# Why?



## verve825 (Mar 16, 2005)

Or, rather, why bother? 

After thinking about this for several days, I feel compelled to speak my piece on the issue of so-called "electric-assist" bikes. While these "bikes" may have their place for commuters, in the city, etc., it seems to me- and many, many other avid mountain bikers with whom I've discussed this topic in the past week- that the very notion of an "electric-assist" mountain bike runs completely counter to the very substance and soul of the sport itself. (In fact, not one rider out of the dozen or so I've discussed this with, felt that "electric-assist" bikes are valid. Small sample size, perhaps, but still- not one.)

Modern life is only too full of conveniences that vie with each other in an effort to make our lives easier- almost always, trading value for speed and emptiness. 

Why bother to roast and brew your own coffee, when you can go stand in line at Starbucks and pay $4? Why learn how to bake, when you can pick up the phone and call in for a pizza made by people who don't care for their jobs, and are working for companies with dubious political agendas, such as Dominos? Why grow you own vegetables, when you can go buy washed, sprayed, antiseptic, tasteless produce imported from foreign countries at the cost great carbon emissions? 

Why bother to actually- gasp!- pedal your bicycle up and over, you know, rocks and roots and dirt and stuff, when you can use an "electric-assist" bike and breath easy? 

Why not just go to the fvcking gym and join a spin class?

I'm confident I will sway no one from their appreciation of "electric-assist' bikes, but from my perspective, "electric-assist" bikes are utterly asinine, have no place in mountain biking, and definitely no place in their own forum on MTBR (unless it's a craven attempt at generating ad dollars from "electric-assist" manufacturers). 

Regards,

jb


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

10 years ago there was this same attitude about 29" wheels. And years before that the very MTB's that this site is based on. How about indexed shifting, suspension, and on and on. Change happens, albeit slowly. Try to not let it bother you.

BTW I do agree that electric assist MTB's are not a great idea and there really is very little focus at this time on them actually as far as I can see. But motor assist bikes do have their place in the urban environment and will be showing up more and more there. Perhaps a better venue for an e forum would be on the Road Bikes side but there is a commuter section here and a cargo bike one also. I would suppose because there is perhaps a little more spirit of live and let live amongst the MTB crowd?

If there is advertising money involved that it what is keeping the lights on and should be of little concern to the users here that log on for free.

As I stated before there seems to be little focus on e mtb's but there is some, from Croatia with love. http://www.greyborg.com/oldpage/yndex.html

But hey, it could be worse.


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## rdhfreethought (Aug 12, 2006)

verve825 said:


> Or, rather, why bother?
> 
> Why not just go to the fvcking gym and join a spin class?
> Regards,
> ...


Your ignorance and stupidity is nauseating.

Ever think that maybe there are people that are not like you on this planet? Some of them are amputees. Some are senior citizens with artificial knees. Some have arthritis so bad they are in pain every day. Some have choreoform dyskinesias that do not allow them to safely balance and pedal standard bicycles.

Just because your close association with slovenly behavior postulates the association that people who are trying to build electric assist bikes is only due to their own inherent laziness speaks volumes about the kind of person you are. It says nothing about the people actually trying to accomplish this.

Take your neanderthal wit and misguided notions of your own physical capacities back to the dark cave from whence you came. And let the engineers, dreamers, and handicapped veterans that designed, built, and safeguarded this country (for you) do their thing and push the envelope of what is possible. And leave your pithy words in your own closeted mind.


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## Ricisan (Aug 30, 2006)

*Paying the Price?*

The image of an out of shape person blitzing the trails on an E bike is laughable. They won't have the tech skills to ride the trails nor the desire. 
People who are out of shape or handicapped in some way need help of some kind to function better. Who has a problem w/that? There might be someone who tries some tech riding, but the majority will have little interest in getting very far from pavement/paths. 
That is why they are out of shape in the first place.
We can't have it both ways. Either we want more people on bikes "of any kind", or we want to be elitist and discriminatory. To me getting half a million bikes on the road and an equal number off the road seems to be the common goal.
Are those that climb Everest w/guide ropes lesser in their accomplishment than those that don't, what about using O2? How about suspension, is that for sissies? Perhaps we should all go back to ridgid SS? 
We need to take pride in our own accomplishments and quit worrying about what others are doing! JMHO

R


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

E-bikes are akin to row boat racing using outboard motors, football with golf carts, fishing with dynamite, jogging with a car, boxing with knives, tennis with an auto ball thrower, tour de France on a motorcycle, basketball on a 5 foot court cause running is hard....etc
Sorry but i agree that e-bikes have no place in MTB. Urban yes, but off road, no.
What about gas assisted MTBs. Then at what point will it just be a light weight dirt bike? And if I recall, motorized vehicles are prohibited on most hiking MTB trails.


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## Ricisan (Aug 30, 2006)

*Non-event?*

So here we are arguing about something that hasn't even happened yet?
In any form of contest there are rules/structure of some kind to make it a fair 
contest. Since when is riding for pleasure and fitness a contest?
If you want to make MTB trail off limits to E bikes and put them w/dirt motorcycles that's OK w/me. I doubt that a 500w assist will tear up the trails, but fair is fair.
On the return leg of a 40 mi ride I was off to the side whining and feeling sorry for myself. Along comes a roadie who is missing a leg and is clipped to his pedal. He rode by and all I could do was man up and get going. Would you deny him an assist if he wanted one?
I was passed on a Int ski run by an amputee skiier when I was a beginner. He had a small ski on his ski pole and needed no help. 
I can see the point is being made for situations that have not happened yet. I seriously doubt that anyone will buy an expensive MTB E bike so they can smoke people on the hills/trails. They will need tech skills that they don't have to get through the rough sections. That will keep the easy chair adventurers home or on roads. A motor will not help. I agree the real place for E bike is urban. Until more people see the benifit of an E bike, they will be a novelty at best. 
I still see an exclusionary attitude that I feel is inappropriate/elitist. What about an out of shape spouse that would like to come along on a ride? Should they be kicked to the curb until they a fit enough to keep up? I seriously doubt that anyone on an e bike for any reason will get the satisfaction that we get pedaling, and satisfaction is why we ride. JMHO

R


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## FBinNY (Nov 7, 2008)

Your question is misplaced.

Electric bicycles aren't about the *sport* of bicycling, They're about overcoming some of the barriers to cycling, that keeps folks from participating at all, and adding an alternative to the transportation options.

There are lots of folks that would ride more, but don't have the condition for longer trips, or live surrounded by hills that simply put too many routes beyond their abilities. If an electric bike means that they can now ride instead of drive to pick up their donuts on Sunday morning, getting an assist for part of the trip, what could be wrong with that?

Don't think of the electric assist as a some kind of cheating, but as an enabler bridging the very larg gap between a sedentary life and added excercise. Viewed that way, I can't see anything but good.


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## problematiks (Oct 18, 2005)

don't know about you, but when I think abotu E bikes, this picture springs to mind:








The point of recreation is exertion, right?
And to be honest I really don't see how your life becomes less sedentary by sitting on a E bike and let it do all the work.I do agree it has a place for disabled people for commuting, though.
But what the OP wanted to do is point out its value for MTBing.And the few prototypes of engine assisted freeride bikes I saw are just ridiculous as an idea, not to mention potentially harmful.These are not bikes aimed at skill-less couch potatoes.But they do enable riders access to more trails.Also multi-use trails where bikes like that aren't so welcome because they just do too much damage to the trails and potentially put other users in danger (just for the record, I do freeride among other things, too).Which can lead to trail closure in extreme cases, and nobody wants that.
And yes, if the oppinion that people should ride mountain bikes solely under their own power (which requires at least some basic fitness) means, I'm an elitist, then you can call me that.People tend to sit on their asses too much as it is, no need to enable a new kind of excuse to do it some more.
Before someone throws a fit again, I'm not talking about disabled here, that's a different story altogether.



Ricisan said:


> What about an out of shape spouse that would like to come along on a ride? Should they be kicked to the curb until they a fit enough to keep up?


No, you go slower to match their speed, stop a lot and show her/him how to tackle obstacles and such at their own pace.

Marko


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## Dr Feelygood ! (Jun 16, 2006)

Why not ?

Not everyone wishes for the same thing.

Not everyone fits the `norm`.

Choice can be good.


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## skyliner1004 (Jan 7, 2010)

i bet theres some losers out there (or in here, for that matter) that use electric bikes on trails that have no physical fitness that keep them from pedaling.


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## FBinNY (Nov 7, 2008)

skyliner1004 said:


> i bet theres some losers out there (or in here, for that matter) that use electric bikes on trails that have no physical fitness that keep them from pedaling.


*Some losers???? Who died and made you king*?

What difference to you is there if someone chooses to ride an electric assist bike, for whatever reason. It may not be your cup o' tea, but who are you to judge?

When I started riding seriously some 40+ years ago, everyone thought that any adult riding a bike for pleasure was demented, or just couldn't afford a car like the rest of society. Today cycling is somewhat chic, and the children (and grand children) of those who laughed at me 40 years ago, now feel it's OK to take cheap shots at someone using an electric bike.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Anyone that rides a bike, for any reason, road, mtb or otherwise, with or without power assist, is OK in my book, and deserves the respect and courtesy that cyclists *used to* afford each other.


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## skyliner1004 (Jan 7, 2010)

FBinNY said:


> *Some losers???? Who died and made you king*?
> 
> What difference to you is there if someone chooses to ride an electric assist bike, for whatever reason. It may not be your cup o' tea, but who are you to judge?
> 
> ...


nobody needs to die here. i'm also not looking for a new title.

There is no difference to me if someone chooses to ride an electric bike. But what difference to you is there if someone like me disagrees with it and makes a post about it? Who are you to judge what i think?

When i started riding 40+ days ago, riding an electric bike on the mountains for pleasure was demented, or just couldn't pedal a bike like the rest of society. (Not taking into account those disabled like in my last post)

When you're participating in the sport of lets say... basketball, do people create hoops that automatically move so that the ball has more chances of going in? That's demented, similar to using an electric bike to get over obstacles to give you more chances of getting over it.

At what point does it make riding a bike with a motor in it (aka motorcycle) okay?


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## ericpulvermacher (Nov 1, 2008)

I really think that electric assist bikes really are urban oriented to get more people out and riding. The more people there are riding two wheels instead of 4 the better.

For me as an able bodied person where I think there is potential for me is in supplementing power with a cargo bike. Believe me an 8% slope may be cake most of the time but add 200lb of cargo and you start thinking about walking.

I would not put a motor on a bike meant for the trials but for those who have a problem with because it means that people are cruising the trails without any exertion or exercise, just think, when is the last time that you came back from a good ride and your legs were the only sore part of your body. Trail riding with an e-bike might even be a great workout since you have a much heavier bike to throw around. Not the same thing but I know I am whipped after a day of snowmobiling and I don't even have the option of pedaling a sled.


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## FBinNY (Nov 7, 2008)

skyliner1004 said:


> nobody needs to die here. i'm also not looking for a new title.
> 
> *There is no difference to me* if someone chooses to ride an electric bike. But what difference to you is there if someone like me disagrees with it and makes a post about it? Who are you to judge what i think?
> 
> ...


*....Make it OK?*, Are they asking for your approval? Do they somehow need it? At what point does it matter either way?

I'm not challenging your right to your own opinion, and my opinion of it doesn't really matter, readers can draw their own inferences. But I'm not the one who characterized others as losers, you were. Bigotry comes in all forms, and isn't only about race. If you want to get respect, learn to give respect.

I agree that if this were about competition, everyone should play by the same rules, but cycling for the most part isn't about competition, and in any case electric bikes aren't made for that purpose.

The reality is that everyone rides for their own reasons at their own level of comfort, whatever that might be. If the use of an electric assist opens the sport to more people, so much the better, and if folks see the electric assist as a way to get outdoors and enjoy the roads and trails as we do, how does that make them losers?

Of course there's a certain irony in someone riding an electric bike for the exercise, but then again how many people walk to the fitness club, or ride their bikes to the trailhead, instead of putting it in a pickup and driving there. In fact not everyone rides for exercise, for many that's only a minor fringe benefit.

I'm not at all suggesting that electric bikes are a benefit for everyone, or that riding an electric assist bike is equivalent to sport riding, but I've yet to hear anything that justifies making a value judgment & demeaning the bikes or their users.


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

To all of you that are not seeing the whole motor assist issue I sure hope that you ride to every trailhead and never load your bike in to a car or truck. Because whenever you do you are engaging in motor assist bicycling. 

Yesterday I had a great e assist ride. 40 miles in a little over two hours on some very scenic town and country roads that were not at all flat. It was a beautiful day. I have a 14 spd drivetrain and 52/47 700c tires pumped to 40 and never dropped below my 80" gear and stayed primarily in a 110" gear and pedaled the whole way. Got to the edge of a sweat and stayed there. Normally I hate riding on roads but my setup gets me out there and doing some speed training while the trails are not that good that I normally may pass on.

Used about 7 amp hours of my battery pack which is less than $.50 of electricity to replace. By using the fatter tires I was able to ride the side no matter what amount of detritus was scattered there with immunity also. 

And yes I am in good enough shape to do so manually and have before and will again. So why do I use motor assist? Because I can.


