# Suggestions for a Smooth riding hardtail for 'old guy'.



## centershot (Nov 21, 2008)

Been riding a 2020 Kona Honzo Al w/ 2.5 tires and 120mm Bomber Z2 fork. But recently have been enjoying more flowy, smoother - green and blue trails. 54 years old, been riding mountain bikes since their inception and BMX bikes before that and an old Schwinn 5 speed Stingray before that.......add to that 30+ years of dirt bikes and 50 years later my knees and back ain't what they used to be. So I'm tinkering with the thought of a 'softer riding' frame. I like the geo of the Kona and don't want to go any more aggressive - maybe just slightly less aggressive. Local shop can get Kona Unit frames, wonder if that steel frame would be and softer riding than the Honzo AL? Banshee Middle Child seems pretty cool but not sure about geo as does the Ragley Big Al. Don't really want to go to FS even though that make the most sence. Any recommendations.


----------



## ugadawg (Jun 27, 2020)

I have an aluminum Honzo and a Canfield Nimble 9. The Nimble 9 is similar to the Honzo, but the steel frame is more forgiving.


----------



## Grindup (9 mo ago)

Kona Honzo st?


----------



## Space Robot (Sep 13, 2008)

I’ve had 2 Kona Units and I wouldn’t call them smooth. Maybe a bit more than an AL frame. The stays were pretty beefy compared to some and didn’t seem to flex much (or dampen the chatter). But my last one was a 2013, maybe they’ve changed.


----------



## LarryMagoo (12 mo ago)

Hey Centershot,

You need an eBike! Best solution for tattered knees!


----------



## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

At least in my experience (probably not as large as many others), some hardtails are slightly more comfortable then others but I am willing to bet a large part of that comes from components (wheels, tires, handlebars, grips, fork) more then the frame. But at the end of the day, the rear of the bike still doesn't really move.


----------



## dllawson819 (Feb 22, 2019)

You could also try CushCore XC inserts. They might give you a smoother ride than going with a slightly different frame.


----------



## scoon (Aug 26, 2005)

Take a look at the Esker Japhy frame and swap parts over: Japhy 
I had a Hayduke and the quad butted tubing they use is both light and forgiving.


----------



## Sarguy (Sep 25, 2010)

Hmm. Smooth riding hardtail, kind of an oxymoron like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence"


----------



## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

I'm a 53yo, ex-XC racer and roadie. I still prefer to ride a hardtail with a racy setup. I recently picked up a used Trek Procaliber. I'm extremely pleased with it. While pedaling in the saddle, the flexible connection between the seat tube and top tube takes the sharp edges off quite nicely.


----------



## xjbaylor (Sep 22, 2006)

I agree, FS makes the most sense. But if not that, consider Neuhaus. This thing is really really good, and with 10 sizes to choose from it is easy to find something that works really well for you.

Also, run larger tires at lower pressure. That will make a bigger difference than any frame material.


----------



## Eric F (May 25, 2021)

xjbaylor said:


> I agree, FS makes the most sense. But if not that, consider Neuhaus. This thing is really really good, and with 10 sizes to choose from it is easy to find something that works really well for you.
> 
> Also, run larger tires at lower pressure. That will make a bigger difference than any frame material.
> 
> View attachment 1990768


That's a SWEEEEETTTT singlespeed!!


----------



## jannmayer (10 mo ago)

You might also want to take a look at the Fairlight Holt. It hasn't started shipping yet, so there aren't any reviews, but it was designed for ride quality. They are well known for nice riding bikes, so I expect this will be very similar. The price is good too, although the color selection is less exciting.


----------



## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

Go wild with a ti frame.


----------



## Prognosticator (Feb 15, 2021)

xjbaylor said:


> I agree, FS makes the most sense. But if not that, consider Neuhaus. This thing is really really good, and with 10 sizes to choose from it is easy to find something that works really well for you.
> 
> Also, run larger tires at lower pressure. That will make a bigger difference than any frame material.
> 
> View attachment 1990768


That's a lovely bike. That rear triangle is so elegant. It looks like it would be very comfortable.


----------



## centershot (Nov 21, 2008)

Oogie said:


> Go wild with a ti frame.


This I have been thinking about. A local shop has a lightly used Salsa Timberjack Ti. Geo is from 2019 I believe. Tempted but Ti is a very expensive experiment. Any input on this frame?


----------



## centershot (Nov 21, 2008)

LarryMagoo said:


> Hey Centershot,
> 
> You need an eBike! Best solution for tattered knees!


Trying to hold off as long as possible on the ebikes........but eventually an ebike it will likely be.


----------



## centershot (Nov 21, 2008)

Grindup said:


> Kona Honzo st?


I have ridden a couple steel Honzos, the ones I have ridden were at least as stiff as the AL version I have.


----------



## centershot (Nov 21, 2008)

Space Robot said:


> I’ve had 2 Kona Units and I wouldn’t call them smooth. Maybe a bit more than an AL frame. The stays were pretty beefy compared to some and didn’t seem to flex much (or dampen the chatter). But my last one was a 2013, maybe they’ve changed.


Interesting.......did you put a suspension fork on them? They are not built as heavy duty as a St. Honzo - less gussets and bracing. Thought maybe they would ride a little smoother.


----------



## BikGer2 (May 25, 2021)

You should try any of these bikes before buying,
but my personal recommendation would be something like the GT Zaskar LT. The frame has 'flex stays', basically the seat stays are not welded to the seat tube, but further up front to the top tube which allows for a decent amount of compliance in the rear triangle. The Zaskar is an aggressive bike though, so take this just as a recommendation, maybe you should try it out.


----------



## Oogie (Jun 9, 2021)

centershot said:


> This I have been thinking about. A local shop has a lightly used Salsa Timberjack Ti. Geo is from 2019 I believe. Tempted but Ti is a very expensive experiment. Any input on this frame?


I have no input on the timberjack other than a local guy loves his to bits. Sonder Broken Road seems like a good deal. Plus tires will smooth things out too. Sonder Broken Road


----------



## Yootah (Jun 30, 2017)

If you want smooth, go plus. A steel frame with plus tires is ideal for flowy trails with mild chunder. You'll still have to slow down for the big stuff, but for the rest you'll think you're riding on a carpet.


