# Payaso |||



## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Ok I finally started on my new 36er got all the tubes bent up I still dont if Im going 
put a radius bend in the top tube...


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## BILL E (Apr 13, 2011)

I don't think you can go wrong either way but a radius would look really nice. Give us all the info on the tubes and pieces. Can't wait to see it come together.:thumbsup:


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## ericpulvermacher (Nov 1, 2008)

looks great, leave the top tube strait :thumbsup:


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Im going to bend one up and try it just to see how it looks


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## Brad Bedell (Apr 18, 2009)

With a curved top tube, it's frightening how close this one is going to look like what I'll be building.

Are you doing anything somewhat calculated/different with the geometry or just playing?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Brad Bedell said:


> With a curved top tube, it's frightening how close this one is going to look like what I'll be building.
> 
> Are you doing anything somewhat calculated/different with the geometry or just playing?


 Cool I would like to see some pics of your build, on P2 I shorten the CS's about 3/4"
I think I might be able to go more, maybe an inch but have to see how close we get to 
seat tube Walt just sent me my new fork for this bike so it will have 40mm more rake.

Yea just playing since I'm no expert learning as I go!!


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## Brad Bedell (Apr 18, 2009)

Good to hear. I like this approach. I wish I could let myself just create like a mad-scientist again. 

I got caught up moving, so had to set the shop up again. But it's nearly finished, AC unit installed this past weekend and I'm due the final 'cleanup' now. 

As for building. I'm making the process too complicated. (as usual) otherwise I'd be doing what you are. I'm still playing with tooling. (that I know I don't need)


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Curved Top Tube*

Well I bent up a peice of 1 1/4" tubing for the TT and Im thinking this how its going
to be I like it,























Also a couple pics of my new WaltWorks fork.


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

what's with the brazed line a couple inches down the fork tubes? is that a joke? surely walt would use full
length pipe instead of splicing a few inches onto a shorter tube to make that work. wondering


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

just looks like a sleeve to me.

Tim


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

bamwa1 said:


> what's with the brazed line a couple inches down the fork tubes? is that a joke? surely walt would use full
> length pipe instead of splicing a few inches onto a shorter tube to make that work. wondering


 The fork legs are full length with sleeved gusset its beeeeaaaauuuttiful!!!!


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## BILL E (Apr 13, 2011)

Oh yes, somthin' on my end is getting to be full length as well. This bike is coming along nicely, keep the photos coming!


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## TraumaARNP (Oct 13, 2005)

Clown power....nice so far.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

BILL E said:


> Oh yes, somthin' on my end is getting to be full length as well. This bike is coming along nicely, keep the photos coming!


 UH....ITS Ok to love your bike.......but ITS not OK to LOOOOVE your bike....Im just
saying.


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## BILL E (Apr 13, 2011)

Yes well I guess I let my enthusiasm run away. I am really impressed with the way you dive in with both feet on these 36er's, good for you! These bikes are such character pieces simply because of the need to make the form fit the function. The big wheels really control the design agenda and make for some cool tube juncture solutions.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Copin' Tubes*

Well I did a little tube coping today they need just a touch more but there close!!!


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## Tall Boy Bram (Jan 12, 2006)

Nice job so far Todwill!!

Thumbs up for the progress you make!

Did you bought the headtube or CNC-ed it yourself?

TBB


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

The head tube is a Paragon OS 105mm I wish they made a 75mm one so you could
The bars down a little or make room for a suspension fork 1-1/2~2" just enough to 
Knock the edge off.......and while they're at make some 800g rims and 900g tires!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

OK did a little more this morning cut in the top tube and tighten up some of the other 
copes making all the radius's straight is pain in the arse!!!:madman:


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## dogdaysunrise (May 15, 2011)

If you weren't around I wouldn't even know about 36.
I followed you other threads, they are and this is truly impressive work and craftsmanship!


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

you guys are getting me horny to weld a frame damn it. whos got an extra jig?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Thanks, the 36er bikes have been arround for about five years best I can tell theirs a couple guys
on here I believe keaner and benwit made there's back '07ish time frame and the Mod on this forum
has made 5 or 6 Im guessing about 20 of them total in the US maybe a couple more.


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## dogdaysunrise (May 15, 2011)

It is very interesting and I would love to ride one.
How would you describe the ride of an 36er with a few words?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*36ers in few words*

30% heavier, 10% slower, and 50% more fun. 

