# Light weight ebikes, who would of thought there would be a market for these!



## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Light weight ebikes! Hard to believe there is a class like this, as ebikes became more popular. A common believe among people who do not like ebikes was, ebikers hacking their ebikes for more power. This market for light weight ebikes is growing! These ebikes can come in as light as 38lbs to about 42lbs and have max torque between 35nm to 60nm. In comparison to a full powered ebike coming in around 48lbs to 56lbs and have max torque around 85nm to 105nm.

How did they do it? Smaller motors and smaller batteries with the exception of the Orbea Rise got a specially tune Shimano EP8 motor. Since the motors do not have as much torque, they do not consume battery power as fast, so the smaller batteries get decent range. Most have small add on battery kits you can install for a little extra range.

The only light weight ebike I’ve tried was the Orbea Rise and the power wasn’t that bad, but I’m coming off a full powered ebike. The rider easily kept up with the group and had no battery anxiety at all. I was surprised, every time I looked back he was there.

Here are some of the light weight ebikes and if I miss some, please link it below with a quick description.

I think Lapierre E-Zesty started the trend with this 42lbs ebike. 150mm of rear and front travel, 50nm of max torque and a 250wh sized battery. What’s unique about this ebike, it is designed to also be ridden without the battery.
e-Zesty AM LTD | 2021 | Lapierre Bikes

I’m sure a few other ebikes tried to follow with that, but when Specialized launched the Levo SL, Specialized being Specialized put light weight ebikes on the map. This ebike for it’s time had good geometry, 150mm of travel front and back, a 35nm max torque and 320wh battery with optional extenders. These ebikes are on sale right now, maybe meaning another model is coming out soon?
Turbo Levo | Specialized.com

Specialized followed up with the Kenevo SL! A big hit, but light weight ebike coming in around 42lbs, sporting 170mm of rear and front travel, with 35nm of max torque and 320wh battery. Most of the reviews I see are extremely positive about this ebike.
Turbo Kenevo SL | Specialized.com 

Orbea Rise is a very smart company and said hold my beer as they souped up a specially tune Shimano EP8 motor for their needs with a 60nm max torque, 140mm of rear travel and carbon got a 360wh battery and aluminum 540wh battery. These ebikes are coming in around 42lbs.
MTB — Orbea


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

I don't find this surprising at all. One of the biggest complaints about eBikes when they hit the market is how heavy they are. It was expected that the Manufacturers would continue to work on making them weight less.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I rarely use the 60nm on my Rise, feels like too much to handle for most of the trails I ride, I think the lower weight makes it feel more like riding a regular MB too. Overall it feels like the riding I've always done except there's that added boost for more fun and less suffering


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Tickle said:


> I rarely use the 60nm on my Rise, feels like too much to handle for most of the trails I ride, I think the lower weight makes it feel more like riding a regular MB too. Overall it feels like the riding I've always done except there's that added boost for more fun and less suffering


My 1st ebike was a Tazer with the E8000 and 70nm max torque. I found the power to be more than enough. Only problem I had was the small 500wh battery. So I tuned Trail mode to lower power than 70nm and it still had more than enough power. 

I hope Specialized redo their SL motors to put out at least 60nm and I’d buy that ebike in a heart beat! For me 35nm of power is just a bit to low. 

The Rise is also an ebike that has me questioning full powered Ebikes. Orbea totally changed this light weight ebike market! 


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> My 1st ebike was a Tazer with the E8000 and 70nm max torque. I found the power to be more than enough. Only problem I had was the small 500wh battery. So I tuned Trail mode to lower power than 70nm and it still had more than enough power.


Since I currently ride an intense the Tazer is on my shortlist, plus the lower price is attractive compared to a Levo. If you ran at full boost how long did the battery last? I am guessing you do a lot of riding at 215 and perhaps down at Vail Lake?


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## OldSchoolMBer (May 25, 2013)

mtbbiker said:


> Light weight ebikes! Hard to believe there is a class like this


Not hard for me to believe at all. Frankly I had zero in interest in ebikes until I heard about the Rise. That one could get me to seriously consider buying an ebike especially as their tech improves


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I'm in trail mode 90% of the time I have it tuned to 42nm, feels perfect to me. Agreed on the lower available torque tho I'm glad I have the 60 for bailout purposes. I do wish for more battery sometimes but I can do 30-35 miles and 3-4K climbing mostly in trail which is enough for 90% of my riding


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

I have a kenevo SL and I’m still undecided if I like it or not yet. Coming from a moto background, and still ride moto every weekend, the weight was never an issue for me on my previous 2 ebikes. I got the KSL for its descending abilities, but not sure the lack of power is worth it yet. Range is fine if I don’t mind going slow. Or spending more money on range extenders.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I have been on a Levo SL for the past year. My biggest complaint is battery life not power. The power is more than enough for a rider of my weight and fitness level but I really only get 2hrs of use out of it. I can use a little less power and stretch it to 2.5hrs but if I reduce the power anymore I might as well be on a bio-bike.

I super enjoy it for an after work blast, but on the weekends when I want to ride longer I just about always ride by bio-bike.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> Since I currently ride an intense the Tazer is on my shortlist, plus the lower price is attractive compared to a Levo. If you ran at full boost how long did the battery last? I am guessing you do a lot of riding at 215 and perhaps down at Vail Lake?


I think the bigger issue is the 500wh battery at 1st is pretty strong. Probably about 1.5hrs. The problem is, because the battery is only 500wh, you drain it often doing full charges. The battery degrades faster than the bigger batteries. I rarely drain my 700wh battery. 

Once you get an ebike and ride more often, I guarantee, you’ll find trail mode better than turbo. Great bike that did everything well. The SCOR ebike would be a better choice and a decent price. 


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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

Personally I love the Kenevo SL motor. I am not looking to fly uphill, though I can still go ~2x as fast up. For me the 35nm motor is more about helping, keeping me from getting anaerobic. I found the torque to be more than enough on a few 30% grades too! Adding another 8-12lbs would be a no go for the riding I enjoy.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

I've always said that I think if I were in the market for an ebike, it would be one of the lighter weight ones. And its almost like they need a different class name for these, as they are definitely under class 1. As most seem to have like ~1/3 of the power of most typical class 1's I've seen.

My thinking has always been mostly around the fact that (having never ridden one), I'd assume it would feel more like riding a normal bike, both in the weight, and in the fact that "most" of the power was still coming from the rider.

The only ebike I've ever ridden was a co-workers commuter fat ebike (class1), and the max setting (of what I'd presume is the ~750w), felt so different to riding a bicycle to me it was hard to imagine doing that on the trails. By comparison, I can see the appeal of a bike that gave me 50-250w of extra "oompf" on the uphills without feeling like I wasn't contributing much, and still weighed about what my current bikes do (yes, my bike is heavy at ~37lbs or so) so it would feel "normal" on the downhills.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

I originally had a full power Levo (alloy) w/700 wh battery. 52 pounds. The power was/is insane compared to a mountain bike. I used trail and eco and would only use about 50-60% of the battery over 30 miles with significant elevation gain. It was too much power and too much weight. My LBS generously let me return it (after 2 weeks, it was also a demo) and purchase the Levo SL.

They are completely different E-bikes. The SL has less than half the power (240 watts) and less that half the battery capacity (320wh). Modified with a Pike @160, a DPX2 w/cascade link @155mm and a healthy smattering of carbon parts, it comes in at 38.5 pounds w/pedals/tubeless. It feels/rides very much like my Stumpy, a little more capable because of longer travel.

The mission control app is great, you can change the power levels in 5% increments from 0-100 in each mode - eco/trail/turbo. There have been many firmware updates to improve the motor performance/input sensitivity. It feels very intuitive and you definitely have to put the work in even in 100% turbo when climbing. It is only 35nm torque, but much faster than a mountain bike when climbing (depending on trail features/conditions).

As far as range goes, there are a lot of variables. I'm 205# ready to ride. With the range extender, which increases battery capacity to 480 wh and adds 2.3 pounds, I can get 40+ miles 5000 ft of climbing. I'm pretty fit (ride my SJ 50% of the time) and that's using eco and trail settings, short bursts of turbo on really steep sections.

