# Daytime Running Lights - Now a reality



## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

Hello,

To me biking is not about right or wrong, but winning and losing. In an accident, it makes little difference if you right because we always lose. I was in one such accident a few years ago and I sure don't want to repeat it.

I had been riding with bike lights for the past 15-years, but now I wanted a set that gave me the same set of active protection I had at night for use during the day. After all, cars have had daytime running lights for years now so why not bikes?

I began my search back in November 2011, here on this forum. What I wanted is one set of lights that I could use on my bike full time, equally at home during the day as they were at night. What I found, is that while a lot had changed in bike lights over the years, the industry as a whole had not embraced the concept of full-time bike lights. For me, its as much about safety as about getting my confidence back to ride in traffic. 

The main issue was finding a good taillight. AA flashers don't cut it for daytime use, I've seem many. Dinotte looked like the best bet, until I saw a comparison video for DesignShine Lighting the DS-500, which had twice the lumen output and from every angle. But what sold me on the DS-500 were the testimonials from people who used it. They reported cars giving them A LOT of extra room and slowing down as they went by.

I also got the DS-1300 the headlight. I compared it to a lot of other headlights, but what I liked about the DS-1300 as compared to the lights to similar lights in its price range was that it was designed for daylight as well as nighttime use. It has 6 different flash modes for daylight and 5 different steady beam setting for night use. Also, there is a simple screw that fastens an amber faceplate to the front of the light for daytime use and can be removed quickly for nighttime use. It even has a mode for night use that will quickly switch from dim to full for use in oncoming traffic.

Now I had my choice and it took me a little while to get my lights, but I can say I am very happy with them now that I have ridden with them for about a month. You can find lots of info on build quality, lumens, flash modes, elsewhere. My review is on how traffic responds to my lights, which to me is the most important.

I've had lots of complements on my lights. I've had nothing but good comments from drivers on my afternoon rides. Most bike riders are equally as enthusiastic, but I do get a few sarcastic comments about them being perhaps too bright. Cars slow to go around me and they give me a lot of extra room, both in town and in the hills. I've noticed just about everyone slows down as they approach and they move aside. I must also point out that I frequently ride near Oakland, CA. For anyone familiar with the area, it is safe to say that that you better be prepared for the unexpected when in the area. While you can never feel safe in Oakland, I do notice that drivers do seem to notice me more as they give me a wider berth before cutting me off. What I like best about the lights is that I can now rider further away from cars on the right as cars will give me greater room when they pass on the left. No longer do I feel squeezed in. Even today, I saw a driver delay to let me pass before opening his car door. Drivers see me in town, that can't be a bad thing. 

It is just as effective in the hills. The problem up there is that there are a light of tight turns and the road can quickly change from daylight to shade which is often the bane of road riders as cars driving in sunlight can't see a bike in the shade just a few feet in front of them. My DS-500 is bright enough that even in deep shade, cars in the sun can still see me easily, even if they aren't looking in my general direction, the flash will still get their attention.

I know, I'm speaking to a tough audience. Spending a few hundred dollars on a taillight is crazy, its hard enough for many commuters to spend that much on their main light. Spending a $500 on a set of lights is a lot of money, but for me, if they save me from even one small accident, they have more than paid for themselves. My 3-week hospital stay cost over $300k, not including the cost of a new bike. Even a small accident, can have dire consequences for a cyclist. So what is $500 compared to that? Sure, I may never have seen the accident that the lights prevented, but isn't that the point? I can attest, you can do everything right on the road and still end up losing. Cars have daytime running lights for safety, isn't it time for bicyclists to consider the same thing?

The era of full-time bike lights is now possible, I for one hope more light manufacturers jump on board.

- Roger


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## Long Run Nick (Jun 13, 2010)

Nice write up I am on Stephen's waiting list for his 3rd production run. Very impressive lights.


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## juergenor (Mar 30, 2004)

Thanks - great posting.

I can fully confirm your experience - I am using Dinotte R400 with one or two MS-808E. Probably not as bright as your lights but still quite effective. I especially like the blinking pattern of the Dinotte lights - probably one of the best blinking patterns that I have found. Over the past years I had several drivers that stopped and complimented me on my lights wishing that all riders would use similar lights.


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## OldAusDigger (Apr 8, 2008)

Roger, I agree with your observations and have a similar attitude to you when it comes to daytime bike lights. I regard the proper use of them as a major safety enhancement.
I'm yet to get around to purchasing a DS-500 tail light - but I definately want one!
I do have the front light situation covered fairly well though, and can also report big changes to driver behaviour here in Sydney, which may not be as big as some American cities, but still it's a city of around 5 million and traffic is at time downright hostile to cyclists!
I have two Nightlightning IBlaast IX's mounted on my bars, and they have a combined real output of approx 5000 lumens (7200 claimed) on their max setting. They can be set to flash together in unison as if they were one light, and to have them flashing away out front means I get seen! This is especially important when passing through intersections.
It really does get the attention of everyone on the road!


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Roger Huston said:


> ....Cars have daytime running lights for safety, isn't it time for bicyclists to consider the same thing?
> 
> The era of full-time bike lights is now possible, I for one hope more light manufacturers jump on board.
> 
> - Roger


Well said Roger. I think you will find many people here agreeing with you, including me. Road safety is about getting people to notice you so that they don't kill you accidentally. 
With all the modern day distractions going on for people behind the wheel, we, the cyclist need every advantage we can get.

