# Berd spokes.



## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Maybe a year ago I became aware of a new technology being used to make bicycle spokes.

By and large spokes are made from steel these days, primarily because steel makes for such a great blend of weight, cost, and durability. Experimentation with aluminum and composites has happened and will continue to -- that's how the breed improves.

Spokemakers have, in recent years, embraced straight pull spokes (of steel and aluminum) for reasons of, um, marketing, best I can tell. They haven't been proven to do anything better than j-bend spokes, other than introduce a confounding choice onto an unsuspecting and largely uneducated public. I think the conversation probably went something like this:

Marketing hack A: _"How do we sell more of something without actually improving it?"_

Marketing hack B: _"Divide, confuse, and conquer? Oh, plus new colorways!"_

My perspective is that straight pull spokes are a "solution" to a non-existent problem.

Ahem. Did I digress?!

I'm writing today about Berd spokes. You can read their shpiel here -- it's the same stuff I read when I first heard about them. The reading isn't particularly compelling, but it's informative enough if you pay attention. Basically, these spokes knock a good chunk of mass off of any wheel when compared with steel spokes, they don't give up any strength or stiffness in so doing, and they add a measure of dampness to a wheel.



Lighter, stronger, _and_ more comfortable? What's the catch?

Glad you asked. The catch is in cost per spoke, as well as in increased labor time to build each wheel. Which also adds more cost to each wheel. Basically, a wheelset built with these spokes is expensive relative to any other spoke available.

Your next question is undoubtedly some variation on "How much?" immediately followed by "Are they worth it?"

The answers are "quite a bit" and "it depends".

Let's not get ahead of ourselves...

My ears perked up when I learned that the source material is Dyneema, which I know and trust from the HMG packs that Jeny and I have used for years. The stuff is incredibly light and unbelievably abrasion resistant. I know there are a lot of other attributes that are important in a pack, but for me those are the big two. After years and years of abusing our HMG packs -- bushwhacking through alder and devils club in AK, grinding and dragging them through dry scrub oak and wet slot canyons in the Colorado Plateau -- and them being dirty but otherwise none the worse for wear, I've come to think of Dyneema as an incredibly impressive material.

"Sure", you're saying, "for a pack". But, good enough for bicycle spokes?

Read on.

It takes a good chunk longer to build a wheel with these spokes. Some of that is in the lacing process, as the loop at the head of the spoke needs to be pulled through the spoke hole in the hub, and this isn't as easy as it sounds. Then you slip a little 'rod' of Dyneema through that loop, pull the spoke tight by hand, then move on to the next one. It isn't complicated -- is actually anything but -- it just takes a little more time than you're used to. Home builders that love the process of building their own wheels will get to spend more time enjoying that process.



There is additional time required in the tensioning process, because the material these spokes are made from has inherent stretch. Basically you need to bring the wheel up to ~final tension, do some stress relief cycles, tension it again, stress relieve again, tension once more, then hang it up for a few days and let the spokes elongate. You do not finish a wheel built with these spokes in one sitting.



Come back to it a few days later, get it true/round/dished to spec, *then* balance it out at final tension. The guys at Berd will help you with the nuances of your spoke calc, and they'll also provide numbers appropriate to whichever tensiometer you're using. Expect to take 2+ hours on your first one, then maybe a little less on each subsequent. I can't see how you'll ever get build time equivalent to a steel spoked wheel, nor do I think it's important that that happens.



I only have _hundreds_ of miles on these spokes, on two different bikes, so the jury is still out on long term durability. Once I have _thousands_ of miles I'll feel more confident in saying what they can and cannot handle as far as abrasion and impact.






I did take a sharp shears to one, under tension, just to see how it would react, as sort of a crude abrasion test. It took several hacks at the thin section of the spoke to get it to cut, and even then it wasn't like you could cut immediately through the whole thing -- there were several strands that just wouldn't cut completely without several hacks and a lot of effort. In the video above I am not 'lillydipping' with the scissors -- I'm really cutting hard. The result of this crude experiment is confidence inspiring when considering sharp schist or shale plates that get thrown up, or even just incidental contact with the local square-edged sandstone and granite. Just one indicator, but an impressive one.



The ride is subtly different from anything else I've ridden before. I should clarify that on my first build with these I took an existing wheelset using DT 240s hubs, Derby carbon rims, and DT SuperComp spokes -- a wheelset that I'd ridden over 2k miles already -- and cut out the SuperComps, then relaced with the Berd's. I even re-used the same tires, at the same pressures, such that the only thing that had changed was the spoke material. This single change created a net loss of 110g per wheel. Not a misprint.

I could call them "damp" but you might get the idea that that means "slow". I could call them "quiet" but you might misconstrue that as "muted". Nothing about the ride is _extraordinary_ relative to a normal steel spoked wheel, it's just a _little_ different. I am princess and the pea when it comes to minutiae like this, and it's possible that what I feel when riding the Berd spokes just won't be noticeable to you. Put differently, there is no discernible difference in overall wheel stiffness in any plane, no change in how the overall package handles what you're throwing at it. They are still stiff, strong wheels -- they just got a lot lighter and now seem to absorb more vibration from the trail.

I'm not a hard-core numbers guy so I can't say that they make me feel x% fresher at the end of a ride. And I'm not fast so I can't say they make me faster. But I can say that I like the feel -- enough that I'm lacing another set for myself. The absorption of trail vibrations is noticeable enough that, were I still an endurance nerd out chasing sunsets, I'd emphatically be using these for both training and racing.

I'm building with them for customers effective immediately. Expect to gasp audibly at the price -- $8 per spoke plus extra labor time, on top of hubs, rims, and (probably) shipping.

Don't hesitate with questions.
​


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I've been looking at these for a while now. When they originally came out, before they were really on the market, they were saying that they'd be offering them at CX-Ray/Aerolite prices. 

I saw their recent updates, have seen some of the German brands starting to build wheels with them, etc. Saw the prices, too. Obviously the weight loss was compelling, but the price was hard to swallow. 

Might try building up a single front wheel with them to see how I like them. If all goes well, maybe build up a matching rear.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*Threaded connection...how is this attached to threads and what's max tension spec??*

Looks like "special" string...can you say something more on the build peculiarities pls...looks quite a bit thicker than any hub drillings. Some of the photos didn't show up, do these use nip's, if not how is tension controlled??


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Why not rear first? I say that simply because I think you'd notice the benefits (both weight and dampness) more there.


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## ungod (Apr 16, 2011)

Cool idea. Looking forward to the price coming down


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

you need better scissors


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

dundundata said:


> you need better scissors


You need better reading comprehension.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Deerhill said:


> Looks like "special" string...can you say something more on the build peculiarities pls...looks quite a bit thicker than any hub drillings. Some of the photos didn't show up, do these use nip's, if not how is tension controlled??


Normal nips, although because of how/where you have to hold the spoke to control windup, you more or less need to true/tension with a thru-the-rim spoke wrench.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

mikesee said:


> Why not rear first? I say that simply because I think you'd notice the benefits (both weight and dampness) more there.


Got a front 240 laying around.

Although, I also have a 240 laced to a tubular road rim that hasn't touched a CX course in many moons...

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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Ok I can see the photo now...rigid or ht ride back to back swapping wheels would clear up any questionable "spoke damping" affect, if any. 

The stainless steel-to-Berd connection is where I'm still scratching my head a little. What is max tension? edit- and are they saying only carbon rims for these Berd? Aluminum rims over carbon seem the way to go for a more compliant ride imhe


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## geraldooka (Jul 3, 2012)

@mikesee Great write up, tempting to try out on the rear of my ht. Have you built up any wheels using Otsos rims? In particular their LITHIC CARBON 27.5+ RIM?


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Say a rear d killed a coupl'a spokes...do you think these could be threaded in there trailside, w/o removing cassette?


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

I like the light weight. When they are $2 per spoke we can talk.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Deerhill said:


> Say a rear d killed a coupl'a spokes...do you think these could be threaded in there trailside, w/o removing cassette?


Just looking at the pictures its hit or miss as to which spoke you break. Since cassettes have aluminum spiders and there is some space but if you get one thats inline with the spider you may not be able to.

If they were $2 a spoke Id have ordered some lol. $8 is insanely steep but looking close at the pics (mike has been discussing with us in another thread) I can see why. Not one part of these is made by readily available equipment. Its all specialized which is why. Probably talking an easy $100k in the tooling to produce these and the time it takes to make each spoke to desired length. My guess would be that a full wheel set of spokes can be rolled and cut faster than it does to just get a set of these cut to length. Then install the ends.

So I can see the costs, painfully steep but not unjustified.

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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Deerhill said:


> Say a rear d killed a coupl'a spokes...do you think these could be threaded in there trailside, w/o removing cassette?


I suppose it's possible if you have some tools with you, but not easy and not quick.

edit: On second thought, no -- not without removing cassette and maybe rotor, depending.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

geraldooka said:


> @mikesee Great write up, tempting to try out on the rear of my ht. Have you built up any wheels using Otsos rims? In particular their LITHIC CARBON 27.5+ RIM?


Nope, no Otso's yet.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Last year's thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/polymer-berd-spokes-1031870.html


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## Klaster_1 (Jan 7, 2018)

Oh boy, I can't wait to get my wheels relaced with Polylights. @mikesee, you mentioned several stress relief cycles during several days course, which does not align with the building manual that only suggest to stress relief spokes before final pass and to tension the spokes one day later. Did you find Berd's instructions insufficient or decided to play it safe and go along with your wheel building experience?


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*Glow in the dark..*



mikesee said:


> I suppose it's possible if you have some tools with you, but not easy and not quick.
> 
> edit: On second thought, no -- not without removing cassette and maybe rotor, depending.


A bigger loop could make for a trailside wheel fix in bfe(loop over top of the flange), so the spoke could tie thru the loop and hold itself in place w/o the little piece. Just need to poke the loop thru and fish it out...they definitely have an interesting look, wonder what colors will be available


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## Klaster_1 (Jan 7, 2018)

Deerhill said:


> wonder what colors will be available


You can have any color as long as it's white. At least for now.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Tangentially related, I've used a Fiberfix emergency spoke a couple of times on road bikes. https://www.adventurecycling.org/cyclosource-store/equipment/tools-accessories/sp/fiberfix-spoke/


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Lone Rager said:


> Tangentially related, I've used a Fiberfix emergency spoke a couple of times on road bikes. https://www.adventurecycling.org/cyclosource-store/equipment/tools-accessories/sp/fiberfix-spoke/


I thought of this immediately when I saw the Berd Spoke. Never thought of building a whole wheel with the stuff.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

There is a huge difference between that repair kit and these spokes, completely different material.

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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

How can these build a wheel as stiff as one built with stainless steel?


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

MikeDee said:


> How can these build a wheel as stiff as one built with stainless steel?


they cannot be as stiff

but it is largely irrelevant, wheel will stay centered, just feel a tad more forgiving


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

127.0.0.1 said:


> they cannot be as stiff
> 
> but it is largely irrelevant, wheel will stay centered, just feel a tad more forgiving


What about side loads? Would the wheel/rim bend? Seems to fly in the face of boost.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

MikeDee said:


> How can these build a wheel as stiff as one built with stainless steel?


Tension
It doesn't seem like it should work (in my brain) but if you've ever laced a wheel and felt how loose things are until the spokes are tensioned (and it doesn't take much)


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Lightweights are some of the stiffest wheels made (and most expensive) and they use a carbon/Kevlar spoke. 

I see no reason these can’t be as stiff as a steel spoked wheel.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Lightweights are some of the stiffest wheels made (and most expensive) and they use a carbon/Kevlar spoke.
> 
> I see no reason these can't be as stiff as a steel spoked wheel.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can't read German. If they use carbon in their spokes, carbon is stiffer than steel; kevlar not.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

You realize spoke material means absolutely nothing in that regard right? Its all about the tension compressing the rim and how the loads are spread through the spokes/rim. The only way spokes would effect the wheel build in that way is if they were stretching and contracting during riding. All that matters is that when wheel build is completed the spokes no longer elongate and cause loss of tension on other spokes.

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

MikeDee said:


> I can't read German. If they use carbon in their spokes, carbon is stiffer than steel; kevlar not.


Saying that carbon is stiffer than steel is not true. It CAN be stiffer than steel.

But, we're also talking about bodies under tension. Not chain stays or down tubes.

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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

RAKC Ind said:


> You realize spoke material means absolutely nothing in that regard right? Its all about the tension compressing the rim and how the loads are spread through the spokes/rim. The only way spokes would effect the wheel build in that way is if they were stretching and contracting during riding. All that matters is that when wheel build is completed the spokes no longer elongate and cause loss of tension on other spokes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Dude, you realize that you can only tension spokes so much. The rim has to be able to take the tension else it will crack.

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

MikeDee said:


> Dude, you realize that you can only tension spokes so much. The rim has to be able to take the tension else it will crack.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


And spoke tension, after a certain point (well below rim or spoke failure) has no impact on wheel stiffness.

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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

^ exactly. After a certain point it doesnt effect stiffness to any noticeable level. Once that point is reached all you are doing is pulling harder on the rim, the "stretch" of a spoke stops at a certain point.

Even rider/bike weight can matter. A 150lb rider can run a lower tension to get the same feel and strength of a said wheel than a 250lb guy can. 

Bicycle wheels are like a cable suspension bridge. When you put weight on the axle, the load is actually carried by pulling on the spokes at the top. The spokes at the bottom actually loose a little bit of tension. Basically spokes are nothing but a bunch of support cables. 

Also why when you install and inflate a tire to fully pressure if you check spoke tension it is actually lower.

So material used doesnt matter as long as its strong enough for the task and its fatigue life is long enough be useful in the application.

Technically you could build a wheel with large deep sea kevlar fishing line and it would be as stiff and strong initially as anything else. But its useful life is really short and almost no abrasion resistance. Same with using just basic steel cable. But same problems. Fatigue life as well as just service life in general.

Thats why stainless is the go to. Cheap, lasts a long time, corrosion resistant, any elongation during use comes returns to normal (elasticity) for its working life and is rather resistant to impacts and abrasions.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

RAKC Ind said:


> ^ exactly. After a certain point it doesnt effect stiffness to any noticeable level. Once that point is reached all you are doing is pulling harder on the rim, the "stretch" of a spoke stops at a certain point.
> 
> Even rider/bike weight can matter. A 150lb rider can run a lower tension to get the same feel and strength of a said wheel than a 250lb guy can.
> 
> ...


Yeah. If the Berd spokes are made of typical UHMW polyethylene, they should be ~15x more abrasion resistant than carbon steel. That's huge.

The problem with it is that it's really hard to tie into knots. Which is probably some of why the cost is so high.

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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

From what I can see in the pics (mike needs to chime in on this though)

Its not knotted though unless it is on the threaded end. Its ran into a loop with what appears to be a little nub that goes in the loop to hold it into the spoke holes on the hubs.

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

RAKC Ind said:


> Its not knotted though unless it is on the threaded end. Its ran into a loop with what appears to be a little nub that goes in the loop to hold it into the spoke holes on the hubs.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Sorry, what I meant to say is that, in order to make the loop on the hub end, they couldn't use a knot like a bowline or something; they had to weave it back into itself to make the loop. Which obviously makes manufacturing more difficult on their end.

If it was simply cutting lengths of cord and tying knots in the end, it would be a lot, lot cheaper.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Ya that makes sense. I dont know anything about how they do that with any form of thread or cable. But would make one question the strength at that one location, the loop. Basic knowledge would be the loop is made simply, thus only half as thick at that location than the rest. But we cant see whats under the outer layer. If it is indeed layered as it appears.

But what little reading Ive done on the material since mike started these threads it seems, though costly, they can do things standard steel cable or rope doesnt respond as well to in a design and manufacturing sense.

Rather intriguing just trying to get a clue what these guys did. But mike's been hammering on them and they are holding up. Even if the marketing is only half of the improvements they say, still could be the future of spoke design. Especially if they deal with crap getting in them like sticks and such better than steel spokes do.

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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm still curious how the threaded "spoke" attaches to the string part of the spoke. Also, what's the threaded part made of? I suggested to Berd that these be made black instead of white so they'll stay looking new longer. White Spinergy PBO spokes get stained black easily.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Check out the Wiki entries for UHMWPE. It's pretty amazing stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Lelandjt said:


> I'm still curious how the threaded "spoke" attaches to the string part of the spoke. Also, what's the threaded part made of? I suggested to Berd that these be made black instead of white so they'll stay looking new longer. White Spinergy PBO spokes get stained black easily.


Looking at pictures in some articles, it looks like it's actually the end of a spoke.

No clue on the other question, though. Fixed with some epoxy, perhaps? And, under tension, the woven part should grip the "spoke" portion with incredible force. Think Chinese finger trap made out of crazy strong fiber under 120kgf.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Quite a bit of extra grip it has on the flange there, I'd like to see how abrasive it is on the hub after some solid ride time


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## poynt (Jan 15, 2004)

so they work out at the same or depending on length a similar weight to the old Pillar Ti spokes. I assume their inherant flex will not be as good as the Berds and durability. So we are looking at 1g max savings per spoke over say the Sapims Supers, which are less than 1/2 the costs. Will wait a bit and see reviews and for the black ones to appear.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> Check out the Wiki entries for UHMWPE. It's pretty amazing stuff.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene


I meant the metal part. It looks like a piece of a normal spoke to me too but stainless or Ti? I'm a sailor and kite surfer so familiar with Dyneema.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

poynt said:


> so they work out at the same or depending on length a similar weight to the old Pillar Ti spokes. I assume their inherant flex will not be as good as the Berds and durability. So we are looking at 1g max savings per spoke over say the Sapims Supers, which are less than 1/2 the costs. Will wait a bit and see reviews and for the black ones to appear.


Are Sapim Supers lighter than CX-Rays? When I calculated weights I came up with saving something like 2g per spoke. Cutting a 1/4lb out of an already very light XC wheelset is impressive.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

They are less than 2g a spoke. That’s (less than) half of a CX-Ray. 




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## poynt (Jan 15, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> They are less than 2g a spoke. That's (less than) half of a CX-Ray.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thought cxrays(bladed) were 4.5g, supers were 3.5g and there is also a cx-super(bladed) as well at 3.6g. The Pillar mega SS are 3.5g as well. Berds seem to come out at 2.3-2.8g depending on lengths.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Lelandjt said:


> I meant the metal part. It looks like a piece of a normal spoke to me too but stainless or Ti? I'm a sailor and kite surfer so familiar with Dyneema.


The two key things here are the mechanical connection between the two materials, and their maximum tension specification...to me these are the 1st two bits of information that would get end user's/builders interest. Hopefully someone can shed some light


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> Saying that carbon is stiffer than steel is not true. It CAN be stiffer than steel.
> 
> But, we're also talking about bodies under tension. Not chain stays or down tubes.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just in case there is noob confusion:

Chain stays are usually under tension, as are down tubes unless you're cramming your front wheel into something.

I'm guessing LD meant seat stays and top tubes.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Zowie said:


> Just in case there is noob confusion:
> 
> Chain stays are usually under tension, as are down tubes unless you're cramming your front wheel into something.
> 
> I'm guessing LD meant seat stays and top tubes.


Now, I'm no engineer, but:

Isn't a chain stay being pulled, or compressed, towards the BB by chain tension?

Serious question. Genuinely curious.

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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> Now, I'm no engineer, but:
> 
> Isn't a chain stay being pulled, or compressed, towards the BB by chain tension?
> 
> ...


Yep, the right chain stay is pulled towards the BB if the force you put on the chain is greater than the tension exerted by your weight on the bike, at least as I understand it.

Also sounds like a great explanation of why the right CS tends to crack right in front of the dropout, but I was already digressing so I'll stop.

edit: I should point out that with the 'noob' comment I wasn't referring to you, but someone who may read this but not feel like jumping into the pool with us weirdos.


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## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

poynt said:


> I thought cxrays(bladed) were 4.5g, supers were 3.5g and there is also a cx-super(bladed) as well at 3.6g. The Pillar mega SS are 3.5g as well. Berds seem to come out at 2.3-2.8g depending on lengths.


Correct CX-Rays are 4.5 - 4.6 grams.
Superspokes - 3.6 grams.
Super CX-Rays - 3.7 grams. Scale pic.


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## poynt (Jan 15, 2004)

So $500+ to save say 55g, that's a $10/g. Fine if they are the last possible upgrade on an already ww bike, but I can think of other parts before to change. We will have to see longer term how they behave, stretch, slacking, re truing abrasion etc.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

poynt said:


> So $500+ to save say 55g, that's a $10/g. Fine if they are the last possible upgrade on an already ww bike, but I can think of other parts before to change. We will have to see longer term how they behave, stretch, slacking, re truing abrasion etc.


Well...

Sort of. If you're comparing them to Sapim Super Spokes, the retail price of those is similar, at least for the black ones.

So, instead of spending that same amount of money on Super Spokes, you could get spokes that appear to weigh 2.2g a piece, and might exceed steel in some desirable qualities.

Seems to me that you'd save most of 100g over Sapim Super Spokes for not much more money. If someone is spending $5.75 to $8.25 for spokes already, I think the Berd spokes would receive consideration as well.

Sapim Super Spoke - Bladed - Black

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## poynt (Jan 15, 2004)

True I am not saying I wouldn't be interested, as that is why we are all here in this thread. I have two sets of existing wheels with supers so spending that much to loose that much is harder than if I was starting a new wheelset from scratch, which if I did then I would like to maximise the benefits of weight loss and no doubt end up with new rims and lighter hubs as well. $$$$$

super spokes black are equivelant to $3.90 and cx supers are $4.80 online in Germany.


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## spsoon (Jul 28, 2008)

Curious to know how the interface to the steel bit at the end works. Will also be waiting for the price to come down.


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## poynt (Jan 15, 2004)

maybe in the near future we may see progression when other companies that see this solution and adapt or add their expertise to possible weak areas and improve say the thread interface or where the spoke interfaces the rim/hub etc. We all know 1st gen stuff always have their problems and over time solutions are found and prices drop..usually!


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I dont think the super spokes to berd spokes comparison is apples to apples. Super spokes in general are limited use, tiny spokes. They sacrifice a fair amount of strength to save weight. And not widly use in mountain bike applications due to overall smaller size.

Berd spokes are, even by a small amount, stronger than any butted spokes. No info on comparison to good straight gauge. But all tested the same way and testing proves stronger. Having seen how materials are tested for that application its very standardized so no falsifying that.

Need to look at the big picture. The only matter we are awaiting reports on is longevity.

Of course room for improvements, but if you look into any products that use the material, none are budget minded. I agree $8 a spoke is ridiculously steep. But waiting for prices to come down doesnt help. Actually quite the opposite. These have been around 2-3 yrs with no change in price.

How many of you though have wheel sets that are over $1000 a set? Full higher end bikes pushing $4-5k range? How many spent the insane price for Eagle 12s just to have 4 more teeth in the back? 

I dont fit any of those questions. Too rich for my blood. So many went crazy over eagle 12s, which was pushing $1000 for no real improvement except 4t bigger cog and shiny gold color. 

But $500+ to save a lot of weight in the spokes without sacrificing strength????? The most important place to be a weight weenie, the wheels. 

May not apply to any posters in this thread but I bet at least one will stop and think for a second. Especially if weight is always one of their biggest considerations for parts they buy.

As I said. There is important info we are waiting on that will take time. But price versus the weight shouldnt even be an issue considering the location of the weight. Im seriously considering saving up for these though and little has to do with the weight. Lack of vibrations being transmitted is enough to get my attention.

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## RagerXS (Jul 10, 2006)

Very cool. Similar in many ways to a design I've been working on for some time, but mine's not ready for introduction quite yet...

Fred


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## geraldooka (Jul 3, 2012)

I’d be curious to know if wheels built with these would require more maintenance. 


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

geraldooka said:


> I'd be curious to know if wheels built with these would require more maintenance.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why would you think they would?

The spokes should be just as, if not (far) more resilient than steel.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> Why would you think they would?
> 
> The spokes should be just as, if not (far) more resilient than steel.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


each spoke itself can 'inhale' if you will, dust dirt and water, and each individual spoke will see different levels of this

each spoke water load or dirt load will change the characteristic of that spoke

you rail a corner and some spokes will loosen and the wheel flexes, some dirt and dust will be able to settle into the weave on certain spokes and not others. once side load is removed, the spoke tensions back up again but now with added dirt inside. that tension is gonna be different than the moment before.

will it matter on one ride or ten or a thousands rides, maybe not but maybe yes.

got a wet spoke and it freezes, or dries out differently than the spoke next to it ?
all these little micro and macro changes, will change spoke tension in subtle ways. will they affect wheel ? maybe no, but maybe yes.

just a ton of variables in real world use of dyneema rope. if single strand on a reel used for hauling, or lashing, fine. who cares. but a system of 24 to 32 individual ropes, as part of a system (one trued wheel) exposed to dirt, dust, water...etc. all set up to a specific tension (and retensioning) I forsee a lot more maintenance vs a solid spoke or solid spoke cover (like spinergy spox) which won't allow ingress of contaminants and therefore hard to quantify system variables.

strong spokes sure, light sure....gonna change characteristics over time if used in mountain biking you bet. it is that the amount of change over time will be different depending on how the wheel is ridden and what each spoke is exposed to, unlike single strand spokes (single wire, or single coated strand pile like spox)


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Having used Dyneema rope in other applications, I’m going to guess that a spoke under high tension is going to absorb far less water, if any, when compared to the same length of cord under no tension. 


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> Having used Dyneema rope in other applications, I'm going to guess that a spoke under high tension is going to absorb far less water, if any, when compared to the same length of cord under no tension.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


the thing is, real world riding will be de-tensioning spokes constantly, to some degree. all wheels do this. stand up steep climbing is an example....it will relax some of the spokes some percentage and then they go back to normal and the wheel rotates under power. since these spoke are woven and exposed, some dust and dirt is gonna work it's way in over time

just saying there is a greater chance of variables changing the spoke characteristics since these are exposed weaves where crap can get in

first time I actually saw spokes loose tension while climbing was spinergy Rev-X
4x2 bladed murder wheels. on a climb you could hear the whop and see the pair of each set of 4 blades, one side would bow inward enough (loose tension) that spinergy added a little plastic i-bar to stick in between the spokes so when they flexed so much they wouldn't make the whop noise. so, a 32 spoke wheel or 4 spoke wheel, spokes are losing tension all day long depending on load. solid spoke, no matter, grit cannot get -inside it-...fabric spokes with exposed weave = tension loss = weave relaxing = ingress dirt or mung = slight changes over time


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## Vissile (Jul 15, 2008)

127.0.0.1 said:


> the thing is, real world riding will be de-tensioning spokes constantly, to some degree. all wheels do this. stand up steep climbing is an example....it will relax some of the spokes some percentage and then they go back to normal and the wheel rotates under power. since these spoke are woven and exposed, some dust and dirt is gonna work it's way in over time
> 
> just saying there is a greater chance of variables changing the spoke characteristics since these are exposed weaves where crap can get in
> 
> ...


You're assuming a spoke goes from 120kgf tension to 0kgf tension during a ride. If it went to 0kgf tension every rotation or every time the wheel flexes, it'll fail very quickly. They go from high tension to lower tension and back. So the likelihood of it going slack to the point it can absorb that much dirt and water, the wheel isn't properly tensioned.


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## Vissile (Jul 15, 2008)

There's a lot of incorrect information in this thread, so here's some facts. 

A properly tensioned wheel has every spoke always in tension. The tension only increases and decreases every rotation of the wheel. 

A wheel does not hang from it's upper spokes. The portion of the rim in contact with the ground flattens, putting the spokes closest to the ground under slightly less tension, and the spokes immediately surrounding the deflection under slightly higher tension. 

When looking at a singular spoke - tensile strength and stiffness are two different material properties. Stiff does not equal strong, strong does not equal stiff. (Stiff tends to be brittle). 
Yield strength = the amount of stretching a spoke can take before it starts to stretch permanently. Below this point it will spring back to it's original length. (This happens to a spoke under every rotation).
Stiffness (youngs modulus) = the amount a spoke will stretch for a given load. 

For more reading, Google "stress strain curve" and "Young's Modulus".


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

visser said:


> Tensile strength and stiffness are two different material properties. Stiff does not equal strong, strong does not equal stiff. (Stiff tends to be brittle)


You're saying that as if the amount of tension on the spokes of a wheel doesn't affect it's stiffness.

Fact?


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## mtnbikej (Sep 6, 2001)

You guys can argue the pros and cons all you want...but $512 just for the spokes? No way.


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## Vissile (Jul 15, 2008)

Zowie said:


> You're saying that as if the amount of tension on the spokes of a wheel doesn't affect it's stiffness.
> 
> Fact?


Not at all. Spoke tension definitely affects wheel stiffness.

I was referring strictly to a singular spoke from a mechanical properties point of view. But I see how my comment could be easily misinterpreted, so I'll edit it for better clarity.


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## Vissile (Jul 15, 2008)

How much are you willing to pay for a set of carbon rims? And to drop how much from the weight of a wheelset?

Enve mtb wheelset = $3,000

Stans Crest rim = $100 x 2
Spokes = $500
Hubs = $300-800
= $1000-1800. 
Probably just as light, if not lighter, and depending on the material properties of these spokes, could be stiffer / stronger.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

visser said:


> There's a lot of incorrect information in this thread, so here's some facts.
> 
> A properly tensioned wheel has every spoke always in tension. The tension only increases and decreases every rotation of the wheel.
> 
> ...


Actually right and wrong. My wording of "hanging" might be an incorrect term from an engineering standpoint but by definition it is correct. The spokes between the hub and sides/top of rim are carrying the load. The spokes face toward the "bottom" of the rim are doing little

Spokes from bottom loose a small amount of tension from point of contact up till close to 90 deg around the wheel from either side before the tension increases in relation to the loss at the ground contact.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Vissile (Jul 15, 2008)

RAKC Ind said:


> Actually right and wrong. My wording of "hanging" might be an incorrect term from an engineering standpoint but by definition it is correct. The spokes between the hub and sides/top of rim are carrying the load. The spokes face toward the "bottom" of the rim are doing little
> 
> Spokes from bottom loose a small amount of tension from point of contact up till close to 90 deg around the wheel from either side before the tension increases in relation to the loss at the ground contact.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Agreed.

Here's the excerpt from Jobst Brandt on that section.


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## poynt (Jan 15, 2004)

you could build a sub kilo wheelset for under $1700-1800, still less than a lot of the standard off the shelf big manufactres wheelsets. Enve, DT etc.
Carbofans rims $385/pair, Carbon-Ti, Tune or Extralite hubs $850+/-, Berds $500+.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

Fascinating. Instead of spending boku bucks on the ends of the spokes why didn't they use cord half the strength tied into a loop? Both ends could use the little rod and lacing would be easy as pie


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

From the website: "On the hub side of the spoke, an eyelet is pulled through the hub hole and secured with a small rod _or interlaced with another spoke_. " There's a fun idea. Woven wheels!

Or maybe knit
https://www.ropeinc.com/sp11_sbraid_eye_tuck.htm


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

visser said:


> How much are you willing to pay for a set of carbon rims?


About $300-400.


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## jbell (Oct 2, 2009)

I’m really considering a wheel set with these spokes, but my primary concern is the modification required to the spoke eyes on the hubs. Would this modification render the hubs unusable with regular J bends if at some point you decide the Berd are not working out? Would it be better to build off J bend or straight pull hubs from the stand point of rebuilding with metal spokes down the road?


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

.....


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

jbell said:


> I'm really considering a wheel set with these spokes, but my primary concern is the modification required to the spoke eyes on the hubs. Would this modification render the hubs unusable with regular J bends if at some point you decide the Berd are not working out? Would it be better to build off J bend or straight pull hubs from the stand point of rebuilding with metal spokes down the road?


There's no hub modification.


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## jbell (Oct 2, 2009)

Lelandjt said:


> There's no hub modification.


Its not a significant mod, but it appears that you need to chamfer the spoke eyes on the hubs before lacing. I cant tell from the video how much material is being removed, so it may or may not affect the ability to re-lace with conventional J bends.


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## Bnystrom (Apr 28, 2007)

*I worked with Dyneena (a.k.a. "Spectra")...*

...quite a bit when I was in the archery industry, as it's a popular material for bowstrings. While it's very strong, it has some undesirable properties:


It has a low melting point (<300 degrees F). 
It's very heat-sensitive and will "creep" when it gets warm, well under its melting point. 
It will creep over time when it's under high tension, though this eventually stabilizes to a degree. 
It's not particularly abrasion resistant. 
"Creep" is _permanent_ elongation which cannot be reversed.

The upshot of this is that your wheels are likely to lose tension if you leave them in a hot environment, like the inside of a car on a sunny day. Keep your bike well away from campfires, as an errant spark could damage your spokes.

BTW, if you want to test this, take a rag (so you don't burn your fingers) and wrap it around one of your spokes. Rub it back and forth until the spoke gets warm. I'll bet your wheel will go out of true. Granted, this is not something that you'd be doing out on a ride, but it illustrates how heat-sensitive the material is.

While you're testing, take that same pair of scissors to a spoke that's under tension and you'll cut it in a heartbeat! The cut test as you conducted it would likely produce similar results with cheap nylon cord.

