# Questions about setting up tubeless



## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

I have a Vitus Sentier Deore 1x10 and am going to configure it tubeless. Was curious about some things.

First, if the wheels/rims are advertised tubeless ready, will i still have to tape them? I pretty much always read people taping as part of tubeless setup, is this cuz most folks are using rims that aren't "tubeless ready", or is it simply a matter of some more measures being required to ensure you have a good seal?

From a little reading around thus far, it appears it's kind of a tossup between Stans and Orange

Second, is there a generally accepted best brand of sealant? What do you folks use? Have you heard or know of any types/brands to avoid? I've read of people using types that get squirted thru the valve, as well as some that you fill a cap/cup with and pour into the tire before seating the bead. Which is best/easier/more effective?

Third, am i likely to need a tire removal tool/lever?

The rims are "WTB ST i30, TCS 2.0, 27.5", 30mm inner rim width, 32H, pinned" and tires schwalbe magic mary and dampf evo if that helps or anyone has specific insight/experience.

I've read some tips, things like removing the valve core to help with inflating it to seat. If anyone has any other tips/input/things to look out for, im all ears.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Usually you have to tape them, even though they are "tubeless ready" they generally come with standard rim tape or rim strip. That said I have seen lots of WTB rims that did come taped for tubeless straight from the factory. It's pretty evident if it's tubeless tape or not but kind of hard to explain, send a pic and most people here could tell for sure.

Orange seal, Stans, Bontrager, all good sealants IME. Stans and Bontrager will last longer.

You'll probably need a tire lever, Pedros is best.

You can put any kind of sealant either through the valve stem or directly in the tire with a cup or just pour it in. I like to seat the tire first without sealant (use an air nozzle with the valve core removed) to avoid any mess. Let the air out and then squirt about 3 oz through the valve stem, install core and inflate. Should be pretty easy with those rims and decent TR tires.


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

So why are these "tubeless ready" rims often not coming with suitable tape? Kinda shifty of them. 

There much of a difference between the regular stans and the race version, latter is 6 bucks more. It just last a tad longer/seal a touch better? That seems to be what im readin. Not sure if it's worth the extra dough


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DavidLoPan said:


> So why are these "tubeless ready" rims often not coming with suitable tape? Kinda shifty of them.


Half the people who buy them just use tubes, wheel manufactures don't want to waste money. It is what it is, no big deal.

I haven't used Stans race, regular works fine IMO.


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

What's a good tape to use? I've heard lot(most) folks use gorilla tape, although from what i gather the one downside there is it leaves a thick/sticky residue if you ever have to remove it for some reason.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Stans or WTB. I've heard good things about DT but haven't tried it yet. Make sure to get the right width.

Are you sure the tape on there isn't for tubeless?


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

DavidLoPan said:


> What's a good tape to use? I've heard lot(most) folks use gorilla tape, although from what i gather the one downside there is it leaves a thick/sticky residue if you ever have to remove it for some reason.


If a rim is listed as tubeless ready, then it should be taped from the factory and ready to go. I can't say for certain that's the case for every rim out there but the ones I've had were always taped by the factory. If your bike is already taped, I would inspect the tape to make sure it looks solid. One of my rim sets actually had creases in the tape! :|

I've used Gorilla tape in the past and it makes a great seal. The only downside is that it's disgustingly messy to remove. You will want to change tape out over time. I left the tape on my rims for over a year and had zero issues but you have to remember that Gorilla Tape is not originally designed to seal bike rims. It's just really good at creating a seal.

Stan's tape is pretty good if you do it right. I recommend watching a few install guides on YouTube. Then watch the guide again before you tape it yourself. I believe Stan's tape roll will give you enough tape to try 4 times to get it right. When I first tried to tape my rims, I screwed it up and went to my bike shop.

When it comes to sealant, it's dealers choice. I've used Stans and Orange Seal and they both work just fine. One isn't superior over the other. I recommend buying some bacon strips and a co2 inflator to carry along when riding. Never know what will happen out there!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Battery said:


> If a rim is listed as tubeless ready, then it should be taped from the factory and ready to go.


I can say for certain that's not the case. We sell lots of bikes with TR rims that don't come with tubeless tape.


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## sturge (Feb 22, 2009)

Don't guess...Get some levers, let the air out, pop one bead out and pull out the tube. From there you can see if the rim is taped. Inspect tape to ensure it COMPLETELY covers all spoke holes and has minimal creases or wrinkles. Small imperfections will be sealed up by the sealant but anything that looks suspect it's better to re-tape. The hole for the valve stem can be a problem area too.

I've always used Stans tape and sealant with no issues (never used the race stuff). I ride year round in New England so my bike sees temps from below 10 degF to close to 100 degF.

Check out Stan's website for 'how to' videos on taping, bead setting, sealant application, etc. After taping it's a good idea to put in a tube, seat tire, inflate to 30-40psi and let it sit for a few hours. This pushes the tape into the grooves of the rim to ensure a better seal. Then remove tube, install tubeless valves, pour in fluid (about 2oz), set bead, inflate and bounce rim around to get sealant into all areas (per stans video). It may be a challenge to inflate the first time with new tires unless you have a compressor.


