# eMTB survey



## D T W (Apr 27, 2021)

Francis, Would you show us an age graph of the eMTB survey responders. I'm guessing some of the nay sayers aren't yet collecting social security!


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Most that I see are quite a bit younger than I am. And riding off-limits trails.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

Funny about the age question. I turn 72 in a few weeks and have demoed a few eBikes but I can't get over the price and weight. They were better then I ever expected but I keep thinking, "do I need to make my bike even more complex then it already is?" My rational answer is "no." 

I'm not a nay sayer and have been collecting SSI for ten years. I've just learned that it is sometimes better to wait for a new trend to get the kinks out before I invest in it.

Right now, most (not all) eBike riders I see are both young and less experienced. It's too short a time to tell if it is a trend, but eBikes have basically disappeared from my local eastern trails the past few weeks.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Rev Bubba said:


> Funny about the age question. I turn 72 in a few weeks and have demoed a few eBikes but I can't get over the price and weight. They were better then I ever expected but I keep thinking, "do I need to make my bike even more complex then it already is?" My rational answer is "no."
> 
> I'm not a nay sayer and have been collecting SSI for ten years. I've just learned that it is sometimes better to wait for a new trend to get the kinks out before I invest in it.
> 
> Right now, most (not all) eBike riders I see are both young and less experienced. It's too short a time to tell if it is a trend, but eBikes have basically disappeared from my local eastern trails the past few weeks.


I'm seeing more of them on our local trails. Typically young and affluent riders. There's one guy at the local bike park with one where they're not allowed and he rides right through the central clearing that's full of small children and classes at a fast speed.

On the flip side, there is a trail network in our state where e-bikes are specifically permitted and I have no problem whatsoever with them there.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

I'm 58 and I'll never own one. Not for recreational use anyway. Maybe for cargo/commuting. Probably not though.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Ebikes are here to stay. Road, city, hybrids, fat, MTB each year they sell more so it is a personal decision.
I do not have a car so last july i got an EGiant Stance. I was 62. Sell your car you will save $.


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## Rock (Jan 13, 2004)

I see eMTB's the way I see Harley.....trikes. I guess I'm glad they are available, and are right for some people, but if I ever get to that point were I would have to ride one, I'll just buy a convertible.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

D T W said:


> Francis, Would you show us an age graph of the eMTB survey responders. I'm guessing some of the nay sayers aren't yet collecting social security!


Why don't you, the OP post a survey?


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Rock said:


> I see eMTB's the way I see Harley.....trikes. I guess I'm glad they are available, and are right for some people, but if I ever get to that point were I would have to ride one, I'll just buy a convertible.


Shop in Canada.
All our Ebikes are convertible.


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## ElTortoise (Jul 27, 2015)

I'll be 59 in a few months and as long as I'm still able to pedal a bike, I'm going to pedal a bike. However, I have been toying with the idea of buying an e-bike for commuting to work. It's a 24 mile ride one way to the office. Yes, I could ride a regular bike but getting to the office a little less sweaty and gross would be a good thing. The other possibility I'd consider would be an injury or health condition where an e-bike becomes the only way I can keep riding.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

E-bikes should be mandatory for any commute less than 10 miles. Employers should be given carbon credits for all e-bikes used for commuting to their workplace. If you hit an e-biker on the road, you get your car taken away for 5 years. Schools should ban kid drop-offs by car and give kids dropped off by e-bike free lunch. Health insurers should knock %50 off premiums for anyone that logs 1,000+ miles of yearly e-bike use. Post offices and supermarkets should only have e-bike parking. Cops should pull over any e-bikers they see them and give them a Civic Engagement Medal. Old guys who take e-bikes to Dunkin Donuts get a free Viagra pill with their donut. The local paper should publish a photo profile of any person who gets their first e-bike. And there should be yearly Mard E-Gras parades in every US community with a population over 10,000, with e-bike floats and naked people and booze and music and other stuff.

Just so long as they stay off the trails.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

I'm 58 and an eMTBis very likely my next bike, BUT in context I'm not one who changes bikes often and am still in love my 2017 ride. I figure by the time I'm ready to change that ebikes will have dropped some weight and moderated on price somewhat. Best guess is that I'm ~ 5 yrs away from bike shopping again though.