Dyneema spokes are an interesting concept, but I don't see them as a practical solution, especially on mountain bikes, particularly when their only advantage is a few grams in weight savings. And at the price they're asking...forget it.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Lightweights, sort of, for MTBs.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2018/04/1...piece-full-carbon-1250g-mountain-bike-wheels/


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

mikesee said:


> You need better reading comprehension.


for a video?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

dundundata said:


> for a video?


For the text that accompanied it.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

If abrasion resistance is the big concern not why not add some epoxy? They become more spoke-like in the process.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Darth Lefty said:


> If abrasion resistance is the big concern


Having fondled, built with, and ridden these a fair bit, my only concern is coming up with the coin to put them on all my bikes. I/we won't know long term abrasion resistance until they've ben ridden/gacked on a lot longer. My preliminary $.02 is that they're more resistant to rock scuffs than metal spokes.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

A few months in now. I've ridden these wheels on three different bikes. They bring an undeniable compliance to the ride. Whether that's desirable is personal.

IMO people riding rigid bikes will benefit most from the compliance. Not sure whom *wouldn't* benefit from the loss of mass.

Checked tension on them this AM and can't see where they've deviated at all since being built.


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## Bnystrom (Apr 28, 2007)

Darth Lefty said:


> If abrasion resistance is the big concern not why not add some epoxy? They become more spoke-like in the process.


Because epoxy won't stick to it, not much of anything will. It's polyethylene.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

mikesee said:


> A few months in now. I've ridden these wheels on three different bikes. They bring an undeniable compliance to the ride. Whether that's desirable is personal.
> 
> IMO people riding rigid bikes will benefit most from the compliance. Not sure whom *wouldn't* benefit from the loss of mass.
> 
> Checked tension on them this AM and can't see where they've deviated at all since being built.


Any comments on abrasion resistance, or lack of?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

life behind bars said:


> Any comments on abrasion resistance, or lack of?


Nothing to report, as yet.

Every one of my bike-geek friends, upon seeing these wheels, has stepped off their bike, walked over, gotten down on a knee, run their fingers up and down at least one spoke, then absentmindedly uttered "crazy...".

I think they may be in more danger of over-polishing (via bike gloves) than abrasion. But I'll check back in if that changes.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Great write up, as usual, Mike.
Interested in following your results.



RAKC Ind said:


> ^ exactly. After a certain point it doesnt effect stiffness to any noticeable level. Once that point is reached all you are doing is pulling harder on the rim, the "stretch" of a spoke stops at a certain point.


Tension doesn't affect stiffness because the stretchiness of spokes doesn't change with the load that's on them. Force:elongation (aka stress:strain) in this realm is linear.



RAKC Ind said:


> the load is actually carried by pulling on the spokes at the top.


This is incorrect. The spokes that change in state, the one's doing the work of supporting the load, are the handful at the bottom.



visser said:


> There's a lot of incorrect information in this thread, so here's some facts.
> 
> A properly tensioned wheel has every spoke always in tension. The tension only increases and decreases every rotation of the wheel.
> 
> ...


all dead on



Zowie said:


> You're saying that as if the amount of tension on the spokes of a wheel doesn't affect it's stiffness.
> 
> Fact?


yep
Damon Rinard put is about as simply as possible:
"Some believe that a wheel built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not."
link



visser said:


> Not at all. Spoke tension definitely affects wheel stiffness.


nope (see above)
somewhere between your crisp, clear facts and this (and the below) conclusions you've gone haywire.



RAKC Ind said:


> The spokes between the hub and sides/top of rim are carrying the load. The spokes face toward the "bottom" of the rim are doing little


This is incorrect and has been exhaustively modeled in FEA software as well as measured empirically.



visser said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Here's the excerpt from Jobst Brandt on that section.


The figure and the book state exactly the opposite of what you guys are saying. The last sentence of the caption in your picture is, "It does not make the hub hang from the top spokes as is sometimes suggested."


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Can we fight about lasers and stiffness yet?!

Standing on tensioned spokes is fun to think about.


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## Klaster_1 (Jan 7, 2018)

Got my wheels built, gonna test them in several days. The HyperFront driveside O-ring doesn't fit with all the plugs around.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Spent the weekend bikepacking on this bike/these wheels. Really rough/disused trail on the Uncompahgre Plateau. Lots of fist-sized rocks flipping up -- sometimes from my front wheel into my rear wheel, other times from the rear wheel of the rider ahead, into my front wheel. Lots more superficial scuffs/scratches on the rims now. Can't see any markings on the spokes.

Color change: the ends of some spokes -- where the threaded metal bit exits the white dyneema -- are a bit dirty. Not sure if it's permanent or if it'll wash off. I don't tend to wash my bikes unless I get into bad mud, so it could be awhile til I have that answer.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

those BERD spokes are gonna fray and fail eventually, that is a guarantee

but I am gonna bet 
you'll die of old age before normal riding will bust one of those. 

barring accidental heat from a 'bike rack in front of an exhaust pipe' 
(likely the biggest real world risk), or 
rock dingers, those BERD spoke will need to physically appear to be furry and
frayed, and will still hold up. it'll take a lot to make them fail. 

metal spokes will just eventually crack


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Finally started rolling on a new set of wheels with Berd spokes. Built them up with DT Swiss 240s hubs, Nextie NXT29UL30 offset hole rims and Sapim brass nipples.

Pushed the tension up to the higher end of recommended during the build and the spokes held it just fine. Let them sit a couple of days before making final adjustments.

Rode them first on my Soma CX/gravel bike with (tubeless) Thunder Burt 2.0 front/Slant Six 1.8 rear tires (same setup as I had with "conventional" wheels). Definitely a different feel/less vibration... like riding on thin carpet.

Now I've got them on my Waltworks SS with 2.4 front /2.25 rear (tubeless) Racing Ralphs. Can't do much on dirt until the trails finally dry out after way too much rain the past few months.

I may swap the wheels on my Spark 930 full suspension bike and hit some rocks sooner rather than later.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

meltingfeather said:


> This is incorrect and has been exhaustively modeled in FEA software as well as measured empirically.
> 
> The figure and the book state exactly the opposite of what you guys are saying. The last sentence of the caption in your picture is, "It does not make the hub hang from the top spokes as is sometimes suggested."


LOLz


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

I find this completely amazing. People are talking about how great Boost is, because it stiffened the wheel laterally with just 6 mm of greater hub flange spacing and drove a whole host of other changes to achieve that, and at the other end we have these Berd spokes that make the wheel much less stiff.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

MikeDee said:


> I find this completely amazing. People are talking about how great Boost is, because it stiffened the wheel laterally with just 6 mm of greater hub flange spacing and drove a whole host of other changes to achieve that, and at the other end we have these Berd spokes that make the wheel much less stiff.


Why do you think they make the wheel "much less stiff"?

No one here who has actually ridden them (MikeSee, a professional wheekbuilder) has said anything of the sort.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Why do you think they make the wheel "much less stiff"?
> 
> No one here who has actually ridden them (MikeSee, a professional wheekbuilder) has said anything of the sort.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because steel spokes are much stiffer than the Berd spokes are.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

MikeDee said:


> Because steel spokes are much stiffer than the Berd spokes are.


Trolling?


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Shark said:


> Trolling?


No, just trying to understand what's going on. On one hand, people want more stiffness and stiff wheels equate to more control (they say), then you have these Berd spokes at the other end of the spectrum.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

MikeDee said:


> No, just trying to understand what's going on. On one hand, people want more stiffness and stiff wheels equate to more control (they say), then you have these Berd spokes at the other end of the spectrum.


Please tell me why you think Berd spokes would build a less stiff wheel than steel spokes.

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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> Please tell me why you think Berd spokes would build a less stiff wheel than steel spokes.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


it's been proven that with steel spokes, gauge has a big factor on stiffness. that due to the stiffness of a single spoke itself. since these berds are floppy fabric, they equate to the stiffness of the thinnest possible steel spoke.

from the paragraph below you can assume thin spoke equals a flexy spoke, and if a thin spoke can increase deflection 11% vs a fatter one, then it is not to big a jump to assume a berd spoke as strong in tension as possible, will allow more lateral deflection than steel (or any stiffer spoke)

How does spoke gauge affect stiffness?
Thicker spokes make a wheel stiffer, if all else is equal. A typical 32-spoke wheel built with 2.0mm spokes is about 11% stiffer than a similar wheel built with 2.0-1.45mm swaged spokes.

Compare the deflection of two wheels: numbers 39 and 47. Wheel 39 is built with 2.0 1.45mm swaged spokes, but wheel 47 is built with 2.0mm straight-gauge spokes. Hub dimensions are effectively identical, spoke count is the same and the rims are the same make and model, so the only structural difference is the spoke gauge.

Result? The wheel with thinner spokes deflected 0.051" (1.30mm) in font and 0.067" (1.70mm) in the rear, but the wheel with thicker spokes deflected less: only 0.046" (1.17mm) and 0.055" (1.40mm) for front and rear, respectively. That's an 11% increase in stiffness for the thicker-spoked wheels.

Interestingly, wheel stiffness depends on more than just spoke thickness: the rim and other factors also contribute, so only part of the increase in raw spoke stiffness shows up in measured wheel stiffness. The thicker spoke by itself is nearly twice as stiff axially as the thinner spoke!>

from
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

Berd wheels will be fine, and strong, and outlast metal by far..... but in a vice and in clamps and doing deflection tests vs metal spokes, berd will deflect a bit more. just push on one berd spoke with your finger then do the same to a metal spoke, which one has more give for equal pressure ? not rocket science. spokes only need to support tension they do not support load. but wheel deflection forces have a better time deflecting a wheel where the load carrying capacity of a spoke is extremely small with berd, vs metal which has 'at least some more' side-load bearing capacity.

it's not gonna matter for real
if you want some nice hoops berd is a great option. I been reviewing other industrial uses of PE aramid fibers and the tensile strength and robustness of this stuff is off the charts.

yes they will get furry after a lot of abuse, still doesn't matter, they'll still outlive your bones. ride in broken glass or bash some rocks of course they may get cut, but metal spokes will nick and eventually break too, so no change there. what does change is these won't break from fatigue -ever- in your lifetime whereas metal spokes eventually will crack somewhere someday.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

MikeDee said:


> I find this completely amazing. People are talking about how great Boost is, because it stiffened the wheel laterally with just 6 mm of greater hub flange spacing and drove a whole host of other changes to achieve that, and at the other end we have these Berd spokes that make the wheel much less stiff.


For starters, I don't hear anyone talking about how Boost has changed much other than lightened our collective wallet. It makes a difference on paper, yes, but few can tell much difference on the trail.

Now if you're talking SuperBoost (aka 150/157) then yeah -- big differences are notable there, and have been for 10+ years or as long as that spacing has existed.

As for the Berd spokes, I think you're confusing compliance with flex. I don't notice any flex _from_ the wheel, I just note a more muted feel _coming through_ the wheel.

See?


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Please tell me why you think Berd spokes would build a less stiff wheel than steel spokes.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Le Duke has an excellent point here, which is why I only spec my wheels with the finest cooked pasta.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

127.0.0.1 said:


> those BERD spokes are gonna fray and fail eventually, that is a guarantee
> 
> but I am gonna bet
> you'll die of old age before normal riding will bust one of those.
> ...


Negativity + ignorance is a bad combo.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

mikesee said:


> Negativity + ignorance is a bad combo.


bite me. negativity + ignorance is what keeps me atop my milk crate throne behind the 7/11 selling crack to minors.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I’d suggest people read up on the properties of Dyneema vs steel and get back to us. Then, think about how that would apply to wheelbuilding.

Otherwise you are just making unfounded arguments. 

Hint: it’s 12-15x stronger for the same weight, with comparable resistance to stretch. 




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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Yeah, ignorance is really bad. Which is why it's odd that none of the Berd literature lists the actual stiffness of their spokes. I'll assume the "pull strength" is UTS but that doesn't tell us a lot.

I found a young's modulous of UHMW Polyethylene to be 1 GPa on the Dielectric Corporation's website and up to 100 GPa in the Dyneema literature. The modulous of 18-8 stainless is 200 GPa. So if that's true then a Berd spoke would need double the cross sectional area of a steel spoke to have the same stiffness, everything else being equal, best case.

Lacking stiffness isn't necessarily a bad thing in use, but the problem is that when designing for fatigue life you want to minimize strain. Berd hasn't released any fatigue data that I can find, and the statement on their website regarding materials and fatigue life is kinda silly. The vast majority of polymers have poor fatigue properties and steel has no fatigue limit if designed properly.

Dyneema has some handy data, but notice that the steel curve is flattening out, so you can design a bike wheel with steel spokes for infinite fatigue. The Dyneema curve is straight down to 60% as far as I can tell, and they only go to 2 million cycles. So who knows what happens for lower load ranges. On road bike wheels you only need to ride 2800 miles to get to 2 million cycles, but mountain bike's are harsher on wheels.










http://www.pelicanrope.com/pdfs/DyneemaSK75_Tech_Sheet.pdf


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Schulze said:


> Yeah, ignorance is really bad. Which is why it's odd that none of the Berd literature lists the actual stiffness of their spokes. I'll assume the "pull strength" is UTS but that doesn't tell us a lot.
> 
> I found a young's modulous of UHMW Polyethylene to be 1 GPa on the Dielectric Corporation's website and up to 100 GPa in the Dyneema literature. The modulous of 18-8 stainless is 200 GPa. So if that's true then a Berd spoke would need double the cross sectional area of a steel spoke to have the same stiffness, everything else being equal, best case.
> 
> ...


Bravo!

These spokes can't be double the thickness of stainless spokes because they work with conventional hubs and wouldn't fit through the spoke holes if they were. They are also a woven material so that their cross sectional area is going to be less than if they were solid like steel spokes are.

Maybe stiffness doesn't matter much, or maybe it really does. Bike manufacturers are going through all sorts of efforts to stiffen up bikes and forks with oversized tubing, tapered steerer tubes, Boost, etc. and now there's these spokes flying in the face of all that noise.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

127.0.0.1 said:


> bite me. negativity + ignorance is what keeps me atop my milk crate throne behind the 7/11 selling crack to minors.


And then you go throwing in anger and delusions of grandeur and someone might need to take away your myspace account...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

MikeDee said:


> Bravo!
> 
> These spokes can't be double the thickness of stainless spokes because they work with conventional hubs and wouldn't fit through the spoke holes if they were. They are also a woven material so that their cross sectional area is going to be less than if they were solid like steel spokes are.
> 
> ...


Double the thickness?

No. Just stop.

The person you quoted wrote "double the cross sectional area", not double the thickness.

Let's do some simple math.

A DT Comp is 2.0-1.6-2.0mm. In the middle of the spoke, it's 0.8mm in radius.

Therefore, its cross sectional area is (0.8^2)*pi. Or 2.0106 square millimeters.

To DOUBLE the cross sectional area, 2.0106*2= 4.0212.

4.0212/pi = 1.28. The square root of 1.28 is: 1.13mm. Double that for diameter.

A 2.26mm Berd spoke would have the same stiffness, per Schulze, as a DT Comp.

Now, I don't know what hubs you use, but my DT Swiss hubs have a spoke hole of 2.5mm, per their website.

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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> Double the thickness?
> 
> No. Just stop.
> 
> ...


The Berd website says "Reduced 1.8mm cross section for improved aerodynamics."


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

MikeDee said:


> The Berd website says "Reduced 1.8mm cross section for improved aerodynamics."


Ok. My math was using the 100 GPa and 200 GPa rating for Dyneema and stainless, respectively. Many Dyneema products are rated in the 130+ range. Which would put the difference at a few percent between the two products. Particularly when, for example, Sapim spokes are made from AISI 302 stainless, which has a YM of 180 GPa.

Depending on grade of fiber used, they might actually be "stiffer" than Comps.

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## IPA Rider (Aug 24, 2008)

...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

...not sure whether to admire, pity, or laugh at the folks trying to explain the physics and engineering involved here (no...not YOU, or you...you THINK you are doing the explaining but you are the ones that need things explained to you)


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

IPA Rider said:


> ...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...
> 
> ...not sure whether to admire, pity, or laugh at the folks trying to explain the physics and engineering involved here (no...not YOU, or you...you THINK you are doing the explaining but you are the ones that need things explained to you)


Oh, I readily acknowledge that I'm not an engineer. But, I'm capable of reading, doing simple math, collecting publicly available data and comparing that to other data.

If anything I've said here is wrong, please correct me. Like most other people, I'm here to learn.

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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

Someone posted that a 1.45 spoke deflects 11% more than a 2.0 spoke.

... That's not really that much more, and that's thinner than the thinnest spoke available. There's just not a huge difference to be had in spoke selection, unconditionally I think.

It's like looking for gold digging in your nose. There's just none there no matter how hard you try. These silly thing are 500 bucks a set! There's not enough potential benefit on the table to make that make sense.


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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

Everyone is confusing the two types of stiffness (or bending modes while riding). All the responses above relate to the wheel deflecting in the vertical direction (by a tiny amount compared with tires). This is generally not an issue. The bigger issue with wheels is lateral stiffness and bending. This can be demonstrated by putting the hub in a vice with the wheel horizontal and adding weight to the rims and seeing how far it deflects based on load. Wheels that are "flexy" in this bending mode are harder to steer and can even cause the tire to rub on the chainstays. This deflection is usually MUCH greater then the deflection noted above. Note that this is felt in cornering, particularily if you are heavy and really rail the corners. This is where Carbon really outshines aluminum as most of the deflection is cause by the rim stiffness. As to whether polymer spokes make much of a difference I do not have the data on it but expect it is still more a property of the rim.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

One Pivot said:


> Someone posted that a 1.45 spoke deflects 11% more than a 2.0 spoke.
> 
> ... That's not really that much more, and that's thinner than the thinnest spoke available. There's just not a huge difference to be had in spoke selection, unconditionally I think.
> 
> It's like looking for gold digging in your nose. There's just none there no matter how hard you try. These silly thing are 500 bucks a set! There's not enough potential benefit on the table to make that make sense.


I think the discussion on these spokes and stiffness of bikes and components in general is useful, as long as we refrain from insulting each other. $500 is not much for a set of wheels. I still believe that they build a less stiff wheel (but perhaps not as much as I initially suspected) and there is the creep problem that I think was discussed in the other thread that would keep me from using them.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

MikeDee said:


> I think the discussion on these spokes and stiffness of bikes and components in general is useful, as long as we refrain from insulting each other. $500 is not much for a set of wheels. I still believe that they build a less stiff wheel (but perhaps not as much as I initially suspected) and there is the creep problem that I think was discussed in the other thread that would keep me from using them.


There really isn't evidence of creep as yet, although I'll readily admit that it's still early days to make that call. I'm coming up on 10 months and ~2000 miles on my first set, and about to build myself another set for fatbike use.

If your concern about creep is that the wheels will need to be retensioned, it's probably worth noting here that this happens to some extent with normal steel spokes too.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

MikeDee said:


> I think the discussion on these spokes and stiffness of bikes and components in general is useful, as long as we refrain from insulting each other. $500 is not much for a set of wheels. I still believe that they build a less stiff wheel (but perhaps not as much as I initially suspected) and there is the creep problem that I think was discussed in the other thread that would keep me from using them.


You really dont think a ~$450 upcharge for spokes alone is a big deal? Maybe we're in different income brackets. Thats a ton for me.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

One Pivot said:


> You really dont think a ~$450 upcharge for spokes alone is a big deal? Maybe we're in different income brackets. Thats a ton for me.


It's a lot of money for me, too.

But everything's relative. I don't drink beer, don't smoke dope, don't eat out much, my car is paid for, and bikes and boats are my only 'mad money' expenditures. Spending $500 and getting a more compliant ride isn't much in the grand scheme of things.

Bikes in general aren't much in the grand scheme of things, when you get right down to it. Read the headlines and see that there's a guy that's spending billions to take a plane ride around the moon. Another that's spending like $190 million -- in cash -- to buy a magazine. Hundreds of thousands of people are about to line up to pay $1k for a phone.

None of it is right or wrong -- people get to choose how they spend their money.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

One Pivot said:


> You really dont think a ~$450 upcharge for spokes alone is a big deal? Maybe we're in different income brackets. Thats a ton for me.


I thought wrong that was for complete set of wheels, so yeah I agree.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

mikesee said:


> There really isn't evidence of creep as yet, although I'll readily admit that it's still early days to make that call. I'm coming up on 10 months and ~2000 miles on my first set, and about to build myself another set for fatbike use.
> 
> If your concern about creep is that the wheels will need to be retensioned, it's probably worth noting here that this happens to some extent with normal steel spokes too.


Creep was not a concern for me on the Berd build. I wonder more about cosmetic fraying at either end of the spokes over time, more so at the hub hole interface I imagine.

Of the ~8 wheel sets with varying sorts of steel spokes I am currently running, only one rear wheel required re-tensioning after a year or so.

It is a Stan's stock Crest that had ridden a number of stairs and decent drops. I eventually swapped in an ArchEX hoop and it is still going strong.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Wax them, like a bow string?


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Porkchop_Power said:


> Everyone is confusing the two types of stiffness (or bending modes while riding). All the responses above relate to the wheel deflecting in the vertical direction (by a tiny amount compared with tires). This is generally not an issue. The bigger issue with wheels is lateral stiffness and bending. This can be demonstrated by putting the hub in a vice with the wheel horizontal and adding weight to the rims and seeing how far it deflects based on load. Wheels that are "flexy" in this bending mode are harder to steer and can even cause the tire to rub on the chainstays. This deflection is usually MUCH greater then the deflection noted above. Note that this is felt in cornering, particularily if you are heavy and really rail the corners. This is where Carbon really outshines aluminum as most of the deflection is cause by the rim stiffness. As to whether polymer spokes make much of a difference I do not have the data on it but expect it is still more a property of the rim.


actually flexy wheels generally rub chainstays less.
Bending modes? Try again...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

meltingfeather said:


> actually flexy wheels generally rub chainstays less.
> Bending modes? Try again...


My experience was quite opposite of that, the flexy 29er wheelset would rub the chainstays under hard cornering.


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

I think he meant rims. Stiff rims rub chainstays. A noodly rim will flex at the bottom only, like a wet noodle.

This is a bigger deal on road bikes with narrow spacing. Becomes really obvious.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I have found frames play a HUGE part in this as well. People sometimes point at rims and ignore the frame aspect. 

But rubbing I have experienced as a big rider has always been more noodly rims when I'm on a properly built frame (big guy and XC frame doesnt mix well railing corners for me, more rubbing and flexing issues in the rear). The more lateral stiffness a wheel has the less issues I have pushing tire clearance in a frame.

Have to say the more I watch this thread the more I want to save the funds for these. Thankfully by the time I can buy them the more time they are put through our level abuse and I'll know if they last well enough to justify the cost.

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## Porkchop_Power (Jul 30, 2008)

How would they rub the chainstay less since they are bending more? That makes no sense. I should have said deflecting more from the fixed hub but either way even with crappy old 26 wheelsets I could easily bend the lighter ones and rub the chainstay holding the bike still.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Porkchop_Power said:


> How would they rub the chainstay less since they are bending more? That makes no sense. I should have said deflecting more from the fixed hub but either way even with crappy old 26 wheelsets I could easily bend the lighter ones and rub the chainstay holding the bike still.


First, rereading my post it came off snarky AF... apologies.
I meant rims... wheels can be "flexy" in different ways. If the rims are not stiff, they flex locally (at the point of applied force) but not much elsewhere. Stiff rims move more as a plane, where any displacement will result in movement all around the wheel. The phenomenon is influenced by other factors affecting the stiffness of the wheel, including the number, gauge, and lacing of the spokes, and the flange spacing of the hub.
A wheel with a very stiff rim and narrow flange spacing or very thin spikes would be the worst case interns of ground displacements causing movement of the rim relative to the frame around the wheel (stay rub).


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Jayem said:


> My experience was quite opposite of that, the flexy 29er wheelset would rub the chainstays under hard cornering.


Individual experiences really don't offer much in a discussion of first principles and engineering. I'm not discounting it, but the whole of the experience is unknown and performance trends or tendencies are quantified statistically, for which individual data points have little to no bearing. 
I'm not sure what data you based you determination of "flexy" on for your wheel or any of the other circumstances surrounding your experience, but the fact that forces applied at the ground translated into movement of the wheel at the stays means that at least the rim was relatively (in the context of 29er mtb rims) stiff. If you had a few thin spokes or a rear triangle or axle fixture that were not stiff, any of those could have played a role, but aren't attributable to the wheel in the latter cases.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

RAKC Ind said:


> I have found frames play a HUGE part in this as well. People sometimes point at rims and ignore the frame aspect.
> 
> But rubbing I have experienced as a big rider has always been more noodly rims when I'm on a properly built frame (big guy and XC frame doesnt mix well railing corners for me, more rubbing and flexing issues in the rear). The more lateral stiffness a wheel has the less issues I have pushing tire clearance in a frame.
> 
> ...


You're mixing and matching terms and components here-- part of the reason why individual experiences can always be turned up as contradictory "evidence" when there are none of the factors that would qualify it as valid such as control, bias consideration, statistically significant number of samples. Most of the time in these discussions a meaningful fraction of the relevant basic facts aren't even offered, as in this case and that mentioned by Jayem.
Lateral stiffness and a wheel's load-response behavior is affected by more than just the "noodliness" of the rim spec.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

meltingfeather said:


> Individual experiences really don't offer much in a discussion of first principles and engineering. I'm not discounting it, but the whole of the experience is unknown and performance trends or tendencies are quantified statistically, for which individual data points have little to no bearing.
> I'm not sure what data you based you determination of "flexy" on for your wheel or any of the other circumstances surrounding your experience, but the fact that forces applied at the ground translated into movement of the wheel at the stays means that at least the rim was relatively (in the context of 29er mtb rims) stiff. If you had a few thin spokes or a rear triangle or axle fixture that were not stiff, any of those could have played a role, but aren't attributable to the wheel in the latter cases.


Well, "flexy" was because it (stock alloy specialized wheelset) was rubbing the chainstays during hard cornering. I had never had a bike do that before. Tightening the heck out of the spokes, higher than normal, helped significantly and made it much more occasional, but didn't make it go away completely. Once I built up some carbon wheeled rims for the bike, the problem did go away altogether.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

I sent an email to Berd, asking about creep, stiffness, loss of tension over time, etc. Here is their reply:

Hi,

Thanks for your email and your interest in our spokes. Yes, we haven't found any negative effects due to creep. We haven't found any negative effects of wheels being stored in a hot car, but you certainly want to keep the spokes away from extremely high temperatures. Our spokes are about 2/3 the stiffness of similar gauge steel spokes.

What other questions can I answer? Are you interested in purchasing our spokes for a wheelbuild?

Thanks, 
Charlie

On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 5:11 PM <[email protected]> wrote:
Have you researched/tested your spokes to determine how/if they are affected by loss of tension in assembled wheels over time due to creep? Are they sensitive to heat, such as the wheels being stored in the back of a hot car? How stiff are your spokes as compared to similar thickness stainless steel spokes? Thanks.


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## okashira (Feb 13, 2009)

mikesee said:


> There really isn't evidence of creep as yet, although I'll readily admit that it's still early days to make that call. I'm coming up on 10 months and ~2000 miles on my first set, and about to build myself another set for fatbike use.
> 
> If your concern about creep is that the wheels will need to be retensioned, it's probably worth noting here that this happens to some extent with normal steel spokes too.


I'm looking to build up a chinese carbon wheel and glad you brought this up.
Creep is definitely an issue with Dyneema. Sk75, Sk78, Sk99 from DSM will all creep over time, even as low as 18°C. 
At 30°C, the wheels would detention is just a few weeks.
However, just a few years ago, DSM released DM20 which was a massive improvement in creep. It basically flatlines even up to 30°C. I don't think it's a coincidence that Berd LLC appeared about a year after DSM released this material.

That said, I love to DIY, so I am planning to make a set of my own. I think you can make them for $1 or less per spoke. Dyneema is not that expensive. 
I've read Berd's patent, and it's dead simple. You literally cut off the end of a cheap spoke, attach the dyneema with super glue (with a certain length buried in the hollow braid; it grips like a chinese finger trap; the glue is just for no-load retention) and use a standard loop splice on the other end.

@mikesee, is there a recommended internal nipple to use with these that you know of?


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## okashira (Feb 13, 2009)

Dang, I wrote a reply and it dissapeared.

I am glad you guys brought up creep.
Creep is certaitnyl a concern with UHMWPE.
DSM's SK78, even SK99 will all creep, even as low as 18°C. Per DSM's data.
At 30°C, they would potentially detension in just a few weeks.

However, just a few years ago, DSM released their DM20 material, which is a huge jump in creep performance. It's basically flatlined, even at 45% breaking load at 30°C.
And even at 70°C with 20% load its almost flatlined.

I love to DIY, and I'm cheap, so I am going to build a set myself.
I have read their patent and it's dead simple. I think you could make them at home for less then $1 per spoke.
Ive sourced some 1.8mm SK78 and Sk99 material for an initial build, but still looking for some 1.8mm or 2mm DM20. No one offers it yet.
The Sk78 or SK99 should last quite a while in my mild climate in Washington. The 2mm sk99 stuff is also rated at 850kg, so i'd only be loading it to less then 13% breaking load which would really limit creep anyway.
I don't know any 2mm steel spokes that could hold anywhere near 800kg. Impressive stuff.

Here is a chart from a DSM presentation.
DM20 is like 2 orders of magnitude improvement in creep.








https://www.dsm.com/content/dam/dsm...ring with HMPE - Jorn Boesten DSM Dyneema.pdf

@Mikesee Is there a recommended internal nipple to use with these spokes?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

I like DT Squorx:

https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/spokes-nipples/nipples/dt-squorx/


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Very interesting, okashira! I'm interested to see your home made spokes when you get them.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Making the loop on the end is the tricky part. As is finding a suitable glue to attach the spoke end to the Dyneema. 

I think 3M makes a liquid acrylic glue specifically for HDPE. 8005, IIRC.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

He can just tie a knot at both ends and have some sort of expanding insert to tension.


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## okashira (Feb 13, 2009)

Le Duke said:


> Making the loop on the end is the tricky part. As is finding a suitable glue to attach the spoke end to the Dyneema.
> 
> I think 3M makes a liquid acrylic glue specifically for HDPE. 8005, IIRC.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Honestly, I think any glue will work. The microscopic fibers have so much surface area that you don't need a good bond.


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## okashira (Feb 13, 2009)

Knots are generally a bad idea with uhmwpe. They weaken the rope and tend to slip out. You gotta splice. YouTube how to splice a loop in dyneema.


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## okashira (Feb 13, 2009)

mikesee said:


> I like DT Squorx:
> 
> https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/spokes-nipples/nipples/dt-squorx/


Thanks. I meant to say internal nipples. My x1700's and my Chinese carbon rims coming are internal. When I mentioned it to Charlie at Berd, he said to use a specific one and I didn't write it down. I'd ask him but he's not replying to my emails anymore .


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Well that's very interesting. A splice is almost 100% of the strength.


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## okashira (Feb 13, 2009)

Schulze said:


> Well that's very interesting. A splice is almost 100% of the strength.


This is the specific splice Berd describes in their patent.
They add a dab of super glue to the bury. (instead of twine)


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## okashira (Feb 13, 2009)

outdated


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## okashira (Feb 13, 2009)

Outdated information


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## okashira (Feb 13, 2009)

EDIT: post deleted as part of the information violates an active patent


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Wow. Very impressed with your work here. Well done. 

I wonder if Berd will drop their prices now...




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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

okashira said:


> First try.


Super cool DIY project. Deserves more detail as you learn from your mistakes.

Should also be it's own thread -- inappropriate to take this one hostage.


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Call me intrigued. I find the this all interesting. With the spoke nipple interface still being a traditional combo, is it likely we would see any fatigue life increase? In my experience, when I break spokes, it's almost always at or near the nipple. 

I would think the primary benefit is weight reduction which is significant.


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## sissypants (Sep 7, 2016)

Thanks a ton for posting all this info, I am very intrigued. I will have to take some time to read up on this and how you did it. Makes sense.


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## sissypants (Sep 7, 2016)

okashira said:


> The super glue does NOT hold the load. It's only there to allow the Dyneema to pull tight and squeeze down onto the shaft like a Chinese finger trap, and it grips the shaft like that.
> View attachment 1221611


How long do you really think that spoke shaft needs to be? I guess I'm wondering what length it takes for dyneema to wrap around that shaft under tension like a finger trap? (great example, btw).

I'm also contemplating why we jump to spoke-like materials without trying to innovate a little bit, since splicing is something that can potential save a lot of weight working with dyneema.

How does PiRope secure their end bolts to the strings? Could we do something similar with Dyneema or is there a difference in the properties of the two materials that would make this a bad thing to do? I can see potential for a lighter system if a nipple-like bolt could just be "glued" to the end of the dyneema fiber, which can then be tensioned with a nut on the inner rim bed.

There must be another way to do this!


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Cool DIY product but I can help but feel some concern for the developer who came up with this product having his hard work taken apart, and copied. 

That said, if the technology proves to provide no downside (except for cost) then I would incorporate it in to my next wheel build. However I'd purchase a complete package from an experienced provider. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

mikesee said:


> Super cool DIY project. Deserves more detail as you learn from your mistakes.
> 
> Should also be it's own thread -- inappropriate to take this one hostage.


+1 jeesh


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm still curious why you couldn't take a line half the size and make a loop. It would have to be easier than doing 5 dozen ish miniature splices at 10-15 minutes each.


