# how to try new things



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

before I spent quite a lot of money on a new frame, I'd like to know with some confidence that I'll not regret the purchase. that's happened to me before and I don't want to repeat that experience. I'm curious how some of you chose the bike you now ride and enjoy if you did not have the luxury of a test ride, considering the following suggestions that usually come up:

"test ride a lot of bikes." in a perfect world, we'd be able to test ride everything. I've checked, and no one demos any variety of steel hardtails or rigid bikes, at least not near me. I can demo some e-bikes and carbon fiber FS trail bikes, but not any sort of variety of modern hardtail. that's not very useful.
"get a bike fit." been there, done that. sitting and pedaling on a stationary bike with cameras, lasers, motion-capture gizmos, and someone eyeballing your knees can provide a great result for sitting and pedaling in a straight line. my whole experience of mountain biking is doing everything to _avoid_ sitting and pedaling in a straight line, so I don't see how a bike fitting helps me understand how a bike behaves when the trail points up, down, around a corner, over a jump, and floating over rock gardens.
"get a custom frame." that's generally outside of what I can justify paying, although the potential that I might ride that bike for many years instead of buying something new every few years might be a worthwhile investment. then again, I have to REALLY trust that the designer understands my terrain, riding style, body proportions and limitations.
"study the frame geometry to find out what you like." I called a textbook case of Dunning-Kruger Effect (ignorance) on myself when I recently realized how far I am from understanding bike fit and handling. This is after years of reading on the subject and feeling quite confident that I had some answers. I realized that I don't know what I want. every manufacturer and every rider has a different understanding of what works best, so I just feel adrift at this point when I look at numbers or read reviews of bikes.


----------



## mike_kelly (Jul 18, 2016)

I think the problem is that bike geometry is changing constantly. It has plagued me as well. My only reference point now is an old bike that fit well that I can measure and compare that way. All the old measurement systems are obsolete these days. Good Luck


----------



## pushinpixels (Jul 4, 2007)

I purchased sight unseen, Specialized Enduro without a test ride in 2020. I felt confident enough to do this because I knew exactly what I wanted to achieve from my next bike. I figured out over the years the qualities most important to me. Pedal amazingly well and crush DH. This took away the anxiety of placing a big deposit down and waiting a few months. Good luck!


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

pushinpixels said:


> I figured out over the years the qualities most important to me.


how did you achieve this? over the past ten years, I've owned ten different hardtail/ rigid singlespeed bikes. I still have no idea what I want.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Ask the opinion of riders you trust.

I don’t trust anybody who I haven’t seen ride a bike. I need to know that someone is competent in the riding style that I do before I will trust anything they say about a bike.

At the same time bikes are pretty good nowadays. If you buy a bike intended for the trails that you ride then you are probably getting a good bike. The problems arrive when you try and make a bike work on trails it wasn’t designed for.


----------



## pushinpixels (Jul 4, 2007)

Figuring out those qualities required me to take a step back and realize where my riding is weakest. My goal has always been to keep up - sometimes surpass my riding buddies on a 3+ hour ride. All my friends moved to Enduro bikes over the last few years. I knew uphills on my trailbike were fine, but DH I was getting dropped way off into the distance. I'm always a bit apprehensive about technical DH and my Enduro bike has helped me to overcome most of it. I feel faster and more confident riding with my friends now. I'm at or near top of the pack most days.


----------



## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

I look at the geo and see if the bike will fit, after that I just take a leap of faith. If the bike doesn't work for me then I sell it. Other riders opinions are great if they look for the same things you do in a bikes performance. Two very good riders could want different setups and feel. 

Mack turtle, After all those bikes, you must know what you don't like and what works for you. What kind of riding do you enjoy? What do you like when you are out on the trail? Sometimes you have to step out of what is comfortable, be willing to make a mistake when trying something new. 

