# Garmin:"Vista hcx is not really for mountain biking"



## hesher (Apr 25, 2009)

Hi,

I called Garmin to ask for assistance with my Vista HCX which shuts down every couple of minutes on a mountain bike ride. 
The guy on the other side said that he had heard of this issue "once or twice" (yeah, right) and that these units are just not meant for mountain biking but mainly for walking.

Am I wrong to feel like i've been mislead into buying this unit? Shouldn't Garmin warn about this before buying these units?

Had to spill some frustration here.

Thanks..


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Well, when the whole etrex line was released in the early 2000's, it wasn't even a thought that they'd be used mountain biking. Eventually, people started using them for that purpose because they've been some of the smallest receivers out there for a long time. Then Garmin released a handlebar mount for it, which kinda sucked, but placated the masses for awhile.

Now they have receivers designed with mountain biking in mind. So the guy is being honest when he says that the etrex receivers were not built for mountain biking. But in a way, Garmin encouraged people to use their handheld receivers for that purpose by providing handlebar mounts for them. That they have mtb-intended receivers now doesn't matter.

Besides, Garmin has never provided a fix that PREVENTED this issue. They'd fix 'em if they broke, but the real preventive fixes are all DIY operations. There are details about them all over the web. Basically it involves soldering a couple wires and you're done.


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

+1.

This said, I've been happy with my Vista since I've had it (for about 2 years). I had the same intermittent power-off issue with my first unit at the end of last summer, and since it was still covered under warranty I just had Garmin replace it. If the new unit develops the same problem I'll do a DIY fix.

Th


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## hesher (Apr 25, 2009)

Did Garmin USA replace the unit for you?
I talked to Garmin in Britain. I'm thinking one of three may have happened:
1. Garmin has decided to stop replacing units with this problem and say that it's not for mtb'ing.
2. The guy on the line didn't know of the replace policy.
3. The policy for Britain is different that it is in the States. 
I'll give Garmin U.S.A a call tonight. (My Tonight  )


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## eatdrinkride (Jun 15, 2005)

Loosing the battery connection is a common problem and well documented on the web. Search for DIY fixes if Garmin won't help out.

Things I'd ask though:

_1) "I was told by a Garmin rep that my unit is not made for mountain biking, but why do you make and sell bicycle handlebar mounts for my unit. Surely you intend me to use it on my mountain bike, no?"
2) "If my unit is not made for biking or other physical activities why is there no mention of that fact on the box, or in any liteature Garmin provides, or on the website? (You will have to verify this, I'm just assuming that there is not any mention)
3) "If this unit has a specific intended application, or if there are certain specific applications that this unit is NOT intended for use with, then why are you only telling consumers about that after the purchase is made?"._

Garmin's first defense at this point is probably to brush you aside and hope you just go away. A little push might get them to fix/replace your unit.


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## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

I dealt with Garmin Netherlands. The rep I spoke to said "just send it in" when I explained it had power-offs during road riding.

I assume that the UK falls under the same consumers goods warranty legislation that the rest of the EU does, so I think by law Garmin must provide 2 years of warranty. If they don't specifically state the warranty is void when the unit is used for MTBing, they must replace or fix it. Although it's a last resort, it's something you may want to point out. Also, the design flaw in the unit is so blindingly obvious you'd expect them to have either fixed it or issued some kind of warning. (Do check the warranty terms though - I've never actually read them...)

Garmin has been very good to me, and even in friends' odd cases I've seen them provide good customer support. Best of luck getting the Vista fixed!

Caveat: today seems to be bad spelling day. I've hope I've edited it all out now.....


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Looking at it another way, any nice piece of electronics, etrex, Ipod, etc, would be better off, and last longer, if it didn't have to endure repeated sessions of high vibration. Putting it in your pocket or pack greatly reduces the vibration it sees. 
I know that is not ideal, as you can't glance down at it whenever you want.


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## hesher (Apr 25, 2009)

smilinsteve said:


> Looking at it another way, any nice piece of electronics, etrex, Ipod, etc, would be better off, and last longer, if it didn't have to endure repeated sessions of high vibration. Putting it in your pocket or pack greatly reduces the vibration it sees.
> I know that is not ideal, as you can't glance down at it whenever you want.


I have to disagree with you on this.

If a piece of electronic was designed to be used under water or in extreme heat or on rugged terrain, it will work under these conditions, simply because it was designed to.

Even the Vista Hcx will work if you just solder a couple of contacts, but Garmin missed that in their design. They have no intention of fixing it or admitting it (And therefore saving people like me a lot of annoyance in buying this unit) but it is just that - a serious design flaw.

