# No DW Link sunday after 2008



## zzsean (Nov 3, 2004)

Interesting news for those that care.

No DW Sunday in 2009 - buy em now if you want them it would seem.


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## _dw (Jan 20, 2004)

I thought that this was old news.. I could have sworn that people were talking about this on this forum right after interbike. 

My moving on from IH was something that it seemed everyone I saw at the show asked me about. I'm sure IH will come up with something good moving forward, I wish them the best of luck.

There will be another dw-link DH bike on the market in 2009, that's about all I can say now though.


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## geolover (Nov 27, 2005)

_dw said:


> There will be another dw-link DH bike on the market in 2009, that's about all I can say now though.


I can't wait....carbon Mojo DH.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

geolover said:


> I can't wait....carbon Mojo DH.


Thousands of people said the same thing about iron horse ever making a dh bike worth a damn before the sunday.

It wouldn't make sense to me for it to come from ibis. I would imagine dave is free to license out to whomever he pleases. Seems there would be better options than ibis. It's not like they have exlusive rights.


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## be350ka (Dec 17, 2004)

Pivot??


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## geolover (Nov 27, 2005)

kidwoo said:


> Thousands of people said the same thing about iron horse ever making a dh bike worth a damn before the sunday.
> 
> It wouldn't make sense to me for it to come from ibis. I would imagine dave is free to license out to whomever he pleases. Seems there would be better options than ibis. It's not like they have exlusive rights.


Sorry, I was trying to make a bad joke about carbon...not Ibis. It could be the first 31lb DH bike...8.5 inches of travel, but pedals like it has 3. 

Half road bike/ half DH bike


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## =ChrisB= (Aug 8, 2006)

geolover said:


> Sorry, I was trying to make a bad joke about carbon...not Ibis. It could be the first 31lb DH bike...8.5 inches of travel, but pedals like it has 3.
> 
> Half road bike/ half DH bike


I'd have sex with that.


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## ebxtreme (Jan 6, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> Thousands of people said the same thing about iron horse ever making a dh bike worth a damn before the sunday.


You dissin' on the SGS Pro? dude, that thing was the shiz....


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

ebxtreme said:


> You dissin' on the SGS Pro? dude, that thing was the shiz....


:skep: :skep: :skep: :skep:


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

=ChrisB= said:


> I'd have sex with that.


Watch out for carbon splinters.

Just got a dvx. Show me how to use it someday.


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## The Tod Says What?! (Jan 20, 2007)

If the Sunday is such a "great bike" then why are they stopping use with DW suspension? Thats the main reason it performs so well right?


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## iridetitus (Sep 16, 2004)

mach 7.5...


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## ebxtreme (Jan 6, 2004)

The Tod Says What?! said:


> If the Sunday is such a "great bike" then why are they stopping use with DW suspension? Thats the main reason it performs so well right?


Dave is saying that he isn't licensing the DW link to Iron Horse after '08. It's not the other way around. I'm sure Iron Horse would happily continue to license that design if Dave wanted to. I'm assuming this will affect their other dw link bikes too......6 point, 7 point, etc.

Dave also licenses the DW Link to IBIS and Pivot (new'ish company started by Chris Cocalis).....so the current speculation is that the DW link will be licensed to one of those companies for a DH offering. Who knows though......it could certainly go to another company.

EB


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## combatkimura (Jul 17, 2007)

LOL wrong thread. whoops~


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

Sounds like Iron Horse is in for dark days again... hopefully they can convince another bike manufacturer to allow them to license yet again another suspension design. HAHAHAHA


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## NWfreeride (Jan 23, 2007)

his dudeness said:


> Sounds like Iron Horse is in for dark days again... hopefully they can convince another bike manufacturer to allow them to license yet again another suspension design. HAHAHAHA


It is not the end of the world... and iron horse isn't the only mainstream manufacturer to license someone else's design throughout their product line. Ever hear of Intense? Yes, the same coveted intense who uses "someone else's" VPP technology.

If anything, dw restricting IH this will perpetuate the evolution of new designs, and the refinement of proven systems.


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## CountryBoy (Oct 24, 2006)

That means a new proto bike for everyone to try and find!


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## Djponee (Dec 20, 2006)

> That means a new proto bike for everyone to try and find!


oooh, sounds like fun.


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## Raptordude (Mar 30, 2004)

Whatever...the Sunday can just float off the face of the earth for all I care.

Now bikes that deserve the splooge that the Sunday gets is finally going to happen.


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## dd13 (Oct 6, 2005)

so i guess we'll see if its sam or the bike!hahaha.besides just the sunday,IH's whole line uses dw link so itll be really interesting to see what changes are made across the board.