I did a 15 mile loop yesterday with 1600 ft of climbing in 100% turbo mode (recovery ride) 18% battery left using only the 320wh internal battery.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mtbbiker said:


> I think the bigger issue is the 500wh battery at 1st is pretty strong. Probably about 1.5hrs. The problem is, because the battery is only 500wh, you drain it often doing full charges. The battery degrades faster than the bigger batteries. I rarely drain my 700wh battery.


So when you say the 500wh battery lasts for 1.5 hours at full boost, is that 1.5 hours of solid riding at full boost? When I rode my buddies Levo I was adjusting the power levels all the time, I put it at zero for the descents and full for the climbs and I imagine I would do more adjustments depending on the trail I am on at the time.


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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

mlx john said:


> I originally had a full power Levo SL (alloy) w/700 wh battery. 52 pounds.
> 
> [snip]


Actually you had a Levo NON-SL..... ;-)


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

REZEN said:


> Actually you had a Levo NON-SL..... ;-)


Thx for catching that. Fixed.


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## AEyogi (Nov 19, 2021)

I have a Kenevo SL. I love it, but it is a very different tool than a full fat ebike. It works for me as I don't generally have to try to keep up with a group of full fat ebikes, and I only use the trail and turbo modes for stupid steep sections of trail; so the power is more than sufficient for me, and in eco and a battery extender, I never run out of power even doing long days with lots of climbing. 

I use a Ripmo AF (160/147) as my do most everything bike, and the Kenevo SL (170/170) is for big chunk, long days, or when I am beat up and need recovery.


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## EdWiser (Feb 3, 2021)

There are new models introduced at the Taipei cycle show this week that are in the 15 to 20 pound range. Get a light frame and you don’t need that big model to haul you and the bike.


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## RBoardman (Dec 27, 2014)

EdWiser said:


> There are new models introduced at the Taipei cycle show this week that are in the 15 to 20 pound range. Get a light frame and you don’t need that big model to haul you and the bike.


What’s 15-20lbs? The frame + battery + motor? No idea how this compares to other ebikes.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

mtbbiker said:


> Light weight ebikes! Hard to believe there is a class like this, as ebikes became more popular. A common believe among people who do not like ebikes was, ebikers hacking their ebikes for more power. This market for light weight ebikes is growing! These ebikes can come in as light as 38lbs to about 42lbs and have max torque between 35nm to 60nm. In comparison to a full powered ebike coming in around 48lbs to 56lbs and have max torque around 85nm to 105nm.
> 
> How did they do it? Smaller motors and smaller batteries with the exception of the Orbea Rise got a specially tune Shimano EP8 motor. Since the motors do not have as much torque, they do not consume battery power as fast, so the smaller batteries get decent range. Most have small add on battery kits you can install for a little extra range.
> 
> ...


Not in the market, but I'd get that Orbea Rise if I was. The Kenova looks sick, doesn't even look like an e-bike, but it's too expensive for me. 

I feel like people are starting to warm up to e-bikes, or at least accepting them into mainstream. They're not going anywhere, so might as well embrace them. Reminds me of when snowboards started getting popular in the late 90s, and us skiers would complain how they "ruin" the mountain (which they did). No use resisting cause they're not going away. Too much money involved, the market has spoken, and there's gonna a lot more growth over the next decade than any other type of mountain bike.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

mtbbiker said:


> My 1st ebike was a Tazer with the E8000 and 70nm max torque. I found the power to be more than enough. Only problem I had was the small 500wh battery. So I tuned Trail mode to lower power than 70nm and it still had more than enough power.
> 
> I hope Specialized redo their SL motors to put out at least 60nm and I’d buy that ebike in a heart beat! For me 35nm of power is just a bit to low.
> 
> ...





Klurejr said:


> Since I currently ride an intense the Tazer is on my shortlist, plus the lower price is attractive compared to a Levo. If you ran at full boost how long did the battery last? I am guessing you do a lot of riding at 215 and perhaps down at Vail Lake?


I'm in PA but watch a YouTuber (Tommy Huynh) who rides at Vail Lake, Simi Valley, San Clemente, etc ... I'd definitely get an e-bike if I had that kinda terrain near me. Looks SO much fun!!


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

Going to do 2nd ride on my Rise tomorrow , sucks I have to drive 2 hours to ride as trails are still covered in snow, but stoked to ride for sure.


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## 2021Mach6 (Jan 19, 2021)

PS mtb said:


> Going to do 2nd ride on my Rise tomorrow , sucks I have to drive 2 hours to ride as trails are still covered in snow, but stoked to ride for sure.


Which model Rise do you have? Not in the market but looking at them now. I always thought Orbea was overpriced, but compared to similar options, the Rise seems reasonable. I like how you can customize the color on some builds too.


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## Mudguard (Apr 14, 2009)

If I get an e-bike I want Dorados and DH tyres on it. I'm gonna have my cake.


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## kuñaman (Jun 8, 2009)

The Lamborgini of light ebikes is owned by the Andorran brand, Forestal Bikes, it has two models:

Forestal Siryon 170 mm, 64º, carbon frame and integrated on-board computer. It has its own motor created with the collaboration of Bafang, it is the lightest and smallest in the world. 360 Wh of battery and 60 Nm of force. Weight 17,600 M, 18,600 kg L and 19,300 Kg XL with carbon wheels.

Forestal Cyon 160/150 mm, 65º, same as the previous model but its frame weighs 200 gr less.









Forestal


An Andorran brand of in-house produced, high performance bicycles, taking control of every process involved from the design, engineering, manufacturing and assembling.




forestal.com





Cedric Gracia is behind this project, the entire bike has been designed from scratch using proprietary technology. Including the motor and the battery, the latter is charged to 80% in 45 minutes and to 100% in 1.30 hours.


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

2021Mach6 said:


> Which model Rise do you have? Not in the market but looking at them now. I always thought Orbea was overpriced, but compared to similar options, the Rise seems reasonable. I like how you can customize the color on some builds too.


Rise M Ltd


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## Sparticus (Dec 28, 1999)

RBoardman said:


> I have a kenevo SL and I’m still undecided if I like it or not yet. Coming from a moto background, and still ride moto every weekend, the weight was never an issue for me on my previous 2 ebikes. I got the KSL for its descending abilities, but not sure the lack of power is worth it yet. Range is fine if I don’t mind going slow. Or spending more money on range extenders.


I'm with you, RB and my reason might be the same as yours -- moto background. I prioritize boost over weight savings.
I ride an aluminum Trek Rail with aftermarket suspension (more travel) and custom wheels (i40 rims / 29x3" tires) and I ride this thing as if it was an off-road motorcycle.
I can hardly believe the abuse it shrugs off.
Meanwhile if I can't have full power, I'd rather ride my mountain bike.
The full power thing is especially necessary whenever I'm towing a 100+ lb BOB trailer full of trailwork tools.
Personal priorities. I can't deny that I prefer to descend / jump / drop on my much lighter mountain bikes. The 54# Rail lands like a tank.
=sParty


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

kuñaman said:


> The Lamborgini of light ebikes is owned by the Andorran brand, Forestal Bikes, it has two models:
> 
> Forestal Siryon 170 mm, 64º, carbon frame and integrated on-board computer. It has its own motor created with the collaboration of Bafang, it is the lightest and smallest in the world. 360 Wh of battery and 60 Nm of force. Weight 17,600 M, 18,600 kg L and 19,300 Kg XL with carbon wheels.
> 
> ...


I totally forgot about this bike company. I believe they just recently started delivering these Ebikes to customers. The reviews from owners seems to be really positive! 

It’s times like this that sucks to be in the USA! We here have such a small choice of Ebikes compared to Europe. The 2 biggest light weight Ebikes here are Levo SL and Rise. I wish Forestall huge success and hope they can expand and have a good distribution center in the USA


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## RDO (Apr 26, 2016)

mtbbiker said:


> I totally forgot about this bike company. I believe they just recently started delivering these Ebikes to customers. The reviews from owners seems to be really positive!
> 
> It’s times like this that sucks to be in the USA! We here have such a small choice of Ebikes compared to Europe. The 2 biggest light weight Ebikes here are Levo SL and Rise. I wish Forestall huge success and hope they can expand and have a good distribution center in the USA
> 
> ...