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

I'm all for e-bikes on our local trails, just like I am all for grooming every black and double black ski run, changing the reefs at all surfing spots so the breaks aren't so big and putting permanent anchors all over every climbing spot. We should also put an escalator up Everest.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

deuxdiesel said:


> I'm all for e-bikes on our local trails, just like I am all for grooming every black and double black ski run, changing the reefs at all surfing spots so the breaks aren't so big and putting permanent anchors all over every climbing spot. We should also put an escalator up Everest.


You are are real male.
You are an example when you pedal pulling your car to save all kinds of energy.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

^^^^ WTF?


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

I cannot think of an e-bike rider that *is* collecting Social Security though would say that many of them are 40+ and more able to afford dropping anywhere from (maybe) $5 - $12k or more on a single bicycle. There aren't too many off limits e-bike trails where I live though a number of hiker only trails that all sorts of MTB riders hit with regularity.

Doesn't really bother me if others ride e-bikes or not on the trails. At 55 years of age I have no interest in them myself for now and won't consider one until bike commute range, endurance, injury or health issues become limiting factors that would substantially benefit from power assist.


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## CrashCanipe (Jan 12, 2004)

Like many of you, I was in the "when I get older and "need" an ebike I'll consider it" crowd. My wife got a Trek Rail in October and I didn't ride it until just recently. I was on a solo trip to an area that I would normally shuttle with friends - several mile long climb on rough gravel road to an awesome rolling mostly downhill trail. I thought I would try the ebike and was blown away. First, despite the weight, it handled well and jumped really well. With it in Eco mode, my heart rate was indicating I was getting a good workout. It does require pedaling. In Eco mode, if I'm pedaling 200 watts, its delivering as if I'm pedaling 320 watts. Essentially, it was what biking is all about - Fun. Is it "cheating"? That's up for each to decide. For me, I could ride more of the fun stuff and still get a great workout. I've lived through the improvements to the fun quotient - full suspension, disc brakes, 29 inch wheels, tubeless tires and put an e-bike in the same category. I like it. For now, I still mainly ride my human only powered bike 95% of the time because that's what my friends are riding. But I suggest folks try them on a trail.


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## nine_0 (Nov 19, 2018)

I am so much faster on my emtb then my regular bike. I’m taking KOM’s left and right.


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## nine_0 (Nov 19, 2018)

Jokes aside...emtb has been great. I do miss the suffer fest from time to time. Although I find that I can tune the bike to keep my heart rate in the 150’s for most of the ride. I still can get my BPM up from that by lowering the assist. The cool thing is I don’t need to take breaks and can just keep riding. The other benefit is to access trails that I would have to do on separate occasions on a regular bike but now I can hit 3 of my favorite trails in the same ride. Workout wise it is a little different because you have to travel father to get the same workout but takes about the same amount of time. I also ride up tracks that would be impossible on a normal bike. Obviously I’m not riding up popular downhill sections but double wides that are easy for riders to pass on. Downhill...this is the best part. The Turbo Levo is a very nice downhill bike and being able to upgrade shocks and basically ride a downhill bike uphill makes for a fun ride. Pretty much everyone I ride with from age 30 to 50 have upgraded to an EMTB all Specialized Levo or Kenevo .


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

nine_0 said:


> Jokes aside.. I also ride up tracks that would be impossible on a normal bike.


You mean a normally unconditioned rider.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

I walk up hills I can't climb on my real bike. Most of the trails I like to ride classify e-peds correctly as motorized traffic anyway, and ban them, so even if I wanted one I would have to find someplace else to ride it.


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## nine_0 (Nov 19, 2018)

No I mean trails that most riders conditioned or unconditioned would have to walk up.


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## nine_0 (Nov 19, 2018)

Cleared2land said:


> You mean a normally unconditioned rider.


No I mean trails that most riders conditioned or unconditioned would have to walk up.


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## nine_0 (Nov 19, 2018)

SteveF said:


> I walk up hills I can't climb on my real bike. Most of the trails I like to ride classify e-peds correctly as motorized traffic anyway, and ban them, so even if I wanted one I would have to find someplace else to ride it.