For a rigid bike, I usually like a short wheelbase that I can throw around twisty narrow trails. The frame I just ordered has a WB 50mm+ longer than what I usually ride. It is the length of my FS bike. I am hoping that it will provide a little more stability over my other rigid, but still turns well. Time will tell if it works for me.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

yeah, in an ideal world you'd be able to try everything. obviously doesn't work that way IRL, and especially when a lot of things are unavailable and you have to order whatever it is you want and wait for it to be built.

one thing I've found that has helped over the years is to at least try a few things to get some reference points. don't look at any geo numbers until you have a feeling for a given bike. try to use those numbers to help you anticipate what an unridden bike with known geo numbers will feel like. it's not precise, but it has been helpful to me when I couldn't test ride the bike in question.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

good questions, all.

what I like is riding technical, lumpy, bumpy uphills. I don't care if the bike is good for fast, long downhills and jumping because I don't do any of that. while watching videos of Brandon Semeuk or whoever is fun, Chris Akrigg and Jeff Lenosky inspire me the most. ledges and trials-y stuff is fun and I am kind of good at it. when I see newer bikes with long rear-centers and low BBs, I get the feeling that I would hate those because they would be an even bigger chore to bunnyhop and maneuver over rock-crawling terrain than what I have now. it seems like a short-ish wheelbase, short back end, and high BB accommodate that type of riding best. that's why I have a Karate Monkey.

where my riding seems to fall short is any sort of flat turn (I have to brake a lot or risk the front tire washing out), and bigger drops. I've tried every cornering technique in the book, different tires, and moved my handlebar around. that front tire just wants to slide out from under me on any surface after years of trying to improve my technique. I am, of course, open to gaining skills, but I don't want a bike that fights me for control the whole way. my experience and advice I read about bike fit are often contradictory.

I have to slide my saddle forward on the rails quite a bit to get "on top of" the cranks due to the slacked out seat tube on this bike, so I also have to run a "long" 70mm stem so the seated pedaling position is not so cramped that it hurts my back.

Any number of frames on the market have some of those features, but numbers on paper don't tell me subjective ride characteristics. other riders' reviews contradict one another as well.


----------



## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

What about the bike that Jeff rides








ReDikyelous - REEB Cycles


FRAME HIGHLIGHTS New Updated geometry and sizing for 2021! REEB designed custom steel tubeset for optimal lightweight, strength and stiffness Size specific chainstays - 410mm on small and medium, 420mm large and xl In-house designed and machined chainstay yoke for maximum tire clearance and...




reebcycles.com




The seat angle on the KM is very relaxed, this would be more upright. The reeb will have a longer front center and slacker head angle. 

I find that when the front tire washes out around corners, its because I am turning the bars instead of leaning the bike


----------



## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

mack_turtle said:


> good questions, all.
> 
> what I like is riding technical, lumpy, bumpy uphills. I don't care if the bike is good for fast, long downhills and jumping because I don't do any of that. while watching videos of Brandon Semeuk or whoever is fun, Chris Akrigg and Jeff Lenosky inspire me the most. ledges and trials-y stuff is fun and I am kind of good at it. when I see newer bikes with long rear-centers and low BBs, I get the feeling that I would hate those because they would be an even bigger chore to bunnyhop and maneuver over rock-crawling terrain than what I have now. it seems like a short-ish wheelbase, short back end, and high BB accommodate that type of riding best. that's why I have a Karate Monkey.
> 
> ...


This describes the style of next bike i want to add to the quiver. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) it is probably a few years out. Right now Salsa Timberjack, Esker Hayduke and Honzo ST are on the list. So is Reeb Dykulus2 but its more than twice the cost of the others. I’ll just keep scanning threads and poking questions about which bike is best for a trialsy, trail ridable, single/multi speed convertible frame.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Reeb would be high on my list, but I can't understand why it's so expensive without the sliding dropouts. that's a $2,500+ steel frame. I can get a Chumba Sendero (if I could afford it) for nearly $1,000 less, and those are made five miles from my house.


----------



## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

mack_turtle said:


> Reeb would be high on my list, but I can't understand why it's so expensive without the sliding dropouts. that's a $2,500+ steel frame. I can get a Chumba Sendero (if I could afford it) for nearly $1,000 less, and those are made five miles from my house.


Very low volume and high quality i guess. Havent seen one up close in person yet. Problem is i live 20 miles from reeb which sure makes it tempting to take a look at one. But then i would be saving $ for a lot longer if I decided that i need one!


