# Nashbar 853 frame



## robinmiller (May 31, 2005)

Just saw this in the latest catalog - thought it was kind of cool. I don't know about geometry specifics, but it looks like a classic high end steel frame, reissued as a 'generic' and with a few modern updates like disc brake support. I noticed it has some nice touches like the forward facing seat binder slot, low top tube, and Ritchey dropouts. Somebody obviously put some thought into it. It kinda looks like a copy of some early-mid 1990s steel Rocky Mountain frames.

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...nd=&sku=17655&storetype=5&estoreid=&pagename=

Anyone tried one? The price isn't cheap but seems reasonable.


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

Mmmmm... those are pretty. Anyone ridden one?


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## SpinWheelz (May 3, 2004)

The beauty of those frames is that in about 6 months or so, they'll probably be cleared out at around $200.


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

Probably. I'd pay that for one.


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## WTB-rider (Jul 25, 2004)

Just saw those today myself, they look pretty nice and you can't beat the color. Wonder who's building them.


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## steve v (Apr 11, 2005)

I saw it as well, 853 main triangle, doesn't say what the other tubes are. I had been looking at the cross and commuter frames too. Unfortunately, anything that I have ever bought that was Nashbar brand turned out to be crappy, even for the low price.


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## robinmiller (May 31, 2005)

yeah, just the main triangle is 853, but it is the _main_ triangle


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Yeah, those frames are GUARANTEED to grace these pages in 10 years time.

ut:


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## robinmiller (May 31, 2005)

Thylacine said:


> Yeah, those frames are GUARANTEED to grace these pages in 10 years time.
> 
> ut:


...Huh?


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

classic high end frame? isn't it a bit of a stretch? a well made steel frame sounds more reasonable.. i read that frame is 4.5 lbs. classic high end 853 would be a 3.50 lbs.


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## 20_bandh (May 19, 2004)

robinmiller said:


> ...Huh?


they really will be, Thylacine aint kidding !


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## Boy named SSue (Jan 7, 2004)

colker1 said:


> classic high end frame? isn't it a bit of a stretch? a well made steel frame sounds more reasonable.. i read that frame is 4.5 lbs. classic high end 853 would be a 3.50 lbs.


The weights are listed under more info. 4.66# for a 15.5" to 5.15# for a 21". porky things.

3.5# would be pretty light even for the good stuff. 4# is a prett good frame weight for riders over 170#.


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## FatTrackie (Jun 7, 2004)

*weight is about right*

Looking at the Rocky Mountain Blizzard 853 main triangle and unstated rear triangle it says 4.4 pounds for an 18

http://www.simonsbikeshop.com/Robson_Shop/2005/blizzard.htm

The geometry numbers look exactly the same too. Wonder if they are made in the same place?

Anybody else notice that it has v-brake studs, but rear brake cable routing for full cable housing (discs) only.

The 2003 Salsa Ala Carte (Reynolds 853) says a very round (4lbs) and does not break down the sizes. Plus the Nashbar is not much more expensive retail than the salsa's were dealer cost.

Jensen's Zion 853 frames range in weight from 4.3 to 4.85 lbs.
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/FR410A01-Zion+660+Frame.aspx
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/FR410A01-Zion+660+Frame.aspx

Hope this help clear some things up.

FT


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## salsarider (Jan 20, 2006)

The weight is actually consistent with other 853 frames. I have a 21" Salsa Ala Carte that weighs in at 5.6 pounds for the frame. If you find an honest weight for a Blizzard it is in the same ball park. Even a very high end steel frame like an Indy Fab fractionally lighter. Steel is what it is when it comes to weight.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

853 is NOT a good tubeset for making light frames out of. End of story. Oh for the days of Tange Prestige Ultimate Superlight still.

Why isn't 853 a good tubeset for that? Simple... its got crappy butting profiles and wall dimensions, and nobody draws thinwall small diameter tubing in it which is what you'd need to make the stays. Let us not forget, 853 is simply reynold's trademarked name for butted 4340 chromoly steel.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Let us not forget, 853 is simply reynold's trademarked name for butted 4340 chromoly steel.[/QUOTE]

i don't think so.. 853 is chromoly w/ different properties than good old 4130. it toughens when heated while the predecessors would weaken. this is so banal and all over the web it surprises me to read your line.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

I said 4340, not 4130. Heck, you even quoted me saying 4340.

There's a LOT of chromoly steels. 4340 happens to be the air hardening one. Its common in the auto racing industry as well as general aviation. You make roll cages and aircraft fuselages from it. When you weld a roll cage structure into a nascar stock car body shell, it makes it inconvenient to then stick it into an oven to do post-weld stress relieving and heat-treatments. It takes a VERY big oven to do it. The only thing new to 4340 has been the relatively recent move by companies like true temper and reynolds making butted tubesets with it (avaition and auto racing have always used straight gauge tubing).

