# Lights for trail riding



## asinchaos (Apr 19, 2014)

Thinking of getting a set of lights for trail riding and singletracks. Nothing too high speed. How may lumens would be the minimum? Pretty much oblivious to this lumen thing.

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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

I got a NiteRider Lumina 400 bar mount for about $70 last year. It's probably as low as I'd go, lumens-wise. NR has the same unit but with more lumens, they're nice and compact. Mine's bright, but more lumens and run time would be nice.

Get a bar mount, then a helmet mount. Mtbr has a shload of light reviews, fc thrives on those things. 

2016 Bike Lights Shootout: Headlights - Mtbr.com


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## asinchaos (Apr 19, 2014)

Finch Platte said:


> I got a NiteRider Lumina 400 bar mount for about $70 last year. It's probably as low as I'd go, lumens-wise. NR has the same unit but with more lumens, they're nice and compact. Mine's bright, but more lumens and run time would be nice.
> 
> Get a bar mount, then a helmet mount. Mtbr has a shload of light reviews, fc thrives on those things.


Too many lights review to be honest. Makes it more difficult to come up with a decision 

Just hoping I would get opinions and insights from real users.

Thanx.

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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

Lights and Night Riding - Mtbr.com


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

asinchaos said:


> Too many lights review to be honest. Makes it more difficult to come up with a decision
> 
> Just hoping I would get opinions and insights from real users.
> 
> ...


Ok, well just cut through the BS and get this one: Review: CatEye Volt 6000 - Mtbr.com

Only 6,000 lumens, but would come in handy to start your campfire as well.

Or: https://www.rei.com/product/891681/...UB1mqHQz9rljTMDz7Yfbvv6VGVzyTKMKqwaAtOu8P8HAQ NR Lumina 750 for $80 at REI. A couple of negative reviews there, but I have had 0 issues with mine.


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## asinchaos (Apr 19, 2014)

Finch Platte said:


> Ok, well just cut through the BS and get this one: Review: CatEye Volt 6000 - Mtbr.com
> 
> Only 6,000 lumens, but would come in handy to start your campfire as well.


Looked it up. It costs almost as much as my bike 

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## voghan (Aug 18, 2014)

You'll want two lights: one for the handlebars and one for your head. I ride a lot of twisty single track so one light doesn't cut it. Need to for where I'm looking and one for where the bike is heading. I like the NiteRider ones. Not as heavy as they look and great battery life.


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## asinchaos (Apr 19, 2014)

voghan said:


> You'll want two lights: one for the handlebars and one for your head. I ride a lot of twisty single track so one light doesn't cut it. Need to for where I'm looking and one for where the bike is heading. I like the NiteRider ones. Not as heavy as they look and great battery life.


Lumenwise, what is the minimum for each (hb and helmet)?

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## 411898 (Nov 5, 2008)

At least 1200 lumens. Split it between two lights. One on your helmet and one on your handlebars.


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## voghan (Aug 18, 2014)

I went 450 and 750 with the two I got. I think they are the same size so I wear the stronger one on my head.


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

asinchaos said:


> Thinking of getting a set of lights for trail riding and singletracks. Nothing too high speed. How may lumens would be the minimum? Pretty much oblivious to this lumen thing.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One dual sim using Tapatalk


i just got a volt 1600, the 1200 setting is fine, the 1600 would be nice for fast fire road. It's a good light except that it's difficult to use the button with gloves on and i like to change outputs so my advice is get something with a better switch or even better a remote


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## blacksheep5150 (Oct 22, 2014)

A couple 700 lumen night riders would be good , but you can never have to much light . I learned that racing cars in Baja . In my case I run the 2200 lumen night rider enduro on my helmet , and eBay had a cool little carbon fiber light bar for 13 bucks and it holds 3 lights . I put 2 , 700 lumen night riders and 1 urban 550 . Hey my grand kids wanted me to see .. Lol.....


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

In the snow, we can get away with 500, otherwise I'd say 800-1000. If you can only get one light get a helmet light, if you can get two, get a helmet light for spot and a bar light for flood. I highly recommend two, of the 800-1000 lumen variety.


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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

Jayem said:


> If you can only get one light get a helmet light...


I disagree with this. I say get a bar setup first, then a helmet light. True, your helmet light goes where you look, but for me, the fact that you can't see the dips & gullies in the trail makes it almost dangerous.

Scar has some good advice in this thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/one-light-bar-mount-helmet-mount-818246.html

_Characteristics of where you place the light

Light on the bars - With the light being below your eyes, it produces "shadowing" of obstacles. The downside of the light being on the bars is the light is always pointed in the direction that you bars are pointed. Can be a problem on tight, twisty switch backs where you want to look around the corner. The other thing is having to make a repair in the dark with your light bar mounted. Almost have to remove it to get the light pointed where you need it

Light on your head - With the light above your eyes, it tends to "flatten" out obstacles as it doesn't produce as much "shadowing". The upside is that your light is always pointed directly where you are looking. Making repairs in the dark in much easier with the light on your head. The downside to a helmet mounted light only is that when you are looking to the sides or around a switchback, you don't have lighting on the ground (which could be actually visible in your peripheral vision). In snow, fog, and rain, a helmet only light can be difficult. The light reflecting back at you off of the moisture in the air can make visibility very difficult.

Light on both the helmet and the bars - Best of both worlds. Always have light directly out in front of you and where you are looking. If it gets snowing, raining, real dusty,or foggy and it is making visibility difficult because of the helmet light, then you just go bar only. All 24hr races require repetitive light systems for safety. I have heard stories of many people that have had their only light die on them and have had to walk out, not fun._


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## asinchaos (Apr 19, 2014)

Hawg said:


> At least 1200 lumens. Split it between two lights. One on your helmet and one on your handlebars.


Tx 😊

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## asinchaos (Apr 19, 2014)

voghan said:


> I went 450 and 750 with the two I got. I think they are the same size so I wear the stronger one on my head.


Tx 😊

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## Dusty Trails (Jul 24, 2011)

On run a 700lm Nightrider on my helmet, a 650lm Nightrider on my bar as a high beam, and a 350lm Nightrider on the other side of my bar as a low beam. When I ride at night with my son is put the 650 on his helmet and the 350 on his bar and I ride with just the 700 on my helmet. In any case it's has always been enough light. 

