# Wish list



## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

So, I'm on the verge of coming out of retirement (I'll have more info on this later). I'm looking to go way beyond just building frames. I'd like to cover frame components as well. Not sure of the vendor rules yet, so let's keep it hypothetical for now.

I currently have access to cnc mills, live tooled lathe, laser, 50 ton press brake, tig, cnc bender, solidworks.

Post up any items you "wish" were available.

I'll start...

Version 2.0 of my modular dropouts
Seat stay split coupler for belt drive
chainstay yoke
soft tail rear end kit
Seat tube sleeves
fork crowns/ dropouts

Don't be shy, but if you'd rather pm me that's good too.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

modular BB shell like 9er bikes has.
carbon seat stays big enough for 29er
clamp on cable guides like Ragley has.
belt drive cogs and rings in LOTS of sizes.

Tim


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## Monkeybike (Feb 25, 2008)

ok. .... downhill angled lugs


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## Jamenstall (May 18, 2004)

this isn't original, but i'd like to see a hooded dropout (steel and ti )that uses a maxle skewer. with a replaceable dropout.


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## tamen00 (Mar 10, 2004)

singlespeed softail rear end kit for steel frame front end

Edit with additional details:

Softail rear end with shock in front of seat tube (thanks Bobbotron thats what I meant)
pivotless BB/Chainstay/dropout to keep chain tension constant (laruta funk.Siren song style)
sliding dropouts for rohloff/SS use
optional dropouts for geared/SS/through axle/etc


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

TimT said:


> clamp on cable guides like Ragley has.


I buy them from Vertech in Taiwan.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Some of you guys need to do more research.*

A list of at least partial solutions:
Niner EBB: for sale from Niner, last I checked
Belt drive stuff: Phil Wood or Gates. Pretty much any gearing you want, for a variety of hubs/purposes.
Clamp on guides: See Warwick's post
Modular Maxle dropouts with hoods: Paragon makes these
Seat stay coupler: Paragon, S&S
Seat sleeves: Um, .058" 4130? If you can't cut off a sleeve from a piece of that, good luck making a frame...

Here's my wish list of stuff:
-PM disc tab for frames/forks.
-15mm TA dropouts for forks
-PM rear dropouts

Obviously you can make all of these, but it's a PITA. Be nice to have a weld-in and go option. I see the move to post mount and through-axles as the big challenges for small builders for the next few years.

-Walt



TimT said:


> modular BB shell like 9er bikes has.
> carbon seat stays big enough for 29er
> clamp on cable guides like Ragley has.
> belt drive cogs and rings in LOTS of sizes.
> ...


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Walt said:


> Here's my wish list of stuff:
> -PM disc tab for frames/forks.
> -15mm TA dropouts for forks
> -PM rear dropouts


+1 for those. as well as:
- PM disc tab with replaceable threaded inserts. (Think this would lower the mfg costs, plus you know someone is going to cross thread one of the tabs one day.)
- Modular fork drop outs allowing the builder / rider to switch between a QR front wheel up to a 20mm. Have some parts on the lathe now flushing out the and refining design, just waiting on the frame for added motivation.


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## bobbotron (Nov 28, 2007)

Some kind of through axle front dropout would be awesome. Edit: one with a 1 1/8" socket would be awesome.
A cantilever hanger tab for a front fork would be neat.
The soft tail kit would be great. Or something like the cannondale scalpel, where the shock is mounted somewhere past the seat tube, and there are pivot points for extra stiffness.


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## lynd (May 19, 2006)

+2 for the steal soft-tail kit.


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

SOFTBUTT said:


> this isn't original, but i'd like to see a hooded dropout (steel and ti )that uses a maxle skewer. with a replaceable dropout.


+1!


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## Feldybikes (Feb 17, 2004)

I'll add steel kit for FS rear end:

chainstay yoke with pivot
dropouts with pivots
seat stay tops with pivots
rocker/swing links
frame mounts (obviously)

Lotsa potential for making something bad if you don't know what you're doing, but it does say wish list.


