# "America Needs More E-bikes" thoughts on this?



## Engineer90 (Apr 10, 2015)

https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mtb-columns/opinion-america-needs-ebikes/

So I came across this Single Tracks opinion piece, I must say I agree with all of the points; specially the health and environmental points since I am an environmentalist. The data presented and facts do well for his article.

For commuting, a hybrid/road/gravel e-bike (or even an electric scooter) makes a hell of a lot of sense. Even for just getting around town doing a few errands. I would use an e-bike myself but my commute is 22 miles each way. And plus, I live in NJ, I would probably get ran over by a dump truck (since they drive like maniacs here) or an old grandma, and I work in a heavily industrialized area 

For MTB applications though, I fully disagree on having an e-bike (as most of us do on these forums).

Anyways, what are your thoughts on this opinion piece?


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm not sure if there's an argument from anyone here, since this applies to road or other legal riding of a motorized vehicle. 

I don't think anyone cares if someone chooses an ebike, moped or otherwise for commuting.

You get my full support from an environmental standpoint.


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## MozFat (Dec 16, 2016)

IMHO any 2 wheeler you have to pedal is good by me as long as its legal. If it gets people out in the woods, why not, as long as they aren't doing harm to others. If you don't want, need or can't afford the assistance doesn't make it bad for others


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

kpdemello said:


> MTB riders went through this process and worked long and hard to secure access. MTB advocacy groups still work on maintaining access, building trails, and supporting state/national parks. You want your e-machine to have access? Go through the process. Do the studies. Make your case to the land managers. Posting a few youtube videos on an MTB forum isn't going to make a difference.


.....


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I think ebikes are a great alternative for short road commutes. But for multi use trails, no.


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## Lawson Raider (Jul 24, 2006)




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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

^ Oh, a new "beat a dead horse" photo. It's about time, all those other ones were like beating a dead horse.


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## Lawson Raider (Jul 24, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> ^ Oh, a new "beat a dead horse" photo. It's about time, all those other ones were like beating a dead horse.


We have trends on mountain bike sites....I remember years ago there was a few threads about Walmart vs real bikes - those were very entertaining. Then the wheel size debate between 26 and 29 - of course now 27.5 and the Plus variants. E-bikes are the new craze - threads opening up about ebikes where 100 already exist with folks defending, attacking, don't care, etc about them.

My official stance on ebikes - I can see both sides of the issue. There are valid points on both sides - if you come to this debate with an open mind, you can see both sides have valid points.

There are enough folks who love ebikes to create a market for them, good or bad. Manufacturers, like all businesses, cater to what makes them money, again good or bad. I am 46 and trying my best to stay off an ebike and trying to keep all my two wheeled activities all human powered - but in 10 years will I be able to do that at 56? I pray so but there are no guarantees. If my body acts up where I cannot pedal all the time without significant pain and an ebike allows me to enjoy what I love then I will want an ebike - I want to be able to enjoy the outdoors as long as I can.

If I am still good to go at 56, I will still be 100% human powered. As George Jones said, "I am not ready for that rocking chair".

But I also expect manufacturers to create ebikes that cannot be used to tear up trails -- ie: high torque and high speed. I support the pedal assist e-bike where it just gives a small assist to someone already pedalling the bike - no throttle where you can basically have an electric motorbike.

There is middle ground.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Ebikes are not really green. Human powered bikes are are as green as you can get while ebikes, well the below logo pretty much sums it up.
Oh and don't forget about what happens to those batteries after they have exceeded their life span.


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## Engineer90 (Apr 10, 2015)

Lawson Raider said:


> I am 46 and trying my best to stay off an ebike and trying to keep all my two wheeled activities all human powered - but in 10 years will I be able to do that at 56?


Try to keep fit and healthy, don't be seduced by the e-bike! :nono:


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## Engineer90 (Apr 10, 2015)

singletrackmack said:


> Ebikes are not really green. Human powered bikes are are as green as you can get while ebikes, well the below logo pretty much sums it up.
> Oh and don't forget about what happens to those batteries after they have exceeded their life span.
> 
> View attachment 1136550


This is true, coal power is what would power those bikes anyway.


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## MozFat (Dec 16, 2016)

im already over 50 and have no desire to ride an ebike (yet) , but unless its a real hazard I would like the option in the future, ala pedal assist


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

There's little or no argument against ebikes for commuting. Go for it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Unless more tax dollars are devoted towards infrastructure I don't think e-bikes will make any difference environmentally, they are still as dangerous to ride on the road as bicycles and that is one of the biggest reasons people don't commute IMO. There will be the curiosity factor but I don't believe they will help to reduce the number of cars on the road. 

The best way to get more people to commute would be to design cities that prioritize pedestrian and cycling traffic, and also to live closer to where you work and shop but I sort of doubt that's going to happen any time soon.