----------



## centershot (Nov 21, 2008)

jannmayer said:


> You might also want to take a look at the Fairlight Holt. It hasn't started shipping yet, so there aren't any reviews, but it was designed for ride quality. They are well known for nice riding bikes, so I expect this will be very similar. The price is good too, although the color selection is less exciting.


Very interesting. Like the shaped chain and seat stays for compliance. Tubing designed for 100-120mm fork. Thanks, did not know this even existed.


----------



## centershot (Nov 21, 2008)

Yootah said:


> If you want smooth, go plus. A steel frame with plus tires is ideal for flowy trails with mild chunder. You'll still have to slow down for the big stuff, but for the rest you'll think you're riding on a carpet.


Should add that this bike gets used for everything. Commuting to work ~10 miles per day, gravel riding, trail riding, whatever sounds like fun that day! Plus tires are just too slow - I have 2.5 Ehlines right now that are a good compromise between float, traction and still roll fast. Thanks.

Here's the current rig in it's current configuration.


----------



## Yootah (Jun 30, 2017)

centershot said:


> Plus tires are just too slow


That's a matter of opinion. I commute 15 miles each way, and before I bought an ebike I did it on a fatbike rolling 26x4.5 or 29x3, depending on which wheelset I happened to be running. Plus and fat just need to be run at a little higher PSI and they're fine on the road. If you're sensitive enough that you can feel the difference between a 2.5 and a 2.8, you need a road bike.


----------



## Space Robot (Sep 13, 2008)

centershot said:


> Interesting.......did you put a suspension fork on them? They are not built as heavy duty as a St. Honzo - less gussets and bracing. Thought maybe they would ride a little smoother.


Yes I mostly ran a suspension fork on mine. I just found it a little more firm in the rear on rooty descents compared to other steel bikes like my Fargo. Could be down to tires, wheels or something else, but I’m running a similar width and pressure.

I think you’d need to buy a custom frame to get something that has been more tuned for compliance.

I’d still check one out. I did a short parking lot ride on the new Unit X and it’s a nice little package with Deore stuff and 2.6 tires.


----------



## JackOfDiamonds (Apr 17, 2020)

I don't really believe in the frame compliance fairy. If you want a smoother hard tail use fatter tires or a suspension seatpost.

What about a Jones?









Finally: some recently (and not so recently) completed builds! - Jones Bikes Blog


Over the years we’ve posted photos of some of the recent bikes we’ve built for customers, but lately, we’ve been busy with other things and all of the bike builds that have been happening just haven’t ended up on the blog. Hopefully late really is better than never, because what follows is a...




blog.jonesbikes.com


----------



## Catmandoo (Dec 20, 2018)

My '19 Specialized Chisel was reviewed as being flexy, due to the tubing and design Specialized did with it. Im a clyde and do not find it at all flexy but do find it a very comfortable ride for aluminum. The bike and geometry climbs like a bat, it also accelerat3s very quick which woild be expected of an HT. The great climbing is a feature that surprised me. Its a vey nice bike at a nice price.


----------



## shwndh (Nov 20, 2004)

xjbaylor said:


> I agree, FS makes the most sense. But if not that, consider Neuhaus. This thing is really really good, and with 10 sizes to choose from it is easy to find something that works really well for you.
> 
> Also, run larger tires at lower pressure. That will make a bigger difference than any frame material.
> 
> View attachment 1990768


Nice looking bike! That color reminds me of the old Hutch TrickStar from back in the day.


----------



## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

What you are desiring is an efficient full suspension. I had an older Salsa spearfish that had enough rear suspension (80mm) to soak up the bumps, but it pedaled extremely efficient. It was designed for an all day race over any terrain, which is exactly what you're describing.


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

I don't notice much, if any, difference between my carbon, steel, and aluminum hardtails. For long days or rough days, my "old guy hardtail" is actually a titanium soft tail with 20mm of travel at the rear axle. It rides like a hardtail, but is a bit more forgiving.


----------



## 2sharp7 (Aug 29, 2013)

What @xjbaylor said regarding Neuhaus! I don't have one but was recently able to ride their Hummingbird model and it was VERY comfortable and compliant. I switched bikes with it's owner while riding the local single track, and I actually forgot at first it was a hardtail, it was that compliant, when compared to my hardtail which is not a harsh riding bike by any stretch.


----------



## Space Robot (Sep 13, 2008)

sgltrak said:


> I don't notice much, if any, difference between my carbon, steel, and aluminum hardtails. For long days or rough days, my "old guy hardtail" is actually a titanium soft tail with 20mm of travel at the rear axle. It rides like a hardtail, but is a bit more forgiving.
> View attachment 1990788


That’s a beauty. One of my dream bikes. Do they still make them?

I had a Salsa Dos Niner scandium softail but it eventually cracked.


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Space Robot said:


> That’s a beauty. One of my dream bikes. Do they still make them?
> 
> I had a Salsa Dos Niner scandium softail but it eventually cracked.


They still make these today, but they are pricey. If not for the used market, I wouldn't have them. All three of mine were bought used for reasonable prices. The newest is a 2009.


----------



## Space Robot (Sep 13, 2008)

sgltrak said:


> They still make these today, but they are pricey. If not for the used market, I wouldn't have them. All three of mine were bought used for reasonable prices. The newest is a 2009.


Wait what? You have THREE?! Nice! Want to sell one? JK


----------



## WillDB (Jul 15, 2020)

If I were building a new hardtail and didn't want to spring for Ti, I would go for 4130. The compliance of the Esker Japhy or Hayduke with its tubing is _very_ nice.

At the same price point you can also consider a Surly. There's less flex in the rear end and its a bit heavier. Modern Karate Monkey can accommodate a 130mm fork, Krampus for 120mm up front but will clear any flavor of 29x3.


----------



## jond63 (May 26, 2010)

I'm 54 and in a similar boat and I think I'm going to try the Ragley Big Al.


