# New Saint M820 brake set-up. Help needed.



## PeytonP (Aug 29, 2011)

I'm a bit underwhelmed.
I rode mine for the first time yesterday. I switched out my rear X9 for the new Saint 820 on a 180mm rotor. I probably don't know all the jargon to explain this properly, but once I had reach dialed I found I had to pull the lever practically into my other fingers to get any sort of stopping force. With the X9, contact adjustment was so easy and I could ease the brakes through different levels of stopping power. I absolutely love the feel on downhill where I don't want to lock up on rocks but like sweet spots between no brake and full power. I figured Saint brakes would be even better with this.
With the M820, that in-between range was not very obvious. I don't doubt the power, but the lack of brake activation throughout lever pull bothered me. The line was re-bled and I took care to take a few runs down a long street to get things broken in before hitting the trail. So, I don't think that's the issue.
If any of you have tips on how to fix this, I'd really like to hear them. The free-stroke adjust didn't offer any distinguishable changes. I even wondered if Avid rotors are thinner than Shimano? That may be dumb but it would explain why the pads aren't maknig contact faster...
Anyway, I really want to like the M820, but I need some advice on how to set it up properly or I'll be heading back to the X9s.


----------



## howardyudoing (Mar 31, 2010)

are your pads bed in yet? it should take a few actual DH trails before you really feel the bite.


----------



## motochick (Jun 22, 2010)

Bleed them again, until they work right. There is air in there somewhere.


----------



## PeytonP (Aug 29, 2011)

Well, I attempted to get a good bed before riding for a few hours, but the pads might need a little more time.
it came as a pre-bled set, but with the odd feel it was bled again.

It's not a lack of bite or power that's bothering me, but the fact that it takes so much lever pull to finally feel it engage the pad. I'm kind of a brake newbie, here... Is there a way to set the pads to sit closer to the rotor on either side? That would shorten the distance of free movement before contact with the rotor and might help.


----------



## rscecil007 (Apr 7, 2007)

Did you bleed them with the bleed block installed? I've just got a set I will be bleeding in the next few days, but mine have been on for probably 2 weeks or so and aren't having any issues, even after I shortened the lines.

From what I understand of the directions I read on Shimano's site, the bleed block makes sure to set the right fluid level so the lever throw/pad contact is correct. But as I said, no first hand experience yet.


----------



## PeytonP (Aug 29, 2011)

rscecil007 said:


> From what I understand of the directions I read on Shimano's site, the bleed block makes sure to set the right fluid level so the lever throw/pad contact is correct..


Could you possibly post a link to that page, please?


----------



## rscecil007 (Apr 7, 2007)

Here you go:

brake bleed link

There's also a great how to video on this site here: Log In | Shimano T.E.C.

but you have to sign up and what not.


----------



## PeytonP (Aug 29, 2011)

Thank you very much. Reading over that, it does seem like there could still be some air in there. It's just odd that it came pre-bled from Shimano like that.

Anyway, if there are other tips for fine tuning Saint brakes, please share. If third bleed doesn't work then I'm not sure what to do.


----------



## rscecil007 (Apr 7, 2007)

Sign up on the site and watch that video. It's VERY detailed, but I've not compared it to the pdf doc I posted. 

They should be good to go direct from Shimano, but mistakes do happen.


----------



## FreeRidin' (Dec 26, 2006)

Bleed blocks are garbage....

Bleed the brakes on the bike using Avid syringes. Once you have all the air out, remove the syringe at the master cylinder and close up the port. Now with the syringe still attached at the calliper and the bleed port open, push more fluid into the system. You will see the pads move inwards. Once you get the pads where you want, close up the bleed port. 

If you want you can have your brake levers set up like a hairpin trigger. The only limitation is how straight the rotor is.


----------



## PeytonP (Aug 29, 2011)

FreeRidin' said:


> Bleed blocks are garbage....
> 
> Bleed the brakes on the bike using Avid syringes. Once you have all the air out, remove the syringe at the master cylinder and close up the port. Now with the syringe still attached at the calliper and the bleed port open, push more fluid into the system. You will see the pads move inwards. Once you get the pads where you want, close up the bleed port.
> 
> If you want you can have your brake levers set up like a hairpin trigger. The only limitation is how straight the rotor is.


