# rich people passion



## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

for some reason, i found the fact that this very expensive vehicle had a rack strapped on kind of amusing:


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Well how else do you get bikes to where you need to get them if you drive a Bentley?


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## shwinn8 (Feb 25, 2006)

yeah, because that's what all of us cash strapped people what to see... BUT somewhere i saw 2 Ferrari's with racks on them


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

kjlued said:


> Well how else do you get bikes to where you need to get them if you drive a Bentley?


you hire somebody to haul them for you...or buy a honda. if you own a bentley, you likely have that kind of money...


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

shekky said:


> you hire somebody to haul them for you...or buy a honda. if you own a bentley, you likely have that kind of money...


Maybe they spent all their money on that car.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

shekky said:


> you hire somebody to haul them for you...or buy a honda. if you own a bentley, you likely have that kind of money...


So one day I'm at a major trailhead in SoCal with a fellow MTBR member and we're waiting for a couple folks to show up. As we are waiting, a Bentley coupe pulls up and parks next to me. A middle aged man who was CLEARLY not in what would be described as "prime physical shape" gets out of the car, wearing a full shop kit (i.e., lycra shorts, jersey, etc. - it was not pretty) and walks to the back of the car, pulls his shoes out of the trunk and just waits. My buddy and I exchange glances and are like WTF? Where's this dude's bike?

A few moments later, another car pulls up, a man in a suit gets out, opens the trunk and pulls out a CF Niner (top of the line rig), hands it to Bentley man, says he'll be back in a couple hours and takes off.

Not kidding.


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## Scott In MD (Sep 28, 2008)

2 years ago I was loading up after a ride in the fabulous Frederick MD watershed. A giant custom touring van , like the kind that National Car Renal uses to shuttle people to and from the airport to the rental lot, pulls up to the Yellow Trail trail head on Gambrill Park road. Inside was all custom decked out with flat screen high def, window tint, microbrew mini-keg tap, leather and stainless, the whole enchilada. On back was a trailer, inside trailer over a half dozen premium trail bikes, several brands. All carbon. Four Asian dudes maybe 25 y/o in the van, one guy says , "Our buddy is rich and so we just drive around the USA from Cali to Maine riding all the great stuff we can. We move east and north through the Summer after riding all Winter and Spring and in Arizona, Utah, and Colorado. " 

Serious. They were pretty good riders, too.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

I think I'm missing passion in this thread... unless it's a passion for attempting to look down your nose at other people because of their success and their choices. 

I would say if someone's strapping a bike rack to their Bentley, they have passion. Why else would they risk scratching up that expensive car to put that bike rack on there?

And who's to say the guy in the Bentley with the full kit but, contrary to what must be your impeccable physical shape, is not in "what would be described as 'prime physical shape'" didn't find himself with some free time from work and called his executive/personal assistant to bring his bike over to the trail so he could grab a ride before going back to work? At least he's riding a mountain bike and not spending his money to close trails to us, right?

And, wouldn't you feel like a complete ass if you ran into him again and he just rode away from you on the trails??


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

skiahh said:


> I think I'm missing passion in this thread... unless it's a passion for attempting to look down your nose at other people because of their success and their choices.
> 
> I would say if someone's strapping a bike rack to their Bentley, they have passion. Why else would they risk scratching up that expensive car to put that bike rack on there?
> 
> ...


You're quick to make assumptions I see . . . how's that working out for you?


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

OO7 said:


> So one day I'm at a major trailhead in SoCal with a fellow MTBR member and we're waiting for a couple folks to show up. As we are waiting, a Bentley coupe pulls up and parks next to me. A middle aged man who was CLEARLY not in what would be described as "prime physical shape" gets out of the car, wearing a full shop kit (i.e., lycra shorts, jersey, etc. - it was not pretty) and walks to the back of the car, pulls his shoes out of the trunk and just waits. My buddy and I exchange glances and are like WTF? Where's this dude's bike?
> 
> A few moments later, another car pulls up, a man in a suit gets out, opens the trunk and pulls out a CF Niner (top of the line rig), hands it to Bentley man, says he'll be back in a couple hours and takes off.
> 
> Not kidding.


So one day I pulled up to a major trail head in So Cal in my new Bentley coupe. I got out, went to the trunk and pulled out my shoes. I saw these two guys just looking at me. I thought WTF, aren't people with Bentleys allowed to ride mountain bikes? A couple minutes later my butler pulled up with my new Niner, and I was off for a good two hour ride. The whole ride I was thinking, these poor saps have to haul their own bikes! Oh BTW, I was wearing baggies and I looked in better shape then both of the guys looking at me. I think I saw them on the other side of their car holding hands.

Not kidding.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Any self respecting MTBers bike costs more than their car, I want to see what cost more than the Bentley.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

I see this kind of stuff frequently. 

We are a few guys who have a company together. Some of the other guys does this sort of thing from time to time. 
The story behind is that they often just have a bit of free time, and choose to do whatever hobby they have. 
I spare no chance to make fun of them, but to be honest, at least they do something, which is a big plus.

To them I'm the village idiot that don't have a car, makes things myself, and so forth.

All in good jest.


Magura


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Any self respecting MTBers bike costs more than their car, I want to see what cost more than the Bentley.


I couldn't find one more expensive.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Any self respecting MTBers bike costs more than their car,
> 
> I try to explain this at every opportunity
> 
> Magura


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## 11 Bravo (Mar 12, 2004)

I think the only thing amusing about it is the kind of rack. I guess I never thought about it, but I figured for enough money you could get a rack that didn't strap on to the trunk.

Doesn't anybody make a receiver hitch that fits a Bentley? No? Really?

Does Saris show Bentley's in their application listings?

I wonder what kind of bike he hauls on it? Probably a lower end Trek. I heard that those racks can scratch your frame. Wouldn't want to scratch a nice bike.




Seriously though, cool that they have enough passion for the bike that they strap on to a nice car like that.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

11 Bravo said:


> Doesn't anybody make a receiver hitch that fits a Bentley? No? Really?
> .


Plenty of people have receivers fabricated for their cars/trucks. I was close to buying a 370Z and uhaul was going to fabricate and build me one for free, so they could fit them to others that wanted em. If you can afford a bently, you can afford to have one fabricated.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Well, for fuks sake, has anyone ever seen the trunk on these things?

I mean seriously, if I can fit my 29er in the trunk of my little car, they certainly can fit their bike in the trunk of that thing. 


Hell, for that matter if you put a ramp on it, I could park my car in the trunk of that thing. :lol:


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

I've never seen a Bentley from the inside, but the Kleemann E55 (based on a Mercedes E55) we used to test composite brakes, had a trunk big enough for easily throwing a bike in. 

I assume the Bentley is not far from that.


Magura


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## roadie scum (Jan 21, 2011)

Krapao Gai said:


> This is simply the retarded pap that economically challenged riders propagate to make themselves feel better about the socio-economic condition that they find themselves trapped in.
> 
> Thanks for playing!


Speaking of retarded, jump to conclusions much?


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Krapao Gai said:


> This is simply the retarded pap that economically challenged riders propagate to make themselves feel better about the socio-economic condition that they find themselves trapped in.
> 
> Thanks for playing!


Uhm, wow. Glad you think that you know so much about my economic state. Moron much? Sarcasm escapes you, I must remember to use smilies so that the slow ones like yourself can get it too. Bombs away.


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## Lance Strongarm (Oct 10, 2012)

Sock puppet. Trust me, I know about sock puppets.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

OO7 said:


> You're quick to make assumptions I see . . . how's that working out for you?


Not so good... I don't see any assumptions I made, just questions I asked. Well, OK, based on your comment about his physical shape, I did assume that you had the right to make that comment because of your superior physical condition.

Was I wrong?

Were you perhaps comparing his shape to yours, then?


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## BobbyWilliams (Aug 3, 2004)

Whatever vehicle you've got, you find a way to strap a bike to it!

Ok, two more.


















How about a car being carried on a bike?


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Krapao Gai said:


> Your posting history proceeds you dimwit.
> 
> Try again?


A hole 5 posts, 0 rep and name calling. Not a great way to start!

Oh, I forgot, no sense of humor.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

Amazing how something as simple as a bike rack on a car can result in members bickering and name calling.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

This stuff is too funny!! I love the pic of the rider on the bike on top of the car. Classic. Hope he has his strava running!!


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## Olasher (Apr 30, 2012)

I used to drive my Bentley to the trailhead, but now.......


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

You guys are doing it all wrong.

It isn't how you get the bikes to the trail, it is how many you can get there at one time.

Now this guy has passion!


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

So let me see if I understand the passion here...

Ostentatious = Rich?

I know a lot of rich people who drive crappy cars and a few in debt idiots who drive expensive ones.


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## shibiwan (Sep 2, 2012)

Mr.Magura said:


> To them I'm the village idiot that don't have a car, makes things myself, and so forth.
> 
> All in good jest.
> 
> Magura


Heh... I should say that more often too. 

-S


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## shibiwan (Sep 2, 2012)

lidarman said:


> I know a lot of rich people who drive crappy cars and a few in debt idiots who drive expensive ones.


Same here.... I guess all of this boils down to priorities. Some people have it wrong, others have it right, and everyone else falls somewhere in between.

-S


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## Olasher (Apr 30, 2012)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Any self respecting MTBers bike costs more than their car, I want to see what cost more than the Bentley.


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## hitek79 (Oct 24, 2008)

I've ridden with poor guys that smoked me, and rich guys that smoked me. Moral of the story, I'm slow.


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## hardtailkid (Jan 25, 2010)

Wow, this has to be a new low. Guys on an internet forum bashing a successful individual who just happens to mountain bike (which is why you all are here, let's remember). You must be really mad at something.


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## roadie scum (Jan 21, 2011)

hardtailkid said:


> Wow, this has to be a new low. Guys on an internet forum bashing a successful individual who just happens to mountain bike (which is why you all are here, let's remember). You must be really mad at something.


No one is bashing the rich guy, you should read the thread and then come back and appologize.


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

11 Bravo said:


> I think the only thing amusing about it is the kind of rack. I guess I never thought about it, but I figured for enough money you could get a rack that didn't strap on to the trunk.
> 
> Doesn't anybody make a receiver hitch that fits a Bentley? No? Really?
> 
> ...





Jayem said:


> Plenty of people have receivers fabricated for their cars/trucks. I was close to buying a 370Z and uhaul was going to fabricate and build me one for free, so they could fit them to others that wanted em. If you can afford a bently, you can afford to have one fabricated.


Yeah, but a receiver is always on there. I wouldn't want a dumb receiver on my Bentley, especially if I only carried a bike every so often. Same goes for a roof system. That's the beauty of a trunk rack. You can put it on and take it off in just a minute or so. Especially that particular model. Regardless of what kind of car a person has, if they carry a bike infrequently, a trunk rack make sense.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

skiahh said:


> I think I'm missing passion in this thread... unless it's a passion for attempting to look down your nose at other people because of their success and their choices.
> 
> I would say if someone's strapping a bike rack to their Bentley, they have passion. Why else would they risk scratching up that expensive car to put that bike rack on there?
> 
> ...


you miss the whole point. chill out and have a sense of humor...


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## shibiwan (Sep 2, 2012)

Look closely - the bike is a rendering and isn't real. It's just overlaid (well) on to an existing photo background.

Besides, the designer/engineer needs to be slapped for flipping the front shocks (and let the stanchions get nicked by rocks. Also notice that there is no bridge between both stanchions on the fork so expect the front axle to snap the moment you hit the first pebble on the road.

So much for vaporware. At least make it credible.....



Olasher said:


>


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## Tone's (Nov 12, 2011)

Krapao Gai said:


> So much is wrong with your simplistic response.
> 
> It is refreshing to see that you have yet to shed that mantle of cluelesness that you defines your life.
> 
> p.s your hypocrisy "ahole 5 posts" earned you extra credit points on the hypocrite scale.


LOL, always a muppet in every group..
Some evolve into a muppet, but some like krapao here put their hand up right from the start and want to let the whole world know from the first time they open their mouth that they are indeed an Agrade pure bred muppet......:thumbsup:


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Tone's said:


> LOL, always a muppet in every group..
> Some evolve into a muppet, but some like krapao here put their hand up right from the start and want to let the whole world know from the first time they open their mouth that they are indeed an Agrade pure bred muppet......:thumbsup:


priceless...:thumbsup:


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## 11 Bravo (Mar 12, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Plenty of people have receivers fabricated for their cars/trucks. I was close to buying a 370Z and uhaul was going to fabricate and build me one for free, so they could fit them to others that wanted em. If you can afford a bently, you can afford to have one fabricated.


I think you may have missed my attempt at some sarcasm.:thumbsup:


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## Tone's (Nov 12, 2011)

Krapao Gai said:


> ...and there's some more nonsense from down under.
> 
> At least you are consistently a blathering tool rather than an inconsistency blathering tool.
> 
> (cue rambling semi-intelligible response from the non-riding poser)


Crapao, i could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and s**t out better ''semi-intelligible' come backs and post than you, so im just gonna sit back and let your words do all the talkin champion, :thumbsup:


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## Olasher (Apr 30, 2012)

shibiwan said:


> Look closely - the bike is a rendering and isn't real. It's just overlaid (well) on to an existing photo background.
> 
> Besides, the designer/engineer needs to be slapped for flipping the front shocks (and let the stanchions get nicked by rocks. Also notice that there is no bridge between both stanchions on the fork so expect the front axle to snap the moment you hit the first pebble on the road.
> 
> So much for vaporware. At least make it credible.....


No, I think it is legit.....


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## 11 Bravo (Mar 12, 2004)

Deep Thought said:


> Yeah, but a receiver is always on there. I wouldn't want a dumb receiver on my Bentley, especially if I only carried a bike every so often. Same goes for a roof system. That's the beauty of a trunk rack. You can put it on and take it off in just a minute or so. Especially that particular model. Regardless of what kind of car a person has, if they carry a bike infrequently, a trunk rack make sense.


I need to do a better job at posting. I didn't mean to be taken seriously, I was just trying to inject a little humor. Hence the smiley and the last line starting with "seriously".

Your points are correct. But you have to admit, it is unusual to see a very high end car with a strap-on trunk rack.

It's all good.:thumbsup:


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## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

lol, you have a way with words, Tones. Love the alphabet soup thingy...:thumbsup:


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## Tone's (Nov 12, 2011)

Krapao Gai said:


> As expected.
> 
> Just another fluffer. No substance, just insecure poser whining.
> 
> Your lameass is quite predictable!


BOOM, the lure thrown out and Crapao's in the bottom of the boat gaspin for air again, champion, you must be talkin bout your 13 posts there, just pop back and read your last 13 posts, they define what you have just written above, and by the way, congrats on the MTBR record, cheers tiger.....:thumbsup:


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## LostBoyScout (Feb 7, 2008)

I'm choosing to ignore Krapao as he is obviously a troll by the nonsense posts. 

I would never drive a car like that no matter how much money I had, but I do find it a little bit relieving when someone who spends like that can still appreciate bikes. Or more likely... his kid rides bikes. But I'll try to stay optimistic.


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## ehigh (Apr 19, 2011)

What the **** the last dozen or more posts are garbage 

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2


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## trodaq (Jun 11, 2011)

Isnt that Audi bike the one with an electric motor? Saw a video of a bike similar to that doing holeshots.
JULIEN DUPONT Rides Crazy E-Bike In Bavaria - YouTube


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## Hutch3637 (Jul 1, 2011)




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## Scott In MD (Sep 28, 2008)

In the future!, if asked, I'll stare straight into the camera with both eyes and state " I have no recollection of participating in that thread". 

There is enough lameness to go around on this one....


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Krapao Gai said:


> This is simply the retarded pap that economically challenged riders propagate to make themselves feel better about the socio-economic condition that they find themselves trapped in.
> 
> Thanks for playing!





Krapao Gai said:


> Your posting history proceeds you dimwit.
> 
> Try again?





Krapao Gai said:


> So much is wrong with your simplistic response.
> 
> It is refreshing to see that you have yet to shed that mantle of cluelesness that you defines your life.
> 
> p.s your hypocrisy "ahole 5 posts" earned you extra credit points on the hypocrite scale.





Krapao Gai said:


> ...and there's some more nonsense from down under.
> 
> At least you are consistently a blathering tool rather than an inconsistency blathering tool.
> 
> (cue rambling semi-intelligible response from the non-riding poser)





Krapao Gai said:


> As expected.
> 
> Just another fluffer. No substance, just insecure poser whining.
> 
> Your lameass is quite predictable!





Krapao Gai said:


> Good grief, you are so incredibly clueless so silly newbie.
> 
> Please, carry on if that brings you some kind of false comfort.
> 
> ...





Krapao Gai said:


> Once you start making an adult salary your perspective will change. If you can shrug off the shackles of ignorance that you labor under.
> 
> Until then, it's understandable that you can't imagine driving a "car like that" when you spend all day long flipping burgers for your betters.


Have you read the posting rules at MTBR.com?


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## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Krapao Gai said:


> Have you, hypocrite?
> 
> Why does the truth make you uncomfortable?


You have 15 posts here at MTBR.com. They all contain inflammatory comments, profanity or name calling.


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## Tone's (Nov 12, 2011)

^^^^^ quack quack.......


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Krapao Gai said:


> You are a hypocrite. You are also incredibly clueless.
> 
> I have many, many more posts than the 15 that you point out.
> 
> ...


16 posts now, more name calling, inflammatory comments or profanity.


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## roadie scum (Jan 21, 2011)

Where is Lance? How about some sock on sock combat? My money is on Lance.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)




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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Krapao Gai said:


> As expected.
> 
> Just another fluffer. No substance, just insecure poser whining.
> 
> Your lameass is quite predictable!


Gotta at least give the guy credit for going down swinging!


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

Krapao Gai said:


> More whiny cluelessness.
> 
> Time to find some fat guy to snuggle with so you feel better about your lame self?
> 
> ...


tsk tsk Pete...

go back to trollololing Randy and Todd....

ya goof

:lol:


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

Wow, Krapao - what a way to start making enemies. 
Imagine that DC's "How to win friends & influence people" has eluded you.
Our next red chiclet king?
Who here really cares about driving a $375k sedan? Certainly not I, and I really hope he doesn't park it next to my old Honda. 
Better to park it next to Nic on a Friday night shyte-storm ride sesh & get his $$ tailpipe pee injected.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Nothing to see here, please move along.


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## Kanik (Sep 28, 2011)

Can somebody please ban this Crapo Guy again so he stops ****ing up the thread?

Edit: hah, that was quick


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Posts all cleaned up now. MTBR rules!


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## rockminer (Jan 6, 2007)

Bye krapao!!!! You're such a loser!!


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Fagerlin is just butt hurt because this thread wasn't about him and his pos 997.


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## baker (Jan 6, 2004)

shibiwan said:


> Besides, the designer/engineer needs to be slapped for flipping the front shocks (and let the stanchions get nicked by rocks. Also notice that there is no bridge between both stanchions on the fork so expect the front axle to snap the moment you hit the first pebble on the road.
> 
> So much for vaporware. At least make it credible.....


Looks a lot like a Maverick SC32. Certainly not the best fork I've ever owned, but the front axle didn't "snap" the moment I "hit the first pebble on the road."

Maverick SC32 29er Forks Reviews


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## shibiwan (Sep 2, 2012)

baker said:


> Looks a lot like a Maverick SC32. Certainly not the best fork I've ever owned, but the front axle didn't "snap" the moment I "hit the first pebble on the road."
> 
> Maverick SC32 29er Forks Reviews


I stand corrected. :thumbsup: 

(checked it out - man that's a big custom axle on that thing)

-S


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## Tone's (Nov 12, 2011)

BBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO who banned crapola, he was entertaining , why do all the entertaining guys get banned  i was havin fun with this thread....
BRING BACK CRAPOLA


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

shibiwan said:


> Look closely - the bike is a rendering and isn't real. It's just overlaid (well) on to an existing photo background.
> 
> Besides, the designer/engineer needs to be slapped for flipping the front shocks (and let the stanchions get nicked by rocks. Also notice that there is no bridge between both stanchions on the fork so expect the front axle to snap the moment you hit the first pebble on the road.
> 
> So much for vaporware. At least make it credible.....


hey! it has platforms...


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## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

Kanik said:


> Can somebody please ban this Crapo Guy again so he stops ****ing up the thread?


"****ing up the thread?"

Actually, he is like salt, garlic and bacon on overcooked potatoes.

Ban Ban Ban him.....we need to save this precious thread!


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

11 Bravo said:


> I need to do a better job at posting. I didn't mean to be taken seriously, I was just trying to inject a little humor. Hence the smiley and the last line starting with "seriously".
> 
> Your points are correct. But you have to admit, it is unusual to see a very high end car with a strap-on trunk rack.
> 
> It's all good.:thumbsup:


Haha. I guess if I had that much money, I'd buy a cool old truck or some other vehicle to carry my bike.


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

This thread has some pretty cool pictures in it. I absolutely love cars but the helicopter is pretty darn cool.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

lidarman said:


> "****ing up the thread?"
> 
> Actually, he is like salt, garlic and bacon on overcooked potatoes.
> 
> Ban Ban Ban him.....we need to save this precious thread!


He'll be back, he always comes back.


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## Hang 21 (Dec 23, 2007)

Tone's said:


> Crapao, i could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and s**t out better ''semi-intelligible' come backs and post than you :thumbsup:


Tones, remind me to never _ever_ play Scrabble with you.


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## singlesprocket (Jun 9, 2004)

rather get this frame... to build up.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)




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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

shibiwan said:


> Besides, the designer/engineer needs to be slapped for flipping the front shocks (and let the stanchions get nicked by rocks. Also notice that there is no bridge between both stanchions on the fork so expect the front axle to snap the moment you hit the first pebble on the road.


haven't upside-down forks been SOP for high end motorcycles for decades? even off-road ones?


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

SV11 said:


> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


He's going to melt his tires and rims with the Lambo's exhaust...


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Bill in Houston said:


> He's going to melt his tires and rims with the Lambo's exhaust...


It won't run long enough to get that hot.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

kjlued said:


> Maybe they spent all their money on that car.


And can't afford bikes (it's empty)

Man, the cost of bikes is too damn high - even for rich people apparently


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Bill in Houston said:


> haven't upside-down forks been SOP for high end motorcycles for decades? even off-road ones?


For different reasons.

For the off-road ones, it's because they have more than 12" of travel, the only way to get enough bushing overlap and not have the lowers extend way down below the axle is to go inverted. The other big issue is the huge doubles they ride, and when they come down or even possibly case a jump, they need the extra strength of an inverted design, in fact these usually have dynamic bushings, in that the top of the stanchion has a bushing and the top of the uppers is a surface the bushing moves against. This feature has only been used on the Monster T and Shiver SC forks to my knowledge (the dynamic bushing).