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Space Robot said:


> Wait what? You have THREE?! Nice! Want to sell one? JK


First one is a 1997 26" that I bought 17 years ago and doesn't see much use anymore. I'll sell you that one.
Second one is a 2009 29er that I cracked a few years back and had repaired, but have resigned it to gravel duty since it looks like the crack is returning. I'll sell you that one, too.
The one pictured is a 2008 29er and its not for sale.


----------



## hwcn (Jul 31, 2010)

59 years old. Bad knees, bad back, bad neck. I ride a Salsa TJ, 1st version with 29x3 wheels/tires. It‘s smooth, forgiving, and amazing in rock/rooty terrain. Makes rock gardens easy. Perfect old guy platform.


----------



## Mk3Rider (Dec 7, 2008)

My 29 x 2.8's on a carbon suzi q rides better than the 27.5 x 2.8's on my niner sir9 steel frame. 

I'd recommend something that clears 29 x 2.8's or 3.0's if you want to go the hard tail route.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Sarguy said:


> Hmm. Smooth riding hardtail, kind of an oxymoron like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence"


I was gonna say the same thing …

It’s like saying you want a concrete floor that’s forgiving 🤣

You are getting older, you have a lot of aches and pains, you want to ride mellow stuff and be more comfortable.

Get a short travel full suspension 29er like a Ripley.

You can thank me later.


----------



## Gdirrty216 (Nov 23, 2018)

Yeti ARC. I have 2.6” tires to give a little more comfort and it is perfect on mellow trails but still rips on techy downhills. 10/10 recommend.


----------



## Space Robot (Sep 13, 2008)

sgltrak said:


> First one is a 1997 26" that I bought 17 years ago and doesn't see much use anymore. I'll sell you that one.
> Second one is a 2009 29er that I cracked a few years back and had repaired, but have resigned it to gravel duty since it looks like the crack is returning. I'll sell you that one, too.
> The one pictured is a 2008 29er and its not for sale.


How many miles did you get before it cracked? Did Moots repair it? My Salsa only lasted a few years, and I didn’t put a ton of miles on it. Although I bought it used and don’t know it’s history.

Just checking out the new Mountaineer on the Moots website. 😍


----------



## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

I just hit 50, so I'm not far away from you.

I used to be a steel fan, but I think the bikes have to be so overbuilt these days to accommodate big forks, liability, etc, that the ride feel isn't much different between a steel or aluminum frame. If you want to wind back the clock to 1990 and buy an MB-Zip, then sure, it will give a smooth ride. But bikes like that basically don't exist anymore.

For my hardtails, I run a PNW Coast suspension dropper post. It only has an inch of travel, but it's enough to take the sharp edge off of hits. Or I ride my full suspension bike.


----------



## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

Sarguy said:


> Hmm. Smooth riding hardtail, kind of an oxymoron like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence"


Hmmm…oxymoronic: not overbuilt steel frame, 2.6 tires on well built wheels = absolutely best ride feel ever on a bike for me. 

Ivy League Marine = lots of ways we can end a confrontation and feel good about the philosophical elements of the decision.


----------



## dryk1t (7 mo ago)

Me personally, when I am a little more broken / tired of body, I am going to just rock the short travel FS life for any commute/trail/gravel solution and I totally see why people are just pointing in that direction.

----------

Options are limitless if you step outside the frame being the be all and end all solution to the problem. Tyres will be where you see the most benefit of a plush life and wheels are also going to give you more on top of that.

I would pick a 29er, run some inserts like cushcores or look at dropping some dollarbucks on some spank vibrocores on whatever hardtail you absolutely love the look of / find value in / works the geometry perfect for you.

I have actually been loving life on my short commute by not taking the gravel setup every time and opting for my Giant Fathom with 2.5's instead for a bit of an energy burn in my time poor life at the moment. Certainly not the thing I would do in good weather seasons when I am already burning a lot of energy on the weekends outside, but it has shown me how crazy soft a hardtail can be on a commute (80% road, 20% gravel) without doing anything dramatic like going super unique frame designs / ti setups / steelies and keeps options pretty crazy.

It has actually made me look at building up a fun hybrid, ditch the really efficient gravel setup and go somethig between it and my fathom for the daily commute.


----------



## Space Robot (Sep 13, 2008)

If I ever bought another hardtail, I’d make sure it could fit some huge 29” tires. But yeah I’m 50 also and probably headed for FS. I had a Tallboy and regret selling it.


----------



## Blue Dot Trail (May 30, 2018)

Definitely a steel frame, but also maybe try plus tires (27.5 x 3) and play around with your riding position (add riser bars, etc).


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Space Robot said:


> How many miles did you get before it cracked? Did Moots repair it? My Salsa only lasted a few years, and I didn’t put a ton of miles on it. Although I bought it used and don’t know it’s history.
> 
> Just checking out the new Mountaineer on the Moots website. 😍


I put about 3500 rough trail miles on it before I found the crack at the intersection of the top tube, head tube, and down tube. It was 8 or 9 years old when I bought it and I don't know its history prior to my ownership, so there may have been many more miles. Moots said they didn't believe it could be repaired, but they generously offered a deal on a replacement frame, even though I was not the original owner. However, a new frame was not in the budget because newer standards would have also required new fork and wheels. James at Black Sheep agreed to weld the crack for me to see if it would hold, which it did for another year or two of aggressive riding.
FWIW I also recently cracked my Reynolds 853 steel frame. I don't blame the builder of either frame.


----------



## socal_jack (Dec 30, 2008)

64 here and built up my first Ti(Radimus) last year, there definitely seems to be something to the claims about Ti compliance but as always. not all frames/builds(wheels/forks especially) are the same YMMV. Running a 150mm Pike Ultimate and 2.6(more like 2.7) Trail Boss. My Riot sees very little ride time anymore.









Another smooth setup ROS9+ and a Moné rigid fork, my resistance trainer, steel plus 2.8 Vigilantes, heavy and grippy.


----------



## Super E (Nov 5, 2004)

centershot said:


> … 54 years old…


Someone forgot to tell me that 54 is old…I’m a ways beyond that, was riding a single speed fat tire bike (well fat at the time) in the 1960’s as a kid - btw Gary Fisher did not invent the mountain bike, they existed long before.

