# eMTB FUD from Moab



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

No surprise here. As I have mentioned before, there is a core group of ebike haters in Moab who think you should "earn" your ride. The handkerchief waving about trail impacts are straight up bullshit. *ALL* of the singletrack in Moab is already blown out by the massive number of riders. There would be *zero* further negative impact from ebikes. Again, if a 150lb rider on a 50lb ebike is a problem, why is a 180lb rider on a 35 pound bike just fine?

E-bikes: human-powered or motorized? | News | moabsunnews.com


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## ruthabagah (Jun 4, 2018)

Yeah, this is BS.... And there is another article today commenting on the reversal of OHV ROAD access in NPS land... Same type of fear mongering liberal **** brewing there.... But I know many locals who are NOT happy with how the town is managed as well as how the "progressive" city council is changing Moab to become an exclusive, high priced, resort.

NPS Reverses Policy Allowing OHVs in Parks | News | moabsunnews.com


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Lol. 


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Who cares what others think, just ride and ignore them. Its until they impede on our ebiking fun that we have to mobilize and get our ebiking strategies pushed through the government.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

matt4x4 said:


> Who cares what others think, just ride and ignore them. Its until they impede on our ebiking fun that we have to mobilize and get our ebiking strategies pushed through the government.


You obviously didn't read the article. It is about the town, county and trails group in Moab petitioning BLM to prevent ebikes from being allowed on the local trails. The BLM trails in Moab are *not*, I repeat *not* legal at this time, even with the recent national order. The local BLM district must decide they are legal.

The trail areas off limits to ebikes include Mag 7, LPS/NPS, Navajo Rocks, Ahab, Pipe Dream, Bar-M, Klonzo, the Far North trails, and the trails around Klondike Bluffs. About 50 trails in all. The locals are putting on a full court press to try to get the local BLM manager to keep them off limits, even though the national order clearly states that ebikes should be treated like bicycles.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

> The letter argues that e-bikes could belong on trails already open to motorized use, but that allowing them on non-motorized trails will negatively affect the experience of hikers, backpackers, hunters, horse packers, climbers, and mountain bikers. The groups fear that an exception for one form of motorized use will begin a "slippery slope" of deteriorating regulations against other motorized vehicles.
> 
> The groups assert that differentiating the classes of e-bikes identified in the DOI memo is confusing and poses unnecessary enforcement challenges for land managers, and that opening non-motorized trails to e-bikes is contrary to decades of existing regulations and management planning.


Seems totally reasonable. I'd sign onto that letter. :thumbsup:

I also have no issue with e-bikers organizing and advocating for more access with specific plans on how to address the concerns brought up in the letter. Perhaps selecting specific trails to open up as demonstrations of how things would work and having the demo trails reviewed on an annual basis with the potential for further changes either way.


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## TheBikeStore (Aug 27, 2017)

honkinunit said:


> You obviously didn't read the article. It is about the town, county and trails group in Moab petitioning BLM to prevent ebikes from being allowed on the local trails. The BLM trails in Moab are *not*, I repeat *not* legal at this time, even with the recent national order. The local BLM district must decide they are legal.
> 
> The trail areas off limits to ebikes include Mag 7, LPS/NPS, Navajo Rocks, Ahab, Pipe Dream, Bar-M, Klonzo, the Far North trails, and the trails around Klondike Bluffs. About 50 trails in all. The locals are putting on a full court press to try to get the local BLM manager to keep them off limits, even though the national order clearly states that ebikes should be treated like bicycles.


INFORMATION ON SECRETARY'S ORDER 3376 INCREASING RECREATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES THROUGH THE USE OF ELECTRIC BIKES (SO 3376)

"As the BLM works to implement fully SO 3376, District or Field Managers should, as appropriate to address local situations, use the exclusion to the definition of off-road vehicle at 43 CFR 8340.0-5(a)(3) to authorize the use of Class I, II, and III e-bikes, as those terms are defined in section 4 of SO 3376, where other types of bicycles are allowed. In considering when and where to authorize the use of e-bikes, District or Field Managers should take into account the policy set forth in SO 3376 that the use of e-bikes in the pedal assist mode and traditional bicycles without an electric pedal assist should be treated generally in the same manner.