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## Jamenstall (May 18, 2004)

Walt

I know Paragon makes some sweet Maxle dropouts, but I was thinking more along these lines from Jeronimo Cycles.


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## bobbotron (Nov 28, 2007)

Feldybikes said:


> I'll add steel kit for FS rear end:
> 
> chainstay yoke with pivot
> dropouts with pivots
> ...


That would be awesome.


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Gates only makes 3 chain ring sizes and Phil .......well you'll have to wait . Took them 6 weeks to make me a 26 cog for my Alfine.
As far as I know Niner only makes a EBB. I was thinking non EBB So like f I wanted to change between say Euro to BB30 just change cups.
Got a contact info for Vertech??

Tim


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## brant (Jan 6, 2004)

TimT said:


> Got a contact info for Vertech??
> 
> Tim


For small volume you're probably better just buying from CRC

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=46327
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=46326

Vertech can be found on http://www.biketaiwan.com/ - but it's not loading for me at present.


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## C Dunlop (Sep 26, 2008)

> As far as I know Niner only makes a EBB. I was thinking non EBB So like f I wanted to change between say Euro to BB30 just change cups.


FFS.

I've never built a frame in my life and only ever turned the odd spanner, but anyway... Niner make (and sell) their ebb shells as well as their biocentric ebbs. This shell fits their CYA inserts, which are basically adaptors that take the ebb from a 58mm (?) shell to an english thread, bb30, pf30, shimano pressfit etc.

you can convert an english shell to bb30 with zipp bb cups, or the bb cups from the hive, which thread into an english shell but accept a 30mm spindle.


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

73mm BSA ISCG-old , and Shimano pressfit and PF30 shells with ISCG '05 mounts in steel would be awesome.


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## shiggy (Dec 19, 1998)

C Dunlop said:


> FFS.
> 
> I've never built a frame in my life and only ever turned the odd spanner, but anyway... Niner make (and sell) their ebb shells as well as their biocentric ebbs. This shell fits their CYA inserts, which are basically adaptors that take the ebb from a 58mm (?) shell to an english thread, bb30, pf30, shimano pressfit etc.
> 
> you can convert an english shell to bb30 with zipp bb cups, or the bb cups from the hive, which thread into an english shell but accept a 30mm spindle.


The EBB insert and shell are different than the oversize shell used on th Niner AIR9 Carbon that uses inserts for everything from BB30 to traditional threaded BBs.


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## C Dunlop (Sep 26, 2008)

shiggy said:


> The EBB insert and shell are different than the oversize shell used on th Niner AIR9 Carbon that uses inserts for everything from BB30 to traditional threaded BBs.


Ok then, i'll just stop riding my bike that doesn't work. s.i.r. 9 ebb shell takes a cya insert for hollowgram cranks, now I just need some cranks. Tested with borrowed FSA bb30 cranks. In theory, the fd is designed to be used with the ebb set at 3 o'clock, which is why niner say they're not compatiable, but it's nothing a bench vice and a dremel can't resolve for the sake of stiff and light cranks.

Anyway, the point is that there is really nothing not much to be desired as far as bb shells go. A bb30 shell can be used with regular cranks, an english shell can take bb30 cranks, and niner eccentric shell can take all of them. An eccentriker or forward components BB can convert an english shell to eccentric. There really isn't a gap in the market.

Having played 'daydream custom frame', I reckon a modular dropout system similar to that on the yeti big top would be cool. Except the yeti ones look like plastic. Bolt on bits for single speed, gears, and 142mm. The dropouts that Baum used to use looked cool, but apparantly they kept breaking, so they went to using paragons.

In reality though, there already exists practical solutions to pretty much everything that I could want in an xc frame. The only reason anyone would want anything different might be aesthetics.