I still prefer hardtail, single speed, steel or ti and rigid with no less than 2.6” tires. It’s smooth for me.


----------



## jiw71 (Feb 15, 2009)

centershot said:


> Trying to hold off as long as possible on the ebikes........but eventually an ebike it will likely be.


DON'T hold off on the e-bike! Riding an e-bike BEFORE the knees go will extend your biking pleasure immeasurably.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

seat_boy said:


> I just hit 50, so I'm not far away from you.
> 
> I used to be a steel fan, but I think the bikes have to be so overbuilt these days to accommodate big forks, liability, etc, that the ride feel isn't much different between a steel or aluminum frame. If you want to wind back the clock to 1990 and buy an MB-Zip, then sure, it will give a smooth ride. But bikes like that basically don't exist anymore.
> 
> For my hardtails, I run a PNW Coast suspension dropper post. It only has an inch of travel, but it's enough to take the sharp edge off of hits. Or I ride my full suspension bike.


After a multi day bikepacking ride on my enduro bike, which necessitated the use of s backpack to carry enough gear, I bought a Nicolai Argon Pinion hardtail 27+.

The Argon rides much firmer than a full suspension, so I tried a PNW Coast for a minute, which helped, but not as much as a Thudbuster which I also tried.

In the end neither made enough difference to warrant the cost, added complexity, and reduced drop ability; I reinstalled a OneUp 210mm dropper 🤙

Plus tires help to a degree, but run the pressure low enough and they wallow, run the pressure high enough and they lose their cushiony benefits. I’m running 2.6 at 18 psi and it’s firm enough to ride well while still being somewhat “soft”.

It’s and tired argument, but fatter tires will never be an adequate replacement for quality suspension.

Ride a hardtail and suck it up or get an FS bike.

To the OP:you already have two hardtails, why would you get a third?


----------



## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

Yeah, somewhere in my bin I have a Thudbuster. The Coast is nowhere near the suspension capability of the Thuddie.

Anyway, I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of dropper travel to keep the suspension travel of the Coast. I do wish PNW would come out with a bigger travel version, though!



Nurse Ben said:


> After a multi day bikepacking ride on my enduro bike, which necessitated the use of s backpack to carry enough gear, I bought a Nicolai Argon Pinion hardtail 27+.
> 
> The Argon rides much firmer than a full suspension, so I tried a PNW Coast for a minute, which helped, but not as much as a Thudbuster which I also tried.
> 
> ...


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Another vote for Neuhaus. It's actually a smooth riding hardtail. The rear end is simply amazing on his bikes. Still a hardtail though.


----------



## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

Have you looked at some of the British brands like Cotic, Pipedream & Stanton? They all offer a few HT options to fit your need & have been ranked as being comfortable ht that are still capable.


----------



## bigE29er (Jul 26, 2019)

steel frame, long wheel base, 29er tires at 2.6 or wider...


----------



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> It’s and tired argument, but fatter tires will never be an adequate replacement for quality suspension.


It’s not as simple as that. Higher quality suspension (fork/frame) will never be an adequate replacement for the high frequency impacts tires handle or the large impacts our body’s handle.

Bikes have three main systems for suspension; the tires, the fork/frame and the body. Each system does a good job of managing motions the others can't handle.

The fork/frame (which is what your referring to with “quality suspension”) handle the medium sized impacts at moderate speeds and yes, wider/larger volume tires will never be able to do a better job at handling this. However, tires handle small, high frequency impacts that the fork/frame and body cannot and no matter how high quality the suspension is, it will never be able to react quickly enough to handle these types of impacts better than the tire.

Given this, the type of terrain will determine which system of suspension will be doing most the work. So, if the terrain has a lot of medium sized impacts, then “quality suspension” will have more of an advantage than larger volume tires. But, if the terrain has a lot smaller high frequency impacts, then higher volume tires will have more of an advantage than the highest quality suspension.

The part that matters is figuring out which of the systems of suspension will be doing the most work for the given terrain and then optimizing that system. And while it is true that no one system can be an adequate replacement for the other, only 2 of the systems are critical to riding off-road terrain and would not be able to be ridden without them.


----------



## centershot (Nov 21, 2008)

Super E said:


> Someone forgot to tell me that 54 is old…I’m a ways beyond that, was riding a single speed fat tire bike (well fat at the time) in the 1960’s as a kid - btw Gary Fisher did not invent the mountain bike, they existed long before.
> 
> I still prefer hardtail, single speed, steel or ti and rigid with no less than 2.6” tires. It’s smooth for me.


Well maybe not old, but I do have a lot of miles on me. lol


----------



## King of Pentacles (10 mo ago)

dllawson819 said:


> You could also try CushCore XC inserts. They might give you a smoother ride than going with a slightly different frame.


Another vote for CushCore to solve your issue, especially with a HT.

I use CC Pro in my HT, and I can feel the difference. I run a Maxxis Assegai 2.5 @ 18 psi in the front, and a Minion DHR 2.4 rear @ 21 psi. The lower psi coupled with the foam insert make for a much softer and grippier ride, though it does add some weight. That's not a factor for me, but is for some. I'm 51 and ride fire/logging access roads up, and beginner/intermediate trails down.


----------



## noosa2 (May 20, 2004)

seat_boy said:


> Yeah, somewhere in my bin I have a Thudbuster. The Coast is nowhere near the suspension capability of the Thuddie.
> 
> Anyway, I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of dropper travel to keep the suspension travel of the Coast. I do wish PNW would come out with a bigger travel version, though!


I’d love to know if Redshift sport is close to releasing their thudbuster like dropper post or if that idea was shelved.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

singletrackmack said:


> It’s not as simple as that. Higher quality suspension (fork/frame) will never be an adequate replacement for the high frequency impacts tires handle or the large impacts our body’s handle.
> 
> Bikes have three main systems for suspension; the tires, the fork/frame and the body. Each system does a good job of managing motions the others can't handle.
> 
> ...


You, my friend, have got to lay off the dope, it's gone  to your head.

Here's a practical application you can try at home: Block the suspension on your car/truck, then go for a spin on a gravel road


----------



## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Best softer-riding frame for old dudes is one with rear suspension


----------



## Space Robot (Sep 13, 2008)

Has anyone traded their 29er hardtail for a fat bike? Or is it too sluggish on xc trails? I’ve wanted to try out a Surly Ice Cream Truck for a while just for kicks.


