# Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT)



## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

So how many of my fellow riders are on TRT?

I have been on TRT four years and it has changed my life as my levels were crashing low before treatment.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

I am taking androgel right now. I am not taking any other testosterone. androgel needs to be taken regularly to feel great.


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Picard said:


> I am taking androgel right now. I am not taking any other testosterone. androgel needs to be taken regularly to feel great.


Injections for me. The gel costs too much as I can buy a vial that lasts 12 weeks for $80....plus syringes and needles which are very inexpensive.

Does your insurance cover the cost of Androgel or do you pay a lot out of pocket?


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

how does injection work? how many syringes is in 1 prescription?


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Picard said:


> how does injection work? how many syringes is in 1 prescription?


I buy the vial of testosterone (test) at the pharmacy and purchase needles and syringes online like at Amazon, MedSupply, AndroUSA or GPZ.com.

One thing about the gel, only a small percentage is actually absorbed as where injection is mostly utilized.

Your doctor would probably want to start all over if you were to switch and get lab results to confirm which dose of injectable test is working correctly.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

do you need to go to doctor to get injection?

I have to ask my doctor about injection.


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Picard said:


> do you need to go to doctor to get injection?
> 
> I have to ask my doctor about injection.


No, I administer my own injections. I take them twice a week to keep blood levels even throughout the week.

Lots of different opinions by doctors on what they are willing to do. Some don't care if you do injections others want nothing to do with it, some will let you take injections if their nurse administers the shot.

I am on the most economical and effective plan as the gel I was not interested in based on cost. I think if I bought the gel today it would be over $560 today as that is what I would have paids years ago.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

how long does injection last?
do you need to carry along doctor note in case cops ask you about injection?

how many injection do you use a month?


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Picard said:


> how long does injection last?
> do you need to carry along doctor note in case cops ask you about injection?
> 
> how many injection do you use a month?


Some doctors will have you take one shot once a week but for me I inject twice a week. So an injection can last from 3.5-7 days and that equals 4-8 shots a month.

I guess you should take prescription paperwork with you if you travel a lot but not been an issue for me.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

if you forget an injection a few days, would it cause health problem


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Picard said:


> if you forget an injection a few days, would it cause health problem


No, once blood levels are raised you should be fine missing a couple of days. I have forgotten before and no ill effects. :thumbsup:


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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

I self-inject testosterone once per week. Been using it for 2 - 3 years now. Feel better than before and lost some weight and 3 inches waist size. Age 71. I recommend it, FWIW.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

How is your energy level after taking injection for 2 months? Do feel young again? Do you regain more energy? 

Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

elder_mtber said:


> I self-inject testosterone once per week. Been using it for 2 - 3 years now. Feel better than before and lost some weight and 3 inches waist size. Age 71. I recommend it, FWIW.


Yes, more energy, fat loss and my cognition improved.


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Picard said:


> How is your energy level after taking injection for 2 months? Do feel young again? Do you regain more energy?
> 
> Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk


Yes, I felt the effects after one month. I was feeling really run down and loss of interest in activities. In my early 50s I just racked it up to getting older but after lab test my test levels were really low.


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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

Picard - my experience is just like GeoDon's. Except I started in my upper 60's.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

This is very interesting to me, but I'd like to get some very specific details.

I was on injections every other week. I think my doctor is too conservative with dosages. I got some benefits, but not life changing.

So, the details I am really interested in are:


What was your T level before injections?
After injections?
How often do you inject?
Where do you inject?
What size needle are you injecting with?
What exactly are you injecting? (brand name)
What dosage are you injecting?



The stuff I was injecting (I need to get the name of it) was thick like maple syrup. I had to use a 21guage needle. And I only injected every other week.

I'm going back to the doctor soon for a follow up. So any info is appreciated.


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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

*Testo questions*

What was your T level before injections? 90 - 220 ng/dL
After injections? 450 ng/dL
How often do you inject? Once per week
Where do you inject? Alternate left and right legs into the quad
What size needle are you injecting with? 23 g
What exactly are you injecting? (brand name)Watson Testosterone Cypionate 2000mg/10mL (200mg/mL)
What dosage are you injecting? 0.5cc According to my calculation this dose is 100mg per injection


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

elder_mtber said:


> What was your T level before injections? 90 - 220 ng/dL
> After injections? 450 ng/dL
> How often do you inject? Once per week
> Where do you inject? Alternate left and right legs into the quad
> ...


I appreciate the info. This is a different brand than I was using. I couldn't even get my stuff through a 23guage needle. I had problems with a 21. Maybe I should be looking at a different brand.


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

jsnowut said:


> Killed my friend at 52. Previously while supplementing he never looked better, healthier and happier. It's called getting old - deal with it or roll the dice.
> 
> Cheers!


That's a huge turd to toss into the punch bowl with no context or details. Think I'll just ignore this and confer with my doctor instead.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

jsnowut said:


> Killed my friend at 52. Previously while supplementing he never looked better, healthier and happier. It's called getting old - deal with it or roll the dice.
> 
> Cheers!


Worthless post.


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## jsnowut (Jan 5, 2010)

Fair criticisms. Just sharing my limited experience. My friend was under the care of a very good doctor the whole time he was supplementing. I was with him when he died doing what we all love to do. 

Just FYI. 

carry on and cheers again!


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## Jim_bo (Jul 31, 2011)

jsnowut said:


> Fair criticisms. Just sharing my limited experience. My friend was under the care of a very good doctor the whole time he was supplementing. I was with him when he died doing what we all love to do.
> 
> Just FYI.
> 
> carry on and cheers again!


I'm sorry for your loss, but from the details you've provided, your friend could have died from a bee sting, or hereditary heart disease, or about a million other things. There's no need to try to create a scare about testosterone replacement therapy and spontaneous deaths without some data that shows a link.

Remember, correlation does not prove causation.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

So what killed him? Any proof it had anything to with TRT? Sorry you lost your friend but don't jump into a conversation about something, claim it killed your friend, then leave without providing any information or proof. How do we know that your friend was on TRT but died after falling off a cliff?


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

jsnowut said:


> Fair criticisms. Just sharing my limited experience. *My friend was under the care of a very good doctor *the whole time he was supplementing. I was with him when he died doing what we all love to do.
> 
> Just FYI.
> 
> carry on and cheers again!


Could not be that good of a doctor if he killed your friend.


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Jim_bo said:


> This is very interesting to me, but I'd like to get some very specific details.
> 
> I was on injections every other week. I think my doctor is too conservative with dosages. I got some benefits, but not life changing.
> 
> ...


````
Additional note regarding frequency of injections, cypionate and enanthate both have approximately 3.5-4 day half life, getting an injection every other week is a roller coaster ride.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Nubster said:


> So what killed him? Any proof it had anything to with TRT? Sorry you lost your friend but don't jump into a conversation about something, claim it killed your friend, then leave without providing any information or proof. How do we know that your friend was on TRT but died after falling off a cliff?


Is it possible that he contracted a horrendous STD after obtaining some solid, long-lasting wood?


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Crankout said:


> Is it possible that he contracted a horrendous STD after obtaining some solid, long-lasting wood?


Quite possible.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

The more often you inject the more stable you are, and the less estrogen conversion will happen. Twice a week is optional. Once every 2 weeks is terrible. If your doctor won let you do it yourself. Or insist on infrequent shots. Find another doctor.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

My doctor won't prescribe testosterone injection but he gave me gel 

Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Cerberus75 said:


> The more often you inject the more stable you are, and the less estrogen conversion will happen. Twice a week is optional. Once every 2 weeks is terrible. If your doctor won let you do it yourself. Or insist on infrequent shots. Find another doctor.


I'm assuming this is all based on medical need vs a desire to juice up?


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Crankout said:


> I'm assuming this is all based on medical need vs a desire to juice up?


Yes, testosterone that would be given is attached to an ester. This gives it a time released effect. But half of the testosterone will be released within the first 48hours. So if the doctor wants give you the shot every 2 weeks than for the first 4 days you're going to have muchildren higher than normal levels, which will be converted into estrogen. Then by the end of 2 weeks you have low levels of test aND high estrogen. Most feel worse than when the started.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Picard said:


> My doctor won't prescribe testosterone injection but he gave me gel
> 
> Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk


Gel is fine, if you rotate where you put it...and if you understand that the rate of absorbtion isn't the best


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

Cerberus75 said:


> Gel is fine, if you rotate where you put it...and if you understand that the rate of absorbtion isn't the best


With gel you also have to be careful about the possibility the hormone could be transferred to other individuals via skin contact. Personally if a doc would only prescribe gel, I'd find another doc. I like my usual family doc for most things, but for this I went to one who specializes in bio-identical HRT.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

TheBaldBlur said:


> With gel you also have to be careful about the possibility the hormone could be transferred to other individuals via skin contact. Personally if a doc would only prescribe gel, I'd find another doc. I like my usual family doc for most things, but for this I went to one who specializes in bio-identical HRT.


Yes, I agree. And finding a doctor that goes by how you feel, vs if you're in range is important as well.


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Picard said:


> My doctor won't prescribe testosterone injection but he gave me gel
> 
> Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk


Gel can be hit or miss as some guys do not do well on the gel. From what I have read free testosterone can be low even though total testosterone is at prefered levels.

If you feel good on the gel then no issues.


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Cerberus75 said:


> Yes, I agree. And finding a doctor that goes by how you feel, vs if you're in range is important as well.


This is 100% correct. I am a testosterone sponge at 250mg a week. I do not know what that says about me but anything less and I do not feel as good.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

GeoDon said:


> This is 100% correct. I am a testosterone sponge at 250mg a week. I do not know what that says about me but anything less and I do not feel as good.


Yeah, I noticed your post. Most doctors won't go over 150 a week you're lucky. My levels are 800- 900 at 175mg a week. This is where I feel best.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

Cerberus75 said:


> Yes, I agree. And finding a doctor that goes by how you feel, vs if you're in range is important as well.


Exactly! Thanks for adding that as I meant to do so. My doc tested me and shrugged his shoulders because I was "in range". The HRT specialist put that "range" in context and has been a big help to me.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

jsnowut said:


> Killed my friend at 52. Previously while supplementing he never looked better, healthier and happier. It's called getting old - deal with it or roll the dice.
> 
> Cheers!


It's worth mentioning that low testosterone is not going to speed your death, however, adding testosterone may increase risks for heart disease, prostate cancer, BPH, breast cancer, sleep apnea, stroke, etc...

There is no such thing as a magic bullet. All things come with a price tag.

My experience is mostly with young to middle aged males, many of whom struggled with agitation, anger, and anxiety after starting TRT.

In general, risk if harm increases with the number of risk factors, age, and the dose.

A male taking TRT is not much different from a woman taking ERT.

As Jsnowut suggested, good luck.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Yes, there are risk with low test as well. But if your friend was in good car with his doctor. This would mean he would have had estrogen control and monitoring lipids, blood pressure and red blood cell count. If his doctor did this, than your friends death was sad, but may be unrelated.

I have a friend that died from liver cancer, (technically rejection of transplant) his new doctor believe that the reluctance to put him on HRT kept him estrogen dominant too long and feed the cancer.


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## pitdaddy (Aug 6, 2013)

Why?

I made a big change in my lifestyle. Mainly what I eat, sleep habits, & getting off the couch. Replaced the Oreo Doublestuffs with strawberries, apples, & more fruit. Stopped buying ready made food from the freezer section and ate fresh ingredients. Sleep 7 hours a night instead of 5. Started riding a bike, then hitting the gym a couple times a week.

Didn't take long- maybe 2-3 months and I felt like a younger man! But doctors & pharmaceutical companies will argue with you. They will go broke depending on me to support them.

My back no longer aches as long as I keep up with the core exercises. Knees started feeling a little sore when I switched from a 26" wheel bike to 29"

Pardon me if you think I'm trying to hijack this thread. That's not my intentions.


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> It's worth mentioning that low testosterone is not going to speed your death, however, adding testosterone may increase risks for *heart disease, prostate cancer, BPH, breast cancer, sleep apnea, stroke, etc...*
> Monitoring a person on TRT can help avoid these issues. There are guys that are low-T that are not in good physical condition or have a pre-existing condition that warrant not getting the treatment.
> There is no such thing as a magic bullet. All things come with a price tag.
> True!
> ...


...


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

pitdaddy said:


> Why?
> 
> I made a big change in my lifestyle. Mainly what I eat, sleep habits, & getting off the couch. Replaced the Oreo Doublestuffs with strawberries, apples, & more fruit. Stopped buying ready made food from the freezer section and ate fresh ingredients. Sleep 7 hours a night instead of 5. Started riding a bike, then hitting the gym a couple times a week.
> 
> ...


Do you know your testosterone levels?

If they are in a healthy range then I totally agree. But until you are low-T I don't think you will have the same opinion.


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## pitdaddy (Aug 6, 2013)

I don't know my testosterone levels. I also don't have much faith in doctors. Pardon me for coming across cynical or pessimistic. That's not my intentions. Guess I'm just curious as to why one would go for testosterone injections, etc. instead of seeking an easier way to up one's levels.

My hearing is bad in my right ear, my vision is poor without contacts or glasses, I'm balding, etc.. Physically I can say I'm far from perfect.

Please go on with your story. I do appreciate learning from others.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

pitdaddy said:


> I don't know my testosterone levels. I also don't have much faith in doctors. Pardon me for coming across cynical or pessimistic. That's not my intentions. Guess I'm just curious as to why one would go for testosterone injections, etc. instead of seeking an easier way to up one's levels.
> 
> My hearing is bad in my right ear, my vision is poor without contacts or glasses, I'm balding, etc.. Physically I can say I'm far from perfect.
> 
> Please go on with your story. I do appreciate learning from others.


I also don't put much faith in doctors. To be honest, Male TRT is pretty low on the list of priorities in the medical community. Many men are told to deal with it, it's part of getting old....because you can't patent a hormone so there's little money to be made.

Men's testosterone levels are falling with each generation. For a lot of reasons we cannot control. When I was younger I knew men that worked hard, stayed fit, and still interested in sex at 80yrs old. This is becoming rare. Cancer thives in a estrogen dominate environment. TRT isn't a reason not to eat and exercise well. But it will help you use those tools to recover if yours are low.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

pitdaddy said:


> Why?
> 
> I made a big change in my lifestyle. Mainly what I eat, sleep habits, & getting off the couch. Replaced the Oreo Doublestuffs with strawberries, apples, & more fruit. Stopped buying ready made food from the freezer section and ate fresh ingredients. Sleep 7 hours a night instead of 5. Started riding a bike, then hitting the gym a couple times a week.
> 
> ...


I think that you were just treating your body like crap. A lot of guys here do all those things already. Stop Eating cookies and frozen dinners and sitting on the couch all day, thank you doctor.


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## pitdaddy (Aug 6, 2013)

sfgiantsfan said:


> I think that you were just treating your body like crap. A lot of guys here do all those things already. Stop Eating cookies and frozen dinners and sitting on the couch all day, thank you doctor.


You are correct! And instead of taking a pill and continuing down the wrong path I made a simple lifestyle change.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

... and you have more faith in the internet and uneducated opinions? Really?

I find it interesting how often people thnk that medical providers are somehow getting rich on the medications they prescribe. So let me illustrate a providers perspective:

A patient comes in, they have multiple medical conditions, they take a lot of medications, I have 3-4 minutes to talk with them, another couple minutues for chart review, a couple minutes for assessment, and now I'm over the time alloted to treat the patient, so I will chart after my clinical hours and work late for the same pay.

The average provider is working 10 to 12 hours a day, but only sees patients 6-8 hours a day; the overage is unpaid charting, consults, research, and chart review.

So, do I want to increase the number of medications and the complexity with which I treat this patient? HELL NO!

My goal as a medical provider is to do the least possible to keep that person safe, which means pushing lifestyle solutions, minimizing polypharmacy, and resisting the patient's constant requests to give them the magic bullet.

You think you, as a patient, that you are cycnical, you should see if from the provider's perspective!

I would love it if all of my patients would lead healthy lives, what a joy it would be to only treat conditions that were not resolved with health living, now that would be a true miracle!

People, there is no magic bullet, all things come with a price.

My only suggestion to those seeking the magic elixir that will relieve you of your well earned old age woes is to beware of people bearing gifts. If it seems to good to be true, it probably is.

I'm a medical provider, I can get any medication I want, but I do not use testosterone, and my T is not high.

Just think about it.



pitdaddy said:


> I don't know my testosterone levels. I also don't have much faith in doctors. Pardon me for coming across cynical or pessimistic. That's not my intentions. Guess I'm just curious as to why one would go for testosterone injections, etc. instead of seeking an easier way to up one's levels.
> 
> My hearing is bad in my right ear, my vision is poor without contacts or glasses, I'm balding, etc.. Physically I can say I'm far from perfect.
> 
> Please go on with your story. I do appreciate learning from others.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

.....


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## pitdaddy (Aug 6, 2013)

Nurse Ben said:


> ... and you have more faith in the internet and uneducated opinions? Really?
