# Leave the leaves, or blow them off?



## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

With fall here and trails experiencing leaves fallings, and being covered. Should trails maintainers let them lay? or should they be removed at all cost? or the answer somewhere in between? 

Why do you like trails that not leave blown? or why do you like trails that are blown back down to dirt?


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Are you paying them to do it?


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## OldSchoolMBer (May 25, 2013)

The horticulturist in me doesn't like bare soil so I'd rather leaves stay put


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

TwoTone said:


> Are you paying them to do it?


doesnt matter. 

Only matter what you think is ideal for riding.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

It leaves the leaves on the trail so they can look cool in a heavy frost and accumulate snow faster


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## DoctorJD (Jan 15, 2004)

I did a complete 180 on this issue after I saw what years of blowing did to one of our local trail systems. Before I go any further, let me say that there probably isn't a blanket answer to this question. It depends on the type of trail and the soil. The trail I'm referring to is an old-school rake-and-ride trail in an old-growth hardwood forest. After 10 years of blowing the trails multiple times a year, the mineral layer was blow away leaving thousands of roots sitting above the soil. The trail became almost unbearable, even on a 130 travel 29er. I joined the volunteer group that is trying to salvage the trails and we instituted a strict no-blow policy. It's only been a year, but you can already tell a difference. I love the trails after all of the leaves have fallen and there's this line of pulverized leaves from the traffic. 

Now, if the trails are machine-cut, built on IMBA standards, sure, I don't see the harm in it unless it's (again) done habitually.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

In my area the trails are all clay based, so leaf removal helps them dry faster. That said, there are too many trails to blow in some trail systems so the most that usually gets done is a foot-clearing of drainage areas to keep them open. In rockier regions or places where the dirt can handle wet riding, other than just making the trail easier to see and a bit less slidey, time is likely better spent doing other types of maintenance.


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## xcandrew (Dec 30, 2007)

I'll 🍂 this here:


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## Mike Aswell (Sep 1, 2009)

well so far this is going better than the same thread from last Fall.


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## fredcook (Apr 2, 2009)

I like when leaves litter the trail. Changes characteristics (visually and technically) to add change to frequented trails. Although, it does make it harder to spot copperheads on the trail.


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## frdfandc (Sep 5, 2007)

Depends on the trail. Most trails I ride I'm not worried about leaf cover. I usually have a knobby enough tire on the front to not worry about it. But there are a few trails where blowing is needed due to how the lines are on the trail.


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## MudderNutter (Oct 23, 2014)

I'll blow or rake leaves in certain spots if they are super deep and hiding something potentially dangerous. Besides that you gotta leave the leaves man.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

What? There are places on this planet where people blow leaves off trails?

WTF are they thinking?

Sheesh!

Glad I don't live / ride wherever that happens.
=sParty


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

If I ran across someone with a leaf blower way out in the middle of the forest I'm not sure what I would do but I know I would think he was nuts. 

Does he try to shake the snow from the all of the tree branches out in the national forest during a snowstorm?


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

frdfandc said:


> Depends on the trail. Most trails I ride I'm not worried about leaf cover. I usually have a knobby enough tire on the front to not worry about it. But there are a few trails where blowing is needed due to how the lines are on the trail.


can you explain more in-depth on how the lines affect leaf blowing or not?


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

Sparticus said:


> Glad I don't live / ride wherever that happens.


It is less than ideal, for sure. Clay turns to goop turns to rutted up concrete turns to perma-puddles. Add in a lack of elevation and I wonder why I am still here. But I am, so I do what I can.


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## frdfandc (Sep 5, 2007)

BushwackerinPA said:


> can you explain more in-depth on how the lines affect leaf blowing or not?


My hometown trails I'm not worried about leaf cover except for a couple of spots where the trail is off camber, rooty and on a sharp right hand turn. Thats where I like leaf cover to be blow there. And there is a place where I love to go called Raystown. It's part of the Allegripis rage near State College,PA. Most of the trails are fine when it comes to leaves, but the lower portion of the trails are more natural with some gravel mixed it. A little sketchy when it's mid fall in this area. Leaf cover just makes the lines harder to see when moving at a faster clip for me. Like I said, not too often, just a few select spots.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

frdfandc said:


> My hometown trails I'm not worried about leaf cover except for a couple of spots where the trail is off camber, rooty and on a sharp right hand turn. Thats where I like leaf cover to be blow there. And there is a place where I love to go called Raystown. It's part of the Allegripis rage near State College,PA. Most of the trails are fine when it comes to leaves, but the lower portion of the trails are more natural with some gravel mixed it. A little sketchy when it's mid fall in this area. Leaf cover just makes the lines harder to see when moving at a faster clip for me. Like I said, not too often, just a few select spots.


