# PreTrek Kleins



## Beast Of The East (Aug 9, 2009)

What was the year that Trek bought klein? Did Trek take over manufacturing Kleins bikes also? The reason I ask is I saw this statement in a auction description.

THIS FRAME WAS MANUFACTURED IN CHEHALIS WASHINGTON :USING GARY KLEINS TUBING, 

IN GARY KLEINS FACTORY, USING GARY KLEINS WELDERS THAT HAD WORKED FOR HIM FOR YEARS.

THE FACT THAT TREK MAY HAVE OWNED KLEIN AT THE TIME IS IRRELEVANT!

THE FRAME IS STILL PRE TREK MANUFACTURING NOT MADE IN WISCONSIN AND THERE IS NO 

DOUBT THAT THIS FRAME WILL BE COLLECTABLE SOME DAY!!!


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## ShamusWave (Dec 15, 2007)

I did see that auction also...!  
Last pre-trek Klein is 1996. 1997 was year of Koi Adroit, still nice frame.


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## jcrew94123 (Aug 6, 2009)

Ask a different person....get a different answer.  

Technically, Trek acquired Klein in 1995 and production moved to Wisconsin in 2002.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_Bikes


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## Inigo Montoya (Dec 25, 2007)

a coke can top tube klein will never become a classic...


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## Beast Of The East (Aug 9, 2009)

jcrew94123 said:


> Ask a different person....get a different answer.
> 
> Technically, Trek acquired Klein in 1995 and production moved to Wisconsin in 2002.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_Bikes


When Trek bought Klein, what changes occured? Did the quality of the bikes go down when they were in Washington or when they moved to Wisconsin?


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

The 96 models were the last of the Klein Kleins. There were minor changes that Trek made, i.e. choice of stem color (or so I hear) but even though Trek may have owned Klein in 96, they made no changes. In 97, they made definitive changes.

Jcrew says ask a different person but there really isn't much debate about the substance of 96 being the last of the "pre-trek" or "real" Kleins.

Some people, including those who are very qualified to know say that the post-trek Kleins were still excellent bikes but that isn't the issue. The issue to a collector is that it is still the old school Klein, so up to and including 1996 models.


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## jcrew94123 (Aug 6, 2009)

If Klein was owned by Trek in 1995, then any Klein bike made or sold after that is, by definition, a "post-Trek Klein". I'm aware that people choose to think otherwise but since the company was sold/acquired in 1995, there really isn't much room for debate.


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## Beast Of The East (Aug 9, 2009)

Thanks for the info:thumbsup:


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## Beast Of The East (Aug 9, 2009)

If anybody has an opinion on what is a real preTrek Klein, I want to hear it.
After Trek bought Klein, did Trek reduce the amount of exotic paint jobs that seperated Klein from the average fat tube aluminum bike?


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## jcrew94123 (Aug 6, 2009)

Have a look at this....

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=87601&highlight=


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## ShamusWave (Dec 15, 2007)

As I told before, I count -96 still pre-trek era Kleins. As there was no major changes on frames. -97 and later are still great frames and many says they are best for riding as they have suspension geometry.


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## RobynC (Feb 14, 2004)

For me the demarcation point is when they switched to the "Star Trek-style" font for their "Klein" decals, which started to show up in 95/96.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

jcrew94123 said:


> If Klein was owned by Trek in 1995...there really isn't much room for debate.


True, there really isn't a lot of room for debate. Every single person that I am aware of who is knowledeable about Kleins considers the 96 model year, a pre-Trek Klein. Yes, they did own the company but that isn't the relevant point.

95 and 96 Kleins are identical in terms of construction. There are no changes, plain and simple. The Kleins from 96 to 97 very definitely did change in design terms. You could buy a rigid 96 (I have one) but you couldn't buy a rigid 97. Those press in BBs, well, same thing.

Even the paint available was more or less the same. Look at the 96 catalogs and the 97 catalogs and you will see a difference in color choices. 1997 was more restricted in choices and got away from the fades that so many people like. If you could find an original grafitti colored 97, you will make some good money selling it.

Trek may have held the stock in 1995, but they had no influence in the design or production rooms.


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## jcrew94123 (Aug 6, 2009)

In 1996, you couldn't get the MC2 or a Judy suspension fork painted to match the frame. Klein was already limiting their color choices as of '96. In '96 the Adroit came in both 2" and 1.75" downtube versions. There isn't much to distinguish a '96 Adroit (1.75") with Judy vs. a '97 Adroit with Judy. The reason that there isn't a pressed in BB in '97 is because Shimano's new gruppos required the Octalink bottom bracket. 

