# I'd hate to own a LBS now



## fatcat (Mar 11, 2006)

A friend of mine owns a bike shop and has late payments due (his mechanic told me)
and didn't buy hardly any 2012 bikes because of this and also the 2011 are still on the floor.
Its a small shop in Los Angeles that carries GT, Haro and Diamondback. He invested $2 million in the shop and has 2 FT workers. Repairs keep the place going.

So please support your LBS! I don't parts-wise (can't buy something knowing full well
I can get it lots cheaper in 3 days by mail) But I do spend heaping dollars at my LBS 
with wheel building and buying frames. :thumbsup:

PS--The internet is killing off old time brick and mortar stores but behind the scenes
warehouses in God-knows-where seems to be flourishing. I guess its just a switcheroo
of how business is done. Some ppl hate it, some love it. I think they can both survive with the right tactics.


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## IndecentExposure (Sep 25, 2006)

The economy ebbs and flows. Things will turn around. But you've got to get creative on business.


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## Super66 (Mar 20, 2012)

Retail Sucks today.


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

I love my LBS and even order parts from them even knowing I can get it cheaper and quicker online. My LBS is that awesome that they deserve the business. I'd hate to see them go out of business so I go the extra mile. I don't think they are in any trouble though, I see Ibis's and Pivots walking out that door often.


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## one incredible donkey (Jul 19, 2007)

What a bunch of nonsense. If they can't compete, they're going to lose. It's a business, not a charity.


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## matt00mck (Jan 16, 2011)

Me: "I'm looking for a wider MTB handlebar, what do you have?"
LBS: "Oh look at these! (hands me a 680mm aluminum bar) Widest we have in stock: $80.00"
Me: "(AYFKM?) Gotta run thanks."


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## freighttrainuphill (Feb 3, 2012)

I support my LBS fully. I buy bikes and parts from them, never online. I've been shopping there since 1987, and they have always treated me very well. In fact, this thread just reminded me that I need to email the owner the links to my latest ride videos. He asked me to do that because he enjoys watching them.

It also doesn't hurt that I live two blocks away from the LBS.


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## wintersolstice (Feb 26, 2012)

My LBS is really great, and so I pour a TON of money into them (building my whole 29er from there), however my local Performance Bikes is a disaster.
Everything is "well, we don't know when we'll have x" or "it'll be 3 days and $120 to adjust brakes" etc.

So, seems here the LBS is doing better than the big box!


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## Funrover (Oct 4, 2006)

freighttrainuphill said:


> It also doesn't hurt that I live two blocks away from the LBS.


It'd hurt me, the wife would be rather upset! LOL


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## wintersolstice (Feb 26, 2012)

Funrover said:


> It'd hurt me, the wife would be rather upset! LOL


I sympathize! I go past mine on the way home from work... every day... and look in the window


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

Welcome to the electronic frontier where if you play your cards right, you never have to leave home for anything. It's getting closer and closer to being able to get anything you need by pushing a button. 

I jokingly say that we will soon begin to evolve into nothing more than brains living in a fish bowl, communicating telepathically. There would no longer be any need for a body.

Our parents are in the most shock over this. They were the last generation to do EVERYTHING physically. Now, you just push a button to get what you need/want. It's making us lazy. Things are too easy from a physically demanding POV. We are fatter than we use to be as a population. This is partly why.

Now, any business who does not have an online sales website attached is down right foolish! There's plenty of money to be made for any of us who can use our brains.


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## freighttrainuphill (Feb 3, 2012)

wintersolstice said:


> I sympathize! I go past mine on the way home from work... every day... and look in the window


My LBS puts ride and race posters on the front windows, so I always end up looking at those, and then at the nice road bikes in the front (they keep the mountain bikes further back where they're harder to see from outside).


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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

freighttrainuphill said:


> My LBS puts ride and race posters on the front windows, so I always end up looking at those, and then at the nice road bikes in the front (they keep the mountain bikes further back where they're harder to see from outside).


That's great marketing if you consider that your LBS is probably located in the big city on a road where road bikers ride by.

In Big Bear, CA the shops have mtn bikes in the front window or outside to see since there's far more trail/dirt riding to do than road riding.


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## swingset (Oct 14, 2010)

fatcat said:


> A friend of mine owns a bike shop and has late payments due (his mechanic told me)
> and didn't buy hardly any 2012 bikes because of this and also the 2011 are still on the floor.
> Its a small shop in Los Angeles that carries GT, Haro and Diamondback. He invested $2 million in the shop and has 2 FT workers. Repairs keep the place going.
> 
> ...


Ya know, my local shop carries GT & Haro, which by themselves would probably put him out of business - but he also carries Specialized and deals a lot in closeout, last-year's models, and the like.

He's thriving, in fact he just expanded and hired two more techs.

So, you do the math. If it's the internet and warehouses - then he should be out of business. If your friend was doing it right, and selling what the market wants where the market is buying, he'd be in the same shape.

Retail is hard, but that doesn't mean impossible. It weeds out the guys who aren't very good at it, and right quickly. That's all.


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## wintersolstice (Feb 26, 2012)

Here it's a combo of street bikes and trail bikes outside, but the windows are clear


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## freighttrainuphill (Feb 3, 2012)

ambassadorhawg said:


> That's great marketing if you consider that your LBS is probably located in the big city on a road where road bikers ride by.
> 
> In Big Bear, CA the shops have mtn bikes in the front window or outside to see since there's far more trail/dirt riding to do than road riding.


When they're open for business they put the beach cruisers and city/commuter bikes outside, most likely to attract the attention of the many casual and commuter cyclists who ride by.


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## CyclesnIPAs (Jan 22, 2012)

Im the kind of person where if I cant hold or see it 1st hand I dont want it. As fast, cheap or "convenient" the internet is for getting parts and accessories I prefer to spend my money locally at my lbs' where I can carry the object around with me looking for more objects to do more damage to my bank account lol!


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## redmr2_man (Jun 10, 2008)

matt00mck said:


> Me: "I'm looking for a wider MTB handlebar, what do you have?"
> LBS: "Oh look at these! (hands me a 680mm aluminum bar) Widest we have in stock: $80.00"
> Me: "(AYFKM?) Gotta run thanks."


this. x1000.

I had an LBS want to charge me 700$ for XT brakes. I laughed, hard.

I don't mind spending a few bucks more than online, especially on little parts or stuff I need right away.

But some of these local bike shops are just raaaaaping prices, of course nobody is gunna spend that much damn money on brakes.


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## fatcat (Mar 11, 2006)

If a lot of LBS (if you own one and are reading this) can afford to get an account with QBP,
then you can start an online parts business without even buying one part.

Quality Bicycle Products: Bikes, Wholesale Bicycle Parts, Wholesale Bicycle distribution

I bought some stuff from 2 online stores that are QBP and saved quite a bit of moolah. They like
I stated don't have jackshlt in stock but if you know what the product is, QBP has great prices which is handed down to the customer. Everyone is happy. The manufacturer, QPB and the LBS.


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## AndyN (Jan 12, 2004)

fatcat said:


> So please support your LBS! I don't parts-wise (can't buy something knowing full well
> I can get it lots cheaper in 3 days by mail)


Ummm... kinda contradicting yourself, eh?


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## OP4guy (Jul 16, 2011)

I support both my lbs when I can but won't do it to the loss of money. If it's an item within $5-10 sure, I can swing it as I will even out with shipping or need it right now. Aside from that most of my parts are done online. 

I do go through them for install work if it's something I would rather not do. This week it will be a bb and crank install. Since I bought my bike from them it's just the install labor and they tune the gears and brakes for life. I do kick tires in there quite a bit though. It's about the only place you will ever catch me talking to a hipster...lol


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

AndyN said:


> Ummm... kinda contradicting yourself, eh?


Right?


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## finch6013 (Jul 9, 2011)

I think shops need to evolve to be like Universal Cycles. They have a retail store in my town and they always have tons of customers there not to mention online sales. I can check current stock on their web site before I go to the store. Order parts on the website and have them ready to pick up within an hour. They offer many of the perks and discounts of an online seller with the advantages of a retail store.


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## ghglenn (Jan 26, 2012)

Some LBS are worth the patronage. Some are cookie cutter POS's, that are not worth the space they are taking up.

My LBS (3) carry Scott, RockyMountain, SantaCruz, Specialized, Kona, Trek, Surly, Intense, etc. One also carriers Turner, and Salsa. Their bottom bikes start at about $400, and the top bikes are at $8000. They have every boutique item you could dream of wanting. Their prices same as on-line retail, and they blow out old stock fast at deep discounts. The key I think is the fact that they push the sport and move the product. They all do weekly shop rides, and require their employees to be active cyclists. To make this type of business thrive, you have to evolve, and have a passion for the sport. It shows, and draws guys like me into the fold, to spend my hard earned $$$.


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## jl (Feb 23, 2004)

The closest bike shop to me is always the same experience. Do you have any rim tape? No, but we can order some for you. Do you have an cruiser-type handlebars to retrofit on an old mountain bike? No, but we do have this new Madone 6 on sale for $8K. I was looking for some flat pedals, do you have any? No, but we have these new look carbon pedals for $300. Would you be interested in looking at those? Would you happen to have a 27.2 seatpost? Yes, here's a carbon one for $200.00.


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## asphalt_jesus (Aug 13, 2010)

fatcat said:


> didn't buy hardly any 2012 bikes


Your friend doesn't understand what he/she is doing.

#1. Selling new bikes is not profitable. Selling all the stuff that goes with the bikes turns a negative cash flow positive.
#2 She/He's not treating the bikes on the floor like produce. Hanging onto them won't turn them profitable. Customers treat them *exactly* like produce. Time for a 2011 sales promotional extravaganza.
#3 She/He's probably selling bikes in a price category that is getting crushed by domestic economic policy. Cycling is the new golf. Carry top-end stuff or go full-service. Plenty of money to be made by servicing all those bikes people 'saved money' on when they bought them from a Mass Marketer.
#4 Supporting local competitive scene is a largely a money loser. Weekend warriors are where the money is at.

Time to change stuff up.


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## freighttrainuphill (Feb 3, 2012)

My LBS made some signs for the business next door that say "NO BIKE SHOP PARKING". LBS customers were always parking in their lot, so they did that to be neighborly.


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## FujNoob (Dec 20, 2009)

My LBS is great. My last upgrade I paid less for parts through him than I would have on line and he almost always has repairs ready earlier than expected. As a small business I don't expect him to have every size/color of every part but most times I can get something next or 2nd day without any expedited shipping.


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

I get current model year parts for same cost or cheaper than online (after shipping) without even trying at my LBS. They are awesome like that. 

Twice they've ordered me fatbike tires that sold out in the initial shipments, and both times they stalked QBP, successfully ordered me tires, and sold them at 10% under MSRP, where they were selling at full retail online (at like $120 a pop). I've even begged them to charge me full MSRP on stuff at times because I almost feel guilty, lol.

I have zero reason to shop online anymore after finding this shop, and will always give them my business if they can get me the brands I want, which they almost always can.

Now, other LBS's in the area, that's a different story... some are above MSRP significantly, others are heinously expensive on labor, and others are cheap but do shoddy work. If you find a good LBS, support them!


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## simian23 (Aug 13, 2004)

Evolve or die. $2 million is an insane amount to put into a niche retail business if you don't have a vetted business strategy. What's his local competition? Why those brands in particular? What makes him different from other shops?

Most LBSs in my area do rather well, and there are a lot of them. They all cater to the bottom end, which keeps the lights on (families, city bikes, kids bikes, etc.), and have unique brands that represent the top end. The owners I know agonize over stock levels for different brands each year, and keep a close eye on turnover and inventory. Most work their butts off to please their customers, and the best lack any snobbery whatsoever.

And nearly all of them charge 40-100% more for parts than internet retail price, with exceptions being the things that keep people coming back in: small spare parts, helmets, shoes, and protective equipment, wheels, frames, and full bikes are all quite reasonable. They compete where they can.

The other way they compete is by specializing. It is rare to find a shop that tries to be all things to all people. Some are roadie shops (plus family), some are pure MTB / CX (with family), some are city and commuter shops (and families).

What internet retail has done to the LBS is ensure that in order to succeed, an owner now needs more than just passion for bikes. They need a head for business and marketing.


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## huffster (Nov 14, 2011)

I wouldn't want to own a bike shop because then I'd be spending all my time worrying about other people's bike and riding enjoyment instead of my own. And afterall, it is all about me.


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## PdlPwr (Nov 16, 2010)

When I was younger I was very loyal to my LBS but that was sort of pre internet when you almost had to get your stuff from them but I always thought I got a fair deal. Fast forward ten years and things have really changed. The prices are nuts and when I need small stuff they almost never have it. I give it another year at most.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

With all due respect and sympathy - why would anybody pay more money for parts and bikes when they can pay less money elsewhere?

And why pay for repairs that are faster to do yourself?



redmr2_man said:


> I had an LBS want to charge me 700$ for XT brakes. I laughed, hard.
> 
> I don't mind spending a few bucks more than online, especially on little parts or stuff I need right away.


Indeed. I am fine with spending a bit more - and I do, when I shop for some clothing and stuff in a few good local shops.

