# Biking -> Running -> Triathlon



## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

Has anyone else made the transition from biking to running? I'm not a runner by nature but you can't swing a dead cat and not hit a friendly 5K around here. And fun, light hearted cycling events don't seem to exist. We have a time trial series where if you can't maintain a 24mph average you just don't fit in. SO, I've started dabbling in running and a short unofficial tri to get my feet wet (so to speak) 1/4 Mile Swim, 9 Mile Bike, 5K Run.

Although this isn't specifically a commuter topic, this is the forum I call home and it didn't seen to fit anywhere else either. It's actually a branch from the "Wind" thread


bedwards1000 said:


> Click Here to branch back---------------^^^





rodar y rodar said:


> Totally off topic: it suddenly seems kind of odd that so few triathaletes hang out on bike forums. There is a generous mix of roadies, MTBers and cross racers on all the cycling sites I hound, but I don`t think I`ve ever heard mention of anything tri related except an occasional suggestion to borrow from a bit of their equipment. They must hang out more with runners.





AndrwSwitch said:


> ...Triathletes aren't really cyclists.  Seriously, though, it seems to be a very different group. I've met a fair number of people who do triathlons, and a lot of them don't even see it as racing, which is odd to me - they have a massed start and a podium at the end, are they not trying to beat each other?? Anyway, I've met a fair number of people who've done some triathlons, gotten interested in cycling, started competing on bikes, and ditched tris. I don't know if any of my teammates are currently doing tris, even those that used to - it seems that a lot focus on cycling, even if within cycling you might run into them racing mountain bikes in the spring and summer, 'cross bikes in the Fall and winter, and on road-going group rides year-round. My joke is that triathletes don't actually enjoy cycling. Hard-core roadies sometimes have a very odd way that they enjoy cycling, but it takes all kinds.  Some triathletes seem to think it's okay to do most of their cycling training on spin bikes or a trainer, and rent a bike for the race. Weird! The transitions are supposed to be exciting because they need to be able to start, stop and turn on bikes there, while it may not come up anywhere on the actual course.
> 
> Supposedly, cycling is really quad-heavy even for those of us not trying to save our legs for the run. So I don't know if there's actually a setup difference there, or if in the context of triathlon, something that's neutral or a slight negative for us just becomes more positive.
> 
> I'll be curious to hear if you turn up some setup differences.





bedwards1000 said:


> Keeping OT: I'm signing up for a local unofficial tri. I've heard that triathletes set their bikes up to save their legs for running too. I was wondering if the opposite is possible. Can a bike be set up to use similar muscles as running? Since I don't run I'd like to get some of that conditioning on the bike.
> 
> Most of the triathletes I know around here like the biking part best. A few of the do a local group ride and they are at the front of the pack.





AndrwSwitch said:


> I was thinking about this...
> 
> I think that mountain bikers have a little less imbalanced leg development than strict roadies. But I don't have a good way to explain it.
> 
> ...


It is my shins and calves that get clobbered. OK, in the past 3 years I've ridden over 10,000 miles and run about 5, 3.2 of them at once. I'd expect a little leg soreness.

(after that awkward start to the post let's see if anybody responds)


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

It was by doing 3 mile runs all at once, after not running, that I found out I have some issues with my ankles. 

Here's a training plan that someone without a physical problem (so, not me) can use to work up to running without developing a physical problem.

Cool Running | The Couch-to-5K ® Running Plan

People are supposed to develop fair running technique without getting into coaching - just don't try to do something weird either. But, I dunno, maybe it's worth a little more research. I ran in high school and was fine, so I fool myself that I have good technique; actually most people who I think know what they're talking about say it's fine, except for some lateral instability that's probably my problem, and which I'm now working on.

The point being, your shins and calves are probably fine for running if you ease into it.


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## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

I went the other way. Used to run, found that my knees and shins could not take the pounding anymore, took up cycling. Around here, one can always find fun road rides or fun MTB rides posted up on the various group calendars, so if I want an organized event I can usually find one. Sorry I cannot help.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

Yeah, I went from couch to 5K in 1 run - the 5K. I think the key is that I'm going to actually have to run a few time before the next one. The next 5K my friends are trying to get me to do is 5/19. I'm trying to use this forum to motivate me.


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## wschruba (Apr 13, 2012)

Shoes. Get good shoes.

Crappy shoes will cause more problems than they solve. Don't expect to get off sub $100 without a sale.

That said, I took up cycling because I have a bum knee...so no runs for me.


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## FTW Special K (Jun 15, 2010)

wschruba said:


> Shoes. Get good shoes.
> 
> Crappy shoes will cause more problems than they solve. Don't expect to get off sub $100 without a sale.
> 
> That said, I took up cycling because I have a bum knee...so no runs for me.


+1. Shoes can make huge difference in how you feel after a run! Just like tires are made for different trail conditions so are shoes made for different types of runners. Go to a true runners store and have them watch you while running on a treadmill. They can determine if you run with a pronation, heel impact, etc. and recommend a shoe accordingly. Like wschruba said you're looking at $100+ for shoes but they're worth it.

I started biking a few years ago and started running late last year. I just did a half marathon last weekend but i still bike too! Running seems to use your calves and hamstrings a lot more than biking so start on flat courses slowly upping your mileage by about 10% each week.


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## cr45h (Jan 13, 2007)

I consider myself both a biker and a runner. I do races in both sports. I've done anything from 5ks to marathons running, and sprint races to endurance races on bikes. Pretty much the whole gamut. I generally just tailor my training to whatever race I'm signed up for next and do more of that specific sport. I love doing both though.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Good idea, Bedwards.

