# Companies that actually make their own frames



## SecondSkin (Oct 17, 2005)

Seems like this topic comes up quite a bit. I thought it would be worth making a list of those bike/frame builders that still actually make/weld their own DH/FR frames in their own plants (as opposed to those that only design the bikes and outsource the production). Please feel free to add those that you know about for sure.

Build their own frames in house:

Cannondale
Sinister
Ellsworth (most models)
Rocky Mountain (maybe?)
Cortina
Brooklyn Machine Works
Foes
Intense
Titus
Ventana

Outsource their frame production, either off-shore or domestic:

Santa Cruz
Transition
Versus
Kona
Banshee
Canfield (?)
Turner
Specialized
Azonic

Note: this is not a value judgement on the above companies. I leave that to your own decision-making process. The list is to help clarify who does what.


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## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

Cortina
Brooklyn Machine Works
Foes
Intense
Titus (not sure if they still do)????


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## Roaming Oregon (Feb 24, 2004)

SecondSkin said:


> Seems like this topic comes up quite a bit. I thought it would be worth making a list of those bike/frame builders that still actually make/weld their own DH/FR frames in their own plants (as opposed to those that only design the bikes and outsource the production). Please feel free to add those that you know about for sure.
> 
> Build their own frames in house:
> 
> ...


Cross Ellsworth and Rocky (some in house- some elseware) off that list, within a year you could probably knock c-dale off it too (the carbon road bike they are making is done across the pond- so in time they will move production (speculation.)

Many people may not realize to call it "Made in the USA" you only need to paint it and hang the parts on it here in the States. I'm not sure how that works in Canada for Rocky- but whatever.


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## konabiker (Jan 19, 2004)

SecondSkin said:


> Seems like this topic comes up quite a bit. I thought it would be worth making a list of those bike/frame builders that still actually make/weld their own DH/FR frames in their own plants (as opposed to those that only design the bikes and outsource the production). Please feel free to add those that you know about for sure.
> 
> Build their own frames in house:
> 
> ...


Cornfield is made in Bing-Bong land.

Cortina is basically made in a garage a few miles from my house in Santa Barbara, CA.


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## toyota kawasaki (Apr 7, 2005)

Banshee?


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## FoShizzle (Jan 18, 2004)

Can't forget Sherwood!


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

Roaming Oregon said:


> Many people may not realize to call it "Made in the USA" you only need to paint it and hang the parts on it here in the States. I'm not sure how that works in Canada for Rocky- but whatever.


So true, look at HD assembled in USA with alot of asian components.


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## SecondSkin (Oct 17, 2005)

Roaming Oregon said:


> Cross Ellsworth and Rocky (some in house- some elseware) off that list, within a year you could probably knock c-dale off it too (the carbon road bike they are making is done across the pond- so in time they will move production (speculation.)
> 
> Many people may not realize to call it "Made in the USA" you only need to paint it and hang the parts on it here in the States. I'm not sure how that works in Canada for Rocky- but whatever.


Basically, all carbon bikes are made overseas (mostly in China). To include carbon bikes in that list would knock off every company that makes carbon bikes. Also, this was a list for DH/FR bikes. I don't know of any carbon DH/FR bikes. So Cannondale still stands, as all their aluminum frames are still built in their own plant. Ellsworth was having some frames built at Kinesis (Isis/Joker), but now that they have discontinued those models I don't know that they are outsourcing. Their current ads say they are building all their frames at their new plant.


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## americanethics (Dec 1, 2005)

toyota kawasaki said:


> Banshee?


made across the pond.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

specialized, azonic...asia


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## gregz12 (Oct 9, 2004)

Take Turner off the list. They out source their frames. It's all done in the US but not at Turner.


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## PblcNme (Dec 11, 2005)

cannondale simply rules!!


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## SecondSkin (Oct 17, 2005)

gregz12 said:


> Take Turner off the list. They out source their frames. It's all done in the US but not at Turner.


Yep, you're right. Another one done at Kinesis.


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## funkenstein (Jan 19, 2004)

*Trek/Fisher*

I'll add all Trek and Fisher DH and FR bikes to the list of Made in USA, by Trek in Wisconsin


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

Clifcat
24 Cycles, I think


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## MarzocchiFork (Jan 5, 2005)

Yeti Cycles...


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## JBsoxB (May 18, 2004)

Nemesis Project i think is coming out with an FR frame. not sure though.


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## sortafast (Feb 12, 2004)

I think i have seen some brooklyn park bikes come out of kinesis, could be wrong though. Tonic fab is made here in portland, by the 3 (or so) guys that run it. I gues you could say mountain cycle isnt out sourced as it is owned and built by kinesis. Although kinesis is a international company and they have a lot of production over seas. Evil bikes are outsourced, I think to Devinci in the great white north. Calfee, aegis, and parlee all make carbon road frames in the states, but they are mostly custom and uber $$$$.


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## JBsoxB (May 18, 2004)

Evil4bc said:


> *Trek ... made in wisconsin* , but you may want to check country of origin for some frame pieces , not 100% sure though . Some of their lower priced bikes and frames are produced oversea's


i have a hard time beleiving that, but if it's true, wow!


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

JBsoxB said:


> Nemesis Project i think is coming out with an FR frame. not sure though.


YES we are ! All our frames are made here in the U.S.A !
I was just in the shop messing around with some little pieces for the swinarm !

Bikes I know to be made in the U.S.

SINISTER .. 100% Vermont made , FTW is the man end of story !

Intense .. makes everything in their so-cal facility including their cable guides !

Ventana ... made 15min from my shop by Sherwood Gibson , awsome bikes ! Great Welds !!! Sherwood is a good guy also !!

Cortina ... Ardian is a awsome guy and makes amazing bikes !!

CliffCat .. Handmade in Upstate NY

Titus ... made in AZ ? not 100% sure

Trek ... made in wisconsin , but you may want to check country of origin for some frame pieces , not 100% sure though . Some of their lower priced bikes and frames are produced oversea's

Cannondale .. Made in the U.S.A.

Turners are made at Ano Inc. in Portland

Last I herd Brooklyns were getting welded at Kinesis

Yeti makes the ASR and 4X frames in house , all others are outsourced I believe ??

24 cycles ... are made by bettle nut chewers in Twan


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

JBsoxB said:


> i have a hard time beleiving that, but if it's true, wow!


Ok from what I can figure out they make the Session , Fule and Remedy frames in house in Wisconsin .
They have one of if not the biggest bicycle production facility in the U.S.A.
Going so far as to even minipulate and form tube sets and produce all the OCLV products in house !
I have herd some crazy stories of the engineers e-mailing CAD files directly to the CNC machines from France durning the tour to make custom clamshell molds for custom one-off OCLV carbon bikes for Lance ! If you knew all the process involved in something like this it would turn your brian to mush ! and suposedly they produced a custom full carbon tubed and luged OCLV climbing frame for Lance in 3 days from France durning the second tour he won .


