# Torch Lovers dream from Lupine, Piko TL!!!



## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Three new versions of Lupines new Piko TL have been posted on their website. Their flagship of ultra compact flashlights is in the form of the Piko TL Max, 22degree.This little baby is pumping out 750 OTF lumens in a self contained package weighing just 180 grams. You get two hours run time on the highest setting and multiple program settings.

The Piko TL Ultra, has the same features as the TL Max, but a max of 550 OTF lumens in a 15degree lens, and run times a bit longer at 2:1/2 hours.I'm guessing here as information is limited,but i think with suspected programing options on the TL Max,it may be the preferred choice of the two.

The Piko TL Mini, is the weight weenie's dream. 550 OTF lumens in a 140gram package.Of coarse,the drawback is run times of just an hour on the highest setting.

I have the Wilma TL, and at just 4" and 219 grams is very small for 1100 lumes. I cant wait to get more specs on the 750 lumen Piko TL Max/Ultra/and the Mini.


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## BooBoo (May 21, 2005)

Hmmm....don't see it.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Just click on the Lupine advertisment on the upper right corner of this page and scrowl down.Cheers!!!


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I had heard that this was on the way. 750 lumens from a package that small is amazing. What's the runtime?

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Hey JohnJ80, run time on that model is two hours on the highest setting. Many more new goodies soon to come, must be patient as Lupine has just showed their new fall line up at the outdoor trade show in Germany. I keep checking around to see if anything has showed up on U-Tube etc.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

The new lights are going to be awesome. The Piko TL "flat" design will make it very pocketable. The only minor drawback I see is the battery cannot be removed and it takes a different charger than the rest of the lineup it seems. BUT at 750 lumens in this small a package it will be a screamer. 

I am looking forward to the wide beam version Wilma TL and the Betty TL information. 

These next few months are going to be expensive for me with all these new lupine choices.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Cue003, what is giving you the impression Lupine has changed to a different charger for the Piko TL series? I don't see anything so far on their website that would indicate this? Their Wilma TL flashlight is still using the universal charger.I hope that isn't the case as they have taken pride in having all their battery's and chargers interchangable.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

^^^^ The description of the new Piko TL lights calls out a specific "Piko TL charger". It doesn't use any of the names of the existing chargers like what is mentioned that comes with the package for the Wilma TL etc. 

That lead me to believe it is a different charger.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

If you check out the lupine Facebook page, there is a link to a review of the new light and also a breakdown of specs. At the bottom of the review it has a link to the lupine page for the Piko TL.


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## BooBoo (May 21, 2005)

Duh! My bad, you guys are talking about flashlights (torches.) 
It would lead one to believe the Piko headlamp will be arriving with 750 lumens.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

^^^^^^^ The Piko headlamp is supposed to be upgraded to offer an option for 750 lumens as well.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

You can't remove the battery?

J.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

It now seems that a charging adapter will be available to use the standard lupine chargers. And yes you cannot remove the battery on any of the ptl family.

Their Facebook page updated with more pics and a size comparo to an iPhone. This is going to be a super small powerhouse.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

I just had to post up again because the only web site I see that shows a picture ( sorry I don't do facebook...) is the Zyro, UK web site.

The Piko TL is a nice little package I don't doubt that. What bothers me is the price they are asking for these things which in this case is *WAY* over the top, even by Lupine standards. If they think people are going to dole out *$653 ( USD )* ( converted from Euro ) for one of these they have gone off the deep end. I personally own a mini-torch that outputs about the same, has three usable modes and runs for over an hour on high. Okay, so the TL is smaller and runs for two hours on high, whippie-do-da-ding. Once the battery is drained you are done...dead in the water. With my $35 XM-L mini torch I get small foot-print, good run times and I can ride all night depending on how many batteries I wish to carry. Yeah the quality on a Chinese made torch does not equate to a Lupine, I agree. Regardless, for the >$600 I'll save I'll carry a back up and whistle a tune on my way to the bank.

(**edit...Zyro web site lists two different prices depending on whither you convert from the Euro or GBP....which of course makes no sense... )


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

There must be a mistake Cat-man-do,i talked to Bill at Gretna a couple days ago and though it wasn't confirmed, he stated price will be same or similar to the original Piko $320usd. Lupine will have NO sales of their Piko TL, and loose customers with the price your claiming,myself included. I will look into it and hopfully get a confirmed retail from Gretna.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

indebt said:


> There must be a mistake Cat-man-do,i talked to Bill at Gretna a couple days ago and though it wasn't confirmed, he stated price will be same or similar to the original Piko $320usd. Lupine will have NO sales of their Piko TL, and loose customers with the price your claiming,myself included. I will look into it and hopfully get a confirmed retail from Gretna.


okay...would make more sense if what you say is correct.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I checked out that website Cat-man-do and also see they have the new Wilma (XML1500lumens) listed at $618 euros, or $890usd. I'm not sure if things are that inflated in the UK, but that is $300 higher than Gretna's Wilma price XPG version. The Cree XML version shouldn't be any more one would think. Just waiting on a response from Bill but looks to me that Gretna would be the best bet, and price on Lupine products. And no,, i dont work for Bill or Gretna, just a great guy to do buisiness with.Cheers!!!


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## Joe Bob (Oct 31, 2010)

Well to provide new material to your Piko price speculations:

paste this in google(.de)
"Vorstellung – Lupine Piko TL Mini, Max und Ultra Taschenlampen für’s Fahrrad "

Starting at 310 Euros. So if the 265 Euro Piko was 310 Dollars then this one might be around 360 dollars. Just a guess.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

I wonder when the LED upgrades will be released!!!!!!!!


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Hey BBW, based on past releases Gretna usually will have stock four to eight weeks after the new products show up on the Lupine website. So just guessing here, but hope to see Gretna carrying this new stuff by Septemberish.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

sound so nice.... I'm wondering about a Betty with 26 degree lens and 2600 lumens!!!! sick!!!!!
thanks!


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Cat-man-do said:


> okay...would make more sense if what you say is correct.


 Hi Cat-man-do, just recieved an email from Bill at Gretna, Not a lot of confirmed news to report, however, the mark up on Lupine products are quite a bit more in the UK than the US, now this may not be in all cases, but Gretna is the no1 Lupine distributer in North America and has chose to reduced their mark up to get these great products out there in the biking community's. I think, based on the prices i'm seeing over in you neck of the woods on Lupine products, i myself would be using other products. $655 for the Piko and a staggering $890 for the new 1500 lumen Wilma, thats just nutz!!!

In perspective, if there is no increase in the new Wilma from Gretna their retail is $595 vs the $890 in the UK, and aprox $320/$360 vs $655. I know your not a lupine fan Cat because of price, but anyone in the Uk interested in those products should just shoot Bill at Gretna an email and i'm sure he will accommodate.Cheers!!!:thumbsup:


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

I plan to buy the whole TL family from Bill over at Gretna.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I have the sickness too cue003, i mean who in their right mind needs to upgrade from 2950 lumens anyway. Well,,,,,,, that would be me now going to 4100 lumens between the Wilm/Betty. More interested in the beam options joking aside 2950 is plenty!!

Anyone hear about new battery's yet??????