I don't believe that trying to solve the problems created by motorized traffic by adding more motors is the answer.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Electric self driving cars (with really nice collision avoidance systems to keep from running over cyclists) will be here before e-bikes have much of a chance. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

-Walt


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

It is debateable if the electric cars we have now do more environmental damage than a fuel efficient small car. And we have to talk about revenue that won't be generated.
Years ago Washington State had a bill proposal allowing the state to put transponders on electric vehicles so that at the end of the year they could send their operators a tax bill so they could contribute their share of the road tax that they weren't getting from the fuel sales.
But when talking about e-bikes for commuting, think of the road rage if they ever became popular. A jacked up, diesel, coal roller, getting held up in traffic for 30 seconds while a e-bike crossed the intersection, his world would almost end right there.
If we had proper infrastructure that would help but we cannot have a second grader pedalling to school on the same bike path as a late to work, hungover, factory worker on a high powered e-bike.
And if you had a long commute would your boss let you plug it in? Does your boss buy you gas now?
I hate to say it but in North America we are not bike friendly, we are car friendly. It would be a better place if cycling was part of our culture but it isn't.


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## knutso (Oct 8, 2008)

On average, a kwh generates 1/13th the co2 emissions of a gallon of gas. 

At 20mph an ebike gets about 60 miles per kwh.

I have zero against ebikes. Even on the trails, I think suspension limits speed, and speed causes and amplifies accidents. The ebikers I have seen on the trails are middle aged goofs, not near the threat that the idiots shuttling long travel bikes are.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

I tried my neighbors e-bike (commuter style) last night. It way more power assisted then I ever imagined. Like just nudging the pedal from a standtill and it takes off (note - make sure not to leave it turned on when the kids are playing with the pedals).

I easily got it up to 43km/h. While pulling a chariot that could carry two kids. 

Zero interest in trying one on durt.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

Engineer90 said:


> This is true, coal power is what would power those bikes anyway.


Speak for yourself, mine is recharged from my home PV system. Sometimes my home micro hydro or wind system, actually all three but I was trying to keep it simple.

How about coming up with a new graphic Engineer90? An ebike towing a coal fired power plant is not the reality of how it all works for me and CAN work for a lot of others.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Speak for yourself, mine is recharged from my home PV system. Sometimes my home micro hydro or wind system, actually all three but I was trying to keep it simple.
> 
> How about coming up with a new graphic Engineer90? An ebike towing a coal fired power plant is not the reality of how it all works for me and CAN work for a lot of others.


It's the reality of how it works for 99.9% of ebikes, but good for you. Also,pics or it didn't happen.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Speak for yourself, mine is recharged from my home PV system. Sometimes my home micro hydro or wind system, actually all three but I was trying to keep it simple.
> 
> How about coming up with a new graphic Engineer90? An ebike towing a coal fired power plant is not the reality of how it all works for me and CAN work for a lot of others.


Your example of one wins me over.


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## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

Just returned from a morning 43 miler on my Soma B-Side Belt Drive eMTB from Knott's Berry farm to the Queen Mary and back, with a couple side tracks to Seal Beach pier and a switchback climb up to Yoga On The Bluff (lol).

Got home, showered and poured myself a half and half apple and cranberry juice and I feel great! The electric assist cut through the nasty head winds out there today, but the sunny weather was wonderful.

The electrified B-Side hardtail is great for commuting, beach boardwalks, bike trails, gravel grinding and light MTB'g, but the Santa Cruz Hightower has spoiled me when it comes to serious off-road MTB rides. Can't wait until E-rides like the Focus Jam 2 arrive in the USA with true MTB geometry and the weight starts coming down on the eMTB's.

This Old Fart Of The Mountain is going 100% EEEeee...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Whiptastic said:


> Just returned from a morning 43 miler on my Soma B-Side Belt Drive eMTB from Knott's Berry farm to the Queen Mary and back, with a couple side tracks to Seal Beach pier and a switchback climb up to Yoga On The Bluff (lol).
> 
> Got home, showered and poured myself a half and half apple and cranberry juice and I feel great! The electric assist cut through the nasty head winds out there today, but the sunny weather was wonderful.
> 
> ...


Wow! You must be exhausted.....


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Whiptastic said:


> Just returned from a morning 43 miler on my Soma B-Side Belt Drive eMTB from Knott's Berry farm to the Queen Mary and back, with a couple side tracks to Seal Beach pier and a switchback climb up to Yoga On The Bluff (lol).
> 
> Got home, showered and poured myself a half and half apple and cranberry juice and I feel great! The electric assist cut through the nasty head winds out there today, but the sunny weather was wonderful.
> 
> ...


Too bad Orange County Parks doesn't allow them. They still view them as motorized vehicles.
The rangers were allowed to demo them out in their parks....and decided they don't want them there.


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## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> Wow! You must be exhausted.....


Lol... Not nearly as exhausted as you must be from typing.


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## Whiptastic (Mar 14, 2016)

mtnbikej said:


> Too bad Orange County Parks doesn't allow them. They still view them as motorized vehicles.
> The rangers were allowed to demo them out in their parks....and decided they don't want them there.


You do know that all OC parks have 10mph speed limits don't you?

When did they do and decide that? Show me the legal ordinance stating such and not the lame "No Motor Vehicle" stuff, of which E-bikes are legally not anymore. No signs that I've seen either.

Oh and the head guy over there (RP) hasn't had his people enforcing what you say is fact. Sorry guy.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

Whiptastic said:


> You do know that all OC parks have 10mph speed limits don't you?
> 
> When did they do and decide that? Show me the legal ordinance stating such and not the lame "No Motor Vehicle" stuff, of which E-bikes are legally not anymore. No signs that I've seen either.
> 
> Oh and the head guy over there (RP) hasn't had his people enforcing what you say is fact. Sorry guy.