I'd be worried about service/warranty issues on the motors. I have had two motor replacements from on two Specialized bikes and they were easy peasy. Being out in the "sticks" one's dealer choices are limited. I would imagine if Forestall comes to the US they'll only show up in big cities like LA, NYC, Seattle,, etc.


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)




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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

PS mtb said:


> View attachment 1975054


2nd ride on this today,


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

2nd ride on this today, seriously rode it about 70% of the time just turned on, no boost. I did bump it 1 level up a few times, same with next setting up, boost to play on last climb. This bike rides extremely well. The Strava was buddy that rode with me on his mtb, I let him set our pace. Not an epic ride, but good early season one.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Meh, the light ebikes with small battery and motor may appeal to riders, which is cool. I owned a Rise and went back to a big battery and big motor. I don’t mind the 50# at all, in fact I prefer it on the downhills. That said it’s cool that there is variety!


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Gutch - is your new Levo the best of all your 'heavies' so far?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Jack7782 said:


> Gutch - is your new Levo the best of all your 'heavies' so far?


Yes


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

RDO said:


> I'd be worried about service/warranty issues on the motors. I have had two motor replacements from on two Specialized bikes and they were easy peasy. Being out in the "sticks" one's dealer choices are limited. I would imagine if Forestall comes to the US they'll only show up in big cities like LA, NYC, Seattle,, etc.


Good point! I hear they use a Bafang motor, who happens to be the biggest ebike motor suppler to the world. I heard, they will allow any bike dealer who sells Bafang motor to do work. But yeah, this could be a problem still.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Gutch said:


> Meh, the light ebikes with small battery and motor may appeal to riders, which is cool. I owned a Rise and went back to a big battery and big motor. I don’t mind the 50# at all, in fact I prefer it on the downhills. That said it’s cool that there is variety!


How many ebikes have you had? What's your latest Levo build?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Focus Jam2, 5 Levos, YT Decoy, Orbea Rise, Trek Rail, I have 3 road ebikes. My latest is a Levo Expert modded. It’s awesome.


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

mtbbiker said:


> Good point! I hear they use a Bafang motor, who happens to be the biggest ebike motor suppler to the world. I heard, they will allow any bike dealer who sells Bafang motor to do work. But yeah, this could be a problem still.


I have a eBike with a Bafang motor and it's a great bike! 1100Wh Batt and 160nm of Torque...it will go anywhere I want it to... I raced XC back in the 80's and 90's and now that I have hit 70 I wanted a bike that I could go anywhere without range anxiety, this one fills that need for me...


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

Gutch said:


> Meh, the light ebikes with small battery and motor may appeal to riders, which is cool. I owned a Rise and went back to a big battery and big motor. I don’t mind the 50# at all, in fact I prefer it on the downhills. That said it’s cool that there is variety!


I may get an Orbea Wild for my wife, more power for sho.


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## markloch (Jul 15, 2021)

e-Zesty AM LTD | 2021 | Lapierre Bikes has the Fazua motor/battery, same as Trek's e-Caliber. If I were (or when I get) in better shape I could see getting something along these lines, provided one could extend range (either with an extender or easy-to-swap battery), but until then I get plenty of exercise on my Trek Rail, way more than I ever got on my old (non-e) MTB.


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

Gutch said:


> Focus Jam2, 5 Levos, YT Decoy, Orbea Rise, Trek Rail, I have 3 road ebikes. My latest is a Levo Expert modded. It’s awesome.


Gutch, why haven’t you tried the full powered Kenevo? 


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

I had been awaiting these, and even built a fairly lightweight GT Zaskar with BBS02 and 6 ah battery (36 pounds). Now that they're available, I'm riding MTB almost exclusively and can't justify an "e".


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Great thread!!!! I have ridden all of these bikes! I have three of them in the garage too. I'll post impressions later.

50+ lb full-powered ebkes will always be the majority of the market. But

they take some getting used to and require more upper body strength in tech terrain
tend to plow into corners and
not as playful in the air or in very active trails
All that power and weight is hard on the drivetrain and brakes
When the bike is hardly moving, (lifting onto rack, moving around in the garage, very slow/tight trails, the weight is noticeable.

The issue is how much power and range is enough for most. Seems like 50 nm and modular batteries are needed to give these light bikes a bigger sweet spot.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Francis Cebedo said:


> Great thread!!!! I have ridden all of these bikes! I have three of them in the garage too. I'll post impressions later.
> 
> 50+ lb full-powered ebkes will always be the majority of the market. But
> 
> ...


Please elaborate on meaning of ‘modular’ -


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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

^meaning it can be easily removed. IE the Kenevo SL/Levo SL cannot be easily swapped out trailside.

Easy is relative of course, I do think it is easy, but not something I would want to do outside of a clean garage.


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## miamia (Sep 6, 2014)

I have Kenevo SL. It is really nice. It has enough power and range for my type of riding and still feels like normal bike. It just makes the hardest part of riding easier. It is a perfect trail bike.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

REZEN said:


> ^meaning it can be easily removed. IE the Kenevo SL/Levo SL cannot be easily swapped out trailside.
> 
> Easy is relative of course, I do think it is easy, but not something I would want to do outside of a clean garage.


I think he may mean more like this concept:


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## SkiTalk'er (Jun 26, 2021)

I wrote this last year...









Review: - Cannondale Habit Neo 2 vs Trek E-Caliber 9.6, Firepower vs MPG


Cage Match Comparison between two eMTB's and how weight makes a difference.




www.skitalk.com





My wife has a eCaliber, a lightweight with the Fazua motor and I have the heavier Habit Neo. I like the feel of the lightweight bke and the nimbleness but also the stability of the heavier one. I think I am going to lean to a lighter model for my next bike ... once the supply chain gets back to normal.


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## PS mtb (10 mo ago)

2021Mach6 said:


> Which model Rise do you have? Not in the market but looking at them now. I always thought Orbea was overpriced, but compared to similar options, the Rise seems reasonable. I like how you can customize the color on some builds too.


I have the m Ltd size large


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

How come no one talks about Bosch and their e-mtb mode that came with the update? To me that mode alone makes all the other ebike motors obsolete. It regulates torque by itself depending on input and other factors so it sips power until you hit a gnarly hill and you get the full power but the second it's over it goes back down to lower power without having to touch it.

A lower power version of the cx performance gen 4 would be killer for something like the rise and offer great range because of e-mtb mode.

Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

gus6464 said:


> How come no one talks about Bosch and their e-mtb mode that came with the update? To me that mode alone makes all the other ebike motors obsolete. It regulates torque by itself depending on input and other factors so it sips power until you hit a gnarly hill and you get the full power but the second it's over it goes back down to lower power without having to touch it.
> 
> A lower power version of the cx performance gen 4 would be killer for something like the rise and offer great range because of e-mtb mode.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk


Unfortunately as you noted, no one puts a Bosch motor into a light weight ebike. 

I’ve never tried a Bosch motor yet, but have had time on the Brose and Ep8. All the reviews I’ve seen on all the motors general rate the motors like this:
Bosch 
Brose
Yamaha and EP8


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## guy_hero (Sep 20, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> How come no one talks about Bosch and their e-mtb mode that came with the update? To me that mode alone makes all the other ebike motors obsolete. It regulates torque by itself depending on input and other factors so it sips power until you hit a gnarly hill and you get the full power but the second it's over it goes back down to lower power without having to touch it.
> 
> A lower power version of the cx performance gen 4 would be killer for something like the rise and offer great range because of e-mtb mode.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk


I thought the definition of pedal assist is “the more power you put in, the more power is puts out”. The level of assist is programmable on the fly; % assist and % of full power. Pedal lightly, then it does not use as much power. That’s how my Levo SL works. What does the Bosch do differently?


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

guy_hero said:


> I thought the definition of pedal assist is “the more power you put in, the more power is puts out”. The level of assist is programmable on the fly; % assist and % of full power. Pedal lightly, then it does not use as much power. That’s how my Levo SL works. What does the Bosch do differently?


The levels dictate the torque. If you are in eco mode and pedal hard it's not going to put out max torque like in turbo. The levo doesn't automatically shift modes from eco, trail, turbo, etc by itself. You have to do it.