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Monty219 said:


> Esker Hayduke


Japhy might be closer but that BB drop is deep. that's high on my list as well. I think I know someone who is riding a rigid one now but I need to double check.


----------



## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

I’m cheating, since I know you. And I know the trails you ride. 

I’ve been through close to the same number of hardtails as you in a similar timeframe. And I tend to like the same characteristics in frames/bikes…

I think your generalized “short rear end, higher BB, longer front” is pretty spot on for me, too. And I think you’re going to have a hard time getting exactly what you (or I) would want in the newest crop of single speedable frames. They’re pretty much all too long, low and slack (HTA and STA), and/or designed for a 140mm+ fork.

I was lucky because I had two bikes that I loved certain things about. 1) Black Cat rigid SS (super short rear end, crazy flickable), but too short a WB to easily navigate big techy climbs and drops, and it didn’t fit big tires. 2) OG Krampus rigid SS (stable, big-tire capability, relatively nimble because I ran a shorter A:C fork than stock), but too long a rear end, and I was sick of the track ends.

So I had Walt build a best of both bikes for me for my 50th.

3 years later and I’m having him build another right now. Basically a better (for me) Japhy…. It’ll have a shorter rear end, higher BB, steeper HTA, slacker STA and room to slam a 2.6. If I could’ve bought this frame off the rack, I would have. The Myth Talos might be the closest production thing out there. And maybe a Sendero Ti.

You’re welcome to check out my bikes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

mack_turtle said:


> how to try new things


Remember curiosity is natural and that everyone starts somewhere. Try a few stiff drinks, or a popper, and don't think too hard about the details of what's about to happen. Most of all relax! At first it might be uncomfortable or hurt, but you may very well grow to like it.

Wait - what forum is this? Oh gawd, this is about bikes?? I'll show myself out...


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

CCSS said:


> I’m cheating, since I know you. And I know the trails you ride.
> 
> ...
> 
> You’re welcome to check out my bikes.


I should have just asked you. I think you're taller than me, so your bikes might be set up a little bigger. maybe with a stem swap, they would fit me. most likely, I'll just wait until I get this "new job" [_fingers crossed]_ and buy a Sendero (steel) and join the club.


----------



## ladljon (Nov 30, 2011)

Maybe U should watch or contact services of Hardtail Party on the tube....Me personally my height 5'0", can't just buy a off the rack bike, so I have had four custom bikes built. Still love and ride three. Took awhile to get one bike to perform the way I needed....it was just the fork. Changed the fork and rides and handles to my expectations....


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

ladljon said:


> Maybe U should watch or contact services of Hardtail Party on the tube....Me personally my height 5'0", can't just buy a off the rack bike, so I have had four custom bikes built. Still love and ride three. Took awhile to get one bike to perform the way I needed....it was just the fork. Changed the fork and rides and handles to my expectations....


I love his videos and I appreciate all the work that goes into them. I've subscribed and watched nearly everything he's put out. he clearly has very different preferences and rides very different trails from what we have in central Texas, so I have to take everything with a grain of salt. I told him that, like him, I rode BMX, and he referenced the feeling of flowing with through a rhythm section of jumps. I've never done that as I was a flatland and street rider. I spent a lot of time at the local trails (Harcourt Trails in Indianapolis, which I'm pretty sure have been plowed, RIP) and spent all my time digging and shooting photos. the last time I tried to actually jump anything, I thrashed my ankle so badly that I could not walk without crutches for a month. very different experiences and very different preferences.


----------



## socal_jack (Dec 30, 2008)

I only use about 4 specs, but STA steepish, HTA slackish, BB sensible drop, the rest works itself out with parts.

From one vid to another on hardtail party I've seen some non sensical ****.especially concerning stack and riser bars, YMMV. I mean same stuff you see when reviewers get free stuff.