For the road bikes, realize you are looking at a huge inverted fork with 50+mm stanchions, massive crowns and axle, a HUGE distance relatively between the top and bottom crowns, and only 2-3 of travel. If you made a mountain bike fork with the same general dimensions, it would be stiff too. That's not the way it works though on mtbs, we use inverted designs for bikes with lots of travel usually, and at the lower-travel amounts it's just not structurally efficient in the first place. The moto bike also benefits a little from the unsprung weight, but when you look at the entire system, the fork would already be as massive as it is no matter if it's inverted or not. Due to the minimal amount of travel, it doesn't give up anything and loses a bit of unsprung weight, in addition to slightly better lubrication.

It's just not the same thing with mountain bikes. Inverted forks are generally a poor idea. I've owned 3 different ones, none were very good structurally. Single crown inverted forks are an especially bad idea, lacking the 2nd crown and extra bushing overlap, and the bushing overlap is usually why a designer goes to an inverted fork in the first place.

They look cool, and with enough engineering and $$$ you can make it comparable to a "right side up" fork, but with the same amount of engineering work and $$$ you could make a right-side-up fork even stiffer and lighter.


----------



## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Jayem said:


> For different reasons.
> 
> For the off-road ones, it's because they have more than 12" of travel, the only way to get enough bushing overlap and not have the lowers extend way down below the axle is to go inverted. The other big issue is the huge doubles they ride, and when they come down or even possibly case a jump, they need the extra strength of an inverted design, in fact these usually have dynamic bushings, in that the top of the stanchion has a bushing and the top of the uppers is a surface the bushing moves against. This feature has only been used on the Monster T and Shiver SC forks to my knowledge (the dynamic bushing).
> 
> ...


There's another company doing it:
DVO Suspension


----------



## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

And don't forget Leftys; they're inverted "forks".


----------



## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

hardtailkid said:


> Wow, this has to be a new low. Guys on an internet forum bashing a successful individual who just happens to mountain bike (which is why you all are here, let's remember). You must be really mad at something.


How do you know he is a mtbr?

He could be a rodie and then it would be ok to make fun of him. 

j/k


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> There's another company doing it:
> DVO Suspension


Yep, and they've stated that the reason is because making cast lowers is very cost prohibitive for a small company, so they are going the inverted+dynamic bushings route with some other stuff that is unique. The point is that you "can" do it, but it's much more engineering intensive, that much engineering can get you an even better "normal" fork, but they are held back by the cast lowers at this point.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

skiahh said:


> And don't forget Leftys; they're inverted "forks".


With "square" stanchions. That's where they get their rigidity. Not really the same thing.


----------



## ehigh (Apr 19, 2011)

bunch of ducks quackin


----------



## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

You are all amateurs. This is my car. Seriously.

It has air conditioning, a radio, two front seats and that's about it. The ideal car.

It fits the girlfriend's bike, gets reasonable gas mileage, was inexpensive, and I make enough money to easily afford a much nicer car except cars don't interest me at all.


----------



## ehigh (Apr 19, 2011)

Ehhh it looks too well thought out, I like the whole old Camry wagon with rust spots gig. 

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

Is that a Ford Transit? Nice setup.


----------



## Hot Tub (May 9, 2011)

Scott In MD said:


> 2 years ago I was loading up after a ride in the fabulous Frederick MD watershed. A giant custom touring van , like the kind that National Car Renal uses to shuttle people to and from the airport to the rental lot, pulls up to the Yellow Trail trail head on Gambrill Park road. Inside was all custom decked out with flat screen high def, window tint, microbrew mini-keg tap, leather and stainless, the whole enchilada. On back was a trailer, inside trailer over a half dozen premium trail bikes, several brands. All carbon. Four Asian dudes maybe 25 y/o in the van, one guy says , "Our buddy is rich and so we just drive around the USA from Cali to Maine riding all the great stuff we can. We move east and north through the Summer after riding all Winter and Spring and in Arizona, Utah, and Colorado. "
> 
> Serious. They were pretty good riders, too.


That's awesome! At least they're making use of that kind of privilege.


----------



## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Ailuropoda said:


> You are all amateurs. This is my car. Seriously.
> 
> It has air conditioning, a radio, two front seats and that's about it. The ideal car.


That's what I usually say when friends are telling about their new sports car.

Comments like "great heating system" does not go down well 

Personally I gave up on having a car a couple of years ago. 
I never got around to use it, so whenever I actually wanted to use it, it was always causing trouble.
Partly that could be due to the climate here, and the fact that the garage is reserved for bikes.

Magura


----------



## D45yth (Jan 30, 2009)

For those of you wondering about the Audi Bike...The fork is a German:A - Flame. Nearly everything on the bike is German. It has Acros hydraulic gears and Supersonic (I think that's what they're called?) brakes.


----------



## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

thanks to the d!ckheads who are giving me negative rep for pointing out that i am AMUSED at something.

have the balls to sign it next time.


----------



## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

shekky said:


> thanks to the d!ckheads who are giving me negative rep for pointing out that i am AMUSED at something.
> 
> have the balls to sign it next time.


It is amusing. I agree with you.

Not because I hate on people for being successful (quite opposite - I love money), it's because I find irony in the fact that somebody took the time and energy to accumulate, purchase a very expensive car (and probably has a handful of other toys - cars, motorcycles, boats, house(s) with all the fixin's, etc.), but yet skimps on practicality and utility.

In my opinion, a rich person with a true passion for cycling, would have a specific car for cycling - like a utility vehicle, truck, or even as something as badass as Ailuropoda's car. IF I had that sort of money, I would skip out on buying a boat, and direct that money towards a sweet MTB vehicle with all the fixin's.

When somebody is hauling bikes on their Bentley or Ferrari they either 1) Don't care about the car (which means it was a gift, because anybody who earned the money to purchase such a car would cherish it), 2) putting on airs i.e. showing off or 3) they're STUPID. In all cases, it's a slap in the face of those of us who love cycling (and would be more practical about acquiring a proper vehicle for hauling bikes, especially if you have the money to do so) and shun posers.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Dion said:


> When somebody is hauling bikes on their Bentley or Ferrari they either 1) Don't care about the car (which means it was a gift, because anybody who earned the money to purchase such a car would cherish it), 2) putting on airs i.e. showing off or 3) they're STUPID. In all cases, it's a slap in the face of those of us who love cycling (and would be more practical about acquiring a proper vehicle for hauling bikes, especially if you have the money to do so) and shun posers.


4) They only have that car, and wanna go for a ride

That's the reason I mostly see for that sort of thing.

Magura


----------



## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

I don't see anything wrong with it. It's a free country, they are not breaking any laws. it's their money to spend how they see fit.


----------



## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Mr.Magura said:


> 4) They only have that car, and wanna go for a ride
> 
> That's the reason I mostly see for that sort of thing.
> 
> Magura


Could very easily be true. OMG we agree!


----------



## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Could very easily be true. OMG we agree!


I'll put an end to that at my earliest inconvenience 

Magura


----------



## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Mr.Magura said:


> I'll put an end to that at my earliest inconvenience
> 
> Magura


Yeah, we probably both will.


----------



## StiHacka (Feb 2, 2012)

5) Parking lot poseur's heyday with a loaner. :thumbsup:


----------



## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

6) A politician spending tax payers money on a rental.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

shekky said:


> thanks to the d!ckheads who are giving me negative rep for pointing out that i am AMUSED at something.
> 
> have the balls to sign it next time.


Stand by for the next round; the folks who will neg rep you for having the audacity of mentioning you got neg rep.



Dion said:


> It is amusing. I agree with you.
> 
> Not because I hate on people for being successful (quite opposite - I love money), it's because I find irony in the fact that somebody took the time and energy to accumulate, purchase a very expensive car (and probably has a handful of other toys - cars, motorcycles, boats, house(s) with all the fixin's, etc.), but yet skimps on practicality and utility.
> 
> ...


Wow - I've been called out for making some assumptions in this thread, but these are some doozies!


----------



## grizzlyplumber (May 15, 2008)

Has anyone looked into the possibility that it may belong to Barry Bonds? California, Bentley, and he has become quite the road biker in the last few years. Every article that mentions him on a bike has to point out that his bike cost 16 grand. If I had his money my bike would cost a lot more than that.


----------



## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

AZ.MTNS said:


> It won't run long enough to get that hot.


heheheheh...



Jayem said:


> For different reasons.
> snip
> They look cool, and with enough engineering and $$$ you can make it comparable to a "right side up" fork, but with the same amount of engineering work and $$$ you could make a right-side-up fork even stiffer and lighter.


Interesting. Never thought about what was going on inside...


Ailuropoda said:


> You are all amateurs. This is my car. Seriously.
> 
> It has air conditioning, a radio, two front seats and that's about it. The ideal car.
> 
> It fits the girlfriend's bike, gets reasonable gas mileage, was inexpensive, and I make enough money to easily afford a much nicer car except cars don't interest me at all.


I keep eyeballing those for myself. It seems like it would also be decent to sleep in. I like to have 4 people every now and then, though, and a little more pep. The next gen TransitConnect is looking pretty good.


----------



## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> So one day I pulled up to a major trail head in So Cal in my new Bentley coupe. I got out, went to the trunk and pulled out my shoes. I saw these two guys just looking at me. I thought WTF, aren't people with Bentleys allowed to ride mountain bikes? A couple minutes later my butler pulled up with my new Niner, and I was off for a good two hour ride. The whole ride I was thinking, these poor saps have to haul their own bikes! Oh BTW, I was wearing baggies and I looked in better shape then both of the guys looking at me. I think I saw them on the other side of their car holding hands.
> 
> Not kidding.





grizzlyplumber said:


> Has anyone looked into the possibility that it may belong to Barry Bonds? California, Bentley, and he has become quite the road biker in the last few years.


Do I look like Barry Bonds to you?


----------



## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

grizzlyplumber said:


> Has anyone looked into the possibility that it may belong to Barry Bonds? California, Bentley, and he has become quite the road biker in the last few years. Every article that mentions him on a bike has to point out that his bike cost 16 grand. If I had his money my bike would cost a lot more than that.


the photo was taken about a block from my house. no, the car does not belong to barry bonds...


----------



## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Oh, that Bentley. Sorry


----------



## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

skiahh said:


> Wow - I've been called out for making some assumptions in this thread, but these are some doozies!


Absolutely. I won't take some fake stance "Oh... who are we to judge?"

Everybody judges, and I am judged. This whole forum judges - heck, even by the name of it as a "review" site, means we scrutinize everything from brake cables to complete bikes and bike shops. So, I will not try to fake it say that I wouldn't judge if I saw something as stupid as a bike rack on a $250,000 sports car.

Conversely, when people put $3,000 wheels and tires on a $1,000 P.O.S. - it's stupid. When 24 yr. old beautiful women get plastic surgery, screwing up perfectly natural beauty - it's stupid. And desecrating a beautiful $250,000 Italian sports car, that many can only come close to at car shows and dreams going back to childhood - costing more than what many people will take many years of work to equal that amount... with a $200 bike rack? It's STUPID.

It's their money... do what they want - it affects me in no way. But it's still stupid, which is why Shekky found it amusing, and I do too.

People will probably want to leave me negative rep for that. Don't waste your time. I haven't read my rep since MTBR implemented the rep system, and never intend to.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Olasher said:


> No, I think it is legit.....


It looks like a computer generated rendering to me. This bike may exist, but that's not a real picture.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

kapusta said:


> It looks like a computer generated rendering to me. This bike may exist, but that's not a real picture.


I saw a vid of a guy riding it somewhere, so it's real alright.

Magura


----------



## Olasher (Apr 30, 2012)

kapusta said:


> It looks like a computer generated rendering to me. This bike may exist, but that's not a real picture.


Obviously the image I posted is a rendering, but the bike is real.


----------



## PerfectZero (Jul 22, 2010)

shekky said:


> for some reason, i found the fact that this very expensive vehicle had a rack strapped on kind of amusing:


I found the pic amusing.

tl;dr the rest of the thread.


----------



## rangeriderdave (Aug 29, 2008)

As to forks being upside down and no brace ,have you looked at any motocross bikes lately or for that matter a Maverick or Mountain cycle fork?


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

rangeriderdave said:


> As to forks being upside down and no brace ,have you looked at any motocross bikes lately or for that matter a Maverick or Mountain cycle fork?


USD single crown forks, simply has no place. Think about it and you'll see why.

Magura


----------



## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

rangeriderdave said:


> As to forks being upside down and no brace ,have you looked at any motocross bikes lately or for that matter a Maverick or Mountain cycle fork?


MX bikes don't have to worry about weight to much. So, they can make the forks as massive as need be to do a proper job. And, the Mountain Cycle forks weren't very stiff.


----------



## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

all this talk about USD forks makes me think of halson designs:

RARE Purple Ano 1" Halson Designs 'PDS Inversion' Bicycle Suspension Fork Rad | eBay

i have never seen one in the flesh...


----------



## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

Olasher said:


> No, I think it is legit.....


It is legit, but what you failed to mention is that it's an electric bike.
Audi Introduces New E-bike - Wörthersee Electric Bicycle | Mountain Bike Review



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Jrkimbrough (Sep 27, 2008)

No reason to think so deeply about this.........just ride by, point and laugh and carry on.


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

shekky said:


> thanks to the d!ckheads who are giving me negative rep for pointing out that i am AMUSED at something.
> 
> have the balls to sign it next time.


Get used to it, b!tches will act like b!tches and anonymously give negative rep because they have no balls.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

shekky said:


> all this talk about USD forks makes me think of halson designs:
> 
> RARE Purple Ano 1" Halson Designs 'PDS Inversion' Bicycle Suspension Fork Rad | eBay
> 
> i have never seen one in the flesh...


so why does it have bellows at the top?


----------



## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Bill in Houston said:


> so why does it have bellows at the top?


i dunno.

i do know these things were upside down forks, though. i used to see ads for them in all the magazines and read a few reviews. can't find jack on the internets about them, though.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

link: Ventana Marble Peak Mountain Bike Action, April 1995 | Ventana Mountain Bikes USA

quote from link:

"&#8230;& THAT INVERTED FORK
An inverted suspension fork is a great idea on paper. The strongest part of a fork needs to be at the top, next to the crown. It makes good engineering sense to use the large-diameter alloy part on the top, and put the smaller-diameter, moving part on the bottom. Not only is this a better use of materials, supporting the bearings and sealing its moving parts is made easier with an inverted arrangement. Known as "upside-down forks," the idea has been borrowed from motorcycles (even though professional motorcycle racers are returning to right-side-up forks).

The fly in the ointment of upside-down forks is the brakes. They must be close to the rim, and that means ten inches above the front axle. Since the upper part closest to the rim of upside-down forks doesn't move, it's hard to get the brakes to follow the rim. This problem has sidetracked most inverted fork concepts into the waste can. Halson Inversion forks solved this problem by slotting the upper alloy section of its fork. The cantilever bosses move up and down inside the vertical slots without having to depend on a disc brake. You get superb bearing overlap, increased rigidity and less unsprung weight (the part of the suspension that follows the ground on upside-down forks).

There are no contact seals (oil or dust) in the Inversion fork. One all-enveloping rubber boot seals the lower legs, brake bosses and moving brake bridge. No contact seals means less stiction and better low-end suspension performance. The forks come with a million elastomer elements in different durometers for fine-tuning purposes. To remove its elastomer shish-kebab, unscrew the caps on the top of the fork crown and the entire assembly pops out.

Did the Inversion forks live up to their lofty expectations? Actually, yes. Every rider in the evaluation was skeptical of the big black fork. Each returned with a similar comment: "These forks work pretty good." That's the long and short of Halson Inversion forks: they are good all-around performers, well-suited for full-suspension bikes-and, hey, they come stock with 2.375 inches of travel."


----------



## telemike (Jun 20, 2011)

*best vehicle in the world*

A few years ago, I ran into a young ex-computer engineer that cashed in his start up shares just before the tech bubble bust. He had a new "sports mobile" ford van. Full sized van, high 4wd, powerstroke diesel, pop top with full camper stuff. He was at Bunny Flat with some ski buddies and we skied avalanche gulch together.

I saw him the next year at the Lassen Park Devastated area parking area in the spring with his gorgeous telesweetie skiing California corn. His sports mobile had two fine full suspension bikes on the rack.

There's a guy that knows how to spend his money!

Sportsmobile Custom Camper Vans - Your Home Away From Home - even better than my duramax/4wd pop top pickup camper, "Mike's Telemark Hotel".


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Olasher said:


> Obviously the image I posted is a rendering, but the bike is real.


I looked around, and you are right, it does exist.


----------



## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

This thread suuuuucks


----------



## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Guys, please excuse the comments of Pete Fagerlin, aka Krapao Gai - he likes to inject his textual diarrhea on MTBR forums....


----------



## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

I just wanted to say the following.

I love to see Pete Fagerlin Rattle peoples cages.


-Posted from my old generic home built PC using a CRT on a cable modem, Windows xp.


----------



## Tone's (Nov 12, 2011)

Zachariah said:


> Guys, please excuse the comments of Pete Fagerlin, aka Krapao Gai - he likes to inject his textual diarrhea on MTBR forums....


Zach, i dont think this is neccesary, the guy was a muppet, now his banned again, what ever you said he would have deserved it :thumbsup:


----------



## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

shekky said:


> There are no contact seals (oil or dust) in the Inversion fork. One all-enveloping rubber boot seals the lower legs, brake bosses and moving brake bridge. No contact seals means less stiction and better low-end suspension performance. The forks come with a million elastomer elements in different durometers for fine-tuning purposes. To remove its elastomer shish-kebab, unscrew the caps on the top of the fork crown and the entire assembly pops out.
> 
> Did the Inversion forks live up to their lofty expectations? Actually, yes. Every rider in the evaluation was skeptical of the big black fork. Each returned with a similar comment: "These forks work pretty good." That's the long and short of Halson Inversion forks: they are good all-around performers, well-suited for full-suspension bikes-and, hey, they come stock with 2.375 inches of travel."


Wow, far out. Thanks for posting. I owe you some rep, but can't get back to you for a while.

Who signs rep 90210? I got negged, and it wasn't even my worst stuff.


----------



## A-Ray (Oct 18, 2009)

I have a pretty wealthy friend with a newer 911 that rides. 
He has a roof rack on it and drives that car everywhere with his bike, regardless of the time of year or the weather. What's even more impressive is that he has no problem throwing his disgusting dirty bike back on on the roof covered in mud when we are done, and then gets his muddy a$$ in his car after a ride without changing his clothes first. 
One time he passed me on the highway on our way to a ride. I have never, and doubt I will ever see a mountain bike travel that fast again


----------



## 1 cog frog (Dec 21, 2004)

*Trollhunter FTW!*



shekky said:


>


Funniest Movie Ever! Not meant to be a comedy, but I laughed my butt off watching it on Netflix. Woke my wife up I was laughing so hard!

frog


----------



## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

1 cog frog said:


> Funniest Movie Ever! Not meant to be a comedy, but I laughed my butt off watching it on Netflix. Woke my wife up I was laughing so hard!
> 
> frog


See this is typically where things goes wrong.

As soon as the significant other wakes up, it's either to bit$h or copulate, none of that leaves you as well as you were 

Magura


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Mr.Magura said:


> See this is typically where things goes wrong.
> 
> As soon as the significant other wakes up, it's either to bit$h or copulate, none of that leaves you as well as you were
> 
> Magura


I don't know about you, but copulation leaves me better then I was. It's the spending my money that leaves me less well off.


----------



## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> I don't know about you, but copulation leaves me better then I was. It's the spending my money that leaves me less well off.


Sure, but not when it's interrupting something fun 

Magura


----------



## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

hardtailkid said:


> Wow, this has to be a new low. Guys on an internet forum bashing a successful individual who just happens to mountain bike (which is why you all are here, let's remember). You must be really mad at something.


They're not bashing - they're celebrating a passion that binds us all together.


----------



## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Mr.Magura said:


> Sure, but not when it's interrupting something fun
> 
> Magura


In that situation, I like to multitask!


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> In that situation, I like to multitask!


Hmm, that is usually frowned upon here 

Magura


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## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

Dion said:


> I haven't read my rep since MTBR implemented the rep system, and never intend to.


How do you read your rep? On second thought, never mind.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Mr.Magura said:


> Hmm, that is usually frowned upon here
> 
> Magura


I encourage it here. Just not enought time to do everything. You should see the multitasking that goes on when I have both girlfriends over at the house!


----------



## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

^^^ Well


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

shekky said:


> for some reason, i found the fact that this very expensive vehicle had a rack strapped on kind of amusing:


I just checked the US websites for Saris, Thule, and Yakima and none of them show a fit for a Bentley. Yakima was the only one that listed Bentley in the car manufacturers list, but they show they have no roof rack fit for it. I guess strapping on a rack to get the bike to the trail head is a better option than not riding.


----------



## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

sgltrak said:


> I just checked the US websites for Saris, Thule, and Yakima and none of them show a fit for a Bentley. Yakima was the only one that listed Bentley in the car manufacturers list, but they show they have no roof rack fit for it. I guess strapping on a rack to get the bike to the trail head is a better option than not riding.


Try SeaSucker, they make one! Lol


----------



## chas_martel (May 14, 2006)

To the OP'er, I did not bother reading all the pages of this thread, did it ever occur to you that the owner of the Bentley thinks of it as "just a car"? He would likely not get the point of this stupid thread. Just like some poor person living in the jungle would be wowed by your car.


----------



## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

chas_martel said:


> To the OP'er, I did not bother reading all the pages of this thread, did it ever occur to you that the owner of the Bentley thinks of it as "just a car"? He would likely not get the point of this stupid thread. Just like some poor person living in the jungle would be wowed by your car.


chas, i don't own a car. is there something wrong with me being amused at something?


----------



## Surfdog93 (May 30, 2005)

Some 20+ years ago, I used to teach windsurfing on a small lake in West Palm.
A personal assistant in a station wagon would stop by with the latest hi-tech boards and then proceed to rig some sails. A short time later a couple in their late 40's would arrive in their Bentley or Rolls and immediately get on the water and start sailing.....I'll always remember that as being pretty cool and they were the nicest folks.


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## chas_martel (May 14, 2006)

shekky said:


> chas, i don't own a car. is there something wrong with me being amused at something?


No, nothing at all. It must be the same way I am amused at you for thinking it a big deal someone has a bike rack on their car.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

chas_martel said:


> No, nothing at all. It must be the same way I am amused at you for thinking it a big deal someone has a bike rack on their car.


who said i thought it was a big deal? you're just another internet tough guy, trying to start a fight. i'm not going to waste my time arguing with idiots on the internets.