-Walt



dogdaysunrise said:


> It is very interesting and I would love to ride one.
> How would you describe the ride of an 36er with a few words?


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## dogdaysunrise (May 15, 2011)

Sounds like a the highest percentage is on the right side!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Walt said:


> 30% heavier, 10% slower, and 50% more fun.
> 
> -Walt


Closer to 60% fun also 20% more stable going down the mountain (49.5" wheel base
And 3 foot tires) but YEA what Walt says!!


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## Tall Boy Bram (Jan 12, 2006)

todwil said:


> Thanks, the 36er bikes have been arround for about five years best I can tell theirs a couple guys
> on here I believe keaner and benwit made there's back '07ish time frame and the Mod on this forum
> has made 5 or 6 Im guessing about 20 of them total in the US maybe a couple more.


Yep, But you Todwill, you allready made 3 36-er in a short time! Thumps up for you!

TBB (who ordered today the tube material for the solo bike, next friday I can pick it up!)


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Tall Boy Bram said:


> Yep, But you Todwill, you allready made 3 36-er in a short time! Thumps up for you!
> 
> TBB (who ordered today the tube material for the solo bike, next friday I can pick it up!)


 2.5 36er's, P3 is still in the Jig


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Copin' Tubes....O what fun!!*

Got most of the rear triangle cut in....still need to finish one seat stay!!:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

That is sharp looking!


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## Tall Boy Bram (Jan 12, 2006)

@ Todwill: Can you take a close-up picture of the rear side (where the rear axle is mounted) of your rig? And also some pictures of the (complete) backside of it? It will help me to build my own. The day before yesterday I bought some alu profiles like yours and I'm not sure about the mounting of the rear axle....

Can you do that? It would be great!

TBB


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## boyd2 (Oct 12, 2008)

I have wanted to build a frame for a long time (like 20 years). I am finally getting some momentum going and threads like this is what is doing it for me. I am also getting some good ideas for jigs.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Here's a couple pics of todays effort and jig.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Forgot one.


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## jOrGe.mRNh (Aug 7, 2010)

Great job on thar frame! Really a master piece!
The 36er part :/


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Raaaaad!


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## CurbDestroyer (Mar 6, 2008)

Where did you get that tubing bender?


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

todwil said:


> Thanks, the 36er bikes have been arround for about five years best I can tell theirs a couple guys
> on here I believe keaner and benwit made there's back '07ish time frame and the Mod on this forum
> has made 5 or 6 Im guessing about 20 of them total in the US maybe a couple more.


I've heard that same 20 number tossed around recently as well. You are adding to the population very quickly! Love the lines of your newest frame, very sharp.



Walt said:


> 30% heavier, 10% slower, and 50% more fun.
> 
> -Walt


Depends on what you came from to what you are going to. My Ti 36er is the same weight as my steel 29er, although at considerably more expense and with much nicer components. If I ever find the time to make a set of tires it could actualy come in a few lbs lighter. So far I'm only about 5% slower, but I was never very fast to begin with for whatever that's worth. Without a doubt much more fun, even when climbing!


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Fast isn't the same as fun...*

I would love to see a ~1000g XC tire for 36ers. And a ~700-800 gram rim. That would be a game changer. I believe when we weighed Marcus' wheelset (with rotors, tires, tubes) it was about 20 pounds BY ITSELF! Doesn't matter how fancy the frame/fork/components get at that point, the bike will be a tank.

But then again, as I try to tell people all the time, the fastest bike isn't always the most fun. 36ers are way fun, whether it's 5% slower or 10%, regardless of their weight. I have been having a blast building them - now if only I had space in the garage for one of my own!

-Walt



mbeardsl said:


> I've heard that same 20 number tossed around recently as well. You are adding to the population very quickly! Love the lines of your newest frame, very sharp.
> 
> Depends on what you came from to what you are going to. My Ti 36er is the same weight as my steel 29er, although at considerably more expense and with much nicer components. If I ever find the time to make a set of tires it could actualy come in a few lbs lighter. So far I'm only about 5% slower, but I was never very fast to begin with for whatever that's worth. Without a doubt much more fun, even when climbing!


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Agree on all accounts. Game changer is spot on - we'd see more built if we had options for resonable wheel weights as that seems to be the #1 problem. The weight of a built wheel is indeed quite surprising - I certainly notice the weight on the climbs.

I've spoken to others about doing a run of rims but at 200 MOQ that's a bit of an investment and then finding somebody with the know-how to actually roll and weld the rims, then selling them...

