# Does this forum belong on MTBR



## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

AFAICT, this forum was added to MTBR by the owner. However, some individuals keep whining that it serves no purpose here. I disagree, but suggest that those who think this way grow a pair and inform the owner of your dissatisfaction. I think it might be a very instructive exercise for you.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

fos'l said:


> AFAICT, this forum was added to MTBR by the owner. However, some individuals keep whining that it serves no purpose here. I disagree, but suggest that those who think this way grow a pair and inform the owner of your dissatisfaction. I think it might be a very instructive exercise for you.


Why? The owner doesn't give two shittes what the overwhelming majority of users of this forum think about this sub-forum.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

FC doesn't care. A number of mods have said the same thing to him, but he wants it here, so here it stays. I assume it generates eyeballs and hence ad revenue. Such is the internet.

I'm guessing 90+% of the regular users here would prefer that the forum didn't exist (didn't someone do a poll about that at some point?) but it's not a democracy.

-Walt


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Walt said:


> FC doesn't care. A number of mods have said the same thing to him, but he wants it here, so here it stays. I assume it generates eyeballs and hence ad revenue. Such is the internet.
> 
> I'm guessing 90+% of the regular users here would prefer that the forum didn't exist (didn't someone do a poll about that at some point?) but it's not a democracy.
> 
> -Walt


97% against in one poll.


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## the-ninth (Nov 1, 2013)

I do not get the issues people have with E-MTBs. Personally I am not interested in E-MTBs (yet), but why should I be bothered by a forum for them? I don't care about XC bikes or riding in California, but do not complain about these forum either ...

And it's good to ignore the majority opinion here - even in a democracy minority rights need protection.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

the-ninth said:


> I do not get the issues people have with E-MTBs. Personally I am not interested in E-MTBs (yet), but why should I be bothered by a forum for them? I don't care about XC bikes or riding in California, but do not complain about these forum either ...
> 
> And it's good to ignore the majority opinion here - even in a democracy minority rights need protection.


Emotorbikes aren't a right thank dawg.


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## TacoBeer (Sep 9, 2008)

fos'l said:


> AFAICT, this forum was added to MTBR by the owner. However, some individuals keep whining that it serves no purpose here. I disagree, but suggest that those who think this way grow a pair and inform the owner of your dissatisfaction. I think it might be a very instructive exercise for you.


Funny you should come up with this when I just bumped up this topic from a different post. As I said in the other post the only positive about a E-bike column is that I now understand how motor bike enthusiast think. when I first heard about E-Bike I didn't really care because I thought it was for street purpose only and the few who would try to take them on a non-motorized trail would break down and have a long haul out. Then I started seeing how so many of you guys really believe they are bicycles and feel they should be on any trail a bicycle should be on and how they try to twist and make a simple word have a different meaning. All this changed my mind quick and I will do what I can to keep these motor vehicles off non motorized trails.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

My thought is that folks riding e-bikes can find useful information beyond the rhetoric posted by some on this forum.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

Fos'l ...... yes it does. E-bike are an alternative form of mountain biking. And as this site seems to incorporate all other forms of mountain biking, it is more than appropriate that it includes a e-bike section



the-ninth said:


> I do not get the issues people have with E-MTBs. Personally I am not interested in E-MTBs (yet), but why should I be bothered by a forum for them? I don't care about XC bikes or riding in California, but do not complain about these forum either ...
> 
> And it's good to ignore the majority opinion here - even in a democracy minority rights need protection.


It's just a pity that others don't share the same sediment as you The-Ninth. And good to see a common sense post. But unfortunately there seems to be a few immature people on here that are just trolling. 
I have reasons for riding an electric assist bike, and it's a decision I made to do so. But it seems that we cannot have a discussion between interested e-bike users on this forum, without the rhetoric of those norrow minded opponents of them.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

AGarcia said:


> My thought is that folks riding e-bikes can find useful information beyond the rhetoric posted by some on this forum.


Compared to an ebike specific forum, there's very little useful information here for ebike riders.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

TacoBeer said:


> Funny you should come up with this when I just bumped up this topic from a different post. As I said in the other post the only positive about a E-bike column is that I now understand how motor bike enthusiast think. when I first heard about E-Bike I didn't really care because I thought it was for street purpose only and the few who would try to take them on a non-motorized trail would break down and have a long haul out. Then I started seeing how so many of you guys really believe they are bicycles and feel they should be on any trail a bicycle should be on and how they try to twist and make a simple word have a different meaning. All this changed my mind quick and I will do what I can to keep these motor vehicles off non motorized trails.


I think this is the major outcome from this forum, as well as ad revenue for Francis. He really should have jumped on the bandwagon early though and set up eMTBR as a separate site.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Harryman said:


> Compared to an ebike specific forum, there's very little useful information here for ebike riders.


Well, given that I ride an e-bike from time to time....and you don't... I'm going to agree to disagree with you.  Heck, even you've provided me with useful e-bike information on this forum. So, Thank you.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KiwiPhil said:


> Fos'l ...... yes it does. E-bike are an alternative form of mountain biking.


^ alternative fact



KiwiPhil said:


> It's just a pity that others don't share the same sediment as you The-Ninth.


The-Ninth, there are many legitimate reasons mtbers have issues with ebikes. I suggest you read through some of the other threads to learn about these, though you will have to read through a lot of nonsense (on both sides) as well. There are legitimate uses for ebikes that mtbrs are fine with.



KiwiPhil said:


> I have reasons for riding an electric assist bike, and it's a decision I made to do so. But it seems that we cannot have a discussion between interested e-bike users on this forum, without the rhetoric of those norrow minded opponents of them.


If you feel comfortable doing so, please feel free to share your reasons. I don't think any of us are opposed to disabled using ebikes. Again, it's where they start trying to claim they are bicycles and should be allowed anywhere bicycles are allowed that there are issues.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I was reminded of how annoying e-bikes are on last evening's ride when I was pushing hard on a decent tempo ride and along comes a helmet-less tool zooming around on his moped-like contraption.

He's not a cyclist nor will be on that goofy rig. Either you pedal unassisted as a cyclist or rely on an engine like a lame moped boy.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

KiwiPhil said:


> Fos'l ...... yes it does. E-bike are an alternative form of mountain biking. And as this site seems to incorporate all other forms of mountain biking, it is more than appropriate that it includes a e-bike section
> 
> It's just a pity that others don't share the same sediment as you The-Ninth. And good to see a common sense post. But unfortunately there seems to be a few immature people on here that are just trolling.
> I have reasons for riding an electric assist bike, and it's a decision I made to do so. But it seems that we cannot have a discussion between interested e-bike users on this forum, without the rhetoric of those norrow minded opponents of them.


 New Zealand, hmmm. Here in the USA, bikes don't have motors. Start there. Other places have other rules regarding moto access.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

AGarcia said:


> Well, given that I ride an e-bike from time to time....and you don't... I'm going to agree to disagree with you.  Heck, even you've provided me with useful e-bike information on this forum. So, Thank you.


I'm glad you learned something here, I didn't realize that riding ebikes on a regular basis is a requirement to learning about them. I've ridden them enough to get the gist of it.

My point is that the majority of emtb riders here are new to an ebike, on their first, and many of them are riding the same model. On other ebike forums, there are lots of riders with years of experience since they've been sold and legal elsewhere for years, as well as much more info on various models and motors, the pros and cons, mechanical issues specific to certain designs, upgrades, etc.

There's hardly any diy kit riders here, so not much in the way of an extensive knowledge base for that, unlike other forums.

Access and legislation is always a topic elsewhere as well, and it can be more balanced. Sometimes. Believe it or not, there are ebike riders that are worried about losing access and want to see tighter regulations and self policing. They're in the minority, and often not in the US, but they're out there.

For all those who complain about this forum being hostile to ebikes, check out any the ebike threads on any road bike site, it's even worse. :eekster:


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## krel (May 9, 2017)

It seems like the ebike "problem" here isn't really about the technology - it's about the potential impact on trail access. When all ebikes - motor-assist bicycles/mopeds - get lumped together by trail access opponents (horse riders and hikers) that's a problem - it's like saying cars go too fast because a $200K sports car can hit 180MPH. 

When ebike proponents try to lump bikes and ebikes together, and then anti-access types lump all ebike classes together and claim people could be riding on multi-use trails at 50MPH, just because that's a slippery slope argument doesn't mean it won't have an impact on the people who make access decisions.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

1) I've stated many times that e-bikes are different, but inane posters can't wait to bring that up.
2) e-MTB neither solicit nor need any assistance. As I said before, let's call them "Fred", "Sam" or e-MTB to differentiate them. 
3) The most prominent other e-bike site deals mostly in high power systems, so not much use for many of us.
4) The biggest problem with this forum is that almost every thread becomes an access issue mostly because the moderator(s) (I realize Walt isn't the mod) don't control the issue IMO.
5) This forum could be useful for interchange of information between e-MTBer's with each other and with MTB if we could get rid of the trolls.
6) There's a reason that the biggest "new" product at Sea Otter was e-MTB since manufacturers expect the market to increase as MTB riders "age out".
7) The e-negatives are always harping about the harm caused by e-MTB and have many implausible reasons, but never start a thread about the issues primarily because there aren't any examples to reference.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

Walt said:


> FC doesn't care. A number of mods have said the same thing to him, but he wants it here, so here it stays. I assume it generates eyeballs and hence ad revenue. Such is the internet.
> 
> I'm guessing 90+% of the regular users here would prefer that the forum didn't exist (didn't someone do a poll about that at some point?) but it's not a democracy.
> 
> -Walt


Yup. MTBR and the MTB industry wants to try and piggyback electric mountain mopeds off the existing mountain bike infrastructure - both in real life and virtually. MTBR has a sister site for road bikes, but I suspect the fear is if you put electric mountain mopeds on its own site the traffic would be low and it wouldn't generate as much momentum for the folks selling these mopeds.

It also doesn't serve their unstated goal to try and equate human powered bicycles with mopeds so the moped industry and riders doesn't have to deal with the hassles of lobbying for trail access as a distinct user group.

I'd love to see no moped content on MTBR other than maybe news articles around access issues to stay informed. Some mountain bike sites have listened to the complaints of their viewers and either mostly eliminated or greatly reduced the moped content. Of course others haven't.

Beyond my general dislike for building more motors and batteries for recreational purposes when we have a population that doesn't need less exercise and a planet that doesn't need more batteries - I have no issue with mopeds existing and the moped industry/riders lobbying land managers for trail access.

Most of the problems I see with how electric mountain mopeds were rolled out stem from trying to pretend they are the same as a non-motorized human power only mountain bike.


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

Why not? There's a cyclocross and gravel bike sub forum?

Hell, theres a BEER subforum.
You can't have mature, productive discussion about something unless both sides get their say. Beneath all the drama and vitriol there is a good bit of discussion, and education here.
If nothing else it's helping to flesh out the legal trails from the non-legal ones.
I personally believe ebikes should be aggressively restricted to where motorized vehicles only. Follow the rules and stay off the "bike/horse/foot only" trails and we'll get along just fine.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

We've stated repeatedly against poaching and we still don't get along worth a crap, that is except on the trail with MTB riders not couch jockeys.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

ARandomBiker said:


> Why not? There's a cyclocross and gravel bike sub forum?
> 
> Hell, theres a BEER subforum.


None of those are motorized.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

vikb said:


> None of those are motorized.


Clearly you've never tried an eBeer. It's usually found right next to Apple's iBeer, at Amazon/Whole Foods.


