# why hate specialized?



## 73h 8r!110 (Jan 25, 2008)

Lately, i've heard a lot of people express their hate for specialized. Can someone please explain, i dont get it? Is specialized regarded as trendy; are they the "Wal-mart" of the biking industry. Someone throw me bone.

-brillo


----------



## Rick Moranis (Mar 23, 2007)

Why bring up old topics no one really cares about?


----------



## Coach417 (Jul 13, 2007)

Rick Moranis said:


> Why bring up old topics no one really cares about?


Why answer a post you don't care about?

OP, if you do a search, you'll get your answer.


----------



## Rick Moranis (Mar 23, 2007)

Coach417 said:


> Why answer a post you don't care about?


Being an a$$**** is fun sometimes. :thumbsup:

Seriously though, threads like these are so redundant.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Have a look through the threads I have started on my profile, it should tell you a lot about why I hate them, try the one with 77 posts.


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Imonna go out on a limb here...*



Rick Moranis said:


> Why bring up old topics no one really cares about?


... and maybe suggest that at least the original poster cares about it... that's why he asked the question. You don't have to answer if you are so offended by somebody just asking. 

They are kinda slimy towards their dealers, the prices are high, especially the high end stuff. For the price of thier high end stuff, you can actually save money by getting a boutique bike made in the USofA. Also, their 'lifetime warrranty' only applies to the front triangle of a full suspension frame. The whole rear triangle is considered 'suspension linkage' and falls under a 1 year warranty. You won't find the dealers mentioning that when you blow $4k on a new Stumpy.

That said, I think they make great products most of the time. I have a Stumpy FSR-XC and love it, and my wife has a Stumpy hardtail.


----------



## wheelbender6 (Sep 25, 2007)

Specialized is a huge innovator. That will sometimes make their bikes look trendy. 
Having said that, my only Specialized is a steel Globe commuter/cruiser.


----------



## Qatarbhoy (Jun 13, 2008)

a new Specialized dealer opened near me recently and i was amazed at the prices of their high-end stuff (the entry level bikes were as expected). i couldn't see how the frame was worth the difference given the unimpressive component spec.

nonetheless i'm glad to see another LBS opening and broadening the market.


----------



## trailguy (May 28, 2007)

How they price their product is their business. If you don't like it, take you business elsewhere. No reason to hate for something thats none of your business.


----------



## Jerk_Chicken (Oct 13, 2005)

Because people still remember the Stratos debacle.

As far as the dealers go, I can't be sympathetic when they don't meet S's lofty requirements because they signed for it and knew what they were getting into.

The pricing is crap. Buy a high end boutique frame, built with top end components, then save. What a bargain!


----------



## Qatarbhoy (Jun 13, 2008)

trailguy said:


> How they price their product is their business. If you don't like it, take you business elsewhere. No reason to hate for something thats none of your business.


I do take my business elsewhere as I'm in the market for better bikes these days and I want more for my money than Specialized offers. Doesn't mean I hate Specialized, I just won't pay that much for a relatively low-spec'd bike.


----------



## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=411118&highlight=hate+specialized
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=418179&highlight=hate+specialized
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=424683&highlight=hate+specialized

Happy reading.

JmZ


----------



## Qatarbhoy (Jun 13, 2008)

PS congratulations trailguy on your first post in over a year's membership of mtbr. glad you finally delurked over something!


----------



## Square Bladder (Mar 19, 2008)

73h 8r!110 said:


> Lately, i've heard a lot of people express their hate for specialized. Can someone please explain, i dont get it? Is specialized regarded as trendy; are they the "Wal-mart" of the biking industry. Someone throw me bone.
> 
> -brillo


- Because they run their business like a business, which pisses off the purists who think the bike industry should be one big, happy bro deal.

- Because they make a lot of bikes, which pisses off the purists who think all bikes should be made by hand in a monastary somewhere.

- Because they manufacture their frames overseas, which pisses off the purists who think there's something inherently special and wonderful about U.S. factories.

:thumbsup:


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Square Bladder said:


> - Because they run their business like a business, which pisses off the purists who think the bike industry should be one big, happy bro deal.
> 
> - Because they make a lot of bikes, which pisses off the purists who think all bikes should be made by hand in a monastary somewhere.
> 
> ...


And I'm the Giant rider that hates Spesh&#8230;


----------



## Upandatem (Apr 11, 2004)

Where's the dead horse pic?


----------



## bullit44777 (May 30, 2006)

I hate them because Razorfish hates the people who ride them...


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Upandatem said:


> Where's the dead horse pic?


You know this pic really is rather disgusting, a bit like Specialized's bikes actually&#8230;


----------



## spec4life (May 14, 2008)

Why the hate?

simple.....jealousy


----------



## trailguy (May 28, 2007)

*Right on!*

They know how to make a good bike and they know how to run a sucessful business. It can get kinda lonesome up there, being the leader of the pack. The leaders have always taken the heat, and it made them tougher. 
When they can't catch them, some people try to shoot them down.

Actually, this is a juvenile topic. The 'hate' word should be filtered from even showing up, for it serves no good purpose.

A good ride all!


----------



## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

spec4life said:


> Why the hate?
> 
> simple.....jealousy


That and some people are born to b*tch.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> You know this pic really is rather disgusting, a bit like Specialized's bikes actually&#8230;


Dude! Where did you find that picture?????

This is a true story.... In Jr. High school (15 years ago) I had an art teacher who was the biggest pain in the azz. I hated him. Anyway... he insisted that each class member paint a portrait of something for the final project. These portaits were to be displayed throughout the school for some big event (homecommming or something like that). Anyway.. I was flipping through Nat Geographic and found that picture or one very, very similar. So, I figured why the hell not. I spent three months painting a copy of that horribly ill picture with great detail. The teacher hated the fact I did that, but hey, "artistic expression" right? The best part is, I am from a horse town in South Dakota and they actually put that picture on the wall at school, well a wall in the back hallway....

Sorry to go on a tangent there,.... you just brought back an old memory! Thanks man!


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

spec4life said:


> Why the hate?
> 
> simple.....jealousy


Really, I've had one before and if someone was to give me the 09 S-works model free, do you know what I would do with it?

Sell it ASAP!!!:thumbsup:


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

sodak06 said:


> Dude! Where did you find that picture?????
> 
> This is a true story.... In Jr. High school (15 years ago) I had an art teacher who was the biggest pain in the azz. I hated him. Anyway... he insisted that each class member paint a portrait of something for the final project. These portaits were to be displayed throughout the school for some big event (homecommming or something like that). Anyway.. I was flipping through Nat Geographic and found that picture or one very, very similar. So, I figured why the hell not. I spent three months painting a copy of that horribly ill picture with great detail. The teacher hated the fact I did that, but hey, "artistic expression" right? The best part is, I am from a horse town in South Dakota and they actually put that picture on the wall at school, well a wall in the back hallway....
> 
> Sorry to go on a tangent there,.... you just brought back an old memory! Thanks man!


It turns up on basically every thread that goes over a topic already covered, beating a dead horse in other words, trust me it is not mine.


----------



## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

trailguy said:


> They know how to make a good bike and they know how to run a sucessful business. It can get kinda lonesome up there, being the leader of the pack. The leaders have always taken the heat, and it made them tougher.
> When they can't catch them, some people try to shoot them down.


leader in the US? Trek
leader globally? Giant

I don't think either brand has too many haters.


----------



## McDowell_Matt (Jan 31, 2006)

I don't hate Specialized... My road bike is a Roubaix...

I hate that they have a marketing dept. so completely void of common sense that even when the #1 rider from a team that they sponsor (Tom Boonen for Team Quickstep) is busted for Cocaine, they continue to run his commercial instead of loosing the money they spent to get that commercial made, and taking the ethical stance... NICE JOB... Promote Recreational Drugs & the S-works while you're at it...


----------



## fastale (Jul 2, 2007)

McDowell_Matt said:


> I don't hate Specialized... My road bike is a Roubaix...
> 
> I hate that they have a marketing dept. so completely void of common sense that even when the #1 rider from a team that they sponsor (Tom Boonen for Team Quickstep) is busted for Cocaine, they continue to run his commercial instead of loosing the money they spent to get that commercial made, and taking the ethical stance... NICE JOB... Promote Recreational Drugs & the S-works while you're at it...


They actually gave me an 8-ball when I bought my stumpy.


----------



## Wildeyes (Jun 14, 2007)

Same reason WalMart sucks. Specialized are an average bike sold for inflated margins to people who know nothing.

Why should I like Specialized? Just because they make a costly bike doesn't mean it is any good. And it doesn't mean that the bike is really that expensive. Dealers who jump in bed with these clowns get what they deserve, and they pass the pain on to the consumer.


----------



## fastale (Jul 2, 2007)

Upandatem said:


> Where's the dead horse pic?


yo up, who is your avi? I know I've seen him before. Does he like specialized?


----------



## Plats (Jun 18, 2008)

It sounds similar to the handgun blogs, lots of haters against kimber, cause they rose quickly to prominence with guns that run good due to tight manufacturing. I am on my 3rd Specialized (all have been sub $1000 hardtails) in the last decade. The LBS that represents them in my city got a real good business with salespeople that are helpful and nice. Lots of the other LBS's in town seem to ignore you or need some work on their conversation and sales skills. So, I was sold Specialized by friendly salespeople who also ride and seem to have faith in the brand. Eventually when I get in the market for my FS bike (~$3000, or so), I will definitely shop the other brands a little more closely. I mean really, for the sub $1000 hardtails for the recreational / beginner set, the competition is really tight and the bikes are pretty similar - and, Specialized definitely has a competitive product line in this segment.


----------



## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

Wildeyes said:


> Same reason WalMart sucks. Specialized are an average bike sold for inflated margins to people who know nothing.
> 
> Why should I like Specialized? Just because they make a costly bike doesn't mean it is any good. And it doesn't mean that the bike is really that expensive. Dealers who jump in bed with these clowns get what they deserve, and they pass the pain on to the consumer.


So what am I suppose to buy? If you say private American built bikes, well there's not a chance in hell that I'm going to travel 100 miles or fly to another state to buy American.


----------



## fastale (Jul 2, 2007)

Wildeyes said:


> Specialized are an average bike sold for inflated margins to people who know nothing.


Quite frankly sir, I don't know how to take that last comment.


----------



## scoutcat (Mar 30, 2008)

my only beef: too many logos on their products. they need to pay me for that much advertising.


----------



## warcricket (Mar 6, 2008)

fastale said:


> yo up, who is your avi? I know I've seen him before. Does he like specialized?


Jemaine Clement from flight of the conchords, yes.


----------



## chas_martel (May 14, 2006)

I hate that they route cables/hoses under the bottom bracket.

Why oh why do they do that. This one thing keeps me from
even demo'ing a Spec.


----------



## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

scoutcat said:


> my only beef: too many logos on their products. they need to pay me for that much advertising.


I agree, and the same thing for Cannondale.


----------



## PCinSC (Oct 25, 2005)

73h 8r!110 said:


> Lately, i've heard a lot of people express their hate for specialized. Can someone please explain, i dont get it?


Because they are the official bike supplier of the Dave Matthews Band, and everyone hates the Dave Matthews Band (check out the bike that their bass player "designed"). Except me, I like DMB and own two Specialized bikes.

Didn't pay full retail for them, though...and wouldn't.


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

I'm just going to gloss over the laundry list of reasons people legitimately hate specialized.

From day one, Specialized was a profit-at-any-cost scrappy beast with highly questionable ethics. Over the years, the only thing that's changed is their size and financial power. From the original Stumpjumper (which they "innovated" by ordering a couple Ritcheys from Tom, and then sent them directly to Taiwan to have mass produced) to their purchase of the innovative Horst Link, and then cutting off builders who had licenses to it, to the Stratos ordeal, to the Epic Cycles and Mountain Cycles debacles, resulting in so much litigation the companies went out of business, etc...

Specialized has been around for a long time, and there is a verrry long list of people and companies that they've driven to the brink of destruction or pushed over with their ultra-agressive maneuvering and posturing.

In constrast to the rest of the industry, where builders are competitors, but are still at very least, civilized, Specialized has a hard-earned reputation for being a$$holes.

Outside their inside-industry shenanigans, the only legitimate gripes are that their bikes all made overseas, but they still charge top dollar for them anyway, their warranty is hit or miss, and like Trek, they have a tendency for treating their dealers poorly, with over-agressive expectations, etc... 

It has less to do with everyone else being "just jealous", on account of Spec being really great innovators or some such ridiculous thing...

It's cool that they've gotten a lot of people on bikes, and the bikes don't totally suck to ride. But, they've probably pissed off more people than Trek due to their heavy-handed tactics in business. The bike biz just isn't that big that it warrants that kind of behavior.

Naturally, some will be upset to hear there are actual reasons people don't like the company that made their bike, and likely, they'll make big demands on this post. Sorry I'm not providing a 20 page report with sources, etc... I don't have time to get into it at any greater length here, and it's not my job. There is a ton of material out there, if you're really interested in the history of Specialized. If you want to look it all up, go ahead and do some digging.


----------



## Triple Threat (Feb 28, 2008)

You guys know that half of you " boutique bikes" are made in Taiwan right!


----------



## denmikseb (Aug 27, 2007)

73h 8r!110 said:


> Lately, i've heard a lot of people express their hate for specialized. Can someone please explain, i dont get it? Is specialized regarded as trendy; are they the "Wal-mart" of the biking industry. Someone throw me bone.
> 
> -brillo


 I'm glad you asked the question, because I wasn't aware there was a segment who HATES Specialized. I have looked at some of their bikes, but they are overpriced for me. If they don't treat their dealers right, the dealer should quite handling them; it really isn't our concern. On RBR, the mention of Motobecane will get some readers up in arms; I really don't care that they sell on-line instead of in a brick and mortar shop if I can get a good bike at a better price than the "brand names" (they actually do sell their bikes in at least one brick and mortar shop that I am aware of). So, if you see what you want, get it, you will never please everyone, no matter what you choose. I used to be concerned about what other people thought, but I was into cycling for fun, not to be an elitist jerk-off, so now I say F8ck them!


----------



## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

HotBlack said:


> I'm just going to gloss over the laundry list of reasons people legitimately hate specialized.
> 
> From day one, Specialized was a profit-at-any-cost scrappy beast with highly questionable ethics. Over the years, the only thing that's changed is their size and financial power. From the original Stumpjumper (which they "innovated" by ordering a couple Ritcheys from Tom, and then sent them directly to Taiwan to have mass produced) to their purchase of the innovative Horst Link, and then cutting off builders who had licenses to it, to the Stratos ordeal, to the Epic Cycles and Mountain Cycles debacles, resulting in so much litigation the companies went out of business, etc...
> 
> ...


So if not Specialized, what other brands, and I'm not talking high end bikes.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

jh251 said:


> So if not Specialized, what other brands, and I'm not talking high end bikes.


I implore you to try to get any other bike you can, particularly a Giant or Trek as they are both good value, available in a lot of places, make good bikes and generally get a lot less haters than Spesh.

There is no acceptable reason why you can't get anything other than a Specialized.


----------



## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

EGF168 said:


> I implore you to try to get any other bike you can, particularly a Giant or Trek as they are both good value, available in a lot of places, make good bikes and generally get a lot less haters than Spesh.
> 
> There is no acceptable reason why you can't get anything other than a Specialized.


Is that right? So if I test ride Giant, Trek, and Specialized and out of the 3, Specialized feels the best, I still shouldn't buy it?....I never liked Trek. Whatever your smoking, pass it this way.


----------



## fastale (Jul 2, 2007)

chas_martel said:


> I hate that they route cables/hoses under the bottom bracket.
> 
> Why oh why do they do that. This one thing keeps me from
> even demo'ing a Spec.


Curious, whats wrong with that?


----------



## PCinSC (Oct 25, 2005)

fastale said:


> Curious, whats wrong with that?


The housing gets dirty. It's a pain, but I know how to work a rag so it works out OK.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

jh251 said:


> Is that right? So if I test ride Giant, Trek, and Specialized and out of the 3, Specialized feels the best, I still shouldn't buy it?....I never liked Trek. Whatever your smoking, pass it this way.


I've never smoked before but if the Specialized feels best to you then I'd certainly like to know what you smoking/drinking/sniffing etc.

If it really does ride the best then I suggest you get it re painted ASAP, then it will no longer advertise Specialized and you can have the colour scheme of your choice.


----------



## PCinSC (Oct 25, 2005)

EGF168 said:


> There is no acceptable reason why you can't get anything other than a Specialized.


Yeah, there is.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

PCinSC said:


> Yeah, there is.


And that would be???


----------



## m0ngy (Dec 22, 2005)

trailguy said:


> They know how to make a good bike and they know how to run a sucessful business. It can get kinda lonesome up there, being the leader of the pack. The leaders have always taken the heat, and it made them tougher.
> When they can't catch them, some people try to shoot them down.
> 
> Actually, this is a juvenile topic. The 'hate' word should be filtered from even showing up, for it serves no good purpose.
> ...


goddamn this guy is a first class [email protected]

specialized suck cause they do. my first mtb was a '97 stumpy and i loved it, but i would never buy another specialized bike, ever. why would i? everyone has one, they're common as sh!t, and equally ugly. i wince whenever i see people (usually kids) with their new specialized (or norco) bikes. they're just so generic, marketed to the mom and pop buyer who don't know sh!t about the sport. it doesn't take much imagination to look further afield than specialized, and get a decent bike for the same money.

and it seems like every new specialized revolutionary design has it's own unique issues. they've always had issues; why re-invent the wheel? anyway, with a bit of clever purchasing off ebay i can get a Foes or Santa Cruz for the same price - b!tch please, there's simply no comparison.


----------



## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

EGF168 said:


> I've never smoked before but if the Specialized feels best to you then I'd certainly like to know what you smoking/drinking/sniffing etc.
> 
> If it really does ride the best then I suggest you get it re painted ASAP, then it will no longer advertise Specialized and you can have the colour scheme of your choice.


What was the reason for buying your bike over another?
I love my specialized and urge everyone to buy one.


----------



## m0ngy (Dec 22, 2005)

PCinSC said:


> Because they are the official bike supplier of the Dave Matthews Band, and everyone hates the Dave Matthews Band (check out the bike that their bass player "designed"). Except me, I like DMB and own two Specialized bikes.
> 
> Didn't pay full retail for them, though...and wouldn't.


yeah, that is weird isn't it. i would've thought specialized had more in common with metallica; good rock band who got too big and turned to sh!t because they tried to appeal to too wide an audience.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

jh251 said:


> What was the reason for buying your bike over another?
> I love my specialized and urge everyone to buy one.


Which one, the 07 Specialized Stumpy or the 08 Giant Trance 1, the Trance is just the best and I got a good deal, when I bought the Stumpy over a year ago I didn't know better, I hadn't bought a new bike in over 5 years before that and didn't know what an evil company they were.


----------



## puckhead (Aug 9, 2004)

Love them or hate them, Specialized markets their bikes better than any other bike company. They charge boutique prices while having their frames mass produced in Taiwan and spec their bikes with no name components with the “Specialized” name on it. Nothing against Taiwan frames, I actually think Taiwan makes a very good product, but the prices should reflect that and should not compare to what a Turner or Intense frame costs. Specialized also manages to spec their bikes with crap forks and shocks and manages to convince people that it’s an improvement over Fox, Rock Shox etc. Overall, a very smart company with mediocre bikes. Buying the horst link patent and keeping competitors out of the US market was brilliant. I do have a Specialized road bike that I bought 2nd hand from EBAY and their shoes are very comfy. But the MTB’s………….better value out there.


----------



## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

Some of us don't have big money to fork out, so the selection is narrowed down pretty quickly, not to mention I wouldn't know where to find a "turner", or "intense", even if I had the money. I'm happy, and that's all that matters. Many seem to be more caught up in bad mouthing a company, than worrying about themselves. A waste of time.


----------



## PCinSC (Oct 25, 2005)

jh251 said:


> Many seem to be more caught up in bad mouthing a company, than worrying about themselves.


In some ways Specialized does deserve to be bad-mouthed. As a corporation they seem to be a bit cut-throat, but that would be business as usual in industries outside of this one. It's ironic how worked up some people get over the whole made in USA vs. overseas thing, especially. We've all got homes full of foreign appliances, and "American made" cars built up from foreign made parts. I think Square Bladder's post was right on. If someone wants a frame made by hand in an American monastery, there are brands out there to be had without even devoting any thought to Specialized.

That said, I wouldn't own a Specialized unless I got the "bro deal" that I did. Because I agree with several other posters that said Specialized's bikes are _way_ over-priced. I have no idea why someone would pay full price for any of their high end bikes when a boutique brand could be built up with high-end parts for the same price or less.

Also:

I don't care that Specialized tried to recruit Cannondale engineers...although I'm not sure I'd be going after employees of a bike company with the nickname "crack-n-fail".

I don't care that they purchased the Horst link patent and now charge other companies to use it, in fact it sounds like a good business move.

I don't care that their frames are made in Taiwan, I've got no beef with the Taiwanese people.

I'm not _in_ the bike industry, I'm a bike consumer. All that I care about is value for my money and having fun.

I don't think my Enduro would ride any different if it were made in the United States. Would I rather be riding a made in USA frame? Sure, I'm as patriotic as the next guy. But I can't afford it. Just like I wouldn't be able to afford a new Specialized. Buy them used, they're usually pretty cheap. Or a Giant, or a Trek. Whatever. Have fun riding, don't worry about the decal on the downtube.


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

jh251 said:


> I'm happy, and that's all that matters.


Dingdingdingdingding!!!

Thanks for admitting that.

...regarding the Horst Link, it's not the royalties that did it. it was the abrupt terminating of the licensing, and sudden hogging of it that cost everyone else bigtime. A _couple_ builders are still allowed to use it, but this move was made purely to screw over small builders who'd already spent their money on materials orders for next years bikes, and suddenly couldn't sell them. It gets worse from there...


----------



## fastale (Jul 2, 2007)

PCinSC said:


> The housing gets dirty. It's a pain, but I know how to work a rag so it works out OK.


The Housing Gets Dirty? :skep: Who cares? It's full length housing, the cables stay clean. I don't mean to jump on you PCinSc, but I really hope thats not why people have a problem with the housing running beneath the BB.


----------



## Qatarbhoy (Jun 13, 2008)

Did Specialized have to pay royalties to use the SS rune as their logo?


----------



## TLL (Apr 28, 2008)

fastale said:


> The Housing Gets Dirty? :skep: Who cares? It's full length housing, the cables stay clean. I don't mean to jump on you PCinSc, but I really hope thats not why people have a problem with the housing running beneath the BB.


Full length? not on my Epic it wasn't.


----------



## Breznak (Mar 11, 2005)

EGF168 said:


> I've never smoked before but if the Specialized feels best to you then I'd certainly like to know what you smoking/drinking/sniffing etc.
> 
> If it really does ride the best then I suggest you get it re painted ASAP, then it will no longer advertise Specialized and you can have the colour scheme of your choice.


I tested a Trek Fuel EX, a Giant Trance X, and a Stumpjumper last fall. Never made the purchase due to cash flow issues, but all comments about their cutthroat behavior and continuing publication of Cocaine Tom Boonen ads (bad idea Spesh...) aside, I would have bought the Stumpy, and I don't do drugs. Beer, yes, drugs no.

The Trek was nothing special at all. Bad? No, but not good either. The Giant's suspension was amazing, but the geometry was really short and I was so upright I felt like I was on a horse. The guys at the LBS were cool and we played with the seat, the seatpost, and were going to put a longer neck on it, but even 2 more cm's wouldn't have done it--I just couldn't ride the hills on that bike. The Spesh was simply awesome and despite not being any heavier than the others, felt really, really solid underneath me in a way neither of its competitors did. Rode uphill nicely, came down nicely, and ate up technical sections like nothing. Great bike! Have you ever ridden one?

My criticism of Spesh? Proprietary shocks and forks. What is that about? For high end stuff, FOX is where it is at, and screwing in this area for me really took them down a notch or two. I got the feeling that they simply couldn't get a good enough deal from Fox for parts so simply blew them off and took this over themselves. All this stuff about "fully-integrated suspension" seems like a bit of BS to me.

The Spesh I demo'd was a 2007 SJ Expert.

I live in the Czech Republic, and the Mojo is not available here, and Ellsworth made it to the market only this year. Turner is not here, and Santa Cruz is so overpriced here that they make Spesh look cheap.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Breznak said:


> I tested a Trek Fuel EX, a Giant Trance X, and a Stumpjumper last fall. Never made the purchase due to cash flow issues, but all comments about their cutthroat behavior and continuing publication of Cocaine Tom Boonen ads (bad idea Spesh...) aside, I would have bought the Stumpy, and I don't do drugs. Beer, yes, drugs no.
> 
> The Trek was nothing special at all. Bad? No, but not good either. The Giant's suspension was amazing, but the geometry was really short and I was so upright I felt like I was on a horse. The guys at the LBS were cool and we played with the seat, the seatpost, and were going to put a longer neck on it, but even 2 more cm's wouldn't have done it--I just couldn't ride the hills on that bike. The Spesh was simply awesome and despite not being any heavier than the others, felt really, really solid underneath me in a way neither of its competitors did. Rode uphill nicely, came down nicely, and ate up technical sections like nothing. Great bike! Have you ever ridden one?
> 
> ...


Which Trek Fuel EX did you try, I find it very hard to believe it was "nothing special" if you were riding the 08 with the new suspension system.

As for the Stumpy, I owned the 07 Stumpy Comp, when I bought it the ride was pretty good compared to others but it quickly turned out that Specialized has bad CS and sold me a pile of rubbish, in the end I had to get rid of it because there was so much wrong with it and get a lovely Trance 1 which has been perfect ever since.

The Trance X is well worth fiddling around with different sizes and moving the stem down etc to get it right for you but the Stumpy does have a nice neutral riding position.


----------



## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

Too much smug in here.


----------



## Breznak (Mar 11, 2005)

EGF168 said:


> Which Trek Fuel EX did you try, I find it very hard to believe it was "nothing special" if you were riding the 08 with the new suspension system.
> 
> As for the Stumpy, I owned the 07 Stumpy Comp, when I bought it the ride was pretty good compared to others but it quickly turned out that Specialized has bad CS and sold me a pile of rubbish, in the end I had to get rid of it because there was so much wrong with it and get a lovely Trance 1 which has been perfect ever since.
> 
> The Trance X is well worth fiddling around with different sizes and moving the stem down etc to get it right for you but the Stumpy does have a nice neutral riding position.


Don't recall exactly, the EX8 or whatever one is a bit higher than the mid-range bike. Either way, it was a 2007 bike, the only 2008 I tried last fall was the Trance X2--I was the first person in the whole Czech Republic to demo that bike, which was pretty cool. I have ridden FS Trek's on more than a few occassions and they never agreed with me. Sorry! As for trying out a 2008 Trek, well, just not enough time in the day....

But my point was more that in selecting a bike based on what is most important (how it feels), I would have hands down chosen the Specialized. From what I feel, primarily Spesh's geometry agrees best with my build where I have legs that happen to be about 3 inches too short for my body. I presently own an older SJ FSR and I am very happy with it, but with the way they are going with this proprietary shock nonsense, my next FS bike will most likely NOT be a Specialized. I guess you would recommend a TREK? Is the 2008 that much better than the 2007? I haven't read up on it at all.


