# Owww, Ma A$$ Hurtz! I need a couch-saddle



## DrvLikHell (Aug 9, 2016)

So I'm getting back into mountain biking after a 10 year hiatus. Before that I used to do pretty well on the trails with my ancient rigid Pine River. On top of single track riding, I logged over 10,000 miles of road riding on the same bike. So I'm not exactly new, I'm just new to all of the new stuff.

Now that I'm getting back into it, I got myself an old Trek full suspension and I'm having a blast. The bike had a WTB Speed V saddle on it, which should have been named the WTB Concrete. After a short 15 mile street ride it felt like someone was drilling wood screws into my sit bones with a hammer drill. When I got home I couldn't even sit in my well padded computer chair without leaning sideways. Three days later I still couldn't ride the bike. A week later with a cheap padded seat cover I could barely ride short rides. Even six miles was still painful. 

Now, way back when, I went through a lot of seats before I found my Holy Grail of seats. I rode a Selle Royal gel seat for a long, long time time and thought that was as good as it gets. I still had to get off and walk now and then after the 40 mile mark, and I had to slowly pry myself off of it after 60+ miles, but I could ride all day. Eventually the Selle Royal came apart and I stole my moms Memoflex II seat after she lost interest in riding... And OMG, I had found my Grail. I NEVER had to get off that seat. 40, 60, 80 miles straight. It didn't matter, my ass was never in pain.

So, once again the Memoflex was re-appropriated to my new steed and all of my ass problems went away. Until I broke the Memoflex. It's currently being held together with the afore mentioned cheap padded seat cover.

I've been scouring eBay for a used replacement, but no luck. They have a newer and less padded version with no springs called the Spandura, but I'm skeptical. See, my Memoflex II not only has springs in the back, but it also has long 1/4" thick coil springs supporting the gel padding in the middle where a normal seat would have a rigid frame. So there's absolutely no possible way my sit bones could come anywhere near a hard object. It's built like a couch and it's absolutely dreamy. Perfect for my fat yet ultra bony ass.

I'm posting in the Clyde section because I'm 6'1" and 215ish before clothes, shoes, gear, etc, and recommendations regarding what seat to use coming from riders who are 150lbs kitted out don't exactly hold a lot of weight with me. I also searched and read quite a few posts about saddles for big guys, but I'm specifically looking for a couch that I can still ride the trails with. My Memoflex II is so plush that I can push my finger two inches into it. Even then the resistance my finger meets is from the stretch of the material, not from any hard object. That's no exaggeration.

I looked at a few different Serfas', the Selle Royal Classic Avenue, Velo Elastomer, Velo Vacuum Plush, and the Cloud 9 Comfort, but I'm not sure about any of them. I'd really like some in put from people who either have similar issues, or who've ridden, or are riding on thick gel couches. Because that's what I want. I don't care if it's heavy, or ugly, or looks like it belongs on a cruiser. Though I don't need/want an ultra wide saddle. My Memoflex is 10.5 long by 7.5 wide. 

Suggestions on plumpness are greatly appreciated.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

Everybody's undercarriage is . . . . . unique, like a snowflake. You're just going to have to try a few to see what works for you.

The larger, and more padded they are, the more it won't likely matter so much exactly which one you get IMHO. 

Keep in mind that the wider they are, the more they are meant for an upright riding position, and therefore will also be harder to maneuver around when riding more technically advanced terrain (if you do that). In addition to obvious choices like the Trico, Serfas, and Planet Bike offerings, I would also suggest taking a look at some of the Brooks saddles. I have had a B17 Champion for quite a while that is pretty comfy, and I have recently tried a Cambium C17 Carved that I really like too. They also make a C19, but do not offer the 'carved' option in that width.


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

I have had good luck with Selle SMP saddles. Not super gushy soft but great fit for me. I run the Avant version, slightly wider than PRO. Get hold of a demo if you can...


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## DrvLikHell (Aug 9, 2016)

jeffj said:


> The larger, and more padded they are, the more it won't likely matter so much exactly which one you get IMHO.


That's what I'm thinking too. The softer and more squishy, the less everything else matters. I'm not looking for a really wide seat, 7.5 inch like I have is just right. And it's fine for technical stuff at that width too. At least for me. I'm not tryin to go all Olympic hopeful, I'm just out to romp around in the trees.

Those Brooks look like they have no padding at all. I know that a lot of people rave about them, but when I sit on things that look like that, it feels like I got spikes stickin outta my ass... Then after an hour or so, it feels like I got spikes stickin IN my ass. (Not that part of it!)

While the Selle SMP looks sweet, it doesn't look like it's got enough plush. You ever see a real skinny person squatting in tight shorts, and you can see the angles of the bones in their pelvis instead of the curve of their gluteus? Well that's me, except I'm not skinny, so I got 215lbs sitting on those sharp points. I have the same problem if I sit on a concrete bench while leaning forward on a table playing cards. 15 minutes of that and I gotta get up and walk around. Unless I'm winning, then I'll sit on my leg or something.

Super gel squishyness is what I'm hoping to find. That's what my Memoflex II is like.


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

If you get the right sized saddle for you, then it's comfortable. You don't need a sofa, you don't need all that padding, ESPECIALLY with a FS bike. You just need a pair of proper padded cycling shorts (that you can wear under something if you want) and a proper saddle that supports your sit bones in the right place. The larger the saddle, the harder it is to put any proper effort down, harder to move around and more saddle to rub against you.


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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

I ride a old price point sette saddle , basically the same thing as a WTB Pure V.
Specialized has some real good saddles, pretty sure they make some that are up to 155mm. Nashbar and Aerotech cycling both make shorts for big boys..


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## NYrr496 (Sep 10, 2008)

Pure V and Sugio Essential liners.


