# PVD Chainguide



## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I took some time off from chassis design and put some time into component design. I needed a better chainguide system. Like everything else, mine is better!

https://www.pvdwiki.com/index.php?title=PVD_Chainguide


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

Looks good Yo.

Is the idler under spring tension or is the derailer responsible for chain tension?
You could lighten it even more by removing material from the plates on the top guide.

Nice work!


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## Smokebikes (Feb 2, 2008)

Nice job................you gonna sell that? :thumbsup:


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

i noticed on your wiki page in the other photos you are using a shimano chain with a 10spd powerlink, are you running 10 speed?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

No. It's a 9spd DH setup. I use 10 speed chains on all my bikes because they are much stronger than 9spd chains and work a lot better.

The idler keeps tension on the chain throughout the wheel range. All you need and not any more.


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## Bryguy17 (May 19, 2007)

looks good, but looking at the idler detail (with the guide installed), it looks like there's plenty of room for the chain to hop out of the guide there. may or may not be a problem, but you may consider moving the idler closer to the chainring.

btw, some holes in the upper guide might be good for lightness/mud shedding

other than that, nice :thumbsup:


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

What makes it better?


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## TortugaTonta (Jun 14, 2004)

Doesn't look like you could fit a man gear on there.


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

75g more than a E13 LG1+


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

brant said:


> 75g more than a E13 LG1+


alloy bolts rather than the stainless, and some holes drilled into the upper guide plates, and trim a little fat off the clear bash guard you could get it down


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

no worries of crap getting drawn into the upper guide by the rotating chain teeth on the backside of the unit?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

brant said:


> 75g more than a E13 LG1+


Yeah, but the E13 unit is junk. That is what I had to upgrade from because the LG1 was so lame. The idler carrier gets smashed on rocks and bends into swingarms, it's noisey almost all the time. It also has a major (seriously big) design flaw that I correct in my design.

I could make this unit lighter, but my focus for now was complete bombproof. I may try for some lighter stuff later, but considering that my DH bike weighs 39.2 lbs, it's not the biggest deal.

Plus, this unit has the skidplate design that is a feature that E13 lacks. Some structure had to account for that.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

TortugaTonta said:


> Doesn't look like you could fit a man gear on there.


This configuration is what I call the '32 special'. It's specific for a 32 tooth chainring and provides a huge amount of clearance. During the winter and spring season that we don't have chairlifts, I run a 32t chainring with an 11-32 cassette. I'll do 3-4 hour XC ride on my DH bike like that. It's [email protected] core. Ever do a singlespeed ride? Well this is about 3x more brutal and completely tears your legs up. Give it a try.

At the end of May, I'll be doing a 37/38 and 35/36 version. Combining that with the new shimano 11/28 cassette will be pretty manly on the mountain.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Bryguy17 said:


> looks good, but looking at the idler detail (with the guide installed), it looks like there's plenty of room for the chain to hop out of the guide there. may or may not be a problem, but you may consider moving the idler closer to the chainring.


I haven't experience any problem like that on either the E13 or mine, and mine is closer with more tension.

Also, the standoff that you see at 2 o'clock and 7 o'clock, they are placed so close that the chain cannot come off. My little extra security.

Also, this thing is soo much stiffer than other guides. The top plate is totally solid.


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

Running your chainring on the outside of the spider must give you horrible chainline, unless you're only concerned with the smaller gears on the cassette. Running the chainring in the inside offers a much better overall chainline.

Additionally, I see that you're chainring is not spider-centric, meaning it's solely riding on the aluminum chainrings, and not the spider. I've seen lots of aluminum chainring bolts break/strip in that configuration. You may want to get the correct chainring, such as a Saint ring.

Did you have the wide version? I'm guessing that because where you have your pulley set up on your guide, that you based it off the wrong E13 back plate - you're supposed to use the wide plate, not the standard plate.

And as Bryguy said, you really want to get that pulley a lot closer to the chainring, or you will drop a chain if you ride in rough conditions. There's way too much space in there. Check with E13's instructions for the correct spacing method.

By the way, I've been using the LG1 with the taco bashguard on my M6, and it works great - silent. I'm waiting for the new, lighter 09 version to be available in black.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

1. Focus on the details. Look closely at the pics. I'll let you go back an take a real close look. Oops, that hurts, don't it.

2. I'll give you one guess as to what the chainring nuts are made of.

3. My Idler is set up closer than E13 allows. The standoff even prevents any possiblity of the chain coming off the ring.

4. The new LG1 looks like crap. I saw it at Sea Otter. Worse than the original.

Once you start riding your M6 hard in the rocks, you're gonna be a little less excited about the LG1. I know first hand.

-p



Blaster1200 said:


> Running your chainring on the outside of the spider must give you horrible chainline, unless you're only concerned with the smaller gears on the cassette. Running the chainring in the inside offers a much better overall chainline.
> 
> Additionally, I see that you're chainring is not spider-centric, meaning it's solely riding on the aluminum chainrings, and not the spider. I've seen lots of aluminum chainring bolts break/strip in that configuration. You may want to get the correct chainring, such as a Saint ring.
> 
> ...


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

pvd - you never cease to amaze me in your ability to be unbelievably crass.

I also agree that your idler pulley is not close enough to your chainring as others have mentioned.


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

look like black shimano alloy to me


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## Bryguy17 (May 19, 2007)

pvd said:


> 1. Focus on the details. Look closely at the pics. I'll let you go back an take a real close look. Oops, that hurts, don't it.


