# Eric Luna comparing one of his bikes to a Levo



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

I found this interesting, primarily because he's coming at this not as a bike guy, which he isn't, he's an ebike guy. And how he views the US vs EU ebike market/regs, which he doesn't really care about. And, obviously, he's trying to sell his ebikes in a crowded market and the Levo et al are the competition.






He's also ambitious, coming out with this:

https://lunacycle.com/luna-apex/

I'd be curious to see how it rides, since I've yet to see anyone at Luna demonstrate any knowledge of bike design, geometry or handling especially off road.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

At 16:00 "...To buy a bike that's legal..." he's pointing to and talking about the Levo in contrast to the Luna. At 18:00 they mention that Matt hacked the firmware and that they would post a link on how to do that, which I don't think they actually did. And at the end a helicopter can be heard overhead and the Luna guy jokes that somebody must have called the cops on his "super illegal bike". The last 3 or 4 minutes are really interesting.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Whaaaaat!!


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Harry, thanks for the information. The biggest difference that I see is that one bike is legal on trails in some areas and one might end access. This brings up an interesting question (to me); is the "DIY" bike legal to ride in offroad areas (where trucks, motorcycles etc are permitted)? I rode a $4500 Specialized dual-suspension bike last year and, while expensive, it was a high quality blast.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Yeah, the access issue is a problem, there's a guy in Colorado Springs who says he's going to buy an apex, to ride with his mtb buddies, which wouldn't help things around here.

The differing perspective is worth noting, it's hard to argue that his bikes don't provide a much bigger bang for the buck to most people. Especially if you're not a bike geek like many of us, who can argue about the merits of the differing minutae of bike gear.


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## vadimhellbike (Mar 23, 2015)

Eric has been *very passionate about ebikes* since 2002. Due to his enthusiasm for the hobby, he has a very small markup on his products.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

'Bout what I'd expect; I'm a 3x DIY kit Luna customer. They're not perfect but easily the place to get the best value for stuff just barely legal. Of course their bread and butter is well on the wrong side of what California's AB-1096 is all about.

Having said all that Eric is straight up in saying the Luna product is more of an electric motorcycle and the Levo is more of an electric bicycle.

There's room for both IMHO; folks with biking background will lean towards Specialized and folks coming to e-bikes from the OHV world will lean toward stuff like Eric's. Look at a pie chart of outdoor recreational activities and guess who might have the larger market share? (Talking USA)


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Wow! That guy doesn't appear to know jack **** about trail riding, and even less about mountain bikes. After watching that video, I would never buy one of their products. Hell, they don't even seem to understand what they're selling.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Wow! That guy doesn't appear to know jack **** about trail riding, and even less about mountain bikes. After watching that video, I would never buy one of their products. Hell, they don't even seem to understand what they're selling.


Some of us understand him. His spectrum only slightly overlaps MTB'ing. What he doesn't know he doesn't care about; his fan base is elsewhere.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Moe Ped said:


> Some of us understand him. His spectrum only slightly overlaps MTB'ing. What he doesn't know he doesn't care about; his fan base is elsewhere.


The fact that he's selling an entire bike with absolutely no understanding of part spec, sizing, suspension or where it can be ridden tells me there isn't a lot of thought going into their products. He may know electric motors, but he knows crap about bikes. Why would anyone by something from a person who doesn't know anything about what they're selling? Maybe his customer base is clueless enough to think that some of what he said actually makes sense? I dunno...not the kind of operation that exactly fills me with confidence in their expertise.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> The fact that he's selling an entire bike with absolutely no understanding of part spec, sizing, suspension or where it can be ridden tells me there isn't a lot of thought going into their products. He may know electric motors, but he knows crap about bikes. Why would anyone by something from a person who doesn't know anything about what they're selling? Maybe his customer base is clueless enough to think that some of what he said actually makes sense? I dunno...not the kind of operation that exactly fills me with confidence in their expertise.


I suspect his eventual downfall will be with the CPSC or the DOT; from what I can see he's selling "e-bikes" that wouldn't pass the rules of either agency. Although in not-so-fine-print Luna does advise that these bikes are not for road use and the implication is for private property usage only. (wink wink nudge nudge)

I wonder how he's insured? Ticket to China?

Still; the DIY components are a good deal if raw power is the metric; ballpark 1/3 the cost for 3X the power.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

slapheadmofo said:


> The fact that he's selling an entire bike with absolutely no understanding of part spec, sizing, suspension or where it can be ridden tells me there isn't a lot of thought going into their products. He may know electric motors, but he knows crap about bikes. Why would anyone by something from a person who doesn't know anything about what they're selling? Maybe his customer base is clueless enough to think that some of what he said actually makes sense? I dunno...not the kind of operation that exactly fills me with confidence in their expertise.


