# The current lighting market: what are we really getting for the $$?



## rlb81 (Aug 18, 2008)

I posted this on my local forum but I wanted to start the discussion here as well since there is a large cross section from both the domestic loyalists as well as the overseas loyalists. I see mostly X light vs Magicshine or Y light vs Gemini threads but I haven't seen a through discussion of simply the Chinese lights vs "domestic" lights (whether they be from the US, Canada, UK etc). I realize that the domestics are using parts made in China, but I'm really talking more about the parent company and what they offer.

I've had minor interest in bike lights for the past few years and have decided to finally buy. Dinotte has always interested me as a quality US brand and of course the Magicshine is on my radar for obvious reasons. I've bee reading a lot and trying to decide this: Am I really getting more for my money from a domestic brand? Am I really truly saving with the overseas lights? I don't want to part with anything unnecessarily, whether it be my money or quality of product.

While the US companies seemed slow to adopt the LED technology (at first) I think most of the current domestic stuff is way ahead of where it was just a few years ago. With that in mind has anyone been able to make a fair comparison between the magishines/geminis etc. and L&M, dinotte, lupine etc.?

I'm typically one for saving money where I can but I find it curious that the cheap lights get so many nods from the cycling crowd. We could all ride walmart bikes yet we're on bikes that are at least 10x the price. My point is that we see the value in spending the extra money. I typically live by "you get what you pay for" and wouldn't hesitate to spend the extra money if I was genuinely getting more.

Considering this, is the increased R&D and customer service/warranty from the domestics really not enough to stick out amongst the overseas stuff? Are they (overseas) really that good? Is the performance equal to lights that are 2x the price? People say that their high $$ lights perform better than the cheap lights but I'm not sure if that's truth or people just trying to re-justify the money they spent.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

Why I went with a Dinotte XML3.... The price to lumen ratio was second only to a MS, at the time. I really liked the beam pattern. Their reputation for quality products and service.... and.... I absolutely wanted to support a US company, if deemed viable.

Why I may pick up a light made in china next - I only need it for a backup, and I don't want to spend much $.

I would expect opinions to basically boil down to - if they've had problems with their lights or not. High end lights can fail too, and some low end lights may never fail, but we all know some have. Some have problems with customer service, and others claim great service, both with the same company. _You puts your money down, you takes your chances._


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## betweenrides (Oct 19, 2010)

My experience with bike lights mirrors my experience with flashlights. Virtually everything is made in China with few exceptions. I've bought direct from China; cheaper, yes, but quality is hit or miss and forget about consistent ship times or God forbid warranty you can actually claim. On most things I purchase now it's from US distributors if possible. Fast shipping, warranty and yes, just slightly more expensive but worth it. My tastes are middle of the road: not interested in cheap crap, not interested in overpriced uber high quality. Middle of the road works fine for me - and glad to see domestic companies like L&M, Dinotte, Baja Designs, etc. step up to the plate for good 'value' lights. MagicShine is the equivalent of Ultrafire* in the flashlight world - tons of clones, inconsistent quality, pretty on the outside but open 'er up and she's stuffed with dooky. 

*Not available in all markets; Ultrafire is not to be confused with but may actually be: Trustfire, Fandyfire, Uniquefire, Prairiefire, Slowfire, Won'tfire, Didfire, Didn'tfire, Backfire, Campfire, Pantsonfire, Sh1tfire, Bigfire, Firefire or any other product containing fire in the description.....


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## jugdish (Apr 1, 2004)

Mmm, for my money I get a chance to own the trails at night. Quite a bargain, IMO.


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## bigbadwulff (Jan 18, 2012)

I'm betting lights go waaaaay down in price in a couple years. Right now things are kinda crazy. Hopefully it will be like computers. Starting business in 1996 a computer was like $1,200. Today one that does infinitely more is a lot less. Well, if you steer from Apple that is


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

What are we really getting for the $$ ??

Right now, we are getting brighter, lighter, smaller lights with longer run-times, for less $ than years past. Thank you technology.

My old light was a Jet halogen, big heavy battery pack but it got me hooked. Great build quality & great company.
New light I tried Gemini Xera. So far the build quality is great, everything has been working awesome, so no complaints.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

*Maybe... maybe not*



bigbadwulff said:


> I'm betting lights go waaaaay down in price in a couple years. Right now things are kinda crazy. Hopefully it will be like computers. Starting business in 1996 a computer was like $1,200. Today one that does infinitely more is a lot less. Well, if you steer from Apple that is


The reduction in price has much less to do with the technology becoming cheaper, and much more to do with the intense competition within China's own bike light industry. The LED's themselves are already a very small percentage of the total cost of the light and they can build controller electronics for practically nothing. Optics are very cheap. The remaining cost items are batteries, housings, and LABOR. But if you think about it, the housings are mostly labor cost as well. And guess what China pays for labor... Not sure there's much room to go lower there.


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## rlb81 (Aug 18, 2008)

I wanted to clear up my intent/stance on this thread. I'm merely asking are we saving money buying cheap lights or wasting money buying expensive lights?

I don't think either of these are true. I'm not really into the disposability of the cheap lights, not do I want a super high end $500+ lamp. I think the mid level domestic lights are the best overall value. I wanted to see if I was alone on this or not.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

rlb81 said:


> I wanted to clear up my intent/stance on this thread. I'm merely asking are we saving money buying cheap lights or wasting money buying expensive lights?
> 
> I don't think either of these are true. I'm not really into the disposability of the cheap lights, not do I want a super high end $500+ lamp. I think the mid level domestic lights are the best overall value. I wanted to see if I was alone on this or not.


