# 06 Highline image



## turnerbikes (Apr 12, 2004)

Well thanks to opinions some of you shared last fall, here is the free ride frame that we will produce this summer. The image that you see is almost ready for production. It will have 8" of travel with a 15" BB with a 22.5" fork and 27" overall diameter tire, 66 head angle and 72 seat angle. The many testers that rode the ugly assed mule last were all happy with the geometry as listed here, but the chainstay was too long so we trimmed it to 17.25" The BB is a 83mm shell with a 150 x 12mm rear end. The frame will come with an aluminium axle and nut, with the nut acting as deraileur hanger as well. For those using the saint rear derailer it will bolt right on in place of the Turner hanger, with the saint steel axle or the Turner al one. The pivots like the proto will be full needle bearings with seals and grease fittings as you can see in the image. 
I spent a lot of time on mass centralization. This is the medium and has 31" standover height measured mid top tube. The tooling has been ordered and tubing is sourced. Just for the record this is a Turner and therefore will be 100% U.S. made. At the rate we are moving it should be shipping before the show. It has been lightened up from the 13lb mule as well. I will not quote a weight untill there is a real frame made to put on the scale, no projected weight BS. 

Whata ya think?

David Turner


----------



## pdirt (Jan 12, 2004)

Looks sickly.... I hope my boy Alloy gets one!

BTW... what length/stroke shock? Any brand specific that it will ship with?


----------



## Alpenglow (Feb 5, 2004)

*Looks amazing*

Looks like I'll be getting a new friend for my 5 Spot. What size fork or AC height did you guys use to measure the HA? I am trying to stick with a 7" Slider up front.

Thanks


----------



## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

Nice to see you guys work so hard with rider input. 

BB might be a litte high for me but the shorter chainstay is a big plus. Sounds like you guys have outdone yourselves with the rear bolt design. Can't wait to see one.....or better yet ride one.

When you say "show" are you talking interbike 05?

Good work!!


----------



## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

Alpenglow said:


> Looks like I'll be getting a new friend for my 5 Spot. What size fork or AC height did you guys use to measure the HA? I am trying to stick with a 7" Slider up front.
> 
> Thanks


That's the 22.5"

Edit: I just realized something..........no front derailleur? I thought that was a priority.


----------



## ebxtreme (Jan 6, 2004)

*Dave, question about the chainstays.*

First off, it looks great and I'm sure all of the turner homers are chomping at the bit for this one.

You mentioned that you got the chainstays to 17.25" which is amazing considering the horst link. With that length, is there any kind of a restriction on the tire size that you know of (i.e. will a tire hit the seattube or the front der.)?

Cheers,
EB


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2005)

Beautiful.


----------



## slayer2003 (Jan 28, 2004)

Sweet.
Get this to be around 10 - 10.5 lbs for a large and I'll buy one.


----------



## Acadian (Jan 1, 2004)

wow...that looks MUCH better than the one that was at Interbike this year!!

Great work Dave!! Like kidwoo said, the BB is a tad high - but short chainstay's rock.

I see the cable guides on the side there - I think it would look cleaner if they were on the top of the downtube or under the Top Tube (not all on the same side).

can't wait to see and/or ride one!


----------



## Peeshy86 (Nov 23, 2004)

Very nice looking frame. I like the different derailleur options as well. The rocker on the swingarm looks especially eye catching. Overall looks like a great frame. Any projected price?


----------



## turnerbikes (Apr 12, 2004)

*answers*

Fox DHX 5.0 coil shock. 2.75 stroke x 8.75 long

It will take a front deraileur, that is a priority for the project and 6 others!

After much research it seems that 15" BB was pretty much middle of the road for a 8x8

All the big forks are at least 8 now , so that is the 22.5 dim. Seems that the 888 and the 40 are the rulers.

That is THIS years production!!! What a shock I know.

The frame will clear a 27" diameter tire, depending on brand that could be a 2.5 or a 2.7 or a 3" As with all my designs, tire clearance is a major focus of the design. Mountainbikes, not road bikes! With a big tire on, it will still have mud clearance, as most of you don't live in the dez. If anyone has a DHR then you know what kinda tire clearance this will have, anyone have photo to post.The tire will only clear the seat tube at full compression by a little over 4mm. Front deraileur is not in danger.

DT


----------



## NorKal (Jan 13, 2005)

I'll take mine in black thank you very much....


----------



## Acadian (Jan 1, 2004)

turnerbikes said:


> That is a priority for the project and 6 others!
> DT


 can you please elaborate?


----------



## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

very nice, and a very elegant way of getting a full seat tube in there, although i'm curious about the stiffness of the upper link being a split design. And 15" doesnt sound all that high for the purpose of the bike, plus its not like you cant cheat with the sag anyways...i guess those guys dont have alot of rocks where they're from.

btw, what CAD program do you use to design?


----------



## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

Quit making so many badass bikes I can't afford please. Thank you.

Don't take my whining as dissatisfaction. Quite the contrary. That thing looks great and has some very good numbers for it's purpose.

Anybody wanna buy a norco shore?


----------



## Dogboy (Jan 9, 2004)

Beautiful. It sounds like everything has been well thought out. If you make it, I will buy one


----------



## turnerbikes (Apr 12, 2004)

*6 others*

There are probably only 6 guys that will actually run a ft. deraileur on a 8x8 bike. BUT it will work well for the small % that actually use it.

I know that the finish will be available in raw. Any other is up in the air.

I will look at the center top of down tube for cables. That is a great suggestion.


----------



## Acadian (Jan 1, 2004)

ouuu...Me likey RAW!!! 

I really can't wait to see that bike in the flesh - actually kind of glad you took the time to re-design it. In my opinion looks MUCH nicer than the original Highline.

Keep up the great work and thanks for giving us a sneak peak!


----------



## Lucky7 (Aug 19, 2004)

Wow Dave, I think it looks fantastic! I particularly like how the rear end looks to keep the mass low and you trimmed down the appearance of the suspension plates at the top of the "seat stays". It looks cleaner and more refined than any of the previous renditions. The less tank like headtube junction is also an asthetic plus in my mind. Bravo. Are there available colors yet, price, or delivery date projected yet?

Bryan


----------



## e<i>o (May 22, 2004)

turnerbikes said:


> There are probably only 6 guys that will actually run a ft. deraileur on a 8x8 bike. BUT it will work well for the small % that actually use it.
> 
> I know that the finish will be available in raw. Any other is up in the air.
> 
> I will look at the center top of down tube for cables. That is a great suggestion.