I have rode Raystown(I am from pittsburgh), and honestly that is one place where I wish they would leave the leaves, and its get so dusty and blown out.


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## frdfandc (Sep 5, 2007)

BushwackerinPA said:


> I have rode Raystown(I am from pittsburgh), and honestly that is one place where I wish they would leave the leaves, and its get so dusty and blown out.


I agree for the most part and it's fine to have leaf cover. But the lower section, Sidewinder, heading down to hydro, is where leaf cover can be a little sketchy. Same for up near the camp sites when doing the far western stand along loop (I forget what it's called). 

To be honest, I'd like to get back out there again and go ride all day.


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## fredcook (Apr 2, 2009)

BushwackerinPA said:


> can you explain more in-depth on how the lines affect leaf blowing or not?


I know you were asking *frdfandc*, but for me, although I like to leave leaves on the trail, there are some trails I ride that are made up of non stop rock gardens. Those trails do require a clear view of line choice to avoid significant consequences. I wait for leaves to naturally dissipate on those trails. Sooo... leaves don't affect the lines, per say, they affect the ability of _seeing _the lines.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Leave 'em except in small specific places where there is a clear reason. 

For example: 

leaves clog drainage, especially culverts of various types and oftentimes also things like grade dips/reversals. clean them out before they compact in and get more difficult to remove.

in places with an awful lot of them and the trail itself is extremely narrow and the forest is open, leaves can obscure the whole trail and you will get LOTS of braiding as people lose the tread and just go through the woods. that sort of thing doesn't mean you have to blow all the leaves off, but maybe it does need some extra work needs to be done to keep the trail corridor as the most obvious path. extra blazes on trees, maybe a little raking to make an obvious line, something.

and realistically, the "obvious line" issues are really only problematic when there are a LOT of leaves that dump suddenly and you have a lightly traveled trail where the leaves don't get compacted as quickly as they fall.

Where I live, we have a lot of oaks and they don't tend to do a big leaf dump. the leaves fall off a lot more slowly, so we don't generally get super thick leaf cover that totally hides the trails. Those oak leaves are pretty durable, though, and they clog drainage structures pretty easily. we don't use culverts, but we use lots of big grade dips. a rake is fine to clean the leaves out if they are what clogs a drainage. but most of them are big enough that the leaves get washed out and what really clogs them up is sediment.

we oftentimes get decent wind throughout the winter, so after the leaves get compacted and pulverized under tires, they get blown off from the wind in most places, anyway. so it generally isn't an issue. plus we have enough trail mileage that even entertaining the idea of larger scale leaf removal gets to be ridiculous.

I DO NOT consider reductions in traction or hiding the roots/rocks to be a valid case for leaf removal. it's mountain biking. trail conditions should be expected to change. riding through leaves that might be wet/slippery is part of riding in the autumn/winter. don't be such a roadie.


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## Gman7 (Jul 11, 2008)

xcandrew said:


> I'll 🍂 this here:


Hope there isn’t a rock or down log under there 🤕


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

Leaves trap moisture. Trails dry faster in the spring if the leaves are blown off in the fall. For that reason alone I think the leaves should be removed from the trails in the fall. That and I don't like how slippery they get and how they hide a feature that may cause a crash.

Buddy of mine sprained his knee this spring wiping out on leaves that IMO should have been cleared last fall.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

Harold said:


> I DO NOT consider reductions in traction or hiding the roots/rocks to be a valid case for leaf removal. it's mountain biking. trail conditions should be expected to change. riding through leaves that might be wet/slippery is part of riding in the autumn/winter. don't be such a roadie.


