# why are manuals so hard



## dungeonsound615 (Oct 27, 2006)

I've been practicing my manuals on every ride i go and sometimes even spend 20 minutes after work just working on my manuals. For some reason the farthest i can get is 20-30 feet. 


Also did anyone have a problem with going to one side or the other while learning manuals and not completly straight.


Lastly, that feathering the brake thing seems damn near impossible, by the time i think to hit the brake im over already.


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## dpspac3 (Oct 4, 2007)

at least 20 feet is far enough to pop out of a bowl, quarter pipe, whatever, manual to the left or right, then drop back in! Just gotta keep practicing; I practice manuals even more than you, and I lose it right when I get that sweet spot, and get that weightless feeling. What about you're chainstays? Anything 425mm and below is best. Do you have a DJ/urban specific frame? Also, if you haven't already, getting a BMX bike to practice jibbing is a really good idea; they manual the easiest, are the most flickable, jibbable bikes around, and cheap too.


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## boyfromthelak (Feb 16, 2004)

its funny to hear jib and bike in the same sentence. 


manuals take lots of practice a 20-30 foot manual is decent. best advice i can give you is keep you knees and arms bent and your butt behind your rear axle. brakes arn't the only way to adjust you can also pump the bike like brakeless riders. other then that just keep practicing


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## JBsoxB (May 18, 2004)

jibbing? lol


yea i can manual for a couple hundred feet, but it's all about finding the sweet spot. try taking off the brakes and learn it that way (i just use the brake to stop if i am going fast and going over the tire)... try manualling at a faster speed (the consequences might be a little worse, but it is easier to keep it straight)


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## dpspac3 (Oct 4, 2007)

One question, tho: those that can manual at wil for long distances...could you manual, say, an XC bike with like 17" stays? I get bummed that my sasquatch is a bit long in the back(425mm chainstays), manual wise, even tho it satisfies in all other regards (especially anything involving dirt). I guess I could change out the frame for, say, a steelhead, but I like the burliness of the sas. cuz I'm in the 190 - 200 range. A mtb with a rear end with BMX feel, that does sound cool tho. Should I get a different frame?


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## JBsoxB (May 18, 2004)

it's not that hard to manual once you get the front end up.... you just have to find the balance point. You've already done the hard thing (learning how to stay near the balance point)


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## aggiebiker (Apr 18, 2006)

Maybe you just suck.




(actualy 20-30 feet is pretty decent)


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## AW_ (Jan 3, 2006)

Chainstay length... short stays are easier to manual when you are going SLOW and for precision work... but don't sell your frame and get something else thinking that is the ticket. It's all about the weight shifts. And tons of practice until you "get it". I've done some long manuals hauling ass on my dh bike... not harder just different... once again it is all about the weight shifts (and where to put your body). I never use brakes except in case of emergency or when I want to voluntarily bring the front end down. Twenty minutes of practice a day is a good place to start. Anyone can manual, it just takes time to learn. Most things worth doing are difficult at first. Don't expect to learn it in a week.


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## -.---.- (Jun 15, 2007)

20-30 feet is good dude. just don't pay attention to braking, use your body. As for thge straight line thing you gotta move the opposite directions.

You gotta remember to just drop your ankles and bend your knees. I can't even do them but I know that those are the key-points.


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## the_godfather (Jan 19, 2007)

once you can hold it at the balance point for 20-30 you really will start to pick up longer and longer manuals quicker. i've gone from being able to manual for about a car length consistently to 3-4 car lengths in a week consistently. sometimes longer. i can also now have some sort of say in which direction my bike goes in a manual instead of just veering off to one side. 
try fiddling with your bars. tilting them back or forward even a millimeter can make a big differnce


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## jake211980 (Feb 4, 2006)

I learned to use the brake, but I think it is counterproductive. Everytime I feel like I am about to loop out I tap the brake. Makes me wonder how many holy [email protected] feelings were actually the sweet spot.