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## katsup (Jun 28, 2016)

I am 6'2" at 210-215 and have a Cloud 9 Comfort Men's Saddle on my hardtail MTB and a Selle Royal Respiro on my hybrid. Both saddles allow me to go ~30miles in cargo shorts without pain, but I have not yet pushed myself further without breaks. I mostly ride XC with some single track with the MTB. I could see where the Cloud 9's size could get in the way of more technical trails, but it has been nice for me as I wouldn't take the bike out if it hurt.


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## DrvLikHell (Aug 9, 2016)

katsup said:


> I am 6'2" at 210-215 and have a Cloud 9 Comfort Men's Saddle on my hardtail MTB and a Selle Royal Respiro on my hybrid. Both saddles allow me to go ~30miles in cargo shorts without pain, but I have not yet pushed myself further without breaks. I mostly ride XC with some single track with the MTB. I could see where the Cloud 9's size could get in the way of more technical trails, but it has been nice for me as I wouldn't take the bike out if it hurt.


Wow, thanks for the input katsup. That's perfect timing. Those are two saddles I'm looking at after saddle shopping today. The only non-couch saddle I found today that might work is the Selle Royal Respiro Soft Athletic. But even that feels like it's probably too thin for my pointy sit bones. The Cloud 9 was super plush and I'm sure it would cause no pain, but it felt really big. As an in between I'm looking at the Selle Royal Classic. Though I'm sorta maybe leaning towards the Cloud 9 because pain makes the ride unenjoyable. And I ride because I enjoy it.

I thought about padded shorts but I live in south Florida where it sits in the high 90s every day, all day during the summer with spikes into the low 100s for a day or three. I already pour sweat in the summer when I ride, so I think adding another layer of clothing/insulation is probably not a good idea for me.

I've tried out many saddles over the years ranging from narrow to granny-wide but all of them hurt my sit bones when given enough time (with the exception of my beloved Memoflex II). Today when I was out saddle shopping I sat on a few on some new bikes and even just sitting on the thinner ones, without even riding, brings the pre-hurt feeling.

This isn't limited to bike seats either. When I sit on a bar stool, bench, plastic chair, or even a too thinly padded office chair, my sit bones will hurt if I spend too long leaning forward while seated.

I checked out that video on how to measure your sit bones but the cardboard didn't work for me. My back side is either too fat or my sit bones are oddly shaped compared to everybody elses. Thanks for the advice so far guys. Gonna hit the trail tomorrow with my broken Memoflex and contemplate its replacement.


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## katsup (Jun 28, 2016)

Remember that everyone's sit bones are different. I had the Cloud 9 before I got the MTB so I put it on as it was better than the seat it came with. The Selle came with a used bike. I figured that as I'd lose weight, my seat preference will change so I didn't want to buy more saddles than I needed. I'll likely replace them with something different when they wear out and hopefully I'll be 20-30lbs lighter.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&k...&hvtargid=kwd-482788757&ref=pd_sl_oabhykuw0_b

Not that I advocate getting a Comfort Bike Saddle, but take a look at those.


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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

DrvLikHell said:


> Wow, thanks for the input katsup. That's perfect timing. Those are two saddles I'm looking at after saddle shopping today. The only non-couch saddle I found today that might work is the Selle Royal Respiro Soft Athletic. But even that feels like it's probably too thin for my pointy sit bones. The Cloud 9 was super plush and I'm sure it would cause no pain, but it felt really big. As an in between I'm looking at the Selle Royal Classic. Though I'm sorta maybe leaning towards the Cloud 9 because pain makes the ride unenjoyable. And I ride because I enjoy it.
> 
> *I thought about padded shorts but I live in south Florida where it sits in the high 90s every day, all day during the summer with spikes into the low 100s for a day or three. I already pour sweat in the summer when I ride, so I think adding another layer of clothing/insulation is probably not a good idea for me.*
> 
> ...


I live in west central Florida , and wear aerotech baggy padded shorts and nashbar baggy shorts..they are actually cooler than regular shorts. I wouldn't knock them until you try them.
If you wanna ride a beach cruiser cloud seat , great... Just know that it's not needed.


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## DrvLikHell (Aug 9, 2016)

johnD said:


> I live in west central Florida , and wear aerotech baggy padded shorts and nashbar baggy shorts..they are actually cooler than regular shorts. I wouldn't knock them until you try them.
> If you wanna ride a beach cruiser cloud seat , great... Just know that it's not needed.


I understand. There's two avenues: pad your pants, or pad your seat. I prefer to pad my seat and wear whatever pants I pick out of my closet. Others prefer to pad their pants and run a slim seat on their bike.


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

Go to a bike shop and get your ass measured. It's a thing. Your sit bones are no different to anyone else - perhaps by a few mm in distance apart, but we're more alike than we are different.


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## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

jeffj said:


> The larger, and more padded they are, the more it won't likely matter so much exactly which one you get IMHO.


 I'm not sure exactly what this is getting at- the larger, more padded seats tend to be the most uncomfortable, in my experience. Get fitted for your seat: This is hands down the most important factor in saddle comfort. Find a proper bike shop that does fitting and has a selection of demo saddles for you to try, so you can find one that works best for you. The saddle that I have on my road bike has very little padding, yet it is comfortable on 50-100 mile rides.


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## DrvLikHell (Aug 9, 2016)

I went to six different places yesterday and none of them had demo saddles or offered fittings. The Trek store had the largest saddle selection, the rest only had three or four different saddles. The guy that I used to go to years ago has either retired or dropped off the face of the planet because he and his shop are nowhere to be found anymore. There's one more place I can try for a saddle fitting, but they're very expensive.

As far as larger saddles being more uncomfortable, I've found it to be the opposite in my experience. But I also don't ride a road bike so I'm in a totally different position when I do long rides. I ride very upright on long rides, like a cruiser type position. 