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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Finch Platte said:


> I disagree with this. I say get a bar setup first, then a helmet light. True, your helmet light goes where you look, but for me, the fact that you can't see the dips & gullies in the trail makes it almost dangerous.
> 
> Scar has some good advice in this thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/one-light-bar-mount-helmet-mount-818246.html
> 
> ...


One night last winter I forgot my helmet light and only had my bar for an enduro Fatbike race, was pretty dangerous because as my bike followed the terrain, I couldn't see ahead when I was on a slight uphill, relative to the average grade, my light would illuminate the trees, not the trail, even though it was pointing down, and then there were corners. Due to the lower angle, way more shadows with the bar light. Nothing reinforced the importance of a helmet light over a bar light more than this. The only situation where I'd suggest a bar light first is commuting, because you are going to set it to strobe.


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## asinchaos (Apr 19, 2014)

So if someone got a gun to your head and made you choose between bar light or helmet light, which would it be? 😃

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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

^ agree with Jayem, if i could only have one i'd want it on my helmet. no gun needed. switchbacks are scary if you only have a bar light. your light is pointed strait ahead while the trail goes 160 degrees back behind you and is completely dark. not good. 

I've ridden plenty with only one or the other and it's ok if you slow down enough not to endanger yourself. you can get through the woods that way, but if you intend on riding in the same manor as you do during the day, in a race for example, it's important to have both. 

Lumens: i use 450 bars, 750 head. the biggest advantage to more powerful lights is that you can run them on the low or medium setting and the battery lasts longer. 

the light pattern of the two makes a difference too. i think it's better to have a wide spread of light coming from the handlebar light because it's pointed down and if it's too focused you end up with a "hot spot" that is small and too bright instead of wider reaching, less focused light that shines out to the sides too. my headlight is ok if it's more focused so i can see farther down the trail.


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## asinchaos (Apr 19, 2014)

*OneSpeed* said:


> ^ agree with Jayem, if i could only have one i'd want it on my helmet. no gun needed. switchbacks are scary if you only have a bar light. your light is pointed strait ahead while the trail goes 160 degrees back behind you and is completely dark. not good.
> 
> I've ridden plenty with only one or the other and it's ok if you slow down enough not to endanger yourself. you can get through the woods that way, but if you intend on riding in the same manor as you do during the day, in a race for example, it's important to have both.
> 
> ...


That'a pretty comprehensive. I think I'll use this one as the reference for my light purchasing plan. Tx a lot 

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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

asinchaos said:


> That'a pretty comprehensive. I think I'll use this one as the reference for my light purchasing plan. Tx a lot
> 
> Sent from my HTC One dual sim using Tapatalk


is there a prize? what did i win?


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## asinchaos (Apr 19, 2014)

*OneSpeed* said:


> is there a prize? what did i win?


My biggest gratitude 

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## Arebee (Sep 13, 2012)

I'm a big fan of the NiteRider Lumina as well. I've had one 650 for a couple years now and added a second last year. There are probably 10 Luminas running in our riding group and not one has ever had an issue. I got my last one for $60 at Nashbar.


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## asinchaos (Apr 19, 2014)

Arebee said:


> I'm a big fan of the NiteRider Lumina as well. I've had one 650 for a couple years now and added a second last year. There are probably 10 Luminas running in our riding group and not one has ever had an issue. I got my last one for $60 at Nashbar.


Do you use one single set or both handlebar & helmet?

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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night-riding/light-recommendations-newbie-night-rider-1017896-3.html


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Man there are so much better lights out there than lumina. Don't require running 3 lights either, just 2 (or even one but for safety make sure to bring a decent flashlight with if only running one light) But I can't ride with luminas anyway. The cool white tint is horrible and causes a headache. I couldn't night ride except the quick commute home till I found neutral white lights.

The amount of lumens you need depends greatly on where and how you ride. The faster you want to go and the more technical the trail, the more light your going to want. BUT UNLESS WITH A GROUP USE 2 LIGHTS. One on the helmet and one on the bars.

I ride at night more than I do during the day (like many in the night riding sub forum) due to work and I ride with about 3000+lumens capable. Usually running about 800-1000 lumens on the bars with about 1800 on the helmet. I can ride lower but the higher output allows me to have the light more spread out and smooth while helmet light having the power to fully light around a switch back or well down the trail. Allowing me to ride the same speed at night as I do during the day. And with neutral white lights I can ACTUALLY SEE what's in front of me. Everything isn't frozen looking with poor or non-existant shadows.

Ride quality is just so much better avoiding lights made by nightrider, cateye etc. The "name brands". Brands like Ituo, glowworm and such make so much better lights IMO. Not to mention I can ride for hours upon hours or go several nights between charges because of better batteries, better output so I can run lower increasing runtime further and so on.

Right now I'm running a set of Ituo XP series lights. Xp3 on the helmet and xp2 on the bars. Usually running them at just over half power but when its needed I have almost 4000 lumens. Most of which is the xp3 on the helmet so when I hit high I can see 100yrds+ out in front of me.

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## Arebee (Sep 13, 2012)

asinchaos said:


> Do you use one single set or both handlebar & helmet?


I use one on the bars and one on the helmet. Works great. No concerns at all when I ride.


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## Blatant (Apr 13, 2005)

I recently asked a similar question here. I ended up with a Nitefighter BT40 (~$60 on Amazon) for my bars and an Ituo XP2 for my helmet. I have about $220 in the setup, which seems reasonable if you night ride a lot. You could clearly go cheaper, but around $200 seems a sweet spot for what you can buy.

As for which light if only one, I agree with Jayem. Having run with just helmet and just bar, if I could only have one light it would be on my helmet. No question at all.


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## asinchaos (Apr 19, 2014)

Blatant said:


> I recently asked a similar question here. I ended up with a Nitefighter BT40 (~$60 on Amazon) for my bars and an Ituo XP2 for my helmet. I have about $220 in the setup, which seems reasonable if you night ride a lot. You could clearly go cheaper, but around $200 seems a sweet spot for what you can buy.
> 
> As for which light if only one, I agree with Jayem. Having run with just helmet and just bar, if I could only have one light it would be on my helmet. No question at all.