----------



## Breznak (Mar 11, 2005)

Hey EGF, 

One more comment--I think it was you who commented on Spesh's colors for this year. I am glad it is not only me who finds them garish beyong belief. Yes, you can get your Stumpjumper in a lovely combination of $h!t brown / vomit orange or tarnished silver / snot green. Take your pick! Enduros are available in other similarly attractive color combos!


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Breznak said:


> Hey EGF,
> 
> One more comment--I think it was you who commented on Spesh's colors for this year. I am glad it is not only me who finds them garish beyong belief. Yes, you can get your Stumpjumper in a lovely combination of $h!t brown / vomit orange or tarnished silver / snot green. Take your pick! Enduros are available in other similarly attractive color combos!


Yeah the Trek is now one of the best with the new suspension system, here is a review of it your interested:

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/bikes/mountain/product/fuel-ex8-08-28009

However I can't ever recall having a go at Spesh's colour schemes, I don't like the easily damaged clear coat they put over the top and it pisses me off that they aren't available in every country in the colour you want but feel free to point out where I said that.:thumbsup:


----------



## PCinSC (Oct 25, 2005)

fastale said:


> The Housing Gets Dirty? :skep: Who cares? It's full length housing, the cables stay clean. I don't mean to jump on you PCinSc, but I really hope thats not why people have a problem with the housing running beneath the BB.


I was being sarcastic.

I have no idea why people have a problem with it.


----------



## McDowell_Matt (Jan 31, 2006)

fastale said:


> They actually gave me an 8-ball when I bought my stumpy.


Now if feel totally ripped off :madmax: ... I only got the bike.
I'm not as fast as Boonen, OR as aggressive as Bettini,
and I didn't even get my blow...

or the hookers...


----------



## Breznak (Mar 11, 2005)

EGF168 said:


> Yeah the Trek is now one of the best with the new suspension system, here is a review of it your interested:
> 
> http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/bikes/mountain/product/fuel-ex8-08-28009
> 
> However I can't ever recall having a go at Spesh's colour schemes, I don't like the easily damaged clear coat they put over the top and it pisses me off that they aren't available in every country in the colour you want but feel free to point out where I said that.:thumbsup:


My bad--you referred to painting it so no one could see it was a Spesh. I immediately thought about painting it so you could hide the horrible colors. Actually, one SJ comes in a very nice burgundy and silver, but their other color schemes are really poor.

I need to check out getting my next bike shipped to the CR from the UK! At current FX rates, that same bike goes for the equivalent of GBP 2300 here in Prague. I suppose I would find this with other brands as well.


----------



## Jlar (May 29, 2006)

stripes said:


> Why I like Specialized
> - They make good helmets where Bell now makes crap and only Giros, which don't fit me


A little off-topic but Bell and Giro are the same company.


----------



## HELLBELLY (Jan 16, 2004)

*Just not for me...*

I do not particularly care for Specialized mountain bikes as I just have never liked the feel of the FSR design or their geometry. There are plenty that do. So be it. Thats their business (or problem). As for their biz practices, I cannot make an informed comment. I will say I prefer the approach of companies like Santa Cruz who make small changes to their designs over the years until they deem a redesign is needed. :thumbsup: I think too many others tend to revamp their models (and suspension systems) yearly which only rapidly de-values their product.


----------



## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

HELLBELLY said:


> I do not particularly care for Specialized mountain bikes as I just have never liked the feel of the FSR design or their geometry. There are plenty that do. So be it. Thats their business (or problem). As for their biz practices, I cannot make an informed comment. I will say I prefer the approach of companies like Santa Cruz who make small changes to their designs over the years until they deem a redesign is needed. :thumbsup: I think too many others tend to revamp their models (and suspension systems) yearly which only rapidly de-values their product.


Show me a Santa Cruz that the working man can afford without going under.


----------



## antonio (Jan 18, 2005)

Geez, jh251, people have posted plenty of reasons why Specialized deserves at least some of the hate it receives - why do you defend the company so strongly?

BTW - to anyone who considers Spesh to be an "innovator", can you please explain how? It seems to me that they play catch up fairly regularly (eg. the move towards longer travel trail bikes, slacker geometry on their frames, 29ers), but I don't follow the industry that closely.

Ant


----------



## Streamline.by.design (Apr 27, 2007)

They dropped Steve Romaniuk! Enough said lol


----------



## snobrder5 (Apr 16, 2006)

jh251 said:


> Show me a Santa Cruz that the working man can afford without going under.


http://www.speedgoat.com/product-popup.asp?part=136374

far better bike than you'll get from specialized for the same money......i'm the epitome of "working man", and i make horrible money, but i still manage to ride a SC, b/c you save your money and make sacrifices when you want the best....and why do i hate specialized? cause they have too many pivots....same reason i hate every other bike that isn't a TRUE single pivot design....j/k about the hate....how bout i "prefer" less pivots...


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

puckhead said:


> and spec their bikes with no name components with the "Specialized" name on it.


like what? ive never seen that on any mid to upper end specialized mtb.



puckhead said:


> Specialized also manages to spec their bikes with crap forks and shocks and manages to convince people that it's an improvement over Fox, Rock Shox etc.


actually, a guy from fox is the one who designs all their proprietary suspension, so internally they are basically fox shocks.

and other than their futureshock forks, specialized hangs fox forks on the front of their higher end mountain bikes.

so your whole "crap forks and shocks" has no merit or basis in reality.

the only downside to specialized fs frames is proprietary eye to eye length, which prevents or at least makes if very difficult to use aftermarket shocks. but they did this to prevent others from using brain fade shocks on non-specialzed frames in order to keep the brain fade technology proprietary to their frames.

and perhaps you havent ridden any of the brain bikes, but they work very, very well.

as for their future shock forks, you obviously havent ridden one if you call them crap. the compression/rebound is on one leg of the fork to prevent redundancy and lower the weight of the fork (they also have carbon steerers). the brain in them works very, very well and imho is an impovement over the terra-logic system. but then again, ive acually ridden quite a bit on both so what do i know...

my gf's crap bike is a carbon safire fsr with futureshock brain fork and brain fade rear. the crap stock components include xtr cranks, xo drivetrain, and magura louise brakes. they skimped and used a thompson stem and seat post and sweet carbon bar; and it also included the crappy roval wheelset which is 1400g, yet very strong. the sorry p.o.s. full suspension bike weighs 22 lbs and rides very, very well.

all that being said let me state that i dont care if you like them or not, and im not defending specialized or trying to get you to change your mind. if you want to hate them fine, different strokes for different folks... but at least get your facts right.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

PCinSC said:


> I don't care that Specialized tried to recruit Cannondale engineers


all bike companies try to recurit people from other bike companies. everyone in the industry knows this.

what cannondale did was make a deceptive ad. this has been covered exensively in another thread which i am too lazy to link to unless someone wishes to read it; so ill be brief lest mike whip out the dead horse!

in short, a couple of people defected from cannondale upon hearing of the impending sale and went to specialized. they suggested that specialized contact a couple of their buddies at cannondale and offer them positions as well, which specialized did. cannondale misrepresented the whole thing and turned it into a negative smear campaign.



PCinSC said:


> Have fun riding, don't worry about the decal on the downtube.


one of the best statements in the thread.

fwiw, the same company in taiwan that produces specialized bikes also produces many of the other brands that people who hate specialized pledge their undying love and devotion to.

so basically the decal on the downtube simply states who designed it, not who actually produced it.


----------



## dsjc (May 14, 2007)

Parts and service availability have value to me. I've been in some tiny little towns where Spec, Trek, and the other big players have dealers, but you'd be screwed to get support on one of the boutique's.

I like my Enduro, it fits and works well and I have fun riding it, and nobody pays retail, do they ?

You wouldn't happen to be viewing this thread with a Microsoft product, would you ? I suppose everyone hates that monster of a company as well


----------



## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*Two weeks ago called..*



73h 8r!110 said:


> Lately, i've heard a lot of people express their hate for specialized. Can someone please explain, i dont get it? Is specialized regarded as trendy; are they the "Wal-mart" of the biking industry. Someone throw me bone.
> 
> -brillo


oh nevermind..


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

Well, there's a thread with rational, well-thought-out responses for you.


----------



## HELLBELLY (Jan 16, 2004)

*Retail is for schmucks and X-mas shoppers...*



jh251 said:


> Show me a Santa Cruz that the working man can afford without going under.


Be a smart shopper and you can get want you want without resorting to selling a kidney. I bought my Heckler frame off ebay for less than half of what it would cost me new. I have used it at least 1-2 times a week since I built it over three years ago and I have had zero problems with it even riding it as hard as I do. I bought my Nomad frame on close out of the design model. Deals are out there if you look for them. You can buy alot more bike for yr dough used than anything new Specialized sells for the same dough. SC's owner Rob Roskopp has said in interviews that they do not and will never sell a bike that is under a $1000 spec'd. They un-apologetically do not want to be everything to everyone. I think thats quite admirable; I would rather be great at a few things then so-so at alot of things. :devil::thumbsup:


----------



## TLL (Apr 28, 2008)

monogod said:


> my gf's crap bike is a carbon safire fsr with futureshock brain fork and brain fade rear. the crap stock components include xtr cranks, xo drivetrain, and magura louise brakes. they skimped and used a thompson stem and seat post and sweet carbon bar; and it also included the crappy roval wheelset which is 1400g, yet very strong. the sorry p.o.s. full suspension bike weighs 22 lbs and rides very, very well.


I'm guessing (I have to guess since it was so poorly worded) that the OP was referring to Specialized's practice of using house branded components on their lower end bikes. Which is a non-issue, as Trek, Cannondale and Kona all do the same thing.

As for The Futureshock fork, our local dealer had a several of those (somewhere between 5-7) come back with leaky/blown seals. I have been told that the 09's have the bugs worked out, and my buddy at the shop says the fork is really sweet. Thery are a pretty big shop, so I have a feeling that they sold a mumber of Enduros with that fork; so I can't say with any certainty what percentage of the forks that went out developed leaks.

Of course, Fox Terralogic forks--for example--also had seal issues, and they shipped a bunch of 08 36's with low oil, so no fork mfg. is perfect.



monogod said:


> the only downside to specialized fs frames is proprietary eye to eye length, which prevents or at least makes if very difficult to use aftermarket shocks. but they did this to prevent others from using brain fade shocks on non-specialzed frames in order to keep the brain fade technology proprietary to their frames.


One could just as easily argue that they do this so as to lock the consumer into using their suspension products, as opposed to buying a CCDB or something else. Again, no news here, Maverick, Cannonade and other mfg.'s do this.

But I will disagree that just because Mick McAndrews worked for Fox before coming to S that their shocks are basically Fox Shocks. If that were true, Fox would have taken them to court. I'm sure the internals are different enough to pass the lawyer-don't-sue-me test. I'd hope they weren't Fox shocks anyway, as Fox has made some real junk, including their TerraLogic forks.

Not ripping on Specialized or anyone's choice of bike. I had an Epic, and it was a decent bike. Even with the TerraLogic. fork 

. . . .

Personally, I think h8er threads like this one are stupid. Same kind of stuff gets posted to the Ellsworth forum and until recently, Ibex. If you don't like the brand, people, vote with your pocketbook.


----------



## bullit44777 (May 30, 2006)

damn all you naysayers! Specialized is a GREAT bike....for beginners


----------



## Rocketbass88 (Jun 16, 2008)

I have a '99 Specialized FSR and love the thing to death. I do agree that Spec changes things too often to get more sales, but hey, I got a sweet bike out of them and as far as I'm concerned, they can keep redoing their bikes... it makes buying a second hand bike that much cheaper.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

monogod said:


> like what? ive never seen that on any mid to upper end specialized mtb.
> 
> actually, a guy from fox is the one who designs all their proprietary suspension, so internally they are basically fox shocks.
> 
> ...


And I'd like to point out that even if Fox/Specialized designs something perfectly, unless I am very badly informed it is SR Suntour that actually makes them which is where quite a few problems with their shocks have come from&#8230;particularly the ones on the Enduro SL.


----------



## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

HELLBELLY said:


> Be a smart shopper and you can get want you want without resorting to selling a kidney. I bought my Heckler frame off ebay for less than half of what it would cost me new. I have used it at least 1-2 times a week since I built it over three years ago and I have had zero problems with it even riding it as hard as I do. I bought my Nomad frame on close out of the design model. Deals are out there if you look for them. You can buy alot more bike for yr dough used than anything new Specialized sells for the same dough. SC's owner Rob Roskopp has said in interviews that they do not and will never sell a bike that is under a $1000 spec'd. They un-apologetically do not want to be everything to everyone. I think thats quite admirable; I would rather be great at a few things then so-so at alot of things. :devil::thumbsup:


SC doesn't sell anything under a $1000. No problem. You guys seem to be alot more serious than I am. I don't compete and couldn't care less about finishing a trail in record time. There's a few good LBS in my area and I'm not one to travel all over the place looking for the best deal in town. I'm talking $6-700 and under. I've had a few specialized, one of them was stolen, but I've never had a problem with the bike.


----------



## Photograph (Mar 27, 2007)

I have a Stumpy FSR and it's a good bike, does what it's supposed to without issue and is yet to let me down. I'll agree with a lot of posters that the big S does indeed put too many logos on many of their models, especially their S-Works line. And finding out that the rear triangle only has a one year warranty was a bit of a piss-off for me to say the least, I'll ride it till it dies and see what happens with their "crash replacement" pricing.

I like my Stumpie and it's a ton of fun to ride but my next two bikes are going to be a Kona 29er race hardtail and a Misfit Singlespeed as Kona has never dicked me around and I race with the owner of Misfit Psycles who's a stand up guy who backs up his products.


----------



## onegymrat (May 31, 2006)

Square Bladder said:


> - Because they run their business like a business, which pisses off the purists who think the bike industry should be one big, happy bro deal.
> 
> - Because they make a lot of bikes, which pisses off the purists who think all bikes should be made by hand in a monastary somewhere.
> 
> ...


Wonderful response! :thumbsup:


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*It's still....*



EGF168 said:


> Yeah the Trek is now one of the best with the new suspension system, here is a review of it your interested:
> 
> http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/bikes/mountain/product/fuel-ex8-08-28009
> 
> However I can't ever recall having a go at Spesh's colour schemes, I don't like the easily damaged clear coat they put over the top and it pisses me off that they aren't available in every country in the colour you want but feel free to point out where I said that.:thumbsup:


... A single pivot. Big whoop. Very innovative.

I gotta say, FSR rules. Best suspension bike I've owned is a Stumpy FSR-XC. The rear wheel tracks over stuff very well without getting 'hung up', especially during low speed techy rocky climbs. Too bad they get waaaaayyy too much dough for the 29er version, or I'd be all over one of those.

The RacerX 29er frame is actually cheaper than the Stumpy 29er and is made in the US (or it will be again soon). I'm torn between that and a Ventana El Ray (which is also a single pivot).

Point is, if I'm going to drop over $2k on a frame, that dough should stay in this country, IMO.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

pimpbot said:


> ... A single pivot. Big whoop. Very innovative.


It's the new Full Floater/Active Braking Point suspension, tell me it is crap when you have ridden it bonehead, and when you realise it is one of the best you may also notice you can get the carbon version which is still made in the US if your so bothered about that.


----------



## TLL (Apr 28, 2008)

EGF168 said:


> And I'd like to point out that even if Fox/Specialized designs something perfectly, unless I am very badly informed it is SR Suntour that actually makes them which is where quite a few problems with their shocks have come from&#8230;particularly the ones on the Enduro SL.


The problems Specialized had with the FutureShock fork pale in comparison to the issues Marz had with their '08 66 and 55 line.


----------



## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

TLL said:


> The problems Specialized had with the FutureShock fork pale in comparison to the issues Marz had with their '08 66 and 55 line.


Theyre on a similar level - for the exact same reason... both were outsourced to SR Suntour.


----------



## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

antonio said:


> Geez, jh251, people have posted plenty of reasons why Specialized deserves at least some of the hate it receives - why do you defend the company so strongly?
> 
> BTW - to anyone who considers Spesh to be an "innovator", can you please explain how? It seems to me that they play catch up fairly regularly (eg. the move towards longer travel trail bikes, slacker geometry on their frames, 29ers), but I don't follow the industry that closely.
> 
> Ant


Well put..

They do very little "first" - they dont ever test the water, they let others do it for them.

They seem to prefer to simply wait until something looks promising, then acquire the rights to it and refuse to allow others to use it (horst link and the stratos debacle as notable examples).


----------



## jervana (May 25, 2008)

my buddy just bought a specialized stumpy, carbon fiber frame. he's loving it. 

maybe some people are just uptight about bikes.


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*well, you have a point...*



EGF168 said:


> It's the new Full Floater/Active Braking Point suspension, tell me it is crap when you have ridden it bonehead, and when you realise it is one of the best you may also notice you can get the carbon version which is still made in the US if your so bothered about that.


... about my riding it. I have not ridden it yet, and I should withhold judgement.

But you have to admit, at the end of the day, the rear axle is still connected to the front triangle through a single link, a single pivot... all the rest is just bells and whistles to mess with the suspension compression ratios. The rear axle is still just a perfect arc around the BB pivot.

What is cool about FSR and to a greater extent VPP is that the rear axle actually moves out of the way of bumps, especialy at low speed. IME with single pivots, the rear wheel hangs up on rocks during low speed tech climbs and makes the bike want to stop. The FSR doesn't do that. I need to check out an El Ray on the trail to make sure it doesn't do that. Probably less of an issue with 29er wheels.

... and thanks for calling me a bonehead. Says a lot about you.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

pimpbot said:


> ... about my riding it. I have not ridden it yet, and I should withhold judgement.
> 
> But you have to admit, at the end of the day, the rear axle is still connected to the front triangle through a single link, a single pivot... all the rest is just bells and whistles to mess with the suspension compression ratios. The rear axle is still just a perfect arc around the BB pivot.
> 
> What is cool about FSR and to a greater extent VPP is that the rear axle actually moves out of the way of bumps, especialy at low speed. IME with single pivots, the rear wheel hangs up on rocks during low speed tech climbs and makes the bike want to stop. The FSR doesn't do that. I need to check out an El Ray on the trail to make sure it doesn't do that. Probably less of an issue with 29er wheels.


Yep the rear axle is still just a perfect arc around the BB pivot but all those little bells and whistles make it ride great.:thumbsup:

I must admit I didn't like the feeling that the dropouts were getting wrenched off and the loud bang you get from sharp square edged bumps on my Stumpy.


----------



## Qatarbhoy (Jun 13, 2008)

well i love my custom-built US-made Reef Blastbody with the 150mm Bolt Vanderhuge fork more than any other bike except the carbon fibre Blast Hardcheese I'm getting for my 12th birthday*. l8r n00bs! :thumbsup: 

*this is a lot in dog years


----------



## KONA_in_SB (May 20, 2004)

*How's that Kool-Aid taste?*



pimpbot said:


> ... about my riding it. I have not ridden it yet, and I should withhold judgement.
> 
> But you have to admit, at the end of the day, the rear axle is still connected to the front triangle through a single link, a single pivot... all the rest is just bells and whistles to mess with the suspension compression ratios. The rear axle is still just a perfect arc around the BB pivot.
> 
> What is cool about FSR and to a greater extent VPP is that the rear axle actually moves out of the way of bumps, especialy at low speed. IME with single pivots, the rear wheel hangs up on rocks during low speed tech climbs and makes the bike want to stop. The FSR doesn't do that. I need to check out an El Ray on the trail to make sure it doesn't do that. Probably less of an issue with 29er wheels.


Yes its a a single pivot, you act like that's a bad thing? Yes, all their 'bells and whistles' are to change the compression ratios. One can design a single pivote to 'move' out of the way of the bumps just as well as the FSR and VPP designs. Its all in the pivot placement. But do you really think 5mm of rearward axle movement makes a difference when you hit a 12" rock at 20 mph?

And for the record I tihnk Specialized makes some good bikes. I think they are overpriced. I don't like their propriotory stuff (components and suspension). I love their SX Trails. But I don't like them as a company because of the above said bussiness practices. Plus I'd rather support the small guy.


----------



## GotMojo? (Mar 25, 2004)

This bike costs more than my Civic, but is probably also faster.


----------



## Qatarbhoy (Jun 13, 2008)

Nice bike, but who makes it?


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

GotMojo? said:


> This bike costs more than my Civic, but is probably also faster.


My god, I've never seen a bike with so much advertising on it, whoever Zipp and Specialized are they will be doing very well off that&#8230;


----------



## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

EGF168 said:


> Yep the rear axle is still just a perfect arc around the BB pivot but all those little bells and whistles make it ride great.:thumbsup:
> 
> I must admit I didn't like the feeling that the dropouts were getting wrenched off and the loud bang you get from sharp square edged bumps on my Stumpy.


The rear pivot isn't there so it will pedal more efficiently. It is there so that braking forces will be decoupled from the suspension. It is in essence a integrated floating brake arm. Same as a faux bar design like Kona's. Or Turner's, Or Transition's.

Not that it's bad. It's just a single pivot with a integrated Floating brake arm. So that's good. 
And it's already patented by Dave Weagle.

To the OP, I think Spec makes some nice bikes. But they are not that great of a value.
As others have said, You can buy another quality frame and get better parts for the same money. Since I build my own bikes, It's a no brainer.
Plus I don't like their business tactics. Or their propietary parts. I won't buy Foes cause of their shocks either.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

wormvine said:


> The rear pivot isn't there so it will pedal more efficiently. It is there so that braking forces will be decoupled from the suspension. It is in essence a integrated floating brake arm. Same as a faux bar design like Kona's. Or Turner's, Or Transition's.
> 
> Not that it's bad. It's just a single pivot with a integrated Floating brake arm. So that's good.
> And it's already patented by Dave Weagle.


I did know what the ABP rear pivot does thanks, I did also know that DW has a very similar Split Pivot system and that Trek has got away with it on a few minor differences.


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*First off, who does that?*



KONA_in_SB said:


> But do you really think 5mm of rearward axle movement makes a difference when you hit a 12" rock at 20 mph?


If you hit a 12" rock at 20 MPH, I'll bet pot brownies to poundcake your wouldn't just taco your rim, but you would Pac Man it and get pitched off into the bushes, but I think you were making more of an arguement of hitting rocks at speed.

No, what I was getting at was the low speed stuff. My single pivot bikes would hang up rolling up small and medium sized rocks (like say, 3-6" rocks) when granny cranking up climbs at say, 4 mph, sometimes bringing me to a dead stop. I found FSR bikes tended not to hang up nearly as much. The difference was the axle path, methinks.

You're still right, tho. I really should check out the new Fuels. I found the older Fuels (and GF Sugars, which were similar) to be very dead feeling in back, but the newer ones are supposed to be quite buttery.

I also understand that the new Trek rear pivot is more a way to keep the bike from stink bugging under braking, which the FSR design does a pretty good job of. Truth be told, I haven't really found this to be a big enough issue on the SP bikes I have owned to worry about.


----------



## TLL (Apr 28, 2008)

EnglishT said:


> Theyre on a similar level - for the exact same reason... both were outsourced to SR Suntour.


Just wondering, how do you know that? Do you have actual data?


----------



## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

EnglishT said:


> Well put..
> 
> They do very little "first" - they dont ever test the water, they let others do it for them.
> 
> They seem to prefer to simply wait until something looks promising, then acquire the rights to it and refuse to allow others to use it (horst link and the stratos debacle as notable examples).


I'm going to put on the asbestos suit here - Spec ain't alone in that. Shimano did it with V brakes, and with outboard bearing cranks. (Bontrager and Sweet Wings if I remember right). They were big enough to make both of 'em industry standards where the little guys were not.

My two biggest complaints are 1) propietary crap (Shimano, SRAM, and C-Dale are all guilty too so it isn't just Specy...) 2) Price. As others have noted here - I could get S-Works something or a boutique builder with *my* parts pick instead.

JmZ


----------



## knives out (Nov 23, 2007)

jh251 said:


> Some of us don't have big money to fork out, so the selection is narrowed down pretty quickly, not to mention I wouldn't know where to find a "turner", or "intense", even if I had the money. I'm happy, and that's all that matters. Many seem to be more caught up in bad mouthing a company, than worrying about themselves. A waste of time.


So you're willing to over-pay simply out of laziness? OK...


----------



## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

EGF168 said:


> I did know what the ABP rear pivot does thanks, I did also know that DW has a very similar Split Pivot system and that Trek has got away with it on a few minor differences.


Sorry, I did not mean to assume you weren't aware of these thing. But the impression I got from a couple of your earlier posts was that you believed the concentric dropout pivot design that the new Trek uses was in some way unique or superior to other designs. It really isn't. It has more to do with the implementation of any design. Turner has more than proven that by going from a horst-link design to the widely used faux-bar design.

In reality, the concentric dropout pivot design is just more new hype. Something new, like "chili cheese wild pepper doritoes". It's a good option, but not superior to other designs.


----------



## daveM (Jan 15, 2004)

*Because...*

You have nothing better to do?


----------



## MisterClean (Jul 1, 2004)

I got your spesh fanboy right here... Flame suit on and ready.:thumbsup: 

In my stable are:
2000 Enduro Pro - bought for a deal in 2001
2004 S-works Enduro - bought for a deal in 2005 (20% under MSRP)
2007 S-works Enduro SL - bought for a deal in 2008 (30% off MSRP) 

2005 specialized Roubaix comp double (DA 10-spd) for me (bought in 06)
2007 Roubaix Elite tripple (For my wife)

The 2000 enduro was a great bike and served me well. When I bought it, admittedly, I did not know much about bikes. But it was a great bike and I told myself I'd only upgrade if something revolutionary came up - from any bike manufacturer.

The 2004 s-works enduro with the brain shock was and is an incredible bike. The brain shock in the rear with those crossmax Sl wheels makes for one SUPER efficient pedaler up the hills. On the way down, you have a very capable 5" front/rear travel trail bike. This is one bike that can do it all. I even took it to Northstar (black-diamonds, no double-blacks) a few times.

After riding that for a few years, I realized it was great for uphill and XC, but for downhills, the 70.5 degree HT angle is too steep for serious downhill fun, especially when the front compresses (FOX BRAKE DIVE) easily and the rear brain shock is closed.

So on to the Enduro SL. I got a deal on it and specialized honored the free fork and shock upgrades to 08 stuff, no questions asked, even though the 07 stuff was holding up fine. I loved the idea of a 27-28 lb all-mountian bike, carbon frame, with 6" travel front and rear. The 08 fork and shock feel great. It's not as efficient of a pedaler as the 04 with the brain, but it is more plush and I am in much better shape these days so I don't need as much help going uphill. 

I have loved riding each of these bikes and they have paid for themselves with the joy and exercise I get from them (still working on the ROI for the SL!).

I like specialized because their bikes fit me well, have been bulletproof for me, their warranty is great and their designs are innovative IMO.

The Roubaix road bikes are easily ridden for 50 miles with zero fatigue. They really do suck up bumps in the road, but are stiff in the right direction for climbing.

This thread has been entertaining. I really don't want to spend all my time worrying about what's better than what. I really don't give a crap. I am in it for the ride and the friends I meet along the way. There is no 'best' anything in any hobby. If you are looking for 'the best' or you think you have found 'the best', you are lost in a hopeless spiral.

I will say that anyone paying full MSRP for a high-end Specialized is just silly...

I have what I have and I am going to have fun with it. If you want to hate Specialized, have fun hating... I'll be out riding while you all are bickering in this forum...