Again if you go back to his question, "what is a pre-Trek Klein" then the answer HAS to be what year was Klein an independent company and that would be some part of 1995. If the question was "what year did Klein bikes stop including certain desirable frame details?" well that is a totally different question.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

jcrew94123 said:


> The reason that there isn't a pressed in BB in '97 is because Shimano's new gruppos required the Octalink bottom bracket.


Not so much
Octalink was the "new standard" before 1997 and didnt trickle past XTR until 99/00ish


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## jcrew94123 (Aug 6, 2009)

Not sure what you mean by '99/'00. I have a '97 Adroit that's completely original with M950 XTR and bottom bracket.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Ugh*

Octalink available for XTR in 1995/1996. 
Octalink wasn't available below XTR until 1999-2000

If Klein was truely catering to Shimano's new design then the threaded BB shell would have been available earlier.
Also why bother changing BB shells since the majority of their bikes shipped with square taper BB's anyway?


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

jcrew94123 said:


> In 1996, you couldn't get the MC2 or a Judy suspension fork painted to match the frame. Klein was already limiting their color choices as of '96.


See this thread for a 96 with matching stem, there were some available. However, in general, they were not matching stems and Judys. Notice that in a previous post, I mention,_ "There were minor changes that Trek made, i.e. choice of stem color"_. Go to the 94 and 95 catalogues and you will notice that some of the lower end Kleins have non-matching paint, fwiw. No one is doubting that the color choices in suspension forks and stems have changed in 96. It's very clear that they did.



jcrew94123 said:


> In '96 the Adroit came in both 2" and 1.75" downtube versions. There isn't much to distinguish a '96 Adroit (1.75") with Judy vs. a '97 Adroit with Judy.


This has been covered very, very thoroughly in other threads. I am sure some will remember the knock-down thread about this (search for "man boobs" in VRC) Numerous other threads have covered this, do some searching. The Attitudes=1.75, Adroit=2.0. Yes, these two bikes were different in more ways than downtubes. Again, the naming change was imposed by trek, not in the design or production departments.

There isn't much to distinguish between the 96 and 97 1.75" _attitudes_, but there are some things, such as a threaded bb and a lack of rigid fork.



jcrew94123 said:


> Again if you go back to his question, "what is a pre-Trek Klein" then the answer HAS to be what year was Klein an independent company..


If you want to talk about legalities, then I suggest you go look at the corporate paperwork filed in Wisconsin and Washington Secretary of state and you will have your answer. This will provide a precise answer, to the day and hour. I am not going to look that up.

If you want to use the common nomenclature among Klein Nuts(tm), is that 96 is a pre.trek Klein for all the reasons stated by myself and others.

Here is a definition of nomenclature: a set or system of names or terms, as those used in a particular science or art, by an individual or community, etc.

That meaning seems to fit.


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## jcrew94123 (Aug 6, 2009)

Should have stuck with my original answer..."ask a different person..."


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## herbn (Sep 17, 2005)

the threaded bottom bracket was the end.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

jcrew94123 said:


> Should have stuck with my original answer..."ask a different person..."


Don't be sour.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

jcrew94123 said:


> Should have stuck with my original answer..."ask a different person..."


LOL. Totally. As someone how knows and they will give and answer like Pingu gave, and ask someone else ... they'll point to wiki. :thumbsup:


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## jcrew94123 (Aug 6, 2009)

I'm not sour, not at all. If anything, I'm just curious why folks choose to argue with the calendar. I didn't decide when Trek bought out Klein and neither did Pinguin. By definition, a Pre-Trek Klein is a Klein bike that was made before Trek acquired them so look to Wiki, or the SEC to confirm when the buyout was complete. I have Kleins on both side of the buyout and I'm happy with all of them.

EDIT: if you believe Wiki is filled with mis-information on when Klein was acquired, feel free to submit your changes to them along with the substantiating evidence that backs up your info.


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## loggerhead (Mar 8, 2009)

herbn said:


> the threaded bottom bracket was the end.


along with the oversized headtube. once i seen these two changes, i always assumed trek took over.


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

Is my Klein pre-trek? Is my Homegrown Yeti built? Cooks cranks or cook brothers racing cranks? 
Truly questions for the ages.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Next, can we discus the meaning of "pre-Trek Bontager" and "pre-Trek Fisher"?


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

laffeaux said:


> "pre-Trek Bontager"


Sure, why not?



laffeaux said:


> "pre-Trek Fisher"?


I don't think anyone would care, would they?


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## Beast Of The East (Aug 9, 2009)

pinguwin said:


> Sure, why not?
> 
> I don't think anyone would care, would they?


Did Trek buy Bontrager and Fisher about the same they bought Klein? 
Are preTrek Bontragers and Fishers more desirable than their post-Trek versions?


