# 7.9kg alloy full suss in large with discbrakes, inner tubes and bottleage



## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Copied from my G+ page:

Right guys . Video proof for all you skeptics out there . My math wasn't wrong and all my weights were/are correct . 7.9kg for a large alloy full suss with disc brakes . I will still try and shave more off but without compromising performance .

Note : Using Disturbed's Haunted song so hope no copyright issues there .

If any of you guys could do me a huge favour and try and find one that's lighter (in the same category of course ) I would appreciate it . 
Oh and let me know if the video link is working .

Cheers  !!!

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=Nmh5SHNlbTB2ck5hLVp3OGVYelJEbnNNcDVnQ2p3


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## Pezzer (Sep 25, 2015)

Nice job. I am just confused why you spend all the dough on the lightest WW parts yet don't spend $5 on a hanging scale, or on a food scale that weighs down to the hundreth/thousands of a gram when you are shaving off clear coats and what not... 

great work!


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Cheers man  !!! 

Tbh honest I just haven't got round to getting one . Also i haven't quite finished with this just yet .


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

karimian5 said:


> ... I will still try and shave more off but without compromising performance ...


Nice one, but I think you're already right into the "compromised performance" category with those super anemic furious freds. They don't look much bigger than CX tyres. My experiences with the Furious Fred's have been all bad (except as a lightweight fold-up emergency spare to take multi-day bike camping).


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I got the idea from Lightbikes.de as all the top end light bikes have this tyre .


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

I don't think lb.de has been much active in last 3-4 years

as you are building it for the scales, why not maxxlite 285 then?


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Never seen those . If I'm honest tyre choice has never been my strong point . I know all the technical details about types of rubber compounds, kevlar beads etc but nothing about grip choice .

I have noticed the site hasn't been updated n a while but it still quite inspirational . Even has the owner's bike of R2-bike.de is on there .


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## Dan-W (Nov 21, 2014)

> If any of you guys could do me a huge favour and try and find one that's lighter (in the same category of course ) I would appreciate it .


My Large Cannondale Scalpel I built for £3000 all in was lighter than this and it used normal components (eg Ralphs), no drilling, no exotica and it was all solid, proper MTB stuff.

A few people built Scalpels on WW around 6.8 so mine was a porker by comparison! Here's a 6.85 Scalpel that is probably most comparable to yours in terms of component choices. Bear in mind this was 5 years ago now and things have moved on. Most people use 29ers for a start :thumbsup: 26 is cheating 

Cannion Cannondale Scalpel 2011 - 6850g -15,10lbs - Weight Weenies

You have some great detail but miss the big picture with this bike (I mean that as a compliment!). Sure these are carbon examples but it is silly to be so specific in your niche when plenty of other builds can be so much cheaper and lighter and for all intents and purposes the same type of bike (XC 26er full sus).

P.S. Bathroom scales are amateur hour! Massively inaccurate!


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

The whole point to this was to build the lightest alloy MTB . I could get a small frame and put V-brakes on it and make it fully rigid and it would be lighter than any of those Scalpels . I could build a small hardtail and it would be lighter than any of those Scalpels . All capable off roaders too . 

The biggest challenge is to build a bike that has a metal frame rather than carbon and get it lighter than a carbon bike . All the examples I have seen are on medium frames . Even with 29" wheels it equates to my large alloy frame . My bike is still lighter than a lot of carbon bikes but my original question was to find an alloy bike lighter than mine in the same category if it's not too much trouble . I seriously need examples


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Another point is as cool as that bike is something doesn't seem right about the weight . All the components are roughly the same weight if not more than mine (except the wheelset - around 100grams lighter ) . His frame is around 700grams lighter than mine (carbon medium - go figure) . Also he has a front gearing too . 

Maybe I need to get those luggage scales !!!


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

There is not much of a difference between M and L in terms of weigh, at least there wasn't any for my flash as I had both frames. Same thing goes for scalpel.

We are linking you carbon versions simply because what you are asking is hard if not impossible to find. lb.i, lb.de, lb.il, starbike etc when they were active 4-5-6 years ago when it was popular to do ww for the scales and even back then everyone used carbon frames. You could even draw a pattern where cannondale/specialized/scott had lighter frames than they are nowadays and for example all tricked out 29" 2015 s-works HT is 7.6kg while my flash 2011 was 7.1kg. 

IMO alloy ww is a miss and while you will set an example, there just won't be any audience for it. Now if you were to do that with titanium frame, that would be a different story as it would be more unique and is something what people do when they get bored with carbon.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Furious Freds, 26" wheels, a fork without a damper (IIRC). 

While I appreciate the effort that went into this, I very seriously question the "result" for actual mountain biking.

I would not be able to ride that bike fast on my local terrain.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I hear what you're saying . It is true that carbon frames are in and alloy is out with a lot of the XC audience but if and only if I could wow people with a light alloy full sus then I've done my job . I hear a lot that alloy is on the rise again but I' not sure if that is just biased media . 

I wouldn't use titanium for the simple fact that it's heavier and less stiff than alloy . 

I would actually like to know the properties of the alloy used in the M5 as it feels a lot lighter than most alloy frames that i have dealt with . A bit like Scrub's metal matrix .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Well, this is a pretty impressive build regardless. I've also made my comment on the frame in other posts,  , but your innovative work with carbon is fun to watch.

Maybe we should initiate a Kickstarter campaign to get you a decent scale though.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Cheers man  !!! 

I will get a new scale .


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## Dan-W (Nov 21, 2014)

> The biggest challenge is to build a bike that has a metal frame rather than carbon and get it lighter than a carbon bike .


This makes no sense. Components weighing x plus frame weighing y will never be comparable to components x on frame z unless frames y and z weigh the same. You are basically just comparing frame weights and expecting the heavier framed bike to be lighter overall ????



> if and only if I could wow people with a light alloy full sus then I've done my job


You've thrown a ton of money and some nice tuning on a heavy old trail full sus frame. You've made a bike equal to the weight of the nice components on the heavy frame.

If you started with something like a Scandium Kona (Hei Hei?) it would be more sensible and I'm sure you could tune the bolts/ rockets/ etc to make the full package even when adding far more practical components instead of some of the show bike choices so far.



> I wouldn't use titanium for the simple fact that it's heavier and less stiff than alloy .


Not going get in an Engineering discussion again 



> All capable off roaders too .


:skep: Again, we've been there before and beg to differ :thumbsup:


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I beg to differ too . There are lots out there who go offroad on fully rigid bikes . It can be done with a bit of skill . 

You think titanium is lighter than alloy then ?!!! You think it doesn't flex ?!!!

Tell me what impractical parts are on the bike because as I know it is fully rideable .


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Sure, it's rideable. 

Just like I can ride a road bike or a unicycle in an XC race. Or I can enter a cyclocross bike in a DH race. I can pick my way up or down anything given enough time, really.

Unless you are a world class bike handler who weighs 50kg, you'd flat or crash more or less instantly with FFs here. Square edged rocks and slimy roots as far as the eye can see.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

26" is perfectly fine, Furious Freds seem to hold up well although i might be changing them and the fork works great without the damper .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Again you're opinion .


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

karimian5 said:


> Again you're opinion .


Then why do none of the Schwalbe sponsored XC racers run FFs?

Cannondale Factory Racing? Nope. Never.

Ghost Factory Team? Nope. Never.

Unior Tools? Nope. Never.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Their choice . A lot of the light bikes I see form the German sites have them . You seem to love following what others do . I do my own thing and it works for me and I get great results .


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I've used FFs a few years back, and must admit they are tough to live with, especially on the front. I will throw one on the rear under the right conditions, but I have since switched to Thunder Burts which are far better IMO. Still light, but not nearly as light as the FFs of course. I don't think Schwalbe is making them any longer, so the point is probably moot.

Another alternative that I used to ride is the Specialized Renegades with the S-Works casing. Surprisingly good, although difficult to mount tubeless given the paper-thin sidewalls.

In any event, none of these tires are mudders, so you'd need something else on those days anyway.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Very true . I must admit the tread does look very shallow to be very grippy . I might try the Maxxis instead .


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

karimian5 said:


> Their choice . A lot of the light bikes I see form the German sites have them . You seem to love following what others do . I do my own thing and it works for me and I get great results .


What results are those? Do you actually race?

Because I do. I'm pretty decent at it, too. And I take note of what other people do, and why it seems to work, or not work for them. I like going fast, and while having a "light" bike can be part of that, not falling down the mountain or repairing a flat every 10 minutes is also a significant part of that.

"Following others" is like noticing that Greg Lemond crushed everyone in a Tour time trial on aerobars, and then equipping your bike in the same way. "Doing my own thing" is akin to riding 19mm tubulars on 32 spoke wheels on a funny bike, when a modern TT bike (deep carbon front, disk rear, aerobars, 23mm clinchers) is at your disposal.


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## Dan-W (Nov 21, 2014)

This stuff might work for you but you will not get an Elite guy or gal to race your bike. Guaranteed. 

