# Learning to Manual



## Todd Cavell (Jan 24, 2016)

So, after watching a plethora of youtube videos, I've started to learn how to manual. 

I'm starting to actually get the hang of getting the front wheel off the ground. I know this because I fell backwards on the pavement without getting my feet off the pedals in time. I also fell backwards onto my feet, which leads me to my first question.

One time when I bailed the bottom of my feet smacked the ground pretty hard and sent a shooting pain up my left shin. I'm having trouble getting my feet off the pedals in time and it's probably due to the extreme grippiness of the raceface atlas pedals coupled with my 5 10 shoes. Do you think I should take some of the pins off my pedals while learning to manual?

Next question is about actually lifting the front wheel.

Even though I can get the wheel off the ground I feel like I am working really hard to get it done. When I watch other people manual it looks so effortless. I am putting all my effort into throwing my weight backwards, and when I see other people do it they are somehow able to just ease the front wheel up effortlessly. How do I make getting it up (hahahaha) that easy? Is it just a matter of getting your weight back and just easing up on the bars? I really feel like I'm working harder than I have to.

I'm riding a Kona Honzo.

It's probably hard to give sound advice without seeing a video or anything, but I appreciate any input you can give.


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## Deartist7 (Sep 28, 2014)

Phil Kmetz did a pretty good video showing a couple mistakes that might have something to with your problem. Slow connection for me now, but you can search for it like: "How to manual" or that sort of thing, it's not hard to find.


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## Dribear (Feb 3, 2016)

I've never really been good at it, and especially not really riding a bike for years it is even more difficult meow. 
But I think it is more of pulling up with your arms, while finding the happy median of how much of your weight to shift back.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Dribear said:


> I've never really been good at it, and especially not really riding a bike for years it is even more difficult meow.
> But I think it is more of pulling up with your arms, while finding the happy median of how much of your weight to shift back.


It's the opposite. Manual is about pushing the bike out in front of you, sensation similar to threshold breaking but further back and less pedal stomping. You'd roll/twist the grip a bit

There's no pulling, none.


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

mimi1885 said:


> It's the opposite. Manual is about pushing the bike out in front of you, sensation similar to threshold breaking but further back and less pedal stomping. You'd roll/twist the grip a bit
> 
> There's no pulling, none.


^ this... from attack position push out with hands and at that brief instant of almost weightless frontend, push down the pedals. sort of like pumping where the efforts are focused on the backside of the roller where you push with your arms followed by the legs. at no point should your bum go up while pushing with the legs, otherwise you'll get your frontend back down.

pulling only throws one off balance.


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## Jorgemonkey (Mar 10, 2004)

I'm in the process of learning as well. I've been able to hold a manual for about 1-2 seconds so far after a little practice. One thing I did was I've been practicing on grass. Then the times I've not gotten my feet off I've landed on the grass/dirt.


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## tylercall88 (Feb 5, 2016)

Deartist7 said:


> Phil Kmetz did a pretty good video showing a couple mistakes that might have something to with your problem. Slow connection for me now, but you can search for it like: "How to manual" or that sort of thing, it's not hard to find.


Pretty solid video with good pointers, here it is:


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

In my mind, I push the bike forward, and stand up on the pedals. The change in body geometry pulls the front end up, and the rear wheel follows as the bike rotates when I push down on the bar.

That's how I clear those 4" sticks. Still too big for the real stuff.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

spyghost said:


> ^ this... from attack position push out with hands and at that brief instant of almost weightless frontend, push down the pedals.


How far off the ground should the front wheel be at this point?


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

andytiedye said:


> How far off the ground should the front wheel be at this point?


you can pretty much control the height by controlling the push on the pedal or the movement of your bum forward


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

I meant how high is the front wheel when you start pushing with your legs?



spyghost said:


> you can pretty much control the height by controlling the push on the pedal or the movement of your bum forward


Pushing on the pedals does not raise my front wheel at all, or even slow down its inexorable return to term firma. My bum is as far back and as low as I can reach.


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## spyghost (Oct 30, 2012)

andytiedye said:


> I meant how high is the front wheel when you start pushing with your legs?
> 
> Pushing on the pedals does not raise my front wheel at all, or even slow down its inexorable return to term firma. My bum is as far back and as low as I can reach.


ah gotcha. i don't have the 'objective' measures but start transitioning to the legs at that brief instant of a weightless front end.


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## Jorgemonkey (Mar 10, 2004)

Are your arms locked out? I found when my arms were not locked I was using my arms to pull up. Granted I'm in the beginner stages of learning how to manual


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Jorgemonkey said:


> Are your arms locked out? I found when my arms were not locked I was using my arms to pull up. Granted I'm in the beginner stages of learning how to manual


Oh yes, ^this. I locked my arms as well as staying fix on lower body from hip down(my knee bends stay at fix angle) til I got better at it. Eliminate or reduce moving parts helps a lot. Now I can do whatever and seems to be able to produce a decent manual. Though I wish I can hold a sustained one across the parking lot but not anytime soon:0


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

spyghost said:


> ah gotcha. i don't have the 'objective' measures but start transitioning to the legs at that brief instant of a weightless front end.


I'm doing that, but I think the front wheel has to be up a foot or two by that point for it to work. The guys in the videos can all get the wheel up a couple of feet with just arm strength alone. Me, a few inches.