OC Parks sees them as "motor vehicles".....they won't be changing the signs.

Try asking the rangers at the parks, they will tell you they are not allowed. I was standing next to one recently when he told a couple on Levo's that OCParks wasn't allowing them. He suggested that perhaps they check with the state parks.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Clickbait title?

I have no problem if people want to ride a moped to work. lol


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

singletrackmack said:


> It's the reality of how it works for 99.9% of ebikes, but good for you. Also,pics or it didn't happen.


 Oh it's happening, and charging an ebike from PV is so simple and cheap (with the current lower cost of solar) that anyone who can afford an ebike really has no excuse not to do it. Easily less then $1000.00. If only to shut down naysayers with coal pollution allusions. My favorite renewable energy ebike story is when I realized that the fatbike I was riding up to the ski area above my place to snowboard, was eventually being recharged in part by the same snow, melted into water, and flowing through my hydro's turbine. That water is coming down the mountain no matter what, charging my bike's battery on it's way to the valley is a LONG way from towing a miniature coal fired power plant behind! Running my home and shop's radiant floor heat system via electric boilers, a my 200 amp MIG welder and all shop tools, while still generating an excess is much more impressive then charging a little battery on a bike, that's child's play.

I can't take the time to post pictures, I have them, but I'm not in the mood or have the time to learn what Vbulletin tags are, and how to use them. Going riding instead, then working in the shop welding up some solar mounts a customer is coming to get tomorrow.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

The article neglects to mention that people (like the author) migrating to rural and suburban areas are one of the big reasons for the problems he purports e-bikes could help solve. The desire to live in the country or outlying suburbia generally necessitates long commutes to work and shopping which could be avoided by choosing to live within easy walking or pedaling distance to them. Unless you're a farmer or a miner living in the country is usually a lifestyle choice and generally a greater burden on resources. 

The author admits there are alternatives available that are much cheaper and faster which would accomplish the same environmental goals, but they don't have pedals.

I predict that the percentage of folks who would ride an electric bike for 40 mile round trip commutes and grocery runs through cold, rain, snow etc. would be approximately the same as it is now for bicycles, which is essentially zero. I think recreational use of them will rise significantly compared to bicycles though.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Whiptastic said:


> Just returned from a morning 43 miler on my Soma B-Side Belt Drive eMTB from Knott's Berry farm to the Queen Mary and back, with a couple side tracks to Seal Beach pier and a switchback climb up to Yoga On The Bluff (lol).
> 
> Got home, showered and poured myself a half and half apple and cranberry juice and I feel great! The electric assist cut through the nasty head winds out there today, but the sunny weather was wonderful.
> 
> ...


 Love reading stuff like this a e bike is the best thing for exploring new cites and parks 40 mi is a good long ride some times I will carry my charger and find a nice brew pub take a long lunch as my battery rechargers .


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah, if you're in a hurry and/or concerned about inclement weather or being perceived as a hippy... a 30% faster/90% easier bicycle is not going to cut it. 

I mean, I don't care about those things, and I have a cargo bike that is slow as heck when it's loaded up, and I live at a ski resort (so, hills)... and I'm still too lazy to bother putting an electric kit on it. I'm just not in enough of a hurry to care. People blow by me on neighborhood streets at double the speed limit in their Porsche Cayennes - and I'm sure they're laughing the whole time. Those people are never, ever going to ride a bike for anything but recreation.

-Walt


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Oh it's happening, and charging an ebike from PV is so simple and cheap (with the current lower cost of solar) that anyone who can afford an ebike really has no excuse not to do it.
> .


Ya, so easy for those living in apartments or in a building or in the city to just throw up some solar panels right? You know, the places where the vast majority of ebikes will be used and charged.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

singletrackmack said:


> Ya, so easy for those living in apartments or in a building or in the city to just throw up some solar panels right? You know, the places where the vast majority of ebikes will be used and charged.


 Unlike you, I have no idea of the general socio-economic class that users of these very expensive toys come from. I am probably hanging with the wrong crowd, and in the wrong state, but out of the 6 e mtbrs I personally know, none live in rented housing or apartments, or in our parents basement for that matter. Rather, they are all homeowners. Be that as it may, if you're attempting to make some kind of point that the widespread use of ebikes will result in some kind of problem with the electrical grid, you better have a lot of zeros handy, because the percent of increase in the nations power consumption would be a decimal point, followed by many, many zeros. Too small to begin to quantify. Still, no need for it, as I've already pointed out. For the apartment dweller, look around....still have incandescent light bulbs? Replace them with LED's and you've more then offset your ebike's consumption. Even in my own efficient house, I could still shave enough usage off to run my ebike, except as I have an excess anyway I don't sweat it. Hey, it's good to know you're so concerned about, I guess, global warming.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Bigwheel started a thread here http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/tedx-e-bikes-1023436.html a while back that got just about zero interest. It was a link to an e-bike purveyor that then linked to a blog with change-in-your-electric-bike-transportation-future

The dude in the video has huge pro-e-bike bias but some of his concepts are worth discussing relative to this thread.

