# 18650 Reliability??



## 47mph (Nov 3, 2014)

I bought 2 Panasonic 3100 mah batteries "Made in Japan".
After a couple of cycles 1 would not recharge. Contacted the seller and he sent a replacement. After about 6 cycles one of them will not recharge. Waiting for reply from seller who advertised "500 cycles".


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Don't know what you've got, but are they with protection circuit? Some picture might help to. Which is the seller?
Panasonics are one of the best if not the best cells, so something wierd is going with yours.

Also what charger do you use?


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## 47mph (Nov 3, 2014)

Brand New "2" Panasonic NCR18650A 3.7V 3100mah Li-on Battery, Made in Japan

Specifications:

Nominal voltage 3.6-3.7V
Lowest permitted discharge voltage - 2.5 V
Cycle life - 500 cycles
Recommended charge current - .9A (.3C)
Max charging rate - 3.1 Amps (1C)
Max working discharge current - 6.2A
Max discharge current - 8.5A
Do not short circuit - High current will be discharged
Diameter: 18.4 mm
Height: 69.7 mm

Don't all Panasonics Made in Japan have protection ciricuits?

Seller is Saftymind on EBay.

My charger is rated 1200mah @3.6v, well within Specs.

Photo Brand New "2" Panasonic 18650 NCR18650A 3 7V 3100mAh Li on Battery Japan Made | eBay


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## 47mph (Nov 3, 2014)

Also bought a couple of low buck 18650's off Ebay. Photo did not show the brand. When they arrived, they were (don't waste your money on this brand) Ultrasonics. After 1 use, 1 battery would not recharge. Contacted seller, awaiting promised refund.


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## 47mph (Nov 3, 2014)

I would suggest placing a piece of masking tape on the side of any 18650 and making a mark on the tape for each recharge. That way, if they should fail prematurely, contact the seller with the number of recharges.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

Not an electonics geek but from what I understand the button tops are "protected" but the flat tops are not, and the protection is against short circuiting, not overcharge or over-discharge. Perhaps someone else here can verify this?

47mph, which charger are you using in particular? Just curious, because I recently purchased an XTAR VC4, which can supposedly rescue overly-discharged cells. Haven't had a chance to test this feature out yet because all my Panasonics still seem to be okay. But if you're in the States, you can PM me for my address and mail me the non-charging battery along with a SASE, and I'll give it a go for you.

"2. 0V activation function which rescues your overly discharged batteries when in most cases the batteries must be discarded. With our chargers you can bring them back to life." Thought they had a video on the site demonstrating this but can't find it right now. Well here's one of the VC2 performing that task:


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Any possibility that the "Panasonic" cells are counterfeit? I do not recall the website, but there was a place in China that makes the shrinkwrap for 18650's and you could have them print anything on them you wanted.


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## 47mph (Nov 3, 2014)

The batteries are listed as having a "Lowest permitted discharge voltage - 2.5 V". Is not that a protection circuit? 

Also, the batteries were listed as "Made in Japan" in the title and in the description. The seller has a 5 star rating.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

47mph said:


> The batteries are listed as having a "Lowest permitted discharge voltage - 2.5 V". Is not that a protection circuit?


Pretty sure that just means that the batteries cannot be drained below 2.5V without dying, not that there is any mechanism to prevent them from doing so. Most lamps have their own cut-off point built in somewhere above that level but if one of your batteries can no longer be recharged then like ledoman said something weird is going on somewhere. Unless your batteries are fake but that doesn't seem too likely if most of them perform as advertised. Still, who knows.


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

47mph said:


> Don't all Panasonics Made in Japan have protection ciricuits?


No. Not even single one.



> My charger is rated 1200mah @3.6v, well within Specs.


Based on that statement, I'd say it's either wrong one, or there's mistype somewhere. Could you post the picture of charger's label, or link to its manufacturer/seller?


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes, the charger is suspicious by those data. Also the contacts on the charger might be bad or not suitable for unprotected cells. Button top cells might be more suitable.


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

Second question is, what namely device is used with these cells? For example, putting unprotected cell into, e.g., incandescent torch (does anyone remember them? ) will technically allow complete discharge, thus killing it.


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## 47mph (Nov 3, 2014)

The tail light is a 1200Lm Lumens CREE XM-L T6 LED Bicycle Light 


And the headlight is a SolarStorm2.


And here's my 2 cell battery rig


Tail light gets used a lot, headlight, rarely.


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## 47mph (Nov 3, 2014)

Here's the rating on my charger:


So, if the battery specs are
"Recommended charge current - .9A (.3C)
Max charging rate - 3.1 Amps (1C)"

Why is the charger the wrong one? 
.9A < 1.2A < 3.1A


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

47mph said:


> Why is the charger the wrong one?
> .9A < 1.2A < 3.1A


It's correct one. You've just used "mAh" instead of "mA" previously, so I had to verify. 

Real charge current of that charger is about 400 mA, so it will charge very slowly, and don't terminate when full - so, monitoring the time is recommended. BTW, it's worth to check whether its voltage switch is in correct position, and preferably - measure actual voltage w/o cell.

Without exact measurements, it's hard to determine the roots of problem, but in general, if I'm faced with some issue in "premium Japanese cells + cheap Chinese charger" system, I'd suspect the latter...


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## 47mph (Nov 3, 2014)

The charger has an LED that changes from red when charging to green when fully charged.


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

That's good.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

I hope you have switch in the 4.2V position. Here is brief review of that charger:
Huangao All in one Charger [ HG-1210W ]


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

ok that set up is just scary! knowing what lithium ion cells can do if something goes wrong..... omg.....