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## chas_martel (May 14, 2006)

shekky said:


> who said i thought it was a big deal? you're just another internet tough guy, trying to start a fight. i'm not going to waste my time arguing with idiots on the internets.


To me, you seemed to make a big deal out of a biker putting a bike rack on his car. I was just pointing out that it was no big deal at all for a biker to put a rack on his friggin' car!

Starting a fight?  I commented on you and did not ask for you to respond to me at all. You did that all on your own.

You called me an idiot. Where did I call you any name at all? In real life you'd be labeled as the one itching to start a fight, not I.


----------



## wmac (Sep 29, 2010)




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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

shekky said:


> you're just another internet tough guy, trying to start a fight.





chas_martel said:


> Where did I call you any name at all? In real life you'd be labeled as the one itching to start a fight, not I.


Okay, let's get this over with. One of y'all say "neener neener neener" and the other say "na na na boo boo."


----------



## Bokchoicowboy (Aug 7, 2007)

I think the reasons for this little scrimmage occurring may fall under this theory:


----------



## heavychevy (Dec 5, 2012)

this is the forum i signed up for? i drive an old f150 and my new-to-mebike cost me $50. i ride for the enjoyment of it and i dont care what the next guy is doing or what he thinks of me. guess im not gonna be popular in here.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Bill in Houston said:


> Okay, let's get this over with. One of y'all say "neener neener neener" and the other say "na na na boo boo."


fortunately, MTBR has an "ignore" function.


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

shwinn8 said:


> yeah, because that's what all of us cash strapped people what to see... BUT somewhere i saw 2 Ferrari's with racks on them


I call shenanigans. You sure the racks weren't mounted to the ladies sitting shotgun?


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

kjlued said:


> You guys are doing it all wrong.
> 
> It isn't how you get the bikes to the trail, it is how many you can get there at one time.
> 
> Now this guy has passion!


looks flexy.


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

LostBoyScout said:


> I'm choosing to ignore Krapao as he is obviously a troll by the nonsense posts.
> 
> I would never drive a car like that no matter how much money I had, but I do find it a little bit relieving when someone who spends like that can still appreciate bikes. Or more likely... his kid rides bikes. But I'll try to stay optimistic.


I'd have more hope for society of this guy strapped his two 8-and 10 year-old kids' bikes on there than his own. Like "sure Timmy, I'll take you to the BMX park."


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## jerry68 (Aug 23, 2007)

kjlued said:


> Maybe they spent all their money on that car.


I took this at Biltmore Square earlier this year...


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## edebolt (Feb 22, 2008)

Sports mobile is very practical.. I used to use Vanagons.

Here is the thing about having a bike rack on a supercar like a Ferrari or Bentley. 

Without question 100% your going to have supermodels sitting on your lap.

You make the call


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

heavychevy said:


> this is the forum i signed up for? i drive an old f150 and my new-to-mebike cost me $50. i ride for the enjoyment of it and i dont care what the next guy is doing or what he thinks of me. guess im not gonna be popular in here.


+1 on that!


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

Jon Olsson's Lambo anyone? Snow tires, AWD, cargo box, I see nothing wrong with this.

I would do the same damn thing with my bikes if I was loaded. That's called "someone using their car like a car should be used". A Bentley is a footballer's car, nothing noteworthy about it. Run that thing into the ground.


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## arkon11 (Jul 26, 2009)

jerry68 said:


> I took this at Biltmore Square earlier this year...


Any good riding around Ashville? I visited the Biltmore Mansion last year with my family, and the area was beautiful.

Someone should be a massive road gap over the driveway leading to the mansion :thumbsup:


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

sambs827 said:


> I'd have more hope for society of this guy strapped his two 8-and 10 year-old kids' bikes on there than his own. Like "sure Timmy, I'll take you to the BMX park."


Generally the reality of the situation is that those sorts of people have a nanny taking care of their kids if they have them. The nanny drives a modest vehicle that is often paid for by the parent. They have the bikes strapped to that instead.


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## sambs827 (Dec 8, 2008)

sxotty said:


> Generally the reality of the situation is that those sorts of people have a nanny taking care of their kids if they have them. The nanny drives a modest vehicle that is often paid for by the parent. They have the bikes strapped to that instead.


That's exactly my point, actually. If daddy is taking time to take his kids to ride bikes, it shows that not only is he successful professionally but just might turn out to be a successful parent as well.


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## Hoban (Oct 14, 2012)

So what you're saying is that successful people aren't generally good parents?

I really could care what someone else drives. Good for them. I'll concentrate on me and what my family needs and values.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Everyone hates rich people in America now. Everyone want's to sit on their ass and let the government take care of them.


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## Map204 (May 29, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Everyone hates rich people in America now. Everyone want's to sit on their ass and let the government take care of them.


Same can be said for the other side, that the rich take advantage of the poor. The reality is that most people fall in the middle. There are plenty of wealthy people that genuinely care about fostering shared growth instead of only personal gain and plenty of poor who work their ass off to land just above the line where they qualify for government aide. There's no us and them. Support the hard workers, whatever their class.

And just to be on topic, speculating about the situation with the rack on the Bentley is like sitting around dreaming about what you'd do if you won the Powerball. Pure conjecture. There's no bike on the back, so we don't know what's being hauled. Plus, if that was my only car, I'd throw a rack on it. I want to ride, f#$% the finish.


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

XJaredX said:


> Jon Olsson's Lambo anyone? Snow tires, AWD, cargo box, I see nothing wrong with this.


Maybe it's just the fact that I'm a car fanatic and purist but I could never do that if I owned a Lambo (or a Ferrari, or something similar). Absolutely beautiful cars not really designed to be driven in the snow nor to be used as commuting vehicles. If I had that kind of money it would not be too terribly difficult to get a vehicle designed to better fit that job.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Everyone hates rich people in America now. Everyone want's to sit on their ass and let the government take care of them.


I think you're talking about a lot of rich people, right? Maybe the 4,000 millionaires in the that 47 percent of deadbeats? The government does everything for them and our system is now rigged in their favor, even though most give very little back and don't create jobs. The original poster just pointed out the juxtaposition of that fancy yet unreliable car sporting a cheap ghetto rack.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

sigh...from my *original post*..."for some reason, i found the fact that this very expensive vehicle had a rack strapped on *kind of amusing*:"

not_ angry._

not _filled with hate_.

*AMUSING*. yes, _amusing_ is what i typed. right there in black and white, for everybody to see.

usually when we are AMUSED, we have a smile on our faces. i know i did when i saw the car. that's why i took the photo. one does not see a new-ish bentley with a trunk rack strapped to it every day.

especially since the car was parked in my neighborhood, which is relatively modest.

my intention was not to hate on the wealthy or to initiate another Useless Internet Pissing Contest. however, a few of you here take offense at the slightest thing and/or are looking for any excuse to start a fight--hiding behind your internet tough guy personas. thank goodness that there are not that many of you mental midgets polluting the bandwidth here at MTBR...

thank you to those who have privately supported my amusement. it's nice to see random things in everyday life that make us smile...


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

XJaredX said:


> Jon Olsson's Lambo anyone? Snow tires, AWD, cargo box, I see nothing wrong with this.
> 
> I would do the same damn thing with my bikes if I was loaded. That's called "someone using their car like a car should be used". A Bentley is a footballer's car, nothing noteworthy about it. Run that thing into the ground.


I dig this one!


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## wmac (Sep 29, 2010)

I've been watching this thread with amusement. All of the "If I were rich" comments. Hilarious.


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## kdiff (Apr 25, 2010)

shekky said:


> for some reason, i found the fact that this very expensive vehicle had a rack strapped on kind of amusing:


I like it!  Props to the person for finding a way to carry their bike. It suggests a pretty big passion for the sport and I can't fault that.


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## PerfectZero (Jul 22, 2010)

this thread is becoming more amusing than the original pic!


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

sambs827 said:


> That's exactly my point, actually. If daddy is taking time to take his kids to ride bikes, it shows that not only is he successful professionally but just might turn out to be a successful parent as well.


Honestly I was just relating my observations, but they don't imply the kids are turning out poorly just because they are cared for by nannies. If the parents take time to find good nannies it can still work out pretty well. Does that still qualify as a good parenting? If the results are the same one could certainly argue that taking time to find quality care takers does.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Sudden realization...


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## kjlued (Jun 23, 2011)

I find it funny that people find expensive cars with bike racks funny but never seem to laugh at $500 cars with $12k worth of bikes funny.










(dollar amounts are claimed by owner)
https://forums.mtbr.com/downhill-freeride/downhill-bike-racks-cars-561793-3.html



arkon11 said:


> Any good riding around Ashville? I visited the Biltmore Mansion last year with my family, and the area was beautiful.
> 
> Someone should be a massive road gap over the driveway leading to the mansion :thumbsup:


Seriously?

The areas around here are the premier riding areas on the East Coast.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

kjlued said:


> I find it funny that people find expensive cars with bike racks funny but never seem to laugh at $500 cars with $12k worth of bikes funny.


It is funny, but funny awesome


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

kjlued said:


> I find it funny that people find expensive cars with bike racks funny but never seem to laugh at $500 cars with $12k worth of bikes funny.


ooo, man, i bought a 626 like that right when i got out of college, but the greenish color. I loved that car. some knucklehead (not me!) totalled it.


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## DavyRay (Apr 13, 2012)

Ain't y'all ever seen a fishin' car? That's a $100 car on the Carolina coast, with $2000 of salt water fishing gear on it.


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## t0pcat (May 7, 2012)

OK i otta get the windex to clean my screen now! LOL


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

kjlued said:


> You guys are doing it all wrong.
> 
> It isn't how you get the bikes to the trail, it is how many you can get there at one time.
> 
> Now this guy has passion!


This guy is doing it more right, then:








Picture taken by a friend years ago in downtown Missoula.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

mtbnozpikr said:


> Absolutely beautiful cars not really designed to be driven in the snow nor to be used as commuting vehicles


I'd have to disagree with this one. In fact, Porsche (not sure if you consider them beautiful cars or not) has a campaign called "Porsche Everyday" and emphasize their cars aren't supposed to be put in the garage and just brought on sunny Sundays. They're for everyday, all weather use.

I suspect that high end brand markets are torn between the "exclusivity" of people thinking like you do, thereby creating the rarity of these cars and wanting people to think they can be useful, not just fluffy non-functional cars, and therefore be willing to shell out that kind of money to buy them.

A car is a piece of machinery, no matter how beautiful, and if you can't use it like a CAR, then no matter what the cost, it's not worth it. If you're buying a piece of art, or an investment, great. Buy it for that and use it like that; set up a showplace somewhere and watch its value go up... but a "run of the mill" Lambo (or Bentley or Ferrari) isn't art and should be used in the rain or snow, for commuting, hauling bikes or whatever.

Just my .02.


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## wmac (Sep 29, 2010)

^^^Agree. This is they way most people with A LOT of money treat them compared to people who buy them to impress others.


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

I have been on both sides of this equation. In college/bike shop days my bikes were always way more expensive than my cars. Now I am the guy pulling up in an expensive car with a high end bike. When I built up my last bike and posted some photos I got roasted on a local site because it was leaning up against the back of my car. People freaked out thinking that I did it on purpose, but actually it was 1:30 in the morning and it was the most convenient place to put it. I can tell you that I love riding as much as anyone on here so don't automatically write someone off based on their car. Go up and start a conversation and you may be surprised.

BTW I love seeing exotic cars with racks on them and have seen everything from a Ferrari F40 to a Porsche GT2 (I actually have a photo collection of these). In my bike shop days I had to stuff bikes into Bentley etc on a regular basis. I always thought it was awesome. And just to contribute here is a good color combo picture.










GT2 that is daily driven (not me)










And one last cool one


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

if you are wealthy enough to own a very expensive car, it is likely that you don't need to "commute"...however, why not drive your supercar day in and day out? 

i'm curious as to owns the car in my original post, since it was parked in my neighborhood--and my neighborhood is NOT one where people own mega pricey automobiles.

maybe one of my neighbors got the ride of his/her life that sunday, in more ways than one...:thumbsup:


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

Used Bentleys are not that expensive relatively speaking. Used they are around $70K, or about the same as a new 5 series BMW.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Salespunk said:


> Used Bentleys are not that expensive relatively speaking. Used they are around $70K, or about the same as a new 5 series BMW.


You can buy some nice used Ferraris for way less then that, and Porsches for even less.


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## stencil (Nov 23, 2012)

skiahh said:


> I'd have to disagree with this one. In fact, Porsche (not sure if you consider them beautiful cars or not) has a campaign called "Porsche Everyday" and emphasize their cars aren't supposed to be put in the garage and just brought on sunny Sundays. They're for everyday, all weather use.
> 
> I suspect that high end brand markets are torn between the "exclusivity" of people thinking like you do, thereby creating the rarity of these cars and wanting people to think they can be useful, not just fluffy non-functional cars, and therefore be willing to shell out that kind of money to buy them.
> 
> ...


I agree for the most part, BUT:

1) I would not want to be driving a Porsche (911 or Cayman or Boxster at least) in the snow
2) How many of us have different bikes for road and trail, and even different bikes for XC and downhill? Seems kinda... similar. Just sayin'.


----------



## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> You can buy some nice used Ferraris for way less then that, and Porsches for even less.


The more expensive (and unreliable) the car, the worse the resale value. Warren Buffett drives a 7 year old caddy, btw.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Salespunk said:


> Used Bentleys are not that expensive relatively speaking. Used they are around $70K, or about the same as a new 5 series BMW.


from los gatos bentley:

Bentley Los Gatos - Pre-Owned Search


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

stencil said:


> 1) I would not want to be driving a Porsche (911 or Cayman or Boxster at least) in the snow
> 2) How many of us have different bikes for road and trail, and even different bikes for XC and downhill? Seems kinda... similar. Just sayin'.


In principle I agree, but...

1) A convertible or cabrio, well, no. But the 911 would be a terrific one with proper tyres. All wheel drive, traction control, several suspension settings, etc. Ride height may be an issue, but so it is in summer.

2) As a general rule, bikes are a little more affordable than Porsches. Would you be rich, well you are correct. A second car would be on order. But then there's people that just have enough money to afford a car like that, even if it is a little of a sacrifice. That may be the only car for people like that and in cold places, you may have no option but to drive your expensive car.


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## stencil (Nov 23, 2012)

Warp said:


> In principle I agree, but...
> 
> 1) A convertible or cabrio, well, no. But the 911 would be a terrific one with proper tyres. All wheel drive, traction control, several suspension settings, etc. Ride height may be an issue, but so it is in summer.
> 
> 2) As a general rule, bikes are a little more affordable than Porsches. Would you be rich, well you are correct. A second car would be on order. But then there's people that just have enough money to afford a car like that, even if it is a little of a sacrifice. That may be the only car for people like that and in cold places, you may have no option but to drive your expensive car.


Shows what I know... I thought Porsches were RWD (the 997s are).

I drive a relatively nice car (not a 911 by any means), an Audi A5, and I use it for everything from a night out with the wife to the car I bring to the trail head with a rack on top. If I didn't plan on actually using it with its AWD in the snow and dirt, I wouldn't have bought it.

Now here's the flip side - people who get expensive offroad cars like Range Rovers and never take them off road.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

shekky said:


> from los gatos bentley:
> 
> Bentley Los Gatos - Pre-Owned Search


So ugly, they remind me of the tastelessness of Donald Trump.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

skiahh said:


> I'd have to disagree with this one. In fact, Porsche (not sure if you consider them beautiful cars or not) has a campaign called "Porsche Everyday" and emphasize their cars aren't supposed to be put in the garage and just brought on sunny Sundays. They're for everyday, all weather use.
> 
> I suspect that high end brand markets are torn between the "exclusivity" of people thinking like you do, thereby creating the rarity of these cars and wanting people to think they can be useful, not just fluffy non-functional cars, and therefore be willing to shell out that kind of money to buy them.
> 
> ...


People that can afford very high end cars buy them b/c they want them. Not because they need transportation. You can get the same transportation way cheaper. They are partially toys and there is absolutely nothing at all wrong with that. If a person wants to put snow tires and jack up a lambo or some other toy that is perfectly fine. However it doesn't suddenly make the vehicle practical. BTW I saw a guy in a porsche cayenne spinning out all over in the snow while we drove easily thru it in my subaru. So apparently it wasn't that good after all (I have to assume he either had silly tires or did not know how to drive very well, but it was still a bit humorous).


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## RollingWanderer (Jul 23, 2007)

hitek79 said:


> I've ridden with poor guys that smoked me, and rich guys that smoked me. Moral of the story, I'm slow.


+1 :thumbsup:

Drive and ride like you stole it and enjoy the good times!

-RW


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

SS Hack said:


> So ugly, they remind me of the tastelessness of Donald Trump.


Really? I find them quite classy.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

sxotty said:


> You can get the same transportation way cheaper.


Oh no you can't! Do you know how many pairs of panties you can collect driving a Bentley around?


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

stencil said:


> Shows what I know... I thought Porsches were RWD (the 997s are).
> 
> I drive a relatively nice car (not a 911 by any means), an Audi A5, and I use it for everything from a night out with the wife to the car I bring to the trail head with a rack on top. If I didn't plan on actually using it with its AWD in the snow and dirt, I wouldn't have bought it.
> 
> Now here's the flip side - people who get expensive offroad cars like Range Rovers and never take them off road.


Around here in winter for about 2 weeks at least driving on the road might as well be off-road driving


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Really? I find them quite classy.


I think they looked good back in the day. I guess they look about as good as one of those pimped out Chrysler 300s with giant useless wheels.


----------



## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

skiahh said:


> I'd have to disagree with this one. In fact, Porsche (not sure if you consider them beautiful cars or not) has a campaign called "Porsche Everyday" and emphasize their cars aren't supposed to be put in the garage and just brought on sunny Sundays. They're for everyday, all weather use.


That's fine but most Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, and other exotics are track cars. You may be able to throw all season tires on and run on the snow but they were designed for racing and you will simply not be able to do what they were designed for outside of the closed course track. I do think that much (not all) of what Porsche does is beautiful.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

mtbnozpikr said:


> That's fine but most Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, and other exotics are track cars. You may be able to throw all season tires on and run on the snow but they were designed for racing and you will simply not be able to do what they were designed for outside of the closed course track. I do think that much (not all) of what Porsche does is beautiful.


Very few people who own exotics use them as track cars.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Very few people who own exotics use them as track cars.


Hey, in Silicon Valley about half have automatics!


----------



## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

SS Hack said:


> Hey, in Silicon Valley about half have automatics!


I'm sorry to hear that!


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Very few people who own exotics use them as track cars.


I agree with you 100% but it does not change what the car was designed to do. I have been in living in Houston for six months now and have seen more exotics than ever before. Last place that had so many was when I was in Tokyo and Yokohama. A couple of weeks ago I was down town heading to work and I heard the high revving scream of a white Lexus LFA's V10. He pulled into the building across the street from where I work.

It's interesting though because I think that there were many more exotic bikes (mountain bikes that is) when I was at school up in Utah...


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

SS Hack said:


> Hey, in Silicon Valley about half have automatics!


That's because most no longer come in a traditional manual.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Oh no you can't! Do you know how many pairs of panties you can collect driving a Bentley around?


 You got me there man.


----------



## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

OO7 said:


> That's because most no longer come in a traditional manual.


That's sad. Can't say I'd even want one then.


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## PerfectZero (Jul 22, 2010)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Oh no you can't! Do you know how many pairs of panties you can collect driving a Bentley around?


Especially with a bike rack!


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

my "if i were ultra rich" fantasy involves mega-sized mopar luxury from the late sixties/early seventies...god, oh god, oh god, these cars would FLY! (and i'd strap a bike rack to it in a heartbeat)


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

sxotty said:


> People that can afford very high end cars buy them b/c they want them. Not because they need transportation. You can get the same transportation way cheaper. They are partially toys and there is absolutely nothing at all wrong with that. If a person wants to put snow tires and jack up a lambo or some other toy that is perfectly fine. However it doesn't suddenly make the vehicle practical. BTW I saw a guy in a porsche cayenne spinning out all over in the snow while we drove easily thru it in my subaru. So apparently it wasn't that good after all (I have to assume he either had silly tires or did not know how to drive very well, but it was still a bit humorous).


Hey, I never said anything about practicality!! Though there are some aspects that can make some of these expensive cars as practical as a less expensive option. Notice I didn't say anything about value, either. We bought a nicer car for my wife who does use it as a daily driver. With the car seat and all that goes with a youngster in the backseat, too... crumbs, spilled juice etc. Still, we like the car can afford it and it should have great longevity with the diesel engine. I actually sometimes feel uncomfortable driving it, like I don't make enough to be driving a car like that. Image marketing works! I haven't put a bike rack on it, though... YET!

As for the Cayenne, you can't blame the car. I see more people who get in trouble in the SUVs or AWD vehicles than many in FWD or RWD cars. People understand 4WD and AWD go much better in the snow and generally handle better (assuming you don't do stupid stuff) but utterly fail to recognize they won't stop better than any other car with 4 wheel brakes and, in most cases, worse because of the extra weight of the second axle drive components.



mtbnozpikr said:


> That's fine but most Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, and other exotics are track cars. You may be able to throw all season tires on and run on the snow but they were designed for racing and you will simply not be able to do what they were designed for outside of the closed course track. I do think that much (not all) of what Porsche does is beautiful.


Again, I have to disagree. They are not track cars. If they were, they wouldn't have the creature comforts and many of the safety items that are required for cars *designed for the road*. They are designed with racing inspired features and do well and are a boatload of fun on the track, but they are designed as road cars.

I will agree, however, that you will not be able to make full use of their capabilities on the roads in this country, though in Montana you might be able to have some fun for about a hundred bucks. If you get caught!


----------



## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

manbat said:


> Looks like something out of a lame 1970s clint eastwood movie..right turn clyde
> 
> Can imagine the roll going round a corner on a car like that and the mpg...scrap it rofl
> 
> Edit...multiply the roll by a factor of 20 after 150 mg of alchohol


the chrysler imperial was not meant to corner; rather, it was meant to gracefully cruise down arrow-straight interstate 70 between columbus and indianapolis at 80mph...


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

skiahh said:


> Again, I have to disagree. They are not track cars. If they were, they wouldn't have the creature comforts and many of the safety items that are required for cars *designed for the road*. They are designed with racing inspired features and do well and are a boatload of fun on the track, but they are designed as road cars.
> 
> I will agree, however, that you will not be able to make full use of their capabilities on the roads in this country, though in Montana you might be able to have some fun for about a hundred bucks. If you get caught!