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

The bike industry, and I include sites like MTBR in this want to normalize motors to increase sales. It's all about profit, even though it will hurt access. They are not bicycles, and have no place in a cycling forum, except in the context of access. How about a moped review.com?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

It belongs here so that we can continue to expose motorbikes as the insidious threat to access that they truly are.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Walt said:


> FC doesn't care. A number of mods have said the same thing to him, but he wants it here, so here it stays. I assume it generates eyeballs and hence ad revenue. Such is the internet.
> 
> I'm guessing 90+% of the regular users here would prefer that the forum didn't exist (didn't someone do a poll about that at some point?) but it's not a democracy.
> 
> -Walt


Nope. He does what he wants. I don't think he cares what anyone wants as long as it brings traffic and revenue to his site.

There's a demand to have a guerrilla gravity forum but he won't do that, even though it'll bring traffic to his site. But I guess it's not the type of traffic he wants. He has no problem having his staff creating spam to create topics in sub forums just to create traffic either, but I'm not sure that's the right way to compete against Facebook. All I can see that doing is pissing people off and making them leave.

But it's his site and he does what he wants. But e-bikes are really a big thing because they're a hot point and pisses people off so it brings more traffic, which is what he wants--even if it pisses off the majority of the community.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

motocatfish said:


> The forum is infested with whiny ehaters who will never accept change.


You probably don't understand how offensive that comment is. I hope you don't anyway.

An infestation implies a large influx of unwelcome creatures which disrupts the normal balance of an environment. In this instance, the 'ehaters' to whom you refer are not disruptive newcomers. We are the majority of forum users who have spent years developing and enriching this forum. If any user-group could be described as an infestation, it could only be e-bike advocates.

You may have the support of the site owner but understand that, among the majority of the forum users, you are not welcome and not wanted. If it ever comes down to you or us, and you are gifted the win, this will be a pretty small forum.


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

It's a conspiracy from the bike industry. First they convinced you all that fat tires and plus tires were so great that we could all overlook the weight and slow acceleration of bigger tires. Then once you all got hooked on it, they would throw you a bone with an easier way to get those big wheels/tires up the hills. They have been planning this for years.

And I agree...,what we think is not important. The advertising revenue is what drives this website. Which doesn't make a whole lotta sense....as very few people use this "Review" site to actually review products. No users/no forum....this website would be a ghost town. :nono:


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

fos'l said:


> We've stated repeatedly against poaching and we still don't get along worth a crap, that is except on the trail with MTB riders not couch jockeys.


You know why we don't get along? Because literally every ebike I've ever crossed paths with was riding on a trail that was off limits to them. 
I know this, because they were all riding in county parks or conservancy areas that had 'closed to motorized vehicles' signage at the trailhead.
I don't care what you claim about poaching. You may personally not, but many others do. 
If I rode on state land where there were no vehicle restrictions and saw an ebike, I still wouldn't 'get it' but I'd smile and wave like I would to any other rider, because it'd be legal for them to ride there.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

What the actual problem is here is that ebikes is a broad subject. Electronic pedal assist systems arent the problem. 

Its the guys that modify them that are. 

The aftermarket kits that are available.

There isnt a dang thing wrong with pedal assist in its OEM design. But when ppl start modifying them and breaking the laws it causes problems for literally everyone.

What others don't understand is ebikes in ANY FORM have a MOTOR. Look it up. So ebikes by definition are MOTORIZED VEHICLES. Which means illegal on non motorized trails.

Many are going off about they should have access, riding illegally, etc. This doesnt help the cause.

First is to become part of the groups that handle trail access in your area and being able to present the matter in the proper means. Not carrying an "entitled" attitude. The whole honey vs vinegar thing.

Next would be helping police those modifying them. If they arent true pedal assist, help regular MTBers and park rangers get rid of them.

If it has a motor and throttle control, not strictly pedal assist it has no right to non-motorized trails, period. At that point it is a motorcycle. 

Pedal assist has no negative effects beyond some peoples egos getting hurt. Throttle control, higher power, etc, that is a danger in many ways. Those that ride them more often than not have no regard for other users either.

But those that make the rules have to be shown the difference. Mtb as a hole has gone through decades of battles for access. 

Pedal assist bike users are going to have to deal with the same thing. And have to prove they are of like minds with mtbers and other non-motorized trail users.

All that said, pedal assist info has a place here because much of the bikes are the same as we ride, just with a battery and motor to help move the pedals. Custom builds, mods, etc to the electronic system have NO PLACE HERE.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

chazpat said:


> ^ alternative fact
> 
> The-Ninth, there are many legitimate reasons mtbers have issues with ebikes. I suggest you read through some of the other threads to learn about these, though you will have to read through a lot of nonsense (on both sides) as well. There are legitimate uses for ebikes that mtbrs are fine with.
> 
> If you feel comfortable doing so, please feel free to share your reasons. I don't think any of us are opposed to disabled using ebikes. Again, it's where they start trying to claim they are bicycles and should be allowed anywhere bicycles are allowed that there are issues.


Sure, I'm only too happy to share why I opted for an E-Bike.
I was heavily into mountain biking up till 7 years ago. I had started with the sport in its infancy here in NZ and found it not only a good way to keep my fitness up, but also served to keep the adrenalin rush happening in between rides on my Motox bike. However, in my early forties I was forced to give away both sports due to issues with my knees. I had been told I had the options of keeping on riding, or keeping on walking. I decided being able to walk was the best option for obvious reasons.
In this time, my mates who I used to ride with continued to do so, and their fitness is now in the "very very' high category. Earlier this year I was diagnosed with further health issues which affected my blood pressure, heart and cholesterol levels. I was told that as well as having to go onto certain medicines, I also had to get my fitness up and get back into shape to extent my life span. I knew this wouldn't be easy with a dodgy knee as well as a recently mangled ankle, and the lack of fitness. 
Now, other contributing factures into why I made my decision are:
1/ have had two life saving emergency operations.
2/ Suffer from joint issues other than my knee and ankle
3/ I'm legally blind and awaiting on cornea transplants, and also partly deaf.
4/ I snapped the tendons across 3 of my fingers in a motox accident which has caused them to curl up beyond level at the last joint, this also effects the strength in them. 
5/ broken bones etc, etc etc, you get the point.

So basically my body is nothing like it used to be....

Now, One day while out on my Giant Reign (yes I still have a conventional mtb and it still gets used:thumbsup I was going for a little tour when I bumped into a mate who had recently brought a Specialized Levo. He insisted on me taking it for a ride, and for that I am eternally grateful. I saw it as a way for me to get out more and spend time back a bike and get some exercise, while once again enjoying myself. I have now lost 8kg and in a healthy mid 80kg range (although my goal is to still loose another 2 or 3 kg)

I truly believe that if I didn't have the Levo, my health would be continuing to deteriorate. But now after several months of being more active, I feel a lot better for doing so, and get many comments that support this.

Anti e-bike people should consider that not all people are equal, and that a lot of people who choose an e-bike may have reasons that may not be visible on the outside, but at least its making a difference in their life.

Also, the acceptance of e-bikes here in New Zealand seems to be different to what is happening elsewhere. There are NO LIMITATIONS ON WHERE WE CAN RIDE. In fact I ride my regular mtb park with the guys who built the trails. The are only more than happy that I am back out and riding with them. They see first hand that the Levo does in no way damage their trails any more than a regular MTB (in fact less). They have happily jumped on board and taken the Levo for a few spins, and although they enjoyed the test, its not their "cup to tea". But because its not them, they do not show any form of hatred towards e-bike riders, and have excepted it just a new form of hitting the trails. They don't waffle on about the Levo not being a Bike, because were too busy out on the trails having fun in our own way, but still together.

And folks, thats my story and how I ended up with the Specialized Levo that I love to ride. And while I'm sitting here typing this, I'm really f'ed off that its raining outside and freezing cold and a ride will have to wait another day.......


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

KiwiPhil said:


> And folks, that's my story and how I ended up with the Specialized Levo that I love to ride...


Great story but you guys just don't get it. No one is saying that ebikes are not a gift to people with health issues. I would bet you my house that virtually all of the current and future eBike safety, access and trail damage issues are and will be caused by perfectly healthy people. Unless you class being selfish as a disability?


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## SugarHigh (Dec 9, 2011)

eBikes share so many of the same components as regular mtbs. They use the same gear/appareal/protect/racks, ... Their riders pedal. They are part of the over all mtb industry, not dirt bikes. Peddlers will ride with an eBike user, moto folks will not ride with an eBike user. The eBikes and their riders have way more in common with mtb folks.

All riders need a good way to find their people and find info. Let them have a sub forum here. Don't be haters. You don't have to go into their forum.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> trail damage issues are and will be caused


 Yes Mr Pig, but unfortunately in life there will always be the few that spoil it for the many. I guess what I am saying is don't tar all e-bike riders with the same brush. Its a little like saying that all people who are not into e-bikes want to through e-bike riders under a train.......but there seems to be a distinct few here that would happily do so and are very vocal about it (and we all can see who they are), however, its easy to see that with the level of membership to this site, its not the majority who constantly debate the issues on every e-bike thread. And within the mtb fraternity there will be the idiots that ride standard mtb's that have killed off access to area's due to being part of the neglectful few.

I'm not against healthy debate, and respect that you have voiced your concerns in the manner that you have. But the constant bickering and repetitive responses from some do nothing to help the situation. i.e. constantly calling them a motorbike, or not a bike and the like. Some of it has become very childish. And yes, it can come from both sides.

As to trail damage caused by e-bikes, I was on a night ride with my buddies, who ride standard mountain bikes, where it was damp under the wheels and a clay based trail, so a little slippery. We did 5 laps of the trails. I ride either mid pack or at the back and allow them to set the pace. However, on every lap we noted that their bikes would wheel spin on the up hills, and mostly at the same point every lap. But.......with the torque of the Levo in low assist mode, which is where I run it, there was absolutely NO wheel spin. This was commented on, with praise, from the other riders (who also built the tracks). This somewhat went to dispel the falsity that e-bike caused more damage to their trails in their minds. 
You may have a different opinion as to the trail damage, which I would be happy to hear.

Cheers


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

KiwiPhil said:


> Fos'l ...... yes it does. E-bike are an alternative form of mountain biking. And as this site seems to incorporate all other forms of mountain biking, it is more than appropriate that it includes a e-bike section
> 
> It's just a pity that others don't share the same sediment as you The-Ninth. And good to see a common sense post. But unfortunately there seems to be a few immature people on here that are just trolling.
> I have reasons for riding an electric assist bike, and it's a decision I made to do so. But it seems that we cannot have a discussion between interested e-bike users on this forum, without the rhetoric of those norrow minded opponents of them.


It's awesome that when somebody disagrees with you, they are "narrow-minded and immature". Or is that ironic...


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## TacoBeer (Sep 9, 2008)

SugarHigh said:


> eBikes share so many of the same components as regular mtbs. They use the same gear/appareal/protect/racks, ... Their riders pedal. They are part of the over all mtb industry, not dirt bikes. Peddlers will ride with an eBike user, moto folks will not ride with an eBike user. The eBikes and their riders have way more in common with mtb folks.
> 
> All riders need a good way to find their people and find info. Let them have a sub forum here. Don't be haters. You don't have to go into their forum.


Wow! surprised and disappointed on your view but I won't knowingly ride a single track trail with an ebike like I won't ride with someone who shows up without a helmet. I lend them a helmet and I'll lend them a Mountain bike and tell them to either ride on without me or leave the moto in the garage.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> It's awesome that when somebody disagrees with you, they are "narrow-minded and immature". Or is that ironic...


Reading through some of the anti e-bike rhetoric that gets posted by the same people every time, I stand by my statement. I am only happy for people to have their own views/opinions on the matter, and if you read previous posts I'm happy to debate in a friendly manor, and I agree to disagree with those that hold different views. But when people go into an E-bike forum for the only reason to keep stating the same stuff over and over to stir things up, it does become a little "narrow minded and immature"

Now, that being said, what's your view on e-bikes MountainBikeR24???????