But prices for any aftermarket parts is beyond anything even remotely reasonable. Literally several times more expensive than I can get shipped to me at home in a day or two. And you have to wait for days or weeks.

Obviously, enthusiasts are not their target market.


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## sjhiker (Apr 25, 2008)

In my LBS, they've got one thing that I really like. They've got a bar with bar stools which is infront of the techs. While there's no drinks/food, you've got the opportunity to sit and watch your tech install a given part or tuneup your bike. I actually like this because I can ask questions about what they're doing and get some tips such as tuning shifters, suspension and basic bike maintenance. The shop is clean and the employees are all friendly. Which for someone that isn't really looking to get a new bike anytime soon, I can keep coming back for the smaller upgrades or yearly tuneups.










There's 4-5 other LBS in my area and for the most part all of the techs are stuffed in a back room somewhere... like some set of rejects.


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## Gonzoso (Mar 25, 2012)

I make an effort to visit my LBS for many of my purchases. I've chewed the fat with the guy and he showed me some of his bikes. I never test rode them or anything more than looked at them, but he kind of made up my mind about what bike I wanted to buy.

So when I bought my Cobia on craigslist I kinda felt bad so I went in there and bought like 120$ in accessories and stuff.


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## RaveOn (Dec 21, 2003)

fatcat said:


> Its a small shop in Los Angeles that carries GT, Haro and Diamondback. He invested $2 million in the shop and has 2 FT workers. Repairs keep the place going.


GT, Haro and Diamondback....oh boy 

Its possible this LBS is dying from poor management or bad decisions. If you sell generic bikes, you attract generic spenders. Guys that are buying better brand bikes are spending their money at the other stores. The guys that are buying online always will so forget that crowd.

Besides, online stores know they can't fool with high markup prices so they deal in volume to make up profits. Since they sell more, they have better buying power....this is simple math. Think small, stay small. Generally, a LBS want to make a killing on a single item. As a consumer, that insults me. They have every right to do it just as I have every right not to buy from them.

People often forget that "online" stores like JensonUSA, PerformanceBike, CBO, CRC, ect.. are a LBS!! Just not in your area.

Want to read a nice success story of someone that "gets it," read this:
Story about CRC


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

I'd hate to own an LBS now too if I had friends that shopped online to save 10% instead of coming to my shop. If I owned it, and that's what was happening, I'd really think twice about my level of customer service if even my friends were shopping elsewhere.


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## Domdog31 (Apr 8, 2012)

My local LBS is excellent for those who aren't as well informed as most of us here. Im am into photography and I buy all my stuff from B&H or Amazon. No sales tax and usually less than my local brick and mortal. With Bikes its similar but that doesnt mean the LBS can't be profitable. They get about 10-15 walk ins daily in the late spring summer - sure they may be $10-$20 fixes but foot traffic is not a problem.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

fatcat said:


> A friend of mine owns a bike shop and has late payments due (his mechanic told me)
> and didn't buy hardly any 2012 bikes because of this and also the 2011 are still on the floor.
> Its a small shop in Los Angeles that carries GT, Haro and Diamondback. He invested $2 million in the shop and has 2 FT workers. Repairs keep the place going.
> 
> ...


I'm having a really hard time getting past the "he invested 2 million dollars" part.

Debt service on that is 10k+ a month... that's not a sustainable number that can be supported by a small LBS operation.


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## joshman108 (Jul 6, 2009)

I dont suppose my local trek store counts as an lbs does it?


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## wintersolstice (Feb 26, 2012)

jl said:


> The closest bike shop to me is always the same experience. Do you have any rim tape? No, but we can order some for you. Do you have an cruiser-type handlebars to retrofit on an old mountain bike? No, but we do have this new Madone 6 on sale for $8K. I was looking for some flat pedals, do you have any? No, but we have these new look carbon pedals for $300. Would you be interested in looking at those? Would you happen to have a 27.2 seatpost? Yes, here's a carbon one for $200.00.


I had one like that for years, drove me nuts.
Now the LBS near me is much wider-ranged, though they are still a bit on the higher end.
They'll gladly point you to a big box for cheapy parts, but they carry all the consumables now at a good price.


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## R+P+K (Oct 28, 2009)

STT GUY said:


> I'm having a really hard time getting past the "he invested 2 million dollars" part.
> 
> Debt service on that is 10k+ a month... that's not a sustainable number that can be supported by a small LBS operation.


It's possible the owner had $2mill in cash to invest (lottery, inheritance, property sale etc.)

Hell, if I won millions on lotto, I'd chuck my job and run a bike shop!


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## eurospek (Sep 15, 2007)

matt00mck said:


> Me: "I'm looking for a wider MTB handlebar, what do you have?"
> LBS: "Oh look at these! (hands me a 680mm aluminum bar) Widest we have in stock: $80.00"
> Me: "(AYFKM?) Gotta run thanks."


Yup.

Sounds like to the places I've been.

Online retailers ftw.


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## dirtdan (Jun 27, 2011)

I have to say that I probably think about 90% of the LBS's should go broke anyway, if not more. I've probably been to at least 40 different stores since the 90's and it isn't until this year that I found the shop that I go to now. They are really tremendous on every level. Sure, they don't stock everything I want, how can they? But when it comes to service, I've just never met a team like this. I only first went in there because I was riding by one day on my way to the trails and it started pouring with lightning and thunder. We popped in out of convenience and they were extremely friendly, they understood that we weren't there to buy anything and to just get dry. We chatted, we looked around at their bikes. There were Pivots, Surly's, Ibis's, Yeti's, Rocky Mountains, Cannondales, Konas, Felts and who knows what else. We bought nothing on that visit, but started picking up a few things from there from time to time and then eventually they became our go to for just about everything. When I needed some valve stems with removable cores, they just gave them to me. When my gf picked up a Bern helmet, they had a wooly insert as an extra that they just threw in when we told them we ride in the winter snow. My gf recently picked up a Pivot Mach 5.7 and I'll be picking up a high end bike from them in the near future once Ibis releases their 29r since that is one I really want to check out before making the plunge. They never pressure any sale, and they don't even seem like they care if you buy anything. They simply present good products, and let you work way through. I have a big crush on the Surly Pugsly (fatbike) and they had a demo one in their shop and they chucked some pedals on for me one day before we ever bought the Pivot and they let me take it for a spin even though they knew I had no real interest in buying it at any point in the near future. They just wanted to give me the pleasure of giving it a spin.
They are the exact model of how a business should be run in my mind and I think they are quite successful as a result. Barring some incredible deals that are occasionally found on the Internet, we try to get all of our gear from them...
If you're in Massachusetts, the shop is JRA in Medford and well worth a visit. Every single person that works there is just a complete team player all the way and completely enthused about their work and cycling. They make me want to quit my line of work and get a job there.


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## AcuNinja (Jun 8, 2008)

I try to give my LBS as much business as possible, but the shops closest to me are so darn specialized (no pun intended) that I can hardly ever find what I want, and end up online. One shop, closest to my office, is all about recumbents, vintage bikes, and hipster singlespeeds. They carry crap for mountain bikes. I've bought some stuff for my commuter rig from them, but even then, they seem bored to deal with me since I don't ride a recumbent. I demo'ed one from them once, and they were happier than a puppy with two peters, until after the ride, when they tried to close me, said I'd have to think about it. 

There's another totally downhill/freeride shop around, with an amazing selection of bikes, but not much in the way of parts, accessories, or apparel. The vibe is, "If you're not buying full-DH Intense for $6k, we're bored." 

One more shop focuses on either high end road stuff, and always tries to upsell me, or is selling the entry level stuff & kids bikes. Last year, I tried to negotiate on a 2009 bike they had sitting around for two years. They wouldn't budge on price, and the price wasn't particularly good, so I ended up going elsewhere. I went back a few months later, that bike was gone. 

None of those three shops seem to be in any danger or hurting for business. Two of the three have been around for 20+ years, and the newer, roadie oriented shop always has a full parking lot. 

My middle ground is that I've found a small local e-tailer (2 hours away) who has a great selection and killer prices. It's the internet equivalent of a mom & pop LBS. 

I get all my maintenance stuff--brake bleeds, wheel building, etc, that I can't or don't want to do performed by a buddy of mine who runs his own bike repair shop out of his garage. That's double LBS cred points in my book. He's as mom & pop as it can be. And yes, it's his primary business. In so many areas of the country, it really just depends on what area you're in, and how you run your business. Some businesses are rocking. Some aren't. It's always been like that, but I think it's just a little harder to get into the zone now versus 10 years ago.


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## mtskibum16 (Apr 14, 2009)

ghglenn said:


> My LBS (3) carry Scott, RockyMountain, SantaCruz, Specialized, Kona, Trek, Surly, Intense, etc. One also carriers Turner, and Salsa. Their bottom bikes start at about $400, and the top bikes are at $8000. They have every boutique item you could dream of wanting. Their prices same as on-line retail, and they blow out old stock fast at deep discounts. The key I think is the fact that they push the sport and move the product. They all do weekly shop rides, and require their employees to be active cyclists. To make this type of business thrive, you have to evolve, and have a passion for the sport. It shows, and draws guys like me into the fold, to spend my hard earned $$$.


This is what I want, and where I would spend my money if it existed here.



jl said:


> The closest bike shop to me is always the same experience. Do you have any rim tape? No, but we can order some for you. Do you have an cruiser-type handlebars to retrofit on an old mountain bike? No, but we do have this new Madone 6 on sale for $8K. I was looking for some flat pedals, do you have any? No, but we have these new look carbon pedals for $300. Would you be interested in looking at those? Would you happen to have a 27.2 seatpost? Yes, here's a carbon one for $200.00.


This is what I have to deal with here.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I can order parts from an online store in new york, and have them at my house in california faster than my LBS can order up a part. I cant count how many times ive seen shop owners/employees claim that online prices are cheaper than their cost on something. Shops are getting boned by the distribution system (qbp?) 

I like to support a good, friendly lbs.. but Im not going to wait 2 weeks for a part I could get in 2 days, even if they matched the price.


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## R+P+K (Oct 28, 2009)

So why don't bike shops order from online places as well? They could bulk order and save on shipping.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I dont think bike shops benefit much from bulk orders. A small shop is going to have trouble clearing out a ton of the same item.

But still, if something is so much cheaper online, and a customer wants it, they could make some happy customers giving near online prices. Mark it up 5-10 bucks, click "order", make a quick sale and a happy customer. Maybe they're contractually obligated not to do that, but thats just screwing them.. and us as consumers.

I like supporting local business, and keeping money in my town. I like supporting the community and taking pride in where i live, even at a little extra cost.. but damn, some of these LBS's make it a ridiculous endevour. Its also a uniquely rude industry, ive gotten AMAZINGLY bad service by bike shops, the kind of stuff that gets people fired in 95% of retail is commonplace in too many shops.

There was a tandem shop in my old town. Ran by a great guy and his wife. His deal was that he sold tandem bikes, and 70% of the shop was women specific clothing and gear. Im neither a woman, or a tandem rider.. but the owner was awesome. I talked to him about his business model, he was the only tandem shop in a few hundred mile radius, and he sold bikes nationwide. It was also the only bike shop ive ever seen that had so much female specific stuff, and he got tons of support from local female riders because of it. He was making money and expanding in 08 when everyone else in town was closing their doors. Id pop in and buy tubes, gloves, stuff like that. He gave me a small discount on everything, but it showed appreciation. He might have lost a buck or so per sale to me, but he sold me 10 times more stuff than any other local shop. 

The other shops all sold the same bikes, nothing special at all, stocked hardly any inventory, and all wondered why they were struggling so bad. I think we have a wide-scale broken industry thats reluctant to even help themselves.


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## tgraham1 (Jun 30, 2011)

I support my LBS every chance I get. When I upgraded to BB7s I bought my front rotor and levers online, but got the 185mm bracket at the LBS because it was cheaper. I buy all of my tubes at my LBS. I've trashed 2 cables and a housing this year already and it was cheaper for me to pay the LBS for parts/labor than for me to order the stuff online to do it. It also helps that since they sponsor the club I'm in I get a decent discount on everything but labor.


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## car bone (Apr 15, 2011)

fatcat said:


> A friend of mine owns a bike shop and has late payments due (his mechanic told me)
> and didn't buy hardly any 2012 bikes because of this and also the 2011 are still on the floor.
> Its a small shop in Los Angeles that carries GT, Haro and Diamondback. He invested $2 million in the shop and has 2 FT workers. Repairs keep the place going.
> 
> ...


I support mine for general spares and odd stuff I don't want to order on the internet. But when its time for lets say part for a total of more than 2-300 then I get from the net.

I mostly buy stuff I have to see and hold to deciede what I want, but I'm not a cheapass, I don't go home and order it from the internet straight after. If I go to a store I buy what I came there for. Most bike stores here are combined sporting good stores, and bike stores, in the winter they sell skis, some even sell rifles and such. I usually shop when stuff goes out of season since its usually 50% off then and I don't need the newest stuff.

Got a good deal on my bike! I've seen lynskey Ti frames for half price!


