# Use of the Front Brake



## weezerny (May 16, 2011)

Hey all,

I developed a bad trait when I was younger with pretty much always using the rear brake, for fear of flipping over the handlebars. I have been reading:

http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

Which is saying I should be using the front break 95% of the time, does this apply to trail riding as well? Do you guys usually just use the front brakes?

Thanks!


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## GotoDengo (Aug 6, 2010)

Even more so. Most of your stopping power is in the front. On a trail, your rear brake is more likely to skid on on dirt given the force needed to stop. You don't "just' use the front brake -- it's probably more like "75/25". The rear brake is primarily to keep the rear wheel down and prevent endo-ing. This is why your front rotor is usually larger than the rear... it sees more friction and increases the heat capacity.

Feathering the rear brake (by itself) is useful for trimming your angle on turns. That's not really a "stopping" situation, but there are some occasions you will just use your rear brake.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

I use both all the time....the questions is how much force to each brake...

Normally more force on the rear unless it starts to skid...then I use more on the front...

Or if the rear gets to hot I will start with more front brake..

Also if the brakes are getting hot use stab braking off and on braking with both brakes.


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## gemini9 (Mar 23, 2011)

I was in the same situation when I first got my Windsor. Because of childhood habits I was afraid of killing myself if I used the front brake. But one time I was flying down the fire trail and needed to stop. Yeah I mean, I NEEDED to stop... unless I wanted to hit that big rock..... But I pulled both brakes hard. I didn't flip over the handlebars or anything at all. Tired skidded a little in the gravel, but I didn't wreck. 

Just don't slam on your brakes when you're in the middle of a turn and you should be fine. Extra care should be taken when going down hills, because you do have a higher risk of going over the bars. Shift your weight more towards the rear and if you feel like you're going overboard, just let up on the brake. Easy enough. 

But I haven't had any trouble. If you want to stop, first apply pressure to the rear (but don't lock your wheel and skid) and then apply pressure to the front. Don't be afraid of it, you should be fine.


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## Heavy Fluid (Mar 31, 2011)

I actually do the reverse of this, by applying pressure to the front first, and then the rear at almost the same time.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Unless you're a highly skilled rider controlling the bike through turns with controlled rear skids, you should always use both brakes. Most of your stopping power is in the front. 

Here are some tips on using the front without going over the bars:

Make sure your brakes are properly set up and functional. You should have good modulation - meaning that they're not too grabby and don't tend to lock the wheels with moderate brake pressure. Rather the grab should ramp up as you squeeze harder. 

Learn not to overdo the front brake. Don't wait until your verging on disaster to scrub speed. Stay within your limits, be conservative until you gain confidence in using the front brake.

Anticipate the inertial forces that will propel your body froward as you apply the brakes Move your weight back on the saddle and use your arms and legs to resist, . I find this essential to safe braking, especially when going downhill.


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

rear for control....front to stop

rear can be used by itself....front is usually used in conjunction with the rear....

when actively using the front release it completely for anything that will dramatically slow your front wheel down until you clear the obstacle....even if it's only for a split second....

obstacles like rocks, roots, squirrels, tight turns, ledges, your buddy who endoed in front of ya, etc....

my.02


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## JonathanGennick (Sep 15, 2006)

I use the front brake so much that I have at times thought of jettisoning the rear brake to save the weight. Not that I never use the rear, but I really don't use it much and could probably get by without it if I wanted to do so.

The secret to using the front brake is to brace yourself against the bars and push back against the deceleration forces. Don't just be passive and sit there. Brace. Shift your weight back as needed. Practice to get the hang of it. Also, let up on the brake if your wheel is about to hit a log. Sometimes you must modulate the brake on and off to correspond to the changes in terrain.


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## 96p993 (May 21, 2011)

This might be dumb but I have ridden motorcycles for years. When I got my SS I realized the brake lever positions were backwards from a motorcycle (right lever is rear on bicycle)...Needless to say the back brake is at my feet on a motorcycle but it kinda messes with my head...Am I the only one who has noticed? Any reason for left hand front, right hand back? Has anyone changed the positioning?

Am I losing my mind??


