# AM Hardtail curious, coming from a XC FS



## damdam5 (Mar 28, 2020)

Howdy!

I am starting to wonder about adding a hardtail to my FS (2018 Santa Cruz Blur over forked with 120 front travel). My typical ride is a "lunch ride" type of deal, I ride a mix of gravel and flat single track to get to the hill, but then once there it's fairly rooty and rocky technical single track with a lot of up and down. It's a little over an hour, just shy of 8 miles (1.5 to get to the hill) and about 1000 ft of ascent / descent. I have recently started going more "enduro" with the bike: heavier tires (DHF/Aggressor) and flats instead of clipless. I find that its a little more fun this way even if less efficient pedaling wise, especially on corners and downhill. Don't get me wrong, I freaking love my Blur, but since my ride is relatively short I am thinking a XC race bike may not be the best choice for the types of riding I do. I am 42 and not getting any younger but I think I could learn to use my legs a good bit to lessen the body blows of losing the full squish on my shorter rides. I also would like to learn how to properly bunny hop (now that I can't just lift up on my clipless pedals, haha) and manual, etc. I think a hardtail (esp if 27.5) may also aid in that mission.

I have started looking around at "rowdy" hardtails, like the Chromag Stylus or Rootdown. I like the dampening idea behind steel, but dang they can be pretty heavy for a hard tail. These can be pretty hard to find, so I thought I'd poll the users here to see what they think of Chromag and other offerings for someone in my situation with an itch to try to simplify with a hard tail. I built the Blur from the frame so I will probably look for a frame only at first unless a complete package comes along used at a good price, could be a fun Fall / Winter project. I wonder about ascending on the Stylus which looks a little more "fun" on the downhills, but I think the Rootdown may ultimately be a better single quiver bike (if I decided to stick to one bike) since it can go 29" and is closer to the XC type bikes I am used to. But I could just be talking out of my ass as I know little about these so far.

Thanks!


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

I recommend checking out Hardtail Party on Youtube. He does a good job reviewing a lot of hardtails.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

It's not only the material that makes a frame stiffer or more compliant. The design is more important IMO. There are a lot of good options out there these days. And I agree that the Hardtail Party YouTube channel is worth a watch while you're considering.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Given the riding you describe, I don't think I'd go full rowdy with the bike selection. I'd probably be looking at more versatile bikes, probably with 120-140mm of fork travel, rather than stuff focusing on more suspension. Timberjack, Chameleon, etc should be on your list. I got a used GG Pedalhead frame awhile ago and went with a 140mm fork on it (upper end of the mfr recommendations for this frame). 

Honestly, I'd spend some time getting comfortable with flat pedals before diving into specific skills with them. If you've got some ingrained habits with clipless pedals, you're going to need to do some un-learning, or at least re-learning, and going too far too fast is likely to result in some nasty shin strikes. Ryan Leech has a course dedicated to transitioning over to platform pedals and I'd recommend working on that before focusing on bunny hops and manuals.


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

damdam5 said:


> Howdy!
> 
> I am starting to wonder about adding a hardtail to my FS (2018 Santa Cruz Blur over forked with 120 front travel). My typical ride is a "lunch ride" type of deal, I ride a mix of gravel and flat single track to get to the hill, but then once there it's fairly rooty and rocky technical single track with a lot of up and down. It's a little over an hour, just shy of 8 miles (1.5 to get to the hill) and about 1000 ft of ascent / descent. I have recently started going more "enduro" with the bike: heavier tires (DHF/Aggressor) and flats instead of clipless. I find that its a little more fun this way even if less efficient pedaling wise, especially on corners and downhill. Don't get me wrong, I freaking love my Blur, but since my ride is relatively short I am thinking a XC race bike may not be the best choice for the types of riding I do. I am 42 and not getting any younger but I think I could learn to use my legs a good bit to lessen the body blows of losing the full squish on my shorter rides. I also would like to learn how to properly bunny hop (now that I can't just lift up on my clipless pedals, haha) and manual, etc. I think a hardtail (esp if 27.5) may also aid in that mission.
> 
> ...


Check out this thread...very similar topic and valuable responses...









Super slack HTs... Real world feedback?


Just to be clear with it all the way back it can fit 2.8 no issues or is it just certain 2.8s? There's quite a bit of clearance with the dropouts all of the way back. The 2.8 McFly the completes are specced with are pretty chunky, I imagine most if not all 2.8s will fit.




www.mtbr.com


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I'd even add the Trek Roscoe (7 and up) to that list. Plus probably the RSD Sergeant, Middlechild, Banshee Paradox, etc...