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## darkslide18 (Dec 8, 2007)

finch6013 said:


> I think shops need to evolve to be like Universal Cycles. They have a retail store in my town and they always have tons of customers there not to mention online sales. I can check current stock on their web site before I go to the store. Order parts on the website and have them ready to pick up within an hour. They offer many of the perks and discounts of an online seller with the advantages of a retail store.


This^^^^^^

Universal rocks. I can order a part, drive on over and pick it up. That and they have a crap ton of stuff. Even stuff that I have to wait for never takes more than two days.


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## dgaddis1 (Jul 1, 2007)

fatcat said:


> A friend of mine owns a bike shop and has late payments due (his mechanic told me)
> and didn't buy hardly any 2012 bikes because of this and also the 2011 are still on the floor.
> Its a small shop in Los Angeles that carries GT, Haro and Diamondback. He invested $2 million in the shop and has 2 FT workers. Repairs keep the place going.
> 
> ...


First - that guy is an idiot for investing $2 million in a bike shop that carries GT, Haro, and Diamondback. Most of these are no longer considered serious brands by most riders.

Second - you're part of the problem dude. If you want your local shop to still be around in a few years STOP BUYING ONLINE. Everytime you buy something online, that's money that didn't stay in your community keeping your friends and neighbors in business.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

R+P+K said:


> It's possible the owner had $2mill in cash to invest (lottery, inheritance, property sale etc.)
> 
> Hell, if I won millions on lotto, I'd chuck my job and run a bike shop!


Or........ put it to work in a passive investment at 8% and be loving $160k a year passive income and then you could work part-time at a bike shop for fun and ride bikes pretty much every day.

Business that make more poor choices than they can pay for fail, that's life and the sad truth.


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## A1an (Jun 3, 2007)

The Internet took a huge bite out of small local retail for sure. Seems the shops that are still thriving are willing to be more reasonable with prices to be competitive...particularly if they are doing the labor on said bike anyways.


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## jfoodstamp (Apr 9, 2012)

With all retail the internet has created a much tougher marketplace. But with excellent customer service and creative Ideas like the Bike repair bar I saw in this post earlier a local bike shop will have a better than average chanc to survive


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## Brycentron (Apr 7, 2012)

supporting a LBS is very hard when 4/5 of them are a bunch of unfriendly dbagz. I live in ME and there arnt a lot of people in general so supporting local is something I really try to do. The LBS's here make it soooo hard


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## sooner518 (Aug 1, 2007)

AcuNinja said:


> I *get all my maintenance stuff--brake bleeds, wheel building, etc, that I can't or don't want to do performed by a buddy of mine who runs his own bike repair shop out of his garage*. That's double LBS cred points in my book. He's as mom & pop as it can be. And yes, it's his primary business. In so many areas of the country, it really just depends on what area you're in, and how you run your business. Some businesses are rocking. Some aren't. It's always been like that, but I think it's just a little harder to get into the zone now versus 10 years ago.


That sounds like one of my old friends in Denver (I moved from there 3 years ago but he was just starting out then). You live in Denver? Might be the same guy..... He doesnt sell any parts or bikes or accessories. Only does servicing for clients, generally really high end bikes. He's got a nice niche and has virtually no overhead. Really nice business model for him.

My bike was in great shape when I used to live there becuase he'd work on my bike for free and then wouldnt take my money.

I support my LBS when they can do something that I cant do myself. As I get more experienced with repairs, I find myself going less and less. Generally it costs more to get something fixed at the LBS one time than it does to just buy the tool needed to do that repair on my own. There arent many things that I cant do on my own anymore, so I dont see my LBS that often. As for buying accessories and parts at an LBS, I really only do it if I need something RIGHT NOW. I needed new cleats a few months back and didnt have time to wait for it to be delivered. Went to an LBS near the trail and the only SPD cleats they had were $35. For something I can get on Jenson for under $20, that is highway robbery. Ive had way too many of those experiences....


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

R+P+K said:


> So why don't bike shops order from online places as well? They could bulk order and save on shipping.


Well, almost every LBS has a QBP account, same as much of the online places. When you see online stores with prices wayyyyy lower than LBS's, it's usually for year old or two year old closeout items.

Any current year stuff, like I said, that my shop gets thru QBP- they place the order and it comes next day or two days. And they have a bunch of people ordering stuff regularly so they place orders very frequently.

Now, to compare to another local LBS, who also has QBP- this shop will charge me like 25-30% over retail, because it's a "special order." GTFO.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

wintersolstice said:


> I sympathize! I go past mine on the way home from work... every day... and look in the window


The shop I frequent is an 18 minute drive from my house. Last week, I just didn't want to be in the house while my wife was watching Dancing With the Stars, so I went to the bike shop and ordered up the parts to build the wheels for my son's next bike. That made an hour of my life a little less painful.


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

LBS owners have to realize they have online competition and they need to be able to distinguish what customers are really needing from them. In my case, I need a part, no service, so don't mark the price uo 40%, especially knowing I can get it elsewhere. 

Like someone else said, It's not a charity.


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## ehigh (Apr 19, 2011)

This is all over. My friend owns a publishing company and a small book shop and they're going downhill. The couple recently lost their home and the rest of their lives is a little open ended all of the sudden.


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## redmr2_man (Jun 10, 2008)

STT GUY said:


> Or........ put it to work in a passive investment at 8% and be loving $160k a year passive income and then you could work part-time at a bike shop for fun and ride bikes pretty much every day.
> 
> Business that make more poor choices than they can pay for fail, that's life and the sad truth.


where are you investing at 8%?


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

redmr2_man said:


> where are you investing at 8%?


California public employee pension system assumes 7.5% rate of the return. If that is a lie I will have to pay more taxes. :eekster:


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

dgaddis1 said:


> Everytime you buy something online, that's money that didn't stay in your community keeping your friends and neighbors in business.


Unless they sell something online to somewhere across the world. Not everything should stay in the community.

My local community is owned by Google and Apple and Facebook and their friends. They make metric tons of $$$ overseas.

Only fare I send some of it back to compensate folks there for a ripoff they got.


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## Eric Z (Sep 28, 2008)

redmr2_man said:


> where are you investing at 8%?


+1. 8% year over year is pretty good and actually fairly aggressive. i agree on the point about letting your money do the work for you. income funds come to mind.

anyway, back to the op point: i agree with lbs and other small business owners on how they have to become more creative and have top notch customer service. many are willing to pay a little more if the quality of service is high- it's just too bad many businesses aren't well rounded in budgeting and customer service.


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## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

*worst post this week.*

By worst, I mean dumbest.

We are being asked to support our LBS, but the OP doesn't fully support his LBS. He buys parts online. So, we are all supposed to buy new bikes this week? What happens next week? Should I stop doing my own repair work?

If a repair is beyond my ability to fix I am not going to a non-local bike shop.

Be confident your LBS is not the only business struggling right now. If the guy was smart enough to leverage a $2 million purchase, he should be able to figure out how to survive.


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## ehigh (Apr 19, 2011)

^^
yeah, I'm honestly tired of the LBS in my immediate vicinity. I'm not very thrilled with the management.


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## snowjnky (Oct 7, 2005)

Axe said:


> California public employee pension system assumes 7.5% rate of the return. If that is a lie I will have to pay more taxes. :eekster:


Over the past 20 years, including the two recent recession years, CalPERS has earned an average annual 7.9 percent rate of return. just saying.


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## coachjon (Jun 13, 2007)

finch6013 said:


> I think shops need to evolve to be like Universal Cycles. They have a retail store in my town and they always have tons of customers there not to mention online sales. I can check current stock on their web site before I go to the store. Order parts on the website and have them ready to pick up within an hour. They offer many of the perks and discounts of an online seller with the advantages of a retail store.


I LOVE UC and wish they had a retail location in my area!


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## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

I sympathize the the LBS's 100% and I'll go spent money there if necessary but its hard to justify buying any sort of part at an LBS when I can get exactly what I want for half the price online and wait a few days. 

I bought new rotors for my bike last week and it cost me $45 from an online store. If I had bought from the LBS those 2 rotors would have cost me almost twice what I paid.

The economy is tough, consumers are going to buy their gear where ever the deal are.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

snowjnky said:


> Over the past 20 years, including the two recent recession years, CalPERS has earned an average annual 7.9 percent rate of return. just saying.


Interesting effect is that a lot of the last 20 - 25 years of unprecedented returns are related with a whole lot of retirement money - from all over the world - being pumped into stock market.

Would be interesting to see how it all unfolds once baby boomers withdraw all that.

I still think that should have lowered it to 7.25 as it was recommended.

Well, at least we are not Greece.


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## scorchedearth (Aug 30, 2011)

In my area, there are good and bad LBS'. Being in the DC area gives me quite a few options and I have seen good and bad. Those that have treated me well are my go-to places. 

My preferred dealer let me test ride a bike for as long as I felt it was necessary. Another dealer gave me 5 minutes on the same bike and then applied the high pressure tactics to get me to buy then and there. 

Guess where I'm going....


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## aikane (Mar 21, 2012)

Most small business have it hard in the present economy. You need to adapt and cater to the current needs of your customers. As a result the 2 lbs in my town are mostly stocked with "big-box" stlye bikes. Low priced, big fat sofa stlye saddles, adjustable quill stems....but you can't blame them. Both shops are within a mile of the university campus, so it's easy to figure out where the majority of their sales are coming from. I still get stuff like tubes and cables from them, but will probably purchase higher ticket items online.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

finch6013 said:


> ...I think shops need to evolve to be like Universal Cycles...


When I lived in Austin TX I had a number of good shops to hit, and one that was "my" LBS for MTB and another for road.

Since I moved somewhere that simply doesn't have the same quality of stores, nor the economy to support said quality stores, UC has become "my" LBS in most ways. I do shop the locals first when I need something, and if they're within reason of what the UC price is then I get it locally. However, 90% or more of the time they simply don't have what I need, so from UC it comes.

UC doesn't have the lowest prices on the web, and I don't really want them to. I want them to stay a good solid business that continues their 100% reliability (as far as I am concerned) with very reasonable prices.

Things may change for me though, as a new-ish friend of my is actually opening a store. I have hopes for him, but fear for his personal life and time off, and likelihood of success. He's young and has the energy for it though so "go for it buddy" is what I say.


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## 4Crawler (Oct 30, 2011)

I hit up one of my local shops to get a new frame for a cross bike build a few months back. I think I had used that shop many years ago, and they were a dealer for the frame I was looking for. They gave me one price quote for the frame via e-mail (about 25% higher than on-line) then when I went in to order in person, the price was another $20 higher than quoted, but I went ahead and ordered through them anyway. 

Also had a list of components I was interested in getting for the bike, but they seemed uninterested in helping me out with any of those. Then when the estimated delivery date of the frame arrival came and went w/o any word from the LBS, I went in to check on the status. The sales guy just asked their shop person if anything had come in that week, no was the answer. Then basically got the "don't call us, we'll call you" message. I was able to find out from the frame mfg. what to expect as far as a delivery time (about 6 weeks longer than the 6 weeks the LBS estimated).

So, I think once I get the frame and have the LBS give it the "once over" and stick a head set on it, I'll do the rest myself. Just doesn't sound like they are into working with customers on custom builds.

Back when I was a kid, the LBS in town was a small hardware store that also sold a fair number of bikes, mainly Schwinn. They had a shop in back and they were great, I would hang out there all the time. One time we went through the various catalogs and pieced together the parts needed to put a disc brake on a road bike back in the early '70s. I actually ordered up all the parts and I think I had it somewhat working on my Schwinn Sports Tourer bike, I still have the rear hub and wheel I built for that disc. It use to screw onto the hub just like a freewheel, but on the opposite side. Also there was a bike shop in the nearby town and the owner was a member of our college bike club. If I had more than an hour between classes, I would ride the 8 miles to his shop and hang out until it was time to head back to class. He did not get much business mid-day on week days, so he welcomed the company. If I had a broken spoke or whatever, he would just give me the parts and would not take any money for them. I think one time I finally got him to sell me a free wheel or two.


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

I deal with a few of my local shops, but the LBS that treated me the best was the one that I bought my first bike from in 2007. Since then, they've supplied a few frames, a few mid-high end wheel builds, countless jugs of sealant, tires, odds and ends, repairs, adjustments, etc. They didn't completely earn my loyalty with the price on the first bike. They earned it by making sure that I got taken care of subsequently, by giving me better than fair pricing on a lot of big ticket items, and by consistently getting the silly little odds and ends that I wanted.

It's fantastic, in the last two weeks, I've called them to get me some gear clamps, a seat post, and a half dozen other things. I generally don't have to quibble about price, because I know that they're going to take good care of me. They don't have to give it away, but price gouging is a quick way to lose my business. It's far too common in the bike business. They also keep me updated if there are any delays on my orders. All in all, they rock.

If you don't have a local shop like that, I feel bad for you. The 3 biggest LBS around here are arrogant, apathetic and generally ignorant. The biggest is known for consistently selling people improperly sized bikes, and charging significantly more than retail on almost every product in the store. I'm glad that I've got options.


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## darth_vader (Mar 22, 2010)

creativity is key must sell cheaper and higher quantitys too make up for discounts my LBS DISCOUNTS 25% on highend bikes


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## Eric Z (Sep 28, 2008)

i like the creativity like the bar stools and counter near the work area. a bike shop (the hub) right outside pisgah took it to the next level and had beers flowing.