My current couch-saddle is broken in the front so I can still ride with it. It makes cranky noises but it stays in place for now. I did 19 miles of trails today and I kept in mind what you guys said about large saddles getting in the way of technical riding. I hit a more technical section of the trail, and pushed really hard on the rest of it, but my saddle never got in the way or caused any kind of hindrance. The only issue I ever have is from the seat being so high because of my height. But even a thinly padded seat will still have to be that high. What's supposed to happen when a saddle gets in the way?


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

Most Specialized dealers do saddle fittings and yes, sometimes, saddles are expensive.

You need the freedom for your legs to move for you to effectively get power to the pedals. A big sofa saddle restricts that because it just gets in the way and stops you pushing down properly. For technical sections you want to be up off the saddle and moving around as freely as possible. That's why dropper posts are so popular. Even with a normal saddle it's frustrating enough to have to get 'around' the saddle. If the trail is sloping down, you should be standing up and positioned more over the back of the bike and that means getting over and behind the saddle. The bigger the saddle, the harder that is.
Perhaps you're riding less technical stuff and don't need it, but I think most people here expect to spend some time off the saddle and moving the bike beneath them and want that to be as easy as possible.


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## TraxFactory (Sep 10, 1999)

OP has pointy sit bones, like unusually pointy from what I read. So I could see the need for some extra gel in the sit bone area.....

If you never feel the saddle is impeding your ability to get behind it (if you ever need to), let the bike oscillate up / down while standing through a rough section or just generally get hung up on the saddle than it sounds like your good with the style of seat you have / riding style. There are a million out there. Keep looking.


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## DrvLikHell (Aug 9, 2016)

TraxFactory said:


> OP has pointy sit bones, like unusually pointy from what I read. So I could see the need for some extra gel in the sit bone area.....


Yes! Exactly. Even when I was a kid I had saddle issues. I was the only kid on the block with a woolly sheepskin seat cover to help ease the ouch (and I was skinny then).

Thanks guys for the explanation of how a saddle can get in the way. Reading that makes me feel better about my saddle preference. I was starting to think maybe I'm doing something wrong. I definitely don't do the kind of riding you guys described. At least not yet. Remember, I'm getting back into this after a 10 year hiatus. Also, this is South Florida, we don't have enough elevation for monster drops, and there is no such thing as "downhill" here (I've ridden 20 miles with an overall elevation change of about 9 feet). I don't get out of the saddle all that much, though I know I should be up more often. I can definitely see where a couch would get in the way when you're trying to get out back over the rear wheel, but there's really nothing like that around here, and if there were, I'm not ready to ride it yet.

My current saddle isn't so wide that I can't push down to pedal properly. Even when I'm leaning forward somewhat aggressively it's not a problem. When I get off the saddle it's just for a short climb or to let the bike oscillate through a quick dip or over a table top or something. I'm never out of the saddle during any corners and we don't have anything technical enough to be standing for. Or maybe I just don't take it fast enough to need to stand?

I test rode a cheap Schwinn super-cruiser gel saddle today on a friends bike. It felt nice and squishy in my hand, just like the saddles on the rack at the stores. But when I sat on it, then thing felt like a soft brick. It had a tiny bit of give but was seriously firm under that. There's no way I could ride on that saddle for more than a couple miles before it would hurt. It was really surprising because there was so much squish when I squeezed it by hand. Now I have to rethink my options. I'm going to see about ordering a few on Amazon that have Amazons free return policy.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

SpecialiEd is very good at making saddles. They have a line of fitness saddles that might suit you. The Cup (OMG,what a name), mentions cupping the sitbones. It may be designed for people with pointy sits. Specialized has a good return policy. ( the Expedition also emphasizes sit bones, the others tend to focus on soft tissue, but that doesn't mean one of those may get not be best for you.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/components/saddles/fitness

The reason the Schwinn saddle didn't work was that cushion without rebound or springs just compacts, which hurts. You need cushion and springs. I think the Specialized saddles have internal springs. Later, after you are more acclimated to riding, I recommend looking at a Pre-broken in Brooks with big springs, they do make them. Either the B-67, Flyer, or one of the models with the giant springs. (B-32, 33, whichever works with a modern seat post).


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## DrvLikHell (Aug 9, 2016)

Muirenn: You're right about the cushion without springs eventually resulting in impact after the cushion is compressed all the way. My current seat has a web-spring base and it also has two big coil springs in the rear. The Schwinn had two coil springs in the rear also, but they didn't seem to move much. Mine moves a lot, and the web springs make it so it's impossible for my sit bones to ever compact the gel padding into something solid like on a normal seat.

This is what I mean by a web-spring base: 







That's exactly what mine has; the long skinny springs that run front to back. Though the rear coil springs on that Cloud 9 pictured above are gigantic compared to every other saddle I've looked at. Even my current saddle doesn't have coil springs that huge.

I'll have to look into some of those specialized saddles to see if they have springs inside, or just on the back. The Brooks saddles look really nice, but they're way outta my price range.

I broke another part of my saddle today so I'm gonna have to find something in a hurry, or it's back to the WTB Speed V and lotsa ouch.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

Sorry to revisit but is it possible that you're sitting on the bike "wrong"? My ass would hurt too if I rode my current seat with high bars, or tried to coast along a bike path at low speed with my hips back. I've never seen a multi-hour road or mtb rider on the sort of seats you're looking at. But your posture can't be totally broken if you're happily riding 19 miles of trails.

To check bar height: can you share a side photo of your current bike setup?

Regardless of saddle there are several sorts of conditioning before you'll be comfortable on a bike, one is adapting your sit bones to the seat, another is developing the leg strength to support yourself when bent over. When riding you should not be supporting all your weight on your seat, your legs and core should be engaged and holding you up too. The feet are what takes the load.

Personally my saddles need a narrow nose, otherwise the side of the seat interferes with my leg muscles which is intensely uncomfortable and only gets worse with time. I also find that more than a little 'padding' is just an excuse for my sit bones to sink in, which causes the saddle to interfere with surrounding muscles which is painful.