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## Heavy Fluid (Mar 31, 2011)

96p993 said:


> This might be dumb but I have ridden motorcycles for years. When I got my SS I realized the brake lever positions were backwards from a motorcycle (right lever is rear on bicycle)...Needless to say the back brake is at my feet on a motorcycle but it kinda messes with my head...Am I the only one who has noticed? Any reason for left hand front, right hand back? Has anyone changed the positioning?
> 
> Am I losing my mind??


Not at all. I have heard of a lot of people swapping. One of my friends did that on his Heckler.


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

96p993 said:


> This might be dumb but I have ridden motorcycles for years. When I got my SS I realized the brake lever positions were backwards from a motorcycle (right lever is rear on bicycle)...Needless to say the back brake is at my feet on a motorcycle but it kinda messes with my head...Am I the only one who has noticed? Any reason for left hand front, right hand back? Has anyone changed the positioning?
> 
> Am I losing my mind??





Heavy Fluid said:


> Not at all. I have heard of a lot of people swapping. One of my friends did that on his Heckler.


it's called 'moto style'.....and is fun to watch when your friends jump on your bike for a spin....


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## Berkley (May 21, 2007)

96p993 said:


> This might be dumb but I have ridden motorcycles for years. When I got my SS I realized the brake lever positions were backwards from a motorcycle (right lever is rear on bicycle)...Needless to say the back brake is at my feet on a motorcycle but it kinda messes with my head...Am I the only one who has noticed? *Any reason for left hand front, right hand back?* Has anyone changed the positioning?
> 
> Am I losing my mind??


By law, shops must sell bikes where the right brake controls the rear, and the left controls the front. The end user can change it, but it must be assembled in that manner. Same reason most showroom bikes have reflectors.

Of course these laws aren't always followed, because they're mostly stupid and not worth enforcing.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

CHUM said:


> when actively using the front release it completely for anything that will dramatically slow your front wheel down until you clear the obstacle....even if it's only for a split second....


+1


JonathanGennick said:


> The secret to using the front brake is to brace yourself against the bars and push back against the deceleration forces. Don't just be passive and sit there. Brace. Shift your weight back as needed.


You can also shift your weight down. Timed right, it can push the bike at the ground, increasing available traction and also helping to keep the rear end down.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I ran into a suggestion on another thread to try to center over the pedals when descending, and even push into them for braking.

I find I get a lot more braking power if I do this than if I brace against the handlebar, and I can still flick the front end around if I need to. Not that I'm always consistent, of course...


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## tshulthise (Apr 23, 2010)

AndrwSwitch said:


> I ran into a suggestion on another thread to try to center over the pedals when descending, and even push into them for braking.
> 
> I find I get a lot more braking power if I do this than if I brace against the handlebar, and I can still flick the front end around if I need to. Not that I'm always consistent, of course...


If you mean "balance over the pedals" rather than geometrically center over the pedals then you are correct. You should stay balanced on the pedals all the time. So, when you are decelerating that means you have to move your center of gravity back to keep from pushing or pulling on the handle bars.

Keeping your weight balanced on your pedals allows you to use your rear brake as much as the front since both tires have the same force applied to the ground.

To practice, get going about 10mph on dirt or asphalt and apply both brakes while shifting your weight back and down. Keep doing this until you can brake pretty hard without having to apply much force to the handle bars (push or pull). You will find that during the heavy stopping you will be way back. As your deceleration slows your weight will shift forward slowly. Picture a gage on your handle bars that measures forward and rearward force. Try to balance on the pedals so that bar gage is always reading zero (may not be possible on high traction surfaces). Then modulate both brakes without skidding.

NOTE: This is for straight line braking only. Braking through turns is a different story.


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## hardwarz (Jun 12, 2009)

96p993 said:


> Has anyone changed the positioning?


Since the front derailleur is on the left, it makes sense why the front brake lever is on the left too. I changed my brake positions too. Only ones that will be annoyed by it is people that ride motorcycles. It won't matter to others.


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## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

CHUM said:


> rear for control....front to stop


Ding. The rear is more of a trim while cornering. Use the front brake to stop.

If you're grabbing your front brake while cornering you're greatly increasing the odds of your front wheel washing out.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

CHUM said:


> it's called 'moto style'.....and is fun to watch when your friends jump on your bike for a spin....


"it's called 'moto style'.....and is fun to watch when your friends jump on your bike for a spin...."

PRICELESS!!!!