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

wormvine said:


> Sorry, I did not mean to assume you weren't aware of these thing. But the impression I got from a couple of your earlier posts was that you believed the concentric dropout pivot design that the new Trek uses was in some way unique or superior to other designs. It really isn't. It has more to do with the implementation of any design. Turner has more than proven that by going from a horst-link design to the widely used faux-bar design.
> 
> In reality, the concentric dropout pivot design is just more new hype. Something new, like "chili cheese wild pepper doritoes". It's a good option, but not superior to other designs.


Have you ridden the bike? Because I and some of the reviews have noticed that surprisingly you can actually feel the difference braking with ABP straight off, the fact that it uses this different implementation of design rather than having a huge floating brake contraption means that it is superior, there are of course still better systems like VPP and Maestro that don't need it but when you put it all together the Trek is one sweet ride.


----------



## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

EGF168 said:


> the fact that it uses this different implementation of design rather than having a huge floating brake contraption means that it is superior, there are of course still better systems like VPP and Maestro that don't need it but when you put it all together the Trek is one sweet ride.


Just cause it has an integrated brake arm doesn't make it functionally superior. Just mechanically minimized. It may be less bulky than a external floating brake arm, But the rear hub is now mechanically more complicated. Is this a better tradeoff? IDK yet. If the floating arm breaks, It is a relatively easy fix, to remove it and keep riding. If the cocentric pivot has issues, you most likely will be out for awhile. Either way it is a new twist to an old concept. 
But I do like the bikes although I would never buy a Trek.


----------



## Roswell52 (Mar 25, 2008)

73h 8r!110 said:


> Lately, i've heard a lot of people express their hate for specialized. Can someone please explain, i dont get it? Is specialized regarded as trendy; are they the "Wal-mart" of the biking industry. Someone throw me bone.
> 
> -brillo










Because riding a Specialized bike makes flames come out of my ars!


----------



## stoopednames (Jun 4, 2008)

Everyone has to hate something. Whales, Specialized, Fat people, Mayonnaise, Double Wides, etc. etc. 

Just Saying.


----------



## TheSubaruJunkie (Apr 6, 2008)

Im new to the sport but found out quickly about the hatred toward specialized... even tho I have seen their bikes out on the trails since i was in elementary school (I am nearing 30 now). I don't quite get it, & none of the replies here are legitimate excuses at all.

What I do know is, when Im out riding, 7 out of 10 of the bikes I see are speshy's. So they must not be all that bad. I have a hard time believing 70% of the Mt. Biking population in my area are all noobs who know jack about the sport.

I would have to say the 2nd most popular bike I see on my local trails are Santa Cruz. They are nice looking bikes, with pretty much the exact same components my bike has. And looking at their lineup, their prices are just as rediculously high as Specialized. So... where are all the "I hate Santa Cruz" threads?


----------



## norm (Feb 20, 2005)

I was a fan of Specialized, till they wouldnt warranty a part. I cracked the linkage on my Fsr, 3 times in about 6-8 rides. The LBS installed it, and they agreed with me that it should be warrantied. I got some ticked, so i went and bought a Jamis XCR. I wouldnt look back. No more Specialized for me, and it was my 3rd one. Sad....


----------



## snobrder5 (Apr 16, 2006)

TheSubaruJunkie said:


> Im new to the sport but found out quickly about the hatred toward specialized... even tho I have seen their bikes out on the trails since i was in elementary school (I am nearing 30 now). I don't quite get it, & none of the replies here are legitimate excuses at all.
> 
> What I do know is, when Im out riding, 7 out of 10 of the bikes I see are speshy's. So they must not be all that bad. I have a hard time believing 70% of the Mt. Biking population in my area are all noobs who know jack about the sport.
> 
> I would have to say the 2nd most popular bike I see on my local trails are Santa Cruz. They are nice looking bikes, with pretty much the exact same components my bike has. And looking at their lineup, their prices are just as rediculously high as Specialized. So... where are all the "I hate Santa Cruz" threads?


from my experience, 70% of the riders out there DON'T know jack about the sport...they may not be noobs, but they just dont know the difference....either cause they dont CARE to know, or no one ever told them....as far as 70% riding specialized, it's not that much around here (more like 50%)....but the reason it's still really high is b/c EVERY SHOP is a specialized dealer....their bikes look really sexy, and they're expensive....so those two things together makes people think they're buying the BEST bike possible....combined with the fact that most people who buy them based on the two factors above, are generally not up to the task of maintaining their bike, so they get the "lifetime maintenance" deal from the shop....if these people had done their own research on a site like this, and read reviews, and looked through forums, etc they prob wouldn't have ended up with a specialized....but maybe they would, b/c the shop down the street carries them, and they get them worked on for free....

as far as COMPONENTS making the difference between a Specialized, and a SC, well it's far more than that.....it's geometry, fit, feel, PURPOSE, and performance that makes the difference....mainly, the frame....take all your components (except the rear shock) and put them on a nomad, or a heckler, and it'll be a different bike....that's what people want....a different bike....not b/c it's NOT a specialized, but b/c that bike (be it a SC or a Scott or a Tomac) is the bike that works best for them...components are like 20% of what MAKES the bike....

and why are their no "i hate SC" threads? b/c no one hates SC....they're the best  :thumbsup:


----------



## GuruAtma (May 17, 2004)

Specialized makes good products but has fairly aggressive marketing practices that make it hard for smaller dealers and smaller bike companies to compete. 

I think it's noble for people to avoid buying a product because they disagree with the company's practices. 

I'm sure all the Specialized haters act the same way toward other big companies with unfair marketing practices---none of you are using any Microsoft products, right? And I'm sure you'd never buy an iPod either


----------



## [email protected] (May 25, 2008)

Its just the fact that they are so ubiquitous - people who like to think they are 'different' and 'free-thinkers' make themselves feel better by slagging them off. I have a hardrock which is a great beginners bike that has done me really well - I will soon have a specialized pitch. I demoed quite a few other bikes but the pitch was the best one for the money.

The fact is almost all the bikes around are pretty decent once you start spending over £1000 or so - its just a question of finding the one that suits you best. If that happens to be a Specialized then why not?


----------



## bullit44777 (May 30, 2006)

"What I do know is, when Im out riding, 7 out of 10 of the bikes I see are speshy's. So they must not be all that bad. I have a hard time believing 70% of the Mt. Biking population in my area are all noobs who know jack about the sport."

thats like saying 70% of all professional workers are fashionable because they wear Dockers...


----------



## TheSubaruJunkie (Apr 6, 2008)

bullit44777 said:


> "What I do know is, when Im out riding, 7 out of 10 of the bikes I see are speshy's. So they must not be all that bad. I have a hard time believing 70% of the Mt. Biking population in my area are all noobs who know jack about the sport."
> 
> thats like saying 70% of all professional workers are fashionable because they wear Dockers...


Actually, its not anything like saying that. Its like saying 70% of the mountain bikers in my area know a good bike when they see it. And specialized is a good bike.


----------



## stoopednames (Jun 4, 2008)

bullit44777 said:


> "What I do know is, when Im out riding, 7 out of 10 of the bikes I see are speshy's. So they must not be all that bad. I have a hard time believing 70% of the Mt. Biking population in my area are all noobs who know jack about the sport."
> 
> thats like saying 70% of all professional workers are fashionable because they wear Dockers...


What kind of doucheasaurus wears dockers?


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

TheSubaruJunkie said:


> Actually, its not anything like saying that. Its like saying 70% of the mountain bikers in my area know a good bike when they see it. And specialized is a good bike.


Funny you should mention that, I could trot out hundreds of reasons to hate Specialized but they would be the icing on the cake for me, the main reason for me is the Stumpy I bought was a bad bike and they gave me bad customer service over it.

I believe I'm right in saying I have one of the only legitimate reasons to hate them&#8230;

The people who ride Specialized bikes is a bout 15% here, and there are a lot of riders and Spesh dealers in the area, 11 dealers in driving distance. I'd also like to point out that the riders I see riding top end bikes like Enduro's and Stumpy's has gone down a lot over the last couple of years and most of them have gone to other manufacturers.


----------



## Plats (Jun 18, 2008)

I got two Specialized bikes: HardRock 26er and Rockhopper 29er, they say SPECIALIZED on the side in huge letters. It appears that some people got things against SPECIALIZED, that's cool, don't bother me none. I like my bikes, they do what I paid the money for, recreational joy. Better bikes out there, whatever, Corporate giant, who cares. I think I will get a SPECIALIZED team jersey, matching pants, helmet, shoes, sunglasses, gloves, tires, and waterbottle. I am gonna shine up my SPECIALIZED bikes every night, and pose on the mountain each day; all will bow down to my shiney bikes, you will shiver at the sight of my glorious flashy bikes. Who cares if you ride better than me, you got some $$$ boutique bike, you hit it your way, I'll hit it mine. Hurray for the Corporate giants, he, he.


----------



## bailout (Mar 2, 2005)

i didn't bother slogging through all the posts here but I do have a few things to say about Spec bikes:

The Enduro SL (07-08?) is one sweet bike. Light, stiff, pedals damn well in technical stuff and descends pretty good as well. A true enduro rider's bike. I do hate the fact that there is minimal tire clearance at the fork arch. 

The "organic" designs of their new bikes are one of those either-you-love-it-or-hate-it things. I think the ones that aren't too OTT are nice (newer epic/stumpy/enduro and SX), the rest I think are ugly. The paint schemes are a bit better. Goodbye argyle paintjob, yuck!

I have managed to smack the downube of my bikes near the BB area somehow. I would hate to damage a hydro brake line that way. I guess it's no big deal as hits like those are probably as rare as they come since the chainrings partially protect that area.

I don't own any spec bikes except for my 95 rockhopper - great parts spec for it's time. Can't say the same for the lower priced ones of today.

I used to think that "Specialized" was an awful name for a bike brand until I learned about Giant.  

I like how specialized scientifically tests their frames. Don't hate on the big bike companies. They need to get big to afford expensive high-tech fab, R&D and testing.

I'd like to see these bigger bike companies spend more money to insure that mountainbiking will be around for our great great great grandchildren. No trails = no bike sales.


----------



## racer1337 (Oct 7, 2007)

Not being trendy is trendy, being trendy is trendy. Who cares what other people ride. I have a friend that could uni-cycle around most people here, ooops thats trandy too.


----------



## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

Listen all you douchebags who keep defending Specialized without actually reading the posts here.

People hate Spec because:
They are an aggressive bottom line corporation. Similar to Walmart. 
They use lots of house brand parts in their mid line bikes. And this should make them more affordable but it does not.
Specialized used to be a bargain, now they are just plain overpriced.
They use a lot of proprietary parts forcing an owner to stick with their specs. 
Most of their "innovation" has been purchased or outright stolen from other designers and their marketing would have you believe that they conceived these innovations.

Most here would agree that their frames are of excellent quality and the ride is also excellent.
No one is saying their bikes suck, Just the company. 
So if anyone can't understand why those points make some hate or "dislike" specialized, Then they are idiots.


----------



## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

snobrder5 said:


> and why are their no "i hate SC" threads? b/c no one hates SC....they're the best  :thumbsup:


You just wait. SC is getting nice and popular, the "I HATE SC" threads are just around the corner.


----------



## uncomplientspud (Apr 20, 2008)

lol


----------



## TheSubaruJunkie (Apr 6, 2008)

wormvine said:


> Listen all you douchebags who keep defending Specialized without actually reading the posts here.
> 
> People hate Spec because:
> They are an aggressive bottom line corporation. Similar to Walmart.
> ...


Again, none of those reasons are enough to make me hate Specialized. It seems Specialized is more than a bike company, they are a real business. Don't hate cause they want to turn a profit. 
Last I checked, i can use any BB, Brake Caliper, Headset or fork on my frame. Find me a Specialized frame where you cannot. And if I understand this correctly, the proprietary rear shocks are to keep other people from using them on non-specialized frames. Still doesn't bother me at all.



> Most here would agree that their frames are of excellent quality and the ride is also excellent.
> No one is saying their bikes suck


*THAT* should be the only thing that matters.



> So if anyone can't understand why those points make some hate or "dislike" specialized, Then they are idiots.


Guess that makes me an idiot....

...an idiot with a damn good bike!!


----------



## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

TheSubaruJunkie said:


> Again, none of those reasons are enough to make me hate Specialized. It seems Specialized is more than a bike company, they are a real business. Don't hate cause they want to turn a profit.
> Last I checked, i can use any BB, Brake Caliper, Headset or fork on my frame. Find me a Specialized frame where you cannot. And if I understand this correctly, the proprietary rear shocks are to keep other people from using them on non-specialized frames. Still doesn't bother me at all.
> 
> *THAT* should be the only thing that matters.
> ...


Are you a tort lawyer?
The thread title was, "Why hate Specialized?" not "Why does Subaru Junkie hate Specialized?". If you don't agree with the reasons fine, so be it. But don't act like it is so incredulous for others to dislike the company for the reasons listed. They are legitimate reasons.
There are lots of lawyers out there who don't see anything wrong with suing the crap out of someone and ruining their life for very lame reasons. You seem to have that flexible morals mentality. I get the impression your the type of guy who begs a friend to ride on his dirt jumps and when you wreck and get hurt, you sue him for letting you ride on the jumps.

I can ride any bike out there. There are many awesome choices out there. And contrary to what you believe, Lot's of us out there care how the companies we patronize do business and portray themselves to the public. It's not a new concept.

So take off your Che t-shirt and enlighten up!


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

chas_martel said:


> I hate that they route cables/hoses under the bottom bracket.
> 
> Why oh why do they do that. This one thing keeps me from
> even demo'ing a Spec.


That is the number 1 reason I love their frames. In addition to running full length housing, they have the best routing in the industry and it make for the only FS bikes that actually work well under all stages of swingarm compression.


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

scottzg said:


> leader in the US? Trek
> leader globally? Giant
> 
> I don't think either brand has too many haters.


wrong and wrong. Trek is not the US leader. And Giant makes the most bikes worldwide, but is not the worldwide leader in brand name.


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

HotBlack said:


> I'm just going to gloss over the laundry list of reasons people legitimately hate specialized.
> 
> From day one, Specialized was a profit-at-any-cost scrappy beast with highly questionable ethics. Over the years, the only thing that's changed is their size and financial power. From the original Stumpjumper (which they "innovated" by ordering a couple Ritcheys from Tom, and then sent them directly to Taiwan to have mass produced) to their purchase of the innovative Horst Link, and then cutting off builders who had licenses to it, to the Stratos ordeal, to the Epic Cycles and Mountain Cycles debacles, resulting in so much litigation the companies went out of business, etc...
> 
> ...


wah wah wah. go sing kum-bah-yah ya friggen hippy and realize that cycling is a business just like anything else. its not pretty.


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> I've never smoked before but if the Specialized feels best to you then I'd certainly like to know what you smoking/drinking/sniffing etc.
> 
> If it really does ride the best then I suggest you get it re painted ASAP, then it will no longer advertise Specialized and you can have the colour scheme of your choice.


Hey Laserlips, your mother was a snowblower.


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> Have you ridden the bike? Because I and some of the reviews have noticed that surprisingly you can actually feel the difference braking with ABP straight off, the fact that it uses this different implementation of design rather than having a huge floating brake contraption means that it is superior, there are of course still better systems like VPP and Maestro that don't need it but when you put it all together the Trek is one sweet ride.


 Someone drank the Trek kool-aid.............


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> And I'd like to point out that even if Fox/Specialized designs something perfectly, unless I am very badly informed it is SR Suntour that actually makes them which is where quite a few problems with their shocks have come from&#8230;particularly the ones on the Enduro SL.


And how is this bad in opposition to Trek's ability to (poorly) operate a TIG welder?


----------



## Qatarbhoy (Jun 13, 2008)

snowblowers, kool-aid, friggin hippies...

any chance of some rational arguments chequa, or is just insults from here on in?


----------



## [email protected] (May 25, 2008)

How much do any of you actually know about Specialized's business practices and how evil they are? Or are you just going off what your mates heard from some bloke down the pub.

I wonder if Shimano or SRAM are happy-clappy boutique hippies as well?

In your list of evil companies there is what: Enron, Halliburton, Nestle, McDonalds and Specialized?


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

Qatarbhoy said:


> snowblowers, kool-aid, friggin hippies...
> 
> any chance of some rational arguments chequa, or is just insults from here on in?


Those are not insults my friend. Those are input at the same rational and maturity level as the rest of this thread.


----------



## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> How much do any of you actually know about Specialized's business practices and how evil they are? Or are you just going off what your mates heard from some bloke down the pub.
> 
> I wonder if Shimano or SRAM are happy-clappy boutique hippies as well?
> 
> In your list of evil companies there is what: Enron, Halliburton, Nestle, McDonalds and Specialized?


You forgot WalMart.


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> How much do any of you actually know about Specialized's business practices and how evil they are? Or are you just going off what your mates heard from some bloke down the pub.
> 
> I wonder if Shimano or SRAM are happy-clappy boutique hippies as well?
> 
> In your list of evil companies there is what: Enron, Halliburton, Nestle, McDonalds and Specialized?


Exactly. None of these guys knows a damn, they just hear rumors and repeat.

I work for a Specialized dealer, and I have worked for, and part-owned other dealerships in the past, including Trek, Giant, Derby (Raleigh, DB), etc. The concept of Spec crapping on dealers is the furthest from the truth. They bend over backwards for their dealers, even a small one in a small market.

Spec got a lot of press when they built a concept store in So Cal and one of their dealers sued them, and then the dealer was yanked. However, this is the modus operandi for another competing brand, and while the Spec ordeal was made public, the other brand has a much worse reputation among dealers for doing this, in fact they just did it again 2 months ago. From a dealer perspective, Spec is the safest bet for not getting trampled by a large corp acting in their own best interest. Very strange that public perception is the opposite, but people can believe whatever they want.

Somebody also mentioned warranty. First, I replace Spec parts on warranty at a rate of about 20% compared to other large brands. It is much less common to see Spec frames or large parts break. Second, when dealing with their warranty dept, I have never had a claim denied, and they most often 2-day air the part or frame without being asked so that the customer is back on their bike ASAP.

I do this full-time, 40 hours a week for a living. Dealing with Spec both as a corp, and selling their product is MUCH less stressful than other competing brands.

Plus, riding them is far more enjoyable too....


----------



## Rogue Rider x (Mar 8, 2008)

Its sad to see this kind of trashing, eSpeshially in the Passion forum. Do you hate Coke because you love Pepsi?

Dont get me wrong, there are plenty of points of differentiation among bike manufacturers. But in the end, IMO it really doesn't matter _what _you ride, be it a Huffy or a RadioFlyer or a [fill in the blank of your favorite high-end brand] -- what matters is _that_ you ride!


----------



## [email protected] (May 25, 2008)

m0ngy said:


> my first mtb was a '97 stumpy and *i loved it*, but i would never buy another specialized bike, ever. why would i? everyone has one, they're common as sh!t


This sums up the whole issue really.


----------



## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

Rogue Rider x said:


> Its sad to see this kind of trashing, eSpeshially in the Passion forum. Do you hate Coke because you love Pepsi?
> 
> Dont get me wrong, there are plenty of points of differentiation among bike manufacturers. But in the end, IMO it really doesn't matter _what _you ride, be it a Huffy or a RadioFlyer or a [fill in the blank of your favorite high-end brand] -- what matters is _that_ you ride!


I wouldn't take this seriously. It's pretty obvious that the person who started the thread likes to stir it up, and is either bored out of his skull or is just a miserable person. Maybe both.


----------



## DirtGash (Mar 1, 2008)

If you're into the market for a specialized, buy a Norco instead. Better spec'ed, cheaper priced bikes, and you still get the FSR suspension.


----------



## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

It's fairly obvious that all the Specialized owners just can't admit that others out there believe that Spec is a bad company. And there is much more information out there than just some bro's opinion. This topic has been covered many, many times. They have truly drank the cool-aid.


----------



## Qatarbhoy (Jun 13, 2008)

if passionate riders are meant to be like the Spartans in '300' then we really are in trouble: do we want to be misogynistic racists with a serious homoeroticism problem who leave handicapped babies to die? no thanks! we get enough problems just wearing lycra.

besides they are way too bulked up for cycling.


----------



## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

Rogue Rider x said:


> Its sad to see this kind of trashing, eSpeshially in the Passion forum. Do you hate Coke because you love Pepsi?
> 
> Dont get me wrong, there are plenty of points of differentiation among bike manufacturers. But in the end, IMO it really doesn't matter _what _you ride, be it a Huffy or a RadioFlyer or a [fill in the blank of your favorite high-end brand] -- what matters is _that_ you ride!


Coke vs Pepsi? That is about the most stupid point ever. And it shows your ignorance.
This thread is not about preference. " I like this bike cause it's not that bike."
It's saying I drink Coke cause Pepsi underpays their employees, won't hire minorities, openly hates black people, lies about their product to the public, etc. 
Maybe you should read the thread before posting such ignorant comments.


----------



## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

DirtGash said:


> If you're into the market for a specialized, buy a Norco instead. Better spec'ed, cheaper priced bikes, and you still get the FSR suspension.


They look like decent bikes but show me where I can test ride one without traveling up to Canada.


----------



## racer1337 (Oct 7, 2007)




----------



## grum[email protected] (May 25, 2008)

m0ngy said:


> specialized suck cause they do. my first mtb was a '97 stumpy and i loved it, but i would never buy another specialized bike, ever. why would i? everyone has one, they're common


Hmm I thought I already posted this but here is all the Specialized hate summed up in one sentence.

'Good bikes but not trendy and exclusive enough for me'


----------



## Damitletsride! (Feb 4, 2004)

Mass produced, not much attention to detail compared with other companies i feel. I know people that own them and like them, but i would'nt buy one.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

chequamagon said:


> Hey Laserlips, your mother was a snowblower.


Laserlips, cheers I actually think that's a pretty cool name.



> Someone drank the Trek kool-aid..........&#8230;


Ride it and you'll see why too&#8230;:thumbsup:



> And how is this bad in opposition to Trek's ability to (poorly) operate a TIG welder?


I wonder if you know who makes Trek's aluminium bikes as of a year or so ago? You my be surprised if you don't already know.


----------



## TLL (Apr 28, 2008)

Rogue Rider x said:


> Its sad to see this kind of trashing, eSpeshially in the Passion forum. Do you hate Coke because you love Pepsi?
> 
> Dont get me wrong, there are plenty of points of differentiation among bike manufacturers. But in the end, IMO it really doesn't matter _what _you ride, be it a Huffy or a RadioFlyer or a [fill in the blank of your favorite high-end brand] -- what matters is _that_ you ride!


Given the trashing that Ells sometimes takes on the internet, I'm glad to see you have a positive attitude.



wormvine said:


> People hate Spec because:
> They are an aggressive bottom line corporation. Similar to Walmart.


And this is bad HOW? As a business, it is their job to maximize revenue.



wormvine said:


> They use lots of house brand parts in their mid line bikes. And this should make them more affordable but it does not. They use a lot of proprietary parts forcing an owner to stick with their specs.


As do Trek, Cannondale, Fisher . . . .



wormvine said:


> Most of their "innovation" has been purchased or outright stolen from other designers and their marketing would have you believe that they conceived these innovations.


They paid for the Horst fair and square. Though that is really all I have in their defense, because they really are weasels when it comes to IP.

I really don't care what you ride. . . as long as you do ride.


----------



## bullit44777 (May 30, 2006)

IT HAPPENED AGAIN! On my ride today I was noticing all the riders on Specialized, one guy smoked me uphill....then at the end of my ride, I'm at my car, and a guy drives up with a Specialized in his truck, I nod "sup?" and he didn't even say hi! In fact he parked and ran to the bathroom wtf is wrong with you people?


----------



## TheSubaruJunkie (Apr 6, 2008)

bullit44777 said:


> IT HAPPENED AGAIN! On my ride today I was noticing all the riders on Specialized, one guy smoked me uphill....then at the end of my ride, I'm at my car, and a guy drives up with a Specialized in his truck, I nod "sup?" and he didn't even say hi! In fact he parked and ran to the bathroom wtf is wrong with you people?


The guy was just a d!ck. You can't classify every specialized rider like that. I do my part to smile, wave, "good morning/afternoon" to every rider I pass or that passes me. Not cause im a specialized rider, but becuase I'm a friendly guy in general.

Im also loyale to the products I use. Subaru's, and Specialized.


----------



## pt3r (Mar 8, 2008)

bullit44777 said:


> IT HAPPENED AGAIN! On my ride today I was noticing all the riders on Specialized, one guy smoked me uphill....then at the end of my ride, I'm at my car, and a guy drives up with a Specialized in his truck, I nod "sup?" and he didn't even say hi! In fact he parked and ran to the bathroom wtf is wrong with you people?


Could be he had the runs, what do you know?


----------



## The Understater (May 6, 2007)

I went to a bike shop yesterday to look at a Wee-ride bike seat for my little boy. It happened to be a shop that stocks mostly Specialized. I was busy finding out that despite the web-site claims, the shop had never had any Wee-rides when I overheard the salesman trying to sell a new customer on an Enduro.
The guy was asking the kind of questions that identified him as new to the mtb game, so he probably believed everything he was told which was this:
Until Specialized released the Enduro, 6" travel bikes were only really used by riders who were into jumping, and it was the Enduro that legitimized 6" travel bikes for regular trail riding, because of the great suspension performance, pedalling efficiency, and light weight.

What bollocks.
Maybe it was just this particular sales guy, but it made me wonder how many riders are out there on the trails riding a Specialized because they've been suckered into believing that Specialized invented the wheel.


----------



## [email protected] (May 25, 2008)

Maybe we could start talking about whether Macs are better than PCs or not instead? Being a Specialized owner, I suppose I should really prefer a PC, but I just think Macs are so much nicer to use ;P


----------



## -.---.- (Jun 15, 2007)

My specialized is a great ride. Durable light, and definitely equal (in quality and value) to other bikes of the same level. Great company in my opinion.


----------



## jawndoe (Feb 7, 2008)

My Specialized Bike Rocks!

It is made in the USA... It's a 02 S-Works FSR/XC has XO drivetrain with Reba Team Fork, King Headset, 1450g wheels and lots of other nice stuff. Bike is 25lbs now!

The Specialized BG stuff actualy works too. I have a pair of gloves, grips, and saddle. All of the BG products I have used increased my conform and endurance compared to other brands, only grips better than BG are Ergon... Combine Ergon Grips with BG gloves and its pure joy on the trails.

So a big middle finger to all who hate just because they don't have it. 

If anything the only legit gripe against spesh is that they moved their whole frame production overseas. My next frame is going to be a Ventana El Saltamontes, only because I can have a custom fit for a reasonable price and the factory is 45 mins from my home by bike! I believe in supporting local econimies first. I would most definatly consider purchasing a 09 S-Works "Sauser Special" Frame at the same price (or even up to $200 more) of a Ventana if I could get a custom fit and it was made in the U.S.A.

oh yeah and Santa Cruz frames are made in China too... Taiwan is China...


----------



## RfQ (Jun 10, 2006)

Does Specialized still make a steel MTB?


----------



## TLL (Apr 28, 2008)

jawndoe said:


> If anything the only legit gripe against spesh is that they moved their whole frame production overseas. My next frame is going to be a Ventana El Saltamontes, only because I can have a custom fit for a reasonable price and the factory is 45 mins from my home by bike! I believe in supporting local econimies first. I would most definatly consider purchasing a 09 S-Works "Sauser Special" Frame at the same price (or even up to $200 more) of a Ventana if I could get a custom fit and it was made in the U.S.A.
> 
> oh yeah and Santa Cruz frames are made in China too... Taiwan is China...