Long story short there's a lot of diesel (or coal) in the food we eat and because human metabloism is only 25% efficient vs. electrical system efficiency of 80% at some point an e-bike uses less diesel (or coal) than does a regular bicycle being pedaled. Walking to get around is horribly "dirty".

Again, I sense the guy is tweaking his numbers too far in the e-bike direction but his premise is correct.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Moe Ped said:


> Again, I sense the guy is tweaking his numbers too far in the e-bike direction but his premise is correct.


Tweaking. I see 2 major flaws in his theory.

Everybody eats, and someone who drives a Cadillac to work and sits behind a desk all day is likely to consume as many or more calories than another person who rides a bike 50 miles and has an active job.

I don't see any numbers that account for the factories that build the machines and batteries, the mines and refineries that power them, or the disposal of toxic waste and the significant environmental costs for all of it. Walking requires none of this and bicycles require a much smaller percentage compared to an electric vehicle.

I call bullhonky, science can only dream of achieving the overall efficiency of biological life and only an engineer will tell you different.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Ya, pretty much worst and most hilarious argument for ebikes yet. His premise is completely wrong as JB pointed out and not even close to reality. 

Nice try.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

mtnbikej said:


> OC Parks sees them as "motor vehicles".....they won't be changing the signs.


They will change the signs when someone fights a ticket and wins.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

So we all had to learn this in grade school. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. If you want to do something good for the environment don't buy a ebike, just ride the bike you have.
This is a example of reduce(not buying), reuse(use what you already have), recycle, well you get the point.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

So now, let me see if I have this straight, we ebikers will be responsible for not only shutting down trail access and the sport of mountain biking, but also be the final nail in the coffin as a contributor to global warming and the collapse of civilization as we know it?? You guys are over reaching just a bit, (but it is great fun seeing the lengths you go to to illustrate your distaste for ebikes) as was that guy saying they were saviors. I'm going riding later today again, not to save the planet, or help destroy it, but because it doesn't make any difference, it's fun as hell, and I can. Thanks for the words of wisdom rlee, on how to conduct my life.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Two sides of the same coin; if an e-bike takes the place of a car it's most likely a good thing for the planet. If an e-bike takes the place of a regular bike it's most likely a bad thing for the planet.

There are exceptions of course.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

portnuefpeddler said:


> So now, let me see if I have this straight, we ebikers will be responsible for not only shutting down trail access and the sport of mountain biking, but also be the final nail in the coffin as a contributor to global warming and the collapse of civilization as we know it??


Electric bikes will destroy the world with their greenhouse gasses? Crazy! Where did you hear that?


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## Slynger (Jun 25, 2007)

I am thinking about converting my Mtb to E-bike. Just enough to make the climbs easier. I am over 60 years old and have been riding MTBs for almost 20 years. I can't stop my physical slow down. I kind of understand the objection to e-bikes on pristine single track trails. But not sure it is rational if the bikes power is limited. There is a park near my house with rolling bike trails that are very lightly used, particularly on week days when I ride (the benefits of being retired). No one will notice or care. 

One of my favorite rides is Tiger Mtn Iverson RR trail (near Seattle) which involves a 1.5 mile serious grunt up a gravel road (no one could object to an e-bike since it is open to motor vehicles). But then it's a fun 7 mile mostly downhill single track ride down. I would only use the e-power for the climb so not sure why anyone would object (except maybe for religious reasons).


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

As you alluded, the Tiger mountain singletrack trails are not open to motorized vehicles, of which, an ebike is one. Don't do it. So much more I'd like to say but I'll try to keep it civil.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Electric bikes will destroy the world with their greenhouse gasses? Crazy! Where did you hear that?


I'm lost on the sarcasm in this particular reply string; but in the real world there are legitimate concerns about the environmental footprint of the storage batteries used in electric vehicles. The manufacture of said batteries creates quite a sizable carbon debt (CO2 emissions) that takes a rather long time to offset through the use of electric vehicles. Plus viable end-of-use recycling for LiPo batteries (in particular) hasn't been sorted out.

Over-all electric vehicles could help "save the planet" but not as much as it first would seem.

YMMV.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Slynger said:


> I am thinking about converting my Mtb to E-bike. Just enough to make the climbs easier. I am over 60 years old and have been riding MTBs for almost 20 years. I can't stop my physical slow down. I kind of understand the objection to e-bikes on pristine single track trails. But not sure it is rational if the bikes power is limited. There is a park near my house with rolling bike trails that are very lightly used, particularly on week days when I ride (the benefits of being retired). No one will notice or care.
> 
> One of my favorite rides is Tiger Mtn Iverson RR trail (near Seattle) which involves a 1.5 mile serious grunt up a gravel road (no one could object to an e-bike since it is open to motor vehicles). But then it's a fun 7 mile mostly downhill single track ride down. I would only use the e-power for the climb so not sure why anyone would object (except maybe for religious reasons).


There are already dozens of threads discussing access issues, why not add your 2 cents to one of those? This one is actually different because it questions whether or not electric bikes could help solve environmental problems via commuting and I think it would be more interesting to keep it that way rather then have it turn into yet another 12 page mudfest about access rights.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Moe Ped said:


> I'm lost on the sarcasm in this particular reply string; but in the real world there are legitimate concerns about the environmental footprint of the storage batteries used in electric vehicles.


