# USA E-Bike Market Doubles in Units and Value



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

USA E-Bike Market Doubles in Units and Value


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

And?


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

And they make great urban commuters for those wiling to give up their car.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

chazpat said:


> And they make great urban commuters for those wiling to give up their car.


Agreed, best use.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Large changes in small numbers.


----------



## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

I think e-bike for commuting is a great thing. less cars on the road, healthier people, less pollution. e-mtb's on the other hand don't really have the same benefits and come with their own set of drawbacks. More trail erosion due to longer trail use, trail traffic at higher speeds which will be at odds with other trail users such as equestrians, hikers, joggers. And one that just occurred to me, the more frequent calls to the emergency room (E-Room for those taking notes) by riders who are over their heads on terrains they probably not skilled enough to ride through. So yes e-bikes can be good, but e-mtb's probably needs closer look.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Lemonaid said:


> I think e-bike for commuting is a great thing. less cars on the road, healthier people, less pollution. e-mtb's on the other hand don't really have the same benefits and come with their own set of drawbacks. More trail erosion due to longer trail use, trail traffic at higher speeds which will be at odds with other trail users such as equestrians, hikers, joggers. And one that just occurred to me, the more frequent calls to the emergency room (E-Room for those taking notes) by riders who are over their heads on terrains they probably not skilled enough to ride through. So yes e-bikes can be good, but e-mtb's probably needs closer look.


None of what you fear has occurred in Europe where e-MTBs are simply not even noticed by other users.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Mookie said:


> Large changes in small numbers.


About the same as MTB sales in 1983.

What happened after that?


----------



## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

honkinunit said:


> None of what you fear has occurred in Europe where e-MTBs are simply not even noticed by other users.


How can you measure the impact of e-mtb's on trail erosion in such a short time?


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

honkinunit said:


> None of what you fear has occurred in Europe where e-MTBs are simply not even noticed by other users.


Europe is different, diversity is good. If we homogenize into the the exact same thing there would be no reason for anyone to take a European vacation, or vice versa.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

I've recently moved to a region where I'm constantly climbing. Rides frequently have 2500-3000 feet of climbing, and at high altitude. While I have seen a few of these bikes at bike shops, I don't see anyone riding them. And moreover, seeing them at bike shops and constantly being hawked market-wise (anyone have that Trek video-mmercial just start auto playing here on MTBR?? I turned it right off as soon as I realized it was about E's.) reminds me in a round-about way, while I am sucking for air at over 11,000ft, that I would never ride one. Defeats the purpose, entirely. 

See em in the shops, don't see em on the trails, and yes they would stand out like sore thumbs.


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

honkinunit said:


> None of what you fear has occurred in Europe where e-MTBs are simply not even noticed by other users.


Did European mountain bikers have to fight for trail access, or were they simply not even noticed by other users?


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Lemonaid said:


> How can you measure the impact of e-mtb's on trail erosion in such a short time?


e-MTBs have been in Europe for at least five years.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Cornfield said:


> Did European mountain bikers have to fight for trail access, or were they simply not even noticed by other users?


Class 1 ebikes are simply recognized as bicycles in most European countries. They can go anywhere a bicycle can in Germany and Switzerland, for example. No one cares, because they are simply assisted MTB's. Why would anyone care?


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

jochribs said:


> I've recently moved to a region where I'm constantly climbing. Rides frequently have 2500-3000 feet of climbing, and at high altitude. While I have seen a few of these bikes at bike shops, I don't see anyone riding them. And moreover, seeing them at bike shops and constantly being hawked market-wise (anyone have that Trek video-mmercial just start auto playing here on MTBR?? I turned it right off as soon as I realized it was about E's.) reminds me in a round-about way, while I am sucking for air at over 11,000ft, that I would never ride one. Defeats the purpose, entirely.
> 
> See em in the shops, don't see em on the trails, and yes they would stand out like sore thumbs.


We are all amazed at your aerobic awesomeness.

Your purpose for using a trail is not the same purpose as other riders, ebike riders, horseback riders, hikers, climbers, or any other user.

Stick out like sore thumbs? I guarantee you have seen an ebike and didn't even notice. Take a look at a Specialized Levo. From 20 feet you have to look *really* hard to tell it is an ebike:

https://www.outsideonline.com/2090891/electric-mountain-bike-will-make-you-believer


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

> Therefore the 'Electric Theatre' together with our partner Bosch will provide a series of free sessions presented by top experts in the world of e-bikes today who will deliver valuable insights to retailers and suppliers alike."
> *Some of the topics to be discussed are "Where can I ride my e-bike?"*, social & traditional media outreach for e-bikes & beyond and the US market trends.


I would be interested to sit in on this panel or see a recording of it. Would be interesting to see what Bosch has to say about trail access.


----------



## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

Cornfield said:


> Did European mountain bikers have to fight for trail access, or were they simply not even noticed by other users?


The real difference is that European cultures are simply unconcerned with judging how other people choose to enjoy their free time.

Maybe they didn't have to fight much for trail access becuse no one felt the need to take it away from them. So you're correct, it likely has barely been noticed.

By continuing to judge and regulate how others can "morally and ethically" have fun, we're propagating basic issues with American culture. Make some new laws and others will be compelled to break them.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> I would be interested to sit in on this panel or see a recording of it. Would be interesting to see what Bosch has to say about trail access.


