power is cycled, I assume you reset the adaptive mode "timer." Is that correct? If so, would your recommend leaving the light on during, say a 15 minute a rest stop or turn off the light?

Glad you mentioned that heat was not a problem while sitting on a desk for an hour as that would have been a consideration leaving the light on during a 15 minute break with no airflow.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Outbound said:


> Any suggestions from you guys on what we should do to help convert more? . . . perhaps a youtube deep dive into the technical. A full breakdown of the light, etc.


Yes, I vote to see a full technical overview video of the light - breakdown, demonstration on operation, beamshots shown, actual riding video (with various camera views/angles, but especially "FPV"), mounting - both strap and GoPro, and anything else you want to "show off". Heck, maybe even drop it, toss it around, etc. to show how durable it is. I'm not talking full length movie, but more than just a one to two minute promo video.

-Garry


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## Hunyak (Dec 20, 2014)

I'm trying to join the kickstarter but I'm having trouble signing up with them. My safari browser is giving me fits tonight.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Hunyak said:


> I'm trying to join the kickstarter but I'm having trouble signing up with them. My safari browser is giving me fits tonight.


I appriciate the effort! Hopefully we'll see you on the list soon. 

Got a great group ride in at Bangert Island tonight with about 10 other riders using everything from NiteRider, Seca 1800, Solarstorm, and a myriad of others. Quite a positive reaction about our lights, especially once you stepped into the woods and started moving. One guy had his Seca battery die on him, so lended him one of my prototypes. While I borrowed a NiteRider 1400. Made me feel like I was in the stone ages! 

Now just how to properly capture all the targeted spill light on the sides that makes this beam pattern so powerful, that's the real challenge with photo and video nowadays.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

gipsyman said:


> It would be very helpful if you shot some photos at different full frame metered exposure levels so we can determine quality of the beam pattern. Set up in a big clean parking lot or paved area where the surface is smooth and place cones at 20 foot intervals out to 200 hundred feet. Then take photos at the riding position height with the same settings for the road and trail versions.


Good idea, B&M does this (Sigma and Lupine too).
https://www.bumm.de/en/products/akk...64/produkt/164bla-silber-164bmla-schwarz.html


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## rlb81 (Aug 18, 2008)

I'm in! Can't wait to get my hands on one. I also posted this on my local forum (mtbnj.com) since there are quite a few early AM riders over there. Glad to see you're nearly at your goal.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Not sure which of these lights would work best for me. For the most part my rides consist of a combination of dirt and pavement. Typically I would get a mountain light and run an elliptical optic to widen the beam for bar use and don't care for symmetrical wide angle optics because they waste too much light up in the air + flood the foreground with too much light causing excessive glare. I do like a wide beam but not if it limits throw excessively (BT40s/Taz1500 levels). From reading all the posts it sounds like the reflector and lens have been engineered to address all these issues but maybe engineered specifically to the forest single track I've seen in the videos and might not be as well suited to the more open fast desert trails I ride. 100+ degree beam spread may be more than I need and from looking at the beam simulations posted I'm thinking the added throw of the road beam might be of more benefit to me than the added beam width or the trail version. I understand a cutoff beam is not ideal for trail use but it doesn't look like the trail versions vertical spill is enough to where it wouldn't require a helmet light anyway (I've not seen the lights so correct me if I'm wrong on this). So, road or trail? Obviously I'll make the decision on this but any thoughts would be appreciated.
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> Not sure which of these lights would work best for me..........So, road or trail? Obviously I'll make the decision on this but any thoughts would be appreciated.


I'm having the same quandary. I prefer a narrow beam and am thinking that a road version would suit my preference despite the fact that it will see pretty much zero road or MUP use. Never having used a cut-off or shaped beam before leaves me less sure of which one will suit me best though.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Honestly.... try out the trail.

You might have a narrow beam preference because that's what you are used to. Each time I go out riding with the trail version I walk away smiling because I know it's so vastly different than even the best stuff out there. I'll do a quick ride with the road light, but I do think that's just a bit too tight even for fast downhill stuff. My thoughts are that you'll feel like you see more with less on the trail version, just because of how incredibly *even *it illuminates the FOV as you ride. That's the key.

Problem is that it's so hard to capture on a gopro or camera unless I digitally manipulate it to "match" what our eye sees. So it's hard to paint a convincing picture until you try it in person.

I've even been trying out the trail as a helmet light, and I think it's fantastic enough that I'm going to have an extension cord made that can be purchased so that the battery can sit in a backpack or hip pack. Just would have to use the gopro adapter on the helmet.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

I kind of assume the road light would be fine for off-road use as long as it is complimented by a helmet light?


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Bar lights are better for showing depth though, using it on the helmet might make you see less contours due to the viewing angle?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> I kind of assume the road light would be fine for off-road use as long as it is complimented by a helmet light?


It's a bit more focused and narrower than a typical "tight spot" bike light that most are used to . Since the spill from the LED itself generates that very low light that surrounds the hotspot since rays are going from the chip straight . Unlike a directed reflector which is how the sharp cutoff is generated, and the light refocused. It has a wide spill in front of the bike for tighter turns that a road bike would take on intersections and switchbacks, but on a dark trail would definitely need a helmet light to compliment it.



Wish I Were Riding said:


> Bar lights are better for showing depth though, using it on the helmet might make you see less contours due to the viewing angle?


That's generally the school of thought, helmet mutes shadows that makes it "hard" to see features. Although sometimes I disagree about the use of shadows. During an overcast day you don't really have much shadows or definition, or heavily shaded areas, but depth perception is still there. You are able to gather perception quickly because your whole field of view is illuminated, so can quickly assess things faster than you can even process. With much wider beam patterns that let you take in more of the scene in front of you, the amount of data your eyes have to figure out whats going on is increased, so reaction times are quicker.

I'm looking forward to trying out two trail versions. One on the helmet and one on the bar. That'll be a nuts combo.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Honestly.... try out the trail.
> 
> You might have a narrow beam preference because that's what you are used to. Each time I go out riding with the trail version I walk away smiling because I know it's so vastly different than even the best stuff out there. I'll do a quick ride with the road light, but I do think that's just a bit too tight even for fast downhill stuff. My thoughts are that you'll feel like you see more with less on the trail version, just because of how incredibly *even *it illuminates the FOV as you ride. That's the key.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. Look forward to your road light on the trail impressions. A large part of my apprehension stems from my dislike for my Taz1500 which has a similar beam to the Seca series (which you seem to love). The Taz has a few other short-comings that make it a turd of a light IMO (especially considering how expensive it was) but inadequate for my needs throw is the main one. Not sure if you know the 10 meter lux reading for the production Trail version but if I could get that I'll try to find a place to get a 10 meter test on some known lights as a point of reference for throw.
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> Thanks for the reply. Look forward to your road light on the trail impressions. A large part of my apprehension stems from my dislike for my Taz1500 which has a similar beam to the Seca series (which you seem to love). The Taz has a few other short-comings that make it a turd of a light IMO (especially considering how expensive it was) but inadequate for my needs throw is the main one. Not sure if you know the 10 meter lux reading for the production Trail version but if I could get that I'll try to find a place to get a 10 meter test on some known lights as a point of reference for throw.
> Mole


Simulations are around 65-70 lux peak, but over a massively wide angle (almost 40*). Once we have the production sample boards with the right chip I'll update it, but simulations have basically be spot on with measurements for other work I've done.

The Seca 2500 had a similar peak lux. Funny enough I did get to ride with a Taz1500 while also trying out the Seca during a Lights & Motion demo ride (undercover operations! shhhh). You can see the Taz in the background of this picture actually.


__
http://instagr.am/p/Ba5M2K6Fuj4/

I'll have to mirror your comments. I wasn't nearly as impressed with the Taz as I was with the Seca. The taz was a much tighter beam, and cooler light temperature. I turned it on and rode with it a few hundred yards before just giving it a "meh" and turning the Seca back on. I think it also ran out of battery on ZenkiS14's bike within an hour or hour and a half. He was out there checking the lights out with me. I was using an earlier version of the reflector and it made me go back to the drawing board. Much much happier with the new version!


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## oldstrath (Nov 13, 2017)

Having sometimes from necessity used a road-specific light withcutoff on trails (Ixon IQ2 Luxos, a dynamo light, on forest double track) I'd be reluctant to do so again if avoidable. Fine enough on straight sections, but way too narrow as soon as it gets at all twisty.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Simulations are around 65-70 lux peak, but over a massively wide angle (almost 40*). Once we have the production sample boards with the right chip I'll update it, but simulations have basically be spot on with measurements for other work I've done.
> 
> The Seca 2500 had a similar peak lux.
> 
> I'll have to mirror your comments. I wasn't nearly as impressed with the Taz as I was with the Seca.


This help a lot, Thanks!



> I'll have to mirror your comments. I wasn't nearly as impressed with the Taz as I was with the Seca. The taz was a much tighter beam, and cooler light temperature. I turned it on and rode with it a few hundred yards before just giving it a "meh" and turning the Seca back on.


Turd IMO!! Since I paid for the light I don't feel the need to be diplomatic.
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Gahhhhh we are so close! 96% the way there. Is it going to be someone on here that pushes us over the edge???

https://www.kickstarter.com/project...performance-lightweight-long-lasting-bike-lig


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Outbound said:


> Gahhhhh we are so close! 96% the way there. Is it going to be someone on here that pushes us over the edge???
> 
> https://www.kickstarter.com/project...performance-lightweight-long-lasting-bike-lig


I debated ordering 2 trail packages, with one for my GF, but there wasn't an obvious way to do that on Kickstarter (beyond perhaps paying 2x the amount and trying to send a clarifying email).


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

evasive said:


> I debated ordering 2 trail packages, with one for my GF, but there wasn't an obvious way to do that on Kickstarter (beyond perhaps paying 2x the amount and trying to send a clarifying email).


If you get the $350 option, I'll make a note to put two trails instead of a Road and a Trail. :thumbsup:


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Outbound said:


> If you get the $350 option, I'll make a note to put two trails instead of a Road and a Trail. :thumbsup:


Sorry, I should've clarified- I've already pledged for the trail package. I'm a KS virgin. Can I edit my pledge?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

evasive said:


> Sorry, I should've clarified- I've already pledged for the trail package. I'm a KS virgin. Can I edit my pledge?


Ah I gotcha. Yes you can go back and add more. PM me your name or KS ID and I'll make a note (something I can do on the KS dashboard for a project owner) next your name to make it 2x the trail.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

I didn't see the Gopro mount listed with the lighthead option, does it only come with the kit?
Mole

***I see you liked the picture I posted in the "Bike light junkie group" on Face Book***


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> I didn't see the Gopro mount listed with the lighthead option, does it only come with the kit?
> Mole
> 
> ***I see you liked the picture I posted in the "Bike light junkie group" on Face Book***


Each lighthead will come with the gopro mount and the bar mount. :thumbsup:

And yes! In a few months we'll be adding another one to that collection I bet.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Each lighthead will come with the gopro mount and the bar mount. :thumbsup:


Excellent!



> And yes! In a few months we'll be adding another one to that collection I bet. :cool


That's actually an old picture (2014). I've probably added 15 more lights since then (cause that's what BLJ's do).
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> Excellent!
> 
> That's actually an old picture (2014). I've probably added 15 more lights since then (cause that's what BLJ's do).
> Mole


Sounds like we need an updated photo then!


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Sounds like we need an updated photo then!


Since you started that FB page I think it would be appropriate to wait till I get one of your lights.
Mole


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## Hunyak (Dec 20, 2014)

Outbound said:


> Gahhhhh we are so close! 96% the way there. Is it going to be someone on here that pushes us over the edge???
> 
> https://www.kickstarter.com/project...performance-lightweight-long-lasting-bike-lig


Got some help from Kickstarter support and I signed up last night.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

We did it guys! Tons of thanks to you guys too. According to the tracking, at least 4 of you purchased directly after following a link on these forums. 

What does this mean? It means that we are 100% getting the money from Kickstarter when the campaign ends on Dec 22nd, and that we'll be starting the production run as soon as the last few parts are finalized from our suppliers. Making small tweaks to the materials to get things just right.

Now we hit the afterburners and try and raise more. We are thinking of putting together some stretch goals, perhaps a nice case? Custom buttons colors?

Also will be getting the newest board revision tomorrow, and hopefully can get some more beam photo pictures for you guys! Might be tweaking the MTB reflector one more time.


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Great, nice to hear the goal was reached. Nice case in which to send the lights and accesories would be great😊


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Hey guys, time for an update.

Got an updated board in that is using an alitlon 1x4 emitter. Only one we could get as the 1x5 had a 6 week leadtime. So these pics are with about 1200 lumens still, instead of the full 1500.

Frustrating week, as our lens supplier apparently didn't use the exact material I specified, and sent "transparent" lenses that are not suitable enough to use. Despite the constant reminders to use optical grade. We are working out the issue, and will most definitely be getting the optical grade silicone lens. They are shooting new parts tomorrow. What does this mean for us? That still can't quite get the actual beam patterns that I want to show.

The updated reflectors are fantastic, but we recognized a few other places to improve the beam pattern, you'll see them in these pictures. Light is a tricky thing to get just right, and all the simulations in the world won't always replicate the real world exactly correct. This is why we are testing with production samples, and budgeting re-tooling costs. Almost no way to prototype these effectively without using a production grade poly carbonate part, and production grade aluminization.

















As you can notice, this is BEFORE the mixing lens that will blend it further to the left and right. However have a small dark area that is currently fixed in design and ready for a re-tool. Not very noticeable when riding, but I have promised a nearly perfect beam pattern, and we are going to execute on that regardless.

For the road version, it's incredible to ride with, and the carpet of light shown here is what I expect the trail version to be once we correct it. Since we are paying to re-tool both the reflectors (both are in the same tool) I decided to try and improve the road version as well. You can easily see the dark spots in the upper left and right, I've been able to modify the reflector to fill that in. So that it'll be a very homogeneous smooth fill.









As a reminder, the final lens will blend and stretch the light out more horizontally, but these are pictures of just the reflector alone. I just wanted to get SOME content to you guys, and show you the development process.

The road version, I could confidently ride all night on the low setting, still can see so far away it's redic.

Since our longest lead item is the actual PCB assembly, the re-tool isn't going effect our deadline or anything, our supplier is very fast to work with. I've made a lot of promises on what we are going to deliver, and I'm not going to back down on that to save some money up front.

For those that asked about using a road version for trail riding, it might not actually be that bad. Absolutely will need a helmet light to see the corners, areas that the trail version would throw some light in, but it's still a really strong, homogeneous spread of light that is nice to ride with. You can quickly pull the light up and push it back down when approaching someone.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Did some updates on the KS campaign as we near our halfway mark. Created this graphic to help explain the beam pattern. The light simulated is a typical Niterider bowl optic, and matches my measurements. Obviously this is pretty simplified, and some lights are more diffuse, and some even harsher cutoff's, but was just trying to get the point across about a typical spot beam pattern vs the engineered design.

This also shows what the final beam pattern will be that are being shipped out in Feb/March once the KS is over with. As compared to the photos I posted earlier today.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

The latest beam pattern looks promising!



Outbound said:


> We are thinking of putting together some stretch goals, perhaps a nice case? Custom buttons colors?


For me, only a (wired) remote control would be the hit


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Imho i would rather wait for a good product than get unfinished one in time. Just thinking out loud, i am positive everything will be fine.


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## AlienRFX (Sep 27, 2006)

Any idea how well the light will dissipate heat with 90 degree ambient temps and 80%+ humidity? It can get rather muggy down here in the southeast.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MrBucan said:


> Imho i would rather wait for a good product than get unfinished one in time. Just thinking out loud, i am positive everything will be fine.


Absolutely, won't compromise!



> Any idea how well the light will dissipate heat with 90 degree ambient temps and 80%+ humidity? It can get rather muggy down here in the southeast.


The LED sits right in its happy zone when only one side is thermally connected to the case (unlike both sides as will be in production), sitting on its side and on a desk in a 72*F room for an hour. That means the chip itself has a junction temperature of 185*F, the chip won't get thermally unstable until over 280*F. We will be testing the thermal in an environmental chamber where we can set temperature and humidity, but I don't forsee any issues at all! Especially once you start moving.


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

How did you asembled batery pack? Will i be able to replace batteries inside once their lifetime has ended, what form factor are they?


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## fk78 (Dec 12, 2017)

Vancbiker said:


> I've been making my own lights for >7 years now. This light just might be the one commercial light I will buy.


I did so.

Reading in this forum since, well, I think since I started to follow my interest in bike lights after a 2009 evenings forest ride with a Sigma Triled (equalling no light at all), I now signed in.
I built (and maybe build) my own lights with limited knowledge of electronics (so therefore bought the drivers) and followed others suggestions and experiences. Over the years, wanting to get more and more lumens, I understood that it sounds great, but should not be the route to be followed. But all that could be subjet of another story...

After seeing your light, I didn't even read all discussions about it. But was interested. And ordered a Trail version soon after, with some anticipation when the kits will be ready and shipped. Using your resources you will and should outperform most lights with rotation symmetric optics, at least in terms of distribution. I will dig a bit deeper in all your discussions and also your general technical "support".


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MrBucan said:


> How did you asembled batery pack? Will i be able to replace batteries inside once their lifetime has ended, what form factor are they?


They are 100% silicone overmolded packs, so will not be individually serviceable.



> After seeing your light, I didn't even read all discussions about it. But was interested. And ordered a Trail version soon after, with some anticipation when the kits will be ready and shipped. Using your resources you will and should outperform most lights with rotation symmetric optics, at least in terms of distribution. I will dig a bit deeper in all your discussions and also your general technical "support".


Thank you so much! It really is exactly what I am going for. We all deserve better lighting, and having the resources to be able to bring it to light (haaaa) is why I pursued this farther than any other idea I've ever had. Been quite a journey so far, and hope to continue to provide seriously good lights, at a fair price, with real proper engineering behind them!


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Thats great to hear from the waterproof point of view. How much do you think the bateries will last and estimated price would be on replacables?


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## fk78 (Dec 12, 2017)

Outbound said:


> ...and having the resources to be able to bring it to light ... is why I pursued this farther than any other idea I've ever had. ...hope to continue to provide seriously good lights, at a fair price, with real proper engineering behind them!


You're welcome, took me some days to click the "supprt" button ;-)
I won't go into detailed questions as some are already answered and my English is not the best (being German). Over the years I just followed new LEDs, focused an Cree as those seemed to be the "best". What was quite true, just considering lumen output instead of luminosity, which I now understand more and more. Thing is, being a mechanical engineer (having no clue of optics since high school physics lessons) I was always looking to be able to concentrate on the hardware stuff - buying LED and optics and drivers and battery packs, but arranging them and giving the light quite some styling!

In this respect your light, I don't dare to say, fails just a bit. But that's surely down to the design in general, using an asymmetrical reflector yields a housing of quite uncommon proportions. I will get used to it, though I'm really interested how much better the overall lighting will be compared to my actual light.

Surely, as you and others pointed out, there can not be THE light. Too different the needs and wishes of riders, too different the subjective, the feeling of seeing. My first attempts were with seven Cree XM-L below Ledil LXP lenses (spot and oval). Quite nice, but round and therefore simple housing. I didn't like the throw as the near field (roughly 10m in front of the bike) was just overlit when using all 70W. With that in mind the next step was to test some common reflectors, ending up with a spread arrangement of 2x6 XM-L2. Those gave a good distribution as the lit area was, well 120° wide, while giving a good forward visibility due to the 26mm reflectors. At this point, I was hunting lumens and didn't understand reflector design influence and luminosity at all. A bit testing, deciding, designing, building, that's it. Came out quite nice for the uneducated approach.

Next was aiming for more throw, compromising width. 5 XP-L below 42mm reflectors, evenly spread, are the actual design I ride, which is quite sufficient. Not being able (or willing) to purchase some ray simulation software for designing my own reflector, I got stuck to using some common flashlight hardware.

Now you dig in. Reading all your inputs and those of other members quite deep into the theory (and experience), that's what I'm after. A light with wide, far and even distribution, best topped with the already mentioned high beam. What I came to appreciate is some spill up "in the clouds", as it saved my head time to time from seeing branches which could have been black when using a cut off beam.
There's no perfect solution for everyone...

You mentioned your work for offroad lighting, which seem quite simple - LED array with round lenses or round reflectors, but mainly also focused on kilo lumens ?! Those are just flooders as you call them, or is there any clever engineering ?!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

fk78 said:


> You're welcome, took me some days to click the "supprt" button ;-)
> I won't go into detailed questions as some are already answered and my English is not the best (being German). Over the years I just followed new LEDs, focused an Cree as those seemed to be the "best". What was quite true, just considering lumen output instead of luminosity, which I now understand more and more. Thing is, being a mechanical engineer (having no clue of optics since high school physics lessons) I was always looking to be able to concentrate on the hardware stuff - buying LED and optics and drivers and battery packs, but arranging them and giving the light quite some styling!
> 
> In this respect your light, I don't dare to say, fails just a bit. But that's surely down to the design in general, using an asymmetrical reflector yields a housing of quite uncommon proportions. I will get used to it, though I'm really interested how much better the overall lighting will be compared to my actual light.


I can totally understand that styling is subjective, but I'm pretty proud of this one.  You should have seen how bad some of the early prototypes looked. 



> Now you dig in. Reading all your inputs and those of other members quite deep into the theory (and experience), that's what I'm after. A light with wide, far and even distribution, best topped with the already mentioned high beam. What I came to appreciate is some spill up "in the clouds", as it saved my head time to time from seeing branches which could have been black when using a cut off beam.
> There's no perfect solution for everyone...


You are correct, everyone has their own personal preference for sure, and that's why I hope to expand the product line in the near future. I started out with this light as my own personal "best" light, essentially what would I want to use as a rider, knowing what's potentially possible as an optical design engineer. Hundreds of hours of simulation time, thousands of tweaks, even just as small as changing a reflector target 2 degrees to the left on a select group of faces, as well as a lot of money spent in retooling the reflectors themselves. This is why a lot of companies don't invest in this level of engineering unless they have an inside connection. 

As for the spill light, won't have to worry, there will still be residual spill light, especially once the lens is in place. It won't be a hard sharp cutoff like what is noticed in pictures. As we all know, extremely hard to capture the dynamic range that our eyes can see vs a camera.



> You mentioned your work for offroad lighting, which seem quite simple - LED array with round lenses or round reflectors, but mainly also focused on kilo lumens ?! Those are just flooders as you call them, or is there any clever engineering ?!


Lots of clever engineering still going on in off-road lighting, it's just mostly drowned out by the noise of cheap chinese bars. Check out the Rigid Adapt, and the Feneix AI series. They are using GPS modules to try and do more adaptive type lighting. Insanely expensive though.

Lazer Lighting in the UK is doing a great job of using reflectors to create a well defined beam pattern (though relies on too tight of a spot IMO, they have to use additional reeded lenses to create the width) combined with lightweight housings.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1525367737579198



As for the stuff I'm developing.... well that's still a bit of a secret.  But similar tech as what's going into this bike light. High luminosity chips, magnesium housings, reflectors with a far better defined beam pattern. I come from a rally racing background, drove for years, and took what I knew about high performance rallying and developed a lighting system around that. Translates fairly well over to mountain biking too!


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> everyone has their own personal preference for sure, and that's why I hope to expand the product line in the near future. I started out with this light as my own personal "best" light, essentially what would I want to use as a rider, knowing what's potentially possible as an optical design engineer.


:thumbsup: Always good to see a light designed by someone who is passionate about the final outcome rather than the one size fits all approach for maximum bottom line!
Mole (backer 141)


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> :thumbsup: Always good to see a light designed by someone who is passionate about the final outcome


This is one of the aspects of this light that has me thinking so much about leaving the DIY world for a bit and buying an Outbound.

In pretty much every other case of new lights coming to market I could kind of ignore them as I knew my DIY lights would be brighter, lighter, higher quality, more suited to my beam preference, etc. Much more costly too, but hey it's a fun "hobby". Now Outbound comes along with what appears to be a supremely engineered product that has LED and reflector technology that I can't touch with a DIY build.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

The soft packages look awesome. Fingers crossed that works out.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Forgot to post about that here! Thanks for reminding me, haha.

As he said, we got some custom samples of soft hardcases (oxymoron eh?) that we are thinking we may be able to include if we can hit the $28k goal. Essentially another $5000 that we would need to justify the added costs.

















Super nice feeling, tons of room to store all your other lights that you'd be bringing on a ride.


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

This thread has been a very professional presentation of your product. Thank you.

I am glad you decided to take on the glare issue road riders must deal with as there are too few options for true cutoff beams in the US. I am looking forward to adding your lights to my stable.

While I am sure that 1500lm will be plenty for 95% of my road rides, I do have steep, curvy sections of new asphalt where even my 2500lm Gloworm XS leaves a bit on the table. Do you have any plans to offer higher output version in the future? A good beam pattern is almost the whole battle, but there are places where one just needs to send a boatload of photons downrange.

What was the resolution for KS'ing just the head unit? I thought I saw resolution on that, but did not find it by re-reading the thread.

Thanks for the great work!


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## fk78 (Dec 12, 2017)

Lazer is definitely of the sophisticated type. Just had those simple light bars in mind. Very interesting indeed and giving a hint (besides all the described technical relations) why you opted for magnesium as housing material ;-)

Concerning the price tag I have to admit, when buying instead of building a light I was always considering expensive ones like Lupine, but then opted to build it myself as it's the same price, but I know what get and am fairly "better". If aquiring a manufacturer light as dedicated as yours and the ones to come, I'm quite painless spending hundreds of Euros or Dollars for the best of the breed. Of course there are always limitations and it's great you had in mind the modern tendency to triple check prices, but what is worth the money, well, it's worth the money...


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Flamingtaco said:


> This thread has been a very professional presentation of your product. Thank you.
> 
> I am glad you decided to take on the glare issue road riders must deal with as there are too few options for true cutoff beams in the US. I am looking forward to adding your lights to my stable.
> 
> ...


We ultimately decided to go ahead and offer it as a $125 option on the KS for the lighthead/gopro adapter/bar mount. So far 9 people have taken up on it. I'll be sending out an email blast shortly after as a super-duper reminder that these do not come with a battery pack at all. My co-founder is supremely worried that someone will get it and freak out about it not having a battery, haha.

Do I want to do a super duper lumen version in the future? Hell yea. It'd be great to do an insanity version, it can be done, and I have some great ideas for that. However it would not be a cheap endeavor, and that's why I ultimately decided to introduce myself to the market with a mid-tier option. Since if I came in with a very expensive light, I think would end up like Trail LED, just always being a boutique niche brand that produced very good stuff, just way too expensive for most riders. Have to have a good spread of price points that make sense to have a viable business, and I want to be here for the long run!

And thanks for noticing about my efforts regarding the cutoff. It's what I had noticed as well. Pretty decent options in Europe just because it's actually a legal requirement. I think once people start to see just how bright a 1500 lumen cutoff light is for a bike, they'll completely forget about a typical spot setup.  To be honest, you could ride all night on the 300-400 lumen setting, it's that well concentrated.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

fk78 said:


> Lazer is definitely of the sophisticated type. Just had those simple light bars in mind. Very interesting indeed and giving a hint (besides all the described technical relations) why you opted for magnesium as housing material ;-)
> 
> Concerning the price tag I have to admit, when buying instead of building a light I was always considering expensive ones like Lupine, but then opted to build it myself as it's the same price, but I know what get and am fairly "better". If aquiring a manufacturer light as dedicated as yours and the ones to come, I'm quite painless spending hundreds of Euros or Dollars for the best of the breed. Of course there are always limitations and it's great you had in mind the modern tendency to triple check prices, but what is worth the money, well, it's worth the money...


Your thoughts on the price point is partially why I really decided to pull the trigger and dive all in on this. I have always had small business ideas and wanted to put my product development experience to use. It wasn't until I really started looking very closely at what the high end lights were made of, which components, and just drop in TIR optics or bowl optics that it made me think that I have a real chance of making a splash in this market. A lot of the expensive options in the US, but none using proper optical design to really take full advantage of the latest chips coming out.

I appreciate the thoughts! And appreciate the trust that I hope I've developed here. This stuff isn't quite rocket science, but I think it's important for more people to understand how light works, and that's why I'm so open with the development process so that they can make their own informed decision about what lighting is going to work best for them.

It's an uphill battle fighting all the cheap stuff from overseas with vastly overstated lumens, but I figure if the Europeans can do it, we can eventually get to that point here too. I love seeing lux comparisons and actual beam angle discussions in the euro-based forums and reviews.


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## oldstrath (Nov 13, 2017)

Not that it really bothers me in the UK, but will you look for STVZO certification?


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

oldstrath said:


> Not that it really bothers me in the UK, but will you look for STVZO certification?


From the KickStarter page: "For our European customers, we have developed the Road Edition to meet and exceed StVZO requirements for bicycle lights."


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Outbound said:


> We ultimately decided to go ahead and offer it as a $125 option on the KS for the lighthead/gopro adapter/bar mount. So far 9 people have taken up on it. I'll be sending out an email blast shortly after as a super-duper reminder that these do not come with a battery pack at all. My co-founder is supremely worried that someone will get it and freak out about it not having a battery, haha.
> 
> Do I want to do a super duper lumen version in the future? Hell yea. It'd be great to do an insanity version, it can be done, and I have some great ideas for that. However it would not be a cheap endeavor, and that's why I ultimately decided to introduce myself to the market with a mid-tier option. Since if I came in with a very expensive light, I think would end up like Trail LED, just always being a boutique niche brand that produced very good stuff, just way too expensive for most riders. Have to have a good spread of price points that make sense to have a viable business, and I want to be here for the long run!
> 
> And thanks for noticing about my efforts regarding the cutoff. It's what I had noticed as well. Pretty decent options in Europe just because it's actually a legal requirement. I think once people start to see just how bright a 1500 lumen cutoff light is for a bike, they'll completely forget about a typical spot setup.  To be honest, you could ride all night on the 300-400 lumen setting, it's that well concentrated.


I'll make that 10 shortly, just need another overtime paycheck as I splurged on new winter riding gear this week. Yaaa me! :band: Don't think there will be much to worry about with only 10 possibilities for confusion. I'm impressed you're offering it with numbers that low.

I don't think you'll need to go insane in cost, my 2500lm XS is pretty damn impressive due to the wide hotspot and mild transition to spill. More efficient utilization of that level of output would be a game changer for the 2500 club.

I've got Hella 90mm projectors in my SHO with 2100lm H9's, about 2900lm OTF combined. Those lamps on my bike would be insane, with an output only 400lm more than my Gloworm XS.

I think the high-low you discussed earlier is a good route to take for both a lamp the covers road and trail, and high output. Take your road design, add a second LED in the 1000lm range for the canopy, program the GUI for road and trail modes, that would be a light that ticks a lot of boxes for both road and trail users.


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## link1896 (Jul 13, 2007)

Awesome project. Lovely to see some solid engineering in the mtb lighting segment.

My day job involves a lot of colour science, optics and high brightness light for the cinema industry, it's a passion of mine. I can see a lot of hard work and attention to detail has been invested into the project. Well done. 

I cover about 2000km a year at night, all year round down here in Australia. Currently running about 3200 lumens in a huge flood off the bars in about a +/-45 degree flood with no beam cutoff and no optics, just a housing for cutoff at the 45degree edge, plus some 98% efficient Schott Amiran glass to keep the mud out, and about 2000 lumens off the helmet in a 15degree spot. I've found this most pleasing, reflected light from the flood peaks right where you need it for low speed just in front of the front wheel, but doesn't destroy the long range perception when speeds get high, my reduced field of view when focusing further in front when at speed seems to block the brighter reflected light nearer to me. Maybe I'm not the usual end user? I've yet to want for more light hitting 50-60km on fire trail. 


It's taken many interactions to get to this setup. 

Planned future improvements include playing with an rgb setup, I really don't like the spectrum of any two wavelength white leds, regardless of mixed colour temp, be it on the bike or in my workshop above the mill or lathe. I'd like to have a go at obtaining a sunlight spectrum if i can. 

Second development is a control system for intensity based on speed and slope. Would love it to be fully automatic, with a low on road setting that doesn't annoy motorists.

Good luck with the project! Well done! So many crap lights on the market.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

Ordered the trail kit. It will be my first non-cheap-china light. I think I'll get the Theia next month, for the helmet.

Currently running BT40 on the bars and BT21 w/gloworm spots on the helmet


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## oldstrath (Nov 13, 2017)

mestapho said:


> From the KickStarter page: "For our European customers, we have developed the Road Edition to meet and exceed StVZO requirements for bicycle lights."


Saw that, but meeting requirements is not the same as getting certified.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

oldstrath said:


> Saw that, but meeting requirements is not the same as getting certified.


The plan is to get certified, but in our own self testing both in simulation and in prototype tests, it passes with flying colors. So not saying it's fully certified yet, but it meets and exceeds the requirements.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

oldstrath said:


> Saw that, but meeting requirements is not the same as getting certified.


Keep in mind that these folks are a startup. I don't know what it costs for testing to get StVZO, but where I used to work in the late 90s we had to get several different products tested for CE certification (a European standard similar to what UL listing means for products sold in the US). That cost around $20k per product back then. Probably 50 to 100% more now. If StVZO is anything similar, I can see Outbound putting that off for the time being.


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## oldstrath (Nov 13, 2017)

Vancbiker said:


> Keep in mind that these folks are a startup. I don't know what it costs for testing to get StVZO, but where I used to work in the late 90s we had to get several different products tested for CE certification (a European standard similar to what UL listing means for products sold in the US). That cost around $20k per product back then. Probably 50 to 100% more now. If StVZO is anything similar, I can see Outbound putting that off for the time being.


I agree. I'm not criticising, and certainly not doubting the quality of the light, nor its compliance. Simply that for people I know in Germany, France and similar markets who care enough to look for road specific lights, the K mark matters, and having it will make selling into those markets much easier.


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## Rolekl (Dec 1, 2017)

I would love to see some beam comparisons, preferably before Dec 22, with the only real alternative I have seen out there, the Lupine SL A. And, as a bonus, comparisons with e g B&M Ixon IQ Premium and similar lamps that people are running today.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Just poking my head in here before the Dec22 deadline to check if there are any updated beamshots and etc. for the road version. Even though it seems that a lot of light is being thrown far down the road in front, I sure hope (hint hint) that there is a moderate amount of light thrown to the sides a la fog lights.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

oldstrath said:


> I agree. I'm not criticising, and certainly not doubting the quality of the light, nor its compliance. Simply that for people I know in Germany, France and similar markets who care enough to look for road specific lights, the K mark matters, and having it will make selling into those markets much easier.


Average buyers in germany care first for money, then for the amount of light and at least they are concerned with regulations. 
People are not that different, but they know more about certified lights. Because there are more known options. 
Also all high end StVZO light manufacturers (Lupine, Supernova) are located in germany and many of the non high end manufacturers too (Trelock, B&M, Büchel, Sigma, Out-Led, Osram, SON).


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## fk78 (Dec 12, 2017)

angerdan said:


> Average buyers in germany care first for money...


Well, I will not disagree that I also have an eye on costs. But considering my buying mentality I'd assume not everybody is money-all-object minded...


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

As for updated beam patterns, not much over what I had posted earlier. Our lens supplier has not pulled through as quickly as I hoped. We were planning on having at least 20 samples to send out during the KS to influencers and reviewers to help get more third party thoughts out there. 

That combined with the retooling of the trail version means that we won't have the latest updated shots before the KS ends. However our simulations have been very accurate so far, and what is presented on the KS is what we will deliver without a doubt. 

After the KS ends we will open up pre-ordering on our website.

I think RAKC can confirm about the amount light being thrown to the side on both the road and trail versions, as he has seen what it is like in person which is far easier to evaluate than through pictures.


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Outbound said:


> We ultimately decided to go ahead and offer it as a $125 option on the KS for the lighthead/gopro adapter/bar mount. So far 9 people have taken up on it. I'll be sending out an email blast shortly after as a super-duper reminder that these do not come with a battery pack at all. My co-founder is supremely worried that someone will get it and freak out about it not having a battery, haha.


Not to throw another wrench into the mix... I notice the list of items for the light head only does not mention the gopro adaptor. That's going to be an essential part for me, and anyone that wants to mount these on the helmet. Was this left out by mistake, and if not, how do we acquire the gopro adaptor when it's not included?


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

It's in your quote, Outbound posted in post 207 that the $125 KS lighthead only option does include the GoPro adapter.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Vancbiker said:


> Outbound posted in post 207 that the $125 KS lighthead only does include the GoPro adapter.


Correct, will include the bar mount and the gopro adapter.


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## mrradlos (Sep 3, 2010)

Outbound these are very nice, well thought lights!
The way you use the wind to cool the housing and the kind of reflector you designed is what a lot of do-it-yourself builders probably always dreamed of - I did anyway!
Here are my thoughts: 1500 lumens must be by far enough for the road version! I would have liked some (yellow) light to be seen from the side for the road version. Next challenge for you would of course be to offer a version of you light that works with a dynamo.
For the trail version: Come on - your light weighs about 100 g and is so well cooled, I bet it would not have any problems with double the heat! I don't know the LEDs you are going to use, but if they are similar to the ones from cree (like the new XD16) then you can double the max recommended power pushed through them! :madmax:
For the helmet lamp to come: for me it has to be very light (Lupino Piko is 55g, 1800 lumens) that's to beat.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

mrradlos said:


> Outbound these are very nice, well thought lights!
> The way you use the wind to cool the housing and the kind of reflector you designed is what a lot of do-it-yourself builders probably always dreamed of - I did anyway!
> Here are my thoughts: 1500 lumens must be by far enough for the road version! I would have liked some (yellow) light to be seen from the side for the road version. Next challenge for you would of course be to offer a version of you light that works with a dynamo.
> For the trail version: Come on - your light weighs about 100 g and is so well cooled, I bet it would not have any problems with double the heat! I don't know the LEDs you are going to use, but if they are similar to the ones from cree (like the new XD16) then you can double the max recommended power pushed through them! :madmax:
> For the helmet lamp to come: for me it has to be very light (Lupino Piko is 55g, 1800 lumens) that's to beat.


Thanks for the comments!  All ideas are gladly welcomed once we start developing the next light after delivery of the Focal Series.

Regarding the lumens, we will see what we can push, that's all part of the testing, just running off the datasheets at the moment. 

Far better to underpromise and over-deliver I believe. However there is also some tradeoffs. More lumens doesn't always mean that you'll see that much better, but it'll negatively affect the battery life. If there is an almost imperciveable difference between 1800-2000 lumens vs 1500 due to the huge field of vision, but you lose 45-60 minutes of battery life... is it really worth it? All tradeoffs that we'll be factoring in as we continue testing and refining the software.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

mrradlos said:


> ............or the helmet lamp to come: for me it has to be very light (Lupino Piko is 55g, 1800 lumens) that's to beat.


With a optimal reflector, I'd guess that 1000-1200 lumen light would provide a more usable beam than a Piko and it's optic based symmetric circular beam.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Vancbiker said:


> With a optimal reflector, I'd guess that 1000-1200 lumen light would provide a more usable beam than a Piko and it's optic based symmetric circular beam.


The challenge with a helmet light with an internal battery is indeed going to be the reflector size. However I got some tricks up my sleeve regarding that. 

-------------

As for Kickstarter stuff, we are 3 days away from completing! Thursday night around 7:30 CST we'll be doing a live Q&A and tech breakdown of the light on kickstarter live. Good chance to meet us (myself and Kyle, ZenkiS14) and find out more about the lights. Feel free to submit any questions you want us to answer, and subscribe to tune in when we go live!

https://live.kickstarter.com/broadcast/22209/overview


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Outbound said:


> The challenge with a helmet light with an internal battery is indeed going to be the reflector size. However I got some tricks up my sleeve regarding that.


Personally, a helmet light with an internal battery would be a miss. Unless you have something really tricky up your sleeve, it would be too heavy for high output, and long runtime.

Things it should be IMHO.

Small, 
lightweight, 
able to be mounted low and forward on the helmet, 
wireless remote or helmet mounted remote, 
power cable options for jersey/jacket/camelback battery placement or back of helmet battery placement, 
2 cell and 4 cell options.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Problem I see with trying to go insanely tiny and get bigger lumens there is always trade offs. Run hot and lack of run time are the 2 that stand out most. Makes for a "limit". Pushing 1800 lumens on a 2 cell battery pack (or 900+ on a single self contained), useable run time is cut down/lack of constant actual output.

Not a problem for those that actually use lower modes or do shorter rides/carry spare batteries. Heat is the big one that gets my attention on small lights. Either keep stepping down or get hot as hell prior to stepping down.

With rapidly advancing LED tech though, its becoming less and less of a problem. Simply need battery tech to catch up so more constant voltage is maintained. Lithium batteries having voltages so close to a lights requirements is keeping a choke chain on what bike lights and flash lights can do.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Rolekl (Dec 1, 2017)

So just to be sure before ordering, the DC5521 is as I understand it the "normal" old connector used on all these chinese lights and battery packs available from gearbest et al? And those 7.4V 2/4/6/8-cell 18650-packs would work with the light head?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Rolekl said:


> So just to be sure before ordering, the DC5521 is as I understand it the "normal" old connector used on all these chinese lights and battery packs available from gearbest et al? And those 7.4V 2/4/6/8-cell 18650-packs would work with the light head?


That is correct. HOWEVER I cannot guarantee it will have the waterproof feature that the supplied battery pack would provide, since I have no way of knowing exactly which style connector was used, as there are several DC5521 versions. Such as the screw together, the snap together, or just no connection at all, and relying on friction to hold it together.


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## Rolekl (Dec 1, 2017)

Mine are all the snap together version. What's the one on the lamp?


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Its not just chinese lamps, actually a fair majority of mid range lights from magicshine to gloworm use them. Not a bad design but like anything, you pay for quality, even on connectors.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Outbound said:


> Correct, will include the bar mount and the gopro adapter.


Thanks for the confirmation. Put in my pledge, you now have 12 signed up for lighthead only. Looks like you've got a decent last minute run going on.

Now, how do you get another sale from me?

1) Programmable level for each power setting.
2) Two level mode (an important feature for road)
3) Remote switch
3) Higher output offering (some of us compete with HID/LED automotive headlamps and LED parking lot lamps)
4) 3 second, short pulse strobe for daytime, accessible only via a special mode. so that snot doesn't interrupt a night ride, ever.

Question: Do you have a thermal simulation for the lamp on the go-pro mount? I suspect not having the 'scoop' isn't a significant impact on thermal transfer... there should be plenty of turbulence without it.

Also, the simulation indicates almost no heat coming from the top of the unit. Is the LED attached to the lower part of the housing? It the upper finned piece insulated from the lower rear finned piece?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Flamingtaco said:


> Thanks for the confirmation. Put in my pledge, you now have 12 signed up for lighthead only. Looks like you've got a decent last minute run going on.
> 
> Now, how do you get another sale from me?
> 
> ...


Without the scoop, it was a simulated 10-20*F drop, but that's also assuming it's sitting in free air, not against a helmet or something similar.

There is a lot of heat coming off the top, however what the simulation was showing was lines coming from a certain section around the lower portion of the light. Wanted to show off what the air scoop was doing in terms of pushing air up and into the deep fins. When in motion the heat is wicked away so quickly from the top because it is getting hit head on that it's hard to see in simulation plots that look interesting.

Regarding your other points:
1. Potentially in the future for sure
2. Guessing you mean high/low beam? 
3. Once we have a helmet light developed, that's when I want to introduce a remote switch to control an ecosystem rather than simply moving the button for a single light 15" to the left or the right.
4. There will be a pulse/strobe for DRL stuff that is only accesible from when the light is off. Plan is that from the OFF state, have to triple tap the light to enter a DRL/flashing mode. No way did I want flashing to be selected while cycling through. HATE that.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Rolekl said:


> Mine are all the snap together version. What's the one on the lamp?


It's the snap together version. So may work out. I just can't guarantee it.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Without the scoop, it was a simulated 10-20*F drop, but that's also assuming it's sitting in free air, not against a helmet or something similar.
> 
> .


FYI, was doing a fan cooled case temp. test on a BT21 (pictured) a couple of yrs. ago and decided to move the fan from the front of the light to the rear where it would blow directly over the cooling fins behind the emitters. Resulted in a similar approx. 20 degree drop in case temp.
Mole


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## MOBH (Nov 25, 2017)

I second the suggestion for a dynamo version.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

You guys do realize a dynamo cant produce near the wattage required for a light like this. Somewhere around half or less depending on the hub and thats at fairly decent speeds.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## mrradlos (Sep 3, 2010)

Outbound said:


> The challenge with a helmet light with an internal battery is indeed going to be the reflector size. However I got some tricks up my sleeve regarding that.


For me a helmet light has to be lighter than 50g - I ended up putting the single battery of this little helmet light in my backpack. By the way it is putting out more than 2000 lumens on high, but don't use that setting for long. High settings are only for fast downhill singletracks, which usually dont't take more than 10 minutes for me...

Dynamo lights are quiet tricky, you have to make use of all the voltage you get ...


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Outbound said:


> 2. Guessing you mean high/low beam?


I'm sure with "two levels" he means two brightness levels to switch between directly. 
Important feature for Road use, like to switch between daytime running lamp and distance light on cars.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

RAKC Ind said:


> You guys do realize a dynamo cant produce near the wattage required for a light like this. Somewhere around half or less depending on the hub and thats at fairly decent speeds.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


no kidding. when you talk dynamo, now you are talking human power to electric power, and reality will set in pretty quick. high power led's will make you wish you had those Olympic sprinter quads, lungs, and heart you've always wanted. dynamo is for low power operation. or you will get wrecked trying to power it


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

127.0.0.1 said:


> no kidding. when you talk dynamo, now you are talking human power to electric power, and reality will set in pretty quick. high power led's will make you wish you had those Olympic sprinter quads, lungs, and heart you've always wanted. dynamo is for low power operation. or you will get wrecked trying to power it


What about a built in speaker that just yells "GIT GOOD! GIT GOODDDD" if voltage starts dropping.


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

Outbound said:


> What about a built in speaker that just yells "GIT GOOD! GIT GOODDDD" if voltage starts dropping.


Best idea in this post yet! lol


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Outbound said:


> Without the scoop, it was a simulated 10-20*F drop, but that's also assuming it's sitting in free air, not against a helmet or something similar..


Was there a thermal transfer loss due to the bar inhibiting air flow?



Outbound said:


> There is a lot of heat coming off the top, however what the simulation was showing was lines coming from a certain section around the lower portion of the light. Wanted to show off what the air scoop was doing in terms of pushing air up and into the deep fins. When in motion the heat is wicked away so quickly from the top because it is getting hit head on that it's hard to see in simulation plots that look interesting.


 :thumbsup:



Outbound said:


> 2. Guessing you mean high/low beam?


Not if that's the sole output variance.

It's always a balancing act between battery life and adequate lighting for any condition, we will always need multiple power settings. An ideal dipped beam should employ a high and low power setting alternated with a single short press, and include a very low (moonbeam) setting via a single long press. The light should return to where is was in high/low mode with a single short press, or shut off if the long press is held very long (3-4s). Programmable level for the high/low power settings. A second mode that permits walking the output up and down 10% at a time in either direction seems to work well on the trail, where we tend to set and forget at the trailhead, but at time needs to make slight adjustments during the ride.

I don't feel a traditional passenger vehicle style high beam *pattern* will be as useful for the lower speeds of bikes. In a passenger vehicle we call on the high beam to see much further down the road during much higher speeds, and ignore much of what the dipped beam illuminates. On a bike, we must retain close visibility to avoid objects that powered cages simply roll over (like the 3x5 pothole that I never spot in my truck due to the road surface being extensively cracked, but which can toss me from the bike), and don't need to extend our vision like we do in a vehicle that's can hit 80mph.

I think a better application would be a 'multi-use' model that employs a road cutoff beam with a 'high beam' that fills in what is missing from the trail model. I'm betting this can be done while also extending the vision a bit. One lamp to rule them all! Compromises be damned.

Whatever the outcome, if we end up with a high/low beam unit of any type, having separate programmable levels for each output setting is important. If the roadie that wants to preserve their night vision when illuminating the high beam, the downhiller that wants a blast of light from high beam regardless of the dipped beam setting, and the commuter that wants a balanced output from both beams can use the same lamp, I think you will be hitting some important checkboxes for a lot of users.


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## MOBH (Nov 25, 2017)

Just ordered the road version: looking forward to an optimised cut off beam similar to the Philips Saferide 80 but updated and improved and, of course, with much superior run time.

Roll on March 2018.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Flamingtaco said:


> Was there a thermal transfer loss due to the bar inhibiting air flow?
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


I think when we say "high beam" in the bike sense, not literally meaning a high beam like a car where the shutter is dropped or another bulb comes on and creates an entirely different pattern that takes away the width and foreground. I wouldn't be copying the high beam pattern from FMVS108 verbatim. There is far more foreground in these lights then there are on a typical vehicle headlight.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MOBH said:


> Just ordered the road version: looking forward to an optimised cut off beam similar to the Philips Saferide 80 but updated and improved and, of course, with much superior run time.
> 
> Roll on March 2018.


Thanks! I know you'll love it, especially the road version compared to the ole SafeRide. That light was actually one of the few where I was impressed that someone else "got it" but they still had pretty small reflectors given the actual size of the unit. Seemed like a lot of scattering too in photos I saw.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Okay guys, we are nearing the last 24 hours! We are going to be doing a live Q&A session and showing off the technical aspects of the light starting around 7:30pm CST. Feel free to post some questions, or tune in and we'll try our best to answer as many. This is my chance to explain things without having to just type words out, haha.

https://www.kickstarter.com/project...performance-lightweight-long-lasting-bike-lig


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

Thanks for the Q&A. Can’t wait to try the light!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

mestapho said:


> Thanks for the Q&A. Can't wait to try the light!


Thank you! I honestly didn't think it'd go on that long. I tend to ramble a bit when it comes to talking lighting. I think RAKC can also attest to that, haha. I think we stood around my truck for the better part of an hour.


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## MOBH (Nov 25, 2017)

I like the look of the light case (shown on the live feed) - good idea for protecting the lights.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

In a few hours I'm going to watch the replay. Thanks for making that available.

One super stupid question about the whole KS thing... Why t-shirts ONLY for people who don't buy lights? LOL


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Outbound said:


> Thank you! I honestly didn't think it'd go on that long. I tend to ramble a bit when it comes to talking lighting. I think RAKC can also attest to that, haha. I think we stood around my truck for the better part of an hour.


I know we both got back to our wives A LOT later than we told them LOL.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> In a few hours I'm going to watch the replay. Thanks for making that available.
> 
> One super stupid question about the whole KS thing... Why t-shirts ONLY for people who don't buy lights? LOL


If you want to add a t-shirt just add $30 to your pledge and I'll make a note of it.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

We did it guys! Smashed our goal of $15,000 and nearly raised $30,000 in the process.

This is the update I posted for our backers.



> Woohoo! Nearly 200% of our original goal of $15,000! But now the real fun part starts. We will be keeping everyone informed of our progress. Starting right now, it will be 2 weeks or so before we receive the funds from Kickstarter, and then we can start making first payments to our suppliers.
> 
> Some of the longer lead items that will be paid for first include the battery packs and the cases, because those are very large items that will spend a 3 week journey on a cargo ship before being loaded on a truck to head to St. Louis.
> 
> ...


---------------------------

We will be opening the website for pre-orders after Xmas at a 15% discount, and of course will be keeping you guys up to date on all the production status and more testing/validating we do.

Merry Christmas and happy holidays!


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Congratulations! I'm not the one of the backers, but I've found your project very interesting and gladly read all this stuff. Keep good work, one of the best project we have seen here at MTBR, imho.


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Hello Outbound! Very interesting indeed!

Is there a site with some crucial data facts? (this thread is way too long, I only skimmed thru it).

I mean I don't understand your "wall shot" colored images. What's max, min, is colormap log/linear? (I'd also include the colorbar, btw). What was lumen output (and may be, electrical wattage) for the shot? Things like this -- fully presented. If there's such a site - could you give a link please (and include it in OP). If no, please, consider creating it.

You probably know about Olaf Schultz database? (it's especially known among German bikers) möglichst umfassende Auswertung von Scheinwerfern . May be use his colormap (and other conventions) for easier comparison of wall shots?

Thank you.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

abvgdee said:


> Hello Outbound! Very interesting indeed!
> 
> Is there a site with some crucial data facts? (this thread is way too long, I only skimmed thru it).
> 
> ...


Most of the crucial facts are buried in here, but I am currently building out our actual website that will host a fair amount of the information. I hired an outside company to develop it, and now I am going back through and updating pictures, text, information, etc. So please excuse the mess and sometimes messy language if you are checking it out as of right now, haha.

www.outboundlighting.com

Regarding the wall shots, it's a mix of log and linear, mostly because OPTIS tends to work in linear and lucidshape works with log typically. I prefer log since that actually mimics more of what the human eye sees.

However because these are simply simulations, I don't like to post the numbers as many people will take it and run with it thinking that's the true real-world output. Optics are a tricky thing, especially manufacturing, and I don't like to present hard numbers like min/max until we have tested real-world parts and done real world measurements. The simulated world is great for design, not always great for accurate measurement.

This is especially true as the product develops, I will probably have to go back and edit the main post once we are closer to release because some of the information will be outdated.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

I just did a quick look at the site. Why no alternate views of the light heads themselves? What is the black thing on the light in those photos? Thanks.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> I just did a quick look at the site. Why no alternate views of the light heads themselves? What is the black thing on the light in those photos? Thanks.


All still very much a work in progress. Will be adding more photos and details as I get them uploaded.  The black thing I think you are referring to is the bar mount strap.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Oh wow, good to know. Hate to say it, but it makes them considerably less sleek looking like that. I'm looking forward to getting mine.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> Oh wow, good to know. Hate to say it, but it makes them considerably less sleek looking like that. I'm looking forward to getting mine.


Probably doesn't help those pictures were taken on a 25mm piece of round stock, haha.


__
http://instagr.am/p/Bb-B20ilHQU/

There are a bunch of pictures of the products mounted up on a typical bike bar on our instagram page.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> .....Hate to say it, but it makes them considerably less sleek looking like that.


Use it with the GoPro mounting feature and you will get the sleek look.


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## xcandrew (Dec 30, 2007)

How is the "carpet of light" affected when head mounted? I won't be bar mounting because I almost never ride in the dark. When it's dark where I live, I cross country ski and run, roughly at about mountain bike speeds, at least at times.

I use a Yinding (after my Gemini Duo died) on a headstrap, and am generally satisfied, but would like to see what a better beam pattern would do. I'd be interested in a trail beam comparison between your trail light and a Yinding or Gemini Duo when used on the head.

The 100g weight of your lighthead is maybe 30 g heavier than the Duo or Yinding, but probably still fine for headmount use when running with a decent headstrap, and possibly worth the weight compromise if the beam quality is much superior. I use the Yinding/Duo with a 2-cell battery mounted on the back of the headstrap, though I have also used extension cables to put the battery in a pocket in the past (for heavier 4-cells or to keep the battery warm).


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

The answer is quite simple actually.

There is actually many lights including many flashlights that have very similar/same beam pattern as the duo/yinding. All use 20mm round optic. You have slight variations but comes down to 3 beam types. Spot (for throw to see at a distance), elliptical spot (wide angle without wasting light spread vertically) or flood (no real spot, cant see very far but lights up a big area).

A spot optic can of course have more or less spill (light spread outside of the focused beam) depending on optic design.

Head or bar mounted does not change this at all. The change is in the angle in which the beam is pointed. You determine final position by how much you tilt the light. 

Outbound has basically designed it to where spill is all but eliminated including upwards. Keeping light forward and downward at a controlled width as well.

Being up on your head the difference would be the exact same as any other light, you end up leaving it pointed straight to slightly down depending on how much light you want right in front of you. Play around with your light waste level then head level and see how shadows and details look different. Same effect with Outbound.

One major point is elevation changes. Where a gain if enough will block the beam at waste level, that same elevation gain that is just enough to block a light on the bars, head mounted it would allow you to see over it.


TL;DR

Nothing else is going to change. Throw, beam width and pattern all remain the exact same. Just perspective changes. Like looking through the trail on your knees versus standing. Your eyes can see the same things depending on what is blocking your view if anything.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## xcandrew (Dec 30, 2007)

That doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. Matt/Outbound was recommending bar mount because head/helmet mounting might affect the "carpet of light" that evenly lights the ground from the foreground to the usable distance of the light. Meaning that if mounted higher up, the downward light or spill up close that lights your foreground is weaker.

That foreground light is important, so I'm interested in what his light actually looks like when head mounted to see if that foreground lighting is still acceptable compared to the standard optic in the Duo/Yinding. I obviously don't want to have to angle the light down too much and burn a hole in the ground and my eyes.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

It would be more than acceptable.

Trying to help as basically over thinking it. A slight downward tilt would take care of it if any tilt was need. No way would you need to "burn a hole". These have far more foreground light that a dual emitter MTB light by far.

If you matched angles between this and a yinding, you would have more foreground light, not less. If your after more foreground light directly where your head is pointing as well as light out ahead of you, this would make your day. I have demoed these (I know Matt personally) and I have 2 Yindings and had a Duo (sold it to a friend a while back). My son uses my black yinding.

Not sure if Matt has one of them, too bad you didnt ask this a couple days ago. I was in St Louis and had lights with me, could have taken pics.

But in the next couple weeks, good luck getting anyone to stand outside to take pics, ITS DAMN COLD HERE AND DOWN WHERE HE IS. I couldnt get him out for a ride (I got a couple before the cold front gave us sub zero temps there and now -18 here at home)

But what your after for your purpose, more foreground light without pointing at the ground, IMHO this is for you.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

xcandrew said:


> How is the "carpet of light" affected when head mounted? I won't be bar mounting because I almost never ride in the dark. When it's dark where I live, I cross country ski and run, roughly at about mountain bike speeds, at least at times.
> 
> I use a Yinding (after my Gemini Duo died) on a headstrap, and am generally satisfied, but would like to see what a better beam pattern would do. I'd be interested in a trail beam comparison between your trail light and a Yinding or Gemini Duo when used on the head....


My thoughts; Assuming you are thinking of buying the mountain bike version; I would think it would work. Riding in snow you don't need a lot of light directly aimed in front of you. With the lamp mounted on the head I'm sure it will change the dynamic of the beam pattern. With that in mind you can't really know how it will look ( head mounted in snow ) until you actual try one out. Whether this lamp will improve how well you can see in the snow while skiing is anyone's guess.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

xcandrew said:


> That doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. Matt/Outbound was recommending bar mount because head/helmet mounting might affect the "carpet of light" that evenly lights the ground from the foreground to the usable distance of the light. Meaning that if mounted higher up, the downward light or spill up close that lights your foreground is weaker.
> 
> That foreground light is important, so I'm interested in what his light actually looks like when head mounted to see if that foreground lighting is still acceptable compared to the standard optic in the Duo/Yinding. I obviously don't want to have to angle the light down too much and burn a hole in the ground and my eyes.


I have been at least walking around in the backyard with the trail version up above my head as RAKC said, too effin' cold for me to get on a bike, and I've found it pretty awesome actually. The latest reflectors show up Thursday, and will try and get some shots. The only downside I'd find with a helmet mounted is similar to any other light. In dusty/foggy conditions it's going to be tough to see.

However it did get me excited for a bar mount of the trail combined with a helmet mount trail, would be the best light setup I've ever experienced.

Only pics I'll be able to really get once it gets warmer are wall shots or backyard pictures since once the trails thaw here after a deep freeze, they get un-rideable and can easily ruin them. I don't wanna be "that guy".


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Outbound said:


> ...However it did get me excited for a bar mount of the trail combined with a helmet mount trail, would be the best light setup I've ever experienced...


Interesting idea. In keeping with your last statement; What was the best light setup for Mountain biking that you've ever used ? ( not included yours of course )

Anyway, looking forward to the final versions. I know you've already been told this by others but for mountain biking at night there is heavy bias on this forum for using NW emitters. My advise is to offer the MTB version with a good 4700-5000K neutral emitter array. If not possible this year then perhaps next year.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cat-man-do said:


> Interesting idea. In keeping with your last statement; What was the best light setup for Mountain biking that you've ever used ? ( not included yours of course )
> 
> Anyway, looking forward to the final versions. I know you've already been told this by others but for mountain biking at night there is heavy bias on this forum for using NW emitters. My advise is to offer the MTB version with a good 4700-5000K neutral emitter array. If not possible this year then perhaps next year.


Seca 2500 Race is what forced me to go back to the drawing board and beat that. Excellent smooth wide beam of light that cleanly created a super wide FOV. Proved to me what I had theorized, that didn't need more peak distance to feel more comfortable riding on a trail, even on the super fast descents, more width (talking a LOT more than a typical spot pattern) created a much more enjoyable riding session. Decreasing the contrast ratio that your eye has to deal with makes a HUGE difference.

However would the Seca be great for the road? Where you have a lot of ambient light from both cars, streetlights, and even the sky? Nope. For the road you definitely want a much stronger punch to overcome the ambient. But deep in the woods where most MTB'ing is happening? You really don't need distance as much as one thinks they do when comparing spot beam patterns.

Regarding the color temperature. Until LED manufactures can make warmer tints in the package sizes I am using, will be stuck with 5000k-ish emitters. We are using the warmest Altilon chips available, which ranges between 5100-5500K.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Regarding the color temperature. Until LED manufactures can make warmer tints in the package sizes I am using, will be stuck with 5000k-ish emitters. We are using the warmest Altilon chips available, which ranges between 5100-5500K.


How does this tint range match the C&B Seen 1900 light you got a while back? While I'm interested in hearing how your using a Trail version of you light helmet mounted for the desert trails I ride lots of throw is useful and have been considering using the C&B Seen 1900 helmet mounted (since it's tint is in-between most of my cool white and neutral white lights) with the Outbound trail on the bars.
Mole


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Why's the batter cable put on the right side of the lighthead?
Will there be a future version with centered cable?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

angerdan said:


> Why's the batter cable put on the right side of the lighthead?
> Will there be a future version with centered cable?


It was there because of the space needed to create an effective thermal transfer path from the LED to the lower casting, I went with several different variations during the initial designs, and ended up finding that doing a wire design similar to NiteRider and L&M did actually make more sense.

If it proves to be an issue in the future, of course we'll fix it in upcoming versions. But for now function takes over form.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> How does this tint range match the C&B Seen 1900 light you got a while back? While I'm interested in hearing how your using a Trail version of you light helmet mounted for the desert trails I ride lots of throw is useful and have been considering using the C&B Seen 1900 helmet mounted (since it's tint is in-between most of my cool white and neutral white lights) with the Outbound trail on the bars.
> Mole


Ask and you shall receive!









Top is the C&B Seen 1900, bottom is the prototype Focal Trail. Keep in mind that the Focal Trail still doesn't have the lens that'll smooth things out, but it gives a good representation of the color temperature. Both taken at the same time so the white balance is identical. Can see why I am a fan of the color temperature provided by the Lumiled chips.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Ask and you shall receive!
> 
> View attachment 1176263
> 
> ...


Thanks!! Also gives me a point of reference for the trails beam width. The Kit I ordered has both the trail and road lightheads so I'll probably try the road out as a helmet option along with the C&B Seen.
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> Thanks!! Also gives me a point of reference for the trails beam width. The Kit I ordered has both the trail and road lightheads so I'll probably try the road out as a helmet option along with the C&B Seen.
> Mole


Keep in mind, that with the lens, it'll get even a bit wider. This is the simulation right now. The top is without the lens, and what you are seeing in the photo above. The bottom is with it. It'll soften up the edges and make it a more seamless riding environment.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

So as I alluded to in the previous post, we got our updated trail reflector in (third revision) and we have pretty much nailed it now. I was extemely hesitant to share beam pattern and wall shots during the earlier phases because I knew they were not living up to what I had in mind, and knew we could achieve. Gotta put our best foot forward when launching a new product and a new company!

So this is the shot of version 2 right off my iPhone. As you can see it's already vastly different than a typical spot pattern, however there were dark holes in the middle of the field of vision . Something already commonly experienced with a spot or "wide" lens, however the light carpet in front means that your eye notices the dark spots far more than with a typical spot beam pattern. If the light carpet was not there, you'd probably think it's a pretty solid wide beam pattern that already is pretty good in terms of how smooth and wide it is.