Tx 

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## asinchaos (Apr 19, 2014)

Anybody had experience with Gemini lights? 

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

There has been a huge discussion about gemini (and review threads etc just have to look in here for them).

Not bad lights but have a pretty serious fault. 

Been discuss and determined that Ituo lights are FAR BETTER and the same price (actually a think a few dollars less right now)

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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

asinchaos said:


> Thinking of getting a set of lights for trail riding and singletracks. Nothing too high speed. How may lumens would be the minimum? Pretty much oblivious to this lumen thing.


I use the Gloworm XS/X2 Combo, can't say enought about their great service and they just had(have) a Fab refurb sale.

How old are you? At my 60+ yrs I need about 1k on helmet and bars(2k total).

My 18yo son gets by with about 4-500 on each.

go to the MTBR review and concentrate on lumens/$ and pick your price point.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Glowworm has really nice lights too. I have a set (x2 and xs).

I'm not a fan of Mtbr shootout. So many details are missed about lights. That's why I like the reviews here (and review some myself) because every base is covered so people truly know what their buying. Lumens per dollar is honestly probably one of the lowest importance points to make. Because lumens are only a small portion. The beam pattern (which takes a lot more than a picture in your back yard to determine), how the light deals with heat, how efficient the system is and so on.

Which is why several of us are preaching Ituo right now. In the lumens per dollar, efficiency, what you get overall for your buck, they win. Right in line with glowworm so far, just a bit new to the mountain biking lights scene so total longevity of the system is yet to be shown. Their all around USB lights have done really well though.

Glowworm would come out in top if they fixed that crappy UI issue where you end up in programming mode while riding. That is frustrating beyond belief cause it always happens at the wrong time till you get used to how to avoid it.

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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

So if it lights the trail well, stays running your entire ride and costs peanuts but doesn't fascinate lighting enthusiasts it's not good? I would rather sink my money into my bike and not my lights. I love the fact that my lights are 1/10th the cost of others listed above. I don't care if it's made out of recycled calculators as long as it works when I want it to and is bright enough to light the trail. The lights I have are very very bright. What gauge of wire or how much draw it pulls doesn't matter to me at all as long as it lights my ride and so far the one I listed and took the backyard pick with have been both reliable and functionality perfect. The only drawback I could think of is the rubber band mount. 

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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Terranaut said:


> So if it lights the trail well, stays running your entire ride and costs peanuts but doesn't fascinate lighting enthusiasts it's not good
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Exactly, but maybe not in those exact words. Most of the "enthusiasts" also own "cheap Chinese" and accept them for what they are knowing their questionable quality/reliability when they purchase them. Recommending them to someone is a whole different story. You may have gotten lucky and got a cheap light that suits your needs and hasn't given you any trouble (yet) but the fact remains that these lights are built with the cheapest possible parts and assembled with the cheapest/inexperienced labor with little or no quality control. Knowing this most of us are not comfortable recommending something that is a total waste of money in the case of a failure or worse in the case of putting someone in a situation where their in danger because of the lack of a working headlamp IMO.
Mole


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Some times cheap ones are great, it's just the high odds of failure vs more expensive ones. Some of us are critical of details but doesn't mean the lights aren't "good enough" to ride with. Except in my case if they aren't neutral white emitters you can't pay me enough to ride with them.

But there are a lot of posts around of cheap lights failing people (had it happen to a friend on a group ride a few weeks ago) so it's not a risk I feel is worth taking. Being able to see is literally life and death matter when riding trails, so I hate to say "ya buy that $20 one" cause no way I would. Not without expecting to open it up and fix things first so it doesn't fail in the first rough section.

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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

MRMOLE said:


> .......You may have gotten lucky and got a cheap light that suits your needs and hasn't given you any trouble (yet) but the fact remains that these lights are built with the cheapest possible parts and assembled with the cheapest/inexperienced labor with little or no quality control. Knowing this most of us are not comfortable recommending something that is a total waste of money in the case of a failure or worse in the case of putting someone in a situation where their in danger because of the lack of a working headlamp IMO.
> Mole


^ this exactly!!!!

In the early Magicshine 808 P7 days, I recommended them to two friends. Both had their batteries recalled by the seller Geomangear. Both failed within a year, but Geomangear had gone out of business due to the battery recall so no warranty. Both while on a ride. I ended up being able to fix them but it was a bit embarrassing to have recommended the purchase. Needless to say, I'm not advising anyone (I like ) to buy cheapo lights.


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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

Ok point taken but I would never ride without a backup light ever! I have had great luck with the particular lights in my post and have ridden with them quite a bit in many harsh conditions. Just posting my findings. 

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

There have been really good cheap lights over the years but it's a crap odds lottery anymore. Especially where batteries are concerned. Just a big story about a guys condo being gutted due to batteries/charger not being up to requirements and caught fire.

I have a couple chinese lights in really like, good for the money but I stick to recommending quality lights over anything now just because 5 ppl get good ones and 10 get crap ones of the same cheap light. But I have no issues saying even a cheap light is good if I run across them.

But just like bikes, you get what you pay for.

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## Terranaut (Jun 9, 2014)

Well then I am one who got more than he paid for ;-) I am shocked at just how bright these are for the money. I could buy 20 for the price of a similar output glowworm. 

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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

You can buy 20 huffys for the same price as 1 Salsa fat bike! Ok,I lost my train of thought.


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

Terranaut said:


> The only drawback I could think of is the rubber band mount.


I had a Oring snap at high speed a few years ago, pedal strike on a rock, broken collarbone, 7 miles of rocky single track back to the car, cheapo Chinese batteries blinking red the last 40mins on low, $6200 out of pocket on a $40k bill... bring on the Gloworm with extra 2 cell battery packs. Your mileage may vary


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## Vancbiker (May 25, 2005)

Terranaut said:


> ........ The only drawback I could think of is the rubber band mount.


I have a fix for that....

