# Titanium spokes vs stainess steel spokes



## ayjay69 (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi,

I have some simple questions:

My weight is 165 lb (75kg). I want to make wheels on titanium spokes, but wheels must be totally stiff for races, do you think it would be good idea to use PILLAR PST TB Aero 1430 or Marvi (dunno what model) to my wheels instead of Cx-rays ? 

How titanium spokes works in mtb ? There are any benefits of using them ?

They are stiff similar to CX-Rays or other stainless steel spokes like dt revo ?s

What is real weight of Titanium spokes ?

Any of you used a Marvi spokes ? Do you have any weight comparison to other Ti spokes ?

I'm waiting for your answers

With regards
AyJay


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## Henri (Sep 17, 2009)

At 5.50$/spoke (price i got quoted) they better be damn good. I know someone who has had them for 5 years now and he only broke one of them in that amount of time. Apparently they are super stiff and very bomb-proof


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## rroadie (Aug 3, 2008)

Well I didn't find the ti spokes very stiff at all. Creaked under hard pedaling no matter how tight. I'd stick with the CXrays.


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## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

In my experience, a 2.0 (or Pillar 2.2 x 1.7mm) titanium spoke is about the same stiffness as a 1.5mm steel spoke, be it round or flattened to 2.3 x 0.9mm, but a little bit lighter because they are all 2.0mm at the ends.

I'm 80kg, and use a combination of 2.2 x 1.4mm on the side with least tension, and either 2.0mm or 2.2 x 1.7mm on the side with high tension, and it's worked wonderfully for racing for me for two seasons.


Ole.


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## ayjay69 (Mar 9, 2008)

What wtih extension ?


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## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

What do you mean by "extension"?


Ole.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

I think he means stretching.


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## ayjay69 (Mar 9, 2008)

Yes, you are right ! Im sorry for missunderstanding  I mean stretching after few months of riding. One person said that they are softer than steel spokes and they streched 2mm after a season.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

I have Pillar PST1422.

Front wheel is 28 spoke, 2 cross, Alex XCR rim, Tune hub

Rear wheel is 32 spoke, 3 cross Alex XCR rim, Tune hub

Wheel is fine for stiffness. Probably won't ever equal the same stiffness as straight non butted spokes. But the stiffness is not so poor that the bike handles poorly. With the ultra low pressure we run these days you are most likely feeling the tire casing floating around and twisting under hard cornering rather than the wheel flexing. 

So far so good with a full summer of riding (about 1100 kms worth) of single track. I believe with Ti spokes it is crucial to get the spoke tension very even, or else one spoke will see a lot of fatigue and the Ti spokes are not as fatigue resistant as steel spokes. 

I had Alchemy Bicycle Works build my 1180g wheelset. I'm loving it.


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

sfer1 said:


> I think he means stretching.


steel stretches more than Ti,
I mean Ti has much more return to its shape capacity
That's why ti spokes make a smooth ride

in 10 years using them I have not broken any
in that time I've broken two Cx-Ray


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## kroe (Mar 30, 2009)

Ok, lets get technical. I am not a materials engineer, but someone here is, or has done enough homework to act as one for this purpose.

Why are titanium spokes less fatigue resistant than steel spokes? I have a decent understanding of the properties of titanium. From what I gather it has a higher strength to weight ratio than steel, which should allow a lighter spoke with the same strength. I can understand how Ti spokes would require a stronger rim, since they flex more than steel spokes at the same tension, but I cannot understand how they could be weaker than a steel spoke unless manufacturers are just pushing the "reduced weight" too far.

Thoughts?


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## runawaymachine (Apr 21, 2008)

Yeah, I thought Ti had a longer fatigue life than steel. Mostly due to it's memory, though I am no materials engineer.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

given two exact specimens (size, shape, cross section... etc) of steel and titanium, titanium does not have a longer fatigue cycle than steel. 

For the 3 most commonly used metals in the bicycle industry: Steel (chromoly), aluminim and titanium the order they rank in greatest strength (yield strength)

They are: 

1.) Steel
2.) Ti
3.) Al

(speaking common alloys and not some super exotic alloys of their respective base metal)

Fatigue is a difficult scenario to model/analyze in engineering. Lab testing of two specimens of the exact same dimensions, material, etc... gives stochastic results. No two tests give you the same results. If you were to do fatigue cyclic loading tests on 100 different specimens you will get a bell curve i.e. ball park of X cycles before something failed at Y force. This result generally can not be easily extrapolated or interpolated to determine how many cycles before failure if you increased or decreased the applied force. 

Fact. In general the greater the applied stresses, the shorter the life of a part. Titanium has yield and ultimate strengths lower than that of Steel. 

Yield strength is the maximum force that can applied before plastic deformation of part, i.e. before the part won't return to original strength. Ultimate strength is the maximum amount of force you can apply before it breaks regardless if the parts becomes damaged or not. 

Since Titanium has lower strength than steel, steel has a longer fatigue life. 