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

Make their own:

Giant
Orange
Kenesis/Mountain Cycle
Knolly


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## fred.r (Sep 8, 2005)

Scandal Bikes - I think he makes them him self in his car shop, for him. So I don't know if it counts.


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## knollybikes.com (Jan 8, 2004)

*Thanks!*



shiggy said:


> Make their own:
> 
> Giant
> Orange
> ...


Thanks for mentioning us Shiggy!

Just to clarify:

We make the V-tach and the Free Radical 100% in Vancouver, BC Canada

We have outsourced _part_ of the Delirium T production to our American friends at Sapa in Portland Oregon, while about 50% is still made in Vancouver. This was done simply because our manufacturing capabilities are quite limited and we would not be able to make the Delirium T in house without significant delivery delays. We are working very hard with Sapa to ensure that they meet our exacting standards, including increasing their standard tolerances to match ours and adding extra quality control stages. These guys really, really know their stuff (they make frames for some of the top US bike frame companies).

So, I guess we're a "multi-national" company now!



Oh ya - just for the record, Kenesis USA closed up shop a couple of months ago, though the over seas divisions are still in business.


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## DanD (Jan 15, 2004)

shiggy said:


> Make their own:
> 
> Giant
> Orange
> ...


 Giant is Taiwaneese


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

knollybikes.com said:


> Thanks for mentioning us Shiggy!
> 
> Just to clarify:
> 
> ...


Wasent 100% sure , so I didnt want to comment

For the record I have had prototypes made at SAPA and their capabilities are endlesss .
They will be our choice for the production full sup Nemesis Project frames ... someday!

SAPA's quaility is very good but sounds like Noel whipped em into shape !
Looks like things at can only get better , I cant wait to see the production KNOLLY bikes there building , they should be pure museam pieces !  
Best of luck with thoes awsome machines Nole !!


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

DanD said:


> Giant is Taiwaneese


 Yeah but as the thread title goes they *make their frames on their own* same as Merida second biggest bike manufacturer. oh and Trek is made by Giant factories, sorry...


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## MTBsSd (Jan 12, 2004)

I think Marin is all homemade... not 100% sure where everything comes from though


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## sittingduck (Apr 26, 2005)

Tonic 
Made in the Northwest!!
http://www.tonicfab.com/home.htm


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## funkenstein (Jan 19, 2004)

goRz said:


> oh and Trek is made by Giant factories, sorry...


*not*. Sessions, Remedy (Liquid), Fuel as well as King Fisher, Fat Possum, Cake, etc

_*All * _  of their suspension bikes except for the entry level aluminum Fuel are made by Trek in Wisconsin.


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## Mr Bread (Apr 6, 2005)

Mountain Cycle???


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

funkenstein said:


> *not*. Sessions, Remedy (Liquid), Fuel as well as King Fisher, Fat Possum, Cake, etc
> 
> _*All * _  of their suspension bikes except for the entry level aluminum Fuel are made by Trek in Wisconsin.


Don't know about this FS issue, but carbon fs frames are made by giant for sure...


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## funkenstein (Jan 19, 2004)

goRz said:


> Don't know about this FS issue, but carbon fs frames are made by giant for sure...


NO they are NOT! obviously you have no idea, so why would you say that? the only carbon Trek made in Taiwan is the new 5000 TCT (Trek Composite Technology) All OCLV frames are made at Trek in Wisconsin.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

goRz said:


> Don't know about this FS issue, but carbon fs frames are made by giant for sure...


You are flat out wrong ! Back to school for you , need to do your homework !!

OCLV is TREK's propritary carbon technology and they make it 100% in house .
If you don't believe us go to Trek's website and look at the factory tour pics !
OR bother to read my post above ??

Some of the cheeper aluminum Trek fullsup bikes like the Alpha Aluminum might be made in Taiwan .


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## funkenstein (Jan 19, 2004)

*question?*



Evil4bc said:


> You are flat out wrong ! Back to school for you , need to do your homework !!
> 
> OCLV is TREK's propritary carbon technology and they make it 100% in house .
> If you don't believe us go to Trek's website and look at the factory tour pics !
> ...


why do people post so much false information on this site? I mean, obviously this guy has no idea what he is talking about, but is still insistent that Giant makes Treks carbon frames. It's not ture, do people make this stuff up? I am confused. I read post after post on here where people are just flat out wrong and seem oblivious to it. peeps, take what you read on mtbr with a grain of salt. there is some good info here, and a lot of bad info too. I believe maybe 50% of what I read here.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

DanD said:


> Giant is Taiwaneese


True, they are a Taiwan company that designs, manufactures and markets bikes under their own name. They own the factories and make frames for many other companies as well.

I combined Kinesis and Mountain Cycle on my list because Kinesis (a Taiwan company) owns the Mountain Cycle brand. They own and operate factories in (at least) Taiwan and Portland OR so at whichever location the frame are produced, they are still made in-house.

For that matter, any Specialized frame made in a Merida factory could be argued to be made "in-house." Merida owns ~49% of Specialized.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

funkenstein said:


> why do people post so much false information on this site? I mean, obviously this guy has no idea what he is talking about, but is still insistent that Giant makes Treks carbon frames. It's not ture, do people make this stuff up? I am confused. I read post after post on here where people are just flat out wrong and seem oblivious to it. peeps, take what you read on mtbr with a grain of salt. there is some good info here, and a lot of bad info too. I believe maybe 50% of what I read here.


YES it's flat out retarded !

I still can't get over how much bad information people seem to cling to as if their life depended on it.

From what i know 89% of all the carbon bikes on the market now come from one factory.... Martek !
Martek is one of if not the worlds largest builder and supplier of pre made carbon structures . This includes over 200 frames per day from their Chinese factory .
their client list includes

KUOTA
STORK
SPECIALIZED
ORBEA
ARGON-18
FELT
FSA = carbon components 
KESTRAL
and their largest client is TREK

Now this being said companies like TREK can order pre made carbon components such as formed seat and chain-stay sections , lugs and tube sets they then take these pre made components and assemble them here in the U.S. finish IE: paint the frames in house in Wisconsin and this is technically a made in the U.S.A. product .

What people dont realize is the manufacturing infrastructure on our planet is moving from a national economy to a global economy this in turn makes it easier for us westerners to design products and have these produced overseas to the highest quality at a affordable rate , so we can still turn a profit and make a very high quality product available to customers at an affordable rate .
This in turn help both the U.S. economy but the Taiwan and Chinese economy as well as giving people in what was once a 3rd world nation a stable job wear they are treated fairly . So much so that the Chinese Government turns off the power to the major factories in China for 1 day each week , to give the employees a government sanctioned day off , well these employees are treated so well that they decline to take this day off and the factories turn on giant Rolls Royce generators to keep production going !
these employees also live on the grounds of Martek's Chinese Factory !

Something like this will NEVER happen in the U.S.A.