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

Beast Of The East said:


> Did Trek buy Bontrager and Fisher about the same they bought Klein?


no idea when they bought Fisher, the Bontrager brand was sold on march 10th 1995


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## cegrover (Oct 17, 2004)

I think my 1988 Mountain Klein is pre-Trek.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

hollister said:


> no idea when they bought Fisher, the Bontrager brand was sold on march 10th 1995


Rats! Mine was born on March 13, 1995.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Rats! Mine was born on March 13, 1995.


throw it back


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

sandmangts said:


> Is my Klein pre-trek? Is my Homegrown Yeti built? Cooks cranks or cook brothers racing cranks?
> Truly questions for the ages.


If the legendary R-man is dropped in a vat, cooled to minus -238 F and then rewarmed 100 years later and convinced to start making some IRD stuff again, does that still count as legit IRD vintage stuff?


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Beast Of The East said:


> Are preTrek Bontragers and Fishers more desirable than their post-Trek versions?


With Bontragers you get into the same ridiculous discussion about values (like Klein) of pre and post Trek bikes. The bikes made post Trek were made by the same guys in the same shop. Does it matter? Bikes evolve. Sure they're different. Some will say that makes them better, others say it takes away from the "authenticity." If it's a hand-made bike that rides nice, who cares who owned the company when it was built?


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Moot Point*



laffeaux said:


> Next, can we discus the meaning of "pre-Trek Fisher"?


GF invented Trek so they're all really the same bike.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

The biggest thing that changed when Klein went to Wisco, is Washington became a lot less polluted.


-Schmitty-


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## sandmangts (Feb 16, 2004)

The best thing about Trek buying out Klein is if your Klein breaks you can take it to the Trek dealer and they will honor the warranty if you are the original owner. My Mantra cracked and 1 month later I had a new Fuel EX-9 frame.


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

If I had a Mantra I think I might break it on purpose to upgrade to one of those.


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## girlonbike (Apr 24, 2008)

Yikes!


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

sfgirlonbike said:


> Yikes!


Calm down, I was talking about a Mantra, not a real Klein!


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

sandmangts said:


> The best thing about Trek buying out Klein is if your Klein breaks you can take it to the Trek dealer and they will honor the warranty if you are the original owner. My Mantra cracked and 1 month later I had a new Fuel EX-9 frame.


My buddy cracked his Klein Rascal back in the day and took the upgrade-replacement option to pick up an Adept Pro at a serious discount. When he cracked the Adept frame last year, Trek honored the warranty and gave him the same EX frame you got from warranty. Definitely cool of Trek to honor the warranty after 8 or 9 years of solid riding.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> Definitely cool of Trek to honor the warranty after 8 or 9 years of solid riding.


It's cool but part of the original warranty. The Rascal came with a lifetime warranty, one wouldn't expect the replacement to come with anything less. However, Trek could have said, "get stuffed." Cool, nonetheless.



laffeaux said:


> ...the same ridiculous discussion...Bikes evolve. Sure they're different


I don't think such conversations are ridiculous. There are things about the 96 Kleins that make them much more valuable than a 97 and that is not the opinion of only a few people either. Bikes do evolve but we are on a vintage group  , so such considerations do matter. That said, it is possible for a discussion to devolve pretty low (again, search for "man boobs")


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## jcrew94123 (Aug 6, 2009)

pinguwin said:


> There are things about the 96 Kleins that make them much more valuable than a 97...


Like what?

Btw, did you see the recent eBay auction for a '97 Adroit. It sold for $3,200 w/ a Judy fork.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...986519&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_628wt_1073


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

....(for better or) for worse, that bike hits all the stereotypical Klein owner buttons.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

jcrew94123 said:


> Like what?


See previous posts.

I have no idea why that bike sold for that amount but it wasn't because of the frame. Koi Attitudes (aka Adroits) generally do not have high sale prices. They are nice bikes, but don't command a premium in most cases.

Nate, actually that isn't so much a Klein thing as some would say it's a Retrobike thing (don't want to get that war started, do we?).


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## jcrew94123 (Aug 6, 2009)

Memories can sometimes be selective.

Here's a '96 Adroit with Judy fork that went for $750.

http://cgi.ebay.com/XL-Klein-Adroit...ntain_Bikes?hash=item20b00c3899#ht_500wt_1088

It doesn't make sense to me to suggest that '96's ALWAYS bring better money than '97's. I've given 2 concrete examples but I'd love to review what the frame details, or other halo items the 1996's posses that infer superiority to the 1997's. 

EDIT: I know that in general the earlier frames will bring higher prices but you have to admit that condition is everything. A '94 Attitude in fair condition is, in my mind, not worth more than a NOS or excellent condition '97 Adroit - especially since they're both using the same frames. Would you disagree? I also have to say that even though Klein's color pallette was more limited in '97 than '96, how many 1996 Adroits have you actually seen that aren't Burgundy/Blue? Seems like everyone selected (or had to take) that color scheme so it doesn't seem to really matter how many colors were available in 1996 because no one took advantage of it.