The panel will be five Europeans scratching their heads over the hysteria around ebikes in the US, someone from People for Bikes, and several industry representatives trying to figure out why US riders are so butthurt over ebikes, when MTBs had to go through the exact same thing 20-30 years ago and were hit with the same labels and twisted logic that some MTB riders use on ebike riders now.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

honkinunit said:


> The panel will be five Europeans scratching their heads over the hysteria around ebikes in the US, someone from People for Bikes, and several industry representatives trying to figure out why US riders are so butthurt over ebikes, when MTBs had to go through the exact same thing 20-30 years ago and were hit with the same labels and twisted logic that some MTB riders use on ebike riders now.


Will they gloss over the fact that they are not bicycles? That they are motorized?


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

life behind bars said:


> Will they gloss over the fact that they are not bicycles? That they are motorized?


They will use the more correct European definition, shared BTW with several states in the US, that they are simply pedal-assist bicycles.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

FM said:


> The real difference is that European cultures are simply unconcerned with judging how other people choose to enjoy their free time.
> 
> Maybe they didn't have to fight much for trail access becuse no one felt the need to take it away from them. So you're correct, it likely has barely been noticed.
> 
> By continuing to judge and regulate how others can "morally and ethically" have fun, we're propagating basic issues with American culture. Make some new laws and others will be compelled to break them.


 Take away? The laws for motorized vehicles have been in place for decades, at least here in MA. The trails are open to all users, just not all with a motor.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

honkinunit said:


> We are all amazed at your aerobic awesomeness.
> 
> Your purpose for using a trail is not the same purpose as other riders, ebike riders, horseback riders, hikers, climbers, or any other user.
> 
> ...


Aerobic awesomeness comes from doing the work. Period. (We're also very impressed with your screen name...why do you even need an e-bike?)

Really though, the point of saying that was to correlate that I still wouldn't even consider one under the much higher strain of each and every ride, compared to my pretty much sea-level rides for the past 22 years, and that if not now, then when? Who are doubling these sales? Path riders?

I can spot an e-bike. At a glance. And I've seen the Levo...in shops...just not on any trails that I have been on. Just strong folks where I am now. Nary an e-bike in sight.

Edit... that article is having the opposite effect of what they intend...for me at least.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

jochribs said:


> Aerobic awesomeness comes from doing the work. Period. (We're also very impressed with your screen name...why do you even need an e-bike?)
> 
> Really though, the point of saying that was to correlate that I still wouldn't even consider one under the much higher strain of each and every ride, compared to my pretty much sea-level rides for the past 22 years, and that if not now, then when?


Get back to us when your are in your 60's.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

leeboh said:


> Take away? The laws for motorized vehicles have been in place for decades, at least here in MA. The trails are open to all users, just not all with a motor.


Yes, you are definitely Massachusetts. All laws are immutable, and handed down by God, and are not to be questioned, even in the face of changing technology, society and economics.

One of the reasons I don't live east of the Mississippi, after spending my first 27 years there.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

honkinunit said:


> Get back to us when your are in your 60's.


I'm 41. Don't see it changing.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

jochribs said:


> I'm 41. Don't see it changing.


Of course you don't. You think 41 is old.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Is 60 old?? There are tons of 60 plus folks out there that still use their own power whether they view themselves as old or not. 

My father in law is 72. Can't get that dude to slow down. And that's after valve replacement. 

If an e-bike looks like a good idea to me because of age, I don't need to ride anymore. 

We're getting off the point here though. Sales have doubled allegedly, but I haven't seen any on my trails back home, nor where I am now. Not to say that there haven't been any on them, but I am not seeing them, and again, I can, quite easily, spot them.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> The panel will be five Europeans scratching their heads over the hysteria around ebikes in the US, someone from People for Bikes, and several industry representatives trying to figure out why US riders are so butthurt over ebikes, when MTBs had to go through the exact same thing 20-30 years ago and were hit with the same labels and twisted logic that some MTB riders use on ebike riders now.


I was being genuine, you seem to be taunting me and others with this smart ass reply.

Was that your intention? Comparing trail access in the US to Europe is a losing battle, stop doing it. What works in Europe does not work in the US and visa versa, that has been proven time and again over the last few centuries.

Plus just because eBike sales have doubled, does not mean the sales of MountBike eBikes have doubled, there was actually zero info in that article to parse out what sort of eBike sales have been increasing here in the US.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> Yes, you are definitely Massachusetts. All laws are immutable, and handed down by God, and are not to be questioned, even in the face of changing technology, society and economics.
> 
> One of the reasons I don't live east of the Mississippi, after spending my first 27 years there.


 Trying to make some kind of point? Yes, e bikes sales growing in the US. The US is not the EU. I think e bikes are great fit for the commuter, the cargo bike and kid hauler rides, all good there. Laws are enacted by the legislature, elected by the voters. Don't like the laws? Change them, the elected or the laws. Get a caucus, form a group, hold some meetings and be proactive. Or just be content with the status quo. And don't lump me in with MS or NY, that is another conversation. See also my post" e bikes are motorized vehicles"


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

leeboh said:


> Trying to make some kind of point? Yes, e bikes sales growing in the US. The US is not the EU. I think e bikes are great fit for the commuter, the cargo bike and kid hauler rides, all good there. Laws are enacted by the legislature, elected by the voters. Don't like the laws? Change them, the elected or the laws. Get a caucus, form a group, hold some meetings and be proactive. Or just be content with the status quo. And don't lump me in with MS or NY, that is another conversation. See also my post" e bikes are motorized vehicles"


The laws have already changed for ebikes on the road. Colorado and Utah have adopted the same rules, and P4B and other advocates are working to get a uniform adoption, even in MA.