Go to the website in my sig line.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

patski said:


> I had a Oring snap at high speed a few years ago, pedal strike on a rock, broken collarbone, 7 miles of rocky single track back to the car, cheapo Chinese batteries blinking red the last 40mins on low, $6200 out of pocket on a $40k bill... bring on the Gloworm with extra 2 cell battery packs. Your mileage may vary


Perfect example why quality matters. Not so much a band mount, but the cheap band mounts break easily. And their only good for small lights.

Glowworm, Ituo, and some others have good mounting systems, though most of the others are much more pricey.

And for those that want to change to GoPro adapters, you got vancbiker who has GoPro adapters for about anything!

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## Finch Platte (Nov 14, 2003)

Blatant said:


> I recently asked a similar question here. I ended up with a Nitefighter BT40 (~$60 on Amazon) for my bars and an Ituo XP2 for my helmet. I have about $220 in the setup, which seems reasonable if you night ride a lot. You could clearly go cheaper, but around $200 seems a sweet spot for what you can buy.
> 
> As for which light if only one, I agree with Jayem. Having run with just helmet and just bar, if I could only have one light it would be on my helmet. No question at all.


Damn, that BT40 is a lot of light for $46. I'm guessing the battery pack is a separate unit (but is included)? Where do you put it, in the water bottle cage?


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Battery has Velcro straps. Mount it on frame or where you want. Full kit is $46, lighthead only is like $29. It's a good light. Same thing as the Amazon revtronic bt40 but be prepared to wait cause shipping is far from Amazon fast....


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

Dirt Road said:


> Battery has Velcro straps. Mount it on frame or where you want. Full kit is $46, lighthead only is like $29. It's a good light. Same thing as the Amazon revtronic bt40 but be prepared to wait cause shipping is far from Amazon fast....


It's been rebranded as Revtronic on Amazon with prime 2day shipping, easy returns and more $$... Wait, it's also called VOMLITE... 

I have one of these from China, very nice beam, only the Up arrow worked after a few weeks. It's now with my other cast offs....


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Finch Platte said:


> Damn, that BT40 is a lot of light for $46. I'm guessing the battery pack is a separate unit (but is included)? Where do you put it, in the water bottle cage?


After using this battery for a while I prefer mounting like this. I wrap one Velcro strap around the head tube and the other around the top tube.
Mole


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## GuitsBoy (Sep 24, 2013)

I have two NiteFighter/Revtronic BT40s now. First one from late last year, probably has about 350-400 miles of night riding on it, and has been working flawlessly. Then I just picked up another lamp unit to throw on my helmet, after my SSX2 mount got loose. Very nice lights for the money. Sad to hear about the button issue above, but I have not had the problem, nor has my brother, or our buddy who also have the same.


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

Mine was an original Magicshine clone/copy, always like the beam and have recommended it to several friends after it appeared on Amazon(with fast shipping and easy returns), not one friend has had a problem.

One buddy's came without the battery pack, he emailed them and had a full unit two days later, never had to send the light head back, nice.



GuitsBoy said:


> I have two NiteFighter/Revtronic BT40s now. First one from late last year, probably has about 350-400 miles of night riding on it, and has been working flawlessly. Then I just picked up another lamp unit to throw on my helmet, after my SSX2 mount got loose. Very nice lights for the money. Sad to hear about the button issue above, but I have not had the problem, nor has my brother, or our buddy who also have the same.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

That was the other good light that was out, not sure how I forgot about that one. A few bad ones but was a decent bar light for the money. I still have mine, my son uses it as his bar light.

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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Over the years I've also tried many lights on ST for both mtb and motos.

Finally I am happy:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LXTOPNU/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

What is often not discussed is the way the light is thrown on the trail. That light has a very broad pattern, really nice, and you would not want it any brighter. Haha, I have had really really bright ones PITA. Turns everything white, and usually the beam is too tight.


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## MtnBkrBob (Aug 15, 2007)

Going to buy a light for my '16 Stumpjumper. Looking at something like the ITO Wiz1 800. Concerned about the light staying secured to the handlebars and surviving the pounding it will take. Sometimes I can barely hold on to the bars slamming down a hill... can a headlight survive?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Wiz1 was designed for urban/pavement use. I have all of ituo's lights and I'd say it's fine for light (smooth) trail use. The light itself can take a pounding but it's a fair amount of weight on a GoPro mount. For your riding I'd be concerned how long the mount would hold up for. The XP series lights use the same mount but weigh ALOT less and put a lot less stress on the mount. I've laid the bike over (bail out) and xp2 light got knocked pointing straight up, not a mark on the mount.

Wiz20 is definitely better suited to what you want and has a lot more output. Wiz1 unless you have a helmet light too isn't a good idea for bombing rough trails on its own imo. But anything under 1000-1500 lumens output and less than 2 lights Is a very bad idea.

Now that said, if your aim is a bar light to compliment a helmet light, wiz1 would work fine just spend $7-$8 for an aluminum bolt on GoPro mount. 

Final thought: right tool for the job. Just like buying the right bike for what you ride, the right lights matter too if you plan to do a lot of night riding. But like a good bike built for the task and built to last, lights are the same way. Better to pay more up front than find out later its not quite what you were looking for and then wanting to buy something better. A lot of good and solid lights for serious trail riding, info on most of them right in this sub forum. Like a bike, determine your needs and your budget. We can point you the right directions.

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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MtnBkrBob said:


> Going to buy a light for my '16 Stumpjumper. Looking at something like the ITO Wiz1 800. Concerned about the light staying secured to the handlebars and surviving the pounding it will take. Sometimes I can barely hold on to the bars slamming down a hill... can a headlight survive?


The Wiz 1's were designed more with commuting in mind. I have one and the mount is pretty strong but I don't think I'd use it for mountain biking. I figure it this way; a large self-contained lamp is more likely to hit something if you take a fall. Almost anyone who mountain bikes takes a fall now and then. No telling how the mount will hold up if something gave the lamp a good size whack. ...Hmmm...the XP3 is basically using the same kind of mount so perhaps not that big an issue. Regardless a wider beam pattern is usually preferred on the bars when mountain biking. ( sorry, seems me and tigris posted about the same time )


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## MtnBkrBob (Aug 15, 2007)

Gentlemen - thanks for the feedback. 

