# Weight on the bike vs weight on the rider?



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

So most ebikes today are 20 lbs heavier than their normal bike equivalent. The 50 lb bike does indeed feel much heavier than a 30 lb bike and the riding experience is quite different/compromised.

To counter this, ebike manufacturers have used:
- bigger brakes and brake rotors
- stiffer forks
- more damping
- plus tires

But... a 160 lb rider does NOT seem to be using much different equipment than a 140 lb rider... and so on. It's the same 20 lb difference.

So WHAT is it about the bike that makes the 20 lbs feel different. What is the science? Is it the way it's positioned, the way it moves?

I see weight in three areas:
- 20 lbs on the bike
- 20 lbs on a pack
- 20 lbs in the rider's body.

And they seem to behave differently. Thoughts? Theories? Math?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Weight on the bike makes it less easy to move around, like a wheel loft and can you even do a bunny hop with a 50lb bike?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

My completely unscientific theories are:

20lbs on your body feels normal, since you walk around all day long with it. Lose 20 lbs though, and all of a sudden you can climb...

20lbs on your back sucks (I ride with heavy packs a lot in the 10-15lb range) and hurts your bike handling a bit with all that weight up high. Plus, being bent over with a pack on isn't the best way to distribute the weight of the pack to your body. 

20lbs on the bike means more dead weight to toss around like Leeboh says, much of it is low though, so there's at least that.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

leeboh said:


> Weight on the bike makes it less easy to move around, like a wheel loft and can you even do a bunny hop with a 50lb bike?


Hell yeah. But you make a good point.

One thing really interesting about heavy bikes is you don't yank and lift it per se. You use its own momentum and energy to send it in orbit.

It's subtle but very enlightening. You transfer its energy upwards to get good results. Thus, if you have a little rock or root you used to pop off on with a 25 lb bike, it doesn't work well on a 50 pounder. But get a real jump with a real lip and the ebike will soar.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Harryman said:


> My completely unscientific theories are:
> 
> 20lbs on your body feels normal, since you walk around all day long with it. Lose 20 lbs though, and all of a sudden you can climb...
> 
> ...


Very good!

20 lbs on your back/hip is different too since it is more dynamic than bike weight. You can move it around like an energy ball to load the bike, unload, transfer weight back/forward.


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## BCsaltchucker (Jan 16, 2014)

weight on the bike has its pros and cons. provides some low-CG inertia, smoothing out the ride, some extra energy going downhill. But that same inertia inhibits changes in direction. and it is a total pita going uphill, as pedalling a bicycle is a series of tiny accelerations with every pedal stroke. but with motor, of course, negated by free power


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## Van Cuz (Jun 24, 2010)

It's not simple, and I'm no expert, but some of the factors I see having an impact to the ride quality of eMTB are:

Higher sprung to unsprung mass ratio. The extra weight of an eMTB frame means that the suspension will be more efficient at reducing the transfer of bump force to the frame and the rider. This is being identified in reviews as better feeling suspension and more cornering grip. 

Lower centre of gravity (CoG). The heavy motor and battery lower the overall CoG resulting in a more stable feeling bike.

Heavier bike results in more inertia. The bike will be harder to change direction, rotate, stop and accelerate. The acceleration is compensated by the motor. Bigger tyres and brakes compensate the increased stoping force.

I also think there is an interesting compromise going on in the current designs between tyre size, climbing prowess, chainstay length and motor configuration. My gut feeling is that 27.5 plus tyres (>=2.8) are a compromise that isn't needed, but is being used because most motor configurations end up with really long chainstay when you try and fit a decent width 29" wheel ( brose and Shimano seem to be the best at accommodating shorter chainstay).

Interesting times!

If I had to guess where its all going to end up, I would expect that most eMTB's will be rolling on 29" wheels with 2.6" tyres, have 450mm chainstays and weigh a little bit less than they do now at ~20kg (I know the new s-works is around this weight, but not many people have $10k for a eMTB). Integrated batteries will become the norm, as the big external ones are pretty ugly, and Focus, Spesh, Pivot etc have all proved the can fit in the downtube. I would also guess that power is at a good level now, and most of the development will go into applying that power a bit more smartly with better modulation and speed.

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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Van Cuz said:


> It's not simple, and I'm no expert, but some of the factors I see having an impact to the ride quality of eMTB are:
> 
> Higher sprung to unsprung mass ratio. The extra weight of an eMTB frame means that the suspension will be more efficient at reducing the transfer of bump force to the frame and the rider. This is being identified in reviews as better feeling suspension and more cornering grip.
> 
> ...


Good post. I 100% agree. My focus is set up with 29" high end hybrid dt Carbon rims / 240 hubs. More for stiffness than weight savings. I ride the 2.6 Maxxis family front and rear and it's amazing how it handles for a 46# bike. Stiffer Lyrik fork and DVO Topaz rear shock. I can remember in my moto cross days shedding weight from my 450 was all about rotational weight. If it was low with no inertia, it was fine.

I'm also really digging the extra weight for stability and deflection. You can send it on an ebike!