It is easy to hate on emtb's. People typically resist change, which is understandable. They are still a workout and fun. Especially fun hitting your favorite downhills 3-4 times in a ride where you would only be able to go once in the same amount of time. Fortunately there are a lot of trails here that permit them.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

nine_0 said:


> I am so much faster on my emtb then my regular bike. I'm taking KOM's left and right.





nine_0 said:


> It is easy to hate on emtb's.


I wonder why?


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## nine_0 (Nov 19, 2018)

Cleared2land said:


> I wonder why?


That was intended as a joke. But there is a bit of snobbery in cycling which is unfortunate. So when you do pass someone on a analog bike it can lead to a bit of uncalled for resentment. When you pass someone on an emtb it seems to amplify the ego bruising. Haters will hate regardless.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

You have contributed to the 'hater' problem by your very statements, joking or not. Locally, your statement is a real thing and emtb's are not permitted on most, if not all trails in the region.


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## nine_0 (Nov 19, 2018)

Cleared2land said:


> You have contributed to the 'hater' problem by your very statements, joking or not. Locally, your statement is a real thing and emtb's are not permitted on most, if not all trails in the region.


All the trails I ride are open to emtb's. You are naive to think that there isn't a general hatred for emtb's regardless of how you interpret my statements or not.


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

nine_0 said:


> You are naive to think that there isn't a general hatred for emtb's regardless of how you interpret my statements or not.


I never said there wasn't a general hatred, in fact I acknowledge that. Where get you get that assumption?


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## nine_0 (Nov 19, 2018)

Cleared2land said:


> I never said there wasn't a general hatred, in fact I acknowledge that. Where get you get that assumption?


Excellent...well we both agree there is a general hatred for emtbs.


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## nine_0 (Nov 19, 2018)

Cleared2land said:


> Locally...emtb's are not permitted on most, if not all trails in the region.


How can EMTB's be permitted on some trail and not permitted on all trails at the same time?


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

nine_0 said:


> How can EMTB's be permitted on some trail and not permitted on all trails at the same time?


Decision of the individual landowner.


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

CrashCanipe said:


> Like many of you, I was in the "when I get older and "need" an ebike I'll consider it" crowd. My wife got a Trek Rail in October and I didn't ride it until just recently. I was on a solo trip to an area that I would normally shuttle with friends - several mile long climb on rough gravel road to an awesome rolling mostly downhill trail. I thought I would try the ebike and was blown away. First, despite the weight, it handled well and jumped really well. With it in Eco mode, my heart rate was indicating I was getting a good workout. It does require pedaling. In Eco mode, if I'm pedaling 200 watts, its delivering as if I'm pedaling 320 watts. Essentially, it was what biking is all about - Fun. Is it "cheating"? That's up for each to decide. For me, I could ride more of the fun stuff and still get a great workout. I've lived through the improvements to the fun quotient - full suspension, disc brakes, 29 inch wheels, tubeless tires and put an e-bike in the same category. I like it. For now, I still mainly ride my human only powered bike 95% of the time because that's what my friends are riding. But I suggest folks try them on a trail.


This. I ride my wife's Turbo Levo once for every 20 rides on my Knolly Fugitive. Different experience but really not that different than regular mountain biking except that you can go further, do more laps, climb steeper trails. It takes just as much energy and rewards better bike handling skills just like a regular bike. Many, if not all of the same skills sets are involved. Just like regular analog mountain bikes, they're fun. Just different.

I think it will be like any new innovation in bikes and mountain biking in general. Lycra to Baggy shorts; HT to FS; rim brakes to hydraulic disc brakes. 26er to 29er; etc etc. You'll see a lot of arguing and hating at first, but eventually almost everyone will accept it and move on. If it's not for you, fine. But like CrashCanipe said, I suggest folks try them on a real trail.


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## Dawgprimo (Mar 7, 2004)

I won't go over to the DARKside!