A.S. (from the other thread): "I don't think there's much of a difference between TT and Tri except for the occasional Tri bike that's not UCI-legal. Road racers' TT bikes have a few more rules to comply with."
^^Seems to agree with what I found on the Wikipedia entry for "time trial bicycle":

Differences from triathlon bicycles 

1.a triathlon bicycle will sometimes have a steeper seat tube angle (and thus a more forward saddle position), which places less stress on the hamstring leg muscles, thereby saving strength in the hamstrings for the run which follows the bike portion of the race. Several frames come with a seat post that when installed one way, give the UCI required 5 cm distance from the saddle nose to the center of the bottom bracket and when installed the other way gives a better tri geometry
2.some triathlon frames do not meet the strict rules governing the design and overall shape of bicycle frames specified by the UCI and adopted by USCF for use in sanctioned event.
The bike leg of a triathlon may be hilly and long (112 miles in the Ironman), and so the higher gearing, higher weight, and less comfort mentioned above for time trial bikes may not apply to a triathlon bike.

A.S. : "I've met a fair number of people who do triathlons, and a lot of them don't even see it as racing, which is odd to me - they have a massed start and a podium at the end, are they not trying to beat each other?? "
Sounds like randoneurs to me. Except that they hang out with other cyclists. They`re just crazy, not antisocial 

Bedwards: " I've heard that triathletes set their bikes up to save their legs for running too. I was wondering if the opposite is possible. Can a bike be set up to use similar muscles as running? Since I don't run I'd like to get some of that conditioning on the bike."
If you figure it out, I`m sure CB would love to hear it. Get in shape for running without doing anything crazy, like torturing yourself with runs.

A.S. : " I think that mountain bikers have a little less imbalanced leg development than strict roadies. But I don't have a good way to explain it."
I would think so too. Even without the technicalities concerning cadences and arcs of power, mtb has riders hanging off the bike every which way, wheelying and hopping, absorbing landings and doing rapid mini-squats on the bumpies. Road riding is pretty much just a question of in the saddle or out of the saddle. Tri and TT, probably even less variation- just spin sesions with wind.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

rodar y rodar said:


> ... Road riding is pretty much just a question of in the saddle or out of the saddle. Tri and TT, probably even less variation- just spin sesions with wind.


You haven't seen the roads around here. Plenty of weight transfer and bump management going on.

I did a mile on the treadmill after my commute in this morning. I did it barefoot since I only had cycling shoe and work shoes. My calves are a little tight but I won't know about the shins until tomorrow.

I'm always surprised at how little overlap there is between the running and biking. This morning was no exception.

So far I haven't figured out the magic euphoria people get out of running.


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## MotoX33 (Nov 8, 2011)

The only joy I get out of running is trying to beat my previous PR's. I'll never be fast enough to win a race, but I find pleasure in seeing improvement. I'll be competing in my first full tri in July and the only part that I dread is the run. I did the swim leg with a team 2 years ago and once I finished I wished I would have just signed up to do it all.

As for training to run, I don't do any long distance (over 5k) training. I just do a lot of intervals, but I usually do one "race distance" training run a week or so before the race just so I can get a feel for how long it will take me and so I can have a time to beat.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Tread mills are pretty resilient.

One of the challenges for me and running, leaving aside the physical problem I'm having with my ankle at the moment, is that I have the aerobic fitness to do too much, too soon. Actually, for years I thought that was my whole challenge; it's only been doing six months of Couch to 5k Week 1 that got me to see a physical therapist. Who ever heard of a twenty-five minute running workout with only eight minutes of actual running?? It feels less pathetic to me to do it in street clothes. I actually marked the week where the workout becomes a majority running, rather than majority walking, workout. It's week 4.

The point being, if running has been hurting you, be conservative! And, hope that you haven't done something in the past to increase your joint mobility.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

^^That sounds like about the commitment level I want to put in. Basically do most of my cardio conditioning on the bike and only run enough so I don't hurt myself and go get a little cross training in so I'm not totally lopsided.


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## CycleAddict (Aug 8, 2009)

I run a fair amount, out of convenience if nothing else. There are hardly any safe/long road cycling routes that I can take from home, and riding trails definitely means shuttling the bike to the trailhead...so running is something I can do easily from my front door. Plenty of 5k+ routes to choose from on side walks and multi use paths. Proper form and good shoes are very important, but I haven't had to spend over $100 to get a quality pair for the mileage I run (10-25K per week). I've got the fitness, but the form is something I'm still working on to prevent injury. My outer knees have bothered me a bit. 

I enjoy riding more (especially trails) but running is a good workout. Riding is much easier on the knees though, so sometimes I'll opt for a short road spin over a run (like today).


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## xufima (Jun 4, 2009)

I signed up for a 5k obstacle course with zombies for fun and got right off the couch and ran 5k and hurt my knee and couldn't walk right for weeks. Months later I was finally able to run again so I've been taking it easy and only doing 1-2 miles at a time.

It's amazing to me how different biking and running are. Running will never replace biking for me, it's just lacking in excitement, but it's something I'm planning on doing a lot more.


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## skipnay (May 8, 2012)

Never competed in a triathlon even though I use to run bike and swim everyday right after I got out of high school. Actually was running 10 miler's and half marathons when I was 13. When I was 15 I ran a 10 miler flat course in 52 minutes. 4 weeks later I was suppose to run a half marathon. 2 days after the 10 miler I sprain my ankle real bad. Couldn't walk on it. I didn't run or walk on it until the day of the half marathon. I ran hilly course in 1 hour 32 minutes. I was happy. I got 2nd place for 15 and under. 

Wish I would've stay in running, biking, and swimming. The most I ever did in the same day was swim about a mile, like 15-17 mile run and over 50 mile bike ride.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

*Obree crouch...*

So, what kind of restrictions are placed on bikes and riding positions for tri events? Is it an anything goes proposition? I`m wondering now (lots of wondering ) if anybody uses the Graeme Obree position for that. Is it illegal according to some kind of triathalete regulating body? Not really feasible outside of velodrome conditions? Ganted, the bike would have to be built for it from the ground up, but still... it worked well enough for the UCi to give it the axe after just a few seasons, you`d think it should have some potential if it were legal somewhere.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

You got me curious, and I went and found the rules, as they apply to most tris in the US.