Emtb mode on Bosch automatically switches the modes and thus the torque output based on not only your effort but also the terrain. On a very steep hill the motor brain figures this out and will switch itself to turbo mode for max torque for that climb and then go back to tour when it gets flat putting out less max torque without having to touch anything. It's basically a set it and forget it mode which none of the other motors have.

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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

Giant/Yamaha has a 'Bosch Emtb mode' that is called Smart Assist.


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## Tickle (Dec 11, 2013)

I wouldn't want full power on a steep singletrack climb, I also like a little more assist on flatter easier sections sometimes when it would presumably(?)switch into low assist. In theory it does sound good tho, just not sure how much I would actually use it


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Levo SL-
you can set peak power (full motor power) at 100% in each mode. You can also set what percentage of power is applied when you first start pedaling (called support power). As you start ramping up your power, the bike increases it's power level eventually reaching 100% (or whatever peak power you set in the app). It's a longer curve to get to that set peak power in Eco, Trail gets there a bit quicker, etc.


In the mission control app you can set Peak and Support power separately from 0% to 100% in 5% increments.


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

mlx john said:


> Levo SL-
> you can set peak power (full motor power) at 100% in each mode. You can also set what percentage of power is applied when you first start pedaling (called support power). As you start ramping up your power, the bike increases it's power level eventually reaching 100% (or whatever peak power you set in the app). It's a longer curve to get to that set peak power in Eco, Trail gets there a bit quicker, etc.
> 
> 
> In the mission control app you can set Peak and Support power separately from 0% to 100% in 5% increments.


This is the case in the Levo as well. I have my Levo's Eco mode set to 10% support, and 30% peak power, which is what I ride in if I can help it. And my Trail is 25% support/75% peak (which is what I resort to when I've blown up, or started off ill). There's nothing to keep me from setting a 5% support/100% peak in a mode.

All serious mid-drive eMTBs have torque sensors built in. Their power output is proportional to your input torque, not RPM.

So I really don't understand what the Bosch is supposed to be doing differently.

Edit: Wait... does the Bosch have customizable output (both base and peak, to define the output curve) at 5% increments as the Levo/Levo SL do? If each of the assist levels are preset and limited (or fixed) in customizability, then yeah... I can see why a functionality to jump between assist modes might be helpful to such a setup.


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## nilswalk (Nov 26, 2014)

The Levo (and I assume all the Speshy bikes) also has an excellent 3rd party app called BLEvo which can mimic the Bosch Emtb mode, plus a lot more. My favorite is the Smart Power mode which tries to make you responsible for a fixed amount of power and varies the motor up or down depending on the demand.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

+1 on Blevo.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

DtEW said:


> This is the case in the Levo as well.


The one thing that's lacking in mission control for the SL that's an option for the Levo is the acceleration adjustment - 0-100%. I assume that's to adjust the relative power curve in each mode?


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## broccoli rob (Jul 3, 2012)

I just had my first E-bike ride recently, Orbea Rise, so I'm finding lots of great information in this thread. I'm on the fence as far as going lightweight or full power. I'm liking the Marin Alpine trail E2 as I think it may suit my needs better, and a nice price. Could be a handful though. My only complaint about the Orbea was the rear suspension, being a 140mm, felt a bit stiff when things got a little rougher. I really liked how it jumped and cornered though. Guess I just need to test more. Not easy these days though. Cheers


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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

broccoli rob said:


> I just had my first E-bike ride recently, Orbea Rise, so I'm finding lots of great information in this thread. I'm on the fence as far as going lightweight or full power. I'm liking the Marin Alpine trail E2 as I think it may suit my needs better, and a nice price. Could be a handful though. My only complaint about the Orbea was the rear suspension, being a 140mm, felt a bit stiff when things got a little rougher. I really liked how it jumped and cornered though. Guess I just need to test more. Not easy these days though. Cheers


You’ll need to do the research as I’ve seen people long stroke the shock on the Rise. I think they are getting close to 160mm of rear travel and then upping the travel on the fork. 

Problem with that becomes, everything light on the bikes now needs to get beefed up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DtEW (Jun 14, 2004)

mlx john said:


> The one thing that's lacking in mission control for the SL that's an option for the Levo is the acceleration adjustment - 0-100%. I assume that's to adjust the relative power curve in each mode?


You know, I actually haven't played around with that at all. I had set it to 40% extremely early in my ownership after reading in a forum that a firmware update around the same time upset a lot of people who didn't like the change in response... and somebody found that a setting of 40% approximated the feel of the older firmware. In the absence of more experience and opinion, I had decided then to just follow the crowd. I guess I really should play around with it these days.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

mtbbiker said:


> Gutch, why haven’t you tried the full powered Kenevo?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Levo I have handles any riding that I do. I did bump the fork to 170. It’s solid all arounder.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I find the full-power bikes simply too heavy and glued to the ground like a tractor. The Pivot Shuttle (46 lbs) was the only one that felt more nimble and lighter so I got that one. I have been focusing more on riding my diff analog bikes so it sits rather unused. I decided to get a Rise to get an even lighter bike. Lighter is always better for me, since I do not need the power of a full-power e-bike (I never used Turbo except a couple of times to just test it). My Rise should be here next week. I was going to get the Levo SL but the Rise gives me more flexibility and better range with just the main battery, at about the same weight. I just need to find an extended battery for those occasional long /climbs/rides. Now I need to start the mental process of selling a bike instead of hoarding it for no godo reason.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

How lightweight do you really want to go?
I mean you could always grind down your tires tread with some outrunner friction drive, has and is being done. Super duper light weight. I never ridden one so I dont know what they are like in the mud, snow, ice, sand, rocks I sometimes ride about 5-10% of the time.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I think my Pivot is the most nimble and fun of all the full fats (though I am running 27.5 x 3.0 tires which are much nicer than the 2.8s it came with) but the Rise I ordered had a mix-up and they sent out a medium instead of a large. So, I just found a S-Works Levo SL locally and bought it...should be built up in 2-3 days. The Levo SL Expert I rode feels so much more like a regular mountain bike, and I could probably pedal that uphill even if the battery dies. I'll have two extenders, I'm not sure I'll sell my Pivot but it hardly gets ridden so I will give it some though. I suspect I'll use the SL a lot more. Realistically, between road, gravel, the Ripley, and the Levo SL, the Pivot will prob just sit around. Well, my 3-year-old is a time demand too.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Flyer said:


> The Levo SL Expert I rode feels so much more like a regular mountain bike, and I could probably pedal that uphill even if the battery dies. I'll have two extenders


Nice. Mine is almost the same spec as the S-Works. It comes in at 38.82# tubeless with XT trail pedals. Your bike's lighter Traverse SL wheelset will probably get you closer to 38 or maybe even lighter. I've got 2 extenders as well. Haven't had to use the second one. I've done 36 miles and 5000ft of climbing with just the one. I predict you're going to dig the bike.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Thanks for posting, mix john! I'll weigh it but I did read where one weighed 38.25 lbs in size Large...40 lbs or under is quite nice. 5K is usually (I mostly keep it under 4K) my climbing limit on my Ibis, so I can try (once in a while to go 6K+ with two extenders. Will be good to have that spare on long rides. I bet I will not need it but very rarely but it gives me the option to be bold on rare occasions. I also have a route from one pass to another and then into a ski town where we have a condo. The long route is 5,200 ft of climbing so I figured I'd take two on that one just in case. The last 5 miles is a paved gradual uphill to town and it is brutal in the heat after that long ride. The worst thing would be to pedal a 40 lb MTB up to town. It would seriously be soul crushing. It was on my regular bike at the time- a Yeti 4.5.


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

Hey guys. Just posting here for ideas. I've been patiently waiting for my dream ebike am hoping it'll come soon. I'm patient and will wait it out until it hits these metrics: around 40-43 lbs, fully modern enduro bike geo so ~64 degree HTA, steep STA, 475 reach for a size large, ability to run a 200-210mm dropper, 2.5" rear tire clearance, coil compatible, ~150-160 rear/160-170 front travel, 29er (maybe mullet), ~60nm torque, mid-size battery ~500Wh and no motor/clutch rattles. Motor whine noise is ok and doesn't bug me. Seems like a lot to ask but it'll get there. The best analog bikes hit these marks so I just need someone to add a light motor and battery to it! I'd also prefer a very supple suspension platform so 4 bar, Santa Cruz lower link VPP, etc.

