# Show a Pic of Your In-process / Recently Finished Trail



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Just finished an unrideable stretch I have been working for a few weeks. The whole stretch is under a mile but man it took some effort! 

I'll show you mine if you show me yours!


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

More pics!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

I’m riding it tomorrow morning and will get some shots. I want to see others pride and joy as well. Post’em up peeps!


----------



## BunniBoi (Aug 20, 2018)

Kind of tough to see the lines, but it's about a 3' rock drop into a couple different line options.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Hey BunniBoi, Your pictures aren't showing up, at least for me that is.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

These pics are from a recent trail rut stabilization project. A series of these check dams were installed, and the long rut will eventually fill in between the dams. A properly routed and drained trail tread was rerouted to the upslope side of the rut. The crew pictured is one of our Southwest Conservation Corps (sccorps.org) trail crews working on a section of the Purple Haze Trail, on the Zuni Mountains Trail Project.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

bsieb said:


> These pics are from a recent trail rut stabilization project. A series of these check dams were installed, and the long rut will eventually fill in between the dams. A properly routed and drained trail tread was rerouted to the upslope side of the rut. The crew pictured is one of our Southwest Conservation Corps trail crews working on a section of the Purple Haze Trail, on the Zuni Mountains Trail Project.


That rut is from the trail or runs across the trail? Man that is steep and narrow of a rut for a trail if it is the trail!


----------



## BunniBoi (Aug 20, 2018)

roughster said:


> Hey BunniBoi, Your pictures aren't showing up, at least for me that is.


Hmmm, don't know why the forum won't let me directly upload, and it doesn't seem to play well with imgur. Pix should be clickable, even if they don't appear inline.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

roughster said:


> That rut is from the trail or runs across the trail? Man that is steep and narrow of a rut for a trail if it is the trail!


The rut was the trail, which was as wide as the top of the rut. Once the rutting starts, it narrows down and is eventually hard to ride, so another tread starts beside it. The situation developed over many years of waiting for approval to maintain the trail.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

BunniBoi said:


> Hmmm, don't know why the forum won't let me directly upload, and it doesn't seem to play well with imgur. Pix should be clickable, even if they don't appear inline.


That looks nice and jungley, good job! Love the moss / green everywhere and the drop looks fun too


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

This is in the in-progress half pipe section. Top two turns are perfect at speed. #3 and #5 need to be extended up onto the hill more and with a wider turning radius. They rode perfectly while rough but as the trail got smoother I find myself having to brake and turn faster and more abruptly than I want. They aren't as sharp as they appear in the photo as I think that has to do with the fact I had to use a panoramic photo to get all the turns in one shot and it distorts the lower portion of the photo.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

This is a grade reversal at the top of a switchback turn I'm rebuilding.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Walt Dizzy said:


> This is a grade reversal at the top of a switchback turn I'm rebuilding.


Damn man you doing that by hand? Putting in the time in the dirt!


----------



## 11053 (Sep 19, 2009)

roughster said:


> This is in the in-progress half pipe section. Top two turns are perfect at speed. #3 and #5 need to be extended up onto the hill more and with a wider turning radius. They rode perfectly while rough but as the trail got smoother I find myself having to brake and turn faster and more abruptly than I want. They aren't as sharp as they appear in the photo as I think that has to do with the fact I had to use a panoramic photo to get all the turns in one shot and it distorts the lower portion of the photo.
> 
> View attachment 1220927


Roughster, can you share general location? Don't need or want exact details, but the oaks, sandstone and bovine terracing remind me of my home turf in the SF East Bay of California.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

East Bay is a stretch, but you are roughly in the right area. 8.5 miles in, another 5 ish to go before I can say “done”


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

No pictures of what I'm currently working on yet, but I've got some video of what I worked on this summer.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Roughster: "Damn man you doing that by hand? Putting in the time in the dirt!"

Long story. Even though we have funding and a development plan accepted by the state DNR, the park master plan process has been hijacked by our state snowmobile association. And the resulting lawsuits from the former park manager resulted in a reset to square one. The current manager is understandably reluctant to authorize anything except hand work for maintenance purposes only. My partner's wife has returned to a paying job so he no longer has time for trail work. 

Fortunately I have a beautiful piece of land to work in. Despite everything, I feel blessed.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

*Water Management*

I'm in the planning stages for a reroute around a chronically wet section of trail. The area in question has, like a lot of the park, a layer of black leaf compost over a relatively impermeable clay. In the better sections, there are well-developed ravines that drain the water into manageable streams.

The area in question does not have big ravines, but it does have a lot of water seeping through the compost down the hillside from the "perched" water table above.

My initial efforts to relocate the trail didn't go high enough on the hillside to get over the seeps. My partner recently found a relatively dry vertical corridor to climb over the seeps. The reroute will have to horizontally traverse a section of hillside that has 4 or 5 streambeds in about 100 yards.

The key to getting this to work is to make sure these streams are draining efficiently. The photo shows a location where two or three trees fell over and into one of the streams. I was able to cut through the most critical spot (without destroying my chain saw), and restore the "correct" function of the drainage.

It's not pretty, but it's a big step toward my goal of a more rain tolerant trail system.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Strong efforts Walt and Bsieb! I'm going to put in an hour or so today during lunch on the next stretch of my trail. I am riding this evening with my son at a different trail system. He says my trail is too hard, heheh. I took that as a compliment!  I'll try to get a picture of some freshly turned dirt with before and after if I can make significant progress!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Cotharyus said:


> No pictures of what I'm currently working on yet, but I've got some video of what I worked on this summer.


Yeah that looks awesome. Nice work! What's next?


----------



## HotHead (Feb 24, 2015)

BunniBoi said:


> Kind of tough to see the lines, but it's about a 3' rock drop into a couple different line options.


Holy cow! I wasn't understanding why you were trying to make a trail though that tight spot. Then I saw the vid. Are you 8" tall? Ha! That is totally messin' with my brain. I have to watch that again....


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Of course I forgot to get a "before" picture, but I noticed on my last few rides I was using the bank as a berm anyways. Figured I might as well actually make it a berm.

It was a good short project. I cleaned up the runway into it as well. On the way back I checked out a mini-loop I was considering adding to the trail system and actually walking it got me super stoked on it. Definitely going to be some of the harder / more technical riding in the trail system but it will also be a very unique stretch of trail for sure!


----------



## BunniBoi (Aug 20, 2018)

Where the guy in the video stopped there's a really fun little sloped rock leading back up to the main trail. After the video was shot I cut the left path seen in the still pix. Just down on the other side of the trees is a really big boulder wall ride (You can slightly see it in the third pic) that only needs a bit of cleaning up and grooming.


----------



## Bentpushrod (Nov 8, 2015)

Here’s what I have been building.


----------



## Bentpushrod (Nov 8, 2015)

When building trail, you must keep hydrated with hoppy homebrewed goodness.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Bentpushrod said:


> When building trail, you must keep hydrated with hoppy homebrewed goodness.


Amen to that brother. Home brewer here as well! That's some black ass soil. Volcanic?


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

roughster said:


> Yeah that looks awesome. Nice work! What's next?


Some stuff that's so rocky it's all going to end up being hand built. Since I'm contractually obligated to build a certain amount of "easy" trail I'm having to move a lot rock at the moment.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BourvB6B_tB/


__
http://instagr.am/p/BpCWzEehJl1/


----------



## Bentpushrod (Nov 8, 2015)

roughster said:


> Amen to that brother. Home brewer here as well! That's some black ass soil. Volcanic?


No volcanoes around here. Just some North Dakota dirt.


----------



## firemb (Nov 4, 2014)

What area of North Dakota?


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Cotharyus said:


> Some stuff that's so rocky it's all going to end up being hand built. Since I'm contractually obligated to build a certain amount of "easy" trail I'm having to move a lot rock at the moment.


Ughh that's tough sledding to move them, but man the builder in me says DON'T MOVE'em, but totally understand contractual obligations. Looking at the bottom pic, seems like you can use the rocks as hard borders and slalom the trail around them. Judging by the turned dirt, looks like that may be what you are already doing.


----------



## Bentpushrod (Nov 8, 2015)

firemb said:


> What area of North Dakota?


Near Columbus, in the northwest corner of the state.


----------



## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)




----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> View attachment 1221203


That looks like a huge gap!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

roughster said:


> Ughh that's tough sledding to move them, but man the builder in me says DON'T MOVE'em, but totally understand contractual obligations. Looking at the bottom pic, seems like you can use the rocks as hard borders and slalom the trail around them. Judging by the turned dirt, looks like that may be what you are already doing.


Yeah, there's about two miles of "Easy" trail and then I get to start on the intermediate and difficult stuff. I won't be moving nearly as many rocks then, unless I decide I want to stack some. Still, there are some very large shelf transitions further up the hill where those trails are, so I'll either be loading in material to build those transitions up a little or cutting some rock to make ridable transitions. While I know a few people that can manage a 4 foot vertical, I don't think I'll be making that the A line anywhere. But yeah, the easy trail will be doing a lot of flowing around some of the larger rocks, with some B lines up onto stuff for folks like me who might end up riding with their kids out there.


----------



## firemb (Nov 4, 2014)

Bentpushrod said:


> Near Columbus, in the northwest corner of the state.


Much trail in that area?


----------



## Bentpushrod (Nov 8, 2015)

firemb said:


> Much trail in that area?


None. The closest single track is 100 miles away, that's why I'm building this.


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

Bentpushrod said:


> When building trail, you must keep hydrated with hoppy homebrewed goodness.


Can you come to my build days, please?


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

I love these threads. It's nice to see what other folks are working on. Lots of nice stuff in this thread! I haven't been doing much trail work the past two seasons for various reasons but I'm back at it again. Yesterday I finally finished the transition in the foreground. It's gnarlier than it looks in the pic. I cleaned up and rearranged some of the rock and then added a load of dirt. It's much nicer now. You can drop in up top, go down the steep rock face in the middle there and then huck (or roll) the rock in the foreground. The landing's a bit flat but it's actually a pretty smooth huck despite that. In my haste, I forgot to take an after pic. I will do that next time I'm in there. There's still a good bit of ground work to be done on this trail but I'm hoping to get it finished before the snow flies.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

L. Ron Hoover said:


> I love these threads. It's nice to see what other folks are working on. Lots of nice stuff in this thread! I haven't been doing much trail work the past two seasons for various reasons but I'm back at it again. Yesterday I finally finished the transition in the foreground. It's gnarlier than it looks in the pic. I cleaned up and rearranged some of the rock and then added a load of dirt. It's much nicer now. You can drop in up top, go down the steep rock face in the middle there and then huck (or roll) the rock in the foreground. The landing's a bit flat but it's actually a pretty smooth huck despite that. In my haste, I forgot to take an after pic. I will do that next time I'm in there. There's still a good bit of ground work to be done on this trail but I'm hoping to get it finished before the snow flies.


Love the look of that stretch. Like a rock waterfall!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Here's a shot of me dropping in on the top turn of the Half Pipe. Its steep. I didn't realize it until my son decided to take the low entry and he said even that is pretty steep and scary!

Good times and it's riding well!


----------



## wfo922 (Dec 14, 2009)




----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

wfo922 said:


> View attachment 1221764


I'm going to assume that is the "before" picture, lol


----------



## wfo922 (Dec 14, 2009)

I'm photo posting challenged! Had to resize the finished pic. This was a morning session that a buddy and I completed. We had scouted the section multiple times, flagged three options and chose this route. Pretty stoked on how it turned out. I dig digging in our sloppy pnw winters!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Damn that looks awesome! Good job!

I'll be honest, the first thing I thought after getting over the fact that places on Earth are currently that wet (hah its bone dry here in NorCal), is there looks to be a pretty sweet natural wood line if you help it a little to go over that creek instead of through it:









Definitely want to say this is from looking at picture only not necessarily knowing the terrain, dirt, wood, or reality of the area! Not trying to critique, just that the line jumped right out at me!


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

roughster said:


> Love the look of that stretch. Like a rock waterfall!


Thanks! It's a bit like that to ride as well. It's 3 rock rolls in the space of about 50 linear feet. The middle one is super steep. I dug up some older pics of this section, I will put them in a new post below.



roughster said:


> Here's a shot of me dropping in on the top turn of the Half Pipe. Its steep. I didn't realize it until my son decided to take the low entry and he said even that is pretty steep and scary!
> 
> View attachment 1221729
> 
> ...