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

There's a pretty awesome bike shop right across the road from the trailhead in Ocala Florida. They don't have a bar, but they do have just about any beer, soda or energy drink you can imagine. 
Sam Adams and Pizza Combos are the bomb after a 100 degree ride.


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## HoustonRider (Apr 7, 2012)

interesting topic.

I bought a new Stumpy FSR Comp 29 today, and tried to get em to cut me a "better" price on just some pedals (the pedals I wanted at this shop were priced 100% higher than what I can buy em online for, seriously they were double the price, no tax, free shipping).

the guy came back (like a shady car dealer) and said, "yeah I can't help on the bike, but I can knock 10% off the pedals"..... so I got $7.50 discount on my total $3300 bill..... sweet !!! (sarcasm).

I'm all for supporting the locals, but sometimes they make it easy to shop elsewhere.


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## charlesinoc (May 17, 2009)

My local bike shop is in San Diego and is pretty kick a$$. The shop receives high customer ratings on yelp. The shop serves a wide range of customer and welcomes everyone who walks in. They sell the very attractive Elektra bicycle brands for your casual / commuter bicycles. They also sell road bikes, and on the mountain side have Niners bikes, Ibis, Ellsworth, Intense, Surly. Giant. The shops mechanic is a perfectionist, I heard. Actually, this shop has had to fix previous repairs by shops closer to my home in South OC numerous times. They just seem to do it right,, the first time consistently. 

They often advertise trail work days on the store website with shop employees participating and often have demo days at the local trail alternating brands they carry supported by the manufacturer. 

It's a brick and mortar bicycle shop, and they also offer "price match". 

A shop that understands a good business model will draw customers on its own and doesn't require post such as yours. Adapt or else. 

It's the economy, stupid.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

4Crawler said:


> They gave me one price quote for the frame via e-mail (about 25% higher than on-line) then when I went in to order in person, the price was another $20 higher than quoted, but I went ahead and ordered through them anyway.


May I ask why?



4Crawler said:


> stick a head set on it.


Thin piece of wood, hammer and some grease. One minute job.


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## rippling over canyons (Jun 11, 2004)

charlesinoc said:


> My local bike shop is in San Diego and is pretty kick a$$. The shop receives high customer ratings on yelp. The shop serves a wide range of customer and welcomes everyone who walks in. They sell the very attractive Elektra bicycle brands for your casual / commuter bicycles. They also sell road bikes, and on the mountain side have Niners bikes, Ibis, Ellsworth, Intense, Surly. Giant. The shops mechanic is a perfectionist, I heard.
> 
> They often advertise trail work days on the store website with shop employees participating and often have demo days at the local trail alternating brands they carry supported by the manufacturer.
> 
> ...


Cal Coast? If so, I agree; they are a quality shop with good customer service and renown mechanics. When I was shopping for my last bike, they let me demo an IBIS all day for free.


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## jollybeggar (Feb 2, 2004)

For the LBS it's all about the service not the product. My LBS makes there money providing service that fits our community, mainly repairs and quality low end bikes. I don't buy many high dollar parts, but go to them for things like cables, tubes, chains. 

Their key to success, good service and being the only shop in town.


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

HoustonRider said:


> interesting topic.
> 
> I bought a new Stumpy FSR Comp 29 today, and tried to get em to cut me a "better" price on just some pedals (the pedals I wanted at this shop were priced 100% higher than what I can buy em online for, seriously they were double the price, no tax, free shipping).
> 
> ...


That's absurd. EVERYTHING is negotiable. If someone doesn't want to discuss dollars on a $3000 purchase, then they didn't really want your business.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

OneBadWagon said:


> That's absurd. EVERYTHING is negotiable. If someone doesn't want to discuss dollars on a $3000 purchase, then they didn't really want your business.


The individual he was talking to may not have the latitude, but mark-up on whole bikes - last I had any real info - was Not Trivial. Varied quite a bit by brand, but still pretty big.

There are also dealer agreements in place though, sometimes the LBS is contractually bound to sell above a certain point, even though their cost is significantly lower. If they sell below this they risk losing their contract and source of bikes. I'm just pointing out it may not be all in the LBS "hands."

Comparing prices between LBS is certainly reasonable, but comparing LBS vs remote-LBS-with-wholly-different-local-market and vs online-shop is not completely fair, the local economy must play in to what a given LBS has to do to stay healthy (e.g. I'd never compare LBS stuff between Austin TX and Scranton PA - it's just not fair).

Still, I'd basically agree with what you say - for an on-the-floor stock-bike.


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

bear said:


> The individual he was talking to may not have the latitude, but mark-up on whole bikes - last I had any real info - was Not Trivial. Varied quite a bit by brand, but still pretty big.
> 
> There are also dealer agreements in place though, sometimes the LBS is contractually bound to sell above a certain point, even though their cost is significantly lower. If they sell below this they risk losing their contract and source of bikes. I'm just pointing out it may not be all in the LBS "hands."
> 
> ...


What I noticed when shopping recently is that the "big" bike brands I looked at (Trek, Specialized), from varying LBS's I was quoted 10-11% off MSRP of full suspension rigs costing $2,600-4,400 without me even trying that hard, they offered it up. But when I was looking at smaller boutique brands, those I was quoted MSRP, and from the same LBS's that discounted the bigger brands. So I dunno how that works, if there is just different pricing structures for the smaller brands or dealer agreements or simply because they were hard to get.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

XJaredX said:


> ...So I dunno how that works, if there is just different pricing structures for the smaller brands or dealer agreements or simply because they were hard to get...


Last I heard, the big box brands pretty much required the shops to move a given amount of product in a given amount of time (as in, you have to buy this amount, whether you sell it is none of our concern).

I don't remember that the smaller boutique brands had that same action going on.

May not be a factor, but could be.


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## sooner518 (Aug 1, 2007)

bear said:


> When I lived in Austin TX I had a number of good shops to hit, and one that was "my" LBS for MTB and another for road.
> 
> .


out of curiosity, what was your go-to LBS in Austin?


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

one incredible donkey said:


> What a bunch of nonsense. If they can't compete, they're going to lose. It's a business, not a charity.


I support local business to keep money in my community, to keep families in my community. We all prosper when we support each other.

There's more to life than 10% of suggested retail price.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

HoustonRider said:


> interesting topic.
> 
> I bought a new Stumpy FSR Comp 29 today, and tried to get em to cut me a "better" price on just some pedals (the pedals I wanted at this shop were priced 100% higher than what I can buy em online for, seriously they were double the price, no tax, free shipping).
> 
> ...


In a large shop operation there are three profit/revenue centers. Sales of bikes, sales of service and then parts and accessories. Sometimes there are only two. Anyway, the salesman from bikes can't just waltz into the service area and give away the gross on service or part just like the service guys cant give away the gross on bikes. Peoples pay plans are tied into the either gross sales or profit.

FWIW, a small mom and pop shop will work differently.

Anyway, personally I would have held pretty firmly that my new $3200 bike (at MSRP) include pedals of my choosing. The sales dept can internally charge those pedals to the deal and the parts and accessory guys/gals still make a sale. Only an idiot is going to let you walk over a set of pedals. Of course this is my opinion and I don't own a bike shop, but I have spent a bunch between two of them in five years.

When I helped my friend who owned a motorcycle shop in sales of very highend products (Ducati and MV Agusta motorcycles) I did not discount current product because that lowers the value of said product, but I would add value to the sale by including a helmet (Arai or Shoei) or similar item when needed or when I thought it was warranted.

Good sales people always try to add value, they dont lower the price. Unfortunately, good sales people are rare.


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

Oh for the love of god, At one time the Sears Roboc company was so large they even sold everything, homes and even tractors via mail order. can you Imagine the difficulty small business must have faced then? Trying to stock for a delivery that probably took a couple of months to receive and even then saw their orders go goodbye via the mail order? 
Things have changed only slightly as now pricing and shipping are within a couple of days over weeks or months.
I I have little sympathy for the LBS, it is crazy easy to market yourself online, which is a must, you also can no longer charge bloated prices for parts when again you can go online and get the same part for half the price. 
They need to offer sales and incentive to get people in the door.
rather than marking up every bike 40 percent and losing 50 sales to walmart to every one they sell, actually lower the price and try to depend on tuneups and parts sales.
I had zero problem competing with walcrap when I sold paintball gear and go karts, I would be within a few dollars of walcrap despite paying way more for my products and also purchasing a better product than walcrap would sell.

Edit: The attitude of many bike shops is their own death, I stopped in for directions at an LBS with a friend who had just gotten his first Diamondback as a gift from his wife, it seemed to beneath them to tell where beginner trails were, and they made a snide comment to my friend "let us know where you are so we can pick up the broken frame" yea, not going back to that place ever.
That has been the majority of shops I have walked into, personally I look forward to the day the Elitest attitude leaves the cycling community, and good riddance to LBS who are not beginner friendly and carry forth the Snobby attitude.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

sooner518 said:


> out of curiosity, what was your go-to LBS in Austin?


My go-to MTB LBS was Hammerhead Bikes (first with Charles at the helm and afterwards when Cody took it over), it's where I got my Titus Quasi-Moto from in '03. I have not interacted with Hammerhead since it changed ownership again (post-Cody).

For road it was Music City Cycles with David Hartley. It's where my road bike came from and calls home.

I've gotten great minor support from my new local shops ( Main Bike in Kingston PA mostly, as it closest, but Cedar Bike in Scranton and Sicker's in Exeter ) but they just don't work in an economy like existed in Austin and thus just aren't quite at the same level as I miss - nor do I expect them to be at the same level.

Sicker's has an opportunity with me as they are the local dealer for the next bike that I want (a Yeti) - but it's not something on the floor so I can't expect a whole lot - has to basically be custom ordered.

Hopefully they'll help out a bit on the little stuff that'll be needed to finish the build beyond what comes in the box ( pedals, chain guide, yadda yadda ).

We'll see.


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## Careby (Nov 27, 2011)

I'd like to support my LBS, and other local businesses, but they make it very difficult. My LBS is not that local, about 20 miles, and every time I go there for something I want quickly, they don't have it. I needed an extra-long derailleur cable for my Fargo. "Sorry, we don't carry those, but we can order it for you." Yeah, thanks, I can order it myself and not have to drive 20 miles to pick it up.

My favorite line is, "You're the third person to ask for those this week. We don't stock them - they just don't sell around here." Well, duh, if you don't have them when people ask for them, then, no, they won't sell. I've heard that same story a dozen times about all different kinds of products. It's getting so what Wal-Mart decides to stock is what small town America gets to choose from locally. I guess my real LBS is UPS/Fedex. It's the only way to get what I want.


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## sooner518 (Aug 1, 2007)

bear said:


> My go-to MTB LBS was Hammerhead Bikes (first with Charles at the helm and afterwards when Cody took it over), it's where I got my Titus Quasi-Moto from in '03. I have not interacted with Hammerhead since it changed ownership again (post-Cody).
> 
> For road it was Music City Cycles with David Hartley. It's where my road bike came from and calls home.
> 
> ...


i dont think Hammerhead exists in Austin anymore. Ive driven past where Googlemaps says it is and I can never find it.... It used to be on Burnet, just north of 183, right?


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

sooner518 said:


> i dont think Hammerhead exists in Austin anymore. Ive driven past where Googlemaps says it is and I can never find it.... It used to be on Burnet, just north of 183, right?


Yeah, the in-town store is gone-baby-gone, sold out to a Tulsa OK shop.

If I was in town now I'd probably first be going to Cycle Progression down south of the river.

Alex is "great people" for sure.


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## sooner518 (Aug 1, 2007)

bear said:


> Yeah, the in-town store is gone-baby-gone, sold out to a Tulsa OK shop.
> 
> If I was in town now I'd probably first be going to Cycle Progression down south of the river.
> 
> Alex is "great people" for sure.


thats weird they would sell to a shop 8 hours away. guess they had a good online store?

unfortunately, i live up north near Walnut Creek. down south is a 30 minute trek each way after work. ive been going to BSS, but I dont necessarily love it. but like i said, i dont go to LBS's that often anymore, now that I can do most everything mechanical on my own


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## Gofannon (Apr 19, 2010)

I've bought 2 bikes from my LBS and they never once tried to pull the up-sell on me and the last time I bought a part they discounted it pretty deeply because it took 2 weeks to arrive due to a shipping snafu. I know results like this may be unique but this place has a customer for life.


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## michaelscott (May 23, 2011)

fatcat said:


> Its a small shop in Los Angeles that carries GT, Haro and Diamondback. He invested $2 million in the shop and has 2 FT workers. Repairs keep the place going.


GT???? Haro???? Diamondback??????!?!?!?!?!?!?

2 Million?!?!?!?!?!

Holy tomato. I'm a big fan of GT but there would be no way I would carry all three of those brands together under one roof. Sounds like less of a "LBS's are having a rough time" and more of a "Business owners that make poor decisions have a rough time." sort of thingy...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Just happened here in Richmond, VA. Rowletts is closing down after many many years. Performance and online killed em'. I admit that I regularly shop at Performance b/c its so cheap; that is where I get most of my small items. I also order online from Pricepoint/Jenson regularly. But, I do support the local shops when I can and it is convenient to do so. I agree, its a bummer that shops are going out of business BUT they must adapt and change their business models to be successful - some shops are doing just fine. I worked in a shop for several years and do enjoy being able to go and actually see/try on what I am buying sometimes.


