# Does anyone conceal carry when they ride?



## h20-50 (Dec 15, 2010)

First off this is an honest question that I'm looking for legitimate answers too and not an anti gun speech.

Backstory, a girl was just murdered in the park that I ride everyday. She was stabbed to death out in the open in the most random, violent and cruel way. The killer is still on the loose. I grew up on these trails and my parents house backs up to them so I have been riding these trails since I was 10 years old and know them extremely well.

Lately I have been hearing stories about guys posing as injured on the trails and stealing bikes when you stop to help them out. That got me thinking but this murder put it all over the top. I've seen suspicious things back there, and by no means is it an unsafe place IMO, I wouldn't hesitate to ride alone and never have, but lately I've been thinking it wouldn't be a bad idea to be armed just in case. Let's face it. There are some crazy folks out there and you never know.

So my question is to those who do carry how do you go about it safely? A loaded gun in a backpack can be a time bomb especially if you ride hard,fast and hit everything in sight. Is there a safe way to carry and ride? A holster you might recommend? A place to store your weapon for quick access? 

This is an honest question so please if you disagree I don't need to hear your opinions, I just want advice so I can decide how I can carry, if at all, responsibly and safely.


----------



## Slash5 (Nov 27, 2011)

Holy crap, another one of these. Do a search, there are pages and pages of this. Don't need another one.


----------



## BrentP (Jul 6, 2007)

Slash5 said:


> Holy crap, another one of these. Do a search, there are pages and pages of this. Don't need another one.


Yup!


----------



## h20-50 (Dec 15, 2010)

Slash5 said:


> Holy crap, another one of these. Do a search, there are pages and pages of this. Don't need another one.





BrentP said:


> Yup!


Thanks for the input and I did search and read them. Feel free to go onto other threads if you don't have any useful information to offer.


----------



## hey_poolboy (Jul 16, 2012)

I've thought about it and just can't think of a good way/place to put a holster. If it's in a place that feels secure it is in my way. If it's in a place out of the way it doesn't feel very secure. 
I can't remember the name of it, but someone makes a chest holster that goes on a lot like a woman's bra and holds the gun against your chest. You have to reach down or up the front of your shirt to obtain the weapon. Not ideal, and you can't leave your jersey unzipped if it's hot, but it's an alternative.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


----------



## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

h20-50 said:


> ...So my question is to those who do carry how do you go about it safely? A loaded gun in a backpack can be a time bomb especially if you ride hard,fast and hit everything in sight. Is there a safe way to carry and ride? A holster you might recommend? A place to store your weapon for quick access?...


IMO, you need to learn more about guns and decide these things for yourself. What state a gun is safe to carry in and what it will tolerate without discharging depends entirely on its function, design of the mechanism and safeties. For example, any gun without a round under the hammer cannot fire accidentally, except if it's a double action revolver, has a live round in the next chamber, and the trigger is somehow pulled through the entire double action stroke, which is pretty much impossible if it's carried in a holster that covers the trigger guard.

A good concealed carry course and/or related books will cover all these things. The NRA has many good books on the subject. Also, inquire at your LGS (local gun store).


----------



## Bailey44 (Dec 30, 2010)

I carry my baby Glock on a lot of my rides. 

Like Lone Ranger stated, learn more and you decide.


----------



## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

I open carry on night rides and when going remote.


----------



## Undies (Aug 25, 2005)

hey_poolboy said:


> I can't remember the name of it, but someone makes a chest holster that goes on a lot like a woman's bra and holds the gun against your chest. You have to reach down or up the front of your shirt to obtain the weapon. Not ideal, and you can't leave your jersey unzipped if it's hot, but it's an alternative.


I'd be worried about sweating all over the gun and damaging it. Yes, I know, cleaning, etc. But I sweat a lot.

I've thought about carrying in a frame bag, but it wouldn't be easily accessible which sort of defeats the whole point.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Numerous threads on this subject and here's one of the shorter ones. Read on....
http://forums.mtbr.com/passion/my-other-passion-post-yours-too-721118.html?highlight=Guns

http://forums.mtbr.com/general-disc...ck-protection-them-883936.html?highlight=Guns

I personally would rather spend the rest of my life outside of prison so I don't carry. If you have it the chances are high you will use it and be sorry you did. I can see if you ride in Grizzly bear country but even then the chances of you being able to get to it in time to defend yourself are very slim.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

If you have to ask how..........


----------



## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Cleaning most handguns is not hard. I do more damage to my shoulder holster from sweat. Get a high quality gun like a Berretta or FN.


----------



## Brockwan (Aug 6, 2013)

Search button for the win. Here come the idiots on the horizon.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)




----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Ha,ha those dern varmints.


----------



## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

Almost every ride, some places I cant carry so it gets left behind. Not everyone has primo riding around where everyone on the trail is a saint. Seeing homeless camp's, people dealing drug's cause the trail's are between developements, or just the story's of people getting beat up or worst for some pocket change and a bike.

You have to do research on what fit's you and your firearm of choice.


----------



## Cobretti (May 23, 2005)

I always carry a concealed weapon when I ride. But it's not a gun or a knife. Here's a hint - it's attached to my body.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Cobretti said:


> I always carry a concealed weapon when I ride. But it's not a gun or a knife. Here's a hint - it's attached to my body.


And very small for easy access.
Lucky you!


----------



## h20-50 (Dec 15, 2010)

Lone Rager said:


> IMO, you need to learn more about guns and decide these things for yourself. What state a gun is safe to carry in and what it will tolerate without discharging depends entirely on its function, design of the mechanism and safeties. For example, any gun without a round under the hammer cannot fire accidentally, except if it's a double action revolver, has a live round in the next chamber, and the trigger is somehow pulled through the entire double action stroke, which is pretty much impossible if it's carried in a holster that covers the trigger guard.
> 
> A good concealed carry course and/or related books will cover all these things. The NRA has many good books on the subject. Also, inquire at your LGS (local gun store).


I grew up on guns, used one everyday for 5 years when I was in the military, have a CHL so I think I'm pretty well versed in that area. Carrying while riding a bike is different, and I wanted to see how other people did it as they don't make an AM holster, or an XC case, or a DH strap.


----------



## tommillermn (Oct 24, 2005)

I woman I work with has a permit and carries when she rides alone. She usually has it in its holster in her jersey pocket. I did my research and opted for bear spray instead of a firearm. With it on the shoulder strap of my camelbak I can deploy it faster than a handgun, is more effective on large animals and in my opinion a better deterent against genetically challenged humans. Also, the chances of you killing yourself if it accidentally goes off are almost zero.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I carry in my camelbak. Not always but often. I also don't expect to get to it quickly but I would rather it be there if needed.


----------



## Brockwan (Aug 6, 2013)

I use bear spray... Wait.... Deja vu

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Violent crime is at record lows in America based on statistics. Depending upon how old you are, and if those statistics are true, most of America is safer than it was when you were a kid. Course that doesn't mean you shouldn't be carrying a weapon on a bike ride.


----------



## powpig2002 (Sep 13, 2009)

Undies said:


> I'd be worried about sweating all over the gun and damaging it. Yes, I know, cleaning, etc. But I sweat a lot.
> 
> I've thought about carrying in a frame bag, but it wouldn't be easily accessible which sort of defeats the whole point.


carried an m-16 and a 38 for 13 months monsoons, crawling thru paddies. deer hunted in pouring rain,snowstorms. part of carrying is cleaning. lost a cleaning brush one time. so do I brush my teeth or use my tooth brush to clean my weapons. found out a finger and tooth paste will kinda clean your teeth. but back to your question. someone mentioned bear spray on his camelback. that seems like an excellent idea. if it'll deter a bear I'm sure it would deter any animals you'll meet on your trails. I'm thinking about getting some now but may have a hard time finding it in fl.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

So of you peeps that carry (either a gun or bear spray) when you ride, how many of you have actually had to use it? Or is it just to make you feel better?


----------



## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

Brockwan said:


> I use bear spray... Wait.... Deja vu
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





Brockwan said:


> Search button for the win. Here come the idiots on the horizon.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


yep


----------



## powpig2002 (Sep 13, 2009)

006_007 said:


> So of you peeps that carry (either a gun or bear spray) when you ride, how many of you have actually had to use it? Or is it just to make you feel better?


never had to use my fire extinguisher but.......... Just to make it clear, I don't carry when I ride


----------



## aerius (Nov 20, 2010)

Cobretti said:


> I always carry a concealed weapon when I ride. But it's not a gun or a knife. Here's a hint - it's attached to my body.


Like this?


----------



## MTBMILES (Dec 27, 2007)

This is good!


----------



## NEOHIO Ray (Apr 3, 2013)

Slash5 said:


> Holy crap, another one of these. Do a search, there are pages and pages of this. Don't need another one.


Like he said, use the Search Button!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## JeffH_PA (Nov 11, 2013)

I carry sometimes, but only when I want to do some plinkin. Glock 26 fits in my saddle bag pretty nice.

There was one time I was in the mountain at twilight by myself though and I'm almost positive I had a few wild dogs screwing with me, I was wishing I had it on that ride. Creeped me out.

We call them coyotes around here, they're a pretty big problem. Friends of mine that hunt tell me they can take a deer down, although I've never heard of them going after a human, let alone on a bike.


----------



## Rick Ro$$ (Nov 3, 2013)

I carry my Glock 19 quite a bit when I ride. I put the gun in a small kydex holster and put the whole shebang thing in my Camelbak. I use the holster to keep the trigger covered since I keep one in the chamber.

Access isn't very quick, but it beats the hell out of having nothing if the need for it ever arises.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

I carry my LCP everywhere with me, even riding. I keep it in the cargo pocket of my baggies inside a holster, condition 1 at all times.


----------



## VitaVelNex (Jun 5, 2013)

I always carry a gun with me. I will never be a victim like that. Guys I work with, that very well should have been carrying, have been robbed, and in one case held at gunpoint and driven to ATM's to withdraw money. The police will rarely be there the second that you need them, it's up to you to protect yourself and your family.

I've had things go very wrong around me and I have been glad that I had a gun and others with guns around me that knew how to use them. Same reason I carry medical equipment. I don't need to preach on medical stuff, but I have had multiple people shot very close to me.

My world doesn't revolve around the "I've never used it, must not need it" line of thinking that some have. I know the reality of it all. I carry a Glock in a Raven VanGuard II inside a Hill People Gear runner's pack.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Rick Ro$$ said:


> I carry my Glock 19 quite a bit when I ride. I put the gun in a small kydex holster and put the whole shebang thing in my Camelbak. I use the holster to keep the trigger covered since I keep one in the chamber.
> 
> Access isn't very quick, but it beats the hell out of having nothing if the need for it ever arises.


So I have to ask, where the heck are you riding that there may be a need arising, and what is it exactly that you are scared of?


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

VitaVelNex said:


> I always carry a gun with me. I will never be a victim like that. Guys I work with, that very well should have been carrying, have been robbed, and in one case held at gunpoint and driven to ATM's to withdraw money. The police will rarely be there the second that you need them, it's up to you to protect yourself and your family.
> 
> I've had things go very wrong around me and I have been glad that I had a gun and others with guns around me that knew how to use them. Same reason I carry medical equipment. I don't need to preach on medical stuff, but I have had multiple people shot very close to me.
> 
> My world doesn't revolve around the "I've never used it, must not need it" line of thinking that some have. I know the reality of it all. I carry a Glock in a Raven VanGuard II inside a Hill People Gear runner's pack.


So they were riding their mountain bike, got held at gunpoint and driven to ATM's to withdraw money? Extreme biking to a whole new level - Red Bull rampage has nothing to your trails.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

powpig2002 said:


> never had to use my fire extinguisher but.......... Just to make it clear, I don't carry when I ride


You carry a fire extinguisher when you ride? I guess there is a chance you could come across a wildfire - at least that is a reason (more then any other I have heard yet)


----------



## 06HokieMTB (Apr 25, 2011)

I carry when camping. But usually for target practice.

Should you run into Yogi, bear spray is much better than a hand gun.

Chances of needing against a 2 legged predators are slim.

Then again, better to carry and not need it, than need it and end up being carried by six.


----------



## ibadfish (Apr 22, 2012)

Can't let an isolated incident scare you, plus the killer was caught. Never heard of anybody pretending to be hurt to steal anybodies bike at O.P. but you never know. If you're worried about stuff like that don't stop and help anybody out. Best way to stay out of a trouble is to avoid trouble.

Also according to SAPD O.P. is the safest park in the city and data shows a 35% decrease in violent crimes in city parks over the last two years. Carrying a gun just in case around a park with many others and houses along a lot of the trails seems like it might be asking for more trouble than it's worth. What if you started popping off shots and hit an innocent bystander out for a jog, somebody hanging out in their back yard, biking on the trails, etc. It's a big park but not that big. A stray bullet could unintentionally cause more harm than good. If you're worried about your safety carry a knife. I think you should also consider the safety of others before carrying out on the trails.

Its not like the park is on a seedy side of town either. The park is surrounded by nice neighborhoods and an influential college. Yes there will be things that happen, that's just life but I've never felt threatened enough to need a gun in O.P.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

If statistics are any indication, you should conceal and carry around friends, neighbors, and family members because the greatest likelihood of personal harm will come from someone you know. Statistics like the ones below are why I was packing this holiday season. Sure, the chances I'd need a weapon at the Thanksgiving dinner table are slim, but better to not end up a number. And Christmas parties? Better to carry and not need it because my Auntie gets all crazy on egg nog:

_In 2010, strangers committed about 38% of nonfatal violent crimes, including rape/sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault, and simple assault.

From 1993 to 2008, among homicides reported to the FBI for which the victim-offender relationship was known, between 21% and 27% of homicides were committed by strangers and between 73% and 79% were committed by offenders known to the victims._


----------



## VitaVelNex (Jun 5, 2013)

006_007 said:


> So they were riding their mountain bike, got held at gunpoint and driven to ATM's to withdraw money? Extreme biking to a whole new level - Red Bull rampage has nothing to your trails.


No they weren't riding their bike, I was giving examples of things going bad. Just because I haven't needed it on any previous rides, doesn't mean I might not need it in the future. I have never needed the spare quart of oil I keep in my vehicle just in case. I never needed my spare tire until one day on the highway driving to work, and I kept that around for 5 years before it came of use.

If you don't feel the need or think its dumb to carry a weapon because someone didn't need it mountain biking, then that's fine. That's you're decision. I'm a cop in a larger city and have seen completely innocent people murdered, raped, robbed, paralyzed, whatever who were just minding their own business doing things they had enjoyed hundreds of times.

Mountain bike trails are generally around wooded areas, a lot of meth labs are also secluded in these areas. I've dealt with marijuana grow fields with camps in wooded areas, just a 100 yards away from parks. A smaller agency around me tried stopping a kid in a car on Christmas or so, kid shot at the cop, took off in the car, and hid in nearby woods. They eventually found him, and had a gun fight with him where two cops were shot and the kid was killed. This was near a state park with a lot of trails. Chris Dorner also hid in the woods, where I'm sure people have mountain biked before.

I have also never needed my helmet mountain biking, but I wear it.

The reality is, there are people out there that do not care at all about you, who you'd leave behind, what your plans were after riding, nothing. They simply want what you have because they want more, or to score more dope. There are plenty of cases of completely random acts of violence and the mindset of "I've never needed X while doing Y, so I must not need X" is ignorant.


----------



## cobba (Apr 5, 2007)

h20-50 said:


> The killer is still on the loose.


If it happened at your favourite trail Schnabel Park, the killer has been caught.

http://www.kens5.com/news/SAPD-Man-arrested-in-connection-with-womans-death-at-OP-Schnabel-Park-238711121.html


----------



## Gumbi4Prez (Jan 2, 2014)

Think if I needed to pack heat while riding. I'd be finding a different place to live and ride.

In bear and mtn lion country. I carry bear spray.


----------



## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

With the lack of privacy these days, and the way information can be used against you, I'm sure as hell not going to state whether I carry a gun with me or not.


----------



## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

006_007 said:


> So I have to ask, where the heck are you riding that there may be a need arising, and what is it exactly that you are scared of?


The isolated back woods of Louisiana. Not that scared. Just reasonably cautious. I'll go out of my way to avoid trouble, will never pick a fight, am affable and pleasant to everyone but one day I may get into a situation where talking or fleeing is impossible.

Many of you must lead very sheltered lives or never leave your gated communities if you think trouble won't find you because you mind your own business.

My M9 isn't heavy, it's easy to clean. Holds 15 rounds. There is no penalty for carrying it. Not even breaking any laws because I open carry.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I carry my .44 in my frame bag when I'm hunting. We get bothered by mountain lions quite a bit, so I got a license, which essentially makes it simpler than going to court if I kill one without a license, plus I get to keep the pelt. Two prime lion pelts will pay for a custom steel Coconino frame, as a point of reference.


----------



## VitaVelNex (Jun 5, 2013)

Ailuropoda said:


> Many of you must lead very sheltered lives or never leave your gated communities if you think trouble won't find you because you mind your own business.


Agreed. It doesn't matter who you are, where you are, or how nice you think the area is. It doesn't have to be a bad area for you to be a victim.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

bsieb said:


> I carry my .44 in my frame bag when I'm hunting. We get bothered by mountain lions quite a bit, so I got a license, which essentially makes it simpler than going to court if I kill one without a license, plus I get to keep the pelt. Two prime lion pelts will pay for a custom steel Coconino frame, as a point of reference.


Might I ask how many mountain lions you have managed to bring down since you got a license? And when you say you are bothered by them, what exactly does that entail? Just interested is all...


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

...as for the subject matter of this thread, it has all been said before, and nothing anyone has ever said in any of the myriad threads on the subject has caused me even the minutest desire to rethink my view on the issue. I guess that makes me the same as all the others on the other side of the fence! Plus ca change!


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Ailuropoda said:


> Many of you must lead very sheltered lives or never leave your gated communities if you think trouble won't find you because you mind your own business.
> .


Not a sheltered life at all - its called a Canadian life.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

Please don't let the gif I posted be anything other than humor. I am an avid 2nd amendment supporter and respect anyones right to carry if they feel the need. Honestly, I am carrying about everywhere besides my bike. I just can't see the practicality of carrying while riding (unless on a multi-day remote ride). I live in the Washington DC area and I could easily ride in places where a gun is needed, but I avoid those places at all costs. It's not the wildlife I am fearful of either. Lots of people get frazzled trying to comprehend the need for a firearm, especially those who have never used one. All I can say is: if you are carrying anywhere, please, please take a firearms safety course and learn the laws for your area. It is the ignorant ones who give the legit ones a bad name. No one EVER talks about what good a gun can be. The only gun talk you will hear are the incidents where someone did bad with a gun. Sadly, that is what makes or breaks those "unfamiliar" with firearms.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

rockerc said:


> Might I ask how many mountain lions you have managed to bring down since you got a license? And when you say you are bothered by them, what exactly does that entail? Just interested is all...


I haven't brought any lions down yet, got my lion license in October, but was talking about deer hunting in the previous post. Winter is a better time to aggressively hunt them, like calling with a mechanical struggling fawn decoy. At our cabin/bike house, they are always around if you look hard enough. In places where they are hunted they are afraid of people but are still curious. The pic was taken with a cell phone from a bike trail at 20', fwiw. Pics are hard to come by, there are many encounters reported for every actual pic. Lions need to learn that mtbers are not prey, even shooting at them will teach them that.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

sodak said:


> Please don't let the gif I posted be anything other than humor. I am an avid 2nd amendment supporter and respect anyones right to carry if they feel the need. Honestly, I am carrying about everywhere besides my bike. I just can't see the practicality of carrying while riding (unless on a multi-day remote ride). I live in the Washington DC area and I could easily ride in places where a gun is needed, but I avoid those places at all costs. It's not the wildlife I am fearful of either. Lots of people get frazzled trying to comprehend the need for a firearm, especially those who have never used one. All I can say is: if you are carrying anywhere, please, please take a firearms safety course and learn the laws for your area. It is the ignorant ones who give the legit ones a bad name. No one EVER talks about what good a gun can be. The only gun talk you will hear are the incidents where someone did bad with a gun. Sadly, that is what makes or breaks those "unfamiliar" with firearms.


There are plenty of 2nd Amendment supporters who are unnerved by the push by the gun lobby, law enforcement, and the militarized to get the average person to conceal and carry. I know a few of the folks in law enforcement and military/ex-military/militia-minded, and there is a concerted effort to scare people into gun ownership using the simple logic&#8230;better not get caught without. And in our unnerving world, the tactic is working like a champ, even when violent crime is at comparative levels with the early 1960's. When my little sister and my niece--who haven't hunted a day in their lives, who live in one of the safest states, in one of the safest towns in that state, and who 99.9999999% of their time never find themselves outside shouting distance of quick help--get conceal and carry licenses&#8230;well, what's to say. My niece recounted how she carried for the first time out to pick up the newspaper from the curb. I know plenty of other people too. And they all say the same thing: probably won't need it, but don't want to get caught without it. It's like a mantra.

Point being: I'd like to double down on what Sodak says above. If you're going to own a gun, get training, know the weapon inside and out, know how to handle the weapon properly, and don't carry until you've made yourself and expert. You gotta earn the right.


----------



## VitaVelNex (Jun 5, 2013)

It goes beyond training. Qualification courses for concealed carry permits are a joke. I have been around these shooters when they're being told to look at the front sight to aim, they will tilt the weapon up and look at the sight, then send a round into the ceiling of the indoor range. Getting a NRA teaching certification isn't that hard, neither is a concealed carry training certification.

Legitimate training and the proper mindset is what it needed. In the real world, things are not a static target that will stand still for a minute for you to shoot into. There will be plenty of other factors like them moving, you moving, potentially other people around, etc. Anyone that carries or uses a gun is accountable for any and every round sent downrange.

That being said, most people do not understand how quickly violent encounters happen. When it happens, it can seem like a lifetime, but those 5 minutes you think passed, was more like 20 seconds. If you're going to carry a weapon to defend yourself and your family, you need to be sure you're going to use it. You can't second guess yourself with it. If someone puts you in the situation, then give them everything they deserve.

Paul Howe, who is a great instructor said, "We must be able to apply the appropriate degree of force and discrimination, demonstrating a complete business like attention to detail and if necessary, we must be able to kill with ruthless efficiency."

That can appear morbid, but like I have said before, there are plenty of people out there who do not care at all about you or your loved ones. It is up to you to take personal responsibility for you and your loved ones lives. Thinking that you live in a safe area and it won't happen to you won't cut it.


----------



## sandiego (Sep 18, 2013)

Hell no. I can see no reason at all to carry a gun when I ride.


----------



## Bro (Dec 20, 2010)

I use my handlebar as self-protection when I'm riding. I designed and built a quick-release stem and shifter/brake clamps, so when the need arises, I can quickly and easily detach my handlebar from the bike and use it as a makeshift bludgeon. I use an aluminum bar so it doesn't break when I'm bashing the attacker's face in. But if you want the carbon to asplode and throw splinters into your attacker's face, then carbon is a great choice.

Give me a PM, OP, if you want the plans for that quick-release stem. I know it's not concealed carry, but it's a lot easier and lighter than carrying a gun.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

VitaVelNex said:


> Thinking that you live in a safe area and it won't happen to you won't cut it.


I like most of what you say about legit training and proper mindset, VVN, but most people understand that being alive comes with some dangers, even under ideal circumstances. Your line above is still a pretty piss poor reason for someone to arm her/himself. Even you would admit, were you to use some candor, that there are some people you have met, even given proper training, who have no business carrying a firearm. And having a pistol doesn't guarantee a person much by way of avoiding violence either. In your line of work, you see plenty of randomness, but I expect you also see plenty of instances where firearms didn't amount to much either. I hope you will consider adding some version of this line to your reasoning: Deciding to carry a weapon is a very personal choice that should be carefully considered. No person should carry out of fear.


----------



## VitaVelNex (Jun 5, 2013)

I wasn't saying they should carry out of fear and everyone should carry. There are plenty of cops I am glad I have never had things go south with. Frankly I wouldn't trust them to ID the proper target, let alone shoot in the same direction.

What you quoted was me saying the ignorance of thinking that just because it's a nice area doesn't mean you can't become a victim. Everyone thinks it will never happen to them, until it does. They will either be prepared for it, or they won't. 

I sit and pray every day that my friends will be safe. However I've seen and treated some that have been shot, know some that will never go back to what they love doing, and some that gave the ultimate sacrifice and will never see their families again. The bottom line is, you either accept the reality of it and train to potentially avoid and overcome, or you pretend it doesn't exist and go about your day.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I have used mine. Glad I had it. Saved my life.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

VitaVelNex said:


> I wasn't saying they should carry out of fear and everyone should carry. There are plenty of cops I am glad I have never had things go south with. Frankly I wouldn't trust them to ID the proper target, let alone shoot in the same direction.
> 
> What you quoted was me saying the ignorance of thinking that just because it's a nice area doesn't mean you can't become a victim. Everyone thinks it will never happen to them, until it does. They will either be prepared for it, or they won't.
> 
> I sit and pray every day that my friends will be safe. However I've seen and treated some that have been shot, know some that will never go back to what they love doing, and some that gave the ultimate sacrifice and will never see their families again. The bottom line is, you either accept the reality of it and train to potentially avoid and overcome, or you pretend it doesn't exist and go about your day.


Ah, I see you more clearly now. Very thoughtful. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Revealing whether I carry or not defeats the purpose of concealed carry.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

Slow Danger said:


> There are plenty of 2nd Amendment supporters who are unnerved by the push by the gun lobby, law enforcement, and the militarized to get the average person to conceal and carry. I know a few of the folks in law enforcement and military/ex-military/militia-minded, and there is a concerted effort to scare people into gun ownership using the simple logic&#8230;better not get caught without. And in our unnerving world, the tactic is working like a champ, even when violent crime is at comparative levels with the early 1960's. When my little sister and my niece--who haven't hunted a day in their lives, who live in one of the safest states, in one of the safest towns in that state, and who 99.9999999% of their time never find themselves outside shouting distance of quick help--get conceal and carry licenses&#8230;well, what's to say. My niece recounted how she carried for the first time out to pick up the newspaper from the curb. I know plenty of other people too. And they all say the same thing: probably won't need it, but don't want to get caught without it. It's like a mantra.
> 
> Point being: I'd like to double down on what Sodak says above. If you're going to own a gun, get training, know the weapon inside and out, know how to handle the weapon properly, and don't carry until you've made yourself and expert. You gotta earn the right.


Well said!


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Unfukkinbelievable that anyone would feel the need to carry a weapon when going to pick up a newspaper... unfukkinbelievable that the idea of a society with everyone carrying lethal weapons is desirable to anyone. Personally I subscribe to the 'mantra' that arming people is not a valid answer to the problems of violent crime. It is a temporary solution at best, and has many ancillary problems that are unacceptable to me. I also cannot imagine the carnage that would ensue if you put even more guns into the hands of a population with the level of mental issues that we all enjoy. And yes, I include many people who feel the need to arm themselves with a deadly weapon amongst those with mental health problems. I am sure there are a very few who may be capable of handling a weapon with a measure of responsibility, and like with any skill, there are good and bad examples of it, with the majority of people never rising above average in ability at best, even with training.
As for carrying a gun on a bike ride, that to me is a ridiculous prospect. It is well-documented that for 4 legged creatures a gun is close to useless, certainly a gun that is in the hands of a rider making a snap call on its use, and against the human threat, for me my bike is not worth the thought of living with any alternative following the use of any firearm in anger. There are very few scenarios I can envisage where this might be something I could live with.
For those of you who live in as much fear as you so obviously do, whether you are honest about the fact or not, I suggest you get help


----------



## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

rockerc said:


> I also cannot imagine the carnage that would ensue if you put even more guns into the hands of a population with the level of mental issues that we all enjoy.


Imagining the carnage is all you can do, because it doesn't seem to take place in the real world. Gun ownership goes up all the time, more and more CCW permits are issued in more and more states and countries, yet violent crime seems to only decline.

I'd just have to take your word that rivers of blood on the streets is right around the corner, but I rather not live in fear.



rockerc said:


> For those of you who live in as much fear as you so obviously do, whether you are honest about the fact or not, I suggest you get help


Shall we apply this to your possible fear of other people carrying firearms, or rather not guess peoples' motives and mental state over the Internet?

In case it matters, I don't carry any kind of weapons. Not even a small pocket knife.


----------



## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

rockerc said:


> Unfukkinbelievable that anyone would feel the need to carry a weapon when going to pick up a newspaper... unfukkinbelievable that the idea of a society with everyone carrying lethal weapons is desirable to anyone. Personally I subscribe to the 'mantra' that arming people is not a valid answer to the problems of violent crime. It is a temporary solution at best, and has many ancillary problems that are unacceptable to me. I also cannot imagine the carnage that would ensue if you put even more guns into the hands of a population with the level of mental issues that we all enjoy. And yes, I include many people who feel the need to arm themselves with a deadly weapon amongst those with mental health problems. I am sure there are a very few who may be capable of handling a weapon with a measure of responsibility, and like with any skill, there are good and bad examples of it, with the majority of people never rising above average in ability at best, even with training.
> As for carrying a gun on a bike ride, that to me is a ridiculous prospect. It is well-documented that for 4 legged creatures a gun is close to useless, certainly a gun that is in the hands of a rider making a snap call on its use, and against the human threat, for me my bike is not worth the thought of living with any alternative following the use of any firearm in anger. There are very few scenarios I can envisage where this might be something I could live with.
> For those of you who live in as much fear as you so obviously do, whether you are honest about the fact or not, I suggest you get help


I think there have been very few, if any, instances of CCW permit holders causing any trouble at all. Probably the number is statistically insignificant.

Law abiding citizens go through the trouble of getting permits and are, by definition, law-abiding citizens. You don't get a CCW permit on a whim or to go on a shooting spree; that's usually criminals or lunatics who don't even consider the need to go to that trouble.

As for shooting somebody for a bike, I'm with you. There is nothing I own worth shooting anyone over. Somebody want to attack me, however....well...how much injury are you willing to tolerate in the name of tolerance?

My girlfriend carries a gun when she runs. A few women have been attacked and one raped while running. We live in the country where the sheriff is twenty minutes away at best. Does she have mental health problems?

I'm sure she'd rather live with the consequences of shooting a thug than of being raped. And no jury in the state would convict her, either.


----------



## Brockwan (Aug 6, 2013)

I carry canned string cheese in case I see a Bigfoot. If I see them I hurl it at them with a bunch of ritz crackers and I'm out. They frickin love the stuff.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

> Does anyone conceal carry when they ride?


Well I just assumed that a lot of people do.... but then I figured out you guys were talking about _guns_.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

rockerc said:


> It is well-documented that for 4 legged creatures a gun is close to useless


Really? What would you call hunting? Or in your ridiculous red herring point did you mean large predators? Still stupid.

The one time I used my gun I had to put down a sheepdog that was literally coming through my frame to get me. Yes, I used every other option at my disposal. It had to happen and my 13 year old son behind me was terrified. I don't regret that at all. I dare the bleeding hearts to tell me how wrong I was.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Saul Lumikko said:


> Imagining the carnage is all you can do, because it doesn't seem to take place in the real world. Gun ownership goes up all the time, more and more CCW permits are issued in more and more states and countries, yet violent crime seems to only decline.
> 
> I'd just have to take your word that rivers of blood on the streets is right around the corner, but I rather not live in fear.
> 
> ...


I take your points Saul, and I would point out that there have been several episodes in the last few years of carnage in the streets/movie theaters/schools/ take your pick. I believe this is a measure of the dysfunction in our society that I think to deny is irresponsible. I am afraid that I look to long term cures rather than short term solutions, and I believe that arming the populace is a short term solution whose negatives will outweigh the benefits. That is just my opinion based on what I see on the news, in the written media etc. I do not deny that there are many people who carry that are responsible citizens, but I still cannot get over the truth for me which is that the more guns you have out there, the more episodes of needless violence will occur.
I know many disagree with me, as is obvious here, but there are probably equally as many who agree. My beliefs are only fear-based inasmuch as they are from a desire to see us all live in a society as free from the fear to feel a need to defend oneself with deadly force as is possible. To me, that entails education, more focus on dealing with mental health issues, and more encouragement of values based on altruism rather than personal gain at the expense of the rest of society. Then I am pretty sure we would start to see longer term benefits in the way we live and co-exist that would eventually see the end to any need to carry a gun, concealed or otherwise.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

rockerc said:


> Unfukkinbelievable that anyone would feel the need to carry a weapon when going to pick up a newspaper...


To be fair to my niece, Rocker, she recounted the story in kind of a joking way...like she was kind of nervous about carrying so she took the gun out to get the newspaper as sort of a trial run. I just think the story illustrates that the propaganda to urge people to carry is very effective and leading to absurdities. Gun ownership/conceal & carry has become kind of an "it" thing to do in many suburban/rural places where folks might not ordinarily have. I grew up in Western gun culture. Every truck with a shotgun or rifle, so lots of guns. Nowdays, and what's new is, folks are hunting less and buying military style weapons to blow shiz up, and conceal and carry weapons to feel empowered. Something for many bored folks to talk/brag to their friends about like they would a brand new toy for the garage. Yes, it's completely asinine.


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

In the case of using a handgun in defense of large cats, while I agree that if you are riding alone, it is useless. Even if you have it right there in some kind of handlebar holster. Becasue I'm certain you would never know a big cat was stalking you until you felt it sink it's teeth into your neck.

But what if you are riding with someone else, and as luck would have it, your riding partner is the one attacked. You happen to have a Glock .40 in your camelbak. As your buddy is being mauled, you could retrieve the weapon and approach the cat and carefully place a round or three into the side of it's head or neck. Or you could haul ass and save yourself, your choice.

Your buddy may or may not want you to 'take the shot', but if he's being mauled, I'm guessing he is all for 'take the shot'.


----------



## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

You're anti gun until you need one. Its ironic that you will call on a pro gunner, every time, when the **** hits the fan though.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

net wurker said:


> In the case of using a handgun in defense of large cats, while I agree that if you are riding alone, it is useless. Even if you have it right there in some kind of handlebar holster. Becasue I'm certain you would never know a big cat was stalking you until you felt it sink it's teeth into your neck.
> 
> But what if you are riding with someone else, and as luck would have it, your riding partner is the one attacked. You happen to have a Glock .40 in your camelbak. As your buddy is being mauled, you could retrieve the weapon and approach the cat and carefully place a round or three into the side of it's head or neck. Or you could haul ass and save yourself, your choice.
> 
> Your buddy may or may not want you to 'take the shot', but if he's being mauled, I'm guessing he is all for 'take the shot'.


You obviously have no first hand experience with mountain lions, so your certainties don't mean much. In any case, I'm not afraid of them, although I respect their capabilities. I'm hunting them, or at least equipping myself to take advantage of a serendipitous encounter. You have no idea of my capabilities or experience.


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

You're right, I have no experience with lions. And I may have thrown the word 'certain' around carelessly. But I meant in the context of bouncing along on a mountain bike, not in a situation where you are activley seeking them out to hunt them or encounter them. 

Even still, just be careful out there....I have read they can be pretty stealthy. I have also read they can be pretty good fighters, espicially against un-armed humans.

Of course, I did read it on the Internet, and you know what they say about things you read on the Internet.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

net wurker said:


> You're right, I have no experience with lions. And I may have thrown the word 'certain' around carelessly. But I meant in the context of bouncing along on a mountain bike, not in a situation where you are activley seeking them out to hunt them or encounter them.
> 
> Even still, just be careful out there....I have read they can be pretty stealthy. I have also read they can be pretty good fighters, espicially against un-armed humans.
> 
> Of course, I did read it on the Internet, and you know what they say about things you read on the Internet.


The most common encounters we have (other than seeing a lion disappearing across the road from a vehicle) are surprise encounters where the lion departs the encounter soon thereafter, or spotting a curious lion in relatively close proximity and it departs when discovered (or a shot fired over it's head, but that was a turkey hunter who was actively calling as he moved). In cases where it is not startled into fleeing immediately, there is time to retrieve a weapon from a bike or back pack and wait for a good killing shot to present itself. In a typical encounter around here a lion does not attack you from above without warning by breaking your neck. It's not that dramatic, but I suppose could be deadly if you imitate a prey object well enough. Best thing is to stand your ground, like a friend of mine did when a lion grabbed her dog's face and started suffocating it. She yelled and threw rocks till it left, saved her dog.


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

I'm glad the lady could save her dog!

But isn't the best thing to do is to "use the black arrow like a spear"????


----------



## LittleBitey (Nov 10, 2012)

Who is this "carry", and why should she/he be concealed while ridden?


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

LittleBitey said:


> Who is this "carry"?


Jim Carrey



LittleBitey said:


> Why should he be concealed while riding?


Cuz the mountain lions are out to get him. If they don't see him they'll leave him alone.


----------



## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

I have never seen a need to carry a gun when biking....

The only reason I can see was if I needed to ride through a community with very dangerous people regularly....and in all likelyhood I would fugure out another way around the problem.

Animals and wildlife are not a problem and I really don't want to kill them anyway.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

net wurker said:


> Jim Carrey


He needs to be concealed 6ft under.


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

Or just let the mountain lions have at him.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

net wurker said:


> Or just let the mountain lions have at him.


Not a hope if Jim's Carreying... HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

rockerc said:


> I would point out that there have been several episodes in the last few years of carnage in the streets/movie theaters/schools/ take your pick.
> 
> My beliefs are only fear-based inasmuch as they are from a desire to see us all live in a society as free from the fear to feel a need to defend oneself with deadly force as is possible. To me, that entails education, more focus on dealing with mental health issues, and more encouragement of values based on altruism rather than personal gain at the expense of the rest of society. Then I am pretty sure we would start to see longer term benefits in the way we live and co-exist that would eventually see the end to any need to carry a gun, concealed or otherwise.


I agree wholeheartedly about the direction of society you describe. If the society really is functioning well enough for crime to drop radically, I think fewer and fewer people would bother to carry and no-one would need to talk about banning them.

A bit more about fear: if we set aside the deadly potential side-effects of firearms and only look at the motivation of those who carry, my experience is that for most people it's really as simple as having fire alarms and extinguishers at home or seatbelts in their car. _Or a helmet while riding a bicycle._ I don't think people who take these precautions live in constant fear of something awful happening and it's the same for carrying. Of course the comparison can't be made directly because I've never heard of anyone shooting up a mall with a fire alarm or bicycle helmet, but malicious intent of a criminal has very little to do with the good intent of a regular person.

As for the examples of carnage in public places, to my knowledge none of the notorious cases were CCW permit holders, so I don't see the relevance to carrying specifically. As a further point, there have been shooting rampages in lots of countries with far stricter firearms legislation. For example Finland, where the amount of public massacre victims is higher than in the US (per capita of course), but carrying a defensive weapon of any kind is totally banned for civilians.


----------



## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

I also think there is some confusion here in regard to why you'd want to carry a gun while riding. It's the same confusion (or purposeful obfuscation) when people confuse the second amendment with hunting. 

The second amendment has nothing to do with hunting. Likewise I don't carry a gun when I ride in remote areas out of fear of animals. Sure we have some feral hogs but my primary motivation is the possibility of encountering one of our local psychopaths. 

There are people out there, you know, who will kill you for fun...it is only the fear of getting caught that keeps them in check. I see them in my Emergency Department all the time. Come in for some psychiatric complaint or another and you can tell they are amoral and soul-less. The kind of people who will kill you and then eat your lunch sitting on your body.

If you don't think they are out there you are mistaken.

Additionally, many of you lead very sheltered lives but you also may not know that the civil society we once enjoyed is breaking down rapidly.


----------



## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

In virtually all states that I'm aware of where it is reasonably possible to get a concealed carry permit, you need to take a course. I heartily recommend taking the course to anyone and everyone, whether pro, anti, or ambivalent. No matter your stance, you'll know better what you're talking about after taking the course.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Ailuropoda said:


> I also think there is some confusion here in regard to why you'd want to carry a gun while riding. It's the same confusion (or purposeful obfuscation) when people confuse the second amendment with hunting.
> 
> The second amendment has nothing to do with hunting. Likewise I don't carry a gun when I ride in remote areas out of fear of animals. Sure we have some feral hogs but my primary motivation is the possibility of encountering one of our local psychopaths.
> 
> ...


Ailuropoda, I can see that you are at the sharp end when it comes to dealing with the detritus of our society, and I respect your opinions that are obviously based on bitter experience. However, I just cannot agree with the 'prepper' mentality that is dictating to you that society is breaking down, so 'to arms!'... This, I believe is an alarmist and blinkered way to view our society and its issues. We are a great deal better off in my view than in most historical periods; we have better life expectancy, better standards of living in many places, and major conflicts are less common that at any time in our collective histories. If we can prioritise and address further burning issues that are affecting our societies to their detriment: poverty, homelessness, addiction, a lack of any spiritual connection, (not Religion), amongst other things, I believe that we would then see a further huge reduction in crime of all kinds, and consequently these 'discussions' would become redundant.

Easy right??!?


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

Be sure to obtain a CCW Permit, if required!

I'd recommend an IWB "belly" holster in a 45ACP compact S/A or a 44 Special or 45 Long Colt compact revolver then buy your practice ammo in bulk so you have enough to practice to be a safer and effective live saver.

Owning a guitar does not make you proficient in playing a guitar, so to speak.

happy trails. #2A.


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Ailuropoda said:


> I also think there is some confusion here in regard to why you'd want to carry a gun while riding. It's the same confusion (or purposeful obfuscation) when people confuse the second amendment with hunting.
> 
> The second amendment has nothing to do with hunting. Likewise I don't carry a gun when I ride in remote areas out of fear of animals. Sure we have some feral hogs but my primary motivation is the possibility of encountering one of our local psychopaths.
> 
> ...


Pompous much? Geez.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

Just a friendly reminder. 