----------



## BrianU (Feb 4, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> where my riding seems to fall short is any sort of flat turn (I have to brake a lot or risk the front tire washing out), and bigger drops. I've tried every cornering technique in the book, different tires, and moved my handlebar around. that front tire just wants to slide out from under me on any surface after years of trying to improve my technique. I am, of course, open to gaining skills, but I don't want a bike that fights me for control the whole way. my experience and advice I read about bike fit are often contradictory.
> 
> I have to slide my saddle forward on the rails quite a bit to get "on top of" the cranks due to the slacked out seat tube on this bike, so I also have to run a "long" 70mm stem so the seated pedaling position is not so cramped that it hurts my back.
> 
> Any number of frames on the market have some of those features, but numbers on paper don't tell me subjective ride characteristics. other riders' reviews contradict one another as well.


One of the things about the KM is that its geo is relatively conservative by today's standards, so a 70mm stem is not really "long" and is what comes stock on the factory built medium frames. I have no experience with suspension forks on the KM, but I know that most common lengths will bring the front end up and slightly back as compared to the rigid fork I run on mine. I guess this would also affect the STA angle as well, slackening it out even more. I am 5'6" with a 30" inseam and ride a medium KM. I run a 60mm stem on top of one 15mm spacer with a set of 30mm riser bars cut to 760mm and this puts the grips about level with the top of my saddle. The saddle is mounted right in center on the dropper post and this feels good to me. If I was running gears and could stay in the saddle for steep climbs, I know I would have to get on the nose of the saddle, but since I am running SS, this is not an issue. I actually prefer it, as I would think some of the very steep STAs would have the saddle in the way on steep climbs. I feel that my KM fits me well and it does rail turns. I know that you are a couple inches taller than me, but even so, it is interesting that you have these problems. From the way you mount your saddle and try to fit the bike, you do sound like you would work better with something long and a steep STA.

It does sound like you and CCSS look for the same characteristics, so trying his bike might help you figure out what really works for you. I know I definitely would want to know that before dropping the coin on something like a Sendero. BTW...good luck on getting the new job.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I feel like such a goober going on and on about this, but if I don't post it here, I just end up talking to myself!

@BrianU indeed, the KM geometry is ... unique. when built with a 140mm fork, it kind of looks like one of those early '00s freeride bikes with the front end way up in the air, the BB up high, and the seat tube pointed way back. I wonder if I would come alive in good ways with mixed size wheels and a shorter fork. I dropped mine to 120mm for this reason. I don't have the resources to play with that many options.

Yes, @CCSS and I ride together sometimes. I'll check with his bikes next time.

for all it's faults as a short-reach and heavy frame, my brief experience with a Niner ROS9 showed me that I really liked the EBB. it didn't slip or creak and it allowed me to move the BB around and thus change the reach, CSL, BB drop, STA by quite a bit. my next frame might have an EBB just for that reason. I wish I had experimented with it more. makes me wonder if a low BB would be better for me _if _the bike also has a short chainstay. I think Walt built something like that.

I keep wanting to master numbers on a page, but I just need to try new things. there's a huge mtb community where I live, so there are certainly some people with different bikes I can borrow to try them out. to that end, what are a few bikes I should try to ride to get an idea how different geo aspects affect how a bike rides? something that would be different enough from the KM, and assuming the owner would let me move the saddle and handlebar position, would teach me something new? Honzo, Stache, Unit, etc?


----------



## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

If you like EBB, the Niner Air 9 might be a way to go, more conservation front end with short stays.









AIR 9


The affordable AIR 9 aluminum hardtail bike blends the agile efficiency of a pedal-friendly XC bike with the toughness and capability of a trail rig.




www.ninerbikes.com


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

For new things rim width and tire pressure are a couple to try for cornering. What rim width are you using for a front?


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

eb1888 said:


> For new things rim width and tire pressure are a couple to try for cornering. What rim width are you using for a front?


what haven't I tired? ha! currently a Flow rim with a 2.6" tire. 20 psi with an insert and I still get rim strikes and punctured tires. I've used a few 2.3-2.4" tires.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mack_turtle said:


> what haven't I tired? ha! currently a Flow rim with a 2.6" tire. 20 psi with an insert and I still get rim strikes and punctured tires. I've used a few 2.3-2.4" tires.



I don't doubt you but I couldn't imagine getting rim strikes with a 2.6 at that pressure even when gunning for a kom on chunky terrain. I'm only a buck-fifty though.

