# What do you give up with a VP Free vs. a full DH rig?



## Skygrounder (Apr 26, 2004)

Currently I'm riding a Jekyll 1000, which has seen Big Bear every weekend this season (except for the nats), so needless to say I'm hoping to move up to something with a bit more travel (though probably not til the end of the season). But I'd also like to have the thing be climbable so it can be used during the other 6 months of the year.

Just read MBAction's review of the VP Free and they seemed to be in love with it... they seem to be especially happy with it's climbing ability given its travel.

I'm just curious to know how much one gives up with a rig like this versus say a pure DH rig like a V-10, Demo9, or Iron Horse SGS. I'd probably be going with a triple clamp fork on the VP Free (though not sure what).


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## Lucky13 (Jan 14, 2004)

*na*

DH = a lot of sag, plush ride = pedal bob no matter what. VP with it's two links is made two be a better climber and descend as any other DH rig would (or close to that). If you can afford VP - go for it. Just think of running 3-4" of sag on V-10.


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## BJ- (Jan 28, 2004)

if u can afford a Vp-Free...then definatly get one...


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## Fulton (Feb 6, 2004)

if you want one by the end of the year, you should probably put your order in now. I know the wait can be very long on those.

By the way, how is Santa Cruz handling these back orders, do you have to 100% prepay, just a deposit, or do you just "put your name in"?


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## X-Vert (Jan 22, 2004)

*Not much.*

Maybe a little high speed stability but it's well worth the all around riding capabilities.

Get it if you can!


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## gonzostrike (Jan 3, 2004)

*SkyGrounder, Scott Crabill @ Go-Ride has explained...*

...the reasons why the VP-Free oddly isn't even an optimal FR bike, let alone a DH bike, and if I remember correctly, most of the problem relates to the head angle.

if you do a search in this Downhill-Freeride forum for "VP-Free" with user name [email protected], you should be able to find Scott's posts very quickly.


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## Skygrounder (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanks for all the info everyone!



gonzostrike said:


> ...the reasons why the VP-Free oddly isn't even an optimal FR bike, let alone a DH bike, and if I remember correctly, most of the problem relates to the head angle.
> 
> if you do a search in this Downhill-Freeride forum for "VP-Free" with user name [email protected], you should be able to find Scott's posts very quickly.


gonzostrike, I'm having a heck of a time finding Scott's post on the VP-Free. Found his review about the Cuervo/DHR/V-10 which was quite enlightening, so I'd love to find this post!


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

Lucky13 said:


> DH = a lot of sag, plush ride = pedal bob no matter what.


Oh no!! Then something must be wrong with my DH Big Hit's 8 inches of travel, because after I had my RC PUSH'd, I don't have hardly any pedal bob. 

I agree if you have the flow to get a VP-Free go for it. The reviews in MB Fiction were pretty solid.


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## BJ- (Jan 28, 2004)

im sorry red5 but some of us here still have to deal with the stock RC...


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## Skygrounder (Apr 26, 2004)

red5 said:


> Oh no!! Then something must be wrong with my DH Big Hit's 8 inches of travel, because after I had my RC PUSH'd, I don't have hardly any pedal bob.
> 
> I agree if you have the flow to get a VP-Free go for it. The reviews in MB Fiction were pretty solid.


MB Fiction...lol...I don't read the mags regularly, but it seems like they love everything in MBA.


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## BigDigger (Mar 29, 2004)

*Try this link*

Here is the thread you were looking for, retard.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=9123

I don't know why you care about reviews on a VP-Free anyhow, they don't stock them at WalMart.


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## Skygrounder (Apr 26, 2004)

BigDigger said:


> Here is the thread you were looking for, retard.
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=9123
> 
> I don't know why you care about reviews on a VP-Free anyhow, they don't stock them at WalMart.


Have you made up your mind between the Segway and the Demo9 yet?


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## incubus (Jan 20, 2004)

Skygrounder said:


> Just read MBAction's review of the VP Free and they seemed to be in love with it... they seem to be especially happy with it's climbing ability given its travel.


Take it with a grain of salt. They give favorable reviews to any company that purchases as much ad space as SC does. That's not to say that the bike isn't really great, but I wouldn't use the magazine that's desperately trying to coin the term 'black diamond riding' as a reference for anything.