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

KRob said:


> This. I ride my wife's Turbo Levo once for every 20 rides on my Knolly Fugitive. Different experience but really not that different than regular mountain biking except that you can go further, do more laps, climb steeper trails. It takes just as much energy and rewards better bike handling skills just like a regular bike. Many, if not all of the same skills sets are involved. Just like regular analog mountain bikes, they're fun. Just different.
> 
> I think it will be like any new innovation in bikes and mountain biking in general. Lycra to Baggy shorts; HT to FS; rim brakes to hydraulic disc brakes. 26er to 29er; etc etc. You'll see a lot of arguing and hating at first, but eventually almost everyone will accept it and move on. If it's not for you, fine. But like CrashCanipe said, I suggest folks try them on a real trail.


It'll never happen. Because they are motorized and marketers and advocates keep trying to hawk them as an alternative to use on non-motorized trails. It's cynical and misleading and it'll never be accepted as just "another bike innovation."

Talk about cynical. Advocates will tout and shout about how the pedal assist motor is such a big effin' deal, then when advocating for trail access, talk out the other sides of their mouths and downplay that very defining characteristic! I am truly disgusted by that two-faced, disingenuous aspect of e-bike advocacy.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Cleared2land said:


> You have contributed to the 'hater' problem by your very statements, joking or not. Locally, your statement is a real thing and emtb's are not permitted on most, if not all trails in the region.


They are not permitted on most, but not all, of the trails around me. However, that really hasn't had any effect. I see quite a few of them on the nearly all of the trails. Signs letting them know that they're not allowed have no effect on the users.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

SteveF said:


> It'll never happen. Because they are motorized and marketers and advocates keep trying to hawk them as an alternative to use on non-motorized trails. It's cynical and misleading and it'll never be accepted as just "another bike innovation."
> 
> Talk about cynical. Advocates will tout and shout about how the pedal assist motor is such a big effin' deal, then when advocating for trail access, talk out the other sides of their mouths and downplay that very defining characteristic! I am truly disgusted by that two-faced, disingenuous aspect of e-bike advocacy.


I'm seeing more and more of them on the local trails where they are not permitted. I expect this trend to continue. Railing about it on an internet forum will not change anything.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Curveball said:


> I'm seeing more and more of them on the local trails where they are not permitted. I expect this trend to continue. Railing about it on an internet forum will not change anything.


Believe me, I would like nothing more than to never read or hear about the damned things again. But as long as people keep bringing them up, I will continue to "rail."


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I don't know of any trails where they're not allowed here.
They're great.



SteveF said:


> Believe me, I would like nothing more than to never read or hear about the damned things again. But as long as people keep bringing them up, I will continue to "rail."


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

For me the problem i can see is speed. I am in Quebec/Canada. Our Ebike limit is 32km/h(20 miles).
A lot of what i see is Ebikes that have the assist limited according to our laws. But on some bike paths
there are a few illegal fast ones and with maybe 2 accidents in a short time complaints might be a problem.
This is a bit crazy, some have the pedals under the seat but are called Ebikes. I guess running out of battery 
it becomes time to put the pedals on that *Ebike*. A few want them banned but now they are allowed 
just about everywhere.


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## Dawgprimo (Mar 7, 2004)

My biggest beef with E-bikes (E-Mountain bikes on trails) is that they are motorized or electric assist but motorized all the same (Call it what you want.....) and there will be a point in the future where they (Government -Federal or State or Provincial, Municipal, land owners....whoever) will have to address trail access (who has the right?.....walkers, hikers, runners, bikers, horse riders.....whoever), address trail erosion (More people on the trails....?) and the definition of motorized versus non-motorized.
Also, once electric off road motorcycles become more popular some will see or read into it that there is no difference between E-bikes and E-motorcycles........hate to say that.

There are lots of trails but not all, that were built by mountain bikers for mountain bikers that now have hikers and runners on them daily. Due to Apps like Trailforks and others anyone can find them and they become popular.
I have been mountain biking a long time and trail access has always been an issue.
I just don't want us Mountain bikers to loose access and the solution is simple.
No motorized vehicles allowed.
Similar to Utah and Colorado have right now. I believe Washington State is similar and other places also.
(I believe the was the rule when I was there last......)
Let the E-bikes have the roads and all the gravel roads they want.