I seem to be 100% slow-twitch. I think this is the real problem, along with unfavorable frame geometry. Bikes from the 90s like my Stumpjumper M2 are notoriously hard to get the wheel up. The bikes I got since then have all been even more difficult to get the wheel up than the M2 (because they are full suspension, so it takes even more force to overcome that). Yes, I have put really short stems on my bikes, that was good for about 2 more inches compared to a long stem.



Jorgemonkey said:


> Are your arms locked out? I found when my arms were not locked I was using my arms to pull up. Granted I'm in the beginner stages of learning how to manual


Yes, and my elbows get sore after practicing this.


mimi1885 said:


> Oh yes, ^this. I locked my arms as well as staying fix on lower body from hip down(my knee bends stay at fix angle) til I got better at it. Eliminate or reduce moving parts helps a lot. Now I can do whatever and seems to be able to produce a decent manual. Though I wish I can hold a sustained one across the parking lot but not anytime soon:0


I have tried that too. No difference.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

No need to get the front wheel very high at all.
Less arms more hips.

Learn from the bear:


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## Misterg (Jul 17, 2014)

andytiedye said:


> ...I think the front wheel has to be up a foot or two by that point for it to work.


I've just figured out how to do this (in a limited way, at least): It's shifting your weight back that raises the front wheel - it comes up *as* you push with your feet, not before.



> ...The guys in the videos can all get the wheel up a couple of feet with just arm strength alone. Me, a few inches.
> 
> ...Yes, and my elbows get sore after practicing this.


It's not at all about arms. If you are getting sore elbows, I would guess that you are just throwing your upper body back. The only thing your arms should be doing is pushing (until the front wheel is right up, then they just push out and hold on).

It feels to me like I'm pushing the bike as hard as I can into the ground with my legs, and just when I'm pressing hardest, I sweep the bike forwards with arms and legs, like I'm trying to wipe my @rse with the saddle. (Having the saddle *right* down is essential).

I found it helpful to concentrate on making the 'L'shape like in this video:






It's not easy to get the right muscles to do the right thing at the right time, though. Try working through it with your bike in a stand or something, so you get the feel of the movement. When it's right, it is ridiculously smooth and effortless, but I can't achieve that on demand yet.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Here's what helped me. Our club does a Freeride classs, and they use a static hold so you can really feel the balance point for a manual. Once you feel this, it becomes so much easier to understand where you need your weight to be.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> No need to get the front wheel very high at all.
> Less arms more hips.
> 
> Learn from the bear


The bear is a big guy on a tiny BMX bike. This does show the importance of rider size and frame geometry quite clearly though. He can balance that bike just a few inches off the ground because he can easily get way behind the rear wheel. Not so easy on a mountain bike, got to get the wheel up much, much higher.



Misterg said:


> I've just figured out how to do this (in a limited way, at least): It's shifting your weight back that raises the front wheel - it comes up *as* you push with your feet, not before.
> 
> It's not at all about arms. If you are getting sore elbows, I would guess that you are just throwing your upper body back. The only thing your arms should be doing is pushing (until the front wheel is right up, then they just push out and hold on).
> 
> ...


I have been practicing that "L-shaped" thing for the past 6 months. Watched the first part of that video hundreds of times. Shifting my weight doesn't get the wheel up more than a few inches, even if I push back with all my strength. Pushing down with my feet pushes the bike down and me up. Perhaps a bike with "new geometry" would respond differently.


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

slapheadmofo said:


> No need to get the front wheel very high at all.
> Less arms more hips.
> 
> Learn from the bear:


If you have a good bedroom attack position, you will have a good manual/huck. It's all in the hips, baby.

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## Hollis Prince (Nov 17, 2015)

Do you have your seat all the way down? One thing most the videos show, and you can see in the pics above, is that your weight needs to be BEHIND the rear axle. Way back there and low enough to buzz your butt on the rear tire.


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## steelcityadv (Dec 4, 2015)

My seat is much higher than in the video. I guess I'll have to drop it a bit to try to get the hang of this


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## mattyice (Dec 31, 2015)

I think in the practical application of the manual isn't really to wheelie. It's a much different feeling (not mechanically) when you manual down a rock or a steep section. I don't ride a dropper and a lot of people don't. I think it's a good skill to have being able to work around your seatpost and you're not relying on a $300 piece of gear to do it. I say if you want to get the hang of a manual, go down a rock roller. If you're weight isn't back enough, you're gonna stuff your front. Sink or swim


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## Hollis Prince (Nov 17, 2015)

My problem is that with my seat up at XC level, when I get my weight back behind the seat, when moving back to normal position, I hang the crotch of my shorts on the saddle.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Hollis Prince said:


> Do you have your seat all the way down? One thing most the videos show, and you can see in the pics above, is that your weight needs to be BEHIND the rear axle. Way back there and low enough to buzz your butt on the rear tire.


So what do you do if you are too short to get back that far?

(and yes, my seat is ALL the way down)


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## K_W (May 6, 2015)

andytiedye said:


> So what do you do if you are too short to get back that far?
> 
> (and yes, my seat is ALL the way down)


... you may be on too big of a frame for your leg length.


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## sevenhelmet (Feb 29, 2016)

Dropper post helps... But you don't "need" it.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

andytiedye said:


> So what do you do if you are too short to get back that far?
> 
> (and yes, my seat is ALL the way down)


It may be that you are not bringing the front of the bike up far enough to get your hips into position. See the photo I posted earlier: it's like a fulcrum and you have to be an an extreme enough angle for the balance point to shift.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

formica said:


> It may be that you are not bringing the front of the bike up far enough to get your hips into position. See the photo I posted earlier: it's like a fulcrum and you have to be an an extreme enough angle for the balance point to shift.


