# winter tire set up



## JUNGLEKID5 (May 1, 2006)

It official winter has set in on us in mass. So I set up a set of winter commuter tires and took them for there test ride tonight. The front held up great and when I came back inside the rear was flat. Time to investigate what happened.


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

Screws for ice aside, is that inverted tread design good on slush and snow?


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## BrianMc (Jan 5, 2010)

^^ Yes. I hauled a laser printer on about 2 inches of squirmy snow over snow pack with my Michelin City tires on my errand bike 2 winters ago. Not as good as the studded snows which have a bit more knobby tread but surprisingly good. I used 700-35 then, now it has 700-38 Michelin City Tires.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I have Serfas Drifters with the inverted design...bigger 'holes' in them than the ones pictured... and they do pretty well in the slop. They do better than my Big Apples did.


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## JUNGLEKID5 (May 1, 2006)

They were tires that I had hanging out. So I figuerd I would try it out. What tires does every one use?


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## Gritter (Dec 21, 2010)

XJaredX said:


> Screws for ice aside, is that inverted tread design good on slush and snow?


My Maxxis Hookworm's inverted tread had me feeling a lot more secure than I should, but their fatness has to push a lot of heavy slush out of the way. I've only been using them because I don't have anything else yet. My studded tires are on some UPS truck somewhere as I ordered them a bit too late. I managed to grab the last two 45NRTH Gravdals they had and I notice a lot of studded tires are sold out. I have never ridden on studs before, and I'm really excited about the traction and the thinner width. The paths around here are ice-rutted with frozen footprints about 2-3 inches thick, from tons of freezing rain, slush, and snowfall. This will be my first winter being able to ride in whatever conditions. Winter seems to have come early this year, and we've been getting a lot of snow. It's not even December 21st yet, the first day of winter, winter solstice, or whatever.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I wonder if the length of your studs is a factor in your flat. If you think about it, ice on pavement USUALLY isn't super thick. especially black ice, which is the biggest danger for a bike. For other types, careful riding usually will keep you upright. With long spikes like that, you're going to push the head of the spike into your tube. I'd dremel the tips off, at least. If you look at the studded tires on the market, the studs don't protrude much from the tire tread. Just enough to grip onto the ice, not dig through it to the pavement.

Putting spikes like that onto a mtb for trail use isn't such a big deal, since the trail is not as hard as pavement. Though I've never felt I needed studs on the trail, anyway.


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## JUNGLEKID5 (May 1, 2006)

I am hoping that they will wear in..


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## Gritter (Dec 21, 2010)

My 45NRTH Gravdal studded tires arrived this afternoon. I was too excited to wait, they went on easier than any other tire I've ever mounted, and I've mounted a lot. I thought it was the wrong size, both beads just slid over my 25mm Alex rim like hot butter.  I was worried they might blow off the bead, but I've had no such issues.

The tires felt nice. I don't know if they're made by "Innova" or not, but they just feel really nice to the touch of my hand. The studs are arranged in a cool "V" shape and they have convex heads. The shoulders of the little studs are sharp, as I scratched my arm and it took some skin with it. 

I first tried the frozen rutted bike path and it was scary, but it worked amazingly. There's about 3 or 4 inches of snow on top of ice, so the 38mm width of these tires had to dig pretty deep to get traction on the slippery ice. The only times it was scary was when I got caught in the ruts of other bicycles. My front tire had to "hop" out of these ruts and it felt like crossing railroad tracks the wrong way with skinny tires and getting your wheel stuck. Once I got used to the technique, I found that grabbing the bars tight, and just man-handling that front tire and forcing it to go where I wanted was the best way to keep my balance. 

I never fell, and I got going pretty fast on the shoulder of a road, with icy spots along the shoulder and cars passing. Going about 30 mph down a hill and just charging into the icy sections with confidence that the car next to me wouldn't kill me (in the dark) was pretty exciting. Probably the biggest rush I've had in a long time, actually. 

Once I learned to just trust the studs, everything was great. I had to adjust to a new riding style, different than sand, or gravel, or wet grass or mud. It only took a few minutes to adjust. Being used to riding in the dirt and knowing what it feels like to slide around a bit was a big help. I think it might be a tougher transition if you've only ridden dry tarmac thus far. 

My first "ice ride" and a pedestrian even yelled at me that they couldn't believe I was riding a bicycle in the icy snow. I think they were amazed, but maybe I was just projecting that energy. 

It's supposed to warm up this week, but it feels good to be ready for whatever this winter brings. Aluminum frame, mostly sealed bearings, stainless fenders and racks, waterproof bags . . . I'm glad I didn't get a fat bike. I'm LOVING this thing.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ Nice Gritter!


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## Gritter (Dec 21, 2010)

mtbxplorer said:


> ^^ Nice Gritter!


Thanks, mtbxplorer! If 45NRTH's "Nicotine" tires are addictive, these Gravdals should have been named, "Heroin". I haven't been able to stay off this bike! The sound of the studs on icy tarmac sounds like a quiet version of MIG welding splatter, or maybe the sound of bacon frying - it's really cool (and all new to me)!