Although price is not an issue, I want to be smart about it. Having never ridden at night with lights, this is all new, and I’d hate to spend a ton only to find out that I don’t like riding at night. But at the same time, don’t want to wrap a 6k bike around a tree. Or more importantly, wrap me around a tree…

Price point is $250ish. Intent is to ride gnarly, root-filled, deep woods single track. Must be rugged enough to survive aggressive single-track. Prefer handlebar mounted, but sounds like I need both handlebar and helmet. 2 hr capacity. 

I’ll surf around. 

Thanks
Bob


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ituo xp2 or xp3, glowworm x2 or xs are good ones. Gemini isbt bad but not sure how band mounts would do in trails that rough.

The issue with multiple lights isn't just its easier to see around corners and such with a helmet light but it's a very bad idea to go out with just one light. Many things could happen that takes out a light (crash mainly) and if your only on one light, your stuck in the pitch black. So always a good idea for safety to have 2 even if you only ride with one and carry the spare in your pack.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

MtnBkrBob said:


> Gentlemen - thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Although price is not an issue, I want to be smart about it. Having never ridden at night with lights, this is all new, and I'd hate to spend a ton only to find out that I don't like riding at night. But at the same time, don't want to wrap a 6k bike around a tree. Or more importantly, wrap me around a tree&#8230;
> 
> ...


If you want the best MTB "night ride" experience you need two lights but you know that. Your price range is doable. I recommended buying at least one lamp from one of the dealers that show ads on MTBR. I also recommend buying two lamps that use neutral white emitters as the NW emitters add detail to natural terrain better than cooler emitters. _ I figure you can afford one good lamp and one cheaper lamp._ I can think of many combinations that would work but keeping within your price range might be hard.

One example; buy a refurbished Gloworm X2 ( ordered with NW emitters ) full kit and let that be your bar lamp. Then you could order a cheaper lamp head from Kaidomain and one of their ( very affordable ) Panasonic battery packs and then use that on the helmet. If you order one lamp full kit you should get an extension cord for the helmet which you will need and a charger which should be able to charge both batteries. You will also need a helmet mount. Kaidomain sells those for cheap too. ( warning; don't buy from ebay although Amazon has some interesting options ).

Example two; Wiz XP2 or XP3 kit for the helmet. ( recommend XP3), than buy something like the BT40S kit from Gearbest and use that on the bars. Both use NW emitters. If you buy both with kit you get good batteries and have all the necessary mounts and extensions. These are just ideas I'm throwing out there for you to think about. ( note; BT40S kit is on sale for $33 at Gearbest right now. That is one heck of a deal. These will sell quickly so if you want one DON'T delay )


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

MtnBkrBob said:


> Gentlemen - thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Although price is not an issue, I want to be smart about it. Having never ridden at night with lights, this is all new, and I'd hate to spend a ton only to find out that I don't like riding at night. But at the same time, don't want to wrap a 6k bike around a tree. Or more importantly, wrap me around a tree&#8230;
> 
> ...


 My advice would be get something you can count on (quality) to do the job right with output tint and run time. Your clearly going to be pushing night time riding limits based on your description of trails you ride. 1st recommendation would be the Ituo XP-2/XP-3,,, guys who know a ton about good lights on this forum are all raving about these new products. Cost will be approx $375 so more than you want to spend but if you deside night riding is not for you,,, you will have no trouble recouping most of your cost selling them on classifieds.

2nd choice would be the refurbished GloWorm products and as already mentioned get them with the neutral tint leds. Very good quality although the UI needs work.


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## MtnBkrBob (Aug 15, 2007)

thanks for the info. just looked at ituolights web site. they are out of both XP2 and XP3 kits... was going to buy 1 of each.


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## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

For handle bars, I bought a pack of these, Duracell 3-pack LED Flashlight 350 Lumens

And these https://www.amazon.com/ChineOn-Cycl...sr=8-1&keywords=flash+light+mount+for+bicycle

have not bought a helmet light yet, every time I have ridden at night it was with a friend that leads, and he has enough light on his bike to land the space shuttle.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

MtnBkrBob said:


> thanks for the info. just looked at ituolights web site. they are out of both XP2 and XP3 kits... was going to buy 1 of each.


 Did you find out when the next batch will be in stock? If it 's going to be a while go to action-led-lights.com and see if they have any refurbished XS's ans X-2's. Go that rout. Option three,,, and only if you riding temps are not hot would be the Gemini products also on action-led-lights website.


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## MtnBkrBob (Aug 15, 2007)

indebt said:


> Did you find out when the next batch will be in stock? If it 's going to be a while go to action-led-lights.com and see if they have any refurbished XS's ans X-2's. Go that rout. Option three,,, and only if you riding temps are not hot would be the Gemini products also on action-led-lights website.


Didn't look for a "due-in" date. No rush. Will use time to get smarter on lighting options.

No refurb. Want new. Hot? Heat index was 107 on the road bike yesterday.

Looking for max flexibility and convenience.

Mount 2 lights (XP2 & XP3) for solo hard core mtn biking (tight woods single track).

Mount 1 light (XP3) on road bike for solo road rides.

Mount 1 light (XP3) on my mtn bike and 1 light (XP2) on my wife's mtn bike for slow trail rides.

Mount 1 light (XP3) on my foo foo bike and 1 light (XP2) on my wife's foo foo bike for slow foo foo bike rides around town.

Maybe even mount on motorcycle helmet for adventure bike rides (though not sure what a bug would do to the lens at 65 mph).


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I know Ituo is doing a sale on the new lights, they were allowing for backorders so people can grab the discounts even out of stock (started as pre-order). 

Glowworm lights are rather nice too but I get the "want new" thing. I bought a set of the referbs, light heads only, just to have a get of glowworm lights. Ituo has definitely got the bang for buck right now though and those have been my lights for everything right now. Hard to beat.


Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

MtnBkrBob said:


> Didn't look for a "due-in" date. No rush. Will use time to get smarter on lighting options.
> 
> No refurb. Want new. Hot? Heat index was 107 on the road bike yesterday.
> 
> ...


 That heat rules out the Gemini products. I still believe Ituo is the way to go,, maybe confirm the ETA and if it's not a long wait, make your purchase now.