The police can not protect you and your people: Nor any of the clueless "sheep-like" posters here. Stay happy and be appropriately prepared to save life, think like a "shepard."

In my State I am always legally prepared and as far as I know have not troubled any considerate people.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

TrailNut said:


> Just a friendly reminder.
> 
> The police can not protect you and your people: Nor any of the clueless "sheep-like" posters here. Stay happy and be approximately prepared to save life, think like a "shepard."
> 
> In my State I am always legally prepared and as far as I know have not troubled any considerate people.


Why thank you for your protection kind sir! Baaaa Baaa Baaa!


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

rockerc said:


> Why thank you for your protection kind sir! Baaaa Baaa Baaa!


You are not my people: I may be a decent witness, perhaps, but doubtful I will help remove that man behind you, making you bay...

Life is hard, more so if you are stupid.

Have a good one.


----------



## Tystevens (Nov 2, 2011)

rockerc said:


> Why thank you for your protection kind sir! Baaaa Baaa Baaa!


Am I the only one who is usually more fearful of adamant concealed-carry "shepard" spouting off all the common rhetoric and claiming to know all the answers than the miscreants said shepard is committed to protect me from?

note -- I'm definitely not anti-gun (I own and shoot regularly), and not really anti-carry (although I haven't seen any logical reason why I would want to carry all the time), but I am kinda anti-"I carry to protect the sheep."

And to keep the post relevant to the topic at hand, no, I don't carry when I ride. I have yet to encounter or even hear of a situation on the trails I ride that has made me think a gun would come in handy. The closest I've come to harm from another animal (2 or 4 legs) was an unhappy looking 6-ft tall cow moose standing in the middle of the trail with a calf. Even then, retreating and shouting and some very small rocks tossed in her direction got her to move, so all was well. And I don't know if my 9mm would have helped much if she wanted to harm me, anyway.

Of course, I could daydream up some scenarios where a gun would come in handy on a ride, but statistics don't bear out that I should have any logical concerns about those daydreams. So I don't worry about carrying.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Why is it that the people who call others sheeople all write using the same cliches lifted from militaria magazines and talk using the same phrases as the folks I watch on Doomsday Preppers?


----------



## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

I kind of identify myself as a sheepdog, but not in the sense that other people are sheep. The analogy is limited to myself and my personal choices only, and the way I feel when I see a fellow human being in trouble: I must help. It comes to me as naturally as a (false) sense of safety comes to the majority, which causes them to lower their shields in everyday life. The odds of something terrible happening is so minimal that it's a basic human way of behaving to ignore it. 

It would be arrogant to call people sheep for acting like perfectly normal people do. But if someone does, it's not necessary to take it the wrong way. When the analogy is taken too literally, we're getting besides the point.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Tystevens said:


> Am I the only one who is usually more fearful of adamant concealed-carry "shepard" spouting off all the common rhetoric and claiming to know all the answers than the miscreants said shepard is committed to protect me from?


Nope. To me a shepard (sic), is synonymous with a pompous, egotistical and moderately dangerous jackass, to continue the 4-legged simile.


----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

3 weeks in a row, I had bear encounters last may\early june. **** happens, when you are in the woods enough, you will have an encounter of some sort. Luckily I scared the living **** out of momma bear with her cubs. I could have swatted one of the cubs out of the tree when I went by. 

If you carry, good for you, know what you are carrying. if you are against it, good for you. Personally to many people worry about other peoples choices. I own lots of weapons, and have killed a lot of animals off of a bike, but I haven't carried for protection before. the bike has been great access for hunting.


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

so BLAH BLAH BLAH. Why did this turn into a debate over the merits of carrying or not carrying. Noone cares, and your opinion on the matter means nothing to someone with their own opinion. 

How about we get some REAL info on what kind of setups people are using to carry. Because there are some of us who feel the need to carry while biking, and would like to know what is effective or not.

Does anyone make any holster style bags made for bikes, prefferably one that fits a lcp380 or a full size .40 + an extra mag or 2 ?


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

steveohio said:


> so BLAH BLAH BLAH. Why did this turn into a debate over the merits of carrying or not carrying. Noone cares, and your opinion on the matter means nothing to someone with their own opinion.


Lol, obviously you haven't been on the interwebs for very long. Welcome.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

steveohio said:


> so BLAH BLAH BLAH. Why did this turn into a debate over the merits of carrying or not carrying.


 Cause that's how emptybeer rolls. The only thing I can add is "Please don't shoot me because you think I'm Bigfoot". TIA.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

h20-50 said:


> This is an honest question so please if you disagree I don't need to hear your opinions, I just want advice so I can decide how I can carry, if at all, responsibly and safely.


The more I read the "gun" threads the more I get agitated. Obviously there are many people here with opposing views for whatever reason. BUT, why is it when someone makes a post asking for advice/info on gun type and riding do all the naysayers come out of the woodwork? I do believe the OP stated above that he didn't want to hear your opinion if you disagree. So why is it that you guys feel obligated to chime in with your "anti" gun views? Then you feel the need to insult the person asking a totally legitimate question just because you do not agree? To me it's a simple as anything in life, if you don't like it don't watch it, click it, read it, or do it...period. No need to cause a stir just because YOU disagree. You are not me and I am not you, and never will be. just my .02 cents.


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

Sadly I've been on the interwebs long enough that I can remember when it wasn't filled with pompous *******s who feel they are doing society a favor by spouting their half assed opinions and horrible adverts taking up more space than actually "information" and sucking everyones bandwidth away.

Ah, the good ole' days. 

So anyways, does anyone have any legitimate information in regards to holster type bags for bikes, or is this something I'm gonna have to end up making myself while the hoi polloi is busy argueing over whos ethics are superior and whos bikes cost more ?


----------



## VitaVelNex (Jun 5, 2013)

I posted what I have found to work best for me and my Glocks.

I use a Hill People Gear bag across my chest and the weapon is secured by a Raven VanGuard 2, which is tethered to the bag.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

steveohio said:


> Sadly I've been on the interwebs long enough that I can remember when it wasn't filled with pompous *******s who feel they are doing society a favor by spouting their half assed opinions and horrible adverts taking up more space than actually "information" and sucking everyones bandwidth away.
> 
> Ah, the good ole' days.
> 
> So anyways, does anyone have any legitimate information in regards to holster type bags for bikes, or is this something I'm gonna have to end up making myself while the hoi polloi is busy argueing over whos ethics are superior and whos bikes cost more ?


There might be some useful information here. Happy days are here again.

http://forums.mtbr.com/recycle-bin/do-you-carry-gun-while-riding-628267.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/general-discussion/what-gun-carry-rides-765016.html


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Time to come up with a bug-out plan for this thread.


----------



## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

steveohio said:


> Why did this turn into a debate over the merits of carrying or not carrying.


Because it's a mountainbiking forum and the vast majority of registered users have probably never even shot a firearm, much less carried one. I'm sure a forum focused on firearms and CCW specifically would be a more fruitful place to discuss the subject because they might have actually useful things to say.

If I were to carry when cycling, the biggest decision would be "on or off the person" and where. A pistol in a belt holster could be hazardous in a crash and the belt and holster would be rather uncomfortable in sweating activities, but from a regular carrying perspective "on person" is a much better option. Backpack is safer for crashes and keeps the firearm on you regardless if you're on or off the bike, but is slowest to access. A zippered pouch below the top tube would be reasonably fast to access and not likely a liability in a crash, but if you'd lose the bike, you'd lose the firearm as well.

A rather tricky puzzle and I don't think there's an optimal way to solve it - just a choice of downsides you can try to manage.


----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

steveohio said:


> so BLAH BLAH BLAH. Why did this turn into a debate over the merits of carrying or not carrying. Noone cares, and your opinion on the matter means nothing to someone with their own opinion.
> 
> How about we get some REAL info on what kind of setups people are using to carry. Because there are some of us who feel the need to carry while biking, and would like to know what is effective or not.
> 
> Does anyone make any holster style bags made for bikes, prefferably one that fits a lcp380 or a full size .40 + an extra mag or 2 ?


I would think that the lcp380 would fit in the back pocket of a 3 pocket shirt no problem. I have also came across a guy with a shoulder holster on. pistol on one side, clips on the other. he was a solo rider in central Idaho, and his concern was wolves. To be honest, that to me is the biggest reason to carry, especially if you ride with a trail dog. But that would only be in a few western states, unless we can drop drops some wolves back east.


----------



## ctrider29er (Dec 1, 2013)

Just be sure to check your local carry laws. Here in CT you can't carry in a state forest. From what I've heard it's left over from a hunting reg that prohibits handguns for hunting but they didn't put in the "unless you have a carry permit" clause like other states have (PA is one example).

I hike and have wanted to carry hiking (easier than on a bike) but was surprised when I checked the regs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

rockerc said:


> Ailuropoda, I can see that you are at the sharp end when it comes to dealing with the detritus of our society, and I respect your opinions that are obviously based on bitter experience. However, I just cannot agree with the 'prepper' mentality that is dictating to you that society is breaking down, so 'to arms!'... This, I believe is an alarmist and blinkered way to view our society and its issues. We are a great deal better off in my view than in most historical periods; we have better life expectancy, better standards of living in many places, and major conflicts are less common that at any time in our collective histories. If we can prioritise and address further burning issues that are affecting our societies to their detriment: poverty, homelessness, addiction, a lack of any spiritual connection, (not Religion), amongst other things, I believe that we would then see a further huge reduction in crime of all kinds, and consequently these 'discussions' would become redundant.
> 
> Easy right??!?


I am in hundred percent agreement as to the root causes of "trouble." Might I also add that boredom figures into it. A lot of the crime I see is committed by people who are complete wards of the state; that is, on full disability for one thing or another, recipients of SNAP and sundry other benefits including free medical care. All of their basic needs are attended to by you and me but they are still bored and unhappy.

Understanding the root causes and optimism for the future doesn't mean we should be defenseless. My girlfriend lives in a remote part of the parish outside a small town and there have been a recent rash of home invasions; usually of the elderly. These are violent, kick-down-the-door crimes and I have treated both the victims and one of the criminals who was shot in the head by an elderly lady. She is not irrational or a "prepper" at all.


----------



## Gumbi4Prez (Jan 2, 2014)

These topics always end in a train wreck due to them being on a public forum. Varying opinions will always exist.

Just as " I love my $6000 full suspension wonder bike" comments are made in the beginner's forum. "what rigid entry level bike do I purchase".


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

Thanks for the links mookie, however those just kinda devolve into the same rhetoric as this thread.

And the #1 rule of having a gun on you is maintaining control of it at all times. Which really means securely to your person. 

The main issue I see with that is safety, if you crash a large steel object is going to hurt like hell to land on. Backpacking is easy to do this, however in a contact sport, the risk of self injury is greatly magnified with that on your person. Thats assuming proper precautions are taken in regards to firearm safety, ie safety on, hammer secured, nothing in the chamber. 

Carrying on a bike is a whole different ballgame in my opinion, the risk of unintended crashes means better safety methods should be employed. The only time I've carried on a bike was in east Cleveland in a non-trail setting. I know the areas well enough to know who and what are potential targets, and single skinny white guys with shiny expensive stuff kinda qualifies you in that category. Carrying in a low risk of crash type environment means carry on your person doesn't pose a major hazard as it would on a rocky back trail, or dh, epic backpacking type ride. 

Given that more extreme riding, I personally would want to opt for a top tube mounted type holster bag, maybe a pannier type near the stem, something easily access able, yet not on your person. If your going to stuff it in a camel back or something, there really is no point as it will take you too much time to brandish it if you need to. 

It really sucks to be in a life threatening position, need something, and have it, but not when you need it.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Ailuropoda said:


> one of the criminals who was shot in the head by an elderly lady. She is not irrational or a "prepper" at all.


She's good farkin shot though.


----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

The backpack one is a tough one. There are times you know you are going into a tricky spot. ie last june came across a nice size black bear. he ran down the trail and at the curve the bear ran straight into the brush. now I am sure he stopped to check out his back trail, and I was going to be riding right into where he was. if I would have had a weapon, I might have pulled it out then. but I just got a big head of steam up and charged the area, yelling charge, I did hear him run some more. pretty fun charging a bear.


----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

Hick in the stick here, if you can't tell. I love the mountains and everything that goes with it.


----------



## Centurion_ (Aug 13, 2011)

I carry concealed pretty much all the time, and have done so for 25 years without a significant incident. My regular gun is a Glock 19, but I don't like it for on the bike. To heavy, and it's a little big and cumbersome attached to bike shorts and under a jersey. Glock makes some good subcompacts, but my on the bike gun is a KHAR 9mm subcompact. It has a six round capacity, and is light and small. Fit's in my right rear jearsy pocket, and I don't wear a holster when on the bike. Cell phone, wallet, keys and possibly a spare mag go in the left side pocket, and they pretty well balance each other out. I carry it with a full mag, but an empty chamber, loose, just sittin in the pocket. I don't plan on getting into a gun fight, and doubt the need for a quick draw. But it is there if I need it.

Only needed it once. A neighbor's steer got out one morning, and when I attempted to herd it back into his pasture, the thing attacked me. Head butted me hard, so I put a round into the dirt, which scared him off. 

A gun is merely a tool. Like any other other tool, it's effectiveness depends more on the one carrying it than on the tool itself. Some people have no business with certain tools, and that's especially true with guns. So I strongly urge anyone who plans on carrying one to get some training and gain a reasonably high level of proficiency with it first. And if you're going to drink...even just a couple of beers...leave it at home.

I spent a career protecting others and am now retired. I am personally not willing to be a victim or to be an ineffectual witness to criminal violence.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

tim208 said:


> Hick in the stick here, if you can't tell. I love the mountains and everything that goes with it.


+1, the mountain is real. I have a good mtb friend who knocked a yearling bear silly with a football sized rock when it kept advancing on him at a customary break spot. Nailed him in the head at six feet, bear turned and ran smack into a tree that knocked it on it's ass again. Perfect lesson for the bear, amazing what you can do if you need to. A weapon is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## SSdirt29 (Dec 30, 2011)

I wonder what the ratio is of legal guns used in actual self defense as opposed to family members or other unintended victims.

An I.Q. test to buy a gun wouldn't be a bad thing.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

SSdirt29 said:


> I wonder what the ratio is of legal guns used in actual self defense as opposed to family members or other unintended victims.
> 
> An I.Q. test to buy a gun wouldn't be a bad thing.


Really? Take your troll to another thread.


----------



## SSdirt29 (Dec 30, 2011)

Silentfoe said:


> Really? Take your troll to another thread.


Really? My point exactly. An I.Q. test to buy a gun wouldn't be a bad thing. If you bring up guns in a MTB forum, what do you expect.

I wonder what the ratio is of legal guns used in actual self defense as opposed to family members or other unintended victims.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

SSdirt29 said:


> I wonder what the ratio is of legal guns used in actual self defense as opposed to family members or other unintended victims.
> 
> An I.Q. test to buy a gun wouldn't be a bad thing.


Some of the people with the highest IQ's are also the most unstable. Thanks for playing though. Marge show dirt his parting gift please.


----------



## SSdirt29 (Dec 30, 2011)

AZ said:


> Some of the people with the highest IQ's are also the most unstable. Thanks for playing though. Marge show dirt his parting gift please.


and they probably live alone. Don't worry though (don't tread on me and all that), they too can buy an assault weapon with a 30 round clip and visit your kids school.

The I.Q test would more likely be targeted to Joe Tea-Billie with a house full of guns that accomplish getting the neighbor kid shot.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

SSdirt29 said:


> and they probably live alone. Don't worry though (don't tread on me and all that), they too can buy an assault weapon with a 30 round clip and visit your kids school.


Me worry? Not in the least. Posters like you with the histrionics are exactly why these threads go off the rails. Knee jerk much?


----------



## SSdirt29 (Dec 30, 2011)

AZ said:


> Me worry? Not in the least. Posters like you with the histrionics are exactly why these threads go off the rails. Knee jerk much?


hey, if you can't attack my argument attack me. I get it but hit the dirt, I'm not playing. Dismissed.


----------



## SSdirt29 (Dec 30, 2011)

your reply is taking pretty long. NRA page down ?


----------



## Centurion_ (Aug 13, 2011)

Several interesting arguments and attacks against those who legally carry guns, (and some not so interesting ones as well).

But the OP posted to get ideas on HOW to carry. Not asking if it was alright with all ofyou if he did so.

Would it be to much to ask to address the topic and save the hand wringing and insults for another thread?


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

SSdirt29 said:


> your reply is taking pretty long. NRA page down ?


You seem tense. Go to a soothing place in your mind. Now imagine a bubbling brook flowing through a quiet forest. Wind down. Relax.


----------



## SSdirt29 (Dec 30, 2011)

Centurion_ said:


> Several interesting arguments and attacks against those who legally carry guns, (and some not so interesting ones as well).
> 
> But the OP posted to get ideas on HOW to carry. Not asking if it was alright with all ofyou if he did so.
> 
> Would it be to much to ask to address the topic and save the hand wringing and insults for another thread?


Fair enough. Another time. I just think a gun forum would be more appropriate. (and useful)


----------



## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

He's just pissed that he got called out and owned in the space of three or four posts. That's what happens when you troll these threads. Typical reactionary bs from the anti crowd.


----------



## SSdirt29 (Dec 30, 2011)

floydlippencott said:


> He's just pissed that he got called out and owned in the space of three or four posts. That's what happens when you troll these threads. Typical reactionary bs from the anti crowd.


Yah he (AZ), really was pissed that he was owned wasn't he. Had no answer, only personal attacks just like you on my Neg Rep you gave me. Not that I expected a coherent response from either of you.

Have a nice day. It was nice attempting to converse.

Peace and Love,
SSdirt


----------



## SSdirt29 (Dec 30, 2011)

floydlippencott , Your Negative rep is ok. We all have our opinion. I gave you a Positive Rep due to your being a bit in over your head on some things. It's not your fault. You were born that way.


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

Except you aren't trying to converse, your attempting to derail the topic with your myopic opinions and trying to start an argument people aren't interested in having. Your tone is aggresive, and you look like a jackass in this thread. 

You wouldn't have a prayer in any legitimate gun discussion because you already have a preconceived notion that somehow your opinion is correct, kindly go troll elsewhere, or is the sun coming up soon? 

As for the topic, why is it not suited for this forum? Carrying a firearm on a bike is something some people want to do. People on an enthusiast bike forum are more likely to have more experience carrying a gun than people on a gun site would have riding a bike.


----------



## SSdirt29 (Dec 30, 2011)

steveohio said:


> Except you aren't trying to converse, your attempting to derail the topic with your myopic opinions and trying to start an argument people aren't interested in having. Your tone is aggresive, and you look like a jackass in this thread.
> 
> You wouldn't have a prayer in any legitimate gun discussion because you already have a preconceived notion that somehow your opinion is correct, kindly go troll elsewhere, or is the sun coming up soon?
> 
> As for the topic, why is it not suited for this forum? Carrying a firearm on a bike is something some people want to do. People on an enthusiast bike forum are more likely to have more experience carrying a gun than people on a gun site would have riding a bike.


personal attacks again.... Bueller.....Crickets.....

I wonder what the ratio is of legal guns used in actual self defense as opposed to family members or other unintended victims.

An I.Q. test to buy a gun wouldn't be a bad thing.

I'm sure MTBR is full of anecdotes of mountain bikers being attacked by wild animals and criminals that I've overlooked. My bad.


----------



## VitaVelNex (Jun 5, 2013)

This is how I run mine. It has been the best setup I have found so far.


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

And I'm sure you've contributed to some post somewhere with something meaningful to the discussion at hand, but I bet I find those reports of on trail incidents more readily than finding a single anecdote of information from you.

The sad thing is, I almost agree with you on the IQ test(although, as proven by history and previous posters, it would do no good, a psychological exam to buy a gun would more likely prove effective) 
How about we force an IQ test in order to procreate? It would solve this silly argument quicker, and we eliminate that need for gun control because over time evolution would weed out the stupid idiots we breed. 

Sadly, some of us don't live in a liberal eutopia like that and **** happens, either your prepared for it, or you aren't. People with low IQs aren't the prepared ones they're the victims.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

There are plenty of bike bag makers, especially with the proliferation of Fatbikes and bike packing. I'll bet we could get one of them to make something usable for us. I'm thinking a small bag strapped to the side of the head tube would be optimal. Out of the way but easy to get to. Not a bag really but more like an IWB holster.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

One more thing to add. I'm a high school mtb coach. I make sure I have my gun in my camelbak every ride I go on with those kids. It's a lot of responsibility to be in charge of that many young lives. Nothing left to chance.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Let's not let the OP off so easily. OP learns about a murder, decides maybe he/she wants to carry on rides, reads other threads on mtbr about it, knows those gun threads went haywire--as all gun threads do--but still chooses to start a thread asking how she/he should carry, but insisting that nobody should give him/her opinions. Now, that doesn't excuse the worst of the bottom feeding in the thread, but I think it's ok for folks to come on and question why s/he might want to carry on the bike because the way the issue was presented the OP was getting set to go out and get a license to conceal and carry, and maybe the weapon too, based on one incident and hearsay. And to prepare for the responsibility of gun ownership, the OP asked a question on a mountain biking website knowing the storm that would follow. If that's the OP's approach to conceal and carry, maybe it's time to reconsider…whatever the politics. 

And no matter which political bent one gravitates towards, it's always the same old argument. No sense pretending to be above the fray or yelling about thread derails. Either way, your politics are showing.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

I for one would not keep the gun on the bike. Too easy to become seperated from your weapon when you need it, and it also would require you un-conceal it every time you dismounted the bike. Say ya need to take a leak, you have to unholster the gun and take it with you. Say someone or yourself wants to swap bikes for a section of trail to test a different ride, you have to un-conceal and display the weapon or very irresponsibly allow someone else control over it. Say some nice young man decides he wants your belongings, and quite easily knocks you off your bike as you ride by and starts beating the **** out of you with a rock or limb while your bike is not within reach anymore, how you gonna defend yourself then? Now not only does this POS thief have a new bike, they also have a new illegally obtained firearm that is perfect for committing more crimes with.

If you want to carry, then YOU need to do the carrying, not your bike. I know it is more uncomfortable physically to strap it to yourself than the bike, but that is really where it belongs.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

musikron said:


> I for one would not keep the gun on the bike. Too easy to become seperated from your weapon when you need it, and it also would require you un-conceal it every time you dismounted the bike. Say ya need to take a leak, you have to unholster the gun and take it with you. Say someone or yourself wants to swap bikes for a section of trail to test a different ride, you have to un-conceal and display the weapon or very irresponsibly allow someone else control over it. Say some nice young man decides he wants your belongings, and quite easily knocks you off your bike as you ride by and starts beating the **** out of you with a rock or limb while your bike is not within reach anymore, how you gonna defend yourself then? Now not only does this POS thief have a new bike, they also have a new illegally obtained firearm that is perfect for committing more crimes with.
> 
> If you want to carry, then YOU need to do the carrying, not your bike. I know it is more uncomfortable physically to strap it to yourself than the bike, but that is really where it belongs.


Good points to consider for anyone wanting to carry while riding. Most likely overlooked in the grand scheme of things and a very valid point.


----------



## GoGoGordo (Jul 16, 2006)

Silentfoe said:


> One more thing to add. I'm a high school mtb coach. I make sure I have my gun in my camelbak every ride I go on with those kids. It's a lot of responsibility to be in charge of that many young lives. Nothing left to chance.


Fool.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Silentfoe said:


> One more thing to add. I'm a high school mtb coach. I make sure I have my gun in my camelbak every ride I go on with those kids. It's a lot of responsibility to be in charge of that many young lives. Nothing left to chance.


Do the parents and school district know? I ask, because depending upon state laws or school district policy, or even the reaction of some parents, you may be leaving yourself open to the kind of PR nightmare that can cost yourself a job.


----------



## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

SSdirt29 said:


> I'm sure MTBR is full of anecdotes of mountain bikers being attacked by wild animals and criminals that I've overlooked. My bad.


Black bear.
Just to save you looking.


----------



## VitaVelNex (Jun 5, 2013)

Slow Danger said:


> Do the parents and school district know? I ask, because depending upon state laws or school district policy, or even the reaction of some parents, you may be leaving yourself open to the kind of PR nightmare that can cost yourself a job.


This is part of the problem in my opinion. Things are based off public relations and public perception, rather than what is safer or could save potential lives.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

VitaVelNex said:


> This is part of the problem in my opinion. Things are based off public relations and public perception, rather than what is safer or could save potential lives.


And the other side of this coin is that many, including myself, think that this public perception of which you speak does have a valid voice, and the perception you have that you carrying is safer and 'could save potential lives', is a view held by few, and not necessarily people qualified to make the kind of life or death decisions in an emergency situation. I am sure that there are a very few people who are capable, and where their actions may save lives in certain situations, but it is short-sighted to assume that anyone can pick up a gun, carry it everywhere, and even with training, be capable of using it in an effective way. There are, after all, officers and officials with many years of such training who are nonetheless incapable of making effective snap decisions in such situations. Unfortunately, we cannot legislate for anything other than the lowest common denominator, and the bar is pretty low with some of the knuckle-draggers I have encountered in my home state who open carry and conceal carry.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Trail Ninja said:


> Black bear.
> Just to save you looking.
> View attachment 860944


Does that Black Bear use Gillette or Schick? Smarter than the average Bear BooBoo!


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

We have nothing to do with the school district so that doesn't come into play. Doesn't matter anyway because here in Utah anyone who can carry concealed, can carry in schools, including teachers. The parents don't know and the ones who do don't care. Honestly it's none of their business. I am a responsible adult and gun owner. I don't wave it around or even let the kids know it's there. It's a non factor. It's there for my judicious use only. I'm one of those people who believes that the world is safer with more guns, not less. You won't change my mind and you won't offend me by stooping to name calling. I won't neg rep you for your difference in opinion either.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

rockerc said:


> And the other side of this coin is that many, including myself, think that this public perception of which you speak does have a valid voice, and the perception you have that you carrying is safer and 'could save potential lives', is a view held by few, and not necessarily people qualified to make the kind of life or death decisions in an emergency situation. I am sure that there are a very few people who are capable, and where their actions may save lives in certain situations, but it is short-sighted to assume that anyone can pick up a gun, carry it everywhere, and even with training, be capable of using it in an effective way. There are, after all, officers and officials with many years of such training who are nonetheless incapable of making effective snap decisions in such situations. Unfortunately, we cannot legislate for anything other than the lowest common denominator, and the bar is pretty low with some of the knuckle-draggers I have encountered in my home state who open carry and conceal carry.


You speak of perceptions and claim that my views are in the miniority. I would counter that they are in fact not in the miniority. You are swayed by thinking that your own personal opinion on the matter is the most important opinion and therefore most people share it. It doesn't help that most media outlets report with a leftist bias. I would point out the recent recall of state politicians in Colorado. There are other examples but I would think that the quiet majority of Americans feel safer with guns around. I could be wrong. I actually do enjoy the discussion we're having as long as we can keep it civil and not call each other "fools" for having an opinion.

I think that most people who carry with a serious intent and not just because it's the "in" thing, are very well trained. I would even point out that anyone is qualified to make life or death decisions in an emergency. It's kind of ridiculous to state that someone wouldn't be qualified to decide their own fate. Cuts to the core of right to life and our own constitution.

Oh, and I'll agree with the rebuttal to my "holster bag on the bike idea". I just threw that out there in the discussion as an idea and hadn't spent a lot of time thinking about it (as this is an odd discussion).


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Silentfoe said:


> I won't neg rep you for your difference in opinion either.


Phew!!! That's a relief!

Seriously, If I knew my children were being looked after by someone carrying a weapon, who was not trained to react in an emergency situation, I would do my best to change that, or move them to a different school. Your interpretation of 'judicious use' is not necessarily shared by me or indeed many others.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

You'd have to move them out of state in Utah to get them away from guns in schools. Also you're making a big assumption to say that I am not trained to react in an emergency situation (since we are talking about me and my example). Or to even assume that someone else isn't. I would make my own assumption that if one of our teachers is going to go so far as to carry in school, that they take that responsibility seriously and will spend some time training or at least be very cognizant of possible scenarios, otherwise known as war gaming, otherwise known as mental training.


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

musikron said:


> I for one would not keep the gun on the bike. Too easy to become seperated from your weapon when you need it, and it also would require you un-conceal it every time you dismounted the bike. Say ya need to take a leak, you have to unholster the gun and take it with you. Say someone or yourself wants to swap bikes for a section of trail to test a different ride, you have to un-conceal and display the weapon or very irresponsibly allow someone else control over it. Say some nice young man decides he wants your belongings, and quite easily knocks you off your bike as you ride by and starts beating the **** out of you with a rock or limb while your bike is not within reach anymore, how you gonna defend yourself then? Now not only does this POS thief have a new bike, they also have a new illegally obtained firearm that is perfect for committing more crimes with.
> 
> If you want to carry, then YOU need to do the carrying, not your bike. I know it is more uncomfortable physically to strap it to yourself than the bike, but that is really where it belongs.


You are correct here. You should absolutely always have it on you, or in hands reach all the time. However the risk of personal injury due to falling on your gun is much greater than the risk of actually needing to ever use it. This is why I feel, as well as Silentfoe that within hands reach on your tube tube is probably as safer call for yourself.

The issue then becomes always having your bike in your hands at all times. I don't see this as a big issue. The people I ride with I've known my whole life, I would trust anyone of them with my life if indeed any SHTF scenario were to ever play out, so to me, it wouldn't be a huge issue for me taking my eyes off the bike(and in someone else's possession I know)

Also on the same note has anyone else considered a bug-out bike?

I know in my kit(bob, not bike), I have a .22 Ruger MKII with a thousand rounds of ammo in the event of needing to survive off the grid or a shtf scenario. I have a spare older bike trailer I have thought of converting into a permanent bikepacking/bug out trailer in the event I can't take a motorized vehicle around safely. Makes sense to me on many levels.


----------



## Trail_Blazer (May 30, 2012)

To the OP:

So, you must realize that a gun would have done nothing to help the woman who was stabbed in the park near your home?
So why do you want one?

I am a fan of guns, don't get me wrong.
But I wondered if you really thought out the practicality of what your talking about?

You'd be better equipped with a training class on how to spot and avoid suspicious people than to carry a firearm on the trail for personal self defense.

*The woman who was stabbed the other day had head phones in while lying dead, never once did her headphones come free before or during her attack.

Having self awareness is the greatest method of safety.
Having a trail partner is the second level of safety.*

The only thing a gun helps with on the trail is a rattlesnake. lol ... 
and you usually need a special type of bullet to easily shoot a snake.

Good luck and I wish you the best.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Steveohio. Brace yourself, you're going to be called a nutjob, fool, and a prepper.

I'll just say it's smart to have a plan. For whatever. Things happen, you should be ready.

I have a food supply for my family, a generator, fuel and guns. I don't know what I'll need it for but hell, right now it's freezing across most of the country and if the power goes out I'll need the generator and food for sure. If that lasted long enough, I could see myself needing the guns for hunting or for the rare socialist neighbor who feels they are entitled to my prior proper planning. I have included my fatbike in the planning because it'll go anywhere without fuel which could be handy.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Trail_Blazer said:


> The only thing a gun helps with on the trail is a rattlesnake. lol ...
> and you usually need a special type of bullet to easily shoot a snake.


12 Gauge? RPG?

Don't get started on snakes.


----------



## Brockwan (Aug 6, 2013)

steveohio said:


> on the same note has anyone else considered a bug-out bike?
> 
> I know in my kit(bob, not bike), I have a .22 Ruger MKII with a thousand rounds of ammo in the event of needing to survive off the grid or a shtf scenario. I have a spare older bike trailer I have thought of converting into a permanent bikepacking/bug out trailer in the event I can't take a motorized vehicle around safely. Makes sense to me on many levels.


You should also put a 50 cal mount on there, some garlic, silver bullets, crucifix and some extra foil to make hats with.

The truth is out there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VitaVelNex (Jun 5, 2013)

rockerc said:


> And the other side of this coin is that many, including myself, think that this public perception of which you speak does have a valid voice, and the perception you have that you carrying is safer and 'could save potential lives', is a view held by few, and not necessarily people qualified to make the kind of life or death decisions in an emergency situation. I am sure that there are a very few people who are capable, and where their actions may save lives in certain situations, but it is short-sighted to assume that anyone can pick up a gun, carry it everywhere, and even with training, be capable of using it in an effective way. There are, after all, officers and officials with many years of such training who are nonetheless incapable of making effective snap decisions in such situations. Unfortunately, we cannot legislate for anything other than the lowest common denominator, and the bar is pretty low with some of the knuckle-draggers I have encountered in my home state who open carry and conceal carry.


I agree with you. I have stated previously that I work around people that are better suited for desk jobs where the only chance they would have of using their weapon is when the leave the office to go to lunch. That being said, there are plenty of civilians that invest thousands and thousands of dollars into training that never carried a weapon on a two way range.

I do carry a weapon daily, and it's my job to deal with these kind of situations. Having gone through shootings and other bigger scale events, I know where I stand in the debate with it. My point is all too often military rules of engagement and law enforcement policy is based off public perception and law makers. Most of the time the public who puts pressure on departments to change policy and rules of engagement have no idea what they're talking about. They have never been in a life or death situation, they've never been shot at, they've never pointed a weapon at someone, much less had to make the decision to take someone else's life in order to take their next breath. Their information comes from media, which often times is very misconstrued on initial reports, and very rarely does the full story come out in a large article like the breaking news did. Any use of force from any branch of the military or law enforcement looks bad to those who do no understand it or have been through it. Those that have no idea on what it's like, have no room to be making policy, which is how things are now.


----------



## Trail_Blazer (May 30, 2012)

VitaVelNex said:


> I agree with you. but it is short-sighted to assume that anyone can pick up a gun, carry it everywhere, and even with training, be capable of using it in an effective way. .


Generalizations this wide apply to you and me and everyone, which makes it a useless statement.
If almost no one can live up to your expectations then all guns should be banned, at least in the reality you live.

However, this is not true at all.

Seriously, then that would also include every police officer and swat team and every military person too.

But they all do believe, and demonstrate daily, that they can and DO train almost anyone to use a gun effectively and responsibly.

Training and practice do prepare you for life.
That's how life works, you live it, you learn from it, you can always improve.

It's stupid to make an assumption that almost every human, can not be trained to be prepared ready responsible with firearms.

Wait.... Every gas stove should be banned too, since school's don't train you how to operate one! omg! thanks for opening my eyes to all the dangers in the world, omg I better hide now. 
(roll-eyes)

Some people make poor choices and break the rules and should not have weapons, but that is the person we are trying to be protected from, by becoming armed and trained.


----------



## Gumbi4Prez (Jan 2, 2014)

I live in hillbilly country. Everyone has guns. Recently voters struck down teachers carrying. Heck, most teachers didn't want anything to do with it. Carrying at the University also failed.


----------



## VitaVelNex (Jun 5, 2013)

Trail_Blazer said:


> Generalizations this wide apply to you and me and everyone, which makes it a useless statement.
> If almost no one can live up to your expectations then all guns should be banned, at least in the reality you live.
> 
> However, this is not true at all.
> ...


Please show me where I said "majority", "everyone" or anything pertaining to a large group of people. I made a statement saying anyone, which could be 1 out of a million. Stick to what I say and not what you want my statements to say.


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

The training most people encounter, both in military and LEO training, mostly deals with the physical aspect of training. How to hold and fire a gun, how to carry, handle, store, etc. If you get into advanced training, you learn how to clear a room, line of sight, how to reload and maintain accuracy.

Unfortunately, the psychological aspect of owning and having a gun is severely lacking in most training classes. Anyone who doesn't have the shakes can hold and shoot a gun relatively straight in a low or no stress situation like a range. 

Its when your adrenaline is pumping, bullets are flying, and fast decisive choices must be made that most people, including those who carry and use weapons as a profession, generally forget all of their training and let instinct take over. 

Its absolute fact that in those situations, a great majority of people are far less accurate with their weapons than they would like to think, even with years of training.
You really need to have a firm grasp on what you are doing in everything that you do in order to mentally prepare yourself for a life threatening situation.


----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

I want to know how you found a thousand rounds of .22lr. hard to buy a box of 50 around here anymore.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

steveohio said:


> The training most people encounter, both in military and LEO training, mostly deals with the physical aspect of training. How to hold and fire a gun, how to carry, handle, store, etc. If you get into advanced training, you learn how to clear a room, line of sight, how to reload and maintain accuracy.
> 
> Unfortunately, the psychological aspect of owning and having a gun is severely lacking in most training classes. Anyone who doesn't have the shakes can hold and shoot a gun relatively straight in a low or no stress situation like a range.
> 
> ...


This WAS true. In the 1940's. You should read "Men against fire" by General S.L.A. Marshall. It discusses exactly what you are talking about. However because of many experiences, after actions and other institutional realizations, training has become much better. This is why basic training is so mentally difficult. There are ways that the military, and I'm guessing law enforcement, trains you to overcome your basic human instinct and to actually aim at and hit a human being. This is why your "instinct" becomes what your training makes it to be, it's moldable. People don't generally forget all of their training, it is so ingrained that it becomes exactly what they do.


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

tim208 said:


> I want to know how you found a thousand rounds of .22lr. hard to buy a box of 50 around here anymore.


I bought a great majority of them a few years ago, when boxes of 500 were easy to find and $10. Its probably easier to find them in bricks of 500 than 50. A box of 50 .22 rounds would more than likely be birdshot or some of type of speciality ammo. When backpacking for multiple days, I generally take a brick with me, for both survival and plinking(practice).

I disagree with you on the training aspects. I know of many, many incidents of gun battles recently where people missed a full magazine when someone was 10 feet in front of them ala Pulp Fiction.

The problem is, its very hard to train enough to get to the point where your instincts are to remain calm in a situation that is anything but calm. Considering the fact that it took 250,000 rounds of ammo per kill in iraq, the average in Vietnam was 50,000, WW2 20,000.

Thats not all because guns shoot faster and more bullets, it has alot to do with training and the mental state of those pulling the trigger. Truth nowadays is that a great majority of those in the military are not mentally prepared and either are gung-ho wannabe death dealers, or end up suffering from post traumatic disorder from taking another life. Myself, I'd rather have some good ole boys from the south protecting me than the official armed forces.


----------



## VitaVelNex (Jun 5, 2013)

Yes, it's done trough force on force training using submunitions, FX or similar rounds. You're using your kit, a real weapon, and training all at once. A lot of things become second nature through training. 

I am very pro gun and am all for someone doing something to protect themselves. However, some peoples egos extend further than their ability, and a lot of the times these are the guys making YouTube videos and crap. There is a very definitive line between someone who has been trained, actively seeks training because it's a perishable skill versus those who shoot in their backyard or at a range and think because they can get a decent groups means they're a gunfighter. I'm not trying to say one group is better than another, but you have to seriously look at what you are capable of and know those limitations. 

I was talking to a friend who's very experienced in SOF hostage rescue operations and he made a comment about something that has always stuck with me and made me focus more on certain aspects of training. He states that if he ever made the mistake and wasn't capable of performing a headshot on the target, and accidentally shot and killed the hostage, then he did not deserve to come home and be with his family. That has always stuck with me. 

The bottom line is, carrying a gun is only part of the equation.


----------



## michaelscott (May 23, 2011)

I don't carry since my state makes it quite difficult and I've honestly never felt in danger on any of my trails.

If I lived in another state and felt the need to I would use something like this chest holster:

'Urban Strider' Nylon Chest-Carry Handgun Holster Pack by Magills

The location would allow me to wear my backpack and there would less risk of damage to me or the gun if I fell. It would obviously be slower to draw than a side chest or side hip mount but would be much quicker than keeping the gun in the pack.


----------



## Trail_Blazer (May 30, 2012)

Once Again, since this has all gone so far off topic.

To the OP:

I hope you watched the news and about the recent attack in your area that promted you to consider carrying a gun...

Then you would realize that a gun would have done nothing to help the woman who was stabbed in the park near your home.

So, why do you really want one?
I am a fan of guns usually, don't get me wrong.

I wonder if you really thought out the facts clearly.

The woman who was stabbed the other day was surprised from behind by a knifing wielding man.
The victim was still wearing her ear bud head phones as she lie dead, never once did her headphones come free before or during her attack.

*Having self awareness is the greatest method of safety.
Having a trail partner is the second level of safety.*

You'd be better equipped with a training class on how to spot and avoid suspicious people than to carry a firearm on the trail for personal self defense.

The only thing a gun helps with on the trail is a rattlesnake. lol ... 
and you usually need a special type of bullet to easily shoot a snake.

Good luck and I wish you the best.


----------



## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

Guns should be illegal for possession/use to the general public in the USA. We would have far less crime without them.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Thanks for that fantasy moment.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

The OC must be getting slow.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

AZ said:


> The OC must be getting slow.


It's January. And really cold outside.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

What ever CCW Permit laws we have should be fair and applied to a100% of Citizens, just the way we do with Drivers Licenses or Bar Exam or MD's license: All that qualify are permitted. These "Constitutional Carry" or "Shall Issue" laws are fair, but "May Issue" laws are un-Constitutional and grossly un-fair and had the effect of only encouraging criminals.

awareness of surroundings and managing risks are paramount, before carrying any weapons, particularly the tools that can harm unintended beings or property.

karate/boxing or jujutsu/BJJ/judo/aikido/wresting are for when we are out of bullets or have chosen to not "carry" at all, for whatever the reasons.

Enjoyment of any unarmed martial arts and (non-religious) meditation does have its benefits of expanding a person's awareness.

Making emotional personal insults in the internet, safe from accountability, may make you feel better for the moment, but does not help others. Many who are emotional about guns seem to get into that "troll" mode.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

TrailNut said:


> Making emotional personal insults in the internet, safe from accountability, may make you feel better for the moment, but does not help others. Many who are emotional about guns seem to get into that "troll" mode.