Mid-level products are sometimes called mainstream products, when compared with bargain basement or boutique products.

I think the majority of people are in the same situation. People are leery of purchasing cheap Chinese products but of course don't want to plonk down huge amounts of wonga on what some may see as overpriced lamps Magicshine and Lupine immediately spring to mind.

In most products, there is usually a sweet spot where the return on investment yields the highest efficiency.

This is a little bit different from the products were talking about in this thread, but if we're to talk about socks, there is an excellent example.

I have spent varying amounts of money on socks over the years. I have spent a little money at pound land on some really cheap nasty socks which lasted about two or three wears before they fell apart.
Bought some reasonably priced socks which I still wear and last for as long as one could hope for. Then of course there's the stylish socks which although are no warmer than the regular socks and last as long as the regular socks, one is tending to pay more for the intangible aspects of the sock: ie style.

Now if this particular aspect, style, is important to you then you have to pay the money in order to receive it. Whether this is a waste or not is really down to the individual's needs and budget.

So does this answer your question? Probably not. Cheap shite breaks down or doesn't perform, expensive shite looks good and often performs more than is necessary, between them is happy medium and everyone sits somewhere on it.

Millions of cyclists ride nothing more than a blinky on the road commuting, and most of them don't die in horrific car accidents. But some people are willing to pay little bit more for the added security. That's where I sit: a bit more light a bit more security and I feel that's good enough as long as my Lights don't break down in the middle of the night leaving me in the dark or suddenly short out when it's raining then I'll be very happy.


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## Action LED Lights (Nov 11, 2011)

pethelman said:


> The reduction in price has much less to do with the technology becoming cheaper, and much more to do with the intense competition within China's own bike light industry. The LED's themselves are already a very small percentage of the total cost of the light and they can build controller electronics for practically nothing. Optics are very cheap. The remaining cost items are batteries, housings, and LABOR. But if you think about it, the housings are mostly labor cost as well. And guess what China pays for labor... Not sure there's much room to go lower there.


I'd like to add my nickels worth here. I've been an engineer in new product design for 30+ years and have produced products here (in the US) and in China, including LED flashlights.
The major cost in new bike lights is in the Li-ion batteries. They are followed by the driver circuit, the LEDs, and the aluminum for the housing
The housing in fact has almost no labor in it as it's produced on a CNC machining center. Stick in a bar of aluminum and say go. Lots of chips and housings come out the other end. A quick check as they come out and then off for anodizing which is a batch process.
In fact, there is very little labor in the process of putting together the light itself. Final assembly is attaching the power cord to the driver, running wires from the driver to the led, and screwing everything together. (well, maybe a little more to it)
A good quality custom driver is in fact a fair amount of cost.

The last 2-3 years have seem performance go way up and the prices come way down and I don't seen the trend changing anytime soon. If you follow CREE they are constantly coming out with brighter and more efficient LEDs at ever cheaper prices. Driver circuits are being mass-produced for many applications bringing their price lower. And I expect Li-ions to come down to as volume goes up and technology improves. 18650 Li-ion cells are becoming the standard and are used everywhere, even in the Tesla that uses big packs of them because the price to performance ratio is better than custom batteries.
As is obvious, getting into the bike light market has never been easier. Technology and the Internet have resulted in the number of choices multiplying at an ever increasing rate. Except for the little China companies fighting it out at the bottom of the food chain there are a lot of good products showing up almost on an almost monthly basis. One advantage the new smaller companies have is flexibility. Niterider produces hundreds of thousands of a new light and fills their warehouse and the warehouses of Bike Nasbar and Amazon etc. If a newer LED comes out it's a year before they can come out with a new model. The new small companies can now almost build to order and carry almost no inventory. They can constantly be improving there product (assuming they have some good engineers) and have a new or improved version every few months. What now sets the good companies apart from the not so good is the quality of the components they use and customer service. That's why I have chosen to work with Gemini. Their quality standards are very high and customer service is a top priority.


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## Bernhardt (Mar 25, 2006)

So why do you also sell MS? 

BTW, anyway to avoid the flashing when turning off a Titan?


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Bernhardt said:


> So why do you also sell MS?
> 
> BTW, anyway to avoid the flashing when turning off a Titan?


It's just a guess, but I'd wager because people buy them.


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## Action LED Lights (Nov 11, 2011)

You got it. 
MS's are still not a bad deal if you buy them from a reputable seller who will provide their own warranty program. 
I always think it's good to offer a Good-Better-Best product selection. (the best part of that is coming soon) But I think Gemini offers a better value overall. Especially if reliability is important to you.
As far as your question about the strobe. On the Titan, you have to suffer through a couple flashes of the strobe to get to off. (Unless you just unplug it) However you don't have to cycle through strobe or off to change brightness levels. 
With the Xera or the new Olympia you can go straight to off by holding the button for 1 second. Strobe is reached by holding the button from the off position.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

Action LED Lights said:


> ...small companies can now almost build to order and carry almost no inventory. They can constantly be improving there product (assuming they have some good engineers) and have a new or improved version every few months.


All good info, but this struck me as a great point. I saw this firsthand with Dinotte. I bought a 400L a few years back, was impressed, and some *six months* later bought another.
The second was way brighter than the first!
Rob at Dinotte said they had gotten a new batch of LEDs or something. Constant improvements whether we know it or not.

As for Chinese vs Domestic, I've had five Dinottes now and one MS. In a time of such rapid technology change being built to last isn't such a perk anymore. My major complaint of the MS is they get too hot to hold if you want to use it has a walking flashlight. Overall I'd still prefer a Dinotte, the quality is visible and I don't upgrade yearly anyways.