Now enter the latest revision, which simply modified about 15mm x 5mm near the top of the optic. Very hard to photograph the reflector changes due to the reflectivity, but I think you'll notice it in person when you take a really close look at the reflector. What this does is shift about 15% of the light downwards to fill in those holes, and create that incredibly smooth even field of illumination I was shooting for. Blending the light carpet up front with the main beam pattern almost seamlessly. In person and in motion it really is something else. Super pumped for you guys to really check it out.









These are not great shots. Right off my phone, and not in the exact same location. It was literally 0 degrees outside, and I was just excited to get the new reflectors in and see it working in action. Ran out to the backyard, grabbed a shot of the old reflector, ran back inside, changed out reflectors and got the updated shot.

What is next? New supplier to take over the silicone lens. First supplier did not meet my expectations and we were able to recover some money, but that was a dud. Another reason why we weren't able to get lights out to influencers and some third party reviewers during the kickstarter. We have used the kickstarter money to help pay for the new tooling and they are working in overdrive to get us updated parts as soon as possible. It tripled my unit cost on the lens going with these guys, but the quality should be top notch. It's a cost we can absorb for something that is so critical.

The new lens will soften up the edges of the illumination field, while adding about another 15* of width for both the road and trail versions.


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## Dennis McKim (Dec 26, 2017)

Outbound said:


> The new lens will soften up the edges of the illumination field, while adding about another 15* of width for both the road and trail versions.


That is excellent news. Looking forward to further updates.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

That beam shot looks great. Can’t wait to get this in my hands


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

Gotta say, the new beam pattern is simply dialed! Light works great for indoor riding too


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Alrightyyyyy, we got the pre-orders going now. Right now will be 15% off until we start shipping them in 2 months!

http://www.outboundlighting.com/store/

Still tweaking the website quite a lot day by day. Who knew this stuff took so much work?!


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## eTrex_FSR (Dec 18, 2009)

Hello,
Will you also offer the lighthead only versions with the 15% discount?
What about a (wireless) remote? Something you will offer on a future version?
Thanks


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

eTrex_FSR said:


> Hello,
> Will you also offer the lighthead only versions with the 15% discount?
> What about a (wireless) remote? Something you will offer on a future version?
> Thanks


I will still extend the offer for lighthead only, I don't think I'll be offering it on the website directly since I am still honestly a bit worried about the number of people who might purchase it thinking it's the cheap option and get upset when it arrives without a battery.

Give me a few days, and I'll figure out a solution. Whether it's just a direct PM to me on here and a paypal invoice sent after, or some hidden link on the website.

As for the wireless remote, it's definitely something I am going to be doing on a future version. I want to eventually have a full ecosystem of lights that can all be controlled off a single remote. The current version will not have the remote option.

Thanks!


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

20 years ago I began night-riding with a TurboCat set-up. Heavy lead-acid battery, halogen bulb and glorified flashlight optics. For the past 12 years, I've been riding generic HID and LED flood lamps. The HID, while certainly not impressive by today's standards, was a huge improvement over the halogen lights of that day. The cheap LEDs I've been using the last few years have more lumens than the retired HID lamp, and longer run-time.

These lights have been adequate (well, perhaps not the TurboCat). I've never found issue riding MTB with either the HID or cheap LED, but the crude optics were offset by lumens...lots of them. And lots of wasted light aiming at stuff I'm not looking at during the ride. Likewise, there's probably plenty of detail I'm missing by casting the hot-spot of the flood lamp far enough up-trail to give me time to anticipate the terrain, but not seeing that terrain (well enough) as it moves closer to me.

I'm excited to finally try trail and road LEDs that have an optimized beam pattern. I don't know if this will truly be the game-changer I'm expecting, but I'm probably as giddy in anticipation as I was when my first full-suspension frame was en route in the mail (yeah, yeah, "cool story, bro"). Outbound, big thanks for the effort and time to engineer this product! I look forward to its arrival!!!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

I'm super excited to get it in your hands! Third party reviews not only terrify, but also excite me. We'll have to see. 


-------------

For everyone else who has been reading through, and would like to get the light head only. Please PM me and I can send over an invoice as soon as I understand that you are very aware of the guarantees for run-time and such cannot be upheld if not using the OL battery pack. 

I decided not to have it up on the site, but for enthuisasts like you guys, just send me a PM and I'll get you hooked up.

Thanks!


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

Outbound said:


> ...as I understand that you are very aware of the guarantees for run-time and such cannot be upheld if not using the OL battery pack.


Understood! :thumbsup:

I'll be throwing the ammeter on the light once I get it to determine how much run-time I *should* be able to pull out of my packs under the different modes. I'm sticking with packs of Panasonic cells from reputable vendors, but even then I understand there's variation and loss of performance over time.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Had some freezing temps for several days, then some snow, so we went riding to test out the new reflector. This is without the lens still, so the edges are harsher than they'll actually be, and this is still at 1100 lumens or so, not the full brightness. Waiting on an updated control board to really hit full output.

The pics turned out good though!


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## fk78 (Dec 12, 2017)

Oha, that makes we waiting for the final product to arrive on my doorsteps. Looks really even and could replace my own lights. Or inspire for an update. Good work and keep it going


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## adama31 (Nov 20, 2017)

For those of us buying just the light head, can you comment on the acceptable input power requirements. Specifically a min/max voltage and estimated power draw?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

adama31 said:


> For those of us buying just the light head, can you comment on the acceptable input power requirements. Specifically a min/max voltage and estimated power draw?


From my electrical engineer:

"Designed for a 2S lithium based battery, so input range of 6-8.4V.

That said, the hardware should support 3V to 13V, but the input has to stay below the output since it is a boost only circuit"

So basically, we are going to test out running a 12V circuit since some recumbent bikes have a small battery in there. But it sounds like the ultra low output ranges wouldn't work. We've gotten enough questions regarding the voltage range that he is doing some hardware substitutions to make the input range a little more robust.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes it is good to support 12V input as some ebikes has such output port.


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## Tunnelrat81 (Nov 13, 2011)

Outbound,

I've been watching this subforum recently as I've been researching an upgrade light for my wife to commute to work with on the road. I finally read through this entire thread last night and have to admit that the description of your light seems impressive and has potentially changed the direction of my light search. 

Kudos for taking your work expertise and applying it to the great activity of cycling. I asked the same question a long time ago, "Why are there no reflector based bike lights with a nicely shaped beam?" I see now, after reading this thread, that the reason is that there is a whole lot more complexity involved than making a center LED spot light.

I'm also thrilled with the prospect of a US based company designing and assembling lights in the middle price range and with decent runtimes. My father in law recently asked me to look at the light & motion offerings and choose one of the <$100 lights to help her upgrade from her current MJ808. I was sad to see that even their remote battery options have a modest runtime, and that they were way beyond my price range. Plus, I refuse to "invest" in an all-in-one light that doesn't have a replaceable battery, so their urban lights were out. And I simply can't bring myself to drop $450 on a bike light.

So here I am, about to stretch my budget a bit and put my faith in you guys to deliver on your promise with this focal series. 

I am curious, however, about one thing. As you've seen here, there are LOTS of threads about battery packs of all types and price ranges. It seems that at times the battery packs get more discussion than lightheads here. First, I want the thank you for sticking to the standard round connector on your lights. That decision is i'm sure universally appreciated. My question is whether you and your EE are responsible for any of the battery pack circuitry/design, or are you sourcing a more stock pack to ship your lights with? There has been plenty of discussion here regarding cheap, imported pcbs and how to check their cell balancing functions and safety etc.. Should we assume that you have been equally as attentive to the battery design as you have with the lighthead? If you are packaging these with a stock pack designed and built elsewhere, what quality control measures will you be using to ensure the longevity and safety of your included battery packs as compared to, for example, the kaidomain Panasonic packs that have been reviewed here by ledoman, gemini packs, or those offered from gloworm? 

T.L.D.R.: 

You've impressed many of us with the extensive details about your lightheads. Can you tell us a little more about your battery packs?

-Jeremy


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Tunnelrat81 said:


> I've been watching this subforum recently as I've been researching an upgrade light for my wife to commute to work with on the road. I finally read through this entire thread last night and have to admit that the description of your light seems impressive and has potentially changed the direction of my light search.
> 
> Kudos for taking your work expertise and applying it to the great activity of cycling. I asked the same question a long time ago, "Why are there no reflector based bike lights with a nicely shaped beam?" I see now, after reading this thread, that the reason is that there is a whole lot more complexity involved than making a center LED spot light.
> 
> I'm also thrilled with the prospect of a US based company designing and assembling lights in the middle price range and with decent runtimes. My father in law recently asked me to look at the light & motion offerings and choose one of the <$100 lights to help her upgrade from her current MJ808. I was sad to see that even their remote battery options have a modest runtime, and that they were way beyond my price range. Plus, I refuse to "invest" in an all-in-one light that doesn't have a replaceable battery, so their urban lights were out. And I simply can't bring myself to drop $450 on a bike light.


Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you asked the same questions I did! It's not easy to make these kind of lights, but it's also not exactly rocket science and shouldn't cost the same as a cheap bike for a basic reflector and some CREE's. I know I might eat my words one day when I start trying to make even higher end lights that'll really stretch the tech. :lol:



> I am curious, however, about one thing. As you've seen here, there are LOTS of threads about battery packs of all types and price ranges. It seems that at times the battery packs get more discussion than lightheads here. First, I want the thank you for sticking to the standard round connector on your lights. That decision is i'm sure universally appreciated. My question is whether you and your EE are responsible for any of the battery pack circuitry/design, or are you sourcing a more stock pack to ship your lights with? There has been plenty of discussion here regarding cheap, imported pcbs and how to check their cell balancing functions and safety etc.. Should we assume that you have been equally as attentive to the battery design as you have with the lighthead? If you are packaging these with a stock pack designed and built elsewhere, what quality control measures will you be using to ensure the longevity and safety of your included battery packs as compared to, for example, the kaidomain Panasonic packs that have been reviewed here by ledoman, gemini packs, or those offered from gloworm?


Great questions to ask!

The battery pack is a stock item that has been custom built for my specifications in terms of battery selection and the jacketing. The batteries are genuine LG cells that includes a protection circuit. Properly built with good quality for all the ones that I have opened up. The supplier is actually the same supplier for that brand with the $450 light you mentioned. I won't name names. 

Part of the quality control is getting a chart of testing for every battery that is sent out. They are all load tested before being packed up and shipped out and we will be able to confirm that once we receive them. Anything that doesn't pass inspection gets sent back and refunded, so it's very much worth our while to test them when we receive them as well. Far cheaper to get a refund from the supplier then to have a failure in the field and have to refund a customer!

We ran through lots of samples when trying to locate a battery supplier. My EE did testing on all of them to ensure the claimed output would actually be correct. Those insanely cheap battery packs are often insanely cheap for a reason. Here is a chart of some discharge testing he did for a number of battery packs we had. Keep in mind these were all "rated" for the same output. But look at the vast difference in actual amp hours.









The cost of the lowest performing pack was 4 or 5 times cheaper than the highest. Despite the same claimed output. I think you can guess which packs I ended up deciding to go with. There was no reason to compromise the promised output and runtime, nor potential warranty returns or frustrated customers to save some money.

My other full time job of designing automotive aftermarket lighting taught me first hand how important first time quality is not only from the manufacturing standpoint; the customer service standpoint; but especially the financial standpoint. It may cost 20-40% more to make essentially the same product with premium components, but if it results in a near zero failure rate, then the revenue saved in warranty returns, bad reviews, shipping, and just the general headaches is 110% worth it. Will always come out ahead when building a quality product, it just takes longer to build a successful revenue stream because of the initial investment needed in higher end components and the lower margins.

TLDR; took the same approach to design as we did to the battery packs. Quality is number one, no compromises. Price might be more expensive than a KD version, but there is a reason a lot of the brand name (gloworm, L&M, etc.) battery packs are expensive, good performing batteries aren't cheap. Plus our battery pack comes with the kickass pouch.


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Outbound said:


> ...since it is a boost only circuit.


This reminded me a question I had two years ago.

Does it make more sense in making light source shape a (rather) long rectangle, not a square, as usual? I wrote a post two years ago, so please read more explanation here. (your EE writes "boost only", so it means several LED in series, so perhaps some special non-square optimized shape, may be?)

And another question: Does your, and "most" of contemporary lighting simulation software take into account non point-like-ness of the LED? (two years ago I looked at some software, and they assumed only point-like source, with angular dependence of course)

Open Book, please resolve my two-year old concerns!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

abvgdee said:


> This reminded me a question I had two years ago.
> 
> Does it make more sense in making light source shape a (rather) long rectangle, not a square, as usual? I wrote a post two years ago, so please read more explanation here. (your EE writes "boost only", so it means several LED in series, so probably some special non-square optimized shape, may be?)
> 
> ...


You are right about long rectangular sources being better. That's precisely what the Lumiled Altilon is. It's essentially 5 tiny dies arranged in a rectangle, what I refer to as a 1x5.









The reason for the boost circuit is that the chip itself runs between 13-16V, so have to boost up the voltage from the battery that's running at 7.4V. Unlike a lot of single die chips that run at 3V or so, then they have buck down the voltage to run the chip.

As for the optical software, most certainly does account for the emitting face, and not just a single point. Single point stuff is great for real fast-quick-n-dirty simulations to get in the general ballpark, or free/cheap software. If you look around at LED datasheets you'll often find a file for raytrace files hidden around somewhere. Those are supplier offered files that provide the exact distribution curve and power for a particular chip. Those are applied to the model and then simulated. A "quick" simulation uses up to 20 million raytraces to create the simulated beam pattern. A couple hour long or overnight simulation may use up to 1 trillion raytraces to get the most real-world simulation possible. There is a happy medium between speed and accuracy. Typically I run a lot of short simulations to get close to where I want and then do an hour or two long simulation to check accuracy while I work on something else.


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Thank you so much!  Awesome open book!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

abvgdee said:


> Thank you so much!  Awesome open book!


Very welcome. I'm always happy to help! I want to get more information out there on what makes quality lighting, since it's a rather.... dark.... subject. Lots of people can cite suspension geometry stuff, frame stiffness stuff, human biometrics stuff, but not a lot of people really understand how good lighting is developed except for "big lumens = bestest", and that's mostly because the world of lighting development is hidden behind some very expensive software and fairly tight lipped engineers. Lot's of information out there if you know where to look, particularly in the automotive sector.


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Do you plan to use an Atmel AVR microcontroller in the driver? For my headlights, I came up with my own control scheme, very well tailored for my preferences, and I'd wish to be able to re-program your light (if I ever buy it). May be others feel same? That family (8-bit, atmega, attiny) is very popular among electronics hobbyists.

Is there a chance you'll release open-source firmware for your driver? No company makes their firmwares open source -- understandable. But may be you are different...


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

abvgdee said:


> Do you plan to use an Atmel AVR microcontroller in the driver? For my headlights, I came up with my own control scheme, very well tailored for my preferences, and I'd wish to be able to re-program your light (if I ever buy it). May be others feel same? That family (8-bit, atmega, attiny) is very popular among electronics hobbyists.
> 
> Is there a chance you'll release open-source firmware for your driver? No company makes their firmwares open source -- understandable. But may be you are different...


Unfortunately that part won't exactly be opensource, nor easily programmable by a user. It's not a hobby grade microcontroller, and is programmed on the assembly line at the PCB supplier (located in Kansas City, about 3 hours from us) through a unique probe connection. Allows for ultra fast production that keeps the overall costs down.

Trying to use more commonly available hobbiest type drivers, with ways for a user to do their own programming would only increase the already high cost (to us, not the user) and add another level of complexity. Can only go so far.


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Thanks for explanations!

[A bunch of boring words was here -- deleted. Let's wait for wall shots. Unfortunately, can't delete post.]

PS. I'd wish to see a wall shot (road edition) -- an image, processed from measured data, with colorbar (and numbers), in log scale, with isolines, and with angles grid (and in decent resolution). Thanks  (I remember, you planned a full-scale proper headlight comparison project, so no hurry.)


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

First big ole bag of custom made overmolded wiring harnesses showed up the other day! Put into perspective just how many I'll have made once I'm all done, haha.

We also sent out the PO for our PCBA boards to a local supplier in Kansas City. Very qualified shop that got us great pricing and are going to work super hard to try and help hit our deadline. No overseas electrical production here. No soldered power leads, everything inspected at the manufacture, and thankfully no weeks in overseas shipping.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

More science time!

https://www.outboundlighting.com/twice-many-lumens-means-ill-see-twice-far-right-well-no/

Brief discussion showing the math of why a 2000 lumen light won't let you see twice as far as a 1000 lumen light, but in fact only 41% as far.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

We now have live chat on the website. It isn't manned by third party people, or chat bots. Instead think of it as a direct line to myself. Always happy to answer some questions or help with an order.

www.outboundlighting.com!


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Another question 

In CAD programs, when they show "wall beamshot", what illuminance is shown -- (1) on the enclosing sphere of radius 10m around the light (i.e., simulating goniometer measurements), or (2) at the plane, with the pattern hotspot at 10m (i.e., simulating wall shots)? Or something else?

Thank you!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

abvgdee said:


> Another question
> 
> In CAD programs, when they show "wall beamshot", what illuminance is shown -- (1) on the enclosing sphere of radius 10m around the light (i.e., simulating goniometer measurements), or (2) at the plane, with the pattern hotspot at 10m (i.e., simulating wall shots)? Or something else?
> 
> Thank you!


Can be either or depending on your goal.

With candela or intensity plots you are plotting onto a sphere because you are looking at angle requirements. This is primarily what is used when designing a beam pattern.

However when wanting to check illumance on a wall to get an idea of lux, it's a plane at a set distance. Or can set a plane horizontally to get an idea of how it'll illuminate the ground. On some more advanced software can even setup things such as terrain or objects to get illumination maps on there. Maybe one of these days I'll be able to bring out a 3D Scanner to my local trails and make the ultimate light for a particular trail.


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Can you tell me how will we atach gopro adaprer to the light, with some screws or there is something setup for that?

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

MrBucan said:


> Can you tell me how will we atach gopro adaprer to the light, with some screws or there is something setup for that?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


So the GoPro adapter is exactly that, it's just a GoPro adapter that allows you to mount the light onto your exising GoPro mounts, in any way that you see fit. For helmet applications, or on bars or wherever you want to. We obviously recommend using our mount for the bars, but we wanted to give users options to other mounting solutions, and therefore included the GoPro adapter mount.

Hope that makes sense!

Edit: re-read your question. You will remove the existing rubber factory bar mount and air scoop with a 4mm allen screw, and attach the GoPro adapter in it's place using that same piece of hardware.


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Thx for the reply, was just curious, i am prolly still use the default mount coz of faster mounting on and off the handlebars. Decided to use it also on my commute to work.

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MrBucan said:


> Thx for the reply, was just curious, i am prolly still use the default mount coz of faster mounting on and off the handlebars. Decided to use it also on my commute to work.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


Kyle (Zenki) is right, pretty simple and quick swap. There is a nyloc nut inside the assembly so the chances of stripping existing threads inside the diecast is pretty slim. And then if you do, it's simply a nyloc nut replacement instead of having to buy a whole new light.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

350 pounds worth of batteries showing up on Thursday! UPS guy is going to hateeee me.


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## Tunnelrat81 (Nov 13, 2011)

Outbound said:


> 350 pounds worth of batteries showing up on Thursday! UPS guy is going to hateeee me.


Thanks for the update. I know I'm not alone in my anxious wait for pre-orders to ship out. Are you guy still hoping/planning for a late March delivery?

-Jeremy


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Tunnelrat81 said:


> Thanks for the update. I know I'm not alone in my anxious wait for pre-orders to ship out. Are you guy still hoping/planning for a late March delivery?
> 
> -Jeremy


I'm waiting on a more firm date from my local PCBA supplier that is putting together the PCB's, but to be honest, probably going to slip into early April. All the parts, lenses, reflectors, straps, batteries, cases, etc will be here in house within the next 2 weeks, but the PCB supplier has been beholden to availability from their own suppliers for various components. Some last minute Engineering Change Orders from us pushed the date back that they could deliver. Wanted to absolutely have a rock-solid product from the get go.

Thankfully there is nothing so far that is causing us to go back and redesign an entire product or circuitry like some kickstarter projects, and be months or years past the estimated delivery date.

I'm itching to get these out to everyone as well. Debts are starting to build up! Gotta get to selling!


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## Tunnelrat81 (Nov 13, 2011)

Thank you for such a full explanation. I doubt anyone here will have a problem with you making sure things are right before shipping. Your continued transparency in the process is refreshing and adds to the anticipation for what we know will be a special product. :thumbsup:

-Jeremy


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Outbound said:


> Thankfully there is nothing so far that is causing us to go back and redesign an entire product or circuitry like some kickstarter projects, and be months or years past the estimated delivery date.


That happened to Orfos, the company that provided their molds couldn't live up to their claims, and they had to start over with a new company. Great product, can't wait until I can update to the new gear.

It's March! Update time!

For future reference, when introducing what could be a game changing product, understate your worst case delivery timeline by 30%. Nothing sucks worse than a pushback for something you are excited about. Nothing is better than early delivery dates.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Flamingtaco said:


> That happened to Orfos, the company that provided their molds couldn't live up to their claims, and they had to start over with a new company. Great product, can't wait until I can update to the new gear.
> 
> It's March! Update time!
> 
> For future reference, when introducing what could be a game changing product, understate your worst case delivery timeline by 30%. Nothing sucks worse than a pushback for something you are excited about. Nothing is better than early delivery dates.


It's funny, we had the same problem with the lens. About a week away from seeing if the new lens tooling company can live up to their claim. Previous company did a crap job, and then ghosted us.

PCB supplier says they'll have a firm date to give me tomorrow. As soon as I know, you guys will know. 

I had actually been wanting to say we were going to deliver in February for the KS, but was urged to push it further back just in case. Well all those just in cases did come through and now used up that extra 30% timeframe. Haha. Back when I started the project in April I was shooting for a November launch date. Glad I didn't publicity state that anywhere!

I'll have some pictures tonight of all the batteries that showed up. Will be able to start testing and putting them into the pouches in the meantime. Fair bit of work to put 500 silicone enclosed batteries into some sticky rubber pouches.


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

> Nothing sucks worse than a pushback for something you are excited about. Nothing is better than early delivery dates.


I would like to disagree on this. For me at least what sucks the most is getting a subquality product for the sake of getting it on time. I got burned for the same reason and dont like that mentality in anyone. So il rather even w8 some more then to compromise quality.
And nothing is better then to get what you expected. 
So for example of Orfos, i respect the fact they didnt send subpar product just to be on time, everyone was satisfied with Flares they received, even though it was much later.

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

MrBucan said:


> I would like to disagree on this. For me at least what sucks the most is getting a subquality product for the sake of getting it on time. I


I think that the context of Flaming's post was to take the worst case delivery date and extend that 30%. Then you have cushion and you may be a hero for delivering a quality product ahead of, time and if worst comes to worse, you'll still have a decent chance of making the ship date.

As a manufacturer I do this regularly. When I tell someone their custom machined parts order will take 2 weeks they sometimes groan a bit but place the order. Then after a week and a half I'm shipping/delivering parts happy faces are all over the place.


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Outbound said:


> It's funny, we had the same problem with the lens. About a week away from seeing if the new lens tooling company can live up to their claim. Previous company did a crap job, and then ghosted us.


So, you are saying you don't have confirmation from your lens producer NOW? Hopefully they get it right, I don't need a 3/4yr extension on another kickstarter!

What was the deciding factor in going with a silicone lens? Reduced parts? Cheaper than UV stabile acrylic? Just cause you like to show off?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Flamingtaco said:


> So, you are saying you don't have confirmation from your lens producer NOW? Hopefully they get it right, I don't need a 3/4yr extension on another kickstarter!
> 
> What was the deciding factor in going with a silicone lens? Reduced parts? Cheaper than UV stabile acrylic? Just cause you like to show off?


We have shots of a cheaper material to confirm the shape and dimensions are stable, and they are now shooting with the correct material to finally dial things in.

Went with the silicone as a parts reduction, clearer than PMMA and PC, scratch and crash resistant, lighter weight than plastics, and because it's an optical material I've been wanting to work with for a while now. Neat material that seems to blow peoples mind when they touch it and see it in person. Not sure if will still use it in future products as a straight up outer lens, since the costs are fairly high compared to PMMA, but I'm curious to hear what other reactions are to it.


----------



## Scott Novak (Mar 2, 2013)

Outbound,

My priority is reliability. Scratch resistance is important. Not becoming brittle in subzero weather is important. Not becoming cloudy from UV rays is important.

Aside from cost, is there any downside to using a silicone lens?

Scott Novak


----------



## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Scott Novak said:


> Outbound,
> 
> My priority is reliability. Scratch resistance is important. Not becoming brittle in subzero weather is important. Not becoming cloudy from UV rays is important.
> 
> ...


So far not really. I guess I shouldn't say I am opposed to it in general in the future because of cost, I just need to implement it better. Smaller optical features with silicone are amazing because of the fact you can have zero draft faces and undercuts, and can have it pressed right against the LED without worries of heat affecting it. The real killer is the cost of the tooling. It is by far the most expensive tooling in the whole light because it has to be a hot-runner type tool, along with extremely polished faces since it's optical grade.

So it hurts as a startup with limited cash, but in the future when reinvesting it won't be so bad. I've got a lot of ideas for the silicone material in the near future. Also a few tricks up my sleeve for some insane light sources. Was tipped off on some new developments that I am trying to get my hands on.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Hey Outbound,
We had a little rain a couple of nights ago so I decided to convert some of my lux measurements to candela using the formula posted in the beginning of this thread. I remeasured my distances and to be kind to myself my sloppy testing made any previous data unusable. Using more accurate measurements and my 2017 Gloworm X2 (S/S optics) I ended up with a calculated 150 max. lux reading. That's the best thrower of any of my sub 2000 lumen lights so the 175 max. lux you got from your road lighthead looks pretty outstanding and I'm definitely going to try using that helmet mounted since I'm getting both road and mountain versions. Also since the line of sight distances are probably a lot greater on my desert trails than the forest environment you ride in I'm more comfortable that the 80 max. lux of the trail lighthead should be adequate for all but the fastest trails I ride. Patiently waiting, Thanks for doing this for us! 
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> Hey Outbound,
> We had a little rain a couple of nights ago so I decided to convert some of my lux measurements to candela using the formula posted in the beginning of this thread. I remeasured my distances and to be kind to myself my sloppy testing made any previous data unusable. Using more accurate measurements and my 2017 Gloworm X2 (S/S optics) I ended up with a calculated 150 max. lux reading. That's the best thrower of any of my sub 2000 lumen lights so the 175 max. lux you got from your road lighthead looks pretty outstanding and I'm definitely going to try using that helmet mounted since I'm getting both road and mountain versions. Also since the line of sight distances are probably a lot greater on my desert trails than the forest environment you ride in I'm more comfortable that the 80 max. lux of the trail lighthead should be adequate for all but the fastest trails I ride. Patiently waiting, Thanks for doing this for us!
> Mole


That 150 lux on a typical TIR spot optic with a 2000 lumen source sounds about right to me. I was getting some high readings like that too on even some of the cheaper chinese lights, thing is that all of that light was compressed into such a tiny area that even though it had high lux, it was nearly un-rideable. Like riding with a laser pointer compared to the Trail optic.

Still looking forward to seeing what you think about having the massive field of vision with the trail despite a lower peak lux then what you think is acceptable. It's amazing what contrast ratio reduction will do for our eyes in terms of what "feels" brighter compared to something else when in person and in motion (in regards to just looking at pictures and numbers).


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> That 150 lux on a typical TIR spot optic with a 2000 lumen source sounds about right to me. I was getting some high readings like that too on even some of the cheaper chinese lights, thing is that all of that light was compressed into such a tiny area that even though it had high lux, it was nearly un-rideable. Like riding with a laser pointer compared to the Trail optic.
> 
> Still looking forward to seeing what you think about having the massive field of vision with the trail despite a lower peak lux then what you think is acceptable. It's amazing what contrast ratio reduction will do for our eyes in terms of what "feels" brighter compared to something else when in person and in motion (in regards to just looking at pictures and numbers).


You'll definitely get feedback on what I think + in a few months on how your lights work in 100 degree ride temps.
Mole


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Outbound said:


> That 150 lux on a typical TIR spot optic with a 2000 lumen source sounds about right to me. I was getting some high readings like that too on even some of the cheaper chinese lights, thing is that all of that light was compressed into such a tiny area that even though it had high lux, it was nearly un-rideable. Like riding with a laser pointer compared to the Trail optic.
> 
> Still looking forward to seeing what you think about having the massive field of vision with the trail despite a lower peak lux then what you think is acceptable. It's amazing what contrast ratio reduction will do for our eyes in terms of what "feels" brighter compared to something else when in person and in motion (in regards to just looking at pictures and numbers).


What was the distance for those lux readings?

I'd like so see lux readings for both of these lights from centerline to 10º-15º. How well the lights fill their spill would say a lot about how ubiquitous bike light optics can't live up to the needs of cyclists, even when they are some of the best optics available.


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Flamingtaco said:


> What was the distance for those lux readings?


For german StVZO measurements 10m are standard.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Maybe I missed it, but how do people plan on running a helmet mount with the 6400mAh battery? Battery in a jersey pocket or pack? 
Or, how would the road/trail combo pack work with 1 battery?

Currently I have a bar/helmet setup with smaller 3200mAh batteries so my helmet battery is on the back of my helmet.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

farfromovin said:


> Maybe I missed it, but how do people plan on running a helmet mount with the 6400mAh battery? Battery in a jersey pocket or pack?
> Or, how would the road/trail combo pack work with 1 battery?
> 
> Currently I have a bar/helmet setup with smaller 3200mAh batteries so my helmet battery is on the back of my helmet.


I certainly don't mean to speak for Matt, but the lightheads in the Road and Trail combo are intended to be used one at a time, not simultaneously. Ideally this would be for someone commuting on pavement and also riding trails. If you want to run them simultaneously, best to purchase separate road and trail packages, with 2 battery packs.

Helmet mounted, Matt had mentioned carrying the battery in your pack (a jersey pocket would probably work as well, subject to cable length).

At least this is what I had understood after chatting with Matt about these and numerous other questions I had the other evening.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

mtnbkrmike said:


> I certainly don't mean to speak for Matt, but the lightheads in the Road and Trail combo are intended to be used one at a time, not simultaneously. Ideally this would be for someone commuting on pavement and also riding trails. If you want to run them simultaneously, best to purchase separate road and trail packages, with 2 battery packs.
> 
> Helmet mounted, Matt had mentioned carrying the battery in your pack (a jersey pocket would probably work as well, subject to cable length).
> 
> At least this is what I had understood after chatting with Matt about these and numerous other questions I had the other evening.


Thanks for confirming that.

So for mtb use with dual lights would it be recommended to run a trail on the helmet as well or is that more of a preference? I currently have a spread beam on my bars and a spot beam on the helmet and it works pretty well for me. 
I know the design behind this is to only need 1 light, but I like redundancy and being able to see something off the side of the trail despite where my bars are pointed if need be.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

farfromovin said:


> Thanks for confirming that.
> 
> So for mtb use with dual lights would it be recommended to run a trail on the helmet as well or is that more of a preference? I currently have a spread beam on my bars and a spot beam on the helmet and it works pretty well for me.


Provided I understood his advice correctly, I believe that ideally, you would run a road on the helmet and a trail on the bar, which would be consistent with the beam pattern you are currently running. Two trails would work however, as would one trail only on the bar (which Matt seemed quite confident would work very adequately for most applications). One road on the bar might prove to be challenging on anything fast and twisty.

Hopefully I am not mis-stating anything we discussed.


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## Tunnelrat81 (Nov 13, 2011)

farfromovin said:


> Thanks for confirming that.
> 
> So for mtb use with dual lights would it be recommended to run a trail on the helmet as well or is that more of a preference? I currently have a spread beam on my bars and a spot beam on the helmet and it works pretty well for me.


From what I interpret from this extensive discussion on these new lights, it sounds like the light spread on the trail edition would potentially be significantly broader (and more evenly spread) than most (or is it all?) lights on the market. So this means that if you are currently happy with a wide beam on the bars and a spot on your helmet, the light to replace may be the one on the bars, and leave your current long throw spotlight on your head. As mtnbkrmike stated above, none of us can speak for Matt, and my guess is that before too long you'll get a reply directly from the source. 

I do remember him saying somewhere that although these lights can absolutely be mounted to helmets, they were primarily designed with handlebar mount in mind.

-Jeremy


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Tunnelrat81 said:


> I do remember him saying somewhere that although these lights can absolutely be mounted to helmets, they were primarily designed with handlebar mount in mind.


Yikes. Yes. That is consistent with my discussions as well.

I think that came up more or less when he mentioned that for most, the trail lighthead on the bar only would more than suffice. In my circumstances, he mentioned I could supplement that with my Nite Rider 750 Lumina Micro (for the 5 or so minutes that it remained bright enough, anyway, lol). Or, I could use a road (or trail) lighthead on my helmet, but a longer cable than the standard one may be required to carry the battery in a pack. And it would likely be overkill.

I'm not going to comment anymore for fear I may be misstating something.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Tunnelrat81 said:


> From what I interpret from this extensive discussion on these new lights, it sounds like the light spread on the trail edition would potentially be significantly broader (and more evenly spread) than most (or is it all?) lights on the market. So this means that if you are currently happy with a wide beam on the bars and a spot on your helmet, the light to replace may be the one on the bars, and leave your current long throw spotlight on your head. As mtnbkrmike stated above, none of us can speak for Matt, and my guess is that before too long you'll get a reply directly from the source.
> 
> I do remember him saying somewhere that although these lights can absolutely be mounted to helmets, they were primarily designed with handlebar mount in mind.
> 
> -Jeremy


Well, road and trail pre-ordered anyway . I'm gonna give it a go. Love the engineering behind this project.


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## Tunnelrat81 (Nov 13, 2011)

farfromovin said:


> Well, road and trail pre-ordered anyway . I'm gonna give it a go. Love the engineering behind this project.


I have a road edition on order as well, and am as anxious as anyone for it to show up. Their approach to design and execution is as encouraging to me as the product they are offering. Lots of industries have been in a race to the bottom, so seeing a company trying to do it right is like a breath of fresh air. It's worth it for me to buy a light for that reason alone, in hopes that they succeed and can bring future products to market.

Sadly, however, the light is for my wife...which means that she'll get most of the joy out of it and I get to negotiate with her whenever I want to borrow it.

-Jeremy


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

farfromovin said:


> Well, road and trail pre-ordered anyway . I'm gonna give it a go. Love the engineering behind this project.


I ordered road and trail too. I plan on trying the road version for helmet use but hard to predict how it will work because it was design specifically as a bar mounted road light so light distribution and beam shape may or may not work well for this use. Maximum lux numbers are very good for the road version (for a 1500 lumen light) so it has the potential for very good throw but will require actual ride testing to see how well it works. I have several other lights that I consider possible good matches for helmet use paired with the trail version which I'll test also but hope the road version will work since I know the tint match will be exact on it. We can all speculate but till the lights are delivered Matt is the only real reliable source of information at the moment.
Mole


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

MRMOLE said:


> I ordered road and trail too. I plan on trying the road version for helmet use but hard to predict how it will work because it was design specifically as a bar mounted road light so light distribution and beam shape may or may not work well for this use. Maximum lux numbers are very good for the road version (for a 1500 lumen light) so it has the potential for very good throw but will require actual ride testing to see how well it works. I have several other lights that I consider possible good matches for helmet use paired with the trail version which I'll test also but hope the road version will work since I know the tint match will be exact on it. We can all speculate but till the lights are delivered Matt is the only real reliable source of information at the moment.
> Mole


Hope Matt is right and the trail version is exactly all any reasonable rider needs. If that's the case I'm still happy just having a tint matching spot on my helmet for trailside repairs, backup light source, blinding buddies, etc...


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Dang it, I spend the day working on the production space and thread blows up.  

For the helmet mount stuff, I have an extension cord (not on the website yet) that is about 30" long so that a battery can sit in a backpack or a hip pack for use on a helmet. Would like to have a helmet specific mount in the future, but there wasn't much demand for one right now, plus the 4 cell pack might be a little heavy up there. If sales do well, can afford a run of 2 cell helmet-specific type packs, but for now cash flow is just too tight to make another option at the moment.

The Trail or the Road will be perfectly fine on a helmet. The road has a higher peak lux, and could be aimed up a bit higher so that the cutoff isn't as noticeable. If looking straight ahead, a road + trail on the bars would be a peak lux of around 230-250 based on prelim tests. What is cool about either version on the helmet is not only the tint matching perfectly, but the light carpet is still in effect, and really does make for a feeling of total vision as you look around combined with the bar light. I don't think anyone would be disappointed with either versions on the helmet.

--------------------------

The Road & Trail combo on the website is indeed meant for those who do both trail and road riding on two different bikes, want to have lights specific for each need, and want to save a bit by not having another battery. I wouldn't recommend the road version on a trail, just because the Trail edition is designed specifically for it, but you won't die, and it won't be the worst thing. It'll still be miles better than a typical cheap spot light. I just wouldn't be comparing it to a Seca 2500. 

Nor would I be recommending the trail version on the road because it's not as focused to overcome ambient light, and doesn't have the cutoff. However it too will still be better than a typical bike light.

Hopefully this helps clear some things up!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Also forgot to mention, I am going to try and get more updated lux values for all of you. Will be setting up a little test area in my backyard shining into the woods with posts marked off at various degrees as requested in here. Was going to do it tonight but it's pouring rain right now. :/


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Also forgot to mention, I am going to try and get more updated lux values for all of you. Will be setting up a little test area in my backyard shining into the woods with posts marked off at various degrees as requested in here. Was going to do it tonight but it's pouring rain right now. :/


Rain sucks, for bike riding anyway. Definitely looking forward to more raw data on your lights. Estimating how they will work is difficult because your "carpet of light" concept is so different to what we are used to. Thanks for keeping us updated.
Mole


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

I'm still interested, and still curious... *Near field*. Almost all cutoff lights have uneven near field, their "carpet" starts at around 4 meters. Could you boast about your near field efforts (for the road version)? Could you comment my nerdy understanding, why it's uneven?

1. Design/manufacturing accuracy.

(For Philips SR80, the bottom half of the main pattern is (seems to me) created by a relatively small upper reflector part closer to LEDs - you can notice a change in stripes slope; most of the reflector surface is for the upper pattern half - the cutoff area).








The near field _could_ have been created by a very thin reflector strip very close to LED. (very thin - because for the near field adjustment, very little light is needed). However, (a) because this thin strip must reflect light to larger range of angles than "far beam" reflector parts, and (b) because of the proximity to (finite-sized=big) LED, this strip (its curvatures) must be designed, manufactured and positioned - much, much more precisely than major "far beam" reflector surface. Too much troubles. Am I right here?

Did you - unlike essentially everybody else - took the time and efforts for this tiny strip?

2. Cars-oriented software.

It looks to me that one should separate the simulation of near and far angles - to not wait huge time for relatively rare near-field rays, and instead, just concentrate on them, ignoring the would-be-"overexposed" cutoff area. (somehow identify LED rays angles range that will contribute to cutoff area, and specify it to ignore it).

Does cars-oriented (where near field is not needed) software allow such a separate simulation of selected rays range? Did you use it?

3. Narrow angles for direct-LED-visible near-field illumination.

This is different, it's about width (not about uniformity) of illumination. Best described by a picture:








Notice the blue angle for SR80 is larger, so better. (of course, this direct-LED-visible illumination should be further adjusted by reflector - to make it even; alas, this has not been done). How about this idea - to make these 2 "extension discontinuities", is it good?

Many words, sorry  And thanks again!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

abvgdee said:


> I'm still interested, and still curious... *Near field*. Almost all cutoff lights have uneven near field, their "carpet" starts at around 4 meters. Could you boast about your near field efforts (for the road version)? Could you comment my nerdy understanding, why it's uneven?
> 
> 1. Design/manufacturing accuracy.
> 
> ...


I will try and get some better visuals later tonight, but I can't speak for all other types of lights and their uneven near field, but I will say it is quite challenging to control. It is why we went through 3 different production tools.

The reflector size makes it near impossible to get a proper prototype done since we are talking reflector facets that are 4mm x 4mm on the cutoff version, and 1.5mm x 1.5mm on the trail version. They have to be polished to a very high spec before being metalized. We attempted some 3D printed parts and then metalizing and it confirmed we were in the general ballpark, but was nowhere near as accurate as an actual tooled part coming from a mold.

So manufacturing plays a big part in it, as well as the actual reflector facet size. You'll notice on a lot of cheaper lights the facets are actually quite large, this is because it's far easier to polish a mold when the facets are large, but then that means you only have a few faces to re-image the light source. It can get tough to try and explain just through words in layman terms, but have to consider that the primary job of the reflector facet is to project the source image in a different direction, as well as a stretch/squish the image itself to create a beam pattern. So lots of facets provide lots of opportunities to squish/stretch the source image until it is nearly seamless and hard to tell which facet is doing what. But if you only have half a dozen facets then it can be real easy to tell what facet is doing what (similar to what you figured out on the saferide). So that is a design tradeoff between beam pattern control/blending, and initial tooling costs.

I hattttteeee artifacts, especially when it can be avoided. So there are some heavy textured sections of the reflector to make sure that there isn't hotspots. In fact here is a picture taken. The stakes pictured are at 10m and 10* interval spacing. The bike is on sort of a lean so it looks lopsided, and the camera isn't picking up the 5-10 lux that is visible at the 40* mark and the few lux visible at the 50* mark outside the view of the camera. But it shows the evenness of the trail light carpet (very similar to the road).









As for the reflector design for nearfield/far field, I can't say there are hard and fast rules because there are thousands of different ways that a source image can get re-imaged to achieve the desired effect. That is why there are entire subsections of engineering dedicated to Optical Engineering, massive conferences every year for automotive lighting techniques, and whole books written on it. This is an example of what I mean by source image redirection:









Except in that case, the source is a halogen filament, which is basically a cylinder. While in LED cases, the source is a small square (or rectangle in my case). The whole science of improving efficiency with lighting doesn't apply just to cars and bikes. Also things like streelights, office spaces, home lighting, etc. are all starting to see optical illumination engineering take hold to maximize light output. This is an example from a whitepaper I have showing the difference between a traditional street light with a spot/polar type optic (what almost every bike light is), and an engineered optic that puts light exactly where it's needed. Notice the power required difference. This means that it can use a far lower lumen light to achieve the exact same output where it's required. It's how the trail version is batting alongside the Seca 2500 despite nearly half the power.









----------------------

As for the software, still have to consider the whole beam pattern, though often I would focus on just a select key areas and tweak. Even by setting target beam angles and spreads by one or two degrees can drastically change the whole system, or by changing the focal length. There are a lot of cool things that can be done once really understand the software. It is like any other CAD modeling software. Can you do some basic stuff with it without much knowledge? Yep. Can you really get a high quality model that fully exploits the software within a week or two? Noooope. Took me almost 2-3 years of working with it almost everyday to feel really proficient with it to the point I'm comfortable developing all kinds of optics whether it's reflector, solid, TIR, light pipes, etc.

-----------

As for the direct LED visibility, it was a design tradeoff between the outer lens, light to be redirected forwards, and the light on the ground in front. The reflector itself does fill in the area that the LED isn't visible as well as the blending lens itself tosses some more light further to the side than what is directly visible. Plus if you push the LED further towards the edge of the light, that is a LOT of light energy that is going to be wasted directly on the front tire. B&M does a decent job of redirecting it with a tiny little lens that sits in front of the LED on their IQ series, but it also contributes to an uneven nearfield.


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## Scott Novak (Mar 2, 2013)

Outbound,

I think that this is a good example of where art meets science. You need an intuitive grasp of the science to put it all into perspective.

Scott Novak


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Thank you!



Outbound said:


> I will try and get some better visuals later tonight...


Yes, please. This last trail-version photo looks great (it's without lens?). I'd like to see a similar shot for road version. In fact, I don't see here any road version photos. The last (third) photo from your post#189 - is it road, old mold, and tilted up?

However, my curiosity is far from being quenched! You mention manufacturing difficulties polishing smaller facets. But this only exacerbates the near field! (for reasons I wrote above "However, (a) because..."). You didn't comment that my (I'd say - key) paragraph, and you forgot to boast how you managed to get the near field then!  (especially if it's so much aggravated by manufacturing difficulties)

Source image redirection from Optical conferences - it's not about your design? I thought your design is kind of "classic" - similar to SR80 (or most other headlights) reflector, with (modern dome-less) rectangular LED, and with horizontally-tossing front lens. Sorry if I missed something great... 

As to 2. software "select angles range" and 3. direct LED visibility - all clear, thanks!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

abvgdee said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Yes, please. This last trail-version photo looks great (it's without lens?). I'd like to see a similar shot for road version. In fact, I don't see here any road version photos. The last (third) photo from your post#189 - is it road, old mold, and tilted up?
> 
> ...


Had been avoiding posting a more recent road reflector because the older photos were using an 1x4 chip, and the newer 1x5 chip has made it much better. However still waiting on the blending lens. We got photos of the successful shot with the correct material, but they need to modify the tool since some tolerances were out of specced range (not on the optic itself however) so yet again, another week until we have some of the lens production samples in our hands.









However I grabbed the camera and fired off some shots. First up is a wall shot showing the uniformity. The light bleed you see above the cutoff is 100% intentional, this is a small bleed of light that illuminates road signs, car reflectors, pedestrian reflectors and more. It is not glaring or causes glaring to oncoming traffic, but lets you ride more comfortably. This is a defacto standard in automotive lighting and required by law (this is why a lot of aftermarket HID projectors fail certification tests actually) for the purpose of sign marking. Otherwise can see why I am waiting on my blending lens. It'll soften up the outer edges and bleed the light together as shown in the simulations I've posted earlier.









Next up is a shot of the light aimed maybe 7-8m away towards my garage door. Shows the uniformity of the nearfield (and the width) as well as the sharp cutoff. Keen eyes can spot the small sign marking light bleed. Notice how it's not as "bright" as it seemed on the up close wall shot? And how some jagged edges on the up close shot seem to melt away at distance? This is why an up close wall shot can help give some clues to how the light is designed, but it won't tell the whole story on how it actually performs when illuminating objects in the real world.









Here is the other reason why I am anxiously awaiting the blending lens. The annoying darker gaps to the left and right when showing the further downrange shots I know people would jump on as not being great. But here you go.  This is pointed down my driveway, the neighbors lawn is probably 20 meters away.









------------------------------------

Now for some more reflector details.

The nearfield isn't really some super secret earth shattering new tech that is "patent pending" (like a friend of ours on here a while ago.  ). It is just a culmination of designing with it in mind, as a primary goal, along with some amazing manufacturing partners who can bring my rather complex reflector to life. The complexity isn't in the shape, it's in the very well made faces that are adhering to the strict curvature that was designed. The earlier issues with the trail reflector were corrected with a small secondary reflector strip similar to what you were discussing with the Saferide I believe. Tiny change, but required a whole new tool, and a whole lot more money. But it fixed it completely.









The Road reflector was actually a bit easier to get the nearfield all blended up on the second try (vs the third on the trail), but larger facets do make it a bit easier to control vs the thousands of facets approach that I used on the trail. Here is a GIF that I put together that shows the source image (the yellow LED face) being reflected on the reflector. Can see how different reflectors are doing different work as the light is rotated through. Then once you get level with it, can't see the LED chip source image anymore. 


















-----------------

Hope this helps. :thumbsup:


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Yes, thanks. It's not that I was trying to get you acknowledge I'm right. I just was curious (all have problems in the near, why?)

So the trail reflector on the photo is the third version? And the strip is still made of facets? (in SR it's really a smooth (unused) strip, no facets) Is it the very top row?


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Which variant of the A1SB is used?
And when was this chip introduced?
I guess 2016, since that's written on the data sheets.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

angerdan said:


> Which variant of the A1SB is used?
> And when was this chip introduced?
> I guess 2016, since that's written on the data sheets.


We'll be using the 5 die H bin variant, with a target lumen of 1500 and color code 4A which is the warmest white in production right now.

It was introduced in 2016, but couldn't even get our hands on them until mid 2017. Datasheets are always published well in advance of when production parts can even be acquired. You'll see these chips on a lot of OEM headlights in 2019-2020 cars. Most headlight designs are 3 years ahead of the car model year.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Posting over what I sent to all our Kickstarter backers regarding the current shipping status of the lights.



> Hey everyone!
> 
> So the end of March is upon us. We were hoping to be shipping these incredible lights out to you by now, but seems we got ahead of ourselves a bit. However the good news is that we weren't too far off. I guess I'll start this off with the bad news, it is currently looking like *we will not be shipping until the middle of May 2018*. The reason for this is mostly out of our control, though our desire for quality is what also caused the slippage.
> 
> ...


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## Scott Novak (Mar 2, 2013)

Outbound said:


> ...it is currently looking like we will not be shipping until the middle of May 2018. The reason for this is mostly out of our control,...


This is an all too frequent problem in the electronics industry, especially with small startups. It's difficult to imagine all of the different problems that can occur.

A large manufacturer can put in an order for huge quantities of the part that you need and the lead time that you were promised gets bumped way out into the future while the large company gets the parts that you were promised. Then when you do actually receive your parts they might not meet their specifications and you have to return them. Or they misread your order and made you the wrong version of the part which doesn't fit your PWB.

Then the parts companies also have their own supply and equipment problems, not to mention possible strikes by employees.

I can remember back in the late 1990's auto manufacturers started putting hundreds of semiconductors into autos, often performing
unnecessary things such as auto dimming interior lights, etc. It caused a semiconductor shortage and computer power supply manufacturers were scrambling to find the semiconductors to keep their production lines running. There was the grey market where people were selling semiconductors at prices way above the manufacturers price. Basically they were scalping semiconductors.

So have some empathy and patience for Outbound Lighting.

Scott Novak


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

How about an grey or even white t-shirt?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Scott Novak said:


> This is an all too frequent problem in the electronics industry, especially with small startups. It's difficult to imagine all of the different problems that can occur.


Certainly is. We anticipated some delays, but not this big. Was a bummer, but nothing much we can do except accept it and keep pushing forward. Can't get mad at our supplier since they are beholden to the components distributor, who are beholden to the original source, if not another layer or two of sales in between.

However it is one of the reasons we selected a PCBA supplier that is only a few hours away rather than overseas. They are a few bucks more expensive, but the ability to meet directly with them, check out the assembly process, meet the employees, and get them excited about the product is well worth the couple thousand in savings.



> How about an grey or even white t-shirt?


Certainly a possibility in the future. Right now just doing a run of enough shirts to go around for the Kickstarter backers who ordered it, some to sell on the site, and some for personal use. Once we are shipping and finally "open for business" we can definitely look into more colors and designs.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Got our first run of t-shirts in! These feel absolutely incredible. Kyle (ZenkiS14) refused to let me compromise on the shirts to save a few bucks. I'm glad he did! Literally the most comfortable shirt I own now. Just happy it has my company logo on there. 

Anyways, if you guys want them, they are available on the webstore now and shipping!

*AVAILABLE HERE!*


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Outbound said:


> Got our first run of t-shirts in! These feel absolutely incredible. Kyle (ZenkiS14) refused to let me compromise on the shirts to save a few bucks. I'm glad he did! Literally the most comfortable shirt I own now. Just happy it has my company logo on there.
> 
> Anyways, if you guys want them, they are available on the webstore now and shipping!
> 
> ...


I saw the email, hopefully yours is in the wash now after 3 days of use 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

hahahaha I wore mine for 3 days straight...it was glorious.

Edit: WTF at the product pics on website! Ugh, lol FML


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Outbound said:


> Got our first run of t-shirts in!


Caps. You need caps. I need a cap. No mesh.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

ZenkiS14 said:


> hahahaha I wore mine for 3 days straight...it was glorious.
> 
> Edit: WTF at the product pics on website! Ugh, lol FML


Um... I wouldnt have admitted that. Outbound at least has an excuse for wearing the same clothes for 3 days. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Anticipating the arrival of my new Outbound lights I got an accessory for the road version!
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Not only do you have a huge assortment of lights, you have a huge selection of bikes!!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Vancbiker said:


> Not only do you have a huge assortment of lights, you have a huge selection of bikes!!


Are you realllllyyyyy a biker if you don't though?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Are you realllllyyyyy a* biker* if you don't though?


In my case "hoarder" may be a more appropriate term!
Mole


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

MRMOLE said:


> In my case "hoarder" may be a more appropriate term!
> Mole


Checkmate (3 bikes in the other room...lol)


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

ok thats my dream "man cave" right there lol.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Outbound said:


> Are you realllllyyyyy a biker if you don't though?


True! I only have 4 and sad to say only 2 are in active rotation


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Got myself a lightbox a week or two ago, and finally got some time to update the product photos!

Good news is that we are on the schedule with the PCBA production facility in Kansas City for early to mid-May. Barring any issues that come up in assembly (very low risk) we are on track to have all the orders fulfilled by the end of May!


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

Awesome news!!!


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Damn the anticipation is overwhelming. I wanna light up the streets!!! Looks amazing!

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

I think it's time for an email update (for those that don't hit the forum thread.

Seriously, I just want to hear you say again that shipments will be going out SOON...


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

Yea, we'll try to get an email blast out soon. We have been sending updates via Kickstarter.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Flamingtaco said:


> I think it's time for an email update (for those that don't hit the forum thread.
> 
> Seriously, I just want to hear you say again that shipments will be going out SOON...


I agree.

Will put something together tomorrow morning to blast both KS and email to the pre-orders.

Overall things are still looking up. Awaiting the final production date of the PCB's which will occur within the next week or two. In the meantime all of our reflectors and lenses showed up, which means we have every single "hard" part in stock and ready to go. Literally only waiting on the PCB's.

Our shipping boxes also arrived, custom made locally and stamped with our logo. Surprisingly after the initial logo fee, it's the same price as buying a generic box from ULine. So everything will be shipped in a perfect fitting box for the carrying case. I'm kinda proud of it. Looks killer.

We also underwent some pretty extreme thermal and water ingress testing. Thermally handled things like a champ. In the extreme heat and no air movement, the integrated thermistor does it's job and pulls back power when it detects the LED getting too hot. Water ingress was an interesting story.









On the IP4 setting it worked great, no obvious signs of water intrustion. IP4 rating states "Water splashing against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect." However once we ramped the testing up to IP5 water was starting to get in. IP5 is powerful water jets spraying against the housing in all directions. I'll get a video of the testing up soon on the YouTube channel, but it was a pretty intense water pressure jet spraying directly onto the status light pipe section. Some teardown reveals that the water was starting to get in from that section, as well as some fogging due to the extreme humidity difference.









So I am REALLY glad we did this testing, I have a number of things that will be done to prevent water intrusion, and make it truly IP5 or IP6 rated for water ingress. We will be adding an automotive gore patch to the housing after machining out a small hole to allow the pressure differential to be equal between the outside and inside. This means on a rainy day or really humid day, the pressure can equalize and prevent the inside of the light fogging up.

We will also be adding the additional step of conformal coating the driver board to add an extra layer of protection and reliability. I am not aware of any other bike lights that are currently doing this, although fairly common in the automotive space.

There are two other things I will be doing to address water ingress around the status light to prevent it from happening period.

Good news is that none of these things will delay production at all. They are all just steps that are being added to the production process. We don't have to redesign any parts, or tool up new parts.

----------------------------

I hope this does show that when we say we are testing our lights, we aren't simply just running them under a faucet for a second or two and calling it IP69 rated, or hitting it with a garden hose like you see in almost every bike light review. Real IP rating testing is quite unforgiving. I'll get the video up soon, but you'll be surprised how intense IP4 and IP5 water intrusion testing is, it's really high pressure and high intensity streams of water blasting the housing from all sides.

Testing like this is what we believe will really set our lights apart. When we say reliable and durable, we mean it.


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## Scott Novak (Mar 2, 2013)

Outbound,

You don't see conformal coating very often with consumer grade or aftermarket electronics. Normally that is reserved for military, industrial, medical, or other high reliability electronics.

About the only thing that you haven't done yet is to pot the electronics in thermally conductive potting compound. That not only drastically improves thermal transfer, but it also drastically improves vibrational resistance. But it's possible that your mount may provide enough isolation that it won't prove necessary.

If you ever do decide to pot your electronics do NOT give in to temptation and try to cure it faster at elevated temperatures. That can cause swelling of the potting compound which can deform the case and/or put addition pressure against some components. Room temperature cure only.

Those water tests are impressive.

I used a gallon jug to pour water on a Serfas taillight at a distance of 1 foot. A serious amount of water ingressed around the power switch. I've had their tailights fail before due to water infiltration on the PWB, which caused a conductive layer to form across the PWB that shorted out part of the circuit and caused it to fail.

It's refreshing to see a manufacturer that actually cares about reliability.

Scott Novak


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Your transparency is refreshing! Everything about this light looks awesome, every detail is in place. One of the rare occasions when you are buying something without that 'if they only did it like that' moments.
Great job guys!

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Thanks for the kind words guys. Will admit I was super bummed out for like an hour or so when it was failing the testing. Then realized well, glad I caught it now rather than after we've shipped 180 of these things! As well as the fact it was an easy fix, won't add a lot of cost, and will only increase reliability.

I really honestly don't want any of these lights returned for failures or anything, it's just a big headache for business. I'd rather be focused on designing the NEXT great light instead of dealing with warranty and returns. So if it means a couple more bucks per light, and a few more minutes of production time... worth it.


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## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

Is there something special about the PCB's that there are component supply issues? We can get new custom ones at work for a LED project we're working on in no time.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cerpss said:


> Is there something special about the PCB's that there are component supply issues? We can get new custom ones at work for a LED project we're working on in no time.


Guess I am probably using some poorly picked terminology. The PCB's themselves showed up in no time, it's all the components that have the long lead time. Notably the actual LED chips themselves.

Funny story that actually. I now realize why the lead time probably shot up tremendously, all the new 2019 RAM 1500 LED headlights have the Altilon chips in them. So I have a feeling Automotive Lighting bought up most of the stock!


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Expected delivery date = ?


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

I'm curious about components back-order procedures. You place an order at a dealer (suppose the order is rather small, 500 LEDs), pay. And then what if the dealer doesn't ship the order by some date? During the order, can you demand some form of monetary warranty for not shipping the order by some date? I can imagine the dealer could "forward" any such monetary claims further to manufacturer. Or they normally explicitly disclaim any responsibilities?


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## Scott Novak (Mar 2, 2013)

You are pretty much at the mercy of the suppliers unless you are a huge company with lots of clout. They will promise you anything, but it arrives when it arrives. I would order from multiple suppliers and then when one batch arrived I would cancel the other orders that didn't arrive by the promised date. Even then the first order to arrive would be a month late. I once had to wait a year for a part that was promised a 6 week delivery time. Sometimes you have to buy on the grey market above the manufacturers wholesale price to even get any.

At one company that I worked for we even had to change the design because we couldn't get the part in time.

Scott A. Novak


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

abvgdee said:


> I'm curious about components back-order procedures. You place an order at a dealer (suppose the order is rather small, 500 LEDs), pay. And then what if the dealer doesn't ship the order by some date? During the order, can you demand some form of monetary warranty for not shipping the order by some date? I can imagine the dealer could "forward" any such monetary claims further to manufacturer. Or they normally explicitly disclaim any responsibilities?


Like what Scott said, the electrical designer releases the bill of materials (BOM), the SMT production house goes over the BOM, works with big distributors like Arrow or Future Electronics to figure out the lead time on components. Even some very random components like a small capacitor might have a lead time of 18-26 weeks. So the SMT house and the designer go back and forth trying to eliminate the long lead items, this what delayed us at first, a few capacitors and small components got redesigned, and re-tested before releasing a final BOM to the SMT house.

Then the components are ordered, the SMT house waits until everything arrives, then puts together production kits. Basically big carts that have all the components on reels that are ready to load into the SMT machine. Currently as of 5 days ago the LED board production kit was released to production and awaiting a production schedule date. I believe our driver board is about ready to get released into production as well.

It is surprising to a lot of people that electrical stuff is often the longest lead items out there. But like scott said, we are at the mercy of the distributor essentially, and often they focus more on the multi-million dollar contracts rather than the breadcrumbs that small run stuff like ours gives them.



> Expected delivery date = ?


Still at the mercy of the SMT supply house. Fingers crossed still delivering in less than 2 weeks. I'm getting anxious.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

The above all jives with my experiences too in getting specific electonic/electrical items. One conversation I had after finding out a timer relay had a 16 week lead time. 

Me: Why 16 weeks?
Manufacturer: Well, not much demand.
Me: Wanna know why you don't have much demand?
Manufacturer: Uh, why?
Me: Because your lead time is too long!

Perfect Catch-22.

And just like the above examples this required a minor board re-design because the footprint of the socket for a more easily available timer relay was larger. Delayed the project a bit and so on.

Outbound appears to be doing as much as a small startup could be expected to do.


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Scott Novak said:


> I once had to wait a year for a part that was promised a 6 week delivery time.


I'm glad I don't promise to customers (or design) any electronics! May be manufacturers should really be more open about their fabrication capacities...

Thank you guys for clarifications!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

So funny we are having this discussion today. Literally just got an email from our SMT house saying that the LED board is set for production on Wednesday (7 jobs ahead of it on the schedule currently) however the main IC for the driver board was scheduled to show up on the 10th to the supplier and then immediately sent to the SMT house. However apparently it has not even left the factory yet. Just an example of the stuff that we have no control over.

However LED boards basically done soon! I'm going to have to really clean up our assembly area more and get things in place. It's almost time to get cranking! Got 180+ orders to fulfill between the kickstarter backers and the pre-orders. I'm hoping to get at least 40-50 done a day, then allow the process improvements to kick in once we really start figuring out how to crank these things out. Target assembly time is under 10 minutes per light when done in batch construction. Part of the entire design of the light was to make it easy enough to assemble so that we'll basically never have to think about outsourcing our labor.

Also to those of you on the fence. As soon as the first orders start going out to the kickstarter backers, the pre-ordering is over, and the discount is removed. So consider this a few week warning.


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## Scott Novak (Mar 2, 2013)

One saving grace is that circuit board quality has greatly improved. In the early 80's we would often see shorts between circuit foils because the etching wasn't complete. It was so bad that we tested EVERY single raw circuit board for shorts before sending the boards to assembly.

Scott Novak


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Hey Matt,
Was wondering if you have parts available to put together a road and trail production sample with the 5x emitter and blending lens? Would be great if you could entertain us with some true to production beam shots and lux measurements while we wait (patiently). 
Mole


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Yeeey, survey is out, so close to having the best light in my city  if i only had ds500 at my back, to bad its discontinued  Could you OL make something similar?
Think i got hooked on bike lights 

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> Hey Matt,
> Was wondering if you have parts available to put together a road and trail production sample with the 5x emitter and blending lens? Would be great if you could entertain us with some true to production beam shots and lux measurements while we wait (patiently).
> Mole


I did go for a walk in my backyard with the trail version to give it a shot. I'm hoping to hit a trail here soon to get some good pics with a real camera instead of my iphone. Hard to find time with a 3 month old baby! It's still maddening that I will basically never pickup the very subtle light that your eye sees off to the side on a camera.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BizzLXuBtVJ/

One neat thing about the silicone material and my curved lens design, is that it is throwing light beyond 180*. I honestly didn't really plan this in, but it's been a nice side effect.  Is it enough to consider not using a helmet light if you like looking behind you to see 40' away? Nope. But it's enough that your periphery vision has light to work with and pick up objects near you, so with that combined with the large light field that fills the binocular vision really does make it so that your vision is almost tricked into thinking you are riding at sunset/low-light.

I was feeling kinda bummed about missing our deadlines and the looming massive production schedule ahead, but getting outside and using the light that I've now spent over a year (and a lot of money) on designing and producing put a smile on my face. Really looking forward to others first impressions.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MrBucan said:


> Yeeey, survey is out, so close to having the best light in my city  if i only had ds500 at my back, to bad its discontinued  Could you OL make something similar?
> Think i got hooked on bike lights
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


I mean... if people really pay $230 for a tail light I'll have to seriously consider it!