I see what you're saying, but why have an extra 'chainring' with no teeth on it? I see that the chainring itself is in the middle ring spot, but there's another ring outside. just seems like extra weight unless you can't find the short chainring bolts you need. please enlighten us on that one.



pvd said:


> 2. I'll give you one guess as to what the chainring nuts are made of.


steel?



pvd said:


> 3. My Idler is set up closer than E13 allows. The standoff even prevents any possiblity of the chain coming off the ring.


while the idler itself may be closer than the e.13 one, there's still a chain-sized gap between the chainring and the plate that supports the idler (from tip of teeth to plate). as unlikely as it may be, a chain can still get kicked out of that (say, while backpedaling, in your smallest cog, on very rough terrain). it may be a long shot, but it's still a channel that the chain can come out of. it'd be as simple as extending that outer idler plate closer to the chainring (i'd say to around at least half the height of the teeth).



pvd said:


> 4. The new LG1 looks like crap. I saw it at Sea Otter. Worse than the original.


eh, they're light, they work well in my experience, and they're proven. I can't ask for much more than that.



pvd said:


> Once you start riding your M6 hard in the rocks, you're gonna be a little less excited about the LG1. I know first hand.
> -p


I've personally followed him through many rocks and I didn't see any problems with his chainguide. we weren't exactly putting along either. I know first hand that his chainguide didn't break, and didn't drop a chain. just saying.

out of curiosity, though, what's the major flaw that you find with the LG1? didn't see you mention it specifically.

and no, I'm not trying to rag on ya, just saying how I see it to help possibly improve on a product. the endless pursuit of perfection is a good thing.


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

brant said:


> 75g more than a E13 LG1+


Not including the extra mini machined down chainring in the outer ring position.


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## TortugaTonta (Jun 14, 2004)

pvd said:


> This configuration is what I call the '32 special'. It's specific for a 32 tooth chainring and provides a huge amount of clearance. During the winter and spring season that we don't have chairlifts, I run a 32t chainring with an 11-32 cassette. I'll do 3-4 hour XC ride on my DH bike like that. It's [email protected] core. Ever do a singlespeed ride? Well this is about 3x more brutal and completely tears your legs up. Give it a try.
> 
> At the end of May, I'll be doing a 37/38 and 35/36 version. Combining that with the new shimano 11/28 cassette will be pretty manly on the mountain.


38 is good for me, but our trails are tighter than most (pennsylvania) a lot of people will want a 42 and I have never shuttled or been on a lift so I always ride to the top.

And I hate single speeds (other than the bmx track) I have no spin, I need to lug like 85 rpm like a diesel


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I wish that I could do that, but my rides usually include two 2,500 ft climbs. I know that back in the day Weir and Moses did similar rides on Karpials with I think 38 tooth rings. Sorry, I ain't that tough.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

brant said:


> Not including the extra mini machined down chainring in the outer ring position.


Ahhh, the details. That is to provide additional reinforcement to the spider to prevent bending in a crash. It's not a 'bash ring'. It finishes off the crank nicely and looks really nice.


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## _dw (Jan 20, 2004)

pvd said:


> 1. Focus on the details. Look closely at the pics. I'll let you go back an take a real close look. Oops, that hurts, don't it.
> 
> 2. I'll give you one guess as to what the chainring nuts are made of.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear that you don't like the looks of the new LG1+. Based on what I've read here, I think that if you try one you will be impressed, because it addresses the issues that you seem to have with the older version and a host of others that you obviously didn't think about.

e*thirteen has spent a HUGE amount of time and money bringing direct mount bashguard technology featured on the LG1's to market. We've spent a significant amount on race testing on the World Cup circuit, engineering resources, and applying for patents over the years, and I PROMISE you, we will do what it takes to protect our position.

Best of luck..


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## _dw (Jan 20, 2004)

pvd said:


> This configuration is what I call the '32 special'.


You know that this is the name of an actual e.thirteen system, right? Since about 2006

oops


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

_dw said:


> I PROMISE you, we will do what it takes to protect our position.


Dave,

I really wish that that were true. A few months ago (10/21/08) I contacted your company 
(by telephone and email) specifically regarding problems with the design of your zerostack reduction cups. I was specific an detailed about the issues. I included photographs of installations and modifications that needed to be made to your parts to have them function properly. I even cited standard specifications that were not met. I was met with a brush off and forgotten about. I was left extremely dissatisfied with how you folks deal with development and issues, especially when a consumer approches you with an issue.

The original LG-1 that I had was vulnerable at the idler. The bracket was the first thing to hit a rock and would bend. I was not happy. I was going to get your new one, but figured that I would be able to make my own before yours got to market. After seeing what you were showing at Sea Otter, I am glad I did my own.

That said, I see you going in an odd direction with your new chain device. It doesn't look like it's getting better. It looks like it's getting off track. You can do what you want with your product. After trying with you folks once, I was not going to waste my time again.

I do appreciate what you have done with supplying a full range of chainrings for DH use. I use these products and recomend them to others.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

_dw said:


> oops


It's a good thing I'm not selling parts that compete with you.


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## _dw (Jan 20, 2004)

pvd said:


> It's a good thing I'm not selling parts that compete with you.


Yes, it is.