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## rlb81 (Aug 18, 2008)

stumblemumble said:


> In a time of such rapid technology change being built to last isn't such a perk anymore....I don't upgrade yearly anyways.


You just shot down your own point  "Built to last" isn't a perk if you're the kind of person that wants to always have the newest. But if you only have the budget to buy it once then might as well get the best you can for the money. I'd say we're both in the latter.

Anyway, I was hoping my Dinottes would have arrived today but no luck! Maybe tomorrow!


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

rlb81 said:


> You just shot down your own point  "Built to last" isn't a perk if you're the kind of person that wants to always have the newest. But if you only have the budget to buy it once then might as well get the best you can for the money. I'd say we're both in the latter.
> 
> Anyway, I was hoping my Dinottes would have arrived today but no luck! Maybe tomorrow!


Just what I meant. I was raised under the ideal to buy quality and buy once. Tools being the obvious application, I suppose it drives my light purchases as well. Whether it's cost effective I don't know. I think was a solid three years before I upgraded from my previous Dinottes (to an XML3 and 400L+).
The old 808 MS I have is great as a commuter light though, don't have to worry a bunch about it getting stolen.


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## lights (Feb 18, 2012)

> People say that their high $$ lights perform better than the cheap lights but I'm not sure if that's truth or people just trying to re-justify the money they spent.


I don't believe high price means high quality, otherwise every vendor will sell at high price and deem high quality.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

stumblemumble said:


> ... In a time of such rapid technology change being built to last isn't such a perk anymore. ...


I would tend to disagree. This may have been true in the past, but we've easily reached the point of diminishing returns with the state of the technology or perhaps the "sweet spot" is a better description.

We don't need to go "brighter" anymore and there's not much room and/or need to go smaller either. So if you find a light that satisfies your needs with respect to brightness, beampattern, functionality, ergonomics, weight, style, etc. You'll probably want to treat it like your favorite pair of running shoes. The longer it can last, the better.

We've seen the next "frontier" of bike lighting this year with the Philips light, which is where I think the next push for development needs to occur. JMHO


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

pethelman said:


> I would tend to disagree. This may have been true in the past, but we've easily reached the point of diminishing returns with the state of the technology or perhaps the "sweet spot" is a better description.
> 
> We don't need to go "brighter" anymore and there's not much room and/or need to go smaller either. So if you find a light that satisfies your needs with respect to brightness, beampattern, functionality, ergonomics, weight, style, etc. You'll probably want to treat it like your favorite pair of running shoes. The longer it can last, the better.
> 
> We've seen the next "frontier" of bike lighting this year with the Philips light, which is where I think the next push for development needs to occur. JMHO


While the latest tech goes into the LED and Lithium Ion battery tech is relatively new, the reflectors are basically the same as they were when miners used them in the 19th century.

I would love to see some intelligent reflector design as used in the Philips applied to other lights. Remember the Philips is driven by the laws in Germany where unshaped beams are forbidden, but it does lead to a shaped beam with a brightness gradient that ensures most of the light ends up where it should, on the road.


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## Action LED Lights (Nov 11, 2011)

pethelman said:


> I would tend to disagree. This may have been true in the past, but we've easily reached the point of diminishing returns with the state of the technology or perhaps the "sweet spot" is a better description.
> 
> We don't need to go "brighter" anymore and there's not much room and/or need to go smaller either. So if you find a light that satisfies your needs with respect to brightness, beampattern, functionality, ergonomics, weight, style, etc. You'll probably want to treat it like your favorite pair of running shoes. The longer it can last, the better.
> 
> We've seen the next "frontier" of bike lighting this year with the Philips light, which is where I think the next push for development needs to occur. JMHO


I agree that lights have gotten bright enough. Put 2700 lumens on the road or trail in front of your and your pupils shrink up it pin pricks and you can't see anything except were your light is shining. :eekster: The changes now will come in efficiency and price, both of the LED and the battery. When we get to 80% efficiency for the LED heat will no longer be an issue and we'll have a 4 oz internal battery that will give us 12 hours of run time. Or better than the battery may be a ultra capacitor that can recharge in 90 seconds, run for hours and last virtually forever with no drop in capacity. There's already some flashlights on the market that use these. SC flashlight

Maybe I missed something but could someone define "the Phillips light" I'm guessing you mean some sort of car headlight made by Phillips. I drove a new Toyota the other day and was amazed at the beam shaping of the headlights. That's were I was headed with the Wide Angle Lens I built for the MJ-808 and it's clones. Headlights that put no light above horizontal would be great for road riding, but on a trail you need to see that low hanging branch coming up. But then of course you can just add the helmet light.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

[ Philips light, which is where I think the next push for development needs to occur. JMHO[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more! I have a new Gemini Olympia lighthead on order which I plan on using for trail riding only. The light I'll still use for all my street/canal bank/group rides is my MS 808e w/ action wide angle lens. It's not quite as controled s the Phillips but still way better than the stock lens. As soon as I started using this lens instead of hearing "It's too bright" I now get "nice ligfht" comments from on-coming pedistrian traffic. My point is any uncontroled 500+ lumen light is blinding to on-coming traffic and a safety issue.
Another point I'd like to make is with the light manufacturers. Why not provide/sell battery/lighthead interface adapters (or come up with an industry standard) so we can use different light and battery combinations? Part of my decision to purchase the Olympia lighthead was that it would work with my geoman batteries. I'm guessing price is important to most of the people who own Magicshine, etc. lights and it would be a less costly way to introduce them to your products when they decide to upgrade.


