# Machine welded frames bad?



## RogerDoger (Sep 20, 2008)

So people in other threads and in person are always bagging on Taiwanese machine welded frames as though they are the devil. I'm wondering what is the down side is to a machine welded frame made overseas compared to something handmade in the USA? I understand that some frame builders are masters but let's say that of the ones made in the USA as MANY as 5% are made by master welders. So what's the word? I'm not trying to flame, I would just like an educated explanation please.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*They're not made by machines*

99% of the bikes made overseas are made by human welders. Specialized was doing some of their 2-piece molded alloy frames with a robot, I think, but generally, it's a human. Labor is *cheap* in some parts of the world - robots only make sense if they're even cheaper. And right now, for most things, including welding bikes, they're not.

And I'm guessing that most of the bike welders in Taiwan are WAY better than the folks here. I weld 1 or 2 frames a week, and each one takes me quite a while. I bet some of the guys in Taiwan or China (or India, though you don't see those bikes in the States) do 50+ in a day. Who's going to have more practice/experience under their belt? That's not to say they necessarily care much about their work or that the person who designed the bike knows anything about how it will ride or fit, but the welders themselves are definitely highly skilled.

So to answer the question, there is nothing wrong with the welding, generally. You can find examples of every kind of frame breaking in just about every possible way, regardless of where it was built, but the vast majority hold up well. Just about any high end (meaning >$500) bike you can buy is well made and safe, honestly.

There is a whole economic/political buying local or USA products shouting match we could have about this too, but it's been done before. A handbuilt frame generally comes with more personal attention, better fit and design, and can be tweaked to suit your riding needs. For some people, that's worth the money, for some it's not.

-Walt


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

I don't think each worker welds an entire frame. I think they are only responsible for one weld in the sequence. I don't think it really matters. A better use of your time is rag on machine built wheels. Still a waste of time, but a better use.


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## rogueturtle (Mar 13, 2004)

Machine welding in certain industries is the mandated method to insure flawlessness of weld-penetration and strength. IN fact- in certain industries human welding is only the initial spot welds to tack material into place and the robots come in when "perfection" is REQUIRED.

Not that a human cant turn out some pretty welds............but for a $2000 bike frame its one thing.................but for $$$10million+ industrial applications.........humans arent allowed.

Ive seen Sycips/Merlins/Moots/SEvens ALL with cracks on weld areas where too much heat penetration occurred. Just got a SEVEN back from repair of this very problem.........crack along weld

dont believe that a human can outweld a machine. Once you start welding- you realize that a human is only advantageous in places where sending a robot would be prohibitively expensive- ie underwater or tight places. If its welded by machine....chances are you are getting superior welds.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

Just before I started building my own frames I was riding a $200 Zion (Jenson) frame. It was one of the nicest frames I had owned to date. Supurb welding, not the lightest but totally bomb proof. More important than anything else, the bike rode great. How a bike rides is the ultimate measure, Nothing else is as important.


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## ted wojcik (Mar 12, 2006)

*machine welds*

Holding a certification from the FAA for airframe welding in both TIG and Oxy-acetylene I can tell you that there are plenty of weldments done by machine and that are not only inferior to those done by hand, but not practical to be done by machine. Either can be screwed up. Rogueturtle's statement is not exactly accurate.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

ted wojcik said:


> Holding a certification from the FAA for airframe welding in both TIG and Oxy-acetylene I can tell you that there are plenty of weldments done by machine and that are not only inferior to those done by hand, but not practical to be done by machine. Either can be screwed up. Rogueturtle's statement is not exactly accurate.


Ted is 110% right of course. Robotic welding is best done on items that are being produced in large quantities and are identical. The operator has to program in all the welding parameters and of course if anything were to change, the entire program has to change. Not very conducive to custom runs. I recently was looking closely at a rocket engine for the space shuttle. There are miles of hand made TIG welds all over it. Some of them not even that visually pleasing but I am sure they are checked six ways from sunday and near perfect. These are things that just could not yet be done with a robot.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## disease (Nov 27, 2007)

You can buy used welding robots for as little as $10,000. Amazing. A custom frame is how much? I should just buy a robot and make my own, since I cannot weld.

http://www.robots.com/specials.php?type=robot


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## verticult (Jan 18, 2005)

at this point it's not likely that a machine could TIG weld a bicycle frame. Some frames are MIG welded in machines that are capable of doing a few joints.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

verticult said:


> at this point it's not likely that a machine could TIG weld a bicycle frame. Some frames are MIG welded in machines that are capable of doing a few joints.


