# Talk to Me About Riding an E-Bike with no Battery Assist



## a a r o n (May 22, 2009)

Never mind that I'm probably crazy for asking....


The idea of an E-MTB intrigues me. Turning multiple laps where I'd normally do only 1 and going faster through technical sections...


...but these days my fitness is at all time highs. And I love it. I don't want to lose out by riding an e-bike so much that my fitness on the regular bikes suffers. 


My thoughts are.... I could pedal the e-bike to the trail with the battery off, ride some fast laps, then pedal home with it off. Or, I could ride a lap or two with it off and then rip a couple fast laps with full power but tired legs in order to work on technical skills.

Question is: who has experience riding an E on and off road with no power assist? What have your experiences been? Is this a feasible approach? 

TIA


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

I've tried my Giant Reign E+ Pro 1 with the power off several times. One time was when I actually ran the battery dead about a half mile from the trail parking lot where my truck was. I was out that day trying to see what mileage I could get from full charge to completely dead, and I guessed about a half of a mile too long. 

For me, I wouldn't want to do much pedaling without the battery. It was a very slow grind for the half mile I rode with a dead battery. If it was all downhill with no battery it might not be too bad but that wasn't the case for me. My ride with a dead battery was pretty much all uphill, but it wasn't too terribly steep. If you like to grind and suffer, it might not be too bad, but for me, it isn't something I would consider "fun". It almost felt like pedaling a regular bike with both brakes engaged at about 50% power.

Now, since you mentioned pedaling your bike to the trail with the battery off, I will say I rode my bike on some pavement at the bike shop before I took it home, and tried it out there without power. On pavement, the pedaling didn't seem too awful bad. Matter of fact, in the parking lot and surrounding roads on pavement, it actually pedaled better than I thought it would without power.

I don't have any trails near enough to me to ride my bike to them, but I would say that if it were the case for me, and there wasn't any huge hills between my house and the trail, I would probably ride my bike on pavement to the trails without power in order to keep more power in store for the trails. I wouldn't consider doing laps on any type of halfway difficult off-road trail without the power though. 

On my bike, I ride in mostly eco+ and normal power modes. Eco mode on my bike doesn't feel like it helps much at all, so I ride eco+ for the first hour or hour and a half, and then bump up to normal mode to finish off the ride. Trail and Trail+ modes are fun, but the mileage decreases significantly using those modes so I rarely use them.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I built a 35 pound rigid bike with BBS02 and rode it without assist on flats and downhill without effort. Hills were more difficult, but possible (ran the battery - 52V, 6 ah Luna - "dry" once). If I were young and strong, probably I'd eschew "e". Sounds like the Specialized "SL" might be your ticket.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

You can alternate, no assist, low assist or simply different 
bikes on different days.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

I have a fair amount of experience riding with the bike off. 

Here is what you need to know. The motor will mask a poor pedaling bike. If you want to ride it with the motor off the bike has to be set up for easy pedaling to begin with. 

If you have a heavy Enduro e bike with high rolling resistance tires and downhill gears on the cassette you are probably going to think you are trying to tow start a bulldozer with the power off. 

On the other hand if you have a XC bike or easy Trail bike, set up tubeless with low rolling resistance tires and something like a 11 X 46 11 speed cassette in back your probably going to pedal with it off a fair amount of the time. 

Basically if the bike you're on would pedal like a pig if it was not an e bike, it's going to pedal like a bigger pig with the power off. If your bike would pedal easy as a non e bike, it will pedal fairly easy as an e bike with the power off. 

It's simple enough. If you want considerably more range, autonomy and want to ride power off much of the time. Pick a bike that would pedal easy as a non e bike, set it up like its a non e bike for pedaling and you will find that it pedals nice as a power off e bike. 

If you want slack geometry, downhill beef, believe the electric compensates for everything and want the electric just to avoid the shuttle then you might want to think about driving it to the trails instead of pedaling it there without power on.

My bike is a fat bike with XC/Trail geometry. I run either tubeless 26 X 4.8 Jumbo Jim's or tubeless 29 X 2.25 Schwalbe G-One All Around tires. I run a 11 x 46 cassette on both sets of wheels. Both sets of tires are very low rolling resistance. My bike is on the heavy side but set up to pedal easy and there is no drag from the motor. 

Yesterday I rode the paved bike path with the 29" wheelset and the power off. Conditions were 80 Deg F (27 C) fairly flat and little wind and no saddle bags. Only a small cooler on the bike rack. Both batteries were on the bike, 1,080 Wh. I could maintain a speed of 14-16 mph (22-26kph) for 14 miles. My power usage was 12.2 watt hours ( lights, displays and charging I phone) With the Jumbo Jim's I can average 11-14
My return trip was fast. Speed stayed right on 20 mph on the road and power usage was 12 Wh/mile (7.5 Wh/k) pedaling with the same amount of effort. Max peak watts was 676 on the return. 