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

You will need levers to get tire off, get some good quality ones, makes job easier.
Tape can vary, a bunch of my wheelsets/new bike came set up with tubes but packaged separately with it came tape and valve stems. Goriila tape works, I use it on my old 26"er, but as mentioned its messy, and is semi-porus so sealant eventually seeps around it. Key things is to get it as even and smooth as possible. 
Tires vary, generally the more of a PIA it is to mount it onto rim, the easier it airs up and seats It means the bead diameter is tight and matches the rim closely. With a tight fitting bead I have been able to seat and air up with a regular floor pump. However more commonly it won't seat that easily. Schwables in my experience are middle of the road in that respect (I run Hans Dampfs and Magic Marys mostly). Usually just an electric air compressor works. But maybe half the time I need to take the valve core out. I fill through the valve so need to take the core out anyway, so I pretty much do that all the time. 
Some set ups are so loose you need to do some tricks like push the tire inward, some people have had to even put a strap around the outer diameter to push the whole tire inward. I've never had to put a tube in first to seat the bead.
Once you seat the bead (you should hear a snap/ping sound when the bead goes into place) you need to let the air out and fill sealant. I like to fill through the valve as you don't have to disturb the bead. I try to have the wheel off the ground, again reducing bead unseating. 
I prefer Orange, it makes less boogers/Stanimals, but they both work. Friends have tried the Finish Line with horrible results. 
Once you get sealant in, valve back together, air it up high. Then do the sealant dance. You want to swish the sealant around to get as even as possible a coat on the inside of the sidewalls and bead seat. Schwables seem to have improved their sidewalls, I remember when I first ran them the sidewalls would weep sealant, more so with Stans.


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

Battery said:


> When it comes to sealant, it's dealers choice. I've used Stans and Orange Seal and they both work just fine. One isn't superior over the other. I recommend buying some bacon strips and a co2 inflator to carry along when riding. Never know what will happen out there!


Ive heard "bacon strips/co2 inflator" mentioned quite a lot, but I have no idea what that is.


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## chewymilk99 (Nov 26, 2008)

Tubless ready does not mean the rims come with tubless tape. It means the beads of the rims are shaped in a way that will retain tubless ready tires better. 
There's many reasons they ship them with tubes. But that main ones are it's cheaper. It's easier to assemble (for them) And tubes just last longer on a showroom. 
It's a fairly easy process to convert. And something you could easily get included in the purchase price of a bike. 
Go to YouTube. There's maybe 20,000,000,000,000,000 videos on the procedure.


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

Think i'm gonna go with stans. Figure ill buy one of the 2 oz bottles, as it seems far easier to use that to get it thru the valve to fill rather than pouring in, not to mention having a 2 oz bottle would take any need for measuring off the table. Just fill one of those up with the more economically priced bigger jugs of em in the future.

When it comes to the amount to use, i pretty much can only find stans advertises 2 oz should be enough for most tires. Ive read in review/instructional articles though that putting in a little more is beneficial. How much do you folks who have utilized Stans use? 2 oz be plenty enough or should i go for 3?



chewymilk99 said:


> Tubless ready does not mean the rims come with tubless tape. It means the beads of the rims are shaped in a way that will retain tubless ready tires better.
> There's many reasons they ship them with tubes. But that main ones are it's cheaper. It's easier to assemble (for them) And tubes just last longer on a showroom.
> It's a fairly easy process to convert. And something you could easily get included in the purchase price of a bike.
> Go to YouTube. There's maybe 20,000,000,000,000,000 videos on the procedure.


Yeah already watched plenty of vids. Know how to do it. This thread was moreso for any specific advice or specific tips based on folks' own personal experiences, opinions on things in those vids, what works best/etc.

And it makes perfect sense why they come with tubes. That wasn't ever in question. It'd be nice if that "tubeless ready" across the board meant not only is the beads are compatible but that the rim is already sealed and ready to go.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DavidLoPan said:


> It'd be nice if that "tubeless ready" across the board meant not only is the beads are compatible but that the rim is already sealed and ready to go.


That is never what it meant and it will never mean that.

The first widespread tubeless tech was UST. THAT meant the rims were 100% ready to go. Match with a UST tire and you have tubeless (but no puncture protection from sealant, but it did not REQUIRE sealant).

Stan's conversions came next. They let you use most regular tires WITH sealant and there were a handful of conversion methods to seal the rim, and many were a pain. Some rims and some tires didn't work. And sometimes it was a specific combination of rim and tire that didn't work. When it worked, it was great. But when it didn't, it sucked. I used UST for a bit, but my next step was using a half-stans conversion on UST rims with regular tires and that was pretty brilliant when I used a tire that could be sealed with sealant. Stans eventually made their own rims with the tape we know now and spawned the current "Tubeless Ready" standard.

"Tubeless ready" was not UST (though it sometimes borrows the bead shape of UST). Tubeless ready has always required specific rim strips to seal the rim. UST had no holes in the inner wall of the rim for the spoke nipples, so it didn't need tape. But oftentimes building those wheels involved expensive, proprietary parts/tools and was a PITA. Tubeless ready let you use regular rims, and dropped the cost and hassle substantially. The tires themselves changed, too. UST tires had SUPER stiff casings that could hold air without sealant (but were not necessarily more durable). They were also heavy AF compared to previous tires. "Tubeless ready" tires required sealant, but the casings were also lighter and more supple. You can say that they're intermediate between non-tubeless tires and UST tires in that regard.

