# How do you start the conversation?



## ubernerd (Mar 22, 2010)

As spring rolls around and the snow recedes around here, it's that time of year when eager folks start riding trails that aren't ready for it.

We have significant problems with trails that have very clay heavy soils and so riding them when muddy results in slower drying times, more long term damage, and serious production of dust later in the summer.

Here's my question: How do you start the conversation with someone who is riding a trail *long* before it's ready? In my almost daily walks with my dogs in the hills above my house, I keep coming across folks biking along *covered* in mud, and leaving serious trenches and I want to say something to get people thinking about the damage they are doing to the trails and the potential access issues they are causing. But, I'm not sure what to say that won't be regarded as confrontational.

Any ideas? Had any success in this venue?


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Good luck with that. In my experience, most people who are doing it don't want to hear about it. It affects their ride. How dare you?!! We have a section of trail here that routinely floods or gets really saturated when the river rises every spring. It gets cordoned off and signed, and it is in a state park. It's really sad how fast the tape and signage gets torn down every year and not just by bikers either.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Just let the air out of their vehicle tires... a hand pump is no fun on a car tire... they'll get the idea.


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## fishbum (Aug 8, 2007)

I tend to pick my battles... if the trails are on powerlines and other lands that are unmanaged I keep my mouth shut.

If the trails on are on public lands or state parks that have land managers I unleash my verbal voodoo, there is simply no place for rogue riders in publicly managed lands. One bad apple sets the stage for all of us. 

Usually the trail closures on public lands are clearly communicated, so the person that ignores those closures gets what they deserve from their peers.


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## ubernerd (Mar 22, 2010)

fishbum said:


> I tend to pick my battles... if the trails are on powerlines and other lands that are unmanaged I keep my mouth shut.
> 
> If the trails on are on public lands or state parks that have land managers I unleash my verbal voodoo, there is simply no place for rogue riders in publicly managed lands. One bad apple sets the stage for all of us.


Alas, while these trails are on public lands, the "managing" agency (and I use that term loosely) never posts closures. It's kind of a free-for-all and the trail quality has seriously degraded over the past couple of years. 

It was another frustrating day on the trails. I thought I might have gotten through to one rider after I told them about the muddy conditions ahead and the potential for doing long term trail damage if they kept going. Their response: "Oh, that's a bummer. The trails have been so good so far. Rats." They then pedalled off right through a long stretch of mud pits. :madman:

Maybe I need to invest in some tack strips to bury in the mud.

Sigh. Still looking for more constructive ideas if anyone has 'em. My optimism is fading...


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## roxnroots (Aug 12, 2010)

I'm part of a group that just built and now maintains a trail system in a PA state park. Unridden clay soil and a snowy winter/wet spring means we have some mushy spots that we haven't been able to rock armor yet. I try to be out there in the afternoons and on weekends to meet a lot of the new users and most are pretty cool about asking what "the rules" are since this is everyone's first time riding there.

Basically, we've been asking that they try to ride down the center in one rut through wet areas. It's reasonable enough that most guys follow the request. Simply telling them turn around, they can't ride today just won't work. Asking them to ride in a way that minimizes the damage actually does.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I posted signs that said, "Please repair your ruts!" at the trail entrance. We have done a lot of publicizing about when the trails are dry enough to ride in local and web media. 

Rant:
I suspect much of the inappropriate use is by complete ignorance and partially blame media hyped mud riding for growing that ignorance. Of course IMBA would have their name plastered on the most recent example I've seen, the back of the new Bicycling mag. What is more legitimatizing than IMBA's tacit approval? 

And no, the wimpy disclaimer in micro text doesn't change that.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

A large part of mountain biking culture LIKES damaged trails because they are "more technical." 

Fixing erosion damage, to them, is "sanitizing" (a bad thing).


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Cmc... I hear that, but a good builder can add more tech and challenge while adding sustainability


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

thefriar said:


> Cmc... I hear that, but a good builder can add more tech and challenge while adding sustainability


yeah, i guess it's been covered already:

*What does sustainability mean?*http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=591984


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## cjohnson (Jul 14, 2004)

*no stupiding signs*

charmingly effective.


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## ubernerd (Mar 22, 2010)

cjohnson said:


> charmingly effective.


Very nice. That's the approach I *want* to take, but I'm not sure how effective I can be from behind bars... Besides, my bail money would pay for some nice upgrades on my bike.


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## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

thefriar said:


> Just let the air out of their vehicle tires... a hand pump is no fun on a car tire... they'll get the idea.


Yeah I see someone doing that **** at a trailhead and it's gonna get physical real quick. Whether it's my car or not.


