# Single pivot rear is not as good as other styles?



## yellowpasta2000 (Nov 22, 2008)

Is single pivot 4 the rear suspension not as good as "4 link"(??) style??

Thanks
Anto


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## Djponee (Dec 20, 2006)

depends who you ask. they are more simple, require much less maintenence than any othe design, and can be good bikes if the leverage ratios and angles are good. 

a lot of people hate single pivots just because this and that, but im personally a fan. they are cheap and last long.


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## yellowpasta2000 (Nov 22, 2008)

Djponee said:


> depends who you ask. they are more simple, require much less maintenence than any othe design, and can be good bikes if the leverage ratios and angles are good.
> 
> a lot of people hate single pivots just because this and that, but im personally a fan. they are cheap and last long.


"a lot of people hate single pivots just because "this and that" " whats "this and that" mean?


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## Munin2889 (Jun 24, 2006)

Brake jack, poorer pedaling then other setups, come to mind immediately. Even then, however, a lot of the new single pivots have gotten a lot better in both aspects.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

performance wise, nope. Maintenance wise (less pivots to maintain) yes.


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## redspotff (Dec 5, 2005)

single pivots work great, especially with the newer shock technologies out there. Take a look at who has been riding what and there are a lot of single pivots out there, of course it is the simplest and oldest technology so if you want to impress your friends with all your linkage and pivots you are at a diadvantage. Look at all the single pivots on the trails, in shops, etc. Some of the linkage systems have advantages, but depending on what you are looking for it may or may not be the right design for you.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Since this is the DH forum brake jack (or a lack thereof) is pretty important. For DH I would only use a single pivot with a floating brake. I own a single pivot (Bullit), DW Link (Mojo), and VPP (V10). The linkage bikes really do work better.


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## RYAN E (Jan 11, 2006)

Single pivot seems to be more flickable and has an overall more lively feel to it. Alot of 4 bar or confusing suspension designs are great for DH speed through rock gardens and stiffness but seem harder to place the rear end where you want it. Brake jack is BS, just ride your damm bike


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## BIKESerFUN (Sep 5, 2007)

Brake Jack is not BS. Brake jack is a L in the loss column.


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## yellowpasta2000 (Nov 22, 2008)

Cool thanks guys. looked up "brake jack" and wow really confusing... is it when u get on the back brakes it wants to swing the rear arm up and compress the rear suspension?


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## cyrix (Jan 29, 2008)

Lelandjt said:


> Since this is the DH forum brake jack (or a lack thereof) is pretty important. For DH I would only use a single pivot with a floating brake. I own a single pivot (Bullit), DW Link (Mojo), and VPP (V10). The linkage bikes really do work better.


As far as your concerned.

There is a reason there are varying options for WC DH riders. If Single Pivots didn't work or appeal for certain riders wouldn't we see nothing but DW or VPP represented in the top of the sport and nothing else? Or hell for that matter anyone who was all about VPP could say that VPP is what works "better" but yet again we see more options available.

My opinion is try out what you can and find what you like. You are really the only input you need, at least as far as some things are concerned. Everyone has their pros and cons and trust me, quite a few people here will argue until you cut their testicles off about what's better.


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## DaggerMadd (Dec 21, 2006)

Why, why do you guys call brake-induced suspension compression of single pivot bikes "brake jack"? It's called "brake squat". "Brake jack" is the opposite - brake-induced suspension decompression, it happens on most 4-bars but can't happen on any single-pivot. Sorry for being nerd


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## Flystagg (Nov 14, 2006)

can't wait for Shiver me timbers to get in on this one, and boxxerrider should be in here pretty soon to screaming about his orange

Ride what you want, there are a lot of good bikes out there


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## AznRider (Jun 20, 2008)

Single pivots - 
1)brake jack/squat - there's rear floating brake kit so not a big issue.
2)suspension bobs - Thats why we have PLATFORM SHOCKS DUH! and if you are seriously goin DH....why need a platform?


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## ducktape (May 21, 2007)

Personally after owning a Trance, a single pivot bike for a first DH bike really appealed to me. Yes the simplicity and easy maintenance is primarily what lead me to buy the Orange 222.
Having ridden it a few times now, yes the brake whateveryawannacallit is noticeable, but it's not such a bad thing as it encourages you to stay off your brakes as much as possible! The chain growth when pedalling takes a little getting used to as well.

I love my 222 though and my next bike probably would be a single pivot as well. Really I think geometry and fit as well as suspension set up is probably more crucial than the type of bike you have though.


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## Uncleroxk (Jul 28, 2007)

got a supreme mini dh, really like it, have tried other linkage, but doesn't suite me very well.


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## Karve (Mar 31, 2006)

Especially in DH single pivot bikes have a fantastic history. With all the systems its more how they are executed rather than what system they are.

Both our world champs this year are running single pivots
The Honda bike Minnar dominated on
Peaty's Orange days


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## daisycutter (Sep 18, 2005)

*no go!!*

Just an fyi

minar dominated after he left honda and went VPP!!! ie multi pivots


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## Orange-Goblin (Jan 27, 2008)

Many many races / championships / cups have been won on Single Pivots. Personal preference every time. FACT.

(I ride VPP Personally and prefer it over mt previous Orange single pivot because of less brake stuttering in bumpy sections, plusher feel, rearward wheel path helps with square edge hits etc) but single pivots have their place and there some brilliant SP bikes out there.!


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## redspotff (Dec 5, 2005)

daisycutter said:


> Just an fyi
> 
> minar dominated after he left honda and went VPP!!! ie multi pivots


Except for that championship he won in 2005. On his Honda. How about those Atherton kids? Single pivot again. I wonder if Cedric ever wishes he could get his cannondales back? Probably not, they were single pivots too.

The point is if you can ride fast, you can ride fast. On anything. If you think you are faster on a linkage bike, more power to you. You can buy mine, my next bike I will be going back to single pivot. Stiffer frame, less maintenance , shorter chainstays, and BTW a VPP bike has the same braking problems a single pivot has. The brake jack/squat is due to the bikes wheelbase changing as the suspension cycles.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I feel the rear end of my Bullit stiffen under braking. Felt the same thing on my Super 8. I don't feel any affect on the suspension while braking on my V10. The V10 gets better traction during braking and I can brake later into corners with it. Like I said, this is the only real downside to a well executed single pivot and if I was gonna use a single pivot for DH it would be one that comes with a floating brake and a much lower pivot than the Super 8 for minimal chain growth. Foes DH, mmmm.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ducktape said:


> Personally after owning a Trance, a single pivot bike for a first DH bike really appealed to me. Yes the simplicity and easy maintenance is primarily what lead me to buy the Orange 222.
> Having ridden it a few times now, yes the brake whateveryawannacallit is noticeable, but it's not such a bad thing as it encourages you to stay off your brakes as much as possible! The chain growth when pedalling takes a little getting used to as well.
> 
> I love my 222 though and my next bike probably would be a single pivot as well. Really I think geometry and fit as well as suspension set up is probably more crucial than the type of bike you have though.


Even Morewood has moved to a linkage-driven design, that should tell you something.