I had a big problem with 'numbness' when I started spending winters on the trainer. My problem there was the soft tissue at the 'taint' was getting bruised and causing numbness. This is another problem you cannot just ride through.

I don't know what is going on with the bike stores you are visiting. Every store I went to (in seattle) expected me to take saddles home and try them with no questions refund if it didn't work - that's what good bike shops do. The better stores also had trainers so I could try a bunch back to back.

My sit problems were solved by trying every saddle I could until I found one that worked. I came home with 6 saddles, must have tried 10-15 others in stores. I really liked the looks of some saddles but there was no rhyme or reason to explain what was comfortable - needed to try it for at least 5 minutes once the correct saddle position was found. The winner for me was the Specialized Phenom which fits my bones well and gives mucho space to my perineum, my sit bones adapted in a few days.

Seriously try everything you can, it shouldn't cost anything to try a bunch. The second best seat I tried was the Giant Contact SL which was scary hard but still a huge relief: the shape is what mattered. Note these saddles were for the trainer where I sit and grind in the saddle for hours in the same position. I'm not nearly so picky when on the trails since I am much more active out of the saddle.

Another candidate: my newer bike came with a Chromag Trailmaster LTD. This is a long narrow yet softer saddle and is by far the most comfortable seat I've ever tried with lots of different comfortable positions so maybe give it a go?

FWIW: I also found the speed v was really uncomfortable for my ass and thighs because when my sit bones sunk into it it felt like it cutoff blood flow to my muscles. I tried

Lastly: please can you consider some quality bike shorts? Find some higher end Pearl Izumi on sale. They make a huge difference in my riding comfort because no seams around the saddle contact. I know you don't want to but you might be surprised how much they help.

Good luck in your search!


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## DrvLikHell (Aug 9, 2016)

eri: Wow, thanks for the lengthy reply and all the advice. Since you spent quite a while typing all that I'll do my best to address your points.

It's quite possible that my posture isn't good. I got my Trek second hand and it's one size too small for me. It's a medium frame and I need a large. I'd probably be fine on an xlarge also. The seat tube is 18" and the effective top tube is 23.6. All the fitment guides I read say that I should be on a bike with around a 21 inch seat tube. That would be a size large in the VRX that I ride, and in size large it would have a 25.2" effective top tube, so I'm about an inch and a half short on the top tube. I've compensated for this by moving my seat farther back on the rails and switching to handlebars with a 2" rise and tilting them forward slightly to fake some extra stem length (My stem is an Icon Graphite @105mm). With the new handlebar setup everything felt much better. The day before yesterday I rode 19.7 miles of trail, Yesterday I rode 9 miles of streets, and today I rode another 19 miles of trail. I could happily ride 20 or 30 miles of whatever tomorrow. Previously I've ridden 20 miles of street directly followed by 12 miles of trail. My legs will raise the white flag before my ass does. So, as you said, I mustn't have things totally botched up.

Here's the requested picture of my bike as it sits, taken about 10 minutes ago:

The seat looks like it's angled too far downward in front because it's broken. When I sit on it it's fine. My seat is actually a little too low for street riding. But I like it lower for trail riding so I'm not just touching my toe in the dirt when I stop. Don't mind the rear fender, it's there to keep the rear wheel from hitting the saddle bag and tearing a hole in the bottom and raining tools all along the trail. The bar ends are angled as they are because when I go on long street rides I change positions on and off, and I often sit more upright gripping the tops of the bar ends.

I would say that my feet and hands are engaged in bearing some of my weight while on the trails. Though I have a bad habit of staying seated a lot more than I should. While I'm cruising on the street I'm in cruise mode and most of my weight is on the saddle. 

My current saddle doesn't have that narrow of a nose yet I don't have any issues with interference. When I have just a little padding my sit bones scream in agony after a few miles. The WTB Speed V was fine except for pain in the sit bones. No numbness or any other issues. With my old-old Selle Royal I used to get numbness after a long time in the saddle, like after more than two hours. But this never happens with the Memoflex II. 

As far as the bike stores go, remember, you're in Seattle which is a very trendy place with lots and lots of awesome mountains and trails around. Your MTB rider count per capita is probably 100 times that of where I live in South Florida. Elevation in my neighborhood is 20.1 feet above sea level (according to Google). There is only one trail in my whole county and it's only 12 miles long if you ride all of it once. That means we have very, very few mountain bikers, and thus not enough demand for the type of bike stores that you have up there.

I'd love to try 15 different saddles, but there are probably only 15 different saddles to be had if I went to all the bike stores in town (not counting the 10 inch wide granny saddles). And the only reason there might be that many is because the Trek store had about eight or ten themselves. The next place had five, but two were take-offs from new bikes. There's two more bike shops that I'm gonna check out this weekend. They're supposed to be good. I'll see if they offer free trials, though I seriously doubt it. And if they do, I bet they'll expect me to try them in the store and buy one on the spot.

I would love to try specific recommendations, but it's not likely that I'll be able to find them at a local store. My best option to try different saddles is to order them from Amazon and make sure they have the option for free returns. To complicate things I'm on a tight budget.

And lastly, I'm scarred on my left leg and I don't wear shorts, so they're not an option. I always wear pants, which is why wearing padded bicycle shorts underneath isn't an option either. I'm hot enough as it is.

Hopefully I'll find something this Saturday when I go shopping again. Otherwise I'll order a couple from Amazon and see what happens. 

I really appreciate all the input.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

DrvLikHell said:


> eri: Wow, thanks for the lengthy reply and all the advice. Since you spent quite a while typing all that I'll do my best to address your points.


Sure thing. I'm just some random shmoe on the internet. I'm helping my brother-in-law to start riding and your posting read like you're having similar issues as him. Hope I can help and hopefully someone else will correct my mistakes.