If you feel that you need a DH rig and the VP-free appeals to you, why not a V-10?


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

BJ- said:


> im sorry red5 but some of us here still have to deal with the stock RC...


It's OK, some of you apparently still ride Boxxers too. While others of us have Monster T's. 

I was just goofing on Lucky's post. Just like I am on yours now. It really makes no difference how your bike is setup as long as your having fun. If I offended you, I apologize. Seems that even when posting smileys, people still get upset. Go figure......


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## Sin (Feb 28, 2004)

I DH on my bullit and I have a hell of a time keeping up with pure breed DH bikes. I tested out the theory last year I rode my buds Foes DHS Tube and he rode my bullit both skill level the same he is just a tad bit better and I was at least 50 to 100 yards in front of him all the way. The VP free is almost like the bullit you have a higher center of gravity and less sag that is the only thing I think is different about a VP free, bullit compared to a DH'er like a DHR or V10 etc.. If you can afford a DH and a Freeride/all mountain bike get both if you can't (like me) get the VPfree you won't regret it


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## BigDigger (Mar 29, 2004)

Incubus,

Black Diamond Riding is old news for MBA, they've now outdone even themselves with "DOUBLE Black Diamond Riding," which, apparently, is at least TWICE the craziness of ordinary Black Diamond Riding (or BDR as those of us in the know call it). 

Indeed, a recent survey conducted by the Congresional Resource Allocation Panel on Bicycling (C.R.A.P. on Bikes) revealed that DBDR was found to be over twice as jiibtastic, and over five times more huckerific than BDR. Senator Ted Kennedy (D--Massachusetts) was quoted as saying "BDR is out like Chappaquiddick now that DBDR has arrived. Not only have we seen increases in Jibtasticness and Huckerrificness, but our research has further shown that fly hoochies are over ten times more likely to want to get on the jock of DBDR riders than the jocks of their BDR counterparts." Kennedy went on to note that these numbers would be even higher but for the fact that George Bush was in the Whitehouse.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

BigDigger said:


> Incubus,
> 
> Black Diamond Riding is old news for MBA, they've now outdone even themselves with "DOUBLE Black Diamond Riding," which, apparently, is at least TWICE the craziness of ordinary Black Diamond Riding (or BDR as those of us in the know call it).
> 
> Indeed, a recent survey conducted by the Congresional Resource Allocation Panel on Bicycling (C.R.A.P. on Bikes) revealed that DBDR was found to be over twice as jiibtastic, and over five times more huckerific than BDR. Senator Ted Kennedy (D--Massachusetts) was quoted as saying "BDR is out like Chappaquiddick now that DBDR has arrived. Not only have we seen increases in Jibtasticness and Huckerrificness, but our research has further shown that fly hoochies are over ten times more likely to want to get on the jock of DBDR riders than the jocks of their BDR counterparts." Kennedy went on to note that these numbers would be even higher but for the fact that George Bush was in the Whitehouse.


LMFAO!!!! Now that is some funny f*ing [email protected]!!!


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## Weyvoless (Jan 20, 2004)

Red5, when are you going up to Big Bear next. I want to try out that Bighit of yours! And I know you are wetting yourself to tryout the Weyless. I'll be at the race on the 26th. Let me know.


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## [email protected] (Dec 29, 2003)

I'm glad somebody reads my posts.  Now that the VP Free is reaching customers I've been asking on ridemonkey for someone to post the production geometry of that bike. The SC web says 67 degree HA and 14.8" BB, but they don't say with what fork (ie: axle to crown height). They show the bike pictured with a 888 and the crowns slid to the top of the legs. If that's the fork they get a 67 HA from, than if you run a 7" Super T you are going to have a 69 HA. Don't even think of running a single crown fork, accept maybe the new Marzocchi 666, when it becomes available in '05.

The bottom line for me is that an 8" travel bike should have no steeper than a 67 degree HA with a Super T or any other 7" fork. If you are using it for DH it should be another degree slacker at 66 if you ride anywhere steep like North Star, Plattekill, or Utah. 

Now there is the possibility that they changed the HA for production bikes. That's why I've been asking for real measurements, but I probably won't be satisfied until we have one in the shop for my own personal inspection.  

