# More pawls really better?



## rocky rode (Jul 13, 2005)

I've been riding affordable hubs, XT, etc. for 20 years. Is there really much advantage to freewheels/freehubs that have many pawls? I am used to fewer and seem to do just fine, never wished for quicker engagment, actually. Do you think I would I notice enough difference to justify the cost of one of those high dollar hubs? BTW, 140 lb finesse X-C rider (rigid 29er), wheel dish not a factor for me.


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## miSSionary (Jun 29, 2005)

rocky rode,
I have new I9's and do love them. Like you I have also had my share of XT or equivalent hubs, am a buck 35 and riding rigid. All that stated, I'd say no to the question. I have seen some of the guys with the 6 prawl I9's adjusting them to 3 prawl to help as some feel the hubs have too much drag on them. For me I do notice the engagement (just slightly) but mainly over techy stuff while climbing is it enough to justify needing the engagement? I don't think so, either way, I worry about drag when coasting (Though I have not noticed drag when coasting like I felt I would), other hub users worry about the quick engagement and not about drag coasting (so there is always the other side of the coin to look at). If you want a King/I9/DT Swiss, I'd say buy if you want the bling factor (and with these hubs you know you are buying a product that is expected to last a VERY long time) but I'd also say if you have XT's and want to keep running them it would be about as good (or better because that is what you are used to). I9's are what I will continue to run...but I am a bike whore and need the bling factor, thus I have I9's.ut: 
Cheers,
miSSionary


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## 2-old-2-go-slow (Jun 21, 2006)

Remember single blade razors?
2 blades?
3?
What are we up to now... 6?

Is more always better? Incrementally, yes, probably. Maybe. But somewhere along the line you have to ask when good enough is good enough.

But style always trumps function.


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

I think you should read Mike Garcia's Article: Freehub Engagement and the Law of Diminshing Returns. It gives a good insight on the relation between the number of pawls and actual benefit you can get.


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## cazloco (Apr 6, 2005)

*What it comes down to....*

Quality vs. quanity. I guess maint is an issue as well.

Caz


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## Lutarious (Feb 8, 2005)

*Preference,,,,*

I agree with everything everyone ever said, but......

I have also had pretty affordable hubs most of my bike life. I now have some Mavics, which are nice wheels, but don't have a million points of engagement. I never liked the sound of Kings.

Recently, I got a new Hadley SS hub witht he old 108 point engagement. I have to say, it is really a nice feeling. I th ink it helps for sure on techy stuff, especially climbing rocky stuff and crawling through tight stumps and roots and rocks etc. The biggest thing is that I never feel that slamming of parts when I ratchet the pedals over a rock or when I land a jump and start pedalling. It all just feels smoother. That said, I lived without for long time, and I would survive if I had to give them back, but they are really nice. What can I say.


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

*In a word.......................*



rocky rode said:


> ... Do you think I would I notice enough difference to justify the cost of one of those high dollar hubs? ...


....................no.

--Sparty

P.S. For the sake of reference/cred, I run an XT rear hub in the winter and a King in the summer. Truth is, enjoyment & performance factors aren't affected by which wheel I'm pedaling.


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## BikeMojo (Jan 6, 2005)

Just my opinion...

I personally have a difficult time going from Kings to hubs with slower engagement.... I tend to ride techy trails. If I were on blazing, swoopy, fast singletrack, it may not be as apparent....


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## dompedro3 (Jan 26, 2004)

2-old-2-go-slow said:


> Remember single blade razors?
> 2 blades?
> 3?
> What are we up to now... 6?
> ...


The two best shaves i've ever had:

The gilette fusion (5 blades) in my hands
A single blade old fashioned straight razor in the hands of my barber.

If you've got the skills it doesnt matter that much

(unless you're doing trials..then it may matter, but who does trials with a razor blade?)


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

*Cost.....*

I find a clear performance benefit on techy trails with King's engagement. On the other hand going back to XT hubs does feel odd for the first hour or so but then I adapt just fine. If Shimano made an XT dishless ss hub I'd probably buy it. XT hubs are pretty bombproof and work great; heavy though.

Another side to the hub story... Good hubs last a looong time. Sure a King is expensive but when you spread the cost over, say five to ten years, it's not that expensive relative to what we are putting into other gear. I've got a set of Kings that I've had at least a few wheels built up on. I go through frames, tires, chains, forks, and bars fairly quickly. King's have withstood the test of time and it's unlikely some new advancement will make Kings obsolete anytime soon. I was a 26" wheel guy; now I'm a 29" wheel guy. I'm rebuilding my wheels with my King hubs. Most of the rims were ready to die anyway. IMO a hub is a long term bike part investment. Like a stem or seat post. Investing high dollars in an item that you'll have for a number of years isn't so bad.