FWIW I set his bike up 'correctly' and he was in huge ass-pain for a few weeks. After his first ride his ass hurt for 4 days. Now 2 months later his ass has acclimitized and he rides for an hour or so without trouble. Key was getting his posture correct on the bike, weight off hands, then he had to condition his sit bones and also condition his legs and core to hold his weight while riding. The core work is huge and he now looks really natural on the bike.



DrvLikHell said:


> It's quite possible that my posture isn't good. I got my Trek second hand and it's one size too small for me. It's a medium frame and I need a large. I'd probably be fine on an xlarge also. The seat tube is 18" and the effective top tube is 23.6. All the fitment guides I read say that I should be on a bike with around a 21 inch seat tube. That would be a size large in the VRX that I ride, and in size large it would have a 25.2" effective top tube, so I'm about an inch and a half short on the top tube. I've compensated for this by moving my seat farther back on the rails and switching to handlebars with a 2" rise and tilting them forward slightly to fake some extra stem length (My stem is an Icon Graphite @105mm). With the new handlebar setup everything felt much better.


Frame fit works like this:
1) Position seat relative to pedals. When seated and crank horizontal you want the knee roughly over the pedal and leg slightly bent when leg is at fullest extension. That means your seatpost extensiona and saddle position fore/after are not negotiable. You cannot make up for a small frame by moving the seat around. Seat goes where your feet and leg lengths dictate and everything else follows from that. Notice that actual seat tube length plays no role whatsoever in bike fit (unless its too long and you can't lower your seat enough.) Lots of modern bikes have tiny seat tubes and long seatposts, they do this to get the top-tube away from your gnards. Actual frame fit is dictated by 'reach' which is a combination of seat tube angle and 'effective top tube length'.

2) Position bars comfortably, both forward and height. This is just a matter of picking the right stem and bars so you're comfortable. On a really short frame you'll have a problem with weight too far forward over front wheel and your balance on the bike will be wrong, but that is what it is. You will hurt yourself riding with bars in the wrong position. The tough part starting out is that you won't have the core and leg strength to have bars low but in a very short time those muscles will develop and you'll find the bars are too high. I would stick with comfort for now.

The frame sizing is a bummer but it is what it is. Not the end of the world. At least that frame gives you great standover clearance! If I were you I'd keep your eyes open to sell this bike and move into a simple front suspension or rigid hard tail that FITS.

Maybe spend some time reading up on frame fit, and how to position your seat. This forum has serious experts and knowledgeable people to help and years of posts about fit. You should read up on it.



DrvLikHell said:


> The day before yesterday I rode 19.7 miles of trail, Yesterday I rode 9 miles of streets, and today I rode another 19 miles of trail. I could happily ride 20 or 30 miles of whatever tomorrow. Previously I've ridden 20 miles of street directly followed by 12 miles of trail. My legs will raise the white flag before my ass does. So, as you said, I mustn't have things totally botched up.


I suspect that doing things a bit differently would really help your comfort. There is some big picture ergo stuff that you should dial in, and which long term will matter more than what seat you are using. I think your hips might be rocked back while you ride, they need to be canted forward to fit on a bike seat. Could be you have really tight hamstrings.



DrvLikHell said:


> Here's the requested picture of my bike as it sits, taken about 10 minutes ago:
> View attachment 1105761
> 
> The seat looks like it's angled too far downward in front because it's broken. When I sit on it it's fine. My seat is actually a little too low for street riding. But I like it lower for trail riding so I'm not just touching my toe in the dirt when I stop.


Ok, that is a red flag to me. I think your seat must be too low. You should never be seated when starting or stopping. You should be forward off the seat when you come to a stop, heels comfortably planted. Stopping while seated is either a recipe for tippy disaster or your seat is much too low. On my current bike I run my seat a bit low and I can just barely scrape the ground with my toe while seated. Try and get used to starting while just standing on the pedals. No Ass-To-Seat until a few pedal strokes and you're moving. Same when you come to a stop first stand on the pedals.

Here is a simple exercise: take the seat/seatpost off your bike and go for a 10 minute ride. That will teach your body about weight on the pedals, no weight on the hands and how to rely on hip, leg and buttox strength. At first it will feel weird and be very tiring but the muscles and tendons that standup riding rely on are capable of being big and huge, you just need to grow them. I think you'll find once those muscles are being used correctly that your hips cant forward more and you'll appreciate a less padded seat.



DrvLikHell said:


> The bar ends are angled as they are because when I go on long street rides I change positions on and off, and I often sit more upright gripping the tops of the bar ends.


The bar ends are also a red flag for me. I think your handlebars are too low for your comfort, you're providing yourself posture relief with the bar ends, but that means hands are away from the brakes and will be unstable. I think you need to:

1) Raise and position your saddles for correct leg extension and correct knee over pedal.
2) Get a stem that puts your handlebars up where you want them. Maybe for now you want the bars a few inches about the correct seat position.
3) Practice riding without a seat to develop your legs and hips.

A 'good' bike store would have many stems in order to fine tune your fit, and a knowledgable fitter...



DrvLikHell said:


> As far as the bike stores go, remember, you're in Seattle which is a very trendy place with lots and lots of awesome mountains and trails around. Your MTB rider count per capita is probably 100 times that of where I live in South Florida. Elevation in my neighborhood is 20.1 feet above sea level (according to Google). There is only one trail in my whole county and it's only 12 miles long if you ride all of it once. That means we have very, very few mountain bikers, and thus not enough demand for the type of bike stores that you have up there.
> 
> I'd love to try 15 different saddles, but there are probably only 15 different saddles to be had if I went to all the bike stores in town (not counting the 10 inch wide granny saddles). And the only reason there might be that many is because the Trek store had about eight or ten themselves. The next place had five, but two were take-offs from new bikes. There's two more bike shops that I'm gonna check out this weekend. They're supposed to be good. I'll see if they offer free trials, though I seriously doubt it. And if they do, I bet they'll expect me to try them in the store and buy one on the spot.