There are three known common ways to get someone's attention. You can tap them on the shoulder ( not going to work on a bike ), you can make lots of noise ( this could work but is illegal in most places and quite annoying to everyone involved ), Lastly you can create an increased visual presence. In times past just wearing bright clothing was thought to be enough. Like you, I believe times have changed. We need more...we need something that metaphorically reaches out and slaps the distracted driver in the face.

Beyond a doubt when I start doing more daytime road rides_ I intend to use a rear white ( or amber ) slow-strobe ( 1.5-2Hz ) I figure something in the 200-300 lumen range should be enough ._ Once the sun starts to set I can switch to red and to lower power levels.

Yeah, it will make me feel like a moron using lights during the day but it's better to be a LIVE SPECTACLE than a dead fool.


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> Yeah, it will make me feel like a moron using lights during the day but it's better to be a LIVE SPECTACLE than a dead fool.


I believe this is the biggest obstacle for having daytime running lights be commonplace within the biking community: our own fears on what other people may think. While many people can logically see the safety benefits of daytime lights, their hesitant to jump on the bandwagon mostly out of the perception that other riders will somehow look down upon them.

This was the point of my article. It only takes a few people to purposely stand out from the crowd and create a new path. Look how long daytime running lights took to become a reality in the US, it had been on the books for decades, in Sweden, they had been using them for 30-years, but once it started the transformation in the US quite rapidly.

Yes, I like the Design Shine lights and I am an advocate of their function. I chose them over the Dinotte lights, as I felt they were more flexible in their function and in my case, the taillight was much more noticeable, not only from the rear but from the side as well.

However, the goal of the article was not to push a particular brand of light over another. Stephen is just one man making lights out of his garage and while his lights are great, not everyone who wants one will be able to get one, but he has made a significant contribution to the industry, true daytime running lights, that if they catch on, can transform an industry.

The critical component here is demand, and that is where we come in. The only way we can overcome this stigma of daytime running lights as being "un cool" is to start riding with them and talking about them. Eventually, I would hope that as the bike industry is starting to make room in their frames for electronic shifters, maybe one day there will be room for built-in lighting.

I must say, we have a long road to travel. Most riders still only use little AAA powered "flashies" for night riding, which are nearly invisible in the daytime and the lights we are talking about are several hundred dollars. But it will be the early adopters, those of us willing to spend more money now on safety that will usher in an era where the mass production of lights can be cheaper and more available for all.

Imagine a day where every bike sold built in bike lights and what that would mean for the safety of our sport! Perhaps a few less of those "Please slow down, bicyclist killed here" memorials on the side of the road.

- Roger


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Roger Huston said:


> ...Imagine a day where every bike sold built in bike lights and what that would mean for the safety of our sport! Perhaps a few less of those "Please slow down, bicyclist killed here" memorials on the side of the road.
> 
> - Roger


Ideally I think it would be nice if all cars were required to have a "cyclist alert" receiver built into the dash. How it would work would be that all cyclists that chose to ride on the road would be required to use a small transponder that would send out a universal signal alerting anyone with a receiver that a cyclist was within 100ft of their vehicle. This is SO DOABLE NOW that it is pathetic.

As to those "bicyclist killed here" memorials, I have one of those just around the corner from where I live. It haunts me every time I ride past it....and I ride past it every day.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

Agree 100%
I have been using a blinkie light in my handlebar but not enough to get people's attention... I think I'll go out with my lupine next time ;-)


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> Ideally I think it would be nice if all cars were required to have a "cyclist alert" receiver built into the dash. How it would work would be that all cyclists that chose to ride on the road would be required to use a small transponder that would send out a universal signal alerting anyone with a receiver that a cyclist was within 100ft of their vehicle. This is SO DOABLE NOW that it is pathetic.


Interesting idea. However, I'm not sure just being alerted to the presence of a cyclist is enough to be effective. People would have buzzers going off all the time without knowing where the cyclist is located. Think of a fighter pilot suddenly getting a missile alert warning, he can't react until he knows from which direction the missile is coming from and by then, it could be too late. Perhaps some day, once HUD's are common place and every car has an active anti-collision system in place, could such an enhancement be a reality as not only would people be warned, but our location would be indicated as well on the display.

Until the day arrives where machines can take a more active roll in identifying dangers while driving, I'm going to take on a more active role in my visibility by riding with lights on every ride, lights bright enough to grab their attention away from whatever their looking at and put it on me.

- Roger


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## Long Run Nick (Jun 13, 2010)

One of the great things adopt being 68, soon to be 69, is for way more years than I can recall I have not ever been overly concerned with what other people think. I have probably gone overboard with my lights but I think I am worth it and I have absolutely no concern what other riders think. I have a DiNotte 800 amber light as well as HML 3 on the handle bar. I have an exposure Joystick on my helmet with the RedEye plugged into it as one of my rear 
lights. In addition, have the DiNotte 400 taillight and just added a Night Flux Redzone 4. Have these flashing on my daytime rides. At night I have the amber light in slow flash mode and RZ4 max flash. Oh, I,forgot to mention I slapped on a couple cheap LED spoke lights for night riding. Talk about "shock and awe". I do light up the night!! 
I have run for over 36 years and recently went over 75,000 miles running. Over the years I have learned defensive running. It is easier to dive out of the way running than it is on a bike. The lights help some. I realize there are no guarantees.
I was very impressed with Design Shine lights and more impressed with Stephen and his design concepts. Not sure where I will mount that tail light , but I will figure it out. Hey, it is not all bad being retired and having a little expendable income, if only I can keep my wife working.
In