https://www.bikelaw.com/2017/08/colorado-electric-bicycle-laws/

The same advocates are now working on trail access. It is inevitable. There are now ebikes that are *completely* indistinguishable from a non-ebike. How do you think that woman got away with riding pro level cyclocross races with an ebike? Once people realize that situation, they will come to the conclusion the Class 1 ebikes *are* simply bicycles, and there is no reason to differentiate, even on trails. It simply doesn't matter.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Stick out like sore thumbs? I guarantee you have seen an ebike and didn't even notice. Take a look at a Specialized Levo. From 20 feet you have to look *really* hard to tell it is an ebike:


So why are ebike manufacturers and fans so big on making ebikes look like actual bicycles? Why do they use the term "stealth" so much? I think they should be required to have a large yellow decal that says "ebike" on the downtube so that we don't have to worry about other trail users confusing them with bicycles.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Klurejr said:


> I was being genuine, you seem to be taunting me and others with this smart ass reply.
> 
> Was that your intention? Comparing trail access in the US to Europe is a losing battle, stop doing it. What works in Europe does not work in the US and visa versa, that has been proven time and again over the last few centuries.
> 
> Plus just because eBike sales have doubled, does not mean the sales of MountBike eBikes have doubled, there was actually zero info in that article to parse out what sort of eBike sales have been increasing here in the US.


Bicycles are a worldwide industry. What happens in Europe *does* matter in the US.

What works in Europe would work just fine in the US, and that is exactly where we will end up eventually.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Get back to us when your are in your 60's.


Go visit the Fifty+ Years Old Forum, plenty of 60+ riders of mountain bicycles, some 70+.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

honkinunit said:


> The same advocates are now working on trail access. It is inevitable.


With even more working to prevent access, it is not inevitable. Land mangers just laugh when they see these Unicorn scenarios.


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

chazpat said:


> Go visit the Fifty+ Years Old Forum, plenty of 60+ riders of mountain bicycles, some 70+.


Many with demonstrable "aerobic awesomeness". It comes form putting in the effort to stay fit. Not everything is better because it's easier. It's sort of emblematic of our society. We want the rewards without putting in the effort.


----------



## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

honkinunit said:


> e-MTBs have been in Europe for at least five years.


Conclusive studies based on such a small sample size? I think you just like to make up facts.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Considering that 2016 US adult bike sales are @ 2,400,000 units, the numbers are still small, but the growth is not surprising, I'm glad to see them gaining some traction in the market tbh. I find the numbers reporte here a bit odd though, since there were well over 200,000 ebikes imported into the US in 2016, does that mean that 185,000 will sell in the second half of the year? Are these emtb sales? It's not clear.

US Market: When Will E-bike Sales Really Start?

Not mentioned in the article is that the majority of ebikes sold are ebikes for people to ride on bike paths, not emtbs, bought by people that have no interest in riding on trails.

This is the most popular ebike in the US for example with @ 10,000 of them out there: Sondors e-bike review - Business Insider

With the #1 ebike retailer being Pedego with over 100 stores.

Pedego Electric Bikes Ranks Number 2349 on the 2016 Inc. 5000 With Three-year Sales Growth of 155 Percent - Pedego Electric Bikes

I know a few mtb riders that have bought ebikes, none of which want them on singletrack, so the perception that everyone is rushing out to buy an emtb is not accurate.


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> The same advocates are now working on trail access. It is inevitable. There are now ebikes that are *completely* indistinguishable from a non-ebike. How do you think that woman got away with riding pro level cyclocross races with an ebike? Once people realize that situation, they will come to the conclusion the Class 1 ebikes *are* simply bicycles, and there is no reason to differentiate, even on trails. It simply doesn't matter.





honkinunit said:


> Bicycles are a worldwide industry. What happens in Europe *does* matter in the US.
> 
> What works in Europe would work just fine in the US, and that is exactly where we will end up eventually.


It is as if you have not read one other thread on this board that has beaten this topic to death....

It is not inevitable here in the US and eBikes are not "simply bicycles". eBikes are already banned on many trails, and there is a blanket ban on them for Forest Service and BLM Trails.

https://www.blm.gov/policy/ib-2015-060

Please stop spouting the same re-hashed rhetoric that keeps getting pushed around, saying "they are coming, just get used to it" is not going to work.

This thread is starting to veer towards being closed down.....


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

chazpat said:


> So why are ebike manufacturers and fans so big on making ebikes look like actual bicycles? Why do they use the term "stealth" so much? I think they should be required to have a large yellow decal that says "ebike" on the downtube so that we don't have to worry about other trail users confusing them with bicycles.


This sounds good Chazpat! Or paint the battery/motor area on them pink, and call the models Bessie after cows with utters...or better yet, "The Baboon". That's what that area on the Levo reminds me of. A baboon's posterior.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> The laws have already changed for ebikes on the road. Colorado and Utah have adopted the same rules, and P4B and other advocates are working to get a uniform adoption, even in MA.
> 
> https://www.bikelaw.com/2017/08/colorado-electric-bicycle-laws/
> 
> The same advocates are now working on trail access. It is inevitable. There are now ebikes that are *completely* indistinguishable from a non-ebike. How do you think that woman got away with riding pro level cyclocross races with an ebike? Once people realize that situation, they will come to the conclusion the Class 1 ebikes *are* simply bicycles, and there is no reason to differentiate, even on trails. It simply doesn't matter.