Sorry! I understand and apologize. We are blessed with 2 or 3 really really good stores here, key is that the employees know way way more than me and I gladly pay for that service. But even here in seattle we have a lot of shitty bike stores where the workers brought their expertise from Burger King and KFC. Can only imagine if those stores were my only options.



DrvLikHell said:


> I would love to try specific recommendations, but it's not likely that I'll be able to find them at a local store. My best option to try different saddles is to order them from Amazon and make sure they have the option for free returns. To complicate things I'm on a tight budget.


Understood!



DrvLikHell said:


> And lastly, I'm scarred on my left leg and I don't wear shorts, so they're not an option. I always wear pants, which is why wearing padded bicycle shorts underneath isn't an option either. I'm hot enough as it is.


Frankly you are out riding so you get nothing but respect from me. I wouldn't give a damn about scars. If you must cover them could you wear a cotton sleeve on your leg? Long pants would SUCK in the florida heat and humidity. You're a tough guy!

Honestly the vertical bar ends are 300% more embarrassing than any scars.



DrvLikHell said:


> Hopefully I'll find something this Saturday when I go shopping again. Otherwise I'll order a couple from Amazon and see what happens.
> 
> I really appreciate all the input.


Dude. You kick serious ass to be out riding. Keep it up, being out riding is crazy good for your health and worldview. Hopefully my advice helps. Let us know what you find.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Check out a shop with an "assometer". I had all kinds of back / hip problems previously. Measured my sit bones and found out I'm off the scale (170+). I'm not obese- 6'1 205lb. Ended up with a specialized "power" saddle. They're marketed for their road bikes but I have almost a year on them on my mtb. They offer it in 168mm.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

This post from Bike Touring News explains a lot about saddle-fit. They are friends of mine.

Saddle Comfort and Bike Touring

Scroll to see different methods of measuring sit bones. Remember that the a$$ 0 meter measures the center to center distance, but you actually need the outside to outside distance. Most people with a certain center to center will have a corresponding, expected, outside distance. But not everyone. My center to center is 118 mm, and my outside is 160. That's unexpectedly wide. If I go to a Specialized Store, they try to put me on a 143 mm, which is too narrow. I've used 155 mm Specialized road saddles since 2010. Some people will have unexpectedly narrow outside distances, too. It's just easier to measure the center to center in a store, in public, than it is to get super accurate.


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## DrvLikHell (Aug 9, 2016)

Since my poor beloved Memoflex is now broken in three places and is thus probably a ball busting grenade waiting to happen, I switched back to the WTB Speed V (aka Ass Hammer). I took the opportunity to measure and readjust according to recommended positioning methods.

First up, saddle forward/aft positioning. I had my Memoflex as far back as it would go, and it turns out that was about right. I started the WTB in the middle of it's rails but my knee cap was too far forward of the pedal with the crank horizontal. I moved the WTB just about as far back as it will go and the front of my knee cap lines up precisely with the front edge of my pedal according to my level. This is still too far forward according to the Kops method outlined in the YouTube video linked above, but I've run out of space on the saddle rails. It feels pretty good as far as positioning (not ass friendliness), so I'll see how it is on the trail tomorrow. I also leveled the WTB flat.

For saddle height, I raised the post almost two inches, but the Memoflex is considerably taller than the WTB so I might have ended up only slightly higher than before. My leg is slightly bent on the down stroke and it feels comfortable. The method in the video says your leg should be straight locked with your heel on the pedal at full stroke and according to that I could use a little more saddle height. But again, it feels good as it sits so I'll see how it is tomorrow. I ride with a full tool kit so I can raise or lower it as needed.

The frame fit isn't all that bad after I switched to the Answer 2" riser bars last week. It feels very much better this way. I did tons of research into how to get my bars up and forward farther. The only way is with a stem and/or riser bars. I can't get much farther forward with a stem because mine is already 105mm with a 7 degree rise. If I got a longer stem with a higher rise it could actually end up with a shorter reach, or stay the same. I found a nifty stem comparison tool here. If I went with a longer stem with the same 7 degree rise it would just give me more reach with only a few millimeters more height. With the 2" riser bars tilted slightly forward I get more reach and rise. Sure, I could have gotten both a new stem and new bars, but I'm on a tight budget (ie: broke).

Yea, I have loads of standover clearance. Very nice knowing I'm never going to squash my marbles with this bike. I thought about looking for another bike that fits, but I don't want to go to a hard tail, and I could never ever go back to a rigid. I rode a rigid for decades and suspension is so much better. I love being able to bomb through all kinds of stuff that I'd have to tippy-toe through on a rigid, or get my teeth rattled trying to bomb through it anyways, and probably bend a wheel too.

I know, I know, I'm in the saddle too much. I need to get up and crank more when I'm on the trails. Riding with this WTB Ass Hammer saddle will make me do that. I can ride without sitting down with no problem, I just choose to sit because it conserves energy and that's how I used to manage 60 to 80 mile rides back when I rode a lot. I did that for years and it became a habit. I sit and spin a fast cadence where other people stand up and pump hard.

I should probably also mention that while I'm just getting back into biking, I'm not a beginner. My previous bike, an ancient rigid Pine River, has over 10,000 miles on it. I'm not sure exactly how many miles because it had 9,800 on it when the first battery in my speedometer died. I was riding around 300 to 400 miles a month then. I replaced the battery and continued to put more miles on it after that. When I stopped riding, the battery died while in storage and I don't remember how many miles it had with the second battery. Now it's on it's third battery and it's been migrated over to the VRX. Most of those miles have been on the street, but I've ridden in the Rockies, the Smokies, and on Evia while on different vacations with my bike.

Today I went to one of the best bike stores in town, but they still didn't have any saddle measurement devices like an assometer, and no demo saddles and no offer to take some home to try them out. They did have a ton of saddles though. They even had one that's just like my Memoflex with the web spring. However, the guy at the store said that it would probably break just like my Memoflex did because it's not meant for the impacts encountered while trail riding. After inspecting both saddles I'm sure he's right. Now I have to rethink my strategy completely. Dammit man!