I say relatively recent because 5 years in bikes is relative to several decades in aviation and auto racing.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> I said 4340, not 4130. Heck, you even quoted me saying 4340.
> 
> There's a LOT of chromoly steels. 4340 happens to be the air hardening one. Its common in the auto racing industry as well as general aviation. You make roll cages and aircraft fuselages from it. When you weld a roll cage structure into a nascar stock car body shell, it makes it inconvenient to then stick it into an oven to do post-weld stress relieving and heat-treatments. It takes a VERY big oven to do it. The only thing new to 4340 has been the relatively recent move by companies like true temper and reynolds making butted tubesets with it (avaition and auto racing have always used straight gauge tubing).
> 
> I say relatively recent because 5 years in bikes is relative to several decades in aviation and auto racing.


sorry.. my mistake. loss of sleep made me a lousy reader.


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## robinmiller (May 31, 2005)

20_bandh said:


> they really will be, Thylacine aint kidding !


I was just confused as to why he (and you) would so sarcastically disparage this frame. Unless there is something we are all missing, it seems pretty comparable to Salsa and Rocky Mountain's steel frames, at least from specs and appearance.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

robinmiller said:


> I was just confused as to why he (and you) would so sarcastically disparage this frame. Unless there is something we are all missing, it seems pretty comparable to Salsa and Rocky Mountain's steel frames, at least from specs and appearance.


new salsa and rocky mountain are not in the same league as IF, vicious, rock lobster, sycip, soulcraft. those are classic high end bikes.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

If you want real Canadian Steel, pony up for a True North. If you long for a real Salsa, get a Soulcraft. That's all I'm sayin'.

Continuing this discussion here is like dropping a turd into my champagne. Please stop it.


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## holycromoly (Aug 11, 2004)

Does look like a nice frame, with non-Genesis geometry.

I think SpinWheelz is right, give this frame another 4 months and you'll see the price drop and then combine it with a discount code and bam, a nicely priced 853 frame. I'd wait til the price drops personally. You can get a nice SOMA Groove 631/Tange Prestige hardtail frame for around $290. I'll keep an eye on this Nashbar frame for a buddy bike if the price drops.


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## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

They are kidding themselves with that price. I see really nice yo eddy frames sell for less every day...


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## robinmiller (May 31, 2005)

It's a bit high for a no-name, but then again I was just looking at the repro Mountain Goats, and they are $1,100 each. I wonder if anybody could tell the difference, riding with their eyes closed? (that is, before they smacked into a tree )


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## holycromoly (Aug 11, 2004)

I agree about that price. Seems like typical Nashbar style where they initially release a frame a high price and then reduce the price over the next 8 months...

I think Jensen's towards the end was selling their 853 frame for around $300, I imagine this Nashbar frame dropping around that price eventually.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

robinmiller said:


> It's a bit high for a no-name, but then again I was just looking at the repro Mountain Goats, and they are $1,100 each. I wonder if anybody could tell the difference, riding with their eyes closed? (that is, before they smacked into a tree )


there is no difference. buy the nashbar


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

The thing is, 853 isn't THAT special of a tubeset to justify the pricetag. Ok... so its double-butted 4340 chromoly.... the frames just aren't that light because they don't draw as thinwall of tubes as you used to see in the upper Tange prestige tubesets, or stuff from Columbus or for that matter, the now rare to find (though still available, if you're willing to order it) Aermet 100 tubing. I'd much rather buy that basic double-butted 4130 frame they have that's $70 than one of their 853 frames. The weight difference will be neglible.

4340 is a nice steel to use if you don't have any way to heat-treat a structure after welding, which is fine when you've just welded an aircraft frame from it or the roll cage you just welded INTO your rally car, but for bicycles, it wasn't really needed to go and develop a way to draw butted tubesets from it if you were only going to be able to draw the larger diameters used in main tubes. You still have to use either a straight gauge and thickwall 4340 for the stays, or conventional 4130 stays.


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## L-Train (Apr 28, 2006)

*Not To Hyjack This Thread, But,*



DeeEight said:


> ....Aermet 100 tubing...


Anyone know of any Aermet frames available? A buddy of mine had an Arrow circa 1993 and I'd love to find something like that.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

lucifer said:


> They are kidding themselves with that price. I see really nice yo eddy frames sell for less every day...


like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/Fat-Chance-Yo-E...ryZ72571QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## grawbass (Aug 23, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> The thing is, 853 isn't THAT special of a tubeset to justify the pricetag. Ok... so its double-butted 4340 chromoly.... the frames just aren't that light because they don't draw as thinwall of tubes as you used to see in the upper Tange prestige tubesets, or stuff from Columbus or for that matter, the now rare to find (though still available, if you're willing to order it) Aermet 100 tubing. I'd much rather buy that basic double-butted 4130 frame they have that's $70 than one of their 853 frames. The weight difference will be neglible.
> 
> 4340 is a nice steel to use if you don't have any way to heat-treat a structure after welding, which is fine when you've just welded an aircraft frame from it or the roll cage you just welded INTO your rally car, but for bicycles, it wasn't really needed to go and develop a way to draw butted tubesets from it if you were only going to be able to draw the larger diameters used in main tubes. You still have to use either a straight gauge and thickwall 4340 for the stays, or conventional 4130 stays.