In the event that a District or Field Manager is considering denying the use of low-speed electric bicycles in a specific location, a written explanation must be submitted to and approved by the State Director."

Full Policy Page here: https://www.blm.gov/policy/ib-2020-003


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Of course you gotta be legal, so if they are not legal now, u guys gotta organize to make it legal so they dont impede your ebiking pleasure.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

honkinunit said:


> The trail areas off limits to ebikes include Mag 7, LPS/NPS, Navajo Rocks, Ahab, Pipe Dream, Bar-M, Klonzo, the Far North trails, and the trails around Klondike Bluffs.


I'd argue that the last thing any of the listed trails need is more traffic, E or not.

I'd happily support a pay-to-ride permit system in that zone, especially if the bulk of the funds generated went to mitigating impacts from the ****-tons of people riding out there. If it cut down on traffic, even better.

In reality that's not going to happen. So I'll continue avoiding those trails and riding the moto-legal stuff, because as difficult as it is to believe, the moto legal stuff is less busy and less shredded.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Tricky topic. I'm not a huge fan or hater of ebikes, but it sure sounds like the Sierra Club is up to its normal MO of setting up a variety of straw men, in hopes of keeping things open only to hikers, and preferably those who are up to date, dues paying members.

I did come upon a funny incident on the Slickrock Trail a few weeks ago. At the top of one of the longer climbs, one rider was (very politely) informing a couple of ebikers that they were not allowed.

I slowed down and mentioned that DIRT BIKES were allowed on this trail......


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

That is the exact type of interaction where you ignore them! Cant cure dumb.



kosmo said:


> Tricky topic. I'm not a huge fan or hater of ebikes, but it sure sounds like the Sierra Club is up to its normal MO of setting up a variety of straw men, in hopes of keeping things open only to hikers, and preferably those who are up to date, dues paying members.
> 
> I did come upon a funny incident on the Slickrock Trail a few weeks ago. At the top of one of the longer climbs, one rider was (very politely) informing a couple of ebikers that they were not allowed.
> 
> I slowed down and mentioned that DIRT BIKES were allowed on this trail......


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## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

matt4x4 said:


> That is the exact type of interaction where you ignore them! Cant cure dumb.


Not necessarily dumb, but like you, uninformed.

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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Those are the people you gotta ignore, its not what other users of the trail system think, or what they are waving, or what they want, or anything they say. It is whats in place by legislation to follow. That is what I am talking about. Don't get so wound up by their fray because its their "road rage" and its not right. Is it best to ignore them and avoid confrontation, is it best to confront them and educate them, thats personal.

In other places hikers/walkers are setting up booby traps on trail systems, setting up metal lines across the trail between tree's, laying down nails to puncture tires, felling or moving tree's in blind spots on the trails, digging holes and hiding it with a layer of leaves to cover the hole up.... some very serious and criminal actions. Theres a growing divide, seen area's completely close down because a group grew strong and got their way because the flip side group was not organized.



honkinunit said:


> No surprise here. As I have mentioned before, there is a core group of ebike haters in Moab who think you should "earn" your ride. The handkerchief waving about trail impacts are straight up bullshit. *ALL* of the singletrack in Moab is already blown out by the massive number of riders. There would be *zero* further negative impact from ebikes. Again, if a 150lb rider on a 50lb ebike is a problem, why is a 180lb rider on a 35 pound bike just fine?
> 
> E-bikes: human-powered or motorized? | News | moabsunnews.com


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1207/ebikepolicy.htm


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

I read a similar article the other day in Moab news. It said something like three or four people voted in the Grand County Council to exclude ebikes. The county officials are not the BLM. The BLM has been ordered to comply and they will need to file paper work to explain non-compliance. They are going to lose. Look how easily the NPS folded. The NPS is like a tiger compared to the little kitten of the BLM. 