I am quite sure that is the problem (and said as much up thread).
Of course the shorter the rider is, the higher the front wheel must get before the hips can come into play.

Same for pushing on the pedals. Only pushes the bike down (at least on "old geometry" mountain bikes). I can see how it could work If the wheel were already up a foot Or two, then pushing forward on the pedals is possible, but not when the bike is essentially level or worse (which is likely as we are usually descending when doing this)

This is why it was always seemed to be an issue of fast-twitch upper-body strength.
Obviously not a problem for you, from reading your posts in other threads.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

How much strength do you think is really required to lift up a front wheel? We're only talking a few pounds here. Strength really doesn't play into this, it's about timing and balance. I see 60 lb kids wheelie 30 lb bikes all the time.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> How much strength do you think is really required to lift up a front wheel?


When I'm on the bike?

Enough to totally bottom out the front fork and at the same time throw my weight back with enough force to get the wheel up about two feet, so that it becomes possible to do the hip thing.



slapheadmofo said:


> Strength really doesn't play into this, it's about timing and balance.


How does balance come into play if I can't even get near the balance point (wheel over 2 feet up (probably closer to 3 since its downhill)?

Pushing on the pedals pushes the bike down, no matter when I do it. This could be due to frame geometry.



slapheadmofo said:


> I see 60 lb kids wheelie 30 lb bikes all the time.


BMX or DJ bikes? Very different frame geometry allowing them to get their weight way back.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

You can't yourself no matter how strong you are. No one can. Manuals are a position/balance/timing thing, not a strength thing. Why do you need to totally bottom your fork out (which is also a weight shift, not a strength move).

If you're convinced that your bike is what's keeping you from learning, why don't you buy/borrow a cheap BMX bike? I think you'll be surprised how difficult it is even with that, certainly won't be 'easy' all of a sudden, I can attest to that.

Also, if you're learning on a hill that drops 12" in the length of a bike, you need to find somewhere a lot flatter. Personally, I would think you should learn to wheelie on an UPHILL first. Learning on a downhill starts you out at a positional disadvantage right off the bat as far as getting the front wheel up.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Practice on a very slight uphill is where I finally got the feel for it. Contrary to what andytiedye thinks, I can barely do them at all. I just understand the concept really well.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> You can't yourself no matter how strong you are. No one can.


can't ???? yourself
Something is missing from this sentence.



slapheadmofo said:


> Manuals are a position/balance/timing thing, not a strength thing. Why do you need to totally bottom your fork out (which is also a weight shift, not a strength move).


Getting my weight back as far as I can reach only unweights the front wheel by 7 pounds on level ground, even less on a downslope. Anything more than that is dependent on the force with which I throw my weight back.



slapheadmofo said:


> If you're convinced that your bike is what's keeping you from learning, why don't you buy/borrow a cheap BMX bike? I think you'll be surprised how difficult it is even with that, certainly won't be 'easy' all of a sudden, I can attest to that.


Would have to buy. Would have the advantage that the hip positions being recommended here would at least be possible on a bike like that. Disadvantages are that what I did on a BMX bike would not carry over to a mountain bike as the position recommended is not possible for me on a mountain bike, and a BMX bike would not be useful for anything else.



slapheadmofo said:


> Also, if you're learning on a hill that drops 12" in the length of a bike, you need to find somewhere a lot flatter.


It isn't that steep where I practice. More like 5".



slapheadmofo said:


> Personally, I would think you should learn to wheelie on an UPHILL first. Learning on a downhill starts you out at a positional disadvantage right off the bat as far as getting the front wheel up.


Doing that too. Wheelies up the slope, manuals down.

l get the wheel up a bit more on a wheelie, but only if I am moving at the slowest possible speed and mash the pedal as hard as I can while throwing my weight back as hard as I can and get the timing just right. Then it comes up almost a foot for about 3/4 of a second before dropping back down again.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Easy way to figure out how far back you need to be in order to get the front wheel up at certain height is to stand next to the bike, whichever side is fine. Get into an attack position, or stand up next to the handlebar( both works well) with the knees bent and one foot in front another just like you'd positioned it with the pedals, elbows bend 90*. Keep your feet plant then push the handlebar extending your arms to almost straight. You should feel the pressure on the wrapping fingers mainly middle and ring finger.

The front would come up automatically. You'd feel the correct sensation of a proper manual execution. Keep low, butt back your shoulder should be almost touching your ears. It would be a good habit forming if you'd keep your rear break cover or better yet, lightly dragged. This is a crucial move as it would help keeping the wheel from coming too high, the harder you squeeze the lever the faster your front would come down.

Here's the text from the master himself. I took several clinics with him and probably have practiced manual session at the exact spot at Alison canyon near the bottom of cholla trails.


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## Misterg (Jul 17, 2014)

andytiedye said:


> Enough to totally bottom out the front fork and at the same time throw my weight back with enough force to get the wheel up about two feet, so that it becomes possible to do the hip thing.





> Pushing on the pedals pushes the bike down, no matter when I do it. This could be due to frame geometry.


It sounds to me like you have misunderstood the manoeuver at a fundamental level. It's not like a wheelie (which is all about synchronising upper body movement and pedal power). It's a dynamic move that comes from your legs & butt (hips if you prefer). The front suspension shouldn't come anywhere near being bottomed out; Pushing on the pedals is what initiates the move, not something that comes after.