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

I think the idea of hooded maxle dropouts is good, but the should have a shoulder so they are 142 compatable

Matt


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

So talked to a buddy who works at my LBS which is also a Niner dealer. He can get me the inserts. Something like $75... ouch...So I learned something of the internet.....how about that..
Still would like some belt drive cogs in different sizes.
How about some slider inserts that fit a Alfine hub so you don't have to use the anti-rotation washers. I e-mail PMW and they don't make them.

Tim


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Brian,

I know you're not short of ideas yourself, but I have so many designs for various bits and bobs I'd be happy to share / co-develop with you. I know I've shown you quite a few over the years.

In terms of your initial suggestions -

Version 2.0 of my modular dropouts - _They'd have to be much, much lighter_
Seat stay split coupler for belt drive - _Paragon does it already, but Vertigo Seans is better._
chainstay yoke - _Would be nice for AM 29ers, but for which stays?_
soft tail rear end kit - _Would be neat, but low cost/reward ratio._
Seat tube sleeves - _Similar to Paragon but in steel would be very useful_
fork crowns/ dropouts - _Wouldn't bother_

Drop me an email.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

I was thinking about the modular dropouts just now, and I think in hindsight they're a bit of a novelty.

Every once and I while, you get a customer that doesn't know what they want, and in an effort to 'reassure' them, you throw up options that don't narrow down the possibilities of the bikes use now and in the future. It always adds unnecessary compromise and complexity.

With the advent of the Ground Up / Paragon sliders, customers who want the "sometimes geared, sometimes singlespeed, maybe" bike have their needs covered. These days, the sliders are seen as a better option over horizontals, and while I don't do a whole pack of frames, I don't get asked for horizontals.

So, what do removable dropouts offer? Essentially and in all practicality, it's just now an overly complex replacable derailleur hanger. It's a very small niche those that would want the ability to run horizontals, and a market not worth catering for IMHO.

So where's the opportunity?

I think in the dropout market you could improve the Paragons in a number of ways.

1. I never did quite figure out why there is a left and a right side frame portion. Make them symmetrical, halve your inventory.
2. The inserts themselves could be heavily pocketed and MUCH more classy-looking.
3. Tumble deburring is UGLY. Leave them fresh CNC'd.
4. How hard can it be to anodise the damn things?
5. Make classier, lighter inserts compatible with existing Paragon models, use as aftermarket upgrades for people with existing Paragon dropouts.

Sound like a plan?

*edit* Actually, can you make some headtube rings for the 44mm headtube first?


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## 123elizxcvbnm (Jan 24, 2010)

*Would....*

Through axle rear dropouts that slid like paragons or the surly alternator be dumb? EBB the better way to go always? A BB30, Belt, 20mm TA steel frame would probably propell me to the top of the podium.


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## blackgt (May 27, 2010)

12X142 dropouts, nothing sliding or bolted on, just simple hooded or machined from sheet stuff.

Jeremy


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

Thylacine said:


> I was thinking about the modular dropouts just now, and I think in hindsight they're a bit of a novelty.
> 
> Every once and I while, you get a customer that doesn't know what they want, and in an effort to 'reassure' them, you throw up options that don't narrow down the possibilities of the bikes use now and in the future. It always adds unnecessary compromise and complexity.
> 
> ...


Warwick - email sent

Thanks everybody. I'll start researching everything and keep you guys updated...

I may bug you individually for clarification on your requests.

Brian


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Okay Brian, 4 months on man, show us whatcha got.


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

Thylacine said:


> Okay Brian, 4 months on man, show us whatcha got.


On the spot...no eye candy just yet. I've been working behind the scenes on a ton of projects (stuff I described to you before). Good news is, it will afford me the opportunity to build whatever bike stuff I want once it's launched.

For everyone interested in the bits and pieces above, please stay tuned. I really look forward looking into each suggestion.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Yeah man, this is the bike industry! When you enter it, everyone should be presented with a big stick.

Sorry to put you on the spot. I'm a bastard like that


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

HT rings will be available from Chris King soon if they're not already. They're going to have several builder options available actually, a lot of which are pretty slick.