Just my 2cents.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

Whatever one's take on eMTB may be, it's getting more and more difficult to tell them apart from manual bikes at a quick glance and to the casual observer. That and a lack of resources to enforcement restrictions means you'll be seeing them more and more like it or not.

Opponents would be well advised against taking direct action against the property/person of those riding eMTBs.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Disabled American's Act (or whatever) enforces access to parks, attractions, and businesses for people who are not as able as others. It might be an uphill battle in a lot of cases to prevent ebikes since they are used by a lot of disabled people as a mobility device. Access areas and do things they normally can't do.

Access devices can be banned if they are a hazard in the business, park, or area. For instance, a golf cart used as a mobility device. Actual wheelchairs and electric wheelchairs can't be banned. So Segways and ebikes can be banned but the trail operators would have to document why to the DOJ (I think that is how it is done). As a Segway owner, I have argued with other owners who are disabled but think the wheelchair rule is the same as mobility devices (seaways, ebikes, golf cart). Segway owners thinking they can take them anywhere. I only argued that you couldn't make airlines take the Segways onboard since the smaller Segways like mine are chinese knockoffs and use giant packs of laptop batteries that can cascade into fires if damaged or overcharged/discharged. Easy to document that hazard.

Since, ebikes are quiet, hazard free, and provide access to less able bodied people, I bet it would be hard to ban them. At least until their speed is a hazard. People in authority likely don't bother for that reason.


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> I don't know of any trails where they're not allowed here.
> They're great.


They are not allowed on most of the public land trails I enjoy here. Mountain bike advocates got out in front of the problem and worked with the state to classify them properly as motorized so they're banned from non-motorized "natural surface" (ie, mtb/multi-use) trails.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

ZX11 said:


> Disabled American's Act (or whatever) enforces access to parks, attractions, and businesses for people who are not as able as others. It might be an uphill battle in a lot of cases to prevent ebikes since they are used by a lot of disabled people as a mobility device. Access areas and do things they normally can't do.
> 
> Access devices can be banned if they are a hazard in the business, park, or area. For instance, a golf cart used as a mobility device. Actual wheelchairs and electric wheelchairs can't be banned. So Segways and ebikes can be banned but the trail operators would have to document why to the DOJ (I think that is how it is done). As a Segway owner, I have argued with other owners who are disabled but think the wheelchair rule is the same as mobility devices (seaways, ebikes, golf cart). Segway owners thinking they can take them anywhere. I only argued that you couldn't make airlines take the Segways onboard since the smaller Segways like mine are chinese knockoffs and use giant packs of laptop batteries that can cascade into fires if damaged or overcharged/discharged. Easy to document that hazard.
> 
> Since, ebikes are quiet, hazard free, and provide access to less able bodied people, I bet it would be hard to ban them. At least until their speed is a hazard. People in authority likely don't bother for that reason.


That's not how ADA works.

Here's a little info courtesy of Tenn.



https://www.americantrails.org/images/documents/TN-trail-ada.pdf


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

chazpat said:


> That's not how ADA works.
> 
> Here's a little info courtesy of Tenn.
> 
> ...


I read it but it is their interpretation of the Act. Courts are likely to think different. And it, like the Act, seems to contradict itself.

A disabled person using, and needing, an ebike to access a bike trail would have a right to use the trail like able bodied people on a bike. ADA courts would destroy the person objecting unless that person could show the ebike was a hazard. Being abled to ban vehicles such as gas powered ATV's and OHV's sounds right but ebikes will not fall under those categories.

I can see them being able to ban the youngsters on ebikes but then the youngster would just need to claim disability that the eBike mitigates. Checkmate, as you can't ask people about their disability or details of it.

I don't ride them and don't like how the good of the ADA has turned into abuse by those claiming to be disabled to gain advantage. But, I think the eBikes are hard to ban.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

SteveF said:


> They are not allowed on most of the public land trails I enjoy here. Mountain bike advocates got out in front of the problem and worked with the state to classify them properly as motorized so they're banned from non-motorized "natural surface" (ie, mtb/multi-use) trails.


We've embraced them as "bikes".


