# Info on FlyPaper Pedals Is finally posted!



## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

At a mere 3.7 millimeters thin, the photo of FlyPaper Pedals has been the second most viewed photo from Interbike's Dirt Demolition Daze! Several people have posted questions and comments about them. I finally got a chance to post some additional info and answer a couple of the questions. If you are one of the thousands of people who were checking them out, now there's some info for you. If you haven't seen them tey, they are shown on the first page of photos from dirt demo and listed as "Flat, flat pedals"

Stay tuned, I'll be posting more info, as time allows.


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## CountryBoy (Oct 24, 2006)

pictures?


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## creyc (May 24, 2005)

Sweet..but uh, looks sketchy.


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## Heals120 (Apr 16, 2006)

Here ya go.

Link: https://gallery.mtbr.com/showphoto.php/photo/127591/cat/1182


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## Heals120 (Apr 16, 2006)

Crap, I got beaten to it.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

looks flexy.

edit: wait, after looking at those, whats the point? they're probably both heavier and weaker than a traditional pedal with a longer spindle....


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## creyc (May 24, 2005)

too slow, bro


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## Uncle Cliffy (Jul 7, 2006)

Meh. Looks like something I stepped on. Get it?...


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## fisherdude4eva (Apr 29, 2007)

looks like a slice of cheese to me


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## vexhex (Sep 18, 2005)

i just can't see how those would hold up to dh riding or freeride - maybe if you are 90lbs and dont really go big

i'd like to see a couple big guys review them - see how they really are


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## chooofoojoo (Feb 22, 2007)

The guy who makes em claims that they are lighter and stiffer then regular pedals. and he rides them xc and am.

I like the ingenuity, but would NEVER use them for dh purposes.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

not wide enough for my moccasins


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

most redarded idea ever....

straight-up ugliest bike part i've ever seen as well....


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## creyc (May 24, 2005)

I'm sure the initial reaction to tiny clipless pedals was just as doubtful..


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## freerider06 (Feb 13, 2007)

they make me feel funny...and i dont like it...


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

creyc said:


> I'm sure the initial reaction to tiny clipless pedals was just as doubtful..


just maybe true, but me says 200 pounds = no way


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## chooofoojoo (Feb 22, 2007)

I wanna know wuts up with how it attaches to the crank arm? it looks like it takes the place of an insert? look at the massive nut on the backside of the crank! 

i'm overly skeptical about these things.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Guess again, Billy Boy 42...*

FlyPaper Pedals are actually super light, and super strong. Ronnie Thomson, maker of Thomson seatposts and stems, said that he thought they were the best new innovation of the entire 2007 Interbike show. He also agreed with me that the weakest point on them is where the 20 millimeter bearing shoulder steps down to the 17 millimeter bearing seat. This from the man who does more destructive testing of his own and his competitor's products than most of the rest of the industry combined! Ever try to break or bend a solid 17 millimeter diameter shaft of 7075 aluminum? Plenty of downhill bikes run a 12 millimeter aluminum rear axel...

One 12 mm axel or TWO 17 mm pedal shafts....? Hmmm...


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*They are actually...*

100 millimeters by 100 millimeters, about the average for most platform pedals. I have size 12 wide feet and they have always been plenty wide for me.

Dean


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## Fulton (Feb 6, 2004)

Bike Doc said:


> FlyPaper Pedals are actually super light, and super strong. Ronnie Thomson, maker of Thomson seatposts and stems, said that he thought they were the best new innovation of the entire 2007 Interbike show. He also agreed with me that the weakest point on them is where the 20 millimeter bearing shoulder steps down to the 17 millimeter bearing seat. This from the man who does more destructive testing of his own and his competitor's products than most of the rest of the industry combined! Ever try to break or bend a solid 17 millimeter diameter shaft of 7075 aluminum? Plenty of downhill bikes run a 12 millimeter aluminum rear axel...
> 
> One 12 mm axel or TWO 17 mm pedal shafts....? Hmmm...


the fact that the 12mm axle is supported on both ends is worth noting. not really a fair comparison.


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## creyc (May 24, 2005)

not entirely a fair comparison, bike doc.

The rear axle is supported on both sides, a much different scenario than a pedal which has the entire load placed 4" out and floating in space. The torque exerted on the end point by means of the mechanical advantage create much higher forces than that found in a rear axle.

However, I would definitely take Ronnie Thomsons' word for it if he says they're stiff.

[edit] beat me to it!