 All states have DOT regs for the classes of users. Bikes, e bikes, motorcycles, tractors, etc. And definitions. Even the EU limits the off road to 250 watt pedal assist. Don't confuse DOT regs with off road multi use trails. On state property, town property, conservation land and private reservation land trusts( What we ride on for the most part here in MA and New England) It's a motorized vehicle, not a bike. See also, my post " ebikes are motorized vehicles" And all these land managers have rules and regs banning motorized vehicles. Please work on your facts and definitions. Stickies at the start of this forum. Wait until some hi powered one takes out a trail user. You think no one will mod? The EU has rules against that stuff too. Didn't that woman cross racer get fined and banned for years when she got caught? Hmmm, something to think about. Guess she didn't get away with it.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Harryman said:


> With the #1 ebike retailer being Pedego with over 100 stores.
> 
> Pedego Electric Bikes Ranks Number 2349 on the 2016 Inc. 5000 With Three-year Sales Growth of 155 Percent - Pedego Electric Bikes


And in the county that I live in, they are not even allowed to be used on the 'paved' bike paths, unless you are handicapped, I believe. There's one of their shops over in Breckenridge, and another in Vail, but here near the Breck location at least, the bike path signs all state no electric bikes (Summit co.). They have to do their Pedego tours on the road. And there are a ton of bike paths here. Probably the same thing over in Vail (Eagle co.) although I am not sure.


----------



## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

Klurejr said:


> eBikes are already banned on many trails, and there is a blanket ban on them for Forest Service and BLM Trails.


That's incorrect. Here in Washington State, there are hundreds- maybe thousands of miles of FS trails that are open to motorcycles- and thus eBikes. No?

I recently spoke with a full-time employed trail builder here. His take was that the moto demographic is shrinking, and eBikes will be a good thing as the increased demand will protect those trails and the FS jobs that support them. Mountain bikers are not using them, largely because we have purpose built mountain bike trails here now- thanks to Evergreen and the DNR.



Klurejr said:


> This thread is starting to veer towards being closed down.....


I'm in favor of closing down this whole forum. There's zero useful discussion of product or "mountain bike reviews". It's a troll forum, even the forum rules are blatantly anti-eBike.

Furthermore: Per the current Forum rules, "_Ebikes aren't bikes. They also aren't motorcycles. They are a new and different thing._" If the MTBR owners and admins stand behind this, then the _eBikes_ forum should be archived, and a new "www.EMTBR.com" site should be created.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

chazpat said:


> Go visit the Fifty+ Years Old Forum, plenty of 60+ riders of mountain bicycles, some 70+.


The number of 60-70 year old MTB riders is a very small fraction of the number of that population who rode in their 20s-40s.

I know that because I am 57 myself. When I was in my 30's, it was no problem to get a bunch of co-workers out for a ride or a trip to Moab. Now, I end up riding almost exclusively with people 20 or more years younger than I am because the vast majority of people I used to ride with have quit. Many have switched to motos or ATVs, and almost every one of them who I talk with about eBikes say they would love to get back on mountain bike trails with one, instead of wrestling with the pain and expense of dirt bikes or ATVs. But of course, since *every* mountain bike trail on the Front Range is shut off to e-MTBs, they ride motorcycles and ATVs until they either hurt themselves or don't want to deal with them any more. Then they quit doing anything active. And this is in Colorado, one of the fittest and most active states in the country.

I'm laughing my ass off at these replies from people who are obviously under 50. You all think you are just going to love going for a five hours MTB ride with 4000 feet of climbing at age 55 or 65 or 75. The people still riding mountain bikes on singletrack at age 60 are outliers. Hell, I'm an outlier at age 57.

You can't give the wisdom of age away, goes the old saying. You all are going to be kicking yourselves when you get older for shutting down trails to class 1 ebikes.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

jochribs said:


> And in the county that I live in, they are not even allowed to be used on the 'paved' bike paths, unless you are handicapped, I believe. There's one of their shops over in Breckenridge, and another in Vail, but here near the Breck location at least, the bike path signs all state no electric bikes (Summit co.). They have to do their Pedego tours on the road. And there are a ton of bike paths here. Probably the same thing over in Vail (Eagle co.) although I am not sure.


The law in Colorado now says Class 1 and 2 ebikes are allowed on all streets and paths unless specifically prohibited. As time goes on, popular demand will force Summit to change and allow Class 1&2 on paths. Hell, even Boulder changed.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

honkinunit said:


> The law in Colorado now says Class 1 and 2 ebikes are allowed on all streets and paths unless specifically prohibited. As time goes on, popular demand will force Summit to change and allow Class 1&2 on paths. Hell, even Boulder changed.


Well as of currently, the signs are 'specifically' prohibiting them here. Unless you are handicapped.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

honkinunit said:


> You all are going to be kicking yourselves when you get older for shutting down trails to class 1 ebikes.


That, is doubtful. Cracking the door to access for motorized traffic should be prevented at the risk of more powerful, faster motorized vehicles being included. Slam the door now before it's too late.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

leeboh said:


> All states have DOT regs for the classes of users. Bikes, e bikes, motorcycles, tractors, etc. And definitions. Even the EU limits the off road to 250 watt pedal assist. Don't confuse DOT regs with off road multi use trails. On state property, town property, conservation land and private reservation land trusts( What we ride on for the most part here in MA and New England) It's a motorized vehicle, not a bike. See also, my post " ebikes are motorized vehicles" And all these land managers have rules and regs banning motorized vehicles. Please work on your facts and definitions. Stickies at the start of this forum. Wait until some hi powered one takes out a trail user. You think no one will mod? The EU has rules against that stuff too. Didn't that woman cross racer get fined and banned for years when she got caught? Hmmm, something to think about. Guess she didn't get away with it.


Oh yes, the tired Red Herring of the "mod".

This is *exactly* the argument used against MTBs by hikers in the 80's and 90's. "Oh my god, some out of control mountain biker will kill me!!!!!, they must be banned!!!" Fear logic again.

