# Smoke & Dart are back...



## iamkeith (Feb 5, 2010)

Oh yeah...

S O M A f e e d: Skinwall Tires


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## memi (Nov 14, 2011)

I still have the original one from90s. I put new ones on my 26, rigid. The best tires ever made!


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

memi said:


> I still have the original one from90s. I put new ones on my 26, rigid. The best tires ever made!


I guess you have not ridden any modern tires,


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

Fred Smedley said:


> I guess you have not ridden any modern tires,


You mean Smokes aren't modern?:eekster:










They look different.


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## datasurfer (Nov 24, 2006)

Some folks think the Dart is a bit squirrelly. I, however, never had any issues and am glad they are back...


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

nice! Although the smoke/dart have been back for a while, getting them has been difficult and its nice to see the skinwalls...


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

That's pretty cool of them to do.


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## memi (Nov 14, 2011)

Oh, I do. I also have Panaracer Rampage on my 29er, and Kenda small block 8. I used before other tires.
I just enjoyed using the dart and smoke.


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## tductape (Mar 31, 2008)

I always liked Smokes front and rear. Never got into that newfangled Dart.


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

Aemmer said:


> I always liked Smokes front and rear. Never got into that newfangled Dart.


A Smoke in front with a faster rolling tire in the back used to be the preferred set up here in the Mid-West back in the early 90's too.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

yeah, never got on with the dart... smoke up front, smoke light out back ftw. Currently running smoke classics front and rear on one bike actually for a year now, still great tyres


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## Groundoggy (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm kinda bummed they look so much like the originals. Vintage rubber is rare and sometimes brings a nice price (or is an unmentioned bonus). This muddies the waters and can lower price and demand of the originals.

The Dart seemed a bit much for a front tire. Smoke in the back and Porc in the front for me.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

I'll run double Smokes in a pinch. Fresh skin walls, great!


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Groundoggy said:


> I'm kinda bummed they look so much like the originals. Vintage rubber is rare and sometimes brings a nice price (or is an unmentioned bonus). This muddies the waters and can lower price and demand of the originals.


Another case in point: Turbos. Though the perforated ones still do well since they weren't reissued. Old leather is better than new vinyl anyway....even if the fixed gear crowd doesn't care.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Groundoggy said:


> I'm kinda bummed they look so much like the originals. Vintage rubber is rare and sometimes brings a nice price (or is an unmentioned bonus). This muddies the waters and can lower price and demand of the originals.


The new rubber is really nice compared to a lot of dried out old tires. I recently switch a bike that original front a rear Smokes on it, to a Smoke/Dart combo (black walls - which have been available for a long time) and the new tires were many many many times more supple over bumps. Old tires are nice for looks, but unless they've been stored appropriately don't work all that great.


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

Aemmer said:


> I always liked Smokes front and rear. Never got into that newfangled Dart.


Yep, me too.

My all time favorite combo was Smoke Lite Comps front and rear.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

My LBS said they'd be $55 a pop.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

are they kevlar? as mine are only steel sadly.
Just got a bunch of the ritcheys from first flight sent over, but will ahve to get these as well...


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

yo-Nate-y said:


> My LBS said they'd be $55 a pop.


You did not catch Performance when they were blowing them out for $15.00 each around a year and a half ago? I bought two sets , sadly the 2.1's are pretty low volume for running rigid so they are just sitting.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

yo-Nate-y said:


> Another case in point: Turbos. Though the perforated ones still do well since they weren't reissued. Old leather is better than new vinyl anyway....even if the fixed gear crowd doesn't care.


The new re-released Turbos look a little odd and are easily distinguishable from the originals IMO.


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Agreed, but they sucked up the market nonetheless. That, and the decline of fixed gear fever.


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## Groundoggy (Nov 27, 2011)

Sort of relieved I'm not the only one seeing a downside but they do look awesome and I would agree with the 'new rubber' point.

$55 a pop isn't too bad and after further review they are a unique design so ID shouldn't be a huge issue. In a year Performance may be clearing them out at $20 a pop just to clear shelf space unless they are a big seller. Still worth buying to support the effort if you want to see some treads reissued in the future.


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## chefmiguel (Dec 22, 2007)

Great classic design, good to know its available as the ones on my Goat made an interesting cracking noise when I pumped them up last time. Never gave the Dart much of a chance as I was happy with a Smoke front and rear BITD.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

when they were king of trails, smokes looked massive to me. Now they are skinny compared to 2.3 tires that are the norm.


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## J_Westy (Jan 7, 2009)

I tried the Dart BITD, but it seemed like it wanted to wash out in the loose stuff, so back to the Smokes on both ends.

Looking forward to getting some reissues!


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## DoubleCentury (Nov 12, 2005)

A respected Bay Area tire designer had this to say about the 700c Smoke,

"As for the Smoke tread design, I never did like it, but it was the first big 700C tire of the time. It has no knobs in the critical transition zone between upright and full lean and the size and placement of the knobs result in a stiff, unresponsive casing which produces a harsh ride...for rider and bike!"


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

DoubleCentury said:


> A respected Bay Area tire designer had this to say about the 700c Smoke,
> 
> "As for the Smoke tread design, I never did like it, but it was the first big 700C tire of the time. It has no knobs in the critical transition zone between upright and full lean and the size and placement of the knobs result in a stiff, unresponsive casing which produces a harsh ride...for rider and bike!"


I can definitely see that description being accurate for a Smoke on the front. It's a square profile which IMO makes a good rear tire, but not a good front. I like square profile tires for the rear as I like to stand on climbs and the more tread that's on the ground the better the tire performs. More rounded profiles tend to spin on loose terrain when out of the saddle.