Tubeless ready has always meant that the rims (and tires) with the label were easily converted to tubeless with the right rim tape and some sealant. Whether the bike manufacturer chooses to build the bike with appropriate tape for tubeless or not is their own decision. Some bike manufacturers (like Santa Cruz) will send their bikes to shops with everything to set them up tubeless on the showroom floor, so no conversion necessary.

Also, you need way more than 2oz of sealant for two tires. for a fresh setup, 2oz PER tire is a good minimum, IMO, but specifics kinda depend on how big your tires are. I use a syringe with metric volumes and I put 50mL in 29x2.6 tires. I put 100mL in 26x3.8 fat tires.


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## NorCal_In_AZ (Sep 26, 2019)

I start with 2oz (per tire, 27.5x2.3) of Stans through the stem. After a few rides, I’ll check the tire and maybe add a bit more.


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## root (Jan 24, 2006)

DavidLoPan said:


> When it comes to the amount to use, i pretty much can only find stans advertises 2 oz should be enough for most tires. Ive read in review/instructional articles though that putting in a little more is beneficial. How much do you folks who have utilized Stans use? 2 oz be plenty enough or should


I usually use closer to 3oz of black blood of the earth in new high volume tires. 
Add about an ounce every few month.


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

So I broke into a wheel and I'm pretty sure my rims came pre-taped. This doesn't look like just rim/spoke strip to me(def appears to be tape).

Several questions/issues;

1. Am I mistaken, or is this in fact taped for tubeless already?

2. No bubbling, smooth, except for around the valve/stem hole. That looks hideous. You think that's so mangled it is likely to give me problems/not hold? What about the tape going into the hole, that caused by them cutting too big when making a place for the valve to go through, or is that fairly typical after pushing a valve thru a taped hole?

I inserted a valve and it seems to go in all the way, doesnt appear to be any visible gaps/crookedness caused by the lack of smoothness in the tape near the hole. I figure if there were any unseen issues, the sealant itself should take care of it so long as it's small.

3. All the instructions i've come across say to overlap the tape by 4 to even 10 inches, over the valve hole. As you can see in the pic attached, it looks like they made the hole right thru the seam of where the tape overlaps. Def seems a dumb, counter-intuitive way of doing it. Seems like it would increase the chances of the tape pealing up at the seam, unless the exact opposite is why it was done this way and the intent was for the valve itself to help maintain the integrity of the tape in that location.

4. I know youre supposed to tape it along side of the wall of the rim. That was done inconsistently here. It looks almost like one side is almost entirely done that way with a few spots that aren't, while the other side is the opposite.

Basically, should I go ahead and give it a go and see what happens, see if it holds? Or is this right out of the gate most likely a botch job and I should save myself the trouble and redo it? I figure unless folks tell me it is just blatantly totally ****ed, im gonna test it out.

UNLESS, question 1 informs me I'm wrong to begin with haha, at which point, ignore the rest.









Taped along the side









Segment not taped along side









Holy massacre


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

Looks tubeless ready to me. If you get a leak, it may be around the valve stem. It does happen. You will want to gunk up around the valve stem (with sealant) to create a seal.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Yeah that's tubeless tape, maybe not the best job but if it were me I'd put a tire on and go for it. Most likely it will be just fine.


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## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

Before you put sealant in it see if you can get the bead to seat,might save you wasting sealant.


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

rangeriderdave said:


> Before you put sealant in it see if you can get the bead to seat,might save you wasting sealant.


That was my plan

And it was a lost cause.

Holy crap that's just not possible with just a pump. Removed the valve core, no difference. Made sure i didn't make any of the dumb mistakes like not having both sides of the tire around the valve. Hand pump just doesn't push enough air nor fast enough to seat. I got a tire inflater for my car that hooks up into the cig lighter port, gonna see if that pushes enough to work.

When it comes to compressors, would a gas station air pump work? Do people do that?


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

You could but it would get old having to go to gas station Everytime you mess with a tire.
A small pancake style compressor (6 gallon) works great and not too$$

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

DavidLoPan said:


> When it comes to compressors, would a gas station air pump work? Do people do that?


Yes, my friend does that. Remember youll need a presta to schreader adapter.
The cig lighter one might work, you might have to do tricks of trying to press as much of bead into center. Guys at rallycross have actually been able to get car tires to rebead with a portable compressor powered with cordless tool battery, I forget what brand.
Oh, and bacon strips are tire puncture repair plugs. If you get a puncture too big for sealant, a plug can get you going without going to putting a tube in. CO2 are compressed CO2 canisters as used in air/pellet guns, lifevest, etc. that quickly inflate tires. But pretty much one shot and its done, if you don't get it right the first shot its done.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

It's a sloppy job, but it should hold for awhile, at least. Might have to redo it eventually, but I've seen (and done) much worse tape jobs that have held air.

A hand pump? Ha, no way. On 29x2.6 tires, I've managed to seat them with a solid floor pump, but I won't go so far as to say you should be able to do all tires that way. I have a portable air compressor that I can use in a pinch.