I am going to post a longer verison my thoughts. but I am almost always pro never leaf blowing or raking.

but there are trails around with me "guide" stones. These stones are places on the side of trail to keep people on the trail. This really is not worry if they are small or so large they are basically allways visiable. IMO these stones are places VERY poorly and actually cause far more harm good when it come to trail braiding, trail erosion and how enjoyable the trail is to ride. They present a real danger in leaves when you can not see them as they were not naturally places but artificially placed. They can be high enough that you can clip an inside lifted pedal on them.

its hard to see on this video but you can kind of see all the stones places on apex and entries. 






but basically this trail is impossible to ride if the leaves get to couple inches on it. 

but honestly IMO the real issue are the guide stone and not the leafs. I have no issue with rocks on the trail being covered with leafs, its artificially places rocks on the side of the trail


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

prj71 said:


> Leaves trap moisture. Trails dry faster in the spring if the leaves are blown off in the fall. For that reason alone I think the leaves should be removed from the trails in the fall. That and I don't like how slippery they get and how they hide a feature that may cause a crash.
> 
> Buddy of mine sprained his knee this spring wiping out on leaves that IMO should have been cleared last fall.


eh they do, but they also turn to organic matter which regulates moisture way better mid summer. Trails with a layer of loam tend to not get wet as quick or get dusty in droughts. 

Your buddy slipping out on leaves, means he should learn to ride or get spikey tires. Mud spikes in leaves offer velcro level of grip if you want it.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

BushwackerinPA said:


> but honestly IMO the real issue are the guide stone and not the leafs. I have no issue with rocks on the trail being covered with leafs, its artificially places rocks on the side of the trail


In addition to guide stones we have left over stumps on some of our trails.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

BushwackerinPA said:


> Your buddy slipping out on leaves, means he should learn to ride or get spikey tires. Mud spikes in leaves offer velcro level of grip if you want it.


He know knows how to ride. Probably not going to get spikey tires for the few weeks in spring that leaves are on the trail before the wind blows them away. Just how it is...sometimes slippery leaves wash out the front tire on corners.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Here, the leaves rot and create a mess of muck that clogs all the drainage ditches/holes and everything else, besides the nasty spray they create as they are rotting in place. They create a new layer of dirt/crap that is easily tracked/rutted and that creates puddles and blocks the water from shedding off. It's more work in the spring for us to do. They do not blow or rake the leaves off here, but on some key trails, they really should, it would cut down on our work significantly and not screw the trail up as much (drainage).


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## NWA_Tre (Sep 30, 2021)

Mike Aswell said:


> well so far this is going better than the same thread from last Fall.


give it time...


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## NWA_Tre (Sep 30, 2021)

On our trails, no leaves is best. Trails are cut into the side of rock hills, narrow, steep exposure, with a floor of rock, loose gravel, and roots. The water drains across the trails due to the steep slopes. Leaves clog drainage, hide obstacles, and are of no real benefit to the surface type we have. The local Ag extension office told our maintenance director that for the amount of loam that the leaves contribute, and the amount of time it takes to turn to loam, it was not useful to leave them on the trail. Again, we have a rock base. Water drains through the trails without much erosion, so loam is not really needed unless you like mud.

We do NOT blow leaves. We gently rake with springsteel. We take every effort to leave as much substrate underneath as possible and only remove the leaves. Otherwise you're just helping erode the trails


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## mtnbeer (Jul 2, 2007)

The big leaf maple (its a coastal PNW species) leaves get really slippery. The leaves are roughly 10-12 inches in diameter and are wet and slimy in the fall. If they are left on the trail it makes the traction pretty unpredictable.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

Unpredictable traction is an integral & challenging part of PNW fall / winter riding.
=sParty


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## Koogs (Mar 25, 2016)

I dunno, I ate it last fall due to misjudging a drop off with a bunch of leaves, broke my collarbone. 
There were a bunch of leaves built up that made a line look rollable, and it was more of a steep drop.

I was OK with leaves up until that point.


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## Blue Dot Trail (May 30, 2018)

In 90% of the circumstances I say leave the leaves. The only time I would like to (but I never have) remove them is in low-lying boulder fields. It can be crazy dangerous when leaves cover a boulder field. It’s personally sent me over the bars on many occasions over the years. Besides that, I like the way it looks.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

A lot of the trails around me in southern NH get blown otherwise they simply disappear under the leaves. Leaves can also accumulate in low spots and make the trails very dangerous because what looks like flat trail is actually an 8" deep rut...