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Outbound said:


> I mean... if people really pay $230 for a tail light I'll have to seriously consider it!


To be honest, that light was overpriced, but i like that you could make your own patterns and it was realy visible even during the day. But there is no need for programming in headlight if the lumen lvls are setup good. One could even say so for tail lights...

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

MrBucan said:


> To be honest, that light was overpriced, ....


Not a fair statement. Yes, the light was expensive, but not overpriced. Overpriced would imply that the manufacturer was taking excessive profit from the product and that it could sell for less. It is rare that a manufacturer ceases production of overly profitable products.

I'm quite sure that Designshine looked at the hard costs associated with his product and the hours invested and realized that there was not enough profit in it to make it worthwhile to continue production.


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

My mistake, i guess i used wrong adjective, not my mother language so excuse me. I am sure the price was fair compared to his expenses, he made those lights in small numbers so costs must be higher compared to comercial lights. I just think something similar could be made at a lower price point. I dont make lights, so thats just my guess, but would like something similar.

Sorry for the offtopic. There are still plenty of good tail lights, but not a lot of road lights, i dont know any at a price point of Focal Series with its features.

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> I was feeling kinda bummed about missing our deadlines and the looming massive production schedule ahead, but getting outside and using the light that I've now spent over a year (and a lot of money) on designing and producing put a smile on my face. Really looking forward to others first impressions.


Most new lights that I've ordered (especially preorders), even from existing manufacturers end up missing initial projected release dates. Part of the game that you shouldn't feel bad about. Taking the time to post pictures and explaining the situation always helps. Appreciate you keeping us informed!
Mole


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## Precision Man (Apr 9, 2015)

If you want to capture a photo which shows more of the low lux light off to the edge, you are going to need to perform some photographic trickery in the form of a high dynamic range (HDR) photo. You will need to put your camera on a tripod and depending on your camera's settings you may be able to just tell it to take an HDR photo or you may have to take 3 images with different exposure settings and then combine them together in your computer. Now this is a trick, no bones about it, but if you manually adjust your exposure and computer HDR settings and use the same settings every time, you will be able to make images which can honestly allow you to compare different light outputs from your light or a competitor's light. I have one of your lights on order and I have a lot of buddies with a wide range of lights so I am hoping to do a comparison review this summer with the above methodology. 

Thank you for the hard work and frequent status updates, you are filling me with much more confidence that this will be a good product than I have had from my previous Kickstarter experiences.


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Offtopic below.



Precision Man said:


> I have one of your lights on order and I have a lot of buddies with a wide range of lights so I am hoping to do a comparison review this summer with the above methodology.


Sounds like you are going to make it a (rather big) comparison database project.

This methology is *_certainly_* better than no HDR, and better than no comparison, and is probably great for small light comparison job. But, if you consider it as a big *_project_*, there is a problem here:

With your scenery, your camera and HDR software settings fixed by *_your_* setup, everybody is restricted to use such photos from *_only you_*. If I currently have a headlight that you don't have, and I'd like to see how a new light compares with it, your photos are useless for me.

There are few additional downsides.
1. What if I *love* the sharp cutoff, and I'd like to see, how much thinner the new cutoff is, compared with my old light? The whole cutoff line, its sides and the center. Essentially, I want the wall beamshot here.
2. How much brighter the hotspot (or a bit above, or some other direction) of the new light is? In numbers, like 140lux vs. 90lux of my old light. Your HDR-blended greys (from that mega-powerful professional photo software) won't tell, even if it would be a wall shot.
3. Next month that great public scenery place that you found, will be renovated, so all appearance will change. There is a new light that you absolutely want to add to your comparison database. Will you re-shoot all your old lights with new scenery?
4. (new=UPD; re-phrase of the main problem) I want to contribute my beamshots to your project. Or you abandon your project in a year, and I want to take over it, and add my beamshots. But I live far away, I don't have your expensive photo software, and my camera has different beautifying contrast firmware. I can't, because everything is locked on you. Wouldn't it be sweet if people could add to and reuse your efforts?

I think I see the solution. It's not easy, it's laborious. But it seems obvious to me...


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

abvgdee said:


> I want the wall beamshot here


The purpose of the reflector design is to archive a great beam on the floor. Wall beamshots are useless to show the real beam shape.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

angerdan said:


> The purpose of the reflector design is to archive a great beam on the floor. Wall beamshots are useless to show the real beam shape.


Another problem with the wall shots with this light in particular is the blending lens. Up close on a wall it looks like a lot of artifacts and lines, however when in actual use, it all comes together in a homogeneous beam pattern. Can often see this with newer LED headlights on cars too. They look funky up close on a garage wall, but on the road all comes together.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

I saw a new Dodge Ram yesterday and thought “hey there’s my bike lights” lol


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

I got 500 LED boards sitting in my production area now..... butttt still missing 500 driver boards. :madman: As I mentioned earlier, the processor chip hadn't even left the factory. However got word that they are showing up today (Friday) and so that means the driver boards should be run and shipped by the mid to end of next week.

So what does that mean? Assembly time! I hope to still meet the goal of getting the first units shipped out by the end of May, even if it's 11:50pm on the 31st! 

Meanwhile I did go for a quick ride tonight, literally the first ride I've had since.... November? Long winter, new baby, this new business, and lots of design work for other projects meant the air deflated out of my Stache and dust collected. Knocked all that off and had a great hour riding around.

The light is meeting all my targets, it is clearly a light that won't win allocates when comparing pure numbers or distance awards because of how I directed the energy with a focus on homogeneity and smooth blend. What is extremely apparent after riding around for as little as 5 minutes, is how much I absolutely hate spot like lights. The wide width and homogeneous beam really does make it just a lot more natural to ride with than a typical spot beam pattern. This is 100% going to be a light that needs people to ride it to really SEE the massive difference a properly shaped beam pattern will do.

Something I really pray reviewers in magazines and online publications will actually do rather than just shooting a beam shot, measuring a lux, and calling it a day.

Anyways, onto some pics!









Don't mind the tree, tough to do this alone out in the woods!








I wanted to take a pic looking down off angle with the previous picture as a reference for how off-angle the post is in relation to where the light is aimed. This is a better representation of what your eye would actually see.








This is a bad picture of the road/cutoff beam pattern, didn't realize it was out of focus until I got home. Anyways, compare this to the next photo which is the Trail to get a better idea of how the intensities and compression of light energy is different. Both photos shot at locked settings (1/25, f3.5, ISO 6200)
















The road version compresses all that light that goes upward in the trail, and focuses it more on overcoming ambient light found in cities, towns, greenways, etc. while the trail relies on the fact that it doesn't have to overcome ambient, and your eyes can adjust to the dark much quicker.

Just a reminder to those sitting on the fence. As soon as these lights start getting to the kickstarter backers, the 15% pre-order is overrrrrr.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Big thanks for the beam shots. Looks good to me so far and happy to hear it won't be long now till we get out hands on these lights. Definitely understand your quality of light compared to big lux numbers comment. I've posted many times that for a bar light my best visibility is achieved with 1200-1500 lumens and more than that amount usually results in too much counter productive reflective glare. Big max. lux numbers has its place for mtn. biking and that's on a helmet for me. Road version looks like it may have some potential for that (I plan on trying it out there) but also no shortage of excellent traditional style/configured throwers available to compliment your mtn. version. Thanks for the update!
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Okay guys, now I am getting nervous/excited. The driver boards are being run on the production line tomorrow! After breakout and testing we hope to get the first partial shipment sent or recieved by Friday or Saturday. IF these things arrive on time, I hope to have the first few runs of the lights in production and out the door Monday. If the parts don't arrive till Monday because of shipping delay, aka they don't ship on weekends, then the first batches will be made Monday night and I'll be spending Tuesday and Wednesday getting the majority of the orders out.

So with that in mind, I am officially going to be CLOSING THE PRE-ORDER FRIDAY NIGHT! Last chance! And hopefully by next weekend the majority of you will be riding around with these lights.


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## Tunnelrat81 (Nov 13, 2011)

That's great news.  It sounds like once the boards arrive, they'll be ready to ship within a day or two, which suggests that you have the assembly started already...?

Oh, and in case you're suspicious, we're not anxious or excited about these lights or anything. 

-Jeremy


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Tunnelrat81 said:


> That's great news.  It sounds like once the boards arrive, they'll be ready to ship within a day or two, which suggests that you have the assembly started already...?
> 
> Oh, and in case you're suspicious, were not anxious or excited about these lights or anything.
> 
> -Jeremy


Yep, I've done all the prep work for assembly over the last few weeks. Stations are ready, programming jigs developed, thermal transfer material cut out, inventory laid out, sub-assemblies made, etc.

Boxes are ready, production batches developed, shipping station all setup, stamps.com account pre-funded (forgot how much shipping costs till you add up how much it's going to be to ship out 180+ boxes in one day....). Literally been waiting for these boards to show up so that we can just drop the drivers in, program it, and assemble the last step.


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## Scott Novak (Mar 2, 2013)

@Outbound,

Don't forget to GET SOME SLEEP! Better to be a day or two late than to ship out a defective product. 

You have a new product that you really aren't familiar with yet, and it's easy to make a mistake. A month from you will probably be able to spot an error across the room.

Scott Novak


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

...so in the post on the bottom of the last page, the top image is the Road Model and bottom is the Trail Model, correct? 

Again where I live the city has installed those new LED elements in their streetlights which have a very tight light cone compared to older more diffuse ones (the whole "light pollution" thing). Some streets have maybe one per block (usually at intersections) so most of the block is dark (particularly due to the fact Portland has a lot of of trees). This is why I am wondering which would be better for me, the Road or Trail model as I like to be able to see signs reflected in down the road as well as low overhanging branches (yes in some areas those are a hazard), not sure the cutoff beam will catch that. 

Have you done any dark "tunnel tests" like MBTR did?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

BC Shelby said:


> ...so in the post on the bottom of the last page, the top image is the Road Model and bottom is the Trail Model, correct?
> 
> Again where I live the city has installed those new LED elements in their streetlights which have a very tight light cone compared to older more diffuse ones (the whole "light pollution" thing). Some streets have maybe one per block (usually at intersections) so most of the block is dark (particularly due to the fact Portland has a lot of of trees). This is why I am wondering which would be better for me, the Road or Trail model as I like to be able to see signs reflected in down the road as well as low overhanging branches (yes in some areas those are a hazard), not sure the cutoff beam will catch that.
> 
> Have you done any dark "tunnel tests" like MBTR did?


It is correct, however the image isn't the best, mostly because it makes the width look a lot smaller. The higher range of bright/dark makes it harder for the camera to pick up the width.

However I wouldn't confuse the cutoff line as total pitch darkness above it. Just like on automotive lighting there is a small amount of light thrown upwards to reflect road signs, and would be more than enough to catch low lying branches. The light amount is small enough it won't show on a camera or video, but in person it is noticeable. The silicone lens also works to soften up the cutoff line and tossing a little light all around.

I haven't done any tunnel tests, mostly because I don't have any tunnels near me.  Been trying to figure out the best way to capture the cutoff line and the difference between the two beam patterns in a way that is a bit more professional than shining it against my garage wall. A close up wall shot doesn't tell the whole story of how it's illuminating the ground in front, and long distance range .


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

...true cameras don't quite do justice in such tests. The reason I mentioned the tunnel test as it really does show more of the beam pattern well. The next best is a straight dark roadway or drive using chalk markings or other items at progressive distance intervals and a pole or placard at a distance from where the light(s) are with a bit reflective material on them. 

I do understand the cutoff principle so as not to create excessive glare for oncoming traffic. I used to ride with a Jet Starfire Dual (still have the light head & battery but the charger burned out and Jet Lites is now out of business). I often had to turn off the spot (which was aimed a bit higher) when there was an oncoming vehicle (wasn't unusual for the driver of a car to flash his/her high beams at me to get me to turn mine off if I forgot). The flood unit did produce a pretty decent wide cone though still not nearly as wide as wide as the Outbound. Also, being a Halogen, it got really hot (I could see steam coming off the light head when it rained) and required more power to drive (I believe it only had a 1hr 10 min duration with both beams on).

Speaking of rain, I liked seeing the water test. As Portland is also rather rainy, one of the things that sold me on the Dual Starfire was it's ability to handle wet conditions, however the lenses would fog up in prolonged damp conditions.

So do you have a measurement of how far the cutoff is from the light when properly mounted?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

BC Shelby said:


> So do you have a measurement of how far the cutoff is from the light when properly mounted?


Do you mean how far the beam should illuminate something? Technically the cutoff should be mounted horizontal to the ground, making it so that on a flat plane, by definition the cutoff is basically infinite.

This is a terrible "test" but we did this months ago on the way back from a night ride with some of the early prototypes. This was actually before we even had the 5-die Altilon chips even, so this is roughly 75% of the actual light power.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BbhtUNHFq-o/

Basically showing the brightness of two car headlights vs a guy hanging out the window with a pre-production road light, while shot with an iphone...


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

...that is pretty impressive. Just about the same distance and at only about 3/4 the power.


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

Outbound said:


> Do you mean how far the beam should illuminate something? Technically the cutoff should be mounted horizontal to the ground, making it so that on a flat plane, by definition the cutoff is basically infinite.
> 
> This is a terrible "test" but we did this months ago on the way back from a night ride with some of the early prototypes. This was actually before we even had the 5-die Altilon chips even, so this is roughly 75% of the actual light power.
> 
> ...


:facepalm:


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Outbound said:


> .....Basically showing the brightness of two car headlights vs a guy hanging out the window with a pre-production road light, while shot with an iphone...


Couldn't watch the video, won't play for me. Description reminds me of playing around with my current helmet light a few years ago. Held it out the window while driving 60+mph on a Nevada desert highway with the truck headlights off. Plenty to drive by...


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Outbound said:


> Technically the cutoff should be mounted horizontal to the ground, making it so that on a flat plane, by definition the cutoff is basically infinite.


In an alternate reality where all roads are perfectly level and active suspensions are in all conveyances to keep them perfectly level, I would agree.

In this reality with headlamps blasting out up to 3600 lumens highly concentrated at the cutoff, I've got to agree with the states that require vehicle inspections that include headlamp aiming and require some degree of drop in the beam. The nature of our roads (bumpy, undulating, speed hump infested) and vehicles dictates either a beam leveling system with a touch of drop in the beam, or moderate drop for non-leveling systems.

We are a society that ignores most warnings, like the ones on the door of our vehicles that lists the maximum load we can place over the axles. Not that one must overload an axle to create headlamp aim issues... Due to the weight of the engine, the center of balance front to rear of most vehicles tends to be under or forward of the driver's seat. The second you put one person in a rear seat, even a child, or maybe a groceries in the trunk, you've changed your headlamp aim 2-4 degrees. We pay a price for comfort and stability in the form of load capacity.

We should aim cut-off bike lights down as well. Ever have a car cresting a hill blind you for an uncomfortable amount of time? That vehicle probably only had enough of a load to change the headlamp beam one degree, which would place the beam over 8 feet higher at 500 ft distance. A difference of the main beam hitting the ground at your feet Vs. being perfectly aimed at your face.

Our handlebars place bike lamps close to head height for those driving sedans. If you run your beam level, you are going to blind a good percentage of drivers.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Flamingtaco said:


> In an alternate reality where all roads are perfectly level and active suspensions are in all conveyances to keep them perfectly level, I would agree.
> 
> In this reality with headlamps blasting out up to 3600 lumens highly concentrated at the cutoff, I've got to agree with the states that require vehicle inspections that include headlamp aiming and require some degree of drop in the beam. The nature of our roads (bumpy, undulating, speed hump infested) and vehicles dictates either a beam leveling system with a touch of drop in the beam, or moderate drop for non-leveling systems.
> 
> ...


That is kind of what I was trying (poorly) to allude to, that real world conditions change the distance of the "cutoff to the light". On cars the aim adjustment is different depending on height, trucks are legally required to be aimed 1-2* below the horizontal, but the edge of the cutoff line is typically right near horizontal. The actual intense hotspot part of the light is 1-2* below the cutoff. This is a quick screenshot on vehicle loads and aim from a presentation by a doctorate engineer over at North American Lighting (NAL) which is part of Koito, if you have a japanese car, most likely have Koito headlights.









As for the bike lights, the mounting system is strong enough that it won't vibrate loose, but also loose enough to adjust the cutoff based on the conditions you are in quickly, or to suit your preferences of really strong lighting up close where you are doing fairly slow riding in which you'd aim the cutoff down a bit more (city riding for example), or can aim the cutoff a bit more close to the horizontal for those high speed road rides in the sticks where you need more distance.


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## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

I had an unexpected email notification from UPS that I was getting a package today. My instant thought was you surprised us and our lights shipped early. A little research quickly turned things to disappointment that it was my work AMEX card.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Sorry to disappoint! 

Digikey delayed my order of thermal interface material, and the driver boards are now scheduled to show up Monday. So will be getting all the boxes ready, shipping labels, costs added up, the rest of the preparation and more this weekend.

We are closing the pre-orders in about 3 hours, *nearly 200 of you guys ordered over the last 6 months!* and I can't thank you enough. It has been about 15 months since this started as a spark, a sketch, and then some quick 3D models. I thought for sure we'd knock this out in about 8-9 months given my experience with product development. Lessons learned.

Almost there!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Our driver boards show up today, been hitting refresh on the tracking number all morning! Got 100 lights all prepped and ready to go this weekend along with getting all our shipping stuff squared away. Will be programming and doing final assembly of the first batch of lights tonight and hopefully the first orders out!

Time for some pics!

































That is a picture showing the production area we have setup. The pink squares are Laird thermal transfer material that goes on both sides of the main LED board to properly sink the heat to the casting.

Also snuck away for an hour to a local exotic car show with the family and ended up basically filling up my entire phone with pictures of the different headlight configurations. Here are some interesting shots to note! Why? Cause they are all using the Lumiled Altilon chips! The same ones being used in this headlight.

This was on a Porsche 911 GT3 I believe








BMW M4 for this one


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## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

Awesome! Your competitors had better go back to the drawing board. I used to throw away money buying all of the big-name lights but no more. Lupine, in particular, is going to have to re-evaluate their over-priced and under-performing products.

Thanks, Outbound!


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

...nice.


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## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

I saw the kickstarter update email saying 18 people haven't filled out the questionaire so you don't have their shipping info. I think I filled it out months ago but how would one confirm they have?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cerpss said:


> I saw the kickstarter update email saying 18 people haven't filled out the questionaire so you don't have their shipping info. I think I filled it out months ago but how would one confirm they have?


If you are one of the ones who bought just the lighthead only, then I most likely have your information. Only one person who got a lighthead hasn't responded (despite a message directly sent as well). You can PM me your name and email used for the order and I can double check.


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

...will we be able to find these in cycle shops soon?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

BC Shelby said:


> ...will we be able to find these in cycle shops soon?


We are going to be focusing on scaling appropriately. That means mostly direct sales at the moment to repay the debts from our investment into making a bunch of these, however working with some local bike shops. Once we have the kinks ironed out and got a good business flow humming then we'll start trying to work with more shops, and hopefully some distribtors.

I do want to build a long lasting company that will be known for high quality lights, and if anything like this experience has taught me, we gotta take it slow and not jump into things that might get us in over our heads, like trying to link up with a large distribtor to get into local bike shops across the country without a plan in place to be able to crank out hundreds of these a day.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

So made the decision to just focus on getting all of our production orders complete before shipping stuff, that way we aren't just splitting time and getting off-track in terms of work flow. We are currently halfway through the production run of the first batch and will be working tirelessly over the weekend to finish it up and start slapping shipping stickers on the boxes.

We are having a local release party tonight for the local friends who bought lights to get their first units. If anyone is in the St. Louis area, we'll be at Trailhead Brewery in St. Charles (next to bangert island trail) at 7:30 tonight celebrating this big milestone of ours. Been almost 15 months since the first idea of "what if we made a bike light?", felt like this day was only a few months away at the time. 

I think the real big feeling is going to be Monday or tuesday when I load up my car with hundreds of boxes to take to the post office and get out the door. 









(P.S. we really have way more than just 10 packed up, these are just the confirmed local pickup orders.  )


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

Woo!


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## Precision Man (Apr 9, 2015)

This is awesome news! Does that first batch include all of your KS backers? I ask as I'm looking at the calendar and thinking "Wow, I might get to try this new light at NEMBAfest in Vermont!"

Congratulations on reaching this amazing milestone, have fun riding tonight and don't forget to sleep this weekend!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Precision Man said:


> This is awesome news! Does that first batch include all of your KS backers? I ask as I'm looking at the calendar and thinking "Wow, I might get to try this new light at NEMBAfest in Vermont!"
> 
> Congratulations on reaching this amazing milestone, have fun riding tonight and don't forget to sleep this weekend!


We are fulfilling all the kickstarter backers first, as they are the ones who've been waiting since November and December, then all the online orders will follow. Shouldn't be a big disparity between the times as once we get the full production run complete it's just a matter of how fast can we print out a shipping label and wrap it up in a box.

And thank you! Have been trying to remind myself to get to sleep. It's getting rare to find.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

You're probably going to feel like you're giving away your children when you drop them off at the post office!

Congrats!

-Garry


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Congratulations on this achivement! It is rare moment someone make it on it's own and on that scale. Great job.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

garrybunk said:


> You're probably going to feel like you're giving away your children when you drop them off at the post office!
> 
> Congrats!
> 
> -Garry


Get em outtttttt, they are ready to get on their own in the real world. 

Even though it will be terrifying I will admit.

Thank you for the kind words, I do want to remind people that I am in this for the long haul, so when you do get your lights please give me any constructive criticisms and we will be trying our best to continually improve. Got some feature you think would be nice in the software? Let us know and we'll try to bake it into the next production round. Want a change to the beam pattern? Describe it and I'll look into what it'll take to modify if I get enough people wanting something different.

Experience a failure? Abso****inlutely let me know and we'll fix it ASAP, and will want the failed unit back so we can figure out what went wrong and how to prevent it in the future.

We went into this paying a lot higher unit cost at the expense of low inventory so that we have the flexibility to make changes without being stuck with a ton of old inventory, or having to tell people "thanks for the suggestion" but no chance to change it since we have 5000 sitting on the shelf we have to sell in order to make a change for example.

I do certainly hope that there isn't much bad feedback, and everyone is happy, and we can focus on the next round of investment on more products.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Outbound said:


> Get em outtttttt, they are ready to get on their own in the real world.


Can't wait! There is a local night ride next Friday night, hoping to debut this blazing bad-boy! I wish I could buy you a beer tonight but it's a little far. I am KSB#101 and I am ridiculously excited to get this light, I am a bit of a flashlight geek and have run all sorts of bike lights over the years from horrid homebuilts to high end sets. This looks to be far and away the best, better than I ever expected to be available, and for a great price too! The most shocking thing of all is it's from a Kickstarter, and basically a year ahead of schedule by KS standards. Congrats on pulling this off, looking forward to following your lights down the trails for years to come.


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

Outbound said:


> Shouldn't be a big disparity between the times as once we get the full production run complete it's just a matter of how fast can we print out a shipping label and wrap it up in a box.


Any rough estimate when the online orders might follow? I'm planning to ride a 24h race on June 23rd and would love to run these lamps!!!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Velodonata said:


> Can't wait! There is a local night ride next Friday night, hoping to debut this blazing bad-boy! I wish I could buy you a beer tonight but it's a little far. I am KSB#101 and I am ridiculously excited to get this light, I am a bit of a flashlight geek and have run all sorts of bike lights over the years from horrid homebuilts to high end sets. This looks to be far and away the best, better than I ever expected to be available, and for a great price too! The most shocking thing of all is it's from a Kickstarter, and basically a year ahead of schedule by KS standards. Congrats on pulling this off, looking forward to following your lights down the trails for years to come.


I'll make sure you get yours! Hopefully before that event!

Appreciate the kind words! We had our launch party last night, went great, sold a few more lights to people who just wanted to see it in person first. Everyone seemed impressed with the quality of it, the tech behind it, the reflector, the chip size, and how light the actual head is for the size. Should start seeing some reviews come in! Already got some Instagram action going.

This was the road headlight:


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

...looks good. 

Will wait to order until you get all the pre-orders shipped.

BCS


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

I’m assuming everything has passed your performance and quality checks as you’ve boxed and sold light sets locally so that’s good news! Looks like most orders should be received within a week or so. Can’t wait, now the days are so long I’ll have to get up at 3AM or ride around 10pm to play with the new light but whatevs...


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## incubus (Jan 20, 2004)

I just got the most recent KS update. In it, there’s mention that the first 110 backers’ units will ship very soon. I’m backer 99. There is also mention that we should have tracking numbers. I don’t have one. I did however, complete the survey (if you’re referring to the one where I was asked US charger or something else). Should I expect a unit from the first batch?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

PM'ed you 

Then realized my settings for the shipping didn't include automatically sending out the tracking numbers. Got that updated. Now to see if there is a way to retroactively send out another email blast.

If anyone DID actually get a tracking number last night, could you let me know where the email came from?


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Like incubus, I should be in that shipment (backer #26) but didn't see an email beyond KS update #17. I'm not sweating it, though. KS shows my response to the survey questions, so I should be all set.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

:eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster::eekster:


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## Precision Man (Apr 9, 2015)

I just got a tracking number, generated very late last night, from [email protected]

Very exciting!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Precision Man said:


> I just got a tracking number, generated very late last night, from [email protected]
> 
> Very exciting!


Good good, I was able to "resend all notifications" for any of the shipments I printed out last night. Sounds like it went through. Now to correct that time zone.... I was only up till 11pm putting boxes together.


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## Precision Man (Apr 9, 2015)

Haha, so you are still sleeping, very good!


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## Gangleri (Feb 1, 2018)

Just got my tracking number. Barely squeaked into this batch, backer 109, can't wait to test these out.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Precision Man said:


> Haha, so you are still sleeping, very good!


That's a relative term. 

Finished up packing boxes, then up at 5:30 thanks to the 4 month old daughter waking up, and at my full-time job at 7, now will get home and get right back to trying to fulfill the last batch of KS orders. Then produce another small round of lights for all the online orders, THEN will be able to say finally caught up, and open for normal business.


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## russya (May 3, 2007)

I just got mine. Came from [email protected]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kryten (Mar 8, 2012)

Got my tracking # from [email protected]. #28. Can't wait to get mine. Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Great to see things are in final stage. Great job guys! I havent received any mail regarding the tracking number while i am backer #67. Maybe packets to europe get processed slower? I know i am nitpicking but i am so excited to try the lights 

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MrBucan said:


> Great to see things are in final stage. Great job guys! I havent received any mail regarding the tracking number while i am backer #67. Maybe packets to europe get processed slower? I know i am nitpicking but i am so excited to try the lights
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


Probably should have clarified that not shipping these out in the exact order they were ordered (even though I know that's what is implied based on my KS update, my bad). I got all the Trail Editions with US & Euro chargers, Combo packs with US charger, and Road Edition with US Chargers out yesterday. Working in larger batches like that let me be much more efficient.

Tonight is all the Road with Euro Chargers, Combo packs with Euro Chargers, and then individual lightheads going out. Then will need to do another small production run to fulfill all the online pre-orders through the website.

So long story short, you should see a generated tracking number tonight in like 8 hours.


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Gotchya, makes sense and packaging goes smoother. Well i am counting days, hours, minutes, seconds...

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Alright guys, it's 11:30pm here, and I just wrapped up packing up my car with another 50-60-ish orders.

As of now, except for 7 people I haven't heard from, I've completed all the 153 kickstarter backers, and started on the online pre-orders. I have about 20 lights to build tomorrow and complete all the online stuff. Then maybe make another 20 or to start to have on hand..... Then maybe breathe?


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

You have all done a hell of a job so we get our lights as soon as posible and remained transparent troughout this campaign, il buy you a beer if we ever meet 

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MrBucan said:


> You have all done a hell of a job so we get our lights as soon as posible and remained transparent troughout this campaign, il buy you a beer if we ever meet
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


I do appreciate that, though not sure when I'll be in Serbia next!


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

Mine is sched for delivery Thursday! Can’t wait to try it, although I won’t really need it for a few mos.


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## Frisk (Jun 13, 2018)

Had to register here just to say very nice work!
I just arrived at work, and saw a notification about shipping number. I don't really need any bicycle lamps in a couple of months but really locking forward to unpack it! I'm really so tired of the low PWM speed of the Magic Shine I have today, specially in rain, snow and when there are leaves at the ground. Should be nice to have a flicker free light which can be used at high lumens for hours. Don't think the magic shine even holds to and from work with the flicker free highest mode.

Edit:
After reading my notification email, I don't have any link for tracking in mine, anyone else who experienced that? It tells "You can track your package at any time using the link below." But I can't find any link!?


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## textbookonewk (Apr 17, 2009)

Outbound said:


> Alright guys, it's 11:30pm here, and I just wrapped up packing up my car with another 50-60-ish orders.
> 
> As of now, except for 7 people I haven't heard from, I've completed all the 153 kickstarter backers, and started on the online pre-orders. I have about 20 lights to build tomorrow and complete all the online stuff. Then maybe make another 20 or to start to have on hand..... Then maybe breathe?


Great work! Its great to see a start up with this level of commitment and communication to their early customers. I placed an online order a couple of days ago, and I can't wait to put it to use. I would have been a KS backer had I found this thread earlier. It is basically night riding only for the next several months here in Phoenix, so I will being putting this light to good use.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

People are getting their lights, opening their boxes, and tagging us on Instagram. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.








*EDIT* So apparently MTBR doesn't allow GIFs on here. Booo. So here's a direct link


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## Dennis McKim (Dec 26, 2017)

I don’t have mine yet but am thrilled that others have theirs already. I’m getting frequent text updates from USPS, with the most recent one a few minutes ago giving an expected delivery date of Saturday 6/16. 😊😊


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Alright guys, as of 12:45am last night. Every. Single. Order. Is out the door. Over 200+ lights made over the course of several very long days. 

Still have another small batch to make to have on hand, but I think tonight might take a break and just cruise instagram for a while.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Have been holding my breath watching the tracking information. Last 2 USPS handled light orders I've had have arrived in Phoenix on time but then taken side trips to Tucson and Yuma before comming back to Phoenix causing delays from predicted delivery dates. Arrived in Phoenix and was @ my local Post Office early AM so looks like I should have the lights this afternoon. Weather permitting I should get a chance to try out the lights on a ride tonight. Thanks Matt!!! 
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> Have been holding my breath watching the tracking information. Last 2 USPS handled light orders I've had have arrived in Phoenix on time but then taken side trips to Tucson and Yuma before comming back to Phoenix causing delays from predicted delivery dates. Arrived in Phoenix and was @ my local Post Office early AM so looks like I should have the lights this afternoon. Weather permitting I should get a chance to try out the lights on a ride tonight. Thanks Matt!!!
> Mole


Just remember to throw that battery on a charger ASAP! Most of the batteries shipped pretty much depleted, so they'll need at least one good charge to get things up to speed.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Just remember to throw that battery on a charger ASAP! Most of the batteries shipped pretty much depleted, so they'll need at least one good charge to get things up to speed.


Thanks! Luckily I have several batteries that should work with your lights so If I don't get enough time to fully charge the new one it won't stop me from taking the these lights out for a spin. I'm more worried about high winds but if needed will just play indoors with the light meter/DMM/infrared thermometer which I want to do eventually anyway. Last tracking info says "Out for delivery"!!!
Mole


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

MRMOLE said:


> Have been holding my breath watching the tracking information. Last 2 USPS handled light orders I've had have arrived in Phoenix on time but then taken side trips to Tucson and Yuma before comming back to Phoenix causing delays from predicted delivery dates. Arrived in Phoenix and was @ my local Post Office early AM so looks like I should have the lights this afternoon. Weather permitting I should get a chance to try out the lights on a ride tonight. Thanks Matt!!!
> Mole


....I had a GPU card I bought for my workstation take three days travelling 750 miles north from Shreveport LA to Chicago before finally heading west to Portland OR. Why it simply wasn't transferred to say Dallas after the first leg to New Orleans or Kansas City/Denver when it hit St Louis perplexes me. Watching the route it was taking, the seller and I were taking bets on where it would end up next.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Outbound said:


> I'll make sure you get yours! Hopefully before that event!


It was waiting for me when I got home, very impressively packaged, and now the battery is on the charger. Light looks great, can't wait to try it out around the neighborhood tonight, and on the off-road group night ride tomorrow. Briefly lit it up with another battery pack, it passes the daylight "piss off the girlfriend in the livingroom" test. The mount works well, too. I usually like to use GoPro style mounts for everything, but that is because most bar mounts suck. This one seems to be secure and well thought out. So far, very impressed. Kickstarter done right!


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Velodonata said:


> The mount works well, too. I usually like to use GoPro style mounts for everything, but that is because most bar mounts suck. This one seems to be secure and well thought out. So far, very impressed. Kickstarter done right!


Glad to hear positive feedback on that mount. My only strap mount is on a heavier light and is not secure enough for even rough roads. It's very hot hear in Arizona and being able to use the mount with the cooling scoop will help!
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

BC Shelby said:


> ....I had a GPU card I bought for my workstation take three days travelling 750 miles north from Shreveport LA to Chicago before finally heading west to Portland OR. Why it simply wasn't transferred to say Dallas after the first leg to New Orleans or Kansas City/Denver when it hit St Louis perplexes me. Watching the route it was taking, the seller and I were taking bets on where it would end up next.


To further drift OT....

I had an order of GoPro adapters that were supposed to go to a buyer in Germany. They left the US via LA, went to Tokyo, back to LA, then somewhere in the mid-west, then NY, finally to Germany after about 3 weeks. A very well-traveled package by the time it got to the buyer.

And to bring it back OT...

I'm awaiting MRMOLE's first impressions. He has a huge array of lights to make comparisons with and a discerning eye for beam quality.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Vancbiker said:


> I'm awaiting MRMOLE's first impressions. He has a huge array of lights to make comparisons with and a discerning eye for beam quality.


I'm nervously awaiting it too!

I know you guys are going to be the biggest critics, rightfully so. We can only get better from here! :thumbsup:


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Velodonata said:


> Briefly lit it up with another battery pack, it passes the daylight "piss off the girlfriend in the livingroom" test.


Yea I think by the time I was done prototyping and developing it my wife was about ready to divorce me with how many of those tests I did.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

Got it! Battery is charging. I'll shine it down the street tonight. Prob won't use it on a ride for couple 3 mos or so


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> I'm nervously awaiting it too!
> 
> I know you guys are going to be the biggest critics, rightfully so. We can only get better from here! :thumbsup:


If thing go as well as my first my first impression I wouldn't be too nervous, I'm sure these lights will be well liked. Lights are larger than most will be used to but not heavier. Lots of surface area to carry heat away which will be tested immediately since it will probably experience 100F degree ride temps on its first outing with me. Agree with Velo... that the mounting strap looks and feels like it will work fine. Also solid mounting + smooth operating top mounted (my personal preference) mode button = 1 finger operation without affecting beam aiming. Bar setups that require horizontal beam adjustment will require use of the GoPro mount and I haven't messed with helmet mounting options yet but the GoPro mount will probably be the best bet for that usage too.

Turning the lights on (in the house) things look good too. These light's tint closely matches that of a CW Gloworm and they have a wide (road) to very wide (mtn) beam coverage. Indoor test can be deceiving though so need to get a road test in to see how they really work. Looks good so far.
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> If thing go as well as my first my first impression I wouldn't be too nervous, I'm sure these lights will be well liked. Lights are larger than most will be used to but not heavier. Lots of surface area to carry heat away which will be tested immediately since it will probably experience 100F degree ride temps on its first outing with me. Agree with Velo... that the mounting strap looks and feels like it will work fine. Also solid mounting + smooth operating top mounted (my personal preference) mode button = 1 finger operation without affecting beam aiming. Bar setups that require horizontal beam adjustment will require use of the GoPro mount and I haven't messed with helmet mounting options yet but the GoPro mount will probably be the best bet for that usage too.
> 
> Turning the lights on (in the house) things look good too. These light's tint closely matches that of a CW Gloworm and they have a wide (road) to very wide (mtn) beam coverage. Indoor test can be deceiving though so need to get a road test in to see how they really work. Looks good so far.
> Mole


Will preface by saying that it'll get rippin hot at a standstill, and thats why there is a thermistor to monitor things and pull back power. But all those fins and cooling is designed so that even at a walking/jogging pace it'll cool down right away. On a brisk ride even in 100*F I don't see any problems at all, I bet after you ride hard and touch the light right away after it'll hardly feel anything over ambient.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

MRMOLE said:


> Bar setups that require horizontal beam adjustment will require use of the GoPro mount and I haven't messed with helmet mounting options yet but the GoPro mount will probably be the best bet for that usage too.


There is a touch of horizontal adjustment available in the strap mount, the light head will swivel a few degrees in the mount on the bolt. That and the width of the beam may make it acceptable on less than ideal bar positions.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

MRMOLE said:


> Turning the lights on (in the house) things look good too. These light's tint closely matches that of a CW Gloworm and they have a wide (road) to very wide (mtn) beam coverage. Indoor test can be deceiving though so need to get a road test in to see how they really work. Looks good so far.
> Mole


I took it to the backyard, it evenly lights up the entire thing. Such a different feel than what I am used to, I think I am going to like it and I am super curious how it will go tomorrow night. 
Unfortunately it is a poor color match for my almost new Gloworm X2 helmet light, I shouldn't have ordered the NW. I wonder if a helmet light will be so important now, though? So I guess color may be a small issue, or just a minor preference mismatch. Slightly warmer would be nice, but I didn't even think about that until comparing it to the X2. And the X2 is probably a little bit warmer than ideal.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Curious if the color is warmer or cooler than expected? The altilon chips are in the low 5000k range, then the lens drops it down to what I'd wager is mid 4000k temp. I'm not certain on what the gloworms are running at.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Outbound said:


> Curious if the color is warmer or cooler than expected? The altilon chips are in the low 5000k range, then the lens drops it down to what I'd wager is mid 4000k temp. I'm not certain on what the gloworms are running at.


There is the problem of LED manufacturers definitions of color tint.

Cree 5000k is ALOT more like the slightly yellow halogen type color where as I've seen car makers claim 5000k and it looks more like 6000-6500k cree LEDs.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Precision Man (Apr 9, 2015)

I rode around my condo's field and wow, what a difference from a NightRider Lumina, I guess I never realized just how intense that light's center beam is. Initially I thought the new light's beam was a bit vertically short, but I was using it in a field, which means I had no nearby trees, so it's probably not an at all fair comparison to normal riding. I am hoping to try it out tomorrow on normal trails. The build quality looks to be fantastic, great job!


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

I also agree on the build quality...fit and finish look fantastic. I threw the road-version onto my bike this evening and the high cut-off looks very precise. If the weather holds, I may be commuting early tomorrow morning and can pass on a better impression of the beam (I anticipate using only the low or medium output). 24h race next weekend will put the MTB lamp to the test. So far, impressed with the packaging, controls, and beam patterns. *Note* my night riding over the past few years has been using a cheap Chinese LED, usually running on medium (~800 lumens, claimed), which has been perfectly adequate for road and riding trails at Pisgah...so, it won't take much to improve on this. But the lens and reflector on the OL lamps are a work of art. Clearly the difference between 'engineered with a purpose', compared to the 'repurposed flashlight' I've been running.

Great job, guys! This is going to be the best Xmas in June I've had yet!!!

[Update] 
First commute on the road lamp this morning. As noted above, the high cut-off on the road lamp is very distinct. The distribution of light is smooth and wide with no hot-spots, no major roll-off low or on the sides; much more even than my cars' headlights.

The rubber strap-mount also allows the light to be pivoted downward quickly if you're riding with the cut-off too high as oncoming traffic approaches. Otherwise, I had no issues with oncoming drivers flashing their brights at me.

I rode the 30-mile commute using the med-low setting. The light intensity at this setting is similar to my old light's low setting (it had a claimed 1600 lumen and 800 lumen setting...the lower 800 lumen setting is what I always used, road or MTB). At around 90 minutes, the battery indicator showed 80% remaining on my 6200mAh pack (I am running non-OL batteries, since I had several Magic Shine/Panasonic and GloWorm packs prior to purchasing the lights). Although I don't know yet if the battery indicator responds linearly, I suppose this is what I expect (~6 hours at this setting). I'll throw the ammeter on it early next week to look at the current on the different settings; if it's drawing .7-.8 amps on the med-low setting, it'll hit my targets for battery life. The light also ran very cool, but again I wasn't pushing it.

Overall, very pleased with the road lamp. Looking forward to using the MTB lamp next weekend!


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Outbound said:


> Curious if the color is warmer or cooler than expected? The altilon chips are in the low 5000k range, then the lens drops it down to what I'd wager is mid 4000k temp. I'm not certain on what the gloworms are running at.


I didn't expect it to be warm, with the LEDs coming from the automotive side of the tracks. The beam looks so good I honestly didn't even think about the color until I thought to compare it to my Gloworm, which is distinctly on the warm side. I tend to prefer slightly warm to cool, but I don't think I will have a problem with the tint other than wishing it matched the Gloworm. If I decide that I still need a good helmet light, I may have to get the cooler version of the X2 since MRMOLE indicated it's a good match.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Velodonata said:


> I didn't expect it to be warm, with the LEDs coming from the automotive side of the tracks. The beam looks so good I honestly didn't even think about the color until I thought to compare it to my Gloworm, which is distinctly on the warm side. I tend to prefer slightly warm to cool, but I don't think I will have a problem with the tint other than wishing it matched the Gloworm. If I decide that I still need a good helmet light, I may have to get the cooler version of the X2 since MRMOLE indicated it's a good match.











Took both road and trail out last night with my 2017 CW Gloworm X2 as a helmet light. Worked well with the OL lights and after road testing still feel tint is a very good match. Second thoughts on running neutral white issue has come up before and I believe Jim @ Action indicated he would be happy to switch out the NW emitters for CW one (for a charge of course) so no need to buy a whole new lighthead. I got 30 mi. in switching back an forth switching between the road and trail and am impressed with how smooth and even the beam is. Minimal dirt on the route I took so look forward to hearing how you like the OL's on a real mtn ride. Possible rain tonight and tomorrow nigh may keep me from getting out again for a few days and my light meter is dead so I need to get that fixed in case the weather keeps me in. More to follow (eventually).
Mole


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Behind the curve here compared to those who received their lights already, mine will arrive Saturday. I want to do a GoPro vid of a trail ride Saturday night. I have a chest mount and gimbal just need to lock in the settings to get a good night video. If anyone has any GoPro setting recommendations for good night ride footage(I have a Hero 6), please PM me.


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## Precision Man (Apr 9, 2015)

Throw it into "pro mode" or whatever it's called on your phone and lock the iso setting and use 30fps. There are a bunch of good night usage GoPro articles out there.


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

MRMOLE said:


> View attachment 1203791
> 
> 
> Took both road and trail out last night with my 2017 CW Gloworm X2 as a helmet light. Worked well with the OL lights and after road testing still feel tint is a very good match. Second thoughts on running neutral white issue has come up before and I believe Jim @ Action indicated he would be happy to switch out the NW emitters for CW one (for a charge of course) so no need to buy a whole new lighthead. I got 30 mi. in switching back an forth switching between the road and trail and am impressed with how smooth and even the beam is. Minimal dirt on the route I took so look forward to hearing how you like the OL's on a real mtn ride. Possible rain tonight and tomorrow nigh may keep me from getting out again for a few days and my light meter is dead so I need to get that fixed in case the weather keeps me in. More to follow (eventually).
> Mole


...interested in seeing how the Road model performs on a rainy night as I live in Oregon. My old Jet Dual Starfire would steam when it got wet and the lenses would fog.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

I got my lights, but have not really looked at them closely yet. Is there an easy way to tell the difference between the road and trail (because I got one of each).

P.S. please don't say to turn them on. LOL


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> First commute on the road lamp this morning. As noted above, the high cut-off on the road lamp is very distinct. The distribution of light is smooth and wide with no hot-spots, no major roll-off low or on the sides; much more even than my cars' headlights.
> 
> The rubber strap-mount also allows the light to be pivoted downward quickly if you're riding with the cut-off too high as oncoming traffic approaches. Otherwise, I had no issues with oncoming drivers flashing their brights at me.
> 
> ...


The status lights I wouldn't say is a "linear" measure of battery life, especially since we wanted to have more control and warnings near the end of life of the battery, as that is when it matters so that someone isn't left in the middle of nowhere because there was only one light left and it wasn't giving a reliable measure of what's going on. The first half is fairly accurate I'd say. Once it gets to status light 3 (halfway) then have a little less than 1/2 battery life left on that particular brightness setting.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> I got my lights, but have not really looked at them closely yet. Is there an easy way to tell the difference between the road and trail (because I got one of each).
> 
> P.S. please don't say to turn them on. LOL


Turn em .... oh....

The road reflector has the "larger" reflector faces, while the trail is made up of nearly 1000 tiny little faces. Pretty much the easiest way to tell the difference.

I'm already looking into a permanent way to have the lights marked for future production. Probably a pad printed label. You aren't the first to ask this!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

BC Shelby said:


> ...interested in seeing how the Road model performs on a rainy night as I live in Oregon. My old Jet Dual Starfire would steam when it got wet and the lenses would fog.


Will preface by saying that if going from a high humidity environment and turning on the light, you will see fogging on the inside of the lens. However we do have a breather hole with a gore patch on the casting (you can see a tiny 2mm hole on the underside of the casting if you look for it).

This is 100% perfectly normal, and the breather vent is there so that the condensation can escape, and not end up pressurizing the housing, or condensation on the electrical components. The fogging would go away in about 10-15 minutes of operation after initial startup. During testing would see only localized fogging, like dime sized, not an entire fogging of the lens.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> On a brisk ride even in 100*F I don't see any problems at all, I bet after you ride hard and touch the light right away after it'll hardly feel anything over ambient.


Lights worked just fine in 100 degree temps but you would have lost your bet as the lighthead was uncomfortable to touch for very long. Still no noticeable effect on the light running in those temps which is better than nearly all the lights I've owned or tried.



> Curious if the color is warmer or cooler than expected? The altilon chips are in the low 5000k range, then the lens drops it down to what I'd wager is mid 4000k temp. I'm not certain on what the gloworms are running at


My impression of the tint of the light would have been 5500 - 6000K. Not sure what Gloworm uses but a very close match.
Mole


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

I am glad people are getting their lights, but i have a question about tracking the shippment. I only received one email that my package is shipped, and in the email was writen i can track it via a link, but no link was in email to any website. Is this maybe some sort off passive tracking where i get notifiation as the package travels from place to place? I am confused... 

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> Lights worked just fine in 100 degree temps but you would have lost your bet as the lighthead was uncomfortable to touch for very long. Still no noticeable effect on the light running in those temps which is better than nearly all the lights I've owned or tried.


Dang, okay I'll concede. :thumbsup:

Does raise a question though.... should I consider lowering the set point for the heat side of things so that the case doesn't feel like its hot to the touch, even though it'd come at the expense of lowered brightness in low movement settings? Would be purely for a consumer perception type thing since the LED is nowhere near it's thermal breaking point.


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## givemefive (May 26, 2007)

needed a another light for my riding partner.. ordered one yesterday and happy to see I should have it monday


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## Dennis McKim (Dec 26, 2017)

Outbound said:


> Dang, okay I'll concede. :thumbsup:
> 
> Does raise a question though.... should I consider lowering the set point for the heat side of things so that the case doesn't feel like its hot to the touch, even though it'd come at the expense of lowered brightness in low movement settings? Would be purely for a consumer perception type thing since the LED is nowhere near it's thermal breaking point.


My vote is to let the light run hot, as long as the LED is safe. I would prefer that the light not auto-dim unless it is necessary.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Outbound said:


> Dang, okay I'll concede. :thumbsup:
> 
> Does raise a question though.... should I consider lowering the set point for the heat side of things so that the case doesn't feel like its hot to the touch, even though it'd come at the expense of lowered brightness in low movement settings? Would be purely for a consumer perception type thing since the LED is nowhere near it's thermal breaking point.


People are not going to like it getting too hot to touch.

On my Zebralight I can adjust the temperature the PID kicks in up or down 5°C
There's some measurements of how the effects the runtimes and brightness here:
Zebralight SC600-III (XHP35, 1x18650) Review: RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS, VIDEO and more!!


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Dang, okay I'll concede. :thumbsup:
> 
> Does raise a question though.... should I consider lowering the set point for the heat side of things so that the case doesn't feel like its hot to the touch, even though it'd come at the expense of lowered brightness in low movement settings? Would be purely for a consumer perception type thing since the LED is nowhere near it's thermal breaking point.


I don't think I would consider changing anything at this point. Hot lightheads are part of night riding here in the desert and your lights fare far better than most. 
Mole


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

MRMOLE said:


> Took both road and trail out last night with my 2017 CW Gloworm X2 as a helmet light. Worked well with the OL lights and after road testing still feel tint is a very good match. Second thoughts on running neutral white issue has come up before and I believe Jim @ Action indicated he would be happy to switch out the NW emitters for CW one (for a charge of course) so no need to buy a whole new lighthead. I got 30 mi. in switching back an forth switching between the road and trail and am impressed with how smooth and even the beam is. Minimal dirt on the route I took so look forward to hearing how you like the OL's on a real mtn ride.


Thanks, I will check with Jim @ Action, changing the emitters would solve my problem, paired with the Outbound I want to continue to use the Gloworm X2 as a helmet light, it's a great little light.

The first woods ride with the Outbound was almost rained out and was a damp mess and shorter than planned, but still a good time. The light performed well and as expected. It is a different experience than running traditional lights and took a little bit of familiarization. The light delivers a wide and remarkably even but smoothly defined pattern. The beam width won't quite let you see around the tightest corners, but damn close and I was on well familiar trails so I didn't use the helmet light at all. I had no problems without it. The smooth spread of light has a distinct and even horizontal upper cutoff that I set the light angle by, and just enough light spill above to see and avoid branches, hanging moss and vines.

The one thing the light does not provide is penetrating throw, this is obviously the compromise for spreading the beam so nicely and is not so much a problem as an observation. For some trails, higher speed quick up-and-down stuff that we have but could not ride last night due to the recent rain, I think the helmet light will still be welcome to see above the cutoff when the bars are still pointing down but the trail is soon to be heading up, and to see below the shadow of upcoming dips and drops. And having a source with more throw will also be useful on fast straight stuff. With matched tint, I think the Gloworm X2 will be an ideal helmet light for this role, and I wouldn't want to go into the woods with only one light anyway, just for backup purposes. But not chasing a hot spot of light was quite nice for the majority of the ride and I am going to happily run the Outbound as my new primary light.

The user interface worked great for me, I am already spoiled by the excellent little Gloworm remote which is fantastic for a helmet light, so the Outbound having a big easy to use button and mode/power remaining indicators with logical and easy to use functionality was nice. The light tint was absolutely fine out in the woods, I never gave it a thought while riding. The bar mount also worked well and as expected, it was sturdy and secure while being easily adjustable up and down and a wee bit side to side. I don't expect to ever bother with the GoPro adapter.

I am quite pleased with this light and very impressed with how well executed this entire enterprise has been by Outbound. I suppose the guys who want to throw a fireball down the trail won't love it, but I expect it to be very popular with riders that appreciate a light that is both refined and effective.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Velodonata said:


> I am quite pleased with this light and very impressed with how well executed this entire enterprise has been by Outbound. I suppose the guys who want to throw a fireball down the trail won't love it, but I expect it to be very popular with riders that appreciate a light that is both refined and effective.


Thanks for the kind words! You are correct in that this won't be the "light to end all lights" for the hardcore trail guy who does want to throw fireballs down the trail, but this is going to be an insanely good compliment to whatever they have currently. At least until my next light. :thumbsup:

However the combination of trail on the bar and a road on the helmet is quite an insane combo. I am going to be putting together another package on the website just for that. The Mucho Grande pack or something, maybe we'll come up with a better name. But two chargers, two batteries, extension cord, go pro adapters, Trail and Road lighthead, and the bar mounts. Great for that ultimate setup.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Also, I have gotten a few reports of broken straps when trying to get tight on a small bar (sub 25mm). These are one too many, and I am already in contact with our supplier to modify the design a bit, add larger radiuses to the holes, and switch the material to one with a better tear resistance, but still be soft enough to be grippy and to pull tight onto the bar.

As soon as we get samples approved and a production run going,* I will be sending a new strap to EVERYONE who bought a light, irregardless if your strap is working perfectly*. I do not want you to be at the trailhead and finding your strap is broken due to a design flaw on our end, so going to be proactive and just nip the problem in the bud early on.

And next time i'll be sure to test even on tiny 10mm bars and superman strength.

My apologies in advance if anyone experiences a broken strap. Please contact me at [email protected] if you experience a problem and I will get you a new "old" strap in the mail ASAP until our new designs come in. I hope this process will take less than a month or so.

Like I mentioned, this seems to be localized only to those who are trying to strap tightly to really small bars, no problems reported yet on a typical 25 or 32mm bar.


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## msalvatore (Mar 29, 2018)

Got mine today, will be doing a ride tomorrow night. Initial impressions are a very nicely built and thought out light. Just a thought you could do a different color button on top for the road lights, such as the orange for mountain and yellow for road. Will report back tomorrow night. Thanks


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

...love to see what the beam of the road version looks like in the rain.


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## givemefive (May 26, 2007)

What extension cable can I use so that I can put the battery in my jersey pocket with the light helmet mounted?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

givemefive said:


> What extension cable can I use so that I can put the battery in my jersey pocket with the light helmet mounted?


https://www.outboundlighting.com/product/extension-cord/

Boom!


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## Tunnelrat81 (Nov 13, 2011)

Our road edition light showed up yesterday and I had just enough time in the evening to get the battery charged up and send my wife out on a quick test ride (it is her light afterall). I was also able to do a side by side with my old MJ-808 and compare the color, beam spread etc.. 

The lighthead itself seems very well made, with obvious attention to detail. The way the fins in the air scoop nicely line up with the cooling fins of the lighthead is one example. The button has a nice feel and click, and the controls for brightness level leave no room for confusion. The setting indicator displays clearly during selection and then returns to indicate the battery level. 

There were a couple of imperfections. One was a small tear at the end of the neoprene battery case. It is a roughly 3/4 to 1" long, lateral cut that goes most of the way through the pouch and looks like maybe it tore a bit while it was being pulled over that end of the battery. Does not seem likely to grow or cause further problems, but it is worth mentioning. The other small item I noticed tonight while installing it on my wife's bike before her first real ride with it. The rubber strap has two small, very shallow slices at the base, within an inch of where it clamps into the light. These small slices are on opposing sides of the rubber strap, one slightly longer than the other, but opposite each other.. Not sure what this could have been caused by, but it seems like it must have come that way because it had been installed on her bike exactly one time, and not tightly, last night. It's nice to see that Matt is already on this issue, and we'll be keeping an eye on this part of the strap as we continue using the light. 

Now, to the light. All I have is first impressions at this point. The light reminds me of a car headlight in use. The cut-off is sharp, and obviously an engineered feature more so than a "blocked" feature. Just in front of the bike (very close) is a very sharp arc where the light starts, and then the beam spreads out evenly from there, both out and up to the cut-off. One thing that I notice that I didn't see in the online photos is that you can see the ridges from the diffusing lens where the light hits the ground. These aren't bothersome, my wife didn't even notice them, but they are present, and more obvious when you move the handlebars. I don't expect this to be an issue at all, but again, worth noting. The even spread of light is truly impressive though, and the light coverage is in an entirely different realm from our original magicshine lights. Next to this thing, the MS lights look fairly pitiful. My guess is that as a helmet mounted light, the MS will work well, but because it puts light in a single spot only, it would be really hard going back to it as a sole handlebar light after using this light.

Running both the MS MJ808 and the OL Road edition at the same time, the very center of the MS hotspot might be a tiny bit brighter perhaps than the OL, and a tiny bit cooler color. The OL light is covering a HUGE area, however, so comparing the brightness is silly. I've ridden thousands of miles on motorcycles that didn't have this bright of a headlight. And I don't really care how hot a hotspot is if I can't see anything outside of it.

Also noting as a neat feature is the fact that the light fades on. In practice this may not be necessary, but it's very pleasant feature that makes both turning the light on and mode changes less jarring.

My wife just walked in to report that her ride was awesome, and the light worked great (she is a woman of few words). She was riding with a friend, and commented that a second rider doesn't even need a light because the beam is so wide and bright. I've ridden home after sunset rides when only one rider has a light, and with spot type headlights, it can be disconcerting. The image I have in my mind is that riding side by side with someone using this light will be almost like sitting as a passenger in a car...not seeing any less clearly than the driver.

Oh, and the mode changes are surprisingly close to each other. The change from High to Med-high is barely noticeable, and the same when it steps down to Medium. The jump to Low is larger, but still puts a very usable amount of light on the ground. Ride testing will give me a better impression, but my guess is that running this light in medium is a very good option. If the run-time is anywhere near advertised for that mode, it's even more of a no-brainer.

I'll try to get out in the next few days for a ride with it myself, and post some additional thoughts, but so far I continue to have high expectations for this light. I'm looking forward to the opportunity to ride with friends and tell them about it too. We have a vibrant cycling community here and there are at least a few people who enjoy riding in the cool of the night when the summers get really hot. 

Thanks again Matt for designing and building this thing. It's been really fun to discover, follow, and root for over the last few months. Early impressions seem to support everything designed into it. 

-Jeremy


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

I finally got a chance to get out on these lights for a real mtn. ride. Rode to a nearby trail that had a nice loop that I could do back to back to compare the road and trail versions of the OL lights. I also rode a bit of the tighter sections using the trail without the Gloworm X2 that I was using as a helmet light to see how it handled the trail solo. So here's what I think!

The trail version is just not for me. Developed to ride in the woods/forests where Matt rides the extremely wide beam is mostly wasted on the more open desert trails I ride which values more throw IMO. Extra beam width also diminishes intensity but running the trail in the highest 2 settings would activate the thermal protection in the 105 degree ride temp last night (also the X2). 

Road version worked great on the roads, MUP's and trails I rode last night. Beam width is what I'm used to for a bar light and the smaller coverage area increased the intensity of the beam to the point where I ended up using the second to the lowest setting for pretty much everything. Even in this mode the road seemed much brighter than the trail which increased visibility plus the lower setting allowed the light to run cooler. Want to compare the road version to my Wiz20 next since that's currently my favorite road/MUP light. Should be interesting.
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Thanks for the notes guys!

I do agree that if doing open air riding like above the tree line in the mountains (ya'll crazy) or in 105* deserts (ya'll crazy) then the focus on ultra wide beam pattern and homogeneous light will be lost for the trail version and probably are going to be better off with a more traditional thrower, or at least until we make another reflector (entirely possible!) or just another light. 

I did just pick up a GoPro Hero6 Black to try and get some riding in with it since the low-light performance is far better than my old Hero2 that I have, and more importantly, it has superview! Finally a way to really show just how wide and even the light spread is.

Here are some screenshots from a quick jaunt around my neighborhood on my Stache 5, not exactly the best road bike!

This is the highest rated bike light on Amazon, with over 3500 reviews. Very similar to a typical spot/throw type light. Has a lux value that is easily 1.5-2x higher than the peak lux of the road light. I had to aim it down a bit so not blinding people going for a walk (it was a beautiful night last night), while the road version was aimed such that it also wasn't blinding people thanks to the cutoff.

















Quick screenshots from my GoPro app obviously doesn't tell the whole story, so will be getting video here soon. For now here's a thrown together clip showing that same Amazon light at first, clicking up to the highest mode, then turning on the Trail light. After that it's just walking around with the Road Light and my pup wanting to see what I'm up to.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> .....The trail version is just not for me. Developed to ride in the woods/forests where Matt rides the extremely wide beam


I'm quite sure I'd have the same opinion of the trail version. For me, light way out to the sides is just lighting up places you are not going. The very wide beam is what made me lose enthusiasm for the trail version and not get in on the KS buy.



MRMOLE said:


> ....Road version worked great on the roads, MUP's and trails I rode last night. Beam width is what I'm used to for a bar light and the smaller coverage area increased the intensity of the beam to the point where I ended up using the second to the lowest setting for pretty much everything.


For trail use the road version still has some attraction for me. It will be interesting to hear and see what others think about the road version in trail use.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Vancbiker said:


> I'm quite sure I'd have the same opinion of the trail version. For me, light way out to the sides is just lighting up places you are not going. The very wide beam is what made me lose enthusiasm for the trail version and not get in on the KS buy.


In the deserts and barren areas, where the light is just going way into space it's a form of wasted energy. However in the woods it's giving your eyes and brain more information to collect, which makes riding in general more comfortable, and more "day like". There is no shortage of brighter more intense more focused lights out there, but lots of people who used to ride with Niterider 1800's, Lupines, and high powered spot lights are always really surprised how much they enjoy the massive even width.

Really looking forward to putting together some videos comparing different lights on the same section of trails.


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

...would love to see one of the road version in the rain to see how the beam is affected.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

BC Shelby said:


> ...would love to see one of the road version in the rain to see how the beam is affected.


I've heard some rumors about you wanting that. 

Not much rain in the forecast at night in my area for a while (big thunderstorms this morning and afternoon), but I'll make it a note the next time it's raining at night if someone else doesn't beat me to it!


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

...cool. Rain does affect visibility to the point where the usual spot type lights often seem almost ineffective. A more diffuse beam should do better I would think


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

For those of you that did get the lights through the website, and are happy with it, it would mean a lot to me if you guys could leave a review for the lights that you bought!

https://www.outboundlighting.com/products/

Just need to login and can review anything you purchased.


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## AlienRFX (Sep 27, 2006)

Got mine last week and had a chance to test it on the trail. Beam pattern is absolutely phenomenal along with the color temp. I don't even need to worry about running a helmet lamp anymore and this is definitely the best bike light I've used yet over 20 years of night riding. The only complaint I have is that there doesn't seem to be any difference between the output of the first 3 modes, of course this is based off of my mk1 mod0 eyeball and not a lux meter. I'm sure there's a difference but it isn't noticeable.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Had a chance to ride on a trail with both versions. I prefer the Trail version over the road version just because it's more evenly lit when I'm riding up against cliffs/rocks/bushes. I am the type of rider though who just likes a helmet light as well. I'll try the road version up there and I suspect that will do the trick very nicely! Here's a youtube vid, excuse my crappy narrative and poor editing skills but if you're on the fence about which version, or if you want any version, this should be helpful.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

AlienRFX said:


> Got mine last week and had a chance to test it on the trail. Beam pattern is absolutely phenomenal along with the color temp. I don't even need to worry about running a helmet lamp anymore and this is definitely the best bike light I've used yet over 20 years of night riding. The only complaint I have is that there doesn't seem to be any difference between the output of the first 3 modes, of course this is based off of my mk1 mod0 eyeball and not a lux meter. I'm sure there's a difference but it isn't noticeable.


So glad to hear!

Yes the modes are hard to tell, especially in the first few minutes. Once the light is fully warmed up and operational (we are working on speeding that up, software thing) then the modes get a littttle more defined. Medium-High is still hard to tell a difference. However the amperage difference is there, and can certainly save a lot of battery life by running on lower modes.


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## oldstrath (Nov 13, 2017)

Just received mine yesterday in Scotland. Won't get to use them properly for a while (this far North darkness is basically 11.30 pm to 3 am). I'm well impressed by the road beam though - at least as wide a beam as the Saferide, more homogeneous beam, better mount and (I hope) battery life.


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

farfromovin said:


> Had a chance to ride on a trail with both versions. I prefer the Trail version over the road version just because it's more evenly lit when I'm riding up against cliffs/rocks/bushes. I am the type of rider though who just likes a helmet light as well. I'll try the road version up there and I suspect that will do the trick very nicely! Here's a youtube vid, excuse my crappy narrative and poor editing skills but if you're on the fence about which version, or if you want any version, this should be helpful.


...hmm from my perspective, it looks as if the road light illuminates further ahead. I would think it would be the opposite. Both together, crikey that's "rolling daylight".

Scary looking trail with those drop offs to one side.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

BC Shelby said:


> ...hmm from my perspective, it looks as if the road light illuminates further ahead. I would think it would be the opposite. Both together, crikey that's "rolling daylight".
> 
> Scary looking trail with those drop offs to one side.