OK great. Looks great. I likey......BUT.......(drum roll).........ARE YOU MAKING AN XL AVAILABLE FOR US GIANTS? (say yes  )


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 29, 2003)

Way to go Dave!

Looks sweet. I like the changes and all the numbers sound great. Looks like that bike will be a great FRer that will still be very competitive at an occasional DH race.

We just received a batch of 6 Packs today. Very nice also. Have you tried a 6 Pack with an RP3?


----------



## Trond (Mar 7, 2004)

aw crap, that's too nice!!

Please tell me it fits in fine with my other friends 
Zion 853 EBB SS
DMR Trailstar
Turner 5 Spot
*Turner Highline?*
Ventana El Cuervo

MUST RESIST!!


----------



## cheezwhip (Aug 6, 2004)

I wonder if you can race a freeride bike? 

Looks sick Dave!


----------



## MikeyOrange (Feb 25, 2005)

*'06 highline*



turnerbikes said:


> There are probably only 6 guys that will actually run a ft. deraileur on a 8x8 bike. BUT it will work well for the small % that actually use it.
> 
> I know that the finish will be available in raw. Any other is up in the air.
> 
> I will look at the center top of down tube for cables. That is a great suggestion.


well, i guess i'd be one of the six that put a front d on...

anyways, put the cable guides on the bottom of the top tube... it's away from mud and krap unlike the downtube and provides better lines for the derailleurs and brake; plus it's stealthier.

frame looks sweet Dave!


----------



## BillT (Dec 24, 2003)

Oh no! I think I may know how my bonus for next year will be spent.


----------



## incubus (Jan 20, 2004)

I want, I want, I want.

I agree with Acadian about the cable routing.

Also, is that a 1.5" headtube on there?


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2005)

What about doing internal cable routing?....that would be trick.


----------



## j6105 (Apr 10, 2004)

*hmm*

horrible photoshop but maybe something like this. Last two brackets need to be moved closer to BB but you get the idea. Sweet bike. I would buy a light and efficient Dual slalom version.


----------



## cave dweller (Feb 15, 2005)

turnerbikes said:


> I will look at the center top of down tube for cables. That is a great suggestion.


Yep, run them on the top of the bottom tube DHR style. Having three cables down the side will ruin the look of the bike and make it really easy to damage in a crash.

I am assuming the swinglink is three peices to keep costs down, the only thing i would consider, in terms of stiffness, is to put in a hex axle type thing like on the new V10 to help the link resist twisting and to add stiffness to the rear. If is just a bolt that link will kind of flexy.

Also, you should consider putting in another mounting hole so people can run it at say 7 or 8 inches of travel like what was originally planned. A bike that has that adjustment combined with a fox 40 would be sweet.

-Matt


----------



## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

something like this would be a little cleaner IMO, will work well being mirrored for the brake and the derailler, and doesnt cross pivots or get in the way of stuff. The loop between the frame and seatstay shouldnt need to be so big either


----------



## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

cave dweller said:


> Also, you should consider putting in another mounting hole so people can run it at say 7 or 8 inches of travel like what was originally planned. A bike that has that adjustment combined with a fox 40 would be sweet.
> 
> -Matt


 a bit late, he asked that question here months ago 

the link does look like it could be a flex point, but a minor point in the scheme of things. Doesnt need to be a Hex tho, i dont think that accomplishes all that much exept for looking neato


----------



## cave dweller (Feb 15, 2005)

zedro said:


> a bit late, he asked that question here months ago
> 
> the link does look like it could be a flex point, but a minor point in the scheme of things. Doesnt need to be a Hex tho, i dont think that accomplishes all that much exept for looking neato


Ahhh... ok. I don't come to mtbr.com much.

I think that the addition of the hex axle would stiffen up the link alot and wouldn't cost alot more to produce. But your right, it doesn't have to be a hex shape, an oval shape like the thru axle on the cannondale would work ok too.

I think it's worth it and if i was designing it i would include it, why go to all the trouble to make is so stiff if the link is just going to flex? Even a little flex at the link will cause the rear wheel to move a fair way.


----------



## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

cave dweller said:


> Ahhh... ok. I don't come to mtbr.com much.
> 
> I think that the addition of the hex axle would stiffen up the link alot and wouldn't cost alot more to produce. But your right, it doesn't have to be a hex shape, an oval shape like the thru axle on the cannondale would work ok too.
> 
> I think it's worth it and if i was designing it i would include it, why go to all the trouble to make is so stiff if the link is just going to flex? Even a little flex at the link will cause the rear wheel to move a fair way.


 for some reason Dave likes MTBR more 

even a round link would be ok, its the size that counts, not the shape of the interface in that configuration. I would consider simply welding it together if it would stay in tolerance, or make it one piece if it wont break the budget.


----------



## skinnyhippy (Jun 29, 2004)

*Wow...I am very, very impressed...*

with your open dialogue regarding an upcoming frame! Taking rider input into account as well as you are. I am eagerly awaiting the production version of this frame, knowing that it's coming from everyone, made by you.

Respect all around!


----------



## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

turnerbikes said:


> ......
> Whata ya think?
> 
> David Turner


well, for starters, i think the currently bikeless WCH should get one to test and promote.....


----------



## cave dweller (Feb 15, 2005)

zedro said:


> for some reason Dave likes MTBR more
> 
> even a round link would be ok, its the size that counts, not the shape of the interface in that configuration. I would consider simply welding it together if it would stay in tolerance, or make it one piece if it wont break the budget.


For sure, making it one piece is the way to go, but if it's going to be in pieces that pin needs to be bigger. Looks tiny in the model.

Turner casts alot of their bits from the look of the bits on my DHR, it would probably be feasable for them to make it one piece. I think welding is a little dicey and would be hard to get it straight, not alot of room to get the weld all the way around.