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*You might also want to check with*

Lance Canfield and his brother, Chris. They both rode them at dirt demo, and they both want a pair! So does Krispy Kris Baughman, of Down and Double Down fame. Dave Turner also rode them and really liked them. And a couple of guys named Gary Fisher, Dave Weagle and Richard Cunningham had good things to say about them as well.

By the way, when was the last time anyone here bent a 17 millimeter shaft of solid aluminum, with ro without 4 inches or evem more of leverage?


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## creyc (May 24, 2005)

if its so good and stiff, why is it other companies use much more complex and rigid structures of trusses and triangles when all they really need is a flat plate of steel?


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Actually, it's*

7075 aluminum, not steel!!!


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## creyc (May 24, 2005)

[i've edited this 3 times because i dont know what to think about them.]

In spirit of keeping an open mind, i think it's a cool innovation but I have my doubts in how well they will take on rougher riding and heavier riders.

I would have to really try them before i can say anything else. I have to ask, what are the benefits of a thinner pedal? The weight part doesn't matter to lots of DH riders, and I can certainly name a few pedals which are stiffer, guaranteed. So what (besides the "different" aspect) makes these pedals better than say..a tried and true Kona Jack$hit?


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## vexhex (Sep 18, 2005)

*this part - not the shaft to the crank arm*

the part in yellow - where the thin becomes thicker - that is the part i can just see snapping off or bending over time.

it is great if they work for XC and AM - but most people would just use clips for that riding.

if i can bend and break a normal pedal - that is thick - why should i think a thin one would work any better?


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## mxer788 (Sep 17, 2007)

creyc said:


> even more flexy...


Aluminum is rigid, light, and strong, although in some ways less durable because of its rigidity and lack of forgiveness over time.

Steel flexes more, but is heavier. Can't really have the best of both worlds, unless of course you have lots of moolah and can get the titanium and carbon stuff. Which...I don't.


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## lelebebbel (Jan 31, 2005)

> if i can bend and break a normal pedal - that is thick - why should i think a thin one would work any better?


bend what part of a normal pedal - the actual aluminum body??? or the axle...



creyc said:


> if its so good and stiff, why is it other companies use much more complex and rigid structures of trusses and triangles when all they really need is a flat plate of steel?


They do it because they HAVE TO. Regular pedals have an axle that goes all the way through the pedal body, so the pedal body has to be thick because it contains the bearings and the axle. With the flatflat pedals, the bearings are on both sides of the crank arm. No axle on the outside means pedal can be way thinner.
A 3.7mm solid Aluminium plate of these dimensions can surely be plenty stiff, so no worries there. The question is, how good will the bearing system work. The second question is, would they be less ugly in black.

By the way, shimano once had a similiar system with clipless roadbike pedals. However, the bearing system was different. they required a special crank arm with a huge pedal eye and as far as I know, the bearings were ****.
The point of all this effort is that pedaling becomes more [insert biomechanical blabla here] when your foot is closer to the actual rotation axis of the pedal.


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## vexhex (Sep 18, 2005)

"when your foot is closer to the actual rotation axis of the pedal.:"

because pedal rotation is exactly what I am looking for while hitting a 30ft gap.

seriously - they may work for a lot of people - but - having already bent a regular pedals - why is something that is thinner going to be better.


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## creyc (May 24, 2005)

interesting, lelebebbel.

I took that comment out, mxer.  you caught me.


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## lelebebbel (Jan 31, 2005)

vexhex said:


> "when your foot is closer to the actual rotation axis of the pedal.:"
> 
> because pedal rotation is exactly what I am looking for while hitting a 30ft gap.


Yeah I agree- Its nice that they are really light, but the flatness itself does probably not really matter for DH/FR. Would be interesting to try them though, wonder if pedaling feels different. 
Maybe there are other advantages, I don't know.


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## mandown (May 20, 2004)

atomlab will need to correct their website as their aircorp pedals will no longer be "absolutely the thinnest, grippiest pedals on the market." they can just change it to "the grippiest"


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## creyc (May 24, 2005)

atomlab has some time i think...i've not seen these actually "on the market" for sale anywhere


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## Kanga (Sep 14, 2004)

I posted this elsewhere, but I got to pedal these around at the dirt demo (only round the parking lot), and they felt like they could convert me back to full-time flats. 

The biggest advantage is that you can apply forward pressure at the top of the pedal's arc, without your foot rolling off the top, and vice-versa at the bottom of the arc. The result is the ability to put power to the pedal through a greater portion of the pedal's arc of rotation than a normal pedal. It's a weird sensation at first, not being clipped, but being able to apply forward force to the pedal as it reaches the top of rotation, and all the way through, and slightly past the bottom of it's rotation.