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## okashira (Feb 13, 2009)

Outdated


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## okashira (Feb 13, 2009)

Darth Lefty said:


> I'm still curious why you couldn't take a line half the size and make a loop. It would have to be easier than doing 5 dozen ish miniature splices at 10-15 minutes each.


You could. But you need a way to tension the spokes, thus a threaded end... The splice actually only takes 1-2 minutes.


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## sissypants (Sep 7, 2016)

okashira said:


> In basic theory, no. The spoke end/nipple will see all the same loads.
> you could move to a 13g nipple for more strength there.
> 
> However, the UHMWPE material has a nice ability to damp some high frequency loads and shock loads which may increase the fatigue life of the spoke end / nipple.
> ...


You should start a new thread.

Your ambition and specific information is impressive! I agree that Berd is using the DM20 material. This makes sense based on their public release date and the release date of DM20 being one year earlier, their patent info describing the specific properties of the material, and also the fact that only DM20 is particularly stretch-resistent.

I was on the fence about saving up for Berds, but no longer.

It's confusing to me how Pi-Rope can be using such an elastic material and yet claim the same tension-and-forget marketing pitch that Berd is using. It seems to me that Pi-Rope spokes should require constant re-tensioning.

Does this exclusivity agreement mean that we can't order 1.8mm DM20 stranded Dyneema from Marlow?

What about using 1.2mm DM20 Dyneema? Is this too narrow? We aren't trying to lift lead-heavy riggings with this stuff.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

okashira said:


> You could. But you need a way to tension the spokes, thus a threaded end...


Sure. But it could be a screw eye.



> The splice actually only takes 1-2 minutes.


Well you'd get some practice! :-D


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> Cool DIY product but I can help but feel some concern for the developer who came up with this product having his hard work taken apart, and copied.
> 
> That said, if the technology proves to provide no downside (except for cost) then I would incorporate it in to my next wheel build. However I'd purchase a complete package from an experienced provider.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Yeah AHHHH, that is kina the whole point.

I can DIY all sorts of things (that could fail epically) and prefer purchasing bike components from someone who has done the proper R&D and actually got the spokes race certified... certainly a non-trivial task.

_DIY discussion in this thread is super bad form IMO; just sayin..._

There are herds of people who have paid $2k or more for wheel sets so going gonzo on spokes/nipples is not all that outlandish in the grand scheme of things.

I got the new/unboxed DT 240s hubs for $200 from someone who decided boost and <32 holes was "the thing they needed". Threw some of that savings at spokes... no big deal.

I'm in a solid financial spot where it is feasible for me to pay the freight for something relatively new and different... sure, the cost will most likely go down over time as Berd produces more and the design may change too... all good by me.


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## changingleaf (Apr 2, 2010)

Since wheels are held together in tension thinner spokes of the same material will flex more because the thinner spokes stretch more. Stretch in engineering terms is called strain and is measured as in/in or mm/mm. Anyway, if the berd rope has less strain, then the the rope will stretch less and result in actually less flex.

But a stiff rim changes the way a wheel flexes. A lightweight aluminum rim will bend when it flexes, whereas a stiff carbon rim will resist bending and rotate laterally around the hub which may in some cases result in a wheel that flexes more depending on where you are taking your measurements. 

Since carbon rims are generally much stiffer than aluminum rims they will be much stiffer vertically as long as the spokes remain in tension. Since aluminum rims can more easily bend at a single area they can allow the spoke tension to drop in that area, whereas a carbon rim has a greater ability to remain round under load and activate all spokes together.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

This is really interesting and I hope he continues to post. Mikesee posts his wheel-selling spam on boards all the time, so I don't see any issues with the guy continuing to post his DIY stuff on this thread.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

changingleaf said:


> Since wheels are held together in tension thinner spokes of the same material will flex more because the thinner spokes stretch more. Stretch in engineering terms is called strain and is measured as in/in or mm/mm. Anyway, if the berd rope has less strain, then the the rope will stretch less and result in actually less flex.
> 
> But a stiff rim changes the way a wheel flexes. A lightweight aluminum rim will bend when it flexes, whereas a stiff carbon rim will resist bending and rotate laterally around the hub which may in some cases result in a wheel that flexes more depending on where you are taking your measurements.
> 
> Since carbon rims are generally much stiffer than aluminum rims they will be much stiffer vertically as long as the spokes remain in tension. Since aluminum rims can more easily bend at a single area they can allow the spoke tension to drop in that area, whereas a carbon rim has a greater ability to remain round under load and activate all spokes together.


I'd like to add that the flex of aluminum rims on a decent wheel build may not be detectable by many riders (including me). Some of my friends who are crazy amateur podium sorts of people can tell the difference but honestly, I can't.

During a wheel build, I definitely notice there are more "nuances" (in a smaller area) to maintaining trueness with aluminum rims but once they are built, they hold up quite well- similar to carbon for me (I've hit staircases in addition to rocks, roots and dirt with all of them).

The downside with a Berd build is that it takes more time for sure. I was quite surprised that the spokes all settled in with a consistent number of threads showing. Somehow I had it in my mind that the spoke stretch/strain would be more variable with non-rigid material.

Another factor on the build side is the size of the hub flange. I run Chris King large diameter (LD) 15mm 29er front hubs (short spokes 284mm) with 135mm rear hubs on ~50% of bikes in my stable and DT 240s's for most of the remainder (including the Berd build).

I'm hoping to have a pro friend ride my Berd wheel set at some point (now that race season is over) and see what he thinks. My "amateur+" friends are in two camps: super light builds with bladed spokes are "the only way" (never been my thing). The other camp seems obsessed with stiffness... 35mm+ rims with big straight spokes (and I9 hubs that need ~yearly bearing replacements lol). I don't have much dental work but prefer something with a little forgiveness.

Some in both camps are convinced that I am going to have a catastrophic failure with the Berd build. I've given up on trying to convince them otherwise. I recently rode in the Michaux, PA Terror of Teaberry event on them and my body took almost a week to recover. Wheel set was no worse for the wear.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

Mike, did you grind or drill the spoke holes like they recommend prior to lacing? Seems like somewhat of a drawback if it will potentially void a hub warranty. Thoughts?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

dustyduke22 said:


> Mike, did you grind or drill the spoke holes like they recommend prior to lacing? Seems like somewhat of a drawback if it will potentially void a hub warranty. Thoughts?


The first set (that this thread is based on) I did have to massage the spoke holes somewhat.

Berd's processes have evolved substantially since then, such that each successive set has needed less massaging. Last set I basically chamfered the edges of the spoke holes -- polished might be a better word -- just so that there were no sharp edges that could damage the spoke fabric. Didn't feel remotely necessary.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

mikesee said:


> The first set (that this thread is based on) I did have to massage the spoke holes somewhat.
> 
> Berd's processes have evolved substantially since then, such that each successive set has needed less massaging. Last set I basically chamfered the edges of the spoke holes -- polished might be a better word -- just so that there were no sharp edges that could damage the spoke fabric. Didn't feel remotely necessary.


Thanks Mike. Did you just use the bit they provide or something else?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

dustyduke22 said:


> Thanks Mike. Did you just use the bit they provide or something else?


I was ~3 sets in before they started providing a bit. I used something out of one of those million piece dremel kits for the first few. Cork and conical IIRC.


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## Comrade Sukhov (Aug 8, 2016)

edubfromktown said:


> Finally started rolling on a new set of wheels with Berd spokes. Built them up with DT Swiss 240s hubs, Nextie NXT29UL30 offset hole rims and Sapim brass nipples.


Hey! Cool built! 
And what weights did you get for the front/rear/overall? 
Why did you use the Brass nipples and not aluminum ones?


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Comrade Sukhov said:


> Hey! Cool built!
> And what weights did you get for the front/rear/overall?
> Why did you use the Brass nipples and not aluminum ones?


Thanks...

Rear wheel came in @675g (with freehub and end caps attached). I don't recall the weight of the front. I built them for the dampening qualities more than anything else (and not a super weight weenie sort of person either).

I only use brass nipples anymore- particularly with carbon hoops. Less corrosion potential than aluminum nipples when moisture (inevitably) gets in there.

I used the Dremel-style bit that Berd provided to chamfer the spoke holes. Felt somewhat unnatural to go at a set of brand new DT 240 hubs with it but better that than wonder about spoke fabric damage later down the road.

I've ridden these wheels on all four of my 29er's (plus CX/gravel bike) and ran them on my Scott RC 930 for one MTB race. Been awesome so far.


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## Comrade Sukhov (Aug 8, 2016)

And what is the procedure? One have to contact Berd - and they will calculate the needed lengths (depending on the hubs, rims and lacing pattern) and then would sell them to the client? Or...?


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

Had no idea about these spokes until I found a link on Outside Mag...also mentioning Mike C. in the article. Seriously considering sending my rims and hubs out to these guys for a wheelset build. Not sure how much better they would be than traditional for an i36 carbon rim running 3" tires. Feedback would be great!

Article 3/4 way down the page, under best cycling gear tested....
https://www.outsideonline.com/2378061/best-cycling-gear-we-tested-year

BERD Sale


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

i36 carbon is what I built them for that test.


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

mikesee said:


> i36 carbon is what I built them for that test.


Thanks! :thumbsup:

Still considering the cost side of it...$$$ :skep:


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

If I was building new wheels, I'd be using the Berd spokes for sure. 

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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I briefly got excited by this new Berd wheel rebuild sale. Then I sat down and had a talk with myself about spending $595 to save 100g (but....but...rotating weight !).

For some reason its easier to justify if you are building a new wheelset, even though the wheelset I'd upgrade is as good as new and the cost was absorbed a long time ago. 

Just a mental game I guess.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Preston67 said:


> had a talk with myself about spending $595 to save 100g


100g _per wheel_ for most people. Which is substantial.

I like them more for the level of compliance that they add to a wheel. As my body continues to fall apart I can't quite keep up with the need to make things more compliant.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Sapim Laser 262 mm with nipple 4.7 grams
BERD Poly Light 265 mm with nipple 2.7 grams
So for my build it would be a savings of 112 grams for the set.
My current set is 1090 grams with Extralite Hubs Laser spokes and 295 gram carbon rims.
I may be cool to say my wheels are 978 grams but not for $600.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

mikesee said:


> 100g _per wheel_ for most people. Which is substantial.
> 
> I like them more for the level of compliance that they add to a wheel. As my body continues to fall apart I can't quite keep up with the need to make things more compliant.


It was also a good excuse to lace up a set of new hubs sitting on the shelf that I knew would easily swap between SS, 9-10 and 11 speed. I didn't go with Berd spokes for the weight saving aspects so much as trying a different sort of build and I guess the "weirdness factor" too.

Some of my riding cronies still think there will be some catastrophic taco fail because of the spoke material...


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

edubfromktown said:


> Some of my riding cronies still think there will be some catastrophic taco fail because of the spoke material...


And how do you feel in that respect, compared to your traditionally built wheels?...

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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Just checking in to add one more data point: No news is good news. Put differently, I have nothing new to say about them, they just keep ticking along. I've had this wheelset on 4 different bikes now, ridden all over the mountain west from low desert to high alpine. I check tension on them every few weeks to ensure things are staying put. But I haven't had to put a wrench to them yet. Sort of impressive given that I've had them on a 170/150mm 29+ FS bike for the past ~8 months, and my backyard trails ain't buff.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

Preston67 said:


> I briefly got excited by this new Berd wheel rebuild sale. Then I sat down and had a talk with myself about spending $595 to save 100g (but....but...rotating weight !).
> 
> For some reason its easier to justify if you are building a new wheelset, even though the wheelset I'd upgrade is as good as new and the cost was absorbed a long time ago.
> 
> Just a mental game I guess.


Yeah, if your wheelset currently has CX-Rays or Aerolites it's really hard to justify the upgrade. If someone laced fancy rims and hubs with 14/15s they could more easily see the logic in a rebuild. (but then why would they have used 14/15s in the first place?)
This is really only an option for new builds.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Lelandjt said:


> Yeah, if your wheelset currently has CX-Rays or Aerolites it's really hard to justify the upgrade.


If you're talking strictly dollars and grams, ok.

If you factor in ride quality, I think the Berd's are still worth it. I feel lots of braking windup with Aerolites, and CX-Rays just plain ride harsh.

Probably more noticeable on a hardtail. I'm riding Berd's on a 170/150 bike with 29 x 3" tires, and I still feel the difference and think it's worth the $$$.

But we're all different.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Just J said:


> And how do you feel in that respect, compared to your traditionally built wheels?...
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


No different in how I treat them compared to other wheel sets. I built up a set of Light Bicycle carbon wheels back in ~2012 and heard from Stan's employees (at an MTB event) and others that I was going to die :skep: That wheel set is still going strong (with lots of nice rock scratches on the hoops and all).

This past summer I rode the Berd wheel set in the most technical MTB race that I've ever participated in without hesitation. Wheels were no worse for the wear. My body on the other hand took ~5 days to recover from all the gut busting punchy climbs and rocky shakin goin on LOL.


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## Just J (Feb 14, 2005)

edubfromktown said:


> No different in how I treat them compared to other wheel sets. I built up a set of Light Bicycle carbon wheels back in ~2012 and heard from Stan's employees (at an MTB event) and others that I was going to die :skep: That wheel set is still going strong (with lots of nice rock scratches on the hoops and all).
> 
> This past summer I rode the Berd wheel set in the most technical MTB race that I've ever participated in without hesitation. Wheels were no worse for the wear. My body on the other hand took ~5 days to recover from all the gut busting punchy climbs and rocky shakin goin on LOL.


LOL that's good to know, thanks! I also ran a couple of sets of LB's with zero issues.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

mikesee said:


> If you're talking strictly dollars and grams, ok.
> 
> If you factor in ride quality, I think the Berd's are still worth it. I feel lots of braking windup with Aerolites, and CX-Rays just plain ride harsh.
> 
> ...


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

If I was building new wheels I'd use the Berd spokes.

That said I have 2 year used wheels with CX Rays and I literally just received yesterday an $87 box of spare spokes for them as I keep breaking them. Just too old of a wheel set with too much already invested in spokes to make a change at this time.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Suns_PSD said:


> If I was building new wheels I'd use the Berd spokes.
> 
> That said I have 2 year used wheels with CX Rays and I literally just received yesterday an $87 box of spare spokes for them as I keep breaking them. Just too old of a wheel set with too much already invested in spokes to make a change at this time.


You could replace them all for less than the cost of replacements. Just sayin.


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## poynt (Jan 15, 2004)

I would have liked to have buy the spokes and do a build myself, sending rims.hubs to the US with the thought of then having to pay even more on importation puts the cost up too much. Also the fact that you can only get the black spokes on their own builds and not sold sepertely is another factor at the moment.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

peabody said:


> how could cx rays ride differently than aerolites? aren't they essentially the same spoke (dimensions) made by 2 different companies?


I'll leave it to an enginerd to explain *how*.

I'll just leave it at "they do".


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

life behind bars said:


> You could replace them all for less than the cost of replacements. Just sayin.


Doing it myself I presume you mean?

I've never built wheels and am darn busy. But maybe some day.

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## Klaster_1 (Jan 7, 2018)

poynt said:


> Also the fact that you can only get the black spokes on their own builds and not sold sepertely is another factor at the moment.


Oh, blacks spokes are already available? Any photos? I couldn't find examples on their web site.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

This was in an email I got from Berd just 3 days ago, make of it what you will.

"We are piloting black spokes at the moment, but we are not offering them commercially yet. I still recommend white as this is the natural color of the material, whereas the black coating can chip/fade over time. "


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

mikesee said:


> I'll leave it to an enginerd to explain *how*.
> 
> I'll just leave it at "they do".


Actually looking at the specs of both spokes on their sites, the cx ray has about 4% less cross sectional area in the bladed portion .9mmx2.2mm vs .9mmx2.3mm. They should perform the exact opposite of what you are feeling. If you can even feel a difference.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

peabody said:


> Actually looking at the specs of both spokes on their sites, the cx ray has about 4% less cross sectional area in the bladed portion .9mmx2.2mm vs .9mmx2.3mm. They should perform the exact opposite of what you are feeling. If you can even feel a difference.


I've already told you that I can, and I've explained what I feel.

It's been a minute since I did this, but I laced a few sets of wheels for my XC bike. All same hubs, same rims, same tires run in the same orientation at same pressures. Only the spokes were different, although tensions were more or less identical.

CX-Rays, Aerolites, Rev's, and SuperComps were the 4 options tested.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

peabody said:


> Actually looking at the specs of both spokes on their sites, the cx ray has about 4% less cross sectional area in the bladed portion .9mmx2.2mm vs .9mmx2.3mm. They should perform the exact opposite of what you are feeling. If you can even feel a difference.


I don't have any (pain in the arse IMO) CX bladed spokes but among all the straight, double and triple butted spoke wheels I have, the Berd setup feels different.

Sort of felt like riding on thin carpet with the added dampening from the spokes when I first ran them. Now, I don't notice it as much when I swap that wheel set on or off one of my bikes.

If you want another rabbit hole mind bender to consider: which lacing pattern?

2/3 cross is what I did (An oldie but goodie thread https://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/rear-wheel-build-3-cross-vs-2-3-cross-694623.html).

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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

edubfromktown said:


> I don't have any (pain in the arse IMO) CX bladed spokes but among all the straight, double and triple butted spoke wheels I have, the Berd setup feels different.
> 
> Sort of felt like riding on thin carpet with the added dampening from the spokes when I first ran them. Now, I don't notice it as much when I swap that wheel set on or off one of my bikes.
> 
> ...


There's no doubt the BERD ride different it's a completely
different material and size.


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## poynt (Jan 15, 2004)

I got that reply from Charlie as well. I see Pi-Rope are doing a black build now, obviously different material but can see it looks nicer than white


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

I was interested in trying the Berd spokes on a couple wheelsets with DT Swiss 240 & 190 hubs. I emailed them about 3 weeks ago and never got a response. 

My wheels are fine so I saved myself ~$1200. Oh well.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Interesting....I emailed them about 3 weeks ago concerning their wheel rebuild program and the guy emailed me right back a couple of times and was trying to close the deal... Seemed eager enough. Sometimes things just get dropped I guess.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

I have not had any problems contacting them.........Our shop just sent them five wheelsets to be built.


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## MarkMass (Sep 10, 2006)

The bike industry is funny. It's a relatively expensive recreation/hobby that I really enjoy. I generally go for high-end products and am willing to pay for it, but I won't beg or plead.

For example, I was a happy customer of Push Industries and had a fork and shock serviced by them. I asked Push about sending them another fork and they never responded. I moved on and haven't used them since.



Preston67 said:


> Interesting....I emailed them about 3 weeks ago concerning their wheel rebuild program and the guy emailed me right back a couple of times and was trying to close the deal... Seemed eager enough. Sometimes things just get dropped I guess.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

MarkMass said:


> The bike industry is funny. It's a relatively expensive recreation/hobby that I really enjoy. I generally go for high-end products and am willing to pay for it, but I won't beg or plead.
> 
> For example, I was a happy customer of Push Industries and had a fork and shock serviced by them. I asked Push about sending them another fork and they never responded. I moved on and haven't used them since.


So, would you say every time you asked your mama for a cookie, she gave you one, or did you sometimes have to ask a second time?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Was the DIY thread deleted?

So tired of snapping Sapims every other week and looking for alternatives. 

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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Suns_PSD said:


> Was the DIY thread deleted?
> 
> So tired of snapping Sapims every other week and looking for alternatives.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


because enough information was on it to appear like patent infringement... so shut down to make that go away. no one wants a piece of a patent lawsuit. mtbr included.

there still may be someone out there doing DIY but not on these boards


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Did the price come down on these yet?


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

waltaz said:


> Did the price come down on these yet?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No..........


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

127.0.0.1 said:


> each spoke itself can 'inhale' if you will, dust dirt and water, and each individual spoke will see different levels of this


Before tensioning, I agree -- they can retain some dirt, dust, dye, or liquids.

Once tensioned to any reasonable % of what people tension wheels to these days, no.

Tension pulls the weave of the fabric tight, locking the fabric against intrusion.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Just mailed the guys at Berd some new Carbon Fan rims and Project 321 hubs I had obtained for another project that didn't work out.

It's the same hubs that I currently use on my Nobls, however the rims are a bit different and of course the spokes are different as they will be Berds (from Sapims on my Nobls). Trying to limit the variables for a back to back comparison but not sure that's entirely possible. The new build may or may not end up with identical tires. It appears that I'm going to save a solid .75# of rotating weight (the rims themselves are lighter as well) which will be nice. Of course lighter hubs are available but I didn't feel the lighter options were appropriate for Enduro usage so I stuck with what I know to work.

As far as the earlier comments about them being unresponsive to emails, I suspect something got lost in a spam folder or otherwise, because in my case they have been very responsive to both emails and phone calls.

Will update in about 1 month.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I only got my hubs and rims to Charlie at Berd late last week.

They usually take about 2 weeks for a build, but since I'm getting black spokes they told me to expect 3 weeks before the wheels ship back to me.

The cost seems fair to me as long as the product lasts me years. $595 for black Berd spokes including shipping back to me is maybe $250 more than I'd spend on high end steel spokes I'm thinking.

It sounds like Berd is busy, I gathered they were doing a lot of these currently. Not sure if they lace them and then let wheels sit for a period of time and then re-tension and that adds to the length of the build process or what?

I did ask if they could shrink wrap the very bottom where the spoke is joined to the fabric to make it look more finished, they said 'no'. Oh well.

They are understandably reluctant to answer tons of detailed questions about their methodology and decisions since they want to sell product, not help others replicate their work. But when I was pursing other colors I did ask why they couldn't use any color of UEMPH (or whatever its called) since the stuff is readily available in many colors and they indicated to me that there is a specific reason they don't use that material.

I'm pretty confident that they have a well tested product and I hope to update in about 4 more weeks.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm not big on colors- spokes or (brass) nipples... black Berd's do sound cool 

I'd imagine Berd laces the wheels and lets them sit before re-tensioning (as recommended) so that would add some time to the build for sure. They should last for a long time...

My plain old non-colored/white spoke build is still going strong after a number of trail hours on dirt/rocks/roots plus a few work commutes and gravel rides (on different bikes in my stable). 

The spokes pickup some dirt here and there but it comes off easily on the few occasions that I selectively hose off my bike. I'm curious if the black color with chip off or is the material dyed black.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

I've been on a loaner wheelset of Reynolds TR6 hubs laced with white Berd spokes to Chinese 30mm superlight carbon rims, and have 2+ months and 643 miles on them, on my Yeti SB100. I've ridden them very hard, including some very rocky and chunky stuff and have to say, I love the Berds, and am going to miss them. The white color, which I didn't like at first, has really grown on me, and I genuinely like how sharp the wheels look, and how they look on the bike. They contribute to a very light wheelset which spins up rapidly, and an amazingly compliant ride. And every spoke is just as taut as the day I picked up the bike. I've had nothing but a positive experience with them, and will likely pay the price for them in the future.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

They really get glowing reviews from all around, not one bad one. No breakage, nothing, a year in.

It made sense to go with them at the price point and with how proven they are.

Mine will not be a WW build, but will be pretty WW for an Enduro capable wheel set and all in I'm going to save some real weight over my current NOBL wheels. Plus the ride improvements.

Pretty excited about them really.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> They really get glowing reviews from all around, not one bad one. No breakage, nothing, a year in.
> 
> It made sense to go with them at the price point and with how proven they are.
> 
> ...


That's awesome! Can't wait to see how they look!

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Just got word that my BERD/ CarbonFan/ Project 321 wheels are completed and shipping back to me today. They told me 3 weeks and knocked it out in about 2. No complaints there.

I'll update with first photos and weights next week and ride reports and reliability experiences after that.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

1480 grams for the pair with non-WW hubs and a DH layup rear rim and a 33mm ID front. 
Finish is impeccable.









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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> 1480 grams for the pair with non-WW hubs and a DH layup rear rim and a 33mm ID front.
> Finish is impeccable.
> 
> 
> ...


Nice. Look forward to hearing more.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Using the same model hubs as my Nobl TR36s. These are CarbonFan rims with the Berds.
I saved approximately 350g! The exact amount was hard to determine as I made several changes at once. 
I then added in an insert (+72g tubolight), swapped to a heavy slower rolling front tire (+100g) so my net weight loss was closer to 180g.
I did a test ride with the old tires and I could instantly feel the weight difference, the bike spun up so quickly. Then I swapped to a pretty piggish front tire (MSC gripper) and it slowed the bike right down to where I started but at least I'll have great front traction. I struggled last weekend with front traction on some Enduro lines with a front Eliminator so was looking to change. 
I love the shape of the front tire on the 34mm ID wheel. Perfect roundness. The rear tire (2.35 Rock Razor) on a 29mm ID is a bit flat for my taste and I would consider a 27-28mm rear width rim if doing it again.
Doing a little trail ride with the wife tomorrow for a shake down run, then headed to a little lift assisted bike park on Sunday to break them in proper. 
I like to weigh my bike when I make a change in it's ready to ride condition which includes: bash guard, pedals, all of my tools and pump, Avy fork cartridge,and 2 wheel inserts, and the bike weighs 30#s on the dot which is incredible. It's honestly a 27# Enduro bike if I weighed it bare as most do. And being a Large Mondraker it's as large as most XLs.








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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Also I need to give a shout out to Berd's packaging. Included in their cost was two seperate boxes taped together, each wheel packaged nicely, a bike water bottle branded 'Berd'. Several spare spokes, a custom tool, and a spec sheet. 
All very nice. 
I imagined the wheels were going to look a little home built but they look very professional, even, and flawless. Impressed. 

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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> Also I need to give a shout out to Berd's packaging. Included in their cost was two seperate boxes taped together, each wheel packaged nicely, a bike water bottle branded 'Berd'. Several spare spokes, a custom tool, and a spec sheet.
> All very nice.
> I imagined the wheels were going to look a little home built but they look very professional, even, and flawless. Impressed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Can you show a close up of the spoke connection at the nipple?

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Sure.









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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Nailed it! Really happy with the set up overall but need more real ride time on it to really know.

Just did a short XC loop with the wife this afternoon with just a handful of rock gardens and the trail felt so muted that I checked my front tire air pressure a few times. That high frequency chattery feeling you get when your flying down a XC trail at a good rate of speed was just missing. In a way it felt like I was going slow but I was not. The front tire was hooking up super well which I'd love to give credit to my 28 spoke front end for, but realistically moving to a grippier tire was most certainly the culprit.

Really nothing else to report except to say the bike felt like it got up to speed real easily and that even in late September it's just too darn hot/ humid in Central Texas.


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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

Any chance the spokes can fray at the connection point?

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

bogeydog said:


> Any chance the spokes can fray at the connection point?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I think being fabric, they absolutely can fray everywhere on their length. 
Am I worried about them fraying to the point where they are damaged or broken? Nope. 
That said I'll use caution with them.

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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

they won't crack from rock scratch propagation like metal spokes often do...huge advantage to overall lifetime


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Knocked out 9 fast miles on the Austin greenbelt using these new wheels. The greenbelt is very chunky.
Very nice ride quality from these wheels. A real pleasure to ride. 
Even with a draggy front tire the wheels spin up quite fast. 
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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> they won't crack from rock scratch propagation like metal spokes often do...huge advantage to overall lifetime


A couple months ago I nicked/frayed the outer covering on one of the Berd spokes on an off angle flying rock hit. Still holds tension just fine and I'm not replacing unless tension or trueness go sideways 

Had occasional issues with conventional spokes over the years (on old wheel sets with steel spokes- straight, double and triple butted):

My wife snapped a triple ~2" from the hub (still don't know how she managed that!), I've snapped a few at the j-bend and had issues with straight spokes mounted on Stan's Flow rims at the nipple interface side. On that wheel, replacing the fancy colored aluminum nipples with brass resolved that issue.

No matter the spoke material, I still prefer 32 hole so that if one or even two adjacent spokes fail, you can ride out. Some of my friends with 28 and 24 spoke wheels had to do the walk of shame due to excessive tire rub when a single (conventional spoke- most often bladed!) failed.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> they won't crack from rock scratch propagation like metal spokes often do...huge advantage to overall lifetime


Often?


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Jayem said:


> Often?


If you nick a spoke...

often those nicked spokes will end up busting where the nick is

rocks, where the rock nicked it
chain between cassette and spokes, any of the nicked spokes

I am not saying 'spoke nicks happen often',
I am saying 'nicked spokes often break'...because ...metal fatigue and stress points from the area that is nicked

steel takes a while aluminum takes less time,

berd or dyneema can take damage and it doesn't propagate to other fibers 
you'd have to try harder than just tossing the bike into the rocks to bust one

and I haven't seen it nor done it but imagine chain drop into berd spokes, they might come out of it just fine, just smudgier and a little furry


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

127.0.0.1 said:


> If you nick a spoke...
> 
> often those nicked spokes will end up busting where the nick is
> 
> ...


my takeaway here is:

a nick to aluminum or steel reduces the amount of steel or aluminum that is tensioned, thereby reducing the tensile strength of the spoke.
a nick to dyneema does not reduce the amount of dyneema that is tensioned, and the spoke's tensile strength remains the same?


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

tdc_worm said:


> my takeaway here is:
> 
> a nick to aluminum or steel reduces the amount of steel or aluminum that is tensioned, thereby reducing the tensile strength of the spoke.
> a nick to dyneema does not reduce the amount of dyneema that is tensioned, and the spoke's tensile strength remains the same?


sure you lose tensile strength in all forms of spokes with any bit of damage, but flexing damaged metal spokes, they -will- end up breaking sooner or later. tension or no tension. if a berd spoke survives the initial [whatever damage] it's gonna stay at that level of damage no matter how much you keep riding, unless you damage it more by some slicing or cutting action

if you nick metal, even the tiniest amount, you create a place it can spread cracks, eventually breaking

if you nick a berd spoke, all that is affected is the fibers you sliced at the time, and since the strength of dyneema is overkill in spades for a bike wheel, you'd really have to slice the bejeesus out of it to affect wheel integrity. I don't see how that can happen with a typical eva into a pile of rocks, which can kill metal spokes lifetime easily

I can see how berd spokes can easily get 'furry' in their lifetime and use, but to actually become damaged enough to matter ? not with typical bike riding and wipeouts [unless you damage the chinese handcuff part]

dyneema is ridiculously strong and it can be pretty 'furry' and still outclass the strongest comparable steel spoke


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

127.0.0.1 said:


> sure you lose tensile strength in all forms of spokes with any bit of damage, but flexing damaged metal spokes, they -will- end up breaking sooner or later. tension or no tension. if a berd spoke survives the initial [whatever damage] it's gonna stay at that level of damage no matter how much you keep riding, unless you damage it more by some slicing or cutting action
> 
> if you nick metal, even the tiniest amount, you create a place it can spread cracks, eventually breaking
> 
> ...


theoretically, i hear what you are saying. also, theoretically, my bet is that the steel/aluminum spoke failure is secondary to the reduced ability to carry tension and not to flexing.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

I bought an SB100 back in June (non-carbon wheels), and ordered I9 Hydra hubs for a custom carbon wheelset. Because the Hydras were backordered, my LBS gave me a loaner carbon wheelset - brand new Chinese carbon 30mm hoops laced to Reynolds TR6 hubs with Berd spokes. Super, super lightweight. I put 692 miles on these wheels, and really, really enjoyed the ride - seemed to spin up very quickly, and the ride was very supple. Now, mind you, I'd never ridden the SB100 without this wheelset, so to me, that was just how the bike rode, but it was hard to quantify exactly what the wheels contributed.

My hubs FINALLY came in last week, and I picked up the new wheelset earlier this week - I9 Hydras laced to the same Chinese carbon 30mm hoops with the "usual" spokes. Did my first ride on them this morning, on trails I've ridden a zillion times. I didn't really notice the weight difference (at least 200 g in the spokes alone), but I definitely noticed a "stiffer", more jarring ride. The Berds dampen trail chatter and vibration, and I could definitely feel that was increased. The Hydras were amazing...man, did I miss that engagement. I've got Torches on two other bikes, and they sound like a rattlesnake, but the Hydras sound like a bunch of angry wasps. Very cool..

Anyway, I am considering sending these brand-new wheels into Berd to have them rebuilt with Berds. I miss that suppleness of ride that much...


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

edubfromktown said:


> No matter the spoke material, I still prefer 32 hole so that if one or even two adjacent spokes fail, you can ride out. Some of my friends with 28 and 24 spoke wheels had to do the walk of shame due to excessive tire rub when a single (conventional spoke- most often bladed!) failed.


I choose 28 spokes up front not to save weight (the Berd's only weigh like 2.3 grams each anyways) but in an attempt to get lateral compliance up front for better traction and line holding. Also knowing that the wider box section front rim I was running (compared to the more narrow rear) would naturally be stiffer. Of course the amount of relative compliance was just a WAG, but I was trying to sort of copy the Synthesis wheels but with Berds. It certainly didn't save any money! Anyways, CF wheels shouldn't go out of true just losing one spoke, even on a 28H. Besides it certainly won't rub on the front. I have 32H in the rear plus a DH layup rim so not too worried.

These new wheels really do ride nicely on rough trails. They seem to have no history of failures even under big DHers. I do a few 15-20' jumps and 4-5' drops but am not some super shredder however I need them to hold up to that usage. I had pretty much arrived at running tire inserts front and rear already but with these wheels costing me so much and being more complicated to relace, I won't take any chances. They will always have Tubolights or Pepi's front and rear.