A few of things helped me:

1) Practice, and commit to memory, the two key positions

#1 as low as you can get centred over the BB with heels dropped and knees bent.
#2 Pedals at 2:00 / 8:00, legs and arms straight, butt almost resting on rear tyre

Prop the bike up on something and practice moving from #1 to #2 smoothly but quickly, using just your legs NOT your arms. Even stationary, the front wheel should start to jump off the ground.

2) Before you try the move, bounce on the pedals a few times, like you would on a trampoline (aim to get to position #1, then back to your 'ready position'). On the 3rd (or whatever) bounce, go from position #1 to position#2, rather than bouncing up again. - like you were trying to launch yourself backwards off the trampoline.

3) REALLY drop your heels. Like your toes are pointing at the sky dropped.

It boils down to carefully analysing what you are actually doing compared to the many, many videos and articles about this. If you can get a video of yourself trying, you might find it usefull. If you could post it here, I'm sure that you would get some helpfull comments.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Straightening my legs for position #2 pushes my butt up and the bike down.

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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

If you're doing things as hard as you can, you're not doing it right. It should take very little effort and strength. Its a balance thing, not strength! The jerking full strength motion will just blow out your arms, its almost the opposite of what you need to be doing.


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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

It is key to understand the technique of pushing the bars forward and how that raises the front, etc.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

bogeydog said:


> It is key to understand the technique of pushing the bars forward and how that raises the front, etc.


I am pushing the bars forward. That raises the front a few inches, no more,


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## Hollis Prince (Nov 17, 2015)

I recommend getting a coach, maybe ask someone as your lbs. Or, like a previous poster mentioned, record yourself trying to manual then post it here.
It sounds like you're cutting the corner of the "L" shape your hips should make (referencing the GMBN video here). 
With your saddle dropped all the way, throw your hips straight down, then straight back. Buzz your butt on the rear tire so you know you're low enough. 
If you've ever done a wheelie, then kicked your bike way out in front of you, while ejecting (looping out) of the back of the bike, putting your feet on the ground, THAT'S what folks are talking about pushing with your feet. Not pushing down, pushing the rear of the bike forward. 
I admit I'm not good at manuals, but I understand the mechanics of it.


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## Misterg (Jul 17, 2014)

andytiedye said:


> Straightening my legs for position #2 pushes my butt up and the bike down.


OK, so that is a problem. (It sounds like you're doing what's described at ~1:59 in that GMBN video - 'down and back up', rather than down and back).

#2 should look like the picture on page 2 of that MBA article above with the big green tick (checkmark) on it. The straighter you can get your legs WITHOUT raising your butt, the further back your butt will be.

You need to find a way to keep your butt down as you go from #1 to #2. It's your butt (and centre of gravity) going backwards that shoots the bike out forwards and up (once your arms lock out - don't think about pushing with your arms, your legs need to do the work).


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Misterg said:


> OK, so that is a problem. (It sounds like you're doing what's described at ~1:59 in that GMBN video - 'down and back up', rather than down and back).
> 
> #2 should look like the picture on page 2 of that MBA article above with the big green tick (checkmark) on it.


That is what I am doing, which necessitates keeping my legs bent (as they are in the picture you referenced)



Misterg said:


> The straighter you can get your legs WITHOUT raising your butt, the further back your butt will be.


l don't get my butt back nearly as far as that (or the guys in the videos) because I am short and the chainstays are long. I tried reversing the stem to get back a bit further, but my knees hit the handlebars.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

andytiedye said:


> l don't get my butt back nearly as far as that (or the guys in the videos) because I am short and the chainstays are long. I tried reversing the stem to get back a bit further, but my knees hit the handlebars.


I don't think it's your height, legs or arms length. That said, getting a DJ bike or box would definitely makes things easier. Like one said, a little kid can manual bmx all day, her size ratio to the bike is still smaller than short adult riders on mountain bike.

How's your low speed handling skills, good with track stand? If not speed is your friend. Everything on two wheels gets easier when you have good speed, say jogging pace. Many people I see trying seem to do it at a walking pace.

Get yourself a padded bomber shorts and protective gears, and set goal to land 10 consecutive times on your a$$ trying to get your butt back over the rear axle. It would be difficult to do, before you know it, you'd be dealing with staying balance on the rear wheel than where to plant your butt. Be committed.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Hollis Prince said:


> I recommend getting a coach, maybe ask someone as your lbs. Or, like a previous poster mentioned, record yourself trying to manual then post it here.
> It sounds like you're cutting the corner of the "L" shape your hips should make (referencing the GMBN video here).


I did video it, it really Is L-shaped, but it wouldn't be if I push much with my legs. That mostly pushes my ass up & the bike down. Can't get back far enough to push forward much.



Hollis Prince said:


> With your saddle dropped all the way, throw your hips straight down, then straight back. Buzz your butt on the rear tire so you know you're low enough.


Doing that. Gets the front wheel up about 4".



Hollis Prince said:


> If you've ever done a wheelie, then kicked your bike way out in front of you, while ejecting (looping out) of the back of the bike, putting your feet on the ground.


Not able to loop out doing a wheelie. I get the front wheel up about 10-12" if I start at the slowest possible speed and get the timing just right.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

andytiedye said:


> Would have the advantage that the hip positions being recommended here would at least be possible on a bike like that. Disadvantages are that what I did on a BMX bike would not carry over to a mountain bike as the position recommended is not possible for me on a mountain bike, and a BMX bike would not be useful for anything else.


Judging from your many responses on this subject, a BMX bike is likely your best, if not only, solution to removing the equipment excuse with regard to why you cannot seem to learn to manual. But again, don't think you're gonna jump on a 20" and all of a sudden be a king at it. People seem to underestimate how hard it is to do well.