I guess I was just saying that I doubt anyone here thinks electric bikes are particularly bad for the planet in the grand scheme of things, definitely not if replacing a car.

I agree with you about the batteries and other environmental hazards 100% and mentioned as much in a previous post. Like you I think they could potentially be a good thing for the environment but I doubt they will help anytime soon, more economical alternatives have been available for a long time now and people haven't been clamoring to sell their cars and buy an electric scooter. It's probably no secret by now that I think the pedals on e-bikes are kind of a ruse.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

It could be argued that they've been good for the planet in Asia since they have often replaced cheap, excessively polluting 2 stroke scooters and mopeds, on the other hand, since they only cost a couple of hundred bucks, they have also replaced bicycles which then adds back the negatives of a higher carbon footprint and the battery issue.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

I often park my crane while driving through town back from a job, and get the little 20" e bike out to run errands that are off my main route. The crane gets 5 mpg on the highway, probably 2 or 3 in town, so I guess I'm doing better on the ebike. Point being, obviously a LOT better on the bike, even better on a bike, but even if i was driving the crane around all the time as my errand runner, it ain't enough difference to matter in the big scheme of things. Look up what the total world daily consumption of oil is, I heard it once, and it's pretty amazing. The reason I don't use the crane more for errands is personal savings at the fuel pump, if that helps out the polar bears, great. I have no argument with anyone saying a bike is "better for the planet" then an ebike. NO bike of any kind would be even better of course! 

Speaking of batteries! I just ordered a 16" chain saw, that uses the same 60 volt battery my new e lawn mower uses. It will be put to immediate use cutting in my own personal bike trail on my stretch of property that runs for 1/4 mile (lands cheap here, I'm not wealthy, trust me) along a creek though a Aspen grove. IF that is.....it's legal for me to ride there, what say you Walt? Just kidding. Anyway, after this I can say "I am a trail builder and maintainer." NO bikes will be allowed BTW, only fat ebikes. I need to have some signs made up.

JBWELD: not sure what you mean: "pedals are a ruse," mine work the same yours do, and are used all the time, to help motivate the bike. Only when on super steep and super rocky trails that run nearby my home (even hardcore dirt bikers know the area as being very challenging and hard on the equipment, we're talking cantaloupe and larger sized rocks and plenty of them) do I EVER use throttle only, and that's because I'm leaning forward so far to keep the front end down while picking my way through at 2 or 3 mph. NO bikes are ever seen here, just a few atv's and motorcycles. I can't imagine a mtbr wanting to ride it, and have not, ever. The fat ebike is made for this, the torque I have is delivered so smoothly it very rarely spits a rock out. What is surprising is after riding a few miles like this, NOT PEDALING (there, I said it) it's still a fair amount of workout trust me. Upper body, granted, but still fun (more fun then the last time I rode a dirt bike on the same trail, the low end torque, the low pressure fatties, combined with the silence makes it so) and still a workout and great for balance. This same bike, when ridden on bike trails around here, is always pedaled and never faster then anyone else. Pretty simple, I ride it like a bike, except for where there are no other bikes. I keep waiting for reports of out of control ebike hooligans causing trail shut downs, but so far they seem to be largely ridden by responsible old farts (preferred term, never "elderly") with a long history of trail riding 2 wheelers of all kinds. I proposed, tongue in cheek, some time ago a age related permit or whatever for ebikes, 67 and above (in a couple weeks I'll lobby for a 68 and above cutoff). IF any of them cause problems, I'd be surprised, other then dropping dead on a ride, but I can't imagine any causing trail loss. I ride an ebike not because I can't ride a bike, I ride them because they are more fun.


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## rlee (Aug 22, 2015)

portnuepeddl... I see your point. I don't think anyone thinks that they are not fun. If I could buy one that would blow roost for a couple hours I would have one also, but I wouldn't ride my local MTB trails with it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

portnuefpeddler said:


> IF any of them cause problems, I'd be surprised, other then dropping dead on a ride, but I can't imagine any causing trail loss.


Again, why trail access? Not what this thread is about.

I think we can all agree that an electric bike is a more efficient commuter than a crane, but less efficient at lifting heavy objects high into the air.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

portnuefpeddler said:


> I ride them because they are more fun.


That settles it.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

My wife was in no sense of the word a mountain biker. However, since I bought her a Turbo Levo she has become the wonder woman mountain biker extraordinaire. The ebike has saved our marriage. She doesn't have to train like an athlete to get out and enjoy the mountains. When we are on the asphalt I ride my road bike. She has pulled me up some hills. We get some weird looks from some rodies but as long as we are having fun it's all good.


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## elee325 (Sep 27, 2006)

Engineer90 said:


> https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mtb-columns/opinion-america-needs-ebikes/
> 
> So I came across this Single Tracks opinion piece, I must say I agree with all of the points; specially the health and environmental points since I am an environmentalist. The data presented and facts do well for his article.
> 
> ...


I like to give an ebike a try but my only fear is what to do with my other three expensive bikes. The ebike will spoil me and the money invested on other bikes will be wasted. Does anybody have experience of going back and forth from ebikes to traditional bikes?