> 
> *No.*
> 
> ...


*Thank you for your input. I would love to visit with you sometime. There are a lot of things you and I would agree on when it comes to medicine & health. It's the business side of how health care is run that raises my blood pressure.*


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Nurse Ben said:


> ... and you have more faith in the internet and uneducated opinions? Really?
> 
> I find it interesting how often people thnk that medical providers are somehow getting rich on the medications they prescribe. So let me illustrate a providers perspective:
> 
> ...


I agree 100% with everything you said, not one argument and that is based on my experience with the health professionals I have dealt with over the years.

I feel healthcare providers are top notch and have nothing negative to say. But the administrative side sucks. Both from the medical and insurance side so much money is wasted on bureaucracy I wonder how much money is actually spent on the service and how much goes to indirect or overhead expenses.

And don't get me started on the cost of frivolous lawsuits.

As to people that rail against medicine, I find it funny, odd and irritating how with modern medicine we live longer lives DESPITE that fact we are the fattest, eating the worst and most sedentary ever in history. Yet people talk crap about the very medicine that keeps us living.

In other words, we try and kill ourselves while modern medicine keeps us living longer and yet complain about it!

SMH!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

The biggest time suck for a provider is charting, which has increased exponentially with use of electronic medical records.

Insurance companies and Medicaid/Medicare add more and more requirements for specificity to approve payment for services; not for medications.

Ten years ago I charted with paper and pen, very simple note taking. Most of my time was spent on patient care. 

I'm fortunate to work in an ED styled setting, I can dictate, my billing is simple, I can spend most of my time with the patients. My wife is in out patient, she's stuck with the "new medical model".

In order for medical care to be efficient, we need a universal system, tiered/triaged, that provides basic health care to all, no questions asked.

This system would need to be streamlined so providers can work more and chart less. Providers need to be free of the "proof" of appropriate treatment.

We are incredibly short on medical providers, burn out is high, suicide is high, substance abuse is high. Some of the brightest folks choose medicine, I can't tell you how many I've met who wish they'd chosen differently.

It's a tough gig.

I love my job, but what I do after work is what keeps me sane... mountain biking!


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## Cuyuna (May 14, 2017)

I do 200mg cypionate every two weeks. My wife's a nurse and is the one who shoots me up. I was only marginally low, age 66, but I needed to build muscle mass after bilateral knee replacement surgery. Works well for me, levels work out fine.

The most recent studies have shown no link between TRT and heart disease or MI risk, including men 65 and older, and at least two have shown a _decreased_ risk. Likewise, no evidence to support an increased risk of prostate cancer. Data on exacerbating an _existing_ prostate cancer is not clear. BPH as a result of TRT is unlikely. Sleep apnea can be a problem in some men, but low testosterone can contribute to or cause sleep apnea too.

Aggressive behavior and anxiety are rare, even in younger males, unless the dosing is supratherapeutic.

Breast cancer? Any link is pretty much speculative and theoretical. No good evidence, but there are a few case reports. Jury is still out on male breast cancer risk with TRT.

TRT for appropriate indications and with appropriate monitoring, based on what we know so far, probably does far more good than harm, if it does any harm at all.


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## corwin1968 (Oct 8, 2011)

Jim_bo said:


> This is very interesting to me, but I'd like to get some very specific details.
> 
> I was on injections every other week. I think my doctor is too conservative with dosages. I got some benefits, but not life changing.
> 
> ...


I'll add my two cents:


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## srwatters (Sep 20, 2017)

I'm 56 years old and currently on my second round of Bio-TE pellets. My testosterone levels were 266 total and 39 free pre-implant. The pellets last around 6 months for me and slowly return the levels down to around 300 from a peak of 1260. My doctor is also monitoring my Estradiol and PSA levels. All appears normal and honestly I can say I've had little to no side effects. Positive effects however are very substantial. Aside from generally feeling much more energy, mental clarity is really enhanced. Prior to treatments, I would sometimes struggle pulling things out of the memory bank. I knew they were there, and given time, could recall what I was searching for. Post treatments, that has completely disappeared.

I monitor BP and resting heart rate regularly and have seen a slight increase in resting heart rate (from high 50's to low 60's) but a fairly significant lowering of BP from 130/80 down to 110/70. Cholesterol levels went from 185+ down to 155. I donate blood a couple of times a year and have no increase in Hematocrit levels. Another huge plus is body composition. My weight has stayed level, but I've lost two to three inches from my waist and hips and gained upper and lower body muscle.

I swim two to three days a week, bike two, and run one or two. I don't lift weights at all. So far I'm very happy with my results. Your results may vary...

https://www.biotemedical.com/


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

So, I just started with an injectible (once every two weeks). What should I expect? A month before noticeable results, or sooner? Going into this kind blind. My numbers were in the 250 range...


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Seems like it will take months to have an effect? I don't think it's immediate at all.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

rideit said:


> So, I just started with an injectible (once every two weeks). What should I expect? A month before noticeable results, or sooner? Going into this kind blind. My numbers were in the 250 range...


What is your dosage? Is your doctor monitoring your estrogen levels or giving you an antiestrogen? 
I personally feel every 2 weeks is too long. Most of the time you have too high levels in the first 4 days. You can feel great, or terrible depending on how much is converted to estrogen. Then the second week your levels can be below where you started.


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## PlutonicPlague (Jan 19, 2014)

I'm 67 and suspect that I may have low T levels, but haven't been tested. I'd have to pay out of the pocket for that, since Medicare won't cover it. So I'm just winging it, by how I feel.
I have AFIB (irregular heartbeat) and am on a blood thinner, a blood pressure regulator, and a med that softens my heart tissue and lowers my heart rate. This surfaced back in early 2014. I was told that I was in higher risk of having a stroke, and I had to avoid the possibility of developing any blood clots. The return circulation in my calves isn't what it used to be. 
Right off the bat, my doctor gave me a list of foods that he wanted me to avoid, since they would likely interact with the blood thinner (warfarin) in such a way that it would be difficult to maintain a consistent level of it in my blood. I always wear compression socks when I head out, since the anti-gravity valves inside the veins in my calves seem to have worn out some.
Once I got my "INR level" stabilized, I began to experiment with adding back some of the vegetables, herbs, and healthy foods that had been blacklisted for me. I do my own blood test to check my own INR level whenever I need to know what it reads, so I know what the results of my experimentation are.
My doc doesn't want me to mess with testosterone supplements. He says I'm not supposed to eat oysters, because of the zinc content, but I eat 'em anyway, since a couple of my friends are oyster growers.

So, I try to get plenty of bike rides, walks, and some regular light weight training in. I'm not satisfied to just let my good doctors treat my symptoms. There's only so much recovery that I canmuster, since my AFIB is due to a messed-up nerve cluster and valve on my left atrium, which makes my heart rate irregular, and doesn't even fully load the ventricle.
My doc told me that he expected me to recover to about 85% of my former healthy heart strength. Three months or so ago, the last time I had a checkup, my heart had recovered to about 92%, based on their same metrics. My doc was happy, and so am I. I'm still working at improving, despite having suffered two serious accidents, which set me back a bit.
Life is still good!


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## PlutonicPlague (Jan 19, 2014)

Forgot to mention that men concerned about low testosterone levels probably should not eat any soy products other than naturally fermented soy sauce (tamari), or occasional small amounts of tofu. I've read that theres a high amount of an estrogen-like compound in soy, which I now avoid.
I have quit eating Cliff Bars due to having read the ingredient label and seeing that they contain soy products. I take a Laara Bar along with me on my rides now. They have a simple ingredient list of organic dates, nuts, and coconut. They are my favorite trail bar, and my local grocer carries them!


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

So, I am one month in. I have lost some weight, have a bit more energy, and my wife is happy. I will post more observations as time passes.
I hate the shots, my leg is sore for about three days, which makes it a bit harder to work out/ride.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

The research does not support your conclusion.

Eating soy DOES NOT make a significant different in testosterone nor does it make a significant difference in estrogen levels.

Eat your soy, it's good for you, and it has much fewer side effects than eating meat (cholesterol, fat).

However, smoking cigarettes can cause erectile dysfunction and drinking ETOH can reduce testosterone and diminish libido 



PlutonicPlague said:


> Forgot to mention that men concerned about low testosterone levels probably should not eat any soy products other than naturally fermented soy sauce (tamari), or occasional small amounts of tofu. I've read that theres a high amount of an estrogen-like compound in soy, which I now avoid.
> I have quit eating Cliff Bars due to having read the ingredient label and seeing that they contain soy products. I take a Laara Bar along with me on my rides now. They have a simple ingredient list of organic dates, nuts, and coconut. They are my favorite trail bar, and my local grocer carries them!


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## roadkill401 (Mar 14, 2017)

I am still having the challenge to get my doctor to refer me to an endocrinologist. She did give me a lecture for 7 of the 10-minute appointment about how dangerous getting male hormone replacement is and that all modern doctors no longer look at that option. But I did finally get her to agree to get the blood work done.

I am not sure how I am doing. My results were:

Testosterone 14.2 (8.4 - 28.8) nmol/L

Testosterone Free 269 (196-636) pmol/L
I
So, I am not fallen off the bottom of the expected range, but I don't know what an acceptable level for me should be. I have a friend who also ended up having a fight with his female doctor who eventually gave up and referred him, and when he got his bloodwork done was at 198 Testosterone Free, so I am not as bad as he is, but he hasn't got any results back now that he is on a cream.

I know that I am overweight and could do to lose a good 40lbs even though the doctor seems to think that number should be closer to 90lbs. It's not that I don't eat healthily, and have cut out almost all sugars and starches. I workout 5 times a week with 30min on the treadmill and 15min vigorous free weight training. But I can't seem to lose the padding around the gut and flab man-boobs. I don't know if there are some better keywords that I need to use to get on the radar.


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## Catatafish (Feb 19, 2018)

Clomiphene 1x a week for me and it works well. None of the side effects of injections but honestly, I can't really notice any difference from the lower T count before I was taking it.


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## CHIEF500 (Aug 30, 2012)

Some interesting reading. Thanks.


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## Redriderpro (Dec 20, 2003)

https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a682704.html

Might want to read this, regarding Clomiphene.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

roadkill401 said:


> I am still having the challenge to get my doctor to refer me to an endocrinologist. She did give me a lecture for 7 of the 10-minute appointment about how dangerous getting male hormone replacement is and that all modern doctors no longer look at that option. But I did finally get her to agree to get the blood work done.
> 
> I am not sure how I am doing. My results were:
> 
> ...


The range is an average of people 16-80 years of age. If your doctor is lecturing you about TRT. Time for a new doctor. Did she have your estrogen checked? High estrogen and low androgens are worse for your prostate than TRT


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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

roadkill401 said:


> I am still having the challenge to get my doctor to refer me to an endocrinologist. She did give me a lecture for 7 of the 10-minute appointment about how dangerous getting male hormone replacement is and that all modern doctors no longer look at that option. But I did finally get her to agree to get the blood work done.