You feel more glued to the pedal than any other flat I've ridden. I can't wait to put a pair to the test on a real trail. If there's a wait list to get a pair, sign me up!


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## jamesdc (Oct 31, 2005)

I would never run those pedals, thay would snap with me and my hack style of riding and they are no where big enough for my size 14 feet and they are by far the ugliest pedals ever.


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## pdirt (Jan 12, 2004)

I think the design is a great starting point;. That advantage for DH/FR with a thinner pedal is clearance, over rocks, wood structures,etc.. and weight. I think it could be a very cool design with some refinements. Good on ya... keep going! 

Mots DH rigs have a very low BB and squat tremendously,. sitting down into their smooth spot at speed... think Turner's DH design. A thinner, flatter pedal would benefit being lower to the ground. Think about all the DH designs that squat when braking into rock gardens... I'd love a few more mm's of clearance at the pedals in these situations...sure.

I like it!


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## 317000 (Mar 2, 2007)

I think it's a good idea, but i hate the appearance of the pedals in general. Look really ugly.

Also, They don't look like they'd grip worth a sh*t. The pins are short and dull and the design isn't concave, so i can see my feet slipping off even with my 5.10's.

How about use the same axle design, but make the actually CNC the platform in a really cool, but thicker, design thats super concave? now that would be dope. make them chrome too

how about somthing like thiiiis?


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Atomlab will have to drop both words... thin = sticky*

Thinnest AND stickiest! As Kanga mentioned below, FlyPaper Pedals grip better than any platform pedals he's ever tried. Grips better = STICKIEST!!!

This was the main point of developing FlyPaper Pedals. I used to ride the original Atomlabs Aircorp, myself. At 19 millimeters thick they were a vast improvement over the 26 millimeter thick redline pedals I had previosly ridden.

Try this experiment: Take an extra pair of platform pedals and a couple of zip ties. Zip tie both of the spare pedals to ONE of the pedals on your bike, one on top, the other on the bottom. Now, with your new "triple thick pedal", try riding your bike around the parking lot, but be CAREFUL! Notice how easily the pedal wants to roll under your foot, especially if you try to start pushing forward early in the pedal stroke. Now try standing up on your new triple thick. (REALLY CAREFUL HERE!!!) Next, go find yourself a hill to climb. Try it seated and then standing.

I actuall have done all of these experiments, (at the suggestion of someone from Atomlabs) which was what 8 or 10 years ago convinced me to try the Atomlab Aircorp. By placing your foot closer to the axis of the pedal's rotation, you reduce the leverage that would otherwise allow your foot to roll the pedal. This thinness IS WHAT MAKES THE PEDAL STICKIER AND MORE STABLE!!! (Which is precisely why downhillers and freeeriders will want these pedals.)

The stability of FlyPaper Pedals allows you to start pedaling harder, earlier in the pedal stroke without having your foot slip or roll off the front of the pedal, and continue pedaling harder farther across the bottom of the pedal stroke without having your foot slip or roll off the back of the pedal. Longer pedal stroke = more power = improved sprinting = faster downhill runs!

Also, by having a longer power stroke, your power becomes smoother and less "spikey", reducing the chance of overpowering and spinning the rear wheel in low traction conditions.

Second benefit: Lower rider platform!

Reducing the pedal to 3.7 millimeters thick versus 24mm to 25mm for most platform pedals (27mm or more for some) means that the rider is standing more than 10 millimeters lower. This lowers the rider's center of gravity by 10mm. This also allows a 10mm lower saddle position and 10mm lower handlebars. Since the rider is the heaviest part of the bike, this seemingly small drop in position is HUGE in performance benefits. First, the bike corners better, with more stability. Second, you can now descend steeper roll-ins to squarer hits at the bottom befrtoe you go over the handlebars. Third, you can now climb steeper hills before the bike tries to wheelie over backwards.

Another benefit: More ground clearance!

That same 10 millimeters taken off the other side of the pedal allows you to pedal through chunkier rock gardens without hitting your pedals. Pedaling where others are coasting = faster downhill runs!

But perhaps you ride in Smoothville and there ain't no rock gardens or maybe your frame was designed with all the ground clearance that you would ever want or need... THEN RE-DESIGN YOUR FRAME!!! Now, with flypaper pedals, you can LOWER your bottom bracket by 10 millimeters and now the rider wil be 20millimeters lower than on your old set-up. Your frame size is from the bottom bracket to the seat clamp, so lowering the bottom bracket 10 mm means that you also lower your seat tube and the rear end of your top tube a corresponding 10mm! The center of your top tube is now 5mm lower, a significant benefit for anyone with a crotch, but especially for the vertically challenged! Your saddle and handlebars are now 20 millimeters lower than before! Any downhillers interested yet?