We've established before you have the odd nip around the park in London and that's fine. Not everyone can be crazy fast and I know I am certainbly not Le Duke level! If we ignore that and focus on pure lightest weight for having the odd bit of fun on then your bike could be a hell of a lot lighter with something like a Scalpel and still be the same type of bike (XC full sus).... and even manage to be lighter if for some reason you insist on sticking with alloy and ditch the heavy, trail frame by switching to a Hei Hei or similar at (2-2.1kg). That is pretty much the question you were asking and there's your answer. Turner Nitrous, Ghost RT, Extralie F1, Litespeed Sewanee all spring to mind as much lighter "metal" full sus frames


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

The 'odd nip around the park' is me testing the parts I make and the trails can be incredibly rough . 

Back to the bike - those frames could possibly be close with my frame now that I ditched the Brain Shock . I've read from some posts here that the medium is around 2.5kg and so that makes mine around 2.7kg ?!!! Anyway removing the Brain shok removed nearly 500grams from the frame . Adding the DT Swiss makes the frame 2.3kg (roughly). The bike with the other frame weight would then be around 7.7kg -so not really much in it .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Also the bike works for me . Thought that was the point . I'm not building it for anyone else :lol: !!!


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## Dan-W (Nov 21, 2014)

Pointless discussion without knowing how heavy what you already have is. Also, how much money has been spent chasing a few g's when you could very easily have somewhere from 200-500g's knocked off with a quick scout around ebay for one of the alternative frames or even more with a Scalpel or similar???? There's plenty of scope with your bike to go down your chosen route and improve....


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Well I'm going by what other posters have put on this site (and on the WW site) and I trust them . Anyway a Scalpel would be nice but in alloy not carbon .


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

I know that 2008 alu scalpel is ~1770g for the pure frame. Newer versions should be similar in weight.

Putting away tire choice, one thing I'm not fond of in your build is 3-bolt discs(IIRC). I'm not sure I would do that on my commuter let alone on FS when I go down the hill with it.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I ride what works for me .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I know that was a risk but the rear disc is 140mm and it works fine . I have the same setup on my other trail bike (although with a 160mm rotor) and it's held up so far . 

That frame weight is very light . I'll look into that . Cheers  !!!


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Okay I've emailed Spesh to get the official weight of the frame (if they can help me) so we'll see . Maybe I should change this to the lightest alloy Stumpy !!!


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## Dan-W (Nov 21, 2014)

Just weight the f*** thing. Spesh will give you a rough guide at best which will even then probably be at the optimistic end of the spectrum


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## doccoraje (Jan 12, 2004)

Dan-W said:


> Just weight the f*** thing.


On his bathroom scale??


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

---


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Okay I just found this and according to eliflap (with pic) the medium size alloy Scalpel with shock is 2.3kg so not really worth getting unless it's carbon in which case there is no point for me .

http://forums.mtbr.com/cannondale/frame-weight-alloy-scalpel-469056.html

Right so from what I can see another post stated the medium Stumpy alloy frame in medium was around 2.5kg . Now I'm putting that to the Brain Shock which weighs nearly 500grams which I stated before . You put a Fox shock on there and you reduce it by around 250grams which makes it lighter than the Cannondale .

I'm sorry but that isn't good enough to warrant the frame swap . I would be ruining my bike .

Also and i can't stress this enough - I love Specialized . Seriously am not going to be swapping frames that's for sure . Also don't know what kind of alloy Cannondale uses . At least the M5 has a good rep and is a very light alloy .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Oh and I'm not cheating by using 26" .In comparison I could say using a MEDIUM carbon frame is cheating  !!!


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Excuse the blurred picture . I have changed the saddle to the modified AX Lightness saddle again . I have also made a second attempt at the 24ct gold label and I have added some custom red Extralite grips (instead of boring black) . Bike is still under 8kg and even more custom  !!!


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

I don't get the point of the aluminum frame when you throw carbon fiber on almost every single component mounted to the frame. I really don't. If you wanted to prove that you could build a light bike without carbon fiber, then none of the components should've been carbon. 

You're bar and stem are carbon (and probably more expensive than your frame), so clearly you're not afraid of the structural integrity of the material. So what the hell is the motive for using a heavy frame just for the sake of it being aluminium?


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

The frame was nearly £1500 so not more than the bar and stem (although they are expensive too) .

I see so many carbon framed bikes being weighed and showing off how light they can be and it 's all the same . I love the new frames and I love all the new designs and effort people go to make their carbon bikes light but i always question how light you can get an alloy bike My initial plan was to just build up a bike with some bling parts and leave it at that . When I started looking more into the WW world and discovered what people were doing to their rides I was hooked .I;ve been working with carbon fibre (and metals) for a good few years and so stared making parts but also wanted to have some of the aftermarket parts you can get from overseas . 

So trawling through the WW site and lightbikes.de I discovered that nearly all bikes were carbon framed . So I thought well how about alloy ?!!! It's been around far longer than carbon in the bike world (and continues - in fact according to some surveys it is on the rise again) . It would be far more impressive to make a light bike from an alloy frame . Also would be different and stand out more . 

Okay I could strip the bike down and put it on a carbon frame and drop around 300 - 500 grams (the m5 alloy is a lot lighter than you think) but then all my efforts would be out the window . 

I 've had people tell me to not bother . I've even had people say to get a hardtail instead but they don't get it . I'm glad the majority of my audience do . To build a full sus with an alloy frame, disc brakes and bottlecage (also my cranks have the stainless steel axle not the titanium - it was on sale) and get it under 8kg is hard believe me . 

I've even had suggestion to get a lighter alloy frame . I've checked and they are all around the same as mine . It has been stated that the Stumpjumper frame is actually lighter than the Epic (at the time but don't quote me on that) .

Regarding the carbon parts if I crash I can always replace the part but damaging the frame means having to get a whole new frame which is basically a whole new bike in my opinion . I can't justify that . Carbon works great for components but I'm not sold on their strength in a collision . 

It was a tough job to get the bike to its state now and it's not over yet . I have some more things I want to experiment with . I could still drop another 100 grams by removing the second damper inside the fork and replace the rear shock with the new German A shock but then I would lose 100% adjustability which to me makes no sense . 

Still more work to do  !!!


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## Dan-W (Nov 21, 2014)

Crossmaxx, you made the mistake of trying to apply logic.

When you don't even know the weight of your current frame all other discussion about frame choice for a light build become pointless...

Hows the scale coming along?


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## MichaelV8V (Aug 16, 2014)

karimian5 said:


> ... It would be far more impressive to make a light bike from an alloy frame ...


I was trying to stay out of this discussion, but its just so frustrating.

The responses to this thread aren't suggesting that people find it impressive that you're working with an alloy frame, generally they just can't understand why you would wrap good carbon stuff round a heavy old alloy frame. That is a completely different sensation from being impressed.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

MichaelV8V said:


> I was trying to stay out of this discussion, but its just so frustrating.
> 
> The responses to this thread aren't suggesting that people find it impressive that you're working with an alloy frame, generally they just can't understand why you would wrap good carbon stuff round a heavy old alloy frame. That is a completely different sensation from being impressed.


Well because if I use more alloy/titanium on the bike it would be well over 8kg .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Dan-W said:


> Crossmaxx, you made the mistake of trying to apply logic.
> 
> When you don't even know the weight of your current frame all other discussion about frame choice for a light build become pointless...
> 
> Hows the scale coming along?


Scale ordered .


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> Okay I could strip the bike down and put it on a carbon frame and drop around 300 - 500 grams (the m5 alloy is a lot lighter than you think) but then all my efforts would be out the window .


Wtf? All your efforts you would be able to transfer to the new frame, so nothing would be out the window.

The way I see it, you could build a bike that is either say 300-400 grams lighter without sacrificing performance (most likely gaining a lot of performance due to updated geometry, better stiffness due to the properties of modern carbon fiber technology and so on), or you could have built a bike weighing the same amount as yours weighs, but with a lot more functionality (like proper brake rotors, dampers and so on).

This bike, while I realize that you've put a lot of effort on it, doesn't impress me in the slightest, mostly because I wouldn't want to ride it.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> Wtf? All your efforts you would be able to transfer to the new frame, so nothing would be out the window.
> 
> The way I see it, you could build a bike that is either say 300-400 grams lighter without sacrificing performance (most likely gaining a lot of performance due to updated geometry, better stiffness due to the properties of modern carbon fiber technology and so on), or you could have built a bike weighing the same amount as yours weighs, but with a lot more functionality (like proper brake rotors, dampers and so on).
> 
> This bike, while I realize that you've put a lot of effort on it, doesn't impress me in the slightest, mostly because I wouldn't want to ride it.


This.

Build an 8.5kg FS 650B or 29er that could survive an actual mountain bike race or a ride more testing than putting around the local village green or rail trail, and I'll be impressed.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

Oh, and by the way, you might be pleased to know that carbon fiber frames are reparable, whereas aluminum frames aren't (at least not to the same degree).


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> Oh, and by the way, you might be pleased to know that carbon fiber frames are reparable, whereas aluminum frames aren't (at least not to the same degree).


I know I work with carbon . Alloy can be repaired but it takes more for it to get damaged . Where alloy bends before cracking, carbon breaks straightaway and it can also break on the inside of the frame without you knowing until one day - SNAP !!!

