# Wanting discs sure makes buying a commuter difficult...



## CoastieTX (Oct 12, 2007)

There seems to be virtually no easy way to buy a nicer disc-equipped cyclocrossish commuter in the ~$1500 range that comes with decent components, like a Shimano 105 drivetrain.

There's a few flat-bar lower specced options, and then, at the other extreme, it seems you have to go with something like a Gunnar Fast Lane and custom build, which seems a little too ambitiou$ for a commuter. What a shame Salsa discontinued its La Cruz disc...but that's a whole 'nother topic.

Ideally, I'd like something like this Cannondale CAAD8 below, but with discs, not cantis.

So, I'm wondering if you guys can help me make up my mind here. Do you find the canti-equipped cyclocrossers perfectly fine for wet-weather commuting (I'm in the Pacific Northwest, btw), or would it be worth it to almost double this project's cost and hassles and go with the Gunnar?


----------



## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

You can get find redline conquests with 105 and disc brakes for under 1500. Here's a completed listing for one that went for $500 on the bay. http://cgi.ebay.com/2005-Redline-Co...dZViewItemQQptZRoad_Bikes?hash=item27af66c4c1

There's also a salsa that ends soon that should be much less than 1500:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Salsa-Las-Cruce...dZViewItemQQptZRoad_Bikes?hash=item414d6fe3fa


----------



## Normbilt (Jan 17, 2004)

Not looking hard enough

https://salsacycles.com/bikes/vaya/



https://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/fast-lane/



https://www.somafab.com/dcdc.html


----------



## Thor29 (May 12, 2005)

Yeah, the new Salsa Vaya is pretty much the same thing as the La Cruz but would make an even better commuter. I have a La Cruz and have had a Surly Cross Check and Surly Long Haul Trucker, and I would not go back to rim brakes, especially cantilevers.

Kona also makes some disc brake/drop bar models. REI now has a drop bar version of the Novara Buzz, but it is Tiagra and you specified 105. (I bet the Tiagra stuff works fine though).


----------



## Pyroja (Jul 14, 2008)

Dunno if this completely fits your needs, but it has disc brakes and you can throw a rack on it, and is certainly less than $1500: https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/outlaw.htm


----------



## CoastieTX (Oct 12, 2007)

Well, the Vaya complete is specced with Tiagra and BB5s, which illustrates my point - it seems absurdly difficult to just go to the LBS and come home with a well-specced cyclocross with discs. It's either low-end stuff, or something like that sweet Gunnar which is going to run a couple grand by the time you're done with a full custom build.

You'd think there would be a lot of demand for this type of bike by the masses, but I guess I underestimate the importance of having the bike cyclocross-race legal, which I doubt most of us care about.

So, that leaves me with this question: Do you think the cantilevers which I'm forced to use, like those on that Cannondale or a Jake the Snake, will be adequate for wet weather commuting? That's the only thing holding me back from buying such a bike - cantilevers.


----------



## CoastieTX (Oct 12, 2007)

Pyroja said:


> Dunno if this completely fits your needs, but it has disc brakes and you can throw a rack on it, and is certainly less than $1500:


A good suggestion, and a money saver for sure, but again, another Tiagra and BB5 specced bike.

Are you listening, manufacturers? I think there's a large potential market here - people who want a fast, nicely specced disc cyclocross for commuting and regular use. Who cares if it isn't race legal?


----------



## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

The only thing your underestimating is the components. First of all, the differences between Tiagra and 105 are very minor, and Tiagra shifters are well regarded for their performance and longevity, which is why you see them on so many bikes. 

Second, the fact that you're surprised you can't buy a really nice, race ready bike for $1500 tells me you have little concept of bicycle values. People who race bikes will throw down more than $1500 on a wheelset alone.

Third, properly adjusted canti's are extremely powerful and will do very well in wet and dry conditions. 

Forth, nobody is forcing you to do anything. In fact, we have all given you multiple options for cyclocross bikes with 105 and disc brakes, which you seem to be ignoring. So either take the advice or stop asking!


----------



## Pyroja (Jul 14, 2008)

CoastieTX said:


> A good suggestion, and a money saver for sure, but again, another Tiagra and BB5 specced bike.
> 
> Are you listening, manufacturers? I think there's a large potential market here - people who want a fast, nicely specced disc cyclocross for commuting and regular use. Who cares if it isn't race legal?


I'm not too knowledgeable on the upgrade process (I'm still a bike newb, essentially), but with that bike being $900, could you swap out the components you don't like and still come under $1500? It seems cost inefficient, for sure, and I'm with you on wanting a CX-type bike with discs for the pavement. It'd be nice if the manufacturers had more options in that arena.


----------



## CoastieTX (Oct 12, 2007)

Sizzler said:


> The only thing your underestimating is the components. First of all, the differences between Tiagra and 105 are very minor, and Tiagra shifters are well regarded for their performance and longevity, which is why you see them on so many bikes.
> 
> Second, the fact that you're surprised you can't buy a really nice, race ready bike for $1500 tells me you have little concept of bicycle values. People who race bikes will throw down more than $1500 on a wheelset alone.
> 
> ...


You obviously haven't read a word anyone's written. Nobody has provided an example of a disc cyclocross equipped with at least 105 components. Take a closer look.

And I'm not complaining a $1500 bike isn't race worthy. Again, read.


----------



## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

I did you doofus. In fact I gave you two examples myself!


----------



## CoastieTX (Oct 12, 2007)

Sizzler said:


> I did you doofus. In fact I gave you two examples myself!


Your "two examples" precisely prove my point. Why do I have to resort to used Ebay bikes (not in my size, btw) to find what I, and probably many others, are looking for?

Can you see what I'm getting at now?


----------



## electrik (Oct 22, 2009)

Cyclocross ish...


----------



## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

CoastieTX said:


> Your "two examples" precisely prove my point. Why do I have to resort to used Ebay bikes (not in my size, btw) to find what I, and probably many others, are looking for?
> 
> Can you see what I'm getting at now?


No. All I see is person who is apparently unable or unwilling to locate and identify a nice bike. If not being able to find a cross bike for $1500 is the worst thing that ever happens to you, consider yourself lucky !