You know, staying just this side of the hyper-aggressive hardtails.


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## damdam5 (Mar 28, 2020)

Harold said:


> If you've got some ingrained habits with clipless pedals, you're going to need to do some un-learning, or at least re-learning, and going too far too fast is likely to result in some nasty shin strikes.


Hahaha, yep, in that first week or 2 just jumping logs at speed cost me some turf toe and bloody calves. The calf took about 2 months to stop scabbing and I think those scars are there for good! The kids thought I had been attacked by a wolf, lol.

Good advice, yeah I don't need a ton of travel, 140 seems like plenty, more the slackness that I was focused on in looking around, but I will check out all these resources like Hardtail Party, etc.. and see what I can learn.


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## damdam5 (Mar 28, 2020)

DGUSMC said:


> Check out this thread...very similar topic and valuable responses...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for pointing that out, I was just looking at that one!


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

I can only say that my aluminum ‘15 SC Chameleon kicks my old back to the curb if ridden too much.
Was using it 2-3 times a week as a gravel bike for months and my back was not having it.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

acer66 said:


> I can only say that my aluminum '15 SC Chameleon kicks my old back to the curb if ridden too much.
> Was using it 2-3 times a week as a gravel bike for months and my back was not having it.


Gah, I so don't want to hear that right now. I love riding my hardtail, but managed to screw my back up pretty badly last week.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

acer66 said:


> I can only say that my aluminum '15 SC Chameleon kicks my old back to the curb if ridden too much.
> Was using it 2-3 times a week as a gravel bike for months and my back was not having it.


I could buy it if you have a bad back and were using the bike on mtb trails. But on gravel? If that's the case, it sounds to me like you've got deeper issues.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

dysfunction said:


> Gah, I so don't want to hear that right now. I love riding my hardtail, but managed to screw my back up pretty badly last week.


Sorry to hear that, I did not put two and two together and blamed the new mattress and kept riding with growing back pain until I could not tolerate it anymore.
I even had to stretch while riding to keep riding in the end.

I did some extensive lower back exercises and even after weeks I can only ride my fully right now and anything but flow trail or gravel is duly noted by my back.

Anyway, enough about me I hope you heal up soon.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

Harold said:


> I could buy it if you have a bad back and were using the bike on mtb trails. But on gravel? If that's the case, it sounds to me like you've got deeper issues.


Not just yet and I do not hope so.
I was was working on my body positions riding gravel and one thing I did was to put as little weight on my hands so that might have amplified the issue of riding an aluminum am ht.


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

dysfunction said:


> Gah, I so don't want to hear that right now. I love riding my hardtail, but managed to screw my back up pretty badly last week.


I had real back problems (as well as cornering problems) on both my hardtail and FS until I finally started focusing on flexibility. Turns out old issues in my hips (decades of squats and then carrying a pack in the sandbox) did not resolve until some dedicated deep tissue therapy and then a bunch of foundation/core training. My guess is that much of what people experience as "hardtail beating" is really due to insufficient flexibility (and of course poor line choices).

I bomb hard stuff now for good durations regularly with no back issues on the HT and my God what a difference being able to corner in both directions makes!


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## monsterinthewoods (Jul 13, 2021)

Since you do the same trail most of the time, I would see if you could get your hands on a slack geometry bike to try out on that section of trail before you buy one. The thing with a slacker bike is that it's a ton of fun when you're riding fast but can become significantly unfun when riding slow. I have a couple of trails that I really like on my XC bike and really don't enjoy on my all-mountain because slowly picking my way through a narrow trail becomes pretty burdensome on a less agile bike.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

DGUSMC said:


> I had real back problems (as well as cornering problems) on both my hardtail and FS until I finally started focusing on flexibility. Turns out old issues in my hips (decades of squats and then carrying a pack in the sandbox) did not resolve until some dedicated deep tissue therapy and then a bunch of foundation/core training.  My guess is that much of what people experience as "hardtail beating" is really due to insufficient flexibility (and of course poor line choices).
> 
> I bomb hard stuff now for good durations regularly with no back issues on the HT and my God what a difference being able to corner in both directions makes!