The refurbished Gloworm products based on many purchased by members on this forum are in new condition. action-led-lights i believe sell them will the same full warranty as the new ones and you save a bunch of $$.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

MtnBkrBob said:


> Didn't look for a "due-in" date. No rush. Will use time to get smarter on lighting options.
> 
> No refurb. Want new. Hot? Heat index was 107 on the road bike yesterday.
> 
> ...


I ride in similar temperatures, own Gemini's (older cooler running versions)/Gloworms (X2 & XS)/Ituo's (Wiz20, XP2, XP3) and can tell you I get the best performance from my Ituo lights in the heat. Sounds like you have things pretty sorted out on how your going to use the lights and while both the XP2 & 3 are serious overkill on Foo Foo bikes these lights are very adjustable and can do pretty much anything. My one suggestion is you might want to consider just getting 2 XP3 lights. Price difference is small and while I like the XP2 with some floodier optics on the bar/XP3 helmet combo when I use the XP2 on the helmet instead it is over powered by the XP3 on the bar. Nothing wrong with the XP2 it is just less awesome than the XP3 and I estimate 2 XP3 would make a better balanced combo.

IMO Optics should handle a bug @ 65 mph just fine (other than the mess).
Mole


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

MtnBkrBob said:


> Didn't look for a "due-in" date. No rush. Will use time to get smarter on lighting options.
> 
> No refurb. Want new. Hot? Heat index was 107 on the road bike yesterday.
> 
> ...


I like the way you're thinking it through. You might throw a Wiz20 into the mix for road use. Iirc, it has the same output as the XP2, and the hooded bezel lends itself to the road. I bought a spare mount to make swapping between bikes simple. No remote or power cord to mess with; just click & go. That may be important for your wife.

The 20's mount is robust, but I'm not sure how it would hold up on the trail - others here can speak to that. Since all of the Ituo lights use the same batteries, you can order one without cells to save some money. Btw, ordering spare optics at the same time is a good idea.

An XP3 might be very nice on a motorcycle helmet while off-road. It probably wouldn't be helpful when riding through dust, but it'd allow you to have a better view off the trail. I'm not sure about how you'd route the remote switch, though. I doubt you'd want it on your helmet, so you may have to add some wire to get it on the bar.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

> flat said:
> 
> 
> > I like the way you're thinking it through. You might throw a Wiz20 into the mix for road use. Iirc, it has the same output as the XP2, and the hooded bezel lends itself to the road. I bought a spare mount to make swapping between bikes simple. No remote or power cord to mess with; just click & go. That may be important for your wife.
> ...


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

I use a 350 handlebar back up light... Only will use it if main light fails.

Main light is 1400, it has 4 settings/modes and is plenty bright enough...

Brand is Sanguan ^^ takes forever (18± hours) to run down on two lower settings/modes.

Sent from my kltedv using Tapatalk


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

MRMOLE said:


> > Can't say enough good things about the Wiz20 but while its claimed output is the same as the XP2 it only produces about 75% according to my light-meter. Power more than adequate for its intended purpose and fine for mtn. biking too (I don't care for the extra weight on the bar though). Anything else nice you have to say about this light I'll probably agree with. I think it's the nicest overall finished light in the Ituo line. Very good point about the convenience and ease of use (it's just a nice experience using this light). OK I'm done (but I do love my Wiz20!!!).
> > Mole
> 
> 
> Good to know about the difference in actual output. Any ideas why?


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

flat said:


> MRMOLE said:
> 
> 
> > Good to know about the difference in actual output. Any ideas why?
> ...


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Actually they just never dropped the wiz20 rating after independent sphere results were in. Guessing cause they had everything made up, so a huge loss to change. But we know it's right about 1400 lumens actual so not that far off. But the xp2 pushes just under 1600 lumens actual so there would be the difference mole sees.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Makes sense, guys. I'm sure the mass of the Wiz20 case is higher than the XP2, but Ituo may have been conservative about dumping too much heat into the batteries, too.


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## Dirt Road (Feb 6, 2016)

Xp3 is the hot light of the year no doubt. But the wiz20 is a great commuter light that can be used for trail as well. I wouldn't be inclined to bash rock gardens or launch jumps with it, but it's a good solid light that can do it all. throw the 25d optics in and it's a great bar light. It's just not in the xp3 class /but not many lights are.


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## nbritton (Jul 26, 2016)

Fenix BC30 bike light and HP25R headlamp, 2,200 lumens continuous and 2,800 lumens burst. Uses industry standard 18650 lithium-ion cells. $144 at fenixlighting.com with coupon code newmember20. See my review here:

http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-night...hp25r-headlamp-2-800-lumens-$144-1020114.html

Additional reviews:

https://www.bikelightdatabase.com/fenix/bc30/

Review: Fenix BC30 - Mtbr.com

Whatever light you get I recommend you get something with user swappable 18650 batteries. This allows you to have multiple sets of batteries in rotation so that your light is always ready to go with a full charge. Being able to swap out the batteries effectively gives the lights unlimited runtime, and this is perfect for bikepacking with the BC30 because it has a detachable quick release mount that allows it to also be used as a handheld 1,200 lumen flashlight.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

The ituo wiz20 does the same with 1400 actual full time lumens, programmable output levels and qr mount. Plus changeable optics. Fenix are good lights but overpriced for what you get compared to other lights these days. And I hated the bc30r once I got my wiz20. BC30 might be a bit better than the bc30r at least. Fenix does have an interest beam pattern for commuting use though, makes for a pretty slick pattern on the road.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## nbritton (Jul 26, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> The ituo wiz20 does the same with 1400 actual full time lumens, programmable output levels and qr mount. Plus changeable optics. Fenix are good lights but overpriced for what you get compared to other lights these days. And I hated the bc30r once I got my wiz20. BC30 might be a bit better than the bc30r at least.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Interesting, I did not realize that light existed since it's not in the Bike Light Database. This light is very similar to the Fenix BC30. Both are the same price ($80). The only major difference is it has slightly more continuous lumens because it uses a Cree XM-L2 U3. If you are also using a headlamp such as the HP25R I doubt you will even notice the extra 200 continuous lumens. It's already so bright at 2,200 lumens that you will blind anyone who crosses your path, in fact I run the bike light at 500 lumen and headlamp at 350 lumen (flood) on the city bike path when others are around because I'm worried that higher powers could potentially damage people's retinas. I accidentally blasted my eyes at full power for just a split second and it blinded me for a couple minutes because it's like looking into a laser.