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## goRz (May 11, 2005)

> why do people post so much false information on this site? I mean, obviously this guy has no idea what he is talking about, but is still insistent that Giant makes Treks carbon frames. It's not ture, do people make this stuff up? I am confused. I read post after post on here where people are just flat out wrong and seem oblivious to it. peeps, take what you read on mtbr with a grain of salt. there is some good info here, and a lot of bad info too. I believe maybe 50% of what I read here.


Ok, guy

firstly, i wouldn't call my post persistant.

Secondly, this is what I was basing at:

http://news.cens.com/php/getnews.php?file=/news/2005/07/26/20050726015.htm&daily=1

(look at the table)

thirdly,


> You are flat out wrong ! Back to school for you , need to do your homework !!
> 
> OCLV is TREK's propritary carbon technology and they make it 100% in house .
> If you don't believe us go to Trek's website and look at the factory tour pics !
> ...


*Evil4bc*, how can you know if I read your post? Apart from that, most of lower level trek frames, if not all of them are (not might be) made by Giant....

Finally, OCLV - ok my mistake, these're made in US...

The fact that you don't know me, does not mean, I don;t know nothing so try to be little less condescending, please....


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## DanD (Jan 15, 2004)

shiggy said:


> True, they are a Taiwan company that designs, manufactures and markets bikes under their own name. They own the factories and make frames for many other companies as well.
> 
> I combined Kinesis and Mountain Cycle on my list because Kinesis (a Taiwan company) owns the Mountain Cycle brand. They own and operate factories in (at least) Taiwan and Portland OR so at whichever location the frame are produced, they are still made in-house.
> 
> For that matter, any Specialized frame made in a Merida factory could be argued to be made "in-house." Merida owns ~49% of Specialized.


 Oh I see now, thanks.


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## Ridin'Dirty (Jun 4, 2004)

*Titus*

Someone clarify please: I have a 2006 Racer X 100 and was told that the frame was made in the USA. I know some of the Motolites aren't but is the RX made across the pond as well?

That being said it is a bad as$ bike (as nice as my brother's Ventana) so I don't care if it was welded by a pygmy in the Congo. I just hear so much conflicting information.

I don't understand the debate though (in terms of build quality). I know that wasn't the original poster's intent. *The bike speaks for itself !! * I would rather have awesome bike from Tawain vs. an average over-priced bike from the States any day. People that are putting too much stock in this need to be b 1 tch smacked.


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## scabrider (Oct 3, 2004)

cortinas are made in a garage, 20'x15'. i think intense makes some of their bikes in house in temecula...


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## knollybikes.com (Jan 8, 2004)

Evil4bc said:


> Wasent 100% sure , so I didnt want to comment
> 
> For the record I have had prototypes made at SAPA and their capabilities are endlesss .
> They will be our choice for the production full sup Nemesis Project frames ... someday!
> ...


Ha ha - Thanks Brad!

I don't know if I would say "whip Sapa into shape!". Those guys really, really know what they're doing. I mean, look at the bike brands they make. It's more about ensuring that they're comfortable building what we want (with all of our products manufacturing idiosyncrasies) as well as ensuring that we get what we want in terms of consistent quality of the product. When we build in house (like the V-tach frames), I'm personally able to oversee each and every step of the manufacturing process. When some of the manufacturing goes to Sapa, I have to trust that they will provide what I want. So, there is some "feeling out" that has to go on 

At the same time, we're able to learn about what they do and they can perhaps learn from us as well. The other thing that's nice is that their engineering capabilities are top notch: we can communicate totally transparently in terms of frame designs, solid models, etc... We have full solid modeling / FEA in house and they have full solid modeling, so it makes our designs and their designs super easy to compare.

Any, they are very very good to work with.

Ya, I'm excited too! The latest revision prototype Delirium T frames should be arriving over the next couple of weeks - then it's into full production so that we can have them ready to ship for the end of April. There have been some slight changes engineering wise since the prototype shown at Interbike that are really going to help dial this frame in, as well as some cool manufacturing stuff such as a new one piece custom formed seat tube (which will get carried over to our other models eventually) and some nice net-extruded parts.

Cheers!


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## DaveX (Feb 10, 2004)

jsnk1975 said:


> Someone clarify please: I have a 2006 Racer X 100 and was told that the frame was made in the USA. I know some of the Motolites aren't but is the RX made across the pond as well?


Your bike was made in Arizona in a building that says Titus on it.

Where Titus makes it's various frames...

Bicycles made in the Tempe Arizona:

Racer-X
Racer-X Ti (custom)
Racer-X Ti Exogrid (custom)
Racer-X 29er (custom)
Moto-Lite Ti (custom)
MotoLite Ti exogrid (custom)
Eleven
FCR-mountain (custom)
FCR-Road (custom)
FCR -Exogrid (custom)
FCR-Isogrid (custom)
Solera
Ligero

Bicycles built overseas:

Motolite Aluminum
Supermoto
Modena


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

knollybikes.com said:


> ...Oh ya - just for the record, Kenesis USA closed up shop a couple of months ago, though the over seas divisions are still in business.


I had not heard that. Do you still have a prototype/R&D shop for MC?


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

goRz said:


> ...
> 
> Secondly, this is what I was basing at:
> 
> ...


I wonder if carbon tubes for the stays of rear triangles and carbon forks are included in these numbers even if the frame/bike was mainly built elsewhere or of other materials.


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## Roaming Oregon (Feb 24, 2004)

Evil4bc said:


> You are flat out wrong ! Back to school for you , need to do your homework !!
> 
> OCLV is TREK's propritary carbon technology and they make it 100% in house .
> If you don't believe us go to Trek's website and look at the factory tour pics !
> ...


Actually you both are right and wrong...

OCLV is Trek's Process. They buy tubes to their specifications and finish the frames in their factory.

I have no idea where they get the "tubsets" from but they don't weave them in their factory, and Giant has no part of it.


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## dandurston (Jan 20, 2005)

All of Rocky Mtns high end frame are hand built by them in Vancouver. This includes the Switch, RMX, Slayer, ETSX etc. I'm believe their lower end stuff is outsourced and I'm not sure about the midrange stuff (ie. Flow, Element etc) but I think the Flow is made in house. You can put Rocky Mtn. down as a Yes if you only considered their DH/FR stuff.


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## finchy (Jan 21, 2004)

rocky mountain bikes are made completely in Bc by rock mountain... even teh wheels u get from them on the bike are built by them which is why rocky bikes are such good quality!


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## funkenstein (Jan 19, 2004)

*Hexcel*



Roaming Oregon said:


> Actually you both are right and wrong...
> 
> OCLV is Trek's Process. They buy tubes to their specifications and finish the frames in their factory.
> 
> I have no idea where they get the "tubsets" from but they don't weave them in their factory, and Giant has no part of it.