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## pethelman (Feb 26, 2011)

MRMOLE said:


> My point is any uncontroled 500+ lumen light is blinding to on-coming traffic and a safety issue.
> Another point I'd like to make is with the light manufacturers. Why not provide/sell battery/lighthead interface adapters (or come up with an industry standard) so we can use different light and battery combinations?


To follow up your comments... I would agree on the road lumen level with a non-shaped beam. I've found that around 600 is acceptable, as long as the beam is moderately tight and well-aimed.

I took exactly that approach with my taillight design. Ready to plug and play with any of the magicshine style 7.4V li-ion packs.

"Philips Saferide" It was one of the lights in this year's review.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

pethelman said:


> We don't need to go "brighter" anymore and there's not much room and/or need to go smaller either. So if you find a light that satisfies your needs with respect to brightness, beampattern, functionality, ergonomics, weight, style, etc. You'll probably want to treat it like your favorite pair of running shoes. The longer it can last, the better.


Absolutely agree. Lights have more or less reached a level of brightness enough for relatively safe quick downhill run in the night - that's enough useful light. It'd be ridiculous to aim for brightness enough to light up a baseball field on game day, from a handlebar.

Battery runtime and weight are the next major change we should expect. We have been investigating Li-Po as an alternative to Li-ion. It's lighter, greater capacity to weight ratio but more volatile:madmax: than Li-ion. Ay Up has got it right. I don't know why others haven't gone down that path besides cost and safety.

Build me a battery which weighs 100 grams which run 10 hours for a light about 800 real lumens or about 1400 manufacturer rated lumens. IMHO say we've more or less reached the Holy Grail of bike lights. Presently we have those runtimes but only with a 17,400mAh battery which weighs 550 grams without the bottle.


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## MaximusHQ (Aug 6, 2007)

You get a lot for a little nowadays, but with so many options it can be overwhelming I think for newbies to night riding. I don't want much, maybe just a light the size of a thimble, battery included, that can pump out 3,000 lumens all night with a natural color output and good throw too.


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## Joules (Oct 12, 2005)

It seems to me that what Magicshine is eliminating to save money is an expensive battery and charger. I have one of the original MS, and a Cateye doubleshot that I picked up when they first came out. 

The Cateye has a nice theromocouple state of charge sensor on the battery, and a charger that uses it to 'know' the battery is fully charged and never overcharge it. I've had the thing for 6 years and it's still going strong (and I get a consistent run time on it of ~5.5 hours, with the MS it varies more than that). MS uses 4 commercial cells stuck in a battery holder, with a off-the-shelf charger that is either over- or not fully charging the battery. I doubt the MS batteries will last as long as the Cateyes, though I don't know for sure, because they were recalled.

So the question is, which is better: a battery that basically lasts forever (or at least much longer), and costs $100, or one that you know will need replacement every 3-4 years and costs $40?
Personally, I don't look at lights as a particularly long-term purchase anymore; kind of like a cell phone, no point in building something to last for 10 years, if it's going to be obsolete in 2-3.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Joules said:


> It seems to me that what Magicshine is eliminating to save money is an expensive battery and charger. I have one of the original MS, and a Cateye doubleshot that I picked up when they first came out.
> 
> The Cateye has a nice theromocouple state of charge sensor on the battery, and a charger that uses it to 'know' the battery is fully charged and never overcharge it. I've had the thing for 6 years and it's still going strong (and I get a consistent run time on it of ~5.5 hours, with the MS it varies more than that). MS uses 4 commercial cells stuck in a battery holder, with a off-the-shelf charger that is either over- or not fully charging the battery. I doubt the MS batteries will last as long as the Cateyes, though I don't know for sure, because they were recalled.
> 
> ...


The thing about batteries, though is that new tech is being developed at snail's pace when compared to the rest of the electronics market. Thus a battery which lasts a good few years would be appreciated. Rather than becoming obsolete it would become even more useful as LEDs reduce their power needs.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

GraXXoR said:


> The thing about batteries, though is that new tech is being developed at snail's pace when compared to the rest of the electronics market. Thus a battery which lasts a good few years would be appreciated. Rather than becoming obsolete it would become even more useful as LEDs reduce their power needs.


Very true GraXXor. It took 20 years for a mobile phone that was essentially powered by a 15kg car battery(jammed in a briefcase) to get to where we are today. If you said to me back then you can have a cell phone the size of your palm in full colour with 3 days standby time, I would have asked you to stop smoking that stuff.

Good and appropriate chargers are very important - it's one of those items which gets the least attention in a bike light. Wouldn't it be great to have smart chargers for ever light set which maximizes the charge in the batteries plus balance for optimum performance? Ideal and economic reality unfortunately don't go always hand in hand. "Turnigy standard" chargers would be ideal - we have that with some DIY light builders in Australia. I'm in the opinion a good charger can get you up to another hour of runtime without risking damage. I believe cheap chargers "play it safe".

My Cateye Li-ion batteries and chargers are still working fine although I never use them - 10 years on. It's a waste to throw them but they won't be worth $20 on eBay so I'll keep them for my museum. My old Nitelights(old 1st Gen Magicshine) batteries are still soldiering like troopers. No issues whatsoever since 2008. I'm sure many will concur.