This looks awesome!



wfo922 said:


> View attachment 1221795
> 
> I'm photo posting challenged! Had to resize the finished pic. This was a morning session that a buddy and I completed. We had scouted the section multiple times, flagged three options and chose this route. Pretty stoked on how it turned out. I dig digging in our sloppy pnw winters!


Very cool. Great to see the totally raw before pic and then the finished section.


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

Dug up some older pics of this section, showing the progression of the build.

This is what it looked like before I started ground work. This picture was taken standing right on top of the final roll in my first pic (right where my pack is sitting):









There was a thick layer of organic crap at the bottom of this rock so I had to dig it out and put in a solid transition:









Transition mostly completed in this pic and a nice view of the profile of the roll. It's pretty steep:









And here it is looking down from the approach. The other roll is a little less than 1/3 from the top of the pic. I pulled out all the organic stuff and built a turnpike with rock and dirt to the top of the last roll. Can't see that in the pic I posted yesterday:


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

L. Ron Hoover said:


> Dug up some older pics of this section, showing the progression of the build.
> 
> This is what it looked like before I started ground work.


Solid work! That looks fantastic. I have to find me a good rock roll section for my trail, lol.


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

roughster said:


> Solid work! That looks fantastic. I have to find me a good rock roll section for my trail, lol.


Thanks! It's been a labour of love for sure. Looking back, I've done quite a bit of work here. Haha! I'd love to have a nice wide open section like yours somewhere too. We have mostly dense woods. There are 8 rock rolls on the first half of this 0.3mi section of trail (aptly named Rock'n'Rolla) so we have lots of that kind of thing.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

There is such a cool rhythm you can get in while hand benching. I wear earphones mostly for the noise protection, but the heavy metal coming out of them definitely helps with the tough parts 

I hand benched almost a quarter of a mile and finished my new section. It is rideable start to finish and has some awesome riding in it. On the way back out I spot fixed a few places that have bothering me and staged the tools for the next section I am working on. It’s going to be awesome!


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

That's rad roughster.


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

Sick, I bet it's hard work getting through that organic layer.


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

I have issues with uploading photos on here but my bud put some of our pics up in the Arizona forum. Here's a direct link.

http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/heart-trail-project-1083365.html

After two years of planning we broke ground this past July or maybe it was the first week in August? I'm not 100% certain but we managed to complete nearly 1.5 mile of tread in a few months time with volunteer efforts. The Little Elden section (in yellow on the google earth image in thread) is mostly mellow XC stuff with a good climb/descent in the center section and the Heart trail is going to be another 4.5 miles of ripping descending from the Sunset Trail. Once it's completed there will be a new 6 to 7 mile descent over 2000 vertical feet. Again, not 100% on the mileage but it's in that ballpark.

The LE trail is part of the Arizona Trail, it's an honor to be part of planning the realignment for this as well as building it.

Edit: I guess that google earth image isn't in that thread, sorry. I'll look for an image somewhere else and link it here if I can find it.


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Cool


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

raisingarizona said:


> I have issues with uploading photos on here but my bud put some of our pics up in the Arizona forum.


What beautiful scenery! That's a great place to be digging!


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

roughster said:


> What beautiful scenery! That's a great place to be digging!


Thanks and it really is. It's the east face of Elden so it's more of a transitional zone than the more northernly facing aspects. The digging can be pretty easy but if you need to go through a stand of scrub oaks it's pretty tough.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

A little more from yesterday...


__
http://instagr.am/p/BpS2g92Bo1x/


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

raisingarizona said:


> Sick, I bet it's hard work getting through that organic layer.


It sure is. It's moss and turf and full of roots. It was over a foot thick at the bottom of the rock face. Gotta get it all out of there in a spot like that. Check the pile of crap I dug out of there:










And another gratuitous pic...










Ok, that's enough from this piece of trail. 



raisingarizona said:


> I have issues with uploading photos on here but my bud put some of our pics up in the Arizona forum. Here's a direct link.
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/heart-trail-project-1083365.html
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, that's really nice. So much vertical! We're lucky to get 3 or 400' out here. One of these days I'm going to drag my carcass out to Arizona for some riding.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Did my first "locals ride" this morning with two other local riders. Both of them knew there were "some" trails out there, but didn't know how to connect it all together. One of them got the half tour (had to bail for work) and the other the full tour. 8 miles 1,400' elevation, good times!

Super positive feedback and some offers to help dig. Yeah goat! Makes me fired up to get it all finished up. I couldn't help but feel the small twinge of pride at the end :thumbsup:


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

*First Turn roughed out*

Double posting, hope that's OK. I want to keep the thread chronicling my project complete, but still want to add here as well.

I am creating a training track for my middle-school MTB team. I have no experience with this type of trail-building, so don't know if this is good work or not. Advice welcome. So here's a before and after of my first turn. It is on a flat, utilizing the berm for elevation change. I will be adding 4" of quarter minus to the moondust in hopes of stabilizing it.

Before








After


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Thanks for being an involved adult!

Possibly the land you are working has more slope than it appears in the pictures? The puddle in the grass at the top of the second picture makes it appear somewhat flat. Is this a sandy soil you are working in? What makes it moondust? I don't know what "quarter minus" is, is it some kind of soil stabilizer?

My work is as much about preventing water damage as it is creating an interesting trail. Grade reversals are a primary design principle, and possibly more important on flat terrain than hilly! The turn you have constructed does not appear to reverse across the grade. If so, this is a design flaw that will cause the trail to degrade prematurely.*

Apologies if my assumptions are unwarranted! It's difficult to see elevation changes in a 2-dimensional photograph.

I hope my comments do not come across as excessively critical. I applaud your willingness to get involved and put your efforts into something worthwhile. 


Best wishes to you in your project!

*The failure mode occurs when sufficient rain falls on the trail to exceed its drainage capacity: rain pools on the surface. Trails always sink into the dirt surface to some degree and form a channel for surface water. There is always some small amount of slope to the trail. Water starts flowing, and water flowing above some critical speed carries soil particles. The finer the soil particles, the easier they are for water to move. The volume, speed, and the force water exerts on it's channel, adds up as the length it flows increases. 

Grade reversals (places where the the trail slope changes from downhill to uphill, or the opposite) limit the length of the water channels and limit the force build-up of long runs. Grade reversals, as a water control measure, are more important than trail out-slope. Grade reversals allow us to use in-sloped turns without having them turn into unrideable ruts. 

(My wife just rolls her eyes when I start talking like this! The only people who care are people who have had to rebuild trails that have failed due to water damage. Like me.)


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Walt Dizzy said:


> ...
> Possibly the land you are working has more slope...


Nope, its flat. Perimeter of an athletic field. Only elevation change is the berm around the field, maxing out at 3 to 4 feet.



> What makes it moondust?


It's clay, no sand. If it's wet (almost never), it is slippery and sticky. When it dries then is ridden on or dug up it turns to powder. Out here it is called moondust.



> I don't know what "quarter minus" is


Gravel passed through a 1/4" seive, where everything smaller (fines) is kept as well. It is commonly used here for stabilizing surfaces and also used to lock in pavers and such. My gravel supplier actually suggested something even smaller, but I can't read his writing so I don't know what it is called. He wrote "M/??? Fines" The material he suggested dries to a concrete-like hardness, but can still be broken with your fist. We are going to experiment with mixing it in, to different degrees, with the moondust to see if we can get a surface that is more natural than a paved surface, but more stable than what we have now.



> My work is as much about preventing water damage as it is creating an interesting trail. ...


This is really different work for me as well. My priorities when working on singletrack seem completely at odds with this project. Out there, erosion is the biggest concern, but it's 70 miles of trail with lots of elevation change and the primary goal is sustainability. Here, the whole trail is just .7 of a mile, it will be regularly maintained, the only water it will see is from the watering system, which I can control (I think )

As the project progresses, I am finding my priorities shifting, moving away from a technically challenging track and moving toward a focus on fun. A couple of comments on here and listening to my kids feedback has reminded me that what is fun for me is often overwhelming for them. I need to remind myself that I'm designing the track for them, not me! Simply getting some miles under their belts so they are comfortable on their bike and building their stamina is becoming the primary goal of the track. I haven't given up on the challenge features, but that is becoming the side-bar instead of the focus.



> The turn you have constructed does not appear to reverse across the grade.


I either misunderstand what a grade reversal is, or the photo doesn't convey the slope change. Each turn is sloped down at the entrance then up at the exit. I do indeed have water pooling in the bottom of the curve because a sprinkler is hitting it. I'm hoping to deal with this by re-aiming the sprinkler. Actual rain is so infrequent as to be a non-issue. Time will tell if I'm being naive and will come to regret making that statement 



> Apologies if my assumptions are unwarranted! ...I hope my comments do not come across as excessively critical.


Others' ideas and critique is the point of my post and your comments are welcome.



> I applaud your willingness ...Best wishes to you in your project!


Thanks



> (My wife just rolls her eyes...


 Mine too


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

It sounds like rain driven erosion isn't the concern where you are working as it is here where I do my work. 

At the risk of being offensive, I'm going to have one more crack at it though. 

First, designing for fun and designing for challenge, while not necessarily exclusive, are fairly good first-order approximations for putting together a trail. My partner and I have spent way too many hours discussing the pros and cons of various trail features, but the one concept that seems to cut through the ambiguity is to ask, is it fun to ride? If a good case can't be made for fun, then the question becomes, "Why are we building/ignoring this?" On the other hand, if there is a way to make the trail do something interesting, or different, or unexpected in a good way, we're all about that.

It sounds like you are getting grade reversals if the elevation of the middle of the turns are below their ends. That addresses the issue of creating a long channel that water can flow down and indeed fits the definition of grade reversal as I understand it.

As you have noted, the turn tends to collect water at that low point. Perhaps that is of minor concern given the relative lack of rain in the area. In an area with significant rainfall, having water collect in the middle of the turn would not work well, especially in a clay soil.

If water collecting in the low spot was a problem, the solution that I would go after would be to orient the trail such that the middle of the turn lies directly on the fall line of the slope you are working on. 

Another way to think of it is we trail builders prefer to route trails across hillsides, with the shortest possible amount oriented directly up (or down) the fall line of that slope. Turns in this scenario exist because in most places we don't have enough land to just keep going along the face of the slope, but instead have to turn around at whatever boundary limits the trail.

If turns are added to a trail laid out to work with the slope of the land, and whatever boundaries are present, they automatically line up more or less correctly. Your situation may not allow you to follow this for excellent reasons, but that's the basic concept.

Turns oriented in this way are protected from water damage by building a grade reversal at the top. Either a mound of dirt across the trail, or a small counter-turn into the hillside will do the job. Done correctly, they force water to exit the trail.

Again, apologies if I'm underestimating your knowledge. I tend to slip into boring, offensive teacher mode when I can't talk face-to-face and get a sense of the other person's level of expertise!


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Walt Dizzy said:


> ... is it fun to ride?


Good overall goal to be sure. ...



> ...of minor concern given the relative lack of rain in the area.


I chatted with the guy monitoring the watering. He showed no interest in the track nor the impact on the track, so this may end up being an issue after all. Hopefully I can build a friendly relationship with him and find some way to help him out. Maybe over time I'll be able to foster some concern for the track. We'll see how it pans out.



> ... having water collect in the middle of the turn would not work well, especially in a clay soil.


Indeed. I took a bad spill when I tried riding one short wet section once; it was like trying to ride on wet ice. Not only could I not keep the bike upright, but pulled a groin muscle trying to catch myself while doing a nice imitation of the splits.



> ..such that the middle of the turn lies directly on the fall line of the slope you are working on. ...


If I understand correctly, this is how all of my turns are situated. The fall line intersects the apex of the corner at a right angle.



> Again, apologies if I'm underestimating your knowledge. ... and get a sense of the other person's level of expertise!


No worries. Don't know myself how to judge my own level of expertise!  and this style of trail and this soil is all new. Even when I think I know, it helps to explain it to someone to make sure I've got my head around it. Thanks again for the reply.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Possibly a drawing might clear this up:









The wavy black line at the top of the drawing represents the top of a hill. We're more or less standing at the bottom of the hill. We want to make the trail go from A to B. That's not exactly on the fall line, but way too close to fall line to be sustainable. So we add the switchback turns to the proposed trail shown as the blue line. Water doesn't collect in the middle of the turns because they are placed like teacups turned onto their sides.