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## _dw (Jan 20, 2004)

pvd said:


> Dave,
> 
> I really wish that that were true. A few months ago (10/21/08) I contacted your company
> (by telephone and email) specifically regarding problems with the design of your zerostack reduction cups. I was specific an detailed about the issues. I included photographs of installations and modifications that needed to be made to your parts to have them function properly. I even cited standard specifications that were not met. I was met with a brush off and forgotten about. I was left extremely dissatisfied with how you folks deal with development and issues, especially when a consumer approches you with an issue.
> ...


Although I haven't heard of your specific issue with the headset reducer, or any tolerance issue, I'll look into it. It's a simple part that we have been making since 2003, the design has not changed, and will not change. We've sold thousands of sets and I have to say that this moment is the first issue that I've heard of.

Sorry to hear that you bent your back plate. I would hate to see what you would do to any of the competing products on the market. I would take mild amusement in seeing you try to destroy the LG1+, as it's for certain the strongest direct mount system that we've ever made, and huge leaps stronger than the competition.

All 5 spots on last weeks Men's podium at the rock strewn World Cup crace in LaBresse were secured by LG1+ guides. I'm pretty sure that if Steve Peat puts that thing into a rock at 40KPH in his race run and it works, it should, no, IT DOES work for riders like you and I.

Either way, as long as you aren't using our technology, or variants to build and sell products, then carry on. I'll reiterate; If the time and need arises, we will do what it takes to protect our position.

e.thirteen might be a very small company, but we are also a very passionate one.


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## RoyDean (Jul 2, 2007)

Nerd fight!

Sorry, I get that all the time at work.


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

Sheesh, _dw, settle. Anyways, you should just send him an LG1+ to go through the ringer if you feel so confident about it.


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

A friend in CO has messed up a LG1+ already.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

That's a perfect example of just one of the things tha I'm talking about.

I also know how racing and racer parts work. World class riders can ride complete garbage (I am not saying e13 products are complete garbage) and get a replacement after each run. I think it was King(?) that needed his Lefty rebuilt after each DS run at one time Anyway, a consumer needs something that works for as long as it can to maximize each purchase. A pro needs something that holds together long enough to finish 1 run and get them back to the support truck. Comparisons between these worlds arn't very good.

All I want is the very best bike gear possible and I am willing to engineer, test, and fabricate myself to get it. I think doing that is easy. What Dave does is different, he's producing parts that he is able to support himself and a business from. He has to keep his price point down, have his product work on any bike, work better than those he competes with, and win races at the same time. I'll be the first to agree that that is a much harder thing to do.


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## eMcK (Aug 22, 2007)

For this thread to be of any use, other than to inflate an already large ego, how about the design goals of this chain guide and how it is different than other products on the market? 

Also, if you are going to talk ****, how about some detail? 

What is the design flaw of the SG-1? What was wrong with the reducers?

Without detail this type of thread makes you (pvd) seem like you have an axe to grind, and reduces your credibility.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

Seems to me that the thing everyone should keep in mind is that these type of chain guides are just that, chain ~guides~ with some chain protection and not bash guards. They're for *DH racing*, not MTB trials riding and are not designed to take the high impact abuse that crank/spider mount bash guard systems can.


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## b1umb0y (Feb 28, 2005)

I don't use such chain retention systems on any of my bikes and was unfamiliar with most of e.13's products until a few minutes ago. However, after seeing pictures of the LG1+, I still don't understand how the PVD retention system is anything but a copy of the LG1+. 

Other than a few mods here and there, they seem, for all intents and purpose are extremely similar in nature. Actually, it is quite funny as the PVD device looks like a prototype of the far more refined e.13 product.

I know you say yours is better and his is junk, but as others have already asked, how *exactly* is your device better? It would be educational for people like myself to understand this difference as it is, for the most part, much less striking than you so emphatically state.


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Sam Hill practice run at La Bresse.

The taco style bash/chain guide can have it's faults in certain types of impacts. The chain is not protected. But they look perdy and come in trendy white so why question them.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

shirk said:


> Sam Hill practice run at La Bresse.
> 
> The taco style bash/chain guide can have it's faults in certain types of impacts. The chain is not protected. But they look perdy and come in trendy white so why question them.


Broken chain ≠ faulty chain guide and there doesn't appear to be any indication that the chain guide took a hit.


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

DWF said:


> Broken chain ≠ faulty chain guide and there doesn't appear to be any indication that the chain guide took a hit.


Pointing out the flaw in the open/taco design. Say you are leaning into a right hand turn and clip a rock. The chain is left unprotected with these designs. Run a more traditional bash and atleast you need to comprimise the bash before you can bust the chain.

Word is that Sam clipped a rock somehow with his ring/bash/taco set up and the result is the broken chain. This happens on a race run and you are done.


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

shirk said:


> Word is that


Sources?


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

shirk said:


> Pointing out the flaw in the open/taco design. Say you are leaning into a right hand turn and clip a rock. The chain is left unprotected with these designs. Run a more traditional bash and atleast you need to comprimise the bash before you can bust the chain.
> 
> Word is that Sam clipped a rock somehow with his ring/bash/taco set up and the result is the broken chain. This happens on a race run and you are done.


If you're racing DH and you're leaning into a right hand turn and you clip a rock hard enough to break your chain, you're going down. Having DH raced more than a few times, I've seen broken chains many times on folks bikes with every type of chain guide/bash guard there is. It happens and it usually happens at the cassette.

Racing isn't riding. Racing is racing.