Pardon? Aren't you the same person who was, just yesterday, on this thread making emotional personal insults? Or was all that "sheep" and "stupid" talk just you trying to be helpful?


----------



## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Silentfoe said:


> Thanks for that fantasy moment.


Yep, pure fantasy.
Guns in Hong Kong: Firearms, armed violence and gun law


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Zowie said:


> Yep, pure fantasy.
> Guns in Hong Kong: Firearms, armed violence and gun law


Crazy right? Good thing there's lies, damn lies and statistics right?

Here's an article from an equally nut job site.

Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters

I'm thinking you'd like to see a utopian society where we all just get along without guns, just like Hong Kong has huh? How do you feel about the death penalty because we're going to have to rev up the execution rate on death row if you'd like HKs type of "success".


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Silentfoe said:


> Crazy right? Good thing there's lies, damn lies and statistics right?
> 
> Here's an article from an equally nut job site.
> 
> Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters


I was expecting statistics in this article to refute the stats in the anti gun reference cited earlier. Do you have any?


----------



## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Silentfoe said:


> I'm thinking you'd like to see a utopian society where we all just get along without guns, just like Hong Kong has huh? How do you feel about the death penalty because we're going to have to rev up the execution rate on death row if you'd like HKs type of "success".


Since you choose not to verify what you say, here's an entry from Wikipedia: "Capital punishment in Hong Kong"

"Capital punishment in Hong Kong was formally abolished in 1993 (following the repealing of the Corporal Punishment Ordinance)."

Consider it a late Christmas gift.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Did you read the article? I'm not countering the stats. I am saying you Will be executed by the state for even owning one. Not the kind of society I want to live in.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Yes, I did read it. That's why I asked the question.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Hmm. Well we should just drop it. There will be no convincing on either side and it just doesn't matter on this forum.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Somehow I don't think you will drop it. My bookie has you at 5 more posts as the over/under. I'm betting on the over.


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

Silentfoe said:


> The one time I used my gun I had to put down a sheepdog that was literally coming through my frame to get me.


Silentfoe, are you sure the sheepdog wasn't a rattlesnake? You know, cuz rattlesnakes are the only animals handguns are effective against on the trail.



Trail_Blazer said:


> The only thing a gun helps with on the trail is a rattlesnake.


----------



## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

No dont drop it, I just opened a new bag of popcorn!


----------



## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

Guns are bad. 'nuff said.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Hawg said:


> Guns are bad. 'nuff said.


So is sniffing paint and posting on emptybeer.


----------



## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

AZ said:


> So is sniffing paint and posting on emptybeer.


It's glue, not paint...


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

Slash5 said:


> Holy crap, another one of these. Do a search, there are pages and pages of this. Don't need another one.


 There are pages and pages of wheel suggestion, clothing question, brake bleed, trail reviews, tire mounting tips, all repeated a million times on this site. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it don't belong here.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

Slow Danger said:


> Pardon? Aren't you the same person who was, just yesterday, on this thread making emotional personal insults? Or was all that "sheep" and "stupid" talk just you trying to be helpful?


Just demonstrating a general point, no particular person was specifically singled out. And no insult intended to anyone, just a general observation.

F you thought that was an insult you might be hyper sensitive?


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

From ABC News 20/20 on Gun Myths

Gun Myths Gone in Five Minutes: ABC News 20/20 | R.T.B.A. Co.


----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

Hawg said:


> Guns are bad. 'nuff said.


I know this is off topic, but if you think about it, you can't have the 1st amendment with out the 2nd amendment. To me the bill of rights is a good thing. But that is me.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

Hawg said:


> Guns are bad. 'nuff said.


Without guns we would not have any other rights or liberties, such as the freedom of expression, assembly, and the freedom from your religion.

elderly or weak persons could not defend themselves from murderers or rapists without guns: for example in 2013 a 19 year mother defended herself and her infant baby from a couple of home invaders in KY using a shotgun, a tool that VP Biden seems to recommend. while on a MTB a concealed handgun is handier than the Biden shotgun, for sure. BTW, I do not recommend that we MTBers carry a gun, just that there would a legal way to do so if you so choose to.

God may intended all of us to be born equal, but true equality may not have begun until the 1873 Colt Peacemaker in 45 long colt was widely produced.

Gun's a just a tool. Often it takes good people with guns to stop bad people with guns from killing or maiming.

Enjoy your rides and bring all your folks that rode with you back home safely.


----------



## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

TrailNut said:


> Without guns we would not have any other rights or liberties, such as the freedom of expression, assembly, and the freedom from your religion.
> 
> elderly or weak persons could not defend themselves from murderers or rapists without guns: for example in 2013 a 19 year mother defended herself and her infant baby from a couple of home invaders in KY using a shotgun, a tool that VP Biden seems to recommend. while on a MTB a concealed handgun is handier than the Biden shotgun, for sure. BTW, I do not recommend that we MTBers carry a gun, just that there would a legal way to do so if you so choose to.
> 
> ...


I can't believe you actually feel that way. With no guns, there would be no gun caused murders.

Did you ever consider that?


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

You guy's do realise this is headed in a political direction right. 
Please go to www.bikeguns.com for discussion thank you.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

Hawg said:


> I can't believe you actually feel that way. With no guns, there would be no gun caused murders.
> 
> Did you ever consider that?


and how would you impose your utopian fantasy world of no guns in the USA? Our nation was born of war with guns because British king wanted to confiscate the colonial guns: Thus was born the longest peaceful change-of-power constitutional republic in the history of mankind.

now I wish we can ride our MTBs in National Wilderness, legally, but due to Sen. Feinstein we may not do that: That's the same person, who owns guns, that might not be trilled with the choice of gun carrying while MTBing.

that would be an unfair world where only the criminals (such as rapists, muggers, burglars, murderers), that ignore laws, had guns.


----------



## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

TrailNut said:


> and how would you impose your utopian fantasy world of no guns in the USA? Our nation was born of war with guns because British king wanted to confiscate the colonial guns: Thus was born the longest peaceful change-of-power constitutional republic in the history of mankind.
> 
> now I wish we can ride our MTBs in National Wilderness, legally, but due to Sen. Feinstein we may not do that: That's the same person, who owns guns, that might not be trilled with the choice of gun carrying while MTBing.
> 
> that would be an unfair world where only the criminals (such as rapists, muggers, burglars, murderers), that ignore laws, had guns.


Answer this question if you would:

Would you do anything differently in history to correct the wrongs if you had the power to?

I would and it would involve guns among other things. Humanity would be smarter about life if it didn't have to opportunity to take another life so easily with the pull of a trigger. It's that simple. This talk about "rights" is a big laugh.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

TrailNut said:


> you thought that was an insult you might be hyper sensitive?


Not hyper-sensitive at all. When everything you write is lifted right off the pages of Guns and Ammo magazine, you know exactly what you're doing when you make the "general observation" that people who don't carry guns are sheep and likely stupid.

And you have some serious flawed logic that you've gleaned from your gun mags and revisionist histories. Gun ownership was never higher than it was in Colonial America right after the Revolt. Violent crime in America was never higher, per capita, than it was during Colonial times. To hear you tell it, all murders, robberies, and rapes quit happening back then because equality reigned. Or was that 100 years later when the Colt revolver came out? I'm having a hard time tracking down just when I got emancipated and guns started preventing violence on a wide scale.

I kinda like to think that statistics on violent crime have decreased ever since Colonial times because real equality, the kind that doesn't come at the barrel of the gun, has become more widespread in our country. But that's just the lame-stream media talking.


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

TrailNut said:


> Without guns we would not have any other rights or liberties, such as the freedom of expression, assembly, and the freedom from your religion.
> 
> elderly or weak persons could not defend themselves from murderers or rapists without guns: for example in 2013 a 19 year mother defended herself and her infant baby from a couple of home invaders in KY using a shotgun, a tool that VP Biden seems to recommend. while on a MTB a concealed handgun is handier than the Biden shotgun, for sure. BTW, I do not recommend that we MTBers carry a gun, just that there would a legal way to do so if you so choose to.
> 
> ...


seriously dude I live in Canada and we don't have near the amount of guns or are allowed concealed weapons and hand guns are banned. We have just as much freedom of expression (if not more), assembly and freedom from religion as you do. Do not use that as a argument for guns.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

TrailNut said:


> God may intended all of us to be born equal, but true equality may not have begun until the 1873 Colt Peacemaker in 45 long colt was widely produced.


I do like, however, that you've put guns ahead of God, and essentially call God ineffectual. That makes some sense.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

TrailNut said:


> and how would you impose your utopian fantasy world of no guns in the USA? Our nation was born of war with guns because British king wanted to confiscate the colonial guns: Thus was born the longest peaceful change-of-power constitutional republic in the history of mankind.
> 
> now I wish we can ride our MTBs in National Wilderness, legally, but due to Sen. Feinstein we may not do that: That's the same person, who owns guns, that might not be trilled with the choice of gun carrying while MTBing.
> 
> that would be an unfair world where only the criminals (such as rapists, muggers, burglars, murderers), that ignore laws, had guns.


Ill-conceived, ill-informed and ill-advised post mate, reinforced by your next offering... if you really wanted to rain on your own parade you couldn't have done it better. Try actually reading some history books with an open mind.


----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

It is amazing how people forget that the rifle has fed alot of people, and continues to feed my family.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

tim208 said:


> It is amazing how people forget that the rifle has fed alot of people, and continues to feed my family.


You take your rifle to the grocery store?

Seriously, that has zipnuts to do with anything here...


----------



## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

rockerc said:


> You take your rifle to the grocery store?
> 
> Seriously, that has zipnuts to do with anything here...


Ill-conceived, ill-informed and ill-advised post mate.

The same could be said for your statement.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

irishpitbull said:


> Ill-conceived, ill-informed and ill-advised post mate.
> 
> The same could be said for your statement.


And the pitbull snarls


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

irishpitbull said:


> Ill-conceived, ill-informed and ill-advised post mate.
> 
> The same could be said for your statement.


+1. Many times the shrillest voice is the simply the most fearful. Like when you get a bunch of city slickers in the "wilderness". Kinda fun to observe till they calm down, and I must say very similar to livestock when you move them, they beller and bawl for a day or two until they finally realize the world didn't end. 

Seriously folks, there is a huge divide between the urban world and the mountain world, and the mountain world that urban folks perceive doesn't exist, and vice versa too. We all do well to listen and speak respectfully in hopes of gaining a little wisdom.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)




----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

rocker

which grocery store stocks elk? the meat of choice for my family. steroid free, free range and very tasty. I know where it came from and I know the meat has been taken care of. Besides I didn't know steaks came from the grocery store. I thought they came from animals. 

I enjoy the mountain life, not the city life, the rifle and chain saw are 2 very important tools to me. I do understand a lot of people will never need them in there life. But others do need them in there life. If that is a life you choose, not to live, cool, I choose to live the life, I want. I like getting my food and heat from the mountains that I live in. Personally it is part of that smaller footprint thing. wood heat is renewable and so is elk meat.


----------



## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

TrailNut said:


> Thus was born the longest peaceful change-of-power constitutional republic in the history of mankind.
> 
> now I wish we can ride our MTBs in National Wilderness


I don't know what part of US history has been peaceful......war is basically the US normal.

As far as riding in the National Wilderness I know some areas are closed...to bikes and carrying guns ain't gonna help get them opened up.


----------



## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

tim208 said:


> rocker
> 
> which grocery store stocks elk? the meat of choice for my family. steroid free, free range and very tasty.
> 
> ...


No basically you choose a life the requires those tools that doesn't mean you hafta choose that life.

In the broad scheme of things the population of NA would have to be less than probably 10MM to allow everyone to choose your lifestyle....

So your choosen lifestyle is not sustainable.....unless of course you havve no children and a plan to reduce the population.....

Shades of madmen bombers.


----------



## Lawson Raider (Jul 24, 2006)

You just never know what you will find on the trail - last week they found a body of a murdered man in the bathroom at the lake where I frequently go mountain biking. Just imagine if you had been sitting in the stall when the suspects dragged the body into the bathroom to dump it - you are now a witness and well you could find yourself being body #2 pretty easily.

I have never encountered a situation personally where a firearm was necessary but you just never know if/when you will find yourself in that situation. Of course, where I mountain bike firearms are not allowed on the property so not sure how many folks actually carry secretly while they ride.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

jeffscott said:


> No basically you choose a life the requires those tools that doesn't mean you hafta choose that life.
> 
> In the broad scheme of things the population of NA would have to be less than probably 10MM to allow everyone to choose your lifestyle....
> 
> ...


There were over 100 million natives in North America when Columbus landed so even the basic premise of your argument is incorrect, not to mention that the lifestyle you support is really the one should be questioned as whether it is sustainable. Nice little dig there at the end too, resort to insults when all else fails.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

tim208 said:


> rocker
> 
> which grocery store stocks elk? the meat of choice for my family. steroid free, free range and very tasty. I know where it came from and I know the meat has been taken care of. Besides I didn't know steaks came from the grocery store. I thought they came from animals.
> 
> I enjoy the mountain life, not the city life, the rifle and chain saw are 2 very important tools to me. I do understand a lot of people will never need them in there life. But others do need them in there life. If that is a life you choose, not to live, cool, I choose to live the life, I want. I like getting my food and heat from the mountains that I live in. Personally it is part of that smaller footprint thing. wood heat is renewable and so is elk meat.


Bully for you Tim, or rather elk... as mentioned, this lifestyle is impractical and impossible for 99.9% of the population, but please do not quote me on that statistic, it's probably an ill-informed and biased quasi-religious quackery. Off-the-grid lifestyles are becoming harder to maintain, and sometimes I wonder whether the preppers wouldn't prefer if the rest of the population were to turn magically overnight into zombies so they could put all that investment to practical use. Not realistic tho, at least not in the supposedly civilised and enlightened society some of us wish to live in. If everyone wanted a share of the lifestyle you prefer, you'd be running out of ammunition fighting them off, but luckily most people are content to enjoy the mountains and wilderness from a bicycle or on foot.


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

Could you just STFU and find another thead and let us talk about the options for CCW while biking? 

We get it, your a liberal pansy that doesn't like guns, and couldn't survive if you didn't have a job or modern society to lean on. You got a previous thread on the same topic closed because you seem to think someone gives a **** about your opinion. We don't, move along.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

AZ said:


> There were over 100 million natives in North America when Columbus landed so even the basic premise of your argument is incorrect, not to mention that the lifestyle you support is really the one should be questioned as whether it is sustainable. Nice little dig there at the end too, resort to insults when all else fails.


What I have seen AZ is that there are no concrete records of the total number, but estimates vary from approx 3M to 20M... where did you get the 100M? The question of sustainability is moot either way as I see it...


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

rockerc said:


> Bully for you Tim, or rather elk... as mentioned, this lifestyle is impractical and impossible for 99.9% of the population, but please do not quote me on that statistic, it's probably an ill-informed and biased quasi-religious quackery. Off-the-grid lifestyles are becoming harder to maintain, and sometimes I wonder whether the preppers wouldn't prefer if the rest of the population were to turn magically overnight into zombies so they could put all that investment to practical use. Not realistic tho, at least not in the supposedly civilised and enlightened society some of us wish to live in. If everyone wanted a share of the lifestyle you prefer, you'd be running out of ammunition fighting them off, but luckily most people are content to enjoy the mountains and wilderness from a bicycle or on foot.


Why do you presume that all mountain people or people who hunt live off grid or are Preppers?


----------



## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

He is just attempting to cast a negative image on hard working people who don't adhere to his vision of Utopia. Nice try rocker but your agenda is transparent.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

steveohio said:


> Could you just STFU and find another thead and let us talk about the options for CCW while biking?
> 
> We get it, your a liberal pansy that doesn't like guns, and couldn't survive if you didn't have a job or modern society to lean on. You got a previous thread on the same topic closed because you seem to think someone gives a **** about your opinion. We don't, move along.


Talkin' to me?!? You can talk about whatever you want whenever you wish, I am not stopping you. Just voicing my opinion as is my right. If it bothers you that much I suggest you ask yourself why? As for being what you describe, if that is your perception, have at it! I couldn't give 2 shits what you think of me or people like me.


----------



## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

dave54 said:


> Revealing whether I carry or not defeats the purpose of concealed carry.


^^^It sounds like you want to sneak up on someone with your weapon.
Prevention and avoidance is always better than the confrontation.

No, I don't carry. I am often passing through areas where it would be illegal. And yes, murders have been committed locally in peaceful areas in the quest for drug money or in fits of rage. Head on a swivel is helpful.

Try:

https://www.google.com/search?site=....1.0....0...1ac.1.32.img..0.1.135.e7J0qhaMUlQ

or

fanny pack holster - Yahoo Image Search Results
(I know, it's soooo uncool  )

or

Camelbak gives the Urban Assault some teeth with the UA Concealed | Military Times GearScout

TARFU's Camelbak Urban Assault Review (Picture Heavy) | EDCForums

This forum is obviously not the only source of info.

-F


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

Good, can you leave then? This is a thread about how to carry while on a bike, not about your personal opinions on things you obviously have no clue about.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

AZ said:


> Why do you presume that all mountain people or people who hunt live off grid or are Preppers?


I don't remember saying that AZ? If there is a sustainable balance to be found then great!


----------



## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

My winter carry. Loaded with .410 "shotgun" shells for the trail.


----------



## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

AZ said:


> There were over 100 million natives in North America when Columbus landed so even the basic premise of your argument is incorrect, not to mention that the lifestyle you support is really the one should be questioned as whether it is sustainable. Nice little dig there at the end too, resort to insults when all else fails.


Well the low estimate is 10 MM average is 50 MM and some experts argue it dould have been has high as 100 MM.....

So since right now we have 250mm plus 35 mm Us and canada = 285mm

So you need to kill off a minumum of 185mm people or a max of 275 mm people to even start to get to where a subsistance hunting/gathering/farming lifestyle is sustainable....

Some how I don't think the big difference is whether 185mm die or 275mm die both sound at least a little drastic.


----------



## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

steveohio said:


> Could you just STFU and find another thead and let us talk about the options for CCW while biking?
> 
> We get it, your a liberal pansy that doesn't like guns, and couldn't survive if you didn't have a job or modern society to lean on. You got a previous thread on the same topic closed because you seem to think someone gives a **** about your opinion. We don't, move along.


I don't carry a gun betcha I can survive as well as anyone....gun or not.

Still don't like guns and kiling.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

floydlippencott said:


> He is just attempting to cast a negative image on hard working people who don't adhere to his vision of Utopia. Nice try rocker but your agenda is transparent.


Care to let me know how you visualise my 'transparent agenda' FL? My 'vision of Utopia' does include the idea that people can proceed with their lives without feeling the need to carry a deadly weapon, that much is obvious and stated previously. I see absolutely nothing wrong in that, and will pursue that 'agenda' whenever I am able. As for 'attempting to cast a negative image on hard-working people who do not agree...', that is a sweeping generalisation that seems born out of some kind of fear, or that all people who do not share my vision are hard-working individuals... I am not sure what you mean. You have no real idea of my 'transparent agenda', and I suspect you have no desire to find out.


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

Noone likes killing. Except nutball psychopaths.

And also, a family of 4 can survive(self sustain) off of 2 acres of land, so your retarded little scenario where we have to kill off a certain # of people to live off the land is so cockamaimy I can't believe anyone is naive or stupid enough to believe that crap.

You do realize we waste more food than we use in this country right? 
A good portion of that is from having to haul it thousands of miles away, the bigger portion of that waste is from jackasses who don't care because their lazy asses can just "go buy" more food at the local grocery store. Its disgusting how stupid and lazy the average person has become.

I'd love to see you "survive" out in the wild without a gun. Where are you gonna get your protein and calories from, earthworms? How do you plan on protecting yourself?
Guns sure aren't required, but they make things a helluvalot easier, because its a tool, just like a chainsaw, a screwdriver, or a dildo. Dam things do nothing without someone that knows how to use them properly.

People have also been killed without guns from the dawn of time funny how that works.


----------



## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

jeffscott said:


> I don't carry a gun betcha I can survive as well as anyone....gun or not.
> 
> Still don't like guns and kiling.


Now we all know you are full of bullsh!t. They only way a liberal survives in the woods is if there is a Starbucks, Wholefoods, and Apple store close by.


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

tim208 said:


> rocker
> 
> which grocery store stocks elk? the meat of choice for my family. steroid free, free range and very tasty. I know where it came from and I know the meat has been taken care of. Besides I didn't know steaks came from the grocery store. I thought they came from animals.
> 
> I enjoy the mountain life, not the city life, the rifle and chain saw are 2 very important tools to me. I do understand a lot of people will never need them in there life. But others do need them in there life. If that is a life you choose, not to live, cool, I choose to live the life, I want. I like getting my food and heat from the mountains that I live in. Personally it is part of that smaller footprint thing. wood heat is renewable and so is elk meat.


That is good, we are not talking about hunters and their rifles, I don't contest your right to hunt with a rifle. What this argument is about is concealment of a hand gun while riding.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Could someone explain what all this has to do with a Sunday afternoon bike ride.


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

rockerc said:


> I don't remember saying that AZ? If there is a sustainable balance to be found then great!


Rocker I do agree with most of what you said but hunting is a way of life for a lot of people. People survive in the northern Canada with hunting because it is hard and expensive to get every day food up there from lack of transportation.


----------



## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

Bears bro, Bears.


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

irishpitbull said:


> Bears bro, Bears.


I don't think a hand gun is going to do much to the bear other than piss it off.


----------



## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

deke505 said:


> I don't think a hand gun is going to do much to the bear other than piss it off.


Apparently you didn't see my gun I posted. Please review former posts.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

deke505 said:


> I don't think a hand gun is going to do much to the bear other than piss it off.


Not the correct one.


----------



## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

deke505 said:


> I don't think a hand gun is going to do much to the bear other than piss it off.


Grizzly Bear Shot and Killed By Hikers In Denali National Park and Preserve | National Parks Traveler


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

irishpitbull said:


> Grizzly Bear Shot and Killed By Hikers In Denali National Park and Preserve | National Parks Traveler


And your point is?
Yes a .45 cal. Will kill a Grizzly if you're lucky.
And as I stated way up the thread the only time I would carry is if I were in Grizzly bear country. Or if I was riding in N.Y.C.


----------



## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> And your point is?
> Yes a .45 cal. Will kill a Grizzly if you're lucky.
> And as I stated way up the thread the only time I would carry is if I were in Grizzly bear country. Or if I was riding in N.Y.C.


Detroit.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

irishpitbull said:


> Detroit.


Yes I concur.


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

irishpitbull said:


> Detroit.


nah that is when you need a tank


----------



## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

I live in bear country and we routinely carry pistols for defense against bears. Their big calibers but their pistols.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

deke505 said:


> Rocker I do agree with most of what you said but hunting is a way of life for a lot of people. People survive in the northern Canada with hunting because it is hard and expensive to get every day food up there from lack of transportation.


Deke, I never said anything against hunting. Hunting for food or protection is fine by me as long as it is done responsibly, and where necessary. Personally, I abhor taking any life, but that is just me, and many others also. As for 'liberals' not being able to survive without Starbucks etc. I am splitting my sides at the posturing that produced this remark!
I am actually a British Army certified marksman, so no stranger to guns, I have been held up at knifepoint on 2 occasions, once in NYC and once in London, shot at several times by a guy in NYC, and looked down gun barrels brandished at me in N. Ireland, Botswana, and Lebanon. On none of those occasions have I felt the need to use a firearm, or felt naked without one. Maybe I am lucky, and I have yet to meet a grizzly up in the hills, so I cannot comment on that scenario other than to agree with DJ that I would have to be very lucky to have the necessary gun handy enough to use it, or to be able to use it effectively if I did.


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

rockerc said:


> ...shot at several times by a guy in NYC


Phukin NYC cops.

Teach you not to jaywalk, though, huh?


----------



## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

rockerc said:


> As for 'liberals' not being able to survive without Starbucks etc. I am splitting my sides at the posturing that produced this remark!


As you can tell from my posts they are fun. Why so serious?

British you say, the same British that got there ass handed to them by a bunch of farmers and hillbillies?


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

net wurker said:


> Phukin NYC cops.
> 
> Teach you not to jaywalk, though, huh?


Sheesh! It was my first day ever in the US! 1970 something, and I got that! I mean, who doesn't drive on the left side of the road?!?


----------



## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

rockerc said:


> As for 'liberals' not being able to survive without Starbucks etc. I am splitting my sides at the posturing that produced this remark!.


I'd like to this guy survive a day on my turf.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

rockerc said:


> I am actually a British Army certified marksman, so no stranger to guns, I have been held up at knifepoint on 2 occasions, once in NYC and once in London, shot at several times by a guy in NYC, and looked down gun barrels brandished at me in N. Ireland, Botswana, and Lebanon. On none of those occasions have I felt the need to use a firearm, or felt naked without one. Maybe I am lucky, and I have yet to meet a grizzly up in the hills, so I cannot comment on that scenario other than to agree with DJ that I would have to be very lucky to have the necessary gun handy enough to use it, or to be able to use it effectively if I did.


Really?? I can not compute your mindset Rocker.. Honestly, I am completely at a loss for words here.


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

Hard core Pacifist.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

net wurker said:


> Hard core Pacifist.


Hand me a feather!


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

sodak said:


> Really?? I can not compute your mindset Rocker.. Honestly, I am completely at a loss for words here.


I agree. SMH.

I've never had a gun pointed at me, but I have been mugged at knifepoint in Chicago, as well as stalked on the streets. Did not have my gun at me at the time, and if I did, I probably wouldn't have used it either time, as I felt my life wasn't in danger and I had the ability to escape.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

steveohio said:


> I agree. SMH.
> 
> I've never had a gun pointed at me, but I have been mugged at knifepoint in Chicago, as well as stalked on the streets. Did not have my gun at me at the time, and if I did, I probably wouldn't have used it either time, as I felt my life wasn't in danger and I had the ability to escape.


I spent three lovely tours to the sand box in support of OIF/OEF running convoy with the Army from Kuwait to Northern Iraq, plus some fun time in Afghanistan. While being fired upon from random insurgents on the side of the road or from rooftops, the first thing I was thankful for was my M4. The idea of not wanting to use it, or not feeling I needed it in that scenario does not make one bit of sense to me.

Rocker - (honestly please) How could you possibly serve in the Armed Forces and be willing to defend your country, or better yet, protect your brothers and sisters in arms with that type of mindset? As much as a good portion of society in this country want you to believe, you can NOT hug an enemy combatant to make him like you. I really am interested in your thoughts. PM me if you don't want to post here.

**edit- I apologize for aiding the derailment of this thread.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Yes I always conceal carry when I ride. It's a large caliber love gun that could go off at any time.


----------



## Tystevens (Nov 2, 2011)

sodak said:


> Really?? I can not compute your mindset Rocker.. Honestly, I am completely at a loss for words here.


Well, I can't speak for Mr. Rockerc, but in my mind, it is a completely understandable mindset. He's lived a long and adventurous life, has [allegedly [no offence intended, Rocker!]] experienced a couple of the scenarios that pro-carry people cite as the reason why they carry in the first place, and is alive and unscathed to tell about it. All this despite not carrying a gun. The flip side is, who knows what might have happened if he had a gun in one of those situations?

Honestly, there are scenarios that I've experienced when I was younger and lacked some discretion, that, in hindsight, make me glad I did not have a gun on me. My life (and someone else's life) could be far different.


----------



## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

Mookie said:


> Yes I always conceal carry when I ride. It's a large caliber love gun that could go off at any time.


Your lack of gun knowledge and handling is showing. Guns just don't go off.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

irishpitbull said:


> Your lack of gun knowledge and handling is showing. Guns just don't go off.


He's not talking about his weapon.


----------



## Gordon Shumway (Sep 17, 2012)

I don't need a gun, I always carry my Pepsi License to Chill. If a bad animal or mtber rapist approaches me I just whip it out and say "whoa cougar/man/whatever.... CHILL!!!" And they always acknowledge it and leave me alone. :thumbsup:


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Since my mindset seems to be a subject for discussion, let me just say that I do try to learn from experience, and I do now try to look at things with an open and enquiring mind, and better myself in my eyes. many people do not agree with the conclusions I have reached, but they are my conclusions, and many agree with them.
My Grandfather was lucky enough to survive the entirety of WWI on the Western Front as a gunner, and my father was assigned to the Indian Army and saw action in Burma during the latter part of WWII, and during the partition on the NW Frontier during that bloody struggle there. Neither one of them was shy about sharing the horror that they experienced there, and my experiences pale into insignificance alongside those and probably yours Sodak. My other Grandfather fought at Gallipoli and the Western Front, and became a diplomat afterwards. I think perhaps I inherited some of his genetic makeup!
I have never said that I want to hug the enemy, neither do I believe that this is a realistic option, and in any case, this is not what is under discussion here. I do in fact believe that, like my antecedents experienced in the trenches, there are conflicts that are pointless and ill-conceived, and waste life and human resources needlessly. These resources could be put to much better use in my view, but I will not go into that here. 
What I do say is that I see it as being a complete mistake to think that by arming the populace, it makes a safer and better society. In my view this is a short-sighted viewpoint and we should be looking at other avenues of action to remedy this perceived need to carry a gun in today's society. How could I believe such a thing when everything in me screams that in order to make a better society to live, guns cannot play a part. I do understand that this is seen as an unrealistic Utopian dream by many, but I believe it passionately, and when I see threads like this that are basically promoting wider use of guns, of COURSE I have to respond. 
I apologise if, in this hotbed of irony, misplaced humor, hyperbole and petty schoolyard insults, I have let my demeanour slip sometimes, but I do not respond well to stereotypical labeling.
Oh, and I can say "eat lead M'Fukker" in 14 languages, and now ask for directions to Starbucks in the same 14...


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Gordon Shumway said:


> I don't need a gun, I always carry my Pepsi License to Chill. If a bad animal or mtber rapist approaches me I just whip it out and say "whoa cougar/man/whatever.... CHILL!!!" And they always acknowledge it and leave me alone. :thumbsup:
> 
> View attachment 861324


It works every time trust me. Although I had a Grizzly that gave me a funny look once. It took some convincing but he finally realized it was legit.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

PS... I need to learn to speak Grizzly...


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

AZ said:


> He's not talking about his weapon.


I think he is, just not a gun.


----------



## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

AZ said:


> He's not talking about his weapon.


Meh... got it.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

rockerc said:


> Since my mindset seems to be a subject for discussion, let me just say that I do try to learn from experience, and I do now try to look at things with an open and enquiring mind, and better myself in my eyes. many people do not agree with the conclusions I have reached, but they are my conclusions, and many agree with them.
> My Grandfather was lucky enough to survive the entirety of WWI on the Western Front as a gunner, and my father was assigned to the Indian Army and saw action in Burma during the latter part of WWII, and during the partition on the NW Frontier during that bloody struggle there. Neither one of them was shy about sharing the horror that they experienced there, and my experiences pale into insignificance alongside those and probably yours Sodak. My other Grandfather fought at Gallipoli and the Western Front, and became a diplomat afterwards. I think perhaps I inherited some of his genetic makeup!
> I have never said that I want to hug the enemy, neither do I believe that this is a realistic option, and in any case, this is not what is under discussion here. I do in fact believe that, like my antecedents experienced in the trenches, there are conflicts that are pointless and ill-conceived, and waste life and human resources needlessly. These resources could be put to much better use in my view, but I will not go into that here.
> What I do say is that I see it as being a complete mistake to think that by arming the populace, it makes a safer and better society. In my view this is a short-sighted viewpoint and we should be looking at other avenues of action to remedy this perceived need to carry a gun in today's society. How could I believe such a thing when everything in me screams that in order to make a better society to live, guns cannot play a part. I do understand that this is seen as an unrealistic Utopian dream by many, but I believe it passionately, and when I see threads like this that are basically promoting wider use of guns, of COURSE I have to respond.
> ...


No apologies, you are a valued member here and your opinion has merit and is valued. Without discourse there can be no progress. While I do not subscribe to those beliefs I can respect your right to them. We do not always have to agree and that point is sometimes overlooked in the fray.

Peace, AZ


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

Thank you for sharing/explaining that. You do not need to apologize, as I agree with AZ entirely. I was honestly interested in why you have the view you do.



rockerc said:


> My Grandfather was lucky enough to survive the entirety of WWI on the Western Front as a gunner, and my father was assigned to the Indian Army and saw action in Burma during the latter part of WWII, and during the partition on the NW Frontier during that bloody struggle there. Neither one of them was shy about sharing the horror that they experienced there, and my experiences pale into insignificance alongside those and probably yours Sodak. My other Grandfather fought at Gallipoli and the Western Front, and became a diplomat afterwards. I think perhaps I inherited some of his genetic makeup!
> 
> *-First off, the soldiers of WWI & WW2 experienced the absolute worst in war. These men/soldiers endured hardships and horror that the modern soldier couldn't even comprehend, more less tolerate. The military today is technology driven and pretty much eliminated putting soldiers into the battles like those in the WW's. The only soldiers today that could possibly handle that type of war are the "elite" seals/rangers, and I bet most of them couldn't cut it. The biggest and most difficult problem in wars today is that our "enemy" does not wear a uniform. It's all gorilla warefare and it started in Vietnam. But, I digress...*
> 
> ...


----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

The pepsi chill card is fricken funny.

rocker it is obvious you are a very intelligent person. Where do you reside now? 
USA or Great Britian. Just curious. IF you are ever in north Idaho I will buy you a beer.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Y'all should know that there are many Libruls who support the Second Amendment. There are also many Conservatives who are put off by the Guns n' Ammo, fear mongering rush to influence people into arming. One doesn't have to even look at the statistics to understand that folks are arming themselves at a pretty alarming rate. It's one thing to support the 2nd Amendment in all forms and literalness. It's another to condone the irresponsibility being promulgated by the Soldier of Fortune/Don't Tread on Me set. Obviously, the majority of gun owners don't fall into that subset, but that subset's rhetoric and strategies are having undue influence.

One of the great moral dilemmas this thread has posed for me is the one introduced by Silentfoe. While I support his right to conceal and carry, and admire his self-sufficiency, I'm thrown by the fact that he carries in order to protect the high school kids he coaches. Now, it's not that I think it's necessarily a bad idea, and I acknowledge that he is well within the law of his state, but were I a parent of one of those kids I have to ask do I have a right to know that he's carrying. I mean that's an interesting question. I don't have an answer. Most likely I would be fine with it. But I do feel like I have some right to question why, when, and where he feels like it's important to be carrying/using the weapon. I've had some crazy ass coaches in high school, and if I knew they were carrying weapons around kids, I might not want my child to be one of them.

Oh, and I've had guns pulled/brandished in my direction 3 times through no fault of my own. Two of those times were over-zealous gun owners who had no business or right doing so. Now, these folks were likely nuts, and not representative of gun owners in general…the third guy was definitely nutso, but none of them were attempting a violent crime. They were all into intimidation. Thank the odds I've never been the victim of violent crime.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

rockerc said:


> Ill-conceived, ill-informed and ill-advised post mate, reinforced by your next offering... if you really wanted to rain on your own parade you couldn't have done it better. Try actually reading some history books with an open mind.


it's all good that you disagree, but you offer absolutely zero facts or reasoning.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

jeffscott said:


> I don't know what part of US history has been peaceful......war is basically the US normal.
> 
> As far as riding in the National Wilderness I know some areas are closed...to bikes and carrying guns ain't gonna help get them opened up.


I was referring to peaceful, predictable, transition of power/government/Preisdent. King George was amazed that President Washington step down on his own accord.

I did mention that our nation was born from war. And we've made war quite often, I will add, not all of them were avoidable, but we're not perfect, just better than the other imperialists of the times.

To be clear, I do not necessarily advocate carrying a gun while MTB riding, but that none of us are made into criminals if we choose that freedom/liberty.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

sodak said:


> View attachment 861237


#2A! yeah, baby, yeah!!!


----------



## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

rockerc said:


> PS... I need to learn to speak Grizzly...


I can't teach you to speak it but I can teach you to understand it. The swear words are the toughest because you're usually running very fast when you hear them.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

Hawg said:


> I can't believe you actually feel that way. With no guns, there would be no gun caused murders.
> 
> Did you ever consider that?


 No kidding, they would all be by the means MOST murders in the world are committed, bludgeoning and machete. You can take the guns away, all that does is stack the deck in the strong murders favor.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

deke505 said:


> seriously dude I live in Canada and we don't have near the amount of guns or are allowed concealed weapons and hand guns are banned. We have just as much freedom of expression (if not more), assembly and freedom from religion as you do. Do not use that as a argument for guns.


Really? Ask Mark Marek what he thinks about that so called freedom.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

Lawson Raider said:


> You just never know what you will find on the trail - last week they found a body of a murdered man in the bathroom at the lake where I frequently go mountain biking. Just imagine if you had been sitting in the stall when the suspects dragged the body into the bathroom to dump it - you are now a witness and well you could find yourself being body #2 pretty easily.
> 
> I have never encountered a situation personally where a firearm was necessary but you just never know if/when you will find yourself in that situation. Of course, where I mountain bike firearms are not allowed on the property so not sure how many folks actually carry secretly while they ride.


The majority of those who came across a situation where they needed a gun and did not have one are no longer around to tell you about it.


----------



## Gumbi4Prez (Jan 2, 2014)

Don't think the OP had this in mind.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Gumbi4Prez said:


> Don't think the OP had this in mind.


Maybe. But the OP claims to have read the other threads on mtbr with this same subject matter. They all end the same. Don't know what made the OP think this would be any different. Note: start a thread involving guns, chaos reigns, then the thread gets locked. Repeat 3 months later.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

tim208 said:


> The pepsi chill card is fricken funny.
> 
> rocker it is obvious you are a very intelligent person. Where do you reside now?
> USA or Great Britian. Just curious. IF you are ever in north Idaho I will buy you a beer.


Like you Tim, I live in one of the most beautiful countries in the world, and like you I live in a beautiful part of it, only much farther south just outside Tucson AZ. I love N Idaho, but it is a little cold at this time of year for these old bones! I appreciate your offer of a beer, but it might have to be a coffee since I don't partake!


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

musikron said:


> Really? Ask Mark Marek what he thinks about that so called freedom.


Please enlighten me on the freedoms that I as a Canadian don't have? And who is Mark Marek?

Edited just googled him: so this guy is your hero huh?

Marek says posting grisly video was a public service, claims he?s being persecuted | CTV Edmonton News


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

Its called freedom of press. 

It has nothing to do with whether some likes or hates him.

We used to have it in this country too, before the political war machine bought the media out.


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

Can anyone imagine what old-days American teevee might have been like if the U.S. was a non-gun society?


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Gumbi4Prez said:


> Don't think the OP had this in mind.


The OP simply is a troll. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^maybe, maybe not. In any case, traffic was passed despite the food fight.


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

net wurker said:


> Can anyone imagine what old-days American teevee might have been like if the U.S. was a non-gun society?


Uh, we'd all be speaking cherokee if that was the case..


----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

net wurker said:


> Can anyone imagine what old-days American teevee might have been like if the U.S. was a non-gun society?


fricken funny,

rocker, so you moved from a gun free country to a state with more guns than all of great britian? ironic?

If I am ever you way or you my way, we can shoot some tannenite. It goes:

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

steveohio said:


> Its called freedom of press.
> 
> It has nothing to do with whether some likes or hates him.
> 
> We used to have it in this country too, before the political war machine bought the media out.


Hate to break this to you, showing a real life gory murder of some one being hacked up alive, as well as glorifying the murderer has nothing to do with freedom of the press.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

steveohio said:


> Uh, we'd all be speaking cherokee if that was the case..


The Spanish conquistadors, who conquested the desert southwest where I live, did so with swords, spears, armor, and horses. Before that, The Mayan's preyed on them with the same weapons, except no horses. Size matters more with those weapons, but that's fine with me. Big people are nicer.


----------



## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Don't forget the massive percentage of native deaths from disease... didn't have to lift a finger for that.


----------



## Tystevens (Nov 2, 2011)

Slow Danger said:


> One of the great moral dilemmas this thread has posed for me is the one introduced by Silentfoe. While I support his right to conceal and carry, and admire his self-sufficiency, I'm thrown by the fact that he carries in order to protect the high school kids he coaches. Now, it's not that I think it's necessarily a bad idea, and I acknowledge that he is well within the law of his state, but were I a parent of one of those kids I have to ask do I have a right to know that he's carrying. I mean that's an interesting question. I don't have an answer. Most likely I would be fine with it. But I do feel like I have some right to question why, when, and where he feels like it's important to be carrying/using the weapon. I've had some crazy ass coaches in high school, and if I knew they were carrying weapons around kids, I might not want my child to be one of them.


This causes me concern, too. Not SilentFoe specifically (I'm familiar with his qualifications, experience and training due to interactions on other websites, and believe I'd be completely comfortable with him carrying around me or my kids on a ride or elsewhere), but generally the guy who is a little overenthusiastic about protecting everyone.

Here's a real world anecdote of the worst demonstration of gun safety I've ever seen; it occurred at an official Scout camp a few years back (where you're not even supposed to have guns in the first place per BSA policy). A rattlesnake was found near our troop's area. I have dealt with plenty of rattlers before, no big deal as long as you know where it is. As myself and the other scout leader in our troop were weighing our options to remove it, word traveled quickly and other boys started showing up. There is probably 15 boys standing around looking at the snake (from a safe distance, of course), and all of a sudden some leader from another troop comes rushing in and before we know it, he starts blasting away at the snake with a handgun from about 15 ft away. Kids standing near where he is shooting, camp sites directly behind him, everything you would not want in that situation. Some kids are running to take cover, other kids are laughing ("this is so cool!"), and I'm running toward the guy screaming at him to stop shooting before he hurts someone. We can hear bullets ricocheting (you know that funny noise they make when they get out of spiral), rocks flying. It was crazy.