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## RideFaster (Dec 18, 2004)

dd13 said:


> so i guess we'll see if its sam or the bike!


It'll be interesting to see how he does on another bike (another IH or other brand.)


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## Gripo (May 2, 2005)

*people forget*

Umm, Ironhorse were already winners before the DW-link love....

Didn't Rennie win a big world title in 2003 riding a showroom Ironhorse something or rather......and didn't Sam Hill also do well in juniors on the same bike as Rennie that year....


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## tscheezy (Dec 19, 2003)

_dw said:


> I thought that this was old news...


You mean it might be _*new*_ news on the IH board?


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## Gauss (Dec 14, 2006)

Maybe Pivot... maybe other, later appears with better quality bikes, with pivots that doesn't creek and with better overall designs. Maybe is the chance for someone to make a better quality bike with dw-link later


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## mrpercussive (Apr 4, 2006)

When it comes to the world championships a lot of it still is the rider... IH still has Fairclough and Sam Hill... they'll shred even if the wheels were square... XD


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## Freerydejunky (Sep 21, 2006)

I just cried... 
Dave, your DW* design better be put on a reasonably priced FR rig or Im screwed.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

Nathan Rennie rode the SGS to the podium then IH picked up the DW link. IH has the funds to pay a top rider to help keep them there with the likes of Sam Hill. Personally I feel SH will be faster on something other than a DW link.


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## Freerydejunky (Sep 21, 2006)

dogonfr said:


> Nathan Rennie rode the SGS to the podium then IH picked up the DW link. IH has the funds to pay a top rider to help keep them there with the likes of Sam Hill. Personally I feel SH will be faster on something other than a DW link.


They could ride Pixi BMX bikes and beat us down the mountain every time. 
To say that they rode a bike and thats what made them fast is ridiculous.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

motormonkeyr6 said:


> They could ride Pixi BMX bikes and beat us down the mountain every time.
> To say that they rode a bike and thats what made them fast is ridiculous.


Your not reading correct. Nathan launched IH to the podium & beyond.

SH is keeping them there but if he rode a Pixi they would still be there.

Greg & Steve-Honda & Orange. :thumbsup:


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## MREDROCK (Oct 25, 2006)

Dont get me wrong, I ride IH, but Sam is just FAST!!! regardless of what he rides he IS the best rider in the world today. (flaming to follow) As for the future of IH in downhill can you say 8'' single pivot. Bring back the Kumicho!!!


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## _dw (Jan 20, 2004)

dogonfr said:


> Nathan Rennie rode the SGS to the podium then IH picked up the DW link. IH has the funds to pay a top rider to help keep them there with the likes of Sam Hill. Personally I feel SH will be faster on something other than a DW link.


Actually, I developed the suspenson kinematics and bike geometry of the 2003 and 2004 SGS after I had partnered with Iron Horse in 2002 to develop dw-link bikes for production. I worked on the Sunday design during the 2003 and 2004 seasons.

Sam will ride a dw-link in 2008 becuase he feels that the bike is an advantage for him.

Just to set the record straight..


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

booooo hooo


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## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

_dw said:


> Sam will ride a dw-link in 2008 becuase he feels that the bike is an advantage for him.


isn't 2009 the question here?
how long is hill's contract with IH/Monster?


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

[QUOTE='size]isn't 2009 the question here?
how long is hill's contract with IH/Monster?[/QUOTE]

No, 2006 he was riding a 2007 Sunday, on 2007 he was riding a 2008 Sunday, so this 2008 he should be riding a 2009 Sunday...

Now everyone with a 2008 Sunday will have the same bike as Sam Hill


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## mrpercussive (Apr 4, 2006)

tacubaya said:


> No, 2006 he was riding a 2007 Sunday, on 2007 he was riding a 2008 Sunday, so this 2008 he should be riding a 2009 Sunday...
> 
> Now everyone with a 2008 Sunday will have the same bike as Sam Hill


actually team racers are spoilt with toys which joe average will never see... even if the frame looks the same, there are differences like butting in certain places, lightened in certain places, etc... Just look at the SRAM... the real BlackBox stuff for the team riders are TOTALLY different from what we get...


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

Question is who is leaving who, DW saying by to IH or IH saying by to DW? Is it personal or buisness parting of ways?


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## _dw (Jan 20, 2004)

dogonfr said:


> Question is who is leaving who, DW saying by to IH or IH saying by to DW? Is it personal or buisness parting of ways?