----------



## hydrogeek (Feb 20, 2006)

Coastie,

I just went through the same process and I too live in the PNW. The canti brakes will stop you just fine in the wet weather. The problem is that you will go through pads and rims fairly quickly for commuting. I burn through pads about every two months and rims once a year due to hauling commuting gear (clothes, lunch, tools, cell phone, etc.)

I look at the Trek Portland, and the Kona Honky Tonk, Inc. I liked both bikes but they each have their short comings. The Kona was sweet but with road frame seat and chain spacing the tire options are limited. I do really like the Honky Tonks and plan on buying the non-disc version as a road bike later.

I finally decided to build my own bike around a $100 Nashbar cyclocross disc frame. The beauty is that I get to decide on the components that I want. 

BTW, I don't really care for the Avid BB5's. The pads are smaller and less adjustable than the BB7's.


----------



## Normbilt (Jan 17, 2004)

I work in a bike shop. In the past 4 years I have seen 10sp 105 shifters fail. Have not yet seen a Tiagra fail. I live in the Midwest 40 miles Northwest of Chicago. No Mountains but way worse Winters. Since it's flat here in the winter I ride a Fixed San Jose with V-Brakes. I've had my San Jose since 2005, I only ride it in the winter, It has 6100 miles on it now.

Today it was 40 degrees and raining and I rode my Soma Double Cross. Oh, and We still have Snow on the Ground.




In My opinion there is no Perfect Complete Bikes Out there.

Thats why if I do buy a Complete bike, the first thing I do it Build my own Wheels and sell the Original wheels. 
You want the Perfect Bike...Build one.

It says your bike is a Hybrid, have you riden a Cyclocross Bike?


----------



## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

if v's can haul down my 200+, my bike, and 70 pounds of trailer/kid in 8" of snow then yeah, you're worrying about nothing. 
*shrug* just saying....

BUT if you insist... novaras are cheap, m-becanes are cheap, and there's kona dews and units aplenty out there.
Pretty sure the wife's scandium/xtr/bar-cons/bb disc bike cost me less than a grand all told.
So really, if cost is at ALL a factor, then yes, looking outside of the LBS IS the way to go (like Sizzler indicated).
Personally, I see neither a need, nor a market, for 105/disc'd cyclocross bikes at 1500$.
Not when I can build twice the bike for 2/3 that cost.
And like you said, cyclo bikes aren't allowed discs ergo the market niche for them isn't there at all really. Closest thing I could've suggested was the old Giant OCR-Touring.


----------



## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Build your own! I have the Nashbar 'X' frame like Hydrogeek, with the Nashbar carbon 'cross forks.

Mine's not spec'ed with Shimano 105, but as-is in this picture it's under $1000... you could do it with 105 stuff for well under 1500.


----------



## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

Another thought is to use a mountain bike frame and 29er wheelset with say 32/38c tires.

I'm about to try just that on a Carver bikes 96er frame. I've found that it fits a 29er wheel with 38cs with some room left over for mud/snow/crud. EBB so I can have some bottom bracket and "effective" st adjustments with it. Rigid mtb fork up front and I think it'll be doable.

Stay tuned for more.

This opens up more wheel/hub options as there aren't a ton of 135mm disc compatible rear hubs out there are there?


----------



## Thor29 (May 12, 2005)

Please explain why 105 is so much better than Tiagra. Sometimes I think a lot of Shimano's varying component levels is just marketing hype. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Tiagra is better than 105 because it is 9-speed. I found that 10-speed Ultegra (I haven't used 105) is way too sensitive to slight changes in cable tension and it was hard to keep perfectly adjusted. I run 9 speed Tiagra shifters on my La Cruz so that I can run an 11-32 XT cassette with XT derailleur for lower gearing (for offroad and super steep San Francisco hills).

I disagree with those who say that cantilevers work fine. They are a pain to adjust and it is really hard to get them to stop as well as discs (or even V-brakes). Maybe the more expensive cantilevers work better, but based on my experience I would go to great lengths to avoid ever buying a bike with cantilevers again.


----------



## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

MMcG said:


> This opens up more wheel/hub options as there aren't a ton of 135mm disc compatible rear hubs out there are there?


I think you mean "there aren't a ton of 130mm disc compatible rear hubs out there..."

There ARE a ton of 135mm options (mtn standard).


----------



## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*Im in the bay area*

and find that full v-brakes work in the wet and on sloppy trails. That salsa Vayas nice.


----------



## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

Tiagra = 105

Tiagra is 9 speed
105 is 10 speed

I have 105, old 9 speed ultegra and even older R series shimano stuff. All work fine. I've used Sora stuff too. Never a problem. 

IMO, Salsa Vaya FTW. I think Salsa did listen and built up a commuter with all the fixings at a decent pricepoint.


----------



## scottzg (Sep 27, 2006)

Shrug. I'd take tiagra over 105 for a commuter. 9sp and cheaper while functioning just as well.

https://www.rei.com/product/779985


----------



## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

88 rex said:


> Tiagra = 105
> 
> Tiagra is 9 speed
> 105 is 10 speed


Does that mean 9 = 10?


----------



## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Spinal Tap`s go to eleven.


----------



## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

Sizzler said:


> Does that mean 9 = 10?




Also, the OP mentions the La Cruz which had an MSRP of $18xx . So the Vaya would be more like $18xx if equipped with different drivetrain. The 9speed stuff is cheaper, extremely reliable, and easily replaced.


----------



## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I lean towards the 'less is more' for the commuter... I was shooting for as little maintenance as possible when I built mine up... currently it's 1x8...I'm looking at options for eliminating the rear derailleur while keeping a couple of gears. 10 speed sounds like lots of maintenance for the commute, but it would certainly be cool for the occasional 'real' road ride.


----------



## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

I built this up for about $1700. BB7 discs and Ultegra brifters, FD, RD and Cranks. I was able to move some components off my old bike to save a few $$. Soma Double Cross.










So not exactly $1500, but not $2500 either.