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## skyliner1004 (Jan 7, 2010)

MABman said:


> To all of you that are not seeing the whole motor assist issue I sure hope that you ride to every trailhead and never load your bike in to a car or truck. Because whenever you do you are engaging in motor assist bicycling.
> 
> Yesterday I had a great e assist ride. 40 miles in a little over two hours on some very scenic town and country roads that were not at all flat. It was a beautiful day. I have a 14 spd drivetrain and 52/47 700c tires pumped to 40 and never dropped below my 80" gear and stayed primarily in a 110" gear and pedaled the whole way. Got to the edge of a sweat and stayed there. Normally I hate riding on roads but my setup gets me out there and doing some speed training while the trails are not that good that I normally may pass on.
> 
> ...


nope, i dont ride to my trailhead. i DO ride my mountain bike on the mountains though. i dont use a motored cycle on the mountain. Thats not mountain biking, thats motor cycling. I would laugh at those who ride with a motor on their bicycle. just like i'd laugh at those who use motors on skateboards, or roller blades; or those who go hunting with a rocket launcher or fishing with guns. It defeats the purpose of the sport, unless you're disabled like i said


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

skyliner1004 said:


> nope, i dont ride to my trailhead. i DO ride my mountain bike on the mountains though. i dont use a motored cycle on the mountain. Thats not mountain biking, thats motor cycling. I would laugh at those who ride with a motor on their bicycle. just like i'd laugh at those who use motors on skateboards, or roller blades; or those who go hunting with a rocket launcher or fishing with guns. It defeats the purpose of the sport, unless you're disabled like i said


Well ok then, have a nice day


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## newaccount (Jan 3, 2007)

If you ride an e-bike on my trails, you better bring power tools on trail work days.


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## Ricisan (Aug 30, 2006)

*Lots of Rehab!*

I spend a lot of time in the gym trying to keep my damaged parts as functional as possible. I circut train so I can get as complete a workout as possible in short time.
I can't believe how many people are more involved w/phone/I pod/other elect device
than the weights or machine they are occuping. Not only that but they get an attitude when I ask if I can work in. Sometimes they are just sitting and talking on the phone. 
If they just shut up and worked out, they would be in far better condition than they are in.

What is the moral of this story?
These people are not to be taken seriously.
What they do is not my concern, it is none of my business! It is their loss.
I cannot let what they do distract me from what I have to do!
If some clown wants to ride up and down hills that are killing the real MTB cyclist, so be it. It is to his/hers shame if they have any. They don't matter, to me at least.

Any yes they should bring power tools and run back for extra stuff that was left behind.
Buying the beer after would also be mando! 

R


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## Ericmopar (Aug 23, 2003)

I can see this will be a future issue on the trails. 
I've seen a couple of electric bikes on one of our local bike paths and they can get up to small motor bike speeds. As technology develops, they will end up banning them from trails that motorcycles are already banned on. 
I don't mind them on the bike paths that are paved, but I wouldn't want to be dodging them on our trail system. 
One older man (70s) blows by without much room and no warning at all. He's as bad as the moto riders that poach the local paths. 
I know that, not all the electric bike owners will behave this way, but it sure makes a person start to think.

I tend to think this belongs at Road Bike Review, or as a commuter forum subject.


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

MABman said:


> To all of you that are not seeing the whole motor assist issue I sure hope that you ride to every trailhead and never load your bike in to a car or truck. Because whenever you do you are engaging in motor assist bicycling.
> 
> Yesterday I had a great e assist ride. 40 miles in a little over two hours on some very scenic town and country roads that were not at all flat. It was a beautiful day. I have a 14 spd drivetrain and 52/47 700c tires pumped to 40 and never dropped below my 80" gear and stayed primarily in a 110" gear and pedaled the whole way. Got to the edge of a sweat and stayed there. Normally I hate riding on roads but my setup gets me out there and doing some speed training while the trails are not that good that I normally may pass on.
> 
> ...


Some of you are missing the point of the OP.:madman: 
What you did was ride on the road, something of which this OP was NOT about.
This is about e-assist on a MOUNTAIN BIKE. Once you put a motor/engine on a MOUNTAIN BIKE, it becomes a small DIRT BIKE. And anyone can ask IMBA if motorized vehicles are permitted on MOUNTAIN TRAILS. I bet you a pretty penny that the answer is NO.
An e-assisted bike used on PAVEMENT should not be looked down upon as that is a mode of transportation, getting from A to B.
But MOUNTAIN BIKING is about getting from A to B with all the fun in between. 
Apples and oranges people.


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

the-one1 said:


> Some of you are missing the point of the OP.:madman:


Believe me, I didn't miss his point at all. I think you might have missed mine when I said that there is not much, if any, focus by the industry at this time on motor assist for off road use. Not sayin that won't change in the future but at this point it is pretty much road/path use oriented. There is one company out of Boulder called Optibike that is run by Paul Turner of Rock Shox fame's brother, with funding from Paul, that makes a bike that is FS and has some trail potential but at 8k plus a copy you won't be seeing many of them out there, and the ones that you do see will probably have some yuppie on it that IS totally missing the finer points of trail etiquette.

I guess my prior posts are just a clumsy attempt at trying to defuse the issue so that the folks on here don't get their chamois all in a wad over something that is not even an issue and trying to steer them towards something that may even be of benefit to them? And if not to them then to someone that they know and love. It is too bad that the powers that be here decided to put this forum in the MTBR forums but believe me it would fare even worse over in RBR Because as much as you all fear assist the roadies abhor the very idea of it and wadded chamois abound in that sector.

That said another point to consider is that many many miles of MOUNTAIN TRAILS are multi use and do include motored toys also. So it would be a hard sell to someone riding them with a motor assist bicycle to say they can't use those trails, IMBA or not. If a trail says "No Motorized Vehicles" then it is verbotten and they should stay off, pedals or not, just like their motored brothers.

Having pretty extensive experience with different types of motor assist bikes the thing that really turns me on about them is the pedals. If I wanted a motorcycle I would get one, but I like to pedal and consider my MAB's to be like tandems, with a bantam weight very, very fit stoker on tap at all times:thumbsup: I also have to say that if the right setup came along that had the features I thought would make it fun to ride offroad I would not turn down the chance to give it a beat. But within the parameters of motorized vehicular use in regards to terrain. And you can bet I will have it in the big chainring and cranking away because that is the essence of assist for me. YMSWV


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Seems to me if I am going to bother with a motor, I'll just get a scooter.

These assisted bikes seem like the worse of both worlds to me. A heavy/slow bike that turns into a slow electric scooter with uneven foot pegs.


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## johnlh (Aug 16, 2008)

*No difference to you...really?*

skyliner1004: nobody needs to die here. i'm also not looking for a new title.

There is no difference to me if someone chooses to ride an electric bike.

_Then why do you refer to them as losers?_

...But what difference to you is there if someone like me disagrees with it and makes a post about it? Who are you to judge what i think?

_Who are you to judge people who ride electric bikes?_

When you're participating in the sport of lets say... basketball, do people create hoops that automatically move so that the ball has more chances of going in? That's demented, similar to using an electric bike to get over obstacles to give you more chances of getting over it.

_Why do you have a problem with other people experiencing success? Did you know that some people play basketball on smaller courts, with lighter balls, and baskets that are height-adjusted? Also, at what point did electric-assited biking become a sport? I don't see any competitions being staged. Don't tell other people how to recreate or self-select functional transportation._

At what point does it make riding a bike with a motor in it (aka motorcycle) okay?
_At the same point that using a wheelchair, gears, or motocross bike were accepted_.


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## mojo28246 (Aug 8, 2007)

*Why not if that mean we'd attract more riders*

Either that or make the gradual trail more challenging. Most beginner get stuck riding fireroad because they are not in good enough shape to ride some steep hills to get to the fun singletrack. That does not mean that they don't have the skills to ride technical stuff. Quite a few times I've seen the opposite where some rider can climb steepest of hills but lack the descending skills to descend without damaging the trails.

Mountain biking takes a while to get into. The learning curve is steep enough for beginner or novice who's new to sport. It also take good bit of fitness level to be able to enjoy what's out there. There're so many skills to master and not to mention etiquettes and equipments. It's fine to have a "Purist mentality" if there're plenty of trails around and new ones popping up every weeks.

Unfortunately, we have the opposite problems. Mountain bikers are at the bottom of the food chain on the trails. We must yield to everyone and even that we still get blame for being there and messing up the trail.

I think the more riders we attract to the sport, the better off we would be as a community. We'd have stronger voice, and more net work we'd have. There're more Mountain biker than horse on the trails but yet we have less trail access than them, what's up with that.

I support the electric assist mountain bike because it would attract more people to our sport. The product would be more innovative, lighter, more features, and definitely cheaper. I'm not talking about the conversion of the front or rear wheel system that weight 50-60lbs. I'm talking about Optibike, Grubber assist stuffs. They would not damage the trail anymore than conventional bikes.

I also support bike parks because they know how to build facility that attract a lot of first timer and novice if not they'd be out of business. Check out Whistler, they'd probably cater to more beginners than experts. They know how to make fun trail for all fitness level. It not the same as public trail where fun trails usually reserve to advance to expert difficulty. Don't believe me check out the trail review section. Most of the fun trails are rated advance and experts. The beginner and novice trail is always flat and wide fireroads.

As long as they are pedal assist let them ride it on the trail. Let more people enjoy the sport even if they would pay less physical dues and having good times. It's about being out on the trail pedaling bicycles one day they'd get in better shapes and would do without any motorized assistance. 
Or dedicate more time and effort to build more challenging trails for beginners to encourage the growth of the sport that we love so much.

Best to all,


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## newaccount (Jan 3, 2007)

kapusta said:


> Seems to me if I am going to bother with a motor, I'll just get a scooter.
> 
> These assisted bikes seem like the worse of both worlds to me. A heavy/slow bike that turns into a slow electric scooter with uneven foot pegs.


In my city, an electric bike will work better than a scooter. No sweat arriving to work, no motorcycle license required, no registration, zero emissions, ability to use the bike lane, no gas fill ups, and no tune ups. It would work for me.


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## newaccount (Jan 3, 2007)

mojo28246 said:


> Either that or make the gradual trail more challenging. Most beginner get stuck riding fireroad because they are not in good enough shape to ride some steep hills to get to the fun singletrack. That does not mean that they don't have the skills to ride technical stuff. Quite a few times I've seen the opposite where some rider can climb steepest of hills but lack the descending skills to descend without damaging the trails.
> 
> Mountain biking takes a while to get into. The learning curve is steep enough for beginner or novice who's new to sport. It also take good bit of fitness level to be able to enjoy what's out there. There're so many skills to master and not to mention etiquettes and equipments. It's fine to have a "Purist mentality" if there're plenty of trails around and new ones popping up every weeks.
> 
> ...


This is lame (e-bikes for trails). These bikes are heavier than regular bike, which will cause more damage to trails than a conventional bike. It's ok, though. I doubt the wheels will hold up on most of the bike on the market anyway. Taking a spill with an e-bike will be fun and well deserved, OTB with 80 pound bike crashing down.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

newaccount said:


> In my city, an electric bike will work better than a scooter. No sweat arriving to work, no motorcycle license required, no registration, zero emissions, ability to use the bike lane, no gas fill ups, and no tune ups. It would work for me.


Same thing with an electric scooter.

I would not be surprised if electric bikes (or any power assisted bikes) don't get classified in the same category as scooters (if they are not already) if they begin to catch on.


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## canuckjgc (Jun 22, 2007)

The technology is pretty cool. MTB's are the only bikes that make sense for electric assist -- big wheels, fat tires, good suspension = a good ride (vs. a scooter with tiny wheels and terrible suspension). Plus if you ride in the fall/winter with slush and muck on commuter trails, a knobby MTB is the only way to go.

I enjoy watching the progress of this mode of MTB'ing and may even try it for the heck of it one day on an old MTB just for fun.


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## tls36 (Dec 10, 2005)

WTF?????????????????????? Why is right, if you want a motor to move your lazy ass get a motorcycle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Another douchebag thread.................................


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

tls36 said:


> WTF?????????????????????? Why is right, if you want a motor to move your lazy ass get a motorcycle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Another douchebag thread.................................


some americans are too fat to pedal, actually the technical term is not "some,""most" would be more statistically correct.


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## mojo28246 (Aug 8, 2007)

newaccount said:


> This is lame (e-bikes for trails). These bikes are heavier than regular bike, which will cause more damage to trails than a conventional bike. It's ok, though. I doubt the wheels will hold up on most of the bike on the market anyway. Taking a spill with an e-bike will be fun and well deserved, OTB with 80 pound bike crashing down.


_"I support the electric assist mountain bike because it would attract more people to our sport. The product would be more innovative, lighter, more features, and definitely cheaper. I'm not talking about the conversion of the front or rear wheel system that weight 50-60lbs. I'm talking about Optibike, Grubber assist stuffs. They would not damage the trail anymore than conventional bikes._"

FYI Gruber Assist is 1900 grams(4.19lbs) and produce assisted 250w retrofit into the seat tube of your bike. I can assure you that at $2400 each unit, you won't find it on the entry level bikes. It would be fitted on a high end FS bike that weight under 30lbs and with the complete retrofit the AM bike would weight in at 32-34 lbs hardly the difference to the mid price trail bike and further more with more speed on the climb and I'm not talking about 10-20mph I'm talking 5-8mph you can easily clear most rocks, logs and roots. It's always better with a bit more speed and safer as well. It will promote less damage than people who scratches there way too slow and can not clear it and end up making all kind of damage to the trails same goes with switchback.