What's that, you say... you ride clipped in and just wouldn't be interested in a platform pedal, no matter how good. Guess what I'm working on now??? That's right, a clippity-do pedal that is based on the same bearing / spindle concept. Once again, without the spindle in the way, the pedal will be much thinner. I have some other tricks up my sleeve that will make them easier to clip into than any existing pedal, but I can't say too much about them until I get those patents filed. Speaking of patents, I've already filed for two of them for FlyPaper Pedals, and the clip-ins will qualify for at least two more. The road version should qualify fo one more beyond that. I've also got A headset design that will drop about 100 grams off of a headset (even though some headsets weigh less than 100 grams already!) and several other projects in the works, including wheels and three different real transmission designs, because I've never met a defailleur I didn't HATE!!!

Gotta run for now... time to make the milling machine spit out more chips...

Dean


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## 317000 (Mar 2, 2007)

dean, if you work for a bike company and post on any forum on this website it is required that you say so in your signature.  

I still like my idea better, but, i would be willing to try some out and give feedback on here. How much will they cost?

FlyPaper is a perfect name BTW.

1000 POSTS!!!


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## creyc (May 24, 2005)

thats the kind of info i was looking for, Dean.

Sounds like they should be a real improvement, as long as that bearing holds up! 

I'd still like to hear a full, un-biased review from a dh rider, and not a lightweight!


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## Kanga (Sep 14, 2004)

Thanks for that extra explanation.... I had just posted a bit of an explanation on the thread over in the Passion forum as well. All those high-school engineering classes coming in handy!

When you've got some test pairs available, I'd love to put some through their paces. 

Thanks


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## Huck Banzai (May 8, 2005)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> just maybe true, but me says 200 pounds = no way


Looks pretty weird! Who knows! veyrone doubted 5 then 6 then 7" Single Crowns, but now they are norm...

The bearing looks to be in the crank/at the crank rather than inside the pedal body so the platform and spindle must be 1 piece. Interesting, but goofy lookin.

Low profile for sure!


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## Stalk (May 24, 2005)

Nice thinking Dean, 

so new Cleated pedals will use cleat mechanizm bellow the axle so gravity will rotate pedal to clip-ready position all the time and you can use one-sided pdeal only saving further weght :thumbsup: same concept like stationary bikes flat pedals? 

Those patents are so easy to come with nowdays, or should I beat you and file it, jk

Glad to see innovations coming, kindof making beaten phrase "reinventing a bike" an absolete.


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## Dirt_Dog (Sep 21, 2007)

Sweet!

They will make for an effectively lower BB, but with more ground clearance!

I think racers would be all over the lower wind resistance too!:thumbsup:


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## mobile chernobyl (Apr 12, 2006)

So effectively your putting the bearing in the crankarm? and the axle is just a solid part of the pedal body that runs through the bearings in the crank arm tip? Correct me if im wrong but thats a killer idea, thinking outside the box, hell get rid of the box that is a thick pedal haha. awsome and simple, and structurally sound - im sure u've run FEA's on em and that looks like a design that has been tailored for a high strength to weight ratio. I might just get a new set of pedals someday, and these will be it lol.


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## sikocycles (Oct 10, 2005)

I would give them a shot. They look interesting.


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## jimage (Dec 22, 2006)

i hated them at first but then i read the science part and they seem pritty cool!

if they made a beafer set for dh/freeride id run them

does the bearings work on any crankset with normal pedal threads?


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## mudpuppy (Feb 7, 2004)

Well, I like them...not the best looking but the ideas behind them are great. I am a 250lb dude who rides in a rainforest (Vancouver Island, BC) and would love to give these bad boys a try...see if they can stand up to me.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

I'd love to try them out


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## alant (Nov 17, 2005)

i'm with one of the posters who said at first he didn't like them based on looks. however, after reading hte explanation, they make perfect sense. i run atomlabs (perfect pedal i've ever used) but i occasionally flip my pedal. these do seem like they would resolve that. great thinking "out of the box". can't wait to try some. :thumbsup:


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## Rover Nick (Jul 13, 2006)

They should paint/ano them brown, so then they can really look like a stepped on dog turd


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## ertman (Aug 24, 2007)

Wow, I never knew there were so many fashionistas and materials experts on MTBR!