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

Thompson style seatpost heads in steel & ti.


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## Timo (Jan 13, 2004)

Brian - 

Good to hear from you - my wife has ridden one of your frames for about 10 years now. With those interchangeable dropouts the bike just keeps re-inventing itself. She has run it 24x24 geared and SS, 26x24 SS, 26x26 geared and SS, 29x26 SS. It is by far her most favorite bike she has ever owned and we appreciate all of the support over the years.

I've got a little something for you that could make a few bucks - an add-on to Paragon style sliders.

The adjustment bolt junction where it touches the sliding dropout itself - creates a friction zone that I think is the source of a slight noise. All of my sliders have had this issue and there is visible metal on metal deterioration here - the small threaded bolt leaves an impression on the slider.

A simple elastomeric "boot" that would slip (screw?) on the threaded bolt would a nice after market purchase. Hell, I'd pay 15 to 20$ for such a thing if it was durable. 

-Matt


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

edoz said:


> Thompson style seatpost heads in steel & ti.


You know where to get 27.2, 30.9 and 31.8 Steel and Ti tubes from? Coz I don't.


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

Thylacine said:


> You know where to get 27.2, 30.9 and 31.8 Steel and Ti tubes from? Coz I don't.


That's too bad.


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Yeah, the shame and dismay is overwhelming.


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

edoz said:


> Thompson style seatpost heads in steel & ti.


Steel would be porky. I've seen your posts re this elsewhere. Pretty easy hw to make if you have a lathe. Check out Torque titanium posts (no longer around) for an even easier, lighter, more elegant head solution that either Thomson or the IRD/USE through bolt style. Emachineshop.com can always make what you want if you can deal with their strange software quotes.

-Schmitty-


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

smudge said:


> HT rings will be available from Chris King soon if they're not already. They're going to have several builder options available actually, a lot of which are pretty slick.


What do you mean by HT rings coming from CK? Can you explain?


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Check out the CK photos from NAHBS, I'm guessing most of the bits are there.


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## 18bikes (Jan 15, 2007)

If people are interested, I'll probably be getting some thompson style heads made, here's the first prototype. Not at all porky, weighs less than a thompson. Email [email protected] if you're interested


__
https://flic.kr/p/5546978953

Matt


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## Jamenstall (May 18, 2004)

Warwick

Ti Joe has or had some 27.2 ti tubing...I would love to find some 31.6.
http://titaniumjoe.com/tubing.htm

Larry


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Man......I'm just really struggling to care about 'bespoke' seatposts or stems. They bring nothing to the table...I'm even struggling with the new Paragon stem bits.

I mean, I don't see a fit quotient to custom stems, there's no weight or performance advantage....I just don't see a point.

I think if you were an advocate of ultra compact frames and pointy-up stems like PVD there might be an advantage on some level, but your average 130g Aluminium CNC'd (or even better, 3D Net forged) stem has a very high level of refinement and value for money.

You know for me, there is something alluring and even a bit scary about the full integration that some of the Speedwagen bikes have, with non-adjustable contact points. To my mind, this is the ultimate rendition of custom where the variables have been eked out of the equation, and component choice and fit and physicality is absolute.

Conversely, this is also in some ways the antithesis of custom, where the organic nature of the simple act of riding a bike and it's long term implications and variations are ignored.

lol, maybe we need a dedicated 'stem and seatpost' thread!


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

Thylacine said:


> Man......I'm just really struggling to care about 'bespoke' seatposts or stems.


I agree totally, but I struggle with bespoke frames too, so.... products of one up mans ship egged on by 'shows' in combination with, posts at least, being fairly easy to pull off in a garage. I've heard rumor of Speedvagens having breakage issues associated with the integraetd posts, but it may be just that.. rumor.

But as I realize that I move my cyclo cross post once every three years, and even then only for re-greasing, I find myself drawn to a marginal idea like a moth to the flame.... _just once_..

