# Them old guys (world championship 1994 video)



## Kasper (Feb 23, 2004)

Yeah. This probably belongs in Videos and Helmetcam but I figured you guys would appreciate it more 






I had the pleasure of racing against that Djernis guy last year -he rides a rigid bike and is still freaking fast. Beat me by a lap on a two hour race.

Kasper
Denmark


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## unicrown junkie (Nov 12, 2009)

Thank you so much for posting this!!! I was there at the '94 Worlds. Me and my GF at the time drove all the way from Nevada City to Vail in my 72 VW Bus, and that was the last trip it ever made. We limped into town, and on the way back sold it for scrap in SLC. We spent the weekend right there in the heart of downtown Vail in one of the most beat up VW bus's you ever would have seen!

I remember waking up the second morning and hearing that Frishknect had broken his collarbone the night before, everyone was stunned. I was glad that Henrik won, since my heritage is Danish. After the race was over I tried my hand at riding there, damn it was tough at 8400 feet and climbing.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Thanks for the video. I was standing in that crowd watching the crashes at "the Bailout" during this race. I lived about 25 minutes from there and came over for the day.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

I was there too. Note Johnny T at 6:50, the only top contender to ride that drop with any semblance of skill. Those XC guys could maybe benefit from staying off the road bike in their training. :\


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I was there too. Note Johnny T at 6:50, the only top contender to ride that drop with any semblance of skill. Those XC guys could maybe benefit from staying off the road bike in their training. :\


Crappy brakes, crappy tires, crappy forks, and essentially road race hardtail frame geometries.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Crappy brakes, crappy tires, crappy forks, and essentially road race hardtail frame geometries.


And Tomac had the only real bike? Just a bunch of highly-fit roadies in the dirt.

Bikes, tires and brakes in '94 worked just fine.


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## MABman (Oct 5, 2008)

Weinsy's crash at 2:30 is a good one. Also that one right after JT's clean shot where the bike went in to the crowd.

Speaking of World Champions from that event:

The Durango Herald 11/24/2011 | Missy Giove sentenced in pot-trafficking case


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## grandsalmon (Oct 24, 2005)

Ah the memories- 
I also was there at the 'bailout section'; big cheers for the African team- I forget the nation, but it was a true 'Cool Runnings'. The story was the team called when they got off their flight, and the organizer just figured they were at Denver, but no they were in New York. Money was collected and they rode Greyhound all the way out, and the local bike shop loaned them bikes.

Hans Rey put on a great trials show in the town center's fountain. Rumor was Henrik's elastomers on his Pro-Flex were dummies. Great Video, thanks!



.


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## hairstream (Apr 20, 2008)

...flatlanders.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Crappy brakes, crappy tires, crappy forks, and essentially road race hardtail frame geometries.


In 1984 yes. 94? No.


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## woodandsteel (Jul 28, 2010)

That's fun to watch! I was a course judge the following year, and worked at VBS bike shop in Lionshead village for the summer. My first day at work was spent boxing up some of the racers' bikes to ship home.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Definitely appreciated here!

Great vid.


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## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

The bailout is brutal. I went 1 for 4 at Vail 2001. When we did it, it was at the end of a long descent, and my arms were all pumped out.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> And Tomac had the only real bike? Just a bunch of highly-fit roadies in the dirt.
> 
> Bikes, tires and brakes in '94 worked just fine.


Oh yeah, I forgot. You cleaned it three times, while Henrik and Tinker walked it.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

honkinunit said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot. You cleaned it three times.


Don't be sour because you don't have skill.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> Don't be sour because you don't have skill.


Yeah. Neither did Henrik, Tinker, Weinsy....

Nothing smells of "tool" more than dissing pro riders for their "skillz" 17 years later based on fuzzy memories and a 320p video.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

grandsalmon said:


> Ah the memories-
> I also was there at the 'bailout section'; big cheers for the African team- I forget the nation, but it was a true 'Cool Runnings'. The story was the team called when they got off their flight, and the organizer just figured they were at Denver, but no they were in New York. Money was collected and they rode Greyhound all the way out, and the local bike shop loaned them bikes.
> 
> Hans Rey put on a great trials show in the town center's fountain. Rumor was Henrik's elastomers on his Pro-Flex were dummies. Great Video, thanks!
> ...