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## Dan GSR (Apr 29, 2010)

i run my lines backwards, also ride motorcycles
and i agree rear is for control, front is for stopping


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## ou2mame (Apr 23, 2010)

96p993 said:


> This might be dumb but I have ridden motorcycles for years. When I got my SS I realized the brake lever positions were backwards from a motorcycle (right lever is rear on bicycle)...Needless to say the back brake is at my feet on a motorcycle but it kinda messes with my head...Am I the only one who has noticed? Any reason for left hand front, right hand back? Has anyone changed the positioning?
> 
> Am I losing my mind??


i get really screwed up sometimes because of this haha that's funny.. i was just out the other day and kept expecting the wrong things to happen with my braking


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## manmythlegend (May 21, 2012)

Still terrified of front brakes since the great Endo incident of '88.

I think what keeps me from proper braking is the concept that worse case scenario I lose my rear traction and skid out theres at least a chance I can catch or control myself. Worse case scenario of flipping over handle bars there doesnt seem to be any escape once that starts.


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

96p993 said:


> This might be dumb but I have ridden motorcycles for years. When I got my SS I realized the brake lever positions were backwards from a motorcycle (right lever is rear on bicycle)...Needless to say the back brake is at my feet on a motorcycle but it kinda messes with my head...Am I the only one who has noticed? Any reason for left hand front, right hand back? Has anyone changed the positioning?
> 
> Am I losing my mind??


i swap the brakes on all my bicycles. the last thing i want in my head when on the freeway is left hand for stopping.


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## sanjuro (Sep 29, 2004)

First is that all advice from Sheldon Brown's site, whether mechanical or skills, is geared toward road bikes. 

With that in mind, before I started riding mountain bikes, I would say more than 90% of my braking came from the front brake, a disaster when I did start riding on the dirt. 

Not that it matters unless you start riding road, but road caliper brakes are not as strong as disc or v-brakes, so grabbing a bunch of front brake is almost necessary to make an emergency stop.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

I'm definitely a front brake-primary rider. Nobody's holding a gun to my head and making me grab a whole bunch of brake all at once, or stay firmly planted on my saddle. I squeeze the brake gently until I get the stopping power I want and if I'm on trails that require me to use the brake, I'm probably also off the saddle, allowing me to get further back and/or lower and not flip the bike.

When I first got my hydraulic disc brakes, that wasn't necessarily true. I'd had Avid BB5s before, and they were pretty tolerant of grabbing a whole bunch of brake. Elixirs with organic pads are a lot grabbier, and my fork was flexy enough to make all sorts of weird effects. Made me learn to brake with a little more finesse in a hurry. Of course, I switched to metallic pads when I wore 'em out, and I like that better, for me.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

sanjuro said:


> First is that all advice from Sheldon Brown's site, whether mechanical or skills, is geared toward road bikes.
> 
> With that in mind, before I started riding mountain bikes, I would say more than 90% of my braking came from the front brake, a disaster when I did start riding on the dirt.
> 
> Not that it matters unless you start riding road, but road caliper brakes are not as strong as disc or v-brakes, so grabbing a bunch of front brake is almost necessary to make an emergency stop.


Hah you can say that again.....

All of my emergency stops....(where I have chosen to brake in a straight line).....

I have ended up doing a stoppeee and it is 100% front brake in that situation.


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

manmythlegend said:


> Still terrified of front brakes since the great Endo incident of '88.
> 
> I think what keeps me from proper braking is the concept that worse case scenario I lose my rear traction and skid out theres at least a chance I can catch or control myself. Worse case scenario of flipping over handle bars there doesnt seem to be any escape once that starts.


if your going fast lean back & let go of the front brake. you might still crash but it ceased to be an over the bars event. you dont get much reaction time. but trust me a lowside is generally less painful than a faceplant, and a faceplant is generally less painfull than tboning something.

if your going slow then just ride it to a stoppie. ( takes a little practice).

in my head the biggest trick to avoiding them is keeping even pressure on the front tire. loss of traction due to hitting a slick spot or the front end coming off the ground for a split second are the major causes of front wheel lockups during hard braking. ( well a stick through the spokes probably is up there) i cant remember the last time i locked up the front when i managed to avoid major changes in surface ( like transitioning from dirt to grass or wet manhole covers.


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## jsamuelson (May 14, 2012)

Great thread.


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## sanjuro (Sep 29, 2004)

As for mountain biking techniques, there are several concepts that need to be balanced when you ride.