Bacon strips are the cheap tire plugs. They work, but a fair number of people complain about them being irritating to use. I have a Dynaplug tire plug tool. Its plugs are more expensive, but super fast and easy to use.

CO2 can be used in a pinch, but I won't use it with tubeless tires. It causes sealant to coagulate and become ineffective. The people who do use it to seat tubeless tires in the field oftentimes let the CO2 out of the tire right after seating the bead, and then refill the tires from a hand pump to avoid the sealant coagulation problems as much as they can. Rather than doing that, I've decided I'll just install a tube.

I wouldn't count on the cigarette lighter inflator pushing enough air to seat the bead. If it's like most of the ones I know, it pushes less air volume than a hand pump. If you have a nice one, then I suppose it might work, but not so many people have those just lying around. It behooves you to have a decent floor pump, anyway. Get one intended for mt bikes that has a gauge that tops out no higher than 60psi. You can use one with a more roadie-oriented gauge that goes higher (I have one that goes as high as 240psi, but most top out at 160psi), but the gauge will be useless for mtb pressures and you'll need a separate gauge (which is what I actually use). There are a bunch of mtb-oriented pumps on the market nowadays. When I bought mine, such a thing didn't really exist.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Bontrager flash charger pump is another alternative, costs as much as a cheap compressor but is also a good floor pump.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Been running tubeless before tubeless tires and rims were a thing. Started with Stan's rim strips way back when.

Gorilla tape. Yes there are downsides and detractors. But after trying almost every other suggestion listed on these boards I've always come back to it. I've found it to be the most reliable, bombproof, versatile tape. Easy to find. Easy to tear in to custom widths. Cheap. And, a roll in the tool box can be used for many other things. I hate spending so much money on "bike specific" tools and parts.

The reported downside of sticky residue left behind upon removal - well, I've made the mistake of pulling the tape off when the rim was cold and got the residue. Warm the rim up in your home first, and I've found the tape comes off easily with minimal to no residue.

Also, learn how to install the tape correctly and removing the tape is something you'll rarely have to deal with.

Other tapes may work perfectly with specific setups but faulter with other set ups. Stan's tape works perfectly with Stan's rims. It works poorly however with a deep channeled and/or carbon rim.



Sealant. I make my own. Probably works at least as good as bought sealant, but way cheaper. Otherwise, in a pinch, I've used other sealants, mostly Stan's, and they seem to work well.


General advice for seating...

Remove the valve core.

Slick up the bead with suds.

With those two covered its very rare I need to pull out the compressor to seat a bead.


Good luck.


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## sturge (Feb 22, 2009)

Yup...that's a taped rim! A bit sloppy but I would give it a try. I bought a pancake compressor from Home Depot a few years ago for about $100. Before that I was able to get 27.5 X 2.5 tires seated with my floor pump but it was a pain in the arse. I had someone man the pump while I futzed around trying to get beads to seat and it finally worked.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I can get a good rim/tire combo to seal up with a floor pump most of the time. If not, I made a ghetto tire blaster out of a 2L soda bottle and two old valve stems. Works perfectly every time. Look up ghetto tubeless inflator bottle" and you'll find a ton of examples.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

DavidLoPan said:


> I have a Vitus Sentier Deore 1x10 and am going to configure it tubeless. Was curious about some things.
> 
> First, if the wheels/rims are advertised tubeless ready, will i still have to tape them? I pretty much always read people taping as part of tubeless setup, is this cuz most folks are using rims that aren't "tubeless ready", or is it simply a matter of some more measures being required to ensure you have a good seal?
> 
> ...


David, let's make things really, really easy: go to a bike shop, have them make it for you, enjoy. The last one they made for me took 10 minutes and they charged a whopping $15. Most of the time it's more than that, but let the experts do that for you, it will save you a lot of headaches in the garage trying to figure out how to get the tape perfectly right, not to mention how to fit a very tight tire on the rim without screwing up the tape.


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## root (Jan 24, 2006)

richj8990 said:


> David, let's make things really, really easy: go to a bike shop, have them make it for you, enjoy. The last one they made for me took 10 minutes and they charged a whopping $15. Most of the time it's more than that, but let the experts do that for you, it will save you a lot of headaches in the garage trying to figure out how to get the tape perfectly right, not to mention how to fit a very tight tire on the rim without screwing up the tape.


If you have the desire, which sounds like you do, I wholeheartedly recommend you try it yourself. The worst you can do is make an embarrassing mess all over your shorts and clothes(wear junk clothes) and if you give up , then go to a shop. Youll gain knowledge and either able to do it yourself, decide if its worth it to have someone else do it, and/or give u appreciation on what it entails.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

DavidLoPan said:


> Basically, should I go ahead and give it a go and see what happens, see if it holds? Or is this right out of the gate most likely a botch job and I should save myself the trouble and redo it? I figure unless folks tell me it is just blatantly totally ****ed, im gonna test it out.


Just roll with it. That's not an ideal job, but good enough. I've use gas station compressors, but they aren't all up to the task. I paid money for one when I was visiting NC, and it did nothing. The gas station near my house works fine.