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## OldAusDigger (Apr 8, 2008)

Nick, when you finally revieve your DS-500, you could quite possibly have the most fomidable tail light combination that it is possible to purchase.
Most of us here have read plenty about the indivdual merits of those tail lights that you own, but what I'd like to know is in pure brightness terms alone, how close to the Dinotte 400R (percentage wise) is the Red Zone 4?
We are aware that the main strength of the RZ-4 is its wide spread and effectiveness when viewed off angle, and the question might be sort of asking you compare to apples to oranges. But you're probably one of the few people that actually own both, so if you could share your opinion or better still post comparision photos it would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Digger.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Roger Huston said:


> Interesting idea. However, I'm not sure just being alerted to the presence of a cyclist is enough to be effective.* People would have buzzers going off all the time without knowing where the cyclist is located.*


Well...Yeah...( duh ) That's exactly the point. Before the buzzer/chime/voice alert/whatever goes off, Mr. or Ms. Smartphone hasn't a clue on what's going on around them. They hear the alert and say to themselves, "Oh, that's that dumb bike alert again, how annoying. "Okay, where are they at now"..."Oh, there they are coming up behind me on my right".

When the clueless get's a clue, they look for more clues...basic human nature. They still have to drive the car and not hit what they now know is there so unfortunately it's not a slam dunk.  Then again, few things in life are guaranteed. The more preventative measures available, the better the chance you have of not getting hit.

Right now we just have lights, common sense and our own two eyes. Since our eyes are limited in what they can see having more or better lighting is only going to help.


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## Roger Huston (Oct 3, 2011)

BBW said:


> Agree 100%
> I have been using a blinkie light in my handlebar but not enough to get people's attention... I think I'll go out with my lupine next time ;-)


Does the Lupine have a a variety of flash modes for daytime use? I know they are super bright lights and great for off-road use, I'm just wondering about their flexibility for daytime use, but as bright as those lights can go, I'm sure any flash mode will work.

BTW, I didn't mention this, but the DS-1300 front light has an acceptable flash mode for night use too. It is called lightning flash. The light is always on, but has a very short flash strobe to it. It gives me that little extra nighttime protection awareness protection but not enough to impact road visibility: I HATE potholes.

All you need now is a good taillight and you are all set.

- Roger


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*Great conversation*

Thanks Roger for bringing up the conversation. Your thoughts on daytime running lights are exactly why I've pushed so hard over the last year and half to make these lights a reality. With the "single" days long behind me and a young family to take care of, the desire to arm myself with a highly functional day/night lighting system kept moving higher on the priority list. Realizing that at this stage of the game only a very few will have the opportunity to try the DS lights, I would also whole-heartedly promote the use of any of the other effective daytime capable systems. So many times I see cyclists "hiding" in and out of the shadows on a two lane road, and think "Where are your LIGHTS!"

You have a very unique perspective on the dangers of riding on the road because of your past experience... one that I certainly wish you'd never had to endure, but what a blessing that you've been able to put it behind you and continue riding! I can only hope that your use of effective daytime lights will add that extra layer of protection against a careless driver and help you to stay safe on road for as long as you choose to ride.

I know from my own experiences, I'll never ride on the road again without them!

Thanks for your encouraging words!
Stephen


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## Long Run Nick (Jun 13, 2010)

OldAusDigger said:


> Nick, when you finally revieve your DS-500, you could quite possibly have the most fomidable tail light combination that it is possible to purchase.
> Most of us here have read plenty about the indivdual merits of those tail lights that you own, but what I'd like to know is in pure brightness terms alone, how close to the Dinotte 400R (percentage wise) is the Red Zone 4?
> We are aware that the main strength of the RZ-4 is its wide spread and effectiveness when viewed off angle, and the question might be sort of asking you compare to apples to oranges. But you're probably one of the few people that actually own both, so if you could share your opinion or better still post comparision photos it would be much appreciated.
> 
> ...


Hey Digger,
I just finished a daytime 26 mile ride with both the DiNotte 400 and RZ4 on max flashing mode. Cars were pulling over into the other lane on 2 lane roads, unfortunately it resulted in 2 head-on collisions, I just kept riding. JOKE!!
First, I have always realized how great the DiNotte 400 tail light is. Comparing the 2 in daylight I was even more impressed with the sharpness of the DiN and its' great flash pattern. The RZ4 is very noticeable, and as advertised, can be seen at more severe angles than the DiN. I hooked the RZ4 on the back of my seat bag. It actually pointed more down to the road, but as advertised, still very noticeable. I love both rear lights. The DS tail light may be overkill, but I plan to do more night time riding as it warms up. I finished my ride today the temp was 96. I just got a Amphipod reflective zinglet to add a little more notice ability. I will also use it when I run.
When I run in the dark, I use a head lamp and several little blinkies. Kind of got a thing for lights and being seen out there. After 75,000 miles of pure road running, I can attest that it works.
I am not the most tech savvy guy, but with some help I will post some pics and maybe star in a you tube movie. I have a Galaxy Note smart phone and an Ipad2 so it shouldn't be a problem. Oh, in case you were worried, I had my DiN amber light on slow flash and the 1000 lumen DiN headlight on slow flash. Oh yeah, the Exposure Joystick was on flash. Biggest pain is recharging all the batteries. Nick


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## rschultz101 (Oct 5, 2009)

uphill battle ! 
still see , plenty of riders with no lights , or just a flashy in back,...