What about True Temper OX Platinum? Is that available with double butted stays?


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Check the true temper website... OX Gold and Platinum is just butted 4340 also.

As to aermet frames, Arrow does still have aermet tubesets and will build a frame using them for special orders, and I think TrueNorth may have some tubesets still also. Check Curtlo too as they also had aermet frames in production. I've emailed with Carpenter Technologies to see if the tubing is available and they'll happilly sell the stuff still to anyone who wants it, even in the small diameters and thin walls used for bike frames.


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## robinmiller (May 31, 2005)

colker1 said:


> there is no difference. buy the nashbar


Oops, did i hit a nerve? It was an honest question.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

robinmiller said:


> Oops, did i hit a nerve? It was an honest question.


it was an honest answer. you asked if anyone could point the differences between both bikes, differences that could justify the price difference. 
if you can't see the difference , there is no difference.. seriously. 
there is a subtle, subjective difference. it's an almost spiritual difference. a difference of taste.
to me, the nashbar is generic and doesn't make me love the bike. i need to know who built my frame, what are his tastes and his vision of mountain biking. it makes me happy, it's a necessity and an upgrade in a dull, industrialized, scientific, unhappy society. it's my way of going against it. my bike is my soul. my right against wrong. when i clean a dropout or a difficult climb, i battle the good fight. my bike is my sword and my shinning armour. 
this is mountain biking to me.. it should not be for everybody. i am different.


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## robinmiller (May 31, 2005)

colker1 said:


> it was an honest answer. you asked if anyone could point the differences between both bikes, differences that could justify the price difference.
> if you can't see the difference , there is no difference.. seriously.
> there is a subtle, subjective difference. it's an almost spiritual difference. a difference of taste.
> to me, the nashbar is generic and doesn't make me love the bike. i need to know who built my frame, what are his tastes and his vision of mountain biking. it makes me happy, it's a necessity and an upgrade in a dull, industrialized, scientific, unhappy society. it's my way of going against it. my bike is my soul. my right against wrong. when i clean a dropout or a difficult climb, i battle the good fight. my bike is my sword and my shinning armour.
> this is mountain biking to me.. it should not be for everybody. i am different.


Well, that's a much better answer. I didn't say, by the way, that i could see no difference. I just asked if it would ride any less nicely than an expensive 'collectible' frame. I'm not saying i wouldn't prefer a custom, handbuilt frame, but i'm not rich and i'm always interested to see if there is something that can give me a similar experience at a price i have a chance at affording.

I don't think you're that different though, colker1, at least, not in this forum...


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

robinmiller said:


> Well, that's a much better answer. I didn't say, by the way, that i could see no difference. I just asked if it would ride any less nicely than an expensive 'collectible' frame. I'm not saying i wouldn't prefer a custom, handbuilt frame, but i'm not rich and i'm always interested to see if there is something that can give me a similar experience at a price i have a chance at affording.
> 
> I don't think you're that different though, colker1, at least, not in this forum...




i'll give you an even better answer. i always wanted a yo eddy. it was expensive.. so i kept buying frames thta "had everything a yo had": steel, similar angles, even bought a litespeed obed.. just because i couldn't rationalize what i really wanted. mtn biking is not about rationalization.. it's about feel, being in tune w/ yourself and the earth. being fluid. about following your intuition.. if you feel like you want or need a certain bike, save the money and buy it. 
otoh, what do you expect when you ask in a vintage forum if a no name (literally) frame is the same sh!t as a classic, recreated w/ love and admiration? it's the same kind of rationalization that destroys the high end, custom bicycle industry. "why should i buy a custom made steel frame when a high tech carbon trek is $219 less"?


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## mosquitos (Feb 14, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> Check the true temper website... OX Gold and Platinum is just butted 4340 also.
> 
> As to aermet frames, Arrow does still have aermet tubesets and will build a frame using them for special orders, and I think TrueNorth may have some tubesets still also. Check Curtlo too as they also had aermet frames in production. I've emailed with Carpenter Technologies to see if the tubing is available and they'll happilly sell the stuff still to anyone who wants it, even in the small diameters and thin walls used for bike frames.


very interesting information, thanks :thumbsup: 
any ride reviews of a aermet tubed frame :???:


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## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

mosquitos said:


> very interesting information, thanks :thumbsup:
> any ride reviews of a aermet tubed frame :???:


As much as it may pain me to say, check to see if MBA has a review of the Arrow Aermet frame in their archive. They did do a review of the frame a few (several?) years back.

JmZ


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Mountain Biking reviewed an actual Arrow Aermet frame as I recall. I think MBA did a Curtlo.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

DeeEight said:


> I'd much rather buy that basic double-butted 4130 frame they have that's $70 than one of their 853 frames. The weight difference will be neglible.


I wonder about that. My daughter has one of the 13" Nashbar steel MTB frames bought around 2 years ago and it weighs around 6.25 lbs.!

BTW, weren't these 853 frames $459 or $489 earlier? They're $399 now.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

The current nashbar steel frames for $70 aren't the same ones they had 2 years ago.


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