Trek gets their "round tubes" from Hexcel, and US company. the "lugs" are made in Waterloo. anything that says OCLV on it is made in Waterloo

goRz, sorry, didn't mean to sound condecending. just a lot of misinformation on this site lately. especially regarding "the big bad Trek"


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## turnerbikes (Apr 12, 2004)

*Pretzel*

FWIW, Knolly is right about the Kinesis plant shutting down in Portland. The have not made other brands there is a long time. Their house brand, Mountain Cycle was the last to be made there. All of the Turner bikes have been made exclusively by SAPA in Portland for years. They do great work, and going to lunch is never an adventure in strange food. I am really set on keeping Turner a US made product, but what do you guys actually think? Does it matter if I have it built in the congo at the same factory as Titus by pygmies? As long as it handles like a Turner and it backed by our service? What really matters to you guys that are spending your hard earned money on a new frame? It must mean something to some of you or this subject would not be as heated, or there be so much mis information and slight of hand in some cases of "which models" built where. 
You can contact me directly if you want, [email protected] or post it here.

David Turner


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## Fooly_CoolyOo (Jan 25, 2005)

*and the winner is.....*



Evil4bc said:


> YES it's flat out retarded !
> 
> I still can't get over how much bad information people seem to cling to as if their life depended on it.
> 
> ...


And thats a great place to bring up this little fact. Most of the frame materials that are used for bikes come from overseas. Were do you think cannondale gets its aluminum? Taiwan. Just a little tibbit of info for ya.


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## deoreo (Aug 26, 2005)

This thread has really got me wondering, why people think it is such a good thing to have a bike built "in house" in the USA? I don't understand why people bash Giant, and other high end Tiawanese bicycle makers, but think bikes made be Kinesis, Anodizing Inc., and SAPA are just dandy, because they are built in the states.

Giant is the worlds largest quality bicycle manufacturer - Merida is not far behind.
Kinesis, Anodizing Inc., SAPA and others are primarily based in Taiwan, and China,
their branches in the states are small in comparison.

If people are basing their argument only on the fact that US citizens are making the products, and have jobs etc, etc... then I understand. But from a quality standpoint, I believe the best is coming from Taiwan, and the US branches are trying to MATCH it.

I have to wonder if, for example, the frames made for SantaCruz by Kinesis (I believe)
in the US branch are only made there for marketing reasons?

I'm no industry expert, by any stretch of the imagination, but it makes you wonder.


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

Roaming Oregon said:


> Actually you both are right and wrong...
> 
> OCLV is Trek's Process. They buy tubes to their specifications and finish the frames in their factory.
> 
> I have no idea where they get the "tubsets" from but they don't weave them in their factory, and Giant has no part of it.


Please see my other post above !
They source the raw formed carbon tubes from Martek in China .
Some of the propritart OCLV structures are still made in house in Wisconsin , and all frames are glued , assembled , aligned and finished in Waterloo Wisconsin .

I confermed this with a representive from one of Marteks largest customers today who personaly goes to their factory sevral times a year and purchases well over a million doller's woth of product from Martek each year .

This is part of how I make my living consulting to larger companies on this very subject , for this very reason I always double check my sources .



funkinstein said:


> Trek gets their "round tubes" from Hexcel, and US company. the "lugs" are made in Waterloo. anything that says OCLV on it is made in Waterloo
> 
> goRz, sorry, didn't mean to sound condecending. just a lot of misinformation on this site lately. especially regarding "the big bad Trek"


In speaking with my friend about Martek's client list he mention that Martek's president mentioned to him that TREK was one of their largest clients .
Now this being said TREK will not confirm or denie this statement .
I have a feeling due to the volume of bicycles produced by Trek that they my be buying raw carbon stock and pre made carbon structures from any and all vendors that can produce the product to current ISO2000 standards .

Some production of pre-made carbon structures such as seat-stays and chain-stays , stems and other carbon components from Treks line may come from Martek as well .

Hexcel .. also supplies carbon tubes to people like Calfee , TREK , WOUNDUP 
their tube have a very distinct look with their bradded weave .


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## ronny (Apr 2, 2004)

Ellsworth moved all of their production in house in 2005. Not sure what is happening now though.

Devinci in Canada does a lot of their stuff in house.


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## KonaStinky05 (Dec 18, 2004)

Evil4bc said:


> SINISTER .. 100% Vermont made , FTW is the man end of story !


Damn right vermont. Go VT!


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## R1D3R (Jun 4, 2005)

SecondSkin said:


> Seems like this topic comes up quite a bit. I thought it would be worth making a list of those bike/frame builders that still actually make/weld their own DH/FR frames in their own plants (as opposed to those that only design the bikes and outsource the production). Please feel free to add those that you know about for sure.
> 
> Build their own frames in house:
> 
> ...


I think Trek is made in the usa... and I think dobermann bikes are in canada...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

R1D3R said:


> I think Trek is made in the usa... and I think dobermann bikes are in canada...


The only trek stuff made in the USA are the high end race bikes, and the only reason is so the engineers can tweak the designs immediatly, rather than wait for the factory to make the changes. It has nothing to really do with "making it in the good ole usa".


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## Oni (Jan 15, 2004)

*The Titus and Kinesis Story*



shiggy said:


> I had not heard that.


Yikes, if you want to waste hours of your life that you'll never get back, go read on the Titus board about the outsourcing of Titus frames to Kinesis and how now that they've closed the world is going to end and this bit of that bike is going to be made in Arizona and that bit of that bike is going to be made overseas. It's actually a little funny.

Oni


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## Roaming Oregon (Feb 24, 2004)

Evil4bc said:


> Please see my other post above !


Evil4bc- I know you know your stuff.


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## matt (Feb 2, 2004)

turnerbikes said:


> FWIW, Knolly is right about the Kinesis plant shutting down in Portland. The have not made other brands there is a long time. Their house brand, Mountain Cycle was the last to be made there. All of the Turner bikes have been made exclusively by SAPA in Portland for years. They do great work, and going to lunch is never an adventure in strange food. I am really set on keeping Turner a US made product, but what do you guys actually think? Does it matter if I have it built in the congo at the same factory as Titus by pygmies? As long as it handles like a Turner and it backed by our service? What really matters to you guys that are spending your hard earned money on a new frame? It must mean something to some of you or this subject would not be as heated, or there be so much mis information and slight of hand in some cases of "which models" built where.
> You can contact me directly if you want, [email protected] or post it here.
> 
> David Turner


I honestly don't care who builds Turners or where Turners are made as long as they are always held to the same standards wherever they are built. I would rather they be built in the USA (don't ask me why) if the consumer is going to pay the same price for the frame, but if the cost to us becomes cheaper by moving to Taiwan or something thats great!


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## SecondSkin (Oct 17, 2005)

deoreo said:


> This thread has really got me wondering, why people think it is such a good thing to have a bike built "in house" in the USA?


I started this thread with the disclaimer that I intended no value judgements on which is better, I just think it should be well known who makes what. In the auto industry, for instance, General Motors sells vehicles that are made by several other makers...and who is actually making the vehicle is well known (though the end buyer may or may not care). In the bike industry there seems to be alot of secrecy as to who makes what.