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3218753&postcount=123

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3219001&postcount=126


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## CheeseSoda (Jan 8, 2007)

DWF said:


> If you're racing DH and you're leaning into a right hand turn and you clip a rock hard enough to break your chain, you're going down. Having DH raced more than a few times, I've seen broken chains many times on folks bikes with every type of chain guide/bash guard there is. It happens and it usually happens at the cassette.
> 
> Racing isn't riding. Racing is racing.


Bollocks.
Maybe YOU would go down, but you can't come anywhere near saying that all potentially chain-damaging impacts will take a rider down. Who's to say you couldn't break a plate through a garden, then go to mash on the pedals, and when the chain comes up around and tensions over the cassete it breaks? 
The tacos are neat, sure... But they aren't a perfect solution.


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## CheeseSoda (Jan 8, 2007)

Sudden thought:
Why don't we make the taco milled out so that it lips out under the chain?
That make sense?
Feel free to use that idea free of charge, just make sure "ChzSoda" is plastered all over the final product :thumbsup: Oh, and send me one haha.


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## rickthewelder (Sep 16, 2005)

pvd said:


> That's a perfect example of just one of the things tha I'm talking about.
> 
> I also know how racing and racer parts work. World class riders can ride complete garbage (I am not saying e13 products are complete garbage) and get a replacement after each run. I think it was King(?) that needed his Lefty rebuilt after each DS run at one time Anyway, a consumer needs something that works for as long as it can to maximize each purchase. A pro needs something that holds together long enough to finish 1 run and get them back to the support truck. Comparisons between these worlds arn't very good.
> 
> All I want is the very best bike gear possible and I am willing to engineer, test, and fabricate myself to get it. I think doing that is easy. What Dave does is different, he's producing parts that he is able to support himself and a business from. He has to keep his price point down, have his product work on any bike, work better than those he competes with, and win races at the same time. I'll be the first to agree that that is a much harder thing to do.


PV,
Send me one.

RTW.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

brant said:


> Sources?


It's on the street....


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## Bad Knees (Dec 30, 2008)

pvd said:


> No. It's a 9spd DH setup. I use 10 speed chains on all my bikes because they are much stronger than 9spd chains and work a lot better.
> 
> The idler keeps tension on the chain throughout the wheel range. All you need and not any more.


So a 10spd chain will work with any 9spd setup? Im including doubles and tripples here?

I would give that a go if I was convinced it would work. Why/how are they stronger and why/how do they work better?

Has anybody else got experience of this?


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I've been running 10spd on everything I own for about 4 years. Super results. Trail, SS, road, DH. I've only recently started to use the new generation quick links (KMC 10spd). Most of my time was running a pin. I belive in the pin over all else, but lately I've been doing so many swaps I'm trying the quicklinks again.

The only problem I'm having related to this is running a 9 spd Salsa 38t ring on the inside of my Dura-Ace double cranks. Sucks. 10spd chain falls between the rings, but not to the tabs. It just spins like a freewheel. It's intermittant, so I'm not completely pissed yet, but I'm getting there. I figure that I have to take some material off the face of the Salsa ring.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

yet again you didn't answer the guy's questions as to why 10 speed works better/is stronger than using a 9 speed chain.

Just like you still haven't said what makes your copy of the e-thirteen guide better than theirs.


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

CheeseSoda said:


> Bollocks.
> ..but you can't come anywhere near saying that all potentially chain-damaging impacts will take a rider down.


I agree and I wouldn't say that and I didn't say that.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

*Must be the stars..*

Every bike forum/list is full of complete stupid **** discussions at the moment. You know when a subject gets more than 5 replies or the bike list comes in every 5 minutes, there's a pissing match under way.

-Schmitty-


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

MMcG said:


> yet again you didn't answer the guy's questions as to why 10 speed works better/is stronger than using a 9 speed chain.
> 
> Just like you still haven't said what makes your copy of the e-thirteen guide better than theirs.


I really don't care what you think. My participation here is based on my wants and needs, not yours. Why don't you go out on a limb and take a stand on an issue or (god forbid) make something. It's easy to sit back and 'chat' online, but picking a side, taking a stand, or putting something you make out for public critizism takes guts. People will hate you, people will get pissed off, but there is a whole lot more to look forward to in this world than just trying to get along.


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## CheeseSoda (Jan 8, 2007)

I'll be the first to say that PVD is a bit of a jerk sometimes, *but* you have to give him credit for what he does.
The guy hauls some @$$.
And he consistantly finds weak points in equipment, and unlike most of us, he has the tools _and_ cajones to take a shot at making something better... So off his case, aye? We're mountain bikers... We're supposed to be chill. You guys are acting like this is a fixie forum or something. Gosh.


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## jmoote (Aug 31, 2007)

+1 to running 10 speed chains for everything 9 or 10 speed related. The KMC X10-SL has been excellent in every way except costing 2x as much as a Shimano chain (but seems to last longer to help justify it)



pvd said:


> The only problem I'm having related to this is running a 9 spd Salsa 38t ring on the inside of my Dura-Ace double cranks. Sucks. 10spd chain falls between the rings, but not to the tabs. It just spins like a freewheel. It's intermittant, so I'm not completely pissed yet, but I'm getting there. I figure that I have to take some material off the face of the Salsa ring.