1. Front brake supplies 75% of your braking power.
2. Applying hard front brake while turning is a disaster.
3. More braking means less suspension.
4. Panic braking is bad.


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## pfox90 (Aug 8, 2010)

I hardly ever use the front brake, maybe just to look over a line beginning on a steep downhill and that is about it. I try not to brake that much, I still have to, but it really does take away all your momentum if your just grabbing a handful of brake in every corner.


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## sanjuro (Sep 29, 2004)

pfox90 said:


> I hardly ever use the front brake, maybe just to look over a line beginning on a steep downhill and that is about it. I try not to brake that much, I still have to, but it really does take away all your momentum if your just grabbing a handful of brake in every corner.


You should specify exactly what you mean about "hardly using the front brake".

For example, I usually bomb down my trails, and I barely use my front brake. A beginner may not feel so comfortable on the same trail, so they need to know how to apply both brakes correctly to control speed.

As a beginner, I would slowly roll up to a trail, applying strong front and rear braking before hitting the drop point.

After I started rolling down, I would apply firm rear brake and feather the front brake. This would minimize my front skidding while giving me the maximum braking on a steep descent.

If I was about to hit a small technical section, I might release my front brake so I can have maximum suspension.


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## pfox90 (Aug 8, 2010)

sanjuro said:


> You should specify exactly what you mean about "hardly using the front brake".


It means I very seldom even touch my front brake.


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## sjhiker (Apr 25, 2008)

One technique I use is that when I'm apply considerable brake, I drop my heels. If you're on flats your feet don't shift on the pedals themselves, but I push my heels downwards. Thereby giving me more to push against since I'm farther back, often "in the air" over the rear wheel. This way your feet are always perpendicular to your legs.

One other thing, if you're in loose soil/sand/gravel, go easy on the brakes, because if you lock up the front, Sir Isaac Newton is controlling your bike and inertia will keep you going in a straight line.


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## manmythlegend (May 21, 2012)

Slozomby said:


> if your going fast lean back & let go of the front brake. you might still crash but it ceased to be an over the bars event. you dont get much reaction time. but trust me a lowside is generally less painful than a faceplant, and a faceplant is generally less painfull than tboning something.
> 
> if your going slow then just ride it to a stoppie. ( takes a little practice).
> 
> in my head the biggest trick to avoiding them is keeping even pressure on the front tire. loss of traction due to hitting a slick spot or the front end coming off the ground for a split second are the major causes of front wheel lockups during hard braking. ( well a stick through the spokes probably is up there) i cant remember the last time i locked up the front when i managed to avoid major changes in surface ( like transitioning from dirt to grass or wet manhole covers.


See my last few rides after reading about front braking ive implemented it far more than before. However this is all assuming one has time or control. 
Ex. If Im commuting and a car door opens or some other obstacle comes out of nowhere where I need to slam on the brakes at an even mild speed I fear involving the front brake will result in over the bars ,or at least back end flying up.
((I have zero physics to back that up just some botched BMX incidents which wouldnt apply here))

Also Is there an actual article showing the front brake power ? People post anywhere from 60-90% Front braking power. Im curious as to how it actually works especially with suspension possibly absorbing some of that potential momentum. Would 29ers be more or less likely to endo like that ?


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

It depends on the situation for me and just comes down to practice and experience. I simply use as much front brake as traction allows, the rear makes up for the rest. Simple as that! I learned pretty much all of it through 16 years of motocross racing and hare scramble trails on my dirtbike though. Pretty much all of the braking skills transferred over to mountain biking easily and I didn't have much of an issue getting used to the front brake on the left.

Going into the downhill hair pin turns at my local trails I loft the rear tire slightly and its just skimming the dirt so at that point its 100% front brake and the rear doesn't have any effect other than locking the rear wheel. If the front tire starts locking because there isn't enough traction than I have to release the front brake and make up for it with the rear brake. If its mid corner braking its done mostly with the rear brake because a rear slide is much more forgiving mid corner.

There is one exception and that's keeping the brakes cool on long descents. The cheap stock brakes on my GT Avalanche 3.0 heat up pretty easily so I try to alternate between front and rear so they each have some time to cool.