Well in Montana if you are driving down the freeway you won't have all that much fun or make use of most of their capabilities since it is just a straight line anyway  You can have more fun and obey the posted speed limit in many many places if you get on twisty roads. Of course one could still be charged with reckless driving.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

manbat said:


> Looks like something out of a lame 1970s clint eastwood movie..right turn clyde
> 
> Can imagine the roll going round a corner on a car like that and the mpg...scrap it rofl
> 
> Edit...multiply the roll by a factor of 20 after 150 mg of alchohol


I'm pretty sure the original designers were drunk as well as most of the buyers!


----------



## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

SS Hack said:


> I'm pretty sure the original designers were drunk as well as most of the buyers!


Elwood Engel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## stencil (Nov 23, 2012)

SS Hack said:


> That's sad. Can't say I'd even want one then.


The new flappy-flap tiptronics are actually quite nice. And quicker than a stick-style shifter.


----------



## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

stencil said:


> The new flappy-flap tiptronics are actually quite nice. And quicker than a stick-style shifter.


Call me old school, but I just like a clutch.


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## shibiwan (Sep 2, 2012)

SS Hack said:


> Call me old school, but I just like a clutch.


I used to say that....

...but since I got my M3 clutchless flappy paddle gearbox track car. Yes it sees the track pretty often. Without a clutch, the left foot can take over braking - and that opens up a whole new world of control. 

-S


----------



## stencil (Nov 23, 2012)

shibiwan said:


> I used to say that....
> 
> ...but since I got my M3 clutchless flappy paddle gearbox track car. Yes it sees the track pretty often. Without a clutch, the left foot can take over braking - and that opens up a whole new world of control.
> 
> -S


What he said.

Remember when you said you'd never give up your XT thumbshifters (maybe I'm aging myself here, but some might get this reference)?


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

stencil said:


> What he said.
> 
> Remember when you said you'd never give up your XT thumbshifters (maybe I'm aging myself here, but some might get this reference)?


I haven't had a shifter on a bike in 20 years, but I get your drift. I do sometimes "speed shift" my Subaru without a clutch - so I can tell it would be very fast. I can go through the gears pretty fast that way.


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## chas_martel (May 14, 2006)

SS Hack said:


> That's sad. Can't say I'd even want one then.


They're doing away with manuals because the clutch-less transmissions result in faster cars.

I believe Ferrari has done away with clutches as of this year. I believe Lambo is to follow.

I myself prefer shifting BUT recognize the clutch-less cars are indeed faster.

What does everyone think about traction control? I've argued endlessly with my 17 year old about keeping the traction control on in his car. He equates the sound of tires spinning with faster speeds. Nothing could be further from the truth.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

Scott In MD said:


> 2 years ago I was loading up after a ride in the fabulous Frederick MD watershed. A giant custom touring van , like the kind that National Car Renal uses to shuttle people to and from the airport to the rental lot, pulls up to the Yellow Trail trail head on Gambrill Park road. Inside was all custom decked out with flat screen high def, window tint, microbrew mini-keg tap, leather and stainless, the whole enchilada. On back was a trailer, inside trailer over a half dozen premium trail bikes, several brands. All carbon. Four Asian dudes maybe 25 y/o in the van, one guy says , "Our buddy is rich and so we just drive around the USA from Cali to Maine riding all the great stuff we can. We move east and north through the Summer after riding all Winter and Spring and in Arizona, Utah, and Colorado. "
> 
> Serious. They were pretty good riders, too.


Instead of male friends, I would hire a female "assistant".


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

chas_martel said:


> What does everyone think about traction control? I've argued endlessly with my 17 year old about keeping the traction control on in his car. He equates the sound of tires spinning with faster speeds. Nothing could be further from the truth.


Traction control makes worse drivers able to drive more quickly or more safely. So it is sort of a wash. The first car I ever drove with flappy shifters and traction control I pushed extremely hard and man it really worked well. Whether it is a good idea (safety? speed? whatever the goal) or not just depends on a whole lot of other factors.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

chas_martel said:


> What does everyone think about traction control? I've argued endlessly with my 17 year old about keeping the traction control on in his car. He equates the sound of tires spinning with faster speeds. Nothing could be further from the truth.


Does he grasp the concept of spinning tires not actually moving the car while those that aren't spinning are actually getting down to the business of moving the car across the ground?

You may actually have to consider yourself a failure as a parent if your kid thinks tires going round and round without actually going anywhere is faster than tires going round and round and moving the car!


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

chas_martel said:


> What does everyone think about traction control?


They are great for bad weather conditions. Of it's dry, it just depends on the system and the available settings.


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## furiousgibbon (Feb 3, 2012)

skiahh said:


> Does he grasp the concept of spinning tires not actually moving the car while those that aren't spinning are actually getting down to the business of moving the car across the ground?
> 
> You may actually have to consider yourself a failure as a parent if your kid thinks tires going round and round without actually going anywhere is faster than tires going round and round and moving the car!


A performance car is ruined by traction control. It's often overly intrusive and sometimes dangerous, reducing wheelspin abruptly by basically taking over the throttle, closing it almost completely and then feeding it back slowly. There is no doubt this can be dangerous to spring on a driver who is expecting full power. I've seen it done well, but as soon as you start modifying a car for more power, the traction/stability program doesn't usually keep up. The programs are also often confused by bumpy roads, where there is a brief loss of traction but only due to an uneven road surface. 'Excuse me driver, I'll take over now'. No thanks.

A person who takes driving seriously already has traction control and its in his/her right foot. Wheel spin is something that is not typically followed by an accident. Serious understeer/oversteer is another thing, so stability control programs have their place, but if it can't be disabled completely on the track, I'm not interested in the car.


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

chas_martel said:


> ...
> 
> What does everyone think about traction control? I've argued endlessly with my 17 year old about keeping the traction control on in his car. He equates the sound of tires spinning with faster speeds. Nothing could be further from the truth.


If I had a kid that dumb, I wouldn't let him pilot a 2-ton cage

Driving a vehicle is SERIOUS bizzness, and no one (hardly) takes it as such.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

furiousgibbon said:


> A person who takes driving seriously already has traction control and its in his/her right foot. Wheel spin is something that is not typically followed by an accident. Serious understeer/oversteer is another thing, so stability control programs have their place, but if it can't be disabled completely on the track, I'm not interested in the car.


It isn't quite that simple since traction control allows individual wheels to have the brakes applied and a driver cannot do that. A driver can bias the weight of the vehicle to give more traction to a given wheel, but that is not the same thing.


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## danorano (Nov 14, 2012)

Such an expensive car, and such a cheap bike rack. What's wrong with this picture.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

sxotty said:


> Traction control makes worse drivers able to drive more quickly or more safely. So it is sort of a wash. The first car I ever drove with flappy shifters and traction control I pushed extremely hard and man it really worked well. Whether it is a good idea (safety? speed? whatever the goal) or not just depends on a whole lot of other factors.


On modern cars, it works pretty well. On some of my previous cars, it was kind of poor, especially when you'd reach the limits. Now, the darn thing is pretty good at keeping me going in a straight line. I can disable it, push some buttons, there's the TC, then there's the SC, and some other features too, but while engaged, you are able to go quite fast and maintain control. Some of these cars will "bite you" real fast with it off. Despite what Pete says in this thread, not everyone has had the race-car training in tail-happy cars that he has, it's a good idea in most modern cars to keep it on, and only a few seem to suffer greatly these days under any realistic condition. Keep in mind that most systems won't let you "burn em up" from a standstill unless you attempt to overpower it with high RPM and dropping the clutch. These can be real bad when done by the inexperienced drivers. Even with done without the TC it can still be bad. At the least, it really depends on the car. With many modern cars, turning it off doesn't get you much more performance or handling ability. With some people, it's more about the excitement and mastery that comes with it, rather than it being any faster, in fact for some drivers and situations it will be slower to have it off. It all depends on the car and system, but they are better these days.

They are doing some amazing things with Ferraris and others with the electronic systems at the limit these days. It's not the same system it was 15 years ago.

It gets tiring listening to people ask me to "light them up". You are right that people equate "going fast" with "spinning the wheels". When those people spring for the $1500 to buy new tires, I'll let em up all day long.


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## wmac (Sep 29, 2010)

Turn the traction control off on a ZO6 with street tires and see how long you stay on track.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

furiousgibbon said:


> A performance car is ruined by traction control. It's often overly intrusive and sometimes dangerous, reducing wheelspin abruptly by basically taking over the throttle, closing it almost completely and then feeding it back slowly. There is no doubt this can be dangerous to spring on a driver who is expecting full power. I've seen it done well, but as soon as you start modifying a car for more power, the traction/stability program doesn't usually keep up. The programs are also often confused by bumpy roads, where there is a brief loss of traction but only due to an uneven road surface. 'Excuse me driver, I'll take over now'. No thanks.
> 
> A person who takes driving seriously already has traction control and its in his/her right foot. Wheel spin is something that is not typically followed by an accident. Serious understeer/oversteer is another thing, so stability control programs have their place, but if it can't be disabled completely on the track, I'm not interested in the car.


That may all be true, but it's still a basic principle that if the tire is spinning, it's lost friction which means its lost its ability to propel the car, stop the car or steer the car as effectively as a non-spinning, rolling tire.

Whether you do it manually or computer assisted, spinning tires do not equal speed.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

cowardly incoherent nobody said:


> enough of your slavish worship of the wealthy dude. it's pathetic.


Perhaps you should refrain from posting or repping when you're drunk. That way, at least your pathetic attempt to insult might make even the slightest sense and have a passing relevancy to the post you decided to negative rep.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on being drunk... if you're sober, well, that would just be sad.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

skiahh said:


> That may all be true, but it's still a basic principle that if the tire is spinning, it's lost friction which means its lost its ability to propel the car, stop the car or steer the car as effectively as a non-spinning, rolling tire.
> 
> Whether you do it manually or computer assisted, spinning tires do not equal speed.


However they also equal a stable coefficient of friction. I know people that purposefully make their tires slide in curves that way they don't break lose unexpectedly and lose traction. So they are giving up some traction for consistency.


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## wmac (Sep 29, 2010)

Rich people don't talk about this shiz.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

sxotty said:


> However they also equal a stable coefficient of friction. I know people that purposefully make their tires slide in curves that way they don't break lose unexpectedly and lose traction. So they are giving up some traction for consistency.


True... but you still have to admit that that's a "controlled uncontrolled" maneuver. Because again, tires that are slipping or spinning are not gripping the road. The sliding curve is using momentum with whatever friction may be left to guide the vehicle through the corner, but the driver must be able to stop the sliding at will or risk going off the course, wouldn't you agree?

And I think chas's son is talking about off the line tire squealing (vs not advanced handling techniques) equating to speed where spinning the tires means the car is, well... spinning its wheels but not going anywhere! Much like a recent negative repper!


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

A Ferrari California at the trailhead


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## wmac (Sep 29, 2010)

^^^I wonder what the friction coefficient of the tires is.


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## _Alberto_ (Sep 8, 2012)

wmac said:


> Turn the traction control off on a ZO6 with street tires and see how long you stay on track.


A C6 Z06 is not a super high power car. It is geared well, 60mph in 1st. It runs 325s it isn't hard to lay down power in it. If you can't stay on track get a slower car.

It's all about the driver. Most guys think they are awesome drivers. No track experience. They think a few back road runs makes them Zanardi. It's in our nature.

Traction control works IMO well for regular driving conditions and most non driving folks.

Racing or high HP cars is a different conversation.

I peddle a 700whp car on measly 295's all the time. It's fun to spin around in 2nd, or 3rd when its cold out.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

wmac said:


> ^^^I wonder what the friction coefficient of the tires is.


μ=μk


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## Roy Miller (Sep 19, 2007)

*1971 Dino * sweet ride*

Especially if you consider the ugliness of the 75 Dino.
Is the Dino a show car or do you get to drive it?

Seems there's is a lot of envy out there. Although the fact that you will be judged by your ride will never change. I saw an old guy with his trophy wife and Lambo convertible at the gas station one day. He was about 75 and had a terrible time squeezing into the passenger seat. She was a 40ish busty blonde and stalled the Lambo when she left the pump. Everyone had a good laugh at their expense but still wished that they could afford the Lambo!


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Roy Miller said:


> Especially if you consider the ugliness of the 75 Dino.
> Is the Dino a show car or do you get to drive it?
> 
> Seems there's is a lot of envy out there. Although the fact that you will be judged by your ride will never change. I saw an old guy with his trophy wife and Lambo convertible at the gas station one day. He was about 75 and had a terrible time squeezing into the passenger seat. She was a 40ish busty blonde and stalled the Lambo when she left the pump. Everyone had a good laugh at their expense but still wished that they could afford the Lambo!


i would imagine the dino is a show car unless you can get it to run long enough to drive it...

and if we're going to talk bad assed cars and drivers, i'm throwing this in just for fun!


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## stencil (Nov 23, 2012)

furiousgibbon said:


> A person who takes driving seriously already has traction control and its in his/her right foot. Wheel spin is something that is not typically followed by an accident. Serious understeer/oversteer is another thing, so stability control programs have their place, but if it can't be disabled completely on the track, I'm not interested in the car.


I've never owned a good car that didn't allow you to turn off traction control.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

skiahh said:


> True... but you still have to admit that that's a "controlled uncontrolled" maneuver. Because again, tires that are slipping or spinning are not gripping the road. The sliding curve is using momentum with whatever friction may be left to guide the vehicle through the corner, but the driver must be able to stop the sliding at will or risk going off the course, wouldn't you agree?
> 
> And I think chas's son is talking about off the line tire squealing (vs not advanced handling techniques) equating to speed where spinning the tires means the car is, well... spinning its wheels but not going anywhere! Much like a recent negative repper!


Yeah I was not suggesting spinning improves performance even in that case. Just that some people who actually don't want to crash their vehicle by driving right on the bitter edge of breaking loose purposefully try to break loose ahead of time and drift through the corner so that their control is consistent. I have certainly slid through my share of corners on gravel and it is quite predicable if you are sliding to begin with (especially in an AWD vehicle where you can power through).


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## wmac (Sep 29, 2010)

Unsubscribed


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

shibiwan said:


> Besides, the designer/engineer needs to be slapped for flipping the front shocks (and let the stanchions get nicked by rocks. Also notice that there is no bridge between both stanchions on the fork so expect the front axle to snap the moment you hit the first pebble on the road.
> 
> So much for vaporware. At least make it credible.....


They're called inverted forks, and they've been made for decades.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

It's easy to be rich, if that's all you want. -Kane


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

Rivet said:


> Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made
> 
> I know a person who you would call "rich" If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man


Um, ok.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Rivet said:


> I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.


You're wrong on that one Rivet. According to a recent study, 86% of millionaires are self made. Did you skip high school too? 

Fidelity Survey Finds 86 Percent of Millionaires Are Self-Made


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

BumpityBump said:


> You're wrong on that one Rivet. According to a recent study, 86% of millionaires are self made. Did you skip high school too?
> 
> Fidelity Survey Finds 86 Percent of Millionaires Are Self-Made


And here's why liberals hate the rich. The rich have been able to figure out how to be successful. And because success is difficult. And because demonizing them is easy (and feels good) liberals have been able to convince millions that the rich dont deserve what they've achieved.

It's so much easier to blame the rich for all the ails the world, rather than putting on your boots and going to work.


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## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

Rivet said:


> I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.


That's total BS. All the 'rich' persons I know work their tails off, take risks, and EMPLOY other people. Geezus, this macro-jealousy of success needs to stop.

Sent from my mountain bike while crashing


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

iheartbicycles said:


> And here's why liberals hate the rich. The rich have been able to figure out how to be successful. And because success is difficult. And because demonizing them is easy (and feels good) liberals have been able to convince millions that the rich dont deserve what they've achieved.
> 
> It's so much easier to blame the rich for all the ails the world, rather than putting on your boots and going to work.


That's exactly why he have the stupid president that we have. And, I'm afraid it's going to get worse


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> That's exactly why he have the stupid president that we have. And, I'm afraid it's going to get worse


Saying "you didnt build that" is so much easier than actually going out and building it.


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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

Them city slicker cars are cool but out in the sticks we jack **** up.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

BumpityBump said:


> You're wrong on that one Rivet. According to a recent study, 86% of millionaires are self made. Did you skip high school too?
> 
> Fidelity Survey Finds 86 Percent of Millionaires Are Self-Made


You really should not insult people's reading comprehension when your sources does not in any way support your conclusion. If I ask a person if they are self-made and they say that they are ("were not wealthy growing up" it does not make it so. Nor does a childhood spent in the middle class mean that they did not inherit money later. In most cases parents die after their children have grown up.

Here is some actual data on relative income mobility.



> National Review, a conservative thought leader, wrote that "most Western European and English-speaking nations have higher rates of mobility." Even Representative Paul D. Ryan, a Wisconsin Republican who argues that overall mobility remains high, recently wrote that "mobility from the very bottom up" is "where the United States lags behind."
> 
> At least five large studies in recent years have found the United States to be less mobile than comparable nations. A project led by Markus Jantti, an economist at a Swedish university, found that 42 percent of American men raised in the bottom fifth of incomes stay there as adults. That shows a level of persistent disadvantage much higher than in Denmark (25 percent) and Britain (30 percent) - a country famous for its class constraints.
> 
> ...


Here is a website discussing mobility. 
Economic Mobility Project - Pew Center on the States
If you want to continue and pretend you are free to ignore the data.


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

sxotty said:


> You really should not insult people's reading comprehension when your sources does not in any way support your conclusion. If I ask a person if they are self-made and they say that they are ("were not wealthy growing up" it does not make it so. Nor does a childhood spent in the middle class mean that they did not inherit money later. In most cases parents die after their children have grown up.
> 
> Here is some actual data on relative income mobility.
> 
> ...


Changing the subject also doesnt prove your point. Your earlier post tried to argue that MOST rich people didnt earn it - and are therefore worthy of derision.

Now you're arguing income mobility - not just over all, but from the very bottom. Sorry, different subject.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

iheartbicycles said:


> Changing the subject also doesnt prove your point. Your earlier post tried to argue that MOST rich people didnt earn it - and are therefore worthy of derision.
> 
> Now you're arguing income mobility - not just over all, but from the very bottom. Sorry, different subject.


Where did I ever argue that rich people did not earn it? Could you please point that out for me? While you search fruitlessly consider this.

41% of people now in the top quintile had parents in the top quintile. You can't have 84% of them self made when those are the actual statistics. You can pretend. They can pretend. They can tout how incredibly "self made" they are. But at a max 59% of them could have been partially self made and that is still being generous since some might have barely moved. This does not imply they are lazy, foolish, smart, hard working. They may be any of these things, but 41% of the wealthy had parents who were also wealthy.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

I don't see how it makes any difference how people make it. If they have more then me, I say, good for them. It's not my business or anyone's business how someone has the amount of money that they have.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

No matter how they got it, money doesn't buy happiness. Lots of unhappy rich people and many poor people are very happy.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

iheartbicycles said:


> And here's why liberals hate the rich. The rich have been able to figure out how to be successful. And because success is difficult. And because demonizing them is easy (and feels good) liberals have been able to convince millions that the rich dont deserve what they've achieved.
> 
> It's so much easier to blame the rich for all the ails the world, rather than putting on your boots and going to work.


Don't you live in the bay area? This sounds like talking points from a flyover state politician. I live in one of the richest counties in the state (Marin) and often liberals are the rich.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

sxotty said:


> You really should not insult people's reading comprehension when your sources does not in any way support your conclusion. If I ask a person if they are self-made and they say that they are ("were not wealthy growing up" it does not make it so. Nor does a childhood spent in the middle class mean that they did not inherit money later. In most cases parents die after their children have grown up.
> 
> Here is some actual data on relative income mobility.
> 
> ...


None of that refutes what I posted, if we define successful as being a millionaire, but feel free to carry on. Stanley and Danko showed similar results.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Rivet said:


> I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.


Absolutely incorrect. Most millionares are self-made. Read "The Millionare Next Door." You just see the few who are high profile and "out there." Sure, the Kennedy's and their ilk get all the press but most rich people earned their money.

I do very well and I earn mine every ****ing day.

I also resent the notion that I had things handed to me. Where was President Obama when I was working 120 hours a week as the Senior Resident running the Intensive Care Unit of a major urban hospital for $2.15 an hour? Sitting on his rear in the Illinois State House doing nothing and living off the public which is the goal of the dependocracy.

It's typical of the lazy and poor to envy others because it's easier then doing something to better themselves. Not everybody can be a millionare but almost anybody can improve their condition in life substantially with some self-discipline and hard work.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

Ailuropoda said:


> Absolutely incorrect. Most millionares are self-made. Read "The Millionare Next Door." You just see the few who are high profile and "out there." Sure, the Kennedy's and their ilk get all the press but most rich people earned their money.
> 
> I do very well and I earn mine every ****ing day.
> 
> ...


Yes, Obama is lazy. 

This is all getting ridiculous. I remember now why I don't post here much anymore.

Back to passion about cheap racks on expensive cars!

Thank god ski season is here. Cut a nice load of wood today, and a Christmas tree, that's my kind of passion. :thumbsup: Carry on folks, carry on....


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## _Alberto_ (Sep 8, 2012)

Rivet said:


> I find it amusing that people assume because someone has money they are successful. Most rich people are a product of family wealth and influence passed down from generations. Very rarely are they self made so a good portion of the time the derision directed at them is warranted. I know a person who you would call "rich" who is a phucking high school drop out moron. If it wasn't for his father being a self made successful business man he'd be flipping burgers.


So because your friend...gotcha

You sound like a bitter hater.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

BumpityBump said:


> Yes, Obama is lazy.


Obama seems quite industrious to me, he's got a funny name, he's half black, a Muslim, and not even born in America and he still kicked the **** out of the best that rich white men could offer. Not too shabby. He's even rich for you rich envy folks out there.


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## LostBoyScout (Feb 7, 2008)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> That's exactly why he have the stupid president that we have. And, I'm afraid it's going to get worse


Better than having a president that doesn't grant basic social liberties, but I digress - this is a no-politics forum.

I neither hate on the rich as a group, nor offer any additional respect to them as a group. Those who didn't earn it deserve the same respect as those who don't have it. Judge people by their actions, not their bank accounts.


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## stencil (Nov 23, 2012)

I'm a rich, self-made liberal who voted for Obama and supports Universal healthcare and higher taxes for my income group.

Whatchoo gonna do now?


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

I live in Jackson Hole.

[/ENDTHREAD]


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

iheartbicycles said:


> And here's why liberals hate the rich. The rich have been able to figure out how to be successful. And because success is difficult. And because demonizing them is easy (and feels good) liberals have been able to convince millions that the rich dont deserve what they've achieved.
> 
> It's so much easier to blame the rich for all the ails the world, rather than putting on your boots and going to work.