Is that how you position your turns? If so, how is water getting hung up in them? That's what I'm not getting.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Three days into my trail dozer rental, what a lil beast, just can't recommend it too highly, we'll worth the price if you are short on labor. I'm a lucky guy, Sutter Equipment is located fifteen miles from my house 

I worked a 100yd section this morning, very rocky, volcanics, pretty much a conglomerate with rocks ranging from fist size to unmovable, the dozer can move boulders up to 150-200# depending on how it's "rooted". It took two hours to doze, the section, by hand it would have been days.

I'm working solo, so it's slow going, gotta move rocks that get in the way of the tracks. In three days, ~fifteen hours, I've cut over a mile of trail on moderate slopes with sage brush. It'd be faster with help and if my hill was not a damn rock pile!

Build pics to follow ...

From the drivers seat:


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> Three days into my trail dozer rental, what a lil beast, just can't recommend it too highly, we'll worth the price if you are short on labor. I'm a lucky guy, Sutter Equipment is located fifteen miles from my house
> 
> I worked a 100yd section this morning, very rocky, volcanics, pretty much a conglomerate with rocks ranging from fist size to unmovable, the dozer can move boulders up to 150-200# depending on how it's "rooted". It took two hours to doze, the section, by hand it would have been days.
> 
> ...


I gotta go reprogram the hydro controller on one of those this morning. When they work, they're great. We're blowing in 4 miles of trail with one, following that with a mini-ex for the heavy cleanup/finishing, then letting the volunteers have at some handwork. The loop will be a new turnkey nica course for TN, including an open field for staging/start/finish, appropriate grades and safety considerations. Once that loop is done, and our local SORBA chapter has more funding secured, that loop will be the foundation for (access to) a couple of nice flow/jump lines, some advanced XC stuff, and a big(ish) for this area technical descent. Once I finish the controller reprogram though, I gotta go back to breaking rocks at a the other trail.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Nurse Ben said:


> Three days into my trail dozer rental, what a lil beast, just can't recommend it too highly, we'll worth the price if you are short on labor. I'm a lucky guy, Sutter Equipment is located fifteen miles from my house
> 
> I worked a 100yd section this morning, very rocky, volcanics, pretty much a conglomerate with rocks ranging from fist size to unmovable, the dozer can move boulders up to 150-200# depending on how it's "rooted". It took two hours to doze, the section, by hand it would have been days.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are off to a good start. Is that a Sweco you are using? I am filled with envy!


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

*A very small reroute*









Today's project was a very short reroute of a section of trail. The original trail, to the left of the picture, had become chronically wet because a seep developed just above it.

The reroute, on the right side of the picture, uses the old trail as a water diversion feature. I cut a ditch (middle of the picture) that provides a defined channel for the water to drain down. The new trail crosses the ditch at right angles, and has an elevation dip at that point to prevent water from flowing down the new trail.

I'm not completely sure this fix will solve the problem, but the alternative is several times longer and would need to be switchbacked across a ravine with lots of rock in the bottom. Given the amount of rain we've had this year, it's a virtual certainty I'll know if the problem is fixed before the ground freezes.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Sutter Trail Dozer 300, 24" width, weighs 5k, six way blade, steel tracks, designed and built in NV!

After four days straight on the dozer, I'm straight up beat. Them steel tracks are not easy on the muscles and joints, more so cuz you gotta stand while operating; sore legs too.

I got these funny rashes where my thighs and forearms brace on the pads. Using knee pads to save my knees for when I brace on the radiator. 

Gotta cut a climbing trail ~ 1/2 mile and connector trail ~1/2 mile, then we'll see how much time and energy I got left. There's so much raking and rock moving on the trails I already cut, I'll be busy until spring.

From today: Turned an old dirt road into a flow trail











Walt Dizzy said:


> Sounds like you are off to a good start. Is that a Sweco you are using? I am filled with envy!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Speaking of Sutters...


__
http://instagr.am/p/BprRN3gBjTi/


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Thanks for the correction. I was not aware of this machine, looks capable of moving dirt!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Rode this morning so decided to get some time in the evening out fixing a switchback that was too sharp. Tried to use the existing cow determined turning radius and it just wasn’t working. I used a 10’ line to mark the arc then put in a solid 3 hours and made good progress. I spent a good amount of time restoring the “original” line. I am going to ride it tomorrow morning to see if I’ve done enough or if it needs more work. I know how sharp the corner was doesn’t come through that photo well not how steep of a hill it is on. I’ll post the after pic tomorrow when I put the finishing touches on it!


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

The picture does show the turn radius as being too sharp, at least to my eyes. I've gone through this process too. A 10' radius is rideable, 15' to 20' is better. 

Photographs are poor at showing slope, but the background trees give some sense that the trail is on a steep hillside.

The dirt appears to have a lot of rock, I'm guessing that bench cutting is a lot of work.

I've found out the hard way that animals don't always walk a sustainable path!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

True on cows not being very good trailbuilders  I tried to ride it twice as part of the loop over the last few days, almost got it this morning. It is "rideabe" downhill and is actually quite fun as it is hella steep. As for uphill (the primary direction), as I confirmed through one of the guys who rides the trail and is a better rider than I am, it is also rideable.

So now my question is do I keep it as a "challenge" section or do I bring it down to intermediate/borderline black level? I would guess if I sessioned it, I would clear it after some practice. I wouldn't call me the best rider or most in shape rider in the world so I am leaning towards leaving it as is, *but it will definitely stop the majority of riders on their first time through for sure in the current state.*

What is your guys' thoughts on this? For a DH section I would leave it for sure as a challenge, but I struggle with leaving at a challenging feature in a climb. It is not because it is rocky or rooty, it has 10' turning radius but the second you hit the apex of the turn the angle just kicks up STEEP and you just have to rip your cranks off with power to get up it. Seems like a slightly artificial challenge right now, but the other guy seemed to enjoy it in the current state.

Thoughts?


----------



## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

roughster said:


> True on cows not being very good trailbuilders  I tried to ride it twice as part of the loop over the last few days, almost got it this morning. It is "rideabe" downhill and is actually quite fun as it is hella steep. As for uphill (the primary direction), as I confirmed through one of the guys who rides the trail and is a better rider than I am, it is also rideable.
> 
> So now my question is do I keep it as a "challenge" section or do I bring it down to intermediate/borderline black level? I would guess if I sessioned it, I would clear it after some practice. I wouldn't call me the best rider or most in shape rider in the world so I am leaning towards leaving it as is, *but it will definitely stop the majority of riders on their first time through for sure in the current state.*
> 
> ...


I really don't like janky turns. They don't seem like a good technical feature, just makes things awkward. You have really good slope to work with, just figure out a turn radius that matches the prevailing speed and use the topography.

Do you know about Omega-shaped turns? Going uphill just before and just after the turn (like in Walt Dizzy's sketch) does a few things:
- allows water to drain before & after the turn
- increases turn radius allowing you to maintain more speed
- naturally scrubs a little speed on the up hill pieces which eliminates or reduces braking bumps.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

roughster said:


> True on cows not being very good trailbuilders  I tried to ride it twice as part of the loop over the last few days, almost got it this morning. It is "rideabe" downhill and is actually quite fun as it is hella steep. As for uphill (the primary direction), as I confirmed through one of the guys who rides the trail and is a better rider than I am, it is also rideable.
> 
> So now my question is do I keep it as a "challenge" section or do I bring it down to intermediate/borderline black level? I would guess if I sessioned it, I would clear it after some practice. I wouldn't call me the best rider or most in shape rider in the world so I am leaning towards leaving it as is, *but it will definitely stop the majority of riders on their first time through for sure in the current state.*
> 
> ...


My $0.02 is there isn't a formula to apply in this situation that will get you to an answer. The things I would consider in addition to the difficulty are:

-How much time do I have to spend on this one part of the trail? The only way I know to reduce the slope at the fall line (apex) of the turn is to move dirt from the upper section to the lower. It's a lot of work.
-Is it going to be fun to ride? Compared to other climbs anyway.
-Is it sustainable? Is the trail uphill going to shed water before it gets to the turn? Will riders spin out and kick dirt out of the turn?

Cool trail! And a beautiful piece of land.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

The Sutter 300 Trail Dozer is an amazing tool for building single track, highly recommended. Waaaay faster than a track hoe, perfect for setting the trail bed so volunteers can finish.



Walt Dizzy said:


> Thanks for the correction. I was not aware of this machine, looks capable of moving dirt!


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

This is probably the last trail work I'll do this year, until and if we get enough snow to groom.

Another really short reroute. The original trail is on the right, covered with some of the brush I chopped out of the reroute. Mostly honeysuckle and buckthorn.

The trail I replaced was new as of 6 weeks ago, but even more rain than we had previously activated a seep directly under the tread.

I love the photos I'm seeing in this thread with sunshine. Its the season of overcast and rain where I live. If we're lucky though, it may freeze hard enough by the weekend for some riding.


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Like grade reversals, it's reall hard to have too many or to have a turn that is too big.

I "freehanded" all of my turns, using the natural turn radius of the dozer to help me gauge what is reasonable.

Bigger turns take more work, but they also prevent riders pushing out the edges and causing issues down the road.

Of course you can be "mean" and make people learn how to ride tight radius turns 

I got all my dozer work done for this season, now it's raking and building features.



Walt Dizzy said:


> The picture does show the turn radius as being too sharp, at least to my eyes. I've gone through this process too. A 10' radius is rideable, 15' to 20' is better.
> 
> Photographs are poor at showing slope, but the background trees give some sense that the trail is on a steep hillside.
> 
> ...


----------



## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

Realignment of a corner on Springboard, a green flow trail in the Alsea Falls trail system in the mid-Willamette Valley in Oregon. The work is paid for by donations from riders all over the state who have come to support us during shuttle day fundraisers.

Looking down the trail at the new entrance. Old entrance was to the right of the tree in the middle of the photo; riders would brake hard coming into a left-hand stopper/berm below that tree, go up and left, and then reach the berm and turn down and right. We called it the "corner of death".









Looking up the trail at the exit. This is pretty much the same as before.


----------



## evan yo! (Jul 11, 2007)

Trailforks has a cool new(ish) feature to show photos from work reports.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Okay, I promised a follow-up, so here it is! I am officially done messing with it. I plan on going out after work with the tamper and just smashing this **** out of everything. It is very dry so not sure how effective it will be, but it will have to do until we get some rain here in NorCal.

Overall I added a grade reversal right before the entrance (bottom / right side of picture slightly out of the field of vision of the picture), another small one right before the actual turn, and another at the top of the turn (clearly visible). Given the steepness of the turn I enlarged the turning radius to 12 feet and dug the trail straight down about a foot but sloped down and with several small channels to help control water runoff. 

I will be riding it tomorrow morning and am looking forward to seeing how it feels. I know DH it is going to be badass as it was already good and the work I did earlier will only make it better / more smooth. I will be curious how much "easier" it will be. 

I still don't think it will be super easy as it is still pretty steep, but most intermediate advanced riders should be able to power up it now "onsight".


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Great pics and description, thanks Roughster.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

On the hike out to work on a stretch that needs some tread love, I had a moment of inspiration and figured out a way to get part of the trail that was on a fire road off onto singletrack. With minimal effort it is now already rideable and extends the trail by almost 0.5 miles without any doublebacks. Has some sweet rock features and a rock garden. Rode it 3 times this morning as a loop. I'll try to get some pics of it tomorrow. Now if I can just make it up to where I should be working on without extending the trail more ... lol.


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Sounds lovely, how 'bout a pic or two


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Couldn’t get too crazy with working on the trail as the smoke was terrible (158 AQI). Decided to build a little jump. It was a fun little diversion


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Looks fun. Wish I could send you some of our rain. Hope the fires are contained soon.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

The switchback curves around a shoulder so it's impossible to get a full picture unless I buy a drone, hehe. The original line took a cow created fall line almost straight up about a 20% grade. It was doable but already forming a channel from water run off.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Still out playing in the rocks myself. Multiple pictures of the process of building a line up one of the shelves on property:


__
http://instagr.am/p/BqODedgFapE/

A bunch of random pictures I took walking out of the trail one evening to really give an idea of the flavor of the property. Also, several good shots of Zack carrying my chainsaw..


__
http://instagr.am/p/BqOEA7sFzzt/


----------



## JustMtnB44 (Nov 8, 2004)

My crew has been working on tuning up existing trails in our city park.

Rebuilding berms on our most flowy trail to actually be useful.
























Building boardwalk bridges over perpetually wet seep areas, now that it is mud season again.








I wish we could send our rain over to CA in exchange for some dry weather!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Looks like heavy lifting Cotharyus. Defintely can see the potential!