Hey GraXXor, probably should post this in Gloworm thread but have you considered "stacking" your X2s and putting the Mickey Mouse on the helmet.:idea: This way you get an inline concentration of light from immediate to distance of the P7. Probably worth a try. This is how I put on 856 on top of another a while back. Have the bottom X2 as forward as possible to clear the brake cables etc.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Magicshine Australia said:


> Hey GraXXor, probably should post this in Gloworm thread but have you considered "stacking" your X2s and putting the Mickey Mouse on the helmet.:idea: This way you get an inline concentration of light from immediate to distance of the P7. Probably worth a try. This is how I put on 856 on top of another a while back. Have the bottom X2 as forward as possible to clear the brake cables etc.


Yep, probably better over there, but I'm sure the same people are reading both threads.

Interesting setup, but TBH, might as well have them side by side because the 10cm horizontal and vertical gap between the two is almost inconsequential when compared with the width of the beams. Sure does look cooler than having the two horizontally orientated lights at different attitudes.

I would try the mickey on my helmet, but it's rather big, heavy and I'd look a total pillock, to boot.

rep for the nice setup and advice, tho!.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

GraXXoR said:


> I would try the mickey on my helmet, but it's rather big, heavy and I'd look a total pillock, to boot.
> 
> .


Looks quite cool actually. Try direct mount to lower the profile. Like this. Tell me she looks like a pillock and I will relay it to her....


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## trhoppe (Sep 3, 2008)

I buy MS lights because I see lights as disposable products. I'll use it for a year, by then the battery will not last as long, the light will have taken a few tumbles, dropkicked a few times, and I'll be ready for shiny, new, more powerful, longer lasting rather than upset that my $1000 investment is obsolete. 

I'll then dump it for $25 and get new and shinier for $100. 

-Toim


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

*Nice*



Magicshine Australia said:


> Looks quite cool actually. Try direct mount to lower the profile. Like this. Tell me she looks like a pillock and I will relay it to her....


Erm... Just to point out, I said *I'd* look like a pillock 

Nice mount-job. Looks a bit "much" is all. I'd prefer something a little lower profile.

Out of interest, what mode does she use while it's on her noggin?
But you have got me curious now: I've got four 4-cell MS batteries lying around. 
I might run one from a backpack on an extension cable.

Just hope nobody sees me... oh wait...


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

You gave me an idea. I took the mount off the bottom of my 816, stuck a spongy rubber adhesive pad to the top of the helmet and mounted the light upside down using a long, thick elastic band. 
The 816's cable is just long enough to reach into my pocket, perfect length.
I'm going to try it out on the riverbank tomorrow night.
With my dual X2 gloworms on the bar, the whole thing should be quite bright.
A little concerned about rain getting into the bottom of the 816. So I will seal the holes with a little bit of putty.

Photos to come...


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

GraXXoR said:


> Out of interest, what mode does she use while it's on her noggin?
> 
> Just hope nobody sees me... oh wait...


The 816 used to be our standard helmet mount light till the 880 came along. We run them in all modes - all on high mainly. The best feature is when resting. Mode through to Mickey's ears only then dim it down to the lowest.

The remote is what I miss in the 880. Having it by the side makes it easy to cycle through modes and vary the brightness. Yes, the cable is long enough without an extension cable.

As for being seen, it's used in the night isn't it? Who's able to see shapes of any light unit when it's on.

Turning it upside down is no problem. You just need a drop of silicone on the holes. Maybe even tap another thread on the "top" which is now going to be the underside and have the mount there.

What has this discussion have to do with "The current lighting market: what are we getting for the $$". Getting extended value from something you thought had no further value by innovating and reusing.:thumbsup:


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## rlb81 (Aug 18, 2008)

Magicshine Australia said:


> Looks quite cool actually. Try direct mount to lower the profile. Like this. Tell me she looks like a pillock and I will relay it to her....


Which model is that helmet? I can't seem to find it on the Met website.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

rlb81 said:


> Which model is that helmet? I can't seem to find it on the Met website.


It's an old MET Ippogriffo - it's an obsolete model. Had that for more than 12 years, I think. I've been searching for a new one just like that but with no luck. I am currently waiting for the new MET Veleno Matt Black from the UK.

MET and some other helmets have that center crossover so you can mount lights directly using o-rings. Besides this, I love their design and vents that really cool - you'll feel the difference compared to other brands and designs. Threw away the Limar Carbon- good riddance. :crazy:

Another view with Mickey on top


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

I won't be needing a new reversed mount. I just need a stronger rubber band.

Screen shots as promised.



↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑　　Click on the icon to see my flickr set...

See, I told you I'd look a pillock. I've turned all red out of embarrassment.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

GraXXoR said:


> I won't be needing a new reversed mount. I just need a stronger rubber band.
> 
> Screen shots as promised.
> 
> ...


It's not too bad - my eyes have problem with Mickey on his head! Look, it if makes you feel better, look at it as "prototype". It's raw, it's work-in-progress and it's working!

Post your beamshots back in the Gloworm thread, I think. I am sure the embarassment will pass once the 816 on the helmet gives you extended distance you've been missing out on for the past few weeks - especially since it's elevated now.

Will wait for the beamshots. Ride safe and don't fall in the river.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Had my first ride with a helmet lamp tonight. I can really see the attraction. It's great being able to point it, obviously...

What I like about the 816 is its narrow focus spot, with a single P7 it out throws the dual XML of the X2, but of course over a MUCH narrower field. I like the mix, though, since the X2 is an awesome flood! And with even a half decent P7/XML on the lid it's a feckin' wicked floodlight.


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## QuantumQrack (Jul 20, 2011)

Just received an MJ-816E and I have to say, I really like it. It does get rather hot though, I was kind of surprised by this since they contain LEDs. 