As I'm sure you know, Salsa calls them "5-9 speed compatible". The 10 speed chain sits just fine on it (say, in a single ring application) but to shift nicely will require the modification you have planned. It seems one of the reasons Shimano rings shift so well is that they are so thin.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Interesting, for a while there was no 10spd option to put 38t on a 130bcd, so the Salsa was it. I was just double checking this fact and found that QBP has a 10spd SRAM Force chainring available now in 38t. I'm gonna order one of those up and see if it fixes the issue.

I run 53/38 with an 11-27 on my road bike. I go from Fairfax to Daly City (Marin-SF) on the bike 4-5 times a week for commuting. I love to decend fast so the 53t really is nicer than the 52t that I've tried. For going up the wicked hills, the 38t makes such a difference over the 39t. The 11-27 cassette is as wide as I can go, I'd prefer to get it down to a 25 but with a full commuting bag, I don't think that is happening.


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## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

pvd said:


> I really don't care what you think. My participation here is based on my wants and needs, not yours. Why don't you go out on a limb and take a stand on an issue or (god forbid) make something. It's easy to sit back and 'chat' online, but picking a side, taking a stand, or putting something you make out for public critizism takes guts. People will hate you, people will get pissed off, but there is a whole lot more to look forward to in this world than just trying to get along.


How about this:

I've yet to see you present us with anything truly original of your own. All I've seen from you is crass trash talking of work that other people and companies put a ton of hours and time into, only to just copy what they have done with some minor tweeks you call your own and claim to be far superior.

And when called out to defend your "claims" that other products suck - you fail to do so.

I find that pretty lame and somewhat chickenshit on your part.

You find it easy to dish out crass criticism of other people's hard work - but when asked to defend your criticism and state how your "improvements" are better than the original works you copy/tweek - you always fall short.

If you've got the guts to take the critcism pvd - why not come out with some real answers to the questions that have been posed to you in this thread instead of just throwing back insults and rants?

So I ask again - would you please explain why the use of a 10 speed chain on a 9 speed DH bike drivetrain (or any other mountain bike) makes for a stronger set up than a 9 speed chain? I'd love to know.

And specifically - what is it about your guide that makes it so far superior to what e-thirteen has produced?? What does your guide do better?

If you can't explain why and be open to questions and constructive criticism based on your answers - then aren't you preventing yourself from improving?

So let's here it pvd - give us some answers.


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## jmoote (Aug 31, 2007)

I completely understand the desire for a 38t, but I'd be very surprised if you really need a 53x11 to descend. I run a typical 53/39 with an 11-26 cassette but have not yet found a situation where I can spin out a 53x12 and want the 11. If anything I shift into it only when I want to soft pedal down a fast descent at a lower cadence. 53x12 @120 rpm will take you to 73.67 km/h, at which point going any faster is more an issue of staying aero than putting power to the pedals.

This is getting pretty off topic so I'll leave it to you to continue or not since it's your own thread anyway


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

MMcG said:


> ...chickenshit...


I've really got no interst in working to answer anything for you. I come here to have discussions with some very knowlageable fellow builders. You have proven yourself useless in this regard.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

jmoote said:


> ...I'd be very surprised if you really need a 53x11 to descend...


I do. In high control situations, a full 120 rpm spin is dangerous to say the least. Most of my high speed decending contains some very aggressive cornering. I'm not sure the exact cadence I prefer, but a 52x11 puts me too high for the speed and control I need. A 53x11 is on the verge of 'spun out' but stable and usable. I will still end up doing some coasting for true control at the limits.

My road bike is fit so that I can spin fast and under power while in an attack tuck. It's a very different kind of fit. It's very good for decending.


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

wow another side step


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## popoff (Dec 4, 2007)

i'm also pretty curious how a 10 speed chain is stronger. if it works on 9sp sprockets, the inside width is about the same as 9 sp. it obviously works on 10 speed sprockets, so the overall width is less than a 9 speed chain. roller diameter is the same between 9 & 10, that leaves you with less cross sectional and bearing area. 

are the rollers thinner wall with bigger pins or something like that? different alloy? it seems that even if the ultimate strength of 10 spd chain is higher as you claim, it would have a lower stiffness due to the smaller cross section and the fact that stiffness doesn't change significantly with different steel alloys. 

where is the difference? 

Mike


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## toddre (Mar 1, 2004)

popoff said:


> i'm also pretty curious how a 10 speed chain is stronger. if it works on 9sp sprockets, the inside width is about the same as 9 sp. it obviously works on 10 speed sprockets, so the overall width is less than a 9 speed chain. roller diameter is the same between 9 & 10, that leaves you with less cross sectional and bearing area.
> 
> are the rollers thinner wall with bigger pins or something like that? different alloy? it seems that even if the ultimate strength of 10 spd chain is higher as you claim, it would have a lower stiffness due to the smaller cross section and the fact that stiffness doesn't change significantly with different steel alloys.
> 
> ...


I'd like to know too


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## derek (Jan 13, 2004)

MMcG said:


> How about this:
> 
> I've yet to see you present us with anything truly original of your own. All I've seen from you is crass trash talking of work that other people and companies put a ton of hours and time into, only to just copy what they have done with some minor tweeks you call your own and claim to be far superior.
> 
> ...


Are you serious? This has to be one of the least helpful posts I've seen on this board.

You call him out for 'copying' everybody else. I hate to say it, but pretty much everybody on this board is copying somebody else in one way or another. Obviously there are few who are way ahead of the everybody else ...

Let's see he makes something that does EXACTLY what he wants to do, so yes it is likely to be better than the adjustable chainguide for every situation. So for him I would say it is better ....