As for tires, Schwalbe says 5000 tires minimum so they have no plans to ever produce a 36" tire (I asked HQ in Germany). I'm sure others are the similar. We had another thread going somewhere discussing a unicycler making his own 36" racing ralph (840g) with success and whether the load on a bicycle differs enough from a unicycle to make it unridable as you have to break the bead and then sew it back together. I began messing with an old set of SB8s but won't touch it again for a few weeks.


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## Clockwork Bikes (Jun 17, 2006)

*Shaft Collars*



todwil said:


> Here's a couple pics of todays effort and jig.
> 
> View attachment 634562


Throw some of these on the dummy axle so it's centered every time.
McMaster-Carr

Anvil-Bringheli adapter 5 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

-Joel


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Clockwork Bikes said:


> Throw some of these on the dummy axle so it's centered every time.
> McMaster-Carr
> 
> Yea I was thinking about getting another smart axle for dummies from Anvil so I could leave this one in the jig
> ...


Yea I was thinking about getting another smart axle for dummies from Anvil so I could leave this one in the jig



jOrGe.mRNh said:


> Great job on thar frame! Really a master piece!
> The 36er part :/


 Thanx...I think...what is :/?



CurbDestroyer said:


> Where did you get that tubing bender?


 Harbor freight with different rollers from Swag Offroad also have a JD2 that I bend up the 
ST's and CT's with!!!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Walt said:


> Raaaaad!


 Thanx I cant wait to ride it the frames going to be 2.5# lighter and I'm curious to
see the difference the fork makes.


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## boyd2 (Oct 12, 2008)

thanks for the pictures of the jig. That is a bit simpler (and cheaper) then the one I had in mind. I am probably going to copy that idea, if you dont mind.

I am really impressed with how much you are able to get done in a short period of time. I figure my first frame is going to take me a year!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

boyd2 said:


> thanks for the pictures of the jig. That is a bit simpler (and cheaper) then the one I had in mind. I am probably going to copy that idea, if you dont mind.
> 
> I am really impressed with how much you are able to get done in a short period of time. I figure my first frame is going to take me a year!


 Thanx its a lot of fun. I'd like to take credit for the jig but my R&D is reveiw and duplicate I found a jig online and copied it with a few changes so copy away


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## boyd2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Todwil - The general jig design seems straight forward to me, but I have two questions. What size extrusions did you use (it looks like 80/20)? Do you find the jig stiff enough and stays alligned enough to keep the frame in a single plane (I am worried it will twist)?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

The jig is 80/20 series 15 standard not metric the main beam is 55" long any longer
and it would have to come freight truck not UPS big bucks the uprights were 4', 3' and
2'


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## rideonjon (May 27, 2009)

where did you find the extrusions?nice build by the way.
cheers,
jon


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

automation4less.com is where I ordered the 80/20 extrude and brackets


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## Tall Boy Bram (Jan 12, 2006)

*Selfmade Jig*

Last week I got some extrusions of Newton | profielsystemen, bandtransporteurs, trilvullers, lineaireenheden, rollenbanen, bewerkingseenheden that's a Dutch company who are selling all kinds of extrusions of Microtec. (Big German extrusions suplier). I bought one big 2000mm long 135x45mm extrusion where I can fit some 45x45mm extrusions on. As you can see on the picture, there's room enough for the tandemframe I will make later. First I will build the solo bikeframe.










The extrusion is fat, stiff and I will make it even stiffer by putting some extra L-profiles to the main tube.

Monday, I got all the stainless tubes & the L-profile so when I'm back from Eurobike next week, I can start building the framejig & the frame.










TBB


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Hope this works Nova has new down tubes with with 15deg bends in them if these were just a little longer they would be perfect I ordered 1 anyway maybe I can use it as a top tube

NOVA CRMO 38mm DOWNTUBE FOR MTB/29er WITH BEND :: NEW PRODUCTS !** :: Nova Cycles Supply Inc.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Here is the final pic of the original Payaso and my new Payaso!!!!


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## JerryW (Nov 18, 2008)

Looks good! I see curvy tubes and a Waltworks fork. Are there any other changes from the original?

Front geometry?

What color is this one going to be?


Jerry


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## Tall Boy Bram (Jan 12, 2006)

Congrats Todwill! It looks good. No paint it and ride it!