As far as Darts go, I've noticed a huge variation in how well they work depending on the bike that they're on - likely a result of different front/rear weight distributions. On some bikes the Darts work really well for me. On others they tend to wash out.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

datasurfer said:


> Some folks think the Dart is a bit squirrelly. I, however, never had any issues and am glad they are back...


I love the Dart SC 2.2. Never cared for the Dart HC 2.1 or the later Hardcore versions. It does depend on riding style, though. Several of us would use nothing else. One of our buddies hated the Dart riding the same trails and conditions.

When I asked Panaracer about the reissue of the 2.1 rather than the 2.2 it was because they still have the molds. The SC 2.2 molds were gone.


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## FurryCrew (Nov 21, 2012)

Smoke out back....White Onza Porcs up front!
Only was to go in the early 90s


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## urmb (Oct 4, 2005)

Now if someone would bring back the Farmer John, Farmer John Cousin and Ritchey Force. Imagine a 2.25 and 2.5 Farmer John!

urmb


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

3 words:

Original Ground Controls

Best all around tire, IMO.


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## CCMDoc (Jan 21, 2010)

KDXdog said:


> 3 words:
> 
> Original Ground Controls
> 
> Best all around tire, IMO.


I didn't think so back then but I'm beginning to believe you might be correct.

Still, my favorites then were the Smoke Comp Lites ... for the wet, muddy North East


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

FurryCrew said:


> Smoke out back....White Onza Porcs up front!
> Only was to go in the early 90s


I run that combo now!



KDXdog said:


> 3 words:
> 
> Original Ground Controls
> 
> Best all around tire, IMO.


Yep. Or GC/S front, GCE/S out back. nice fresh 2.1 or 2.2 version of that in tan wall kevlar....oh baby!


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2013)

Yep. Or GC/S front, GCE/S out back. nice fresh 2.1 or 2.2 version of that in tan wall kevlar....oh baby![/QUOTE]

Any feedback on Specialized Pro Control/S and Specialized Shockmaster/S?


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

shawnw said:


> Any feedback on Specialized Shockmaster/S?


I have one in my basement that was on a bike briefly. It's a pretty horrible tire (on sandy or hardpack conditions).


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

shawnw said:


> Yep. Or GC/S front, GCE/S out back. nice fresh 2.1 or 2.2 version of that in tan wall kevlar....oh baby!


Any feedback on Specialized Pro Control/S and Specialized Shockmaster/S?[/QUOTE]

Awful tires. Well, Pro Control out back is ok, Shockmaster up front is not good. Team Master/Team Control are even worse IMO. YMMV.


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## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

Rumpfy said:


> Shockmaster up front is not good.


Awful, awful tire. Especially in Umma Gumma.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Any feedback on Specialized Pro Control/S and Specialized Shockmaster/S?





Rumpfy said:


> Awful tires. Well, Pro Control out back is ok, Shockmaster up front is not good. Team Master/Team Control are even worse IMO. YMMV.


I liked the Team Control (the spikey one?) on the rear, but on the front it had a weird, vague feel I thought.

Shock Master just looks all wrong. Surprised that one got the green light from the big S just based on the looks of it. :\


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

ameybrook said:


> Awful, awful tire. Especially in Umma Gumma.


Like this one?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I liked the Team Control (the spikey one?) on the rear, but on the front it had a weird, vague feel I thought.
> 
> Shock Master just looks all wrong. Surprised that one got the green light from the big S just based on the looks of it. :\


Ya, the spikey one run up front was sketchy. Never tried it out back.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2013)

This thread is getting derailed I know, but thanks for the input. I just need to decide what NOS combo I should bust out for my new vintage ride.


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## Buddysnack (Jan 30, 2013)

What about the Ground Control 2.5 Extremes? They were almost like riding a 29er.


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## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

The big More Extreme out back rocked.


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## Buddysnack (Jan 30, 2013)

jeff said:


> The big More Extreme out back rocked.


Does anyone have any in their hoardpile...I mean collection? How about a photo?


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2013)

There's one member here that rides them exclusively, maybe he will pipe up.


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## banjo_mole (Feb 21, 2013)

I saw a boxed set of these NIB on eBay a few nights ago listed at $275. That's crazy.

I'm really pleased to see these tires re-issued, as over the last few nights I found myself incredibly frustrated by the general lack of 26" skinwall mountain tires.


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## banjo_mole (Feb 21, 2013)

While we're at it, is Smoke/rear, Dart/front considered an acceptable combo to run? Is that how it's "supposed" to be run? I was just being born about the time these tires were all over the market, but I'd like to run them on the '93 Trek I'm building up. I'll show y'all once I can post threads/pictures.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

yes dart is the front, the smoke is front or rear, personally I prefer the smoke front and rear, thats what I have been running for a while now. (well technically I'm running some hutchison things as I tried these tubeless things, but my other wheels as soon as other bike is up and running are smokes.


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## davez26 (Dec 2, 2004)

banjo_mole said:


> I was just being born about the time these tires were all over the market, but I'd like to run them on the '93 Trek I'm building up. I'll show y'all once I can post threads/pictures.


Yep, smoke/dart rear/front. I still run them on the 94 Trek 930, the Fuel 70 and whatever I get next. Tough tires.
Sorry u missed the 80's and 90's- good times.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Bokchoicowboy (Aug 7, 2007)

Tried the Smoke and Dart combo back in the day, did not like them all that much. When the WTB Velociraptors came out they looked a bit like a similar design idea but executed correctly, so I got those and continued riding them for a long, long time.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Used to love a Smoke in the back and a Dart in the front...great tires...but nowhere close to the modern designs I am afraid to say. Don't think I ever ran a Smoke in the front


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

Thats why you don't think they're the best!

Todays post










now have to get hold of some skinwalls...


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