I must say that I've gotten some inspiration from the stuff PVD is doing.

I'm no help on the 10 speed thing, but why get hung up on it. It works for him.

-Derek


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

MMcG said:


> what is it about your guide that makes it so far superior to what e-thirteen has produced??


He made it. ...That's what makes it better.
I'm a DIY guy to the core and appreciate where he's coming from. There's something very satisfying about putting something you've put your two hands on through it's real-world paces. It's not a quantifiable experience. ...You understand or you don't.

PVD's not a public relations guy. Oh well.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

MMcG said:


> I Help Ted a little bit:





MMcG said:


> I Help Ted a little bit:





MMcG said:


> I Help Ted a little bit:





MMcG said:


> I Help Ted a little bit:





MMcG said:


> I Help Ted a little bit:





MMcG said:


> I Help Ted a little bit:


Doesn't this just sum up where you are here? My stuff is mine.


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## Smokebikes (Feb 2, 2008)

"*You guys are acting like this is a fixie forum or something.*" HEY! Don't start beatin on a fixie..........now let's all get along and accept PVD for what he is.....a really smart and opinionated mofo, who has shared *tons* of info. :madmax:


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

So... how come 10 speed chains are stronger than 9 speed chains?


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## CheeseSoda (Jan 8, 2007)

I was just kidding, Smoke haha :thumbsup:


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

pvd said:


> I've really got no interst in working to answer anything for you. I come here to have discussions with some very knowlageable fellow builders. You have proven yourself useless in this regard.


I'm surprised no-one has mentioned that your design is a blatant rip off of not only the e-13 but the MRP also both designs are Patent protected so no matter how good you make it the powers that be will still find a way to keep you down .

DW- made very good points , He and E-13 have spend the time and money to produce a solid reliable product , if you dont know how to set it up right then possibly you need to read the instructions !

BTW: I know kids in high school metal shop that have made better guides that that , all you did was cannibalize a Rollof chain tensioner , bought some plastic from TAP and copied the backing plate from a normal chain-guide .
Sorry you didn't do anything new or innovative here .


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

Evil4bc said:


> all you did was cannibalize a Rollof chain tensioner , bought some plastic from TAP and copied the backing plate from a normal chain-guide .
> Sorry you didn't do anything new or innovative here .


but he did, he made a a chain guide that only works with an xc size chain ring


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## Evil4bc (Apr 13, 2004)

scooter916 said:


> but he did, he made a a chain guide that only works with an xc size chain ring


Nothing new , only blatant patent infringement :thumbsup:


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Patents are only infriged upon when a product enters the marketplace. How am I infringing on someone's patent? Have you seen me selling this part? Has anyone mentioned me doing so to you?

You are accusing me of a crime and of theft. I think something this serious would require a little evedence.


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## gilroy (May 20, 2009)

*interested in an answer also*



ScaryJerry said:


> So... how come 10 speed chains are stronger than 9 speed chains?


should I switch chains? and if so, why?


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## derek (Jan 13, 2004)

pvd said:


> Patents are only infriged upon when a product enters the marketplace. How am I infringing on someone's patent? Have you seen me selling this part? Has anyone mentioned me doing so to you?
> 
> You are accusing me of a crime and of theft. I think something this serious would require a little evedence.


This was interesting to me, as I've always heard what you are mentioning about the sale of the parts would be the infringement.

The law states:

"35 U.S.C. 271 Infringement of patent.

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States, or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent."

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/documents/appxl_35_U_S_C_271.htm#usc35s271

Unless I misread the rest of the convoluted document, even making an item that is patented is an infringement. Not sure if it is worth it for them to go after a person that makes and uses an item by themself.


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## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

What is actually patented on the E*13?

I just did some digging with Google Patent search and can't find it.

This one covers the general guide.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=FnwNAAAAEBAJ&dq=bicycle+bash+guard


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

derek said:


> Unless I misread the rest of the convoluted document, even making an item that is patented is an infringement.


As the law is worded there, yes, but as I understand the the findings in the courts without any loss, damage, or revenues being incurred, a finding of infringement is improbable. I can make anything and use it. The issue is wether I go and attempt to profit from it in a tangeble way.

On a side note, I just learned a few weeks ago that the Lawill patent has been allowed to run out. Mert told me that first hand. I've seen Astrix using it already. It should be interesting to see what happens with that in the next few years.


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

pvd said:


> As the law is worded there, yes, but as I understand the the findings in the courts* without any loss, damage, or revenues being incurred*, a finding of infringement is improbable. I can make anything and use it. The issue is wether I go and attempt to profit from it in a tangeble way.


I'm no lawyer but....you are badmouthing the E-13 product in an attempt to make your product (a copy) look superior. If someone here reads your comments and decides to not buy the E-13 product, E-13 will suffer a loss of revenue.


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

Baulz said:


> I'm no lawyer but....you are badmouthing the E-13 product in an attempt to make your product (a copy) look superior. If someone here reads your comments and decides to not buy the E-13 product, E-13 will suffer a loss of revenue.


Correct, you are not a lawyer (neither am I, but I dabble). What you are referring to would be considered libel and in order for that to be a crime, PVD would have to be lying. There is nothing he has said that would be considered a lie, only opinions.