for daytime lights, the weight-weenies will kick in,...
mtb riders, don't even leave the clamp on, even if it is removable from light, aka cat eye,...
then the styling factor, aerodynamic ,.... the geek factor, since it's not fashionable,
and the price factor. On price, don't understand, if the bike is a 5k road bike, should not be an issue.
all of the above, the mini knog, seams to be favorite among those,... go figure.
ride only mtb, started riding my lights at daytime, mostly for burn in test.
had a nice encounter, where a quad made room for me at daytime, was a ranger, just wanted to see if it is motorized. Hiking folks, seam to notice you sooner . and with dark patches, you get a little extra light in the technical section. 
I do not like flashers, even if effective. 
oh , another big stumbling block, the cable, most, don't like a cabled tail light,...
and then the charging factor!! most, can't handle charging AA, never mind , to carry spares,...
it's an extra responsibility, kinda work...
Do think it's an great idea !!!
think, a more slick, smaller daytime light, be more acceptable.
maybe a stem / seat post light, with no visible cable.
for the front, a yellow light be more useful, since a white will not be much visible. 
and most riders, think the yellow is not fashionable, as it reminds them of the old halogen,....
ultimately in the future, be a 3D hologram projection, of the Hulk on a bicycle.
I'am sure, nobody would want to hit a Hulk, to get there shiny hybrid scratched up.
at that time, probably have a bulletproof shield, with a cold-fusion reactor in the size of matchbox...


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## ThinkBike (Jun 16, 2010)

+1 on lights during the day. Cars are now actually stopping instead of pulling out in front of me. My light is about 2200 (theoretical) lumens so it's fairly visible on blink mode.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

rschultz101 said:


> uphill battle !
> 
> for daytime lights, the weight-weenies will kick in,...
> ..... the mini knog, seams to be favorite among those,... go figure.
> .


Yep, I understand. Personally I don't want my cockpit to be littered with too much "bulky" junk. It's different at night because at night lights are a must. This is why the "w/weenies" like the knog lights. They're fine for being seen in the early evening but other than that not really good for day time riding.

I'd like to see something in a compact self-contained light similar to a Moon Shield but using a cool white XP-G emitter and driving it so it outputs about 150 lumen. That should be bright enough for use as a "see me" light during the day and still have decent run time as long as the flash sequence is long enough. A light like that could have use either front or back. Keep it small and unobtrusive and the roadies will buy.

While on the subject of "small/ knog-frog like lights....Anyone know what the brightest knog-type light outputs and what brand is the brightest. I have one of those cheap D/X versions but anything using button cells really can't be that bright. Really good only as an early evening "see me" light. As such I rarely use it.


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## jamesf (May 23, 2012)

Cat-man-do said:


> While on the subject of "small/ knog-frog like lights....Anyone know what the brightest knog-type light outputs and what brand is the brightest. I have one of those cheap D/X versions but anything using button cells really can't be that bright. Really good only as an early evening "see me" light. As such I rarely use it.


Hi Cat-man-do,

Whilst it doesn't answer your question, I've got the Knog Strobe lights that stay on the bike year around but they're really no use at all in the daytime and at night time they're only good to help being seen, not for seeing by. I can't comment as I haven't used them but Knog have two others that have 2-3 times the lumen output of my Strobes; the Boomer with AAA's and the Blinder with rechargeables.

I'm still very happy with the Strobes for my intended purpose (additive lights or last ditch backup that stay on the bike) because they weigh nothing, even with lots of spare batteries, and take up minimal space on the bike but I can't imagine anything that small being a day-time solution.

Cheers,
James


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

jamesf said:


> Hi Cat-man-do,
> 
> Whilst it doesn't answer your question, I've got the Knog Strobe lights that stay on the bike year around but they're really no use at all in the daytime and at night time they're only good to help being seen, not for seeing by. I can't comment as I haven't used them but Knog have two others that have 2-3 times the lumen output of my Strobes; the Boomer with AAA's and the Blinder with rechargeables.


Hey James, I did look at the Knog line-up and some do look interesting. I think the brightest is 80 lumen. That might be enough for some added day time "see me" visibility. It really is hard to tell though without doing some testing. I'd be more comfortable with something in the 150 lumen range. Looks like I'll have to look into it when I get a chance. In the mean time I'm still in the market for a nice bright little white flasher that is compact and rechargeable.

The other day when I was working I got thinking about day time riding lights. As I was driving along the road suddenly went into a line of trees and all of a sudden the road was much darker. It is amazing what shade can do even on a bright sun-shiny day. Yep, a good day time running flasher could definitely add some visibility when riding on a road with a good number of trees around.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

B&M do a few dynamo lights that have DRLs
Busch & Müller: LICHT24
Busch & Muller dynamo bicycle lights


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

znomit said:


> B&M do a few dynamo lights that have DRLs
> Busch & Müller: LICHT24
> Busch & Muller dynamo bicycle lights


I clicked on the links and gave um' a look-see. Interesting design. I almost had to laugh though because when I ran the pro-mo video they show two riders riding side by side. You would of expected the one with the light to almost jump out at you but it doesn't.  
Perhaps if it has a flash mode that might have been more noticeable.