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## Spinning Lizard (Nov 27, 2009)

TiGeo said:


> Just happened here in Richmond, VA. Rowletts is closing down after many many years. Performance and online killed em'. I admit that I regularly shop at Performance b/c its so cheap; that is where I get most of my small items. I also order online from Pricepoint/Jenson regularly. But, I do support the local shops when I can and it is convenient to do so. I agree, its a bummer that shops are going out of business BUT they must adapt and change their business models to be successful - some shops are doing just fine. I worked in a shop for several years and do enjoy being able to go and actually see/try on what I am buying sometimes.


Most online prices on parts are lower then wholesale prices for LBS's. So tell me how do they compete? Mark below their wholesale price? That would seem to be not a very good business model.


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## Ska (Jan 12, 2004)

It is tough for them. I'm good friends with the guys locally and support them all the time. I even help out at one of the shops on some occasions when I have the time and they are swamped.

I know this is going back a bit but I made a video when I assembled my Niner and made mention of the boys AND the shops that helped me out at the end of the video. Although I do all my own research/work (aside from the wheel build which was done by Ken (also credited in the vid) I spent loads of time talking of my plans for the build and ordering my stuff in with their support. The one shop decided to actually start dealing in Niner because of my project! True story.

The last sentence in the vid says it all.


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## Adim_X (Mar 3, 2010)

Like most hobby industries the ones making the money are the middle men. Such as the distributors like QBP and BTI. They get to buy from factories, slap on a huge markup, than treat dealers wholesale prices preferentially based on volume. The LBS really doesn't have much chance these days.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Spinning Lizard said:


> Most online prices on parts are lower then wholesale prices for LBS's. So tell me how do they compete? Mark below their wholesale price? That would seem to be not a very good business model.


Certainly not, but excelling at customer service is one item that some shops have a hard time with and something they have complete control over. The shops that are doing fine have great customer service and their prices, while higher than some online retailers (for the reason you mentioned), are not unreasonable. Also, many shops I have been in lately seem to have tossed in the towel on parts and accessories. Its a bad move b/c you can't sell what you don't have in stock and the mark-up and these items is good; they make a nice profit on those sales. For me, if I have to go to the local shop and have to have them order something for me, I may as well have saved the trip and a few bucks and ordered it myself - this creates a destructive cycle where customers just stop coming in. The shops that are sticking to their guns are not worrying too much about the Performances and Pricepoints of the world. Yeah, my XYZ is $10 more, but you are here, you can see it/touch it, you can have it right now, and you can return it if it breaks. Its a no brainer.


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## charlesinoc (May 17, 2009)

rippling over canyons said:


> Cal Coast? If so, I agree; they are a quality shop with good customer service and renown mechanics. When I was shopping for my last bike, they let me demo an IBIS all day for free.


 I wish for bullet train service to San Diego!


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## ChiefBrody (Apr 1, 2012)

That's business. I try to support my lbs as much as possible, but it's survival of the fittest. Rough times affect spending, and pleasure spending is the first to go (bikes).


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

Spinning Lizard said:


> Most online prices on parts are lower then wholesale prices for LBS's. So tell me how do they compete? Mark below their wholesale price? That would seem to be not a very good business model.


That is a standard sales practice, you eat it in one area in hopes that the customer will buy more items to equate a profit. 
Car Dealerships will often have a "bling" car which it realizes probably nobody will buy, but it brings in people to look, touch and settle for something realistic within their price range.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Blurr said:


> Oh for the love of god, At one time the Sears Roboc company was so large they even sold everything, homes and even tractors via mail order. can you Imagine the difficulty small business must have faced then? Trying to stock for a delivery that probably took a couple of months to receive and even then saw their orders go goodbye via the mail order?
> Things have changed only slightly as now pricing and shipping are within a couple of days over weeks or months.


That is an excellent point. I am 48 and I remember very well the huge Sears catalogue. And yet there were still stand-alone stores doing well.


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## GoingOffRoading (Oct 16, 2011)

I work for an internet retailer (an honorable one) and here's my take on the brick and mortar vs internet retailer

The price difference between an internet retailer and brick and mortar is X

As long as the value and the service of buying from your LBS is equal to or more than X, then they've done their job and will be successful.

If the value and service of the LBS is less than X, then go online

It's when retailers sell things at list price, have **** service and then complain about business being slow that I look at them and go 'really?'


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

GoingOffRoading said:


> I work for an internet retailer (an honorable one) and here's my take on the brick and mortar vs internet retailer
> 
> The price difference between an internet retailer and brick and mortar is X
> 
> ...


Great post and simply put, but very accurate.


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

Ailuropoda said:


> That is an excellent point. I am 48 and I remember very well the huge Sears catalogue. And yet there were still stand-alone stores doing well.


It just occurred to me that most people on here probably are to young to have any Idea what sears catalog actually was.
So here goes folks, everything you could Imagine.

Sears Honor Bilt Modern Homes Catalog 1925

History of the Sears Catalog


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## Roy Miller (Sep 19, 2007)

It's in our best interest to have a relationship with the LBS. I've been dealing with the same shop for many years and have purchased about 10 bikes from them during that time. I spend money there on service and maintenance. Anyway a couple of months ago I was getting my bike ready for a trip to Sedona and found a crack on the swingarm. This was 3 days prior to my departure. Too little time for warranty repairs. LBS solution was to loan me a Demo bike for the two weeks I was away. No one but a friend or your LBS will be able to take care of you like that. Develop that relationship with your LBS. It's good for them and its good for you.


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## R+P+K (Oct 28, 2009)

XJaredX said:


> Well, almost every LBS has a QBP account, same as much of the online places. When you see online stores with prices wayyyyy lower than LBS's, it's usually for year old or two year old closeout items.


Outside the USA though LBS prices rocket up. A pair of FiveTen Impacts cost $240 here but I can buy them online for $120 including shipping. Someone in the chain is making a nice markup.


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## fatcat (Mar 11, 2006)

See that blue litter box? I bought it at my LCS (local cat shop) actually local pet shop, almost 1 year ago. I volunteer at a cat rescue every friggin' sat. morning so I decided to adopt 2 fur babies (actually one's a real a-hole) Regardless....that damn thing cost me $44.99 Yikes!!!! Thats what you get when buying from your LPS, as a LBS.

My point is support your LBS, but don't be a moron and buy everything from them. YOu can't single handedly keep them in business, it takes a village. My original point is go there for stuff you need but
if you see big ticket items like a fork online, get it there. I bought 2 frames from my LBS but built most of it from stuff online, I also bought 3 complete bikes, because what moron buys a complete bike online without trying it out.

In regards to the $2 million the guy spent on the LBS. If you chimed in about that I know you're not from Southern California where a 3 bed room house goes for $600,000 average (and thats in a shitty area) So the cost of the store was included in the price, also he remodeled the place big time. Cheers and welcome to California, now gives us your money. Sales tax where I am is 8.75%
Cheers 

BTW---and that litter box? They have them in abundance at Target for....$19.99 My wife called me an idiot when she saw them. (same ones)


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## michaelscott (May 23, 2011)

fatcat said:


> In regards to the $2 million the guy spent on the LBS. If you chimed in about that I know you're not from Southern California where a 3 bed room house goes for $600,000 average (and thats in a shitty area) So the cost of the store was included in the price, also he remodeled the place big time. Cheers and welcome to California, now gives us your money. Sales tax where I am is 8.75%
> Cheers


I live in a nice part of So Cal (Median household income is $94,000). Been here for 32 years. 3 bedroom homes are lower than $600,000 in nice areas and _much lower_ in shitty areas like Oxnard, the SFV, or 95% of LA.

$2M is still way too much money to spend on a bike shop unless it was having profits (not revenue) of around $333,000 a year (average ROI for most businesses should be 3 years).

Maybe the place was doing that before your buddy took it over, and he just ran it into the ground.


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## dangdang (May 13, 2009)

Luckily the 2 LBS's I've supported over the years also have HUUUGE online price-matching presences. When I lived in SoCal, it was JensonUSA. Now that I live in PDX, its Universal Cycles. Both stellar shops. However, there is a all-mountain LBS near me too- within walking distance... but ugh, their prices and limited selection make it tough for me to get anything from them. I will make the 10 min drive to UC to get what I need and get it price-matched!


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## smmokan (Oct 4, 2005)

Unless you're being sarcastic, I wouldn't call Jenson or Universal LBS's.... in fact, they're probably the "big online warehouses" that the guy is complaining about.

(by the way, I buy from UC all the time)


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## dangdang (May 13, 2009)

smmokan said:


> I wouldn't call Jenson or Universal LBS's....


Heh! I see where you're coming from. But no, really, they actually were/are local... in terms of proximity- both within a 8-10 minute drive.


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## laherna (Jun 14, 2009)

smmokan said:


> Unless you're being sarcastic, I wouldn't call Jenson or Universal LBS's.... in fact, they're probably the "big online warehouses" that the guy is complaining about.
> 
> (by the way, I buy from UC all the time)


Wrong! Jenson has a retail store and you can will call parts from the warehouse. Jenson is my LBS.


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## liv_rong (Apr 11, 2008)

The LBS I have worked at part time for a few years every spring thrives by selling/catering to the average Joe. They are located next to a popular ice cream place and sell a ton of hybrids, kids bikes and entry level everything else. Their prices on parts and accessories are almost always marked up 75-100% above cost and have no problems doing this. Bikes are marked below MSRP. They sell over 500 bikes a year and do over 1000 tune ups a year on top of the other low ticket repairs. The neighborhood is middle class/upper middle class people who just dont know any better. The owner found the companies niche and does well with it, he doesnt even ride. Their "high end" customers who do spend a lot do not know how to do the simplest of tasks on their own bikes just the same as the total newbies walking in to buy a bike. Just dumb luck for him I guess.


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

ambassadorhawg said:


> Welcome to the electronic frontier where if you play your cards right, you never have to leave home for anything. It's getting closer and closer to being able to get anything you need by pushing a button.
> 
> I jokingly say that we will soon begin to evolve into nothing more than brains living in a fish bowl, communicating telepathically. There would no longer be any need for a body.
> 
> ...


The extreme of this is you don't even buy bike parts. You ride your bike via second life of some other virtual reality gig.

So my advice to bike shop owners is, fast food delivery is a better choice for a business if it's not computer software or hardware....maybe the health industry too.

But as far a supporting my LBS, I do, but only to the extent for things I can't do myself. Just like the LBS wants to make money, I want to save it. If I can't do it myself, I go to the LBS. I do the same thing with my truck, my computers, my house repairs and my lasers.

There is nothing more silly that for me to go to the LBS for a part, them telling me that they don't it but they can order it for me and have it next week for twice the price I can get it online in the same amount of time..

If you can't do your own service, then LBS is an awesome place. Don't think of buying stuff then taking it down to them to install it. I saw a sign once that said;

"You don't take raw steak to a restaurant and ask them to cook it, so don't bring parts to us and ask us to install them!"

Although if I had an LBS, I would never turn down a chance to charge premium labor to install stuff because one thing is for sure, if a person doesn't have the skills to install a part and are willing to pay, they are pretty much at your mercy.


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## Rock_Garden (Jan 30, 2011)

I support just about every LBS in the Philly area.

-Mountain bike and assorted small parts from Human Zoom
-Road bike and pedals from Cadence
-Helmet, brake pads, assorted small parts, and hopefully some sweet wheels from Main Line Cycles
-Road bike fit, new road shoes, Osprey water pack from Breakaway Bikes
-Mountain bike shoes from Keswick Cycle

I admit, I buy jerseys from Performance because they're damn cheap and there's a retail outlet near me. But I hate that store. Breakaway is my favorite in the Philly area, and I have zero problem paying a bit extra for something from them. Every time I've bought something and checked the price I could have got it for online, the difference has been so minimal that I don't care


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## Spinning Lizard (Nov 27, 2009)

laherna said:


> Wrong! Jenson has a retail store and you can will call parts from the warehouse. Jenson is my LBS.


Just curious, how much do they charge for a tune up?


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## laherna (Jun 14, 2009)

Spinning Lizard said:


> Just curious, how much do they charge for a tune up?


Dont remember. The bike I bought (Yeti) came with lifetime tuneups! Next time Im in there I will look at the prices.:thumbsup:


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

liv_rong said:


> The LBS I have worked at part time for a few years every spring thrives by selling/catering to the average Joe. They are located next to a popular ice cream place and sell a ton of hybrids, kids bikes and entry level everything else. Their prices on parts and accessories are almost always marked up 75-100% above cost and have no problems doing this. Bikes are marked below MSRP. They sell over 500 bikes a year and do over 1000 tune ups a year on top of the other low ticket repairs. The neighborhood is middle class/upper middle class people who just dont know any better. The owner found the companies niche and does well with it, he doesnt even ride. Their "high end" customers who do spend a lot do not know how to do the simplest of tasks on their own bikes just the same as the total newbies walking in to buy a bike. Just dumb luck for him I guess.