There are those riders out there who could pedal long distance with any e bike shut off but that is not me. You have to decide what is right for you and how you are willing to compromise.


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## Fat&SkinnyCO (Nov 23, 2014)

OP, I see that you’ve had some good input thus far. It seems that your implied question is about fitness and ebiking so I will give you my first hand experience.

I’ve been riding road, mtn and fat (fat in the snow) for many years and I added ebikes for all disciplines this past November. My riding fitness level is high and I would be described as a fast recreational rider. I’ve raced in the past and I’m active in local club rides.

During the week after work, I ride eMtb and eRoad in the lower power settings. I’m pushing hard to get a great workout and to go as fast as possible. On the weekends I ride non-powered mtn and road. My typical 35 mile weekend mtb rides are still as fast as previous years, before my eMtb riding.

To directly answer your question, the only times I’ve ridden my eMtb without power is when I ran out of juice while pushing the limit. Riding a 50lb mtn bike in the mountains is a massive workout! Sure, you could turn off the power and ride, or you can just keep the power on in the lower settings and work just as hard but go much faster. 

Yes, your approach is feasible, just cycle through the settings from no power to low power. I don’t “train” anymore although still like to ride fast (powered and non-powered) so I just hammer in eco mode and I still get my fitness.

One last point to consider, when I’ve been too tired or too unmotivated to ride one of my non-powered bikes, I will ride my ebike. After warming up I feel better and end up riding hard. I’ve always ridden a lot but now I ride even more!

I hope that helps, happy ebiking!


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## a a r o n (May 22, 2009)

Thanks for the insight, everyone. 

Forgive my ignorance, but does an e-mtb with the motor off have any more resistance at the crank than a regular bike does from just normal friction in the BB?


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## a a r o n (May 22, 2009)

Fat&SkinnyCO said:


> OP, I see that you've had some good input thus far. It seems that your implied question is about fitness and ebiking so I will give you my first hand experience.
> 
> I've been riding road, mtn and fat (fat in the snow) for many years and I added ebikes for all disciplines this past November. My riding fitness level is high and I would be described as a fast recreational rider. I've raced in the past and I'm active in local club rides.
> 
> ...


That last bit especially gives me plenty to think about! Thanks


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## The Squeaky Wheel (Dec 30, 2003)

a a r o n said:


> Thanks for the insight, everyone.
> 
> Forgive my ignorance, but does an e-mtb with the motor off have any more resistance at the crank than a regular bike does from just normal friction in the BB?


Not that I've noticed.

But pedaling without the motor, aside from the small jaunt from the parking lot to the start of the trail, isn't something I'd choose to do.

I think Fat&SkinnyCO's post is a good one and I generally agree. I find myself riding MORE since purchasing an ebike.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Reading e-bike reviews, it's said that the Levo SL pedals just like a normal bike when power is turned off. The bike is pretty light, but the big thing is that they got the motor to not have any resistance when the power was off.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

Fat&SkinnyCO said:


> One last point to consider, when I've been too tired or too unmotivated to ride one of my non-powered bikes, I will ride my ebike. After warming up I feel better and end up riding hard. I've always ridden a lot but now I ride even more!


This is very accurate for me as well. Since I got my e-bikes, my average seat time went from about 2-3 hours a week to about 7 hours a week, and just have more fun.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

AGarcia said:


> This is very accurate for me as well. Since I got my e-bikes, my average seat time went from about 2-3 hours a week to about 7 hours a week, and just have more fun.


Man, I really envy you guys that get to ride a lot. I could only dream of finding that much time in a week to ride. Maybe one day when the kids are grown up....


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

MX9799 said:


> Man, I really envy you guys that get to ride a lot. I could only dream of finding that much time in a week to ride. Maybe one day when the kids are grown up....


The grand kids will get you more seat time.


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## MX9799 (Feb 11, 2018)

PierreR said:


> The grand kids will get you more seat time.


That's still a long ways off though.... Hahahaha.


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## AGarcia (Feb 20, 2012)

MX9799 said:


> Man, I really envy you guys that get to ride a lot. I could only dream of finding that much time in a week to ride. Maybe one day when the kids are grown up....


I hear you! I have a full time job that keeps me pretty busy, but I only have one kid, 11 years old, and he rides now too. But more often than not, I get up at 6:30am on weekends for rides before he or my wife are out of bed, and during the week I often go for night rides with a few other neighborhood dads (usually around 8:30pm to 10:30 pm).

And as you can imagine, its often hard to get motivated at those times of the day/night for a ride, but the e-bikes make it easier to just get up out of bed or off the couch and go outside, even with a busy life.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

The Pivot Shuttle pedals very well without the motor and better than the Levo but if you have steep climbs, you still have a 45 lb bike to pedal. I have done it just to test it without power but I did not like it one bit. Even at 45 lbs which is lighter than most, any long steep section was awful after 2 mins. Flats are fine for a while actually. We don't have many flats here so I base all my experience on climbing. Unless you are close to the trails and I am a few hundred yards from 50 miles of singletrack, I would not consider doing that myself.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

I have a light ebike now and I believe it will be a key niche segment in the future of ebikes.