Puncture? What's that? 🙃


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't doubt you but I couldn't imagine getting rim strikes with a 2.6 at that pressure even when gunning for a kom on chunky terrain. I'm only a buck-fifty though.
> 
> Puncture? What's that? 🙃


Central Texas trails are basically a series of rock gardens and ledges. there's no avoiding thrashing tires and rims. I am lucky I don't trash rims often, but many people go through rims faster than they go through grips.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I’ve made a few mistakes when building up hardtail a, but mostly because I want one but they always beat me up … so then I sell it and the cycle repeats 

I was trying to build a compromise jump/pump/trials bike, went through a few frames until I got my current configuration 👍

I’ve certainly experimented with novel suspension pieces (linkage forks) but I knew what I was getting into in those cases.

The only real mistake I’ve made was buying a high pivot trail bike. I got a Druid after reading the hype, rode it for a month and sold it. The Druid is the only fs bike I haven’t ridden for a season other than the full suspension Stache which I loved but it suffered from serious chainstay flex.

Demos are nice if you can find them.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mack_turtle said:


> Central Texas trails are basically a series of rock gardens and ledges. there's no avoiding thrashing tires and rims. I am lucky I don't trash rims often, but many people go through rims faster than they go through grips. ok, that's an exaggeration, but this terrain is not kind to bikes.




I can relate, AZ and NM are not lacking in rocks & ledges either.


----------



## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

Liking this post. I am in a similar situation trying to find my next build. Everything I come across numbers always look close but one GEO number just to off for me. Similar to you, I keep coming back to just save up for a Sendero frame. Thou even that has a few things just a bit off. To figure out my next build I have ridden all my 3 current hard tails on my most biked trail and tried to make notes of each pro's and cons of each. Then also thought which bike seemed like the most versatile overall. I really wish my Nimble 9 and Surly Krampus would have a baby, LOL! Thou the new nimble 9 Frame is close, but again one Geo number is to far for me on that, the STA is just to steep for me. I picked up a Specialized Chisel to have a geared bike over a year ago. With a 120 fork on it Geo is similar to the Sendero, really love how balanced it is. Just wish it had Slider to make an SS version and the BB would be higher like the Sendero. Thus back again to the Sendero!


----------



## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

SSsteel4life said:


> Liking this post. I am in a similar situation trying to find my next build. Everything I come across numbers always look close but one GEO number just to off for me. Similar to you, I keep coming back to just save up for a Sendero frame. Thou even that has a few things just a bit off. To figure out my next build I have ridden all my 3 current hard tails on my most biked trail and tried to make notes of each pro's and cons of each. Then also thought which bike seemed like the most versatile overall. I really wish my Nimble 9 and Surly Krampus would have a baby, LOL! Thou the new nimble 9 Frame is close, but again one Geo number is to far for me on that, the STA is just to steep for me. I picked up a Specialized Chisel to have a geared bike over a year ago. With a 120 fork on it Geo is similar to the Sendero, really love how balanced it is. Just wish it had Slider to make an SS version and the BB would be higher like the Sendero. Thus back again to the Sendero!


Don’t compromise. If you know what you want (and clearly you do), go custom. The difference in price between a Sendero and a Waltworks is negligible over a couple years, and the wait for a WW might actually be shorter right now. And there are plenty of other custom shops…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## #/er (Apr 4, 2021)

Ok who wants to buy this new frame?
It hits most of what you guys are saying: high bottom bracket, moderate head tube angle (68.5 degrees) and moderate seat tube angle (saddle nose is about 40mm behind vertical line through BB center with saddle at 29 inches from BB center). The tires shown are 29x2.6 on 35mm internal rims.
Help find it a home either complete or frame only


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

I read the geo chart and reviews. I'll also talk to the folks that make the frame. It's pretty rare I get something that isn't really good. That said I just moved on from a frame I rode for over a year because while it was a good option it wasn't amazing. The new frame is next level.

That said taking some chances and trying new things informs each subsequent bike. If you can't accept some risk that the frame you buy won't work then buying sight unseen isn't for you and you should stick to options you can demo.