The Road light does reach further, which is preferred on straight sections obviously. Where the Trail light is brilliant though is when you're twisting the bars back and forth working the trail it's just very even. There was a point in the video I commented about where the Road light makes hotspots on close by objects whereas the Trail doesn't. 
It's all very dependent on the type of trails you ride most. I'm gonna put the road version on my helmet with the patch cord and keep the battery in my Jersey pocket. This should give me all I could ask for as I won't be chasing the hotspot AND I can see beyond the Trail version. 
Yeah, trails like that one in the video with a drop on one side definitely have the potential for consequences, that's why I prefer a bar/helmet setup.
I'm super impressed with the coverage of both lights and the build quality. Outbound has done a great job here.


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

...thanks, that really helped to sell me on the road version (which is the one I am interested in) as I primarily ride in urban areas but where many side streets are very poorly lit. 

Our city switched from the more diffuse sodium streetlamps to these new LED ones which have a narrower light cone and almost no light spill so unlit areas between them are a lot darker


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

BC Shelby said:


> ...thanks, that really helped to sell me on the road version (which is the one I am interested in) as I primarily ride in urban areas but where many side streets are very poorly lit.
> 
> Our city switched from the more diffuse sodium streetlamps to these new LED ones which have a narrower light cone and almost no light spill so unlit areas between them are a lot darker


The road version is indeed a more focused beam than the trail, so it does reach further. It has almost triple the peak lux than the road. Both are identical chips, drivers, etc. Only difference is the reflector design. Also goes to show just how small changes in the reflector can have big differences!


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

...indeed. It will be perfect on the poorly lit backstreets where I live and the wide beam will be very noticeable at intersections. Also should catch the eyes of cats and raccoons (the latter very numerous here) well in advance. Some of those raccoons I've seen are so big, they outweigh a small dog. 

Need to wait until next month's benefit cheque. Colour me very impressed.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Hey guys! About to head out here in a bit to go for some riding, but put together this video discussing what comes with the light, installing it, features, and showing the silicone lens!


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Outbound said:


> In the deserts and barren areas, where the light is just going way into space it's a form of wasted energy. However in the woods it's giving your eyes and brain more information to collect, which makes riding in general more comfortable, and more "day like".


For me, the wide beam just creates moving shadows from brush and branches off to the side that I would catch in my peripheral vision. Those shadows are distracting and I find myself looking off to the side to verify what I think I saw. Maybe too much information for my brain to collect .

A wide beam does not equate to being more "day-like". Light coming from a single, close-in point, 3.5 feet off the ground does not mimic daytime riding at all IMO.

Lighting is very much about personal preferences. That's one of the nice things I'm seeing with Outbound. They are not just putting out a single beam shape and calling it the end all, be all of lights like another KS funded light project did. If I did not already have a bunch of lights to choose from, I'd be looking closely at getting one of the road versions.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Now here's the video I've been excited to shoot. This is more of my "I'm just going to kind of ramble on about lighting" style of talking. No real marketing fluff here, editing was dead simple, just added the company logo.

I even surprised myself at just how incredible the Trail on the bar, plus Road on the head was, that comparision is around 6:20 in the video. (P.S. don't mind the clickbaity title, gotta do what we gotta do for search optimization.  )






I've got a Seca 1800 on the way, and a Niterider 1800 that I'm going to do some comparisons to. Had a reaaaaal hard time trying to convince myself to buy a $500 lupine setup to show how this beats it.... maybe we'll try to sell a few more lights first before I commit to that. Still have a lot of tooling and inventory to pay off!


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

For me, the Trail or Road versions as a solo mtb light just doesn’t work. You have to have a bar/helmet combo for serious trail riding. With that said, I’m a serious fan of what Outbound has done here. The beam patterns, magnesium cases, long battery life, and component quality seal the deal for me to run a trail/road combo. Granted, it’s still $500 in lights, but I can’t think of a better value for a safe and reliable setup. Can’t wait till my next night ride!


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

farfromovin said:


> For me, the Trail or Road versions as a solo mtb light just doesn't work. You have to have a bar/helmet combo for serious trail riding. With that said, I'm a serious fan of what Outbound has done here. The beam patterns, magnesium cases, long battery life, and component quality seal the deal for me to run a trail/road combo. Granted, it's still $500 in lights, but I can't think of a better value for a safe and reliable setup. Can't wait till my next night ride!


I agree here, no matter the light, helmet light IMHO is a must. I have ridden with nothing but a helmet light and nothing but a bar light.

Just a bar light if I know the trails really really well and just cruising is fine for mellow group rides (trails I'm familiar with still). But hammering it I can do with only a helmet light if needed. Group rides I have loaned out my bar light on several occasions (cheap light failures).

But one thing for trail riding is that 1 light is never a good idea from a safety aspect if riding solo. All it takes is forgetting to charge a battery or even a very minor crash (snag something on the way down and damage a mount or battery cable etc) and your left in the dark.

I'm very much enjoying my road version. I'm not a restricted beam person when it comes to trails. I have ravemen normally and their cut off does it job but at the speeds I can reach on back roads and such, this light does a much better job of getting light out further without pushing off drivers. Plus I prefer battery pack lights myself, way more run time without running at really low outputs.

With trails though Everything I ride is mostly wooded and low hanging stuff due to storms is a constant issue. The Trail version is better than the road for this but it's still a concern for me. The whole "wasting light up in the air" I never understood. Matter of personal preference there. I want to make sure even if I turn my head to point my helmet light somewhere anything that could catch me in the face I can still see clearly and in time to react. If I road in the desert or something like that then ok, but in the woods a cutoff type beam isnt my cup of tea. Like my head attached to my shoulders usually.

I need to get a picture as its mounted and going now on my "whatever" bike (fat bike with 29+ rims/surly extraterrestrial 2.5s for my not winter path/pavement/commuting duties).

I also noticed the "artifacts" in the beam (verticle shadows) but during use you dont notice and forget about them unless you staring at the ground.

The strap issue surprises me, I can pull like crazy and I'm a BIG GUY, no issues. Think the problem lies in a production mistake. I do have what looks like little cuts in some spots. They are very shallow and actually appear to have been from air bubbles that got trapped. From my "previous" life in plastics molding that screams lack of or plugged vents in the mold. Also molds getting too hot or too humid it can happen too but usually trapped air issue. Almost impossible to catch till the parts have cooled and fully set.

My only "complaint", the gopro mount means removing the entire bottom plastic assembly. Wish the strap could just be removed and gopro adapter be added in. I just like the looks of the "scoop" 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

farfromovin said:


> For me, the Trail or Road versions as a solo mtb light just doesn't work. You have to have a bar/helmet combo for serious trail riding. With that said, I'm a serious fan of what Outbound has done here. The beam patterns, magnesium cases, long battery life, and component quality seal the deal for me to run a trail/road combo. Granted, it's still $500 in lights, but I can't think of a better value for a safe and reliable setup. Can't wait till my next night ride!


Farfrom,

I do agree that for serious trail riding, a combo is needed. Though I would argue that most serious trail riders at night already have a decent light. What I would be proposing is getting a trail on the bar, and put that more focused conical spot light on the head. I mention this at around 5:35 in the video. (about how serious riders probably want more than just a single trail), then can come back and put a road up there. 






It really is quite amazing what the fill of the trail can do for the overall experience.

I am going to put together a kit for this "ultimate solution" and discontinue the combo kit. The full kit will have the trail, road, two batteries, two wall chargers, an extension cord, and I am going to try and source a gopro helmet mount. The idea is that it's the ultimate trail riding solution (that still lets you get 2.5+ hours of runtime on high) but then also lets you have a good solution for the road since seems most of the serious trail riders are also often riding their road bikes in between. I am still figuring out pricing, but it won't be $500, will be mid $400.


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## oldstrath (Nov 13, 2017)

I see the attraction, but prefer self-contained on the helmet. Probably more a UK solution, but Exposure Diablo / Maxx-d combination works for me. Since my wife has nicked these, I'll maybe have a play once we get some darkness, but suspect I'll end up buying something like the Diablo again.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Looking at the video I was impressed with the beam pattern of the light you are selling. However, I'm going to critique the lamp you used for the comparison. Whatever cheap Chinese single emitter lamp you used in the comparison I have to say, "That is the worse beam pattern I've ever seen from any dedicated bike light ( designed for bar use ). ( Where in the hell did you find that!...:nono: ) Since the lamp you are selling is in the $250 price range I would of thought it would be more informative to have compared it to another dedicated multi-emitter brand name bike light in the same price range. Of course if you had indeed done that I'm sure there wouldn't have been so drastic a difference in beam patterns as was shown in the video. 

Not that I'm dissing on the Outbound you are selling. Very nice and smooth beam pattern. Because the beam pattern is so well dispersed I'm figuring this will help lessen any problems with close in reflective glare. I notice the same thing with the Raveman lights I own which too use cool white emitters. When using them I notice very little ( if any ) reflective glare. I think this just goes to show that a lamp with a wide controlled beam pattern can be very useful. I'm going to assume since you have such a unique reflector that this fact will make your setups even more pleasant to use. That said and like others have said even with a lamp like yours I'm still going to combo up and use a helmet lamp.

Anyway, back to what I was saying about other types of bike lights; I use a Gloworm X2 on the bars. It does a very good job at providing a fairly wide beam pattern as well as decent throw ( although not as wide as any of the Raveman lamps I own ). Now with that said I also own a cheap Convoy S2 torch that I keep on the bars as back up. Any time I turn the S2 on I'm still amazed at how well it will light up a trail. Doesn't have the power or throw of the X2 but it pretty near gives me the same beam pattern. The type of reflector being used makes a big difference. In case of the S2 the one I have uses a smaller more shallower reflector. For something so cheap it does an excellent job of lighting up a trail. On more than one occasion I have mistakenly thought I left my X2 on only to figure out that the X2 was indeed off and it was the S2 that I forgot to turn off.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cat-man-do said:


> Looking at the video I was impressed with the beam pattern of the light you are selling. However, I'm going to critique the lamp you used for the comparison. Whatever cheap Chinese single emitter lamp you used in the comparison I have to say, "That is the worse beam pattern I've ever seen from any dedicated bike light ( designed for bar use ). ( Where in the hell did you find that!...:nono: ) Since the lamp you are selling is in the $250 price range I would of thought it would be more informative to have compared it to another dedicated multi-emitter brand name bike light in the same price range. Of course if you had indeed done that I'm sure there wouldn't have been so drastic a difference in beam patterns as was shown in the video.
> 
> Not that I'm dissing on the Outbound you are selling. Very nice and smooth beam pattern. Because the beam pattern is so well dispersed I'm figuring this will help lessen any problems with close in reflective glare. I notice the same thing with the Raveman lights I own which too use cool white emitters. When using them I notice very little ( if any ) reflective glare. I think this just goes to show that a lamp with a wide controlled beam pattern can be very useful. I'm going to assume since you have such a unique reflector that this fact will make your setups even more pleasant to use. That said and like others have said even with a lamp like yours I'm still going to combo up and use a helmet lamp.
> 
> Anyway, back to what I was saying about other types of bike lights; I use a Gloworm X2 on the bars. It does a very good job at providing a fairly wide beam pattern as well as decent throw ( although not as wide as any of the Raveman lamps I own ). Now with that said I also own a cheap Convoy S2 torch that I keep on the bars as back up. Any time I turn the S2 on I'm still amazed at how well it will light up a trail. Doesn't have the power or throw of the X2 but it pretty near gives me the same beam pattern. The type of reflector being used makes a big difference. In case of the S2 the one I have uses a smaller more shallower reflector. For something so cheap it does an excellent job of lighting up a trail. On more than one occasion I have mistakenly thought I left my X2 on only to figure out that the X2 was indeed off and it was the S2 that I forgot to turn off.


That lamp that was used is the best selling light on Amazon with over 3600 reviews. The BrightEyes one. I've got a Niterider1800 and a Seca 1800 on the way that I am going to also post a comparision video on since you are right, should be comparing similar price points.

Mostly wanted to illustrate what you get with a $50 bike light. Could try and mount 5 of those on some handlebars and helmet and carry 5 batteries. Might be a video I'll try and do later on. 

Though I will say that the bright eyes it has an identical beam pattern to the BT40S and the KD2 light that a lot of people recommend on here. This one (also prominant on Amazon) is even worse, and I felt like people would think I was reallyyyyy sandbagging if I used this light. (http://www.kaidomain.com/p/S022532....mens-Bike-Light-with-Battery-Pack-and-Charger) Extremely blue output and very tight spot. I couldn't use the BT40S because the mount broke, and the KD2 fried after one use. Only one side of the light illuminates now.

Rest assured more comparisons will come.


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## BC Shelby (Nov 25, 2014)

...will be interesting to see the SECA 1800 comparison as that was one of the other models I was looking at.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

oldstrath said:


> I see the attraction, but prefer self-contained on the helmet. Probably more a UK solution, but Exposure Diablo / Maxx-d combination works for me. Since my wife has nicked these, I'll maybe have a play once we get some darkness, but suspect I'll end up buying something like the Diablo again.


I'd prefer a self contained as well for the helmet as well but you gotta compromise somewhere:
Ease of use / simplicity
Weight on the helmet
Throw 
Pattern
Light color
Battery life

I think I get all of those with the Road version EXCEPT ease of use. Putting a battery pack in a bib pocket and running a cable under my shirt to the battery pack is more of a pain in the butt than just using a self contained unit. Not arguing about what's better, just showing the factors that make me want to mess with an external battery helmet light.

Also looking forward to the Seca light comparison. I've never used them but they seem to be high quality products.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I'm sorry, but there's NO WAY that Bright Eyes light has the same beam pattern as a BT40S! The BT40S doesn't have a hotspot and is wide flood (actually a decent comparison to your light). I'm sure you're just confused.

-Garry


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

garrybunk said:


> I'm sorry, but there's NO WAY that Bright Eyes light has the same beam pattern as a BT40S! The BT40S doesn't have a hotspot and is wide flood (actually a decent comparison to your light). I'm sure you're just confused.
> 
> -Garry


Garry,

You are right that the BT40S bit more diffused, but it's still a fairly narrow beam. Remember that the video is shot in GoPro "Superview" which is a massive field of view that's more similar to what our eye sees, kind of why I love it, as it can really show off the width more. I shot a picture of the two lights side by side in my hand, about 4' from my wall. Left is Bright Eyes that was used in the video (and seems everyone on amazon loses their mind over) and the BT40S on the right.

*EDIT* for some reason MTBR flipped the pic. Bright Eyes on the right, BT40S on the left!


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

I am looking forward to the next night trail ride and hoping for better weather to get a more thorough test in. This time I am going to use both the OL Trail and my Gloworm X2, I think it's going to be really nice on our trails based on my last soggy ride where I just ran the OL Trail and kept the X2 off. I expect to keep the X2 on low and the OL Trail on medium most of the time, and kick them up a notch for the more technical/faster stuff. The X2 has worked out really well as a helmet light, I bought it with this setup in mind and other than selecting the wrong tint it is exactly what I hoped for. As has been mentioned, running 2 lights is essential even if you didn't usually need them both at the same time, only a fool would go into the woods without a backup light.

Running an OL Road on the helmet looks like it would work fantastically, but I think sticking with the little Gloworm won't be giving up much for my purposes and it is considerably more compact. They weigh about the same and probably have similar power usage. I have been trying to get the right helmet setup for a long time. The Gloworm remote was the final piece of the puzzle, that would be really hard to give up now. Running a bigger or a self-contained helmet light doesn't work for me, just from a mounting standpoint. Too heavy and/or bulky, and if you center the weight it sticks up too high.

This is the best solution I have come up with for helmet mounting and it works great with the X2, it gives me the option for a light or camera, and I can either strap a 2-cell to the back of the helmet of run a 4-cell in my Osprey pack. Usually the 2-cell is best, it balances the weight of the light which doesn't seem like much but will sometimes cause my helmet to shift down a little bit on the rough stuff.














The mount is one of those cheap little aluminum ones from eBay, it's a decent fit and it is attached with 2-sided tape and a couple of black nylon screws. I used a fine tip awl to punch neat holes, and made a sort of light tap out of a Dremel-tapered steel screw to form some threads. The idea is that the awl punctures and forms the shell plastic into a shaped hole that leaves a little more meat for the threads before the foam, it results in a very minimal pair of holes in the helmet but I plan for it to be permanent anyway. The nylon screws are intended to work as a break-away if the light snags on something solid, and the mount keeps it fairly low, lower than any of my other helmet mounts. I probably could have put it even a little further down on the front, for just that last little bit of vine-avoidance.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

That will indeed be a killer combo! 

Hope no one is getting the idea from me that you should ditch all your existing lights and only run ours. If you already have a great light like the Seca, or the X2, or some other intense spot ones, putting those on your helmet will be a fantastic addition to the trail edition on the bars, and completely elevate the night riding experience for the mountain bike trails.

Though for those who are looking to get into night riding, and don't plan on trying to get KOH on Strava the Trail Edition will be plenty good for dipping your toes into it. 

If you do want to go hard because that's the only way you have fun riding (which I totally get!) then the Trail on bars and the Road on the head is going to be that perfect setup (if you don't have any lights already!), and I can say with total confidence it'll be way better than an equivalent priced setup from Lupine, L&M, etc. Then better yet can use the road light on the road, or even just on the helmet and not blind people when oncoming (just have to tilt your head down a bit) or when having a chat since that cutoff helps.

I really am all about providing options. As this forum shows we all have different opinions and ideas on what an ideal setup is. I'm just pushing the setup that I believe is ideal based on my experience in automotive lighting and human vision.  While trying to provide the value of a well constructed light, good customer service, good runtime, solid accessories and some innovation.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Velodonata- that's a sweet setup with that X2. The size reminds me of when I had an Amoeba from Scar here on the forums. Actually, I had it on my TLD A2 like you do up front and ran a 2 cell mounted on top at the back. Not too heavy...
I did try the Outbound Road on my Kali helmet briefly with the 4 cell and could tell if need to visit the chiropractor if I rode any distance like that lol. But, I run the pack in my SWAT bib pockets and tuck an extension cord under my shirt. Works well and isn't very heavy. I got the Kali helmet recently as it has a built in mount.









Mug shot!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

garrybunk said:


> I'm sorry, but there's NO WAY that Bright Eyes light has the same beam pattern as a BT40S! The BT40S doesn't have a hotspot and is wide flood (actually a decent comparison to your light). I'm sure you're just confused.
> 
> -Garry


Thank you Garry...I was about to jump out of my shoes when he said the BEyes was like the BT40S but you beat me to the reprimand. I posted beam photos of the BT40's years ago so I'm sure there's some of my old photo's in one of the older threads. No way is the BT40S anything like that Brighteyes light. Not only was that B/eyes light terrible, it was so terrible that I don't think I would even use it as a back up.

FWIW, this is the best beam shot photo I have of the BT40S ( below )


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

I had the chance to ride the Trail light last weekend at the Summer Solstice 12/24 at Allatoona Creek Trails outside of Atlanta, Ga. It was a small field of about a dozen solo 12 and 24h riders (4 of us attempting the 24h race), amidst solo and team 3 and 6 hour racers. The course was forested, twisty, and rooty, with many dips and arroyos, on a hot and humid southern day. The roots started out slick in the morning, dried out and the clay had great grip throughout the day, then it rained in the evening, leaving the course slick and muddy through the night.

I turned the lamp on just before dusk, as the looming rain clouds left the forested trail a bit too dark to comfortably see. I ran the light on its lowest setting for that half-lap until I got out of the woods through the pit area. I rode the next lap on med-low as night fell; the wide, even beam-pattern worked great on these twisty trails, exactly what I expected from this output setting (my go-to for ~6 hours of battery life). I rode the following lap on the low setting, and likewise didn't have any issues with seeing the details of the trails...but I felt more than familiar with what sections were leading blind, rooted or rocky by that point. Still, it was good to know that the lowest setting was adequate as I anticipate I'll need to extend battery life in some races (or poorly-planned trail rides). Later in the night I put a lap in on the medium setting. I liked this setting best of the 3 I tried and the spread of the light didn't leave me wanting...I've ridden more-technical trails with less light (also bar-mounted), so this will feel like a luxury when the terrain calls for it. I didn't ride a lap on the high setting because I was still trying to eke run time out of my battery and the output level just wasn't needed. I'll probably give it a go on a shorter local ride (~3 hour) where I won't need to worry about burning through a battery pack quickly.

Possible complaints: the mount doesn't like the tapered section of my Mt. Zoom carbon bar. My number plate was tucked tightly under the mount of the light, and on 2 or 3 occasions when the fork compressed (bottomed out...I bled down the pressure lap after lap as the night went on to soften the ride), the front brake line would push the number plate further up and push the aim of the lamp upwards. Part of this was because I forgot to bring scissors to trim the number plate, as I have the same issue on my bar-mounted GPS; the other reason may have been that I didn't have the strap tightened enough, fearing some of the previously reported issue with the mounting strap breaking (I know it didn't apply to my bar-size, but I don't quite know how tight is too tight). I run a hard Hope universal mount on my other light (or a GoPro clamp-mount on my 35mm bar), so I'm used to the light not moving at all...but there's an obvious trade-off between fixing the light tight and breaking it in a crash, so for now I have no problem occasionally nudging the lamp with my thumb to reset the aim if needed.

Overall, I'm very pleased. I love the beam patterns on both the Road and Trail lamps, and as a 100% bar-mounted light rider, it does the job better than my previous lamps.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> Possible complaints: the mount doesn't like the tapered section of my Mt. Zoom carbon bar.... ~ ~ ~.... the other reason ( *for light moving ) may have been that I didn't have the strap tightened enough, fearing some of the previously reported issue with the mounting strap breaking (I know it didn't apply to my bar-size, but I don't quite know how tight is too tight).
> 
> Overall, I'm very pleased. I love the beam patterns on both the Road and Trail lamps, and as a 100% bar-mounted light rider, it does the job better than my previous lamps.


 ( *added by me for clarification )

Tapered handlebars can cause problems with almost all types of mounts. The more extreme the angle of the taper, the more they will tend to move. This might be even more of an issue with Carbon Fiber handlebars ( less surface friction than aluminum..?? ) Adding to that this is even more problematic when using lamps that have sculpted beam patterns. I noticed this when setting up the Raveman lamps I use on my tapered handlebars. If the mount is not perfectly level the cut-off beam pattern will also be angled. In order to even up the cut-off angle of the lamp I had to build up the outer edge of the mount using some very small pieces of electrical tape. I had to experiment with it a couple times before getting it right but when I got it dialed in it also helped the mount have a firmer hold on the handlebars. If you still have problems with the lamp moving you may need a shim that is better than the standard rubber shims supplied by most lamp setups. I highly recommend buying a roll of the Lizards skin friction tape ( sticky on one side, leather-like on the other. ) This stuff worked for me when nothing else would ( although my bars are all made of aluminum )

Very nice write up. Nice to hear from someone who is using one of these lamps. I'm also happy to hear that it also works very well when on lower power levels. That's very important if you plan to do extended rides on a regular basis.


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

1 week(*) passed. Guys, could you make some nice, technical, detailed review of the *road* version? Perhaps in a separate thread. With taking it apart, with photos of the insides. And with beam wall shots of course. No HDR is fine, just different exposures. Lengthy HDR 3D-scenes comparisons with other lights can wait. (I can help by creating a new thread!  )

Good example of the insides (of another light) from a German forum(**).

I think thermal design is interesting:
...Laird thermal transfer material that goes on both sides of the main LED board... (to me, non-specialist, no such material, the direct contact PCB->case, would be best... and "both sides"?). If the silicone lens goes all around, forming a sealing ring, then the mount scoop cools... what? Also, the solder-less assembly is interesting (to me, non-specialist, in case when there's no need for connector, just about any small soldered joint would be better than just about any high-quality connector). I very much wish to see photos of the insides.

Please?! 

Also, Outbound asked for reviews, it would help them to sell more lights!

(*) Disappoiting that mtbr shows only simplified "times", in terms of (several) hours, days, weeks, etc. Can't tell if it's 1 week or almost 2. Administration, could this wonderful simplicity be traditionally complexified please?
(**) Thanks to [email protected] for posting a link.


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## Sisyphean (Jun 27, 2018)

MRMOLE said:


> I finally got a chance to get out on these lights for a real mtn. ride. Rode to a nearby trail that had a nice loop that I could do back to back to compare the road and trail versions of the OL lights. I also rode a bit of the tighter sections using the trail without the Gloworm X2 that I was using as a helmet light to see how it handled the trail solo. So here's what I think!
> 
> The trail version is just not for me. Developed to ride in the woods/forests where Matt rides the extremely wide beam is mostly wasted on the more open desert trails I ride which values more throw IMO. Extra beam width also diminishes intensity but running the trail in the highest 2 settings would activate the thermal protection in the 105 degree ride temp last night (also the X2).
> 
> ...


MRMOLE,

Could you give an idea of how the OB Road edition compares to the Gloworm XS as far as throw is concerned? I'm on the hunt for something that has better illumination around 30-50 yards out. You are the only one I've observed on here so far that owns both of these lights, so I'm asking. Thanks.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I own both and the OL doesnt have near the throw of traditional lights. I own both as well as many of dual and tripple emitter lights. It's designed to be wide beam. Even a standard dual emitter light has more throw. But that's what makes this light good (at least for road), solid smooth coverage with some width to be useful instead of just a hot spot.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Guys - I have quickly blasted through the posts since the release of these lights. I must confess that I have no idea as to whether purchasers are happy with the finished product. Is there a TL; DR summary of the post-purchase reactions?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Guys - I have quickly blasted through the posts since the release of these lights. I must confess that I have no idea as to whether purchasers are happy with the finished product. Is there a TL; DR summary of the post-purchase reactions?


As a guy who has this topic on auto-notification, I'll just put in what I've gotten as reactions, and what I designed it to do.

If you are expecting a single light to be a replacement for a Lupine Betty 5000 or 7000 or whatever it is, you'll be quite disappointed. If you are wanting something that'll light up objects 150 yards away you'll be pretty disappointed. If you attack downhills hard at night on familiar trails, you'll probably want to combo up the trail light with either an existing light you already have on the helmet (or the road edition on the helmet) to get some extra throw where you are looking, and let the Trail fill in everything else to make a homogenous and much more comfortable ride.

I'll have a "mucho grande pack" available in a few days (waiting on gopro helmet adapters) that will have the Road light, Trail light, two batteries, two wall chargers, extension cord, gopro mount adapter, and a gopro helmet mount in case you already don't have one. That will retail for $425, and that one I believe will really have people thrilled. Matching color temperature, complete fill, the throw that people want, and a complete system designed to work together in one package. Then you can use the road on your road bike and still get those benefits as well!

Overall out of the 230+ lights I have delivered, only have had a few people mention that they were expecting a bit more, which might have been my fault through optimistic simulation data and a little excitement on my end. Otherwise has been nothing but positive feedback.

I'll gladly let others chime in.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Sounds like an overwhelmingly positive success. I was following this thread and have a very good sense of the amount of effort, enthusiasm and hope you had. Congratulations! Hopefully it's not too anti-climatic at this point for you.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Sounds like an overwhelmingly positive success. I was following this thread and have a very good sense of the amount of effort, enthusiasm and hope you had. Congratulations! Hopefully it's not too anti-climatic at this point for you.


Thanks! There are things we can and are improving. The strap being one of them. Right now my real worry/concern is being able to sell another 200 of these so that we can make this a viable business, pay off production startup costs, start production on another light and so I can leave my comfortable full-time job and focus 100% on this.

Turns out this part is wayyyyy harder than all the engineering and design work I put into this.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Sisyphean said:


> MRMOLE,
> 
> Could you give an idea of how the OB Road edition compares to the Gloworm XS as far as throw is concerned? I'm on the hunt for something that has better illumination around 30-50 yards out. You are the only one I've observed on here so far that owns both of these lights, so I'm asking. Thanks.


RAKC's comments (below) pretty much cover what I think about this.



> I own both and the OL doesnt have near the throw of traditional lights. I own both as well as many of dual and tripple emitter lights. It's designed to be wide beam. Even a standard dual emitter light has more throw. But that's what makes this light good (at least for road), solid smooth coverage with some width to be useful instead of just a hot spot.


The OL road version will definitely work well at the distance range you mentioned but the XS will be brighter/more intense (with a narrower beam) and still have a good deal more throw in reserve. Those are characteristics I've noticed but opinions on which is better will have to wait till I get more time on the OL lights.
Mole


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Got a good solid ride in tonight, throw is good for my riding (max out around 30mph). Big group full moon ride. Well ride to the other side of town to the bar, have a couple drinks and somethi g to eat then ride back under the full moon. Width is perfect as well.

One thing I did notice is mid power setting, only about 80F and at decent speeds (~15mph) I reached down to adjust aim slightly and I could feel the heat through my glove. Didnt expect it to be that warm with the speeds I was riding. Not HOT but warm enough I noticed.

Oddly enough the artifacts in the beam pattern seemed to dimish as the light was used. Maybe my eyes compensated but the center of the beam was more clean by the end of the ride (artifacts still noticeable out the sides but that was it).

Final notice, nice to have that much light and not be pissing ppl off. Especially when the path on riverfront is along a road and lined with picnic tables and benches. So very popular hang out for younger crowds and busy road (for here).









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

RAKC Ind said:


> ...mid power setting... Not HOT but warm enough I noticed.


Thousand apologies, but is it important? I'd say it _is_ great that the light is warm! Because it means it dissipates heat. If it's cold at mid-power (~10W), then it keeps energy inside, and something will soon fry in there.

Important issue IMveryHO, is _how_ the heat dissipation is implemented. Whether OL has done everything they could? If yes, then just accept this much warmth/heat (as some laws of nature) and just keep it in mind. If not, then it brings other questions...

Could you please... hm... 

PS.


MRMOLE said:


> The OL road version will definitely work well ... but the XS will be brighter/more intense (with a narrower beam)...





RAKC Ind said:


> OL doesnt have near the throw of traditional lights.


Beamshots! :cryin:


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Not good or bad. Yes heat being trapped can be bad. However trapped heat is only a problem on cheap lights.

A light can be at full power and be cold, often a problem during winter months (effects run time as batteries are cold too).

How warm a light is during use can be very dependant on several factors. How much heat the system generates and how well the case dissipates that heat are the 2 main ones. The more a case dissipates the heat and the more efficient the electronics are operating the lower the case temperature.

Air temperature and flow also play a major part. The more air flow and lower the temperature the cooler the light will run.

I simply felt it worth mentioning that I was able to feel the warmth of the light through my gloves. Something I would expect running at max output or when I'm riding trails at lower speeds especially in higher temps. Nothing wrong with the light, simply that it runs a bit warmer to the touch than I was expecting for its size and lumen output. 



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

I just got road focal series today. Havent had time to try it yet but the product finish quality is excellent, starting from the carrying case with Outbound Lighting logo and a nice gripy rubber around the handle. Zippers open up smoothly and reveals the light, battery pack and a charger.

I must say i realy like the design of the light head, has some agressive look with the cooling fins at top and bottom. Love the mathe look of the magnesium housing. The power connector is fortified at the exit point from the housing. Mode button on top has a good feel and action to it with a clear click. 
I used the light in a dark room against a wall and you can realy see a cutoff line. Seems the light is brightest just below the cutoff which i would say maximizes the throw while still not blinding oncoming trafic. This is exactly what i wanted for my road trips. Cant w8 to try it in ride. First impressions are great.









Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## Tunnelrat81 (Nov 13, 2011)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Guys - I have quickly blasted through the posts since the release of these lights. I must confess that I have no idea as to whether purchasers are happy with the finished product. Is there a TL; DR summary of the post-purchase reactions?


We can all take a bit of credit for this, and for my part I apologize. I did comment above when I had only played with the light in hand, not yet ridden with it. A couple of nights ago I went out after dark on the my road bike with the road edition. It was a full moon (not ideal for testing the reach of a light because ambient light is so high) but still enough to do a side by side comparison with our only other bike light, the Magicshine MJ-808. Unfortunately this particular light is a poor comparison as it's in a completely different price AND output range. I think I paid about $80-90/ea. for my geomangear MJ-808's and at the time I thought they were absolutely great. The OL light, while bar mounted, seems like it's 1000% better than the MS light. I rode side by side with my wife, who was using the MS, and although I could see her hot spot within the flood of the OL light, when I would block the OL light, it was jarring to see the difference. She was effectively getting no benefit from having the MS light on, and we could have easily done the entire ride with only the one light.

So to answer your questions, I'm very impressed and happy with this light so far. What I can't do, however, is compare this light to it's targeted competition, the L&M Seca series lights. I'm looking forward to seeing a side by side comparison of them, but even this light was stretching my budget, so the pricier Seca 2500 is well outside what I can spend on a bike light.

The other reason I think the reviews have been slow is that it's not night riding season for most, so many people who have these lights haven't had a chance to use them on the road or trail yet. That will change when the days get shorter and I'm sure and the feedback will increase.

The other thing that has perhaps distracted from the clear positivity is that Matt specifically asked for constructive criticism. So when little things are noticed, we have felt compelled to mention them here.

What ultimately matters is how this light stacks up against lights that cost $250+.
If it can compete with lights in it's price category, and provide longer battery life due to the reflector design and the efficient use of energy, then people will be happy.

I'm hoping to ride again tonight, this time with the OL light on my wife's bike (as it technically hers) and I will try to continue offering feedback.

-Jeremy


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Very happy with my road version. Not for everyone seeing as it uses a separate battery pack but exactly what I was looking for personally. Road worthy beam (instead of driver rage inducing lights made by all but a couple other brands like Ravemen) and enough power for high speeds in rural areas I live and ride in. 

For road use though, prefer more round beam lights for trail use, too wide for my tastes in the wood.

Many of us go into detail with our experience because something in those details may be important to others.

A simple "X stars" I'm happy with it gives so little information and every riders preferences are different.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Sisyphean (Jun 27, 2018)

MRMOLE said:


> RAKC's comments (below) pretty much cover what I think about this.
> 
> The OL road version will definitely work well at the distance range you mentioned but the XS will be brighter/more intense (with a narrower beam) and still have a good deal more throw in reserve. Those are characteristics I've noticed but opinions on which is better will have to wait till I get more time on the OL lights.
> Mole


Thanks for the responses guys..

I already have the Outbound Road, and I have a Gloworm XS ordered that will arrive on Monday. I intend on making a comparison for my (niche but growing) use case and then posting here.

I am not the typical MTBR patron however. But I have lurked on these forums for about 7 years. Never had a reason to post until now, when this light appeared on the scene, and I had questions, as this seems to be where the party is at.

Preliminary evaluation with the OB light has been very positive. I'll post more in a few days with a lot more detail.

EDIT: Conflated Gloworm and ITUO model numbers.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Sisyphean said:


> Thanks for the responses guys..
> 
> I already have the Outbound Road, and I have a Gloworm XP3 ordered that will arrive on Monday. I intend on making a comparison for my (niche but growing) use case and then posting here.
> 
> ...


Are you planning on using the Gloworm XS as a helmet light in combo with the OL Road on the bars or just comparing the two on a overall basis? Either way looking forward to hear what you think. Emitter tint of the Gloworm cool white versions are a very good match for the OL lights so they work well together IMO. Both are very nice lights!
Mole


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MrBucan said:


> ....I used the light in a dark room against a wall and you can realy see a cutoff line. Seems the light is brightest just below the cutoff which i would say maximizes the throw while still not blinding oncoming trafic. This is exactly what i wanted for my road trips. Cant w8 to try it in ride. First impressions are great.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to completely agree with what you just said. Looking at the wall shot; the hot spot on the beam pattern is in the perfect spot. This should give the user maximum visibility at the very far end of the beam pattern. This of course was by design and is what makes this lamp unique.

This said I'm not convinced yet that owning one of these would be the "end to end all " for road use. If you ride in wooded or rural areas there are just times when you need something for that extra punch. That is why I still carry the Gemini Duo on my bars to supplement the Raveman CR-900 I use ( < that also uses a cut-off beam pattern ). The Duo though I only use for high beam / momentary use. I have no doubt the OB lamp will have better overall throw than the Raveman type lamps but for those times when I need to see 200 feet plus, the big question; Is the OB going to be enough. :skep: Wish like hell the OB included a remote. If it did I might buy one. ( all of my primary lamps utilize some type of remote ).


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

The LED PCB is made of what? Regular FR4, aluminum, copper? (another interesting thermal thing in addition to the pink squares, scoop, and the connectors)

PS. It should be very easy to disassemble the light (thanks to OL's connector-based solder-less design)


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Ok went for a night ride at the local road last night and it was also my first time using spd system. Man what a difference, i was missing so much. It was such a pleasure pedaling without need to think of my feet on the pedals and cruising with the full light on but not blinding oncoming trafic. Width of the beam is enough to cover full width of the road and have a little extra. I cant exactly say how long the throw is, but i was enlighting road signs well ahead of time and never felt i was lacking visibility. Now, i dont have a gopro camera so i am unable to post any videos. To be clear, it cant enlighten 200 yards upfront but i doubt there is any bike light in this price range and power that can, and lets be real, you can get only so much from 1500 lumens. 
Now, i am also a light junkie and would love to have a light that can light up a kilometer away(woaha) but thats for another time and a different light.
All in all, totaly satisfied and certain it will serve me a long time.
And btw, for now i didnt had problems with the mount, but i mount my light on the fat part of bars closer to centre. Time will tell, but Matt said he is working on the issue anyway.

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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MrBucan said:


> ....To be clear, *it cant enlighten 200 yards upfront but i doubt there is any bike light in this price range and power that can, and lets be real, you can get only so much from 1500 lumens.*
> Now, i am also a light junkie and would love to have a light that can light up a kilometer away(woaha) but thats for another time and a different light.
> All in all, totaly satisfied and certain it will serve me a long time.
> And btw, for now i didnt had problems with the mount, but i mount my light on the fat part of bars closer to centre. Time will tell, but Matt said he is working on the issue anyway.
> ...


Oh heck. Sorry about that. * I was thinking "feet" and accidentally posted yards, my bad.* When I turn on my Duo it will give me at least 200 ft. or more of usable throw when used on a good road. ( I'll go back and edit that last post ) My Raveman ( CR-900 ) throws about *150 ft. on high on a good flat, dry asphalt road (*although that is just an visual estimate on my part ). Still like I said before, sometimes you need more if you are really moving. That is why I keep the Duo on stand-by.

Anyway, do you have an estimate on just how far the OB actual reaches when on high?


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

Just came from a night ride and this time i have chosen a totaly unlit road to see how long the throw is without any interference. 
I somehow measured it by counting my steps of aproximate 1m length. Anyway i came to a number of around 58-60 meters. Now to explain myself. The visibility is best starting from front of the bike(obviously duh) and going to first 30, 40 meters. 60 meters is the distance i find that is still iluminated in a meaningful way, past that it only iluminates large objects, so youl see a car, a house, a ditch etc but not in much detail. This is my experience, take it with a grain of salt, vision can differ from person to person.


Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MrBucan said:


> Just came from a night ride and this time i have chosen a totaly unlit road to see how long the throw is without any interference.
> I somehow measured it by counting my steps of aproximate 1m length. Anyway i came to a number of around 58-60 meters. Now to explain myself. The visibility is best starting from front of the bike(obviously duh) and going to first 30, 40 meters. 60 meters is the distance i find that is still iluminated in a meaningful way, past that it only iluminates large objects, so youl see a car, a house, a ditch etc but not in much detail. This is my experience, take it with a grain of salt, vision can differ from person to person.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


Thanks, that sounds very much like I expected. Close enough to 200ft to satisfy me. If I do a road ride tonight I'll try to do a walk-off measurement of what my CR-900 does. My visual estimate of 150 ft. might have been a tad too high.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> Thanks, that sounds very much like I expected. Close enough to 200ft to satisfy me. If I do a road ride tonight I'll try to do a walk-off measurement of what my CR-900 does. My visual estimate of 150 ft. might have been a tad too high.


Continued....Seems I was right. My initial estimate was wrong and the CR-900 throw is more like 108-110 ft. ( ~33 meters ) Could be I had the light aimed somewhat high when I first got it. Like what you said about the OB, you can see farther but only dimly and only objects that are larger. One hundred and ten feet though is the usable range. That said the OB of course has much more power than a lamp like the CR-900 as well as a more refined beam pattern. Of course if I wanted more throw from a Raveman I could always op for one of their dual emitter lamps which obviously can throw much farther....hmmm....just had a thought...with the high humidity I was dealing with it could be that had an effect on throw. I might have to check it again when the heat wave passes.

The ride I did tonight took a lot out of me. Temps dropped down to the mid 70's°F but what I failed to consider was the very high humidity. Humidity was near 91%. Even at those temps, once you start to get warm your body can't cool as well because the sweat on your skin won't evaporate fast enough to keep you from over-heating. I think this was the first time I ever had that happen when riding in the mid 70's. Glad I didn't take a MTB ride because that would of really did me in.


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## MrBucan (Sep 29, 2017)

I believe Raveman dual emiter lights only use half the power in cutoff low beam mode, for max throw you need to use the mountain mode which activates both sides, using both low and high beam which is blinding so cant be used constantly.

I do understand your need for a 2nd light when cycling hard, watched a video off Cr900 and the beam does look narrower and shorter then i would like to have a peace of mind. Ofc video is not exact representation of any lights posibilities. Tbh in the video Matt made showcasing road version, that beam looks narrower and shorter to me then what i experienced.

Picture is from my phones camera, it doesnt picks up full throw, i recon bellow a certain lux lvl it just shows black. But you can get a glimpse of the width you get, it covers full road with some extra to lit the side road scenery and i was on the right side of road. Helps a lot when turning also.









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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

I don’t know anything about these batteries, but is it possible to get a quicker charge on them? The included charger is what, 1.2A? Takes forever to charge that 6400mAh pack.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

farfromovin said:


> I don't know anything about these batteries, but is it possible to get a quicker charge on them? The included charger is what, 1.2A? Takes forever to charge that 6400mAh pack.


Google for everything. Don't know what type of connector the OB is using but likely one of these will work.



> MrBucan
> 
> I believe Raveman dual emiter lights only use half the power in cutoff low beam mode, for max throw you need to use the mountain mode which activates both sides, using both low and high beam which is blinding so cant be used constantly.


True, but if there is no on coming traffic you are pretty much good to go. This is one of the reasons why I wish the Raveman PR-1200 included a two button remote so you could more easily toggle between low and high beams. You can however activate the second ( high beam ) emitter by holding down the remote button and it will activate the second emitter as long as you keep holding down the button. Works pretty well in actual use as long as you don't need high beam for more than a few seconds. Otherwise if you need the high to stay on you need to reach over to the large button on the lamp and activate the dual emitter function that way. I don't use the PR-1200 for road use but only because I have limited room on my handlebars ( the mount for my stem mounted phone holder tends to get in the way ). The CR-900 on the other hand takes up less space.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

farfromovin said:


> I don't know anything about these batteries, but is it possible to get a quicker charge on them? The included charger is what, 1.2A? Takes forever to charge that 6400mAh pack.


You can use a slightly higher amperage charger (2A for example) and that'll reduce the charge time by about an hour or two. We had an option for a 2A charger, but the cost was almost 4x more than the 1.2A, figured most people wouldn't even tell that it charged 33% faster, and would have rather saved some money on the overall cost.

---------------------------

LED PCB is made of aluminum with laird thermal transfer material to improve the contact to the die cast housing on both top and bottom of the board.


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## Frisk (Jun 13, 2018)

"Just" received my lamp! Doesn't get even almost dark here until midnight but think I really need to take a test ride before bedtime. Comparing road, trail and magic shine mj872. Did an comparison in the basement, outbound has a lot warmer colour and i think the whole light is about as bright as mj-872 "hotspot" even if mj-872 has i much wider (and a little dimmer) hotspot than some other cheap lamp I have. It's also much warmer light than the other (it's not a Magic shine but it is more or less an mj-808).

The Iutbound lamp looks in my very short tests very steady with no low frequency PWM at the Magic shine has, both at power indicators and light output when not at max power, very disturbing running in snowfall or fallen leaves. 

To give some quick feedback I like the switch of the magic shine by turn on immediately at switch, but then the daymode should be some strange in this case.. other than that I would like a little little shorter time to turn on and off, I need to press little longer than what I think is initiative, 100ms? As it is now it's much longer than what can possibly be done by mistake. Not a problem at all but one very simple change which would make me more satisfied. 

Sounds good about the charger. I have one for the magic shine battery pack, think I'll keep one at the office and one home then. I like the long charging time, it gives less heat and less risk of an fire. it's also better for the battery. I'll manly use the lights for commuting and have all day at office or all night to charging it up.

9.15 pm just a little more one hour to sunset... love the long days, and doesn't miss the sunsets at 3 pm at all right now... but should be interesting to compare today!


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Last night's ride included my OL road, Wiz20, 2015 GW X2 and my camera. I messed up the the X2's shot a bit but if aimed properly its hot spot would have lit up the trees (approx. 120' away) in the center of the pics the brightest. Other than that these shots are actually a pretty good example of what I see with these lights. X2 has 2 spot optics, Wiz20 has 2 wide-spot optics for reference.
Mole

OL Road








GW X2 (2015)








Wiz20


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Speaking of Gloworm X2 comparisons, here is the two side by side on the same stretch of trail:






Can see how for real fast and real open downhill you might want something with more punch than just a single Trail edition if trying to get KOM on Strava (that's where the Downhill package comes into play). However the Trail lets you see deep into corners on twisty singletrack that a spot-like pattern will never let you do without an additional helmet light.

The camera obviously isn't picking up the extra residual light of the Trail edition either since there is a lot of low level light that is designed to spread out even further. There wasn't much additional light being thrown to the sides on the Gloworm.

-----------------------------------------------

We attended our first race last weekend for the Sunset Sizzler, and had 17 people demo out the lights. Four people bought them on the spot after trying it out which was great. The guy who placed second on the Marathon (nearly 3 hours of riding) bought it right after he finished, saying the light helped him place so high and loved the beam pattern! Always great to hear how the lighting can make the riding more comfortable so the mind can focus on just winning.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

*Alternate Bar Mounting*


While I've had no issues with the stock strap mount on my mtn bikes I struggled with the mount on my road bike because of how the bars were wrapped and interference with the cables/lines. Provided Gopro mount and a Gloworm QR bar mount provided a clean solution.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Speaking of Gloworm X2 comparisons, here is the two side by side on the same stretch of trail:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, as delivered the Gloworm X2 lacks adequate beam width used as a bar light for my taste. Gloworm does offer wide angle optics that will widen the beam considerably but not to the extent of your trail model. Standard optic configuration for the X2 is more helmet friendly and has the narrowest beam of any of the dual xm-l emitter Piko style lights I've tried.
Mole


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## Sisyphean (Jun 27, 2018)

MRMOLE said:


> Are you planning on using the Gloworm XS as a helmet light in combo with the OL Road on the bars or just comparing the two on a overall basis? Either way looking forward to hear what you think. Emitter tint of the Gloworm cool white versions are a very good match for the OL lights so they work well together IMO. Both are very nice lights!
> Mole


I run a bar light only. I do have an Olight S1r on my helmet that gives me 60 lumens for 4.5 hours on one charge. That's just for looking around in the ditches to the immediate sides and to have something to see with when I'm off the bike. The Olight is only 55 grams battery and all. I found that typical helmet lights over 100 grams start to strain my neck after an hour or so. But I'm also in a road position for long periods and I had a severe neck injury when I was younger. So my situation isn't typical.


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## rlb81 (Aug 18, 2008)

I plan to post a review regarding my road version soon, though I'd like to do a side-by-side comparison with my existing light first. I haven't looked (so excuse me if this is posted somewhere obvious) but is there any guidance on aiming the road version?

In the meantime I'm experiencing the same issue as MRMOLE. I'd be interested to see what other have come up with in terms of mounting options.



MRMOLE said:


> While I've had no issues with the stock strap mount on my mtn bikes I struggled with the mount on my road bike because of how the bars were wrapped and interference with the cables/lines. Provided Gopro mount and a Gloworm QR bar mount provided a clean solution.
> Mole


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## Sisyphean (Jun 27, 2018)

So I spent the last week evaluating the Outbound Road edition vs the 2018 Gloworm XS wireless. In the end I chose the Gloworm for myself and my son demanded that he keep the Outbound light for himself. So we ended up keeping both lights.

For myself, the Gloworm worked better because of the type of riding that I do. I'm a former triathlete turned endurance "gravel" racer. About half of my riding is on gravel roads and the other half on dark and broken up bituminous "asphalt" country roads at 20-25mph. The challenge for me was to be able to see pot holes, broken up shoulders, dips, etc on bad blacktop in the pitch dark at speed. The gravel sections have never been an issue because they are much lighter. But the really black country pavement has been problematic for me. The bottom line is that I desire more throw and raw lumens further ahead on these sections.

I will say that for most riders on the road, the Outbound light is superior. The quality of the illumination is amazing. There is something about it where everything is lit up with what I would describe as a very clean, crisp and wide view. The beam is so wide and evenly lit that when moving the bars (like in a sprint) it doesn't even affect the lighting ahead of you. It always looks the same. Smooth and even... unlike with most lights where there is a distracting hot spot whipping back and forth across the road. It also feels brighter overall because there is less of a tunnel effect going on. You can see the sides of the road more clearly than with other lights. It is pretty confidence inspiring.

For commuters, or anyone riding in traffic, the Outbound is the obvious choice. We did a "glare test" where my wife was driving the car while I rode past several times to see how well the cutoff worked. I had to kick the Gloworm all the way down to 400 lumens to get the glare down to the level of the Outbound light when on it's highest setting. For myself, this is workable with the remote button on the Gloworm. With the Outbound Road, there is no need to even switch to a lower mode when cars approach.

I am very happy with both lights.

Here are some beam pics I painstakingly took of the Outbound Road, Gloworm XS and our 2018 Honda Civic headlights so you can tell what to expect. These pics are pretty close to what you will see with the naked eye. Probably 10 to 20% brighter with your eyes. The Outbound pic also doesn't do it justice on the sides because the camera doesn't have as wide a field of view as your eyes. To the immediate left and right of that light, the road is better lit up than what the pic appears to represent.

For reference the power pole on the right in the distance is 280 feet from the speed limit sign. Or a little over 300 feet from the camera. The car is about 25 feet further forward.

Outbound Road Edition:








2018 Gloworm XS (neutral white):








2018 Honda Civic (low beam, both headlights):


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Love the car headlight shot! While we’re scrutinizing design differences of bicycle lights they still blow the doors off of car headlights lol.


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

It's interesting ( (c) me  )... From these shots it looks like the OL-road isn't concentrating much light right below the cutoff, to form a very bright thin line (as I think automotive should). If it is so, why it wasn't done for OL-road, while Honda (looks like) did it?

People wrote previously that the illumination is very bright. Would it then be better, to rearrange the pattern, move some light from the "majority" of pattern (e.g., the near field looks very bright) to that (desirable) thin bright line? (this is essentially the same as what *MRMOLE* and *RAKC Ind* wrote, that OL-road doesn't have the throw of a lens-based light).


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

abvgdee said:


> It's interesting ( (c) me  )... From these shots it looks like the OL-road isn't concentrating much light right below the cutoff, to form a very bright thin line (as I think automotive should). If it is so, why it wasn't done for OL-road, while Honda (looks like) did it?
> 
> People wrote previously that the illumination is very bright. Would it then be better, to rearrange the pattern, move some light from the "majority" of pattern (e.g., the near field looks very bright) to that (desirable) thin bright line? (this is essentially the same as what *MRMOLE* and *RAKC Ind* wrote, that OL-road doesn't have the throw of a lens-based light).


Throw has nothing to do with reflector, lens or optic. It's all about designed beam pattern.

The OL light does have more light concentrated near the cut off. But not all of it. It's meant to provide wide coverage. Same is done with other lights by changing optics. Loose throw to spread the light wider. That's the point of wide angle or flood optics/lens. Sacrifice throw to spread the coverage.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## QCrr (Jun 25, 2018)

Ya @abvgdee I'm seeing something similar here **EDIT at a distance of 25 feet**. According to my light meter, the light has a well defined upper bound but illuminance increases gradually below the cutoff line to the peak illuminance (14 foot-candles) about 25 inches below the cutoff. But I think this doesn't seem to be too problematic in practice, this light does provide good illumination in a very wide beam, but ya I guess it won't illuminate the road evenly to the same distance an auto light would.

On the recumbent, I initially felt the beam didn't throw far enough, but after making some adjustments to the cable routing to improve my forward vision (I have an M5 M-Racer--handlebars are little bit below my eye level so that interferes with how close I can see the road), I think it does work well. Again really like the very wide beam, being able to see into low speed turns at intersections is super nice unlike other narrower cutoff beams.

However the low mounting (29.5 inch beam height) does make the light very bright close to the bike. It is 40 foot candles 11 feet away. But doesn't effect my night vision too badly since the handlebars/legs block my vision that close to the bike anyways. Ideally this bike (and fork crown mounting) should have a reflector designed for the lower mounting height

I think though this is probably best overall of the cutoff beam headlights I've used:

pros: light head is lightweight and well sealed, can attach a rigid mount to the light head, battery is very high capacity, the beam is very wide, total light output is excellent

cons: cutoff on beam is a bit gradual, foreground too bright with a lower mounting point

EDIT2: I have the road edition
EDIT3: reworded last independent clause of 1st paragraph
EDIT4: added high light output to pros


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## Sisyphean (Jun 27, 2018)

abvgdee said:


> It's interesting ( (c) me  )... From these shots it looks like the OL-road isn't concentrating much light right below the cutoff, to form a very bright thin line (as I think automotive should). If it is so, why it wasn't done for OL-road, while Honda (looks like) did it?
> 
> People wrote previously that the illumination is very bright. Would it then be better, to rearrange the pattern, move some light from the "majority" of pattern (e.g., the near field looks very bright) to that (desirable) thin bright line? (this is essentially the same as what *MRMOLE* and *RAKC Ind* wrote, that OL-road doesn't have the throw of a lens-based light).


Let's not forget that the Honda pic is two 55-watt H11 halogens. The combined output would be approximately 2500 lumens (same as the Gloworm XS). It is also very warm. I would guess about 4000K. The beam pattern is really tight. It's good for what it's designed for... seeing far down the road at 55mph. But I wouldn't want those lights on my bike. That flat rectangular beam twisting, turning and bouncing around on a handlebar would be terrible.

They also don't put much light onto the road until about 25 feet out, and pretty much nothing to the immediate sides.

Remember, this is on dark pavement in pitch black conditions. A worst case scenario.

The Outbound Road Edition illuminates everything you need to see out to about 100-150 feet, with the added benefit of unparalleled side illumination. Also, the clarity of the light is amazing. It really brings out contrast in seeing objects and features of the road surface. Curiously, you can kick it down to the medium setting and can still see about 80-90% of what you can see while on high. This is great for battery life. And no need to fiddle with settings when cars approach.

The Gloworm XS (tested on high, 2500 lumens) of course has more throw, but less light up close and to the sides. Also shorter run time. I had to get a second battery pack because many of my rides are over two hours. So I'm out $450 on that setup. It also blinds the hell out of drivers if you don't kick it down to a very low setting when they approach.

I think the next evolution for Outbound road lighting would be a dual-emitter with a high and low beam. If it were to add a tight spot further out, combined with it's incredible near view illumination, it would be the ultimate.

Supernova has done something similar with their M99 Pro. But their hammer shaped beam pattern is all goofy, and that lighthead is over $500 and you'd have to rig up your own custom battery pack and then pray it all works.

That said, the Outbound is very good already for most riders. On clean roads, dirt or gravel, it's plenty. Just look at MRMOLE's example pic on the dirt. You can't hardly ask for better illumination than that.

EDIT: Replied to wrong post


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Sisyphean said:


> Let's not forget that the Honda pic is two 55-watt H11 halogens. The combined output would be approximately 2500 lumens (same as the Gloworm XS)....
> 
> ....I think the next evolution for Outbound road lighting would be a dual-emitter with a high and low beam. If it were to add a tight spot further out, combined with it's incredible near view illumination, it would be the ultimate.


While the halogen bulb rating you give is correct you need to consider that most car electrical systems output more than 12 volt. ( 13.2 volts would not be unusual coming out of the alternator ). That means those 12 volt bulbs are being over-volted. My guess is that this is going to give you another 1K lumen.

I don't think OB is going to provide a High/low beam bike light. Making an all-in-one high/low would no doubt require a much bigger size lamp head. Not really sure how most people wanting a lamp for their bike would respond to that. If I was a racer I'd put the OB on the bars and something like a Gloworm X2 or Gemini Duo on the lid ( both have wireless remotes ) and use that as your high beam ( when needed ). I actually use a Duo on the bars to supplement my Raveman CR-900's cut-off beam pattern. Duo has some outstanding throw if setup with dual spots. Even going down a hill at 35 mph I don't think I can outrun the throw of the Duo with dual spots. Added plus if helmet mounted; If a car comes along while you have it on just point the lamp off to the side of the road for a moment.


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

QCrr said:


> ...the light has a well defined upper bound...


Let's wait for the pro of course. I'd just note in the meanwhile, that the angle between the upper bound and the hotspot is approx. 1/12*180/pi = 4.7 degrees. This is approx, but still considerably more than the 3.4 required for StVZO (if it's really 4.7, then my old Philips Saferide sends OL-road his regards, from 2010). Is it the other, side effect of the great blending-smudging lens?



QCrr said:


> It is also very warm.


A warmer color may be another thing to prefer over extra-bright illumination.



Sisyphean said:


> Let's not forget that the Honda pic is two 55-watt H11 halogens.


I am... an amateur, excuse me, so it was a surpise for me to learn that this "old" technology is being currently installed on newest cars... Confused... :skep:



Sisyphean said:


> But I wouldn't want those lights on my bike. That flat rectangular beam twisting, turning and bouncing...


Not arguing, just raising questions. (like why Honda did squeeze all light to a line, with old tech, and OL didn't (?) with new tech)



Sisyphean said:


> Outbound is very good already for most riders. ... You can't hardly ask for better illumination than that.


Oh, I'm very picky. Give me some real data (proper wall shot measurements), and I _will_ ask for better illumination!  (unfortunately, real data is never available; from any manufacturer, OL no exception here).

There were "techy bits" and "nerdy bits" on the OL web site. (pretty useless, IMO: _pseudo_-engineering, sort of advertizing). I don't see them anymore. Gone? I'd say those bits would be great if developed (real data added, like HDR wall shot with angles grid). Instead I see the appeal to pro-riders (as opposed to amateurs), which is also great... but...


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Cat-man-do said:


> I don't think OB is going to provide a High/low beam bike light. Making an all-in-one high/low would no doubt require a much bigger size lamp head.


I am no optical expert at all, but may be it depends on how good you do it?

May be stupid idea, but why not just add an extra LED ahead of the main one? I'm sure such upper pattern won't compare with the true trail pattern, but it may still be ok as DRL, as a signal, or for a quick occasional offroad part. Could be great (and cheap) feature, IMO.

About the full-fledged (and larger in size lighthead) dual-pattern (reply to your post, so you may remember):


Outbound said:


> It's definitely in the future planning though! I'd absolutely love to have a "do everything" kind of light...


It is great when people discuss and request features. That's what could push OL to make next light better. Otherwise we'll see bluetooth for smartphone integration, remote (easy to DIY), firmware upgrades, etc... _with old optics_ (OL mentioned the tooling costs quite a few times). More requests - more chances we'll see it!


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I will say since I know OB personally, even with my knowledge of lighting systems and as much as I geek over it, keeping pace in a convo with him when we start geeking out over lights is tough. Hard to keep up with an optical engineer in the LED lighting industry. 

And the info they had on the website was not what you think. It was simplifying the technical details to make sense to most who have no desire to try to learn and understand in depth technical engineering side of things. 

I dont fully understand the criticism though. Your strict about only buying low budget lights (which none will have this level of engineering and design involved) and have said your understanding of these matters is lacking. Compared to OB mine is lacking as well.

New design products are meant to fill a void, and that's what this light does, especially for something that's road friendly and has solid output. This process costs and most dont care about the in depth tech details. Few do and companies wont release proprietary specs so have to try for yourself before making a real judgement on something.

But want something that is above and beyond you have to pay for it. Or have to suffer with cheap imported stuff. Seeing how things work is always best done first hand.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

abvgdee said:


> I am no optical expert at all, but may be it depends on how good you do it?
> 
> *May be stupid idea, but why not just add an extra LED ahead of the main one? I'm sure such upper pattern won't compare with the true trail pattern, but it may still be ok as DRL, as a signal, or for a quick occasional offroad part. Could be great (and cheap) feature, IMO.*
> 
> ...


( Sorry, I wrote this earlier in the day and forgot to post it )

No it's not a stupid idea, just one that may be very hard to implement and still be marketable. Outbound did say he'd liked the idea of an all-in-one lamp so if he thinks he can do it by all means, who am I to stand in the way.

In the mean time if Raveman were to incorporate a two button remote ( has single button remote at this time ) that would give the PR-1200 series lamp a true easy access high beam button, I would be on one of those real quick. Even better if they would do this with something using an external battery. That way they could give you something like a 3-up with the center LED using the cut-off lens, the outer LED's being the high beams with the finishing touch of being able to add more output power and run time to the user.

In the mean time I can do this just by using two lamps. For me this is not a problem although obviously it would be nicer if I only had to mount one lamp.


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## Sisyphean (Jun 27, 2018)

I went out tonight, took some measurements, and overlaid them on the OB light image. You can see very well up to the 100 foot mark. The practical limit to where you can no longer make out features on the road is about 160 feet.

The forum software degrades the image when resizing, but in the original you can see the tire marks on the pavement almost up to the 160 foot mark.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Very good picture. Sometimes it helps to show more detail in the distance if you crop the photo and zoom in to the distance. I just now tried this using your photo. Didn't get the results I was hoping for but that is only because we are dealing with the limitations of the photo itself and the fact that you probably didn't use a fancy camera or a tripod. However I was able to bring out more detail to the sides of the road by adding more contrast to the orignal. It looks like you were riding down a road with corn fields on both sides. Anyway, not a bad photo considering all the limitations.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Man I go away to Seattle for a work trip and it all blows up on here. 

Regarding the technical stuff, yep, the website is more of a high level overview since most people's eyes do glaze over when they start seeing numbers, or worse, they misinterpret them. It happens all the time with lighting especially. It's pretty funny seeing the bounce rate on certain pages. Those who land on this blog: https://www.outboundlighting.com/twice-many-lumens-means-ill-see-twice-far-right-well-no/ seem to stay on it for either 5 minutes or 15 seconds. Majority is 15 seconds. 

------------------------

I am very hesitant giving away too many hard numbers for my beam pattern design because that is one of the few proprietary items that is indeed a bit hard to reverse engineer properly unless have a goniophotometer and the software packages I have access to. I have talked about some of the higher level things about HOW I've designed it, but I am not going to be publishing the targeted candela amounts at certain angles and such. If someone wants to buy one, and reverse engineer it, I am all for it, but I am not going to just give it away and publish it online for people to easily find. I think this is pretty customary across the board. Heck most light manufactures wouldn't even be able to tell you the actual beam profile besides some peak numbers because all they've done is pick out an optic in a catalog.

--------------

A high-low is technically possible, but not in the immediate future. I have some trick ideas for that, but it would not work on the current design since the LED is already on the edge of the MPCB, and cannot easily add another one up front along with remote switching. Cannot start a new design until sales pick up. So we'll see after the fall.

-------------

New straps are on the way, and will be sending them out to everyone as soon as they come in.


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## QCrr (Jun 25, 2018)

QCrr said:


> ...25 inches...


oops so I think the white glossy tile floor near to where I was measuring was throwing off the measurement.. I measured outside over light brown gravel at 25 feet and probably better to say the brightest illumination is the region ~10 to ~30 inches below the cutoff (29.5 inch beam height). But these measurements probably are not super accurate I think.

on the high low issue I think I a high beam is certainly nice, but I don't think it is stricly necessary though when average speeds might peek for most at 20-27 mph on unfaired bicycles.

oh ya really good picture! I think that is pretty close to how the light illuminates from when I was trying it out on the mountain bike (which doe

ya the engineering (and from the US) is superb!

ooo cool on the straps!


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> the current design .