He gets 8 or 9 shots off before he stops shooting and starts shouting "is everyone ok ..." It was all I could do not to flatten the guy. The snake wasn't even dead. We're yelling at him for being a moron and he seems legitimately confused as to why we're yelling at him for saving our lives, he just kept saying "I didn't want anyone to get hurt by that damn thing ..." The camp directors then came and removed him, and I don't know what happened to him after that. Well, except for several of the council guys stood around looking at the snake not knowing what to do, until I got a shovel and put it out of its misery. Scout professionals are useless in the actual outdoors. But I digress ...

This guy clearly had no understanding of what he was doing. It appeared to us that he really wanted to use his gun, and wanted to be a hero. Those three things are a bad combination. I'm sure he thought he was doing the "smart" thing, and brought his gun along to protect his boys if needed. But we are all very fortunate he did not make an innocuous situation very bad for himself and an innocent bystander.

So that creates a quandry. On one hand, I do bring a gun along on our Scout trips when the situation dictates in my mind. I certainly do not bring one to a large council camp, but when we are backpacking in the Unitas this summer, for example, I will have one in my pack. I do feel a responsibility to protect them. On the other hand, it has been my experience that an overenthusiastic protector can make a situation far worse by introducing a gun into it.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Wonder how the first violent crime in human history was committed? Probably just brute strength? Wonder when the first weapon was used? Likely a rock? The other dude had access to rocks too. He probably said: Maybe I'll never need a rock to bean a dude upside the head, but better to have it than wished I did.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

The human animal is an evil species and will always find ever increasingly efficient means in which to eradicate each other.


----------



## Sevenrats (Jan 2, 2014)

Slow Danger said:


> Wonder how the first violent crime in human history was committed? Probably just brute strength? Wonder when the first weapon was used? Likely a rock? The other dude had access to rocks too. He probably said: Maybe I'll never need a rock to bean a dude upside the head, but better to have it than wished I did.


There is no first violent crime in human history because we evolved from lesser primates and before that other animals. Where human history actually begins is tough to pin down. All animals fight. Mostly for food, sex and territory. Usually they fight until one backs down. Very few animals will go so far as to deliberately murder one of their own kind. Chimpanzees will attack and then pursue and kill another chimp. A better question is when did humans (and chimps) develop hate and vengeance?

Oh and the first weapon must have been a rock.


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

Sevenrats said:


> A better question is when did humans (and chimps) develop hate and vengeance?


When Internet Forums first came along?


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

AZ said:


> The human animal is an evil species and will always find ever increasingly efficient means in which to eradicate each other.


Much to Rocker's dismay.


----------



## Sevenrats (Jan 2, 2014)

net wurker said:


> When Internet Forums first came along?


No. They just make it easier. And safer!


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Tystevens- So the guy shot at the snake multiple times, didn't hurt the snake, or anyone else, and then you killed it with a more appropriate weapon, all needlessly and with much drama. I'm sure the scouts learned a lesson or two from the scenario, maybe not the lesson that was intended. 

What if the guy had started shooting the scouts, what would you have done then?


----------



## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

bsieb said:


> Tystevens- So the guy shot at the snake multiple times, didn't hurt the snake, or anyone else, and then you killed it with a more appropriate weapon, all needlessly and with much drama. I'm sure the scouts learned a lesson or two from the scenario, maybe not the lesson that was intended.
> 
> What if the guy had started shooting the scouts, what would you have done then?


I would have held up a "gun free zone" sign. Those seem to work.


----------



## Gordon Shumway (Sep 17, 2012)

irishpitbull said:


> I would have held up a "gun free zone" sign. Those seem to work.


Not as well as the Pepsi License to Chill though! That snake would have backed right up in the first place had he waved the card. Would have also stopped the shooting right away if the guy saw the card.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Tystevens said:


> So that creates a quandry. On one hand, I do bring a gun along on our Scout trips when the situation dictates in my mind. I certainly do not bring one to a large council camp, but when we are backpacking in the Unitas this summer, for example, I will have one in my pack. I do feel a responsibility to protect them. On the other hand, it has been my experience that an overenthusiastic protector can make a situation far worse by introducing a gun into it.


I have seen a version of that Scout Camp guy so many times. And as I mentioned, I've had guns pulled on me by "lawful citizens exercising their rights" unlawfully. Now rights are rights and all, but I think it's a very real question for gun toters to consider: Would/should parents have a right to know when a teacher/coach/scoutmaster is carrying a gun to protect their children. I understand what the law says. However, I'm not sure that law shouldn't be questioned in cases like these. And if not law, certainly morally. I think if I were I the coach carrying I would inform the parents.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Sevenrats said:


> Where human history actually begins is tough to pin down. All animals fight. Mostly for food, sex and territory. Usually they fight until one backs down.


To hear some of these gun guys tell it, human history began after the first gun was manufactured. I'm pretty sure food, sex, and territory remains the impetus behind most crime. Animals just have the good sense to let the other back down. Or they have the good sense to back down. Fighting without weapons allows that to happen the majority of the time.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

deke505 said:


> Hate to break this to you, showing a real life gory murder of some one being hacked up alive, as well as glorifying the murderer has nothing to do with freedom of the press.


 My hero? Never met the dude so no, but he does display heroic traits and actions, so I would not be ashamed to say he was... BUT however, Mark was the guy who brought the "1 ice pic 1 murderer" murder to the attention of authorities, who did nothing... ( the luke maggot [the perp of the murder] guy was also the one who earlier had posted videos of suffocating cats in a vacuum bag, they used that video along with the guys porno career, analyzation of the videos themselves and sophisticated online IP voodoo I don't understand to identify the maggot murderer)
Then the community on his website, identified the perpetrator, and he gave the authorities THAT information. Only when a body part showed up to some PMs house or office did the authorities take it seriously and get involved. So he got a very vicious and deranged murderer off the streets himself, as well as exposing the manipulated nature of the mass media, so I do in fact think those are "heroic" and benevolent actions and I commend him and the entire Best Gore community for it.

Then the guy (Mark) is arrested at the Canadian border, his laptop and all monetary assets siezed on the charge of "Corrupting Morals", the first person to be charged with such a crime in any supposedly "free" nation since the 1700's I believe. I mean come on, this guy gets psycho killers off the streets yet he is "corrupting morals" by merely reporting facts? How much propaganda and gore are we shown by the MSM now I ask you? If you don't think any at all, let me just say two phrases to you and honestly tell me the images that pop into your head. BOSTON MARATHON BOMBING, and SYRIA GAS ATTACK. So what did you just see in your minds eye? I guarantee its gore, only difference is when the MSM reports it, they are furthering the powers that be's agenda, and giving it the "approved spin", if not out right making it up.

The real reason is he made the cops look like the incompetent idiots they really are, and showed our ruling class for a bunch of liars and hypocrites, and they wanted to shut him up. Period.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

irishpitbull said:


> Your lack of gun knowledge and handling is showing. Guns just don't go off.





AZ said:


> He's not talking about his weapon.





DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I think he is, just not a gun.


Sometimes I inadvertently put my hand on the trigger and puh-pow! It discharges.


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

Lol @ you guys saying animals back down and won't kill one of their own?
WTF planet are you guys on? 
Seriously ? 

Look, I get the anti-gun opinion, and I respectfully disagree, but some of the delusional things you guys say give about as much credence as the crap the NRA spews in the opposite direction. 

Making a statement like that gives you 0 credibility when anyone could easily turn on National Geographic and within half an hour see your propaganda exposed.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Animal Planet. Meerkat Manor reruns FTW!.


----------



## irishpitbull (Sep 29, 2011)

AZ said:


> Animal Planet. Meerkat Manor reruns FTW!.


Animal fight-night. Awesome series.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

steveohio said:


> Lol @ you guys saying animals back down and won't kill one of their own?
> WTF planet are you guys on?
> Seriously ?
> 
> ...


I think there was some hyperbole involved. And not a little humor. That's not propaganda.

Edit: Is it humor, hyperbole, or propaganda to say we'd all be speaking Cherokee if it weren't for guns?


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

net wurker said:


> Much to Rocker's dismay.


Ah! But you see NW, in my 'liberal pansy, hippie Utopian' delusion I believe there is indeed good in everyone. I know I will never see it, at least not as Rockerc, but this evil species will either figure it out that we do not need to fight each other and work to the common good, or spiral into further despair and eventual, inevitable extinction... I prefer the former option, so will continue to live in my delusion thank you very much  My dismay is more occasional disappointment!


----------



## Gordon Shumway (Sep 17, 2012)

steveohio said:


> Lol @ you guys saying animals back down and won't kill one of their own?
> WTF planet are you guys on?
> Seriously ?
> 
> ...


rft: Obviously someone wasn't able to choose correctly between Coke and Pepsi in the License to Chill challenge back in 1991. So you come on here and discredit the power of the card? Ha, I scoff at your post!


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

Rockerc, are you a Buddhist by chance? Your mindset is very close to their beliefs. If your not, I suggest reading some on it, smart dudes them monks were. 

And yes, saying animals don't kill each other is definately bologna.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

bsieb said:


> The Spanish conquistadors, who conquested the desert southwest where I live, did so with swords, spears, armor, and horses. Before that, The Mayan's preyed on them with the same weapons, except no horses. Size matters more with those weapons, but that's fine with me. Big people are nicer.


The Conquistadors didn't do too well in the desert SW where I live too. Their history is littered with tales of failed missions, pointless excursions, and major losses. Once the Native Americans borrowed the horse they were introduced to by the Spanish, it got even harder for all later settlers. Most of the Spanish gains and major settlements remained down Mexico way...


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

steveohio said:


> Rockerc, are you a Buddhist by chance? Your mindset is very close to their beliefs. If your not, I suggest reading some on it, smart dudes them monks were.
> 
> And yes, saying animals don't kill each other is definately bologna.


I am not what you would call a practicing Buddhist, but I read a lot of Buddhist text, and a great deal of it resonates with me. A few years ago I was fortunate to be shown around the main teaching temple in Ulan Bator, Mongolia, and I have rarely seen so many happy cheerful people of all ages living together. They gotta be doing something right... I read a great many of the Dalai Llama's books, and recommend highly the book "Beyond Religion" to anyone with an open mind who wishes to enrich it.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

See how we got here?!? From Concealed Carry to Buddhism! There is hope yet!


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

steveohio said:


> And yes, saying animals don't kill each other is definately bologna.


Not that it matters, but if you go back and look, the word "usually" was included originally. I believe that makes it a true enough statement not to destroy the posters credibility completely. But hey, he should be speaking Cherokee anyways.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Slow Danger said:


> But hey, he should be speaking Cherokee anyways.


My Cheyenne Grandmother would probably disagree. But then my Cherokee Grandfather would add his two cents.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

Slow Danger said:


> Not hyper-sensitive at all. When everything you write is lifted right off the pages of Guns and Ammo magazine, you know exactly what you're doing when you make the "general observation" that people who don't carry guns are sheep and likely stupid.
> 
> And you have some serious flawed logic that you've gleaned from your gun mags and revisionist histories. Gun ownership was never higher than it was in Colonial America right after the Revolt. Violent crime in America was never higher, per capita, than it was during Colonial times. To hear you tell it, all murders, robberies, and rapes quit happening back then because equality reigned. Or was that 100 years later when the Colt revolver came out? I'm having a hard time tracking down just when I got emancipated and guns started preventing violence on a wide scale.
> 
> I kinda like to think that statistics on violent crime have decreased ever since Colonial times because real equality, the kind that doesn't come at the barrel of the gun, has become more widespread in our country. But that's just the lame-stream media talking.


That "... who don't carry guns are sheep and likely stupid..." was your own conclusion, you read more into that than was necessarily, that is a reflection of your own mind.

Most people, indeed, are sheep like followers, without much courage or generosity. That's why America has the Senate, a President instead off a prime minister of a parliament, and the Supreme Court: Because the "masses are asses" so to slow down popular sentiments -- what is popular is not necessarily what's right so we are thus protected from fads and mob mood swings.

Crime or bullying will never stop, but until the arrival of the repeating, handy, pistol, i.e. the Colt Peacemaker as an example, weaker or untrained persons had not much of an option to resist evil actions. Now, one determined person has a chance to stop, or at least, die fighting back and leaving physical evidence that may lead to prevention of other crimes, multiple felons who may be stronger and also armed.

The ideals is that of realistic choice, in a real contemporary world: that a person can have access to tools and skills to save lives without being unfairly treated as a criminal. As a example of a grand-mother near New Orleans after the Katrina storm who did not want to abandon her home and defended it by herself with a modern repeating rifle thus roving gangs with firearms left her house alone.

Here're examples of freedom minded thinking:
while I would never burn a U.S. flag, I support your right to choose to do so;
while I do not ever want to smoke pot, I support your right to choose to do so;
while I hope to never advise a woman to abort, I support her right to choose to do so, at any time.

So if someone choose to ride her MTB and also carry a handy revolver with penetrating bullets, such .44s or .45s, as her ammo then I support her right to choose to do so.

Basically, you have the right to be "wrong", as long as you do not infringe on other's same right.

Having a tool ought not to be a crime, but actually harming others ought to be a crime, with the State having the full range of remedy to choose from, including the Capital Punishment, when there's physical evidence.

Felon(s) that have bullet holes and have splashed blood (DNA) on the trail even after a victim may have died in the struggle, helps law enforcement to apply justice to those felon(s), thus may prevent harm to others in time. But merely having such tools as "insurance" ought not to cost a person his job and time in jail, exposed to groups of professional criminals and their wanton tastes.

OK, that was a lengthy explanation. And I'm open to all sincere criticism based on facts or reasoning.

Time for me to go riding.

p.s. bit more history...most gun laws came about due to the KKK restricting non-Whites from owning means of self-protection. Thus the great and late Dr. M.L. King was denied his application for a CCW Permit.

Now days, most sheriffs, that are elected, advocate citizens being able to be armed, but most police chiefs, appointed by a politicians, mimic what their bosses want...would hurt their career to have their own view.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

TrailNut said:


> Most people, indeed, are sheep like followers, without much courage or generosity. That's why America has the Senate, a President instead off a prime minister of a parliament, and the Supreme Court: Because the "masses are asses" so to slow down popular sentiments -- what is popular is not necessarily what's right so we are thus protected from fads and mob mood swings.


What you are describing here is pretty much Totalitarianism. May I presume to ask what you consider these 'mob mood swings' and 'fads' to be exactly? And are there any examples in history you can mention? The Vietnam War protests perhaps? The entire Civil Rights movement maybe? Are you going to be the one to judge what is 'right'? Or would you be content to leave those choices up to smarter people?


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Going for a ride myself... phew!


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

deke505 said:


> I don't think a hand gun is going to do much to the bear other than piss it off.


couple of accurate rounds of super-hard cast bullets fired from revolvers, (44 Remington Magnum S&W or 454 Ruger "Alaskan") can do it. Seven shots from a Colt .45 pistol, weaker bullets than the two I already mentioned, has stopped a brown bear in Yellowstone Park from mauling two humans on a trail.

My bear country pistol loads are Garrett 320 grain hardcast flat nose cartridges


----------



## mbmb65 (Jan 13, 2004)

Sevenrats said:


> A better question is when did humans (and chimps) develop hate and vengeance?
> 
> Oh and the first weapon must have been a rock.


When they became humanoids.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

rockerc said:


> What you are describing here is pretty much Totalitarianism. May I presume to ask what you consider these 'mob mood swings' and 'fads' to be exactly? And are there any examples in history you can mention? The Vietnam War protests perhaps? The entire Civil Rights movement maybe? Are you going to be the one to judge what is 'right'? Or would you be content to leave those choices up to smarter people?


No, I have described the American republic, a democratic rule of law, mostly.

Totalitarianism, would in fact, be governments that deny its people guns: North Korea, Hitler's Germany, Stalin's USSR, & China of the P. L. Army.

The rest of your questions remind me the quote from a long dead ancient Greek, Aristotle: "the difference between the educated and the uneducated is like the difference of the living vs. the dead."

Just let people ride and carry what ever tool they feel they need. I won't judge them by what they haul, but by what they actually do that harms other folks.


----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

Damn this got good.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

TrailNut said:


> No, I have described the American republic, a democratic rule of law, mostly.
> 
> Totalitarianism, would in fact, be governments that deny its people guns: North Korea, Hitler's Germany, Stalin's USSR, & China of the P. L. Army.
> 
> ...


Some flawed logic at work here old bean! The countries you listed should also be joined by almost every other country in the civilised world who do not allow free carrying of guns, and to the best of my knowledge, do not include many Totalitarian regimes, but rather some democratic systems that were pioneered by that guy Aristotle's crowd. 
I am really not sure what you mean with the quote from Aristotle, do you support educating the 'masses' even tho they might be 'asses', or not? I do not understand why that reminds you of my questions, (which remain unanswered).

As for letting people ride and decide with whatever tool they feel they need, I am not presuming to deny them this right, all I am concerned with is putting another point of view across. If I can help sway anyone at all in their choices, or at least make them question their motives and whether this necessity exists, all good!


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

TrailNut said:


> That "... who don't carry guns are sheep and likely stupid..." was your own conclusion, you read more into that than was necessarily, that is a reflection of your own mind.
> 
> Most people, indeed, are sheep like followers, without much courage or generosity. That's why America has the Senate, a President instead off a prime minister of a parliament, and the Supreme Court: Because the "masses are asses" so to slow down popular sentiments -- what is popular is not necessarily what's right so we are thus protected from fads and mob mood swings.
> 
> .


So let me make sure I understand you correctly, if a country has a senate and a president that country is generous and has courage? But if a country has a prime minister of parliament and a supreme court they are the opposite?


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

tim208 said:


> Damn this got good.


Not sure how.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

AZ said:


> My Cheyenne Grandmother would probably disagree. But then my Cherokee Grandfather would add his two cents.


Ha. Hopefully they would find a way to work it all out peaceably.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

sodak said:


> I spent three lovely tours to the sand box in support of OIF/OEF running convoy with the Army from Kuwait to Northern Iraq, plus some fun time in Afghanistan. While being fired upon from random insurgents on the side of the road or from rooftops, the first thing I was thankful for was my M4. The idea of not wanting to use it, or not feeling I needed it in that scenario does not make one bit of sense to me.
> 
> Rocker - (honestly please) How could you possibly serve in the Armed Forces and be willing to defend your country, or better yet, protect your brothers and sisters in arms with that type of mindset? As much as a good portion of society in this country want you to believe, you can NOT hug an enemy combatant to make him like you. I really am interested in your thoughts. PM me if you don't want to post here.
> 
> **edit- I apologize for aiding the derailment of this thread.


Distinction: An American citizen who robs me for the contents of my wallet is not an enemy combatant.

I am NOT going to shoot someone over $23 and coupon for a free milkshake at McDonald's.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

TrailNut said:


> OK, that was a lengthy explanation. And I'm open to all sincere criticism based on facts or reasoning.


Trailnut, if you'll go back and look, you'll see that I support your right to bear arms. So I am a good American by your standards. And I appreciate that you've mentioned several times that not all folks should be carrying while riding, and that people should take gun ownership seriously. Where I'm giving you a hard time is that you include with your common sense some of the stuff your Googling up that comes directly from the 2nd Amendment websites. Then you apply famous quotes and history, using them out of their original context, and drape gun ownership in patriotic jingoism, which takes what you call a tool and applies to it magical thinking and myth making. I'm pretty sure when you call most people sheep, you lack generosity. I mean, that's pretty much the definition.


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

rockerc said:


> ...in my 'liberal pansy, hippie Utopian' delusion


Hey now, don't go putting words in my mouth! If I had a magical way to control it, or make it be, I would pick your Utopian society.

My belief sways the other way, though, that humans are never going to reach that common ground and agree to quit warring and killing each other. In that regard, if the "bad guys" are going to have guns, (which at this point they always will, no matter what laws are passed, they don't care about or abide by laws) then I want guns, too.

For the record, I don't carry when I ride. I don't even own a handgun. My personal arsenal consists of a Mossy 500 that lives under my bed, and a Ruger 10/22 for plinkin', which I haven't even played with in over a year.

Also, I have no issues with those that feel the need to carry a gun when they ride.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

Le Duke said:


> Distinction: An American citizen who robs me for the contents of my wallet is not an enemy combatant.
> 
> I am NOT going to shoot someone over $23 and coupon for a free milkshake at McDonald's.


That conversation had nothing to do with carrying in the good ol' USA. I was interested in Rockers POV on things in the "combat" arena.


----------



## Gumbi4Prez (Jan 2, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Distinction: An American citizen who robs me for the contents of my wallet is not an enemy combatant.
> 
> I am NOT going to shoot someone over $23 and coupon for a free milkshake at McDonald's.


I hear Ya. You must be married with children as well. Super sized milkshake coupon?


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

People in general are sheep, at least when looked at in a large group. It is fact that most individuals will be swayed by a ''majority'' opinion. Good or bad to most, is defined by what that majority believes to be ''right'' peoples perceptions are based on what they see, if a majority does something, it can't be wrong, can it? 

As for an example of mob rule, take a look at any riot in history, any major conflict, the effect of polls in elections. Remove any individual from that group, and their beliefs will be singular and differ from the majority.

The founding fathers knew that government is not, and can be perfect. They created the 2nd amendment in order to give the populace the ultimate power and decision. Any government that seeks to remove that power from is, in fact a totalitarian regime. The freedom to own a firearm was given to people, as an inalienable human right to defend yourself and your family, and is essential to maintaining a proper balance of power in the population. 

Anyone that seeks to disarm anyone only has ulterior motives to do so, those mostly being power and control. Yes, there are idiots who cannot handle the responsibility of owning said weapons, but the reason we are given the freedom to use them, is the fact that, individually, most people want the same thing and are, in general ''good''.

The person that stated that the balance of power for individuals really did come about with the advent of the pistol is 100% correct. Before then, you had no reliable, or rather easy way to protect yourselves. 

Everything was in fact ''might makes right''


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Phoenix must be one hell of a safe place with those kind of lax gun laws


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TrailNut said:


> couple of accurate rounds of super-hard cast bullets fired from revolvers, (44 Remington Magnum S&W or 454 Ruger "Alaskan") can do it. Seven shots from a Colt .45 pistol, weaker bullets than the two I already mentioned, has stopped a brown bear in Yellowstone Park from mauling two humans on a trail.


I'm in Alaska. A .45 ACP is worthless against a bear. That round is a poor penetrator, even in humans. You need significant penetration, usually the "lightest" is a 300gr .44 magnum, otherwise it's throwing rocks. In the lower 48, due to the smaller size of bears, a .357 magnum is likely enough (and again, a much better choice than an auto-loader). The only people you see with semi-autos up here are cops, and they have shotguns with slugs for the big game.

Someone recently brought down a bear with an M4-type weapon, they had to empty the entire magazine, and the bear went off and died a little while later (not even close to "killing" the bear instantly). The 5.56mm is a poor weapon again for these kinds of animals with thick skulls and hides.

I think guys are absolutely fascinated with guns though. From the time we are kids we are playing with guns and playing games like "cops and robbers" and other games that involve shooting or killing someone. We would like nothing more than to be the "hero" and shoot a bad-guy or somehow stop a huge evil terror plot like John McClain. It's hard-wired in our system to a large extent I think, which explains much of the american "gun-fascination". I have and shoot several guns, but I don't see any reason to take them with me on the trail here. I don't have the kind that would make a difference and a big can of bear spray is better, as bears usually want nothing to do with you (moose on the other hand are different).


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

steveohio said:


> The person that stated that the balance of power for individuals really did come about with the advent of the pistol is 100% correct. Before then, you had no reliable, or rather easy way to protect yourselves.'


Do you mean the guy who took his quote from the sweatshirt:








Or the biker patch;








Or was it the doggie shirt:


----------



## Sevenrats (Jan 2, 2014)

steveohio said:


> Lol @ you guys saying animals back down and won't kill one of their own?
> WTF planet are you guys on?
> Seriously ?
> 
> ...


Animals do not usually kill their own species. It rarely happens. If and animal dies from a conflict is later from injuries. Some animals will kill their own. Chimps and lions for example. They will actually take the fight so far as to chase down and kill their opponent for the sake of killing them.

I like the way you assumed the post was anti gun. It wasn't and I am a gun owner.

I never said that animals never kill their own species. If you watch national geographic you will see that.

You should def get a license to chill dude.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

deke505 said:


> So let me make sure I understand you correctly, if a country has a senate and a president that country is generous and has courage? But if a country has a prime minister of parliament and a supreme court they are the opposite?


A parliament is more democratic than presidential/senate/Supreme Court system, thus more prone to popular sentiments of the masses


----------



## Trajan556 (Jul 22, 2013)

I CCW a G19 in a Dale Fricke Archangel AIWB when I ride. I like this particular holster because it has a lot of retention (so it'll stay in if I crash). AIWB and biking can be tricky, as your dudes are competing for space with the seat. Shorter barrel (G19) with a higher ride makes it possible.

I'm not a part of the spandex club though. I just wear cargo shorts.
And I train. That's the most important aspect. I recommend instructors such as Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Pat McNamara, Kyle Defoor, etc.

Your most important weapon is your mind.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Trajan556 said:


> I'm not a part of the spandex club though.


Thank imaginary beings you are not insecure...


----------



## Trajan556 (Jul 22, 2013)

Jayem said:


> Thank imaginary beings you are not insecure...


What?

I'll wear UA in some conditions, but not biking. Don't see the need.


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

I really am not sure why asking for advice on carry options causes such vitriol. But it does. My agency does not require off duty carry, but many LE agencies do. Are these officers crazy for wanting to be in compliance with their SOPs even when they are recreating in the great outdoors? It is a reasonable question and it seems as though all the answers are require some compromises be made. That Hill People bag does seem like the best option for comfort and retention, but damn it does scream "I HAVE A GUN". Especially when paired with cool LE discount Oakleys!


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

rebel1916 said:


> I really am not sure why asking for advice on carry options causes such vitriol. But it does.


C'mon now. Of course you know, it's the internet.


----------



## Tystevens (Nov 2, 2011)

bsieb said:


> Tystevens- So the guy shot at the snake multiple times, didn't hurt the snake, or anyone else, and then you killed it with a more appropriate weapon, all needlessly and with much drama. I'm sure the scouts learned a lesson or two from the scenario, maybe not the lesson that was intended.
> 
> What if the guy had started shooting the scouts, what would you have done then?


Well, he hit the snake several times, it bleeding and wrapped up in a ball, it just wasn't dead [yet]. So I put it out of its misery. No, I probably wouldn't have killed it if it could have been removed safely and was still in good shape.


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

Mookie said:


> C'mon now. Of course you know, it's the internet.


Yeah, and I get that there is substantial overlap between the MTB crowd and the environmental crowd. And then again between the environmental crowd and the anti-gun crowd. But still, it isn't a crazy question. Plenty of people have reason to carry whether work related or not. And there are gonna be more people who have experience with carrying on singletrack here than at Officer.com or AR15.com. So this is really the best place for the question. Except that it becomes virtually impossible to get an answer because people with no real interest in the subject turn it into a rant on how guns suck.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Has anybody seen my shorts, I feel I lost them somewhere along the way in this thread.

They look like these but a little longer but not much.


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

I think I saw em on page four.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

net wurker said:


> I think I saw em on page four.


Hey this is serious business Mr. I searched page 4 and found nothing. So where's lost and found anyway.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Hey this is serious business Mr. I searched page 4 and found nothing. So where's lost and found anyway.


Those shorts you speak of are just too, well, short. You really need to go longer dude. I think the post on page 4 was deleted.


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

Well, the pair I saw were kinda smelly.

Maybe they were Nicole's?


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

net wurker said:


> Well, the pair I saw were kinda smelly.
> 
> Maybe they were Nicole's?


I've been looking for those.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

rebel1916 said:


> Yeah, and I get that there is substantial overlap between the MTB crowd and the environmental crowd. And then again between the environmental crowd and the anti-gun crowd. But still, it isn't a crazy question. Plenty of people have reason to carry whether work related or not. And there are gonna be more people who have experience with carrying on singletrack here than at Officer.com or AR15.com. So this is really the best place for the question. Except that it becomes virtually impossible to get an answer because people with no real interest in the subject turn it into a rant on how guns suck.


Actually, if you go back through all 14 pages and count, you'll see that there were more pro-gun posters than anti-gun posters, and they weren't posting about holsters either.


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

You may well be right. But the people who are looking for holsters aren't looking for a drawn out 14 page discussion on the politics/foolishness/necessity/etc. of handguns. They just want some opinions on how best to carry one. What happens is every bit as annoying as if someone was to crash every thread on fatbikes and studded tires to say only a moron would want to ride in the winter time.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

rebel1916 said:


> You may well be right. But the people who are looking for holsters aren't looking for a drawn out 14 page discussion on the politics/foolishness/necessity/etc. of handguns. They just want some opinions on how best to carry one. What happens is every bit as annoying as if someone was to crash every thread on fatbikes and studded tires to say only a moron would want to ride in the winter time.


Well, you'll still need to go back and read all 14 pages. The point you are making has been brought up a number of times through those 14 pages. If you want to play in a 14 page gun thread, you'll have to do your homework.

Edit: I think your point was made back on page 4 where Dirtjunkie lost his drawers.


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

Slow Danger said:


> Well, you'll still need to go back and read all 14 pages. The point you are making has been brought up a number of times through those 14 pages. If you want to play in a 14 page gun thread, you'll have to do your homework.
> 
> Edit: I think you point was made back on page 4 where Dirtjunkie lost his drawers.


Skimmed em. That was more than enough. I'm guessing you are one of the innerwebs tough guys who made it difficult for the OP to get an answer to his question.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

rebel1916 said:


> You may well be right. But the people who are looking for holsters aren't looking for a drawn out 14 page discussion on the politics/foolishness/necessity/etc. of handguns. They just want some opinions on how best to carry one. What happens is every bit as annoying as if someone was to crash every thread on fatbikes and studded tires to say only a moron would want to ride in the winter time.


I guess it's a catch-22. If you want feedback on how to carry a gun while riding you go to a mtn bike site. However if you talk about guns on a mtn bike site then you're going to get a lot of opinions on guns. It may be annoying but it's the only outcome that any gun thread will ever get on MTBR. It's up to the pro gun crowd to come up with the info the OP asked for and they didn't deliver.


----------



## Phillbo (Apr 7, 2004)

I carry a French Tickler when I ride.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Phillbo said:


> I carry a French Tickler when I ride.


That probably cuts down on wiener chaffing.


----------



## rebel1916 (Sep 16, 2006)

Phillbo said:


> I carry a French Tickler when I ride.


Who doesn't?


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

rebel1916 said:


> Skimmed em. That was more than enough. I'm guessing you are one of the innerwebs tough guys who made it difficult for the OP to get an answer to his question.


If you go back and read, you'll see that the OP knew what was coming and started the thread anyways. Thread was derailed the second the OP hit post new thread. Also, see my signature line.


----------



## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

It's interesting that this thread has taken on a Buddhist flavour as Mahatma Gandhi and the Dali Lama are both pro gun. Here is an old quote from Gandhi's biography: 

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."
- Mahatma Gandhi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", M. K. Gandhi, page 372 

Oh, please stop buying up all the Ruger 77s if you don't mind. We can't get them for love or money thanks to you lot buying them up. Anyone would think there was something wrong.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

MagicCarpet said:


> It's interesting that this thread has taken on a Buddhist flavour as Mahatma Gandhi and the Dali Lama are both pro gun. Here is an old quote from Gandhi's biography:
> 
> "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."
> - Mahatma Gandhi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", M. K. Gandhi, page 372
> ...


Ah! The old Gandhi/Dalai Llama argument. 
With Gandhi, the circumstances were somewhat different than in modern day America: At that time India was under the 'rule' of a Colonialist power, my forefathers, unlike this country with an elected gubberment... The greater majority of Gandhi's life was spent using non-violence as a 'weapon'.
As for the Dalai Llama, I suggest you read up a little about him and his beliefs before spouting NRA claptrap about him being 'pro-gun'.

Your comments might be mildly ironic at best. As for DJs shorts tho... I think Gandhi was last seen wearing them DJ...


----------



## BigRingGrinder (Jan 9, 2013)

Mookie said:


> I guess it's a catch-22. If you want feedback on how to carry a gun while riding you go to a mtn bike site.


What kind of 22 and how do you carry it while riding?


----------



## Trajan556 (Jul 22, 2013)

I always found it quite odd how dudes who enjoy being in the woods and also enjoy a good beer are also anti-gun.

Either that, or it's the UK guys who are over-represented.

I think we should get away from the pro-gun/anti-gun thing. They are tools. If you don't want that capability, I sure hope you know how to fight (both skills are good to have). Given that research has shown those with stronger upper bodes are more likely to be conservative, I'm guessing that isn't the case.


----------



## shagster (Oct 30, 2012)

I just use a sling to carry my AR while riding. Just cinch it tight to your back so it doesn't bounce around a lot. Also, you may want to get a low profile charging handle so it doesn't poke into your back. As for the handgun, the front pocket of the camel back should provide quick enough access while still protecting the firearm.


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

A high quality (custom molded) IWB holster works quite well. More comfortable in the pack though.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

If I wasn't so bony, the crossbreed supertuck and similar designs would prolly be the preferred method. But I am really bony, so in a desantis superfly and in the cargo pocket it goes.


----------



## kimbers (Jan 24, 2011)

Im sooo glad I live in the UK!!


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

I'm sooo glad we're not under British rule!


----------



## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Hmm. Skimming thru the noise, there seems to be about 10 good posts. The one solution to convenient, concealed carry seems to be a chest bag - I saw two linked, but the Hill People Gear Kit Bags fit the bill best.










Searching for "chest bag" brings up many options, adding "hiking" gets you closer. Camera equipment , fishing gear, and backpacking specific bags are available - as well as a few optimized for carrying a firearm. This is good, because if you see someone with a chest bag it's not just a holster. I even found a review of the Hill People kit bag  for a non-firearms application.

I did see where Camelbak made a concealed carry pack - the Demon, but it was discontinued back in '09. It used a bottom access pocket near the small of your back - which looked difficult to use:


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

So if you are about to go on a bike trail that has a posted weapons ban, do you still ride the trail while concealing?


----------



## Centurion_ (Aug 13, 2011)

I have an older camelback with a pocket similar to that wadster. My G19 fits in there perfect, but as you point out, it's a bit difficult to access.

Since the majority of my rides are under 2 hours, and from the house, I rarely wear a pack. So I prefer a subcompact in my jersey pocket. Being in my 60's my riding style is a bit less aggressive than it once was, so going over the bars and risking landing on it...or having it fall out...is no longer much of an issue.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

That's good stuff Wadester! I was not familiar with this "chest pack". I could use on on multi-day hikes and it looks much more comfortable than the shoulder strap/ under the arm application I use now. However, it may be a bit hot to have that covering my core area while hiking.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

kimbers said:


> Im sooo glad I live in the UK!!


Guess what? Yep, we are glad you do too.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

006_007 said:


> So if you are about to go on a bike trail that has a posted weapons ban, do you still ride the trail while concealing?


 Show me where this exists, I have never seen it. And honestly, yes I would still if I had to ride there, but if given the choice, I do not patronize business who deny my constitutional rights and allow a free feeding grounds for criminals.. 
Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

musikron said:


> Show me where this exists, I have never seen it. And honestly, yes I would still if I had to ride there, but if given the choice, I do not patronize business who deny my constitutional rights and allow a free feeding grounds for criminals..
> Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.


It exists. I promise. I live in Virginia and many, if not most, of the state parks & national forests restrict carrying a handgun. period. I do not agree with it, but it is true. The only time I feel the need to carry when in the "woods" is when hiking/floating a multi-day off grid trip. Then I carry regardless, and that's still risky around here.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

sodak said:


> That's good stuff Wadester! I was not familiar with this "chest pack". I could use on on multi-day hikes and it looks much more comfortable than the shoulder strap/ under the arm application I use now. However, it may be a bit hot to have that covering my core area while hiking.


Yeah Sodak that would be too hot to wear riding. I say take the chance and leave the gun at home. If you run in to any danger you've got a cell phone. Call your wife and have her bring the gun out to ya.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

musikron said:


> Show me where this exists, I have never seen it. And honestly, yes I would still if I had to ride there, but if given the choice, I do not patronize business who deny my constitutional rights and allow a free feeding grounds for criminals..
> Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.


Was the case in a movie theatre recently. That was ignored.

And it wasnt even a criminal that caused the problem - but a properly trained ex police.


----------



## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

sodak said:


> That's good stuff Wadester! I was not familiar with this "chest pack". I could use on on multi-day hikes and it looks much more comfortable than the shoulder strap/ under the arm application I use now. However, it may be a bit hot to have that covering my core area while hiking.


Yeah, I have some concern about blocking airflow - especially during the desert summertime! But with HPG's smallest size of 8.5"x6", it's no worse than an event t-shirt I used to have that had such a thick silkscreen design that it blocked airflow. I could tell the difference, but it wasn't "OMFG get it off me!" Also, I've got enough "cleavage" (3/4", baby!) that there should be some air getting thru - kinda like Camelbak back panels.


----------



## shagster (Oct 30, 2012)

006_007 said:


> Was the case in a movie theatre recently. That was ignored.
> 
> And it wasnt even a criminal that caused the problem - but a properly trained ex police.


Former LEO can carry without permit even after they retire. In Florida (where the event you mention probably happened) you rarely see a "No Firearms" sign and even if you do, the law trumps it with some exceptions like Federal buildings, bars, schools, professional sporting events. Of course the owner can ask you to leave if he knows you are carrying and it is their private property but that isn't criminal.

And that example just goes to show that even LEO, or former LEO can have mental issues. The same guy was trusted for decades to protect peoples lives with a firearm. Guns aren't bad, People are.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

shagster said:


> Former LEO can carry without permit even after they retire. In Florida (where the event you mention probably happened) you rarely see a "No Firearms" sign and even if you do, the law trumps it with some exceptions like Federal buildings, bars, schools, professional sporting events. Of course the owner can ask you to leave if he knows you are carrying and it is their private property but that isn't criminal.
> 
> And that example just goes to show that even LEO, or former LEO can have mental issues. The same guy was trusted for decades to protect peoples lives with a firearm. Guns aren't bad, People are.


Guess that justifies it.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

006_007 said:


> Was the case in a movie theatre recently. That was ignored.
> 
> And it wasnt even a criminal that caused the problem - but a properly trained ex police.


 Well, I can't remember the last time I went mountain biking in a theatre.  
Or the last time I even went to a theatre for that matter, movies today are pretty much unwatchable IMO.

But I was talking of trails, and sodak answered that one.

And just cause you're a cop, does not mean you are not a criminal. In fact, cops have a disproportionately high rate of BEING criminals compared to most other professions outside of a pure career criminal. The dude was used to being in a position of power and abusing it by bullying the general public into submission. When later out in real life he was not able to have the same fearful effect on another human being, he became enraged and pulled a gun.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Yeah Sodak that would be too hot to wear riding. I say take the chance and leave the gun at home. If you run in to any danger you've got a cell phone. Call your wife and have her bring the gun out to ya.


I am talking about hiking or floating down the river for multiple days out in the sticks of West by god Virginia. haha. I do many trips like this in this summer and always carry a firearm with me. I usually go with a couple people but a few times a year I go solo for about 4 days each. I never feel the need to be able to "quick-draw" like the secret service , but having it close is ideal. I have zero need or desire to carry a gun while riding my bike.


----------



## net wurker (Sep 13, 2007)

One of the girls in our local club, she never carry's while riding her mountian bike.

However, when she's out on her pig, she open-carry's an Uzzi. 

Crazy bich.


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

net wurker said:


> One of the girls in our local club, she never carry's while riding her mountian bike.
> 
> However, when she's out on her pig, she open-carry's an Uzzi.
> 
> Crazy bich.


mmm bacon if she gets lost


----------



## squareback (Sep 19, 2011)

deke505 said:


> mmm bacon if she gets lost


I'd get lost on purpose.

sent remotely


----------



## Wheelbender (Nov 28, 2006)

Living and riding in wolf country has convinced me to carry one at all times when I know I am in their environment. I have seen them twice while just a few miles from the main road and have seen them crossing heavily traveled paved highways in the Idaho mountains. We have another challenge with the sheepherders and the dogs when in the High County. If you wander upon one of them unexpectedly you can receive a very nasty reception. I’ve had to dismount several times, place my bike between myself and a guard dog ready to attack. Also ride some in bear country where they can be fairly aggressive. I carry my 357 in a fanny pack with some foam padding around it. Also put a chunk of shoe string tied to the zipper so I have faster access. Hangs low on the back and stays out of the way when riding and provides quick access by swinging it around to the front. Also gives me the option of carrying extra ammo in case I get into a shootout with Aliens………illegal or from outer space.


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

net wurker said:


> One of the girls in our local club, she never carry's while riding her mountian bike.
> 
> However, when she's out on her pig, she open-carry's an Uzzi.
> 
> Crazy bich.











Hey now! My sis told net to keep this on the down low. 
Lately, she just rides her pig to do trail work, and only blasts poachers.
... And if you are, best to be packing an S2A missle launcher - Weeeeeeee!!


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Flyin_W said:


> Hey now! My sis told net to keep this on the down low.
> Lately, she just rides her pig to do trail work, and only blasts poachers.
> ... And if you are, best to be packing an S2A missle launcher - Weeeeeeee!!


That's whiskey and tannerite in her pack.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

Yama Arashi said:


> I'm sooo glad we're not under British rule!


yay, agreed. Vive les Etats-Unis!

and that chest Kit Bag mentioned might be useful for the 44/454 revolving haulers...


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

006_007 said:


> Was the case in a movie theatre recently. That was ignored.
> 
> And it wasnt even a criminal that caused the problem - but a properly trained ex police.