I'm going to echo the call to get Pedro's levers. They are great and aren't likely to break. You might not always need them to get the tire off, but they still come in handy.

Another method to get the bead to seal is to install a tube first to seat the beads, then unseat one side, take out the tube, and try to pump up the rest of the way. It's a bit of a pain, but it can work. I've also made DIY inflators. This was probably my most effective one, although I don't usually need to use it:

__
http://instagr.am/p/Bt1vSDAlSQZ/
.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

it could not hurt to send those photos to the retailer that sold you the bike and tell them someone did a crap job of taping the rims. they could make up for it by sending you a new roll of tape so you can redo it. Stan's has some excellent videos illustrating a tubeless tape job for you to follow.


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

So I just seated the bead.

Have not yet put sealant in, but I already know it leaks air from around the valve(significant, audible hiss).

What is the best course of action at this point? Do I redo the tape at least around where the valve is at(figure it wouldn't be TOO difficult to just cut away the ****ed up portion pictured around the valve and redo that specific segment).

OR do I squirt some sealant in and see if that contains the leaking and makes everything work smooth?

I know you can reuse sealant if air doesnt hold, but that seems like a big pain in the arse and potentially messy.

BTW, I got it seated using a regular floor pump. The following vid is what did the trick. I didnt even partially pre-seat the bead halfway around on each side as the vid suggests, I was only able to get prob 25% at best on each side, honestly if that even. I started pumping and i could tell almost immediately that it was holding the air and actually inflating, then I heard a couple sweet pops. Beautiful. For anyone havin issues or wanting to know a great(the best?) way to get tubeless seated, i strongly recommend this. Commentary on the vid is FULL of folks saying it worked like magic, and I can also attest to it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

If it were me I'd probably just add sealant and see what happens, or if you happen to already have some extra tape maybe just add an extra layer on top of what's there.


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> If it were me I'd probably just add sealant and see what happens, or if you happen to already have some extra tape maybe just add an extra layer on top of what's there.


You would try it with sealant even if it's likely not a small leak?

I don't have tape to do the whole rim, just got some thinner gorilla tape. It might be good enough to touch up around the hole.

I was questioning going over what's there or removing what's there. I'm wondering if the mangled job around the stem hole is causing the valve to go in at just an imperfect enough angle that it's preventing a proper seal/plug of the hole, allowing air to escape as a result.


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

SUCCESS!!

So I opted to leave the original tape in place. Put a strip of black gorilla tape over the hole, took a box cutter and used the tip/corner of the blade to put some very minimal cuts over the hole, was more of a poke almost. 

I had read others with this problem had put grease on the valve before installing it, one person in another forum mentioned they had put plumbers/pipe thread sealant/lube over the gasket/lower threads of the valve. I had some laying around and figured why not, get some extra seal assurance. I had read the stans tire sealant likely wouldnt form a seal around metal, so if air was getting around the valves rubber gasket, sealant may not help much as it wouldnt be able to seal between the valve/rim. No idea how accurate that is. I slathered some pipe-thread sealant on anyways.

And I also squirted a little Stans over the hold before punching the valve thru and tightening it on, ensuring there was tire sealant around the valve just in case the extra tape still left some gaps.

One thing I did NOT do was over-torque the hell out of the presta-nut. I read endless hordes of folks across message boards recommend doing this, but had also seen/read that this can damage the valves seal-gasket, causing even more problems. Seemed screwy to rely on this nut to be keeping air in your tire anyways.

I can now attest that my initial success seating the bead using the tip in that below linked youtube vid was not a fluke. Went on just as easily the second time. Seriously folks, give it a try if you usually have issues, or if you're reading this before trying it for the first time. Amazing. Don't know why every youtube "How to" doesn't include that as steps or at least mention it as an extra thing to consider if having issues. 

And it's holding air just fine. I'll check it again tomorrow, hopefully get a ride in, and see how it goes. Def appears to have be a done deal though.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

With regular mtb tires (up to 2.6" wide), I've not had to do any funny business to get the tire seated. On my fatbike with Nextie rims, I've tried so many things, including attempting to get the bead of the tire partially seated on the rim (not the exact technique in the video, but similar to it) that the only thing that's reliable is using a tube to fully seat the beads, then breaking the seat on one side to remove the tube and install my tubeless valve.

Most valve stems I've used have leaked at first to some degree...at least until a bit of sealant coagulates around the rubber gasket. A couple things help:

1. As you found, when cutting a hole in the tape for the valve, I just use a utility knife to cut a cross over the hole and then I jam the valve through. The extra tape pushing into the hole helps to seal it against the rubber gasket.

2. The shape of the rubber gasket matters. Some valves have a cone-shaped bit of rubber at their base (like the Stans valves) and these get a little bit firmer seal at the rim, it seems. Some valves only give you a little o-ring and I've had issues with these. The profile of the channel on the rim will determine whether an o-ring will seal well. It needs to be pretty flat. Too much curvature and it won't.

3. I hate the knurled nut on the exterior of the rim, though. No matter how tight I tighten them, they ALWAYS loosen over time. Sometimes if I don't catch it soon enough, the seal at the base of the valve can break. But you do need to tighten that nut at least somewhat firmly. And if you use the valve long enough, the rubber base will get damaged. Never had it get bad enough to prevent a seal, though.