Anyway, im sure Dave has thought it all out


----------



## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

cave dweller said:


> For sure, making it one piece is the way to go, but if it's going to be in pieces that pin needs to be bigger. Looks tiny in the model.
> 
> Turner casts alot of their bits from the look of the bits on my DHR, it would probably be feasable for them to make it one piece. I think welding is a little dicey and would be hard to get it straight, not alot of room to get the weld all the way around.
> 
> Anyway, im sure Dave has thought it all out


 yeah does look small. I would have never thought of welding if i hadent seen Specialized and SC do it. Personally i like big CNC'd billet chunks everywhere, but i think alot of newbie designers are afraid of too many welds


----------



## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

nice...love the horst link


----------



## cave dweller (Feb 15, 2005)

zedro said:


> yeah does look small. I would have never thought of welding if i hadent seen Specialized and SC do it. Personally i like big CNC'd billet chunks everywhere, but i think alot of newbie designers are afraid of too many welds


Hahah... you calling me a newbie punk 

I may not have designed a bike (yet) but i am a mechanical engineer and do design stuff all the time  Thats why i like turners so much, just really really nice clean designs with good bearings and strength where it is needed.


----------



## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

cave dweller said:


> Hahah... you calling me a newbie punk
> 
> I may not have designed a bike (yet) but i am a mechanical engineer and do design stuff all the time  Thats why i like turners so much, just really really nice clean designs with good bearings and strength where it is needed.


 actually i was calling myself a newb...thats why i said i prefer large billet pieces....hell look at the bike i made, must be like a foot of welding in there lol

had no idea you were an ME too....arent we just the best? :thumbs:


----------



## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

*Weight, cables, fork stops*



slayer2003 said:


> Sweet.
> Get this to be around 10 - 10.5 lbs for a large and I'll buy one.


I was just looking at the 05 Catalogue at my LBS. The rear has specs for all current models including the to be issued High Line. Weight was stated at 12.5 pounds (I think) which was about 1.3 heavier than the DHR.

This spec was probably put into pre-press sometime ago and the final weight may be down on this.

As for cables, I like them under the top tube, with rear brake running along top of the seat stay. Same for the rear mech.

Looks like a totally radical ride. Something to compete with the Demo series.

Dave, have you thought about built in fork stops?

Its totally cool that your posting for feedback on this sight. more manufacturers should take your lead.


----------



## cave dweller (Feb 15, 2005)

zedro said:


> actually i was calling myself a newb...thats why i said i prefer large billet pieces....hell look at the bike i made, must be like a foot of welding in there lol
> 
> had no idea you were an ME too....arent we just the best? :thumbs:


Man, i know so many people that are ME's and ride DH bikes. Just something about lumps of metal, moving bits, gears and bearings that gets me all excited


----------



## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

cave dweller said:


> Man, i know so many people that are ME's and ride DH bikes. Just something about lumps of metal, moving bits, gears and bearings that gets me all excited


 yeah, the geek-out part of biking certainly gives alot of downtime enjoyment. Sometimes all i think about for week-long stretches is designing another one.


----------



## Bulldog (Jan 13, 2004)

zedro said:


> something like this would be a little cleaner IMO, will work well being mirrored for the brake and the derailler, and doesnt cross pivots or get in the way of stuff. The loop between the frame and seatstay shouldnt need to be so big either


I agree your way looks the cleanest, but I haven't had the best luck when derailleur cables are run on parallel tubes that sorta double up on themselves, like this top tube and seat stay arrangement. Tends to cause ghost shifting for me.


----------



## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

Bulldog said:


> I agree your way looks the cleanest, but I haven't had the best luck when derailleur cables are run on parallel tubes that sorta double up on themselves, like this top tube and seat stay arrangement. Tends to cause ghost shifting for me.


 yeah, it depens on where and how you bend it between the stay and the frame. Theres sometimes a sweet spot where the cable doesnt move all that much, but that depens on the suspension as well, like between the Bullit (which seems to be problematic) and a 4bar


----------



## Deweydude (Mar 7, 2004)

Awesome I can't wait to see one> I think it is very cool how you get rider input on designing your frames and it sounds like you are getting tons of it any issues I could think of have been covered so I will just leave you with PROPS But I am very curious about costs...... again great job


----------



## Bulldog (Jan 13, 2004)

turnerbikes said:


> Fox DHX 5.0 coil shock. 2.75 stroke x 8.75 long


Suspension rate? Compared to my current beloved FR bike, your RFX? I hope you built in some of your own progressiveness to the system, and aren't relying solely on the DHX's help?


----------



## turnerbikes (Apr 12, 2004)

*progress*

About the cable routing. As you can all see, my first thoughts were not what will be. I like the "green" lines the best as the go through the main pivot which will bend the housing and brake hose in the most gentle arcs when run on the top of the down tube. As clean as the underside of the top tube is it will cause too much crumple and double under movement. So, the ONLY issue with the drive side green line is routing the cable on TOP of the C-stay. Ya'll will have to put a old tube over it to preserve the housing untill it wears out from the inside. I spoke with Scot @Go-Ride and he agreed that it would be a no problem solution for the smoothest arc. Thanks for the tip.

The link will be a welded together part with a thickwall cross tube. It will have to be well jigged to assure straightness. The reason that it is not one piece, and anyone familiar with my frames knows I like to support the scrap industry, is that the inner bearing faces of the 2 upper 1" wide pivots have a feature machined into them that needs to face the mill, not each other. With a full width 1/2" diameter steel bearing tube connecting the lower end and that upper yoke around the seat tube is not exactly made of foil, it will be fine. The proto type was 2 separate parts and not one of the testers said anything but "totally fine" when asked about rear stiffness. One of the guys is well over 6 ft and no XC racer, he took multiple drops at Mushroom Rock in Moab and with landing in the big G out with arcing left he would have noticed a problem.

The reason I have never put a fork stop on is that I would not know which fork to design it around. Forks from all over the world end up on Turner frames, and with almost every one having slip on rubber stops and my choice of tubes on dual crown bikes on the robust side I have not seen a need. I we were in the complete bike biz and spec'd a specific fork then it would make more sense and second fork choices be damned.

I do not think the price will be much different than the show price. 2K is not unreasonable when talking low #'s and big tooling bills.

I will post a right side view on Friday and I think the front deraileur clearance machined into the lower yoke will cause some fmb's. I am partial to my new huny for sure!

Appreciate the comments. The internet has made it much easier to get a consensus of
your wants and ideas.

David Turner


----------



## BJ- (Jan 28, 2004)

man thats heaps nicer...

i guess if you play your cards right you might have something that could challenge the VP-Free...anyways the only thing i dont like is the gusset that re-enforces the seat tube and top tube...looks a little rough...

great job though, cant wait to see one built up...


----------



## Ace_Jellyfish (Dec 12, 2004)

i better start saving now...