My understanding is that a lot of back trouble ppl have traces back to deficiencies in their core from being too sedentary in other parts of their lives. The only soreness I've ever had from riding my hardtail (on everything from gravel to some pretty rowdy stuff) is muscle soreness. The only times I've had any other type of soreness on my bike, it's been traceable to a fit issue of some sort or another.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

DGUSMC said:


> I had real back problems (as well as cornering problems) on both my hardtail and FS until I finally started focusing on flexibility. Turns out old issues in my hips (decades of squats and then carrying a pack in the sandbox) did not resolve until some dedicated deep tissue therapy and then a bunch of foundation/core training. My guess is that much of what people experience as "hardtail beating" is really due to insufficient flexibility (and of course poor line choices).
> 
> I bomb hard stuff now for good durations regularly with no back issues on the HT and my God what a difference being able to corner in both directions makes!


I landed on my hip and knocked my pelvis out of alignment. Already have torn (and keep working on) my hip flexors and hip mobility. But right now, man, there's no way I could even ride my big bike. I'm hoping that I don't have continued issues moving forward from this injury. Getting older sucks.


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## dfuzz (Feb 27, 2015)

Have been riding 2016 Specialized Fuse, upgraded w/ aftermarket Pike 140mm on the front after the stock shock crapped out. I love this bike. The bigger tires make a huge difference. Full disclosure: I'm 56, have been riding mtbs since 1984 (had one of the first Stumpjumpers sold in Seattle), have ridden every kind of bike, fave bike ever was a 2000 Rocky Mountain Blizzard (Reynolds 853 steel), which I would still be riding if it could take discs and 27.5 wheels. I am skinny and fit and still like to go fast on rough downhills. On the Fuse and w/ no pads and an XC/road helmet, I not uncommonly pass people in full pads and full-face helmets on the downhills. 

The idea that a hardtail "hurts your back" is nonsense, esp. as regards downhill rough/gnarly stuff, in which case even on a FS you are on your feet. Gnarly downhills are the place where the slack hardtail w/ big tires and good fork penalizes me the LEAST. Hardtail is PERFECT for your 60-90 min. lunch ride. Where a hardtail DOES beat/eat you up is on longer rides over rocky and rooty terrain...you get worked much more than you would on a FS because you are subconsciously constantly lifting your butt off the saddle to unweight over small obstacles. When I do 90+ min. rides here in the rocky and rooty PNW, I find myself fantasizing about buying a FS. If I only rode where it's smooth -- e.g., my favorite place to ride, Sun Valley/Ketchum area -- I would have no need ever for a FS. Don't own one right now. 

Also...flats are fun!


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

dfuzz said:


> The idea that a hardtail "hurts your back" is nonsense, esp. as regards downhill rough/gnarly stuff, in which case even on a FS you are on your feet. Gnarly downhills are the place where the slack hardtail w/ big tires and good fork penalizes me the LEAST. Hardtail is PERFECT for your 60-90 min. lunch ride. Where a hardtail DOES beat/eat you up is on longer rides over rocky and rooty terrain...you get worked much more than you would on a FS because you are subconsciously constantly lifting your butt off the saddle to unweight over small obstacles. When I do 90+ min. rides here in the rocky and rooty PNW, I find myself fantasizing about buying a FS. If I only rode where it's smooth -- e.g., my favorite place to ride, Sun Valley/Ketchum area -- I would have no need ever for a FS. Don't own one right now.
> 
> Also...flats are fun!


I agree with this. For me the one place that I majorly regret having a hardtail is on longer sections of flat or not very steep climbing trails that have a lot of rocks and rocks. The kind of trails where you don't want to be standing the whole time but sitting on a hardtail beats you up. Trails like that are ones I either avoid or wish I really had a full sus on.


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

I have been looking to add a HT back into my lineup for the entire summer. I have all the parts I need sitting around waiting for a frame. Obviously availability is terrible right now. 

I was pretty well set on getting another Salsa Timberjack frame to replace the one that I gave to my daughter. But after looking around more, I pulled the trigger on an RSD Middlechild V2 frame. 

I was hoping to get it in before I leave for a biking trip in a few weeks, but I doubt that's going to happen.


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## damdam5 (Mar 28, 2020)

93EXCivic said:


> I agree with this. For me the one place that I majorly regret having a hardtail is on longer sections of flat or not very steep climbing trails that have a lot of rocks and rocks. The kind of trails where you don't want to be standing the whole time but sitting on a hardtail beats you up. Trails like that are ones I either avoid or wish I really had a full sus on.


This is a good point, believe it or not I had not really thought about this. I'm going to keep this in mind on my ride today, lol. But given the total duration of my average ride I don't think this is probably that big a deal, I just think it's probably the case that I am a bit spoiled in the "easy going" rocky/rooty sections.