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## Fajita Dave (Mar 22, 2012)

manmythlegend said:


> See my last few rides after reading about front braking ive implemented it far more than before. However this is all assuming one has time or control.
> Ex. If Im commuting and a car door opens or some other obstacle comes out of nowhere where I need to slam on the brakes at an even mild speed I fear involving the front brake will result in over the bars ,or at least back end flying up.
> ((I have zero physics to back that up just some botched BMX incidents which wouldnt apply here))
> 
> Also Is there an actual article showing the front brake power ? People post anywhere from 60-90% Front braking power. Im curious as to how it actually works especially with suspension possibly absorbing some of that potential momentum. Would 29ers be more or less likely to endo like that ?


There is no set % of how much front brake you should use. If you want to stop as fast as possible the only way to do it is use as much front brake as physically possible. That means until the rear tire lifts of the ground or until the front tire locks. If the front tire locks the remaining braking force can be put to the rear to try and help you slow down faster. If the rear tire comes off the ground you have to let pressure off the front brake to keep you from flipping over the bars, so ideally the rear tire should barely be skimming the ground.


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

manmythlegend said:


> Also Is there an actual article showing the front brake power ? People post anywhere from 60-90% Front braking power. Im curious as to how it actually works especially with suspension possibly absorbing some of that potential momentum. Would 29ers be more or less likely to endo like that ?


heres a bunch of math: http://www.mtbresource.com/PDF Files/BrakingPhysics.pdf?Download=Download

the easy version. when you brake your weight shifts forward. you will stop faster applying brakes where your weight is.

gotta be gentle with the front. it doesnt have abs so you have to get a feel for how much brake is too much. feathering helps avoid lockups when its loose or wet.


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## FX4 (Jun 12, 2012)

LOL...this thread is just like being on a motorcycle forum. Guys terrified of the front brake yet it supplies the most braking power and provides control. FWIW It's worth I shoot for a 70/30 split. At times trail braking has its place but generally best results are achieved using both brakes with an emphasis on the front.


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## Rustyy117 (May 29, 2012)

@OP, You'll have much better control if you learn to use the front brake when appropriate, if your scared of using it then you might want to try riding along a safe bit of flat trail at a relatively low speed and try squeezing the front brake lever slightly and get a feel for the modulation, do that a few times and you'll build your confidence up with using the front brake.

To Endo, you'd have to have your weight right at the front of the bike (basically leaning over the handlebars) and REALLY pull back the front brake lever, So just make sure your weight is over the seat or when going down hill over the back wheel and use as much pressure on the front brake lever as you need.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Slozomby said:


> heres a bunch of math: http://www.mtbresource.com/PDF Files/BrakingPhysics.pdf?Download=Download
> 
> the easy version. when you brake your weight shifts forward. you will stop faster applying brakes where your weight is.
> 
> gotta be gentle with the front. it doesnt have abs so you have to get a feel for how much brake is too much. feathering helps avoid lockups when its loose or wet.


sorry there is no fixed percentage it depends strongly on what the terrain is like and where the corners are...

Lots of times it is 100% front Lots of times it is 100% back....Most of the time it is somewhere in the middle....Perhaps favouring the front...


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## Ahil (Apr 6, 2012)

you can also practice trying to braking at the limit on the front in different surfaces to gain more confidence


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*I hope...*

Given that this thread was started over a year ago, I hope the OP has figured out how to properly use his front brake.


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## Ahil (Apr 6, 2012)

^ LOL.. one can only assume..


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

jeffscott said:


> sorry there is no fixed percentage it depends strongly on what the terrain is like and where the corners are...
> 
> Lots of times it is 100% front Lots of times it is 100% back....Most of the time it is somewhere in the middle....Perhaps favouring the front...


he asked for the math. that is the correct math.

did i say there was a set number. the % varies on weight distribution so if you hang your butt out past the saddle you can get better braking from the rear but you are actively working against the forces in play. if your front tire isnt on the ground then it obviously wont stop you. if your concerned about a washout then you will opt to sacrifice braking power for control by using the rear wheel more. . however this doesnt change the fact that you will always gain more braking power from where your weight is and most of the time that is the front wheel. if you can prove that wrong i know a lot of places that would love to give you a job.

what you are talking about involves other factors, conserving momentum, safety, and the hard to quantify yee-ha factor. whether its faster overall to hard brake before the turn or drag your rear around it doesnt change the math of braking it adds in multiple brake and acceleration and direction changes.