I grow tired of the argument that ebikes increase use on a trail. Like I am going to ride my bike back and forth over the same area and do laps or something. My goal when I swing a leg over an ebike is maximum distance. Sometimes that involves huge loops with asphalt involved. If you are riding a loop then that is one way traffic. If you use the ebike in place of a shuttle-ling two cars than that is two cars that are not driving back and forth in a canyon. Take the Porc in Moab. It is a 30 mile loop from town. That is within the range of an ebike and one way. Amassa-Pot hole Arch-Captain Ahab is also fun from town. I could go on and on.


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## slimat99 (May 21, 2008)

honkinunit said:


> No surprise here. As I have mentioned before, there is a core group of ebike haters in Moab who think you should "earn" your ride. The handkerchief waving about trail impacts are straight up bullshit. *ALL* of the singletrack in Moab is already blown out by the massive number of riders. There would be *zero* further negative impact from ebikes. Again, if a 150lb rider on a 50lb ebike is a problem, why is a 180lb rider on a 35 pound bike just fine?
> 
> E-bikes: human-powered or motorized? | News | moabsunnews.com


So the trails are blown out so why not add to the problem? Regardless of the impact differences between mountain bikes and ebikes, more riders means more impact. Moab is a total **** show these days. I'm glad E-bikes are banned just because of traffic alone.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

slimat99 said:


> So the trails are blown out so why not add to the problem? Regardless of the impact differences between mountain bikes and ebikes, more riders means more impact. Moab is a total **** show these days. I'm glad E-bikes are banned just because of traffic alone.


So that n+1 rider of an MTB or hiker is less traffic than the n+1 eMTB rider?

Locals are happy to see posts like this. They'll use it to justify banning all MTB's. There are a lot of Moab locals who would love to "take back" Slickrock, Bar-M, Moab Rim, Dead Horse Point, and all trails in the mountains. In fact, they would like Arches, Canyonlands, and BLM to start requiring permits for any use, and they would like to eliminate all camping outside of developed campgrounds, which is almost the case already anyway. Basically a toll gate and limits on any use, period. But of course, hikers will get preference.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

honkinunit said:


> Locals are happy to see posts like this. They'll use it to justify banning all MTB's. There are a lot of Moab locals who would love to "take back" Slickrock, Bar-M, Moab Rim, Dead Horse Point, and all trails in the mountains. In fact, they would like Arches, Canyonlands, and BLM to start requiring permits for any use, and they would like to eliminate all camping outside of developed campgrounds, which is almost the case already anyway. Basically a toll gate and limits on any use, period. But of course, hikers will get preference.


As a lifelong rider and someone that has visited Moab 5 to 10x per year for the last 25 years, I see merit in all of the above approaches. Something has to change.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

mikesee said:


> As a lifelong rider and someone that has visited Moab 5 to 10x per year for the last 25 years, I see merit in all of the above approaches. Something has to change.


Be careful what you wish for. Getting a permit to camp on White Rim is like trying to get a concert ticket now. You have to login at midnight and click until you get what you want. Or don't get what you want and try again the next night. Then people don't even show up because it is tough to plan four months in advance, so campsites sit empty.

You want that to be able to ride TWE/Porcupine, Mag 7, Ahab, Klonzo, Far North?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

honkinunit said:


> Be careful what you wish for. Getting a permit to camp on White Rim is like trying to get a concert ticket now. You have to login at midnight and click until you get what you want. Or don't get what you want and try again the next night. Then people don't even show up because it is tough to plan four months in advance, so campsites sit empty.
> 
> You want that to be able to ride TWE/Porcupine, Mag 7, Ahab, Klonzo, Far North?


I don't ride any of those trails anymore anyway. Too much of a shitshow. They're great trails but there's nothing enjoyable about riding within a dust cloud, or with people smoking cigarettes at every other corner, or with a steady stream of personal speakers on every pack or bike. I ride to get away from all of the above.