The little "new tire hairs" are tickling my stainless steel fenders while I "seat these studs" during the break-in period.










I tried plastic fenders with mudflaps first, but they quickly packed with snow. These stainless fenders are hardcore and the edge is sharp enough to just cut most of the snow off before it gets all up in there. (Neoprene sleeve for Kleen Kanteen helps keep water from freezing)










Keeps my drivetrain clean. (still need to wrap my chainstay too, but that "roller clutch / type 2" derailleur is supposed to eliminate chain slaps)


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## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

Schwalbe Marathon Winters on the wife's bike, and since we had probs with the beads on the Snow Studs I'm now running Kenda Klondikes.
Marathon Winters have very shallow tread depth, so for "black ice on street" use they're great. The Klondikes have a lot more "dig in and grunt" to them so for deeper snow they're better. 
Also- their studs seem closer to the centerline of the tire so they buzz a little more than the mw's.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

JUNGLEKID5 said:


> They were tires that I had hanging out. So I figuerd I would try it out. What tires does every one use?


Do you mean "which tires for DIY studding"? If so, almost every one I`ve seen has been with knobbies- more rubber to support the studs. I wish you luck with the ones you have, though. What you`re attempting (light duty studded for light duty ice) doesn`t seem to be available commercially in 559, in spite of the need for such a tire. Sure wish there was a 26 inch version of that Niccotine or the Nokian A10. I think Nate has a good point about the exposed stud length. They look too long to me, too. Have you ever checked out the DIY studs sticky in BFnet`s "Winter Biking" subforum? It`s been going for years with lots of examples and ideas.



byknuts said:


> Schwalbe Marathon Winters on the wife's bike, and since we had probs with the beads on the Snow Studs I'm now running Kenda Klondikes.
> Marathon Winters have very shallow tread depth, so for "black ice on street" use they're great. The Klondikes have a lot more "dig in and grunt" to them so for deeper snow they're better.
> Also- their studs seem closer to the centerline of the tire so they buzz a little more than the mw's.


Byknuts, it was Snow Studs tires that gave you so much trouble? Who makes those? FWIW, I have Marathon Winters, and they do grab well in many conditions, but IMO, they`re not ideal for that "black ice on street". Really hard to push, which I think comes from those incredibly stiff sidewalls. Very heavy too, but I think that`s a lesser evil than the danged sidewalls. Of course, with your wife`s stud muffin leg power, she probably doesn`t notice the extra drag that keeps trying to beat me into submision :lol:


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

NateHawk said:


> I wonder if the length of your studs is a factor in your flat.


That was my first thought as well. The only real reason you'd need studs that long is if you were running over massively rutted ice and they had to reach pretty far down to hit anything. On relatively flat ice, you just need a few mm to get a grip. Much more than that, and you'll start pushing the studs into the tire and causing a flat.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I like those Gravdal's. Where'd you get them? And which version? the 120tpi alu/carbide or the 27tpi steel/carbide version? They seem hard to find.


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

I've been kicking around getting the Gradval's, I was just going to have my LBS order them, put them on item watch if they aren't in stock at QBP... I can't decide though because like today for example, I rode my fatbike to work, which was perfect, and I encountered zero ice even though we've had multiple snows in the past week, today included.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

There's plentiful ice in my neck of the woods lately. Not so much in the roads, because they're salted and plowed well, and temps have been in the 20's (prime temps for salt to work). Parking lots, though, are REALLY messy with ice. That will change this week, though. After this evening's upcoming snowfall, temps will rise into the 50's and melt all this stuff off. Next weekend we'll have another cold system come through, though it's unclear yet whether it will bring snow or rain. I'm doing a full moon pub crawl ride tonight, and the results will determine whether I get a set of studs for the rest of the winter.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

rodar y rodar said:


> Do you mean "which tires for DIY studding"? If so, almost every one I`ve seen has been with knobbies- more rubber to support the studs. I wish you luck with the ones you have, though. What you`re attempting (light duty studded for light duty ice) doesn`t seem to be available commercially in 559, in spite of the need for such a tire. Sure wish there was a 26 inch version of that Niccotine or the Nokian A10. I think Nate has a good point about the exposed stud length. They look too long to me, too. Have you ever checked out the DIY studs sticky in BFnet`s "Winter Biking" subforum? It`s been going for years with lots of examples and ideas.
> 
> Byknuts, it was Snow Studs tires that gave you so much trouble? Who makes those? FWIW, I have Marathon Winters, and they do grab well in many conditions, but IMO, they`re not ideal for that "black ice on street". Really hard to push, which I think comes from those incredibly stiff sidewalls. Very heavy too, but I think that`s a lesser evil than the danged sidewalls. Of course, with your wife`s stud muffin leg power, she probably doesn`t notice the extra drag that keeps trying to beat me into submision :lol:


 Nokian makes great 26er studded tires for commuting. I run the mount and ground 26x1.95. They also make the hakkapelitta( sp) in 26 and 700c. I run hakka 700x35 on my other winter commuter.