That late FL texting-man may have aggravated his verbal altercation to physically escalating by throwing an object at a senior person, hitting his face, in a not well lit room, which may have been understood as initiating an attack, but it's not all that clear, so far. Seems like both behaved badly, thus neither side deserving of sympathy.

an armed society is a more polite society?


----------



## letsrockandroll (Jan 14, 2014)

Cobretti said:


> I always carry a concealed weapon when I ride. But it's not a gun or a knife. Here's a hint - it's attached to my body.


Smooth aha


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

TrailNut said:


> That late FL texting-man may have aggravated his verbal altercation to physically escalating by throwing an object at a senior person, hitting his face, in a not well lit room, which may have been understood as initiating an attack, but it's not all that clear, so far. Seems like both behaved badly, thus neither side deserving of sympathy.
> 
> an armed society is a more polite society?


ummmm yeah sorry having popcorn in your face doesn't mean you get to shoot some one. I know that is probably not what you meant but that is the way it reads.


----------



## iscariot (Oct 24, 2006)

deke505 said:


> ummmm yeah sorry having popcorn in your face doesn't mean you get to shoot some one. I know that is probably not what you meant but that is the way it reads.


The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a bag of popcorn is a good guy with a bag of popcorn.



The ex-cop is yet another scared, gun totin' Murican, who is the lone hero of the story in his own mind, where danger lurks around every corner.

He deserves a life sentence in a hard prison.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

The number of people in the USA that legally own a firearm/s is staggering, and more so than statistics state I am sure. Crimes committed by legal owners are slim to none in comparison to the number of legal owners. But for some reason the media and the "anti-gun" crowd point to these events as the basis to ban guns. Honestly, the problem lies with the illegal gun owners. The criminals, the ones that could care less about stricter background checks, more expensive tax stamps, increased taxing on ammo, ect.. This person wants a gun for one reason, to commit a crime and if the law of murdering someone doesn't deter them, how in the hell do you expect the law of "you can't have a gun here" to make the criminal suddenly change his/her ways? *Think Chicago/Detroit. And this is where we need to focus the attention. I wish I had an answer, but I don't. TO me society is too afraid to address the elephant in the room. But I do know you can't group millions into the actions of a few.


----------



## iscariot (Oct 24, 2006)

sodak said:


> The number of people in the USA that legally own a firearm/s is staggering, and more so than statistics state I am sure. Crimes committed by legal owners are slim to none in comparison to the number of legal owners. But for some reason the media and the "anti-gun" crowd point to these events as the basis to ban guns. Honestly, the problem lies with the illegal gun owners. The criminals, the ones that could care less about stricter background checks, more expensive tax stamps, increased taxing on ammo, ect.. This person wants a gun for one reason, to commit a crime and if the law of murdering someone doesn't deter them, how in the hell do you expect the law of "you can't have a gun here" to make the criminal suddenly change his/her ways? *Think Chicago/Detroit. And this is where we need to focus the attention. I wish I had an answer, but I don't. TO me society is too afraid to address the elephant in the room. But I do know you can't group millions into the actions of a few.


Number of people killed by Family member with a gun in USA: Data Source - FBI UCR Report.
FBI - Expanded Homicide Data
"In 2010, in incidents of murder for which the relationships of murder victims and offenders were known, 53.0 percent were killed by someone they knew (acquaintance, neighbor, friend, boyfriend, etc.); 24.8 percent of victims were slain by family members. The relationship of murder victims and offenders was unknown in 44.0 percent of murder and non-negligent manslaughter incidents in 2010. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 10.) "

People Kill with Guns More Than Any Other Weapon
People Kill with Guns More Than Any Other Weapon: Scientific American

Both men and women kill many more significant others, family members, acquaintances and co-workers combined than strangers.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

incariot - C'mon.. We could post websites all day that contradict one another.. It wouldn't do any good, too much BS out there that people believe rather than using common sense. It's really simple math that is forgotten and replaced with induced fear. I don't know how many times or how many ways to say it, honestly, the gun is nothing but a "tool" and inanimate object. The person wielding the gun makes it a weapon. A gun is a gun, a weapon is a weapon & a firearm belongs to a responsible owner that is willing to use the tool for hobby, sport and defense. 

*imagine* someone breaks into your house, attacks you in a park, carjacks you, ect... What do you do? Fight or flight right? What if it's only fight? You have anything at your disposal to use to defend yourself,.. what do you choose? Or, what do you have? IN any case, a rock is just a deadly as a knife or a gun, or even your hands. It's how you use the "object" as a weapon that can make anything deadly. It's just people are not trained to be afraid of hands or rocks but only the "gun owner". Fear mongering at it's finest, while ignoring the root cause..


----------



## iscariot (Oct 24, 2006)

sodak said:


> incariot - C'mon.. We could post websites all day that contradict one another..


So you're saying the FBI data in the FBI link is unreliable?

Wow. You really are paranoid. Maybe you should put down your gun...


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

I am afraid to pull up a chair and a bag of popcorn to watch all this.......


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

iscariot said:


> So you're saying the FBI data in the FBI link is unreliable?
> 
> Wow. You really are paranoid. Maybe you should put down your gun...


Why instantly result to insults? I am no fanboy of waving a gun around. Just a responsible gun owner that sees some faults in the attack on the gun. There is a lot of fear mongering going on, but on the other side there is a lot of "gun-toting" going on. It's ying/yang, as with any debate. Ie.. 26" vs 29", tubes vs tubeless, wide vs. narrow bars. ect. There are always uber passionate supporters on either side. The only fault the "gun" has is that it makes it easy for a "criminal" to commit a crime.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

iscariot said:


> Number of people killed by Family member with a gun in USA: Data Source - FBI UCR Report.
> FBI - Expanded Homicide Data
> "In 2010, in incidents of murder for which the relationships of murder victims and offenders were known, 53.0 percent were killed by someone they knew (acquaintance, neighbor, friend, boyfriend, etc.); 24.8 percent of victims were slain by family members. The relationship of murder victims and offenders was unknown in 44.0 percent of murder and non-negligent manslaughter incidents in 2010. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 10.) "
> 
> ...


 The same statistical breakdown is found no matter the weapon. In places where there are no guns, knives and bludgeons do the same work.


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

A society that stigmatizes the carrying of weapons by the law-abiding, because it distrusts its citizens more than it fears rapists, robbers, and murderers - certainly cannot be civilized. Far from being "civilized," the beliefs that counter-violence and killing are always wrong, are an invitation to the spread of barbarism. Such beliefs announce loudly and clearly that those who do not respect the lives and property of others will rule over those who do.


----------



## kimbers (Jan 24, 2011)

Yama come to the UK and we can show you a society with no guns, where you are less likely to get raped, robbed or murdered than the USA

A country that is so dangerous that you have to carry a gun to defend yourself doesnt sound civilised to me

infact carrying an instrument designed to kill another person as efficiently as possible is pretty much the opposite of civilised!


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

Oh yes, a lovely place where I can stand around and watch some islamo-fascists hack the head off of a beloved soldier in the streets while I stand and gawk with my apple and granola bar.

I didn't really care to delve into this fray, as mindsets and cultural ideals are pretty much locked in, and nobody here is going to change their opinion based on someone else asserting theirs.

I couldn't care less about statistics frankly, and the numbers sure as **** don't matter when/if you become one of those statistics.

The world and many of the people that live in it are jacked up. I am going to have at my disposal whatever means necessary to protect myself, my loved ones, or whatever innocent 3rd party if G-d forbid something were to occur.

We have a violence, culture and criminal/people problem, not an inanimate object problem. Look at Rwanda or wherever else you prefer to look upon in history. If it's not a firearm, it will be an edged weapon, and so on. Rhetorical question: Why is it that whenever a firearm is used during the commission of a crime, the firearm is blamed? Whereas any time any other instrument is used; an explosive, a bat, a knife, a vehicle, or what have you, the person is blamed instead of the instrument? This alludes to the fear mongering and societal conditioning earlier referenced by sodak.

I'm not interested in living in a country where some political elites dictate how I can or can't choose to live or protect myself, albeit a country doesn't exist in that entirety, so I'll be where I can do so to the fullest extent possible. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights codify, protect and enumerate those natural, inalienable rights....they don't grant them. And nobody, government included, will tell me otherwise.

The UK has a higher assault victim rate than the US, a higher rape victim rate, and a higher crime victims rate. I'd prefer the victims be able to level the playing field and defend themselves, lethally if necessary, if they so choose.

Of course we have more firearms related death, we have more firearms than we do populace. Even with that, murder/firearm rates have trended downward, even prior to the 1994 'assault weapons' ban, and continue to do so, as firearm ownership and acquisition numbers skyrocket. 

Pick your poison.

"I saw a movie once where only the police and military had guns. It was called Schindler's List." Since time immemorial in history, that's the way it always goes. 

Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. North Korea. China. Ottoman Turks against Armenians. The Soviet Union against anti-stallinists/communists. Guatemala. Uganda. Cambodia. 56 million people disarmed and slaughtered, whether outright or via boiling the frog in water. The places where this hasn't happened, it will eventually given enough time, unless the course of history somehow miraculously turns the tide.

It's never in the best interest for the corrupt who are in power, for the general populace to be able to take up arms. Even our own current head of the Department of inJustice said *verbatim*, that the populace needs to be *brainwashed* into thinking that firearms are not ok. (Hello social conditioning.)

"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."


----------



## Trail_Blazer (May 30, 2012)

Smoking kills more people every year in america than guns.
WTF is wrong with the conservatives and liberals not fighting this real killer and being distracted by nonesence.

Hell, drunk drivers and other car accidents kill more people every year in America than guns.

Ban Cars!


----------



## Trail_Blazer (May 30, 2012)

Bing!!!



yama arashi said:


> a society that stigmatizes the carrying of weapons by the law-abiding, because it distrusts its citizens more than it fears rapists, robbers, and murderers - certainly cannot be civilized. Far from being "civilized," the beliefs that counter-violence and killing are always wrong, are an invitation to the spread of barbarism. Such beliefs announce loudly and clearly that those who do not respect the lives and property of others will rule over those who do.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Yama Arashi said:


> A society that stigmatizes the carrying of weapons by the law-abiding


Who is actually "law abiding"?


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

Jayem said:


> Who is actually "law abiding"?


What exactly are you inferring? 50 million plus firearm owners didn't commit a crime today using a firearm.

But on that note: 

"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against; we're after power and we mean it.

There is no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt.

Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Yama Arashi said:


> What exactly are you inferring? 50 million plus firearm owners didn't commit a crime today using a firearm.
> 
> But on that note:
> 
> ...


Quotations, like statistics, can often be moulded to infer pretty much anything you like... Especially Rand's!

Tin Foil Hats all round please!


----------



## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Her "love scenes" are way better. They're still horrible, but much better than her propaganda. And this is coming from a connoisseur of such.


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

kimbers said:


> A country that is so dangerous that you have to carry a gun to defend yourself doesnt sound civilised to me
> 
> infact carrying an instrument designed to kill another person as efficiently as possible is pretty much the opposite of civilised!


Nonsense.

Firearm use to stop and prevent crime *vastly* outnumbers firearm use in the commission of a crime.

Remove firearms and you remove the best tool to deter/stop crime, and prevent anarchy. You think society is uncivilized now? Watch how quickly it spirals down without them.


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

rockerc said:


> Quotations, like statistics, can often be moulded to infer pretty much anything you like... Especially Rand's!
> 
> Tin Foil Hats all round please!





Zowie said:


> Her "love scenes" are way better. They're still horrible, but much better than her propaganda. And this is coming from a connoisseur of such.


By no means do I subscribe to all of Rand's philosophies, but I believe her to be spot on with that quote in regard to laws and government.

Ad hominem and tinfoil insinuations aside, how can one objectively look at all the corruption and toss that assertion aside? And that excerpt isn't moulded to anything, it's quite straight forward and in context.

Sweetheart deals, laws enforced or not enforced contingent on the ideals of those wielding the power and authority, governments working with cartels and criminals. The factual examples can go on endlessly, for any government.

It all boils down to the dollar and the power, irrespective of the approach.

Whatever the case, back to the point that no one here is going to change their opinion contingent upon whatever input is offered up in this debate.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Yama Arashi said:


> By no means do I subscribe to all of Rand's philosophies, but I believe her to be spot on with that quote in regard to laws and government.
> 
> Ad hominem and tinfoil insinuations aside, how can one objectively look at all the corruption and toss that assertion aside? And that excerpt isn't moulded to anything, it's quite straight forward and in context.
> 
> ...


And on most of these points I heartily agree. Power and greed filters down to those of us who are shown by example that all this is in some way 'acceptable' behaviour, and many of us feel the need to have to share in the spoils... often when these spoils are not so readily available, some might turn to violence to take their share in these 'spoils'. Just one small part of the whole... It is imperative that we do not in any way endorse this greed, and in that there is undoubtedly a fine line. We have to encourage all means for transparency in government, whether it be in whistle-blowing, rigorous investigative journalism, or just by voting out the people we do not trust. It does become hard to find anyone who is trustworthy these days tho... so sad.


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

Yama Arashi said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> Firearm use to stop and prevent crime *vastly* outnumbers firearm use in the commission of a crime.
> 
> Remove firearms and you remove the best tool to deter/stop crime, and prevent anarchy. You think society is uncivilized now? Watch how quickly it spirals down without them.


So what you are saying is Canada is more uncivilized and is going down a quick spiral due to the fact that people don't carry guns around them? Let me remind you that Canadians has a lower crime rate and murder rate than that of the U.S.

Don't presume that guns will control the crime, there is no evidence do that effect. Yes it can protect you and make you feel safer but it will have no effect on the crime rate. Society will not crash because you don't carry.


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

I was referring to firearms in general, law enforcement included.

Certainly there are various exigent circumstances, and fortunately some things are self-correcting in a way, as to prevent complete chaos.

Do you think that if all firearms and counter-violence utilizing such, toward those looking to commit violence, were removed entirely, that it wouldn't result in some sort of upheaval amongst those who would commit such violence and crimes?



deke505 said:


> Don't presume that guns will control the crime, there is no evidence do that effect.


No evidence?

Even the Violence Policy Center (not exactly known for being "pro-gun") states that "for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700." That comes to an annual average of 67,740.

Mind you these are only what numbers are actually reported, never mind the fact that any organization will cook the numbers to its own agenda, regardless of which side of the aisle it stands on. Those numbers vastly outnumber even the FBI statistics on firearm related homicides, which don't even differentiate between justifiable/legal shootings amongst both LE and non-LE, versus gangbanger killings etc., in the overall totals.

Like it or not, a citizen, member of law enforcement, or member of the military, with a firearm of some type, will be the ultimate arbitrator.

Part of all this may be from the mindset that only 'officials' should have or carry arms. Correct me if I'm in error, but you automatically assumed I was only referring to citizens walking around with a firearm on their person, and that the final line would be held by those in law enforcement or the military, utilizing such weapons.

All this aside, again, everyone here is going to have their own irrefutable, immovable, resolute opinion and conviction on the subject.

I'll hold to this one: ""No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Jefferson

The rifle in the hands of the citizenry is the only reason the United States exists as a country in its current form. (And that may be able to be said about any existing country, either currently, or somewhere in its history. Every country that exists was either taken or defended by force at some point, utilizing the most efficient weapon at doling out death.) The firearm is the only reason those savages that beheaded the British soldier are no longer perpetrating their misery upon helpless victims.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Yama Arashi said:


> I was referring to firearms in general, law enforcement included.
> 
> Certainly there are various exigent circumstances, and fortunately some things are self-correcting in a way, as to prevent complete chaos.
> 
> ...


You do like your quotations! You also look to the firearm to be the "only reason those savages..." etc. (forgive my use of quotations), but I rather look to finding ways to prevent those 'savages' from taking that course of action in the first place. After all, if someone feels strongly enough to even go to the lengths they did, no amount of firearms will prevent that course. If they felt there would be a number of armed citizens around, they would certainly find another equally barbaric way to enforce their agenda. 
As for saying that the rifle in the hands of the citizenry is the only reason the US exists as it does, there is some truth in that, but it is by no means the only reason, and the moral lead that the US enjoyed being in the past has been greatly diluted in the eyes of the world when they read of instances like Tucson, Sandy Hook, Columbine, Aurora, the Zimmerman case, the movie theater popcorn shooting, the woman that knocked on a stranger's door to ask for help when her car broke down and was shot dead... the list is endless.


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

Pardon my continual additions and corrections. 

I don't think anyone denies that firearms are most certainly used in any number of negative ways, and I wholeheartedly agree with your notion of trying to prevent people from taking criminal and murderous courses.

Although as you said, anyone hell bent on committing such atrocities will find a way, and I'm of the opinion that having the final line of lethal use with a firearm, when ultimately, and unfortunately necessary, is the best course of action. And ultimately, I'm also of the opinion that we're better off with them, than without them.

Let's assume everything was butterflies and rainbows, in the sense that firearms didn't even exist. Would we really be any better off? Hell, the most murderous times of our history on this earth occurred long before firearms were ever conceived.

Where firearms can be used to level the playing field, such as in a case of a woman preventing her rape or whatever other example you prefer, I'd rather she be able to utilize such, rather than just be at the mercy of thugs. And yes, I know there are examples/statistics of just having their own weapon turned against them, but I'd lean in favor of at least having a fighting chance.

There is no compromise when it comes to this for me. Pardon the analogy, but compromise is essentially telling the rapist they can still rape you, but only stick it half way in.

As for societal norms, firearms are ingrained into our culture and history. There are plenty of idiots, and their idiotic behavior certainly abounds, but it still boils down to an individual crime/violence problem, not a gun problem.

Switzerland has one of the lowest annual rates of homicide in the world, by any means, and firearms abound there, to the tune of nearly 3 million firearms in circulation. That includes over 400,000 full automatic/select fire rifles, more than are in civilian hands in the U.S., out of a population of 8 million. That's a higher rate per capita than the U.S.

All in all, I think I've exhausted my perspective on this subject, and I'll attempt to bow out, unless something really riles me up, lol.

Cheers.


----------



## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

I've been reading this thread and I find the reasons people carry guns while riding to be interesting. I have no reason or desire to have a gun where I ride (Boston suburbs) but I do have family out West who have to worry about timberwolves, foxes, bears, etc when they're in the wilderness. I'd be more worried about an animal taking me down than a random person in the woods.

Do you really think some crazy person is going to attack you while cruising along at 15-20 mph on a bike? Doubt it. I'd be more worried about a wild animal. But to each his own. If you want to carry a gun while riding, I just hope you know what you're doing. Don't be some paranoid idiot who buys a gun one day and carries it around not really know how to use it the next day. 

People who are trained and knowledgable to use guns are fine with me that's why I support the idea of a gun license. Just like a car - guns can be dangerous and there needs to be a method to certify to people to use one. Just my .02.

Let the internet sh!tstorm gun debate commence!


----------



## tim208 (Apr 23, 2010)

Didn't the US have to send a bunch of guns to the UK, so the UK wouldn't speak german. something about not having enough weapons and ammo to defend themselves from a german invasion. History never repeats itself, or does it?


----------



## Centurion_ (Aug 13, 2011)

VTSession said:


> Let the internet sh!tstorm gun debate commence!


Oh yeah. Now that YOU'VE posted, the sh!tstorm gun debate will commence.

It started on page one pardner.


----------



## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

Centurion_ said:


> Oh yeah. Now that YOU'VE posted, the sh!tstorm gun debate will commence.
> 
> It started on page one pardner.


I think its been going on on internet long before MTBR.


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

tim208 said:


> Didn't the US have to send a bunch of guns to the UK, so the UK wouldn't speak german. something about not having enough weapons and ammo to defend themselves from a german invasion. History never repeats itself, or does it?


----------



## Gumbi4Prez (Jan 2, 2014)

Two school shootings this week. New Mexico, now Philly today.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

tim208 said:


> Didn't the US have to send a bunch of guns to the UK, so the UK wouldn't speak german. something about not having enough weapons and ammo to defend themselves from a german invasion. History never repeats itself, or does it?


I suggest you read some history before making irrelevant remarks such as this. The US did not sign the lend-lease agreement until Dec 1940, sometime after the British had caused the German invasion, Operation Sealion, to remain a non-starter on the shores of N France after the Germans failed to secure control of the air to support the invasion. This sequence of events was mostly known as the Battle of Britain, where a few brave pilots changed the course of the war over several weeks during the summer of 1940.

Incidentally, the US military had given up Britain for lost in 1940, and strongly opposed FDR sending any aid to the Brits.

History mostly does not repeat itself if we study it and learn from past errors or experiences.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Yama Arashi said:


>


haha...


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

Gumbi4Prez said:


> Two school shootings this week. New Mexico, now Philly today.


35 shot 9 fatalities in Chicago so far in 2014. Note: Chicago is a "gun-free" city. You never hear about this violence in the media, because it does not instill fear into the hearts of the "average" American.

2014 Chicago Crime & Murder Stats | Chicago Murder, Crime & Mayhem | HeyJackass!

As for the school shootings, it's sad. Every time we find out some sort of mental issue that caused the kid/s to commit the crime. Again, back to the person. As for the guns in these shootings, the blame falls entirely on the parents (assumed owners) of the guns. Every gun owner is 100% responsible for their guns and how and where they store them. I am a firm believer that if the child got the parents gun and commits a crime with it, the parent (owner) is responsible. Owning a gun as Americans is our "right", but I feel it should be treated as a privilege.


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

Gumbi4Prez said:


> Two school shootings this week. New Mexico, now Philly today.


Anything to add, or are you just trying to point out how practically every shooting atrocity of this nature occurs in a venue where it's illegal to have a firearm?


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Yama Arashi said:


> Switzerland has one of the lowest annual rates of homicide in the world, by any means, and firearms abound there, to the tune of nearly 3 million firearms in circulation. That includes over 400,000 full automatic/select fire rifles, more than are in civilian hands in the U.S., out of a population of 8 million. That's a higher rate per capita than the U.S.


It's funny, I was about to post that someone would be sure to trot out the Swiss argument soon, as that is pretty normal in these threads. Here we are! Comparing the Swiss to the Americans is completely irrelevant since their society is completely different to ours in the US. yes, they do have a lot of guns in public circulation, but America needs to radically change a whole lot of core values to be able to say they are in any way similar to Switzerland other than by the fact that many people keep guns in the house.


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

sodak said:


> Owning a gun as Americans is our "right", but I feel it should be treated as a privilege.


My issue with that, is that someone, somewhere, will eventually deprive you yourself of such a 'privilege', irrespective of how rational or irrational their reasoning.

Who gets to decide how and where you are able to defend yourself or a loved one, and why should anyone other than you be able to dictate such?

Obviously such an approach is from the rationale that it will prevent, to whatever extent, the amount of killing and misuse of firearms, but ultimately it only affects those who are neither determined or inclined to commit such crimes.


----------



## iscariot (Oct 24, 2006)

VTSession said:


> ... but I do have family out West who have to worry about timberwolves, foxes, bears, etc when they're in the wilderness. I'd be more worried about an animal taking me down than a random person in the woods.
> 
> Do you really think some crazy person is going to attack you while cruising along at 15-20 mph on a bike? Doubt it. I'd be more worried about a wild animal...


And yet you'd have virtually no reason to be...

Number of people killed by bears in USA.
Bear Attack Statistics | Statistic Brain

Statistic Verification
Source: Journal of Wildlife Management
Research Date: 7.28.2013
Fatal bear attacks in North America have occurred in a variety of settings. There have been several in the bear's wilderness habitat involving hikers, hunters, and campers. Brown bear incidents have occurred in their native range spanning Alaska, Northern and Western Canada, and portions of the Rocky Mountains in the United States. The locations of black bear wilderness fatal attacks reflect their wider range; all Canadian Provinces except the Atlantic Provinces, and several major mountainous areas in the United States.

Bear Attack Statistics : Number of Deaths
Year	Black Bear	Brown Bear
2012	0	1
2011	2	2
2010	1	2
2009	2	0
2008	1	2
2007	2	1
2006	1	1
2005	3	3

Both men and women kill many more significant others, family members, acquaintances and co-workers combined than strangers, and there are way more deaths by family members with guns than by animals.

I'll let you look up the stats on the number of people killed by cougars, wolves, and coyotes...


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

rockerc said:


> It's funny, I was about to post that someone would be sure to trot out the Swiss argument soon, as that is pretty normal in these threads. Here we are! Comparing the Swiss to the Americans is completely irrelevant since their society is completely different to ours in the US. yes, they do have a lot of guns in public circulation, but America needs to radically change a whole lot of core values to be able to say they are in any way similar to Switzerland other than by the fact that many people keep guns in the house.


Hence my repeated comments about it being a societal/criminal violence/people issue. If it were the firearms that were the problem, Switzerland would be right up in the top tier of firearm related homicides per capita.

Such arguments are generally trotted out because they hold some sort of relevant value, hopefully in context, to the subject.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

New Guinea has a murder rate 10 times higher than the US and they by and large do not use firearms to accomplish it.


----------



## iscariot (Oct 24, 2006)

Yama Arashi said:


> Who gets to decide how and where you are able to defend yourself or a loved one, and why should anyone other than you be able to dictate such?


I'd prefer if someone other than the ex-cop would have decided whether or not it was pertinent for said ex-cop to shot a guy with a bag of popcorn, BEFORE he shot the guy...

but that just me.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

This thread has actually been pretty reasonable with great points from both sides, some good advice on how to carry, history, murders, self defense, lions, bears, crackheads, and the breakdown of society. I say well done. I think in order to avoid this type of uproar in the future, like it does every time someone asks this dreaded question, this thread should be stickied.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

and locked.....


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

More time to ride!


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

Yama Arashi said:


> My issue with that, is that someone, somewhere, will eventually deprive you yourself of such a 'privilege', irrespective of how rational or irrational their reasoning.
> 
> Who gets to decide how and where you are able to defend yourself or a loved one, and why should anyone other than you be able to dictate such?
> 
> Obviously such an approach is from the rationale that it will prevent, to whatever extent, the amount of killing and misuse of firearms, but ultimately it only affects those who are neither determined or inclined to commit such crimes.


Your thinking too deep into it. The law already treats gun ownership as a privilege. You get a felony and your out. Same with our "right" to vote, one felony and your out. I was trying to say that gun owners should treat it as a privilege, but it will remain our "right". Then again, those who do treat it as a privilege are NOT the ones committing the crimes.


----------



## Gumbi4Prez (Jan 2, 2014)

Yama Arashi said:


> Anything to add, or are you just trying to point out how practically every shooting atrocity of this nature occurs in a venue where it's illegal to have a firearm?


I can think and speak for myself, tyvm. :thumbsup:


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

Yama Arashi said:


> Hence my repeated comments about it being a societal/criminal violence/people issue. If it were the firearm, Switzerland would be right up in the top tier of firearm related homicides per capita.
> 
> Such arguments are generally trotted out because they hold some sort of relevant value, hopefully in context, to the subject.


But the difference is that the Swiss did not arm in response to a perceived danger to themselves as individuals, but because they do not have a standing army, and they are required by law to perform military service, and respond to national endangerment from anyone who has not read their history books and decides to take a shot at attacking across some pretty inhospitable terrain more suited to Carthaginians riding elephants.
Their history, both social and economic, and hence their societal value system is vastly different to this in America.


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

sodak said:


> Your thinking too deep into it. The law already treats gun ownership as a privilege. You get a felony and your out. Same with our "right" to vote, one felony and your out. I was trying to say that gun owners should treat it as a privilege, but it will remain our "right". Then again, those who do treat it as a privilege are NOT the ones committing the crimes.


Well that's most certainly the way it is. 

Gumbi4Prez: Point being you could add something more than anything we can read on a news headline, and add some sort of depth/opinion to your statement. I'm aware you can speak and think for yourself, but posting about some school on lockdown doesn't give us much insight into your perspective.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

AZ said:


> and locked.....


Yeah, your probably right...


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

Yama Arashi said:


> Well that's most certainly the way it is.


Yup..  I guess I live in the opposite but parallel universe as RockerC. I want to keep our "right" to own guns, but I wan't everyone to be responsible with them. It's not gonna happen.  Rocker wants no one to have guns and everyone live responsible, not gonna happen.  Hmm.... :skep: What do you do?

My vote is go after the criminals, help the mentally ill and ease the tension in society. Unfortunately, it's not gonna happen.....:madman:


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

Indeed. The same way firearms will never cease to exist, or be misused by idiots.

As per iscariot's example, albeit using my comment out of context, there most certainly are some outcomes that would have been different, for the better, had a firearm not been present. I don't think anyone is arguing the ex-LE in the movie theater was justified in using lethal force. But on the flip side of that equation, there are certainly some outcomes that would have been different, and better for the victims/statistics, had they a firearm.

As much as some may beg to differ, disarming won't cure monkey killing monkey. (Right in Two lyrics - Tool - 10,000 Days - YouTube) In the immortal words of James Brown, "It is what it is!" and always will be.

Quote time! "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one."

Beers on me! Irrespective of one's bias. :thumbsup:


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

sodak said:


> Yup..  I guess I live in the opposite but parallel universe as RockerC. I want to keep our "right" to own guns, but I wan't everyone to be responsible with them. It's not gonna happen.  Rocker wants no one to have guns and everyone live responsible, not gonna happen.  Hmm.... :skep: What do you do?
> 
> My vote is go after the criminals, help the mentally ill and ease the tension in society. Unfortunately, it's not gonna happen.....:madman:


You are definitely right on all counts... IF everyone felt the same way you do! Saying it's never gonna happen is a sure-fire way to ensure it never can... I prefer to live in what some might call a fool's paradise and think that everyone can help make a difference by doing just a little bit towards any goal they want to reach. Collective momentum is a powerful force


----------



## Neurotic OCD (May 8, 2013)

I've considered carrying when riding through long stretches of wooded areas that have populations of cougars and black bears. Ultimately, I decided against it - a firearm that can reliably take care of either animal is too unwieldy to carry on a bike ride. I took pepper spray instead.
On my regular rides - hell no. Sounds like way more of a hassle and liability than it's worth. I carry my little thing of pepper spray when I know I will ride through neighborhoods with loose dogs.
When I carry, it's a .40 or .45 caliber pistol in a IWB holster as a main gun. That requires a belt made for that purpose. That configuration is not going to happen on a bike ride for me. 
My backup is typically a .380 or small 9mm pocket gun, in a small pocket holster. More doable than the main gun, but still a hassle. 
I'm sure I could figure it out if I felt the need, but I just don't.


----------



## iscariot (Oct 24, 2006)

musikron said:


> The same statistical breakdown is found no matter the weapon. In places where there are no guns, knives and bludgeons do the same work.


Then you'll have no problem backing up your claim with links to the scientific papers that demonstrate this...


----------



## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

When I wear the lycra, it's a little difficult. Hurts if I tuck it between the legs.


----------



## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

*Here is my take (and I have been saying this for the last 5 years of riding trails in the woods)*

*I always wondered why more crime does not happen on the trails. * Here in South East Pa. from riding in Philly area and Central Pa. the cities have more video cameras than everywhere (Lancaster Pa., Amish Country has more cameras than anywhere in the Country for a small city!!) This article I read in the L.A.Times about that:

Lancaster, Pa., keeps a close eye on itself - Los Angeles Times

And this is an old article (I saw on the news they now have Double the camera's they put up then!!)---also that is a Huge tourist area and outside the city they have more stores and restaurants (and Outlet Malls) than anywhere!! and all those places have serious camera monitoring... you drive down route 30 through Lancaster and see cameras on every traffic light there!

No one ever gets away with any crime there (which is good)---but I always thought why the fools do not do more crime there IN THE WOODS, On Trails who have no cameras there!! (but just saw in that area that something bad did happen)---these 2 fools took this girl at the Wildlife Preserve there and burned her (killing her after stabbing her)--then came back for the body a second time!?!?!?!

Court Document: Men set victim on fire in Lancaster County woods | Lancaster News - WGAL Home

In Philly you got 'flash mobs', gang members who hang out in Fairmount Park at THE WISS trails (where I ride) and crack heads and violent vagrants up the street at the Belmont Trails...

Outside of Philly this guy on a bike trail got attacked (was carrying and killed one teen---these kids are crazy violent now and have zero respect for human life!!) so I know he was glad he was carrying then..

Boys Attack Cyclist Who Fights Back, Kills 1: Cops | NBC 10 Philadelphia

here is another crazy violent crime on the trail there:

2nd suspect surrenders in Berks bike path killing - Morning Call

----------------------So I would tell everyone carry something (pepper spray, knife, whatever you think you can handle and is appropriate for the area....)-----I know me, If I rode with Bears I would carry a gun (forget the pepper spray)----it is life and death at that point!! me, I like riding (and don't want to end up in a wheelchair because some fools broke my neck (stole my bike) and left me for dead....

So I have NO Problem with folks having whatever they think is necessary... Because I have seen some **** on the trails also (and know no Rangers go out to check on anything that I have seen at certain places.....)

So basically with no cameras (various entry points, etc...) I always thought the criminals would take advantage of this (and they certainly have in my area....) Also I know a lot of crimes in those areas DO NOT go reported if Rangers even find out (to make the area less attractive to people..... like Colleges do with keeping violent behavior from the general public newspapers....)


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Yama Arashi said:


> What exactly are you inferring? 50 million plus firearm owners didn't commit a crime today using a firearm


Oh, so _now_ "law abiding" means you haven't committed a crime with a handgun, "yet". Seems you should change the way you say that to "gun-law-abiding", as "law abiding" makes it sound as if you actually follow all the laws and rules, and we both know you do not.

So just what patterns ARE indicative of someone who is going to use a gun for violence, besides the obvious "used one before"?


----------



## sandiego (Sep 18, 2013)

Honestly, I can't think of anything more useless to pack on a mtb ride than a handgun... well, except maybe a rifle.


----------



## steveohio (Dec 6, 2013)

Hey. Here's something I think is something we should discuss, as it hasn't been brought up and I think is relevant.

What are the actual laws and legalities of carrying and transporting a firearm on a bike? 
Are they considered vehicles like an automobile? For a non ccw holder and ccw holders ? Are there any laws or previous cases on the subject?


----------



## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

steveohio said:


> What are the actual laws and legalities of carrying and transporting a firearm on a bike?
> Are they considered vehicles like an automobile?


In most jurisdictions, yes.


----------



## Neurotic OCD (May 8, 2013)

steveohio said:


> Hey. Here's something I think is something we should discuss, as it hasn't been brought up and I think is relevant.
> 
> What are the actual laws and legalities of carrying and transporting a firearm on a bike?
> Are they considered vehicles like an automobile? For a non ccw holder and ccw holders ? Are there any laws or previous cases on the subject?


Individual state laws may vary, but the concealment laws typically specify motor vehicles. Transporting firearms in motor vehicles has special restrictions because they can be concealed.


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

sandiego said:


> Honestly, I can't think of anything more useless to pack on a mtb ride than a handgun... well, except maybe a rifle.


Yeah but a rocket launcher would be awesome:thumbsup:


----------



## sandiego (Sep 18, 2013)

Yama Arashi said:


> Pardon my continual additions and corrections.
> 
> I don't think anyone denies that firearms are most certainly used in any number of negative ways, and I wholeheartedly agree with your notion of trying to prevent people from taking criminal and murderous courses.
> 
> ...


You might be surprised to know that Switzerland has much stricter gun laws than the U.S. I have friends who were born and raised there, served the mandatory military service and own the service weapon issued to them. The ammo is severely restricted, handguns and carry of a weapon are restricted but then the Swiss are very used to extreme governmental restrictions and high taxes and as such they have a very good social structure and support system to deal with citizens who are not mentally stable. Comparing Switzerland to the United States is like comparing paradise to the wild west cartoon pic you posted.


----------



## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

That is a good question?? I just know you would not want to take your family and run into some of these crazy vagrants I have seen living on trails in Central Pa... I have even told the rangers about it when I have seen them and they know the homeless folks stay there (one time someone was throwing rocks at his supermarket basket he had blocking the road to his tent..) Guess they don't get involved unless they get violent toward folks... 

but all it takes is one of them smoking something they can get there hands on and then get into a violent rage (and I know if you had your family at the park, in the woods, you would then wish you were prepared!!!)---that is my 2 cents..... cause not everyone rides trails in Colorado (or some famous trails system where crime like this is non existent...)


----------



## sandiego (Sep 18, 2013)

247 said:


> That is a good question?? I just know you would not want to take your family and run into some of these crazy vagrants I have seen living on trails in Central Pa... I have even told the rangers about it when I have seen them and they know the homeless folks stay there (one time someone was throwing rocks at his supermarket basket he had blocking the road to his tent..) Guess they don't get involved unless they get violent toward folks...
> 
> but all it takes is one of them smoking something they can get there hands on and then get into a violent rage (and I know if you had your family at the park, in the woods, you would then wish you were prepared!!!)---that is my 2 cents..... cause not everyone rides trails in Colorado (or some famous trails system where crime like this is non existent...)


I have to ask you then, why would you take your family riding there? Honestly, if I felt that I had to carry a gun with me when I went riding I probably just wouldn't go riding... or I'd go someplace else.

Carrying a gun seems like the answer to the question nobody with any sanity ever asked.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

sandiego said:


> I have to ask you then, why would you take your family riding there? Honestly, if I felt that I had to carry a gun with me when I went riding I probably just wouldn't go riding... or I'd go someplace else.
> 
> Carrying a gun seems like the answer to the question nobody with any sanity ever asked.


By your logic a person could never take their family anywhere.


----------



## Centurion_ (Aug 13, 2011)

steveohio said:


> What are the actual laws and legalities of carrying and transporting a firearm on a bike?
> Are they considered vehicles like an automobile? For a non ccw holder and ccw holders ? Are there any laws or previous cases on the subject?


Carrying a concealed weapon in a motor vehicle just adds a few twists to the ccw law, depending on your state. And the laws do vary a great deal state by state.

For example, any adult who is not a convicted felon can carry a concealed weapon in Arizona now without a permit and with no training. (This just passed last year). Try that in California and you may well do some prison time.

But your post raises a excellent point. Know your state and local laws with regard to concealed carry and the lawful justification for the use of deadly force before you even THINK about carrying a concealed weapon. And be very familiar with the characteristics of the weapon you choose to carry.


----------



## sandiego (Sep 18, 2013)

AZ said:


> By your logic a person could never take their family anywhere.


I take my wife and son everywhere. Your logic is fail.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

sandiego said:


> I take my wife and son everywhere. Your logic is fail.


Just as I thought.


----------



## sandiego (Sep 18, 2013)

AZ said:


> Just as I thought.


You choose to believe everyone is out to get you, I choose to believe that most people are good and reasonable. 99% of the time I am right. I'll play those odds.


----------



## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

sandiego said:


> You choose to believe everyone is out to get you, I choose to believe that most people are good and reasonable. 99% of the time I am right. I'll play those odds.


When it comes to family you better be right 100 % of the time. Talk about logic fail. And just because you have a different point of view does not give you the right to insult people like you did in the other gun thread, that's why I negged you. This thread has been pretty civil until your arrival.


----------



## sandiego (Sep 18, 2013)

floydlippencott said:


> When it comes to family you better be right 100 % of the time. Talk about logic fail.


Nobody can be right 100% of the time. Talk about logic fail.

I'll take my chances.


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

sandiego said:


> Comparing Switzerland to the United States is like comparing paradise to the wild west cartoon pic you posted.


Covered the reasoning for that example back on #421.

And I don't know if it's some sort of snobbish intention or not, but floydlippencott is spot on in regard to you coming off as a douche with the way you present your opinions, along with belittling those with differing opinions.


----------



## sandiego (Sep 18, 2013)

Yama Arashi said:


> Covered the reasoning for that example back on #421.
> 
> And I don't know if it's some sort of snobbish intention or not, but floydlippencott is spot on in regard to you coming off as a douche with the way you present your opinions, along with belittling those with differing opinions.


It's true... I am a douche who doesn't care about his family. If I did I would obviously carry a gun.


----------



## sandiego (Sep 18, 2013)

floydlippencott said:


> When it comes to family you better be right 100 % of the time. Talk about logic fail. And just because you have a different point of view does not give you the right to insult people like you did in the other gun thread, *that's why I negged you.* This thread has been pretty civil until your arrival.


Cry


----------



## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> When it comes to family you better be right 100 % of the time. Talk about logic fail. And just because you have a different point of view does not give you the right to insult people like you did in the other gun thread


Exactly what I am saying!!! but these snobs only like to hear their own opinion on here (why the other thread I posted will probably get shut down eventually!!)----especially when folks start posting their gun collection (but that is something I would do also----to shut these fools up quick!!!)


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Look, I carry around a fire extinguisher because I'd rather have a fire extinguisher and not need it than have a fire and no extinguisher. I realize there are authorities that put out fires, but what if man? All day I dream about being the hero that puts out the fire. I have one where I can get to it if I need it at all times.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

sandiego said:


> You might be surprised to know that Switzerland has much stricter gun laws than the U.S.


You might be even more surprised to learn that Switzerland has a population of about 8 million and nowhere near the same dynamics that exist in the US. Try Australia or maybe look up the nations with the highest quality of life and see how what their gun laws are? Oh, you probably won't like what you find, pay close attention to their registration and qualification requirements. Nothing like the US.


----------



## Gordon Shumway (Sep 17, 2012)

So, what's the consensus on circumcision? Yea or nay?

Edit: wrong thread


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Gordon Shumway said:


> So, what's the consensus on circumcision? Yea or nay?
> 
> Edit: wrong thread


You are not american if you don't carry around a fire extinguisher.


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I'm working on a helmet mounted lightning rod, but the grounding cable has me temporarily stymied. I'm not riding again until I perfect it, I'd rather have it and not need it than...... never mind.


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm working on a helmet mounted lightning rod, but the grounding cable has me temporarily stymied. I'm not riding again until I perfect it, I'd rather have it and not need it than...... never mind.