One set of NOBL TR36s with P321s for sale!

Really don't get why all but 1 wheel manufacturer is producing their front and rear wheels to be identical when each end of the bike has such different requirements for optimum performance.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Suns_PSD said:


> ...Really don't get why all but 1 wheel manufacturer is producing their front and rear wheels to be identical...


They all better have different f/r hubs and different dish. And they often have different spoke counts. What's the same are the rims...except perhaps for the number of holes.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I suppose I don't consider different hubs relevant, just a requirement for the freewheel. 
Besides Crank Bros, every brand of modern wheels uses the same layup, the same width, and the same # of spokes front to rear when at this point it's common knowledge that: 1) due to less weight on the front it needs a more aggressive and wider tire/ rim, whereas 2) the rear needs a faster rolling more narrow tire/ rim because that's where most of the rolling resistance comes from and with more weight on it traction is higher anyways, and 3) most broken rims occur in the rear so comparatively the rear should be a heavier layup, and 4) pedal power is transferred to the rear so it should have more lateral stability to efficiently transfer energy, whereas 5) the front should have less comparative lateral stability to track better as it steers and naturally has less weight on it.
There is a legitimate reason why all tire nerds run different tires front to rear and those same reasons should be reflected in the rims they chose. 
Now that bike geo has gotten so much better the manufacturers will look at other ways to improve their stock builds and this would be an easy place to start. 

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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Cost of manufacturing, you are having to do things by a factor of two once you start using different rims for front and rear wheelsets. You are better off as a consumer mixing and matching on your own. If the industry thinks they can make more money doing this, then they are going to and pass the cost on to you, the consumer. You have already been able to buy the same width F/R rims with different layups and different width/different layups. Virtually all carbon rim producers offer this. They make rims for the most part. Wheel manufacturers on the other hand are more into economy of scale and cranking out OEM wheels for bikes, that's where the $$ is, and I'm sure the same F/R rims is part of controlling their costs. 

There always were options, you just bought a different front and rear wheel, that made your "wheelset". That they should "match" as far as brand and look is just vanity/aesthetics.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I need a refresher: On a 29" 32 spoke wheelset how much weight do these save over CX-Ray spokes?


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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

Lelandjt said:


> I need a refresher: On a 29" 32 spoke wheelset how much weight do these save over CX-Ray spokes?


Approx 128g

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

8 'deep compression events' and about 12 seconds in the air according to ShockWiz on my ride today and the Berds nor wheels appear no worse for the wear. 
Bike felt great and a good bit less chattery.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Lelandjt said:


> I need a refresher: On a 29" 32 spoke wheelset how much weight do these save over CX-Ray spokes?


Weight of 1 Berd and weight of one CX-Ray (which is about 1 gram lighter than a standard spoke).










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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Weight of 1 Berd and weight of one CX-Ray (which is about 1 gram lighter than a standard spoke).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My spokes are 6g each, and my wheels are 28-hole. Factoring Berds at 2g, that is 4g x 56 spokes (front and rear), for a total savings of 224g. Even if the Berds were 2.5g each, that's a savings of 196g. The suppleness of the ride is a bonus.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

A half pound rotating is quite a bit. I saved more just because I went with different rims and had more spokes as well.

I think Berd is a no brainer for a new wheel build as you barely spend any extra anyways on custom wheels.

On existing wheels there is more to consider. 

So happy with my new wheels!


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> If you nick a spoke...
> 
> often those nicked spokes will end up busting where the nick is
> 
> ...


I don't get overly concerned about nicking spokes... tends to happen more often on my rear wheels because I am running wider tires that do no leave much room for rocks, sticks, etc. to pass between the tire and chain stays when they get kicked up on occasion. None of those dings have caused any spokes to fail on a number of wheel sets (some of which have been rolling for over a decade).

I nicked one Berd front wheel spoke. It lost some tension and is fine (I added enough tension back to true the wheel).


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

I nicked two i9 spokes in a get-off into a rock wall

one busted in 10 rides the other in 5 more rides...trivial to replace but those i9 aluminum spokes are not happy with slight damage. of course not smacking into rocks is cool too.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

I decided to send my new wheelset out to Berd to have it rebuilt with Berds - 30mm Chinese carbon hoops and I9 Hydra hubs. Placed the order for a rebuild in their online store yesterday morning; Charlie responded this morning (<24hours) with the tracking number for the boxes (I'm having them send me the boxes and label to ship my wheels to them). Prior to this, I had emailed with a couple questions, and received responses either immediately or within 24 hours. Really looking forward to these!


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## Sid Duffman (Oct 5, 2015)

waltaz said:


> I decided to send my new wheelset out to Berd to have it rebuilt with Berds - 30mm Chinese carbon hoops and I9 Hydra hubs. Placed the order for a rebuild in their online store yesterday morning; Charlie responded this morning (<24hours) with the tracking number for the boxes (I'm having them send me the boxes and label to ship my wheels to them). Prior to this, I had emailed with a couple questions, and received responses either immediately or within 24 hours. Really looking forward to these!


Nice! Keep us posted.

Do you mind sharing how much it cost for the spokes and rebuild?

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

$595, includes both wheels and shipping back to you. 

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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Suns PSD - Do you know what your bare rim weights were ? What about the hubs ? 

You hit an impressive weight target with those wheels, so I'm curious just how heavy the bare parts were so I can figure out my own deal will be.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Preston67 said:


> Suns PSD - Do you know what your bare rim weights were ? What about the hubs ?
> 
> You hit an impressive weight target with those wheels, so I'm curious just how heavy the bare parts were so I can figure out my own deal will be.


Rear rim bare was 425g, front rim bare was 422g.
The rear rim is a downhill layup, where the front wheel is an all mountain layup. However as the front all mountain layup is 5 mm wider, that's where the additional weight comes from making them so close.

I didn't weigh the hubs as they shipped directly to Berd but P321 lists the weights as 168 g & 282g.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

waltaz said:


> I decided to send my new wheelset out to Berd to have it rebuilt with Berds - 30mm Chinese carbon hoops and I9 Hydra hubs. Placed the order for a rebuild in their online store yesterday morning; Charlie responded this morning (<24hours) with the tracking number for the boxes (I'm having them send me the boxes and label to ship my wheels to them). Prior to this, I had emailed with a couple questions, and received responses either immediately or within 24 hours. Really looking forward to these!


Nice... I went with pricer Nextie NXT29UL30 offset hole rims built on DT240s hubs and they've been awesome.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

My rear Berd rim has settled or moved or whatever and is 1-2mm out of true in one spot. It's a result of a day at Spider mountain with some jumps, Black diamond drops, and what not. It's not critical and doesn't rub or anything but once I finish off this tire in another few weeks I'll have it re-trued by my local shop.

I must say there was a distinct feeling in a few spots when I would land from a jump and there was lots of weight on the rear wheel and I was leaned that it felt 'different'. I suspect it was just laterally flexing a bit. Whatever, still loving these wheels.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Due to the nature of the spoke interface, I assume it can only be trued/tightened from the backside with the tire off ?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Preston67 said:


> Due to the nature of the spoke interface, I assume it can only be trued/tightened from the backside with the tire off ?


Nope -- possible to true from "outside", with tire still in place.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

My local shop trued it for me from the outside and it was barely off. Most of what I was seeing was wobble in the tire, not the wheel. 


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

edubfromktown said:


> Nice... I went with pricer Nextie NXT29UL30 offset hole rims built on DT240s hubs and they've been awesome.


That's a scary light rim!

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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> That's a scary light rim!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


They've been bombproof for my just under 200 lb jolly old self.

I've ridden them in ridiculously rocky Michaux State Forest, PA and similarly rocky/technical Frederick MD; Patapsco State Park, MD and all sorts of other area trails plus urban assault rides down staircases and other "features".

I run them tubeless: front ~18 psi and ~25 psi rear.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Feeling pretty lucky I got my black Berds when I did as they just increased their prices significantly and I absolutely love them. 
Before on a new build, Berds were an easy decision, now they are some high dollar spokes!
Hope mine last me indefinitely. 

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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Feeling pretty lucky I got my black Berds when I did as they just increased their prices significantly and I absolutely love them.
> Before on a new build, Berds were an easy decision, now they are some high dollar spokes!
> Hope mine last me indefinitely.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


You consider 39 cents a significant increase?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

the mayor said:


> You consider 39 cents a significant increase?


Yes it's huge! 

By my reading I paid $595 for both wheels including shipping and it's now $450/ wheel.

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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Yes it's huge!
> 
> By my reading I paid $595 for both wheels including shipping and it's now $450/ wheel.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


It's now $625 for a set of wheels with 64 spokes....or 39 cents per spoke.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

the mayor said:


> It's now $625 for a set of wheels with 64 spokes....or 39 cents per spoke.


Link?

Cause here is the link I'm looking at: https://berdspokes.com/collections/berd-wheels/products/berd-wheel-rebuilding?variant=30299667169376

Which to rebuild 1 wheel with anything less than 44 spokes with black Berd's cost $475/ wheel.

And I don't mean this as a jab to Berd as I love mine, just glad I got it before demand resulted in a price increase.

You can buy individual spokes for $8/ each if you have someone else build the wheels.

So glad I have mine!


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Link?
> 
> Cause here is the link I'm looking at: https://berdspokes.com/collections/berd-wheels/products/berd-wheel-rebuilding?variant=30299667169376
> 
> ...


The costs haven't increased at all, other than the option to use black Berd spokes at +$25. Otherwise, it's the same pricing as it has been. I know, because I purchased a rebuild and just shipped my wheels out to them yesterday. I plugged in my info again, and it's the same.

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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Link?
> 
> Cause here is the link I'm looking at: https://berdspokes.com/collections/berd-wheels/products/berd-wheel-rebuilding?variant=30299667169376
> 
> ...


Psst....Sunshine....on that link you provided...use the drop down and select 64 spokes (which is 2 wheels). Internetting is hard.
On the individual spoke page....they had the black spokes for $8.39 for black....but it was taken down yesterday for some reason


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

the mayor said:


> Psst....Sunshine....on that link you provided...use the drop down and select 64 spokes (which is 2 wheels). Internetting is hard.
> On the individual spoke page....they had the black spokes for $8.39 for black....but it was taken down yesterday for some reason


Doh!

I'll let myself out...


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Doh!
> 
> I'll let myself out...


Hahaha! It happens.
If that's your biggest mistake of the day...for me, that would be a pretty good day.
Just had a set of Mikesee built Berd wheels show up...can't wait to roll them


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

well

just saw a wheel that had a chain jam between cassette and berd spokes and der got eaten as well...unconf*kulated it and...didn't do anything to the berds except smudge them with mung. berds just laughed at the chain grinding against them.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

127.0.0.1 said:


> well
> 
> just saw a wheel that had a chain jam between cassette and berd spokes and der got eaten as well...unconf*kulated it and...didn't do anything to the berds except smudge them with mung. berds just laughed at the chain grinding against them.


I've been using UHMWPE cord for another project recently (building a yurt) and it's quite amazing how resilient this stuff is to abrasion, cutting, etc.

I have to use a pair of VERY sharp and very sturdy scissors, and exert a LOT of force, to cut through 3mm cord.


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## TX_CLG (Sep 14, 2010)

127.0.0.1 said:


> well
> 
> just saw a wheel that had a chain jam between cassette and berd spokes and der got eaten as well...unconf*kulated it and...didn't do anything to the berds except smudge them with mung. berds just laughed at the chain grinding against them.


Wow... this might have sold me on them. Got a set of wheels that I dropped a chain between the cassette and spokes after I wrecked and didn't check the derailleur was straight&#8230; it was like a chainsaw on the CX-Rays, lots 5 spokes immediately, shot one through the rim tape and I was walking back to the car with flat tire, bent hanger, and sealant all over the place.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Got a couple of rides on mine now.
Definitely soaks up some of the trail chatter compared to my other wheels.
These are 240 hubs laced to Nox Kitsu rims by Lacemine29.

My other wheels are 240s laced with Lasers to Nexties and 350s laced with Lasers to Raceface ARC35s


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Did notice that when I stand and pedal really hard it doesn't feel as instant for just a moment before it zooms off. Maybe it's a lack of chatter (which is definitely real), not sure it really matters.

If you have ever ridden on Onyx hubs and noticed that softness when you initiate hard pedaling, it's very similar to that. Was extremely close to going with Onyx Vesper's on this wheel build and I wouldn't want that sensation x2 so glad I stuck with P321s.

I suspect that the Berd wheels have increased 'radial' compliance and it's just a hair of windup when you begin to pedal. No biggie either way.

My entire bike just has a lack of drama these days, thing feels easy to ride fast.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

My Berd wheels are on the way back to me! The process has been easy and fast, and Charlie has proactively communicated with me at each step. Berd took one week from receipt of my wheels (last Friday, 10/11) to de-lace them, rebuild them with Berd spokes, and then ship them back out to me (Friday, 10/18). They will be here next week via UPS.

I did the white spokes, because I like how they look with my bike (Yeti SB100), and they were also a few days faster than the (new) black spoke option they have. I'll post up pics and weight as soon as I receive them...can't wait!


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

Ordered a rebuild today. I love riding rigid bikes, but a bad wreck last year and associated broken bones and nerve damage has made it more difficult. I'm hoping the spokes will help smooth things out a little. Primarily want to reduce fatigue on longer 50+ mile rides, and make it easier to hold on to the bars on chattery sections. 

I currently have a little over 2,500 miles on my wheelset and am very familiar with how they ride, so I should be able to compare with little to no placebo effects. 

Rims are Kappius XCW 40i
Spokes are cxray 28 front 32 rear
Hubs are p321

I have the same hub spacing on my wife's hardtail and my short travel FS, so I plan to do some comparisons if I can find the time. She has derby 40i and I have Enve 635.

Lots of variables but I hope it will be easy to determine how much of a difference the spokes make for rigid, hardtail, and full suspension. All have cxray spokes and large tires, so the I don't think weight savings will be noticeable, but I'm primarily interested in comfort and ride characteristics. 



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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

coke said:


> Ordered a rebuild today. I love riding rigid bikes, but a bad wreck last year and associated broken bones and nerve damage has made it more difficult. I'm hoping the spokes will help smooth things out a little. Primarily want to reduce fatigue on longer 50+ mile rides, and make it easier to hold on to the bars on chattery sections.
> ...
> Lots of variables but I hope it will be easy to determine how much of a difference the spokes make for rigid, hardtail, and full suspension. All have cxray spokes and large tires, so the I don't think weight savings will be noticeable, but I'm primarily interested in comfort and ride characteristics.


Cool! I sent off a box of parts earlier this week, too. I have been following these fancy strings for a while and I finally heard enough good things that I decided to give them a shot. For me pretty much anything that can help with my gimpy hands is worth it. Even a subtle improvement is still an improvement, and these spokes seem to have a lot to offer. I'm hoping for them to be smooth riding, tough and durable. Light is a bonus but if I cared about weight too much I wouldn't be running Onyx hubs.

I have an almost identical wheelset on a different bike built with Sapim Lasers, so it will be interesting to do some back to back comparisons. These wheels will consist of BTLOS M-i29A rims with Onyx Classic hubs, 32h. And I'll be using them on an Ibis Ripley.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

coke said:


> Ordered a rebuild today. I love riding rigid bikes, but a bad wreck last year and associated broken bones and nerve damage has made it more difficult. I'm hoping the spokes will help smooth things out a little. Primarily want to reduce fatigue on longer 50+ mile rides, and make it easier to hold on to the bars on chattery sections.
> 
> I currently have a little over 2,500 miles on my wheelset and am very familiar with how they ride, so I should be able to compare with little to no placebo effects.


I'm over 60...with 50 years of moto and mtb racing....so plenty of injuries here.

The Berds are noticable on my hardtail. It does take a little vibration out of the trail.
Nothing earth shattering....but it's there...
It's not as evident on a full suspension bike...as expected


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Did notice that when I stand and pedal really hard it doesn't feel as instant for just a moment before it zooms off. Maybe it's a lack of chatter (which is definitely real), not sure it really matters.


Yes...there is definitely a wind up with these wheels.( which is good)
If you've been around a while....they feel just like the Tioga Tension Disk wheels of the 90s....except they last longer than a few hours.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Why is it good in your opinion? Thx.

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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

the mayor said:


> Yes...there is definitely a wind up with these wheels.( which is good)
> If you've been around a while....they feel just like the Tioga Tension Disk wheels of the 90s....except they last longer than a few hours.


I'm wondering what this is going to feel like with the Onyx hubs, I can't say that I am overly sensitive to the sensation. I don't currently notice the effect so much as feel the smoothness overall in the drivetrain. I'm just looking for more of that, throughout the whole bike. It's already the nicest riding bike I have had, but anything can be improved. And I don't think I will ever get to the point that my hands aren't a limiting factor.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

the mayor said:


> Yes...there is definitely a wind up with these wheels.( which is good)
> If you've been around a while....they feel just like the Tioga Tension Disk wheels of the 90s....except they last longer than a few hours.


I hadn't noticed this on my FS rig (Yeti SB100), but I'm going to send my SS wheelset in for a Berd rebuild, so I will definitely notice any wind up on that bike (HT SS).


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## adurant (May 31, 2019)

I have a wheelset with 29er EIE carbon 30mm internal rims (360g), onyx vesper hubs, built with berd spokes sitting at home just waiting for me to get back from this business trip (haven't seen them yet). Gah !#@[email protected]%!# the wait is killing me, I've been waiting 6months for centerlock onyx vespers to finally be released, and now that I finally have them I'm not there....

Anyways first world problems aside, I'll be putting them on my sb100 replacing some cheap race face ar27 aluminum wheels with 18 engament point dt350s. I'll let you guys know if I notice any crazy windup from the onyx+berd. Also will post weights, overall thoughts etc. I'm hoping to ride it Saturday.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

I've been riding Berd spokes for a year and a half now. I definitely notice some compliance in these wheels that other identical-except-for-the-spokes wheels don't have.

I have not noticed any windup, nor flex in any plane.


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## the mayor (Nov 18, 2004)

mikesee said:


> I've been riding Berd spokes for a year and a half now. I definitely notice some compliance in these wheels that other identical-except-for-the-spokes wheels don't have.
> 
> I have not noticed any windup, nor flex in any plane.


When I say wind up....I mean that, when hammering hard up to speed....the wheel seems to spring forward. It's slight...but it's there...and unlike any other wheel I have. The only other wheel I've ever felt this was the Tiogas. The exact opposite was the Spinergy Spox...where it felt like the wheels was actually sucking up energy.

They are definitely more compliant than any other carbon wheel I have used, and better than many alloy wheels....and I don't get any flex.
All positive things. ( except maybe the cost of the spokes....lol)

Make sense???
(full disclosure: Mike built my wheels)


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

What's the difference between compliance and flex?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Lone Rager said:


> What's the difference between compliance and flex?


I define compliance as dampness. Berd wheels feel more comfortable.

I define flex as movement out of a defined plane.


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

waltaz said:


> I hadn't noticed this on my FS rig (Yeti SB100), but I'm going to send my SS wheelset in for a Berd rebuild, so I will definitely notice any wind up on that bike (HT SS).


Curious to hear your impressions after you get a ride or two on the new setup!


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Yeah keep sharing your thoughts and experiences, fascinated by these spokes. Waiting to pull the trigger later this year.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

I received the rebuilt wheels today - 18 days from when I shipped them out, with 4 days in transit with UPS each way. Berd turned them around in less than one week, and was very communicative throughout. I'm very impressed with their customer service.

I'm thrilled with the weight, and how they look. Pics to follow. Build is Chinese carbon 30mm rims and I9 Hydra Centerlock hubs, 28h, laced with the white Berd spokes. I chose white because I had them on a loaner wheelset, and like the way they look on my bike, plus they are $25 cheaper and 3-4 days faster turnaround than the black.

Weights are as follows (including tape and valve stems):
- Front: 594g
- Rear: 735g
- Total: 1,329g

This is a 226g reduction from prior to the rebuild, with the typical Sapim steel spokes (705g front, 850g rear).

I can't wait to ride these! In case you didn't see my posts above in this thread, I had a loaner set with Berds while I waited for the Hydras to arrive, and put ~700 miles on them. When I got the new Hydra wheelset, I immediately noticed the less-compliant ride, and decided to have it rebuilt with Berds. The difference is real, and noticeable, not to mention the >1/2 lb. weight savings in the wheels. They spin up ridiculously well.

Pics:


























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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

waltaz said:


> I can't wait to ride these! In case you didn't see my posts above in this thread, I had a loaner set with Berds while I waited for the Hydras to arrive, and put ~700 miles on them. *When I got the new Hydra wheelset, I immediately noticed the less-compliant ride, and decided to have it rebuilt with Berds. The difference is real, and noticeable, *not to mention the >1/2 lb. weight savings in the wheels. They spin up ridiculously well.


Curious if your Hydra wheelset had aluminum or steel spokes? Carbon or aluminum rims?


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

*OneSpeed* said:


> Curious if your Hydra wheelset had aluminum or steel spokes? Carbon or aluminum rims?


My Hydras were laced to the exact same carbon rims you see above (the same pair) with steel spokes.

The loaner Berd wheelset had the same carbon rims (though a different pair), Reynolds TR6 hubs and the Berd spokes. It was noticeably more compliant than the Hydra wheelset.

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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

What mfg and model of rim is it ? HOw much do the rims weigh ?


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## *OneSpeed* (Oct 18, 2013)

waltaz said:


> My Hydras were laced to the exact same carbon rims you see above (the same pair) with steel spokes.


Cool thanks.


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## NH Mtbiker (Nov 6, 2004)

Looks like Berd spokes are starting to gain traction with other wheel makers...in this case, Atomik Carbon. $1600 for a complete hand-built wheelset seems reasonable seeing the Berd spoke upgrade alone goes for $1200. Still finding it hard to grasp using "string" for spokes and having it hold up. Time and hard riding will tell!

Mountain
• 29" XC33 w/I9 Boost Hydra Hubs, 28 Holes: 1,410 grams
• 29" AM35 w/I9 Boost Hydra Hubs, 32 Holes: 1,610 grams
• 27.5" AM35 w/I9 Boost Hydra, 32 Holes: 1,530 grams

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/atomik-carbon-announces-berd-ultimate-wheelsets.html

*One note about their lifetime warranty -*
This warranty does not apply to parts not manufactured by Atomik Carbon, including hubs, spokes and nipples. Removing or altering the serial number in anyway will render the warranty null and void.
:madman:


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

The $595 price includes TWO wheels. 
They aren't $1200/ set but half that. 

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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Preston67 said:


> What mfg and model of rim is it ? HOw much do the rims weigh ?


Sorry; forgot about this! I'm not sure of the manufacturer and model; it's one of the Chinese manufacturers, and one of the guys who's seen them thinks it might be Light Bicycles. I'll ask the LBS who got a bulk order of the rims. Re the weight, they are roughly 400g, +/-. I backed into the weights and came up with 388g for one, and 405g for the other, though those weights may be off slightly.

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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Sent my SS wheelset in yesterday for a Berd rebuild: Nox Farlow rims, 32h, orange I9 Torch hubs (rear SS-specific). Going with black Berds on this one. Will post up pics and weights when I get it back!


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## jpfurn (Oct 21, 2014)

So this thread has caught my attention and I definitely will be going with Berd Spokes on my next wheelset. I was checking out their complete wheelsets on their webpage and they have XC Series Carbon wheels for sale. I was wondering what rim they use with that build. They are too narrow for me, but may work great on my wife's bike.

https://berdspokes.com/collections/...c-series-carbon-wheels?variant=30207156027488


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## jpfurn (Oct 21, 2014)

I have another quick question. Sorry if it has already been asked, but are these spokes hard to keep clean? It’s extremely dusty where I ride and was curious if they look nasty most of the time and if a simple rinse does the job?


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## Ruckus99ss (Aug 31, 2014)

jpfurn said:


> So this thread has caught my attention and I definitely will be going with Berd Spokes on my next wheelset. I was checking out their complete wheelsets on their webpage and they have XC Series Carbon wheels for sale. I was wondering what rim they use with that build. They are too narrow for me, but may work great on my wife's bike.
> 
> https://berdspokes.com/collections/...c-series-carbon-wheels?variant=30207156027488


I just ordered a set of hydra xc25s


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## wschruba (Apr 13, 2012)

jpfurn said:


> I have another quick question. Sorry if it has already been asked, but are these spokes hard to keep clean? It's extremely dusty where I ride and was curious if they look nasty most of the time and if a simple rinse does the job?


UHMWPE is easy to keep clean, especially when it has tension on it (read: laced into a functional wheel). The outside can be washed with any mild detergents (so, bike/auto washes).

It tends not to get particularly dirty in the first place; it is used commonly in fishing, and the line stays quite clean, compared to fresh stuff off the spool.

Maybe it won't be bright white, but unless you're bleaching your teeth, you probably won't have a problem with it.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

No problem keeping clean at all.

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## jpfurn (Oct 21, 2014)

Good to hear, thanks guys!


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Same rims, hubs, tape and tubeless valves.


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

Mine came in today.

157 super boost rear

Boost front

29 x 40internal rims

1569g for the set









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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

tom tom said:


> Same rims, hubs, tape and tubeless valves.
> Steel spokes are Sapim Laser Spokes about $1.25 ea.


What size (ie butted, double butted ) metal spokes were they ?



> Mine came in today.
> 
> 157 super boost rear
> 
> ...


What did the bare rims weigh ?


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

Preston67 said:


> What did the bare rims weigh ?


I've never weighed them but they are supposed to be 435 +/- 15.

Wheelset does seem to add up a little more than the sum of all the advertised weights. I did add grease to quiet the rear hub.

Rims and Hubs have around 2500 miles on them and I'm extremely happy with the combo. Just switched to berd to help smooth the ride on my rigid bike. I don't really care much about the weight.

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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

According to my math they're pretty much right on target. 435g is pretty light for 40mm rim. I think you're doing just fine. Let us know how they feel, if you can really tell any difference or not.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

waltaz said:


> Sent my SS wheelset in yesterday for a Berd rebuild: Nox Farlow rims, 32h, orange I9 Torch hubs (rear SS-specific). Going with black Berds on this one. Will post up pics and weights when I get it back!


Latest: Charlie (from Berd) e-mailed me yesterday, letting me know that my wheels were done and shipped out. They should arrive early next week, and I'll post up pics and weights.

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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

waltaz said:


> Latest: Charlie (from Berd) e-mailed me yesterday, letting me know that my wheels were done and shipped out. They should arrive early next week, and I'll post up pics and weights.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


SS is up and running with Berds! Wheelset build is as follows: Nox Farlow 32h, 29mm ID rims; laced to I9 Torch hubs in mango/orange (rear SS-specific); Berd spokes in black. Weight is 1537g, including valve stems and tape (f - 700g; r - 837g). The Berds reduced the weight of my wheelset by 146g.

On my Pivot LES SS, I'm running Ikon 2.35's.


































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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

>The Berds reduced the weight of my wheelset by 146g

What spokes were you running before ? 

The black spokes look really sharp, in the photos they don't stick out as unusual at all which might be a demerit to some people but is certainly my preference.

Let us know how they ride for you.

A lot of lighter XC style builds, I'm thinking of using these on some DH and Enduro wheels. I generally don't have a problem with rims but I often break spokes and have had to up the sizes to 2.0/1.8 so I see a lot of potential advantages if I can have featherweight spokes with 2.0mm strength and some extra compliance as well.


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

Mine are ready to ride, but unfortunately it rained and I'll have to wait a few days.

For anyone ordering these, keep in mind you'll need to retape them.










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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

coke said:


>


That thing looks ready to float away.


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

mikesee said:


> That thing looks ready to float away.


The big 3" XR4 keeps it grounded 

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Preston67 said:


> >The Berds reduced the weight of my wheelset by 146g
> 
> What spokes were you running before ?
> 
> ...


I showed up for practice at an Enduro race last week (didn't do the race). Got a KOM on a green trail (my first and realistically probably my last) & a handful of top 10s on the other blacks, hit 42 mph at one point on a rough rocky section, all on Berds.

Heck when my new wheels with Berds were brand new I lost air and nailed the crap out of a G out with nothing but an insert and a nasty clang. Just trued the rear that lost air after that and have been fine ever since.

I use to carry spare bladed spokes btw in my truck as I broke them fairly often for a while there. So from a durability stand point, Berd's are considerably better than steel.

The only thing that is weird, and I can't even call it a detriment, but every once in a while I'll REALLY feel the rear wheel flex. It's like the loads all hit just right and I'll quite notice it. But ya know, it might be keeping the rear tire in contact with the ground where other wise it might have lost traction at that moment.

PS. I submitted a photo of me jumping through a tree on Berds from that practice for Berd's contest (since closed). The photo itself wasn't the best shot (buddy with a phone). Hoping I win another set of Berd's so I can either build DH wheels or maybe some trick wheels for my wife's bicycle.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Preston67 said:


> >The Berds reduced the weight of my wheelset by 146g
> 
> What spokes were you running before ?
> 
> ...


Sapim Race. I was actually surprised the weight savings wasn't greater, because I saved 226g on the 28h wheelset for my SB100, and I figured that 32h would yield greater savings. But I think the black color adds a slight bit of weight...just my hunch.

The white spokes grew on me when I had the loaner wheelset, and I prefer them on my SB100. I like the distinctive look. But I wanted black for my SS, to match the stealth coloring of the LES frame.

And yep; to your last point, the weight and the compliance, along with the strength, are a great combo.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> I showed up for practice at an Enduro race last week (didn't do the race). Got a KOM on a green trail (my first and realistically probably my last) & a handful of top 10s on the other blacks, hit 42 mph at one point on a rough rocky section, all on Berds.
> 
> Heck when my new wheels with Berds were brand new I lost air and nailed the crap out of a G out with nothing but an insert and a nasty clang. Just trued the rear that lost air after that and have been fine ever since.
> 
> ...


I'll let you know if I notice any flex on my SS; I haven't noticed any on my SB100.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

So we're al bike geeks here right ? Ok good....

Sapim Race are listed at 5.6 g
Berds are 2.5. 

I assume alloy nipples are close to 0.4, but my understanding is Berd uses standard aluminum nipples so we'll ignore that. 

Then yes you shoud have saved ~3g per spoke or ~192g instead of 146g.
The black coloring might add 1g per spoke ? Is that just your thought or have you heard from Berd or elsewhere they might be heavier ? 

What type of spokes were on your 28 spoke Sb100 wheels ?


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Preston67 said:


> So we're al bike geeks here right ? Ok good....
> 
> Sapim Race are listed at 5.6 g
> Berds are 2.5.
> ...


Oh yeah; we are bike geeks, for sure!

OK; correction on my SS...just talked with the guy who built them and he said he used Sapim Lasers, which 4.42g each. So the savings is 1.92g per spoke, and 123g total. I'm not sure where the additional 23g came from, but could be in the taping and valves.

On my SB100, those were Sapim Race, at about 5.67g each, so the savings was 3.17g per spoke, and 177-178g total (28h build). I was surprised that the savings came in at 226g, but I know the tape job was somewhat overdone, and the valves are smaller, so it could be that the additional 48-49g of savings was in the tape and valves.

Of course, the actual weight of the Berds could be slightly less than 2.5g, so could be some savings there. I'll ask the Berd guys, because they are super responsive and helpful.

Hope this helps! And the ride...sublime!

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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Well thank God we got that straightened out !

Really looking forward to building a couple sets of these.


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

I got my first ride with the spokes last night. We did 2 loops on my local 6 mile xc trail

I'm very familiar with the bike and wheels having over 2500 miles on them with cxray spokes.

I'm very familiar with the trail, and strava show's I've done over 400 laps.

Overall I would say they are a really nice change for my rigid bike. It just felt more planted and hopped, slid, and skipped less than normal.

I was surprised how the bike did on rough choppy downhills. Seems like the spokes absorbed a little of the bigger hits and allowed me to relax more than normal.

The spokes didn't do anything weird or abnormal.

Surprisingly I didn't notice much of a difference on the flatter and smoother parts of the trail, but it could be due to running 3" tires and low pressure.

If these prove to be durable, I plan to run them on all my rigid and hard tail bikes going forward.










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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks for the report although I don't think I'd be able to tell anything about wheel or spoke compliance if I was running low pressure 3" tires !


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

Preston67 said:


> Thanks for the report although I don't think I'd be able to tell anything about wheel or spoke compliance if I was running low pressure 3" tires !


Small changes are more noticeable when you have no suspension.

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I'm on a 150/ 160 travel bike and it feels so notably calm on Berds through the chatter and even when I lay hard into the pedals that it feels like I'm going slow. That high frequency trail buzz you feel when you are going pretty fast on a consistently rough trail, is all but neutralized on Berds.
I'm 95% certain I am not going slower but don't Strava enough to have accurate records. 
Anyone else timed themselves pre & post Berd to try and ascertain any statistical differences in overall speed?

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I love my Berd spokes. 100% reliable, light, killer ride, etc.
Would definitely do again. 

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## Bnystrom (Apr 28, 2007)

coke said:


> Small changes are more noticeable when you have no suspension.


And a tiny change in air pressure or even a difference in ambient temp could easily create the same feeling, if there even is one. Nothing personal, but this sounds like classic "placebo effect" to me.