JustMtnB44: Those berms look sweet, love the before and after. 

With the rain falling pretty hard in NorCal I'll be walking the trail each day to see where there are water retention issues.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Hah, I just rode the trail in muddy ass sloppy conditions on my Trek Farley Ex8 (27.5" x 3.8"). OMG it was a blast! A few of the chunkier sections ... I ... uhhh ... sessioned ... with three or four passes that left an amazingly awesome trail surface. Anyone else using their fat bike for this purpose? 

Super stoked to get out tomorrow with slightly firmed conditions and a horde of local riders to pound those chunky sections into submission! 

I should've got some pics of the before and after but didn't


----------



## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

Mount Orford provincial park, Quebec. 11km of new mountain bike / fatbike trail. It's the first time ever that mountain bike is developed in a provincial park here so this pilot project had to be completed before winter...


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Cotharyus said:


> Still out playing in the rocks myself. Multiple pictures of the process of building a line up one of the shelves on property:
> 
> 
> __
> ...


Very nice!

Looks like the sedimentary rock where I work. Perhaps not easy to shape, but plentiful.

Also, it's nice to have someone else carry the chainsaw.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Walt Dizzy said:


> Very nice!
> 
> Looks like the sedimentary rock where I work. Perhaps not easy to shape, but plentiful.
> 
> Also, it's nice to have someone else carry the chainsaw.


Yeah, it's all limestone. I've had pretty good luck getting it to split or break cleanly enough to make straight edges or whatever shapes I need to get stuff built, but yeah, sometimes it just does it's own thing, especially if you hit it with a hammer. Some of these rocks just bust into gravel if you drop them. Don't think I get off easy when someone else carries the saw though. I probably had some hand tools or a big hammer drill.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Cotharyus said:


> Yeah, it's all limestone. I've had pretty good luck getting it to split or break cleanly enough to make straight edges or whatever shapes I need to get stuff built, but yeah, sometimes it just does it's own thing, especially if you hit it with a hammer. Some of these rocks just bust into gravel if you drop them. Don't think I get off easy when someone else carries the saw though. I probably had some hand tools or a big hammer drill.


Seems like there's always more to carry than I'd like. Until I get to the work site and find I'm missing a tool that would have been handy. I bought a pack frame from Cabellas this spring. I didn't get around to the more remote rock work I'd planned, so it sat unused. Until the fall when I could no longer put off completing the approach ramps to a bridge which was relocated early in the season. Then I needed it to move ~700 lbs of planks.

The rocks where I work vary between ordinary limestone, to what I think are dolomitic schists. Not certain I have the name correct, but they tend to fracture erratically. Difficult to shape. Unfortunate, because I want to split rocks for the many streambed crossings I need to armor. We may end up buying rocks for an extremely rocky park!

The big ones are fun to ride over, so there is that.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

HypNoTic said:


> Mount Orford provincial park, Quebec. 11km of new mountain bike / fatbike trail. It's the first time ever that mountain bike is developed in a provincial park here so this pilot project had to be completed before winter...
> 
> Do you work when the ground is frozen? Anyway, congrats on your new, groundbreaking (pun intended) project!


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

roughster said:


> Hah, I just rode the trail I am building in muddy ass sloppy conditions on my Trek Farley Ex8 (27.5" x 3.8"). OMG it was a blast! A few of the chunkier sections ... I ... uhhh ... sessioned ... with three or four passes that left an amazingly awesome trail surface. Anyone else using their fat bike for this purpose?
> 
> Super stoked to get out tomorrow with slightly firmed conditions and a horde of local riders to pound those chunky sections into submission!
> 
> I should've got some pics of the before and after but didn't  This will give you a good idea of the conditions!


Excellent to hear your area has received some rain. I'd send you some of ours if I could.

With hand built trail, bike wheels are definitely part of the finishing process.

Given enough time, I would prefer to always build trail that is as close to completely finished as possible. Some times however, less is more.

In my park, there is one trail we have been able to keep open most of the summer, despite more rain than we have ever had before. However, the initial quarter mile is comprised of multi-use trail that has a truly awful mud hole over a hundred yards long. In previous years, the mud hole dried up in late spring. The last two years it has been a mess most of the riding season.

Several years ago, I was dragooned into maintaining the snowshoe trails in the park. Just by coincidence, one of the snowshoe trail segments happens to parallel, in a very rough way, the part of the multi-use trail with the huge mud hole. And the snow shoe track is significantly drier, though not perfect.

Note this is in an area of the park affected by a lawsuit I would be wise not to explain in great detail. No new trail construction will be approved until all the legal questions are resolved.

I asked the park manager if he would allow us to use the snowshoe track for bikes, at least on a temporary basis, and he allowed it. Very good outcome for everyone! The snowshoe trail will be maintained on an on-going basis, and we get a way to ride around the mud!

The snowshoe track is far from what I would consider finished bike trail. But by being satisfied with something of mediocre quality (for now), I have solved a larger problem.


----------



## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

Walt Dizzy said:


> Do you work when the ground is frozen? Anyway, congrats on your new, groundbreaking (pun intended) project!


We had 2 months of rain followed by 12in of snow overnight so it isolate the soil and it doesn't really freeze. If you remove the snow, the top 1in is frozen. But it's a muddy mess shaping stuff with snow. Everything stick to the bucket and if it get really cold overnight (we had a few -10f during the job), it may take 2h to start the machines in the morning : blowtorch to warm up the traction drives, jackhammer to free the tracks from the ground, SDS drill to break the ice, etc. Right now, there's close to 3ft of snow over there and I headed at the park today to take out the last 2 machines.

We had 5 mini-x, 1 skid steer, 1 dumper and a crew of 12 guys on that job for 10 weeks.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

HypNoTic said:


> We had 2 months of rain followed by 12in of snow overnight so it isolate the soil and it doesn't really freeze. If you remove the snow, the top 1in is frozen. But it's a muddy mess shaping stuff with snow. Everything stick to the bucket and if it get really cold overnight (we had a few -10f during the job), it may take 2h to start the machines in the morning : blowtorch to warm up the traction drives, jackhammer to free the tracks from the ground, SDS drill to break the ice, etc. Right now, there's close to 3ft of snow over there and I headed at the park today to take out the last 2 machines.
> 
> We had 5 mini-x, 1 skid steer, 1 dumper and a crew of 12 guys on that job for 10 weeks.


That sounds very challenging. I can't get anything done when the dirt sticks to my tools. Let alone break through frozen dirt. I'll stay with building my trails by hand when it's above freezing.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Walt Dizzy said:


> That sounds very challenging. I can't get anything done when the dirt sticks to my tools. Let alone break through frozen dirt. I'll stay with building my trails by hand when it's above freezing.


Yeah, it gets tough when it gets cold. Fortunately, I don't have to deal with too much of that here in Tennessee. Actually, where I'm working right now, mostly there isn't even enough dirt to stick to tools. Just rock....


__
http://instagr.am/p/Bq0zeN0lRJz/


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Cotharyus said:


> Yeah, it gets tough when it gets cold. Fortunately, I don't have to deal with too much of that here in Tennessee. Actually, where I'm working right now, mostly there isn't even enough dirt to stick to tools. Just rock....
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/Bq0zeN0lRJz/


That's some beautiful land. The rocks appear challenging to work with. Lots of opportunity to make cool lines though. I like riding trails like that.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Walt Dizzy said:


> That's some beautiful land. The rocks appear challenging to work with. Lots of opportunity to make cool lines though. I like riding trails like that.


The rocks vary in how challenging they are to do anything with. Some of them are pretty solid, some want to split in layers, and others basically shatter into gravel if you drop them, or hit them with another rock. This property is like nothing else in this part of the state, and I've been stoked about this project since I walked this property Feb of '17. We didn't get the go ahead to build until this summer, and I've had some of these lines stewing in my head for a year or more. It's so cool to get out here and find ways to make some of this stuff work, or even to discover that it won't work, but just a little ways away is something that is just as cool, and will work. Unfortunately, it will be way too intimidating for some riders in this area, but I think others around here are craving this sort of trail.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Cotharyus said:


> The rocks vary in how challenging they are to do anything with. Some of them are pretty solid, some want to split in layers, and others basically shatter into gravel if you drop them, or hit them with another rock. This property is like nothing else in this part of the state, and I've been stoked about this project since I walked this property Feb of '17. We didn't get the go ahead to build until this summer, and I've had some of these lines stewing in my head for a year or more. It's so cool to get out here and find ways to make some of this stuff work, or even to discover that it won't work, but just a little ways away is something that is just as cool, and will work. Unfortunately, it will be way too intimidating for some riders in this area, but I think others around here are craving this sort of trail.


Not every rider wants to develop the skills to enjoy extremely rocky trail. It's just the nature of the sport.

My club runs the biggest short-course racing event in the state, which has one of the biggest race series in the country. Riders are mostly racers focused on fast lap times. The park I have devoted my building efforts toward is the red-headed step child of the area. While it has one trail that is only very hilly (~1000' of elevation change in ~4 miles), the rest varies between quite rocky to extremely rocky.

Thank you Cotharyus, for having the vision to build trails that challenge and inspire us to find a different way to enjoy riding. I like riding almost any kind of singletrack, but rocky, challenging trail will always have a special place in my heart.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Walt Dizzy said:


> Not every rider wants to develop the skills to enjoy extremely rocky trail. It's just the nature of the sport.
> 
> My club runs the biggest short-course racing event in the state, which has one of the biggest race series in the country. Riders are mostly racers focused on fast lap times. The park I have devoted my building efforts toward is the red-headed step child of the area. While it has one trail that is only very hilly (~1000' of elevation change in ~4 miles), the rest varies between quite rocky to extremely rocky.
> 
> Thank you Cotharyus, for having the vision to build trails that challenge and inspire us to find a different way to enjoy riding. I like riding almost any kind of singletrack, but rocky, challenging trail will always have a special place in my heart.


Thanks Walt. I'm just doing what I love.


----------



## Wacha Wacha Wacha (Sep 27, 2017)

Some long over due maintenance on the local trails. General use, ruts, brake bumps and erosion have all been making their mark on the trails. Compound that with the tropical climate and rainy season (remember that scene in Forrest Gump?? - like that), you can imagine how bad these trails got. The builders spent a month building/upgrading/developing trails for a huge race on another island and thus, the rest of us normies were left to our own devices which, sad to say, was pitiful maintenance! The experts have since returned and have been hard at work on our favorite lines!

The first set of shots shows repair to an opening drop at the top of the trail. A month of neglect has caused an crazy fun 3' drop turn into a sad roll-in at best. The drop is at the top right after a steep, rooty shoot. After the drop is an awesome right hand berm that drops into another steep shoot sending you into a small table. The first image shows the drop-in being reformed by cutting back into the soil. The second image is just after the steep shoot letting you line up your drop. The brake bumps and ruts have already been corrected. The third shot? TEST!!! :cornut:

























The next image is general maintenance on neglected lines and berms. The berms are in better shape than I expected but the brake bumps before and ruts than ran through are being smoothed over. The first image shows the us pulling earth over to reinforce that left-turn berm. The other two images show the progression of work smoothing out the relatively straight section of trail.

























The image below shows us installing a new feature. Just before a root section, we thought it would be fun to add a new drop. It won't send you as far as the one above, but you can see you are coming off a now well manicured, right-hand berm. This short drop lands you right before the dude in the blue shirt (which is the start of the root section). Although I imagine with enough speed you can carry all the way over and land directly into the root section (hmmm... maybe it needs a lip??) The section is not too steep but after the root section, there's are a set of smaller tables allowing you to really get a diverse feel for mountain biking!









Haven't ridden this line yet but I'm heading back tomorrow! Ride report shall come!!


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Java?


----------



## Wacha Wacha Wacha (Sep 27, 2017)

ki5ka said:


> Java?


Yup


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Wacha Wacha Wacha said:


> Yup


Explains the working postures, grub hoe, and pointy straw hat. Good to see!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Wacha,

That trail looks great! How long is it?


----------



## Wacha Wacha Wacha (Sep 27, 2017)

roughster said:


> Wacha, That trail looks great! How long is it?


Thanks! Although I can't take all the credit...

The photos represent the first 300-400 meters of trail. The entire trails is a hair under 2 miles at an average of -14% grade.

I rode the trail yesterday 5 times and it is a blast. The fresh loam, berms, and drops were perfectly placed and thought through. We took some more photo's of areas further down the trail of areas that need some more work so they'll be at it again all week. They also have a few plans for some new features. Photos to come!