I don't care what they look like, since they will be under my feet. And I don't have a degree in materials engineering, so I can't say if they will be strong or weak.

But damn, they are thin. I'd like to try a pair.


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## Bulldog (Jan 13, 2004)

Bike Doc said:


> ... I've also got A headset design that will drop about 100 grams off of a headset (even though some headsets weigh less than 100 grams already!) ...


You had my interest until the point you said you were going to make headsets out of hydrogen.


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## cmooreboards (Jan 24, 2007)

For those of you who doubt these pedals, here is food for thought. Why would a company make pedals that would break when a 200lb guy rides them? They wouldn't! Sure they are thin, but I just don't see why a company would put out a pedal that wouldn't hold up to standard abuse and worked for most everyone. Well, I guess thats how I would run a business, so I hope these guys think the same...


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## NoBrakes! (Jun 15, 2007)

d thy have pins on bothe sides


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Rover Nick said:


> They should paint/ano them brown, so then they can really look like a stepped on dog turd


Funny.:thumbsup:


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## global (Apr 3, 2006)

*It's About Time Sombody Improved Platforms*

Lighter, new design on bearings,may improve clearance over rocks.Sounds like I need a pair.Been ridinng ti azonic Aframes with 5/10s waiting for another light option.Sign me up for the first ones.


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## Kanga (Sep 14, 2004)

NoBrakes, they do have pins on both sides.


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## ChromedToast (Sep 19, 2006)

I weigh 230-240ish and break lots of things, I would gladly test them for the fat people. I could promote them too. I love the pedals, and I want to try them as soon as they are available. I was actually thinking of how one would make a super skinny pedal a couple days ago and how they would feel.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Sure looks interesting. I wouldn't mind taking a spin on them.


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## coldawg (May 19, 2006)

when and where can i get a hold of a set?

i was about to buy new flats, but i'll probably hold off until i can get some of these bad boys


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## CountryBoy (Oct 24, 2006)

That back side bolt would hit my chainstay guard.


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## chicohigh5 (Mar 15, 2007)

with the bearings on each side of the crank arm you wouldnt have to worry about stipped pedal inserts


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## Havefaith (May 8, 2006)

First off: Aluminum is not stiffer than steel. Look up their modulus'
Secondly: The reduced pedal thickness decreases the overall body stiffness considerably, in fact to the third power. So a 1/2 plate of steel is 8 times stiffer than a 1/4 inch plate. You lose a whole lot of section by going to a flat plate. 
Thirdly: Those two inboard bearings are going to see a hell of a lot more moment loading than having a bearing or bushing on the end of a spindle.

That being said, I think they are a good idea, interesting design and probably work perfectly great. In the grand scheme of things, a 200 pound human being only a few inches off center does not create that hi of loads, unless they ride a hardtail and do drops to flat.....


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## Kanga (Sep 14, 2004)

My understanding of the prototype was that it was not a standard crank, but a modified one to be compatible with the system. With that, I'm sure he can engineer a crank to better distribute those loads. It will be interesting to see if Dean can engineer them to fit into standard cranks.....


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## Rover Nick (Jul 13, 2006)

Havefaith said:


> First off: Aluminum is not stiffer than steel. Look up their modulus'
> Secondly: The reduced pedal thickness decreases the overall body stiffness considerably, in fact to the third power. So a 1/2 plate of steel is 8 times stiffer than a 1/4 inch plate. You lose a whole lot of section by going to a flat plate.
> Thirdly: Those two inboard bearings are going to see a hell of a lot more moment loading than having a bearing or bushing on the end of a spindle.


I like how Havefaith is such a pessimist


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## lelebebbel (Jan 31, 2005)

Havefaith said:


> First off: Aluminum is not stiffer than steel. Look up their modulus'
> Secondly: The reduced pedal thickness decreases the overall body stiffness considerably, in fact to the third power. So a 1/2 plate of steel is 8 times stiffer than a 1/4 inch plate. You lose a whole lot of section by going to a flat plate.


That is true, but irrelevant. I don't really think that the pedal body itself limits the stiffness on any conventional pedal. Instead, it is the axle itself - the part with the smallest cross section by a huge margin*, and it has to carry the highest moment because it is between the riders foot and the crank.

*the thinnest part of the axle is only as wide as the *inner* diameter of the inner pedal bearing. And the outer diameter of that is limited by the thickness of the pedal body.