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

rocky rode said:


> I've been riding affordable hubs, XT, etc. for 20 years. Is there really much advantage to freewheels/freehubs that have many pawls? I am used to fewer and seem to do just fine, never wished for quicker engagment, actually. Do you think I would I notice enough difference to justify the cost of one of those high dollar hubs? BTW, 140 lb finesse X-C rider (rigid 29er), wheel dish not a factor for me.


 I do notice the difference on tight technical singletrack where I have to ratchet / backpedal and time my pedal strokes to miss rocks and logs, but it's really no big deal. Some hubs are better than others in this situation, but you usually have to pay more for them.

I usually prefer good quality hubs, but the Shimano XT's on the front and something like DT's on the rear are fine, imo.

I have been known to run AC hubs, too....:eekster: 

R.


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

To me, I only miss my CK hub when riding techy (steep)uphill terrain. Otherwise, I never think about it.


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## supercorsa (Jan 18, 2004)

depends on what you ride. like a couple of other folks have said, the one place more pawls really come into their own is tech situations where you're having to ratchet pedal over stuff. makes a big differrence there...


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## dannybob (Feb 21, 2004)

the distinction should be made between number of pawls and points of engagement. not all freehubs even have pawls. king and dt swiss don't. pawls are the little spring-loaded guys that reach out and grab the teeth inside the body of the freewheel. more pawls means, at least theoretically, a more solid engagement. increasing the number of pawls does not increase the number of points of engagement nor does it make the does it decrease the distance you have to ratchet back to find the next point of engagement. increasing the number of teeth inside the freewheel will increase the number of points of engagement and make for quicker engagement, less necessary movement during ratcheting.

i imagine you could increase the number of points of engagement for a given number of internal teeth by doubling the number of pawls and orienting the second set so they were a half of a tooth ahead of the first set but i do not know of a maker that does that.

my opinion on the subject, more points of engagement doesn't matter to me. i've ridden king, dt, and shimano. i've never found the more instantaneous engagement to be much of an advantage. but hubs that have quicker engagement are generally nicer in other ways (ie lighter, more durable) and that i do appreciate.


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

dannybob said:


> i imagine you could increase the number of points of engagement for a given number of internal teeth by doubling the number of pawls and orienting the second set so they were a half of a tooth ahead of the first set but i do not know of a maker that does that.
> 
> .


Hope does exactly that in the "trials/SS" version of their Hope Pro 2 hub.


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## Onie (Sep 15, 2005)

If you like the technic'l stuff, go for the (rear) hubs havin' the greater engagement points since a large number of engagement points equals a small number of degrees of rotation.

Fast engaging hubs are particularly nice in stop-and-start technical sections, like if you have to ratchet your way through rocks or over a stream crossing where you can't do a full pedal circle. Also, when you are spinning the cranks quickly to try to "catch up" with a hub that is already turning (like on a long gradual downhill), a higher number of engagement points makes it easier.

Ride inspi®ed!


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## OneEyeMan (Sep 1, 2005)

Miker J said:


> I find a clear performance benefit on techy trails with King's engagement. On the other hand going back to XT hubs does feel odd for the first hour or so but then I adapt just fine. If Shimano made an XT dishless ss hub I'd probably buy it. XT hubs are pretty bombproof and work great; heavy though.
> 
> Another side to the hub story... Good hubs last a looong time. Sure a King is expensive but when you spread the cost over, say five to ten years, it's not that expensive relative to what we are putting into other gear.


I also have King hubs and totally agree with Miker J :thumbsup: 
I bought the Kings for their longevity and bomb-proofness.
When I realized how much better they were in the slow technical stuff over my previous XT's I was blown away.
Trust me, when you come down on the far side of high log crossing and start pedaling, the instant engagement of the rear hub is the difference between riding away cleanly and falling. 
XT's are great, but Kings, are far superior for longevity, ability to take abuse, seal against the elements, and technical riding.
And, they're ridiculously easy to maintain.
Lenny


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## BikeMojo (Jan 6, 2005)

Miker J said:


> Another side to the hub story... Good hubs last a looong time. Sure a King is expensive but when you spread the cost over, say five to ten years, it's not that expensive relative to what we are putting into other gear. I've got a set of Kings that I've had at least a few wheels built up on. I go through frames, tires, chains, forks, and bars fairly quickly. King's have withstood the test of time and it's unlikely some new advancement will make Kings obsolete anytime soon. I was a 26" wheel guy; now I'm a 29" wheel guy. I'm rebuilding my wheels with my King hubs. Most of the rims were ready to die anyway. IMO a hub is a long term bike part investment. Like a stem or seat post. Investing high dollars in an item that you'll have for a number of years isn't so bad.


amortization.

I realized that, and I got a D in Eco 101.