"And here's why liberals hate the rich."

/facepalm....when i s the last time you have been in northern california? odds are that the owner of the bentley in my original post is probably as liberal as the day is long...


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

stencil said:


> I'm a rich, self-made liberal who voted for Obama and supports Universal healthcare and higher taxes for my income group.
> 
> Whatchoo gonna do now?


Our government can't even do something as simple as get our mail from point A to point B without losing billions. What makes you think they can do something much more difficult as healthcare and not royally screw it up?

Higher taxes? Our government wants higher taxes because of their waste and corruption. So, you want them to take more of our money out of the economy so they can also flush it down the toilet? When are you people going to learn, that with our government, it's never enough. How much of your money are you going to let them waste before you say: enough is enough?


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## LostBoyScout (Feb 7, 2008)

shekky said:


> "And here's why liberals hate the rich."
> 
> /facepalm....when i s the last time you have been in northern california? odds are that the owner of the bentley in my original post is probably as liberal as the day is long...


Yeah, sounds like someone's demonizing the liberals much more than the liberals allegedly demonize the rich. Hypocrisy at its best.

Since it's not going away, here's the thing. Government's primary role is to protect the rights of its citizens. Involvement in the economy is always secondary to this. This is why Republican options as of late are not even options at all - I, along with anyone who believes in equal rights, was HUGELY relieved that Romney didn't take office and couldn't believe that so many supported him. I can't say I'm impressed either with how people's income tax is spent all of the time, but I think there are more fundamental issues with government structure, and the fact that most people in government are grossly overpaid.


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## shibiwan (Sep 2, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Our government can't even do something as simple as get our mail from point A to point B without losing billions. What makes you think they can do something much more difficult as healthcare and not royally screw it up?
> 
> Higher taxes? Our government wants higher taxes because of their waste and corruption. So, you want them to take more of our money out of the economy so they can also flush it down the toilet? When are you people going to learn, that with our government, it's never enough. How much of your money are you going to let them waste before you say: enough is enough?


The us post office is a privately run arm of the government that is actually profitable. It starts making a loss when the lawmakers demand that it pays billions ($5.5 bil) to the federal government. Yes, those losses were created by the leeches in both houses.

At least get your facts right before you spout this crap.

http://redtape.nbcnews.com/_news/20...nt-accounting-behind-postal-service-woes?lite

I'm not going to address the tax stuff you talk about.... that's complete BS especially with all the loopholes in the tax laws.....and I'm not going to help you understand how $100 matters much much more to a poor person than $5000 to a millionaire.

-S

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## legking (Dec 8, 2012)

Thou shalt not judge :nono:


This passion thread has degraded into a rich versus poor. 


My passion is riding my Mongoose Blackcomb All Mountain dual suspension. I ride. And that's all I care for. Take after my example, for I exhibit great character and ethics.


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## LostBoyScout (Feb 7, 2008)

legking said:


> This passion thread has degraded into a rich versus poor.


Naw, not at all. It degraded into informed vs. mis-informed! 

Aaaaaand that's why MTBR doesn't want politics on its boards. I've lost a bunch of respect for users I otherwise would have never known differed fundamentally so much, nor cared. On the other hand, if we could get just a little bit of understanding of each side across...


----------



## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

legking said:


> Thou shalt not judge
> 
> Take after my example, for I exhibit great character and ethics.


You're judging.


----------



## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm guessing this would be sacrilege.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

SV11 said:


> I'm guessing this would be sacrilege.
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Yep. Should have painted the trailer to match the car.


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## jerry68 (Aug 23, 2007)

SV11 said:


> I'm guessing this would be sacrilege.
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


The sacrilege is the $200 Walmart bike :skep: ...


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

LostBoyScout said:


> Since it's not going away, here's the thing. Government's primary role is to protect the rights of its citizens. Involvement in the economy is always secondary to this. This is why Republican options as of late are not even options at all - I, along with anyone who believes in equal rights, was HUGELY relieved that Romney didn't take office and couldn't believe that so many supported him. I can't say I'm impressed either with how people's income tax is spent all of the time, but I think there are more fundamental issues with government structure, and the fact that most people in government are grossly overpaid.


Since you seem fairly reasonable I thought I would mention that in actuallity federal government bureaucrats are paid less given their education level compared to pivate sector.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

sxotty said:


> Since you seem fairly reasonable I thought I would mention that in actuallity federal government bureaucrats are paid less given their education level compared to pivate sector.


This is fairly true. You want to see grossly overpaid and often unqualified, just look to local and state government. I know worthless secretaries making well over a 100k in one bay area city, yet they laid off cops instead to cut the budget.


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## LostBoyScout (Feb 7, 2008)

sxotty said:


> Since you seem fairly reasonable I thought I would mention that in actuallity federal government bureaucrats are paid less given their education level compared to pivate sector.


Thanks for the optimism, lol.

I was thinking more on the municipal level. I'm actually Canadian (explains a lot!) but if it's anything like here, government workers are paid three times the minimum wage to cut grass and the like. Also with the benefits packages, landing a city gig is like winning the lotto. It should be comparable to other jobs IMO. Again I am assuming based on Canadian tendencies. This as mentioned doesn't fall under the President's umbrella but is tax dollar funded


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

SS Hack said:


> No matter how they got it, money doesn't buy happiness.


I'll politely disagree...

This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

HAL 9000 said:


> I'll politely disagree...
> 
> This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.


Safe' perhaps... but there's not much about that car that would fall anywhere near the definition of "stealth"!

Enjoy and happy birthday!


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## stencil (Nov 23, 2012)

HAL 9000 said:


> I'll politely disagree...
> 
> This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.


You're gonna put a muddy mountain bike INSIDE your car? Get yourself a rack for riding days, sir. Trust me on this.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

SS Hack said:


> This is fairly true. You want to see grossly overpaid and often unqualified, just look to local and state government. I know worthless secretaries making well over a 100k in one bay area city, yet they laid off cops instead to cut the budget.


Yes this is generally true, and I find it annoying when such employees are also lazy and do a bad job, but I don't mind paying people a livable wage for a job well done even if the job isn't super difficult to qualify for. The problem is that certain areas such as the bay area require ridiculous amounts of money to find a place to live and therefore a livable wage is far higher than elsewhere.



LostBoyScout said:


> Thanks for the optimism, lol.
> 
> I was thinking more on the municipal level. I'm actually Canadian (explains a lot!) but if it's anything like here, government workers are paid three times the minimum wage to cut grass and the like. Also with the benefits packages, landing a city gig is like winning the lotto. It should be comparable to other jobs IMO. Again I am assuming based on Canadian tendencies. This as mentioned doesn't fall under the President's umbrella but is tax dollar funded


Even at the federal level as the education level of the employee declines they do better than their private sector counterparts, but as the education level increases they do worse. Basically wages are more even across the range which pulls the top down and the bottom up. I am not endorsing this or complaining, just commenting on it.

@Hal that is a nice car and will be fun. However if I were to buy a toy someday I think I would tend toward something like the lotus elise. I have always been partial to them.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

HAL 9000 said:


> I'll politely disagree...
> 
> This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.


You've got modest dreams and no doubt earned it. Enjoy!


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## shibiwan (Sep 2, 2012)

SV11 said:


> I'm guessing this would be sacrilege.
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


mmmm a GT3. I rather see it pulling a trailer (I see the track tires on the trailer and hopefully the rest of the owner's track kit is inside the box) than being a "trailer-queen" GT3 that is carried to and from the track with a trailer.

I've always said "Daily driver is a state of mind.".....and all my track cars thus far have fit that description.

WTF bike is that on it anyhoo? Looks like a cheapie.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

Well this thread has gotten tremendously more interesting . . .


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

SS Hack said:


> You've got modest dreams and no doubt earned it. Enjoy!


Which pretty much is the trick if you ask me. 
Being content.

At a relatively modest point, money does not really bring much to the table.
Below that point, money makes a lot of difference.

I saw an article not long ago, where the point was to see where more money does no longer increase the level of happiness. 
The exact number was differing a bit, depending where people are situated, but for most of the industrialized countries, it was around an annual income of 150,000$.
I would have expected that number to be a bit higher, maybe like 200,000$.

Personally though I would estimate the number to be much lower, like 50,000$.
Nothing much changed in my life after I crossed that number.
Having said that, part of the reason could be my lack of interest in cars, which seems to push the number upwards quite a bit.

Magura


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Mr.Magura said:


> Personally though I would estimate the number to be much lower, like 50,000$.
> Nothing much changed in my life after I crossed that number.
> Having said that, part of the reason could be my lack of interest in cars, which seems to push the number upwards quite a bit.
> 
> Magura


I don't know. Sometime after I passed that number, I was able to pay off my debt and live debt free thereafter, including buying the car(s) I wanted, when I wanted. That was a pretty big change, and a very happy one, too.

Well, OK, maybe not *any* car I wanted, but for the most part, anyway.

At that $150K number, I might be able to consider buying my last, ultimate toy... an airplane.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

Magura what study was that? I agee with your premise, but as I am curious about such things I would like to read up on it. Anyway I would think 80k myself as a cross over.


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

stencil said:


> You're gonna put a muddy mountain bike INSIDE your car? Get yourself a rack for riding days, sir. Trust me on this.


I've got a friend that has a nice car Challenger SRT8 that fold down the back seats and remove the wheels place the bike on an old queen size comforter fold half over and place the wheels on top.

no muss no fuss

We also have my wife's Honda element that is our main bike transport vehicle therefore I highly doubt I'll be taking a GT500 on too many bike related adventures.


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## stencil (Nov 23, 2012)

HAL 9000 said:


> I've got a friend that has a nice car Challenger SRT8 that fold down the back seats and remove the wheels place the bike on an old queen size comforter fold half over and place the wheels on top.
> 
> no muss no fuss
> 
> We also have my wife's Honda element that is our main bike transport vehicle therefore I highly doubt I'll be taking a GT500 on too many bike related adventures.


Fairnuff. You must be a lot neater than I am, though. No matter what I do mud gets everywhere.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

sxotty said:


> Magura what study was that? I agee with your premise, but as I am curious about such things I would like to read up on it. Anyway I would think 80k myself as a cross over.


Here you go:

The Perfect Income for Happiness? It's $161,000

Magura


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

HAL 9000 said:


> I'll politely disagree...
> 
> This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.


Meh, archaic solid axle rear end is the deal breaker on the New Mustang.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Rivet said:


> Meh, archaic solid axle rear end is the deal breaker on the New Mustang.


At least Ford was able to "invent" overhead cam engines ... some American companies are still working on that. Even 1975 VW rabbits had overhead cams and a cool skateboard like truck rear end.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

Mr.Magura said:


> Here you go:
> 
> The Perfect Income for Happiness? It's $161,000
> 
> Magura


Thanks man. Unfortunately from what I can tell they basically asked a bunch of people "How much money do you need to be happy" and that was the answer they got.

I would prefer if they attempted to see "how happy are you" and "oh by the way how much do you make?"

Given the median income is lower basically most people were saying "I need more money than I have to be happy." At least it could be construed that way. And yes I realize measuring happiness is fraught with difficulty anyway.


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## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

Rivet said:


> Meh, archaic solid axle rear end is the deal breaker on the New Mustang.


That's like saying a hot chicks elbows are pointy...


----------



## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

sxotty said:


> Thanks man. Unfortunately from what I can tell they basically asked a bunch of people "How much money do you need to be happy" and that was the answer they got.
> 
> I would prefer if they attempted to see "how happy are you" and "oh by the way how much do you make?"
> 
> Given the median income is lower basically most people were saying "I need more money than I have to be happy." At least it could be construed that way. And yes I realize measuring happiness is fraught with difficulty anyway.


I read it like they made a questionnaire about the level of happiness perceived, and asked about the income.

I guess such a question will never be answered scientifically, as asking somebody who has never tried being wealthy, how wealthy they need to be to feel happy, is somewhat flawed, as the person has no idea what it would be like.
When you ask people who are wealthy, you often get an answer in one of the extremes. 
Either they are going to fight all their life to gain more, and never be content, or they will tell you that they would be perfectly happy with a relatively modest income.

Often it actually turns out to be a curse for people to have had a taste of being very wealthy. A good friend of mine just pretty much lost his family, cause he was too focused on making money. More often than not, there is a limit where people forget that money is not everything, nice to have, but sure not everything. At that point I see people gaining more frustration and loss than happiness, from increased income.

Magura


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## shibiwan (Sep 2, 2012)

Mr.Magura said:


> Here you go:
> 
> The Perfect Income for Happiness? It's $161,000
> 
> Magura


It's never enough considering all the stupid hobbies I got, and once I factor in the foster kids that my wife and I take in, it becomes impossible to even be "rich". LOL

....on a positive note, my house has tripled in value according to Zillow. :thumbsup:

-S


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

irishpitbull said:


> That's like saying a hot chicks elbows are pointy...


No, the hot chicks got an even hotter sister named ZL1 that is way better in the sack....er on the track.


----------



## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

HAL 9000 said:


> I'll politely disagree...
> 
> This will be my 48th birthday present to myself in 2013 I'll be quite happy driving this to the trail head with my bike stowed neatly in the trunk = safe & stealth.


Oh, wow. That's an absolutely amazing car. I bought a new 2013 Mustang GT with a stick a month ago today and dang it is hot. The new 5.0 runs circles around the 4.6 on all counts. Haven't driven a Shelby but until I do I can dream and congratulate those who have them or are getting them.:thumbsup:


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

SS Hack said:


> At least Ford was able to "invent" overhead cam engines ... some American companies are still working on that. Even 1975 VW rabbits had overhead cams and a cool skateboard like truck rear end.


Well, the pushrod engine takes a lot less space up up high in the bay, which is a benefit, and at the HP it's dolling out, it's not too shabby. Given the actual output, it's not a deal breaker for me, although overhead cams would be better. The suspension was a deal breaker for me though. The solid axle just bounces around too much on the mustang and requires a far stiffer ride to get anywhere near the same performance, but again when in the turns, it lets go, especially in real-world situations that aren't perfectly smooth. They've done all they can with it and a ZL1 (or equivalent camaro) is still faster around a track with less horsepower or less advantageous power to weight. Just not the "entire deal" as far as a sports car is concerned. The 2011s did at least look nice finally. Unfortunately you have to pay a lot more money with the mustangs to get similar packages to the other guys as well, like brakes, etc.


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

Rivet said:


> No, the hot chicks got an even hotter sister named ZL1 that is way better in the sack....er on the track.




2013 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 vs. 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 - RoadandTrack.com

Ford Shelby GT500 vs Chevrolet Camaro ZL1! - Head 2 Head Episode 11 - YouTube

BTW I'm looking for a low mileage 2011 or 2012 I'm not paying $70K for a 2013.


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## jerry68 (Aug 23, 2007)

shibiwan said:


> mmmm a GT3. I rather see it pulling a trailer (I see the track tires on the trailer and hopefully the rest of the owner's track kit is inside the box) than being a "trailer-queen" GT3 that is carried to and from the track with a trailer.
> 
> I've always said "Daily driver is a state of mind.".....and all my track cars thus far have fit that description.
> 
> WTF bike is that on it anyhoo? Looks like a cheapie.


I am betting Huffy/Pacific/Walmart bike just to ride around the pits at the track.


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## shibiwan (Sep 2, 2012)

jerry68 said:


> I am betting Huffy/Pacific/Walmart bike just to ride around the pits at the track.


Should have just strapped it on the trailer then.

-S


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Or drag it behind.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

HAL 9000 said:


> 2013 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 vs. 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 - RoadandTrack.com
> 
> Ford Shelby GT500 vs Chevrolet Camaro ZL1! - Head 2 Head Episode 11 - YouTube
> 
> BTW I'm looking for a low mileage 2011 or 2012 I'm not paying $70K for a 2013.


Phuck it, buy a used C6 and have Lingenfelter turbocharge it.

Awesome thread Hijack by the way


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Rivet said:


> Phuck it, buy a used C6 and have Lingenfelter turbocharge it.
> 
> Awesome thread Hijack by the way


i couldn't be happier. from negativity and name calling to a pretty interesting discussion. great job, everyone! :thumbsup:


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

Rivet said:


> Phuck it, buy a used C6 and have Lingenfelter turbocharge it.
> 
> Awesome thread Hijack by the way


I had a C4 Corvette a 1995 fully loaded both tops and the rare FX3 suspension option it was white with red leather interior just what a single 31yr old needed back then.

It was fun but impractical for a daily driver and the insurance premiums were almost as high as the monthly payment and sadly I sold it eighteen months after I purchased it for something more "practical" :bluefrown:

The C6 Z06's are in the $50K range even for a three year old model and $70K for a 2011 and once again the car is impractical for a daily driver and i don't want that high of a car payment albatross around my neck.

I've done quite a bit of research and am a Ford man already with a 08' F450 and other Ford products in my past including a 85' SVO Mustang. The GT500 is exactly what I'm looking for rare enough that your not going to see one every day but not so rare that they are priced in the stratosphere for a pre-owned one either.

2012 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 Review: Obliterate Boredom | Rumble Seat by Dan Neil - WSJ.com

World's Greatest Drag Race 2! - YouTube

this one goes to 11! 

Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 Super Snake - 750 Horsepower ROAD TEST - YouTube


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

I had a couple of wealthy friends who were mountain bikers. One had a drawer full of Rolex watches, a Rolls Royce and a couple of Harleys in the garage, and rode the cheapest POS MTB I could imagine, a King Sting.

The other had a collection of some 60-odd personal bikes, had a frame builder on speed-dial when he needed a new one, and was otherwise so cheap that he took home all the little soap packages when he stayed in a hotel.


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## Katz (Jan 29, 2012)

Repack Rider said:


> ...and was otherwise so cheap that he took home all the little soap packages when he stayed in a hotel.


I share a common trait with a wealthy individual. Cool!


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## stencil (Nov 23, 2012)

Repack Rider said:


> The other had a collection of some 60-odd personal bikes, had a frame builder on speed-dial when he needed a new one, and was otherwise so cheap that he took home all the little soap packages when he stayed in a hotel.


Hey that saves like... $10 a year. In 10 years that's... $100. And stuff.


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## PerfectZero (Jul 22, 2010)

Repack Rider said:


> he took home all the little soap packages when he stayed in a hotel.












I think that's #4!


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## 50calray (Oct 25, 2010)

"Millionaire Next Door" would be a better book.

The average millionaire doesn't get wrapped up in exotic cars and Yachts. I'm good friends with several Millionaires and most drive Chevy and Fords. A few drive older lower level high end cars like a C Class Mercedes and only one has anything higher class but they needed something to replace their 25yr old vehicle.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

stencil said:


> Hey that saves like... $10 a year. In 10 years that's... $100. And stuff.


But he's doing this in every aspect of his life, some rich people are rich because they're very good (cheap) with their money.


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## stencil (Nov 23, 2012)

SS Hack said:


> But he's doing this in every aspect of his life, some rich people are rich because they're very good (cheap) with their money.


What's the point of being rich if you can't enjoy it?


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

stencil said:


> What's the point of being rich if you can't enjoy it?


Silly Millions


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## stencil (Nov 23, 2012)

HAL 9000 said:


> Silly Millions


Hmm. I'll take the soap.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

stencil said:


> What's the point of being rich if you can't enjoy it?


Money is what these people enjoy and worship.


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## stencil (Nov 23, 2012)

SS Hack said:


> Money is what these people enjoy and worship.


I'lll take the toys!


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

SS Hack said:


> Money is what these people enjoy and worship.


And, the problem with that is?


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> And, the problem with that is?


Nothing at all, as long as it doesn't destroy the environment and subjugate other people. Hey, everyone's gotta have a god. If money makes them feel good, why not?


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

50calray said:


> "Millionaire Next Door" would be a better book.
> 
> The average millionaire doesn't get wrapped up in exotic cars and Yachts. I'm good friends with several Millionaires and most drive Chevy and Fords. A few drive older lower level high end cars like a C Class Mercedes and only one has anything higher class but they needed something to replace their 25yr old vehicle.


Significant difference between saving a $1-2M and earning a high income that leads to 10's of millions in the bank. Millionaire next door is a great roadmap for anyone to save their way to being a millionaire. That does not buy you a 7 series BMW and a 5000 sqft house.

Compare that to someone making $500K/yr. They are taking home $300K and can afford the nice car and a decent but not extravagant house. Maybe an exotic car after 10-15 years of earning that income and being smart about investments. If you are getting into exotics that is the range of people making $1M+ and yachts (not a 30' sailboat) probably closer to $5M per year.

What people don't realize is the real tax burden of people in that $250K+ income range. While it sounds like a lot of money the real buying power is relatively limited. Remember that the top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes and only earn 18% of the income. The bottom 48% pay zero in federal income tax and receive the benefit of that disproportional payment structure.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

SS Hack said:


> Nothing at all, as long as it doesn't destroy the environment and subjugate other people. Hey, everyone's gotta have a god. If money makes them feel good, why not?


I agree, although any economic class can destroy the environment and subjugate others. As long as people are law abiding, I don't care how much money they have or how they got it.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Salespunk said:


> Significant difference between saving a $1-2M and earning a high income that leads to 10's of millions in the bank. Millionaire next door is a great roadmap for anyone to save their way to being a millionaire. That does not buy you a 7 series BMW and a 5000 sqft house.
> 
> Compare that to someone making $500K/yr. They are taking home $300K and can afford the nice car and a decent but not extravagant house. Maybe an exotic car after 10-15 years of earning that income and being smart about investments. If you are getting into exotics that is the range of people making $1M+ and yachts (not a 30' sailboat) probably closer to $5M per year.
> 
> What people don't realize is the real tax burden of people in that $250K+ income range. While it sounds like a lot of money the real buying power is relatively limited. Remember that the top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes and only earn 18% of the income. The bottom 48% pay zero in federal income tax and receive the benefit of that disproportional payment structure.


Being a millionaire isn't what it used to be, unfortunately.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> I agree, although any economic class can destroy the environment and subjugate others. As long as people are law abiding, I don't care how much money they have or how they got it.


In our system, the rich are much better at wrecking the environment and exploiting people. Poor folks do get to live in the polluted aftermath however ...


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Salespunk said:


> Significant difference between saving a $1-2M and earning a high income that leads to 10's of millions in the bank. Millionaire next door is a great roadmap for anyone to save their way to being a millionaire. That does not buy you a 7 series BMW and a 5000 sqft house.
> 
> Compare that to someone making $500K/yr. They are taking home $300K and can afford the nice car and a decent but not extravagant house. Maybe an exotic car after 10-15 years of earning that income and being smart about investments. If you are getting into exotics that is the range of people making $1M+ and yachts (not a 30' sailboat) probably closer to $5M per year.
> 
> What people don't realize is the real tax burden of people in that $250K+ income range. While it sounds like a lot of money the real buying power is relatively limited. Remember that the top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes and only earn 18% of the income. The bottom 48% pay zero in federal income tax and receive the benefit of that disproportional payment structure.