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## dfuzz (Feb 27, 2015)

damdam5 said:


> This is a good point, believe it or not I had not really thought about this. I'm going to keep this in mind on my ride today, lol. But given the total duration of my average ride I don't think this is probably that big a deal, I just think it's probably the case that I am a bit spoiled in the "easy going" rocky/rooty sections.


This is precisely it. On rolling terrain and long climbs with rough surfaces, the hardtail is more work. I only notice it on longer rides, after 90 or more minutes.

A great example from the Seattle area is a longer ride on Tiger Mountain. If I do a long climb to the top and then link together a number of the fun descents on the east side, that last traverse back to the parking lot on the NW Timber Trail has me wishing for a FS every time. But most of my rides are shorter than that, and it's sloppy and muddy here most of the year, and I'm too lazy to deal with maintaining and tuning a FS, so I am perfectly happy on my bike. Most of my longer rides are places where the trails are smoother, as close as just over the crest of the Cascades on the eastern side.


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## SlipperyToad (Aug 18, 2010)

Last year I wanted to add a hardtail to my quiver for the exact kind of rides you're talking about, so I found a Transition Vanquish frame and built one up. It was a fun bike to ride, but after the novelty wore off, I found myself back on my FS trailbike for 90% of my rides. I couldn't justify having the bike built up for that little riding, so I stripped the parts for another project and the frame sits in a box in the basement right now. It was a rocket up and 9/10 as fast down as a similar FS bike. Great for short rides, but once I got to about 90 minutes I always found myself wishing I took a different bike.


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## angieri918 (Apr 1, 2020)

I just built up a Commencal Meta HT frame using old spare parts laying around. My thoughts were that I could use it as a backup or if a family member or friend wants to go ride with me then I’ll have a bike for them. My daily driver is a SC Hightower V2 with Cascade link. 
My first ride on the HT was so much fun. I wasblown away just how capable this thing is. I guess the biggervolume tires and inserts help dampen things down quite a bit. I’m still experimenting with which inserts I like beat but they are DEFINITELY a necessity in the rear at least. The bike is a blast on jumps and smooth flow lines. If you’re riding places that are high speeds then I would not recommend a hardtail. They’re fun and all but when the speeds start picking up things get hairy real quick like. Here’s a pic of my Meta


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## erichunt (Aug 12, 2021)

Could take a look at Prophecy Bikes. They are a small outlet but have a very value based hardtail with decent components. The geometry works well too with a 140 fork.

Prophecy Cycles LLC - Mountain Bike, Mountain Bike, Bicycle, Mtb

Here's my setup:


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## dsciulli19 (Apr 14, 2014)

The only thing you need to know about an AM hardtail is that you need one! + 1 for watching some reviews on youtube channel Hardtail Party.

I have no complaints about my Rootdown after having ridden only full suspension for almost 10 years. In fact, I usually reach for it first over my FS bike these days. It seems like you've gotten some good advice in this thread so far, pick something that has aggressive geometry, but maybe not quite as SUPER aggressive as the Kona Honzo ESD.

-DS


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## damdam5 (Mar 28, 2020)

Thanks for all the feedback, this is great!

Still early on in the research process, but I'm finding the Stanton Sherpa interesting since its built around a 120mm fork and 29er wheels so I think I could literally swap everything from my Blur onto it just to try things out. If its no good, I think I could easily sell a niche frame like that. The Gen 3 looks pretty slack since the numbers are assuming 25% sag on a 120mm fork (67), which according to Hard Tail Party man is closer to 65ish apples to apples. I think my Blur is about 68 due to the over forking. I still need to learn a lot more about the other geometry figures as well, but I do hear a ton about HTA. My current reach is probably 455 and I don't think I'd want to go much longer, I am just shy of 5'10". I liked the Chromags since offer a M/L.

Since before the Blur I had a 100mm Specialized Epic from 2005, 120mm is the largest travel fork I've ever ridden, so not sure what going from 120 to 140 would be like but this seems like a reasonable and low risk way to go about giving this HT thing a go. Part of this exercise is just curiosity into a different animal so maybe the Sherpa is too XC to fit the bill there, not sure. I think I'll be looking for a while longer before really settling on things.


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

In geo charts, pay close attention to seat tube angle (STA) as well. Has a huge impact on how a bike will feel while pedaling. 

You can get away with a larger reach number with a steeper STA since your effective seated position will move you closer to the bars. Steeper STA feels good climbing and descending, but can put more pressure on your hands on long flat rides. Steeper STA allow designers to stretch the front center of the bike, making them more stable at speed and easier to ride "in" the bike rather than "over" the bike, again great for descending and cornering.