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Slozomby said:


> he asked for the math. that is the correct math.
> 
> did i say there was a set number. the % varies on weight distribution so if you hang your butt out past the saddle you can get better braking from the rear but you are actively working against the forces in play. if your front tire isnt on the ground then it obviously wont stop you. if your concerned about a washout then you will opt to sacrifice braking power for control by using the rear wheel more. . however this doesnt change the fact that you will always gain more braking power from where your weight is and most of the time that is the front wheel. if you can prove that wrong i know a lot of places that would love to give you a job.
> 
> what you are talking about involves other factors, conserving momentum, safety, and the hard to quantify yee-ha factor. whether its faster overall to hard brake before the turn or drag your rear around it doesnt change the math of braking it adds in multiple brake and acceleration and direction changes.


Well math models reality....you point out that there is no fixed percentage front to back and it depends on conditions etc.....(the math should reflect that reality)....Otherwise it is just an overly simplitic model.


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

jeffscott said:


> Well math models reality....you point out that there is no fixed percentage front to back and it depends on conditions etc.....(the math should reflect that reality)....Otherwise it is just an overly simplitic model.


that would be the sections labeled :
Dynamic Impacts of Vehicles Experiencing Deceleration
Effects of Weight Transfer on Tire Output


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*Yeah, but...*



Slozomby said:


> that would be the sections labeled :
> Dynamic Impacts of Vehicles Experiencing Deceleration
> Effects of Weight Transfer on Tire Output


The point is that you can give a mathematic answer in a lab because you can control 100% of the variables (mu, etc.) but you can't give a mathematic answer on the trails because you have no idea what the variables are that dictate braking percentages.

On a firm packed trail with hero dirt, I use a lot of front brake. On loose soil, I use less. Going downhill I use a lot of front brake, unless the trail is wet. What are the percentages? You can't tell me because you don't know the specifics of my examples.

There isn't a math equation that can answer this particular question because there are too many unknowns.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

Ken in KC said:


> The point is that you can give a mathematic answer in a lab because you can control 100% of the variables (mu, etc.) but you can't give a mathematic answer on the trails because you have no idea what the variables are that dictate braking percentages.
> 
> On a firm packed trail with hero dirt, I use a lot of front brake. On loose soil, I use less. Going downhill I use a lot of front brake, unless the trail is wet. What are the percentages? You can't tell me because you don't know the specifics of my examples.
> 
> There isn't a math equation that can answer this particular question because there are too many unknowns.


This is getting interesting. Let's see whose "physics" is better. LOL. 
I think both of you have valid points. The trail is dynamic, and there are forces being applied in many directions as the position of your bike changes. The one constant is gravity. 
Trust me it works 9.81 m/s ^2


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

Ken in KC said:


> The point is that you can give a mathematic answer in a lab because you can control 100% of the variables (mu, etc.) but you can't give a mathematic answer on the trails because you have no idea what the variables are that dictate braking percentages.
> 
> On a firm packed trail with hero dirt, I use a lot of front brake. On loose soil, I use less. Going downhill I use a lot of front brake, unless the trail is wet. What are the percentages? You can't tell me because you don't know the specifics of my examples.
> 
> There isn't a math equation that can answer this particular question because there are too many unknowns.


yes there is plenty of math out there to determine brake force vs traction over a given surface at a given angle with a given weight distribution, its constantly changing. thus the fairly wide range of numbers you see for "braking power ratio". . its not worth going into here. basically after a while you figure out what your ratio for a given scenario and do it subconsciously . that's called feel.

when you have a computer do it for you its called abs.


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## Lateralus1082 (Jun 28, 2012)

I need to get over just using my rear brake


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

Lateralus1082 said:


> I need to get over just using my rear brake


Actually, Ou could determine it,but you would have to go thought the trail and break it down. By each of the materials that your tires come into contact with. They have a "coefficient of friction..". The brakes pads included, plus the rolling resistance of your tires. [EDIT: don't forget that you'll need to use trig functions for going up or down an incline]

Then you would need too calculate you acceleration and velocities throughout the trail some will be positive, some negative (braking). from there it will become a statistics problem, collecting all of the averages when you brake. It would take time but it can be done.