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

KiwiPhil said:


> i.e. constantly calling them a motorbike


I like Vikb's "mountain moped" the best so far.


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## BootneyLee (Apr 25, 2017)

Crankout said:


> I was reminded of how annoying e-bikes are on last evening's ride when I was pushing hard on a decent tempo ride and along comes a helmet-less tool zooming around on his moped-like contraption.


Serious question: and this "helmet-less tool" annoyed you, how?

Assuming that person was an adult, if that person wants to put him/herself at a higher risk of having a cracked cranium... why does it bother *you*?

I'm not trying to stir the pot with you - I'm genuinely curious what annoyed you.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

ARandomBiker said:


> You know why we don't get along? Because literally every ebike I've ever crossed paths with was riding on a trail that was off limits to them.
> I know this, because they were all riding in county parks or conservancy areas that had 'closed to motorized vehicles' signage at the trailhead.
> I don't care what you claim about poaching. You may personally not, but many others do.
> If I rode on state land where there were no vehicle restrictions and saw an ebike, I still wouldn't 'get it' but I'd smile and wave like I would to any other rider, because it'd be legal for them to ride there.


Absolutely. In my area there isn't an inch of single track that's open to motorized vehicles. Guess where I've run into every ebike I've ever seen (I don't ride in motorized areas)? Yep, on human powered only trails. And yes, there are signs at every trailhead. And yes, I inform each one and have them leave the area. I even had one guy tell me he was going to return his ebike to the store. He said they'd lied to him about where he was allowed to ride them. In reality, I'm sure his shop just twisted the Utah law so that they could sell a bike. I've experienced that kind of salesmanship first hand. All of this subterfuge is a major reason that ebike access will never happen. It's also one of the reasons there is so much ebike animosity on this site.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

Silentfoe said:


> It's also one of the reasons there is so much ebike animosity on this site.


SO you are happy now admit animosity against all e-bike users here, although stated by many e-bike users here, including myself, that we use them within the laws and restrictions of the areas where we use them. Again, your tarnishing all with the same brush as those that don't comply. 
And guess what, not all regions of the world have the restrictions that you may have! Maybe the best place to vent your "animosity" regarding this is in the Threads on that very topic. Rather than the constant repartition on every thread.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Actually, most of the ebike users in this forum openly admit to poaching trails.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

We should have an illegal single track poaching section too. Then we can share ideas on how to avoid the police, build on private land without getting caught. Anyway carry on.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

While an ebike forum may bring eyeballs and revenue to this site it's a disservice to the other 99% percent of the eyeballs and thus 99% revenue.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

alexbn921 said:


> We should have an illegal single track poaching section too. Then we can share ideas on how to avoid the police, build on private land without getting caught. Anyway carry on.


Agreed & would add it really amounts to building on long existing hard faught trail. The entitled few causing problems not only for the rest of us but the future rest of as well.


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## PhxChem (Aug 4, 2010)

Harryman said:


> I think this is the major outcome from this forum, as well as ad revenue for Francis. He really should have jumped on the bandwagon early though and set up eMTBR as a separate site.


Probably the most astute observation so far.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

alexbn921 said:


> We should have an illegal single track poaching section too. Then we can share ideas on how to avoid the police, build on private land without getting caught. Anyway carry on.


Oh...Oh...Oh...I like...I like...I'm all in...let's do it....oh I'm already doing it...lol....shucks man I thought you were onto something big!


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## PhxChem (Aug 4, 2010)

SugarHigh said:


> eBikes share so many of the same components as regular mtbs. They use the same gear/appareal/protect/racks, ... Their riders pedal. They are part of the over all mtb industry, not dirt bikes. Peddlers will ride with an eBike user, moto folks will not ride with an eBike user. The eBikes and their riders have way more in common with mtb folks.
> 
> All riders need a good way to find their people and find info. Let them have a sub forum here. Don't be haters. You don't have to go into their forum.


Agreed. They are mountain bikes. I, like many people, hope ebikes never take off and hope they die a quick death...but why cut off discussion/debate? Just for appearances?

Has someone pointed to this trend as a reason not to allow access? I wouldn't put it past some land managers....


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## TacoBeer (Sep 9, 2008)

TacoBeer said:


> Wow! surprised and disappointed on your view but I won't knowingly ride a single track trail with an ebike like I won't ride with someone who shows up without a helmet. I lend them a helmet and I'll lend them a Mountain bike and tell them to either ride on without me or leave the moto in the garage.


oh! and I must add that I won't ride with an E-bike because most likely I would be on a trail where a motor vehicle is illegal. But I'll ride along someone on an E-bike if I ever get into gravel grinding and it's not a paid bicycle event.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

TacoBeer said:


> Wow! surprised and disappointed on your view but I won't knowingly ride a single track trail with an ebike like I won't ride with someone who shows up without a helmet. I lend them a helmet and I'll lend them a Mountain bike and tell them to either ride on without me or leave the moto in the garage.


No problem I'll lend you an emtb then you can stay up with everyone else...yes a helmet is a must...


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

KiwiPhil said:


> Its a little like saying that all people who are not into e-bikes want to through e-bike riders under a train.......but there seems to be a distinct few here that would happily do so and are very vocal about it (and we all can see who they are), however, its easy to see that with the level of membership to this site, its not the majority who constantly debate the issues on every e-bike thread.


You're misrepresenting the facts I'm afraid. In a poll over ninety-percent of forum users said they did not want eBikes to be part of this forum. Remove the ebike users from that poll and heck, you're probably talking close to everyone else.

We 'debate' the same issues over and over and over again because eBike users will not admit the truth of their situation and deal with it. It's like fighting a revolving door. Few people have the stomach to continually enter into debate about it because it's depressing and frustrating having the same argument over and over again but the reality is that virtually no one wants ebikes to be a part of this forum.

Now why to you think that is?


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> You're misrepresenting the facts I'm afraid. In a poll over ninety-percent of forum users said they did not want eBikes to be part of this forum. Remove the ebike users from that poll and heck, you're probably talking close to everyone else.
> 
> We 'debate' the same issues over and over and over again because eBike users will not admit the truth of their situation and deal with it. It's like fighting a revolving door. Few people have the stomach to continually enter into debate about it because it's depressing and frustrating having the same argument over and over again but the reality is that virtually no one wants ebikes to be a part of this forum.
> 
> Now why to you think that is?


Sorry Mr Pig, but I don't see my statement as a misrepresentation of the facts, but just saying it how I see it.
But, admittedly I do live in a far far way place, in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by nothing but oceans, and our situation here seems totally different to those that in the US. Hence my comment not to tar all e-bike riders with the same brush.
I'm still a Mtb rider, I own a Giant reign, however, as I have stated in other threads, health issues limit my ability to jump on it and ride with my mates. 
But to say "no one want e-bikes as part of this forum" is a little far fetched. I, as one do. There's other e-bike riders that do. And there's probably some good information that could be taken from here.
And believe me, the frustration of the argument is felt on both sides.
To me, the frustration for you and other non e-bike supporters is fuelled by the fact that you keep coming into the e-bike thread. Quiet simply, if you don't like it, why trouble yourself by coming here??? I know what your answer will be....to fight for access issues, to stop trail damage, to ......, to....... to....... but quiet frankly, that does not apply to all.

So, how about we all agree to disagree, and play nicely ????


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

It's difficult to have a forum where in each thread the same people come repeating the same offtopic old tunes.

Yes, you are afraid of ebikes and see them as a threat, Yes in the US it's not the same but come on, I think by now everyone has understood this, no? So create a subject where you can talk about this and let the rest of this forum be a useful source of information for the others.

This forum could simply be a place where people interested in ebikes exchange, nothing less, nothing more. 

P.S. And yes, my username is a bit defiant, sorry ;-)


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

I see them as a threat to people getting the health benefits of mountain biking. Yes there'll be some instances where the opposite is true, but the only people I know who have any interest in the things are young, capable but about 20kg+ overweight.

I don't care if it's a rare instance of them, but if they become accepted enough such that perfectly able-bodied people just start using them because they're lazy well then I have a big problem with that.

I'm also concerned about the power of the things - how high will the power figures get, between both improvements in delivered bikes along with mods?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

LTZ470 said:


> Lol...the haters and the purists will never let it rest until emtb's are all burned at the stake...they are continuously advocating against emtb's any avenue that is open to their hate...so you are dreaming if you you think these haters are going to stop...
> 
> Their mind is smaller than their peckers....and they "think" they are right on every aspect of their hate...and will continue to spew it over and over and over and over....BUT emtb's are coming one way or the other...they can all put that in their small minded pipe and smoke it...


 Really helping your cause here? Hmmm. Inevitable? Not in the least. Not here in MA anyway. Dude, whatchu been smokin? In regards to Mr Kiwi, might it be helpful to have some regional/country sub forums for e bikes?


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

BootneyLee said:


> Serious question: and this "helmet-less tool" annoyed you, how?
> 
> Assuming that person was an adult, if that person wants to put him/herself at a higher risk of having a cracked cranium... why does it bother *you*?
> 
> I'm not trying to stir the pot with you - I'm genuinely curious what annoyed you.


He was using the bike lane on his modified moped, was not wearing a helmet on a motorized vehicle and carelessly cut across the road to make a left hand turn.

Just a tool bag. He probably thought he was actually cycling.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

My stance for the record (and many others' from what I've read). No one cares if you ride your MTB shaped moped as long as it's not on a trail that prohibits motorized vehicles.

I usually ignore this subforum because it's always the same thing. Looks like I can continue to do so. Carry on with whatever it is you do here. I won't be back. :lol:


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

Smithhammer said:


> Arguing in favor of having e-bikes classified properly and managed as such does not automatically equate to "hate."
> 
> Maybe if you toned down your own hyperbole, you'd have more reasonable conversations with people.


Too funny, ever have a sane conversation with someone that hates you with a passion? And now back to reality...the hate is real and extends to the very core of purist and haters of emtb's...


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## BootneyLee (Apr 25, 2017)

Crankout said:


> He was using the bike lane on his modified moped, was not wearing a helmet on a motorized vehicle and carelessly cut across the road to make a left hand turn.
> 
> Just a tool bag. He probably thought he was actually cycling.


Yeah... doesn't sound very smart to me, but hey, if he doesn't care about getting pancaked by other cars then that's his decision. No skin off my nose. I see [a few] roadies and regular MTBers ride like tools and with no helmets but whatever. Personally, I prefer to keep my skull in one piece and am definitely a "no helmet = no ride" type&#8230; But that's just me.


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## Black Squirrel (Oct 13, 2016)

This forum is only here for these arguments and more ad revenue, take mtbr off your adblock whitelist.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't hate e-bikes. I've ridden them and I think they are super fun.

That doesn't mean I think they should be allowed everywhere a normal bike can go, or managed in the same way. Just as there's no point in lumping e-bikes in with 30hp dirtbikes, there's really also no reason to say they're the same as a purely human powered vehicle - and the low power OE models available now probably aren't representative of what they'll evolve into in the future. 

Different vehicle, different set of problems and uses, different places to use appropriately. Pretty simple.

-Walt


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

BootneyLee said:


> Yeah... doesn't sound very smart to me, but hey, if he doesn't care about getting pancaked by other cars then that's his decision. No skin off my nose. I see [a few] roadies and regular MTBers ride like tools and with no helmets but whatever. Personally, I prefer to keep my skull in one piece and am definitely a "no helmet = no ride" type&#8230; But that's just me.


It's kind of ironic, the ones I see without helmets are just screaming "noob!" but think they are too cool to wear one, not realizing all the experienced riders are trying not to laugh at them.