We -- the riding community -- have made it into this shitshow. We don't seem capable of undoing this on our own -- especially not with the entitled-to-everything attitude that people like yourself espouse.

If pay to play is instituted I'll probably, eventually dip my toes and go back to Moab. But until something changes _dramatically_ I've removed myself from the equation. One less person is only *one* less, but every little bit makes a difference.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

I went to Moab for the first time last April. I've been riding for 30 years.

Rode as many trails as I could :Captain Ahab, Mag 7, Porcupine etc. etc.

It wasn't blown out, or a **** show. There weren't people every corner smoking cigarettes (I didn't' see one cigarette or smoker on the trails), don't recall any speakers blaring music.

People that we talked to here and there were pretty cool. It was genuinely a great experience.

Am i missing something? 

Seems like there are more cynical people these days (out in the world and on this forum)

Maybe you shouldn't leave your Wheaties unattended, I think somebody is pissing in them every morning.

:smallviolin:


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Mike is right on target, Moab is being loved to death, it's no longer a place where you go to "get away" from crowds.

So maybe you're standards are different, but Moab has certainly gotten too busy for some folks, and it's far busier than it was a decade or two ago.



mlx john said:


> I went to Moab for the first time last April. I've been riding for 30 years.
> 
> Rode as many trails as I could :Captain Ahab, Mag 7, Porcupine etc. etc.
> 
> ...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

It's an increase in users because people who can't ride on a non ebike will be able to ride on an ebike. This is especially problematic in a place like Moab that is getting built out for tourism, hotels on every corner.

Moab used to have shoulder seasons, but no longer.

Same issue as Tahoe,



Giant Warp said:


> I read a similar article the other day in Moab news. It said something like three or four people voted in the Grand County Council to exclude ebikes. The county officials are not the BLM. The BLM has been ordered to comply and they will need to file paper work to explain non-compliance. They are going to lose. Look how easily the NPS folded. The NPS is like a tiger compared to the little kitten of the BLM.
> 
> I grow tired of the argument that ebikes increase use on a trail. Like I am going to ride my bike back and forth over the same area and do laps or something. My goal when I swing a leg over an ebike is maximum distance. Sometimes that involves huge loops with asphalt involved. If you are riding a loop then that is one way traffic. If you use the ebike in place of a shuttle-ling two cars than that is two cars that are not driving back and forth in a canyon. Take the Porc in Moab. It is a 30 mile loop from town. That is within the range of an ebike and one way. Amassa-Pot hole Arch-Captain Ahab is also fun from town. I could go on and on.


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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Nurse Ben said:


> It's an increase in users because people who can't ride on a non ebike will be able to ride on an ebike. This is especially problematic in a place like Moab that is getting built out for tourism, hotels on every corner.
> 
> Moab used to have shoulder seasons, but no longer.
> 
> Same issue as Tahoe,


Maybe Moab would rather go back to their slow march towards becoming a ghost town.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

richde said:


> Maybe Moab would rather go back to their slow march towards becoming a ghost town.


The economy of Moab will be just fine without e-bikes on already overcrowded the trails.

Personally, I'll be giving Moab a hard pass if e-bikes are allowed on all the trails there. Like others, I started going there to get away from crowds. I only go there now when it's cold or hot enough to keep the trails relatively clear. There are other places I can go with similar weather, decent enough views and trails, and a lack of traffic.

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## richde (Jun 8, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> The economy of Moab will be just fine without e-bikes on already overcrowded the trails.
> 
> Personally, I'll be giving Moab a hard pass if e-bikes are allowed on all the trails there. Like others, I started going there to get away from crowds. I only go there now when it's cold or hot enough to keep the trails relatively clear. There are other places I can go with similar weather, decent enough views and trails, and a lack of traffic.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's obviously not the traffic that you're so offended by, so don't use that as an excuse. Your endless trolling of this subforum is proof of that.

Get over it, ride your ride, don't worry about other people.


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## rwdbkr (Jan 24, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> Mike is right on target, Moab is being loved to death, it's no longer a place where you go to "get away" from crowds.
> 
> So maybe you're standards are different, but Moab has certainly gotten too busy for some folks, and it's far busier than it was a decade or two ago.