I got some e.13 valves for a new mtb about a year ago. I like them a lot, after some initial irritation (which wasn't even caused by the valves themselves, but rather, the sealant). https://www.ethirteen.com/products/tubeless-valve They're a two-piece design, and they DO. NOT. LOOSEN. which is absolutely fantastic. You do need to use plumber's teflon tape on the threads so the two pieces seal, though. I always have some of this stuff sitting around, so it's not a problem. But it's definitely necessary. There are two different-shaped rubber gaskets you choose from depending on your rim shape. The o-ring is for flatter rim shapes and the other piece is for more curved rims. I tried both, and am using the one for more curved rims. I also like that the hole at the bottom inside the rim is a 4mm hex. So you can put a tool on it and get them properly snug. Also, the outer part has a plastic "washer" at the base where it contacts the rim, so it doesn't chew up the outer surface of your rim when you tighten it. These are pretty well-designed valves, IMO. Kinda expensive for what they are, but most excellent.


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

The seating with a tube, then removing bead on just one side to pull tube out was going to be my next strategy. Seems like a solid idea.


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

Just did my rear wheel, bit trickier

Tapejob was even worse. It was peeling back up. I guess they either just said, "screw it, good enough" or they deemed that it wasn't bad enough to require a do-over. It was still sticking outside of where that corner is peeled. I cut that portion off and covered that part(and the hole) with some gorilla tape. 

Significant bubbling throughout over the spoke holes. 

I went ahead and sealed it. Leaked out of valve but not as bad as the other one. After twirling the wheel around it stopped and held. 

Seating the bead was far harder. That youtube vid strategy of partially installed half the bead did not work this time. The tire just wouldn't stay in that position. I'd get several inches partially seated and then it all would just come loose and currl back in on itself into the center of the rim, it was like the tire had too much give in it so it never was tight enough to stay in place when id try to arrange it a certain way. I had to install the tube, seat it, deflate, break bead on just the one side, remove tube. Even then, it wasn't seating. Ended up having to hold several inches of the tire bead partially in with my hand as i was pumping. 

GTG now, seems to be holding.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DavidLoPan said:


> Just did my rear wheel, bit trickier
> 
> Tapejob was even worse. It was peeling back up. I guess they either just said, "screw it, good enough" or they deemed that it wasn't bad enough to require a do-over. It was still sticking outside of where that corner is peeled. I cut that portion off and covered that part(and the hole) with some gorilla tape.
> 
> ...


What sort of pump are you using?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DavidLoPan said:


> Just did my rear wheel, bit trickier
> 
> Tapejob was even worse. It was peeling back up. I guess they either just said, "screw it, good enough" or they deemed that it wasn't bad enough to require a do-over. It was still sticking outside of where that corner is peeled. I cut that portion off and covered that part(and the hole) with some gorilla tape.
> 
> ...


pretty sure a big part of your problem there was using a bit of gorilla tape as a patch over an existing tape job. A lot of tubeless tires fit tight on tubeless ready rims with just a wrap of stans tape, so it's going to be really hard to get them to seat if you add something thick like gorilla tape on top of it.

You probably would have been fine just cutting off the folded over bit of tape and leaving it. It's entirely likely that it kinda stuck when it was initially done, but not well enough because of some lube contamination, or even just skin oils.


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

I'm just using some regular, 30-40 dollar floor pump. Schwinn maybe? One of those commonplace, regular joe type of brands.



Harold said:


> pretty sure a big part of your problem there was using a bit of gorilla tape as a patch over an existing tape job. A lot of tubeless tires fit tight on tubeless ready rims with just a wrap of stans tape, so it's going to be really hard to get them to seat if you add something thick like gorilla tape on top of it.
> 
> You probably would have been fine just cutting off the folded over bit of tape and leaving it. It's entirely likely that it kinda stuck when it was initially done, but not well enough because of some lube contamination, or even just skin oils.


The tape i put on only went in the very center of the rim and was only about 6 inches long or so, i wouldn't think that would cause effect or even touch the tire at all. It didn't come close to the wall of the rim where the bead would touch.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DavidLoPan said:


> I'm just using some regular, 30-40 dollar floor pump. Schwinn maybe? One of those commonplace, regular joe type of brands.


That makes things much more difficult, using an air compressor (with valve core removed) or a pump like Bontrager flash pump makes the job simple & fast.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DavidLoPan said:


> The tape i put on only went in the very center of the rim and was only about 6 inches long or so, i wouldn't think that would cause effect or even touch the tire at all. It didn't come close to the wall of the rim where the bead would touch.


Tape in the center channel absolutely does affect how easily a tire seats on the bead. It needs to be somewhat loose so the tire can move where it needs to go. If the center channel is too full, then that makes it harder.

Also, if the tape doesn't go up to the shoulders of the inside of the rim where the bead seats, it's not really doing that much and probably isn't worth it, anyway.