To me, the most lumens for the dollar is what is most important with a quality battery coming in a close second. Time will tell how long the battery pack lasts, I dont expect it to last long.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

QuantumQrack said:


> To me, the most lumens for the dollar is what is most important with a quality battery coming in a close second. Time will tell how long the battery pack lasts, I dont expect it to last long.


The 816E is supplied with the MJ-6030 - unless it was switched by the seller. The battery has 4 x Samsung 18650 cells inside instead of the standard BAK batteries.

Please give this forum a periodic report on the batteries. I am totally confident they will last years if it's not physically damaged, overcharged or left to overdischarge.


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

QuantumQrack said:


> Just received an MJ-816E and I have to say, I really like it. It does get rather hot though, I was kind of surprised by this since they contain LEDs.
> 
> To me, the most lumens for the dollar is what is most important with a quality battery coming in a close second. Time will tell how long the battery pack lasts, I dont expect it to last long.





Magicshine Australia said:


> The 816E is supplied with the MJ-6030 - unless it was switched by the seller. The battery has 4 x Samsung 18650 cells inside instead of the standard BAK batteries.
> 
> Please give this forum a periodic report on the batteries. I am totally confident they will last years if it's not physically damaged, overcharged or left to overdischarge.


I have four Magicshine 4400 BAK batteries which came with various bits and bobs I bought last summer. One in a hard shell, the other three in quite well made little rubberized pouches.

My rides rarely last more than three hours and the lights are so bright that I never use full power for more than about 10 mins at a time.

As such I've never used them down to even flashing red, let alone cut off. I also charge them every day but never let them charge overnight so I think they are in good condition. The ones I'm not using, I leave at about 75-50% charge.

In the 6 months or so of using them, I've not noticed any drop in capacity, except once when I was cycling at -2℃, the indicator went red rather quickly.

They have no balancing, so in time they WILL get unbalanced. I estimate I've used two of the most used packs well over 50 times each so it's about time to give them a balance.

I have ordered a $30 balance charger from DX with reasonable reviews, which should come before summer (!!) so I can balance my packs once a month, or so. But seriously, at $25 it's hard to recommend a $100 pack with similar capacity which may or may not last 4 times as long.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

rlb81 said:


> I wanted to clear up my intent/stance on this thread.* I'm merely asking are we saving money buying cheap lights or wasting money buying expensive lights?*
> 
> I don't think either of these are true. *I'm not really into the disposability of the cheap lights, *not do I want a super high end $500+ lamp. I think the mid level domestic lights are the best overall value. I wanted to see if I was alone on this or not.


_*Getting back to what this thread was supposedly about*_ (  ), I think your question is very hard to answer because for one; The quality of LED bike lights is very subjective and as such is very much a matter of one's own opinion based on one's own personal standard. Not to mention that the light builds themselves are always changing which means people have to constantly reevaluate what is being sold.

Back in the day we were happy with the first generation halogens. Most of us didn't even think too much about the quality of the product we were just happy to be able to ride trails at night. When I look at the quality of the old halogens, I don't think the first generation MagicShine lights were too far off the track as far as "comparable" quality goes. As such they were nothing to brag about. Still, hundreds of thousands of the original MS's sold world wide which is more than you can say for the old style halogens. With sales that high there were bound to be issues. Smart companies know how to fix things when they see ( or hear about ) something wrong.

Over the years the so called "Chinese cloned" companies have upped their effort to sell bike lights. Some of these offerings are looking pretty darn good as competition has upped the ante. Not only are the lamp designs themselves looking better but more sophisticated electronics are being used. Issues that were overlooked before like; battery durability, water-resistance, service guarantees with local vendors...all this stuff is being addressed. With all this going on the question concerning "quality" is still a hard cookie to crack.

Now what you said about not wanting a "Disposable light" : Once again, that is a matter of opinion on what one is calling "disposable". Back in day when I bought halogen lights I didn't know the batteries would only last about a year and half. The bulbs themselves only lasted two years tops. Although I was bothered about the batteries I never considered the light as disposable because for one, there was really nothing better. Now if someone gave me the choice of , "Which would you rather have and ride with the next four years, your old halogens or an original MagicShine 808 "?....I would take the 808 in a heartbeat. :yesnod:

Anyway, just my thoughts. I hope you like your DiNotte's. Good company with a proven track record that also makes some great products.


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## Magicshine Australia (Jan 22, 2012)

Magicshine Australia said:


> Post your beamshots back in the Gloworm thread, I think.


Was waiting for the Cat to pounce.....



Cat-man-do said:


> _*Getting back to what this thread was supposedly about*_ (  ),


And, he has!

BTW Good reply to rlb81. I spend over $800 for 2 sets of Cateye Halogens with 4 stick batteries. Like I said, not worth $20 today.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Magicshine Australia said:


> Was waiting for the Cat to pounce.....
> 
> And, he has!
> 
> BTW Good reply to rlb81. I spend over $800 for 2 sets of Cateye Halogens with 4 stick batteries. Like I said, not worth $20 today.


This thread offered some great insights. Unfortunately I was laid up with flu the last 5 days so I was pretty much out of it. Anyway since the OP'er didn't seem to mind all the off topic chatter I didn't think it necessary to make too much of a fuss. Anyway, back to work tomorrow.

( **Side note: You know you're out of it when it's too much to even sit up and punch keys on the computer.  )


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

Just to squeeze some value out of the OT posts  I think it's interesting that once can recycle a light and use it for something it wasn't originally intended.

I really only bought this cheap(ish) light as just as a first foray into serious lighting. I never expected nor intended it to last very long.

As is my poison, I start a new hobby and before I know it, I'm spending far more than I should on top quality gear.