When I buy I also give myself permission to sell the frame if it's not what I want. I had one experience where I did two rides on a new frame and sold it. As long as the parts swap easily to a new frame I consider a failure once in a while an acceptable cost. It's not much more than I would spend to say drive to a demo event to try something.

Most of my friends can't handle this ^^^ so they buy whatever they can find at a LBS. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

vikb said:


> If you can't accept some risk that the frame you buy won't work then buying sight unseen isn't for you and you should stick to options you can demo.


at this point, I am just plain asking people around me to borrow their bikes. maybe I missed something, but I've never seen a hardtail at a demo. they only demo and rent the super high-end FS bikes. have any of you demoed a hardtail outside of a big bike festival like Outer Bike?

I've taken a lot of risks and it really strains my budget. I want to finally feel confident with a purchase and not get "stuck" with a bike for years.


----------



## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

mack_turtle said:


> at this point, I am just plain asking people around me to borrow their bikes. maybe I missed something, but I've never seen a hardtail at a demo. they only demo and rent the super high-end FS bikes. have any of you demoed a hardtail outside of a big bike festival like Outer Bike?
> 
> I've taken a lot of risks and it really strains my budget. I want to finally feel confident with a purchase and not get "stuck" with a bike for years.


Borrowing bikes from friends is a good strategy assuming they are riding stuff you are keen on.

You can demo hardtails where there are dealers. My LBS has Knolly Tyaughtons that I could demo if I wanted to. Other LBS have Surly bikes if I am willing to drive. The UK frame I am riding at the moment has a dealer several hours and a ferry ride away with some bikes [depends on your size/preferences].

Often there are owner's groups online and people willing to let you ride their bikes...again if you are prepared to travel to where they live.

So there are demo options, but unless you are after a very popular model you probably have to travel and if you are spending $250 to travel you could just order the frame and sell it if you don't like it for a loss like that. You are never "stuck" with a bike. If you buy a $1000 hardtail frame you can sell it for $750-$800 in newish condition and buy something else to hang your parts off of.

The only way to be really confident without spending money is to only buy what you can ride locally. Nothing wrong with that, but it does limit your options significantly especially for a less common niche like modern hardtails. I live in a popular MTB area I have have seen 3 or 4 nice hardtails in the 4 months I've been here. Slim pickings.


----------



## eb1888 (Jan 27, 2012)

mack_turtle said:


> what haven't I tired? ha! currently a Flow rim with a 2.6" tire. 20 psi with an insert and I still get rim strikes and punctured tires. I've used a few 2.3-2.4" tires.


A Flow is 29 inside. So undersized for a 2.6. 35 is considered a minimum to avoid squirm normally at the lower pressure for a front. But lots and lots of rocks/roots that require 20psi on a front to reduce rim hits can take away the lower pressure benefits for increased traction cornering from a wider tire. I'd want a 39 or 40 rim and 15 or less psi for a 120tpi sidewall true 2.6 to get traction. 50mm for a 3.0.
I think it would be interesting to see if your terrain could take a 3.0 on a 50mm rim on the front at low enough pressure to get good flat corner traction. Not cheap until you compare to a new bike.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Double post with my fat thumbs.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

FWIW, tire size and rim width have a correlation but no one agrees on the details. Stan's says the 29mm Flow rim is optimized for 2.8" tires. I guess someone should tell them!

Someone gave me this big old meaty 2.6 and it's excessive for my needs. Previous tires in smaller widths did not have a significant affect on the rest of the bike's behavior, so I'm not going to give it too much thought. Rim width is is a red herring in this context. I appreciate the advice and I'll probably go back to a smaller tire when the time to end this experiment comes.


----------



## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

I milk my ignorance. 

Unlike you I have a very limited range of bike model experience. Before buying my DragonSlayer I had about a half dozen rides on a dreadful cheapo bike, 2 hours on a rental Salsa Timberjack, and a couple parking lot laps on the DragonSlayer. Before ordering my Starling Murmur frame I had (about a year earlier) ridden roughly 100' on some Trek FS my friend had rented, without paying any real attention to anything about it. I love my DragonSlayer. I'm still building the Murmur, so I haven't been able to judge it yet, but I expect I will love it too. Maybe because they're the right bike for me, or maybe just because I don't know that there's something better out there . 😄


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Okay, so full suspension is not on the table due to cost?