I will be getting a carbon frame but it will be a whole new bike . Then if it gets damaged i can repair it quite easily .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

26" wheels are fine . The SID fork has a damper in it already . The ceramic carbon brake rotor and Scrub rotor are proper rotors and the lightest you can get . 

My efforts to make an alloy bike lighter than most carbon bikes has been successful . .
Please try and understand this .


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> Oh and 26" can still be ridden on the trails you just need a little thing called 'skill' .


I agree with you, I'm still using my 26" Ibis Mojo SL and I'm having so much fun on it. But as you're running Furious Fred tires, I'm really curious as to how much skills your trails really require, I'm guessing not a lot. Why don't you post some pics of your bike in action on your trails? That would be cool to see.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Fair point . I think I will change the tyres as like Phlegm pointed out when he rode on his the grip isn't so great .


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

karimian5 said:


> ...The SID fork has a damper in it already...


Unless you've also changed the stock rebound rod/piston assembly, then you only have rebound damping (as you have removed the compression damper from the top of the fork). I would expect this to ride and perform atrociously out on the trails. Take a look here at what the system is like with the RCT3 damper and you'll get an idea of how just removing the comp damper is a recipe for a poorly performing fork.

If you really wanted to go down this route you will need the new DIG rebound damper and then modify the DIG's mid valve to perform all compression damping duties. Even so, it is unlikely you will be able to tune this to match a well setup DIG/RCT3 combo. There's a reason why manufacturers gave up on the combined rebound/comp piston approach.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Cheers man . What do you think of the Shift Up rebound piston ?!!! I've heard people say it improves rebound (it also takes another 65grams off) .


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

I don't have any first hand experience with the Shift Up rebound piston. Can you find any info on what the piston looks like and its shim arrangement?


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

This is their website :

Piston Reduction Kit | Shift Up products


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## TigWorld (Feb 8, 2010)

It may "improve" rebound. No idea if it actually does. However, it still needs a comp damper at the top of the fork to handle compression damping. To remove the comp damper altogether you would need their other kit that does both.

I'm skeptical whenever I see a non-adjustable rebound damper. Rebound damping is their to damped fork extension. Fork extension is caused by the spring force. How much spring force a fork has determines how much rebound damping is required. Too much damping and the fork will pack down over successive hits, too little and it will feel like a pogo stick. Rider's vary in weight greatly, and so how much spring force (eg. pressure in an air shocks positive air chamber) is determined by rider weight and the % of sag the rider likes. With rebound damping, there is no such thing as "one size fits all".


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Cheers man . I have actually modified the Motion Control damper . I posted a rebuild and modification I did a couple of months back . It was Pop Loc and I wanted it to be standard (to save weight) . So I drilled out the rivets, removed the spring and cut off the spring tabs . Then I tapped in a 3mm thread in the eyelts on the inside of the chamber . Then cut some titanium bolts in the lathe and used threadlock to secure them and bolted them into place . I then made a carbon fibre dial and drilled the centre and started to create the shape to allow it to grip the shaft (excuse me) . All in all I took away over 15grams off . If I do put it back in the fork it will be lighter than stock but brings my bike over 8kg (only by a few grams) . Do you think it's worth it to re install it or see how I go with this set up . According to the site their race team have raced with this set up with success (although not sure how biased they are) .


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## Dan-W (Nov 21, 2014)

> I'm skeptical whenever I see a non-adjustable rebound damper.


There is a difference between internally adjustable and totally non-adjustable. The rebound damping is set in the selection of parts when you order the kit I believe having specified your weight/ riding style/ previous setups/ preferred sag etc.

I am not XC racer weight at all (closer to 80kg), ride trails day to day that are more demanding than the usual XC course, with 15% sag and did not like the wooden feeling of my RCT3.... the kit as installed works perfectly for my criteria and is a real revelation compared to the stock fork performance. This is the kit with the compression damper too ("light" cartridge) but even so I can not say that the rebound is in any way lacking and performs exactly as I wished when ordering the kit


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## RooBah (Mar 8, 2016)

Loving it, Seb K!


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## AlexCase (Oct 19, 2015)

karimian5 said:


> Regarding the carbon parts if I crash I can always replace the part but damaging the frame means having to get a whole new frame which is basically a whole new bike in my opinion . I can't justify that . Carbon works great for components but I'm not sold on their strength in a collision .


*warning, incoming rant*

Couldn't live with myself if I didn't respond to this. I can tell you have some experience working with carbon, which makes it very surprising your doubts on its strength. I'm a certified bike mechanic who's been at it awhile. And I can assure you, Carbon is better in every single way than alloy. I have yet to replace a customers carbon frame due to cracking. I've sent a few out to a carbon repair facility for evaluation, but even those didn't need anything after getting crashed and showed clear signs of impact.

And, beyond that, alot of companies these days will just send you a new frame if it did crack. Hell, I had cannondale send over a replacement frame once just because of a defect in the paint. Also, we've been keeping a carbon frame sitting in the shop next to a hammer for the past 5 years to have customers wack the heck out of just to convince them of its strength before they go fork over money on a carbon bike. Paint is all chipped off, but still haven't fractured the frame.

Anyway, want to take a gander at how many alloy frames over the years we've replaced cause of cracks and dents? A whole lot. I'm not trying to burst any bubbles here, and I get that you are proud of what you've done with your ride. But, don't chalk up your allegiance to alloy because of its structural integrity... because it's definitely extremely failure prone. You might as well try to get sub 8k with a large steel frame.

Don't mean to offend at all here, but, I've spent many years working on bikes and selling them to people. And I've heard the "I would get carbon but I'm worried it will crack on me" argument so many times at this point that it makes me sick. :madman:

*end rant*


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## MichaelV8V (Aug 16, 2014)

Its good to hear from someone with a stack of really solid experience in this. You've expressed very clearly what a lot of us were feeling, but you have the evidence to back up what you say. Thank you


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

I'm wondering if he is actually using this bike. All the pictures are taken in some dark shed and he seems unaware of the implications of his tire choice (the Furious Freds). Until I see some pics of this bike actually being ridden on a trail, I won't be convinced that this bike is anything but an experimental showcase, in which case the discussion of carbon fiber vs. aluminum strength becomes pointless.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I've never once damaged an alloy frame . Granted it does happen but I have seen a lot of damaged carbon frames through forums also . The hammer on the frame videos I have seen make no sense as you are using a light tool . When body weight is taken into account and then you slam the frame against a rock at nearly 20mph then you will see the difference . I understand you guys withy your carbon frames and it's all great . I work with carbon so I love the material but will never be convinced on a mtb frame . On a road frame yes on a mtb no . Sorry .


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> I've never once damaged an alloy frame . Granted it does happen but I have seen a lot of damaged carbon frames through forums also . The hammer on the frame videos I have seen make no sense as you are using a light tool . When body weight is taken into account and then you slam the frame against a rock at nearly 20mph then you will see the difference . I understand you guys withy your carbon frames and it's all great . I work with carbon so I love the material but will never be convinced on a mtb frame . On a road frame yes on a mtb no . Sorry .


But if you don't ride your bike, why not have a carbon frame? You won't damage a carbon frame by having it standing in your shed either.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

It gets ridden and hasn't broken yet and still weighs less than most carbon bikes that i have seen  .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

The bike with the new Schmolke TLO bar (cut down and finished with carbon polish), lgos removed, Schmolke carbon plugs installed, custom ordered red Extraite grips, newly modified AX Lightness saddle with 24ct gold leaf logo and bottle cage removed with new carbon fibre grub screws I made from two Schmolke bolts that i cut in the lathe and deburred and thread locked into the bosses (same with what I did to the downtube bosses before) . Too exotic for the trails  !!!


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

RooBah said:


> Loving it, Seb K!


Cheers man  !!!


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

The next time I see a picture of your bike...I expect to see it in daylight and with some mud on it.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

RS VR6 said:


> The next time I see a picture of your bike...I expect to see it in daylight and with some mud on it.


Don't hold your breath.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Le Duke said:


> Don't hold your breath.


Trolling again LeDuke .


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> Trolling again LeDuke .


I don't think you know what trolling means. LeDuke's comment isn't trolling, it's what everybody here thinks. I don't know how many pics you've posted of that bike, and every single one has been in your dark shed resulting in crappy pics where you can barely see anything. If you're insisting on posting pics all the time, why is it so difficult for you to take them outdoors in daylight? I'm not even suggesting you need to take trail pics, as I don't believe this bike has ever seen the trail.


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## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

This has been an extremely interesting thread. Thanks to all who have participated.

Amazing work, karimian. I'm kinda like the others in that I don't understand some of your decisions, but I can tell you're passionate and deriving much enjoyment from the project and that's ultimately what it's all about.

Keep at it and happy trails,

HDP


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> I don't think you know what trolling means. LeDuke's comment isn't trolling, it's what everybody here thinks. I don't know how many pics you've posted of that bike, and every single one has been in your dark shed resulting in crappy pics where you can barely see anything. If you're insisting on posting pics all the time, why is it so difficult for you to take them outdoors in daylight? I'm not even suggesting you need to take trail pics, as I don't believe this bike has ever seen the trail.