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## Blue Dot Trail (May 30, 2018)

Koogs said:


> I dunno, I ate it last fall due to misjudging a drop off with a bunch of leaves, broke my collarbone.
> There were a bunch of leaves built up that made a line look rollable, and it was more of a steep drop.
> 
> I was OK with leaves up until that point.


Same thing happen to a buddy of mine about 10 years (???) back. Leaves had filled in a drop > it swallowed his wheel > he flipped over the bars > broke his collarbone. Still to this day he gets squirrelly when riding during Fall.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

This is what a lot of our trails look like right now, and yes, there are wet sniper-roots hidden in there. You hit one of those at the wrong angle and it's like wet ice.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

Jayem said:


> This is what a lot of our trails look like right now, and yes, there are wet sniper-roots hidden in there. You hit one of those at the wrong angle and it's like wet ice.
> 
> 
> View attachment 1952250
> ...


Looks like you need to get out there with a leaf blower!


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## mtnbeer (Jul 2, 2007)

Sparticus said:


> Unpredictable traction is an integral & challenging part of PNW fall / winter riding.
> =sParty


I just don't ride the trails thru the big leaf maples during the wet fall days, I ride were there's more pines or cedars. Pines are usually at higher elevation that drains better.


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## wschruba (Apr 13, 2012)

Jayem said:


> This is what a lot of our trails look like right now, and yes, there are wet sniper-roots hidden in there. You hit one of those at the wrong angle and it's like wet ice.
> 
> 
> View attachment 1952250
> ...


Looks like local trails, in the sense that: if you're a local, you're fine. If you're visiting/riding alone, good luck finding the trail in spots.

That, imo, is the only significant issue with leaf (or snow) cover. That also happens to be, in my opinion, a part of the seasonal changes. Like in normal life, you either learn to enjoy it for what it is, or you get out of wherever it happens for somewhere that it doesn't.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

My friend and I rake lower sections of a local trail. After the first big Santa Ana event, the oak leaves are six inches deep. Luckily most of the trail is sugar pines with some ponderosas. A blower would attract the attention of Forestry and we barley got away with a talking to for being caught in there with shovels and mcleods.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Between leaf blowing and not leaf blowing, I have seen very few trails that truly benefit from leaf blowing.
I have never seen a trail ruined by leaves.
The perception is that someone is taking care of the trail, but in the long run they are blowing away dirt and the materials that eventually become more dirt.
Leaves act as a buffer to the freeze-thaw cycle - I have observed this first hand on many occasions.

Leaves can block drains and should be removed from drains.

Sometimes leaf cover hampers navigation. This is about the only other scenario where some leaf removal is beneficial - although I think it is a fun, seasonal thing to have to find one's way without actually seeing the trail. Yes, even through rock gardens.

-F


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

It's also beneficial in the spring for those of us in the snow belt. When the snow melts and we have spring rains, the leaves trap all the moisture underneath. If removed they allow the sun and wind to dry the trail in the early spring months. Leaving them there delays opening the trail and when the trail does open anywhere that there are leaves left = muddy spots.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

A bunch of people here are lucky enough to have trails made out of dirt and rocks. Unfortunately many of us are stuck in the land of clay, which is great until continuous moisture sets in. Then it becomes a curse. 

The trails would never be ridable outside of a dry summer or frozen winter if left to make new dirt though decomposition. The organic material is already gone from the tread and the drying time would be far too long as they clay layer is on the surface. Where I am at is very busy and most people don't give a damn about trail maintenance so they will ride it wet, leave ruts and make holes which then serve to make the issues worse as they collect and hold water. Then people ride around the mud holes, widen the trail, braid it out, etc. Anything that can be done to hasten drying is helpful to the system at large.

The blessing of heavy use is that the leaves get crushed and moved aside when they dry out by the traffic, so blowing is not really needed. It is a far different experience where I am at than places I ride in rockier areas like East Tennessee where the leaves help to fill in places that are losing soil and the trail composition is such that the moisture and organic matter are very beneficial overall.

All that said, the idea of blowing leaves off a mountain bike trail will never sound normal to me. It may be big-picture helpful in some places, but just seems weird when considering why most of us ride in the first place.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Fleas said:


> Between leaf blowing and not leaf blowing, I have seen very few trails that truly benefit from leaf blowing.
> I have never seen a trail ruined by leaves.
> The perception is that someone is taking care of the trail, but in the long run they are blowing away dirt and the materials that eventually become more dirt.
> Leaves act as a buffer to the freeze-thaw cycle - I have observed this first hand on many occasions.
> ...