Look at me using smilies...  ...what is the world coming to?


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## Tarpon (Jan 16, 2004)

*According to SC...*

The published geometry numbers are with a 7" Boxxer. At least that's what Scott Turner told me when I asked a couple of months ago.


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## Castle (Jul 13, 2003)

that's the same I was told 67 with a Boxxer...... Scott, I should have mine in my hands and built in about 3 weeks, I'll be installing a 170mm 888 with stock crowns on it, I'd be more than happy to let you in on any measurements I can take......... btw, this picture is stolen from the santa cruz forum on this site, and is a size XL......

btw...... IMO most true DH bikes you will sit into the travel, they don't make very good climbing machines, however a true FR bike will handle the climbs much better and does not sit as far into the travel....... just a different ride.....


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## gonzostrike (Jan 3, 2004)

*is that a snakebit kit under your saddle?*

I've never seen someone with a bag under the saddle of a FR bike. what's it for?


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

*Digicam?*



gonzostrike said:


> I've never seen someone with a bag under the saddle of a FR bike. what's it for?


I've seen people carry cell phones and cameras like that when they don't have a Camelback on. I think he mentioned that the pic was lifted from the SC forum.


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## Castle (Jul 13, 2003)

TNC said:


> I've seen people carry cell phones and cameras like that when they don't have a Camelback on. I think he mentioned that the pic was lifted from the SC forum.


"Excuse the seatbag for now, the seatpost and saddle were borrowed from my Blur. "

this is what the post said where I got the pictures from.......


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## slamigo (May 19, 2004)

I don't get it. Why is everyone trying to bash the VP-Free for not being a DH bike?
It's not a DH bike. It's a freeride bike. The Demo9, RMX, Scream are all freeride bikes and I don't see everyone crapping on them for not being good DH race rigs. The VP-Free is supposed to have a steeper head angle and high bottom bracket. If you want a DH rig, get a V-10, M-3, Foes, etc, etc.

Basically, the VP-Free is a slightly more sophisticated Bullit. I sold my 2003 Bullit to get the VP-Free and I was not under any illusions that it was a DH bike. If you like the Bullit and understand what to use it for, chances are that you'll enjoy the VP-Free.

Santa Cruz is not hyping it as a DH bike either. It is an 8" travel bike that pedals well. If that appeals to you, buy it. You can trail ride AND have fun on a DH course with this bike. But it's not a race bike.


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## DHbiker (Apr 23, 2004)

Okay, this is kind of off-topic but would a Big Hit Comp (2002) be considered DH or Freeride?


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## gonzostrike (Jan 3, 2004)

*for sure, I'm not bashing the VP-Free*

...as I'd expect it would be a nice FR bike. I have been riding an '02.5 Bullit for two years and I like it as a FR bike, but it's got some weaknesses when used for DHing. as I've found my riding get closer to DHing and away from huge hucks & stuff, I've been thinking about a new bike. I thought about the VP-Free but then realized it's more a FR bike, for the reasons Scott said.

besides, the original post asked what you give up if you compare a VP-Free to a pure DH rig. remember?


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## Ride To The Hills (Mar 14, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> I'm glad somebody reads my posts.  Now that the VP Free is reaching customers I've been asking on ridemonkey for someone to post the production geometry of that bike. The SC web says 67 degree HA and 14.8" BB, but they don't say with what fork (ie: axle to crown height). They show the bike pictured with a 888 and the crowns slid to the top of the legs. If that's the fork they get a 67 HA from, than if you run a 7" Super T you are going to have a 69 HA. Don't even think of running a single crown fork, accept maybe the new Marzocchi 666, when it becomes available in '05.
> 
> The bottom line for me is that an 8" travel bike should have no steeper than a 67 degree HA with a Super T or any other 7" fork. If you are using it for DH it should be another degree slacker at 66 if you ride anywhere steep like North Star, Plattekill, or Utah.
> 
> ...


while were sorta on the subject, how does the el cuervo "freeride" or is it just a dh only frame.
-rtth


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

DHbiker said:


> Okay, this is kind of off-topic but would a Big Hit Comp (2002) be considered DH or Freeride?