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## Bnystrom (Apr 28, 2007)

Jim Langley, who is someone I respect as an impartial technical editor for decades, is currently testing Berd spokes. It will be interesting to see what he has to say about them.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Bnystrom said:


> And a tiny change in air pressure or even a difference in ambient temp could easily create the same feeling, if there even is one. Nothing personal, but this sounds like classic "placebo effect" to me.


Sounds like you've been watching a lot of Alex Jones, to me.


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## Bnystrom (Apr 28, 2007)

First off, I've never watched Alex Jones and never will. Regardless, what possible connection can you see between my comment and a conspiracy theorist? I simply stated a couple of obvious facts that anyone who knows anything about wheels and tires would understand.

Perhaps I could have been more specific, say for example a 1-2 psi change in the "3" tires and low pressure" that coke said he was running could explain what he says he felt. As for ambient temperature, it affects the stiffness of the rubber in the tires, though it would take a substantial change (tens of degrees) to make a noticeable difference. 

Is that clear enough?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Bnystrom said:


> First off, I've never watched Alex Jones and never will. Regardless, what possible connection can you see between my comment and a conspiracy theorist? I simply stated a couple of obvious facts that anyone who knows anything about wheels and tires would understand.


I don't/can't watch him either.

The way you came across was as someone for whom no amount of proof could ever be enough.

The person whom you were questioning has been riding a long time, and the more of his posts you read the more you 'get' that he's in tune with his gear and able to parse small changes.

I'm that guy too -- I've been riding for 45 years continuously, and I enjoy paying attention to the small things that manifest in/on any given ride of any given bike.

In general you're not wrong: small differences can sometimes be attributable to placebo. And not everyone can discern the difference.

But suggesting that that's the _only_ possible answer here is both offensive and dismissive.

Think about it.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

If your talking about the additional compliance in Berd spokes I assure you that it is not placebo effect. It's actually very obvious and noticable. 
It would be about the same difference in trail chatter between 20psi vs. 35psi.

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## Bnystrom (Apr 28, 2007)

I've also been riding since the mid-70s, worked in the bike biz, raced on the road, built a lot of wheels and all that good stuff. I'm very much in tune with my equipment and I'm frequently amazed by the things riders _don't_ notice, like extremely high/low tire pressure, slipping seatposts, poor/noisy shifting, loose rattling parts, etc. However, I'm also keenly aware that I'm as vulnerable to the siren call of the placebo effect as anyone, and I'm careful to evaluate my own perception from that perspective. Does what I think I feel actually make sense? Is there another possible explanation?

I'm not being dismissive or insulting, I'm just pointing out that we're all susceptible to wishful thinking and absent actual measured data, we need to be aware of that.


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## Bnystrom (Apr 28, 2007)

Sorry, but I'm not buying that until I see some hard numbers. Frankly, it simply doesn't make any sense and basically defies the laws of physics. I can believe that Berd spokes can reduce high-frequency vibration compared to steel spokes, but that's not something you'll _feel _on a mountain bike. It will like change the _sound_ of the wheels, which can change your _perception_ of the ride, even if it doesn't change compliance in any measurable way.

As for your 20 vs. 35 psi claim, really? Be serious; nothing you can change with spokes - short of leaving them loose - can ever have that much of an effect. But, I suspect you know that. At least you should if you've ever built a wheel.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Bnystrom said:


> Does what I think I feel actually make sense? Is there another possible explanation?
> 
> I'm not being dismissive or insulting, I'm just pointing out that we're all susceptible to wishful thinking and absent actual measured data, we need to be aware of that.


You may not *intend* to be dismissive or insulting, but that's not always how what you're saying is being perceived.

Case in point: It seems you're assuming that those of us whom have noticed (and continue to notice and appreciate) the compliant feel of a Berd spoked wheel aren't capable of using a pressure gauge, nor reading a thermometer, nor understanding that we've gained a few thousand vert through the course of a ride.

It actually seems as though you are as guilty of your accusations as anyone. To wit: You've made some assumptions and -- without a shred of evidence -- have concluded that they're true.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Bnystrom said:


> Sorry, but I'm not buying that until I see some hard numbers. Frankly, it simply doesn't make any sense and basically defies the laws of physics. I can believe that Berd spokes can reduce high-frequency vibration compared to steel spokes, but that's not something you'll _feel _on a mountain bike. It will like change the _sound_ of the wheels, which can change your _perception_ of the ride, even if it doesn't change compliance in any measurable way.
> 
> As for your 20 vs. 35 psi claim, really? Be serious; nothing you can change with spokes - short of leaving them loose - can ever have that much of an effect. But, I suspect you know that. At least you should if you've ever built a wheel.


what are you smokin ?
a cyclist who puts in real miles can feel just about every component change on the bike. berds can be felt. carbon hoops vs alum can be felt. thick grease vs thin grease can be felt. frickin different chain lube can be felt. a bike is a tuned vibrating instrument and ... vibrations are picked up by hands, feet, and arse


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## coke (Jun 7, 2008)

Bnystrom said:


> And a tiny change in air pressure or even a difference in ambient temp could easily create the same feeling, if there even is one. Nothing personal, but this sounds like classic "placebo effect" to me.


Some additional information:

For the initial test conditions, I was on a trail I've lapped around 450 times and on a bike I've ridden over 2500 miles.

I've been using the same pump and gauge since 2015.

I check and adjust my air pressure prior to every ride, typically within 10 minutes of riding.

I tune my bike tire pressures to 1/2 a pound.

I have a spreadsheet with all my bikes and various tire combos listing the tire pressures I've found after testing.

3" xr4 front = 13psi. 3" xr3 rear = 15psi

I have an engineering degree and am very skeptical and analytical by nature. If I don't like a bike component, I have no issue sharing my opinion.

I have around 300 miles on the spokes now, and my opinion and thoughts about them I mentioned earlier haven't changed.



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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

127.0.0.1 said:


> carbon hoops vs alum can be felt.


Not to hijack, you can PM if you like. Is this really noticeable? Do you find aluminum more comfortable and which do you ride?

Thanks


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## Bnystrom (Apr 28, 2007)

There's a big difference between _perceiving _ something is different and it having an actual effect on a bike's performance.

If we're going to be completely honest, we can't be sure what we're feeling _if we know that something has changed before we ride._ When we know, we're going to be looking for that change and more than likely, we'll find it, whether it actually exists or not. Don't get me wrong, I agree that significant changes _can _be felt, but I suspect that we all think that we're better at feeling them than we are. This has been shown over and over again with engineers and team mechanics who work with _professional riders. _The riders frequently find the things they _expect _to find, even if nothing has changed.

This is a flaw in _all_ human beings, we just suck at some things.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

I agree that the ride on Berd spokes is noticeably different, on both suspension and rigid bikes. I liken it to riding on very thin carpet... nothing too dramatic/earth shattering- just immediately apparent.

My Berd wheel set spends the most time on a 120/100mm Scott Spark FS 29er (2.4 front/2.25 rear tires) that gets run through the ringer on rocks, technical single track and urban assault rides.

I've also ridden the wheel set on 3 other rigid bikes (Soma Wolverine steel fork & frame gravel/CX and two single speed 29er's with ENVE carbon forks).

I typically run the single speeds with 3" front tires @~15 psi or less which is a more cushy ride than the Berd front wheel (with obviously less responsive handling than a 2.4" tire at ~17-18 psi).

I'm not sure how much data/evidence will be sufficient for you to give them a try but figured I'd throw in .02 or more.

Bnystrom: All the time you are wasting here debating / beating a dead horse into liquid form could be spent riding on _them_ or *whatever you choose* LOL


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## Bnystrom (Apr 28, 2007)

OK, I agree with you about perception. However, what I'm doing is simply pointing out to others who may read this that there are alternative explanations, particularly if tests are not conducted under controlled conditions. Nothing was specified, so are _you _ are assuming that the conditions _were_ identical? How is that any less biased than me pointing out that they may not have been?

Whenever you're dealing with human perception, there is _always _ bias, for a variety of reasons. We always want our new toy to meet or exceed our expectations. Of course we want our experiments to produce the results we seek. We certainly hope that money we've invested was well-spent. In other words, we have a lot of incentives to find what we want and basically none to admit that we couldn't tell a difference or that we were incorrect. Again, I'm no different in that regard (I hate to be disappointed, too), though maybe I'm more analytical than some others and I definitely tend to look at claims with a jaundiced eye, until I see real evidence.

As the saying goes, "One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions". Would you disagree with that?


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## Bnystrom (Apr 28, 2007)

Fair enough, though I wonder what it is that you're actually perceiving. At least you're making reasonable claims.

And yeah, I'd much rather be riding, but that's not an option at the moment.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I've been interested in trying the Berds for some time - recently purchased a new lightweight DH frame, excited to have a nimbler DH bike than the tanks I've been riding. Bought some new DT Swiss rims and hubs and they're sitting in a box ready to ship. Although the first thought of some is these spokes might not be the best choice for a DH wheel, if anything the weight savings will be much more significant than a XC wheel as I would usually run straight gauge 2.0 spokes. And if there is a compliance effect so much the better. 

I filled out the form on Berd's website and was about to click on buy like I've been planning on for months, but I stopped and just kept looking at that number - $700 including shipping (64 spokes, black)

And I just can't quite bring myself to to click it - the box is sitting in my way every day, I need to make a decision and get these wheels built. 

Not looking for any input, just thinking out loud. As a confessed equipment geek, where do I draw the line ?


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

@Bnystrom, is this really the hill you want to die on ?

From other reviewer on BERD

There is a noticeable difference in the way the Berd wheels ride compared to a traditional wheelset with metal spokes. While it would be easy to dismiss Atomik's claims of vibration damping as marketing hoopla, in this case, there's something to it. The Berd wheels are noticeably smoother when it comes to ride quality. I never experienced the sensation of getting kicked around in rough sections of trail as many overly stiff wheelsets do. Compared to the recently reviewed Bontrager Kovee XXX wheels, the Atomiks offer slightly more forgiveness/compliance but also weigh in a little bit heavier, and the acceleration doesn't feel quite as snappy, although it's still very quick

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-atomik-berd-xc-wide-wheels.html


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Bnystrom said:


> OK


Can't let it go, eh?

You've assumed that my (and others) observations weren't conducted under controlled conditions. Why? Have you read the whole thread?

Seems like not.

I took an existing wheelset that I'd ridden on the same bike, same conditions, same trails, same rider, same tires, and same pressures measured using the same gauge, and I *only* changed the spokes. Nothing but spokes, then I reassembled everything and went and rode.

And I immediately noticed a substantial difference in ride feel.

Why do you have such a hard time accepting that?

Be skeptical, sure. Ask more questions, sure. Introduce other plausible theories, sure.

But to make a blanket assertion that we're all suckling from the placebo tree is offensive, dismissive.

It completely misses the controls that have been put in place. It misses the deductive process.

It's sort of like reading a headline and assuming that you know the whole story in granular detail.

Newsflash: You don't. But the info is still out there for you to consume, and if you did that you might change your mind.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Bnystrom said:


> Sorry, but I'm not buying that until I see some hard numbers. Frankly, it simply doesn't make any sense and basically defies the laws of physics. I can believe that Berd spokes can reduce high-frequency vibration compared to steel spokes, but that's not something you'll _feel _on a mountain bike. It will like change the _sound_ of the wheels, which can change your _perception_ of the ride, even if it doesn't change compliance in any measurable way.
> 
> As for your 20 vs. 35 psi claim, really? Be serious; nothing you can change with spokes - short of leaving them loose - can ever have that much of an effect. But, I suspect you know that. At least you should if you've ever built a wheel.


That was hyperbole on my part, but frankly I get the impression you struggle to feel changes so I wanted to give you a very obvious difference that you would acknowledge anyone could feel.

You know how a rear tire at say 28 psi has a real chattery high frequency feel, particularly when you are going very fast? Like a high frequency buzz? And then on the same set up and trail you drop the pressure to 20 psi and 90% of that high frequency trail buzz (not the bumps, but the buzz) goes away. That is what Berd's feel like, and it's obvious pretty much right away. I ride an Enduro bike for everything and the fact that I have lots of suspension has not removed my ability to feel these things at all.

They also have a certain amount of give when you start pedaling that makes them feel, not as fast. When you stand on the pedals they feel a bit soft. However numbers from people that time this sort of stuff show Berd's to be faster, and I've personally never been faster in all regards, particularly when on the power. My opinion is that much like the give in Onyx hubs (a sensation I pointed out 3 strokes in to my first ride, never having heard of them before that day), you get it all back. It's sort of like standing on a spring that pushes back at ya when you step off of it.

The difference between standard spokes and Berd's is significant and they are certainly easier to compare/ contrast differences than say different tires (even in the same performance category) are noticeable.

I don't ride HTs or Plus bikes so I can't speak to those experiences.


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## adurant (May 31, 2019)

Preston67 said:


> I've been interested in trying the Berds for some time - recently purchased a new lightweight DH frame, excited to have a nimbler DH bike than the tanks I've been riding. Bought some new DT Swiss rims and hubs and they're sitting in a box ready to ship. Although the first thought of some is these spokes might not be the best choice for a DH wheel, if anything the weight savings will be much more significant than a XC wheel as I would usually run straight gauge 2.0 spokes. And if there is a compliance effect so much the better.
> 
> I filled out the form on Berd's website and was about to click on buy like I've been planning on for months, but I stopped and just kept looking at that number - $700 including shipping (64 spokes, black)
> 
> ...


I'm now building up my second wheelset with berd spokes (first set went on my sb100 the second is going on my sb150). I've definitely noticed the reduction in vibration/chatter hence why I'm putting them on the long travel bike too.

Everyone is talking about the trail feel but also don't forget the weight savings. Considering your saving almost 200g and its rotational (although not as far out as the rim so not quiet as important), its a pretty decent value in terms of grams saved per dollar, vs something like xt>xtr.

Finally I would like to say that Berd's customer service has been absolutely outstanding, probably the best I've ever dealt with. Any questions I've had have been answered promptly and thoroughly. In addition when I've had issues caused by factors outside of Berd's control they have gone out of their way to help me out even if the issue wasn't caused by them. For example I had one set of berds built with chinese carbon rims, rear rim broke (not at all berd's fault) they offered me a really great price to rebuild it. Not to bore anyone with too many details but I've had two other instances were I had issues with my wheels (both not Berd's fault) and they helped me out.

Long story short between the compliant feel, the light weight, and the excellent customer service, I strongly recommend berd spokes, and I'll personally be using them for any wheel builds in the future.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Preston67 said:


> I've been interested in trying the Berds for some time - recently purchased a new lightweight DH frame, excited to have a nimbler DH bike than the tanks I've been riding. Bought some new DT Swiss rims and hubs and they're sitting in a box ready to ship. Although the first thought of some is these spokes might not be the best choice for a DH wheel, if anything the weight savings will be much more significant than a XC wheel as I would usually run straight gauge 2.0 spokes. And if there is a compliance effect so much the better.
> 
> I filled out the form on Berd's website and was about to click on buy like I've been planning on for months, but I stopped and just kept looking at that number - $700 including shipping (64 spokes, black)
> 
> ...


The line can be drawn at the wallet, wife/significant other, higher priorities, ...

In the grand scheme of things, a Berd build is not as pricey as some of the crazy high-end wheel builds.

Depending on what you ride and how much air you are comfortable with, I'd be more concerned about the hoops selected more than the spokes.

My wheel set has been in action for ~15 months now and has been awesome for XC/Mountain riding in the US mid-Atlantic region. I built them on (what Suns_PSD said are "scary light") Nextie NXT29UL30 offset spoke hole rims and they are good as new except for some rock scratches here and there haha

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Preston67 said:


> I've been interested in trying the Berds for some time - recently purchased a new lightweight DH frame, excited to have a nimbler DH bike than the tanks I've been riding. Bought some new DT Swiss rims and hubs and they're sitting in a box ready to ship. Although the first thought of some is these spokes might not be the best choice for a DH wheel, if anything the weight savings will be much more significant than a XC wheel as I would usually run straight gauge 2.0 spokes. And if there is a compliance effect so much the better.
> 
> I filled out the form on Berd's website and was about to click on buy like I've been planning on for months, but I stopped and just kept looking at that number - $700 including shipping (64 spokes, black)
> 
> ...


I LOVE Berds, but simply would not choose them for this application. Every single Pro DH racer pretty much uses the same Aluminum wheels (EX471s maybe?). I'd simply copy their set up and throw Cushcore in them. They will be compliant and inexpensive and you have a lift to get to the top.

DH Assagias roll so horribly anyways that 250 grams isn't going to matter at all.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

mikesee said:


> Sounds like you've been watching a lot of Alex Jones, to me.


Alex Jones is the greatest political Commentator of our lifetime! Just kidding. He is an idiot that just so happens to live near me. My neighbor is a Sherriff has been called to his house several times, 1x he was called out multiple times in one day to deal with his coked up and drunk ass and his baby momma, or so I'm told.

To top it off I have another neighbor that rents an office space for his music business and the address use to be Alex Jones', and lots of crazies come by to get the 'scoop'.

Freakin' nut bags.


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## Bnystrom (Apr 28, 2007)

I never disputed the claims that they damp vibration and in fact, I've said that they should, given my experience with the same material Berd uses. However, damping high-frequency vibration is _not_ the same as somehow making the wheel more _compliant_, which implies rim flex that you won't get in a properly tensioned wheel.

Try this: take a steel-spoked wheel and pluck a spoke. You get a nice metallic ring that you can hear, that decays fairly slowly, correct? Take a wheel with Berd spokes and do the same. You'll hear a somewhat deeper note, and it probably decays faster, right? That's _all _they do.

So, you can _hear_ the sounds from the spokes - and the difference - but you can't _feel_ them, can you?

The point here is that the spokes are damping high-frequency vibration that will make it to your ears if there's not too much ambient noise, but the likelihood of it making it to your body though the tires, suspension, frame, saddle, grips, cranks, pedals and shoes is basically nil.

Does Berd provide any vibration characteristics measured at the saddle, handlebar or pedals? _That's_ where meaningful measurement would be made, not just from plucked spokes.

As for the perceived smoothness, I've experienced something similar with some carbon fiber road wheels wheels I built a few years ago. The rims were stiff as hell, but they had foam cores that really damped vibration. Although they were a lot stiffer than the box-section rims on my other wheels, they were dead quiet and that made them _seem_ smoother, even though they offered essentially no compliance by comparison. Note also that on a road bike, you have higher pressure tires that actually do transmit high-frequency road buzz that you _can_ feel through the rigid frame and fork. As soon as I hit something significant in the road, the heavy jolt made it clear that there was no compliance on offer.

On an MTB, you have _lots_ of compliance in the tires, plus whatever suspension the bike has. Wheels have _very little compliance_, on the order of less than 1mm in most cases. Do you _really _think you can tell the difference between a wheel that gives you 1mm of compliance vs. one that gives you 1.5mm, when you have tires that provide 50-70mm, plus whatever your suspension adds? That on a surface that may vary from smooth rock to bouncy roots to soft mud in a matter of a few feet? That simply doesn't make any sense. What you're perceiving with Berd spoke is not added _compliance_; that's physically impossible.

Look, if you like wheels with Berd spokes and you're happy with them, that's terrific and in the end, it's probably all that matters.


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## Comrade Sukhov (Aug 8, 2016)

Hey, dude! If many guys told (you), that they FEEL THE DIFFERENCE between riding the traditional wheels and the Berds... then, probably - THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.  
And you have to go for your own practical experience - just to check out and know, if it is so or not... only then you could try to convince others in some or another conclusions. 
Not BEFORE... not INSTEAD OF... only AFTER! :thumbsup:


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Bnystrom, you clearly are not interested in Berd spokes. You should move on as your not doing well at convincing guys that have ridden them (or wheel reviewers apparently) and you've made up your mind.

PS. I don't hear anything as I play loud music in my ears while I ride.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Bnystrom said:


> I never disputed the claims that they damp vibration and in fact, I've said that they should, given my experience with the same material Berd uses. However, damping high-frequency vibration is _not_ the same as somehow making the wheel more _compliant_, which implies rim flex that you won't get in a properly tensioned wheel.
> 
> Try this: take a steel-spoked wheel and pluck a spoke...
> 
> ...


Like dayummm- You need therapy with all the hyper-over-analysis you are bringing.l!

Really small stuff is super scary when viewed with an electron microscope. Take a deep breath and seek a higher level view of things!

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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I'd be interested to see if there's any difference in measured torsional stiffness. Force required for deflection of the rim torsionally relative to the hub. The only useful number would be with the wheel build, to see how all the interfaces function, vs. the theoretical.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Suns_PSD said:


> I LOVE Berds, but simply would not choose them for this application. Every single Pro DH racer pretty much uses the same Aluminum wheels (EX471s maybe?). I'd simply copy their set up and throw Cushcore in them. They will be compliant and inexpensive and you have a lift to get to the top.
> 
> DH Assagias roll so horribly anyways that 250 grams isn't going to matter at all.


This new DH bike (Aurum HSP) is so light and pedals so well that I threw a dropper post and 11 spd on it and was going to use it as a Spring bike (we have a fair bit of winch & plummet double black trails in the local area) so I thought I'd just take it that extra step. The Aurum and my trail bike are both 110/148 boost so with just a cap change I can swap wheels and so I was also envisioning these as some super Enduro wheels and as an experiment before I took a chance on Berd's for my trail wheels.

But that's good advice, its just not worth it for this application. I'll try them on my trail wheels. I love my trail wheels so I'm a little shy to mess with them, but the one problem I do have is breaking spokes 2-3 times a season, usually at the worst time, and I never seem to have the correct spare laying around. If I can avoid that problem and save some grams of rotating weight I'm all for it.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Preston67 said:


> This new DH bike (Aurum HSP) is so light and pedals so well that I threw a dropper post and 11 spd on it and was going to use it as a Spring bike (we have a fair bit of winch & plummet double black trails in the local area) so I thought I'd just take it that extra step. The Aurum and my trail bike are both 110/148 boost so with just a cap change I can swap wheels and so I was also envisioning these as some super Enduro wheels and as an experiment before I took a chance on Berd's for my trail wheels.
> 
> But that's good advice, its just not worth it for this application. I'll try them on my trail wheels. I love my trail wheels so I'm a little shy to mess with them, but the one problem I do have is breaking spokes 2-3 times a season, usually at the worst time, and I never seem to have the correct spare laying around. If I can avoid that problem and save some grams of rotating weight I'm all for it.


Have you pedaled the Aurum yet? I just took a peak at it and even with a great weight and killer high pivot rear suspension design it's hard to imagine it could pedal well just because I suspect (didn't verify) that the rear suspension kinematics have very low Anti-Squat intentionally and that the STA is slack and with that much sag will get a lot slacker quickly. I mean it's a dedicated DH bike, not a Super Enduro rig. It was never meant to be pedaled and absolute weight is just 1 aspect of how a bike pedals.

I have kicked around the idea of building a Super Foxy (I have a Foxy 29 now and it pedals and weighs like it's a 100mm travel bike, it's insane how it pedals!) with my lightweight Enduro built and using a 180mm travel DC fork such as the Bartlett or even the Boxxer. I could build a bike that pedaled really well, that weighed 31#s easily, that was capable of anything.

But then reality hits and I'd by taking my 7 year old girl on XC trails on a DC bike and I'd feel a little silly, not to mention getting clobbered by guys on trail bikes! Ha.

Overkill for my terrain and skill level generally, even though we have pockets of very rough and steep terrain locally.


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## Ruckus99ss (Aug 31, 2014)

I have xc25 wheelset on my ss. Love them


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Jayem said:


> The only useful number would be with the _ride quality._


Just my $.02...


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I still LOVE these spokes and frankly the entire wheelset. They have required no maintenance, ride great, and the spokes themselves are nearly new looking still.


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> I still LOVE these spokes and frankly the entire wheelset. They have required no maintenance, ride great, and the spokes themselves are nearly new looking still.


Same here, and I have them on two bikes now - my SB100, and my SS.

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## sxotty (Nov 4, 2005)

So do these rip the side of your hub off if you catch a spoke then? I would rather break a spoke than a hub personally. I once broke a hub in a mavic front wheel when I caught the spoke in a log. It was a real bummer, though mavic covered it under warranty.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

sxotty said:


> So do these rip the side of your hub off if you catch a spoke then? I would rather break a spoke than a hub personally. I once broke a hub in a mavic front wheel when I caught the spoke in a log. It was a real bummer, though mavic covered it under warranty.


This is a rare enough circumstance that I don't think it will be tested or ever be an issue. Besides, you broke your hub with a non Berd spoke!
Berd spokes are awesome and I'll never build a wheel set without them again. But then, I don't build that many sets of wheels.

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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Say you want to build with these at home.

What do you use to measure spoke tension? Does Berd supply you with any information regarding using common spoke tension meters? Some sort of conversion matrix, a la the one that comes with a TM-1?

I.e., a 15 on a TM-1 = 100kgf on Berd spokes?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Le Duke said:


> Say you want to build with these at home.
> 
> What do you use to measure spoke tension? Does Berd supply you with any information regarding using common spoke tension meters? Some sort of conversion matrix, a la the one that comes with a TM-1?
> 
> I.e., a 15 on a TM-1 = 100kgf on Berd spokes?


1.1mm of deflection is the target on the DT Tensio units.

Not sure about the Park. They're so notoriously inaccurate I think I'd default to plucking and listening.


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## MegaStoke (Aug 27, 2018)

Has anybody here really put Berd Spokes through the wringer in a hard hitting enduro context? I’m thinking of building up a set of Onyx Vesper, Crank Bros Synthesis E Carbon, and Berd 29” wheels for trail-enduro-DH usage, but I’m a bit concerned with seemingly guinea pigging the Berd spokes for hard riding. My concerns center mostly around long term durability and maintenance, and adequate stiffness when pushed really hard. It seems like most builds with these spokes are more in the gravel-xc-trail category. 

I want the light weight, and the high frequency vibration damping is appealing, and I apparently hate having money, so what downsides should I be aware of?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I've done 15' jumps, 5' drops and endless rock gardens on my Berds for over a year. Much more reliable than standard spokes, which I use to break often. 
Having a set built up for my wife but primarily for the ride quality improvements in her case. 

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

MegaStoke said:


> Has anybody here really put Berd Spokes through the wringer in a hard hitting enduro context? I'm thinking of building up a set of Onyx Vesper, Crank Bros Synthesis E Carbon, and Berd 29" wheels for trail-enduro-DH usage, but I'm a bit concerned with seemingly guinea pigging the Berd spokes for hard riding. My concerns center mostly around long term durability and maintenance, and adequate stiffness when pushed really hard. It seems like most builds with these spokes are more in the gravel-xc-trail category.
> 
> I want the light weight, and the high frequency vibration damping is appealing, and I apparently hate having money, so what downsides should I be aware of?


I think durability is pretty well established at this point. It comes down to whether you're OK spending the money, and if you are, whether you'll like the feel.

One way to find out is to build one wheel at a time, then ride it and evaluate it.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I wish they’d offer the black option to people who want to build up
their wheels themselves. 


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Le Duke said:


> I wish they'd offer the black option to people who want to build up
> their wheels themselves.


Buy the white ones.

While waiting for them to ship, go get a Sharpie Magnum in black.

There is not a great variance from what you'll get DIY'ing the black to what Berd ships.

In fact, it might be the same.


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

mikesee said:


> Buy the white ones.
> 
> While waiting for them to ship, go get a Sharpie Magnum in black.
> 
> ...


Whatever it is, it's very similar. And even the black spokes need touching up here and there occasionally, there will forever be a white spoke under there. Sharpie works perfectly.


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

really? they are not black material through and through? Just on the surface? You would think they would at least bulk-dye it...


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

EdSawyer said:


> really? they are not black material through and through? Just on the surface? You would think they would at least bulk-dye it...


The material is not black through, but the cord may be dyed through. They still can and do lose dye on the surface and lighten up. It's not a big deal to touch them up and to me they look way better than white spokes would. I wouldn't have purchased them if I hadn't been able to get black.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

EdSawyer said:


> You would think they would at least bulk-dye it...


I experimented with this when white was the only option.

I tried brown, red, and black. Rit Dye.

I ended up with green, gray-green, and gray.

Then I bought a Sharpie Magnum and got black in ~1/2 the time it took to use dye.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Mike, short of buying a DT tension gauge, what do you think is the best option for a guy who builds a wheel or two a year to build a properly tensioned wheel using Berd spokes?


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

^Same question. What deflection could we use with a park gauge? Also wouldn't 27.5 vs 29 have a different deflection? I should preface that question with saying I haven't read any of Berd's literature. 

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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Le Duke said:


> Mike, short of buying a DT tension gauge, what do you think is the best option for a guy who builds a wheel or two a year to build a properly tensioned wheel using Berd spokes?


I think the Park might do more harm than good in the hands of most users, but I also don't know of a tweener option that's worth having.

Borrow/rent one from a quality LBS?

DT used to have a demo/loaner program for shops to try theirs out. No idea if it still exists.


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## toyotachaos (Sep 6, 2009)

Most local shops can order them in black from Berd. I built up a wheelset with Chris King hubs and Derby 30mm internal rims for my Tallboy build. So far they've held up to everything without any issues. I only have around 100 miles on them so far though.


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

Suns_PSD said:


> I've done 15' jumps, 5' drops and endless rock gardens on my Berds for over a year. Much more reliable than standard spokes, which I use to break often.
> Having a set built up for my wife but primarily for the ride quality improvements in her case.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


I have been debating on getting some BERD spokes, but was on the fence for this reason. I do drops and jumps and technical and was wondering how well they hold up under pressure vs. XC etc.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

pedal-man said:


> I have been debating on getting some BERD spokes, but was on the fence for this reason. I do drops and jumps and technical and was wondering how well they hold up under pressure vs. XC etc.


Dead reliable. More reliable than metal spokes imo.

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## FIF (Oct 5, 2018)

I'm not sure if I am looking at this correctly, but I could purchase the spokes for $8 / spoke ($512 for 64 spokes) and build the wheelset myself or pay someone to build the set for me; or I could just mail my rims and hubs to Berd and they would build the set for $600 ($625 for black spokes) including the spokes. Boy, if they only charge about $44 to build a wheel with their spokes that seems like a heck of deal, especially given the wheel building process Mikesee originally posted in this thread when using these spokes.

https://berdspokes.com/products/berd-wheel-rebuilding?variant=20307221971040


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

FIF said:


> I'm not sure if I am looking at this correctly, but I could purchase the spokes for $8 / spoke ($512 for 64 spokes) and build the wheelset myself or pay someone to build the set for me; or I could just mail my rims and hubs to Berd and they would build the set for $600 ($625 for black spokes) including the spokes. Boy, if they only charge about $44 to build a wheel with their spokes that seems like a heck of deal, especially given the wheel building process Mikesee originally posted in this thread when using these spokes.
> 
> https://berdspokes.com/products/berd-wheel-rebuilding?variant=20307221971040


That's correct; I've sent two wheelsets to them to rebuild, without issue. I absolutely love the Berds!

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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

Agreed, it does make for a compelling argument to just send hubs/rims and have them build them. I've done that as well. The shipping cost adds up (probably $60-100/ea way depending on wheels) but still worth it. 

The Berd-spoked wheels I have have held up well so far too.


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## BeerCan (Aug 29, 2006)

I ordered a set of atomik rims with berd spokes and onyx hubs a few months ago. Finally got around to installing tires etc. First ride monday.
Sorry for the coffee grinds.
Onyx hubs, atomik am rims black berd spokes.


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## Fuse6F (Jul 5, 2017)

Never mind!


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

I never heard back from Berd so I'm asking here:
What's better for these spokes, a straight pull hub or J-bend hub?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Lelandjt said:


> I never heard back from Berd so I'm asking here:
> What's better for these spokes, a straight pull hub or J-bend hub?


I'm not sure it matters. Either way is sorta fiddly to lace. You'll wish your fingers/hands were smaller.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

mikesee said:


> I'm not sure it matters. Either way is sorta fiddly to lace. You'll wish your fingers/hands were smaller.


I'm gonna have Berd do the build. I get the impression that initially these stretch more than steel spokes and because of that I don't want to deal with making sure the length is right and multiple tensioning/settling sessions.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Lelandjt said:


> I'm gonna have Berd do the build. I get the impression that initially these stretch more than steel spokes and because of that I don't want to deal with making sure the length is right and multiple tensioning/settling sessions.


Are they for you, or a customer?


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

I have three sets of wheels with those spokes, Two with j-bend and one that has Straight pull. All three seemed to need “Machining” (aka radiusing the hub holes with a Dremel) which is unfortunate because it makes a mess of the hub from a visual and aesthetic standpoint. It’s understandable why it needs to be done, I just wish it was a little more elegantly done. From a functional standpoint either set of hub types seems to work fine in my experience. Part of it depends on your hub choice, some stuff only comes in Straight pull.

The latest set of wheels I got from them came out at 1069 g for the set: BTLOS 25mm ID rims (extra light version) in 27.5 and dt180 exp hubs.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

mikesee said:


> Are they for you, or a customer?


For me. I'll probably get 2 sets of Berd wheels next Spring. The first I'll have them build, the second I'll build myself with the first set there to reference tension.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

EdSawyer said:


> I have three sets of wheels with those spokes, Two with j-bend and one that has Straight pull. All three seemed to need "Machining" (aka radiusing the hub holes with a Dremel) which is unfortunate because it makes a mess of the hub from a visual and aesthetic standpoint. It's understandable why it needs to be done, I just wish it was a little more elegantly done. From a functional standpoint either set of hub types seems to work fine in my experience. Part of it depends on your hub choice, some stuff only comes in Straight pull.
> 
> The latest set of wheels I got from them came out at 1069 g for the set: BTLOS 25mm ID rims (extra light version) in 27.5 and dt180 exp hubs.