TBB


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

JerryW said:


> Looks good! I see curvy tubes and a Waltworks fork. Are there any other changes from the original?
> 
> Front geometry?
> 
> ...


 Payaso III will be green also the guy where I get powder coating done says I can get any color I want as long as it is green I had him order a box of Tecate green and Im the only one Who has used it so far. The WB is 49.5" the CS are 3/4" shorter the WW fork has 
80mm of rake this frame is a solid 2lbs lighter. First real ride will be tomorrow


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

Hey Walt,
what wall thickness did you use on the fork if you don't mind me asking?
Looks great BTW, whats the axle to crown on that bad boy?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Ride Report*

OK on sunday I rode 8 miles on a trail that I had ridden PI on lots of times the two bikes feel different in the ways I thought they would the longer rake fork and the shorter CS's
did what they were suppose to do. The fork got rid of the dampening effect which was making it harder to ride my other bikes not having to control the steering I wasnt and when I went to my other bikes I was steering all over. The shorter chain stays helped loads with
out of the saddle traction, this frame is 2lbs lighter, the fork is a little heavier than the 29er
fork, Walt made it for a XXXL rider.....me......More to come!!!


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## sasquatch rides a SS (Dec 27, 2010)

Ever think of doing a multi-speed version?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Theirs deraileur hangers on all of the frames, I may do a 1x10 someday.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Way beefy*

Probably overkill but Todd is a big dude (you can ask him how big, I'm not saying) and he rides *hard*, and the fork is way (510mm axle-crown) long, so I used 1 1/8 x .058 for the blades, sleeved up with 1 1/4 x .058. Ridiculously heavy, yes. Necessary in this case? Probably.

I think the idea fork blade for this kind of thing would be something like 31.8 1.3/.9 single butted. I've used 28.6 1.3/.8 for lighter 36er riders.

_Walt



j-ro said:


> Hey Walt,
> what wall thickness did you use on the fork if you don't mind me asking?
> Looks great BTW, whats the axle to crown on that bad boy?


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## j-ro (Feb 21, 2009)

Walt said:


> Probably overkill but Todd is a big dude (you can ask him how big, I'm not saying) and he rides *hard*, and the fork is way (510mm axle-crown) long, so I used 1 1/8 x .058 for the blades, sleeved up with 1 1/4 x .058. Ridiculously heavy, yes. Necessary in this case? Probably.
> 
> I think the idea fork blade for this kind of thing would be something like 31.8 1.3/.9 single butted. I've used 28.6 1.3/.8 for lighter 36er riders.
> 
> _Walt


Thanks Walt, makes sense to me.

What do you think about these uni-crowns from nova for a non giant?;
NOVA CRMO 29ER UN-MITERED :: TUBES STEEL :: Nova Cycles Supply Inc.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

OK I installed a setback seatpost to see how that effects the ride!!!


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

Been following this project from the beginning, nice work, love the subtle curves on top & down tube.
Mind me asking how much a such bike weighs all ready to go ?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Tons*

Thanx it weights right at 36lbs as it sits today.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## jakdupkustoms (May 30, 2008)

haha.You weight weenie you.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

jakdupkustoms said:


> haha.You weight weenie you.


 YUP every pound counts!!!


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## dogdaysunrise (May 15, 2011)

Looks amazing, impressive work!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Payaso III Slimed*

Thanx here some pics with color!!!


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## SnowMongoose (Feb 18, 2007)

Paint-job reminds me of my On-One Summer Season...
does yours glow in the dark too?!

Regardless of luminescence, awesome work, would love to ride something like it sometime!
(Too bad I never make it to AZ!)
How bad is the toe overlap?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*No Overlap*

Thanx, No toe overlap feet clear just fine even in clown shoes!!!


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## jncarpenter (Dec 20, 2003)

I love it!


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## Yoriel79 (Oct 4, 2011)

Cool


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

Great thread !
nice 3rd bike Tod !

and by the way :
http://forums.mtbr.com/650b-69er-new-wheel-trends/poll-36er-tires-744828.html


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Failure*

Went on a group ride Tuesday night and I broke a spoke and flatted at the same time putting a Tube in is a pain in the arse (note to self carry a pocket knife to cut car valve out) you have to remove the car valve and without a knife of some kind it takes a while a long Long while. Well I replaced the spoke but I couldn't get the tire to hold air tubeless
Style even tried a new tire so I cut out the newly installed valve and added extra tape
and even added a piece from lip to lip at the seam where the rim is joined together
Finally success even with the original tire......ALL is right with the world again!!!!