> 
> I am not sure how I am doing. My results were:
> 
> ...


Visit the local "Low T" business if one is available.


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## corwin1968 (Oct 8, 2011)

roadkill401 said:


> I am still having the challenge to get my doctor to refer me to an endocrinologist. She did give me a lecture for 7 of the 10-minute appointment about how dangerous getting male hormone replacement is and that all modern doctors no longer look at that option. But I did finally get her to agree to get the blood work done.
> 
> I am not sure how I am doing. My results were:
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, your experience is all too common. Most physicians don't know squat about TRT and generally speaking, you have to seek out a specialist (in TRT...NOT an endocrinologist).

There are options online if you have the financial means. I use Defy and although it's not inexpensive, it is less than half what I was paying a local Low T Center.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

I would start calling around other doctors in your area/network it's unfortunately better to call male doctors. If your state requiers a recomendation to a specialist. Most the time they will talk with you if they are looking for more patients. Find on that understands(this is why I said a male dr.) Or at least understands they work for you since your the one paying. 

Unfortunately there are a lot of hoops to jump through, if you don't want to pay clinic prices


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## tacrac (Feb 22, 2006)

Anyone here heard of Clomiphene ? 62 year old here been dealing with low T for a while I talked with my endrocrinologist (sp) about this and he prescribed 50mg 3 times a week. He said it would take a month or so to get into your system. Well the following blood test came back in a positive way
Worked for me. Somehow this script fools your body into producing more T.
Good luck everyone


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Clomiphene blocks you estrogen receptors, this triggers your body to produce testosterone, since the body thinks it doesn't have any estrogen and to get estrogen you need to make testosterone to be converted into estrogen first. Clomiphene help but a lot of time it's temporary, and the emotional side effects are not tolerated. 

I tried this and it worked for 6 months (I have been on TRT since I was 32 the doctor wanted to see if we could restart my system since I was so young) it quite working and I didn't like the side effects at high doses, still use it at 25mg a week because I like it better than HGC for testicular size retention, libido and sememal volume. Sorry if TMI


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## getyourtup (Dec 7, 2018)

Testosterone replacement therapy works to supplement a shortage of natural testosterone in the body. The treatment has different phases to it, and you will start to notice different benefits at different stages while the injections are being administered weekly. It will take a few months for you to achieve the full spectrum of benefits that TRT offers. We understand you may be someone who has been suffering from testosterone deficiency for a while now, and you might be eager to see the results right away. Do not worry. You can expect to start seeing some of the results not long after your first treatment. This is good news for men who want to start looking and feeling great as soon as possible!

https://www.getyourtup.com/testosterone-therapy/how-does-testosterone-therapy-work


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

getyourtup said:


> Testosterone replacement therapy works to supplement a shortage of natural testosterone in the body. The treatment has different phases to it, and you will start to notice different benefits at different stages while the injections are being administered weekly. It will take a few months for you to achieve the full spectrum of benefits that TRT offers. We understand you may be someone who has been suffering from testosterone deficiency for a while now, and you might be eager to see the results right away. Do not worry. You can expect to start seeing some of the results not long after your first treatment. This is good news for men who want to start looking and feeling great as soon as possible!
> 
> https://www.getyourtup.com/testosterone-therapy/how-does-testosterone-therapy-work


Nice Spam, full of horsesh!t.


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## virility (Dec 5, 2018)

*I have found a testosterone replacement therapy*

Been in a testosterone therapy for almost 2 years now. Thanks to the testosterone replacement therapy clinic in Fort Lauderdale.


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## aasraw (Jan 10, 2019)

*Hello,I am newbie here!*

Testosterone enanthate powder can build my body very well,I have been using it.


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## ravewoofer (Dec 24, 2008)

aasraw said:


> Testosterone enanthate powder can build my body very well,I have been using it.


Assraw doing some quality spamming...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aasraw (Jan 10, 2019)

Hey,man,have you ever tried aasraw's Testosterone enanthate powder? What about it?


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## chako4031 (Jan 17, 2019)

Started Testosterone 2 days ago as first injection. Should I feel sluggish and have insomnia already? Or am I just stressing myself out?


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

chako4031 said:


> Started Testosterone 2 days ago as first injection. Should I feel sluggish and have insomnia already? Or am I just stressing myself out?


How much? Do you have any estrogen control?


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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

chako4031 said:


> Started Testosterone 2 days ago as first injection. Should I feel sluggish and have insomnia already? Or am I just stressing myself out?


Probably stressing yourself. Hang in there for a while, everything will be OK, if not better.

Terry


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## everything motorcycl (Feb 8, 2012)

virility said:


> Been in a testosterone therapy for almost 2 years now. Thanks to the testosterone replacement therapy clinic in Fort Lauderdale.


Must be a lot of $$$.


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## everything motorcycl (Feb 8, 2012)

Cerberus75 said:


> How much? Do you have any estrogen control?


Should feel the opposite. However, how much are you taking?


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

jsnowut said:


> Fair criticisms. Just sharing my limited experience. My friend was under the care of a very good doctor the whole time he was supplementing. I was with him when he died doing what we all love to do.
> 
> Just FYI.
> 
> carry on and cheers again!


Testosterone is converted to estrogens in the body by a process known as aromatization. Estrogens can cause blood clots. Blood clots can cause death. The remedy for this is using a small dose of testosterone or using anti-aromatization drugs.


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## funkle (Sep 11, 2006)

I've been on testosterone for many years, and it has been fantastic. I attribute a lot of the health and vitality I enjoy to it. I self-inject it once every 4 days. I work with a holistic/natural doctor (Holtorf Medical), and the test is just part of an overall balance including thyroid, DHEA and other hormones. I think having someone who can fine tune these things to achieve balance rather than the typical MD who just treats symptoms is key. It's really important to be on bio-identical hormones. Also important to keep a close eye on your prostate as testosterone can increase the progression of prostate cancer if you have it.



chako4031 said:


> Started Testosterone 2 days ago as first injection. Should I feel sluggish and have insomnia already? Or am I just stressing myself out?


Sometimes it can produce mild flu-like symptoms a day or two later. I used to get that, but it seems to have gone away. I guess I've achieved some kind of equilibrium.


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## quite.right (Sep 29, 2016)

funkle said:


> ... overall balance including thyroid, DHEA and other hormones.


Nice to read this! I still struggle with my thyroid switching from Hyper- to Hypothyroidism and back. Just now I know there is a direct connection between the levels of Testesteron, Serotonin, Dopamin and levels of Thyroid hormons. 
@funkle : have you got some charts with your blood values that show Testesteron and Thyroid hormon levels?


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

4 weeks in. So far I think I'm getting some benefit but the day after my injection I get a lot of fluid retention. Day 2 after it's less but still noticeable. Mostly gone by day 3. I'm hoping this isn't going to be how it is always and maybe just my body adjusting/adapting. I go back in a couple weeks for my first follow-up blood work and I'll talk to the doctor about it then. So far that's the only complaint.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Almost 50 here. Been practicing medicine for over 20 years, so I sort of make my living giving people the pills they want. Though anecdotally I will say most men would be better off with real strength training. Squats, deadlifts, etc, with heavy weight. Start low, go slow, but get strong and you'll likely increase your T level.

Yes, some men likely benefit from supplements, and when used properly they can help. I'm not against that. But going that route without first giving it a go the way your body intended may not be the best in the long run.


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## funkle (Sep 11, 2006)

quite.right said:


> @funkle : have you got some charts with your blood values that show Testesteron and Thyroid hormon levels?


Are you asking to see the results?. They are multi page reports with several different panels.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

tl1 said:


> Testosterone is converted to estrogens in the body by a process known as aromatization. Estrogens can cause blood clots. Blood clots can cause death. The remedy for this is using a small dose of testosterone or using anti-aromatization drugs.


A doctor that won't monitor and address estrogen is dangerous.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Nubster said:


> 4 weeks in. So far I think I'm getting some benefit but the day after my injection I get a lot of fluid retention. Day 2 after it's less but still noticeable. Mostly gone by day 3. I'm hoping this isn't going to be how it is always and maybe just my body adjusting/adapting. I go back in a couple weeks for my first follow-up blood work and I'll talk to the doctor about it then. So far that's the only complaint.


How often do you inject? An injection schedule that is more often with lower doses is ideal. Half of whatever you inject is released 24hr later. This can be converted into estrogen and you should be on an AI. I'm on an EOD schedule and don't need to take much AI to keep estrogen in the 30s


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Yeah...just getting started I'm once per week, 200mg cyp. I was thinking about going to 2x week instead to see how that works. Not sure I want to do EOD. No AI right now but that might change once I get my first post therapy blood work done. My estrogen was only 20 pre-TRT so that was good. Interested to see what it will be in a couple weeks.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Nubster said:


> Yeah...just getting started I'm once per week, 200mg cyp. I was thinking about going to 2x week instead to see how that works. Not sure I want to do EOD. No AI right now but that might change once I get my first post therapy blood work done. My estrogen was only 20 pre-TRT so that was good. Interested to see what it will be in a couple weeks.


2x a week is fine. Make sure your appointment is the day after a shot so you'll have an idea how high your estrogen can get.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Yeah...they advised me of the same.


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## JimmyAsheville (Oct 21, 2018)

Cerberus75 said:


> I like it better than HGC for testicular size retention, libido and sememal volume. Sorry if TMI


Dude, are you in the "movies"? ?


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

JimmyAsheville said:


> Dude, are you in the "movies"? ?


LMFAO! No but my wife says i could be a stunt double lol.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

6 week follow up. My test level 6 days AFTER an injection was 1349! Needless to say...doc. bumped me down from 200mg a week to 150mg. When they did labs something happened and they didn't do estrogen levels so they had to do another blood draw today and I'll get that result tomorrow to see where that number is at. Not ideal since today is 4 days after my last injection. Still experiencing a fair amount of water retention. Maybe the lower dose will help. I do plan to start doing more injections as much as I hate to.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

GeoDon said:


> So how many of my fellow riders are on TRT?
> 
> I have been on TRT four years and it has changed my life as my levels were crashing low before treatment.


what is your testosterone level before treatment and after treatment? did doctor prescribe injection or androgel? I am curious.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Nubster said:


> 6 week follow up. My test level 6 days AFTER an injection was 1349! Needless to say...doc. bumped me down from 200mg a week to 150mg. When they did labs something happened and they didn't do estrogen levels so they had to do another blood draw today and I'll get that result tomorrow to see where that number is at. Not ideal since today is 4 days after my last injection. Still experiencing a fair amount of water retention. Maybe the lower dose will help. I do plan to start doing more injections as much as I hate to.