As for the fitness are concern, it's a pedal assisted @250w you still have to pedal. It'd probably help you from hitting red line on the first climb. It just make a difference between hiking 5 miles climb and riding up. I think you still get all your work out in and not blowing up every 10min.

BTW, it's not about the weight of the bike. Some freeride bike weight more than 50lbs and the rider doing all kind of stunts and still not damage the trail. How about those shuttle run where some skill 200lbs plus rider just bomb downhill without damaging the trails. I do agree with you that E-bike that's not design for trail doesn't belong on the trail period. It not because it weight 80lbs though. On some trail I see rangers going up and down the trail on there SUV what does that do to the trail.

If there are ways to promote the sport to new comers I'm all for it, but calling someone who's taking interest in the sport fat, lazy a$$ just because they can't climb hills it just plain wrong. These are probably same snob that fly down hill disregarding the 15mph speed limit on the trail.

I ride my 30lbs bike up and down the trail but if there's something to help me up the climb you'd better believe I'd give it a try. It's suppose to be fun.


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## HellToupee (Jan 19, 2010)

kapusta said:


> Same thing with an electric scooter.
> 
> I would not be surprised if electric bikes (or any power assisted bikes) don't get classified in the same category as scooters (if they are not already) if they begin to catch on.


Most countries already define what an Ebike is, eg power weight limits etc.

I would get one for transportation not so much recreational reasons, i'ld buy a cheap low end bike and slap a kit on it, cheap easy way to get around that doesn't leave you all hot and sweaty.


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

mojo28246 said:


> _"_"
> 
> FYI Gruber Assist is 1900 grams(4.19lbs) and produce assisted 250w retrofit into the seat tube of your bike. .


Actually the Gruber is 200w as taken from their site. "the auxiliary drive, with its 200 watt of additional power".

200w (0.268204418 hp) at 30V is not much to start with and add in the friction from the bevel gear and heat buildup of the placement within the seattube, the weight of the battery and you end up with a power to weight ratio of 0.064029198720173. 200w/1900g (weight of unit, electronics and 4.5Ah 30V battery). Once again this is not taking in to affect drive unit friction etc. as mentioned above.

They say 45 minutes of time on the battery which isn't much fun factor either as you only get to use 80% of the Ah's because it is not good to totally drain a Li-Ion type battery before recharging so I doubt you would get that much from my experience. Even if you use it sparingly I don't think too many climbs, especially on the steep loose ones, you would be doing any less effort pedaling than normal. Maybe a little but hardly enough to justify the expense and complexity of the additional system.

A more workable type of system if you must think about it for use on a FS type bike is a midmount that keeps the COG low and you can plug in higher wattage motors. Ones like Francois mentioned from the RC industry would be really good for this type of setup. You get power to your drivetrain to utilize the bikes existing gear ratios also which is key. A power to weight ratio of 0.3 would not be hard to achieve with run times in the hrs. instead of minutes.

Here are a few pics of the concept. 
















This type of system is similar to what Optibike does but will be available in a much cheaper format in the near future.


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## newaccount (Jan 3, 2007)

mojo28246 said:


> _"I support the electric assist mountain bike because it would attract more people to our sport. The product would be more innovative, lighter, more features, and definitely cheaper. I'm not talking about the conversion of the front or rear wheel system that weight 50-60lbs. I'm talking about Optibike, Grubber assist stuffs. They would not damage the trail anymore than conventional bikes._"
> 
> FYI Gruber Assist is 1900 grams(4.19lbs) and produce assisted 250w retrofit into the seat tube of your bike. I can assure you that at $2400 each unit, you won't find it on the entry level bikes. It would be fitted on a high end FS bike that weight under 30lbs and with the complete retrofit the AM bike would weight in at 32-34 lbs hardly the difference to the mid price trail bike and further more with more speed on the climb and I'm not talking about 10-20mph I'm talking 5-8mph you can easily clear most rocks, logs and roots. It's always better with a bit more speed and safer as well. It will promote less damage than people who scratches there way too slow and can not clear it and end up making all kind of damage to the trails same goes with switchback.
> 
> ...


If you can't climb the hill, push the bike like a man.


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## mojo28246 (Aug 8, 2007)

Thanks for the correction it's been a while since I visited the website. Well, I figured that if I can somehow ride at about 60% I'd never redlining on the steep climb as long as I can ride in Zone3 I can ride all day and my muscle would be fresher as well. We're all can exploded power for a few second without dipping in to the reserve too much and the recovery would not even be an issue. 

Thanks for the pics and ideas I which more company would do the retrofit system to your existing bike. I like the optibike idea a lot although it's not the cheapest but someone is trying to fill the market with new ideas. I hope they do well I saw that there ltd edition for 2010 was already sold out. Good for them.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

mojo28246 said:


> Thanks for the pics and ideas I which more company would do the retrofit system to your existing bike.


why would they do that when bicycles are meant to be pedaled? if you can't pedal your bike, why not just remove the pedals and put a motor on it and there you'll have it, your own motorcycle. If your legs are too weak to pedal long distances or up hills, dont go places where they exist or push your bike up like everyone else.


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## tihsepa (May 15, 2009)

Smoking and cycling.


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## El Duderino X (Mar 11, 2010)

*It's a whole lot of "my way or the highway" eh?*

I dropped over forty pounds pedaling my ebike in the city (e-MTBing seems somewhat pointless to me).

Let me repeat that for the narrow- minded, the myopic, the linear-thinking and all those suffering a debilitating rectal-cranial inversion: I lost (ie worked off) over forty pounds riding an ebike. That was three years ago.

Not only did I keep the weight off but I dropped another twelve.

:ciappa:

If it would make all the poor sensitive souls with a bias towards ebikes feel better I could go back to driving my car. Hey! With all the money I've saved maybe I should get something with a 6.2L Hemi? Really give self-righteous non-electrified cyclists something to ***** about.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Kudos ED, I'm doing what you are did(doing right now) I lost 22lbs so far I nave about 23 more to go. I wish I have e-bike though. I'm doing it on the trail and I have a spinning bike at home that helps too. I agree that whatever get you out there and exercise is great. Furthermore, even when you are on an e-bike you still have to work your tail off. It's not a motocycles. 

I wish there are more e-mtb out there.

Good Job on your weight lost, it's inspiring.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

I've been thinking about this on occasion for some time and here's my conclusion.

If you add a motor of any kind to a bicycle, it then becomes a motorcycle and ceases to be a bicycle. Therefore, it is no longer allowed in the Bike Lane, the bike trail, the non-motorized off-road trails where 99.99999% of us ride.

I have nothing against motor assisted bikes or those who ride them. But lets face it, its a "motor"cycle.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

El Duderino X said:


> I dropped over forty pounds pedaling my ebike in the city (e-MTBing seems somewhat pointless to me).
> 
> Let me repeat that for the narrow- minded, the myopic, the linear-thinking and all those suffering a debilitating rectal-cranial inversion: I lost (ie worked off) over forty pounds riding an ebike. That was three years ago.
> 
> ...


You do realize you could have lost the same amount of weight in a year (or less) without the motor right?


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

6bobby9 said:


> I've been thinking about this on occasion for some time and here's my conclusion.
> 
> If you add a motor of any kind to a bicycle, it then becomes a motorcycle and ceases to be a bicycle. Therefore, it is no longer allowed in the Bike Lane, the bike trail, the non-motorized off-road trails where 99.99999% of us ride.


Good luck with that. Maybe you can start in Massachusetts and work your way West? I believe the Capitol is in Boston under a big gold domed structure, full of lawyers and politicians and they eagerly are awaiting your input.

As excerpted from Mass regs for motorized bicycles:

"Every person operating a motorized bicycle upon a way shall have the right to use all public ways in the commonwealth except limited access or express state highways where signs specifically prohibiting bicycles have been posted, and shall be subject to the traffic laws and regulations of the commonwealth and the regulations contained in this section, except that the motorized bicycle operator may keep to the right when passing a motor vehicle which is moving in the travel lane of the way, and the motorized bicycle operator shall signal by either hand his intention to stop or turn. *Motorized bicycles may be operated on bicycle lanes *adjacent to the various ways, but shall be excluded from off-street recreational bicycle paths."

As to that last as long as you don't have your motor on you are treated like a bicycle. There are efficient pedaling mab's that can do this and do so on a daily basis. Today a bike mechanic with 15 yrs. of experience never even figured out that my bike was motorized until I punched the throttle a few times and kicked up a little scratch. He really like how torquey it was underway:madmax: Now he wants to put an electric motor on his kiddie trailer. The point being that it could be very ez to weave mab's in to the current bike fabric if all just have open minds about it perhaps?

Look at it this way, think of mab's as a gateway drug to cycling?


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

MABman said:


> ................................... *Motorized bicycles may be operated on bicycle lanes *adjacent to the various ways, but shall be excluded from off-street recreational bicycle paths.".................................................


This is MTBR= Mountain Bike Review. They are excluded from off-street recreational paths, aka, dirt trails. As with most posters here, they have no place in the MTB world. I think we can all agree that in an urban environment, they are justified, but not for MTB use.


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## Ricisan (Aug 30, 2006)

*Way Too Soon!*

Here we are arguing about something that has't happened, or hasn't become a problem yet.
I wish we has so many people out of cars and on e bikes that this discussion was necessary! I really doubt that people who are so out of shape as to need an e bike will cause a problem on the trails/paths. The bikes are a little too heavy for that. 
E motorcycles are built to compete w/ICE motorcycles. apples/oranges are both fruit.

jmho


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## mojo28246 (Aug 8, 2007)

the-one1 said:


> This is MTBR= Mountain Bike Review. They are excluded from off-street recreational paths, aka, dirt trails. As with most posters here, they have no place in the MTB world. I think we can all agree that in an urban environment, they are justified, but not for MTB use.


This Thread is called Electric Assisted- There are people who express their idea and hopefully it will lead to somewhere so the sport would grow. I don't own any e-bike but I certainly want to keep my option open. Someday, someone would design something to fit the MTB need. The ultimate goal is to get people on a bicycle and go ride and I support it.

A lot of product and innovation is not accepted in the beginning and now it something we can't live without. These are components that make you go faster on the dirt up or down.
For example
Front Suspension fork- it was not a smash hit, but look at it now.
Full Suspension bike- Not many think that it would make it to the XC, but...
Adjustable Seatpost- Old school hate them. But people who use them just love them.

This is 2010 already, we are still using a primitive drive train, if we keep blocking ideas and innovations 20 years from now we'd still be using derailleurs, and that would be really sad.

My argument is as long as people are not using an e-motocross type bike but "power assist" type, why not they got out of the car and on to the road/ dirt whatever and start exercising. More people using the trail more chance that we'd get to keep the trail open.


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## HRCNICK11 (Oct 1, 2008)

While not for me I could totally see a grand father using one to take the grand kids out on the trail. I would have no problem with this what so ever. But I would have a problem with able bodied people blasting the trails with them mostly because I could see it getting out of hand and unsafe for other trail users.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

Which of you are so fat that u can't pedal your bike? Fess up. 
Or are you too weak to keep up with your friends? Fess up. 

Or u want to put a motor on your bicycle because you can't afford a real motorcycle?

Cmon, those of you who have one of these shits and aren't disabled, say somethin


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## the-one1 (Aug 2, 2008)

louisssss said:


> ........
> Cmon, those of you who have one of these shits and aren't disabled, say somethin


Kind of like seeing able bodied drivers with the handicapped placards parking in a handicap spot even though then can walk just fine.:madmax:


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

louisssss said:


> Which of you are so fat that u can't pedal your bike? Fess up.
> Or are you too weak to keep up with your friends? Fess up.
> 
> Or u want to put a motor on your bicycle because you can't afford a real motorcycle?
> ...


I just rode my gas bike 25 miles back home from my girlfriends this morning on a beautiful country road instead of taking my van. Took me 45 minutes. Rode my electric bike down there so I saved 50 miles at 15 mpg and got a decent workout in also because I pedal 95% of the time in the big ring. I am neither fat nor disabled, but I do have vision.

Take off your blinders boys and at least try and see what others do for a change instead of dismissing it out of hand because when the day comes that you get to ride one and you do and like it then you will feel like more than a fool than you present yourselves as here.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Sorry , as soon as you attach a motor to a bicycle it is no longer a bicyle .


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

MABman said:


> I just rode my gas bike 25 miles back home from my girlfriends this morning on a beautiful country road instead of taking my van. Took me 45 minutes. Rode my electric bike down there so I saved 50 miles at 15 mpg and got a decent workout in also because I pedal 95% of the time in the big ring. I am neither fat nor disabled, but I do have vision.
> 
> Take off your blinders boys and at least try and see what others do for a change instead of dismissing it out of hand because when the day comes that you get to ride one and you do and like it then you will feel like more than a fool than you present yourselves as here.