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

**** happens. 
I read this from my couch with a broken ankle after a stupid -and failed- wheeling...


the right side of the ankle :








the left side of the ankle :









I'll take a flat anytime instead of 3 months on the couch !


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

davidfrench said:


> **** happens.
> I read this from my couch with a right leg broken ankle after a stupid -and failed- wheeling...


Wow, that looks nasty! Hope you heal up nicely.

I just noticed your list of bikes - how tall are you?!?! You'll make you're new bike look somewhat "ordinary" I bet!


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

ahaahha thanks Matt, just a double fracture of the malleole.
It's not painful anymore, just tyring.
I'm 6f6, that's why the 36er will make sense to me !


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

OUCH.....Maybe you need to stick to an easier sport like football!!
Glad to hear it will be fine!!!


Did an 8 mile ride this morning 0 issues PIII is rolling strong!!!!


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

todwil said:


> OUCH.....Maybe you need to stick to an easier sport like football!!
> Glad to hear it will be fine!!!
> 
> Did an 8 mile ride this morning 0 issues PIII is rolling strong!!!!


ahahahha
I'm 37, and I've been riding and crashing all my life (usually -starting 19- on motorcycle) and it's the first time I brake a bone. It was meant to happen one day.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

j-ro said:


> Thanks Walt, makes sense to me.
> 
> What do you think about these uni-crowns from nova for a non giant?;
> NOVA CRMO 29ER UN-MITERED :: TUBES STEEL :: Nova Cycles Supply Inc.


 I ordered these fork legs and the corresponding dropouts and steer tube.
This combination will clear a three foot wheel and tire I'll post pics later 
as always my welding isnt even close to perfect but should work.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Uni-Crown*

WellI ordered some fork blades, dropouts and steer tube to try out a fork Im not happy with the welding on it but its together and it clears a clown wheel and tire.:madman::madman: so heres some pics.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

todwil said:


> WellI ordered some fork blades, dropouts and steer tube to try out a fork Im not happy with the welding on it but its together and it clears a clown wheel and tire.:madman::madman: so heres some pics.


Are you doing this with MIG?


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

crank up that heat! dropout weld looks ok though. just a little cleanup love


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## nova972 (May 18, 2009)

If it makes you feel any better, I'm now two years past my bi malleolal fracture, also right ankle but no surgery lucky for me. I was 2 months non weight bearing and got on a bike the day I put my feet back on the ground... Found that biking was one of the best forms of physio, just stay clear of the big drops for a while 

Good luck!


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

nova972 said:


> If it makes you feel any better, I'm now two years past my bi malleolal fracture, also right ankle but no surgery lucky for me. I was 2 months non weight bearing and got on a bike the day I put my feet back on the ground... Found that biking was one of the best forms of physio, just stay clear of the big drops for a while
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks, I plan to try to go back on a bike in a couple of weeks !


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

febikes said:


> Are you doing this with MIG?


 Yep same welder I used to make Payaso..


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

Walt (from FAQ) said:


> Can I use my MIG welder to make a bike frame?
> No.
> 
> Don't believe me? No problem. Go for it, and come back and post your success story. I'll be happy to eat crow.


Looks like Walt's Thanksgiving bird is going to be a little dry.

Forks are serious stuff....be careful and make sure you test the welds. My guess is that good MIG joints are better then poor application of TIG, Brazing, Lugs, etc. I have never run a MIG... The welds look a bit "cold" but at the end of the day it is a metal-to-metal connection; my guess is that they will hold fairly well and hopefully give some warning before failure but really you may want to do destructive testing on a fork or ten with testing before you ride down a mountain. On the other hand there is a reason NHRA rules state that Chrome-moly tubing can only be TIG welded.


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## Meriwether (Jul 26, 2007)

todwil said:


> Yep same welder I used to make Payaso..


I thought you were joking...those are using MIG...? Those welds are impressive..seriously! :thumbsup: I learned to weld some years ago on MIG and have welded bumpers, snow plows, random stuff that is at MOST 1/8" thick...and I would never even consider welding thin tubing, let alone a bike frame, with my MIG. Nice work. I'd love to see a youtube of that some day...? Oh, and sweet kermit green 36er, that's rad.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Meriwether said:


> I thought you were joking...those are using MIG...? Those welds are impressive..seriously! :thumbsup: I learned to weld some years ago on MIG and have welded bumpers, snow plows, random stuff that is at MOST 1/8" thick...and I would never even consider welding thin tubing, let alone a bike frame, with my MIG. Nice work. I'd love to see a youtube of that some day...? Oh, and sweet kermit green 36er, that's rad.