75mg Monday evening and Thursday morning is easy and you'll be pretty level then


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

My T level was really low, so my doc rx'd me Androgel, which brought my T level up well. But after 1 year the discount on the Androgel cut out so I discontinued that and went with a compounding pharmacy. It seems to do the trick, and it's only 50 bucks a month. 
Doable. anybody who has issues with the cost of Androgel might/should give a compounding pharmacy a shot. It just might do the trick.


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## rockman (Jun 18, 2004)

I'm borderline low levels at age 57. Just curious but when supplementing does your body stop producing T all together or is that a myth? 

I apologize if that info is buried somewhere way back in this thread and I'm too lazy to find it.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

My understanding is that it does stop producing test since the body is getting all it needs extraneously. This is why testicle atrophy is a possible side effect. Stopping TRT it can take many months to start producing again or you may not ever regain natural production.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

TRT can indeed cause atrophy and is why some bHRT docs prescribe clomiphene in some cases. It works by stimulating the natural production of the body's own T - basically tells the boys to "get back to work". 

YMMV but I tried it and couldn't FEEL a difference like I could on TRT even though my labs showed an increase.


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

TheBaldBlur said:


> TRT can indeed cause atrophy and is why some bHRT docs prescribe clomiphene in some cases. It works by stimulating the natural production of the body's own T - basically tells the boys to "get back to work".
> 
> YMMV but I tried it and couldn't FEEL a difference like I could on TRT even though my labs showed an increase.


Your avocados will shrink when on TRT.

1000ius a week of HCG is much better than clomid for testicular size.....for me.

Not trying to sway anybody, just my experience.

HCG works great to bring back semen volume, pumps the boys back up and makes orgasms much more rewarding....if you get my drift


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Nubster said:


> My understanding is that it does stop producing test since the body is getting all it needs extraneously. This is why testicle atrophy is a possible side effect. Stopping TRT it can take many months to start producing again or you may not ever regain natural production.


Yes, any amount of exogenous testosterone will shut down your natural production.

If you are older it is a lifetime commitment, as your production most likely be shutdown permanently.


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

rockman said:


> I'm borderline low levels at age 57. Just curious but when supplementing does your body stop producing T all together or is that a myth?
> 
> I apologize if that info is buried somewhere way back in this thread and I'm too lazy to find it.


Everyone is different, in more extreme cases it can happen in early 20s.

When you are 40 or so is when it is more common and I am guessing when in your 50s my more guys need TRT than those that do not.

Millions of men suffer through this and are never treated due to lack of knowledge or resources. Most doctors know nothing about TRT and many endos and urologists prescribe little to no testosterone if they can.

I use a concierge service that is based in Florida and everything is handled via internet or phone call. Local lab services for analysis are all over the country. Fairly inexpensive and they are way more aggressive treating TRT than most endos.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

GeoDon said:


> 1000ius a week of HCG is much better than clomid for testicular size.....for me.


I was going to look into HCG when I resume treatment so thanks for the review on that. Retaining or losing testicular size doesn't bother me one way or another, but I was not impressed with Clomid at all ... for me. My doc suggested it for a couple reasons: I'd maxed out on the sublingual TRT and Clomid is very cheap compared to injections. He's my age and said that if I was much younger he'd stress the "shrinkage" issue but that I probably won't care (I don't).


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

TheBaldBlur said:


> I was going to look into HCG when I resume treatment so thanks for the review on that. Retaining or losing testicular size doesn't bother me one way or another, but I was not impressed with Clomid at all ... for me. My doc suggested it for a couple reasons: I'd maxed out on the sublingual TRT and Clomid is very cheap compared to injections. He's my age and said that if I was much younger he'd stress the "shrinkage" issue but that I probably won't care (I don't).


Yeah this gets tough because my endo says you need HCG for testicular health. My guess is there is a downside to shrinkage but I do not know what that is.

And I am with you, I could care less if they turned into a pair of raisins.

But organisms are much better with HCG with good ejaculations. Think about it, what makes a better orgasm, high or low volume semen?


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

My doc attributed the concern about shrinkage to having an effect on ones self image and being worried about "how they look naked" I think he said. That's not me though. Heck as a cyclist, that could be an advantage ... as long as the shrinkage is limited only to the berries and not the tree trunk.

I do agree on the volume point though and noticed a sharp drop in that area. So again thanks for the feedback, I'll look back into HCG some more when I resume treatment since I'm between insurance plans at the moment.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

elder_mtber said:


> I self-inject testosterone once per week. Been using it for 2 - 3 years now. Feel better than before and lost some weight and 3 inches waist size. Age 71. I recommend it, FWIW.


where do you inject the needle on the body?


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Picard said:


> where do you inject the needle on the body?


Thigh and glutes are the most common. Delt is not a bad place to inject either. Just use a shorter needle.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

TheBaldBlur said:


> My doc attributed the concern about shrinkage to having an effect on ones self image and being worried about "how they look naked" I think he said. That's not me though. Heck as a cyclist, that could be an advantage ... as long as the shrinkage is limited only to the berries and not the tree trunk.
> 
> I do agree on the volume point though and noticed a sharp drop in that area. So again thanks for the feedback, I'll look back into HCG some more when I resume treatment since I'm between insurance plans at the moment.


Size of my balls are the least of my worries as far as how good I look naked...lol


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Estrogen is 59.2. Blah. My general doc put me on Lasix today. Hopefully that will help cut the water retention. Urologist told me to stop injecting until I see them on Thursday to talk about options. So I did a half dose this past Thursday and was supposed to do the other yesterday...so I'll be a week on only 75mg of test. Hopefully they get it sorted out then so I can get back on the program!


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I've been off T therapy for a couple of months now, and my rebuilding of my shoulder back and arm muscles has been slow as molasses. I think my PTs kept it that way on purpose and for a good reason, but now I'm going back on the T therapy just to give me that little anabolic boost that I need. I'm hoping that's the ticket!


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Radium said:


> I've been off T therapy for a couple of months now, and my rebuilding of my shoulder back and arm muscles has been slow as molasses. I think my PTs kept it that way on purpose and for a good reason, but now I'm going back on the T therapy just to give me that little anabolic boost that I need. I'm hoping that's the ticket!


How do you feel emotionally?

I would be a mess if I stopped treatment.


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## drich (Oct 9, 2015)

Thanks to everyone who posted on this topic--regardless of your opinion. Hopefully some of you who use TRT might have some feedback for a new user like myself.

I've had an odd start to TRT. I got the first injection of 125 three weeks ago but came down with bronchitis the next day so I have no idea if it had any effect or not. I felt a bit jittery the night after the injection but also had a fever so hard to tell. I waited until I was healthy enough to get another injection of 125 this week. I ended up getting the injection on the morning of what turned into a 15-hour day from hell at work so when I couldn't sleep last night and still felt wired today I wasn't sure if it was work-related or TRT. I tend to to be really sensitive medications so I'm thinking I'll talk to the Doc about 2 shots a week of 50-60, and since I give the shots to myself I could do Mon/Thur. I'm thinking this might keep me more level based on what I have read. Even after little sleep I felt really strong at the gym today and had less pain in my shoulder than normal. Perhaps a placebo, but I'll see how I do on a ride tomorrow.


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

I’m confused, will TRT give me the balls to do that road gap or not?


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

Haggis said:


> I'm confused, will TRT give me the balls to do that road gap or not?


Haha!

Not the skill but the balls to do the gap.

Except your balls will be shrunken, if that makes sense


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## Haggis (Jan 21, 2004)

GeoDon said:


> Haha!
> 
> Not the skill but the balls to do the gap.
> 
> Except your balls will be shrunken, if that makes sense


Bigger virtual balls, but smaller physical?


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Haggis said:


> Bigger virtual balls, but smaller physical?


The benefit is that if you case the jump and slam your crotch into the top tube...smaller balls = less likely to smash them.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Nubster said:


> Estrogen is 59.2. Blah. My general doc put me on Lasix today. Hopefully that will help cut the water retention. Urologist told me to stop injecting until I see them on Thursday to talk about options. So I did a half dose this past Thursday and was supposed to do the other yesterday...so I'll be a week on only 75mg of test. Hopefully they get it sorted out then so I can get back on the program!


Stopped Laxis myself after reading how nasty it can be. Urologist put me back on about 4 weeks ago on a lower dose (100mg weekly) thinking that I just needed to allow my body to adjust. Water retention is still a thing but it's quite a bit less. I was also in the last 4 weeks diagnosed with a kidney stone...so now I'm dealing with that. Urologist did some blood work last week because of that to check some things related to kidney function as well as a 4 week checkup to see where my T levels were. They called friday and said my hematocrit was a bit high which I understand is a possible side affect of TRT and I forgot to ask how my T levels were. I'll call tomorrow to check on that. I had actually scheduled a blood donation locally for end of the month and the doctor suggested that I did do a blood donation and also said to stop therapy again until I got that down. I found a place not too far away that was actually doing a drive the same day so i got my donation done Friday so I'll go in Tuesday to have the level checked again...hoping it's lowered enough I don't have to stop therapy. Next injection is Thursday. I do plan to continue giving blood every 2 months for health benefits and of course...to help out with blood needs. So...this whole TRT experience has been a PITA but at least I for the most part do feel better. Just need to get these last wrinkles ironed out.


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## drich (Oct 9, 2015)

Slept much better last night but still think I’ll switch to twice weekly injections. Rode for the first time today after being sick for 2 weeks. No doubt that the trt made an impact. I usually start each ride tight and with muscle aches from injuries but today I felt no pain. I also cleared some long climbs where I usually struggle—and this was after being off the bike for a few weeks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rocdog (Oct 26, 2005)

Has anyone had their blood thicken (as a result of TRT) to the point where performance has suffered? I guess this can be one of the side effects?


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

rocdog said:


> Has anyone had their blood thicken (as a result of TRT) to the point where performance has suffered? I guess this can be one of the side effects?


Mine hasn't thickened but my hematocrit increased from 46 to 54. So I'm just out of range. Did a blood donation Friday. Had blood drawn yesterday. Should have results later today to see if the donation lowered it so I can continue TRT. Doctor wanted me to stop injections as of last Friday but if my hematocrit is lower I'm going to do my injection this week and then I see the doctor next week and I'll talk about further options and treatment.


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## Goodwoodz (Dec 10, 2008)

I just started. Shots twice weekly subcutaneous, .8 test a week, 1.0 HCG per week. So cut numbers in half twice a week. My total free testosterone before treatments per blood test was 212. So far feel pretty good.


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