Competitive Rules - usatriathlon.org 5

The saddle of a tri bike has to be above the crank, and within a relatively narrow fore/aft range. There's a minimum height above the ground for the crank. The bike's got to have two wheels, and both must have brakes. The bike can't be too long or too short from the crank to the front hub. No front disc wheels. No fairings.

But unless the ref thought that Obree's handlebars were unsafe, someone could use them.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

Your quote here:


rodar y rodar said:


> ...I usually ride pretty low, and have no gut to speak of, but I`ve tried riding from time to time sucked way down with my elbows on top of the bars, and it makes me feel like a circus midget stuffed into a little box.


Seems to describe this position perfectly.


rodar y rodar said:


> So, what kind of restrictions are placed on bikes and riding positions for tri events? Is it an anything goes proposition? I`m wondering now (lots of wondering ) if anybody uses the Graeme Obree position for that. Is it illegal according to some kind of triathalete regulating body? Not really feasible outside of velodrome conditions? Ganted, the bike would have to be built for it from the ground up, but still... it worked well enough for the UCi to give it the axe after just a few seasons, you`d think it should have some potential if it were legal somewhere.


I had to look it up - it doesn't even look fun.

My calves are still a little sore from last week's run but my shins never got that bad. I'm going to call it an improvement. I'll try 1-2 more runs before the 5K on Saturday and call it good. I'll see if I can set an new PR


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

AndrwSwitch said:


> You got me curious, and I went and found the rules, as they apply to most tris in the US.
> 
> Competitive Rules - usatriathlon.org


Good researching, Andrew. So it looks like their rules are more aero friendly than UCI, but do still have limitations.

I found the drafting section interresting. Kind of crazy, actually.
Depending on "Elite" or not (separate rules for elite racers??), the "drafting zone" behind another bike is either 7m or 10m long, and you have to clear it within 15 seconds when passing. Better have good acceleration! Then, when you do clear the other rider, THAT rider has 15 seconds to either move a meter to the side or drop back 7 to 10 meters. Since these are mass start events, do they only race on closed 6-lane roads? Sheesh! The drafting for vehicles is funny too. A vehicle`s "draft zone" extends 15 meters to either side! If you can`t get out of it within the time limit, I guess you`re supposed to shout, zound, or pound on a fender until that happens. It`s hard enough to get a genuine three feet- these guys want 15 meters :eekster:

"With respect to a motor vehicle (including authorized race vehicles); it is the athlete's responsibility to move out of the vehicle's drafting zone or to continually communicate to the vehicle to move away."



bedwards1000 said:


> Your quote here:
> 
> Seems to describe this position perfectly.
> 
> ...


Do you mean that riding with my elbows on the bars describes Obree`s position? Not really, if you`re noting the resemblance to his "praying mantis" thing- he did change to a "superman" style after his original method was banned. To my untrained eyes, that looks like pretty much just overextended aerobars. When I (or you, or anybody else with basically standard geometry) do the mantis thing, it`s closer to a pseudo aerobars position. If you were to try coppying that crouch on my bike, your knees would be where you elbows needed to be, so arms either have to stick out in front or off to the sides. Notice how his position is canted way forward. It`s also interresting that he doesn`t seem to even come close to full leg extension.

No, it doesn`t look like a lot of fun. But I`m pretty uncomfortable just bending down to a normal aerobar position, so maybe it wouldn`t be that much MORE uncomortable? Now wondering: maybe the point in aero bars is to get the arms and elbows out of the flow more than to get head and back lower.

Good luck on next weekend`s PR : )


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I am in the midst of the bike-to-run transition at the moment. I have always felt like the 'biking muscles' didn't really translate to running (because when I would run I would feel slow and weak compared to how I felt on the bike)...but after getting a little more 'serious' about the running, I'm finding that a lot of the biking endurance, muscle fitness stuff does translate pretty nicely to running. There was a couple weeks of funky pains and weird adjustment to running more regularly, but It's improving now. I was getting a knee pain thing at first, but in the past few weeks it hasn't re-surfaced. I'm assuming that some tendons and ligaments just need to get used to the impact of running...I have the luxury of taking it pretty slow (training for an event in September), so I'm really ramping up the running slowly. I did a 5k last week (my first organized one) and I was 23rd out of 91. Felt pretty good and no pain (other than the muscle stuff that you're supposed to have). 

I have no plans for a tri though... maybe some day.


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## rtrypwr (Apr 7, 2007)

My wife did the couch to 5k thing, neither of us have ever been much for running...but now are actually enjoying it. Did our first 5k last month and did a 10k for a marathon relay a week ago. Finished my leg in 1:05:43 so I was happy! Enjoy it enough to sign up for a 1/2 marathon before the end of the summer. Around here there are not many tri s but we have some run/paddle/bike races that I signed up to do too! I think it is just the addiction of exercising and pushing myself that is getting me to get these crazy ideas!


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## oromis (Jul 13, 2011)

I hate running. As a soccer player I always had to do too much of it, even more when I made smart comments to the coach. However I do enjoy trail running. There is a bike trail nearby that I hate to ride but love to run. Its about 4 miles long. By doing lots of biking and twice a month trail runs I find that I stay in pretty good shape for either activity. Spurred by a debate on my local mtb forum I decided to see just how good I was at running. One day I got home from work and decided to go for a little run around town. 4 miles into it I still felt okay and decided to see how far I could make it. I made it 9 miles before my feet were killing me but my legs still weren't hurting. It was not fun but I ended up pushing out a half marathon that night. It was 11:30 at night when I finished with a time of two hours twenty something minutes. After that I lost all interest in running. I have no desire to beat my time or compete.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I've read that it's quite difficult to complete a triathlon without accumulating penalties. So sometimes, people finish a triathlon first only to have to wait while penalties get calculated, to figure out if they won.

The swim is supposed to fan people out some. But in any sport, there's a near-elite group that tends to be very close in ability. I'd be surprised if that's not true for triathlon too - I wonder how that plays out in the bike leg.


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## ducktape (May 21, 2007)

Last year after having a go at DH I decided to give up biking for a while....well I can't really give up biking I did end up buying a bmx or two to ride around with the kids.