Good choice on the Salty. :thumbsup:

Big difference in quality between Taiwan and China. Taiwanese frames are generally of very high quality, compared to the stuff made on the mainland.


----------



## jawndoe (Feb 7, 2008)

TLL said:


> Good choice on the Salty. :thumbsup:
> 
> Big difference in quality between Taiwan and China. Taiwanese frames are generally of very high quality, compared to the stuff made on the mainland.


Last time I checked.... Taiwan is a part of China....


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

jawndoe said:


> Last time I checked.... Taiwan is a part of China....


Maybe politically, but Taiwan has much different standards on manufacturing than China.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

TLL said:


> Good choice on the Salty. :thumbsup:
> 
> Big difference in quality between Taiwan and China. Taiwanese frames are generally of very high quality, compared to the stuff made on the mainland.


A big difference comes form Giant, the 4 million bikes they make in China are middle and low end, the 920,000 they make in Taiwan are generally the top end bikes in their state of the art light metal facility (probably spelt wrong).

Fortunately Giant no longer makes bikes for Specialized so that doesn't matter really.


----------



## Keatan (Apr 23, 2008)

jawndoe said:


> Last time I checked.... Taiwan is a part of China....


Hmm....you should check facts more often. Taiwan is ruled by the Republic of China, a group that was ran out after World War II. They then claimed they still controlled all of mainland China and we (the United States) chose to politically believe that until the Reagan visit. Now most western nations see them as two different governments. The Peoples Republic of China controls mainland China and claim that Taiwan is not a sovereign nation. So unless you actually live in mainland China then your country most likely considers Taiwan as a different country.

I have no opinion on Specialized and I have no allegiance to any other bike company. These threads are very amusing though, and I like to follow along. Look out for me to step in next time someone makes a statement like that.:thumbsup:


----------



## DirtGash (Mar 1, 2008)

jh251 said:


> They look like decent bikes but show me where I can test ride one without traveling up to Canada.


Yeah that is the problem, Norcos still aren't widely distributed in the US. I've been fortunatne living in a state with numerous Norco dealers and have been a die hard fan since I bought mine 4 years ago. Though the new models are looking ugly, kind of like Specialized bikes...uuuuggggggllllyyyyyy

On the Specialized thingy....it's truly a love/hate thing. THey've been around forever and always at the forefront of the industry rather it;s due to marketing or an actual innovative desgin, seems everyone (except me) has owned one at one point or another. Personally I think they are ugly (did I mention that before?), and not too keen on the prices they sell with most being completely spec'ed with in house components, save the shifters/derailluers. For doing 90% in house components right down to tires and suspension, you'd think their bikes would be alot cheaper. And if I wanted a DC fork on my bike, it better have alot more then 6 inches of travel...what's the point? On the happier side of the specialized gay fence, I still am a big fan of the Big Hit, dunno why, it just looks cool and rides good enough...also one of their cheapest rides! The Demo is cool too, but like what has been said more times then ever, at that price I could be riding a Foes, Yeti, Knolly, 2 New Norcos, blah, blah, blah


----------



## LeStrong (Jun 28, 2006)

Seriously why should anyone be hating any brand? I work at a bike shop and my take on the brands out there is that I think they are great otherwise they wouldn't be in the market. Each brand brings something unique to the playing field. 
I tell customers that when it comes to brands, my job is simple, making sure that they buy the right bike, whether that bike is from our shop or another shop. If the none of bike doesn't fit them, I simply tell, "perhaps should look into another brand" because I would rather have a happy customer riding any kind of bike, than a customer unhappy because they bought the wrong bike. 
I say when it comes to purchasing a bike, the three things I look for is
1. fit and ride quality
2. visual appeal, you like how the bike looks?
3. the connection, I know that sounds weird, but I'm sure you've hoped onto a bike and felt like "this is the bike" or it's hard to describe it.

But I'm sure people have their reasons of hating brands because of some negative experience. However some of this negative experience could be blamed on the bike shop, who did not do a proper job communicating between the company and the customer.
So my conclusion is, don't be hating :thumbsup:


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> A big difference comes form Giant, the 4 million bikes they make in China are middle and low end, the 920,000 they make in Taiwan are generally the top end bikes in their state of the art light metal facility (probably spelt wrong).
> 
> Fortunately Giant no longer makes bikes for Specialized so that doesn't matter really.


Can I get some of that good crack you are smoking?

Taiwan's higher quality standards have nothing to do with Giant. It is this way across the board, and with all industries that use them for manufacturing.

And Giant does still make a few bikes for Specialized.


----------



## 73h 8r!110 (Jan 25, 2008)

QUOTE: jh251 - I wouldn't take this seriously. It's pretty obvious that the person who started the thread likes to stir it up, and is either bored out of his skull or is just a miserable person. Maybe both. 


hey jh251, you couldnt be farther from the truth. The fact is, i;m pretty new to MTBR and i was just curious about the answer. Every now and then i hear poeple say something bad about Spesh, and i never heard an explanation. Relax, it was just a curius question


----------



## PCinSC (Oct 25, 2005)

RfQ said:


> Does Specialized still make a steel MTB?


They make the P2 chromoly dirt jump bike.










Also, I can't believe that this thread is still going. Well, actually I can.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

chequamagon said:


> Taiwan's higher quality standards have nothing to do with Giant. It is this way across the board, and with all industries that use them for manufacturing.


You clearly missed my point there&#8230;:nono:




> And Giant does still make a few bikes for Specialized.


Unless you have heard differently I know for a fact Giant ONLY makes bikes for Scott, Trek, Colnago and Panasonic which accounts for the 30% of bikes they make that are not their own.Unless of course Specialized is trying very hard to cover up who makes their bikes and has even instructed Giant themselves to tell lies about it.


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

chequamagon said:


> Exactly. None of these guys knows a damn, they just hear rumors and repeat.
> 
> I work for a Specialized dealer, .


HAHAHAAHAAAAAAAA

Wow.


----------



## gallorody (Feb 1, 2004)

Isn't the demand by the consumer what sets pricing?


----------



## jake7 (Jul 25, 2006)

chas_martel said:


> I hate that they route cables/hoses under the bottom bracket.
> 
> Why oh why do they do that. This one thing keeps me from
> even demo'ing a Spec.


Wow, actually a valid, logical response ... how refreshing:thumbsup:


----------



## demondan (Jul 25, 2008)

its easy to hate them?


----------



## DrNickels (Jan 7, 2008)

> Hmm....you should check facts more often. Taiwan is ruled by the Republic of China, a group that was ran out after World War II. They then claimed they still controlled all of mainland China and we (the United States) chose to politically believe that until the Reagan visit. Now most western nations see them as two different governments. The Peoples Republic of China controls mainland China and claim that Taiwan is not a sovereign nation. So unless you actually live in mainland China then your country most likely considers Taiwan as a different country.


Yeah you have a point. I wish my friend Chin-Han would have read the guys comment about Taiwan vs China production! Taiwanese people hate China and know they would love to scoop their country up for it's mass production abilities.

As for China they are a sleeping giant that really scares the holy bejeebus out of me.

They are way too overpopulated, control way too much of the world's wealth through manufacturing and they have almost destroyed their entire country's ecosystem so that the ground water is mainly toxic sludge. How did they get to host the olympic games again? Wait until China eats up all it's natural resources, yet still controls production of most of the world's goods. They will be in the perfect position to invade other countries and plunder natural resources.


----------



## KONA_in_SB (May 20, 2004)

jawndoe said:


> Last time I checked.... Taiwan is a part of China....


Last time I checked Taiwan doens't consider themselves part of China, and niether does the US. You should check again. 
And, the manufacturing in Taiwan is way higher quality than that of China.


----------



## Keatan (Apr 23, 2008)

*Lets turn this into a debate about China!!*

Not only would that be something that hasn't been discussed on this forum fifty times before but it would be something that mattered. Are they any type of threat? Should we have boycotted the Olympics? How long will the occupation of Tibet last? Will China expand capitalism to their entire country instead of just a few provinces? Will China invade Taiwan possibly setting off a world war? (The US has supplied weapons and training to Taiwan in the past, an invasion by China would most likely lead to US military action). And most importantly, what kind of mountain bikes do the Chinese ride? Do they hate Specialized? Do they love them? How do they feel about 29ers, SS's and riders with more money than skill? This could be fun!


----------



## Ktse (Jul 12, 2008)

DrNickels said:


> Yeah you have a point. I wish my friend Chin-Han would have read the guys comment about Taiwan vs China production! Taiwanese people hate China and know they would love to scoop their country up for it's mass production abilities.
> 
> As for China they are a sleeping giant that really scares the holy bejeebus out of me.
> 
> They are way too overpopulated, control way too much of the world's wealth through manufacturing and they have almost destroyed their entire country's ecosystem so that the ground water is mainly toxic sludge. How did they get to host the olympic games again? Wait until China eats up all it's natural resources, yet still controls production of most of the world's goods. They will be in the perfect position to invade other countries and plunder natural resources.


I truly hope you own NOTHING from China. Let me guess, you're one of those anti-walmart types too? If you'd replaced China with America, your statement would make just as much sense.

But I'm with you on the whole let's hate the Chinese brigade; after all they're azn... and uh, they hate bikes, and uhm... oh they hate Tibetans... and uh, damn most of my family is Chinese, **** they are taking over!


----------



## hotlaksa (Feb 11, 2004)

*Get over it!*

You like their bikes, buy one, or ride one.
You dont like their bikes, dont buy one or ride one.
It's really that simple.

All bike comnpanies have their own version of maketing hype, Specialized is no different.


----------



## psychobilly808 (Aug 26, 2007)

woohoo lets beat dead horses, personally I like spcialized but a lot of people find their bikes ugly, I don't own any of their mtn products other than a pair of shoes, I LOVE my specialized road bike (tarmac) I'l admit it looks kinda funky, (to much wheel not enough frame" but it handles like it's on rails, light, stiff and climbs like a mountain goat, form follows function in my opinion. 
just my 2 cents.


----------



## racer1337 (Oct 7, 2007)

I like cheese.


----------



## Everyzig2101 (Jun 5, 2008)

I will chime in to defend specialized. they are one of the only companies that make 23" frames available at low prices (given that i'm nearly 6'8" specialized basically saved the day for me as a poor student), and, when i paid the ridiculous overcharge for my rockhopper 29er (which has pretty much no original components left on it), I got free bike shop labor for 2 years on all maintenance and repairs (obviously i still pay for parts). I dont really know how many other lbs do that, but the specialized 29ers have lower centers of gravity and lighter frames than their competitors (ie: gary fisher) at the same price point.


----------



## bprsnt (Jul 23, 2008)

I wanted a new Cannondale because the frames always said made in the USA.
Not anymore.....
I just bought a Specialized Rockhopper Pro and it is a great bike.


----------



## lib (Jun 29, 2008)

After reading the last 8 pages I think I learned the answer to the OP's question: People seem to hate Specialized because it's the trendy thing to do.

All that matters is that you like your bike. If someone else has a problem with it that's their problem - not yours.


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

lib said:


> After reading the last 8 pages I think I learned the answer to the OP's question: People seem to hate Specialized because it's the trendy thing to do.
> 
> All that matters is that you like your bike. If someone else has a problem with it that's their problem - not yours.


That's seriously all you got out of it, huh.
To be fair, there was a lot of mudslinging going on in here.

Some of us do have a beef with SBC. Ourselves or our employers have lost our asses because no one can afford to fight them when they pull needlessly aggressive, legally questionable, ethically dubious sh*t like they do. That they have an actual staff of lawyers to keep busy should tell you something. That they know it, and have been acting accordingly for the last couple decades is why they have the less than stellar reputation they do. It was earned the hard way.

Really precious seeing some of the replies. Apparently, the entire rest of the bike industry is just kumbaya-singing and hand-holding. Some real winners in here. Ethics, morals, who needs em, when there's money to be made? Anything for a buck, eh? Now that's integrity worth voting for with your wallet.

I could give a rats ass about trendy. ...and I'd wager that based on their sales, the "trend" isn't anti-specialized.

That's as much as I care to get into it. Ever again.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

HotBlack said:


> Some of us do have a beef with SBC.


even more do not.

they will allow customers to return tyres and saddles if people don't like them after using them. who else does that?

we have less warranty problems with specialized than with any other company. they will often even replace questionable damage without a blink in the interest of customer satisfaction.

both of the above are part of why specialized bikes have a higher price point, these costs have to be covered somehow.



HotBlack said:


> Ourselves or our employers have lost our asses because no one can afford to fight them when they pull needlessly aggressive, legally questionable, ethically dubious sh*t like they do.


specific examples, please.



HotBlack said:


> That they have an actual staff of lawyers to keep busy should tell you something.


someone has been watching too much pinky and the brain. having a legal department doesn't mean that a company is constantly hatching nefarious plots to take over the world. in fact, its tells anyone with even half of a wit that they, like ALL major corporations, have a legal department.



HotBlack said:


> Really precious seeing some of the replies. Apparently, the entire rest of the bike industry is just kumbaya-singing and hand-holding. Some real winners in here.


the only kumbaya-singing-hand-holding-real-winner types are the ones that think it is a company's job to play nice with other companies. free market capitalism is about market share, making money, and stock dividends; not playing nice. if a company is shrewd enough to make some slick moves and corner a market on a feature then more power to them. they do not owe, nor does any other company have the right to expect, something that is bought or patented by a specific company.

its hilarious that people are so bent about specialized buying exclusive rights/patents and prohibiting their use elsewhere, but are not mad at the inventor/designer for wanting to make money by selling the rights.



HotBlack said:


> Ethics, morals, who needs em, when there's money to be made? Anything for a buck, eh? Now that's integrity worth voting for with your wallet.


no one has yet to produce one single ILLEGAL act/practice that specialized has been involved with. not one.

personally, i find all the pissing and moaning hilarious. people who think that everyone should just share everything are called "socialists". free market capitalism IS about making money. it IS about being on top.

i say piss on all the red dog commie bastards. :lol:


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

monogod said:


> even more do not.
> 
> they will allow customers to return tyres and saddles if people don't like them after using them. who else does that?
> 
> ...


If you BOTHER to do some research and stop blindly defending Specialized you will find a lot of wrong and un ethical stuff they do including how bad their customer service is in the UK and many other things, I'm not going to bother to tell you all the awful things they have done because you can't be asked to open your eyes.:nono:


----------



## JMUSuperman (Jun 14, 2008)

Where can I get an after market fork for a 1 1/8" to 1 1/2" head tube on my Trek?


----------



## Plats (Jun 18, 2008)

This thread is SFG at this point, we need some fresh material, someone kill this FG thread


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> If you BOTHER to do some research and stop blindly defending Specialized you will find a lot of wrong and un ethical stuff they do including how bad their customer service is in the UK and many other things, I'm not going to bother to tell you all the awful things they have done because you can't be asked to open your eyes.:nono:


if they are so obvious then you shouldnt have any problem listing a few.

thats all ive asked.

thanks, i'll be waiting.


----------



## jaghouse (Mar 21, 2004)

dont kill the thread.... bring the hate because
spechy is boutique pricing, hydroform this, proprietary that, marketing hoopla:madmax: 
Innovate or die... ??? sure, whatevah >> go make another mold for next years frame.
:madmax:


----------



## Plats (Jun 18, 2008)

Okay, I get your point, Jag, but check out the latest 'moonraker' concept bike that Specialized revealed at the 2008 L.A. Bike show this year - this one is gonna make all previous bike designs obsolete. The only catch is it costs a cool $10,000, I know I am gonna get one.


----------



## The Understater (May 6, 2007)

Plats said:


> Okay, I get your point, Jag, but check out the latest 'moonraker' concept bike that Specialized revealed at the 2008 L.A. Bike show this year - this one is gonna make all previous bike designs obsolete. The only catch is it costs a cool $10,000, I know I am gonna get one.


No way! It doesn't even hover. What's the point?


----------



## [email protected] (May 25, 2008)

EGF168 said:


> If you BOTHER to do some research and stop blindly defending Specialized you will find a lot of wrong and un ethical stuff they do including how bad their customer service is in the UK and many other things, I'm not going to bother to tell you all the awful things they have done because you can't be asked to open your eyes.:nono:


When I was looking into what bike to buy one of the things that attracted me to Specialized was that they have a really good reputation for their warranty, even often replacing things that are not technically covered.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

monogod said:


> if they are so obvious then you shouldnt have any problem listing a few.
> 
> thats all ive asked.
> 
> thanks, i'll be waiting.





> That has nothing to do with why I don't like them, sure protect your investment, but as I have said earlier you shouldn't pull out of deals at the last minute when you've already agreed something. Also perhaps you haven't noticed but a Specialized dealer has switched to another brand, guess what Spesh does, they open up a concept store only a few streets away. I have found their customer service to be nothing short of abysmal, I mean really abysmal, passing the buck like crazy is not considered to be customer service where I live. They have also forced Fox to stop making their Terralogic forks because they have slightly similar technologies to the Brain which was also originally designed by Fox but Spesh stabbed them in the back with lawyers. They lean very heavily on US products, now that would be fine if they worked but they don't. They at one point were buying up all the web domains of their competitors so you went to the company you wanted and you ended up at Specialized.com. Cannondale came out with the BB30 several yrs ago and let any company use it so long as they used the BB30 logo and name, but no Spesh says it is their creation and wont put the logo and name onto their road bikes that have the BB30. Most of the cycling industry supports each other and just gets on with it, but Spesh does everything it can to undermine and hinder it's competitors, no other company does this. They have no respect for other manufacturers and or their customers, as I found out they are very helpful if they can see a gain through it like fixing problems with their own brand suspension which will make them sell more in the future and keep allot of customers but as soon as someone with less wide spread problems comes along they don't want to know about it. All they know how to do is hide behind lawyers just like my neighbours, and they didn't end up happy, they got a massive bill from the lawyers and a roller parked across their driveway for 2 weeks. My final point is that Specialized are just a big company with too much power/lawyers that are getting scared, they know that Ibis, Giant, Cannondale, Trek and allot of other companies are easily coming out with better bikes.


That is a quote from another thread which shows just a few of the things they have done.:thumbsup:


----------



## TLL (Apr 28, 2008)

Why are you people still posting to this thread? Give it a rest.


----------



## winchboy (May 2, 2006)

I hate Special ed's, Giant, Trek, Pacific, Huffy, Diamond Back, Motobecan, ect because I ride a hand made botique bike and so would urinate on the frame of any lesser ride....
Especially when that brands rider beats me to the top of a climb, through the twisties or out speeds me down a gnarley gravity assisted run. THAT PISSES ME OFF!!!!


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> That is a quote from another thread which shows just a few of the things they have done.:thumbsup:


translation: "_i can vocalize no quantifiable reason and can offer no substantive proof. however i can regurgitate the opinion, speculation, and innuendo of others._"

still waiting...


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

monogod said:


> translation: "_i can vocalize no quantifiable reason and can offer no substantive proof. however i can regurgitate the opinion, speculation, and innuendo of others._"
> 
> still waiting...


Actually I was quoting myself from the Specialized forum&#8230;


----------



## S.T.I.N.C. (Aug 1, 2008)

My first mountain bike was a Specialized Rockhopper and it held up well over a few years. Granted, I never pushed the limits of the bike, but it held up to everything I subjected it to. While it was a great "first bike," I haven't bought another one. Since I've owned my Specialized, I've owned a Cannondale and two Jamis bikes. From my personal experience, I found the customer service offered by Specialized is equal to that offered by Cannondale. However, with that being said, I have found that Jamis exceeds them both.

I tend to think that Specialized bikes are a bit over-priced, but as a few have pointed out, they have added costs within the company which must be (unfortunately) absorbed by the customer.


----------



## fastale (Jul 2, 2007)

EGF168 said:


> Actually I was quoting myself from the Specialized forum&#8230;


So... you were quoting yourself to legitimize this argument? I don't want to get in the middle of this but it seems that one second you are claiming that it's well known fact, the next, you're asking him to believe your opinion?


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> Also perhaps you haven't noticed but a Specialized dealer has switched to another brand, guess what Spesh does, they open up a concept store only a few streets away.


Not really how that all happened, but you might not have really noticed that your beloved Trek does the same thing, but more often, most recently in Austin.



EFG168 said:


> They have also forced Fox to stop making their Terralogic forks because they have slightly similar technologies to the Brain which was also originally designed by Fox but Spesh stabbed them in the back with lawyers.


Wrong again. Terralogic was not a Fox creation, it was originated by Spec and contracted out to Fox. And Fox actually started the process to cease production of the technology.



EFG said:


> They at one point were buying up all the web domains of their competitors so you went to the company you wanted and you ended up at Specialized.com.


And this is bad how? Lots of corps in all industries do this.



efg said:


> Cannondale came out with the BB30 several yrs ago and let any company use it so long as they used the BB30 logo and name, but no Spesh says it is their creation and wont put the logo and name onto their road bikes that have the BB30.


Spec doesnt necessarily use BB30. Their frames are compatible with the system, but they are not using it in entirety. So marketing it at BB30 would actually be wrong.



EFG said:


> Most of the cycling industry supports each other and just gets on with it,


BULL-SH!T



EFG said:


> My final point is that Specialized are just a big company with too much power/lawyers that are getting scared,


You made that up. Do you really know how many lawyers are on the payroll of each bike company?

Your argument is lame in entirety and you have been reduced to irrelevant.


----------



## eat_dirt (May 26, 2008)

i think large bike manufacturers destroy innovation and homogenize the industry.

$pecialized is as to blame as trek.

these days i just buy frames from smaller companies because i really don't want to be told what kind of bike to buy.


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

eat_dirt said:


> i think large bike manufacturers destroy innovation and homogenize the industry.
> 
> $pecialized is as to blame as trek.
> 
> these days i just buy frames from smaller companies because i really don't want to be told what kind of bike to buy.


You must be right, because terrain-sensing lockout is not nearly as innovative as tig-welding steel tubes.


----------



## ar1981 (Oct 11, 2006)

chequamagon said:


> You must be right, because terrain-sensing lockout is not nearly as innovative as tig-welding steel tubes.


Dude, stop being a wanker.

And please tell me you didn't try and associate Specialized, Innovation and Inertia valves in the same sentence...


----------



## eat_dirt (May 26, 2008)

chequamagon said:


> You must be right, because terrain-sensing lockout is not nearly as innovative as tig-welding steel tubes.


innovations need to be meaningful to be useful.

fisher's "genesis," specialized's brain, cannondale's lefty... they're more brand-specific idiosyncracies than anything.

not that there's anything too bad about them, but you'd have a hard time telling if they really make a difference.


----------



## 11 Bravo (Mar 12, 2004)

monogod said:


> .........................still waiting...


You seem to know quite a bit about Specialized and are generally willing to defend them. That's fine with me so let me ask you a question.

Isn't it true that Mike Synard got one of Tom Ritchey's frames from Gary Fisher, then sent the frame overseas (Japan I think) and had it copied? He marketed the bike based on that frame as the Stumpjumper and that is the bike that broke things open for Specialized.

If this is true, it sure appears that he stole Tom Ritchey's design and intellectual property. He used that stolen design to benefit himself and his company.

This is the same company that will sue a competitor for using a name that sounds similar to the one they gave to that stolen design when they marketed it as their own.

Please correct me if this is wrong.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> Actually I was quoting myself from the Specialized forum&#8230;


oh, ok... my bad.

in that case it is only appropriate that i correct my statement...

"_i can vocalize no quantifiable reason and can offer no substantive proof. however i can regurgitate the opinion, speculation, and innuendo i previously posted elsewhere._"

chequamagon pretty much covered everything and summarized your position very succinctly in the final sentence of his post. the only thing i might add is this page. after perusal of the site it should be clear that someone has fed you some disinformation.

from the FAQ page... _*Q:* What is BB30? *A:* BB30 is a free bottom bracket bearing interface standard open to anyone to use._"

look man, i'm not saying that people don't have a right to hate anything or anyone they want for any reason they choose. they do. you do. so there's nothing personal.

but outside of mere opinion i'd just like to see some corroboration of some of the wild allegations that have been made.

still waiting...


----------



## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

ar1981 said:


> Dude, stop being a wanker.
> 
> And please tell me you didn't try and associate Specialized, Innovation and Inertia valves in the same sentence...


Hehe, ironically - we get to the crux of alot of hate with that statement. Stratos.


----------



## GoodStash (Jan 27, 2008)

fastale said:


> Curious, whats wrong with that?


I don't really hate any bike or any biker, but a guy I ride with has a Stumpy Hard tail and the housing below the bottom bracket is plastic. (I'm not sure if that's the case for all models) Anyways, we were in the middle of a pretty long ride and during a short downhill section a rock flipped up and shattered the housing leaving him with a bike that was almost useless. When I saw that I thought it was a pretty poor design, but they know what they're doing, I'm sure...


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Monogod and Chequamagon(you only managed to spell my username correctly once), you can feel free to correct anything YOU FEEL I have got wrong but your not persuading me and you never will because I paid £1500 for a bike, so many things stopped working on it I ended up paying another £700 trying to make it work and had to give up in the end because it was such a pile of rubbish, my dealer and Sram didn't want to know about it, that's not good but Specialized on two occasions were rude, inconsiderate and seem to enjoy swearing at their customers and never got back to me on the emails and letters I sent them and I know the letters were received by them.:nono: 

I've got my reason to hate Spesh but Monogod can go find his own if he's so interested...


----------



## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

eat_dirt said:


> innovations need to be meaningful to be useful.


It also helps if they are you own - stealing them by sueing whoever owns them doesnt really count as innovation in my eyes.



eat_dirt said:


> fisher's "genesis," specialized's brain,


Out of curiousity - you know that neither of these two "innovations" were initiated in the bike world by the companies now famous for them, dont you?

The concept of what we now call Genesis geometry began quite a while ago - with Barracuda (before taken over to produce reall low enders) I believe. Im not sure of the specifics so I wont bash fisher on it, I somehow doubt they would do a specialised on it though.