Simple solution to that JB, copper brush from the fork crown down to a copper strip around the center circumference of the tire... Just to add some much-needed conductivity in those instances where lightning strikes before the rainfall, you run a tube from your dangly part to the front tire, and make sure you drink a lot of water before the storm... simple really!

Seems this thread has devolved from some sort of half-constructive discussion to petty name-calling, so I'm out of here until the inevitable next CC thread... Maybe I will have changed my mind by then, I do try to keep an open mind, but I think that would be unlikely... peace to you all.


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

sandiego said:


> You choose to believe everyone is out to get you, I choose to believe that most people are good and reasonable. 99% of the time I am right. I'll play those odds.


But every body is out to get AZ well maybe just the bike he supposedly won:skep:


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

Jayem said:


> You might be even more surprised to learn that Switzerland has a population of about 8 million and nowhere near the same dynamics that exist in the US. Try Australia or maybe look up the nations with the highest quality of life and see how what their gun laws are? Oh, you probably won't like what you find, pay close attention to their registration and qualification requirements. Nothing like the US.


Both Australia and Canada with a good quality way of life have stricter gun controls than that of the USA, so what is your point exactly?


----------



## tysonnemb (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm not a gun guy, but a friend of mine is. He bikes and runs. He likes to carry for his own personal reasons. He ran to the gym once with a really cool bag that holds the weapon flat against his chest. I think it was called Hill People gear? He spoke really highly of it. Comfortable to run and bike with. 

Just googled it. It is hill people gear. It's one of the kit bags.


----------



## socalMX (Oct 31, 2009)

All I need. Come at me, go ahead!


----------



## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm working on a helmet mounted lightning rod, but the grounding cable has me temporarily stymied. I'm not riding again until I perfect it, I'd rather have it and not need it than...... never mind.


Drag a woven metal grounding strip attached to the back of your stylish fender. Cars used to have them.


----------



## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

socalMX said:


> All I need. Come at me, go ahead!


This is how cougars attack. This is how you fight them off. Please not that the place in North America with the highest number of cougars per square mile has had 16 attacks and 3 deaths over a 32 year period.

"08/05/2002 12:27 AM 
61 Year Old Man Fights Off Cougar With Pocket Knife

Dave Parker was walking down a road near Port Alice in British Columbia when a 100 pound Cougar leapt on him from behind. Despite being mauled by the animal and receiving serious wounds, Dave managed to reach his knife and slit the animals throat.

Dave then had to walk almost a mile to get help before he was taken to a hospital in Victoria. Dave is currently said to be in a stable condition after undergoing surgery to repair wounds inflicted by the Cougar.

Since 1970 Vancouver Island has had 16 Cougar attacks and 3 people have died. The last fatality occurred when a 36 year old woman defended her son from a Cougar in 1996."


----------



## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

socalMX said:


> All I need. Come at me, go ahead!


Really? That much? This is all I need.


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

Tried to inject some humor into this thread, and now feel compelled to add some logic.
Will probably go over like a fart in church, but what the hell... if I didn't gave a rat's azz ~~( o ) I'd ignore.

Statistically, the most dangerous thing any of us do is - to drive a car.
Away from the trail-head parking lot, very little crime is committed. 
While exercising, adrenaline can overtake common sense.*

It never ceases to amaze me, some of the stupid arrogant things some people will post on the interwebs, or say miles from safety.
Bears are far more afraid of humans, and unless protecting their cubs, or starving will always avoid you.
Lived in AK, where to go remote backpacking /camping - it's recommended to carry a 12 ga. pump with 5 slugs.
(this sucks, as it sticks out of your pack like an antenna, and above treeline I damn near got zapped by lightning.)
The closest trail call I've had in 35 years was getting between a cow moose, and her calf. Once I started talking calmly she sauntered off.

* Anyone remember this guy?? :eekster:



















He plead guilty to assault. Now imagine if he was CCW. Yes, he got his butt kicked, humiliated on YouTube, and in court. 
Far less damaging then to be incarcerated for killing some dude who only wanted to pass you on the trail.

Think before you speak. Think about your tone. Think before offending one who is suffering from oxygen debt, and may be packing heat.

If out riding, and a homeless crack head actually approaches, it's easier to reach into your pack to give $ than to shoot them. 
Texting during movie previews when they promote local news does not impact anyone's life. Take a deep breathe and relax.
IBTB


----------



## socalMX (Oct 31, 2009)

Youtube link?


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Flyin_W said:


> Tried to inject some humor into this thread, and now feel compelled to add some logic.
> Will probably go over like a fart in church, but what the hell... if I didn't gave a rat's azz ~~( o ) I'd ignore.
> 
> Statistically, the most dangerous thing any of us do is - to drive a car.
> ...


Ha,ha good one FW and yes I remember that and the thread / threads about it. Oh and thanks for keeping my rats ass symbol alive and well.
~(*)

I'm really butt hurt that nobody has even showed concern on finding my shorts I seemed to have lost along the way in this thread.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

socalMX said:


> Youtube link?


Here ya go...


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I'm really butt hurt that nobody has even showed concern on finding my shorts I seemed to have lost along the way in this thread.


I'm keeping an eye out for them but so far nothing. Was there a cougar nearby when you last saw them?


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Here ya go...


Full video that shows da bumblebee's true colors, and likely why he was found guilty.
Assaulted on the Flying Nun - Nek Minnit video - YouTube


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Flyin_W said:


> Full video that shows da bumblebee's true colors, and likely why he was found guilty.
> Assaulted on the Flying Nun - Nek Minnit video - YouTube


Freaking jackass and I remember this must have been at least 2 years go. So he just went to court on it and was found guilty of assault?


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

^ Yes on July 23, 2013 he was charged with assault.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

^^It looks like he ended up pleading guilty.

Port Hills Trail Rage Mountain Biker Pleads Guilty...


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Flyin_W said:


> ^ Yes on July 23, 2013 he was charged with assault.





Mookie said:


> ^^It looks like he ended up pleading guilty.
> 
> Port Hills Trail Rage Mountain Biker Pleads Guilty...


Ha good deal, I hope they threw the book at him. And not just any book, hopefully a heavy thick hard covered book. 

I wonder if after this whole incident and being shown for who he really is to all mtbers if he still wears his now famous "yellow bumblebee jersey".


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> Ha good deal I hope they threw the book at him. And not just any book, hopefully a heavy thick hard covered book.
> 
> I wonder if after this whole incident and being shown for who he really is to all mtbers if he still wears his now famous "yellow bumblebee jersey".


Heck, he might even have some goupies now.


----------



## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> If out riding, and a homeless crack head actually approaches, it's easier to reach into your pack to give $ than to shoot them.


I Fully concur 150%!!! I ALWAYS give homeless money (that is just me)----especially at 30th Street Station (in Philly) where the crackheads ask for $3-5, then get MAD and Curse you out when you give them $1.50...

The funny thing is that most MTB's I see on the trail are 6-figure Republicans.. And they are real quick to tell the vagrants to GET A JOB... I am sure also that most trail violence goes unreported..

I ran into a biker who said that hiker's would sick their dogs on him (to bite him)-----and he would just keep riding (not reporting anything!!)


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

247 said:


> The funny thing is that most MTB's I see on the trail are 6-figure Republicans.. And they are real quick to tell the vagrants to GET A JOB... I am sure also that most trail violence goes unreported..


Where do you ride, Beverly Hills?


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

Number of physical altercations previous to me carrying a gun at all times, dunno exactly, probable a couple dozen. 
Number of physical confrontations since CCW, ZERO. Yup nada. Ok, one partial incident where I was assaulted. I have only brandished a firearm once and that was the instance, two quick blows to my head and I produced my firearm. Guy takes off running for his life, I report it to the police, end of story. Had I not had a gun, I would have responded with physical violence to try to regain control of the situation. Does that mean I no longer encounter *******s? No way Jose, they are out in full force, but my handling of the situation is completely different. I am much more calm and my tolerance for what constitutes a forceful response is much higher than it was unarmed.
At any point I can produce my pistol and end a life. (we can all do this, gun or not, so try not to have a pre programmed response to that statement. You can strangle anyone with your bare hands after all) That is a large amount of power, and it brings a large amount of responsibility that you are very aware of (unlike when you are operating the most effective killing machine ever invented, the automobile). That fact brings a large level of security into my life, which manifests itself in my interactions with people. The insecure person tries to fight and exert control over others, the secure person has a very "live and let live" attitude, and an unwillingness to engage a hostile person unless physical harm is imminent and or occurring, making a physical confrontation absolutely necessary. 

So all these unarmed people want to fight over a parking space or getting passed on the trail, not recognizing that you can seriously maim or even kill someone with one blow to the head. So they are willing (hopefully only out of their ignorance) to take a life over some petty bullshit.
I as a CCW, realize that any of these confrontations can result in death, so only in a circumstance where death is an appropriate response will I be willing to engage someone.

Yes, an armed society is a polite society. 

People fight because they feel powerless, and are trying to regain a sense of control. Having a gun on me means ion no situation do I feel powerless


----------



## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> Where do you ride, Beverly Hills?


THE WISS in Philly.. it is located in 19118 (Chestnut Hill area) which about 10 years ago was 2nd to household Income next to Beverly Hills..

You can read about it here:

Wissahickon Valley Trail - Philadelphia, PA | Yelp

---------------But yeah in the Northeast United States go to most major trailhead destinations and you are very unlikely to see any cars UNDER $50K there on the weekends (with bike racks..)

And I must say that most if the bikes I do see are worth MORE than the average car you might see parked down the street....


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

musikron said:


> Yes, an armed society is a polite society.


Inner Phoenix is "polite"?


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Jayem said:


> Inner Phoenix is "polite"?


It doesn't get sketchy until you get outside of the Biltmore.


----------



## Neurotic OCD (May 8, 2013)

> An armed society is a polite society


Often quoted, but seldom is it accurate to attempt a correlation between a society's politeness and it being armed. 
In fact, so many modern counter-examples come to mind that it is baffling the quote comes up at all.
Hello war-torn 3rd world countries with AK's at every street corner for mere dollars. I am guessing those places are not very polite despite all that armament. Perhaps a bad example, let's try again. How about Afghanistan and its neighbor Pakistan? Again, much in the way of arms but probably not too polite.
Let's approach it from the other end of the spectrum, shall we? Canada is well known for being polite, surely they MUST be armed to the teeth! 
How about some Nordic countries like Iceland, Sweden, Denmark, Finland? I've been to most of those and I can assure you, they are very nice places with a polite populace. Wouldn't call them heavily armed, though. I spent my childhood in Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Switzerland, Hungary, and Austria. All very polite, and only one of them ever comes up in the same sentence as arms - Switzerland. And even there, you won't find them being carried about everywhere.

Look - nothing against firearms. I carry occasionally. But this armed = polite is nothing but BS. And even if you did want to argue that point, consider that the politeness would be very forced because people are afraid. No thank you. I prefer genuinely polite people instead of fearful fakes.


----------



## sandiego (Sep 18, 2013)

musikron said:


> Yes, an armed society is a polite society.


Yep, these two idiots are the epitome of polite.
Josh Sugarmann: Rude Awakening: Two CCW Holders Kill One Another


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

I guess since this thread has been trolled into a state of disrepair, I'll derail a second and respond to the bum comment. I refuse the PC correct homeless in this instance. Anyone who "bums" money off the public is the textbook definition of a "bum".
I personally am self employed and broke, disabled but not collecting benefits yet (I know the day will come but I am the type that would rather struggle on my own than ask for help if I don't have to) and have been homeless myself as a child and young adult.

I refuse to give any homeless person so much as one penny. If you think you are helping them think again, you are enabling them. I have on occasion put one or two of them to work, but that is a different situation. Giving them an opportunity to earn a dollar may actually improve their station in life, where as dropping it in a cup only ensures they never have anything. 

I don't go around burning their tent cities or anything, but if they ask me for money more than once they get quite a lecture. If I can go from sleeping in the bushes outside my middle school to this nice, warm, little house with power, internet, bikes, guitars, and guns without once resorting to asking for handouts, then there is no excuse for anyone else.


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

Incidents happen every day, in any given country. The odds are always in your favor considering the sheer numbers/percentages, until your number comes up.

I realize some here will take issue considering the source, but these are all documented cases, and only a tiny fraction of all that occur, whether for better or worse.

Make a mockery of differing opinions, mentalities, and cliche' sayings as you will, but there are plenty of actual scenarios where people were most certainly glad to have such a tool at their disposal.

NRA-ILA | Armed Citizen


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Yama Arashi said:


> Incidents happen every day, in any given country. The odds are always in your favor considering the sheer numbers/percentages, until your number comes up.
> 
> I realize some here will take issue considering the source, but these are all documented cases, and only a tiny fraction of all that occur, whether for better or worse.
> 
> ...


So we should all carry in every day life. That way we can protect ourselves from those that carry with bad intent. ut:

If everyone has a gun it would be like the old west. Every man for himself and one with the quicker draw wins.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> So we should all carry in every day life. That way we can protect ourselves from those that carry with bad intent. ut:
> 
> If everyone has a gun it would be like the old west. Every man for himself and one with the quicker draw wins.


Bullshit. Concealed carry is legal in many states and the "old west" conditions you speak of simply do not exist. Enough with histrionic trolling.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

AZ said:


> Bullshit. Concealed carry is legal in many states and the "old west" conditions you speak of simply do not exist. Enough with histrionic trolling.


So how is the crime down there in Phoenix? lol...

I (after living in AZ) again live in a state where it's legal to conceal carry without a permit or anything. We also have one of, if not the, highest rate of violence per capital. More gunz is making us more safer!


----------



## Yama Arashi (Jul 22, 2013)

As if legal concealed carriers are the major cause of any given states crime problems. 

Texas study: Concealed carry permit holders commit less than 1% of the crimes.

Concealed Carry Laws Increase Crime | Hawaii Concealed Carry

Fact Check: Do concealed weapons lower crime rates? :: WRAL.com

http://www.uwplatt.edu/~wiegmake/Intro_Files/CJ - paper example.pdf

Few crimes committed by concealed-carry permit holders in Kansas | Wichita Eagle

http://www.sj-r.com/x1526463189/Concealed-carry-laws-Experts-debate-impact/?tag=1


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Jayem said:


> So how is the crime down there in Phoenix? lol...
> 
> I (after living in AZ) again live in a state where it's legal to conceal carry without a permit or anything. We also have one of, if not the, highest rate of violence per capital. More gunz is making us more safer!


Yeah, the drug and alcohol abuse has nothing to do with it. How are the crime rates in D.C. which has some of the most restrictive guns legislation in the country? Enough rhetoric.

Edit: Violent crime is actually declining in AZ. despite the lax gun laws, contrary to what the reactionary anti's would have you believe.


----------



## MitchD (Jun 16, 2010)

Sorry I did not read the previous 19 pages so here goes. First of all do not call them bums, the new pc term is "urban outdoorsman" , next is so many people worry about weight obsessing over how many grams this stem weighs and so forth. How much does a pistol weigh? I have a vintage desert eagle using a wildcat cartridge (bain and davis .41) and it might be a bit heavy to carry cuz you always carry at least one extra clip. The bain and davis cartridge is a 41 magnum shell necked down to 357


----------



## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> I refuse to give any homeless person so much as one penny. If you think you are helping them think again, you are enabling them. I have on occasion put one or two of them to work, but that is a different situation. Giving them an opportunity to earn a dollar may actually improve their station in life, where as dropping it in a cup only ensures they never have anything.
> 
> I don't go around burning their tent cities or anything, but if they ask me for money more than once they get quite a lecture


Me, I look at it this way. A Lot of times they are asking for money where I park my car on the street (and I tell them watch my car and i'll hook you up when I return)---that kinda' stops the slashed tire, broken window, or the feces on your hood....

So a lot of it is just 'playing the game they set up' to stop something bad from happening (then telling the cops it was probably this bum I did not give money to-----only to have the cop say, "Well you would have saved a lot of hassle to give some change..." When you see that your views change..

Also a lot of these guys are former military (have training to kill people) and are mentally ill. I NEVER give anyone a lecture (because you just never know where there head is at in life)----and if they decide to end to end life there (I don't want mine ending with them)----or have them try and bite your ear off!!!!

--Now when I see someone (usually younger and very abled-body)---if I give them change I tell them what they can do (for example) to make $$ (instead of bumming off of people when they look very physically able to work)------I used to work at a pizza place in College and the owner would give homeless money (and food) to come n and fold the pizza boxes (or clean up something..)

So just with cheap labor being what it is you could usually find something to do to make money... Even carrying groceries to your car. In philly the supermarkets have a .25 cent slot on the handle that you have to bring the cart back (and clamp it to another cart) just to get your quarter back... and a lot of homeless will take your cart back for you just for the quarter...

ALSO I DO NOT like giving to Charities because every time I turn on the news you see the charities (and the celebrities) taking 90% of the money you thought was going to the homeless.. SO I TRY to cut out the middle man and just give a dollar if I see someone who really looks like they need it (but that is just me...)

Again, I have seen (on Broad and Olney) years ago homeless beating up people who try and lecture them... I even broke up a fight one time realizing what had happened... So figure for some change is it worth that?? OR JUST SAY No.... I know people who will not give a penny to anyone (but that ain't me)---I try to help folks when and how I can..

Everyone needs help sometime in life!!!


----------



## deke505 (Jul 29, 2012)

Okay crime is dropping in a lot of areas including ccw states and non ccw states. I am sorry but because one carries does not mean the crime will drop or rise and same goes for the states that do not allow ccws. All these stats show is nothing, for every stat one shows there is another stat that counters that. 

Some of us feel we need it, some of us don't. Because one carries does not make the area automaticly safe. The only thing that a ccw will do is to make one self feel safer, it doesn't mean necessary that one is safer (we don't have eyes behind our heads yet so no stopping some one coming from behind) it is just a personal choice. 

The only thing that needs and would help some of these shootings is more help and awareness of mental illness.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

deke505 said:


> The only thing that needs and would help some of these shootings is more help and awareness of mental illness.


The lack of treatment and care for those that suffer from debilitating mental illness is a real crime.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

AZ said:


> Yeah, the drug and alcohol abuse has nothing to do with it. How are the crime rates in D.C.


I can attest, they are no good. South East D.C. is the modern day "wild west".


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

AZ said:


> The lack of treatment and care for those that suffer from debilitating mental illness is a real crime.


So you'd be ok with more money being spent for this? Maybe marginally higher taxes to pay for it?


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Jayem said:


> So you'd be ok with more money being spent for this? Maybe marginally higher taxes to pay for it?


I'd be okay with using some of the squandered billions of tax dollars already paid being used for it.


----------



## Gumbi4Prez (Jan 2, 2014)

Isn't it hipacritical to chest thump about ones 2nd ammendment right while stepping on everyone's 1st?


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

If people smoked more pot, there would be less violent crime! ;-)

Outrage in New York after Bill de Blasio uses knife and fork to eat pizza - Telegraph


----------



## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

Gumbi4Prez said:


> Isn't it hipacritical to chest thump about ones 2nd ammendment right while stepping on everyone's 1st?


You seem to have exercised your 1st amendment right without interference from anyone, misspelled words and all. Weak troll on your part.


----------



## Gumbi4Prez (Jan 2, 2014)

Clearly my grammar and spell check is inferior to such high statur. My appologizes to the nobles.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

^ why has no one claimed "sock" yet?


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

sodak said:


> ^ why has no one claimed "sock" yet?
> 
> View attachment 863467


The Sock got called out in the O.C. about a week ago. Now we await the ban hammer.

http://forums.mtbr.com/off-camber-off-topic/awesome-quotes-895012.html


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

AZ said:


> The Sock got called out in the O.C. about a week ago. Now we await the ban hammer.
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/off-camber-off-topic/awesome-quotes-895012.html


Sleeping at the wheel here... missed that one. Thanks!


----------



## Gumbi4Prez (Jan 2, 2014)

Thanks for chiming in grand poobah.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Anybody have a sleeping bag. It looks like we could be in for a long haul on this one.


----------



## swingset (Oct 14, 2010)

Gumbi4Prez said:


> Isn't it hipacritical to chest thump about ones 2nd ammendment right while stepping on everyone's 1st?


Who is being prevented from speaking or communicating?


----------



## travr6 (May 30, 2011)

This is about the best thing I have seen so far but have not purchased one yet.
Seems kind of high for what it is.

http://hillpeoplegear.com/Products/tabid/762/ctl/ProductDetails/mid/1916/ProductID/67/Default.aspx

If you carry you really want it concealed. You don't want to open carry.
You definitely want it on your side or front for quick access.


----------



## longhaultrucker (Jan 24, 2007)

I do,legally (I'm licensed),I'm well trained,and no one I've ever ridden with has been the wiser/seen it...no one ever will unless deadly force of some kind is necessary.


----------



## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

I'd like it much better with a snap or hook-and-loop closure. Zippers work smoothly most of the time when you work them right, but I don't like the idea of a zipper being in the way to draw a handgun.


----------



## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

Couldn't imagine riding with a gun on my person! I'd be sh!t scared I might shoot myself 

for what it's worth... safety in numbers - would be my advice


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

travr6 said:


> This is about the best thing I have seen so far but have not purchased one yet.
> Seems kind of high for what it is.
> 
> http://hillpeoplegear.com/Products/tabid/762/ctl/ProductDetails/mid/1916/ProductID/67/Default.aspx
> ...


If you're not a blatant troll, why open this can of worms again? You've already started it in your other thread.

Muppet...


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

zanedog said:


> Revolvers should be carried with no bullet under the firing pin, auto's should be carried with no shell in the chamber.
> 
> 
> > You should stop posting now. Your ignorance is showing.


----------



## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

How many grams is a gun with a full magazine anyway? 

Im not going to carry until the entire gun is carbon fiber with carbon fiber rounds.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

Always condition 1 zanedog, ALWAYS. A good holster and modern firearm design has all but removed the AD from our lexicon.


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

zanedog said:


> Silentfoe said:
> 
> 
> > zanedog said:
> ...


----------



## Gus69 (Nov 4, 2012)

Riding with a concealed weapon ?

That would give minimum 1 year in jail if I got stopped by the police.


----------



## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

zanedog said:


> zanedog said:
> 
> 
> > Revolvers should be carried with no bullet under the firing pin, auto's should be carried with no shell in the chamber.
> ...


If you cock a revolver that _had_ an empty chamber under the firing pin but the other chambers loaded, it will be ready to fire upon pulling the trigger. (Or even without the separate cocking motion, if it's DA.)

The advise against carrying a revolver with a round under the firing pin is from a time when the firing pin was on the hammer itself, so if the hammer was hit hard enough it could break or slip the sear and fire. Modern revolvers have a transfer plate, which prevents the firing pin from being pushed unless the trigger is fully depressed. It is 100% safe to have a loaded chamber under the firing pin, because the transfer plate is out of the way and the hammer rests against, not against the sear nor against the firing pin, but the solid metal on top of it. You could throw it out of a damn airplane and it wouldn't fire upon hitting ground. If you want to prevent a modern revolver from being fired after cocking it and pulling the trigger, you'll need to have an empty chamber _next_ to the one under the firing pin.


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

zanedog said:


> A loaded gun should not be carried, an unloaded gun is not dangerous.
> Let the following video be a warning why no one needs to quick draw a loaded gun. What is the hurry?


Hmm... What is the point of carrying if you are not chambered? And, as for what's the hurry on the draw!? well... Think about that one for me will ya? A loaded gun is NOT dangerous, but a yahoo with one IS. I.E... Shooting holes in someones ceiling to prove a point... What we need is more people control and less gun control...:eekster:


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Zanedog, you really need to stop. You aren't winning points with either the pro or anti gun crowds. You have zero idea what you are talking about and you are dangerous.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

Gus69 said:


> Riding with a concealed weapon ?
> 
> That would give minimum 1 year in jail if I got stopped by the police.


Not if you get your CCW it won't.


----------



## GoGoGordo (Jul 16, 2006)

Flyin_W said:


> Full video that shows da bumblebee's true colors, and likely why he was found guilty.
> Assaulted on the Flying Nun - Nek Minnit video - YouTube


I'm sure most of you gun nuts would have shot him.
I know I would.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

Again, these are the animals we carry protection against, not lions, tigers, and bears.
GoPro Captures Mountain Biker Robbed At Gunpoint - Video


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

So what are you going to do in that situation? Take off your camelback, dig out the gun and shoot. The dude had the advantage from the start, the victim would never have had a chance to get to his firearm in time. None of the carrying options discussed in these gun threads would have made any difference.


----------



## Centurion_ (Aug 13, 2011)

Mookie said:


> So what are you going to do in that situation? Take off your camelback, dig out the gun and shoot. The dude had the advantage from the start, the victim would never have had a chance to get to his firearm in time. None of the carrying options discussed in these gun threads would have made any difference.


And of course, every scenario will play out exactly like that one did.


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

Not a thing. A bike is replaceable, you are not. They are irrational, and likely whacked on crack. This is a no win situation. 

Thanks to the video footage all 3 were arrested, and the rider was not shot.

(tapa)


----------



## Trajan556 (Jul 22, 2013)

Mookie said:


> So what are you going to do in that situation? Take off your camelback, dig out the gun and shoot. The dude had the advantage from the start, the victim would never have had a chance to get to his firearm in time. None of the carrying options discussed in these gun threads would have made any difference.


Or you can just carry your gun like you normally do...


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

musikron said:


> Again, these are the animals we carry protection against, not lions, tigers, and bears.
> GoPro Captures Mountain Biker Robbed At Gunpoint - Video


Well, I'll note that if I'm ever going to go mountain biking in Cape Town, South Africa, where this happened, I'll need to plan 90 days ahead so I can get my South African CCW license. Plus, I'll be able to carry into any Chili's restaurants I can find in the country. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Trajan556 said:


> Or you can just carry your gun like you normally do...


If you mean a holster, same deal. The other guys had the advantage, it was an amubush. While the victim is reaching for his weapon the two armed criminals in this example pull the trigger.


----------



## swingset (Oct 14, 2010)

Mookie said:


> So what are you going to do in that situation? Take off your camelback, dig out the gun and shoot. The dude had the advantage from the start, the victim would never have had a chance to get to his firearm in time. None of the carrying options discussed in these gun threads would have made any difference.


You are reading a different thread than I am, sport...I've seen several posts noting carry methods that would have been ideal for situations just like that. I carry IWB (appendix) when I ride. I would have been off that bike and had that gun out the instant the first guy started running for me....and I'd suspect the biker in the video saw him well in time to know something was up....they were in the open, facing the bike, in broad daylight.

I have experienced the same thing, stopped at a light one time pedaling around town and a pitbull came over a fence and advanced on me, I dropped the bike, backed up and drew my pistol (luckily it stopped short of me and just barked) but I had time to respond....in fact, it's eerily similar to that video in distance & time.

I wouldn't carry in my camelbak, for precisely these reasons - might as well leave it in the car. **** goes down fast, but in this case the BG was in sight and acting strangely well before biker got to him.

This incident went down just losing his bike and valuables, what if the robbers were inclined to kill him? Just ride and hope for the best, or resist while you're able? I'll go for the latter 100% of the time.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

duplicate


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

swingset said:


> You are reading a different thread than I am, sport...I've seen several posts noting carry methods that would have been helpful. I carry IWB (appendix) when I ride. I would have been off that bike and had that gun out the instant he started running for me....and I'd suspect the biker in the video saw him well in time to know something was up.


Still too late, sport. They saw the victim first.


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

^ Was the pibull packing heat, and did he have two armed cohorts? Different scenario, and now you're just sounding like an iTough guy.

(tapa)


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

If we are using this particular example as an example to be used in every case, then it is clear that not having a gun is the best way to go. Biker walks away unharmed. Gopro gets enough evidence so that all 3 perps were caught. Nobody dies. Great example of how a gunfight doesn't have to solve every problem. Again, thanks for the tip.


----------



## Gordon Shumway (Sep 17, 2012)

Looks like there is another guy standing in the bush in the direction they told him to run.. IMO I think giving up the bike etc is the better choice here, regardless how accessible a gun would have been if the rider had one.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

musikron said:


> Again, these are the animals we carry protection against, not lions, tigers, and bears.
> GoPro Captures Mountain Biker Robbed At Gunpoint - Video


Thanks for sharing.

The ideal is not necessarily to carry a CCW. in a fast IWB holster, with a Permit. but to have the liberty to so without breaking any laws or incurring any legal liability for merely exercising that freedom.

An important distinction that many do not distinguish.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

Trajan556 said:


> Or you can just carry your gun like you normally do...


 This.

Even in the video you saw the guy coming from a long ways off. He had a sub compact handgun, so even in the hands of an expert marksman (not some tweaker), a moving target at more than about 15 yards is next to impossible to hit. Those guns are useless beyond 30ft. I personally would have hit the pedals as hard as I could and bolted in this particular situation. It looked pretty open there and the guys didn't have a rifle or anything. If fleeing is not an option, it takes me longer to stop my bike than it does to draw my weapon. The bike can take 3 or more seconds to stop, the gun can be accessed in about 0.75 - 1 second. If you have a gun pointed at me in the commission of a crime, I assume you have no qualms with using it. I refuse to let some pos junkie decide my fate. I'm a ****ing athlete in prime shape that actually trains with my weapon, you are some crackhead degenerate who probably put .380 in your stolen C9 Saturday night special. I'll take those odds any day.

And jail does nothing but make the ruling class criminals more money. It's a farce, criminals should all be lynched in the street.


----------



## TrailNut (Apr 6, 2004)

If a CCW Permit holder was carrying a .45 ACP pistol and actually chose to defend self and actually survived with only minor recoverable injuries then such video would not be shared in a public Internet forum.

Unarmed man can only flee from evil gun men, & evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.

Cops miss about 80% of their shots while armed civilians hit about 70%
because non-cops must account for every bullet and also likely have practiced more.


----------



## swingset (Oct 14, 2010)

Mookie said:


> Still too late, sport. They saw the victim first.


Who ****ing cares who saw who first? It's not a staring contest.

The truth is in any dynamic violent crime the person acting first has a tremendous advantage, but being drawn on or approached first does not preclude one from acting and reacting and winning the fight.

There's plenty of videos out there of gunfights where the victim is closer, with less time to act, and comes out victorious. Put your bias away and go look at them, or stay invested in your viewpoint...I suspect that's your happy place.

Here's one:
LiveLeak.com - Off-duty cop kills robbery suspect; 2 escape Pullman gas station


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

I wonder how many AZ socks are working this thread? Kudos to any non-sock making reasonable points, no mater which side you're taking.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

swingset said:


> Who ****ing cares who saw who first? It's not a staring contest.
> 
> The truth is in any dynamic violent crime the person acting first has a tremendous advantage, but being drawn on or approached first does not preclude one from acting and reacting and winning the fight.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but the odds aren't in the victim's favor. Simple logic is that if the other guy with a gun sees the victim first then the victim, armed or not, is at a disadvantage. You're right, this isn't a staring contest, this is real stuff.

Good on that trained cop, brave move. Very risky, he very well could have been shot. I don't have a happy place, I'm just analytical about my view points. And I am always willing to have my position changed if sufficient evidence is brought to my attention.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

I like how when a scenario like what happened in a video happens everybody watching it has a "I would have" attitude. Not a chance in hell would you have a chance against someone already with gun in hand. The rider made the wise decision and handed over whatever they wanted and walked away with his life.


----------



## juan_speeder (May 11, 2008)

swingset said:


> You are reading a different thread than I am, sport...I've seen several posts noting carry methods that would have been ideal for situations just like that. I carry IWB (appendix) when I ride. I would have been off that bike and had that gun out the instant the first guy started running for me....and I'd suspect the biker in the video saw him well in time to know something was up....they were in the open, facing the bike, in broad daylight.
> 
> I have experienced the same thing, stopped at a light one time pedaling around town and a pitbull came over a fence and advanced on me, I dropped the bike, backed up and drew my pistol (luckily it stopped short of me and just barked) but I had time to respond....in fact, it's eerily similar to that video in distance & time.
> 
> ...


You're making things up and don't even own a gun.

Nobody in gun circles uses the term "pistol" like you just did. 100% would use "handgun".

Stop pretending on the internet. It's obvious.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

juan_speeder said:


> You're making things up and don't even own a gun.
> 
> Nobody in gun circles uses the term "pistol" like you just did. 100% would use "handgun".
> 
> Stop pretending on the internet. It's obvious.


I once shot a pistol many years ago.


----------



## alucke (Dec 9, 2006)

I don't conceal carry, I have my hand gun on my side, I have found that the sight of a gun deters crime. If they see u have a gun at the ready, they will think twice

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

I've killed people. I carry a gun (sometimes) when I ride. I would have given them my bike and walked away. The rider is this video exhibited the text book response.


----------



## musikron (Jan 16, 2013)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I like how when a scenario like what happened in a video happens everybody watching it has a "I would have" attitude. Not a chance in hell would you have a chance against someone already with gun in hand. The rider made the wise decision and handed over whatever they wanted and walked away with his life.


BS. Criminals are scared little punk ass *****es when it gets down to it. If they don't kill you right out, they don't have the balls to do it. Twice have I had a gun drawn on me in an attempted robbery. Twice I have stood my ground and became the aggressor. FYI I am tall but thin, so not particularly physically threatening.

1st time I broke my beer bottle and yelled for my friends after a little **** talking (they were half a block away just out of sight), then became the aggressor and chased the thugs away. They got scared when they saw I meant to do them serious bodily harm and took off at warp speed.

2nd time, two guys on a train platform tried to mug me with a gun. I screamed at them as loud as I could "F you Fing POS!, hit the gunman guy with my guitar case and kicked him off the train platform. The other guy took off running, at which point I did the same in the opposite direction. Shortly after this second incident I obtained my CCW.


----------



## Gordon Shumway (Sep 17, 2012)

Silentfoe said:


> I've killed people


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

The video is actually the perfect advertisement for the Nanny State. Camera got the perps caught and bike returned. Nobody died. The best of all possible outcomes in this scenario.

I wouldn't be using this video as an argument for individual rights.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I use a snowboarding camelback which is perfect with my fire extinguisher (compact). The camelback has an "upside down" pocket and zipper where the avalanche probe is meant to be carried and accessible quickly. I don't have to take it off, I just reach the zipper at the bottom left of my camelback and pull up and my fire extinguisher literally falls into my hand.


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Did you say compact??

Man I am so fast, just imagine if I had a FE-C!


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

I conceal carry in my a**hole. If someone approaches me with evil intent, I fart in their general direction. I have killed many in this manner...


----------



## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

I did not realize that there were so many cowardly mountain bikers that feel naked without a firearm.

I got a lifetime supply of weapon handling in the US Army, haven't felt the need to pull a trigger since February 15, 1968. I have been mountain biking since before the term was applied to the sport, I've ridden where the grizzly bear population exceeds the human, and I won't carry a weapon on my bike. Or any other time.

Whom are you people planning to shoot while riding singletrack? If you feel the need to carry a weapon, the military awaits your application.


----------



## Tystevens (Nov 2, 2011)

A few people on this thread have watched one too many cop shows and seem to fantasize a little too much about how good they'd be with their 'weapon' under dire circumstances! You know, how the bad guys have terrible aim and can't hit the broad side of a barn while emptying their magazine, while the good guy can hit three perps with 3 shots while doing a diving backflip holding a beautiful female witness in one arm. 

Give me a break, this isn't the movies .... The victim in the video demonstrated it is far better to give up a bike and a pack than lose your life over (relatively) valueless junk.


----------



## moefosho (Apr 30, 2013)

Ain't nobody taking my bike!


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

It baffles me that people can be so comfortable in laying down and giving up. And then, spew hate and insults at those who refuse to do so "legally". As much as we would like the world to be full of rainbows and gummy bears, we must realize that it is far from that. There will always be someone out there that intends on taking from or harming someone for their advantage. You can live your life carefree and gun free, that is perfectly fine with me. Just let others live their lives how they want without reprisial. Isn't that part of the "loving" mantra? 

AS for the scenario in the video? Most people would react just like the biker did. He was outnumbered, ambushed and (to me) I saw multiple guns. That's a no win situation out front, unless your a navy seal or something. Situational awareness is key. When he first saw the guy running, that was his only chance to do something to change the course of the situation. Fight or flight, he did neither. Just my .02 cents, which in todays economy isn't worth much.


----------



## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> I once shot a pistol many years ago.


_That _is a revolver.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

musikron said:


> BS. Criminals are scared little punk ass *****es when it gets down to it. If they don't kill you right out, they don't have the balls to do it. Twice have I had a gun drawn on me in an attempted robbery. Twice I have stood my ground and became the aggressor. FYI I am tall but thin, so not particularly physically threatening.
> 
> 1st time I broke my beer bottle and yelled for my friends after a little **** talking (they were half a block away just out of sight), then became the aggressor and chased the thugs away. They got scared when they saw I meant to do them serious bodily harm and took off at warp speed.
> 
> 2nd time, two guys on a train platform tried to mug me with a gun. I screamed at them as loud as I could "F you Fing POS!, hit the gunman guy with my guitar case and kicked him off the train platform. The other guy took off running, at which point I did the same in the opposite direction. Shortly after this second incident I obtained my CCW.


Hey you know the old saying "the third times a charm". It's only a matter of time before things turn in the direction of the scumbag.


----------



## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Enel said:


> _That _is a revolver.


Really!

It's all a matter of semantics. Both a revolver and a pistol are handguns. The destinction, according to some sources, is that a pistol has no revolving cylinder while a revolver does have the revolving cylinder. According to other sources, a handgun and a pistol are the same thing and a revolver is a special class of pistol.

Neither definition is solidly accepted by everyone.

Since an arguement can be made either way, your best resolution is to simply accept the fact that there are two different definitions and you have each taken a different one. You then agree to disagree and let it go. It isn't worth the effort to continue an endless unsolvable arguement.


----------



## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

DIRTJUNKIE said:


> It's all a matter of semantics. Both a revolver and a pistol are handguns.


Much more important is that if I've been pistol whipped, do I need to pay enough attention to be accurately able to report to the authorities whether I've been pistol whipped, or alternatively revolver whipped? Will the odds of catching the perp be adversely affected if I state generically that I've been handgun whipped? What if it's not being handgun whipped at all, and I get pu$$y whipped? Who do I report that to?


----------



## Gordon Shumway (Sep 17, 2012)

:lol:


Circlip said:


> Much more important is that if I've been pistol whipped, do I need to pay enough attention to be accurately able to report to the authorities whether I've been pistol whipped, or alternatively revolver whipped? Will the odds of catching the perp be adversely affected if I state generically that I've been handgun whipped? What if it's not being handgun whipped at all, and I get pu$$y whipped? Who do I report that to?


:lol::lol::lol: If it's the latter then you better report to your friends for a swift kick in the nuts!


----------



## PolishExperiment (May 14, 2011)

Circlip said:


> Much more important is that if I've been pistol whipped, do I need to pay enough attention to be accurately able to report to the authorities whether I've been pistol whipped, or alternatively revolver whipped? Will the odds of catching the perp be adversely affected if I state generically that I've been handgun whipped? What if it's not being handgun whipped at all, and I get pu$$y whipped? Who do I report that to?


Depends on who is doing the whipping and the level of inebriation of the whipee. In the case of a pu$$y whipping I think most important are the 'credentials' of the whipping party. Of course all of this is null and void if whip cream is involved.


----------



## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

PolishExperiment said:


> Depends on who is doing the whipping and the level of inebriation of the whipee. In the case of a pu$$y whipping I think most important are the 'credentials' of the whipping party. Of course all of this is null and void if whip cream is involved.


Do I have to choose only one? Can there be pu$$y whipping that somehow involves whipped cream? I understand that being pu$$y whipped is not normally looked upon favorably, but surely there must be some exceptions that make it... cough... palatable?


----------



## PolishExperiment (May 14, 2011)

Circlip said:


> Do I have to choose only one? Can there be pu$$y whipping that somehow involves whipped cream? I understand that being pu$$y whipped is not normally looked upon favorably, but surely there must be some exceptions that make it... cough... palatable?


Emily Batty...whipped cream...

Did I just whip up a palatable scenario?


----------



## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

PolishExperiment said:


> Emily Batty...whipped cream...


I've been at many races around Emily and other members of her family since before she was even in high school and she's as nice as you could ever expect of anyone. Sorry, that kind of puts a damper on the topic! This thread really does need more whipping cream, golf clubs, or just about anything else though. The feeling I get with the 500+ posts of this thread is about the same as walking down the stairs into a basement rec room at 4am and finding everyone passed out on the floor with only the sound of a needle skipping endlessly after final track on the B side of an album that never even had a worthwhile A side.


----------



## PolishExperiment (May 14, 2011)

Circlip said:


> I've been at many races around Emily and other members of her family since before she was even in high school and she's as nice as you could ever expect of anyone. Sorry, that kind of puts a damper on the topic! This thread really does need more whipping cream, golf clubs, or just about anything else though. The feeling I get with the 500+ posts of this thread is about the same as walking down the stairs into a basement rec room at 4am and finding everyone passed out on the floor with only the sound of a needle skipping endlessly after final track on the B side of an album that never even had a worthwhile A side.


Yep that dampens like an elastomer Girvin fork on a hot July day.

Not really sure how to segway into carrying concealed golf clubs, or where to conceal vintage audio equipment while mixing a bowl of cream at 4am.


----------



## Slow Danger (Oct 9, 2009)

Circlip said:


> Much more important is that if I've been pistol whipped, do I need to pay enough attention to be accurately able to report to the authorities whether I've been pistol whipped, or alternatively revolver whipped? Will the odds of catching the perp be adversely affected if I state generically that I've been handgun whipped? What if it's not being handgun whipped at all, and I get pu$$y whipped? Who do I report that to?


Just wear a GoPro and the cops will sort it out.