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

indebt said:


> Hi Cat-man-do, just recieved an email from Bill at Gretna, Not a lot of confirmed news to report, however, the mark up on Lupine products are quite a bit more in the UK than the US, now this may not be in all cases, but Gretna is the no1 Lupine distributer in North America and has chose to reduced their mark up to get these great products out there in the biking community's. I think, based on the prices i'm seeing over in you neck of the woods on Lupine products, i myself would be using other products. $655 for the Piko and a staggering $890 for the new 1500 lumen Wilma, thats just nutz!!!
> 
> In perspective, if there is no increase in the new Wilma from Gretna their retail is $595 vs the $890 in the UK, and aprox $320/$360 vs $655. I know your not a lupine fan Cat because of price, but anyone in the Uk interested in those products should just shoot Bill at Gretna an email and i'm sure he will accommodate.Cheers!!!:thumbsup:


I talked with them too. They were going to be talking to Germany shortly - I think they got a bit surprised by all this information being released by the factory. (I'm in technical sales and this happens all the time - it's damn aggravating so I have a lot of sympathy for them). Their conjecture was that the new lights would pretty much replace the old lights at about the same price points. I don't think the Wilma TL is getting the 1500 lumen upgrade and will continue at 1100. The lumens are a bigger deal for me so that is what I would probably do. I'd think a the new Piko at 750 lumens on + the new Wilma would be a really great set up.

If that is true, then the Lupine boys are throwing one down and putting some major lumens out there a price points that are pretty interesting and start to push down hard on the competition lower down the lumen/dollar curve.

There is supposedly a new Betty on the way at something like 2600 lumens. That is crazy - it's about the same as two car headlights but this will have a 26 degree beam which I would guess is about what a set of car headlights has too. Wow.

Also of news, it looks like the batteries will start to look more like the Dinotte's and the Piko battery with a strap and a plastic case instead of a soft nylon case.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

The 1100 lumens i think is already pretty hard on the two cell battery of the TL,and pushing any more would probably spell trouble so i would also guess the Wilma TL is maxed out in it's present form.

And good call on that new Piko/new Wilma set up. At 2250 OTF lumens with German craftsmanship and in the $900 range for the set up is in my opinion an attractive combo that though expensive, is not over the top for what you get. People can now get the wide beam patern the XPG version couldn't give due to the larger XML.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

What is the beam width of the new Piko and Wilma? If wider, how much dispersal is it and how much throw?

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Beam angle of the XML Piko is 22 degrees, i don't have tech specs on the Wilma but woud estimate either 22 or 26 degree lens. With there been no change in the overall Wilma other than leds and lens that i'm aware of, the fact that with the smaller profile of the XPG's limiting the beam angle to 15 degrees due to depth limitation the larger profile of the XML would have to be a fair bit wider in those sircumstances.The larger the led the wider the beam. I'm no tech but hope that makes scents.

As for range, i think the extra lumens will give as much range as the XPG's do, but with much more spill. The guys in DIY would know for sure.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Yeah. I don't want it too much of a flood. I'm using these primarily for fast road riding. I like to have a nice spill but I don't need to look like a car headlight, if you catch my drift.

J.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

You are correct Sr. The Wilma TL will stay in 1100 Lm for what I saw in a "catalog" floating somewhere...
My big question is: the info given is a Betty with 2050/2300/2600 lm and 16/22/26 degree lens but does this mean that the 26 degree lens will put out 2600 lm? I thought that when "widening" a light with a lens, you will loose some lumens right? Unless they are different version I was thinking that the 26 degree will put out 2050 lumens and the 16 degree lens will put out 2600????? any ideas
They said that they will be using a combination of LEDs and lenses to accomplish this


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I think the 2600 lumen Betty has 16/22/26 degree options. I cant emagine the range the 16 degree will have. Dare you to out run that JohnJ80!!!!!


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I wasn't aware of the different lumen outputs however do know the Betty unlike the Wilma is using a combo of XPG and XML emitters to get their results. May be why the different lumens?


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

indebt said:


> I think the 2600 lumen Betty has 16/22/26 degree options. I cant emagine the range the 16 degree will have. Dare you to out run that JohnJ80!!!!!


That would be too intense, I think. Imagine two car headlights in a tight beam. It would be just too bright. Not to say it wouldn't be cool, but it would not be real useful I think.

I'd guess that the light flux is probably about the same for each of the beam widths. In other words, it probably looks just about as bright in the beam area for each of these.

I do like that Lupine is being pretty aggressive in this pricing. It's going to perk up the whole supplier base and get them competing for some pretty awesome lights.

J.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

indebt said:


> I wasn't aware of the different lumen outputs however do know the Betty unlike the Wilma is using a combo of XPG and XML emitters to get their results. May be why the different lumens?


that's what I read!!! makes more sense, the wider the light the more XM-L and bigger footprint and the more throw needs more XPG:skep:


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Would be pretty intense, but with the beam aimed up a bit sure would have some range wouldn't it? Yes they are been aggressive for sure, the good news is as they have been the leader in build quality,style,programming features, and output for years, is some of the other guys are stepping up their game as well and though Lupine will almost always be the most expensive, the others will realize it does take more to hand make a product with all that Lupine offers. In the end, we all win as there will be more high quality products out there in various price ranges. Trailled,Amoeba just to name a couple.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

At 2600 lumens, we're probably at the end of the lumen race. Then it's going to be about quality, features and price. This will squeeze down pretty hard on the low end since Lupine owns the top and they are moving the top prices down. Ultimately that makes it hard on people like Magicshine and some of the other bottom feeders. They won't have the space (eventually) to survive. They probably can't go much lower in price and have a lot of margin left (nor profit for R&D).

J.


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## Cat-man-do (May 16, 2004)

I keep hearing people talking about a 750 lumen version of the Piko. This is the standard helmet version if I am correct(?). This is the only set-up that has interest to me. What emitters is it going to use? What size battery, two cell? If so, what is the expected run time using the two cell battery?

About the prices over on that UK site....No biggie really. I don't live in the UK. Not to mention I'm sure different vendors charge differently anyway. Gretna is somewhere in Pa. if I'm not mistaking, likely not more than a couple hours drive from where I live.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

Cat-man-do said:


> I keep hearing people talking about a 750 lumen version of the Piko. This is the standard helmet version if I am correct(?). This is the only set-up that has interest to me. What emitters is it going to use? What size battery, two cell? If so, what is the expected run time using the two cell battery?
> 
> About the prices over on that UK site....No biggie really. I don't live in the UK. Not to mention I'm sure different vendors charge differently anyway. Gretna is somewhere in Pa. if I'm not mistaking, likely not more than a couple hours drive from where I live.


You have the Piko (3 & 6) and the Piko TL (max, ultra and mini)
The Piko 3 comes with the 2,5Ah battery for a max running time of 2h and sports a 22-degree lens. The piko 6 comes wih a 5,6Ah battery and has a running time of 4h on full (remember that dimming option extend your running time and will still give you plenty of light here!)
That Piko is 750 lumens and the TL version (torch) comes in 550 and 750 lumen
They will release new batteries with capacity indicators (1,7/ 2,7/ 5,6/ 11,2Ah) but as I can see, they will have the regular ones with no capacity indicator:thumbsup:


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you, but the Piko will have 750 lumen versions in both the TL and the standard version - my understanding from talking with Gretna.