"Specialized's brain" (aka, inertia valved shocks) was a technology first employed in bikes by Stratos (search it up, theres plenty about it around) who were sued by specialised with the common concensus being that it was cheaper than leasing or buying the patent from them.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> Monogod and Chequamagon(you only managed to spell my username correctly once), you can feel free to correct anything YOU FEEL I have got wrong but your not persuading me and you never will because I paid £1500 for a bike, so many things stopped working on it I ended up paying another £700 trying to make it work and had to give up in the end because it was such a pile of rubbish, my dealer and Sram didn't want to know about it, that's not good but Specialized on two occasions were rude, inconsiderate and seem to enjoy swearing at their customers and never got back to me on the emails and letters I sent them and I know the letters were received by them.:nono:
> 
> I've got my reason to hate Spesh but Monogod can go find his own if he's so interested...


ok, now you FINALLY posted a valid reason to hate specialized. if you did indeed buy a bike and had a problem with it, and then the dealer's response was to swear at you, then that is certainly reason to be upset and i certainly wouldn't try to persuade you other wise.

what did you do beyond that? did you go to another shop? any shop can handle the warranty service. did you contact the outside rep? or did you just send a couple of letters and emails and let it go at that?

most dealers don't stay in business by swearing at their customers, and there are much better methods of seeking relief than getting on the interwebs and spreading disinformation and outright lies and erroneous "facts".

and yes, everything else you posted about specialized was wrong, and it has nothing to do with how WE FEEL it has to do with facts. all of the talking points in your previous rant are based on disinformation, rumor, or commonly held misconceptions.

if i were treated as you were i would not appreciate it either. however, there are avenues to pursue to remedy the situation that are as close as your telephone. and on the off chance that all of the dealers in the u.k. were to swear at you and refuse to address the issue then you contact the outside rep. and on the very, very off chance that you still got no satisfaction then file a claim in small claims court. but having personally seen specialized warranty things that were customer abuse and crash damage in the interest of customer satisfaction i would find it hard to believe it would go that far.

and as always, there are TWO sides to the story. did you go in with a pissy attitude? were you ugly to them? if you went into the shop with a chip on your shoulder ready for a war you may have gotten exactly what you were asking for.

you draw far more flies with honey than vinegar.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

11 Bravo said:


> Isn't it true that Mike Synard got one of Tom Ritchey's frames from Gary Fisher, then sent the frame overseas (Japan I think) and had it copied? He marketed the bike based on that frame as the Stumpjumper and that is the bike that broke things open for Specialized.
> 
> If this is true, it sure appears that he stole Tom Ritchey's design and intellectual property. He used that stolen design to benefit himself and his company.


so by your logic head tube angles, seat tube angles, chainstay lengths, bb heights, etc. are all intellectual property?

so this means that, by your logic, that most all modern builders are unethical thieves because they were not the first to use the measurements and angles in their product's geometry.

lets say i love how my niner air9 handles and want one made out of ti so i send the frame to an independent dealer to duplicate in ti.

is this unethical? does that builder need to get permission from niner? or do they owe royalties to niner? uh.... no. :nono:



11 Bravo said:


> This is the same company that will sue a competitor for using a name that sounds similar to the one they gave to that stolen design when they marketed it as their own.


tom had the option to sue. you know why he didn't? because he had no case. basic bike geometry angles aren't proprietary and can't be patented or considered intellectual property.

also, that is a poor comparison to using a model name that is very similar to a registered trademark. general bike geometry and a registered trademark or brand/model name can hardly be considered even remotely similar. but by your logic the entire genre of mtb'ing manufacturers are nothing but a bunch of unethical, thieving, bastids unless they were the absolute first to use a specific geometry.

when designers find angles and geometry that work they are generally adopted by other manufacturers. this is not considered stealing. it is how advances in designs are achieved, not just in cycling but in the automotive industry; electronics industry; etc, etc, etc,.



11 Bravo said:


> Please correct me if this is wrong.


was the geometry of ritchey's bike duplicated? yes.

was it wrong/unethical/illegal? no.


----------



## Screamer (May 1, 2008)

In hating Specialized bikes should I also hate Specialized bikers...


----------



## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

Screamer said:


> In hating Specialized bikes should I also hate Specialized bikers...


Not necessarily.

Most of them are simply people that believed the hype, or liked the bike - and know nothing of the real reasons people have for hating them (most specialised owners will never have heard of Stratos).

That said, I wouldnt buy one because I disapprove of what happened there, and I dislike the company for it (among other things) - but my morals dont have to be everyone elses.


----------



## Wideside66 (Apr 4, 2007)

Don’t hate the Player hate the game!


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

EnglishT said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Most of them are simply people that believed the hype, or liked the bike - and know nothing of the real reasons people have for hating them (most specialised owners will never have heard of Stratos).
> 
> That said, I wouldnt buy one because I disapprove of what happened there, and I dislike the company for it (among other things)


if you're not using an apple, are you using a genuine ibm computer? if not you are using a clone utilizing architecture ripped off from them.

using a microsoft os? ripped off again.

is your dvd player a phillips? they designed it and everyone else copied it.

george westinghouse bought the rights to alternating current from nikola tesla. now alternating current is the standard and royalties are not paid to the westinghouse estate for its use. so if you're using alternating current, which you are, the intellectual property is ripped off and being used without proper royalty compensation.

i could go on and on, but i think you get the idea.



EnglishT said:


> but my morals dont have to be everyone elses.


taking the above into consideration it sounds like situational ethics.


----------



## EnglishT (Apr 9, 2008)

monogod said:


> if you're not using an apple, are you using a genuine ibm computer? if not you are using a clone utilizing architecture ripped off from them.
> *Sort of - by a company related to them. Though not from knowledge - just a happy coincidence. Ignorance is an excuse, and I think that my view was pretty clear in my reply as regards that. Computers arent something I know an awful lot about to tell the truth.*
> 
> using a microsoft os? ripped off again.
> ...


*I think you can kind of see my point - ignorance IS an excuse.. Lets face it, how can someone be expected to make an informed decision without knowing that information (or even knowing to look for it).

The other point I would bring up is that in certain industries (computing, electronics in general) - this sort of behaviour is commonplace and its accepted - there are few companies that have played fair totally, mainly because they cannot compete and stay in existance if they do.
The bike industry isnt like this - it could easily be (and certain companies are) but for the most part, its a relatively fair game.
If you dont think that the Stratos affairs were a good reason not to buy Specialized - go ahead, I wont think any less of you - but I wont touch them myself.*


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

EnglishT said:


> Now you are just getting silly - when prior formats (such as VHS) existed already, if ONLY phillips was making DVD machines, then the format wouldn't have caught on - so it was in their interests that it be spread further, eh?


well, actually no it was not in their best interest that everyone copy it. think about it.

actually now you are just getting silly. the format caught on because it was far superior to tape, not because everyone was copying it.



EnglishT said:


> The other point I would bring up is that in certain industries (computing, electronics in general) - this sort of behaviour is commonplace and its accepted - there are few companies that have played fair totally, mainly because they cannot compete and stay in existance if they do.


so you rationalize and justify the very behavior you decry and condemn?

like i said, what you are expressing are situational ethics... not morals. :nono:



EnglishT said:


> The bike industry isnt like this - it could easily be (and certain companies are) but for the most part, its a relatively fair game.


another kumbaya'er. no, the bike industry is NOT a relatively fair game any more than computers, electronics, automotive, etc.



EnglishT said:


> If you dont think that the Stratos affairs were a good reason not to buy Specialized - go ahead, I wont think any less of you - but I wont touch them myself.


if you do not take this approach to all other products and services you purchase then it could well be argued that you are a hypocrite. at the very least it is blatant situational ethics.

but i don't think any less of you for it.


----------



## ar1981 (Oct 11, 2006)

monogod said:


> if you're not using an apple, are you using a genuine ibm computer? if not you are using a clone utilizing architecture ripped off from them.
> 
> using a microsoft os? ripped off again.
> 
> ...


Do you have selective hearing?

You seem to fully understand the issues surrounding Microsoft copying Apples GUI... (which came from Xerox FYI)

You used the word "Ripped off" so you seem to appreciate the difference between right and wrong.

You show us how selective your hearing is, as soon as someone mentions the word "Specialized" ... Your brain seems to turn to mush.

Funny :/

I think Monogod is Mike Sinyard.

Sure fits the profile; argumentative, anal retentive, overly analytical.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*I'm not sure why this thread keeps going.*

It seems to fill some need but I doubt that is based in issues concerning Specialized.Clearly it is not based upon issues or solutions but engagement. It seems more about tit for tat. This thread lost it's meaning long ago and has turned into two mongrels fighting over a sock. It's sorta like watching a train wreck on U-Tube. Or it is actually an expression of the art of conversation which I recently heard described as having no point but its own continuation but lacks it's amiable charm?

"this is the song that never ends;
it just goes on and on and my friends;
some people started singing it not knowing what it was
and they'll continue singing it forever just because
this is the song that never ends;
it just goes on and on..........."

Shari Lewis & Lambchop


----------



## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Can we all agree that this broad is hot? :ihih:


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

ar1981 said:


> Do you have selective hearing?
> 
> You seem to fully understand the issues surrounding Microsoft copying Apples GUI... (which came from Xerox FYI)
> 
> ...


wow, i didnt think it was too hard to follow but apparently it was. or maybe you didnt understand it because there were no pictures in crayon to accompany the text. 

i'll break it down into easier to assimilate pieces...

1.) i wasnt commenting on whether or not what specialized did was right or wrong with that post.

2.) the point was demonstrating the situational ethics and hypocrisy in charging specialized with such heinous breeches in ethics and morals while clamoring to use products by other manufacturers guilty of actually intellectual property theft and gleefully ignoring their actions.

3.) jobs ripped off the windows gui from xerox, who got it ripped off by gates. that is theft of intellectual property. the fact that specialized copied various angles on a bike frame is not theft of intellectual property nor is it unethical, illegal, or "ripping off" tom. if it is, then one is obligate to be upset with every other manufacturer who does not utilize completely unique and proprietary geometry.

4.) i used "ripped off" in its proper context to demonstrate the contrast between actual intellectual theft and specialized duplicating angles/geometry.

fwiw, i don't have a hard-on for specialized. just pointing out the specious excrement being cavilerly spewed by the ignorant and uninformed who, lacking facts, simply regurgitate rumor/speculation/innuendo and jump on the bandwagon of baseless blind hatred.

nothing personal against you, though.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Berkeley Mike said:


> It seems to fill some need but I doubt that is based in issues concerning Specialized.Clearly it is not based upon issues or solutions but engagement.


says the dr. phil wannabe who by posting this tripe engages simply to passively aggressively engage with a post that has nothing to do with specialized, issues or solutions; and in fact has nothing to do with the thread topic at all.* not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that.

the irony and hypocrisy that your off topic post contains bit</>ching about off topic posts and decries others for doing exactly what the author is engaging in (i.e. fulfilling a need to engage and be relevant) is not lost on any but the most obtuse. :thumbsup:

*hint: most of the more recent posts have directly addressed issues. 




Berkeley Mike said:


> Or it is actually an expression of the art of conversation which I recently heard described as having no point but its own continuation but lacks it's amiable charm?


um.... you mean like your post??? :lol:


----------



## Screamer (May 1, 2008)

Scott O said:


> Can we all agree that this broad is hot? :ihih:


*Where can I buy one of these Specialized?* :thumbsup: :devil:
*And do they come in different colors?*


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

ar1981 said:


> Do you have selective hearing?


He most definitely has selective hearing&#8230;
 


monogod said:


> ok, now you FINALLY posted a valid reason to hate specialized. if you did indeed buy a bike and had a problem with it, and then the dealer's response was to swear at you, then that is certainly reason to be upset and i certainly wouldn't try to persuade you other wise.
> 
> what did you do beyond that? did you go to another shop? any shop can handle the warranty service. did you contact the outside rep? or did you just send a couple of letters and emails and let it go at that?
> 
> ...


You misread my post, I said the dealer didn't want to know about it (but was still pleasant) and passed it too Specialized as there were so many problems with the bike in the first few weeks, it was Specialized's customer service department in the UK which I phoned to try and get it sorted out a few times who were swearing and being generally awful to deal with. I can accept some of the problems were nothing to do with Specialized like both shifters, RD, both brakes, both hubs and both the fork and shock rebounds which didn't work but two pivots, the seat post, the steerer bolt, the tires (which suffer from a ridiculous amount of punctures) and my general total dissatisfaction were for Specialized to deal with.

I was very nice with the letters and the local bike shops round here but if Spesh workers start swearing they'll get it back. I used one of those consumer thingies to deal with GT a few years back and I'd rather not have to do it again so I just got rid of the bike as fast as possible and I know the above problems sound like a lot so I'll just point out that I've has no problems at all with my Giant Trance. :thumbsup:


----------



## eat_dirt (May 26, 2008)

EnglishT said:


> It also helps if they are you own - stealing them by sueing whoever owns them doesnt really count as innovation in my eyes.
> 
> Out of curiousity - you know that neither of these two "innovations" were initiated in the bike world by the companies now famous for them, dont you?
> 
> ...


the stratos issue was something up for debate. with that being said, it'd be helpful if the brain really worked that well and there was enough support by major shock manufacturers to make it viable. i think it's a costly gimmick by specialized, and the shady business with stratos is why some people call them SOCIALized.

the genesis thing is crap. patenting bike geometry is ridiculous. saying no one else can use this angle/length tubing is just absurd in my book.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*On and on my friend*

this thing will go to 10,000. I wish I had bought at 38. 
come on you guys. Bump this up!


----------



## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Scott O said:


> Can we all agree that this broad is hot? :ihih:


That chick totally stole body design from Eve for her own benefit.


----------



## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

Scott O said:


> Can we all agree that this broad is hot? :ihih:


Uh, no.


----------



## S.T.I.N.C. (Aug 1, 2008)

*Why?*

I'm not sure why any of this even matters. People have expressed their opinions and thoughts about why they "hate" Specialized, and that's all it is; opinions and thoughts. Who cares? If the people who have expressed their hatred towards Specialized have based their feelings on false or misleading information, unsupported conclusions or pure speculation about the company, then so be it. We are all entitled to our own opinions and feelings, regardless of what other people think of them.

You guys are arguing about each other's feelings towards a bike company. At the end of the day, ask yourself if it really matters? Is it worth the time and engery?


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

EGF168 said:


> You misread my post, I said the dealer didn't want to know about it (but was still pleasant) and passed it too Specialized as there were so many problems with the bike in the first few weeks, it was Specialized's customer service department in the UK which I phoned to try and get it sorted out a few times who were swearing and being generally awful to deal with. I can accept some of the problems were nothing to do with Specialized like both shifters, RD, both brakes, both hubs and both the fork and shock rebounds which didn't work but two pivots, the seat post, the steerer bolt, the tires (which suffer from a ridiculous amount of punctures) and my general total dissatisfaction were for Specialized to deal with.
> 
> I was very nice with the letters and the local bike shops round here but if Spesh workers start swearing they'll get it back. I used one of those consumer thingies to deal with GT a few years back and I'd rather not have to do it again so I just got rid of the bike as fast as possible and I know the above problems sound like a lot so I'll just point out that I've has no problems at all with my Giant Trance. :thumbsup:


those are a lot of problems, and i would probably feel the same way you did about that situation after buying a bike with that many issues. and yes, it certainly seems that specialized u.k. very much differs from specialized u.s. in that if that were the case our outside rep would have immediately replaceed the entire bike and probably would have thrown in some gear as a token of their apology for letting a lemon slip through.

and yes, it appears that i did misunderstand what you were saying about specialized u.k. being the ones that were swearing at you. again, i would be upset about that too.

your experience sounds like the epitome of the customer nightmare! that certainly isn't how it works across the pond here. :nono:

if it were me, i would've documented it and be sending a couple of letters a week to mike's office in california until i got a response.


----------



## racedoug33 (Aug 16, 2006)

I own a Specialized Enduro expert. It was my first "real" mountain bike and I love it!! I have not had any problems with it in the 5+ years of riding it. 

I have talked to some of my local shops that do not carry Specialized why they don't and they all gave me the same answer....Specialized requires dealers to carry a certain % of Specialized bikes in there stock. So if the shop also carries other bike brands in order to meet Specialized's terms to be a dealer they can not have many other brands of bikes in stock which of course would hurt the sales of the other bike brands.

Do I like that practice or think its fair??? No, but that is how they work, there is nothing I can do about it if I like the product that Specialized makes. Do I think it hurts our sport? No, if you like their bikes buy one, if not get something else. We are all in the sport for the love of biking, no matter what kind of bike you ride. I am sure if we really knew the bizz practices of other companies we would not be so happy with them either.

I do feel for those of you who have had trouble with their Specialized bikes, service etc... I am sure if I would have had the problems you all had I would not be happy with the company either and would also move on to another bike company. Who knows my next bike might not be a Specialized only time will tell. I have great respect for all bike companies, I am sure it is a tough bizz to be in.

I say just ride and leave the bike bizz to the bike bizz people.

Ride on!!!!


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

racedoug33 said:


> I own a Specialized Enduro expert. It was my first "real" mountain bike and I love it!! I have not had any problems with it in the 5+ years of riding it.
> 
> I have talked to some of my local shops that do not carry Specialized why they don't and they all gave me the same answer....Specialized requires dealers to carry a certain % of Specialized bikes in there stock. So if the shop also carries other bike brands in order to meet Specialized's terms to be a dealer they can not have many other brands of bikes in stock which of course would hurt the sales of the other bike brands.
> 
> ...


Why do you gotta be, like, so, like upbeat and stuff? All the hate and slamming in this thread was just getting fun and then you come along and are level-headed and nice. Dood, get with the program! :thumbsup:


----------



## 11 Bravo (Mar 12, 2004)

monogod said:


> was the geometry of ritchey's bike duplicated? yes.
> 
> was it wrong/unethical/illegal? no.


Of course I will agree with you that frame angles are copied all the time. We just see this one a little differently. At the time that this took place Tom was the only one making a frame with those angles and geometry. Specialized didn't even make an attempt to tweek anything and make it their own design. They just copied it and sold it under their own name. I am no lawyer, but you are probably correct that it was not illegal. To say they stole it is probably too harsh. However, I will disagree with you on the points of it being wrong and unethical. I think it was.

I will also disagree with you about the lawsuit over the name. Naming a bike "Stumptown" (which is a common nick name for Portland) is in no way an infringement on the name "Stumpjumper". That is just over the top in my opinion.

I don't have any beef with you Monogod, I was just curious to hear your take on the example. I agree with you about 90% of the time. Lets just agree that we disagree on this one. Nothing wrong with that, you like Specialized and I don't.

I'll ride with you anytime. Bring your Specialized and I will bring my Ventana. I guarantee this subject will not come up.

On that note, I am done with the subject. I really don't know why I posted to this last night anyway. This thread needs to slip off the bottom of the page.


----------



## TLL (Apr 28, 2008)

my thoughts . . . .


----------



## M_S (Nov 18, 2007)

Yeah, sick thread doods. Keep up the good work. Shred gnar gnar grom killer.


----------



## xenon (Apr 16, 2007)

fastale said:


> The Housing Gets Dirty? :skep: Who cares? It's full length housing, the cables stay clean. I don't mean to jump on you PCinSc, but I really hope thats not why people have a problem with the housing running beneath the BB.


Full length housing under the DT is even worse. The plastic often gets damaged by small rocks flying from under the front wheel, causing problems with switching gears.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

11 Bravo said:


> I will also disagree with you about the lawsuit over the name. Naming a bike "Stumptown" (which is a common nick name for Portland) is in no way an infringement on the name "Stumpjumper". That is just over the top in my opinion.


while i respect your opinion, i will just add that most any company will protect a successful registered trademark and/or brand name by seeking to prevent others from naming their products too similarly. that's just standard practice for most any company.



11 Bravo said:


> I don't have any beef with you Monogod, I was just curious to hear your take on the example. I agree with you about 90% of the time. Lets just agree that we disagree on this one. Nothing wrong with that, you like Specialized and I don't.
> 
> I'll ride with you anytime. Bring your Specialized and I will bring my Ventana. I guarantee this subject will not come up.


something you may find amusing if we did ever ride is that i don't even ride a specialized. perhaps people assume as much because our shop is a spec dealer and because i have been involved in a few specialized threads ferreting out the disinformation/rumor/innuendo/lies by supplanting them with accurate facts.

but out of the 20 bikes in the stable only one is a specialized (07 stumpjumper expert). its not because i don't like spec bikes, i do. they make awesome bikes but i ride 29er's and already had a few i like when their 29ers came out. oddly enough, despite having several high end 29er's the one i ride most often is my karate monkey fixie. but i digress. the stumpy was added because i wanted a full sussy bike in the stable and it was cheap (one of our test bikes for 07 with super low hours) thus being less out of pocket than a niner rip9 or other 29er fs frame alone (even with at wholesale), and because it was purple. that being said, it is an awesome bike. (for having baby wheels)

2 of the 5 bikes i've gotten for my gf are specialized though, and she absolutely loves them and they are her main rides. (ruby expert and safire fsr s-works) both are full carbon wsd bikes and are stoopid light. her fs mtb weighs 23 lbs!

all that to say yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree. no probs there. and no personal beef here either.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

xenon said:


> Full length housing under the DT is even worse. The plastic often gets damaged by small rocks flying from under the front wheel, causing problems with switching gears.


wtf?!?!?!? :skep:

nothing personal bro, but there is simply no truth in that. you are aware that cable housing is METAL covered in plastic... right?


----------



## Scott O (Aug 5, 2004)

Originally Posted by Scott O
Can we all agree that this broad is hot?



Vespasianus said:


> Uh, no.


Then I guess this is more your speed....


----------



## chequamagon (Oct 4, 2006)

M_S said:


> Yeah, sick thread doods. Keep up the good work. Shred gnar gnar grom killer.


I copyrighted and patented the spelling of said noun "dude" (used in hereafter as gender nuetral) as "dood", and you are hereby ordered to cease and desist or you will be faced with an infringement lawsuit.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I can't believe people still blame stratos on specialized. Stratos killed themselves and were well on their way long before specialized came around. Stratos intentionally tried to get around the fox/specialized patent by using the same exact mechanism, but said it came from an automotive design. It doesn't even matter though, because stratos sent out forks with improperly speced seals, flawed crowns, and their designs were old, heavy, and flexy compared to the competition. There were a lot of shady things that started to happen at stratos, and every time someone says "look what they did to stratos" I have to just shake my head. If you really dig through the dirt of stratos, you'll see that they killed themselves, no help from specialized was really needed.


----------



## JMUSuperman (Jun 14, 2008)

When I lived in Colorado, Specialized went after the local bike shop: The Roubaix Bicycle Company for trademark infringement. The place kept its name, but it was still good for a laugh.

Currently the US Olympic Committee has sued companies in Washington (the Olympic Winery, which is located in the Olympic Mountains, outside of Olympia, Washington) for a similar thing; saying they need to change their names. Doesn't make me want to watch any less women's beach volleyball, but still. Apparently the act passed in 1998 is retroactive so anyone using the name "Olympic" in their name is subject to it. Let's see the big S top that!


----------



## Shocknerd (Aug 3, 2004)

Stratos licensed a bicycle version of a patented inertia valve shock system that was developed in 1998. The bicycle version was disclosed to Answer and RockShox in 1998 in an attempt to license them. Stratos negotiated a license in 2003.


----------



## danyiluska (Sep 20, 2006)

Another reason for "hate":

In our little provincial country (isr) with it's poor scene the big S is became a symbol.
About 10 years ago they were the first to conquer the bike market here. 
Now everyone, who enters the scene, buys Spec without thinking for a minute.
After the rider begins to understand his own style, and what he wants,
he will sell his XC FS, and buy smt else, but the big S already got the $ from him. 
That's bad, there are soo many nice companies which make nice bikes...

Second thing:
The "elite" of our pitiable scene are the high-tech workers.
They come to ride on the weekends on their company cars. 
They f*ckin wealthy, but ride beaten up '95 enduros, hoppers and stumpers.
They also great deal of a**holes.
So for me Specialized and these guys became one thing,
that makes me want to throw up.


----------



## HardRockCop (Jul 16, 2008)

Just tossing my two cents in here:

The only things I dislike about Spec are the the kooky paint schemes (wish they would offer optional simple paint schemes, ie silver, white, black. Keep them simple and not looking like a horrible finger-painting experiment gone bad). Secondly, I hate the in-house parts supply cabinet. If you buy a $3k+ Enduro, you're stuck with the Spec rear shock? No optional Fox? Oh, and I wouldn't loose any sleep if they stopped putting those Suntour shox on their bikes. 

Don't get me wrong, I like my bike, but I hold a special place in my heart for Santa Cruz. Nice bikes, simple design, QUALITY components.


----------



## jmilliron (Aug 24, 2007)

I'm not a big fan of Specialized mountain bikes, but their clothing, shoes, helmets and road frames are all fantastic.


----------



## xenon (Apr 16, 2007)

monogod said:


> wtf?!?!?!? :skep:
> 
> nothing personal bro, but there is simply no truth in that. you are aware that cable housing is METAL covered in plastic... right?


Nothing personal, son, I just experienced this kind of problem - not with Specialized, though, but with a very similar bike. The full length housing under DT was crushed in several places after a few rides - apparently, by flying rocks - so I had to remove it, leaving the cables exposed.


----------



## TakoKichi (Jul 6, 2008)

We still haten?
Get over it and move on.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

xenon said:


> Nothing personal, son, I just experienced this kind of problem - not with Specialized, though, but with a very similar bike. The full length housing under DT was crushed in several places after a few rides - apparently, by flying rocks - so I had to remove it, leaving the cables exposed.


yeah? so how'd that work out with no cable stops??? :skep:

i'm not calling you a liar because i'm not saying your housing didn't get crushed, it very well may have. but that it was crushed by small rocks kicked up by the front wheel? i'd have to say highly unlikely.

seen lots of bikes with crushed or kinked full length dt housing over the years, most commonly from improper transport. followed by attempting to mount ledges/obstacles, or from wrecks.

maybe your housing was crushed from small flying rocks, but if so that is irrefutably the exception to the rule and far outside the norm. it takes a lot to crush/kink/bend cable housing. much more than is doled out by rocks kicked up by the front wheel.

perhaps that's what i should have said the first time, sorry if i offended you.


----------



## GoodStash (Jan 27, 2008)

monogod said:


> wtf?!?!?!? :skep:
> 
> nothing personal bro, but there is simply no truth in that. you are aware that cable housing is METAL covered in plastic... right?


Actually, dude, you're wrong. I posted this a couple pages back, but maybe you missed it. I can tell you first hand that a rocks will shatter that housing...



> I don't really hate any bike or any biker, but a guy I ride with has a Stumpy Hard tail and the housing below the bottom bracket is plastic. (I'm not sure if that's the case for all models) Anyways, we were in the middle of a pretty long ride and during a short downhill section a rock flipped up and shattered the housing leaving him with a bike that was almost useless. When I saw that I thought it was a pretty poor design, but they know what they're doing, I'm sure..


----------



## jh251 (Jul 9, 2008)

TakoKichi said:


> We still haten?
> Get over it and move on.


Hate, more hate. It's feels great to hate!!! I hate because I'm so bored, and wanted post in a hate thread that's full of hate. I have nothing better to do than to hate. What a great thread.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

GoodStash said:


> Actually, dude, you're wrong. I posted this a couple pages back, but maybe you missed it. I can tell you first hand that a rocks will shatter that housing...


yes, i saw that a couple pages back. however, you are confusing "cable guide" with "cable housing".

the guide that is mounted underneath the bottom bracket is plastic, and although can be shattered/cracked by rocks it is somewhat rare. this is because the bottom bracket cable guides are fairly pliable. however, they can become hard and brittle (and thus susceptible to cracking/shattering) over the years, especially if the bike is stored outside rather than inside.

but cable HOUSING, on the other hand, has a thick internal wound metal core. rocks kicked up by the front wheel simply will not "shatter" it. period.

so actually dude.....


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

jh251 said:


> Hate, more hate. It's feels great to hate!!! I hate because I'm so bored, and wanted post in a hate thread that's full of hate. I have nothing better to do than to hate. What a great thread.


I don't see hate. I see people arguing. ...about a bike company, parts of which they don't like. Biiiig difference between that and hate.


----------



## brenna (Jul 1, 2008)

chequamagon said:


> wrong and wrong. Trek is not the US leader. And Giant makes the most bikes worldwide, but is not the worldwide leader in brand name.


i love it when people contradict themselves.the answer is simple, a specilized always looks better because the bike doesnt get used,the owner sits at the trail having these sort of pathetic arguments instead of riding thier trusty,reliable, well made,overpriced,under specd,special-ed.A bike will always perform well when it has had little to no use.for people that actully use their bikes you get more value for money elseware.:rant:  :thumbsup:


----------



## rearviewmirror (Jun 14, 2006)

Specialized has one good use.....