Any ideas when something like this will be out? I've demo'd a Pivot Shuttle and I didn't like it at all. Although light'ish for an ebike, the weight still ruined the ride for me. I was in prime end of summer riding season condition and felt the power was totally overkill. I rode it in Eco the whole time. I was however, in St George Utah which doesn't have huge climbs like I have at home in Tahoe, to take advantage of the climbing power. I also rode my buddy's new Rise and the weight and power felt great. Even Eco felt like I was barely doing any work on a steep switchback trail. The deal killers for me though are the rattly motor and geo. Rattles are a no go for me, despite them saying it's "normal". The geo was not too bad and could be fixed with a longer travel fork and/or angleset. It's probably the best "trail" ebike right now for someone like me but still not quite the enduro bike with the traits listed above that I'm looking for. Hopefully one comes before too long but like I said, I'm patient and will wait. I have my Ripmo and a dirt bike so plenty to keep me busy until then.


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

sfr4dr said:


> Hey guys. Just posting here for ideas. I've been patiently waiting for my dream ebike am hoping it'll come soon. I'm patient and will wait it out until it hits these metrics: around 40-43 lbs, fully modern enduro bike geo so ~64 degree HTA, steep STA, 475 reach for a size large, ability to run a 200-210mm dropper, 2.5" rear tire clearance, coil compatible, ~150-160 rear/160-170 front travel, 29er (maybe mullet), ~60nm torque, mid-size battery ~500Wh and no motor/clutch rattles. Motor whine noise is ok and doesn't bug me. Seems like a lot to ask but it'll get there. The best analog bikes hit these marks so I just need someone to add a light motor and battery to it! I'd also prefer a very supple suspension platform so 4 bar, Santa Cruz lower link VPP, etc.
> 
> Any ideas when something like this will be out? I've demo'd a Pivot Shuttle and I didn't like it at all. Although light'ish for an ebike, the weight still ruined the ride for me. I was in prime end of summer riding season condition and felt the power was totally overkill. I rode it in Eco the whole time. I was however, in St George Utah which doesn't have huge climbs like I have at home in Tahoe, to take advantage of the climbing power. I also rode my buddy's new Rise and the weight and power felt great. Even Eco felt like I was barely doing any work on a steep switchback trail. The deal killers for me though are the rattly motor and geo. Rattles are a no go for me, despite them saying it's "normal". The geo was not too bad and could be fixed with a longer travel fork and/or angleset. It's probably the best "trail" ebike right now for someone like me but still not quite the enduro bike with the traits listed above that I'm looking for. Hopefully one comes before too long but like I said, I'm patient and will wait. I have my Ripmo and a dirt bike so plenty to keep me busy until then.


Mondraker Crafty SE. Weight is a little more but has the 60nm tuned Bosch gen 4 so range is longer. 

But the main thing I loved about that bike is that the geometry is perfect. I just didn't want to pay 1.5k more than the one I went with.


Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

gus6464 said:


> Mondraker Crafty SE. Weight is a little more but has the 60nm tuned Bosch gen 4 so range is longer.
> 
> But the main thing I loved about that bike is that the geometry is perfect. I just didn't want to pay 1.5k more than the one I went with.
> 
> ...


Looks like my local shop has one I can go look at. Pricey though!









2022 Mondraker Crafty SE 29" | The BackCountry in Truckee, CA


The BackCountry is an independent ski, bike, and mountain shop located in Truckee, California. In business since 1993, our goal is to provide the best gear, ser




shop.thebackcountry.com


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

sfr4dr said:


> Looks like my local shop has one I can go look at. Pricey though!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Also the reach on large is 490 which seems insanely long but once you ride it you will see why.

Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk


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## AEyogi (Nov 19, 2021)

sfr4dr said:


> Hey guys. Just posting here for ideas. I've been patiently waiting for my dream ebike am hoping it'll come soon. I'm patient and will wait it out until it hits these metrics: around 40-43 lbs, fully modern enduro bike geo so ~64 degree HTA, steep STA, 475 reach for a size large, ability to run a 200-210mm dropper, 2.5" rear tire clearance, coil compatible, ~150-160 rear/160-170 front travel, 29er (maybe mullet), ~60nm torque, mid-size battery ~500Wh and no motor/clutch rattles. Motor whine noise is ok and doesn't bug me. Seems like a lot to ask but it'll get there. The best analog bikes hit these marks so I just need someone to add a light motor and battery to it! I'd also prefer a very supple suspension platform so 4 bar, Santa Cruz lower link VPP, etc.
> 
> Any ideas when something like this will be out? I've demo'd a Pivot Shuttle and I didn't like it at all. Although light'ish for an ebike, the weight still ruined the ride for me. I was in prime end of summer riding season condition and felt the power was totally overkill. I rode it in Eco the whole time. I was however, in St George Utah which doesn't have huge climbs like I have at home in Tahoe, to take advantage of the climbing power. I also rode my buddy's new Rise and the weight and power felt great. Even Eco felt like I was barely doing any work on a steep switchback trail. The deal killers for me though are the rattly motor and geo. Rattles are a no go for me, despite them saying it's "normal". The geo was not too bad and could be fixed with a longer travel fork and/or angleset. It's probably the best "trail" ebike right now for someone like me but still not quite the enduro bike with the traits listed above that I'm looking for. Hopefully one comes before too long but like I said, I'm patient and will wait. I have my Ripmo and a dirt bike so plenty to keep me busy until then.


Have you tried a Kenevo SL? If the full fat EMTB's have too much assist, this thing might be enough.


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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

Look into the Rotwild R375
And review for the R.E375. There is the R.E375 for enduro, R.G375 for gravity and R.X375 for all mountain.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

REZEN said:


> Look into the Rotwild R375
> And review


OP said no rattles  allowed


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

If no rattles wanted the word Shimano should never be uttered 

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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

gus6464 said:


> If no rattles wanted the word Shimano should never be uttered
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk


It's not from the motor but the riders brass balls clanking. 

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

AEyogi said:


> Have you tried a Kenevo SL? If the full fat EMTB's have too much assist, this thing might be enough.


Ridden one in a parking lot is all. It is awesome but the entry level parts at 9k is insane. If they’d update the regular Levo SL with the geo of the new standard Levo and bump the power to 60nm and battery to 500wh I’d be more into it. Price would still be nuts for cheap ass parts though. 

My wife just thinks I should swap my alloy Ripmo for a coil carbon Ripmo and revisit the ebike thing in a few years. I’m probably going this route. I located some bikes in stock and pulling the trigger today probably.


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## AEyogi (Nov 19, 2021)

sfr4dr said:


> Ridden one in a parking lot is all. It is awesome but the entry level parts at 9k is insane. If they’d update the regular Levo SL with the geo of the new standard Levo and bump the power to 60nm and battery to 500wh I’d be more into it. Price would still be nuts for cheap ass parts though.
> 
> My wife just thinks I should swap my alloy Ripmo for a coil carbon Ripmo and revisit the ebike thing in a few years. I’m probably going this route. I located some bikes in stock and pulling the trigger today probably.


It is expensive; I had help from the family as a gift to get it, otherwise I could not have justified the expense. You are a regular on the Ripmo AF thread; hopefully you still pop by after making the transition to carbon.


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

AEyogi said:


> It is expensive; I had help from the family as a gift to get it, otherwise I could not have justified the expense. You are a regular on the Ripmo AF thread; hopefully you still pop by after making the transition to carbon.


Will do. Been in that thread for years and have some friends in there now! I've been "kicking tires" about other bikes for a long time so who knows, I'll probably still be on the AF in a month. Lol


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

So you checked out the Mondraker?

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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

This is BS big time.
Being a small lightweight rider i have no problem with a 53 pounders.
I can use less assist.
I do not need an extender i have 500Wh.
Why pay 10,000 when 4,000$ does the job??????