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## rod9301 (Oct 30, 2004)

SteveF said:


> They are not allowed on most of the public land trails I enjoy here. Mountain bike advocates got out in front of the problem and worked with the state to classify them properly as motorized so they're banned from non-motorized "natural surface" (ie, mtb/multi-use) trails.


In what backward state are you?

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk


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## Ft.Rock (May 7, 2020)

I will pedal my 40 lb. Stinky to the grave. A lot of the people (non-SS age) who advocate them like to quicken the climb to get to the "fun parts", that's their business but doesn't match up with how I view life. If I get to the point where I need a motor to get up the climb I'm probably not in good enough shape to really do the descent - it's like 4WD allows rookies to get stuck in more remote places. I have a lot of questions about the extraction of lithium in places like Bolivia. Elon Musk's "We'll coup whoever we want" speaks volumes to me. That's not a business, or ethical, model I support so I try to minimize how many things I own that need charging. A phone and a computer are more than enough for me and I don't take those into the woods. No KOM for me I guess


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

ZX11 said:


> I read it but it is their interpretation of the Act. Courts are likely to think different. And it, like the Act, seems to contradict itself.
> 
> A disabled person using, and needing, an ebike to access a bike trail would have a right to use the trail like able bodied people on a bike. ADA courts would destroy the person objecting unless that person could show the ebike was a hazard. Being abled to ban vehicles such as gas powered ATV's and OHV's sounds right but ebikes will not fall under those categories.
> 
> ...


Not quite that easy to claim you're disabled and allowed to ride an ebike when you're not disabled:

*§ 35.137 Mobility devices.*

(a) _Use of wheelchairs and manually-powered mobility aids. _A public entity shall permit individuals with mobility disabilities to use wheelchairs and manually-powered mobility aids, such as walkers, crutches, canes, braces, or other similar devices designed for use by individuals with mobility disabilities in any areas open to pedestrian use.
(b)
(1) _Use of other power-driven mobility devices. _A public entity shall make reasonable modifications in its policies, practices, or procedures to permit the use of other power-driven mobility devices by individuals with mobility disabilities, unless the public entity can demonstrate that the class of other power-driven mobility devices cannot be operated in accordance with legitimate safety requirements that the public entity has adopted pursuant to § 35.130(h).
(2) _Assessment factors._In determining whether a particular other power-driven mobility device can be allowed in a specific facility as a reasonable modification under paragraph (b)(1) of this section, a public entity shall consider-
(i) The type, size, weight, dimensions, and speed of the device;
(ii) The facility's volume of pedestrian traffic (which may vary at different times of the day, week, month, or year);
(iii) The facility's design and operational characteristics (e.g., whether its service, program, or activity is conducted indoors, its square footage, the density and placement of stationary devices, and the availability of storage for the device, if requested by the user);
(iv) Whether legitimate safety requirements can be established to permit the safe operation of the other power-driven mobility device in the specific facility; and
(v) Whether the use of the other power-driven mobility device creates a substantial risk of serious harm to the immediate environment or natural or cultural resources, or poses a conflict with Federal land management laws and regulations.


(c)
(1) _Inquiry about disability._ A public entity shall not ask an individual using a wheelchair or other power-driven mobility device questions about the nature and extent of the individual's disability.
(2) _Inquiry into use of other power-driven mobility device._ A public entity may ask a person using an other power-driven mobility device to provide a credible assurance that the mobility device is required because of the person's disability. A public entity that permits the use of an other power-driven mobility device by an individual with a mobility disability shall accept the presentation of a valid, State-issued, disability parking placard or card, or other State-issued proof of disability as a credible assurance that the use of the other power-driven mobility device is for the individual's mobility disability. In lieu of a valid, State-issued disability parking placard or card, or State-issued proof of disability, a public entity shall accept as a credible assurance a verbal representation, not contradicted by observable fact, that the other power-driven mobility device is being used for a mobility disability. A "valid" disability placard or card is one that is presented by the individual to whom it was issued and is otherwise in compliance with the State of issuance's requirements for disability placards or cards.