There are inherent advantages to using a linkage-driven design.

Linkage-driven isn't exactly the same as single-pivot vs. monopivot, but DH bikes do not have multiple front chainrings huge gear spreads, so the effects of the drivetrain on the suspension generally aren't as extreme as with other types of bikes. There are again inherent advantages to some multi-link designs, but in my experience they aren't as beneficial as having a solid linkage-driven bike, whether it be a monopivot (turner dhr, trek, etc) or not (dw-link, vpp, etc). Yes, some of those bikes are also multi-link bikes, but being able to control the shock rate makes a huge difference IME and most of the linkage-driven bikes are more laterally rigid due to the reinforcing nature of the linkage. Examples of monopivot bikes that do not have linakges would be the old santa cruz super 8, bullit, orange, morewood, etc.


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## mrpercussive (Apr 4, 2006)

Karve said:


> Especially in DH single pivot bikes have a fantastic history. With all the systems its more how they are executed rather than what system they are.
> 
> Both our world champs this year are running single pivots
> The Honda bike Minnar dominated on
> Peaty's Orange days


world champion won on a single pivot... Gee Atherton...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mrpercussive said:


> world champion won on a single pivot... Gee Atherton...


Correction, a linkage-driven single pivot....


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## juan pablo (Jan 17, 2007)

When discussing single pivot, wouldnt it more appropriate to split in mono vs linkage? Obviously single pivot is a category of its own compared to DW Maestro etc but the point of linkages is to take a single pivot and improve the qualities of traction etc. Then you can look at the subject a little more realisticaly eh? I mean VPP is great as suspension goes but then I have read loads of riders changing bearings twice a season. Single pivot is more maintenance friendly but has its own issues but maybe looking at all the info you can then decide what you are looking for. I have heard so many good things about Commencals design. I owned a Orange patriot and really felt the suspension was alive and I never felt seperated from the trail, great pop and super flickable too. Braking through bumps was an issue only when I started reading about it but by then I was already breaking in a way that suited the suspension. So ride smart or just charge through its up to you.


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

Without getting into a big suspension thread, single pivots don't actually get brake jack, they get brake squat. Brake jack is the tendency of the shock to extended while braking, brake squat is the tendency of the shock to sink in while braking. There are lots of factors that effect what happens when you brake, but the long and short of it is that there are very few bikes that exhibit actual brake jack (lawill designs are the only ones currently on the market that I can think of.

That said, brake squat is actually quite beneficial, and while most companies will go on and on about how they're fully active, they're actually not, and they're not fully active on purpose. Think of it this way: When you brake, you naturally get pitched forward. This means that suddenly your weight is distributed differently then you have the bike set up for, so your back end is suddenly oversprung. Youre going to lose small bump sensitivity because of this on any bike, but even worse your suddenly way further forward, and your fork sinks into the travel and now your bike is really unstable in the travel. 

Brake squat will equalize this to a degree - if the rear end sinks down in the travel too, then the bike will at least be stable in the travel and not suddenly have funky angles. Funky angles make a much bigger difference in bike handling then a slightly stiffened rear end. There is absolutely a compromise between too much squat and too little, but most single pivots fall well within the normal range and aren't as terrible as the marketing guys would make them out to be.

I ride nothing but single pivots. I have a true single pivot with my Gruitr and linkage driven with my Highline. What I like about both is that they use a needle bearing as opposed to a cartridge bearing that wears out faster. Single pivots are a lot easier to maintain and feel just as good, if not better than other designs when set-up correctly.


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## dhpunk~ (Jan 22, 2008)

Demo-9 said:


> Without getting into a big suspension thread, single pivots don't actually get brake jack, they get brake squat. Brake jack is the tendency of the shock to extended while braking, brake squat is the tendency of the shock to sink in while braking. There are lots of factors that effect what happens when you brake, but the long and short of it is that there are very few bikes that exhibit actual brake jack (lawill designs are the only ones currently on the market that I can think of.
> 
> That said, brake squat is actually quite beneficial, and while most companies will go on and on about how they're fully active, they're actually not, and they're not fully active on purpose. Think of it this way: When you brake, you naturally get pitched forward. This means that suddenly your weight is distributed differently then you have the bike set up for, so your back end is suddenly oversprung. Youre going to lose small bump sensitivity because of this on any bike, but even worse your suddenly way further forward, and your fork sinks into the travel and now your bike is really unstable in the travel.
> 
> ...


This is the truth, well said!!


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## P-townDave (Oct 12, 2006)

Demo-9 said:


> Without getting into a big suspension thread, single pivots don't actually get brake jack, they get brake squat. Brake jack is the tendency of the shock to extended while braking, brake squat is the tendency of the shock to sink in while braking. There are lots of factors that effect what happens when you brake, but the long and short of it is that there are very few bikes that exhibit actual brake jack (lawill designs are the only ones currently on the market that I can think of.
> 
> That said, brake squat is actually quite beneficial, and while most companies will go on and on about how they're fully active, they're actually not, and they're not fully active on purpose. Think of it this way: When you brake, you naturally get pitched forward. This means that suddenly your weight is distributed differently then you have the bike set up for, so your back end is suddenly oversprung. Youre going to lose small bump sensitivity because of this on any bike, but even worse your suddenly way further forward, and your fork sinks into the travel and now your bike is really unstable in the travel.
> 
> ...


I second the truth!

It took me a fancy $250 floating brake to realize how beneficial brake-squat is. I did lose the suspension stiffening through rock gardens, but a better way to do this is to brake before the rock garden and let the bike do it's thing while you're in it. When entering a corner a little hot, the brake squat can get you lower to rail it. My floating brake is hanging in the garage. . .

For the privateer - linkage-driven single-pivot. For the pro - whatever they tell you to use.


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

I own 3 FSR's (Horst Link) bikes, and two single pivots. They're all fun bikes to ride. IMHO, fit, geometry, and tire selection all trump suspension type. Pedaling efficiency is the area where single pivots suffer the most. For me adding a small amount of low speed compression damping solves that issue for seated pedaling. If you like to stand and hammer VPP or DW is the way to go.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

it's personal preference


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## 4JawChuck (Dec 1, 2008)

From an efficiency point of view I think a VPP bike is superior, you can use a cheaper shock with a VPP suspension design and not suffer pedal induced bob as seriously as a single pivot would.

That being said I prefer my single pivot Titus Loco Moto compared to my buddies SC Blur LT mainly because when I stomp the pedals the rear suspension extends which gives you all kinds of opportunities to pop off stuff on the trail, heck I can even get air off a curb with a well placed stomp on the pedals. When we trade bikes his feels dead to me and just doesn't react to what happens at the pedals, I suppose that makes it superior but to me it takes all the fun out of it. 

When climbing he has a completely different stance on the Blur and pedalling cadence which slows me down, if I need to push the front down I just pedal harder which plants the real wheel and pushes the front down...he always seems to be in my way because of the way it reacts to his pedal motions. Also the S motion that the rear triangle goes through during compression and extension on a VPP bike can definetly be felt at the pedals, I didn't care for it.