----------



## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

CommuterBoy said:


> I think you mean "there aren't a ton of 130mm disc compatible rear hubs out there..."
> 
> There ARE a ton of 135mm options (mtn standard).


Whoops - my brain was moving too fast. You are right.

130mm and disc = slim pickens

135 and Disc = the world is your oyster:thumbsup:


----------



## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

^^ That's one reason I snagged the nashbar frame...135mm rear spacing. 29er wheels with disc hubs are the way to go. 

Apparently by the time Hydrogeek bought his nashbar frame, they had switched it to 130mm.


----------



## hydrogeek (Feb 20, 2006)

Ya, the Nashbar X frame is now spaced at 130mm. I bought some hubs off ebay (Novatech) for $100 for the set. They seem like decent parts, time will tell. Novatech propaganda states that they are the high-end line of Joytech and that they make a lot of the branded hubs for bike manufacturers.

The other option was to go with Velocity hubs which will set you back nearly $200 for the set. I got a good recommendation from the LBS for Velocity. If you are a big spender then look at King or DT Swiss.


----------



## BrianMc (Jan 5, 2010)

Thought that this bike should be listed here, as it meets the criteria:

http://www.raleighusa.com/bikes/road/sojourn/

The wear it out and upgrade it approach. These were circa $900 for the 2009 last summer.

I experienced gaining speed downhill to an uphill right turn with frozen rim brakes in a snowfall. A bit too much adrenalin. I do not wish to repeat. A fixie suddenly made a lot of sense. My next commuter/errand bike will be a cross/tourer with discs.


----------



## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

MMcG said:


> 135 and Disc = the world is your oyster:thumbsup:


My Soma Double Cross has a 132.5 rear so it will take either road or mountain wheels. Now the world is your oyster!


----------



## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

woodway said:


> My Soma Double Cross has a 132.5 rear so it will take either road or mountain wheels. Now the world is your oyster!


Yeah but is it a bit of a PITA to squeeze in the 135mm rear wheel on it? If so - maybe more like a clam.


----------



## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

I don`t know first hand, but from what I`ve heard, the earliest Shimano 130 hubs had beveled locknuts to make it easier to jam them into 126mm dropouts. Going by that, I wouldn`t think it would be an issue to stretch the dropoputs from 132.5 to135 every time.


----------



## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

MMcG said:


> Yeah but is it a bit of a PITA to squeeze in the 135mm rear wheel on it? If so - maybe more like a clam.


Nope. I am running Mavic Speedcity wheels (135mm), and they pop in and out with no problem at all. Feels just like taking the wheels on/off my Mountain Bikes.


----------



## huevos (Jun 17, 2008)

I think the Trek Portland looks nice, but you could easily build up a Karate Monkey to suite your needs for less than 1500. The rear dropouts blow for changing a flat with disc brakes, but you could just go tubeless.


----------



## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

rodar y rodar said:


> Spinal Tap`s go to eleven.


"Why not just make ten larger and make ten be the top gear?"
"This shifter goes to eleven."


----------



## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Thank you, Nigel. I was wondering if I had lost everybody.


----------



## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

^^ I was totally tracking. :lol:


----------



## MMcG (Jul 7, 2003)

woodway said:


> Nope. I am running Mavic Speedcity wheels (135mm), and they pop in and out with no problem at all. Feels just like taking the wheels on/off my Mountain Bikes.


Sweet!:thumbsup:


----------



## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I wouldn't hesitate to cram a 135mm rear hub into a 130mm frame if that frame was steel...5mm is nothing when you're talking about flexing steel. Aluminum is a whole different animal...that would be asking for trouble.


----------



## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

It always bothers me a little bit when someone asks for a disc-equipped cyclocross commuter. Do you want a disc bike, a 'cross bike, or a light touring bike?

I live in Seattle and commute on an old Raleigh 12-speed with sidepulls. I'm the first to admit that the original brakes aren't so great, but the newer Tektro I stuck on the rear works fine, and my road bike with sidepulls stops and modulates fine when I'm riding it in the rain - I think good quality sidepulls, even longer-reach ones, are perfectly good for wet weather riding, especially if you get the nicer brake pads. The streets here may kill your rims faster than your brake pads, especially if you use panniers, so I wouldn't worry so much about that. Two winters haven't taken out my rims yet.

I think that a 'cross frame is a perfectly good choice for building up a commuter - CommuterBoy's makes me envious. :thumbsup: But they're called cyclocross bikes because they're designed for a specific kind of race, and by the $1500 pricepoint, I think that the market for them is beginning to shrink to people who think they might race them. While our local series won't care if you show up in a slower class with a disc bike, USA Cycling's marshals will enforce the no disc rule for faster classes, so by marketing a $1500 'cross bike with disc brakes, a manufacturer would put itself right out of a pretty big chunk of the market for $1500 'cross bikes.

My 'cross bike has a higher bottom bracket, about a half degree slacker head angle, longish wheelbase, room for 35mm tires, and uses cantilever brakes. The handling isn't as quick as my road bike's, the brakes don't perform as well (although they leave room for mud) and I wouldn't say it's any more stable but I love it on a race course. It can accept a rack and fenders, but the higher pricepoint models don't have those eyelets anymore. While I think it would be just as good for commuting as either of my other two road bikes, I certainly don't think it would be any better, and of my three road bikes, my Raleigh's the only one I feel comfortable leaving locked outside.

Something I hate about the "I want a cyclocross bike for something other than cyclocross" threads is that often, I don't think everyone's using the same definition of "cyclocross bike." Not even all the manufacturers agree - the higher BB is common, but a few actually have a lower BB. A longer wheelbase than a road bike is common, but the shortest wheelbase that will accept 35mm tires is often a design goal. What does it mean to you? Or, rather, what do you see as being better for you about a 'cross bike than the Trek Portland? Do you want to put a rack on your commuter bike? Do you want interrupter levers? How big a tire do you want to use? I assume you want fenders.  Do you have a bike now? If so, what is it, and what don't you like?