 Thanx.....Yea all three of the Payasos are made with the MIG welder the welding isn't perfect but even if I used a TIG welder I would have similar result because I shake to 
Much so I have to steady my hands by resting them on something or the two handed torch hold....


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## flynfrog (Feb 4, 2011)

febikes said:


> Looks like Walt's Thanksgiving bird is going to be a little dry.
> 
> Forks are serious stuff....be careful and make sure you test the welds. My guess is that good MIG joints are better then poor application of TIG, Brazing, Lugs, etc. I have never run a MIG... The welds look a bit "cold" but at the end of the day it is a metal-to-metal connection; my guess is that they will hold fairly well and hopefully give some warning before failure but really you may want to do destructive testing on a fork or ten with testing before you ride down a mountain. On the other hand there is a reason NHRA rules state that Chrome-moly tubing can only be TIG welded.


In walts defense. these bikes are all strait gauge moly not exactly a double butted bike tube.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

flynfrog said:


> In walts defense. these bikes are all strait gauge moly not exactly a double butted bike tube.


 I probably can weld that also and Im going to try real soon and if it doesnt work I will
post that also.


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## flynfrog (Feb 4, 2011)

todwil said:


> I probably can weld that also and Im going to try real soon and if it doesnt work I will
> post that also.


I really dont see why you cant but you are also really good with a mig and welding in general. A newbie is not going to have that skill and wont know how to set up the welder will spend most of the time blowing holes.

On a side note sweet bikes there may be one for me in store soon.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*596 Miles*

Well PIII has 600 miles on it now and still going strong I had to respoke the rear wheel
at 500 miles (800 total PI and PIII) had to replace the rear cog I let the chain go to long 
and now on chain number 5. I swapped tires to try the nightriders these tires work
better but you have to cut them (5+ hours ) they also are a net weight savings of 2LBs
PIII weight 33.25LBs currently!


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## Brad Bedell (Apr 18, 2009)

5 chains? Wow! I broke a 10s chain last week. I had a link, but I suspect the chain is 'done' with as much as I've ridden it. I have a new chain, just haven't measured my current one to see where it is. 

Initially, I touched up spokes for the first 2 months I rode the bike, but after that they haven't needed any more. I stretched the spokes as much as I could after building the wheels; but they still settled in once ridden. 

You put Nightriders on front and back? Have any photos of your carvings? I like my Coker non skid on the front and Nightrider on the rear. I find it more predictable in the loose corners than the nightrider on the front.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Brad Bedell said:


> 5 chains? Wow! I broke a 10s chain last week. I had a link, but I suspect the chain is 'done' with as much as I've ridden it. I have a new chain, just haven't measured my current one to see where it is.
> 
> Initially, I touched up spokes for the first 2 months I rode the bike, but after that they haven't needed any more. I stretched the spokes as much as I could after building the wheels; but they still settled in once ridden.
> 
> You put Nightriders on front and back? Have any photos of your carvings? I like my Coker non skid on the front and Nightrider on the rear. I find it more predictable in the loose corners than the nightrider on the front.


 Yea I let the chains get about 75% and change $12.00 is cheaper than new cogs.
The local wheel nazi checked my back wheel for proper spoke tension and said I had
them to tight so Im sure thats the reason for the new one's so soon plus the fact that
there 3 feet long.I never rode the NR's uncut so I dont know how they worked stock but
I like them better than cokers lots of traction!!


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## TLKD (Mar 29, 2010)

When will we see pics of P4 !!!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Soon I hope Im having a hell'of a time getting my chubby fat fingers on a AMP fork
the wheels are in the trueing stand as we speak all the tubing is bent up but I reeeeeaally
need the fork to get the right axle to clown.....a..I mean...crown height but the plan is
a front suspended 1x10 geared, with even shorter chain stays if I can fit the tire. The seat 
tube has tighter radius.


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

todwil said:


> Soon I hope Im having a hell'of a time getting my chubby fat fingers on a AMP fork
> the wheels are in the trueing stand as we speak all the tubing is bent up but I reeeeeaally
> need the fork to get the right axle to clown.....a..I mean...crown height but the plan is
> a front susended 1x10 geared, with even shorter chain stays if I can fit the tire. The seat
> tube has tighter radius.