I guess if I owned his VPP bike I would be extolling the virtues of the design and how it separates the suspension from the rider. But my story is riding is all about having fun and my single pivot is way more fun to ride and getting the rear suspension tuned to the way I like it was way more involved which made me bond with that bike. When he got his bike we played with the suspension a lot in the first few rides but in the end it really didn't matter how it was adjusted, the design forced the behaviour...it wasn't really adjustable at all. The Propedal might as well not be there, it didn't do much.

I think the deal is there are two different types of riders, those that enjoy fiddling with their bike and the type that just wants a bike isolated from the road and fool proof.

Luckily there is one out there suited to your riding style, you just need to figure which kind of rider you are.

BTW there is no way you can convince me all those multiple tiny links are as stiff as my massive bearing single pivot Titus rocker with the 25 mm pivot bolt, single pivots still rule in that area...something to think about if your a Clyde like me.:thumbsup:


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## hucker1960 (Sep 30, 2008)

i've got the easiest answer, get on a hardtail


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> it's personal preference


My god, this is not what I expected from you!

Beer on me if I ever meet you in person


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## Rb (Feb 28, 2007)

hucker1960 said:


> get on a hardtail


win


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## seanzombie1336 (Jun 28, 2008)

Rb said:



> win


Race you to the bottom...

lose

Go back to the commuting forum.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

4JawChuck said:


> BTW there is no way you can convince me all those multiple tiny links are as stiff as my massive bearing single pivot Titus rocker with the 25 mm pivot bolt, single pivots still rule in that area...something to think about if your a Clyde like me.:thumbsup:


The thing is that with a single-pivot bike like your titus locomoto, or a heckler, super 8, etc- the entire rear swingarm can act as a lever for any off-camber impacts. This causes the rear triangle to "twist", and although you can do things like add huge pivots and some x-braces, the flex/twist is only really eliminated/solved by having some sort of reinforcing linkage. Good examples of this are the Yeti and Foes bikes, where they have a reinforcing linkage on the AS-X and pretty much the entire Foes lineup. This often doesn't affect the rate of the shock at all, so it's not serving the same purpose as a "linkage" on the bikes I described earlier, but it is serving to eliminate a big drawback of the single-pivot (monopivot) type design, which is the flex of the rear triangle. This leads to poor suspension as the rear end binds and bucks you more on off-camber impacts, as well as reduces your control.

Once you have a linkage in there or a bike with seatstays and chainstays, you eliminate the ability of the rear end to act as a lever (to a large extent) and "twist" the rear end on the pivot mast.


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## 4JawChuck (Dec 1, 2008)

Jayem said:


> The thing is that with a single-pivot bike like your titus locomoto, or a heckler, super 8, etc- the entire rear swingarm can act as a lever for any off-camber impacts. This causes the rear triangle to "twist", and although you can do things like add huge pivots and some x-braces, the flex/twist is only really eliminated/solved by having some sort of reinforcing linkage. Good examples of this are the Yeti and Foes bikes, where they have a reinforcing linkage on the AS-X and pretty much the entire Foes lineup. This often doesn't affect the rate of the shock at all, so it's not serving the same purpose as a "linkage" on the bikes I described earlier, but it is serving to eliminate a big drawback of the single-pivot (monopivot) type design, which is the flex of the rear triangle. This leads to poor suspension as the rear end binds and bucks you more on off-camber impacts, as well as reduces your control.
> 
> Once you have a linkage in there or a bike with seatstays and chainstays, you eliminate the ability of the rear end to act as a lever (to a large extent) and "twist" the rear end on the pivot mast.


Obviously you have never seen a Loco Moto rear triangle, the shock linkage needs no reinforcment with linkages because the rear triangle is mounted by a gigantic chunk of machined aluminum. I have yet to see a XC bike rear triangle as stiff as this bikes...thats why I bought it.

The rear triangle is one welded structure with built in reinforcments, it doesn't twist as much as multiple linkage types that rely on small linkages and bearing pivots which have inherent play beacause of the multiple bearing interfaces. The downside is a set of rear swingarm bearings last me about two years before the play at the bearing becomes noticable when I ride.

There is no advantage to having multiple pivot locations from a rigidity point of view. There are many downsides to that design however. Simple is better thats why DH bikes and Freeride bikes use the single pivot design more frequently...its stiffer and the weight is lower.

I think the biggest problem is magazines that make VPP bikes out to be the second coming of Jesus, with a good shock a single pivot can be just as good and superior in many ways. The only advantage a VPP bike has is its inherent isolation of pedalling forces from rider input...thats it...no other reason.

In XC where rigidity is often traded for weight VPP is successful and has its place, when your bangin down some rock garden at warp 9 all those linkages (unless they are new) add flex and instability to the rear triangle.

All you have to do is look at offroad buggy racing to see why they use single pivots designs for rear suspension, its tough, simple and easy to spring due to rising rate design in the linkage.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

4JawChuck said:


> Obviously you have never seen a Loco Moto rear triangle, the shock linkage needs no reinforcment with linkages because the rear triangle is mounted by a gigantic chunk of machined aluminum. I have yet to see a XC bike rear triangle as stiff as this bikes...thats why I bought it.
> 
> The rear triangle is one welded structure with built in reinforcments, it doesn't twist as much as multiple linkage types that rely on small linkages and bearing pivots which have inherent play beacause of the multiple bearing interfaces. The downside is a set of rear swingarm bearings last me about two years before the play at the bearing becomes noticable when I ride.
> 
> ...


Why do you keep talking about VPP? It's only one type of multi-linkage bike, and not every multi-linkage bike has had pivot problems and has the same characteristics as VPP, just as not every single-pivot bike has the elevated-swingarm style with no reinforcing link.

The issue with some monopivot bikes is when they have the general arrangement of a fairly high main pivot and elevated chainstays/swingarm. This allows an area that I refer to as the "pivot mast" to be twisted by off-camber impacts. This is where it happens, and you can make 30mm or 40mm pivot, and you'd still have this problem due to the length of the swingarm stays/arms and the fact that it's a huge lever arm that allows a huge twisting-moment to be imposed.


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## Pete-G (May 5, 2006)

I think its down to personal choice, every system has pros and cons. I ride both, a Heckler and a VP-Free, both great bikes. One thing thats obvious is the lack of feedback on the VPP compared to the SP Heckler.
Worth remembering though that Fabien Barel's Kona WC bike (linkage driven single pivot) had a brake link on it, but it was setup to introduce a small amount of squat. This meant with a quick dab of the rear brake he could preload the suspension just before a technical section and go light or on entry to a corner and fire through.


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## Freerydejunky (Sep 21, 2006)

seanzombie1336 said:


> Race you to the bottom...
> 
> lose
> 
> Go back to the commuting forum.


Have you spent any time DH'ing a hardtail? 
If you have, you wouldnt be saying that.

Hardtails are twice as much fun as a squishy. It pained me to see mine go.


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## seanzombie1336 (Jun 28, 2008)

motormonkeyr6 said:


> Have you spent any time DH'ing a hardtail?
> If you have, you wouldnt be saying that.
> 
> Hardtails are twice as much fun as a squishy. It pained me to see mine go.