Freeride. While the Big Hit was not designed with DH racing in mind, that's not too say you can't DH on it. Allot of people, including myself, use them for both.


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## [email protected] (Dec 29, 2003)

Ride To The Hills said:


> while were sorta on the subject, how does the el cuervo "freeride" or is it just a dh only frame.
> -rtth


The El Cuervo is definitely a DH bike. No question about it. However, I do take it on some freerides, even ones with pretty long climbs. It ain't quick on the climbs, but I get it there. I still would never tell a customer that it makes a good FR bike. When I do take it on freerides I don't bother to raise the seat, change the slow rebound tires or put on a smaller chainring. I just stand up and crank away until it gets too steep for my 38T ring.

IMO I don't believe that any FR bike needs more than 7" of travel. There are FR bikes that get more than 7" and still work "ok", but for me 7" is plenty. For that matter my FR bike only has 6" with a 5" fork. When I want to hit drops, or gaps, or ride crazy steep lines I use my DH bike. To me that kind of riding is stunt riding, not freeriding.

I guess for me freeriding is still riding up to get the goods on the way down. So, if I'm going to hump an 8" travel bike up a big hill, it better be able to rip on the way down. When I demoed the VP Free at interbike, it did not rip on the way down. It felt steep, tall, and uneasy. In all honesty my 6" Ventana El Chamuco was much faster and more fun on the Bootleg descents than the VP Free. It wasn't that the Chamuco had better suspension than the VP Free it was that it had a better HA to BB height relationship. 
However, there is certainly the possibility that SC adjusted the HA to suit the ability of the suspension.

I guess we will find out.


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## hucking_crazy (Apr 11, 2004)

*?*

[email protected]go-ride:

Sorry that you were not impressed with the VPfree. I would like to think that i am one for taking everything for what it's worth, and i agree that all-too-often bike mags sadly slant their reviews to their best interest. 
Somewhat similarly, i find it amusing that you seem to always be impressed with the bikes you sell compared to others you don't. For example: "The only 8" bike I've riddend that was better at climbing is the Foes Fly with Curnutt."
Furthermore, in your previous review on the VPfree you stated, "Unfortunately, I wasn't impressed with the overall bike and we decided not to pick this bike line for 2004." Is that honestly the reason why you didn't pick-up SC? Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought you DID try to pick up SC this year but another local shop got them first which kept you from being able to do so.


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## Skygrounder (Apr 26, 2004)

hucking_crazy said:


> Somewhat similarly, i find it amusing that you seem to always be impressed with the bikes you sell compared to others you don't.


No offense intended, but If I owned a bike store and had the ability to chose, I'd be inclined to stock bikes I was impressed with.



[email protected] said:


> It wasn't that the Chamuco had better suspension than the VP Free it was that it had a better HA to BB height relationship.
> However, there is certainly the possibility that SC adjusted the HA to suit the ability of the suspension.


Very interested to hear if this is actually the case. Right now I *think* I'm looking for a freeride bike that can "play with" all-mountain bikes like the Jekyll but can also hold its own on ski resort downhill courses and such. The VP Free still looks promising, especialy since the HA of the released version seems to be in the right ballpark. I always ask that one bike do well across a whole bunch of different disciplines (yeah, I know this is bad, I should own 3 bikes ), but I think the VP might be just the mutt I'm looking for to that'll do it all.


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## [email protected] (Dec 29, 2003)

hucking_crazy said:


> [email protected]:
> 
> Sorry that you were not impressed with the VPfree. I would like to think that i am one for taking everything for what it's worth, and i agree that all-too-often bike mags sadly slant their reviews to their best interest.
> Somewhat similarly, i find it amusing that you seem to always be impressed with the bikes you sell compared to others you don't. For example: "The only 8" bike I've riddend that was better at climbing is the Foes Fly with Curnutt."
> Furthermore, in your previous review on the VPfree you stated, "Unfortunately, I wasn't impressed with the overall bike and we decided not to pick this bike line for 2004." Is that honestly the reason why you didn't pick-up SC? Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought you DID try to pick up SC this year but another local shop got them first which kept you from being able to do so.