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

elee325 said:


> I like to give an ebike a try but my only fear is what to do with my other three expensive bikes. The ebike will spoil me and the money invested on other bikes will be wasted. Does anybody have experience of going back and forth from ebikes to traditional bikes?


All depends on what you get it for. I have an e cargo bike that has a definite purpose. That purpose doesn't cross over with any of my other actual bikes.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Giant Warp said:


> My wife was in no sense of the word a mountain biker. However, since I bought her a Turbo Levo she has become the wonder woman mountain biker extraordinaire. The ebike has saved our marriage. She doesn't have to train like an athlete to get out and enjoy the mountains. When we are on the asphalt I ride my road bike. She has pulled me up some hills. We get some weird looks from some rodies but as long as we are having fun it's all good.


Have your car(s) been logging less miles since you got the e-bike? Is it used for shopping or commuting?


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

In regards to the OP...

I was at a bike race over the weekend and overheard a local shop employee/manager telling another person that their sales are down on a variety of brands, and that the companies are pushing e-bikes in an effort to make up for those losses.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I honestly can't see how ebikes are going to save the bike industry. The biggest hurdle is cost. Someone who can look past the cost is most likely a cyclist who sees the value in expensive bikes and who no longer wishes to actually be a cyclist. Or, they have a lot of disposable income to spend on their ebike and have to choose between an it and a motorcycle. Either way, those people are few and far between. The industry needs to stop focusing effort on trying to get a piece of the mountain biking pie and stick to getting the commuter market, where it's already legal and makes sense.

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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> There are already dozens of threads discussing access issues, why not add your 2 cents to one of those? This one is actually different because it questions whether or not electric bikes could help solve environmental problems via commuting and I think it would be more interesting to keep it that way rather then have it turn into yet another 12 page mudfest about access rights.


well said, please keep trail access discussion out of this thread. No need for this to be derailed.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

My e bike has changed my life for the better we had two vans to drive I sold mine a yr ago just didn't need it now that I have my e bike I never take the van to the store any more I rather ride my e bike . I took my GF bike and converted it to a e bike she loves it now I have her leaving the van at home and riding to the store for short trips , we plan our trips around our e bikes now she likes nothing better than to ride her bike to starbucks . The next step is to be able to charge my bike when its on the back of my van while driving down the road for this I will need a pure sini wave inverter .


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

There is actually so much right about e-bikes but so much wrong regarding them.

I don't own one, never ridden one, ridden along side some at a couple demos though.

Pure, restricted pedal assist is a good thing for outdoors. Knowing what I do about "ebike conversions" I was a hater of the idea at first too when manufacturers started to pursue them. Making OEM " electric dirt bikes" truly would be a very bad thing for mountain biking. But that's not what they are.

I do understand the "pure" sense of human powered only. 

Pedal assist is actually a good thing, it helps those that want to enjoy cycling but physically can't. And it gets them off the couch.

Access argument aside, people need to unplug.

The movies "Surrogates" and "Wall-E". It's where the world is headed. Something to help curb that is great.

Ebikes would also be a huge thing for urban areas, reducing cars on the road. Not even just the environmental impacts. Getting people outside, less idiots driving around with 2000+lb battering rams.

For the environmental point, yes it helps on one point but increases electrical usage. Thankful cheaper than gas which helps a lot. Air being less irritating to breathe etc are other benefits.

America doesn't need just more bikes, it's need more bicycles in general. Needs less of the elitist BS around cycling as a sport, less screens glued to faces, more things to make us all healthier again.

I'm dealing with these battles in my own home because my family wants to be fat and lazy plastered on screens in air conditioning. I get made to feel like crap for pushing a better, less wasteful and more responsible life style. Which is why I'm sitting here on this. Trying to learn others thoughts and opinions on matters like these to see if there is a point I'm missing in my life to help push a better life.



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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Have your car(s) been logging less miles since you got the e-bike? Is it used for shopping or commuting?


I don't live within riding distance of any trail heads but the ebike has been fantastic for eliminating a shuttle car and or nasty asphalt climbs to complete loops.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Giant Warp said:


> I don't live within riding distance of any trail heads but the ebike has been fantastic for eliminating a shuttle car and or nasty asphalt climbs to complete loops.


So in your case e-bikes are increasing your carbon footprint,


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

rider95 said:


> My e bike has changed my life for the better we had two vans to drive I sold mine a yr ago just didn't need it now that I have my e bike I never take the van to the store any more I rather ride my e bike . I took my GF bike and converted it to a e bike she loves it now I have her leaving the van at home and riding to the store for short trips , we plan our trips around our e bikes now she likes nothing better than to ride her bike to starbucks . The next step is to be able to charge my bike when its on the back of my van while driving down the road for this I will need a pure sini wave inverter .


 Negatory, no need for a pure sine wave inverter. I use two different LUNA chargers on two different mod sine wave (cheap, less then $50.00 for a 400 watt one, a Harbor Freight POS no less) inverters. This keeps coming up for some reason and I keep correcting people, I believe Eric at Luna was quoted as saying use a sine wave, if so, he is also incorrect. Now, if I was selling any type of electric device such as a charger, just to cover my butt if asked "sine wave or mod" I'd also defer to the pure sine wave camp. I have used mine on two different multi thousand mile road trips, charging while driving (and my Prius shows no change in the mileage while doing so).