Cool story about the African team. HD was on a Ritchey in this vid though...you mean when he switched teams?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

honkinunit said:


> Yeah. Neither did Henrik, Tinker, Weinsy....
> 
> Nothing smells of "tool" more than dissing pro riders for their "skillz" 17 years later based on fuzzy memories and a 320p video.


I think the point is that Tomac is especially skillful. These guys are obviously all great riders.
We're just having a nice discussion about the vid. The only tool here seems to be you.


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

Haha- great video! I was there as well and still have the t-shirt to prove it.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> I think the point is that Tomac is especially skillful. These guys are obviously all great riders.
> We're just having a nice discussion about the vid. The only tool here seems to be you.


Nice discussion? Gee, I read two posts claiming that the riders in the video sucked.

People look at that drop and think "Gee, I rolled a drop like that on my 5x5, disk braked, 68 degree headtube bike while fresh last week, what's wrong with these guys?"

What's "wrong" with these riders? It is that that drop was at the end of a very long descent where they were already arm pumped, their brakes were sucking from the powder dust that day getting under the pads, they were in the middle of the most intense physical exertion imaginable, they were riding hardtails with 73 degree headtubes, flat bars 19 inches wide that were three to six inches lower than their saddle, and they had all of 50mm of crappily dampened front shock travel.

Watching this video and dissing their abilities makes no sense. These were the best riders in the world. It is like watching a rally car video from the 60's and saying the driver sucked because you could go faster in your 2011 STi.

Yeah, they sucked for not risking their World Championship result by riding that drop.


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## grandsalmon (Oct 24, 2005)

Rumpfy said:


> Cool story about the African team. HD was on a Ritchey in this vid though...you mean when he switched teams?


I gotta go under hypnosis again- HD was riding for Ritchey then, so I wonder who rode that Pro-Flex? It was in the pits, rider well known. Anyway, I can't remember what I had for breakfast. But I do remember now, Missy Giove was cookin' for Downhill. I was damn impressed.

So much for ginko biloba, but the African team's trip is straight up.


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## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> What's "wrong" with these riders? It is that that drop was at the end of a very long descent where they were already arm pumped, their brakes were sucking from the powder dust that day getting under the pads, they were in the middle of the most intense physical exertion imaginable, they were riding hardtails with 73 degree headtubes, flat bars 19 inches wide that were three to six inches lower than their saddle, and they had all of 50mm of crappily dampened front shock travel.


Lot of misinformation in here.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

ameybrook said:


> Lot of misinformation in here.


Like?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Watching this video and dissing their abilities makes no sense. These were the best riders in the world.


I guess it's just that. What bugged me is that the commentator said "these guys are the best mountain bikers in the world"... and yes, that could certainly be argued, but to me those guys in the XC race are just the guys that were blessed with good genes and can pedal the hardest for 2 hours. I would say most of them have average bike handling skills and some just look downright scary. Now I definitely have respect for their fitness and they could kill me on any climb of course, but to say those guys, with those skills, are the best mtb riders in the world just bugs me a little. You could take the top 10 there and put them on XC skis for two years and they'd be at the top in that sport too. It's just fitness that seperates them from us, not bike handling skills...

Now, the downhill guys on the other hand, from that very race, those were the best riders in the world in '94. 

Yeah, I'm biased I guess.


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## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Like?


Well, for one the head angles were likely around 71, not 73.

And the bars were likely around 22", not 19"

And as for saddles "3 inches' above the bars, well...


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

ameybrook said:


> Well, for one the head angles were likely around 71, not 73.
> 
> And the bars were likely around 22", not 19"
> 
> And as for saddles "3 inches' above the bars, well...


Go look at the video. Juarez and Brentjen's saddles were *at least* three inches higher than their handlebars. More like 5-6 in the case of Brentjens. Djernis' bar height was obviously variable, if he actually used that stem. When going down a drop it would have been *more* than three inches below his saddle when the Softride compressed. Note also that the rider's CG on bikes of that era was several inches forward of what is considered "normal" today with shorter stems, longer travel forks, and riser bars.

Look at Djernis' brake levers. The number almost completely covered the brake lever bodies. When he was on the brakes his hands were about 15 inches apart! 71-72-73 degrees was standard for a headtube angle on a race hardtail then, with larger frames being steeper.