J


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

The 750 lumen Piko is using two XML's with 22 degree optics,the 550 lumen Piko is using two XPG's 16 degree optic.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Lupine is really innovative when it comes to the most expensive products available.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Jim311 said:


> Lupine is really innovative when it comes to the most expensive products available.


But note how the most expensive is getting cheaper very fast.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

And note, to how there isn't several threads hundreds of posts long of complaining customers.


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

indebt said:


> In perspective, if there is no increase in the new Wilma from Gretna their retail is $595 vs the $890 in the UK, and aprox $320/$360 vs $655. I know your not a lupine fan Cat because of price, but anyone in the Uk interested in those products should just shoot Bill at Gretna an email and i'm sure he will accommodate.Cheers!!!:thumbsup:


I'm sure Gretna is not allowed to do that, they can only sell to US-based customers. Otherwise everyone would be ordering from them, even the Germans (OK, maybe they wouldn't), because the US prices are so much lower.

UK is (almost) always the most expensive choice, given the usual liberal exchange rate of EUR-GBP as 1:1. Funny that brits don't realize they can also order directly from Lupine so that they don't have to go through Zyro, which is not necessarily a pleasant experience...

As for the different lumens/lens combinations of the Betty, my guess is that the XM-L version can be driven so that it produces 2600 lumens, but the spottier versions don't need to be driven that hard to be visually equal to the wide lens version. Eg. the 16 degree version at ~2000 lumens would appear exactly as bright as the 26 degree version at 2600 lumens, it's just that the latter will have a wider spot. Either way, this is crazy bright, but as Lupine commented, the difference between the XPG and XML versions is barely visible in real life - so they recommend to buy another light instead of an upgrade (eg. a Piko) if you already have an XPG Betty. (Remember, the XML models come with an upgraded electronics board that is capable of producing 26W of power, so simply upgrading and XPG LED board will not yield groundshaking results...)

What we still don't know for sure is what's going to happen to the Wilma, are there going to be upgrades for older models, and when will they be available. I'm afraid even if they will sell them, new lights have priority so this will only happen later in the autumn (think October-Novemberish), therefore don't hold your breath just yet.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Aren't there some big tax/import issues with UK sales in general? 

Either way, I'd be surprised if this comes out at a price point that is much (if any) higher than what it is today for the current models. There might be some change due to USD/Euro exchange rates or something but probably that's about it.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I'm not sure about that radirpok that Gretna (has) to sell to only US based customers .And without putting Bill on the spot here, Gretna does sell outside the US, guess i just did.I do understand Lupine wouldn't want a US based retailer to cannibalize retail sales in other markets.That been said and a bit contradicting here, but as long as Lupine's whole sale pricing is the same globally i think they wouldn't care just as long as their sales were benefitting from the increased volume. I am surprised that there is such a difference in retail between the US and UK and that Lupine would not expect customers with todays internet to shop and order from who would provide the best price.

Enough about that, where did Lupine state that the difference between the XPG and new XML's had almost no visable differenceto the eye? Facebook?? If thats true it makes me question whether i'm going to do the upgrades at all. I'm surprised they would puplicly make that statement for the exact reason i just mentioned.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

indebt said:


> And note, to how there isn't several threads hundreds of posts long of complaining customers.


Maybe not but considering some of the cheapo stuff is now literally 1/20th of the price, you can afford to have a lot of them fail can't you. You won't hear any complaints from me about my Magicshine battery failures, considering I could carry around a backpack full of batteries and lightheads for what a Lupine would cost me. With the speed that LED is advancing your light will be obsolete before the year is over anyway.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Jim311 said:


> Maybe not but considering some of the cheapo stuff is now literally 1/20th of the price, you can afford to have a lot of them fail can't you. You won't hear any complaints from me about my Magicshine battery failures, considering I could carry around a backpack full of batteries and lightheads for what a Lupine would cost me. With the speed that LED is advancing your light will be obsolete before the year is over anyway.


Good plan on the backpack.

Silly me, to not realize my 3 year old obsolete light heads aren't supposed to be useful anymore. How did I miss that?

J.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

Jim311 said:


> Maybe not but considering some of the cheapo stuff is now literally 1/20th of the price, *you can afford to have a lot of them fail can't you*. You won't hear any complaints from me about my Magicshine battery failures, considering I could carry around a backpack full of batteries and lightheads for what a Lupine would cost me. With the speed that LED is advancing your light will be obsolete before the year is over anyway.


Wrong; I wouldn't like my light to fail on me when I'm by myself and with no cellphone signal. Reliability is why I'm with Lupines and BTW, my 3 year old Wilma has been going strong (no failling battery) AND I have been able to upgrade to the latest technology:thumbsup:
No problem if you want 5 spares and have to come home to switch batteries or lightheads to keep riding


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Actually, I've been exactly where you describe. Battery died, one light no backup except for cellphone display backlight and a broken chain all out in the middle of nowhere, getting eaten alive by mosquitos by the side of the farm road. 

Now I always have a backup. Cheap light? Get that backpack and a couple of extra lights and batteries - no joke. At that point, the price differences doesn't look like all that much anymore. It's really a case of pay me now or pay me later, IMHO.

So now we get in another pointless argument about reliability with people who don't think it matters, would never ever buy a high quality/reliability light but are reading this thread top to bottom anyhow and still can't understand why someone would ever pay more than $75 for an LED bike light.

Back on topic - anyone heard anything yet new about the new Piko or Wilma availability?


J.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Piko 750 lumen head is supposed to be available tomorrow. New batts and other components not till end of august.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

BBW said:


> Wrong; I wouldn't like my light to fail on me when I'm by myself and with no cellphone signal. Reliability is why I'm with Lupines and BTW, my 3 year old Wilma has been going strong (no failling battery) AND I have been able to upgrade to the latest technology:thumbsup:
> No problem if you want 5 spares and have to come home to switch batteries or lightheads to keep riding


If you ride alone in the dark without a cell phone signal no matter WHAT brand light you have you should carry a backup. If you don't, that's stupid, because even high dollar stuff fails. You ALWAYS carry a backup in those circumstances, maybe even TWO backups. But you won't, because you're content to believe that spending more money will net you complete reliability. The first time you navigate a trail with the glow from your cell phone because your Niterider crapped out on you might make you feel the same way I do.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

^^^^^ every light can fail. You are correct. Some just have a higher probability of failure than others. To some the additional cost for "higher" end lights are worth it for a longer probability before failure. Unless you live next to a shop that carries all your lighting needs there may be a delay in getting back to riding if the cheaper lights fail more often. Just a thought. There is a market for both high end and low end and also reasons that people purchase one or the other. I have purchased on both sides and while the low end stuff works it has sometimes proven frustrating at times to deal with. 

This can applied to any and everything, from your choice of bike, clothing, cars, backpacks or whatever. There is always something cheaper that you could buy. We can sit around and argue the same merits as to why you ride the bike you do or drive the car you do etc, when there are cheaper items available. Value is best determined by the person paying for the item(s).


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Jim311 said:


> If you ride alone in the dark without a cell phone signal no matter WHAT brand light you have you should carry a backup. If you don't, that's stupid, because even high dollar stuff fails. You ALWAYS carry a backup in those circumstances, maybe even TWO backups. But you won't, because you're content to believe that spending more money will net you complete reliability. The first time you navigate a trail with the glow from your cell phone because your Niterider crapped out on you might make you feel the same way I do.