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## looks easy from here (Apr 16, 2019)

damdam5 said:


> maybe the Sherpa is too XC to fit the bill there, not sure.


I don't think you'd have a problem with that at all. My hardtail's geo is very close to the Sherpa's, and it feels great taking it down all sorts of silly, steep, chunky nonsense without feeling like a boat going around tight corners, and I don't consider myself a particularly strong rider. Fwiw, it started life with a hta of 68°(unsagged), and that was notably less enjoyable pointed down, and not any better pointed up. And if you get something like the Sherpa then down the road decide you wish it was more aggressive there are plenty of ways to slack it out.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

It's not clear to me why you want an AM hardtail. If you're wanting something more aggressive but still efficient then you're better off getting a modern short travel FS trail bike (Tallboy, Spur, Ripley). My Tallboy is both more efficient (especially on longer rides) and way more capable than my AM hardtail was. Steel hardtails aren't even light. IMO, the real reasons to get an AM hardtail are because they're fun or because of budget constraints. Performance wise they don't make sense.


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## damdam5 (Mar 28, 2020)

jeremy3220 said:


> real reasons to get an AM hardtail are because they're fun


Yes, this is it! I think it may be more fun, especially on 60 minute rides. I can bomb down all the local trails with the roots and rock gardens on the Blur I have now. It's only 100mm rear travel but I did swap out the rear shock to a Mara Inline which seemed to improve its "capability" a good bit. I was popping spokes and slashing tires a lot over the summer and started getting a little skittish that I could damage this short travel XC bike with all the mashing, and I did start eyeing the tallboy a bit, I'll give you that. But now I am thinking of going in a different direction, for the fun factor mainly.

Over the summer, I got rid of the light tires (XR4/XR3) -> (DFR/Aggressor) and that was a lot more fun, even if my speed dropped a bit and the climbs got harder. Same thing happened when I went to flats 2 weeks later, got slower climbing but it was even more fun and challenging. Now I am almost as fast as I was with the clipless and light tires on the climbs, but I don't care too much about the PR's as much as just having as much fun in one hour as I can.

These days I just get out for the lunch ride 60 - 75 mins and then on some 90 min super mellow rides with my 7 and 10 year old's practice at their local club. While I enjoy bombing down the techy stuff I think I may like the challenge of doing it on a hardtail even more. Also kinda interested in the zippyness and response to pedaling without that rear squish. All I can do is try and see how it fits, won't be rushing out to sell the FS.


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## DGUSMC (Jan 29, 2021)

jeremy3220 said:


> It's not clear to me why you want an AM hardtail. If you're wanting something more aggressive but still efficient then you're better off getting a modern short travel FS trail bike (Tallboy, Spur, Ripley). My Tallboy is both more efficient (especially on longer rides) and way more capable than my AM hardtail was. Steel hardtails aren't even light. IMO, the real reasons to get an AM hardtail are because they're fun or because of budget constraints. Performance wise they don't make sense.


If someone has never experienced how a good steel hardtail feels when railing/pumping a corner, pushing off a lip, rolling a compression etc, I would suggest they may not yet have an appropriately complete definition of either performance or fun.


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## dsciulli19 (Apr 14, 2014)

jeremy3220 said:


> IMO, the real reasons to get an AM hardtail are because they're fun.


They're fun, simple, and force you to stay honest with your riding. No moving linkage, no bearings, no BS.

Am I as fast downhill as I could be on a hardtail? No. Do I need to run a heavier casing rear tire? Yes. But it is a hell of a good time.

-DS


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

I absolutely love my Ripley, but I still really miss having a HT to ride, especially when I'm on less chunky trails out with my kids. 

It's also really nice to have an extra bike for my wife to be able to ride when she goes on trails with me a few times a year. 

On the right trails, nothing beats the zippy, efficient drive of a good HT.


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## damdam5 (Mar 28, 2020)

Thanks for all the feedback, I've been digging into the all the geometries and reviews. I am surprised just how many slack modern steel hardtails are out there. Seems like a ton are coming out of the UK. Hardtail party man has his hands full. I am leaning towards a Pipedream Sirius 5, just like the Sherpa theory I can pretty much swap all the components over from the Blur to give it a go. The reach is very similar to my Large Blur looks less cramped than the Sherpa and the seat tube is the right diameter for my current dropper, whereas the Sherpa is a smaller diameter.


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