FWIW, none of my bikes is worth $1500, and I've raced three of them and felt my position was determined by how I felt that day, how well I handled my bike, and the training I'd done in the months leading up to the season. Not that I wouldn't enjoy racing $1500 or $4500 worth of bike...

EDIT: I assume you want STI shifters. If you're down with barend shifters, the Salsa Fargo is a nicely equipped drop bar 29er, which gives you your choice of anything from a 23mm road racing tire to a 2.4" MTB tire.


----------



## BrianMc (Jan 5, 2010)

AndrwSwitch said:


> It always bothers me a little bit when someone asks for a disc-equipped cyclocross commuter. Do you want a disc bike, a 'cross bike, or a light touring bike?
> 
> I live in Seattle .


Yes, I want a disk-cross-light-touring bike. Can't afford one, but that is another story.

A loaded bike on a downgrade with ice and snow on the rims and sidepulls is a bit too exciting. I love my old sidepulls, but when the Cool Stops are still not clearing the crud off after dragging them before the hill then all the way down, visions of discs start to dance before your eyes. The face is a terrible braking surface.  Most days I did not ride this winter were not because of temperature but because between no studs and no brakes it was plain crazy.


----------



## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

I live in Seattle as well.

I use a Cyclocross bike as a commuter because:

1. It can take wider tires and full fenders, and mine is lugged for a rack, unlike most traditional road bikes.
2. It's light and responsive enough that I can strip the rack and fenders off for a weekend century or fun ride with friends.

Since my primary purpose is commuting, not touring (or racing), I don't see the need to carry the extra weight of a touring bike. A cyclocross bike is perfect for my application.

My last commuter was also a Cyclocross bike (K2 Enemy) which had canti brakes (Koolstop Salmon pads). I put 6000 miles on this bike last year, and for the most part the canti brakes worked well, but there were several times when commuting in wet weather, when I needed to stop NOW and the combination of canti brakes and wet rims did not give me the stopping performance that I needed. The last time it happened, when I got hooked by a truck and had to bunny hop the curb to avoid getting squished, I decided it was time for disc brakes.

I've got about 1000 miles on my new disc brake commuter this year, and I am EXTREMELY happy with the disc brakes. The stopping performance in wet weather is head and shoulders above the canti brakes on my last bike.


----------



## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

woodway said:


> I've got about 1000 miles on my new disc brake commuter this year, and I am EXTREMELY happy with the disc brakes. The stopping performance in wet weather is head and shoulders above the canti brakes on my last bike.


What are you riding now?


----------



## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

AndrwSwitch said:


> It always bothers me a little bit when someone asks for a disc-equipped cyclocross commuter. Do you want a disc bike, a 'cross bike, or a light touring bike?
> 
> I live in Seattle and commute on an old Raleigh 12-speed with sidepulls. I'm the first to admit that the original brakes aren't so great, but the newer Tektro I stuck on the rear works fine, and my road bike with sidepulls stops and modulates fine when I'm riding it in the rain - I think good quality sidepulls, even longer-reach ones, are perfectly good for wet weather riding, especially if you get the nicer brake pads. The streets here may kill your rims faster than your brake pads, especially if you use panniers, so I wouldn't worry so much about that. Two winters haven't taken out my rims yet.
> 
> ...


Part of your problem is that you think the PNW invented cyclocross and somehow holds a patent on cyclocross. It's a bike. Don't get your panties all ruffled because someone wants to get as many uses out of their bike as they can. Let them call it what they want and how about you continue to enjoy what you want.

Your "rant" is old and boring, and you can take that crapola back to the CX forum because this is the commuter forum.......where we commute on our Cyclocross-hybrid-monster-drop barred29'er-gravel grinding-touring-tow the kids-mudslinging race bikes.


----------



## BrianMc (Jan 5, 2010)

woodway said:


> I live in Seattle as well.
> 
> Since my primary purpose is commuting, not touring (or racing), I don't see the need to carry the extra weight of a touring bike. A cyclocross bike is perfect for my application.
> 
> I've got about 1000 miles on my new disc brake commuter this year, and I am EXTREMELY happy with the disc brakes. The stopping performance in wet weather is head and shoulders above the canti brakes on my last bike.


YMMV. IMHO the concept of the disk-cross-light touring-commuter-occassional trails-whatever multipurpose bike, has an emphasis is on the 'light' (as compared to full or heavy)in the touring part.

I am on the small end of Clydesdale, so super light is not as important to me as comfort, reliability, longevity and not becoming too much of a noodle with a bit of a load. Am I right in thinking that the strength that a Cross frame has is about what this multi-use bike needs for a light payload commuting? No 70-100 pound payloads, here, maybe 15-30 max. I would swap some lightness for strength (and a cost saving?) But that's me. You and others will have different things to optimize. Multiple wheels can differ more because disks allow different tire AND wheel sizes and add more flexibility to adapt it better to a particular day's use. Skinny 700C's for a Century ride? Fat 650B's? (If the BB height is high enough.) Studded fat 26"?

I found your satisfaction with the discs on your bike in your situation very heartening. :thumbsup: So I will continue to save for one and wheels after that.


----------



## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

AndrwSwitch said:


> What are you riding now?


Soma Double Cross DC. I posted a picture of it earlier in the thread. Very happy with this bike.


----------



## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

88 rex said:


> Let them call it what they want and how about you continue to enjoy what you want.
> 
> Your "rant" is old and boring, and you can take that crapola back to the CX forum because this is the commuter forum.......where we commute on our Cyclocross-hybrid-monster-drop barred29'er-gravel grinding-touring-tow the kids-mudslinging race bikes.


I think that Europeans invented cyclocross, but it doesn't really matter.

I think people should commute on whatever bike they want to. I'd go to work on my fancy bike if I had somewhere to keep it, and have gone on all the bikes I own at one time or another.

My problem is that I think "cyclocross bike" is a really vague term, describing anything from the converted light tourers people were racing when I first tried it several years ago to a 1300 gram aluminum or carbon frame without even the water bottle eyelets. One of the things I love about bikes is their versatility, and I think that the strict racing machines that have overtaken much of the road bike scene, especially by the $1500 pricepoint, do a real injustice to that. Since 'cross is chic right now, I think the word as a usable way of describing a bike has become even less useful, at least outside of the racing circles where the definition is more-or-less unchanged. Even within the group of dedicated racing models, there are bikes with both higher-than and lower-than standard bottom bracket heights and a wide variety of head tube lengths and angles.