That's a great idea. I'll give it a try this weekend.


----------



## IntenseMack10 (May 16, 2006)

FreeRidin' said:


> Bleed blocks are garbage....
> 
> Bleed the brakes on the bike using Avid syringes. Once you have all the air out, remove the syringe at the master cylinder and close up the port. Now with the syringe still attached at the calliper and the bleed port open, push more fluid into the system. You will see the pads move inwards. Once you get the pads where you want, close up the bleed port.
> 
> If you want you can have your brake levers set up like a hairpin trigger. The only limitation is how straight the rotor is.


This will work, but is really a bit more than you need to do. Just take the bleed block that came with the brakes, and file it thinner, taking off equal amounts from both sides so the pistons move out an even amount. Then just bleed using the shimano funnel at the lever. The bleed block being thinner will allow more fluid in the system.

Once youre done bleeding put everything back together. Then just pull your caliper off, squeeze the brake a little, then replace and test the amount of lever pull. Repeat until you are staisfied.

Every brake I have run has required this to get the lever pull where I want it. I run the new XT's on my AM bike and discovered that I can use this method and get the brake actuation almost instantaneous, but still not have any brake rub. My DH bike had 810 Saints that once you got the lever throw down to a certain point there was just going to be rub, but I just learned to live with it on a DH bike. Im in the process of upgrading to 820's on the DH bike, and assume I will find the same success with setting the lever pull for that as with the XT's (same design)


----------



## PeytonP (Aug 29, 2011)

This is great stuff. Thank you all for your help. Looking forward to trying it out tomorrow.


----------



## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

so? Did you get your bakes dialed payton? Im thinking about "upgrading" my m785 2012 xt brakes to some m820 2013 brakes in hopes of a bit more modulation when the brakes are really hot... So am curious to see if you got your brakes working well..


----------



## PeytonP (Aug 29, 2011)

Well, my buddy went to interbike and participated in a shimano brake bleed theory class. He talked to some techs about the issue and says he has a few things to try. I have the free stroke screw all the way out for more sensitivity and it's better, but it's still lacking. I also have the lever further from the bar than I like because when I dial it in to a comfortable position then I lose power and it pulls into my fingers. My buddy also ordered some different kind of bleed kit which we can hopefully try soon. 
I really notice the brake issue on this one section of DH single track where I overshoot a small table, whip right for a tree lined left turn at the landing that immediately leads into a rough dive to a wall ride with a sandy base. There's a lot of variables there that I handled with no issue at all with X9. Now I feel less in control and I have to muscle things around much more. Overall, I'm way more conscious of the rear brake whereas I used to just ride fluidly without concern. 
Hopefully we can fix this with another bleed and a little finesse.


----------



## PeytonP (Aug 29, 2011)

I wish I could offer more about performance over long park runs. I only put on the saint rear after several days in Angel Fire with a x7 lever/X9 caliper front combo because my buddy broke my X9 lever right before my trip. The Saint didn't arrive in time. ll I know is that odd SRAM combo feels better than what I have now.


----------



## delirian (Jan 1, 2009)

i fitted the new saits to my bike just before my whistler trip, ( did the last 3 weeks in september) overall the brakes worked fine, i was very impressed, they have great looks feel and power. they modulate very well, and held up on the long decents from the garbo zone, the only complaint i have was the inconsistant bite point, the brake would still work fine and modulate well but i would never really know where exactly in the lever stroke the pads would engage, 97% of the time it would be close to the bar, which is how i set them up, but the other 3% of the time it could be right at the top of the lever pull, or in the middle of the lever pull, it's weird cant really explain it, i just learned to live with it and get on with it.


----------



## rscecil007 (Apr 7, 2007)

I've got two sets of these, on on the trail bike and one on the DH bike. I'd heard about the varying bite point, and think it happened to me a handful of times. But it was so rare, everytime I thought I felt it, on the very next lever pull it was gone, so I thought nothing of it. Almost made me feel like maybe I'd just imagined it or something.