----------



## gonzostrike (Jan 3, 2004)

*nice to see the evolution*

man I love the way Dave Turner does business


----------



## scabrider (Oct 3, 2004)

pdirt said:


> Looks sickly.... I hope my boy Alloy gets one!
> 
> BTW... what length/stroke shock? Any brand specific that it will ship with?


 thats awesome. it is so cool. i want one. will you give me a factory sponsership. and let me have a free bike. please.


----------



## caspar (Feb 2, 2004)

*Beautiiiful !*

TXS , U made my life so much simpler . Now I can stop dreaming about a new ride this spring , and be perfectly happy that Ill have to wait till next spring !

Why not a 9,5 x 3" shock , that seems to be all the rage now and keeping the ratio as low as poss. Id imagine a 9,5x3 would also have more overlap piston/body, thus less prone to sideloading than a 8,75 x2,75.

Whatever U decide with cabelrouting , try to keep the frontmech cabelstops "hidden" so there wont be ugly unused cabelstopstops showing.Ie no frontstop alone on toptube and the 2 others on downtube
A RAW finish would look great (imho) , try to keep the stickers lowkey and stealthy.
Cheers


----------



## bizutch (Aug 26, 2004)

*Fork stops*

Hey Dave,
Butch here. I haven't called to catch up since there's not much to tell....other than our frames are frickin' BEAUTIFUL!!!

I wanted to mention something about the fork stops. Have you ever seen the fork stops that Frank the Welder used to build into the Spooky Motorhead. I noticed he still uses it on the R9. My local shop owner, Fred Schuldt, recommended the design when he ordered his Motorhead a few years ago.

It is a semi-rectangular rubber stop incorporated into the top tube/ Since it is long and slim, it doesn't matter which DH fork you run, it contacts clean on them all, even a Monster T or DH40.
You can see it here on the R9. https://www.sinisterbikes.com/r9.htm
It works real well and is bolted into the frame with a single bolt.

I never found out if it is patented, but it is an excellent way to protect the tubes from getting crushed or dented from impacts of any fork.
Oh, and check out our new racing gear!!! State of the art!


----------



## e<i>o (May 22, 2004)

bizutch said:


>


Well, well, well........look who it is.........The Sheriff of Pisgah himself.


----------



## K'Endo (Dec 23, 2003)

Hmmm ... looks a little bit Knolly-ish.

Kn.


----------



## turnerbikes (Apr 12, 2004)

*Knolly?*

I went to www.knollybikes.com and took a look at the Knolly to see what you meant. Could not see the similarity. Of course the Highline looks like a VP Free too if all we look at is the general shock location. I see M-1 and DHR in the Knolly, does that mean it is even similar as either? The Highline has a seat tube that originates from the BB center. I wanted the seat setup to be similar to a XC bike for the riders that plan on riding it uphill. My goal with the Highline was simple, simple simple. I was on the board last fall getting feedback and with the help of several dealers including Scott at GoRide and Dave at Slickrock I came up with a package that offered what was felt to be the best package for a broad range of riders. Will it make all the free ride world absolutely happy and you will ALL buy a Turner. No way. I just hope I have listened carefully to the right opinions to make enough riders happy so that some buy a Highline.

David Turner


----------



## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

K'Endo said:


> Hmmm ... looks a little bit Knolly-ish.
> 
> Kn.


 doesnt look anything like a Knolly, although they are serving the same market segment.


----------



## turnerbikes (Apr 12, 2004)

*another view*

Here is another view.

DT


----------



## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

turnerbikes said:


> Here is another view.
> 
> DT


 can i get a direct side view for reverse engineering study? 

actually i'm curious to how the seat stay shock mounting affects the rate

and whats the deal with the BB? the ISCG mounts look to be recessed?


----------



## binary visions (Jan 18, 2004)

I'd hit it.


----------



## elistan (Jul 3, 2004)

oh wow, im shopping for a new ride, i think i may have just found it.

What cad program is that?


----------



## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

This may be a silly question, but Im not sure if I've missed a description of the derailler hanger. (there are 3 or more forums with this same thread going on). On page one you mention the axle nut acting as the D-hanger for non saint users (me). Will this part be fixed to the frame so when the wheel is off the hanger and derailler doesnt flop around? Its kind of hard to tell in the renderings.


----------



## knollybikes.com (Jan 8, 2004)

*Hey Dave:*

I hope all is well!

The new finalized Highline certainly looks nice!

Are you planning to hit the Fruita Festival this spring - hopefully I'll see you there.

I think that where these comments come from is the fact that both bikes are four bar style bikes with RAD style tubing and horizontal shock placements. And definitely, both bikes are hitting the same market segments. Also the geometries are going to be very similar of course (I think that the Highline and the V-tach are pretty much bang on similar in terms of geometry if they are adjusted for the same axle to crown height).

Anyway, I think that there is lots of room in this market segment and "friendly competition" is certainly healthy. Dave, I still remember our first meeting at Interbike 2003 at the Maxxis tent when you saw the a prototype V-tach and invited me over to check out the initial Highline concept. Actually that first concept frame - with its non BB-concentric seat tube - was closer to the V-tach than this final version of the Highline (which to me is much more similar to a Divinci Wilson in terms of linkage and frame arrangement, though quite different in terms of geometry and obviously different in terms of cost and quality).

The V-tach takes a bit of a different approach to solving similar problems. We also have a very climbing oriented cock-pit (with the seat extended, it's equal to a 72 degree seat angle), though it is very DH oriented with the seat down (slightly forward to ease getting behind the seat and improving tire clearance under full compression). The V-tach also has some additional features (adjustable wheel base and head angle), but that comes with a significantly higher retail price. I'm sure that the V-tach will weigh a small amount more than the Highline as well. So, while similar bikes and similar market segments, there are enough differences for the discerning consumer to base a purchase decision on.

For other people reading this post, it is quite normal for several companies to develop similar products at the forefront of the "current science" in secrecy of each other. To me, the Turner Highline is just the final execution of the initial prototype shown two Interbike's ago: one that is thoroughly though out in terms of manufacturing and application AND developed quite independently of the Knolly V-tach. Knolly has already had to defend itself against patent violation as well as copy-cat manufacturing from other frame companies - pretty amazing for a fledgling frame manufacturer - however Turner is certainly NOT one of those companies.