You, LeDuke and DanW are the only ones that have been on my case . If you don't like my work.........don't comment !!!


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> You, LeDuke and DanW are the only ones that have been on my case . If you don't like my work.........don't comment !!!


Well, if you can't handle people's comments, maybe public forums are not the place for you. In my last comment, I gave you constructive feedback on how you can take better pictures, but like much else, I suppose you will ignore that and continue with cave pics.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> Well, if you can't handle people's comments, maybe public forums are not the place for you. In my last comment, I gave you constructive feedback on how you can take better pictures, but like much else, I suppose you will ignore that and continue with cave pics.


Oh I can handle people's comments . Making fun of my work I won't accept . LeDuke and DanW have been trolling me since the official WW site . You gave me constructive criticism on taking pictures and I agreed with your comment . Again if you don't like my work and think it's shi* then don't comment .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

New air valves, seals and top black bore caps for the brake calipers . I think they look better and the brakes have better modulation now (previous air valve was sticking for some reason) .


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## Dan-W (Nov 21, 2014)

Thanks for the mention :/ 

Everyone has tried to give constructive input but unless anyone says what you want to hear you are not terribly receptive to feedback. When I post up my bikes it is for tips for improvements and to try and find things I haven't considered. The *internet* isn't a great place for universal approval but a good forum for discussion and improvement.

You asked about lighter metal frames and I listed about 5, before you asserted yours is in the same ballpark without ever weighing it and refusing to acknowledge a potential 300-500g loss which would be kinda handy on a no holds barred WW project like this.

Most have debated the practicality of the build and that is a matter of taste and suggested some other things to consider. Options and suggestions are always good. Embrace it


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Dan-W said:


> Thanks for the mention :/
> 
> Everyone has tried to give constructive input but unless anyone says what you want to hear you are not terribly receptive to feedback. When I post up my bikes it is for tips for improvements and to try and find things I haven't considered. The *internet* isn't a great place for universal approval but a good forum for discussion and improvement.
> 
> ...


Fair point dude .

One thing about those frames is I am going by what others on here have weighed . Eliflap has already weighed the Scalpel and it came in at 2.3kg which with my new DTSwiss shock makes my frame lighter . I believe the lightest metal frame would be scandium but then that's different . Also other members of the official WW site have weighed their alloy Stumpy frames which i have put in before .

So to sum up my frame is in there as one of the lightest . Also I cannot find another alloy full suss bike (with disc brakes) that's lighter than mine  .


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## Dan-W (Nov 21, 2014)

Same as before: Until you actually weight your frame you are just guessing. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't ~300g to be had with at least some of the many frames I suggested as alternatives.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Dan-W said:


> Same as before: Until you actually weight your frame you are just guessing. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't ~300g to be had with at least some of the many frames I suggested as alternatives.


There will be very little difference in the weight of my frame and the exact same model of another rider's frame .


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## MichaelV8V (Aug 16, 2014)

I don't subscribe to the view that components that are light are therefore weak, but to get an alloy frame down to the weight of a carbon frame feels like it would mean its one of the most fragile frames, which is a little ironic

Speaking of which, I have one of the lightest steel framed road bikes with steel rims that you will ever find. I built it when I was 17, and the components were the best I could afford. But jeez, that thing is heavy


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

karimian5 said:


> There will be very little difference in the weight of my frame and the exact same model of another rider's frame .


People will not let up until you weigh the frame. Its looks like you're constantly taking parts off to work on them anyways...so why not take a few more off and just weigh the frame?

Besides...what weight weenie does not know the weight of their frame? :yawn::cornut:


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## doccoraje (Jan 12, 2004)

RS VR6 said:


> Besides...what weight weenie does not know the weight of their frame? :yawn::cornut:


One without a decent digiscale!


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Fair points guys  .


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## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

Yeah, the not having a digital scale to accurately weigh everything down to the gram kinda put this thread over the top for me.

You obviously aren't hindered by budget, karimian, so why not get a proper scale?


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

hdparrish said:


> Yeah, the not having a digital scale to accurately weigh everything down to the gram kinda put this thread over the top for me.
> 
> You obviously aren't hindered by budget, karimian, so why not get a proper scale?


I will when the bike is done .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Just ordered a carbon frame . By a Chinese company (A lot on here seem to have great sucess with them and I need a 26" which I cannot find for a good price) . It was £450.00 . When it arrives I will be sanding it right down and carbon polishing it . Also machining off any mounts that i don't want . It won't be here for a while (sigh) . When it does arrive I will weigh it, I will be installing the parts from the Stumpjumper onto it but I want to try it fully rigid . I can ride rigid bikes off road (requires a bit of skill but can be done) and I'm hoping to get the bike to at least 5.8kg . I will be using the 29" carbon fork I have (DT Swiss) which should raise the front end pretty well . 

What do you think - fully rigid or hardtail ?!!!


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## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

This thread gets weirder by the day. Subscribed.


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## AlexCase (Oct 19, 2015)

Very surprised by the frame swap man! The hardtail or rigid question really comes down to your personal preference. But, based on it being a 26", hardtail would be my recommendation. You'd gain that extra traction on the front that the suspension gives, and avoid that bouncy ride you get from rigid, especially 26 rigid, since you don't have that "roll-over" effect that you get from 650b's and 29ers. But, would be worth throwing that dt swiss fork on just to check its weight. 

Also, you could consider doing the rigid setup if maybe you ran a wider tire setup with tubless and low air pressure. Something like 2.3, 2.4s running at sub 20psi. Would help with the traction and bouncy issue you get by running smaller tires with higher psi. I know you had the Fred's on there, but from an actual performance stance when going rigid, its worth going with bigger tires to combat the loss of traction.


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## AlexCase (Oct 19, 2015)

hdparrish said:


> This thread gets weirder by the day. Subscribed.


100% agree. I'm strapped in for the long haul as well.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

hdparrish said:


> This thread gets weirder by the day. Subscribed.


At least it's entertaining!


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

MichaelV8V said:


> I don't subscribe to the view that components that are light are therefore weak, but to get an alloy frame down to the weight of a carbon frame feels like it would mean its one of the most fragile frames, which is a little ironic
> 
> Speaking of which, I have one of the lightest steel framed road bikes with steel rims that you will ever find. I built it when I was 17, and the components were the best I could afford. But jeez, that thing is heavy


Or leave it as it is and have it stronger than the carbon frame .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> At least it's entertaining!


Glad you like what I do .


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

I didn't say I like it, I said I find it entertaining.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> I didn't say I like it, I said I find it entertaining.


Then don't comment on my post anymore then . You seem butthurt about my bike for some reason . That's you're choice anyhow ,


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

AlexCase said:


> Very surprised by the frame swap man! The hardtail or rigid question really comes down to your personal preference. But, based on it being a 26", hardtail would be my recommendation. You'd gain that extra traction on the front that the suspension gives, and avoid that bouncy ride you get from rigid, especially 26 rigid, since you don't have that "roll-over" effect that you get from 650b's and 29ers. But, would be worth throwing that dt swiss fork on just to check its weight.
> 
> Also, you could consider doing the rigid setup if maybe you ran a wider tire setup with tubless and low air pressure. Something like 2.3, 2.4s running at sub 20psi. Would help with the traction and bouncy issue you get by running smaller tires with higher psi. I know you had the Fred's on there, but from an actual performance stance when going rigid, its worth going with bigger tires to combat the loss of traction.


TBH everyone keeps getting on my case to get a carbon frame so I might as well just get something not overly expensive to try out . I think £500.00 (including delivery) is a decent enough price for a rigid frame . I want to go fully rigid simply because I want the bike the lightest I can get it My Rockshox WC has the shift Up cap and a few more mods and it weighs 1290 grams exact whereas my DTSwiss weighs around 450 grams . The temptation to use the rigid fork overlooks the performance degradation of it in comparison to having something to soak up the bumps . I also know full well i can handle a fully rigid bike on the trails and even in a race - it just takes a little more skill and you have to use your arms and legs for 'suspension' .

I don't know man . I hate these kind of decisions !!!


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## Pezzer (Sep 25, 2015)

people are questioning your right and left because things dont make sense for a lot of reasons. 

I could go on for a while but it's not worth my time cause I'm really not sure if this is just a gag and you actually ride the thing but you spend 1200 on a set of brakes but only 500 on the frame now??? Ask anyone if their frame is over twice the price of their brake set... 

you say you are afraid of a carbon 'frame' bike but then you buy a no name direct chinese frame? doesn't make sense, get something someone will stand behind if you are concerrned you've said many times money is not a cocern many times


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Pezzer said:


> people are questioning your right and left because things dont make sense for a lot of reasons.
> 
> I could go on for a while but it's not worth my time cause I'm really not sure if this is just a gag and you actually ride the thing but you spend 1200 on a set of brakes but only 500 on the frame now??? Ask anyone if their frame is over twice the price of their brake set...
> 
> you say you are afraid of a carbon 'frame' bike but then you buy a no name direct chinese frame? doesn't make sense, get something someone will stand behind if you are concerrned you've said many times money is not a cocern many times


TBH I don't like the idea myself . I'm only getting it to try it as people keep MOANING at me to try it . i can still cancel the order as it's from overseas and they haven't processed it yet .