----------



## Wacha Wacha Wacha (Sep 27, 2017)

Update on the rebuild. This is part of the flow section which is the last section of uphill before you drop into a root garden and a -12% snake trail complete with optional drops. The original builders kept this flat, likely because it required a bunch of benching to build a berm. You can see it's pretty steep off to the left and most riders, as evident of the rut, make a close call with veering off the trail and into the ferns way below!










But with a berm, it's got a lot of potential to turn an otherwise boring corner into a high speed transition. It pitches down and with a berm you can rail out of it and get to the top of the pitch without so much as a ratchet. Drainage will certainly be a problem with a berm so in the case of maintenance, it's probably going to be a headache without the right materials... time will certainly tell.

Berm addition completed this morning!










Now the exit. Since we had to build the berm on benching, the rider ultimately ends up exiting the berm quickly towards the high side of the hill where the cut out for the trail has been made. Fortunately for us, there are no rocks on that face so we built an awesome exit transition so the rider can gap to an optional wall ride. (The rider can choose to hit the wall or just land back on the trail.)










This feature should make the turn faster and the trail experience more fun for riders of every skill level. More updates to come!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Solid work! Any idea of how the water drain from the inner cut of that turn?


----------



## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

Something we built this summer.









For full effect, check out the last portion of this video
https://ifht.tv/blogs/news/chasing-waterfalls-quebec


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

HypNoTic said:


> Something we built this summer.
> 
> View attachment 1228350
> 
> ...


Wow! You guys are really knocking it out of the park at VBN. Gotta try to get out your way this year. 

A foot and a half of snow since Thursday has ended my trail building until the end of April or so. Winter is here and they're already grooming the trails for fatbiking. The trail I posted pictures of earlier in the thread is awesome in the winter, the ground work that isn't finished doesn't matter with 3 feet of snowpack on it. Hahaha!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Yeah, I watched this video and thought it looked amazing! Great job!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Well, earlier up thread, I was plotting a new section of trail that was half-pipe'ish. I might expand a few of the corners radius further up the hill and broader to allow for more transition of speed, but this section has been met with universal approval by everyone who has rode it. Definitely a fun stretch!


----------



## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

Was like potting soil out there today. Slowly but surely this local gem is turning into a sick trail.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

RBoardman said:


> Was like potting soil out there today. Slowly but surely this local gem is turning into a sick trail.


Nice RB that looks great!


----------



## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Had to make a section of climb rideable and put in a switchback this weekend. Been dreading it but it turned out to only take 6 hours of labor.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Schulze said:


> Had to make a section of climb rideable and put in a switchback this weekend. Been dreading it but it turned out to only take 6 hours of labor.
> ...
> And the next switchback on the list, hopefully the last one for a few miles. With the turn and the slope, what you see here is totally unrideable!


Wow man, nice work! I have a switchback I need to work on that I too have procrastinated on for a bit. You might have just inspired me!

I have been working on a new loop on a neighboring hillside that will connect to my existing trail and eventually add another 7-8 miles. I have walked a short "backbone" loop at ~4 miles, cut back the corridor, and weed wacked about 70% of it. I rode the new loop the other day in the rain and it was fun but hella sketchy given conditions. Definitely helped me see where I need to do more work.

We will be getting rain in NorCal for the next week or so it looks, so digging would be perfect, but I am SWAMPED at work, so we'll see if I can make any progress! I'll try to grab some pictures if I do manage to get some work done!


----------



## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Cool. Post pics of your progress!


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

Schulze said:


> Cool. Post pics of your progress!


Dirt!


----------



## clockwork (Dec 9, 2006)

just a few teasers


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Looks fun!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Ughh.. I rode / hiked the local trail system this weekend and the cows have absolutely destroyed the trail surface on probably 75% of the 12 miles in. /cry :madman:

Here's a little taste:









I ordered a rogue hoe 70HR to help with the clean up. I am hoping this will be the magic bullet to maximize impact and reduce the time needed to get these trails back into shape once the cows are pulled.

How's your local trails holding up?


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

roughster said:


> Ughh.. I rode / hiked the local trail system this weekend and the cows have absolutely destroyed the trail surface on probably 75% of the 12 miles in. /cry :madman:
> 
> Here's a little taste:
> 
> ...


****, that's nasty. Sorry to see it, nice kick in the teeth for you after all the work you put into it.

Our trails are snow covered and will be until at least mid-April. I can sort of feel your pain here when we have a snowfall and people hike the trails without snowshoes before we can get the groomers out and create deep foot sized holes in the snow. Makes the riding really hard, especially on a rigid fat bike. We call it post holing. We don't get this kind of thing in the summer as the ground is very rocky and there's very little actual soil. We also don't have herds of cows wandering around. 

Would a hand tamper help compact the tread down enough that cow hooves wouldn't sink in even when wet? Though that's a lot of tread to tamp. I use one like this when building transitions for steep rolls, drops and jumps and once the soil is compacted it's very resistant to damage, but these are short sections and the only hoofed mammals they see is the occasional moose.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Yeah it's all about the timing. I have a tamper that I have used with some success, but it really depends on "when" the rancher pulls the cows. If it rains around the time he pulls the cows (usually in late March / early April), I can use it to "mush" down the ridges. If it hasn't rained in awhile and he pulls them, that "mud" literally turns into hard cement and requires a pick to break up. I'm praying for rain right after he pulls them, but that has only happened once in the last few years, lol.


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

roughster said:


> Ughh.. I rode / hiked the local trail system this weekend and the cows have absolutely destroyed the trail surface on probably 75% of the 12 miles in. /cry :madman:
> 
> Here's a little taste:
> 
> ...


Maybe you could use something like this. 1976 Troy Bilt Horse. I modded the tines to make it a root cutting machine. It worked great but I have an idea to make it more effective and easier to handle. After the first pass I can do it one handed walking off to the side.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

karthur said:


> Maybe you could use something like this. 1976 Troy Bilt Horse. I modded the tines to make it a root cutting machine. It worked great but I have an idea to make it more effective and easier to handle. After the first pass I can do it one handed walking off to the side.


That is a thing of beauty! The property I am working on is pretty steep hillside. I've often wondered about using a machine instead of sweat equity!


----------



## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

I have cows, too, and I've learned to put only a thin layer of tread over a rocky base so their hooves don't sink in too much. In wet weather they sink in the deep soil sections but we don't have too much wet weather. I just ride over it. 

A lot of my trails just needed to be trimmed of brush because the cows stomped a path already, saving me a lot of work. So I can't get too mad at them.


----------



## twd953 (Aug 21, 2008)

Schulze said:


> My post a few months ago about using logs instead of rocks was about this part, which is below the big berm. I opted to go for rocks.


I think that was the right call. You've clearly got the rocks available to do it, and properly done rock work will last many generations. Around my neck of the woods, burying logs might last you 5-7 years before they rot away in our wet climate and you have to redo it.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Schulze said:


> I have cows, too, and I've learned to put only a thin layer of tread over a rocky base so their hooves don't sink in too much. In wet weather they sink in the deep soil sections but we don't have too much wet weather. I just ride over it.
> 
> A lot of my trails just needed to be trimmed of brush because the cows stomped a path already, saving me a lot of work. So I can't get too mad at them.


Hah Schulze, I have a saying, "The cows giveth... and the cows taketh away!"

Every year it gets a little better across most of the system as the trail really gets packed in hard. A few sections, like the one pictured above, are natural seeps so I think my only option will be start dragging in rock as you mention.

Regardless, we are getting rain this weekend around these parts (NorCal) so no use crying over spilt milk! It's going to get a whole lot worse, before it gets better!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

My trail needs to go straight through this mess lol!









This is what I mean when I say trails are made with sweat equity!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Couple more instagram links to click, if you're looking for some sweat equity for trail. First link, we're bumping a little plate around to take off the edge of this shelf...


__
http://instagr.am/p/BtMu-ornP1N/

Second picture the plate being moved in the first picture is in place - the ramp down on the lefthand side of this picture. For perspective, that plate is 9ish feet long and ramping a 4 foot or 4.5 foot shelf.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BtPauX5FC3x/


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Cotharyus said:


> ....we're bumping a little plate around to take off the edge of this shelf...


OMG, I love it! That looks like fun


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

It is here! It's got some heft, I can see making some nice smooth banked turns with this bad boy!









Just need to get the damn cows out of there!


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

Good stuff everybody! I wish I had y'all's elevation changes. Here is some fresh dirt for you. Riding it to make sure I berm up the right spots.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Looking hella swoopy, I love it!


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

Does this count? Temporary trail work. Shaped up all of the rock roll transitions on this trail for winter riding. Now I know what the transition needs to look like in the summer, though.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Took the rogue hoe out for its maiden voyage to “shave down” some of the cow postholes. Have to say, probably the best tool I have used for that purpose. It’s hefy enough to be able to dig when needed and sharp enough to shave the unwanted dirt irregularities on the tread. I made pretty quick work of one mile of section (10% done!), but I am feeling it a little in my back this morning. Since it has a long handle, I need to resist the urge to pull with a full blade swing as this translate the force straight to my back.


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

I need that pink shovel


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Crazy what you find rooting around the existing system. With a minor modification accomplished by hand, I was able to add in a cool tech / rock feature. Don’t ask me why I didn’t get a picture, but I didn’t. Next time out! I plan on working on the trail tomorrow for a bit.


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

roughster said:


> Don't ask me why I didn't get a picture.


Why didn't you get a picture? Sorry, couldn't resist


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Rode the loop in reverse and this time remembered to get a few pictures of the new tech section:

Goes across a rock garden on a ridge into an off camber chute that you bounce across the surface of embedded boulders towards a small drop. The drop is in essence two natural steps you can see at the bottom. There is a fin of rock that pushes you towards a larger boulder and makes it a bit awkward but not overly hard. Super fun!


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

roughster said:


> Rode the loop in reverse and this time remembered to get a few pictures of the new tech section:


Great pics! Thanks  Looks like a really fun bit.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

ki5ka said:


> Great pics! Thanks  Looks like a really fun bit.


Yep a fun section that also adds another 50 yards of slalomy DH chutes into a section called Let's Get Rowdy which is about half mile of some of the best stretch of trail in the loop. I am gambling a little bit working on the trail as cows are still on the property by the rancher has isolated them to just half of it. Of course I am working on the assumption he will corral them without letting back over. We'll see /fingers crossed!


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

ki5ka said:


> I need that pink shovel


Hahaha! I stole it from my 7 year old daughter. Don't think you'd find it very useful for anything other than light snow duty, though. 



roughster said:


> Rode the loop in reverse and this time remembered to get a few pictures of the new tech section:
> 
> Goes across a rock garden on a ridge into an off camber chute that you bounce across the surface of embedded boulders towards a small drop. The drop is in essence two natural steps you can see at the bottom. There is a fin of rock that pushes you towards a larger boulder and makes it a bit awkward but not overly hard. Super fun!
> 
> ...


This looks like a nice little feature/section. :thumbsup:


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Hiked a bit with the rogue hoe in hand to do some drainage work as well as start clearing a new section. Stayed out longer than I should've and ended up stumbling back down the hill after dark. Won't make that same mistake tonight!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Who doesn’t love that new trail smell? Freshly turned earth. The new section is just speaking to my soul.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

This section will be a trail highlight for sure. Fast, flowy, downhill to a swoopy low angle climb. Peeps gonna freak


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

roughster said:


> I completed the new section. Had a riding partner volunteer to help and between him and I did 3/4 of the bench of the 0.5 miles in one session. I finished the rest and compacted the tread today. This section will be a trail highlight for sure. Fast, flowy, downhill, with banked turns, even a perfectly built jump, to a swoopy low angle climb. Peeps gonna freak
> 
> View attachment 1240216


Wow! Good work and beautiful spot/pic.


----------



## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

My group has been doing finish work for a new bike-optimizes directional trail on city land. A contractor did the heavy work with a mini-excavator, and we followed with rakes and pick mattocks. It's wide now, but the entire tread was broadcast seeded with native grasses. It'll grow in to whatever width traffic holds open. Anyway, some photos:


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Nice pics, thanks


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Woke up at 3:30AM and couldnt go back to sleep. Finally at 5AM decided to get up and do a quick trail session.

Objective:
- Clean out a big patch of Italian thistle that is springing up in one section. I have been watching it take hold in morbid procrastination.
- Take out the goats head (Yellow starthistle - Centaurea solstitialis L) along a section by the creek that I usually wait till they grow up then use a big hedge trimmer to clip at the ground. Decided to try cutting them at the root in spring to see if it prevents growth.