Pretty sure a judge can ask someone to provide some proof of their disability.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

SteveF said:


> They are not allowed on most of the public land trails I enjoy here. Mountain bike advocates got out in front of the problem and worked with the state to classify them properly as motorized so they're banned from non-motorized "natural surface" (ie, mtb/multi-use) trails.


You're describing Washington where we banned them from natural trails. However, see post #42 above.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Banners might get together, build walls around parking lots for motor vehicules.
A lot less cyclists killed *legaly*


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## downcountry (Apr 27, 2019)

Personally, I think zealots on either extreme 
of any issue, including e-bikes, are assholes.
But of the e-bike discussions I’ve followed here on mtbr, my impression is that the anti’s are the 
worst. They seem to revel in their ignorance and closed- mindedness, many if not most having never even ridden one. 
I don’t own an e-bike, and have only ridden 2.
I might well own one someday, maybe not. 
Here in Indiana, the state parks department has opened the 3 parks with mtb trails to class 1 e-bikes for a 1 year trial. It will be interesting to see what comes of it, I’m keeping an open mind.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

What does riding an ebike have to do with being open minded?


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

D. Inoobinati said:


> What does riding an ebike have to do with being open minded?


Possibly being open-minded to the idea of legalizing them on trails.


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## Ft.Rock (May 7, 2020)

downcountry said:


> Personally, I think zealots on either extreme
> of any issue, including e-bikes, are assholes.
> But of the e-bike discussions I've followed here on mtbr, my impression is that the anti's are the
> worst. They seem to revel in their ignorance and closed- mindedness, many if not most having never even ridden one.
> ...


 I love statements that imply that anyone who disagrees with one's position is showing closed-mindedness, it's such an open minded perspective! Although I will never own, or ride one, please note that I am completely open to the idea of people riding them to ease the struggles of climbing the mountains of Indiana.


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## downcountry (Apr 27, 2019)

Ft.Rock said:


> I love statements that imply that anyone who disagrees with one's position is showing closed-mindedness, it's such an open minded perspective! Although I will never own, or ride one, please note that I am completely open to the idea of people riding them to ease the struggles of climbing the mountains of Indiana.


I never implied any such thing. 
Read more carefully. 
On the other hand, 
you are implying Indiana has no mtb trails 
with long steep climbs. 
Which means you are ignorant.


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## Ft.Rock (May 7, 2020)

downcountry said:


> I never implied any such thing.
> Read more carefully.
> On the other hand,
> you are implying Indiana has no mtb trails
> ...


...Or it means you have no friggin' sense of humor. As far as implications go; 
"But of the e-bike discussions I've followed here on mtbr, my impression is that the anti's are the
worst. They seem to revel in their ignorance and closed- mindedness, many if not most having never even ridden one." I suppose you're right; it's not an implication it's a statement. A statement intended to marginalize any post on here not "open minded" enough to embrace motor bikes on mtb trails. Enjoy the climbs, however you choose to do them.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

The main thing people had against emtb's was the perception that as they had motors, they would destroy trails by spinning the rear tyres out of each corner like dirt bikes.
Dirt bikes was the only comparison they had, which turned out to be totally wrong.
Some people can't handle being wrong...


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## Cleared2land (Aug 31, 2012)

NordieBoy said:


> The main thing people had against emtb's was the perception that as they had motors, they would destroy trails by spinning the rear tyres out of each corner like dirt bikes.


I think it's the STRAVA guys that are loosing on the Leader Boards to ebikes. For those who are competitive, they have a point. I'm not a fast guy so I couldn't give a sh!t.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Cleared2land said:


> I think it's the STRAVA guys that are loosing on the Leader Boards to ebikes. For those who are competitive, they have a point. I'm not a fast guy so I couldn't give a sh!t.


My problem with Strava is the lack of granularity. I'd like it if you could select segments on a ride and tick the "used motor" or even "don't count" option, but for, say, descents, the times count as per normal. Not the current whole ride or nothing setup. Would work for segments that were assigned incorrectly as well.
If you are on an eBike, but don't use any assist, it's just a bike. A heavy bike.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

NordieBoy said:


> My problem with Strava is the lack of granularity. I'd like it if you could select segments on a ride and tick the "used motor" or even "don't count" option, but for, say, descents, the times count as per normal. Not the current whole ride or nothing setup. Would work for segments that were assigned incorrectly as well.
> If you are on an eBike, but don't use any assist, it's just a bike. A heavy bike.