I cannot put the unit in my pocket since offroad navigation is delicate and I will loose my way every couple of minutes. Also, when riding offroad I may easily fall over because of the action of getting the unit out of my pocket (or stop every time, which is a greater pain).

I will probably in the end have to open the unit and DIM (do it myself  ) since Garmin is not being ok.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

If you look at the history of it, Garmin's overall philosophy on it makes sense. That power cutoff issue only happens on a mtb. And I'd even throw out the idea that it probably only happens on shorter-travel bikes. Since the eTrex line works fine in that respect for nearly every other activity, they chose to leave it as-is and design an entire line of receivers that are meant for mtb handlebar use. The eTrex can handle a little bit of that use, but for lots of it, a different receiver is called for. How often do you use it on your mtb?

What Garmin UK is telling you is an entirely different issue. Since folks in other countries haven't encountered this trouble, it sounds as if you need to talk to a supervisor or just a different CS rep. Take the issue up the food chain if you want Garmin to send you another GPS. But realize it will be built the same way.

While Garmin may have billed the eTrex line as a general-purpose outdoor receiver in the past and encouraged folks to use it on their mtb, they realized that a segment of people used it on their bikes. A subset of them had problems. You could say that the entire Edge and Forerunner lines are an answer to that problem.

Will the retailer you bought the receiver from not take care of you in this issue? There are retailers out there that will take the unit back regardless, going above and beyond the manufacturer's warranty. You may not get so much of a discount (or any discount at all), but you have peace of mind if an issue happens outside of your warranty or if you simply are dissatisfied with the item.

Do you want Garmin to issue an expensive recall or something?

Seriously you make it sound like riding on trails requires you to look at your GPS the whole time. I don't know your sense of direction, but I only use my GPS for navigation when I'm riding somewhere new. I primarily use the cyclecomputer and HRM functions otherwise for workout purposes. And when I do use it for navigation, I only check it at intersections compared to what other resources I might have (printed map, other person's track file, etc). If I don't have other data sources to navigate by, I just ride and record and again I don't need the map for much. Trust me, try to rely on your GPS for navigation less. It's harder than you appear to think to get hopelessly lost on the trail.

Last time I left my GPS at home on a ride (on a network trail system with many intersections that I had never ridden before), I lost the trail (but I only had a poor quality paper map and I lost the trail where it crossed a road and picked up an unknown distance down the road), but I got back to my car just fine. Part of the fun of mountain biking is getting a little lost and having a longer ride than you expected. That's rarely ever bad.



hesher said:


> I have to disagree with you on this.
> 
> If a piece of electronic was designed to be used under water or in extreme heat or on rugged terrain, it will work under these conditions, simply because it was designed to.
> 
> ...


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## hesher (Apr 25, 2009)

NateHawk said:


> Seriously you make it sound like riding on trails requires you to look at your GPS the whole time.


1. I usually ride 50-60 mile rides and on occasions 70-80. If I start exploring the area and getting lost for the fun of it, It will take me many hours and I don't have many hours. I ride fast and don't have time to start wandering around.
2. Every week a new trail and an unknown route, seldom do I repeat the same course. Maybe in a few years I'll know every trail around, right now I just don't.

Appreciate the advice but your MTB habits are not necessarily the same as mine.
Anyway, that's out of the scope of this discussion.

Thanks.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

hesher said:


> 1. I usually ride 50-60 mile rides and on occasions 70-80. If I start exploring the area and getting lost for the fun of it, It will take me many hours and I don't have many hours. I ride fast and don't have time to start wandering around.
> 2. Every week a new trail and an unknown route, seldom do I repeat the same course. Maybe in a few years I'll know every trail around, right now I just don't.
> 
> Appreciate the advice but your MTB habits are not necessarily the same as mine.
> ...


It doesn't take me terribly long to get a feel for a network of trails. I don't even have to ride them all to figure out where others might go. Granted, my local trail networks aren't SUPER long...the longest I know of now has ~50 miles of trail, although to ride all of that trail in one sitting, you might hit 70mi total. Still, for exclusively navigational purposes on an entirely new trail system where I have absolutely no preexisting data on the trails, I managed pretty well only pulling the GPS out of a pocket when I needed it. I only started using it on the bars when my regular cyclecomputer died and I just decided to use the GPS for ride stats instead of buying a new cyclecomputer.

I was using a 76CSx for that, however, and it was too big/heavy to reside in a pocket...it had to go on my pack. The Vista is certainly small enough to enjoy an easier-access position like on a shoulder strap of a backpack.