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## ghettocruiser (Jun 21, 2008)

If conditions are even marginally wintery, I usually just go full-bore with the wide Schwalbe 379s tubeless at low pressure. Overkill for most non-bizzard road conditions, but it's only 10km to work, and this allows me the option of doing some winter trail riding on the way home.

If the roads are dry, the forecast is clear, I have a disk 700C wheelset with semi-slick CX tires that I can change to in a minute or so.

I used to have an third commuting wheelset with non-studded mountain bike tires as a middle-ground option, but used it rarely enough that it's been cannibalized for parts.


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## KentheKona (Jul 6, 2013)

How are the studded tires on clear pavement? That's the main reason I haven't gone studded, even though we have ice patches, its separated by large expanses of clear pavement.


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## scubaklook (Apr 20, 2005)

leeboh said:


> Nokian makes great 26er studded tires for commuting. I run the mount and ground 26x1.95. They also make the hakkapelitta( sp) in 26 and 700c. I run hakka 700x35 on my other winter commuter.


What do you think of the mount and grounds or the hakkas on snow? I have been running the marathon winters but they are really struggling on the compacted snow. I have spun out in a few areas especially if there is new snow on top of that. I have been wondering if something with a slightly more aggressive tread might work a little better. Do they do ok on road as well? My route is split between poorly plowed compacted snow with ice patches and better plowed roads (with ice patches and slop thrown in for good measure).

KentheKona- the marathon winters do really well on clear pavement, especially if you run them at the higher end of pressure. They are not as happy under snowier conditions though.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

KentheKona said:


> How are the studded tires on clear pavement? That's the main reason I haven't gone studded, even though we have ice patches, its separated by large expanses of clear pavement.


Studs work very well on asphalt or side walk concrete....

They have zero traction on poklished concrete or ceramic tile.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

scubaklook said:


> What do you think of the mount and grounds or the hakkas on snow? I have been running the marathon winters but they are really struggling on the compacted snow. I have spun out in a few areas especially if there is new snow on top of that. I have been wondering if something with a slightly more aggressive tread might work a little better. Do they do ok on road as well? My route is split between poorly plowed compacted snow with ice patches and better plowed roads (with ice patches and slop thrown in for good measure).


https://www.google.ca/search?q=fred...hp%3Fubb%3Dshowflat%26Number%3D664470;802;601

The one on the right is a Freddie Revenze studded tire....that is the type of tire that will get you through deeper snow, with softer packed snow beneath....

I run Nokian M&G if the snow is light and I want to cut through to a well consolidated layer....

If the snow is heavier and I want to float more I pick the Freddie Revenze


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## Volsung (Nov 24, 2011)

Good studded tires are a must have in Minneapolis. I'd never skimp on them because I'm terrified of sliding under a moving car. 

As a company I really dislike 45nrth, but I have a pair of their Xerxes and they're pretty damn nice on ice. Things have been especially awful this year so I'm using Dillingers on my Moonlander, which are good until they pick up so much snow that the studs can't reach the ice for traction.

Both are folding because life's too short for cheap bike tires.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

I hope David pipes in from Montreal, I don't recall the details of his DIY screw setup, but he seemed pretty happy with them. I had good luck with DIY, traction-wise using car studs (drill holes in knobbies and insert from inside tire), but eventually in everyday use a tube protector would shift enough for the stud flange to chafe the tube and cause a flat. I have a low tolerance for flats in winter, so I switched to the flat-free pre-fabs when they became available and I could afford them.


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

Volsung said:


> As a company I really dislike 45nrth.


I've heard a couple of people say this, but never why. Care to share?


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

XJaredX said:


> I've been kicking around getting the Gradval's, I was just going to have my LBS order them, put them on item watch if they aren't in stock at QBP... I can't decide though because like today for example, I rode my fatbike to work, which was perfect, and I encountered zero ice even though we've had multiple snows in the past week, today included.


After getting my FatBike, I put studded tires for my other bike on hold. The Pugsley with a studded Dillinger front will get me through the winter just fine; albeit 3-5mph slower. What fatbike did you end up with Jared? I missed it elsewhere...


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## Volsung (Nov 24, 2011)

evandy said:


> I've heard a couple of people say this, but never why. Care to share?


i made a post over in the fat bike forum about Fasterkatt durability issues and they responded with a condescending blog post with pictures on how to use a zipper. That's the main thing, but they also do stuff like brag about how Xerxes has the most studs of any 700x30c tire. It's the ONLY 700x30c studded tire.

They rebrand stuff and then jack up the price over the original too. Look at Innova steel studded tires and then Arcwelders. $20 difference on Amazon. It's shady to treat customers like that imo


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Okay, after my ride last night, I'm unsure about studs. A short part of the ride was really sketchy because of rutted ice on bits of a MUP I used. Most bike lanes were good, and all the roads I used were in great shape. Even on the sketchy rutted ice, I stayed upright on my 700x38 Specialized Crossroad tires. A short segment of my route had packed snow, and I had no trouble whatsoever there. No issues with packing in my fenders - everything cleared out really well.