Not that I think it is important because I like humanly welded bicycle frames but a bike frame could absolutely be TIG welded with current robotic technology. Add plasma, pulsed MIG or any other process. You can google robotic tig welding to check it out.

http://www.reisrobotics.de/us/APPLICATIONS/Welding+technique-p-124/Tig+welding-p-365.html

I don't personally know of any bicycle company doing it. Probably the economics just do not work out. In that robotic systems like this cost a lot and have to show an improvement over the low wage human welders that do this kind of work. Maybe for a nuclear pressure fitting or turbine blade, but in a frame manufactured for a total cost of 20 dollars a increase in failure rates of a few percent wouldn't warrant it.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles
http://www.bohemianbicycles.com


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## disease (Nov 27, 2007)

dbohemian said:


> Not that I think it is important because I like humanly welded bicycle frames but a bike frame could absolutely be TIG welded with current robotic technology. Add plasma, pulsed MIG or any other process. You can google robotic tig welding to check it out.
> 
> http://www.reisrobotics.de/us/APPLICATIONS/Welding+technique-p-124/Tig+welding-p-365.html
> 
> ...


Merida bicycles in Taiwan uses TIG(or GTAW) welding robots for aluminum frames. I don't know of any others. It would be interesting to see if anyone is using robots to TIG weld thin walled steel or titanium frames.

Large firms, with their mass quantities of identical frames, are the obvious candidates for robotic welding. These same firms are the ones most likely be invested in offshore assembly, where labour costs are low. They simply don't need to bother with robotics.

Small builders do mostly custom work, so a robot makes no sense. They would spend time programming the robot for just one frame, and then reprogram it for the next frame. Most small builders probably don't have the capital to fund such a machine either.


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## Dr JRod (Mar 8, 2005)

disease said:


> You can buy used welding robots for as little as $10,000. Amazing. A custom frame is how much? I should just buy a robot and make my own, since I cannot weld.


I may detect saracasm, but I'll add this anyway. As someone who programs welding robots, you should know something about welding to be able to tell a robot what to do. Voltage, amperage, torch angle, travel speed, stickout are all critical to the machine doing its job right. Also, you don't want a crappy manipulator or the service calls ($100+/hr) will kill you. One thing I've learned for sure, if the parts are dead-nuts everytime, you'll be chasing your tail forever. 1mm is a long way off on a weld seam when the robot goes to the same spot every time.
J


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

https://www2.merida-bikes.com/en_INT/About.Factory



















"Robot welded frames are more reliable than handmade. Merida's robot welded system consists of 10 welding robots which specialized in producing aluminum or magnesium frames on a massive scale.

The system has a capacity of more than 200.000 units a year. "


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## disease (Nov 27, 2007)

Dr JRod said:


> I may detect saracasm, but I'll add this anyway. As someone who programs welding robots, you should know something about welding to be able to tell a robot what to do. Voltage, amperage, torch angle, travel speed, stickout are all critical to the machine doing its job right. Also, you don't want a crappy manipulator or the service calls ($100+/hr) will kill you. One thing I've learned for sure, if the parts are dead-nuts everytime, you'll be chasing your tail forever. 1mm is a long way off on a weld seam when the robot goes to the same spot every time.
> J


I was being sarcastic, sort of. I suspect that you would need some sort of automated tube cutting and feeding system in order to exploit the full potential of the welding robot, or would you?

PVD has posted a link to the Merida factory. Could a robot such as the one featured make thin walled steel frames?


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## highdelll (Oct 3, 2008)

rogueturtle said:


> Machine welding in certain industries is the mandated method to insure flawlessness of weld-penetration and strength. IN fact- in certain industries human welding is only the initial spot welds to tack material into place and the robots come in when "perfection" is REQUIRED.
> 
> Not that a human cant turn out some pretty welds............but for a $2000 bike frame its one thing.................but for $$$10million+ industrial applications.........humans arent allowed.
> 
> ...


+1---i'd gladly ride a bike w/ robot welds
robot tube bending as well...wheels - ahhh hand-built for sure:thumbsup: that...i can do


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

disease said:


> Could a robot such as the one featured make thin walled steel frames?


You do understand that aluminum welding is far more difficult that steel welding? That machine could do thin steel blindfolded. If I had a robot welder, I wouldn't waste a second working with steel. Steel makes you far less money, it costs you way too much to make a bike light, and aluminum bikes are better performing.

Why are people so hung up on steel?