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

fc said:


> Hell yeah. But you make a good point.
> 
> One thing really interesting about heavy bikes is you don't yank and lift it per se. You use its own momentum and energy to send it in orbit.
> 
> It's subtle but very enlightening. You transfer its energy upwards to get good results. Thus, if you have a little rock or root you used to pop off on with a 25 lb bike, it doesn't work well on a 50 pounder. But get a real jump with a real lip and the ebike will soar.


 How does that work for a log that is 6-12" in the middle of the trail? Or a 1 ft rock ledge you need to get the front wheel up and on top? Happens all the time on most of my rides.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

You can manual and do smaller bunny hops. I usually front wheel back wheel objects that are big, unless I’m feeling it, then I’ll manual to back wheel jump. Handling is slower for sure, but you kinda pick your lines early and start earlier. I find you also don’t need to be as precise because you’ll monster truck it.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

leeboh said:


> How does that work for a log that is 6-12" in the middle of the trail? Or a 1 ft rock ledge you need to get the front wheel up and on top? Happens all the time on most of my rides.


More power means more suspension, heavier tires, etc. are no longer a penalty. Like Gultch said, just monster truck it. Admittedly I haven't yet had the opportunity to try a modern ebike but I've seen some vids of guys shredding on them and the riders say the extra weight is actually an advantage in many ways.


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## richj8990 (Apr 4, 2017)

I don't find 20 lbs extra a problem (even pushing the bike up something steeper) except on a steeper downhill trail or dirt/gravel road, and then all of a sudden the bike becomes too much to handle. Not in one way, in multiple ways: brakes are not good enough, bike suddenly feels top-heavy, handling is worse downhill, etc. I do not feel these things when going up, on level ground, or on slight 3-6% downhill grades. It's only when it gets over a 10% downhill grade (on dirt/gravel, not on pavement) that the extra weight of the bike starts to really be an issue.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

leeboh said:


> How does that work for a log that is 6-12" in the middle of the trail? Or a 1 ft rock ledge you need to get the front wheel up and on top? Happens all the time on most of my rides.


For sure it is harder.

Any kind of front wheel lift requires more energy so one needs to build up the triceps and the shoulders. Also a more pronounced rear weight shift is good to get the front wheel up. It is a hard to thing for most riders on their first ebike rides.

One can use the motor to get the front wheel up as well. And bump jump the log to get over it with a little boost.

And when there's a fallen tree to traverse, or getting the bike on a truck or bike rack, leverage and big motions are key. And reps will build up the body.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Van Cuz said:


> It's not simple, and I'm no expert, but some of the factors I see having an impact to the ride quality of eMTB are:
> 
> Higher sprung to unsprung mass ratio. The extra weight of an eMTB frame means that the suspension will be more efficient at reducing the transfer of bump force to the frame and the rider. This is being identified in reviews as better feeling suspension and more cornering grip.
> 
> ...


very good IMHO.


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## tuckerjt07 (Nov 24, 2016)

fc said:


> So most ebikes today are 20 lbs heavier than their normal bike equivalent. The 50 lb bike does indeed feel much heavier than a 30 lb bike and the riding experience is quite different/compromised.
> 
> To counter this, ebike manufacturers have used:
> - bigger brakes and brake rotors
> ...


I don't have the math for it but there was another thread where we discussed it.

For your body you have micro-control, compared to a bike, due to muscles and connective tissue over how it is impacted by changes in acceleration. You also have subconscious muscle memory helping to mitigate those effects almost as soon as they occur.

With weight on the bike there are two negative factors caused by the same issue. A heavier object is more resistant to changes in acceleration. There are also only five contact points so there is much less fine control over the bike. When the rider attempts to lean the bike for a turn the bike will fight them more than a lighter bike. Likewise whenever the bike encounters anything that attempts to push it out of a straight line the heavier bike is going to require more energy to bring back onto course. Yes, a lighter bike is more likely to be deflected but not only can it be corrected with less energy it's also more influenced by the rider's momentum dragging it back on course than a heavier bike.

I haven't really thought about a pack but I would think it would be due to the fact that the weight is higher up and that it has the potential to move more than the body.

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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Rotating weight, Sprung and unsprung weight make huge difference to bike performance. 

The E Bike can potentially be going faster on a given track so in needs to be have beefier gear. 

To make a standard bike climb well you reduce weight. It requires you to compromise tires, brakes wheels and suspension so the bike can be lighter and easier to climb. If your climbing is E assisted you no longer need to compromise those components. You might as well run bigger brakes, tires and suspension. 


Plus there will be additional forces put through the frame, drive train, brakes, wheels, suspension due to the additional power and speed that can be produced. All that adds up to is a requiring more robust components. 


Lastly, Any given component is designed to withstand a certain load before failing. There will be a safety factor specified from working load to yeild or failure point. When you increase the maximum working load you need to increase the strength of the component to retain the same safety factor.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

tuckerjt07 said:


> I don't have the math for it but there was another thread where we discussed it.
> 
> For your body you have micro-control, compared to a bike, due to muscles and connective tissue over how it is impacted by changes in acceleration. You also have subconscious muscle memory helping to mitigate those effects almost as soon as they occur.
> 
> ...