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

Walt said:


> ...That doesn't mean I think they should be allowed everywhere a normal bike can go, or managed in the same way...


I think we have all hear your opinion but again this is not the point here. This forum should be a place to discuss about the various subjects relating to ebikes. Now any thread ends in a war after 3 messages!

Is it really impossible to separate things? These issues, trails access, motor classifications, etc. have to be discuss but not in every single new threads.

I participate to a french forum kind of equivalent of mtbr and when the ebike section was added a few years ago the reaction was similar. But it evolved quickly and now this sub-forum lives its own life without interference. I hope it will be the same here.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

Sorry but ebiking is moto biking. As far as I know this site is run by the sponsors. IE the guys who sell mountain bikes and advertise on this site.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

eFat said:


> Is it really impossible to separate things? These issues, trails access, motor classifications, etc. have to be discuss but not in every single new threads.


Since they are all interrelated they can't be separated, and since most people here think they should not even exist good luck changing minds. If nothing else, this sub-forum is creating a lot of new advocates for banning them.


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## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

life behind bars said:


> Since they are all interrelated they can't be separated, and since most people here think they should not even exist good luck changing minds. If nothing else, this sub-forum is creating a lot of new advocates for banning them.


I agree, after following some of the threads some if not all of the e-bike crowd on this forum come off as self gratifying entitled babies.


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

More than one year ago you said about this new sub


life behind bars said:


> It may stop the motor assisted from polluting the rest of the sub forums.


One would have thought you would apply the same logic.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

eFat said:


> More than one year ago you said about this new sub
> 
> One would have thought you would apply the same logic.


But, it hasn't worked out that way.


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> But, it hasn't worked out that way.


I wonder why?

You could spend your time discussing things related to your liking elsewhere and instead your are here (where each new thread is like the Groundhog Day movie) involved in an endless dialog. I honestly don't understand the logic behind.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

eFat said:


> I wonder why?
> 
> You could spend your time discussing things related to your liking elsewhere and instead your are here (where each new thread is like the Groundhog Day movie) involved in an endless dialog. I honestly don't understand the logic behind.


Motorbike threads are not confined solely to this sub forum either, so you can stick the condescending attitude where the sun rarely shines.


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

I think ebikers can and should use this forum for information on the stuff that their ebikes share with mountain bicycles. But I dont think it should warrant a dedicated sub forum. 
how about:
https://electricbikereview.com/forum/
https://electricbike.com/forum
UK Electric Bikes l Pedelecs
Electric Bike Forums
https://pedelec-ebike-forum.de/
Pedelec-Forum
E-bikeinfo.de | E-Bike Und Pedelec News, Forum Und Test
The Stealth Hangar Forums | Stealth Electric Bikes


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Guys, the worst part about what happens over and over is new users come in and ignore well reasoned advice about not poaching, or warnings that they might be poaching, then a flame war happens and people start calling each-other names or derailing threads, and then I have to come in here and delete posts that are inappropriate, or just shut down entire threads.

There is no reason both sides cannot have a civil discussion about Bikes that have Electric motors in them.
It would be helpful if new users would read the rules of this section:
http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/before-you-post-here-ebike-forum-rules-read-me-1022310.html


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

eFat said:


> I think we have all hear your opinion but again this is not the point here. This forum should be a place to discuss about the various subjects relating to ebikes. Now any thread ends in a war after 3 messages!


I've read a lot of the threads here, morbid curiosity, I suppose, and for the most part the actual discussion threads about brand differences, and distance per charge are pretty much left alone by the non-supporters.

The 'war' as you put it is generally tied to a few vocal members who insist on stirring the pot with inflammatory thread titles and purposely confrontational stances in the OP. They're not interested in actual discussion, they just troll, and heaven help us, non-supporters take the bait every time.

You want to discuss how far you can go on a charge, or how long a tire/chain lasts, or how suspension rebound is different, or how much you paid for new batteries, fine. those threads are all yours.

Just don't claim the victim with thread titles like "America needs more e-bikes" and "How bad is the Hate?...do eBikes spoil you?"

I'm 100% sure I saw a post here on this sub where the poster was bragging about his 3000w hub motor and proudly proclaiming he could just slap a 250w sticker on it and no one would be the wiser as long as he didn't "ride uphill at 10+ mph with his feet off the pedals when others could see him"

You still don't understand why this becomes a problem?


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

Klurejr said:


> There is no reason both sides cannot have a civil discussion about Bikes that have Electric motors in them...


You mean.. motorbikes? It also happens that the flame war ensues when people try to pass them as something they are not.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

abelfonseca said:


> You mean.. motorbikes? It also happens that the flame war ensues when people try to pass them as something they are not.


No, I mean eBikes, specifically Pedal Assist, Please go review the rules for the eBike forum and understand the acceptable definitions.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> Guys, the worst part about what happens over and over is new users come in and ignore well reasoned advice about not poaching, or warnings that they might be poaching, then a flame war happens and people start calling each-other names or derailing threads, and then I have to come in here and delete posts that are inappropriate, or just shut down entire threads.


The threads I've seen are rarely about people "poaching." It's guys coming here to talk about e-bikes, and right away getting **** on by the usual suspects with a thing against e-bikes and those who ride them....


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

AG, what can you expect from individuals who make comments comparing e-MTB (which are specifically defined as non-motorized vehicles in states that have adopted the Class 1,2,3 system) with vehicles that need to be licensed and have insurance? The problem is these trolls should be banned, but the mods all think this forum shouldn't exist, so they solicit and nurture them. AFAICR, there have been several e-positives banned, but no e-negatives. Not surprising at all. I'll probably be next since I think e-negative trolls should be excised.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

Lemonaid said:


> I agree, after following some of the threads some if not all of the e-bike crowd on this forum come off as self gratifying entitled babies.


Just as we there was a healthy debate going on and some good dialogue both ways, someone just had to lower the tone once again. All I can say is show some maturity, if you want to discuss and debate do so, don't just Throw mud around without first joining the conversation in a respectful way


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

leeboh said:


> In regards to Mr Kiwi, might it be helpful to have some regional/country sub forums for e bikes?


Dead right there mate. I can see that there are definitely differences between the issues here in NZ, and those else where. And obviously a difference in tolerance to, and exceptance of e-bikes and their riders.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Ok, I hope I don't regret posting this, let's please just laugh at this and not make a big deal of it. Mods, please delete if this blows up.

Here is an article on electricbike.com that shows it goes both ways. I will say, I don't think MOST of you guys in this thread are this type. This is the kind of ebiker we all fear. Hopefully this was written somewhat tongue in cheek but it's still pretty obvious what this guy is like. Apologies to you ebikers, you probably find this guy an embarrassment. And I think he is talking more about ebikes on the road than off-road.

10 Hedonistic Pleasures of Riding an Electric Bike

Here are some exerts:

Its a real pleasure to ride a motor vehicle in the bike lane legally, all the while passing less fortunate pedal bikers. Oh sorry, I meant "electric bike" not "motor vehicle". _(yes, he said that, not me)_

The uphills are the worst part of riding a regular pedal bike. On an electric bike up hills are cozy and fun. Cherish the gawkers on foot and on pedal bikes as you fly past them. Taunt them if you are a real sicko&#8230; Once you get to the top and admire the pleasant vista, dance a jig with all that extra personal energy and time you have saved. You deserve it; you conquered that hill not with brute force but with superior human ingenuity by choosing an electric bike over pedal power or hiking.

Many electric bike riders have found the thrill in being "law breakers". Either in riding illegally fast bikes, juicing up their bikes on stolen electricity (opportunity charging), or drinking alcohol while riding, many electric bikers have found that there is some weird hedonistic need in most of us to be outlaws and black sheep.

These guys are easy to make fun of, especially when you are blowing past them on a junky looking commuter electric bike wearing street clothes. Why do electric bike guys get so much satisfaction from blowing past lycra guys? We have been called "cheater" one to many times by the lycra bike snobs who tend to treat electric bike riders with disdain. Got to be careful though. Remember many of these lycra guys are athletes, and can kick your ass if you taunt them too much as you whip past them and your battery dies down the road. If you have the physique of most electric bike riders, you will not stand a chance. Also those lycra guys tend to ride in groups&#8230;we call them "biker gangs."

_Well, I guess he did kind of complement us there in the end._


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

Lemonaid said:


> I agree, after following some of the threads some if not all of the e-bike *crowd* *on this forum come off as self gratifying entitled babies.*


Some could say the same with regard to the attitudes of the purists.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Klurejr;13221615)specifically Pedal Assist said:


> I can't help myself but this strikes me as willful ignorance.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

WHALENARD said:


> I can't help myself but this strikes me as willful ignorance.


That's just a term to cloak them with non-threatening nomenclature. It's all part of the effort to make them appear benign, nothing to be concerned with to get them in the proverbial door. Land managers are aware of this slight of hand due in part to forums like this one. So, this forum has served a useful purpose although it probably isn't what they had in mind.


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> That's just a term to cloak them with non-threatening nomenclature. It's all part of the effort to make them appear benign, nothing to be concerned with to get them in the proverbial door. Land managers are aware of this slight of hand due in part to forums like this one. So, this forum has served a useful purpose although it probably isn't what they had in mind.


LOL. You make it sound like some vast conspiracy.


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## LargeMan (May 20, 2017)

Sharp things said:


> Some could say the same with regard to the attitudes of the purists.


Nah, I don't think you understand what a purist cyclist is. It is someone who rides a single speed, rigid, with canti's. Emtb's are great but they are not bicycles, that is the problem people have and the emtb folk just want to keep saying they are another form of mountain biking when they are not.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Sharp things said:


> LOL. You make it sound like some vast conspiracy.


As designed by the industry.


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## Sharp things (Jun 8, 2017)

life behind bars said:


> As designed by the industry.


I can't believe that I'm going to say this, but you may have a good point. Based upon our previous discourse, I never would have thought it could happen.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

Francis, I don't think this forum belongs on MTBR, but here I am posting in it (oops).


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## Cliffdog70 (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm an advocate, I won't apologize, I work with disabled Vets , my Bros wife works with special needs kids, that being said, I advocate for full access of pedal assist ( non-modded, bone stock assist ) as long as there is say a sticker, like a handicap
Plate displayed.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

KiwiPhil said:


> Sorry Mr Pig, but I don't see my statement as a misrepresentation of the facts..


I didn't think you would. eBike advocates never admit the truth of the situation they are in so, for the umpteenth time, I'll try and explain it as simply as I can.



ARandomBiker said:


> I'm 100% sure I saw a post here on this sub where the poster was bragging about his 3000w hub motor and proudly proclaiming he could just slap a 250w sticker on it and no one would be the wiser as long as he didn't "ride uphill at 10+ mph with his feet off the pedals when others could see him"


The guy alluded to in this post, and others like him, exist. Can you accept that?

So here's the deal. High-powered electric bikes should not share space with walkers and pedal cyclists. The disparity in speed is dangerous and the weight and torque of the machines can potentially damage certain trails.

It is inevitable that some selfish people will either modify lower powered eBikes to exceed safe limits, or simply buy powerful bikes, and ride them in inappropriate places.

Those charged with regulating and policing trails, parks and paths cannot be expected to differentiate between a standard, legal, eBike and modified or higher powered bike at the side of the trail/road. As the technology improves, and eBikes more stealthy, this task will only become harder.

As it is necessary to keep powerful machines off of the routes in question, there is no option but to blanket ban all electric bikes from them.

This is the reality of the situation. eBike advocates flatly refuse to admit it and their current stance is not helping them one bit. At the moment they are fiercely calling for eBikes to considered alongside pedal bikes but as time goes by there are going to be an increasing number of incidents which demonstrate the falsehood of this. Flagrant rule braking, accidents, trail damage etc. eBikers will kill people on cycle paths. They will be killed while riding on the road at high speed without a helmet.