BTW you are talking about a bike I haven't started building yet . My present frame was £1500.00 .

Cheers  .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Then another £470.00 for the DT Swiss shock (plus other bits) .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Yeah fu** it - frame cancelled . LAst few days I've been stressed as I'm working on my electric MTB and my other trail bike and my electric commuter all at once and fitting new wheelsets, those Evo tubes etc so my mind was all over the place . 

Anyway more updates to follow . I've lost another 30 grams from the TLO bar and Extralite grips so the bike is below 7.92 kg now . 

Are bathroom scales really that off ?!!! If they weren't accurate why would people use them or is it the extra decimal point that they don't calculate ?!!!


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## AlexCase (Oct 19, 2015)

Have you considered a scandium yet? In line with your rigid or hardtail idea, scandium would be a great option since you are partial to alloy. And yes, bathroom scales aren't accurate for bike parts... I mean, most bathroom scales are just measuring pounds or kilograms. We're generally referring to grams, or just low weights in general. I'm used to using this Feedback Sports scale for most things other than super small stuff. In which case any digital gram scale would be fine.

https://www.rei.com/product/729320/...D=120217890000826810&lsft=cm_mmc:cse_PLA_GOOG


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

AlexCase said:


> Have you considered a scandium yet? In line with your rigid or hardtail idea, scandium would be a great option since you are partial to alloy. And yes, bathroom scales aren't accurate for bike parts... I mean, most bathroom scales are just measuring pounds or kilograms. We're generally referring to grams, or just low weights in general. I'm used to using this Feedback Sports scale for most things other than super small stuff. In which case any digital gram scale would be fine.
> 
> https://www.rei.com/product/729320/...D=120217890000826810&lsft=cm_mmc:cse_PLA_GOOG


When I emailed Spesh about what the M5 alloy has they were secretive so I am assuming the metal has some properties of scandium alloy . It is so light , I made the mistake of not weighing it but when I was building this bike in the beginning I wasn't really going for absolute WW tbh so didn't care about the frame weight . 
My Enduro frame is a medium and even after replacing all pivot bolts with titanium and carbon fibre nuts and replacing most bearings with ceramics the weight difference was huge. The Stumpy is a large size don't forget with a more- than-double-the-weight rear shock and when I lifted it i couldn't believe it . So much lighter than the Enduro . Now this could be down to the tubing itself but they look pretty beefed up to me . From all the threads I have read on here and on the WW site the weight difference between my frame and the carbon version (same size) is around 280grams which is far less than a lot of alloy frames out there (usually over 500grams) . So in reality I don't think a scandium frame will make a huge difference .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

This is interesting :

http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/scandium-vs-aluminum-339816.html


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## gsteitz (Sep 9, 2011)

I've never been so confused and so entertained all at once!


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## mortenste (Apr 17, 2014)

Just buy a weight and take a good picture.if you can use so much $$$ on parts,a real weight is a drop in the sea


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## MichaelV8V (Aug 16, 2014)

I bought a no-name Chinese frame, and when it arrived I thought they had sent an empty box, I made the postman wait until I'd opened it and checked there was something inside. And there is was, a carbon frame so much lighter than the alu frame it replaced


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

I think any Chinese frame (well any part) is a hit and miss . The frame I was going to get was made by Beiou and had internal routing, tapered headtube, chainstay mounted brake mount and looked pretty cool - well except the wording on the side of the chainstay which made zero sense !!! I think what was mentioned before woke me up in that having a cheap frame and then everything else expensive doesn't make sense. The frame is the most important part of any machine and should be spent the most on (next to the fork and wheels) .


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> Are bathroom scales really that off ?!!! If they weren't accurate why would people use them or is it the extra decimal point that they don't calculate ?!!!


This needs to be saved.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> This needs to be saved.


Oooh get you .


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## MichaelV8V (Aug 16, 2014)

karimian5 said:


> I think any Chinese frame (well any part) is a hit and miss .
> .
> .
> .
> The frame is the most important part of any machine and should be spent the most on (next to the fork and wheels) .


There is some inconsistency with carbon parts from China, but before I bought my frame I read thousands of posts about them, and nobody had ever had a failure, so I feel very confident in it. Wouldn't want to risk a component like stem or bars, but frames seem to be very reliable.

It doesn't make sense to determine importance, then allocate money based on that, manufacturing costs and materials need to be part of the calculation.

If you only went by importance, you'd spend the most on tyres.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Very true . I'll look into it again but not sure if Beiou are any good. They have been discussed on here and on Singletrack and people seem to think they are legit but there is no actual review of them being tested .


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

jesus never seen so much aspergers in one thread.

i am sorry that you got ripped off, 1500 for that frame is robbery. you're putting lipstick on a pig.

tell us more about your ebike though, that one i could get interrested in.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

syl3 said:


> jesus never seen so much aspergers in one thread.
> 
> i am sorry that you got ripped off, 1500 for that frame is robbery. you're putting lipstick on a pig.
> 
> tell us more about your ebike though, that one i could get interrested in.


£1500 new at the time . This is not a new frame . Sorry you don't like the frame but it works for me, is stronger than carbon and isn't far off the carbon weight .

Regarding my Ebike that will be for later . Some tweaks have to be made as I had a few issues before .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Copied from my G+ page: 


As you guys know I ended up a few weeks back machining off the cable guide tabs and the Brain shock tab (5 in total) . Well I only machined them down to about 2mm as I didn't want to paint them . 

Well I decided to machine them fully off and use the matt black enamel paint . Very strong pain (used in anodising too) and doesn't need a primer or clear coat. I have used it on my trail bike and in over two years the paint is still on . 

I started with the angle grinder to get right down and then completely flatten against the tubing . This was very delicate work as the grinder is powerful and the disc is quite large so i had to be careful not to grind anything else by accident (has happened in the past) . After i used the heavy sanding drum to round the sides of the tubing and then the fine sanding drum to smooth everything over . This took some time as I was eyeing the tubing to make sure there weren't any flat spots and that it was in line with the opposing tubes . 

I then used the matt black enamel (2 coats) to paint the sanded areas . 

Now the chainstay is completely free of tabs . In fact the only cable guide in the seatstay . As you guys know I made some carbon fibre grub screws from the Schmolke bolts I had before and the covered in threadlock and screwed into the downtube eyelets so the frame now looks much better . Also there isn't a single cable guide on this bike and that was done on purpose as I think they look ugly . 

I also machined a bit more the inside bottom pivot bolt to remove the deep scratches and to match the silver/polished crank arm press fitted ring . 

The bike looks better now and all this saved around 7grams .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Just to let you guys know any more belittling and insults will be reported  .


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm genuinely curious if that bike has ever seen dirt or even pavement, I can still see the mold hairs on those furious freds. It looks lonely and depressed confined in that basement.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm genuinely curious if that bike has ever seen dirt or even pavement, I can still see the mold hairs on those furious freds. It looks lonely and depressed confined in that basement.


You are right in that the bike rarely gets used . In fact I made an announcement on my G+ page a couple of weeks back that all the parts (whether I make them or get them custom made) get tested on my trail bike and then fitted to this bike which will then get the once over and then that's it .

So the bike is more of a show bike (that's still fully functional) . Think of it as a Ferrari that has had its fuel tank emptied and then stored away . Sad for a lot of people but for me I feel good seeing it especially after a stressful day I can just go and look at it and it calms me down .


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

karimian5 said:


> You are right in that the bike rarely gets used . In fact I made an announcement on my G+ page a couple of weeks back that all the parts (whether I make them or get them custom made) get tested on my trail bike and then fitted to this bike which will then get the once over and then that's it .
> 
> So the bike is more of a show bike (that's still fully functional) . Think of it as a Ferrari that has had its fuel tank emptied and then stored away . Sad for a lot of people but for me I feel good seeing it especially after a stressful day I can just go and look at it and it calms me down .





karimian5 said:


> 26" is perfectly fine, Furious Freds seem to hold up well although i might be changing them and the fork works great without the damper .


Kind of ironic given some (many) of your other statements.

You claim, over and over again, that this bike or these parts get ridden, and then you come out and drop this bomb.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Le Duke said:


> Kind of ironic given some (many) of your other statements.
> 
> You claim, over and over again, that this bike or these parts get ridden, and then you come out and drop this bomb.


You missed the part about it being tested on another bike first . You also missed the point that the bike does get used but not as often as before .

Please read my comments properly first .


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

karimian5 said:


> You missed the part about it being tested on another bike first . You also missed the point that the bike does get used but not as often as before .
> 
> Please read my comments properly first .


You literally said, in the post that I quoted, that the parts get a once over, and then that's it.

I don't know how there is any ambiguity there.

As another poster noted, we can still see the mold hairs on your tires.