Inverted fork?
marzocchi?
there's a tread somewhere of a guy who put a 36" wheel + inverted marzocchi fork on a mountain bike...
Mbeardsl might chime in to link it, I'm incapable of finding the link...


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

How about a Girvin fork. I have an old Elite looking for a good home......

Tim


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

davidfrench said:


> Inverted fork?
> marzocchi?
> there's a tread somewhere of a guy who put a 36" wheel + inverted marzocchi fork on a mountain bike...
> Mbeardsl might chime in to link it, I'm incapable of finding the link...





TimT said:


> How about a Girvin fork. I have an old Elite looking for a good home......
> 
> Tim


 Thanks guys but I was wanting the Amp F1 because of the steel fork legs I think I can
modify it for length as well as rake to make it work...so if anybody has one and doesnt
need it, It wont be thrown it away it will get repurposed!!!


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

todwil said:


> Soon I hope Im having a hell'of a time getting my chubby fat fingers on a AMP fork
> the wheels are in the trueing stand as we speak all the tubing is bent up but I reeeeeaally
> need the fork to get the right axle to clown.....a..I mean...crown height but the plan is
> a front suspended 1x10 geared, with even shorter chain stays if I can fit the tire. The seat
> tube has tighter radius.


found:
http://forums.mtbr.com/8573061-post20.html


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

EDIT: sorry double post


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Warning this may not be suitable for some veiwers*

FAILURE:

While cleaning up my bike I found a crack at the ST\SS. Im going to repair it but havent quite decided how.


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Due to MIG or something else?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Maybe but I have a couple of Jamis 29ers that are broken in the same place. Im thinking its my 302lb slender structure!!


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

Bikes are tools and made to be used (and abused sometimes)!
:thumbsup:


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

todwil said:


> Maybe but I have a couple of Jamis 29ers that are broken in the same place. Im thinking its my 302lb slender structure!!


Hmmm...

And I thought I was packin! Given your "dainty" proportions, I have a theory. This is a compression fracture. While it may be a partial result of the tubing becoming brittle from the MIG welding process, my guess is that your weight is compressing the SS and actually twisting this joint counter-clockwise and causing the break inside the tube. You've got a really tight tire clearance there with your current geo, but it would be really interesting to see if a bridge would mitigate this, and would it then break somewhere else in that tube chain?

I believe this is my first time coming into one of your threads, so I'll mention that these are cool projects by the way.


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## Brad Bedell (Apr 18, 2009)

what is actually cracked? The seat tube or the weld? 

I'd agree on the compression factor. With the bends, that seat stay will tend to bow 'out'. At your weight, you're likely to put down some serious torque on the pedals. Especially with a single speed. 

If a bridge isn't an option, you could sleeve the seat tube so that it's thicker and spread the welding out over an extra layer to help reduce over-heating.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

The crack is right next to the weld I think Im going to add a modified bridge that 
attaches to the ST and SS....O and I'll weld the crack!! On P4 I will be putting a sleeve 
and a bridge.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Brad Bedell said:


> At your weight, you're likely to put down some serious torque on the pedals. Especially with a single speed.


Yeh...

I like this. You're also right dominant, aren't you? Did your other frames break on the right?

A simple formed/shaped sheetmetal bridge bringing the SSs and ST together as one unit would likely solve the problem.


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

At the end of the day it's just metal and you are stronger the metal.

Lots of the bikes I see at Walmart and similar places are MIG welded so it should be possible to MIG weld hobby bikes as well.

One thing that comes to mind for me in your case is 4130 vs. DOM (i.e. 1020). The motor sports guys are constantly talking about this in the context of MIG vs. TIG.
DOM vs 4130 tubing - OFN Forums

My understanding is that for motor sport racing they require TIG if the roll cage is 4130 but allow MIG if the cage is 1020. The 4130 is stronger but it is also thinner walled tubing and the 1020 stuff is weaker but it is thicker walled tubing. It could be that a MIG bike made out of 1020 and thicker walls would work better because it would be more likely to flex and bend rather then crack. This is a theory from someone who does not know much about MIG but you may want to do some more research and ask the guys at weldingweb.com forum or a similar place. The of motorsports guys know tons about welding MIG vs. TIG and the associated wires, pre/post processes, etc.