However between not having a bike the kids seemed to have starter riding their a lot more often after I got rid of mine :nono: so it lead to me doing a bit of running to keep up with them on occasion.

Obviously not having a bike means no exercise apart from pushing a vacuum cleaner and mop around as my daily job, that was when I started entertaining the idea of running, besides in half an hour you can get the eqivalent work out of 1hr + of riding (makes sense if you're time constrained or bored of doing the same loops riding all the time). And besides buying shoes (which I haven't done yet) running doesn't cost as much as biking either!

The first time I ran to the end of our road (3km gravel road) it just about killed me, could hardly walk back. Now I can do it in about 20 minutes (on a good day). It helps that we got a small energetic kind of dog a few months ago who needs to be walked every day and makes a perfect running companion!

Combine that with finding a couple of vintage road bikes that I think are worth doing up, and I can certainly see my exercise regime being something like running a couple of times a week and riding once a week.....just doesn't seem to be enough time to go for decent rides these days!! And I thought once the kids were at school I'd be in riding heaven

Riding provides "me time" and a freedom to go afar, running is also good "me time" and it's a different freedom because you can do it anywhere with not many excuses not to!
Of course depending on the climate I reckon running is an excellent option during the winter and more riding in the summer when the temperatures are hot and weather mighty fine!



bedwards1000 said:


> Has anyone else made the transition from biking to running? I'm not a runner by nature but you can't swing a dead cat and not hit a friendly 5K around here. And fun, light hearted cycling events don't seem to exist. We have a time trial series where if you can't maintain a 24mph average you just don't fit in. SO, I've started dabbling in running and a short unofficial tri to get my feet wet (so to speak) 1/4 Mile Swim, 9 Mile Bike, 5K Run.
> 
> Although this isn't specifically a commuter topic, this is the forum I call home and it didn't seen to fit anywhere else either. It's actually a branch from the "Wind" thread
> 
> ...


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## ghettocruiser (Jun 21, 2008)

Good advice on the thread about easing into it. Speaking as someone who does lots of long bike rides and has virtually no running routine, it's very, very easy to put on your running shoes and try to go way too far, way too fast, way too soon.

A bicycle racer who just dives into running is connecting a very big engine to a very weak transmission.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

^^ Well said.

I'm hoping my transmission heals enough to run the 5K this weekend. After that I'll try to ease into it more gradually.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

OK, I did a respectable 25:25 on the 5K. The legs were a little (OK, a lot) tight after the race but not too bad 8 hours later. I got on the bike for an easy 12 miles or so this afternoon to ride to and from a party to keep them loose.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Whooo! Did your wife race today?


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

Yup, she beat me by 35 seconds. You'll see by our finish photos, I look faster. The legs are a little stiff but SFSG on the second day. I like the races. Not crazy about the training.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

bedwards1000 said:


> Yup, she beat me by 35 seconds.


Perfect!


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

I did another 5K last night. This time it was a trail run. It was the longest (and hottest) day 5K. My couch to 5K training seems to be: Get off the couch and run a 5K. My training miles total about 3 not including the races.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

I hear that training method works well with a high malt diet :lol:
Well, congratulations on another cross training effort. Did it leave you in pain?


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

My after race pain level seems to drop every race. I just need to do them frequently enough to keep up a training schedule. 

Oh, and I beat my wife by over a minute. 

I'll work on the high malt diet after tonight's ride home. It's a sticky 88F here already at 10AM


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## Toff (Sep 11, 2004)

I did the classic biking alot to running mistake a while ago.

I have a nice 2 mile running trail in my neighborhood so I did the 2 mile loop and always felt good.

One day I wanted to keep going and for some unknown reason I had 10 in my mind as a goal.

2 miles: Felt great!
4 miles: Felt great!
6 miles: Felt great!
8 miles: I don't feel so good ....
9 miles: I feel like ****, my hip hurts bad but I'm close so I'm gonna make myself finish.
10 miles: I felt like I had been in a bad bad bike wreck. I limped home and parts of my body were sore for a month.

Stupid running.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Ha. I did your couch to 5k method and ended up with a sprain. I'm finally progressing through my plan though, and my fiancee and I are talking about doing a 5k together at the end. I'm tempted to try to do it fast.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

I did my first tri this weekend. It was unofficial meaning that somebody organized it, made the routes and at 8:30 yelled "GO". You had to keep your own time but it was a great non-threatening way to get into the sport. 1/4mi swim, 9 mile bike, 5k run. I did it in 1:07:50. 

I've kept up my pattern of only running in races. So far I'd done four 5Ks and I'm definitely getting stronger and recovering faster. I can't imagine going out for a run when I have bikes to ride.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Pretty cool, Bedwards! The casual atmosphere does make it sound a lot less threatening, more fun. About how many people participated? Hopefully not too much of a zoo feeling. And I hoe you didnt blow it by comming in several seconds ahead of your wife again! It sounds like you enjoyed the event, but arent sold on making it into a new pasion?



bedwards1000 said:


> I can't imagine going out for a run when I have bikes to ride.


If that thought scares you, imagine spending your extra cash on a collection of running shoes when there are still tires available that you havent tried yet!


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

I think there were about 60 people which was just about right. Not too zooey but enough to be competitive with. I love the events. I'm just not sold on the running parts. I'm still trying to ease into it. I came in about 12 minutes ahead of my wife. We are definitely doing a "real" on sometime. Including the Shawnee Peak Great Adventure Race which seems like a short run except it is up the face of a ski mountain.

Edit: Better link:The Great Adventure Challenge at Pleasant Mountain | Bridgton, ME


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## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

Nice work bedwards!


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

I did a FUN tri this weekend. 

2.5 miles of kayaking: As my wife said, every year there are 2 people on sit on top kayaks...but they are never the same 2. That was us this year. Paddling our azzes off and at the back of the pack.

16 miles of cross country mountain biking: I moved from somewhere in the back 1/3 of the pack to #3 our of 100 or so in the bike section. Mostly a cross country course with not a whole lot of technical stuff but lots of superficial mud from the rain the night before.