So what I'm really trying to ellicit from the OP, or anyone else I treat to my "rant," is what they want the bike to do. I think the only consistent things about 'cross bikes, as opposed to other kinds of road bikes, are that they typically have cantilever brakes and clearance for fat tires; the OP has already said he's looking for a different kind of brake. By the pricepoints that start to be populated by racing bikes, which I'd say happens around $1100-$1500, a lot of offerings labeled as cyclocross are starting to give up some versatility in exchange for being marginally better on a race course. Meanwhile, there are some bikes not labeled as cyclocross that I think might fulfill what it sounds to me like the OP wants from his commuter - like the Fargo, the Vaya and the older Salsa road disc bike, the Portland, or something built from the frame up, like Commuterboy's rig.

I'm not going to say I don't care what you ride - I'm always curious about how other people solve the same problems I try to address with my bike - but I have no objection to someone commuting to work on anything from a $100 Gravity to Trek's highest-spec Madone. Anyway, this is the other thing I hate about the "I want a cyclocross bike, but I don't want it to be a cyclocross bike as defined by the UCI and raced for many years" discussion - I'm not attacking you or your choice of bike (what are you riding, anyway?) I'm just trying to move away from a word that I think isn't that meaningful, and get at the desired function (which may come from a purpose-built 'cross frame, or a frame that mainly follows 'cross but has disc tabs, or might turn out to be something else.)


----------



## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

^^ I think I (and most people who aren't in the 'cross race scene) throw the word 'cyclocross' around as a synonym for "beefy road bike"...I wanted a beefy road bike with discs for my commute, so I bought a cyclocross frame and fork with disc tabs (which there aren't too many of, because of the race regulations you've mentioned). But there isn't a subsection of bikes called "beefy road bike"...they're called "cyclocross," so that's the word I use. I'd call them "Henry" if that meant "beefed up bike with road geometry".


----------



## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

Analysis paralysis. Quit rambling in circles about definitions, prices, "what should be", "what could be," etc.....

Just pedal your stinkin' bike and quit trying to deal with the semantics of the bike industry. 

I ride a Salsa La Cruz. My commuter/gravel grinder/group ride/RACE bike/kid hauler. Get over it. It's a bike. I ride where I want when I want without limitations and that's the way I like it. 

And Salsa never made a road bike with discs.......... they were all (brace yourself) CX bikes. The Vaya is the first to be a disc touring type bike from Salsa, and I'm sure you could have some fun on it on the race course just for giggles.


----------



## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

CoastieTX said:


> I guess I underestimate the importance of having the bike cyclocross-race legal, which I doubt most of us care about.


Cyclocross is a style of racing. Why would any company build a cyclocross bike that isn't race legal?
That's like trying to find a 4x bike that runs 650c wheels and side pull/caliper brakes.


----------



## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

Shayne said:


> Cyclocross is a style of racing. Why would any company build a cyclocross bike that isn't race legal?
> That's like trying to find a 4x bike that runs 650c wheels and side pull/caliper brakes.


Disc brakes are only banned from UCI sanctioned competitions.

Many local competitions could care less. Heck, they allow Mountain Bikes with disc brakes to compete!


----------



## hydrogeek (Feb 20, 2006)

Shayne said:


> Cyclocross is a style of racing. Why would any company build a cyclocross bike that isn't race legal?
> That's like trying to find a 4x bike that runs 650c wheels and side pull/caliper brakes.


Why does Jeep sell so many 4x4 rigs to people who only drive to work and back and the grocery store? Because the public wants them. They serve other purposes besides off-road driving, or is the case of the OP, commuting in bad weather.

Man, people get pissy about disc brakes. I can't wait to get off my old bike with v-brakes and get on one with discs. Looking forward to not having the black sludge all over the bike, being able to reliably stop when needed, not having to change pads every two months and rims every year.

Rim brakes to bikes are what solid axles and leaf springs are to a car, they work, but there is much better performing technology for a few bucks more.


----------



## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

^^ Ooh I was totally with you on the Jeep analogy until you threw out the solid axle thing :lol: As a Jeep addict, I speak for many who will agree that the solid axle is where it's at. "real" Jeeps have solid axles. OK I'm off my soapbox.

That being said, I now have 3 bikes with disc brakes. Two with hydros and one with mechanicals. I'll never go back, I don't care who allows them in races. And I won't buy a new bike that's not disc compatible. And I like cyclocross bikes. So I hope they keep making disc compatible, race-worthy cyclocross frames, regardless of rules.


----------



## Presta Pusher (Feb 10, 2010)

I'm going to sound like a crotchety old guy (and I'm not that old) but here goes....

My first "commuter" was a KHS mountain bike my Dad had bought in 1983. In 1985 and 1986, I commuted on that bike (over 10 miles each way) to school in 7th and 8th grade. The bike had cantilever brakes - it's all we had back then on mountain bikes. I always stopped. Sometimes it squeeled and I didn't like the sound, so I came home and adjusted the brakes.

I've since had v-brakes and currently have a mountain bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I am currently having a LBS build me up a commuter bike - with cantilever brakes. I'm a firm believer in keeping things simple. If I'm riding my mountain bike to work, and I'm locking that bike up on a rack buy locking the front wheel to the back wheel and frame (as we used to be taught to do), and someone walks by and squeezes the brake lever, I don't want to have to get off work and have to deal with the situation of dealing with a brake cylinder before putting that front wheel back on. Additionally, if a thief is looking for a bike to steal, chances are that person is going to go for the fanciest bike on the rack first.

The bike I'm having built (because it's what I want) is a Surly Cross Check. I couldn't find what I wanted that would take larger than 35c tires that wasn't a mountain bike. It's going to be a fixed gear with cantilever brakes - Paul Neo Retro brakes - similar to that first mountain bike commuter I had. I have the comfort of knowing I have brakes if I need them on a fixed gear, and if I need to slow down or stop, I can do it without the brakes. I'm very excited about the bike and it meets my requirements.