----------



## brenna (Jul 1, 2008)

TLL said:


> my thoughts . . . .


pretty much


----------



## KonaMan (Jan 19, 2004)

73h 8r!110 said:


> Lately, i've heard a lot of people express their hate for specialized. Can someone please explain, i dont get it? Is specialized regarded as trendy; are they the "Wal-mart" of the biking industry. Someone throw me bone.
> 
> -brillo


Because they are a big fish that threw a temper tantrum and caused a small bike company in Portland to close their doors. Why you ask? Because the name Stumptown (which is an official nick name for the city of Portland, OR) sounded too similar to Stump Jumper.

Stumptown is synonymous with Portland, OR. Stumptown was the name of a Cyclocross bike made by a local, no longer in business thanks to Specialized, company. If you know anything about cyclocross, Portland is the largest cross circuit in the US. Any race weekend for the Cross Crusade you will find about 600-800 riders there. SS CAT will see about 80-100 riders alone.

I'd rather push my Stumptown than ride a Stump Jumper!


----------



## GoodStash (Jan 27, 2008)

monogod said:


> yes, i saw that a couple pages back. however, you are confusing "cable guide" with "cable housing".
> 
> the guide that is mounted underneath the bottom bracket is plastic, and although can be shattered/cracked by rocks it is somewhat rare. this is because the bottom bracket cable guides are fairly pliable. however, they can become hard and brittle (and thus susceptible to cracking/shattering) over the years, especially if the bike is stored outside rather than inside.
> 
> ...


Well, I won't argue with you there. I'm sure you know more about the set-up of a Specialized bike than I do.

However, regardless of the specifics of the cable housing/guide, the bottom line is it sucked ass when it shattered. Ruined the ride, needed to be replaced, blah blah blah. Again, I don't hate any bike. I test rode an Enduro and had a freaking blast!! But the plastic cable guide on the bottom did turn me off a little. Do you know if it's the same for every model?


----------



## fastale (Jul 2, 2007)

GoodStash said:


> I don't really hate any bike or any biker, but a guy I ride with has a Stumpy Hard tail and the housing below the bottom bracket is plastic. (I'm not sure if that's the case for all models) Anyways, we were in the middle of a pretty long ride and during a short downhill section a rock flipped up and shattered the housing leaving him with a bike that was almost useless. When I saw that I thought it was a pretty poor design, but they know what they're doing, I'm sure...


I'm pretty sure that you are confused when you are refering to "housing." I think that you are talking about the cable guide. Unless your buddy swapped his housing for some seriously cheap plastic (do they even make that?) housing.
_
edit: Sorry, just noticed monogod already covered all of this in an earlier post_


----------



## RSW42 (Aug 22, 2006)

rearviewmirror said:


> Specialized has one good use.....


I agree...

But after them standing by and letting one of their authorized dealers hang me out to dry in 99, I will not let anything, not even a tube, with the _SPECIALIZED _logo *pollute* any one of my 4 bikes...

.


----------



## GoodStash (Jan 27, 2008)

fastale said:


> I'm pretty sure that you are confused when you are refering to "housing." I think that you are talking about the cable guide. Unless your buddy swapped his housing for some seriously cheap plastic (do they even make that?) housing.
> _
> edit: Sorry, just noticed monogod already covered all of this in an earlier post_


Yes, MonoGod did correct me, (I responded to his correction right above your last post.) but my position stands; It sucked when it happened.

P.S. Your avatar kicks ass!!


----------



## JEFMAL (Aug 13, 2008)

I can't believe people are b!tchen about paint schemes and such trivial cons. When I went to this site to look up the reviews of the bike i was lookin at what does everybody say? "Ride them all and then make up your mind." So, are these the same guys posting here? I ended up with an 08 rockhopper and I ride it as it was intended to be ridden. I do 60-80 mi/wk XC and some light jumps. Has it been a great bike so far, yes. Get off your computer and ride more and quit yer b!tchen. I know, I know I'm a newbee but hey it's a free market and "idiots" like me still buy their product. GO BICYCLE COMMIES!!!


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Originally posted by *73h 8r!110 *
why hate specialized?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lately, i've heard a lot of people express their hate for specialized. Can someone please explain, i dont get it? Is specialized regarded as trendy; are they the "Wal-mart" of the biking industry. Someone throw me bone.

-brillo

*Well without reading any responses to your original question here is my take on it:* I mean really who has time to read through 11 pages of ranting on why or what's better.
Each brand has its followers and its haters. It's just that some brands are hated or liked more than others. Specialized is no exception they just happen to fall into the category of a mass produced and mass marketed bike company. I think this is there main down flaw in why some hate them. I don't think they are hated because of making such a bad product compared to most other mass produced over marketed companies. In fact there are a few other mass produced and over marketed companies that get the same rap. And this is no new phenomium it has been going on for a number of years.


----------



## madcatmini (Aug 3, 2008)

*Thats not why I sist at the trail head...*



brenna said:


> i love it when people contradict themselves.the answer is simple, a specilized always looks better because the bike doesnt get used,the owner sits at the trail having these sort of pathetic arguments instead of riding thier trusty,reliable, well made,overpriced,under specd,special-ed.A bike will always perform well when it has had little to no use.for people that actully use their bikes you get more value for money elseware.:rant:  :thumbsup:


I sit at the trailhead not for the above reasons, but becaused I destroyed a wheel and a front brake within the 1st 3 weeks!!!!!!!!! @#$%^&^%$%^&*(*&^%$%^&*&^%$


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Bump! By popular demand there can never be too many -* I hate* - or- *I love* Specialized threads going at the same time.


----------



## Anno domino (Jun 15, 2008)

Square Bladder said:


> ...Because they manufacture their frames overseas, which pisses off the purists who think there's something inherently special and wonderful about U.S. factories.
> 
> :thumbsup:


And how many US factories still churn out bike frames? Not many. I would guess that you have lost more than half of your manufacturing to mainland China.

A lot of Specialized frames (and a lot of other peoples) come out of Taiwan's mighty GIANT factory. This probably explains why the Pitch looks like the Reign. Giant are the largest manufacturing company in the world. In these days where virtually everything is made in mainland China, the Made in Taiwan sticker is now coveted and prestigous.


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Bump! By popular demand there can never be too many -* I hate* - or- *I love* Specialized threads going at the same time.


Bumping for bumpings sake sucks.
If no one's posting in a dumb thread, then it's not back by popular demand.

Otherwise, I'm going to go back and start bumping all of AnythonyS's and MTBBills threads, so we can get a front page with something nice to look at for a change, instead of twenty threads of idiots arguing with other idiots.

----
This thread is simple. Buying quality bikes from quality people has value for some people, and is of no value to others. Some other people don't know or care to know the depth of any of it. Of all these people, some have the means and desire to put their money where their ideals are. Some don't. There is nothing new about any of this.
---

Pointless thread.


----------



## Anno domino (Jun 15, 2008)

misery guts.

i don't hate any bike brands. They are all businesses at the end of the day. There are brands more inspirational than others but all of them exist to make cash. There is no art for art's sake in our bitsa-this bitsa that bike industry. It's a level playing field as far as I am concerned, though I do like to see some manufacture remain in the West, and even in Taiwan or Malaysia. China's domination concerns me though I am spoilt with its prices. Workers happy to live in dorms, many to a room. That's no life.


----------



## Twister (Feb 28, 2006)

I love my hardtail stump and my son loves his hotrock. The quality of Specialized frames makes their lower end bikes decent buys.

That said, I think Spesh has made some serious mistakes.

As someone else mentioned, some of the paint schemes are just plain butt ugly. Ugly enough to put anyone off of buying certain models, regardless of quality, spec, or value. Note to Spesh: always offer all models in a conservative, dark, neutral paint scheme (black, grey, silver, skip the flashy, childish highlights). All the light colors of the 2009's are better, but some folks won't buy a cream colored mountain bike.

Second, the use of proprietary parts really pisses off lots of cyclists who like to be able to customize their bikes and don't like to be forced into molds. Use in house parts if you must, but make sure the bikes fit aftermarket bits or lose the hard core builder type sales.

At the mid to high end, it is easy to find superb bikes with much nicer parts at equal or better prices. 

For example, I can't understand why anyone would buy a carbon Stumpy when they could buy a Mojo or 575 or even a Tracer with nicer bits for substantially less coin.


----------



## Damitletsride! (Feb 4, 2004)

The name "specialized" sounds really cocky. Not sure if anyone has said that yet!


----------



## Roswell52 (Mar 25, 2008)

73h 8r!110 said:


> Lately, i've heard a lot of people express their hate for specialized. Can someone please explain, i dont get it? Is specialized regarded as trendy; are they the "Wal-mart" of the biking industry. Someone throw me bone.
> 
> -brillo


I hate this thread.


----------



## tech_dog (Aug 25, 2008)

I like Specialized, even if it's not cool to like Specialized. They innovate, make a wide range or products, and stand by their customers year after year. 

I'd guess that few, if any, companies can match the R&D budget Specialized puts into advancing MTB technology. They do a lot for our sport, and keep the competition on its toes. 

We all know that Specialize prices aren't low, but how could they be? Specialized delivers premium products and premium service after the sale, and that requires premium pricing. I've never had Specialized balk on picking up the tab for a Specialized problem.

If Specialized isn't cool.. then so be it. I'll just put on a pink Hanna Montana jersey, fill my camelback up with Starbucks cafe mocha non-fat no whip, and whistle "American Pie" as I ride.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

HotBlack said:


> Bumping for bumpings sake sucks.
> If no one's posting in a dumb thread, then it's not back by popular demand.
> 
> Otherwise, I'm going to go back and start bumping all of AnythonyS's and MTBBills threads, so we can get a front page with something nice to look at for a change, instead of twenty threads of idiots arguing with other idiots.
> ...


Ahhh hello check out the time frame in which I bumped the thread. It was bumped on the same day that it was being aggressively posted on. With an opinion I might add. You're the one who bumped it 2 weeks later. I personally thought it was funny that there were two threads going at the same time. An "I hate" and an "I love Specialized". Who gives a rat's ass why a particular brand is hated or liked it's all a matter of personal opinion. Ride what you own and enjoy it who cares what others think.


----------



## ver-T (Mar 29, 2008)

I don't hate Specialized...just the pretentious douchebags that ride them thinking everyone else should too.


----------



## tech_dog (Aug 25, 2008)

ver-T said:


> I don't hate Specialized...just the pretentious douchebags that ride them thinking everyone else should too.


Sounds like a personal problem...


----------



## ver-T (Mar 29, 2008)

tech_dog said:


> Sounds like a personal problem...


you must be one of those people.


----------



## Kona0197 (Oct 19, 2004)

Boycott Specialized. Problem solved.


----------



## austin_bike (Apr 2, 2005)

This thread reminds me of the calvin pissing on ford logo on chevys or vice-versa.

Ride what fits you and you can afford. It's OK to hate a bike because you have had problems (I won't ever ride a fisher sugar 3+ ever again) but to completely dismiss a vendor for no good reason is insane.

What specialized does is allow a large number of people to enjoy the sport on bikes that are better than the wal-mart special and not as expensive as a turner or titus.

You can't fault a company for opening up the sport to a lot of people who wouldn't normally be able to afford it.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Kona0197 said:


> Boycott Specialized. Problem solved.


I've been doing that for 6 months, don't have so much as a bottle holder from them now, I don't shop at their dealers and never miss an opportunity to badmouth them.:thumbsup:


----------



## ChuckO (Aug 12, 2007)

EGF168 said:


> I've been doing that for 6 months, don't have so much as a bottle holder from them now, I don't shop at their dealers and never miss an opportunity to badmouth them.:thumbsup:


Specialized is so burned.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

ChuckO said:


> Specialized is so burned.


Well at least I can say I've persuaded a few people to buy other bikes, better bikes of course, I wouldn't want to steer anyone in the wrong direction. So I'm sure specialized will at least be a little singed if not burned&#8230;:madmax:


----------



## ChuckO (Aug 12, 2007)

EGF168 said:


> Well at least I can say I've persuaded a few people to buy other bikes, better bikes of course, I wouldn't want to steer anyone in the wrong direction. So I'm sure specialized will at least be a little singed if not burned&#8230;:madmax:


You are of course entitled to your opinion. I just hope specialized doesn't go out of business.
Where would I get parts for my Stumpy?


----------



## Anno domino (Jun 15, 2008)

This thread is retarded.

Whether it's made in Canada, or designed in the USA by Specialized and made in Taiwan by the Giant factory, they are all businesses that exist to make money.

Let's take another example, perhaps DC shoes has more kudos than Nike amongst the skatey types, but again, DC shoes is no less a business than Nike. A lot of the big fry began as small fry.

I just bought a Specialized. At the end of the day, they all hang the same bits on them, regardless of the origins of the frame.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

austin_bike said:


> This thread reminds me of the calvin pissing on ford logo on chevys or vice-versa.
> 
> Ride what fits you and you can afford. It's OK to hate a bike because you have had problems (I won't ever ride a fisher sugar 3+ ever again) but to completely dismiss a vendor for no good reason is insane.
> 
> ...


This thread reminds me of the calvin pissing on ford logo on chevys or vice-versa.
Yep!
:madmax:


----------



## Jim Z in VT (Sep 9, 2007)

tech_dog said:


> I like Specialized, even if it's not cool to like Specialized.


I like Specialized _ because_ it's not cool to like Specialized. Does that make me cool, or uncool? 

Who gives a damn what you ride. As long as you ride. So shut off your computers and ride.

JZ

(Yeah, I ride one....got a ridiculous deal on a new FSRxc pro frame and built the rest up from scratch)


----------



## Trail Marauder (Aug 30, 2008)

Man......i did not know specialized bikes had such a love/hate amoung the mtb community.

I personally have never bought one.......test rode....yes.....but did not like.


I think most spesh bikes do look great though, 

I don't hate any mtb manufacturer.............

I just hate all Road Bikes!!!!!!!!!!!

Whoa, i don't know what came over me! did i just say that???? 

This thread is wack yall......i am outta here before more hate from this thread infests my body........:madmax: arg i am just so filled with hatred right now!


----------



## scoutcat (Mar 30, 2008)

i hate specialized logos all over crap but i sure like their TOTL mtb shoes and shoe inserts.


----------



## Bends But Doesn't Break (Jun 23, 2008)

Did anybody else who was at Interbike see the placards hanging in the entryways at Specialized's booth, stating something along the lines of "Dealers only?"

Nobody else had any signage of this type.

Interbike is certainly about transacting commerce in the cycling industry - and such activity takes place not only between a distributor and a dealer.

Kind of an arrogant run against the grain of the industry and the show, if you ask me; if all Interbike was about concerned only Specialized's and their dealers, why bother with all the technical seminars, industry lectures, post-show races, advocacy venues, and Demo Days as a whole?

Specialized, get over yourself.


----------



## ARider (Feb 28, 2005)

*jealous are we?*



Bends But Doesn't Break said:


> Did anybody else who was at Interbike see the placards hanging in the entryways at Specialized's booth, stating something along the lines of "Dealers only?"
> 
> Nobody else had any signage of this type.
> 
> ...


Sorry they wouldn't let you into to the cool booth with all of the beautiful people.

Do you need some prozac?


----------



## Bends But Doesn't Break (Jun 23, 2008)

ARider said:


> Sorry they wouldn't let you into to the cool booth with all of the beautiful people.
> 
> Do you need some prozac?


Were you at the show?

The booth was, in fact, quite boring. People and products.

There were plenty of other venues with much sexier products and people.

If Specialized is the extent of the scope of your vanities, well, then, you and Specialized deserve each other.

Piss off - you have no idea.


----------



## Qatarbhoy (Jun 13, 2008)

"I'll just put on a pink Hanna Montana jersey, fill my camelback up with Starbucks cafe mocha non-fat no whip, and whistle "American Pie" as I ride."

Whoa - are those things considered uncool?  

"DC shoes has more kudos than Nike amongst the skatey types"

DC suck. :nono: Fallen or Vans, baby!  

Here endeth the lesson.


----------



## Daddychick75 (Oct 23, 2008)

I returned my M5 sworks epic 05 frame, (after having the bike for 2 YEARS), because of a paint defect, and within a week i've received a sworks epic carbon replacement frame, customer service couldn't of been better, i won't be spending my hard earned cash with anyone else in future. i used to race kleins in the early to mid 90's and diamond back in the mid to late 80's so have done a bit. Personally i think its down to individual experience with brands and quality of service, there are brands that i would never buy again, but i also know people that won't buy anything else i.e. Klein, Trek.


----------



## Dirt Bringer (May 10, 2006)

Anno domino said:


> misery guts.
> 
> i don't hate any bike brands. They are all businesses at the end of the day. There are brands more inspirational than others but all of them exist to make cash. There is no art for art's sake in our bitsa-this bitsa that bike industry. It's a level playing field as far as I am concerned, though I do like to see some manufacture remain in the West, and even in Taiwan or Malaysia. China's domination concerns me though I am spoilt with its prices. Workers happy to live in dorms, many to a room. That's no life.


I agree on the company thing. I dont hate any brands. Only misconceptions. Dosent mean Ill buy some brands but why would I hate them? As to where they are manufactured? I dont really care.


----------



## oldskoolm4 (Jan 13, 2008)

danyiluska said:


> Another reason for "hate":
> 
> In our little provincial country (isr) with it's poor scene the big S is became a symbol.
> About 10 years ago they were the first to conquer the bike market here.
> ...


This is one of the stupidest things I think I have read in awhile. Maybe they like the bike? Who says in order to be a mountain biker you have to roll a non "big three" bike? I have had many Specialized frames, and buy them because I like them. I like the geometry and design. I love the way they fit. For a 26 inch wheel bike, thats probably the only frame I will own. 
There are several companies out there I could care less for, but not enough to come and whine about it, moreless call the people who use their products elitists. Stop paying attention to the labels on the downtube and ride.


----------



## Fischman (Jul 17, 2004)

*One example of number one . . .*



Square Bladder said:


> - Because they run their business like a business, which pisses off the purists who think the bike industry should be one big, happy bro deal.
> 
> - Because they make a lot of bikes, which pisses off the purists who think all bikes should be made by hand in a monastary somewhere.
> 
> ...


 . . . is that they used their tremendous cash reserves to buy the patent on the Horst Link and effectively freeze out the rest of the industry from what many think is the best suspension in the biz. This was particularly troublesome for the Turner fanatics who raved about having a true 4-bar on a handmade US boutique bike. Now, they have to decide . . . what do I really want--a 4 bar or a turner becuse you cant have both.

But, in true American can-do fashion, rahter than whine, some chose to seek alternatives and innovate. Now we have the DW Link, the VPP, the Maverick design and possibly others I don't know about. So, even if the big red S is truly evil, their evil has begat goodness.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Fischman said:


> . . . is that they used their tremendous cash reserves to buy the patent on the Horst Link and effectively freeze out the rest of the industry from what many think is the best suspension in the biz.


first of all, why does everyone slam specialized for buying the patent and suggest it is unethical to do so, but no one ever slams horst litner for selling it? talk about disingenuous. 

secondly, they didn't freeze anyone out of anything. they purchased a patent and decided not to license it to others. that's called FREE MARKET CAPITALISM. they own the patent to it and they can do what they want with it. just like litner could before he decided to sell it and make a ton of cash.

third, specialized wasn't the only one trying to purchase the patent. they just had the ability to write the largest check. and in FREE MARKET CAPITALISM the seller (in this case horst litner) chose to sell to the one with the most zeros on the check. that's called "smart business" and/or "common sense". 

but you don't see anyone bashing the others who were trying to purchase it. why's that???

and last, corporations are in business to make money; not to sit around with their competitors holding hands and singing kum-bah-yah.

it is not unethical to PURCHASE a patent to get exclusive rights to something, nor is it unethical to refuse to license others to use a design that one owns the patent for.

in fact, horst litner patented his linkage design so NO ONE ELSE COULD USE IT without his permission. get it? he patented it so he could make money by either licensing the design or by selling the patent of the design if he so chose to do. get it? when you come up with a better mouse trap the idea is to prevent others from copying it by holding a patent on it. get it? that's how one makes money in a free market economy off one's hard work and designs.

nor was it unethical that litner saw an opportunity to make a huge amount of cash from his design by selling it to specialized; and in doing so raked in much more than he ever would have made via licensing his design. get it?

geez louise, doesn't anyone take economics in college anymore??? :skep:


----------



## m0ngy (Dec 22, 2005)

it's because of free market capitalists like this that MANY TENS OF THOUSANDS of working class families already have, or will soon, lose their homes in the US alone. greed is NOT good! left to its own devices the unchecked free market polarizes society into the very wealthy few at the top, and the starving masses below. in bike terms, specialized would LOVE for all the little, boutique companies to be completely shut out of the market, so they could then divide-up the carcus with trek and giant. 

the horst link is a very simple design. :thumbsup: to horst litner for inventing it, but i personally believe such a ubiquitous design should be more accessible to other manufacturers. specialized have MONOPOLIZED this design, which does nothing for ME, the consumer. this is yet another reason why specialized SUCK ANUS, quite besides the fact they sell overpriced, middle-of-the-road, mom & pop, off-the-shelf products to noobs who wouldn't know any better.


----------



## scoutcat (Mar 30, 2008)

their shoes are better than sidi and pearl.... i love my s works mtb shoes...


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

m0ngy said:


> it's because of free market capitalists like this that MANY TENS OF THOUSANDS of working class families already have, or will soon, lose their homes in the US alone.


bovine excrement.

free market capitalism has nothing to do with people taking out mortgages they could not afford to repay. that's called consumer stupidity.

why is it someone else's fault when a consumer buys something they can't afford on credit and then it gets foreclosed because the payments can no longer be made? place blame where it lies... on the consumer who made a stupid choice and entered a contract they could not fulfill.



m0ngy said:


> left to its own devices the unchecked free market polarizes society into the very wealthy few at the top, and the starving masses below.


uh... no. unchecked free market capitalism does not polarize in any way, shape or form. free market capitalism is about supply and demand with little to no gubment intervention/subsidies. pure and simple.



m0ngy said:


> the horst link is a very simple design. :thumbsup: to horst litner for inventing it, but i personally believe such a ubiquitous design should be more accessible to other manufacturers.


then buy the patent from specialized and let people use freely use it.



m0ngy said:


> specialized have MONOPOLIZED this design


no, they legally purchased exclusive rights to use the design. there's a difference.



m0ngy said:


> , which does nothing for ME, the consumer. this is yet another reason why specialized SUCK ANUS, quite besides the fact they sell overpriced, middle-of-the-road, mom & pop, off-the-shelf products to noobs who wouldn't know any better.


about as much validity in this as in the rest of your rant. i.e. NONE.


----------



## KLittle123 (Oct 27, 2007)

Oops, double post...


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

KLittle123 said:


> This might sound like the stupidest reason ever...


agreed. but thanks to capitalism you have many other choices.


----------



## Qatarbhoy (Jun 13, 2008)

Aside from the pro cyclists themselves, who often simply come across as [email protected] as they recite the adman's copy in front of them, I find the smug Aryan types used in Specialized ads nauseating. They look like walk-ons from a Hitler Youth propaganda film.

"Observe us. We are perfection. Buy from the Big S and you can hang on to the coattails of our affluence and beauty."


----------



## Twister (Feb 28, 2006)

Bleagh! So called "free market capitalism" (the "invisible hand") is a hoax that the wealthy use to help control the rest of us and to perpetuate their control and accumulation of the worlds wealth. The dismal science in FACT.

Thanks to monogod, I've decided I'll never buy another Spesh. There are plenty of other bikes in the sea.


----------



## EGF168 (Aug 13, 2007)

Did you guys see the woman who was crying because so many different things didn't work on her new Specialized Epic?&#8230;how sad is that?:sad: Did you hear about the 3 other people who have come up to me over the last year who own the same Specialized Stumpjumper and wanted to know if I had also had problems with it?

2 years on and they are still kitting their bikes with stuff that has an appallingly high rate of problems, they've been forced to stop selling crap suspension on the Enduro so it's about time they did something about the rest of it. DON'T BUY SPECIALIZED! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


----------



## Fischman (Jul 17, 2004)

*Wow, how could I be so misunderstood*



monogod said:


> first of all, why does everyone slam specialized for buying the patent and suggest it is unethical to do so, but no one ever slams horst litner for selling it? talk about disingenuous.
> 
> _*Nowhere in this post did I slam Specialized--not even implied! I certainly made no value judgements or ethical assessments. Specialized bought the patent--statement of fact pure and simple. Not good, not bad, just is. I'm afraid some are so sensitive to the continual slamming of folks doing nothing wrong, they have developed a persecution complex and feel slammed even when none is intended. This is certainly understandable given the general tenor of this board and the political leanings of a large portion of our community, but was certainly not the case here. *_
> 
> ...


*Yep, MBA from BC 1994--loved every minute of it--especially Econ!*


----------



## KLittle123 (Oct 27, 2007)

This might sound like the stupidest reason ever but, um, occasionally I come across some really big arseholes and real bourgeoisie attitude type riders and pretty much a majority of them ride Specialized. I don't want to be a part of that. I feel nostalgic when I'm able to ride above what people would expect from the bike I ride.


----------



## roaddog (Aug 30, 2004)

Tkhe frame on my P2 was creaking, and they sent me a current year P3. I ride the hell out of my Epic Marathon in 2 different race series. Well at least I have no complaints excpt fo r my typing. But then ... I just ride bikes. I like the company for what I have got from them.


----------



## PCinSC (Oct 25, 2005)

Flamebait.

Editing your original post from yesterday and posting the same thing further down the thread just because monogod is the only one that took your bait is pretty poor form.

"Oops, double post" doesn't really explain things when your second post wasn't even made on the same day as the first.


KLittle123 said:


> This might sound like the stupidest reason ever but, um, occasionally I come across some really big arseholes and real bourgeoisie attitude type riders and pretty much a majority of them ride Specialized. I don't want to be a part of that. I feel nostalgic when I'm able to ride above what people would expect from the bike I ride.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Twister said:


> Bleagh! So called "free market capitalism" (the "invisible hand") is a hoax that the wealthy use to help control the rest of us and to perpetuate their control and accumulation of the worlds wealth.


what other fatuous, vapid, factually devoid things do the voices in your head tell you? ut:

hint: in free market capitalism the CONSUMER is king and dictates cost/quality/innovation.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Fischman said:


> Nowhere in this post did I slam Specialized--not even implied! I certainly made no value judgements or ethical assessments. Specialized bought the patent--statement of fact pure and simple. Not good, not bad, just is. I'm afraid some are so sensitive to the continual slamming of folks doing nothing wrong, they have developed a persecution complex and feel slammed even when none is intended. This is certainly understandable given the general tenor of this board and the political leanings of a large portion of our community, but was certainly not the case here.


i apologize if i misread the tone of your post, though it certainly seemed it was another "_boo-hoo-hoo... mean old specialized ruined it for everyone_" it admittedly could have gone the other way as well. perhaps the error was in my inference since you did state that this move on their part begat much innovation and benefit to the industry via alternative suspension designs.

i guess it just gets old to see so many amerikan socialists bemoaning the free market capitalist system so that's generally how statements like that are taken. perhaps i should have given you the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming that was the impetus of your position.

and yes, i would have to agree with you that they did freeze out everyone else via legal avenues. again, most of the time when that verbiage is used it is to denote illegal/unethical behavior; hence my response to it.

be that as it may, i'm glad i posted what i did because in response you expounded very eloquently as to the benefits of both free market capitalism as well as the business model that specialized follows.

even to the extent of pointing out something that i have failed to mention was the fact that their acquisition of the horst link patent and refusal to license/share it has indeed resulted in many attractive alternatives. as you said, "in true american fashion...".

sadly, that is becoming more rare every day. now it seems to be "true amerikan fashion" where people whine and moan and want to blame others and be taken care of and get handouts. where people criticize those who get ahead and encourage punishment for success. where people think that private enterprise is about holding hands and singing kum-bah-yah instead of making $$$.

oh yeah... we are clearly on the same page. :thumbsup:


----------



## bigpedaler (Jan 29, 2007)

lotta flame here, some from peudo-intellectuals who choose to lecture from a podium built of hubris. having divested myself of that thought....