----------



## santa cruzer73 (Oct 22, 2013)

As a former repo agent I can say gun or not most people are just talk!!And to carry while riding is hilarious. Doing so just comes from fear of the worst possible outcome that has'nt even happend. LOL!!!!


----------



## sodak (Oct 10, 2006)

disregard...


----------



## rockerc (Nov 22, 2010)

sodak said:


> It baffles me that people can be so comfortable in laying down and giving up. And then, spew hate and insults at those who refuse to do so "legally". As much as we would like the world to be full of rainbows and gummy bears, we must realize that it is far from that. There will always be someone out there that intends on taking from or harming someone for their advantage. You can live your life carefree and gun free, that is perfectly fine with me. Just let others live their lives how they want without reprisial. Isn't that part of the "loving" mantra?
> 
> AS for the scenario in the video? Most people would react just like the biker did. He was outnumbered, ambushed and (to me) I saw multiple guns. That's a no win situation out front, unless your a navy seal or something. Situational awareness is key. When he first saw the guy running, that was his only chance to do something to change the course of the situation. Fight or flight, he did neither. Just my .02 cents, which in todays economy isn't worth much.


Sodak, I don't think your take on the situation is reasonable. I don't think anyone in any of the situations you allude to feels 'comfortable' laying down and giving up. It is just a sad reality in a world that is overpopulated by guns and desperate people. It just ain't worth the worst possible outcome for hanging onto a bike fercrissakes! Rather turn our attention to attempting to depopulate the world of these guns and desperate people. There are many ways to do this, and they do not involve making it easier for these people to get the guns. Rainbows and Gummy (sic) bears have nothing to do with this. ( To the purist, they will always be GUMMI bears)...


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

View attachment 899204


----------



## soflotrailer (Apr 9, 2014)

Guns don't kill people, I kill people...........


----------



## VTSession (Aug 18, 2005)

Gus69 said:


> Riding with a concealed weapon ?
> 
> That would give minimum 1 year in jail if I got stopped by the police.


Pretty sure this will wildly vary according to state.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

http://forums.mtbr.com/beginners-corner/concealed-carry-bike-options-990359.html

Good cross link for this topic


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

It is so refreshing to see that many people in this thread take responsibility for their own safety. Truth be told, I am a terrible rider with more courage than skill, and my outlook is that if I dont wreck on my outing then I didnt try hard enough. 

I dont carry my Sig .380, or my Sig 9mm, or my .45, or my... well nevermind all that. I have weighed my options and I think I'm wise to leave the pistol home while I'm on the trail. That said, I do carry a Benchmade everywhere I go, and I have the fight to live mentality. If some scumbag threatens my life on the trail or anywhere else, I WILL go home to my family or die trying.


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

Repack Rider said:


> I did not realize that there were so many cowardly mountain bikers that feel naked without a firearm.
> 
> I got a lifetime supply of weapon handling in the US Army, haven't felt the need to pull a trigger since February 15, 1968. I have been mountain biking since before the term was applied to the sport, I've ridden where the grizzly bear population exceeds the human, and I won't carry a weapon on my bike. Or any other time.
> 
> Whom are you people planning to shoot while riding singletrack? If you feel the need to carry a weapon, the military awaits your application.


Thats cool and all, but you are in the minority. Most veterans know the value of having a weapon and having the mindset to protect yourself. The reason we're in most of these hellholes overseas is because the citizens there are too chicken **** and disarmed to defend themselves. Thank you for your service by the way, whether I disagree with your opinion or not, you fought (with guns) to protect your right to say what you want.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Sorry, but that's just ignorance. 

Every home in Iraq, and most in Afghanistan have an AK. Kind of hard to overthrow the regime when they have significantly better weapons (nerve gas?), or they kill/abduct your family while you're at work. 

I've seen the aftermath of those that try to stand up against the Taliban, Haqqani, LeJ, Jundallah, etc. It's kind of hard to get up your nerve when your neighbor's family gets butchered for doing the same.


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

So what your'e saying is that they are indeed armed, and you are agreeing that they are too chicken **** to protect themselves like I just pointed out.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

They are deadly weapons, not political tools. People treat 220 power lines with more respect than guns. 

To start evoking gummy bears and rainbows because they don't subscribe to your politics though, over the internet.... That's the new definition of masculinity I guess. 

I think the fire-breathing gun types though ARE the problem. They and their invented fears and enemies. Paranoids though is all I see.

Seems every massacre and abuse of weapons is not from those who quietly respect the deadly power of guns and treat them accordingly, but those who brazenly promote them, see them as power symbols, flash them, discuss them, think they are social equalizers and who derive power from carrying them. They think they define manhood apparently too. 

Because you can buy manhood at Walmart with $149 and a coupon from the newspaper....

I was hunted for sport by one of those gun patriots when I was 11. Some pattriot in a pickup and a cowboy hat was shooting bottles in a rock quarry, practicing his All-'Merican aim skills, and decided to turn on a kid walking down alone on the mountain. Three bullets whizzed within inches of my ear, one lifted my hair up. I thought it was a bug, I never heard the gun go off so I stood there and looked around as bullets kept flying by my head.

A bullet has a distinct warbling sound that you feel, I thought it was a gigantic bumblebee until I heard a shot ricochet off rocks behind me, then I knew what it was, A ricochet sounds exactly like the cartoons, I instantly surmised what was going on, got down on my belly and crawled behind a rock. Several more shots rang overhead but I stayed put for 15 minutes after the last one, I watched the time. This was within city limits of Provo, Utah. Next to 'Y' mountain. 

That coward did it because he thought he could get away with it. What a hero.

But there is more. In 9th grade I and another friend were held at bay by a disturbed classmate toting his dads rifle. On the streets of Butte, Montana. He wanted us to dance around for him and would raise the gun and aim at us if we didn't do as he told us.

A cousin in my class was later shot dead over a noise complaint at his girlfriends Christmas party. Lonely off-duty cop downstairs didn't appreciate the noise, so he pushed the girl, got thrown out of the apartment, then came back upstairs with his service revolver and shot my cousin in cold blood. On the 9-1-1- tape you can hear him saying, "You aren't so tough now are you!" Coward tool.

One moment of anger is now that cops' whole life too, he is serving time in prison as a cop. The irreversible decision power of guns screwed him over just the same. Bet he wishes he had that moment of 'equal' back.

Also had a dad-shooter in my HS class, a school shooter that kilklewd a 9th grade girl, and a friend blew his hand off with his dads pistol.

And then I was hunted by a party of Bubba's in my own small town Montana, I drove off an icy road in zero degree weather before cellphones, walked two miles for help to the only farmhouse around and got no answer. Then got picked up by a cop trying to save my life from a hunting party of 6 gun-toting missionaries in a pickup trying to find the 'farmhouse intruder.' He saw my truck, put two and two together and went looking for me. Even after it was explained that I went off the road and just needed help, the head dude walked up with his rifle and said I was lucky the cop found me, he would have shot me on sight. The %$#& said that with pride.

All this Gummy Bear Rainbow gun $%& happened before I was 19 years old.

Ammo need to pipe down and start putting human beings back on top of their priority lists.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I love it when Americans that have never been shot at, never killed anyone, and never been truly oppressed make character judgements about people they've never met, living in conditions they can't understand, facing a kind of brutality no American has experienced in the last 200 years. 

Everyone is Johnny Badass in their own mind.


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> I love it when Americans that have never been shot at, never killed anyone, and never been truly oppressed make character judgements about people they've never met, living in conditions they can't understand, facing a kind of brutality no American has experienced in the last 200 years.
> 
> Everyone is Johnny Badass in their own mind.


Not no Johnny Badass here. Just a guy who brought two kids into this world, and would have no problem leaving this world in order to protect them. I assume you're in England... why are you worried about Americans with guns? You realize that even if a bad guy tried, our bullets cant make it all the way into your country and hurt you, right?


----------



## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Beach Ride said:


> T
> I was hunted for sport by one of those gun patriots when I was 11. Some pattriot in a pickup and a cowboy hat was shooting bottles in a rock quarry, practicing his All-'Merican aim skills,


Wow, the way you use the words "patriot" and "All-american" to describe one lunatic is pretty telling.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

j_wynn said:


> Not no Johnny Badass here. Just a guy who brought two kids into this world, and would have no problem leaving this world in order to protect them. I assume you're in England... why are you worried about Americans with guns? You realize that even if a bad guy tried, our bullets cant make it all the way into your country and hurt you, right?


Wait.

Are you being serious right now?

Look at my avatar.

Let me help you out:

The black and gold thing is a Ranger Tab. It's awarded to graduates of the United States Army Ranger School.

The white, blue and red thing is the unit patch of the 10th Mountain Division...of the United States Army. The Army division with more combat deployments in the Global War on Terror than any other conventional unit.

Now, if I served in the United States Army, and am a graduate of Ranger School, what do you think that means my nationality is, killer?


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

j_wynn said:


> Not no Johnny Badass here. Just a guy who brought two kids into this world, and would have no problem leaving this world in order to protect them. I assume you're in England... why are you worried about Americans with guns? You realize that even if a bad guy tried, our bullets cant make it all the way into your country and hurt you, right?


Take a look at Le Duke's avatar.


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Beach Ride said:


> They are deadly weapons, not political tools. People treat 220 power lines with more respect than guns.
> 
> To start evoking gummy bears and rainbows because they don't subscribe to your politics though, over the internet.... That's the new definition of masculinity I guess.
> 
> ...


And what does any of your life experiences have to do with a fellow Mtn biker wanting to protect himself against criminals looking to harm you or rob you for your 6,000 bike?


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Mookie said:


> Take a look at Le Duke's avatar.


Indeed. It's quite ironic that j_wynn thanks a veteran for his service (which many of us hate, by the way), yet doesn't know a god damn thing about it.

Seems like an appropriate time to post this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/22/sunday-review/please-dont-thank-me-for-my-service.html?_r=0


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Ducman said:


> Wow, the way you use the words "patriot" and "All-american" to describe one lunatic is pretty telling.


That is ALL you were able to take out of that?

I spent 11 years doing classified work for our nation's Patriot and tomahawk missile programs. We did those precision guidance systems you likely watched on your TV. Don't need to hear about my patriotism from pundit-fed political nuts who object at the labels they deserve.

If your 11 year old boy amounted to nothing more than someone's target, you'd probably have a different reaction.

But hey, the religion of politics comes before all.


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

Kind a sarcastic fella arent ya? Sorry I missed your big golden RANGER beacon that means you are the MAN!

For all I know, we may be on the same side of the issue at hand. All I know is we do agree on one thing- the people in the middle east are not willing to defend themselves although they, according to you, have the means. 

Fortunately America will never get to that point.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Beach Ride said:


> That is ALL you were able to take out of that?
> 
> I spent 11 years doing classified work for our nation's Patriot and tomahawk missile programs. We did those precision guidance systems you likely watched on your TV. Don't need to hear about my patriotism from pundit-fed political nuts who object at the labels they deserve.
> 
> ...


Word.

Patriotism is in actions, not words.

I am very leery of anyone that calls themselves a "patriot".


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Chicane32 said:


> And what does any of your life experiences have to do with a fellow Mtn biker wanting to protect himself against criminals looking to harm you or rob you for your 6,000 bike?


I've done just fine without a gun. Never felt scared or intimidated by life I guess.

I chased down an armed robber/attempted rapist with me bare hands. Chased him a mile knowing he was armed. He outweighed me by a good 20 lbs too, then my testimony led him to 'settle' for 17.5 years.

You ever done anything remotely that good for society with your power toys?

Also, killing someone for what amounts to a months work is no justice in any rational world. It is your own dark vengeance that is basically evil. I don't know what else to call that and I won't sugarcoat it for you. That is sick.


----------



## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Beach Ride said:


> That is ALL you were able to take out of that?
> 
> I spent 11 years doing classified work for our nation's Patriot and tomahawk missile programs. We did those precision guidance systems you likely watched on your TV. Don't need to hear about my patriotism from pundit-fed political nuts who object at the labels they deserve.
> 
> ...


You would probably get more sympathy from your stories if you didn't try to associate Patriot or all-american as derogatory terms


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

I live in this world too and feel plenty justified in commenting about people who would kill over their bicycle. What else would you kill for... I have to live with this attitude and I feel justified in questioning it.


----------



## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Beach Ride said:


> I live in this world too and feel plenty justified in commenting about people who would kill over their bicycle. What else would you kill for... I have to live with this attitude and I feel justified in questioning it.


what about people that would kill your bicycle? Should they be the only ones with the gun


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

If somebody is using a deadly weapon to steal your bicycle and you relinquish your bicycle, you did so because you were afraid that if you DIDN'T give up the bike you'd be killed or seriously injured. If you weren't afraid for your bike you'd have told the assailant to piss off and kept your bike. Its okay to admit to yourself that you just dont have it in you to protect yourself with deadly force. To be honest I dont know that, if the moment ever comes, I could. But I take comfort in having that option. I dont value the life of a criminal over my own.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

j_wynn said:


> Kind a sarcastic fella arent ya? Sorry I missed your big golden RANGER beacon that means you are the MAN!
> 
> For all I know, we may be on the same side of the issue at hand. All I know is we do agree on one thing- the people in the middle east are not willing to defend themselves although they, according to you, have the means.
> 
> Fortunately America will never get to that point.


Again. What worldly experience would lead you to believe that you'd carry the fight to the enemy after they slaughter your neighbors family?

This idea that you can just "fight" the Taliban (I use "Taliban" to describe the many organizations over there) is, again, just ignorant. Like regular citizens, those guys can just disappear into the crowd. Who are you going to shoot at when they drop their weapons, and, through lack of uniforms, just disappear into the teeming masses at the local market?

I mean, I'm pretty decent at it (I'd wager better than the average untrained Afghan goat/sheep herder), and yet, we'd lose sight of guys all the time. They'd drop their AK, RPG, or whatever they were carrying, drop their chest rack, walk into a building or family compound or around a corner, and we'd never be able to identify them. How would Afghan shepherds from a village 5 miles down the road be able to say, "Hey, you don't live here!" to a guy that just shot at them, that they'd never seen before?

And, I had live drone feeds, radios, and guys with nice scopes on high powered rifles giving me information. Yet, you envision it being an easy task for Johnny Afghan, illiterate farmer, with his dad's AK. Got it.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Ducman said:


> You would probably get more sympathy from your stories if you didn't try to associate Patriot or all-american as derogatory terms


I'm not seeking sympathy. I want to mock those I see as the problem.

Gun owners aren't the problem. The loud 'bubba's' who brandish and associate their weapons with America and manhood and everything sacred -- yet seem to not know the first thing about America or life -- are the problem. We can aspire to a better society than a Mad Max sequel. I grew up around this emotional gun attitude and know it well. And it's a fraud based in pure hyperbole.

I've done more for the country and faced more gun violence than most all of them and I resent when I see some gun bigot laying down BS like 'gummy bears' and rainbows.' Funny you only hear that in the internet.

It is PRECISELY that emotional attachment to weapons that is the root of problem. They are tools made of metal and their job is to kill. Anything more glorious than that is Hollywood drama and needs to be extinguished.


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> Again. What worldly experience would lead you to believe that you'd carry the fight to the enemy after they slaughter your neighbors family?
> 
> This idea that you can just "fight" the Taliban (I use "Taliban" to describe the many organizations over there) is, again, just ignorant. Like regular citizens, those guys can just disappear into the crowd. Who are you going to shoot at when they drop their weapons, and, through lack of uniforms, just disappear into the crowd?
> 
> I mean, I'm pretty decent at it (I'd wager better than the average untrained Afghan goat/sheep herder), and yet, we'd lose sight of guys all the time. They'd drop their AK, RPG, or whatever they were carrying, drop their chest rack, walk into a building or family compound or around a corner, and we'd never be able to identify them. How would Afghan shepherds from a village 5 miles down the road be able to say, "Hey, you don't live here!" to a guy that just shot at them, that they'd never seen before?


American soldiers are the best in the world, which is why America is such a safe place to live.

I couldnt imagine the uphill battle those people are facing. Its fortunate that we have the means to protect ourselves here, and because of that we dont have to worry about sinking into a third world country.

Its annoying when people say guns are the problem when the gun in and of itself is not anymore of a problem than a crescent wrench.


----------



## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

In a world where people will spend $500 on a handle bar to save a few grams of weight, you're going to add a hand gun and bullets? When by the time you get the thing out of your backpack, whoever you're afraid of has already knocked you off your bike when they jumped out from behind a tree and smacked you with a rock? If you're on your bike and they're on foot - and they're within a few feet of you - you have no chance. However if your 20 feet away, you can pedal away and they'll never catch you...no need to shoot them.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

j_wynn said:


> American soldiers are the best in the world, which is why America is such a safe place to live.
> 
> I couldnt imagine the uphill battle those people are facing. Its fortunate that we have the means to protect ourselves here, and because of that we dont have to worry about sinking into a third world country.
> 
> Its annoying when people say guns are the problem when the gun in and of itself is not anymore of a problem than a crescent wrench.


I got shot in the chest by a guy going squirrel hunting, a week and a half after my last trip overseas. I was walking up the driveway to my new house, which I'd never seen in the flesh, which lies adjacent to the Jefferson National Forest. Luckily, it was just bird shot, and far enough away that it didn't pierce anything.

Guns aren't the problem. Idiots with guns at the problem. And there are far too many of them.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Doublebase said:


> In a world where people will spend $500 on a handle bar to save a few grams of weight, you're going to add a hand gun and bullets? When by the time you get the thing out of your backpack, whoever you're afraid of has already knocked you off your bike when they jumped out from behind a tree and smacked you with a rock? If you're on your bike and they're on foot - and they're within a few feet of you - you have no chance. However if your 20 feet away, you can pedal away and they'll never catch you...no need to shoot them.


This.

Granted, many criminals (people in general) are buffoons. But, if someone really wanted to take your lunch money out on the trail, and wasn't a total idiot, your gun would be useless. For you, at least. The guy who took it might get some use out of it, though.


----------



## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Beach Ride said:


> It is PRECISELY that emotional attachment to weapons that is the root of problem. They are tools made of metal and their job is to kill. Anything more glorious than that is Hollywood drama and needs to be extinguished.


Their job is to kill?...mine must be on welfare then


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

Ducman said:


> Their job is to kill?...mine must be on welfare then


I lol'd.


----------



## Doublebase (Aug 29, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> This.
> 
> Granted, many criminals (people in general) are buffoons. But, if someone really wanted to take your lunch money out on the trail, and wasn't a total idiot, your gun would be useless. For you, at least. The guy who took it might get some use out of it, though.


I've ridden in some places where I've run into some questionable characters on the trail. As I was riding past them - they were on foot - I thought...I would have ZERO chance while on the bike. Zero. The only slight chance...and I mean slight...would be to drive my bike right into them. Otherwise, their hands are free, yours are not, their feet are on the ground, yours are on pedals. You're done. Especially if they have a bat, rock, stick, or anything they can swing at you. No chance.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

I caught a bike thief once. He stole it as I was eating breakfast on the other side of a plate glass window at a cheap San Jose State breakfast place. The guy just walked up, mounted it like he owned it and casually pedaled away like no problem. It was my GF's bike so I couldn't let him have it, not that I would have anyway.

I raced out the door and ran back past the windows of the restaurant as everyone looked on, then they see me turn a corner past the restaurant and 15 seconds later come back with my bike over my shoulder. People in the restaurant called me a hero. But I felt like an ass.

When I caught the guy I headlocked him from behind and suddenly realized 'Crap, he is bigger than me and now I have to fight him.' But he took care of it all for me. He turned up a lawn and I thought he would brake, maybe he couldn't find them. But he drove straight into the brick wall of the Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity house on campus. I saw his head pound into the brick wall. Ugh. Then he fell on his back and was out COLD.

I ran back with the bike and called 9-1-1 on the payphone. People in the restaurant went out to see him. He woke up about 15 minutes later, incoherently staggering around and challenging people to fight. Then took off walking.

It took the police and ambulance about 30 minutes to arrive. the first ambulance came and the ambulance driver asked if I was the 'bike thief guy' and I said I guess. He got all giddy and excited, whooped and congratulated me. Apparently it was quite the story on the police radio.

The cops found the guy staggering around a few blocks away, he was a mess. They took my account of things and tried to rewrite it with a wink and a nudge -- as though I had kicked the guys ass and made the brick wall story up. But the brick wall story was what happened, he steered us both into it. I was sad and then horrified about what happened as he lay there motionless on the ground over a 1980's $75 MTB.

The cop asked if I wanted to press charges but subtly encouraged me to let him go on the idea that he already took quite a punishment and pounding for that bike, I agreed and would have suggested the same thing.

My dad and Navy Seal brother heard the story over dinner and got all excited, they wanted every detail and I shut them down. My dad said sorry but that is a lot of people's fantasy come true.

I just found it a sick fantasy when it actually did and not one I ever wanted.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

j_wynn said:


> Its okay to admit to yourself that you just dont have it in you to protect yourself with deadly force. To be honest I dont know that, if the moment ever comes, I could.


I'd rather give up my bike than kill the person trying to take it.

How does that fit into your equation, chief?


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> I'd rather give up my bike than kill the person trying to take it.
> 
> How does that fit into your equation, chief?


Honestly it fits into my "equation" by showing that you're a coward. You are a coward if youre willing to give a guy threatening to kill you your stuff, then hope he doesnt kill you. You are a coward by not trying to protect your life with any means possible. You are a coward by shoving your head into the sand and pretending that these assailants won't kill you at a moment's notice.

I had an aquaintance on another board that was carjacked at gunpoint. He did as you say- gave up his car so that he would be spared. It's only a car, right?

He was shot in cold blood, and his girlfriend, who was a young mother, was also murdered in cold blood. They shot the young couple who did everything "right" in the eyes of many anti gunners. They shot them because, when the assailants got into the car, they realized it was a stick, and they couldnt drive a stick so they shot the "witnesses".

I think thiefs, especially those that use a weapon, are the lowest of the low and I have no shame in admitting that not only am I better than them, but I certainly deserve to live more than they do.

It's a bitter world we live in, and the fact of the matter is that you have to be prepared to defend yourself from lowlifes who will kill you for something as petty as a bike.

To get back in topic, if I chose to carry a pistol on my bike, I'd probably use a hose clamp to secure a retention holster to the frame where it is easy to access and is secure in the event of a wreck.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Ducman said:


> Their job is to kill?...mine must be on welfare then


Yes, a guns job is to kill.

Semantics is Comedy like Black Eyed Peas is Music.

I wouldn't begrudge someone their choices in life though, be them semantic comedy or Black Eyed Peas, as long as their choice is not to fire long range projectiles at me.

I hope we at least have that much in common.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

j_wynn said:


> Honestly it fits into my "equation" by showing that you're a coward. You are a coward if youre willing to give a guy threatening to kill you your stuff, then hope he doesnt kill you. You are a coward by not trying to protect your life with any means possible. You are a coward by shoving your head into the sand and pretending that these assailants won't kill you at a moment's notice.


I am sensing a theme here. You are a man for killing someone over a piece of property? ANds call someone a 'coward' for having a different idea?

We just have different values I guess. I have mine and you have none.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

j_wynn said:


> Honestly it fits into my "equation" by showing that you're a coward. You are a coward if youre willing to give a guy threatening to kill you your stuff, then hope he doesnt kill you. You are a coward by not trying to protect your life with any means possible. You are a coward by shoving your head into the sand and pretending that these assailants won't kill you at a moment's notice.


I'm a coward?

Really?

Get back to me when you go on your first dismounted patrol in RC-East, you sniveling little ****.

Get back to me when you pull a piece of RPG out of your arm while directing fire and aviation assets in a fight for your life.

You're the person who JUST SAID that he doesn't know if he could pull the trigger. Guess what? I know that I can. Want to know how I know?


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> I'm a coward?
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...


That word is perhaps the biggest irony of all-time when deployed over the internet.


----------



## Guest (Oct 8, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> I'd rather give up my bike than kill the person trying to take it.
> 
> How does that fit into your equation, chief?


 In most (if not all) jurisdictions, you cannot use lethal force to protect property loss. In castle-law states, you may defend real-estate, in non-castle law states you generally don't have a duty to retreat from your home, in all states if your life is at risk (due to a firearm or other threat factor) you can use lethal force. So, if a guy wants your bike, you're legally not protected unless giving up that bike would reasonably be expected to be live threatening. Also, most shootings involve both criminal and civil court proceedings. The last few I followed resulted in $20K+ legal bills. So I'm right there with you, want my bike? I'm not fighting you for it. Doesn't make economic sense. To the j_wynn post that follows, coward for not killing a guy over a bike? I didn't see where he was threatening your life in your scenario and I don't see grounds for an affirmative defense for homicide either.


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

Beach Ride said:


> I am sensing a theme here. You are a man for killing someone over a piece of property? ANds call someone a 'coward' for having a different idea?
> 
> We just have different values I guess. I have mine and you have none.


Jesus sacrificed himself so that sinners could live. I am not nearly the man that Jesus was, and I will not lay down my arms and die so some criminal can live to rob/ maim/ kill/ rape somebody else.

I am clearly a man of no morals. I have no obligation to my family to make it home every day. I have no obligation to my family to make sure they have a safe place to sleep. I have no obligation to put a roof over my kid's head and food on their plate (all of which would be impossible if I were laying on a trail in the middle of nowhere dead).

You take the high road and be condescending to others. I wish I could have your morals.


----------



## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Beach Ride said:


> I am sensing a theme here. You are a man for killing someone over a piece of property? ANds call someone a 'coward' for having a different idea?
> 
> We just have different values I guess. I have mine and you have none.


He's not killing someone over a bike, he is killing some one that is threatening to kill him over a bike. Big difference, they guy trying to steal your bike on the trail isn't saying give me your bike or I'll call you a bad word. If there is the threat of death or grave bodily harm, then a gun is appropriate. If the baddie, pushes you off your bike and then rides away, then it is not.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> I'd rather give up my bike than kill the person trying to take it.
> 
> How does that fit into your equation, chief?


It's sad that you even have to make this declaration to people.

The ideals of decency have shifted so far to haywire that I can't remember what it was like to live in a normal world that doesn't try to imitate a Mad Max sequel.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

j_wynn said:


> Jesus sacrificed himself so that sinners could live. I am not nearly the man that Jesus was, and I will not lay down my arms and die so some criminal can live to rob/ maim/ kill/ rape somebody else.
> 
> I am clearly a man of no morals. I have no obligation to my family to make it home every day. I have no obligation to my family to make sure they have a safe place to sleep. I have no obligation to put a roof over my kid's head and food on their plate (all of which would be impossible if I were laying on a trail in the middle of nowhere dead).
> 
> You take the high road and be condescending to others. I wish I could have your morals.


I'm thinking that Jesus wouldn't want you killing people for a $##%#& bicycle.

Has the bible had a revision I didn't know about?


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

Forster said:


> In most (if not all) jurisdictions, you cannot use lethal force to protect property loss. In castle-law states, you may defend real-estate, in non-castle law states you generally don't have a duty to retreat from your home, in all states if your life is at risk (due to a firearm or other threat factor) you can use lethal force. So, if a guy wants your bike, you're legally not protected unless giving up that bike would reasonably be expected to be live threatening. Also, most shootings involve both criminal and civil court proceedings. The last few I followed resulted in $20K+ legal bills. So I'm right there with you, want my bike? I'm not fighting you for it. Doesn't make economic sense. To the j_wynn post that follows, coward for not killing a guy over a bike? I didn't see where he was threatening your life in your scenario and I don't see grounds for an affirmative defense for homicide either.


The answer lies in the scenario. If an unarmed person were to say "hey j_wynn, give me your bike", i would laugh and ride away. If a person had the means to maim or kill me (blunt object, blade, gun, chain, ect) and said "hey j_wynn give me your bike or ill _____ you", id ride away if i had a chance. Or id stand and fight if I didnt have the chance to ride away. The last thing I'd do is give my property without a fight. You CANNOT use lethal means of self defense in order to defend your property, but if a person is using a lethal object to "persuade" you to give up said property, then it is perfectly reasonable to assume that they mean you grave bodily harm and you can defend yourself accordingly. It is all about intent AND ability to harm you. BOTH must be present in order to justify lethal defense.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Ducman said:


> He's not killing someone over a bike, he is killing some one that is threatening to kill him over a bike. Big difference, they guy trying to steal your bike on the trail isn't saying give me your bike or I'll call you a bad word. If there is the threat of death or grave bodily harm, then a gun is appropriate. If the baddie, pushes you off your bike and then rides away, then it is not.


In your mind, how does this scenario actually happen?

Bad guy in a red bandada over his face rushes from the bushes and says, 'Hands up!'

And then you pull out a big gun and say, 'Go ahead, make my day?'

How many people here have had this problem and aren't just having some kind of sad, selfish vengeance fantasy that I know all-too-much about?


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

Were clearly not going to make a light bulb go off in your head and make you say "my god their right". This is a mountainbike forum and I hope you realize that my end of the conversation is just fun banter. I dont expect to change anybody's mind on the topic and nobody will change mine. And that's perfectly okay. Maybe I'm the weirdo, maybe your'e the weirdo, but were both a couple of weirdos that would probably have a blast biking together. And drinking beer after. Anyway I'm checking out of this thread for the night you guys have a wonderful time lol.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Best I can tell, I am the only person that has actually confronted a bike thief here. It's an exercise in hyperbole by those who fantasize about the chance to hurt someone. 

It's twisted.


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

The problem I see with some of the posts in this thread is that some of you are treating the guys that want to protect themselves and go home to see there family at the end of the day, as the criminals. 

Beach Ride, Chasing down armed criminals with a butter knife is pretty dumb if you ask me and anyone else with common sense. If you keep up the "this is what I did for the world attitude",then your family will be burying you sooner,then later.

I happen to be tired of seeing career criminals have more rights then the law abiding citizens and the ignorant public backing them. Career criminals who don't value life need to be shot and put out of their misery or they will go on and on ruining people's lives. I think that's great for all the people with CCW in America. Just another undercover Cop there to help you if needed. I live in Commifirnia and I will never get the chance to protect my life or someone else's if the situation arises.

Just to be clear. I'm not saying that you should shoot an unarmed person ,but if you feel threatened and they have a weopon, then you have the right to defend yourself.


----------



## Cornbread1 (Jun 17, 2015)

Beach Ride said:


> I'm thinking that Jesus wouldn't want you killing people for a $##%#& bicycle.
> 
> Has the bible had a revision I didn't know about?


Indeed, assuming jesus isn't pure fiction like the bible.


----------



## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Beach Ride said:


> In your mind, how does this scenario actually happen?
> 
> Bad guy in a red bandada over his face rushes from the bushes and says, 'Hands up!'
> 
> ...


I don't know how the situation will go, maybe I'll be able to use the bike as a weapon to gain me space and time to either leave or counter. Maybe I'll rely on the years of self defense I have taken.

Here are two thinks I won't do, lay on the ground feeling morally superior that I did nothing to save myself and I won't tell other people that I know the best way for them to defend themselves


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Chicane32 said:


> The problem I see with some of the posts in this thread is that some of you are treating the guys that want to protect themselves and go home to see there family at the end of the day, as the criminals.
> 
> Beach Ride, Chasing down armed criminals with a butter knife is pretty dumb if you ask me and anyone else with common sense. If you keep up the "this is what I did for the world attitude",then your family will be burying you sooner,then later.
> 
> I happen to be tired of seeing career criminals have more rights then the law abiding citizens and the ignorant public backing them. Career criminals who don't value life need to be shot and put out of their misery or they will go on and on ruining people's lives. I think that's great for all the people with CCW in America. Just another undercover Cop there to help you if needed. I live in Commifirnia and I will never get the chance to protect my life or someone else's if the situation arises.


Contrary to what you may believe, police are responsible for arresting suspects, who are then tried by a jury of their peers, and sentenced if found guilty.

Cops, and the public, are not the judge, jury and hangman.

Also, a gun is not the only "chance" you have to protect your life.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Le Duke said:


> Sorry, but that's just ignorance.
> 
> Every home in Iraq, and most in Afghanistan have an AK. Kind of hard to overthrow the regime when they have significantly better weapons (nerve gas?), or they kill/abduct your family while you're at work.
> 
> I've seen the aftermath of those that try to stand up against the Taliban, Haqqani, LeJ, Jundallah, etc. It's kind of hard to get up your nerve when your neighbor's family gets butchered for doing the same.


If more guns makes us safer, that must be the safest place in the world!

But I get it, I live in Alaska, that said, there are very few times when I need to be armed, most of those have to do with being inserted deep in the wilderness with no easy way out and the possibility of getting cornered (as in no opposite direction trail). That doesn't exist for the most part on our ridden trails, so all I need is bear spray.

The thing that is always funny about these is how people rationalize bringing guns when there are far more important things you could bring with you for survival or when "**** hits the fan". They claim they "want to be prepared", but that makes no sense when you compare with the most likely scenarios and what you would most likely need out in the wilderness. A gun is pretty far down the list of useful things that take up space, especially if it's a gun that's appropriate for taking down game, which handguns are generally poor at, unless they are heavy caliber types.

So personally, I carry my fire extinguisher, so I can be prepared.


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> Contrary to what you may believe, police are responsible for arresting suspects, who are then tried by a jury of their peers, and sentenced if found guilty.
> 
> Cops, and the public, are not the judge, jury and hangman.
> 
> Also, a gun is not the only "chance" you have to protect your life.


I know, I'm not 12. I happen to believe in an eye for and eye and our backwards justice system is pathetic. It's pretty clear why criminals put no value on the human life and why the world gets worse by the day. It's not do to MTN bikers wanting to protect themselves. And when a criminal is inside your home, there is only one way to protect your life.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Chicane32 said:


> The problem I see with some of the posts in this thread is that some of you are treating the guys that want to protect themselves and go home to see there family at the end of the day, as the criminals.
> 
> Beach Ride, Chasing down armed criminals with a butter knife is pretty dumb if you ask me and anyone else with common sense. If you keep up the "this is what I did for the world attitude",then your family will be burying you sooner,then later.
> 
> I happen to be tired of seeing career criminals have more rights then the law abiding citizens and the ignorant public backing them. Career criminals who don't value life need to be shot and put out of their misery or they will go on and on ruining people's lives. I think that's great for all the people with CCW in America. Just another undercover Cop there to help you if needed. I live in Commifirnia and I will never get the chance to protect my life or someone else's if the situation arises.


Commifornia? I see the problem. Too much talk radio.

When exactly does a criminal have more 'rights' than law abiding citizens? Ridiculous and pure nonsense. The self-martyring and grandiose imagery that the fringe of gun activists portray would be comedy if it didn't lead to so much violence.

It's not the guns as much as it is the hotheaded, divisive, paranoid rhetoric that comes from angry gun advocates. The world isn't coming to get you, lighten up Francis.

Unbeknownst to you, YOU are the only deadly threat that most people would ever face in their lives. I've been behind the barrell of too many kooks to think anything else.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Chicane32 said:


> It's pretty clear why criminals put no value on the human life.


Really? You got it figured out? Do tell!


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Jayem said:


> Really? You got it figured out? Do tell!


Well you know. The criminal who steals a loaf of bread for his kids is just as evil as a guy fueled with right-wing rhetoric who sprays a college with bullets. They all need to be shot.

You know it occurs to me that they would have been off the island in a week if someone just had the balls to shoot Gilligan.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Beach Ride said:


> Well you know. The criminal who steals a loaf of bread for his kids is just as evil as a guy fueled with right-wing rhetoric who sprays a college with bullets. They all need to be shot.
> 
> You know it occurs to me that they would have been off the island in a week if someone just had the balls to shoot Gilligan.


The one I'm really trying to figure out is where the people "snap" that had no prior criminal history. Solve that one and you'll probably make millions.


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Beach Ride said:


> Commifornia? I see the problem. Too much talk radio.
> 
> When exactly does a criminal have more 'rights' than law abiding citizens? Ridiculous and pure nonsense. The self-martyring and grandiose imagery that the fringe of gun activists portray would be comedy if it didn't lead to so much violence.
> 
> ...


When you shoot a criminal inside your own home and have to spend thousands to prove your own innocence. Have you been blind to what the Police have been dealing with of late. Have you not noticed half of ignorant America protesting in favor of criminals? I guess not.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Chicane32 said:


> When you shoot a criminal inside your own home and have to spend thousands to prove your own innocence. Have you been blind to what the Police have been dealing with of late. Have you not noticed half of ignorant America protesting in favor of criminals? I guess not.


You mean like this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Pistorius

Or maybe like this?

Home Depot shoplifter shooting - careless gun use or vigilante justice? - Story | WJBK

What the police have been dealing with as of late? You mean the all-time-low in officer deaths? Maybe the media attention has you distracted from the facts? Or the fact that they're being recorded now and actually being held accountable (those of them that decided to disregard the law they swore to uphold)?


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Jayem said:


> The one I'm really trying to figure out is where the people "snap" that had no prior criminal history. Solve that one and you'll probably make millions.


In most of those cases it is a guy trying to 'right a horrible wrong.' In their mind.

The school shooter I mentioned? Back story. Two weeks before he killed the girl, he walked up to my girlfriends little brother, sitting on the floor at a friends house playing Nintendo, and just beat mercilessly on him to the point of 3 days in a hospital. No reason, never had any previous issue, he just did it.

These guys are nuts with serious anger issues.

Two weeks later he shot and killed the random girl, he was just going nuts after school with a gun shooting at everyone and she was hiding under a car. Bullet skipped. This stuff gets swept under the rug in Montana.

The gun was easy to get, it was laying out at home. Dad's of course, complete with free ammo. Emotionally-attached gun owners tend to leave them out.

I knew a few other kids he attacked, one had a face pitted with small hole scabs and I asked what happened. He said the guy picked him up by the feet and dragged him across a gravel road. No reason to fight, he was just that angry and started one.

He wasn't big or even strong. He just didn't care. Something in his life made him so angry that he probably still wishes he hit more people. Otherwise he acted and looked normal, he just had these weirdly violent fights before the shooting.

The anger was deep and crystal pure. Not the angry face anger, that is temporary. He was angry when he smiled and you felt it. It was the kind of visceral smile that people have at a dog fight.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Chicane32 said:


> When you shoot a criminal inside your own home and have to spend thousands to prove your own innocence. Have you been blind to what the Police have been dealing with of late. Have you not noticed half of ignorant America protesting in favor of criminals? I guess not.


Oh, like the fella in my Montana hometown who baited, then laid in wait and shot two German exchange students? The dude was known to keep weed in his garage so he intentionally left the door open one night, stayed up and blasted away someone inevitably walked in ...

That kind of hero?

Exactly how often does someone actually deter a real criminal in their home with a gun? And then how often is a family member shot accidentally or otherwise?


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Jayem said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Pistorius
> 
> ...


Exactly. Their argument is based on an obscenely violent world that only exists in their imaginations. And you will never tell them otherwise, they really believe they are under siege from 'bad people.' And they being 'good people' are the only life of defense.

I think these are the kids that grew up watching Gunsmoke instead of Star Trek. The great divide of our generation.

I would pity them for being so gullible if they weren't such a threat.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Wow, beware of extremists with an axe to grind.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> Wow, beware of extremists with an axe to grind.


Yeah, I've dodged a few of their bullets. And debated even more. To them everyone else is the 'extremist.' The whole world is wrong, only they understand.

Having the bullets of a whack job fly by your head tends to clarify things pretty quickly for you. Hopefully you never have to know.


----------



## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Beach Ride said:


> Yeah, I've dodged a few of their bullets. And debated even more. To them everyone else is the 'extremist.' The whole world.


 They come in all flavors, and usually with a sense of superiority and contempt for anyone that has an opinion that differs from their own.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

tiretracks said:


> They come in all flavors, and usually with a sense of superiority and contempt for anyone that has an opinion that differs from their own.


Yes once again...

Having the bullets of a whack job fly by your head tends to clarify things pretty quickly for you. Hopefully you never have to know.

It ceases to be an opinion and becomes reality when your life is in the hands of a nut with a gun.


----------



## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

j_wynn said:


> Kind a sarcastic fella arent ya? Sorry I missed your big golden RANGER beacon that means you are the MAN!
> 
> For all I know, we may be on the same side of the issue at hand. All I know is we do agree on one thing- the people in the middle east are not willing to defend themselves although they, according to you, have the means.
> 
> Fortunately America will never get to that point.


I don't know, buddy. Rangers are pretty bad-ass. Their training is top notch and I'd listen to what the guy has to say.


----------



## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

j_wynn said:


> Honestly it fits into my "equation" by showing that you're a coward. You are a coward if youre willing to give a guy threatening to kill you your stuff, then hope he doesnt kill you. You are a coward by not trying to protect your life with any means possible. You are a coward by shoving your head into the sand and pretending that these assailants won't kill you at a moment's notice.
> 
> I had an aquaintance on another board that was carjacked at gunpoint. He did as you say- gave up his car so that he would be spared. It's only a car, right?
> 
> ...


Linky to news report on this please. I call bs.


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Jayem said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Pistorius
> 
> ...


You are grasping at straws when comparing logical gun owners to that idiot in Home Depot. Ya that's all gun owners isn't it? Your right, all Cops are corrupt aren't they and they deserve to be shot for no reason, right? Another person in favor of the criminal. The fact that they are now being recorded will show that 99% of their shootings are justified. Like that piece of **** Michael Brown. Since you are the expert who knows all the facts. If that Brown thug was still alive, how many other innocent people would he have assaulted by now? Like that Liquor store owner that he man handled, when he acted above the law.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Chicane32 said:


> You are grasping at straws when comparing logical gun owners to that idiot in Home Depot. Ya that's all gun owners isn't it? Your right, all Cops are corrupt aren't they and they deserve to be shot for no reason, right? Another person in favor of the criminal. The fact that they are now being recorded will show that 99% of their shootings are justified. Like that piece of **** Michael Brown. Since you are the expert who knows all the facts. If that Brown thug was still alive, how many other innocent people would he have assaulted by now? Like that Liquor store owner that he man handled, when he acted above the law.