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## AlexCase (Oct 19, 2015)

If they only made a glass display case just a little larger.... 1:12 JAGUAR XJ220 / FERRARI / ASTON MARTIN / McLAREN - GLASS DISPLAY CASE ONLY | eBay


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

AlexCase said:


> If they only made a glass display case just a little larger.... 1:12 JAGUAR XJ220 / FERRARI / ASTON MARTIN / McLAREN - GLASS DISPLAY CASE ONLY | eBay


 Actually if I could get one for the bike I would . I made this wooden shed/house (whatever you want to call it) out of some old bits of wood, some metal brackets and an old cupboard door . I had to sand it all down and treat it with varnish as the wood had some rot . I also used an old bike stand and cut the legs off, turned it vertically and bolted it to the frame of the shed (we'll call it that for now) to keep the bike upright without interfering with the derailleur/spokes . Also the shed allows me to string up any parts onto the roof if it and I can suspend the frame independently allowing me to do work on individual parts without having to take everything out .

The last job I did with this method was to fit the Rockshox fork (after modding it) and instead of having to take the bike out and clamp it I just suspended it, removed the old fork and installed the new one really quickly .

It doesn't look great but I was going for convenience more than anything . Maybe I might spray paint it one day and put some Spesh logos on it .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Le Duke said:


> You literally said, in the post that I quoted, that the parts get a once over, and then that's it.
> 
> I don't know how there is any ambiguity there.
> 
> As another poster noted, we can still see the mold hairs on your tires.


You do realise the tyres are new . Right so now that is out the way the part that I said it gets the once over is correct . Once the parts are TESTED and pass then they get put on this bike . This bike then gets ridden once and then gets put away . Then onto the next part .

Oh and btw the trail bike is no WW bike . It has some parts by Tune, MCFK, Carbon Ti and has some light modified parts but I think it's around the 9kg mark . It's full suss with disc brakes too so I guess 9kg isn't bad but not brilliant (in my book anyway) .


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## doccoraje (Jan 12, 2004)

karimian5 said:


> Oh and btw the trail bike is no WW bike . It has some parts by Tune, MCFK, Carbon Ti and has some light modified parts but I think it's around the 9kg mark . It's full suss with disc brakes too so I guess 9kg isn't bad but not brilliant (in my book anyway) .


Can we get to know your trail bike, (or should I say test bike)??? Obviously I won't ask for for a scale pic of it.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

doccoraje said:


> Can we get to know your trail bike, (or should I say test bike)??? Obviously I won't ask for for a scale pic of it.


Sure . Right now I am upgrading it with some more nice German parts and my electric MTB is pretty much done (just some tweaks) . i will post them soon .


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## doccoraje (Jan 12, 2004)

No e-bikes please, just a pic of your trail bike so we can see where you test the components for your show bike. A full suspension trail bike around 9 kg isn't bad, let's just see it!!


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Don't forget guys that this bike isn't just about being light . I have put a lot of time and effort in custom building parts and modifying components . It's the little details as well that maybe I haven't highlighted all that makes this bike unique . Totally my fault as I haven't put a part's list yet . The reason being is that I have to backtrack everything done to the bike and it's A LOT . I simply haven't got the time right now but in due course I will put up a list  .


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

A picture, not a list of components. When you say trail I hope you mean trail, not xc because I would be scared to test some of your components on a trail bike..


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## MichaelV8V (Aug 16, 2014)

I don't quite understand electric motorbikes, they are a bit like ordinary motorbikes but much, much slower, and with a much shorter range. Is it a green thing?


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

diskox said:


> A picture, not a list of components. When you say trail I hope you mean trail, not xc because I would be scared to test some of your components on a trail bike..


Which bike are we talking about here ?!!!


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

MichaelV8V said:


> I don't quite understand electric motorbikes, they are a bit like ordinary motorbikes but much, much slower, and with a much shorter range. Is it a green thing?


Well you have to work with the bike . So you get more range when you have pedal assist so you are helping to preserve energy in the battery while the motor is helping you to propel the bike . You are using far less energy but still having to use some and same goes for the bike . So you work together thus increasing the power output .

I at first hated the things and thought they were pointless but again you have to try things before judging and after a test ride I loved it so i bought two !!!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

diskox said:


> A picture, not a list of components. When you say trail I hope you mean trail, not xc because I would be scared to test some of your components on a trail bike..


You realize that like 99% of "trails" out there, even "black diamond" rated trails, are XC trails, right?

Unless you're taking a shuttle or a chairlift to the top, it's probably an XC trail.


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

@karimian a picture of your trail bike, not component list of it

@leduke did not know that, thanks


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## MichaelV8V (Aug 16, 2014)

karimian5 said:


> Well you have to work with the bike . So you get more range when you have pedal assist so you are helping to preserve energy in the battery while the motor is helping you to propel the bike . You are using far less energy but still having to use some and same goes for the bike . So you work together thus increasing the power output .


I understand that, but my bike has a 750cc engine and it has far more power than me, so doesn't really need any input, apart from a bit of petrol. And it hits 60mph in around 4 seconds, which seems much more exciting


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## moefosho (Apr 30, 2013)

1. Builds WW bike with all of the nicest parts.
2. Uses aluminum frame.
3. Doesn't use carbon frame because its not strong enough for real trail use.
4. Bike doesn't get real trail use.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

MichaelV8V said:


> I understand that, but my bike has a 750cc engine and it has far more power than me, so doesn't really need any input, apart from a bit of petrol. And it hits 60mph in around 4 seconds, which seems much more exciting


But you get no exercise from it and your bike needs far more energy than an Ebike . Also there is no better sound than the futuristic sound of an electric motor .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

moefosho said:


> 1. Builds WW bike with all of the nicest parts.
> 2. Uses aluminum frame.
> 3. Doesn't use carbon frame because its not strong enough for real trail use.
> 4. Bike doesn't get real trail use.


Fair point about the trail use but you need to read my other comments to understand why .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

diskox said:


> @karimian a picture of your trail bike, not component list of it
> 
> @leduke did not know that, thanks


I never mentioned a component list of the trail bike .


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## diskox (Apr 19, 2014)

karimian5 said:


> I never mentioned a component list of the trail bike .


My bad, I thought you were responding to the comment previous to your response.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

diskox said:


> My bad, I thought you were responding to the comment previous to your response.


No I'm going to do a parts list for this bike (with all information regarding the mods that have been done to get the bike below 8kg)  .


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## super_stein (Mar 2, 2004)

This thread reminds me of the days of Nino vs DeeEight.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

super_stein said:


> This thread reminds me of the days of Nino vs DeeEight.


I have actually been referred to as Nino in the past but with more bite . A ot of negativity about him but not sure why as he seems to know his stuff and his bikes are awesome . Was he selling dodgy parts or something ?!!!


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## moefosho (Apr 30, 2013)

> 1. Builds WW bike with all of the nicest parts.
> 2. Uses aluminum frame.
> 3. Doesn't use carbon frame because its not strong enough for real trail use.
> 4. Bike doesn't get real trail use.





karimian5 said:


> Fair point about the trail use but you need to read my other comments to understand why .


I read them. I get it. Some people just like to have nice things. I have a Bottle of scotch that was given to me as a gift that is worth as much as my car that I just keep sitting around. I haven't opened the bottle yet.

I would say 95% of mountain bikers don't understand WW builds, and probably 99.9% don't understand a WW build that doesn't get ridden.

But don't let that stop you from doing what you like.


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## super_stein (Mar 2, 2004)

karimian5 said:


> I have actually been referred to as Nino in the past but with more bite . A ot of negativity about him but not sure why as he seems to know his stuff and his bikes are awesome . Was he selling dodgy parts or something ?!!!


Nino was very knowledgeable and imaginative/resourceful in his gram reduction abilities. I think he got the heave-ho due to plugging his own products.

I like the work you are doing. Sometimes you have to be thick skinned in this forum.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Cheers man  .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Not much of an update but decided to paint some of the machined parts I had done before with the black enamel paint (and white enamel paint for the rear wheel hub) and also replaced the snap on link with a new DLC link from KMC . The black link on the gold chain will make it easier to find too .


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> You do realise the tyres are new . Right so now that is out the way the part that I said it gets the once over is correct . Once the parts are TESTED and pass then they get put on this bike . This bike then gets ridden once and then gets put away . Then onto the next part .
> 
> Oh and btw the trail bike is no WW bike . It has some parts by Tune, MCFK, Carbon Ti and has some light modified parts but I think it's around the 9kg mark . It's full suss with disc brakes too so I guess 9kg isn't bad but not brilliant (in my book anyway) .


Why haven't you posted this trail bike of yours? That is way more interesting than this Specialized experiment.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> Why haven't you posted this trail bike of yours? That is way more interesting than this Specialized experiment.


99% would disagree I think but then you never did like this bike so this is again your opinion and so doesn't relate to everyone so nice try .

What bike do you have ?!!!


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> 99% would disagree I think but then you never did like this bike so this is again your opinion and so doesn't relate to everyone so nice try .
> 
> What bike do you have ?!!!


On the contrary, I think most people here are interested to see bikes that are ridable (and by that I mean that they actually get ridden, because just claiming that a bike can be ridden is just empty talk until you actually ride it), because that's how most people here use their bikes.

I have an Ibis Mojo SL, thanks for asking.


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## mood (Nov 15, 2011)

I want to see that trail bike as well!


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> On the contrary, I think most people here are interested to see bikes that are ridable (and by that I mean that they actually get ridden, because just claiming that a bike can be ridden is just empty talk until you actually ride it), because that's how most people here use their bikes.
> 
> I have an Ibis Mojo SL, thanks for asking.