Dude, Just buy a scooter. It's cheaper, has better gas mileage and at least you'll look respectable.


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## Dictatorsaurus (Sep 11, 2009)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Sorry , as soon as you attach a motor to a bicycle it is no longer a bicyle .


That's why they're called "E-bikes", and not just "bikes". There are paddle boats, then there are motor-boats. Still both are boats.

Though I never imagine myself ever owning an E-Bike, it certainly serves a noble and innovative cause. There are old people, disabled people, long distance commuters and people with injuries who can't ride a regular bike.

As the technology evolves, more people will be able to ride and joy the freedom of being on two wheels without having to ride a motorbike or a scooter. The rider on an E-bike still has to pedal.

If a Fatso decides to get one to make things easier for himself, so be it, who the heck are we to judge? Everybody has the right to ride whatever they want without being looked down upon.


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

You guys will get it sometime. If you have ever ridden a mtn. bike, used suspension, rode 29" wheels, used tubleless tires etc. and champion their cause you are only following in the track of others before you that put in the effort to innovate and weren't afraid of public opinion.

Seems like the way it goes here is that when the big corps come out with a product that was the result of the ideas of others and get it made more cheaply overseas and the price gets to where you all can afford it then and only then does the product have your blessings. And even then there are plenty of haters left to bicker endlessly about whatever.

Some of us out here bike to the beat of a different drummer and will try just about anything to further the thrill of riding a bike and riding one like this one is a good start on the thrill factor I seek. This goes out to the guy who said to just get a scooter


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

^^ so you're either too weak/fat to ride the distance you need to go, or you can't afford a motorcycle. 

There are bicycles, then there are motorcycles. Just like there are paddle boats and motorboats. 

And that motorcycle looks ridiculous. No, i am not against technology, i love it my computers.


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## Dictatorsaurus (Sep 11, 2009)

louisssss said:


> ^^ so you're either too weak/fat to ride the distance you need to go, or you can't afford a motorcycle.
> 
> There are bicycles, then there are motorcycles. Just like there are paddle boats and motorboats.
> 
> And that motorcycle looks ridiculous. No, i am not against technology, i love it my computers.


lol loiussssssssssssssssssssssss you are quite the specimen. I pity those who are actually taking you seriously trying to reason with you. They obviously don't know you're the laughing stock of the forum.


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## louisssss (Jun 24, 2009)

Dictatorsaurus said:


> lol loiussssssssssssssssssssssss you are quite the specimen. I pity those who are actually taking you seriously trying to reason with you. They obviously don't know you're the laughing stock of the forum.


Whats so funny? Because some kid like you think so?
Want to know something funny? your name sounds like dick taker.


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## Dictatorsaurus (Sep 11, 2009)

louisssss said:


> Whats so funny? Because some kid like you think so?


Not only because I think so, but many others enjoy laughing at you:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=599022


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## mojo28246 (Aug 8, 2007)

*louisssss,You would not understand*

You should go away before turning this in to another non-sense pissing match. You don't have the depth to argue without throwing mom/pop or body parts.


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

Don't feed the troll boys, stoke the fire.









And I found this pic of a Louizzzz type I know captured luridly in the ultimate moment of religious zealousy.


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## finger51 (Jul 21, 2006)

verve825 said:


> Or, rather, why bother? $4? Why Dominos? Why emissions?
> Why gasp!- easy?
> Why a spin class?
> I'm confident I will sway no one from their appreciation of "electric-assist' bikes, but from my perspective, "electric-assist" bikes are utterly asinine, have no place in mountain biking, and definitely no place in their own forum on MTBR (unless it's a craven attempt at generating ad dollars from "electric-assist" manufacturers).
> ...


Why be concerned with what other people ride, wear, eat, sweat, drive, drink, listen to or fark?

Either stop judging others or remain a perpetual 7th grader.

/don't own one but could care less if others do


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## jimbowho (Dec 16, 2009)

When I was a kid, a famous movie producer Dude named Howard Hawks gave me a bicycle with a little motor attached to the rear wheel! I was in heaven! I hammered that thing for three years until it was beyond junk. I also check the mail on my Daughters electric scooter! She busted me doing hot laps around the pool and blackballed me forever. I like anything that's fun.


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## ilike29ers (Sep 13, 2007)

I rode an electric assist BionX piece on some trails that were covered in about 4-6" of snow with drifts. And that was pretty fun. 

BionX adds power based on the amount of power you put into the rear axle by using a strain gauge and some fancy computer programming. This gave me some extra power when the snow slowed me down to a halt. I would not have been able to ride the trails for another couple of months when the snow melted. Then I'd have to wait for them to dry. It was a fun time in Minnesota, in February. 

Have you ever been on a road ride, and had a tailwind? Is that cheating? I feel like most people picture these bikes as motorcycles, or dirtbikes, when they are "pedal-assist" systems that make it feel like you have a tailwind. I don't own one of these systems, but I'm all for getting people on bikes, however we can. I probably won't ever get one, but it was a fun ride in February.


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## dm1333 (Jun 27, 2010)

*You're right!*



> Or, rather, why bother?


Why bother coming into the Electric Assist Bicycle sub forum to complain about E-Bikes? I came here to see if this sub forum had any good info since I want to build a recumbent E-Bike. With knobbies so I can ride on dirt roads. Is your head ready to explode yet? Why don't you go to Democratic Underground and start crying about Obama or go to a gun forum and start bad mouthing guns? Sheesh!

(or you could just go for a ride)


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I hope they keep these off the singletrack and MTB trails...same way motos are kept out. Bike lanes, country paths, commuting, buzzing around...that's fine.


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## johnlh (Aug 16, 2008)

*I tried one today.*

My Aunt and Uncle just picked up two NOS 1999 E-bikes at a yard sale for $400. These things are a blast (you know what they say about mopeds:thumbsup: ).


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## verve825 (Mar 16, 2005)

dm1333 said:


> Why bother coming into the Electric Assist Bicycle sub forum to complain about E-Bikes?


Because, as AZ.MTNS so wisely put it, "Sorry , as soon as you attach a motor to a bicycle it is no longer a bicycle." They aren't bicycles. They don't qualify. And shouldn't be on a board that is devoted to mountain BIKING.

jb


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## skyliner1004 (Jan 7, 2010)

anything thats powered on electricity, or have any type of bulshit electric assist is no longer a bicycle. It is now a motored bicycle and must follow MOTORCYCLE laws. Which means stay off bike lanes, stay off trails that dont allow MOTORCYCLES.


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## Killertofu (Jul 2, 2010)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Sorry , as soon as you attach a motor to a bicycle it is no longer a bicyle .


technically it is. motorcycle guys get kinda perturbed when you refer to their toys as bicycles


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## skyliner1004 (Jan 7, 2010)

MABman said:


> Don't feed the troll boys, stoke the fire.
> 
> View attachment 528108


is that a picture of your fat ass? no wonder you need a motor to help you pedal something as easy as a bicycle. better watch those burgers, your days are about to be up.


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## dm1333 (Jun 27, 2010)

> Because, as AZ.MTNS so wisely put it, "Sorry , as soon as you attach a motor to a bicycle it is no longer a bicycle." They aren't bicycles. They don't qualify. *And shouldn't be on a board that is devoted to mountain BIKING.*
> jb


Beer 
Commuter
Cyclocross
urban/DJ/park
politico-socio-economic-religion

Have you been complaining to the people who run MTBR.com about these sub forums? Have you been on these sub forums telling people that they shouldn't be here because this is a board devoted to mountain BIKING? Do you go on the Kansas subforum and tell those people they shouldn't be here since this is a board devoted to MOUNTAIN biking? If you are I'll give you points for consistency. Otherwise it seems you are just whining about a pet peeve.


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## dm1333 (Jun 27, 2010)

skyliner1004 stated that;



> anything thats powered on electricity, or have any type of bulshit electric assist is no longer a bicycle. It is now a motored bicycle and must follow MOTORCYCLE laws. Which means stay off bike lanes, stay off trails that dont allow MOTORCYCLES


.

That actually isn't true all the time. Here is what the California vehicle code says about e-assist bikes.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl655/dl665mcycle.pdf



> There are two definitions of motor-ized bicycle (moped). A motorized bicycle is:• A two- or three-wheeled device, capable of no more than 30 mph on level ground, and equipped with:- fully operative pedals for hu-man propulsion.- a motor producing less than two gross brake horsepower and an automatic transmission.- *an electric motor, with or without pedals for human pro-pulsion. (CVC §406[a])• A vehicle with pedals and an elec-tric motor (not more than 1,000 watts) which cannot be driven at speeds of more than 20 mph on level ground even if assisted by human power.* (CVC §406*)If you operate a motorized bicycle which meets the definition of CVC §406(b), you:• Must be 16 years of age or older.• Must wear a properly fitted and fastened bicycle helmet.• Are exempt from the motor vehicle financial responsibility, driver license, and moped plate requirements. (CVC §12804.9)You may ride a moped in a bicycle lane at a reasonable speed. Be careful of bicyclists using the lane.*


*

If you follow the state code for electric or motorized bicycles they are still in fact bicycles and can be legally ridden where ever a bicycle can on the road. Of course on private property the owner can choose whether or not to allow them. Here is a good website that summarizes what you can do with e-bikes.

http://www.hybridep.com/laws-by-state.html*


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## tduro (Jan 2, 2007)

verve825 said:


> Or, rather, why bother?
> 
> After thinking about this for several days, I feel compelled to speak my piece on the issue of so-called "electric-assist" bikes. While these "bikes" may have their place for commuters, in the city, etc., it seems to me- and many, many other avid mountain bikers with whom I've discussed this topic in the past week- that the very notion of an "electric-assist" mountain bike runs completely counter to the very substance and soul of the sport itself. (In fact, not one rider out of the dozen or so I've discussed this with, felt that "electric-assist" bikes are valid. Small sample size, perhaps, but still- not one.)
> 
> ...


You thought about this for several days, and then posted that crap? Do you drive a car? Do you have a microwave, refrigerator, light bulbs, flush toilets? If not, I applaud you, and I take back my comments below. If you have any of these, then you're a hypocritical asswipe.

You should know I don't ride an electric assist bike, nor do I think they should be allowed on our local trails. And by the way I brew my own coffee, bake (some of) my own baked goods, and grow (some of) my own vegetables. But I don't expect everyone else to. That would be extremetly arrogant.

What would you prefer?
Electric assist bike vs. gasoline car.
Electric assist bike vs. hybrid car.
Electric assist bike vs. electric car.
Electric assist bike vs. motor-cycle.

Your comments seem very narrow-minded, particularly since it took you several days of thought to formulate them.


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## SmilMick (Apr 9, 2006)

Let me start off by introducing myself:

I am a 23 year old 6 foot tall 135lb mountain biker who is faster than you. Obviously, Im not a fat ass. I cant afford a motorcycle because I already have a Datsun 280z that I am puting a SBC into. I also have my regular 2002 Mazda Protege5 wagon that has been an awesome car. I drive it everywhere!


I also happen to work at a Bicycle Shop as a mechanic and salesman.

Ever since the Trek FX pedal assist bike rolled through the shop, I was totally interested. In fact, I will be purchasing a kit within a week or so. I get a decent discount on everything because I work at a bike shop, so a decent conversion kit with a really nice Lithium battery will cost me about $800 when its all said and done. 

I will use it to commute to the bike shop. I am not a morning person, and a really dont enjoy road cycling much at all. Pedaling 15 miles to work in the Texas heat isnt fun. Not in my book. And I sure a HELL dont need the exercise.

Seriously, what makes this a stupid idea for me? What do you guys suggest I do instead of getting an electric bike? What brilliant idea do you have for me? I dont want to pay insurance, I dont want to get a motorcycle license, and I dont care if I look like a nerd! I can kick ass on the trail at the end of the day, so trying to protect my ego by hating on e-bikes doesnt concern me.

I really look forward to cruising to work at an easy pace in the warm mornings of Texas with the ability to SAFELY cruise on sidewalks and shoulders.

WHy all the hate on electric bikes? Are some of you guys SO insecure that you feel the need to put down the hobbies and activities of other people?

What the hell is the problem here?

Get over yourselves. I'll have sooooo much fun cruisin around on my e-bike!


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## my51isfast (Sep 16, 2008)

I tend to agree with SmilMick. I know there are a lot of naysayers about these e-bikes, but have any of you even thrown a leg over one? I will concede they are not for everyone...and I'm included in that...these aren't for me. I can see using one for commuting to work especially when it's hot out. I did test ride one recently and I hate to say it but it was kind of fun!


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## finger51 (Jul 21, 2006)

SmilMick said:


> Let me start off by introducing myself:
> I am a 23 year old 6 foot tall 135lb mountain biker who is faster than you. Obviously, Im not a fat ass. I cant afford a motorcycle because I already have a Datsun 280z that I am puting a SBC into. I also have my regular 2002 Mazda Protege5 wagon that has been an awesome car. I drive it everywhere!
> I also happen to work at a Bicycle Shop as a mechanic and salesman.
> Ever since the Trek FX pedal assist bike rolled through the shop, I was totally interested. In fact, I will be purchasing a kit within a week or so. I get a decent discount on everything because I work at a bike shop, so a decent conversion kit with a really nice Lithium battery will cost me about $800 when its all said and done.
> ...