It should be obvious to anyone with an ounce of logic that these things are inevitable. It is to the rest of us, but ebike advocates are so blinkered by their own selfish desire to use their machines that they cannot or will not admit it. That's a real shame because without the right approach I can see things going very badly for ebikes in the future. You think the situation is unfair now?! Just use your imagination and think about what lobbyists and bleeding hearts could do with a few nasty ebike headlines in the papers.

It's up to you guys. We can't force you to see sense but the sooner you accept the facts the better. And the pertinent fact is that ebike classification is going to go one way only, and its not in the direction you want.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

Slight over dramatisation don't ya think. The looming doom, death and destruction must keep you up at night.
So I'll explain it again, in layman terms, so maybe you can get the point I'm trying to make
First off, your take on the matter seems to be that all bike riders will mod their bikes into rocket machines. Dream on mate. My Levo retails at $9000nz, and you think I'd be stupid enough to void my warranty after out laying that much coin.....the answer is NO.

If people do modify, adapt, build or manufacture high powered machines that are rated more than the allowable output for the trails they are riding on, then I say throw the book at them.But for people like yourself, to associate all ebikes riders, like me, into the same category as them is nothing but wrong. 
As stated before, and will now highlight it again, I ride a 250w unmodified Specialized Levo Turbo where I am legally entitled to do so. Not breaking the law, not harming anybody, not harming the trails, and just cruising with my mates (on standard bikes).

And again, here the laws state that my 250w Levo is.......you guessed it......a BICYCLE .
So no, my situation isn't unfair, in fact I'm freckn over the moon with it. I get to ride within the boundaries of the law ...yay...... give me a pat on the back..... no stop....what the hell give me two!!!.
I feel sorry for my compatriots who ride ebikes legitimately, and with legitimate reasons over there, if your views are the the norm.

A blanket ban on all ebikes...lol...I'll give you 9.5 out of 10 for your humour


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

KiwiPhil said:


> First off, your take on the matter seems to be that all bike riders will mod their bikes into rocket machines. Dream on mate.


Except that's not what I said. No one is, or ever has said that all eBike users will modify their bikes or use high-powered ones where they are not allowed. But some will, and that's all it will take.



> If people do modify, adapt, build or manufacture high powered machines that are rated more than the allowable output for the trails they are riding on, then I say throw the book at them.


Terrific. And exactly how is a land management employee supposed to look at an eBike on the trail and correctly discern how powerful it is?

All you are doing is proving my point. That eBikes users as a breed are incapable of being honest about the issues they face. And then they are mystified over why virtually the entire established population of mountain bike forums like this one want nothing to do with them...


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## Jeff_G (Oct 22, 2015)

deleted


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KiwiPhil said:


> Slight over dramatisation don't ya think. The looming doom, death and destruction must keep you up at night.
> So I'll explain it again, in layman terms, so maybe you can get the point I'm trying to make
> First off, your take on the matter seems to be that all bike riders will mod their bikes into rocket machines. Dream on mate. My Levo retails at $9000nz, and you think I'd be stupid enough to void my warranty after out laying that much coin.....the answer is NO.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you ride legally and with the approval of land management/trail builders. And though I have not been there, I believe your trails are much, much less traveled than most of the ones I ride. And you are somewhat disabled, I don't really understand how someone who is blind can mountain bike. I'm ok with Cliffdog's and Jeff_G's advocacy.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

KiwiPhil said:


> Reading through some of the anti e-bike rhetoric that gets posted by the same people every time, I stand by my statement. I am only happy for people to have their own views/opinions on the matter, and if you read previous posts I'm happy to debate in a friendly manor, and I agree to disagree with those that hold different views. But when people go into an E-bike forum for the only reason to keep stating the same stuff over and over to stir things up, it does become a little "narrow minded and immature"
> 
> Now, that being said, what's your view on e-bikes MountainBikeR24???????


Walt explains my thoughts more politely than I tend to, so I'll reference his post. Walt appears to be a reasonable and authentic poster.



Walt said:


> I don't hate e-bikes. I've ridden them and I think they are super fun.
> 
> That doesn't mean I think they should be allowed everywhere a normal bike can go, or managed in the same way. Just as there's no point in lumping e-bikes in with 30hp dirtbikes, there's really also no reason to say they're the same as a purely human powered vehicle - and the low power OE models available now probably aren't representative of what they'll evolve into in the future.
> 
> ...


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Walt explains my thoughts more politely than I tend to, so I'll reference his post. Walt appears to be a reasonable and authentic poster.


+1 on what Walt said


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

KiwiPhil said:


> Fos'l ...... yes it does. E-bike are an alternative form of mountain biking. And as this site seems to incorporate all other forms of mountain biking, it is more than appropriate that it includes a e-bike section
> 
> It's just a pity that others don't share the same sediment as you The-Ninth. And good to see a common sense post. But unfortunately there seems to be a few immature people on here that are just trolling.
> I have reasons for riding an electric assist bike, and it's a decision I made to do so. But it seems that we cannot have a discussion between interested e-bike users on this forum, without the rhetoric of those norrow minded opponents of them.


Look at all the topics in the e-bike section. If it wasn't for real mtbers there would be almost no replies by the mopeds. Most of them have less than 10 replies. The threads dealing with mountain bike have way more interested people


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## kmj831 (Apr 4, 2014)

I don't think anything that will hurt the sport of mountain biking, that will hurt land use and access, belongs on a "mountain biking" forum. I also don't piss in my own bathwater. 

But, a forum such as this needs traffic, so if that is the main goal, a sub forum that will help do that is going to win out. I think that's short sighted, but it is what it is. 

I'm sensitive and empathetic to those who can't MTB as well as they used to, or who have an injury etc, but that doesn't mean I'm OK with something that will be used against the MTB community when it comes to land access, wilderness designations, etc. I ride Moto on ST, I ride MTB on ST, I ride horses on ST and I hike on ST... anyone who doesn't recognize that horse and hiker lobby's are going to use e-bikes against us, successfully over time, have their heads in the sand. Nuance pertaining to e-bikes being more moto or more MTB are irrelevant to me. They will hurt the sport.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

sfgiantsfan said:


> Look at all the topics in the e-bike section. If it wasn't for real mtbers there would be almost no replies by the mopeds. Most of them have less than 10 replies. The threads dealing with mountain bike have way more interested people


And that is relevant to if the E-bike forum should be on here? There are other topics with far less, should those be ditched also?? Your comparing a pre existing forum to one that's relatively new which evolves a new off shoot of the sport!! Please let common sense prevail.


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## Capt.Ogg (Jun 5, 2015)

In a few years enduro will be e-nduro, or at least a common category in races. Maybe not so much in states, but in euroland. So yes, expect more traffic in this subforum. And that's what the site owners want.


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## phreeky (Sep 25, 2015)

Capt.Ogg said:


> In a few years enduro will be e-nduro, or at least a common category in races. Maybe not so much in states, but in euroland. So yes, expect more traffic in this subforum. And that's what the site owners want.


Perhaps, but it'd be a stupid category. DH with bikes less good at going downhill just so that you can use an onboard motor as your shuttle?


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

KiwiPhil said:


> And that is relevant to if the E-bike forum should be on here? There are other topics with far less, should those be ditched also?? Your comparing a pre existing forum to one that's relatively new which evolves a new off shoot of the sport!! Please let common sense prevail.


I was referring to the point that said they can't have a discussion about E-bikes without opponents chiming in. You can until you bring up that they are bicycles and should be allowed on MUTs. Look at the other threads. Most very few replies. No one responds to "e-bike meet up, Levo specs, etc"


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I was referring to the point that said they can't have a discussion about E-bikes without opponents chiming in. You can until you bring up that they are bicycles and should be allowed on MUTs. Look at the other threads. Most very few replies. No one responds to "e-bike meet up, Levo specs, etc"


Really !!!!!! Read comment 4 on this thread. 
FACT !!!!!! the first person to bring up the debate on what they are was an anti e-biker who typically called it a MOTORBIKE.
Again, of course it will take time for these forums to have greater uptake from e-bike riders. There's less of us, Its expensive and its not everyone's cup of tea! but to exclude it on those grounds is silly.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

KiwiPhil said:


> but to exclude it on those grounds is silly.











It's not silly if that person stands by their convictions and won't accept ebikes with open arms.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

Cornfield said:


> View attachment 1143823
> 
> 
> It's not silly if that person stands by their convictions and won't accept ebikes with open arms.


Ya know, modern power steering is electric assist. So this could very well be his e-pinion.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

Cornfield said:


> View attachment 1143823
> 
> 
> It's not silly if that person stands by their convictions and won't accept ebikes with open arms.


 Well you got that one wrong!!!! What I said, was it was silly to exclude the E-Bike section. Which is what the topic is !!! And if you read, and took in my post, rather than quoting a small portion, you'd see my statement that is isn't "everyones cup of tea".

Nice response there chuckha62.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Cornfield said:


> View attachment 1143823
> 
> 
> It's not silly if that person stands by their convictions and won't accept ebikes with open arms.


Where's the dame? I want to see the rack.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Phil, the vast majority of people here are going to stick to the literal definition of a bicycle, it is solely powered by the rider. A mountain bike is a bicycle for riding off road, so it is still solely powered by the rider. No matter how much you argue, the majority of people on this forum are not going to agree that an ebike is a bicycle nor that riding one on trails is mountain biking. If you ride an ebike and it is legal where you ride and cool with the land managers, which it sounds like it is, that's fine with me and probably most everyone else here. But your continued arguing that a bike with a motor should not be considered to be a bike with a motor is not going to get your anywhere.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Heres a point for everyone that says an ebike and a bicycle are the same because it has pedals and such.

Going to play devils advocate here but these points are facts, if your an ebike advocate and disagree, you're a hypocrite.

Based on your reasoning, means that gas powered "bicycles" should also be treated the same as bicycles.

There is NO DIFFERENCE:

Gas or electric it still has a motor.

Gas is the fuel source used that is used to power the the motor on a coverted bike.

Lithium batteries are the fuel source used to power the motor for an ebike.

The only difference at this point is noise.

Which means all these ebike riders want gas powered bicycles to have rights to non-motorized trails.

Anyway, the doom and gloom isnt some fantasy. Its already starting as Walt and others have pointed out from experience.

As i stated before, there is no reason for this sub no to be here but ive already encountered threads that dont belong. Latest one i can remember was trying to sort out a throttle control.

Ya there is plenty here that arent going to mod. But in the US especially, things like that will be a problem because too many people with money and no sense or respect. And if you check a lot of both sides of this debate, its here in the states because too many know and see the mentality daily. Just a sad truth.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

KiwiPhil said:


> Well you got that one wrong!!!! What I said, was it was silly to exclude the E-Bike section. Which is what the topic is !!! And if you read, and took in my post, rather than quoting a small portion, you'd see my statement that is isn't "everyones cup of tea".
> 
> Nice response there chuckha62.


If the vast majority of mtbr members don't support mountain mopeds then why should they support a sub-forum for them?

So I wasn't totally wrong... in their eyes an ebike forum should be excluded based on them being motorized.

I personally enjoy the discussions and find them very interesting, so I don't mind the forum at all.

I already miss LTZ, lol!


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

Chazpat, yip I fully understand where you are coming from. But I would state that I only call them as what they are, to me, and that's an E-Bike.
What I feel needs to happen, is for there to be a distinct separation between Pedal Assist E-bikes and those that are not. For instance, those that refer to all e-bikes as motor bikes constantly, in my view, are wrong. To say that a pedal assist bike, like my Specialized Levo, more of a motorbike than a mountain bike, is wrong. An electric motorbike is a totally different kettle of fish, and not what I refer to when I state E-bike.