Lets put this example to a wheel now. Wheels are laced to a hub and a rim. The spokes are all in tension pulling each other. When you ride on a bicycle wheel each spoke will slightly loose its tension (unload) and reload with tension as the wheel spins and supports your weight. This is what is causing the cyclic loading. 

If you are using steel spokes and you are of X weight, and that steel spokes are only 50% near it's yield strength capability of supporting X weight...

If you are using titanium spokes, and you are again of X weight, but now the Titanium spokes are 70% of its yield strength capability of supporting this X weight... and that the above two statements already take into account of optimizing each spoke for shape factors, cross sectional areas... heat treating or any other process... 

The titanium spokes are more heavily loaded than the steel spokes. Remember that in general the greater the applied stresses, the shorter the life of a part. 

Fatigue life calculations in engineering is always grey and fuzzy. Never exact. That is why a lot of the times you see huge margins added onto the final calculated answer.


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## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

Also, most Ti spokes are 2.0 plain gauge, which consentrate a lot more of the stresses at the bend and at the threads, causing earlier fatigue than, say, a 1.8/1.5/1.8 steel spoke of almost the same weight.

Pillar makes a spoke that is 2.2 at the head, 1.4 x 2.2mm oval in the middle (equalling 1.8mm round spoke), and 2.0 at the head. This spoke has pretty good fatigue life, but is way too soft to use on the side with high tension. It works well in combination with Pillar 1.7mm x 2.2 or 2.0 round.


Ole.


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## ayjay69 (Mar 9, 2008)

*Spokes I want to use*

I would use spokes from photography. I think they would be stiff as Cx-rays.

What do You think ?

I have already ordered hubs that would fit to that spokes.


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## STS (Jun 24, 2004)

http://www.evertibikes.com/why_titanium.htm

"Elongation numbers of a metal tell us how much a material will bend before it breaks. Titanium's 20 - 30 % elongation beats out steel's 10 - 15% and aluminum's 6 - 12%. The lower the elongation number, the more brittle and breakable a material is. The higher the elongation number, the stronger the material is. So, the same amount of titanium stretched out into a tube will wear less than the same amount of steel or aluminum stretched out to the same size tube."


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

I have the PST1422 spokes. I would say they are on par with DT swiss revolutions 1.8 gauge spokes in stiffness when built up to a wheel.


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## DavidR1 (Jul 7, 2008)

STS said:


> http://www.evertibikes.com/why_titanium.htm
> 
> "Elongation numbers of a metal tell us how much a material will bend before it breaks. Titanium's 20 - 30 % elongation beats out steel's 10 - 15% and aluminum's 6 - 12%. The lower the elongation number, the more brittle and breakable a material is. The higher the elongation number, the stronger the material is. So, the same amount of titanium stretched out into a tube will wear less than the same amount of steel or aluminum stretched out to the same size tube."


This statement isn't taking into account heat treating. This will have more to do with the breaking point of the metal.


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## Cheers! (Jun 26, 2006)

STS said:


> http://www.evertibikes.com/why_titanium.htm
> 
> "Elongation numbers of a metal tell us how much a material will bend before it breaks. Titanium's 20 - 30 % elongation beats out steel's 10 - 15% and aluminum's 6 - 12%. The lower the elongation number, the more brittle and breakable a material is. The higher the elongation number, the stronger the material is. So, the same amount of titanium stretched out into a tube will wear less than the same amount of steel or aluminum stretched out to the same size tube."


That statement is not entirely correct.

"he lower the elongation number, the more brittle and breakable a material is. The higher the elongation number, the stronger the material is."

1st point. Yes
2nd point NO!

If point #2 was correct an elastic band will be stronger than a steel cable, because the elastic band stretches more. :eekster:

Strength of a material (ability to react forces) is dictated by the yield strength and/or the ultimate strength.

Remember this is the internet. Don't believe everything you read. If you really want to understand go to the library and read a book. Books are 99% correct.


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## mtbpri (Feb 1, 2009)

*Ti spokes*

how much weigh is saved using titanium spokes vs steel or alum? im a 130lb rider.


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## ayjay69 (Mar 9, 2008)

Depends on spokes. The lightest available pillar PST X-TRA LITE weighs 2,6g per spoke, and Superspokes by Sapim weighs is 3,6 per spoke.

Titanium weighs, 40% less than steel in same size.


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## jaykay (Jul 1, 2010)

Never had a problem with Ti spokes and have been using them for the last 10 years or so. No noticeable difference in wheel stiffness and have never noticed a "springy" effect some people mention when talk of Ti spokes is on the table. You definitely notice the reduction of rotational weight though.

The most important thing, as I think someone hinted on, is that the wheels are built by someone experienced in using Ti spokes. If the spokes aren't tensioned right I find that they can go out of true rather quickly (I ride street though so can be pretty tough on my wheels).