After that I looked at their English version web site. It seems the Germans seem to think 60 ft. ( 18M ) is enough throw for a bike on the road. Well...then again it is marketed as a commuter light. They also mention that when it gets dark the secondary LED's dim because they claim they would otherwise blind on-coming traffic at night. That just made me laugh.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Cat-man-do said:


> They also mention that when it gets dark the secondary LED's dim because they claim they would otherwise blind on-coming traffic at night. That just made me laugh.


German lighting standards are no laughing matter. :nono: 

Actually I saw some always on reelights mid day in europe and was impressed enough to pick up a set.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

znomit said:


> ....Actually I saw some always on reelights mid day in europe and was impressed enough to pick up a set.


Very interesting. I like the generator/magnet set-up. Can you give a Lumen output comparison? The price is right. If it gives a decent output I might buy one myself.
Not sure how the flash models work. Reelight website says flashes 300 per minute @40kph.
I would like a flash every 1.5 sec or so. That's the thing about lights that flash. Very hard to find one that suits your personal taste.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Cat-man-do said:


> Very interesting. I like the generator/magnet set-up. Can you give a Lumen output comparison?


Low lumen be seen only lights cat.


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## Sandrenseren (Dec 29, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> Ideally I think it would be nice if all cars were required to have a "cyclist alert" receiver built into the dash. How it would work would be that all cyclists that chose to ride on the road would be required to use a small transponder that would send out a universal signal alerting anyone with a receiver that a cyclist was within 100ft of their vehicle. This is SO DOABLE NOW that it is pathetic.


Hate to say it, but that is a bad idea.

In a country where bike commuters are a rare sight it might have a tiny bit of merit, but the system would have to be fitted to every car, new and old and some people would turn it off or not bother to install one, not to mention defective units. At the same time it would give the bike rider false safety, maybe the car is fitted with a beeper, maybe it's not..

In a country like mine where half the population owns a bike and commutes the warning would be a constant noise emitter in any town. There is just always bikes around. Try imagining driving through an american town with a beeper that went of every time a pedestrian was withing 100 yards, it would be a noise hell and completely pointless as it was constantly on.



Cat-man-do said:


> As to those "bicyclist killed here" memorials, I have one of those just around the corner from where I live. It haunts me every time I ride past it....and I ride past it every day.


In my country some of the really accident prone spots have permanent chalk outlines of riders painted on the tarmac. Similarly a campaign ran where a red circle on the tarmac marked every bike involved accident.

Permanent bike lights aren't a bad idea as it helps car and truck drivers to see you, but it's not the real solution. My country has a lot of bike lanes and pretty excellent circumstances for bike riders, still a lot of accidents happen especially with cars and trucks doing right turns and hitting bikes. The drivers of cars and trucks have a hard time seeing bikes, that's just the nature of things when you have to rely on small mirrors to spot stuff behind you.

The key to biker safety is for the bike rider to drive defensively. The bike rider has excellent view of what happens ahead and have to anticipate and react to not being seen. Learn to read the traffic, learn to "guess" which cars are going to turn despite forgetting to turn on the indicators, foresee that a car that recently pulled into a parking spot will probably have an inattentive driver opening the door right in front of you and so on. When you see those markings on the tarmac indicating a high accident rate, make sure to take extra precaution.

Just like everything else in traffic you can never be perfectly safe, but you can significantly improve your odds of surviving by the way you handle yourself out there.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Sandrenseren said:


> *Hate to say it, but that is a bad idea.
> 
> In a country where bike commuters are a rare sight it might have a tiny bit of merit, but the system would have to be fitted to every car, new and old and some people would turn it off or not bother to install one, not to mention defective units. At the same time it would give the bike rider false safety, maybe the car is fitted with a beeper, maybe it's not..*
> 
> ...


I'm amazed at how fast you are willing to flush this idea. "In Our Country", our cars are fitted with all kinds of safety lights, bells and buzzers. If I don't put my seat belt on my car will chime indefinitely. I drive a VW, if ANYTHING goes wrong a written warning light comes on in my dash and won't stop until I fix whatever happens to be wrong. Yes, it sometimes is a PITA but that is part of modern life.

Few people would go out of the way to disable such a feature especially if it was required by law. That's because when you take your car in to have the emissions checked every couple years they now plug into your on-board computer. Disable the bike-warning feature and they would know.

If implemented correctly the system could work._ Even your car GPS could be set-up to actually highlight the feature. Now wouldn't that be interesting._ If you live in a area of high bicycle use the unit could also contain a timed mute button ( for the sake of the argument lets say 5 minutes ). The warning light would continue to go off but the audible warning muted for a short duration. Keep in mind not all cyclist would be willing to buy the system for their bike. Whither or not it would be required by law to ride a bike on the road would be set by local jurisdictions.

Now with everything I just said, the system would only be designed to be a "heads-up warning". Warnings can be ignored. Still, everything I said has to do exactly with what you said in your last sentence ( which I highlighted ). In this age of heightened driver distraction having a system that would increase your odds of "Not getting hit" would be a big plus. As a cyclist who frequents the road on occasion I still have to ride smart as you indicated. That much hasn't changed nor would it. Regardless, it sure would make me smile to pull up to an intersection on a warm summer day and hear all the audible warnings going off. 

If you still disagree...fine...whatever...but like MLK Jr. once said, "I have a dream". In my case it is about increased cyclist safety. Can I hear an Amen?


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## Titus Maximus (Jan 3, 2004)

znomit said:


> Actually I saw some always on reelights mid day in europe and was impressed enough to pick up a set.


Those are interesting. I've often wondered why one doesn't see any dynamo lights with a flashing function. I assume it has something to do with the lights being AC driven rather than DC, but I am not electrically literate enough to understand why. Maybe you can illuminate me?