You make a very good and valid point, but so does Skygrounder. We sell and recommend bikes we like. You may have noticed that for '04 we are not offering Intense. Yes they make beautiful bikes that we could sell a lot of on name and marketing, but the '04 line did not fit with the values of Go-ride.com, so we dropped them. The new 5.5 was too much of light XC bike and the M3 was not available for a test ride at the demo. For '05 we may pick them up again if the M3 or their new V8 prove to be bikes worth the $ they ask for them.

As for Santa Cruz, we were about to place our order (before the tradeshow) when we found out that: 1. The Blur is only warranteed for a 4" fork, making it to XC for our customers. 2. We could not place orders for VP Frees until a much later date. So, we decided to wait and see if we liked the VP Free at the Demo. During that time another local shop picked up SC for the Blur, but we still had a potential option to carry the VP Free and V10. After testing the VP Free we felt that until the geometry was addressed it was not a bike we felt confident in selling. That doesn't mean that we couldn't have sold a bunch of them, it just means that we felt there are better options near that price.

I still stand behind my opinion that the Fly with a Curnutt climbs better than the VP Free I rode. There are not a lot of 8" FR bikes to choose from. The Big Hit pedals smooth, but mushy in the 8" mode, the Yeti ASX (7.5") pedals firm, but has a fair bit of feedback in the granny ring, the Scream pedals good, but weighs a lot and I'm not sure if it gets a full 8". Obviously there are others that I haven't ridden, but I won't comment if I haven't tested.

At this momment I think the VP Free is a cool looking bike with a lot of potential if they make some changes to the geometry. I'm sure a lot of riders will be super happy with that bike, I just don't think it will work, as good as other similar bikes, on our steep UT trails.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

*Saddle bag is for?*



gonzostrike said:


> I've never seen someone with a bag under the saddle of a FR bike. what's it for?


Nothing, that seatpost and saddle were robbed from my Blur until I get a new post for the VP. Inside it are a tube and tire levers for XC racing.

Ken


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

I'll post production geometry soon. That's my Trans Red XL above.

The bike climbs very well. It's still heavy but climbs like most 5" travel bikes. I sold my old Bullit and bought the VP and love it for Freeriding. It takes drops amazingly well but then again it has 8+" of travel and it should take drops well. It also handles very well and I'm able to find my way down trickly North Shore trails better than any other bike that I've been on. The HA is definitely slacker than my Bullit which had the same Boxxer on it. The BB is also lower because I hit my pedals on rocks, while climbing, that I used to cruise right over. The lower BB is really nice when rolling through tight switchbacks and finding my way down skinnies.


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## MTBsSd (Jan 12, 2004)

hey scott is go-ride gonna make one of those new bike comparison charts for this year?


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## rug wheelie (Mar 18, 2004)

*Front Deraileur....*

VP Free can run a front der. and the new V10 can not. The new V10 frame is also a monocoque front end and weights 10 lbs., 2lbs. lighter than the older version. The new frame is claimed to be 30% stiffer. The Shock rate was also changed to make it more linear in the initial part of its travel and the VPP linkage has been changed to make it pedal a little better and to cut down on brake jack. It still has 10" of travel. They are available in powder coat ($2199) or anodized ($2399).

beyond the fine details the answer is very simple. If you want to haul a## , huck your meat and peddle up hill get a VPP, Demo 9, etc. If you just want to haul a## and huck your meat get a V10, M3, etc.


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## OGRipper (Jan 31, 2004)

*Scott, are your numbers with or without sag?*

As I understand it, proper sag is really important for any VPP bike. Doesn't SC recommend a lot of sag for rear end of the VP-free? Even though the fork will sag a bit too, wouldn't that mean the head angle is effectively more slack than your numbers, and that the travel is arguably more in line with the other bikes you mention? Doesn't it really mean that when set up right, the VP-free has basically the same geometry you like?

People here put a lot of stock in your opinion, and I think you should explain. If your numbers are based on static measurements, it doesn't really tell the whole story does it? I guess some sag is recommended for all bikes ('cept maybe giant nrs), but isn't the extra sag for VPP worth mentioning because it will effect geometry?

I also think that in many ways the VP-free is a whole new animal and that your guidelines for other 8" travel bikes (most of which are purposely built for DH) don't really apply.