Like all well thought out products I'm sure that Turner Bikes, just like Knolly Bikes does, works closely with their manufacturers and a selection of riders capable of providing extensive feedback on design, manufacturing, performance and reliability when designing and prototyping the Highline. This is a huge advantage to manufacturing locally.

Finally, the direction of both companies is somewhat different: there will of course be cross over products, but it's my understanding (and Dave, please correct me if I'm wrong) that Turner Bikes focuses on (mainly) four bar linkage full suspension designs (apart from the DHR) for all aspects of mountain biking. Knolly Bikes focuses primarily on the design and manufacture of free ride and DH oriented bikes - both hard tails and full suspension products (even if we only have our first product for sale now, that is our direction). I can't imagine Knolly Bikes making a product like the Flux (which I'm planning to buy for my wife by the way in the next month) or the Nitrous in the foreseeable future.

Hopefully this post was not out of place, and certainly wasn't meant to highjack this thread.

Back to the armchain engineer Highline discussion (apart from Zedro and K'endo - you guys get full engineering marks of course 

Sincerely,

Noel Buckley



turnerbikes said:


> I went to www.knollybikes.com and took a look at the Knolly to see what you meant. Could not see the similarity. Of course the Highline looks like a VP Free too if all we look at is the general shock location. I see M-1 and DHR in the Knolly, does that mean it is even similar as either? The Highline has a seat tube that originates from the BB center. I wanted the seat setup to be similar to a XC bike for the riders that plan on riding it uphill. My goal with the Highline was simple, simple simple. I was on the board last fall getting feedback and with the help of several dealers including Scott at GoRide and Dave at Slickrock I came up with a package that offered what was felt to be the best package for a broad range of riders. Will it make all the free ride world absolutely happy and you will ALL buy a Turner. No way. I just hope I have listened carefully to the right opinions to make enough riders happy so that some buy a Highline.
> 
> David Turner


----------



## turnerbikes (Apr 12, 2004)

*dropping info*

Thanks for the props Noel. I enjoyed looking at your bike as it has grown, meeting the man and hearing his thoughts on design is always great conversation, even if we are creating something different, for the same market. As you point out, there is a common thread through most of the bikes aimed at the free ride market, or any market for that matter. And of course the fun as a designer is to choose which features to incorporate, what geometry to emphasize. I hope all you riders out there have as much fun shopping and comparing and thinking about what features are important to you, that is what is great about having choices.

When you said developing and manufacturing locally, I think here in North America, for you Canada and us, United States. That is a very important part of my business as I really think that riders need to understand what kind of cost savings there is to building bikes in China, but at what costs to our economies here and the enviroment there. If someone wants a cheap frame, there are no shortage of imported freeride frame to choose from. I understand budget. But what I just don't understand are riders buying imported stuff when it costs almost as much as North American built frames. And in some cases even more! They are getting ****ed, and so is our "brother" who needs a good job. I was invited to see factories in Taiwan, ROC and I have pricing given to me at the show etc. I know that those U.S. and Canadian companies that used to make their stuff in North America are making far more profit on every frame as they are using their North America image to create larger margins on cheap chinese produced product. If you want low cost buy an import, but don't pay extra for "Designed in USA" or "Canadian Design". They are paying far less than Noel and I. If you want domestic produced product give either of us a call.

As for the ISCG mount, it is stepped, that is so that the BB facing tool can cut a clean face on the shell. After facing it ends up about thickness of a single washer for chainguide spacing.

David Turner


----------



## binary visions (Jan 18, 2004)

turnerbikes said:


> But what I just don't understand are riders buying imported stuff when it costs almost as much as North American built frames. And in some cases even more! They are getting ****ed, and so is our "brother" who needs a good job. I was invited to see factories in Taiwan, ROC and I have pricing given to me at the show etc. I know that those U.S. and Canadian companies that used to make their stuff in North America are making far more profit on every frame as they are using their North America image to create larger margins on cheap chinese produced product. If you want low cost buy an import, but don't pay extra for "Designed in USA" or "Canadian Design". They are paying far less than Noel and I. If you want domestic produced product give either of us a call.


Hi David -

I have to disagree with this statement.

China/Taiwan/etc. are current production products that are as good _or better_ than many bikes that are made in this country. If the companies that are outsourcing their bikes can produce this high quality product, sell it for the same price that the "Made in the USA" product is sold for, and make a bigger profit - well, more power to them and such is the nature of a free market. You and Noel are making some fantastic products, undoubtedly. But you certainly know that both of your products do not suit everyone's needs, whether those needs are for geometry, materials, or simply out of brand loyalty. I, as a consumer, certainly have enough options that if a Taiwan made bike suits my needs better, I'm not going to settle for a substitute simply because it has a Made in the USA sticker.

In regards to the job issue, well, hey, the Taiwanese need jobs too. Keeping the jobs at home is a nice sentiment and all, but it's not like we're outsourcing the jobs to a bunch of robots - all of these other guys have families to feed as well. Besides, a company like Specialized still employs many, many Americans, even if their welder isn't one of them. Frankly, Specialized is employing a lot more Americans than Turner and Knolly combined - and products like the Demo 9 are clearly extremely high quality bikes, not "cheap chinese produced product."

Turner and Knolly produce bikes that are a cut above most of the rest of the market. That's why people buy them. However, the old prejudice against foreign made bikes doesn't hold water anymore - the quality coming out of Taiwan & China now is better than anything we've ever seen before.

Supporting a business like yours that provides top notch customer service is, of course, a whole other story and a _very_ valid reason to buy from Turner!


----------



## turnerbikes (Apr 12, 2004)

*OK Fine*

You are correct that just being made in USA is not going to mean better than everything else. Nor did I say that.

More POWER to them is right also, I just feel that paying more just for the sake of paying more is getting ****ed, 'cause you don't get nothing more for the $. A completey no BS lifetime guarantee? Un-breakable in the first place? How about just another ?? % profit for the Frequent Flyer company.

Noel and I and the Canfield Bros and Brooklyn and Ventana and Cannondale and Intense and Foes and Orange and Titus and and and do this for a fair profit and provide top shelf stuff. Period. I did not single out the Demo, there are others that are imported, some sneakily. That is before economies of scale are taken into consideration. Then it gets obscene.