Note also the front wheel with 28 radial spokes. Yeah, lets do a drop like that on a 380 gram rim laced with 28 radial spokes. Remember this was early 1990's rim technology.

And of course the awesome cantilevers. People forget how pumped your arms would get in a race with long descents with cantis, especially in the wet or in dusty conditions.


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## stan lee (Mar 5, 2006)

I remember standing at the bailout thinking "man, these guys are a bunch of wusses"


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Blah Blah Blah


You like to randomly spout off vaguely related opinions
We get it
You can stop now


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Modern XC bike with bars 3-4" lower than seat, narrow bars and even lighter 24 spoke wheel. And get this, when the fork compresses, the bars even go lower than 3-4" below saddle!



















Now don't get me wrong, I'd take the new one over the old one for an XC race, but those bikes worked pretty good in 94. And you can see the difference in skills from Tomac to the others, which is mainly what I was pointing out. Yes, I also got a jab in at the lack of bike skills the rest of the "greyhound" pure-breads (that train mostly on the road bike) had.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

semi-related, but I always liked the top XC guys that could really ride a bike well like, Tomac, Rune Hoydahl, Adam Craig, Todd Wells, Frischi, and I know I left out a good number of others. And then there are guys like Mark Weir, Ross Schnell, etc... Just good all-around bike riders.


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## unicrown junkie (Nov 12, 2009)

* Fillet-Brazed*, I have to admit I don't understand where your POV is coming from. Back in the late 80s and early 90s, any regular XC rider had to have more than adequate DH skills.

Look at my personal favorite rider, Paul Thomasberg. Take Paul and add Ned, Max Jones and Tomac and you have some of the best OVERALL top racers in the world who could kick butt at all disciplines, not just climbing. That is just to name a few. They did this year after year.

I think when you mention the fitness factor, from what I hear it was when Overend showed up for one of the first times(Whiskeytown 84 or 85?), and promptly put the field in its place. Plus, in 1994 the DH guys then were barely removed from the XC crowd, we're only talking a full four years of front-end suspension development. Several were already well into DH cuz the XC field was getting tougher and tougher very season.



Fillet-brazed said:


> I guess it's just that. What bugged me is that the commentator said "these guys are the best mountain bikers in the world"... and yes, that could certainly be argued, but to me those guys in the XC race are just the guys that were blessed with good genes and can pedal the hardest for 2 hours. I would say most of them have average bike handling skills and some just look downright scary. Now I definitely have respect for their fitness and they could kill me on any climb of course, but to say those guys, with those skills, are the best mtb riders in the world just bugs me a little. You could take the top 10 there and put them on XC skis for two years and they'd be at the top in that sport too. It's just fitness that seperates them from us, not bike handling skills...
> 
> Now, the downhill guys on the other hand, from that very race, those were the best riders in the world in '94.
> 
> Yeah, I'm biased I guess.


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## LeicaLad (Jun 5, 2010)

No dog in this fight. Just a damn fine video.

Thanks for posting it. I'd have never seen it otherwise.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

unicrown junkie said:


> * Fillet-Brazed*, I have to admit I don't understand where your POV is coming from. Back in the late 80s and early 90s, any regular XC rider had to have more than adequate DH skills.
> 
> Look at my personal favorite rider, Paul Thomasberg. Take Paul and add Ned, Max Jones and Tomac and you have some of the best OVERALL top racers in the world who could kick butt at all disciplines, not just climbing. That is just to name a few. They did this year after year.
> 
> I think when you mention the fitness factor, from what I hear it was when Overend showed up for one of the first times(Whiskeytown 84 or 85?), and promptly put the field in its place. Plus, in 1994 the DH guys then were barely removed from the XC crowd, we're only talking a full four years of front-end suspension development. Several were already well into DH cuz the XC field was getting tougher and tougher very season.


I'm getting in trouble fast here. 

Actually, Paul Thomasberg was one of the great descenders that I forgot to mention. He was awesome and mostly an unsung hero. I don't know about Ned doing well at Whiskeytown, but I think it was Joe Murray maybe.