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## Sandrenseren (Dec 29, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> If you still disagree...fine...whatever...but like MLK Jr. once said, "I have a dream". In my case it is about increased cyclist safety. Can I hear an Amen?


I don't mind rider safety, I just don't think your idea would work. I don't think a warning light that is more or less constantly on in towns makes the driver the least bit more focused about bike riders. In fact I think that once the warning light bulb dies some drivers will take it as a sure sign that there are no bikes around and look even less before making a turn.

I honestly think you'd be much better of just strapping a high power klaxon horn to your bike and running it non-stop, that way you'll KNOW that the drivers hear you coming, rather than just hoping that the car have a working warning light/buzzer installed and that the driver are paying attention to it.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

jamesf said:


> Hi Cat-man-do,
> 
> Whilst it doesn't answer your question, I've got the Knog Strobe lights that stay on the bike year around but they're really no use at all in the daytime and at night time they're only good to help being seen, not for seeing by. I can't comment as I haven't used them but Knog have two others that have 2-3 times the lumen output of my Strobes; the Boomer with AAA's and the Blinder with rechargeables.
> 
> ...


Hey James, I know I already commented about this but I wanted to readdress.
Today while shopping at the LBS I noticed a light very similar to the Knog. I was able to try it out in the store and was duly impressed so I decided to buy one. It is the *Axiom Ultra Spark*.
Output on high is listed as 70 lumens. Very nice light with an ultra small footprint. I know 70 lumen doesn't sound like a lot but in complete darkness you can actual see with this light. Definitely makes a great self-contained back up light and "see me", light.

When I bought it the sky was a bit over cast but still very light out. I set the lamp on flash and walked off about a 100 ft. to view the output. Not bad, not bad at all for something this small. Later tonight I'll go out and try it out to see how it works as a "let me see" light.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Sandrenseren said:


> I don't mind rider safety, I just don't think your idea would work. I don't think a warning light that is more or less constantly on in towns makes the driver the least bit more focused about bike riders. In fact I think that once the warning light bulb dies some drivers will take it as a sure sign that there are no bikes around and look even less before making a turn.
> 
> I honestly think you'd be much better of just strapping a high power klaxon horn to your bike and running it non-stop, that way you'll KNOW that the drivers hear you coming, rather than just hoping that the car have a working warning light/buzzer installed and that the driver are paying attention to it.


Sandrenseren...you are definitely a hard case, no doubt about it. 
Think about it a bit. If you live in an area where every time you turn the corner a cyclist is somewhere close by then yes, you would get so use to the light flashing that you would ignore it....HOWEVER....You already know that you live in an area with heavy bike traffic SO..._you already have a heightened awareness of bicycles._, which is what the warning light/chime is trying to accomplish. That being the case, persoanally you don't need the warning light.

Now try to imagine some one else coming into your neighborhood that is not aware of the heavy bike traffic. Suddenly, they hear bells and see warning lights going off. The longer they see that warning light they suddenly realize, "Hey, there are lots of bicycles around here". Even if they mute the warning they now know there are plenty of bikes in the area in which case the technology has done it's job and given the driver a "heads-up".

Where I work there are a couple people who continue to defy technological advances as well as the law. I know this because I sometimes drive their vehicles and find that they leave their seat belts clipped across the seat ( which means they are not using the seat belt ) :bluefrown: What can you say about someone that does that? I don't know about you but it ain't, "Gee what a great idea, I think I'll do the same". :idea:

Just last night I saw a clip on T.V. about a car that can drive itself. Yep, it's coming. They're programming it to identify everything, cars, trucks, people ( adults and children ), cyclist, even animals. Well what do you think, will it work? Who knows but the people who went to MIT have to do something with their time. They already have a car being sold that will sense an impending collision ( back or front ) and stop the car. In the mean time I hope they don't forget the software that automatically knows when someone from Al Qaeda is driving a vehicle. That will make drone strikes much easier. :ihih:

(* OH, almost forgot. No need to worry about a warning light burning out. LED's last almost forever. Even if it did go out, no worries. They will catch it at your next emission test.  )


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## BeastRider (Oct 20, 2011)

To chime in on this one. I run LED's front and rear on mine. Works good, are relatively cheap and I have a rechargeable battery for all of them. The "weight weenies" would have a royal fit about mine. That really doesn't bother me as I am not riding for them anyway.

To me it's all about being safe. The more I can stand out while I am riding the less chance I am going to to have to be in an accident. Better to be safe than to be sorry.

I know that there are a lot of detractors out there that will claim that it's far too much weight to add for a "fast" ride. But I am definitely not about the speed factor. And singletrack? I doubt that I'll be riding mine there anytime soon.

I spend a LOT of time on the road and, quite often, I see people before sunrise, who have NO light of any kind. Usually it's someone that evidently thinks they are in training for the Tour....Well, the car that hits you will take care of that in short order.

*No weight concerns with THIS ride.....









My LED setup. Photo taken shortly after sundown.....






*


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## Sandrenseren (Dec 29, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> Sandrenseren...you are definitely a hard case, no doubt about it.


Hehe, busted!



Cat-man-do said:


> Now try to imagine some one else coming into your neighborhood that is not aware of the heavy bike traffic. Suddenly, they hear bells and see warning lights going off. The longer they see that warning light they suddenly realize, "Hey, there are lots of bicycles around here". Even if they mute the warning they now know there are plenty of bikes in the area in which case the technology has done it's job and given the driver a "heads-up".