How about this? If someone mows down a hiker, they are punished, whether they are on an XC hardttail, a 6-inch travel traillbike, or a Class 1 or 2 ebike? If someone rides a Class 3 or outlaw eBike, they are busted. How hard is this to grasp?


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

honkinunit said:


> The number of 60-70 year old MTB riders is a very small fraction of the number of that population who rode in their 20s-40s.
> 
> I know that because I am 57 myself. When I was in my 30's, it was no problem to get a bunch of co-workers out for a ride or a trip to Moab. Now, I end up riding almost exclusively with people 20 or more years younger than I am because the vast majority of people I used to ride with have quit. Many have switched to motos or ATVs, and almost every one of them who I talk with about eBikes say they would love to get back on mountain bike trails with one, instead of wrestling with the pain and expense of dirt bikes or ATVs. But of course, since *every* mountain bike trail on the Front Range is shut off to e-MTBs, they ride motorcycles and ATVs until they either hurt themselves or don't want to deal with them any more. Then they quit doing anything active. And this is in Colorado, one of the fittest and most active states in the country.
> 
> ...


Have you considered the possible shift in ability between 'some' of those that are now 50,60,70 and those that are going to be 50,60,70 in the next 10,20,30 years? And I highlight 'some' because I honestly believe that there are a great deal of very fit and 'earn it' minded riders (even if not entirely fit) that are much older than me, in the general MTB population and in this forum/thread alone...that are those ages now. That said, I think that there will be even more in the coming generations because of the higher levels of activity that are pretty much normal now. That is as long as the E-industry doesn't Kool-aid everyone into thinking they 'need help'.

I promise you, I'll be pedaling uphill when I am 70. I think I can speak for quite a few in this thread as well.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

I'll be 54 next month, so I'm not under 50. I'd say I'm more fit now than I was in most of my 20s; I'm 15-20 lbs lighter than when I graduated college.

If your friends want to ride dirt bikes or ATVs, that's fine, but they would be healthier if they rode bicycles instead. So your saying the motors make them healthier doesn't seem like much of an argument to me.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

54 here. Plenty of mt biking does not involve giant mountains. Open your eyes. Lots of different rules, riding, styles around, not just what you see. Did some awesome bikepacking in VT this summer. 170 miles in 4 days, lot of climbing and plenty of saddle time. The bike only weighed about 60 lbs with food and water. Great trip. Gee, once I turn 60 I have play golf or sit on the couch all day? Not. Getting old doesn't mean I have to use a motor. Folks even live longer in the EU too. Ever hear of the masters division for sports like running?


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

chazpat said:


> I'll be 54 next month, so I'm not under 50. I'd say I'm more fit now than I was in most of my 20s.
> 
> If your friends want to ride dirt bikes or ATVs, that's fine, but they would be healthier if they rode bicycles instead. So your saying the motors make them healthier doesn't seem like much of an argument to me.


Exactly. I'd say there is more correlation between the using one in the first place and 'needing one' later.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

life behind bars said:


> That, is doubtful. Cracking the door to access for motorized traffic should be prevented at the risk of more powerful, faster motorized vehicles being included. Slam the door now before it's too late.


Fortunately, most humans are capable of a nuanced evaluation of the situation than "Motor equal NO!"


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

FM said:


> That's incorrect. Here in Washington State, there are hundreds- maybe thousands of miles of FS trails that are open to motorcycles- and thus eBikes. No?


Sorry I was not clear, the ban is on eBikes riding on trails that do not allow "motorized vehicles".... Yes of course they are allowed on the same trails with other motorized vehicles.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

leeboh said:


> 54 here. Plenty of mt biking does not involve giant mountains. Open your eyes. Lots of different rules, riding, styles around, not just what you see. Did some awesome bikepacking in VT this summer. 170 miles in 4 days, lot of climbing and plenty of saddle time. The bike only weighed about 60 lbs with food and water. Great trip. Gee, once I turn 60 I have play golf or sit on the couch all day? Not. Getting old doesn't mean I have to use a motor. Folks even live longer in the EU too. Ever hear of the masters division for sports like running?


Thumbs friggin up Leeboh! See, this is what I am talking about. Awesome!


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

honkinunit said:


> Fortunately, most humans are capable of a nuanced evaluation of the situation than "Motor equal NO!"


But it is the evaluation across huge swaths of the U.S. which you don't seem to be able to grasp. 58 years old by the way, no motor needed either.


----------



## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

I enjoy the discussion and banter back and forth, but this is devolving just like every other thread seems to. No one is changing anyone else's mind here nor will they. 

For the record, I'm 55 and in better condition than when I was in my 30s. I don't see me stopping unassisted pedaling up hills anytime in my future but time will tell, I guess.

As I mentioned previously, I see a parallel in many other areas of our society. Making things easier is not necessarily making them better. Having to work hard for something and reaping the rewards is not a bad thing. 

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see where the market goes and where the rules and regs. evolve with regard to trail use.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

leeboh said:


> 54 here. Plenty of mt biking does not involve giant mountains. Open your eyes. Lots of different rules, riding, styles around, not just what you see. Did some awesome bikepacking in VT this summer. 170 miles in 4 days, lot of climbing and plenty of saddle time. The bike only weighed about 60 lbs with food and water. Great trip. Gee, once I turn 60 I have play golf or sit on the couch all day? Not. Getting old doesn't mean I have to use a motor. Folks even live longer in the EU too. Ever hear of the masters division for sports like running?


Well, if you have issues preventing you from riding mountain bike trails after age 60, then yes, you change to sitting on the couch or doing something else.