Skills DO transfer from bike to bike, maybe not perfectly, but definitely. And BMX bikes are great for learning many other MTB basics such as pumping, jumping, bunny-hopping, bike-body separation, cornering, etc. They teach you to get your lazy ass out of the saddle and move around a bike. It's no coincidence that when you look at many if not most of the top names in MTB, one thing you'll notice they have in common is a background in BMX.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

slapheadmofo said:


> Judging from your many responses on this subject, a BMX bike is likely your best, if not only, solution to removing the equipment excuse with regard to why you cannot seem to learn to manual. But again, don't think you're gonna jump on a 20" and all of a sudden be a king at it. People seem to underestimate how hard it is to do well.
> 
> Skills DO transfer from bike to bike, maybe not perfectly, but definitely. And BMX bikes are great for learning many other MTB basics such as pumping, jumping, bunny-hopping, bike-body separation, cornering, etc. They teach you to get your lazy ass out of the saddle and move around a bike. It's no coincidence that when you look at many if not most of the top names in MTB, one thing you'll notice they have in common is a background in BMX.


^this.

Skills do transfer from fast reaction small bike to slow reaction mtb, but not as much the other way around.


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## trailchong (Mar 21, 2016)

Are you able to post the video you took of yourself trying? That's probably the best way to receive proper advice.


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## Hollis Prince (Nov 17, 2015)

> Not able to loop out doing a wheelie. I get the front wheel up about 10-12" if I start at the slowest possible speed and get the timing just right.


If you're not able to wheelie, at least several pedal strokes worth, I seriously doubt you'll be able to manual. Learn to wheelie first. 
You can't loop out wheelie-ing? 
I ask this in all seriousness, and you don't have to answer, just think about it: are you afraid of falling off the back of the bike and you are blocking yourself from committing? 
When I just started out skateboarding I would do this with kickflips.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Hollis Prince said:


> are you afraid of falling off the back of the bike and you are blocking yourself from committing?


Good point. 
You have to learn where the the point of no return is well, and there's only one way to do that - get off the back a few thousand times. If you don't trust your reactions enough to trust yourself to walk away from it (at least mostly), practice looping the bike out on purpose from a standstill; just a hard pedal stroke and a foot down basically and get comfortable with the motion. Build a little muscle memory.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

l have tried to do that many times. I don't generate enough torque to loop out, even at the slowest possible speed, unless going up a VERY steep hill, and I would not want to practice this there. (On such hills I always have a couple of fingers on the rear brake).

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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

If you've got your mind set on learning manuals and you're convinced you've got the wrong tool for the job, get a better tool.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

At the end of the day, manuals and wheelies are like getting airtime. They are not for everyone, the latter is definitely true with me, I'm like a dead sailor in the air no matter how many time I try to fly, I just don't have it. If I accidentally catch some airtime I'd twist the handlebar in a fashionable way but never intentional. 

A friend who took the clinic with me still at the beginner's stage as he knows the mechanics of the move but only give half the effort every time out of fear, it truly not for him. I told him to stop practicing for a few weeks then give it up altogether. Hope it's not your case.


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## Scpage (Aug 21, 2015)

Beginning stages of learning to manual myself. I did learn the wheelie and coaster first which I think helps. Go Re-read the part about shoulders almost touching ears...I'm betting if you video yourself you are not as far back and hips as low as you might think. That was indeed my case...now I shrug with my shoulders which automatically gets my hips low, feet up, butt just above the tire with good pivot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

In your granny gear you should be able to gently lean back and dump yourself backwards onto the ground doing a wheelie. You have to really moderate your power to not dump yourself. If this isn't the case, you're jerking the bars!

Skip manuals for now until you can wheelie. You can wheelie even on a long road bike. Its not about power.


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## Hollis Prince (Nov 17, 2015)

Yeah, I don't know what's going on here. We need a video or something.


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## banditpowdercoat (Aug 13, 2015)

I'm slowly getting it I think. Short uncontrolled height. But shifting weight back I can feel the front unweighted and can kinda hop it around. I can get the wheel up now without "pulling" up on the bars. But keeping the balance point is the trick. Just mild sprained my finger tonight on a spill trying it 


Sent from my iPhone while my Heli plays with the gophers


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

mimi1885 said:


> A friend who took the clinic with me still at the beginner's stage as he knows the mechanics of the move but only give half the effort every time out of fear


Did he tell you that, or did you conclude that he wasn't really trying based on the result?


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

One Pivot said:


> In your granny gear you should be able to gently lean back and dump yourself backwards onto the ground doing a wheelie. You have to really moderate your power to not dump yourself. If this isn't the case, you're jerking the bars!
> 
> Skip manuals for now until you can wheelie. You can wheelie even on a long road bike. Its not about power.


Gently doesn't even get the front wheel off the ground. Leaning back HARD (arms fully extended) and mashing the pedals as hard as possible gets me about 12" if my timing is perfect. I'm not "jerking" the handlebars.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I think it's time to stop overanalyzing things and either 
A) Get a different bike.
B) Give up.

You'll definitely never learn by repeatedly explaining online why there's no way you can do it on your bike. As a great man once said, **** or get off the pot.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

andytiedye said:


> Did he tell you that, or did you conclude that he wasn't really trying based on the result?


Of course he told me, we were practicing together for months. We know it's not easy, many who have successfully done it were pitching in their experience and trigger words, I'm still learning, like you I want to be able to manual off to the sunset too.