I figured I'd give it some time for you to figure out before I asked the prototype vs. production max. lux discrepancy question. These are very nice lights and I'm happy with my purchase but also curious why the production models max. lux numbers ended up being so much lower than the prototype's produced?
Mole


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## Sisyphean (Jun 27, 2018)

Cat-man-do said:


> Very good picture. Sometimes it helps to show more detail in the distance if you crop the photo and zoom in to the distance. I just now tried this using your photo. Didn't get the results I was hoping for but that is only because we are dealing with the limitations of the photo itself and the fact that you probably didn't use a fancy camera or a tripod. However I was able to bring out more detail to the sides of the road by adding more contrast to the orignal. It looks like you were riding down a road with corn fields on both sides. Anyway, not a bad photo considering all the limitations.


I took these with a newer iPhone. They are vertical because when I tried to take it in the horizontal aspect the camera would insist on focusing on the beam on the ground and would noticeably over correct and darken the picture.

In vertical mode I could pull it off by tricking it into focusing in the black space at the top of the screen

I got out my Canon 70D today and thought I'd replicate these with a real camera, but the battery won't hold a charge for more than about 2 minutes. I guess I let it sit unused for too long. So I have one on order and will try this out hopefully over the weekend.

Anyone have any suggestions as to settings on a DLSR to realistically capture these type of images? (bright beam within a dark background)


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Sisyphean said:


> any suggestions as to settings on a DLSR to realistically capture these type of images? (bright beam within a dark background)


"Realistically" = as you see? A dream, I'd venture to say. Every compact camera maker will advertize their proprietary firmware algorithm as "now the most realistic ever!".

Getting down to reality... SLRs are good for another reason: they provide a hoard of hidden, but available data. Huge sensor (and accompanying huge lens) grabs a lot of light (compared with compacts). So due to lots of input data (=light), the measurements have much higher accuracy. So you can unveil the dark tones in a raw editor. (if you do it for a shot from a compact camera, you'll get mainly noise).

You can however fumble it all with SLR if it turns out that camera shake is unacceptable. You'll set too fast exposure (and high ISO) to make image sharp, so there will be little light, so results will be like with a compact camera.

So, *bottomline*: Optionally: use a tripod, won't hurt, but may turn out to be unnecessary. ISO sens -> minimum (usually 100). Use timer to reduce camera shake from pressing buttons. Then _*adjust curves yourself* in raw editor the way it looks "most realistic"_.

However, if you do use a tripod, you can use just about any compact camera (raw-capable) for same purpose, if you combine (later) several shots with several exposures into a single shot (this is called HDR=high dynamic range). This way you can get even much better results, with a cheap compact, than with single shot from any high-end SLR.

And... a place ideally should be wide, without walls on the sides (hard to find; tried myself several years ago). You can put some objects at some distances as markers. And the near field - would be great if shown right from the wheel. Yeah... I'm not sure you knew what it _could_ take -- when you wrote that you took those shots "painstakingly"


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## rlb81 (Aug 18, 2008)

Sisyphean said:


> Anyone have any suggestions as to settings on a DLSR to realistically capture these type of images? (bright beam within a dark background)


Some discussion here, though on the old side...

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-diy-do-yourself/camera-settings-beam-shots-825235.html


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Oh... 

First. It is a bit illiterate to recommend specific settings for all cameras. To get same perspective, noise level, and depth of field, the settings should be converted to full-frame equivalent using camera sensor *_crop factor_*.

If "reference" is Canon G9, with crop=35/7.4=4.7297, with triple (ISO100 4s F4.0), then its full-frame equivalent will have (roughly, depends on sensor generation): isoFF=crop^2*isoG9=2237, apertureFF=crop*apertureG9=18.919, exposure same 4s.

D70 is not full-frame (APS-C), crop=1.59, so iso and aperture should similarly be "equivalented". Set isoD70=isoFF/crop^2=884.85, and apertureD70=apertureFF/crop=11.899, exposure same 4s.

Zoom (focal distance) is much more important than the above noise=iso and dof=aperture because it defines perspecitve. But it's not specified in the "reference standard" (may be due to absence of step zoom in G9). Ask the author (Valerie?) and use his equivalent.

Second, *most important*. Just forget it all. Really. Do as you see the fit. Nobody will care comparing your shots with that "standard" anyway.


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## Sisyphean (Jun 27, 2018)

abvgdee said:


> I'm not sure you knew what it _could_ take -- when you wrote that you took those shots "painstakingly"


Yea, "painstakingly" meaning I had to take a LOT of pictures to get a few that looked right. In the end, the best results were using HDR, holding the iphone very, very still and focusing the camera on the black space.

I tried to do video, but those turned out very dark.

I'll see what I can accomplish with the DSLR.


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## rlb81 (Aug 18, 2008)

abvgdee said:


> Second, *most important*. Just forget it all. Really. Do as you see the fit. Nobody will care comparing your shots with that "standard" anyway.


Haha probably the best advice. I would think, however, that any one person would want to use the same settings on the same camera when taking pictures to compare two different lights.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

abvgdee said:


> ....So, *bottomline*: Optionally: use a tripod, won't hurt, but may turn out to be unnecessary. ISO sens -> minimum (usually 100). Use timer to reduce camera shake from pressing buttons. Then _*adjust curves yourself* in raw editor the way it looks "most realistic"_.
> 
> However, if you do use a tripod, you can use just about any compact camera (raw-capable) for same purpose, if you combine (later) several shots with several exposures into a single shot (this is called HDR=high dynamic range). This way you can get even much better results, with a cheap compact, than with single shot from any high-end SLR....


Without getting too technical with all the camera setting stuff, use with a tripod will do wonders. ( you need to remove the shake, tripod and timer does that pretty well ) Of course not many of us are going to carry a full size tripod on a bike ride. ( although I've done it before, total PITA I do say. ) That said when I do beam shots I like looking at the POV as if sitting on the bike ( at head height ). Need I say, unless you have a really tall tripod that would be almost impossible.

Then there is the problem in what to do with the bike while you are fiddling with a camera. On MTB rides I've used broken tree branches to hold the bike up straight and I've used a portable camera mount that attaches to a tree to stabilize the camera. I haven't used that setup in years though and since I no longer have a working compact digital camera I wouldn't be able to use it anyway. I thought of buying another compact digital camera but damn they want some bucks for those things now.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Cat

I have to agree carrying a tripod is a PITA!!!

Luckily in my case I have a couple trails I can drive up to crossings so I only have to walk a short distance. The one I have used is 2 stage extendable to that helps a little.

Hard to justify and expensive camera just for beam shots though so most its phone, gopro, or something not huge and expensive.

Even rider perspective beam shots dont tell the whole story, trying to get a picture that sees what the human eye can see isnt cheap or easy to work with. 

Leaves us with seeing beam shots and owning lights to get a perspective as to what the camera is leaving out. Biggest annoyance is hot spots from what I've experienced. Hot spot takes over sometimes which is really annoying. Want to see the full effect of the spread you get this hard to look at spot in the middle (in the picture)

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

That's why I have been pretty happy with the GoPro6 Black on my face when riding. In the superview it accurately captures the FOV that we actually see. Low light performance is pretty good, and aside from missing out on the super low level light it's a pretty good indicator of how the lights perform and the beam pattern comparison.

I also am not a fan of static beam shot photos. To me movement is what really tells the story. Either that or Goniophotometer charts, but won't find any of those for bike lights.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Outbound said:


> T
> ..I also am not a fan of static beam shot photos. To me movement is what really tells the story. Either that or Goniophotometer charts, but won't find any of those for bike lights.


Yeah, we all love a good video but with video ( even good ones ) you can't tell perspective so well because all the imagery is going by so fast. Up until recently a lot of videos I'm seen looked really grainy and low resolution. Some of the recent ones I've seen though have looked much better. Both yours and RAKC's look really good. It pays to have better equipment when you want to promote a product.

Personally, I like me a good static beam shot. Key to this though is a good camera and a steady hand coupled with distance indicators so people can judge the distance the light is throwing.

Now with all this said I've been thinking a lot about buying something like a Gopro camera and setup for doing videos. I might actually be able to get me a brand new Gopro camera from my job ( part of my companies' award program ). If I'm going to buy one though I want the stuff that is going to give me the best resolution. Any recommendations you can give when it comes to cameras I'd love to hear about. As far as riding with a camera I doubt I'd try to mount the camera to my helmet. I'd likely go with one of those chest mounted setups. That said would be nice if something like this also worked with BT ( with my phone ) so I can see what the camera is looking at while I'm sitting on the bike. Any tips on doing all this would be much appreciated.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cat-man-do said:


> Yeah, we all love a good video but with video ( even good ones ) you can't tell perspective so well because all the imagery is going by so fast. Up until recently a lot of videos I'm seen looked really grainy and low resolution. Some of the recent ones I've seen though have looked much better. Both yours and RAKC's look really good. It pays to have better equipment when you want to promote a product.
> 
> Personally, I like me a good static beam shot. Key to this though is a good camera and a steady hand coupled with distance indicators so people can judge the distance the light is throwing.
> 
> Now with all this said I've been thinking a lot about buying something like a Gopro camera and setup for doing videos. I might actually be able to get me a brand new Gopro camera from my job ( part of my companies' award program ). If I'm going to buy one though I want the stuff that is going to give me the best resolution. Any recommendations you can give when it comes to cameras I'd love to hear about. As far as riding with a camera I doubt I'd try to mount the camera to my helmet. I'd likely go with one of those chest mounted setups. That said would be nice if something like this also worked with BT ( with my phone ) so I can see what the camera is looking at while I'm sitting on the bike. Any tips on doing all this would be much appreciated.


I can't recomend the Hero6 Black enough. I love it, and used to use only the Hero2, lightyears ahead of what they used to be.

I use a rather odd setup for my videos, mostly because I want to be able to truly see what I am looking at, so I wear a headband, and then use a boom to put the GoPro in front of my mouth. Stays pretty stable (as seen on the videos I've put out) and the audio comes through crystal clear. It's not terribly bad once you get used to it. Would I wear it for hours and hours? Nah. But for a quick 30 minute ride to get some footage it's great.

Ignore my ugly mug.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Rotflmao. If it works that's all that matters.

I have a hero 5b and 5 session. Works amazingly well.

Couldnt imagine trying to fly through trails with a camera right there. Next time I'm down (and can ride, I'll be in a sling when I come down over labor day, shoulder surgery the week before) I want proof you can ride and not hit things that way 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

outbound said:


> .....ignore my ugly mug.
> 
> View attachment 1207658


cyborg!!!!


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

I also love the Hero6 cause you can do amazing resolution if you need to but mainly cause it’s so much better at handling the changes in light with shadows and bright spots. The key though for any mtb video is a gimbal. I use a GoPro karma grip and it’s a little bulky but works awesome. Lots of people use the Feiyu Tech stuff from Amazon.


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

Outbound, I apologize for the derisive tone of some of my above "questions". Thank you for not taking insults from them.


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

oops, mistake, deleted


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Had another nice long ride with the road version Sunday night. Not too many surprises with this light for me since I've got a good amount of hours of use with it but I did find my riding buddy's reaction to it interesting. George is a mechanic at a lbs and has always run Niteriders (1500 and 1000 pro, OLED 800 Lumina), so typical medium width round beam than creates a hot spot in whatever light I've ever taken on a ride with him. I usually run neutral white lights which admittedly look yellow/dim when combined with cool white lights like the Niteriders he uses so I don't think he's normally very impressed with what I'm running but not so with the OL road version. I think he was paying closer attention because he liked the fact that the light was US made + the tint of the OL was closer to his Niteriders + the wide smooth beam of the OL road lighthead equalled a very impressed George (and it's hard to tell with him). At one point we were riding along a unlit canal bank and I covered my light with my hand and I was even surprised how much visibility was lost with only his lights left running. Even beam coverage works really well!
Mole


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## Tunnelrat81 (Nov 13, 2011)

I do the same thing while riding with our older MS lights. Once you've gotten used to the OL light, covering it up has a jarring effect. A week or two ago I was descending one of our local twisty roads with the OL road version on my wife's bike, and it was the most comfortable nighttime descent of that road I've experienced, by a margin, and the light wasn't even on my bike.

-Jeremy


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Glad seeing the light! 

We had a similar reaction when launching the lightbars I had designed for another company. I focused on an even beam width with a rectangular beam pattern and soft falloffs, forgoing high peak numbers and big lumens. In head-to-head wall shot tests the "other" bars would "win" but once people used the optics I designed on the road, and more importantly in races it became more clear what I had intended. Right now our lightbars are on half the rally cars in the US in less than a year.






Most lights were intense circular spots just like a lot of bike lights. So teams would have 4-5 of these aimed slightly off and would see 4 or 5 different hotspots while sliding through the corners. Instead now it's just a wide even wall of light that makes driving (and riding) at night a lot more comfortable.

New straps arrive Monday, and hope to get them out to everyone ASAP. Then I can start sending these lights out to reviewers and influencers. Last thing I wanted was to send a light out for review and have that 8% chance that it'd break. Would be disastrous!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Thought some of you guys might find this interesting. I put together a "How It's Made" page on the site showing the construction of the light.

https://www.outboundlighting.com/how-its-made/


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

That was AWESOME!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Vancbiker said:


> That was AWESOME!


Thanks! Took a while to shoot in the whitebox, but I hope can show exactly what goes into each of these lights.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

@Outbound; People are going to like that page that explains "How it is made". You need to add that link to your signature ( at the bottom of your posts )


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## robojet (Jul 25, 2018)

I've been following this thread for a few weeks. I'm looking into getting my first light(s). An option I was considering that was previously discussed is the Outbound Trail with the Gloworm X2. The Gloworm Cool White was cited as the best color match for the Outbound, but I see they have Daylight and Neutral White as the only options. Did they change their options?

Thanks!


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

robojet said:


> I've been following this thread for a few weeks. I'm looking into getting my first light(s). An option I was considering that was previously discussed is the Outbound Trail with the Gloworm X2. The Gloworm Cool White was cited as the best color match for the Outbound, but I see they have Daylight and Neutral White as the only options. Did they change their options?
> 
> Thanks!


Daylight is Gloworms version of cool white and similar in tint to the Outbound lights. X2 works well for spotting surprises around up coming corners and illuminating trail features beyond the reach of the Outbound trail.
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

robojet said:


> I've been following this thread for a few weeks. I'm looking into getting my first light(s). An option I was considering that was previously discussed is the Outbound Trail with the Gloworm X2. The Gloworm Cool White was cited as the best color match for the Outbound, but I see they have Daylight and Neutral White as the only options. Did they change their options?
> 
> Thanks!


If you are considering getting two lights, might I suggest the downhill package? It's the road version for your head, trail version for the bars, extension cord, two batteries, two chargers, gopro mounts, gopro helmet mount and the bar mounts. They work together amazingly well.

https://www.outboundlighting.com/product/downhill-led-bike-lighting-best-mountain-bike-light/

This video (starts around the 6 minute mark) shows how the light carpets in front blend together seamlessly, along with the extra punch of the road reflector to make for a pretty awesome riding experience.






Plus cheaper than buying an X2 and a trail separately.


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## robojet (Jul 25, 2018)

Outbound said:


> If you are considering getting two lights, might I suggest the downhill package?


I am considering 2 lights, but thinking about getting one now and one later in the year. I have thought about downhill package, but I was leaning towards a smaller profile light for my helmet. Side note: I had been researching lights for about 3 months and was pretty unhappy with the options available at certain price points. I was just about ready to DIY something because I wanted some serious light so I could see down the road, but also width so I could see what was around me. By complete accident I came across this thread. I eagerly read through every post from the beginning and was so happy to find what I was looking for! I just want to say thank you for creating this light at a price I think is completely reasonable 



MRMOLE said:


> Daylight is Gloworms version of cool white and similar in tint to the Outbound lights. X2 works well for spotting surprises around up coming corners and illuminating trail features beyond the reach of the Outbound trail.
> Mole


Thank you for the clarification! Is it safe to assume that all Gloworms models with "Daylight" would be a good color match, or would that be a mistake?

I'm also wondering if the Alpha model would be a good choice, or would I be losing too much to save a few dollars?


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

robojet said:


> Thank you for the clarification! Is it safe to assume that all Gloworms models with "Daylight" would be a good color match, or would that be a mistake?
> 
> I'm also wondering if the Alpha model would be a good choice, or would I be losing too much to save a few dollars?


I got my X2 back from Action Led, I sent it off to have the NW emitters swapped for the Daylight versions, it was a fast and very reasonable service. It is indeed now a much better match for the OL Trail, and they go together nicely. I am sure the OL Road and Trail would also be an excellent combo, but I think having the wireless bar mounted remote for the X2 on the helmet seals the deal for me.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

robojet said:


> Thank you for the clarification! Is it safe to assume that all Gloworms models with "Daylight" would be a good color match, or would that be a mistake?
> 
> I'm also wondering if the Alpha model would be a good choice, or would I be losing too much to save a few dollars?


I'm actually not sure if the Alpha (and CX Urban) match the other Gloworm lights since these 2 have different emitters (XP-G3) but would think they're pretty close (I own a Alpha but it's NW). Alpha would work fine with a Outbound trail. Besides being less expensive than the X2 the Alpha is also a little smaller (I can't even tell when its on my helmet) plus only requires about 60% of the current draw of an X2 to produce similar throw (narrower beam). Main advantage of the X2 is the wireless remote switch. Both lights are very good throwers and if you need more there's always the XS.
Mole


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## robojet (Jul 25, 2018)

MRMOLE said:


> Both lights are very good throwers and if you need more there's always the XS.
> Mole


Great info. Really appreciate it. I was looking at the Gloworm website as well as action-led. It seems that the color option (Daylight/Neutral White) is only offered by action-led. The Gloworm website does not indicate what the color is... so I'm not sure what I would be getting there. Is this a service that action-led provides that you can't get from Gloworm?


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## eTrex_FSR (Dec 18, 2009)

Gloworm standard is dailight tint. Only action lights rework the leds to a second option.
I send you a pm with some additional info.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Had a nice group ride the other night, letting everyone demo the lights, and a few people who had already been using the lights for a long time.

Going to have another group ride in the STL area (Lost Valley) next sunday (August 5th) at 8pm where anyone interested can demo any of the light setups we have.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Just went on a brief suburban road ride (neighborhood streets with streetlights). Comments:

1. Good color temperature and rendition.

2. Generally even "carpet" of light in front of bike.

3. Can still see some stripes of uneven light within the beam pattern, which means when I rock the handlebars back and forth they show up. Not as bad as a hot spot that moves back and forth, but still... Can the silicone diffuser be improved further to make the light more even?

4. Overall the beam pattern is good, but I would have preferred a lump of light far forwards and center like I assumed from the simulation plots. 
I attached a MS paint drawing to show what I mean. The light blue diagram is what the OL road beam pattern feels like, and the green is what I prefer. Both these patterns have the same "beam angle" as defined by the two sloped lines on each side.








5.Dam, this takes a long time to charge. I have a battery charger with customizable settings for use with RC car batteries. What is the connector on this battery, and what settings should I use to charge this?

6.Setting #3 and #4 are nearly the same brightness

7. I haven't had a chance yet to try my typical night ride, which is up and down a twisty road in the hills. The main issues here will be how good is the side illumination, and whether the beam sweeping back and forth as I slowly crawl up the hill will be annoying or not.

8.Any plans for a head tube mount, or link to some kind of Go-pro adapter bracket thing?

9. Light needs a little bit more of a "visor" from the case, so that when I stand and pedal on the uphills, it won't blind me when I look down.

10. I don't like the mounting strap because the settings are too discrete, and either the light is too tight or loose. I prefer the plastic clamps with a screw to tighten.

11. Center of mass should be above mounting point, otherwise, hitting bumps will eventually cause the light to dip downwards.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

beanbag said:


> Just went on a brief suburban road ride (neighborhood streets with streetlights). Comments:
> 
> 1. Good color temperature and rendition.
> 
> ...


3. Working with the supplier to try and improve the lenses in future runs. We are always going to keep on trying to improve on all aspects of the light. 

4. Are you using the trail or the road?

5. Standard DC5521 connector. Should take about 4.5-5 hours to charge from completely empty.

6. Indeed, almost no perceivable change from high to medium-high. However there is indeed a small current change. Got a bit happy-go-lucky with the number of settings we wanted. Future lights are probably going to just have the Adaptive, High, Medium, and Low settings, no more in-between.

8. Your light should have come with a small GoPro adapter that can be swapped out with an M3 hex tool. Then have the options for the hundreds of different gopro tube mounts out there. The OEM GoPro stuff is quite good, though pricey.

11. This was a compromise. I agree with you, but then the light would be sitting almost 3-4" above the bar, looking quite goofy, and making mounting a little harder. So the focus on lightweightness was the priority.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Outbound said:


> 4. Are you using the trail or the road?


road


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

beanbag said:


> 8.Any plans for a head tube mount, or link to some kind of Go-pro adapter bracket thing?
> 
> 9. Light needs a little bit more of a "visor" from the case, so that when I stand and pedal on the uphills, it won't blind me when I look down.
> 
> ...


Luckily I havn't had any movement issues with the stock strap but I do prefer the Gopro mount. Here's a picture of my road version using a Gloworm QR bar mount. Curious what diameter bar your using the strap mount on?











> 7. I haven't had a chance yet to try my typical night ride, which is up and down a twisty road in the hills. The main issues here will be how good is the side illumination, and whether the beam sweeping back and forth as I slowly crawl up the hill will be annoying or not.


Looking forward to what you think after you ride your light in these conditions. I was disapointed with how low actual production models max. lux numbers were compared to the prototypes but in actual use have been very happy with the lights performance.
Mole


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Had a chance to do rural (no streetlights) road riding. For those of u in Nor-Cal, it was Old La Honda road, a popular hill-climb for roadies.

The first thing I noticed was that this light does not have that much forwards throw unless you are willing to raise it a few degrees and start to blind oncoming traffic. But at least the throw seems good now. I still think this light would benefit from throwing a bit more light out at the horizon. The good thing is that the "light carpet" patch is spread out enough that there is not a hot spot in front of you that blows out the rest of your night vision.

This first pic is along an open straight road. The top image is when I set the light just high enough that it will illuminate an oncoming car's license plate, but not the driver. The middle image is when I raise the light more, and you can now see that the road signs are glowing, and the white bike lane line is illuminated much further. Note that the "light carpet" patch isn't really any dimmer, but the throw is much better. Third image is the LED headlights from my car. It has sharp cutoff, very even illumination, and even the left side of the road is lit up. (click image for full size)









Next set of images is when I am actually in the hills with trees. BTW, I like how the light leaks a bit upwards so I can see what is overhead. Again, notice how much better the throw is when I aim the light higher, but also see how much higher that pole is illuminated, so worse for oncoming traffic.









There is still a mild annoyance due to the slight striping in the light patch when I sway the handlebars back and forth, but it is less annoying than seeing the side cutoff of the light sway around. However, on my way up, I got passed by another cyclist with some cheapo light with a dim, blue, round, narrow spot waving around back and forth. (He only passed me because his light was lighter) My light was totally better.

Another thing I noticed was that due to the shape of the beam, I don't have enough light in the upper left corner. So what this means is that I can't take left turns at full speed because I simply can't see. For some reason, right turns are less of a problem, maybe because I ride on the right side of the road? Now I think what might be a good idea is to maybe have an asymmetrical beam that throws a little more light to the upper left, sort of like how my car headlight does. Despite what I said in my last post where I wanted the beam pattern to be more "pointy" in the front, now I want it to illuminate the horizon further to the sides. And maybe make the light on the right side a little bit dimmer (while increasing the angle at the same time) because you don't need to illuminate close objects so much.









Additional comments:
Light color temperature and rendering is still very natural and good.
Maybe have a little lever that can toggle the light up and down a few degrees.
Now that I think about it, levels 4, 3, and even 2 are nearly the same brightness.
What's the max amps I can charge this at, if I want to charge it quickly? And what type of Lithium is it, so I know the final voltage to aim for?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

beanbag said:


> Had a chance to do rural (no streetlights) road riding. For those of u in Nor-Cal, it was Old La Honda road, a popular hill-climb for roadies.
> 
> The first thing I noticed was that this light does not have that much forwards throw unless you are willing to raise it a few degrees and start to blind oncoming traffic. But at least the throw seems good now. I still think this light would benefit from throwing a bit more light out at the horizon. The good thing is that the "light carpet" patch is spread out enough that there is not a hot spot in front of you that blows out the rest of your night vision.


Nice post beanbag!! I know what you mean about the difference in beam angle adjustment for effective cutoff vs. max throw. For riding on roads I've only used mine in town where speeds are relative low and adjusting for cutoff works fine for me in that application but I also prefer the road version (compared to the trail) for the trails I ride and always adjust up a few degrees for that. Using the Gloworm mount w/Gopro adapter (picture in my last post) makes on-the-fly adjusting a bit easier.

Questions about your beam shots:

1) Were they all taken in the highest/brightest mode?

2) Was the car beam in low or high? Would you consider your cars lights performance similar to most (noticed picture labeled Golf R which is the "high performance model" and I'm not sure if it's equipped with upgraded lights)?



> Now that I think about it, levels 4, 3, and even 2 are nearly the same brightness.


I always run the road version at the second lowest level. Current draw on this light is a bit high for its power output and low battery protection (so you don't run out of light suddenly) kicks in when the fuel gauge drops to 3 LED"s. Won't allow access to any higher settings after that, good to know if you do longer rides.
Mole


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## abvgdee (Jul 4, 2014)

beanbag said:


> Despite what I said...


I guess any mega-rocket-scientist would also be confused if asked to do what you tried to do - to express a general function of 2 variables (real angular distribution) as a function of only 1 (as you drew). I heard experts hate to be confused, so that's probably why they use "wall" shot images (what's the proper name BTW?).


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> 1) Were they all taken in the highest/brightest mode?
> 
> 2) Was the car beam in low or high? Would you consider your cars lights performance similar to most (noticed picture labeled Golf R which is the "high performance model" and I'm not sure if it's equipped with upgraded lights)?


1) I forgot. Probably #3 setting
2) regular low beam. It's the first year that VW had LED headlights on this car. I think they are pretty good, but I don't know how good they are relative to other cars.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Gotta remember with LED headlights on cars, they are often multiple segments, large reflectors, weigh 15 pounds, and roughly a combined 5000-6000 lumens for both left and right headlights. Better comparison would be to cover up one of the headlights. Most modern headlights are designed to work in pairs, where the left one illuminates more of the left side of the road, and the right vice versa.


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## xler8 (Oct 22, 2015)

Can anyone comment how these lights compare to Light & Motions’s Seca lineup?


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

This is a dumb question, but I’d like to charge these batteries in my vehicle. Can anyone recommend a car charger with dual outputs to charge 2 simultaneously? I could use a cigarette lighter pigtail and get 2 chargers I suppose...


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

You realize car chargers take quite a long time to charge these style battery packs? A charger to charge quickly doubled up on a power outlet may very possibly overload the circuit. If you have 2 outlets I would try to aim that way. Using each on separately.

My way of dealing with it is power inverter in my rear power outlet. Used it to charge whatever including my ryobi battery packs for my cordless tools when doing trail days.

I've used an RC charger in the past too but for some odd reason the cheap inverter is more efficient than the not so cheap charger.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## yurc (Aug 10, 2018)

*Ordering pair of focal series (trail/road) without battery*



Outbound said:


> I've been working on as I prepare for this kickstarter campaign.


I was missed the party. I'm having interest in night riding in last 3 month, so I wasn't have many experienced so far.

Regarding with your lights, it's possible to order a set both road and trail version without battery pack send to Indonesia? My country is always restricted with battery only packages (except device with self-containing battery), and all my order including with battery pack is always returned to seller and my order was cancelled. In the end I'm must build my own pack using Chinese battery box. That's why most my bike light is self-contained dual emitters unit because of these limitation.

I'm living in Eastern Asian region which is quite difficult to get trusted west branded light because no reseller here, ordering directly cost too much shipping and heavy tax especially packages with up to $50 USD value.

Due all those inconvenience, I have no choice using Chinese brands but it quite a mix of bag. But at least some of reputable Chinese lights are quite good.

Considered I'm still noob in this field, here some light history I've been used to explain why I'm need at least perfect light solution to suit in my taste.

1) My first light was Ravemen PR1200 ($100 USD). It was good and working well so far. But in struggle penetrating heavy rain / heavy fog. Honestly I'm haven't spend light more than $100 each unit (Ravemen PR1200 is the most expensive in my collection) but probably I want adding secondary PR1200 in future to run dual/pair PR1200 setup. I'm like the color temprature which is less glare on trail even at maximum brightness. My only complaint is no fully operation via remote, because button on remote only hardwired to changing brightness button (cannot switch mountain/road mode on the fly)

2) Got a pair faked Solarstorm X3 with triple XML T6 (total was $18 only!) and...hell crap, using awhile for at least temporary complement with existing Ravemen PR1200. Color temperature isn't match but I have no choice.

3) Got a pair of true Solarstorm X2 with CREE XM-L2 emitters (was $26 at that time ordering). Super bright, but just hotspot. Also flickering PWM, interference with my analog RF wireless cateye computer. Well, at least it can penetrate fog stronger than Ravemen PR1200.

4) Order a pair Nitenumen X8 for $45 USD each, $90 in total. I have read in in budget light forum features and looks great so I'm ordered. Unfortunately, it seems not as good I'm expected. Claimed 1800 lumens but Solarstorm X2 / Ravemen PR1200 still brighter than that. The good only in good huge LG battery, so it's shine longer than my Ravemen PR1200 in highest settings. Its looks this light are quite underpowered since it have XM-L2 it should at least perform like non self-contained siblings Solarstorm X2. Not causing interfere with my analog RF wireless bike computer.

5) KDLitker BL-70S for $42, this time just buy one, not pair because of their size (and already equipped with high power XHP 70.2). One of my favorite because it provides me quite warm temperature, I'm choose 4000K color and illuminate trail like a sun, because it more natural for my eyes seeing periphery with sunset / sunrise like color. The worst is switching mode too fast activate curse blinding strobe&#8230;I'm wonder why strobe mode should be activate by double click&#8230;uggh. This one is quite powerful to penetrating thick fog.

6) Purchase pair of Gachiron V9D-1600, ($55 each, $110 in total. Everything goods, beam pattern have nice flood but still have enough throw, I can say this is jack of all trade of beam pattern. UI is behave similarly like Ravemen PR1200, smooth/stepless mode changing, fully wired remote operation (where Ravemen PR1200 doesn't), can using wired remote in rain without reduce water ingress risk, and hidden blinding eyes strobe mode. Brightness is equal with Ravemen PR1200 and all mode is usable (no useless eco mode). So I'm quite pleased with beam performance. But it have quite fatal shortcomings in my opinion, since it consist of two piece body construction, metal body of this lamp is very small, the rest just plain plastic, make it prone to overheat. I've test at speed which most lamp should cool (about 50-56km/h by drafting big trucks for about 2 km), It still quite hot!! Other lamp I have usually still cool at maximum brightness at least when I'm pushed to 40km/h.

As stated above, there's just a bunch light I have and tested so far. No one is perfect. Still finding suitable setup for my taste, and that's why I'm found your focal series and interest to get one. I'm also fan of pair setup, it's provides me longer time on dark trail because low/medium output from double separate beam are brighter than low/medium with single headlight.

TLDR, So this is my question,

1) Is possible to purchase headlight unit only? (without battery/charger) Because I don't find option to choose headlight only in your store.

2) Its have similar Magicshine / Solarstorm like battery plug setup? From I'm read from this thread I'm assume it should have common DC plug found in many common battery packs (just to make sure) because of my country lithium battery restriction law.

3 I'm know this is shameful, but it possible to declare value lower than $50 when ship put? As you know, all my bike are came from China and they always gave me low price declaration for all these lamp, so they can delivered to me without being stuck on custom.

Sorry for spamming to much for my first post, has been lurker since 2012 but tempted with your focal series so I create account to get in touch. (pardon for grammar error because English is not my native)

Regards


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

RAKC Ind said:


> You realize car chargers take quite a long time to charge these style battery packs? A charger to charge quickly doubled up on a power outlet may very possibly overload the circuit. If you have 2 outlets I would try to aim that way. Using each on separately.
> 
> My way of dealing with it is power inverter in my rear power outlet. Used it to charge whatever including my ryobi battery packs for my cordless tools when doing trail days.
> 
> ...


I have a car outlet in the back that's always on. It supports a pretty gnarly USB-C charger that I can power battery banks up pretty fast.
The included AC adapters are pretty slow, I'd rather skip an inverter as my AC outlet isn't in the cargo area where I want to store my lights. I was looking on amazon and just didn't see many car chargers with this plug unless I missed something. I'm at work for 10-12 hrs so the battery packs would have tons of time to charge.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

yurc said:


> .........


PM'ed you!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Regarding the car charging, I know some newer cars are coming with some really high amperage charging ports. Heck it's even a rated item on car & driver in depth reviews (decent is 1A, great is 2A). I've been surprised how quick my phone charges using a USB port in my truck, but it's also a 2A one I believe.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

I’m just going to run an inverter and 2x2A AC chargers as the only cigarette car chargers are all 1A. Should be great!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Third party reviewers starting to get some lights for testinggggg.

OUTBOUND LIGHTING FOCAL SERIES ROAD LIGHT



> The unit performed flawlessly. It is simple to use and maintain. If you are training with a GPS head unit, you will probably need to put your head unit in your jersey pocket&#8230;that's really the only negative to this unit. It is priced below its competitors' comparable units and is a great value. It's also lightweight at 100g (3.53 oz.) headlight or 416g (14.67 oz.) for the complete system. This latest entry into the headlight arena deserves a full 5/5 stars from us!


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Been running the downhill package on quick hour rides before work in the morning for the last week or so. Everything is working out pretty good, overheated 1 light once though. I turned it off about 2 minutes after stopping and it took a minute before it cooled down enough to turn back on. Not that big of a deal, I figured it was in a thermal protection mode although I couldn’t see the lights as it was helmet mounted. I continue to be impressed by the road/trail combo.
Honestly, the trail just doesn’t light up the trail as much as I’d like by itself. It gives me a nice fill but the amount of light on the trail is too dim for me to use alone. But, toss the road on the helmet and it’s game over! Light for days with a nice even fill directly in front of you.
I’m relatively inexperienced at night riding, and I worry about judging heights of trail features (rocks/roots/holes). I do get shadows on the features with this setup and that’s a good indicator I can use to tell me if there’s any “real height” behind something.
Overall I love it. The performance and quality of all the components for the cost is great.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

I haven’t had a chance to use my trail lamp yet. I’m a little concerned about the amount of throw for my conditions, which are Montana mid-elevation Ponderosa forests and sage meadows - not dense forest. But I usually do only 2-3 night rides a year with my trail bike. Most of my night riding is over snow on the fatbike, with lower speeds and higher albedo landscape.


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## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

farfromovin said:


> Been running the downhill package on quick hour rides before work in the morning for the last week or so. Everything is working out pretty good, overheated 1 light once though. I turned it off about 2 minutes after stopping and it took a minute before it cooled down enough to turn back on. Not that big of a deal, I figured it was in a thermal protection mode although I couldn't see the lights as it was helmet mounted. I continue to be impressed by the road/trail combo.
> Honestly, the trail just doesn't light up the trail as much as I'd like by itself. It gives me a nice fill but the amount of light on the trail is too dim for me to use alone. But, toss the road on the helmet and it's game over! Light for days with a nice even fill directly in front of you.
> I'm relatively inexperienced at night riding, and I worry about judging heights of trail features (rocks/roots/holes). I do get shadows on the features with this setup and that's a good indicator I can use to tell me if there's any "real height" behind something.
> Overall I love it. The performance and quality of all the components for the cost is great.


Try mounting the Road on the bar but aimed high (along with the Trail). The two complement each other extremely well. I rarely using my helmet light anymore, except on faster downhills.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

stu06 said:


> Try mounting the Road on the bar but aimed high (along with the Trail). The two complement each other extremely well. I rarely using my helmet light anymore, except on faster downhills.


I'm usually climbing rocky singletrack next to a wall and the road makes "hot spots" on the wall when I bar mount the road. The trail/road bar/helmet combo works great for me. I think it would work great for everyone who is willing to shell out the $$.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Did u send out the updated straps yet?


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Yurc - Companies get fined out of existence and people go to jail for undervaluing goods for export. I don't like paying Duty and VAT anymore than anyone else, but I'm not going to ask someone else to put their butt on the line so I can save a few bucks, and I'm certainly not going to ask that in an open public forum.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Hey guys, not much to report here except I am starting to gear up for our second production run. Making some minor improvements to help speed up the assembly time, nothing much with the core functions of the product.

Some of you may know, I quit my comfortable full time job as an optical design engineer about 3 weeks ago to focus 100% on Outbound Lighting. So far been a great move. Being able to focus on the business is showing. I spent about a week revamping the website for better mobile performance and to clean things up on the desktop side, be sure to check it out!

www.outboundlighting.com

Other "big" news is that I have started development on a single-cell internal battery light to compete with the Ion's, Luminas, and a few others. This is going to be another 6-8 months until production ready, so wouldn't get too excited just yet.  Aiming for extreme lightweightness, a properly shaped beam pattern with the integrated light carpet. Won't be nearly as wide as the trail version, but somewhere in between the road and Trail.

My intent is for it to be a great single light for relaxed trail riding but a perfect helmet light compliment to the trail version. Won't be as powerful or long lasting as the road version on the helmet.

Will be looking to integrate some cool materials and an extremely high build quality. Whether this will end up on Kickstarter again or not is yet to be seen. Will have to weigh the benefits/cons.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Sadly I have not used my lights yet [hangs head in shame]. However, did I see in one of your posts here that you were sending out new straps because there was a problem with the original ones? I never got any package or email about this. Can you update me and refresh my memory about any strap problems please?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Wish I Were Riding said:


> Sadly I have not used my lights yet [hangs head in shame]. However, did I see in one of your posts here that you were sending out new straps because there was a problem with the original ones? I never got any package or email about this. Can you update me and refresh my memory about any strap problems please?


You aren't wrong. I've admittedly been terrible about getting these straps out. My shipping software was throwing a fit when trying to send out warranty stuff. It is my top priority on getting all that squared away today and shipped out.


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## Wish I Were Riding (Jan 30, 2004)

Okay, thanks for the update.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Replacement straps came in the mail today. Thanks Outbound!
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> Replacement straps came in the mail today. Thanks Outbound!
> Mole


I appreciate you guys keeping on me about it! Like I mentioned, I was being terrible about taking the 6 or so hours it took to pack, label and get them out. Been insanely busy.


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## Rolekl (Dec 1, 2017)

Outbound said:


> Other "big" news is that I have started development on a single-cell internal battery light to compete with the Ion's, Luminas, and a few others. This is going to be another 6-8 months until production ready, so wouldn't get too excited just yet.  Aiming for extreme lightweightness, a properly shaped beam pattern with the integrated light carpet. Won't be nearly as wide as the trail version, but somewhere in between the road and Trail.
> 
> My intent is for it to be a great single light for relaxed trail riding but a perfect helmet light compliment to the trail version. Won't be as powerful or long lasting as the road version on the helmet.
> 
> Will be looking to integrate some cool materials and an extremely high build quality. Whether this will end up on Kickstarter again or not is yet to be seen. Will have to weigh the benefits/cons.


Ahh I'm just in the market for a new helmet light  My wish would be something like the Exposure Joystick, but with removable battery so you can change it out on the trail. One and a half hours runtime just doesn't cut it, but a one minute pitstop to change battery would be a bearable price to pay for light weight, no wires and decent output. Being a helmet light I would look for more throw and less width in the light. A simple remote control to go with that and a fool proof way to fix it to most helmets and you have a winner. In my book at least ;-)

Thinking about it, I kind of like how the Lumonite Compass can be mounted because it allows a low profile and less risk to get stuck in branches etc.

LUMONITE® Compass, 1238 lm 999kr - I lager - VALOSTORE.SE


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Great suggestions! I've been looking into how to design a removable battery pack since that'd be on my wish list as well. Challenges come with cost, complexity of the tooling and charging. However it would open up some interesting configurations such as the running light like you linked.

This is your chance guys to put together a wish list! Can't promise I'll be able to integrate everything due to either cost constraints or simply the laws of physics (sorry no 3000 lumen, 4 hour runtime on a single battery  ).

I am aiming to potentially have a high low if I can get a proper cutoff beam pattern integrated nicely. I don't want to do these fake ones that end up being blobs. Nor extremely inefficient versions that waste a lot of lumens through an aspherical lens or shields. No promises though!


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## Rolekl (Dec 1, 2017)

Outbound said:


> Great suggestions! I've been looking into how to design a removable battery pack since that'd be on my wish list as well.


Cool! It doesn't have to be a proper "pack", just being able to swap 18650 batteries would be good enough.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Rolekl said:


> Cool! It doesn't have to be a proper "pack", just being able to swap 18650 batteries would be good enough.


Yea would be nice. I've always had in my mind to have something of GoPro quality, where the user doesn't even have to see an 18650. I know the guys on here who like to tweak endlessly and add more and more batteries might not be a fan, but I am thinking more broadly of the consumer at a bike shop that likes the idea of a swappable battery, but a bare 18650 in their backpack concerns them.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Outbound said:


> Yea would be nice. I've always had in my mind to have something of GoPro quality, where the user doesn't even have to see an 18650. I know the guys on here who like to tweak endlessly and add more and more batteries might not be a fan, but I am thinking more broadly of the consumer at a bike shop that likes the idea of a swappable battery, but a bare 18650 in their backpack concerns them.


Some Serfas models do this and it looks pretty nice for a consumer level user. The Serfas design is pretty recognizable as an 18650. It has a nice over-molded body that threads into the light body and seals with an o-ring. Connections are nicely recessed so carrying one in a pocket or pack would present little opportunity for a short to occur.

Of course one is forced to buy somewhat costly Serfas batteries for spares or replacements. Great for Serfas and most users, not so good for a few users.


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Sweet, got replacement straps in the mail. They look identical but the new ones are much more stretchy. Gonna put it to use in the morning!


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

Rolekl said:


> A simple remote control to go with that and a fool proof way to fix it to most helmets and you have a winner.


Remote control is always a nice feature for headlights.



Outbound said:


> This is your chance guys to put together a wish list!
> I am aiming to potentially have a high low if I can get a proper cutoff beam pattern integrated nicely. I don't want to do these fake ones that end up being blobs.


Great!


If integrated USB port for charging, then USB-C to be usable without adapters even in five years 
illuminated remote control with two buttons (hi/low beam & hi/low brightness) 
fading between changing the brightness, like dimming it up or down (same for powering it on/off) 
cateye compatible mount 
usable upside-down (like the B&M IQ-X) 
rubber gasket to protect against damage if it hits the ground (could be removable/optional) 
small LC display to see remaining battery capacity in % and runtime at current mode 
optional sealing mount to use USB-cable for recharging/powering during the ride while beeing rainproof/water resistant 

Some of my ideas have been already posted in this thread:
forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/outbound-lighting-focal-series-discussion-1055278.html#post13423691
forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/outbound-lighting-focal-series-discussion-1055278-2.html#post13429652
forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/outbound-lighting-focal-series-discussion-1055278-2.html#post13430631



Outbound said:


> the consumer at a bike shop that likes the idea of a swappable battery, but a bare 18650 in their backpack concerns them.


It doesn't have to be bare, there are good boxes for transportation. 
XTAR New Battery Case


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Is above-the-handlebar, offset to one side of the stem, really the best place to mount a light? Can't it be integrated any better, matching the profile of existing components better? Perhaps hug the bar, making use of space behind and in front of the bar, like that clug bike storage thing? Or perhaps span the front of the stem plate and be designed to take a frontal hit? Certain riser bars sweep up and back very soon, making the aim kind of off, making me think of getting an extension bar for mounting stuff.

At the same time, spread out the mass over a helmet? I recall a helmet light that followed the width-wise curve of a helmet, sort of hugging the top. Don't want a really high CoG that is prone to tipping and catching low branches.

Asking, since I broke 3 lights this year through crashes. Broke a few "out-front" GPS mounts too, shearing off tabs off Garmins through lawn darting rock rolls (K-Edge out-front Garmin mount w/o plastic insert), or just leaning a bike by the handlebar and later hearing it fall, and seeing a broken Barfly out-front. Now running mounts that protect things behind and below the bar. I guess I'm one of the types that doesn't care about how much things weigh on scales as much as how the weight is carried.

I suppose Knog has been trying to answer this question, but I don't see any lights from 'em that put out 1200+ lumens in a pattern that I need for hours at a time.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

ninjichor said:


> Is above-the-handlebar, offset to one side of the stem, really the best place to mount a light? Can't it be integrated any better, matching the profile of existing components better? Perhaps hug the bar, making use of space behind and in front of the bar, like that clug bike storage thing? Or perhaps span the front of the stem plate and be designed to take a frontal hit? Certain riser bars sweep up and back very soon, making the aim kind of off, making me think of getting an extension bar for mounting stuff.
> 
> At the same time, spread out the mass over a helmet? I recall a helmet light that followed the width-wise curve of a helmet, sort of hugging the top. Don't want a really high CoG that is prone to tipping and catching low branches.
> 
> ...


Reading your post I kept thinking about Gloworm's excellent mounts. Pictures using the physically large Outbound lighthead show it can be mounted slightly below the stem. Using Gloworms lightheads (side mounted) you can run the mount straight down from the bars totally protecting the light. These mounts will work with any light with a Gopro style interface.
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

ninjichor said:


> Is above-the-handlebar, offset to one side of the stem, really the best place to mount a light?


Nope.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

My personal fave right now is the Range Stem with the gopro mount installed. I have it on my Stache as a permanent location for the trail light:

https://www.pnwcomponents.com/products/the-range-stem-with-gopro-or-garmin-mount


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

FYI our site has been broken all day. Will update when it's back online.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Outbound said:


> My personal fave right now is the Range Stem with the gopro mount installed. I have it on my Stache as a permanent location for the trail light:
> 
> https://www.pnwcomponents.com/products/the-range-stem-with-gopro-or-garmin-mount


Saw that on your IG and I'm planning to put one on my fatbike, since it sees most of my night riding.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

ya someone took Vancs idea off here and ran with it lol.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## jeof1000 (Apr 19, 2013)

I would be nice to a remote to control the intensity of the light.


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

I ordered the downhill package and I got to give the road version a try this evening. I am in no way a light nerd but I was generally impressed. As others have noted, the beam is adequate. If I was to nitpick I would want the hot spot to be up a little higher. Basically right at the cutoff to draw my focus away from the bike a bit. As was mentioned this is a pretty nitpicky request. My other observation is that cornering to the left is tough. It is an inherent limitation in any light with a cutoff, I would assume. As the bike leans over the cutoff is leaned into the ground well short of where you actually need to see. So the faster you are going i.e. the more the bike is leaned over the less light you have ahead of the turn.

The build quality of this thing is outstanding. I went ahead and bought a handlebar clamp and go pro mount from gloworm (action-led). It's a great mounting solution and lets me keep the go pro mount on the road light for helmet use on the MTB. I am looking forward to trying that combo but I think it will be a few weeks yet.


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## jeof1000 (Apr 19, 2013)

Have you ever wonder having a TV without a remote? I'm just saying most bike equipment now have remote. Seat post and shocks. Why not put remote on headlight for safety reason and convinient... i'm just saying....


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

So as someone who night rides a lot, I can't possibly imagine why a remote is so necessary. Its not like you are 30ft away from the button. Like literally its 10" away from your grips...and I cant ever think of a reason why I would need to turn my light off or change the brightness so fast that I cant reach 10" to touch the button...someone enlighten me.


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

ZenkiS14 said:


> So as someone who night rides a lot, I can't possibly imagine why a remote is so necessary. Its not like you are 30ft away from the button. Like literally its 10" away from your grips...and I cant ever think of a reason why I would need to turn my light off or change the brightness so fast that I cant reach 10" to touch the button...someone enlighten me.


I tend to agree. I see a remote as a "nice to have" feature...maybe. I've never ridden with a remote for lights so I don't know. I could see it potentially being useful for a helmet light or for simultaneous control of a bar/helmet combination.

Personally, I don't want a lot of clutter on the bars from more levers or switches. The other consideration would be battery life. I don't want to waste any available power from the battery on a wireless radio. I'd rather keep that power for making light.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

sptimmy43 said:


> I tend to agree. I see a remote as a "nice to have" feature...maybe. I've never ridden with a remote for lights so I don't know. I could see it potentially being useful for a helmet light or for simultaneous control of a bar/helmet combination.
> 
> Personally, I don't want a lot of clutter on the bars from more levers or switches. The other consideration would be battery life. I don't want to waste any available power from the battery on a wireless radio. I'd rather keep that power for making light.


Agreed. I usually have my lights low for climbing, high for descending, and off for breaks and mothering up. I never adjust the brightness while riding. I also don't leave my lights on the bike all the time, so that's just more to fuss with when putting them on.

A TV is across the room. My lights are well within reach.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I rather take the compromise of simplicity and robustness over various luxuries added on. Feature creep is to blame for a lot of half baked junk on the market. That and cost cutting...

Kind of unrealistic to go look at the competition, say Supernova ebike lights, Light and Motion, Gloworm, Knog, etc., and ask for someone else to take the best of their ideas and improve upon it somehow. Or take standards out-of-industry, like XT60 or XT90 connectors, and try and get people to adopt them at cost of compatibility with current standards. Or just expect too much for the price, like criticizing stock chargers to be junk, compared to hobby chargers.

Breaking the habit of spec-sheet shopping, and perhaps comparing the product to something I can actually make something myself (e.g. my own battery pack), does wonders to keep my perspective down to Earth.

BTW, what happened to the How-It's-Made page? Kind of wanted to look up how solder joints were avoided again.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

ZenkiS14 said:


> So as someone who night rides a lot, I can't possibly imagine why a remote is so necessary. Its not like you are 30ft away from the button. Like literally its 10" away from your grips...and I cant ever think of a reason why I would need to turn my light off or change the brightness so fast that I cant reach 10" to touch the button...someone enlighten me.


Well I've definitely been in situations where I was bombing down technical sections where I wish I could let go of the bars to change the light level, but didn't dare because it was too much risk. Perhaps it was poor planning on my part; perhaps it was due to unfamiliarity with the trail, either way it still happens.

-Garry


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

evasive said:


> Agreed. I usually have my lights low for climbing, high for descending, and off for breaks and mothering up. I never adjust the brightness while riding. I also don't leave my lights on the bike all the time, so that's just more to fuss with when putting them on.
> 
> A TV is across the room. My lights are well within reach.


This.

I also appreciate simplicity, and would rather use all of the available power and battery for functioning the light, rather than the remote, and not have one more thing to possibly break.

I'm also a set it and forget it rider. I just ride with my OL light in adaptive mode, get nearly 4 hours of light out of it, and never mess with it lol


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Not saying there will never be an optional remote on future products, but for the first round of products I focused on what was key to a good light, the actual light part. 

As others mentioned, feature creep, scope increase, and increased costs were all reasons I opted to forgo a remote. In it's place I specifically designed the light to have a massive single button right on top that is easy to reach and quick to react with a light touch. Tried out about 10 different switches for the PCB until deciding on one that felt justttt right.

Maybe in the future will have the remote, bluetooth app, ANT+ compatibility, etc. But I am just one guy right now, so I have to pick my battles. The key differentiator with the Outbound products is the very long battery life thanks to the optimized beam patterns, not to mention the build quality, the actual beam pattern, and the customer service. 

As for that How-It's-Made-Page, once the website is working 100% again it'll be added back! A couple other new pages are in the works as well such as a bit better comparison page. If you visit the site right now you'll notice a weird double-header thing going on with the product pages. Waiting for the website guru guys to fix that... I've tried all I can.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

garrybunk said:


> Well I've definitely been in situations where I was bombing down technical sections where I wish I could let go of the bars to change the light level, but didn't dare because it was too much risk. Perhaps it was poor planning on my part; perhaps it was due to unfamiliarity with the trail, either way it still happens.
> 
> -Garry


I've had this happen too.

I'm in the camp of liking a wired remote, but I would not have one if it eliminated more desirable features or could cause a reliability issue. I build them into my bar and helmet lights because I can and there is really no penalty. A wired remote uses no additional power so runtime is not affected. In reality, wireless remote power consumption can be made so low that a runtime reduction would barely be able to be noticed.

Some of the preference for switching output while riding may come from the lights I used when starting night riding. With my old halogen setups from the late 90s you had high and low. A crazy heavy battery that would run just a hair over an hour on high made you pretty conscientious about clicking to low whenever the trail allowed and only using high when it was really needed.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Yea, the long battery life just makes me keep it on high/adaptive all the time. Every time I stop for an extended time (long traffic light, or waiting for ride buddies), I turn it off; it's more to manage its heat, than to manage battery life. Simple to put a foot down and use 1 hand for each light to hold the button, and repeat before setting off, perhaps clicking again to set the brightness.

I wonder about lights automatically doing this, but wouldn't want it to turn off completely unless it detected absolutely no movement for 10 minutes. Maybe switch to low after 5 minutes of low movement.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Vancbiker said:


> I've had this happen too.
> 
> I'm in the camp of liking a wired remote, but I would not have one if it eliminated more desirable features or could cause a reliability issue.


That pretty much sums up how I feel about remotes. I have 11 different lightheads with either wired or wireless remotes. Remote failures and/or remote related mode switching inconsistencies are by far the most common complaint/problem I've had with all my lights. Done correctly the remote option can be a very nice but not essential feature, done incorrectly (no mode switch on lighthead, poor remote body bar interface/mounting design, weak signal, toooo large, wired remote that plugs into usb port) remotes can be a giant PITA.
Mole


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm just curious where a remote mounts on the bars that makes it so much more convenient? Post pics for science


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

ZenkiS14 said:


> I'm just curious where a remote mounts on the bars that makes it so much more convenient? Post pics for science


Here is the typical location for the bar light. Right at the RH grip,








This is how I've ended up doing it for the helmet. Requires removing hand from bars which is not ideal, but having the fairly large switch right over the temple is much easier/quicker to actuate than a switch on the top of the light. You don't have to move your hand quite as far.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

James in the UK got the Downhill package and has been getting some incredible pictures recently!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Sometimes just have to jump on the bandwagon. 

I'd be lying though if I didn't say I love this meme.


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## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

Matt,

With your existing light head design, what's the maximum power output that could be sustained without active cooling and without the thermal protection kicking in?

I'm curious because I see that the new Lupine Alpha has a 70-watt maximum output. I suspect full power wouldn't be sustainable for long.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

stu06 said:


> Matt,
> 
> With your existing light head design, what's the maximum power output that could be sustained without active cooling and without the thermal protection kicking in?
> 
> I'm curious because I see that the new Lupine Alpha has a 70-watt maximum output. I suspect full power wouldn't be sustainable for long.


Always a loaded question.

When at biking speed (average about 10-15mph) then 20-30W (roughly) is sustainable. Obviously stopping or slowing down will reduce that. Also the design of the lighthead plays a big part in it. That's why I HAD to do die-cast design, no way to get the properly sized fins required on a CNC machine or through an extrusion like most cheap lights are done.

Then of course the ambient temperature plays another big part.

For myself, if I started pushing 25-30W, that's when I would be looking into active cooling so that it's still outputting properly at slower speeds or higher ambient temps. I notice that the Alpha doesn't have any air scoops or anything to force cooling air back behind the lamp where the majority of the heat is being generated. So I have a feeling it'll be like any other "omgultrahighpower" lamp, where it's impressive for about 30 seconds until it overheats and pulls power down. So people will be paying out the butt for 70W of power, but only be able to effectively use 30W or so of it, at most.

Thats why to me.... 30-35W is sort of the "maximum" that a bike light will ever need to be. That's already like having two high power modern day car LED headlights on your bike at that point. That's roughly 3000-3500 lumens of real usable light that's doable with the right cooling and thermal load spreading. Just absolutely would need things in a shell that would avoid having the user touch the case if wanted to push it.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

stu06 said:


> Matt,
> 
> With your existing light head design, what's the maximum power output that could be sustained without active cooling and without the thermal protection kicking in?
> 
> I'm curious because I see that the new Lupine Alpha has a 70-watt maximum output. I suspect full power wouldn't be sustainable for long.


ever seen an output graph for lupine? looks the the ocean, all waves because unless in cool temps and at decent speeds they cant maintain near max output because they are far too small for their max output. See as the size of automotive lights that produce the same lumens are literally 3x the size so they arent reliant on thermal protection and all that other stuff, many companies are going way too far beyond limits just to give pretty numbers. At least Lupine is high quality design and product but laws of physics catch even the best eventually. As well as dont get hung up on wattage (or lumens). Its more about how the light output is used versus how much there is.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

Outbound said:


> Always a loaded question.
> 
> When at biking speed (average about 10-15mph) then 20-30W (roughly) is sustainable. Obviously stopping or slowing down will reduce that. Also the design of the lighthead plays a big part in it. That's why I HAD to do die-cast design, no way to get the properly sized fins required on a CNC machine or through an extrusion like most cheap lights are done.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply. That's why I'm running your Road/Trail combo in place of my Betty. My Betty can sustain only 16W at climbing speeds; at the next higher power level--22W--it'll step-down after about 15 minutes. Very irksome, especially since I paid "out the butt." Ouch!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

stu06 said:


> Thanks for your reply. That's why I'm running your Road/Trail combo in place of my Betty. My Betty can sustain only 16W at climbing speeds; at the next higher power level--22W--it'll step-down after about 15 minutes. Very irksome, especially since I paid "out the butt." Ouch!


Sounds pretty much exactly what I've noticed in my own testing, simulation, and real world results not only with automotive but also with bike lights.

You can actually run LED heatsinks pretty hot if designed properly. OEM's have been getting more agressive with the heatsink size inside headlights. Used to be a lot of the headlights had big heatsinks and big fans pushing a lot of air (Mini Cooper, Mercedes Benz) to keep things cool. However I think they are starting to get a little more comfortable, and the LED tech is progressing that can have stable output at higher junction temperatures. Which means they can get rid of the fans (most unreliable part in a headlight assembly) and can start downsizing the heat sinks which reduces weight and part cost.

The heat sink on the newest Jeep LED headlights on the wrangler and the cherokee is actually fairly small given the power they are putting out. Some trick stuff going on inside of it that I won't disclose since I might be applying it to future products. 

But do know that in LED tech on the automotive side, the biggest strides aren't in lumen output, no one cares about that anymore, we can get all the lumens we need. The biggest strides are in the junction temperature stability, emitter size reduction (getting down to sub 0.5mm^2), heat sink design, and more importantly the optical design. The rise of electric cars has put a huge focus on power reduction across all portions of the car to eek out more electric range. Headlights are one of the biggest power suckers so a LOT of work is being put into making more efficient headlights optically.

The traditional projector type optics with a cutoff shade is only 40-45% efficient, which means the HID bulb that outputs nearly 2500 lumens, is only actually putting down 1000 lumens on the road. So two headlights are putting down 2000 lumens for a high end car. Even the most advanced LED projector optics are now only about 50-55% efficient, mostly because of losses through bounces, materials, and more.

That's why there is a big push on reflectors and TIR style of optics. Not just a typical bowl spot TIR though, very complex surfaces to shape and mold the light exactly what it needs to be. Check out this cool little paper about the materials of lighting, and can see some of the interesting optics, particularly on the F-150.

http://read.nxtbook.com/wiley/plastics_engineering/september_2018/enlightening_possibilities_pl.html


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## bendoe5010 (Sep 20, 2017)

Hi Matt,

I just ordered the trail edition this morning.

Will it come with the updated strap?

Thanks


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

bendoe5010 said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> I just ordered the trail edition this morning.
> 
> ...


Yep! All lights since late July have the updated straps.

Thanks for the order!


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Speaking of automotive tech, does the Outbound light have any long term issue with UV exposure? 

The anti-UV coating on autos wears out, which I hope could be fixed more permanently perhaps through material choice, but I suspect they care more about looks, than function and ownership experience. Something well engineered should be simple to use, working "invisibly" without complaint. 

IMO, if people were hesitant to bad mouth the bad decisions of others, I'd imagine that they're in a glass house and are fearful of the retaliation. When you're comparing a $200 light to a $20 light, I can't give you much respect. Compare to the ones marketed to be the latest and greatest, and now you're talking. Can create pride in ownership, which results in better word-of-mouth, if you show how your product is valuable. The talk about temp management evolving to be lighter and smaller is a good start. Respect for that, for showing how much more intelligently you are ahead when compared to others, in a way that makes others feel empowered for choosing you.

Waiting for a helmet light which is lower profile and has longer throw, to be specifically used with the original on the bars. Hopefully one that's more optimized for high speed riding in open areas (e.g. deserts). Also looking forward to a rear light that makes overtakers give you more space--perhaps making beam pattern that creates a rectangular box of red light which sort of outlines a "no entry" zone.

You told me that these was these last light I'd buy, but I'm not yet convinced. Still riding conservatively, compared to how I ride during the day. I imagine the case would be different under a tree canopy where natural sun light is more limited, and these light things up more than during the day.


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## Precision Man (Apr 9, 2015)

I got a lot of water in my light today on a very rainy ride, any thoughts on how to best get rid of it? I know it has a vent hole somewhere but I don't think running it till it dries out is practical and I'm sure there will be some spotty residue left on the back of the lens if I do that. Ideas?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Precision Man said:


> I got a lot of water in my light today on a very rainy ride, any thoughts on how to best get rid of it? I know it has a vent hole somewhere but I don't think running it till it dries out is practical and I'm sure there will be some spotty residue left on the back of the lens if I do that. Ideas?


PM'ed you. But is it actual standing water or just condensation? Condensation is to be expected since there is a drastic humidity difference combined with the higher heat inside. The breather vent will help balance that out after some time, shouldn't leave any residue.

If actual water inside, then let's talk and I'll get that taken care of, and figure out how that happened, shouldn't be happening on a rainy ride. Now if you went diving... maybe.


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## Precision Man (Apr 9, 2015)

You are fast, I PM'd you back, thanks!

You're awesome, thanks for the return label. Now if only my power meter crank arm Kickstarter experience had been as positive when it had its issue...


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

ninjichor said:


> Speaking of automotive tech, does the Outbound light have any long term issue with UV exposure?
> 
> The anti-UV coating on autos wears out, which I hope could be fixed more permanently perhaps through material choice, but I suspect they care more about looks, than function and ownership experience. Something well engineered should be simple to use, working "invisibly" without complaint.


That's the beauty of the silicone lens material. It's extremely UV resistant and doesn't need an external coating: https://www.momentive.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=4294968078

Although I would argue that even a normal PMMA lens for a bike light won't be seeing the degradation that an automotive headlight would. There are coatings applied as you mentioned but even if I did a plastic lens in the future I probably wouldn't bother with it. A bike light typically isn't left on the bike outside for days or years on end.



> IMO, if people were hesitant to bad mouth the bad decisions of others, I'd imagine that they're in a glass house and are fearful of the retaliation. When you're comparing a $200 light to a $20 light, I can't give you much respect. Compare to the ones marketed to be the latest and greatest, and now you're talking. Can create pride in ownership, which results in better word-of-mouth, if you show how your product is valuable. The talk about temp management evolving to be lighter and smaller is a good start. Respect for that, for showing how much more intelligently you are ahead when compared to others, in a way that makes others feel empowered for choosing you.


I have made comparisons before to the more expensive lights (



). Not against doing comparisons at all. Just that the first thing most people do is try to compare to their cheap $20 light and how "I could buy 10 of these for the same price".

One thing I hope to start doing is posting the teardowns of lots of different types of lights, from cheap to expensive along with comparisons in performance. I have taken apart a LOT of them to figure out some manufacturing tricks, benchmark, cost analysis, etc. Some really interesting things, and some appalling things in the most expensive of lights.



> Waiting for a helmet light which is lower profile and has longer throw, to be specifically used with the original on the bars. Hopefully one that's more optimized for high speed riding in open areas (e.g. deserts). Also looking forward to a rear light that makes overtakers give you more space--perhaps making beam pattern that creates a rectangular box of red light which sort of outlines a "no entry" zone.


A self contained light is next up, and I hope to do a taillight as well. Just had to spend all the profit built up on the next re-order over the last few weeks so I'm back to nil.  I have designs getting worked on in my spare time and once I speed up production with this next reorder I'll be able to focus some more effort on that, and start the prototyping/development phase.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Post this on the social media channels, but will update here.