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

Went into the shop yesterday and they had a new Levo SL carbon elite for $7,800. On Specialized's website, it's listed at over $10,000. I didn't want to say anything in case it's just priced wrong. Any ideas on what's up with the price like is that last year's and this year's? Too bad that bike has old geo with the short reach, steep HTA, regular offset fork, etc. Seemed like a good deal for lightweight carbon ebike with XO1, 36 grip2, etc.


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## springs (May 20, 2017)

sfr4dr said:


> Went into the shop yesterday and they had a new Levo SL carbon elite for $7,800. On Specialized's website, it's listed at over $10,000. I didn't want to say anything in case it's just priced wrong. Any ideas on what's up with the price like is that last year's and this year's? Too bad that bike has old geo with the short reach, steep HTA, regular offset fork, etc. Seemed like a good deal for lightweight carbon ebike with XO1, 36 grip2, etc.


Levo SL is probably going to be replaced shortly hence the price reduction.


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

springs said:


> Levo SL is probably going to be replaced shortly hence the price reduction.


Makes sense. If they update the geo and give it the adjustability of the new regular Levo plus bump the power just a tad to 50-60nm and 500 wh, the thing will be perfect IMO. It’d probably be $10k though. 


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

sfr4dr said:


> Makes sense. If they update the geo and give it the adjustability of the new regular Levo plus bump the power just a tad to 50-60nm and 500 wh, the thing will be perfect IMO. It’d probably be $10k though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's not happening. Specialized is pretty set on there being a big gap between SL and regular tune brose motors. If you want 60nm tune motors then your choice is Orbea rise or Bosch cx cruise based bikes.

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## mtbbiker (Apr 8, 2004)

gus6464 said:


> That's not happening. Specialized is pretty set on there being a big gap between SL and regular tune brose motors. If you want 60nm tune motors then your choice is Orbea rise or Bosch cx cruise based bikes.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk


I really hope you’re wrong here. I love the Kenevo SL, but I would never buy it with a 35nm motor. 60nm upgrade and I would seriously look at it. I bet, if Specialized did that, they would sell a ton more SLs. 


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

mtbbiker said:


> I really hope you’re wrong here. I love the Kenevo SL, but I would never buy it with a 35nm motor. 60nm upgrade and I would seriously look at it. I bet, if Specialized did that, they would sell a ton more SLs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don’t mind the motor but I want a bigger battery. As it is I have to be careful with my power usage to do a 2hr ride.


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

mtbbiker said:


> I really hope you’re wrong here. I love the Kenevo SL, but I would never buy it with a 35nm motor. 60nm upgrade and I would seriously look at it. I bet, if Specialized did that, they would sell a ton more SLs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah 100%! The Orbea Rise is kicking ass and not much heavier. Still lightweight and lower power than the 90nm beasts. 60nm and a smaller main battery with option auxiliary battery just makes sense. This way the bike remains light but has the motor with power there if you want or need it but can run the lighter weight battery on shorter rides. I’ve been talking to lots of SL owners in shops and almost all of them stated they’d like just a bit more power. Even a bump from 35nm to 45 or 50 would be about right.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

sfr4dr said:


> Yeah 100%! The Orbea Rise is kicking ass and not much heavier. Still lightweight and lower power than the 90nm beasts. 60nm and a smaller main battery with option auxiliary battery just makes sense. This way the bike remains light but has the motor with power there if you want or need it but can run the lighter weight battery on shorter rides. I’ve been talking to lots of SL owners in shops and almost all of them stated they’d like just a bit more power. Even a bump from 35nm to 45 or 50 would be about right.


I agree most do not need more than 70 and could be happy with 60nm.
A problem is they have to be super fit to fallow others on boost and more nm.
Here is the kicker most of the riders you talked to are you sure they could not loose 5 pounds?
I guees a 60nm with 400 Wh can be a fun ride.
Is it that differenr than a 70 with 500?
It sounds like a BBQ, there is a contest to look super cool with *the latest*


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

The Levo SLs in stock at dealers are still discounted but as the 202s roll in, they are regular price. If you want one, check the Specialized site and look for local options using your zip code. I just picked up one as did my buddy. We both wanted to keep it under 40 lbs. That weight limit was a must-have for both of us.


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## DMFT (Dec 31, 2003)

Best to play the wait game IMO. . . . . Saw an article on Pinkbike about the new Fazua Motor/Battery which will be coming out soon for Manufacturer's to use.
Shimano will eventually get their game on-point. Might already be actually, I know 3 guys on Transition Repeaters with EP8's and none have complained yet.


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## ridetheridge (Mar 7, 2009)

The Fazua drive unit is over a pound lighter than the EP8. The trend for lighter eMTBs that handle like a traditional MTB will continue, IMO.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/fazuas-new-ride-60-motor-system-has-more-power-and-range.html


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

This is just my point of view.
Some riders are missing important points.
Witn an Ebike we can ride to the trails and ride back home.
Good luck doing that with less than 450Wh.
The SL levo pretends you can ride 5 Hrs
good luck doing that assisted.
Greta told the world, no more bla bla bla.
Pedal, leave your car home or do like i did 22 years ago sell it
PEDAL.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

The Levo SL w/ range extender is 480 wh

5 hours not a problem in this configuration.
It's possible w/ the internal 360 wh battery alone if you use the eco power level primarily.


The SL is not for you if you're not fit, and don't want to put that much work in.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

mlx john said:


> The SL is not for you if you're not fit, and don't want to put that much work in.


Agree totally - especially if you lack the vigor of youth


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

It is more about over paying. You say the 10,000$ price is not enough you need an extender 
so basically we agree a 500Wh is a valuable asset.
Pretending you are so fit,
do you pull your car to the trails?
Is it easier to push it?


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

DMFT said:


> Best to play the wait game IMO. . . . . Saw an article on Pinkbike about the new Fazua Motor/Battery which will be coming out soon for Manufacturer's to use.
> Shimano will eventually get their game on-point. Might already be actually, I know 3 guys on Transition Repeaters with EP8's and none have complained yet.


I completely agree! I'll be waiting it out. Not interested in a 50 lb bike, a rattle trap or dated geometry like the current Levo SL. Last full power ebike I rode, the weight just ruined the ride. I'm a jumper though, like to manual, wheelie, etc. A 50 lb bike just wants to go straight. Can't whip the thing for crap. I could potentially enjoy a modern updated Levo SL with the same 35nm but it'd basically need to be setup geo and travel-wise like the current regular Levo. I would prefer a bit more power though, removable battery, ability to service and upgrade motors over time and the ability to run a 210mm dropper. If someone makes this in alloy and priced like the Rise, I'd be in right now.


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

Been looking at the new Ride 60 setup. Just the right amount of power and battery I’d want, with a very compact form factor. It’s exactly what I’d like slapped into a Transition Sentinel, Ripmo, etc. I’m excited to see what brands and models use this system in this coming year. 









FAZUA - RIDE 60







fazua.com


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

sfr4dr said:


> Been looking at the new Ride 60 setup. Just the right amount of power and battery I’d want, with a very compact form factor. It’s exactly what I’d like slapped into a Transition Sentinel, Ripmo, etc. I’m excited to see what brands and models use this system in this coming year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


‘Small brands’ seem to choose Shimano to get started. Safer bet at the moment. If Trek/Fazua doesn’t sell, what will?


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## gus6464 (Feb 18, 2014)

Fazua is common in road bikes. Maybe it will end up in the new e-domane.

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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

I did a 23.5 miles ride yesterday using only Eco mode on the Levo SL. I climbed 2,550 ft. Using Eco is sort of like riding a bikes a few lbs lighter than my MTB (29 lb Ripley). On my Ripley, I was about around 10 mins slower over that 23.5 miles. After 23.5 miles, I had 66% of the main battery left. I did not use an extender. So that is pretty good. I can conceivably do a 5,000 ft climb in 35 miles if I can use mostly Eco, and not even use an extender, I'll carry one for sure and even two if it is a deathmarch type of ride, but this is encouraging range for me. Trail was a bit too much power so maybe I'll dial that down a bit or just use it for recovery rides. Turbo was way too much and not fun on the trails.