That IS a great business model for a LBS that will compete against the internet sales monster. You make your money on the lower end stuff selling to average joes. The shops that cater to the high end have a hard time IMHO b/c many of those customers are do-it-yourselfers who just mailorder.


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## nmpearson (Aug 13, 2007)

one incredible donkey said:


> What a bunch of nonsense. If they can't compete, they're going to lose. It's a business, not a charity.


i didn't read this whole thread but this comment is so stupid! The freakin online retailers pull a 10% markup on everything when they don't even have it in stock. I wish there was a way to make it so retailers had to charge retail. They're the ones not following the rules. The lbs's are doing what they're supposed to do. What undercharging does is undervalue the product and it's killing the industry


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## schneidw (Mar 8, 2005)

fatcat said:


> A friend of mine owns a bike shop and has late payments due (his mechanic told me)
> and didn't buy hardly any 2012 bikes because of this and also the 2011 are still on the floor.
> Its a small shop in Los Angeles that carries GT, Haro and Diamondback. He invested $2 million in the shop and has 2 FT workers. Repairs keep the place going.
> 
> ...


Great post. Always want to support local (within reason) ... In your friends case, GT, Haro and DB are not brands with offerings that will bring people into the store... Not sure where $2M got spent... seems insanely high to me...


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## GoingOffRoading (Oct 16, 2011)

schneidw said:


> Great post. Always want to support local (within reason) ... In your friends case, GT, Haro and DB are not brands with offerings that will bring people into the store... Not sure where $2M got spent... seems insanely high to me...


Actually it's stupid post...



> PS--The internet is killing off old time brick and mortar stores but behind the scenes
> warehouses in God-knows-where seems to be flourishing. I guess its just a switcheroo
> of how business is done. Some ppl hate it, some love it. I think they can both survive with the right tactics.


The internet is not killing off brick and mortar stores... It's creating a more competitive marketplace... The LBS that's on the verge of going under needs to reinvent itself with better service, better products, better reputation, etc. And if they can't reinvent themselves, then they will go under.

Why should I pay top dollar for something if I can get the same service and product at a better price online? What VALUE does my LBS bring to me buying it there to make up for the difference? If that VALUE can't bridge the gap, then they are in the wrong market.


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## Bethany1 (Jan 18, 2012)

LBS needs to change the attitude of "if you don't/didn't buy the part from us, don't bring it in for us to install it" to deal with internet sales. Why would you turn down charging labor to install a part? 

That attitude just really grates on my nerves and defeats the purpose of a brick store. There are a lot of things I can't do and will pay for a LBS to do it for me. All it leaves me to believe is buy the part online and watch a YouTube video since my money isn't good enough in your store.


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## nmpearson (Aug 13, 2007)

Bethany1 said:


> LBS needs to change the attitude of "if you don't/didn't buy the part from us, don't bring it in for us to install it" to deal with internet sales. Why would you turn down charging labor to install a part?
> 
> That attitude just really grates on my nerves and defeats the purpose of a brick store. There are a lot of things I can't do and will pay for a LBS to do it for me. All it leaves me to believe is buy the part online and watch a YouTube video since my money isn't good enough in your store.


I agree with this halfway...i just left the owning the bike shop game. I was lucky to sell my shop and not really end up losing money. The hard thing is when you have the part in stock, the customers look at it and you talk to them about it, then they come back a few days later wanting you to install the same part that they got online for $20 cheaper. I come from a college town in utah with a big fr/dh scene and this legitimately happened.

we tried our best to put on a smile and i think that's why we were taken advantage of at times. I don't know if we came off as not caring about making a profit. Its super weird not going into a shop everyday but it does have its perks...i actually like biking again.


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## akacoke (May 11, 2011)

one incredible donkey said:


> What a bunch of nonsense. If they can't compete, they're going to lose. It's a business, not a charity.


i couldnt agree more. right in their face.

i hate LBS. i straight up hate them for their lil attitude and their over priced ****. they are all the same. they look at the way people dress . if you wear some fancy cloth. they treat you like youre the ****ing god. if you wear your PJ they dont give a crap about you in the store.


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## Iwanttorideatnight (Dec 21, 2011)

My LBS offer a life time tune up. However, I would be ashame if I don't buy something before I leave the shop. What I do before I exit my LBS is purchase some stuff that I need that would tantamount or exceed the cost of a tune up. On the other hand, as much as I wanted to support my LBS since it's where I bought my first bike in eighteen years. I always have an inkling that I need to look for another shop. It's a matter of customer service I guess?


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## nickcarll (Sep 4, 2007)

Brycentron said:


> supporting a LBS is very hard when 4/5 of them are a bunch of unfriendly dbagz. I live in ME and there arnt a lot of people in general so supporting local is something I really try to do. The LBS's here make it soooo hard


there are a few good shops left in the Maine area not sure where you live but bikeman is in maine, and my local shop usually gives a team discount...even though noone races for him..


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## one incredible donkey (Jul 19, 2007)

nmpearson said:


> i didn't read this whole thread but this comment is so stupid! The freakin online retailers pull a 10% markup on everything when they don't even have it in stock. I wish there was a way to make it so retailers had to charge retail. They're the ones not following the rules. The lbs's are doing what they're supposed to do. What undercharging does is undervalue the product and it's killing the industry


Haha - "the rules". Are you kidding? What "rules" are you talking about?

We've got a thriving online marketplace, ripe with competition among vendors, and options galore for buyers. If this was done by breaking "rules", I'd say they're doing something right.

Meanwhile (if you'd read the thread you'd know this), you've got brick & mortar stores selling a small selection of a few brands at high cost, providing subpar services, and offering elitist attitudes.

If anything, the industry seems to be thriving now that we've got all these choices. Manufacturers can put a direct ear into the marketplace and respond with as much agility as they're capable of producing.

I think you're confusing the bike industry with the brick & mortar industry, which is indeed suffering. But again, that's business.


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## jbl302 (Mar 3, 2012)

I've been working on my bike lately and purchasing from my LBS. Their prices are a little high, but I see that as the price to pay to have it in my hand now. Unless you get free shipping, the lower prices online aren't that really that great of a deal. Pay a few extra bucks to the LBS that has the part, and I can leave with it in my hand to go home today to work on my bike. Not a big deal.


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## Blurr (Dec 7, 2009)

nmpearson said:


> I agree with this halfway...i just left the owning the bike shop game. I was lucky to sell my shop and not really end up losing money. The hard thing is when you have the part in stock, the customers look at it and you talk to them about it, then they come back a few days later wanting you to install the same part that they got online for $20 cheaper. I come from a college town in utah with a big fr/dh scene and this legitimately happened.
> 
> we tried our best to put on a smile and i think that's why we were taken advantage of at times. I don't know if we came off as not caring about making a profit. Its super weird not going into a shop everyday but it does have its perks...i actually like biking again.


:madman:
Dude that is business, you take whatever money you can get and do not turn away customers because "they bought a part online and it wasnt mine" 
Business is about competition, you compete (which can be done in a variety of ways, good customer service is a major factor) or go home, you went home.


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## giantone (Dec 18, 2011)

This thread is pretty interesting. I purchased my newest bike at retail cost simply because the service I was looking for was there. The issue isn't so much internet vs lbs. It is service vs lack of service. Whichever avenue offers the best service wins period. Same as the amazon vs local bookstore debate.

sent from my bottom bracket while I creak


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## Bethany1 (Jan 18, 2012)

nmpearson said:


> I agree with this halfway...i just left the owning the bike shop game. I was lucky to sell my shop and not really end up losing money. The hard thing is when you have the part in stock, the customers look at it and you talk to them about it, then they come back a few days later wanting you to install the same part that they got online for $20 cheaper. I come from a college town in utah with a big fr/dh scene and this legitimately happened.
> 
> we tried our best to put on a smile and i think that's why we were taken advantage of at times. I don't know if we came off as not caring about making a profit. Its super weird not going into a shop everyday but it does have its perks...i actually like biking again.


It's different if the shop already has the part. I'd buy it right there and have the shop put it on even if it costs more. Or if we could work out some kind of a deal even better. If you spent the time to work with me and then I went and bought the part cheaper somewhere else wanting you to put it on, then I consider it rude.

It's hard being a consumer and sometimes I feel like I'm being held hostage by shops.

For example, I went and bought clipless pedals from a shop. They did a great fitting, but the pedals weren't going to work with my lack of coordination. I left and was in a retail store that had pedals I'd never seen before and figured I couldn't go wrong with trying them. I called back the shop and asked if they could help with another fitting as I bought some different pedals.

They grudgingly put the pedals on but they really didn't give me a fitting as they were swamped. When I asked if they ever carried the pedals, they said no but could order them. Sigh. I would have happily paid for another "real" fitting but they didn't seem interested.

Turns out the pedals are totally awesome. Sometimes it's not about cheaper, but availability of items and the different services shops offer. The retail store couldn't offer a fitting, but the shop that does wasn't happy I bought the pedals somewhere else. You can't win.


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## Fourtango (Mar 26, 2012)

My LBS blows, when I was looking for my new bike (2012 superfly al) they had a 2011 hifi leftover and wouldn't even talk about coming off the original msrp (so I bought it at another but a lot farther away bike shop) just this week my I busted my free hub and they charged me more for the part then I could buy the entire hub for! That's just ridiculous, I will not be giving them any more of my business. I'll drive the hour away the next time I need something.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

one incredible donkey said:


> What a bunch of nonsense. If they can't compete, they're going to lose. It's a business, not a charity.


Yeah, no kidding. If I owned a B&M shop I would also open an online store with a different name. It's adapt or fail.


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## GoingOffRoading (Oct 16, 2011)

Bethany1 said:


> LBS needs to change the attitude of "if you don't/didn't buy the part from us, don't bring it in for us to install it" to deal with internet sales. Why would you turn down charging labor to install a part?
> 
> That attitude just really grates on my nerves and defeats the purpose of a brick store. There are a lot of things I can't do and will pay for a LBS to do it for me. All it leaves me to believe is buy the part online and watch a YouTube video since my money isn't good enough in your store.


Completely agree... The shop still makes money on the labor of the install, generates a positive experience and in turn creates repeat business (I bought it on line but LBS installed it for me). The shop that says no looses a lot more than that day's business.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Bethany1 said:


> LBS needs to change the attitude of "if you don't/didn't buy the part from us, don't bring it in for us to install it" to deal with internet sales. Why would you turn down charging labor to install a part?
> 
> That attitude just really grates on my nerves and defeats the purpose of a brick store. There are a lot of things I can't do and will pay for a LBS to do it for me. All it leaves me to believe is buy the part online and watch a YouTube video since my money isn't good enough in your store.


I think its pretty bad too for shops to shun those who order online; I worked in a shop and would happily install mail-order stuff and enjoy the labor charges. However, its really a bummer when someone comes in with stuff like that b/c many times, we had it in stock or could have got it and worked on the price if that was an issue. They could have been riding sooner just buying it from us and having it installed mostly the same day. I can see it both ways. One other thing, after a customer comes in a few times with mailorder stuff, often if they have a good experience, they will start ordering/buying through you if you use salesmanship and explain that you can get them the same part etc. One other thing that used to steam me, people coming in expecting us to exchange/warranty things they bought online. Seriously, don't be a d-bag if you order online, deal with the downsides on your own!


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## nmpearson (Aug 13, 2007)

Blurr said:


> :madman:
> Dude that is business, you take whatever money you can get and do not turn away customers because "they bought a part online and it wasnt mine"
> Business is about competition, you compete (which can be done in a variety of ways, good customer service is a major factor) or go home, you went home.


all i'm saying is customers have been sucking atleast as much as some of the LBS. I want to say we did better than most in our area because we helped the customers, but yeah...we can be pissed when people save 3%. Why not just ask for the discount! I'd happily give someone a 10% discount if it meant that that part was gone. Time value of money shows that having the money and reinvesting it immediately is usually better than holding onto a larger margin.


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## Skeptastic (Mar 31, 2012)

nmpearson said:


> all i'm saying is customers have been sucking atleast as much as some of the LBS. I want to say we did better than most in our area because we helped the customers, but yeah...we can be pissed when people save 3%. Why not just ask for the discount! I'd happily give someone a 10% discount if it meant that that part was gone. Time value of money shows that having the money and reinvesting it immediately is usually better than holding onto a larger margin.


I really do understand where you're coming from, but from a customer's perspective, it gets a little tiring if you're repeatedly having to ask for a price match. You're often made to feel like you're troubling the sales person, and in the end, it would be easier if some shops would be more competitive and set their prices a bit more reasonably. I pretty much buy what is the same price from my LBS, but am always looking to save, as money is super tight these days. Still, $5 in savings means little to me, while $20 in savings on an item that is in the $50 to $100 range will most certainly lead me to go with the lower pricing. It often makes us customers feel just as bad as the shop might, but we've got to take care of ourselves as well. It's a tough situation overall.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

Heretic Skeptic said:


> I really do understand where you're coming from, but from a customer's perspective, it gets a little tiring if you're repeatedly having to ask for a price match.