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

dhosinski said:


> Actually, Ou could determine it,but you would have to go thought the trail and break it down. By each of the materials that your tires come into contact with. They have a "coefficient of friction..". The brakes pads included, plus the rolling resistance of your tires. [EDIT: don't forget that you'll need to use trig functions for going up or down an incline]
> 
> Then you would need too calculate you acceleration and velocities throughout the trail some will be positive, some negative (braking). from there it will become a statistics problem, collecting all of the averages when you brake. It would take time but it can be done.


people need to get over this fixation with an exact number. the point here is that there is alot of braking power in the front. so if you want to learn to safely stop fast you should learn how and when to use the front and rear brakes.

even if we spent the time to come up with an optimal ratio for a specific person + bike on a specific section of track by recording the passes hundreds of times. no human will be able to consistently hit that ratio on demand while maintaining the same weight balance and the same line. you can get close enough by developing a feel for your brakes without even doing the math.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

Slozomby said:


> people need to get over this fixation with an exact number. the point here is that there is alot of braking power in the front. so if you want to learn to safely stop fast you should learn how and when to use the front and rear brakes.
> 
> even if we spent the time to come up with an optimal ratio for a specific person + bike on a specific section of track by recording the passes hundreds of times. no human will be able to consistently hit that ratio on demand while maintaining the same weight balance and the same line. you can get close enough by developing a feel for your brakes without even doing the math.


The suggestions here are to make mtn'g safer. Youll be much better off if you take the time to learn rather than question what is being suggested.

Hit the teails and have a great time


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## CHUM (Aug 30, 2004)

this thread has gotten funny.

to reiterate:
- the rear brake is to control speed.
- the front brake is to stop (for the most part).

Front and Rear are used together much of the time.

Shift your weight slightly back when using your front brake....shift less for lighter front brake, shift back more for heavier front braking.

Do not use your front brake on anything that would slow your front wheel down (roots, ledges, big rocks, etc..) until you get the hang of it.

Simply release until the obstacle is clear then re-engage. You can do this 3 or 4 times per second if you are hauling balls down a root strewn section

You will not flip over and die if you use your Front brake as suggested above.

You will flip over (and might die) if you 'Panic Grab' your front brake...especially in sand (ugh)


go out and practice stopping quickly (on dirt) by using both brakes simultaneously - stay neutral to slightly back with elbows flared out a bit in the 'attack' position. you will be stunned how fast you can stop.

Almost NEVER EVER NEVER 'grab' your brakes - it's a smooth pull...sometimes a faster pull than others.

my .02


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## Edirty6 (Jun 23, 2012)

one thing that i did to help me learn when to use them was when i went over my handlebars in the woods on a steep hill. i realized that i was pulling the levers all the way in stead of easing on them, at a time like that though its a natural reaction to want to pull them to stop from hitting something. 

the solution i did was loosen the front brake tension just enough so that it can never be locked out. that way when i do use it it slows me down but it does flip me. im a back brake rider because the kinda riding i do, i prefer to stay away from the brakes


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## Slozomby (Mar 22, 2012)

dhosinski said:


> The suggestions here are to make mtn'g safer. Youll be much better off if you take the time to learn rather than question what is being suggested.
> 
> Hit the teails and have a great time


where have i shot down anything suggested here other than peoples desire to come up with a real number.

and how will knowing that over a given section of trail 37.5 newtons on the front brake and 12 on the rear is optimal ( completely made up numbers). will anyone actually be able to apply exactly that amount of force? nope. how does it make you any safer? it doesnt, but you can get close to it purely on brake feel. and good brake feel will make you safer.

i've given suggestions, explained the physics in rough terms and provided a mechanism so they can do it themselves.. and still folks are harping on a number than changes and even if they had it they couldnt actually apply that knowledge.

the percentages people have given are lab results based on a flat hard surface. and they are generalities. they are identical to the numbers you see on motorcycles and cars and every other system that uses friction to counter wheel rotation. the basic math is identical.

feel for the brakes is the best we can do ( unless you figure out an abs system for my bike that doesn't weigh much more than my current setup). and it takes practice to develop that feel.

edit: 
this is almost as bad as the moto riders than bag on abs. even though study after study produce the same results. which are even at pro level abs will stop you faster than non abs.


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## dhosinski (Nov 24, 2009)

Slozomby said:


> where have i shot down anything suggested here other than peoples desire to come up with a real number.
> 
> and how will knowing that over a given section of trail 37.5 newtons on the front brake and 12 on the rear is optimal ( completely made up numbers). will anyone actually be able to apply exactly that amount of force? nope. how does it make you any safer? it doesnt, but you can get close to it purely on brake feel. and good brake feel will make you safer.
> 
> ...