I'm definitely going to be doing more winter riding. There's a winter group ride this Sunday night, another ride organized by the mayor on Jan 4th, and the ride I did last night happens on the full moon every month. I don't have a job to commute to just yet, but I've submitted resumes for a couple that will be hiring in the beginning of January, and both would be a really good bike commute distance. So if either of those happens, I'll definitely be doing some regular winter commuting.

So I'm conflicted about studs. I could buy them anyway and put them on the bike, whether I "need" them or not, they'll be there for the winter. I'm leaning towards this option, because this winter has been snowy early and quite probably will stay this way for awhile. Or, I could save the money and hold off until I really do need them.


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## scubaklook (Apr 20, 2005)

Hey Nate If you want a winter tire and dont want to go the studded route look into something like the Conti Top Contact Winter. I have them on my secondary winter bike and have had good luck with them so far. They seem to be an ok compromise.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

scubaklook said:


> Hey Nate If you want a winter tire and dont want to go the studded route look into something like the Conti Top Contact Winter. I have them on my secondary winter bike and have had good luck with them so far. They seem to be an ok compromise.


Those don't look like they'd be THAT much different from what I have on already. Only real difference being the rubber compound









This is what I have now

Specialized Bicycle Components

I'm not sure how much difference I'd perceive between the two, to be honest. At least with studs, I know what kinds of improvements I'd get.


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## Gritter (Dec 21, 2010)

Studded tires


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

NateHawk said:


> So I'm conflicted about studs. I could buy them anyway and put them on the bike, whether I "need" them or not, they'll be there for the winter. I'm leaning towards this option, because this winter has been snowy early and quite probably will stay this way for awhile. Or, I could save the money and hold off until I really do need them.


Most people do the hold off thing....then they go down hard and fast on an icy patch....then they get studs....and swear by them.


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## Volsung (Nov 24, 2011)

Gritter said:


> Yeah, I keep hearing my new 45NRTH Gravdals are glorified, overpriced Innova tires. I'm happy with their performance, although they're the loosest fitting tire I've ever mounted in my life. They look nice, and feel nice.


The Gravdals, Xerxes, Dillingers, and Nicotines are all their designs and seem to be fine. It was their first generation tires that were rebranded garbage.

And Natehawk- If you air up Xerxes to 60psi or so the studs probably won't come in contact with the ground unless you're turning or slipping. If you wake up to freezing rain, air em down to 30 and ride on. They're very comforting to have.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I could only afford one pair of studded tires, and I wanted to be able to ride anything, either on the mountain bike or the commuter... so I got the Nokian Extremes. They are incredible. On dry pavement they sound like a pack of angry hornets dragging chains behind them. Rolling resistance = YES. But I swear I could ride up a telephone pole if I wanted to.


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## Gritter (Dec 21, 2010)

I might have read somewhere that 27 tpi is inherently better at resisting flats, and stays pliable in the cold better than the higher thread counts.


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## ghettocruiser (Jun 21, 2008)

jeffscott said:


> Studs work very well on asphalt or side walk concrete....
> 
> They have zero traction on polished concrete or ceramic tile.


This is correct, and may be an important point.

I was running studs in the front and a knobby in the back the other night, sprinted for a green light, spun out the back end, and ended up backwards, but upright. The front studs gave way more traction than the rear tire, even though there was no ice involved... just thick, loose snow on the road. I have a theory as to why that is.

Studded tires, at least the mountain bike type with 100's of studs per tire, create traction on pavement and concrete not by surface friction, but by the points of the studs settling into the little 'dimples' in the texture of the pavement. If there are no 'dimples' to speak of, like in say, a new indoor concrete parking garage ramp, then down we go.

Hence, the actual mechanism of traction is pretty different. When riding without snow and ice that disguise the effect, it takes some getting used to.

But the advantage to this in loose-snow-on-pavement conditions, (which kept me from going down on the road the other night) is that the spikes-in-dimples effect generates some traction long as the studs reach the pavement, as opposed to a rubber surface which needs an area, not a point, in contact with the pavement to generate the same traction.

If snow has been compressed by cars, but is not frozen to the road, a typical situation on a surface with road salt, the little pointy studs are still finding the pavement every now and then, even though all the tire rubber is being foiled by a thin greasy layer of snow.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

ghettocruiser said:


> But the advantage to this in loose-snow-on-pavement conditions, (which kept me from going down on the road the other night) is that the spikes-in-dimples effect generates some traction long as the studs reach the pavement, as opposed to a rubber surface which needs an area, not a point, in contact with the pavement to generate the same traction.
> 
> If snow has been compressed by cars, but is not frozen to the road, a typical situation on a surface with road salt, the little pointy studs are still finding the pavement every now and then, even though all the tire rubber is being foiled by a thin greasy layer of snow.


Has always seemed obvious to me.