I can tell you know the sting of living in a high cost state. The problem is 250k isn't all that much in SoCal or the Bay Area; but in America's heartland, it is rich. I think we need tax codes tied to cost of living ... it's hard to get ahead when a 2 bedroom home costs 600k.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

There are more federal taxes than income tax. And federal taxes on the top 1% are lower than many quintiles below them b/c they do not have to pay payroll tax on their earnings past a certain point. People always like to include those making 250k and above b/c then the results look vastly different. Look at people making $1million and suddenly things look quite different. High earners pay capital gains tax instead of income tax on much of their income so their rate is much lower. People with jobs that pay normal income and making 80-300k a year are the people who pay a disproportionate share of the federal taxes.

edit here is what those poor folks making a million dollars are paying:








http://www.cbpp.org/files/2-23-10tax.pdf


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Salespunk said:


> What people don't realize is the real tax burden of people in that $250K+ income range. While it sounds like a lot of money the real buying power is relatively limited. Remember that the top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes and only earn 18% of the income. The bottom 48% pay zero in federal income tax and receive the benefit of that disproportional payment structure.


Actually, what we realize is that the effective tax rate and the "on paper" tax rate are two different things. Those poor 48% are also paying the exact same % of tax for things like sales tax, gas tax, license fees, etc...


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

So the rich should pay a disproportionate amount to support the poor correct? The 48% start around $50K in income which is not exactly poor, yet they pay nothing towards national defense, FDA, interstate highways and a host of other Federal programs yet they still derive the benefits.

Can anyone tell me what the global top 1% and 5% are? Should we start paying an international tax to support the poor in other countries? If not, why not? They are people just like those in the US so why should we not help them as well? Their only sin is that they were born in the wrong place.

In answer to my own question, to be in the top 1% globally you have to earn $34K/yr. To be in the top 10%, $12K/yr. 2.8 BILLION people live on less than $2/day. More than 95% of people living in developing countries live on less than $10/day. Nearly everyone on this board, except for a few shop rats (which I used to be) is in the top 1% globally. I propose that we take 48% (the effective top tax rate in California excluding payroll, SDI, etc) and use it to redistribute wealth to the *REAL* bottom 99%, not just those that live in the bubble that is the US.

All of a sudden it doesn't sound so good does it? As long as a new tax does not effect you then it is a good tax. If they start messing with your income it is a horrible idea right? We are at a tipping point in the US where very soon more people will be exempt from Federal income taxes that those who pay them. Tell me what universe that makes sense in.

I am not saying that the current code is perfect or that the rich don't pay enough. I would be willing to pay more as long as everyone pays something. It doesn't have to be a lot, but everyone should be contributing. There is a huge freerider (not the MTB type) in the US where those who don't pay derive significant benefits from those that do.


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

Ok, back to this thread. Let's see some cool cars with bikes on them!!!


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Salespunk said:


> Should we start paying an international tax to support the poor in other countries?


Don't kid yourself man. If the UN has its way, that is exactly what is going to happen.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

Salespunk said:


> So the rich should pay a disproportionate amount to support the poor correct? The 48% start around $50K in income which is not exactly poor, yet they pay nothing towards national defense, FDA, interstate highways and a host of other Federal programs yet they still derive the benefits.


Quit being foolish. The 48% includes the retired as well who already paid into the government for years. You need to actually start with the number of people who are earning and income and currently working when you want to whine about freeloaders. They also pay a lot of payroll taxes etc... so they are hardly free loaders. The earned income tax credit is what is responsible for most of this and it was the baby of Republicans as well. Reagan said "The Earned Income Tax Credit is the best anti-poverty, the best pro-family, the best job creation measure to come out of Congress." The problem is simply one of mobility. If those people had decent jobs and made more money they would pay more taxes.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Salespunk said:


> So the rich should pay a disproportionate amount to support the poor correct? The 48% start around $50K in income which is not exactly poor, yet they pay nothing towards national defense, FDA, interstate highways and a host of other Federal programs yet they still derive the benefits. .


So I haven't paid taxes over the last 5 years? That's new to me??? Who told you that I didn't pay taxes? I think you've taken the bait on the party lines, hook line and sinker. I have no problem closing loopholes for the middle incomes you are talking about, but that changes nothing about the high income brackets that don't pay the "paper rates" because they are rich enough to shift and move their money around to various shelters and take advantage of loopholes that lower income earners can't.


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## BobbyWilliams (Aug 3, 2004)

Salespunk said:


> Ok, back to this thread. Let's see some cool cars with bikes on them!!!


Does this count?


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

BobbyWilliams said:


> Does this count?


I don't know... looks more like a trike with some sort of car on it!!

And I'm not sure I'd put in the "cool" category. Interesting yes, cool? Not so much!


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## BobbyWilliams (Aug 3, 2004)

skiahh said:


> I don't know... looks more like a trike with some sort of car on it!!
> 
> And I'm not sure I'd put in the "cool" category. Interesting yes, cool? Not so much!


How about a bike with a car on it?


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Now THAT is cool!!


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

BobbyWilliams said:


> How about a bike with a car on it?


best post in this thread, hands down...:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

BobbyWilliams said:


> How about a bike with a car on it?


That's an old Challenger R/T right?


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## Steineken (Dec 11, 2012)

lol thats pretty funny id rock my bike rack on my bently, now just need a bently.....


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Steineken said:


> lol thats pretty funny id rock my bike rack on my bently, now just need a bently.....


i'd rock a saris on a bentley, too.

i would just make SURE to wrap my pedals in old t shirts to keep from banging up the trunk lid. (sometimes the bike makes contact with the car when using a trunk rack)

it's a habit i picked up from renting cars...


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Salespunk said:


> Significant difference between saving a $1-2M and earning a high income that leads to 10's of millions in the bank. Millionaire next door is a great roadmap for anyone to save their way to being a millionaire. That does not buy you a 7 series BMW and a 5000 sqft house.
> 
> Compare that to someone making $500K/yr. They are taking home $300K and can afford the nice car and a decent but not extravagant house. Maybe an exotic car after 10-15 years of earning that income and being smart about investments. If you are getting into exotics that is the range of people making $1M+ and yachts (not a 30' sailboat) probably closer to $5M per year.
> 
> What people don't realize is the real tax burden of people in that $250K+ income range. While it sounds like a lot of money the real buying power is relatively limited. Remember that the top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes and only earn 18% of the income. The bottom 48% pay zero in federal income tax and receive the benefit of that disproportional payment structure.


A-men. I make very good money at my job, much more than $500K/yr but I sacrificed in ways many of you can't imagine to get to this point. When I contemplate the taxes I pay and the huge amount of money going to pay people to sit on their butts doing nothing (like most of the malingerers on disability) it makes me angry to think that the whole pack of lazy retards who make up the majority of our population want even more.

It's not money, it's the sweat and blood and years of sacrifice that you folks are taking from me. I don't drive an exotic car and with the exception of expensive mountain bikes I live very frugally and well below my means. I take good care of my ex-wife who is an honorable and decent woman who I let down and i'd infinitely rather give my surplus income to her or my church than to some disgusting fat-body trundling up the aisles at Wal Mart throwing fatty junk food into his cart that he buys with his "food stamp" money.

Folks, there are young men drawing full disability...free medical care, housing assistance, and food stamps...and their disability is drug addiction. Your country is out of control now.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

SS Hack said:


> In our system, the rich are much better at wrecking the environment and exploiting people. Poor folks do get to live in the polluted aftermath however ...


I'm an Emergency Physician. I do very well. Please explain how I exploit people and pollute the environment.

The poor exploit each other horrifically. I see it every day in the constant parade of shootings, beatings, rapes, and drug-induced injuries. And if you've ever driven through the ghetto or a trailer park in Metho-America you will see that the poor have no regard for their own environment whatsoever and that neglect of themselves and their surroundings is the rule, not the exception.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Ailuropoda said:


> Folks, there are young men drawing full disability...free medical care, housing assistance, and food stamps...and their disability is drug addiction. Your country is out of control now.


Yeah, everything is the fault of the poor. It's because they are lazy that we are in this mess...

I've worked all my life, and I'm finally getting into a good financial position. Working up through the levels, I've yet to find this huge mass of people who just doesn't want to work. I've found a few that have a difficult time holding 2 or 3 jobs to feed families, so I guess your solution is to just shoot them or something, but I fail to see how everything is the poor's fault. Have you ever actually paid 35% income tax?


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Ailuropoda said:


> A-men. I make very good money at my job, much more than $500K/yr but I sacrificed in ways many of you can't imagine to get to this point. When I contemplate the taxes I pay and the huge amount of money going to pay people to sit on their butts doing nothing (like most of the malingerers on disability) it makes me angry to think that the whole pack of lazy retards who make up the majority of our population want even more.
> 
> It's not money, it's the sweat and blood and years of sacrifice that you folks are taking from me. I don't drive an exotic car and with the exception of expensive mountain bikes I live very frugally and well below my means. I take good care of my ex-wife who is an honorable and decent woman who I let down and i'd infinitely rather give my surplus income to her or my church than to some disgusting fat-body trundling up the aisles at Wal Mart throwing fatty junk food into his cart that he buys with his "food stamp" money.
> 
> Folks, there are young men drawing full disability...free medical care, housing assistance, and food stamps...and their disability is drug addiction. Your country is out of control now.


Now where's that popcorn smiley?


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## chas_martel (May 14, 2006)

Why in the hell should people pay different amounts of tax? Why should it be tied to income? Most everyone on this thread has it all wrong, IMHumbleO. 

I say we take the amount of money the govt needs each year and divide it by the number of people over the age of 18, wham, that's how much each person over the age of 18 owes in taxes.

Does anyone believe this would lead to properly focusing on spending?


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## shibiwan (Sep 2, 2012)

chas_martel said:


> Why in the hell should people pay different amounts of tax? Why should it be tied to income? Most everyone on this thread has it all wrong, IMHumbleO.
> 
> I say we take the amount of money the govt needs each year and divide it by the number of people over the age of 18, wham, that's how much each person over the age of 18 owes in taxes.
> 
> Does anyone believe this would lead to properly focusing on spending?


*sigh*

Math fail.

If you only got $100 and the gub'mint takes $70, you have how much left over to live on?

Another guy has $10,000 and pays the same amount of $70 in taxes. How much would he have left to spend on necessities?

I sincerely hope you were being sarcastic......

-S

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Jayem said:


> Yeah, everything is the fault of the poor. It's because they are lazy that we are in this mess...
> 
> I've worked all my life, and I'm finally getting into a good financial position. Working up through the levels, I've yet to find this huge mass of people who just doesn't want to work. I've found a few that have a difficult time holding 2 or 3 jobs to feed families, so I guess your solution is to just shoot them or something, but I fail to see how everything is the poor's fault. Have you ever actually paid 35% income tax?


We are in this mess...and this includes Europe...because government policy has created a huge self-perpetuating dependocracy. A gigantic and permanent underclass that depend on the public dole. This is, as demonstrated by Greece, unsustainable because however well-intentioned the policy, the takers soon outnumber the makers and money can neither be printed nor borrowed indefinitely.

As to taxes, I pay well above 35 percent. There are very few legitimate deductions for income earners these days so if you factor in Federal and state taxes as well as FICA the tax on top income earners is more like 45 percent. This is a lot of money but instead of thinking about it as just money consider that the first five hours of my grueling 12-hour shifts are to support bloated government programs that are massively fraudulent.

Can you not see how corrupt and inefficient the public sector has become? It's one huge sucking bureaucratic maw into which your money is thrown to buy your vote by giving you freebies.

And the worst thing about it is that when you kill the productive sector, it becomes increasingly more difficult to give money away. How much more tax exactly do you want me to pay and at what rate will I just quit working and go on welfare myself?


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

Ailuropoda said:


> We are in this mess...and this includes Europe...because government policy has created a huge self-perpetuating dependocracy. A gigantic and permanent underclass that depend on the public dole. This is, as demonstrated by Greece, unsustainable because however well-intentioned the policy, the takers soon outnumber the makers and money can neither be printed nor borrowed indefinitely.


Funnily enough you are totally wrong. Greece is actually something completely different. Look it up and educate yourself instead of listening to talk radio. It is quite illuminating to see the average number of hours worked in Greece. The problem is they do a lot of agricultural work and other things that are not apparently valued economically. Their population also has a propensity to not pay taxes.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2012)

Ailuropoda said:


> We are in this mess...and this includes Europe...because government policy has created a huge self-perpetuating dependocracy. A gigantic and permanent underclass that depend on the public dole. This is, as demonstrated by Greece, unsustainable because however well-intentioned the policy, the takers soon outnumber the makers and money can neither be printed nor borrowed indefinitely.
> 
> As to taxes, I pay well above 35 percent. There are very few legitimate deductions for income earners these days so if you factor in Federal and state taxes as well as FICA the tax on top income earners is more like 45 percent. This is a lot of money but instead of thinking about it as just money consider that the first five hours of my grueling 12-hour shifts are to support bloated government programs that are massively fraudulent.
> 
> ...


Simply perfect, but you are really lucky about your 35%, here it is more than 50%...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

12hr shifts!?, you need a better union!


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## 2000Z3M (Aug 14, 2006)

Jayem said:


> 12hr shifts!?, you need a better union!


union? whats that? I military, I just do the job that needs to get done. Keep in mind, I have also done 16-20 hour shifts every day for 4 months when I have deployed.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

sxotty said:


> Funnily enough you are totally wrong. Greece is actually something completely different. Look it up and educate yourself instead of listening to talk radio. It is quite illuminating to see the average number of hours worked in Greece. The problem is they do a lot of agricultural work and other things that are not apparently valued economically. Their population also has a propensity to not pay taxes.


I was raised in Greece and my mother still live there. I follow the troubles there closely because I still own property there. The productive sector in Greece is small compared to the public sector where one out of three Greeks has (or had) a government job. Most of these jobs are of the paper shuffling variety much beloved of the socialist government that ruined Greece when they wre in power.

Greeks who work in the public sector hardly work at all and most of the agricultural labor is done by Albanian immigrants. As for not paying taxes, if the typical Greek paid all of the taxes he was supposed to he would bankrupt himself. There is not enough wealth or money in Greece to pay their huge debt or finance their yearly deficit, even if you confiscated everything from everybody.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

chas_martel said:


> Does anyone believe this would lead to properly focusing on spending?


Everybody needs to have skin in the game, right? when half of voters don't pay income taxes, they tend to elect people who increase income taxes. i'm not saying your plan is right, but that everyone should pay some.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

this thread has gone from better to bad to better to worse...let's talk about cars some more...would you use a trunk rack with this old caddy, or would you use a roof rack on the trunk lid?


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

Much cooler vehicles than an old caddy to transport yourself to the trail head


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## LostBoyScout (Feb 7, 2008)

Jayem said:


> 12hr shifts!?, you need a better union!


That's a whole other topic we could go to verbal war over. Today's unions have nothing to do with what they should.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

HAL 9000 said:


> Much cooler vehicles than an old caddy to transport yourself to the trail head


vintage toyota land cruiser, hands down. but the caddy takes you there in comfort. as a matter of fact, i'll bet your could carry eight bikes on that car--four on the roof and four on a roof rack mounted to the trunk lid...make that ten bikes, 'cause you can probably squeeze two in the trunk...

tough choice...


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

shekky said:


> this thread has gone from better to bad to better to worse...let's talk about cars some more...would you use a trunk rack with this old caddy, or would you use a roof rack on the trunk lid?


I'd go with the roof rack on the trunk lid. A hitch rack would push you over the overall length limit, and you'd have to get a commercial drivers license. 

HAL9000, out of yours, I like the Bronco best. Land Cruiser a close second. If you threw in an International Scout, I would have a very hard time deciding.


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## BobbyWilliams (Aug 3, 2004)

Bowler? Now that ought to get you to the trail head in style!


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## shibiwan (Sep 2, 2012)

BobbyWilliams said:


> Bowler? Now that ought to get you to the trail head in style!


Is that Burnt Orange? Nice!!


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

sxotty said:


> Funnily enough you are totally wrong. Greece is actually something completely different. Look it up and educate yourself instead of listening to talk radio. It is quite illuminating to see the average number of hours worked in Greece. The problem is they do a lot of agricultural work and other things that are not apparently valued economically. Their population also has a propensity to not pay taxes.


And now you go shot down by the guy from Greece. Who needs to do their homework now?


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

sxotty said:


> Funnily enough you are totally wrong. Greece is actually something completely different. Look it up and educate yourself instead of listening to talk radio. It is quite illuminating to see the average number of hours worked in Greece. The problem is they do a lot of agricultural work and other things that are not apparently valued economically. Their population also has a propensity to not pay taxes.





Ailuropoda said:


> I was raised in Greece and my mother still live there. I follow the troubles there closely because I still own property there. The productive sector in Greece is small compared to the public sector where one out of three Greeks has (or had) a government job. Most of these jobs are of the paper shuffling variety much beloved of the socialist government that ruined Greece when they wre in power.
> 
> Greeks who work in the public sector hardly work at all and most of the agricultural labor is done by Albanian immigrants. As for not paying taxes, if the typical Greek paid all of the taxes he was supposed to he would bankrupt himself. There is not enough wealth or money in Greece to pay their huge debt or finance their yearly deficit, even if you confiscated everything from everybody.


Oh wow... I haven't seen someone get owned like that in a long time!


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

:lol: are youguys actually serious? You think that b/c someone is from a country that makes facts incorrect? You realize anecdotal evidence is well anecdotal? You are embarrassing yourselves.

BBC News - Are Greeks the hardest workers in Europe?


> But the statistics suggest the country has not lost its way due to laziness. If you look at the average annual hours worked by each worker, the Greeks seem very hard-working.
> 
> Figures from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) show that the average Greek worker toils away for 2,017 hours per year which is more than any other European country.
> 
> ...


Owned by facts. Yes those pesky things we all hate.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

shekky said:


> this thread has gone from better to bad to better to worse...let's talk about cars some more...would you use a trunk rack with this old caddy, or would you use a roof rack on the trunk lid?


Neither. You could throw 2 or 3 DH bikes in the trunk of that old boat and still have plenty of room to spare!


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

Ailuropoda said:


> I was raised in Greece and my mother still live there. I follow the troubles there closely because I still own property there. The productive sector in Greece is small compared to the public sector where one out of three Greeks has (or had) a government job. Most of these jobs are of the paper shuffling variety much beloved of the socialist government that ruined Greece when they were in power.
> 
> ]Greeks who work in the public sector hardly work at all and most of the agricultural labor is done by Albanian immigrants. As for not paying taxes, if the typical Greek paid all of the taxes he was supposed to he would bankrupt himself. There is not enough wealth or money in Greece to pay their huge debt or finance their yearly deficit, even if you confiscated everything from everybody.


Here is the deficit as a percent of GDP over time.








Care to explain how they could not pay it if they confiscated everything from everyone? That was the assertion from our resident expert. Let me see 12% of divide by 1 carry the 2... yep 12% is less than 100% and less than 60% remaining after the current taxes are taken. So that destroys the argument that they could not pay their current account deficit. It might be a bad idea but it is ignorant to claim they could not finance their deficit since they have 5x the necessary productivity in 1 year let alone whatever wealth is accumulated.

Now onto tax evasion.
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/12/...renews-struggle-against-tax-evasion.html?_r=0


> Friedrich Schneider, an economics professor at Johannes Kepler University in Linz, Austria, estimates that *about 120 billion euros in Greek assets lie outside the country, representing an extraordinary 65 percent of the country's overall economic output.* The assets abroad include bank deposits, real estate holdings and untaxed business income.
> 
> A frequent adviser to European governments and international financial institutions, Mr. Schneider says that 70 billion euros is in Switzerland, about 20 billion euros is in Britain, with the rest spread out in other places like the United States, Singapore and offshore tax havens like the Cayman Islands.
> 
> ...


Ouch seems like it would be handy for the government if people were paying those taxes after all that 65 percent of the countries economic output would come in pretty handy.

Tax evasion and corruption in Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> The OECD estimated in August 2009 that the size of the Greek black market to be around €65bn (equal to 25% of GDP), resulting each year in €20bn of unpaid taxes.[3] This is a European record in relative terms, and in comparison almost twice as big as the German black market (estimated to 15% of GDP).[4]
> 
> Several successive Greek governments had in the past attempted to improve the situation, but all failed due to tax evasion's place within Greek culture. A rapid increase in government revenues through implementing a more effective tax collecting system has been recommended. Implementing the proper reforms, is however estimated to be a slow process, requiring at least two legislative periods before they start to work.[4]
> 
> *In the last quarter of 2005, participation in tax evasion reached an estimated 49% of the population*,[2] while in January 2006 it fell to 41.6%.[2] A study by researchers from the University of Chicago concluded that tax evasion in 2009 by self-employed professionals alone in Greece (accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers) was €28 billion or 31% of the budget deficit that year.[5]


49% of the populace is evading taxes? Hmmm I guess it isn't a problem though all governments should be so lucky.

How Greek tax evasion helped sink the global economy


> But why did Greece have such a massive budget deficit in the first place? One factor (among many) was rampant tax evasion, which had starved the Greek government of funds. As it turns out, this was a very big deal indeed. The Wall Street Journal's Justin Lahart points to a new paper (pdf) by three economists who estimate that the size of Greek tax evasion accounted for roughly half the country's budget shortfall in 2008 and one-third in 2009.


So the Wall Street Journal that liberal rag said half the countries budget shortfall in 2008 was b/c of tax evasion. Nah they must be crazy b/c we all know it isn't a problem. Somebody said so.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> Neither. You could throw 2 or 3 DH bikes in the trunk of that old boat and still have plenty of room to spare!


yeah, but you can easily fit six or maybe even seven guys in the car...


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## Piratefly (Oct 26, 2012)

shekky said:


> you hire somebody to haul them for you...or buy a honda. if you own a bentley, you likely have that kind of money...


Did you every think that may be his "honda"? Maybe his nice car is a Veyron.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Piratefly said:


> Did you every think that may be his "honda"? Maybe his nice car is a Veyron.


HA! good point!


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Salespunk said:


> And now you go shot down by the guy from Greece. Who needs to do their homework now?