Does it really matter? To my thinking it does, and here's why. I spent 13 years working as a sales engineer in factories, mostly steel and automotive. Every factory I have been in is under intense pressure to continuously "improve" their products. The word improve is in quotations because the definition of "improve" is variable depending on your perspective. To the shop superintendent, improvement means making the product faster, with less waste and less labor. To the marketing director it means making the product easier to sell.

In general, however, "improvement" on the shop floor means making the product more profitably and this has little to do with what the customer would consider improvement. Lets say Mr. Lee is the VP of operations for SuperFab of China, which makes bikes for several brands, among many other products. Now their frame building has been going great and quality is good, but things can always be "improved". Maybe Mr Lee's brother-in-law walks in selling welding rod at half the price of their normal supplier, but has identical "specs". Once the bike is welded are you going to notice the difference? Probably not -- until you case that 30' gap!

Fortunately, bikes are pretty simple contraptions and the exposure to this type of "optimisation" is rather limited. It is rampant in the auto industry. Still, there is some exposure: I for one hope that your new $2000 frame wasn't one where the fab shop decided to see if they could save 10 cents by extending the bottom bracket tap a few hundred extra frames. Simply put, this kind of "improvement" is easier to control if it happens in your own plant.


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## knollybikes.com (Jan 8, 2004)

deoreo said:


> This thread has really got me wondering, why people think it is such a good thing to have a bike built "in house" in the USA? I don't understand why people bash Giant, and other high end Tiawanese bicycle makers, but think bikes made be Kinesis, Anodizing Inc., and SAPA are just dandy, because they are built in the states.
> 
> Giant is the worlds largest quality bicycle manufacturer - Merida is not far behind.
> Kinesis, Anodizing Inc., SAPA and others are primarily based in Taiwan, and China,
> ...


Just wanted to clear a few things up here in this post, as there are several incorrect statements:

First off Anodizing Inc doesn't exist anymore - not as Anodizing Inc. anyway. They were bought by Sapa a few years ago. Sapa is certainly not Taiwanese: it is a Swedish owned company that is one of the top Value Added aluminum manufacturers in the world (i.e. think hydroformed Volvo chasis). Sapa's weldments division is just one part of a much larger aluminum company.

Secondly, in terms of tubesets, yes many (most) are made overseas - even Easton moved most if not all tube production overseas recently. However, there are still high end North American tube manufacturers, such as Worth, as well as numerous aluminum manufacturers who produce seam and drawn tubing. And, if you think that all overseas tubing is equal, think again: some of it is SOOO bad, it's unbelievable. Like wall thickness vairations of 25-40%. This is not such a big deal if it's on the side of the tube, but what if the thin section is on the underside of the down tube? Oops - don't know how that head tube sheared off! Of course, the customer can't see this because no one's going to cut their frame in half. But anyone who's looked at this stuff closely knows that there are huge variations in the available quality of the tubes.

The flip side of course, is that even though a company like Easton may now have tubes made overseas, of course, the quality of those tubes will certainly be excellent. Sapa also forms many of their tubes in house as they have their own tube butting machine, as well as complete heat treating and extruding facilities.

Also, in terms of manufacturing, the reason to have everything in house is basically quality control. When it's under your watchful eye, you can be assured that everything is to your specifications. If you are working offshore, you don't know if there's a problem until it's too late. That's why big companies have engineering staff IN Taiwan and China, to oversee production.

And finally, in terms of quality - _some_ Taiwanese manufacturers are very good and some US manufacturers are not that great. However, companies that are looking to make ultra-high end products are still going to manufacture domestically because if affords a certain level of control not available by sub-contracting the manufacturing out half way around the world.

Edit: the previous post by "SecondSkin" is bang on - again, this is exactly what I'm talking about by keeping production in house. Also, there is a difference when a manufacturer sets up their own facility somewhere where there is cheap labour (or other cost saving measures), vs sub-contracting the manufacturing to a third party who employs cheap labour. 
In the first situation, usually the manufacturer has 100% control over every stage of the product's manufacturing, while in the second scenario, the situation that Secondskin described is routine.

Cheers,


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

knollybikes.com said:


> Ha ha - Thanks Brad!
> 
> I don't know if I would say "whip Sapa into shape!". Cheers!


Thanks Nole 
I'm sure SAPA will produce an amazing product for you , I have been very impressed with there work on past project and it sounds liek things are only getting better .
Can't wait to see the new bikes !


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

Roaming Oregon said:


> Evil4bc- I know you know your stuff.


Sorry  no disrespect ment at all  
It was hard trying to reply with facts and inform with some sort of clairity ... didnt mean to come off sounding harsh my bad yo!
and carbon is just high tech glue and string .... Steel is real!


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## deoreo (Aug 26, 2005)

knollybikes.com said:


> Just wanted to clear a few things up here in this post, as there are several incorrect statements:
> 
> First off Anodizing Inc doesn't exist anymore - not as Anodizing Inc. anyway. They were bought by Sapa a few years ago. Sapa is certainly not Taiwanese: it is a Swedish owned company that is one of the top Value Added aluminum manufacturers in the world (i.e. think hydroformed Volvo chasis). Sapa's weldments division is just one part of a much larger aluminum company.
> 
> ...


I understand, from a manufacturing standpoint, that it's nice to have production close by, to keep an eye on things.

But I don't necessarily agree that things must be made domestically in the "ultra high end" catagory.

I have read threads comparing the Giant Reign and the SantaCruz Nomad, also
the Giant Faith, and SantaCruz VP Free - each of these models are very similar to each other, yet you will see people claiming the Giant models are sub-par because they are made in Taiwan. What I wonder is if people would react the same if the SantaCruz models were, instead of being made at the Kinesis, US branch - made in their Taiwan facility?

Look at the stats. for Kinesis - is the quality from Kinesis Taiwan really going to be radically different from Kinesis USA?

http://www.kinesis.com.tw/branch_2004new.htm

Trust me, I'm not in any way putting down SantaCruz - they make fantastic bicycles, and I believe they really understand the enthusiast MTB market.
(and I eventually want to get a small Nomad frame)

I just don't necessarily think they are better because they are made in a US facility.

Also, what about the quality of Specialized bicycles, such as the demo, epic, and enduro
which are made by Merida?


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## Ridin'Dirty (Jun 4, 2004)

DaveX said:


> Your bike was made in Arizona in a building that says Titus on it.
> 
> Where Titus makes it's various frames...
> 
> ...


YESSSSSS!!! USA! USA! USA!


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## SecondSkin (Oct 17, 2005)

Here's the list so far:

Build their own frames in house:

Cannondale
Sinister
Ellsworth
Rocky Mountain (high end models)
Cortina
Brooklyn Machine Works (?)
Foes
Intense
Ventana
Trek/Gary Fisher (high end models)
Devinci (most models)
Cliffcat
Orange
Knolly
Titus (most models)

Outsource their frame production, either off-shore or domestic:

Santa Cruz
Transition
Versus
Kona
Banshee
Canfield (?)
Turner
Azonic
Titus (Supermoto, Motolite)

Third category: build their own frames at their own plants in Asia

Specialized
Giant


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## iattackthedarkness (Jan 14, 2004)

Just to clarify, for 2006, all Ellsworths are made in Vancouver, Wa. USA


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## knollybikes.com (Jan 8, 2004)

deoreo said:


> I understand, from a manufacturing standpoint, that it's nice to have production close by, to keep an eye on things.
> 
> But I don't necessarily agree that things must be made domestically in the "ultra high end" catagory.
> 
> ...