In fact, I can see an advantage here for the flypaper pedal.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*The pins*

The pins go all the way through the pedal body. I'm currently experimenting with different pin lengths. I have 12 millimeter pins on the left pedal, which means that they stick out abot 4 millimeters on either side; and 10 millimeter pins on the right pedal, which give a 3 millimeter pin height on either side. I thinh that on both pedals that I actually have too many pins, and that even at 200 lbs, my shoe is sitting too much on top of the pins, kind of like the "bed od nails" trick. One of these days soon, I'm going to get my ice pick and clean out the sandstone that is impacted into the allen head sockets on these and remove a few pins from each pedal. I'm pretty sure that doing so will make the bottom of my shoe sink down around the remaining pins a bit farther and make these puppies even grippier than they already are!


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*I think it's a hoax...*

Building a platform pedal with a concave foot bed at first seems like a good idea. I seems as if the surface being cupped would hold your foot in place better than being flat. BUT since the goal of this project was to reduce pedal roll while pushing and pulling across the top and bottom of the pedal stroke, and since thicker pedals have been proven to have more pedal roll, I opted to not cup the foot bed. I believe that the most critical part of the pedal, when it comes to thickness, is the edge. Think about this: as a pedal starts to roll under your foot, once it rotates just a couple of degrees, the only part still in contact with the bottom of your shoe is the edge. The rest of the roll is entirely dependant on the leverage that comes from the thickness at the remaining point of contact. I think that ideally, a convex or slightly football shaped front to back profile would actually reduce roll. However FlyPaper pedals are already so thin, (3.7 millimeters) that I don't think there is room to thin out the front and back edges without compromising strenght and durability. And besides, they just don't need it...they're already the grippiest, most stable platform pedals on the planet. And as I mentioned in another post a few minutes ago, I think that they will be even grippier after I remove a few pins. Furthermore, IF I AM WRONG about the concave/convex thing, and a convex shape is actually better, rather than Adding a bunch of extra weight by making the front and rear edges thicker, all that you would really have to do to get an overall convex profile, is to replace the front and rear pins with longer ones than used in the middle. (Currently I am running 12 millimeter pins on one pedal for 4 millimeters of pin extension on each side of the pedal body, and 10 millimeter pins on the other for 3 millimeters of pin extension on each side of that pedal body. Since both sides fell equally grippy, I think that I may have too many pins and that reducing the number of pins might actually make a great thing even better!)


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## bikenweed (Dec 22, 2005)

Those would be great on my BMX bike. I'd love to try a pair.


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

I'll take a set whenever they are ready to go into production.

Just let me know.

Thanks,


R.


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## Kanga (Sep 14, 2004)

I didn't realize the pins went all the way through. Sounds good and like the best way to get a secure mount on something so thin. One question, have you had a problem removing and replacing pins that are bent or roughed on both sides? That's the only possible drawback I could see.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Removing pins*

I have yet to bend a pin. A few of them are roughed up a bit from banging into the rocks. Most of them have sandstone impacted into the allen head socket. The rest of the wrench sockets are packed with mud. I'm guessing that the reason I have yet to bend any pins is two-fold. First, even though I sometimes try to hit them to accelerate the testing process, I rarely actually get them to hit, as they are just so thin. Second, I'm using rather short pins; with four millimeters of pin extension on one pedal, and only 3 millimeters of pin extension on the other pedal, so when they do hit, there just isn't much leverage to bend them. As for removal, since they go the whole way through, both sides of a given pin would have to be mangled or bent before it would even become a slight issue. If that was the case, I plan on just taking one side of a double bent pin to the grinder, and taking it down flush with the pedal body and grabbing the other side with vice grips to unthread it. I'm actually looking forward to having to try that! But speaking of removing pins, as I mentioned yesterday, I think I can improve the already phenominal grip of thesed things by REMOVING a few pins, as I believe that I'm standing somewhat on top of them now, kind of like the old "bed of nails" circus/"indian mystic" trick. Maybe I'll finally get around to that today (every time I remember that I want to try this, I've been out on a trail, with my 2 millimeter wrench, but no icepick to clean out the impacted sandstone and mud.) So, I'll go pull some pins now and hopefully this afternoon I'll get to go give them a whirl on some prime Sedona singletrack and slickrock! After a few rides, I'll let you know if it does what i'm thinking it will...


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## A Grove (Nov 12, 2006)

mxer788 said:


> Aluminum is rigid, light, and strong, although in some ways less durable because of its rigidity and lack of forgiveness over time.
> 
> Steel flexes more, but is heavier. Can't really have the best of both worlds, unless of course you have lots of moolah and can get the titanium and carbon stuff. Which...I don't.


you DO realize that carbon and titanium are amoungst the stiffest...??   