I'm an American. Born in the USA but my parents were Greek and we moved there when I was young, first as my father's last duty station in the Navy and after when he retired. My father immigrated in 1949 after the Greek Civil War, became an engineer and a US Navy officer.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

sxotty said:


> Here is the deficit as a percent of GDP over time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The top marginal rate for a Greek is 45 percent. If he's self-employed he has to kick in 28 percent for the Greek equivalent of Social Security. The top rate starts at 100,000 Euros or about $150,000 per year. Capital gains are taxed at the household rate so a typical "wealthy" Greek is looking at close to 80 percent effective tax. This doesn't count the Value Added Tax or property tax. If a wealthy Greek paid all the taxes he owed he'd give it all of his income to the government.

Property tax itself is a particularly sore spot for many propertied Greeks. My mother's property tax bill is way out of proportion to the current value of her property. In the states at least my property tax went down when the appraised value of the albatross of a house my ex and I own collapsed.

Does this kind of explain why tax evasion is so popular among wealthy Greek? Would you surrender 80-90 percent of your income in exchange for some crappy benefits that you don't need?

I believe that Greece has one of the highest Effective Tax Rates in the world. You can't get blood from a stone.

Let me reiterate that in Greece the so-called "wealthy" if they are squeaky clean and honest you will pay more than 80 percent of their income to taxes. Would you slave away at your business if you were only allowed a pittance for your efforts? That kind of taxation is tyranny. We're not talking about a reasonable tax rate of 15 percent or something that is both bearable and understandable.

Additionally, the public services in Greece are abysmal (well, non-existant now). The public hospitals, for example, are so bad that the wealthy who cannot quite afford to have their relatives treated at private hospitals hire a private nurse to watch over the patient because neglect is the rule, not the exception in the Greek public health system. This is because the majority of tax revenue in Greece goes to supporting the salaries and benefits of the vast legion of public servants, not to services, and these salaries and benefits are lavish. Greek civil servants...and who isn't in Greece...are paid, for example, for fourteen months of work every year. Talk about math not adding up.

The purpose of government according to our founding fathers is to secure the inalienable rights of the people to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is not to confiscate from some to give to others to buy votes.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Ailuropoda said:


> Would you surrender 80 percent of your income in exchange for some crappy benefits that you don't need?


If you add up all the taxes, fees, whatever they want to call it, that we pay. You come to realize that is what is happening right here in the U.S.A.!


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

this:

Exotic Cars With Bike Racks


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

^ With a Cannonbroke, I mean Cannondale on it? OMG!


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

Ailuropoda said:


> The top marginal rate for a Greek is 45 percent. If he's self-employed he has to kick in 28 percent for the Greek equivalent of Social Security. The top rate starts at 100,000 Euros or about $150,000 per year. Capital gains are taxed at the household rate so a typical "wealthy" Greek is looking at close to 80 percent effective tax. This doesn't count the Value Added Tax or property tax. If a wealthy Greek paid all the taxes he owed he'd give it all of his income to the government.


The links I posted already said the tax burden for the average Greek is 40%. It would be super if you included some citations for your assertions. I do not doubt you are relating what you happen to have heard or been familiar with, but that doesn't make it accurate for the country as a whole. BTW tax evasion was popular amongst many different classes of Greeks. Check the WaPo link it shows a map of evasion by political unit in the country. It isn't just the rich. The rich can just do a better job in certain ways than the average person. I really don't think you are correct still.

Greek tax reform bill to tax capital gains on shares | Reuters


> Based on the draft legislation submitted to parliament, Greece will raise the tax rate on corporate profits to 26 percent from 20 percent but lower the tax on distributed dividends to 10 percent from 25 percent currently.
> 
> Capital gains from stock trading on the Athens stock exchange will be subject to a 20 percent tax from April next year, while interest income from bank deposits will be taxed by a higher 15 percent rate versus 10 percent currently.


It doesn't say they tax it at household rate, and previously capital gains were taxed at a lower rate. I don't know where you are getting all this information, but you can do better.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

sxotty said:


> The links I posted already said the tax burden for the average Greek is 40%. It would be super if you included some citations for your assertions. I do not doubt you are relating what you happen to have heard or been familiar with, but that doesn't make it accurate for the country as a whole. BTW tax evasion was popular amongst many different classes of Greeks. Check the WaPo link it shows a map of evasion by political unit in the country. It isn't just the rich. The rich can just do a better job in certain ways than the average person. I really don't think you are correct still.
> 
> Greek tax reform bill to tax capital gains on shares | Reuters
> 
> It doesn't say they tax it at household rate, and previously capital gains were taxed at a lower rate. I don't know where you are getting all this information, but you can do better.


That's the tax burden on the middle class. Greeks who make more than 100,000 Euros are taxed at 45 percent on everything over this and at a progressive rate for everything up to this with only, I believe, the first 12,000 Euros being exempt from taxation. This thread is about the wealthy, not the poor and middle class.

Greece Income Taxes and Tax Laws 2012 - WorldWide-Tax.com

Don't forget that on top of income tax you have to pay into their version Social Security. The average middle class Greek household probably pays 30 percent of their income to income taxes plus 16 percent for "Social Security" plus the 28 percent kicked in by their employer for "Social Security" which is money he can't pay them and the same as a tax on their income making the effective tax rate for even the middle class somewhere in the seventy percent range...if they pay it which most don't thanks to the black market and cash economy.

You'd be stupid to not cheat on taxes in Greece. Literally you will be working for a quarter of what you actually make to pay rent, buy a car, eat, and have some recreation.

I have some friends over there who owe more in taxes than they actually make due to some strange loopholes in the law. What you have to understand is that at a certain tax rate, if enforced, economic activity comes to a standstill. That rate is debatable of course but if I were taxed at 100 percent of my income I'd quit work and ride mountain bikes all day, maybe bartering my services here or there for food and parts.

You do not want me doing this. Trust me.

And naturally there is an optimum tax rate that maximizes revenue to the State that is somewhere between zero and a hundred percent...but probably much closer to the zero side. What Western governments are doing, figuratively, is killing the golden goose...trying to solve a long term problem with the short-term expedience of raising taxes to unsustainable levels. And to do it they play you like a puppet directing your anger at the "rich" instead of the themselves who got you into this mess in the first place. Greece was in much better shape back in the early 1980s before the socialist took over. It hurts me to see how run-down Athens has become.


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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

Ok so it says you were wrong about capital gains taxes which are lower far lower than you claimed. When I say average what I mean is average. I don't mean what the highest income earners are paying b/c I don't care. Lots of people are evading taxes from all tax brackets. It is not a valid excuse that you don't like to pay taxes so you should not have to. If people actually paid their taxes they could lower rates. When you have groups who evade their taxes they are effectively stealing from those that do pay the legally required amount. I am not talking about what the best tax rate is, or what the moral tax rate is, or what the progressive/regressive nature should be. I am saying those that are evading taxes are wrong because they are stealing from those that follow the law. They can vote for politicians that deliver lower taxes. It is a pretty easy thing to sell the electorate. "Elect me and I will lower taxes." It goes over well.

Why would I care if you quit work and rode mountain bikes? I don't see how it would bother me at all. I hope you do so then you won't have to be sad about your 12 hour shifts.

Anyway I will argue more later right now I am annoyed by that bastard in CT who shot all those kids and don't want to worry about someone being wrong on the internet.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

2000Z3M said:


> union? whats that? I military, I just do the job that needs to get done. Keep in mind, I have also done 16-20 hour shifts every day for 4 months when I have deployed.


You didn't make the comment about the 12hr shifts, so I'm not sure why you replied to my post that was addressing that.

I did the military too. In fact, it was amazing how "fairly" I was treated much of the time, compared to my non-union experience. And of course, when I got out of the military, I took my entitlements of college fund, GI bill, and other veterans benefits. For my years in school, I was "48%-ing" it I guess...

And then later, when I was just starting out at my job that paid quite a ways below what all the certificates and schooling would indicate, I worked my rear end off trying to earn as much as possible, but still less than 30k the first year, and less than 40k the 2nd and 3rd. I guess I was an a$$hole for earning so little money and "dragging the country down". What was I thinking?

My original post was trying to address how medical personnel (nurses, doctors, etc) are abused in terms of work rules. I don't trust a doctor or nurse that's been working for 20hrs or longer, and that we have those things going on is just sick. Even the 12hr shifts end on end without proper rest cycles for circadian rhythms.

In any case, the GOP needs to figure out a different way to save the country, rather than blaming it all on the poor...


----------



## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Jayem said:


> You didn't make the comment about the 12hr shifts, so I'm not sure why you replied to my post that was addressing that.
> 
> I did the military too. In fact, it was amazing how "fairly" I was treated much of the time, compared to my non-union experience. And of course, when I got out of the military, I took my entitlements of college fund, GI bill, and other veterans benefits. For my years in school, I was "48%-ing" it I guess...
> 
> ...


the railroads makes crew STOP right there and then when their hours reach either 12 or 16 in a day. i've seen a train stop right in the middle of a crossing until the crew van got there twenty minutes later...Railroad Crews


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

sxotty said:


> Ok so it says you were wrong about capital gains taxes which are lower far lower than you claimed. When I say average what I mean is average. I don't mean what the highest income earners are paying b/c I don't care. Lots of people are evading taxes from all tax brackets. It is not a valid excuse that you don't like to pay taxes so you should not have to. If people actually paid their taxes they could lower rates. When you have groups who evade their taxes they are effectively stealing from those that do pay the legally required amount. I am not talking about what the best tax rate is, or what the moral tax rate is, or what the progressive/regressive nature should be. I am saying those that are evading taxes are wrong because they are stealing from those that follow the law. They can vote for politicians that deliver lower taxes. It is a pretty easy thing to sell the electorate. "Elect me and I will lower taxes." It goes over well.
> 
> Why would I care if you quit work and rode mountain bikes? I don't see how it would bother me at all. I hope you do so then you won't have to be sad about your 12 hour shifts.
> 
> Anyway I will argue more later right now I am annoyed by that bastard in CT who shot all those kids and don't want to worry about someone being wrong on the internet.


Annoyed? I'm devastated!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

shekky said:


> the railroads makes crew STOP right there and then when their hours reach either 12 or 16 in a day. i've seen a train stop right in the middle of a crossing until the crew van got there twenty minutes later...Railroad Crews


Wait, the "railroads" or the "alaska railroads"?, your link is to the railroads in my state, which are effectively cut-off from the rest of the US without the kind of traffic demands and complexity, although I'd imagine they have the system pretty well figured out in the lower 48, just that they don't stop and rest when they reach the end of their day, as it's all though out a bit better. 

The reason we got paid in the military no matter if we worked a lot or a little was that they could push us to perform a mission if necessary. That's the sacrifice you make in that lifestyle, and it's accepted, and your individual life is not as important as accomplishing the mission. In the civilian world, if you die, you don't get to accomplish any of your missions, as well as if you mess up because you are tired on shift, you make other people suffer. We also work hard to get jobs where you don't have to work two jobs at once or 12hr shifts just to break even.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

Jayem said:


> In any case, the GOP needs to figure out a different way to save the country, rather than blaming it all on the poor...


Well, technically, the Dems need to figure it out right now, since they control the White House and Senate, so right now, it's their show. That's just the way it works.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

skiahh said:


> Well, technically, the Dems need to figure it out right now, since they control the White House and Senate, so right now, it's their show. That's just the way it works.


i thought that the two political parties were supposed to work _together_ to solve the nation's problems, regardless of _which_ holds the majority.

now back to relevant subjects:


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

shekky said:


> i thought that the two political parties were supposed to work _together_ to solve the nation's problems, regardless of _which_ holds the majority.
> 
> now back to relevant subjects:


rep :thumbsup:


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## shibiwan (Sep 2, 2012)

shekky said:


> i thought that the two political parties were supposed to work _together_ to solve the nation's problems, regardless of _which_ holds the majority.
> 
> now back to relevant subjects:


Dang... cant rep you again.

Then again the mission of politician these days is trying to keep their jobs. Have you looked at the job market out there? heh

-S


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Jayem said:


> Wait, the "railroads" or the "alaska railroads"?, your link is to the railroads in my state, which are effectively cut-off from the rest of the US without the kind of traffic demands and complexity, although I'd imagine they have the system pretty well figured out in the lower 48, just that they don't stop and rest when they reach the end of their day, as it's all though out a bit better.
> 
> The reason we got paid in the military no matter if we worked a lot or a little was that they could push us to perform a mission if necessary. That's the sacrifice you make in that lifestyle, and it's accepted, and your individual life is not as important as accomplishing the mission. In the civilian world, if you die, you don't get to accomplish any of your missions, as well as if you mess up because you are tired on shift, you make other people suffer. We also work hard to get jobs where you don't have to work two jobs at once or 12hr shifts just to break even.


oops...sorry...it's an FRA requirement. the industry term is "dead on time". 12 hours on the train.

looking for a link with specifics, here's what i have for now:

Tell Me about Life for the Crew of a Modern Freight Train [Archive] - Straight Dope Message Board


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

shibiwan said:


> Dang... cant rep you again.
> 
> Then again the mission of politician these days is trying to keep their jobs. Have you looked at the job market out there? heh
> 
> -S


why do you think i spend so much time on MTBR? lord only knows i need a job and SOON. at least i'm getting interviews...

here's another link about 12 hour days on the railroad for those who want it:

When Does A Train Crew's Time Actually Start?


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

highdelll said:


> rep :thumbsup:


you negged me by mistake...

but it won't kill me...


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## shibiwan (Sep 2, 2012)

shekky said:


> why do you think i spend so much time on MTBR? lord only knows i need a job and SOON. at least i'm getting interviews...
> 
> here's another link about 12 hour days on the railroad for those who want it:
> 
> When Does A Train Crew's Time Actually Start?


The market is picking up slowly though. I'm moving my company into a proper shop starting Jan 1 and we need to hire 3rd shift operators pretty soon.

Living in the Bay Area adds up quickly (I used to live in Fremont on the north side of the 84)... hang in there - we'll keep our fingers crossed for you. If ever you decide to head out my way, give me a shout. 

-S


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

shibiwan said:


> The market is picking up slowly though. I'm moving my company into a proper shop starting Jan 1 and we need to hire 3rd shift operators pretty soon.
> 
> Living in the Bay Area adds up quickly (I used to live in Fremont on the north side of the 84)... hang in there - we'll keep our fingers crossed for you. If ever you decide to head out my way, give me a shout.
> 
> -S


where in the bay area?


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

shekky said:


> you negged me by mistake...
> 
> but it won't kill me...


are you serious?! :madman:
sorry man


----------



## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

sxotty said:


> Ok so it says you were wrong about capital gains taxes which are lower far lower than you claimed. When I say average what I mean is average. I don't mean what the highest income earners are paying b/c I don't care. Lots of people are evading taxes from all tax brackets. It is not a valid excuse that you don't like to pay taxes so you should not have to. If people actually paid their taxes they could lower rates. When you have groups who evade their taxes they are effectively stealing from those that do pay the legally required amount. I am not talking about what the best tax rate is, or what the moral tax rate is, or what the progressive/regressive nature should be. I am saying those that are evading taxes are wrong because they are stealing from those that follow the law. They can vote for politicians that deliver lower taxes. It is a pretty easy thing to sell the electorate. "Elect me and I will lower taxes." It goes over well.
> 
> Why would I care if you quit work and rode mountain bikes? I don't see how it would bother me at all. I hope you do so then you won't have to be sad about your 12 hour shifts.
> 
> Anyway I will argue more later right now I am annoyed by that bastard in CT who shot all those kids and don't want to worry about someone being wrong on the internet.


This thread is about the wealthy, not the middle class and poor. I showed you how high taxes really are for the wealthy and used Greece as a good example of the effect of out-of-control government spending and a high taxes on a nation. It is easy and convenient to blame the rich for everything but this is just misdirection from your ruling elite to deflect attention from the true catastrophe brewing for the entire Western world. You cannot enrich a nation by impoverishing the productive sector and eating the rich might be emotionally satisfying but what will you do after you confiscate everyones's wealth?

The point is that if you tax the productive sector into oblivion there will be no wealth to tax and no freebies for anybody. Nobody is going to work or produce anything if they have to give ninety cents of every dollar they make to what they perceive as a bunch of lazy freeloaders. Very few people will work from the goodness of their heart. I don't dislike my job, for example, but I wouldn't do it for ten percent of what I currently make. It would just not be worth all the hassles.

Not paying taxes is illegal but when the tax rates rise to tyrannical levels it is not immoral and it is not stealing. We are supposed to be a people who have a government, not the other way around. The government is immoral and corrupt to the core as is everything and every institution it touches...which is practically everything. If you want to keep shoveling money into its gaping maw....well...what can I say.


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## beerguitar69 (Nov 5, 2011)

Politics on a mountain bike forum. I think I'll go ride my bike.


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## skiahh (Dec 26, 2003)

shekky said:


> i thought that the two political parties were supposed to work _together_ to solve the nation's problems, regardless of _which_ holds the majority.
> 
> now back to relevant subjects:


In an ideal world/system they are. And for many years, it did work that way. But the way our system has, er, evolved, the party in control is supposed to show enough leadership to inspire the other party to compromise to get things done.

Like I said, that's just the way it works, unfortunately.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Ailuropoda said:


> The point is that if you tax the productive sector into oblivion there will be no wealth to tax and no freebies for anybody.


So let me get this straight. If we tax the wealthy at 40%, they will have no motivation and drive to make any more money, to buy the same things (or more) than they had before...

Yet...

You expect that poor or middle class people will be inspired to make more money and increase their standard of living?

This sounds like a double standard. What is so depressing and unmotivated about being rich? Why would you expect the lower and middle classes to "rise up" and not the rich? Even if the rich guy is taxed at 40%, if he increases his productivity, makes his business more successful, brings in more profit, he still gets to take home more pay.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Jayem said:


> So let me get this straight. If we tax the wealthy at 40%, they will have no motivation and drive to make any more money, to buy the same things (or more) than they had before...
> 
> Yet...
> 
> ...


Tax rates were higher in the "go-go nineties" and the economy boomed like crazy and lifted all boats. Tax rates were much higher than even the 1990s during the 1950s and that era is generally regarded as the biggest and most widespread boom in American history.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

SS Hack said:


> Tax rates were higher in the "go-go nineties" and the economy boomed like crazy and lifted all boats. Tax rates were much higher than even the 1990s during the 1950s and that era is generally regarded as the biggest and most widespread boom in American history.


The economy boomed in the mid 1980s when Reagan drastically lowered the marginal tax rates that had slowly increased to something like 70 percent in the top bracket. Before that was the golden age of loopholes and deductions and the so-called "three martini lunch" where everything was written off to try to reduce net income. Tax rates have been lower since then.

As a point of historical interest, the concept of "benefits" with a job originated when marginal rates where so high that giving raises that put people into higher brackets was no longer an incentive and things like medical and dental, company cars, and other things that were deductible were.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Jayem said:


> So let me get this straight. If we tax the wealthy at 40%, they will have no motivation and drive to make any more money, to buy the same things (or more) than they had before...
> 
> Yet...
> 
> ...


Whoa. Forty percent is high but not high enough to stop, for example, me from working. But let's suppose the marginal rates increase where, for example, everything over $250,000 is taxed at seventy or eighty percent. I'd think long and hard about working past $250,000. At some point free time and leisure are worth more than money. If I lived in Greece where my effective rate approached eighty percent I'd naturally decrease my own economic productivity (and this happens on a macroscopic level as well) to some point well below my capability to produce goods and services.

In my case, this would mean you'd have to find somebody else to fill ER shifts from a shrinking pool of people willing to work for essentially nothing. In the case of a small business it would mean not expanding or hiring the extra employees. Naturally it is more complex than that but generally higher marginal rates lead to decreased productivity...and extreme maneuvers on the part of taxpayers to protect themselves from what becomes government predation.

Keep in mind that the higher your income the less benefit you actually receive from Federal taxation. Schools, roads, fire, and police are mostly paid for by local and state taxes. Federal taxes currently are largely eaten by direct transfers of money, often time to malingerers and freeloaders. Medicaid, the federally subsidized welfare system, and disability programs are largely fraudulent. SSI disability is almost entirely a huge scam. I cannot tell you the number of young, fit, and otherwise healthy men drawing full disability fir "Bipolar, a fraudulent bad back, or drug addiction.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

How or why this thread is still alive - and in the "Passion" forum is beyond me . . .


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

OO7 said:


> How or why this thread is still alive - and in the "Passion" forum is beyond me . . .


Umm, because people like you and me keep posting? Just a thought!


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Umm, because people like you and me keep posting? Just a thought!


back to the root...here's the second shot of the bentley i took that day:


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Ailuropoda said:


> This thread is about the wealthy, not the middle class and poor. I showed you how high taxes really are for the wealthy and used Greece as a good example of the effect of out-of-control government spending and a high taxes on a nation. It is easy and convenient to blame the rich for everything but this is just misdirection from your ruling elite to deflect attention from the true catastrophe brewing for the entire Western world. You cannot enrich a nation by impoverishing the productive sector and eating the rich might be emotionally satisfying but what will you do after you confiscate everyones's wealth?
> 
> The point is that if you tax the productive sector into oblivion there will be no wealth to tax and no freebies for anybody. Nobody is going to work or produce anything if they have to give ninety cents of every dollar they make to what they perceive as a bunch of lazy freeloaders. Very few people will work from the goodness of their heart. I don't dislike my job, for example, but I wouldn't do it for ten percent of what I currently make. It would just not be worth all the hassles.
> 
> Not paying taxes is illegal but when the tax rates rise to tyrannical levels it is not immoral and it is not stealing. We are supposed to be a people who have a government, not the other way around. The government is immoral and corrupt to the core as is everything and every institution it touches...which is practically everything. If you want to keep shoveling money into its gaping maw....well...what can I say.


Well said! Then the government blames the people and take the people's rights away.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

"This thread is about the wealthy, not the middle class and poor."

_*no.*_ as the OP, i say that this thread is about rich people having enough passion for cycling that they strap cheap bike racks to their very expensive automobiles...and how i found it kind of amusing.

nothing more, nothing less.


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## Z4good (Sep 14, 2012)

shekky said:


> "This thread is about the wealthy, not the middle class and poor."
> 
> _*no.*_ as the OP, i say that this thread is about rich people having enough passion for cycling that they strap cheap bike racks to their very expensive automobiles...and how i found it kind of amusing.
> 
> nothing more, nothing less.


Are you sure.  For some odd reason that simple (and funny) picture has touched people deep down in their souls, and they must express their frustrations in this thread. Politics in a mountain bike forum. Never a good thing.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Z4good said:


> Are you sure.  For some odd reason that simple (and funny) picture has touched people deep down in their souls, and they must express their frustrations in this thread. Politics in a mountain bike forum. Never a good thing.