If you want a bike that takes bigger tires, and your requirement is disk brakes, then why not go with a mountain bike with a fixed fork and run street slicks on the 26" tires? Seems like an easy solution to me.

Heck you could even build a single speed one pretty easily (doesn't even have to be a fixed gear) - SOMA currently has 4ONE5 frames for sale for $290 and a fork that takes disks is only another $120

http://store.somafab.com/so4oonha.html


----------



## woodway (Dec 27, 2005)

Presta Pusher said:


> someone walks by and squeezes the brake lever, I don't want to have to get off work and have to deal with the situation of dealing with a brake cylinder before putting that front wheel back on.


Well, if you are talking about a Cyclocross Frame, you probably have road brake/shifters (brifters) which means you have road discs, which are mechanical discs. Therefore no issues with squeezing the brake lever like you get with hydros.



Presta Pusher said:


> If you want a bike that takes bigger tires, and your requirement is disk brakes, then why not go with a mountain bike with a fixed fork and run street slicks on the 26" tires? Seems like an easy solution to me.


Many people do this, but if you have a commute of any length you are going to appreciate the 700c wheels over 26" wheels, and you will also appreciate the less upright riding position that you get with a road/cyclocross frame - for long rides a road/cyclocross frame is going to be more comfortable.


----------



## Presta Pusher (Feb 10, 2010)

woodway said:


> Many people do this, but if you have a commute of any length you are going to appreciate the 700c wheels over 26" wheels, and you will also appreciate the less upright riding position that you get with a road/cyclocross frame - for long rides a road/cyclocross frame is going to be more comfortable.


This was something I considered very seriously for my build....it's why I went with a Cross Check as opposed to a Mountain Bike.

For me, I wanted a more upright position and decided to opt for bull horn bars rather than traditional drops - with the brake levers mounted up top. Theory being if I'm riding in traffic, I want to be able to see from a higher, upright riding position :thumbsup:

It's all about what you want and how you want to use things. As mentioned, I also have a mountain bike for riding trails on weekends, and I have a "sport" road bike for casual rides off the trail. The Cross Check will be the "in between" bike - thicker tires, steel frame for comfort, higher profile for seeing in traffic, etc.

You can always put together whatever you want and whatever suits your needs. It's not rocket science unless you make it rocket science. If the OP isn't finding what he wants at the local bike stores, then build it or have them build it for you.


----------



## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

26 VS 700 isn`t that much of an issue. My road bike wears 622-32 and my tourer occasionally wears the 559-32 (26 x 1.25) version of the same tire. I don`t notice one being smoother than the other. Rolling resistance is harder to compare since the tourer is a lot heavier than the roadie and has a dyno hub spinning all day every day, but if there`s any difference in rolling, it`s slight.



Presta Pusher said:


> I don't want to have to get off work and have to deal with the situation of dealing with a brake cylinder before putting that front wheel back on.


Going a little OT here, but since this is where it came up...
What situation? Disc brakes don`t have return springs? Or they do, but they get overridden if they`re ativated without a disc between the calipers?


----------



## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

CommuterBoy said:


> That being said, I now have 3 bikes with disc brakes. Two with hydros and one with mechanicals. I'll never go back, I don't care who allows them in races. And I won't buy a new bike that's not disc compatible. And I like cyclocross bikes. So I hope they keep making disc compatible, race-worthy cyclocross frames, regardless of rules.


I have too much time on my hands...



USAC Rulebook said:


> (e) Bicycles must meet current UCI technical regulations at events that select 17-18, U23 and elite riders for international competition or national teams. All bicycles used in National Championships (for age 17 and older riders) and NRC races must comply with the current UCI regulations


I thought that discs were illegal in all USAC-sanctioned 'cross races, which is most of the ones around Seattle, and people could race them just because the marshals don't really care about relatively minor compliance issues outside the Cat. 1/open class. Although I'm actually not too sure how to read this regulation - it sounds like it wouldn't apply to most sanctioned races, but I could also see it applying any time there are USAC points at stake, which is almost all sanctioned races. I guess I'd still tell anyone considering a disc-equipped 'cross bike for racing to check with their local organizer.

I wonder what other countries' national federation versions of the rules are like. Those markets do have some effect on product offerings as well.

OP, what do you think of the Trek Portland and Kona Honky Inc? The Honky Inc has 105 and discs, but a more traditional road geometry. It comes stock with pretty fat tires and they say it'll take fenders. What else would you want from a 'cross bike?

FWIW, I have a Kona Jake, with brakes that are a lower-end version of the same design as the ones on the Jake the Snake you were considering. I'm not a huge fan, even at 150 pounds and no baggage. Tuning helps, and I'm sure there's something better about the more expensive ones, but I can see why you'd want something else. (Still say sidepulls are perfectly good for Seattle weather when it doesn't snow.)


----------



## zombinate (Apr 27, 2009)

So I own a cross bike with discs and 105. The now discontinued Novara Element. It was replaced by the Novara Buzz Road (tiagra based). why? Cause nobody bought the 105 based bike (save the wonderful people in the pacific northwest and Alaska). Demand is Demand. I say go for a Salsa Fargo.


----------



## CoastieTX (Oct 12, 2007)

OP here again, I apologize for not making it back here sooner.

I've been looking at a few bikes now, and done more reading, and I've made the decision that cantis are a no-go. Maybe it's because I've been spoiled by my MTB's BB7s, but on the bikes I looked at, the cantis just seemed inadequate and a real handicap for what I'm trying to do. I don't care about the reasons why they're used on these bikes, no matter how legitimate in the racing world - there are better performing brakes, period.

I like the Gunnar Fast Lane a lot, but am wondering if it's "too much bike" for what I want to do.

At the same time, I'm unsure if one of the relaxed roadies with clearance for fenders and 28C tires (Salsa Casseroll, or Gunnar Sport) can handle very light off-road use (smoothed inner-city dirt pathways), and give adequate wet weather stopping performance in the wet with decent calipers. If so, that's the route I'd like to go, as I'm looking for the least usage overlap between this bike and my rigid 29er.