He knows a lot about ebike motors and how to get the most out of them, which is where his market lies. There are lot of people who are interested in ebikes who judge them based solely on that, how they can go the farthest and fastest with the least amount of effort, who also don't have a clue about bikes. While it's a perspective I don't share, who is to say theirs is wrong? Aside from the legality issues obviously, because to them, if it looks like a bike, it must be a bike. Some of the most heated debates on ES are why a Walmart donor bike is just as good as anything more expensive.

While his company is the most visible, there are others that are getting into the >750w "emtb" game with the Bafang Ultra motor selling cheap chinese bikes with plenty of power. The Ultra, while being rated at 750w/1000w, can be run at 2500w, which won't go unnoticed. And, it seems Bafang is trying to beat the Bosch/Brose/Yamaha motors at their own game, at least in W/$. I'm sure they're working on something lighter and more refined as we speak.

BAFANG | Motor | MM G510.750/1000

https://shop.m2sbikes.com/products/dual-sport-ultra-750-watt-bafang-ultra-motor

https://www.biktrix.com/products/juggernaut-mx?variant=43607281429


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I've got no beefs with his motor or battery knowledge. The rest was pretty silly though.
"It's like a Corvette". No, it's more like you jammed a big motor into a Camry.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

For the cost of a Levo a dude can set up a family of 4 with e-bikes using Luna stuff "to give e-biking a try". Anything wrong with that?

How about the dude that wants to get his float tube up to a lake to do some fishing?

Or ditch the car and do beer runs for his rugby team with a cargo (e)-bike?

Many things where a top o' the line MTB is not necessary.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Nothing wrong with any of that.
I think they should probably stay away from the side-by-side comparisons though.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Levo vs. Luna? Whaaaaat!


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

To be fair, Eric is responsible for lowering prices on DIY mid-drives and batteries IMO; they were higher when he entered the market and dropped them. Also, seems like many of the ES crowd aren't "bike guys". I've received good products and service from Luna.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Gutch said:


> Levo vs. Luna? Whaaaaat!


Compared with regular MTB's they're both clunkers. Raw power Luna wins hands down. Hella cheaper too.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Bike company vs. motor company? Stumpjumper Geo was dialed first, not an afterthought. I'm all for entrepreneurs, no beef for him making his buck, just like Specialized.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

Making the comparison (or complaining about the comparison) between Specialized and Luna e-bikes is much like the "Snap-on tools" vs "Craftsman tools" argument that can be a topic anytime 2 or more (auto) mechanics gather together.

No right answer.

If one is a pro mechanic then Snap-on (or Proto or Mac or...) is probably the best choice; a shade tree mechanic may do better with Craftsman.

And then you have wannabe pro mechanics who buy top-of-the-line tools just for snob appeal.

MTB's (e-MTB's) are much the same way in regards to snobbery...


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Right...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I would like to buy my tools from a company that at least appear to know which end of the hammer you use to hit things with. 

"The 27.5 tire is almost as tall as the 3" tire, and it's all over here near the Horst System heheheh....slurp...sniff...and you probably expect the bike to hold up and have some warranty coverage too hahahahah...sniff...slurp..."

I dunno, doesn't exactly fill me up with consumer confidence.


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## Phantastic79 (Apr 5, 2017)

Moe Ped said:


> Making the comparison (or complaining about the comparison) between Specialized and Luna e-bikes is much like the "Snap-on tools" vs "Craftsman tools" argument that can be a topic anytime 2 or more (auto) mechanics gather together.
> No right answer.
> 
> If one is a pro mechanic then Snap-on (or Proto or Mac or...) is probably the best choice; a shade tree mechanic may do better with Craftsman.
> ...


I have met a few dozen mechanics and a few super shady, disassemble a tranny in an apartment carport mechanics. All of them use snap-on, mac, etc. I have litterally never met a mechanic that makes a living repairing cars use consumer grade tools. Not saying it doesn't exists but I've never seen it.

On the other side I have a Luna motor custom fitted to my SC V10 and I use a backpack battery. I like it just fine and was considering finding a used Levo, but honestly I've been riding my new 20lb tallboy exclusively the last few weeks and it's freaking awesome.

I like having both ends of the spectrum. Super light FS MTB and the most capable heavy duty Ebike. They are so different and give you the best of both worlds.

I'm still curious if a Levo would be a nice in between bike to have, may need to test ride one someday.

2012 eV10


http://imgur.com/jJDJb


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