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## Chewieez (Oct 10, 2004)

dannybob said:


> i imagine you could increase the number of points of engagement for a given number of internal teeth by doubling the number of pawls and orienting the second set so they were a half of a tooth ahead of the first set but i do not know of a maker that does that.


Hadley 108pts have three pawls staggered to get the 108. So basically they do exactly what you just said, except with three. They stopped making the 108s and now make 72s so I'm guessing they are down to two staggered pawls.

anyhow... I'm currently riding a cheap shimano freewheel and it kinda sucks I must say. On just about every climb I get ahead of it a little bit, and I get that jarring "catch up" glunk. I'm assuming that I'm getting a little ahead of the freewheel but not quite to the next pawl. I am very curious to try a White Industries freewheel to see if theirs work better. I have a 17t that I use now, with a WI 16t that I can try. I am in the market for a 17t White Industries.

I wish hadley made a freewheel.... I have their hub on my geared bike and I love it.... 108 all day! mmmmm


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## Ojai Bicyclist (Nov 4, 2005)

dannybob said:


> the distinction should be made between number of pawls and points of engagement. not all freehubs even have pawls. king and dt swiss don't. pawls are the little spring-loaded guys that reach out and grab the teeth inside the body of the freewheel. more pawls means, at least theoretically, a more solid engagement. increasing the number of pawls does not increase the number of points of engagement nor does it make the does it decrease the distance you have to ratchet back to find the next point of engagement. increasing the number of teeth inside the freewheel will increase the number of points of engagement and make for quicker engagement, less necessary movement during ratcheting.
> 
> i imagine you could increase the number of points of engagement for a given number of internal teeth by doubling the number of pawls and orienting the second set so they were a half of a tooth ahead of the first set but i do not know of a maker that does that.
> 
> my opinion on the subject, more points of engagement doesn't matter to me. i've ridden king, dt, and shimano. i've never found the more instantaneous engagement to be much of an advantage. but hubs that have quicker engagement are generally nicer in other ways (ie lighter, more durable) and that i do appreciate.


Well said.

My BMX hubs have the offset you were talking about.


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## cogswell23 (Apr 24, 2006)

2-old-2-go-slow said:


> Remember single blade razors?
> 2 blades?
> 3?
> What are we up to now... 6?
> ...


http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33930?issue=4228&special=2004

As far as on-topic content, I have to say, I believe in Chris King. I would second any of the other posters who've made similar comments. The engagement is increidbly fast and precise--I definitely notice it. But that is only part of the allure--they are light, beautiful, and bombproof. And they are made here in Portland OR, only a couple of miles from my home. So I gotta represent.

You should too.


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## Onie (Sep 15, 2005)

For XTR WH-M975, how many points of engagement? Haven't come across any tech docs revealing such. 

TIA!


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## jokermtb (Mar 11, 2004)

I use a King hub on my full-boinger and a surly hub on my SS, which has a shimano cog on it.....

when switching between the two, there's only a _*small*_, but noticeable wind-up lag w/ the surly, compared to the king....not enough to mess anything up, but like anything else - you get used to whatever you got.....

The Kings have that near-instantaneous crack the whip engagement that's always there - it's very nice and gives you that nice pat on the back feeling, but I'd still be ok w/ a shimano xt hub and adapt to it's feel, if that was all I was willing to spend.

All in all, you're not really sacrificing anything by staying w/ XT, it's just got a different feel.

Now, if you were to use a mavic crossmax wheel, then you better start planning your wheel-kicks well in advance...there's a reason they're so light.....try one out, you'll end up loving your XT hub.


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## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

The new XTR hub has "125 percent faster engagement than previous models", ie, it has 36 clicks.
A trials company called (don't laugh) Koxx makes a 108-click trials freewheel, it might be nice on an SS.
Tim


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## BikeMojo (Jan 6, 2005)

Chewieez said:


> On just about every climb I get ahead of it a little bit, and I get that jarring "catch up" glunk. I'm assuming that I'm getting a little ahead of the freewheel but not quite to the next pawl.


Every time I experience that 'glunk', I visualize stripping the pawls. While it may never happen, it is still somthing that enters my mind (at the most inopportune time)

B.T.W.
nice avitar.


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## Ross W. (Jul 3, 2006)

I have king hubs on my trials bike and SS. On the trials bike, the engagement is definitely noticeable and beneficial. The only thing I notice about the King on the SS is the sound.

Unless you're doing trials, it really doesn't matter.


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## collideous (Jul 1, 2006)

crisillo said:


> I think you should read Mike Garcia's Article: Freehub Engagement and the Law of Diminshing Returns. It gives a good insight on the relation between the number of pawls and actual benefit you can get.


He needs to add one more hub to his list: Gravity Zero X One hub: infinite points of engagement, zero engagement delay

RB Design's Rollin'Roll freewheel uses needle rollers instead of pawls. Looks sweet too!


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