TLDR; going to be out of stock for a few weeks, so if you are thinking of buying, now is the time to do it. As of 10/3 I have enough PCB's for 30 lights.



> Hey guys! Little update. Turns out sales growth has massively outpaced my planning! Not getting another batch of PCB boards in until October 30th at the latest. When the re-order was placed a while back I was hoping to be selling 2-3 lights a day, recently it's been almost double that!
> 
> As a result I am extremely limited on the number of lights I'll be able to ship immediately.
> 
> ...


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Tried this setup out last night and it worked surprisingly well. Extra throw combo'd with the OB road added more usable reach to the beam. Hope the planned self-contained light will have equal or better performance to this Bontrager with some better mounting options (lower profile).
Mole


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## ssel (Oct 7, 2018)

Matt,

Could you tell us something about the charger? If I leave the battery pack charging overnight, will the charger detect full charge and safely cut off, or maybe switch over to a trickle charge? If it switches to a trickle charge, is there any benefit or any harm in leaving the pack charging for many hours? Thanks.


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## mahoogan (Sep 2, 2008)

I received my Trail this week, and I'm leaning heavily towards a Road for my helmet also.

Other options I'm considering are the Gloworm Alpha based on recommendations in this thread, and the L&M Trail 1000. Anyone use both the Road and another option on the helmet? I don't currently have a lot of high speed sections, so long distances aren't a huge factor. I'm also not looking for a remote.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

mahoogan said:


> I received my Trail this week, and I'm leaning heavily towards a Road for my helmet also.
> 
> Other options I'm considering are the Gloworm Alpha based on recommendations in this thread, and the L&M Trail 1000. Anyone use both the Road and another option on the helmet? I don't currently have a lot of high speed sections, so long distances aren't a huge factor. I'm also not looking for a remote.


I tried the trail(bar)/road(helmet) and it worked very well. "Blends well" is good descriptive way to put it as the road version keeps the nice smooth wide beam but extends overall reach out another approx. 25% (my guess). Alpha is more of a hot spot in the beam but has quite a bit more throw so better for higher speeds. L&M Trail 1000 (not used one) is probably more like the Alpha but also one of those high powered single cell self-contained lights that trades high lumen numbers in the first few minutes at the expense of lower amounts through the rest of the runtime. Retail to retail the Bontrager Ion 1300 is considerably less money and maintains a significant power advantage through the entire runtime. Here's a pretty rough approximation of power to time curves. Higher output dark line (forgive my poor freehand skills) represents numbers I got from my Ion 1300. Drawback to the Ion is extra weight.
Mole








Click to expand.


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## mahoogan (Sep 2, 2008)

MRMOLE said:


> I tried the trail(bar)/road(helmet) and it worked very well. "Blends well" is good descriptive way to put it as the road version keeps the nice smooth wide beam but extends overall reach out another approx. 25% (my guess). Alpha is more of a hot spot in the beam but has quite a bit more throw so better for higher speeds. L&M Trail 1000 (not used one) is probably more like the Alpha but also one of those high powered single cell self-contained lights that trades high lumen numbers in the first few minutes at the expense of lower amounts through the rest of the runtime. Retail to retail the Bontrager Ion 1300 is considerably less money and maintains a significant power advantage through the entire runtime. Here's a pretty rough approximation of power to time curves. Higher output dark line (forgive my poor freehand skills) represents numbers I got from my Ion 1300. Drawback to the Ion is extra weight.
> Mole
> 
> View attachment 1220413
> ...


Thank you for the feedback. I'm going to start with getting extra weight mounted to my current helmet setup to mimic the Road and Ion weights. I'll narrow down my choices based on how much the weight differences affect me. If the weight isn't a big factor, I'll go with the Road to complete the package.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

*6 cell please!*



I haven't seen anyone elso mention this but on some of my longer rides I'm not able to access the higher modes for the last portion of the ride. Once battery level goes down to 3 lights the second to the lowest mode is as high as the light will stay at and once down to 2 lights the lowest mode. Is this the way it's supposed to work? Not an issue when using the road version since I normally run it at the second to lowest mode anyway but it does limit the trail as I prefer using the higher modes. I'd been using older Ituo batteries for mounting reasons and had just assumed they were getting weaker and causing this but finally got around to meter testing using the newer OB battery and a fairly new 8400 M-tiger 6 cell battery I have. Running in the highest mode with the OB battery fan cooled in my kitchen the light lasted 70 min. till it stepped down to the second from lowest mode and 2:20 down to the lowest mode. Same test with the 6 cell battery netted 1:50 running at the highest level and continues at the second to lowest mode till approx 3:30. I'm thinking this must have something to do with the emergency power reserve settings cause at the end of the last test I plugged the battery into a BT40 that was sitting nearby and it powered up to its normal max lux readings. Whatever the cause I'd say if you do long rides and like to use the higher settings on your light getting a higher capacity battery is probably a good idea.
Mole


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Not alone on that, I assumed the first time it was the fact I was using an SS case (just charged and balanced because I use it to charge bluetooth speaker and phone). But did it on a 6800mah Panasonic pack too. Was just assuming it was the connectors not jiving well. Broke out my CR900 for the rest of that ride

Next ride Went to the 6 cell for my Theia and no issues but that ride was only an hour roughly. Also wondered if I had gone into adaptive mode accidently.

Now I am wondering if I need to put a pack together specifically for this light that will keep voltage high enough for the majority of the run time.

Hopefully just missed something or goofed settings (or even using a bigger pack as I got lighthead only) because by far the best road riding light out there IMHO. And about to get A LOT OF USE because I think I can start trying to ride again but smooth pavement (or gravel with fat tires) only.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Thought that was weird too. Just isn't as bright towards the end of the ride. Turned my bar mounted OB Trail off and on and it seemed locked to the 3rd brightest setting, the button not seeming to have any function but to show I'm in the 3rd mode, after about 1.5 hrs of use. I ride about 4 hours, with first 1.5h being bright enough to ride without the light. People ask me what I'm running, and I just tell 'em it's a kickstarter light from Outbound. By the last hour, other lights around me are able to overpower my light.

Not a complaint, since it's functional. Love how 2 combine to make a nice even carpet of light. Just something that my senses picked up on that I stored in the back of my mind. Honestly never purposely put it into the lower 3 settings except in my garage when I first got them. I turn it to adaptive and leave it there, sometimes just leaving it on at rest stops, since I trust the battery capacity.

Were also times I notice the 4th light flickering, which I understand is the battery life gauge/voltage reading? Sometimes it stops flickering and just returns to a solid 4th light.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

RAKC Ind said:


> Hopefully just missed something or goofed settings (or even using a bigger pack as I got lighthead only) because by far the best road riding light out there IMHO. And about to get A LOT OF USE because I think I can start trying to ride again but smooth pavement (or gravel with fat tires) only.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


That's great to hear as long as it's Doctor approved. Happy for you buddy!!



> Now I am wondering if I need to put a pack together specifically for this light that will keep voltage high enough for the majority of the run time.


Eventually that might be a good idea. For the moment I'm thinking existing runtime is far greater than the endurance of your surgically repaired shoulder.
Alright I'm done preaching, just be careful.:thumbsup:
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

The forcing of the lower modes is something that is going to be fixed in a programming change. Basically there as a safeguard to make sure never going to be left in the dark unexpectedly, but got too aggressive on the programming, and should have put in the function to allow an override once selected again. 

The flickering is another programming thing that was sent to my EE guy to look into some more. Basically the PID control needs to be softened up on the status light instead of bouncing back and forth and providing instantaneous readings on the battery, which can sometimes bounce when the controller is sampling the voltage. 

Will be trying to figure out a way to get people who want the new programming update to get updated.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Took the road version and an old 7800 6 cell battery for about 2.5 hrs. on the Beargrease. Spent most of the ride in the second from lowest setting and used highest level sparingly leaving four dots lit on the lighthead at the end and access to all the mode levels (6 cell works good). 
Mole


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## angerdan (Sep 18, 2017)

ZenkiS14 said:


> I'm just curious where a remote mounts on the bars that makes it so much more convenient? Post pics for science


Here are some pictures of the (illuminated) Specialized Flux remote control: 


angerdan said:


> So is there a technical option included to maybe add an remote control later?
> This would be the third very big advantage over the SPecialized Flux expert  (besides higher lumens and runtime).
> 
> What i really like are the illuminated buttons:
> Specialized Flux Expert headlight review - Mtbr.com





angerdan said:


> Images of the specialized could been found on CPF in the past.
> REVIEW: Specialized Flux Expert Bicycle Headlight - Photo Intensive - Page 2
> Specialized Flux Expert/Elite - Page 2


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

I'd love to be able to override the forced stepdown. My rides don't venture too far so I won't be stranded deep in the woods. I'd rather have max available brightness for as long as possible.


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## wingless (Oct 12, 2018)

The Outbound Lighting Road Edition was selected and purchased, largely based on information gleaned from reading this really long and detailed topic. I was very enamored with the optical design, prior to purchase. After purchase I was also impressed with lots of other features, like the thermal management and the handlebar mount, to name a few.

The headlight is performing as-expected.

This topic details my impressions and evaluation of the headlight.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Always happy to be back doing lighting design. 

Since I quit my full-time lighting engineering job in August, I've been without the software required for real lighting design. Not anymore! Upgraded my workstation and got my favorite software going again.

Been working on some high level concepts for a while now, but now starting to get into the more nitty gritty details. It's a totally different approach to lighting than what everyone else has done, with a huge focus on runtime, weight and of course, the beam pattern.


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## MOBH (Nov 25, 2017)

As the owner of the road model, I'd be interested in receiving this update
Also, and I forgot, I never received the new and improved silicone strap that was mooted as an upgrade.

regards.

MOB.



Outbound said:


> The forcing of the lower modes is something that is going to be fixed in a programming change. Basically there as a safeguard to make sure never going to be left in the dark unexpectedly, but got too aggressive on the programming, and should have put in the function to allow an override once selected again.
> 
> The flickering is another programming thing that was sent to my EE guy to look into some more. Basically the PID control needs to be softened up on the status light instead of bouncing back and forth and providing instantaneous readings on the battery, which can sometimes bounce when the controller is sampling the voltage.
> 
> Will be trying to figure out a way to get people who want the new programming update to get updated.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MOBH said:


> As the owner of the road model, I'd be interested in receiving this update
> Also, and I forgot, I never received the new and improved silicone strap that was mooted as an upgrade.
> 
> regards.
> ...


Sent you a PM regarding the straps!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Got word from the SMT house that we'll have boards by next week as planned. We've got a pretty big backlog of orders that kept coming so it'll be quite busy soon!

Did get some new updated castings for a dimensional check before the next run. Some small internal improvements to help with first time quality, reducing the amount of rework, and improving production speed. Nothing external changed. But looks great in the raw!


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

So I did my first night ride of the season yesterday with the Trail edition. I bought the downhill package but wanted to see if just the trail edition on the bars would be enough. I would describe it as adequate. It is enough light even getting around corners. I am looking forward to putting the road edition on my helmet on my next ride. I have a feeling that will be damn near like riding in daylight.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

sptimmy43 said:


> So I did my first night ride of the season yesterday with the Trail edition. I bought the downhill package but wanted to see if just the trail edition on the bars would be enough. I would describe it as adequate. It is enough light even getting around corners. I am looking forward to putting the road edition on my helmet on my next ride. I have a feeling that will be damn near like riding in daylight.


When the lights are so good that you're comparing to daylight's lumens and beam pattern, instead of comparing to other lights... xD


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

I've finally gotten a few rides in the dark and I'm liking the trail version on my bars. 
On it's own I don't think I'd be satisfied as its just not super bright/not a ton of throw, but
with the BT21 w/spot optics on my helmet the combo is awesome. Lots of light around the bike 
and good throw down trail. Tints seem to get along as well.


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

ninjichor said:


> When the lights are so good that you're comparing to daylight's lumens and beam pattern, instead of comparing to other lights... xD


Haha. Yes the lights are good. I want to be clear, though. Seriously. The even spread of light is awesome and sets this apart from most other lights. The trail edition on it's own is "adequate." It was enough light to ride and be safe and even carry some speed but I was left wanting a bit more for the type of riding I do. I think the road edition on the helmet will compliment it perfectly for getting a bit more throw down the trail and peering through corners and over obstacles where a single light on the bars falls short.

We shall see. Night riding season is upon us.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Outbound lights are out of stock. 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

sptimmy43 said:


> Haha. Yes the lights are good. I want to be clear, though. Seriously. The even spread of light is awesome and sets this apart from most other lights. The trail edition on it's own is "adequate." It was enough light to ride and be safe and even carry some speed but I was left wanting a bit more for the type of riding I do. I think the road edition on the helmet will compliment it perfectly for getting a bit more throw down the trail and peering through corners and over obstacles where a single light on the bars falls short.
> 
> We shall see. Night riding season is upon us.


That was exactly my sentiment and you're exactly right. Trail on the bars and road on the helmet = daytime.


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

So I finally got out for a ride with the "Ultimate Downhill Package." All I can say is, "Wow!" The deficiencies of running just the trail edition on the bars were more than made up for with the addition of the road edition on the helmet. There was plenty of throw down the trail and around corners. I am really pleased with this combination!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Indeed I'm on back order. New die castings arrive early next week. All the driver boards are in, and will be able to fulfill about 60 of the current back orders. By that point I'm fresh out of batteries until late next week, so I hope to be fully back in stock right before thanksgiving.

I had no plans to grow this fast, I figured it was going to take a year to get to this kind of growth and it's what I planned my initial ordering on. It's a good problem to have, but still a problem. 

The backlog right now is 120+ lights, but I can bang out about 80 in a day now with my improvements to the assembly process so as soon as parts are in, lights are going out the door!


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

Outbound said:


> Indeed I'm on back order. New die castings arrive early next week. All the driver boards are in, and will be able to fulfill about 60 of the current back orders. By that point I'm fresh out of batteries until late next week, so I hope to be fully back in stock right before thanksgiving.
> 
> I had no plans to grow this fast, I figured it was going to take a year to get to this kind of growth and it's what I planned my initial ordering on. It's a good problem to have, but still a problem.
> 
> The backlog right now is 120+ lights, but I can bang out about 80 in a day now with my improvements to the assembly process so as soon as parts are in, lights are going out the door!


I get that you are super busy but have you had a chance to figure out how you might be able to distribute a software/programming update to current light owners to prevent the output from stepping down once battery capacity is depleted to "3 bars?"


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## bills8 (Jul 30, 2016)

sptimmy43 said:


> I get that you are super busy but have you had a chance to figure out how you might be able to distribute a software/programming update to current light owners to prevent the output from stepping down once battery capacity is depleted to "3 bars?"


I am interested to know this as well.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

when will outbound restock their lights?


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Picard said:


> when will outbound restock their lights?


Seems like that was answered a few posts back... post# 718 says....



Outbound said:


> ...... so I hope to be fully back in stock right before thanksgiving.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

sptimmy43 said:


> I get that you are super busy but have you had a chance to figure out how you might be able to distribute a software/programming update to current light owners to prevent the output from stepping down once battery capacity is depleted to "3 bars?"


 It would be great if this happens but don't ignore the plug-in solution of just getting a larger capacity battery. I was curious just how long you could run the lights in high mode (level 2) and maintain full output. I also have access to a 8400 mAh 6 cell battery (6200 mAh stock) so I ran both to the stepdown point with the results being stock battery 69 min. and M-tiger 6 cell lasting for 130 min. 2:10 of runtime in high is a big improvement and there's a lot higher capacity good quality 6 cell batteries out there that are reasonably priced if you need more high mode time.
Mole


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

MRMOLE said:


> It would be great if this happens but don't ignore the plug-in solution of just getting a larger capacity battery. I was curious just how long you could run the lights in high mode (level 2) and maintain full output. I also have access to a 8400 mAh 6 cell battery (6200 mAh stock) so I ran both to the stepdown point with the results being stock battery 69 min. and M-tiger 6 cell lasting for 130 min. 2:10 of runtime in high is a big improvement and there's a lot higher capacity good quality 6 cell batteries out there that are reasonably priced if you need more high mode time.
> Mole


You make a very valid point. I may just do exactly what you suggest.

I don't really need more run time. My after work rides are usually an hour or maybe an hour and a half long and almost always start before sunset. It's more that I would like to have control over the output. I understand the logic behind having it step down but my use case doesn't leave me stranded deep in the woods trying to avoid becoming dinner to some hungry wildlife if my battery is depleted. For me having full output for a longer duration at the risk of running the battery flat is not a problem.


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## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

hmm the more i hear about these lights the more I notice how my current lights can't show me into the corners!

ordered


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

sptimmy43 said:


> I get that you are super busy but have you had a chance to figure out how you might be able to distribute a software/programming update to current light owners to prevent the output from stepping down once battery capacity is depleted to "3 bars?"





bills8 said:


> I am interested to know this as well.


I third this ^


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## ryderjo (Oct 7, 2017)

Incoming feature request, maybe for some future version of this light or the one with integrated batter you're working on. Offer a super-low brightness setting, (>100 lumens, maybe 50?). I often use my bike light as a light for setting up camp, and I'd just be draining the battery unnecessarily at 400lumen (let alone I don't like it that bright for setting up camp/cooking food).


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## wingless (Oct 12, 2018)

Welcome to the forum. 

The linear LED array used in the headlight has a specified minimum operating current. My guess is the existing low setting is already near that minimum current (intensity).

One way to implement an effective lower intensity would be to pulse on/off the LED within e specified operating current range, but at a lower duty cycle and at a high enough frequency for the human eye to integrate the flashing so it appears as continuous illuminatin, but at a lower brightness.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Yep, what wingless said is right, because it's a 5 chip led run in series we are already at the minimum operating voltage for the lowest setting. I do wish it went lower too! There are some array chips that allow multichannel control such as the osram black flat, but poor thermal dissipation, and a more expensive multichannel driver would have negated any gains.

As for updating older lights with the new software, I'm certainly open to having lights returned to be updated, would potentially be a week turnaround (2-3 days to get here, programmed same day, 2-3 days to get back) that I'm willing to do for anyone willing to pay for the shipping. I'll post here when ready to get into that mode.

Right now have over 150 back orders to fulfill, along with the holiday increase in sales, and to throw another wrench into the mix my family and I are moving to Chicago at the end of the year for my wife's job. Stressful is a good word for it. 

Currently was able to fulfill some more backorders today since the new castings arrived, now waiting on batteries. Battery supplier had to delay their shipment a bit so running behind schedule again, should be back up to full strength at the end of the month. I hate this backorder business.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> As for updating older lights with the new software, I'm certainly open to having lights returned to be updated, would potentially be a week turnaround (2-3 days to get here, programmed same day, 2-3 days to get back) that I'm willing to do for anyone willing to pay for the shipping. I'll post here when ready to get into that mode.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Mole


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## ryderjo (Oct 7, 2017)

Sorry like a interesting solution to getting the light dimmer.



wingless said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> The linear LED array used in the headlight has a specified minimum operating current. My guess is the existing low setting is already near that minimum current (intensity).
> 
> One way to implement an effective lower intensity would be to pulse on/off the LED within e specified operating current range, but at a lower duty cycle and at a high enough frequency for the human eye to integrate the flashing so it appears as continuous illuminatin, but at a lower brightness.


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## wingless (Oct 12, 2018)

wingless said:


> One way to implement an effective lower intensity would be to pulse on/off the LED within e specified operating current range, but at a lower duty cycle and at a high enough frequency for the human eye to integrate the flashing so it appears as continuous illumination, but at a lower brightness.





ryderjo said:


> Sounds like a interesting solution to getting the light dimmer.


 The "high" frequency LED flashing at adjustable duty cycle is a common way to implement LED intensity changes.

The LED has a very fast turn on and turn off time making this an effective method.

One big detractor for this solution is that it will generate radio frequency interference that will require normal suppression methods.


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## TimothyH (Mar 1, 2017)

How do these things mount on an out-front style GPS mount with the GoPro mount underneath?

Out front style GPS mounts with GoPro underneath require the light to be mounted upside down. Is this light able to be mounted right-side up under a GPS mount?

I assume upside down won't work due to cut off beam pattern. 


-Tim-


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

the lights the same as any other. Mount on the bottom. Not possible to mount upside down. Those out front mounts were never designed around lights, designed around using cameras.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

Been reading quite a lot on this lamp now. Has anyone in this forum ever had the chance to compare the outbound road edition to a Lupine SL or SLF?
On their webpage a customer said it's better than the SL (regarding throw), but i'd like some pictures... Anyone from germany or austria here who owns the road edition?

And there is the question of lumens: Are those 1500 lm (from the runtimes and the battery capacity i did calculate a 18W consumption?) measured with the final assembled light or taken from data sheets? So far i haven't found an answer to this, but could be that i missed that bit of information.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

biking_tg said:


> And there is the question of lumens: Are those 1500 lm (from the runtimes and the battery capacity i did calculate a 18W consumption?) measured with the final assembled light or taken from data sheets? So far i haven't found an answer to this, but could be that i missed that bit of information.


As soon as I get a bit more cash flow I want to snag one of the Lupine lights myself to disassemble and do some comparisons. Those things are pricey! 

As for the lumens, that's from the datasheet using the input power. Not just theoretical maximums like most lumen ratings. I'm not too interested in figuring out the "actual" as I'm more interested in the candella ratings at various angles, much like how automotive headlights are tested and rated. On my list this year of things I want to do is to get the light measured on a goniophotometer to get an accurate light distribution model to compare to my simulated one and figure out the discrepancies.

Also, finally back in stock and shipping. Been perptually out of stock for almost 2 months. As soon as I got one part in stock I'd run out of another. Right now the downhill packages are on a 1 week wait due to the helmet mounts, but otherwise we are good to go to ship! Been an insane year with a lot of up's and downs, mostly up's though!

Really looking forward to 2019 with a laser focus to slowly build and grow. Moving to Chicago soon but still maintaining the asssembly and design entirely in-house. Doing development work on a self-contained battery light to compete with the Lumina, Urban, etc. that I hope to start prototyping soon. Still in the design iterations as I have gone through at least a dozen different concepts at this point.


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## JDHutch (Sep 29, 2017)

Are the trail and road lights the same size/weight? 
How does the road light feel mounted on top of a helmet? 
In the instance where you go out riding not sure if you’ll need a light later in the evening how well do they pack into a backpack or hydration pack? 

Thanks.


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

JDHutch said:


> Are the trail and road lights the same size/weight?
> How does the road light feel mounted on top of a helmet?
> In the instance where you go out riding not sure if you'll need a light later in the evening how well do they pack into a backpack or hydration pack?
> 
> Thanks.


I believe the road and trail versions are the same weight. I think the only difference between the 2 is the internal reflector shape. I have both and mount the road version to my helmet. I don't have a ton of experience with other lights so I am not sure how it compares to others. I don't really notice it's on my helmet when I am actually riding. I usually just throw it on my helmet if I think my ride may end in darkness as I don't like wearing a pack. I am sure you could throw it in your pack just as easily.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Yep. Road and Trail are identical except for the reflector. The light head itself only weighs 100g, for reference a gopro hero6 weighs 153g. I have an extension cord that makes for just the right length to drop into a backpack or hip pack for that exact reason.

I personally don't notice the light on my head since it's quite lightweight.


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## SpeedyChix (Apr 17, 2005)

I"m so anxious to try my light out. It looks great.
Waiting for doc's release to resume riding which can NOT come soon enough.


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## cor35vet (Jul 19, 2015)

Hey,
I'm in the market for a new bike light to stop blinding people on the road with my BT40s (which is pretty nice in the woods).
I've already got a strong light battery (2S3P NCR18650GA) so I'm looking for a lighthead only.
I found the trail edition lighthead: https://www.outboundlighting.com/product/trail-edition-lighthead/ but can't find the road one on your site.

I've also recently converted my bike to an e-bike with a Bafang BBSHD and a DIY 14S10P battery so I'm probably going to run the light from a DC-DC converter.
It's great that your light can do up to 14V, I'll probably end up running it at 12V in the future.

It's probably also worth mentioning that I'm from Europe (Austria), the shop is showing me $27 for shipping, which seems alright.
However with 20% import taxes + fees that's gonna put this light at around 200€, so I'll probably wait a bit with ordering and see if I can get a friend or so to take it with them on a plane to Europe.

Since you mentioned firmware issues, do you have a solution for firmware updates yet? It's obviously not feasible for me to ship the light from EU to US and back. I've got plenty of equipment and knowledge to flash MCUs though, if you were okay with sending compiled firmware to customers.
And have you thought about making the firmware open source, also which MCU are you using?
If open source firmware is not something you want to do, what about a little tool for configuring it, expose the UART pins on a pin header on the PCB and give pros a way to tweak the most important stuff?

You might also want to post your light to https://endless-sphere.com/forums/, it's full of tech enthusiasts that will hopefully love your light as much as I do.


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## caRpetbomBer (Jul 13, 2013)

@Outbound. Hey do you guys just sell the battery case with no battery by it self.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Anyone else find the DH kit-supplied curved adhesive mount fragile? Maybe I got a dud--it broke when I tried to reinstall the light after a few months of use, probably the 6th time I removed the lighthead. Ordered a new one and it seems like it was advertised to just be plain ABS, perhaps recycled. I think my installation process weakened it, as I used a heatgun to prep the 3M VHB adhesive.

If this next one turns out to be a dud, I wonder if there's an fiber reinforced version.


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## JIMSLICK (Nov 19, 2012)

can anyone give me a comparison of the trail version compared to something like the glowworm 2500 or the gemeni titan 4000, thanks


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

A comparison to the light and motion Seca Race would be great as well. It too claims to have the cutoff for not blinding people and they have another model called the Taz that is a self contained system with the same “technology”. I would be curious to find out how these light compare against each other. 

Also is there a mount that outs this light dead center of the stem? Or can I mount it UNDER the stem centered etc for a much more streamlined look. I’m guessing due to the optics you can’t mount it upside down.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

cue003 said:


> A comparison to the light and motion Seca Race would be great as well. It too claims to have the cutoff for not blinding people and they have another model called the Taz that is a self contained system with the same "technology". I would be curious to find out how these light compare against each other.
> 
> Also is there a mount that outs this light dead center of the stem? Or can I mount it UNDER the stem centered etc for a much more streamlined look. I'm guessing due to the optics you can't mount it upside down.

















There's the PNW Range gopro stem, the Gloworm QR mount+gopro adapter, or the gopro stem adapters. I picked up a chinzy stem faceplate bolt adapter, and opted not to use it, due to lack of confidence, and my propensity to end up going over the bars and wrecking anything mounted in front or above the bars.

I have more confidence in this design due to its heat management and even, well shaped beam pattern. A bit floody for open desert through, and not quite enough light far away for riding fast, I've personally found with the DH package. Not surprising considering the designer's videos, showing use in a forest. I'm often slowing down just to be able to see what's coming up, as I can't tell what's changed due to rain erosion during the wet winter season. New ruts/trenches/ditches would be an unwelcome surprise, leading me to counter with my signature over-the-bars maneuver if caught unprepared.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

MRMOLE said:


> View attachment 1216021
> 
> 
> View attachment 1216022


Road with the Gloworm mount.
Mole

***Not sure why shots were converted back to attachments but you can still click on them to see the pictures***


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

*Comparison Outbound Road vs Lupine SL-F(in low beam)*

MrMole and Ninjichor thanks for posting the tipps for mounting :thumbsup:
@Outbound: i'd recommend to take a quick release holder similar to the one from gloworm into your program. of course one could order at two shops, but having it all from one source is nicer.

So, i am finally a owner of the Road Edition as well. I do own the Lupine SL-F and compared the Road Edition to this lamp. On full power i couldn't say which of those lamps has more reach (comparing of course only Low/dipped beam), while the outbound has more light right in front of the bike and the illumination is a bit more homogeneuous compared to the lupine. The Lupine feels like it as a bite more spread in the distance. Both lamps weigh the same, the lupine is bit smaller, but has this PMMA lens which is a bit more sensitive to scratches.

Although i have a pretty new light i still have an automatic step down in the programming (to medium), light wasn't hat hot. I couldn't override this setting. 
[Edit1: seems like the battery was pretty low, not just 60%, it was charging more than 4hrs.]
[Edit2: different day, new findings. the light was again stepping down from high to medium. One could then switch to medium-high and the software did not step down. Also after staying a few secs on the medium setting i could again select the high mode and the lamp stayed there. Battery indicator showed then 2 LEDs, one was blinking, so around 25% runtime left]
@Outbound: how is the new software compared to the older version? Does the lamp head draw current when switched off but connected to the battery?

Regarding battery runtimes and light settings @Outbound
on your Kickstarter page you give higher runtimes than on your webpage. Are they just more conservative in the shop? You could give some lumen numbers in your shop and on your manual (as given on kickstarter)

in a german forum there are some pictures where i compare the Outboud Road to Lupine SL-F, the Ixon Space and and some other lamps. I am too lazy to upload all the pics here.
Here is the link: https://www.mtb-news.de/forum/t/out...uer-trail-strasse.861181/page-4#post-15726855
I do guess one can get the lamps and the lamp settings even from german, but i translate what i wrote in the beginning:

Markings in the pics are at 20-22m, 40-42m and 60-62m. The camera settings were ISO 100, aperture F/4, 4 secs exposure time. It was a wet forest road and there came quite some fog up during the shooting. The road has a slight tilt downwards from inbetween the first and the second marking and the pictures are slightly to dark when one looks at the area behind the second marking. The last marking (bike helmet with neon yellow cover) and trees there were clearly visible with the Lupine at all settings (except lowest) and for the outbound (except lowest).


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

ninjichor said:


> View attachment 1236314
> 
> 
> There's the PNW Range gopro stem,


This PNW stem will not be friendly to many bike lights with GoPro compatible mounts. The location of the tabs on the face plate will make the back of many lights interfere with the faceplate.

On edit:

Discovered that the position of the GoPro tabs is adjustable. That should make it work with a wider range of lights.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

ninjichor said:


> View attachment 1236314
> View attachment 1236313
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the mounting info. Looking forward to seeing the improvements that will be made to this light. Maybe a slightly bigger battery and twice as bright on all settings with the same or better runtime. Too much?


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

@biking_tg Were you testing against the 1000/1300 lumen Lupine? If so, isn’t that lupine significantly more expensive? But quite a bit smaller and more compact with a remote.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

cue003 said:


> @biking_tg Were you testing against the 1000/1300 lumen Lupine? If so, isn't that lupine significantly more expensive? But quite a bit smaller and more compact with a remote.


I was testing against the 1000/1300 lm lupine SL-F. When I bought it I didn't know about outbound only about the SL (_without F_). Yep lupine is significantly more expensive, even when adding customs fee and import gst/vat to the outbound (but the lupine SL-F is one of the best legal lamps available in Germany, where rules on bike lighting are strict. Plus it has the high beam)
[Edit] Only the 1000 lm dipped/cutoff beam of the Lupine SL-F can be compared to the outbound road. One cannot compare the OL Road to the 1300 lm high beam of the SL-F. Lupine offers the SL-(A) and the SL-(A)F (*S*traßen*L*ampe/*S*treet*L*ight with cutoff beam; F means *F*ernlicht=high beam, "A" stands for *A*ccumulator=battery ) [/Edit]
A more realistic price comparison would be to the 900lm SL _(without F!)_, which comes without remote. The remote is nice, but imho only necessary due to high beam. Size difference is not really relevant for me, the outbound is a tad wider and has a bit deeper body but I guess therefore better heat dissipation. the qr barmount of the lupine however is much neater.
If someone uses a trail lamp and is looking for _an additonal_, not blinding road light (_and doesn't mind using two lamps_), I'd clearly recommend the outbound road over the SL _(without F!)_. Comparing the SL-F to the Outbound Road is not really possible and therefore i couldn't give a preference due to different features.
Edit: in a later post there is a price comparison of the lamps


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Vancbiker said:


> This PNW stem will not be friendly to many bike lights with GoPro compatible mounts. The location of the tabs on the face plate will make the back of many lights interfere with the faceplate.


I was looking at this setup and think maybe you can slide the mount up and down the cutout in the stem faceplate. Stole a couple of pic's off there web page with one showing the mount in what looks like a higher position and another with no mount at all so assuming the Gopro mount is a add on. What do you think?
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

biking_tg said:


> Although i have a pretty new lamp i still have an automatic step down in the programming (to medium), lamp wasn't hat hot. I couldn't override this setting.
> Edit: seems like the battery was pretty low, not just 60%, it was charging more than 4hrs.
> @Outbound: how is the new software compared to the older version? Does the lamp head draw current when switched off but connected to the battery?


Thought I'd repost this since it relates to this situation.
Mole

It would be great if this happens but don't ignore the plug-in solution of just getting a larger capacity battery. I was curious just how long you could run the lights in high mode (level 2) and maintain full output. I also have access to a 8400 mAh 6 cell battery (6200 mAh stock) so I ran both to the stepdown point with the results being stock battery 69 min. and M-tiger 6 cell lasting for 130 min. 2:10 of runtime in high is a big improvement and there's a lot higher capacity good quality 6 cell batteries out there that are reasonably priced if you need more high mode time.
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> I was looking at this setup and think maybe you can slide the mount up and down the cutout in the stem faceplate. Stole a couple of pic's off there web page with one showing the mount in what looks like a higher position and another with no mount at all so assuming the Gopro mount is a add on. What do you think?
> Mole
> 
> View attachment 1236509


I think you are right. Spent a few minutes on their website and it mentions adjustable GoPro mount and one reviewer knocked off a star because there were no instructions on how to install the GoPro mount. I'll edit my post.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

MRMOLE said:


> Thought I'd repost this since it relates to this situation.
> Mole
> 
> It would be great if this happens but don't ignore the plug-in solution of just getting a larger capacity battery. I was curious just how long you could run the lights in high mode (level 2) and maintain full output. I also have access to a 8400 mAh 6 cell battery (6200 mAh stock) so I ran both to the stepdown point with the results being stock battery 69 min. and M-tiger 6 cell lasting for 130 min. 2:10 of runtime in high is a big improvement and there's a lot higher capacity good quality 6 cell batteries out there that are reasonably priced if you need more high mode time.
> Mole


Those runtime numbers on high are great for what I would want. Do you have recommendations/links to these better battery packs you are referencing that are even better than the M-Tiger?

Thanks


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

biking_tg said:


> I was testing against the 1000/1300 lm lupine SL-F. When I bought it I didn't know about outbound. Yep lupine is significantly more expensive, even when adding customs fee and 19% import gst/vat to the outbound (but one of the best legal lamps available in Germany, where rules on bike lighting are strict. Plus it has the high beam) A more realistic price comparison would be to the 900lm SL. Remote is nice, but only necessary due to high beam. Size difference is not really relevant for me, the outbound is a tad wider and has a bit deeper body but I guess therefore better heat dissipation. the qr barmount of the lupine however is much neater. If someone uses a trail lamp and is looking for a not blinding road light only (and doesn't mind using two lamps), I'd clearly recommend the outbound road over the SL.


That is a great recommendation to put the outbound above the lupine sl-f. That says a good bit for the outbound.

Now if there was only a fix for how high and bulky the helmet mount is for this light it might be a absolute winning package with the low profile bar mount from Gloworm, better battery pack for longer runtimes on full output (high) and a reduction somehow of the mounting system for the helmet (if possible).


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

cue003 said:


> Those runtime numbers on high are great for what I would want. Do you have recommendations/links to these better battery packs you are referencing that are even better than the M-Tiger?
> 
> Thanks


I usually can find good options through Hunk Lee on ebay but all the higher capacity packs are shipping directly out of China which tacks on a $35 shipping charge so not such a good deal anymore. M-tiger packs were the best deals I could find (6 & 8 cell packs). Here's a link to the battery thread. With batteries the best place to buy seems to constantly change so they should be able to steer to the best source.
Mole

https://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/battery-thread-2016-beyond-997165-5.html

https://www.rakclighting.com/collections/batteries/products/m-tiger-battery-packs?variant=939996807187


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

MRMOLE said:


> Thought I'd repost this since it relates to this situation.
> Mole
> It would be great if this happens but don't ignore the plug-in solution of just getting a larger capacity battery. ...
> Mole





Outbound said:


> The forcing of the lower modes is something that is going to be fixed in a programming change. Basically there as a safeguard to make sure never going to be left in the dark unexpectedly, but got too aggressive on the programming, and should have put in the function to allow an override once selected again.


Thanks Mole for reposting, i knew your post. I did talk to Outbound before ordering mid of Jan and he said i got the new software (see his post), that's why i was asking. At the moment i don't want to spend money on another battery pack and plus i do not wan't to have so many batteries (fly-/)lie-ing around at home...
[Edit: new findings on that issue. the light was again stepping down from high to medium. One could then switch to medium-high and the software did not step down. After staying a few secs on the medium-high setting i could again select the high mode and the lamp stayed there. Battery indicator showed then at high 2 LEDs, one was blinking, so i guess that step down of the newer software kicks in at around 25% runtime on high left.
However, after switching the lamp off and back on a few minutes later i couldn't permanently active the high mode anymore]



cue003 said:


> That is a great recommendation to put the outbound above the lupine sl-f. That says a good bit for the outbound. .


I edited my earlier post (#752) to clarfiy things
[Edit: At the moment i do experience severe fogging issues with the light (inner side of the lens) when operating the lamp in the high mode_ below freezing point_. This is something that i do not experience with the Lupine. Until i have found a way to deal with this is issue, this is a clear "do not buy" indication, at least not if you are overseas and cheap and speedy shipping back to OL for warranty/maitenance is not possible. If you do not ride at temperatures below freezing point, then you do not have to worry about this either]
In short: the recommendation was meant only "over the _SL" (without F!)_, which has no high beam, and the same (even more homogeneous but only 900 lm) cutoff beam pattern as the SL-F. Although the OL is listed with more lumens, _i_ could not detect much difference when it comes to reach between the SL-F cutoff beam (rated and measured 1000 lm) and the OL Road beam (1500 lm, data sheet @85°C, an optical efficiency of 96% is somewhere given on the Kickstarter page). As i said before it's a draw/stand-off in my opinion but with different beam pattern styles and tastes regarding beam patterns differ.

Regarding more details on beam patterns read again my post #748

Here are the price numbers to support my recommendation:
1)Lupine (USD prices from Lupine north america)
SL-A7: 485 USD (vs 385€/440 USD in Europe)
SL-AF7 595 USD (vs 466€/~530 USD)
- same battery size as the Outbound, but with integrated capacity indicator
- to be fair one would have to deduct 35 USD which is the price increase for Lupine batteries with a good capacity indicator, but you can't get a SL(F) in a bundle with the "standard" battery 
2)Outbound
- 225 USD + shipment
- vs 308 USD/~270€ In germany (incl shipment + Customs + import GST/VAT

The SL (without F) is for sure not on such a different level than the OL Road to justify either 260 USD (or even 110 € in germany) price difference. Even if one looks at the lamp heads only, the lupines are significantly more expensive and the SL (!, not F) is imho not worth that extra charge. For the price difference between the SL-AF7 and the OL Road in the states one could get a nice additional light as thrower/high beam and in sum quite more lumens than from the SL-AF alone.

If one wants to have however_ only one _light, than one would probably have to go for either a SL-F or a Supernova M99 MiniPro (in either 25 or 45 Version). The latter is a an e-bike light so one has to adapt it to a battery pack. Pricewise they are similar to the Lupine SL-F.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

*Beam Pattern and internal fogging of the Lens*

I noticed yesterday night (snowy conditions, a couple of °C below freezing point) that the area right in front of the bike is pretty bright compared to the rest of the beam, which gave me the feeling of only a short reach of the light, when backgroundlighting was present (i.e streetlamps). In total darkness it was less a problem. However when i came from the cold back into the warmth of the flat, i noticed quite some _fogging on the inner side of the silikon lens_ (which disappeared after switching off the lamp and waiting a few minutes in the warmth), so i do not know whether that experienced brightness difference between right in front of the bike and at distance (>20m) was due to the fogging or is due to the the reflector or whether it's both. i have to look out for this on my next rides. The lamp came from the warm flat straight on the bike, was on low for the first 5-10 mins of the ride, afterwards i switched to full throttle. didn't check the lamp/lens during the ride.

Edit: i added a pic of the lens with the fog. I tested again today at -3 °C, left the light 15-20 mins in the cold before powering up. Again after a few minutes at full power (no air movement, light on a table outside) the lens started to steam up on the inside, covering even more area of the lens than on the pic. it is this part of the lens which seems "milky" when the light is operated (at least on high mode). 
Tested it again in the room, ~20-21 °C, after 8 mins on max power (unless the light had dimmed down, was so hot that i couldn't touch it properly anymore) i saw a bit of fogging on the lens as well. Then i let the lamp cool down (outside, -3 °C), switched the lamp on again (sitting on a table at -3 °C) on high and saw again significant fogging after 5 min on high (Lamp was still cool after 5 mins). 
:madmax:

I know there is this gore patch in the light to allow for air exchange. How to deal with this issue of fogging? (@Outbound, any hints ? btw hope you survived the artic weather well....)
Any help is welcome (sending the lamp back for maintenance is not really an option as overseas). I wonder whether this is an issue caused by shipping the light overseas (pressure differences and temperature differences in the cargo area of the plane during flight?)


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

*Fogging*

Had a call with Outbound on the fogging matter. As the light system is not airtight (and also not watertight at ip68) air exchange with the environment is expected. As i used the light just a few days ago in a very foggy night, i might have gotten all that water vapour inside the light. I was offered to get a new light by outbound (or to get a refund), but being in germany (and liking the light) and considering shipping times i will try to get rid of that issue myself first before sending it back.
Will report whether and how i can solve it. Customer service is definitely excellent :thumbsup:


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

biking_tg said:


> Customer service is definitely excellent :thumbsup:


Yup! Won't hesitate to buy another one of his products when it comes out.
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> Yup! Won't hesitate to buy another one of his products when it comes out.
> Mole


Thanks for the compliments guys!

Been a slow month for sales which is always concerning as a new business, I'm hoping once the weather starts to warm up again we'll see a little uptick. However still hard at work on the next light.

Do you guys think I should do another discounted pre-order? I don't want to do kickstarter again since the amount of money spent after advertising, KS's slice, CC processing fees, etc, meant that only walked away with about half of the reported money raised that was able to put into the tooling. So I am thinking of doing a pre-order via my website. Would be like the KS, a 25-30% discount, but with lights to ship late summer/early fall.

This new one is going to be a self-contained light designed for helmet mounting. Some details:

1. This will be by far the lightest light on the market as a complete system. Sub 100g, potentially 90g with the mount included.
2. Runtime to exceed 2+ hours, without having to resort to crazy throttling or inconsistent lighting. 
3. Shaped beam pattern of course.
4. Not as wide of a beam pattern as the trail (since this is designed for helmet mounting) but much punchier than the Trail. Basically been designed to be the perfect compliment with the Trail on the bars.
5. Lots invested into overmolded features and simple assembly to keep things made in house and the quality high. This is going to be like the GoPro of lights in terms of feel.
6. Got one of the best in the business now helping me on the EE side. Former R&D Manager for CREE and incredibly passionate about bike lights. So expect a top-notch UI, driver efficiency, and more. 
7. USB-C rechargable! For some reason in the start 2019 the cost of USB-C ports dropped like 300% so now they are definitely affordable to use in new design. When I was looking at parts in late 2018 they were still pricey enough that I was like "ehhhh mayyyybe"

Few other details to start dropping as I get closer to completion. Design work is almost done (I started and scraped design at least a half dozen times now) and starting the prototype phase. Once I figure out a name for this light then I'll be starting a new topic since this light will be completely different than the current product lineup!


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Thanks for the compliments guys!
> 
> Been a slow month for sales which is always concerning as a new business, I'm hoping once the weather starts to warm up again we'll see a little uptick. However still hard at work on the next light.
> 
> ...


I am a big fan of self contained lights. Just so much cleaner without the running of extra wires or carrying extra battery packs.

I would be interested in the discounted advance purchase of this new light. Couple of requests

1) keep it super low profile to the helmet with easy on/off/switching to other helmets

2) have a handlebar mount option to go along with new light

3) maybe take a page out of Exposure Lighting with their reflex technology which could dim the light according speed etc.

4) another page out of Expsoure Lighting with Tap technology so you do t have to fiddle around to find the right output when the light is mounted on your head and you want to/need to adjust the brightness.

5) high output greater than the trail light on the bar.

6) of course matching led color output (xxxK) etc.

7) you already mentioned it but re-iterate that 2hr plus runtime at full output be the minimum target.

Looking forward to learning more about this new light.

Thanks.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

cue003 said:


> I am a big fan of self contained lights. Just so much cleaner without the running of extra wires or carrying extra battery packs.
> 
> I would be interested in the discounted advance purchase of this new light. Couple of requests
> 
> ...


1. Done. This was one of the first design requirements when I started things out. 
2. Done. Custom handlebar mount will be included and also adaptable to the other lights (outfront center mounted kind of thing).
3. Potentially, problem is that it starts to drive the cost up, a lot. I am not a huge fan of having different tiers of lighting, but things are being designed so there is flexibility in the future for things like OLED screens, speed sensing, etc, but those would come at a higher cost of course.
4. Another potential.
5. Done, this is designed with a stronger center beam than the trail, but not as strong as the Road Edition.
6. Of course.
7.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

I’m definitely in for a discounted pre-order for the light you describe. If you can manage the administrative details of running it on your own site, I think it’s better for you. You’ve gotten enough attention and word-of-mouth that I don’t think KS brings any additional exposure.


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## Rock Climber (Jul 25, 2007)

Outbound said:


> Do you guys think I should do another discounted pre-order? I don't want to do kickstarter again since the amount of money spent after advertising, KS's slice, CC processing fees, etc, meant that only walked away with about half of the reported money raised that was able to put into the tooling. So I am thinking of doing a pre-order via my website. Would be like the KS, a 25-30% discount, but with lights to ship late summer/early fall.


I'd sign up!


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

I'd be in for a discounted pre-order.


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## phalkon30 (Jan 17, 2009)

For what it's worth the advertisements are getting this name out there. I see daily Facebook ads, and my group ride talks about who might buy the first one based on what we've read.

I'm not in the market for a new light yet, but will definitely consider it for the future


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

I'm in discount or not. Details sound great. Didn't realize usb charging wasn't a given but happy to hear it will be a feature and think it's important for this light to be fully successful.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Matt,
1) What's your target price range?

2) What's your target lumen output range? (I know, lumens aren't everything)

3) Does the sub 100 gram weight include the battery?

Mole


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## SpeedyChix (Apr 17, 2005)

I like what I'm hearing about the helmet headlight. Sure a discount can motivate purchase but the way the handlebar unit is working ... I'd buy in early on it. Especially if it helps get it to market sooner.

Heck, my current light was 100% price, no discount. I still bought it. : )

Will be following and watching anxiously for updates.
Keep it simple, light and fast charging.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

I’d be interested but it would need to be twice as bright at the spot than the trail and double the throw. I’m using a the bt21 with glo worm spot optics now but carrying a battery is annoying.


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## JIMSLICK (Nov 19, 2012)

Outbound said:


> 1. Done. This was one of the first design requirements when I started things out.
> 2. Done. Custom handlebar mount will be included and also adaptable to the other lights (outfront center mounted kind of thing).
> 3. Potentially, problem is that it starts to drive the cost up, a lot. I am not a huge fan of having different tiers of lighting, but things are being designed so there is flexibility in the future for things like OLED screens, speed sensing, etc, but those would come at a higher cost of course.
> 4. Another potential.
> ...


please keep it simple for us old guys not all this silly stuff. just a simple on the light switch to turn it on and off, no remote or programing garbage. thanks


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## Rolekl (Dec 1, 2017)

What kind of size and form factor are we looking at? In my neck of the woods I need to keep the profile low not to get stuck in trees.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

- 100g or less WITH the battery and mount included. It's going to be super light. Hope to really smash the industry leaders with this.

- Dead simple as always. Single button, 4 status lights (down from 5 on the current light, 5 was just too many)

- Lumen count is undecided, reason being is that the unique approach I am taking to the optic design means that I can tweak the beam pattern via individual LED's. So the main goal is going to be maximizing battery life, by getting away with the least amount of lumens. Part of the development is going to be adjusting the lumen values of each individual LED to the point where you get a well balanced, but punchy light with as little lumens as possible. The human eye can't discern the difference between around 10-15% lumens when it comes to the same beam pattern and color temperature. Simulations suggest that I'll have the same performance as the NR Lumina Boost 1200 with about 800 or less lumens, but it's all going to come down to a balanced beam pattern that the eye perceives as bright which will get nailed down during testing.

- Very slim form factor, not long. This is not going to look like your typical self-contained bike light. Hence keeping the design somewhat close to my chest until we have the final design nailed down and ready to roll. Been 3d printing prototypes like mad the last few weeks, and getting housings sent off to be machined for thermal prototypes.

- Definitely a brighter spot and more focused beam pattern than the trail, however the width and falloff is designed to work great with the trail. Can still look beyond 90* to the left or right and have that unbroken wall of light when paired with a Trail on the bars. That was the main objective with the optic.

I'll start planning for a pre-order in a few months then! Sounds like enough interest that it'll be worthwhile.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> -
> - Very slim form factor, not long. This is not going to look like your typical self-contained bike light.
> .


Sounds good! Typical "flashlight style" layout used on most current self-contained lights is the source of their poor/limited mounting choices. Love the updates!
Mole


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## big_stoke (Jun 5, 2018)

SpeedyChix said:


> I like what I'm hearing about the helmet headlight. Sure a discount can motivate purchase but the way the handlebar unit is working ... I'd buy in early on it. Especially if it helps get it to market sooner.
> 
> Heck, my current light was 100% price, no discount. I still bought it. : )
> 
> ...


Count me in. I bought mine (trail edition) full price as well and couldn't be happier with the light. All rain all the time here in St Louis lately so only been able to get it on a frozen trail once since purchase. Plenty of rides on my normal gravel routes with this and I am blown away at the difference from my old set up (NR boost, bars and helmet).

Once the weather changes this is going to be a huge upgrade for my pre Dawn before work rides. Looking forward to adding the self contained helmet light for the ultimate trail set up.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Will the new light offer fast charge capabilities? I have not purchased the trail or road versions so I am not sure if this functionality is already part of those lights.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

cue003 said:


> Will the new light offer fast charge capabilities? I have not purchased the trail or road versions so I am not sure if this functionality is already part of those lights.


Yep, that's the plan. USB-C port with a custom battery charging circuit. So should be able to use a high-ouput wall charger for fast charge, or a typical laptop/desktop USB port.

The current Trail Edition and Road Edition use a wall charger for charging through a DC5521 connector. It'd be far too slow on it's own trying to charge 4 lithium cells.


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## cor35vet (Jul 19, 2015)

Hey @Outbound could you take a minute to answer the questions in my previous post:
https://forums.mtbr.com/lights-nigh...ussion-1055278-post13957784.html#post13957784


cor35vet said:


> Since you mentioned firmware issues, do you have a solution for firmware updates yet? It's obviously not feasible for me to ship the light from EU to US and back. I've got plenty of equipment and knowledge to flash MCUs though, if you are okay with sending compiled firmware to customers.
> And have you thought about making the firmware open source, also which MCU are you using?
> If open source firmware is not something you want to do, what about a little tool for configuring it, expose the UART pins on a pin header on the PCB and give pros a way to tweak the most important stuff?


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## Clewis9593 (Jan 5, 2019)

I’m in , love the trail and road. Sounds great.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

cor35vet said:


> Hey @Outbound could you take a minute to answer the questions in my previous post:
> https://forums.mtbr.com/lights-nigh...ussion-1055278-post13957784.html#post13957784


We are using a Silcon Labs MCU, (EFM8BB31F32G-B-QFN24R). However I am not comfortable sending out the compiled firmware to customers, mostly because it gets out of our control and secondly because I don't have the knowledge as the optical and mechanical engineer to help troubleshoot anything (nor the time) since the code was written by the EE that I contract hired. Honestly it really comes down to time. I'm already so swamped between developing this new light, tweaking marketing/ads/website for current lights, building lights, shipping lights, and working to grow the business that trying to do a small side project like that would not be on the plate anytime soon.

I know a disappointing answer (and probably sounds mean too) but maybe one day when I have nothing to do I'll get on it.


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## cor35vet (Jul 19, 2015)

Outbound said:


> I know a disappointing answer (and probably sounds mean too) but maybe one day when I have nothing to do I'll get on it.


It's fine, I would've been surprised if you happily shared the source code right away 
If I really want to mod the light I can still reverse engineer the software, have done it multiple times for other stuff. Just hope the chip isn't read protected 

Do you have a link for the road edition light head only?
Or should I order through the trail edition link and leave a comment in the order?
https://www.outboundlighting.com/product/trail-edition-lighthead/


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

cor35vet said:


> It's fine, I would've been surprised if you happily shared the source code right away
> If I really want to mod the light I can still reverse engineer the software, have done it multiple times for other stuff. Just hope the chip isn't read protected
> 
> Do you have a link for the road edition light head only?
> ...


You can leave a comment on the order for that link.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Is there an approx timeframe when you expect to setup the pre-order/pre-pay/early adopter or whatever you call it for the new light?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

I'm hoping in a few weeks. Waiting on machined magensium housing prototypes to show up so we can do some thermal load testing and some printed overmolded housings to be completed by protolabs. Going to cast some optics to get a good idea on the looks and then be able to put together some media.

Maybe you guys saw the printed 3d housing of the light on our Instagram? :eekster:


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Aluminum or plastic? Bar size compatibility? Estimated weight and price? Looks nice!
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Nice looking mount! Kind of close to one of my ideas when I was figuring out my design. Main difference was that I had the hinge at the rear and the clamp screw near the GoPro tabs. Then it kind of morphed into adding the horizontal adjustability...... The joys of CAD. So easy to keep tweaking designs.


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## jeremy_burke (Jan 28, 2018)

MRMOLE said:


> View attachment 1243317
> 
> 
> Aluminum or plastic? Bar size compatibility? Estimated weight and price? Looks nice!
> Mole


I always pick Glass filled Nylon. It takes a hit better than aluminum and doesn't get so danged cold to the touch in the winter.

Hey any plans to make a Dynamo powered light?


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

jeremy_burke said:


> I always pick Glass filled Nylon. It takes a hit better than aluminum


GF Nylon is good but tougher than aluminum? Not IME.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

jeremy_burke said:


> I always pick Glass filled Nylon. It takes a hit better than aluminum and doesn't get so danged cold to the touch in the winter.
> 
> Hey any plans to make a Dynamo powered light?


I'm a PPS-GF kind of guy when it comes to parts like these. Same plastic used for structural automotive parts so will be looking to have it molded with that. They will have pads that are adapted to different bar sizes (25, 31.8, 35) sort of like the quadlock and garmin stuff. Overmolded inserts and thermal staked holding nut on the go-pro fin side like the newest GoPro pieces so you don't have to worry about that stupid nut falling out.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

We'll be launching the new thread for the new light in about a week and a half, waiting on our optical prototypes to arrive before taking some pictures!

Meanwhile, got some interesting news to share. We were selected to lead the development on the headlight surfaces for the super cool Podbike being built in Norway!

https://www.podbike.com/a-good-bike-for-summer-winter-requires-good-bike-headlights/

Some cool info and some screenshots of the optical performance those vehicles will have using the same technology and design as the Road Edition.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Another week another hint. All my prototype pieces should be here this week. The overmolded upper frame prototype has arrived, the lens is on it's way and the magneisum lower is on it's way too.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Another week another hint. All my prototype pieces should be here this week. The overmolded upper frame prototype has arrived, the lens is on it's way and the magneisum lower is on it's way too.
> 
> View attachment 1245682


Sweet. For reference, what Bontrager helmet model is that?

Looking great so far.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

It looks nice but why not make it even lower profile so the light head almost sits flush to the helmet
One of my pet peeves with helmet lights is worrying about catching it in stuff.

I dont see any reason it needs to sit what appears to be 2-3" above the helmet.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

mestapho said:


> It looks nice but why not make it even lower profile so the light head almost sits flush to the helmet
> One of my pet peeves with helmet lights is worrying about catching it in stuff.
> 
> I dont see any reason it needs to sit what appears to be 2-3" above the helmet.


This would make me more likely to try a self contained helmet light. I have a very tight mounting setup for my little Gloworm helmet light, I hate catching vines and moss with my head. Maybe some sort of adjustable mount location, beyond what GoPro style mounts already provide in adjustability, to allow the light to be mounted very tight to helmets that can accommodate it. Or just a flip-flop GoPro adapter for a high/low option?

I would also be curious if it is possible to add a battery port to make running it with an external battery an option for long rides?


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

Something like this


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

mestapho said:


> .....I dont see any reason it needs to sit what appears to be 2-3" above the helmet.





Velodonata said:


> This would make me more likely to try a self contained helmet light. I have a very tight mounting setup for my little Gloworm helmet light, I hate catching vines and moss with my head. Maybe some sort of adjustable mount location, beyond what GoPro style mounts already provide in adjustability, to allow the light to be mounted very tight to helmets that can accommodate it. Or just a flip-flop GoPro adapter for a high/low option?





mestapho said:


> Something like this


I'm with these comments. Early in my night riding days, I caught a high mounted light on a tree branch. No fun. I like and use very low mounting for my helmet lights.

Low mounting must not be a concern for most folks though. I sell way, way more standard GoPro adapters than the LoPro version. I also did the LoPro adapter for Ituo lights in a flip/flop style so it could be low or extra low. Most pics I've seen of folks using them do not have them in the extra low position.

Having a low option on this new Outbound light would appeal to some users, but I'd guess not enough to warrant the extra work to provide it. Low mounting makes a light not work with some helmets that have integral GoPro mounts. They typically are at the very top of the helmet and won't allow some lights with low mounting to be aimed down far enough.

There may be some issue with tool design for casting the housing that makes a low mounting less manufacturable. On my GoPro adapters there is extra machining with a smallish tool that must be done to make it work. That adds time which is why they cost more despite using a smaller piece of raw material.

Outbound has some lofty specification and performance goals for this new light. Even with it's somewhat high profile (not as high as many other helmet lights though) if it hits most of the performance and specification goals, it will be a very nice light.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Ituo makes a nice low profile Gopro helmet mount but not sure if they're avaiolable as an individual item.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Vancbiker said:


> Low mounting must not be a concern for most folks though. I sell way, way more standard GoPro adapters than the LoPro version. I also did the LoPro adapter for Ituo lights in a flip/flop style so it could be low or extra low. Most pics I've seen of folks using them do not have them in the extra low position.


Does this look better? Do you have the lopro option for all lights?


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> Does this look better? Do you have the lopro option for all lights?
> 
> View attachment 1245735


Yep. Was gonna ask you if the extra low position worked with that Ituo mount.

The LoPro adapter is available for....

all the Ituo XP series
Gemini Duo 
Yinding 
Solarstorm X2 and X3

There has not been enough demand for me to design and build LoPro versions for any other lights. I have sold a small number of undrilled LoPro adapters so the buyers could modify as needed to fit their particular light.

This kind of circles back to Outbound's thread and why I posted earlier that while some users would appreciate a lower profile mounting, I don't see it being anywhere near a majority. I think the mounting design Outbound posted earlier for his new self-contained light will satisfy most potential buyers.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*@ Outbound* : I'm still waiting for that mountain bike light of yours to offer a more NW beam tint. That said gotta have a remote, wired or otherwise as well. If the Raveman lights were offered in NW I might not have posted this comment but than again I tend to favor bar lamps with separate battery packs over self contained lamps when I MTB.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Anyone interested in an OB Trail Edition with a bit of scuffing on the top from the bike being flipped over? Probably 30h of use. I ride desert and a lot of its beam is being lost, so I got the road edition on the bars and a traditional spot beam on the helmet to get the throw I need for trail riding. Figure someone who rides in dense canopy will enjoy riding terrain in which things are possibly brighter than it is during the day, with this OB Trail Ed.

I also got a L&M Taz 2000 still fresh in package, which I chose the OB Road over (for run time). Doubt anyone would want it though, cause it's 290 MSRP. More of a pocketable commuter light.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Vancbiker said:


> I'm with these comments. Early in my night riding days, I caught a high mounted light on a tree branch. No fun. I like and use very low mounting for my helmet lights.
> 
> Low mounting must not be a concern for most folks though. I sell way, way more standard GoPro adapters than the LoPro version. I also did the LoPro adapter for Ituo lights in a flip/flop style so it could be low or extra low. Most pics I've seen of folks using them do not have them in the extra low position.
> 
> ...


You almost hit the nail on the head. It's a challenge for manufacturing with the way the case is developed, plus for those that have mounts right on the top of the helmet it is tougher to aim. However I will see what we can do to get it a little lower profile. It's an enormous difference over the primary target competitor, the NR Lumina and L&M Urban. This is why I like leaking some info and get some feedback quick before we commit to tooling.

I've got some ideas now on how to keep the form factor yet get that lower profile. This light also has the goal of being extremely high quality feeling and durable. Overmolded features to make it IP67 rated, as well as feeling like a GoPro Hero 7 in terms of quality, just not as heavy.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cat-man-do said:


> *@ Outbound* : I'm still waiting for that mountain bike light of yours to offer a more NW beam tint. That said gotta have a remote, wired or otherwise as well. If the Raveman lights were offered in NW I might not have posted this comment but than again I tend to favor bar lamps with separate battery packs over self contained lamps when I MTB.


Unfortunately won't be able to offer a whiter light anytime soon. A remote is something that we are also looking into. Something a little different from what others are doing too, but that's still early on.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Outbound said:


> Unfortunately *won't be able to offer a whiter light anytime soon.* A remote is something that we are also looking into. Something a little different from what others are doing too, but that's still early on.


Uh...that wasn't what I was asking about. NW or Neutral White is less white than what you are using. Not sure if the LED array you use comes in any other tint but if it did there is a market for NW MTB lights. Specifically, something in the 4500K range would be awesome. Got to have remotes.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

- Road edition's cutoff








- I'm the one fooling around in the back








- my personal light carpet (XP3 is giving me that little circle beyond the OB Road Ed)

Itou's tint is a bit yellower's than OB's, but seems to mix well for my needs. Looks like OB's personal promise that they gave me in their chat, that it would be the last light I buy, fell through. Feeling better about this newer setup, compared to the DH package.

Honestly, the XP3 would probably be close to enough by itself, but I'm comparing ~1200 lumen lights to a 2300 lumen one:


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cat-man-do said:


> Uh...that wasn't what I was asking about. NW or Neutral White is less white than what you are using. Not sure if the LED array you use comes in any other tint but if it did there is a market for NW MTB lights. Specifically, something in the 4500K range would be awesome. Got to have remotes.


Reason I thought was wanting whiter is that these are warmer than lights from L&M, B&M, and the typical cheaper stuff. For example this is the B&M Ixon at the same distance from the wall as the road edition:








View attachment 1245998


The Altilon starts out on the lower end of the 5000k spectrum (closer to cool white), and then when it passes the reflector and through the lens it gets knocked down to the mid 4000's (closer to warm white). But the Altilon chip itself doesn't get any warmer since it's automotive qualified, so won't be able to go any warmer either.

Changing up chips for the new light, so will have a wider spread of stuff to choose frome, but will still be looking to match the tint of the Trail so that it's seamless with existing lights.


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## woodyak (Jan 20, 2004)

Subscribing to this thread for the self-contained light data. Been a big fan of the Exposure Diablo but their QA has been falling behind a bit with the past few lights and the pricing is no longer competitive.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

woodyak said:


> Subscribing to this thread for the self-contained light data. Been a big fan of the Exposure Diablo but their QA has been falling behind a bit with the past few lights and the pricing is no longer competitive.


I agree on the Exposure lights. The other big dawg is the Lupine lights. They are outstanding as well but sickly expensive.


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## woodyak (Jan 20, 2004)

woodyak said:


> Subscribing to this thread for the self-contained light data. Been a big fan of the Exposure Diablo but their QA has been falling behind a bit with the past few lights and the pricing is no longer competitive.


It sounds like OL is going in the right direction but I'll put in some wishlist items:
- Keep it simple. No tap crap, no auto-dimming, no crazy programmable crap. No crazy button sequence to make it turn on or off.
- Optimized for 2+ hour burn time. 
- 2 settings. High and Low w/o low being as low as mechanically possible.
- Some sort of battery meter
- Ability to plug in an external battery as a just in case.