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## Prime8 (Apr 19, 2004)

I always tell people that when you first feel like your going to loop out, you are almost at the sweet spot. Its farther back than 'feels' right. 
I learned on an STP, took a year. Now I manual any bike I ride. (and still have to practise, every ride)


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

dpspac3 said:


> One question, tho: those that can manual at wil for long distances...could you manual, say, an XC bike with like 17" stays? I get bummed that my sasquatch is a bit long in the back(425mm chainstays), manual wise, even tho it satisfies in all other regards (especially anything involving dirt). I guess I could change out the frame for, say, a steelhead, but I like the burliness of the sas. cuz I'm in the 190 - 200 range. A mtb with a rear end with BMX feel, that does sound cool tho. Should I get a different frame?


The sasquatch manuals fine, so does all the norco shore hardtails. You just need more practice, manuals aren't hard when you do them the right way.

Back straight, arms outstretched(they only really hold onto the bars, the do pretty much nothing else during a manual), butt down and behind the rear axle, hovering a few inches over the tire, it's all in the legs baby: Push forward(unbend the knees) and the front will go up, bend the knees and it'll go down.

Edit: Also, quit looking at your front tire, look up, further down the road, heck you could look a mile away if you'd like. Looking at your front tire just makes your head drop and brings some weight forward, not what you want in a manual.


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## derfernerf (Jun 25, 2006)

i learned by finding my sweet spot against a wall, it works pretty good. just get close to a wall (not moving at all) and pop up like your doing a manual, but let your weight go against the wall so you dont tip over, yet you can still move the front of the bike up and down to find the sweet spot. when i first did this, i went from manualing 5 feet to 30 feet after about 5-10 min.s of practicing against the wall of my house, and now i can go about a hundred feet. good luck with manuals :thumbsup:


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## tibug (Dec 5, 2006)

Looping out is so underrated. It's so much cooler to loop out and land on your feet or crash dramatically than it is to be able to manual consistently. 

I had (still have a little bit actually...) the same problem as the OP.  Whenever I remember to hit the brake, I've already kicked the bike out from under me and landed on my feet (95% of the time). My solution was to just learn to pump my legs and use stomach thrusts to keep stablity. I still loop out with relative frequence, but I also can hold a manual for ~100ft (about 1 basketball court).

Keep practicing, that's all I can say.

Tim


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## combatkimura (Jul 17, 2007)

So if I am having a hard time manualing my bike with it's 17.25" chainstays, what part of manualing a bike with say 15.5" CSs will be easier? Bigger sweet spot, easier to pull up (this isn't a prob for me), or something else? I either loop out or don't get to the sweet spot almost every time. I've hit the spot a few times and held on for the ride but it doesn't happen that often. Usually when I end up manualing for a decent distance I am in a wierd position, like with my hips way forward or something.


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## PaintPeelinPbody (Feb 3, 2004)

I've heard of people practising manuals in trainers...

I'll admit...I do it.

and I still can't do them.


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## darkzeon (Jun 15, 2006)

Does it count as a manual when you are sitting. My friend can do that slow or fast on steep to flat, and can hold the front at will. When I see him manual he always sit on his saddle. BTW, I suck at manuals, I can go long on fast descends. But very inconsistent on flats.


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

combatkimura said:


> So if I am having a hard time manualing my bike with it's 17.25" chainstays, what part of manualing a bike with say 15.5" CSs will be easier? Bigger sweet spot, easier to pull up (this isn't a prob for me), or something else? I either loop out or don't get to the sweet spot almost every time. I've hit the spot a few times and held on for the ride but it doesn't happen that often. Usually when I end up manualing for a decent distance I am in a wierd position, like with my hips way forward or something.


The bike with such long chainstays will be very very hard to pull up, but the sweet spot will seem a bit bigger. The 15.5'' chainstay bike will be very easy to pull up, but not quite as stable.

If you've only ever manualed a bike with chainstays that long, and succeeded, don't try it on a bmx, you're just asking for a broken tailbone


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

darkzeon said:


> Does it count as a manual when you are sitting. My friend can do that slow or fast on steep to flat, and can hold the front at will. When I see him manual he always sit on his saddle. BTW, I suck at manuals, I can go long on fast descends. But very inconsistent on flats.