Very good, thank you.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Ha, ha, yeah, the extra weight is such an advantage, I'm thinking about filling my non ebike frame with sand so I can ride better 

If you watch a video of a good rider playing with an ebike, the extra weight is very obvious.

No, extra weight on a bike sucks and there's no way to turn that disadvantage into an advantage unless you're using the bike as a boat anchor.



J.B. Weld said:


> More power means more suspension, heavier tires, etc. are no longer a penalty. Like Gultch said, just monster truck it. Admittedly I haven't yet had the opportunity to try a modern ebike but I've seen some vids of guys shredding on them and the riders say the extra weight is actually an advantage in many ways.


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## Van Cuz (Jun 24, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Ha, ha, yeah, the extra weight is such an advantage, I'm thinking about filling my non ebike frame with sand so I can ride better
> 
> If you watch a video of a good rider playing with an ebike, the extra weight is very obvious.
> 
> No, extra weight on a bike sucks and there's no way to turn that disadvantage into an advantage unless you're using the bike as a boat anchor.











https://m.vitalmtb.com/features/Orange-Bikes-at-Eurobike-2018,2458

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> Ha, ha, yeah, the extra weight is such an advantage, I'm thinking about filling my non ebike frame with sand so I can ride better


I'm just going by what the guys on EMBN are saying, admittedly I know nothing. Of course you don't want extra weight on a bike you have to pedal with 100% human power but they (embn) were saying that ~38-43 pounds seems about optimum for ebikes and that the extra weight helps keep the bike planted at high speeds. They have some good riders on that channel and they chuck those bikes around pretty good.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> Ha, ha, yeah, the extra weight is such an advantage, I'm thinking about filling my non ebike frame with sand so I can ride better
> 
> If you watch a video of a good rider playing with an ebike, the extra weight is very obvious.
> 
> No, extra weight on a bike sucks and there's no way to turn that disadvantage into an advantage unless you're using the bike as a boat anchor.


I think a lot of it depends on the terrain, I.E traction. When the bike has a planted feel, you will tend to ride faster because it's not dancing and completely settled. JMO. I'm betting my 29er Focus and your wife's Levo feel like night and day difference. I've owned 3 Levo's. Great ebikes though.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Van Cuz said:


> https://m.vitalmtb.com/features/Orange-Bikes-at-Eurobike-2018,2458
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Nice looking bikes.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

For sure, the extra weight has contributed to the large number of flats I've gotten on the Full FatSix in the 5600 miles of riding on and off road. That's been the number one big negative in my ownership Other than that, the extra weight adds a nice feeling of solid stability which I just like. For those inclined to do jumps and log hopping, I can understand their striving for lighter weight. I'm just not that kind of bike rider.















Then we come to this downed tree after a winter storm. With no where to get around but up and over; I got to feel every pound of the Haibike, lifting it up, on top and over this tree covered in poison ivy vine growth.

To make matters worse, I left the battery lock key at home....


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Niether. 
In your body for the win.
Yesterday I found a nice spot to eat my hoagie and decided it nice enough to go ahead and drink my two pack tall boys as well. Man did my pack feel lighter getting back on the trail! No perceived extra weight in my body though.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

^👍that’s what it about! Enjoying your time.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I'm sure they do, but that's no different than any bike, e or non-e.

The Levo FSR is fine, my wife likes it more than me, we won't sell it until something really good comes out. I'm a bit more picky and my riding is more aggressive and technical.

Our next ebike will be a "shared" bike, one that I can use for doing crazy climbing rides that are a hike-a-bike without e-power.

Nothing wrong with hiking a bike, but sometimes I prefer to ride 



Gutch said:


> I think a lot of it depends on the terrain, I.E traction. When the bike has a planted feel, you will tend to ride faster because it's not dancing and completely settled. JMO. I'm betting my 29er Focus and your wife's Levo feel like night and day difference. I've owned 3 Levo's. Great ebikes though.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm sure they do, but that's no different than any bike, e or non-e.
> 
> The Levo FSR is fine, my wife likes it more than me, we won't sell it until something really good comes out. I'm a bit more picky and my riding is more aggressive and technical.
> 
> ...


The only thing noticeably better than the old Levo at the same price is the new Levo.

And it is much much better


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

leeboh said:


> Weight on the bike makes it less easy to move around, like a wheel loft and can you even do a bunny hop with a 50lb bike?












You need to change your technique once you have a motor and the associated weight.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

With plenty of power and skill these guys are bunny hopping 200# bikes with 6' vert.






So it really comes down to skills and power to weight (Of both rider and machine separately and rider/machine combined)

Don't expect too much from a legal "Class" electric bicycle, but with proper technique I'd expect a skilled rider to be able to match or exceed a "plain" bicycle in regards to hopping the bunny.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2018)

fc said:


> So most ebikes today are 20 lbs heavier than their normal bike equivalent. The 50 lb bike does indeed feel much heavier than a 30 lb bike and the riding experience is quite different/compromised.
> 
> To counter this, ebike manufacturers have used:
> - bigger brakes and brake rotors
> ...


When you're fat, old, and lazy...I don't think it matters.


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