Now, having said all that, small sine wave inverters have come down a lot in price, and if you are buying new, pay the small amount extra for one, it won't make a whit of difference for your charger, but you may have other loads that prefer it. I charge at a 3 amp rate (52 VDC), and the 400 watt inverter nicely covers that. I already had it on hand BTW, and have a lot of experience with small inverters through my sideline solar business, and made the decision the charger would be fine using this mod sine one. The only reason I'd even comment on the issue is to keep it as cheap and simple as possible. Lastly, being on a road trip with your ebike, seeing something you want to check out and riding.....and then re charging on the move again is great fun. An occasional quick ride really makes the drive more entertaining and keeps you alert. I carry my folding Montague inside the Prius, so no extra aero drag, and can sleep in the back of it, it's a great road trip rig and 50 mpg is super easy to get!


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

portnuefpeddler said:


> Negatory, no need for a pure sine wave inverter. I use two different LUNA chargers on two different mod sine wave (cheap, less then $50.00 for a 400 watt one, a Harbor Freight POS no less) inverters. This keeps coming up for some reason and I keep correcting people, I believe Eric at Luna was quoted as saying use a sine wave, if so, he is also incorrect. Now, if I was selling any type of electric device such as a charger, just to cover my butt if asked "sine wave or mod" I'd also defer to the pure sine wave camp. I have used mine on two different multi thousand mile road trips, charging while driving (and my Prius shows no change in the mileage while doing so).
> 
> Now, having said all that, small sine wave inverters have come down a lot in price, and if you are buying new, pay the small amount extra for one, it won't make a whit of difference for your charger, but you may have other loads that prefer it. I charge at a 3 amp rate (52 VDC), and the 400 watt inverter nicely covers that. I already had it on hand BTW, and have a lot of experience with small inverters through my sideline solar business, and made the decision the charger would be fine using this mod sine one. The only reason I'd even comment on the issue is to keep it as cheap and simple as possible. Lastly, being on a road trip with your ebike, seeing something you want to check out and riding.....and then re charging on the move again is great fun. An occasional quick ride really makes the drive more entertaining and keeps you alert. I carry my folding Montague inside the Prius, so no extra aero drag, and can sleep in the back of it, it's a great road trip rig and 50 mpg is super easy to get!


Really I don't need a pure sini wave inverter? was told by Chris the owner of HI Power cycles that I did something about a cleaner voltage let me ask you this can I do this just by the 12v plug cig liter ?? or do I need to use a extra car battery? Also I want to outfit a small camper with solar power so I can camp were I ride. How much solar panels would I need to run the camper and be able to charge my bike ? what in your eyes would I need ?


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

NO, you do not need pure sine wave, square wave cheapie inverters will work fine, Chris is incorrect, sort of. Like using premium car gas in a car that does not need it, NO advantage other then it makes the owner feel like since he's paying more so it must be better! Having said that, with your camper van needs in mind, pure sine wave type will make less noise when running sensitive electronics (this does not include battery chargers) and also provide a "like home" picture on a TV. Plenty of info out there on RV solar (get as much PV as you have room for and can afford, you'll never regret it) so I won't clog up things here. But for a rock bottom expense for a mobile charge, square wave is is fine. No extra car battery required, if you charge while driving, a minor drain if charging while parked. Install a new heavy duty (google for these, marine types are good) 12 VDC receptacle, fuse the hot line, and there's your new place to plug in a little inverter, keep it simple. 

Two golf cart or marine Wal Mart batteries (not the best, but we're talking budget here, but good enough) 200 or 500 watts of solar (or whatever you have room for and can afford) a charge controller, and you now have a mini off grid system, you can run a small micro wave, TV, AND charge your bike while camped.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

portnuefpeddler said:


> NO, you do not need pure sine wave, square wave cheapie inverters will work fine, Chris is incorrect, sort of. Like using premium car gas in a car that does not need it, NO advantage other then it makes the owner feel like since he's paying more so it must be better! Having said that, with your camper van needs in mind, pure sine wave type will make less noise when running sensitive electronics (this does not include battery chargers) and also provide a "like home" picture on a TV. Plenty of info out there on RV solar (get as much PV as you have room for and can afford, you'll never regret it) so I won't clog up things here. But for a rock bottom expense for a mobile charge, square wave is is fine. No extra car battery required, if you charge while driving, a minor drain if charging while parked. Install a new heavy duty (google for these, marine types are good) 12 VDC receptacle, fuse the hot line, and there's your new place to plug in a little inverter, keep it simple.
> 
> Two golf cart or marine Wal Mart batteries (not the best, but we're talking budget here, but good enough) 200 or 500 watts of solar (or whatever you have room for and can afford) a charge controller, and you now have a mini off grid system, you can run a small micro wave, TV, AND charge your bike while camped.


Thanks finally something useful from this forum charging by bike on the go is gonna help me ride the trails a lot more Thanks .


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## buell (Oct 15, 2015)

rider95 said:


> Thanks finally something useful from this forum charging by bike on the go is gonna help me ride the trails a lot more Thanks .


14 months and 433 posts and this is the first useful thing you've gotten from this forum? Why so long?