... and if you buy the cheapies with poor reliability then double the number of batteries or lights.

J.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

JohnJ80 said:


> ... and if you buy the cheapies with poor reliability then double the number of batteries or lights.
> 
> J.


It depends on how much redundancy you think you need I guess. Anyway, its your wallet not mine so buy what you want, but if you are one of those people that touts reliability of the utmost importance but don't carry a backup then you are making a grave mistake that will sooner or later come back around to you. I just can't fathom that anyone could justify spending 600 or 700 dollars on a light set, you are well into diminishing returns when you get into the ultra high end of anything. I shop based upon value, and I just don't see that the value is there with these high dollar setups, but if you've got the money then value is irrelevant to you, you might demand the very best regardless of the price. But I do not.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Jim311 said:


> Maybe not but considering some of the cheapo stuff is now literally 1/20th of the price, you can afford to have a lot of them fail can't you. You won't hear any complaints from me about my Magicshine battery failures, considering I could carry around a backpack full of batteries and lightheads for what a Lupine would cost me. With the speed that LED is advancing your light will be obsolete before the year is over anyway.


 MagicShine $100,,, Piko $310 ,,, good math Jim!!!! not quite 20 times more:thumbsup:. Good for you,while your carrying a backback full of spare battery's, i'll just carry my water,because lets face it, most of us prefer to ride as to work on our failing lights.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Jim311 said:


> It depends on how much redundancy you think you need I guess. Anyway, its your wallet not mine so buy what you want, but if you are one of those people that touts reliability of the utmost importance but don't carry a backup then you are making a grave mistake that will sooner or later come back around to you. I just can't fathom that anyone could justify spending 600 or 700 dollars on a light set, you are well into diminishing returns when you get into the ultra high end of anything. I shop based upon value, and I just don't see that the value is there with these high dollar setups, but if you've got the money then value is irrelevant to you, you might demand the very best regardless of the price. But I do not.


I'm an electrical engineer in the semiconductor industry. I get reliability and I get prob and stats. I understand LEDs and batteries. I'm also trained in SAR (Search and Rescue) so I get the redundancy thing too. It makes a lot more sense to go into remote areas with high quality gear and carry a much smaller backup than it does to go there with unreliable gear. I'm also in situations where lighting is vital so I can easily fathom spending that much money on bike lights. Like I said, get stranded in a remote area as I described above and the difference doesn't seem so big anymore. Try it some time. There is a certain enlightenment (no pun intended) that helps sharpen the value of the marginal expense.

If you have no intention of buying an expensive top end light, then I'm pretty sure this thread isn't for you. We were discussing the availability and functionality of Lupine's new lights. Maybe we ought to get back to that topic and not hijack the thread.

BTW, from what I hear, the 6/29 availability date is most likely when it ships from Lupine. I don't think there will be shippable consumer inventory in place tomorrow. Keeping watch on Gretna's website is probably the ticket since they are the US master distributor for this.

What I'm understanding is that the XM's have wider beams. So Lupine is offering the higher power versions in progressively wider beams. So as the power goes up, the throw stays the same but the beam gets wider. I would think that with a 15 degree beam at 2600 lumens you'd probably burn a hole in something and would never want it to be that bright anyhow. I'd have to check,but I think a car's lights cast a beam that is about 26 degrees wide with two 1300 lumen lights. So the new Betty with the 26degree/2600 lumen configuration will probably have a beam that approximates what your car would do with two low beams. I would guess the same goes for the 750 lumen Pikos in terms of the light/beam width. I also think the 550 lumen Piko goes away and is replaced by the 750.

That does change the picture somewhat.

J.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

John, you are correct it seems. On lupines site there is only one choice as far as output for the Piko headlamp. That is now going to be set at 750/22 degrees. The 550/16 option will be available in the Piko TL mini and ultra handheld flashlight.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

Jim311 said:


> If you ride alone in the dark without a cell phone signal no matter WHAT brand light you have you should carry a backup. If you don't, that's stupid, because even high dollar stuff fails. You ALWAYS carry a backup in those circumstances, maybe even TWO backups. * But you won't, because you're content to believe that spending more money will net you complete reliability*. The first time you navigate a trail with the glow from your cell phone because your Niterider crapped out on you might make you feel the same way I do.


You are right little Jim, and that's why I have 2 Lupines  (no need for a 3rd back up either:thumbsup
PS: I'm sure you don't even ride a bicycle since a unicycle will have more value, cost less and you would be doing pretty much the same exercise right?
Also, you live in flat Florida so you would be OK with a mini maglight anyway


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Ha, to an extent you are correct on being ok with a mini mag. Most of the places I frequent when it comes to my night riding are not scenarios where I'd be totally up a creek without a paddle. Seems like these days remote and isolated trails are harder and harder to come by. I've tried riding a unicycle, can't seem to get the hang of it


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

We don't have the luxury down here in South Florida that many of you other guys have. It is flat, the "parks" close pretty much when the sun goes down and pretty much everywhere else is well lit. I haven't really found a night riding community around here. So pretty much any decent light is overkill but it doesn't matter... I am still getting the lupine.  . Moreso the TL family.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

cue003 said:


> John, you are correct it seems. On lupines site there is only one choice as far as output for the Piko headlamp. That is now going to be set at 750/22 degrees. The 550/16 option will be available in the Piko TL mini and ultra handheld flashlight.


I believe the Piko TLs are also 750 lumens and 22 degrees.

This wider/brighter thing I think is going to yield the same brightness as the pre XM LEDs but over a wider viewing angle. In other words, the number of photos per unit area will be the same but there will be more area covered.

J.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Jim311 said:


> Ha, to an extent you are correct on being ok with a mini mag. *Most of the places I frequent when it comes to my night riding are not scenarios where I'd be totally up a creek without a paddle.* Seems like these days remote and isolated trails are harder and harder to come by. I've tried riding a unicycle, can't seem to get the hang of it


Then any cheap light will do. Lupine/Dinotte/etc are not for you. That's not the discussion on this thread. We are discussing high reliability high quality lights. Another thread debating the merits of high rel-high quality vs low rel-cheap is where this belongs. That, or there are loads of Magicshine threads.

I live in a suburban area that is largely rural/farmland. Even road riding, it's easy to be 5 miles from anywhere populated. Your light dies, it gets really, really dark. There are ferocious biting bugs. Reliability and brightness are key.

I'm surprised that in this go-around, it looks like Lupine is using Apple's model:  Announce the product and provide inventory a week or two later. Hasn't it been that it's usually been quite a while after announcement before their new lights show up? My understanding is that Pikos are on their way to the US now.

J.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

cue003 said:


> We don't have the luxury down here in South Florida that many of you other guys have. It is flat, the "parks" close pretty much when the sun goes down and pretty much everywhere else is well lit. I haven't really found a night riding community around here. So pretty much any decent light is overkill but it doesn't matter... I am still getting the lupine.  . Moreso the TL family.


I was just messing with Lil' Jim. You will enjoy you Lupines for many many years; he doesn't understand the passion and feel that a light is just a light. Believe me, you will smile big time when you get those lupines in your hands:thumbsup:
Post on different local forums and you will find some people to ride at night; even night urbans are awesome!