And also unless I missed a detail about the set up, there is nothing protecting the cells from over discharge.

then reading the info on the charger....EEK over charging is possible!!!! Thats a burnt down house waiting to happen.

LI-Ion cells are not something to throw together like a set of rechargable AAs or a NiCad battery pack. LiIons require specific use, proper set up, and proper use. Your lucky you used panasonics and only killed them, didnt detonate them. But they are low amp output cells (thank god). 

If your going to use a set up like that, BUY PROTECTED CELLS. THen charger issues wont matter, you wont kill cells on that set up cause they will cut off power before being damaged.

Not trying to sound like some doom and gloom, but when guys that know these thing well relate a serious cell failure to that of the chernobal distaster (worst nuclear disaster in history, in russia) should give you some idea of how volatile LiIon batteries are.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

The Anatomy of a Protected Battery

4pcs Panasonic NCR18650B 3400mAh Protected Rechargeable Li ion Batteries Case | eBay


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## 47mph (Nov 3, 2014)

BOGUS ALERT??



tigris99 said:


> ...If your going to use a set up like that, BUY PROTECTED CELLS. ....


Don't all Panasonics Made in Japan have protection circuits?



-Archie- said:


> No. Not even single one.


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

4pcs Protected Panasonic NCR18650BE 18650 3200mAh Rechargeable Battery with PCB | eBay









Apparently all Li-Ions offered for sale in the USA must come with [resettable] protection against overheating and over-amping, as well as a one-time pressure release valve; protection against overcharging/over-discharging is available on cells with the additional PCB. Though I must say that the protected cells offered above do look suspiciously after-market, as the ribbon is not concealed under the wrap. Think the SoShine batteries illustrated in the article I linked to earlier (Anatomy of a Battery) were actually re-wrapped Japanese Panasonics. Finished battery said Made in China.


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## -Archie- (Aug 25, 2013)

andychrist said:


> Though I must say that the protected cells offered above do look suspiciously after-market, as the ribbon is not concealed under the wrap.


Using transparent secondary wrap when adding protection PCB is pretty much standard now, specifically to avoid any questions about cell inside. And all of them are "after-market" products...


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Panasonic does not make protected cells. After-market companies add protection circuits (this is why you hear of Panasonic cells branded and sold as "orbtronic, EVVA, KeepPower, etc. . .". And no Andy, Li-Ions do NOT require protection circuits to be sold in the US, numerous US sellers sell unprotected cells (like Mountain Electronics).

Cells with protection circuits should be identifiable by the "groove/indentation" that appears at the negative end. Very good information with pictures on HKJ's website: The Anatomy of a Protected Battery . In rare instances the protection circuit is on the top of the cell as in these Protected Sanyo's from DX.

Please OP, get a good reliable 18650 charger.

-Garry


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## garrybunk (Feb 12, 2014)

Want to make your own Ultrafire "4,200mAh" 18650's out of recycled Laptop cells? Here you go: https://www.fasttech.com/products/1425/10012801/2157402 .

Want to make your own Samsung 18650 26F's? Here, you'll need these: https://www.fasttech.com/products/1...650-battery-sleeve-pvc-heat-shrinkable-tubing .

-Garry


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## andychrist (Aug 25, 2011)

garrybunk said:


> And no Andy, Li-Ions do NOT require protection circuits to be sold in the US, numerous US sellers sell unprotected cells...
> 
> -Garry


Guess I wasn't clear, didn't say protection _circuits_ were required for sale, just that they were available as an addition (in so-called "Protected" cells.) But the other two measures of protection described in Anatomy of Protected Battery (which I myself cited twice above) are apparantly mandatory: over-heat/over-circuit, and pressure relief (valve.) You can actually see the three vents for the later on the positive end of the flat-top, "non-protected" Panasonics if you look real close. 









Agree, don't risk flakey chargers!!!


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

47mph said:


> BOGUS ALERT??
> 
> Don't all Panasonics Made in Japan have protection circuits?


Nothing bogus about this. You need to do your homework about 18650 liion cells. You DIDNT BUY PROTECTED CELLS. I have 16 Panasonic cells ive bought brand new over the last couple months, NOT A SINGLE ONE IS PROTECTED. ALL MADE IN JAPAN. But I have battery cases that have protection circuits built it. As most here do.

For protected batteries, I bought keeppower 3400mah which are Panasonics with an extra part and little button style connector on top.


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## 47mph (Nov 3, 2014)

-Archie- said:


> No. Not even single one....


Then this seller's description must be bogus. He's just charging more for Panasonic's w a stripe on the side:

Brand New "2" Panasonic 18650 NCR18650A 3 7V 3100mAh Battery Protected w PCB | eBay


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Those r protected, not bogus. But if its not a US seller be careful of counterfit. Ive seen them before though. Not assembled by Panasonic iirc, they are contracted out to have the pcbs added but maintain Panasonic labeling. But for what u do u dont need Panasonics, Sanyo or otherwise will work too. Like u can get keeppower Sanyo 2600mah cell for $17 a pair on amazon.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

So many posts and we still don't know actual voltages of the cells. 47, you should measure it with multimeter (DMM). Then we can talk. Also you didn't answer on question about switch position on your charger.


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## 47mph (Nov 3, 2014)

To me the Switch position question was kinda like asking do you have it plugged in?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Not really if the charger has 2 different settings, wrong setting you can cause all kinds of problems. Legitimate question especially when this is obviously your first attempt at dealing with 18650 cells and did so without proper research.


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## ledoman (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes, and we still don't know atwhat position it is and what are actual voltages of the cells. So 47, if you want to help you, please provide those info. We don't know what you think or do, we only know what you wrote.


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