Since it is clear you don't need to ride to stay in shape, why not just drive one of your cars that 15 miles?

It'd be faster- you would certainly get more sleep.

Your posting was pretty funny- thanks for the LOL!


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## grizzlyplumber (May 15, 2008)

Ok, against my better judgement I am going to weigh in here with my 2 bits. I am an avid mt biker, started riding about 15 years ago, took a lull for about the first 10 years of my marriage then decided to lose the gut and start riding again. I am down about 40 lb from when I started now, but in the last year my health deteriorated, due to unfortunate and unrelated circumstances, to the point where I can ride only about 3-5 miles twice a week. My riding buddies wait for me when I go and never complain but I always feel bad that I hold them up. On the days I dont go they do their normal 10+ milers that I used to be able to do and wish I could still do. I am very interested in getting some kind of electric assist not a motorcycle. It would help me to get more miles into my exercise and not be the anchor that weighs my friends down. Maybe I am the exception here, but I just feel the need to speak in support of these bikes.


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## skyliner1004 (Jan 7, 2010)

grizzlyplumber said:


> Ok, against my better judgement I am going to weigh in here with my 2 bits. I am an avid mt biker, started riding about 15 years ago, took a lull for about the first 10 years of my marriage then decided to lose the gut and start riding again. I am down about 40 lb from when I started now, but in the last year my health deteriorated, due to unfortunate and unrelated circumstances, to the point where I can ride only about 3-5 miles twice a week. My riding buddies wait for me when I go and never complain but I always feel bad that I hold them up. On the days I dont go they do their normal 10+ milers that I used to be able to do and wish I could still do. I am very interested in getting some kind of electric assist not a motorcycle. It would help me to get more miles into my exercise and not be the anchor that weighs my friends down. Maybe I am the exception here, but I just feel the need to speak in support of these bikes.


Why don't you just HTFU and ride a bike with your legs?


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

Why? Because they are fun? Remember fun? Kids ride bikes for fun. Then we grow up and suck all the joy out of life.

It's just darn fun to have your pedaling force amplified. You feel like superman.

I don't have an electric bike, but I've test ridden a couple at bike shops, and they sure did bring a smile to my face.


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## grizzlyplumber (May 15, 2008)

skyliner1004 said:


> Why don't you just HTFU and ride a bike with your legs?


LOL! Now I get it, you made me laugh. I had to go back and read all of your previous posts in this thread and I can see that you lacked attention from your parents as a child. Thats a good one. Welcome to the rest of the world who doesnt give a flying rip about you either. :thumbsup:


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## alanm (Sep 2, 2009)

*At nearly 50.....*

Hi Guys,

Well this has generated a fair bit of debate and also some mud slinging........ 

I'm going to add my little bit because I've been thinking, over the last 6 months or so, whether an Electric Assist, in particular, the Stoke Monkey, would be of use to me.

I've been riding in one form or another since I was 2 years old, started on a tricycle.

I raced at state leve for many years.

I've toured extensively, ridden around Australia, ridden from the Himalaya in North West India down the midlands and interior to New Delhi, ridden around the North Island of New Zealand, ridden around Tasmania, ridden through England and have done some very challenging rides through some of the very remote desert areas of Australia hauling loads of up to 110 Lbs on a modified BOB.

To date I've covered a total of 65'000 Km on just the tours alone. My commute rides and general MTB hack rides on weekends would, over the years, easily total another 20'000 Km's.

In the last few years I've moved into making movies and because I'm lucky and am able to afford it I have a couple of nice Canon XL2's and assoiated gear. This gear often finds it's way onto my bike when I tour and because I'm a bit of a loner I have to carry the lot and it weighs...big time....more than most of your bikes weigh....

Now, at 49, my knees, particularly my left one, is starting to give me a bit of trouble. Having been quite fit all my life and not really used to physical limitations I struggle at times with the knee 'problem' I've come to the realisation that if I don't slow down / do something, I'm not going to be able to do 'anything' with bikes.

Some may say I've had a good run and I wouldn't disagree BUT I want to keep going..... I still have things to do......

Sooo I've been thinking 'Stoke Monkey', coupled with Surly Endo's on a Hauler style frame.... justification....I can keep riding and not wreck my knee.

Wadcha recon, surely Electric Assist can't be a bad thing?????? if used for the 'right' reasons. I'm still going to have to pedal but it'll mean that maybe I can ride up some of the hills instead of pushing (like in the pics) or even get a bit of 'assist' when I'm pushing and wont be killing my knee.

Just my 2c worth.

Al


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## skyliner1004 (Jan 7, 2010)

grizzlyplumber said:


> LOL! Now I get it, you made me laugh. I had to go back and read all of your previous posts in this thread and I can see that you lacked attention from your parents as a child. Thats a good one. Welcome to the rest of the world who doesnt give a flying rip about you either. :thumbsup:


is this your attempt at an insult? You actually went back and read my posts? you loser. I didn't have to go back and read anything from you and know that you got it from your mother's smaller left breast while she was feeding you yesterday. How? Because i was right there next to you on her larger right one. ask me how i know the right one's larger.

you started it dikface


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## grizzlyplumber (May 15, 2008)

skyliner1004 said:


> is this your attempt at an insult? You actually went back and read my posts? you loser. I didn't have to go back and read anything from you and know that you got it from your mother's smaller left breast while she was feeding you yesterday. How? Because i was right there next to you on her larger right one. ask me how i know the right one's larger.
> 
> you started it dikface


Ouch, looks like I touched a nerve here. Sorry, what I meant to say was, You are a good guy, we all like you, thanks for letting us know that you look down on e-bikes. And it is obvious you arent wasting your time, its not like you are trolling around message boards offering contrary opinions to something you havent ever tried while trying to demean those who have tried them or want to . Please accept my apologies and have a great day.


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## skyliner1004 (Jan 7, 2010)

grizzlyplumber said:


> Ouch, looks like I touched a nerve here. Sorry, what I meant to say was, You are a good guy, we all like you, thanks for letting us know that you look down on e-bikes. And it is obvious you arent wasting your time, its not like you are trolling around message boards offering contrary opinions to something you havent ever tried while trying to demean those who have tried them or want to . Please accept my apologies and have a great day.


no i will not accept your apologies you weak ******. go ride your piece of ****. touch a nerve? thats an original line on the internet. how about you touch my dick? yea i do look down on ebike riders. they can't pedal real bikes and can't afford motorcycles, hence, weaker.


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

I also laugh at all those people who need mechanical assistance to ride a bike. I mean seriously....gears? Why the hell do people need gears to assist their riding. Gears are just as laughable as other forms of mechanical or electrical assistance.

And then there's the people who need suspension to improve their confidense to go off a 2-foot jump. Weak! Develop some skills and grow a pair! 

Some newbs just don't get it. :nono:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=632450



skyliner1004 said:


> Currently have a HT and find that i'm thrown aroud too much on it and it doesn't give me the confidence i want to do that jump, or clear that log going uphill. Maybe its because i dont want my tail to lose traction?
> 
> Current bike: Spec Rockhopper SL Pro
> Want: Trek EX Fuel 7 or Spec SJ FSR Comp $2k
> ...


However, I won't laugh my ass off at those who are sympathetic of others.


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## mojo28246 (Aug 8, 2007)

Blaster1200 said:


> I also laugh at all those people who need mechanical assistance to ride a bike. I mean seriously....gears? Why the hell do people need gears to assist their riding. Gears are just as laughable as other forms of mechanical or electrical assistance.
> 
> And then there's the people who need suspension to improve their confidense to go off a 2-foot jump. Weak! Develop some skills and grow a pair!
> 
> ...


LMAO, I agree grow a pair ride rigid with coaster brake then come back and tell us noobs. It's not the size actually, it's the skillz, I had a few ride with this guy who's 300#+ and can run circle with you up or down the trail.

For someone who doesn't know $hit Skyliner1004, you sure talk like one. Mtb evolved from the use of technology since the days of Klunkers. Wanna talk $hit like a purist, get yourself one then we'll talk.:nono:


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## damon09 (Nov 5, 2009)

I have seen DeMarcus Ware out riding on his custom made Opti-Bike & can promise that there are very few here that would like to laugh in his face. You, BTW would likely only come up to mid-chest.

That guy is a specimen in terms of condition & whatever works for him to keep him in that shape I would be very slow to ridicule.


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## BlueMountain (Nov 8, 2006)

Just stay of the singletrack. It is almost all designated to be non-motorized or non motor-assist. Where motos and motor-assisted bikes are allowed, feel free to indulge.


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## cifex (Sep 11, 2009)

Ricisan said:


> Are those that climb Everest w/guide ropes lesser in their accomplishment than those that don't, what about using O2?


 YES! :madman:



Ricisan said:


> How about suspension, is that for sissies? Perhaps we should all go back to ridgid SS?


 YES!


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## rdhfreethought (Aug 12, 2006)

I guess I agree with Cifex on this one.

The main issue is that motorized transport (electric or gas, or fuel cell, or horsedrawn) should be limited to roads. They can be jeep double track roads, but those types of locomotion should be roads or private property, or specialty areas (in the case of horses), etc.

Non-motorized transport, which includes: hiking, biking, skiing, swimming, crawling and rolling...should all be allowed the same access to the same areas. Not allowing a hiker to bring a bike to the wilderness, because it disrupts the natural surroundings, is the same a not allowing a hiker to bring a backpack, flashlight or a bear bell. Notice I said 'hiker' bringing a bike, not 'biker'. We are all hikers first, and *that* is what defines us, not the equipment we bring (cameras, bikes, backpacks, snowboards, tents, paragliders etc)


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

BlueMountain said:


> Just stay of the singletrack. It is almost all designated to be non-motorized or non motor-assist. Where motos and motor-assisted bikes are allowed, feel free to indulge.


Yep, that's my sentiment in a nutshell as well.



rdhfreethought said:


> Non-motorized transport, which includes: hiking, biking, skiing, swimming, crawling and rolling...should all be allowed the same access to the same areas. Not allowing a hiker to bring a bike to the wilderness, because it disrupts the natural surroundings, is the same a not allowing a hiker to bring a backpack, flashlight or a bear bell. Notice I said 'hiker' bringing a bike, not 'biker'. We are all hikers first, and that is what defines us, not the equipment we bring (cameras, bikes, backpacks, snowboards, tents, paragliders etc)


Bikes are a used for hiking? Not buying that one, sorry. Unless your climbing skills reaaalllly suck.


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

BlueMountain said:


> Just stay of the singletrack.


how ya gonna know??
x-ray my ebike & everyone else's?
if the TDF can't tell, what chance have u got.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

gSPIN said:


> how ya gonna know??
> x-ray my ebike & everyone else's?
> if the TDF can't tell, what chance have u got.


Easy, if you are going up hill faster than me then you must be either doping or on an assisted bike , I would not allow that, no way:nono: I have to stop that. Unless you are pros of course. They don't dope or using any kind of power assist in anyway.

You brought up a really good point who's to know if the system is concealed inside the tube. No one can get close to you on the climb anyways to hear the humming motor. They'll be looking for a different kind of e-bike and missed it altogether.


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

mimi1885 said:


> Easy, if you are going up hill faster than me then you must be either doping or on an assisted bike , I would not allow that, no way:nono: I have to stop that.


yeah, it's not like it would occur to me to ease up on the throttle if anyone else was around.

i think that's why it's obvious those who argue so feverishly against e-assist have never tried one on for size & don't know what their talking about.
a (good) ebike is a hybrid, a synthesis of muscle & motor (hence the variant bionX).
u can pedal as much or as little as u want or turn the motor off completely.
which usually happens involuntarily when the battery runs dry & can still pedal on, albeit slowly.

as for noise, a direct drive hub motor is totally silent if set up correctly.
is that a nuVinci or a hub motor in the back wheel?
that is if u can even see it hidden behind the disk rotor.


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## BlueMountain (Nov 8, 2006)

Let us know when you can afford an ebike that can house a tiny motor in the frame just for the purpose of hiding it. For mere mortal, ebikes have batteries and cords.



gSPIN said:


> how ya gonna know??
> x-ray my ebike & everyone else's?
> if the TDF can't tell, what chance have u got.


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

BlueMountain said:


> Let us know when you can afford an ebike that can house a tiny motor in the frame just for the purpose of hiding it. For mere mortal, ebikes have batteries and cords.


sure thing, i could afford it yesterday.
the Schwinn Tailwind has the wiring totally concealed within the frame so that's no biggie
perhaps u haven't noticed, but there's lotsa MTB's out there made outta these reely phatt tubes.
now compare the diameter of some R/C motors that would slot in nicely, altho those would be very noisy.

i'm guessing re: high price ur referring to optibike, but there's nothing there can't be made for well under half of what it costs.
for u mere mortals there's this not-quite-as-compact chinese version.









check out this collection of stealth ebikes that can easily be put together by just about anyone to see what i'm on about.

https://www.nalizadeh.com/ebike/pics/bikes.html.

even as they are, you would have to be fairly close to spot the motor.
throw on some strategically placed front and/or rear panniers, foe-gettaboutit.
sur they have small 240Wh batteries, but battery technology is only gonna improve on that.
for the same volume & slightly less weight, that battery capacity/range can be doubled right now (as in today) by going LiPo, no breakthru battery tech required.
even without that, if needed a backpack stuft with batteries does the job nicely.

so to all yooz guyz suffering with park ranger syndrome that thinx yooz ownz the trailz, ur deluding urself if u believe u can shut out us ebikes.
we're already here.
we have been for quite some time.
u just don't have a clue.

the only surefire way to spot if a bike is powered?
that's if u don a pair of specially formulated sunglasses/x-ray specs to reveal their inner workings.
just ask ruddy Roddy Piper to source u some.

we live.
and we ride among u.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Hilarious stuff! Thanks for the tips though.