Good to know. I build all my light wheels with DT 180, 240, or Carbon Ti SP hubs. I can at least ask Berd if they like the spoke hole shapes on any of those in particular.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Lelandjt said:


> For me. I'll probably get 2 sets of Berd wheels next Spring. The first I'll have them build, the second I'll build myself with the first set there to reference tension.


Good plan.

There are just enough nuances that you're doing yourself a disservice owning them without knowing how to replace a spoke, true, add tension, etc...

All doable, but can be frustrating how long it takes if it's new and you're short on time.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

mikesee said:


> Good plan.
> 
> There are just enough nuances that you're doing yourself a disservice owning them without knowing how to replace a spoke, true, add tension, etc...
> 
> All doable, but can be frustrating how long it takes if it's new and you're short on time.


You bring up an interesting point, having to replace a spoke. I was going to ask for 1 extra spoke in each length my wheels use so I have a replacement on hand. However, in the event that I'm on the road or at a race and break a spoke I assumed it would be no problem to stick a steel spoke in because it would be a quicker job. Then at home I could put a new Berd spoke in.


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

They said they consider the DT180 the best hubs on the market, FWIW.



Lelandjt said:


> Good to know. I build all my light wheels with DT 180, 240, or Carbon Ti SP hubs. I can at least ask Berd if they like the spoke hole shapes on any of those in particular.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

EXP 180 hub wheels built with spline lock rotors end up being heaver than EXP 240 hubs with six bolt rotors using the same rims and spokes. Spline lock rotors are heavy!!


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

tom tom said:


> EXP 180 hub wheels built with spline lock rotors end up being heaver than EXP 240 hubs with six bolt rotors using the same rims and spokes. Spline lock rotors are heavy!!


Interesting - how much of a weight discrepancy are we talking?


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

not in my experience. Though I will agree that there are more lighter 6-bolt rotors than centerlock options. About the lightest 6-bolt 200mm rotor I have found is Ashima, at about 140g. The lightest centerlock 200/203 is the MT900 Shimano, at about 144g



tom tom said:


> EXP 180 hub wheels built with spline lock rotors end up being heaver than EXP 240 hubs with six bolt rotors using the same rims and spokes. Spline lock rotors are heavy!!


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Lelandjt said:


> You bring up an interesting point, having to replace a spoke. I was going to ask for 1 extra spoke in each length my wheels use so I have a replacement on hand. However, in the event that I'm on the road or at a race and break a spoke I assumed it would be no problem to stick a steel spoke in because it would be a quicker job. Then at home I could put a new Berd spoke in.


Yup, it's a waste of time replacing a Berd as a quick repair, it's the oddest part of building with them, it seems like they will never hold tension and then they do. But it takes a few days. If you want full strength to the wheel in a hurry, temporarily putting a steel one in there is the way for sure.


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## Lelandjt (Feb 22, 2008)

EdSawyer said:


> not in my experience. Though I will agree that there are more lighter 6-bolt rotors than centerlock options. About the lightest 6-bolt 200mm rotor I have found is Ashima, at about 140g. The lightest centerlock 200/203 is the MT900 Shimano, at about 144g


In smaller sizes the weight difference is greater. My XC bike's wheels use 160mm Formula R1 rotors with Ti bolts that centerlock can't come close to. The ultimate light setup is those rotors, Ti bolts, and Carbon Ti, Extralite, or Tune hubs. I've had no problems with Carbon Ti SPs.


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

I expect there are lighter rotors than the formula ones, if you go down to 160mm in 6-bolt. The Raven SL comes to mind, also KCNC makes some titanium rotors. And for bolts, might as well go to aluminum there if you really want to save weight. The DT180 hubs are lighter than the tune or carbon ti, also, I believe. Extralite front hubs (hyperboost at least) have issues with berd spokes - to change the hub bearings you have to unlace the spokes/wheel. Not a deal breaker but something to be aware of. I went with DT for that reason.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Mike or others:

How does the lateral deflection of a Berd wheel compare to an equivalent rim/hub wheel built with Revs or like spokes? Has anyone tested this or attempted to quantify it?

I'm hardly a large rider at 143lbs, but I like my bike to feel like it's going to go where I point it.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Le Duke said:


> Mike or others:
> 
> How does the lateral deflection of a Berd wheel compare to an equivalent rim/hub wheel built with Revs or like spokes? Has anyone tested this or attempted to quantify it?
> 
> I'm hardly a large rider at 143lbs, but I like my bike to feel like it's going to go where I point it.


I've got 35 to 40# on you -- not including pack -- depending on season.

I don't like the feel of Rev's -- even in 32h/3x wheelsets. Too much windup/deflection/wonkiness.

So I tend to use SuperComps when building with wider (fatbike) hubs, and Comps when building Boost.

I pretty much always build 32h/3x for myself.

And I can't tell a difference from Berd's to any of the above.


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## MegaStoke (Aug 27, 2018)

Le Duke said:


> Mike or others:
> 
> How does the lateral deflection of a Berd wheel compare to an equivalent rim/hub wheel built with Revs or like spokes? Has anyone tested this or attempted to quantify it?
> 
> I'm hardly a large rider at 143lbs, but I like my bike to feel like it's going to go where I point it.


Lateral rigidity is pretty similar to a butted 2-1.8-2 spoke. I've been absolutely wailing on my CB Synthesis E Carbon, Onyx Vesper, BERD wheelset and have never felt like they tracked weird under any circumstances. I have put ~500 very abusive miles on my set in the past month(Whole Enchilada and rougher), and they're still laser true, and tension hasn't changed one bit.

I will say, if you build them yourself, plan on it being a lengthy and sometimes frustrating process, but now that they're done, I'm beyond stoked on how they ride and how they're holding up so far.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Does the steel insert for SP hubs require any modification of the hub? Wondering for warranty purposes.

Because of delays in shipping the DT Swiss XMC 1200s I'd purchased from R2, I'm now buying and building up a set of Nextie 30mm internal rims, DT 180s and Berds.


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

I do believe they drill for the steel inserts on SP hubs. At least my DT180 builds have been that way.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Le Duke said:


> Does the steel insert for SP hubs require any modification of the hub? Wondering for warranty purposes.
> 
> Because of delays in shipping the DT Swiss XMC 1200s I'd purchased from R2, I'm now buying and building up a set of Nextie 30mm internal rims, DT 180s and Berds.


That'll be a sick set of wheels. Be sure and report back.

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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

side note: DT is really stepping up to help folks with the 180 EXP hubs that have had issues - sending out new parts asap, very cool on their part. 

My set of wheels with DT180 exp, Berds, and BTLOS 25mm ID rims came in at 1070g for the set.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

EdSawyer said:


> side note: DT is really stepping up to help folks with the 180 EXP hubs that have had issues - sending out new parts asap, very cool on their part.
> 
> My set of wheels with DT180 exp, Berds, and BTLOS 25mm ID rims came in at 1070g for the set.


What do they send out, exactly?


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

Looks like it will be new drivers and the floating ratchet pieces.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Blah. Just saw the prices of the XD EXP driver. R2 only has the 180 in Microspline right now. 

Thinking about buying a 240 rear w/XD instead. That said, I'm not super obsessive compulsive but mismatched hubs might bother me.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Le Duke said:


> Blah. Just saw the prices of the XD EXP driver. R2 only has the 180 in Microspline right now.
> 
> Thinking about buying a 240 rear w/XD instead. That said, I'm not super obsessive compulsive but mismatched hubs might bother me.


There are stainless and gucci versions of the XD's. I have piles of both on the shelf. I'd consider trading you for the MS, if you cover all shipping.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

mikesee said:


> There are stainless and gucci versions of the XD's. I have piles of both on the shelf. I'd consider trading you for the MS, if you cover all shipping.


Awesome. I'll definitely be sending you an email when I get my hubs in. Thanks!


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

EdSawyer said:


> side note: DT is really stepping up to help folks with the 180 EXP hubs that have had issues - sending out new parts asap, very cool on their part.
> 
> My set of wheels with DT180 exp, Berds, and BTLOS 25mm ID rims came in at 1070g for the set.


That's a sick weight for a quality XC race wheel. Congrats!


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

Crypto has been nice to me and wanted another set of rims. So I asked Berd if they could build me something that would survive riding Thrillium in Washington every day. Crazy fast, rocks and roots everywhere and big jumps. It's pretty much murder on wheels. I run 2.4" tires and assumed they would do a build with beefier rims than their TR27 trail wheels. They told me to go ahead and smash away on the TR27's. I requested they be built up with DT Swiss 240's and I suppose the pictures tell the whole story. Though I won't have a riding impression until Friday. They seemed really confident they would survive the abuse just fine, and they are backed with a warranty. 1180g taped with stems.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

I personally couldn't fathom riding Thrillium with a 28 spoke wheel. At least not in 29'r. Let us know how they ride. 

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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

WHALENARD said:


> I personally couldn't fathom riding Thrillium with a 28 spoke wheel. At least not in 29'r. Let us know how they ride.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


I'm not going to lie, when I took them out of the package and held them. I checked that they didn't send me some XC rims. But they assured me I would be fine. I just told them what I rode and what I wanted. That said, my other set of rims are Reserve 30's which are 28 spoke and pretty bombproof. Though a whole helluva lot heavier. Only one way to find out though. Fingers crossed. I self-shuttle Thrillium the majority of the time, I'm actually curious to see if there is any perceived effort difference on the climb more than anything at the moment.


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## zerodish (Jun 17, 2006)

You may as well go ahead and make siamese spokes. These were invented by Harlen Meyer who founded HiE. Just make it twice as long and piut on two nipples. This may break flanges so tests will need to be done. In the meantime you could thread the the spoke into one hole then cross to the next hole then back to the rim. Tbis will give eht added advantage of both ends of the spoke exiting from the outer portion of the flange making the wheel stronger.


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## 127.0.0.1 (Nov 19, 2013)

siamese dyneema spokes ...

now we're talking _light_ !


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

127.0.0.1 said:


> siamese dyneema spokes ...
> 
> now we're talking _light_ !


Don't go making this thread into a diy spoke thing. That happened before and berd threatened legal action. We need to just get along.


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## bryancola (Jun 10, 2021)

Are you guys using a 2 lace or 3 lace pattern?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

bryancola said:


> Are you guys using a 2 lace or 3 lace pattern?


Yes.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Just wanted to point out if people hadn't noticed that Berd is now selling black spokes to customers. Previously this was a BTO-option only, good move by them.

Also if you're building yourself (which I wouldn't recommend but go right ahead), it's much, much easier to tension the spokes through the spoke holes with a park hex wrench than with a spoke wrench and their tiny spoke blade holder. You need to do a lot of tensioning. A Park tensionometer is a must-have whether you BTO or not.

6 months of racing in, have re-tensioned once and also put them back in round (my mistake for over-tensioning), no issues with the Carbonfan 30.5s or the spokes. So quiet, hard to describe.


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## suprteck (Sep 27, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> Just wanted to point out if people hadn't noticed that Berd is now selling black spokes to customers. Previously this was a BTO-option only, good move by them.
> 
> Also if you're building yourself (which I wouldn't recommend but go right ahead), it's much, much easier to tension the spokes through the spoke holes with a park hex wrench than with a spoke wrench and their tiny spoke blade holder. You need to do a lot of tensioning. A Park tensionometer is a must-have whether you BTO or not.
> 
> ...


what are you tensioning the berd spokes to? I have a park gauge and mines are reading around 3 on the gauge


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

suprteck said:


> what are you tensioning the berd spokes to? I have a park gauge and mines are reading around 3 on the gauge


Perhaps we have different gauges. With a Park TM-1 I am tensioning to 15, with anything less than 12 being too loose.

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## suprteck (Sep 27, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> Perhaps we have different gauges. With a Park TM-1 I am tensioning to 15, with anything less than 12 being too loose.
> 
> I have the same tool. I just remeasured on my front it's 15 on the non drive side and 8 on the drive side. Rear it's 14 on drive side and 8 on non drive side. My rims are asymmetric. I will give Berd a call to see what's the correct reading. I found some of the spokes to be looser than the others for the same side.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Berd spokes won’t break but they will stretch. With spokes not up to tension you may be just riding along fine, but you’ll feel them give way under aggressive moves and that’s not a good feeling. 

Berd talks about a stretching period over the first couple of days, but that might continue more slowly over the first couple months. Or maybe the nipples loosen. Either way it’s no more maintenance than steel spokes, but it’s harder to see the problem without a tensionometer.


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## suprteck (Sep 27, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> Berd spokes won't break but they will stretch. With spokes not up to tension you may be just riding along fine, but you'll feel them give way under aggressive moves and that's not a good feeling.
> 
> Berd talks about a stretching period over the first couple of days, but that might continue more slowly over the first couple months. Or maybe the nipples loosen. Either way it's no more maintenance than steel spokes, but it's harder to see the problem without a tensionometer.


I have no problem trueing a wheel. I just need to get a tool to hold the spoke from twisting as my bladed spoke tool doesn't work. I guess I will have to recheck the spokes and retension them as a couple are pretty loose compared to the rest. Other than that I love the way my light bicycle recons feels now. Before I had them built with sapim cx rays and the wheels made my bike very harsh. I could feel lots a vibration and chatter compared to my enve am wheels. Now no more harsh feeling and I loss 400g 
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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

chomxxo said:


> Berd spokes won't break but they will stretch. With spokes not up to tension you may be just riding along fine, but you'll feel them give way under aggressive moves and that's not a good feeling.
> 
> Berd talks about a stretching period over the first couple of days, but that might continue more slowly over the first couple months. Or maybe the nipples loosen. Either way it's no more maintenance than steel spokes, but it's harder to see the problem without a tensionometer.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah I feel the sensation all the time and have mentioned it in Berd threads before. I feel like when my back tire hooks up well and I'm able to put a ton of torque through it I can feel it like flex out and then just pop back. 
It doesn't really affect my riding or safety or anyting. My rear Berd wheel iis at Berd right now getting rebuilt with a new Hub causr I had a hub blowout. And I told him to check specifically what the spoke tension is currently. The wheel has two years of hard use.

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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

a hacksaw and any old 1ish mm piece of metal will make you a tool to hold the spokes in about a minute.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

bryancola said:


> Are you guys using a 2 lace or 3 lace pattern?


I did 2x3 on my build (with offset Nextie carbon hoops) based on this thread from long ago and the statement:

_2x3 builds put "the ends of the drive side spokes close to the rim, resulting in a higher "bracing angle" and thus helping to reduce the tension imbalance caused by the dish. It doesn't make a really big difference, but every bit helps, and the bigger the flange is, the more difference it makes. Combined with an offset drilled rim (which WILL get your spokes closer to equal length) you could even get a wheel that had very near equal tension on the two sides"._

Not that it makes a ton of difference either way in overall build quality and durability compared to my other builds. I figured for all the novelty of building them up (back when very few were out in the wild) why not! They've been going strong for more than 2 1/2 years. Only have had to tighten one nipple so far due to a flying rock kicked up by a rider in front of me hitting the outer covering which caused a bit of a change in spoke tension.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I did 2-cross with 24h front, 28h rear. One of the unspoken benefits of wider carbon rims (30mm+) is that they don't flex very much. Almost no truing is required and you can reduce spoke count--my build is actually lighter than the brand-new Syncros Silverton 30mm wheelset, and less than half the cost (not counting my labor).


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## MegaStoke (Aug 27, 2018)

Just wanted to check in, I’ve been riding the absolute piss out of my Onyx Vesper, Crank Bros Synthesis Carbon E Rims, and Berd wheelset for just about a year now and they’ve been flawless. I’ve raced enduro and downhill, have hundreds of miles of rocky singletrack bikepacking on them, and even hucked some pretty big cliffs at the Rampage site, and they’re still as true and tension balanced as day one. They are a bit creaky when I pull a trials move, but they’re very quiet in normal riding.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

My 180/Nextie 30mm/Berd wheels will be here tomorrow. I'll post some pictures/review when I get a couple rides in on them.

Two week turnaround on them, FWIW.


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

Should probably update now that I have 150 miles or so on mine. The initial nervous caution has faded to fully sending any rock garden in sight. No issues at all with the TR27's at Thrillium/Cold Creek. I'm runing Kenda Hellkats in the AEC casing up front, and Nevegal2 in EMC in the rear (similar to AEC). I've settled on 25/27 for pressure at Thrillium and 23/25 everywhere else at a riding weight of 205 (with pack etc). I think any rim damage is more going to be from tire/casing choices than any lack of strength in the rim or spokes themselves. The only thing that did suck is I had them built with DT Swiss 240's that were part of the recalled batch and they failed. Fortunately I had just completed the climb up and it was all downhill from there. Swapped a freehub off a working set and awaiting the new parts now. Which, on another tangent, I'm now interested in the Ochain. The rear end definitely felt noticeably better and I actually set some PR's that run on the way down without being able to pedal. I'm in Issaqua today and will try and get to Tiger Mountain to ride Predator if I can bail on some meetings. Love the compliant feel.

That said, if you love your bike now, no reason to go drop the money. Don't think any of us are getting paid to do this. But if you are shopping a new set of wheels, I would definitely just get a set built with Berds. I've got two sets of wheels built up with them now.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

1315g now; 1305g after going from
MS to XD tomorrow.

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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Nice, I envy the black spokes. White stays clean better than I'd expected, but you'd be the envy on the trails down here in big Clutch City with those rainbow decals.



Le Duke said:


> 1315g now; 1305g after going from
> MS to XD tomorrow.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

They aren't rainbow; oil slick that caught the light the right way during the photo op.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

MegaStoke said:


> Just wanted to check in, I've been riding the absolute piss out of my Onyx Vesper, Crank Bros Synthesis Carbon E Rims, and Berd wheelset for just about a year now and they've been flawless. I've raced enduro and downhill, have hundreds of miles of rocky singletrack bikepacking on them, and even hucked some pretty big cliffs at the Rampage site, and they're still as true and tension balanced as day one. They are a bit creaky when I pull a trials move, but they're very quiet in normal riding.


My DT 240s/Nextie offset carbon build is approaching 3 years in service. Been in some MTB races, pedaled lots of rocky/rooty trails and even more XC/"Trail+" riding. A rock hit nicked/frayed the outer covering on one of the spokes after maybe a year. I had to tension that one spoke up a bit. Otherwise haven't had to touch them.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

Considering Berd XC25 wheelset with i9 hydra. Saw a couple comments about them but looking for more feedback. Want a light wheelset for Epic Evo.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

All I can say is that I'm happy enough with my 2 sets of Berd wheels (I provided hubs & rims in both cases) that I'm currently having a 3rd set built for a new DC build.

I think highly of the product, warranty & service. Even though this lace up is taking 2-3x longer than I was expecting.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I can share that hand-building Berd wheels is difficult. Now that I've built my first set, I know how I'd save a little time, but my wife can knit a scarf faster than it took me to build my wheels, lol. 

For nearly everybody it's worth the extra $500 for Berd to build. I prefer to hand-select my hubs and rims, and may be building a mud racing wheelset soon. I like the durability reports I'm hearing, at the trail/enduro level, so they seem to be a good long-term commitment. 

If I had more time and less money I'd also hand-rebuild my road bike wheels because for vibration damping and noise muting, these spokes are fantastic.


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

Berd builds for way less than $500. Something like <$100 per set last time I ordered some. (For build labor , above cost of spokes themselves )


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## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

EdSawyer said:


> Berd builds for way less than $500. Something like <$100 per set last time I ordered some. (For build labor , above cost of spokes themselves )


No, they don't. You can't unbundle the cost of the spokes and the labor when building through Berd.

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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

I really like my Berd wheels. I haven't needed to true them and haven't tensioned them up after 1000 miles or so.


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

Berd charges $88 to build a set of 32-spoke wheels using their spokes per their website. $600 for a berd rebuild vs $512 for the spokes separately. That's a screaming deal IMNSHO.



waltaz said:


> No, they don't. You can't unbundle the cost of the spokes and the labor when building through Berd.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

chomxxo said:


> I can share that hand-building Berd wheels is difficult. Now that I've built my first set, I know how I'd save a little time, but my wife can knit a scarf faster than it took me to build my wheels, lol.


Yep.

It takes me 10-11 minutes to lace a normal j-bend wheel with 32 spokes.

It takes me over an hour to lace a 32 spoke Berd wheel. And that's just the lacing -- it still takes 3 full rounds of tensioning, over 3 days, to finish it.

Double the lacing time for Berd's in a straight pull hub. Which is one of the more frustrating/unrewarding mechanical tasks I've ever done. And not one I plan to do again.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

I may source the rim/hubs and send it to them. It's disappointing they don't offer a lightweight hub with their wheelset. Sure the weight is offset by the light spokes but the point is to make it as light as possible.


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

dundundata said:


> I may source the rim/hubs and send it to them. It's disappointing they don't offer a lightweight hub with their wheelset. Sure the weight is offset by the light spokes but the point is to make it as light as possible.


Just email them. I requested different hubs when I ordered my TR27 wheels. They will build whatever you want.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

I got my 180s from R2. Almost certainly far cheaper than you’ll get them from Berd.


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

Same here. They will build with what you send. I have a 27.5" set of BTLOS 25mm ID rims with DT180s that came out to 1070g with berd spokes, which is lighter and cheaper than the wheels they offer themselves.



Le Duke said:


> I got my 180s from R2. Almost certainly far cheaper than you'll get them from Berd.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

Trying to decide between the BTLOS i25 and i27. About the same weight, the i27 being a shallower rim. I think the extra width would be nice, but don't know about deep vs shallow (25 vs18mm).


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## MegaStoke (Aug 27, 2018)

dundundata said:


> Trying to decide between the BTLOS i25 and i27. About the same weight, the i27 being a shallower rim. I think the extra width would be nice, but don't know about deep vs shallow (25 vs18mm).


All other things being equal, shallower rims will ride more vertically compliant. Get the i27s.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

MegaStoke said:


> All other things being equal, shallower rims will ride more vertically compliant. Get the i27s.


I'd just get the 27's because then your riding dial goes to 11.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

New build will be BTLOS i27 extra light with Dt 180s and black Berd spoke built by Berd, should be light!


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## angryoldman (Jun 15, 2015)

Interested in the Berd wheels purchased thru their site. What brand rims do they use? 
Thanks,


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

I couldn't find any markings on them. I have the TR27's. I suspect if you emailed them they would just tell you though. They are pretty responsive and open to inquiries.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Has anyone ever timed themselves on a Berd rear spoked rear wheel vs. a very similar wheel but with standard steel spokes?

I love the weight, reliability & chatter dampening that Berd spokes provides and am having my 3rd wheel set built up now. 

However I'm always struck by how much faster steel spokes 'feel' when I ride them. Even when the wheel with steel spokes is 1/2# heavier as is my back up wheel with same hub but different rim & spokes, the difference is obvious. Berd's have a certain wind up period, not unlike Onyx hubs if you are familiar. 

No idea if it hurts my actual speed, my feeling is that it gives it all back and maybe even assists traction, but it feels slower to me. 

Anyone measured?

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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

Tyres with higher pressure FEEL faster too.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

NordieBoy said:


> Tyres with higher pressure FEEL faster too.


Valid point.

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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Feel means nothing. In fact if it feels faster, that may mean it's slower. My Miata felt like a race car at 75mph. Something that feels smooth and in control is probably allowing you to ride faster, the terrain feels less challenging. Look at how long even world cup racers held on to 26ers because they felt faster.

I do have some concerns about flexing in hard corners with Berd wheels, but let me take a step back and say: my Berd wheelset is 30.5mm internal width and only 1250g. Acceleration, even my 77 year old mother could tell the difference between my race wheelset and my 2000g steel-spoked trail wheels.


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

Been lurking in the BERD spoke area for a while. It's great to see some real world reviews on similar style riding. I'm thinking of building a set of wheels finally. Just can't decide between 32h or 28h. I'm in AZ with rocks galore, drops 3-6' and do technical riding (think Mag 7) and hit bike parks as well. Going with a 30mm ID rim for sure but unsure on the spoke count? 

Current bike is 2022 Stumpy EVO EXPERT 29

Any further insight would be great.

Thanks in advance.


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

So, I have the TR27's which are 28 spoke wheels. I thrash them regularly on downhill trails with rocks and roots. Haven't had any problems. I do run tougher casings and appropriate pressures. That being said, I think there is something to the flex that the spokes allow that let them survive some pretty harsh riding. I asked Berd when I ordered my wheels, and they said the 28 spoke would be fine. Since it was their reputation and warranty on the line, I just went with it. Taking them out of the package, I thought they were going to die on the first pedal stroke, they are super light. However, I don't think about it at all anymore and just send. My personal opinion is that you would be fine either way. Go with whatever makes you feel comfortable.


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

shakazulu12 said:


> So, I have the TR27's which are 28 spoke wheels. I thrash them regularly on downhill trails with rocks and roots. Haven't had any problems. I do run tougher casings and appropriate pressures. That being said, I think there is something to the flex that the spokes allow that let them survive some pretty harsh riding. I asked Berd when I ordered my wheels, and they said the 28 spoke would be fine. Since it was their reputation and warranty on the line, I just went with it. Taking them out of the package, I thought they were going to die on the first pedal stroke, they are super light. However, I don't think about it at all anymore and just send. My personal opinion is that you would be fine either way. Go with whatever makes you feel comfortable.


I think technology just advanced because back in day the 32 was pretty much the minimum if the going gets tough and you were north of 200.

These days even regular wheels with 28 spokes are rated way north of my not so little weight.


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## MegaStoke (Aug 27, 2018)

pedal-man said:


> Been lurking in the BERD spoke area for a while. It's great to see some real world reviews on similar style riding. I'm thinking of building a set of wheels finally. Just can't decide between 32h or 28h. I'm in AZ with rocks galore, drops 3-6' and do technical riding (think Mag 7) and hit bike parks as well. Going with a 30mm ID rim for sure but unsure on the spoke count?
> 
> Current bike is 2022 Stumpy EVO EXPERT 29
> 
> ...


I'm riding similar, if not the same stuff as you, on my Crank Bros Synthesis E Carbon (31.5/29.5mm internal, 28h/32h) and Berd wheels, and they've been absolutely perfect as far as I'm concerned. Lots of South Mountain, Moab, big bike park jumps and drops, WC DH courses, nasty Idaho motorcycle trails, a few Rampage zone mini golf hits, etc.

I'm running mine with 2.5/2.4 EXO+ tires(or equivalent) with Tannus tubeless armour, and couldn't be more stoked on the performance and reliability a year into riding the piss out of them.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

pedal-man said:


> Been lurking in the BERD spoke area for a while. It's great to see some real world reviews on similar style riding. I'm thinking of building a set of wheels finally. Just can't decide between 32h or 28h. I'm in AZ with rocks galore, drops 3-6' and do technical riding (think Mag 7) and hit bike parks as well. Going with a 30mm ID rim for sure but unsure on the spoke count?
> 
> Current bike is 2022 Stumpy EVO EXPERT 29
> 
> ...


Check out my post # 218 from this very thread. I built my first set of Berd wheels 2 years ago and those wheels are on my '21 SJ Evo now.

I'd build those wheels EXACTLY the same today. They have taken some insane abuse and weigh less than 1500 grams.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

I'm going 28 spokes, sub 200lb rider.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I've raced mine quite a few times this year and last, 24h front, 28h rear, ~185-195lbs. 

A wider, taller carbon rim is also something to consider in wheel strength. Back in the day, tiny, flexy aluminum rims needed more support to stay true. On the other hand, the more holes, the more a rim is weakened.


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

Excellent info guys. Appreciate the feedback. The stock ROVAL Aluminums wheels are 28 F/R. Was rolling Nobl TR37 laced to Onyx classic hubs on my 18 M6, but want to go with a lighter hub - HYDRA and 28h is what I'm going to do now. I also run thicker casing tires in the rear and appropriate pressures for the ride at hand. No Inserts...BTDT. 
Excited to get these for sure.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

New 29" Berd build. Not the very lightest at 1195 grams but about where I wanted to be for this application on an aggressively ridden Spur. Front is 29mm width Carbon Fan XC layup, 28H, Carbon Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub. Rear is 26mm width Carbon Fan Trail layup 32H, Carbon-Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub w/ XD driver.
















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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

Alright. New BERD 30mm wheelset ordered up with I9 Hydras, should be here in about 2 weeks or so from 
Boone Cycles Custom Yeti


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

Suns_PSD said:


> New 29" Berd build. Not the very lightest at 1195 grams but about where I wanted to be for this application on an aggressively ridden Spur. Front is 29mm width Carbon Fan XC layup, 28H, Carbon Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub. Rear is 26mm width Carbon Fan Trail layup 32H, Carbon-Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub w/ XD driver.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where'd you get these?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

MSU Alum said:


> Where'd you get these?


I specified the rim specs at CarbonFan and had them drop shipped directly to Berd.

I found the front hub at Fair wheel bikes but they didn't have the rear hub in stock. But I had an order coming over from R2 bikes anyways and I was able to add in at no additional shipping charge the rear hub.

Then I shipped both hubs to Berd.

Then Berd didn't have the little stainless steel sleeves for straight pull hubs in stock so a bit more delay over there. It all took quite some time and my total cost I think was about $1,800. But I'm very happy with them.

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## iErnest85 (Oct 8, 2017)

Suns_PSD said:


> New 29" Berd build. Not the very lightest at 1195 grams but about where I wanted to be for this application on an aggressively ridden Spur. Front is 29mm width Carbon Fan XC layup, 28H, Carbon Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub. Rear is 26mm width Carbon Fan Trail layup 32H, Carbon-Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub w/ XD driver.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Suns_PSD said:


> New 29" Berd build. Not the very lightest at 1195 grams but about where I wanted to be for this application on an aggressively ridden Spur. Front is 29mm width Carbon Fan XC layup, 28H, Carbon Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub. Rear is 26mm width Carbon Fan Trail layup 32H, Carbon-Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub w/ XD driver.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your wheels look awesome!

I'm really curious to do a very similar build for my Spur as well but using the Shallow BTLOS wheels mounted to i9 Hydra hubs:

• Front Wheel:









M-i30AS (Premium)
30mm IW / 18mm Tall
28 Holes
395g +/-15g

• Rear Wheel:









M-i27AS (Premium)
27mm IW / 18mm Tall
32 Holes
350g +/-15g

One of the wheelsets I'm currently using on my Spur is the BTLOS M-i30AS (Premium) Front and Rear. Both 32 holes on i9 hydra hubs with Sapim CX-Ray spokes and brass nipples 1,605g. So I'm already familiar with BTLOS and really like them.
Sometimes I'm even thinking that the BTLOS might be even better than the Crank Brothers Synthesis E11 that I'm using on my SB130 LR. I just never had the chance to really compare both wheelsets with the same tires on the same bike. I just know as a fact that Synthesis E11 is half a pound (220g) heavier than the M-i30AS.

If I could shave off additional approx 200g from the 1,605g by using 28 Berd spokes in the front, lighter wheel in the rear with 32 Berd spokes and get the new wheelset closer to 1,400g that should make the Spur just 

Do you remember what was the actual weight of each CarbonFan rim you used for your Berd wheelset build?
And could you share with me a bit more info of what would be the best approach to do a Berd build like that by using provided by me rims and hubs but sending that to Berd for assembly?

Thanks!

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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

It's my 3rd set of CarbonFan rims and I trust Arthor (the owner I guess) over there. He has jumped through hoops for me on a couple of occasions and my first set of his wheels have taken some really hard hits with no damage beyond nicks. The website can be a bit confusing and you have to dig around a lot. I could probably provide my real name by PM and you could just ask Arthor to copy my order exactly? As I recall BTLO is a bit cheaper but has also had some recent failures.

For this newest set, the bare front rim weighed 378 grams & the rear weighed 346 grams. They cost me $409 shipped.

Really nothing to do special, order all of your parts and send them to Berd to build. That's it. Don't screw up!

Should also add that the bike feels really sharp and quick on these wheels while helping with chatter. Very pleased with them.


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

All the black spokes are actually white spokes just dyed black? Is that correct? Is it possible to "bleach" them back to white? When I was asking Berd about building a set of wheels, I asked for the 2 spokes next to the valve stem to be white and the rest black. They stated that they don't do custom lacing and they all had to be white or black! Which seemed odd to me since they are building from scratch...is it possible to take them back to white and then dye them red or blue?


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Yes, they all start white. The black ones lose color with use and a Sharpie makes them look just like they did when new. Alcohol will usually remove that kind of dye. The material does not seem to take the color all that well so it's probably possible to remove most of it, but I don't know for sure if they ever get back to completely white because I keep fixing the black on mine. A local company builds with Berd and they recently posted a photo of spokes only dyed to the crosses. So there is a lot of room for customization.


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> It's my 3rd set of CarbonFan rims and I trust Arthor (the owner I guess) over there. He has jumped through hoops for me on a couple of occasions and my first set of his wheels have taken some really hard hits with no damage beyond nicks. The website can be a bit confusing and you have to dig around a lot. I could probably provide my real name by PM and you could just ask Arthor to copy my order exactly? As I recall BTLO is a bit cheaper but has also had some recent failures.
> 
> For this newest set, the bare front rim weighed 378 grams & the rear weighed 346 grams. They cost me $409 shipped.
> 
> ...