I said NOTHING about fun. I said I'll race you to the bottom.

You may have fun on a hardtail. Others may not.

DH is largely associated with racing. You do not race downhill on a hardtail. I ride full suspension to proceed downhill quickly.


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## .Danno. (Jun 18, 2005)

Pete-G said:


> Worth remembering though that Fabien Barel's Kona WC bike (linkage driven single pivot) had a brake link on it, but it was setup to introduce a small amount of squat.


What's interesting about Fabien's Kona was that he had the floater set up to produce more squat than the bike would have had without the floater. He put the floating brake on to increase the squat.

I'm sure his motivation was to set it up that way so he could jam on full brakes just before the corners and get by with minimal brake dive even if the ride was a little rougher. True neutral (parallel floater, or instant center way forward) bikes suffer a lot of brake dive or forward rotation.


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## DHidiot (Aug 5, 2004)

Priorities, from highest to lowest:

1) Geometry
2) Tires
3) Braking power
3) Weight distribution
4) Suspension balance
5) Suspension action


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

DHidiot said:


> Priorities, from highest to lowest:
> 
> 1) Geometry
> 2) Tires
> ...


I don't think anybody has EVER summed up my feelings on mountain bikes as succinctly as that.


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## ducktape (May 21, 2007)

DHidiot said:


> Priorities, from highest to lowest:
> 
> 1) Geometry
> 2) Tires
> ...


Nice! :thumbsup:


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## jakomonster (Jun 20, 2006)

.Danno. said:


> What's interesting about Fabien's Kona was that he had the floater set up to produce more squat than the bike would have had without the floater. He put the floating brake on to increase the squat.
> 
> I'm sure his motivation was to set it up that way so he could jam on full brakes just before the corners and get by with minimal brake dive even if the ride was a little rougher. True neutral (parallel floater, or instant center way forward) bikes suffer a lot of brake dive or forward rotation.


Gracia did the same thing with the brake link on the Judge. He was testing an adjustable brake link and liked it best when it made the back end squat more when he hit the rear brake.


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

I think a lot of the flak that single pivots get is due to companies that don't have a good design to begin with and therefore any negative characteristics of the suspension design are amplified. I've owned a few single pivots in my day and have loved them and hated them. Although a tad heavy (dare I say piggish) my Balfa bb7 was the best dh bike that I've thrown a leg over, period. And this is coming from a guy that has the opportunity to ride quite a few designs including maestro, vpp, dw link, four bar, blah blah blah. It had a high pivot location and had a chain pulley right at the pivot to minimize pedal induced bob. While it didn't completely eliminate it, the bike did accelerate like a rocketship when pedaled down a hill, and the expanding wheelbase and slight squat attributed to single pivot designs made this bike corner like nothing I've ever felt, even to this day. I don't care what anyones opinion is on single pivots, that bike was the cat's pajamas and the suspension action was simply incredible. Tis a real shame that they're no longer around and that the "new" company Appalache has a very questionable future. Otherwise I'd sell my Demo in a heartbeat and pick up a Appalache Real.

But on the other hand I also had a Banshee Chaparral... that thing was an absolute beast, had terrible geometry, wasn't efficient on the climbs or the descents, and the rear end felt like dog poop when I braked hard. Just an absolutely terrible bike... but then again it was pretty much meant to huck and not do much else.

I did have a happy medium with a Transition Gran Mal, a linkage driven single pivot. Even in full 8 inch mode it climbed remarkably well as long as I had a shock with a pedal platform. It descended very well, my only real gripe was that it felt too tall in some situations (more like a FR/huck bike) and I wanted more of a dh feel.


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## verticult (Jan 18, 2005)

location, location, location.


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## Pete-G (May 5, 2006)

DHidiot said:


> Priorities, from highest to lowest:
> 
> 1) Geometry
> 2) Tires
> ...


Absolutely spot on!


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## solamanda (Dec 30, 2005)

DHidiot said:


> Priorities, from highest to lowest:
> 
> 1) Geometry
> 2) Tires
> ...


Well put but however much I like powerful brakes, I'd put them lower down that list.

I've ridden a variety of suspension systems and hardtails on dh tracks all over europe. This summer I spent a season touring around riding some of the hardest terrain there is on offer.

I rode my hardtail on some occasions, to get a balance to my riding skills. When riding with others of a similar speed, I was able to guage that my speed on any specific section on a hardtail was pretty dam close to my dh bike.

However, if I rode my hardtail on my own I felt as though it was really slow, as I was being bumped about so much and sliding all over the place. But once I realised my actual speed was similar to a full blown dh bike, it hit me. Speed on a mtb is all about perception. Being rattled about by the rear end effects perception alot and is nothing to do with performance.

This combined with years of experiance riding VPP's, FSR's and single pivots, I am convinced it doesn't effect speed, just comfort. Geometry matters more.


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## unclekittykiller (Mar 1, 2006)

solamanda said:


> Being rattled about by the rear end effects perception alot and is nothing to do with performance.


 if this were even slightly true they wouldn't bother making FS bikes. rear susp. has EVERYTHING to do with peformance. if you were really as experienced as you say you are then you would know that.


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## solamanda (Dec 30, 2005)

For most people the difference in performance is minimal. In the UK, DH race times only differ by a few seconds between riders on hardtails or full suspension bikes, (excluding pro category).

The difference in speed between a hardtail and FS bike is small. The difference between FS bike designs is even smaller. I can understand people preferring one system to another, as it feels nicer, but don't be fooled into thinking it will make you faster. The biggest factor is the rider, not the bike.



unclekittykiller said:


> if this were even slightly true they wouldn't bother making FS bikes. rear susp. has EVERYTHING to do with peformance.


No, FS bikes and their different and 'new' designs exist to get people to upgrade their existing bikes. If suspension and frame designs didn't change people wouldn't feel the need to upgrade.

I'll agree rear suspension has everything to do with comfort. I for one can't ride for extended periods of time on a hardtail as it's painful, a FS bike allows me to ride hard for longer.


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## unclekittykiller (Mar 1, 2006)

while its true FS bikes are more comfortable, the rear suspension is there for PERFORMANCE. they are little things called 'traction' and 'momentum'. without RS, you don't have nearly the traction you do with RS nor the momentum. yeah you can take any bike and point it downhill and you'll get to the bottom fast. but like you said, the diff between winning and losing is only a few sec. thats what you get with RS.


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## ducktape (May 21, 2007)

Having gone from a HT to a single pivot dually, I can tell you I am faster on the dually. Yes it's not just due to having rear suspension, I think the bike geometry counts for a lot, I corner better (don't feel like I'm going to overshoot and hit the tree) and well the clock says I'm getting down to the bottom at least 20sec faster. BTW it's not a rough track either, pretty short and easy trail with a few bermed corners and small jumps.
What would be interesting is comparing a HT and a FS that had the exact same geo, wheelbase etc.

But why has this turned into a HT vs Dually thread?

Single pivot took me a little getting used to (particularly coming off a ht), but now that I'm getting more accustomed to the bike I'm really loving it.