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## jeremy_burke (Jan 28, 2018)

woodyak said:


> It sounds like OL is going in the right direction but I'll put in some wishlist items:
> - Keep it simple. No tap crap, no auto-dimming, no crazy programmable crap. No crazy button sequence to make it turn on or off.
> - Optimized for 2+ hour burn time.
> - 2 settings. High and Low w/o low being as low as mechanically possible.
> ...


My wish list is even simpler 
I want good high and low beam like a car with a simple switch or remote next to my hand grips to accomplish this. Why do I have to cycle through 97 modes to get to $&@?! Modes that are actually useful. High low just like a car it isn't hard.

Edit: this isn't a complaint with your light (I don't own one yet) it's just with every light I have tried.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> The Altilon starts out on the lower end of the 5000k spectrum (closer to cool white), and then when it passes the reflector and through the lens it gets knocked down to the mid 4000's (closer to warm white). But the Altilon chip itself doesn't get any warmer since it's automotive qualified, so won't be able to go any warmer either.
> 
> Changing up chips for the new light, so will have a wider spread of stuff to choose frome, but will still be looking to match the tint of the Trail so that it's seamless with existing lights.


For me the smooth/even beam coverage you get with the OB lights improves overall visibility as does using a warmer tint but in a different way. I do really like NW tint for solo off-road riding but for riding in groups and anything paved I think the tint of your current lights is a better compromise. That said think the new light should as close as possible match the emitter tint of your other lights. Thanks for the updates. New light design looking good so far!
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Alright took your advice and modified the mount location a bit. Doesn't look too bad! :thumbsup:









The prototypes that will be used for functional testing will be of the older design. They have been machined from magnesium to test for thermal loads to best simulate the actual die cast material. Those should be arriving in a few days.

Might notice another feature, the hood. This was requested from some people based on some feedback of the previous lights. Not really necessary for helmet mounting, but if people mount it on their handlebars, it will be nice to keep the light out of their eyes when climbing.


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

jeremy_burke said:


> My wish list is even simpler
> I want good high and low beam like a car with a simple switch or remote next to my hand grips to accomplish this. Why do I have to cycle through 97 modes to get to $&@?! Modes that are actually useful. High low just like a car it isn't hard.
> 
> Edit: this isn't a complaint with your light (I don't own one yet) it's just with every light I have tried.


I agree with this. I pretty much want full output or low output. I generally don't use the mid-brightness modes.

I have had mixed opinions on a remote. This past fall/winter was my first real night riding season and now I get it. I think a wireless remote that can control the bar light and helmet light simultaneously would be pretty useful.


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## jeremy_burke (Jan 28, 2018)

Has it been a week and a half yet? I wanna see that light.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Fo a helmet light, I like 3 levels. Low and High for riding, and an extra low that requires some extra action to enable, in other words, not part of the normal switching from low to high and back to low. The extra low level is useful for light to fix a mechanical or flat or read the map. IME, a low level that is good for riding is too bright for fixing or map reading.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

jeremy_burke said:


> My wish list is even simpler
> *I want good high and low beam like a car with a simple switch or remote next to my hand grips to accomplish this.* Why do I have to cycle through 97 modes to get to $&@?! Modes that are actually useful. *High low just like a car it isn't hard*.
> 
> Edit: this isn't a complaint with your light (I don't own one yet) it's just with every light I have tried.


Even better ( for a road version ) would be just two modes as you suggest but that the two modes be user programmable so you have the exact output you want for both modes. The advantage of this is that ( for longer rides ) you can choose to use outputs that can extend run time.


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## jeremy_burke (Jan 28, 2018)

Cat-man-do said:


> Even better ( for a road version ) would be just two modes as you suggest but that the two modes be user programmable so you have the exact output you want for both modes. The advantage of this is that ( for longer rides ) you can choose to use outputs that can extend run time.


I like this idea. Although to be honest I really only need one programmable and one high beam (so bright it melts the road). Couple that with a good easy to operate helmet light for when I hit the gravel/double track, which I do as mush as possible. Crunchy roads are the best roads.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

jeremy_burke said:


> I like this idea. Although to be honest I really only need one programmable and one high beam *(so bright it melts the road).* Couple that with a good easy to operate helmet light for when I hit the gravel/double track, which I do as mush as possible. Crunchy roads are the best roads.


Your not going to get that (so bright it melts the road) from any of the current OB lights and doubtful from the new (lower powered) self-contained light they're currently working on. Beam pattern and best visibility from the light they produce is more what these light are about. Cat-man-do proposed UI works for me too.
Mole


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## jeremy_burke (Jan 28, 2018)

MRMOLE said:


> Your not going to get that (so bright it melts the road) from any of the current OB lights and doubtful from the new (lower powered) self-contained light they're currently working on. Beam pattern and best visibility from the light they produce is more what these light are about. Cat-man-do proposed UI works for me too.
> Mole


I know, please don't ever take me too seriously. I'm prone to hyperbole.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Alrighty guys, got all our prototype lenses, machined magneisum lower, and overmolded printed uppers in today. I'm not terribly thrilled with the overmold print quality, but I knew it wasn't going to be production spec. However very happy with the prototype optics and it's going to be great to be able to really test the optics quick (10 day turnaround) and make any tweaks before we commit to tooling.

Going to give one more teaser of the optic before I start a new thread for the new light once we have some pictures of the light lit up and powered on next week!

The optic on the top is printed in "clear" on my 3d printer, can tell what a different a proper prototype can make.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

So I’m guessing you’re using a different led than the bar lights.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

mestapho said:


> So I'm guessing you're using a different led than the bar lights.


Yep, the Trail and Road Edition use an Altilon 1x5 chip which is very lumen dense, in this light we are going with 6 individual LED's that will either be Lumiled FX Plus chips or CREE XQ-E High Intensity. I'll explain why in more detail in the new thread.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

I like the "joined" optics. I did a "joined" reflector light several years ago with 20mm reflectors and Cree XPG emitters. It made a really nice beam and was my goto helmet light for ~3 years.









Is the texturing (presumably for beam smoothing) on your optic on the face side? I have found that texture on the face can collect mud that is hard to clean out mid-ride. Prefer a smooth face.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Vancbiker said:


> I like the "joined" optics. I did a "joined" reflector light several years ago with 20mm reflectors and Cree XPG emitters. It made a really nice beam and was my goto helmet light for ~3 years.
> 
> View attachment 1246583
> 
> ...


Yep, joined in this particular case was mostly to improve the asthetic and get it a bit more compact. The actual TIR's are shaped slightly different on each individual one to shape the beam pattern so that it has the stronger hotspot, soft falloff to the side, and the light carpet that we are known for.

The facets on the front are indeed for further beam shaping both in a horizontal and a vertical fashion. They are quite small and short, but radiiused so that getting mud off is no problem, that was something I had factored into the design. Silicone optics again since these are similar to the Focal lights where the lens forms the seal.


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

Man if this has the throw and spot of my BT-20 with spots you’ll be taking my money again.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Outbound said:


> .....The actual TIR's are shaped slightly different on each individual one to shape the beam pattern so that it has the stronger hotspot, soft falloff to the side, and the light carpet that we are known for.


That is awesome. So cool that you have design tools and experience that allows you do this!



Outbound said:


> The facets on the front are indeed for further beam shaping both in a horizontal and a vertical fashion. They are quite small and short, but radiiused so that getting mud off is no problem, that was something I had factored into the design. Silicone optics again since these are similar to the Focal lights where the lens forms the seal.


Again, a really nice touch. The optic I had with texture on the front basically had numerous "bumps" that met the front surface at a sharp vertex. After wiping with a glove, a little ring of mud would sit in that vertex much to the detriment of the beam throw and output.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Okay, 2nd major night ride for new setup:

Helmet: Itou Wiz XP3
Bar: OB Road Ed

Compared to old setup

Helmet: OB Road Ed
Bar: OB Trail Ed

Running with that thought that I believed the Itou was good enough for desert conditions to be the only light I need, I relied on it a bit more tonight. I discovered its primary setback: when it runs out of juice, it just suddenly cuts out. OB has legendary run time in comparison. I do a 5 PM to 10 PM ride every Thursday, so I really need that run time. With battery conservation habits, such as turning it off at stops, low on climbs, and only high on fast descents, it cut out on me about 15 minutes before the end of my ride today.


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## big_stoke (Jun 5, 2018)

Outbound said:


> Alrighty guys, got all our prototype lenses, machined magneisum lower, and overmolded printed uppers in today. I'm not terribly thrilled with the overmold print quality, but I knew it wasn't going to be production spec. However very happy with the prototype optics and it's going to be great to be able to really test the optics quick (10 day turnaround) and make any tweaks before we commit to tooling.
> 
> Going to give one more teaser of the optic before I start a new thread for the new light once we have some pictures of the light lit up and powered on next week!
> 
> ...


Will we be seeing a prototype in action at the Quail Ridge Rampage this Saturday?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

big_stoke said:


> Will we be seeing a prototype in action at the Quail Ridge Rampage this Saturday?


Unfortunately no. The initial prototype is heading to AZ for my electrical engineer to play with and get the driver testing started. There will be lots of demos of the Trail Edition however at Quail!


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

ninjichor said:


> Okay, 2nd major night ride for new setup:
> 
> Helmet: Itou Wiz XP3
> Bar: OB Road Ed
> ...


Ninjichor,

What size battery pack are you using for the XP3 on your helmet? Somehow I'm imagining you've got a two cell on the back, in any case I doubt you have it attached in any way to the original 4-cell Ituo pack? Because I found the run time on mine was only 90 minutes of mixed use despite the manufacturers claim of over two hours on High alone. In any case, if you can stand running the cable to your jersey or jacket chest pocket, Kaidoman's 4-cell flat pack might be an acceptable solution for you.

http://kaidomain.com/bike-lights-an...18650B-Rechargeable-18650-Li-ion-Battery-Pack

I was amazed when I first slipped mine into my Docker's flap pocket and didn't feel the weight at all.

My own personal fantasy right now is a 4-cell self contained light with dual mounts that could fasten to a handlebar stem and whose angle could be adjusted by some kind of locking ratchet mechanism in the rear. Since the Outbound Trail/Road reflector lens is so huge am guessing there'd be room for four cells - or maybe even six? - behind its footprint.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

@andychrist

I'm using the original 4-cell Itou pack. I estimate 2.5h* of mixed used. I used to run the OB with an extension to my pack, but I strap the Itou's battery to the back of my helmet (TLD Stage). My neck doesn't mind the extra weight and the helmet doesn't shift its fit around with it there.

* this is assuming I started using it at 7 PM, it cut out just before 10 PM (finished ride at 10:19 to be exact), and I had it off maybe 30 minutes worth in between.

I wasn't so stingy with the OB's use, knowing it has that 1-h reserve function programmed in. I just needed more throw and I rarely ever use "high" on the OB (usually just set-and-forget with its "Adaptive" slowly-dimming mode).


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

andychrist said:


> My own personal fantasy right now is a 4-cell self contained light with dual mounts that could fasten to a handlebar stem and whose angle could be adjusted by some kind of locking ratchet mechanism in the rear. Since the Outbound Trail/Road reflector lens is so huge am guessing there'd be room for four cells - or maybe even six? - behind its footprint.


Could be, might be. With the upcoming 21700 cells starting to become more mainstream certainly hope to start incorporating those in the future. But any changes to the Trail or Road edition like that would still easily be a year or more away. Currently all focus is on the smaller self contained light to compete with the Lumina and Urban.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Wow that would be great, OB! Because in my decade and a half of night riding, have found connector cables to be the weakest link in any setup— experienced countless problems/failures. Magicshine style waterproof “pop” connectors tend to freeze in the cold and become impossible to separate at the end of a ride — not to mention they can break electrical contact even during the course of the event while still remaining stuck together, necessitating the user to twist the sockets back and forth until the lamp’s charge indicator comes back on. Screw connectors IIRC are not so bad in that regard but like the Magicshines their internal wiring can often sever at the junction with the molded sockets or where soldered either to the batteries or even lamp if there is not proper stress relief (two out of three of my KD six-cell packs have died that way and the third hasn’t far to go) plus over time the electrical contacts themselves can wear down to nubbins. Have recently received a bike lamp that came with a faulty battery cable fresh out of the box and the replacement’s cell pack only had about a third of the run time it was supposed to have. Then again the self contained light ordered from the same company immediately self drained its internal cells and then would not recharge over the built in Micro USB. But at least that was just a problem with the manufacture of the circuit board, and doesn’t represent the same kind of common vulnerability as with connector cables... or so I hope.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing your new model upon completion.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> With the upcoming 21700 cells starting to become more mainstream certainly hope to start incorporating those in the future. .


Are 21700's a possible power source for the new self-contained light?



> Currently all focus is on the smaller self contained light to compete with the Lumina and Urban


I don't see much of a problem with you making a better light than your Lumina/Urban target competition but rather overcoming their brand name recognition as your major hurdle. Even tougher if either of those lights do a 21700 upgrade.
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> Are 21700's a possible power source for the new self-contained light?
> 
> I don't see much of a problem with you making a better light than your Lumina/Urban target competition but rather overcoming their brand name recognition as your major hurdle. Even tougher if either of those lights do a 21700 upgrade.
> Mole


21700 is indeed a potential power source, although we've been moving down the road towards 18650 mostly because it's lighter and cheaper to get high quality cells. To get a high quality 21700 would cost twice as much and add an extra 20g or so in weight.

The dimensional change isn't too bad, can be fit in the current design with a little massaging, but my main concern has usually been weight. We'll be able to exceed the runtime of the name brands with the current optic and LED design without having to resort to the heavy throttling that self contained lights are known for.

Though you do bring up a good point, that it's only a matter of time before the others jump on the 21700 bandwagon, which then they might be able to match the runtime of the new light... But it'll still be 50-80g heavier than ours.

My main design goals were: lightweight, great optics, lower price point, and at least two hours solid burn time with minimal throttling over time, could extend it even further with a similar adaptive strategy as the focal. 21700 is an easy way to hit that burn time, but at the expense of weight and cost... Tradeoffs....


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## jeremy_burke (Jan 28, 2018)

Is it time yet? Can I pre-order now?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

jeremy_burke said:


> Is it time yet? Can I pre-order now?


Glad you are getting amped. 

However I decided to push back the pre-order a few weeks. We got the prototypes, the optics look amazing and perform as simulated, but decided to tweak it, get a little more punch, pull in the width a bit and massaged the optic a little more. So another round of protos required.

Also getting more production-looking prototypes of the overmolded parts with the screen printed logos so that it will be more clear what you are getting. Only get one chance to really impress, so I want to make sure we impress.


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## phalkon30 (Jan 17, 2009)

As a quality manager that deals with post production engineering changes constantly, good for you!


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Outbound said:


> Glad you are getting amped.
> 
> However I decided to push back the pre-order a few weeks. We got the prototypes, the optics look amazing and perform as simulated, but decided to tweak it, get a little more punch, pull in the width a bit and massaged the optic a little more. So another round of protos required....


This entire design process is fascinating.
Who is able to provide quick optical prototypes?
Do you do the optic design/simulation yourself?

Thanks,
-F


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Fleas said:


> This entire design process is fascinating.
> Who is able to provide quick optical prototypes?
> Do you do the optic design/simulation yourself?
> 
> ...


There is a prototyping company overseas that specializes in optical design work. They machine pieces of solid acrylic, polish them to the specs required, then create a silicone mold to create the silicone versions of the optic. The index of refraction is slightly different, but close enough that can judge the production optic off of it.

I do indeed do all the optical design and simulation myself. I use a software package called Lucidshape which is used in automotive lighting design. One of those really niche pieces of software that costs a fortune, but with it combined with my years of optical design experience in the automotive space, is our technological advantage over other lights in this space.

Seeing that no one else in the industry was taking lighting seriously beyond more lumens in off-the-shelf reflectors was why I decided to take the leap and start this company.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Outbound said:


> There is a prototyping company overseas that specializes in optical design work. They machine pieces of solid acrylic, polish them to the specs required, then create a silicone mold to create the silicone versions of the optic. The index of refraction is slightly different, but close enough that can judge the production optic off of it.
> 
> I do indeed do all the optical design and simulation myself. I use a software package called Lucidshape which is used in automotive lighting design. One of those really niche pieces of software that costs a fortune, but with it combined with my years of optical design experience in the automotive space, is our technological advantage over other lights in this space.
> 
> Seeing that no one else in the industry was taking lighting seriously beyond more lumens in off-the-shelf reflectors was why I decided to take the leap and start this company.


Wow. You are the real deal. Thanks!

-F


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Alrighty, not the update you guys probably reallllyyyy wanted. But it's related to the current Focal Series, namely the Road Edition.

I was answering at least 1-2 questions a week about how to mount the Road edition underneath a computer mount. I often would point to some GoPro C-extensions, or some people got clever with other GoPro accessories.

I did some designing, and came up with this part. Surprisingly cheap enough to 3d print in mass to sell at a reasonable price. Not going to make any money on this mount, but an item to sell at cost in order to help convince more buyers to mount properly to their bike.

Printed using SLS in a very durable Nylon material, this is not your typical FDM print. Instead this is very strong and will last in even the hardest of crashes. Because 3D printing isn't bound by the laws of plastic production, such as slides, drafts, etc. can have a little more design freedom, which I did.

First production run of 30 prints will arrive in about 2 weeks and be live on the site to purchase soon for around $20.


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## ZenkiS14 (Aug 25, 2008)

Yep, that's awesome! Nice work Matt!

Love the extra detail in the machining to save weight. This is a well designed piece!


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Outbound said:


> .......I did some designing, and came up with this part. ......


We should have talked before you did those......


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

This is a random observation, but as an owner of 2 trail edition lights with the original larger cases, I would absolutely buy a new foam insert that would let me keep my trail edition lamp and the upcoming headlamp in the same case.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Outbound said:


> View attachment 1249219


An excellent idea but....You really think the Garmin mount is sturdy enough to handle the extra weight? Really, I mean also the fact that the Garmin mount is off-set and the weight of the lamp head is quite heavy I would think the lamp head would be bobbing up and down all over the place. Add to that the extra extension toward the front holding more weight I would tend to think would be problematic. Of course if this works forget everything I just said.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cat-man-do said:


> An excellent idea but....You really think the Garmin mount is sturdy enough to handle the extra weight? Really, I mean also the fact that the Garmin mount is off-set and the weight of the lamp head is quite heavy I would think the lamp head would be bobbing up and down all over the place. Add to that the extra extension toward the front holding more weight I would tend to think would be problematic. Of course if this works forget everything I just said.


The lamphead is only 100g. For reference a GoPro Hero is 160g with the frame, a Lumina is 140g with the gopro mount, an L&M urban is almost as much too. So as long as it's tightened down good I don't think it should be too much of a problem even though it's cantilevered out a bit.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> An excellent idea but....You really think the Garmin mount is sturdy enough to handle the extra weight?.....


If it isn't, the K-Edge out front style would be. It's aluminum and very nicely designed and manufactured.


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

@Outbound is Nate Hills running your lights? I just saw a screenshot of his latest Follow Cam Friday and it looks like a pair of your lights on the bars. Are you promoting this? Seems like it could get you some good exposure.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Yep! He's running the downhill kit and had an amazing time on the Hangover trail. Some of those sections are intense and even I was impressed the bar mount stayed rock solid!


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

He posted a bit on the blog on his website about it with a link to Outbounds site: https://www.natehills.com/blog

-Garry


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Watching that video reminded me of how much I miss riding at Sedona. Been about 7 years since I was last there. Too long!

On Topic.. The video did a nice job capturing the beam characteristic of the Outbound light.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Vancbiker said:


> If it isn't, the K-Edge out front style would be. It's aluminum and very nicely designed and manufactured.


Yeah but even the K-Edge I don't think was designed to support that much weight. Keep in mind that if you add the additional extension for the OB lamp that it's going to extend out even farther and add more leverage for more ( possible) movement. Not saying it wouldn't work but I tend to be skeptical about such things.

Now about that video; Scared the hell out of me just to watch it. One little slip up on some of those sections and you end up rolling down the side of a mountain butte that is entirely rock. I actually had something like that happen once and it wasn't fun. I wouldn't even try something like that now without a good deal of body armor. ( knee/shins, forearms/elbows and shoulders if I can find something not too uncomfortable ). 
I did find it odd that the guy with the video was using two lights and no one seemed to be using a helmet lamp .

The guy in front must of been very familiar with the trail because he seem to know all the best lines. Has to be weird riding something like that at night because much of the trail is just riding through terrain that is purely rock with very little vegetation. At times it would be hard to tell what direction the trail is going. I did notice though that I thought I saw white painted lines on some of the rock that likely indicated just where the trail was going. Got to be hard to see those lines though at night so would be very helpful if you knew the trail very well before hand. I always wanted to ride in Arizona but obviously much of that stuff would be beyond my physical ability health wise / age wise now.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Gotta remember these are professional riders who live and breathe that area. 

Nate did tell me that he felt comfortable with only one light, but the camera was happier with two, and given that his videos are his livelihood he chose to go with what looks best on camera. 

He has two of the downhill packages, I believe that the rider in front wanted a helmet light without the cord going into the backpack so used what he already had, but had a trail edition on the bars. Nate had the trail on the bars and a road on the helmet, then put the extra road light next to the trail to help with the camera lighting.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Cat-man-do said:


> Yeah but even the K-Edge I don't think was designed to support that much weight. Keep in mind that if you add the additional extension for the OB lamp that it's going to extend out even farther and add more leverage for more ( possible) movement. Not saying it wouldn't work but I tend to be skeptical about such things.


I understand being a bit skeptical, but having worked with some of the K-Edge stuff with GPS and dynamo light below, I can assure that it will hold the weigh and do it with minimal to no movement. The extended mount that Outbound is having printed may add some flex though. An aluminum extension like in the picture works really well. I have a few customers with this setup on their gravel bikes and very favorable reports.











Cat-man-do said:


> Now about that video; Scared the hell out of me just to watch it. One little slip up on some of those sections and you end up rolling down the side of a mountain butte that is entirely rock.....
> 
> ...I did notice though that I thought I saw white painted lines on some of the rock that likely indicated just where the trail was going. Got to be hard to see those lines though at night so would be very helpful if you knew the trail very well before hand. I always wanted to ride in Arizona but obviously much of that stuff would be beyond my physical ability health wise / age wise now.


There are areas with some crazy exposure for sure. On the plus side though, the traction is incredible. One can ride some angles with perfect grip that you would just slide off in any other surface. I've ridden a few of the spots they showed in the video, and I'm not ashamed to say there were some I walked.

The painted trail marks are pretty common on the rock surface trails in Arizona and Utah. In that wide open country I would give up my preference for a narrow spot type beam and go with a wider beam. Easier to spot those paint marks where the trail turns with a wide beam. I really liked seeing how the Outbound light performed on that terrain. Perfect application.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Vancbiker said:


> I understand being a bit skeptical, but having worked with some of the K-Edge stuff with GPS and dynamo light below, I can assure that it will hold the weigh and do it with minimal to no movement. The extended mount that Outbound is having printed may add some flex though. An aluminum extension like in the picture works really well. I have a few customers with this setup on their gravel bikes and very favorable reports.
> 
> View attachment 1250009
> 
> .


Even using these plastic Gloworm mounts has provided a stable/reliable mounting system for my OB lights. I think my main concern using one of those Garmin/K-edge style mounts would be how it would affect access to the control button of the light.











> There are areas with some crazy exposure for sure. On the plus side though, the traction is incredible. One can ride some angles with perfect grip that you would just slide off in any other surface. I've ridden a few of the spots they showed in the video, and I'm not ashamed to say there were some I walked.
> 
> The painted trail marks are pretty common on the rock surface trails in Arizona and Utah. In that wide open country I would give up my preference for a narrow spot type beam and go with a wider beam. Easier to spot those paint marks where the trail turns with a wide beam. I really liked seeing how the Outbound light performed on that terrain. Perfect application


Loved the video and how it showed off the beam pattern of the light in an environment where it was very useful. As the primary custodian single parent most of my adult life my trail choices tended to be a bit more conservative. Lots of nice/fun trails at the bottom of those rock formations. Painted trail marking lines usually meant those were the trails I explored in hiking boots. Traction is definitely awesome on the rock though.
Mole


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## farfromovin (Apr 18, 2009)

Outbound said:


> Gotta remember these are professional riders who live and breathe that area.
> 
> Nate did tell me that he felt comfortable with only one light, but the camera was happier with two, and given that his videos are his livelihood he chose to go with what looks best on camera.
> 
> He has two of the downhill packages, I believe that the rider in front wanted a helmet light without the cord going into the backpack so used what he already had, but had a trail edition on the bars. Nate had the trail on the bars and a road on the helmet, then put the extra road light next to the trail to help with the camera lighting.


Good job pairing up with Nate, help grow your business. Get some more youtubers on your lights and you're gonna need to start hiring staff!


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

Cool video, Nate is the real deal. Love watching his videos when he is on our local trails in the Denver Front Range. Really makes you feel not worthy.

Trying to provide another point of view but probably just me, but no thanks on the cut off beam pattern for trail riding. Street/Road, yeah sure. Reminds of watching a video when the camera is pointed down to far and you try to keep looking up to pull the camera angle up. This was a trail that was pretty much void of overhanging trees/obstacles and overhanging obstacles but I still felt like something was going to jump out of the darkness above the first riders rear wheel any moment. I need a beam pattern that lights up the entire riding area including above me a bit.









****


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

When the road version is used on the head you aim it up so the cutoff line isn't noticeable in your field of view. Since it's mounted firmly on the head it's interesting how then your brain doesn't even notice it after a few minutes, but you aren't wasting light in the trees.

I wouldn't have suggested to put a road light on the bars in a place like Hangover, but for the camera more light was better.


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

Here is another recent night riding video from another popular Youtuber -






*****


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Vancbiker said:


> I understand being a bit skeptical, but having worked with some of the K-Edge stuff with GPS and dynamo light below, I can assure that it will hold the weigh and do it with minimal to no movement. The extended mount that Outbound is having printed may add some flex though. An aluminum extension like in the picture works really well. I have a few customers with this setup on their gravel bikes and very favorable reports.
> 
> There are areas with some crazy exposure for sure. On the plus side though, the traction is incredible. One can ride some angles with perfect grip that you would just slide off in any other surface. I've ridden a few of the spots they showed in the video, and I'm not ashamed to say there were some I walked.
> 
> The painted trail marks are pretty common on the rock surface trails in Arizona and Utah. In that wide open country I would give up my preference for a narrow spot type beam and go with a wider beam. Easier to spot those paint marks where the trail turns with a wide beam. I really liked seeing how the Outbound light performed on that terrain. Perfect application.


Cool. Glad to hear this is working. I'm also glad you mentioned about the terrain being super grippy. I did have to wonder when I saw some of those guys riding on angles that otherwise would be impossible on normal dirt terrain. That said, like you I would be one of the ones to walk anything that just looked too dangerous. I learned a long time ago not to venture beyond my perceived skill level. One of my most favorite quotes comes from an old "Dirty Harry" movie ( Clint Eastwood )...In the movie, said to a villain Harry is about to take out, _"A man's got to know his limitations"_. ( Can't remember the exact scene but I remember the quote ) Anyway, I found that statement to have a lot of REAL LIFE application. 

edit; Youtube clip of the movie scene


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## jeremy_burke (Jan 28, 2018)

Is it time to share new things yet?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

It's been dropped!

https://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/outbound-lighting-hangover-discussion-1103700.html


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

i do have a question regarding the "getting home" mode: Is this mode voltage controlled? So could i "switch off" this mode by using a 11.1 V (3s configuration) li-ion battery instead of 7.4V (2s configuration), since the lamp can manage up to 14 V input?


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

What's it mean when the light's intensity is going from high to med repeatedly (ramps the intensity up and down between intensity settings over 1-2 secs) and it shows 3 green bars in the middle? I had this mode pop up after having the light in storage for over a month, but it went away after restarting the light.

I'm guessing it's the slow pulse daytime running light mode? Maybe it was clumsy with turning it on and did a triple tap to access it? Honestly didn't know about it until I did a ctrl-F for pulse on this thread.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

Edit: understand former post wrongly. Post could be deleted


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Nah, I mean the light's intensity dimmed and brightened rhythmically after turning it on, without touching it to change settings. It was gradually increasing and decreasing brightness at a rate similar to breathing at rest.

Never knew there was a Go Home mode. Thought it just aggressively enforced lower brightness modes at low battery life to get long run time.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

ninjichor said:


> Nah, I mean the light's intensity dimmed and brightened rhythmically after turning it on, without touching it to change settings. It was gradually increasing and decreasing brightness at a rate similar to breathing at rest.
> 
> Never knew there was a Go Home mode. Thought it just aggressively enforced lower brightness modes at low battery life to get long run time.


Ok, never had this. only accidentally switched to flashing mode. there are as well 3 bars in the middle. but that mode is on/off. maybe you found an easter egg?

I think this enforcement of lower brightness mode is a part of the get home mode (i think that reduction in brightness happens once you reach 25% runtime left in the choosen mode). Never managed to override it completely, it is pretty insistent.

Therefore i asked whether a 3s/11.1 V Battery might in fact deactivate this mode?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

MRMOLE said:


> I haven't seen anyone elso mention this but on some of my longer rides I'm not able to access the higher modes for the last portion of the ride. Once battery level goes down to 3 lights the second to the lowest mode is as high as the light will stay at and once down to 2 lights the lowest mode. Is this the way it's supposed to work? Not an issue when using the road version since I normally run it at the second to lowest mode anyway but it does limit the trail as I prefer using the higher modes. I'd been using older Ituo batteries for mounting reasons and had just assumed they were getting weaker and causing this but finally got around to meter testing using the newer OB battery and a fairly new 8400 M-tiger 6 cell battery I have. Running in the highest mode with the OB battery fan cooled in my kitchen the light lasted 70 min. till it stepped down to the second from lowest mode and 2:20 down to the lowest mode. Same test with the 6 cell battery netted 1:50 running at the highest level and continues at the second to lowest mode till approx 3:30. I'm thinking this must have something to do with the emergency power reserve settings cause at the end of the last test I plugged the battery into a BT40 that was sitting nearby and it powered up to its normal max lux readings. Whatever the cause I'd say if you do long rides and like to use the higher settings on your light getting a higher capacity battery is probably a good idea.
> Mole


Figured I'd just quote this rather reference back to the post. Runtime information may be of interest to you guys.
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

ninjichor said:


> Nah, I mean the light's intensity dimmed and brightened rhythmically after turning it on, without touching it to change settings. It was gradually increasing and decreasing brightness at a rate similar to breathing at rest.
> 
> Never knew there was a Go Home mode. Thought it just aggressively enforced lower brightness modes at low battery life to get long run time.


Sounds like it is just going into a thermal protection mode. It's a fairly rough PID control that's designed to be fast responding. Rather than pull power and veryyy slowly add it back. It pulls power quick, then once it reaches the temperature set point, tries to add some back until it reaches the threshold again, etc. etc. That is what can cause the rhythmic pulsing when it just sits on a bench for a few minutes.

Once you start moving and get some air flowing over it, it should go away.


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

Outbound said:


> Sounds like it is just going into a thermal protection mode. It's a fairly rough PID control that's designed to be fast responding. Rather than pull power and veryyy slowly add it back. It pulls power quick, then once it reaches the temperature set point, tries to add some back until it reaches the threshold again, etc. etc. That is what can cause the rhythmic pulsing when it just sits on a bench for a few minutes.
> 
> Once you start moving and get some air flowing over it, it should go away.


I actually did an entire ride with it doing that. Didn't restart it until I got back home, which got it working like expected.

Here's an 18 sec clip of what it looked like on the smoothest bit I could find, to show how it was pulsing despite airflow:


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

That is really odd. Shoot me an email [email protected] and we'll get you a new light head out and I'll get that one back so I can see if can figure out what causes that.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

Thanks Mole for bringing up your post, i am aware of this issue.



biking_tg said:


> I think this enforcement of lower brightness mode is a part of the get home mode (i think that reduction in brightness happens once you reach 25% runtime left in the choosen mode). Never managed to override it completely, it is pretty insistent.
> 
> Therefore i asked whether a 3s/11.1 V Battery might in fact deactivate this mode?


@outbound: Is that brightness reduction battery voltage controlled, i.e can i avoid this by using a different voltage input (max 14V)? Do you plan at some point a software update which would allow to force off that mode if wanted by the user (i.e. by tapping 4 times on the button...)

Also, here https://www.bikeforums.net/20028128-post21.html you mentioned a future lamp with dipped and high beam: 


Outbound said:


> Also in the future I do want to do a whole low/high beam lamp that's a little bigger than the current one, but that'll also be fairly pricey just because now have to double up on the chips and tooling sizes. The chips are one of the biggest cost driving factors (along with the battery). But if the kickstarter goes well, and specific optic type lamps like the Focal series can help us bring in revenue, can buy chips in larger quantities to help bring price down


If i support hangover, is this then your next project  ?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Starting from MRM's post #842, I find some of the discussion concerning "sudden drops in output" worrisome. If indeed the light is powering down from high to a _much_ lower level after only 70 minutes ( assuming thermal regulation not the causal issue ) than all I can say is, "That kind'a sucks. If this is due to just normal voltage drop on the 4-cell battery than I think someone screwed the pooch. If the light head is using a decent 4-cell battery I'm of the opinion that the output shouldn't suddenly drop just because 70 minutes of high mode usage just went past. Of course most people probably wouldn't run a lamp continuously on it's highest mode for 70 minutes because ( typically ) it might overheat the lamp and waste a lot of run time. That said, if the lamp has a very good thermal regulation circuit I would only expect a gradual reduction in output ( and usually barely noticeable ) as this is how most bike lights control the over-heating problem ( assuming also normal air flow as one is riding to help cool the lamp ).

What I found most disturbing was the video that _ninjichor_ posted showing the lamp rapidly varying from bright to dim. Hopefully this is just a bad component / anomaly within the lamp and something not normal or a programmed part of the design. Personally I hate pre-programmed auto-dimming stuff unless there is less than 20 minutes of run time left ( on high ). Still, I'd rather have the notification of impending "shut down" just be something as simple as a single red warning light flashing, perhaps a couple quick pulsing bursts from the front lamp and then let the user decide what output he wants to continue to use. Definitely wouldn't want the lamp to suddenly drop down 600 lumen as I'm railing down a technical descent at high speed.

Just now I looked at the Outbound Trail Edition on the Outbound website. ( Sorry, never really looked at it before ) I couldn't help but notice that there is nothing on the website that I saw that indicated the output of the lamp or what output the other modes were when it comes to "lumen output". ( the only mentioning anything having to do with output was a mention of the lamp providing "60 lux" ). This isn't Germany. This side of the pond we are used to comparing bike lights in "Lumen". Just the fact that one of the most important features ( of any lamp ) is not really mentioned ( output of all modes in the U.I. in lumen )...I tend to find that unacceptable. If I buy a lamp like this I want to know how bright it is on every single mode.

( *Please note: This is the kind of post i do when I'm on vacation and it's too hot to ride. If I can't ride I just sit around and read or bang my head on the walls. :smallviolin: )


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cat-man-do said:


> Starting from MRM's post #842, I find some of the discussion concerning "sudden drops in output" worrisome. If indeed the light is powering down from high to a _much_ lower level after only 70 minutes ( assuming thermal regulation not the causal issue ) than all I can say is, "That kind'a sucks. If this is due to just normal voltage drop on the 4-cell battery than I think someone screwed the pooch. If the light head is using a decent 4-cell battery I'm of the opinion that the output shouldn't suddenly drop just because 70 minutes of high mode usage just went past. Of course most people probably wouldn't run a lamp continuously on it's highest mode for 70 minutes because ( typically ) it might overheat the lamp and waste a lot of run time. That said, if the lamp has a very good thermal regulation circuit I would only expect a gradual reduction in output ( and usually barely noticeable ) as this is how most bike lights control the over-heating problem ( assuming also normal air flow as one is riding to help cool the lamp ).


By design it is not a "sudden" drop, it is a gradual reduction in adaptive mode, and in a steady high mode it will start to reduce when there is less than 30 minutes of runtime left on the lowest mode. Note.... not 30 minutes left in the mode it's in. So if you were still running on high, you'd have at most like 5-6 minutes left. This get-back-home-mode is meant to leave a reserve of fuel left to be able to still .... get back home. I think a lot of people get confused thinking that I'm stealing 30 minutes of runtime in high from them, when it's 30 minutes of runtime in the lowest mode which is significantly longer than if it was left in the mode they were in.

The only time thermal protection comes in is when it's just left sitting on a bench, or really really really hot ambient temps and hardly any movement.



> What I found most disturbing was the video that _ninjichor_ posted showing the lamp rapidly varying from bright to dim. Hopefully this is just a bad component / anomaly within the lamp and something not normal or a programmed part of the design. Personally I hate pre-programmed auto-dimming stuff unless there is less than 20 minutes of run time left ( on high ). Still, I'd rather have the notification of impending "shut down" just be something as simple as a single red warning light flashing, perhaps a couple quick pulsing bursts from the front lamp and then let the user decide what output he wants to continue to use. Definitely wouldn't want the lamp to suddenly drop down 600 lumen as I'm railing down a technical descent at high speed.


His lamp did appear to be malfunctioning, what he posted is not normal. I have not heard back from him on what his order # was, or where I can send a new lighthead.



> Just now I looked at the Outbound Trail Edition on the Outbound website. ( Sorry, never really looked at it before ) I couldn't help but notice that there is nothing on the website that I saw that indicated the output of the lamp or what output the other modes were when it comes to "lumen output". ( the only mentioning anything having to do with output was a mention of the lamp providing "60 lux" ). This isn't Germany. This side of the pond we are used to comparing bike lights in "Lumen". Just the fact that one of the most important features ( of any lamp ) is not really mentioned ( output of all modes in the U.I. in lumen )...I tend to find that unacceptable. If I buy a lamp like this I want to know how bright it is on every single mode.


The omission of lumens is very intentional. This light is not intended to be compared via lumens with other lamps because the beam pattern is so radically different. Even comparing peak lux doesn't account for the beam pattern comparison.

Comparing lumens for flashlights and other lights using the same reflector bowl pattern, and same circular beam pattern is fine because there is only so much that can be changed between lights. This is what emboldens companies to start lying or manipulating numbers and perverted the lumen numbers to the point that you can't really trust what almost anyone is saying unless you start doing integrating sphere testing.

In the automotive OEM sector, it is the goal of a lighting designer to have high performance lighting with as little lumens as possible. Most of these single headlights are running 1100-1200 lumens with LED's, so a combined 2200-2400 lumens. However they are always trying to reduce that number as low as possible because that means can reduce the thermal mass, power draw, and weight. I took that approach to lighting to bikes and that's continued to be the main focus.

















This is a Trail Edition vs a NR Lumina 1200 Boost. Similar optic used in the NR Pro 1800, so just expect a light that is little brighter, however the beam pattern is still very similar to most any reflector bowl style light no matter the manufacture. The lumens used in the Trail falls halfway between the two. Would you be able to accurately say that the Trail Edition is "accurately" lumens wise 25% brighter than the Lumina in this comparison? If you compared peak lux the Lumina would actually be brighter by almost 75%.

However start moving the handlebars, get real world trail time, and the wide even illumination starts to make sense. We could measure at different points across the horizontal like road.cc does and then plot on the exponential scale to properly infer brightness as our eyes do, but then you are missing out on the vertical component of our lights and the light carpet that fills the foreground.... As you can see it's pretty frustrating to try and compare our beam patterns to others via lumens or lux.

That's why I focus on video, I try pictures but that's still tough.... Nowadays most of our sales are through word of mouth. People see others using the lights on the trail or at races, and they have to have them. Experiencing it in person is still the best way to compare, and that is why I have the 30-day guarantee. If you don't think it's worth the $200 and isn't one of the better lights out there, send it back and I'll refund you in full and pay for shipping.

To this date have had nearly 1,500 customers and I can recall only one or two guys taking me up on that.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> By design it is not a "sudden" drop, it is a gradual reduction in adaptive mode, and in a steady high mode it will start to reduce when there is less than 30 minutes of runtime left on the lowest mode. Note.... not 30 minutes left in the mode it's in. So if you were still running on high, you'd have at most like 5-6 minutes left. This get-back-home-mode is meant to leave a reserve of fuel left to be able to still .... get back home. I think a lot of people get confused thinking that I'm stealing 30 minutes of runtime in high from them, when it's 30 minutes of runtime in the lowest mode which is significantly longer than if it was left in the mode they were in.
> .


This doesn't seem to match the 70 min. I was getting in manual Hi mode so am I safe to assume that this is the way the newest lights are set up?
Mole


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Outbound said:


> By design it is not a "sudden" drop, it is a gradual reduction in adaptive mode, and in a steady high mode it will start to reduce when there is less than 30 minutes of runtime left on the lowest mode. Note.... not 30 minutes left in the mode it's in. So if you were still running on high, you'd have at most like 5-6 minutes left. This get-back-home-mode is meant to leave a reserve of fuel left to be able to still .... get back home. I think a lot of people get confused thinking that I'm stealing 30 minutes of runtime in high from them, when it's 30 minutes of runtime in the lowest mode which is significantly longer than if it was left in the mode they were in....


Thanks for the clarification. MrM, does your lamp operate this way?



Outbound said:


> ...*The omission of lumens is very intentional. This light is not intended to be compared via lumens with other lamps because the beam pattern is so radically different. Even comparing peak lux doesn't account for the beam pattern comparison.*


 I don't own any German road lamps so I have no way to compare anything listed only in Lux. My CAt gut is telling me likely that most North Americans have no idea how much lux makes for a decent Bike light. ( unless they own a variety of German made lamps that ARE rated in lux. )

Now about the Lumen issue; Not a good idea from a marketing stand point ( IMO ) not to at least include the lumen rating of the emitter chip you are using. People need information if they want to make an informed decision. When I purchase a lamp I consider not just lumen output but basic thermal design, LED type, beam pattern, type of User Interface and a bunch of other stuff I'll not go on to mention.

Looking at this issue from another perspective; When I go to Target to buy light bulbs for my home lights I always read all the specs on the boxes. _Now what if some manufacturer decided it wasn't important for the people buying their bulbs to know how bright the bulb was._ ARE YOU GOING TO BUY THEIR BULBS? I think not. You're going to buy a brand that not only tells you whether or not it's an LED bulb or halogen, it's also going to tell you ( if the bulb happens to be an LED ) that the LED output ( listed in lumen ) is equivalent to a such or such watt halogen bulb. That my friend is useful information.

Anyway, since I was curious about the LED's you used I reread the first few posts in this thread. Seems early on you were considering either the Osram Oslon Black Flat S series or the LUXEON Altilon SMD chip. Both offer choice of # of die's and so the outputs are similar. The Altilon SMD chip being perhaps 80 lumen less than the Olson Black Flat ( @1000ma ) when using all five dies. Of course no one but you knows how hard you are driving the emitter array or what bin is being used. That said we can only guess by what is on the data sheets and what the actual output might be. My guess, somewhere around 1600 lumen  Meh, If I'm wrong please correct me.



Outbound said:


> ..Comparing lumens for flashlights and other lights using the same reflector bowl pattern, and same circular beam pattern is fine because there is only so much that can be changed between lights. This is what emboldens companies to start lying or manipulating numbers and perverted the lumen numbers to the point that you can't really trust what almost anyone is saying unless you start doing integrating sphere testing.
> .


...And yet you yourself compared your Trail Edition to a single emitter self-contained lamp with a mostly circular beam pattern ( and using a single optic ). Why not compare to another lamp with a wider beam pattern and using more emitters?

Look, I'm not trying to bust your ****, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the "Usability" of the lamps that you are selling. Might be a good idea ( your's ) to have it tested in an Integrating Sphere and then publish the results. If people like the results of that test my bet is you are going to be selling a lot more light sets......BUT HEY! what the hell do I know.


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

I'm with Cat, I think the lumen output(s) should be published. I would though suggest that there be information alongside the lumen number explaining "lumens aren't everything" or "less is more", etc. . . But I agree, there will certainly be those looking for the spec of lumen output. I would say that usually if a major spec isn't published it's because the manufacturer is hiding it, and likely because it sucks (we know it's not the case here, but what about the general public?). 

-Garry


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

I still think that Outbound lights should be compared to lights like the Light and Motion Seca and/or Taz family which has been said by many to have superb beams that aren’t just circular hotspots. These lights have broad beam patterns with ceiling cutoff etc.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> Thanks for the clarification. MrM, does your lamp operate this way?


I've never run my light in the adaptive mode so I can't confirm how it performs set that way. The 70 min. time in high mode (to stepdown) I listed was done indoors cooled by a fan and only meant to test how long the light would continue to run in its highest mode so not sure how the light would have performed from that point. Battery fuel gauge still showed 3 of 5 lights which seems correct considering the usage at that point for high mode so I would guess it had considerably more than 30 min. of runtime left used in the lowest mode. So quite different from Matt's description which is why I'm wondering if he was explaining how the programming is set now.
Mole

................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... *


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

*Regardings lumen and specs:*


garrybunk said:


> I'm with Cat, I think the lumen output(s) should be published. I would though suggest that there be information alongside the lumen number explaining "lumens aren't everything" or "less is more", etc. . .





Cat-man-do said:


> [...] Anyway, since I was curious about the LED's you used I reread the first few posts in this thread.[...] Of course no one but you knows how hard you are driving the emitter array or what bin is being used. That said we can only guess by what is on the data sheets and what the actual output might be. [...] Might be a good idea ( your's ) to have it tested in an Integrating Sphere and then publish the results.[...]


Well CAt, you need to relax a bit and go biking to vent off  He gave nearly all the informations (during this rather lengthy discussion/thread) on the LEDs. Since i had kept notes while reading this whole discussion, i'll provide some details i know off (but i haven't noted the post numbers):
_Chip lumen values_ (still and only) given on the kickstarter page, scroll down to modes and runtimes https://www.kickstarter.com/project...performance-lightweight-long-lasting-bike-lig 
(won't post the graph here, as i don't want to be a spoilsport for Outbound, although i don't get it why it#s not given by him)
_H binning, so it's rated 1500 lm @1 A (~16W, which fits roughly the given run times on high for the supplied battery) and a color code 4A, i.e. 5680 K_. He also gave twice an estimate on the light temperature after passing the reflector and lens:


Outbound said:


> The Altilon starts out on the lower end of the 5000k spectrum (closer to cool white), and then when it passes the reflector and through the lens it gets knocked down to the mid 4000's (closer to warm white


Probably Matt never wanted to spend money on a integrated sphere measurement, maybe the guys at wetestlights would be willing...
In high mode the Road puts maybe a tad more (observed by eye) lumens on the road than my Lupine SL-F (at 16W max. power) in dipped mode. This one provides (FL-1) sphere measured 1000 lm.

*Regarding the step down*


MRMOLE said:


> I've never run my light in the adaptive mode so I can't confirm how it performs set that way. The 70 min. time in high mode (to stepdown) I listed was done indoors cooled by a fan and only meant to test how long the light would continue to run in its highest mode so not sure how the light would have performed from that point. Battery fuel gauge still showed 3 of 5 lights which seems correct considering the usage at that point for high mode so I would guess it had considerably more than 30 min. of runtime left used in the lowest mode. So quite different from Matt's description which is why I'm wondering if he was explaining how the programming is set now.
> Mole


In manual high i observe the same behaviour as MrM. However you can manually still switch after the stepdown from high to med back again to Med-high for a while, before it again steps down. With my lamp this initial step down also happens at 50% runtime left (3 leds), so the 2.6/2.8 hr runtime promise on high is not possible due to this step down.
When i ordered my light in January 2019 i explicitely asked Matt whether i would get the new software version. Matt affirmed this, but it still behaves the same as Mole's, and he got the lamp i think during the Kickstarter campagain.... Matt wrote in a earlier post last year about this issue:


Outbound said:


> The forcing of the lower modes is something that is going to be fixed in a programming change. Basically there as a safeguard to make sure never going to be left in the dark unexpectedly, but got too aggressive on the programming, and should have put in the function to allow an override once selected again. [...] Will be trying to figure out a way to get people who want the new programming update to get updated.


Maybe the most recent lamps do really only this and do not have forced power reduction: (mine doesn't work that way)


Outbound said:


> [...] in a steady high mode it will start to reduce when there is less than 30 minutes of runtime left on the lowest mode. Note.... not 30 minutes left in the mode it's in.[...]


_Possible solutions (besides humongous big batteries...)_


RAKC Ind said:


> [...]
> Now I am wondering if I need to put a pack together specifically for this light that will keep voltage high enough for the majority of the run time. [...]


RAKC did you ever try to run it on a 3S (11,1V Li-ion) battery? Does it there show the same behaviour? Outbound doesn't want to tell us yet whether this could be a work-around (and i don't want to buy a battery and a suitable charger to find out it doesn't work) to trick the software

*Adaptive mode*
A never answered question, where an answer would be really pretty useful:


jham65 said:


> I really like the idea of Adaptive Mode but if the power is cycled, I assume you reset the adaptive mode "timer." Is that correct? If so, would your recommend leaving the light on during, say a 15 minute a rest stop or turn off the light?


Furthermore, is the timer reset once the lamp is switched off or does it "memorize" the state of the adaptive mode for a certain time as long as the battery is not disconnected? Would be handy...


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

biking_tg said:


> *Regardings lumen and specs:*
> 
> Well CAt, you need to relax a bit and go biking to vent off  He gave nearly all the informations (during this rather lengthy discussion/thread) on the LEDs. Since i had kept notes while reading this whole discussion, i'll provide some details i know off (but i haven't noted the post numbers):
> _Chip lumen values_ (still and only) given on the kickstarter page, scroll down to modes and runtimes https://www.kickstarter.com/project...performance-lightweight-long-lasting-bike-lig
> ...


Yes, I figured as much but didn't feel like reading through the entire thread which is quite lengthy. This thread has been going on for a long time. I kind of followed the thread for a while and then decided to just let it go till an actual product was being sold. I do recall him mentioning the beam tint but not the lumen output. Never was interested in investing in one before an actual product was made so I never ventured to look at Kickstarter. BTW, I also looked at the Outbound website and it was not mentioned there either. Nice to know I was pretty close in estimating the output



biking_tg said:


> ....*Regarding the step down[/B
> In manual high i observe the same behaviour as MrM. However you can manually still switch after the stepdown from high to med back again to Med-high for a while, before it again steps down. With my lamp this initial step down also happens at 50% runtime left (3 leds), so the 2.6/2.8 hr runtime promise on high is not possible due to this step down.
> When i ordered my light in January 2019 i explicitely asked Matt whether i would get the new software version. Matt affirmed this, but it still behaves the same as Mole's, and he got the lamp i think during the Kickstarter campagain.... Matt wrote in a earlier post last year about this issue:
> 
> ...


*

Well now, from what you have said here there seems to be more evidence of a problem with the step down circuitry that is designed to control run time. Should not be stepping down with 50% of the battery capacity left ( or so Outbound has led me to believe ).*


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

garrybunk said:


> I'm with Cat, I think the lumen output(s) should be published. I would though suggest that there be information alongside the lumen number explaining "lumens aren't everything" or "less is more", etc. . . ...





Cat-man-do said:


> ... Now about the Lumen issue; Not a good idea from a marketing stand point ( IMO ) not to at least include the lumen rating of the emitter chip you are using. People need information if they want to make an informed decision.


You're critizism was heard, lumen values are again listed in the shop (see specs), and in a recent the blog entry Matt explaines what he means with "equivalent lumen"

@Outbound: don't forget to answer our question regarding forcing of lower modes and regarding the functionality of the adaptive mode


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

biking_tg said:


> You're critizism was heard, lumen values are again listed in the shop (see specs), and in a recent the blog entry Matt explaines what he means with "equivalent lumen"
> 
> @Outbound: don't forget to answer our question regarding forcing of lower modes and regarding the functionality of the adaptive mode


Just FYI, the lumens spec has always been there, and that blog post is over a year old. 

I don't mind having the lumen number, I just intentionally don't make it a focus in the advertising and marketing because I feel it only tells part of the story. While competing lights make it their main focus because it's the only thing that lets them stand out.

I am investigating the power override a bit more. It was supposed to be fixed in the latest programming revision that I rolled out in January, and to be honest except for a few complaints on the forums here I haven't gotten any complaints from customers except for the few that power it on right out of the box and don't charge the battery up fully. Once they are instructed to charge the battery fully and let me know if still auto-overrides then to get back in touch, I never hear from them again, ha.


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

That reminds of me of David Pogue's camera reviews from ~10 years ago. He never missed an opportunity to complain about manufacturers using megapixel numbers to sell cameras rather than sensor size.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

*Here comes some feedback on the light distribution of the road edition.* My initial impression is confirmed, after using the lamp more and more.
1) i like that the Focal Road has not such a hard cutoff at the side (like i.e. the lupine does due to the lenses), it fades out a bit more. I also like the warmer color the Focal lights. The 5300 K binning might be even better, if you could get your hands on these.

2) _Now for my taste there is too much light in front off the bike_, i'll try to show this by some pictures. 
At first two pics taken playing with the lamp adjustment, taken at the same spot.

Cut-off adjusted as it should be (very slightly inclined downwards), where I marked the spot which is too bright:









Cut-off line inclined slightly upwards, such that the trees in the distance were illuminated up to 4-5 m height:








In the "high beam mode" the brightness is much more homogenous and it's better to drive with, but it countermands the cut-off line... (albeit nice as high beam function  ). It could be still a bit less light infront of the bike, but it comes very close to what i would like in brightness distribution when the lamp is correctly adjusted.

Next two pictures of another spot, left the outbound, right lupine sl-f(dipped mode)









now the lupine (lower image) doesn't have a perfect light carpet (bright spot in the middle, followed by a darker area, but it is certainly better when it comes to the brightness in front of the bike.
The excess light in front of the bike makes it harder to see better in the distance. From all the image i've seen so far, the trail edition also has a better brightness distribution in front of the bike compared to the distance.
FYI: All images were taken only to illustrate my point, both lamps perform in the real world better than shown in these pictures



Outbound said:


> Just FYI, the lumens spec has always been there, and that blog post is over a year old.  ...


Well, i got confused with the date, after reading your most recent blog entry (seen in the newsletter), i just thought: oh, the other one's new as well, but the year was different . So maybe CAt "had tomatoes on his eyes" (a german idiom, literally translated, used if some doesn't see things which are relatively easy to see)

Btw the blog is not really linked on the outbound website (or i didn't see it although i used). I only could access it by knowing the adress or using your link from the newsletter.



Outbound said:


> I am investigating the power override a bit more. It was supposed to be fixed in the latest programming revision that I rolled out in January.... Once they are instructed to charge the battery fully


Thanks, please keep us (or at least me) updated. I ordered Jan 15th, and unfortunately you can be assured the override didn't go away after charging the battery fully. Probably many people don't notice it much and just enjoy the long run time, but i like to control the power, depending on the situation (i.e. fast descent...). The aggressive override might be ok if the runtime at the chosen mode is less than 20%, but not 50%.

Another suggestion regarding programming: Include a function, which indicates the battery _charge_ status (not rel. runtime!). This could be shown i.e. after connecting the battery or after switching on/off the light (i.e. status lights blink a few times with the respective number of LEDs depending on the charge).


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*@ biking_tg*....FWIW I like the beam pattern and brightness of the OB road lamp ( judging from your photos ). The bright spot you complained about would likely not bother me as I typically ride roads that are dark asphalt so would likely not even show as a "bright spot".

Now if OB can get this auto-power down thing figured out and come up with a remote control switch I might buy one of these lamps.

Now about that "tomato's on his eye's" comment....:ciappa:....:smilewinkgrin: ( _or to put another way, one should not have to scour the internet to find very pertinent information on a new product. It should be listed on the manufacturer's website "where all other manufacturers list their specifications"._ )


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

Cat-man-do said:


> *@ biking_tg*....FWIW I like the beam pattern and brightness of the OB road lamp ( judging from your photos ). The bright spot you complained about would likely not bother me as I typically ride roads that are dark asphalt so would likely not even show as a "bright spot".


Well, i don't understand why i would even want on dark asphalt that much light in front of the bike. Might not be so disturbing on dark asphalt compared to brighter gravel, but there is no use to it. That light is better used for the distance. And even on asphalt _it is for my liking and for my eyes_ still to bright. Admittely we at the other side of the pond do not so many dark asphalt roads (the only dark asphalt here is available when a road is freshly prepared/the asphalt deposited (or whatever the correct word is), it usually changes more towards gray quickly. The last two images i showed show the typical asphalt color in this place of the world.
The issue is, the brighter area is more distracting on (med-)high mode, especially on bright gravel roads (and we have some of them). Since Outbound recommends in his latest Update/blog the road for a gravel bike, i see this as a problem.

However as it's always useful to have a backup light, i usually have two lights on the bike and can, with respect to my needs, switch between the Focal road and the remote controlled SL-F :cornut:. Both of them together produce a nice light 



Cat-man-do said:


> Now about that "tomato's on his eye's" comment....:ciappa:....:smilewinkgrin: ( _or to put another way, one should not have to scour the internet to find very pertinent information on a new product. It should be listed on the manufacturer's website "where all other manufacturers list their specifications"._ )


Well it is (and obviously was) listed once you go the shop section, right there at the "specs" . Admittedly it might not have been listed on the page which appeared earlier once you clicked on the respective lights and that were probably the sites you looked at. However the webpage has been again changed and these older product description pages have been removed and the respective shop section is now directly linked.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

biking_tg said:


> Well, i don't understand why i would even want on dark asphalt that much light in front of the bike. Might not be so disturbing on dark asphalt compared to brighter gravel, but there is no use to it. That light is better used for the distance. And even on asphalt _it is for my liking and for my eyes_ still to bright. Admittely we at the other side of the pond do not so many dark asphalt roads (the only dark asphalt here is available when a road is freshly prepared/the asphalt deposited (or whatever the correct word is), it usually changes more towards gray quickly. The last two images i showed show the typical asphalt color in this place of the world.
> The issue is, the brighter area is more distracting on (med-)high mode, especially on bright gravel roads (and we have some of them). Since Outbound recommends in his latest Update/blog the road for a gravel bike, i see this as a problem.
> 
> However as it's always useful to have a backup light, i usually have two lights on the bike and can, with respect to my needs, switch between the Focal road and the remote controlled SL-F :cornut:. Both of them together produce a nice light
> ...


I can relate to what you are saying in regard to illumination ( distance and near the bike ). However I think the issue here might be in how you prefer to aim the OB lamp. If you aim it too low you will of course get more light in the forefront ( closer to the bike ). The other photo where you aimed the lamp a bit higher seemed to provide a more evenly spread beam pattern. Much more to my liking to say the least.

Now about what you said about the asphalt roads where you live; Yes, I see what you mean. New asphalt is much darker. Where I live I don't see much newer asphalt but yes the asphalt does get grayer ( or lighter to put another way ) as it gets older. Not as gray as the roads you ride on but like all things, depends on where you choose to ride or where you live I suppose. I went back and looked at some of my old road photos and though some of those roads are grayish they don't look near as light colored as the roads in your neck of the woods.

Like you I use a two lamp system when riding on the road. My low beam lamp is one of the Raveman lamps ( with a cut-off type lens ) while the lamp I use for high beam is the Gemini Duo with dual spot optics. Both lamps operate via remote control so I always have the amount of light I need at any given moment. My interest in the Outbound light systems is because one; it is affordable and two, It has the potential to be a "one lamp system" that can provide a usable low and high beam. I'd probably own one if it offered a remote control but if I did I'd likely aim it a little higher than you do.

The Outbound website now lists the lumen output ( as it should ). It was not there before as Mr. OB said when he first responded to my earlier post. I guess he considered what I had to say made for a valid point and therefore updated the website.

Like you I have a two lamp system on my bike that works. I don't really need another lamp. Of course the "Light Junkie" in me is always interested in the new innovating products and so I love reading about and testing new types of bike lights. ( one of my few weaknesses....buying bike lights I really don't need... )


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

Cat-man-do said:


> I can relate to what you are saying in regard to illumination ( distance and near the bike ). However I think the issue here might be in how you prefer to aim the OB lamp. If you aim it too low you will of course get more light in the forefront ( closer to the bike ). The other photo where you aimed the lamp a bit higher seemed to provide a more evenly spread beam pattern. Much more to my liking to say the least. [....]
> I did I'd likely aim it a little higher than you do.


Ah Cat, now you're even agreeing with my judgement  Even though i had the lamps (OB and SL) in "dipped mode" aimed to max "non-blinding" reach (, i.e. 0.1 - 1° degree aimed down, like a car headlight), the outbound has still that bright spot in front off the bike. If you aim it higher, it gets much better but you get essentially a high beam lamp. So the elsewise excellent cut-off design becomes totally useless on road with oncoming traffic as you then blind them. That is my point of critizism. If i buy a cut-off lamp i hope to get the perfect light carpet when i aim the cut-off in a legally correct way ( as described abov)

The images in post 889 do not show the proper reach of the lights, the camera settings were less than ideal for this (in reality you could see much further than on the pictures), but good for showing the bright spot



Cat-man-do said:


> ...Of course the "Light Junkie" in me is always interested in the new innovating products and so I love reading about and testing new types of bike lights. ( one of my few weaknesses....buying bike lights I really don't need... )


Ha, i have an inner light junkie as well... this junkie is expensive...
btw the OB does not really need a remote, that is imho only needed if you have a integrated high beam function by switching on additional LEDs. No other of the expensive cut-off lamps (without high-beam function!) like the supernova M99 pures or the Lupine SL (without F) have a remote, because you do not really need it.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cat-man-do said:


> The Outbound website now lists the lumen output ( as it should ). It was not there before as Mr. OB said when he first responded to my earlier post. I guess he considered what I had to say made for a valid point and therefore updated the website.


Just to re-iterate. We've always had chip lumen output under the specs area since I launched the light over a year ago. I just don't care to make it a main point of marketing so it's not posted right up front, first line, like a lot of competitor lights. I'm sure we lose a few potential customers who are just shopping by lumen numbers but it doesn't worry me. Our sales are still very strong and have a pretty high conversion rate on the site.

Speaking of, just placed the reorders for this fall, so we won't have a repeat of last year where we were out of stock from October till Xmas. Got plenty of inventory this year!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

biking_tg said:


> Ah Cat, now you're even agreeing with my judgement  Even though i had the lamps (OB and SL) in "dipped mode" aimed to max "non-blinding" reach (, i.e. 0.1 - 1° degree aimed down, like a car headlight), the outbound has still that bright spot in front off the bike. If you aim it higher, it gets much better but you get essentially a high beam lamp. So the elsewise excellent cut-off design becomes totally useless on road with oncoming traffic as you then blind them. That is my point of critizism. If i buy a cut-off lamp i hope to get the perfect light carpet when i aim the cut-off in a legally correct way ( as described abov)
> 
> *The images in post 889 do not show the proper reach of the lights, the camera settings were less than ideal for this (in reality you could see much further than on the pictures), but good for showing the bright spot *


Yes, hard to judge from photos of beam patterns simply because almost all cameras tend to over-compensate to light in the foreground.

For what it's worth my Raveman lights also tend to have a brighter light closer to the bike if I'm using the higher output levels. Since I tend to use the lower power levels most of the time and the fact that I usually focus my eyesight toward the far end of the beam pattern I don't find the closer light to be a major distraction. Besides, sometimes I need to see the smaller debris in the road and that's not going to happen at distance. More than likely I see that stuff when it gets real close to the bike so in that sense it makes sense to have a lamp that provides enough light up close to the bike as well.

About the aiming of the cut-off; If you truly have a lamp with a defined cut-off, aiming it slightly up ( so you can see farther ) should not overly blind vehicles approaching from the front since most of the light is still directed to the road surface. Besides if the cut-off is directed too close to the bike you then you can't see as far as you need to see. I do understand your argument that it would be better if more light was directed to the distance cut-off portion of the beam pattern and then tapered to less when closer to the bike. The thing is once you design something like that if you start to use lower output levels then suddenly you could find yourself not able to see things up closer to the bike when using less output. Personally I think I could deal with a little brighter light closer to the bike but since I don't own the OB I can't really say for sure.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

*@OUTBOUND:*
What is your opinion on this bright spot matter? Do you disagree with my judgement and never considered this as a problem or do you just prefer it this way?