There is very little mountain bike riding in Colorado that does not involve significant climbing, and when I say "significant", I mean climbing that requires more than average fitness. In fact, I can not think of a single trail that I would consider to be a mountain bike trail that the vast majority of my 50+ co-workers could ride without walking a significant amount.

I'll say it again. A *very* small percentage of people continue riding mountain bikes on actual mountain bike trails after age 50.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

chazpat said:


> I'll be 54 next month, so I'm not under 50. I'd say I'm more fit now than I was in most of my 20s; I'm 15-20 lbs lighter than when I graduated college.
> 
> If your friends want to ride dirt bikes or ATVs, that's fine, but they would be healthier if they rode bicycles instead. So your saying the motors make them healthier doesn't seem like much of an argument to me.


Getting someone out on an eBike rather than an ATV would be a win for them aerobically.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> Well, if you have issues preventing you from riding mountain bike trails after age 60, then yes, you change to sitting on the couch or doing something else.
> 
> There is very little mountain bike riding in Colorado that does not involve significant climbing, and when I say "significant", I mean climbing that requires more than average fitness. In fact, I can not think of a single trail that I would consider to be a mountain bike trail that the vast majority of my 50+ co-workers could ride without walking a significant amount.
> 
> I'll say it again. A *very* small percentage of people continue riding mountain bikes on actual mountain bike trails after age 50.


 Yikes. People just become couch potatoes after 60? Plenty of mt bikers ride when older, lots. Plenty of mt bikers ride NOT on giant mts. Like the middle 1/3 of the country. East coast, hills and smaller mts. You are straying, start a new topic, dude. Maybe you need some more in shape co workers?


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

life behind bars said:


> But it is the evaluation across huge swaths of the U.S. which you don't seem to be able to grasp. 58 years old by the way, no motor needed either.


It is the lazy, brainless way of deciding who can use a trail, because the paradigm is that something is either a bicycle or a motorcycle rather than doing actual work and really evaluating the reality that technology has produced. Black and white thinking is the bane of our society.


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> The number of 60-70 year old MTB riders is a very small fraction of the number of that population who rode in their 20s-40s.
> 
> I know that because I am 57 myself. When I was in my 30's, it was no problem to get a bunch of co-workers out for a ride or a trip to Moab. Now, I end up riding almost exclusively with people 20 or more years younger than I am because the vast majority of people I used to ride with have quit. Many have switched to motos or ATVs, and almost every one of them who I talk with about eBikes say they would love to get back on mountain bike trails with one, instead of wrestling with the pain and expense of dirt bikes or ATVs. But of course, since *every* mountain bike trail on the Front Range is shut off to e-MTBs, they ride motorcycles and ATVs until they either hurt themselves or don't want to deal with them any more. Then they quit doing anything active. And this is in Colorado, one of the fittest and most active states in the country.
> 
> ...


I'm 55 and see plenty of other old farts riding in the front range. I'm pretty fond of a 5 hour ride with 4k in climbing when I can manage to pull one off too and I'm no monster rider either.

I'm always a little baffled by the argument that getting people who gave up riding mtbs because it was too hard years ago back on an emtb is somehow important? Everyone I know who wants to be active, stays active, no matter what their limitations. They get up off of the couch and go do things. I fully expect to age out of mtbs at some point either because I'm not fit enough, or don't want to risk crashing any longer. I'll start road riding or gravel riding more, hiking more, birdwatching, competitive mobility scooter racing, whatever. I don't see why trail systems need to cater to my increasing fraility.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

leeboh said:


> Yikes. People just become couch potatoes after 60? Plenty of mt bikers ride when older, lots. Plenty of mt bikers ride NOT on giant mts. Like the middle 1/3 of the country. East coast, hills and smaller mts. You are straying, start a new topic, dude. Maybe you need some more in shape co workers?


"Plenty of mt bikers ride when older?" I guarantee less than 0.1% of the population over 50 rides actual mountain bike trails with any regularity.

They are called "Mountain Bikes" for a reason. There are very few trails in Colorado that don't involve significant climbing, and the entire state is "at altitude".


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> "Plenty of mt bikers ride when older?" I guarantee less than 0.1% of the population over 50 rides actual mountain bike trails with any regularity.
> 
> They are called "Mountain Bikes" for a reason. There are very few trails in Colorado that don't involve significant climbing, and the entire state is "at altitude".


 OK, that's CO. Great. Not everyone lives in a mt state. Get it? Got facts for your population study? Here or in the EU?


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> I'll say it again. A *very* small percentage of people continue riding mountain bikes on actual mountain bike trails after age 50.


You do realize that is only your own personal perspective that has no factual proof to back it up right?

I know a few people over 50 who ride. None of them ride eBikes. But again that is only my personal experience.....

To speak in generalities about something that cannot be verified does little good to anyone.


----------



## JAK (Jan 6, 2004)

*I don't see why trail systems need to cater to my increasing fraility[sic]. *

Yeah, no sh!t eh?! Man, whatever happened to bringing yourself up to the challenge? I guess in the age of 'I want it now', 'trustafarianism', 'you do it', 'gimmee-gimmee' what the hell should we expect?? It's all about me so everyone accommodate ME. This whole argument is frikkin laughable. It is a motorbike.

Ha! on the 50yo BS. I have a couple good buddies that are in or well above that age and frikkin rock the bike and from what I can tell would probably scoff at this e(e=soft)bike crap.


----------



## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

honkinunit said:


> It is the lazy, brainless way of deciding who can use a trail, because the paradigm is that something is either a bicycle or a motorcycle rather than doing actual work and really evaluating the reality that technology has produced. Black and white thinking is the bane of our society.