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## Roasted (Feb 8, 2009)

I always thought highly of this forum and its members until I stumbled across this thread. Some users here make very valid points, while a LOT of you are quite simply, an ass hole.

Let's keep it real, guys. Come on... I'm happy as long as I have two wheels on the ground and I'm doing my thing. So what if somebody wants to have an electric assist bike. What does it effect YOU? I can understand if we're talking Tour de France and Lance Armstrong is your main competitor and he's zipping around on an electric assist bike and winning while you're doing it by old fashioned pedaling. But really, when it comes to recreation, who cares? What does it effect you? 

There are some people with physical limitations and health issues that does not allow them to push their bodies in the same manner a lot of us mountain bikers do. If they're passionate enough about this sport to get an electric assist bike in order to still be able to bike, my hat goes off to them and I have a ton of respect for those individuals. How dare ANY of you talk negatively in any way shape or form about this subject. I'm downright disgusted with some of the responses I've seen here.


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

My 6 cents (because my exalted opinion is worth 3x the average person's) 

Back to reality.

All the assisted bikes I've seen have been strictly aimed at commuters. There may be assisted MTBs, but they are merely a product of the "What if?..." element of MTB. Like _what if _we ride klunkerz down the mountain. What if we put add a telescoping fork. So far it's been about commuting.

Anyone that's been riding for around 20 years will remember the crazy MTB designs of the 90's. A time when the attitude was "try everything, see what works". Biopace, Synergy wheels, Whyte bikes, Amp, Proflex Somebody has to put a motor on an MTB because crazy and stupid is another way of making discoveries.

http://mombat.org/Museum_Manufacturer.htm <----great history site

So somebody it going to put a motor on an MTB, and that somebody has probably been trying since before suspension. Chances are that such a motor is just going to end up in the annals of history like the AMP bike or Slingshot.

But the main thrust is for commuting, So why, are MTBer's getting angry? Sure some idiot is going to try going offroad with a Costco electric bike. Let him and enjoy the laughs.

I used to have a commute uphill for 1 hr. In August at 2pm with my head ready to explode, blinded with sweat, and ready to puke from exhaustion, it would have been nice to cheat once in a while (my basal BPM was 48). Though, the return at midnight downhill was worth it.

Do they belong on trails? No. Are you gonna see many on trails? probably not. So why get your knickers in a knot.

Hell this is the COMMUTING thread!


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

gSPIN said:


> the only surefire way to spot if a bike is powered?
> that's if u don a pair of specially formulated sunglasses/x-ray specs to reveal their inner workings.


Or look for the fat kid passing everyone uphill.


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

BumpityBump said:


> Or look for the fat kid passing everyone uphill.


thought i addressed that.

btw, i'm 140 lbs. if that matters.
watcha gonna do then??


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

I'd might try that Bob trailer with hub motor...but not for off road. Would be nice to bring a tent and whatever to do a several day trip. Maybe a long cord to sneak power from the outside outlets at convenient stores and wherever else. Electric to help move all the wifes luggage in the trailer. Spoken like a true NewYorker...


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

1niceride said:


> Maybe a long cord to sneak power from the outside outlets at convenient stores and wherever else.


the karma source is gas stations.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

froggy97Do they belong on trails? No. Are you gonna see many on trails? probably not. So why get your knickers in a knot.
Hell this is the COMMUTING thread![/QUOTE said:


> The title of this thread is "Why ?" , not Commuting . You are in the Electric Assist Bicycles forum :
> http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=167
> 
> This is the Commuting Forum :
> http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=148


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

gSPIN said:


> thought i addressed that.
> 
> btw, i'm 140 lbs. if that matters.
> watcha gonna do then??


Why whip out my x-ray specs of course.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0034Q5Z7K/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=1036592&s=apparel

Checkmate. Bwaaahaaaahaaa..........


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

BumpityBump said:


> Why whip out my x-ray specs of course.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0034Q5Z7K/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=1036592&s=apparel
> 
> Checkmate. Bwaaahaaaahaaa..........


Checkmate huh?
too bad ur playin checkers.

like i sed, got that covered alreddy.
i'm guessing english isn't ur native language.



gSpin said:


> the only surefire way to spot if a bike is powered?
> that's if u don a pair of specially formulated sunglasses/x-ray specs to reveal their inner workings.
> just ask ruddy Roddy Piper to source u some.


the Piper shades not only look better but work better too.
that's the only way to pierce the holographic cloaking that masks us ebikers tru alien form.
only then can u c by the dawn's early lite, it's due to our highly evolved enormous brain but week flimsy limbs why we are gradually infiltrating this advanced form of propulsion & how widespread we've alreddy integrated into society.

YAHTZEE!!!

(which is alien for 'resistance is futile')


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

gSPIN said:


> Checkmate huh?
> too bad ur playin checkers.
> 
> like i sed, got that covered alreddy.
> i'm guessing english isn't ur native language.


Ur isn't a word in the context you used it, and you misspelled already. I got your english language right here.


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

BumpityBump said:


> Ur isn't a word in the context you used it, and you misspelled already. I got your english language right here.


ur also a noob to the interwebz i c.

btw, it's i have your english language right here.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

gSPIN said:


> ur also a noob to the interwebz i c.
> 
> btw, it's i have your english language right here.


Ha, got me.


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## DanMach86 (Aug 30, 2008)

Why come onto an internet forum and troll?


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

gSPIN said:


> Checkmate huh?
> too bad *ur* playin checkers.
> 
> like *i sed, got* that covered alreddy. I should be capitalized, SAID, and even you used GOT
> ...


WOW, a little, illiterate, ******* criticizing someone's English skills! That's audacious 2 da xtreem!!!.

You're white. You're not Wu Tang Clan!!! You're not even a Tribe Called Quest. Now pull up your pants and STFU!


Have a nice day. And spread the love.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*You can't make this stuff up*



gSPIN said:


> like i sed, got that covered alreddy.
> i'm guessing english isn't ur native language.


Classic!!:lol:

When you have proper keyboards and large enough text fields at your disposal, there is no excuse for text message speak. It's just uber focking annoying. It's not internet speak. It's just 'tarded and pure laziness. The point of leaving out letters and punctuation was to make messages fit in the 160 character limit of text messages on cell phones.

Back on topic... I'm starting to eye those motor hubs on fleabay. I have a good supply of SLA batteries for cheap at my disposal. I'm thinking city bike needs a boost up those hills when hauling 20-30 pounds of groceries.


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

pimpbot said:


> The point of leaving out letters and punctuation was to make messages fit in the 160 character limit of text messages on cell phones.


or if ur busy & don't have a lot of time to waste pokin superfluous keyes. (spelt this way 4 the red letter guy).
the fact that it's annoying is a bonus.



pimpbot said:


> Back on topic... I'm starting to eye those motor hubs on fleabay. I have a good supply of SLA batteries for cheap at my disposal. I'm thinking city bike needs a boost up those hills when hauling 20-30 pounds of groceries.


pls, pls, pls don't go SLA, ur settin urself up 4 disappointment.
i guess if u gottem may as well usem, but just don't give up on leckys right away if it don't work out.
NiMH is the new SLA & i would suggest using cells from a salvaged prius pack off ebay.
at least chek out the prices, typically between $10-$15 a module which is 6 cells & is cheaper than i can buy SLA.


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

froggy97 said:


> That's audacious 2 da xtreem!!!.


thank u. 

and thank *yooo* 4 swallowing the bait COMMA ya big mouth grouper. :thumbsup: 
got u 2 waste ur time combing thru my post.  
i pwn ur spell checking a55!


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## 1niceride (Jan 30, 2004)

AZ.MTNS said:


> The title of this thread is "Why ?" , not Commuting . You are in the Electric Assist Bicycles forum :
> http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=167
> 
> This is the Commuting Forum :
> http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=148


Opps, sorry AZ.mtns, cant read...


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

gSPIN said:


> thank u.


Gspin.

Did you take a short bus to school?
Do you wear a helmet even off the bike?
Is your mother also your aunt?
How can you be that stupid and not forget to breathe?
If you were dumber, you'd be watered twice a week.
Word to yo momma......birth control.
One day you'll be an award winner.....Darwin award.

Can we return to the OT?


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

froggy97 said:


> Can we return to the OT?


entirely in ur handz red-letter-man.
as ur the one doing all the derailleuring with pretty colorz & nonsensical listz.
but u seem to prefer *OFF TOPIC*


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm SOOOOO SORRY!!!! AZ. PLEASE FORGIVE ME!!!!!

I assumed that I was in a commuting thread because the idea of ebikes on ST was too absurd!!! PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR MY GRIEVOUS ERROR!!!!

Why? I haven't tried one but I can see (why). If you read the post 
SOMEBODY HAS TO TRY ENGINEERING ONE....Mount Everest syndrome (or whatever you call...."because it wasn't there")
Once in a while it's a nice thing to have. If you have a job that is physically exhausting it's nice to have some slack on the ride home. I cruise at 30+ kph. At that point an ebike is pointless. But after a hard day it's nice to have a cruise home. And it's still better than driving a car.

What's your point, AZ? I mistook this thread for one in commuting? That Ebikes don't belong on trails? I agree. 

But most ebikes only put out .25 hp. A healthy rider can maintain .25 hp for hours and peak at 1 hp. Sadly the reasoning against ebikes has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TECHNOLOGY.

The reason to hate ebikes is that they are going to feed into the lardass,high-fructose corn syrup, crap eating masses!!!! That's the rub!!! It's not assisted that's the problem!!! It's the sack of protoplasm that's too lazy to pedal!!!


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

froggy97 said:


> The reason to hate ebikes is that they are going to feed into the lardass,high-fructose corn syrup, crap eating masses!!!! That's the rub!!! It's not assisted that's the problem!!! It's the sack of protoplasm that's too lazy to pedal!!!


masses whose taxes fund those trails & will now be able to get some return on their monies.

i think the fact that you (the collective self-admitted haters 'you') don't like it is just the incentive needed to get ebikers out on the trails so they can enjoy their tax dollars at work.
then they'll discover for themselves why thou doth protest so much trying so hard to keep a good thing for urself.

fer sur i will, i mean moreso than i have been alreddy, which has only been a couple of times every summer to this point.
once i take delivery of my 14kW R/C motor the size of a coffee mug & mate it to my DH rig,
it will be soo much more enjoyable than my current heavy hubmotor mounted in back of a hardtail.
i gonna b rippin inta demz trailz every day!
thanx 4 spurring me on. :thumbsup:

here i am in my lardass body-armour.








_aaah, there's the rub_


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

First off Gspin. I have to give you credit for being brighter than the average 11 year old. 11 and you're smarter than engineers that compare power output to battery draw?!!!!NO/ Hell, most bikes are aiming for .25 hp (human output off peak). But your thinking is throwing it against the wall and seeing what sticks

14 kW? That's 18 HP!!!! A stupidly large motor for a bike, that will drain juice at an even stupidly larger rate. You recommend NiMH? There is a reason NiMH are so cheap. They have lousy weight to capacity ratio and the charge/discharge cycles SUCK!!!!

LiPo are commercially available and store WAY more energy. 4 times as much in terms of wattage per pound as NiMH

And then you want to waste that effort on a DH rig?!!!! Putting a motor on a DH rig is just stupid!!! DH is all about potential energy being converted into kinetic energy. Of all the applications for for electric assist you have picked the stupidest one. DH?!!! Dude!!!! Acceleration is not an issue with DH!!

Recumbent, if you pull it off is a seller. Recumbents suck going up hill.

Then again, we've all been 11 years old with pipe dreams. At 11 you're on the wrong pipe!!