I don't want to take anything from those top XC guys in the 90s. They were fine riders with incredible fitness. I'm just saying a lot of them trained on the road mainly and it looked that way to me. A lot of them seemed to have average (or thereabout) skills when the trail went downhill.

And there were always great downhillers even in the 80s before suspension. Suspension is not what developed the discipline (if that's what you were trying to say).

And yes, all the top XC contenders have adequate DH skills. But don't think that because they got 3rd, or even 1st, at the World XC championships that they could therefore beat the winner of a Sport Class DH race down a hill.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Modern XC bike with bars 3-4" lower than seat, narrow bars and even lighter 24 spoke wheel. And get this, when the fork compresses, the bars even go lower than 3-4" below saddle!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Modern Carbon Fiber XC bike with 4" of nicely damped suspension front and rear, a slack geometry that slackens even more when weighted to the rear, a short stem, hydraulic disk brakes, and 16 years of wheel, tire and metallurgy development beyond 1994.

Fixed that for you.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Shayne said:


> You like to randomly spout off vaguely related opinions
> We get it
> You can stop now


Who died and made you forum God?


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Modern Carbon Fiber XC bike with 4" of nicely damped suspension front and rear, a slack geometry that slackens even more when weighted to the rear, a short stem, hydraulic disk brakes, and 16 years of wheel, tire and metallurgy development beyond 1994.
> 
> Fixed that for you.


Yep, I'd prefer the new one if I had to earn my money on the race course, but just wanted to use your points about the low, narrow bars, low spoke count (and bars that get lower when the suspension compressed). 

And by the way, if we look at Absalon's Orbea, it has the same geometry as the bikes in 94 with a 71/73 geometry...

The horse is now dead.


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## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

Fillet-brazed said:


> low spoke count


Dont forget radial. Just like the front wheel on HD's Ritchey


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

ameybrook said:


> Dont forget radial. Just like the front wheel on HD's Ritchey


ha. I noticed that.


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## honkinunit (Aug 6, 2004)

Modern disk-only, tubeless wheels are a world away from Ritchey WCS box section rims laced to standard hubs. A 1994 radially spoked standard wheel is much more fragile than one built with modern carbon rim like the Rovals on the Specialized. 

But you knew that.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

honkinunit said:


> Modern disk-only, tubeless wheels are a world away from Ritchey WCS box section rims laced to standard hubs. A 1994 radially spoked standard wheel is much more fragile than one built with modern carbon rim like the Rovals on the Specialized.
> 
> But you knew that.


I hesitate to take another swing at this deceased horse, but Djernis' wheels are not radial laced nor are the rims "box section".

And is there a test showing how much stronger the carbon hoops are than the aluminum rims? If I had to guess, I think Djernis' wheels might actually take more abuse than Sauser's, but don't know for sure.


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## Kasper (Feb 23, 2004)

Here's an even older one .. 1992 Quebec Canada.

Cheers!


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## unicrown junkie (Nov 12, 2009)

honkinunit said:


> Modern disk-only, tubeless wheels are a world away from Ritchey WCS box section rims laced to standard hubs. A 1994 radially spoked standard wheel is much more fragile than one built with modern carbon rim like the Rovals on the Specialized.
> 
> But you knew that.


 I don't. So explain exactly how much tougher are the new wheels. I haven't seen anything drastically redesigned that shows me new carbon based wheels are going to take extreme drops and mishaps any more than older wheels do to the amount that it somehow relegates the old stuff to the junk bin.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Kasper said:


> Here's an even older one .. 1992 Quebec Canada.
> 
> Cheers!


Thanks for sharing. Very cool. Djernis sure looked great on the bike. I think he got 3 titles in a row at the Worlds. And then he went to Pro-Flex...


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## unicrown junkie (Nov 12, 2009)

Fillet-brazed said:


> I'm getting in trouble fast here.
> 
> Actually, Paul Thomasberg was one of the great descenders that I forgot to mention. He was awesome and mostly an unsung hero. I don't know about Ned doing well at Whiskeytown, but I think it was Joe Murray maybe.
> 
> ...


 *Fillet Brazed*, I think your statement about suspension not developing the discipline is well taken. That should be a sticky or mantra thread, imho. I went back to rigid after disposing of my IRD cross country forks w IRD U-brakes. I learned how to ride rigid in the mid eighties, and prefer it that way still, hence my regular ride is my 89 Stumpie Team.