Until Saturday. Took the DH bike to the shore and shuttled Seymour. Rode down the road in near freezing temps to the CBC trail head (maybe a mile I guess, give or take,) with the brakes lightly on the whole way. All of us did, weren't taking any chances with the road wet and so cold out.

Got into the trail head and started riding, and I barely had to touch the lever and they were locked up. Instead of coming back close to the bars like normal, they were fully engaged way out from the bar. And pretty much stayed that way the whole ride down CBC. A few times they returned to normal, but not many. Really screwed up my riding. The last few trails we rode they did return to normal however.

No idea what happened. I spent 2 days at Whistler with them and no issues, and they have not done this on my trail bike either. 

Called Shimano, and they said they hadn't heard of it happening, and offered to replace them. So not sure what is going on.


----------



## KAZU (Aug 10, 2011)

Hi I have 3 sets of Saint brakes with icetech rotors on three different bikes for over a year. I ride at Highland MTB park at least every weekend. 

I have never had to bleed them, but I had the same problem with all sets with the bite point.

I have fixed this problem with a razor blade. 

1) I crank out the reach adjustment to furthest away from the grip.

2) I remove the caliper 

3) I slide the fat part of the razor blade between the brake pads( make sure the razor blade is clean).

4) I pump the lever over and over until the pads grip tightly the fat part of the razor blade and the lever feels solid. 

5) I then dial back my reach adjustment to where I want it. 

Essentially you are moving more fluid from the reservoir at the lever end to the caliper end. 

When my pads wear down I do it again. When I put new pads in I use the orange spacer thingy to push the pads out, swap the pads and go through the steps again. 

I you want a lesser bite point find something thicker than the razor blade.


----------



## PeytonP (Aug 29, 2011)

*Update*

Finally, my buddy bled my brake with his new Shimano PRO bleed kit. Before, we had just been using syringe setups. This one had a cup/funnel that screws into the lever. We filled it up and pumped it with the rotor and then again ever so slightly without the rotor. I screwed the bite adjust all the way in and out again to ensure every possible bit of oil could fill. Now, the bite point is right where I wanted it and I'm experiencing the power I had expected. No more pulling the lever into my fingers. 
My local trails aren't that long. So, I can't offer anything regarding feel on longer downhills.

If you don't have the Shimano PRO bleed kit with the screw-on funnel, get it. It's so much easier than syringes and it ensures every last bit of air is out of the line.


----------



## kdiff (Apr 25, 2010)

Thanks for the update! I've been wanting a pair of 820's but I've been waiting for more feedback while I save up.


----------



## Sleevem1 (Aug 23, 2012)

Guys, sorry to hijack thread. I just picked up a set of 820's for new Knolly Chili build. Can anyone recommend rotors that work well with the new saints?
thanks 
Steve


----------



## delirian (Jan 1, 2009)

Sleevem1 said:


> Guys, sorry to hijack thread. I just picked up a set of 820's for new Knolly Chili build. Can anyone recommend rotors that work well with the new saints?
> thanks
> Steve


i used the new icetec rotors with my 820 saints.... they work well togeather,


----------



## andytheaussie (Jan 2, 2003)

Hey Peyton
This is encouraging as I've been really disappointed with my Saint brakes so far. Can you post a link to the Shimano Pro bleed kit you're referring to?

Cheers


----------



## PeytonP (Aug 29, 2011)

Let's see. I think this is what we were using.

Shimano TL-BT03

See that little cup/funnel? That's what we used. I haven't had any problems since.


----------



## Pau11y (Oct 15, 2004)

*I like Avid bleed steps for Shimano brakes...*

I used my Avid syringes on a set of M988s for my trail bike...
Has some extra attachments from a Reverb bleed kit so I clipped the brass nipple off the end of one syringe attachment and used an old Hayes bleed nipple spring to attach the syringe on to the caliper bleed nipple. Using the Avid bleed method....pull a vacuum at the caliper w/ the lever closed to pull out all the air and degassed the fluid from the line and caliper. Then closed the caliper bleed nipple (but leave the syringe attached) after pushing in as much fluid as the syringe/system will allow. Then I pulled a vacuum on the lever to get the MC's air bubbles out and also pushed as much fluid into the system as allowed before buttoning up the MC/lever. Deviated from the Avid steps here...opened the caliper and fine tuned the bite point/feel at the lever to match the front w/ rear. This step took a bit of fussing, but I managed to get the lever to feel identical to my '11 Codes (both the Codes and M988s are on Goodridge lines).