I paid $124 for my MJ-816 this summer... I could have gone for the 808 (E wasn't out until the week after I bought it. (GRRRR)). But I wanted to try flood and spot in one unit.

By the end of the year, I really wanted to try some upmarket units and once they (Gloworm X2s) came, I expected to put the old MJ-816 out to pasture.

As it happens, it has outlived its original purpose and now performs a sterling job on my helmet, mount removed and placed upside down!

The fact is that even this cheap unit with cheap battery is performing alongside two much more "capable" lights without being in the slightest bit embarrassed or overawed.

Also, the unit is still in great condition dispite a 30kph OTB incident last autumn.

In closing, then. As a person who has happily spent US$8000 on some seriously good hifi gear about 10 years ago (and is still enjoying it every day) I find this Magicshine MJ-816 at $125 with battery and charger included to be a top - and more importantly - reliable performer!

In this case, Magicshine deserves to be recognized as one of the primary forces which has brought LCD (Lowest Common Denominator) serious lighting to the masses at really affordable prices...

I hope that this case in some way goes towards answering the OP's OQ without being too OT.... If that's OK with you


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## rlb81 (Aug 18, 2008)

A little OT is fine by me, I'm not a stickler :thumbsup:

Thanks for the input everyone has given. I've gone for a few rides with my dinottes and I'm satisfied with what I've purchased. I guess that's all that truly matters in the end. Are you happy with the product you received for the money you've spent?


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## GraXXoR (Sep 29, 2011)

rlb81 said:


> A little OT is fine by me, I'm not a stickler :thumbsup:
> 
> Thanks for the input everyone has given. I've gone for a few rides with my dinottes and I'm satisfied with what I've purchased. I guess that's all that truly matters in the end. Are you happy with the product you received for the money you've spent?


I think you've hit the nail on the head. In the end, it all comes down to satisfaction. If you're satisfied with the amount of money paid compared with the performance you've received from the product, then I think there's nothing to complain about. As I mentioned, in my case with the MagicShine MJ 816. I am really pleased with the performance considering that the light head was less than $100.
And as for the gloworm X2 the fact that they were $125 nz$ each was a smashing price to pay for such a powerful little light monster.


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## aaronjole (Feb 21, 2012)

*I didn't mean to*

If my previous message sounds that way, I didn't mean to. I just got very excited with my new LED. It is purely co-incidental. I truly appreciate it.

Thanks guys for a little bump.


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

aaronjole said:


> I love biking at night. However, I have problems with my current bike lights. I have one option, and that is using LED Bike Lights. These are worth a try (I must add). I saw *Navigator 1100* in *Eclipse LED Company* [eclipseledcompany(dot)com] and, I must say, the LEDs worked perfectly.
> 
> LEDs are very eco-friendly and at the same time, cost-effective and very useful.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Interesting that Eclipse LED Company and aaronjole appear to be from the same California town and has posted a pretty blatant plug for their product. Just sayin.....


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

Vancbiker said:


> Interesting that Eclipse LED Company and aaronjole appear to be from the same California town and has posted a pretty blatant plug for their product. Just sayin.....


shady, and shameless....


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## scar (Jun 2, 2005)

Here is a little story about 'counterfeit" parts pertaining to LED"s - A Reel Crime

I saw one other poster in this forum posting wondering why every Chinese light he buys has a different tint to them. I wonder why? Everything I buy from Cutter Electronics have the same tint.

The medical device manufacturing company I work for has really had to protect ourselves from purchasing counterfeit LED's as they are flooding the markets with them just as they are flooding the bike light market with cheap lights.










***


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

I'm lovin the reflow solder job in the lower right pic!


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

well, all those electronic appliances we buy so cheaply have to go somewhere when we throw them away. It would be ironic to think that the "disposable" MS lights we buy from China for next to nothing get sent back there when they break to be made into more disposable lights. 

Electronics recycling is one those many moral slight of hands that we use. We think we're being responsible citizens by recycling the computers/ TVs/ phones etc that we regularly replace (instead of sending them to landfill), whereas the reality is that they end up on huge piles in China, India and other parts of the developing world to be pick over by children and reprocessed at significant cost to their health.

But no one wants to think about that when they buy their next shiny phone/ PC/ flatscreen TV..


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Hard to believe that someone can eek out a living pulling old circuit boards apart. 
As to counterfeit LEDs; Yeah I suppose it happens. Everything gets copied. The good part is that LED's have been around a while so it shouldn't be that much of a problem. 

Just keep in mind the Chinese vendors that sell this stuff have to deal with the problems that arise from cheap component sales. If word gets out that their stuff stinks they lose money. Even in China there is competition. Good stuff brings return customers, bad stuff doesn't. ...Universal truth. 

Abe Lincoln perhaps said it best, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time".


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## Action LED Lights (Nov 11, 2011)

Cat-man-do said:


> Hard to believe that someone can eek out a living pulling old circuit boards apart.
> As to counterfeit LEDs; Yeah I suppose it happens. Everything gets copied. The good part is that LED's have been around a while so it shouldn't be that much of a problem.
> 
> Just keep in mind the Chinese vendors that sell this stuff have to deal with the problems that arise from cheap component sales. If word gets out that their stuff stinks they lose money. Even in China there is competition. Good stuff brings return customers, bad stuff doesn't. ...Universal truth.
> ...


A high performance LED is not something that is easily copied. CREE, SSC, Phillips, and a few others sink millions of dollars every year into constantly improving the output and efficiency of there LEDs. It's a bit like the computer processor business and with incandescent light bulbs being band, it's big business. China does have "domestic" LED's but there no where close to the big 3.