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## derek (Jan 13, 2004)

Baulz said:


> I'm no lawyer but....you are badmouthing the E-13 product in an attempt to make your product (a copy) look superior. If someone here reads your comments and decides to not buy the E-13 product, E-13 will suffer a loss of revenue.


How is E-13 losing revenue? 

He isn't making a product that is for sale.

I would have thought more people on this board would have an entrepreneurial/DIY spirit.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

I'm a builder and designer. I engineer and fabricate. Why? Because everything that I haven't made myself or designed is complete and utter garbage. I haven't picked e13 out from a group. They are IN the group. Only two groups exist. Me and everyone else. My stuff is better then theirs. I'm smarter than anyone else. I'm the best tester I know. I win every race, no matter what the clock says. My bikes are magic and I use math to prove it.

Why else do we build? This forum is for builders. If someone is building without thinking in a similar way to me, then why? It's easier to buy someone elses junk than to build your own junk. I don't hold DW or any other designer or company in higher regard than I do myself. Who are they? Is selling a product the only way others validate someone? I know lots of big name people or designers for companies that are utter fools.

It's actually comical. I'm being told I'm ripping off e13 and MRP. I know what I'm using of theirs. Nobody has mentioned what these details are (although DW knows)? Does anyone else even know? I also know what makes my design so much different than theirs. Has anyone else even figured these out? 

It's easy to sit back and quiz me about statements that I've made? You can ask questions untill the end of time if that makes you feel smart, but why not take an intellectual leap and speculate on these things for yourself. You can't understand why I say 10spd chains are stronger than 9spd chains? OK. Why don't you show me that 9spd chains are in fact stronger than 10spd chains? Why don't you speculate on how I could come to such a conclusion? Instead, I'm some kind of jerk because you can't come up with your own thoughts, your own reasons and I won't let you in on the secret. In short, take a risk. Try.


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## Francis Buxton (Apr 2, 2004)

This thread has become useless.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

Francis Buxton said:


> This thread has become useless.


Has become? The only reason I keep coming back is to find out why 10spd chains are better than 9spd chains. I've thought about it for a week now and only come up with it saving ~20 grams and probably not compromising strength in doing so. Seems like they'd be just as strong. I went down a path of it being stronger due to more narrow rollers but decided that it probably didn't make a difference.

The negatives of course, probably more chain suck than a 9spd would outweigh the positives I figured. A bunch of the SS guys here ride 9spd so I tried that. It sucked (not as in chain suck, but generally). The thinner chain makes more noise than an 8spd while it's running on the chainring/cog. That's got to be bad for everything and I can't stand noises from my bikes--especially the drivetrain. Probably the dumbest reason to ride a 10spd chain though is lack of repair stuff on the trail. If I pop a 9spd and go through my spare power links, there's going to be someone that comes along with another 9spd power link. No one is going to ride by w/ a 10 spd one.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

You missed some stuff.


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## adamantane (Jan 27, 2005)

derek said:


> This was interesting to me, as I've always heard what you are mentioning about the sale of the parts would be the infringement.
> 
> The law states:
> 
> ...


no, pvd is correct...he or anybody else can make/construct the exact same part that appears in any given patent that is currently under protection (has not expired) BUT that part cannot be sold in the marketplace...if say E13 or some other company has reason to believe that the person making the copy part is SELLING the part for cash or other compensation then it is there obligation to obtain proof and go to court

One wrinkle: however, if the said part is only patented in say the USA...then the copied part can be made and sold in any other country EXCEPT USA.

anyway


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## TortugaTonta (Jun 14, 2004)

Francis Buxton said:


> This thread has become useless.


C'mon man, there is some classic "my dad can beat up your dad" stuff here.

I never met this pvd character but I bet he is a laugh riot, I bet you could pee your pants laughing out on a ride with him.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

There's so much awesome in this thread I don't even know what do to. You can't see it, but I'm shaking my head a little, laughing a little and crying a little. My feelings are hurt because I've made some things that other people like and now I know that because PVD didn't design, engineer or fabricate them, they are complete and utter crap. This leads me to two conclusions about myself. I suck as a designer/fabricator and I have a very poor judge of character for allowing customers to buy something not designed by PVD. I've only been fabricating things for a few years so I can accept that I suck and make crap, but I thought I've been a decent judge of character for most of my life. I find it disappointing to learn otherwise.

Who wants to buy all my framebuilding supplies?


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## J Ro (Jan 13, 2004)

pvd said:


> As the law is worded there, yes, but as I understand the the findings in the courts without any loss, damage, or revenues being incurred, a finding of infringement is improbable. I can make anything and use it. The issue is wether I go and attempt to profit from it in a tangeble way.
> 
> On a side note, I just learned a few weeks ago that the Lawill patent has been allowed to run out. Mert told me that first hand. I've seen Astrix using it already. It should be interesting to see what happens with that in the next few years.


Sorry for the hijack but that would be so sweet if someone came out with a modern Lawill Leader fork.:thumbsup:


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## verticult (Jan 18, 2005)

may be the guy at the bike shop sold him the wrong chainguide? Perhaps the SRS may meet your application needs better?


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## TortugaTonta (Jun 14, 2004)

smudge said:


> There's so much awesome in this thread I don't even know what do to. You can't see it, but I'm shaking my head a little, laughing a little and crying a little. My feelings are hurt because I've made some things that other people like and now I know that because PVD didn't design, engineer or fabricate them, they are complete and utter crap. This leads me to two conclusions about myself. I suck as a designer/fabricator and I have a very poor judge of character for allowing customers to buy something not designed by PVD. I've only been fabricating things for a few years so I can accept that I suck and make crap, but I thought I've been a decent judge of character for most of my life. I find it disappointing to learn otherwise.
> 
> Who wants to buy all my framebuilding supplies?