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## yellowpasta2000 (Nov 22, 2008)

motormonkeyr6 said:


> Have you spent any time DH'ing a hardtail?
> If you have, you wouldnt be saying that.
> 
> Hardtails are twice as much fun as a squishy. It pained me to see mine go.


lol all i have is a hardtail n used it 4 a downhill corse n i would prefer a full suspension!!!


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

unclekittykiller said:


> while its true FS bikes are more comfortable, the rear suspension is there for PERFORMANCE. they are little things called 'traction' and 'momentum'. without RS, you don't have nearly the traction you do with RS nor the momentum. yeah you can take any bike and point it downhill and you'll get to the bottom fast. but like you said, the diff between winning and losing is only a few sec. thats what you get with RS.


You know I've got a friend that rides a hardtail that would definately make you change your mind about which is better and/or faster. He on his clapped out v-brake and 60mm fork equipped hatdtail has no problem keeping up with (and in many cases overtaking) guys that regularly race Jr. Pro on their Glory's, Commencal's etc. It really is ALL about rider skill. Gee didn't win world's because he was on his Commencal, he won because he was the better rider that day.

Sometimes simpler is better eh?


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

DHidiot said:


> Priorities, from highest to lowest:
> 
> 1) Geometry
> 2) Tires
> ...


I think I'd go that way. I've been riding my 6inch with a spongy front brake and doing just fine...


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## ducktape (May 21, 2007)

his dudeness said:


> You know I've got a friend that rides a hardtail that would definately make you change your mind about which is better and/or faster. He on his clapped out v-brake and 60mm fork equipped hatdtail has no problem keeping up with (and in many cases overtaking) guys that regularly race Jr. Pro on their Glory's, Commencal's etc. It really is ALL about rider skill. Gee didn't win world's because he was on his Commencal, he won because he was the better rider that day.
> 
> Sometimes simpler is better eh?


Well then it would be easy to prove / disprove the theory, put him on a high end dually and I bet he would be even faster / better (providing he's had time to get used to the new bike of course).

But yes I know what you mean, if a rider is going to suck they will suck no matter how much they spend on their bike and what sort of suspension they have. You can't buy talent.


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## unclekittykiller (Mar 1, 2006)

his dudeness said:


> You know I've got a friend that rides a hardtail that would definately make you change your mind about which is better and/or faster. He on his clapped out v-brake and 60mm fork equipped hatdtail has no problem keeping up with (and in many cases overtaking) guys that regularly race Jr. Pro on their Glory's, Commencal's etc. It really is ALL about rider skill. Gee didn't win world's because he was on his Commencal, he won because he was the better rider that day.
> 
> Sometimes simpler is better eh?


no not all all. just because you have a fast friend doesn't change a damn thing. like ducktape said, he would be even faster on a dually. this isn't a theory dude, its a FACT. there is nothing to argue here. any of you who think that a HT is faster than a FS, try taking a physics class and then maybe you'd understand. that is assuming you're smart enough to pass. besides dudeness, your post doesn't even make sense. your trying to prove to me that HTs are faster and then you say it's all about rider skill. well which is it the rider or the bike? you know what, don't even answer that, cause either answer will be wrong.


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## Raptordude (Mar 30, 2004)

DHidiot said:


> Priorities, from highest to lowest:
> 
> 1) Geometry
> 2) Tires
> ...


You sir, are incorrect. Order as of Pink Bike goes:

1) What Pro Rides Your Bike
2) Paint Job
3) Graphics and/or Logos
4) Incorrect Sizing
5) How many responses you get on Pinkbike on your new ride.


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## Speedwa (Oct 30, 2005)

Raptordude said:


> You sir, are incorrect. Order as of Pink Bike goes:
> 
> 1) What Pro Rides Your Bike
> 2) Paint Job
> ...


Bingo!


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## ducktape (May 21, 2007)

Raptordude said:


> You sir, are incorrect. Order as of Pink Bike goes:
> 
> 1) What Pro Rides Your Bike
> 2) Paint Job
> ...


:madman: Oh damn I knew I should have left all those stickers on - does the helmet count for "cool" factor?


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## solamanda (Dec 30, 2005)

unclekittykiller said:


> no not all all. just because you have a fast friend doesn't change a damn thing. like ducktape said, he would be even faster on a dually. this isn't a theory dude, its a FACT. there is nothing to argue here. any of you who think that a HT is faster than a FS, try taking a physics class and then maybe you'd understand. that is assuming you're smart enough to pass. besides dudeness, your post doesn't even make sense. your trying to prove to me that HTs are faster and then you say it's all about rider skill. well which is it the rider or the bike? you know what, don't even answer that, cause either answer will be wrong.


I don't think anyone is trying to state hardtails are faster, but the fact is MOST full suspension riders don't ride their bikes as fast as really skilled rider can on a hardtail. Hence the whole 'which suspension system is better' argument is irrelevant. If pro riders can be at the top of their game and winning world cups on single pivots, why do we need anything different?

There are so many other factors that effect performance over and above linkages. While multi pivot riders are throwing away money replacing bearings, I can spend the money on newer tyres. I know which makes a bigger difference.


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## ducktape (May 21, 2007)

solamanda said:


> I don't think anyone is trying to state hardtails are faster, but the fact is MOST full suspension riders don't ride their bikes as fast as really skilled rider can on a hardtail. Hence the whole 'which suspension system is better' argument is irrelevant.


Good point, I probably took his statement the wrong way somewhat. Although I wouldn't say the which suspension system is better argument is irrelevant, I think it's a very interesting topic but one unlikely to get any clear cut answers.



> If pro riders can be at the top of their game and winning world cups on single pivots, why do we need anything different?


Why not? Just because something works really well doesn't mean we shouldn't innovate and try new things in the hope of finding something even better (this applies to things other than bikes obviously). Can you improve on perfection? Well I can't think of anything that is perfect!



> There are so many other factors that effect performance over and above linkages. While multi pivot riders are throwing away money replacing bearings, I can spend the money on newer tyres. I know which makes a bigger difference.


I also ride a single pivot but I would tend to think that those who ride linkage bikes would think the cost of bearings or such extra costs for owning that sort of bike would be well worth any advantages they see in having purchased it in the first place.
Everyone is different and wants to achieve different things from riding, so I think it's great to have the choices out there.

I mean how boring would it be if all the pro riders were riding Orange 224's! Can you imagine it? Actia;;u I was thinking that would never be the case it would probably be different versions of the single pivot out there. And I geuss a novice in the sport would think that of all the linkage bikes out there - just different looking versons of the same thing!

In the end it doesn't matter too much to those who know what they want to ride and why, but when you have all the marketing as well, it can be confusing for some people especially those new in the sport.


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## redspotff (Dec 5, 2005)

solamanda said:


> I don't think anyone is trying to state hardtails are faster, but the fact is MOST full suspension riders don't ride their bikes as fast as really skilled rider can on a hardtail. .