If you want a good deal and the imported frame fits your needs, I did not say don't buy it. I just said "heads up" The production overseas is very much cheaper than here in the States or Canada or or . If it weren't cheaper they would not be flying over there. Period. I did not tell anyone to compromise their financial reason just to buy North American. I also said I understand 'budget'. If you can't afford a US made bike, fine. It is better to ride than to be homeless. Yes the import quality is good. Just pay imported prices. The company you are buying it from is paying for Asian labor, and from start to finish it costs less. Note flying over there, it has to be cheaper, I have been there and the food alone ain't worth going for.

Just outa curiousity. How many of you would want the Highline to be made in Taiwan? Can I still charge $1995?? How many will place their orders now for an imported frame with US made retail price? How about if I raise the price a couple to cover my plane ticket? Anyone feel uncomfortable? I do. Maybe it's just me.

Thanks for the props on being a cut above most of the rest of the market. My crew and I work hard for that. If it were just about money Turner would not be on the frame, I want to make stuff that allows riders to have a better time riding.

Happy Trails

David Turner


----------



## e<i>o (May 22, 2004)

turnerbikes said:


> ................
> Thanks for the props on being a cut above most of the rest of the market. My crew and I work hard for that. If it were just about money Turner would not be on the frame, I want to make stuff that allows riders to have a better time riding.





binary visions said:


> Supporting a business like yours that provides top notch customer service is, of course, a whole other story and a _very_ valid reason to buy from Turner!


Pffft. Damn. What a speech.
I'm sold..............................lead me to my local Turner dealer.


----------



## mosplat (Jan 21, 2004)

word to eio.

i think this is a great thread.

the highline looks fantastic.

having bought a freeride frame already,
when the time comes for my trailbike i'm gonna get a 5-spot.

without a doubt.


----------



## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

e[I said:


> o]Pffft. Damn. What a speech.
> I'm sold..............................lead me to my local Turner dealer.


your easy...wanna go out??


----------



## knollybikes.com (Jan 8, 2004)

*Product Design and Manufacturing.*

Hey BV: I don't want to detract from the main purpose of this thread, but I think that both sides have to qualify their statements on manufacturing. Dave obviously already has and I would like to add my opinions too.

First off, you are absolutely correct in stating that North American made doesn't necessarily meen better. I don't think we need to look any further than the Consumer Reports Car review reliability ratings that come out every year: compare the Corolla to the Cavalier - we all know what the results will be.

That being said, there are some things that ARE better because they are made in local environments: The reasons are numerous, but the first thing to cosider is that IF a product is being made overseas it is being done FOR cost savings. That cost savings mentality doesn't just apply to the "welding" of the frame: it applies to all aspects of the frame. That includes paint, alignment, bearings, headset bores, seat tube reaming, bearing seats, etc... Again, I'm not saying that it is necessarily lower quality, but the manufacturing mentality is designed to drive cost down FIRST. For example: for us to manufacture our product overseas simply wouldn't be worth the investment in time and money. The product is still going to be very expensive (things like bearings and fasteners are a fixed cost because of the brand we purchase) because there is SOOOO much machine time involved in the product. While the labour would be cheaper, the CNC machines cost the same to purchase, maintain and run. The material costs the same (and we use a LOT of aluminum). Those costs are pretty much fixed. Additionally, we have some extremely precise machining done that again would be almost as expensive to do overseas. IT is simply not worth the extra efforts of communication for us to set up a product for overseas manufacturing. It would NOT be as good in the end, probably wouldn't be much cheaper, and we would certainly require a lot more baby sitting.

[Edit: These comments pertain to a company like Knolly attempting to make EXACTLY the same product overseas. Of course, what usually happens is that the product is significantly cheaped in terms of manufacturnig costs: some of this is due to economies of scale while some of it is due to a "cheapening" of the product (lower quality hardware, paint, bearings, etc...)

Now, of course, there are exceptions to this rule: Certainly companies like Specialized can produce reasonably high quality products because of economy of scale and most likely rigorously controlled manufacturing standards that have been put in place over many years. Howevere, there are many other manufacturers who find it easier to MARKET their products than to IMPROVE them.

Some of that Dave alluded to already - here's my take on it:

MADE in USA
ASSEMBLED in USA
DESIGNED in USA

Often a company will start at the top and eventually move towards the bottom, without decreasing pricing. The marketing is done to DECEIVE the consumer into believing that DESIGNED in USA = MADE in USA. Often, the DESIGNED will be a huge sticker on the frame with a tiny, almost hidden sticker mentioning that the product was made in Cambodia or Viet Nam. What happens is a decrease in manufacturing costs with often trigger an increase in the number of defective products reaching the cosumer. Because the cost is lower, it usually more than ofsets the increase in warranty costs. However, the consumer is still paying the "earlier" price for a product which is now of lower quality: However, the comapny is making more money, though at the expense of the consumer.

I'm not saying overseas manufacturing is bad: I own a Toshiba TV made in Thailand, a German VW made in Mexico, a Subaru made in Japan and a Pentium 4 compuater probably made everywhere between Boise Idaho and Korea. All of these products are excellent.

However, when a company deliberately attempts to mis-inform the consumer, I will say that is poor business ethics simply to further the company's bottom line. As high end manufacturers it is our job to make sure that the consumer knows what they get with our products - whether that swayes them to purchase those products or not is their decision.

Regards,

Noel Buckley


----------



## e<i>o (May 22, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> your easy...wanna go out??


I saw your picture.........you're not my type.


----------



## binary visions (Jan 18, 2004)

Anyhow, this thread kinda got derailled and I didn't intend for it to go so far off track, just had to get on my soapbox for a bit 



turnerbikes said:


> Just outa curiousity. How many of you would want the Highline to be made in Taiwan? Can I still charge $1995?? How many will place their orders now for an imported frame with US made retail price? How about if I raise the price a couple to cover my plane ticket? Anyone feel uncomfortable? I do. Maybe it's just me.


If you can produce it in Taiwan and get every ounce of quality out of it that your frames are known for, then yes, as far as I'm concerned, you can charge $1995.

Is there something to having a USA made product? Yes, a little. But I'm going to buy the right frame for me, first and foremost, and whether that frame comes from Taiwan, Yugoslavia, or domestically, that matters little.



> Thanks for the props on being a cut above most of the rest of the market. My crew and I work hard for that. If it were just about money Turner would not be on the frame, I want to make stuff that allows riders to have a better time riding.


And it shows!