It's not that our bike stores are shitty, there's just no, or very little demand for the things that mountain bikers need. If you want a commuter, beach cruiser, or even a half decent road bike, there's much more support for that. And there are plenty of good bike mechanics around.

Now on to the measurements!
I followed the instructions on Biketouringnews.com to measure my sit bones. I used the flour-in-a-ziplock-bag method and I got some numbers to look at. I measured at least six times just to make sure I was getting good measurements. A couple times one side came out too shallow so I had to start over. Out of the good impressions, twice I got 4.75 inches center to center, and twice I got 5 inches center to center. If center to center is from the deepest spots then it's 4.75. but if center to center is literally from the center of each depression, then it's 5. And the outside to outside always came up 7.5. So in metric that's 120-127 center to center and 190 outside to outside. I didn't have 2 inches of flour like they recommended though, only 1.5, cuz that's all the flour I had. But I did use a 1 gallon ziplock bag and it didn't go through to the bottom or anything so I think the measurements are alright.

Streetdoctor: I guess that means I fall into the "off the scale" category? That would explain why so many saddles cause pain. This is very good information to have.

Now, the first thing the guy at this latest bike shop recommended was padded shorts. I'm surprised he did, he's the first guy at a shop to mention it, but still, not an option. Embarrassment isn't why I wear pants. I fall solidly in the "No F*cks Given" class of Hoonigans. That's why I keep my bar ends where I like them even though other people probably think they're absurd. I even have little padded doofers on the tips for when I put my hands there. It looks ridiculous, but I don't care, I like it that way. You can see them in the picture I took of my bike tonight with the WTB Ass Hammer in place. People probably think the rear fender is stupid too. I don't care. It has a purpose, it stays.

The reason I wear pants is because when people see my leg they usually ask about it. Some people go "What the hell is that?" Others innocently inquire about it because they're curious. However, they're effectively asking "Hey dude, tell me about that time you made a bad decision that f*cked up your life and caused seriously negative repercussions for people you care about." Even if I give them a short answer that doesn't satisfy their curiosity, it's still another person reminding me about it. I don't need a public reminder. I'm reminded every time I put a sock on, or take a shower, or change clothes, or rest my leg against something firm. It's not their fault, people are curious, but there's no positive outcome after they ask the question, for me or for them. If I tell the story, then they wish they hadn't asked. If I give a short non-answer, it comes out harsh and I'm an a$$hole. So I wear pants, they don't ask, and everybody has a better day.

Oh yeah, about the toe touching dirt thing. I have a habit of coming to a stop and just hovering, not getting off the saddle and not putting either foot down. But if/when I finally loose balance, there's usually no coming off the saddle, a foot has gotta go down. On pavement it's no problem to have just a toe touch, but on dirt I prefer to have a little more grip than that so I don't go sliding unexpectedly. I suppose I could not do that, but where's the fun that? Otherwise I always start and stop on the pedals, not the saddle.

Here's the latest iteration of the VRX. I still have to put the saddle bag back on:


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## DrvLikHell (Aug 9, 2016)

Holy keystrokes Batman, I didn't intend to write a book. I guess that's what 90wpm gets you when you're bored and have nothing else to do on a Thursday night. I'll try to condense next time.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

Not only is it long but its a well structured essay and a good read. Oh, didn't notice the doofers on the Barends! Hideous!

I still think you can use more rise for your bars. As an experiment you could install a stem riser. They're $12-15 on amazon.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

Okay, I'm going to provide a list of possibles based on your needs plus measurements. Wherever you get a saddle, make sure they have a good return policy. It's hard to find a performance saddle, which you need, at those measurements, but here are the closest I know of. (Though some are 'comfort' saddles, but they can be justified, too).

Specialized cup. Springs. Width is over 200 mm. Price is low. It may or may not hold up. But if you like it and it's reasonable, you can just buy another when it wears out.

Terry Men's Cite Gel. Width 173. Price $50.00. This could work for you. Will probably hold up better than a cruiser saddle. Terry makes quality products. Not really considered an 'all day' saddle.

Terry Men's Cite Y Gel Bike Saddle | Terry Bicycles

Terry Liberator Y (mens). Might be a little more sporty than the Cite. There are a few other versions, too. Width is 173 mm. Price $62.00.

Terry Men's Liberator Y Bike Saddle | Terry Bicycles

Terry Liberator X. Width 163. Price, 79 or 60ish, depending if you grab the version that is on sale. A little more sporty than the mens version. I do know of women with 190 mm sitbones on this saddle, but they ride road bikes, so hard to say how that will work sitting fully upright, but you could try it.

Terry Women's Liberator X Gel Bike Saddle | Terry Bicycles

Brooks B-67 (aged leather). Not the S or short version, that causes issues unless you are, say under 5'3" or so. The width is 205, which should give you just enough room to avoid sitting on the metal cantle plate beneath, which you don't want to do. Good stores have a 6 month return policy on leather saddles like this one.

Brooks B67|City/Touring Saddle|Leather Saddle

My top choice on this page is the top center, Women's body comfort gel. 200 mm. 40.00. If you have a saddle that is wide enough, I think you'll find you don't need quite as much excess padding. This is definitely padded, but not compared to some. I'd probably try this one first if all the saddles I list, if I were you. (Note it comes in either 200 or 180 mm widths). If that one didn't work, maybe the Cup.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/women/saddles/womens-body-geometry-comfort-gel/117481

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/women/saddles/fitness

Men's page of similar saddles. Specialized is very unisex in their saddles. Look for the most streamlines, but proper width you can find.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/men/saddles/fitness

I wouldn't worry too much about the fact that they may not last, better to replace more often, IMHO, than to sit on something that feels like a 2 X 4.

Edit: adding more as I find them.