Rakc Ind, I don't see myself as hypocrite, even the Government here classifies what I ride as a bicycle.

But lets play ..... spot the bikes that are alike .......

And please don't catagorise the pedal assist bike in the photo, with the bottom two. Call it what it is, a pedal assist E-bike.....


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

What happened to LTZ? I generally disagreed with him, but he was usually polite and was good with the banter for the most part.


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

KiwiPhil said:


> Chazpat, yip I fully understand where you are coming from. But I would state that I only call them as what they are, to me, and that's an E-Bike.
> What I feel needs to happen, is for there to be a distinct separation between Pedal Assist E-bikes and those that are not. For instance, those that refer to all e-bikes as motor bikes constantly, in my view, are wrong. To say that a pedal assist bike, like my Specialized Levo, more of a motorbike than a mountain bike, is wrong. An electric motorbike is a totally different kettle of fish, and not what I refer to when I state E-bike.
> 
> Rakc Ind, I don't see myself as hypocrite, even the Government here classifies what I ride as a bicycle.
> ...


Well, three have motors and one doesn't. Pretty straight forward.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KiwiPhil said:


> Rakc Ind, I don't see myself as hypocrite, even the Government here classifies what I ride as a bicycle.


I believe you also said the government classifies you as blind, yet I bet you are reading this.


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

chuckha62 said:


> What happened to LTZ? I generally disagreed with him, but he was usually polite and was good with the banter for the most part.


The mods decided he didn't belong on mtbr I guess. He did have a habit of name calling, which I thought was amusing.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

Cornfield said:


> If the vast majority of mtbr members don't support mountain mopeds then why should they support a sub-forum for them?


So again, there are other sub-forums with less traffic than the E-bike thread, fact, and the "vast majority" of mtbr members don't support those either, that logic implies that they should be deleted as well.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

chuckha62 said:


> What happened to LTZ? I generally disagreed with him, but he was usually polite and was good with the banter for the most part.


You're joking, right?


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

KiwiPhil said:


> So again, there are other sub-forums with less traffic than the E-bike thread, fact, and the "vast majority" of mtbr members don't support those either, that logic implies that they should be deleted as well.


Some members would agree with that logic, but none of those other sub-forums discuss motorized bicycles, just this one.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Like I said at the beginning; let the e-negatives grow a pair (some of them could take spelling lessons too) and tell the owner of the forum to delete e-bikes. That should be an enlightening experience for them. By definition, he owns the forum; ergo this sub-forum belongs here. Anyone who doesn't like it, tough.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

fos'l said:


> Like I said at the beginning; let the e-negatives grow a pair (some of them could take spelling lessons too) and tell the owner of the forum to delete e-bikes. That should be an enlightening experience for them. By definition, he owns the forum; ergo this sub-forum belongs here. Anyone who doesn't like it, tough.


And?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Also, for those who compare ICE and e-bikes, there's a big difference in CA and states that have adopted the Class 1, 2 & 3 designation. The e-bikes are not classified as motorized like ICE vehicles. It'll be interesting when the owner gets tired of all the whining and whimpering from the e-negatives and takes decisive steps. Expect some action now that he's back from Europe. Bottom line: guess none of the e-negatives grew a pair.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

KiwiPhil said:


> Chazpat, yip I fully understand where you are coming from. But I would state that I only call them as what they are, to me, and that's an E-Bike.
> What I feel needs to happen, is for there to be a distinct separation between Pedal Assist E-bikes and those that are not. For instance, those that refer to all e-bikes as motor bikes constantly, in my view, are wrong. To say that a pedal assist bike, like my Specialized Levo, more of a motorbike than a mountain bike, is wrong. An electric motorbike is a totally different kettle of fish, and not what I refer to when I state E-bike.
> 
> Rakc Ind, I don't see myself as hypocrite, even the Government here classifies what I ride as a bicycle.
> ...


Kiwi, it seems you actually live under a rock or something. And you live in a different, very tiny country where problems being discussed here are almost non existent. You are refusing to understand the vast majority of the world doesnt have that luxury. Just read all the other posts...

I am NOT AGAINST pedal assist at all. Read my previous posts here. My only issue is the people out there that are already causing problems. I would love to see those that cant ride like we can use pedal assist to come and ride with us. In its stock form as its intended.

But regardless of any excuse anyone tries to make, ebikes have a MOTOR regardless of exactly how it provides power to the drive wheel, it still does.

And again, the "it has pedals" isnt a valid arguement unless you include bicycles with gas coversions.

All have pedals an motors and "assist" pedalling in some way. Here ebikes have to prove they are not a battery powered version of the pics below. And with people already modifying them and such, thats a battle that ebike advocates may never win.









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

And heres one more, rating at 50mph on flat ground:

This why regular riders are getting ticked off. Its not the pedal assist bikes, its stuff like the below image that pedal assist bikes are becoming.









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

chazpat said:


> I believe you also said the government classifies you as blind, yet I bet you are reading this.


Yip, Legally blind equates to a level of blindness where we receive government funding for ongoing support and costs for treatment. Luckily this funding allows me to get the whiz bag stuff that gets me through. Just like e-bikes and electric motor bikes, theres a difference between being legally blind, and totally blind ;-)


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## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

fos'l said:


> tell the owner of the forum to delete e-bikes.


I don't think he has the power to do that, lol!


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## eFat (Jun 14, 2017)

RAKC Ind said:


> And heres one more, rating at 50mph on flat ground:


And you honestly don't see the difference with a 250 W pedal assist mountain bike and those?

Try one and come back with an educated opinion.


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## the-ninth (Nov 1, 2013)

For me the sub-forum here mainly makes sense because the people who buy and ride E-MTBs come from the crowd of mountain bikers. We share many components and apparel, to a large extend we share the same skills and at least where I ride we share the same trails. Especially when it comes to riding downhill I see no real difference, only for uphills the E-MTBs may ride some trails that are prohibitive for us "normal" mountain bikers.

Here in Austria the vast majority of trails are free only for hikers and explicitly prohibit any kind of mechanical transport, which includes "normal" mountain bikes. So us and E-MTBs poach alike and need to take special care of other trail users.

And yes, we also fear that E-MTBs will increase trail use and thus may increase conflicts with land owners and other trail users. But I think they are here to stay and simply have to be included in the resolution of these trail-use conflicts. Trying to ignore them will not solve anything.

Especially interesting I see the rise of E-MTBs in the skiing resorts. They struggle with declining snow conditions in winter and E-MTBs allow them to bring in more summer tourists to compensate. Since for many regions in the Alps and Dolomites tourism is crucial I think that is a good thing. Without the E-MTBs the climbs of 1000+ metres would simply not be possible for the majority of people. And the fitter ones could now enjoy 2000-3000 metres of ascends and descends per day.


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

OMG, what a bunch of panty-waists on both sides!

CONVINCING PEDAL PUSHERS THAT EBIKING IS THE SAME THING IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

eBikers complaining about pedal-pushers complaining about the existence of their sub, while they continuously troll pedal pushers. THAT'S NOT HOW ANY OF THIS WORKS!

Pedal-pushers that can't stand the perpetuation of bad myths about mountain biking (from other user groups) using non-facts to exclude the use of eBikes in the woods... HOW EMBARRASSING!

EVERYBODY NEEDS TO GROW UP A BIT AND FACE THE FACTS.

Pedal pushers... eBiking is here for good, unless the price of batteries skyrockets. No, I don't want them on my trails either, but how about being constructive instead of destructive towards their cause? Read on in the next paragraph and see if you can come up with any ideas that can help eBikers in their desire for single track that's not torn up by those dangerous motorcycles and ATV's

eBikers... It's time to face the facts. You have motors, and are never going to be classed with pedal pushers, but this does not mean we must be sworn enemies. There can be benefits gained from working with us to achieve your goals (and ours), but you have got to set out on your own path, and this means you will probably have to build a lot of your own trail. The time of piggy-backing off of and trying to gain access to biking trails is over. Though you might be just slightly faster than the rest of us, you can also be significantly heavier, and this isn't a risk that land managers will permit, especially when a trail is open to hikers, which is the majority of biking trails. We are already at risk of trail loss in many places because of pedal pushers ignoring the rules. Our uphill battle has been a long and slow one, do you really want to turn this into a losing battle for both of us?


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

eFat said:


> And you honestly don't see the difference with a 250 W pedal assist mountain bike and those?
> 
> Try one and come back with an educated opinion.


You sometimes wonder why you waste ya breath aye efat!!
Comparing the likes of a Specialized Levo Turbo with those!! Ya have to laugh.
He's just posted a photo of a modified mountain bike in one of those posts, with a motor stuck above it's wheel lol. Now, should we ban all mountain bikes because someone may modify them!!!!
And he thinks I live under a rock, even funnier. Man you've got to love the humour of some people.
And the says that he would love to see people riding pedal assists in stock form, which is what we've be saying all along.

Anyway.....
I'm just back from a ride with a conventional Mtb rider. I was telling him that some on this site call my bike a motorbike. He laughed his tits off !! He couldn't believe how people could not see it for what it is, a pedal assist e-bike........


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KiwiPhil said:


> Yip, Legally blind equates to a level of blindness where we receive government funding for ongoing support and costs for treatment. Luckily this funding allows me to get the whiz bag stuff that gets me through. Just like e-bikes and electric motor bikes, theres a difference between being legally blind, and totally blind ;-)


And that is my point, there is a difference between what New Zealand has defined as legally bicycle and an actual bicycle. Legally blind does not equal blind; legally bicycle does not equal bicycle.

Do you think teams will be showing up with a pedal assist ebike for XC racing, road racing and track racing at future Olympics because an ebike is a bicycle?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KiwiPhil said:


> Just like e-bikes and electric motor bikes, theres a difference between being legally blind, and totally blind ;-)


I've been saying that all along, things that are obviously different can be the same in the eyes of the law. Any decent lawyer can change stop to mean go


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

KiwiPhil said:


> Anyway.....
> I'm just back from a ride with a conventional Mtb rider. I was telling him that some on this site call my bike a motorbike. laughed his tits off !! He couldn't believe how people could not see it for what it is, a pedal assist e-bike........


And some people here in the U.S. still believe that the earth is flat and chocolate milk comes from brown cows.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KiwiPhil said:


> He laughed his tits off !! He couldn't believe how people could not see it for what it is, a pedal assist e-bike........


I agree, I wish everyone could see them for what they are.

Why pedal assist? Why not motor assist?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

KiwiPhil said:


> Call it what it is, a pedal assist E-bike.....


This is all that many mountain bikers are asking.

Call it a "pedal assist e-bike". 
DON'T call it a "mountain bike".

Really not so hard.

Many problems solved.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> This is all that many mountain bikers are asking.
> 
> Call it a "pedal assist e-bike".
> DON'T call it a "mountain bike".
> ...


If anyone bothered to read the rules for this sub-forum that was made clear a long time ago....


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## Impetus (Aug 10, 2014)

eFat said:


> And you honestly don't see the difference with a 250 W pedal assist mountain bike and those?
> 
> Try one and come back with an educated opinion.


You just don't get it, or are being intentionally obtuse. The point absolutely *IS* that the average hiker, runner, equestrian, and (most importantly) land managers making decisions about access *CANNOT TELL THE DIFFERENCE* between that thing and a legal Levo.

When some a-hole comes screaming down the trail on that thing, it looks like an ebike, but isn't really a *legal* ebike, and it looks bad.