You are right: and, I did say exactly what your concerns are: being made domestically does not gaurantee quality. Just look to the auto industry for many, many examples...



> And finally, in terms of quality - some Taiwanese manufacturers are very good and some US manufacturers are not that great. However, companies that are looking to make ultra-high end products are still going to manufacture domestically because if affords a certain level of control not available by sub-contracting the manufacturing out half way around the world.


However, what I am saying is that any company that really _is concerned_ about their quality is going to keep a very very close eye on their manufacturing. For smaller companies or really high end products, most likely their products will be made in house. For a small speciality company like ours, there would be NO benefit to making the product overseas: the quality control would be much more difficult, and if would be almost impossible to have done in Asia what we do locally. Not because they can't do it, but becaues they're not set up to do that kind of work economically.

And, Kenisis USA closed its doors a couple of months ago: Sapa is booming. There was no comparison in the level of manufacturing quality coming out of those two facilities. I'm not saying that represents all US vs. Asia manufacturers, but in this particular case it way very true.

Cheers,


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

SecondSkin said:


> Here's the list so far:
> 
> Build their own frames in house:
> 
> ...


 Giant belongs in the the first category, they build their own frames in house. That they are a Taiwanese based company does not change that.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

SecondSkin said:


> Seems like this topic comes up quite a bit. I thought it would be worth making a list of those bike/frame builders that still actually make/weld their own DH/FR frames in their own plants (as opposed to those that only design the bikes and outsource the production).


I'm late getting into this but this is a subject near and dear to my heart. There have been some really good responses here that I enjoyed reading. I'll try to keep it in that vein.

There is no denying that good products can come from anywhere. Anywhere. Successful companies have to be competitive and in the bicycle industry, pricing is key. If all your peers/competitors are pricing below you due to outsourcing overseas (and they're saving money because overseas labor is cheaper and those companies have much smaller overhead, liability, and other associated costs), you have to offer a technological, performance, or quality advantage to not lose ground and that can be pretty damn hard to do in an objective fashion. Today it's easy to be different but it's *hard* to be _better_.

On a macro scale, you're going to see very little objective difference in quality between any US or the experienced overseas builders. Large builders benefit the most from outsourcing overseas; they can afford to keep a quality control/liason/advocate on site to ensure and maintain specifications are being met. Small builders have a more difficult time with this since they usually have to either make numerous trips to the manufacturing facilities or wait until they show up on the boat to find out if all is well. Pretty risky, either way. If objective quality is a wash, what else is there? Yep, time to consider the economic and political implications...

Personally & professionally, I am more concerned with keeping manufacturing jobs here in the US or with our neighbors & friends with similiar economic, environmental, and quality of life standards than with what something costs. In most cases, it is much cheaper to buy product produced in China or a developing or third world country, but I'd rather spend the extra 5-10-20% more in cost than to contribute to the further decline of the US's manufacturing ability and the loss of middle class & blue collar jobs in the US. That's my personal & professional decision and I've put my money where my mouth is. Everything my company makes (framebuilding tooling), we make in our own shop. All the raw product we buy comes from US mills. Any ancillary components are from the US or as I said above, neighbors & friends with similiar economic, environmental, and quality of life standards. It costs more to do this, but I think it's worth it. My immediate family has applied the same standards to our personal purchases. It can be damn hard (You wouldn't believe how hard it is to buy pair of tennis shoes or a wireless router or a messenger bag not made in China), but it can be done.

There is no-one to blame about the loss of manufacturing and its economic implictions in the US and our neighbors except us, the consumers, and its a personal choice we all have to make. In my opinion, if we let pricing become the only criteria we evaluate on when buying products, then it'll just be one big WalMart here before long. I'd just as soon not see that happen.


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## deoreo (Aug 26, 2005)

SecondSkin said:


> Here's the list so far:
> 
> Build their own frames in house:
> 
> ...


Maybe there should be a fourth category: build their own frames at their own plants in Canada, or British Columbia

Rocky Mountain
Devinci
Knolly

Oh, but wait, they are attached to our continent, and our neighbors to the north, so it's ok, eh?   

Seriously, though, this is the attitude that I am talking about, that I don't understand - 
why exclude Giant - one of the largest bicycle maker in the world(if not _the_ largest) because they are located in Taiwan? I mean, they do make their own stuff, right?

Edit: oops, this, just in:
Fifth category: build their own frames at their own plants in England

Orange


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## turnerbikes (Apr 12, 2004)

*Thanks*

I really appreciate the emails I have gotten on this subject, whatever view they expressed it is good to learn.

As Knolly pointed out, SAPA is Swedish. They have been making tons of SC bikes for years, and when compared to a Giant for example, has little to do with it being better made. There is no doubt that the Asian built bikes can be very good looking. If as has been stated here, the VP FRee or the Nomad is better than it's Taiwan competition, what the riders are seeing is not really "Quality" but engineering and attention to detail that in MY OPINION ONLY can only come from riders designing bikes. The Quality that Knolly refers to, that which can't be seen, are stuff that would not show up untill later.

The single biggest reason that anyone would buy a Taiwanese made bike in the emails I have been getting is cost. Period. Re reading the posts above it is the same. If you can't swing 2100 for a Highline, I understand. Buy something to ride and have fun.

But keep in mind, a comparable built bike in Taiwan costs the importer considerably less, not a little less but way freakin less. If you are buying a bike built in Asia it should cost you way freakin less. For many riders that is a top priority, cost, so make sure you get the deal that buying off shore affords. But if the brand you are looking at is charging in the neighborhood as much as a North American made bike, you are getting hosed.

David Turner
[email protected]


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## deoreo (Aug 26, 2005)

turnerbikes said:


> There is no doubt that the Asian built bikes can be very good looking. If as has been stated here, the VP FRee or the Nomad is better than it's Taiwan competition, what the riders are seeing is not really "Quality" but engineering and attention to detail that in MY OPINION ONLY can only come from riders designing bikes.


This is the kind of statement that keeps perpetuating the myth that Taiwan = bad.
I agree that design and engineering from enthusiast riders is key, but are you really
impling that a company such as Giant does not get input from riders when designing, and refining a bicycle before they put it into production?

I originally wanted to purchase a SantaCruz Nomad, however small sizes were not avaliable. I instead purchased a Giant Reign frame. I may in the future still purchase a Nomad because I would like the option to run a coil rear shock - however, I cannot deny the fact that the Reign is a fantastic frame - in material quality, and intended use.
I have a hard time accepting that the Nomad would be _that_ much better in design and use. Also, understand that I have ridden cheap department store bikes, and ultra-expensive bikes. So it's not a case of "you don't know what a proper bicycle rides like."