As I think I've stated pretty clearly, this was my decision to move on, and a very tough decision at that. I still remain friends with Stew Barnett the owner of WWCS, and have many friends in the company still. We built somehting special together, and you just don't forget that. The timing was right for me to move on and dw-link was part of that move for me. I wish Iron Horse and all of my friends at Iron Horse the best of luck moving forward.

Dave


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## dhtahoe (Mar 18, 2004)

NWfreeride said:


> Ever hear of Intense? Yes, the same coveted intense who uses "someone else's" VPP technology.


Santa Cruz and Intense both invested in the Outland patent buyout. The VPP today is nothing like the old outland design. They have also gone different directions slightly with the design.


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

Sam Hill needs his eyebrows cleaned more than he needs a DW bike. 
DW is Sam Hill's daddy, really he is. DNA says so:thumbsup:


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

what about the split pivot...are you taking that with you too dw, or will that remain with IH?

are we gonna see an IH bike that looks like the new session 8 (aka a stab with a split pivot)?


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

I'm actually quite surprised that IH got into an arrangement where a single person could pull the plug on pretty much their entire full suspension product line... very short sighted on their part...


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

essenmeinstuff said:


> I'm actually quite surprised that IH got into an arrangement where a single person could pull the plug on pretty much their entire full suspension product line... very short sighted on their part...


Go to the IH board and read the DW 2009 thread, Dave Weagle let IH know about the end of contract a long time ago, and Iron Horse took all appropriate measures to ensure great bikes in the 2009 line.


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## konut (Mar 25, 2006)

wonder if iron horse go to vpp.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

tacubaya said:


> Go to the IH board and read the DW 2009 thread, Dave Weagle let IH know about the end of contract a long time ago, and Iron Horse took all appropriate measures to ensure great bikes in the 2009 line.


I guess the point I'm surprised about is the fact that a product was developed by both parties together, which I can only assume that IH paid some cash for, and now IH can't use the fruits of that development? Doesn't sound very smart...

But hey, if thats the agreement they had then whatever, as a contractor myself, that wouldn't fly if I tried that lol


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

konut said:


> wonder if iron horse go to vpp.


SP would be a excellent route but consumers want multiple linkages, pivots, struts & bearings the more complex looking the better the suspension works. :cornut:


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## ebxtreme (Jan 6, 2004)

essenmeinstuff said:


> I guess the point I'm surprised about is the fact that a product was developed by both parties together, which I can only assume that IH paid some cash for, and now IH can't use the fruits of that development? Doesn't sound very smart...


I hear ya.....but I believe that DW developed the design and owns the patent. He merely licensed it to Iron Horse first. IH didn't have any exclusive rights to it.......otherwise, I'm sure they wouldn't have allowed him to license it to Pivot or Ibis over the last couple of years. It does seem very shortsighted of Iron Horse not to lock up the design with some level of exclusivity and a longer term contract, but I'm guessing they had no idea how well it would be received.



dogonfr said:


> SP would be a excellent route but consumers want multiple linkages, pivots, struts & bearings the more complex looking the better the suspension works.


Unless I'm mistaken, IH has had a single pivot bike for many years (Yakuza). If it performed better overall, I suspect they would've used that bike for their race teams, no? :cornut:

Sure, a bunch of World Cup wins have come on a single pivot frame and any top racer can win on any frame/design and part of what they (racers) do is help sell bikes for a mfgr. However, I've got to believe that, given the choice, those same racers would also prefer to ride a frame that gives them the best chance for a victory. Would Sam and Sabrina win the world cup overall on the Yakuza? Hard to say.


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## konut (Mar 25, 2006)

i will stick with faux bar,until some american corp patents it,although the brooklyn machine works looks sweet.

why the move though,has dw had a bigger offer elsewhere,could of maybe helped them out in another way,like by given them a design.

but its the price you pay for using somebodys ideas.


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## essenmeinstuff (Sep 4, 2007)

konut said:


> i will stick with faux bar,until some american corp patents it,


In theory you can't patent something that is already public domain... but the USPTO has done crazier things... like the fart powered space rocket patent...


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## konut (Mar 25, 2006)

^^^ ha ha seen that thats why nothing surprises me,american corps i wouldnt put anything past em so long as they can make a buck.

if anything this is gonna hurt ironhorse sales.

just a thought about patents,didnt sram patent the tri align,which is basically the same principal used on cnatilever brakes,which is curved washers,just in a slightly different application.


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## geolover (Nov 27, 2005)

> originally posted by *_dw* (from the IH forum)
> 
> Although they perform differently, there are similarities. In my opinion, aspects of the Maestro bikes fall under the dw-lnk patents. *Giant has been more than accomodating in ongoing discussions, I am hopeful that a resolution will be met.*


Maybe Giant will be the new DW Link bikes.


