# Trans Rider Faces Outcry



## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/spor...s-up-on-outcry-after-first-win-as-female.html


----------



## Sage of the Sage (Nov 10, 2011)

The science behind this is still rather fuzzy. Having a set testosterone limit is a good start, but it does nothing at all for the male genetic traits of higher muscle density and distribution compared to someone who is born female. It presents quite a conundrum to the governing bodies of the sport...

I’d be interested in the female point of view on this. I’m male, and far from a pro-racer, so I have no dog in this fight. That being said, I did find the article quite interesting from a medical standpoint, having been a paramedic for several years...


----------



## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

I think women's opinions will be far from uniform. My thinking is that it is awesome that there is a path for trans people to compete, as they have been excluded from so much for their whole life. They had to be really strong to get to this point in their life, and hopefully some controversy will not derail them. 

Beyond the physical questions you mention, I am really interested in the nurture side of the equation...how much does being raised a boy influence the psyche and success, and what does that say about our culture?


----------



## Sage of the Sage (Nov 10, 2011)

The nature vs nurture question is a good one. I’ll need to ponder that one for a bit.


----------



## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

mtbxplorer said:


> I think women's opinions will be far from uniform. My thinking is that it is awesome that there is a path for trans people to compete, as they have been excluded from so much for their whole life. They had to be really strong to get to this point in their life, and hopefully some controversy will not derail them.
> 
> Beyond the physical questions you mention, I am really interested in the nurture side of the equation...how much does being raised a boy influence the psyche and success, and what does that say about our culture?


There's another side: non-trans women have this self-preservation mentality that's ingrained. I don't think trans-women have that either. Maybe that's why Kate Weatherly is able to do what she can: more willing to take more risks as a trans-woman.

No proof, just ruminating. But there are differences if you're born female vs. trans-female.

Personally, I don't think men become trans-gender women to win races. There's too many other risks to take for just winning a race.


----------



## Sage of the Sage (Nov 10, 2011)

stripes said:


> There's another side: non-trans women have this self-preservation mentality that's ingrained. I don't think trans-women have that either. Maybe that's why Kate Weatherly is able to do what she can: more willing to take more risks as a trans-woman.
> 
> No proof, just ruminating. But there are differences if you're born female vs. trans-female.
> 
> Personally, I don't think men become trans-gender women to win races. There's too many other risks to take for just winning a race.


Agreed, especially regarding the last bit. Women in general are more risk averse than men are, so that could well make a difference.

Re: Nature vs Nurture- I don't particularly think that nurture has a whole lot to do with whether or not a woman will be successful. Many of the most successful people out there, both male and female, are self-driven individuals; a trait that is not really taught at home...


----------



## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field/


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I long ago gave up on the idea that normal humans, never exposed to anabolic steroids or other enhancements could ever compete in the NFL. Even among High School athletes, use approaches 20%, and that's very dangerous. 

In many ways, transgender people in sports is pretty "small potatoes" comparatively speaking. The numbers are, and will likely remain low. There's no practical way to differentiate between someone born male who genuinely identifies as, and is transitioning to female from a guy that is pretending to do so; and drugs/hormones are a part of the transition that is medically supervised for the sole purpose of transitioning rather than for athletic performance - in either direction.

The physical advantages that someone who has been a physiological male for 17 years has over lifelong females are usually significant for that individual, but at this juncture, is really irrelevant in the decision process. Who is going to tell someone what their gender is? That appears to no longer be feasible.


----------



## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

Who's gonna tell you what your gender is? Whoever reads the report that says "xx" or "xy". If you can be whatever you say you are, what's the point of having a women's division? Just have one division for everything. Let's see how he/she does then. I'm sorry, I've just seen too many instances where a dude decides to be a woman and all of a sudden starts kicking ass in sports after being a scrub as a male.


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

BmanInTheD said:


> Who's gonna tell you what your gender is? Whoever reads the report that says "xx" or "xy". If you can be whatever you say you are, what's the point of having a women's division? Just have one division for everything. Let's see how he/she does then. I'm sorry, I've just seen too many instances where a dude decides to be a woman and all of a sudden starts kicking ass in sports after being a scrub as a male.


Don't confuse my description of reality with what I would like reality to be.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I have no problem with someone that has body dysmorphia. I had a pretty good trans friend in college and found him, err her to be an honest and kind individual. 

Some people think they are a different race, some people think they are an animal, some don't like their own limbs, some think they are a different sex, and these are all signs of mental illness but does not make them bad people.

Until the time comes that medical science can figure out and possibly cure this illness, these people have every right to find happiness anyway that doesn't harm others, including surgical procedures. 

However, (trans women) men taking away opportunity from actual women in competition or otherwise is the very definition of harming others. The obvious conclusion is that if you are trans, you have to compete as a man. 

Pretty cut and dry. 

Lastly I'll add that John Hopkins was the premium sex change facility for decades and recently quit offering them. The reason was that a high % of people that undergo sex reassignment surgery, try to convert back, commit suicide, or experience a lot of regret. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ I'm hoping you are not intending to be offensive, but most of that is definitely wrong. Please take a few minutes and consider this information:

FAQs, Is being Transgender a Mental Disorder? http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

And this article about Johns Hopkins:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.64ffff290901

Thanks


----------



## DETarch (Feb 26, 2011)

BmanInTheD said:


> I'm sorry, I've just seen too many instances where a dude decides to be a woman and all of a sudden starts kicking ass in sports after being a scrub as a male.


Please provide examples of "too many instances" (aside from this ONE example in the article) where a trans person competed professionally in a sport and dominated. It's just not happening.

And if you think that folks are transitioning genders primarily as a way to compete in sports...well that's just a weird narrative you've created in your head.