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## ted wojcik (Mar 12, 2006)

*What's the point?*

All this dialog on frame joining makes little or no sense. If the frame is of tubular design and welded, then how it is welded matters not. If there is adequate strength in the joint, that is all that matters. Some techniques may be more pleasing to the eye, but as long as the mechanical requirements are met, the discipline used in joining the tube won't matter. I have read some posts about one type of joining method having a different ride quality than another, but if the tube material and dimensions remain the same, there will be little or no difference in how the bike rides, and if there is a difference, who is to say which is "better". I won't get into the material argument here, there are many reasons that steel hasn't disappeared from the market place. It remains the most popular material used by small custom frame builders who serve riders that have a need or desire that is not being supplied by the mass manufacturers. There is a growing popularity of boutique steel frames and bikes. I don't think that it is the attraction to robots and "Carbotitailumaboroclan"


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

pvd said:


> Why are people so hung up on steel?


So far as I can tell, because:-

1. Historical reasons - It harks back to the early days, and their first bikes. Titanium is popular for similar reasons.
2. It is claimed by magazines to be "easily mendable".
3. It rhymes with "real".


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

But all of those are such stupid reasons in a day where awesome aluminum frames are available as commodities for under $200 at weights that are lower than even the finest steel or TI frames. A full carbon road bike is currently the only honest option for top performance AND top comfort.

I build with steel because it is cheap and easy. That's it. I would prefer to blend carbon and aluminum, but that's out of my budget and scale at this point.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

pvd said:


> But all of those are such stupid reasons in a day where awesome aluminum frames are available as commodities for under $200 at weights that are lower than even the finest steel or TI frames. A full carbon road bike is currently the only honest option for top performance AND top comfort.
> 
> I build with steel because it is cheap and easy. That's it. I would prefer to blend carbon and aluminum, but that's out of my budget and scale at this point.


Really, I would rather stay out of it, but PVD compels me to say something. I guess he has that effect on many people. 

Weight is not the only compelling reason to use a material although, even here it seems to come to that most of the time.

If you feel that a mixture of materials would be best suited for a bicycle frame and to some extent I agree with you than learn to use them. IMHO carbon has a similar entry price to steel. The material may be expensive, then again you don't need fancy welders, mills and lathes etc. Some famous carbon builders really have very minimal shops that are more like a surfboard shop than a traditional frame shop. Welding aluminum? Cake and certainly someone around you could heat-treat/age it for you?

Walt wrote a great piece about this. I for one because I am fat and out of shape cannot possibly use "top performance" IMHO 99% of all riders cannot exceed the "performance" of even average bicycles. I am more of a road guy but if I build a reasonably light frame and deck it out with the same lightweight parts many of the club people are riding with it would still be below 15-16lbs, and be stiff, strong, durable and most importantly fit better than a majority of these carbon/aluminum frames they are riding. I don't see how that could possibly affect performance.

Personally if i had to do it all over again knowing what I know now and my goal was to be a viable frame shop financially I would build in composites. The entry price is low, people want the product, it has a good profit margin and can advance with the times. Still though, I would know that a well constructed, designed steel/aluminum/ti bike was just a good and for some applications a lot better.

Dave Bohm
Bohemian Bicycles


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## chiplikestoridehisbike (Aug 8, 2007)

I am a designer and one of my previous employers had about 3 robotic mig welders. This was for a POP manufacturer but the same principles would should apply to bikes. Volume is the key to running a project on a robotic welder. If you are going to do a couple hundred of the exact same thing they make sense due to the fixturing and programing time. A robotic welder will produce welds that are as good as programmed. Robots only do what they are told, so if you have a great program it will repeat it rather accurately 1000 times as well as repeating a bad program just as many times. Robots offer repeatability and the ability to do the same task with out smoke breaks, sick time etc. They are just a tool that when correctly applied can save money and when incorrectly applied can cost you money. A company doing a lot of custom frames would probably be foolish to robotic weld all of their frames. A company doing five sizes fit all frames may be better able to control/reduce manufacturing costs and increase profits.


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## disease (Nov 27, 2007)

pvd said:


> You do understand that aluminum welding is far more difficult that steel welding? That machine could do thin steel blindfolded. If I had a robot welder, I wouldn't waste a second working with steel. Steel makes you far less money, it costs you way too much to make a bike light, and aluminum bikes are better performing.
> 
> Why are people so hung up on steel?


Again, I am not a welder. I had assumed that aluminum is easier to weld than thin walled steel.

I disagree with your statement about aluminum bikes being "better performing". My aluminum frame has attributes that my steel one does not have, and vice versa. Neither one is "better performing" in my opinion.

I am not interested in arguing the merits of steel versus aluminum. I am simply interested in the potential of robotic welders for various bicycle frame materials. The robotic welder in the Merida factory photo is shown welding aluminum. I am just curious about the potential to weld steel with the same technology.


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## jroland (Dec 17, 2008)

i dont think there is a big diff


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