And you DO realize that everything that was said in your reply was completely backwards?

Steel is not heavier, is its rather lighter. Aluminum is weaker by a fair stretch.

The type of bracing and wall thickness companies are using to get a structurally sound aluminum frame is UNREAL! You can use HALF that if you build it out of steel...

There are a lot of mis-conceptions going around that aluminum is the 1337 material to build a frame out of. Aluminum has a signifacntly lower fatigue life, and when it decides to fail, it could be catastrophic. The elastisity of a steel frame provides for a bike that will keep on keepin' on for manny many more years than an aluminum frame used for the same purpose.

Sorry for the hi-jack... But i dont quite like when people think they know their ****.


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## A Grove (Nov 12, 2006)

Havefaith said:


> First off: Aluminum is not stiffer than steel. Look up their modulus'
> Secondly: The reduced pedal thickness decreases the overall body stiffness considerably, in fact to the third power. So a 1/2 plate of steel is 8 times stiffer than a 1/4 inch plate. You lose a whole lot of section by going to a flat plate.
> Thirdly: Those two inboard bearings are going to see a hell of a lot more moment loading than having a bearing or bushing on the end of a spindle.
> 
> That being said, I think they are a good idea, interesting design and probably work perfectly great. In the grand scheme of things, a 200 pound human being only a few inches off center does not create that hi of loads, unless they ride a hardtail and do drops to flat.....


Wow,

AMEN!!!

back to the pedals... I would never trust my life/legs/face riding a thin peice of metal... Let alone ALUMINUM!! And I have yet to see any bit of info about it being heat treated... :nono:

Having a bearing on the backside of the crankarm could post for clearance issues. ESPECIALLY with people owning a steel frame... Not to mention having the bearings placed that close together greatly decreases the load distribution the bearings will be seeing.

Not trying to hardcore bash the product... Just giving my bit of feedback...


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## michaelsnead (Aug 31, 2005)

*bump*

bump


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## mxer788 (Sep 17, 2007)

A Grove said:


> you DO realize that carbon and titanium are amoungst the stiffest...??
> 
> And you DO realize that everything that was said in your reply was completely backwards?
> 
> ...


Yes...i DO realize that carbon and titanium are very stiff and light. That's basically what I said. The point I made was that these materials are expensive and out of reach of the average consumer. I don't know how you took my comment, but the main point is that everyone would use those materials if it was practical. Steel and Aluminum are cheaper, but for a reason.

I'm not sure on the weight difference between steel and aluminum. Apparently steel is lighter, however many aluminum frames built with all the extra gussets and thicker walls are the same weight, if not lighter, than the steel comparison. You are correct about steel being more forgiving, having a longer fatigue life, but this also usually means less rigidity.


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## lelebebbel (Jan 31, 2005)

*aluminu-phobia?*



A Grove said:


> Wow,
> 
> AMEN!!!
> 
> back to the pedals... I would never trust my life/legs/face riding a thin peice of metal... Let alone ALUMINUM!! And I have yet to see any bit of info about it being heat treated... :nono:


- as explained a few posts earlier, the strength of a pedal is not limited by it's thickness, even if it is made out of -gasp- aluminum!
- the modulus of steel is about 3 times higher than that of aluminum, but it is also about 3 times heavier.
- since you don't trust aluminum, I suppose your cranks, stem, bars and seatpost are steel, too? The only non-aluminum DH/FR pedals out there are synchros mentals. They weigh roughly twice as much as all the others, and cost 5 times as much.

so, don't turn this into a (..nother pointless) steel VS. aluminum discussion - that's what the frame building forum is for. By the way, 2 of my 3 current bikes are steel..



> Having a bearing on the backside of the crankarm could post for clearance issues. ESPECIALLY with people owning a steel frame... Not to mention having the bearings placed that close together greatly decreases the load distribution the bearings will be seeing.
> 
> Not trying to hardcore bash the product... Just giving my bit of feedback...


that part I don't get. Due to steel beeing stronger than aluminum, the tubes on a steel frame are usually much thinner, thus providing MORE clearance for the cranks than, say, the enormous chainstays of any a generic aluminum DH/FR frame.
Since all cranks made in the last few years are extremely wide (so they fit on full suspension bikes), there is usually more than enough clearance between chainstays and crank, at least on every frame I've seen so far. Unless you want to run 1994 square taper cranks, of course. But then I wouldn't worry about the strength of the PEDAL