Check out Bikeskills.com and book a clinic with Joe Lawwill then you'll know for the fact if it's physically impossible or you just have to try harder. It's not your size, I took the clinic with Tara Llanes(before the accident), and guess coach Jared Rando one tall one short, and she did the manual just fine with short arms and legs and weight less than 100lbs.

This is not a personal attack, what you are going through, most of us had to go through the same, except for some fearless 10 year old or grown up with the same attitude, they have never experienced this struggle


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

mimi1885 said:


> Check out Bikeskills.com and book a clinic with Joe Lawwill


Are you sure Joe Lawwill is still working for them?
He is listed as "alumni" on the bikeskills. com website. 
The only clinics on the schedule at this time are in Portland (and not yet bookable).
They say their clinics are for intermediate level riders (which puzzles me a bit, since intermediate riders would be able to do these things already).



mimi1885 said:


> then you'll know for the fact if it's physically impossible or you just have to try harder.


How would a coach make such a determination? And if they think that I'm not trying hard enough, how do I try harder when I am already using all my strength?


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

andytiedye said:


> Are you sure Joe Lawwill is still working for them?
> He is listed as "alumni" on the bikeskills. com website.
> The only clinics on the schedule at this time are in Portland (and not yet bookable).
> They say their clinics are for intermediate level riders (which puzzles me a bit, since intermediate riders would be able to do these things already).
> ...


Clearly we are not qualify to help you as you've answered all of our suggestions. Why don't you stop practicing it for a few weeks...


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## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

andytiedye said:


> Gently doesn't even get the front wheel off the ground. Leaning back HARD (arms fully extended) and mashing the pedals as hard as possible gets me about 12" if my timing is perfect. I'm not "jerking" the handlebars.


That's weird. I'd loop out from a dead stop doing that.

My problem with wheelies and manuals is I use my arms too much, even when I think I'm not. This causes the fork to come up to one side or the other and makes maintaining balance that much more difficult.

Sometimes, it helps to walk away from it for a while. Try picking it back up in a month or two and see if something was "subconsciously" learned during the hiatus.


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## Hollis Prince (Nov 17, 2015)

For me, the manual is scarier than a wheelie(I can wheelie ok) because my body position in a manual is such that if I loop out its very difficult to get my feet on the ground fast enough. I pretty much have to rely on the rear brake. 
For me that's one of the things that makes the manual difficult to learn. 
I can catch myself just fine looping out from a wheelie.


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Hollis Prince said:


> For me, the manual is scarier than a wheelie(I can wheelie ok) because my body position in a manual is such that if I loop out its very difficult to get my feet on the ground fast enough. I pretty much have to rely on the rear brake.
> For me that's one of the things that makes the manual difficult to learn.
> I can catch myself just fine looping out from a wheelie.


That's why I emphasized on dragging rear brake before you even successfully pull one off. It would be automatic.


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## rentalrider (Apr 23, 2016)

That's impressive!
edit: that was supposed to be referring to the bear doing a manual :madman:


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## Eisenpforte (Apr 3, 2016)

I am a beginner too and following the advice in this thread has me getting the front wheel up pretty effortlessly. I can't balance for long yet, but I'm getting up there. Thanks.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> I think it's time to stop overanalyzing things


What can I say? I'm an engineer.



slapheadmofo said:


> A) Get a different bike.


I'm open to that. Would have to be something that will work on the trails, including going up steep hills. A BMX bike wouldn't be of much use around here.

Any suggestions for a full-suspension bike that is easy to wheelie and manual, climbs well, and has a standover height under 28"?



slapheadmofo said:


> B) Give up.


It may come to that, but I'd like to at least know WHY it is impossible first.



mimi1885 said:


> Clearly we are not qualify to help you as you've answered all of our suggestions.


I do appreciate all the suggestions, even though my effort continue to fail. I figure I at least owe you the courtesy of a response.

The schedule of skill clinics has changed on their site. Both still in Portland (14 hours away), but now they are about "flow" and make no mention of wheelies or manuals. They say these are for ''experienced to intermediate" riders.

Hopefully they will have some in northern California at some point, and at a level appropriate for me.



hdparrish said:


> That's weird. I'd loop out from a dead stop doing that.


I'm going a but under 2 mph, not quite a dead stop, but as slow as possible.



hdparrish said:


> My problem with wheelies and manuals is I use my arms too much, even when I think I'm not. This causes the fork to come up to one side or the other and makes maintaining balance that much more difficult.


I have to use my arms a lot to get the small amount of lift that I do, otherwise the wheel ones back down even faster. I am pushing, not pulling though. Arms remain fully extended.



Eisenpforte said:


> I am a beginner too and following the advice in this thread has me getting the front wheel up pretty effortlessly.


I am awed at how fast some people are able to learn to do that.


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## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

andytiedye said:


> I'm going a but under 2 mph, not quite a dead stop, but as slow as possible.
> 
> I have to use my arms a lot to get the small amount of lift that I do, otherwise the wheel ones back down even faster. I am pushing, not pulling though. Arms remain fully extended.


Wheelies are about weight and torque. In my 32T chainring, in the 36T rear cog, and with the pedal of my "best leg" high, if I pedal hard and lean back, the front wheel will come flying up and I will loop out if I'm not careful.

Getting the wheel up should be the easy part, at least for a wheelie. And, believe me, I suck at this. I am not trying to rip on you or otherwise condescend. I have no natural inclination with wheelies, manuals, rideoffs, jumps, or anything technical.