I have actually ridden it as I've mentioned countless times . How much does your bike weigh ?!!!


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## doccoraje (Jan 12, 2004)

OK, can you post a pic of your trail bike? The one you use for testing components for your uber light bike proyect. Some are skeptical of it's existence and before you ask I own a Turner Flux 27.5 and it weighs 10,180 gr and I ride it at least three times a week.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

doccoraje said:


> OK, can you post a pic of your trail bike? The one you use for testing components for your uber light bike proyect. Some are skeptical of it's existence and before you ask I own a Turner Flux 27.5 and it weighs 10,180 gr and I ride it at least three times a week.


I didn't ask but nice bike dude and alloy -wahooooooo .

Anyway it was posted on my G+ page about 6months ago (before some of the new mods) so you can head over there to check it out if you like :

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SebKMTB/posts


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> I have actually ridden it as I've mentioned countless times . How much does your bike weigh ?!!!


It weighs 10.807 kg with Magic Mary/Hans Dampf on, and 10.587 kg with the slightly less aggressive Nobby Nics.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> I didn't ask but nice bike dude and alloy -wahooooooo .
> 
> Anyway it was posted on my G+ page about 6months ago (before some of the new mods) so you can head over there to check it out if you like :
> 
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SebKMTB/posts


Alright, if anyone finds this trail bike on the G+, can you please post it to this thread (or link to the pic)? I can't be bothered looking through 6 months of pics to find a picture of the bike...


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## AlexCase (Oct 19, 2015)

Crossmaxx said:


> Alright, if anyone finds this trail bike on the G+, can you please post it to this thread (or link to the pic)? I can't be bothered looking through 6 months of pics to find a picture of the bike...


Thats too much to ask man... Clearly was too difficult to find, even for the owner of the G+ page.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> It weighs 10.807 kg with Magic Mary/Hans Dampf on, and 10.587 kg with the slightly less aggressive Nobby Nics.


So not a WW bike then . Why are you on here ?!!!


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## AlexCase (Oct 19, 2015)

karimian5 said:


> So not a WW bike then . Why are you on here ?!!!


2 things: First, correct me if I am wrong crossmax, but isn't that Ibis running 140-150mm travel? So, yeah, clearly an all mountain rig. And at mid 10kg. Not a bad weight.

And second, what weight, according to you, allows you to participate in this forum? Pretty sure this was created for those in search of information on how to make things lighter. If its taking a 14kg bike and trying to make it 12, or a 10 kg bike and trying to make it 8. Not to mention that each individual "level" of WW is 100% determined by potential budget. Many people just don't have the disposable cash to chuck at making their bike sub 8k. Sorry man, but you just cant dismiss someone's comments or opinions on this forum because their bike doesn't "weigh-up" to your standards. I don't mean this as a personal attack by the way, not trying to offend. I just think you needed to hear that... and maybe post a pic of your all mountain rig


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

AlexCase said:


> 2 things: First, correct me if I am wrong crossmax, but isn't that Ibis running 140-150mm travel? So, yeah, clearly an all mountain rig. And at mid 10kg. Not a bad weight.
> 
> And second, what weight, according to you, allows you to participate in this forum? Pretty sure this was created for those in search of information on how to make things lighter. If its taking a 14kg bike and trying to make it 12, or a 10 kg bike and trying to make it 8. Not to mention that each individual "level" of WW is 100% determined by potential budget. Many people just don't have the disposable cash to chuck at making their bike sub 8k. Sorry man, but you just cant dismiss someone's comments or opinions on this forum because their bike doesn't "weigh-up" to your standards. I don't mean this as a personal attack by the way, not trying to offend. I just think you needed to hear that... and maybe post a pic of your all mountain rig


Correct Alex, 140mm rear/150 front. Nice weight Crossmaxx with beefy tires.
Mine is 21 lbs. even.


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## AlexCase (Oct 19, 2015)

@xc71. Thats a pretty epic build :thumbsup:


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

AlexCase said:


> 2 things: First, correct me if I am wrong crossmax, but isn't that Ibis running 140-150mm travel? So, yeah, clearly an all mountain rig. And at mid 10kg. Not a bad weight.
> 
> And second, what weight, according to you, allows you to participate in this forum? Pretty sure this was created for those in search of information on how to make things lighter. If its taking a 14kg bike and trying to make it 12, or a 10 kg bike and trying to make it 8. Not to mention that each individual "level" of WW is 100% determined by potential budget. Many people just don't have the disposable cash to chuck at making their bike sub 8k. Sorry man, but you just cant dismiss someone's comments or opinions on this forum because their bike doesn't "weigh-up" to your standards. I don't mean this as a personal attack by the way, not trying to offend. I just think you needed to hear that... and maybe post a pic of your all mountain rig


Actually I don't like him . He has been negative towards me since the beginning and I have asked him nicely to go away but he seems to keep coming back like he craves this post or something. He is insulting and trying to belittle me . I really wish he would go away .

Your bike looks cool xc71 and I love those carbon rotors . I even got slated for using those Kettle rotors on this build once . I still have the 140mm on the rear as you can see on the first page .

One last point I really have to make . It isn't just the amount of money spent on this build but I have done a lot of machine work on the frame and mods to the bike myself . I make parts and spare bits out of carbon fibre and I also machine my own parts from billets . I also mod aftermarket parts (in non stress areas) and try and push that extra gram out . If I had just put all the aftermarket parts on this bike it would be over 8kg . I don't have a degree in engineering but all the years of collating data, reading up on books, checking websites I have taught myself the skills needed .

My dream would be to get a CNC machine . That would be awesome (kinda lazy though as doing manual work you learn to get a good eye on straight lines and angles) .


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

Thanks for the props on the bike, but I didn't post what you just quoted me as saying above.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Corrected .


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

xc71 said:


> Correct Alex, 140mm rear/150 front. Nice weight Crossmaxx with beefy tires.
> Mine is 21 lbs. even.


That's a nice build! I'll post a pic of mine later. Mine is 140/140, but also runs a 125 mm dropper.

Edit: actually, I'm impressed by that weight. I could get mine down to 10 kg even on the Nobby Nics by replacing my dropper with my New Ultimate post and an XX-cassette instead of my XT, but that is still a far cry from your weight. I guess my Chris King rear hub is weighing it down, and the Revelation is probably a lot heavier too compared to your DT. Great job man!


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> Actually I don't like him . He has been negative towards me since the beginning and I have asked him nicely to go away but he seems to keep coming back like he craves this post or something. He is insulting and trying to belittle me . I really wish he would go away .


"I don't like him, I really wish he would go away" - are you five years old? Or else, who are you to tell others to go away? And who are you to judge what is a weight weenie bike and what isn't? Any bike that is weight optimized for a certain level of performance is in my opinion a ww-bike, no matter if it weighs 6, 10 or 12 kgs.

If you can't handle other people's opinions, then you really should try to avoid posting on public forums. This isn't a dictatorship you know, where you get to throw people out just because they don't share your opinion.


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## mortenste (Apr 17, 2014)

Popcorn time


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## mood (Nov 15, 2011)

I think this is the trail bike:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c...Q9reEKd84dW9U3VHPMLLQua5StANHzzf=w757-h568-no


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## lRaphl (May 26, 2007)

I think I found it....

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SebKMT...6126168983486461506&oid=109616548525138237374

People comments for it are the same as here for the WW XC one....people want to see pictures of it on the trail to prove it's being used.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

lRaphl said:


> I think I found it....
> 
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/+SebKMT...6126168983486461506&oid=109616548525138237374
> 
> People comments for it are the same as here for the WW XC one....people want to see pictures of it on the trail to prove it's being used.


That's an older picture of it and as you can see it looks like a mix of different parts that doesn't suit it . This would be a testing stage .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> "I don't like him, I really wish he would go away" - are you five years old? Or else, who are you to tell others to go away? And who are you to judge what is a weight weenie bike and what isn't? Any bike that is weight optimized for a certain level of performance is in my opinion a ww-bike, no matter if it weighs 6, 10 or 12 kgs.
> 
> If you can't handle other people's opinions, then you really should try to avoid posting on public forums. This isn't a dictatorship you know, where you get to throw people out just because they don't share your opinion.


I still don't like you . This is my post not yours btw . You are commenting on MY post . Oh and I can handle other people's opinions it's just that yours tends to be stupid and I try and tell you to stop being insulting but then you end up making another stupid comment which makes me think either you are the kid or you are....well just stupid . I really hope that is clear enough or do you need me to break it down further ?!!!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

karimian5 said:


> So not a WW bike then . Why are you on here ?!!!


I think a <11kg 140-150mm bike would qualify as a WW bike in the eyes of most reasonable people.

Particularly a bike with real tires on it. Speed Kings on a "trail bike"? That's probably the most ridiculous thing you've posted thus far.

Why not just throw some CX tires on it and call it a day?


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## Dan-W (Nov 21, 2014)

The "trail bike" has a big fat "XC" painted on the side which is a bit of a giveaway  I know you'll feel you are getting a hard time but it is only daft claims that can't be backed up that bring the popcorn out.