There are lots of hardtails with good geo, but any new bike is going to be very different than a KM, so there will be an adjustment period.

BB's have dropped, but some bikes are still pretty high relatively speaking esp if you run a longer fork.

The Canfield Nimble 9 with a 140mm fork has a pretty high bb, sliding drops, short chainstays, not overly slack HTA. If you like short and agile, size down, I got a medium when I usually ride a large, it rode pretty well and did not feel too small; after building it, I decide to build a jump bike, so I'm selling it.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

mack_turtle said:


> at this point, I am just plain asking people around me to borrow their bikes. maybe I missed something, but I've never seen a hardtail at a demo. they only demo and rent the super high-end FS bikes. have any of you demoed a hardtail outside of a big bike festival like Outer Bike?
> 
> I've taken a lot of risks and it really strains my budget. I want to finally feel confident with a purchase and not get "stuck" with a bike for years.


Buy a frame that looks good, maybe go with used, build it, ride it, sell it or keep it.

Aren't you in the Tahoe area?


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Nurse Ben said:


> Okay, so full suspension is not on the table due to cost?
> 
> There are lots of hardtails with good geo, but any new bike is going to be very different than a KM, so there will be an adjustment period.
> 
> ...


I just have zero interest in dealing with suspension pivots and all that. I ride hardtails and the hardtail is not holding me back. FS would just piss me off. I've ridden a few at demos and I hated it. I'm in central Texas were short-travel 29ers are the choice for most riders. meh.

"good geo" is subjective. what works for me doesn't work for everyone I know, and certainly not people who ride in different parts of the planet. I have no frame of reference for how other riders' reviews apply to me, even after riding a bunch of "conservative" old school XC type bikes. would something "modern" be good for me? I can't justify the expense of experimenting any more.

Nimble Nine has been on my list of bikes to try, but the current version is designed around a much longer fork than I would ever want or need. I'm not going to blow all that money and then find out I hate it. (I'm not sure how some people can afford to do that.) No one anywhere nearby stocks them and they certainly aren't available for a test ride.

I've been buying, riding and selling frames at a rate of one per year. it's expensive and frustrating, but I should have learned a lot. I hesitate to buy anything nicer with the expectation that I'll probably start to hate it after six months and get 1/3 of what I paid for it when I sell it used. I feel that I've learned nothing. every time I buy a new frame, I enjoy it for a bit, then the feeling that it could be much better creeps in. so I'm taking notes, but nothing would compare to just riding bikes. that's why advice you hear from other riders is always "demo and test ride as many bikes as you can!" that's good advice, but the number of bikes that I would want to buy and that I can demo and test ride is zero. maybe that will change as hardtails gain popularity in the current trend.

it's kind of like my experience with photography when I learned to shoot b&w film, process the film in a darkroom, analyze the negs, print a contact sheet, print a few photos, then realize over the course of a week or more what I am doing wrong. all the while, spending tons of money on film, paper, chemicals, and if you have to pay darkroom access fees, it starts to feel not worth the effort. then digital photography and wham, bam. shoot the photo, look at it on the screen and the learning curve steepens fast! the cost goes down immensely as well. for the cost of a month of film and paper and chemicals, you can buy a decent used dslr and be done with spending money on the hobby for a long time.

I wish I had the level of peace that @looks easy from here has.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I've adapted to and grown to love every bike I've ever owned. Rarely have I test ridden any of them before buying. I am very picky about my bikes but a little research and review reading has always worked out fine.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

@J.B. Weld when you read reviews, how do you know how someone else's experience will be relevant to yours? what do you look for? have you ever read something that led you to believe that it would be great, then found out that it sucked... for you?


----------



## Bacon Fat (Mar 11, 2016)

mack_turtle said:


> I've been buying, riding and selling frames at a rate of one per year. it's expensive and frustrating, but I should have learned a lot. I hesitate to buy anything nicer with the expectation that I'll probably start to hate it after six months and get 1/3 of what I paid for it when I sell it used. I feel that I've learned nothing. every time I buy a new frame, I enjoy it for a bit, then the feeling that it could be much better creeps in. so I'm taking notes, but nothing would compare to just riding bikes.