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## xy9ine (Feb 2, 2005)

i've been using marwi ti (2.0mm) on my dh / fr wheels for years w/ no durability issues. they make for a nice stable wheelbuild. weight is about 120g for 32 (266mm); about 100g lighter per wheel than a steel 2.0. they're pretty too:


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## loggerhead (Mar 8, 2009)

those do look sweet:thumbsup:


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## slalomnorth65 (Oct 18, 2009)

Weight differences is fairly substantial, with regular 14 gauge ti spokes compared to dt swiss supercomps 2.0/1.7/1.8 about an 80 gram difference with the ti spokes


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## indian fire trail (Nov 22, 2007)

My wheels from www.kibikes.com:

- XTR hubs
- ZTR Olympic rims
- Marwi ti 2.0 mm spokes
- Weight: 1353 grams without swekers

Lots of miles done in almost a year, including a season of racing...no issues so far. :thumbsup:


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## JmZ (Jan 10, 2004)

Had a set of Ti wheels. 

Never really had a problem with them. They were light and plenty durable. I had 'em on a XC dually. Needed truing a little more than my steel spoked wheel. By a little, needed truing 3x instead of 1x. 

But I've also have taco'd wheels. Fixing a wheel with revolutions and a lightweight rim hurts the pocketbook a whole lot less than a wheel with 32 ti spokes. Sold my ti wheels to finance a new bike before it ever happened, but had a co worker with an XT/Ti/Mavic setup. He landed wrong, broke two spokes. Replaced those, then had to replace another 8 over the next two months as they broke on their own.

If I needed a set for race day, I'd be fine with ti, but for every day - I'm sticking with steel for right now.

JmZ


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## jbsteven (Aug 12, 2009)

I've done 4 foot drops on multiple sets of Ti spoked wheels of mine.....zero issues.


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## norcosam (Sep 27, 2008)

Had Marwi Ti spokes on my dh wheelset,Hope pro2 hubs with mavic 823 rims,Had no problems.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Are the Marwi Tis available in straight pull?


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## egebhardt (Nov 16, 2004)

I'm a metallurgical engineer.
One property of materials is Toughness.
Toughness is the "area under the curve".
The curve is describing the stress-strain curve of a material.
Ti is much tougher than Al or Fe, meaning, it can stretch and still have strength once stretched. So yes, it stretches more than steel and can hold be strong once it does stretch.
Aluminum just doesn't stretch much, as we know, it's brittle. Steel is in between.
That being said.......

I can't justify the cost of titanium for spokes. A DT Rev weighs just as much as a Marwi2.0 for a fraction of the cost. Ti for bolts and cogs? You bet!


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## indian fire trail (Nov 22, 2007)

egebhardt said:


> I'm a metallurgical engineer.
> One property of materials is Toughness.
> Toughness is the "area under the curve".
> The curve is describing the stress-strain curve of a material.
> ...


well, they bring a very comfortable ride


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

I'm sure technology has come a long way but I ran a set of Litespeed straight gauge Ti spokes on a rigid bike back in the 80s. At the time it was about a 1/4lb savings per wheel. They made for a pretty flexy wheel but that was a welcome trait with no suspension. The front wheel is still built up but after a few years the drive side of the rear wheel started failing at the bend. I replaced spokes for a while then went back to stainless.

Of course now they probably have better metallurgy and I see by the pics butted spokes so it's a different ballgame. Oh and at the time they were $2 or $2.50 each which was outrageous but apparently less than half of current prices.


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

Has anyone tried the Pillar PST X-TRA Straight Pull spokes?

These spokes would save almost 100 grams compared to Sapim CX-Rays, but do you think they would make a solid wheelset? I weigh 150 pounds.


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## crazy8 (Apr 21, 2009)

I have a friend who builds wheels using only ti spokes. He is in Madrid but I know he can give you info on this question.

www.kibikes.com


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## Jacob Chestnut (Apr 19, 2007)

I use Ti spokes on my everyday wheels. They were built with a King HD rear hub and a Hope front hub, and Stans 355 rims. Both wheels use 32 spokes and aluminum nipples. If I remember correctly my wheels weigh around 1400 grams. The spokes were $4.50 each a few years ago.

I weigh 150 lbs and don't find the wheels to be flexy. I had them built by Charles at Passion Trail Bikes in Northern California. Charles rides a similar set of wheels and he has at least 50 lbs on me. He advised me to go with Ti based on his favorable experience. 

I'd suggest giving Ti spokes a try but only from a builder with experience.


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## oscoy (Mar 12, 2007)

do they make ti. nips 4 the ti. spokes?


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

oscoy said:


> do they make ti. nips 4 the ti. spokes?


Titanium Bike Wheel Nipples - Bicycle Spoke Nipples | Titan Wheel Tech Bicycle Components


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Titanium Bike Wheel Nipples - Bicycle Spoke Nipples | Titan Wheel Tech Bicycle Components


Cool.

I just got on Pillar's site and they don't appear to offer the straight pull spokes any longer. Don't know what hubs to use them with anyhow but I'm sure there is something.


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