*Though, if you do attach a motor to a DH rig (friction drive is cheating!!!) I'd love to see it.*


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

froggy97 said:


> 14 kW? That's 18 HP!!!! A stupidly large motor for a bike, that will drain juice at an even stupidly larger rate. You recommend NiMH? There is a reason NiMH are so cheap. They have lousy weight to capacity ratio and the charge/discharge cycles SUCK!!!!


first off 97froggy understand that in no way am i questioning if english is ur native tongue.
that would only give u ammunition to fire back my way.
rather it's ur comprehension that's clearly lacking.
not to worry, with practice you'll be reading at an 11 y.o. level in no time.
first u have trouble with understanding AZ.MTN, now with my posts.

just W(here)TF in my previous post (ya know, the one about the DH rig?) do i ever give *any* indication i plan on using NiMH?
the only comment i ever made regarding NiMH (in response to a different post & his particular set of requirements) is that it's displaced lead-acid at the bottom of the barrel.
how can anyone argue with that?
do u understand the meaning of 'context'?

second off 97froggy, simply because there's more power on tap don't mean it's either all or nothing.
there is a throttle ya know.
ur comment actually reveals more about ur lead-foot approach to driving.
battery won't drain a whole lot faster unless u want it to.



froggy97 said:


> LiPo are commercially available and store WAY more energy. 4 times as much in terms of wattage per pound as NiMH


third off 97froggy, wattage is a measure of power not energy.
energy density relates to how far (or how long amount of time) u can go for a given size pack.
power density is a measure of how quickly the energy can be extracted in a very short amount of time.

if ur comparing specific-power then LiPO has way more than just 4 times the advantage.
it's more like 10 or 20 times, or better, they're always coming out with higher C-rates.
OTOH if ur talking gravimetric energy density, that hasn't improved much with even the latest LiPO offerings.
It's a very consistent 2X when compared with the best NiMH available.
since ur all over the map on this one i can't answer u more specifically, but in either case ur way off.

LiPO is the prime choice if not the only choice for an eMTB, never said otherwise.
a LiFe battery might only be marginally heavier, but the big downside is they're so much bulkier.
they eat up more way more space than even NiMH for the same capacity.



froggy97 said:


> And then you want to waste that effort on a DH rig?!!!! Putting a motor on a DH rig is just stupid!!! DH is all about potential energy being converted into kinetic energy. Of all the applications for for electric assist you have picked the stupidest one. DH?!!! Dude!!!! Acceleration is not an issue with DH!!
> 
> *Though, if you do attach a motor to a DH rig (friction drive is cheating!!!) I'd love to see it.*


sur thang.
(doncha just luvzit when the groupers aren't just biting but jumpz rite into the boat with both finz & gut themself while they're at it. )
it's not a pipe dream when u can actually ride one.
here's not just one but a pair of DH-based trail assault weapons u can buyz *rite now!!!*.

http://www.stealthelectricbikes.com/electric-bike.html

i gonna b following in their, um, trail, improving slightly on what they've already accomplished.
instead of the heavy rear hub motor & bulky ferrophosphate battery i'll be going with light weight RC motors & all LiPO.
not only will it be less weight but most significantly less unsprung weight (that rear wheel alone weighs in at close to 25 lbs).
that's in addition to mine costing about half as much to build with more power & range on board.
and no it won't be friction drive, worst case maybe belt-drive but i'll have to try it first & see.
friction drive isn't cheating, it's just lame for anything but a fair-weather bike.

so fourth off jack-off 97froggy, hate to burst ur distorted widdle bubble but it's tru.
DH & AM type bikes are in fact the vehicle of choice that can take the punishment when it comes to ebike bleeding edge .
ur just a decade behind the times in ur thinkerin, the dark time when .25 hp was the norm.
200W ebikes suk ballz, ask anyone.

i can c why the ebike haters wish they would always remain at that castrated power level.
the reason they hate ebikes is cuz they know deep in their heart the secret, awful truth.
they feel threatened and they're afraid.
they WANT ebikes to suk.
so they can continue to point & laff at just how *badly* they suk.

well the game has 4ever changed.
on the road or on the trailz.
lektrix pwn the high ground.


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

gSPIN, you make some really valid points (LiPo versus LiFePO4 for instance), but your internet typing is really annoying to read.

After getting used to my street e-bike (less than 500W), and actually doing some serious mountain biking this year for the first time in a while, I'm going to change my opinion a bit from what I wrote in another e-bike thread. I'm basically agreeing with you:

I don't think e-bikes have much of a place on singletrack. The desire to flick one's bike around is a questionable thing to satisfy with a motor and battery -- even with 25%-lighter-than-LiFePO4 lithium polymer battery packs.

I could totally see a high powered e-bike like the Stealth catching on for DH purposes. Not necessarily for going down, but it would completely circumvent the need for chairlifts! You could just bomb up a separate "shuttle" trail or something. That would be pretty awesome.

I just wish RC motors were more quiet. If I had lots of smarts and tools, I'd try to build a custom axial flux motor wheel - quiet AND powerful!


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## damon09 (Nov 5, 2009)

Just got back from a California trip where I spent most of my time in Manhattan Beach.
I must say that I would use the hell out of an Optibike if I lived there & apologize to no one about
it. You go sit your ass in all that traffic.

Lots of parts that would be familiar to regulars here: Cane Creek headset, Fox forks & rear suspension shock , rohloff hub, sram drivetrain, avid brakes, mavic wheels.

I could gives a rats ass if I'm driving in a Ferrari & somebody passes me in a Honda or vice versa. What kind of tool judges life on such terms?


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## donsvideo (Aug 5, 2007)

*Bionx*

Electric Bikes Are Great Transportation


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## metalized33 (Aug 21, 2010)

I would be so embarrassed to use a motorized bike unless I was somehow disabled and could no longer get around on my own power. Why spend so much money on a motorized setup only to get less exercise and extra hassle/maintenance ?


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## donsvideo (Aug 5, 2007)

As Long as people go out and enjoy Bicycling who cars how they do it! People who are judging people who ride E-Bikes should get a life and stop worrying about how people go out and enjoy bicycling.


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

I agree with you to a point. Eventually the batteries will die and they'll have to pedal, and get some exercise.

I have ZERO, nada, nil problem with e-bikes as transportation (i.e. commuting). They make an ideal solution for the majority of commuters, (even with electricity from coal plants they are still greener than gas scooters)

The issue is (this is a mountain biking site) how they will be used on trails. If they are used as a loophole to effectively put a motocross bike on the trails then we should stop it.

Many of the members of MTBR may look at e-bikes as an emergent technology, and be excited about them. It's a cool idea, afterall. But those of us that fought the groups like the Sierra Club (socialist left-wing) and Equestrians (rich right-wing) remember that this is also political. 

If e-bikes are used without discretion, special interest groups like the above mentioned will lobby against them. You may think that some of the MTBR members don't like e-bikes, wait 'til you meet the REAL enemies. 

We're on the same team as cyclists. But proponents of ebikes need to look at the past and plan for the future. When you look at the situation and see that you have enemies on both sides of the house you need to plan more than ever.


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## donsvideo (Aug 5, 2007)

There should not be a problem here with electric bikes, people who put them down are not being supportive to all bicyclists. If they have nothing good to say move on and grow up!


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

The bicycle is a curious vehicle. Its passenger is its engine-John Howard


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## damon09 (Nov 5, 2009)

Nice post Froggy! Clearly lots to consider on several points.


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## tshulthise (Apr 23, 2010)

The market ... price, supply, and venue availability decides what's valid and what isn't. That is all.

As far as using them on mtb trails... that's probably not going to happen but I can see if they get the battery and motor technology far enough this could be a sect that becomes very very popular and may even have its own venues like ATV's and dirt bikes. Face it, 90% of the population hates to exert themselves. That means the market for a thrilling ride that doesn't require much effort and has a low enough cost is probably much larger than a pedal bike. Not to mention if it can also serve as a commuter.

The market... That's what determines what "matters", including this website and forum.


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

tshulthise said:


> The market ... price, supply, and venue availability decides what's valid and what isn't. That is all.
> 
> As far as using them on mtb trails... that's probably not going to happen but I can see if they get the battery and motor technology far enough this could be a sect that becomes very very popular and may even have its own venues like ATV's and dirt bikes. Face it, 90% of the population hates to exert themselves. That means the market for a thrilling ride that doesn't require much effort and has a low enough cost is probably much larger than a pedal bike. Not to mention if it can also serve as a commuter.
> 
> The market... That's what determines what "matters", including this website and forum.


We used to have a similar attitude to mountain bikes. Who could object? Well, we were wrong.

Maybe you didn't read my post. But supply and demand aren't the whole picture. There are special interest groups that will vilify bikes like they were an ak47.

That venue that you mention is what's at risk! One of the arguments that mtbers had was that we had limited horsepower. Reletive to the motorbikes they tried to lump us in with

Venue. That's where the sticky point is. I don't have a problem with ebikes, even on trails. But this is just a new battle in an on-going war. All I'm asking is to move cautiously.

Our shared enemies can become rabid and politicaly volatile. The squeaky wheel gets heard and bills passed.

Look back at the history of fighting for trail usage 
before you act.


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## tshulthise (Apr 23, 2010)

I agree it could certainly jeopardize trails. Never disagreed with that. 

I'm just saying the market determines what sells and what grows and what dies. What you or I think is good or bad is not much of a factor.


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

thanks for getting the point. 

I would love to commute on an e-bike. But we saw that people like g-spin have no regard for anyone but themselves. 

Certain groups will always feel that their rights trump yours. All I'm saying is that as a community we have to protect our access to trails. If millions of people buy e-bikes but Sierra or equestrians lobby congress, what's the point? At that point market demand is trumped by special interest groups. 

Ontario just went through a pilot project. All the special interest groups need to do is argue for registration or treating e-bikes as motorized RVs. We lucked out because this wasn't a trail usage wasn't the issue, it was road use. 

Ebikes are no more evil than horses or mtb or MXbikes. It's about respect for others.


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## johnrobholmes (Dec 6, 2010)

Pulling this thread from the dead...

A preface of me. I have a damaged lower disc in my back and dislocated one of my kneecaps two years ago. Having been a very avid bike rider all of my life it was a sad day when I couldn't ride anymore. Ebikes helped me rehab my knee enough to get on a trike, which allowed me to rehab my legs and lower back enough to get back on a bike, and now I am again a bike rider. It would not have happened if I did not have the ebike to help me get going again.

Indeed it is about respect. Respect for people on the road, respect for people that built trails, and respect for people to make their own decisions about what is fun. I have built about 10 ebikes at this point for myself. Currently have three and one electric moped. And then 15 some odd normal bicycles that I prefer to not count. They are great tools for commuting, and in my area they are allowed on the multi use trails.

However, you won't see me on a single track with them for a few reasons.

-First, they are noisy. The motors grumble a lot and it disturbs the peace. 
-Second, I can't go any faster on the single track than I can pedal them. Therefore, there really isn't a reason to have assist since the point (for me) is to go faster than I can go by myself. 
-Third, ebikes are generally very heavy. Trying lug and flick around a 70lb bike just takes some fun out of blasting down singletracks. 
-Fourth, I have yet to ride or build an ebike that performs well enough on singletrack. Plain and simple, it holds me back.

Now, I will tell you a few cases where I WILL use an ebike offroad.

Trail building. At my farm it is very difficult to keep trails blazed. Even with a pretty big group of people riding the single track they grow over fast. If I can blast a few extra laps after I am wore out, it helps keep the trail intact. For initial trail building, having a few horsepower to push the trail bed down speeds the process greatly. No noise of ICE engines, but with all the benefits of having a powered two wheel vehicle.

Camping. A cart or trike allows for a lot of cargo. Having some extra power to grunt back and forth between the car or camp sites is icing on the cake, and when racing the sun it can be super handy.

And now for the ultimate Why??

Because racing this little guy around my basement and backyard is ridiculous fun.










The bottom line, Ebikes, Emopeds, or whatever the classification are fun. They help get my girlfriend on a ride with me, they reduce my car and truck usage to almost zero, and they are pretty cheap to operate. Don't sweat whether they will show up on your MTB trails. Let it be handled when the time actually comes. It may not ever become a problem.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Do not wait until they show up at the local trail . Deal with the issue now and put into place rules preempting the use of motorized bikes on your local trails .


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## johnrobholmes (Dec 6, 2010)

We already have rules that allow ebikes on the local trails. Federally, an assist bike is not a motored bike and will generally be treated as such. Legally, a 20mph 750 watt bike is not considered a motorized bike unless it is gas powered or over-powered otherwise. 

So you would prefer to deal with the "problem" before you know that it will be a problem? I would love to see somebody that isn't fit enough to ride a technical trail try with an ebike. They won't have the skills, and 750w bikes don't have the power for offroad riding. I firmly believe that there won't be a problem, as most "ebikes" just can't ride on the trails that MTBs can handle. Motored bikes are already outlawed, so that has been taken care of.


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Do not wait until they show up at the local trail . Deal with the issue now and put into place rules preempting the use of motorized bikes on your local trails .


:thumbsup:

quite right.
after all that is the nazi way of dealing with the iss(J)ue.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

gSPIN said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> quite right.
> after all that is the nazi way of dealing with the iss(J)ue.


You should retract this statement . :bluefrown:


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## newaccount (Jan 3, 2007)

johnrobholmes said:


> We already have rules that allow ebikes on the local trails. Federally, an assist bike is not a motored bike and will generally be treated as such. Legally, a 20mph 750 watt bike is not considered a motorized bike unless it is gas powered or over-powered otherwise.
> 
> So you would prefer to deal with the "problem" before you know that it will be a problem? I would love to see somebody that isn't fit enough to ride a technical trail try with an ebike. They won't have the skills, and 750w bikes don't have the power for offroad riding. I firmly believe that there won't be a problem, as most "ebikes" just can't ride on the trails that MTBs can handle. Motored bikes are already outlawed, so that has been taken care of.


Totally agree- your skills will be lacking to handle the speed and your wheelset with the cheap hubs and spokes will need to be rebuilt ever other ride.