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## his dudeness (May 9, 2007)

geolover said:


> Maybe Giant will be the new DW Link bikes.


Now why would Giant go and do something dumb like that? Maestro works so much better.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

The die hard IH supporters will jump ship for Giant now :lol::lol:


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

his dudeness said:


> Now why would Giant go and do something dumb like that? Maestro works so much better.


:lol: :lol: ut: :lol: ut: :lol: ut: ut: :lol: 
And I am sure you have charts, diagrams and the technical aptitude to back this up right?
Not some lame story about how your Maestro bike rides way better than your buddies DW becasue you said so.

I own a Maestro and not a DW but I think the DW has a few tweaks that make it a tad better. I also believe that any suspension design that goes into such great detail to expalin it's benifits like DW.com does has to be a better design.
All Giant talks about is harmony?rft:

I just ride what is a good value for my dollar, Giants are a good value for my dollar becuase I am the ex-manager of a giant dealer.


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## Gauss (Dec 14, 2006)

dogonfr said:


> the more complex looking the better the suspension works. :cornut:


Or that's what we consumers believe! xD


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

boogenman said:


> I just ride what is a good value for my dollar, Giants are a good value for my dollar becuase I am the ex-manager of a giant dealer.


DW say's he is still in discussion with Giant. He claims the Maestro that Giant markets is another form of the DW link that he has a patent on. In the end it may come down to who has the better attorney's alla Specialized. :crazy:


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## tremor (Oct 19, 2008)

sorry for digging, just saw this thread but apparently 2009 Ih still has dw.link. What gives? http://www.ironhorsebikes.com/bikes/sunday09/


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Patent ends in February 2009 or so, so they could make the 2009 batch on time. 2010 Sunday is ICT and still will be called Sunday.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

NWfreeride said:


> It is not the end of the world... and iron horse isn't the only mainstream manufacturer to license someone else's design throughout their product line. *Ever hear of Intense? Yes, the same coveted intense who uses "someone else's" VPP technology. *
> If anything, dw restricting IH this will perpetuate the evolution of new designs, and the refinement of proven systems.


santa cruz and Intense bought the patent


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## huntandride (Sep 29, 2007)

The new sundays are sick. I went to the site about 3 days and saw them. Its cool that someone is bringing it up on mtbr.


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## Freerydejunky (Sep 21, 2006)

tremor said:


> sorry for digging, just saw this thread but apparently 2009 Ih still has dw.link. What gives? http://www.ironhorsebikes.com/bikes/sunday09/


IH produced the 09 frames like mad all this past year. 
(As long as they produced them before their contract expired they can sell them on the open market)


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## scorpionsf (Nov 16, 2006)

so the red sunday decked out in saint looks absolutely dirty, single crown, looks awfully FR to me


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## juan pablo (Jan 17, 2007)

I dont ride DH rigs but the new sundays are looking good. I like the straight lines where everyone is switching to curves. But no 7 point? I was thinking of a seven point but no longer eh.


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## Nick_M2R (Oct 18, 2008)

hmmm.... doesnt bother me, i rode a glory and a iron horse, and i must say that the Maestro system works better than the DW link


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## tremor (Oct 19, 2008)

wow so many conflicting reports. After I posted this, I did a search and someone mentioned that the license is valid till 2010.

Hmm. Anyhus, I already got an IH DWlink, so no worries there.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Dave Weagle said it.... it expires the first quarter of 2009.


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## dogonfr (Jan 6, 2005)

tremor said:


> wow so many conflicting reports. After I posted this, I did a search and someone mentioned that the license is valid till 2010.
> 
> Hmm. Anyhus, I already got an IH DWlink, so no worries there.


This might help ya. :thumbsup:



_dw said:


> IH totally has the right to build bikes and sell them through 3-31-09. I think I've made that pretty clear in the past. The 3/31 date was originally intended to give IH a little breathing room for selling through 2008 stock etc.., but it's all good with me either way. If they want to update spec and graphics and sell some '09 bikes, that's in their power for sure. IH is a class act and I have no doubt that they intend to do the best things that they can for their business.
> 
> Dave


http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=376490


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## spxoo (Apr 26, 2007)

This all came about the same time IH started saying theryre pulling all there bikes from LBS and only selling them through like EMS and randall scott. 

I dont know what came first, but if it was my bike (I owned the patent) and the contract was ending shortly after they annonuced that I would go elsewhere too.

could be way off, IH prolly never sold that many bikes through bike shops anyways.


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