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## OU812 (Sep 19, 2011)

Specialized is announcing a new bike on the 10th, I’m guessing it will be the new Levo SL with a more powerful motor/stumpy evo geometry.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

OU812 said:


> Specialized is announcing a new bike on the 10th, I’m guessing it will be the new Levo SL with a more powerful motor/stumpy evo geometry.


I have no clue about the name but i guess it will only be 22,222$$


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

That is about $17,000 USD, right? My guess is $15,000 for S-Works w/range extender.


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## OU812 (Sep 19, 2011)

Jack7782 said:


> That is about $17,000 USD, right? My guess is $15,000 for S-Works w/range extender.


I was told to expect Levo pricing, couldn’t really get much more info out of my guy. I’ve got money to spend but can’t decide if I should go ahead and buy the Levo. It’s really going to come down to availability, I can get the Levo right now. They’ll announce the new bike on Tuesday but then how long before I can put my hands on one.


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

It won‘t be long until Motorcycles prices will be cheaper than some hi end bikes!


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

LarryMagoo said:


> It won‘t be long until Motorcycles prices will be cheaper than some hi end bikes!


Levo in Quebec/Canada 8,349$ check those 2 motorcycles 5,949$ and 6,149$ and some Ebikes are 18,000$ and up


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## LarryMagoo (Jan 13, 2022)

Prices are just crazy...When Wireless Dropper Seatposts are going for almost $850!!! We, the consumer just gives these prices a vote of confidence when we pay them.....not wanting to sound like a hypocrite, I have paid them myself.... 🤨


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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

LarryMagoo said:


> It won‘t be long until Motorcycles prices will be cheaper than some hi end bikes!


It's already at that point, but you have to compare between spec levels....high end bicycle tolerances are much more controlled than many most $10k motorcycles.

I mean for my car, each damper costs $10k and they needed a rebuild after 500 miles depending on ambient temp and how clean the track was..... for many dampers are $100-1000 per corner.


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

LarryMagoo said:


> It won‘t be long until Motorcycles prices will be cheaper than some hi end bikes!


They already are. Compare any S-Works to a KTM 500EXC, which is a street legal fuel injected top of the line dual sport/enduro bike with Brembos, hydro clutch, cnc parts all over, etc. I love riding MTBs but they're a ripoff in comparison. Also, did I mention you could literally ride the thing around the world AND, it's not made in China?


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

OU812 said:


> I was told to expect Levo pricing, couldn’t really get much more info out of my guy. I’ve got money to spend but can’t decide if I should go ahead and buy the Levo. It’s really going to come down to availability, I can get the Levo right now. They’ll announce the new bike on Tuesday but then how long before I can put my hands on one.


Unless you really must have a full power ebike, I'd wait. 60nm 40 lb ebikes with add-on battery options are the sweet spot. An updated Levo SL with more power and stumpy EVO geo will be an awesome bike as will ones coming out with the Fazua Ride 60 system in the coming year. Maybe other brands with similar motors in the works as well.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

This is a great subject.
Why riders who could loose 12 pounds or more are fascinated by over priced bikes to save 6 or 10 pounds?


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

33red said:


> This is a great subject.
> Why riders who could loose 12 pounds or more are fascinated by over priced bikes to save 6 or 10 pounds?


I currently don't even own an ebike and ride about the best bang for the buck "analog" trail/light enduro bike but...... here's why I'm interested in a light ebike. I'm 5'11" and 175 lbs. No weight to lose. I've demo'd two ebikes; Pivot Shuttle and Orbea Rise carbon. The Shuttle was way too heavy and totally ruined the ride for me. I live in the mountains and ride hard, hit gapped doubles, whip, manual, etc. A heavy bike just ruins the ride for me. The bike just wants to go straight, isn't nimble, etc. The Rise was a lot better but I didn't have time to fully put it through it's paces. All of my home rides start at 6,000' elevation and are usually 2,000-3,000 vertical feet so I'm a strong rider who doesn't need an emtb right now, but enjoys looking and seeing what's coming out. I'd only want minimal assistance and added weight when I do get one, just to "take the edge off".... some day. It'll probably be several years before I get one, not in a rush at all. Most rides where I live range from tough to absolutely brutal if you only ride once a week. It requires 3 days a week of solid riding to maintain the level of fitness needed to fully enjoy the terrain with the vertical feet required. Anyways, that's why I'd like one.


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## OU812 (Sep 19, 2011)

sfr4dr said:


> Unless you really must have a full power ebike, I'd wait. 60nm 40 lb ebikes with add-on battery options are the sweet spot. An updated Levo SL with more power and stumpy EVO geo will be an awesome bike as will ones coming out with the Fazua Ride 60 system in the coming year. Maybe other brands with similar motors in the works as well.


I’m going to wait until Tuesday and see what my LBS tells me, if I can get the new Levo SL by the end of the month then I’ll go that route. I’ve been told by another source that they won’t be available until the fall so who knows at this point.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

sfr4dr said:


> I currently don't even own an ebike and ride about the best bang for the buck "analog" trail/light enduro bike but...... here's why I'm interested in a light ebike. I'm 5'11" and 175 lbs. No weight to lose. I've demo'd two ebikes; Pivot Shuttle and Orbea Rise carbon. The Shuttle was way too heavy and totally ruined the ride for me. I live in the mountains and ride hard, hit gapped doubles, whip, manual, etc. A heavy bike just ruins the ride for me. The bike just wants to go straight, isn't nimble, etc. The Rise was a lot better but I didn't have time to fully put it through it's paces. All of my home rides start at 6,000' elevation and are usually 2,000-3,000 vertical feet so I'm a strong rider who doesn't need an emtb right now, but enjoys looking and seeing what's coming out. I'd only want minimal assistance and added weight when I do get one, just to "take the edge off".... some day. It'll probably be several years before I get one, not in a rush at all. Most rides where I live range from tough to absolutely brutal if you only ride once a week. It requires 3 days a week of solid riding to maintain the level of fitness needed to fully enjoy the terrain with the vertical feet required. Anyways, that's why I'd like one.


How light is your car?
Wih an Ebike you sell your car.
THAT IS BRUTAL
not the way you are fully assisted on your 4 wheels


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

33red said:


> How light is your car?
> Wih an Ebike you sell your car.
> THAT IS BRUTAL
> not the way you are fully assisted on your 4 wheels


sf4dr makes a good case that motor-assist is not for everyone. Maybe he could use one on recovery days? But he may not have the 'mental toughness' to stay off the assist . . .


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

Using only Eco, I did 42 miles and 4,100 ft and had 30% battery left. I did maybe 100 ft of climbing on no power...definitely doable but will wear you down much more over time. I could not do that even on my 7 lb heaver Shuttle with DW Link on those steep sections. Weight on the bike trumps (you feel it a lot more) than similar weight on the body, by far.

This is definitely the sweet spot for me since I like light weight. I'm 6' 177 lbs and hope I can get to 170 by the Fall. I do not need more power but at the same weight, I'll take more range. I will not take more weight for that additional range though I will take less weight for the current range. It feels so close to a regular mtn bike. I'm also pretty impressed by the old Horst Link. It deals with technical climbs and descents quite well. In fact, it is better in certain technical situations than the DW Link, in my experience.


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

Flyer said:


> Using only Eco, I did 42 miles and 4,100 ft and had 30% battery left. I did maybe 100 ft of climbing on no power...definitely doable but will wear you down much more over time. I could not do that even on my 7 lb heaver Shuttle with DW Link on those steep sections. Weight on the bike trumps (you feel it a lot more) than similar weight on the body, by far.
> 
> This is definitely the sweet spot for me since I like light weight. I'm 6' 177 lbs and hope I can get to 170 by the Fall. I do not need more power but at the same weight, I'll take more range. I will not take more weight for that additional range though I will take less weight for the current range. It feels so close to a regular mtn bike. I'm also pretty impressed by the old Horst Link. It deals with technical climbs and descents quite well. In fact, it is better in certain technical situations than the DW Link, in my experience.


Assuming you’re on a Levo SL?


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

Jack7782 said:


> sf4dr makes a good case that motor-assist is not for everyone. Maybe he could use one on recovery days? But he may not have the 'mental toughness' to stay off the assist . . .