rocdog said:


> Has anyone had their blood thicken (as a result of TRT) to the point where performance has suffered? I guess this can be one of the side effects?


Hematocrit will rise due to TRT, it is almost a given. Blood donation is part of keeping blood thickness at a lower and safe level.

But, I'm guessing higher hematocrit is a good thing when riding as red blood cell count is always higher.


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## Radium (Jan 11, 2019)

I'm gonna have to pay the hematocrit levels more mind from now on.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

High levels can mess you up. I hit 56 and my doctor cut me off until the number came down. Same day I found I had high hematocrit I donated blood and it came down enough my doc said I could resume treatment. I had planned to donate blood anyways but my local area wasn't having a drive until a couple weeks after I got my high result so I didn't want to wait. So now I'll be doing it routinely every two months. I guess it's serious enough that they won't even let you donate if your number is too high and they do test it prior to you donating. The Red Cross has a slightly higher number but I wasn't far below that one either.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

GeoDon said:


> But, I'm guessing higher hematocrit is a good thing when riding as red blood cell count is always higher.


I guess yeah...maybe. I mean cyclists use EPO to stimulate red blood cell production or blood dope to add back more of their own blood into the system for performance enhancement. But I suppose that these measures are temporary since the EPO wears off or the body will regulate the added blood cells from doping over time. But in our case we have caused our body to produce its own excess of red blood cells so we don't get the relief of it lowering unless we take steps to cause that to happen. But just like us having high hematocrit...EPO especially is pretty dangerous and can thicken the blood, leading to an increased risk of several deadly diseases, such as heart disease, stroke, and cerebral or pulmonary embolism. I'm sure the hematocrit number of an EPO user is quite a bit higher than most TRT patients but still not something I want to muck around with.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Nubster said:


> I guess yeah...maybe. I mean cyclists use EPO to stimulate red blood cell production or blood dope to add back more of their own blood into the system for performance enhancement. But I suppose that these measures are temporary since the EPO wears off or the body will regulate the added blood cells from doping over time. But in our case we have caused our body to produce its own excess of red blood cells so we don't get the relief of it lowering unless we take steps to cause that to happen. But just like us having high hematocrit...EPO especially is pretty dangerous and can thicken the blood, leading to an increased risk of several deadly diseases, such as heart disease, stroke, and cerebral or pulmonary embolism. I'm sure the hematocrit number of an EPO user is quite a bit higher than most TRT patients but still not something I want to muck around with.


WADA limits hematocrit to 50. Any higher than that, unless you can prove you are from an area with a population that has naturally high hematocrit (some Colombians sit at 51 the day they are born, for example), and you can't race.

Super high hematocrit thickens the blood into a sludge that the heart can't pump at low heart rate. Dutch and Belgian kids were injecting EPO like crazy back on the day, and dying in their sleep when their heart rate fell too low to pump their blood. Some of them took to waking up and doing jumping jacks a couple times a night. Crazy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Mine was 56 after TRT. 44 or 46 or something like that prior to TRT. 54 after donating blood. Red Cross says anything higher than 20 g/dL. Mine was 18.6.


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## Goodwoodz (Dec 10, 2008)

Oct 1 will be 4 months on TRT. I see no downside. Two blood tests and I'm pretty dialed in, test in range, cholesterol in range, hematocrit in range. On a minimum amount, 150mg per week. I inject 3 times per week, 50mg ea. Use a small 29ga insulin needle and inject sub-q. If your on the fence at least go see someone.


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## levity (Oct 31, 2011)

*Study - TRT and risk of venous thromboembolism*

*Association of Testosterone Therapy With Risk of Venous Thromboembolism Among Men With and Without Hypogonadism*

JAMA Intern Med. doi:10.1001/jamainternmed.2019.5135 Published online November 11, 2019.

This case-crossover study analyzed data on 39 622 men ... from January 1, 2011, to December 31, 2017, with 12 months of follow-up.

Conclusions

Testosterone therapy was associated with an increase in short-term risk for VTE among men with and without hypogonadism, with some evidence that the association was more pronounced among younger men. These findings suggest that caution should be used when prescribing testosterone therapy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31710339


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## GeoDon (Jul 10, 2017)

levity said:


> *Association of Testosterone Therapy With Risk of Venous Thromboembolism Among Men With and Without Hypogonadism*
> 
> JAMA Intern Med. doi:10.1001/jamainternmed.2019.5135 Published online November 11, 2019.
> 
> ...


Yeah pretty much happens with any surgery or medication, there are side effects and risks with just about all of it.

But I will say this, I would rather be on TRT and have the health benefits and mental well being while taking the risk, compared to a limp noodled, skinny fat, low energy depressed old man with low T.

If the probability were that high with VTE, TRT would be banned.


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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

Me too, GeoDon.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

When I was in my mid 30s (I'm nearly 50 now) I trained a lot. I took some GNC T booster supplement and when I was done with that I felt really bad. After a few months I went and saw my doctor, who had almost been my father-in-law years ago and so was extra helpful I'd say.

My T level was '7', which is essentially none. I've been on T with an Anti-E and a little bit of HCG for basically 13 years ever since and have done very well on it.

It's reasonable to suspect that I was always low T just looking at my physical features. (i.e. full head of hair but no body hair, couldn't really grow facial hair until mid 20s, unusually smooth skin, not a particularly low voice, struggled to gain muscle even with intense workouts for years, etc). Sex drive was never a factor.

Even though I didn't start T until my mid-30s, I had notable changes in my body. Not all good! My head hair began to fall out at a rapid pace and I began to get body hair.

I would suggest to any man beginning HRT to add finasteride (bald pill) from day #1 because unless you have absolutely no history of baldness in your entire family, you will lose your hair. Also, it's pretty much a lifelong commitment.

The only other thing I've realized is that what is considered 'mid-range' T levels for most men is way too high for me. My scalp itches like crazy indicating conversion and scalp irritation, I can become hyper aggressive (I'm usually very friendly), and all I can think about is sex. So I purposely let myself stay near the lower end of the T range and I feel well there.

Good luck.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> I would suggest to any man beginning HRT to add finasteride (bald pill) from day #1 because unless you have absolutely no history of baldness in your entire family, you will lose your hair. *Also, it's pretty much a lifelong commitment.*
> 
> The only other thing I've realized is that what is considered 'mid-range' T levels for most men is way too high for me. My scalp itches like crazy indicating conversion and scalp irritation, I can become hyper aggressive (I'm usually very friendly), and all I can think about is sex. So I purposely let myself stay near the lower end of the T range and I feel well there.
> 
> Good luck.


Approaching my mid-50's and the last time I was checked I was in the normal range, albeit at the lower end of it. I'll have it checked again and, if low, would love to pursue my hrt options but damn, something about 'lifelong commitment' scares the hell out of me.


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

upstateSC-rider said:


> Approaching my mid-50's and the last time I was checked I was in the normal range, albeit at the lower end of it. I'll have it checked again and, if low, would love to pursue my hrt options but damn, something about 'lifelong commitment' scares the hell out of me.


"normal range" is very relative and a pretty wide scale. My regular family doctor tested mine and declared me "normal" because I was at the lower end of the range and therefor refused to try treating it. I got a second opinion from another doctor who specializes in bHRT and he looked at the same labs and said "yeah normal is very subjective - how do you feel?" He got my numbers from low 300s to over 800 and it was transformative in all aspects of how I felt physically AND mentally.

Maybe it's just me, but the older I get (57 now) the less "lifelong commitment" means to me. Besides, feeling good and being in shape has been part of my "lifelong commitment" so if bHRT is part of that now along with regular exercise, eating right, etc. then I have no problem with that and it's well worth it.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

So, more than a year from starting this, my life has been transformed. More energy, drive of all types, etc. had the best cycling season in decades, regularly getting Strava trophies, etc. but I noticed something. 
(Sample of one, many factors here, one plain just spending so much time on the bike I got a lot better).
My tolerance for risk increased exponentially, and I assume some of this is due to heightened testosterone levels. I found myself riding WAAY more dangerous things than ever before, and I have some battle scars to prove it (getting a total knee replacement in January due to a horrific DH accident). I am 53, and have been mt. Biking since 88, but I started hitting 10 foot step downs, gap jumps, Monarch Crest runs at Mach Looney, etc. nothing totally new, but WAY bigger.
I am not saying this happens to everyone, but it is a reference point, just something to consider. 
In all other ways, it has been remarkable.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

TheBaldBlur said:


> "normal range" is very relative and a pretty wide scale. My regular family doctor tested mine and declared me "normal" because I was at the lower end of the range and therefor refused to try treating it. I got a second opinion from another doctor who specializes in bHRT and he looked at the same labs and said "yeah normal is very subjective - how do you feel?" He got my numbers from low 300s to over 800 and it was transformative in all aspects of how I felt physically AND mentally.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but the older I get (57 now) the less "lifelong commitment" means to me. * Besides, feeling good and being in shape has been part of my "lifelong commitment" so if bHRT is part of that now along with regular exercise, eating right, etc. then I have no problem with that and it's well worth it*.


Great point, thanks for that.


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## drich (Oct 9, 2015)

I've been using TRT for about 6 months. 2 shots per week that I do myself and get my lab work done every 3 months. The only side-effect is that I definitely run warmer now. The positives have been increased muscle and less fat, much better recovery, stronger on the bike and at the gym, significantly less soreness after a tough ride or work-out. Like others have said, fitness has always been a big part of my life so I don't see a downside of this being a 'lifelong commitment.'


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

rideit said:


> So, more than a year from starting this, my life has been transformed. More energy, drive of all types, etc. had the best cycling season in decades, regularly getting Strava trophies, etc. but I noticed something.
> (Sample of one, many factors here, one plain just spending so much time on the bike I got a lot better).
> My tolerance for risk increased exponentially, and I assume some of this is due to heightened testosterone levels. I found myself riding WAAY more dangerous things than ever before, and I have some battle scars to prove it (getting a total knee replacement in January due to a horrific DH accident). I am 53, and have been mt. Biking since 88, but I started hitting 10 foot step downs, gap jumps, Monarch Crest runs at Mach Looney, etc. nothing totally new, but WAY bigger.
> I am not saying this happens to everyone, but it is a reference point, just something to consider.
> In all other ways, it has been remarkable.


Some years back my T got too high for me (in the normal range for most). I was at the MX track riding my typical fast Novice/ slow Int safe pace when a known Professional motocrosser stuffed me in a turn unneccessarily aggressive knocking me off line and way behind. At that moment (in what can only be called a roid-rage moment) I decided I was going to stuff him back or just flat run in to him, and proceeded to give chase. For 2 laps I not so slowly reeled in this Pro MXer. Not really riding past my skill level (track I knew very well) but at that moment my personal safety and the emotions that usually held me back, did not occur to me at all. Still I put together 2 really strong laps nailing ruts and carrying speed over every large jump putting it all together perfectly, my body was really one with the bike and I rode confidently really far forward instead of fearfully further back. The Pro took a peak back as I drove in on him pretty hard in a tight turn as I was getting almost close enough to stuff him back, and I saw him look really startled that I was about 5' behind him and gaining. For some reason at that moment I completely calmed down and went right back to my very average speed.