Cat-man-do said:


> [...]About the aiming of the cut-off; If you truly have a lamp with a defined cut-off, aiming it slightly up ( so you can see farther ) should not overly blind vehicles approaching from the front since most of the light is still directed to the road surface.


I disagree here, many cut-off lamps have bright hotspot just below the cut-off. This applies to the OB Focal as well. Just think about how many car lights blind because the car is loaded heavily and people do not manually adjust the head beam with that little wheel in the dashbord (at least here in germany this happens all the time)


Cat-man-do said:


> Besides if the cut-off is directed too close to the bike you then you can't see as far as you need to see.


That's clear, but as i wrote, i adjusted as high as possible.



Cat-man-do said:


> I do understand your argument that it would be better if more light was directed to the distance cut-off portion of the beam pattern and then tapered to less when closer to the bike. The thing is once you design something like that if you start to use lower output levels then suddenly you could find yourself not able to see things up closer to the bike when using less output.


I disagree here as well, the Lupine has such a beam pattern and it gives me no trouble on lower power modes (the lowest mode there is comparable to the lowest of the OB, and the lupine is substantially more useful on low as you can see much better to the distance, without having problems seeing enough in front of you bike). Lights like the B&M Ixon IQ Premium have a bright spot in the distance and less in front of the bike and were at their time very good lights with only about 100-200 lm, or take the Philips Saferide 80, excellent homogenous beam (albeit a bit narrow) and only 250 lm (or close to that +- 30lm)


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## motorider78 (Apr 5, 2017)

Does anyone know the polarity of the power cord? I just bought the light head and need to know the polarity to get it wired correctly. Thanks in advance.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

motorider78 said:


> Does anyone know the polarity of the power cord? I just bought the light head and need to know the polarity to get it wired correctly. Thanks in advance.


If the cords are red and black: red: +/power, black - /ground
Source: OL on the question of the wire polarity of his extension cables. 
To be sure, sent OL an email or call and you know it.

In case you havent cut the connector plug away already: you might consider getting an extension cable and cut it, so you won't loose the 5521 plug.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

motorider78 said:


> Does anyone know the polarity of the power cord? I just bought the light head and need to know the polarity to get it wired correctly. Thanks in advance.


Just dug through some old emails when I helped a customer figure this out last year. The outer jacket is ground, and the inner prong is power. Hope this helps


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Focal got some major love from Pinkbike in their new light comparison, congrats.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Velodonata said:


> Focal got some major love from Pinkbike in their new light comparison, congrats.


Thanks for posting this! Excellent article. Outbound Trail, "Best light in test" :thumbsup:.
Mole

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/10-best-handlebar-mounted-bike-lights-ridden-rated.html


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## mestapho (Sep 3, 2011)

Congrats on the review, well deserved!


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## ninjichor (Jul 12, 2018)

I thought the last part was cute:

_"Some extra special testing was done by the local after school mountain biking program. We lent out the test lights to elementary school kids and their instructors to spend their last day of the program experiencing night riding. They all loved the night riding adventure - and each thought that their light was by far the best of the bunch."_​


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## useport80 (Mar 6, 2008)

i have two of the flat adhesive gopro mounts on my helmet, one on the top side, and one on the back of the head. i can mount the light to the top side mount via gopro mount, would it be possible to mount the battery pack to my rear gopro mount on the helmet? i'm just trying to avoid running a cable down my back.

as a helmet light, is the hangover light better than the trail edition light?


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

useport80 said:


> as a helmet light, is the hangover light better than the trail edition light?


Depends what you expect from a helmet light. The trail edition was never intended as helmet light, from the focal series the road edition was intended as helmet light in addition to the the Trail on the bars.

If you look at the OL webpage/shop, you can see that the Hangover has more "punch" at the center of the beam (more lux) than the trail edition, but the trail edition has a much wider beam with less reach. Outbound stated the hangover can be well used on the helmet with a trail on the bars.
You can find in the OL Shop at the hangover product page a graph of the light simulation for the hangover, the same thing for the Trail edition at Instagram (i guess an earlier prototype, but sufficient to point out the difference).


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## RipleyV4 (Aug 3, 2019)

So the question I have is...will the Hangover (helmet) with the Trail (bars) be a better MTB combo than the Road (helmet) and Trail (bars)?


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

RipleyV4 said:


> So the question I have is...will the Hangover (helmet) with the Trail (bars) be a better MTB combo than the Road (helmet) and Trail (bars)?


For me it will in that the Hangover doesn't have a detached battery. I don't mind it on the frame, but it's irritating to take my helmet off and have it cabled to my bag.


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## RipleyV4 (Aug 3, 2019)

I hear you and I feel the same way, but if the Road outperforms the Hangover as a helmet light then I could deal with being tethered. I usually have a backpack when night riding just cause I don't want to get stuck in the dark without necessities. So tucking a battery in the pack wouldn't be the end all.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

@Outbound:
Tom writes in his IG Post about using an "updated focal trail" on the bars. Spill the beans, what does "updated" mean?



RipleyV4 said:


> but if the Road outperforms the Hangover as a helmet light then I could deal with being tethered.


Since the road has more lux (at the brightest spot 110) and more lumens, it will in a way outperform the hangover. The biggest difference is that the road has a cut-off reflector, while the hangover doesn't have it. However with the lamp on the head, you can just move your head and the cut-off is not a limiting factor anymore.
Advantage of the road edition: you'll have a pretty good light for road use as well (actually it is one of the best, and i have seen/used in real life all of the high price cut-off lamps which are available up to now)!


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

evasive said:


> ...it's irritating to take my helmet off and have it cabled to my bag.


Ouch!


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## ohahonen (Oct 31, 2019)

*Battery life?*

I've sent e-mails to Outboundlighting, but I haven't received any reply, so let's try this way. 
Excerpt from my e-mail:
"When the battery goes to 50%(three leds) after around one hour of running time, power is cut to medium... It can be manually adjusted to medium-high, but not to high. Therefore mentioned 2,6 hrs running time on high is very doubtful. Actually I got only total of 3 hrs of running time on high, then it was dropped to med-high after approx one hour and then first led started to blink. Could the battery be faulty?
Please can you comment this?"

​


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

*Focal Series Power drop down*



ohahonen said:


> When the battery goes to 50%(three leds) after around one hour of running time, power is cut to medium... It can be manually adjusted to medium-high, but not to high. Therefore mentioned 2,6 hrs running time on high is very doubtful. Actually I got only total of 3 hrs of running time on high, then it was dropped to med-high after approx one hour and then first led started to blink. Could the battery be faulty?
> Please can you comment this?"


A quick calculation: The battery has a capacity of ~50 Wh, and the light on high is driven by ~17W. So in theory 2.6 hr is a possible running time. BUT:
the lights have that battery saving mode to avoid that your runtime is too low. We had this in the thread before. It is a feature of the lights software (which were nice, if it could be overriden, but it can't), so not a battery issue.
I assume it's cold at your place right now as well? So in cold conditions, the capacity of any battery is lowered, and the cell voltage is lower than in warmer conditions, especially if higher currents are taken from the battery. So yes, in colder conditions: shorter runtimes on totally realistic. In theory you should have 01:20 hr runtime on high, before the power drop down kicks in.

And actually: The LEDs _do not_ show the remaining _capacity_, they indicate the _remaining runtime_ in the choosen mode (at least my focal road does it). If the lights steps down to med and you go to low, you have again 5 LEDs lit up. (only in high mode it is more or less equivalent to the capacity)

A.t.m I think Matt (a.k.a Outbound) is drowning in work with the hangover production, so i'd try to call him instead of waiting on a email reply. But as said, and as discussed before (i mentioned this, MrMole as well): software feature, not battery issue. He recognized that issue in the hangover thread, where he said that the hangover either doesn't have this feature or it would allow an override of that feature.

I assume (haven't tried yet, will probably try within the next few weeks) that a battery with 3 cells in series (and a voltage of 11V) would trick the lights software, since that feature must be voltage controlled. The light itself works with input voltages of max 14V.

One can hope that, once the hangover production is rolling and the massive pre-orders are shipped out, Matt spents some time on a software update and offers a then a software update to existing customers (he said earlier in the thread he'd do it)

Hope this helps


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

*Focal Series Output step down*

My focal road (bought Jan 2019) was tested with a (non calibrated) lab dc source to check for step down voltages:

Stepdown from high to med occurs below 7.3V, below 6.3V a step down from medium occurs.

This means a 3S battery (11V) will prevent the light from stepping down, allowing full usage of the light modes at any state of charge!

In Post #702 Outbound addresses that issue of the forcing of lower modes, the only thing is: the supposedly new software still does ist

In Post #754 MrMole reported some runtime tests with different batteries where he checked when the step down happens.


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

ohahonen said:


> I've sent e-mails to Outboundlighting, but I haven't received any reply, so let's try this way.
> Excerpt from my e-mail:
> "When the battery goes to 50%(three leds) after around one hour of running time, power is cut to medium... It can be manually adjusted to medium-high, but not to high. Therefore mentioned 2,6 hrs running time on high is very doubtful. Actually I got only total of 3 hrs of running time on high, then it was dropped to med-high after approx one hour and then first led started to blink. Could the battery be faulty?
> Please can you comment this?"
> ...


Is the battery new? If not, how old is the battery? Also, what ambient temps are you experiencing?


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## icycle (Apr 20, 2004)

Thanks @biking_tg, This helped me a lot, since I've been trying to understand what's going on with the software with step down and battery gauge but haven't had time yet to wade through this whole thread to figure it out. Still wouldn't trade this light for any other!



biking_tg said:


> A quick calculation: The battery has a capacity of ~50 Wh, and the light on high is driven by ~17W. So in theory 2.6 hr is a possible running time. BUT:
> the lights have that battery saving mode to avoid that your runtime is too low. We had this in the thread before. It is a feature of the lights software (which were nice, if it could be overriden, but it can't), so not a battery issue.
> I assume it's cold at your place right now as well? So in cold conditions, the capacity of any battery is lowered, and the cell voltage is lower than in warmer conditions, especially if higher currents are taken from the battery. So yes, in colder conditions: shorter runtimes on totally realistic. In theory you should have 01:20 hr runtime on high, before the power drop down kicks in.
> 
> ...


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## JIMSLICK (Nov 19, 2012)

icycle said:


> Thanks @biking_tg, This helped me a lot, since I've been trying to understand what's going on with the software with step down and battery gauge but haven't had time yet to wade through this whole thread to figure it out. Still wouldn't trade this light for any other!


Just curious has anyone compared this light to something higher end, gemeni titan or a lupine wilma seems its been compared to some of the smaller flashlight type lights. I got one and doesn't seem very bright or have much throw, just curious thanks


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## icycle (Apr 20, 2004)

JIMSLICK said:


> Just curious has anyone compared this light to something higher end, gemeni titan or a lupine wilma seems its been compared to some of the smaller flashlight type lights. I got one and doesn't seem very bright or have much throw, just curious thanks


Background: I use it only on the bar and am awaiting their Hangover light for the helmet.

Here's how I look at it: this light has the best beam pattern I've seen coupled with very efficient electronics. Using only this light on the bars, I can ride nearly full speed on my local trails, including very technical downhills. There are few times I'm needing more or different light: very tight corners and sharp ups or downs and for all of this it's because it's bar mounted. For everything else, including most corners, the wide beam reaches nicely. And if you aim it up a little higher for wide open or fast riding then it's even better.

About the efficient electronics, the thing can stay on high at a stop for several minutes at 40F and not even be warm to the touch. In fact, I've never felt the top of this light warm in all the cooler weather riding I've done with it so far. Now I don't claim to understand the programming yet but I can basically throw this on high (not adaptive, but high) and run it for nearly 4 hours and still have 3 on the battery meter. It had stepped down to med high and then med by the end of this time (behavior I want to understand better), so it's kinda set it and forget it and think about the ride.

Long story short is yeah, it doesn't punch like the lights you're talking about, but it puts plenty of light in all the right places and does so efficiently. Totally the right choice for me. When I get the punchier Hangover in, I expect the few downsides I mentioned to be solved, all for < $350 for both lights.


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## ohahonen (Oct 31, 2019)

Re-edit...


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## ohahonen (Oct 31, 2019)

VegasSingleSpeed said:


> Is the battery new? If not, how old is the battery? Also, what ambient temps are you experiencing?


Got this issue sorted. Matt offered excellent solution, great service! The battery is a bit over one month old, came with the set I bought. And just ordered a road edition to complement it as a helmet light.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

ohahonen said:


> Got this issue sorted. Matt offered excellent solution, great service.


Would you mind sharing that solution?



icycle said:


> but I can basically throw this on high (not adaptive, but high) and run it for nearly 4 hours and still have 3 on the battery meter. It had stepped down to med high and then med by the end of this time (behavior I want to understand better), so it's kinda set it and forget it and think about the ride.


4 hours on high and still having 3 diodes on the meter left is physically not possible, if you use the original OL 4cell battery.
Could it be that you don't notice the drop-down from high to med after 1:20 hr, because you're so busy riding?


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## TexasCrane (May 12, 2010)

I just picked up a gopro hero 8 and made a video of my Outbound Lights downhill package. The stabilization didn't work to well at night but it gives you a good idea of the lights.


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## TexasCrane (May 12, 2010)

My thoughts on the downhill package:


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## icycle (Apr 20, 2004)

biking_tg said:


> 4 hours on high and still having 3 diodes on the meter left is physically not possible, if you use the original OL 4cell battery.
> Could it be that you don't notice the drop-down from high to med after 1:20 hr, because you're so busy riding?


Sorry for the confusion, what I meant by:



icycle said:


> I can basically throw this on high (not adaptive, but high) and run it for nearly 4 hours and still have 3 on the battery meter. It had stepped down to med high and then med by the end of this time (behavior I want to understand better), so it's kinda set it and forget it and think about the ride.


is that it starts on high and stepped down to med high and then medium but was able to keep the ride going without worrying much about the battery level. Now, that's great for long rides but I would like to be able to override that when I want 2-2.5h on high.


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## JIMSLICK (Nov 19, 2012)

one more time anyone compare this light to something high end like a gemeni titan or lupine wilma, i have one and it just doesn't seem very bright or have much throw but hey im 59 and ptobably half blind


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## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

JIMSLICK said:


> one more time anyone compare this light to something high end like a gemeni titan or lupine wilma, i have one and it just doesn't seem very bright or have much throw but hey im 59 and ptobably half blind


I'm 53 with poor night vision and I agree with you about the Trail model. The best bar light I've ever used without a doubt is the Magicshine Monteer 6500. Other lights I've used: Lupine Betty/Wilma R; Gloworm XS/X2; Light and Motion Seca 2500; Cateye Volt 6000; Outbound Road/Trail.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

JIMSLICK said:


> one more time anyone compare this light to something high end like a gemeni titan or lupine wilma, i have one and it just doesn't seem very bright or have much throw but hey im 59 and ptobably half blind











I don't own or have access to a 6 LED Gemini Titan or a Lupine Wilma but own all the above pictured lights that have outputs from 2000 to just under 3000 measured lumens + have both the road and trail version of the OB lights. Claiming 1500ish lumens with a very wide beam the OB trail definitely has a less intense beam and limited throw compared to any of the other lights pictured but that's to be expected. The OB trail was designed for forest use where the lines of sight are relative short and used in that invironment is the best light of ones pictured. If the trails you ride require more intensity and throw then I'd say you've got the wrong light. It's great at what it was designed for but its beam is not tuneable so not quite as flexible as some of the lights with changeable optics.
Mole


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## JIMSLICK (Nov 19, 2012)

Thanks for your reply, interesting that the magicshine beat out the other high end lights you listed especially the Lupine lights, might have to put that one on my Christmas list. Think its gonna come down to the Magicshine or the Gemeni titan thanks again


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Just watched the video of that Magicshine Monteer and was unimpressed. Emitters’ color temperature is cool so the lamp bleaches out all the dry leaves and other organic matter you see on the trail for a really lifeless effect. You could get just as much coverage and a lot better illumination from a couple cheap lamps in Neutral White 4000K, IMHO.


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## Zayphod (Nov 11, 2018)

How is the cutoff achieved in the Road edition? Can it be modded so you get the same beam height as the Trail edition, but with more throw?


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Zayphod said:


> How is the cutoff achieved in the Road edition? Can it be modded so you get the same beam height as the Trail edition, but with more throw?


It's designed into the reflector, there is no way to change it other than maybe putting some sort of diffuser on the outside of the lens, but that is very much a crude hack with no guarantee of decent results.


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## stu06 (Dec 8, 2012)

JIMSLICK said:


> Thanks for your reply, interesting that the magicshine beat out the other high end lights you listed especially the Lupine lights, might have to put that one on my Christmas list. Think its gonna come down to the Magicshine or the Gemeni titan thanks again


The Magicshine has a great, soft flood up-close in addition to having sufficient throw. I'm guessing--from the beam shots available online--that the Titan is more of a thrower with less peripheral and up-close illumination.


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## Systex (Jun 16, 2010)

Ok, I need some help. Just received a road edition light, and it sometimes refuses to turn on. It can always go into flash mode, but it seems like if the light is cold (say, less than 40 degrees), it won't turn on in regular mode. I push and hold the button for a few seconds and ... nothing. 

I'm experimenting to try to figure out was causes this, but it sort of seems like once the light warms up inside, it's fine. 

Anyone experiencing anything like this? Maybe I just got a defective light?

Edit: when the light refuses to turn on, as I hold the button, first all leds light up, then only the first and the last light up. When it works normally, first all leds light up, then they sort of pulse and all stay lit, then the light fades on. Does this help debug the problem?

Edit2: Got in touch with Matt and he's sending out a new light head and return shipping label. Gotta say, A+ customer service.


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## Glenngineer (Mar 4, 2014)

Outbound experts - sorry if this has been asked, but didn't find on the website or scrolling the thread.

What are the dimensions of the battery pack, and the length of the cable?

And more subjective - how is the cold weather performance of the battery? The run time data indicates it'll be great for my typical ride, but I'm wondering how that holds up when it's very cold. Most of my night rides are in the winter, sometimes on the road around freezing, sometimes in the woods when it's well below freezing - single digits.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

Glenngineer said:


> [...]
> What are the dimensions of the battery pack, and the length of the cable?
> [...]
> And more subjective - how is the cold weather performance of the battery?


Dimensions of battery pack: 8,5cm x 4,5cm x 5 cm (length, height, width); Cable: 34cm from battery pack to the end of the plug

At very cold weather the step down in the highest mode will occur earlier than in spring temperatures (probably after less than 1hr instead of ~1:10-1:15). Otherwise the cell needs a bit of time until it cools down, if you put the battery on the bike just before the ride (and store it before in a warm room) and put the battery in a bag (i.e. a top tube bag), the battery will need ~2 hours until the cells are completely cooled down to subfreezing temperatures.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Aluminum Gopro adapter!!! I was hoping this would provide a little extra cooling along with one of Vancbikers aluminum bar mounts but no such luck. Its shinny and looks great but attachment point on the lighthead runs a cool 90° when the top of the light is checking in at 140° (77° ambient temp/fan cooled) so poor thermal path to this accessory.
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

No point in making a finned version then. Kind of makes me wonder why the body temp is not more uniform.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

MRMOLE said:


> [...] but attachment point on the lighthead runs a cool 90° when the top of the light is checking in at 140° (77° ambient temp/fan cooled) so poor thermal path to this accessory.





Vancbiker said:


> No point in making a finned version then. Kind of makes me wonder why the body temp is not more uniform.


Having dismanteled the light once, i have some ideas why it is that way.
In the (at the moment? hidden) how-its-made section on the outbound site you can see why the lower part of the body is cooler: The heat conductivity patch (is that the correct word?) connecting the LED board and the upper housing part is at least twice as big as the one connecting the LED board and the lower housing part.
The housing parts themself are only connected thermally on the slim line where you see the housing joint. And that path is probably poor, as there is no thermal past/patch between the parts.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

biking_tg said:


> Having dismanteled the light once, i have some ideas why it is that way.
> In the (at the moment? hidden) how-its-made section on the outbound site you can see why the lower part of the body is cooler: The heat conductivity patch (is that the correct word?) connecting the LED board and the upper housing part is at least twice as big as the one connecting the LED board and the lower housing part.
> The housing parts themself are only connected thermally on the slim line where you see the housing joint. And that path is probably poor, as there is no thermal past/patch between the parts.


There is a large amount of thermal paste joining the two, but yes the upper half gets the largest thermal load while the lower half connects as much as it could on the board but won't pull much heat away using a finned gopro connector. Would just use that accessory as a stronger version.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

The bottom half in particular, and the entire light in general, seems really well designed for effective heat dissipation. Just a bit surprised at a 50F delta between the upper and lower case halves. 

Despite that, and I've said this before, if I did not have the ability to make my own lights, Outbound would be among my top picks.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Vancbiker said:


> The bottom half in particular, and the entire light in general, seems really well designed for effective heat dissipation. Just a bit surprised at a 50F delta between the upper and lower case halves.
> 
> Despite that, and I've said this before, if I did not have the ability to make my own lights, Outbound would be among my top picks.


Yea, I wish it was better thermal as well, but only so much that one can do when balancing assembly, thermal, mechanical, sealing, weight, and size, ha. But that's why there are large high fins up top to help, and then the scoop does help force air back into the area where it's making thermal contact with the LED board itself.


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## NWAtrailyguy (Aug 13, 2014)

*Bar Mount for Hangover*

Hey guys...haven't posted in awhile. I recently decided I'm a "self contained" light person, despite the lower intensity. I've been happy enough with my Blackburn Dayblazer 1100 to make the move to "self contained," but I have been excited to try the Hangover. I just received two Outbound Hangover lights today. One for helmet, and one for the bars. The GoPro mount works perfectly on my Bell helmet with the built in adapter, but I'm struggling to find a good solution for the bars. I watched a short video on this mount, and it seems like a great option. BUT...all of the ones I've found like this are not due to ship until June. I just have to figure out this handlebar mount thing, and I was hoping for something simple where the light and mount come off the bars without needing tools at all. My old Yinding with the simple rubber strap was my favorite ever.

The top swivels via screw to whatever direction you want, so it will point forward as it should. Anyone have some other options that will shop sooner. Vancbiker?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Outbound said:


> Yea, I wish it was better thermal as well, but only so much that one can do when balancing assembly, thermal, mechanical, sealing, weight, and size, ha. But that's why there are large high fins up top to help, and then the scoop does help force air back into the area where it's making thermal contact with the LED board itself.


 I couldn't help but notice how quickly the light cooled when turned off + that some of the measurements I was getting furthest away from the thermal material contact points were barely above the ambient room temperature as if the case was dissipating the heat before it could get to those areas. The lightheads temperature uniformity just seems different than what I typically see with lights constructed out of aluminum so was wondering if the construction materials you use are at least partially responsible for this?
Mole


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

NWAtrailyguy said:


> .........
> 
> The top swivels via screw to whatever direction you want, so it will point forward as it should. Anyone have some other options that will shop sooner. Vancbiker?


This MTBR thread covers what I have.....

https://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/new-gopro-mounts-1002310.html

PM or contact me through the e-mail linked in the webpage on my sig line for info.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> I couldn't help but notice how quickly the light cooled when turned off + that some of the measurements I was getting furthest away from the thermal material contact points were barely above the ambient room temperature as if the case was dissipating the heat before it could get to those areas. The lightheads temperature uniformity just seems different than what I typically see with lights constructed out of aluminum so was wondering if the construction materials you use are at least partially responsible for this?
> Mole


Yep, the thermal situation is pretty interesting. A lot of it has to do with the shape more than the material though. Let's take the gloworm X2 for example, just a solid chunk of aluminum with some cutouts. Aluminum has a higher thermal conductivity than magnesium which means that heat can move THROUGH the material quick, hence you'll see an even temperature profile across a small lighthead like the X2 fairly quickly.

However we don't give a **** about that. What matters is how quick we can get heat OUT of the light. In our operating environment which is low speed airflow the main limitation on thermal extraction is the thermal convection via air. You could have a pure copper lighthead, but it would still be limited by the convection and not be much better than aluminum or magnesium.

The only way to improve that in our situation is through increasing the surface area of the heat sink. We do that with long thin fins that are optimized for the 10-15 mph airflow, this increases the surface area significantly which in turn lets heat get wicked away from the surface much quicker. That's why you'll see the lack of a uniform temperature across the entire lighthead. Earlier prototypes for Focal were done in machined aluminum since that was easier to get a quick proto vs magnesium, and the temperature difference at the chip was minimal, to the point it could be attributed to the variance of the sensor. So the weight savings of magnesium, plus a properly designed heatsink meant that it had the same performance as aluminum.

Shape is everything in heat sinks, not material, always keep that in mind. Can even use thermally conductive plastics for LED light heat sinks, those have an even lower thermal conductivity.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

NWAtrailyguy said:


> Hey guys...haven't posted in awhile. I recently decided I'm a "self contained" light person, despite the lower intensity. I've been happy enough with my Blackburn Dayblazer 1100 to make the move to "self contained," but I have been excited to try the Hangover. I just received two Outbound Hangover lights today. One for helmet, and one for the bars. The GoPro mount works perfectly on my Bell helmet with the built in adapter, but I'm struggling to find a good solution for the bars. I watched a short video on this mount, and it seems like a great option. BUT...all of the ones I've found like this are not due to ship until June. I just have to figure out this handlebar mount thing, and I was hoping for something simple where the light and mount come off the bars without needing tools at all. My old Yinding with the simple rubber strap was my favorite ever.
> 
> The top swivels via screw to whatever direction you want, so it will point forward as it should. Anyone have some other options that will shop sooner. Vancbiker?
> 
> View attachment 1324397


Here's a couple of pictures I posted in the Hangover thread. Shows the light mounted with a Gloworm mount but also if you look on the other side of the stem there's a Vancbiker bar mount with no light.















I like the way the Gloworm mounts (position and it's a lever QR) but it  has no horizontal adjustability like Vanc's mounts or the one you posted
Mole


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## MTBMILES (Dec 27, 2007)

I found this one, the light sits higher on the bar and it would make it easy to transfer back-and-forth from a bar to a helmet mount.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

NWAtrailyguy said:


> [...] but I'm struggling to find a good solution for the bars. [...] BUT...all of the ones I've found like this are not due to ship until June.[...]


besides the one mentioned by Mole, i suggest the Ritchey GoPro universal stem mount, Lezyne direct x-lock, F3 Form-mount, Trek stem with GoPro option



Outbound said:


> Shape is everything in heat sinks, not material, always keep that in mind. Can even use thermally conductive plastics for LED light heat sinks, those have an even lower thermal conductivity.


Thanks for some more techy details in this thread, always interesting to read.:thumbsup:


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

See my last post in this thread: https://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/35mm-bar-mount-options-1117571.html . I ordered from Amazon (which will be delayed now), but you may find it elsewhere (eBay?) Or via 3rd party seller on Amazon. No tool required, aluminum, solid, fits 35mm bars, rotates to various angles, etc.

-Garry


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

I was reading some of the comments posted about the BikeRadar 15 llight comparison which didn't include any Outbound lights and found this group of posts from Outbounds loyal fans!
Mole

***click in below image to expand!***


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

MRMOLE said:


> I was reading some of the comments posted about the BikeRadar 15 llight comparison which didn't include any Outbound lights and found this group of posts from Outbounds loyal fans!
> Mole
> 
> ***click in below image to expand!***
> View attachment 1346649


It's pretty frustrating to never be asked to be considered for those kind of tests. However at the same time also lets me still stay a bit under the radar while we refine and continue to build up the product lineup.

Though I will say I've been asked dozens of times for free lights AND to pay a "reviewing" company to be placed high on a top-ten list for random websites under the guise of better SEO. Never have done it. Don't need to.

Also just as frustrating when you know that every top-ten list on the internet is just paid-for advertising. Now whenever I want an honest review on something I make it a point to add "forum" or "reddit" on the search term to get a real opinion. Can't trust these magazines or random blogs one bit.


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## Odd Kiwi (Aug 21, 2016)

Subscribed


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## moshjack (Apr 13, 2012)

My order is placed, now I'm sitting here waiting... Hope everything ships soon. Any updated ETA?


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

duplicate


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

moshjack said:


> My order is placed, now I'm sitting here waiting... Hope everything ships soon. Any updated ETA?


This is just a thought, but maybe, just maybe, you'd have better luck emailing Outbound rather than posting up in a public forum with a bunch of random people who have no idea how to answer you.

Again, just a thought...:madman:


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

moshjack said:


> My order is placed, now I'm sitting here waiting... Hope everything ships soon. Any updated ETA?





sptimmy43 said:


> This is just a thought, but maybe, just maybe, you'd have better luck emailing Outbound rather than posting up in a public forum with a bunch of random people who have no idea how to answer you.
> 
> Again, just a thought...:madman:


Or, just another thought... maybe take a look at the outbound online store. When you ordered, there was probably a note, stating you will backorder due to missing parts... when you check the store now it says "please allow 7-14 days for shipping we ware working through a very large backlog"


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

moshjack said:


> My order is placed, now I'm sitting here waiting... Hope everything ships soon. Any updated ETA?


Indeed we hope everything ships soon too. Last status update I heard from my forwarder is that the batteries are stateside awaiting being unloaded at the docks. Apparently since COVID has taken out half of the dock workers, and unloading is extremely backed up there. Our batteries shipped 7 weeks ago, normally these things take 3-4 weeks to arrive so not much we can do but wait.

Good news (well, for me at least) is that this is an incredibly massive shipment that is meant to supply all the way to the end of the year. So hopefully no stock-outs during the fall like last year. Simply couldn't air ship these parts like I have in the past, so tried to order far in advance. Even then it wasn't enough. 

In the meantime I've been building as many lights as I can, have almost 200 lightheads built, and hundreds of hangovers. So we'll have quite the supply built up to try and stay ahead of demand.

Really appreciate the patience. This **** sucks.

*EDIT* just after I posted this i checked my logistics tracking. Seems half of my massive shipment is due to arrive next Tuesday (8/4)... so that's good news! But because I always take that stuff with a little distrust, I don't want to say exactly that's when stuff will ship.


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## Varaxis (Mar 16, 2010)

Anyone interested in a hardly used Outbound Trail Edition to enable their night riding? I got the DH combo (road + trail edition) and found that I need throw for SoCal's open desert riding, so I kept the road edition for the bars. Figure someone that rides with bushes and trees lining their trail would better appreciate it.

Edit: SOLD.


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## ohahonen (Oct 31, 2019)

*Waterproofness?*

Hi Matt,

How waterproof should the focal series lightheads should be? I had a quick one hour ride in light drizzle and the light had some moisture in it. Picture attached.
is this normal or should I be worried?

Otto


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## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

Anyone had issues with their light going out when they move the cable right at the housing? I have one of the original kickstarter units if that makes a difference.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

ohahonen said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> How waterproof should the focal series lightheads should be? I had a quick one hour ride in light drizzle and the light had some moisture in it. Picture attached.
> is this normal or should I be worried?
> ...


I had this as well, and according to Matt that is to a certain extend normal as this light is not totally waterproof. It will dry out again (there is a membrane patch in the housing, see here https://www.outboundlighting.com/how-its-made/



Cerpss said:


> Anyone had issues with their light going out when they move the cable right at the housing? I have one of the original kickstarter units if that makes a difference.


That sound like you have a loose connection (see here https://www.outboundlighting.com/how-its-made/ step6&8), i'd send a mail to outbound. that shouldn't happen...


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Cerpss said:


> Anyone had issues with their light going out when they move the cable right at the housing? I have one of the original kickstarter units if that makes a difference.


Shoot me an email ([email protected]) and I'll get that fixed. We are starting to notice on older/well-used units that the frequent pulling when undoing the battery connection causes tension on the wire input at the lighthead and the wire essentially strips inside. Easy fix for us with a new input wire.

Also why wanting to move away from barrel connectors and onto other methods (such as USB PD) with our newer lights. This has really been one of the only warranty issues.

--------------------

As for moisture, what you are seeing is normal. Now if you actually get water pooling inside then obviously not good. Hard to avoid when you have a large mass of air inside the light and the humidity balance changes with the warm LED heating things up.


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## drivera (Apr 25, 2013)

Outbound, more info on the self contained bar light that I read in another thread.

I have 0 lighting, and am interested in outbound as my full lighting package. I been following you since NASIOC days when you posted about Diodedynamics light bars and starting your bike lighting gig.


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## hidperf (Jul 14, 2011)

drivera said:


> Outbound, more info on the self contained bar light that I read in another thread.
> 
> I have 0 lighting, and am interested in outbound as my full lighting package. I been following you since NASIOC days when you posted about Diodedynamics light bars and starting your bike lighting gig.


Wait a minute. Outbound is the same guy who started Diodedynamics?

That makes total sense now!


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## drivera (Apr 25, 2013)

hidperf said:


> Wait a minute. Outbound is the same guy who started Diodedynamics?
> 
> That makes total sense now!


Sorry - I didn't mean to mislead. I am not sure what the relationship was there, but I believe he was involved in level of product design/engineering in some of DiodeDynamics products.

Apologies for side-stepping the conversation, it was more of a comment of admiration since I remember reading a deep technical conversation about the importance of optics engineering in light bars and how 'OMG 5000000 LUMENS' is the marketing gimmick that many light makers use out there, instead of engineering proper optics. Which gives me confidence in Outbound. :thumbsup:


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## hidperf (Jul 14, 2011)

drivera said:


> Sorry - I didn't mean to mislead. I am not sure what the relationship was there, but I believe he was involved in level of product design/engineering in some of DiodeDynamics products.
> 
> Apologies for side-stepping the conversation, it was more of a comment of admiration since I remember reading a deep technical conversation about the importance of optics engineering in light bars and how 'OMG 5000000 LUMENS' is the marketing gimmick that many light makers use out there, instead of engineering proper optics. Which gives me confidence in Outbound. :thumbsup:


No worries. I remember when DiodeDynamics first started (I'm in STL) and I let them use one of my cars for building a kit.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

hidperf said:


> Wait a minute. Outbound is the same guy who started Diodedynamics?
> 
> That makes total sense now!


Haha, no, I'm not Paul. However I was the first engineer he hired to try and get their products to another level. So the DD stage series lightbars, the SS3, sidemarkers, Mustang turn signal, and a few other products I had my hands on. Before that I worked at Boeing for 4-5 years on the F-15 fighter jet.

The experience at Diode is what gave me the confidence to start my own business after seeing that bike lighting could use a boost. Left on amicable terms once I started shipping these lights.

We'll be dropping some more info on the next light in the next week or two. Waiting on pics from our photoshoot.


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## drivera (Apr 25, 2013)

Outbound said:


> Haha, no, I'm not Paul. However I was the first engineer he hired to try and get their products to another level. So the DD stage series lightbars, the SS3, sidemarkers, Mustang turn signal, and a few other products I had my hands on. Before that I worked at Boeing for 4-5 years on the F-15 fighter jet.
> 
> The experience at Diode is what gave me the confidence to start my own business after seeing that bike lighting could use a boost. Left on amicable terms once I started shipping these lights.
> 
> We'll be dropping some more info on the next light in the next week or two. Waiting on pics from our photoshoot.


Hurry!! I need lights!  I'll send you pics of mine on my steel middlechild. I'm missing out cuz I can't ride, it's getting dark quick


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## woodyak (Jan 20, 2004)

Outbound said:


> We'll be dropping some more info on the next light in the next week or two. Waiting on pics from our photoshoot.


Wait, what? New light? Where's the fan-fare?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

woodyak said:


> Wait, what? New light? Where's the fan-fare?


Soon my friend. Soon. 

With Trail and Hangover, we absolutely needed pre-sales to fund the tooling to make it happen. Our business is strong enough now that we don't need that, and didn't even need to take out a loan or anything to fund the tooling of this new light.

So instead of fanfare and 3-8 months of waiting, we are building the supply and going to launch it with only a 2-3 week wait, hopefully less than that actually. We wanted this launched by mid-august or early September but as expected we ran into some minor issues and worked to get them corrected.

A lot of the major bike websites have gotten a production sample for reviewing and to help get the word out. We are pretty proud of this one.


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## drivera (Apr 25, 2013)

I guess I'm waiting then


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

I've been running my Trail Edition for nearly a year now and I have been having issues with the handlebar mount it comes with. When things get bumpy, it slips on the bar and points downward. It dawned on me that I could improve the situation by switching to the GoPro style mount and using one of the many offerings for handlebar mount. I do move the light between different bikes fairly often, so I'd like for it to be something like a quick release clamp for convenience. Suggestions? Thanks


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## J_Bone (Dec 14, 2014)

ewarnerusa said:


> I've been running my Trail Edition for nearly a year now and I have been having issues with the handlebar mount it comes with. When things get bumpy, it slips on the bar and points downward. It dawned on me that I could improve the situation by switching to the GoPro style mount and using one of the many offerings for handlebar mount. I do move the light between different bikes fairly often, so I'd like for it to be something like a quick release clamp for convenience. Suggestions? Thanks


Yeah, I had the same issue and went with the K edge GoPro mount. It does require an Allen wrench but it doesn't take to long as I transfer it back and forth between bikes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

If your moving the light from bike to bike these Gloworm QR mounts work great for lightheads and smaller self-contained lights.
Mole

https://www.action-led-lights.com/collections/gloworm-parts-and-accessories/products/gloworm-quick-release-handlebar-mount

https://www.action-led-lights.com/collections/gloworm-parts-and-accessories/products/universal-adapter-for-gloworm-quick-release-handlebar-mount


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

@mrmole that looks like exactly what I'm envisioning. It looks like I would need both items that you've linked to? One is the bar mount and the other is the gopro adapter for it?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

ewarnerusa said:


> @mrmole that looks like exactly what I'm envisioning. It looks like I would need both items that you've linked to? One is the bar mount and the other is the gopro adapter for it?


Yes, you'll need both items.
Mole


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## J_Bone (Dec 14, 2014)

ewarnerusa said:


> @mrmole that looks like exactly what I'm envisioning. It looks like I would need both items that you've linked to? One is the bar mount and the other is the gopro adapter for it?


It does come with a small GoPro adapter, but they also have an extended GoPro you purchase for $20. I bought the extended one just so I could lose it....lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

J_Bone said:


> It does come with a small GoPro adapter, but they also have an extended GoPro you purchase for $20. I bought the extended one just so I could lose it....lol


But the included GoPro Adapter from the Focal series doesn't help if you don't order the respective counterpart which attaches to the Gloworm QR holder.
That 20 USD Holder is only of interest, if you want to mount the light underneath a bike computer.


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## J_Bone (Dec 14, 2014)

biking_tg said:


> But the included GoPro Adapter from the Focal series doesn't help if you don't order the respective counterpart which attaches to the Gloworm QR holder.
> That 20 USD Holder is only of interest, if you want to mount the light underneath a bike computer.


Good to know. I've never used or seen the Gloworm holder, just going off of the K-Edge GoPro adapters I've seen and use.

I bought the underneath adapter for my road bike and I lost it before I could use it. So now I just transfer mounts back and forth.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MOBH (Nov 25, 2017)

Cerpss said:


> Anyone had issues with their light going out when they move the cable right at the housing? I have one of the original kickstarter units if that makes a difference.


Yes, same for me: I have one of the Kickstarter lights.


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## MOBH (Nov 25, 2017)

I think the new light is a tail light: I cannot wait to see the optimised lens at the back as beam design is Outbound’s strength.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> ...If your moving the light from bike to bike these Gloworm QR mounts work great for lightheads and smaller self-contained lights.
> Mole
> 
> https://www.action-led-lights.com/collections/gloworm-parts-and-accessories/products/gloworm-quick-release-handlebar-mount
> ...


Thanks for posting this GoPro option. I have no need for one of these at the moment but if I ever decide to run the XP3 on the bars I'd like something that has a QR clamp that can easily be removed.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

MOBH said:


> I think the new light is a tail light: I cannot wait to see the optimised lens at the back as beam design is Outbound's strength.


Outbound stated here that first the new bar mounted light is released, then a self contained road light and lastly the tail light... so you'd have to wait for that at least until next year...


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## majorjake (Sep 5, 2017)

So.....I should buy the DH Package or wait?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

majorjake said:


> So.....I should buy the DH Package or wait?


I think depends on your budget. New light will be priced at $245, Trail is $195 and the "Evo DH Package" will reflect that too.

Also, some advantages of the Trail are that it is an external battery pack, so can have a spare battery pack and swap it if extra long runtimes are important (such as endurance racing), while Evo will be internal battery. While Evo can be piggybacked with USB-C, the power drain on high will still outpace the max charging input so won't be able to have it on full-high with a powerbank constantly like Hangover.

So the answer, as most things in life, is "it depends".


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

biking_tg said:


> Outbound stated here that first the new bar mounted light is released, then a self contained road light and lastly the tail light... so you'd have to wait for that at least until next year...


Correct, this is our goals:

Mid-Novebmer: Launch Evo (self contained bar light for Trail riding as an evolution to trail).

Late Spring, Early Summer: Launch a self contained Road light, similar in size to Hangover designed for commuters/those that want something slim and can pop it off their bike quick before dipping into work or the bar (remember when we could do that?) and put it in their pocket.

Depending on our engineering development we hope to launch a tail light at the same time as the self contained Road light so we can have a strong "package". The Downhill Package is one of our biggest sellers now so we know the importance of combining lighting into single pacakges.

As for Fall 2021, well we gotta keep you guys guessing right?  Got some big ideas that will take a fair amount of testing/development which we'll be able to do now that Tom is coming onboard full-time.


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## woodyak (Jan 20, 2004)

Outbound said:


> I think depends on your budget. New light will be priced at $245, Trail is $195 and the "Evo DH Package" will reflect that too.
> 
> Also, some advantages of the Trail are that it is an external battery pack, so can have a spare battery pack and swap it if extra long runtimes are important (such as endurance racing), while Evo will be internal battery. While Evo can be piggybacked with USB-C, the power drain on high will still outpace the max charging input so won't be able to have it on full-high with a powerbank constantly like Hangover.
> 
> So the answer, as most things in life, is "it depends".


Interesting... I'm running a Hangover on the helmet and the bars and still trying to work out the best way to run it. Our rides generally run about 1.45 to 2 hours with several quick stops. The trails are slow tech with the occasional high speed punch. Leaving it on adaptive mode doesn't work great because I have to leave the lights on during our stops or else the light burns out too quickly. So, I've been playing with running both on medium and crank up the helmet to hi occasionally for the quick bursts. The problem is we have some riders with super bright lights using battery packs, so their light overpowers my lights towards the end of the ride.

So, would the Evo on my bars, instead of the Hangover, be a significantly better situation? I'm used to running my brightest light on my helmet, so I'd have to play with running my bar Hangover on bright and my helmet light on medium to see how that works.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

woodyak said:


> So, would the Evo on my bars, instead of the Hangover, be a significantly better situation?


I am no Outbound, but i know the hangover. The beamshots of the Evo that Outbound posted in the Hangover thread (post #605) show a beam pattern with a much wider center spot, while the hangover has quite a narrow spot (which is nice on the helmet, because it doesn't waste lumens and allows still a good throw in the direction that you look)
So i'd say a Evo on the bar is a different level. from the pictures i do guess that the bright spot from the hangover on high will be at a similar brightness (or brighter) than the center of the Evo.


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## xy9ine (Feb 2, 2005)

sooooo... any hint on what the black friday sale might look like? deliberating pulling the trigger or holding out.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

xy9ine said:


> sooooo... any hint on what the black friday sale might look like? deliberating pulling the trigger or holding out.


We'll have a BF sale similar to last year.

If there are any outstanding orders before BF due to being out of stock (which we don't anticipate by then) then we'll match the discount and refund the difference.


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## drivera (Apr 25, 2013)

Waiting on the EVO!!!


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## majorjake (Sep 5, 2017)

What was the BF deal like last year? I'm new to the market.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

majorjake said:


> What was the BF deal like last year? I'm new to the market.


Looks like I was doing roughly $20-25 off on Trails, and similar on hangovers. I had to go back and look.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Is there extra battery pack? 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

Picard said:


> Is there extra battery pack?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


https://www.outboundlighting.com/product/battery-pack/
?


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> View attachment 1372577
> ...
> If your moving the light from bike to bike these Gloworm QR mounts work great for lightheads and smaller self-contained lights.
> Mole
> ...


I am now on my second set of these mounts, I broke the first while stubbornly trying to clamp the quick release down when things were too tight. Broke the plastic. But now that I'm more careful with the mounting, I have to say I'm disappointed with their ability to hold the light steady. I have initially not had any better luck with the light staying firmly in place than with the OEM mount. My thought is because the Go-Pro style mounting screw nut is held in place by the plastic molding. No matter how hard you twist the finger screw, it can't get any tighter because of how loosely the plastic holds the nut in place on the other end. I tried scuffing up the tabs in increase friction, but the light still tips once the bike starts bouncing. Before my last ride I used needle nose pliers to grab as much of the nut as I could and I could get it a bit tighter when twisting the screw. This was in improvement, but I still had to adjust the light more than once during the ride. Why is this so hard??!! LOL


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## EchoTony (Nov 18, 2020)

The inherent problem with plastic parts.... But you can add some friction to the system to help out. 
You can try a few items, but I would recommend you start with some thin rubber and place it in between the slots of the mount and then pass the screw through that. An alternative is to place 500 grit sandpaper instead of rubber. That will give the friction needed to stop it from slopping around.



ewarnerusa said:


> I am now on my second set of these mounts, I broke the first while stubbornly trying to clamp the quick release down when things were too tight. Broke the plastic. But now that I'm more careful with the mounting, I have to say I'm disappointed with their ability to hold the light steady. I have initially not had any better luck with the light staying firmly in place than with the OEM mount. My thought is because the Go-Pro style mounting screw nut is held in place by the plastic molding. No matter how hard you twist the finger screw, it can't get any tighter because of how loosely the plastic holds the nut in place on the other end. I tried scuffing up the tabs in increase friction, but the light still tips once the bike starts bouncing. Before my last ride I used needle nose pliers to grab as much of the nut as I could and I could get it a bit tighter when twisting the screw. This was in improvement, but I still had to adjust the light more than once during the ride. Why is this so hard??!! LOL


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

EchoTony said:


> The inherent problem with plastic parts.... But you can add some friction to the system to help out.
> You can try a few items, but I would recommend you start with some thin rubber and place it in between the slots of the mount and then pass the screw through that. An alternative is to place 500 grit sandpaper instead of rubber. That will give the friction needed to stop it from slopping around.


That's a good idea. I think it may be hard to get anything in-between the slots. I may try to scuff both component surfaces with sandpaper first, so far I only scuffed plastic on one of the surfaces.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

ewarnerusa said:


> I am now on my second set of these mounts, I broke the first while stubbornly trying to clamp the quick release down when things were too tight. Broke the plastic. But now that I'm more careful with the mounting, I have to say I'm disappointed with their ability to hold the light steady. I have initially not had any better luck with the light staying firmly in place than with the OEM mount. My thought is because the Go-Pro style mounting screw nut is held in place by the plastic molding. No matter how hard you twist the finger screw, it can't get any tighter because of how loosely the plastic holds the nut in place on the other end. I tried scuffing up the tabs in increase friction, but the light still tips once the bike starts bouncing. Before my last ride I used needle nose pliers to grab as much of the nut as I could and I could get it a bit tighter when twisting the screw. This was in improvement, but I still had to adjust the light more than once during the ride. Why is this so hard??!! LOL


I didn't use that setup very much and my light is currently on loan so I'm unable to mess around with it to try to figure out something. I had the light mounted on my road/gravel bike so it didn't see anything very rough but don't remember having any issues with it. I did however have the same problem your having using my Gloworm CX (200+ grams) and never got that light to stay stable with that mount. I was able to put a little more torque on the thumbscrew by using a screwdriver rather than my fingers which helped but still wasn't enough but the acorn nut never moved in the plastic housing on my mount. Is it possible that your bottoming out the thumbscrew in the acorn nut and that's preventing it from getting any tighter?
Mole


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

MRMOLE said:


> I didn't use that setup very much and my light is currently on loan so I'm unable to mess around with it to try to figure out something. I had the light mounted on my road/gravel bike so it didn't see anything very rough but don't remember having any issues with it. I did however have the same problem your having using my Gloworm CX (200+ grams) and never got that light to stay stable with that mount. I was able to put a little more torque on the thumbscrew by using a screwdriver rather than my fingers which helped but still wasn't enough but the acorn nut never moved in the plastic housing on my mount. Is it possible that your bottoming out the thumbscrew in the acorn nut and that's preventing it from getting any tighter?
> Mole


I don't think it is bottoming out. In fact, there are barely enough threads exposed for it to start screwing down. I am using the rubber O-ring on the thumbscrew side since that it is how it came out of the packaging.


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## wschruba (Apr 13, 2012)

Ritchey makes a faceplate-mounted go-pro mount. Check it out and see if it will fit the spacing of the stem you have. Quite slick/minimalist.


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## sptimmy43 (Jul 27, 2018)

ewarnerusa said:


> That's a good idea. I think it may be hard to get anything in-between the slots. I may try to scuff both component surfaces with sandpaper first, so far I only scuffed plastic on one of the surfaces.


Try using carbon assembly paste.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

Anyone active in this forum who bought recently a Focal Trail or Road Light? Would be interested to know whether newer lights still have that early stepdown (which can't be overriden) in high/adaptive mode at ~50% battery capacity, as older lights have (mine from beginning of 2019)


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

I had a warranty issue with my road a few months ago and ended up with a new lighthead. It's on loan to LBS manager currently but will make a mental note to test that when I get it back.
Mole


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## Skooks (Dec 24, 2008)

Where is the best place to buy replacement battery extension cables? I am in Canada and don't want to spend a tonne of $$ on shipping. Thanks!


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Skooks said:


> Where is the best place to buy replacement battery extension cables? I am in Canada and don't want to spend a tonne of $$ on shipping. Thanks!


If you need a replacement of anything that might have broken, just shoot us an email and we'll send one out.


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## Zayphod (Nov 11, 2018)

My Trail got little foggy on my last rainy ride and now is acting weird - it turns on as soon as I plug the battery.
I did let it naturally dry out for couple of days, but I guess some moisture got near the switch, which is still clicking nicely, but it doesn't respond at all.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Zayphod said:


> My Trail got little foggy on my last rainy ride and now is acting weird - it turns on as soon as I plug the battery.
> I did let it naturally dry out for couple of days, but I guess some moisture got near the switch, which is still clicking nicely, but it doesn't respond at all.


Shoot us an email, [email protected] for any support, will get you taken care of.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

Outbound said:


> Correct, this are our goals:
> [...]
> Late Spring, Early Summer:* Launch a self contained Road light*, similar in size to Hangover designed for commuters/those that want something slim and can pop it off their bike quick before dipping into work or the bar (remember when we could do that?) and put it in their pocket.
> Depending on our engineering development we hope to launch* a tail light at the same time* as the self contained Road light so we can have a strong "package". The Downhill Package is one of our biggest sellers now so we know the importance of combining lighting into single pacakges.
> ...


Mr Outbound, Late spring/early summer has passed. What's going on with the development of that promised self contained road light and that tail light? Furthemore, are you still planning to launch a road light with high beam and remote?



Outbound said:


> We want there to be the option for it with bike computer mounts before we launch our new Road light. We are making a custom shoe so that the mount can installed under a computer mount and still retain the quick release functions.





Outbound said:


> We want there to be the option for it with bike computer mounts before we launch our new Road light. We are making a custom shoe so that the mount can installed under a computer mount and still retain the quick release functions.


So fall is now the new ETA for this road light? Is this still feasible or will winter be more likely?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

We have our first production test shots completing the end of this month. So we'll evaluate everything and hopefully green-light the production run in early-mid September. We are now anticipating we'll have a similar release schedule as Evo last year (week before Black Friday). As it will take a month to produce the minimum quantity we are pushing for.

We are trying out some new materials, thermally conductive plastics to improve the fit and finish, along with better dimensional quality and improved assembly. Took us a solid month and a half going back and forth with our inject molder making all the minor changes required to successfully inject this material, along with the improved overmolding and screen printing. We are pretty excited to see this evolution in our production. Very very complex tool with lots of undercuts and sliders, quality should be fantastic though.

A high beam Road won't come out till way later though.


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## zapotec (Jul 21, 2020)

Outbound said:


> We have our first production test shots completing the end of this month. So we'll evaluate everything and hopefully green-light the production run in early-mid September. We are now anticipating we'll have a similar release schedule as Evo last year (week before Black Friday). As it will take a month to produce the minimum quantity we are pushing for.


Any spoiler for estimated pricing information and form factor yet? Would it shaped like current Trail EVO with shared cam lock mount mechanism?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

zapotec said:


> Any spoiler for estimated pricing information and form factor yet? Would it shaped like current Trail EVO with shared cam lock mount mechanism?


When I have a firm, ready to rock production date we'll start dropping the hints. But here is a top-down view. 










Form factor similar to hangover, little larger due to the high capacity 21700 cell. Working with the cam-lock mechanism as that is going to be our "universal" mount. The newly revised V2 mounts solve all the issues the first one had, and feels amazing. Pricing to be similar to the current Road. We are trying to slot this in the "middle of the range", similar to where a more powerful Hangover V2/Pro/whatever we call it would slot in for the MTB side of things.


Thermally conductive plastics that has proven to be a huge PITA to acquire, but we got it. Really excited to put this through the paces to potentially expand out to other products in the future.
USB-C pass through as always.
Proper cutoff beam pattern similar to road, but much improved since the reflector design was free, unlike the Focal Road/Trail that was a bit compromised to use the same housing, and Trail was developed first and Road was developed to fit after.
There will be a Quick-release "shoe" that works with GoPro mounts (aka under a bike computer) that'll be available at launch.
Lots of small improvements internally from the lessons learned on Evo and Hangover to improve charging, power discharge, battery monitoring, software tweaks, etc. Easily our most advanced light yet.

I'll start up a new thread when we launch.


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## zapotec (Jul 21, 2020)

Outbound said:


> Thermally conductive plastics that has proven to be a huge PITA to acquire, but we got it. Really excited to put this through the paces to potentially expand out to other products in the future.


Thanks for early render spoiler and some meticulous information.

There's always new tech putting into the new OL headlight which make your headlight quite unique, this year we have interesting thermally conductive plastics. I assume the road one model still employs magnesium body, right?

I am a bit "plastic-holic" to a certain degree, albeit limited to Nylon based powder so far. Black PA12 Nylon has been always to go materials when I produced functional end use parts in small quantities, so your method utilizing some of thermally conductive plastics concept is picking my interest. Keen to share some nitty gritty here about that plastics 

There's still not common thermally conductive plastic powder for sintered material (SLS), not even MJF lol, it seems still limited for traditional molding.

Sorry for bugging you another question,

Is Black Friday sales still applies for Trail EVO this year? Assuming the timing of your road release schedule is right on time, I would order them together for saving on shipping cost.

Total shipping for the APAC region is $248 (EVO price), not mentioning tax and handling fee, it would cost almost $350, because I am responsible for my own tax and duties, I would prefer to squeeze as much deal if possible together with merged shipment costs.

Is your road version having a hole similar with EVO Trail where cable manager installed? I plan to produce and attach lightweight MJF parts there for myself. Also is that threaded or just simply hole? I don't have EVO Trail yet so I looking around some of your customer photos as reference, but is not fully showing the hole well.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

zapotec said:


> There's always new tech putting into the new OL headlight which make your headlight quite unique, this year we have interesting thermally conductive plastics. I assume the road one model still employs magnesium body, right?
> 
> I am a bit "plastic-holic" to a certain degree, albeit limited to Nylon based powder so far. Black PA12 Nylon has been always to go materials when I produced functional end use parts in small quantities, so your method utilizing some of thermally conductive plastics concept is picking my interest. Keen to share some nitty gritty here about that plastics
> 
> ...


The new road light is going to feature the thermally conductive plastics as the substrate for our overmolded body. We will be evaluating it's use for really high power stuff after the initial launch with some custom boards and stuff for prototypes to better understand the limitations and such. The biggest thing I'm most excited for is far better dimensional stability and durability to things like falls and drops as well as improved surface finish. Things like mag or aluminum always require powdercoating (can't cost effectively anodize or plate magnesium unfortunately) which can be inconsistent, or chip when it falls onto a sharp object (such as a rock). The plastics will be the same color throughout, and since it's nylon based it's very stiff and durable.

It'll let us experiment with smaller design features (more fins for example) and exploit some really cool things such as microtexturing to improve the surface area. The thermal conductivity is obviously lower but as I've mentioned time and time again, that one stat is just a part of the whole thermodynamic problem. Heat loads, surface area, wind speed, etc.

One interesting thing to note, we can actually run the LED's hotter with this material because in the past we've been "thermally limited" by how hot a lamp gets to the touch. For example on the Focal lights we can run the LED hotter but the housing would get dangerously hot to the touch, so we limit the power at a standstill based on how hot the housing gets, not so much what the LED can handle. However with thermally conductive plastics because it's a much lower conductivity, it takes longer for the heat to "reach" your fingertips vs metal, so the surface temperature can be similar, but it won't feel as hot when you pick it up. Now if you hold the hot lamp for a solid minute, you'll feel the heat, but it isn't as instantaneous as an aluminum or magnesium housing.

That being said. This isn't a new breakthrough material. Been used in automotive stuff for a while, and even Hella work lights have used them in limited applications. Though the Hella lamp ones are more graphite based: HELLA CoolPoly® Thermally Conductive Plastic Lamp Housings

The main issue is that it requires a huge MOQ commitment to secure the material since it's not something just sitting on the shelf somewhere. In the past never was at the scale that we could take advantage of it but we are getting to that point. Also getting to that scale that we can try and implement more design features since we can afford the pricier tooling and better materials.

Won't divulge much of what we are already working on for 2022 and 2023, but rest assured we are definitely pushing the boundaries of what can be done for bike lights not just in raw output but the whole product function as a whole from mounting, user interface, beam pattern, battery life, etc. As is our driving goal. We'll never be the "brightest" in raw lumens or things like that because we know that's not what makes a great lamp for bike riding.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

Outbound said:


> A high beam Road won't come out till way later though.


That's a bummer... Could you give a rough release date? 2024? Earlier?


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

biking_tg said:


> That's a bummer... Could you give a rough release date? 2024? Earlier?


Not sure, when we get around to it really, ha. We have an aggressive product road-map we have planned, but each thing requires a little work to make it successful, for example to have a high-low beam we need a great remote. We don't plan on just doing a typical watch battery with a switch, we want something more interesting than that, and something no one else is doing so.... yea, you'll see soon. 

We are also looking into how we can dual-purpose our optics and PCBA's for ebikes as that is quickly growing into a bigger market even in the US.

The success and volume of this new road light is going to be the barometer to see if even worth doing a hi-low type road light with an internal battery, or if we do just need to focus on more MTB and e-bike type lights. Have to keep in mind that we are still tiny, only 3 of us total, so can't just whip out new lights every few months like magicshine, and we like to be far more methodical and come out with something that's truly different.


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## rebaths (Jul 4, 2006)

Outbound said:


> We have our first production test shots completing the end of this month. So we'll evaluate everything and hopefully green-light the production run in early-mid September. We are now anticipating we'll have a similar release schedule as Evo last year (week before Black Friday). As it will take a month to produce the minimum quantity we are pushing for.
> 
> A high beam Road won't come out till way later though.





Outbound said:


> Not sure, when we get around to it really, ha. We have an aggressive product road-map we have planned, but each thing requires a little work to make it successful, for example to have a high-low beam we need a great remote.


Hi guys, can you help me understand the difference in the new 'upcoming' road light which I believe is to be self-contained vs. this "high beam" model? 

I feel like I missed part of the conversation. It seems like you are getting close to releasing a self-contained road light (I assume it will have a beam cut-off) but you mention the 'high beam' model will require a remote control, and that is way off in the future.

This would be my first Outbound Lighting purchase (and I'm looking forward to it since you seem like really nice people!) When I see the current offering (Road Edition) has the remote-mount battery pack, I have flashbacks to my first 'bright' bike light (NiteRider Firestorm) That battery pack was.. heavy. 

On your website, the Road Edition doesn't seem to have a "Specs" section like the EVO and Hangover, so I'm not sure of the ballpark lumen output of the Road Edition is. (I read your articles about perceived brightness and FL-1 testing, and I know that lumens ≠ lux so I understand you don't like to spew raw lumen numbers in a contest for the brightest light.)

Thanks! Take care.


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

rebaths said:


> Hi guys, can you help me understand the difference in the new 'upcoming' road light which I believe is to be self-contained vs. this "high beam" model?
> 
> I feel like I missed part of the conversation. It seems like you are getting close to releasing a self-contained road light (I assume it will have a beam cut-off) but you mention the 'high beam' model will require a remote control, and that is way off in the future.
> 
> ...


Upcoming light = low beam only road light that is fully self contained with a single 21700 cell. Think the road edition, except like a Hangover+ with a more powerful battery, and a much improved beam designed for road riding, commuting, and gravel.

Future light = low beam and high beam that requires a remote that we are developing. This will depend on the success of our new road light, and see if we can make a big enough dent and educate enough riders on the pros of a cutoff beam pattern on road riding, and how it makes road riding that much more enjoyable.

Thanks for pointing out the specs missing on Road. We literally launched an entirely new website yesterday, and still a lot of things to clean up in various places. Focus was mostly on hangover, evo, and the Evo DH package as that's our bread and butter right now. Will try to get the Road listing cleaned up in the coming days.


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

Outbound said:


> When I have a firm, ready to rock production date we'll start dropping the hints. But here is a top-down view.





Outbound said:


> I'll start up a new thread when we launch.


C'mon Mister, open up that new thread. You sneak previewed the light anyway on your new homepage in frontal view 



Outbound said:


> A high beam Road won't come out till way later though.


Well, a pity. Luck though for B&M, i gave their new "monster" (in dimensions and weight literally) IQ-XL a try and i am quite happy. I think it will do its job until you bring that high beam light into market (unless someone else brings a new and good light with high beam to the market...)


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

MRMOLE said:


> I had a warranty issue with my road a few months ago and ended up with a new lighthead. It's on loan to LBS manager currently but will make a mental note to test that when I get it back.
> Mole


@MRMOLE did you have any chance so far to check whether your newer lighthead still blocks the adaptive, the high and the medium mode if the battery state of charge is below ~50-60%?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

biking_tg said:


> @MRMOLE did you have any chance so far to check whether your newer lighthead still blocks the adaptive, the high and the medium mode if the battery state of charge is below ~50-60%?


Sorry and shame on me. I've not retrieved the light from the friend I loaned it to months ago. I see what I can do to get it back so I can run that test for you.
Mole


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

biking_tg said:


> @MRMOLE did you have any chance so far to check whether your newer lighthead still blocks the adaptive, the high and the medium mode if the battery state of charge is below ~50-60%?


I didn't test the light with my light meter but did take it on a ride last night and had full usage of all the modes till down to the last of five battery life lights indicated so much improved. I'd forgotten how nice this light works + great weather (low winds/80° ride temps) made for a blissful 38 mi. after dinner ride.
Mole


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## Outbound (Aug 23, 2017)

Well it's been 4 years since we did the kickstarter and launched Outbound. But today we realized that we are out of the Trail Editions. We made our last order of Trail reflectors several months ago anticipating this to come.

Evo sells 10x as many as the original Trail and it takes a lot of effort to build up the Trail Editions. So with that we quietly have discontinued the original light. We still have enough spare parts and stuff to help with warranty for years to come, but it's now the ole gal's turn to go upstate to the light farm where it can ride around freely on someones handlebars.

We still have the Focal Road's going for a while, at least until Detour launches!


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## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

Outbound said:


> Well it's been 4 years since we did the kickstarter and launched Outbound. But today we realized that we are out of the Trail Editions. We made our last order of Trail reflectors several months ago anticipating this to come.
> 
> Evo sells 10x as many as the original Trail and it takes a lot of effort to build up the Trail Editions. So with that we quietly have discontinued the original light. We still have enough spare parts and stuff to help with warranty for years to come, but it's now the ole gal's turn to go upstate to the light farm where it can ride around freely on someones handlebars.
> 
> We still have the Focal Road's going for a while, at least until Detour launches!


I hope you have lots of spare parts (or nothing breaks) because I'm going to run my Focal into the ground


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## biking_tg (Dec 27, 2018)

thumbs up for the @Outbound customer service. Although the focal series is discontinued, i still got spare parts with my order of the Detour


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