So wait. Let me get this straight. You are a saying a "really skilled"rider will actually be faster than MOST (or maybe your average) rider? With input like that all my questions are answered. A skilled rider is faster than a non skilled rider. What a revelation. I will tape a 100 dollar bill to my seat get on my FS rig and hit the DH. Any HT rider that thinks he will be faster can go ahead and grab it as he goes on by. You put the same rider on an HT then on a FS, which bike is going to have a better time? :madman: :madman:

As far as the linkage debate, lets have everyone that has not ridden the actual linkages they are talking about ( a parking lot tryst does not count) take 2 steps back and shut the f up. You might learn something .


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## mrpercussive (Apr 4, 2006)

redspotff said:


> So wait. Let me get this straight. You are a saying a "really skilled"rider will actually be faster than MOST (or maybe your average) rider? With input like that all my questions are answered. A skilled rider is faster than a non skilled rider. What a revelation. I will tape a 100 dollar bill to my seat get on my FS rig and hit the DH. Any HT rider that thinks he will be faster can go ahead and grab it as he goes on by. You put the same rider on an HT then on a FS, which bike is going to have a better time? :madman: :madman:
> 
> As far as the linkage debate, lets have everyone that has not ridden the actual linkages they are talking about ( a parking lot tryst does not count) take 2 steps back and shut the f up. You might learn something .


i'm actually with solumanda here... you might lose that bill of yours if you're not careful dude...


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## 317000 (Mar 2, 2007)

Wow, are we really going to discuss this again? At the end of the day, all suspension designs make the wheel go up and down. Anything beyond that is personal preference.


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## redspotff (Dec 5, 2005)

mrpercussive said:


> i'm actually with solumanda here... you might lose that bill of yours if you're not careful dude...


 So you agree a skilled rider on a HT is faster than an unskilled or average rider on a FS?
That is obvious, it is hard to read sarcasm (which much was intended) and I can ride alot better than I can write. I ride a HT and an FS and totally agree you will learn more hauling a$$ on a ht than just charging down a trail on an FS rig. Hardtails WILL make you a better rider. To say a skilled HT rider CAN be faster than an average guy on a squishbike is stating the obvious. To use that as an arguement for HT vs FS is lame. My point is if you take your HT to a DH and time yourself, you will be slower than on a Full suspension rig. I think anyone that is going to argue that has not spent time on both. This thread is on pivot styles, for someone to say any given rider can go just as fast on the downhill on a hardtail is ridiculous. I am not saying you cant go fast on a hardtail. I think my money safe right where it is, on my seat. The seat on my FS.:thumbsup:


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## doodooboi (Dec 29, 2006)

dowst said:


> At the end of the day, all suspension designs make the wheel go up and down. Anything beyond that is personal preference.


True to an extent. It's just how the design of the bike will determine how efficient the wheel goes up and down is the real question of single pivot vs. multi. 

I have gone from a kingfisher SP (Gary F.) bike to a canfield Jedi (PL) and let me tell you there is a giant difference in the both rides. There are lines that I can take with the jedi that i just can take as fast or as smooth with the single pivot bike. 'granted I could learn to ride the single pivot through those sections to go alot faster but just imagine that fact that a bike that can be efficient in going through those sections and you improve on your skills to go through it alot more faster is just going to make you 2x as fast as before! This just my personal expericence and opinion. :thumbsup:

I love my parallel link of a jedi which has a rearward wheel path that goes over square hits with great efficiency which prevents the rear to hang up on the bigger hits through rock gardens!!! Now for my single pivot bike it takes alot more skill which in the long run will use up more energy, mind power to do the same to make that bike as smoothe as the other. Which leaves more energy to go faster with the multi linkages!


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## P-townDave (Oct 12, 2006)

Dude,

Canfield Jedi vs Fisher anything? Like saying my Ferarri was faster than my Mustang because one's a v-12 and the other a v-8. No, it's faster cause it's just badass and faster! Your Canfield feels better than your Fisher for sooo many reasons!

BTW - Glad you like it, pretty sick, huh? Thing stays GLUED to the ground. Plus you bought a great product from a couple of great guys (and riders).


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## doodooboi (Dec 29, 2006)

P-townDave said:


> Dude,
> 
> Canfield Jedi vs Fisher anything? Like saying my Ferarri was faster than my Mustang because one's a v-12 and the other a v-8. No, it's faster cause it's just badass and faster! Your Canfield feels better than your Fisher for sooo many reasons!
> 
> BTW - Glad you like it, pretty sick, huh? Thing stays GLUED to the ground. Plus you bought a great product from a couple of great guys (and riders).


Thanks! And yes it's truly glued to the ground! 

Well I know the Kingfisher is not a great repensentation of a single pivot, still it's the text book of a single pivot and that is what this thread is about. I know the orange and the morewood single pivot are far more superior to the king but those are still single pivot but with the better location for that pivot! I can only ASSUME that those may ride pretty similar to a basic single pivot with the difficulty of big hits from those nasty square hits! Even though one of the guys I rode with a few days ago was on a morewood I can see how he is working that bike alot more than I had to on my jedi! And yes he is faster than me but not by much cause I am still trying to get use to the speed the Jedi can pick up and I am not use to going that fast! But soon I will!:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

F-it, go replace the springs on your car with solid blocks of metal. You'd probably be nearly as fast to work and wherever it is you go, so I'm sure it doesn't really make much of a difference.





On the other hand, I'll take all the help I can get. There are other important things as specified above, but this foolishness about hardtails is just rediculous.


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## doodooboi (Dec 29, 2006)

Jayem said:


> F-it, go replace the springs on your car with solid blocks of metal. You'd probably be nearly as fast to work and wherever it is you go, so I'm sure it doesn't really make much of a difference.
> 
> On the other hand, I'll take all the help I can get. There are other important things as specified above, but this foolishness about hardtails is just rediculous.




Just remember a simple single pivot is alot different from a linkage driven single pivot which in your case does alot with the way your highline performs. And the first great improvement is in the pedaling. Pedaling a simple single pivot takes alot of timing on the riders part as he goes down the trail.


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

unclekittykiller said:


> no not all all.* just because you have a fast friend doesn't change a damn thing. like ducktape said, he would be even faster on a dually.* this isn't a theory dude, its a FACT.* there is nothing to argue here.* any of you who think that a HT is faster than a FS, try taking a physics class and then maybe you'd understand.* that is assuming you're smart enough to pass.* besides dudeness, your post doesn't even make sense.* your trying to prove to me that HTs are faster and then you say it's all about rider skill.* well which is it the rider or the bike?* you know what, don't even answer that, cause either answer will be wrong.