Later on I thought: "Is that what is possible with a lot of T?"

In that same time period I had some very uncharacteristic emotional outbursts that could have ended badly. I also ran my fingers through my hair in the shower 1 day and in one swoop probably had 500 hairs on my hand. In that time period it occurred to me that running T levels around 750-900 was just too high for me. Maybe it's cause I'd never really had T levels like that, or my body was just not meant to operate in that range. I also got super ripped not really doing anything different.

I've since maintained T levels close to 350-400 and feel really good around there, and about 75% of my hair came back as well.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> Some years back my T got too high for me (in the normal range for most). I was at the MX track riding my typical fast Novice/ slow Int safe pace when a known Professional motocrosser stuffed me in a turn unneccessarily aggressive knocking me off line and way behind. At that moment (in what can only be called a roid-rage moment) I decided I was going to stuff him back or just flat run in to him, and proceeded to give chase. For 2 laps I not so slowly reeled in this Pro MXer. Not really riding past my skill level (track I knew very well) but at that moment my personal safety and the emotions that usually held me back, did not occur to me at all. Still I put together 2 really strong laps nailing ruts and carrying speed over every large jump putting it all together perfectly, my body was really one with the bike and I rode confidently really far forward instead of fearfully further back. The Pro took a peak back as I drove in on him pretty hard in a tight turn as I was getting almost close enough to stuff him back, and I saw him look really startled that I was about 5' behind him and gaining. For some reason at that moment I completely calmed down and went right back to my very average speed.
> 
> Later on I thought: "Is that what is possible with a lot of T?"
> 
> ...


I knew it, you're James Stewart and the other guy that stuffed you was Chad Reed.
Seriously though, a side-effect that I didn't know of is increased focus, you were able to use it well and put together some hot laps...Kudos.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

I too also notice increased focus, it has helped at work and play.


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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

drich said:


> The only side-effect is that I definitely run warmer now.


Run warmer - do you sometimes get too hot?

I have been negatively affected by getting too hot when exercising and have tried for years to find a cause. I never stopped T therapy but did cut my dose in half for two weeks but noticed no improvement.


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## Kyle87 (Jan 12, 2021)

I want to chime in and say that I was in a similar situation a few years ago. I often felt weak and apathetic, both mentally and physically. Brain fog was a part of my daily life, as well as the lack of energy and focus. I honestly started thinking I was depressed, but my GP recommended me to look into my hormone levels. I checked my TSH at first, but it was within the normal range. But then my testosterone levels ended up being too low for my age, so I started looking for a solution. I was wary of synthetic hormones and decided to try something light first, that's how I found a food supplement called Testogen. Do Testogen really work? Well they did for me, so I think it's worth a try.


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## joeduda (Jan 4, 2013)

upstateSC-rider said:


> I knew it, you're James Stewart and the other guy that stuffed you was Chad Reed.
> Seriously though, a side-effect that I didn't know of is increased focus, you were able to use it well and put together some hot laps...Kudos.


Sounds more like something Barcia would do!!


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## everything motorcycl (Feb 8, 2012)

Kyle87 said:


> I'm a bit skeptical about hormone replacement therapy... You never know what side effects it might trigger.


It does have side affects, most things do. It's about weighing your options. With that said the majority have very minor side affects. And with that said, or saying too too much...I truly think 75 to 100 mg is extraordinarily effective. Most people are on twice that. Maybe start low...keep expectations low. The lower the dose, the lower chances of side affects. 
In my research, you are basically risking what normal testosterones might do. Your body may decrease testosterone as you get older to help you in other areas, risks for related cancers etc. So yeah, it's all a balancing act as lowT is no fun to live with either.


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## andy f (Jan 13, 2004)

Did any of you have significant hypertension before starting TRT? I've had issues with it since my late teens. Nothing to to with weight, fitness, or diet. The only clue I have is that while my aldosterone:renin ratio is normal, both my aldosterone and renin levels are very high. That normally indicates either a growth or a narrowed artery in one or both kidneys but I don't have either. In any case, the result is that i'm on a calcium channel blocker, an angiotensin receptor blocker, and a diuretic to maintain my blood pressure.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

UPDATE

At the risk of over sharing, I will share my experience this last year at (now) 54.
In the last few years, I got much fitter, and simultaneously the bikes got better, and I actually got much more ‘daring’ on the bike. 

I was diagnosed with really low testosterone about 18 months ago, so I started taking HGH for that. I also joined Strava at about this time. The endorphin reward of getting trophies (and even a few KOM’s on really long DH runs) proved ultimately to be dangerous. I spent the last year and a bit getting really pretty fast, then crashing spectacularly, riding over my head. Then I would recover, and repeat the process. 


Since last November, I had
A total knee replacement
A torn calf
Two broken ribs (first time)
Mashed up shoulder
More broken ribs (second time).


I knew this wasn’t sustainable, so I recently had some blood work done, and my t-levels were four times what they should have been. 
I am not really blaming the injuries on anything but poor judgement, but I believe my judgement was changed by the HGH, and the adrenaline. It was a crazy year! 

Now I have reduced the HGH to a simple, normal level for my age. I also have a dedicated weight training program in order to get stronger and prevent injuries, and am starting some type of coaching for the fitness/cycling side. 

I have nothing to prove, I know I can be fast, but the desire to let it all hang out for Strava glory has significantly diminished. My goal this year is a little slower, a LOT smoother, and overall more consistent. I want to get lost in the moment riding again, and not be concerned with the dopamine hit of the Strava ‘report’ at the end of a ride. 

As a friend said, “you can’t win if you don’t finish” 
Not entirely sure how this helps the OP, but I wanted to honestly share my experiences with mid-life shredding, I hope it can help someone.

One other observation, I find that when I ride with a little THC, say, 5mg edibles, I tend to not be a slave to speed as much.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Testosterone therapy replacement...no thanks! I'd rather eat healthy with lots of healthy fats and proteins, keep my weight down, and limit alcohol consumption to maximize my natural testosterone production.


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## OldManBiker (Nov 5, 2016)

I have watched and read this thread for some time. I have always been very active, exercised, worked out and took up mountain biking 4+ years to stay in shape. I have been receiving TRT in both shot and pellet injection for 5-6yrs. My urologist always ALWAYS watching my PSA and blood work religiously, as he should. My PSA level was always below .01+/-. Last fall it shot up to .4 which is the "mendoza line" of concern. We waited 3 months and did another blood test and it has risen to 4.6. Not good. I have since had an MRI on my prostate and a biopsy on my prostate this past Thursday. Awaiting the results to find out if I do in fact have prostate cancer.

My only purpose for this post is to say be sure guys that your Urologist is watching your PSA 1-2x a year and communicating with you. I'm thankful mine was and that he took his job/responsibility as an Urologist to heart. Testosterone doesn't CAUSE prostate cancer but it can feed it if you have it. I'm still learning a lot about all this.


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## drich (Oct 9, 2015)

OMB--hope the results of the MRI and biopsy don't show anything serious. I agree that like any medical protocol it is critical to take TRT under a doctor's supervision. I get blood work done every 3 months. I've been using it for 2 years now, and the only side-effect is what I mentioned in an earlier post--I run warmer now and sweat more during exercise. As for eating healthier, exercising, etc. to keep T levels high, that wasn't the case for me. I don't drink any alcohol, eat a very healthy diet, and weigh the same as I did in college. If you are 40+ and feel good without taking T, that is great for you. I've been into fitness and nutrition my entire adult life, and TRT has made a positive difference.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

I just reviewed some of the recent post since I have been considering TRT. I’m a RN and obviously an avid mountain biker. Any decision about hormone replacement therapy needs to definitely be analyzed on your own medical needs. I’m a firm believer that you should try everything holistic before resorting to TRT. I have been very consistent with diet, rest and exercise(focused on cycling daily) My objective for considering TRT is to regain my right shoulder strength and ROM. I had a partial tear almost 8 months ago, therapy since but my strength is still far from normal. When discussed with my doctor he actually recommended pending any TRT and prioritizing development of my strength naturally. He further suggested that HGH is the best therapy for rehabilitation but used under strict protocols. 
Anyway, just sharing my investigation on TRT, I hope this helps.


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## Prognosticator (Feb 15, 2021)

I turned 54 in February and had my annual check-up which included testosterone. I think it's kind of crappy when someone puts a very real concern like this out there, and others tell them "just eat some strawberries, cut out dairy, caffeine and alcohol..." I am fortunate that my numbers came back at the highest level within the normal range. I am not sure if there's a correlation but I do try to lift heavy weights a few times per week though I am little hampered right now because of some hemorrhoid issues. I have checked out the hemorrhoid thread and was glad to see that I am not alone. I will say that I feel good after a hard lift and I would recommend it to anyone who has the time and energy, though I know that not everyone is so blessed. I do see plenty of men far older than me who have such muscle mass that I can't help but wonder of they are visiting the "aging clinic" That being said, I hope those suffering with low testosterone find the help they need and better quality of life. I could be following your example some day.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

Give it a damn rest, spammer.


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## Dung Hopper (Jun 24, 2013)

I want to try this. I'm not 50 yet but I feel run down all the time. I struggle every spring trying to get into biking shape and feel less motivation every year. I never get laid so maybe that is killing my testosterone. Mine is seemingly so low that I don't even care anymore that I don't get laid. I was tested a couple years ago and my testosterone was in the normal range but a little bit on the low side, I think. There lies the issue. I doubt a doctor would prescribe this without a really low reading, right?


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## elder_mtber (Jan 13, 2004)

Dung Hopper said:


> I want to try this. I'm not 50 yet but I feel run down all the time. I struggle every spring trying to get into biking shape and feel less motivation every year. I never get laid so maybe that is killing my testosterone. Mine is seemingly so low that I don't even care anymore that I don't get laid. I was tested a couple years ago and my testosterone was in the normal range but a little bit on the low side, I think. There lies the issue. I doubt a doctor would prescribe this without a really low reading, right?


Go for it. Tell doc about the symptoms in your message. I don't know if your testo needs to be super low for testo therapy. Mine was 88 or something but I am way older.

Best wishes.


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## drich (Oct 9, 2015)

_"There lies the issue. I doubt a doctor would prescribe this without a really low reading, right?'_

If your primary care doctor is on the conservative side and/or hasn't done the research on TRT, they may not write a prescription for you. Depending on where you live, you should be able to find an anti-aging doctor or clinic who can test your levels, write a prescription, and monitor your blood levels.


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## esmariakrider (5 mo ago)

If someone here recovered their back from a car accident? Right now, I'm in a bad situation after a car accident, and I cannot walk much.


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## everything motorcycl (Feb 8, 2012)