Noel: I understand where you're coming from, and I think you also know what I'm saying. But I absolutely agree - deliberately misleading customers into thinking their bike was made in the US when it was really assembled/designed in the US is a lousy business practice.

I'm not sure if Yeti does this with their Taiwan made frames - I can't count the number of people who believe that their (2003+) AS-X is made in the USA.

As a personal decision, I am very inclined to support businesses like yours and Dave's, not because of where the frame was made, but because people like you are some of the best that the industry has to offer - knowledgable individuals who are in the business because you guys love the sport as much as the rest of us and I know that when you buy from a business like Turner or Knolly, you're getting a lot of value for your money - both in the bike, and in the customer service. My comments about overseas manufacturing are in _no way_ intended to detract from the great companies that you guys run.

Back on topic, I can't wait to see some production frames that I can drool over... Those V-Tach frames looked amazing and I'm sure the Highline will look equally great! It is my unfortunate circumstance that I am saving to relocate and am relagated to my hardtail, unable to afford all the frames that I desire... C'est la vie!


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 29, 2003)

binary visions said:


> Hi David -
> 
> I have to disagree with this statement.
> 
> ...


I could disagree and agree with almost everything in your post. 
1. Taiwan & China do have some facilities that make very good bikes, and some that make junk. Some bike companies use the cheapest that can still appear to be higher quality and it shows after a season or two. Others like Yeti have a overseas manufacturer that only builds Yeti and one very high end road bike company. You tend to get things done right when you aren't trying to cram out 10,000 bikes in a year.
2. I suppose Taiwanese & Chinese need jobs too, but why should they get all the American manufacturing jobs. If you are an American and you can get an American product of equal quality and function for a slight bit more than an overseas product, IMO, you should buy the American one. Have a little pride in your country. I'm not saying you have to believe in the government, but you should consider it a priority to support the American worker if they are producing a competitive product.
3. All I can say about the Demo 8/9 is KISS. There's a reason the new Highline looks so good and the Demo's look so confused.

As usual these are just my opinions and I don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees with me.


----------



## TheSherpa (Jan 15, 2004)

knollybikes.com said:


> Some of that Dave alluded to already - here's my take on it:
> 
> MADE in USA
> ASSEMBLED in USA
> ...


Why must you make fun of my Santa Cruz like that ? I know everyone says there Made in the USA (single pivots are Taiwan) but i don't buy it. What constitutes a sticker saying Made in the USA? Everything, or just paint/ano + assembly and stickers.

-TS


----------



## binary visions (Jan 18, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> I could disagree and agree with almost everything in your post.
> 1. Taiwan & China do have some facilities that make very good bikes, and some that make junk. (snip)


That's silly... Just because some facilities make junk doesn't negate my point - that you can get just as high quality out of a Taiwan facility as an American one.


> 2. I suppose Taiwanese & Chinese need jobs too, but why should they get all the American manufacturing jobs. (snip) you should consider it a priority to support the American worker if they are producing a competitive product.


Again, I would bring up the point that Specialized employs FAR more Americans than Turner or Knolly could ever hope to, so how am I not supporting American jobs? Is a welder or machinist's job worth more than a guy answering the phone, or coming up with new marketing campaigns?


> 3. All I can say about the Demo 8/9 is KISS. There's a reason the new Highline looks so good and the Demo's look so confused.


The point wasn't really about the Demo in particular... It was simply a general point, using the Demo as an example of high quality manufacturing - whether or not you like the design is a moot point.



> As usual these are just my opinions and I don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees with me.


Of course - and these are mine! Just bringing counterpoint to the discussion...


----------



## oly (Jul 13, 2004)

When i was at SIA this year (SIA = snow sports trade show), Mervin MFG who makes GNU and Lib Tech had a great sticker that said "MADE it to the USA". It was written in such a way that your brain read made in the usa, at first, then when you looked closer it was clear what it really said. All this USA vs Asia made me think of that. 

Ok carry on....... 

(patiently waiting the first real Photos... not just renderings.....)


----------



## Espen (Feb 19, 2004)

This new frame looks great!

How about:


----------



## Espen (Feb 19, 2004)

And this:


----------



## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

ISIS Overdrive was dead before it hit the ground. Outboard bearings pretty much killed it.


----------



## Espen (Feb 19, 2004)

Outboard bearings is not the holy grail.

The outboard bearings still uses wery small balls. If BB's where designed today, no one would make such a small BB shell. It just dont make sense.

The ISIS interface is good, but the low profile bearings do'nt hold up. An obious solution would be ISIS interface and larger bearings.

Overdrive.

Should not be any problem to make an Overdrive BB shell in the frame, and use adapters for regular ISIS or outboard. (for those who wants to use time to repace/service bearings instead of riding)


Espen


----------



## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

Espen said:


> Outboard bearings is not the holy grail.
> 
> The outboard bearings still uses wery small balls. If BB's where designed today, no one would make such a small BB shell. It just dont make sense.
> 
> ...


 efficiency is the problem, ie. stength vs weight. Outboard isnt so bad stength wise because it does have a high ball count, but its main problem is alignment, or stiffness being seperate components. Overdrive is really heavy and it seems frame builders arent going for it. Also ISIS isnt that good of a standard as it relies on tapered interfaces, and isnt as efficient as an intergrated design (its covenient for mearly seperating products, but i think it will gradually die).

Ideal would be direct pressed bearings with an integrated crank layout, but cheapo frame makers might have a problem with that.


----------



## LandonVega (Jul 14, 2004)

its fun to listen to people when they know what there talking about


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 14, 2004)

In a valiant attempt to re-rail this thread back to something useful, the BB height on the Highline is 15" for an 8" bike with a 22.5" fork. That's a 888 with flat crowns on it. You'll get to 14.5" with a 7" 888 and flat crowns, or a Sherman or something. Not too shabby.


----------



## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

James @ Go-Ride said:


> In a valiant attempt to re-rail this thread back to something useful, the BB height on the Highline is 15" for an 8" bike with a 22.5" fork. That's a 888 with flat crowns on it. You'll get to 14.5" with a 7" 888 and flat crowns, or a Sherman or something. Not too shabby.


Pipe down till you're ready to peddle (sic) some bikes chump!!!

That's the saving grace of that bike in my mind right now. I'm not down with the northshore wheelie machines as much as with a bike that rails around turns like me DHR thingy.