Really?? Thanks for the revelation. In case you haven`t noticed, the sport has grown. That's categorically true of about every location worthy of riding, from mtn bike meccas to podunk local trails. There are just more riders on the trails, plain and simple. If it's that much of a problem for you, then don't ride there, as Mike suggests. 
I'll ride with mixjohn over Mike any day of the week and have a good time doing it ?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

mlx john said:


> I went to Moab for the first time last April.
> 
> It wasn't blown out, or a **** show.
> 
> Am i missing something?


If you'd never been there before, against what standard are you basing your conclusions?

Whatever standard that is, I won't argue with it -- it's your opinion based on your experience.

I've been going to Moab for 25 years. Several trips per year. To my eyes, based on my experience, it has almost nothing in common with the place I first visited in 1993. And it's not enjoyable to be there now, compared to what it used to be.

I don't expect you to share my opinion, but maybe the above helps you to understand it.


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## IPunchCholla (Dec 8, 2013)

I've only been to Moab twice. Once 4 years ago and again this year. Both times in the trail was about the same. I think we saw 4 or 5 other riders on Amassa/Captain Ahab and Navajo Rocks. On TWE we hung back for ten minutes and came across maybe 20 other riders the whole ride down. 

On Slickrock, we were probably were leapfrogging within the same 7 or 9 people. 

Nothing on the trails felt terribly crowded. Clearly a bit more crowded than my home trails, but I didn't feel held up by anyone. In fact it was fun being able to watch riders try sections I won't touch (yet). 

Now town was crazy busy. A non stop traffic jam and every restaurant crammed. 


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

mikesee said:


> If you'd never been there before, against what standard are you basing your conclusions?
> 
> Whatever standard that is, I won't argue with it -- it's your opinion based on your experience.
> 
> ...


Can you tell me what mountain bike location is still the same as it was in 1993? If there is one, it's probably because the trails suck. Growth in happening on the biking trails, climbing areas and backcountry ski locations. A natural evolution as gear gets better and media promotes activities to sell products. We can moan....

I only have about 15 days of riding time in Moab, but the only "crowded" trails I've encountered was to first couples miles of Slick Rock. Even then it didn't negatively impact my experience, but I can see how a local would be turned off.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

russinthecascades said:


> Can you tell me what mountain bike location is still the same as it was in 1993?


Yes, I can. But there's not a chance in hell that I will.

We are agreed that change is happening. Your solution seems to be to lay down and let it happen. Your prerogative, and you're not alone.

I'm being somewhat proactive about it, in hopes that I can still recognize the sport I love, and that has given me so much, 10 years from now.


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## russinthecascades (Jun 1, 2013)

mikesee said:


> We are agreed that change is happening. Your solution seems to be to lay down and let it happen. Your prerogative, and you're not alone.


Not really. I'm applying for a position on the board supporting and influencing the area closest to me (200 yards away). It's a multi-use area, so want to be involved so all user are heard.

Great that you have secluded ride area - hope it stays that way for a long time!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

russinthecascades said:


> Not really. I'm applying for a position on the board supporting and influencing the area closest to me (200 yards away). It's a multi-use area, so want to be involved so all user are heard.
> 
> Great that you have secluded ride area - hope it stays that way for a long time!


Good on ya for being proactive. We need more people doing exactly that.

Didn't mean to suggest that my backyard trails were secluded -- they are anything but. We do have a few regional ride stashes that have, thus far, eluded the MTB Project/Trailforks curse.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I'm pretty sure you'd find a lot of support for that comment.

I know insight is hard to come by, but an adage comes to mind:

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Look around the many places "we" live and love, do you notice any similarities?

Loving it to death comes to mind.



richde said:


> Maybe Moab would rather go back to their slow march towards becoming a ghost town.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Ban side by side's, get rid of all the rentals and shuttle companies in town. Permit system to enter Arches. Problem solved.


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