Enjoy the trails at your own pace. You don't deserve to ride trails faster than your own abilities can take you.

To the injured- ride at a slower pace on easier trails. If you take a spill with your slipped discs, you'll have bigger problems to deal with than some people on the internet saying you don't belong on their trails.


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

AZ.MTNS said:


> You should retract this statement . :bluefrown:


hugo furst.

it's ur statement that attempts to whip up the we/they mentality as in "do not wait until *THEY* show up.."
a much larger group is vilifying & actively trying to marginalize an identifiable minority that hasn't done anything wrong & is undeserving of a witch hunt for the sole purpose of self-interests.
sound familiar?

i want everyone to paint a mental picture of AZ.MTNS with a tiny square bristle-comb stache under his nose standing on a podium in front of a teeming, cheering throng of mtb master race purists, emphatically gesturing & gesticulating with a lot of wild arm flailing, finger wagging & fist shaking delivering a stirring oratory that he opens with:

"Do not vait until zey show up at ze local trrrail !!!! Deal viss ze issJue *NOW!* und put into plaze hrules prhe-emzing ze..." 
and the crowd goes wild. yeah, yeah, rock on... sieg heil - sieg heil - sieg heil...

the particulars or skin may be different but the methodology the same, time-tested & well proven.
'sides, uve gone even further by repeating what i writ.
it's trapped it well beyond my reach within a quote, even if i were so inclined to remove it.

so spare me ur fake outrage.
ur so full of sh1t ur shirt is brown.


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## gSPIN (Jun 11, 2010)

froggy97 said:


> But we saw that people like g-spin have no regard for anyone but themselves.
> 
> Certain groups will always feel that their rights trump yours.


what a huge steeming lode of crap.
that charge is so easily demonstrated it is in fact *YOU* who are looking out for #1 & ur 'certain group' that u can't smell ur own stink anymore.

all ebikers keep a low profile on the trail cuz we're fully aware of the hostile prevailing snob mob mentality that's out there.
such a low profile in fact that ebikes have been on trails for quite some time with none the wiser.
i was perfectly happy to remain incognito & have my own quiet non-polluting fun same as all the other bikes out there, not bothering anyone but that's not good enuf 4u.

it's only after u became aware that ebikes have already sullied what u would like to believe is ur own personal domain (no thanx to the publicity in forums & magazines) that u couldn't handle it & started banging the drum that sumpthin must be done to expunge the undeserving, otherwise u still wouldn't have a clue.
it is in fact *YOU* sir that feel ur right trumps mine, that ur king of the mountain top, "mine, mine, go away, all mine!".

ebikes are invisible & treated the exact same under the law as any non-powered bike.
deal with it & stfu.



froggy97 said:


> All I'm saying is that as a community we have to protect our access to trails. If millions of people buy e-bikes but Sierra or equestrians lobby congress, what's the point? At that point market demand is trumped by special interest groups.
> 
> Ebikes are no more evil than horses or mtb or MXbikes. It's about respect for others.


but it's all good when ur the special interest group eh?

and b4 u go & wrap urself in a holier-than-tho cloak as some sorta champion for mutual respect...
did u reely think i didn't get to read ur post b4 it got deleted that was oozing with too much respect?
if ur gonna point fingers then have at it.
perhaps i need to refresh ur rememberry.


froggy97(deleted) said:


> Why do you need to write like an idiot? If you are intelligent then what's the problem? I like the idea of ebikes but you've got this Islamist-level anger about it. Are you an angry fat kid that doesn't have the lungs? Angry muslim fat terrorist?...


oh yeah, i can feel ur surging waves of respect, i can certainly c y it got deleted.
anyone wants to read 4 themselves the tru depth of respect in rest of his garbage just say the word (he does go on for quite a spell).
once again it is *YOU* who can't get a whiff of his own pile while accusing others of the same.
*YOU* r the 1 on the jihad.

thanx 4 the belly lol tho.


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## SpartyBiker (Mar 31, 2008)

Everyone does something for one reason or another.....people that do it for the exercise value will argue against assisted bikes.....people that do it to commute value that it's not for exercise but to avoid the petroleum sucking automobile--happy medium.

I say...don't worry about what others are doing as much as what you're doing......electric assist or not, they're not going to affect you so give it a rest.


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## SilkMoneyLove (Nov 1, 2010)

*I just want to throw a thought out there*

To all of those that are so concerned about the e-bikes damaging the trails, be careful how loud you protest. Other groups could easily protest against MTBs on the trail in the first place and then it is possible that NO BIKES could be allowed on the trails over the concern of damage.

More bikes = better.

I am a motorcyclist as well and have seen many places closed to riding due to concerns over damage.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

gSPIN said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> quite right.
> after all that is the nazi way of dealing with the iss(J)ue.


I think the term "Nazi" has been so repeatedly miss-used (such as here) that it has lost all relevance. Too bad, as it makes those truly deserving of the term harder to differentiate.

The horrors that the Nazis were responsible for were a result of them vilifying *people*, not *actions*. Prohibiting an action is not an example of one being a Nazi (assuming the rule is applied to all).

I realize the term "they" was used, but I think it is understood that it refered to people engaged in an action, and the point was to stop the action, not get rid of the people.

Ironically, I find the people in this country whose actions come closest to deserving the "Nazi" descriptor are often the very ones using it the most to label others. (To be clear I am NOT talking about you)


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## SpartyBiker (Mar 31, 2008)

I like that our current privileges enable us to argue between an electric-assist bike and a pedal-powered bike. It's almost as if we were teleported to the late 1990's or early 2000's when. No recession or depression....just spending and enjoying the trails regardless of whatever someone else was riding.


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## johnrobholmes (Dec 6, 2010)

I would like to see more discussion on the issue rather than just trolling insults at each other. I know that 95% of the people on this forum are normal folk, but it seems that 80% of the posting is done by the 5% internet tough guys that like to compare internet weewee size. 

but back on topic, has anybody actually run across an ebike on trails? I have run into them around my downtown area, but never on our multi use trail, and never on our singletrack.


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## froggy97 (Oct 16, 2009)

Discussion is difficult when morons like gspin want +4 kw bikes on trails. This is a mountain bike site and trail usage is a sticking point. 

They serve an excellent service to those are physically unable to ride a conventional bike. Each one is one less car on the road. And they are making a difference in cities where they are allowed

They will be on the trails. The question is, how? Some will be used responsibly, like trail building. Others will be nothing more than Gspin's electric MX bike. There is a history of self-absorbed idiots usurping the rights of others. Mike vandemeer was one of those Older riders will remember that POS from the usenet days

I don't need a wheelchair either. I wouldnt deprive someone from having one. The difference is that the trails are not about mobility or commuting. They are recreational and therefore have less intrinsic rights. The issue is not the ebikes, it's the riders. The silent majority will be screwed over by some kid with a deranged sense of entitlement. And everyone gets hit with the same brush. 

The issue is not people like you, John. You present sound thinking. It's the morons that we are worried about.


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## johnrobholmes (Dec 6, 2010)

A 4kw bike is a motorcycle legally in most states, so we already have plenty of laws to keep them off trails where they do not belong. 

I think much of the debate and confusion about what an ebike is could be helped by some common definitions. These are definitions that are on the law books, but can vary a bit from state to state:

Ebike (electric only)- 750w 20mph max USA, 250w 20kmph max EU. In the US this is a federal law that defines this as a non-motor vehicle
Moped & scooter- 3hp 30mph max Missouri, varies from state to state
Motorcycle- above state power and speed levels for moped/ scooter


While I don't really think an ebike belongs on a trail under my power, they don't have enough power to adversely affect the trail like a moped or motorcycle could. The bottom line is that ebikes barely produce power equivalent to a human at the tire, and they don't have the torque to spin a tire on a trail. I would love it if they had the shredding power that most people seem to think they produce, but in the end they are horribly inefficient at low RPM and are pretty wimpy. Perfect to assist somebody that needs it, not so good for blasting around trails on electric power alone.


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## seth586 (May 11, 2010)

You know, I commute 20 miles every day on a regular 100% human power bicycle. If I'm steamed out, an electric assist bike seems prefectly reasonable to hop on at the end of the day to make a grocery run. Or if I have 40mph headwinds to work, an ebike makes sense. Or I'll just drive my Jeep, you know, whatever I feel like doing.

Thank God most of us on this forum live in a free country! I think it's great that we can do whatever we want, so long as we don't impose upon someone else's rights! Like I always tell my wife, "Do whatever you want. Whatever sprockets your rocket, floats your boat, etc."


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## SpartyBiker (Mar 31, 2008)

I agree that my 18-mile round trip commute is human power; however, there are days when I just want to get to the finish line a little faster and I feel too tired to go as fast as I'd like.

Solution--gas or electric assist.


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## El Duderino X (Mar 11, 2010)

6bobby9 said:


> You do realize you could have lost the same amount of weight in a year (or less) without the motor right?


I should have mentioned that I did in fact drop the weight (the original 30 lbs) over a ten month period. 
I haven't been riding the ebike lately,only a couple times since Labour Day, opting instead for my two IGH bikes, usually my Dahon. When I do use the ebike its as a workhorse/hauler. Still damned useful and glad as hell to have it.


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## CrystalBay (Dec 11, 2005)

Why are trolls that have no interest in Ebikes allowed to nef here?


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## markus_mudd (Aug 21, 2009)

It's hard to believe the original poster is so upset about this one lil' forum existing on this big website. It's not even a supa' high traffic forum and there are soooo many others to choose from. Personally, I don't even notice the forums I don't read. Looking through the forums now.....I see a few I didn't know existed. There are "weight weenies", "Sea Otter Classic", and "vacations&destinations" forums. I never noticed they existed until today but they don't offend me. I don't relate to "weight weenies" but it's okay if they want to count grams and I'm not going to complain about their forum. 

As far as trail safety is concerned, I think a long suspension travel mountain bikes poses a bigger safety threat on the trails than an e-bike. Downhill oriented mountain bikes allow much higher speeds and a lil' more likelihood of a collision around those fast and blind turns. I really like them and would never want to ban them from the trails but, seriously, they're a higher threat to trail safety than someone with an electric motor bolted to their bike. Having said all that, I gladly share the trails with downhill mountain bikes and e-bikes because they're both fun in certain ways and neither of these are a REAL threat to my safety.


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## Maximus_XXIV (Jun 7, 2009)

Why not?


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## verve825 (Mar 16, 2005)

Maximus_XXIV said:


> Why not?


Because it's not a bicycle.


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## johnrobholmes (Dec 6, 2010)

verve825 said:


> Because it's not a bicycle.


According to the federal govment it is :thumbsup:

I wonder what makes you and your buddies think an assist bike isn't "valid"? Valid as what?


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## verve825 (Mar 16, 2005)

johnrobholmes said:


> According to the federal govment it is :thumbsup:
> 
> I wonder what makes you and your buddies think an assist bike isn't "valid"? Valid as what?


As valid as pedalling a real bike with your own muscle power.


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## finger51 (Jul 21, 2006)

I absolutely love it when they pass me on the bike path going 20-25Mph. It's great getting the b'jeezus scared out of you when they silently pass, at speed, with no warning within 12 inches of my handlebars. LOVE. IT.

/on opposite day


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## johnrobholmes (Dec 6, 2010)

verve825 said:


> As valid as pedalling a real bike with your own muscle power.


What makes a "bike" is having two wheels and nothing more. If you want to specify a pedal only bike, bicycle is the term that really denotes the power input. What makes a bike "real" anyhow? If it boils down to opinion (which it does), then assist bikes are just as valid as bicycles because I have my say in the matter too :thumbsup:

To say an assist bike isn't a bicycle is a pretty obvious statement, even if they are legally considered one and the same. Last time I checked motorcycles weren't bicycles either, nor are mopeds. You should really consider joining some other forums to let those people know that they are using bikes all wrong. They may even be on fake bikes! You have obvious convictions of how two wheels are properly used, no need to be so stingy and limit yourself to just this board!

finger51- There are *******s everywhere. I get buzzed on the Katy trail by road bikes and cross bikes on a frequent basis. Some have as much consideration for slower riders as verve has for assist bikes! How dare I enjoy the trail at a poky 10mph! Sounds like they need to learn to use a bell or verbal call as any other respectable biker would.


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## MoabiSlim (Apr 22, 2011)

*Dirt Bikes are Motorcycles Too!*

If they can have motorcycles that traverse the hilly pathways of nature, then why not e-bikes?

Anybody ever heard of Motocross racing? :thumbsup:

PS.

As e-bikes become more powerful, faster, and longer-lasting in terms of wattage, expect to see some form of e-bike "motocross" racing!


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

MoabiSlim said:


> If they can have motorcycles that traverse the hilly pathways of nature, then why not e-bikes?
> 
> Anybody ever heard of Motocross racing? :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


They already have electric motocross.......


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

*why not?*

It's funny, I commuted to work for a few days a couple weeks back. My commute is 45 min. one way. It was amazing how quickly cycling became un-fun. I didn't even want to go out on my normal club ride that I hit every tues night. If I had one of those e-bike wheels and a battery I'd ride to work eveyday the weather was nice. Oh, just so you know, I put in 6 or 7 hours on the bike every week, so it's not like I'm lazy.

Drew


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