Are you on platform pedals? Take your bike to a park or a wide-open grassy field. Wear a helmet. Get your best foot high and SURGE while also leaning back. That front wheel will come flying up.

The art is learning how to hold it. But getting the wheel up should be easy.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

Focus on pushing the bike in front of you with your legs, instead of getting your weight back. You end up in the same position but get there a different way, this force is what will bring the front end up. 

Its like a leg/hip snap from a bent leg to a straighter leg. Think: using force applied through my pedals, I am trying to push the rear wheel up under me.


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## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

LaXCarp: the "pushing the bike in front of you with your legs" tip is for a manual, right?

I know the thread began with questions on how to manual, but some of the discussion has involved getting andy to wheelie. That's why I mentioned leaning back while he surges with his pedals.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but it seems like it'd be hard to push the bike with the pedals while also pedaling at the same time? That works for manuals but you're not pedaling (or seated) when manualing.


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

hdparrish said:


> LaXCarp: the "pushing the bike in front of you with your legs" tip is for a manual, right?
> 
> I know the thread began with questions on how to manual, but some of the discussion has involved getting andy to wheelie. That's why I mentioned leaning back while he surges with his pedals.


Yes, advice on manualing.


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## hdparrish (Jan 24, 2008)

LoL OK. Hope I haven't made this even more confusing for Andy. (Sorry!)


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

hdparrish said:


> Wheelies are about weight and torque. In my 32T chainring, in the 36T rear cog, and with the pedal of my "best leg" high, if I pedal hard and lean back, the front wheel will come flying up and I will loop out if I'm not careful.
> 
> Getting the wheel up should be the easy part, at least for a wheelie....
> 
> Are you on platform pedals? Take your bike to a park or a wide-open grassy field. Wear a helmet. Get your best foot high and SURGE while also leaning back. That front wheel will come flying up.


It comes up several inches for about half a second when I do that.
I can get a few more inches and maybe another quarter second by pushing up with my arms (keeping them fully extended) at EXACTLY the same time.



LaXCarp said:


> Focus on pushing the bike in front of you with your legs, instead of getting your weight back. You end up in the same position but get there a different way, this force is what will bring the front end up.
> 
> Its like a leg/hip snap from a bent leg to a straighter leg. Think: using force applied through my pedals, I am trying to push the rear wheel up under me.


I understand you are talking about manuals, no confusion there.

How do I push the pedals FORWARD unless I am ALREADY way behind them?
To do so while directly above them would require bending my foot into a U.
Othewise most of the force has to go down.


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## Hollis Prince (Nov 17, 2015)

It's hard for us to understand that when you attempt to wheelie (lean back, arms extended, pedal HARD whilst in one of the easiest gears), you are unable to get the front wheel up more than just a few inches. If it's about being extremely weak maybe you should work out your legs by doing squats, dead lifts, etc. There's plenty of videos about this: GMBN have some very good ones pertaining to mountain biking.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Maybe he just weighs a LOT, and as such, there is a lot of weight on the front wheel?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Maybe some people just aren't meant to manual.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Maybe he just weighs a LOT, and as such, there is a lot of weight on the front wheel?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


I weigh about 145-150 pounds.
Most of that IS on the front wheel no matter how I move, due to long chainstays and short legs.


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## Mentor (Aug 14, 2015)

Try a more static move at first, rather than a dynamic one where it becomes hard to diagnose what is going on: while coasting, get your weight far back and as low as you can, your arms should be fully extended and your shoulders near your ears. In this position, you should feel your front wheel wanting to lift off of the ground. No force/strength need be applied. It is an easy step from this position to get the wheel up, as it is almost fully unweighted.

If you do not feel the wheel lifting in this position (make sure you are really fully extended as far back as you can go - have someone take a pic of you if possible), then I would suggest that your bike fit and/or geometry is not conducive to you manualling on it.


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## Hollis Prince (Nov 17, 2015)

By the way, how old are you and what's your height/weight?


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

Andy, have you use manual on the trail or up the sidewalk curb yet. If not you need to tap into that subconscious level.


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## Mentor (Aug 14, 2015)

Wait, is this your bike?


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

Hollis Prince said:


> It's hard for us to understand that when you attempt to wheelie (lean back, arms extended, pedal HARD whilst in one of the easiest gears), you are unable to get the front wheel up more than just a few inches.





Hollis Prince said:


> If it's about being extremely weak maybe you should work out your legs by doing squats, dead lifts, etc.


Not that weak (except compared to the racerboys and racer girls here) but it is ALL slow-twitch, and while I have gotten stronger, that does not change.



Hollis Prince said:


> There's plenty of videos about this: GMBN have some very good ones pertaining to mountain biking.


l have watched those videos. Those guys can get back much further than I can due to being much taller and having bikes with short CS and very slack HTA and STA compared to mine.



Mentor said:


> Try a more static move at first, rather than a dynamic one where it becomes hard to diagnose what is going on: while coasting, get your weight far back and as low as you can, your arms should be fully extended and your shoulders near your ears. In this position, you should feel your front wheel wanting to lift off of the ground. No force/strength need be applied. It is an easy step from this position to get the wheel up, as it is almost fully unweighted.
> 
> If you do not feel the wheel lifting in this position (make sure you are really fully extended as far back as you can go - have someone take a pic of you if possible), then I would suggest that your bike fit and/or geometry is not conducive to you manualling on it.


Still plenty of weight on the front at full stretch. The position you describe is very familiar, as it is what I use going down steep hills to keep the REAR wheel on the ground.