2 miles of hiking: 1 mile up the mountain with a 1200' elevation gain then 1 mile back down.

I came in 3rd overall! Better than I imagined.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Very cool :thumbsup:
Kayaking sounds more my speed than swimming, and hiking DEFINITELY sounds better than running, but did everybody actually walk the hike, or did most run it? And it sounds like most of the entrants were in single kayaks, or were you all in tandems?


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Congrats, that's great. I agree with Rodar, the kayaking is definitely more tempting than swimming. We have one here with kayaking, but it's also in springtime in a cold river. It used to have xc skiing too but I think the snow was too unrelieable that late in the year.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

I'm better in a kayak than I am swimming. My morning swims amounted to about 4 total this year. Not that the SUMMER IS OVER! We have a winter tri in southern Maine too. I may have to try it this year. I may try cyclocross next.

Here are a few more details and pics of the race: Great Adventure Challenge


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I finally finished a 5k of my own. Or rather, one in competition. My regular run is probably a bit longer at this point.

Woohoo! 26:33, so a bit slower than yours. But my ankles aren't murdering me this morning, and that was the real thing I was worried about.

Amusingly enough, it made me a lot faster than most people at the event. I was worried at the start that my fiancee and I were too far forward, and we'd get tangled up with a bunch of faster people when the race started. But that turned out not to be the case.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

:thumbsup: Cool! I continue to almost never run unless in competition. 26:33 is a great time for a first 5K. I'm always surprised how close to the front of the pack I am for no training but we both have teh advantage of a lot of cardio on bikes.

I actually WON overall the last 5K I raced in.  Dancing Trees Annual "winter warmth" 5K Road RaceIt really pays to run a race with few participants. It's really fun to win an organized race. Even if the time isn't world class.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Just chiming in on my progress with running... I did the 'Tough Mudder' last weekend (11 miles, up to 8600ft of elevation). The event has something like 20 obstacles thrown in, which sounds brutal, but for the most part they were actually a nice break from the running. I had worked up to running 6 miles tops (I ran the commute a few times), but regularly ran 3.5 to 4 miles. 

Knees felt good, legs felt good...after the event my upper body was more sore than my lower body, so I'm declaring success on the running. Now to find a motivator to keep it up...


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## Dwayne (Jun 3, 2005)

I've been biking for about 16 or 17 years now (and I'm 31, so over half my life). Four years ago or so I got into running, signed up for a marathon for my first race and trained for it for four months, ran that in 4:05 (if I remember right). Ran it last year at 3:35, but the half marathon is my favorite distance. Ran the Atlanta Publix Half back in March in 1:32:45, I've got the next one coming up next weekend on the 7th, but my run training has fallen off a lot since I started bike commuting a month ago, so we'll see, but I'm hoping under 1:35. 









Also started doing tris a couple years ago, started off with a few olympics distance races, a few half-ironman distance, and did the full iron distance in 2010 at the Beach 2 Battleship in North Carolina in 12:40 or so (also did Ironman Louisville earlier in the year, but dropped out at mile 7 in the run from dehydration). Bike is my strong point in a tri, running isn't too bad, swimming is my weakness. I haven't done any this year though, spent my time with other things.









I think it really boils down to being a glutton for punishment and suffering.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

Wow, nice times. So you pretty much run a half marathon at a faster pace than every participant in the 5K I did can run 3.2 miles.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

LOL. I figured out what my brothers pace was to just miss a 3:10 marathon. Decided I didn't need to know.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Good going, Andrew!

Dwayne, I`m not up on what`s good for marathon times, but 3:35 sounds awfully fast to me. What are the distances for full, half, and olympic length events? 
Good luck for next week!


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## Dwayne (Jun 3, 2005)

bedwards1000 said:


> Wow, nice times. So you pretty much run a half marathon at a faster pace than every participant in the 5K I did can run 3.2 miles.


My best 5K time was 20:21. I'm too slow to be a serious 5Ker, I don't enjoy the training volume needed for marathons, so the half is my favorite distance.



rodar y rodar said:


> Dwayne, I`m not up on what`s good for marathon times, but 3:35 sounds awfully fast to me. What are the distances for full, half, and olympic length events?
> Good luck for next week!


The 3:35 bummed me out, I was shooting for 3:20 or under. 3:35 works out to an 8:12/mile pace, so not terrible, but not like the 7:01 pace I can hold for a half marathon.

Olympic is a 1.5K / 0.93 mile swim, a 40K / 24.8 mile bike ride, followed by a 10K / 6.2 mile run.
Half iron distance is a 1.93K / 1.2 mile swim, 90K / 56 mile bike, and a 21K / 13.1 mile run. Best I've done there is 5:38 (horrible 46 minute swim, 2:36 bike, and a 2:11 run, not terrible for a 90+ degree day) .
Full distance is a 3.86K / 2.4 mile swim, 180K / 112 mile bike, and a 42K / 26.1 mile run

Thanks, I'll need all the luck I can get!


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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

I only run if I'm being chased.


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## BShow (Jun 15, 2006)

I started as a runner in high school and college. After college I managed a run specialty shop for several years and for part of that time, I was competitive on the local/regional road racing circuit. Once I left the running store I transitioned into the cyclist that I am today. I did a handful of sprint triathlons several years ago but I don't run _at all _anymore. The last time I went for a run, was probably 3 or 4 years ago. I don't enjoy it as much as riding my bike and it's pretty much as simple as that.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

So I'm tapering my running next week to try to be more fasterer on my bike and I decided I wanted to follow the running with an event, to cap this transition.

I did an off-road duathlon yesterday. 5k run on easy trails (though my GPS had it at 3.03 miles, so not sure which measurement is most accurate) and 5.3 mile mountain bike. I got the run done in 23:33, PR for me and also the first time I've run "like I mean it" since 2008. Whole event took me just under an hour, which was good for a pretty good position in the short course group. Of course, most of my cycling peers were doing the long course. But I didn't want to run two 5ks.