Or even worse, it looks like a MOUNTAIN BIKE, and now it threatens access for ALL BIKES.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

How mountain bikers see Ebikes.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

KJ, very simple ban those that call e-MTB's, MTB's and those who call them motorcycles or mopeds. Watch the language change immediately. Who gives a crap whether "purists" 
(around my way many of them poach trails all the time) consider e-MTB's as a sub-class of MTB's or not. We all agreed a long time ago they're different. Why isn't that stated somewhere so we don't go over it again 10 times a day? By the way SHM, glad to "see" you again. Nice to have someone with a brain and integrity back. Wish you could impart those attributes to others (probably me too).


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

chazpat said:


> You're joking, right?


A little, I guess.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

eFat said:


> And you honestly don't see the difference with a 250 W pedal assist mountain bike and those?
> 
> Try one and come back with an educated opinion.


Actually you need to learn to read before posting, i was playing devils advocate.

Secondly by many of the ebike advocates posting here their reasoning why ebikes should be allowed means all those bikes should be allowed as well because they have pedals.

Much of what im seeing here is those not in the states loosing their minds over something that has almost nothing to do with them at this point. They dont have the problems like are being expressed here in the US. So they just try to cram their pro ebike banter down everyones throats without an ounce of common sense to the fact here is different than there.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

fos'l said:


> KJ, very simple ban those that call e-MTB's, MTB's and those who call them motorcycles or mopeds. Watch the language change immediately. Who gives a crap whether "purists"
> (around my way many of them poach trails all the time) consider e-MTB's as a sub-class of MTB's or not. We all agreed a long time ago they're different. Why isn't that stated somewhere so we don't go over it again 10 times a day? By the way SHM, glad to "see" you again.


Hey bud!

Hopefully someday common sense prevails and the 'purists' and those who feel that any suggestion that a motor is actually a motor = "hate" will STFU and let the adults get things worked out.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

fos'l said:


> KJ, very simple ban those that call e-MTB's, MTB's and those who call them motorcycles or mopeds. Watch the language change immediately. Who gives a crap whether "purists"
> (around my way many of them poach trails all the time) consider e-MTB's as a sub-class of MTB's or not. We all agreed a long time ago they're different. Why isn't that stated somewhere so we don't go over it again 10 times a day? By the way SHM, glad to "see" you again. Nice to have someone with a brain and integrity back. Wish you could impart those attributes to others (probably me too).


Per the guidelines:

MoPed - A Motorcycle or Electric Bicycle that also happens to have pedals on it.

So if someone calls e-MTB's (sic) a moped, they are following the guidelines and should not be banned, right? I understand that the term "moped" is disliked by ebikers due to when they were first popular back in the '80s, but the term was merely for a new class of vehicle, one that combined a pedal bike with a motor. Obviously modern day ebikes are much, much different than the old mopeds, being battery powered rather than gas and with emtbs, using suspension, etc. Maybe we should call them PedMos and start fresh?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

My best highschool friend and myself fitted a honda cr80 engine to a moped when we were like 15. Thing was awesome and I rode it everywhere. One day I was showing off for the ladies at the local hang out (like a 7eleven or something) rippin wheelies off a curb when the forks seperated. The lowers came completely off from the uppers mid wheelie launching off a curb. Needless to say when I came down it sent me flying off like a rag doll. I don't think any of the chicks were impressed but all my mates got a laugh of a lifetime.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

The usual inane chatter: the difference between a moped and an e-MTB is a moped requires a license and insurance. Why don't you try and be educated before opening your trap.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

The usual inane chatter: the difference between a moped and an e-MTB is a moped requires a license and insurance. Also, as stated many times before, in CA and those states which have the "Class" system (number growing rapidly), Class 1 & 2 e-bikes are permitted on bike paths and Class 3 in bike lanes contiguous to a roadway.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

RAKC Ind said:


> Much of what im seeing here is those not in the states loosing their minds over something that has almost nothing to do with them at this point. They dont have the problems like are being expressed here in the US. So they just try to cram their pro ebike banter down everyones throats without an ounce of common sense to the fact here is different than there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


So, this is a US only website???
If a moderator can confirm that, then I'll happily pi$$ off. But nowhere I have seen does it say that it's a exclusive forum for the US only.
And don't forget, if you don't want the pro ebikes banter, don't come into the ebikes forum........it's that easy.
And you say I have no common sense lol, get a grip.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

fos'l said:


> The usual inane chatter: the difference between a moped and an e-MTB is a moped requires a license and insurance. Also, as stated many times before, in CA and those states which have the "Class" system (number growing rapidly), Class 1 & 2 e-bikes are permitted on bike paths and Class 3 in bike lanes contiguous to a roadway.


You must be citing local ordinances because that is most certainly not the case everywhere. You may want to stop posting it like it applies to everyone/everywhere because it most certainly does not. It makes you appear to have some subversive agenda as well when you continuously and repeatedly post mis-information. Speaking of "inane".


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

life behind bars said:


> You must be citing local ordinances because that is most certainly not the case everywhere. You may want to stop posting it like it applies to everyone/everywhere because it most certainly does not.


Ummm...I'm pretty sure that's why he distinctly included "in CA and those states which have the "Class" system" in his post.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ummm...I'm pretty sure that's why he distinctly included "in CA and those states which have the "Class" system" in his post.


Yet he continues it use it as an countrywide example, the emotorbike cloak and diversion.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

fos'l said:


> The usual inane chatter: the difference between a moped and an e-MTB is a moped requires a license and insurance. Also, as stated many times before, in CA and those states which have the "Class" system (number growing rapidly), Class 1 & 2 e-bikes are permitted on bike paths and Class 3 in bike lanes contiguous to a roadway.


The East Bay Regional Park District maintains an extensive network of paved trails. These trails tend to be flat with many entrance and exit points and are perfect for road bikes, roller blades, skateboards, and other wheeled devices operated by human power. With the exception of wheelchairs and mobility vehicles, motorized or electric-powered scooters, bikes or other motorized vehicles are prohibited.

This is in California. There are plenty of places around the world and even in the US where Ebikes are permitted. I like ebikes and think that they are a great and useful for transportation and recreation.

Most non users of ebike don't and can't differentiate between class 1 and 3. It's also easy to hack a class 1 bike for extra speed.

Where trail access is contentious, like the bay area of California ebikes represent a major shift in ideology. Ebike regardless of class are not permitted and are NOT mountain bikes. Whether this is right or wrong, is not up to me.

Gaining access needs to be a separate campaign from human power recreation.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

fos'l said:


> The usual inane chatter: the difference between a moped and an e-MTB is a moped requires a license and insurance. Why don't you try and be educated before opening your trap.


Have you read the forum guidelines? I have. Are you following them? I am.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

chazpat said:


> Have you read the forum guidelines? I have. Are you following them? I am.


I wouldn't call bring up and debating MY health issues as staying to the forum guidelines chazpat !!!!! maybe another read would help you out.

It goes both ways mate


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I think this forum has a place, just as I think eBikes have a place. Like it or not, they're here and being pushed by the industry. 

Should they be 100% equal to human powered ONLY bikes? Not in my opinion. I still think they're cool as hell, though. Disregarding the fact that a motor makes it different is silly. It's just as silly as equating that the motor is no different than adding multiple gears or adding suspension. They're both silly, false equivalents.

Proponents should just own the obvious differences from a bicycle and rally their cause from there to lobby for access.


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## abelfonseca (Dec 26, 2011)

alexbn921 said:


> How mountain bikers see Ebikes.


A picture is worth a thousand words... or a million.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

KiwiPhil said:


> I wouldn't call bring up and debating MY health issues as staying to the forum guidelines chazpat !!!!! maybe another read would help you out.
> 
> It goes both ways mate


I politely asked if you would share your health issues (after you mentioned them as a reason you ride an ebike) if you were comfortable doing so and you did. I have not "debated" your issues, I merely pointed out that government legal definitions are not necessarily the same as real world definitions as you have repeatedly said that an ebike is a bicycle because the government says so. I have tried to be polite to you, I have said several times that I do not have a problem with you riding your ebike on your trails in New Zealand since you have indicated that you are riding on legal trails, have the blessing of the land management and that you have health issues. I don't think I have gone outside of forum guidelines. If I have insulted or embarrassed you, I do apologize.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

fos'l said:


> The usual inane chatter: the difference between a moped and an e-MTB is a moped requires a license and insurance. Also, as stated many times before, in CA and those states which have the "Class" system (number growing rapidly), Class 1 & 2 e-bikes are permitted on bike paths and Class 3 in bike lanes contiguous to a roadway.


This is from the California DMV website. Honestly, am I missing something?









https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/motorcycles/motorcycles


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

KiwiPhil said:


> So, this is a US only website???
> If a moderator can confirm that, then I'll happily pi$$ off. But nowhere I have seen does it say that it's a exclusive forum for the US only.
> And don't forget, if you don't want the pro ebikes banter, don't come into the ebikes forum........it's that easy.
> And you say I have no common sense lol, get a grip.


This site is certainly open to anyone accross the world to post in, but if you look at the regional sections of the site you will see that the specific area's are US States and the more general area's are other countries... so it is US centric. When discussing access issues it is very helpful to discuss exactly where you are speaking about.



fos'l said:


> The usual inane chatter: the difference between a moped and an e-MTB is a moped requires a license and insurance. Why don't you try and be educated before opening your trap.


I will add that to the definition, good point on the license and registration bit.


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## #1ORBUST (Sep 13, 2005)

chazpat said:


> This is from the California DMV website. Honestly, am I missing something?
> 
> View attachment 1143933
> 
> ...


What's your question?

My buddy has a home convert bike but has a lawn mower engine.

He got pulled over in CA in a city bike lane by the popo and ticked for going to fast in a bike lane.

That was the only ticket he got. We all have m1 licenses anyway but he said it didn't matter.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

#1ORBUST said:


> What's your question?
> 
> My buddy has a home convert bike but has a lawn mower engine.
> 
> ...





fos'l said:


> The usual inane chatter: the difference between a moped and an e-MTB is a moped requires a license and insurance. Also, as stated many times before, in CA and those states which have the "Class" system (number growing rapidly), Class 1 & 2 e-bikes are permitted on bike paths and Class 3 in bike lanes contiguous to a roadway.


fos'l is stating that the difference between a moped and an eMTB is a moped requires a license and insurance, this seems to be that he's trying to say that an ebike is not a moped. But from what I posted from the California DMV (where I believe fos'l lives), it appears that they classify an eMTB (since it is a form of "motorized bicycle" by their definition) as a type of moped, just exempt from licensing, etc.

Now granted, I have gone into government definitions, however, that appears to be what fos'l was going by.


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## KiwiPhil (Jun 2, 2008)

chazpat said:


> . If I have insulted or embarrassed you, I do apologize.


 No mate, I'm not embarrassed or insulted, but just making the point that it is easy to fall outside the guidelines by simply going off topic, i.e. should the e-bike sub forum be here. I wouldn't have posted my health issues if I wasn't happy to discuss it, or my reasoning for riding an E-bike, so maybe this should in a different topic of why people choose to ride them. So all good buddy.

I just think that without forums like this, where we can have a healthy debate, tensions could potentially grow more between the different groups. But I agree with the guidelines, and hope that these debates can continue in a good way, but within the relevant topic, otherwise its going to get further out of hand. But I also think that there needs to be distinction between which type of E-bike we are debating.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

chazpat said:


> fos'l is stating that the difference between a moped and an eMTB is a moped requires a license and insurance, this seems to be that he's trying to say that an ebike is not a moped. But from what I posted from the California DMV (where I believe fos'l lives), it appears that they classify an eMTB (since it is a form of "motorized bicycle" by their definition) as a type of moped, just exempt from licensing, etc.
> 
> Now granted, I have gone into government definitions, however, that appears to be what fos'l was going by.