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Giant Warp said:


> My wife was in no sense of the word a mountain biker. However, since I bought her a Turbo Levo she has become the wonder woman mountain biker extraordinaire.


My GF was a lot slower than me and not a hardcore cyclist. We got a tandem so we could ride together at the same pace. The thing is she still had to pedal and all that exercise has improved her speed enough now that she can keep up pretty well on a solo bike so we don't ride the tandem a ton anymore.

When I met her she couldn't pedal up a steep hill on a bicycle without dying...now she's on Strava and is hunting for QOMs.

I could have set her up with an electric moped so we could ride together, but in the end that would have only addressed the symptom of the issue and not the underlying problem.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

I think eBikes are awesome for commuting and general local transportation. If I could afford it, and thought it'd be where I locked it up after leaving the store (Metro PHX sucks), I would *absolutely own one for errands, I'd probably even support a pedal-assist road-type bike for exploring and such. 

I don't believe, and never will believe, that pedal assist has a place on single track.


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## MyZenNolan (May 30, 2011)

singletrackmack said:


> It's the reality of how it works for 99.9% of ebikes, but good for you. Also,pics or it didn't happen.


Just because I like to argue:

Coal was the second-largest energy source for U.S. electricity generation in 2016-about 30%


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

elee325 said:


> I like to give an ebike a try but my only fear is what to do with my other three expensive bikes. The ebike will spoil me and the money invested on other bikes will be wasted. Does anybody have experience of going back and forth from ebikes to traditional bikes?


Yes, I do. My family has 4 Specialized Turbo road bikes. I also ride a new Cannondale Synapse road bike, Turbo Levo E bike, New Jet 9 RDO, Fuji graveler, and Redline singlespeed. I go back and forth all the time. Nothing wrong with it. NO JUDGEMENT ZONE. I'm not a cycling elitist a**. Buy one, have fun and ride it legally.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

This really needs to be in a thread of its own; perhaps I'll start one.

E-bikes displacing cars = generally good for the planet.

E-bikes displacing regular MTB's = generally bad for the planet.

Reason; a huge amount of dirty energy goes into making batteries. Doesn't matter how green one's method is for charging the batteries; unless there's an offset somewhere else the carbon debt will never be recovered by recreational e-bike use.


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## GLJ (Dec 11, 2016)

portnuefpeddler said:


> NO, you do not need pure sine wave, square wave cheapie inverters will work fine,


I'd be wary of this advice. It might be the case with some ebike chargers, that doesn't mean it applies to all types, and there are lots of different types!

As a matter of interest though, what chargers do you know for certain work fine with modified sine inverters?


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

My two chargers from LUNA work normal on mod sine wave power. I'd imagine all chargers have basically the same technology and would work similarly well. No big deal, small sine wave inverters are pretty cheap and readily available nowadays, it wasn't always so. As are chargers for that matter. I just started using mine because I had it laying around in the shop and figured what the hell, let's try it. My experience over the almost 3 decades I was off grid, is that 99% of things work OK on mod sine wave. 

The important thing, is having a setup to allow easy hassle free charging from a vehicle. A Prius is especially well suited for this as I can park it and leave it charging, and as long as I leave it turned on (the car) the main car battery keeps the little 12 v. battery topped off. Eventually (quite a while) if the main car battery gets low, the ICE comes on automatically, runs for a few minutes at an efficient RPM, and shuts off. Hauling an ebike around with a Prius makes a pretty cool combo, great mileage, and a fully charged battery when you arrive where ever. Heat or cool all night when sleeping in it also, same deal with that big battery doing the work, with occasional help from the ICE.


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## GLJ (Dec 11, 2016)

portnuefpeddler said:


> My two chargers from LUNA work normal on mod sine wave power. I'd imagine all chargers have basically the same technology and would work similarly well. No big deal, small sine wave inverters are pretty cheap and readily available nowadays, it wasn't always so. As are chargers for that matter. I just started using mine because I had it laying around in the shop and figured what the hell, let's try it. My experience over the almost 3 decades I was off grid, is that 99% of things work OK on mod sine wave.


Hmmm. Well my household has Bosch, Yamaha and A2B chargers, and all of them seem to be around 150 UK pounds. Not really something I'd call particularly cheap to replace. Certainly not something I want to experiment with in case any of them do go pop!
And some things WILL catastrophically fail if you plug them into a modified sine wave generator, especially more modern stuff that uses for example transformerless charging.
That said, I think there is a strong chance that a majority of ebike chargers might very well be ok, but finding definitive information on it is proving to be very, very tricky!


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## rustydogg (Oct 9, 2016)

I think ebikes here in Southern California would be a good thing. The way I see it the more people are out there riding their bikes the better for us bike riders. 
I'm seriously thinking about buying an ebike or converting one of mine to get a taste of it. I want one for commuting I have a 12 mile commute each way. However I can only have so many bikes so I need to figure this out. I need my mountain bike for the trails, the ebike to commute. However I also need a regular beater bike to ride around to run errands due to an ebike and my mountain bike being a good target for thiefs. I can only have so many bikes due to space. 
Also my employer would let me charge the battery at work. We generate most of our own power and lots of employees use the outlets to charge their vehicles. There was a time when Edison installed car chargers years ago but they were taken out because nobody used them.


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