As far as cheap Chinese vendors go. If you haven't looked on E-bay lately, the $50 knock-offs don't even have a brand name. There selling just on low price. If a seller gets the reputation of selling junk, they just change there name, change the look of the light slightly and keep right on going. Come on, someone who claims 1800 lumens out of a CREE XM-L is not trying to build a reputation.

I think it's better to quote P.T. Barnum - "There's a sucker born every minute"

No offense Cat-man-do, but I get a little emotional about this.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

Action LED Lights said:


> A high performance LED is not something that is easily copied. CREE, SSC, Phillips, and a few others sink millions of dollars every year into constantly improving the output and efficiency of there LEDs. It's a bit like the computer processor business and with incandescent light bulbs being band, it's big business. China does have "domestic" LED's but there no where close to the big 3.
> 
> As far as cheap Chinese vendors go. If you haven't looked on E-bay lately, the $50 knock-offs don't even have a brand name. There selling just on low price. If a seller gets the reputation of selling junk, they just change there name, change the look of the light slightly and keep right on going. Come on, someone who claims 1800 lumens out of a CREE XM-L is not trying to build a reputation.
> 
> ...


No offense taken. 
No one likes the extravagant lumen claims and what you see on e-smay is worse case scenario. Nothing wrong with buying generic $50 light sets as long as you know what you're buying. If you buy one and it works you got your monies worth. 
I never buy anything on e-bay. That doesn't mean I don't take chances once in a while.
I see lot's of people selling cheap lights on e-bay. I figure most of the stuff must work or people wouldn't buy it. Not my problem though. What people do with their money is their business not mine. There are bad choices, good choices and mediocre choices. Different strokes for different folks.


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## znomit (Dec 27, 2007)

Action LED Lights said:


> A high performance LED is not something that is easily copied.


Every "T6" XML on Ebay/DX is very likely a cheap copy. 
Pretty easy to substitute a much lower bin.

Do you have any way of telling what bin is in the lights you sell?


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

znomit said:


> Every "T6" XML on Ebay/DX is very likely a cheap copy.
> Pretty easy to substitute a much lower bin.
> 
> Do you have any way of telling what bin is in the lights you sell?


Maybe yes, maybe no but since Cree has a factory in China no need to counterfeit if you already have the real thing.

Sadly it does lead one to wonder what is done with the die's that don't make the normal binning grades.


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

*Global Mfg & engineering*

Sorry for the political & economic soap box that follows.

I'm all for lowering the costs of goods. However it has gone so far as to lower our standard of living. Recall news informing everyone to cut and scale back? Working at a fortune 50 (yes 50) company our engineers responsible for aerospace and defense no longer have viable health insurance. We are now competing for our jobs building weapons systems with other ITAR restricted countries. Yes I have told customers that we no longer make a simple part as procurement goes thru India. When building navigation equipment for the USAF and commercial sectors I have witnessed the lid falling off of ICs for deliverable components. The entire lot turned out to be counterfeit. Thankfully This was identified before it made it into an aircraft. We have had to avionics back parts because it was later identified they had counterfeit parts. Business decision makers are only interested in meeting the letter of the contract regardless if it meets the intent of the contract. Engineers and program managers are helpless as they tow the line or try to resolve issues seeing their career being held back years or put to rest before their time.

Next time you fly consider what avionics are in that 747 or military jet on the runway protecting our country. Good thing we have redundancy in systems, but still for life critical applications how many times do we want to roll the dice.

Our cycling lights are no different. Technology is moving forward at and the CREE emitters keep improving, but what about the battery? With the tsunami in Japan this past year the Lithium battery market took a hit. Japan is rebuilding but will take time to get those plants up and running. Korea have been cranking out as many batteries as possible but without being able to meet global demand China picked up the remainder. During battery testing for the UN it was discovered that Japanese and Korean cells are about the same in terms of performance and reliability. Chinese made cells to the same specifications meet the lower end of the performance tolerance with wild predictions in reliability. This year alone locally two of my friends picked up some night rider lights with serious battery failures straight out of the box.

Today for the $$ I would say we are getting better performance out of the lights in general, but concerned about the reliability and build quality of what is available.

Sorry for the rant or views expressed above. Yes engineers were harmed in the making of this film. Along with quite a few other industries.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> Hard to believe that someone can eek out a living pulling old circuit boards apart.


have you ever been to a developing country and met people that live on less than $1 a day? They're not doing it from choice, they're going it because they have to.

I prefer the adage - you get what you pay for. The manufacturers of expensive systems aren't running some kind of scam, just as the manufacturers of cheap systems aren't using magical pixie dust to make their products for peanuts.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

mattthemuppet said:


> have you ever been to a developing country and met people that live on less than $1 a day? They're not doing it from choice, they're going it because they have to.
> 
> I prefer the adage - you get what you pay for. The manufacturers of expensive systems aren't running some kind of scam, just as the manufacturers of cheap systems aren't using magical pixie dust to make their products for peanuts.


No but I don't live in a vacuum. I also know that if the Western countries don't import goods from disadvantaged countries that those people won't even get what they're getting now. It's kind of a , "Damned if you do, damned if you don't situation". In the mean time I won't lose sleep over buying that Chinese bike light because likely 80% of every item in my home is already made somewhere other than the country where I live.

Poverty is one of those ugly realities of life. Like all sad things in life it bothers me. Like most people I've learned to disassociate myself from the sadder issues of life. I've found that if you don't it would be very easy to lose your sanity. In the mean time I help those who I can and hope like hell that one of those sad realities don't start knocking on my own back door.


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