I don't try to ride especially fast unless I know a trail. It's just too easy to miss an intersection that way. If you know where the intersection is beforehand, that helps...but there's also the issue of unknowable circumstances along the route like downed timber, washouts, temporary closures, reroutes, and stuff like that. I ride a trail at least once on an exploratory basis first before I try to ride the trail fast. Seems silly to me to ride a completely new trail as though it was a race.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

*Replacement and use*

I'm using eTrexes for a few years. Legend (once replaced - lines on display), Venture Cx (replaced - once it did not start - I paid some coins and get Vista HCx), Vista Hcx (once replaced - it lost satellites for ever). Garmin Czech Republic replaced units without problems.
Also on Legend and on Venture they changed rubber on unit when it peel off. In this case it is advantage to have Garmin few km from home.
I do not use handlebar mount, it's dangerous for the unit. 
Before:
http://mur.rajce.idnes.cz/Hadanky/#DSC00903.JPG
After:
http://mur.rajce.idnes.cz/Hadanky/#DSC00905_.JPG
The light was in pieces, unit only slid side.

And by the way it also reduces vibrations.

Now I prefer this placement. ;-)
http://mur.rajce.idnes.cz/2009-07-10_UB-Azub/#20090710-145842.JPG


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## hesher (Apr 25, 2009)

Murphy1976 said:


> Now I prefer this placement. ;-)
> http://mur.rajce.idnes.cz/2009-07-10_UB-Azub/#20090710-145842.JPG


Very Cool!!
I always though recumbent is a road only cycle.
Can you climb hills with it? If not than that would be a deal breaker for most... (I live on a mountain  )


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

hesher said:


> Very Cool!!
> I always though recumbent is a road only cycle.
> Can you climb hills with it? If not than that would be a deal breaker for most... (I live on a mountain  )


For way up, it's easier to go onroad (lcd-climb.mpg on site http://www.lightningbikes.com/toc.htm). Some videos and photos You can find on http://www.azub.eu/ (manufacturer of my bike). 
The problem is that balance is closely connected with direction. You cannot work to much with gravity centre without turning. So bigger wet stones, roots, loose surface, ... should make difficulties. But - in fact, I'm beginner. This http://mur.rajce.idnes.cz/2009-05-23_ECO-Arri/ was my first meeting with bent and this http://mur.rajce.idnes.cz/2009-07-10_UB-Azub/ was after cca 100 km of experience on model ECO.


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## hesher (Apr 25, 2009)

*FYI - Welding solution in web page.*

Hi,

I've welded the battery contacts with the springs (Or where they were) and things are working fine.

Wrote about the process here.


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## Hawseman (Jun 1, 2007)

hesher said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've welded the battery contacts with the springs (Or where they were) and things are working fine.
> 
> Wrote about the process here.


Thanks hesher. Nice job on that tutorial.

I must add, that I've never had an issue with my Vista on my 5" AM bike. This is mounted to my stem and takes a living beating. It is cushioned on top of a ball frog and sits in a belt case. This arrangement keeps it more level, which improves the accuracy of the electronic compass.


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## hesher (Apr 25, 2009)

Hawseman said:


> Thanks hesher. Nice job on that tutorial.
> 
> I must add, that I've never had an issue with my Vista on my 5" AM bike.]


Thanks. 

Nice Setup!! I think I'll try to to something similar. 
Although the Vista seems fine now, extra precautions never hurt.


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

hesher said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Nice Setup!! I think I'll try to to something similar.
> Although the Vista seems fine now, extra precautions never hurt.


I had the vibration induced power off issue with my Vista after two years. Paid to get it fixed (along with a chipped window) and a year or two later it started again. Then I sold it.

I got a 60CSx which briefly had the problem a year ago. But somehow it fixed itself and I'm going on the third year now with it.

Garmin should offer an "MTB" version that has the power soldered instead of the spring clip. Everything else holds up so it seems like a simple fix.

I don't like the Edge line that Garmin promotes for biking as the batteries are not replacable AAs which are nice for longer trips, and the screen is too small.

IMO, the Vista HCx is perfect for biking if it weren't for the power-off issue. I really like the 60CSx and it's larger screen. The newer Colorado and Oregon have visibilty issues in light, so the 60CSx is still better.


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## Hawseman (Jun 1, 2007)

BigLarry said:


> ............
> 
> IMO, the Vista HCx is perfect for biking if it weren't for the power-off issue. I really like the 60CSx and it's larger screen. The newer Colorado and Oregon have visibilty issues in light, so the 60CSx is still better.