* Well seeing as he's been riding for about 16 years and has ridden everything from bmx to xc hardtails to freeride hardtails to xc fs to freeride fs to dh fs... and the fact that he still CHOOSES to ride on a hardtail because he's faster on it proves quite a lot to me. Take a physics class? Come on man, I earned my college degree quite a long time ago. I've taken several and have passed them all without any trouble. I'm not necessarily trying to prove that HT's are faster, I was just taking a jab at the statement that you made that a fs was fundamentally faster than a HT (which is completely untrue)... It IS all about the rider buckroo. Either answer will be wrong huh? Well just to disprove that lets take Mr. Atherton and put him on a HT and you can race him on whatever FS you wish, I'll bet you that he'll still win. Better yet you and I can meet at ANY trailhead that has a considerable climb. I'll be on a hardtail and you can be on whatever fs bike you want, and we'll see who hits the bottom of the trail first after a full loop. Then we can both do it on fs bikes and see what happens again. Then we can do it yet again with me on a fully rigid coclocross bike and see what happens. I ride 100-200 miles a week and have been riding for about 16 years, rider skill and fitness will ALWAYS win out over a frame design regardless of whatever you may think. It's not about the bike, it never was and never will be. Peaty would be an animal on whatever frame he's paid to ride, the same is true for Hill, Minnar, Kovarik, The Athertons, name your rider. To say that a fs frame is superior to a HT is ridiculous, it's just a different type of frame for a different type of rider. But it IS all about the rider. Unless of course you can prove me wrong with all of your apparent vast knowledge of physics or your super duper quicktastic riding skills... because that's apparently what it's come down to right?

fawking kids


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## cyrix (Jan 29, 2008)

his dudeness said:


> * Well seeing as he's been riding for about 16 years and has ridden everything from bmx to xc hardtails to freeride hardtails to xc fs to freeride fs to dh fs... and the fact that he still CHOOSES to ride on a hardtail because he's faster on it proves quite a lot to me. Take a physics class? Come on man, I earned my college degree quite a long time ago. I've taken several and have passed them all without any trouble. I'm not necessarily trying to prove that HT's are faster, I was just taking a jab at the statement that you made that a fs was fundamentally faster than a HT (which is completely untrue)... It IS all about the rider buckroo. Either answer will be wrong huh? Well just to disprove that lets take Mr. Atherton and put him on a HT and you can race him on whatever FS you wish, I'll bet you that he'll still win. Better yet you and I can meet at ANY trailhead that has a considerable climb. I'll be on a hardtail and you can be on whatever fs bike you want, and we'll see who hits the bottom of the trail first after a full loop. Then we can both do it on fs bikes and see what happens again. Then we can do it yet again with me on a fully rigid coclocross bike and see what happens. I ride 100-200 miles a week and have been riding for about 16 years, rider skill and fitness will ALWAYS win out over a frame design regardless of whatever you may think. It's not about the bike, it never was and never will be. Peaty would be an animal on whatever frame he's paid to ride, the same is true for Hill, Minnar, Kovarik, The Athertons, name your rider. To say that a fs frame is superior to a HT is ridiculous, it's just a different type of frame for a different type of rider. But it IS all about the rider. Unless of course you can prove me wrong with all of your apparent vast knowledge of physics or your super duper quicktastic riding skills... because that's apparently what it's come down to right?
> 
> fawking kids


At the end of the day that's his and yours own anecdotal evidence and nothing more (and opinion of course.) End of discussion on either side of the fence.

I like riding both setups. So can we all at least agree upon the time tested adage: To each his own. Seriously that's all it boils down to. Skill and hardware are only a part of the equation. There are limitless factors involved beyond that which will change times, speed, balls, rainbows, and ducks.

And really....fawking kids? Come on now.....now you're just being an angry "get off my lawn" type and destroying any semblance of credibility for your side of the argument.

EDIT: Oh...and... You said it's about the rider but then choose to ridicule the other posters skill set as not being of any significance? The rider can be represented by their skill set. So why contradict yourself?


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## bxxer rider (Jun 7, 2008)

solamanda said:


> I don't think anyone is trying to state hardtails are faster, but the fact is MOST full suspension riders don't ride their bikes as fast as really skilled rider can on a hardtail. Hence the whole 'which suspension system is better' argument is irrelevant. If pro riders can be at the top of their game and winning world cups on single pivots, why do we need anything different?
> 
> There are so many other factors that effect performance over and above linkages. While multi pivot riders are throwing away money replacing bearings, I can spend the money on newer tyres. I know which makes a bigger difference.


not all races could be done on a straight forward SP as some trails have big jumps and large drops. the problem with the straight forward SP is the ratio drops towards the end of its stroke, so linkage induced SP would be much better as the link can change the ratio change to our advantage. (which orange is already working on, one of their prototype linkage DH bikes was raced at a forest of dean race here in the uk the the weekend)

hopefully that makes sense and you all take me seriously for once


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## combatkimura (Jul 17, 2007)

bxxer rider said:


> not all races could be done on a straight forward SP as some trails have big jumps and large drops. the problem with the straight forward SP is the ratio drops towards the end of its stroke, so linkage induced SP would be much better as the link can change the ratio change to our advantage. (which orange is already working on, one of their prototype linkage DH bikes was raced at a forest of dean race here in the uk the the weekend)
> 
> hopefully that makes sense and you all take me seriously for once


You're correct about the linkage being able to manipulate the lev ratio. Most modern shocks can be tuned to ramp up at the end giving similar results though.


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## ducktape (May 21, 2007)

bxxer rider said:


> not all races could be done on a straight forward SP as some trails have big jumps and large drops. the problem with the straight forward SP is the ratio drops towards the end of its stroke, so linkage induced SP would be much better as the link can change the ratio change to our advantage. (which orange is already working on, one of their prototype linkage DH bikes was raced at a forest of dean race here in the uk the the weekend)
> 
> hopefully that makes sense and you all take me seriously for once


You mean there's more than one?
Only proto I've seen piccies of is this...


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## combatkimura (Jul 17, 2007)

I wish they would modernize the look of their swingarm. That linkage looks good and that's a nice long shock too.


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## Sov (Nov 4, 2005)

his dudeness said:


> ...I'm not necessarily trying to prove that HT's are faster, I was just taking a jab at the statement that you made that a fs was fundamentally faster than a HT (which is completely untrue)... It IS all about the rider buckroo. Either answer will be wrong huh? Well just to disprove that lets take Mr. Atherton and put him on a HT and you can race him on whatever FS you wish, I'll bet you that he'll still win...


That would only prove that Mr. Atherton is a better rider than Mr. unclekittykiller. Which is fair enough, given the whole world champion thing and all. However, put Mr. Atherton on a hardtail and time him down a dh track. Then time him on a FS DH bike down the same hill. He'll be faster on the dually. Why? Because FS bikes are fundamentally faster than a hardtail for downhilling.

Yes, it's mostly all about the rider but a rider will always be faster down a proper downhill course on a DH specific dually than a hardtail that has been set up for DHing. I can't believe you're even arguing about this...


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## bxxer rider (Jun 7, 2008)

ducktape said:


> You mean there's more than one?
> Only proto I've seen piccies of is this...


yeh i think there is, or the one i saw had a diffrent spec on it for testing as it had boxxers i think and white rims, i tihnk i could be wrong, but they were testing the idea out in the mini downhill forest of dean race

EDIT: i was wrong about there being another with a diffrent spec or its another with the same spec or just the same bike. here is a link to a mini downhill fod vid, if you pause at 16.8 you get a good picture of it.