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Space Robot said:


> Has anyone traded their 29er hardtail for a fat bike? Or is it too sluggish on xc trails? I’ve wanted to try out a Surly Ice Cream Truck for a while just for kicks.


I sold my fat bike after a year because it was so slow and sluggish.


----------



## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Space Robot said:


> Has anyone traded their 29er hardtail for a fat bike? Or is it too sluggish on xc trails? I’ve wanted to try out a Surly Ice Cream Truck for a while just for kicks.


Imho a nice light and narrow 65mm wheelset with 3.8" tires is pretty sweet for XC trails. 4.8" Jumbo Jim's are ok with my Nextie 90mm rims, but I do love my 29x3" setup the most.


----------



## Space Robot (Sep 13, 2008)

jonshonda said:


> Imho a nice light and narrow 65mm wheelset with 3.8" tires is pretty sweet for XC trails. 4.8" Jumbo Jim's are ok with my Nextie 90mm rims, but I do love my 29x3" setup the most.


Thanks! What bike(s) are you running these on?


----------



## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Space Robot said:


> Thanks! What bike(s) are you running these on?


Growler American Stout. I am pretty sure most fat bikes will run 29x3 as well, but don't take my word for it.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I rode fat bikes for a bunch of years, roe them on dirt which was a "bouncy" affair, fat tires have their value but unsuspended fat tires are just too bouncy without damping, of course damping requires suspension, so then why have fat tires: traction on soft surfaces.

So yeah, fatter tires do not equal suspension, and the "suspension" fat tires provide is minimal and just causes bounce and slop.

Sweet spot for a hard tail is 2.5-2.6, skinnier if you wanna ride fast and can accommodate the hard ride.

If the OP must have a "hardtail like bike", perhaps a softail like Moots?

Personally, I'd rather have 100-120mm rear suspension and running more damping or lock it out when not needed.


----------



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> You, my friend, have got to lay off the dope, it's gone  to your head.
> 
> Here's a practical application you can try at home: Block the suspension on your car/truck, then go for a spin on a gravel road


Car/truck and bicycle suspension are quite different. 

Since we are talking about mountain bikes and not cars, why didn’t you just suggest I try and block out the suspension on my mtb? Not sure how I would even block the suspension on my truck?
Anyways, guess what? Mtbs with zero suspension are easy to come by and they work awesome on gravel roads and mellow single track. In fact they work better then my sus bike on those trials.

Now, how about you try some solid rubber tires on your mtb with suspension and let us know how that goes? 

What? Solid rubber mtb tires are not common at all and you’re not able to try it out? Strange how many companies make mtbs without suspension though, huh?


----------



## Little_twin (Feb 23, 2016)

singletrackmack said:


> Car/truck and bicycle suspension are quite different.
> 
> Since we are talking about mountain bikes and not cars, why didn’t you just suggest I try and block out the suspension on my mtb? Not sure how I would even block the suspension on my truck?
> Anyways, guess what? Mtbs with zero suspension are easy to come by and they work awesome on gravel roads and mellow single track. In fact they work better then my sus bike on those trials.
> ...


A mountain bike with zero suspension can be extremely capable on more than mellow single track in the right hands 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

It's all about points of contact. Get yourself some cheap Chinese carbon straight bars, ditch the dropper post and fit the thinnest seat post you can, preferably carbon again, get some of those cheap foam glue on grips, 2.5-2.6 tyres at sensible pressure, good to go. And ride more. Or less. Whatever works. Rule of thumb, if you're still really sore 24hrs after exercise, you've gone a bit hard. If you're fine, go a bit harder. Or not.


----------



## Mk3Rider (Dec 7, 2008)

Space Robot said:


> Has anyone traded their 29er hardtail for a fat bike? Or is it too sluggish on xc trails? I’ve wanted to try out a Surly Ice Cream Truck for a while just for kicks.



I use this as my 29+ hardtail in the warm months and as a fatbike in the cold months. 83mm bottom bracket and a super dooper boost rear end (177mm). Comes in at 25# with the rigid fork. Around 28# as is minus the water bottles. Rides like a dream on most trails and is a rocket on the smoother trails. 

My 29er hardtail is setup as a 27.5+ bike. Smaller wheel diameter and shorter wheelbase make the ride more choppy.


----------



## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Nurse Ben said:


> I rode fat bikes for a bunch of years, roe them on dirt which was a "bouncy" affair, fat tires have their value but unsuspended fat tires are just too bouncy without damping, of course damping requires suspension, so then why have fat tires: traction on soft surfaces.
> 
> So yeah, fatter tires do not equal suspension, and the "suspension" fat tires provide is minimal and just causes bounce and slop.
> 
> ...


I know you are well aware of how to ride bikes, and likely have more skill then most, but I am going to offer my take on fat tires on dirt that differs from your experience. They can be bouncy, but imho air pressure and floating on the saddle play major roles in the ride qualities of fat bikes. The tires might not offer "suspension", but they sure do soak up the small stuff. Their larger diameter also has many benefits. I will say if the rider is used to a FS bike where they just sit in the saddle and pedal, ANY hardtail will be a major change. 

And I will add that 29x3" is AMAZING for a hardtail or rigid, well at least for this 6'2" 255lb rider it is!


----------



## bitflogger (Jan 12, 2004)

A few thoughts from an old guy with body parts deteriorating faster than my brain and attitude. Also from an old guy with steel Honzo, AL hardtail, a titanium frame, plastic fattie, and dual suspension.

As much as our beloved steel Honzo is more comfy than our AL hardtail, our Moots frame has the magic combo of stiffness and comfort. A year later I have no regrets with that seriously expensive purchase.

There's also a reality that my trail/AM/enduro type dual suspension bike just works better for where the beloved steel Honzo can leave me in pain for days. The 130 rear Pike 140 front 29r dual bike is not too extreme for slack, weight or anything. I can ride it an easy 2-3x longer or farther than the hardtail I love. The reverse mullet 130 rear but 140 front keep it pumpy, yet I can take it on chairlifts.