I still don't like being in the water. 

I'm sore today. Go figure. My ankles are feeling pretty good, though, which I was a little nervous about.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

Sounds like a fun event. I wish we had some more fun mountain bike oriented races around here. 

I'm planning on a sprint tri this spring. I still don't like the running or the water.

So what's the key to getting faster on the bike? Intervals and rest days probably. I put in quite a few miles last year but seem to be at a plateau.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I'm fastest on my bike when I ride a lot and race a lot. The simplistic answer, for someone who's riding a fair amount already, is that you need to dig deeper and hold out longer from time to time. I find I can only do about three really high-intensity rides, usually intervals, in a week before I start getting overtaken by fatigue. Races are really great workouts, though, and for those of us who aren't as motivated during training rides, I think they're a big part of really getting intensity.

This year, I'm trying to do a structured training plan, from Friel's _The Mountain Biker's Training Bible._ Ask me in a few months how it's working.  I recently also started using more gadgetry (previously just a runner's watch with timing functions only) to train. So I'm learning that some of the cliches about rec. riders, like riding too hard on easy days, apply to me.

Last year, I didn't ride that much during the winter, rode more, including some intervals, in late spring/early summer when classes weren't so crazy, and then ran, raced on the track, and rode a fair amount through the summer. I ended up having a lot of fun and doing okay on the track and had a good endurance MTB race in August, and then my fitness pretty much tanked. I'm becoming more and more of a believer in periodization, and I'm hoping that if I take a more disciplined approach this year, I can be stronger and faster for my main events, and possibly have a non-sucky 'cross season if I decide to do it.

Broadly, I guess the secret is to ride a lot at moderate intensity, mix in some high-intensity rides starting a month or two before the event, rest but without being totally sedentary for the week or so before the event, and then ride it as hard as you can. So basically what you say. The training books and plans have some conflicting attitudes about timing for intervals - some say that they're not useful more than two months out from an event and some suggest substituting them for volume during base. Really has a lot to do with how much time the athlete has to train.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Congrats on the PR, Andrew! For a run on trails with many competitors, do people tend to get bottled up a lot? Sounds tough and makes me think of a peloton riding through blind alleys. Raced on "the track" in the summer- velodrome or running track?


bedwards1000 said:


> I'm planning on a sprint tri this spring. I still don't like the running or the water.
> 
> So what's the key to getting faster on the bike? Intervals and rest days probably. I put in quite a few miles last year but seem to be at a plateau.


You had me fooled 

You already know I have an aversion to training, so about as far from an expert in the matter as possible, but I`ve seen it written many times that if you ride a whole lot of slow miles what you get is really really good at riding slowly. That certainly holds true for me, but for the first time in my life I`m at a point where temptation is creeping in to do something about my dismal speed. Might have to start thinking more along those "training" lines.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

Good stuff. Mountain biking seems good for intervals because sometimes the going just gets hard and you have to push to get up that hill. Thinking back I guess my endurance has increased. When I started riding every day I would be pretty tired by the end of the week and now I do it routinely. 

I would think that the cross training that the running provides would be helpful to help build a base without overdoing your cycling muscles. 

Report back on your progress.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

rodar y rodar said:


> You had me fooled


It's that whole range of ability thing. It always amazes me. Like my signature use to say: "Among my friends I ride like a GOD, when I enter races and ride with my peers I ride like a DOG"

Against literally anybody I know personally, I can ride circles around them. Go longer, faster... If I enter in a race with serious competitors in the slowest class, I end up near the back of the pack. I'm always impressed at how good some people are. Same with mountain biking. A 20" drop is about all I'm comfortable with and then I watch something like Rampage and they are riding down cliffs. It blows my mind.

I know I'm never going to win any races but I do like to be able to surprise people sometimes.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

bedwards1000 said:


> Against literally anybody I know personally, I can ride circles around them. Go longer, faster... If I enter in a race with serious competitors in the slowest class, I end up near the back of the pack. I'm always impressed at how good some people are.


I know EXACTLY what you mean. 
On the flip side, that association perspective does present another option for getting "fast". Much easier than working at it .


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

Want to go for a ride?


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Sure. Take off now and I`ll meet up with you in Omaha.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

rodar y rodar said:


> Congrats on the PR, Andrew! For a run on trails with many competitors, do people tend to get bottled up a lot? Sounds tough and makes me think of a peloton riding through blind alleys. Raced on "the track" in the summer- velodrome or running track?


Thanks! Being able to run healthy crept its way into being a major training goal for me last year, so I'm quite happy with having been able to do some events.

The way that this run was organized, people had time to fan out pretty well before we got onto narrow trails. So I doubt I spent any more than a minute at most running slower than I wanted to.

"Track" was a velodrome. Races are very short, with lots of opportunities to earn points, and there are three of them in an evening. It really freed me to open up the throttle all the way, something I'm always a little averse to doing in longer races, for fear of bonking. I've been transferring a little of that attitude to intermediate-length races, like 'cross and yesterday's event, and I think it's a more successful approach than strategizing had been. Still won't do it for 50 miles, though!

bedwards - mountain bikers turn out to be a lot better at certain things than people accustomed to the idea of structured workouts give us credit for. Major skills that come up a lot in MTB are good pedaling technique, climbing, and burst power - they show up in dealing with loose climbs, in the greater amount of climbing in most mountain biking, and in dealing with short, steep, often technical climbs. It's interesting to look at a track of a mountain bike ride with a heart rate monitor. I find I tend to spend a fair amount of time in zones 1, 4 and 5 - basically riding easy or riding very hard - and blow right through 2 and 3. In other words, where I ride at least, I'm almost always either climbing, pumping rolling singletrack, or recovering. I think that where roadies accustomed to structured workouts are often a lot stronger is in doing longer steady-state efforts, something that's much easier to do on the road and that's a big part of most training plans.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

*Training 101*



bedwards1000 said:


> So what's the key to getting faster on the bike? Intervals and rest days probably. I put in quite a few miles last year but seem to be at a plateau.


