# Are black nipples a bad idea? Brass / Aluminium?



## Orange-Goblin (Jan 27, 2008)

Hoping to get a totally black rim / nipple / spoke combo on my Chris Kings but LBS are suggesting that to have black nipples you have to have Alu ones, and these are weaker. 

Anyone any experience with any of this?

thanks in advance.

J


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## Mwehahaha (Oct 3, 2006)

when wheels fail it is usually bcz the spoke snaps in the middle... not due to nipple failure.


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## RaindogT (Oct 2, 2005)

I might be way off, but I think what the lbs is saying to you is "we can only get black in aluminum..." I have a hard time believing that there are no black nipples in any other material.

With regards to the aluminum thing, I have heard that you probably do not want aluminum for spoke nipples....FWIW.


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## shakenbakebaby (Jan 20, 2007)

My bro has black brass nips. They are DT Swiss somethings. If your bike shop uses QBP then they can get them.


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## Orange-Goblin (Jan 27, 2008)

RaindogT said:


> I might be way off, but I think what the lbs is saying to you is "we can only get black in aluminum..." I have a hard time believing that there are no black nipples in any other material.
> 
> With regards to the aluminum thing, I have heard that you probably do not want aluminum for spoke nipples....FWIW.


Yeah you might be right, just checked their website (It finally loaded!) and DTswiss definitely do black brass ones. I'll see if the LBS can get hold of them. Thanks all!!


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

you will be fine with alloy nipples. i've used only alloy nipples for the past ~10 years without ever having one fail...


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## Heals120 (Apr 16, 2006)

Aluminum nipples have a point where they can fail. I work in a shop and we get a number of old bikes that have aluminum nipps. They reach that point and can strip very easily when you try to true the wheel. They have no disadvantage over how strong your wheel will be.

I'm just building a pair of wheels and wanted to get red DT nipples but I was advised not to, and I know why. Haha, bling is a mind twisting thing.


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## Bobby Peru (Sep 8, 2004)

I've heard that once you go black, you don't come back!


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Mwehahaha said:


> when wheels fail it is usually bcz the spoke snaps in the middle... not due to nipple failure.


That sounds nice on paper, but from experience as a bike mechanic what happens is that serious impacts start to throw off the intial wheel trueing, at this point it's necessary to tighten some spokes a bit, and that's where the aluminum nipples give out, because they can't take nearly as much tension before stripping out as brass nipples. Save yourself the headache and get brass nipples. Down the road you'll be happy.

And you're right, most spokes break at the head or in the middle.

Until you start using aluminum nipples.


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## project_d (Jun 1, 2007)

As you now know, you can get black in either brass or aluminum. I go through rims at a pretty good pace, but it's usually from getting flat spots from smacking up against rocks. So, I can use aluminum nipples no problem, cuz the rim gives out before the spokes or nipples. If you don't go through rims that quickly, then maybe use brass, as you *might *be more likely to have failure via the spokes/nipples. Just my $0.02


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)




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## jonathan_sykes81 (Feb 4, 2007)

No matter what, you can build a stronger wheel using brass spokes. Ask any experienced wheel builder and they will tell you the same thing. Also, it's one less thing you will have to worry about. Use double butted spokes if you are looking to save some weight. I have been running EX 823's, Hope Pro II's, Wheelsmith DB14's & Wheelsmith brass nipples and I have only had to make a few minor adjustments in the past year and I ride about 3-4 times a week and I am a bigger guy.


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## Rover Nick (Jul 13, 2006)

I have black nipples.












The doctors still don't know what's wrong.


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## carbuncle (Dec 9, 2005)

I just had a set built up with black brass nips, Universal has 'em.


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## LarryFahn (Jul 19, 2005)

jonathan_sykes81 said:


> No matter what, you can build a stronger wheel using brass spokes..


They don't make brass spokes! I assume you meant nips... Fahn


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## Iggz (Nov 22, 2006)

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=2278&category=777

Black brass nips on the bottom


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## dwnhlldav (Feb 2, 2006)

Like Jayem said, it's not that they fail, it's that when you have to tighten them they end up stripping or rounding off. They also corrode faster and are just a total pain in the ass. If you can get black in brass go for it, but if you're working on you're own stuff and don't wreck wheels often save your self the hassle and avoid aluminum.


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## Wiz (Dec 2, 2004)

Quality laced up my CKs to 819s w/DTs and brass nips...nice & All in black. I like em.


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## vic_likes_bikes (Jan 19, 2008)

there is nothing wrong with Alloy nipples, the shop that told you this is wrong. I have built up over 3000 wheels in my day and have raced DH with alloy nipples for 10 years without breaking many, last count 5 broken nipples in 10 years. as far as them not tensioning up as well as a brass nipple that also is inaccurate. I can get just as much tension on them, if you build them up correctly using spoke prep and lubing the nipples so they spin freely on the rim you will almost never round out a nipple. Use the correct nipple wrench and check your wheels after about 20 days of riding on them for the first time and you almost never have to touch them again.
that being said use wheelsmith spokes and nipples I like the way they build up better than DT. Especially on King hubs DT spokes do not fit well through the hub drillings. Or use Sapim spokes they also build up very well compared to DT, someone started a myth that DT were the best and in my experience that is not the case at all.