esmariakrider said:


> If someone here recovered their back from a car accident? Right now, I'm in a bad situation after a car accident, and I cannot walk much.
> 
> 
> Rest, Rehab.


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## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

How do you guys get started on hormone therapy? 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

Picard said:


> How do you guys get started on hormone therapy?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


First, I would do everything I can to try to correct low testosterone naturally. When you start using synthetic testosterone replacement it will turn off your body's natural testosterone production, and there are some risks and side effects. Make sure you have dialed in your sleep, nutrition, body composition, stress management, and other lifestyle factors. Also, there are some minerals and supplements that can help.

As far as exercise, a lot of chronic cardio can lower testosterone. As mountain bikers we tend to do a lot of cardio workouts, but for testosterone production lifting heavy weights and sprinting are actually better. Overtraining greatly lowers testosterone and libido.

If you have all of the above dialed in and still have low T, then you should see a good doctor or endocrinologist to determine if and how you should supplement. Gels, injections, creams, etc. all have their pros and cons. The doctor should be regularly monitoring you for T levels and prostate issues.

Or, you could go to Vinny at the local bodybuilding gym and get the good stuff.


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## everything motorcycl (Feb 8, 2012)

Picard said:


> How do you guys get started on hormone therapy?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


There's multiple avenues. The legal medical way can be very expensive. The best is if you have insurance to at least cover blood work which is a must! I would only recommend starting with your physician...after that, i know people will go black market. But without intensive lab work you could be setting yourself up for medical complications. Hormone levels are important but things like hematocrit are crucial as well. Some black market guys are very knowledgeable as it is a very old science that can be learned pretty easily. But start with your physician. Most refer you out because they are lazy and that's where they 'rejuvenation' doctors become expensive. But again. blood work blood work blood work.


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## leonedibben (5 mo ago)

After my car accident, I hurt my back very badly, and I have been recovering from this trauma for 5 years. I tried fitness exercises, injections, and other stuff, but none of these methods helped. Hopefully, I found an article here https://www.healthcanal.com/nutrition/best-testosterone-booster-men-over-50 about testosterone. With my doctor's help, I started doing injections of testosterone in my back/ after 6 months situation changed, and I could walk for short periods. Now I can walk around 4 hrs daily, which is an awesome result. If any of you got the same problem reaching me in private messages, I will describe my method to you in more detail.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

Just going to toss in my $.02.

49.8 years old. Been on TRT for 1.5 years now. My GP Is my best friend from HS and is an internist who runs the Dr building for the network he works for. So he knows his **** and he does TRT as well (cream).

best way to start is your GP and blood work or go to a TRT clinic if you have available. I use a clinic and he double checks me.

Basically his 2 rules are:
1) keep tear below 700
2) keep blood thickness under 50

Stick to that and he said you’ll never have an issue. The clinic I use does blood work every 3-4 months. He does blood work every 3-6 months.

When I did first 2 blood tests I was at 205 and 200. Normal is 600-1000. I now hover around 650-720 and haven’t felt this good since my 20s. I lift 4 days a week and MTB 3-4 days a week. Recovery, general health is off the charts and I can build muscle again where as before I couldn’t at all.

Before and after pic attached. Ask any questions you like. I tell everyone I know about it as it’s a game changer as long as you abide by the 2 rules.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Brules said:


> Just going to toss in my $.02.
> 
> 49.8 years old. Been on TRT for 1.5 years now. My GP Is my best friend from HS and is an internist who runs the Dr building for the network he works for. So he knows his **** and he does TRT as well (cream).
> 
> ...


Did you doctor friend counsel you to try and lose some weight before going TRT? Excess body fat can get your testosterone/estrogen ratios out of whack. I would have tried everything under my control before going on T for life.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

Trust me we tried everything lol. Plus t2 diabetic. If you can’t build muscle losing fat is hard lol.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

Any opinions on injections vs. gel vs. cream vs. nasal application, etc.?
Injections require going to a doctor every couple of week or so, which can be a hassle. Gel is applied every morning, so it better approximates daily hormone cycles. Gel has some risk of getting it on your spouse during physical contact.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

jabrabu said:


> Any opinions on injections vs. gel vs. cream vs. nasal application, etc.?
> Injections require going to a doctor every couple of week or so, which can be a hassle. Gel is applied every morning, so it better approximates daily hormone cycles. Gel has some risk of getting it on your spouse during physical contact.


My wife is a primary care provider, she said start with crème, then recheck.

She also said that it’s very common for men to come into her office believing they have low testosterone, but it’s far less common for it be to be low.

She said low testosterone was more common in geriatric males, 70+.

Low testosterone in younger men was usually related to a health condition like a pituitary tumor or obesity.

For endurance athletes, low testosterone is common, but the reduction is generally minimal … and we’re talking real endurance athletes which most of us are not.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

jabrabu said:


> Any opinions on injections vs. gel vs. cream vs. nasal application, etc.?
> Injections require going to a doctor every couple of week or so, which can be a hassle. Gel is applied every morning, so it better approximates daily hormone cycles. Gel has some risk of getting it on your spouse during physical contact.


Put the crème on chest and shoulders before dressing for work, not a problem.

Most folks who take testosterone injections will self administer at home. In office is generally once a month.

There are also testosterone pellets.


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## jabrabu (Aug 2, 2010)

When you say creme, is that different from the gel?


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## TheBaldBlur (Jan 13, 2014)

jabrabu said:


> Injections require going to a doctor every couple of week or so, which can be a hassle.


If a doctor requires you to come to them for injections FIND ANOTHER DOCTOR. 

Also "every couple week or so" is way too far apart for dosing; sounds like this doctor doesn't know what he's doing.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

I'm working with physicians daily and developing clinical programs to better manage care for their practices. Physicians can diagnose, prescribe and treat patients on their own terms. Starting a patient on TRT is entirely up to that physician. If an man is diagnosed with low testosterone in addiction to his other diagnoses such as obesity, arthritis, depression or anything else. It is up to that physician to choose the right course of treatment. As an RN that has audited 1000's of medical records for compliance and for malpractice law suits, I would be suspicious of a patient started on TRT that is obese and perhaps has hypertension and pre-diabetic lab results. 
So what I'm saying is if your overweight, loose the weight and follow a strict diet with an aggressive cardio program. Adding TRT when your overweight/obese can have potential bad results. Don’t take my word you can see this reference 








Effectiveness of testosterone therapy in obese men with low testosterone levels, for losing weight, controlling obesity complications, and preventing cardiovascular events: Protocol of a systematic review of randomized controlled trials


The use of testosterone replacement therapy in obese men with low testosterone levels has been controversial. This review aims to analyze the effectiveness of testosterone therapy for weight loss and preventing cardiovascular complications in obese men ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

jabrabu said:


> When you say creme, is that different from the gel?


Same thing, topical


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

hardmtnbiker said:


> I'm working with physicians daily and developing clinical programs to better manage care for their practices. Physicians can diagnose, prescribe and treat patients on their own terms. Starting a patient on TRT is entirely up to that physician. If an man is diagnosed with low testosterone in addiction to his other diagnoses such as obesity, arthritis, depression or anything else. It is up to that physician to choose the right course of treatment. As an RN that has audited 1000's of medical records for compliance and for malpractice law suits, I would be suspicious of a patient started on TRT that is obese and perhaps has hypertension and pre-diabetic lab results.
> So what I'm saying is if your overweight, loose the weight and follow a strict diet with an aggressive cardio program. Adding TRT when your overweight/obese can have potential bad results. Don’t take my word you can see this reference
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for this, this is exactly my issue.
I don't want to get started on TRT although I'm sure it'll help with the weight loss I really need, but the excess weight is probably causing the low testosterone...A vicious cycle


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

I lost 60 lbs before I started TRT. Made no diff in my T levels. I’ll trust my internist Dr vs an RN. I don’t regret it one bit and I feel better than in my 30s and 40s.

Women go through menopause and go on hormones for life and no one bats an eye lol. As long as you’re Dr supervised and the Dr isn’t a quack idiot (get a GOOD GP!) and you stay within the limits I mentioned above there’s little to no issue.

If you’re overweight and have no T, losing weight is going to be a real *****. Muscle burns fat and if you have none, can’t build or maintain muscle - good luck.

Ill Take being on shots for life vs before.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

Brules said:


> I lost 60 lbs before I started TRT. Made no diff in my T levels. I’ll trust my internist Dr vs an RN. I don’t regret it one bit and I feel better than in my 30s and 40s.
> 
> Women go through menopause and go on hormones for life and no one bats an eye lol. As long as you’re Dr supervised and the Dr isn’t a quack idiot (get a GOOD GP!) and you stay within the limits I mentioned above there’s little to no issue.
> 
> ...


Your commitment to a healthy lifestyle and not continue on the same path that led to your obesity is what counts. 
TRT is working for you, great!


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## surefire76 (Oct 15, 2021)

Nurse Ben said:


> My wife is a primary care provider, she said start with crème, then recheck.
> 
> She also said that it’s very common for men to come into her office believing they have low testosterone, but it’s far less common for it be to be low.
> 
> ...


Interesting article. Not a big sample size, but something to consider.









Low Testosterone Found in Male Mountain Bikers - Breaking Muscle


Recent research has investigated a variety testicular disorders associated with mountain biking, which can include scrotal injuries, low sperm count, erectile dysfunction, and unusually high scrotal temperatures. New research in Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research, examined gonadal...




breakingmuscle.com


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## surefire76 (Oct 15, 2021)

GeoDon said:


> So how many of my fellow riders are on TRT?
> 
> I have been on TRT four years and it has changed my life as my levels were crashing low before treatment.


My doc just referred me to get started. Seems like there is a correlation between MTB and low T for men.









Low Testosterone Found in Male Mountain Bikers - Breaking Muscle


Recent research has investigated a variety testicular disorders associated with mountain biking, which can include scrotal injuries, low sperm count, erectile dysfunction, and unusually high scrotal temperatures. New research in Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research, examined gonadal...




breakingmuscle.com


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

It’s a well known fact bike riders can cause serious harm to the boys, nothing new there lol. I highly recommend getting professionally fitted for your bike. Made a world of difference for me.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

There are multiple reasons for low testosterone levels and repeated trauma could be one of them. Here is a good article discussing low testosterone levels and yes when we are 70 and over we will will all have lower levels





Testosterone and the heart - Harvard Health


Testosterone has been linked to cardiac risk factors like peripheral artery disease (PAD). The most serious long-term complications of testosterone therapy include an increased risk of prostate di...




www.health.harvard.edu


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