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## Pedlin' Slow (Sep 9, 2009)

And now if we don't have the latest and greatest, our lights are obsolete?
Since when did riding at night with your friends, or by yourself, become obsolete because we didn't have the newest LED?
I feel so inadequate.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Just ordered the new Piko 750 lumen set up for my sister. Bill at Gretna has them in stock and should have the rest of the new stuff by month end.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Cool. I'm pretty interested in this as a helmet light at nearly 800 lumens. I'm wondering about the wider beam though.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Are you concerned that the wider beam won't have the throw the XPG has? My understanding is it will have the same range but of coarse more spill. Wont know for sure until real world testing. I'm sure there will be feedback soon, as their already been sold at Gretna. For $320 Lupine has kept their price the same as the first generation Piko. And critics of Lupines will still have a hard time admitting that other than the XML MS, Lupine XML Piko is well priced compared to it's compatition. Cygolite's Triden X is $300, Baja Stryker is $300, Exposure's MK2 is over $300. It's funny how those company's are not included in the dart throwing of some when it comes to Lupines prices.

For the record this is NOT a criticism towards those other company's, i'm just comparing to other high end company's with similar lumen output.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I want to have more light flux per unit area than I have now with the same throw.

I agree that Lupine is pushing down hard on those below them. This is a strong move on their part. It's a great thing for bike light consumers.

J.


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## johnyjackpot (Aug 2, 2011)

Wilma Tl is a lot of light!


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

indebt said:


> Just ordered the new Piko 750 lumen set up for my sister. Bill at Gretna has them in stock and should have the rest of the new stuff by month end.


Awesome. Looking forward to hearing the real world reviews and anxious for bill to get the rest of the new items so I can place my big order. It will be like Christmas in September with all the new lights i will be getting.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I've ordered one and it should be here this week. I need a very light weight headlamp for riding, camping and SAR. At nearly 800 lumens, this ought to be an awesome addition to my Dinotte 1200L and I'm interested to compare them. Now I need to get the new Dinotte 300R taillight and a mount for both of my bikes. 

This story unfolds further - in talking with Gretna about this, it looks like the new Wilma will also have three beam angles - 16, 22, and 26 with 26 being the 1500 lumens. 

The Piko will also come later this summer with an option for a 1.7 (or so) Ah battery, or about half the capacity of the standard 2.5Ah one. This will also have a hard case but will have a built in fuel gauge that reads in 5 steps. Apparently you will also be able to use the fuel gauge as a rudimentary tail light (not sure how well that will work). This small battery would be great for head lamp wear and would be excellent for my SAR activities where I don't need hours of run time at high bright.

There is also a Piko X duo coming with a new headband, one that allows the new smaller battery to be snapped into a special mount on it. 

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

The news just keeps getting better and better. !!!! Will upgrade to the 2600 lumen kit with the Betty and one of those battery's you mentioned with built in fuel gauge. Not sure yet on the Wilma as i do like the throw it already has and may wait to here feedback from those who upgraded to the 26/1500 lumen kit. Christmas in September,,, i'm in.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

I am very interested in that Piko x duo setup mentioned. That is what I am waiting for. As well as a betty TL, Wilma TL, Piko TL max and Piko TL mini. Like I said before.... Going to be expensive. And I echo what indebt said... Christmas in September.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Whoa there - that's a about a $2500 shopping list for bike lights. And I thought I was obsessive..... 

I mean, that's enough lumens to start a fire.

Seriously though, I think that we are getting pretty close to the lumen war being over. After that point, prices will start coming down and feature sets will go up. I would think this is where a lot of the market bottom feeders will get crowded out.

J.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

^^^ Obsessive might be putting it mildly. haha 

The mass exodus of existing lights, headlamps, and other closet items that haven't been used have been going on for about a month now in anticipation of the Lupine releases. We shall see where I end up when the dust settles. Hopefully I won't have to come out of pocket any money above and beyond the money received for the items I sold. 

On all the lights, I think the 22 degree is the sweet spot. Except for the Betty TL which if going to be used strictly as a flashlight, then 26 degrees and max lumens all the way. The standard betty TL is too long and heavy to use the handlebar mount unless you have the smaller Wilma TL battery to put on your Betty TL head.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Mildly is right. I'm thinking of twelve step program here...

There is so much variance in definition. Looking at my Dinotte 1200L, which has a very wide beam, I'd say it's at about 40-45 degrees to the hard edge of the beam where it goes from bright to "moon glow". If that is correct, then the 22 degree from Lupine will be a lot narrower. I'll have to give that some thought - there are advantages to each.

j.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

beam width in degrees refers to the width at 1/2 intensity (FHWM?), so that 45deg would correspond to about 22deg. All slightly arms waving in the air figures, but it should give a rough idea.

new Piko sounds awesome too


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Well, did anyone get their 750 lumen Piko yet? I'm anxious to see how it works and to hear about the beam quality.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Not yet John, wont be of much use for feedback either as it is been sent to my sister 3000 miles away. Am anxious though to find out if the throw is as good as the xpg's. Hopefully the extra lumens helps that out.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Bummer. I get mine on Monday. I'll post something when I get a chance to fire it up. I'll also compare it to my Dinotte 1200L (not the 1200L+). The Dinotte 1200L, if you go by Francois's numbers should be about 800 lumens so they should be similar but I expect the Lupine to be narrower.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

If i remember correctly the lux measurement Francois had on the 1200L was 81. I dont see the new Piko been much higher than mid 60's as the xpg Piko was 45 lux. I think your 1200L will be to much for the Piko John.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Yes, but the Wilma (1100 lumens) was about 103 (or so). 81/103 * 1100 = 865 lumens in Lupine lumens for the Dinnotte 1200L. That means that the Piko is only about 100 lumens less and with the tighter beam, should be about the same (13-14% different). That's not much difference given the size and with both of them should be roughly twice the light that I have now.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Your numbers do make sense and if it translates into real world visual, this will be one little beast. Projected lux measurement should be closer to 70 in that case. Still hard for me to fathom that kind of output from 55 grams though. Cheers!!!


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I know, that's what's got me going too. 750 lumens from something that small is really something. Oh well, until it arrives tomorrow....

j.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Ok, I got this thing and gave it a try.

Some comments:

1. This thing is tiny - both head and battery. The head is about two widths of my thumb across and it is hardly even noticeable when mounted on the bars (I got the rubber strap mount which is brilliant and I'd think better than the metal mount for your bars). The battery is barely wider than the top tube of my cross bike that doesn't have oversized diameter tubes. It sort of disappears. Don't know of any other battery that does that.

2. The quality is approximately similar to the Dinnotte lights I have. Both are excellent.

3. The beam is slightly more narrow than the Dinnotte 1200L and I'd say about 20-25% dimmer but it would be completely usable as a single light for pretty much anything. I use it for road biking and I'd have no problem with speeds <30mph with a single Piko.

4. There are some slight artifacts around the main beam in the "moon glow" portion of the beam.

I'd think that this and a 1200L would be a great combination as well as with a 1200L+ or the new 26 degree Wilma @ 1500 lumens.

What I'm also thinking would be a killer combination is two bar mounted Pikos with a Y-cable (does Lupine even make one?). With the rubber strap bar mount, you get horizontal adjustment and vertical adjustment. You could aim the two to maximize the beam to your liking.