On full suspension bikes manuals are easier to hold sitting down. If he's on a full susser that may be why. If he can't do a manual standing up then he still hasn't gotten the pumping motion down and uses the seat as a crutch by just throwing more weight back.

Btw, I sometimes sit down on manuals, but when I do it, it's to be able to do a no-footer manual.


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## PaintPeelinPbody (Feb 3, 2004)

That sweet spot is so damn hard to find, and even harder is getting the reaction of stomach/leg pumps to catch yourself before you go back or forward. Argh.


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## CripTiK (Oct 21, 2007)

I think the sweet spot is easy to find or I should say feel, the hard part is holding it there. I can always feel it as I get to it then usually loop out. So I either don't get the tire up high enough to reach the balance point or I pass right through it.


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## GatorBait (Oct 5, 2007)

Yeah I am working on them on my trek 4300 and it is frustrating as hell. I have a tough time getting to the sweet spot, but the few times I have gotten there damn it feels good, but I usually end up just brining my front end back down quick because I don't get out far enough in the back, or I don't bring up the front end high enough. I didn't realize at first doing manuals that you can manual with your front wheel at different heights you just have to position your body further back or forward depending on how high you want to bring up the front end, atleast that is what i noticed when watching videos.


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

********* said:


> Yeah I am working on them on my trek 4300 and it is frustrating as hell. I have a tough time getting to the sweet spot, but the few times I have gotten there damn it feels good, but I usually end up just brining my front end back down quick because I don't get out far enough in the back, or I don't bring up the front end high enough. I didn't realize at first doing manuals that you can manual with your front wheel at different heights you just have to position your body further back or forward depending on how high you want to bring up the front end, atleast that is what i noticed when watching videos.


It's going to be very hard on a trek 4300, and trust me, I've tried. It's doable, but you need a very short stem and high rise bars to help bring more weight back or else it'll be damn near impossible with the long stem making you bend forward.


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## A Grove (Nov 12, 2006)

jake211980 said:


> I learned to use the brake, but I think it is counterproductive. Everytime I feel like I am about to loop out I tap the brake. Makes me wonder how many holy [email protected] feelings were actually the sweet spot.


I can hold a wheelie for couple hundred yards on my moto, albeit, very different from using strictly balance, but the power is used to get up and rip it fast  that oh **** feeling its pretty much the point that you want to be at. Its the point where the slightest weight in either direction can cause you to go up, or down, right away. Once you find that spot and have been there many, many times, it doesnt feel so "oh ****!" anymore.

My manuals still aren't very good. 30' MAX! but im starting to find that balance point.


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## GatorBait (Oct 5, 2007)

snaky69 said:


> It's going to be very hard on a trek 4300, and trust me, I've tried. It's doable, but you need a very short stem and high rise bars to help bring more weight back or else it'll be damn near impossible with the long stem making you bend forward.


Yup just got back from a ride and I feel exactly what you are talking about. Snaky you are so smart


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## JBsoxB (May 18, 2004)

fyi, said sweet spot is a lot farther back than you think it is.


and i can manual my old trek 4300, so you can too


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## Prime8 (Apr 19, 2004)

no one posted a vid.. so here is a shakey vid of me in my back lane.





I noticed I can manual in a couple positions. hanging way back and low, and standing more vertical with the bike more vertical.

OMG NO HELMET!!! just to save you the trouble....


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## JBsoxB (May 18, 2004)

omg fuf the dumpster!


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

I'd rock and roll that dumpster for sho. Throw a x-up in that manual, it looks slick, give it a try!

Nice skills.


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## UrbanPounder (Feb 19, 2007)

Prime8 - Good stuff. Some in this thread were giving chainstay lengths. Could you give us the length of the one in the video? I can see myself pulling up like you in the vid while riding my full susser with a 16.5" chainstay, but my DJ with a 16.7" CS and its 4?5 lb front forks needs to be powered up from a slow roll. Not sayin I'll never get it and not sayin its all in the CS length, I just want to compare because the DJ'er is not going to come up as sweet as I seen in your vid.