I have also seen many cases where lighter CroMo frames would crack in crashes while the cheaper and heavier department store steel bikes would usually bend. The idea of "stronger" in metals is not always what we think because for an art/clown bike it might be better that the bike simply bend rather then come apart and thick/heavy tubes might not be a big deal. You are a pioneer of a new hobby segment with MIG bikes. I especially think that with 36ers big thick tubes are the way to go and once they get thick enough they become very MIG friendly plus strong and really it only adds a little bit more to an already heavy bike so as a percentage a bit more in the frame is no big deal.

Great work on the bikes and it's fun to see them progress. I am sure P4 will be awesome!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Yesterday I started stripping the pirty green powder off of the frame and I found a peice 
3/4 .058 but not enough to put in my bender so I may have to weld it to some 035
to get a little radius to it hopefully I have this repaired for the weekend. or I may have 
put P1 back into service.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

What Mark is circling around is the concept of strength -vs toughness. In this context, strength is the ability to resist deformation to a very high degree, where toughness is the ability to withstand failure to a high degree. You have either but not both in 1018 and 4130 steels, in relative terms. Liken 1018 to a rubber hose, and 4130 to a glass tube. The former will bend and twist six ways from Sunday, where the latter will not. The former will not resist much of any stress at all in compression, axial, or radial loading but will be very difficult to push to failure. The latter has a tremendous amount of resistance to any deformation relative to the rubber, but will fail catastrophically at some point. Choose materials accordingly.

It is also a well known fact that ChroMo does not like MIG welding, where it is perfectly acceptable for mild steel. That is a factor here, you can bet on it. The very rapid and intense heating of the metal in the MIG process "shocks" the structure of the molecules in 4130, and causes crystallization and resulting brittleness. You will need to reach a similar heat range with TIG, but the onset of this heat is much smoother, like torch welding, has a much reduced HAZ if done correctly, and does not shock the metal as greatly. To some extent 4130 will "normalize" over time, and this allows the softer TIG process to be successful where MIG is so "violent" and the "damage" to the molecular structure so extreme that it will not reach any state of acceptable normalization again without heat treating. ChroMo can be stress relieved or heat treated to normalize it fully (like 6061 Alum.). The former is quite possible given proper technique. The latter is not without a high degree of scientific method.

This is one of those topics that is very well known and ubiquitous, and yet remains shrouded in mystery and confusion, somehow. M is for MIG, and Mild steel. T is for TIG, and... well.. Don't MIG ChroMo!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Here is a couple of pics of my old Jamis Exile 9er that broke exactly the same way
and one of the brake bridge I had to weld a couple pieces together to get the bend 
in the one Im using. I think that Brad is correct it just twisting the seat tube. The seat
tube on my first bike is .065 and ST's are .049 or .058 I cant remember on this one
the seat tube is .035 until the top three inches then its .065 and ST's are .035.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Here is the start of the repair.:thumbsup:


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

Here it is welded in hope this holds!!!


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

I think you have proven yourself more than worthy of a TIG welder, my friend. It's time.


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> I think you have proven yourself more than worthy of a TIG welder, my friend. It's time.


I went and looked at a couple TIG welders has anyone used the Miller Diversion 180?


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## RCP FAB (Jun 15, 2011)

todwil said:


> I went and looked at a couple TIG welders has anyone used the Miller Diversion 180?


Same inverter technology as the dynasty, you loose low amps (diversion only goes down to 10a) and no pulse. And of course all the aluminum adjustments, but yes, its my main machine.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

Get the best machine you can afford, of course. I "only" have a Miller Synchrowave 180SD, and it has been just fine for me while I learned to TIG. It certainly doesn't have all the bells & whistles of the newer machines, but it is still more capable than most of the people using it, including me!


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

davidfrench said:


> Bikes are tools and made to be used (and abused sometimes)!
> :thumbsup:


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Oh boy, you could slam dunk from that height!


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## davidfrench (Jan 25, 2011)

I used to be able to, when younger and training 2 times a week (without bicycle I mean)!


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## febikes (Jan 28, 2011)

todwil said:


> Here it is welded in hope this holds!!!
> 
> View attachment 694266


Did you clean to bare metal or did you weld through the paint?


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

febikes said:


> Did you clean to bare metal or did you weld through the paint?


Powder free weld area!!


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## todwil (Feb 1, 2007)

*Payaso lll 2.0*

Got Payaso repowdered.


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## mbeardsl (Sep 9, 2009)

Looks good Todd!


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