That is statistically what you are likely to do with your gun, so yes.

Guns (purchased legally) are far more likely to be used in suicide, domestic violence, and unlawful killing than they are for personal defense. It might make you feel like "more of a man" to have a gun, possibly due to seeing Die Hard 1-3 (not 4 and 5). I'm not grasping at straws by showing you how a legal gun purchase by an "upstanding law abiding citizen" is likely to be used. That's just what the data shows.

I will give you $100 if you can show me where I said that all cops are corrupt. It sounds like you might have some anger issues by the way you are claiming I said things that were never written. Are you sure you are mentally stable enough to own a firearm?


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

U


Jayem said:


> That is statistically what you are likely to do with your gun, so yes.
> 
> Guns (purchased legally) are far more likely to be used in suicide, domestic violence, and unlawful killing than they are for personal defense. It might make you feel like "more of a man" to have a gun, possibly due to seeing Die Hard 1-3 (not 4 and 5). I'm not grasping at straws by showing you how a legal gun purchase by an "upstanding law abiding citizen" is likely to be used. That's just what the data shows.
> 
> I will give you $100 if you can show me where I said that all cops are corrupt. It sounds like you might have some anger issues by the way you are claiming I said things that were never written. Are you sure you are mentally stable enough to own a firearm?


Ya, you said that some disregard the law. I overlooked and didn't re read your comment. Statistics have nothing to do with my common sense and what I may or may not do. As far as a gun making me feel like a man...that was the furthest thought, that ever crossed my mind. But I'm guessing that statistics show that you are right.


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Beach Ride said:


> Oh, like the fella in my Montana hometown who baited, then laid in wait and shot two German exchange students? The dude was known to keep weed in his garage so he intentionally left the door open one night, stayed up and blasted away someone inevitably walked in ...
> 
> That kind of hero?
> 
> Exactly how often does someone actually deter a real criminal in their home with a gun? And then how often is a family member shot accidentally or otherwise?


It just happened yesterday and it happens on a weekly basis where I live in the US. Not sure what bubble you live in?
Texas Burglar Kicks in Door of Apartment, Gets Shot by Deputy Who Lives Inside


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Chicane32 said:


> U
> Ya, you said that some disregard the law. I overlooked and didn't re read your comment.


Please make sure to correctly asses the situation when you are holding your gun.


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Jayem said:


> Please make sure to correctly asses the situation when you are holding your gun.


Please make sure you plug your nose when you are licking Obummers butt hole.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Chicane32 said:


> Statistics have nothing to do with my common sense and what I may or may not do. As far as a gun making me feel like a man...that was the furthest thought, that ever crossed my mind. But I'm guessing that statistics show that you are right.


No, I added that last part.

But statistics do say what you are likely to do with your gun, otherwise, they wouldn't be statistics. Just like statistics show certain segments of the population are more likely to be involved in violence, or certain geographical areas. This isn't rocket surgery. Statistics also tell us what we should be prepared for when in the backcountry, which helps us overcome what we "feel", because those feelings are often wrong, no matter how right they feel to us. In my area, car accidents are more common and drive up insurance rates. That doesn't mean I'm immune because I'm such an awesome driver, it means I have to take additional measures and the insurance company recognizes this with increased premiums.

I'm not against guns and own a few, but I find most rationalizations for carry on a mountain bike/while mountain biking to be absolutely ridiculous. If you were really that concerned about your personal safety, you'd have a first aid kit, extra food and water, a space blanket, fire starter, filter, etc. If you are in awe of the Die Hard movies on the other hand...well ok, I expect to find a 9mm or .40 most likely...ridiculous for use against animals, and just as ridiculous to keep concealed, but well rationalized no doubt.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Double post


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Ya, where I live my guns only leave my house when I'm headed to the shooting range.


----------



## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Guns (purchased legally) are far more likely to be used in suicide, domestic violence, and unlawful killing than they are for personal defense. It might make you feel like "more of a man" to have a gun, possibly due to seeing Die Hard 1-3 (not 4 and 5). I'm not grasping at straws by showing you how a legal gun purchase by an "upstanding law abiding citizen" is likely to be used. That's just what the data shows.


That statistic comes from the "Protection or Peril" study in the NEMJ. It is a seriously flawed study because it only accounts for the incidents where the home intruder was fatally wounded. The incidents where the bad guy was wounded and survived, held at gunpoint until the police arrived, or ran away were not included.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Chicane32 said:


> Please make sure you plug your nose when you are licking Obummers butt hole.


This quote sums up this entire argument.

Because some of us don't believe it's wise to conceal carry on the bike, we must be liberals and homosexuals.


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

Mookie said:


> Linky to news report on this please. I call bs.


Evidently i cant post a link. Google "Julian Soler carjacking". It happened in Miami. The perp stated he shot them "because they didnt look scared enough".


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Le Duke said:


> This quote sums up this entire argument.
> 
> Because some of us don't believe it's wise to conceal carry on the bike, we must be liberals and homosexuals.


Don't forget COMMIES!


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Ducman said:


> That statistic comes from the "Protection or Peril" study in the NEMJ. It is a seriously flawed study because it only accounts for the incidents where the home intruder was fatally wounded. The incidents where the bad guy was wounded and survived, held at gunpoint until the police arrived, or ran away were not included.


Here is a University of Pennsylvania study that shows gun owners are 4.5x more likely to be shot in an assault than those without a gun.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090930121512.htm

There are many more, I doubt you care though. I understand that guns are an emotional attachment, not a logical one and all the logic in the world won't convince you that there might be a problem.

It's like telling your teenage daughter that she can't date a certain dirtbag. She'll just run away with her hands over her ears and hate you.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Guns aren't the real problem, nor are most gun owners a threat to anyone.

The fringe activists who are at war for the 2nd amendment though and think the world is a liberal conspiracy against them, they all the biggest threats within our borders as I see it. By far.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/6T...s_asset/file/3985396/gun ownership states.png

Interesting chart. Gun ownership versus gun deaths per state. The fewer guns, the fewer deaths. Less guns lead to fewer killings, that is common sense in most places. Here though I need a chart.


----------



## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Beach Ride said:


> Here is a University of Pennsylvania study that shows gun owners are 4.5x more likely to be shot in an assault than those without a gun.
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090930121512.htm
> 
> ...


You should ready the study, look into the the control group and how the determined that 4.5 number, you probably would not be posting it as support of your case if you did.

Basically the study called a control group asked if they owned a gun during the time of another shooting, not if they were involved, assaulted or even outside of their home at around the time a crime that happened somewhere else to someone else. An shockingly the found it was safer to sit in your house than to be on the streets of Philly


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Y


Beach Ride said:


> https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/6T...s_asset/file/3985396/gun ownership states.png
> 
> Interesting chart. Gun ownership versus gun deaths per state. The fewer guns, the fewer deaths. Less guns lead to fewer killings, that is common sense in most places. Here though I need a chart.


How do they calculate gun ownership in states where you don't have to register your guns. They really have no idea how many guns are in the US, do they? Of these stats, how many are in the hood and related to drugs and gangs? These deaths/ numbers have zero to do with your responsible gun owner. How many illegal ghost guns with there serial number scratched off are used in gun related killings, who knows? None of these gun related deaths are accurate and count towards the responsible gun owner.
When you see a number in Chicago, like 200 gun related deaths over the holiday weekend. I'm guessing that 190 of the deaths are related to illegal unregistered guns. Why bring up statistics when they don't really speak the entire truth about your average gun owner?


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

You guys insult all of our smarts when you pretend to question what is plain to see. The pattern is obvious.

?No Way To Prevent This,? Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens - The Onion - America's Finest News Source


----------



## j_wynn (Sep 11, 2015)

Did you seriously just post an article from the satire website "the onion" as fact?


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

j_wynn said:


> Did you seriously just post an article from the satire website "the onion" as fact?


I'm fairly certain he's posting it to make a point.

About how it seems we're the only developed country where this happens regularly.


----------



## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

j_wynn said:


> Did you seriously just post an article from the satire website "the onion" as fact?


The onion probably has more credibility than other links he posted. At least they are trying to be funny when making facts up


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Beach Ride said:


> You guys insult all of our smarts when you pretend to question what is plain to see. The pattern is obvious.
> 
> ?No Way To Prevent This,? Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens - The Onion - America's Finest News Source


What is plain to see? That about 90% of all gun related homicides are directly related to drugs and territory. Is this the story where 3 people were killed with a knife? I guess they must have missed that.


----------



## jmmUT (Sep 15, 2008)

Chicane32 said:


> What is plain to see? That about 90% of all gun related homicides are directly related to drugs and territory. Is this the story where 3 people were killed with a knife? I guess they must have missed that.


87% of stats are made up on the spot. Problem is yours are wrong. Most gun related homicides are actually suicides, then homicide by other people, but most of those are actually domestic violence and heat of the moment arguments. Not vague criminal element types.

Here are real stats: FIREARMS TUTORIAL

Now we need better numbers, but there is a congressional ban on federal agencies and money looking into details about gun deaths. This happened when the CDC in the 90's found that having a gun in your house made you far more likely to be killed than not having one. Why? Because intruder shoot outs are rare but suicides, arguments, and accidents are common.

So the NRA got pissed off and lobbied for a retaliatory gag order on that research because, as Stephen Colbert put it "Reality has a well known liberal bias". So it's not your fault that you have bad stats, it's big governments fault.

Here's the background on that. Quietly, Congress extends a ban on CDC research on gun violence | Public Radio International


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Chicane32 said:


> What is plain to see? That about 90% of all gun related homicides are directly related to drugs and territory. Is this the story where 3 people were killed with a knife? I guess they must have missed that.


The Onion article is referring to mass-shootings and how we are the only "western" developed nation where this constantly happens. I'd submit that most mass-shootings are NOT over drugs and territory, they appear to be relatively normal people that "snap". I'm sure we could pull up the statistics if you want. Off my hand from research I've done over the past few weeks, we have more than 3x as many gun-related deaths as the next developed nations (Finland, France, Austria) and nearly the same rate as Mexico, which is constantly used as the "what if only the bad guys and military have guns" example. But more than 3x higher. Yeah, those other countries are doing something a lot better than us...


----------



## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Military service cured me of wanting to play with guns. I recommend it.

40 years of mountain biking, including places where grizzly bears outnumber people, I have never been in a situation where I wished I had a gun. But there are people who would have lugged an extra three or four pounds of weapon plus ammo, don't forget the ammo, for all those many thousands of miles. If you're really loaded for bear, make that seven or eight pounds of weapon. If I'm going to lug around that kind of weight, I'll make sure it's something more useful than a firearm.

A firearm adds another few hundred dollars to the cost of your bike equipment. It has to be protected from the elements and cleaned after every outing, even if it isn't fired. It has to be secured from theft even more than the bike; it's one thing to have your Camelbak or jacket stolen, it's quite another if there is a piece in it. It is a major liability in any sort of bike crash, it can go off, get damaged, or damage the concealed owner who falls on it. My experience includes lots and lots of bike crashes and I would not have wanted to be toting a firearm during any of them.

I don't care one way or another that they do it, I just think they're idiots and I hope they're riding somewhere that I'm not.


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

You guys are always right and nothing I point out can never be right. Ok, do people need guns to commit mass murders or suicides, no. Eliminate guns and they will find other means to commit murders and kill themselves. It's wouldn't have been hard for that kid in Oregon to drive his car into a crowded cross walk at 60 mph which would happen more if there were no guns. Just like it happened in Belgium a few months ago that killed 10. No one here would ever blame the car, but people won't stop blaming guns. It seems like your eliminating guns is the number one argument in stopping these things from happening, even though it's clear that there are plenty of other ways if guns weren't available. People are clearly sick and that's the problem, but guns are the excuse, just ask the President. No one would ever jump off a bridge or a building, would they. Oh ya someone did jump off a building last week and they landed aon a poor guy walking by. He luckily survived.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Chicane32 said:


> Eliminate guns and they will find other means to commit murders and kill themselves.


The science and stats do not support that. The science that has been proven in studies is that if tools that make it "easy" to kill are less accessible (guns, RPGs, bombs, etc.), people tend to not kill at anywhere near the rate when it was "easy" with those tools easily accessible.

In other words, a modern society needs "barriers" to conducting that kind of behavior. The more barriers there are, the less likely people are to commit those kinds of crimes and engage in that kind of behavior. Otherwise, it's Lord of the Flies and chaos like Africa and the ME.

They are designing that capability out of cars BTW, look up "Pedestrian Detection"...coming standard on cars in Europe and starting to come on US cars now. It's also significantly harder to kill a bunch of people with a car in that situation than a M16 and a few clips, as you need ample opportunity and crowded streets and then at best you'll take out a few, but mainly injure the rest. Highly unlikely that you are going to kill 30 people, and the mass killings seem to be targeted, a school that some went to or somewhere that the person felt they were "wronged" at some point. Driving a car into the building is probably not the effect they are looking for.


----------



## Mojave G (Jan 30, 2015)

Jayem said:


> I'd submit that most mass-shootings are NOT over drugs and territory, they appear to be relatively normal people that "snap"..


Not "normal people" really, alot have mental health issues, meds, whatever, and most occur in "gun-free" zones ie schools, movie theaters, church, Norway.


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

EugeneTheJeep said:


> Not "normal people" really, alot have mental health issues, meds, whatever, and most occur in "gun-free" zones ie schools, movie theaters, church, Norway.


You can't disagree with Jayem, he 100% right in everything he points out. Just look at his folder full of graphs. We all know that keeping drugs illegal has worked and keeps them off the streets, so why not guns. Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the Nation and look, gun violence is down in Chicago.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Chicane32 said:


> Chicago has...


You realize you need significantly more than one example to prove statistical significance, right?


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

j_wynn said:


> Did you seriously just post an article from the satire website "the onion" as fact?


No, I posted it because its comic absurdity matches your own. The thing about comedy is that it is only effective when it is based in the truth.

I'm well aware of the nuances of both the english language and of satire, for three years I single handedly ran the Onion's top competitor.

I suspect you knew this though and just wanted to pretend you didn't understand-- because it gave you an opportunity for a smear against someone that disagrees with your religion of gun politics.

It's a weak tactic born from a weak argument.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Chicane32 said:


> You can't disagree with Jayem, he 100% right in everything he points out. Just look at his folder full of graphs.


Is trying to ridicule your opponents all you have to offer as a debate? Let's turn the tables...

From my experience with the fringe gun kooks out there, they put out a front of bullheaded anger that is really meant to cover their hidden sense of fear and helplessness. Their bluff is cover for weakness, it's all all an act and I know it.

People get intimidated by these guys and their angry bravado, I laugh at them because I know better. The reality is quite the opposite.

To respectful and intelligent gun owners I apologize, you aren't the problem but you know as well as I that these fruitcakes are off the deep end, they are driving you over a cliff with them and in my opinion,. your silence isn't helping your cause in the long run.

These nuts are speaking for all gun owners and the more they cement the image of crazy, paranoid vigilantes with anger issues, the harder it will be to appeal to public opinion.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

The funny thing about the 'satire' in that Onion headline is that there isn't any. That is precisely what the majority of people believe and it's absurd.

We are the only country where this happens. Gee, do you think there is a CAUSE?


----------



## Prophet Julio (May 8, 2008)

Australia is a good place to support the theory that if you implement serious gun control, gun violence diminishes. It will never go away completely because somewhere someone lost their Sh%t and did something really stupid.


----------



## knutso (Oct 8, 2008)

8 of the top 20 Gun owning countries in the world are also among the top 20 most peaceful countries. The freedom to possess firearms is not the problem. If you ask me, it is the idolitry of modern fame leading to social stratification and extremely selfish behaviours, that is just my honest opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_Index

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

I do not see the need to carry a gun when riding.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Australia is another country where guns are legal. Here is their take...

President Obama was wrong: Australia is not like the US


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

knutso said:


> 8 of the top 20 Gun owning countries in the world are also among the top 20 most peaceful countries. The freedom to possess firearms is not the problem. If you ask me, it is the idolitry of modern fame leading to social stratification and extremely selfish behaviours, that is just my honest opinion.


You blame gun violence on the idolatry of fame seekers and 'social stratification?' I don't see the connection.

In those countries you name, do they have a culture that puts guns on a pedestal, shows them off and brags about them, talks about how they can do no wrong and are 'social equalizers?' Do these countries allow their citizens to walk into a freaking Wendy's and get salad bar with a loaded AK 47?

Or are they quietly in the closet or safe, not discussed in public?

I see one big outlier in US society that no other gun possessing country has, it is the loud, angry kooks and lobbyists who seem to have a Die Hard III/John Wayne fantasy that they are good guys under siege who need protection.

I've been around enough of these fringe kooks to clearly see that they want an excuse to use their weapons and subconsciously seek them.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Let me post the first few lines of the Sydney Morning Herald article, this is how a highly conservative country sees us:

_In his very fine speech this morning, full of sorrow and frustration, President Obama made a mistake: Australia is not like the United States. We decided not to be.

We decided to grow up instead and become a more reasonable, rational society that explicitly values human life and prefers to think the best of people, rather than the worst.

The US is too immature a society to be allowed to play with guns. It has never shed its Wild West mythology. Americans still use their courts to kill people, which sends a message in its own way. Read The New Yorker's account of the Rodricus Crawford case and see a state that thinks taking a life is a no big deal. It's a country that values property more than life.
...
Unlike Australia, the US is at war with itself, strongly divided on racial, religious, political and social lines. We have our problems, significantly worse in some places than others, but overall our gaps are bridgeable. The US seems to prefer to use its societal chasms as moats and defend their borders._


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

knutso said:


> 8 of the top 20 Gun owning countries in the world are also among the top 20 most peaceful countries. The freedom to possess firearms is not the problem. If you ask me, it is the idolitry of modern fame leading to social stratification and extremely selfish behaviours, that is just my honest opinion.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_IndexIll look it up when I get home, but
> 
> ...


I'm going to assume for now that those countries have far more strict gun laws than us, nearly everyone does.


----------



## bloodninja (Jul 11, 2012)

Beach Ride said:


> Let me post the first few lines of the Sydney Morning Herald article, this is how a highly conservative country sees us:
> 
> _In his very fine speech this morning, full of sorrow and frustration, President Obama made a mistake: Australia is not like the United States. We decided not to be.
> 
> ...


Australia has a much more homogeneous population than us and very limited immigration. Of course they are much less divided than we are. Damn right they're not like the United States, but F that guy for lecturing us.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

bloodninja said:


> Australia has a much more homogeneous population than us and very limited immigration. Of course they are much less divided than we are. Damn right they're not like the United States, but F that guy for lecturing us.


You create the very divide you justify yourself with when you see others in terms of 'homogenous' to yourself. People from outside the county are not a separate and invasive species.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

They say a goldfish can't see the water it swims in. Standing outside the fishbowl, it is much easier to see when the water is dirty and needs changing.

The fish though just sees a brown world and concludes that everyone else is full of ****....

Could be that the whole world plus half of this country aren't ALL wrong on this issue. When everyone else is wrong, perhaps something is coloring your perspectives...


----------



## Haymarket (Jan 20, 2008)

Beach Ride said:


> they are good guys under siege who need protection.
> 
> .


Perhaps that thought process is one reason we are the oldest major democracy on earth and by far the wealthiest and most prosperous and secure nation....many others have disarmed the people at some point and imposed their tyrannical will...not here. It seems to work very well...I say we keep it.


----------



## cameden (Aug 28, 2013)

maybe if i lived in alaska? i just have a big ol knife strapped to the outside of my pack, more for sex appeal though....


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Haymarket said:


> Perhaps that thought process is one reason we are the oldest major democracy on earth and by far the wealthiest and most prosperous and secure nation....many others have disarmed the people at some point and imposed their tyrannical will...not here. It seems to work very well...I say we keep it.


Yes, except for the mass shootings and death-rate-by-guns over 3x higher than the next comparable developed nation, it's working awesome. There's only dying to worry about.


----------



## Haymarket (Jan 20, 2008)

Jayem said:


> Yes, except for the mass shootings and death-rate-by-guns over 3x higher than the next comparable developed nation, it's working awesome. There's only dying to worry about.


Do you intentionally lie, or do you not know the facts? Here is the fact checker result on the "developed nation" Obama lie:

"Among developed countries &#8230; the U.S. isn't anywhere close to having the highest homicide rate. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the arbiter of which countries are considered industrialized, ranks Russia and Brazil far ahead of the U.S., with homicide rates that are respectively 2 1/2 to five times higher than ours. Our rate was tied with Chile's, and just slightly above the average for developed countries."


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I didn't quote the homicide rate, I quoted deaths by firearms. Thanks for not paying attention. Not only that, I didn't claim it had the highest rate either.


----------



## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

Beach Ride said:


> Australia is another country where guns are legal. Here is their take...
> 
> President Obama was wrong: Australia is not like the US


Yes, it's hard being "lectured," but there's more than a little truth in his analysis of the American psyche.


----------



## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

The Australian angle is always funny. Everything is so expensive and taxes are so high, they have SFA disposable income (as compared to the USA).

Guns are not cheap and they'd be 2-3 times what you pay in the USA. Aussies just don't have that kind of money to spend. 

...and besides, you've never been able to carry a loaded gun around, let alone even own a handgun. 

Forget using one for self defense. You have to call the cops and flee your house if your daughter being raped. You can't take maters into your own hands (bat, knife.. anything). It's ****ed up.


----------



## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

*Did someone drink the Kool Aid?*



Steve71 said:


> The Australian angle is always funny. Everything is so expensive and taxes are so high, they have SFA disposable income (as compared to the USA).
> 
> Guns are not cheap and they'd be 2-3 times what you pay in the USA. Aussies just don't have that kind of money to spend.
> 
> ...


Your claims about Australia's self defense laws seemed the most dubious, so I started there. You're completely wrong there, if you can believe Wikpedia.
You are correct about gun laws down under being more restrictive that the US, but you can own a handgun subject to certain restrictions. So technically you're wrong there, too. Long guns must be registered.

Ran out of time before I could check out your other assertions. I am a gunowner, btw, and I am currently in the market for a new handgun and considering a concealed weapon permit when I move to another state next year. I also believe in sharing factual information.

Australian self defense laws
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defence_(Australia)

You can google the rest of it yourself.


----------



## Guest (Oct 11, 2015)

veloborealis said:


> I also believe in sharing factual information.


 That almost never goes well in a concealed carry, my big knife or awesome strap thread.


----------



## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

veloborealis said:


> Your claims about Australia's self defense laws seemed the most dubious, so I started there. You're completely wrong there, if you can believe Wikpedia.
> You are correct about gun laws down under being more restrictive that the US, but you can own a handgun subject to certain restrictions. So technically you're wrong there, too. Long guns must be registered.
> 
> Ran out of time before I could check out your other assertions. I am a gunowner, btw, and I am currently in the market for a new handgun and considering a concealed weapon permit when I move to another state next year. I also believe in sharing factual information.
> ...


I am Australian, but live in the USA. 28 years there and 16 here.

Trust me, you can and never have been able to carry a loaded hand gun. You basically have to store and transport firearms with the bolt removed.


----------



## SleepeRst (Nov 30, 2011)

Since this thread is about concealed carrying when you are riding your MTB, presumably on MTB trails, it's downright sad if people think they need the protection of a fire arm while riding their bike. If you feel at risk from other people where you ride, don't ride there!!! 

MAYBE if you were riding in an area with bears or an animal that could attack you is the only sane reason to carry on a MOUNTAIN BIKE RIDE.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

veloborealis said:


> Your claims about Australia's self defense laws seemed the most dubious, so I started there. You're completely wrong there, if you can believe Wikpedia.
> You are correct about gun laws down under being more restrictive that the US, but you can own a handgun subject to certain restrictions. So technically you're wrong there, too. Long guns must be registered.
> 
> Ran out of time before I could check out your other assertions. I am a gunowner, btw, and I am currently in the market for a new handgun and considering a concealed weapon permit when I move to another state next year. I also believe in sharing factual information.
> ...


I've learned that there is almost no honesty in these folks.


----------



## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

SleepeRst said:


> Since this thread is about concealed carrying when you are riding your MTB, presumably on MTB trails, it's downright sad if people think they need the protection of a fire arm while riding their bike. If you feel at risk from other people where you ride, don't ride there!!!
> 
> MAYBE if you were riding in an area with bears or an animal that could attack you is the only sane reason to carry on a MOUNTAIN BIKE RIDE.


Most of my riding is not on MTB trails. I live in the Kisatchie National Forest and generally have been riding dirt, gravel, and ATV trails.

Plus a lot of roads. I'm training for the 2016 Tour Divide. I've gone from thinking a thirty mile ride is an epic to routinely riding fifty miles four or five times a week. I still have a long way to go and about 20 pounds to lose.

But you're right, if I really thought the chances of being attacked were reasonably high I'd pick another route. This is for the same reason that we tend to avoid bad neighborhoods. Some of the areas I ride in are fairly remote, however and you never know what you'll find. I also carry tools and small repair parts like chain links and the like.


----------



## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

It's concealed. So you have no way of knowing whether I carry a self defense weapon or not. If you ask I will probably lie to you. If a peace officer asks I will answer truthfully.

Whether I carry a self defense weapon or not is none of your business, and you need not be concerned one way or another, unless you try to do something stupid to me or another person nearby. If you are a peaceful law abiding citizen you are safer with a lawfully armed person nearby, whether you know it or not. It is a lot like vaccinations. When the majority are vaccinated, even those not vaccinated are safer from disease. Same with concealed self defense weapons. They protect the nearby weak and unarmed as well as the lawfully armed.


----------



## Davide (Jan 29, 2004)

h20-50 said:


> Thanks for the input and I did search and read them. Feel free to go onto other threads if you don't have any useful information to offer.


Interesting thread if completely off topic. Interesting, in a sad way, how some claim that guns improve safety. Always intrigues me how simple facts seem not to matter, as in denying that global warming exist. Just to name a few facts related to guns.


More than 30,000 firearm related death per year in the USA (it is braking into the top ten causes of death, double to triple that number for firearm related injuries).
The highest mortality rate due to firearm than any other industrialized nation (4 times compared to Brazil. 20-40 times compared to EEC).
1,000 mass shootings in the USA in the last 3 years. Resulting in more than 1000 deaths
People who report "firearm access" are at twice the risk of homicide and more than three times the risk of suicide compared to those who do not own or have access to firearms

Obviously there is a problem. And it will not be solved by making more billions for the Gun industry in gun sales.

(To reply to the main topic: Carry a gun when riding? Why on earth unless you are afraid of Grizzly Bears? :eekster: )


----------



## BobbyFord (Oct 11, 2015)

But...........................regardless of how you feel about firearms, it is a free country where those that care to own and carry firearms are free to do so.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

dave54 said:


> It's concealed. So you have no way of knowing whether I carry a self defense weapon or not. If you ask I will probably lie to you. If a peace officer asks I will answer truthfully.
> 
> Whether I carry a self defense weapon or not is none of your business, and you need not be concerned one way or another, unless you try to do something stupid to me or another person nearby. If you are a peaceful law abiding citizen you are safer with a lawfully armed person nearby, whether you know it or not. It is a lot like vaccinations. When the majority are vaccinated, even those not vaccinated are safer from disease. Same with concealed self defense weapons. They protect the nearby weak and unarmed as well as the lawfully armed.


It is my business because I know that guns and 'peaceful law abiding citizens' aren't always the same thing.

I am POSSIBLY safer with a SANE armed person nearby, but my experience has been that guns are a powerful draw for the angry and disturbed. I have never seen a situation that was defused with a 'law-abiding' gun. Ever. I've never known it to happen to anyone I know.

When you have been shot at for fun with the intent to kill, held at bay by a disturbed classmate with his dads rifle, or been hunted by a truckload of yahoo's for daring to knock on a country door after running off the road, or have a close family member shot by a 'good guy' off-duty cop in a fit of anger - you might reconsider that nearby guns are 'always' safer.

Stepping back to look at things in perspective, most of the civilized world prefers that folks not be walking in public with loaded handguns. They didn't turn into Nazi states as some more hysterical people like to imagine. Those part of the world are CONSIDERABLY safer than ours. If concealed guns are making us safer, WHERE exactly is this happening?

I'm actually not against guns or even concealed weapons for most people, you seem just fine to me but the endless exaggerations and outright lies from the gun lobby and from its extremists who talk for everyone else make me want to spit. My neighbor is a gun collector who is afraid to use E-Bay so I buy parts for him. I am not going to make choices for him if he is not a threat to anyone else.

But, I know that most people talking about the dangers of the 'real world' though have never actually seen them. My experience is that the REAL dangers of the world are the paranoids who talk about how dangerous everyone else is. Those are the guys who allow their paranoia to see good people as threats.

There are far too may George Zimmer's out there who think killing is a badge of pride. I know who is fueling this hatred and fear and it needs to stop. It is insanity.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

dave54 said:


> It's concealed. So you have no way of knowing whether I carry a self defense weapon or not. If you ask I will probably lie to you. If a peace officer asks I will answer truthfully.
> 
> Whether I carry a self defense weapon or not is none of your business, and you need not be concerned one way or another, unless you try to do something stupid to me or another person nearby. If you are a peaceful law abiding citizen you are safer with a lawfully armed person nearby, whether you know it or not. It is a lot like vaccinations. When the majority are vaccinated, even those not vaccinated are safer from disease. Same with concealed self defense weapons. They protect the nearby weak and unarmed as well as the lawfully armed.


Vaccinations is a horrible analogy. A vaccinated person is cured of disease regardless of whether others vaccinate.

I am not immune to being shot though with more guns around me. I think that common sense would be that I am far MORE likely to be shot with everyone else armed.

You clearly haven't thought the concept of everyone being armed through. It's ridiculous, people don't need a gun to go to the frickin' Olive Garden for a salad. Civilized societies are built on mutual trust, not mutual fear.

Paranoia is the real threat.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

dave54 said:


> If you are a peaceful law abiding citizen


There's no such thing. This is a fantasy concocted by the NRA. I would be you go slightly over the speed limit at times, roll through intersections, maybe get a parking violation, take alcohol across state lines, etc. The point is that you choose what laws to follow and what ones you feel you can get away with and rationalize not following. Everyone is different in terms of this threshold, but there's no such thing as a "law abiding citizen", that's just fairy tale.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Davide said:


> More than 30,000 firearm related death per year in the USA (it is braking into the top ten causes of death, double to triple that number for firearm related injuries).



33,169 in 2013 according to the CDC, about 3x the rate of impaired driving related deaths (including prescriptions and drugs, in addition to alcohol).


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Could be that the 'nearby weak and unarmed' are actually far stronger than the gun folks for having the mental toughness to go out in the world unarmed.


----------



## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

SleepeRst said:


> Since this thread is about concealed carrying when you are riding your MTB, presumably on MTB trails, it's downright sad if people think they need the protection of a fire arm while riding their bike. If you feel at risk from other people where you ride, don't ride there!!!
> 
> MAYBE if you were riding in an area with bears or an animal that could attack you is the only sane reason to carry on a MOUNTAIN BIKE RIDE.


In reference to the OPs original question, I should add that while I am purchasing a new handgun, it will NOT be part of my riding kit. I just don't see the need. I live in grizzly country and routinely see bear sign on rides, with actually bear sightings a couple of times each summer. I don't consider handguns reliable bear protection, and I'm certainly not going to carry a rifle or shotgun on my bike. I do use bear spray on many rides, especially when riding in areas where visibility isn't good due to vegetation, increasing the chances of an abrupt encounter with a feeding bear or a sow with cubs. I also attach a bear bell to my bike or pack to let them know I am coming. Never had a close encounter, but that may be due to fairly heavy hunting pressure in my area. Bears around here have every reason to fear human encounters. I'm far more nervous hiking in Denali National Park or other areas where bears are protected.

The handgun purchase and carry permit will be for desert car camping when I move to the SW next year. Never used to think about packing heat on non-hunting camping trips when I was younger. Maybe that's the fear and apprehension that comes with getting older, or maybe I shouldn't have watched _Breaking Bad_ and _No Country For Old Men_. If I start thinking I need to carry while riding, though, I'll be looking for different places to ride.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

veloborealis said:


> II live in grizzly country and routinely see bear sign on rides, with actually bear sightings a couple of times each summer. I don't consider handguns reliable bear protection, and I'm certainly not going to carry a rifle or shotgun on my bike. I do use bear spray on many rides, especially when riding in areas where visibility isn't good due to vegetation, increasing the chances of an abrupt encounter with a feeding bear or a sow with cubs. I also attach a bear bell to my bike or pack to let them know I am coming. Never had a close encounter, but that may be due to fairly heavy hunting pressure in my area.
> 
> The handgun purchase and carry permit will be for desert car camping when I move to the SW next year.


I'd consider carrying if camping overnight in grizzly country but I'd feel safer with an electric perimeter fence and a couple fat cans bear spray.

Bear encounters tend to be a surprise for both where you don't have time to aim and fire a gun effectively. A bell is probably your best real world defense.

Had once close encounter in Montana, taking a mountain road walk on a dark moonless night with a girl when we were in HS. We were at a keg party deep in the woods and took off for a long walk.

We heard a large twig snap next to us and instantly knew what it was. We turned to see the silhouette of a large bear ambling right alongside us, 10 feet away and hip high at the shoulders. Likely he was following us for a awhile, 10 minutes earlier some ranch house dogs in the distance were going absolutely apeshit. We never heard a thing.

We did what everyone says not to and ran, we were on the way back and about 1/3 mile from our group. We looked back and he was standing up in the road sniffing around for us. Huge.

Not sure if it was a black bear or a grizzly, most likely a big black. That is predatory behavior though, it was late fall when they get desperate and he was sizing us up. He could have taken us at any time and we wouldn't have ever seen it coming. Not even time for spray.

I can't see a gun being much use against surprise bear encounters, and almost no use on a bicycle. You aren't going to see that bear until it is already on top of you.


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Jayem said:


> 33,169 in 2013 according to the CDC, about 3x the rate of impaired driving related deaths (including prescriptions and drugs, in addition to alcohol).


 I'm guessing that more then half were at the hands of criminals and the deaths weren't from law abiding gun owners.


----------



## Beach Ride (Mar 26, 2015)

Chicane32 said:


> I'm guessing that more then half were at the hands of criminals and the deaths weren't from law abiding gun owners.


^ These folks think they are 'the good guys' under siege, it is pure fantasy.

Their paranoia should not form the basis of policy for the rest of us. Why do we so meekly let the fringes of our society define values for the rest of us???

They only want to create a false perception of society and a deep-rooted fear of the people around us to promote their guns. It is sick.

We had a school shooting or a mass-shooting every day this week. We are getting used to it and it's time to reel it in.


----------



## loopsb (Aug 9, 2004)

Why are you incessantly trying to define our values. Go ahead and re read the first sentence of this thread. I see you as a kook, please troll another thread


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Beach Ride said:


> ^ These folks think they are 'the good guys' under siege, it is pure fantasy.
> 
> Their paranoia should not form the basis of policy for the rest of us. Why do we so meekly let the fringes of our society define values for the rest of us???
> 
> ...


These folks? Most responsible people own gun because they enjoy shooting them, or enjoy collecting them, or both. The same reason we ride MTN bikes, because we enjoy the thrill. 
Every time I hear someone like you bring up the word paranoid it makes me laugh. I sure hope that you don't store any extra water/food in your home, or any jumper cables in your car, because if you do, you must be paranoid. Are you paranoid if you have smoke alarms in your house or a fire extinguisher in your garage? Yep, that's exactly how dumb you and you anti gun buddies sound. It's called prepaired, just in case something bad happens, you will have what you need. Your right, this thread is way off topic.


----------



## veloborealis (Oct 25, 2009)

loopsb said:


> Why are you incessantly trying to define our values. Go ahead and re read the first sentence of this thread. I see you as a kook, please troll another thread


You have a point, loopsb, thanks for trying to get things back on track. I lost sight of the fact that the OP did not want to start another gun control debate thread. Apologies to the OP for my part in the derailment.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Chicane32 said:


> These folks? Most responsible people own gun because they enjoy shooting them, or enjoy collecting them, or both. The same reason we ride MTN bikes, because we enjoy the thrill.
> Every time I hear someone like you bring up the word paranoid it makes me laugh. I sure hope that you don't store any extra water/food in your home, or any jumper cables in your car, because if you do, you must be paranoid. Are you paranoid if you have smoke alarms in your house or a fire extinguisher in your garage? Yep, that's exactly how dumb you and you anti gun buddies sound. It's called prepaired, just in case something bad happens, you will have what you need. Your right, this thread is way off topic.


Well, since you brought it up, would you rather have a gun or something that would be more statistically necessary, like a bigger first aid kit and splinting material, or firestarting material and a water filter? You know, just in case "something happens"? Or does the gun make you feel like you are in Die Hard?


----------



## Cornbread1 (Jun 17, 2015)

Jayem said:


> Well, since you brought it up, would you rather have a gun or something that would be more statistically necessary, like a bigger first aid kit and splinting material, or firestarting material and a water filter? You know, just in case "something happens"? Or does the gun make you feel like you are in Die Hard?


I think the packing the gun makes some thing else small feel hard. Odds are by having the gun on him, it will die hard too.


----------



## David R (Dec 21, 2007)

Chicane32 said:


> Most responsible people own gun because they enjoy shooting them, or enjoy collecting them, or both. The same reason we ride MTN bikes, because we enjoy the thrill.


I know plenty of people like that, yet none of them feel the need to stuff a gun down their pants when they go to the supermarket, even if it were legal here....


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Jayem said:


> Well, since you brought it up, would you rather have a gun or something that would be more statistically necessary, like a bigger first aid kit and splinting material, or firestarting material and a water filter? You know, just in case "something happens"? Or does the gun make you feel like you are in Die Hard?


I have all the stuff you mentioned.


----------



## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Well, since you brought it up, would you rather have a gun or something that would be more statistically necessary, like a bigger first aid kit and splinting material, or firestarting material and a water filter? You know, just in case "something happens"? Or does the gun make you feel like you are in Die Hard?


The fact that you keep equating carrying a gun to the Die Hard movie makes it plainly obvious that you tie emotions to guns and are the kind of person beach rider would fear. Kinda ironic


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

Ducman said:


> The fact that you keep equating carrying a gun to the Die Hard movie makes it plainly obvious that you tie emotions to guns and are the kind of person beach rider would fear. Kinda ironic


I think this troll must have an obsession with Bruce Willis's butt hole. He can't stop bringing it up.


----------



## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Chicane32 said:


> Please make sure you plug your nose when you are licking Obummers butt hole.





Chicane32 said:


> I think this troll must have an obsession with Bruce Willis's butt hole. He can't stop bringing it up.


Have something to tell us?

You keep on bringing up the male anus. What gives?


----------



## Timon (May 11, 2008)

Chicane32 said:


> It's called prepaired, just in case something bad happens, you will have what you need. Your right, this thread is way off topic.


i believe you're more likely to die by a gun if you own one than die by one if you don't...

you'd actually statistically be better prepared to survive if you didn't own a gun.


----------



## Steve71 (Mar 15, 2004)

Davide said:


> Interesting thread if completely off topic. Interesting, in a sad way, how some claim that guns improve safety. Always intrigues me how simple facts seem not to matter, as in denying that global warming exist. Just to name a few facts related to guns.
> 
> 
> More than 30,000 firearm related death per year in the USA (it is braking into the top ten causes of death, double to triple that number for firearm related injuries).





What percentage of that number are suicides?


----------



## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Jayem said:


> There's no such thing. This is a fantasy concocted by the NRA. I would be you go slightly over the speed limit at times, roll through intersections, maybe get a parking violation, take alcohol across state lines, etc. The point is that you choose what laws to follow and what ones you feel you can get away with and rationalize not following. Everyone is different in terms of this threshold, but there's no such thing as a "law abiding citizen", that's just fairy tale.


Come on now. That's a little extreme. My inspection sticker on my car is a month out of date. Maybe that makes me a stone-cold criminal in your eyes but this is not the same thing as burning and horribly disfiguring your children in a meth lab explosion (something that I saw in my ER a few weeks ago).

True, there is a threshold but the threshold is the thing. I think the sheriff's deputies in my parish don't really worry much about me and my extreme criminal activity.

Maybe if the term "law-abiding citizen" disturbs you we could just substitute the phrase "good citizen" which would allow for a little rule-breaking. There are good citizens who you can depend on to do the right thing when it counts...and of course there are people who won't.

(I just haven't had time to get a new inspection sticker. This involves a drive into town of half an hour, a wait of about two hours usually, and a half hour drive back. I work nights and usually don't get up until one or two and this would seriously undermine my ride time or eat into one of my few days off. My car is a year old. Why does it need to be inspected every year anyway?)


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Ailuropoda said:


> My car is a year old. Why does it need to be inspected every year anyway?)


Because people driving around with wrecked cars that pose a hazard to other people on the road was a big enough problem to pass a law for inspection?


----------



## Chicane32 (Jul 12, 2015)

nomit said:


> i believe you're more likely to die by a gun if you own one than die by one if you don't...
> 
> you'd actually statistically be better prepared to survive if you didn't own a gun.


And I'm guessing that the patrons in this Cafe were better off being at the mercy of the robber. 
Police: Concealed Permit Holder Shoots, Kills Armed Robber In Connecticut Cafe - Breitbart


----------



## particle (Sep 26, 2015)

Man stabbed to death on White Rock trail in Dallas


----------



## particle (Sep 26, 2015)

Sorry if this is a double post, but I posted just the link and it didn't show up. This is in the Dallas news today - someone was brutally hacked to death with a machete on the White Rock Lake trail.

Man stabbed to death on White Rock trail in Dallas


----------



## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Some people carry concealed weapons, some do not.

This thread has gone on long enough.

Too many political posts in threads like these. You want to discuss concealed carry, go find a gun site to do so on.


----------