You have to read it in the right connotation.

Picture a guy in a all black skinsuit with "PVD" in rhinestones across the shoulders wearing fingerless gloves saying "hickory dickory dock, my chainguides are the greatest... Dooooooohhhhhhhh"

Its much funnier that way


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## MarcusSommers (Sep 11, 2008)

I would use a 32 guide. Looks like a solid design. Where do you source that acrylic piece ?


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## SlackBoy (Mar 7, 2008)

Shimano claims their 7900 chain is quite a bit stronger than the old ones.
And Campag chains, be they 9 or 10spd last way way longer than other chains. Just a pity they don't shift as well on shimano cassettes.


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## D34ThL0rd69 (Dec 31, 2008)

pvd said:


> I'm a builder and designer. I engineer and fabricate. Why? Because everything that I haven't made myself or designed is complete and utter garbage. I haven't picked e13 out from a group. They are IN the group. Only two groups exist. Me and everyone else. My stuff is better then theirs. I'm smarter than anyone else. I'm the best tester I know. I win every race, no matter what the clock says. My bikes are magic and I use math to prove it.
> 
> Why else do we build? This forum is for builders. If someone is building without thinking in a similar way to me, then why? It's easier to buy someone elses junk than to build your own junk. I don't hold DW or any other designer or company in higher regard than I do myself. Who are they? Is selling a product the only way others validate someone? I know lots of big name people or designers for companies that are utter fools.
> 
> ...


Let's make babies together.


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## popoff (Dec 4, 2007)

so here's a brief design review of you setup PVD:

looks like you have some bolts threaded into the polycarbonate for the lower jockey wheel with no inserts, and they aren't thru bolts with nuts. that is an issue with polycarbonate, it's very notch sensitive, sharp inside corners matter, a lot. also can't tell, but it will eventually have a crack starting at the recess you milled into it unless you used an endmill with a decent corner radius. 

the polycarb. skid plate is attached with 2 bolts, creating a line to transfer bending to the mounting plate. the aluminum looks relatively thick, so it will stress the 2 lower ISCG screws in bending without sharing much load on the top screw. if you used 3 bolts with more wrap (not inline) you would transfer bending loads to the plate more effectively. (looks like E13 does this with 2 bolts and a partial wrap around slot in the plastic)

the polycarb/aluminum structure is rigid, and there's no vertical compliance built in, it will likely generate some big peak loads in the mounting bolts holding it to the frame tabs or tear out the chainring bolts holding the PC to the aluminum. (e13 has a honeycomb type of skid plate and i'd bet its made of abs or glass filled nylon, or something with more flex & hysteresis to take the edge off of a hit then dissipate some of the energy into the expendable skid plate material)

you have a big overhang built into the PC skid plate cantilevered off of the back of the guide. if the flat surface of the bottom of this slopes down toward the back of the bike and isn't parallel to the ground it will create a moment on the mounting bolts/tabs/etc when hitting a solid object increasing the chances of ripping off the tabs or shearing bolts. if it is designed to sit parallel, probably no big deal. 

you can try to make your guide strong enough to never break, but you'll just be sitting there with broken frame tabs. structurally, thats far from an efficient use of material to do the job. throwing more wall thickness at the problem isn't always better. 

from looking at pictures of the LG1+ and never actually seeing one up close, the thing that sticks out as a design feature i don't care much for is the slotted countersunk iscg mounting holes. each screw has 2 line contacts with the slot, but this is clearly a compromise for adjustability. there are ways to keep a low profile with a slot, but they are generally just a different type of compromise (low head bolts, bolt plates with c-sunk hole). overall it looks pretty well thought out. i'm sure it could be broken, and so could yours. e13 probably wouldn't have lots of happy customers if they trashed their frame tabs with indestructable chain guides. 

in general, something has to give. seems like its better to be the cheapest, easiest to replace part. 

on the chain stuff, i did bound the problem of how the 10 speed chain could be stronger than the 9 speed. its either slightly different pivot configuration (could be better in most aspects) or different material (better ultimate strength, but lower stiffness). you didn't respond. you just called everyone stupid. 

your statement about building the best and knowing better is entertaining when you build stuff that is a relatively small refinement of what's already out there (i.e. someone else thought of the big idea, you came up with a pretty minor change to it). 

good luck big chief, but you probably don't need it. 
Mike


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## scooter916 (Jan 2, 2006)

that has to be the best reply ever:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## merk (Jan 12, 2004)

Complete and utter garbage!








[/QUOTE]


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## verticult (Jan 18, 2005)

I don't think the LG1 is designed to make repeated contact with the ground. On the chain thing, if the chain pin is shorter, it would deflect and distrort less under load. It would seem.


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

verticult said:


> I don't think the LG1 is designed to make repeated contact with the ground. On the chain thing, if the chain pin is shorter, it would deflect and distrort less under load. It would seem.


Bash guard vs Grind Plate.


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

pvd said:


> The only problem I'm having related to this is running a 9 spd Salsa 38t ring on the inside of my Dura-Ace double cranks. Sucks. 10spd chain falls between the rings, but not to the tabs. It just spins like a freewheel.


So why is that better than 9 speed chains?


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