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## DJskeet (Oct 19, 2007)

I have a question; for the people that can manual fairly good, did you start out with wheelies? or just go strait into practicing manualing without pedaling?


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## JBsoxB (May 18, 2004)

DJskeet said:


> did you start out with wheelies?


yes and no.

no because you need to be able to bunnyhop (that motion of pulling up the bike)

yes because after getting the balance point down on the wheelie, i knew where it was for manuals


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## combatkimura (Jul 17, 2007)

UrbanPounder said:


> Prime8 - Good stuff. Some in this thread were giving chainstay lengths. Could you give us the length of the one in the video? I can see myself pulling up like you in the vid while riding my full susser with a 16.5" chainstay, but my DJ with a 16.7" CS and its 4?5 lb front forks needs to be powered up from a slow roll. Not sayin I'll never get it and not sayin its all in the CS length, I just want to compare because the DJ'er is not going to come up as sweet as I seen in your vid.


The DJ'er will come up nice and sweet for you if you do it right. Its less of a jerky yanking motion and more of a smooth shifting of weight with a lifting/pulling of the bars. I can tell when I do this correctly because I loop out right away because the lifting of the front is so effortless. Oh, an my chainstay length is currently at 17.25" with 2" rise bars on a 50mm 0 rise stem.


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## dalton8 (Aug 15, 2007)

so, do you guys use the brakes or do you rely on your legs? cause i always have one finger on the rear brake while manualing but have only ever hit it once and it saved me so i guess it was worth it, but otherwise i just flip back. And how long did it take you guys before you could manual, say 15 meters with ease? because i don't want it to be a year. And one last thing, where do you guys place your feet on the pedals? is it more in the middle part like where you generally would for jumping? or is it more on the front ball of your feet like the clippless style?


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## UrbanPounder (Feb 19, 2007)

combatkimura said:


> The DJ'er will come up nice and sweet for you if you do it right. Its less of a jerky yanking motion and more of a smooth shifting of weight with a lifting/pulling of the bars. I can tell when I do this correctly because I loop out right away because the lifting of the front is so effortless. Oh, an my chainstay length is currently at 17.25" with 2" rise bars on a 50mm 0 rise stem.


Thanks, ya I've only had the DJ'er a few months and its heavier than any hard tail I ever owned, but they were not made for DJ either. I'll get used to it, copy prime8's lift off, and use the tips in this thread. In particular, your smooth shifting weight tip, not looking at the front wheel, ass behind the rear axle. I know where the sweet spot is and it feels allot farther back then on the full susser. I'll just keep on it till bingo.


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

dalton8 said:


> so, do you guys use the brakes or do you rely on your legs? cause i always have one finger on the rear brake while manualing but have only ever hit it once and it saved me so i guess it was worth it, but otherwise i just flip back. And how long did it take you guys before you could manual, say 15 meters with ease? because i don't want it to be a year. And one last thing, where do you guys place your feet on the pedals? is it more in the middle part like where you generally would for jumping? or is it more on the front ball of your feet like the clippless style?


I very rarily use the the rear brake, but is has saved me on the occasion.

There is no point at all to asking us how long it took us to manual, every single person is different. It may take you 3 years or 3 days, it's all up to you.

It took me about 2-3 weeks as I've previously stated, but I had a good friend and excellent manualer as a teacher, so that helped.

The ball of my feet always rests on the pedal spindle, whatever I'm doing, at all times.


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## dpspac3 (Oct 4, 2007)

one related questions regarding abubacas, or foofanoos - you use the back brakes? If I could get manuals solid, and bunny to man, then abubacas and fuuf's: then I'd be happy. I'm guessing u could do any trick brakeless, why else would guys go brakeless, but do they help with manual -related lip tricks?


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## CripTiK (Oct 21, 2007)

dalton8 said:


> And how long did it take you guys before you could manual, say 15 meters with ease? because i don't want it to be a year.


I already asked that question and you can find the answers here: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=356573 which is still on the first page.


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