I personally don't care much for spec's bikes. Tested my bud's Epic when he got it, and was impressed with the action of the brain shock. Just not enough to sway me to the brand.

I research bikes on my own, looking to fill my needs, and decide if the price i find is worth it. That's why i currently ride a Jamis XLT, and haven't regretted it once. I AM proud of the fact that I was able to build the bike with NOTHING from the OTHER BIG S on it. But that's my preference. Yours WILL -- not may -- differ.

Everybody has their motivations for like/hate for a manufacturer -- leave it at that.


----------



## cocheese (Jan 12, 2004)

Can we make this thread a poll?

Poll: Do you like Specialized or do you not like them?

Several years ago, I bought Specialized bikes for my wife and myself. I got an Enduro Pro and she got one of the first generation Epics. They were both good bikes. We didn't have any issues with them. The dealer treated us very well and gave us a healthy discount when I bouht two bikes.

I don't ride a Specialized myself, but I bought my son a Rockhopper for his birthday. I have a friend that works at the Spec'y dealer in town and I wanted to support him. It's been a fine bike. I have not had any problems with it. He likes it.


----------



## Camaro_Dave (Jun 15, 2008)

I happen to like specialized.

I've ridden trek, c-dale, giant, k2, scott etc etc and the geo of the speshy's fits me the best. I don't care if they are the BEST. I'd pay a hundred or two more for a comfortable bike. 

I LOVE my enduro. I have only ridden my demo 7 twice (picked it up thursday) and I'm falling in love with it. very sick bike! I loved my stumpjumper fsr but had to sell it to pay for the enduro. if the neighbor loves his pivot and I don't care for it that's great. as long as he's happy. 

arguing over why they hate speshy is like arguing over forks. I have had rockshox, fox, speshy and ridden zokie I know what I prefer.... probably different for everyone right???


----------



## KLittle123 (Oct 27, 2007)

No I posted it down because I accidently replied monogod's post and not to the entire thread in general. It was the wrong thing to post it too and would sort of be an off topic reply. Get a grip. I'm gonna take it your mad because I'm bad mouthing specialized, which I'm gonna guess is what you ride.


----------



## m0ngy (Dec 22, 2005)

Qatarbhoy said:


> Aside from the pro cyclists themselves, who often simply come across as [email protected] as they recite the adman's copy in front of them, I find the smug Aryan types used in Specialized ads nauseating. They look like walk-ons from a Hitler Youth propaganda film.
> 
> "Observe us. We are perfection. Buy from the Big S and you can hang on to the coattails of our affluence and beauty."


ROFLMAO!! :ciappa:

yep, that's what i'm talkin' bout!


----------



## knives out (Nov 23, 2007)

Qatarbhoy said:


> "I'll just put on a pink Hanna Montana jersey, fill my camelback up with Starbucks cafe mocha non-fat no whip, and whistle "American Pie" as I ride."
> 
> Whoa - are those things considered uncool?
> 
> ...


DC does suck ass and Vans are definitely a regular around my household... but I"m pretty particular to my adidas castrucci's as of late.


----------



## sgsrider (Jun 19, 2005)

i liked some of there older stuff, like my 02 enduro pro (RIP). but their new stuff jsut isn't the same. the new xc geometries and frames shapes on the new stumpy's and even the enduros do pedal well, and are exceptionally light, however i still feel my old bikes were smoother and easier to pedal thru the trails. I am surprised to hear you had no issues w/ your 1st gen epics, as they were recalled due to shock issues, but if they are still working, that's great! i honestly, havind ridden spec and trek products, feel trek has a MUCH better lineup for 08-09, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. also, as a dealer, i have to say specialized frustrated me this year when they sent me 4 defective frames that weren't even rideable under warranty until they finally sent me a rideable product that cracked a weld from regular xc use less than 5 months later. all in all, not happy w/ their customer service or their new stuff. i switched to a fuel ex 8 for 09


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

I just started to read this thread again, until I remembered that a quarter of it is Monogods smug ranting.

Free market. Ha! So 1920's. Free market capitalism is for right-wing idealists. Socialism is for left-wing suckers. Why waste money on a free market when you can reap the rewards and pin the risk on the public? Works for my industry! Screw you guys, I'm gettin rich! Yeehaw!

Oh yeah, and specialized? Cheap bikes, sold expensively. Innovation's been dead for a decade, get over it.


----------



## Anno domino (Jun 15, 2008)

This thread 'tarded.

Innovation dead? Have you compared a bike (and the prices) from ten years ago to one today? 

Specialized are no cheaper than any other mainstream manufacturer. If you hate Specialized you should also hate Giant/Merida (since it's rumoured they make 'em) and Trek/Fisher, Kona etc..



Could someone add something intelligent to this debate do you think or is the charade/theatre of another rigged election got you all befuddled in the brain?

Here's a doozy for you... what do you make? What do you still manufacture? How many of those fancy boutique brand frames are all American and not Tiawanese? How many of your all American brands are actually American made? DC? Nope. Vans? Nope. Levis? Nope. Nope Nope. Makes you wonder how you are going to weather the storm.


----------



## Qatarbhoy (Jun 13, 2008)

"This thread 'tarded."

True, but it's never gone _full_ retard. Stupid, yes; infantile, maybe; but full retard - never.


----------



## Twister (Feb 28, 2006)

monogod said:


> what other fatuous, vapid, factually devoid things do the voices in your head tell you? ut:
> 
> hint: in free market capitalism the CONSUMER is king and dictates cost/quality/innovation.


I have worked for many, many years in an industry that manufactures consumer commodities.

I happen to know for a fact that your premise is false, because I have helped to make it so.

Forget what your nice professor taught you in econ 202, mono. The real world is far more wicked than it appears. The public is manipulated and programmed from the cradle to the grave, and everyone, even you and I mono, are molded in ways very few of us are aware of.

No one, at least no one who is sentient and not in a very deep cloister, is immune.

It may be sad. But it's also, sadly, true.


----------



## knives out (Nov 23, 2007)

The whole specialized debate can more or less be summed up like this:


----------



## Twister (Feb 28, 2006)

nyuk nyuk


----------



## Anno domino (Jun 15, 2008)

Twister said:


> I have worked for many, many years in an industry that manufactures consumer commodities.
> 
> I happen to know for a fact that your premise is false, because I have helped to make it so.
> 
> ...


I see where you are coming from...

The consumer didn't want 27 gears, but marketing convinced us otherwise...

We didn't really need 6in front and rear travel.. again ditto above...

I find it difficult (in my mind at least) to mix Tachinni with DC.. or Hurley with Polo....


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Twister said:


> I have worked for many, many years in an industry that manufactures consumer commodities.
> 
> I happen to know for a fact that your premise is false, because I have helped to make it so.
> 
> ...


well, it's not a premise. free market capitalism is driven by consumers. period. that's the very definition OF free market capitalism. one in which the consumer controls what is developed/sold and is for the most part free of gubment regulation/subsidization.

marketing, on the other hand, controls consumers. now if you had said that consumers were driven by marketing, and thus via marketing free market capitalism was controlled i would have agreed.

but it is quite in error to say that free market capitalism controls anything/one in and of itself; or is in any way diabolical.

i agree whole heartedly with you that the world is far more wicked that it appears. we could even talk about it here, if you like. this thread has long since gone belly up, so why not? at least it would be interesting again.

and i agree with you that a framework and methodology exists to control from cradle to grave. not only on a human realm via gubment/society/culture, but also from a spiritual standpoint as well. again a great topic for conversation that we would likely both enjoy discussing.

so aside from the free market capitalism thing, i assure you we are very much on the same page with the rest. :thumbsup:


----------



## Anno domino (Jun 15, 2008)

is this a good point to exclaim 'banks lend money they do not have?'


----------



## dirtpunk7 (Dec 17, 2007)

I could care less about if someone does or does not hate Spesh. If you feel you have a legit reason to hate on Spesh, more power to you. Some of my best buds hate Spesh.

But those of you that have commented negatively on the type of rider who owns a Spesh bike might want to look in the mirror first.

Too many times has a boutique bike owner looked down their nose at me and my Spesh bike and assumes that:

1. He is more passionate about biking because his bike is more expensive
2. Has more skill(s) because he has more passion because his bike is more expensive
3. Is stronger fitness wise because he ownes a high end bike
4. More knowledgeable about mtbing and bikes because he has an expensive bike
5. Enjoys the outdoors more because he has an expensive bike
6. Rides more because he has an expensive bike
7. Is a better person morally because he owns an expensive bike
8. He is more friendly to his fellow riders on the trail because he owns an expensive bike


Get over yourselves. You are no better than anyone else.

It is the rider not the bike.


----------



## Lukem (Oct 17, 2008)

300+ posts on why people hate Specialized bikes....ha and I thought the debate between Fords and Chevys was intense.


----------



## KLittle123 (Oct 27, 2007)

Chevy! and anyone if anyone says otherwise I'll make you eat your words...haha. Jk.


----------



## Shocknerd (Aug 3, 2004)

:madmax:


Bends But Doesn't Break said:


> Did anybody else who was at Interbike see the placards hanging in the entryways at Specialized's booth, stating something along the lines of "Dealers only?"
> 
> Nobody else had any signage of this type.
> 
> ...


One reason they may have a 'dealer filter' is keep out trouble makers. It might get awkward if the real inventors of their 'innovations' ask questions in a public envirorment. Maybe it wouldn't help moral if their employees were reminded of what kind of people they work for. I can't think of any other reason.

Personally, I would like have a little chat with Sinyard at Interbike. madmax:


----------



## whiteowlonfire (Nov 3, 2008)

ok enough about why the company doesnt meet everyone's customer service expectations; how about the bike itself? I just got an 08 hard rock sport and I am very pleased. It has cut my commute to work by about 15%, I believe because of how lightweight the bike is. I have heard that these are very tough frames and that the rims are tough as well. I find that it is much easier to ride wheelies and hopping curbs is easier. I have only ridden it on street, and it handles very well. I got mine for 200 and I like it better than my raleigh m80


----------



## BRKNSPOKE (Jan 2, 2007)

Overpriced for what you get.


----------



## ryman (May 4, 2004)

their shoes suck

They make a lightweight shoe that has a shitty design with a mechanism that's bound to fail

That's why Special K sucks


----------



## longman (May 9, 2007)

Shocknerd said:


> :madmax:
> 
> One reason they may have a 'dealer filter' is keep out trouble makers. It might get awkward if the real inventors of their 'innovations' ask questions in a public envirorment. Maybe it wouldn't help moral if their employees were reminded of what kind of people they work for. I can't think of any other reason.
> 
> . madmax:


they didn't keep me out...


----------



## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

knives out said:


> The whole specialized debate can more or less be summed up like this:


----------



## wyatt79m (Mar 3, 2007)

Mike Sinyard sucks


----------



## 446670h (Oct 9, 2005)

My only reason for no longer looking at specialized catalog is that they are no longer made here. So basically I see them as generic. 
I can understand that it may not be possible to make a cheep bike over here anymore but since some companies recently could, and some mid range bikes still are, I assume it was a choice. I wish I knew what happened; they might get some pity. Some companies outsource for greed, some because they can't manage the business end of manufacturing (hard to do if your new and small), and some because they actually no longer really exist.
You can still get a Cannodale if you need a US suspension bike, and a Gunnar for a hard tale, 29er or road. 
I hope that it will always be possible to manufacture bikes that I can have to much pride in. I wish that someone had told the US component manufacturers Forge or perish. Having been raised on Schwinn, I was really disappointed when they died; a modern Greenville Cimmaron would be rad to the max.
By the way, I recently called Manitou, the minute is no longer made here, so the Dorado will be the only thing made here. Fox hasn't responded by email. White Brother has Betty Boop make it clear. ATC is an option as well.
There's nothing wrong with being proud of a cheep bike if that's what you can afford, or you got an insane deal, or you are Chinese. I once had to ride a used 83 giant made Schwinn when offroad; I liked the large rear gear 10 speed. My ~94 giant catalog has a bunch of modernized mesa runners without Schwinn approved stickers.


----------



## Dirt Bringer (May 10, 2006)

Why does this thread continue?


----------



## HandyMan (Feb 25, 2008)

Dirt Bringer said:


> Why does this thread continue?


Because people love to hate


----------



## Dirt Bringer (May 10, 2006)

Well said.


----------



## Wheelspeed (Jan 12, 2006)

Hmm, I think I'm liking my bike more knowing that it gets some people so fired up. :madmax:


----------



## Shocknerd (Aug 3, 2004)

One reason to hate Specialized is they are bad for the industry and enthusiasts, really bad. Specialized shenanigans are directly responsible for "blocking" customers from getting advanced suspension technology. In my opinion a well engineered inertia valve shock system radically improves performance comfort and enjoyment beyond what is currently available to the public. In 1997 an inertia valve system for bicycles was developed and available for licensing. It incorporated the know how from millions of dollars in R+D in the auto industry.It made the bike version work like a charm. The Stratos ID cartridge benefited from some of that know how. 

How is it that Specialized has been able to keep the original off the market so they can enjoy a monopoly while offering a clearly inferior system? Naked greed, top tier lawyers and no conscience. 

Another technology they block other mfg's from using is the Horst linkage. It's extremely frustrating to see that Specialised sued Scott for patent infringement and Scott's lawyers appeared to have missed a few pivotal opportunities. 

I'm not a lawyer, but the first thing I would do if I got sued is check to see if the plaintiff paid all patent maintenance fees on the patent or did they take a discount they didn't qualify for. If they did, the plaintiff doesn't have the right to be in court. It's over real quick and the defense lawyer misses out on allot of fees. 

Bottom line, I really hate companies that screw up the patent system because they have the deep pockets to compensate for a lack of innovation. . uspto.gov 1.27:nono:


----------



## JEFMAL (Aug 13, 2008)

What aboout the inversly proportional flux capacitor monotube trajectory diversion braking system the lawyers are keeping from NASA? Section eleventy seventy of the penal code. AMEN


----------



## Dirt Bringer (May 10, 2006)

Well actually the horst link isnt specialized. Rocky mountain used to own it, (stupidly they sold it) and specialized bought it. That aside, how is their system inferior? Anyway, I like the idea that my riding a specialized makes people mad. And honestly this thread is pointless. How about we make a thread about how much we hate cannondale for using obsolete and archaic suspension systems and then overcharging for it? Getting my drift here? This is dumb. Thats my drift.


----------



## Shocknerd (Aug 3, 2004)

Dirt Bringer said:


> Well actually the horst link isnt specialized. Rocky mountain used to own it, (stupidly they sold it) and specialized bought it. That aside, how is their system inferior? Anyway, I like the idea that my riding a specialized makes people mad. And honestly this thread is pointless. How about we make a thread about how much we hate cannondale for using obsolete and archaic suspension systems and then overcharging for it? Getting my drift here? This is dumb. Thats my drift.


I was referring to the Specialized in house inertia valve shock being inferior to what other mfg's could be offering if Specialized didn't use their tactics/ shenanigans to keep better technology off the market. I thought the Horst was acquired from AMP.


----------



## BigClunke (Aug 12, 2006)

Monogod, I think the aspect of capitalism or unregulated market freedom you fail to consider is that consumers and other interests will provide influence as a natural check on a threatening force in the marketplace. the 4 link design is seen as a threat and people are going to rationalize reasons to continue supporting the brand that they have become loyal to. Sure, there are reasons to choose other companies, specialized can't fill every niche, but they certainly have the right technology for a huge chunk of them.
I'm not really disagreeing with you or capitalism, but I think we all need to accept the brand loyalty and emotional rationalizations, and smearing truth is part of what makes capitalism work without monopoly. It might be the ugly side, but it really is buyer beware or pay someone to know better for you. which is why we still have LBS, not direct to the public sales.
Don't hate the haters, just hate the free market for making them that way.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Dirt Bringer said:


> Well actually the horst link isnt specialized. Rocky mountain used to own it, (stupidly they sold it) and specialized bought it.





shocknerd said:


> I thought the Horst was acquired from AMP


not so on either count.

specialized purchased the patent directly from horst leitner, who filed the patent in 1994.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

BigClunke said:


> Monogod, I think the aspect of capitalism or unregulated market freedom you fail to consider is that consumers and other interests will provide influence as a natural check on a threatening force in the marketplace.


uh.... well.... that's actually precisely what i said. :thumbsup:



BigClunke said:


> they certainly have the right technology for a huge chunk of them.


that's what has people's panties all bunched up. they think specialized should hold hands, sing kum-bah-ya and share their technology rather than using it aggressively and strategically in the free market to corner market share.



BigClunke said:


> but it really is buyer beware or pay someone to know better for you. which is why we still have LBS, not direct to the public sales.


actually, the direct/online sales have quite a niche and following. and it is ABSOLUTELY buyer beware when dealing with them. but if you REALLY want to see some militant fanboi lemmings get their frilly panties all bunched up and then soil themselves profusely just mention "caveat emptor" in relation to direct/online sales. :lol:



BigClunke said:


> Don't hate the haters, just hate the free market for making them that way.


i don't hate the haters. everyone has a right to their own opinion no matter how asinine, vapid, or uninformed it may be. providing accurate information in response to vacuous opinions isn't hating, it's providing the haters with the facts to actually make an informed decision rather than an emotional one based on supposition, conjecture, and hearsay.

lastly, i certainly don't hate, nor would i encourage anyone else to hate, the free market. that's a niche/objective reserved for the socialists.


----------



## Dirt Bringer (May 10, 2006)

Actually I read amp had it, then rocky mountain, and rocky sold it to specialized.


----------



## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

Dirt Bringer said:


> Actually I read amp had it, then rocky mountain, and rocky sold it to specialized.


Horst who was Amp Research developed it, (he also worked with specialized - he helped design the first FSR). See for yourself - http://www.amp-research.com/products/misc/bikes.asp

Amp had the patent, and it was widely ignored. He didn't have the resources to lawyer up and go after all the offenders (and there were a lot). He later sold the patent rights to Specy.

It could have been Giant, Trek, or Rocky, but it wasn't. I'm sure the realationship with Specy helped there too.

JmZ


----------



## Shocknerd (Aug 3, 2004)

monogod said:


> not so on either count.
> 
> specialized purchased the patent directly from horst leitner, who filed the patent in 1994.


I thought AMP was owned by Horst.


----------



## Anno domino (Jun 15, 2008)

suddenly the tard thread got interesting again.


----------



## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

Shocknerd said:


> I thought AMP was owned by Horst.


He is listed as the CEO!


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Shocknerd said:


> I thought AMP was owned by Horst.


not to be confrontational, but that's kind of a red herring to the point i was making since the patent was filed by and granted to horst personally rather than a company, thus making horst personally the sole holder of the patent irrespective of what company he owned, directed, or served on the board of. he was the sole holder of the patent, not amp. view it here.

hence, it was horst, not amp, who sold the patent to specialized.

just sayin'...

the problem was that everyone was ripping off his idea and he didn't have the capital to fight the patent infringements so he just made bank and sold it. once done, specialized had ample resources to stop the people who were disregarding the patent and utilizing the design on their bikes sans licensing.

i'm kind of surprised no one is ragging on all the companies that lacked the ethics to respect horst's patent. no... you don't hear that. only a bunch of whining because specialized used any means necessary to put an end to all the infringement of the patent that THEY OWNED and obtained legally and ethically.


----------



## 446670h (Oct 9, 2005)

I wouldn't be upset with people copying the horst link. I'm surprized most suspension designs hold up as new technology. Paralelogram designs resemble the front end of a '64 Buick.
Someone should have taken an erector set and desribed each posible combination and patented them all. 
When does the horst link run out?

I wouldn't buy an asian bike just to get a horst link.


----------



## Anno domino (Jun 15, 2008)

Isn't a four bar linkage just a regular mechanical design principle? I seem to recall (it was a long time ago) that it is, even with seemingly non four bar linkages!!!

In which case, should we allow the patenting of basic mechanical principles?


----------



## Dirt Bringer (May 10, 2006)

No, thats a lie that some companies have propagated. A 4 bar link will work differently depending on whether it is set up as a floating pivot point (the best in my opinion), the horst link, (second best to me), or a common single pivot with 2 other links driving the shock, (done for whieght, stiffness, so on, I would never buy one of these). But yea because putting the link BEFORE the dropout causes the rear wheel to float, in effect, and changes chain length and tension as set up, it is very different from a normal "faux" as they are called 4 bar link (the single pivot with multiple links). Thanks to the invention of the stable platform system in many versions, exe. propedal, people have begun to forget the value of these superior suspension systems and begin to think they are all the same, which they are not.


----------



## 446670h (Oct 9, 2005)

I'm not saying there all the same. I'm just saying that you can take an erector set nail 2 bars down and and attach them with 3rd piece vary the lenth of each one and desribe the design. The 2 nailed down bars can be set to go in full circles. put your axel at any point on the assembly and describe each variation. dont forget to patten each of the three members as a brake location, each as a shock. you can also atach the shock between any of the 4members on either side of each pivot.
If they are not parallel and the axel is attached to the third connecting erector set piece, then the axel will move like there is a different pivot. If they are different lengths then your 64 Buicks tire will tilt as it move up and down as if the axle were attached to a moving pivot with a changing arc. 

single pivot 4 bars isolated the shock from binding and allowed the suspension to be progressive. 

I don't hate specialize; I don't hate NEXT.
I just wish people would stop buying them, or at least not buy any models that cost more than a Gunnar or a US made Cannondale.
Just get a USA made bike. Unless your not an American.


----------



## Dirt Bringer (May 10, 2006)

446670, your right, pretty much entirely. Guess there are two ways to make a point. I cant agree with the "buy usa made bikes" though. Ummm, _why_?


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

446670h said:


> Just get a USA made bike. Unless your not an American.


interesting statement. to satisfy my own curiosity i can't help but wonder...

do you also check the label on all your clothes too? shoes? electronics? dishes? furniture? how about your car? even if it is ASSEMBLED in america the profits from these imports still goes out of the country for the most part. how about the replacement parts for your car? a surprisingly high number are made in mexico, even for german and asian cars. how about the computer that you're using to stipulate that people who buy imported bikes are un-american? is it 100% american made with 100% american made parts? ever buy produce? read the little sticker on it... "product of chile", "product of mexico", "product of argentina", "product of (wherever)".

unless you can say that ALL of your goods and foods are 100% american made/designed/grown/assembled, with 100% american made parts (i.e. not just ASSEMBLED or DESIGNED) in america then by definition it would be somewhat hypocritical to suggest that one is unamerican for buying a bike that is not american made... would it not?

just sayin'.....

oh, and last time i checked cannondale bikes come speced with LOTS of imported (i.e. NOT american made) parts. :thumbsup:


----------



## Anno domino (Jun 15, 2008)

Dirt Bringer said:


> No, thats a lie that some companies have propagated. A 4 bar link will work differently depending on whether it is set up as a floating pivot point (the best in my opinion), the horst link, (second best to me), or a common single pivot with 2 other links driving the shock, (done for whieght, stiffness, so on, I would never buy one of these). But yea because putting the link BEFORE the dropout causes the rear wheel to float, in effect, and changes chain length and tension as set up, it is very different from a normal "faux" as they are called 4 bar link (the single pivot with multiple links). Thanks to the invention of the stable platform system in many versions, exe. propedal, people have begun to forget the value of these superior suspension systems and begin to think they are all the same, which they are not.


Let me put it another way. There is only a limited number of 4 bar linkage options. Therefore, isn't it wrong to prevent concurrent devlopment of particular 4 bar linkage designs? Because it lessens the options enourmously.

In a way, isn't it akin to Kellog's apparent belief that, because of Tony, they own the image of the tiger?

I've recently become a Specialized fan BTW, I'm just playing devil's advocate.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Anno domino said:


> In a way, isn't it akin to Kellog's apparent belief that, because of Tony, they own the image of the tiger?


but they don't own the image or likeness of all tigers outright. they own the caricatured likeness of tony along with the name and his catch phrase.

so one could have a product with "thomas the tiger" and as long as he didn't look similar to tony it would not be a copyright infringement.

liken that to the horst link... as long as one doesn't use a similar design too close to the horst then there is no patent infringement. actually, it has more to do with where the pivots are placed than anything else.


----------



## Dirt Bringer (May 10, 2006)

Anno domino said:


> Let me put it another way. There is only a limited number of 4 bar linkage options. Therefore, isn't it wrong to prevent concurrent devlopment of particular 4 bar linkage designs? Because it lessens the options enourmously.
> 
> In a way, isn't it akin to Kellog's apparent belief that, because of Tony, they own the image of the tiger?
> 
> I've recently become a Specialized fan BTW, I'm just playing devil's advocate.


Actually I agree with you. I think this whole "patent" thing is very old. Specialized got smart, played its part, and deserved what it got for its brains, but its time to free up the horst link patent. Also, if it wasnt for all our stuff being made in china, this country and its economy (current situation not withstading) would be much weaker. Its because things are made so cheap in china that people can buy so much here, in effect causing the economy to grow. Now I dont like the fact that over the past 10 years its gone from MOST things being made there to EVERYTHING being made there. That isnt a good idea for the economy of the country, but you cant hate it either. Put things in context.


----------



## Anno domino (Jun 15, 2008)

monogod said:


> but they don't own the image or likeness of all tigers outright. they own the caricatured likeness of tony along with the name and his catch phrase.
> 
> so one could have a product with "thomas the tiger" and as long as he didn't look similar to tony it would not be a copyright infringement.
> 
> liken that to the horst link... as long as one doesn't use a similar design too close to the horst then there is no patent infringement. actually, it has more to do with where the pivots are placed than anything else.


Yes they only own Tony the tiger, however they have (unless I remember wrongly) successfully prevented others from using a tiger (not Tony) in their brand identity or adverts e.g. Esso's 'tiger in your tank' campaign.

Kellog's also caused a name change of music software FruityLoops Studio (now called FL Studio). The case against the software makers hadn't got to court, but the makers decided the court case wasn't worth the risk given Kellog's success in court in battles like that with Esso.

All you need is a bit of cash and a prevailing wind for all kinds of craziness to be upheld.


----------



## Anno domino (Jun 15, 2008)

Dirt Bringer said:


> Actually I agree with you. I think this whole "patent" thing is very old. Specialized got smart, played its part, and deserved what it got for its brains, but its time to free up the horst link patent. Also, if it wasnt for all our stuff being made in china, this country and its economy (current situation not withstading) would be much weaker. Its because things are made so cheap in china that people can buy so much here, in effect causing the economy to grow. Now I dont like the fact that over the past 10 years its gone from MOST things being made there to EVERYTHING being made there. That isnt a good idea for the economy of the country, but you cant hate it either. Put things in context.


But how will an economy - now based on service and finance - fare now that the lending of money (that never existed) by banks has halted?

It's true, I've never had so many riches. I've also never used my engineering degree in an engineering company.