Once again, I`m going to intentionally mispost here in Commuting, where I`m comfortable. I know that plenty of "family" has experience in the matter.

Here`s the deal: my definition of training has always been what happens after the conductor calls "all aboard", but I`m hoping to improve my speed for non-race road rides, so now I think it`s time to dip my toe in the training thing and see if I can really keep with some kind of basic plan for long enough to make a difference.

I hear that recovery and rest days are often undervalued by new trainees who don`t have a good grip on how the body works. I take it both (recovery and rest) are important for different reasons and serve different purposes? And cool down is different from recovery? For both cool down and recovery, what kind of cadence recommended? Fast, slow, steady, or mix it up? I take it the important thing for cool down is to ride easy for long enough to let my HR and breathing get back to near resting levels. Is that right?

For the hard-and-heavy riding my vague plan is to ride relatively hard on a 60 mile road loop once per weekend and all out for a 10 mile rural TT loop around my little valley once during the week. Sound reasonable? I guess the weekend long loop would serve me better with some intervals built in, yes? It`s got one steady climb for about five miles and a lot of rollers, so that sort of gives me automatic intervals as long as I`m not lollygagging on the uphills.

As far as the daily riding goes, I`ve been hitting it hard lately on my short commute (about 13 minute avg in summertime conditions), but that really isn`t long enough to get a warm up, a ride, and a cooldown, and I`m not sure if it would interfere with the work/recover/rest pattern. Of course, I could always modify the route to just about any length. Thoughts, suggestions, or comments on any of this appreciated.


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## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Being only barely faster than the spotted salamander, I don't have good advice, but I did read a good review yesterday on Kent's Bike Blog of The Obree Way, it sounds like a really really honest book, down-to-earth and non-techy (retro?) advice on training from the record breaker Graeme Obree. Kent's Bike Blog


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

^^Looks like it isn`t yet available in book form, but I`d love to read it when it`s released. I`m already an admirer of Obree, and his no BS way of thinking is bound to simplify the complicated and confusing. The part that Kent the blogger quoted about marzipan is funny- good cycling food because it doesn`t produce crumbs and you can eat it even when gasping for breath, or something to that effect. English marzipan must be different from the Mexican version (I`ve never seen a yank/****** version) because I like the taste and texture, but it gets crumbs ALL OVER the place and I find that I`m prone to choke on the dust if I don`t eat it very carefully!


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

The flippant answer to "How do I get faster for non-race rides?" is "Just ride your bike faster." The less flippant answer has to do with how much faster.

Do you want to ride more than you do now, or just faster? I know you have some cool bikes, but don't have a great sense of how much riding you're doing.

One of the types of training ride in a lot of structured plans is the "tempo" ride. That refers to a ride with intervals done at the next faster pace from someone's endurance pace. If you're using heart rate zones, it's zone 3. A typical tempo workout would have two intervals done at that pace, 20-60 minutes long (so really long for an interval) and a rest of a few minutes in between. I think those are supposed to be best for getting overall speed to drift up.

The other thing to look at is if there's a specific circumstance that really slows you down relative to your peers. Hills, for example. Work on that, and get a better average.

Usual disclaimers - I don't coach anyone but me, my only qualifications are reading some of the literature and trying some of this stuff, etc.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Thanks, Andrew. I know I really should cough up a few bucks for one of those training books, and I might eventually do just that, but I think I`m trying to keep myself from committing too much. Keeping things as casual as possible, it`ll be less a blow to my ego in the event that I fold up and don`t "go the distance" with the whole training thing. Sound stupid? There`s a reason it sounds that way 

I`ve never heard the term "tempo ride" before, wonder if it`s the same idea that`s sometimes called LSD for long, steady distance. I ought to look into that because "getting overall speed to dift up" is my hope. On the other hand, you mentioned something else that rings with me. I really don`t have any riding peers, ride so rarely with any other peole that I honestly can`t say whether the relative speed difference is more on flats or climbs, but it`s the climby rides that threaten my ability to finish within the allotted time limits. So I guess, if I thought of the clock as my peer, the climbs should be what I concentrate on.

For you personally, do you take both rest days and recovery ride days? Do you pay any attention to your cadence on recovery rides or during the cool down phase of a ride? Assuming you ride them at all, that is.


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## faxe (Dec 14, 2007)

In the winter I do a couple of off rouad run bike run races. First you have to run around 4 miles than 14 miles on the bike and than 2 miles running. Transition from biking to running can be hard.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

rodar y rodar said:


> Thanks, Andrew. I know I really should cough up a few bucks for one of those training books, and I might eventually do just that, but I think I`m trying to keep myself from committing too much. Keeping things as casual as possible, it`ll be less a blow to my ego in the event that I fold up and don`t "go the distance" with the whole training thing. Sound stupid? There`s a reason it sounds that way
> 
> I`ve never heard the term "tempo ride" before, wonder if it`s the same idea that`s sometimes called LSD for long, steady distance. I ought to look into that because "getting overall speed to dift up" is my hope. On the other hand, you mentioned something else that rings with me. I really don`t have any riding peers, ride so rarely with any other peole that I honestly can`t say whether the relative speed difference is more on flats or climbs, but it`s the climby rides that threaten my ability to finish within the allotted time limits. So I guess, if I thought of the clock as my peer, the climbs should be what I concentrate on.
> 
> For you personally, do you take both rest days and recovery ride days? Do you pay any attention to your cadence on recovery rides or during the cool down phase of a ride? Assuming you ride them at all, that is.


Tempo isn't the same as long steady distance. For me, "long steady distance" refers to endurance rides spent at an endurance effort, aka Zone 2, as much as possible. So tempo is the next step up in speed - enough that it's now hard to ride at that effort for more than an hour, but still primarily aerobic. Basically, if your comfort level is Zone 2, tempo is that first step outside. Which should be enough to get the desired result, but not be too brutal to do for sufficient duration, or feel good the next day.