WTB width 172. Price 40:

Comfort | WTB

Bontrager Nebulous Plus womens. Available in size up to 180 mm. That looks like a strong possibility. There is a mens version that is slightly more narrow. For its width, looks like the highest 'performing' saddle I've found. $75.00

Bontrager Nebula Plus Women's | Trek Bikes

Page with Trek saddles in the correct size range.

Bike saddles | Trek Bikes

Width 164-175. May also work. I like the Yatra. Looks like a nice, low friction saddle for mountain biking.

Bike saddles | Trek Bikes

I'll reiterate, most people do not do better on a squishy saddle, but it's important that a saddle be wide enough. Don't be afraid of trying more minimal designs. They tend to be more comfortable.

Now. Bike shorts. They prevent chafing. Not really supposed to add padding. You can find some well-vented liner shorts to wear beneath some breathable baggie shorts, or maybe shorter pants. Whatever length you want. I live near Savannah, GA. Totally get the heat and humidity, but it can be done.

I missed the Specialized Dolce. 175 mm. $50.00. Another contender in performance category. Ah, and it says: Level 4 padding: Ideal for fitness and commuting without the need for chamois padding.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/women/saddles/womens-dolce-gel/117436

And the Milano. Similar to the Dolce in size and function. And price. Biggest difference is the channel shape in the rear. The Milano is about 20 grams lighter. Doesn't list length, often, women's will be a little shorter.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/men/saddles/milano-gel/117457


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## DrvLikHell (Aug 9, 2016)

I looked at stem risers but I don't feel it would be safe except maybe just for cruising around the neighborhood. On the trail my bars are now at a good height. I only grab my doofers when I'm cruising on a long street ride and I want to sit upright instead of bent over. I would just ride with no hands, but this bike doesn't seem to want to do that. I don't know if it's because of the flex of the suspension, the light wheels or if I'm just not fully acclimated to the bike yet.

Muirenn: Wow, thanks a ton for that list of wide ass saddles. I really like a few of them, especially the Comfort Gel by Specialized. I also like the Bontrager Nebulous, and I found a Serfas E-Gel that might work. It's really good to have a measurement to go by. Now I just have to find a place that sells some of these and has a good return policy. A lot of them are on amazon but not with free returns so I'll have to keep looking. Also, I completely agree that it would be better to replace a saddle more often than endure pain every time I ride. 

I went to a couple more bike stores in town and another Trek store did have an assometer, but it didn't give measurements, it just gave colors. Apparently my back side is blue. The salesman didn't know anything about how to use it but the mechanic said something about 165. I inquired about the return policy there and they said they have a 90 day exchange policy. After you buy one you have 90 days to bring it back and exchange it for another one. Exchange, not return though. That's good, but what if I try all their saddles and none of them work for me, then I'm stuck choosing which ever one was the least bad.


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## Muirenn (Jun 17, 2013)

I think Specialized has a decent return policy. You should check their website. Also Trek (Bontrager), and maybe Terry.

165 was probably the closest that would work. Definitely need good measurements. Hate to say it, but the majority of sales guys, and even a lot of fitters, don't really understand how to determine accurate saddle width. You could test ride a bike with a 165 mm saddle, just to see what happens. You need to determine the correct width range. And make sure your numbers are right. I know 143 is much too narrow for my outside distance of 160, but 155 is perfect. With Specialized minimal saddles like the Romain and the Toupe. When I sit more upright, I want something wider. But some people use a different range. And it's not completely certain something about posture didn't affect the numbers you got. (Doesn't mean they were wrong, but it's good to try things that may be off, so you learn the specifics of what works for you, and what causes issues).


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## Bikin' Bric (Sep 7, 2003)

I've gone through many different saddles and finally went through with getting a saddle fitment and paying the price for a Specialized Power saddle on my CX bike. The fit was excellent and I liked it so much I bought a Phenom for my mountain bike. I highly recommend them and will be buying my 3rd Specialized saddle soon for my fat bike.

Link to a review on my Blog for those interested:
Gear Review: Specialized Power Saddle - Bikin' Bric's Bike Blog


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## Tavic (Apr 25, 2016)

Being 6'8" at 280lbs, I definitely appreciate this thread for finding a proper Saddle. It would definitely be a great "stickie post" since it's a common Clyde issue.

I'm also coming back from a 10yr hiatus as well and am going the fatbike direction. I've been through 3 saddles so far before finding this thread and will definitely use the recommended approaches to find a more fitting Saddle and looking in to padded shorts.

As a contribution, I did see alot of concern regarding suspension saddles not being able to handle offroad abuse. In my search, I decided to try out a suspension seat post and have been able to eek out 10 miles or so before resorting to single-cheek-riding.

I did go with a less expensive pavement type to start with since it was an experiment and have had pretty good results. Once I get a better Saddle and padded shorts, I might look in to higher end seatposts.

http://georgegarnercyclery.com/m/product/trek-pavement-suspension-seatpost-258917-1.htm

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## MozFat (Dec 16, 2016)

+1 for Specialized saddles. They seem to have it worked out. I ended up on a 143mm Avatar, even though it was available 155mm, after getting measured on their ass-o-meter. I had been convinced I needed bigger.
It has firmish gel foam and has done me no undue harm on 4+ hour rides. Whereas the stock seat on my new bike was 3 days unable to sit properly after an hour or so similar to the OP.
I had to shop whilst travelling as there is no shop with stock available locally, so also bought a 155mm Fabric Cell, just in case the fitting was off. It also was pretty good. The Cell might be worth a look as the whole seat is a big air bag, somewhat akin to Nike running shoes. I feels very soft to press with your fingers, but spreads the load pretty when seated. Maybe a good fit for your pointy sitbones. Neither are overly expensive.


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## vernondozier (Aug 31, 2011)

Serfas RX lycra.......been through dozen seats, for me this is perfecto, have three of them...

https://www.serfas.com/shop/products/saddles/rx-921l-mens-roadmtb-comfort/


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