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## anthonyk (Feb 15, 2012)

Edirty6 said:


> the solution i did was loosen the front brake tension just enough so that it can never be locked out. that way when i do use it it slows me down but it does flip me. im a back brake rider because the kinda riding i do, i prefer to stay away from the brakes


I wouldn't recommend this approach. You're reducing your braking capacity, and someday you may come upon a situation where you need it all. Learning how to get comfortable with a fully functional front brake is the best approach by far.

For what it's worth, I use my front brake way more than my rear (on bicycles and motorcycles) and in 20 years I've never been over the bars from just applying too much brake. With decent technique, you can generate a whole lot of front wheel braking force without coming close to going over the bars. Modern disk brakes are probably less forgiving of bad technique than the old cantilevers I first learned on, but it still just comes down to practice.


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## offroadcmpr (Apr 21, 2012)

I would be ok riding with no back brake. I would hate riding without a front brake though. A few weeks ago I got some fork oil on my front rotor before a ride. That whole ride was miserable. I had to start slowing down way earlier than usual. And I was never able to get going quite as fast because I knew I couldn't slow down quickly either.

The only time I have worries about going over the handlebars is if it when the bike goes down a small ledge or steep section where the bike is is pointed downwards 45 degrees or so. Then any bump or flat section feels like it might throw me over. 

But if my options are risk going over the handlebars or riding off a 15 foot ledge into cactus because I can't stop I will take going over the handlebars anytime. 

If you are really worried about going over, start with light pressure on the front and ramp up the pressure until you are either decelerating fast enough or feel the back end getting too light. It should only take a second to ramp it up. At the same time keep on putting pressure on the rear brake until you feel it is about to skid out. You would be surprised how much force you have to do to go over. Especially if you weight your body back. Once you get a feel for the brakes you don't even have to think about it.


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## rando6432 (Jun 30, 2012)

You definitely want to learn to use the front brake, but it requires a wide variety of skills, like reading terrain, control, body position, etc.

The easiest way to build skill safely is to start with the bike upright on asphalt and get used to applying the front brake in increasing amounts until the rear wheel starts to lift slightly. Go slow so you don't fly over the bars. This will give you a sense of how much brake to apply in optimal traction. Then hit the trails. Practice in a variety of trail conditions keeping the bike upright -- but try to stop braking just short of locking up the front wheel.

Then start leaning the bike more. You still want to go slow in case you lock up the wheel because you're probably going down (unless you have good body position and quick reflexes).

As you start to lean the bike, unclip your inside foot but keep it on the pedal. If the bike starts to slide out, you'll have your foot ready to put down.

Hope this helps.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

I hope you are not suggesting that people should brake while turning.

Allways try to slow down before you turn. During the turn you may need to feather the brakes to keep the speed down or control the bike.

There's only so much traction in a tyre. If you are braking, you are using up some of the traction.

When braking hard, go like you are going to sit on the rear wheel. That keeps the rear wheel down and actually increases traction momentarily.


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## rando6432 (Jun 30, 2012)

perttime said:


> I hope you are not suggesting that people should brake while turning.
> 
> Allways try to slow down before you turn. During the turn you may need to feather the brakes to keep the speed down or control the bike.
> 
> ...


Having a FULL set of braking skills means learning how to use the brakes in every condition and situation, including leaned over in a turn.


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

rando6432 said:


> Having a FULL set of braking skills means learning how to use the brakes in every condition and situation, including leaned over in a turn.


AND... it includes awareness that there are situations where you should not brake - or where you should be very careful with your braking.


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## Grapdaddy (Jul 5, 2012)

Thanks, good info


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## dynamodayak (Jul 6, 2012)

Edirty6 said:


> one thing that i did to help me learn when to use them was when i went over my handlebars in the woods on a steep hill. i realized that i was pulling the levers all the way in stead of easing on them, at a time like that though its a natural reaction to want to pull them to stop from hitting something.
> 
> the solution i did was loosen the front brake tension just enough so that it can never be locked out. that way when i do use it it slows me down but it does flip me. im a back brake rider because the kinda riding i do, i prefer to stay away from the brakes


I like this approach.


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## mwokram (Jul 10, 2012)

very useful thread


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