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## bxxer rider (Jun 7, 2008)

combatkimura said:


> You're correct about the linkage being able to manipulate the lev ratio. Most modern shocks can be tuned to ramp up at the end giving similar results though.


yeah, leverage ratio and shock dampening ramping up allows bender to live for now lol


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## bxxer rider (Jun 7, 2008)

combatkimura said:


> I wish they would modernize the look of their swingarm. That linkage looks good and that's a nice long shock too.


if you are on about the orange then i would expect to have 8-10" rear travel from a 3" shock, correct me if im wrong 

btw i love the look of orange swinging arms


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## mrpercussive (Apr 4, 2006)

bxxer rider said:


> not all races could be done on a straight forward SP as some trails have big jumps and large drops. the problem with the straight forward SP is the ratio drops towards the end of its stroke, so linkage induced SP would be much better as the link can change the ratio change to our advantage. (which orange is already working on, one of their prototype linkage DH bikes was raced at a forest of dean race here in the uk the the weekend)
> 
> hopefully that makes sense and you all take me seriously for once


all about pivot placement.........


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## bxxer rider (Jun 7, 2008)

mrpercussive said:


> all about pivot placement.........


true true, but only way i can think of is would make pedalling performance suffer.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Single pivots are ghey.


















Not.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

Lets all just agree here - all single pivots function exactly the same, and all linkage driven bikes function the same as all other linkage driven bikes. 

instant centers, anti-rise, pedal kickback, rates, wheelpaths, COG will be the same for every single pivot, and the same for every linkage bike. 

When I originally looked at this thread, I thought to myself, wow, this is going to be great.

It didn't disappoint. 

Mother of God. 99% of the people who have entered this thread are dumber then toast.


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## buckoW (Feb 7, 2007)

Hardtails slow down very very well in the steeps.


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## nostrangertodanger (Feb 15, 2008)

i own haro x-6 single pivot with dhx 5 on it. bike rips you just need to adjust your style to it... brakes on early before ruff stuff then release susp. is very supple as long as your not pedalling or braking. bikes are well balanced for jumping dirties. I used to be a non believer too as far as floater brake only if it was my dh rig. no one seem to mention the quiet ride a single provides


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## flOw dOwn (Feb 19, 2008)

DaggerMadd said:


> Why, why do you guys call brake-induced suspension compression of single pivot bikes "brake jack"? It's called "brake squat". "Brake jack" is the opposite - brake-induced suspension decompression, it happens on most 4-bars but can't happen on any single-pivot. Sorry for being nerd


If brake-induced compression can occur on single pivots, then brake-induced decompression occurs right after that on the same bike as a reaction to the compression. Your suspension doesn't just compressed when you are on the brakes going over bumps. "Squat" may be the initial reaction of a single pivot to hard braking over a bump, but the recoil of the swingarm lever and the static wheel without another link to allow dynamic movement is what gets you in trouble and what I think people are trying to refer to as "brake jack". It makes the rear end feel like it's chattering over the ground or wanting to throw you up and forward, especially braking in steep chunky stuff or over braking bumps going into a turn after a fast section.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

flOw dOwn said:


> If brake-induced compression can occur on single pivots, then brake-induced decompression occurs right after that on the same bike as a reaction to the compression. Your suspension doesn't just compressed when you are on the brakes going over bumps. "Squat" may be the initial reaction of a single pivot to hard braking over a bump, but the recoil of the swingarm lever and the static wheel without another link to allow dynamic movement is what gets you in trouble and what I think people are trying to refer to as "brake jack". It makes the rear end feel like it's chattering over the ground or wanting to throw you up and forward, especially braking in steep chunky stuff or over braking bumps going into a turn after a fast section.


:madman:

I'm gonna double quote this for hilarity value



flOw dOwn said:


> but the recoil of the swingarm lever and the static wheel without another link to allow dynamic movement is what gets you in trouble and what I think people are trying to refer to as "brake jack"


You're like the evolution of boxxerider, you have no idea what the words mean, but they sound fancy and you think they make you look smart.

You're still just as wrong though.

edit: if you're actually curious on what the terms actually mean without the mumbo jumbo, i'd be happy to explain it in a PM or you can go look in the suspension forums and find several easy links to threads on what brake squat/brake jack are. I'm sorry for being mean, but that was ridiculous.


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## flOw dOwn (Feb 19, 2008)

William42 said:


> You're like the evolution of boxxerider, you have no idea what the words mean, but they sound fancy and you think they make you look smart.


I'm describing simple machines using engineering physics... bike companies didn't invent these terms. I'm not trying to sound smart buddy, just trying to describe what I feel on my single pivot compared to other suspension types. It is not the squatting motion into the suspension that is the problem with single pivots, it is the reaction to that squat. Newton's whole "equal and opposite reaction" thing. Just cause you don't understand what I'm saying and you read an article on suspension somewhere doesn't mean that I "have no idea what the words mean". If you are so smart and I'm so dumb why don't you explain how what I said is incorrect instead of just trying to ridicule and make yourself look cool. And I don't remember saying anything about changing the travel on a Boxxer, so don't compare me to your little cronies kid.


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## huntandride (Sep 29, 2007)

Is there a significant difference to the "linkage" style single pivots like the Commencal Supreme DHor 07 DHR's compared to the "big bar" type like the morewood izimu or ironhorse aniki?


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## primo661 (Jan 6, 2009)

Jayem said:


> Even Morewood has moved to a linkage-driven design, that should tell you something.


Morewood only went to a linkage in order to manipulate the leverage ratio curve, to make the bike much more progressive in the last 20% of travel, this allows you to run more sag(+-50%), improving traction. They still use pure single pivot on all their other bikes because they dont need the progessivity,


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## markw1970 (Oct 8, 2007)

Single pivot vs...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

primo661 said:


> Morewood only went to a linkage in order to manipulate the leverage ratio curve


Um..yeah, that's what I said.


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## primo661 (Jan 6, 2009)

sorry, i thought you meant something else


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## trailadvent (Jun 29, 2004)

SP was good enough to win the first rd of the NI cup!
https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=481819

UK rider Ben Cathro came down under beat our locals on our soil on a dirte SP Orange,

Sps have allot more left in tank yet

Its always been about he rider always will be about he rider, setup, confidence and all that chit! luck on the day!

Like Lance said its not about the bike 

90% at this level is in the head :thumbsup:
Orange SP, No 1 on the Day










Turner DHR Vaughan Woolhouse 1st Junior another top young kiwi grom up and coming!








Unknown racer same event








Not in link or Sp camp just saying don;t poo poo it top riders can ride goo bikes with good Geo good suspension setup an skills etc!

https://cuffo.co.nz/flowplayer/FlowPlayerDark.swf?config=%7BautoPlay%3Afalse%2CautoBuffering%3Afalse%2Cloop%3Afalse%2CinitialScale%3A%27fit%27%2CvideoFile%3A%27http%3A%2F%2Fcuffo%2Eco%2Enz%2Ffiles%2Fstorage%2F136%2F1937%2Ecsattachment%27%2CbaseURL%3A%27http%3A%2F%2Fcuffo%2Eco%2Enz%2Fflowplayer%27%2Cembedded%3Atrue%7D


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