Next project is to pair a M820 4-pots caliper to the M988's MC for the front end of that trail bike  This might be a pretty interesting setup for those lighter and/or weight conscious DH riders...?


----------



## chris.george (Jun 24, 2012)

PeytonP said:


> Finally, my buddy bled my brake with his new Shimano PRO bleed kit. Before, we had just been using syringe setups. This one had a cup/funnel that screws into the lever. We filled it up and pumped it with the rotor and then again ever so slightly without the rotor. I screwed the bite adjust all the way in and out again to ensure every possible bit of oil could fill. Now, the bite point is right where I wanted it and I'm experiencing the power I had expected. No more pulling the lever into my fingers.
> My local trails aren't that long. So, I can't offer anything regarding feel on longer downhills.
> 
> If you don't have the Shimano PRO bleed kit with the screw-on funnel, get it. It's so much easier than syringes and it ensures every last bit of air is out of the line.


Not to bring up an old thread, but I had a few questions.

- Did you actually bleed the brakes?
- Did you just attach the funnel, then squeeze the handle to let more fluid in?


----------



## Pau11y (Oct 15, 2004)

Zombie thread resurrection...
Hey, has anyone noticed the 820's pads rattling around in the caliper making all sorts of racket when your bike is plowing over chunder? I'm getting a lot of this...wondering if I just need to flair out the pad spring?


----------



## delirian (Jan 1, 2009)

Pau11y said:


> Zombie thread resurrection...
> Hey, has anyone noticed the 820's pads rattling around in the caliper making all sorts of racket when your bike is plowing over chunder? I'm getting a lot of this...wondering if I just need to flair out the pad spring?


havnt experianced it, buthave heard of it on shimano brakes,,, there was a vid on youtube about it, where some guy cut a small piece of innertube to make a rubber band to put round the pads to stop them doing it,


----------



## delirian (Jan 1, 2009)

found it here, not sure if this is what you mean or this will help.... but here you go


----------



## Pau11y (Oct 15, 2004)

delirian said:


> found it here, not sure if this is what you mean or this will help.... but here you go


Hey thanks! I'll give that a go. Not sure if it's the radiators rattling on the caliper body, but can't hurt to try


----------



## KU_MechE (Oct 29, 2011)

I put a dab of disc brake quiet on the back of the pads.


----------



## delirian (Jan 1, 2009)

Pau11y said:


> Hey thanks! I'll give that a go. Not sure if it's the radiators rattling on the caliper body, but can't hurt to try


yep...
or like the other guy said,,,, a little dab of copperslip on the back of the pad like they do on car brakes, this usually stops them rattling.


----------



## Pau11y (Oct 15, 2004)

KU_MechE said:


> I put a dab of disc brake quiet on the back of the pads.


Gotcha. And, I think I saw my local Checkers had small blister packs of the stuff at the counter... Thanks!


----------



## meSSican (Aug 8, 2010)

Found this today. Not sure if it will help the issue but it is worth a try. Just got my replacment m820 set and will try this out. My Saints were leaking at caliper and one at the lever...also got really spongy.

http://bike.shimano.com/publish/con...ownloadFile.html/08) Saint Brake Pro Tune.pdf


----------



## PeytonP (Aug 29, 2011)

It's about time for an update! I had my original lever replaced because, apparently, there was a faulty seal. It eventually started spraying fluid on my hands after a normal bleed. Shimano quickly replaced the lever and lever sensitivity and power is what I had expected all along. Though I'd still lean toward Avid (for the adjustability) on future trail bikes, the Saint gets the respect it deserved now that it's running as it should. I've had no problems at all since the replacement.


----------



## halsey18 (Jan 6, 2014)

hi i have a giant stp 2, and my crank arm bolt fell out i lost it, does anyone know where i can get one from looked everywhere


----------