My age adjusted method is the Honzo for what's too much for gravel bike, gravel bike for a whole lot of riding, and the dual suspension trail bike for long and hard off road rides without being crippled for days following.


----------



## Space Robot (Sep 13, 2008)

jonshonda said:


> And I will add that 29x3" is AMAZING for a hardtail or rigid, well at least for this 6'2" 255lb rider it is!


I was looking at upgrading my Fargo to the latest version which will take 29x3’s. Mine can only fit 2.35. Pretty expensive swap though.

Here’s a list of 29+ bikes


----------



## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

jonshonda said:


> I know you are well aware of how to ride bikes, and likely have more skill then most, but I am going to offer my take on fat tires on dirt that differs from your experience. They can be bouncy, but imho air pressure and floating on the saddle play major roles in the ride qualities of fat bikes. The tires might not offer "suspension", but they sure do soak up the small stuff. Their larger diameter also has many benefits. I will say if the rider is used to a FS bike where they just sit in the saddle and pedal, ANY hardtail will be a major change.
> 
> And I will add that 29x3" is AMAZING for a hardtail or rigid, well at least for this 6'2" 255lb rider it is!


I too have heard the diatribe regarding plus (minus need not apply)
Riding some local singletrack and the fools that say plus doesn't work... They are like a septic tank... How is it that I leave em like a dirty shirt on ascents and descents with a one speed automatic with towing package brakes? I have hoarded quite a few pair of Nobbys and Rockets to last a number of years, all in my favorite, 3.hellyeah plushness.
Rebel with a rebel bike with a cause or three!
It's comical cause I have no interest in riding 2.fuckthatshit anymore.


----------



## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

BansheeRune said:


> I too have heard the diatribe regarding plus (minus need not apply)
> Riding some local singletrack and the fools that say plus doesn't work... They are like a septic tank... *How is it that I leave em like a dirty shirt on ascents and descents with a one speed automatic with towing package brakes?* I have hoarded quite a few pair of Nobbys and Rockets to last a number of years, all in my favorite, 3.hellyeah plushness.
> Rebel with a rebel bike with a cause or three!
> It's comical cause I have no interest in riding 2.fuckthatshit anymore.


Obviously you're the Chuck Norris of mountain biking. Chuck Norris doesn't need suspension, it's the same as when he does pushups, the Earth just gets out of his way.


----------



## justwan naride (Oct 13, 2008)

Before splurging on a new frame, try a high volume insert on the rear wheel. Cushcore, Rimpact, that kind of insert. I used the latter for a year on my own ht with great results. Combined with a tyre with pliable carcass (Maxxis EXO for example) and 2-3 psi lower that what I'd normally use I got a noticeably calmer and "softer" ride. Nothing like full suspension, but close to the difference between a harsh alu frame and a skiny steel one. It's not a huge investment either, at worse you have paid for some rim protection.

On frame recommendations, the Production Privee Shan is the sweetest riding frame I've ever ridden. The Shan GT is close to your Honzo in geometry, but these guys have done some magic on their stays. Between the Shan and my own ht (a Whyte 905 with triple butted stays) I noticed difference in feel over rocks with the Shan muting the vibrations more effectively. That was before I started using an insert though, with the addition of the Rimpact on the rear the two bikes felt close to identical.

Short version: Try a insert and lower pressure first, if that's not enough then look for a forgiving frame.


----------



## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Space Robot said:


> I was looking at upgrading my Fargo to the latest version which will take 29x3’s. Mine can only fit 2.35. Pretty expensive swap though.
> 
> Here’s a list of 29+ bikes


If you take your Fargo off road often, and are rigid, then I vote go for it. I can say that for me personally, 29+ is the only way my body tolerates rigid riding. If you do ride a lot of mixed terrain, I would strongly suggest something like the Bontrager XR2 Team issue paired with the lightest rim you can get away with to help reduce the weight. I know some have commented that 27.5" plus get up to speed faster, but they don't maintain momentum as well. 



justwan naride said:


> Nothing like full suspension, but close to the difference between a harsh alu frame and a skiny steel one. It's not a huge investment either, at worse you have paid for some rim protection.


I think that is where plus has let people down, is people assuming that they will get the FS out of a hardtail. That just isn't the case. But nothing pedals like a rigid bike, especially if you stand and climb. As a tall and heavy rider I have found 29x3 to provide the most fun for me. The other thing that has killed the bike industry is the [email protected] weight weinies.


----------



## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Little_twin said:


> A mountain bike with zero suspension can be extremely capable on more than mellow single track in the right hands
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yup, 100% agree! So can a hardtail fat bike. For example, in the hands of the riders at GMBN fat bikes were quite faster on flat to slightly down hill singletrack than a full sus trail bike.
I find this to be the true for me and the fat bike is quite faster then my full sus on flatter, twisty singletrack. Now, on steeper trails, more open high speed trails or chunk then the full sus is definitely faster.


----------



## sselhtrim (Nov 6, 2021)

i find that the brooks cambium saddle slightly calms things down but is heavy, nearly 500 grams.


----------



## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

One thing I'm actually considering, out of curiosity mainly, is trying a boost fork with a 2.6-2.8 tyre on my 650b. Two reasons, one for cornering traction, and the other is just to see if it rides softer and smoother.


----------



## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

singletrackmack said:


> Yup, 100% agree! So can a hardtail fat bike. For example, in the hands of the riders at GMBN fat bikes were quite faster on flat to slightly down hill singletrack than a full sus trail bike.
> I find this to be the true for me and the fat bike is quite faster then my full sus on flatter, twisty singletrack. Now, on steeper trails, more open high speed trails or chunk then the full sus is definitely faster.
> 
> View attachment 1991714


Cool vid 👍👍


----------



## socal_jack (Dec 30, 2008)

speedygz said:


> One thing I'm actually considering, out of curiosity mainly, is trying a boost fork with a 2.6-2.8 tyre on my 650b. Two reasons, one for cornering traction, and the other is just to see if it rides softer and smoother.


Won't work like you think


----------



## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

socal_jack said:


> Won't work like you think


And what, exactly, am I thinking?