Anyhow, a great light. I really like the smallness in both light head and battery. Lots of capability in this little guy. Definitely a throwdown challenge to the other light manufacturers at this price point. That's a lot of light for $310.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Good to hear you got your light already. No word yet on the arrival of my sisters Piko,may take a little longer to get to Kona. Your review is what i was expecting and hoping to hear John. I have had the XPG Piko in my hands and couldn't believe the output then from such a tiny unit and suspect the XML is as bright but a wider beam of light. I will be able to have a good perspective on the two versions when my sister visits next month to do some night riding here, and i get to see the beam pattern myself to compare. You hit the nail on the head that as a helmet light the Piko would be a smoking half of a combo with the new Wilma 26degree on the bars. Would also go well with both the Dinotte 1200L and 1200+.

Have you found a vertical hotspot for the Piko yet that best suits and maximizes its potential? To high and you loose brightness, to low and it's really bright but no range. And if so what is you guess on usable range?


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

There really isn't a vertical hot spot per se. I think that is because the beam is wider. Think of it as a cone of light that is intersecting the road when it hit that part of the cone. I found the light fairly even across but narrower (but ok by itself) than the 1200L.

I may go for the wide and bright wilma but I may also go for a just a second Piko. That would be kind of interesting too.

Do you know if Lupine has a Y-cable?

For mounts, I think I'd recommend the rubber strap version. The screw/lever version on that narrow surface looks to me like a great way to damage a handlebar, especially a carbon bar.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I dont believe Lupine has a Y cable, not sure if it messes with the voltage to run two head units off a single battery. That been said Geoman i think may have one that will work with their open light battery's for Lupines.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

JJ, you have any picts of the Piko. Maybe a picture of it in your hand so I can see how small it really is.


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

Straight from Lupine  The first is the "mini" version with 550 lumens, the "max" is about half an inch longer.
The second is the "max", with 750 lumens.

They don't have a Y-cable exactly for the reason indebt mentioned: they used to have one for halogen lights, but the drivers of the lampheads of LED lights would not work, they would perturb each other somehow.

I'm sad to hear about the artifacts, I was hoping for a better lens for the XM-L.... still, I'm going to get the Wilma upgrade.


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## mb323323 (Aug 1, 2006)

Wow, nice small pkg.

Couldn't locate the specs on their site. Prolly me being dumb but what is the weight and can you take a pict of it on your helmet when you have a chance. Is the run time 2 hrs on 750 lumens?

Thx


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

The Piko TL, and Piko3 both have a total weight of 180 grams.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Horrible pictures but you get the idea of size.

Front:









Side:









I typically wear a medium in biking gloves so I don't have large hands. Either way, the thing is tiny.

J.


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## langen (May 21, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> That's a lot of light for $310.
> 
> J.


Thanks for the write-up! Where did you buy it if I may ask?


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

I think JJ is off the grid The only one with stock and where John purchased was Gretna Bikes. Ask for Bill.Cheers!!!


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

langen said:


> Thanks for the write-up! Where did you buy it if I may ask?


Gretna Bikes. I had lots of annoying questions, and they took plenty of time to answer them. Good guys.

FWIW, I'd also recommend that one get the mount that is shown in the (horrid) pictures I posted. That's a great mount.

J.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

Glad that you like it John! tiny sucker for sure!
Indebt, I wil be very interested in your opinion when you get the new version. Would love to hear about the color rendition compared to the XPG (Usually XML is warmer)
Cheers!


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Hey BBW, as long as i don't see any greenish hue many photos of XML's i've seen have had. I do love the color rendition from the XPG's Lupine uses as i feel it complements the lumens very well. For me in the past i've found lumen claims from warmer tints have looked less bright to my eyes. I'm expecting the same brightness as the xpg and hoping the same throw but with much more spill.


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## Joe Bob (Oct 31, 2010)

Hey JohnJ80,

how did you get the Piko on that rubber mount ? thought the screw in the back was to keep the housing sealed and not really to be openend. did gretna recommend this ?

regarding the color rendition. got both piko 750 and betty 22 and i found it to be pretty much the same tint. maybe the piko is a little more blueish. only noticeable if you are looking for a difference.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Man, even I have to admit, that Piko (and the all in one unit) are both pretty bad ass, totally compact. How does the all in one unit mount to the helmet or bars?


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Joe Bob said:


> Hey JohnJ80,
> 
> how did you get the Piko on that rubber mount ? thought the screw in the back was to keep the housing sealed and not really to be openend. did gretna recommend this ?
> 
> regarding the color rendition. got both piko 750 and betty 22 and i found it to be pretty much the same tint. maybe the piko is a little more blueish. only noticeable if you are looking for a difference.


It's right on their website:
Piko-Class Lupine Classic band mount - GRETNA BIKES.com LLC, LUPINE North America

It says "Piko Class" mount. There is an allen screw in the bottom of the Piko light that has no other purpose except to accept this mount. If you use this, and you get the classic head strap, then you can go from head strap to handlebar without any screws (for example).

J.


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## Joe Bob (Oct 31, 2010)

Thanks John ! :thumbsup: Somehow I didn't notice...

@Jim: For a picture check out the Lupine Facebook page


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## Aussie LuvR (Nov 17, 2010)

I thought XML leds were suppose to output approx 1000 lumens max. 

So why only 750 lumens for the Piko? I thought that a 2 xml setup like the Piko would easily give up to 1500 lumens, yet the Piko is rated at only 750 lumens.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

You're kidding right? The thing would melt down. It's tiny and you'd need more heat sink than that.

Lupine's lumens are out the front lumens, not theoretical based on the LED datasheet. 

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

JJ is bang on AussieLuvR, yes those XML's will produce 800 to 1000 OTF lumens each. You would need a larger lamp head well finned and even then you would only get full output at speeds high enough to stop the thermal protection curcuit from powering down the leds. I think this was an economical way for Lupine to upgrade their existing Piko, and keep pricing very competative.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

For example, I was doing more testing with my Piko and my Dinotte 1200L. According to Francois shoot out, the Dinotte 1200L came in at about 81 lux. By my calculations and comparing to how Lupine measures and what Francois got with the Wilma (1100 lumens out the front), the new Piko and the Dinotte 1200L should be about the same or ~750-800 lumens. Dinotte in designating it as a 1200 is probably very accurate in the light leaving the LEDs. Lupine measures it after all the losses in reflection and the lenses and comes out with 750 lumens. So they are about the same.

There are also those that take the theoretical maximum of the LEDs at that drive current, put low grade lenses or poor reflectors behind them and turn a pie in the sky 1200 into probably 550-600 out the front on a good day, maybe slightly better. These would be the knock off guys.

As I was fooling around further tonight, I'd have to say that that is very much the case - Dinotte 1200 is approximately equal to the new PIko - very close. The new Piko and the 1200L are approximately the same amount of light for all intents and purposes but the Piko has a more spread out center (two leds laterally mounted) vs the 1200L that is a pattern of 6 in a circle configuration with one in the middle. The 1200 has a more intense center and a wider but dimmer beam. The Piko has a lateral beam about 30 degrees wide that gets dim quickly outside of that. But, overall, about the same throw, about the same light output. I think for cycling, the lateral beam is ultimately the best choice. No sense in sending all that light up and away.