So basically, the question is relaxed roadie with large clearances, or a beefier disc-equipped Gunnar Fast Lane?


----------



## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

CoastieTX said:


> At the same time, I'm unsure if one of the relaxed roadies with clearance for fenders and 28C tires (Salsa Casseroll, or Gunnar Sport) can handle very light off-road use (smoothed inner-city dirt pathways)


Yes. Just about any normal road bike can handle that stuff too. Given those options, I would opt for the Gunnar.....but I like the paint job on the Casseroll.


----------



## CoastieTX (Oct 12, 2007)

Would you say that the calipers on the road bikes are a noticeable improvement over cantis, especially in the wet? And can their wheels take going up and down curbs, if ridden with finesse?


----------



## mtbxplorer (Dec 25, 2009)

Another consideration is how secure your bike parking is wherever you're commuting to. If you double the cost of your commuter, you square the temptation for any thieves. I am sure there is a math whiz on here that can verify this formula.


----------



## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

CoastieTX said:


> Would you say that the calipers on the road bikes are a noticeable improvement over cantis, especially in the wet? And can their wheels take going up and down curbs, if ridden with finesse?


I think calipers are better, wet and dry, but adjustment of both types makes a pretty big difference, as does pad selection - good, well-tuned cantis will outperform bad sidepulls. Either system needs to be maintained, of course.

I ride my LeMond up and down curbs sometimes, and it's got 23mm tires. Definitely a YMMV situation - I weigh 150 pounds, and am most likely not carrying more than a few tools and powerbars on that bike. I would certainly not do it with a loaded rack or panniers, and if you miss your timing hopping up a curb you're a lot more likely to pinch flat. Riding around on dirt on a road bike is annoying and takes some attention, but it's not that big a deal either. They do contest the Paris-Roubaix on road bikes.


----------



## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*road caliper brakes*

will slow you but not stop you in wet conditions. If you want good wet stopping power id rec V brakes. Ill rec a frame with canti posts and disc tabs. i think this threads come full circle.


----------



## hydrogeek (Feb 20, 2006)

CoastieTX said:


> Would you say that the calipers on the road bikes are a noticeable improvement over cantis, especially in the wet? And can their wheels take going up and down curbs, if ridden with finesse?


This all depends on the parts of the wheelset and how well they were built. I regularly see road wheelsets on CX bikes and they do well for the conditions that you describe. I just built my own wheelset for my CX bike and I used Sun Equalizer 23 rims which are a narrow 29er MTB rim so that I can off road and carry weight for commuting. As long as you aren't hammering them (jumping, hitting the rock garden, etc.) I think the typical road wheelset with 32 spokes or more are just fine.


----------



## jrm (Jan 12, 2004)

*Im not a fan of cantis*

side pulls work OK in wet and dry conditions. One thing i will say is that i use alot more front brake then rear riding the road bike with the side pull 105s in comparison to the CX bike with full sized Vs..

There are also side pull brakes intended for touring that provide a longer arm for more power. They also offer more clearance for larger tires. Check out rivbike.com for some examples.


----------



## CoastieTX (Oct 12, 2007)

Well, I've pretty much decided I'm going to pull the trigger for a Gunnar Fast Lane. It, and the old Salsa La Cruz, is exactly what I had in mind. I've carefully analyzed the routes I commute on and concluded the quickest bike isn't going to be a 100% roadie. The Fast Lane seems to be a very versatile bike - relaxed road geometry, but with enough clearance to go all the way up to a 35c tire with fenders, and of course, discs. 

Some seem to think discs are overkill, and they do add a little weight. But so does a helmet, and in my mind, both are safety features which shouldn't be compromised on. 

Right now I'm just trying to finalize the build parts. The project is costing more than I would have liked, but since I keep my bikes forever, I thought "Why not?" My bikes are one of the few things over the years I've never regretting purchasing.

Thanks for all replies. I agree with the poster this thread has come full circle.


----------



## CoastieTX (Oct 12, 2007)

Well, I've pretty much decided I'm going to pull the trigger for a Gunnar Fast Lane. It, and the old Salsa La Cruz, is exactly what I had in mind. I've carefully analyzed the routes I commute on and concluded the quickest bike isn't going to be a 100% roadie. The Fast Lane seems to be a very versatile bike - relaxed road geometry, but with enough clearance to go all the way up to a 35c tire with fenders, and of course, discs. 

Some seem to think discs are overkill, and they do add a little weight. But so does a helmet, and in my mind, both are safety features which shouldn't be compromised on. 

Right now I'm just trying to finalize the build parts. The project is costing more than I would have liked, but since I keep my bikes forever, I thought "Why not?" My bikes are one of the few things over the years I've never regretting purchasing.

Thanks for all replies. I agree with the poster this thread has come full circle.


----------



## Normbilt (Jan 17, 2004)

Good Choice. Call Waterford and Order!



Waterford Precision Bicycles USA July Factory Tour Ride
https://waterfordbikes.com/now/news.php?newsid=243


----------



## 88 rex (Aug 2, 2007)

CoastieTX said:


> Well, I've pretty much decided I'm going to pull the trigger for a Gunnar Fast Lane.


:thumbsup:


----------



## Sizzler (Sep 24, 2009)

CoastieTX said:


> Some seem to think discs are overkill, and they do add a little weight. But so does a helmet, and in my mind, both are safety features which shouldn't be compromised on.


Comparing disc brakes to using a helmet is a stretch, but if that were the case, I would liken your feelings to wearing a full-face downhill helmet while taking a family bike ride through the park. Personally, I will stick to wrapping a towel around my head, at least until I can afford a helmet.

BTW: Excellent choice on the bike!


----------



## rodar y rodar (Jul 21, 2006)

Balaclava = full faced towel around your head.
New Gunnar: sure wish it were mine.