Maybe it's where you live?

Here, decomposition is so aggressive that it starts turning into slime muck almost instantly, then it's mud, then it starts damming the drains and then the puddles form, they get larger and larger, etc...


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## TippyD (Dec 6, 2017)

Generally, I have come to the opinion that letting them lay is best. 

Especially if the trails see a lot of use. They get compacted and ridden in during the time the leaves are falling and don't pile up too deep. If they are too deep at the end of the leaf drop season, maybe lightly remove some of them.

For trails that get little use, I find that there are areas on the trail where the wind accumulates them most (turns, low spots, etc.) and I will rake some of them out of those spots, especially if there are hidden roots or rocks to get up and over.

Some argue that the trails dry out faster without the leaves. I think this depends upon the amount of rain and how often the rain falls. In my experience, an average rainfall wets the leaves much more than the ground and tend to dry out nearly as quickly as the ground does.

I've also noticed that on the trails that are not raked or blown, there is less erosion and therefore, less trail maintenance required.


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## slohr (May 22, 2008)

DoctorJD said:


> I did a complete 180 on this issue after I saw what years of blowing did to one of our local trail systems. Before I go any further, let me say that there probably isn't a blanket answer to this question. It depends on the type of trail and the soil. The trail I'm referring to is an old-school rake-and-ride trail in an old-growth hardwood forest. After 10 years of blowing the trails multiple times a year, the mineral layer was blow away leaving thousands of roots sitting above the soil. The trail became almost unbearable, even on a 130 travel 29er. I joined the volunteer group that is trying to salvage the trails and we instituted a strict no-blow policy. It's only been a year, but you can already tell a difference. I love the trails after all of the leaves have fallen and there's this line of pulverized leaves from the traffic.
> 
> Now, if the trails are machine-cut, built on IMBA standards, sure, I don't see the harm in it unless it's (again) done habitually.


Yep. Feel the same way. If your singletrack is real singletrack, not a road for an F-250, then just keep riding it as the leaves come down. You know where the rocks are.


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## slohr (May 22, 2008)

BushwackerinPA said:


> I have rode Raystown(I am from pittsburgh), and honestly that is one place where I wish they would leave the leaves, and its get so dusty and blown out.


Yeah, I try to get to Raystown about 3-4 times a year, and it could benefit from some leaf decay. It does get dry and dusty, and more and more roots are showing up.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Jayem said:


> Maybe it's where you live?
> 
> Here, decomposition is so aggressive that it starts turning into slime muck almost instantly, then it's mud, then it starts damming the drains and then the puddles form, they get larger and larger, etc...


Where is "here"?

I'm in NE Ohio. Any trail that drains properly seems to do OK with whatever leaf cover it gets. The parts that hold water anyway are bad even without the leaves - and those often accumulate a depth of acorns, which can be pretty crazy if they're hiding under a pile of leaves. 

-F


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## Big8urns (Oct 12, 2021)

frdfandc said:


> I agree for the most part and it's fine to have leaf cover. But the lower section, Sidewinder, heading down to hydro, is where leaf cover can be a little sketchy. Same for up near the camp sites when doing the far western stand along loop (I forget what it's called).
> 
> To be honest, I'd like to get back out there again and go ride all day.


They used to blow them all the trails on the Ray's Revenge Side, but not the dirt surfer side. Not sure if they still do or not. That being said, over the years the soils out there have really become blown out. Beat down to rocks and roots from smooth, buff flow trails. I don't disagree with some of those trails being challenging when they are leave covered, but it just means more people need to get out and ride them.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

There's a local trail where they blow off a good portion in the fall for a trail running event. It's very obvious what sections get the leaves removed and which doesn't. The part that gets blown is really rough with exposed roots (basically endless roots) the other parts are pretty loamy. It's kinda wild how stark the difference is. We also don't have to deal with much snow too though.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Fleas said:


> Where is "here"?
> 
> I'm in NE Ohio. Any trail that drains properly seems to do OK with whatever leaf cover it gets. The parts that hold water anyway are bad even without the leaves - and those often accumulate a depth of acorns, which can be pretty crazy if they're hiding under a pile of leaves.
> 
> -F