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## Heals120 (Apr 16, 2006)

The shop that told him that is not wrong at all. I'm a mechanic at a shop and I have been working Fridays only for 3 weeks this season and already stripped or shattered 3 alloy nipples. This is highly due to age though, most of the bikes have been 8 or more years old.


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## vic_likes_bikes (Jan 19, 2008)

what's your point you can round off a brass nipple if you don't know what you are doing also. His shop told him they weren't as strong as brass and that is completely inaccurate. Brass is actually softer than the alloy as metals go and the reason they are used is because they it was cheap and they tend to form to the rim and create a good interface between rim and nipple, and are a little more tolerant of uneven tension. Machine built wheels tend to have really bad uneven tension, because the machine doesn't take rim irregularities into account like a human does, so the brass is more forgiving of a bad build. the reason alloy nipple break is usually poor tension or over tension of that nipple. If you lube the nipples when you build the wheel or are truing the wheel you will never round out an alloy nipple unless you have a ridiculously out of true rim or bad flats spots and at that point brass nipples can also break and round out because you are bottoming the nipple on the threads. if you start just turning the nipple till tight then you will round out an alloy nipple.

I am a 200lb DH racer who is not the kindest on my wheels and I have never had issues with alloy nipples and neither has alot of other riders. Usually nipple breakage is due to poor wheel building.


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## lalocotequinta (Mar 28, 2007)

tacubaya said:


>


??? are you in the entertainment industry?


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## juice (Feb 8, 2004)

Do any of you wrenches know the weight diff between alloy and brass nips for a 32 hole? I just toasted a hub and will probably be building up a new rear wheel. If it saves >50 grams I might consider aluminum nips, but otherwise stick with tried and true brass.

I also like to run my spoke tension pretty darn high, but from the responses on this thread it seems like lube/prep 'em up like you're supposed to and I'll be fine.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

vic_likes_bikes said:


> as far as them not tensioning up as well as a brass nipple that also is inaccurate. I can get just as much tension on them.


Lol, that is a good one.

As was said before, that "initial build" is nice and dandy, but the alloy nipples aren't worth the headache in the long run. Yes, I've built plenty of wheels for myself and others in the shop. Thinking that alloy nipples are on par with brass is pretty rediculous. You'll round out the alloy nipples before you can "just as much tension". Tell me this; What is "spoke-prep" for?


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## konut (Mar 25, 2006)

dt and sapim both do black nipples,in brass.

http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=products&sub=nipples


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## Orange-Goblin (Jan 27, 2008)

Yeah thanks all, some interesting discussion here. Got the LBS to source Dt Prop-lock black brass nipples for me job done. Slightly worried bout vic_likes_bikes comment about Dt not fitting CK hubs very well??????


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## Orange-Goblin (Jan 27, 2008)

vic_likes_bikes said:


> there is nothing wrong with Alloy nipples, the shop that told you this is wrong. I have built up over 3000 wheels in my day and have raced DH with alloy nipples for 10 years without breaking many, last count 5 broken nipples in 10 years. as far as them not tensioning up as well as a brass nipple that also is inaccurate. I can get just as much tension on them, if you build them up correctly using spoke prep and lubing the nipples so they spin freely on the rim you will almost never round out a nipple. Use the correct nipple wrench and check your wheels after about 20 days of riding on them for the first time and you almost never have to touch them again.
> that being said use wheelsmith spokes and nipples I like the way they build up better than DT. Especially on King hubs DT spokes do not fit well through the hub drillings. Or use Sapim spokes they also build up very well compared to DT, someone started a myth that DT were the best and in my experience that is not the case at all.


Is DT on Chris King really that bad an idea? I've never heard this before, and CK don't mention it anywhere? Not sure what my LBS will use, but DT are usually the norm over here (UK)......


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## carbuncle (Dec 9, 2005)

No, it's fine. People just have personal preferences.


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## milhouse (Jun 22, 2004)

Sine you are going with black brass nipples, it dont matter much but I have used alloy nipples and like others have said, initially there is not much of a strength issue with alloy. Its only after having to re-true or re-tighten nipples later that they WILL fail.


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## hply3 (Apr 28, 2008)

vic_likes_bikes is obviously not fully with it... don't worry about the spokes in the ck hub, brass is the way to go, it's tried and true, go to any LBS and as what nipples to use and they will say brass. why even argue the fact when everyone else says brass is the way to go, i think some people just like to argue.... i used to have a room mate like that... he doesn't live there anymore.


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## mobile chernobyl (Apr 12, 2006)

I have a few wheels built up with alu nips. Its not always the case of a jump thats going strip them out, I've had more strip out just by having a rock come loose and fly into them. 

In my opinion - Use 12mm brass every time, the weight you'll save by going to aluminum is not worth the time of replacing them if you are at all serious about racing DH.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

lalocotequinta said:


> ??? are you in the entertainment industry?


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## 545cu4ch (Aug 11, 2005)

tacubaya said:


>


nice


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