I think the whole segments thing is a bit goofy. If you're on an ebike, you're not expending as much energy so one could ride with the motor and then turn it off when they got to the segment and have an advantage over someone who pedaled under their own power to that point, though maybe not so much on a downhill though tiredness certainly affects that. And it's the same for segments in general on bicycles: did the rider pedal continuously to get there or did they take frequent breaks and go into the segment rested? Did they take a big break before starting the segment?


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

It's cool to see other XC riders deep in the sticks who've gotten there "by fair means". 

You can do whatever an owner allows on private land, in a park, at a resort, but there's gotta be a place where the prevailing ethic is, "under your own power".


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

D. Inoobinati said:


> E-bikes should be mandatory for any commute less than 10 miles. Employers should be given carbon credits for all e-bikes used for commuting to their workplace. If you hit an e-biker on the road, you get your car taken away for 5 years. Schools should ban kid drop-offs by car and give kids dropped off by e-bike free lunch. Health insurers should knock %50 off premiums for anyone that logs 1,000+ miles of yearly e-bike use. Post offices and supermarkets should only have e-bike parking. Cops should pull over any e-bikers they see them and give them a Civic Engagement Medal. Old guys who take e-bikes to Dunkin Donuts get a free Viagra pill with their donut. The local paper should publish a photo profile of any person who gets their first e-bike. And there should be yearly Mard E-Gras parades in every US community with a population over 10,000, with e-bike floats and naked people and booze and music and other stuff.
> 
> Just so long as they stay off the trails.


When I started reading your post, I was going to say..."Sieg Heil!, you freakin' Nazi"...but when I go to the part about the annual Mardi Gras parades with e-bike floats, naked people, booze, and music, I was all in!


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## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

Legitimate ADA riders should be allowed on trails with e-bikes, and I doubt there would be much pushback on that. It's the others, and we all know who they are, that are the cause for concern.


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

deuxdiesel said:


> Legitimate ADA riders should be allowed on trails with e-bikes, and I doubt there would be much pushback on that.


Thing is: where does it end?? I'd like to climb Half Dome someday, but I don't have the fitness. Should I be allowed to install an elevator on the side of the mountain to accommodate my physical limitation??

Closer to mountain biking-what about people with limitations that prevent them from balancing a 2 wheel bike??? Should 3-wheel electric motorbikes be allowed on mtb trails to accommodate their limitation??

As soon as one thing is allowed, people start pushing for the next thing. That's just how humans work.


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## D. Inoobinati (Aug 28, 2020)

exactly.... 

Using the "disability" angle is completely inane. They're really arguing for "entitlement".


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

I live close to an old railway. The tracks were removed about 30 years ago. It is now an easy cycling path, no big hills but over the years 
stuff changed. Of course in winter they do tracks for skiers but 8 months are mixed users.Some sections have asphalt so skaters, and motorizied
whellchairs are part of the mix. On some long descents some get quite fast, so why in my area to be legal we must wear a helmet on an assisted 
bike but those on 3 or 4 wheels are not? All subjects for lawyers to make money when those debates get to court.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

During the time of the day and period of the week that I ride, the average age of an e biker is about 70.
I have absolutely no compunction to justify my e bike for exercise or any other logical reason. My decision is based 100% on the fun factor and nothing else. If I get some exercise, great. If I hurt, that is not so great as I hurt enough already just by being on the right side of the dirt.
Lately I have been gravitating towards dirt touring and away from single track. The e bike gives me great autonomy to do as I please.
No one needs to feel sorry for me or have contempt for me. I don't feel one damned bit cheated by using my e bike. I went from 1,000 miles a year to 5,000 miles a year.
A short ride for me in a day is 20 miles. a long day is 150 miles.
I have a big smile on my face, I am friendly, I slow way down for the handicap, kids and dogs and have not encountered much of any animosity towards my e bike. My e bike is definitely not stealthy.


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