Some reading for you: 
http://www.upworthy.com/the-next-ti...e-shouldn-t-get-to-play-sports-send-them-this

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sooshee (Jun 16, 2012)

I've raced against two trans women in Colorado, and I assume you they're NOT doing it just to "kick some ass in a sport." In fact, one finished DFL in every road race she enters.


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

mtbxplorer said:


> ^^ I'm hoping you are not intending to be offensive, but most of that is definitely wrong. Please take a few minutes and consider this information:
> 
> FAQs, Is being Transgender a Mental Disorder? http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx
> 
> ...


Yeah, common sense is a *****, and not PC enough for many these days. 
Like I said, I have nothing against them as human beings.

But if you think you are something you are not, clearly the brain is miswired.

Not their fault and I don't blame them for chasing their happiness. But not at the expense of (actual) women.

Take care.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## GRPABT1 (Oct 22, 2015)

Trans women are dominating women's sport in just about everything they enter lately. It's a total mockery.


----------



## BmanInTheD (Sep 19, 2014)

DETarch said:


> Please provide examples of "too many instances" (aside from this ONE example in the article) where a trans person competed professionally in a sport and dominated. It's just not happening.
> 
> And if you think that folks are transitioning genders primarily as a way to compete in sports...well that's just a weird narrative you've created in your head.
> 
> ...


Who said anything about just professional sports? Its happening at the high school and college level as well. Look for yourself, I'm not your info source.

I also didn't say they "transed" JUST to compete in sports. So keep your weird narratives to yourself, I don't have any. I have some common sense sprinkled with science and some politically incorrect, accurate thoughts in MY head.


----------



## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

My reaction to this is "You go, girl!"

There seems to be a concensus among a lot of the men posting here that trans women competing as women is hurting women's sport. How about some more actual (or trans) women chime in here? 

I don't think she's hurting women's sport... if anything she's going to push the envelope and other women will follow. She seems like she's trying really hard to be positive and accepted, and she's complying with all the regulations. She even said she'd give up competing if she feels as though she has an unfair advantage. 

As for the people who seems to think that thousands of men all over the place are subjecting themselves to this treatment and the mental anguish that goes with it just to compete against women in sports... I think you're full of it. If you actually read the article you'd see that the science behind whether trans athletes have an advantage is pretty inconclusive. 

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


----------



## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

BmanInTheD said:


> Who said anything about just professional sports? Its happening at the high school and college level as well. Look for yourself, I'm not your info source.
> 
> I also didn't say they "transed" JUST to compete in sports. So keep your weird narratives to yourself, I don't have any. I have some common sense sprinkled with science and some politically incorrect, accurate thoughts in MY head.


You made the claim, so you have to substantiate it. That's just how facts work.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I assume if the belief is that a trans athlete can compete against women, then Rachel Dolezal can compete against real African Americans for College Scholarships and so on?

Let's at least be consistent after all.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Suns_PSD said:


> I assume if the belief is that a trans athlete can compete against women, then Rachel Dolezal can compete against real African Americans for College Scholarships and so on?
> 
> Let's at least be consistent after all.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Yes. All you have to do is "identify" as something. What, you think that could complicate things? Shame on you.
I'm just here to watch Michael Jackson eat popcorn, I'm too old to have a dog in this fight.


----------



## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

there needs to be an additional 2 trans category if trans wants to compete

-woman trans to man
-man trans to woman

right now there is mens, womens, no gray area

and for all the biological reasons. competition is unfair if you only have mens/womens
and you allow trans to compete for awards.


----------



## str8edgMTBMXer (Apr 15, 2015)

or why have categories for gender at all....everyone just races. Whoever is the first over the line wins, regardless of their physical make up?

growing up waaayyyy back in the 70's, I always remember girls and boys playing the same sports together other than football. Hell, girls didn't even play softball back then. We were all playing baseball together until HS. 

right now, in my hockey league, there are quite a few teams with both genders out there...there are MANY girls who destroy me on the ice. 

I say let 'em all go at it, regardless of what they identify with


----------



## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> I assume if the belief is that a trans athlete can compete against women, then Rachel Dolezal can compete against real African Americans for College Scholarships and so on?
> 
> Let's at least be consistent after all.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Oh look! Whataboutery!

These are not the same thing at all... try reading the science. Just saying you 'identify' as x, y or z and leaving it at that is in no way the same as having medical treatment to change your body.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk


----------



## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> I assume if the belief is that a trans athlete can compete against women, then Rachel Dolezal can compete against real African Americans for College Scholarships and so on?
> 
> Let's at least be consistent after all.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Scholarships aren't, can't be, racially exclusive...because that would be discriminatory.

I'm just pointing this out for others because you appear to be a garbage person who wouldn't/couldn't acknowledge that your bigotry is wrong.

It's not cute, it's not endearing, you're just an ass.


----------



## DeadGrandpa (Aug 17, 2016)

richde said:


> Scholarships aren't, can't be, racially exclusive...because that would be discriminatory.
> 
> I'm just pointing this out for others because you appear to be a garbage person who wouldn't/couldn't acknowledge that your bigotry is wrong.
> 
> It's not cute, it's not endearing, you're just an ass.


But, um... I thought that there are scholarships available specifically for African Americans, along the lines of Affirmative Action.

I might be wrong about that. And please excuse my presence and post here in the WL. I don't mean to offend. I'm not a racer or a racist bigot; I just like to read and understand something about the culture on this planet. Life is complicated here. I don't frequent the Women's Lounge, but I do peruse the "New Posts" for interesting threads.

P.S. The punctuation, spelling and grammar is much better here than in much of the rest of the forum. I don't think that's a coincidence.


----------