The 60CSx is a great unit, I just like the size of the Vista. Sits on my stem with absolutely no interference with visibility over the bars. Constant view, leveling (for compass), and endo clearances make this pretty much an ideal unit.

My only negative report would be with the rubber band design. I've never had the power off issue, but, because I'm long out of warranty, am not opposed to going in like hesher did. His tute shows the problem with the rubber band. It doesn't seem to retain it's shape. Even if you've never removed it, it seems to loose it's elasticity and work itself away from the unit.


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## gadget bike (Nov 15, 2009)

wow this sucks i was not aware of this problem my gf got me a vista hcx for Christmas i haven't got to use it much yet hope i dont have any problems out of it


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## cummins_powered (Mar 5, 2010)

Ive heard of guys putting something thin like foam in between the batteries and the back case and it helps solve the power issue.

I have a vista hxc and i love it, never have the power issue. before the current hcx i had a regular etrex vista, and both have served me very well. the original vista was just getting old.


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## gijsberg (Dec 2, 2005)

NateHawk said:


> >>> But in a way, Garmin encouraged people to use their handheld receivers for that purpose by providing handlebar mounts for them. <<<.


The Trans-Portugal marathon is sponsored by Garmin, and they recommend to use a GPS since the race isn't marked with arrows/signs, but only with waypoints. On there website is a overview of which Garmin GPS's are recommended.
trans-portugal.com > FAQ > GPS FAQ> scroll down.
The Etrex Vista HCX is also in this list, but the warn that the provided Garmin plastic handlebar mount isn't suitable for this marathon and with a sturdier metal support bracket.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

NateHawk said:


> If you look at the history of it, Garmin's overall philosophy on it makes sense. That power cutoff issue only happens on a mtb.


No, it happened to me on a road bike. In fact, the problem on a road bike is worse because there is no suspension and a skinny tire that doesn't absorb bumps as well as a cushy, low pressure mountain bike tire.

The Edge series, which is made for cycling, has the power off problem too, though not as bad. It uses similar spring contacts on the circuit board.

It's a flawed design that Garmin has never addressed. I could see them not retrofitting to older models, but they continue to release new products with the same, flawed design.


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## hesher (Apr 25, 2009)

MikeDee said:


> No, it happened to me on a road bike. In fact, the problem on a road bike is worse because there is no suspension and a skinny tire that doesn't absorb bumps as well as a cushy, low pressure mountain bike tire.
> 
> The Edge series, which is made for cycling, has the power off problem too, though not as bad. It uses similar spring contacts on the circuit board.
> 
> It's a flawed design that Garmin has never addressed. I could see them not retrofitting to older models, but they continue to release new products with the same, flawed design.


I agree. I will prefer a none Garmin device on my next purchase since i've lost my faith in them.
It happened to me with the 305 just yesterday...


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## david8613 (May 31, 2005)

hesher said:


> I agree. I will prefer a none Garmin device on my next purchase since i've lost my faith in them.
> It happened to me with the 305 just yesterday...


i was just leaning towards garmin, what other units are you looking at?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

david8613 said:


> i was just leaning towards garmin, what other units are you looking at?


Good luck replacing a cycling/fitness GPS with a non-Garmin model. There are options for handhelds. So far nothing really viable in the fitness/cycling market.


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## hesher (Apr 25, 2009)

david8613 said:


> i was just leaning towards garmin, what other units are you looking at?


Are you looking for a fitness device or just navigation?
For the latter, TwoNav Sportiva seems really good for a decent price..


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## dnoyeb (Sep 23, 2007)

MikeDee said:


> ...The Edge series, which is made for cycling, has the power off problem too, though not as bad. It uses similar spring contacts on the circuit board.
> 
> It's a flawed design that Garmin has never addressed. I could see them not retrofitting to older models, but they continue to release new products with the same, flawed design.


Really? I don't seem to have spring contacts in my Edge 305.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

dnoyeb said:


> Really? I don't seem to have spring contacts in my Edge 305.


Google is your friend http://blog.mtbguru.com/2008/11/06/surgery-on-the-garmin-edge-305/


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## anotherbrian (Mar 18, 2005)

This thread takes me way back ... I did have an Edge 305 that shut off on hard bumps, but subsequently replaced it with a newer one that never had the problem.

However, going back to at least 1996, I and lots of others on the net had problems with the Garmin II+/III GPS's shutting off due to the vibrations of BMW boxer motorcycles. The solution then, as now, was to shim the batteries so they couldn't move as much.

Really the problem likely effects any electronic device where the battery isn't solidly connected. Even strong springs aren't a guarantee a solid whack in the right direction won't break the connection.