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## ghettocruiser (Jun 21, 2008)

Notwithstanding my idiocy the other night, I'd still recommend a studded tire on the front wheel as a compromise, even though Peter White makes a very good argument against this.

I suggest this simply because a rear studded tire has a much greater impact on rolling resistance than a studded front tire(with more weight on it) and because I think in general, mountain bikers are more likely to shrug off the back wheel washing out than road riders or commuters.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

ghettocruiser said:


> Notwithstanding my idiocy the other night, I'd still recommend a studded tire on the front wheel as a compromise, even though Peter White makes a very good argument against this.
> 
> I suggest this simply because a rear studded tire has a much greater impact on rolling resistance than a studded front tire(with more weight on it) and because I think in general, mountain bikers are more likely to shrug off the back wheel washing out than road riders or commuters.


Maybe works a bit till you get to an icy hill


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## JUNGLEKID5 (May 1, 2006)

ok so I have trimmed the studs down so that they are almost flush with the tire now and it seems to be working way better. I may add some more studs as things go along.


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## ghettocruiser (Jun 21, 2008)

jeffscott said:


> Maybe works a bit till you get to an icy hill


Yes. But if your commute involved an icy hill, you wouldn't be pondering the need for studded tires on mtbr. There would be no doubt.

The problem comes when I leave the back studs off for whatever reason (speed, laziness, etc) and then go out and try to ride icy stuff the same way I ride with studs front and rear.

If you have studs front only, I think it's just a crash-prevention strategy that assumes you're riding in the same mindset as when you have no studded tires on.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

ghettocruiser said:


> Yes. But if your commute involved an icy hill, you wouldn't be pondering the need for studded tires on mtbr. There would be no doubt.
> 
> The problem comes when I leave the back studs off for whatever reason (speed, laziness, etc) and then go out and try to ride icy stuff the same way I ride with studs front and rear.
> 
> If you have studs front only, I think it's just a crash-prevention strategy that assumes you're riding in the same mindset as when you have no studded tires on.


Hard to beleive you wouldn't have overpasses and bridges etc that involve some up and down hill.....must be aweful flat where you are....geez even the middle of Saskatchewan has some relief.


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## ghettocruiser (Jun 21, 2008)

jeffscott said:


> Hard to beleive you wouldn't have overpasses and bridges etc that involve some up and down hill.....must be aweful flat where you are....geez even the middle of Saskatchewan has some relief.


Toronto salts everything into oblivion, especially hills, so the only way we'd have icy overpasses is during an actual freezing rain event. Which might happen this weekend. Otherwise, of all the winter riders I know around here, I'm actually the only one who uses studded tires regularly.


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## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

add me, my wife, and my daughter to people in TO who're on studded tires permanently right now. 
(daughter doesn't commute daily though.)

while we do have an absurd amount of salt, city is SLOOOOW at putting it down!


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Schwalbe Ice Spiker Pros, a bazilion carbide tipped studs (361) but aluminum base for saving weight, over 1/2 pound per tire.

I see Nokian spun off the bike tire division and they are now Suomi...
(from http://www.nokiantires.com/faq}:

How do I purchase Nokian bike tires? 
Nokian Tyres used to own and produce a bike tire under the same name but we divested the brand to Suomi Tyres- a Finnish bike tires company that is devoted entirely to making high quality bike tires for any kind of riding weather and trail conditions. Please refer to their website (SUOMI TYRES) to find authorized distributors in Canada and the USA and contact information for all of your bike tire questions.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

mtbxplorer said:


> Schwalbe Ice Spiker Pros, a bazilion carbide tipped studs (361) but aluminum base for saving weight, over 1/2 pound per tire.
> 
> I see Nokian spun off the bike tire division and they are now Suomi...
> (from http://www.nokiantires.com/faq}:
> ...


Studded Bicycle Tires

Others have found less costly places


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

NateHawk said:


> So I'm conflicted about studs. I could buy them anyway and put them on the bike, whether I "need" them or not, they'll be there for the winter.


I was saying in another thread that I was pleasantly surprised by how well my bigapples handle snow and ice...until you get melting. Dry snow and ice can be pretty rideable, but add water to the mix and things go downhill really fast.

So keep the spring melt in mind. It depends how long it lasts where you are - around here it's 3 weeks to a month of extremely unpredictable and variable riding conditions.


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## quax (Feb 21, 2009)

ghettocruiser said:


> even though Peter White makes a very good argument against this.


nonsense for many people including me. Probably 20 % of my 25 miles commute is icy. There I really appreciate the safety of a studded front tire. However, I still ride very carefully there. If my commute was 100% crossing a frozen lake I'd get front and rear studded.

Really depends on where you are riding. You can't generalize.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

leeboh said:


> Nokian makes great 26er studded tires for commuting. I run the mount and ground 26x1.95. They also make the hakkapelitta( sp) in 26 and 700c.