Except you're wrong. I am a big proponent of ebikes on the road and have worked for my States office of recreation management, specifically for bicycle access.

California is one of several states that have classified ebikes as bicycles. The reason being is to get around registration, licensing and insurance issues. Because...alternative transportation and poor people.

Every person has the privilege of using public roadways. At a minimum, you can walk. You cannot be denied this right (it falls under pursuit of happiness and freedom of movement. True story). Anyway, some people can only afford a bike, or at most an ebike. Bicycles are considered vehicles as far as traffic laws go, with some stipulations, but then several States have said that even though they are motorized, they will not add additional expense to them and so they are regulated as bicycles. I may be talking in circles here and it can be confusing. This keeps them cheaper and within the grasp of people who cannot afford a car. People shouldn't be penalized in life if they can't afford a car. I agree with these laws.

Ok, so now with that said, here's the rub. These laws fall under the motor vehicle code. The laws typically state that ebikes can be ridden on roads, paths and trails. See that...trails. Unfortunately it does NOT mean trails as the ebikers would like to believe. It means trails that you would commute on, another name for a paved path. It was lawyer speak added so that no paths would be excluded. We have several "trails" by name in Utah that are multi-use paved paths. These cannot exclude ebikes.

Just like any other law though, some places it can be interpreted differently. Some paths still exclude ebikes because they may cross private land or because a city won't allow it. That or they put a speed limit.

Hope this helps you all understand some States ebike access laws.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Silentfoe said:


> Except you're wrong. I am a big proponent of ebikes on the road and have worked for my States office of recreation management, specifically for bicycle access.
> 
> California is one of several states that have classified ebikes as bicycles. The reason being is to get around registration, licensing and insurance issues. Because...alternative transportation and poor people.
> 
> ...


So where am I wrong? From that I posted from the Cali DMV, it appears that the state of California considers an ebike to be a form of moped, with certain exemptions made. So I guess California has declared ebikes to be both bicycles and mopeds, they refer to them as "electric bicycles" in what I posted.


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Fair enough. Also look up their laws for a bicycle in the motor vehicle code.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## KK89 (May 21, 2013)

There really should be completely separate forum emtbr for ebikes. Just because of the people who do not approve them and they keep harrasing the threads where intelligent people are trying to discuss about things they are interested in.

I’ve always liked mtbr for the smart people that post here but I really had not read the e-bikes section before. This really reminds me of all finnish forums where people do nothing but argue and pick on very small things. Even grammar. 

So narrow minded.. I am disappointed in you.

Myself, I love everything about bicycles.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Mr Pig said:


> You probably don't understand how offensive that comment is. I hope you don't anyway.
> 
> An infestation implies a large influx of unwelcome creatures which disrupts the normal balance of an environment. In this instance, the 'ehaters' to whom you refer are not disruptive newcomers. We are the majority of forum users who have spent years developing and enriching this forum. If any user-group could be described as an infestation, it could only be e-bike advocates.
> 
> You may have the support of the site owner but understand that, among the majority of the forum users, you are not welcome and not wanted. If it ever comes down to you or us, and you are gifted the win, this will be a pretty small forum.


I think that's what us real mountain bikers should do. I'm considering purchasing emtbr.com. I would not allow e-ped threads. Any supporters?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I think that's what us real mountain bikers should do. I'm considering purchasing emtbr.com. I would not allow e-ped threads. Any supporters?


You would seriously start your own forum just for that?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I think that's what us real mountain bikers should do. I'm considering purchasing emtbr.com. I would not allow e-ped threads. Any supporters?


 What's an e ped? Electric walker?


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Mr Pig said:


> You would seriously start your own forum just for that?


No. Unless it made money. Then I'd sell out to the e-companies.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

leeboh said:


> What's an e ped? Electric walker?


One of these...

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Razor-Po...75035&wl11=online&wl12=52538288&wl13=&veh=sem


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> No. Unless it made money. Then I'd sell out to the e-companies.


Too late, been done.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Yes KK89, I am a "hater" of ebikes on singletrack mountain bike trails. I'm assuming you meant that as an insult, but that is a very astute observation.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Yes KK89, I am a "hater".


He neg-reped me, so I guess hate is ok when you're the one dishing it out?


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

KK89 said:


> Just because of the people who do not approve them and they keep harrasing the threads where intelligent people are trying to discuss about things they are interested in.


If you see a post where a user is harassing another user for discussing eBikes, please use the report function so the moderators can deal with it.

Simply expressing a differing opinion on a subject is not harassment.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> If you see a post where a user is harassing another user for discussing eBikes, please use the report function so the moderators can deal with it.
> 
> Simply expressing a differing opinion on a subject is not harassment.


It is in e-world....


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## EMTB Love (Feb 4, 2018)

Looks like many people's wants have been answered:

http://www.emtbr.com


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

EMTB Love said:


> Looks like many people's wants have been answered


Great. Bye :0)


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## Mackerel_Fillet (May 1, 2016)

Mr Pig said:


> Great. Bye :0)


You love it Mr Pig  Cant keep you off this section!


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

EMTB Love said:


> Looks like many people's wants have been answered:
> 
> http://www.emtbr.com


Do they have a Purist forum?


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## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

Absolutely it belongs here. It's fun being part of a movement. Bigots always try to shout down things that they fear because they don't understand them. Ask yourself why anyone cares about what the guy on the trail ahead or behind them is riding. Is it OK for trails to be shared by 10 year-olds and 60 year-olds? People with real jobs and people who focus on cycling (thats a dig at my pro friends)? People on $100 bikes and $20,000 bikes? Fit and fat? Conservative or dare-devil? All of those factors make each rider unique. How does knowing that a person climbed a hill faster than you did diminish your experience? It's a pretty meaningless thing to base your self-worth upon. What father wouldn't enjoy keeping up with his son? What friend wouldn't want to allow a "golf handicap" that gets a good friend out on the trails with him? You have to be a bit of a sociopath to have a visceral reaction against a bike like a Levo sharing the trails with you. I suspect that the most vociferous feel that they own the trails because of the sweat equity they have put into access and maintenance. You don't. In the end, reason will prevail. An aging population coupled with technological advancements will enhance the experience of all mountain bikers. The future is bright. We will all look back on this and laugh one day.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> Absolutely it belongs here. It's fun being part of a movement. Bigots always try to shout down things that they fear because they don't understand them. Ask yourself why anyone cares about what the guy on the trail ahead or behind them is riding. Is it OK for trails to be shared by 10 year-olds and 60 year-olds? People with real jobs and people who focus on cycling (thats a dig at my pro friends)? People on $100 bikes and $20,000 bikes? Fit and fat? Conservative or dare-devil? All of those factors make each rider unique. How does knowing that a person climbed a hill faster than you did diminish your experience? It's a pretty meaningless thing to base your self-worth upon. What father wouldn't enjoy keeping up with his son? What friend wouldn't want to allow a "golf handicap" that gets a good friend out on the trails with him? You have to be a bit of a sociopath to have a visceral reaction against a bike like a Levo sharing the trails with you. I suspect that the most vociferous feel that they own the trails because of the sweat equity they have put into access and maintenance. You don't. In the end, reason will prevail. An aging population coupled with technological advancements will enhance the experience of all mountain bikers. The future is bright. We will all look back on this and laugh one day.


 Bikes don't have motors, start there.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

leeboh said:


> Bikes don't have motors, start there.


That's why they're called ebikes, derrr...


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## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

leeboh said:


> Bikes don't have motors, start there.


In 2018, some of them actually do. Non-white people are considered human. Women are allowed to vote. Good luck clinging to the past.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> In 2018, some of them actually do. Non-white people are considered human. Women are allowed to vote. Good luck clinging to the past.


E-bikes have motors.
Mountain bikes do not.

If you can't work within those sensible guidelines as posted, please find somewhere else to discuss e-bikes.


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> In 2018, some of them actually do. Non-white people are considered human. Women are allowed to vote. Good luck clinging to the past.


Lumping people who think ebikes have motors in beside racists and sexists is fairly offensive. It was 'bigot' in the last post. You totally deserve your red squares and I wouldn't hold out much hope of going green any time soon if I were you. I'm sorry that you are not willing to understand the genuine concerns people have over the possible misuse of eBikes but trying to character assassinate everyone who disagrees with you isn't going to win you any friends or help win your case.


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## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

Mr Pig said:


> Lumping people who think ebikes have motors in beside racists and sexists is fairly offensive. It was 'bigot' in the last post. You totally deserve your red squares and I wouldn't hold out much hope of going green any time soon if I were you. I'm sorry that you are not willing to understand the genuine concerns people have over the possible misuse of eBikes but trying to character assassinate everyone who disagrees with you isn't going to win you any friends or help win your case.


I don't expect any friends here. I went red the first time I posted about training using an eBike. It has been downhill from there. This place is a joke, and you know it. A bizarre place where petty, dishonest people gather to cast aspersions on folks that they should be allied with. Genuine concern about the misuse of eBikes is not what 90 percent of the posts on this subforum resemble by any stretch of the imagination.


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## Bjorn2Ride (Apr 4, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> E-bikes have motors.
> Mountain bikes do not.
> 
> If you can't work within those sensible guidelines as posted, please find somewhere else to discuss e-bikes.


So referring to a Specialized Levo as a Mountain Bike on this MTBR forum gets you, what, banned? Because a Specialized Levo isn't a Mountain Bike? News flash. Its a Mountain Bike. It's also an eBike, of course. Who said it wasn't ? Saying "bikes don't have motors" has nothing to do with my reply about the OP question. If that's the case, then your quarrel is with the owners of this site. Is this not a "bike website"? Why do you waste time going over this nonsense over and over again? What is the point?


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## Mr Pig (Jun 25, 2008)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> This place is a joke, and you know it. A bizarre place where petty, dishonest people gather to cast aspersions on folks that they should be allied with.


I'm afraid I disagree. This forum is not at all like you suggest, but what would you know anyway? You talk about being 'allied' with other mountain bikers but I notice that you have not posted about anything other than eBike advocacy, not even once! It's like standing in your hotel room closet for a week and saying 'Spain sucks'.

You are here for purely selfish reasons and we see through you. If you think the place is a joke, leave.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

We should not ally ourselves with the motorized contingent, that only benefits them with no plus side for mountain bikers.


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## mileslong (Aug 20, 2016)

life behind bars said:


> We should not ally ourselves with the motorized contingent, that only benefits them with no plus side for mountain bikers.


^^^^^Yea, what he said!^^^^^


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Bjorn2Ride said:


> Absolutely it belongs here. It's fun being part of a movement. Bigots always try to shout down things that they fear because they don't understand them. Ask yourself why anyone cares about what the guy on the trail ahead or behind them is riding. Is it OK for trails to be shared by 10 year-olds and 60 year-olds? People with real jobs and people who focus on cycling (thats a dig at my pro friends)? People on $100 bikes and $20,000 bikes? Fit and fat? Conservative or dare-devil? All of those factors make each rider unique. How does knowing that a person climbed a hill faster than you did diminish your experience? It's a pretty meaningless thing to base your self-worth upon. What father wouldn't enjoy keeping up with his son? What friend wouldn't want to allow a "golf handicap" that gets a good friend out on the trails with him? You have to be a bit of a sociopath to have a visceral reaction against a bike like a Levo sharing the trails with you. I suspect that the most vociferous feel that they own the trails because of the sweat equity they have put into access and maintenance. You don't. In the end, reason will prevail. An aging population coupled with technological advancements will enhance the experience of all mountain bikers. The future is bright. We will all look back on this and laugh one day.


Stop calling people who disagree with your point of view bigots.

It is the personal attacks that are getting these threads shut down.


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