I took a picture last night because I found a great typical example. Everything here in AK grows and decays at vastly accelerated rates. Here, leaves and organics have decayed into muck, not moving it off earlier and continued riding has created a dam where the water can no longer reach the drain. There is a pit behind the dam, where the trail slopes towards, so the water will run off. It will no longer function and the spot will become a big mud pit. Continued riding will make the muddy portion lower than the drain/slope to the pit. Yes, I know some people will say "but if the trail was designed and built perfectly", but I can tell you from a design and work-crew-leading background, it's not possible to design and build every trail perfectly. It just doesn't happen in reality. So we try to fix the areas we can fix, dig pits, trenches, drains, slopes, etc. Even when the trail is built well, this stuff turns to muck and blocks off the drains on the trail, creating the mud pits.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Jayem said:


> I took a picture last night because I found a great typical example. Everything here in AK grows and decays at vastly accelerated rates. Here, leaves and organics have decayed into muck, not moving it off earlier and continued riding has created a dam where the water can no longer reach the drain. There is a pit behind the dam, where the trail slopes towards, so the water will run off. It will no longer function and the spot will become a big mud pit. Continued riding will make the muddy portion lower than the drain/slope to the pit. Yes, I know some people will say "but if the trail was designed and built perfectly", but I can tell you from a design and work-crew-leading background, it's not possible to design and build every trail perfectly. It just doesn't happen in reality. So we try to fix the areas we can fix, dig pits, trenches, drains, slopes, etc. Even when the trail is built well, this stuff turns to muck and blocks off the drains on the trail, creating the mud pits.
> View attachment 1952457


Good example.
Yes, we get that too - even on well-built sections. I try to just kick the drains open - sometimes just as I'm riding by. Sometimes it takes a bit more than a kick to manage the area, but I still prefer to concentrate on just the drains while leaving the leaves everywhere else. Sometimes it's all about timing and getting them cleared after enough have accumulated, but before the trail goes to mush - then you only have to do it once/season.

-F


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Fleas said:


> Good example.
> Yes, we get that too - even on well-built sections. I try to just kick the drains open - sometimes just as I'm riding by. Sometimes it takes a bit more than a kick to manage the area, but I still prefer to concentrate on just the drains while leaving the leaves everywhere else. Sometimes it's all about timing and getting them cleared after enough have accumulated, but before the trail goes to mush - then you only have to do it once/season.
> 
> -F


Yeah, it's not to be anal and try to get all the leaves off the trail or anything like that, just where they've accumulated and are turning into muck or blocking drains. Both tend to create muck-holes, but definitely not trying to sanitize the trail of leaves either.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

I don’t really think about the issue from a rider experience perspective. I think about it from a trail sustainabilty perspective.

From a rider experience perspective, it is pretty straight forward: I prefer the trail blown off.

But from the more important sustainability perspective,,,, it depends on the trail section… and there is still a bit that is not known or agreed upon.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

A group of us did a 13 mile ride on our local system yesterday. Leaves are so bad that you can't see the trail in places and many of us went off the trail.

The trail is now going to get blown off this week.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

prj71 said:


> A group of us did a 13 mile ride on our local system yesterday. Leaves are so bad that you can't see the trail in places and many of us went off the trail.
> 
> The trail is now going to get blown off this week.


I went out with a friend of mine on Friday afternoon and it was the same thing, trail just disappeared in places under the leaves.


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## Hibikealot (Oct 14, 2021)

Leave the leaves.
Cannot believe this thread,how the 🍂🍁are the enemy SMH.
Leave the damn leaves alone for the most part unless some deep sections or on off camber slopes where when wet can send you sliding down hill or drop, better yet learn to adjust your riding to conditions and adjust accordingly.
After freezing rain do you expect your car to go around corner at same speed when it's dry 😂?
If so you are a lost cause.

End Rant.


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## prj71 (Dec 29, 2014)

We don't like the trail disappearing. So we are a lost cause and we are going to blow the leaves away this week.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Hibikealot said:


> Leave the leaves.
> Cannot believe this thread,how the 🍂🍁are the enemy SMH.
> Leave the damn leaves alone for the most part unless some deep sections or on off camber slopes where when wet can send you sliding down hill or drop, better yet learn to adjust your riding to conditions and adjust accordingly.
> After freezing rain do you expect your car to go around corner at same speed when it's dry 😂?
> ...