I see them like electric cars. I don’t have one now and don’t “need” one now. It’d be nice though. As time goes on, most of us will have them. If one I really like comes out sooner than later, which I bet one will, I’ll take a closer look. I’m not missing much in the meantime. I ride an Ibis and a KTM. Gets me to a lot of cool places as is. I’ll rent an ebike a few times this summer for fun too. 

We already own a RadWagon we use to ride to town, river nearby and along Tahoe paved trails. Electric stuff is fun for sure.


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

33red said:


> How light is your car?
> Wih an Ebike you sell your car.
> THAT IS BRUTAL
> not the way you are fully assisted on your 4 wheels


Sorry I didn’t respond to this because honestly, not even sure what you’re saying here.


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## Jack7782 (Jan 1, 2009)

sfr4dr said:


> I see them like electric cars. I don’t have one now and don’t “need” one now. It’d be nice though. As time goes on, most of us will have them. If one I really like comes out sooner than later, which I bet one will, I’ll take a closer look. I’m not missing much in the meantime. I ride an Ibis and a KTM. Gets me to a lot of cool places as is. I’ll rent an ebike a few times this summer for fun too.
> 
> We already own a RadWagon we use to ride to town, river nearby and along Tahoe paved trails. Electric stuff is fun for sure.


Good words to put it all in perspective. I hope it is OK to say "gas stuff is fun for sure" on the forum.
(I am about to buy a Honda Wave 110 the successor to the Honda Cub)


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

sfr4dr said:


> Assuming you’re on a Levo SL?


Yes, I am. A stock Levo SL Expert.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

sfr4dr said:


> Sorry I didn’t respond to this because honestly, not even sure what you’re saying here.


You wrote ** Most rides where I live range from tough to absolutely brutal if you only ride once a week **
so i suggested you sell your car you will ride daily, probably be in great shape and real slim


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Flyer said:


> Using only Eco, I did 42 miles and 4,100 ft and had 30% battery left. I did maybe 100 ft of climbing on no power...


I've got a Levo SL as well. I went with the full power aluminum Levo at first. 52#. I started off thinking that 500wh battery E-bikes were not an option. And it's true when you're dealing with 50+ pound bikes. 

I didn't think that the 320wh battery of the SL would have any kind of range. The lighter weight, lower power, and more efficient motor/battery management system makes a huge difference. 
I was wrong, obviously. It's got great range with just the internal battery, and you can add 50% more battery capacity with the extender.

The app is genius. The ability to dial in the percentage of power and to set a ceiling of total power in each mode is great, and it feels/rides like a conventional bike.

Curious, what settings are you using in eco and trail?


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

33red said:


> You wrote ** Most rides where I live range from tough to absolutely brutal if you only ride once a week **
> so i suggested you sell your car you will ride daily, probably be in great shape and real slim


I'd like to ride daily but that just doesn't work. I live in Lake Tahoe/Truckee. I would love to commute on bike. Always been a dream of mine actually. Unfortunately due to the location of both my wife's and my employers and our son's school, I have to commute 20 miles. Not a bad commute by today's standards. It's scenic! Much of it is not safe to commute on bike though. Not to mention, we're a ski town which gets absolutely hammered with snow. I do ride about 3 days a week during our season, which is about 6 months. In the off season, I ride a trainer indoors 3 days a week and snowboard. Keeps me felling good.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

So far (only a couple rides) I left it stock so ECO is 35/35. I dialed down TRAIL to 50/50 just yesterday, and I never use Turbo so I left that as-is too. I may turn ECO down to 30/30 or 25/25, and dial TRAIL down to 45/45 or leave it at 50/50 just for longer steep sections. For short sections, I just stand or put down more power while seated, as usual. The one thing I do not want to do is be very assisted and lose strength. 

I will have two extenders so I have have the luxury of TRAIL on certain portions of above-10,000 ft rides and have enough to go for a long time. You are correct- with the lower weight and better efficiency, the range is quite good. I'll play with the app to get ready for this 6K+ ride soon. I probably only need one extender but will take two, just in case. There are some longer steeper climbs so I may use more juice than I am used to seeing. 



mlx john said:


> I've got a Levo SL as well. I went with the full power aluminum Levo at first. 52#. I started off thinking that 500wh battery E-bikes were not an option. And it's true when you're dealing with 50+ pound bikes.
> 
> I didn't think that the 320wh battery of the SL would have any kind of range. The lighter weight, lower power, and more efficient motor/battery management system makes a huge difference.
> I was wrong, obviously. It's got great range with just the internal battery, and you can add 50% more battery capacity with the extender.
> ...


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## sfr4dr (Dec 24, 2004)

Saw some more retailers put their Levo SLs on sale. You know what that means, the new one will be released this fall I bet. I’m anxious to see it. Might be the one for me if it’s basically a Stumpy Evo design with an SL motor and battery!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OU812 (Sep 19, 2011)

sfr4dr said:


> Saw some more retailers put their Levo SLs on sale. You know what that means, the new one will be released this fall I bet. I’m anxious to see it. Might be the one for me if it’s basically a Stumpy Evo design with an SL motor and battery!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I saw the Spesh guys out riding them again last month, if you’re wanting a stumpy evo with a motor you’ll be happy. I couldn’t get much info out of them other than it is a 60nm motor, they wouldn’t say anything about battery size but they all were using range extenders. 2 of them were riding the S-Works with the flight attendant suspension and one had the S-Works with the Fox stuff. They hinted that they were going to be released towards the end of the month, if I was reading the “signals” right😂😂


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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

^Damn, I was really hoping they would not up the torque. I'd rather smaller motor/lighter weight and much less e-bike looking (usually) We shall see, only rumors so far.


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## OU812 (Sep 19, 2011)

REZEN said:


> ^Damn, I was really hoping they would not up the torque. I'd rather smaller motor/lighter weight and much less e-bike looking (usually) We shall see, only rumors so far.


All the major players are at 50-60nm, if Spesh didn’t up the torque it wouldn’t sell. There’s a thread on another forum saying it’s the same motor with a software update and a bit bigger battery. I could see that because from what I saw the motor area looks the same as the current gen, it’s nothing like the TQ or Fazua size on the newest lightweights.


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## gfowkes (Sep 24, 2008)

OU812 said:


> All the major players are at 50-60nm, if Spesh didn’t up the torque it wouldn’t sell. There’s a thread on another forum saying it’s the same motor with a software update and a bit bigger battery. I could see that because from what I saw the motor area looks the same as the current gen, it’s nothing like the TQ or Fazua size on the newest lightweights.


If we knew for sure if was a software update, I would have already bought a KSL. The only reason I'm waiting is the rumor of 50-60nm on the new bike. Tired of waiting...


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## OU812 (Sep 19, 2011)

gfowkes said:


> If we knew for sure if was a software update, I would have already bought a KSL. The only reason I'm waiting is the rumor of 50-60nm on the new bike. Tired of waiting...


Yep…that’s why I passed on the KSL too, really liked the bike but made the mistake of riding the Rise first. If I could have got the KSL with the torque of the Rise I’d have one in my collection.


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## REZEN (Aug 7, 2020)

^This is again where I disagree. I feel the torque even on 100/100 setting is still too much on the KSL (except when over 30% grade on my favorite DH trail which is an 1983ft climb in ~3mi) Even this I use eco/ some trail when lazy. Able to get 2 quick laps out of this ride using my trail mode settings.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

The problem with the current SLs, is they are loud, less power, but not particularly light for the power. From what I've gathered anyways as I have a test ride scheduled for the KSL this week but have yet to ride one. 
Thoughts. 

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## gfowkes (Sep 24, 2008)

REZEN said:


> ^This is again where I disagree. I feel the torque even on 100/100 setting is still too much on the KSL (except when over 30% grade on my favorite DH trail which is an 1983ft climb in ~3mi) Even this I use eco/ some trail when lazy. Able to get 2 quick laps out of this ride using my trail mode settings.


Agree, I demoed the KSL and didn't feel like it was underpowered, but at 58 ys old, and after 25 years of riding the same steep rocky Colorado climbs, I just can't find the motivation to suffer anymore. On days where my heart is not in it, but I still want to ride, will be nice to have a few extra nm to get me motivated.


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