What about $3000, $5000, and $7000 bicycles that come from a proudction company such as Specialized, but are made in Taiwan? I'm sure Specialized believes the design and engineering they have in those bicycles warrant the cost. Do I agree with that? - that's a whole 'nother debate 

I am not wanting to start any flame war, or anything, I think there are great bikes from everywhere out there, I just find the Taiwan bashing thing fascinating.


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## dandurston (Jan 20, 2005)

deoreo said:


> This is the kind of statement that keeps perpetuating the myth that Taiwan = bad.


There seems to be 2 issues at play here:
1) Are Taiwan built bikes worse in terms of quality?
2) Do you want to support that practice where people are paid very little to do supposedly skilled work?

Answer:
1) No bike is gaurenteed to be perfect or crap depending on where it's built. Bikes built in house however have a much better chance of being well built because the designers are right there and the company can oversee stuff and make sure it's done right. When comission some to be done in Taiwan you don't know for sure how good the company is and even if they are good you don't know for sure if they totally understand you plans or build stuff exactly the way you want it. You never know when they might MIG weld something instead of TIG welding it. Because of this, your odds with an in house built bike are better. Taiwan might not be bad but in house built is likely better.

Company size is an issue though because larger companies like specialized can afford to have guys in Taiwan overseaing the process and it seems to me that would increase the odds that things turn out properly.

2) Do you want to support the loss of American jobs? Well it's tough to say because everyone places their interests higher than the interests of other so even if in theory you'd like to support the local guys when it comes down to a 1000$ price difference the decision gets tougher. I think it's up to the individual to make their own decision here keeping in mind their budget, the possible variances in quality etc.


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## finchy (Jan 21, 2004)

well i dotn know about u but ive seen quite a few cannondales break, devincis, treks and ellsworth break... if the design is good and the manufacturer makes it proerly i dont think it should matter if it was made in china or the states or canada for that matter, as long as you are getting a quality, well designed product.... look at how american cars are peices of crap now whereas japanese cars come wiht like 10 year warrantys!


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## dandurston (Jan 20, 2005)

Well there's a big difference between Japan and Taiwan. Taiwan is more like Japan was 50 years ago. The bottom line is that Taiwan is known for making pretty crappy stuff because they often make pretty crappy stuff. Sure they are capable of making good stuff and in some instances they do but in general they don't. If a bike company gets it frames made in Taiwan you can be sure they choose that location not because they think that's were the best workmanship is but rather because it's the cheapest or more kindly, pretty cheap and still pretty good. At best it's a gamble because you don't know what you're getting.

About in house built bikes that break. Yeah it happens but the point is that it's less likely to happen. There are many reasons a frame breaks but the 3 big ones are using the wrong bike (ie. freeriding a AM bike), bad workmanship and a bad design. Now notice that only one of those 3 has anything to do with where and how the bike is built. A lot of RM7's were breaking back in 2000 or so but not because they weren't awesomely built bikes. They simply had a poor design that put a lot of stress on undersized bearings combined with a high leverage ratio. In order for a bike to be a good frame it needs to have a good design, good materials and good assembly. By getting the frames built in Taiwan the odds of it failing due to the assemble is slightly higher. 

However I'm not saying bikes shouldn't be built there. If you're gonna save 500$ on a bike then maybe it's worth a 2% increase in the chance that it breaks. Also, it's entirely possible for manufacturers to slightly overbuild a frame that they are planning to export so that even if the welds are quite as good it'll still hold up. This is a very tiny factor but if a manufacturer knows for sure that master welders are going to be building there frames then maybe they can save a bit of weight and still have it end up just as strong.


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## DaveX (Feb 10, 2004)

dandurston said:


> Well there's a big difference between Japan and Taiwan. Taiwan is more like Japan was 50 years ago.


On what do you base this on? Please backup your statement with some factual information. Thanks.


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

The only Brooklyn made by Kenisis is the park bike. All the other frames are made in Brooklyn Ny


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## StinkyOne (Jan 19, 2004)

Roaming Oregon said:


> Cross Ellsworth and Rocky (some in house- some elseware) off that list, within a year you could probably knock c-dale off it too (the carbon road bike they are making is done across the pond- so in time they will move production (speculation.)
> 
> Many people may not realize to call it "Made in the USA" you only need to paint it and hang the parts on it here in the States. I'm not sure how that works in Canada for Rocky- but whatever.


I hate to say it (because I don't really like Ellsworth), but they are made here in the states. They just remodeled their factory and are making all their bikes here.


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## SOILWORK (Jan 17, 2004)

I cant say nothing bad about bikes welded in Taiwan...I been riding Kona's for ten years and never had one crack.


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## Roaming Oregon (Feb 24, 2004)

deoreo said:


> This is the kind of statement that keeps perpetuating the myth that Taiwan = bad.
> I agree that design and engineering from enthusiast riders is key, but are you really
> impling that a company such as Giant does not get input from riders when designing, and refining a bicycle before they put it into production?


Guys- NEWSBREAK here. Not only do some extremely experienced riders become heavily involved in the development of the bikes that come out of that factory- but the main designers and engineers involved in the development of those bikes are avid riders. That's why the newest offering from them rides so good when set up right.

Another NEWSBREAK- The people that work for said factory are paid well- in fact many people strive to work for them- thus they get the best of the best and pay them well.


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## Roaming Oregon (Feb 24, 2004)

iattackthedarkness said:


> Just to clarify, for 2006, all Ellsworths are made in Vancouver, Wa. USA


Jon,
Thanks for clarifying. Is that factory owned by Ellsworth? With all the factory workers employees of Ellsworth? Back when they started I know he was making them in his garage in Ramona- but later contracted production out. You're closer to that so you would know


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## dream4est (May 21, 2003)

turnerbikes said:


> I really appreciate the emails I have gotten on this subject, whatever view they expressed it is good to learn.
> 
> As Knolly pointed out, SAPA is Swedish. They have been making tons of SC bikes for years, and when compared to a Giant for example, has little to do with it being better made. There is no doubt that the Asian built bikes can be very good looking. If as has been stated here, the VP FRee or the Nomad is better than it's Taiwan competition, what the riders are seeing is not really "Quality" but engineering and attention to detail that in MY OPINION ONLY can only come from riders designing bikes. The Quality that Knolly refers to, that which can't be seen, are stuff that would not show up untill later.
> 
> ...


one of the best posts in this forum- ever. top thread too. the above post is like that line in the tom cruise movie. its the truth- but like crazy tom says some people cant handle it. thanks dt for bringing your game on over to the dh/freeride forum. its been pretty juvenile since the old days and we need some upgradeage. you just said what a lot of people want to say but wont in a politically correct climate.

i look forward to more turner bike info here.