----------



## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

speedygz said:


> One thing I'm actually considering, out of curiosity mainly, is trying a boost fork with a 2.6-2.8 tyre on my 650b. Two reasons, one for cornering traction, and the other is just to see if it rides softer and smoother.


Change the weight bias method you are used to using and it may just work out very well.


----------



## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

BansheeRune said:


> Change the weight bias method you are used to using and it may just work out very well.


Yeah, getting close to a 29er diameter, and no one grizzles about that. (mullets) Went and had a quick measure, a 3" tyre would "just" squeeze into my standard forks I think, a 2.6" should fall in. Run a bit lower pressure, and it will take that initial harshness out of it, give better rollover (unless all the 29er advocates are fibbing) & give better traction. When pushing the front into corners. All for the cost of a tyre. Can't see what's not to like.
Incidentally, I just ordered myself a Carbon 27.2 seatpost and reducer to suit, I'll be real interested to see just how much different it feels riding it back to back with the 31.6 Carbon one I have now. I could throw the alloy 27.2 in out of my XC bike, might try that after the Carbon one for comparison sake. All good fun anyway😁😁 Much more fun actually doing it, than reading about it for sure


----------



## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

speedygz said:


> Yeah, getting close to a 29er diameter, and no one grizzles about that. (mullets) Went and had a quick measure, a 3" tyre would "just" squeeze into my standard forks I think, a 2.6" should fall in. Run a bit lower pressure, and it will take that initial harshness out of it, give better rollover (unless all the 29er advocates are fibbing) & give better traction. When pushing the front into corners. All for the cost of a tyre. Can't see what's not to like.
> Incidentally, I just ordered myself a Carbon 27.2 seatpost and reducer to suit, I'll be real interested to see just how much different it feels riding it back to back with the 31.6 Carbon one I have now. I could throw the alloy 27.2 in out of my XC bike, might try that after the Carbon one for comparison sake. All good fun anyway😁😁 Much more fun actually doing it, than reading about it for sure


All about experimenting and sorting out what improvements are lurking in the shadows. Annnnnd, it's good times!


----------



## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

BansheeRune said:


> All about experimenting and sorting out what improvements are lurking in the shadows. Annnnnd, it's good times!


Absolutely. My bike is in a constant state of flux. Not because it has to be, but simply because I enjoy it. I have as much fun tinkering and changing/experimenting with components, fit etc, as riding. And lets face it, it's not like we're playing for cattle stations or anything. You can build, test and evaluate something, long term that suits, pleases or works for you, at your own leisure, with your own two hands. Without a ton of money thrown at it. Fabulous fun, and enormously satisfying.


----------



## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

speedygz said:


> Absolutely. My bike is in a constant state of flux. Not because it has to be, but simply because I enjoy it. I have as much fun tinkering and changing/experimenting with components, fit etc, as riding. And lets face it, it's not like we're playing for cattle stations or anything. You can build, test and evaluate something, long term that suits, pleases or works for you, at your own leisure, with your own two hands. Without a ton of money thrown at it. Fabulous fun, and enormously satisfying.


That is what makes it worthy. There are so many items that come about and give us the opportunity to try some little change and bring a little more fun to the scene. JustJ did a terrific thread with his WaltWorks Ultimate Warrior thread where he was continually experimenting and sharing his experiences. Followed that too.

My Middlechild is a bin build. Bought the frame and fork, everything else from the bins. Just love it as a singlespeed and doing minor tweaks here and there has been entertaining. 

You are spot on. Much can be done on the cheap.


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

Absolutely a lot of variables to play with. Rim width will have an impact on how low you can go with the 2.8 tire. 
The biggest impact comes from your fork. A tunable damper fork like a Manitou is a big variable.


----------



## HVACMTN (Jan 2, 2021)

Ymmv...have ridden "everything" since 1985. A custum built "brew" was the ticket. Made to banshee paradox 3 specs, it is steel and cost the same as a regular banshee. Waay smoother than my previous middlechild as well as my ti frame. Reminds me of rhe old kona tange prestuge ultralight I had. I run it singlespeed and it kills my stanton switch9er in frame lightness, response and overall compliance...this is with same tires etc...
I have owned many fs bikes but a hardtail is my jam. After sooo many hatdtails the brew has nailed the late 80's and early 90's feel of amazing steel feel like my past brodie/kona/breezer/dekerf frames. I'm 57 if that matters and brew used no seatstay nor chainstay bridges....as should be...a sublime ride few know about.


----------



## HEMIjer (Jul 17, 2008)

speedygz said:


> Get yourself some cheap Chinese carbon straight bars, ditch the dropper post and fit the thinnest seat post you can, preferably carbon again,


This just No again I repeat No. Handlebar and Seatpost buy something known and reliable. Not going to even defend why because well I dont have to and on rigid bike non the less when not if when you excerpt some extra force taking serious risk. Not saying all are bad but do you really know?


----------



## speedygz (May 12, 2020)

HEMIjer said:


> This just No again I repeat No. Handlebar and Seatpost buy something known and reliable. Not going to even defend why because well I dont have to and on rigid bike non the less when not if when you excerpt some extra force taking serious risk. Not saying all are bad but do you really know?


Yes, I really do know, because I load test them before installation. Here's a pic








If they can handle that, with no creaks or cracking, they're good to go. Test them once a year if that makes you happy. I've got a set on one of my bikes that have survived better than me after being run over by a 4WD. Tested okay, still going strong 3 years later. Me, not so much.


----------



## centershot (Nov 21, 2008)

And the Winner Is.............................a 2022 Kona Hei Hei CR. LBS made me a deal that I just couldn't refuse. Should be here Friday so I should be rolling by the weekend. Hopefully it will full fill the wish for a smoother ride without sacrificing efficiency.


----------



## Space Robot (Sep 13, 2008)

Happy new bike day!

I’ve been waiting on my LBS to build up a carbon Tallboy they’ve had in the back for weeks so I can test it out. Not like I can afford it right now, lol.


----------



## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

centershot said:


> And the Winner Is.............................a 2022 Kona Hei Hei CR. LBS made me a deal that I just couldn't refuse. Should be here Friday so I should be rolling by the weekend. Hopefully it will full fill the wish for a smoother ride without sacrificing efficiency.