The bike I usually practice with is a '97 stumpy M2 hardtail. Bikes of that vintage are notoriously hard to wheelie or manual, according to many reports here. The bikes I got since then, '04 FSR / XC (out of commission) and '13 Marin Mount Vision XM8 are even harder, possibly due to being heavier and full suspension. Shorter stems (much shorter) only helped a little.


mimi1885 said:


> Andy, have you use manual on the trail or up the sidewalk curb yet. If not you need to tap into that subconscious level.


What subconscious level?


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## DreamingTree229 (Dec 29, 2014)

I really appreciate this thread. I have been trying, very unsuccessfully, to manual for about 6 months. I got it occasionally but it was clearly to much work. The tip to feel like you are pushing the bike in front of you with with your hands and feet is very helpful. It made me realize that I was really trying to throw my chest back. I can't hit it all the time yet and I can't hold it for very long. But when I do it is a very different feeling. 

Thanks for all the tips!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## idividebyzero (Sep 25, 2014)

if you cant get your weight far enough behind the rear axle at full extension then you need a smaller bike, if the bike is too big theres no point


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

idividebyzero said:


> if you cant get your weight far enough behind the rear axle at full extension then you need a smaller bike, if the bike is too big theres no point


The bike I'm practicing on is a small frame already. 13" frame which came with a long stem but now has a really short one. If I reverse the stem, my knees hit the handlebars.

Unfortunately going to a smaller frame size usually doesn't make the chainstays any shorter. "New geometry" only shortens them by an inch or so. To get back that far, I would have to grow longer legs.


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## Hollis Prince (Nov 17, 2015)

Could you make a video for us and post it?


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

andytiedye said:


> What subconscious level?


Have you tried manual up the ledge or curb, pump the back side harder when you roll over the smooth bump(s) on the trails, stuff like that. It sounds like you are just practicing off the trail only.

As for bike geometry, the shortest chainstay 26" is just under 15" and avg classic hard tail geometry is 16"-17", current 29er HT range from 16"+-17.5". Switching 100mm stem to 50mm already make up for the reach difference.

You can also consider trial bikes 24" wheel with stay as short as 14" and overall geometry that promote rear wheel weight bias, super easy to keep front wheel up. A standing option is always used 16" bmx for under $50.


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## andytiedye (Jul 26, 2014)

mimi1885 said:


> Have you tried manual up the ledge or curb, pump the back side harder when you roll over the smooth bump(s) on the trails, stuff like that. It sounds like you are just practicing off the trail only.


I do try it on the trail as well, but I am usually riding the FS there, so the wheel only comes up about half as far.



mimi1885 said:


> As for bike geometry, the shortest chainstay 26" is just under 15" and avg classic hard tail geometry is 16"-17", current 29er HT range from 16"+-17.5". Switching 100mm stem to 50mm already make up for the reach difference.


Shortening the stem only gained me a few inches. (Did that on both bikes, BTW).



mimi1885 said:


> You can also consider trial bikes 24" wheel with stay as short as 14" and overall geometry that promote rear wheel weight bias, super easy to keep front wheel up. A standing option is always used 16" bmx for under $50.


I have never even seen a 24" trials bike. Who makes them?

It is likely that I could get the wheel up higher on a smaller bike because it should require far less force to do so, especially if the frame geometry is designed to facilitate that. Would a trials bike be at all suitable for climbing hills? Would I have to be out of the saddle for all of them?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

You don't want to climb a trials bike, and a BMX bike will still be a better tool to learn on. 
You also don't need to get your wheel up high.

Seriously, quit dicking around and grab a cheap BMX bike. You'll find out then whether you should be blaming the bike, or whether manuals are just a lot trickierto learn than people tend to think.

Another good tip video (might wanna skip to 3:30)

Scotty Cranmer - Teaching Big Boy How To Manual | BMX UNION


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## LaXCarp (Jul 19, 2008)

slapheadmofo said:


> You'll find out then whether you should be blaming the bike, or whether manuals are just a lot trickier to learn than people tend to think.


There is your answer. It aint the bike.


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## dave785 (Apr 30, 2016)

I had an a-ha moment yesterday when it comes to manuals and so I came back to post about it and realized that it's already in this thread... 

anyway, my a-ha moment was that I need to push the bottom of the bike forwards with my feet and time that push with when my arms straighten and start the pull... just like a deadlift. 

Before I was doing most of the lifting with my upper and lower back because I spend a ton of time in the gym doing upright barbell rows and it was pretty much muscle memory for me. Once I started treating it like a deadlift it became really easy. The muscle movement now feels like it's mostly in my thighs and gluts. 

Let me elaborate that for a deadlift, different people have different methods of visualizing it. I was taught to view it as holding onto the bar and pushing the gym floor down with your legs. if you don't visualize a DL this way then this might not make sense. It's like you're pushing the bike forwards with your feet to clear the drop as fast as possible. it actually makes sense... if you were going off a drop and the front wheel was about to go off it, you'd want the rear wheel to go off as fast as possible after the front wheel, so you push the bike forwards with your feet (the opposite of squashing a jump).

well, it became really easy for me to fall over because now I need to learn how to balance left/right wobbling lol. But hey, it's progress. I'm a newb so obviously take everything I say with a grain of salt, but maybe you can relate?


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## mimi1885 (Aug 12, 2006)

It's awesome Dave. You are doing it. 


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## Hollis Prince (Nov 17, 2015)

Congratulations! I knew you'd get it


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

if Kat Sweet can't teach you, no one can

https://www.mtbproject.com/blog/2531/video-how-to-manual


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