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## dream4est (May 21, 2003)

SOILWORK said:


> I cant say nothing bad about bikes welded in Taiwan...I been riding Kona's for ten years and never had one crack.


i had one 3.5 years and it was cracked ( 01stab- seatstay- very common). so were all the fs ones my friends owned pre -03-04. great bikes i loved mine but they break. mine was fine with a new stay but even kona admitted to me on the phone that batch of stays would be almost considered defective by boutique brands. the cnc machining was not centered on the seatstay yolk and it was visible even to the human eye. they sent me a free one without even wanting to see my receipt (just wanted to see the stay).

i saw a 00 or 01 stab primo with 13 cracks once. hilarious. the welds looked awesome though. they were just all cracked!!!


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## WATTO (Nov 6, 2004)

add Cove bikes on that list there made in canada


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## iattackthedarkness (Jan 14, 2004)

Roaming Oregon said:


> Jon,
> Thanks for clarifying. Is that factory owned by Ellsworth? With all the factory workers employees of Ellsworth? Back when they started I know he was making them in his garage in Ramona- but later contracted production out. You're closer to that so you would know


Yes the factory is Ellsworth owned and the employees are Ellsworth employees.


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## mtbames190 (Nov 18, 2005)

all of you forgot about marin the make there frames in hose seen it my self and i ride one. thre made in nor cal


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## TWISTED (Feb 13, 2004)

KINESIS USA DID NOT CLOSE TWO MONTHS AGO.
If they did, then there are a bunch of generous trespassers in there building frames.  
I think that rumour was started by SAPA.

The Kinesis USA machinists and welders make almost all the Mountain cycle frames, the remainder are QC'd and finished in house.

Taiwan CAN make great bikes, the problem is that their workers don't know that they are making high-end bicycle frames. If something is within tolerance of some drawings, then it's good to them. It's all about the QC and communication between the designer / engineer, and production people. If a company is based in the USA and orders a quantity of frames from TW they get what is sent, and so does the customer. If frames are made in the USA then there is a better interaction between the designers and the production people so that the finished product will turn out as planned. Any problems or revisions can quickly and easily be put into the production run. The USA production people ride high end bikes to work and have a great deal of knowledge about what they are building, the same cannot be said about the Asian workers who could not ever afford such a bike.


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## Jim Mac (Jun 29, 2004)

*Rocky Mountain*

I believe they still make their own, my (now old) 2002 Pipeline was signed by the frame welder!


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## Max_winner1 (Feb 11, 2004)

Just because cortina makes bikes in the back or side of the house does not mean its bad. Those guys rule, know there stuff I my triton DH 2005 last year looks awsome. Great bike keep it in the U.S.


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## SecondSkin (Oct 17, 2005)

TWISTED said:


> KINESIS USA DID NOT CLOSE TWO MONTHS AGO.
> If they did, then there are a bunch of generous trespassers in there building frames.
> I think that rumour was started by SAPA.
> 
> ...


Yep, exactly what I have been meaning to say, but haven't had the time to type. Thankyou Twisted. Now add in the fact that when a frame is outsourced, the supplier has their own incentives in mind, many (most, actually) not in line with the interests of the consumer. Then add the possibility of counterfeit parts, etc....there is a reason to still make frames "in-house".


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## Big B (Nov 2, 2005)

I can only speak as a consumer here.

I used to think my Giant AC'1 was a great bike, and I didn't understand all the hype about the boutique bikes. I figured they all basically did the same thing, whether they were made in Tiawan or the USA. Then I rode a V-tach. WOW....what a difference between bikes. But the V-tach is only better because of the way I ride. What I'm getting at is everyone's riding style is different and bikes should be selected based on how they are going to be ridden, and what kind of reliability you expect given your riding style.

I thought an AC'1 was all the bike I would ever need because I wasn't hucking huge or hitting mach 2 down some boulder strewn mountain side. But as I progressed, and began doing the things I previously thought only maniacs would do, I realized it was a complete miracle that my bike was still in one piece. Oh...wait, it's not in one piece. The headtube ovalized, and my chainstay broke in half on the weld. Giant refused to warranty the headtube, but they did send out a new chainstay. So ask me how confident I feel about all the other welds on the bike. Who knows which one will go next. These are the issues you run into when you buy from a really big bike manufacturer apparently.

I now demand a bike that I can put my complete faith in, a manufacturer that I can talk to and get answers, and a warm fuzzy from knowing that someone put a hell of a lot of time and energy into designing my bike to be the best in its niche and making sure it was manufactured to the highest standards.

I realized I need to pay more for quality, reliability, and engineering. So rather than getting the VP-Free I had been drooling over for a year, I bought a used V-tach frame for roughly the same price as a new VP-Free frame (I should have bought a new V-tach, but I'm Dutch).

The quality on the Knolly bike is so striking, so visible, it's inspiring. I noticed it on my friends RFX as well.

To make my comments barely relate to this thread, I'll close with this:
There's a lot more to a bike than where it's manufactured, but after reading this thread, it should be easy to say that boutique bikes are the best for all reasons stated above. If you want the best, you pay more. It's always been that way. I don't expect it will change anytime soon.


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## Dobmaster (Dec 13, 2005)

R1D3R said:


> I think Trek is made in the usa... and I think dobermann bikes are in canada...


I just want to confirm that one 

YES the DOBERMANN Fab. frames are 100% made in-house in Canada by Mat and myself.

I did not read all the post in that tread...but this is my opinion on all of this...
Some company have there frames made in Taiwan and did not event draw there own product...they just pic a frame from the Big taiwan catalogue and make some small changes to them and put there decals on them...this i find pretty lame...

Otters do actualy design there own frames and do there own original drawings ....But have them produce by a otter company. If they have them made in the US or Asia...it is mostly a marketing issue.

Cheers!

Alain


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## Full Mountain (Mar 30, 2005)

does anyone know if DMR makes there frames in house or if they outsource?
DMR(don't work for them just ride one)


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

Evil4bc said:


> Ok from what I can figure out they make the Session , Fule and Remedy frames in house in Wisconsin .
> They have one of if not the biggest bicycle production facility in the U.S.A.
> Going so far as to even minipulate and form tube sets and produce all the OCLV products in house !
> I have herd some crazy stories of the engineers e-mailing CAD files directly to the CNC machines from France durning the tour to make custom clamshell molds for custom one-off OCLV carbon bikes for Lance ! If you knew all the process involved in something like this it would turn your brian to mush ! and suposedly they produced a custom full carbon tubed and luged OCLV climbing frame for Lance in 3 days from France durning the second tour he won .


yup all true. an being from wisconsin i can vouch for Evil4bc on this.

but i still dont like trek.


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

what about Seven. i think they are made in the US. they dont make and fr or dh bikes. but still very sick bikes.


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## MTB1986 (Aug 13, 2005)

PblcNme said:


> cannondale simply rules!!


I agree !


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## freerider167 (Dec 2, 2004)

isn't giant and spesh made in the same warehouse or factory in taiwan? thats what i hear...


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## puttsey (Oct 16, 2004)

did anyone forget Soul Cycles???


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