32 lbs!

https://reviews.mtbr.com/video-lightest-e-mtb-sub-32-lbs-with-dropper-and-pedals

What I do is I start the ride for the first 30 minutes with no motor. This gets me warmed up gets my muscles that pain, crank turning muscle workout that is usually lost. It feels good. This bike feels just like a mid-level Stumpjumper climbing. And then I turn on the motor and climb another 4000 feet.

I've tried this many other bikes like the Pivot Shuttle, Specialized Levo, Haibikes and they ALL feel like ****. The Shuttle is the best since the Shimano motor doesn't drag too much. The Levos feel like molasses since turning those cranks with no motor on feels like churning in pea soup. But... I've broken motors and run out of batteries maybe 50 times. So I've done my work of e-no motor.

fc


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

That's good input.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

fc said:


> I have a light ebike now and I believe it will be a key niche segment in the future of ebikes.
> 
> 32 lbs!
> 
> ...


That link says ... Five models range in price from $6,525 to $16,525
i do not consider 16,000$ a bike
what do you call that?


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I'd be very interested in that type of bike like the SL. That is probably perfect for me. In another two years, it will be under 30 lbs and have a 100 mile range or 8000 ft of climbing with the main battery. I'll sell the Shuttle and jump on that. I have an extra battery for those few crazy rides that go on all day.



fc said:


> I have a light ebike now and I believe it will be a key niche segment in the future of ebikes.
> 
> 32 lbs!
> 
> ...


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

33red said:


> That link says ... Five models range in price from $6,525 to $16,525
> i do not consider 16,000$ a bike
> what do you call that?


Highway robbery


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## The Squeaky Wheel (Dec 30, 2003)

my 57lb YT Decoy definitely does not like going uphill without motor power


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## Vin829 (Mar 29, 2019)

Another Levo SL owner here. I do the same thing FC does. If its flat i spin with the motor off. But that bike is amazing. Feels like a normal bike with the motor off. I just have a hard time keeping up with my buddies on full Levos when they are in turbo mode. Which seems to be 90% of the time when we all ride together LOL


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

fos'l said:


> I built a 35 pound rigid bike with BBS02 and rode it without assist on flats and downhill without effort. Hills were more difficult, but possible (ran the battery - 52V, 6 ah Luna - "dry" once). If I were young and strong, probably I'd eschew "e". Sounds like the Specialized "SL" might be your ticket.


Your throttle only, or did you install a pedal assist controller like a KT display? Even with throttle assist, at level zero is no power at all and strictly only pedal power.

I dont know how much drag there would be with a BBS01/02/HD or the Cyclones with the geared mid drive motor vs a direct drive with obvious drag. DD's need just a tiny bit of power to over come that drag, say 1W even but on a dead battery the drag can be tremendous, especially on a big leaf 35/mxus 40/mxus 45mm dd motor, vs a wimpy generic 25/30mm 9C for example. Those are lam overall widths, not indiv lams. 
I had the big Cyclone installed, and never really noticed much drag, but see I am used to big dd motors with a ton of drag, more powerful magnets I guess, means more power. Geared hubs have no drag, MAC motors, but with trapezoidal controllers can be loud vs sinusodial controllers which can be a bit more silent.

As far as OP goes, sounds to me like its just a store bought ebike, riding with no power at all whether that be assist level 0 with no power at all when pedaling, or battery off. 
vs throttle only with no pas, which no store bought ebike would do, I would guess, proprietary system and legalities and all.

How much of a drag do the Bosch type motors have when no power is applied? I remember reading that some people have felt a tiny bit, but was that gear mesh drag or magnet drag that would happen all the time.

The BBSHD's are a nice motor setup, can get decent power out of them for sure. The Cyclone's are even larger and heavier, too much noise for my liking. Paying $3k+ for a proprietary ebike, should be really silent, but still limited to 750W or whatever it is.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

matt4x4 said:


> Your throttle only, or did you install a pedal assist controller like a KT display? Even with throttle assist, at level zero is no power at all and strictly only pedal power.
> 
> I dont know how much drag there would be with a BBS01/02/HD or the Cyclones with the geared mid drive motor vs a direct drive with obvious drag.


I can believe his 35 lbs of bike with the BBSO2 and mini cube battery. I built a bike for my wife with the same setup and it came out at 39lbs

The BBSO1/O2/HD have a clutch system similar to a cassette hub that isolates the motor when pedaling without power. You have no drag from a spinning the motor.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

My Giant/Yamaha Ebike is about 52 pounds and it rides like any bike if i am back from the grocery with 20 pounds in my backpack, nice on a small downhill, slow to accelerate on flat...


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