Holy crap! That's incredible pricing.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

mtnbkrmike said:


> Holy crap! That's incredible pricing.


$409 is actually a bit high for Chinese direct rims (not wheels).


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## mtnbkrmike (Mar 26, 2015)

Suns_PSD said:


> $409 is actually a bit high for Chinese direct rims (not wheels).


Yes. I misunderstood what the $409 included ?

I'm pondering a couple of options at the moment...I think I know the direction I will go, but now is the time to rethink things while I have the chance, just to make sure I am sure.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Suns_PSD said:


> New 29" Berd build. Not the very lightest at 1195 grams but about where I wanted to be for this application on an aggressively ridden Spur. Front is 29mm width Carbon Fan XC layup, 28H, Carbon Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub. Rear is 26mm width Carbon Fan Trail layup 32H, Carbon-Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub w/ XD driver.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very impressive total weight, with a higher spoke count and about equal rim weights yours are about 55g lighter. Those Carbon Ti hubs must be featherweight.

I'm overdue to build a mud racing wheelset, what's your source for the hubs and price, direct?

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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Velodonata said:


> Yes, they all start white. The black ones lose color with use and a Sharpie makes them look just like they did when new. Alcohol will usually remove that kind of dye. The material does not seem to take the color all that well so it's probably possible to remove most of it, but I don't know for sure if they ever get back to completely white because I keep fixing the black on mine. A local company builds with Berd and they recently posted a photo of spokes only dyed to the crosses. So there is a lot of room for customization.


OK so after a steady stream of muddy races I've got a question in my head--do I dare to clean the white spokes with bleach?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Fair wheel bikes is your best source for Carbon Ti hubs in the US. Can also order them from R2 in Germany. 
I just ordered them online at retail. 
Pre-Covid I would try and finagle a discount but these times are different. Supply chains are limited, and my timeline was hurried.
Don't clean your spokes with bleach. Soap and water should do it. 
I really like these wheels and they feel confident. At this point I trust them to do most of my riding from rough trail on down , at least with the rear insert. 

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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

chomxxo said:


> OK so after a steady stream of muddy races I've got a question in my head--do I dare to clean the white spokes with bleach?


Probably not a good idea. I've mostly been trying to keep mine black, but the reluctance of the spokes to retain color should also make them easier to clean.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Yeah they don't look too bad, but soap and water won't get them completely clean. The textured surface is going to collect some dirt and recent races haven't been kind. I'll ask Berd--a 10% bleach solution probably won't hurt.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

Klaster_1 said:


> You can have any color as long as it's white. At least for now.


Not Berd...but now in RAINBOW!
Roll on rainbows with new Pi Rope colored fiber spokes, Lefty wheel & many more rim options!


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

smartyiak said:


> Not Berd...but now in RAINBOW!
> Roll on rainbows with new Pi Rope colored fiber spokes, Lefty wheel & many more rim options!
> 
> View attachment 1947582


€20 per colour?
Autsch!
But very pretty I might say myself.


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## smartyiak (Apr 29, 2009)

acer66 said:


> €20 per colour?
> Autsch!
> But very pretty I might say myself.


Maybe that's "with VAT?" 😬


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

smartyiak said:


> Maybe that's "with VAT?" 😬


More with a Wot!


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

640€/wheel? No problem! I'll just stand in front of the Bahnhof before a football game and collect bottles for the pfand.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

wonder if it's worth it going for black spokes if you need to color them in?


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> Yeah they don't look too bad, but soap and water won't get them completely clean. The textured surface is going to collect some dirt and recent races haven't been kind. I'll ask Berd--a 10% bleach solution probably won't hurt.


Throw some dirt in bleach. See how white it turns.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

Suns_PSD said:


> New 29" Berd build. Not the very lightest at 1195 grams but about where I wanted to be for this application on an aggressively ridden Spur. Front is 29mm width Carbon Fan XC layup, 28H, Carbon Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub. Rear is 26mm width Carbon Fan Trail layup 32H, Carbon-Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub w/ XD driver.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am blown away at this weight, especially for the rear wheel. I just put my enve m6 30 on the scale, (it just happened to be stripped down to the hub since I recently broke the inner axle) and it came in at 1,000 grams,,, I have a revel ranger and like you want this to be a rocket ship.

do have any experience in comparing the performance of the 26mm to 30mm rim?? (for a 2.4 I run kenda booster) I am wondering If I would even notice any traction loss??

How do you like those hubs??


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

Le Duke said:


> 1315g now; 1305g after going from
> MS to XD tomorrow.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


so how are you liking these wheels??? would love a ride report. thinking of the same build. whats the weight of the rear alone??


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Dave Mac said:


> so how are you liking these wheels??? would love a ride report. thinking of the same build. whats the weight of the rear alone??


600 front, 705 rear.

They are great. I could have gone super light, but I bought these rims (420g) because I didn't want to think about my wheels, ever. I've hit a couple of square edged rocks so hard that I almost got kicked over the bars. Going down a fast downhill where I took a bad line off a 2' drop into another drop with a bunch of rocks just off the main line. Not even a nick.

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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Charlie from Berd said that the spokes are resistant to bleach and it shouldn't be a problem to use a partial solution, although they don't test them with it.

Although I cheer the new Berd builds, I personally wouldn't recommend buying any rims with less than a 30mm internal width these days, I just don't see why you'd want to lose the stiffness, volume, or handling advantages going any smaller.

I think the width-to-tire suggested ratios charts are not really based in fact; I saw a general test somewhere that settled upon 35mm internal width being the best all-around. I can tell you that 2.35s on even 39mm internal width ride pretty well, are still round and are unbelievably confident (there is a little torque steer but they're heavy aluminum). It's another artifact of the old-school 90s bikes that we're finally shedding, funny how those even older Schwinn cruisers got a lot of things right the first time.

On another note, after looking at Suns_PSD's build I recognized that there's really zero reason to build Berd wheelsets with J-Bend hubs. You should just go straight-pull if at all possible. There's a little plasticky thing that forms a cross to hold the spoke loop in place and it's simplest pulling straight-on.

I'm interested to hear if those Carbon Ti hubs hold up too, the DT Swiss 240 doesn't have the greatest engagement but it's kept ticking like a Rolex for years.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

chomxxo said:


> there's really zero reason to build Berd wheelsets with J-Bend hubs.


I'll give you one very good one: It takes almost twice as long to lace Berd's into straight-pull hubs.

I did it once -- for myself -- and won't ever, for any reason, do it again.

There's simply no benefit to straight pull, beyond giving marketing hacks cause to spin facts.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I hear what you're saying but the design of Berd spokes is very different than traditional steel spokes, as different as could possibly be. I built up with J-bend hubs because I like to build with what I have already and make use of it if I can. What was the reason for the build taking twice as long? I'm with you on it taking a long time for sure compared to steel spokes.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Wouldn't change a thing on these wheels. They feel great and take plenty of abuse. 
I do run a 70 gram insert in the rear as it stabilizes the tire and protects my învestment.

Attached is a Shockwiz report from yesterday.

Ps. I couldn't disagree more that wider wheels are better. I tried that and there is a reason no Pros, in any discipline run 35mm ID wheels. The tire sits flat which messes up your handling and rolling resistance, the rims are too rigid and quite heavy, and the wheels get exposed and damage.










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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

The DH GOAT (Greg Minaar) uses 31mm internal width rims and 2.5" tires.








Reserve 31|DH


Modern downhill tracks are not for the faint of heart and the abuse of a day racing a DH race or laps in the park is no joke. But we’ve got your back with the Reserve DH wheels. Tested to victory with the Santa Cruz Syndicate on the World Cup DH circuit, it is the carbon wheelset that delivers...




www.santacruzbicycles.com





The XC GOAT (Nino Schurter) uses 30mm internal width rims and 2.4" tires, but he rode these with 2.25s and inserts for a year or two as well.


https://www.scott-sports.com/global/en/product/syncros-silverton-1-0s-30mm-wheelset


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Well I agree that about 30 mm is ideal which is why I order rims in approximately those widths. The problem is 30 isn't 35 is it?

The vast majority of DH & XC pros run in the neighborhood of 25-28mm ID wheels. 

You also mentioned 2 high profile riders riding brands that sell high end rims. Clearly both riders have incentive to run what their sponsors are selling.

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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Here is the in-depth review on rim width.



https://m.pinkbike.com/news/rim-widths-comparison-test-mountain-bike.html



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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Sounds like you are convinced that you'll prefer 35mm rims. Sincerely hoping you will. 

I owned high end 35mm carbon wheels, just didn't enjoy them. They were rigid and rough feeling, the bike rolled poorly, initiated turns worse, and couldn't lean as far over before slipping cause the WT Maxxis tires were so square. Also not many good tires fit rims in this range. The E22 being the only tire I truly adore that fits wheels this wide properly. 

26-33mm is my sweet spot, but narrower in the rear & also narrower for less aggressive applications such as XC to better fit the tires. 
Good luck!

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## MegaStoke (Aug 27, 2018)

Totally agree with SunsPSD on rim width. 35mm is wider than optimal for performance mtb applications. Perfect for me would be 28-30mm front, 26-28mm rear.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

chomxxo said:


> Here is the in-depth review on rim width.


Newsflash: There are a lot of different tire sizes in use on mountain bikes these days.

Most are running 2.4/2.5/2.6", for sure.

But there are still thousands and thousands running as small as 2.0 and as big as 3.0.

Suggesting that one width of rim will work across the board is ignorant bordering on laughable, especially when it's not even ideal for the biggest chunk of the demographic.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

It sounds like you have an opinion on that which you should share with the author of the article. He makes a pretty earnest and detailed attempt to quantify what you're dismissing as "laughable." Facts are facts, and opinions, well we all have them 

I would like to hear your thoughts on why a straight-pull Berd build takes twice as long though, I don't understand that.



mikesee said:


> Newsflash: There are a lot of different tire sizes in use on mountain bikes these days.
> 
> Most are running 2.4/2.5/2.6", for sure.
> 
> ...


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

Meh, the mere fact that some people like Troy Bosnan are running 25mm, while others run as much as 35mm in EWS etc should tell you that it's still down to personal feel. People are shredding hard on all sorts of setups. Just ride whatever gives you a bigger smile.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

chomxxo said:


> It sounds like you have an opinion on that which you should share with the author of the article. He makes a pretty earnest and detailed attempt to quantify what you're dismissing as "laughable." Facts are facts, and opinions, well we all have them
> 
> I would like to hear your thoughts on why a straight-pull Berd build takes twice as long though, I don't understand that.


Suggesting that one width of rim works across all tire sizes is akin to saying that one size of frame works for every person.

Neither is remotely true, no matter who "authors" the article.

Berd's in straight pull hubs require fitting a metal insert over the spoke end, in addition to the fabric plug, which requires yet another tool in play during lacing. It literally doubles the time, which -- for me -- raised the frustration factor exponentially.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I choose straight pull cause it looks cool and the price was exactly the same. 

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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> I choose straight pull cause... ...the price was exactly the same.


On your end it might have been...


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

Can't lie.........I got straight pull for the same reasons. I feel like I should send them a case of beer now.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

What about spoke contact in 2-3x lacing? 
No advantage there with non-steel spokes? 

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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> Facts are facts, and opinions, well we all have them


Here are the "facts" from the article:
"25mm Report: The 25mm rim made the overall rear tyre profile *feel* very round"
"30mm Report: Moving up to the 30mm rim, the bike immediately *felt* more stable, more composed."
"35mm Report: The next step was the 35mm rim. The difference in terms of contact patch was less pronounced compared to the jump between 25mm and 30mm, it is a much more subtle difference. It *felt* a little more stable again and made it easier to push harder still, but it was subtle."

I think this is a valuable perspective, but to suggest that this guy's *feelings* (opinions) are irrefutable *facts* is stretching it pretty hard!


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Lol, those are not facts, those are opinions. SMH. There's even a "Separating Facts from Feelings" section. Then scroll down to the "Clock Doesn't Lie" section.



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/rim-widths-comparison-test-mountain-bike.html



Unfortunately I get this all the time.



MSU Alum said:


> Here are the "facts" from the article:
> "25mm Report: The 25mm rim made the overall rear tyre profile *feel* very round"
> "30mm Report: Moving up to the 30mm rim, the bike immediately *felt* more stable, more composed."
> "35mm Report: The next step was the 35mm rim. The difference in terms of contact patch was less pronounced compared to the jump between 25mm and 30mm, it is a much more subtle difference. It *felt* a little more stable again and made it easier to push harder still, but it was subtle."
> ...


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Suns_PSD said:


> Well I agree that about 30 mm is ideal which is why I order rims in approximately those widths. The problem is 30 isn't 35 is it?
> 
> The vast majority of DH & XC pros run in the neighborhood of 25-28mm ID wheels.
> 
> ...


Just a little context on rim choices in both XC and DH.

Right now some DH riders are choosing narrow 25-27mm rims to try and get a DH casing tire with crush core to flex under cornering for grip. The tire and insert makes everything so stiff that need less support to corner.

In XC racing the 170tpi tires are so supple that in 2.4 you need either a lot of air pressure or a wide rim to get any kind of support.

Rims, tires, and inserts are a system and they work best when paired appropriately.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

chomxxo said:


> Unfortunately I get this all the time.


Which part? The part where dozens and dozens of data points conflict with the single data point that you've decided to hang your hat on?


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

chomxxo said:


> Lol, those are not facts, those are opinions. SMH. There's even a "Separating Facts from Feelings" section. Then scroll down to the "Clock Doesn't Lie" section.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was my point. You said they were facts. They're opinions.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

mikesee said:


> Which part? The part where dozens and dozens of data points conflict with the single data point that you've decided to hang your hat on?


No they don't. There's nothing in that article that conflicts with the conclusion. The rims that proved fastest were 35mm and 30mm internal. I do get a lot of arguing around facts that clutters up threads though. Do us both a favor and let's move on.

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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

The data points he’s referencing aren’t in that article. It’s pretty obvious it’s not a universal conclusion as has already been pointed out. The info card that came with my Kenda Pinners stated the ideal width goes with that tire was 28mm as an example. One guy, one tire and one trails isn’t really all encompassing. 

But still doesn’t matter much overall as I said before. Ride what works best for you.


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

"Just so we are explicit here - this is not a definitive test."


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

What color spokes work best with a 30+mm rim?


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

006_007 said:


> What color spokes work best with a 30+mm rim?


Oilslick for sure.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

006_007 said:


> What color spokes work best with a 30+mm rim?


Chartreuse.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

My son was significantly faster on a 20 inch wheel. He actually couldn’t even reach the pedals on a 29er. The numbers didn’t lie, 20inch wheels are fastest for all.


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

Finally got my BERD wheelset with the new 30mm carbon hoops and I9 hydra hubs, all black. All I can say is WOW, what a difference. I broke them in on some rocky technical loops in the area and they definitely dampen the chunder. They spin up pretty quickly too. I dropped 550+ grams of my Aluminum ROVAL wheelset. Weight on these is 1480g.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Where do I find these wheels that "feel very round"....?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## Jdcun11 (May 6, 2020)

pedal-man said:


> Finally got my BERD wheelset with the new 30mm carbon hoops and I9 hydra hubs, all black. All I can say is WOW, what a difference. I broke them in on some rocky technical loops in the area and they definitely dampen the chunder. They spin up pretty quickly too. I dropped 550+ grams of my Aluminum ROVAL wheelset. Weight on these is 1480g.


Did you get the Berd TR30 wheelset or are you using a different rim?


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

Jdcun11 said:


> Did you get the Berd TR30 wheelset or are you using a different rim?


The new BERD branded TR30mm carbon


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

I'm 220-240lbs depending on the season. 

I've grown to have serious trust issues with 28h wheels, but modern rims have helped. I know that DT Swiss is pumping out lots of 28h wheelsets that plenty of people my size are doing just fine with.

Would 28 Berd spokes be more reliable than 32 Sapim Race or similar Pillar PSR2017? Rim being equal, that is.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Berd spokes are effectively unbreakable so yes. And a 28h rim is stronger than a 32h. As far as I can tell, the greatest risk is of pulling the nipple through the rim in an extreme situation, because the spokes aren't going to break.

And make sure to get 30-35mm internal width rims for best pressure and handling, thank me later


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

RIDE REPORT: Amazing! Just got back from MOAB and hit Ahab - Mag 7 Goldbar PORTAL - Enchilada -/ Porcupine
These wheels took all kinds of abuse with drops 5-7' hucks to flat etc...although my bike did bottom out a tad in the rear, suspension wise. Ate up all the chunder on Enchilada/Porcu. Still tru. Definitely made every ride smoother and easier to pedal when doing longer rides.

Worth every penny!


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

Suns_PSD said:


> New 29" Berd build. Not the very lightest at 1195 grams but about where I wanted to be for this application on an aggressively ridden Spur. Front is 29mm width Carbon Fan XC layup, 28H, Carbon Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub. Rear is 26mm width Carbon Fan Trail layup 32H, Carbon-Ti straight pull 6 bolt hub w/ XD driver.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how's the carbon-ti rear hub holding up?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

dundundata said:


> how's the carbon-ti rear hub holding up?


Not a single problem out of this wheel build. Ridden quite a bit, and although it's not my big bike, I've done small drops (up to about 2.5') and plenty of jumps. 
I really like the hubs and wonder if they would be appropriate for a big bike build too.

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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

Need some info on the final tension that I'm supposed to do at about 400 miles. What are you guys doing as far as the final tension KGF wise on a Park Tool TM-1? When my wheels first came in I took initial reading on all the spokes with the TM-1, should I just tension them back to that or a touch more?

Thanks


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

chomxxo said:


> Berd spokes are effectively unbreakable so yes.
> 
> And a 28h rim is stronger than a 32h.
> 
> ...



I just...

Where do you get...

Sigh.

Start by proving any _one_ of those statements. Just one.

I write that rhetorically, because not one of your statements is demonstrably true.

Berd spokes break -- it happens.

Real world rim strength has nothing to do with hole count.

Appropriate rim width is a function of tire size, rider weight, terrain, desired pressures, angle of the dangle, and many other factors. 

Sheesh.


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

pedal-man said:


> Need some info on the final tension that I'm supposed to do at about 400 miles. What are you guys doing as far as the final tension KGF wise on a Park Tool TM-1? When my wheels first came in I took initial reading on all the spokes with the TM-1, should I just tension them back to that or a touch more?
> 
> Thanks


I have never retensioned my Berd spokes. The wheels feel great, compliant without feeling noodley. I seem to recall a recommendation of turning 1/4 turn on the Berd site, but haven't felt the need to do so.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I've never seen anyone put so much knowledge to such poor use. Take "effectively" to an extreme and start pontificating, I guess. I quoted an article that proved wide rims are better, beyond hyperbole.

Three strikes; you have the honor of joining my ignore list.





mikesee said:


> I just...
> 
> Where do you get...
> 
> ...


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

pedal-man said:


> Need some info on the final tension that I'm supposed to do at about 400 miles. What are you guys doing as far as the final tension KGF wise on a Park Tool TM-1? When my wheels first came in I took initial reading on all the spokes with the TM-1, should I just tension them back to that or a touch more?
> 
> Thanks



On a TM-1 I'm tensioning a little above the 12 mark on every spoke, no higher than 14. You'll definitely want to do that at least once after the initial build. It may seem like your spokes are tensioned enough, then you go off a drop or take a hard corner and get a surprise.


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

chomxxo said:


> On a TM-1 I'm tensioning a little above the 12 mark on every spoke, no higher than 14. You'll definitely want to do that at least once after the initial build. It may seem like your spokes are tensioned enough, then you go off a drop or take a hard corner and get a surprise.



Good to know chomxxo...mine were between 9 and 12 new. But I've been beating them up with tech and drops. Going to do the final retention in a couple weeks. Thank you


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## nemesis256 (Aug 16, 2014)

Piggybacking on the tension talk, I just got a wheel set with Berd spokes. I find that when squeezing them by hand, they're more flexy than normal spokes. Is this normal?

I feel like I should get the TM-1 tool now just to keep them consistent.


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

nemesis256 said:


> Piggybacking on the tension talk, I just got a wheel set with Berd spokes. I find that when squeezing them by hand, they're more flexy than normal spokes. Is this normal?
> 
> I feel like I should get the TM-1 tool now just to keep them consistent.


No that is not normal and should almost be very taught similar to steel spokes. A spoke tension tool is priceless.


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## nemesis256 (Aug 16, 2014)

Thanks, I got a TM-1 on the way.

Noticed something odd on the Berd FAQ page, talking about spoke tension. "turning each nipple by 2 full turns from the tire side of the nipple while using the Berd spoke holding tool to prevent the spokes from twisting". Twisting? Holding tool? Is this necessary? Any other way to hold it?


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

Berd Spoke Replacement Toolkit


Kit includes tools needed to replace a Berd Spoke: Spoke holding tool for preventing wind up during truing Spoke pulling tool for pulling the spokes through the hub Insert pushing tool for pushing inserts on heads of spoke for straight pull spokes Thin spoke wrench for turning nipples when not...




berdspokes.com


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## tom1759 (Jan 6, 2022)

I'm looking into getting some carbon wheels for my stumpy evo and after reading through this thread and other reviews the berd TR30 wheels are very intriguing as they're about 250g lighter than the competition while not being much more expensive than other carbon hydra wheelsets and according to them the spokes are stronger. I have a couple questions for anyone who has experience with them:
1. How difficult are they to service? Will bike shops even service these spokes?
2. Does anyone have experience with their warranty process? I'm a little disappointed they only have a 5 year warranty while the competition offer lifetime warranties.


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

tom1759 said:


> I'm looking into getting some carbon wheels for my stumpy evo and after reading through this thread and other reviews the berd TR30 wheels are very intriguing as they're about 250g lighter than the competition while not being much more expensive than other carbon hydra wheelsets and according to them the spokes are stronger. I have a couple questions for anyone who has experience with them:
> 1. How difficult are they to service? Will bike shops even service these spokes?
> 2. Does anyone have experience with their warranty process? I'm a little disappointed they only have a 5 year warranty while the competition offer lifetime warranties.


I will let you know how the warranty process goes after I get mine back. I just sent mine off on 1/03/22 for a dented carbon rim on the bead edge riding National/Telegraph on SoMo...ooops. Earlier in the ride I had a slight sidewall leak and fixed er up. I assume my air pressure was a bit lower than I normally run causing the impact on some square edged rocks on the tech drop sections. My buddy "snake bit" his rear tire right in front of me on the same section.

Hell, I took them through all of Moabs best stuff about 3 months ago and no issues at all.

Second : Didn't notice it til I got home, but one of the spokes was severely damaged too. 

I love the feel of the wheelset tho...I would buy them again.


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)




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## tom1759 (Jan 6, 2022)

pedal-man said:


> View attachment 1964515


Damn that’s rough! Hopefully you get a replacement soon. 
Do people recommend these for enduro riding? I don’t do anything crazy, maybe hit a 3-5 foot drop a couple times each ride and some mid size jumps. I want to build up to bigger features this year though. Them being so light is what concerns me.


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## TazMini (Jun 21, 2019)

tom1759 said:


> Damn that’s rough! Hopefully you get a replacement soon.
> Do people recommend these for enduro riding? I don’t do anything crazy, maybe hit a 3-5 foot drop a couple times each ride and some mid size jumps. I want to build up to bigger features this year though. Them being so light is what concerns me.


I ride my TR30s on my Enduro rig. I am 220lbs and hit things up to 5-6’ range and have not had issues. 
That said I have a buddy who is a monster (burps tires cornering super hard) and the Berd wheels were too flexy he said. So I think there is a point where a stiffer/heavier wheel is warranted. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

Looks like time for a new rim. Done that to a few carbon wheels. Definitely a rock strike and most likely not covered under the warranty. Looks like Berd has a pretty decent crash replacement though for 200.


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## Kyle2834 (May 4, 2007)

My main issue with Berds is they won't lace them up to a rim without spoke holes in the rim bed for a tapeless setup. Since Berd spokes only save about 50g per wheel compared to using CX-rays (less if you mix super cx-rays with the regular), I couldn't justify that weight savings for the simplicity of not ever needing tape.

Hopefully that changes in the future.


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## wschruba (Apr 13, 2012)

Kyle2834 said:


> My main issue with Berds is they won't lace them up to a rim without spoke holes in the rim bed for a tapeless setup. Since Berd spokes only save about 50g per wheel compared to using CX-rays (less if you mix super cx-rays with the regular), I couldn't justify that weight savings for the simplicity of not ever needing tape.
> 
> Hopefully that changes in the future.


I can't even begin to imagine how much of a PITA it would be to tension/true without access to the back of the nipple.

I mean, I CAN, and it's not pretty. You would have to use a 90° spoke wrench and turn the nipple maybe 1/2 a turn at a time. Combined with the irritating lacing process, as well as needing to retension, it's not surprising that they won't do that.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Berd utilizes a screwdriver like tool to hold the back of the nipple so they need a straight shot.

They also save more than 50 grams per wheel. As I recall a Berd spoke came in at 2.3 grams whereas a blade spoke was 5.9 grams as I recall. Around 100 grams savings per wheel. 

Ps. I too would love to have wheels with no spoke access holes drilled in the rim bed.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

I have built 4 wheelsets now with Berds and will definitely continue to use them. 3 of the sets (6 wheels) UST style without holes. They are definitely a serious pain in the ass to stretch the spoke and start threading the nipples. The last set I built I used lower profile BTLOS rims and the internal was too shallow to pull the nipple through so I used conventional holed rims. Sooooooo much easier with the Berds, actually about the same as conventional spokes. With the difficulties of building the UST style rims with Berds I can definitely see why they don't want to do it. If using conventional spokes I would definitely use UST style rims.

Last build

XTR Boost Hubs
28, 3x Black Berd spokes with 4 white spokes around each valve
Aluminum Nipples
BTLOS M-i27AS Rims (27mm internal)
1280g
Terske ti valves
MucOff tape

As my 19yo son says "These wheels F*ck!!"


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## Kyle2834 (May 4, 2007)

wschruba said:


> I can't even begin to imagine how much of a PITA it would be to tension/true without access to the back of the nipple.
> 
> I mean, I CAN, and it's not pretty. You would have to use a 90° spoke wrench and turn the nipple maybe 1/2 a turn at a time. Combined with the irritating lacing process, as well as needing to retension, it's not surprising that they won't do that.


Ohh I gotcha, yeah that makes sense. That would be a pain.



Suns_PSD said:


> Berd utilizes a screwdriver like tool to hold the back of the nipple so they need a straight shot.
> 
> They also save more than 50 grams per wheel. As I recall a Berd spoke came in at 2.3 grams whereas a blade spoke was 5.9 grams as I recall. Around 100 grams savings per wheel.
> 
> ...


CX-rays are listed at 4.4g and Super CX-rays at 3.75g. So a 28/28 wheelset with half super CX ray and half regular would have about 228g of spokes, or 128g with berd. Along with any difference in weight for rim tape.



AKamp said:


> Terske ti valves


Didn't know this existed. Stop making me spend money!


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## tom1759 (Jan 6, 2022)

So I’m between the TR30 wheels and the We Are One Unions and could use some advice. Both are similarly priced after shipping so price isn’t an issue. Both are carbon 30mm internal width rims, so very similar aside from the spokes. I ride a stumpy evo 2022 in the northeast US and mostly ride local rocky trails but also go to downhill parks occasionally. I do a good bit of climbing on local trails (~1500-2000ft per ride). I’m 165lbs so about average

Here are the pros/cons of both I see:

TR30 Pros:
Significantly lighter, about 250g of weight savings. Would be nice for climbing
Cons: harder to service, also I’ve never built a wheel so doing work on them seems a little intimidating. I’m not sure if local bike shops would work on them. Only 5 year warranty
WAO Union
Pros: Great customer service, lifetime warranty
Cons: heavier, spokes are weaker (is this true?)


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

3rd option: Neither. How about BTLOS 30mm ID rims, hubs of choice (I recommend DT 180 or Extralite Hyperboost 3) and BERD spokes. It will be lighter and cheaper than either of the other options, and with at least as good a warranty/reliability I'd think. I've not had to service any of my sets of wheels with BERDs (4 sets so far), the should be no harder to service than any wheel really. The "warranty" in the above sets of wheels is basically pre-paying for a 2nd or more set of rims, whether you use them or not (and sometimes these warranties have exceptions of course...)

FWIW, I weigh about the same, also in the Northeast, on a 2020 SJ Evo pro, with DT180/BTLOS/Berd wheels.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

If I was getting some Berds built, I'd specifically request they put the valve stem between parallel spokes. Just a tip for you guys.


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## iLuveKetchup (Dec 21, 2020)

pedal-man said:


> I will let you know how the warranty process goes after I get mine back. I just sent mine off on 1/03/22 for a dented carbon rim on the bead edge riding National/Telegraph on SoMo...ooops.


Curious, are you running tire inserts? I know it sounds silly adding weight to a light weight wheel set up, but I've ordered TR30s (late Nov '21) and plan on running some kind of insert. Whether it's the Cushcore, CC XC, or another brand. I've dented all the aluminum rear wheels I've run and want to protect the TR30s.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

> CX-rays are listed at 4.4g and Super CX-rays at 3.75g. So a 28/28 wheelset with half super CX ray and half regular would have about 228g of spokes, or 128g with berd. Along with any difference in weight for rim tape.


Berd's own chart shows only a slight increase in strength compared to the CX-rays which surprised me. 

I have a history of spokes breaking and have moved to 2.0 (non-butted) spokes on my rear wheel (28h) to avoid this. On my front I can't complain as its a Roval 24h wheel I expect those spokes to be a bit stressed, and have replaced them with 2.0 or 1.8 when they break. 

Will CX-ray's really hold up on Enduro based mountain bike wheels ?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Preston67 said:


> Berd's own chart shows only a slight increase in strength compared to the CX-rays which surprised me.
> 
> I have a history of spokes breaking and have moved to 2.0 (non-butted) spokes on my rear wheel (28h) to avoid this. On my front I can't complain as its a Roval 24h wheel I expect those spokes to be a bit stressed, and have replaced them with 2.0 or 1.8 when they break.
> 
> Will CX-ray's really hold up on Enduro based mountain bike wheels ?


A straight gauge spoke builds a weaker wheel than a butted spoke. 

I’d go with DT Aerolites over CX-Rays, though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Preston67 said:


> Will CX-ray's really hold up on Enduro based mountain bike wheels ?



Rarely for long.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

mikesee said:


> Rarely for long.


That was my experience.
One and done, no more CX-rays for me. 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

For those interested in the weight savings of Berd over Sapim, I found this on the NOBL site. Scroll towards the bottom and they show the weight differences.









Berd Spokes FAQ - NOBL Wheels


Upgrade your next set of wheels with Berd spokes, to turn your XC wheelset into a Pro marathon race wheelset. Berd spokes are made from an advanced polymer




noblwheels.com


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

While we're all geeking on the weight my primary interest in Berd spokes is that they are strong - without the huge weight penalty of a straight gauge or 1.8 standard spoke. 
As I and others have noted or experienced, the other lighter weight option spokes are more likely to break.


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## Kyle2834 (May 4, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> A straight gauge spoke builds a weaker wheel than a butted spoke.
> 
> I’d go with DT Aerolites over CX-Rays, though.
> 
> ...


For these Super CX-rays, I picked rims where the nipple holes are drilled at an angle to match the hub flange spacing in order to reduce stresses on the spoke near the nipple.



Moosedriver said:


> For those interested in the weight savings of Berd over Sapim, I found this on the NOBL site. Scroll towards the bottom and they show the weight differences.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For whatever reason Berd didn't weigh Super CX rays there. 162g for Berds, 230g for Super CX ray, 271 for CX ray.



Preston67 said:


> While we're all geeking on the weight my primary interest in Berd spokes is that they are strong - without the huge weight penalty of a straight gauge or 1.8 standard spoke.
> As I and others have noted or experienced, the other lighter weight option spokes are more likely to break.


True. I only wanted Berd for the ultimate weight savings, but I more than that I wanted to not deal with rim tape ever again.


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## Moosedriver (Jan 19, 2021)

Kyle2834 said:


> For whatever reason Berd didn't weigh Super CX rays there. 162g for Berds, 230g for Super CX ray, 271 for CX ray.


That was NOBL providing those weights, not Berd. I looked at the NOBL website and they provided the weights for the spokes that they offer on their rims. NOBL doesn’t show the Super CX as an option for whatever reason.


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

iLuveKetchup said:


> Curious, are you running tire inserts? I know it sounds silly adding weight to a light weight wheel set up, but I've ordered TR30s (late Nov '21) and plan on running some kind of insert. Whether it's the Cushcore, CC XC, or another brand. I've dented all the aluminum rear wheels I've run and want to protect the TR30s.


Nope, I hate inserts, to each there own, but I do run a thicker/heavy duty casing like a Black Diamond. 

I attribute the dent to low air pressure from an earlier ride puncture.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I didn't read through all the pages. I have a wheelset with Union Ti spokes. If I remember correctly, they were 2.6 grams each and saved 76 grams a wheel over double butted spokes. I built that wheels set up in 1996 with Bontrager Assym ceramic rims and King hubs. They're on my single speed which I ride more than my other bikes and I haven't had to touch them up. I do notice they spin up quicker than steel spokes but that's about it.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Just sort of thinking out loud here, and wondering if anyone has run a non-Berd spoke in a Berd wheelset for any length of time?