----------



## rockhound (Dec 19, 2005)

Cannondale Cyclocross Disc


----------



## rockhound (Dec 19, 2005)

Genesis Croix de Fer


----------



## rockhound (Dec 19, 2005)

Hampsten Mud Pig


----------



## pushinpixels (Jul 4, 2007)

*Cotic Roadrat*
Cyclocross-ish 
132.5 dropout for mountain or road wheels
Disk or V brakes
Braze-ons for racks
Drop or flat bar versions
Sliding dropouts with hanger mount for single speed/internal geared or deraileur

(this is my dream commuter frame/fork - about $450 + shipping)

http://www.cotic.co.uk/product/roadrat


----------



## klohiq (Mar 22, 2008)

Shayne said:


> Cyclocross is a style of racing. Why would any company build a cyclocross bike that isn't race legal?
> That's like trying to find a 4x bike that runs 650c wheels and side pull/caliper brakes.


They do it all the time with sport bikes...the zx6r for several years was 636cc which is 36cc over the regulated competition 600 class. 750 bikes are still made (rarely though) and the 750 race class has been gone since the 90s?

I think he meant race-inspired cyclocross bike with non-legal parts. Most "race-spec" parts are about as close to "mil-spec" parts...a worthless marketing term because they are usually only cosmetically similar to the real thing.


----------



## blahwtf? (Aug 6, 2005)

x2 on the doublecross disc. likin mine.


----------



## BrianMc (Jan 5, 2010)

Commuter with discs? No problem. If you've got about 8 large to spend here's your bike:



For the guy who's concerned that his Bimmer isn't good for his carbon footprint.


----------



## shirk (Mar 24, 2004)

Traitor Ruben


----------



## enio (Jun 6, 2007)

wow, that ruben looks gorgeous !!


----------



## ryball (May 14, 2007)

If I could find a way to add this to the herd, I would.

Civia Bryant Alfine - disks, belt, steel, IGH... check, check, check, check... dammit.


----------



## luv2bikewny (Apr 3, 2004)

shirk said:


> Traitor Ruben


Beautiful bike. Thanks for posting that link.


----------



## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

why's noone modify anything anymore!?
i was discussing my "bday build" with the wife over lunch 
(birthday time begats something unique every year, sometimes the plans fall through or get abandoned, but I try to really launch myself out there)
and the idea of disc'ing up the steel roadie frame came back up. 
disc mounts welded on, maybe 100$?
reposition the caliper brake arch for more tire clearance, maybe another 50? bit of a repaint would be necessary of course darling!!  

I figure I can get 32's in this thing easily, maybe 35mm slicks.
that and an origin8 or traitor cross fork gets me in the ballpark.
so I keep the reynolds pipes and get discs, and the geo is TOTALLY road-biased so I don't lose handling for the sake of stronger brakes and 10mm fatter tire.
can't beat that for a couple hunskis.

that ruben is hot by the way... best in the white and oil rig paintjob though!


----------



## BrianMc (Jan 5, 2010)

byknuts said:


> why's noone modify anything anymore!?


I can buy a Nashbar X frame and forks for it for less than a 1" threadless disc fork for the classic road bike. Discs = new bike. Which is down the road. But inevitable.

It was 2 x 5 ten speed in 1981, 3 x 7 speed from 2008 to now. and 3 x 10 speed, 700C down from 27" in May. I can fit 700-35's with fenders.



byknuts said:


> I figure I can get 32's in this thing easily, maybe 35mm slicks.
> that and an origin8 or traitor cross fork gets me in the ballpark.
> so I keep the reynolds pipes and get discs, and the geo is TOTALLY road-biased so I don't lose handling for the sake of stronger brakes and 10mm fatter tire.
> can't beat that for a couple hunskis.


I like it.



byknuts said:


> that ruben is hot by the way... best in the white and oil rig paintjob though!


Nice. But the yellow curried no favour with you? (favour: Canadian spelling, Hey, I'm bilingual!) Very bumble bee sting/road hazard/radioactive warning thing going on there.


----------



## byknuts (Aug 9, 2008)

I have a 15 month old... see enough "yellow curry" colour around here  
"hard" colours colours have recently seen favour at casa byknuts... 
nothing that couldashouldabeendigestedbutisn't.


----------



## honourablegeorge (May 2, 2006)

Cotic Roadrat

I love mine - with discs and fla tbar, this is without discs and with drops.

Can have it geared, singlespeed, drop or flat bar versions, with or without discs.


----------



## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

^^Those are seriously cool. Where can you get one in the U S of A? 
Serious contender for the next bike...


----------



## BrianMc (Jan 5, 2010)

CommuterBoy said:


> ^^Those are seriously cool. Where can you get one in the U S of A?
> Serious contender for the next bike...


Site says:

Available worldwide including North America.

http://www.cotic.co.uk/product/roadrat


----------



## honourablegeorge (May 2, 2006)

Contact Cotic directly. I dealt with a guy called Paul, who was really good and helpful.

https://www.cotic.co.uk

They've just started doing geared and alfine complete bikes too, or you can just buy the frame and forks. The drop bar and flat bar frames have slightly different geometry.

This is mine - singlespeed with SRAM S300 chainset, Magura discs, Ritchey carbon bars and DMR V8 .pedals. And yes, the front disc is supposed to be on that side.


----------



## Mr Pink57 (Jul 30, 2009)

You could always buy a bike then put a disc front fork on it. Most of the braking power is up front anyways.

pink


----------



## rockhound (Dec 19, 2005)

byknuts said:


> ... the idea of disc'ing up the steel roadie frame came back up.
> disc mounts welded on, maybe 100$?
> reposition the caliper brake arch for more tire clearance, maybe another 50? bit of a repaint would be necessary of course darling!!


Just adding a disc-brake mount does not mean a rotor will clear your seat or chainstay.



honourablegeorge said:


> Cotic Roadrat
> 
> I love mine - with discs and fla tbar, this is without discs and with drops.
> 
> Can have it geared, singlespeed, drop or flat bar versions, with or without discs.


I love the Road Rat and would like to have one.

For someone who wants a flatbar commuter with discs, it would be easier (and cheaper) to just run 700c disc wheels in a disc-only mtb frame (i.e. Cannondale Bad Boy).


----------