PS: I've searched on "man boobs" and there are over 200 threads. I'm not too keen about sifting through each one of them. Do you have a link?


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

CF part 2

did he ever post any pics?


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## muddybuddy (Jan 31, 2007)

pinguwin said:


> (again, search for "man boobs")


Thanks for the tip reading that thread put me in the perfect mood to start the weekend.:thumbsup:


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

memories can be selective indeed. That "adroit" (looks like an Attitude, see diffs between the bikes in other threads) is a large, which sells for less. I am surprised that it sold for that considering what bullseye cranks and hubs sell for. OTOH, it is a very poor ad with lousy pictures. It isn't an appealing ad at all.

I never said "always" command a better price. Notice I used "generally" and "most cases" In general, given everything else being equal, a 96 and earlier Klein will sell for more than a 97 or later. It's not a matter of opinion but I am speaking as someone who has been watching and buying Kleins for many years now.

If someone were to offer me a NOS 96 Klein in "team" color or a NOS 97 Koi and allow me to sell it, I would take the 96. FWIW, I haved a NOS 96.

Hollister, this is for you.









Jcrew, just limit your search to VRC and you will find "man boobs", it's only a few threads when I searched it the other day.


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## jcrew94123 (Aug 6, 2009)

pinguwin said:


> Jcrew, just limit your search to VRC and you will find "man boobs", it's only a few threads when I searched it the other day.


Found it - what a treat


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## cegrover (Oct 17, 2004)

Nice thread.


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## space49 (Jan 24, 2010)

sandmangts said:


> The best thing about Trek buying out Klein is if your Klein breaks you can take it to the Trek dealer and they will honor the warranty if you are the original owner. My Mantra cracked and 1 month later I had a new Fuel EX-9 frame.


Glad it worked that way for you. My 1990 Klein broke in half at the head tube on both the top tube and down tube. Trek said nope to the LIFETIME warranty, shipped frame back to me. No bike and to add insult to injuries, I was out of work for months as a result of the frame FAILURE. **** Trek and thier selective warranty coverage. :madmax: Fond memories for sure.


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## bestmtb (Oct 19, 2004)

*1997 Klein Adroit*



pinguwin said:


> See previous posts.
> 
> I have no idea why that bike sold for that amount but it wasn't because of the frame. Koi Attitudes (aka Adroits) generally do not have high sale prices. They are nice bikes, but don't command a premium in most cases.
> 
> Nate, actually that isn't so much a Klein thing as some would say it's a Retrobike thing (don't want to get that war started, do we?).


I sold that Klein for $700 dollars for that guy. I don't know how he got $3200 dollars for it.Actually, when I saw the auction I couldn't believe that he would sell it.
:madman:


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## ShamusWave (Dec 15, 2007)

bestmtb said:


> I sold that Klein for $700 dollars for that guy. I don't know how he got $3200 dollars for it.Actually, when I saw the auction I couldn't believe that he would sell it.
> :madman:


That just cant be true...I mean $3200? $700 is more normal price...


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## Archangel (Jan 15, 2004)

ShamusWave said:


> That just cant be true...I mean $3200? $700 is more normal price...


Ridiculous price for that Adroit! :skep:

Why Trek didn't make any significant changes to 1996 model line except for canceling Adroit frame production and relabeling surplus stock of Attitude frames to Adroits and that generic black colored stem thing, is that the 96 model year bikes were already in production in fall of 1995 when the deal was done. So they just couldn't do anything big.
BTW: Klein stopped colour-coding the suspension forks already for 1994 model year (when MC2 frames were introduced). Also the bottle cage bolts were not painted anymore from 94 onwards.

What comes to 96 Adroit value versus others, the 96 models usually sell for less than similar 94-95 Adroits for people are wary of the bikes having an Attitude frame and not being the real thing.

In 96 all other colors were available for extra cost whereas in previous years, almost all colors except for Storm/Nightstorm and 20th Anni were no-cost options for Adroit buyers. So therefore most bought the stock BBL one.


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## loggerhead (Mar 8, 2009)

after watching kleins on ebay, im not surprised to see the koi go for that being in the shape its in. probably had a buy it now for that $3200 with some german buying it as europeans love these things. the $750 klein i would think also had a b.i.n. and this person didn't know the value of it. the color does suck though and thats a big factor with kleins.


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## jcrew94123 (Aug 6, 2009)

It was a Buy It Now. He first had it at $4,000 then dropped it to $3,200 and it sold.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Holy Extortion Batman!*



jcrew94123 said:


> It was a Buy It Now. He first had it at $4,000 then dropped it to $3,200 and it sold.


The last 4 Attitudes (2 MC1, 2 MC2) I've purchased at auction on eBay didn't total anywhere near $3200


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