Probably better to redo the entire tape job if you think it's part of the problem.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

If you are a DITY mechanic, you can always throw down and pick up one of these bad boys. I have one and used it frequently on all my bike builds:

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/air-tool-blast-tubeless-tire-setter/p/156624?color=232984-156624&searchText=47216-3460&gclid=CjwKCAjw4KD0BRBUEiwA7MFNTX3GY4szQ5zQouX1su11esTYbl25CJeFc6xnmsl4RU8c7SCCKpNYwxoCvFYQAvD_BwE


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Battery said:


> If you are a DITY mechanic, you can always throw down and pick up one of these bad boys. I have one and used it frequently on all my bike builds:
> 
> https://www.specialized.com/us/en/air-tool-blast-tubeless-tire-setter/p/156624?color=232984-156624&searchText=47216-3460&gclid=CjwKCAjw4KD0BRBUEiwA7MFNTX3GY4szQ5zQouX1su11esTYbl25CJeFc6xnmsl4RU8c7SCCKpNYwxoCvFYQAvD_BwE


Yes, that's the same as Bontrager flash can. Just about as good as a compressor IME.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yes, that's the same as Bontrager flash can. Just about as good as a compressor IME.


Yep I agree. However, not everyone has a compressor in their garage.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Battery said:


> Yep I agree. However, not everyone has a compressor in their garage.


That's what I meant, a good alternative.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's what I meant, a good alternative.


Sorry! I slightly misunderstood your viewpoint. I thought you were advocating for a compressor. I could actually use a compressor though


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

If my tire isnt holding air at all or filling up at all when using just the normal/cheap pump to seat the bead, would a compressor or comparable device change much? I would assume air would just flood out even faster at the same places it was leaking out while using a floor pump, and id still be left with a tire that wont seat without me doing some "tricks".

Also, there's quite a few vids of people making devices out of a liter bottle to hit the tire with a large sudden pressure of air. Anybody ever messed around with anything like that? It work similar to the stuff like that air blast thing linked below?

As is, i was able to get em seated. Hopefully i dont have to mess with em again for a good long while until it comes time to replace the sealant, and when i do they go on just as easily without having to screw around with anything else.



Harold said:


> Tape in the center channel absolutely does affect how easily a tire seats on the bead. It needs to be somewhat loose so the tire can move where it needs to go. If the center channel is too full, then that makes it harder.
> 
> Also, if the tape doesn't go up to the shoulders of the inside of the rim where the bead seats, it's not really doing that much and probably isn't worth it, anyway.
> 
> Probably better to redo the entire tape job if you think it's part of the problem.


Good to know. Wouldn't think the tape in the center channel would effect too much. I will say i dont believe that led to difficulties here, as my initial attempt at seating the first tire was done without any extra tape installed at all. There was no difference.

If the tape at the shoulders looks solid and only the portion in the center looks suspect, why would it be necessary to redo it all? Made sense to me just to use the thin tape I had to ensure the problem areas(like around the hole) would hold.

I thought about redoing the whole thing, but figured why not set it up and see if it holds, and it has thus far.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

DavidLoPan said:


> If my tire isnt holding air at all or filling up at all when using just the normal/cheap pump to seat the bead, would a compressor or comparable device change much? I would assume air would just flood out even faster at the same places it was leaking out while using a floor pump, and id still be left with a tire that wont seat without me doing some "tricks".
> 
> Also, there's quite a few vids of people making devices out of a liter bottle to hit the tire with a large sudden pressure of air. Anybody ever messed around with anything like that? It work similar to the stuff like that air blast thing linked below?


A surge of air is what is helpful with a compressor or other method. You don't get that with a pump.

I don't know that I'd trust the bottle inflators. As I posted above, old fire extinguishers work really well. This thing was super easy to build and can be pumped up safely:

__
http://instagr.am/p/Bt4T8K3Fzu8/
. Just remove the gauge and insert a presta valve. I used one from an old tube. Mine would be better with a real pump head, but I don't need to use it much now that my rim is no longer dinged up and inflates easily with a floor pump.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

DavidLoPan said:


> If my tire isnt holding air at all or filling up at all when using just the normal/cheap pump to seat the bead, would a compressor or comparable device change much?


Yes, as s0ckeyeus mentioned above a compressor makes a huge difference, a lot of the tires I install at work would be impossible or at least very difficult to install without one (or an air blast pump)


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## Darryl Licht (May 24, 2020)

Sorry to say, but if your WTB rims are marked TCS 2.0, then you didn't need any tape. According to WTB's website the TCS 2.0 rims include TCS tape with a specially treated rim strip on top that WTB calls TCS SOLID STRIP.

I was frantically looking for rim tape today so that I could swap tires over to tubeless on my 2020 Honzo. I called my LBS where I purchased the bike and they said with the WTB TCS 2.0, you dont need it. A quick google confirmed...

Here: https://www.wtb.com/pages/tech

My tires seated just fine (I have a compressor) and not a drop of sealant has leaked out anywhere. I stayed with WTB for my tires with a Verdict 2.5 up front and a Judge 2.4 in the rear. also rated TCS 2.0.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Darryl Licht said:


> Sorry to say, but if your WTB rims are marked TCS 2.0, then you didn't need any tape. According to WTB's website the TCS 2.0 rims include TCS tape with a specially treated rim strip on top that WTB calls TCS SOLID STRIP.
> 
> I was frantically looking for rim tape today so that I could swap tires over to tubeless on my 2020 Honzo. I called my LBS where I purchased the bike and they said with the WTB TCS 2.0, you dont need it. A quick google confirmed...
> 
> ...