-Schmitty-


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## forwardcomponents (Dec 2, 2008)

Thylacine said:


> You know where to get 27.2, 30.9 and 31.8 Steel and Ti tubes from? Coz I don't.


27.2mm tubes are available from the nearest lathe.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

*Agreed*

There are so many good stems and posts out there, in every conceivable size/shape/configuration, intended for just about any use - it makes it really hard for me to get excited about making them. I've seen lots that are competently, even beautifully done, but the bottom line is always the same - they are expensive decorations. There are probably exceptions, but I haven't seen any.

You can get a lot out of designing a frameset (ie frame and fork) for a specific set of needs - fit, handling, compatibility with various odd parts, etc. Not so much a stem. You could make some compelling arguments for handlebars, though, I think.

I mean, you wouldn't thread your own bolts from blank stock on the lathe, right? Some stuff does not benefit from being custom made - IMO stems and posts are on that list.

-Walt



Thylacine said:


> Man......I'm just really struggling to care about 'bespoke' seatposts or stems. They bring nothing to the table...I'm even struggling with the new Paragon stem bits.
> 
> I mean, I don't see a fit quotient to custom stems, there's no weight or performance advantage....I just don't see a point.
> 
> ...


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## Schmitty (Sep 7, 2008)

I think edoz is talking post heads for (fully) integrated posts.. more like a frame braze-on than a custom post.

I'm gonna start *crafting* bespoke housing ends out of found and re-purposed materials with a vintage/reclaimed lathe that has been converted to an ic engine that runs off fair trade guano collected from free range bats.

-Schmitty-


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Schmitty said:


> I agree totally, but I struggle with bespoke frames too, so.... products of one up mans ship egged on by 'shows' in combination with, posts at least, being fairly easy to pull off in a garage. I've heard rumor of Speedvagens having breakage issues associated with the integraetd posts, but it may be just that.. rumor.
> 
> But as I realize that I move my cyclo cross post once every three years, and even then only for re-greasing, I find myself drawn to a marginal idea like a moth to the flame.... _just once_..
> 
> -Schmitty-


I'm okay with bespoke frames, because I think the price of them in the US is incredibly good value for what you're getting, and there are tangible benefits. The egalitarian side of me wishes the benefits could be brought down in price point, though.

An adjustable frame, perhaps? 

The more that I revisit this thread and daydream about what I would like to see on our bikes, the more I seem to drift towards custom drawn tubing perhaps more than anything else.


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

Bump...

Version 2.0 Dropouts and Belt drive components are currently under construction. Spy shots will be posted as they are available.


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## weightweenie (Aug 18, 2011)

smaller titanium bike frame


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## Thylacine (Feb 29, 2004)

Okay Brian, I got another idea.

A 44mm ID bottom bracket would be a good idea, so we can use the same reamer for both headtubes and BB's.

Now, I haven't looked at the specs, and naturally just what the world needs is another non-standard, standard (or as I heard recently "That's the great thing about standards - there's just so many to choose from!"), but if someone could make some Aluminium BB cups for BB30 that light press fit into a 44mm bottom bracket shell, I'd think that was pretty progressive.

Can someone do the math? I can't be arsed. I'm off on Holidays tomorrow, and my brain left ahead of me.


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

Thylacine said:


> Okay Brian, I got another idea.
> 
> A 44mm ID bottom bracket would be a good idea, so we can use the same reamer for both headtubes and BB's.
> 
> ...


Yes, already working on a modular bb similar to Niners.


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## Kavik (Apr 13, 2007)

It has begun...

https://www.facebook.com/KavikBicycle


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## calstar (Mar 26, 2013)

Kavik said:


> *It has begun..*.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/KavikBicycle


Wow, what a beginning!!

Brian


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## SuspectDevice (Apr 12, 2004)

FTW is welding our 2nd pair of Kavik Legacy drops into a 650b xc bike right now!

I love these things.

Thanks Brian!


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## golden boy (Oct 29, 2008)

calstar said:


> Wow, what a beginning!!
> 
> Brian


+1 That's quite a debut!


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