Word! I generally don't play the price-matching game. It's just not worth the hassle, and what's the benefit to me? I've already found the part at a price I'm willing to pay, so why not reward the seller who offers it at that price? It makes no sense to reward the seller who *doesn't* offer a good price.


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

Brick-and-morter versus Internet:

* Sales tax probably needs to happen. I won't like it, but it's probably time. 

* I often wonder whether it's possible to monitize the browsing experience. There is value to brrowsing in a local store. How does one measure and charge for that value independent from selling product? 

It isn't just bike shops that deal w/these issues.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

JonathanGennick said:


> * Sales tax probably needs to happen. I won't like it, but it's probably time.


If we could only do away with sales tax!

As a consumer, I'd be SUPER HAPPY if the LBS would basically have prices listed *WITH TAX INCLUDED*, and target the end price within reason of competitive.

It was a little thing really, but when I lived in Europe the "sales tax" (VAT?) was built in to the item price, for items that were taxable. For some reason this just seemed a more pleasant experience then getting the addition 5-8% added on at the register.



JonathanGennick said:


> ... monitize the browsing experience ...


Interesting thought, but could be very hard to sell. Basically charging an entrance fee. Or maybe that's an exit fee? You can come it but you can't leave until you spend some cash?


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

bear said:


> Interesting thought, but could be very hard to sell. Basically charging an entrance fee. Or maybe that's an exit fee? You can come it but you can't leave until you spend some cash?


I haven't figured that part out yet.

For a bike shop, perhaps charge a fee to be able to take a bike off the rack and sit on it and test it for size. Just looking? Fine. But pay if you touch it.

Perhaps a "browsing fee", kind of like a cover-charge at a bar.

Perhaps a membership fee. Pay each year for the privilege of being able to walk in and browse the stock.

I dunno. I really haven't figured out an approach that I can believe in. There is value in being able to browse in a physical store. How does one capture that value? Historically it has been through sales. But today those sales often go online. Bookstores like Borders, technology stores like Best Buy, all face the same issue.


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## elcaro1101 (Sep 1, 2011)

This thread is full of complete nonsense. The responses that put the responsibility on the customer to spend more money for the same product are laughable.

The Internet has caused havoc in almost all businesses that rely on their sales figures to thrive. This is not a issue only for local bicycle stores. If you don't learn to work with the Internet as part of your business plan, the you had better have a product that is not available anywhere else. Or as others have said, concentrate on the labor/repair side of the industry.

*edit* I missed the last few responses until after I posted. Now I'm not sure why I even did. I'm going to leave this brain trust to do its work trying to recreate the laws of commerce and go ride my bike.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

lidarman said:


> If you can't do your own service, then LBS is an awesome place. Don't think of buying stuff then taking it down to them to install it. I saw a sign once that said;
> 
> "You don't take raw steak to a restaurant and ask them to cook it, so don't bring parts to us and ask us to install them!


That is just stupid on many levels. I've bought frames and components on line and my bike store has assembled them into complete bikes with no complaints.

In fact, it has never crossed my mind that they would do otherwise. I am paying them for their services. Not to mention I have nice bikes and they seem really interested in working on them.

That store with the sign deserves to go out of business. Their business model is stupid.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

JonathanGennick said:


> ... But today those sales often go online. Bookstores like Borders, technology stores like Best Buy, all face the same issue ...


Witness the wide-spread closure of many retail stores, like Best Buy putting out that 50 stores are going away. Borders closing all it's stores last year is another brick and mortar deat. I can only believe that will become MORE wide spread in more ways over time.

I also believe that there is value in having a local shop with content that can be directly handled, but it IS definitely a tough road to go on. Local shops can NOT compete on product line and accessory type stuff availability - not when you compare what is available in single online locations - thinking Wrench Science and Jenson and Universal - forget about aggregations such that Amazon represents. Local shops must become "on-line-plus" locations I fear. I don't know how that works though, I know that I don't have the disposition to work or manage retail so I won't bother guessing.

Before truly invasive internet access it was a lot easier I think for retail to compete, and I would not call internet access PERVASIVE yet, but it's getting there. For example, the tide is turning such that soon smart-phones will out-number dumb-phones (US) nationally, and will eventually globally, and every one of those smart phones is a "MID" (Mobile Internet Device) by any reasonable definition. Look to the impact of smart-phone access to all the tech/etc shops.

Maybe the larger "experience" stores are one way to go (thinking REI and Cabela's and related).

For The Masses, the "one box store that has all I need" will probably always be around too (thinking Walmart) and will probably only get larger in scope.


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## Hand/of/Midas (Sep 19, 2007)

A LBS needs to become the hub for the community, doing lots of fun rides, being a place to hangout, and a place for cycling passion to flourish. This takes a lot of "work" for the bike shop, but if it's what we are passionate about, its very rewarding. 

Community, Community, Community.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

elcaro1101 said:


> This thread is full of complete nonsense. The responses that put the responsibility on the customer to spend more money for the same product are laughable.
> 
> The Internet has caused havoc in almost all businesses that rely on their sales figures to thrive. This is not a issue only for local bicycle stores. If you don't learn to work with the Internet as part of your business plan, the you had better have a product that is not available anywhere else. Or as others have said, concentrate on the labor/repair side of the industry.
> 
> *edit* I missed the last few responses until after I posted. Now I'm not sure why I even did. I'm going to leave this brain trust to do its work trying to recreate the laws of commerce and go ride my bike.


The one comment that I don't 100% agree with is "The responses that put the responsibility on the customer to spend more money for the same product are laughable." Is it the same product? If I order a set of Avid brakes online from Pricepoint for $120 and install them myself (b/c I can) that is not the same as someone ordering them from Pricepoint and walking into a LBS and asking them to install them (and maybe not having all the necessary adapters etc.) - its not necessariy the same "product" and in the end, it may actually cost more for that person b/c of shipping, having to potentially buy the right adapter at the LBS, and the fact that the LBS may discount the install cost if you buy it there. What is the total cost is really what is pertinent. If it is $160 in the shop installed, that isn't that bad of deal even though its $40 more than online. I think with parts/accessories, we (on this board) are always assuming that people have the knowledge to 1) order the right parts and 2) install them correctly. There are plenty of bike shops making it just fine without having to do online sales.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

One other thought...what ever happened to be a salesman? Maybe the kids these struggling LBSs hire need to go back to old-school selling techniques? If you get a customer in a store and they are looking at a part/accessory that is in stock and ready to go out the door, and they decide to leave and order it online to save $10, someone need a good lesson in being a salesman. Nobody llike pushing sales types, but its not rocket science to sell without being a d-bag, you talk it up and make them want to buy it then and now.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

+5 on "community, community" - I really miss hanging out at Hammerhead Bikes in Austin, I used to take lunch there (often taking lunch for the resident's with me), back in the day.


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## GoingOffRoading (Oct 16, 2011)

bear said:


> Local shops can NOT compete on product line and accessory type stuff availability


I call BS... If it is true, I found a market niche for anybody that wants a million dollar idea.

I'm sure every LBS has access to a distributor that has a lot of this stuff in stock. Or could get creative and maybe setup an account to wholesale with companies like Jensen.

That stuff isn't rocket science and if the LBS can't adapt to very basic things, then they won't be in business long.


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

GoingOffRoading said:


> I call BS... If it is true, I found a market niche for anybody that wants a million dollar idea.


There will be some shops that reside in affluent enough areas, but how many of them have the "ship today" stock in variety and depth of stuff that is available online?

From my consumer point of view, they basically need to have the same breadth and depth of crap available within, say, the 3rd business day to be "delivery competitive" with online offerings.

Even when I lived in Austin TX custom order stuff (e.g. shop ordered from distributor, not from higher up the food chain nor for custom fabrication of something) usually took a week. I attributed that to how far away Austin was from Everything Else, but I don't really know. That was with a shop that did a LOT of business and was very well established (Bicycle Sport Shop).

The shops that I have local now seem challenged to make it on weekly boundaries for special order stuff. I could have had bad luck so far however, I've only had 4- or 6- things so far in 3 years that I've ordered through them.

I will also put it out there that I am *not* near the middle of their major support/sales demographic. It is my perception that for a significant part of my community I am sure they have on hand exactly what they need (or what they convince the community is needed).



GoingOffRoading said:


> I'm sure every LBS has access to a distributor that has a lot of this stuff in stock.


Agreed, and in my area for at least some distributors they should be able to arrange delivery next-business-day without extreme expense (distributor center < 100 miles away) depending on when the order is placed.

It depends more on how the shop executes it's operations, I guess. They certainly can't be lazy/slack/disorganized about it.

It's an interesting comparison for me to make that if I need a specific electronics thingy that I can get from Newegg, and I order it by around 1pm, I usually have it in my mailbox by end of next day - without paying nor asking for expedited delivery. That's just how efficient their organization is at order fulfillment coupled with my geographic proximity to them. And no, I don't have a decent electronic thingy store where I live - the best local options are Best Buy and Radio Shack. Eek.

Similar delivery times can be had from UC if what is ordered is available from their Michigan (?) warehouse, for me, with cheap-azz shipping.

Bringing it back to the center, how does the LBS compete with online, profitably?

- lean efficient operations
- not dropping the ball, often anyway - good organization - no "paper-napkin" management
- being knowledgeable about options and open about what they don't know
- have a soul, be an activity center?
- being good at helping customers with what is needed
- having a solid distributor relationship, with an effective distributor
- transparency on anything that takes more than a few days time (on demand, not saying they should be daily updating customers on special orders and stuff, but honest about known- and unknown-delay factors)
- honest about setting expectations
- ???


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Spinning Lizard said:


> Most online prices on parts are lower then wholesale prices for LBS's. So tell me how do they compete? Mark below their wholesale price? That would seem to be not a very good business model.


Get a better wholesale deal.


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## petersbike (Apr 5, 2006)

Yea I agree, I bought a set of Stans rims on the web for a sweet price and had Boulder Cycle Sport build them up along with the hubs that I also purchased on line. They built them up for a very fair price and besides labor I purchased the spokes from them. They did a great job! 
The builder completely understood my buying the rims and hubs on line though. Money! I did invest a bit of time looking and waiting for a great deal on what I wanted. 
A person buying parts on line and having a LBS install still contributes to that LBS. BTW those wheels are great and I ended up having a second pair of wheels built up by the BCS shop and when someone asks me where I got those wheels I tell them I do not know where I bought them but I had them built by BCS. 

Walt Peters


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## bear (Feb 3, 2004)

Axe said:


> Get a better wholesale deal.


Is that always possible? I am under the impression that the wholesale/supplier prices had some tie in to volume of sales.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

bear said:


> Is that always possible? I am under the impression that the wholesale/supplier prices had some tie in to volume of sales.


Then sell something else and explain to your customers why they should buy that instead. It has to be possible - I see too many examples of smaller shops doing just fine.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Things change. The internet happens. The only constant in business is change. If an LBS wants to be competitive, there are things they have to do. How many have a website allowing you to order parts and more importantly, see exactly what they have in stock? How many put in time to scour through QBP and BTI blowouts to get parts at decent prices that riders might want, and even sometimes ordering parts from Jenson or someone else would turn more of a profit! How many LBSs try to change the nature of their business or some other fundamental part of it, to get into markets they haven't, to do things that they previously haven't, to market themselves better, and so on? If they are just sitting back complaining about everyone that is going to mail-order, then maybe they deserve to die. If they are doing something about it to remain competitive in ways mail-order can not offer, then ok. How many LBS just stare at you like you asked them to perform open-heart surgery when you ask about a damper-rebuild or particular component combo? Then they wonder why no one goes there and they have poor business. The point is that if you want to be successful, you have to do what's necessary, and sitting back and hoping some business model that worked at one time will always work is a recipe for failure. Too many LBSs employ the recipe for failure.


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## wintersolstice (Feb 26, 2012)

Very good point.

That's true of all small businesses - you have to provide a really *good* reason for customers to pick you. I wish it applied to large businesses too, but so many of them retreat to advertising and the bigger idiot theory.


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## Bethany1 (Jan 18, 2012)

The shipping/ordering time would really step up a lot of LBS sales and if a local store can ship out their product within a hundred mile radius that would service the rural people outside the city.

I really don't want to make a 30 dollar round trip to Omaha/Lincoln for a part I can order online and get it shipped to me for a few bucks. If you have it already in stock when I call, ship it out. I'll pay for the box and postage. 95% of the stuff I buy is online due to lack of availability.


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## james-42 (Jan 19, 2012)

This article might make it a little easier to shop at your LBS: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave | Mother Jones


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

james-42 said:


> This article might make it a little easier to shop at your LBS: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave | Mother Jones


Why? Should we feel guilt over anybody laboring anywhere?


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## JJIV (Nov 11, 2011)

I recently needed some more Stan's sealant so I looked up the price online, $21.98 and free 2 day shipping with Amazon prime, or 24.95 plus s/h directly from Stan's. I head down to my LBS and I see that they were selling the same quart of Stan's sealant for 29.99. I tell the shop owner that I can get the same bottle directly from the manufacturer for 24.95 and they say that the best that they can do is to lower the price to $27. I'm all for supporting the LBS, but I'm not a charity either. They gave me some story about them buying the sealant from a distributor and they need to make money selling products. 