TCS 2.0 does require tape (the link you posted confirms this). You have to tape over the TCS Solid Strip, which is there to prevent issues with the spoke holes. Your Honzo probably came with pre-taped rims.


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## BujiBiker (Jun 7, 2019)

My wtb i29 rims from fezzari were 2.0. I bought wtb valve stems and added berryman’s tire seal’r at 3 ozs each and done. That’s with minion exo’s. I’ve had numerous punctures, no flats.


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## Darryl Licht (May 24, 2020)

s0ckeyeus said:


> TCS 2.0 does require tape (the link you posted confirms this). You have to tape over the TCS Solid Strip, which is there to prevent issues with the spoke holes. Your Honzo probably came with pre-taped rims.


Yes, mine came with both as I stated. I did not need to add any tape.

However the strip on top is not a tape, has no adhesive, and is a blue nylon fabric strip which is treated on the backside. It sealed perfectly with ZERO air pressure loss to date!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Darryl Licht said:


> It sealed perfectly with ZERO air pressure loss to date!


That's impossible.


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## Darryl Licht (May 24, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's impossible.


Perhaps it is impossible for your specific rim and tire selection.

I have WTB rims and WTB tires, and the fact is after 4 days the PSI still reads 35 front and rear. Allowing for slight airloss at pressure check of course. I lose 1 lb of pressure each time I check them.

Perhaps the tires seal better with the same manufacturers tires? Makes sense that WTB would design their tires to work best with their rims, dont you think?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Darryl Licht said:


> Perhaps it is impossible for your specific rim and tire selection.
> 
> I have WTB rims and WTB tires, and the fact is after 4 days the PSI still reads 35 front and rear. Allowing for slight airloss at pressure check of course. I lose 1 lb of pressure each time I check them.
> 
> Perhaps the tires seal better with the same manufacturers tires? Makes sense that WTB would design their tires to work best with their rims, dont you think?


Yeah sorry, I was just being literal. All tires lose psi all the time, I've never had wheels that didn't need topping off at least every few days.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yeah sorry, I was just being literal. All tires lose psi all the time, I've never had wheels that didn't need topping off at least every few days.


I have one wheelset that looses 1-2 psi per month...it's unreal. Most of my others that lose 2 psi per day.

I set psi every ride.

To the OP,

I use Gorrilla tape (always carry a roll everywhere.
Bontrager charger air pump. 
Topeka Smartgauge 
4 oz orange seal per tire.

The 12 or 16oz orange seal bottle I keep with the filler neck that comes with the regular small orange seal bottle. It's essentially fishing tank air tube with a valve.

Also keep extra presets cores handy, one in your pack in case you bend or break one on the trail.

I use a frame pump, wife carried c02, and always take Dynaplugs. These will seal most every hole/holes we have encountered and you are back going in a few minutes, sometimes seconds.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavidLoPan (Jul 27, 2019)

I have no had to put air into em yet. Kinda surprised.

What's the recommended mileage/timeframe to refill sealant? Temps range from 60s at night to 90s during day where i'm at, my bike is kept on a porch where it gets little to no protection from outside temps.

Ive heard some folks try to get a feel for when it needs fresh sealant by spinning tire and seeing if they can hear it sloshing around. Even when mine was fresh in there that was hard to decipher over the sound of a bike wheel spinnin.


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## Darryl Licht (May 24, 2020)

DavidLoPan said:


> I have no had to put air into em yet. Kinda surprised.
> 
> What's the recommended mileage/timeframe to refill sealant? Temps range from 60s at night to 90s during day where i'm at, my bike is kept on a porch where it gets little to no protection from outside temps.
> 
> I've heard some folks try to get a feel for when it needs fresh sealant by spinning tire and seeing if they can hear it sloshing around. Even when mine was fresh in there that was hard to decipher over the sound of a bike wheel spinnin.


I dont recall where I read the suggestion, but I read a cool little tip regarding this topic. Make a dipstick from a colored zip tie or similar and make a line on it when you setup your tires and sealant. Then you can check your level and top off via a syringe if needed.

If you're like most riders you will replace tires every season, or close to it, that's when you will replace all the sauce anyway.


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## Taroroot (Nov 6, 2013)

Don't spin, take wheel out of frame, jiggle it around and see if you can hear it sloshing. I'm way overdue, its been like 6 months for me. Should be more like every 4 at least, prob less.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Darryl Licht said:


> Yes, mine came with both as I stated. I did not need to add any tape.
> 
> However the strip on top is not a tape, has no adhesive, and is a blue nylon fabric strip which is treated on the backside. It sealed perfectly with ZERO air pressure loss to date!


The tape goes over the red rim strip...


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## Pontiac787 (Jun 2, 2020)

I converted my WTB rims last week. The rims came pre-taped but both leaked air like crazy from 1 or 2 spokes and the valve. I pulled the tape and installed my own then refilled the tires without sealant for a test. They held air with no leaks that I could hear or feel. I have much more confidence in my tape job knowing it held air even before I added the sealant. Not sure why they even bother to tape them if they aren’t going to do it well.


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