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## cummins_powered (Mar 5, 2010)

In my experience it seems the design flaw with the etrex series is not the batteries but the lame rubber strap that goes around the unit. seems like a number of them fall off as the glue breaks down


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## XJFisher (May 18, 2010)

An extremely simple fix for me worked. I took a thin piece of foam from a package I recieved and cut it to fit the inside of the battery cover. Then I just placed it over the batteries and put the cover on. Not perfect but much less frequent....

Not sure about sodering wires and all that, I always hated doing that kind of thing to $200-300 sensitive electronics.


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## hesher (Apr 25, 2009)

XJFisher said:


> An extremely simple fix for me worked. I took a thin piece of foam from a package I recieved and cut it to fit the inside of the battery cover. Then I just placed it over the batteries and put the cover on. Not perfect but much less frequent....
> 
> Not sure about sodering wires and all that, I always hated doing that kind of thing to $200-300 sensitive electronics.


Its a temporary symptom delayer solution 
The soldering is the only real solution (Actually, buying a different unit is an even better solution  )


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

hesher said:


> Its a temporary symptom delayer solution
> The soldering is the only real solution (Actually, buying a different unit is an even better solution  )


I've had the intermittent power-off issue on two units after a couple years of hard use - my Vista eTrex and my 60CSx.

The Vista I sent back to Garmin for the $100 refurbish since it has several other problems, like a cracked screen from when I dropped it on a rock, and a sticky joystick. (joy-sticky?) The problem never came back in another 1.5 years of use before selling it.

My 60CSx barely had a problem, only once a month after a couple years of use. For some reason it cured itself. Maybe because I bent out the leads a little or went to bigger PowerEx batteries??

Fortunately, I never had to open up the unit and solder leads. But if I had a bad problem, that would certainly be the ultimate fix.


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## XJFisher (May 18, 2010)

hesher said:


> Its a temporary symptom delayer solution
> The soldering is the only real solution (Actually, buying a different unit is an even better solution  )


Ok, but as long as I don't use rechargeables I don't have an issue at all. Its been about 2 years now... I still get issues but not as often as before with rechargeable batteries.

Soldering would be my last resort. I'm pretty stuck on the Garmin units as over the past 10 years me and my family have owned more gps's than I care to count. The Garmin ones are the only ones that have never failed.

Most my other experience is with Magellens, which don't seem to hold up as long.


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## Ted (Jan 29, 2004)

I have a GolfLogix golf GPS which is just a Garmin etrex in disguise. It shuts off periodically as I walk around the course. When I look for a yardage and find it to be off I just turn it back on again and it powers up quickly. Not a big problem for golf but a real pain for mtb. I am surprised that Garmin has never bothered to fix this simple problem.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

No issues with my etrex legend hcx. I mountain bike with it in my pocket. I thought about the bar mount, but changed my mind after reading this thread.


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## bosp7 (Nov 21, 2008)

I think this problem is related to using the Garmin handlebar mount. The unit being supported by the battery compartment cover allows the batteries to move around more. I used the Garmin handlebar mount on my motorcycle and had the problem quite frequently.

On my MTB I use a RAM mount cradle that encloses the sides and back of the GPS. It adds a pretty good extra layer of protection to the GPS in crashes. I cut the diamond mount bracket off of the cradle and used some big zip ties to strap it to the stem. Works perfectly and have never had the cut-out issue on the bike.

Here's my setup:


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## BigLarry (Jul 30, 2004)

bosp7 said:


> I think this problem is related to using the Garmin handlebar mount. ...
> 
> On my MTB I use a RAM mount cradle that encloses the sides and back of the GPS...


Good idea.

Is that a etrex Vista? Once, when my Vista was powering off on hard bumps, I loosened the handlebar bracket a little and the power off problem stopped and went away. It indeed indicated that the mount was also putting stress on the unit.

I tried loosening the handlebar bracket again when I got the problem months later, and it didn't help that time. So there's more to this power-off problem that may have many causes - small batteries, weak battery springs, worn out internal spring contacts between front and back, and mounting stress as well.


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## bosp7 (Nov 21, 2008)

Yeah, It's an eTrex Vista hcx.

I really think the unit being supported by the battery compartment door is a big factor in the problem.

I have never had it power off while supported by the RAM cradle - big crashes, endos, tree encounters included.


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## jbl_91762 (Nov 1, 2009)

I have the eTrex Venture HC for a few years now and mainly used it on my ATV.. and recently did a xc trail and had no problems with power issues and it stayed firm on the handlebars kit I mounted. good luck!


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