Also I'm not sure if the wiz20 has it, but the BR30 has a dual beam reflector which causes the light to flood the path directly in front of you and also throw it out way down the path. It's a good blend of floodlight and spotlight qualities.

Additionally, the BR30 is optimized for use with unprotected 18650 cells. It will automatically adjust the light output mode to a dimmer setting when the batteries begin to run low to maximize runtime so you have time to get to a safe place, and it will automatically turn itself off if necessary to prevent the batteries from damaging themselves due to under-voltage.

If you want maximum lumens, then take a look at this 7 LED beast:
9800LM 7 x C XM L2 LED Temperature Control IPX4 Waterproof LED Bicycle Light + With 6*18650 Rechargeable Battery-in Bicycle Light from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Wiz20 literally does all that. $100 includes 2 3200mah 18650 protected CES, USB charging, instead of a dual beam optic it has user changeable optics to decide on the beam pattern you want for whatever use. All the same battery protection functions and so on.

It's not a big upgrade over the bc30r but to me the easy to change optics, programmable driver modes and USB charging while still being quick to change 18650 cells is why I like it better.

Btw that max lumen thing is lucky to put out 2000 lumens, lupine has that covered though.

I never even thought bike light database was a serious website, guess I'll need to check out what else is out there to keep feeding my need for MORE LIGHTS that I don't need and will hardly use lol. I have issues 

But that website is missing A LOT of bike light companies. Xeccon. Glowworm, Gemini. Don't think I saw lupine, trialled or a lot of others. Seems they only cover brands that sponsor their blog/reviews.

I have seen the headlamp before, pretty nice little unit. Not my speed for trail riding but I could see a million other uses that would be awesome for. Been looking for a good headlamp that wasn't insanely expensive or insanely cheap. May have to check that out.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

tigris99 said:


> The ituo wiz20 does the same with 1400 actual full time lumens, programmable output levels and qr mount. Plus changeable optics.


Wow, it's available with prime shipping on Amazon, is that new?
ITUO Wiz20 USB rechargeable 1500lm neutral white, 2x18650 (no tax in Cal)


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## nbritton (Jul 26, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> I have seen the headlamp before, pretty nice little unit. Not my speed for trail riding but I could see a million other uses that would be awesome for.


The headlamp is great for trail riding, it lets you look ahead on winding paths, see around corners and switchbacks, look from side to side, and look up and down hills, all while keeping your main light shining directly in front of you. It helps to eliminate shadows, and if you can dial in the bike light and headlamp to converge at the same point on the horizon it can let you see really far. Tonight and I was able to see all the way across a 500 foot long bridge.

2,200 lumens is enough light to travel at 30 mph and not be worried about seeing far enough ahead to come to a controlled stop if something gets in your way.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I have lights I mount on my helmets, that's no issue there. Just looks nice for the other things I could really use a regular headlamp for.

As for the wiz20 on Amazon, been like that for some time. Their website has free shipping that I would gather is around the same time frame and free too. But like most lights, can get them on Amazon, some prime, some not.l

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

patski said:


> Wow, it's available with prime shipping on Amazon, is that new?
> ITUO Wiz20 USB rechargeable 1500lm neutral white, 2x18650 (no tax in Cal)


Ituo Lights also throws in the wider optics for free at the same price.

https://www.ituolights.com/collecti...ite-led-bike-light-2x-3200mah-18650-batteries


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## lemke (Feb 13, 2015)

I run a Gloworm XS on the bars, and an X2 on my helmet with Kaidomain Panasonic battery packs. The XS is $125 and includes an aluminum bar mount, two additional lenses, extension cable, and quick release mount. The X2 I bought refurbished for $65, and came with a quick release mount. The Kaidomain battery packs are $29.23 shipped for the 4 cell, and $18.40 for the 2 cell. Best bang for the buck for quality lights and batteries I have found.


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## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

Doesn't anybody like the Magic Shine lights anymore? I still think they are the highest lumens per $ & per gram. I have 2 of them. Great quality & features.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I don't think their bad lights, but years ago they used to exaggerate their lumens big time and of coarse battery's and chargers back then were not good. Then they improved quality control, started including better battery's and, advertising honest lumens. Slowly they started getting a little respect from us light nerds. But this year MS is back to their old ways advertising outputs that are no where near actual. Most of us don't like that.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Anymore there are better lights out there for the money or get big jumps in quality and performance for a few bucks more.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Action LED Lights (Nov 11, 2011)

asinchaos,

If you want to give me a call I'm sure we can come up with a solution that will fit your needs and budget.
For a low budget we still have stock of the original Magicshine MJ-808 (now with CREE XM-L2's) and MJ-872. For the dollar their hard to beat. Their now only $69.95 and $99.95. Other than the hick-up with the batteries 10 years ago they have been very reliable. I've got several customers with the original SSC-P7 versions that are still going strong with regular use since 2005. 2 MJ-808's (one with a wide angle lens on the bar) make a good base set for under $150. If you can spend a little more we can probably come up with some refurb Gloworm lights that will really fill the bill.
Someone expressed concern about an O-ring mount for MTB use. Most lights are now so light weight that it's really not a problem. A wrap of friction tape on the bar will really make sure it stays put.


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## lemke (Feb 13, 2015)

The customer support at "Action LED Lights" is impeccable.


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## Mentor (Aug 14, 2015)

MtnBkrBob said:


> Although price is not an issue, I want to be smart about it. Having never ridden at night with lights, this is all new, and I'd hate to spend a ton only to find out that I don't like riding at night. But at the same time, don't want to wrap a 6k bike around a tree. Or more importantly, wrap me around a tree&#8230;


One non-gear related word of advice: riding at night, especially solo, can take some getting used to. There is a certain "creep factor" that one feels at first. If you get this feeling, persevere. It fades rapidly with experience, and eventually you may come to enjoy night rides even more so than daylight rides.


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## lemke (Feb 13, 2015)

I LOVE trail riding at night... very therapeutic for me. Usually there are very few other riders, so it's just me and usually a buddy, and a few critters.