This has me thinking quite hard that a dual Piko system with two on the bars or one on the bars one on the head might be a real trick set up. Literally, with two set up like that, it looks like a slightly dimmer version of a car headlight - it lights up the whole lane of the road very evenly. That's 1500 lumens in a lateral beam. Would be pretty nice, I think.

Hmmm. What do do?

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

John, i want to thank you for all the feedback on your new toy. It's a real complement to Lupine for you to consider the piko close to the Dinotte's 1200L output. The size differential between the two is crazy. I remember a while back when the 1200+ came out, and someone posted some good photo's of the beam comparison between the 1200L/1200+. What i remember is the 1200L looked to have a signifcant edge on throw and for you to claim similar throw with the Piko says alot from the little beast.

A duel Piko setup would be very nice John, and not break the bank. You then would have the luxury of configuring them anyway you wanted: Bar/Bar or Bar/Helmet,whatever your mood that day. Of coarse a Wilma/Piko setup would be on another level, Hmmm!!


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm wondering if the beam of the Wilma is more round and not so as much lateral. Is it possible that the beam of the Piko is better because of the LED placement?

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

It's a tough call without real worl comparisons between them, basically you would be splitting the Wilma in half and yes spreading the beam horizontally across the bars. With the 1500 lumen/26 degree optic you probably will accomplish the same thing as spreading out two Piko's on your bars. I think a 26 degree Wilma on your bars and your Piko on your lid woul be equal to three Piko's anyway. If you do any mountain biking, i'd go for the Wilma!!!!


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Forgot to mention, i had a TridenX with three horizontal leds and i have to say i loved the beam. I know,,,,, i'm all over the place John, probably time for me to shut up.


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## langen (May 21, 2005)

JohnJ80 said:


> Gretna Bikes. I had lots of annoying questions, and they took plenty of time to answer them. Good guys.
> 
> FWIW, I'd also recommend that one get the mount that is shown in the (horrid) pictures I posted. That's a great mount.
> 
> J.


Thanks!


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## Aussie LuvR (Nov 17, 2010)

So why would I want a Piko at 750 lumens when I can get Scar's new Amoeba XML rated at 1600 lumens. Granted there most likely will some loss, but certainly better than 750 lumens.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Size, support, accessories, battery options, system compatibility etc..

I'd like to see that Amoeba rated using Francois system - it's the only thing out there that allows lights to be compared apples to apples in terms of performance.

FWIW, the according to digilloyd, the Piko is rated theoretical at something like 1200 lumens and OTL it is at 750. That would imply that the Amoeba is more likely between the Piko and Wilma in terms of output.

J.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Aussie LuvR said:


> So why would I want a Piko at 750 lumens when I can get Scar's new Amoeba XML rated at 1600 lumens. Granted there most likely will some loss, but certainly better than 750 lumens.


 Scar's Anoeba is a very good light made by a passionate light builder.That would also be a very good choice. His lamp head is very small as well , i'm not sure how well it would dissapate the heat driving the XML's harder for the 1600 lumen claim with no visable heat sinking fins, thus after a few minuts output would be dramatically reduced unless riding at high speed. Do you know the cost on that particular light?


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Looks like cost is somewhere in the $380 price point. It seems to be a nice light. I wonder about the use of the reflector with XML in such a small light. I am also guessing that the whole metal body of the light acts as a heat-sink. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one to play with and compare to some others lights out there.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Here's some beamshots of the Dinotte 1200L on high, the Piko 750 on high and both on high together.

Photos are with manual exposure (long) at ISO400, f/2.8 and 1/8s on a Canon G9. I apologize for quality and composition, I was in a bit of a hurry.

Dinotte 1200L on high









Piko 750 on high









Both on high









WIth lights this bright, digital or film cameras cannot adequately or properly represent the gradations in the beam. However, in this case, with a comparison, you can get an idea of how they are in a gross sense relatively speaking.

The white shed is about 150 down range.

The Dinotte 1200L and the Piko 750 are extremely close in performance. Any differences are personal and not functional for all intents and purposes. The beam patters are not well shown here because of the digital camera issue, but the Piko beam is more even across. The Dinotte has a bit of a hot spot in the center. Throw is about the same.

From this, I would guess that with both lights on we are looking at just about 1500 lumens and a 20+ degree beam. I'd suggest that this is just about what the Wilma 1500/22 or 26 degree beam would look like. If so, then this is a massive amount of light and it is just about equivalent, in the beam, to riding during the day on the road. At this point, I think we can say that the end to the lumens war is in sight. A Betty at 2600 and 26 degrees would be just about twice as bright. Wow.

This sets up an interesting idea - the idea of two Pikos putting out 1500 lumens of light together with a beam that would be more adjustable than a Wilma's. Thoughts on that? I'm seriously considering that since riding here with a head light until after the first frost will cause you to get inundated with light attracted bugs in the face.

My understanding now is that the new Wilma and Betty are to be available later in September.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

Thanks for the comparison shots. The 2xpiko approach sounds very interesting but i still wonder if a headlight should still be used. 

New Wilma and Betty are already listed in lupines store with prices. However I think you are correct with availability from Gretna.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

I think that with the two Piko approach, the benefit gained is redundancy it both battery and light as well as greater beam control. You have the option of expanding or contracting the hot spot, spreading it laterally or along the path of travel etc... You could wear one on the helmet and one on the bars or both on the bars. The Piko with both it's small battery and small lighthead is a lower profile deal than a single Wilma. But, it's more hassle.

Any way you cut it the pricing is about the same. Looks like Lupine has figured out a cost per lumen, and you pay that regardless of how many lights you want. 

I guess the point is this too - the lumens war is winding down. At about 1500 out the lens lumens, its hard to get more visible and the area of view is pretty much at daylight levels within the beam. More light is incrementally less useful. I'm almost wondering what happens with the Betty at 2600 lumens...

So, I think from 1500 lumens on, it's going to be about features, size, run time and weight, beam quality and throw. 

Seriously, I don't know if I'd what I'd do with more light than the 1500 lumens. Any more in the beam that I can now make and it is almost too bright. I could use a bit more throw but other than that, we're kind of there (give or take). It's good for descents to 30mph or so without overrunning the beam.

I go back and forth on the head light. Most of my night riding is on roads, albeit windy/hilly country roads. Mostly I use a headlight to shine on the driver window of cars that are at intersections to make sure they see me and I can see that the driver sees me. Occasionally, I wish I had a bit more light in a corner or turn but it's not that often. The dancing beam of the headlight can be distracting too. So, I go back and forth on that one. That said the combination of the Piko on a helmet and a new Wilma on the bars, is probably going to be a killer arrangement. Then there is the option of 3 Pikos..... 

J.


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## cue003 (May 6, 2011)

John if you keep that up you are going to end up with 4 pikos. Lol. 2 on the bars, 2pm your helmet (front and rear ligh/red filter). 

When that Betty 2600 becomes available I will let you know if it is really too much light.


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

LOL - maybe I could get a volume discount?

You know, I've been a lumen junkie for years. Hard to believe you could get too much light. That said, 1500 lumens out the front in a wide pattern is just about there. Surprised cynical me for sure.