Mission accomplished on both. Didn't get a picture of the Italian thistle carnage as it was still dark and I was working by headlamp. I did clip out probably 75 goats heads emerging plants that look like:










and end up looking like:










Feeling rather productive, but of course now I need to go to work, lol!


----------



## CoachTWM (Feb 14, 2019)

*Just finished...pretty steep area.*


----------



## CoachTWM (Feb 14, 2019)

*A lower section of the same trail, I'm calling the Rabbit Hole.*


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

CoachTWM said:


> View attachment 1245414


Looks awesome! Love this half pipe swoops!


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to roughster again."

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to evasive again."



Oh man, all of these pics are really getting me stoked for building again. It's still at least 2 weeks away, though. Even though all of the snow in exposed areas is gone, snow cover is still extensive in the woods.


----------



## ray.vermette (Jul 16, 2008)

HypNoTic said:


> Something we built this summer.
> 
> View attachment 1228350
> 
> ...


Bonjour Jerome,

Quel sentier? It looks like Neilson, but I don't remember anything this steep.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Finally settled in on a "finished" loop design for my first trail system.

Focus now will be to get the trail surface all back into shape. I rode the entire loop yesterday and it is a leg buster. While only 2,400', it is a tough ride especially in the current state of cow post-holes and grass. Still some great riding even in the condition it is in and once I get it back to running smooth, woohoo!

My focus was to maximize mileage with no double-backs, as well as make it "mostly" ride-able in both directions. Mission accomplished!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Found some new features to jump on my trail. Fast and smooth. Neither are really "lippy", but more of little inclines with drops to fast transitions.
Just smooth sailing down the trail.


----------



## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

Working on a 1.3 mile trail locally after 7 years of paperwork to get it approved. Lots of rock is needed to reinforce the steep. The bigger the rock, the less it moves. Here is about half of what we have moved for one feature. LOVE our motorized wheelbarrow.


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

Pictures aren't the best but I did a bunch of minor stuff like this on my trails. This is part of an old logging road on the farm, the single track needed plenty of clearing too.


----------



## JustMtnB44 (Nov 8, 2004)

We played in the mud yesterday and built a 30 feet long boardwalk over a very muddy water seep area. This trail isn't new but this section has a been a problem for many years, so after trying other methods of drainage this was the last resort solution. The dip leading up to it will probably need more work, and we've even discussed boardwalking the whole thing. There are at least 8 spots in this 100' section of trail where water either pours out of the ground or runs across it for more than half of the year.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Nice! Looks awesome!


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

clockwork said:


> just a few teasers
> 
> View attachment 1232793
> 
> ...


Oh dang Clockwork! Where abouts is this now?


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

Little Elden Trail. Flagstaff, AZ.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

raisingarizona said:


> Little Elden Trail. Flagstaff, AZ.


Looks rad man, nice job! Is that hand or machine dug?


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

Thanks roughster. 

So far it's all been hand built. The next leg we are doing machine work then for a bit after that section that we are currently working on is more hand built. It's got some technical rock work for crossing washes and some difficult terrain then the last stretch will hopefully be all machine built.


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

roughster said:


> I completed the new section. Had a riding partner volunteer to help and between him and I did 3/4 of the bench of the 0.5 miles in one session. I finished the rest and compacted the tread today. This section will be a trail highlight for sure. Fast, flowy, downhill, with banked turns, even a perfectly built jump, to a swoopy low angle climb. Peeps gonna freak
> 
> View attachment 1240216


That's a beautiful place you are building in!


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

Cotharyus said:


> Couple more instagram links to click, if you're looking for some sweat equity for trail. First link, we're bumping a little plate around to take off the edge of this shelf...
> 
> 
> __
> ...


Monster rocks! Nice work!


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

JustMtnB44 said:


> We played in the mud yesterday and built a 30 feet long boardwalk over a very muddy water seep area. This trail isn't new but this section has a been a problem for many years, so after trying other methods of drainage this was the last resort solution. The dip leading up to it will probably need more work, and we've even discussed boardwalking the whole thing. There are at least 8 spots in this 100' section of trail where water either pours out of the ground or runs across it for more than half of the year.
> 
> View attachment 1249161
> 
> ...


I'm not a fan of woodwork but this looks like an instance where it really makes sense. It doesn't look like there's any rocks to do rock armoring in there either. What kind of wood are you using?


----------



## JustMtnB44 (Nov 8, 2004)

raisingarizona said:


> I'm not a fan of woodwork but this looks like an instance where it really makes sense. It doesn't look like there's any rocks to do rock armoring in there either. What kind of wood are you using?


We use regular pressure treated lumber available from Home Depot. 4x6's for the stringers and ground supports, and 2x6's for the decking.

The ground seep is so bad in this area that it would require a raised rock causeway at least a foot thick to get out of the muck.

There are rocks in this area, just not good ones. They are either too small to be effective, too large or too buried to move without special equipment, or too crumbly to last a long time.
Here is another section of this same trail about 100 yards away with some rock armoring.


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

roughster said:


> Looks rad man, nice job! Is that hand or machine dug?


thanks. These sections were hand built. We are hand finishing some machine build this week.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Doing some work around Chattanooga. Tasked with building a connector to some new gravity trail, it's wider than I'd normally build, but they specifically requested to be able to run the EMS side by side down this trail, and that's legit.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BxIyKKYAb57/


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

raisingarizona said:


> Little Elden Trail. Flagstaff, AZ.


Very nice.



JustMtnB44 said:


> We played in the mud yesterday and built a 30 feet long boardwalk over a very muddy water seep area. This trail isn't new but this section has a been a problem for many years, so after trying other methods of drainage this was the last resort solution. The dip leading up to it will probably need more work, and we've even discussed boardwalking the whole thing. There are at least 8 spots in this 100' section of trail where water either pours out of the ground or runs across it for more than half of the year.
> 
> View attachment 1249161
> 
> ...


Nice looking wood work there! I don't know if you have any local saw mills but we usually use rough cut lumber from a small local mill for bridges. It's heavier duty than standard dimensional lumber (i.e. a 2x4 is actually 2x4), it already has a rough surface so you don't need to add wire or cut grooves in in for grip and it's less than half the price of pressure treated.



Cotharyus said:


> Doing some work around Chattanooga. Tasked with building a connector to some new gravity trail, it's wider than I'd normally build, but they specifically requested to be able to run the EMS side by side down this trail, and that's legit.
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BxIyKKYAb57/


Indeed.


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

I finally got the transition sorted out for the rock section I posted about last fall. It took 3 separate build sessions to get it sorted out. This is what it looked like before and the transition was pretty harsh and sucked up a lot of speed. I wanted to be able to carry speed through to the next little rock roll so you could jump it if you wanted. I was able to do this in the winter with a bit of snow so I had an idea what I wanted it to look like from that.










First, the big rocks that set the shape of the transition. We are blessed with lots and lots of rock so it was pretty easy to dig up a couple with lots of mass but one pretty flat side:



















Then the smaller rocks to serve as a foundation for the tail end of the transition. Didn't need to embed really big rocks because I used that piece of 2x6 to bound it on one side and the other is heavy clay so it won't move anyway:










And finally, the dirt. 20 or so buckets in total. I also topped up the transition of the second roll (can see it in the last pic) because it had a little dip in it. The good thing about the clay soil here is that it has lots of pebbles in it and once it drys it's like concrete. which makes it great for both tread and for sticking rock work together. I bought a 10x10 tamper and packed it down pretty good but it will need a few dry days and another session with the tamper before it will be hard enough to ride.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

A little more more trail. A little east coast style exposure. A little rock.


__
http://instagr.am/p/Bxnxq2_nk9H/


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Wow that looks awesome. For some reason the cows are STILL on the hill with the trail. Ughhh really makes me want to wait as I don't like to waste effort


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

I finally got to ride the section above and mission accomplished! The first roller now rides like butter and allows you to carry enough speed to jump the second one. Really happy with how it turned out.


----------



## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

L. Ron Hoover, very nice work.


----------



## L. Ron Hoover (Feb 1, 2006)

Boulder Pilot said:


> L. Ron Hoover, very nice work.


Thanks! It's really satisfying when a piece of trail comes together.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated... Work has been busy but had a few hours early to get some trail work done. Cows had mucked up one of the sections so I went out and fixed it. After that cleaned up a creek crossing (now dry), trimmed a small corridor section and hacked out some nasty thistle / goats heads. Riding it tomorrow and looking forward to this section instead of loathing it!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Some how in my mind it can be too hot to ride ! Oh and fun fact of the day, yellow jackets can build nests in the ground and can sting you as many times they want say if they get stuck in your gloves or under your shirt ...

Pulled weeds and thistle on my way to a section I am cleaning up from cow damage. This section has a chance to be a highlight section of the system given it is a short mini loop with decent elevation changes. Semi rideable. After you ride them a few times you work on the corners and the entries to try and allow for maximum speed carry, that’s where I am right now.

Did some more smoothing, weed pulling, and maintenance on the trail. Still probably have 2-3 more sessions before the whole semi loop is back up to diamond caliber riding, but it will be there soon


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

A quick vid to document the DH sections of new trail put in over the last 2-3 years.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

A section of new route in the Zuni Mountains, sweet little piece of trail.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Nice! Reminds me of a cool quote:


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

So that’s 12 hours over 3 days on probably a 100 yard stretch. Riding it tomorrow, it had better have been worth it! Haha if not I can only blame myself.


----------



## Wacha Wacha Wacha (Sep 27, 2017)

roughster said:


> Solid work! Any idea of how the water drain from the inner cut of that turn?


7 months later and the berm is still in great shape. The photos show a bad angle. Run off flows down the trail and drains off the edge. We were trying to improve the corner. I must admit, the photos don't really show how the drainage works.

After a rainy season in Indonesia it's tried and true!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Awesome! I am watching the trail closely during the next rainy season for drainage.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Am I the only currently stuck in weed whacking hell? I’ve been pulling two a days and still probably have 5-6 sessions left, ughh!


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Awesome! What a lot of work doing all that video, thanks for that.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

roughster said:


> Am I the only currently stuck in weed whacking hell? I've been pulling two a days and still probably have 5-6 sessions left, ughh!


Could be worse. We had a storm here and I lost 5 good size trees at my house. I've been running a chain saw a lot.


----------



## drag_slick (Sep 24, 2004)

First pass with a Sweco


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

The trail never sleeps ... why should I?


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

My last two sessions have been on little stretch that the cows have really messed up...


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

And this is what it looks like with a rider on it:


----------



## ladeekus (Dec 30, 2013)

Rehabilitating a trail that has been lost to time. It was on an old topo map and Bear Valley Trail Stewardship has found it, flagged it and plans to give it new life in a couple weeks. Check out http://www.bearvalleytrails.org/
For more info on the woodchuck basin trail rehabilitation.









Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

ladeekus said:


> Rehabilitating a trail that has been lost to time. It was on an old topo map and Bear Valley Trail Stewardship has found it, flagged it and plans to give it new life in a couple weeks. Check out BearValleyTrails


That looks like some sweet potential!


----------



## ladeekus (Dec 30, 2013)

Last weekend there were about 30 volunteers including 12 from Sierra Nevada brewing company who participated in a half day effort to reclaim the previously mentioned lost trail to Woodchuck Basin. We were able to clear about a mile of the 1.5 mile trail and enjoy lunch and bottomless Sierra Nevada brews after the work was done. This weekend, we should finish clearing and start finishing. It's going to be an awesome trail when completed. If you're in the area, come on up and enjoy the day with us.
Bear Valley Trail Stewardship is breathing new life to BV trails!

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

ladeekus said:


> Last weekend there were about 30 volunteers including 12 from Sierra Nevada brewing company who participated in a half day effort to reclaim the previously mentioned lost trail to Woodchuck Basin...


That's fantastic! I haven't been up to Bear Valley yet, but need to!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Give me Parkway Drive on headphones and a pickaxe and i can get rid of cow prints pretty fast!


----------



## ladeekus (Dec 30, 2013)

Nice!

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Pictures will never do the project I've been working on justice. Now, to be fair, I got set out to build the climbing lines and transition lines (which you see some of in this video) for this project, but I also built some of the stuff on the bottom half of the trail once I'd finished all the climbing stuff. Since I haven't taken my own camera down, you get to ride with someone who has.