On the other hand, we have a group that does a weekly night ride throughout downtown Dallas. While the traffic is minimal at night, it is imperative you have lights so you are very visible.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I get the creep factor riding trails solo. Not on pavement. It takes time and the creepy feeling usually goes away in the first couple minutes of a ride.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Battle the creep factor often as i ride mostly solo at night and lots around here to be concerned about. A main reason for all my light output. But once the ride starts it does mellow out, other than the times there are run ins.


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## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

tigris99 said:


> I get the creep factor riding trails solo. Not on pavement. It takes time and the creepy feeling usually goes away in the first couple minutes of a ride.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Last fall I had a bout of the creeps. I was riding along at night marking a little used trail for a group doing maintenance the next day. I would stop every so often & tie a ribbon. I was almost done, stopped to tie one, & heard the trailing end of a hoot or a howl. Not sure if it was an owl or coyote, but it wasn't far away. I had planned on riding another 5 miles, but instead tied the last marker & headed back the way I came. Haven't ridden alone at night since. Don't expect I will.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

If solo night riding gives someone the creeps, I recommend against solo backpacking. Lots of things go bump in the night, but I'm more concerned with humans than the other wildlife.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Thankfully here humans are of minimal concern. Skunks and coyotes on the other hand... Oh and coming flying up on deer standing in the trail.

I love night riding, solo or not. Just solo I have to get past the creepy feeling (especially one trail set that is in a park that's well known for being haunted).

But 99% of the time I carry a knife with me anyway, just in case. More for peace of mind than anything.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

I'm unsure of its effect on a focused, non-terminal, repeating phantasm, or a Class Five full roaming vapor, but pepper spray would likely be of more use for nasty critters and ne'er-do-wells.

Of course, insanely bright light can gain you a few seconds of pause, too. :eekster:


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## nbritton (Jul 26, 2016)




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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

bright lights on flash mode does wonder for the critters as well as simply making loud roaring noises. pepper spray I could see being helpful when the coyotes decide to get a bit too curious. As for the human type, well I have my way of dealing with that should it ever arise. Things have been getting interesting not too far from me. Though not to the extent my wife thinks we need to go (conceal carry) but enough for the first time ever I have a baseball bat by the bedroom door.


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## nbritton (Jul 26, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> Things have been getting interesting not too far from me. Though not to the extent my wife thinks we need to go (conceal carry) but enough for the first time ever I have a baseball bat by the bedroom door.


Beretta 1301 Tactical with Federal Reduced Recoil #4 Buckshot.


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## flat (Jul 31, 2016)

Omni Consumer Products Enforcement Droid Series 209 with twin Cobra cannons and Hellfire missiles.






I win. Or not. I don't care.

I think the world can survive with one less gun nut thread.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

tigris99 said:


> bright lights on flash mode does wonder for the critters as well as simply making loud roaring noises. pepper spray I could see being helpful when the coyotes decide to get a bit too curious. As for the human type, well I have my way of dealing with that should it ever arise. Things have been getting interesting not too far from me. Though not to the extent my wife thinks we need to go (conceal carry) but enough for the first time ever I have a baseball bat by the bedroom door.


 Didn't realize you were such a tough guy Tig lol. Hopefully what ever is going on close by does NOT pose any threat to your family.

I concur with your method and find with the Coyote's, wolves, skunks,black bears, brown bears, bob cats and mountain lions around here, that human noise via conversation between riders, clearing my throat or coughing when riding solo seems to have the best result. I have blasted an air horn at a huge bear that appeared in front of me and it didn't flinch, never used it again.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

It's not "violent". People's houses getting broke into and such. Ones doing it run when residents come home and catch them in the act. No forced entry when people are known to be in the house. One guy had a couple higher end bikes stolen. But my wife and son are home alone at night while I'm at work and I also wouldn't put it past these people to try and get into my garage.

Baseball bat is for the wife mainly, I don't want to kill anyone and I swing a bat it won't end well. But spent many years first trying diplomacy to deal with conflict which worked often (I've always been good at getting people to realize reality) but sometimes force was needed. Trained to fight so I don't have to. Being able to take multiple hits that have no effect then putting multiple people on their face in the dirt in a matter of seconds, combined with acting like a lunatic took care of the rest. Reputation spread, people left me alone except friends or family that called when they were being messed with. Me showing up put a swift end to the problems.

Since having my first child I have become insanely passive (I have my days, especially with over abundance of stupidity) except if there is a perceived threat to my family. No more diplomacy. Instill the fear of God and make sure they have a couple weeks of painful reminders (bruises, sprains etc) of what happens when you think comitting a crime is going to pay. Not to mention the corresponding jail time to go with it.

I don't believe in firearms (not to be confused with being anti-gun. Cause I'm a strong supporter of gun rights). When it comes to protection or hobby in the hands of a normal, half way responsible person it's all good. For the rest they are a cowards way out. Got a problem, grow a pair dont hide behind a trigger. I have some knives, couple swords and mainly my hands/feet. Only ever had to use my body, never a weapon so far. Plus my extreme fear of knowing how smart my kids are and how easily I figured out how to get to my father's guns as a kid, that my kids will find them if I had any in my house.

But times are rapidly changing and I am begining to think my normal ways aren't enough anymore. My wife is already to that point.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

That would be un-nerving with you at work with that stuff going on in your area. I won't get into the gun debate as i see the difference in what goes down between our two country's, but do believe they have their place. That been said, It is getting worse up here with gangs battling over drug trade.

My fighting training was just in the boxing ring thirty five years ago. Been such a small guy and having to street fight all the time this helped me out. If i could go back, i wished i had better skills for communicating. Thank god back then it was honorable to have a fair one on one with no weapons most of the time, otherwise i would have never seen twenty. 

Anyway i guess we derailed this thread pretty good (sorry OP), best to get back on track. Cheers!!


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## Corbinworks (Aug 15, 2011)

nbritton said:


> View attachment 1090389


Thats awesome!


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## TrevorJackson (Sep 22, 2015)

For UK sales - BrightBikeLights.com will be happy to discuss lights which fir your requirements - give me a call .... Trevor


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