..or they thought "Huh? What the hell is that noise?!?" and while they were busy looking at their dashboard trying to figure out what went wrong and find the off switch, they would hit a couple of cyclist and some pedestrians.. 



Cat-man-do said:


> Just last night I saw a clip on T.V. about a car that can drive itself. Yep, it's coming. They're programming it to identify everything, cars, trucks, people ( adults and children ), cyclist, even animals. Well what do you think, will it work?


It'll probably work while the car is new, but 10 years later when everyone has learned that it's okay to cross the street without looking because all the clever cars figure out to stop on their own without hitting anyone, along comes "Hank" in his old banger of a car where he has tried to mend the clever electronics on his own... THUD!

Which brings me back to the beginning. Yes you can invent all sorts of clever gizmos or add a billion mirrors on cars, but that doesn't make the people driving the car any better at what they do. Adding warnings doesn't help a driver that is already overloaded by answering text messages, listening to the radio and the gps while being stressed out about being late for a meeting.

The key to surviving on a bike lies with the cyclist - make sure the car driver has spotted you, never ride on the inside of a long haul truck when you know they have a snowballs chance in hell of spotting you, get off you bike an walk across at the zebra crossing if in doubt - in short, expect every car to be driven by a stressed out mum, too busy yelling at her kids in the back seat to pay any attention to you..


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*DiNotte 200L: Daytime refit with Amber lens*

About four days ago I was sitting at my home computer desk and had an epiphany; My computer desk is littered with all sorts of various "bike light" related stuff. As I was looking at an old DiNotte 200L, all of a sudden I noticed an old prescription bottle sitting next to it. _That was when it dawned on me that the bottle was "amber" and almost the same size as the 200L._ :ihih: The 200L light engine fit right inside, snug-as-a-bug-in-a-rug. 

That got me think'in...Cut the bottom of the bottle out to make a lens!...( which is exactly what I did ). The crazy thing is the bottom of the bottle looks almost like an optic which is cool.

Right now I'm still in the testing phase to see how well it can be seen during the day. Initial tests are promising. Still I want to see what it will look like on a bright sunny day from a quarter mile away. Right now I'm not sure that just 200 lumen is bright enough to be "noticed" a quarter mile away on a bright sunny day. The idea is that I would use this on the rear of my road bike for remote/rural road rides where there are long straight stretches of two lane country roads ( with lots of truck traffic )

The other option I have is to use the ( bottle lens ) on one of my Ultrafire 501-B torches , in which case the lens just happens to fit over the top of the torch perfectly ( with the 200L there is about 2mm of extra room ). The torch is brighter but doesn't have the nice flash menu of the DiNotte nor is there an easy mounting option for the rear of the bike. 


Last but not least I want something small ( unobtrusive ) and easy to mount ( which is why I favor the 200L ) If I get something to work I'll let you know. In the mean time the amber prescription bottles come in a lot of sizes. I have various sizes to work with. If I wanted to I could put one on a Bikeray IV !...Now wouldn't that make an atomic rear amber _daytime_ flasher! :yikes:


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## BikeRayUSA-Michael (Apr 4, 2012)

Cat-man-do said:


> Last but not least I want something small ( unobtrusive ) and easy to mount ( which is why I favor the 200L ) If I get something to work I'll let you know. In the mean time the amber prescription bottles come in a lot of sizes. I have various sizes to work with. If I wanted to I could put one on a Bikeray IV !...Now wouldn't that make an atomic rear amber _daytime_ flasher! :yikes:


Here's my daytime running light set-up Cat-Man-Do - 
Bicycle Daytime Running Lights

I feel so much more confident on the road. I take them everywhere and even sold a couple to a couple who saw me with them riding up to my local coffee shop 

I like the idea of the amber color but, do you think that would take away from drivers noticing you? Or do you think it would help them see you? I'm personally leaning to no colored lens but then again - I have not tried it with a colored lens yet.

Can't wait to see what you can up with - with just a prescription bottle


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*Filter lenses*

Just from my own experience, using colored lenses works really well, but you need to start with a very high output full spectrum white (think 1000 lumens or more) in order to filter and still have the intensity that you need to seriously punch through all the distractions vying for drivers' attention. AND when you have a high lumen light to start with, you need some very good quality translucent material for doing the filtering. If the optical clarity of the material is not very good, then a high powered white LED can easily create enough heat, absorbed by the filter, to melt the material if it's not capable of handling high temps. Just something to consider. For a 200 lumen light, however, I would think that heating wouldn't be an issue.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

BikeRayUSA-Michael said:


> I like the idea of the amber color but, do you think that would take away from drivers noticing you? Or do you think it would help them see you? I'm personally leaning to no colored lens but then again - I have not tried it with a colored lens yet....
> :


So far this is just an experiment. Since I'm using it on the back of the bike I want it to be road compliant. The plastic I'm using looks very yellow when flashing although a clear lens would no doubt have the better throw. I'm also considering sending in my old 200L and going with an Dinotte XM-L 1 upgrade . To bad they don't make an Amber version of the XM-L. 