We don't make anything, and as so called fossil fuels diminish, and the prices of fuel, materials, and transport rise.. we might start to regret our loss of local manufacturing expertise. Those Made In China bargains might not be so bargainous in 2 years time.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Anno domino said:


> Yes they only own Tony the tiger, however they have (unless I remember wrongly) successfully prevented others from using a tiger (not Tony) in their brand identity or adverts e.g. Esso's 'tiger in your tank' campaign.


the "tiger in the tank" campaign was not what kellogg's objected to. both companies had been using tigers in their ad campaigns since the 50's, with kellogg's using a tiger first. kellogg's never had a problem with esso's/exxon's use of their tiger to sell petroleum products, however they got all sideways when exxon started using their cartoon tiger to sell food and beverages. kellogg's claimed it caused their brand to be diluted by the use of the cartoon tiger to sell food products because the tiger looked so much like tony and to kids especially would blur the line between the two and lend brand credibility to exxon via the striking similarity.

and imho exxon's tiger looks a lot like tony.

tony:










exxon's "whimsical tiger":










don't these two looking strikingly similar? how about to an 8 year old? when mom and dad stop for gas and jr. sees exxon's tiger holding out a drink, little billy wants what "tony" is holding.

so in this case i would agree with kellogg's about copyright infringement and brand dilution.



Anno domino said:


> Kellog's also caused a name change of music software FruityLoops Studio (now called FL Studio). The case against the software makers hadn't got to court, but the makers decided the court case wasn't worth the risk given Kellog's success in court in battles like that with Esso.


well, imho that's a little to close to copyright infringement as well. simply adding a letter to a registered trademark is not enough to circumvent infringement.

that's like simply moving the rear pivot of a horst link 1mm lower than the fsr pivot and claiming it's not an infringement on the horst link patent.

there has to be a clear and plainly discernible difference to avoid infringement, and in both cases above i personally don't think there was.

so i would respectfully disagree that (at least in these two cases) it wasn't simply kellogg's going overboard and using tons of cash to fight and win a spurious battle.

part of copyright/patent/trademark infringement also covers things that could cause your copyrighted-material/trademark/patent to be diluted in the marketplace. simply using a tiger doesn't dilute tony, even if it is used to sell foods. but using one that looks so much like tony IS an infringement via dilution no matter WHAT is being sold. and fwiw, the old "tiger in your tank" campaign didn't use the tiger pictured above.

so i think it's hard to argue, from any position, that specialized has been out of line for protecting it's patent.


----------



## Anno domino (Jun 15, 2008)

Dude, tigers DO happen to look the same. It's funny that. Snails look like snails. Rabbits look like rabbits. Americans are all fat etc.

Tony the cartoon tiger did happen to look a bit like the Esso cartoon tiger, in the same way that a tiger looks like another tiger. They're ****ing tigers! Besides which, Kelloggs and Esso exist in totally different market places and I understand that the law is supposed to appreeciate this fact in cases like these. For example, Specialised Travel is apparently not causing any bother to Specialized bikes:

http://www.stlon.com/

It was Kellogg's financial might that won the battle with Esso. It has also fought or threatened wars over toucans and with a musical band called Fruityloops (who it bankrupted).

What about how the human genome and how all the little segments then got patented in the greedy expectation of what might come?

As for the 4 bar linkage? Was it novel enough to become a patent? Ultimately it doesn't really matter. The patent will be dead soon.


----------



## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

On a side note!
What fu*ckin' 8 year old kid wants to buy frosted flakes???? 
Parents buy FF for their kids, Not the other way. FF's is barely better than LIFE cereal. OR Raisin Bran. Sounds like a bogus argument by Kellogg. How many of you guys actually asked for FF as a child. Or Raisin Bran! Now if it was a Leprechan, I would have a different opinion.


----------



## Dirt Bringer (May 10, 2006)

Anno domino said:


> But how will an economy - now based on service and finance - fare now that the lending of money (that never existed) by banks has halted?
> 
> It's true, I've never had so many riches. I've also never used my engineering degree in an engineering company.
> 
> We don't make anything, and as so called fossil fuels diminish, and the prices of fuel, materials, and transport rise.. we might start to regret our loss of local manufacturing expertise. Those Made In China bargains might not be so bargainous in 2 years time.


You do have a point, but you also cant expect companies to suddenly come home after over 10 years of overseas manufacturing. Where we point the fingers of blame is irrelevant (well actually it is because it means something but lets leave that for some other time), but it will be hard to undo history now that the companies are so happily established overseas. I still think the government got us here through their brilliant lack of regulations and its their job to get us out. (I dont expect much though)


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Anno domino said:


> Dude, tigers DO happen to look the same. It's funny that. Snails look like snails. Rabbits look like rabbits. Americans are all fat etc.
> 
> Tony the cartoon tiger did happen to look a bit like the Esso cartoon tiger, in the same way that a tiger looks like another tiger. They're ****ing tigers!


no dude, you're missing the point. a cartoon tiger can be made to look dissimilar to another. case in point...

which of these cartoon tigers looks strikingly similar to tony?








































yes, all are "_****ing tigers_" as you say, but yet three bear little resemblance to tony.

had exxon used as their "whimsical tiger" any but "c" chances are no lawsuit would have occurred. kellogg was responding to the striking similarity between exxon's "whimsical tiger" and "tony" to sell FOOD PRODUCTS.



Anno Domino said:


> Besides which, Kelloggs and Esso exist in totally different market places and I understand that the law is supposed to appreeciate this fact in cases like these.


which is why for about 35 years kellogg's had no issue with the esso/exxon "tiger in your tank" campaign. it was only after exxon moved to convenience stores and started using their cartoon tiger to push FOOD PRODUCTS that kellogg's responded.

and rightly so, imho.

so the point, again, is how similar one's design/trademark/item/etc. is to a copyrighted/trademarked/patented one. enough dissimilarities and there is no infringement.

similarly, enough dissimilarities in a 4 bar link suspension system, specifically where the pivot point is not below the axle or in a certain place on the seat tube and there is no infringement on the horst patent.



Anno domino said:


> For example, Specialised Travel is apparently not causing any bother to Specialized bikes:
> 
> https://www.stlon.com/


let them use a big red "s" as their logo and see how fast that would change. :thumbsup:



Anno domino said:


> It was Kellogg's financial might that won the battle with Esso.


hardly. exxon is not a pauper. they too have unlimited pockets to squabble over such things, and i dare say even more so than does kellogg. it actually never got to court after the sixth district court overturned the lower district court's dismissal in favor of exxon's argument of acquiescence.

the sixth district said the district court was out of line to do so because exxon had never before used the tiger to sell FOOD PRODUCTS and remanded the case back to the district court for argument but the parties settled the case before litigation.

exxon did so because they were wrong and they knew it. it was exxon who was using deep pockets to try to legally enforce/legitimize a trademark infringement.

because of the likeness of the tigers selling food products kelloggs was justified to go after exxon. because of their patent on the horst link, specialized is justified to go after whomever infringes upon it.

i'd just like, for once, to hear someone hammer all the companies guilty of blatant patent infringement of horst leitner (which is what caused him to sell the patent in the first place) instead of specialized for defending their patent with their deep pockets.

the fact that horst DIDN'T have deep pockets is why all the unethical companies were copying his design. he lacked the resources to hold them accountable so they ran over him and stole his design. that, my friend, is what is egregious and detestable in this whole scenario regarding the horst link patent.

who wants to step up to the plate and decry that one?


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

wormvine said:


> Sounds like a bogus argument by Kellogg.


hardly.

the similarity of the two tigers to sell food products is a textbook example of brand dilution.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Dirt Bringer said:


> I still think the government got us here through their brilliant lack of regulations and its their job to get us out. (I dont expect much though)


i would submit that companies go overseas to AVOID excessive governmental regulation, not because of the lack of them. perhaps you've heard of osha? eeoc? human rights commision? just to name the big three. and that's not even considering taxation and all the burdens that go along with the various forms of it.

the gubment has over-regulated, over-taxed, and micromanaged corporations and industries to the point of financial ruin. many have no choice but to relocate overseas if they wish to stay solvent, something they would be unable to do under the heavy gubmental regulations/controls currently in place. so they cut their losses and bail across the pond.

and i would disagree that it is the gubment's job to "get us out". the function of gubment in a republic is not to control industry, but to stay out of it.


----------



## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

monogod said:


> hardly.
> 
> the similarity of the two tigers to sell food products is a textbook example of brand dilution.


yes I understand the idealistic, brand dilution argument. The "bogus" part is saying that a 8 year old would get confused about frosted flakes. An 8 year old wouldn't get confused because they wouldn't even pick frosted flakes for a cereal. 
Who here ever picked frosted flakes as a cereal when they were a child? Frosted Flakes are bunk and kids know it!


----------



## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

monogod said:


> i would submit that companies go overseas to AVOID excessive governmental regulation, not because of the lack of them. perhaps you've heard of osha? eeoc? human rights commision? just to name the big three. and that's not even considering taxation and all the burdens that go along with the various forms of it.
> 
> the gubment has over-regulated, over-taxed, and micromanaged corporations and industries to the point of financial ruin. many have no choice but to relocate overseas if they wish to stay solvent, something they would be unable to do under the heavy gubmental regulations/controls currently in place. so they cut their losses and bail across the pond.
> 
> and i would disagree that it is the gubment's job to "get us out". the function of gubment in a republic is not to control industry, but to stay out of it.


I agree, Too many unions and democrats forcing businesses to provide all kinds of benefits such as 401k, maternity leave, Sick pay, Paid time off, Holiday pay. Believe me, I am glad those benefits are there but you can't compete against countries that don't have those labor rights so US companies move their production there. The only way IMO to fix the movement of manufacturing to other countries outside the US is to implement tariff's on imported goods. You have to level the playing field otherwise it's a vacuum. But that in turn increases govt control and pisses off China who owns US.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

wormvine said:


> The only way IMO to fix the movement of manufacturing to other countries outside the US is to implement tariff's on imported goods. You have to level the playing field otherwise it's a vacuum. But that in turn increases govt control and pisses off China who owns US.


import tariffs and excise taxes are how the gubment generated revenue prior to the infernal revenue service. and they turned a yearly surplus to boot. enter centralized banking; fiat currency; and a heavy, graduated progressive income tax system and all the sudden the gubment is in the red.

but i digress... import tariffs do not increase gubment control over industry, it protects domestic interests. tariffs combined with getting gubment out of private industry and corporate america and the economy would shoot through the roof.

but yes, i agree with you that more stringent tariffs are needed. and again i agree that it would really hack of china... who owns us.


----------



## wormvine (Oct 27, 2005)

monogod said:


> import tariffs and excise taxes are how the gubment generated revenue prior to the infernal revenue service. and they turned a yearly surplus to boot. enter centralized banking; fiat currency; and a _heavy, graduated progressive income tax system _and all the sudden the gubment is in the red.


Interesting parallel here. What do you think China would/could do to the US if we started imposing huge tariffs on imported goods? Imagine if China made a margin call so to speak!
Now what do you think the upper class will do if/when Pelosi et al try to raise taxes on the upper and upper middle class. 
We can't do it to China but we can do it to our own people!


----------



## 446670h (Oct 9, 2005)

monogod said:


> interesting statement. to satisfy my own curiosity i can't help but wonder...
> 
> I'm not saying your un-American if you buy a foreign bike. That would be nice; I would get my wish. Americans would not buy specialized, and this thread would be full of gloating.
> I was saying that you have an reason to be proud of of a Taiwanese or Chinese bike if you if you are from there.
> ...


----------



## Anno domino (Jun 15, 2008)

monogod said:


> no dude, you're missing the point. a cartoon tiger can be made to look dissimilar to another. case in point...
> 
> which of these cartoon tigers looks strikingly similar to tony?
> 
> ...


You make some good points and since I am not without humility, I concede the argument.

Though I don't think Kelloggs had a right to pursue Fruityloops the band, or Fruityloops the music software, since, unlike Esso, the similarity was purely in the name, plus, as said, they operate in totally different markets.

I have 2 Specialized bikes but I do have concerns about the patent of a 4 bar implementation.


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Anno domino said:


> I don't think Kelloggs had a right to pursue Fruityloops the band, or Fruityloops the music software, since, unlike Esso, the similarity was purely in the name, plus, as said, they operate in totally different markets.


i agree on both parts with you on that one whole heartedly. the only stipulation i would have is that both must not have tried to make their packaging of their cd/software too similar to fruit loops cereal.

having not heard of the band, i can't speak on that but perhaps you can.

but i happen to have fruity loops the software and imho i am 100% with you that it was not a trademark infringement. it is a program that you make music via loops and samples. fwiw, it's actually quite fun too.

but i certainly agree with what i think your overall point was, and that was sometimes big companies go too far and are a bit over zealous in "protecting" their trademarks, even when there is no clear, or even indirect, brand dilution. kellogg vs. fruityloops software, for example.

that being said, i just don't think specialized (or kellogg in the case of esso) has ever been guilty of this. have they kept the horst link jealously to themselves? yes, because it works.

has that kept new technology off the market? even if it has, that was their right. however, i think it really spurned a lot of innovation to find something that worked as well or better since that specific design couldn't be used.

has specialized zealously gone after anything/anyone that even hints at infringement? yes, because of the debacle that horse leitner had before selling the patent to them. the new rocky mountain fs bikes are a perfect example. they actually took the horst link and then reverse engineered it to function as much like the horst as possible but yet be just enough dissimilar that it would not be an infringement.

i certainly don't mean to direct this at you personally, but i will repeat that i would like to hear someone for once bashing all the bike companies like rocky mountain, norco, etc that completely disregarded horst's patent and blatantly copied his system simply because he didn't have the resources to defend it; rather than constantly trying to make specialized seem like a bad guy because they used their resources to hammer anyone who dared try to infringe upon the horst link patent after they purchased it.



Anno domino said:


> I do have concerns about the patent of a 4 bar implementation.


how, or in what way, may i ask?


----------



## Shocknerd (Aug 3, 2004)

> rather than constantly trying to make specialized seem like a bad guy because they used their resources to hammer anyone who dared try to infringe upon the horst link patent after they purchased it.
> 
> how, or in what way, may i ask?


Hammering anyone who dared try to infringe upon the Horst link patent after they purchased it is one thing, Specialized may sue for infringement demanding the rule of law. Someone needs to see if Specialized played by the rules before they assume they have to answer to Specialized, especially the Horst patent. It's all public information.

Abusing the patent system to get a monopoly on the Brain is another subject. Specialized did NOT invent the inertia valve shock for bikes, yet no won will touch it because they know Specialized will cause them to incur legal expenses if they try. Specialized is able to do that because they "have" an extremely narrow patent. That's good enough to get into court in front of a judge that has no idea about patents. Once it's appealed to the patent experts it's a different story. That's good for making your opponent pay a few hundred thousand dollars to over a million before it gets serious. The public is stuck with their POS or a non inertia valve shock. That's bad for the industry. Obviously I have a bad attitude regarding this subject. I spent over a hundred thousand dollars on R+D for the bicycle inertia valve system in 1997. I can't license it because Specialized invented it after they hired McAndrews after that. That's the value of high priced lawyers.


----------



## 446670h (Oct 9, 2005)

Shocknerd said:


> Hammering anyone who dared try to infringe upon the Horst link patent after they purchased it is one thing, Specialized may sue for infringement demanding the rule of law. Someone needs to see if Specialized played by the rules before they assume they have to answer to Specialized, especially the Horst patent. It's all public information.
> 
> Abusing the patent system to get a monopoly on the Brain is another subject. Specialized did NOT invent the inertia valve shock for bikes, yet no won will touch it because they know Specialized will cause them to incur legal expenses if they try. Specialized is able to do that because they "have" an extremely narrow patent. That's good enough to get into court in front of a judge that has no idea about patents. Once it's appealed to the patent experts it's a different story. That's good for making your opponent pay a few hundred thousand dollars to over a million before it gets serious. The public is stuck with their POS or a non inertia valve shock. That's bad for the industry. Obviously I have a bad attitude regarding this subject. I spent over a hundred thousand dollars on R+D for the bicycle inertia valve system in 1997. I can't license it because Specialized invented it after they hired McAndrews sometime after 2000. That's the value of high priced lawyers.


Did you produce or sell anything with an inertia valve shock?
As far as I understand, if you bob produces something and doesn't patent it then sam invents it 5 years later, bob can make it, bill can make it and say he was copying bob.
I don't know if bob has to sell them or if bill or bob has to prove it was made. My father had a friend who was being sued for a windshield design. My father remembered that the design had been used 30 years ago on some British motorcycle. My father sent him an old catalog and the suing company lost there patent.

as I said, I dont hate specialized; the only reason to buy a specialized is if you are in the market for a bike below the price of a US made bike.


----------



## 446670h (Oct 9, 2005)

wormvine said:


> On a side note!
> What fu*ckin' 8 year old kid wants to buy frosted flakes????
> Parents buy FF for their kids, Not the other way. FF's is barely better than LIFE cereal. OR Raisin Bran. Sounds like a bogus argument by Kellogg. How many of you guys actually asked for FF as a child. Or Raisin Bran! Now if it was a Leprechan, I would have a different opinion.


I picked cereal for the toy inside; I don't remember when flavor mattered more. My 3 year old son would pick them if I asked him using the old name: Sugar Frosted Flakes. I wonder what they frost them with now .


----------



## Shocknerd (Aug 3, 2004)

446670h said:


> Did you produce or sell anything with an inertia valve shock?
> As far as I understand, if you bob produces something and doesn't patent it then sam invents it 5 years later, bob can make it, bill can make it and say he was copying bob.
> I don't know if bob has to sell them or if bill or bob has to prove it was made. My father had a friend who was being sued for a windshield design. My father remembered that the design had been used 30 years ago on some British motorcycle. My father sent him an old catalog and the suing company lost there patent.
> 
> as I said, I dont hate specialized; the only reason to buy a specialized is if you are in the market for a bike below the price of a US made bike.


In the early '90s I started a company to develop inertia valve shocks for all vehicles including bicycles. We helped car companies like Citroen and Mitsubishi dominate the Dakar Rallies. In '97 we developed the bicycle version using the patented flow control version of the inertia valve system. Specialized applied for and received a patent that they claim covers our system in spite of the fact there inventor didn't work for them 'till 2000 something. When they wanted a patent they argued to the examiner theirs blocked all movement when pedaling, That's what made it different from our system. Then it comes time to sue for infringement, they claim theirs covers systems that move when pedaling. That covers us.

Some of our patents: 6,119,830 Flow sensitive, acceleration sensitive shock absorber 
3 5,954,167 Flow sensitive acceleration sensitive shock absorber with added flow control 
4 5,823,305 Flow sensitive, acceleration sensitive shock absorber


----------



## rcmay (Jul 18, 2005)

446670h said:


> I just wish people would stop buying them, or at least not buy any models that cost more than a Gunnar or a US made Cannondale.
> Just get a USA made bike. Unless your not an American.


I ride a Specialized(actually my last 7 or 8 bikes have been Specialized), I have a Suzuki GSXR 600, and I also drive a Toyota Tundra. When American motorcycle manufacturer designs a motorcycle than can compete with my foreign bike, I will consider buying one. Same thing goes for my truck. I don't personally think that there is an American bicycle company that makes a technologically advanced bicycle as my Specialized. IMO, no one puts as much R&D and innovation as my Specialized. From what I have seen, alot American bike manu's make beautiful, yet classic designs. I am not one who goes for classic design, I like cutting edge. Having said all that, I do plan on getting a SS steel bike before too long, and it will most likely be a Surly.


----------



## lemco (Jun 11, 2008)

*Greed*

Did I see a post by Ayn Rand in there somewhere?


----------



## whiteowlonfire (Nov 3, 2008)

I agree- with chas. putting cables there is just a good way to snag sticks, branches, and other debris thrown up from the tires. Also, these can be severed if doing some serious rock/log hopping, which I am famous for. jk


----------



## 446670h (Oct 9, 2005)

Unfortunately I might have to understand your motorcycle purchace; major American motorcycle manufacturing fills niches that that aren't what everyone wants. I would prefer European cafe racers but thats because my father had dozens of them. (my father had more friends living when I was younger; be careful)
For some styles of riding the Japs have it, or at least sometimes for the money. 
I am a skeptic about specialized R&D, and believe half of problems that need to be fixed arise to market a new design. specialized probably spends more on marketing, and I believe reviews reflect the adds in the magazine. Do you sill have your older US made Specialized bikes? If I had them I'd be proud of them. I realize that cheep bikes would be difficult to make here. I just wouldn't want to pay more than the price of an American bike for an asian bike. I don't know when specialized got flushed, or what happened. I just see that Cannondale has been able to survive making mid&high range here. 
I was raised on Schwinns so until 1995 Paramount was the ultimate. So my bias is for steel, and Gunnar/Waterford. 
Wasn't your tundra made here but away from yankee auto unions? Even though its made here, Jap parts can be more costly than British. Maybe in the future you'll be able to buy cheap Jap compatible parts. So, whatever to the tundra.


----------



## rcmay (Jul 18, 2005)

Euro Cafe racers are awesome, trust me I wish I could afford to own one. But even the simple fact there is, you pretty much have to be a Triumph mechanic to own one or the repairs become too often and too expensive. 

I actually dont have any older specialized US made bikes. I wish I still had my american made Schwinn homegrown though. My argument with American vs. Foreign made bicycles is that no one makes an American made bike that excites me that your average person can afford. Trust me, Id love to have a Lightspeed or a Spot, but I can't justify the expense. Are the pro-US bike guys buying them because they want to keep the jobs and the money in America, or do they think an American welder can weld better than an Asian one? I honestly dont think that is true, it all comes down to the guy doing the job. If I wanted a bike that gets lots of Ooos and Ahhhs from the guys at the trail head, Id certainly buy American, probably an IF or Lynskey or something of the like. If I want something that rides good day after day, that has a great warranty, and fits in my budget I'll stick to my Specialized(just got a 09 Sj FSR Comp, w/ XT group)

As far as my Tundra is concerned, I have owned American cars and trucks and they just dont hold up as long. My last truck was a Nissa Frontier, and I didnt have one day of problems. My tundra was made in America, but with foreign parts by a foreign company. Obviously I am not the only red-blooded ameican who is switching to foreign cars and trucks, look whats happening to GM. Its all their fault though, when they make a car or truck as good as Toyota, Nissan, or Honda I'll start looking at them.


----------



## frank daleview (Jan 23, 2004)

how's this?


----------



## 446670h (Oct 9, 2005)

GM and the other two are having to pay yankee union workers with higher cost of living. With the exemption of early versions of asian made GM 700r4 automatic transmission, I'm not familiar with I don't get the American more reliable thing. 
Maybe under powered heavy vehicles put to much strain on small blck drive trains. I would expect a 396 nova to outlast a 307 Electra, and both to outlast a Coup DeVille convertible with a tall rear ratio, and a civic motor transplanted. But I don't think carburetted small block GM in a heavy car is unreliable I just don't expect it to last over 30 years. 



When I was very young we had no couch, maybe 1 car but ~24 motorcycles in the garage.
And of course British Standard wrenches.

Isn't your 09 SJ in the Cannondale rise 4 range?


----------



## rcmay (Jul 18, 2005)

My SJ is in the range of a C-dale Rize 4, but in all honesty, I would ride a Cannondale if someone gave it to me, but I would never spend my money on one. Ive worked at a couple of different Cannondale dealers over the last 4 years and Ive seen too many malfunctioning cannondale frames, lefty's and headshocks for me to ever spend my money on their bikes. When they were just releasing the Rize carbon's, our rep brought one in. It had never been ridden off road, or ever very hard in a parking lot, yet there was already a crack in the top tube.


----------



## 2ndgen (Jun 6, 2008)

73h 8r!110 said:


> Lately, i've heard a lot of people express their hate for specialized. Can someone please explain, i dont get it? Is specialized regarded as trendy; are they the "Wal-mart" of the biking industry. Someone throw me bone.
> 
> -brillo


*Wow Brillo. I never knew why before, but now I do...*


















:lol:


----------



## Twister (Feb 28, 2006)

I strongly dislike the way they feel compelled to put their name on the side of almost every frame in huge, contrasting letters.

I ride road too, and I would probably buy a Roubaix is it wasn't a rolling billboard.

The Stumps look pretty good this year though! 

Too bad they didn't introduce a size that fits the average American male properly.


----------



## Dirt Bringer (May 10, 2006)

Not this $#!t again...


----------



## Twister (Feb 28, 2006)

My stump HT fits me great. It's the full suss ones that feel awkward.

The Titus works good though..

LOTS of 5'9"-5'10" people say this.


----------



## cth978 (Feb 9, 2009)

some of you people talk about corprate mumbo jumbo like your actually in the specialized business and know EXACTLY what is going on every minute of every day. get over yourselves. if you ride a trek, or a giant, or a specialized its what you like. give it up. you talk **** about companies like there gonna go out of business because people have negative opinions. guess wat? there not.

specialized is a strong company thats not going anywhere. they have a bike in the smithsonian institute for being the first mountain bike made. trust me they will most likely outlast any other bike compnay. get over it.....


----------



## DWDW (Oct 7, 2005)

I've always wondered if the patent on the horst link didn't exist, if all companies would use it, especially one using VPP, DW link etc.


----------



## ARacer (Jan 20, 2009)

Odd numbers are so much better. Even numbers suck. Plus, even number customer service gets frustrated with me and won't help me when I insult them and rant like a lunatic. See, proof that even numbers suck and odd numbers are better.


----------



## sherijumper (Feb 19, 2007)

Hey ARACER ,noticed in your sig you ride a stumpy 29er . Did you buy it last year ?
I was looking at one last year and than did a complete 180 and bought an Ibis Mojo :eekster: . Ya I know , slightly diffrent than a 29 HT . 

Do you like it ? How do you like the big wheels ?


----------



## Twister (Feb 28, 2006)

cth978 said:


> specialized .... have a bike in the smithsonian institute for being the first mountain bike made....


Wow! I bet the VCCP, D. Gwynn, Geoff Apps, and guys like Joe Breeze, Tom Ritchey, Charlie Kelley, Keith Bontrager, and Otis Guy would be really surprised to hear about that!

Some other unsung pioneers, too, like the Buffalo Soldiers and the Roughstuff Fellowship.


----------



## kingbozo (Jan 31, 2004)

cth978 said:


> they have a bike in the smithsonian institute for being the first mountain bike made. trust me they will most likely outlast any other bike compnay. get over it.....


It's the first _mass produced_ mountain bike, not the overall first.


----------



## Dirt Bringer (May 10, 2006)

DWDW said:


> I've always wondered if the patent on the horst link didn't exist, if all companies would use it, especially one using VPP, DW link etc.


I actually like maestro, and other vpp systems MORE than the horst link. Technically its the same thing, effectively its completely different. In the end, I love my rockhopper because it just works really well. And I love vpp systems and horst link systems. And I cant stand single pivot systems for xc riding. People who hate specialized have a stick up their @$$.


----------



## saturnine (Mar 28, 2007)

only 5 pages?


----------



## Zepinator (Feb 20, 2009)

Have owned 7 Specialized bikes in the past & still have 2 road bikes (Tarmac & Tricross). Can't say every bike was great but that was part my problem in the selection of the bike in the first place.

I don't hate Specialized but I have mocked them a little. See photo below.

Sorry Mr Specialized :nono:


----------



## RedRider93 (Sep 28, 2007)

> they're common as sh!t


That would be Trek and Gary Fisher where I live, I barely see any other Specializeds


----------



## HotBlack (Feb 9, 2008)

Sweet!

_The_ defining thread of mtbr.


----------