As before, my Scalpel was lighter than this almost 4 years ago and cost 1/4 the price (Durins, Podium MMX, AC, XTR 1x brakes and pedals with Ti axles, Racing Ralphs, KCNC, Speedneedle, etc). Solid, race-able stuff... have you weighed the frame yet or got a scale? I still think you may be in for a surprise


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## moefosho (Apr 30, 2013)

"it's not a trail bike until I see pics of it out on the trails "
first comment on the picture. from a year ago.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Dan-W said:


> The "trail bike" has a big fat "XC" painted on the side which is a bit of a giveaway  I know you'll feel you are getting a hard time but it is only daft claims that can't be backed up that bring the popcorn out.
> 
> As before, my Scalpel was lighter than this almost 4 years ago and cost 1/4 the price (Durins, Podium MMX, AC, XTR 1x brakes and pedals with Ti axles, Racing Ralphs, KCNC, Speedneedle, etc). Solid, race-able stuff... have you weighed the frame yet or got a scale? I still think you may be in for a surprise


Until I see a picture of it then you could be making shi* up. Also didn't you say it was carbon ?!!! Also there is no chance your bike was lighter than mine as I mentioned before it was posted on here that the Scalpel alloy frame is 2.3kg and mine is 2.1kg with the DT Swiss shock .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Le Duke said:


> I think a <11kg 140-150mm bike would qualify as a WW bike in the eyes of most reasonable people.
> 
> Particularly a bike with real tires on it. Speed Kings on a "trail bike"? That's probably the most ridiculous thing you've posted thus far.
> 
> Why not just throw some CX tires on it and call it a day?


So testing other components for stress levels somehow incorporates the tyres ?!!! :lol:

In my eyes and any professional builder a bike that weighs as much as his even for an all mountain rig could be made lighter .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Dan-W said:


> The "trail bike" has a big fat "XC" painted on the side which is a bit of a giveaway  I know you'll feel you are getting a hard time but it is only daft claims that can't be backed up that bring the popcorn out.
> 
> As before, my Scalpel was lighter than this almost 4 years ago and cost 1/4 the price (Durins, Podium MMX, AC, XTR 1x brakes and pedals with Ti axles, Racing Ralphs, KCNC, Speedneedle, etc). Solid, race-able stuff... have you weighed the frame yet or got a scale? I still think you may be in for a surprise


The trail bike can be used on the trail . Who cares what's written on the frame . Specialized bikes are very robust . Maybe Cannondale isn't .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Anyway all you posting negative shi* are just butthurt that I built a fully functioning alloy bike lighter than any of yours .

You are missing the point also that the bike is not just about being a WW it is about design . The little details put on the bike, all the machine work I have done . If you feel bad then don't . Maybe take a course in design work, maybe read up on some books, get a better job and start putting more money into your ride , gain some skills in building rather than just riding and criticising . 

Seriously what skills do you have ?!!!


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> I still don't like you . This is my post not yours btw . You are commenting on MY post . Oh and I can handle other people's opinions it's just that yours tends to be stupid and I try and tell you to stop being insulting but then you end up making another stupid comment which makes me think either you are the kid or you are....well just stupid . I really hope that is clear enough or do you need me to break it down further ?!!!


1. I couldn't care less whether you like me or not.
2. It's your thread, and since this is not your forum, everyone can post in it. This is what I meant when I said that maybe forums are not the right place for you, as you seem incapable of handling comments that are not in your favor.
3. Feel free to break it down a little more, I'm not really following what makes my opinion stupid.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> So testing other components for stress levels somehow incorporates the tyres ?!!! :lol:
> 
> In my eyes and any professional builder a bike that weighs as much as his even for an all mountain rig could be made lighter .


Alright, feel free to comment on the build, I posted it in a separate thread. And please try not to suggest parts that wear faster (i.e. aluminium drive train parts) or deteriorate the overall performance of the bike.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

:yawn:


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> Until I see a picture of it then you could be making shi* up. Also didn't you say it was carbon ?!!! Also there is no chance your bike was lighter than mine as I mentioned before it was posted on here that the Scalpel alloy frame is 2.3kg and mine is 2.1kg with the DT Swiss shock .


So you think your frame weighs 2.1 kg with the DT Swiss shock? Then either it is made out of Coke can-thin tubes, or that weight is dreamt up by you. You really shouldn't claim any weights before you have actually weighted the frame yourself.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> Anyway all you posting negative shi* are just butthurt that I built a fully functioning alloy bike lighter than any of yours .
> 
> You are missing the point also that the bike is not just about being a WW it is about design . The little details put on the bike, all the machine work I have done . If you feel bad then don't . Maybe take a course in design work, maybe read up on some books, get a better job and start putting more money into your ride , gain some skills in building rather than just riding and criticising .
> 
> Seriously what skills do you have ?!!!


Have you ever thought that it might be really difficult for anyone to see all this design work of yours in your cave pictures?

Besides, I don't think anyone here is butthurt, as nobody would fancy riding that bike because it's not well equipped to be run on a proper trail.


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## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

As pointless as what the OP is doing may seem, arguing with him about it is even more so.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> Have you ever thought that it might be really difficult for anyone to see all this design work of yours in your cave pictures?
> 
> Besides, I don't think anyone here is butthurt, as nobody would fancy riding that bike because it's not well equipped to be run on a proper trail.


:yawn:


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

So you think the frame weighs more than 2.1kg with the dT Swiss shock - proof please .


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

hdparrish said:


> As pointless as what the OP is doing may seem, arguing with him about it is even more so.


Haha, this comment and his latest two posts are just perfect together.


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## Crossmaxx (Dec 2, 2008)

karimian5 said:


> So you think the frame weighs more than 2.1kg with the dT Swiss shock - proof please .


Are you seriously saying I should prove how much your frame weighs? That's just beyond stupid. Hey, you know what, my frame weighs 1.5 kg. Please prove that it doesn't.


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Crossmaxx said:


> Haha, this comment and his latest two posts are just perfect together.


Ha ha you have a very basic bike . Go back to school .


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

Wow more people giving me negative reputation .

Well I tell you something . The ones who have been insulting towards me you can just fu** off . Obviously the moderators aren't doing their jobs properly . You are butthurt about my bike being not only lighter but having better quality parts than yours . You are a disgrace to the biking industry . You show no skills in bike building, making your own parts etc but you easily criticise my work . This is not what the industry is all about . 

To the rest of you like Phlegm, RS VR6 and all my good friends on here I'm sorry to say but i am done here . I will be logging off and not coming back again . Too many immature morons for me to deal with . If you want to follow my work then you can over at G+ . Phlegm keep up the good work on your Spesh dude . It looks awesome .

Peace  !!!


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## Dan-W (Nov 21, 2014)

You don't get any negative input on the individual component threads but other BS when it comes to the full build attracts moths to the flame :madman:



> Until I see a picture of it then you could be making shi* up. Also didn't you say it was carbon ?!!! Also there is no chance your bike was lighter than mine as I mentioned before it was posted on here that the Scalpel alloy frame is 2.3kg and mine is 2.1kg with the DT Swiss shock .


The bike is long gone (spontaneously combusted because it is made of carbon obviously and not magic M5 wonderminium) but here's a clue of how to build a lighter, more race ready build for a fraction of the cost of this bike:









Large Scalpel frame, 1570g with DT Swiss XR Carbon shock, Mt Zoom Seatclamp and all hardware. 1670g as pictured including the fitted FSA ceramic BB30 BB and headset.

Even if your Spesh is 2.1kg, you'll have a heavier headset and BB to add and are giving away an easy 500-600g or so. That is a lot to play with to add real world function or have an even lighter WW. Sorry for being a moron and adding constructive advice... again :thumbsup:


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## Deviant_MechE (Dec 26, 2015)

karimian5 said:


> Wow more people giving me negative reputation .
> 
> Well I tell you something . The ones who have been insulting towards me you can just fu** off . Obviously the moderators aren't doing their jobs properly . You are butthurt about my bike being not only lighter but having better quality parts than yours . You are a disgrace to the biking industry . You show no skills in bike building, making your own parts etc but you easily criticise my work . This is not what the industry is all about .


If I may just offer a bit of advice here; get a proper hanging scale please. The biggest problem people were having is how you only published claimed weights or one on a bathroom scale (not accurate for bikes at all).

I think we can all appreciate the dedication and effort that went into your bike, you're a very skilled builder. However your reactions when questioned or criticized weren't very constructive and almost child-like at times. Telling people to "go back to school", "get a better job", or saying you don't like them isn't going to get you anywhere. I got scrutiny for my now defunct BFO-Ashima hybrid brake project but the difference is I used it as constructive criticism to look at it from others perspective.

Many of us questioned your use claims as we too are racers. Your bike somewhat defies the notion that reliability and ridability are primary concerns in a race bike. To come first, first you must finish. If you can race that bike more power to you, however compromises like tire choice or removing the fork damper goes against what many people are accustomed to or able/willing to ride. IMO (and probably many others) I'd much rather sacrifice weight to add reliability, performance, and grip.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Okay, enough fighting with each other, Closing this down. Learn to play nice or don't play at all.


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