As a trail builder and maintainer, except for a few rare exceptions, you want compacted dirt as the top layer of a trail, to prevent ingress of plants, to prevent erosion, to prevent all sorts of bad conditions. This is literally the opposite of having leaves on the trail. The reason the part of the woods without a trail is like that is due to the fact that you let the leaves and everything just fall in place. Again, I'm not advocating for blowing out leaves with a leave-blower, but you are trying to remove plat matter decay and organics from the trail surface as a trail builder. Letting that stuff pile up the opposite of what you want. Not to make the trail easier or harder, but to keep the surface in a compacted dirt condition that sheds water. This is very dependent on location, some locations drop leaves all year and it's not really a thing to have them in mass. Some places drop enough so you are deep in it. That stuff starts decaying almost immediately.


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## Hibikealot (Oct 14, 2021)

Jayem said:


> As a trail builder and maintainer, except for a few rare exceptions, you want compacted dirt as the top layer of a trail, to prevent ingress of plants, to prevent erosion, to prevent all sorts of bad conditions. This is literally the opposite of having leaves on the trail. The reason the part of the woods without a trail is like that is due to the fact that you let the leaves and everything just fall in place. Again, I'm not advocating for blowing out leaves with a leave-blower, but you are trying to remove plat matter decay and organics from the trail surface as a trail builder. Letting that stuff pile up the opposite of what you want. Not to make the trail easier or harder, but to keep the surface in a compacted dirt condition that sheds water. This is very dependent on location, some locations drop leaves all year and it's not really a thing to have them in mass. Some places drop enough so you are deep in it. That stuff starts decaying almost immediately.


I understand the need to remove leaves for many circumstances but it's really not practical to blow them from any trail systems I'm familiar with,my local trail does get raked for safety concerns In dangerous section and of course if navigation becomes impossible.
But geeze what's next,pads on trees,I jest of course 😆


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

Jayem said:


> As a trail builder and maintainer, except for a few rare exceptions, you want compacted dirt as the top layer of a trail, to prevent ingress of plants, to prevent erosion, to prevent all sorts of bad conditions. This is literally the opposite of having leaves on the trail.


Where I live the leaves are compacted in a few short weeks and act as a water barrier. It doesn't decay into a thick mass or anything here.


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## Autoxfil (Sep 18, 2019)

I have trails I would never blow, and trails I clear every year. It depends on the soil and terrain, but much more the level of traffic. If there is minimal traffic - like the trails I have on my own property, which see maybe 100 rides per year (mostly me), I blow them off. They would just disappear if I didn’t. 

For heavily-trafficked trails which get the leaves pulverized by traffic as they fall, I tend to let them lay. The exception are trails made of clay, which are rare here but do stay much drier without the leaves, and some very heavily sculpted flow/jump trail. 

Pre-COVID, we used to blow a bunch of local parks because there was such a high ratio of trail miles to riders. Last year we didn’t have to touch a thing. All the new riders and hikers smashed them down, and I got to spend my trail work days bench-cutting and digging drainage.


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## chiefsilverback (Dec 20, 2019)

I was riding some pretty popular (at the weekend) trails today and ended up OTB because I hit some loose rocks hidden under the leaves…


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## JaxMustang50 (Jun 26, 2017)

In north FL we have two falls. One near Christmas, and one from March through April. I'm not sure what specific species are responsible (some types of oak) but it makes for an almost back to back leaf fest for ~5 months of the year. 
I never heard of trails being blown clear, until I rode one in a rather well-to-do area. I couldn't believe it. I laughed most of the ride but did appreciate that I could enjoy railing the corners as usual instead of only the occasional corner that has been cleared due to heavy traffic.


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## Dirt Engineer (Sep 12, 2012)

The trail I built and manage gets the leaves blown off 1-2 times a year in the late Fall. We just did all 9 1/2 miles about a month ago in about 3 hours. 10 dudes with 10 back pack leaf blowers made short work of it. We decided to wait later in the season to do it so we only had to do it once. Then whatever falls off the trees after that just get scattered off the trail. If we didn't blow them off we'd have several inches of nice wet, soggy organic material keep our red clay muddy.


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## Stanceslao (Nov 5, 2021)

it poses potential risk for leaves covering trails.. but my backyard, I leave them leaves, makes the soil healthier...


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