That's not to say that steady rides aren't also important. I started training with a heart rate monitor recently, and found that the same cliche that applies to everyone applies to me - my untargeted rides are all over the place, with some zone 1 sprinkled in. This is supposed to reduce the effectiveness of the ride some, although I think it's probably not that big a deal as long as I'm not lollygagging for several minutes at a time.

There's a big diversity of hills. For me, leveraging a hilly route is all about knowing I get a chance to recover on the way down. So I'll climb pretty hard if I'm trying to ride it fast.

As far as rest days, recovery days, and cool down phases - I don't currently do rest or recovery days, but I ride my bike to school five days a week. So I try to remember that I'm just riding to school, not racing to school. I think that when I'm being "good," those days stand in for recovery days pretty well. Not doing rest days most of the time is probably not a great thing, but since I have more time on the weekend, it's hard to give up those training (and riding for fun!) days, or one of them, for a rest day. I lose a day from time to time, so I tell myself that I'm getting enough fully off-bike days. I do try to plan my routes so that I get a bit of a cool down on the last section. I very rarely watch my cadence actively, but I pedal as close to continuously as terrain permits. So I'd typically be pedaling while I cool down. Honestly, I don't know if it makes me any faster. But it gives a sense of conclusion to the workout and makes the transition to not working out a bit less jarring. So I like to cool down.

I've found the books interesting; time will tell if I'm finding them helpful. I like that buying a training book has given me a resource that has a whole lot of information assembled in a coherent way. I've been able to learn a lot of facts and individual workouts on the 'net, but this isn't a great place to get it assembled into a cohesive whole. If you're an academic type, some of the books also have good bibliographies.

I think there are a few different ways to approach structured training. This year, I was going to go all in and do a periodized training plan - basically hours and workout type targets for every week from the first week of January through to a couple weeks after the end of my season. That has turned out not to be very realistic with the rest of my life...

Another approach, one that I think works better for a more casual cyclist, including me, is to figure out a training week, and try to do that. For example, right now, my theory now is as follows:

Monday: Commuting, catch up on tasks at home.
Tuesday: Commuting, go for a run of about an hour
Wednesday: Commuting, go for a bike ride of about an hour and a half
Thursday: Commuting, go for a bike ride of about an hour
Friday: Commuting only
Saturday: Go for a run of about an hour
Sunday: Go for a bike ride of about two hours.

I've accepted that I'll rarely hit all those goals, but having them on a calendar still helps me get a bit closer. Not making a plan like that, for me, can mean that I don't do much during the week and then go on a monster ride on Sunday, from which I need to recover some, before repeating the same pattern. Which is actually not terrible, but I think that riding more frequently is better for me. I'll re-look at my book and my old schedule on Wednesday, but I think the rides are supposed to be something a bit more specific than long steady distance at this point. I'll try to get some structured workout type rides in there on Wednesday and Thursday; Sunday is for mountain biking. Wednesday too if I'm really on top of school, but it's a big pain to get to trails right now.

I have found that I can get faster at 'cross doing more-or-less the same week every week and incorporating some intensity. So while the effectiveness of this sort of plan vs. more planned periodization is certainly debatable, it does work better than just riding a lot.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Okay, I`m going to try a simple program and see how it goes. The tempo thing sounds good for my purposes, so I`ll keep that in mind for a weekly "long" loop, and ride an all out TT of my 10-ish mile neighborhood loop mid week, with commutes however I feel like. I don`t quite know how the effort zones work, but I think I get the general idea, and since I don`t have a way to measure that anyway, I suppose that "one notch up from neutral" is close enough. I really need to document times somehow in order to see how it`s working, so will come up with a time+conditions sheet for each of the regular rides and be sure to keep the routes uniform from week to week. Will post progress or lack thereof in a month or so.

Andrew, thanks for your words of wisdom here. I appreciate your taking the time to spell it out for me. It sounds like cadence isn`t particularly important for those aspects I was asking about. I`ll dig around a little bit more just for peace of mind, but ain`t going to worry much about the matter.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

How's the training going rodar?

I just ran my second 5K (and third run) of the year and shaved a few minutes of my PR. Finished in 22:41. Better than most, not even close to some. How some people can run that far in under 15 min blows my mind.


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## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Another PR, groovy :thumbsup:
Since you mentioned the run in the daily thread with no details, and your blog had no details, I figured you`d have the down and dirty of it here. Not particularly interresting? Did your wife run it also? Wishing your (both?) a limp-free, shin splint-free week.

Training...
I learned something for sure that I`ve long suspected. Training sucks! I followed my program for four weeks. After week three, I was amazed at how much improvement I saw in the TT part. Then week four had me back to several seconds longer than week one`s "control" ride! My guess in hindsight is that I was probably getting some reasonable improvement in strength, but that my times were more affected by better pacing and by ever warming conditions letting me get away with less parachute wrapped around my body. I tell ya- there`s no way in hell I can sprint for a half hour. Maybe not even world class cardio freaks can do that, I don`t know. But even going as hard as possible for me, a 30 minute spree is torturous. What I felt can`t be accurately described as pain, more like unimmaginable discomfort with a nice mix of nausea thrown in for good measure. I won`t be doing that kind of crap again- Andrew and the rest of the CX gang can keep it! The road loop was actually not bad. By A.S.`s explanation, I think it works out to a 3.5 hour "tempo lite" ride. I got a little tired of the same route every week, but no big deal. Mostly I stopped when the brevet season started up, so I subbed events for training. Then the events ended and I`ve been busy with non-bike stuff. Nw that I have some base line numbers for that route, I`ll probably revisit it from time to time to compare current conditioning.


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## bedwards1000 (May 31, 2011)

I'm not big on training either. 50% of my running is still in races. On the bike I have the base miles covered so some days I just decide to hit the hills hard (intervals) or go for a good overall average speed (tempo, I think). Of just make headway speed (rest). Then there was today. I took the Scott and was trying to beat the rain to work.(incentive) 

My 5K plan on this race was to pick somebody that I knew would be running the time I wanted and I stuck with him.


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