Wondering about big(ger) trips, where you're out for a week or two, and you somehow break a spoke. Not common but certainly possible.

Carrying a spare j-bend spoke and using the spoke wrench on your multi-tool is one heckuva lot easier than carrying the small handful of Berd-specific tools to replace with a Berd spoke.

If I were gonna use a j-bend steel spoke in an otherwise Berd laced wheel, I think I'd just bring a few spoke head washers to help that spoke sit better into the chamfered-for-Berd hole in the hub flange.

Would you do anything else? Maybe slip something thin between the steel spoke and the Berd it crosses to minimize the possibility of abrasion?


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Just sort of thinking out loud here, and wondering if anyone has run a non-Berd spoke in a Berd wheelset for any length of time?
> 
> Wondering about big(ger) trips, where you're out for a week or two, and you somehow break a spoke. Not common but certainly possible.
> 
> ...


Wasn't there some sort of an "emergency" spoke similar to a berd spoke years ago to use in the event of a broken steel spoke out in the wild? That would seem like a good potential temporary fix.


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

260 mm Saipm Laser ......................... 4.42 Grams each X 56 247.52 gr
260 mm Saipm CX- Ray ..................... 4.25 Grams each X 56 238.00 gr
260 mm Sapim Super CX-Ray..............3.60 Grams each X 56 201.60 gr
260 mm Berd PolyLight....................... 2.43 Grams each X 56 136.08 gr


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

The wheel won't mind


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## Kyle2834 (May 4, 2007)

tom tom said:


> 260 mm Saipm Laser ......................... 4.42 Grams each
> 260 mm Saipm CX- Ray ..................... 4.25 Grams each
> 260 mm Berd PolyLight....................... 2.43 Grams each


Not sure what your point is, but
260 mm Sapim Super CX-Ray.............. 3.6 Grams each


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Kyle2834 said:


> Not sure what your point is, but
> 260 mm Sapim Super CX-Ray.............. 3.6 Grams each


Not sure what your point is...


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## Kyle2834 (May 4, 2007)

tom tom said:


> Not sure what your point is...


It seemed like you implied there were no lightweight options closer to Berd weight


----------



## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Kyle2834 said:


> It seemed like you implied there were no lightweight options closer to Berd weight


Just posting all the numbers in one location so people can compare weight savings...


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## dundundata (May 15, 2009)

Place to buy super spokes?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

006_007 said:


> Wasn't there some sort of an "emergency" spoke similar to a berd spoke years ago to use in the event of a broken steel spoke out in the wild? That would seem like a good potential temporary fix.



Fiber Fix. I have a few of them here but IMHO they're much more of a PITA than just taking the right spoke to begin with.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I would think a spare Berd spoke might be easier to replace (and certainly to carry) then a metal spoke. Other than the one problem of holding the nipple still to thread and unthread the spoke, but if you have direct pull spokes then that's a problem you face anyway and I am thinking in a pinch that a pair of pack pliers could hold it tight enough to get some tension in it. I'm pretty sure you'd still need to remove the rotor or cassette but it would be easier to thread through then a metal spoke anyway. 

Or would you end up futzing around wit the little loop and end piece that holds the spoke in the hub ?


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

Holding the nipple wouldn’t be all that difficult. The hard part is pulling the end of the spoke back through the flange but to carry the wire to do it would weigh all of a gram or two.


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

pedal-man said:


> View attachment 1964515


Received good news...my wheel is done being replaced and will be back to me sometime next week.
Berd replaced the entire rim and a couple of spokes. Shipped back and forth for the crash replacement cost.

Clint an Boone Cycles was very helpful as well and took care of the entire warranty claim for me. That is where I purchased them from in the beginning.

Customer service at both BERD and BOONE was excellent!!


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## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> A straight gauge spoke builds a weaker wheel than a butted spoke.


It's not as simple as that. A butted spoke will protect the bends and threads of the spoke from strain variation, giving it longer life before fatique sets in. But a straigt gauge spoke is stronger when it comes to debris hitting the spokes, which often happens in the rear wheel.

Bladed spokes tend to handle debris better than round spokes, so for this reason I have often used CX-Ray or CX-Spring on trail bike wheels, it keeps the weight down, fatige life up, and they handle debris well.


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## WhiteDLite (Mar 4, 2016)

Does Berd have anyone running their spokes in the EWS or DH. I'm not as curious as to what abuse they can handle as far as breaking, I know they're stronger than their metal counterparts.

I'm more curious on what these crazy fast riders say about flexing.. Are these spokes the best for both XC and DH?


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## tom tom (Mar 3, 2007)

WhiteDLite said:


> Does Berd have anyone running their spokes in the EWS or DH. I'm not as curious as to what abuse they can handle as far as breaking, I know they're stronger than their metal counterparts.
> 
> I'm more curious on what these crazy fast riders say about flexing.. Are these spokes the best for both XC and DH?


So are you a crazy fast down hill racer?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

WhiteDLite said:


> Does Berd have anyone running their spokes in the EWS or DH. I'm not as curious as to what abuse they can handle as far as breaking, I know they're stronger than their metal counterparts.
> 
> I'm more curious on what these crazy fast riders say about flexing.. Are these spokes the best for both XC and DH?


I think it's a legitimate issue: when is the flex too much?

I'm just an average rider but when I do extreme G-outs/ berms/ and occasionally jumps I feel flex in my my rear Berd spoked wheel that I'd consider abnormal or at least different.

Not sure it hurts anything, but it's absolutely there.


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## WhiteDLite (Mar 4, 2016)

tom tom said:


> So are you a crazy fast down hill racer?


Depends who is telling the story.


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## WhiteDLite (Mar 4, 2016)

Suns_PSD said:


> I think it's a legitimate issue: when is the flex too much?
> 
> I'm just an average rider but when I do extreme G-outs/ berms/ and occasionally jumps I feel flex in my my rear Berd spoked wheel that I'd consider abnormal or at least different.
> 
> Not sure it hurts anything, but it's absolutely there.


This is good information, my closest DH park is Windrock, and just wondering about the flex. Down the rabbit hole I go.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

I think it is a pretty good question. People talk about CX Rays, Laser, Revolutions etc being too flexible, yet they don’t say the same thing about Berds which is literally a bit a string.


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## Kyle2834 (May 4, 2007)

My wheelset from EIE just arrived:

1182g for the set

DT240s, 54t, super-cx spokes, 30mm inner width (340g rims), asymmetric, no spoke holes in the rim bed so no tape needed

Would've weighed about 1130g with Berds


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Ole said:


> Bladed spokes tend to handle debris better than round spokes, so for this reason I have often used CX-Ray or CX-Spring on trail bike wheels, it keeps the weight down, fatige life up, and they handle debris well.


Huh? Are you serious? Examples?


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## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

Jayem said:


> Huh? Are you serious? Examples?


Bladed spokes of the same weight as a round spoke, will have a higher strenght middle section because of the extra forging. For Sapim you have to go up to 2.0-1.65-2.0 D-Light to surpass CX-Ray 2.0-1.5-2.0. Also, for impacts hitting the bladed section straight on the edge, they seem even better.


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## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

I noticed that using the Berd spoke calculator, you get the steel spoke lengts, as well as the adjusted lengths for the Berd spokes. Those numbers are 2-5mm more than the steel spokes, but curiously, the lower tension sides have a larger adjustment in length compared to the steel spokes. Anybody care to explain this? Is it because the lower tension spoke will stretch less over time, and thus needs to be longer from the get-go?

Example:


Front Left SpokesFront Right SpokesMetal Spoke Length
297.3 mmMetal Spoke Length
298.9 mmBerd Spoke Length
301.0mmBerd Spoke Length
303.9mmRecommended Length
301mmRecommended Length
304mmTension Balance
100 %Tension Balance
70 %


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Ole said:


> Bladed spokes of the same weight as a round spoke, will have a higher strenght middle section because of the extra forging. For Sapim you have to go up to 2.0-1.65-2.0 D-Light to surpass CX-Ray 2.0-1.5-2.0. Also, for impacts hitting the bladed section straight on the edge, they seem even better.


It’s not extra forging, the round spokes are also forged. The strength is a function of the cross section, assuming both are forged. With a flat cross section, you are much more susceptible to kinks, corrosion pits, etc., which will decrease the cross section dramatically.

For Sapim, they are full of **** and just trying to get you to buy their most expensive spokes.


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## AdamR83 (Jan 21, 2021)

Ole said:


> Is it because the lower tension spoke will stretch less over time, and thus needs to be longer from the get go?


That would make sense.


I've also only ever broken one spoke in 25 years of MTB riding. It was a CX Ray from a rock strike, and I only had that bike for about a dozen rides. All the rest of the bikes I've had used regular round spokes.


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## Kyle2834 (May 4, 2007)

Berds are cool but if we use different gauges of guitar wire we could strum our wheels like a ukelele


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

Wouldn’t we need ukulele wire for that?


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## Andrewflk (Aug 1, 2021)

My first set of carbon rims with BERD spokes, Carbon Fan rims, and I9 Hydra CL hubs were delivered yesterday.

Build quality of everything looks professional and high quality. Wheels were nicely packaged. Turnaround time was about 1-month. Couldn’t find a flaw with the BERD build or the CF rims.

I went with the CF “water drop” profile 38.5 external width, XC layup, 28H and paintless finish both front and back. They weighed in at 338g and 351g vs the spec of 360g +/- 15g. I intended on getting a heavier build for the rear, but CF assured me that the XC build would be plenty strong for my weight of 163lbs/74kg. “74kg is not worthy of any worry at all”, said Arthur from CF.

I choose the thicker rim profile because CF stated it was the strongest for the weight and I liked the idea of the 4mm rim-wall tops. I also noticed that BERD wheels and Atomik wheels with BERD spokes use a similar profile and thought they probably have good reasons. But obviously I’m just playing internet engineer.

Total weight came to 1286g including Micro Spline driver and Torque Caps without tape or valves. My current wheels are aluminum at 1900g so I’m expecting a significant change in feel.

These will ultimately go on a 2022 Top Fuel which I’m building up as lightweight trail bike that can also handle an annual marathon race or two. (Frame expected in April.)

Wish I could provide a ride report but recovering from SLAP tear surgery for two more months before I will be released to ride.

Thank you to all the forum members who shared feedback on BERD custom builds!


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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

I have a set of Berd TR27 with Industry 9 Hydra center lock, microspline I am selling. 20 miles on them. Order 2 sets at once from different sources and won’t need these. $1700. 


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

Just got a set of BTLOS XC (29-er) rims back from being built by BERD. *M-i22A* in extralight variety (250g and 261g for the rims), Extralite hyperboost 3 hubs (XD driver), 24-hole front and 28-hole rear, BERD black spokes. Total weight was 896g for the set, before tape/valves/etc.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Wow!

Don't think I've even seen 29" MTB wheels that light. Sub 900 grams. Sheesh!


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

yeah! I didn't expect them to be quite that light. I figured about 915-920g so that was a nice surprise.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

EdSawyer said:


> Just got a set of BTLOS XC (29-er) rims back from being built by BERD. *M-i22A* in extralight variety (250g and 261g for the rims), Extralite hyperboost 3 hubs (XD driver), 24-hole front and 28-hole rear, BERD black spokes. Total weight was 896g for the set, before tape/valves/etc.
> 
> View attachment 1969630


That is really light , well done!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> I think it's a legitimate issue: when is the flex too much?
> 
> I'm just an average rider but when I do extreme G-outs/ berms/ and occasionally jumps I feel flex in my my rear Berd spoked wheel that I'd consider abnormal or at least different.
> 
> Not sure it hurts anything, but it's absolutely there.



I remember you mentioning this a few months back. Did you ever get them retensioned?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

mikesee said:


> I remember you mentioning this a few months back. Did you ever get them retensioned?


My entire rear rim (my rim and hub w/ Berd spokes) was rebuilt due to a failed hub, by Berd. No spoke failures for 2 years before the hub went.

Berd seemed fascinated by the wheel telling me it was the most used & abused Berd spoked wheel they had ever gotten back. They acknowledged the spokes had stretched a bit and that many were frayed to the point that they would rather just install new ones. 

I don't own a tension meter of any sort but just squeezing the Berd spokes by hand on that wheel compared to other Berd rims (I have 6 total separate Berd spoked wheels) you could tell the spokes were a bit less taut.

Berd ended up rebuilding the entire rear rim at a very fair cost, basically cost about $40 more than what just a re-lacing was going to cost anyways. Great value and a quick turn around.

I feel less movement from that rim now but still definitely notice it from time to time (I'd guess 1x/ month it's really noticeable) but I also ride less now (more bikes and less time, plus maybe age is catching up to me a bit).

I have no complaints about my Berds or the customer service and don't see me purchasing any other spokes at all.


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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Suns_PSD said:


> Berd seemed fascinated by the wheel telling me it was the most used & abused Berd spoked wheel they had ever gotten back.


loooool. Did you send them pics of the sh&t you ride?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Suns_PSD said:


> My entire rear rim (my rim and hub w/ Berd spokes) was rebuilt due to a failed hub, by Berd. No spoke failures for 2 years before the hub went.
> 
> Berd seemed fascinated by the wheel telling me it was the most used & abused Berd spoked wheel they had ever gotten back. They acknowledged the spokes had stretched a bit and that many were frayed to the point that they would rather just install new ones.
> 
> ...




That's all good to know.

But your spokes could still be loose. Likely, actually.


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## WHALENARD (Feb 21, 2010)

Question; is it possible the UHMWPE continues to stretch indefinitely? No matter how infinitesimal... at least in relationship to their steel brethren? 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## rapsac (Sep 26, 2004)

WHALENARD said:


> Question; is it possible the UHMWPE continues to stretch indefinitely? No matter how infinitesimal... at least in relationship to their steel brethren?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


For each incremental load step (additional tensioning) they probably will. And here it is not really stretch but tension loss at equal length in time. The question is for how much and how fast (slow) this goes. Literature also mentions the influence of ambient temperature. Would be nice to have some long term test results on a test bench. Presumably Berd has this info available, but I have not seen it. A small calibration bench for spoke tension meters could be used for a limited experiment too.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

TylerVernon said:


> loooool. Did you send them pics of the sh&t you ride?


Ha, good times yah!? Sorry you had to miss today's ride.


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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

I have a set of TR27 with I9 centerlock hubs. 30 miles. Will be selling tomorrow. LMK if anyone is interested. I have tool kit from Berd too. 


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## bizango (Mar 20, 2016)

bogeydog said:


> I have a set of TR27 with I9 centerlock hubs. 30 miles. Will be selling tomorrow. LMK if anyone is interested. I have tool kit from Berd too.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You must not care for them? From your Exie build? Just curious because these obviously didn't make a very good impression but most folks that have Berd spoke wheels seem to really like them. Never tried them myself, but definitely Berd curious.


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## bogeydog (Apr 13, 2015)

bizango said:


> You must not care for them? From your Exie build? Just curious because these obviously didn't make a very good impression but most folks that have Berd spoke wheels seem to really like them. Never tried them myself, but definitely Berd curious.


Nope that isn’t the issue. I had a set of wheels on order for the Exie and couldn’t get them in time. On a fluke I could get the Berd’s so I did. Then the bad weather hit. Eventually the others arrived and I put them on. So now the Berd’s are available. The Berd’s are great. 


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Not Berd...






Interesting, tho.

-F


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Fleas said:


> Not Berd...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Weird ropey stuff_... nice.


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## AdamR83 (Jan 21, 2021)

I wondered if that might appear in here 

Feel free to ask any stuff I didn't cover / there wasn't 'room' for in the video...


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

AdamR83 said:


> I wondered if that might appear in here
> 
> Feel free to ask any stuff I didn't cover / there wasn't 'room' for in the video...


Careful with the diy spoke thing - someone had all sorts of details a few years back and berd got their knickers in a twist and went all specialized on the guy ( he was not selling the stuff to others, just built his own and published his project). I think MTBR even deleted that thread. Sad as it was really interesting to watch.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

006_007 said:


> Careful with the diy spoke thing - someone had all sorts of details a few years back and berd got their knickers in a twist and went all specialized on the guy ( he was not selling the stuff to others, just built his own and published his project). I think MTBR even deleted that thread. Sad as it was really interesting to watch.



Please stop perpetuating this myth. 

MTBR moved the thread to the DIY forum. That's it. Still there, still active.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Please stop perpetuating this myth.
> 
> MTBR moved the thread to the DIY forum. That's it. Still there, still active.


Sorry Mike, I was not aware of that relocation. I strike that myth.

They did go all specialized though.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

006_007 said:


> Sorry Mike, I was not aware of that relocation. I strike that myth.
> 
> They did go all specialized though.


No apology needed for me.

I never heard anything from/about Berd's reaction, other than unsubstantiated rumors like this one.

Besides -- 'going specialized' implies that Berd sued because someone merely used a generic term (think: "epic") that specialized had trademarked.

And, in this case, that simply didn't happen.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

mikesee said:


> No apology needed for me.
> 
> I never heard anything from/about Berd's reaction, other than unsubstantiated rumors like this one.
> 
> ...


Ya, unfortunately that thread the op heavily modified his posts after he was threatened with legal action.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

006_007 said:


> Ya, unfortunately that thread the op heavily modified his posts after he was threatened with legal action.



Can you show me where this was detailed? Where both sides agree on what happened -- or didn't?


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

mikesee said:


> Can you show me where this was detailed? Where both sides agree on what happened -- or didn't?


Not anymore, as I stated earlier the OP heavily modified his posts.......but I know what I originally had read when he started the thread.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

006_007 said:


> Not anymore, as I stated earlier the OP heavily modified his posts.......but I know what I originally had read when he started the thread.


Yep, this is exactly what I remember happening.


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## AdamR83 (Jan 21, 2021)

006_007 said:


> Careful with the diy spoke thing - someone had all sorts of details a few years back and berd got their knickers in a twist and went all specialized on the guy ( he was not selling the stuff to others, just built his own and published his project). I think MTBR even deleted that thread. Sad as it was really interesting to watch.


Thanks for the heads up! I have seen the thread (and its in the DIY / MYOG forum as said), but I'm not concerned, Berd's patent is a US one and I'm in the UK. Their postings were a major reason in me deciding to try and make my own rather than buy theirs, it displayed a poor attitude and response to what was clearly a DIY / one off project.


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

mikesee said:


> Rarely for long.


hmm, I’m not an enduro racer for sure, but do weigh ~188lb.

Is your experience Berd spokes are fussy??

I was just about to order some spokes to rebuild my (outrageously stiff) Bontrager CF wheelset. Hoping polymer spokes could build in a little give.

thanks!


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## AdamR83 (Jan 21, 2021)

They will build in some give, for sure.

Solid UHMWPE has a modulus of ~100GPa. I measured the modulus of one of 'mine' at 81GPa - I anticipate this is due to the braided construction. A typical stainless spoke is more like 200-210GPa.

Obviously cross sectional area has to be considered, but with an average butted steel spoke at 1.8mm, and the Berd stuff the same size, that gives you ~2.5 times more flex with Berd. I'm unsure how they can claim no loss in stiffness.


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## HEMIjer (Jul 17, 2008)

Finally took the Berd bait and my TR27s are somewhere with UPS for the next couple days. At first will be running them on my SuperCal with XR2 2.2 rear and Rekon 2.25 front. Should be great for XC ish and even some trail when speed will be the goal. I think they will be great for long gravel climbings days with some chunk added inoccasionally also especially when have some washed out loose stuff. Review will come.

Who else running the TR27s and what tires you runnning for what purpose?


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

HEMIjer said:


> Finally took the Berd bait and my TR27s are somewhere with UPS for the next couple days. At first will be running them on my SuperCal with XR2 2.2 rear and Rekon 2.25 front. Should be great for XC ish and even some trail when speed will be the goal. I think they will be great for long gravel days occasionally alos especially when have some washed out loose stuff. Review will come.
> 
> Who else running the TR27s and what tires you runnning for what purpose?



Gravel?🤣. I run them on DH trails that are usually shuttled by most people. No worries smashing the living crap out of them. I asked Berd if a custom build different rims would be required and they said they had good success with riders using them for same purposes and no worries. I run 2.4 tires and obviously heavier casings and enough air to prevent rim strikes.


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## HEMIjer (Jul 17, 2008)

shakazulu12 said:


> Gravel?🤣. I run them on DH trails that are usually shuttled by most people. No worries smashing the living crap out of them. I asked Berd if a custom build different rims would be required and they said they had good success with riders using them for stage same purposes and no worries.


Ha ha I should have been clearer they will get plenty chunk as well, but some races I do have long ling gravel climbs as well. What tires you running on the 27s. I have a had good luck anyone where from 2.2 to 2.4 on i27s in past.


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## shakazulu12 (Jul 14, 2015)

At the moment, one set is mounted with DH34’s and the other set with Wild Enduros. I prefer 2.4 tires. Just feel more direct and in control to me.


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## Toddzilla (Nov 27, 2016)

I picked up a set of berd TR27s a few weeks ago and put them on my epic evo replacing a set of Roval traverse SLs.

I went from 2.4 Aspens to a 2.6 Rekon / 2.35 Rekon race setup and the bike still lost about 300g of weight. 

I’ve got about 45 miles on the bike since swapping wheels and the difference is significant. 

First off, the increase in comfort is huge, it smooths out small chatter immensely, but I still feel the lateral stiffness is great. 

Acceleration and speed is also notably improved. 

Basically, the bike is both much quicker and much more comfortable.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

steadite said:


> Is your experience Berd spokes are fussy??



Sorry, I didn't get this notification when you posted.

For the builder? Oh god yes. They take _hours_ longer to lace/tension/stress relieve than a steel spoked wheel.

For the rider? Depends on the rider. Most people don't notice a thing. If you case a landing, eat a bag o' shite such that your bike goes whipping out through the trees, or stuff your front wheel and send your bike cartwheeling down a slope without you, then yeah -- they're a little fiddly.

All of which is to say that Berd spokes require a few non-standard (but easily found) tools to true or retension. NBD.


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

Had Berd build me a set. BTLOS iw30as rims ~450-460g, DT Swiss 350 rear hub and Hope Pro 4 front hub (easy to convert between 15 and 20mm).
With 32 spokes front and rear 1650g with rim strips and valves - these will be used for a crap ton of PNW trail riding and Enduro racing. 

I am not generally too hard on wheels (since I float like a butterfly) so didn't feel I needed to go burlier as these were replacing a set of Roval carbon wheels that have been around since 2015.
This Roval wheelset also only weighed 1650g, but that was because the rims were a bit lighter and the spoke count was only 24/28. 
My main problem was breaking 2-3 spokes a season which is just kind of a pain in the butt, and with such a low spoke count it would sap your confidence for getting rowdy the rest of the ride. Same story if you suddenly find a loose spoke which couldn't be tightened on trail since they were straight pull and usually required a holding tool or they just twist.

So after doing the math I knew the wheels wouldn't be lighter, but my goal was to have boost hubs (no more adapters plus better spoke angle ?) , and improve robustness and strength. IOW I hope these spokes don't break on me, and if they do I don't have to sweat it as much running 32 spokes, and that the (slightly) heavier more modern rims will be even that much stronger.

After riding them, I totally noticed the compliance and smoother ride. I don't want to over emphasize this, its not a game changer, I wouldn't recommend you spend $700 lacing your wheels with berd spokes just for a slightly smoother ride, but It is noticeable and I do like it. 

I first started thinking about new wheels over a year ago. Bought hubs last Summer in case I couldn't find them later, ordered the rims Jan18 and received them Mar 18 (including 3 weeks waiting for customs and UPS), then sent them to Berd who turned them around in 11 days I was impressed with that. Really good buying experience no drama everything documented etc.


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## HEMIjer (Jul 17, 2008)

Supercal with the Berds been money for mixed riding!


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## cletuslol (Sep 18, 2020)

So for those who ordered direct from Berd, did you use/know of any discounts on the wheelsets? 

Any need to retension the wheels after a few months?


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

cletuslol said:


> So for those who ordered direct from Berd, did you use/know of any discounts on the wheelsets?
> 
> Any need to retension the wheels after a few months?


IDK of any discounts. I got mine on sale over a year ago. I have not felt any need to re-tension since I bought them. I think I have about 1200 miles of riding on dirt on them in Utah.


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## utmtbrider (Dec 8, 2020)

Well… after maybe my tenth ride on the xc22 rims the rear one didn’t handle a rock strike too well!


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

utmtbrider said:


> Well… after maybe my tenth ride on the xc22 rims the rear one didn’t handle a rock strike too well!
> View attachment 1983536



You expected something different?


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## utmtbrider (Dec 8, 2020)

mikesee said:


> You expected something different?


Not really, I thought carbon rims would hold up to the same abuse my aluminum rims do though.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

Seems like that’s a XC race day wheel set, esp in Utah. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

cletuslol said:


> So for those who ordered direct from Berd, did you use/know of any discounts on the wheelsets?
> 
> Any need to retension the wheels after a few months?


I've got 3+ years of pummeling in on a wheel set and no retension needed so far other than one front spoke that frayed a bit after a solid rock hit long ago.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

asymmetric and Symmetric rims for berd spokes?? does it matter?? 

I have emailed them but have not herd back, although its only been 24 hrs Lol. 

thanks


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## Velodonata (May 12, 2018)

Dave Mac said:


> asymmetric and Symmetric rims for berd spokes?? does it matter??
> 
> I have emailed them but have not herd back, although its only been 24 hrs Lol.
> 
> thanks


Doesn't matter. I'm running offset carbon, zero issues. Best wheelset I've ever had, a couple of years on them, never needed anything.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

Sapim Aluminum Polyax Double Square Secure Lock nipples is what berd recommends,

but reading up on things it seems a lot of wheel builders prefer brass even with a weight penalty. Although the saim has great reviews also, and seems to be a step above most of the other aluminum nipples. 

Thinking I most likely will go with what Bers recommends, but wanted to just check in here to see what others thought on the subject as this is all new to me. Any education would be greatly appreciated, this is my first custom-built wheelset, so trying to goof it up 


thanks


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

I have 4 sets of wheels built by BERD and used their nipples, so far so good. Also, some are symmetric rims and some asym, BERD is happy to build with either from my experience. I think all else being equal, asym offers some advantages over symmetric.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Because data:


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## AdamR83 (Jan 21, 2021)

Wondered how long this would take to appear!

If anyone wants to know more (a fair bit of significant detail was left out of the video to avoid it becoming too nerd-heavy...!), shout up.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

AdamR83 said:


> Wondered how long this would take to appear!
> 
> If anyone wants to know more (a fair bit of significant detail was left out of the video to avoid it becoming too nerd-heavy...!), shout up.



Somehow, I got a million times more out of that vid than I did from this thread.


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## cletuslol (Sep 18, 2020)




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## yourrealdad (May 17, 2012)

Video was super informative and I guess what I took away was that the berds are as strong as unnamed metal spoke (unless I missed what spoke they compared not to), but will have some flex too them, but your rim might offset that and probably not an issue.

Buddy won a gift card to Berd, but didn’t want to use them so I traded a rim for it. They should be building up a nice set of 35mm deep road wheels that should come out to around 1070g. Pretty excited for the wheelset.


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## chadbrochills (Aug 9, 2018)

I've been intrigued since first seeing these a while back. Contacted Berd, $625 for them to relace my current wheels/hubs. So tempted.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

chadbrochills said:


> I've been intrigued since first seeing these a while back. Contacted Berd, $625 for them to relace my current wheels/hubs. So tempted.


Do it, I just mailed them rims and hubs at the first of the week, looks like they are about 5 weeks out, wish I would have done it a while back.


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## TazMini (Jun 21, 2019)

If anyone curious in trying Berd laced wheels, I have a set FS on PinkBike. Thinned the herd and don’t need my Nox/i+/Berd 27.5+ setup anymore. Kept 2 other Berd sets.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## yourrealdad (May 17, 2012)

Got me wheels back from Berd. Much quicker than 5 weeks. Yeah they are road wheels, but thought I would show them off. Total for the set was 1,077g. Making them deeper, wider, more spokes, and $1,400-1,600 cheaper than the new releases that just came out from Roval and Enve.


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## EdSawyer (Mar 20, 2020)

what was the rim/hub combo on that road set?


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## yourrealdad (May 17, 2012)

Hubs: $625 Extralite SPD3 24 hole. 207g for the set.
Rims: $415 Farsports Feder 35mm hooked 21/27 width

could have gone hookless and wheels would have come in at right around 1,000g


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Last night a 1.5" thick broken branch popped up and in to my front Berd spoked wheel on my Spur, it made a terrible string instrument sound, not unlike my daughter practicing guitar. No damage at all.


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## preda_0 (Feb 18, 2012)

Do you use some kind of nail polish or other adhesives for restaurating a partially damaged spoke like this?


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## acer66 (Oct 13, 2010)

preda_0 said:


> Do you use some kind of nail polish or other adhesives for restaurating a partially damaged spoke like this?
> 
> 
> View attachment 1987746


How did that happen?


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## preda_0 (Feb 18, 2012)

I fell on one side probably on some branches
No rocks as i recall


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## kpdemello (May 3, 2010)

Why not just replace it? Quick google shows an individual spoke only costs $8.


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## preda_0 (Feb 18, 2012)

This is a pi rope spoke
The guys told me not to worry about the spoke
Eventually to put some adhesive
But i used their product









PI ROPE Protective- and Care Product for Textile Spokes - Black Premi, 4,95 €


PI ROPE Protection and Care Products for Textile Spokes - Black Premium | 10ml The spokes of the PI ROPE wheels are made of a special Vectran textile braid




r2-bike.com


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## foggnm (Aug 17, 2015)

1680g w tape and valves, i9 1/1, 29", DT xm481


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

Kind of quiet in here. I've been rolling my BERDS for a while now...almost a year. Good schtuff


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I've been running mine since April - no complaints whatsoever, other than they tend to hold onto mud more than metal spokes. They also get a little frayed in appearance just such that you kind of worry about them long term but the consensus seems to be that they are fine that's just how they look (Note that no one even notices I have special spokes unless I tell them, its not some obvious cosmetic flaw, just when you examine them closely). 

Haven't had to touch up the tension or true the wheels or anything and the first season I've ever had where I didn't randomly break at least one spoke. 

I did pick up a horrific brake howl/resonance/vibration at some point this Summer, and my first thought was the spokes were to blame - until I tried my old wheel and had the exact same noise. 
I feel like I"m going to be happy with this wheelset for a good long time.


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## Dave Mac (Jan 9, 2017)

1197 grams got them in July so far they are great and look cool to I really like the carbon ti hubs Suns-PSD recommended


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Dave Mac said:


> 1197 grams got them in July so far they are great and look cool to I really like the carbon ti hubs Suns-PSD recommended
> View attachment 1999420




Pictures of parts on scales count _against_ credibility.

Pictures of dirty bikes on trails on the other hand...


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## Preston67 (Mar 20, 2008)

I high sided off the trail last weekend and the bike came tumbling down on top of me. The front wheel came down on a rotten stump (~3+" in diameter) and a spoke sliced down 2" into the stump.
I couldn't tug the wheel off of it until I lifted and rotated the whole bike about 15 degrees and it still took a good tug. Now out here in the PNW an old rotten stump of that size is pretty soft, but experience tells me that while a metal spoke would not have broken, it almost certainly would now have a kink/bend or stress point in the spoke. The Berd spoke looks and feels fine and the wheel is fine. 

Pretty happy about that as well as that this is the first season I've ever had where I didn't have 1 or 2 random spoke breakages


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## Kirsa (Jul 5, 2011)

I am interested in wheels with Berd spokes but I live in Europe. What are my options?


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## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

Kirsa said:


> I am interested in wheels with Berd spokes but I live in Europe. What are my options?


Shoot an email to [email protected]


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## preda_0 (Feb 18, 2012)

Or you can consider the pi rope wheelset alternative


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## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

preda_0 said:


> Or you can consider the pi rope wheelset alternative


True, but then your hub choices are much more limited.


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## Kirsa (Jul 5, 2011)

preda_0 said:


> Or you can consider the pi rope wheelset alternative


Yes - I have already considered. R2-bike offers pi-rope wheelsets but only with newmen fade hubs and couple of rim choices.
And Pi Rope spokes add around 1000eur to wheelset price instead of 600 like Berd.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I suppose one cannot relace hubs that have been used with steel spokes with Berd spokes because the spoke holes are deformed. Or can it be done?


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## Jukka4130 (Jun 21, 2020)

I'd say it should be determined on an individual basis. The spoke hole preparation for Berd spokes does remove a bit of material, and could very well round out the holes more than enough. Would not see it a lost cause at all. Best to ask directly from Berd, though.


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

@mikesee I know you have said that you are DT Swiss man. Berd specifies specific Sapim nipples for their spokes. Do you use them or do you substitute them with some DT Swiss nipples?


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## arnea (Feb 21, 2010)

I was looking for closeup pictures of the spoke hole rounding process and found pretty good video by Nobl about building the Berd wheelset. Berd also has some videos, but Nobl video does better job of showing the hub preparation.


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## pedal-man (Aug 8, 2010)

Those new HAWK 30 wheel specs look amazing!! The price is also amazing, as in kind of steep, but FREE replacement is good. Tempted to buy a set.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

arnea said:


> @mikesee I know you have said that you are DT Swiss man. Berd specifies specific Sapim nipples for their spokes. Do you use them or do you substitute them with some DT Swiss nipples?



I use DT Swiss.


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