 Lazy when referring to ebikes? And rather than doing actual work? Hmmm. Just paraphrasing you here. See also, stickies at the start of this forum. Motorized or not? Seems pretty clear. Yes, for sure, tech sometimes out paces rules and regs. Driverless cars? Just let them roll? CA seems to be the test case. Gov and state regs move at a slow pace sometimes. You could just move to the EU? yes? The ban on motorized vehicles for off road trails is what the law is now, for plenty of areas, Don't like it ? Change it. Calling a motorized bike just a bike won't help. To all concerned trail users and managers. Have you checked out the defined EU regs on e bike usage and watts? Do so. Higher watt ones not allowed, higher watt ones are regulated and controlled ( wait for it) like a motorcycle. Hmmm.


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

Klurejr said:


> I know a few people over 50 who ride. None of them ride eBikes. But again that is only my personal experience.....


It would seem to me that a good portion of active members here in the forums are at least 50. I feel like a youngster at 42.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

leeboh said:


> Yikes. People just become couch potatoes after 60? Plenty of mt bikers ride when older, lots. Plenty of mt bikers ride NOT on giant mts. Like the middle 1/3 of the country. East coast, hills and smaller mts. You are straying, start a new topic, dude. Maybe you need some more in shape co workers?


I'm not sure I'd say that it requires more than average fitness out here. I would liken it to requiring more than average patience. The climbs are MUCH LONGER here than back east where I rode for 22 years. However, it is more of an aerobic effort, rather than an anaerobic one, like it was back home. I recall guys that would come from this area to our training races back home that would have a hard time with that initially. They were doubled over and nearly puking trying to sprint up every climb and gas it on the way down. Here you start climbing, settle into a gear that you can keep pushing and for me, try to focus on keeping my breathing in good time. Not too fast, not too slow. Still getting used to starting my rides at 9300 ft. But it's coming along. I find that I actually start shifting up a gear once I'm settled here.

***Edit...sorry Leeboh, was responding to a post of Honkin's...not sure how I qouted yours.


----------



## Lemonaid (May 13, 2013)

45 here.. get up in age. Still get out paced by guys 10+ years older than me so any argument that age is a factor is perplexing to me.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> "Plenty of mt bikers ride when older?" I guarantee less than 0.1% of the population over 50 rides actual mountain bike trails with any regularity.
> 
> They are called "Mountain Bikes" for a reason. There are very few trails in Colorado that don't involve significant climbing, and the entire state is "at altitude".


How can you be 60? I picture a 9 year old stamping his feet when he can't get his way. Are you going to hold your breath until we let you ride your ebike on our trails?


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

honkinunit said:


> They are called "Mountain Bikes" for a reason. There are very few trails in Colorado that don't involve significant climbing, and the entire state is "at altitude".


I drove out here. The first half of this state is identical to Kansas. You don't start 'really' going up until you come through Denver. Although that's already at 5k+, but breathing isn't really hard until you're at 9 or 10k and up. The folks that hike 14'ers have my respect.


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

honkinunit said:


> Now, I end up riding almost exclusively with people 20 or more years younger than I am because the vast majority of people I used to ride with have quit. *Many have switched to motos or ATVs*


That's funny, I thought we had just established in another thread that riding motos was strenuous exercise, just like riding a mountain bike...


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

leeboh said:


> Higher watt ones not allowed, higher watt ones are regulated and controlled ( wait for it) like a motorcycle. Hmmm.


And Class 1 and 2 eBikes are regulated and controlled (wait for it) like a bicycle. Hmmm.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Cornfield said:


> That's funny, I thought we had just established in another thread that riding motos was strenuous exercise, just like riding a mountain bike...


Riding a moto or ATV fast is one of the most strenuous things you can do. But you don't have to go fast, and riding slowly is within the capabilities of even less than stellar athletes.

Riding a mountain bike fast is actually less strenuous than doing motocross, but riding slow is not easy on tough or hilly terrain.

This ain't rocket science.


----------



## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

I probably live in a bit of a unique place, but I know quite a few people who are 50 and older (some a lot older) who actively ride mtn bikes. And I'm not talking about putting along on smooth trails, but getting after it on long, challenging rides that would leave a lot of flatlanders gasping. Hell, I'm only a few months away from 50 myself, live at 6200' and am in the best shape of my life, riding as hard as I ever have. And I know someday that will fade of course, but I'll still be happy riding as much as I can, on a _real_ bike.



Cornfield said:


> That's funny, I thought we had just established in another thread that riding motos was strenuous exercise, just like riding a mountain bike...


Welcome to the ever-shifting, circular logic of the e-bike world. Just pick whichever group (old, physically disabled, extremely fit...) seems to fit your point in the moment.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

jochribs said:


> I drove out here. The first half of this state is identical to Kansas. You don't start 'really' going up until you come through Denver. Although that's already at 5k+, but breathing isn't really hard until you're at 9 or 10k and up. The folks that hike 14'ers have my respect.


There are only a handful of trails in Colorado east of I-25 that anyone would classify as true mountain bike trails, and most of them are so infested with goatheads that they aren't worth riding.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Smithhammer said:


> I probably live in a bit of a unique place, but I know quite a few people who are 50 and older who actively ride mtn bikes. And I'm not talking about putting along on smooth trails, but getting after it on long, challenging rides that would leave a lot of flatlanders gasping. Hell, I'm only a few months away from 50 myself, live at 6200' and am in the best shape of my life, riding as hard as I ever have. And I know someday that will fade of course, but I'll still be happy riding as much as I can, on a _real_ bike.
> 
> Welcome to the ever-shifting, circular logic of the e-bike world. Just pick whichever group (old, physically disabled, extremely fit...) seems to fit your point in the moment.