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

rebel1916 said:


> Yeah I see someone doing that **** at a trailhead and it's gonna get physical real quick. Whether it's my car or not.


So you see someone fudging with a car and you immediately get physical? Man, next time I forget which wheel well I leave my keys in I hope you're not in the lot.

In all seriousness, this would be reserved for the fools you know well enough to do that to, i.e. someone you've ridden with a a bunch of times and know, that just won't listen but you're friendly enough they won't piss in your tank.


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)




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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

Races and "fests" typically have pre-maintenance and post maintenance. 

Are you new to the world of trail maintenance and mt. bike advocacy/land manager relationshi management?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

And races are often held on special venues or shorter sections of trail that are close to the road with multiple laps. Those can be cleaned up quickly as thefriar states. 

I have issue with the people that are in miles from the trail heads and riding the few sections that are serious clay and mud issues in my area. Ninety-five percent of the area holds up in the storms with minimal in inconsequential mud issues. Asking users to stay off that one section of trail that does not handle rain is all we ask. And ask in vain...........


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## cmc4130 (Jan 30, 2008)

thefriar said:


> Races and "fests" typically have pre-maintenance and post maintenance.
> 
> Are you new to the world of trail maintenance and mt. bike advocacy/land manager relationshi management?


(are you talking to me ? )

i posted the pictures just to illustrate what bsieb said above . . . that media plays a big role in making mud riding seem to be a part of the sport. it's difficult to explain to people that something they see pros doing in magazines all the time is 'wrong.'


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## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

CMC... agree with your assessment, you post seemed to point the opposite direction that there's nothing wrong with it and we shouldn't get ourselves worked up.

Question was genuine, not meant to be snide... we get some folks in this forum who are curious and some who are trying to stir the pot.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

cmc is right. The images in mags and vids suggest a mud fest is not only a right of passage as an MTBer, but fun, like when you were a little kid.

While this influence exits there is little point in getting upset that people ride in the slop. You can only do your best with the trails you have. Make them for morons and still fun.

A B C lines in all marginal areas? Direct riders to follow (A,B,C) line recommendations based on the trailhead conditions board?

Or just accept that lines will degrade and need to be replaced at intervals (see Life Cycles movie) for the love of riding.

Haven't seen an MTB trail ever turn into the kind of bog that fire trails and 4WD tracks regularly do. Don't you think we worry to much at times?


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Ridnparadise said:


> Haven't seen an MTB trail ever turn into the kind of bog that fire trails and 4WD tracks regularly do. Don't you think we worry to much at times?


I have, you just aren't looking in the right spot.


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## ubernerd (Mar 22, 2010)

Ridnparadise said:


> .
> 
> Or just accept that lines will degrade and need to be replaced at intervals (see Life Cycles movie) for the love of riding.


If we were talking several years before a trail was destroyed, and if the area could be repatriated in those same several years of rest (while riding a second line), then maybe. But in my area, we now have a nice meadow that has 4 separate, parallel trails right through the middle of it because the trails get worn through to the cobbles and then folks start riding on the grass to the right. 2 years later, there is no more grass or dirt on that line, so off to the side we go again. Problem is: without the topsoil layer, the old lines will not heal/regrow in any reasonable timescale.

The same problem represents itself on hillside trails where the trail keeps getting wider and wider each year...

So, whether yo want to forgive those who ride trails while muddy is up to you, but to dismiss the long term damage of that and think it will self-heal if we get folks to ride a B-line is just folly in a lot of places.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Ridnparadise said:


> cmc is right. The images in mags and vids suggest a mud fest is not only a right of passage as an MTBer, but fun, like when you were a little kid.
> 
> While this influence exits there is little point in getting upset that people ride in the slop. You can only do your best with the trails you have. Make them for morons and still fun.
> 
> ...


The problem as I see it is that at some point land managers will be forced to deal with the problem of unsustainable trails by simply making the trails more like paved paths. For instance we have a 25 mile trail system in a 12' corridor on private land that won't allow the tread to simply keep moving over. So in the future, as use and abuse increase, trails will be much more constructed for the sake of durability. A lot of heavily abused trails will either go out of existence or become surfaced paths to deal with ever expanding resource damage issues.


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## Ridnparadise (Dec 14, 2007)

It is sad that there may be no solution other than closed periods in some areas and I do feel lucky we can keep it all going here despite a pretty full-on climate. I also know the scary feeling that all that hard work may be wasted in the next rain (thaw for a lot of you), But the thing I like about trailwork is making the riding better. Can't say I like the politics as much.

It does seem though, that trail is always going to be ridden when it shouldn't and so it goes.


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