Any word on manufacture yet? I know you guys ordered a few lucky7/highline frames back in the 90s.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 14, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> Pipe down till you're ready to peddle (sic) some bikes chump!!!
> 
> That's the saving grace of that bike in my mind right now. I'm not down with the northshore wheelie machines as much as with a bike that rails around turns like me DHR thingy.
> 
> Any word on manufacture yet? I know you guys ordered a few lucky7/highline frames back in the 90s.


Hey, I'm always peddling bikes (unless of course I'm twisting the throttle), look at the post count.


----------



## skitrev33 (Mar 30, 2005)

Wow what a sick frame... I have drooled over the Highline since I saw the concept pics from Interbike a season or two back. I'm diggin this thread, the creators of my two favorite frames (V-Tach and Highline) battling the marketing ploys of the big boys. Anyway, I wondered if anyone had heard about a program that Ellsworth initiated this year that is basically an industry wide employee purchase program for industry professionals, regardless of whether they worked for a dealer or not. I had heard over and over again that professional courtesy was all but dead, and was being given more and more reasons to believe so, but seeing the interaction between two guys I really admire on this thread, and the actions of Ellsworth have given me renewed hope in the mountain bike community. I know my hopes of Knolly starting a program like this are relatively slim since they are so young, and I'll have to wait till I have my degree and am makin the big bux to rip Whistler and Mountain Creek on one of Noel's rides. However, I wondered if there was a possibility of Turner starting a program such as Ellsworth's since David is a bit more established. I don't know what Turner's numbers in terms of sales are compared to Ellsworths to know if they could even offer a program such as said, but I just wanted to throw that out there and see what people thought. 

This is a tough sport on a minimum wage wrenching job while going to college full-time. One more week till a 4 month break, then two more weeks till Mountain Creek!!!


----------



## East Coast Bender (Nov 25, 2004)

That design looks pretty sick


----------



## snowskilz (Feb 19, 2004)

any new pics of the frame dt?


----------



## Sleepinggiant (Apr 24, 2005)

Any news on the avaliability of this beauty? Or the price?


----------



## gonzostrike (Jan 3, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> Edit: I just realized something..........no front derailleur? I thought that was a priority.


should be able to do an E-Type and run an E13 DRS.


----------



## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

gonzostrike said:


> should be able to do an E-Type and run an E13 DRS.


There's actually a post mount for a front derailleur. I didn't notice it when I said that earlier.


----------



## The Kadvang (Jul 25, 2004)

zedro said:


> Ideal would be direct pressed bearings with an integrated crank layout, but cheapo frame makers might have a problem with that.


AKA spanish bb in bmx


----------



## Gimper4JC (Aug 28, 2004)

binary visions said:


> Hi David -
> 
> I have to disagree with this statement.
> 
> ...


Well ya know,,,











turnerbikes said:


> You are correct that just being made in USA is not going to mean better than everything else. Nor did I say that.
> 
> More POWER to them is right also, I just feel that paying more just for the sake of paying more is getting ****ed, 'cause you don't get nothing more for the $. A completey no BS lifetime guarantee? Un-breakable in the first place? How about just another ?? % profit for the Frequent Flyer company.
> 
> ...


Turner and "like" companies will always have my business.

I also run a business where I could stand to make HUGE profit if I was willing to outsource over seas. But it will not happen in my company either. US Companies that outsource overseas do so for one reason and one reason only. Don't buy into the lie "its good business". No it's not,... IT'S PURE GREED! How much profit is enough? Just take a look at what the US automakers are now doing. My HARD earned money will go to the REAL US mfgs. As long as they still exist.

Enough of my soapbox&#8230; I'm going to ride, while I still have somewhere to ride.


----------



## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Have you tried a 6 Pack with an RP3?


I have, and I don't recommend it. The RP3 on the 6 pack is just too progressive. With a normal amount of sag I couldn't get more than about 3" of travel, and when I let it sag like 40% I got a good amount of positive travel relative to the end of the shock, but it was still only about 3" of positive travel. IMO it's just too progressive for the 6 pack and you loose out on travel and bump sensitivity. The other thing about the RP3 is that it just feels overdamped, at least compared to the DHX. Even on the "-" setting on the RP3 I feel like I want less compression damping, the rebound also seems very "overdamped" with settings above 5-6 clicks being fairly useless. After riding the RP3 on the 6 pack for a few rides, I must say that it is just not the right shock for the bike.


----------



## Jm. (Jan 12, 2004)

Espen said:


> Outboard bearings is not the holy grail.
> 
> The outboard bearings still uses wery small balls. If BB's where designed today, no one would make such a small BB shell. It just dont make sense.


But the force is distributed over a larger area with the outboard bearings, so it's ok if they are small.


----------



## binary visions (Jan 18, 2004)

Gimper4JC said:


> Turner and "like" companies will always have my business.


Don't you guys read posting dates before responding?

Nothing like letting a subject drop then starting the conversation back up two months later .


----------



## Bulldog (Jan 13, 2004)

Jm. said:


> I have, and I don't recommend it. The RP3 on the 6 pack is just too progressive. With a normal amount of sag I couldn't get more than about 3" of travel, and when I let it sag like 40% I got a good amount of positive travel relative to the end of the shock, but it was still only about 3" of positive travel. IMO it's just too progressive for the 6 pack and you loose out on travel and bump sensitivity. The other thing about the RP3 is that it just feels overdamped, at least compared to the DHX. Even on the "-" setting on the RP3 I feel like I want less compression damping, the rebound also seems very "overdamped" with settings above 5-6 clicks being fairly useless. After riding the RP3 on the 6 pack for a few rides, I must say that it is just not the right shock for the bike.


That's weird, considering the RP3 comes on the 5spot, which is very similar but with a much lower leverage ratio. Don't hear any complaints from those guys. Interesting.


----------



## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

Bulldog said:


> That's weird, considering the RP3 comes on the 5spot, which is very similar but with a much lower leverage ratio. Don't hear any complaints from those guys. Interesting.


 lower ratios can produce more linear rates, but regardless 'looks' and actual rates are two different things


----------



## t66 (Jan 20, 2004)

*The He11 you say*



skitrev33 said:


> the actions of Ellsworth have given me renewed hope in the mountain bike community.QUOTE]
> 
> HAH! LMAO


----------



## skitrev33 (Mar 30, 2005)

haha wow man thanks for callin' me out on that one. one of those things where you don't realize the irony of what you say until way afterwards. haha


----------