I ended up paying the extra money, but I'm never buying any more accessories from them. :nono: The wonderful thing about this country is that there is competition, and if the competition is selling something for a cheaper price then as a company you must adapt.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

So, $24.95+s/h will be about the same or more than the $27...what is the issue? Really, its a few bucks and they had it right then and you were already there. I agree with the competition statement, but its not like the shop price was that much more b/c you didn't factor in the shipping plus the time you have to wait. If your example was something like a suspension fork for $750 at the LBS and you can get it for $450 online, well, that is a different ball of wax.


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

It's still absurd for a shop to charge more than MSRP for anything. It's completely disrespectful to the customer.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

TiGeo said:


> So, $24.95+s/h will be about the same or more than the $27...what is the issue? Really, its a few bucks and they had it right then and you were already there. I agree with the competition statement, but its not like the shop price was that much more b/c you didn't factor in the shipping plus the time you have to wait.


It adds up.

And more often than not you have to wait longer to get stuff from LBS. And spend time and gas to drive there twice.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Here is a business idea for you: replicate the TechShop.

Get a room, lots of tools, and a mechanic/owner on stuff who can help with complicated items like suspension rebuilds. Charge a low monthly fee so people can stop by and fix/build their internet purchased bikes. Provide basic consumables, hold swap meets, training etc.

In a place like Silicon Valley you could probably make money on that.


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## Eric Z (Sep 28, 2008)

any brick and mortar store has to adapt to how business works today. there's one constant though- customer service. strong customer service and being personable goes a long way. i still get frustrated thinking about a lbs in the chicago suburbs who told me my rim isn't bent on my wife's bike i just bought, it's the tire. when i challenged them, they were all pissed. how hard is it to lift up the back wheel, put your finger on the rim and spin it.

i totally agree with the post about a successful lbs has to be involved in the community and lead group rides, etc. making it an experience is what it's all about.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Axe said:


> It adds up.
> 
> And more often than not you have to wait longer to get stuff from LBS. And spend time and gas to drive there twice.


Yes, but this poster was talking about something that was in stock. I agree with you on the comment about drive/gas. If I am going to drive to the shop, they don't have what I want so they order it, and then I have to drive back a few days later to pay more, well, that is a no-brainer - go online. But if its $5 more (for Stan's) and they have it, again, no-brainer..time is money..buy it at the shop and move on.


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## mbikerguy (Jul 16, 2011)

JonathanGennick said:


> I haven't figured that part out yet.
> 
> For a bike shop, perhaps charge a fee to be able to take a bike off the rack and sit on it and test it for size. Just looking? Fine. But pay if you touch it.
> 
> ...


I saw one business that states if you didn't buy part from them there would be a 20% surcharge on labor.


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## JJIV (Nov 11, 2011)

TiGeo said:


> So, $24.95+s/h will be about the same or more than the $27...what is the issue? Really, its a few bucks and they had it right then and you were already there. I agree with the competition statement, but its not like the shop price was that much more b/c you didn't factor in the shipping plus the time you have to wait. If your example was something like a suspension fork for $750 at the LBS and you can get it for $450 online, well, that is a different ball of wax.


I agree with you, which is why I paid the $27 to support the shop instead of $21.98 and free 2 day shipping from Amazon. Hell, I got in my car and drove all the way to the shop - I probably spent the differece in gas. A couple weeks before they charged me $15 more than MSRP for the stans tubeless kit. It was my fault for not being an informed customer. I didn't actually realize that I was overcharged until after I bought more sealant and decided to go back and double check the price.

The point being that the shop should not be charging more than MSRP if they want to build a lasting customer base. I guess I automatically assumed, like most people I'm sure, that when the shop puts the price on an item it's at least gonig to be MSRP, not an amount greater than MSRP.

It's actually a little insulting as a customer and I definitely left the shop feeling like I had been duped. How many other items have I bought there that they have charged me over MSRP? So for making an extra $5 on a quart of sealant and an extra $15 on the no tubes kit they risk losing a customer forever - not smart business if you ask me.

Either way, shame on me for not being an informed consumer. From now on I will not make that mistake again, which means I will most certainly not be shopping at that particular LBS anymore, which staying on topic, is another example of why some LBS are not doing well.


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## Eric Z (Sep 28, 2008)

mbikerguy said:


> I saw one business that states if you didn't buy part from them there would be a 20% surcharge on labor.


that's just stupid. obviously a lbs benefits if you buy the part from them _and_ they install it, but they should be pleased with any type of business. of course to each their own but don't be surprised when customers may not want to do business there.


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## warimono (Nov 23, 2010)

Eric Z said:


> that's just stupid. obviously a lbs benefits if you buy the part from them _and_ they install it, but they should be pleased with any type of business. of course to each their own but don't be surprised when customers may not want to do business there.


If the verbage was more like " buy parts here get 20% off labor" it would sound much better but still mean the same thing. That to me doesn't sound stupid at all.

Knowing that it means the same but sounds different, is it still stupid?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

warimono said:


> If the verbage was more like " buy parts here get 20% off labor" it would sound much better but still mean the same thing. That to me doesn't sound stupid at all.
> 
> Knowing that it means the same but sounds different, is it still stupid?


I think the 20% off installation labor if you purchase the parts in the shop is a great way to help combat online sales and will make the total price of purchase more competitive for the retailer. I heard more than once working in the shop when someone would say "So its the same labor to install it whether I buy it from you or mailorder? I wil just order it and save the cost and have you install it." The only thing I could come back with was "If it doesn't fit etc. we won't be able to exchange it for you, you will need to send it back the place you bought it from yadda yadda"

I also think when you say "surcharge" it starts off as being too negative and goes with along with the negative feeling lots of people get at LBSs.


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## warimono (Nov 23, 2010)

Idea of trying to reward for the "good" behavior instead of punishing for the "bad" behavior.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Eric Z said:


> that's just stupid. obviously a lbs benefits if you buy the part from them _and_ they install it, but they should be pleased with any type of business. of course to each their own but don't be surprised when customers may not want to do business there.


Somebody did not listen in Business 101. You give discounts, not add surcharges - even if the final price is the same.


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## Eric Z (Sep 28, 2008)

Axe said:


> Somebody did not listen in Business 101. You give discounts, not add surcharges - even if the final price is the same.


i agree with the discount piece. and i do think it sounds better to say a discount is given to someone who purchases the part from the lbs instead of a surcharge if it's not purchased there.

i understand lbs are trying to make a living and hopefully turn a profit- it's just sad and unfortunate many owners don't know how to change with the economy and internets world.


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## Eric Z (Sep 28, 2008)

warimono said:


> If the verbage was more like " buy parts here get 20% off labor" it would sound much better but still mean the same thing. That to me doesn't sound stupid at all.
> 
> Knowing that it means the same but sounds different, is it still stupid?


definitely not as stupid. how you phrase and explain things to a customer is so important- in any industry.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

OneBadWagon said:


> It's still absurd for a shop to charge more than MSRP for anything. It's completely disrespectful to the customer.


But it's ok for the customer to routinely expect the shop to sell at under MSRP????  Respect is a two-way street. If that shop is rocking and people are happy then the customers must feel that they are getting a fair value for the money spent.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

redmr2_man said:


> where are you investing at 8%?


Plenty of good income opportunities out there. I'm averaging well over 8% in that section of my portfolio. Those are almost all dividend yeilds as well.....15% fed tax rate. :thumbsup:


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## BoiseBoy (Mar 1, 2006)

*Exactly!*



one incredible donkey said:


> What a bunch of nonsense. If they can't compete, they're going to lose. It's a business, not a charity.


Would you go down to Best Buy and buy a CD because you feel sorry that everybody purchases their music on iTunes?

I think that you will eventually see bigger-box stores Like Performance carrying more of the high-end bikes because of their economy of scale. These types of stores already have warehouse pricing and i could eventually see them carrying the big line ups like Spec, Trek, Cannondale, Giant etc...

I have given some of our LBS's the chance to earn my business by asking what kind of deal they can give me on part "X". If they make it worth my while, then I will purchase it for slightly more on-site. If they don't make an effort to give me a deal then I straight out tell them that I am going to Performance or ordering it on-line where I can find it at a significantly cheaper price. Some bike shops get while others are clueless.


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## bballr4567 (Mar 12, 2006)

$2 million??? Geez. 

I try to support my LBS and just recently I bought some bike shorts in there despite being able to get them cheaper online because I needed to see what size I wore.


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## cheezy (Mar 27, 2012)

smmokan said:


> Unless you're being sarcastic, I wouldn't call Jenson or Universal LBS's.... in fact, they're probably the "big online warehouses" that the guy is complaining about.
> 
> (by the way, I buy from UC all the time)


UC is definitely considered a LBS if you live near one. I'm in portland and their store looks like any other hole in the wall local bike shop and they also do any labor work a "normal" bike shop does a long with having their own wheel builder. Just because they have a warehouse type style online service doesn't make it any less a LBS if you live near one.

Now their bike knowledge imo isn't the best in town... and I personally would rather go to Fat Tire Farm for certain things like suspension knowledge. Fat Tire Farm has a great staff (just there today picking up a frame) nice, friendly and truthful. They also price match.


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## finch6013 (Jul 9, 2011)

UC and Fat Tire Farm are my two lbs's of choice. UC for their stock, selection and price. Fat tire farm for their knowledge,service, and general love for our local trails.


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## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

STT GUY said:


> But it's ok for the customer to routinely expect the shop to sell at under MSRP????  Respect is a two-way street. If that shop is rocking and people are happy then the customers must feel that they are getting a fair value for the money spent.


MSRP is generally considered the pricepoint that a manufacturer designs a product around. In very few (read:almost none) does pricing extend above what a manufacturer recommends.

If a Doritos big grab had $1.29 printed on the package, and the store tried to charge you $1.50 for it, would you have an issue?

I'm not saying that bike shops should give stuff away, but I have a fairly good understanding of retail sales, and for any sort of specialty retail to sell stuff at full MSRP, their service and reputation would have to be VERY strong. If a store consistently sells stuff for more than it's supposed to cost, then they are most certainly walking away customers.


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## madbomber99 (Mar 9, 2012)

I guess I am lucky. I live about 30 minutes from 15 different bike shops. And have a great relationship with quite a few of them. The one gives me 15% off everything without asking. He will also match most online prices. Sometimes he can't. Just yesterday another knocked a 2012 yeti sb66 race 36 off 12% because I was paying cash. And that bike has been hard to come by. And converted over my tires tubeless for 30 bucks. A lot of times if you tell them what you can get it for and see what they can do for you they can knock the price down a little. Bike parts, accs and clothing have crazy margin. While bikes themselves not so much. Quite a few of the shops here also do online sales. Maybe this is something your friend should look into. Also looking at the brands of bikes your friend is selling I don't see any that are going to drive a lot of business in compared to other stores and brands.


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## Skeptastic (Mar 31, 2012)

JonathanGennick said:


> Word! I generally don't play the price-matching game. It's just not worth the hassle, and what's the benefit to me? I've already found the part at a price I'm willing to pay, so why not reward the seller who offers it at that price? It makes no sense to reward the seller who *doesn't* offer a good price.


It really isn't worth the hassle, indeed. I hate the thought of having to ask for a price match more than once, _especially_ if it's for low-priced accessories. Bikes are easier to deal with, as all parties involved will clearly understand someone wanting to save a few hundred bucks, and you're not gonna buy as many bikes as you will accessories. With accessories, you'll be asking for a price match way too often.

And I hear you about rewarding the seller who offers the best price. I understand then value of being able to try stuff out in person, but in the end, these shops have got to be in tune with just how many places folks are able to get lower pricing on a large amount of items they keep in stock. It's really up to them. My LBS does seem to do fairly well with having items priced near online store pricing, but not for everything. Some of the prices are solid, but some are so far off, it's kind of nutty.


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## kfallscody (Apr 17, 2012)

My LBS does real good, IMHO. They sell at MSRP and sometimes below... even better when things go on clearance for 10-30% off(is how I picked up a brand new Giant TCX 0, 30% off MSRP). Also if you have purchased a bike from them before, you get 5% off the bike... and also get 10% off any accessories for life. 

I just had them order me a Castelli jersey and I got it for 10% less than MSRP.. cheaper than I could find it online and it was here in 4 days. They are just great guys... also helps I am friends with the manager.. but regardless, great guys.


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## Skeptastic (Mar 31, 2012)

kfallscody said:


> My LBS does real good, IMHO. They sell at MSRP and sometimes below... even better when things go on clearance for 10-30% off(is how I picked up a brand new Giant TCX 0, 30% off MSRP). Also if you have purchased a bike from them before, you get 5% off the bike... and also get 10% off any accessories for life.
> 
> I just had them order me a Castelli jersey and I got it for 10% less than MSRP.. cheaper than I could find it online and it was here in 4 days. They are just great guys... also helps I am friends with the manager.. but regardless, great guys.


That sounds awesome. I keep hearing about these types of shops, and I guess you either find one, or you don't. You must love that shop!


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## kfallscody (Apr 17, 2012)

I do love that shop! I was in there sunday and had them order me a Specialized Ground Control 2.1 29er tire, they called today saying it was in. Can't argue with that... three days and 10% off...


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