I agree a lot with what you are saying, but the correlation like road training was inevitable, unless the off-road community had chosen to "outlaw" roadies, but they didn't, and for good reason.

I remember Thomasberg showing up for the weekly_ road_ Davis TT out on Putah Crk Rd back in 87. He had the very first version of SpecialEds Fatboy tires on his WTB ride, and then promptly _kicked ass_.

Fast forward fifteen years and onto Steve Larsen (RIP, my friend). He did almost ALL disciplines, and ended up after starting as a roadie to be the XC champion. He fits your bill of roadies taking over perfectly, but was damn good overall. Going to school together in 85 I had no idea he would end up doing that.

As for Joe Murray, I have the greatest respect for him. Riding w/o clips and straps and kicking butt, damn!!!!!


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## ameybrook (Sep 9, 2006)

honkinunit said:


> Go look at the video. Juarez and Brentjen's saddles were *at least* three inches higher than their handlebars.


Edit. I can't find a good pic, but I'm pretty sure Juarez ran a neg rise stem just to keep the bars level with the saddle.










his bike at Mombat?










I'll concede Brentjens though.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

ameybrook said:


> Edit. I can't find a good pic, but I'm pretty sure Juarez ran a neg rise stem just to keep the bars level with the saddle.


Man I miss those days. Good ol' Tinker and Ned.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Cool to watch the Ritchey riders doin it cx style.


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## unicrown junkie (Nov 12, 2009)

ameybrook said:


> Edit. I can't find a good pic, but I'm pretty sure Juarez ran a neg rise stem just to keep the bars level with the saddle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 1993 and '94 could arguably be considered the turning point for bars going back up, and seat posts coming down. I ride old-school flat bars, and wide. The difference between my bar and seat has to be at least five inches, if not more. Here's a pic of my '86 Sport before I put fat tires on it. 1986stumpiesport.jpg photo - Six Rivers Rail photos at pbase.com

Tinker had that crazy Canyonsnail and showed the rest how the new style of fitting on a bike made more sense in terms of comfort, DH control, and overall better balance achieved over the late 80s and 90s bikes.

The only thing that could be argued that suffered was climbing prowess, the higher bars negated climbing very steep stuff since balance moved back some, but as Fillet Brazed pointed out the physical abilities from roadies made those frame aspects not needed any longer.


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## pinguwin (Aug 20, 2004)

I think I understand what filletBrazed is saying. I rode expert class years ago and some of the people I started with (but not finished with) were professionals. So, take it FWIW.

Recently we were discussing the best riders and some people were asking if they had the most amazing handling skills or what? I said, "Not really. Certainly the expert riders are going to be generally better handlers than Comp class (2cd class), but if I had the choice of (expert strength & comp handling skills) or (expert handling & comp strength), there would be no doubt I'd take the first one." 

I've ridden with some expert riders half my age and there is no doubt I'm a far better handler than many of them but the speed has faded over the years.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

honkinunit said:


> Who died and made you forum God?


Why you tryin' to take my title of resident punk?


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## ssulljm (Sep 3, 2006)

The African's were from Uganda, w Sam Muwangi as their unofficial team leader, he was(is) a gentle-noble man, and I choked up+shed tears as he told me how he had lost 3 of his 7 children to HIV.
And had to take on 7 of his relatives children because of their parents(his siblings+various cousins) dying from aids+ war in Uganda.
He stayed w me in my room ,w the other team members spread throughout the Vail area.

Good Jake Watson story, I have pics of Jake w the Ugandan's at the top of the DH, Jake was behind the Ugandans in the DH race due to a poor showing on his qualify'ng run....

Tidbit on the 92 Bromont vid,
2:44 into this vid, that's yours truly in the feed zone(US feeder w radio on belt)
And also regarding the Bromont vid,
Canadien Nat Team Rider(and Ritchey that year)Warren Sallenbach, who was in the top 3 for awhile(ended up top 20) and I talked a few weeks ago, he nonchalantly stated that he still has the Ritchey team bike he rode in 92, and it still has the #'s from the Quebec event on it.....


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## hairstream (Apr 20, 2008)

they could use a couple of those bail out sections at the london 2012 course.


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