BTW I like the Speed II on the rear. Won't work on my bike like that though. If I mount a light on my seat post it ends up hitting my leg when I ride. DiNotte makes a mount that works with any O-ring style light so I'll likely be getting one of those.



pethelman said:


> Just from my own experience,* using colored lenses works really well, but you need to start with a very high output full spectrum white (think 1000 lumens or more) in order to filter and still have the intensity that you need to seriously punch through all the distractions vying for drivers' attention.* AND when you have a high lumen light to start with, you need some very good quality translucent material for doing the filtering. If the optical clarity of the material is not very good, then a high powered white LED can easily create enough heat, absorbed by the filter, to melt the material if it's not capable of handling high temps. Just something to consider. For a 200 lumen light, however, I would think that heating wouldn't be an issue.


I agree, the more power the better but that means a bigger light ( physically speaking ) and a larger battery. I'm probably going to make a lens for one of my Bikerays just for kicks. Who knows I just might be willing to go "big".

One of the other issues I forgot to mention is that it would be a real "Plus" to be able to turn the light on/off with out too much effort. To do that you need a lamp that has memory ( 200L OK )...Easy to turn the 200L on ( two quick pushes ) but turning it off means press and hold. Not easy to do while riding on the bike ( with the lamp mounted behind you ).

Tonight while doodling around I managed to mount my 501-B torch to my seat rail using just a couple pieces of Velcro. Looks like it's pretty stable so it might work. Add to this that the torch can be easily turned on/off with a single click and yes it has memory so it stays in flash mode. The button is right under the seat so easy to reach. :thumbsup: As long as I'm not on a road with high speed traffic I'm likely not going to use the torch. Now if all this works I'm likely going to order me another 5-mode XML drop in as my last one has too fast a strobe mode. The only problem now is I have to remember how to configure the velcro straps when I put the torch back on my seat.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

*Amber lens refit continued:*

I took the* 501-B torch* ( with amber lens ) out today for a spin. I rode up to the local school where I could get some clear sunlight with no shade around. I walked away from the bike and got a good 400ft
( 122M ) away. I am very pleased with what I am seeing. The light appears very yellow and very bright. I tried to take a video clip with the smart phone but the camera on these things are not really great for viewing things from a distance. It was much more visible with the naked eye.

After the walk-out test I rode around my local area to see how traffic would react. It did seem to me that the vehicular traffic was giving me much more space. This is giving me much more confidence when I take the road bike out in the day.

The nice thing about this set-up is it serves two purposes for me. It mounts under the seat fairly easily and when the sun starts to set I put the Moon Shield on the seat post and then put the torch on my helmet. 

Continuing along the same line of thought,_ I just found out that the front end of a *Bikeray III* fits just inside a larger prescription bottle._.:rockon: Not a perfect fit but the BR III has a tapered front end so I should be able to rig something up without too much problem. I figure I can cut out a lens for the Ray III, use a little tape to keep it in place and it's ready to go. Then all I have to do is buy a rear mount from DiNotte or make one myself ( in which case I have some ideas ). I figure the Ray III puts out an actual 750 lumen so maybe about 650 lumen with the lens. Still that output will be awesome as an amber flasher.


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## MS150Rider66 (Feb 10, 2010)

Roger Huston said:


> Hello,
> 
> To me biking is not about right or wrong, but winning and losing. In an accident, it makes little difference if you right because we always lose. I was in one such accident a few years ago and I sure don't want to repeat it.
> 
> ...


 I own the same lights and I am so happy with them. To me it is like buying insurance,but cheaper. We need to be seen from far away as it's only seconds before the car is near you passing. It won't save us from that distracted driver that is busy texting or changing radio stations but they can't say they could not see such a bright light. I live in the #1 state for cyclist and pedestrian death ,Florida


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MS150Rider66 said:


> I own the same lights and I am so happy with them. To me it is like buying insurance,but cheaper. We need to be seen from far away as it's only seconds before the car is near you passing. It won't save us from that distracted driver that is busy texting or changing radio stations but they can't say they could not see such a bright light. I live in the #1 state for cyclist and pedestrian death ,Florida


Goodness! You really dug this thread up ( last post being a year ago ).  When I started reading what I wrote on my last post I had to try to remember just what I was talking about. :lol:

Yes, nice to have something that can help with "daytime awareness". I still think your best bet for getting seen is just to wear a good "Daytime yellow" jersey BUT...lights can certainly add something to the mix.

Funny but this year I've noticed more people using lights ( steady or flashing ) in the daytime. I doubt that doing so will become the status quo but it's nice to know that more people are doing things that add to their safety.

Currently I am continuing to use the torch I have mounted to my seat rail which adds to my rear visibility. I have it upgraded with a custom ( over-driven ) drop-in module outfitted with an amber XP-E2 LED and a multi-menu driver that gives me lots of flash options. My favorite flash mode is the , "Multi-burst-pause" mode. In this mode the torch has a series of high intensity strobe like flashes and then pauses. I like that. I think it's a real "attention getter". All of the rear lights I use have memory and can be operated ( turned on or off ) while riding. For me this gives me the option of being able to use them ( on the fly ) when I feel the need for more "see me" visibility.


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## MS150Rider66 (Feb 10, 2010)

Cat-man-do said:


> Goodness! You really dug this thread up ( last post being a year ago ).  When I started reading what I wrote on my last post I had to try to remember just what I was talking about. :lol:
> 
> Yes, nice to have something that can help with "daytime awareness". I still think your best bet for getting seen is just to wear a good "Daytime yellow" jersey BUT...lights can certainly add something to the mix.
> 
> ...


 LOL Cat-Man, The reason you see me on posts from a year ago or so is because I went searching on brightest rear lights under the search window, so I am just writing some comments now.


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