If I do get another Piko (total of 2), I'd probably give that to my son for his commuting around the university. So, I'd not be out anything. RIght now, he's use the light and motion vis360 that has a 120 lumen light in front and flasher in the back. I might do that as an intermediate solution until the new Wilma comes out.

J


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## langen (May 21, 2005)

Has anyone compared the Piko to a Tesla or MS?

I think the new Piko looks awesome, but I'm a little concerned that the 22 degree beam doesn't throw far enough to make a great helmet light.


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## radirpok (Feb 1, 2006)

langen said:


> Has anyone compared the Piko to a Tesla or MS?
> 
> I think the new Piko looks awesome, but I'm a little concerned that the 22 degree beam doesn't throw far enough to make a great helmet light.


May your wish be granted:
• Thema anzeigen - Lupine Piko 22° (10W)

Based on these beamshots the new Piko looks to be the ultimate helmet light... especially compared to the Tesla, it is a no-brainer.


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## langen (May 21, 2005)

Thanks, radirpok!! No-brainer indeed


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

The 22 degree beam is really not all that wide when compared to some other lights I have. It's throw is just about identical to the Dinotte 1200L that I have - which has never been an issue with that light even though it has a floody beam.

J.


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## Podium (Feb 27, 2009)

Like many have suggested,the lumen war is getting closer to it's sensible potential.

I'd like to see manufacturers focus on user adjustable beam patterns and infinitely adjustable output.

It just seems a bit prehistoric to me to be limited to some preconfigured output options.High,med,low,flash etc.I'd much rather be able to be able to just rote a mini dimmer switch [with output indents] to exactly the output required.High,med,low is often too coarse an adjustment I find.

Next I'd like a user configurable beam pattern.Adjustable optics style.
I mostly ride on the road and want max punch and distance penetration,especially for fast [40-50mph descents] most lights fail here.
I also want the same light to have a good spread if an when required [ie off road]
Some sort of flexible reflector/adjustable lens would do it.

Admittedly it's no small task.But then I doubt most manufacturers are even thinking along these lines yet.

Being able to tailor a beam on the fly,to suit the variable speed and terrain, on road or off are more my idea of lighting holy grail than striving for a matchbox sized unit that pumps out 3000l for 5 hours...

Just a thought.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

I just got all the new Piko lights. Light test time!!

fc


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

Francois,,,,you back on the grid:thumbsup: Lots of new stuff to test this fall of coarse including all the Lupines,but Bajadesigns has some goodies,the new Trailled Darkstar, Amoeba,xml MS,the list could go on for a while. Hope you have a link or two for us to check out.Cheers!!!


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## JohnJ80 (Oct 10, 2008)

Francois - is that 750 lumens or 550?

J.


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

nice looking light John80, looks like it would make an excellent helmet light. Bit too narrow a beam for a mtb bar light for me though.

As for Scar's 3x XM-L amoeba, those lumens are probably somewhere between theoretical and actual lumens, closer to actual most likely. He's running the LEDs at 2A, which should be ~700lm theoretical for a U2 bin XM-L, Three of which = 2100lm - ~20% efficiency loss (temperature derating and optical efficiencies) = ~1600lm. The Regina reflector is easily the best 20mm reflector for XP-G/ XM-L and gives a broad hotspot and even fill (I prefer Laura RS or LXP-RS optics personally) - excellent for a helmet light, decent for a bar light. Driver is a h6flex from Taskled, which is easily the equal of anything from the major manufacturers and has temperature control enabled by default, along with several different user programmable modes and power levels.

Not to sound like an Amoeba shill or anything, just that you can build lights that are the functional equivalent of the big brand name manufacturers with off the shelf components, the only cost usually being aesthetics (check out my "real light for a real man" thread in the DIY section for an excellent example ).


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## mattthemuppet (Jul 16, 2004)

oh, forgot to say that, in a single light head, 2 or 3 LEDs stacked side to side, in a circle (3) or on top of each other doesn't make any difference to the beam pattern as the spacing between the LEDs (20mm or less) is a fraction of the size of the beam where it hits the ground. You can test this just by shining the light against a wall and moving it further away - after a foot or less you get one single uniform beam. Optics/ reflector is the main determinant and having multiple separate LEDs (as opposed to multi LED lights that use a one piece optic) allows you to tailor the beam pattern with slightly different optics/ reflectors.


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## randyharris (Jul 1, 2009)

mattthemuppet said:


> oh, forgot to say that, in a single light head, 2 or 3 LEDs stacked side to side, in a circle (3) or on top of each other doesn't make any difference to the beam pattern as the spacing between the LEDs (20mm or less) is a fraction of the size of the beam where it hits the ground. You can test this just by shining the light against a wall and moving it further away - after a foot or less you get one single uniform beam. Optics/ reflector is the main determinant and having multiple separate LEDs (as opposed to multi LED lights that use a one piece optic) allows you to tailor the beam pattern with slightly different optics/ reflectors.


After using my Piko with side by side LEDs I fully agree with this.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

indebt said:


> Francois,,,,you back on the grid:thumbsup: Lots of new stuff to test this fall of coarse including all the Lupines,but Bajadesigns has some goodies,the new Trailled Darkstar, Amoeba,xml MS,the list could go on for a while. Hope you have a link or two for us to check out.Cheers!!!


Yessss. Folks have been sending me lights so it's time for me to get my game on. I'm doing a high end and commuter shootout. What are the key lights to test?

So far I have:
- all Niteriders
- all lupines
- new Phillips lights
- new serfas

- i should be able to get Baja, Jet, Lights and Motion, Exposure. Magicshine.

fc


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

JohnJ80 said:


> Francois - is that 750 lumens or 550?
> 
> J.


This is the 750 lumen, 22 degree. It feels sooo good just to hold and play around. Ultimate form factor!

fc


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## randyharris (Jul 1, 2009)

langen said:


> Has anyone compared the Piko to a Tesla or MS?
> 
> I think the new Piko looks awesome, but I'm a little concerned that the 22 degree beam doesn't throw far enough to make a great helmet light.


I've been using the updated Piko as a helmet light, the only light, for road riding in the dark and I've had no issue at all, plenty of light where I need it at speeds up to say 25mph and an occasional 30mph descent.


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## BBW (Feb 25, 2004)

Hey Francois what about the new Dinotte lights!!????? look nice!!!!


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## bncrshr77 (Jun 19, 2007)

I already have 2 of the Piko 550 lumnes..... Would it be worth it to get the 750 lumen models to replace one of the 550's?? I use one on the bar and one on the helmet... Thanks...


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## randyharris (Jul 1, 2009)

bncrshr77 said:


> I already have 2 of the Piko 550 lumnes..... Would it be worth it to get the 750 lumen models to replace one of the 550's?? I use one on the bar and one on the helmet... Thanks...


I'd rather have something with more of a flood pattern on the bars.


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## indebt (Nov 8, 2009)

bncrshr77 said:


> I already have 2 of the Piko 550 lumnes..... Would it be worth it to get the 750 lumen models to replace one of the 550's?? I use one on the bar and one on the helmet... Thanks...


 If you can afford it, the new Wilma would be the way to go as there is way more flood than the 750 lumen Piko. That been said, the new Piko on your bars would be a noticable improvement.


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Lookit that machining! Lupine says they spend more money drilling this out than the Wilma or Betty TLs

fc


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