This doesn't have anything to do with your riding impression, which is what it is and nothing can change it. I'm just concerned about the fact that people put a lot of stock in your opinion and might not even take a second look at a VP-free after reading your posts. You do a good job of qualifying your posts by saying they're just your opinion and I hope you keep serving them up...


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## [email protected] (Dec 29, 2003)

OGRipper said:


> As I understand it, proper sag is really important for any VPP bike. Doesn't SC recommend a lot of sag for rear end of the VP-free? Even though the fork will sag a bit too, wouldn't that mean the head angle is effectively more slack than your numbers, and that the travel is arguably more in line with the other bikes you mention? Doesn't it really mean that when set up right, the VP-free has basically the same geometry you like?
> 
> People here put a lot of stock in your opinion, and I think you should explain. If your numbers are based on static measurements, it doesn't really tell the whole story does it? I guess some sag is recommended for all bikes ('cept maybe giant nrs), but isn't the extra sag for VPP worth mentioning because it will effect geometry?
> 
> ...


I'll answer your questions as best as I can:

I did not measure the sag on the VP Free. It did not seem to sag any more than a typical 8" DH/FR bike. The bottom line for me is that it felt very uneasy in the head angle to BB height department. I had to ride with considerable more caution than any other bike I tested on the upper DH trails at Bootleg Canyon, and I was not the only person who felt this. I did not ride it on the fairly flat recommended DH trail, but rather the real DH trails off the top where they hold the races. These are rather techie trails with lots of rocks, holes, switchbacks and steep lines. These are the kind of trails I would expect most people to want to access with an 8" FR bike. I have raced there many times, so I know quite well how a fast I can and can't go there. If just happened to be that on the VP Free I was going considerably slower and even more importantly I did not feel confident.

It was actually after I had ridden the bike that I brought an angle meter to find out why if felt the way it did. That's when I found out that the HA was on the steep side. I would never have bothered to measure the HA if I hadn't felt uncomfortable on the bike.

I do agree that FR bikes should be a bit steeper and taller than a comparable DH race bike, but only a bit. They should be a bit steeper to handle lower speed trails better for the average rider. However, I feel that my full DH bike rips tight trails damn well too. And, they should be a bit taller at the BB for pedaling with longer cranks. The problem for me is that building an 8" bike that doesn't handle steeps or speed leaves little room for a place to ride it. I'm not going to take an 8" bike on a relatively flat twisty trail that I would have a lot more fun on a 5" or 6" bike. The type of riding I think the VP Free would be good at is riding skinny planks to big drops with flatter landings. That's a pretty limited riding criteria unless you happen to live in BC on the Northshore trails.

Again, I did like the looks, build, suspension feel and quality of the bike, and if they slacken the HA by a 1 to 2 degrees it could be a great bike. This is what I have been trying to find out about the production version.


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## BJ- (Jan 28, 2004)

lol bastard...lol

u didnt upset me man...i like smilies too...

sorry man but i have no comeback so u win...


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## BJ- (Jan 28, 2004)

oh wait yes i do...

my sympathy goes out to u man...i only just realised that some of us still seem to run singletracks... 

anyway what rim r u running on the back im not familiar with it...


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## OGRipper (Jan 31, 2004)

*Fair enough*

Thanks for the quick reply Scott.

You don't know if you were riding with the right sag and basically went and rode it the way it was? I know how that sounds, and I also know it's hard to get set up right at the dirt demo (esp with the demand for that bike and the craziness at the sc booth/bus), but I just want to understand. You probably know the performance of any VPP bike depends on running the right amount of sag. I've never really understood it but I think it has something to do with how the travel path and shock rate change as you move through the travel. If it's not set up right, it won't give you the right pedaling or bump performance because your starting point will be somewhere other than the optimal spot.

If the one you rode did not sag more than any other 8" bike, it sounds like maybe the shock was too stiff for you, whether it was a heavy spring, too much damping, or whatever. That would explain why if felt too tall and steep and didn't inspire lots of confidence.

And if you measured the head angle yourself, you probably weren't sitting on it, and with recommended sag being more than normal, it makes sense that a static measurement would give you a steeper number than you'd actually get with the right sag.