I would make a excel of all your previous bikes and their geo, compare what you liked about each bike and what you didn't. See if there is a correlation with the geo. 

I have had a bunch of bikes, I don't think there is a perfect bike for everything, I have had rides when its the best bike ever to I should sell this. If you find a bike that fits, I don't think there are any bad bikes anymore. They will all do what they are designed to well, it just takes a little adaptation on the riders part. Some bike you just have to adapt less and that depends on the rider


----------



## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

Once you've built a frame up do you leave it at that, or do you fiddle around with things like chainstay length (assuming you've had a bike with sliding dropouts), anglesets, stem length, fork height, etc. to fine-tune fit and feel? Because I know I said I'm easy going, but at the same time I've changed every one of those things on my DragonSlayer to get it to where it feels now.


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Bacon Fat said:


> I would make a excel of all your previous bikes and their geo, compare what you liked about each bike and what you didn't. See if there is a correlation with the geo.


I've been doing this for years. I have an embarrassingly detailed spreadsheet. After 10 frames and a few thousand bucks, I am just starting to see some patterns. but those are numbers. I want to ride some bikes and stop f-ing around with theoreticals.



looks easy from here said:


> Once you've built a frame up do you leave it at that, or do you fiddle around with things like chainstay length (assuming you've had a bike with sliding dropouts), anglesets, stem length, fork height, etc. to fine-tune fit and feel? Because I know I said I'm easy going, but at the same time I've changed every one of those things on my DragonSlayer to get it to where it feels now.


you can do this to some degree, but you can't change certain things that are baked into the frame without adverse affects on the handling. my current bike has had several different stems on it and changing the gear combo affects the CSL. I've also had 140, 130, and now 120mm fork adjustments on it as I replaced the air spring shaft with shorter and shorter ones at each service. I would not want to put an angleset on it because the reach is already so short that I need to ride with a 70mm stem.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mack_turtle said:


> @J.B. Weld when you read reviews, how do you know how someone else's experience will be relevant to yours? what do you look for? have you ever read something that led you to believe that it would be great, then found out that it sucked... for you?



I guess I figure I'm not all that unique and if experienced riders mostly concur on certain ride qualities then I'll probably feel the same. Hasn't let me down yet and as mentioned I've rarely owned a bike I didn't love. Mostly I just love riding.


----------



## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

mack_turtle said:


> Nimble Nine has been on my list of bikes to try. I'm not going to blow all that money and then find out I hate it. (I'm not sure how some people can afford to do that.) No one anywhere nearby stocks them and they certainly aren't available for a test ride.


To bad you could not find someone in your area with the new nimble 9. Reading you preference it sounds like may be up your alley. The chain stay length is one of the more ideal for SSing. The short to long range gives you good options in keeping a shorter chain stay since start on the really short side. Can easily play with 32X20, 32X19 and 32X18 on it!

Not sure if you are against Aluminum frames, but I see the Honzo DL now has sliding dropouts!. Similar chain stay lengths as Nimble 9. And they offer it as a frame only for $599 if you can find one!


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

The current N9 is probably excessive for me. Maybe an older one, but I don't know what I would do with a 150mm fork. Putting a more reasonable fork for me on it would probably wreck the fitting (steep AF seat tube, mostly.)


----------



## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

mack_turtle said:


> The current N9 is probably excessive for me. Maybe an older one, but I don't know what I would do with a 150mm fork. Putting a more reasonable fork for me on it would probably wreck the fitting (steep AF seat tube, mostly.)


If you could do a 140 probably be good. But yes I agree as well, a Gen 3 or 4 would have been ideal. I have a Gen 2 which is really compact, love it for playful rides, but not good for long rides. Should have grabbed a 3 or 4 back then.

One other bike I am waiting on when they release frame only and more sizes is the Guerilla Gravity New Pedalhead. Looking at size 3 only posted numbers, thinking when they release a Size 2 would really like those numbers.


----------