(^^This in response to my wishing for easier rolling inch studded 26 inchers)
I had Hakkamawhatchacallits in mind for combination of low (relative) price and hopefully low RR, but ran into a steal of a deal on the Marathon Winters before I ordered the others. I`ve heard some folks claim that Hakkas are the lowest resistance studded 26ers available and others (including peter White) suggest that the Schwalbes are lowest. Either way, I doubt there`s a huge difference there. If I ever wear out the Marathons, I`ll most likely replace them with Hakkas.



KentheKona said:


> How are the studded tires on clear pavement? That's the main reason I haven't gone studded, even though we have ice patches, its separated by large expanses of clear pavement.


I agree with the other folks who say they mostly still grip on hard surfaces. On the down side, the price you pay for studded tires doesn`t end with writing the check. They aren`t going to roll like summer slicks no matter what.



ghettocruiser said:


> Yes. But if your commute involved an icy hill, you wouldn't be pondering the need for studded tires on mtbr. There would be no doubt.


Nice answer 



jeffscott said:


> Most people do the hold off thing....then they go down hard and fast on an icy patch....then they get studs....and swear by them.


I had the standard Slippin N Slidin woes before studs. Bought studs and love them compared to non-studs on snow and ice, but can`t say as I swear by them. I don`t love that feeling of towing a Winnebago behind me, and now torture myself on iffy days, trying to decide whether to deal with them or not. Sometimes I choose wrong- the hardest I have ever gone down on ice was riding slicks while my studs were mounted up at home.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

mtbxplorer said:


> I see Nokian spun off the bike tire division and they are now Suomi...
> (from http://www.nokiantires.com/faq}:


I found that, and have seen them listed as "Nokian Suomi"

SUOMI TYRES
Amazon.com: Nokian Suomi Hakkapeliitta Tire 700 x 40 240 Steel Studs: Sports & Outdoors
Nokian Suomi Hakkapeliitta A10 Studded Road Tire at BikeTiresDirect


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## Gritter (Dec 21, 2010)

*< 72 hour update on 45NRTH Gravdal*

I figured these would at least be galvanized steel, but apparently they're not. The carbide isn't rusting, but the steel surrounds are, which is to be expected. I just assumed they'd be galvanized, like some of the cheaper Schwalbes. I mounted these up less than 72 hours ago, so at this rate, I don't think I'll get much more than one winter out of them before the carbide surrounds to crumble into powder. They sell aluminum replacements, but that would cost more than new tires.










Yeah, that's salt all over the place. I haven't been rinsing off my tires after each ride - too much of a hassle, and too cold.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

scubaklook said:


> What do you think of the mount and grounds or the hakkas on snow? I have been running the marathon winters but they are really struggling on the compacted snow. I have spun out in a few areas especially if there is new snow on top of that. I have been wondering if something with a slightly more aggressive tread might work a little better. Do they do ok on road as well? My route is split between poorly plowed compacted snow with ice patches and better plowed roads (with ice patches and slop thrown in for good measure).
> 
> KentheKona- the marathon winters do really well on clear pavement, especially if you run them at the higher end of pressure. They are not as happy under snowier conditions though.


 I use the 26 x 1.90 mount and grounds for the nastier commutes. It has a pretty aggresive tread pattern. The studs are set off of the center line. For bad conditions i run them at 30 psi and it flattens out the tire for better contact. For better conditions, i run them at 40 psi for a more rounder profile. It is a good all around tire. I pedal on plowed paths, rutted frozen paths and nasty car tracked stuff.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Gritter said:


> I figured these would at least be galvanized steel, but apparently they're not. They sell aluminum replacements, but that would cost more than new tires.


The stud material on mine I beleive is a low alloy ferritic stainless steel...something like 400 series material as far as I can tell (Nokian)...I have an old Scwable studded tire set (before they made a good studded tire) it also appears to be a low alloy 400 series material.

I have to agree with you though the powder appearance is not a good indication...

I would continue to ride them normally withou rinsing...the rate will likely slow down as a passivating layer forms...

Calgary is also a very salty city with NaCl, CaCl, and gravel....they salt very heavily to help melt and keep the snow from consolidating at temps below 0F....

My studs started with some rusting but are still intact after 11,000 winter kms. (nokians)


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

IMHO, running 1 studded tire up front is just not wise.Doesn't work for me
There is no advantage in this. 2 or nothing. YRMV


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## Gritter (Dec 21, 2010)

jeffscott said:


> The stud material on mine I beleive is a low alloy ferritic stainless steel...something like 400 series material as far as I can tell (Nokian)...I have an old Scwable studded tire set (before they made a good studded tire) it also appears to be a low alloy 400 series material.
> 
> I have to agree with you though the powder appearance is not a good indication...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the good advice and words of encouragement, jeffscott. I'm still a newb to ice-biking, so it's much appreciated. I plan on riding these until all the studs fall out, then riding them some more. My next set will be with fancy aluminum embedded carbide studs though, and I might go to a 2.35 width (on a different frame), after wrestling with these ruts I've been dealing with, although I do appreciate the speed and ability to cut through with these 38's.