Now, say what you want about whether a VP-free should be that hard to set up, but it's like reviewing a 5th element that wasn't set up right - easy to get it wrong and you can mislead people if it isn't dialed for you.

Ahh, whatever. Scott, I'm not laying into you and hope you take these comments the right way. You just seemed to have a strong opinion based on one less-than optimal ride. Cheers.


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

*Production VP Free numbers*

Well, here are some numbers from my VP Free (pictured above). 
Head Angle = 67.25 deg without rider, ie: no sag I'd guess that it slackens another degree or so with me aboard it because the head angle feels quite slack
Seat Tube 19.9"
Head Tube 5.5" 
Wheelbase 47"
BB height 14.25" with 2.5" Maxxis Mobsters (a little bit higher with my 2.7" Maxxis)
BB height with me aboard 13"
Top tube 25"

The latest numbers from SC are pretty much what I measured except that my bb height is lower by 1/2".

This is also with 2 heavy springs in my Boxxer - as I ride it on the local trails. The headtube will be slightly steeper with one med spring in it as I ride it at faster places such as whistler. The bike is a little more at home handling shore type trails with drops, skinnies and steeps but still handles the faster runs at Whistler very well (better than my Bullit it both cases). It makes a great all around, albeit heavy, bike.


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## [email protected] (Dec 29, 2003)

bog said:


> Well, here are some numbers from my VP Free (pictured above).
> Head Angle = 67.25 deg without rider, ie: no sag I'd guess that it slackens another degree or so with me aboard it because the head angle feels quite slack
> Seat Tube 19.9"
> Head Tube 5.5"
> ...


Thanks for the info. Any chance you could measure the axle to crown height? That would be from the center of the 20mm axle to the top of the lower fork crown (just below the HS race).


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## [email protected] (Dec 29, 2003)

OGRipper said:


> Thanks for the quick reply Scott.
> 
> You don't know if you were riding with the right sag and basically went and rode it the way it was? I know how that sounds, and I also know it's hard to get set up right at the dirt demo (esp with the demand for that bike and the craziness at the sc booth/bus), but I just want to understand. You probably know the performance of any VPP bike depends on running the right amount of sag. I've never really understood it but I think it has something to do with how the travel path and shock rate change as you move through the travel. If it's not set up right, it won't give you the right pedaling or bump performance because your starting point will be somewhere other than the optimal spot.
> 
> ...


I don't want to turn this into some argument, but your statement that, "You don't know if you were riding with the right sag and basically went and rode it the way it was?", seems like you coming just short of calling me an idiot. Well, I did just ride that medium the way SC set it up for me. They had a chart on the wall to set the air pressure in the shock for a given riders weight. I happen to be 170 lbs., which is right in the middle of a medium from most mfcrs. The sag felt like what I am used to on an 8" bike (30% - 35%). SC actually recommends only 30% sag on the VP Free which is less than the typical 35% DH setting.

As I said in my previous posts the suspension and pedaling worked great. My only complaint was the steepness of the HA in relation to the height of the BB. In all honesty I would have never noticed this if the bike had not felt so uneasy on steeper terrain. I rode the bike first and the result of that ride made me wonder what the geometry was.

The bike I rode measured close to 68 with an '04 Super T. For some riders that may be fine. For me it's too steep for the speed I prefer to ride. However, Bog's bike is measuring 67.25 with a Boxxer. It may be that they slackened the HA for the production bikes or that Bog's Boxxer is sitting a bit taller than the Super T I rode. For were I ride I like a 66 degree HA on a 8" - 9" travel bike with a 7" fork.


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## Cooter. (Apr 14, 2004)

DHbiker said:


> Okay, this is kind of off-topic but would a Big Hit Comp (2002) be considered DH or Freeride?


off the chain urban black diamond cliff huck jibber rig


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for the info. Any chance you could measure the axle to crown height? That would be from the center of the 20mm axle to the top of the lower fork crown (just below the HS race).


I'm running the Boxxer with the crown at the lowest possible height recommended by RS (160mm from the top of the seals to the bottom of the lower crown). As it sits now, a 2.7" Maxxis High Roller tire will make very light contac with the lower crown under full compression. Most other forks, especially 888's will be higher and will slacken the HA.
If this makes any sense I remember the axle to bottom of lower crown distance to be 520mm. I'm sure you have a Boxxer around to measure the thickness of the lower crown.