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

Y'all's stuff is looking good!

I'm working on my sidewoods pumptrack/trail.


----------



## ladeekus (Dec 30, 2013)

A few pics from the trail work day today in Bear Valley. It was g good day! Trail is rideable from top to bottom but still needs some finish work. Today, we had an all volunteer crew of about 20 and got some great work done.









Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Great video *Cotharyus*! What a blast it would be to actually build a purpose built trail, with equipment and people and know-how. You are an inspiration my friend!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

ki5ka said:


> Great video *Cotharyus*! What a blast it would be to actually build a purpose built trail, with equipment and people and know-how. You are an inspiration my friend!


Thanks! Honestly, most of the time we just hope people will be inspired to actually come out and maintain a trail like this once it's open. Fortunately it seems like we have a very inspired group of people about this trail.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

That looked awesome Cotharyus, nice work! 

On a ride the other day, one of my buddy stopped and said, "Wouldn't it be cool of instead of this steep little ramp, we curved the trail up to the side and created two banked turns to better use the elevation drop?" I thought about and said, "Yeah, that would be sweet!" I think its going to be pretty bad ass! From the exit you hit a rock jib then straight into a jump line. Going to add a few smiles to this section for sure!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

It is HOT like 103* F hot out there right now. Hopefully it doesn't catch anyone off guard until I get a chance to really dig it in deep.

Definitely not done, but it will work for a few days!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

It's rideable, based upon the fact I lived hitting it at routine trail speed this morning, but it is not pleasant. Basically a 3 foot drop to a sharp right-hander. I need to bring the entry on the inside down 2-3 feet on a slope to make it rail-able. Grrr... the work never ends


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Further progress made today. I will ride it later to see how it feels, but it looks much better. Gettin' good!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

With a rider:


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Cotharyus said:


> Pictures will never do the project I've been working on justice. Now, to be fair, I got set out to build the climbing lines and transition lines (which you see some of in this video) for this project, but I also built some of the stuff on the bottom half of the trail once I'd finished all the climbing stuff. Since I haven't taken my own camera down, you get to ride with someone who has.


Beautiful work!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Got to follow my buddy down a newly cleaned section, was pretty awesome!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

I should've known better. 6' gap so went with 10' beams ...









Not enough. I knew I should've went 12' or 14' and now will need to replace it. This one will fit another crossing well so not a waste.

So I guess double the gap + a few more is a good guideline!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Am I the only one actively digging? Doing mostly spot fixes and repairs, but have my eye set on a new mini-loop addition starting next week.

Trail is starting to land on the local radar and riders are stoked. It's weird watching my baby all growed up!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

roughster said:


> Am I the only one actively digging? Doing mostly spot fixes and repairs, but have my eye set on a new mini-loop addition starting next week.
> 
> Trail is starting to land on the local radar and riders are stoked. It's weird watching my baby all growed up!


Nope. I'm definitely still digging. Just in a different place. And there's really not much to see here.....


__
http://instagr.am/p/B1gp6BXnNi6/


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Cotharyus said:


> Nope. I'm definitely still digging. Just in a different place. And there's really not much to see here.....
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/B1gp6BXnNi6/


I see nothing but opportunity and excitement! Go get it!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

roughster said:


> I see nothing but opportunity and excitement! Go get it!


Haha, oh I got my head down brother. Hiding in all that Chinese honeysuckle one of the longest sustained downhills in the area, and one with some actual tech on it too. So we'll have some natural feeling areas where there's some rock shelves and such, and then some flowy sections with maybe even a couple small tables. But for anyone who has never encounter this particular form of hell that is Chinese honeysuckle - you can't see through it, you can't escape the dust that shakes off of/out of the bark when you mess with them, it's itchy, and when it's hot outside (like now) even being on the highest hill for several miles, no air moves in this stuff no matter how hard the wind blows. It's suffocating, stifling work. Fortunately, they pull up easily with a mini-ex. Pretty stoked for this job because it's less than an hour from my house, so I get to spend some time at home too.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Last Tuesday my child decided to bite back. Was showing a new group of locals the trail. On a new bike going too fast. I've made several comments about the surprising steepness. Well, I found out just how bad a fall there could be.

Came in going way too fast, knew it, decide to just lean in through it. Not exactly sure but think I momentarily lost traction then my front wheel spiked leading to OTB. It was a good 8 feet in the air straight to my shoulder. The result:



















Broke my collarbone in three places. I go into surgery tomorrow and have a long recovery ahead.

But that's not the point of this post. Spending the last almost week on the couch made me realize it's not just the riding I miss. I miss waking up early and hitting hill while the rest of the world sleeps:










Feel free to cheer me up with pictures or progress on your new dig!


----------



## ladeekus (Dec 30, 2013)

Damn! That sucks man! I hope you heal well and are able to get back at it soon.
Yesterday, I took a bunch of NICA NorCal League coaches out on a couple of reclaimed trails here in Bear Valley and the stoke from them was awesome! It makes all the hard work digging totally worth it!









Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

roughster said:


> Last Tuesday my child decided to bite back. Was showing a new group of locals the trail. On a new bike going too fast. I've made several comments about the surprising steepness of the entrance to the half pipe. Well, I found out just how bad a fall there could be.
> 
> Came in going way too fast, knew it, decide to just lean in through it. Not exactly sure but think I momentarily lost traction then my front wheel spiked leading to OTB. It was a good 8 feet in the air straight to my shoulder. The result:
> 
> ...


This is the thing that scares me most, to be honest - as someone who digs for a living, getting it right while I'm out riding is very, very important, because I want to have fun riding, but if I can't dig, I'm not getting paid. I've got some pictures of fresh dirt running around somewhere, I'll try to post some up for this week. We're just praying for rain here. All the dirt we're stacking for features is like talcum powder right now. We can't even properly speed check the trail we're building until it gets wet and we can compact it some.


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

roughster said:


> Last Tuesday my child decided to bite back. Was showing a new group of locals the trail. On a new bike going too fast. I've made several comments about the surprising steepness of the entrance to the half pipe. Well, I found out just how bad a fall there could be.
> 
> Came in going way too fast, knew it, decide to just lean in through it. Not exactly sure but think I momentarily lost traction then my front wheel spiked leading to OTB. It was a good 8 feet in the air straight to my shoulder. The result:
> 
> ...


Hope the recovery goes fast. I'll try to take some pictures but I usually forget or look at em later and decide they're not worth posting. I'm going to miss your trail pictures!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Thanks guys! Light trailwork is my planned rehab program!


----------



## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Cotharyus said:


> We're just praying for rain here. All the dirt we're stacking for features is like talcum powder right now. We can't even properly speed check the trail we're building until it gets wet and we can compact it some.


Same boat here in MD. We've got machine built and hand built happening simultaneously and both are too dry to do much... But the machine stuff is literally blowing away in the wind when we try to work it. C'mon rain!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Here's a little set we were working on yesterday..


__
http://instagr.am/p/B2177ukH7uk/


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Cotharyus said:


> Here's a little set we were working on yesterday..
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/B2177ukH7uk/


That looks like it's going to be awesome!


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

I wetted down an area enough to be usable. It took alot of water and then alot time for it to soak in deep enough. Really looking forward to some rain around these parts!

When conditions are right works its awesome, when it doesn't it's a huge pita.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Bummer about your injury, Roughster.

Not much time for building trail this season. The Master Plan for our park is getting a complete redo, and most of my spring was taken up with trail layout and planning for our proposal in June. We've had crazy amounts of rain, and most of July and early August was devoted to weed cutting.

I finally got to start in on a downhill I've been itching to improve. Adding grade reversals for water control and trail insloping to allow riders to take it faster. I finished this area, and polished up a traverse over to the second, much longer downhill. This latest area hasn't seen much improvement in the previous 15 years or so, and there's a lot to do.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Thanks Walt! That trail looks great! Love the few shady sections of my local trail!


----------



## firemb (Nov 4, 2014)

karthur said:


> I wetted down an area enough to be usable. It took alot of water and then alot time for it to soak in deep enough. Really looking forward to some rain around these parts!
> 
> When conditions are right works its awesome, when it doesn't it's a huge pita.


Wish you could get some of the rain we've had here. Around 7" for the month, one of the wettest on record.


----------



## drag_slick (Sep 24, 2004)

firemb said:


> Wish you could get some of the rain we've had here. Around 7" for the month, one of the wettest on record.


Same boat here, I'm in the middle of a 6.25 expansion, started in June, should be done by now. The only bonus is I know which spots need to be armored on a wet year.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

__
http://instagr.am/p/B3HPgy9HHgK/


----------



## dragonslayer (May 5, 2006)

*Recent Bridge Project*

Here's a few pictures from a recent bridge project using 32' bar joists. The bridge is 47" wide between the rail posts.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Couple of pictures in this set. Hand finished over 1000' of trail yesterday.


__
http://instagr.am/p/B3NzhV2nEM0/


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

I'm going to have some fun with this thing after work today. Using it to brush hog the edges of my logging paths then pivot to the 90 deg position and trim the side overhangs. 

It's a cool piece of equipment, I'm going to have it for the weekend and have a to shoot some videos of it operating and how to switch positions as payment for the use. 

I'll be sure to put some before and after photos up.


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

Looks like fun! Great way to pay for it, that's brilliant.


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

Side cutter mode, about to get to work.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Nice!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Now that's cool. I've been looking for something that will do that on a smaller tractor.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

A switchback on my downhill rebuild project. Nice yellow-brown clay with few rocks in this spot.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Doctor gave green light to hiking and light lifting. Grabbed a hoe and just moved a little dirt around an existing project spot. Packed it with my feet walking back and forth. It’s off the main loop and not connected so not worried about someone trying to ride it.

I will say, I found it tremendously therapeutic and satisfying after almost a month on the couch.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

roughster said:


> Doctor gave green light to hiking and light lifting. Grabbed a hoe and just moved a little dirt around an existing project spot. Packed it with my feet walking back and forth. It's off the main loop and not connected so not worried about someone trying to ride it.
> 
> I will say, I found it tremendously therapeutic and satisfying after almost a month on the couch. Just need a little rain, an all healed up me, and my good friend Mr. Tamper


Pretty


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 3, 2009)

I've been working on the Heart trail Realignment project on and off since mid June as a crew leader for American Conservation Experience. Our advocacy group has been actively working on this and the Little Elden trail realignments since August of 2016.

Go to my Instagram to check it out.

https://www.instagram.com/raisingarizona13/

thanks!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

raisingarizona said:


> I've been working on the Heart trail Realignment project on and off since mid June as a crew leader for American Conservation Experience. Our advocacy group has been actively working on this and the Little Elden trail realignments since August of 2016.
> 
> Go to my Instagram to check it out.
> 
> ...


Awesome! Can't wait to get out to Flag! Ride one day, climb, ride, climb, sounds awesome!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Double gully crossing, each side about 4 feet deep, linked by a 90 degree turn across this spine. For a little perspective, elevation difference from the bottom of the tree to the top of the spine is about 5.5 feet. Should be a good time.


__
http://instagr.am/p/B3-uU-7HRkV/


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Cotharyus said:


> Double gully crossing, each side about 4 feet deep, linked by a 90 degree turn across this spine. For a little perspective, elevation difference from the bottom of the tree to the top of the spine is about 5.5 feet. Should be a good time.
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/B3-uU-7HRkV/


Damn that looks great! I see that drain pipe / culvert underneath as well, nicely done! Did you do any rock work around the drain to keep it integral or is mostly for seepage not necessarily an actual flow?


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Very nice. Wider berms like that just aren't feasible (usually) to build by hand. And they ride so nicely.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

roughster said:


> Damn that looks great! I see that drain pipe / culvert underneath as well, nicely done! Did you do any rock work around the drain to keep it integral or is mostly for seepage not necessarily an actual flow?


Thanks!

That pipe has a little rock around the inlet, I anticipate a limited amount of flow during heavy rain events, but not anything dramatic. I tend to pipe anything in these run-ins that I can't make flat bottomed - in other words, if I have to build the bottom up, I don't want to create a pond. We built through an even larger run-in yesterday but kept the bottom flat, and even if a significant amount of water runs through it, it won't do so fast enough to wash anything out.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Walt Dizzy said:


> Very nice. Wider berms like that just aren't feasible (usually) to build by hand. And they ride so nicely.