Just got back from riding through a river of melting glaciers. Just a constant deep puddle with frozen (miniature) icebergs strewn about. (I'm talking about the bike path, with its melting footprints and tire ruts) I had a freaking blast. I stayed bone dry (as well as most of the bike) and had traction the whole time. I felt like I had super powers. I think studded tires just tied for 1st place with stainless fenders for the best things I've ever purchased for my bike.


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## ghettocruiser (Jun 21, 2008)

Gritter said:


> Yeah, that's salt all over the place. I haven't been rinsing off my tires after each ride - too much of a hassle, and too cold.


All steel-encased studs turn orange in the salt, my old Nokians and Scwalbes looked the same. No worries, IMO.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Gritter said:


> I plan on riding these until all the studs fall out, then riding them some more. My next set will be with fancy aluminum embedded carbide studs though, and I might go to a 2.35 width (on a different frame),


I have the M&G 1.9 inch wide with steel body studs and a pair of Freddie Revenz

2.35 inch with aluminum body studs...

The Freddie Revenz are awesome tires and weigh about the same as the M&Gs

They however wear way faster than the M&Gs....both rubber and studs.

I alos have one schwalle studded tire older and not very good).

On all three studded tires the rubber will wear out first resulting in the studs beginning to fall out....you can replace the studs but the holes are just too big to hold the studs so the replacements just fall out....

I have no idea why Nokian stopped producing the FR...but I ride mine only when neccessary to extend the life....sure hope the start producing them again....and maybe in a 2.4 inch width for the front (2.35 is just about the limit for the rear on my frame.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

ghettocruiser said:


> All steel-encased studs turn orange in the salt, my old Nokians and Scwalbes looked the same. No worries, IMO.


Yup, mine too. They seem to rust instantly, but keep going for years and years.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

So just yesterday I learned that 45nrth is making a new studded 29x2.35 tire called the nicotine.










I hope my icespikerpros will last me at least this winter and the next, but I'm thinking this might be an option for a replacement. It's probably bigger than the 2.25 icespikers, and it has to be bigger than the 2.1 nokian extreme. But it has 222 studs which is way less than either schwalbe or nokian (although I think studcount might be a bit overrated).

But I really do like the idea of a directional tread. I swear my icespikers would ride better with a directional tread, at least on the rear.

It also brags about:



> Using the same two-piece construction method as the standard carbide-aluminum product, this stud features a carbide tip with a concave shape on the crown. The concave crown creates a very sharp attack angle to the surface, resulting in an unparalleled amount of traction. Any wear that occurs to the carbide crown creates an even sharper edge - continuously augmenting acceleration, braking and cornering performance as it ages.


And that sounds like a great idea...but it also sounds like a bit of bunk. I figure that even carbide won't be concave for long before it's rounded down.

I'll be watching for reviews.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Gritter said:


> I figured these would at least be galvanized steel, but apparently they're not. The carbide isn't rusting, but the steel surrounds are, which is to be expected. I just assumed they'd be galvanized, like some of the cheaper Schwalbes. I mounted these up less than 72 hours ago, so at this rate, I don't think I'll get much more than one winter out of them before the carbide surrounds to crumble into powder. They sell aluminum replacements, but that would cost more than new tires.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worry about that rust either...when I did DIY with a box of car tire studs, they did the same thing, and most cars see a lot more miles than bikes..


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

newfangled said:


> So just yesterday I learned that 45nrth is making a new studded 29x2.35 tire.
> I hope my icespikerpros will last me at least this winter and the next, but I'm thinking this might be an option for a replacement. It's probably bigger than the 2.25 icespikers, and it has to be bigger than the 2.1 nokian extreme. But it has 222 studs which is way less than either schwalbe or nokian (although I think studcount might be a bit overrated).


This is the closest tire to the Freddie Revenz....Aluminum Studs big fat casing and a squared off tread to increase contact....likely a very good tire...

On the other had aluminum/carbide stud wears faster than a alloy/carbide stud, cause the aluminium body loses more metal as it wiggles back and forth in the tire eventually falling out sooner.

The tread pattern is more closed than the Freddie and reminds me of a nevegal not a bad tread but likely a little slippier in carsnot and heavier snow...

Folding bead will help reduce weight I would like to see the weight come in less than 1000 grams (Freddie is 750 about if I remember).

Sipes are good but likely will just increase wear, and reduce life...

I agree the high stud count is not a huge issue....I like to see 4 rows about an 1.5 spacing so that would mean on a 29 x 2.35 tire (29+2.35*2)*3.14/1.5*4=280 studs required so at 220 studs that seems close enough....

The cupped studs will likely last longer than anyone thinks, but wil certaily wear to flat and then pointed...I think this tire is designed more for performance than life....probalby the first 2500 km will be really really good then just really good...course they still need the right rubber compound and pliability...if they stay with a performance goal then they would have a very supple casing with a very soft rubber so again short life.

I would definately buy the tire.....but I ride a 26 inch bike...oh well.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

mtbxplorer said:


> I wouldn't worry about that rust either...when I did DIY with a box of car tire studs, they did the same thing, and most cars see a lot more miles than bikes..