That sounds like a great choice you made!


----------



## minimusprime (May 26, 2009)

Great choice. 40yr here, way too many moto, crotch rocket, mtb and sports accidents in my knees, ankles and lower back. I still go back and try to ride a hard tail every few years... because they are fun. The truth is, I am not able to ride for as long of a distance or as often if I have a hardtail that's in the regular location. Granted, I ride like I'm still 25, and I live in a very unforgiving area for hardtail riding (laguna ca)...

regarding making hardtails softer... the last hard tail build I did was was a santacruz chameleon MX build with a 27.5 x 2.8 rear and a 29x2.6 front, with Cushcore in the back. That ended up being one of the most forgiving hardtail builds I've ever had, but it was still a bit brutal for me once I hit 3ish hours in the saddle. Truth be told, I liked cushcore in that experiment so much, that I now have it in all of my bikes in the rear tire at a minimum, and both f/r in my hard hitting bikes. I run nearly the same pressures as I otherwise would (-1 psi in back then usual and -2 in front) but the vibration damping, side wall support and as a result, trail/grip feedback to the rider makes it not only a comfort improvement, but also a performance improvement. YMMV.

FWIW: I still run CC XC in the rear tire of my XC Marathon race bike.


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

Seconding foam in tires. They are a great upgrade. Especially in hardtails. I have been using tannus tubeless and tubolight for a couple years now.


----------



## #/er (Apr 4, 2021)

Ok, I’m 57 and not especially hardcore so I’ll just suggest you need to harden the f*** up


----------



## cassieno (Apr 28, 2011)

I don't really know what Viagra has to do with a bike ride


----------



## flanman (Feb 12, 2008)

cassieno said:


> I don't really know what Viagra has to do with a bike ride


Buddy of mine was in a group of 3 leading a gravel hill climb a few years ago - Masters cat 4. One of the other guys admitted he had taken a viagra and a couple of pep pills just beforehand. They steered well clear of him. Think he came second.


----------



## AgentX (Jul 11, 2005)

flanman said:


> Think he came second.


To be fair, that pill is designed to make sure you don't come first.


----------



## Corentino (5 mo ago)

Hi, have you seen the new Lee Cougan Rampage Innova??

Lee Cougan Rampage Innova is a 30mm travel XC bike with a carbon leaf spring


----------



## J_Westy (Jan 7, 2009)

Space Robot said:


> Has anyone traded their 29er hardtail for a fat bike? Or is it too sluggish on xc trails? I’ve wanted to try out a Surly Ice Cream Truck for a while just for kicks.





sgltrak said:


> I sold my fat bike after a year because it was so slow and sluggish.


I sold my hardtail and ride fat (with front suspension) year-round.

~10% slower, but I'm not trying to keep up on a group-ride and there's always someone faster. The sure-footed traction is addicting and forgiving for an old guy - only 55 ;-)

My fully really only comes out when the fat fork is in for service or I need the 10% to keep up with certain friends. I find it boring to be honest.


----------



## J_Westy (Jan 7, 2009)

#/er said:


> Ok, I’m 57 and not especially hardcore so I’ll just suggest you need to harden the f*** up


Rule #5 






Velominati – Keepers of the Cog







www.velominati.com


----------



## Space Robot (Sep 13, 2008)

J_Westy said:


> I sold my hardtail and ride fat (with front suspension) year-round.
> 
> ~10% slower, but I'm not trying to keep up on a group-ride and there's always someone faster. The sure-footed traction is addicting and forgiving for an old guy - only 55 ;-)
> 
> My fully really only comes out when the fat fork is in for service or I need the 10% to keep up with certain friends. I find it boring to be honest.


Nice! What bike and fork are you running? I just turned 50 myself. Going back and forth between getting a fatty or FS for my next bike.


----------



## J_Westy (Jan 7, 2009)

Space Robot said:


> Nice! What bike and fork are you running? I just turned 50 myself. Going back and forth between getting a fatty or FS for my next bike.


Nothing latest greatest, but a '17 C'dale Fat Caad with a Lefty Olaf fork. Jumbo Jims in the summer and Studded Dillinger 5's in the icy part of winter.

Tires and Pressure are everything when it comes to fat handling, so just saying "slow and sluggish" without the details means nothing.

The links above with "Are Fat Bikes Fast" comparisons say they're really not so slow depending on the terrain.

Rent / Borrow a decent one with a decent fork and see what you think.


----------



## Potential Roadkill (Nov 5, 2004)

My vote goes to the Pro-Caliber, that whole Iso-Speed thing they have going on gives some nice bump compliance, it's light, nimble and fun. I do wonder how many bounce cycles I'll get out of that carbon fiber before my fatness causes it to give up the ghost.


----------



## 2sharp7 (Aug 29, 2013)

Neuhaus Metalworks Hummingbird. I only got an hour on one of these, but it was so much more compliant than the hardtail I've been riding, I was...WOW.





Hummingbird — Neuhaus Metalworks







www.neuhausmetalworks.com


----------



## 325racer (Oct 31, 2011)

Went from a full rigid china carbon or Santa Cruz High Tower 27.5+ to a Nordest Bardino 3 with Lyric 160 fork. The Nordest feels like a short travel FS compared to the full rigid.


----------



## Funoutside (Jul 17, 2019)

How are you liking the Versus tires?


----------



## 325racer (Oct 31, 2011)

So far so good. Not related to these tires, I have confidence issues on leaning the bike over and using the side knobs. (Previous crashes from tires washing out on loose over hard)


----------



## Darthur (4 mo ago)

My new Specialized Chisel rides like butter, and it didn't break the bank. Shockingly supple rear triangle. 
Interested to see how it feels overall when I get my rigid fork.


----------



## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

Darthur said:


> My new Specialized Chisel rides like butter, and it didn't break the bank. Shockingly supple rear triangle.
> Interested to see how it feels overall when I get my rigid fork.


I have one as well, crazy how supple it rides. I keep worrying when will it snap! So far so good after 2 years. It begs to be ridden hard and faster you go more supple it gets.


----------