Bog


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## OGRipper (Jan 31, 2004)

*No Argument*

Not at all Scott, wasn't calling you an idiot. There's no need for passive aggression or thinly veiled insults here, if I wanted to call you out I would have. I said I knew how it sounded and tried to qualify my post, I really was just trying to flesh out the set up on the rig you rode and understand your impression because it's different from what I've heard from other people (not counting MBA, which IMHO isn't worth the paper it's printed on).

Based on Bog's measurements, the free with a boxxer is pretty close to what you say are good numbers, and with an 8" fork it sounds like it would definitely be somewhere in the 66 - 67 range. Proves that regardless of what a bike looks like on paper or how it measures, the most important factor is the subjective feel. Either that or SC changed the HA between dirt demo and Bog's production version, which is what you've been trying to figure out. Whatever. The free might not be for you but other people might like it, and luckily the industry can provide lots of options.

Ride on.


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## DHbiker (Apr 23, 2004)

Cooter. said:


> off the chain urban black diamond cliff huck jibber rig


Sounds good to me, guess I can go enter the Red Bull Rampage Now


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## Warren47 (Jun 6, 2004)

All Big hits are in the freeride genre...but the word "freeride" and "downhill" is greatly opinionated.


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## DHbiker (Apr 23, 2004)

Yeah good point


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

BJ- said:


> oh wait yes i do...
> 
> my sympathy goes out to u man...i only just realised that some of us still seem to run singletracks...
> 
> anyway what rim r u running on the back im not familiar with it...


OUCH!!!! Yeah I know it's a Singletrack, but I've never had a problem with it. My front rims always seem to do better (less weight to support) than my rear.

The rear you asked about is an Arrow DHX. Best darned rim I've used and when the ST blows, I'll get the Arrow laced up front too. Only issue for some may be weight, the 24" weighs 749gr (1.6 lbs) and the 26" is 820gr (1.75 lbs).

Check em out https://arrowracing.com/rims/dhx.html
<img src=https://arrowracing.com/media/images/product/rims/rims_dhx_detail.jpg>


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## Acadian (Jan 1, 2004)

bog said:


> I'm running the Boxxer with the crown at the lowest possible height recommended by RS (160mm from the top of the seals to the bottom of the lower crown).


I sure hope you have your Boxxer set to 6"!! Running only 160mm on a 7" Boxxer is bad news...


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## slamigo (May 19, 2004)

meh, my 2003 Bullit had a 68-69 degree HA and I could have lots of fun at DH. But I don't race. I'm just riding for fun.
My VP-Free should be here within 2 weeks and the HA is supposed to be 67 degrees according to SC website. That will suit my riding just fine.
I live in Ontario where the FR/DH is very technical and rocky with lots of near-flat landings. 
Based on [email protected]'s comments, I am actually convinced that this is the right bike for me. It may not be the right bike for him, but I think it will suit my purpose just fine.
Thanks for the input. When mine comes in, I'll post the build spec and pics.
Later


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## Captain Crash (Apr 24, 2004)

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet but if you are looking for 7"+ travel, light and huckable frame have you seen the Foes Infernus ( j/k Inferno). I picked one up at the LBS the other day and the think only weighs like 7.5 lbs! That is like an inch per pound (like me!).

http://www.foesracing.com/products/index.cfm?product=inferno

Also, built up it is priced right next to the VP Free. I have no idea how it pedals though...


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## BJ- (Jan 28, 2004)

oh nice...i thought it might be but i wasnt usre seems as ive only ever heard about em never seen one...are they like a US company or summin coz most aus ppl dont seem to know much about em...or have em...

and ppl stop bringing back old threads...we all know VPs are sick leave it at that...


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## bog (Jun 3, 2004)

Acadian said:


> I sure hope you have your Boxxer set to 6"!! Running only 160mm on a 7" Boxxer is bad news...


I push the legs up a bit when I put on a bigger tire. You don't actually think a 170mm Boxxer actually gets 170mm of travel do you? At 160mm the wipers will contact the crown but not do any damage.


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