I did some reading a lot of studs are made with a zinc coating....a zinc coating is soft and easily worn....I suspect that what the orange "fluff" is is the zinc coating coming off with a bit of steel as well....

My old M&G 11000 km have essentially no rust at all so whatever zinc there once was is gone....and I just can't beleive that "normal carbon steel" would still be there at all...Hence I believe that there is some alloying in the steel stud body.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

jeffscott said:


> The cupped studs will likely last longer than anyone thinks, but wil certaily wear to flat and then pointed...I think this tire is designed more for performance than life....probalby the first 2500 km will be really really good then just really good...course they still need the right rubber compound and pliability...if the stay with a performance goal then they would have a very supple casing with a very soft rubber so again short life.


I was looking at my icespikers this morning, and thinking a bit more about the idea of concave studs. Centerline studs would be worn pretty quickly, but the nicotine (wisely) doesn't have any of those. The outer studs probably would stay concave for a very long time. And the middle ones would wear like you're saying for 2500km or 5000km. So it might actually work.

And I'm intrigued by the Nevegal-style (I would have said Ardent-style) tread.

Since I do ride 29 I'll definitely be following them.


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## -Todd- (Jun 13, 2011)

Just mounted up a set of Nicotines, can't wait for the first ride....


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## Gritter (Dec 21, 2010)

newfangled said:


> I was looking at my icespikers this morning, and thinking a bit more about the idea of concave studs. Centerline studs would be worn pretty quickly, but the nicotine (wisely) doesn't have any of those. The outer studs probably would stay concave for a very long time. And the middle ones would wear like you're saying for 2500km or 5000km. So it might actually work.
> 
> And I'm intrigued by the Nevegal-style (I would have said Ardent-style) tread.
> 
> Since I do ride 29 I'll definitely be following them.


What fenders will work with fatty studded tires? I only have polycarbonate (flexible plastic) with rubber mud-flaps, and snow quickly built up inside and pedaling through the extra resistance quickly brought the scent of burning tread to my nose. Frozen, cold ice was actually melting the rubber, which I thought was crazy. It's harder to get all that built up road sludge out between the fender and tire when it melts from the friction of the tire, and quickly re-freezes into ice.

For commuting, a lot of the sludge is slushy, from road salt and car heat, which really gets nasty and running without mud-guards would make me cold from being soaked in frozen slush. I can't imagine going without fenders during these times.

I'm trudging up this thread, because all the studded tires were all sold out quickly last winter, and I barely got my cheaper, narrow gravdals. I want to early-bird it this year, while the pickings are good.

Are these fatter tires like the Nicotine and Ice-Spiker-Pros just for MTB? I think they'd be great in the perfect (clean) conditions, like in the woods away from pollution. No need for fenders if everything's frozen, nothing will be kicking up off the tires. The mud will be frozen too. Anybody commuting with fatty studded tires in the city? Or are these 29'er tires for singletrack and xc riding only (with the center studs on the Schwalbes)?

My skinny studded tires, with stainless fenders to "cut-off" the snow/sludge before it can get up in there, were great except for frozen ruts. I really wanted a lot more air volume and width, because I'd get trapped in frozen tire tracks, with not enough bite to ride out of them. Also, more cushion from fatter tires would make the rutted paths much less taxing. I guess I'll need to find some metal fenders . . . or maybe rig up some sort of "wiper/scraper" to attach where the mud-flaps live in the summer to my current floppy fenders. I should invent these winter fender attachments and become a billionaire.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Gritter said:


> What fenders will work with fatty studded tires? For commuting, a lot of the sludge is slushy, from road salt and car heat, which really gets nasty and running without mud-guards would make me cold from being soaked in frozen slush. I can't imagine going without fenders during these times.
> 
> Anybody commuting with fatty studded tires in the city? Or are these 29'er tires for singletrack and xc riding only (with the center studs on the Schwalbes)?
> 
> or maybe rig up some sort of "wiper/scraper" to attach where the mud-flaps live in the summer to my current floppy fenders. I should invent these winter fender attachments and become a billionaire.


I eventually gave up on the fenders for the same reasons...My spandex long tights work fairly well to keep my dry...and I go hard to stay warm...

Broke many a fender and pushed many before I gave up.....You see the really high "beaver tail fenders around here in winter....almost no full fenders.

I have some Freddie Revenze 2.35 inch tires with studs and they sure help in certain conditions, ice ruts, snow that won't quite consolidated under the narrower studs 1.95 inch.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

I do leave the fullfenders on my fixie in the winter, but they're mounted to fit a 2.35 in the summer, so when I switch to the 1.9 mount&ground there's lots of room.


__
https://flic.kr/p/iRgwRT
I don't know if they're doing much, but I haven't had any problems with stuff building up in there.

For my 29er with the actual big knobbies, I just run a mountain-style front fender, which at least keeps crap from being thrown up at my face.


__
https://flic.kr/p/izm9qM


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## Gritter (Dec 21, 2010)

Good call on the MTB type fenders. Might have to give those a try this year. Thanks for all the great advice.


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