Thanks Walt! I'm the guy that can take or leave a berm, as far as whether or not a trail needs them, but yeah, if I'm running two excavators on a job, and I get to a place where I can put a big fin in like that, it's for sure a feature people will talk about and take pictures of to post. Last trail I was working on we had some masonry available and built some box drops - I think every post I see from someone riding that trail they have a picture of those box drops with someone coming off them. I suspect this and one particular table top on this trail will be about the same.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

Cotharyus said:


> Thanks!
> 
> That pipe has a little rock around the inlet, I anticipate a limited amount of flow during heavy rain events, but not anything dramatic. I tend to pipe anything in these run-ins that I can't make flat bottomed - in other words, if I have to build the bottom up, I don't want to create a pond. We built through an even larger run-in yesterday but kept the bottom flat, and even if a significant amount of water runs through it, it won't do so fast enough to wash anything out.


This is similar to my design philosophy for streambed crossings. The manager for the land I work on is opposed to bridges. We learned from observing what worked on our own trail or at other trails that rock armor needs to be close to flush with the bottom of the stream bed, or bad things will happen.

We have had 400lb rocks wash out of crossings. More often, the trail approaching or leaving the crossings either washes out or becomes saturated and churned up by the riders using it.

The last 2 years in a row have seen rainfall totals set new records in Wisconsin. The problem isn't getting better, so we need to improve the quality of our trail work.

Thanks for showing how a quality build is done!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Agreed, thanks for the follow-up Cotharyus! My buddy and I were walking the trail this morning talking about lessons learned from last season and we have one creek crossing and another where there is no other choice but to cross a flood plain (no running water just a seepy mass of mudiness). The creek crossing is at the bottom of a ravine and g-out, so we are thinking culvert pretty much exactly how you have this one built.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Walt Dizzy said:


> This is similar to my design philosophy for streambed crossings. The manager for the land I work on is opposed to bridges. We learned from observing what worked on our own trail or at other trails that rock armor needs to be close to flush with the bottom of the stream bed, or bad things will happen.
> 
> We have had 400lb rocks wash out of crossings. More often, the trail approaching or leaving the crossings either washes out or becomes saturated and churned up by the riders using it.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I don't care for bridges either. There have been situations where they've been necessary (regulations on running streams, etc) but if I can get away with not building one, I'll build a natural line EVERY time. Running water has some serious power. I've seen what I thought were some very well built rock crossings wash out in recent years. I try to pay a lot of attention to places that water can "get hold of" and usually try to slow water down before it gets to my crossings by building up the bottom of the channel some to flatten things out a little, or making things a little wider. Lots of little tricks you can use, it's just knowing what to do where.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

roughster said:


> Agreed, thanks for the follow-up Cotharyus! My buddy and I were walking the trail this morning talking about lessons learned from last season and we have one creek crossing and another where there is no other choice but to cross a flood plain (no running water just a seepy mass of mudiness). The creek crossing is at the bottom of a ravine and g-out, so we are thinking culvert pretty much exactly how you have this one built.
> 
> The flood plain we are thinking about starting with a 12" wide elevated plankway in 8' sections on top of local oak hardwood sections raised about 8-10" above the ground for 40'. Not ideal and wish there was a better solution, but the flood plain basically isolates one of the better DH trails, so we have to find a way across.
> 
> If the the 12" planks don't work, I've already sketched out the plans for a 3' x 40' elevated wood bridge sitting on cement pylons, but that is going to take a lot more $$ and humping the materials in about 4 miles from the nearest trailhead in a direct shot, ughh.


Does water flow across this wet section at all, or is it just soft and wet? We had a section like this on a local trail and we just turnpiked it, although it was subject to some runoff heading towards a nearby creek. I started by putting down some landscape cloth so that everything else we did could be easily reversed if this didn't work or it needed to be taken out for some reason. Lined out 8 foot sections with some cedar logs harvested from deadfall in the woods around the trail. To accommodate the runoff we put 4" pipe between the 8 foot sections of cedar. Borrowed some creek gravel and sand from the nearby creek and put down a layer over everything, then topped it (crowned in the center, sides above the logs) with dirt. It's been at least 8 years, and that section of trail has never been a problem again. After a couple of years, lots of people stopped even noticing that anything had been "built" there to support the trail.


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

Time to bring out the lights. If I'm not at work it's dark outside.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Cotharyus said:


> Does water flow across this wet section at all, or is it just soft and wet? We had a section like this on a local trail and we just turnpiked it, although it was subject to some runoff heading towards a nearby creek. I started by putting down some landscape cloth so that everything else we did could be easily reversed if this didn't work or it needed to be taken out for some reason. Lined out 8 foot sections with some cedar logs harvested from deadfall in the woods around the trail. To accommodate the runoff we put 4" pipe between the 8 foot sections of cedar. Borrowed some creek gravel and sand from the nearby creek and put down a layer over everything, then topped it (crowned in the center, sides above the logs) with dirt. It's been at least 8 years, and that section of trail has never been a problem again. After a couple of years, lots of people stopped even noticing that anything had been "built" there to support the trail.


Hmm I hadn't really thought about using a raised trail. How deep was the sand / gravel? This might work as there isn't any actually running water that I've seen. There's lots of oak to line the edges with, but might be hard to scrape up depth of sand / gravel x 3' x 40' of sand / gravel.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

roughster said:


> Hmm I hadn't really thought about using a raised trail. How deep was the sand / gravel? This might work as there isn't any actually running water that I've seen. There's lots of oak to line the edges with, but might be hard to scrape up depth of sand / gravel x 3' x 40' of sand / gravel.


We used about 3-3.5" of sand/gravel and topped it with about that much dirt. It's really just to ensure the trail surface can drain down.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Nice, ok I can probably use a mix of smaller rocks and gravel to get that. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

roughster said:


> Nice, ok I can probably use a mix of smaller rocks and gravel to get that. Thanks for the tip!


No problem. There are so many little tricks and different ways to do things, sometimes the right solution is out there and we just don't think about it. I'm happy to be able to provide an option for something like this that doesn't involve decking that can break or stay super slick or screws can back out of or whatever. It just seems much easier to use more permanent materials. After all, I might get to ride your trail one day, and I'd want it to be as awesome as possible.  Thanks for building trails!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

The start of a big steep turn. About a 20’ turning radius on a steep hill. Using a small natural ridge as the top of the berm. This thing is going to be killer!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Follow-up on the turn above.It's like this wall pushing you right and stopping you from leaning. Not a good feeling as this corner is steep.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

The turn rides fine the way it is now in the improved state.


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

Your back slope is too steep. That a lot of vert for a turn of that radius, it looks like the berm ends too soon. That's a really steep place for a through-the-fall-line turn. 
Maybe a lay out issue. You have to know, if hand building, that turning through the fall line on a slope like that means a lot of digging. Also, eye-balling how much material will need to be moved for any turn like that is hard, and the tendency is to grossly underestimate how much digging you will need to do. Volume is very difficult to visualize, and big berms through steep slopes like that will require a LOT of material. Very common mistake. Use the material you generate by cutting a proper back slope to continue the berm. Also, tread shape is important, and almost no one does this, but a bermed turn is not a banked turn. The bottom of a berm is flat, the top of a berm is over steep. The tread should be heavily cupped so if a rider enters too low, they slip up to the pocket, and if they enter too high, they slip down into the pocket. This creates the feeling of being pressed into the berm. Banked turn very often are not steep enough and the feel of it is that you are still slipping up towards the top edge of the tread. If an in sloped turn shows wear and use within a few inches of the top edge of the tread, it is not steep enough, and the tread should be cupped to create a pocket and keep people in the groove, not out on the edge. If you shape it correctly, use actually help keep a good pocket and the berms take on an awesome, almost overhung shape that gives a feeling of positive traction and increased acceleration. $.02


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

It would be nice to have a picture of a rider on it so you can see the scale. 

As for lay out, this part of the trail basically is on a "mound" aka it has a steep slope off all sides so going up and down it with turns are the only real options other than to avoid the entire hillside, which isn't happening!


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

I think 30 degrees is the max angle of inclination generally accepted for sustainable back slopes. Even a 45 would be a good goal.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

DaveVt said:


> I think 30 degrees is the max angle of inclination generally accepted for sustainable back slopes. Even a 45 would be a good goal.


Awesome! Thank you


----------



## DaveVt (Jun 13, 2005)

A fun project I've been pecking away at for a few years, trying to etch in a descent from the ridge to the East of town. 1300 vert, 3.5 miles of primitive, under built trail. No benching. No berms other than utilizing natural undulations to maintain natural force during cornering where I could. Got a quick ride just before rifle season starts. Chunky, hand built, challenging trail. Sea of leaves out there makes it real interesting.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Nice Dave! Where I can keep it rocky, primitive and fun I am as well, but I am working with a ton of steep bovine terraced hillsides. Need to put in features or it would be exactly like every other trail around these parts, lol!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Good feedback from a local rider today on the corners, lol!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Yep. Newsflash: Cool new trail is cool. Way to go man!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Rain finally comes to NorCal.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Weather was nice this week, but typically the middle of December is when weather in Middle Tennessee goes down the crapper. That said, I ran a KX-71 into the woods this week to sling dirt with, and danged if we didn't get some features put together on this new trail.


__
http://instagr.am/p/B5v8Gr6HlFC/

It's important to note - we're still finishing with a u-17. I'm just using the bigger machine to drop dirt in front if it in something close to real time to put features together.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Cotharyus said:


> Weather was nice this week, but typically the middle of December is when weather in Middle Tennessee goes down the crapper. That said, I ran a KX-71 into the woods this week to sling dirt with, and danged if we didn't get some features put together on this new trail.
> 
> 
> __
> ...


Man, I wish I could use machines, lol! Those look so awesome!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

roughster said:


> Man, I wish I could use machines, lol! Those look so awesome!


Is the inability to use machines due to where you're building? I've built in a couple of places the land manager didn't want machines there, but we weren't building this kind of trail either. Otherwise, I'd say get everything how you want it (ready for a machine) then go rent one from somewhere - they aren't super expensive for a couple days - do what you need and take it back. Going from hand building to a small machine like a u17 is a game changer for almost any kind of trail, for large features, having a u17 to finish and fine tune things and something larger to sling dirt is just as big a game changer.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Yeah the hill is leased for grazing annually so the city plan only allows for "primitive" trails. Something cool happened today as I was hiking. Going through a soft spot and noticed this:


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

roughster said:


> Yeah the hill is leased for grazing annually so the city plan only allows for "primitive" trails. Something cool happened today as I was hiking. Going through a soft spot and noticed this:
> 
> View attachment 1297793


Are bear common in that area? We don't see a lot of them around here traditionally, but in the past couple of years we've had several sightings within 40 miles or so of where I'm working now. I've been keeping my eyes open, but haven't seen any bear tracks. Lots of coyte though.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Bear are not common but they show up on Ring Doorbells in the suburb bordering the hills every once in awhile. I was so stoked and kept following the prints admiring them when I realized I should probably be looking up and scanning a bit more. It was clear they were fairly fresh. 

That is one cool thing about the trails, invariably, I fix a stretch and by the next day it is covered in deer, coyote, raccoon and turkey tracks. The is the first time I have seen bear tracks though.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Daughter followed me up to look for bugs and what not (she's studying to be an entomologist). Super foggy!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Nice. I should have had someone taking pictures the other day when we were working in the snow.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

New technical features on For Those About To Rock with a gap between the split boulder. Have to thread the needle a little and make sure you don’t rip off your derailer! Good times!


----------



## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

The rider’s right hand side wants to be a takeoff. Make it happen!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

We've looked at it, due to the slope (its not very steep there), we would have to do something about the transition.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Over half of the trail currently looks like this:









Proof that cows like banked turns too*&^#@!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

At least that's just cattle that don't actually know any better. I've seen trails look similar after being ridden on by horses, piloted by supposedly sentient and intelligent beings.


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

Well that sucks, are all your trails in cow territory or is just a section you have to go through?


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

karthur said:


> Well that sucks, are all your trails in cow territory or is just a section you have to go through?


All but about 0.5 miles. It is actually surprising how fast we can clean them back up, but the timing of the clean up is the tricky part. If we clean to early then we get a rain while the cows are still in, it literally takes them one day to make miles of this ... again.

Oh well it comes with the territory and the privilege of riding / digging here!


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

So there are over 100 head of cattle in about 400 acres^2 not a good recipe for trail longevity. Found a nice little steep section that cows walk down (steepest part is -34.1%). Surface made it a more loamy / skiddy feel to it.


----------



## roughster (Dec 18, 2017)

Everyone is liking the new steep slide. Fun stuff!


----------