How many over 60? How many over 70?


----------



## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

honkinunit said:


> How many over 60? How many over 70?


I know a number of people over 60 who still mtn bike.

But if you really want to focus on specific numbers, how many people over 60, or over 70, who aren't riding mtn bikes on mtb trails now are suddenly going to take it up with access to trail mopeds? I'm going to go out on a limb and say "barely any." And if that's what you're hanging your hat on for your "growing user group" then good luck.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Lemonaid said:


> 45 here.. get up in age. Still get out paced by guys 10+ years older than me so any argument that age is a factor is perplexing to me.


These "arguments" are tiresome. You are seeing outliers.

At age 61, Jack LaLanne swam the length of the Golden Gate Bridge while handcuffed and towing a boat weighing 1000 pounds.

And that proves what?


----------



## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

honkinunit said:


> Get back to us when your are in your 60's.


_Later, that same day...._



honkinunit said:


> These "arguments" are tiresome. You are seeing outliers.
> 
> At age 61, Jack LaLanne swam the length of the Golden Gate Bridge while handcuffed and towing a boat weighing 1000 pounds.
> 
> And that proves what?


Seems like _you_ brought it up, no? Sorry you didn't get the answer you wanted to support your anecdotal opinion.


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Smithhammer said:


> I know a number of people over 60 who still mtn bike.
> 
> But if you really want to focus on specific numbers, how many people over 60, or over 70, who aren't riding mtn bikes on mtb trails now are suddenly going to take it up with access to trail mopeds? I'm going to go out on a limb and say "barely any." And if that's what you're hanging your hat on for your "growing user group" then good luck.


I think if Ebikes are allowed on trails, you will see people from 10-80 enjoying trails who otherwise would not be out there having fun.

I rode Slickrock a few weeks ago and ran into a father and son who were both on ebikes. The father was probably mid-40's, and very fit. He said he had a dozen bikes, but rode his Levo for fun. His son was about 10, on a different pedal-assist ebike, and was having a blast.

For those who have never ridden Slickrock, it is incredibly steep in places. I have never seen a 10 year old out there that wasn't miserably pushing their bike at least 25% of the time, usually with their parent's assistance. My son, who is an awesome rider, never rode the entire loop until he was 13. It wasn't any fun for him until he was strong enough to clean most of it and effectively push what he couldn't.

ebikes are an enabling technology for people of all ages. Using Slickrock as an example, what was the downside to those guys riding ebikes? What would be the downside to them riding those bikes on any other trail in Moab?


----------



## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

honkinunit said:


> ebikes are an enabling technology......?


On _that_ point I will agree with you. And it would probably be the only point. The rest of it isn't worth having more circular arguments with you.

Bicycles are human powered. Anything else isn't a bicycle. And if someone rides a trail moped to the top of Slickrock, that's one thing. Buy they didn't _bike _to the top of it. On this, you will never convince me otherwise, so we should probably just stop there.


----------



## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

honkinunit said:


> I think if Ebikes are allowed on trails, you will see people from 10-80 enjoying trails who otherwise would not be out there having fun.
> 
> I rode Slickrock a few weeks ago and ran into a father and son who were both on ebikes. The father was probably mid-40's, and very fit. He said he had a dozen bikes, but rode his Levo for fun. His son was about 10, on a different pedal-assist ebike, and was having a blast.
> 
> ...


What about the people that are older and more feeble. Why not let them use more and more power. What about the people that are just too lazy and more out of shape. Where does it end. If it has motor, pedal assist or not, stay on the OHV trails. It is just that simple.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Oh goodie, everyone gets a participation trophy! Let's built escalators on the cliffs so everyone can rock climb! Can't deny those old fogie 60 and 70 year olds and the kids!


----------



## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

leeboh said:


> Lazy when referring to ebikes? And rather than doing actual work? Hmmm. Just paraphrasing you here. See also, stickies at the start of this forum. Motorized or not? Seems pretty clear. Yes, for sure, tech sometimes out paces rules and regs. Driverless cars? Just let them roll?


New technology requires new thinking, and in some cases, new regulations, when the old regs no longer fit. Some regs are made obsolete by technology, like blanket bans left over from the "everything is a bicycle or motorcycle" paradigm. Thanks for making my point.

Remember when you were not allowed in a movie theater carrying a camera? How well would that work today?


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

honkinunit said:


> These "arguments" are tiresome. You are seeing outliers.
> 
> At age 61, Jack LaLanne swam the length of the Golden Gate Bridge while handcuffed and towing a boat weighing 1000 pounds.
> 
> And that proves what?


This is not even remotely the same as people continuing to ride the same trails under their own power that they always have.

That french guy walked a cable between the twin towers back in the 70's...all other tree to tree slack-liners are outliers by that logic? Maybe we should develop auto balance gyro's for the 2 foot off the ground slack-liners?


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

chazpat said:


> Oh goodie, everyone gets a participation trophy! Let's built escalators on the cliffs so everyone can rock climb! Can't deny those old fogie 60 and 70 year olds and the kids!


Well, we don't want any feelings hurt, or long faces, now do we?


----------



## Cornfield (Apr 15, 2012)

chazpat said:


> Oh goodie, everyone gets a participation trophy! Let's built escalators on the cliffs so everyone can rock climb! Can't deny those old fogie 60 and 70 year olds and the kids!


How about assisted weight lifting?

Now I can bench 300lbs with lift-assist!


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Aaaaaaand now this thread has fully derailed from the original topic.


----------