HA!!! well said!

but the original intent was not political.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2012)

Ailuropoda said:


> This thread is about the wealthy, not the middle class and poor. I showed you how high taxes really are for the wealthy and used Greece as a good example of the effect of out-of-control government spending and a high taxes on a nation. It is easy and convenient to blame the rich for everything but this is just misdirection from your ruling elite to deflect attention from the true catastrophe brewing for the entire Western world. You cannot enrich a nation by impoverishing the productive sector and eating the rich might be emotionally satisfying but what will you do after you confiscate everyones's wealth?
> 
> The point is that if you tax the productive sector into oblivion there will be no wealth to tax and no freebies for anybody. Nobody is going to work or produce anything if they have to give ninety cents of every dollar they make to what they perceive as a bunch of lazy freeloaders. Very few people will work from the goodness of their heart. I don't dislike my job, for example, but I wouldn't do it for ten percent of what I currently make. It would just not be worth all the hassles.
> 
> Not paying taxes is illegal but when the tax rates rise to tyrannical levels it is not immoral and it is not stealing. We are supposed to be a people who have a government, not the other way around. The government is immoral and corrupt to the core as is everything and every institution it touches...which is practically everything. If you want to keep shoveling money into its gaping maw....well...what can I say.


I follow with great interest this topic. I work a lot and I pay a lot of taxes and I am interested in understanding what happens in other countries. I live in Italy and France, they are very similar countries about benefits and disadvantages.
You have written many important things, but I add something.
When you write "Nobody is going to work or produce anything if they have to give ninety cents of every dollar they make ..." you have to remember that a job is necessary, it is not a hobby ... And most people can not live without. Me too.
I believe that in every state the public sector, of course is important, but there are high risks of corruption and inefficiency.
You use Greece as an example. I can say something about France and Italy, than I will say something about your country of origin.
The current crisis is unprecedented in Italy but luxury is performed as it had never happened. Jaguar, Aston Martin, Porsche etc are becoming increasingly common. In Switzerland they do not know where to put the money of the Italians ...
The very rich French people escape in Belgium but in Florence the Jaguar and Bentley cars are more numerous than in Paris, but Florence is a small city!
What has happened? It happened that something is broken in the mechanism that regulates the life and relations between state and citizens. A certain type of people get rich easily, another type of people are afraid of the future... You know what I mean.
The institutions do not function properly, they always want more money to offer less and less services.
Companies do not grow, do not work properly.
The money or disappear into the pockets of the state or in other countries. So everyone is next to the risk of becoming poor. Very poor.
Lastly a small personal memoir about Greece, twenty years ago I think about.
I remember that I was astonished by the amount of Mercedes I saw in the streets. I never understood where the trick was.

* I apologize for my basic English


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

toscano said:


> When you write "Nobody is going to work or produce anything if they have to give ninety cents of every dollar they make ..." you have to remember that a job is necessary, it is not a hobby ... And most people can not live without.


Not in America. Here, if you are a lazy ass you can do nothing and suck off the people who do work hard and make money. If it wasn't for runaway welfare, we would be in pretty good shape.

Welfare State Grows by Nearly 19% Under Obama


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

This is what we are dealing with here:
Original Obamaphone Lady: Obama Voter Says Vote for Obama because he gives a free Phone - YouTube


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

shekky said:


> this thread has gone from better to bad to better to worse...let's talk about cars some more...would you use a trunk rack with this old caddy, or would you use a roof rack on the trunk lid?


I would love to beat run this car. Anybody else think that sounds like a good idea? On the plus side, I think I could toss my 29er in the trunk and not even remove the front wheel!


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## PerfectZero (Jul 22, 2010)

Life is too short to talk about politics rft:


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

PerfectZero said:


> Life is too short to talk about politics rft:


Life is to short not to talk about it!


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## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Life is to short not to talk about it!


You have hijacked the thread long enough now.
The OP even requested the thread get back on topic, but no one seems to respect his wishes.
Put simply... CAR & BIKE PICS or GTFO!


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

SV11 said:


> You have hijacked the thread long enough now.
> The OP even requested the thread get back on topic, but no one seems to respect his wishes.
> Put simply... CAR & BIKE PICS or GTFO!


Someone got their panties in a bind! Lol!


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## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

I still find it a bit interesting that you would ever want to strap a bike to a supercar. It makes more sense to me that if you have that kind of money you would be able to use a vehicle fit for the job better. That said, I think that those suction cup racks are probably the way to go if you're driving a lamborghini...


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## SV11 (Jan 2, 2011)

I think the suction cups are a great idea if you want a portable minimalist look, for any car.


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## shwinn8 (Feb 25, 2006)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> Someone got their panties in a bind! Lol!


....


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

SV11 said:


> I think the suction cups are a great idea if you want a portable minimalist look, for any car.


The Seasuckers are great. A little expensive though. They might have to impose a fee on us so the poor can afford them. The Seasucker Welfare Program.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

toscano said:


> I follow with great interest this topic. I work a lot and I pay a lot of taxes and I am interested in understanding what happens in other countries. I live in Italy and France, they are very similar countries about benefits and disadvantages.
> You have written many important things, but I add something.
> When you write "Nobody is going to work or produce anything if they have to give ninety cents of every dollar they make ..." you have to remember that a job is necessary, it is not a hobby ... And most people can not live without. Me too.
> I believe that in every state the public sector, of course is important, but there are high risks of corruption and inefficiency.
> ...


The Greeks know, or used to know, how to live despite the government and have always been able to prosper even in the face of ruinous taxation. Generally, Greece used to be a largely cash economy where a lot of the economic activity could be easily hidden. Unfortunately after 20 years of unrelenting socialism they have become no different than the majority of Europeans, completely helpless and trapped in no-productivity activities. my cousin has been in university for years pursuing a graduate degree at taxpayers expense that will gain her nothing and the pursuit of which is a means to stay out of the job market.

She took part in the anti-austerity protests (which are pro-goverment, not anti-goverment as they are mistakingly labeled) vigorously, is a committed communist, and is suited for exactly nothing except a make-believe job.

This is typical and for the first time since the Germans invaded seventy years ago, there are Greeks standing in soup lines. It is not the fault of the rich.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Ailuropoda said:


> The Greeks know, or used to know, how to live despite the government and have always been able to prosper even in the face of ruinous taxation. Generally, Greece used to be a largely cash economy where a lot of the economic activity could be easily hidden. Unfortunately after 20 years of unrelenting socialism they have become no different than the majority of Europeans, completely helpless and trapped in no-productivity activities. my cousin has been in university for years pursuing a graduate degree at taxpayers expense that will gain her nothing and the pursuit of which is a means to stay out of the job market.
> 
> She took part in the anti-austerity protests (which are pro-goverment, not anti-goverment as they are mistakingly labeled) vigorously, is a committed communist, and is suited for exactly nothing except a make-believe job.
> 
> This is typical and for the first time since the Germans invaded seventy years ago, there are Greeks standing in soup lines. It is not the fault of the rich.


And the USA is about 5 years behind.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> And the USA is about 5 years behind.


Care to make a bet on that, doomsayer?


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

SS Hack said:


> Care to make a bet on that, doomsayer?


I'm not into illegal betting. Besides, they would find a way to impose a tax and/or fee on my winnings.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> I'm not into illegal betting. Besides, they would find a way to impose a tax and/or fee on my winnings.


----------



## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> I'm not into illegal betting. Besides, they would find a way to impose a tax and/or fee on my winnings.


I was thinking more like a post admitting how wrong you were when we don't turin into Greece the way you've predicted.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

SS Hack said:


> I was thinking more like a post admitting how wrong you were when we don't turin into Greece the way you've predicted.


Well, you tell me, what's going to change? We are already beyond the point of no return. And our current administration isn't doing anything to make it better. In fact they are, in my opinion, by design, making it worse.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

sigh...


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Let's stop. Let's just revisit in 5 years to see if we've turned in lazy dirty Greeks.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

ss hack said:


> let's stop. Let's just revisit in 5 years to see if we've turned in lazy dirty greeks.


ok.


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

Has anyone else read Atlas Shrugged? There are amazing similarities to the current situation across the globe.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Salespunk said:


> Has anyone else read Atlas Shrugged? There are amazing similarities to the current situation across the globe.


No. I read Peter Pan when I was kid though. I'll bet the Bentley is just the guys bike beater, wouldn't want to scratch the Roll's ya know.


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

AZ.MTNS said:


> I'll bet the Bentley is just the guys bike beater, wouldn't want to scratch the Roll's ya know.


You may be onto something there.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

Salespunk said:


> Has anyone else read Atlas Shrugged? There are amazing similarities to the current situation across the globe.


Hey, does your username mean Sales punk or Sale spunk?


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## shwinn8 (Feb 25, 2006)

Mountain Cycle Shawn said:


> I'm not into illegal betting. Besides, they would find a way to impose a tax and/or fee on my winnings.


loser shaves his head!!! unless he's bald then you have to get a tattoo


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

mtbnozpikr said:


> You may be onto something there.


I always thought the Bentley was just a badge engineered RR?


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## klowe8828 (Dec 13, 2012)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Any self respecting MTBers bike costs more than their car, I want to see what cost more than the Bentley.


I'm glad that i'm in the right club then. Someone was parked close to me the other day, and when their kid went to get out of the back seat, I heard the parent say "dont hit that bike"...nevermind the possibility of bashing their door into my car.


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

SS Hack said:


> I always thought the Bentley was just a badge engineered RR?


It definitely does look similar to a Phantom.


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## Bill in Houston (Nov 26, 2011)

SS Hack said:


> I always thought the Bentley was just a badge engineered RR?


afaik you are correct.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Bill in Houston said:


> afaik you are correct.


"Badge engineering
After World War II production of Rolls-Royce and Bentley cars was moved to an ex-wartime engine factory in Crewe, Cheshire and standard-steel Bentleys were slightly lower priced Rolls-Royces without the Rolls' distinctive square-shouldered grille."

Bentley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Bentlys are usually much higher performance, much stiffer suspension, more power, better handling, etc. That's always been the draw. Usually RR if you're going to be driven and want ultimate comfort, and Bently if you're going to drive yourself and want luxury and performance.


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## Salespunk (Sep 15, 2005)

Bentley and Rolls are two completely different companies now. Bentley was bought by VW and they thought they were getting Rolls as well, but the attorneys did not do their due diligence. It was one of the great corporate ripoffs of all time Rolls sold them the Bentley name and manufacturing facility, but not the rights or designs for the Rolls name. Rolls Royce manufacturing then sold the rights to the Rolls auto name and designs to BMW which is who now manufactures the cars. 

In other words, there is no more badge engineering. BMW owns Rolls and VW owns Bentley.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

Salespunk said:


> Bentley and Rolls are two completely different companies now. Bentley was bought by VW and they thought they were getting Rolls as well, but the attorneys did not do their due diligence. It was one of the great corporate ripoffs of all time Rolls sold them the Bentley name and manufacturing facility, but not the rights or designs for the Rolls name. Rolls Royce manufacturing then sold the rights to the Rolls auto name and designs to BMW which is who now manufactures the cars.
> 
> In other words, there is no more badge engineering. BMW owns Rolls and VW owns Bentley.


But they still have the worst electrical systems this side of Jag, right? I know VW is in the running too ...


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Volkswagen Phaeton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Phaeton's platform, the Volkswagen Group D1 platform, is shared with the Bentley Continental GT and Bentley Continental Flying Spur."


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

shekky said:


> Volkswagen Phaeton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> "The Phaeton's platform, the Volkswagen Group D1 platform, is shared with the Bentley Continental GT and Bentley Continental Flying Spur."


So, 200k+ for a VW? Wow, can I have "tool" tattooed on my forehead too?


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

SS Hack said:


> But they still have the worst electrical systems this side of Jag, right? I know VW is in the running too ...


They don't call Lucas the "Prince of Darkness" for nothing.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

AZ.MTNS said:


> They don't call Lucas the "Prince of Darkness" for nothing.


When I was a kid we had a 1967 Jag, nice car to drive if/when it started. Lucas electrical, two small gas tanks, lots of leather seals everywhere, crazy inboard rear disk brakes. It did have an independent rear rear end and overhead cams - have Americans invented these two features yet?


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

SS Hack said:


> So, 200k+ for a VW? Wow, can I have "tool" tattooed on my forehead too?


the VW phaeton did not exactly fly off the lots...:smallviolin:


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

SS Hack said:


> When I was a kid we had a 1967 Jag, nice car to drive if/when it started. Lucas electrical, two small gas tanks, lots of leather seals everywhere, crazy inboard rear disk brakes. It did have an independent rear rear end and overhead cams - have Americans invented these two features yet?


IRS is nothing new, Corvettes (1963) have had them for decades and there are plenty of American cars with overhead cams (Pontiac in 1966). None however with the worst electrical system ever inflicted on man though.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

AZ.MTNS said:


> IRS is nothing new, Corvettes (1963) have had them for decades and there are plenty of American cars with overhead cams (Pontiac in 1966). None however with the worst electrical system ever inflicted on man though.


I was kidding a bit as American companies are very slow adopters, but I'd rather have a classic American car any day over the Jag.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

I don't know, I'd love to have an XKE Roadster. One of the most beautiful cars ever made imo.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

AZ.MTNS said:


> I don't know, I'd love to have an XKE Roadster. One of the most beautiful cars ever made imo.


I agree, perhaps the most beautiful ... when they start.


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## mtbnozpikr (Sep 1, 2008)

shekky said:


> Volkswagen Phaeton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> "The Phaeton's platform, the Volkswagen Group D1 platform, is shared with the Bentley Continental GT and Bentley Continental Flying Spur."


I remember when the Phaeton came out because of the W12. Wikipedia claims it is still in production but I wonder how many people have ever even seen one, at least in the U.S.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

AZ.MTNS said:


> I don't know, I'd love to have an XKE Roadster. One of the most beautiful cars ever made imo.


that and the porsche 917. IMHO...


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

mtbnozpikr said:


> I remember when the Phaeton came out because of the W12. Wikipedia claims it is still in production but I wonder how many people have ever even seen one, at least in the U.S.


i've seen a phaeton in san francisco. they're indistinguishable from any other VW until you take a harder look at them.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

shekky said:


> i've seen a phaeton in san francisco. they're indistinguishable from any other VW until you take a harder look at them.


Me too and they're just about as ugly as a new large MB, I might add. New Golf looks better and in GTI form would be more fun too.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

SS Hack said:


> Me too and they're just about as ugly as a new large MB, I might add. New Golf looks better and in GTI form would be more fun too.


call me a retro-freak but give me the immaculately restored '69 or '70 imperial with ALL the bells and whistles...


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

shekky said:


> call me a retro-freak but give me the immaculately restored '69 or '70 imperial with ALL the bells and whistles...


I'm a bit of a retro freak too, even preferring old BMWs and classic MBs over the stuff they offer now. The new stuff often lacks any personally.


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## nailtrail (Jul 13, 2011)

im a sitting but a few minutes from where the op took the shot. looks like its in the sunset. im at 19th and ocean lol


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## DH40 (Jan 14, 2004)

Speaking of richness and 917s and sitting.....these are $6500

crap see next....


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## DH40 (Jan 14, 2004)

Richness + 917 + sitting.


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## 11 Bravo (Mar 12, 2004)

AZ.MTNS said:


> They don't call Lucas the "Prince of Darkness" for nothing.


My son mechanics in an import auto specialty shop. He tells me the reason they drink warm beer in England is because Lucas did the wiring for all the beer coolers.


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## wmac (Sep 29, 2010)

Holy shiz I can't believe I unsubcribed from this thread.


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## DH40 (Jan 14, 2004)

*Yee*



highdelll said:


> And can't afford bikes (it's empty)
> 
> Man, the cost of bikes is too damn high - even for rich people apparently


RIGHT ON! THIS GUY ^^^^^ :thumbsup:
2 DAMN HIGH!


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

As an alleged 'hippie/lefty/commie/liberal' I guess I should subscribe to the view that nobody should have a car like this, but seriously WTF?!? What the hell is wrong with a) Someone HAVING a car like this; b) Someone putting a bike rack on it so they can take a bike somewhere...? I cannot believe the pantie twisting going on about all of it! BFD...

By the way, I found this on the subject of Fagerlin, and found it amusing... (apologies if it is something that has been posted/read before, wouldn't be the first time this happened):

_We open on a cozy dining room in a well-appointed house in northern California. The Fagerlin family sits down to an abundant dinner of roast chicken, steamed brown rice, mixed veggies and a baguette of designer bread. A bottle of fine Napa wine finishes off the bounty.

Mrs. Fagerlin (to Pete): "Honey, would you like a leg or a breast?"

Pete: "are we talking about the chicken?"

(insert laughter)

Mrs. Fagerlin: "Honey! Not in front of Petey Jr.!"

the Fagerlins all dine on their dinner and beverages...

Mrs. Fagerlin: "So how was work today honey?"

Pete: "Well, it was going ok until Adam's dog died"

Petey Jr.: "I like doggies!"

Mrs. Fagerlin: "Oh I'm so sorry, have I met Adam?"

Pete: "No, you haven't. He, um, posts on MTBR"

Mrs. Fagerlin: "what's MTBR?"

Pete: "It's a message board on the internet for cyclists, but this nimrod thought he could use it as a substitute for real friends and family, it had NOTHING to do with bikes. Nothing."

Mrs. Fagerlin: "oh, but you know him from riding?"

Pete: "Um, no, we've never met"

Petey Jr.: "Why did the doggie have to die, daddy?"

Pete: "That's not important kid. What is important is that these lame, sniveling newbies don't understand what true cycling passion is all about."

Mrs. Fagerlin: "Please pass the chic....."

Pete: "HANG ON LADY! So then 'Singletrack' makes some comment about cars and man I put him right in his place by telling him that it's WHO posts that matters. If it's the owner of the site, then it's cool, so then I call him a 'D!ck'.

Mrs. Fagerlin: "Honey, your langua....."

Pete: "Quiet!" So then 'ronny' snipes at me and BAM! I call him an a$$hole and move on to the next loser. Who wants some? I guess it's Soupboy, who I reduce to tears by calling him 'Soupchild'. BOOYA! Now I'm hitting my stride - it's beautiful! I'm untouchable! I dispatch SDtrailblazer with a swift "LOL" and "Boo Hoo", LocoMan chimes in and I take him out with a "ROTFLMAO", and then..."

Petey Jr.: "Daddy what's "ROTFL..."

Pete: "eat your chicken, junior"

we cut to Mrs. Fagerlin who is obviously uncomfortable and is thinking about how to get out of the situation that's developing at the table.

Pete: "Well looky here, if it isn't Donkey, asking to step into the House of Pain...."

Mrs. Fagerlin: "Petey, come with mommy for a minute to the bathroom, you need to blow your nose"

Petey Jr. "ok mommy"

Pete continues to boast of his debate victories as Mrs. Fagerlin and Petey Jr. now make a mad dash for the garage. Pete hears the engine of his Porsche rev up and races to see what's going on.

Petey Jr.: "Where are we going mommy? Where's daddy?"

Mrs. Fagerlin: "Daddy isn't feeling too well right now so we're going to spend some time with grandma"

Just then Pete bursts into the garage, nostrils flared and eyes bulging.

Mrs. Fagerlin: "Jesus! Petey lock your door!"

Petey Jr. (crying): "what's wrong with daddy, why does he look like that?"

Mrs. Fagerlin: "sometimes grown-ups lose track of their priorities honey, daddy needs help."

Mrs. Fagerlin races the Porsche down the street and out of the nice, otherwise quiet neighborhood. We cut to Pete standing in the driveway, shouting "BUT THEY'RE ALL INFERIOR A$$HOLES!!!!!! AND THEY CAN'T SPELL......"

and we disolve to black.

stay tuned for scenes from next week's episode where Pete breaks into the office at the mental ward to log on to MTBR....

_


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## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Oh, and while on the subject of vehicle electrics, and Lucas in particular, yes they were awful, but probably not a lot more awful than the alternatives at the time... Having owned both old Brit bikes from the 60s, and Italian bikes from the 70s, I have to say I have junked probably more Italian electrical components over the years...


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## mdlfcrsis (Jan 3, 2013)

Car people think my car sucks
Bike people think my bike sucks
I am a garbage person


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## wmac (Sep 29, 2010)

mdlfcrsis said:


> Car people think my car sucks
> Bike people think my bike sucks
> I am a garbage person


Your garbage sucks 

Those Car people suck
Those Bike people suck


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## Twostrokemoto (Jan 10, 2013)

11 bravo said:


> my son mechanics in an import auto specialty shop. He tells me the reason they drink warm beer in england is because lucas did the wiring for all the beer coolers.:d


lol


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## mdlfcrsis (Jan 3, 2013)

wmac said:


> Your garbage sucks
> 
> Truly a haunting commentary on the existential crisis facing a culture in decline.
> 
> "pro illis, de sugere, nos Salutant vos"


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

a bentley without a bike rack just for sh!ts and giggles...


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

shekky said:


> a bentley without a bike rack just for sh!ts and giggles...


Beautiful, much better looking than their new models to me.


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## bigbadwulff (Jan 18, 2012)

Who cares? They ride. I could care what someone makes. It's their business, not mine nor anyone else's!


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

bigbadwulff said:


> Who cares? They ride. I could care what someone makes. It's their business, not mine nor anyone else's!


You are really outdated; America is all about trying to force everyone to like the same things nowadays.


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## stencil (Nov 23, 2012)

SS Hack said:


> You are really outdated; America is all about trying to force everyone to like the same things nowadays.


And hating on rich people.


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## SS Hack (Jan 20, 2012)

stencil said:


> And hating on rich people.


Or liberals, poor, semi-rich, middle class, white, black, in between, or what have you. At least everyone has someone to hate.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

i cannot believe the hate i've generated by posting an innocuous photo. lighten up, people.


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## uneek78 (Dec 10, 2012)

OO7 said:


> So one day I'm at a major trailhead in SoCal with a fellow MTBR member and we're waiting for a couple folks to show up. As we are waiting, a Bentley coupe pulls up and parks next to me. A middle aged man who was CLEARLY not in what would be described as "prime physical shape" gets out of the car, wearing a full shop kit (i.e., lycra shorts, jersey, etc. - it was not pretty) and walks to the back of the car, pulls his shoes out of the trunk and just waits. My buddy and I exchange glances and are like WTF? Where's this dude's bike?
> 
> A few moments later, another car pulls up, a man in a suit gets out, opens the trunk and pulls out a CF Niner (top of the line rig), hands it to Bentley man, says he'll be back in a couple hours and takes off.
> 
> Not kidding.


Now that's gangsta!!!!!! LOL!!!!!! Man I gotta win the lottery. Guess I gotta play first.


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## John Kuhl (Dec 10, 2007)

So much hate and so little love.


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## Mountain Cycle Shawn (Jan 19, 2004)

I love all you guys!! :blush:


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Bullsh!t.


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