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*I'm 200 lbs*

In fact, I was clydesdale state cross-country champ in Utah in 1996, so not only am I a fairly big guy, I also hammer, AND I now live in Sedona, AZ, home of some of the gnarliest, rockiest, technical trails on the planet. I've also tested these on a couple of multi-day trips to Zion (Southern Utah) and a couple of trips to Boulder City, NV and a two week trip to California and Oregon.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*The way that they attach...*

is with a couple of bearing cups screwed into the crank arm. The "hex nut" that you refer to on the back side of the crank arm is the wrencr flats on the outside of the bearing cup. I bored out the original pedal nut much larger than standard to accomodate the oversized threads on the bearing cups, and also bored out the inner side of the crank arm even bigger to let the inner bearing cup sit partially inside the crank arm for increased frame clearance. On production models, the bearing cups will be forged into the ends of the crank arms and the geometry will be adjusted to allow plenty of clearance on any frame.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*I tried to make the first pair*

out of cheese, but those WERE too flexy...then I tried a pair made of uraniun, but those were too heavy and kind of HOT; so I thought that 7075 aluminum heat treated to T-6 would be a good compromise...


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## lelebebbel (Jan 31, 2005)

Bike Doc said:


> On production models, the bearing cups will be forged into the ends of the crank arms and the geometry will be adjusted to allow plenty of clearance on any frame.


So they will require special cranks, i.e. come as a set including those crankarms? If so, are those cranks going to be modified versions of an existing crankset?
Will there be a way to attach them to, say, generic Hone or Saint cranks?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Bike Doc said:


> In fact, I was clydesdale state cross-country champ in Utah in 1996, so not only am I a fairly big guy, I also hammer, AND I now live in Sedona, AZ, home of some of the gnarliest, rockiest, technical trails on the planet. I've also tested these on a couple of multi-day trips to Zion (Southern Utah) and a couple of trips to Boulder City, NV and a two week trip to California and Oregon.


Oh please, yes there's a lot of rock in Sedona, but it's more XC orientated, there is no "DH" stuff like in flagstaff, you don't usually clip rocks at 30mph in sedona, and so forth. I live near Sedona, and I've also ridden in many other places. It's a very limited amount of trails and vertical compared to places like Moab. It's not at the level you seem to be making it out to be. I've killed 3 sets of crack brothers (yes, pun intended) products in Flag, but no shimanos, I beat the hell out of my 545s and they just keep going.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Not even Bender can bend them!*

And I should know... I used to sponsor Josh out of my shop for about three years. I've ridden with him hundreds of times and been present for many of his biggest drops, AND I have worked hundreds of hours on his bikes, replacing bent and broken parts of all kinds. Knowing what kind of abuse he is capable of dishing out, I'm confident in stating that these pedals are Benderproof! He would break himself before he could break these pedals, and you would too. Ronnie Thomson agreed with me that the area you circled is NOT the weak point of the design. The weakest part is where the bearing shoulder steps down to the 17 millimeter bearing seat, and we radiused the inside of that corner. When I put the pedal in the six o'clock position and push down on the outer edge as hard as I can, the crank arm (FSA Gravity GAP Mega EXO's, not exactly a flimsy crank) flexes inward about 3/8 of an inch, the frame (Iron Horse 7 Point, also not too wimpy) twists a small amount, AND there is no detectable flex in the pedal. (Obviously, it must be flexing a small amount, just not enough to matter, when compared to the cranks and frame.)


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Taking flights with the uranium ones would have been a pain in the a$$ with security nowadays as well. Good choice on the Al.



Bike Doc said:


> out of cheese, but those WERE too flexy...then I tried a pair made of uraniun, but those were too heavy and kind of HOT; so I thought that 7075 aluminum heat treated to T-6 would be a good compromise...


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Have you ridden*

Mund's wagon trail? That's got plenty of 30 mph downhill, AND plenty of milk crate sized boulders at the sasme time! How about Damifino? Killer Bee? Good to the Last Drop? G-Spot? Skidmark? Ken's Trail? Under the Radar? Scheurman's to Pyramid? Second Coming? Brewer? Any one of these SEDONA downhill trails has stuff gnarlier than the gnarliest trails in most parts of the country. And did you miss the part about testing them on two seperate trips to Boulder City, NV? Oh yeah, have you ever even been to Zion, and ridden The Flying Monkey? Check out the trail reviews for Flying Monkey on this site, and then come back and tell me again that I don't know what DH is all about...


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*They will come as a proprietary set*

consisting of bottom bracket, cranks and pedals. They will fit standard frames, with options for 68, 73, 83 and 100 millimeter bottom brackets.


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## Lollapalooza (Jul 20, 2006)

So, in the future, will you be able to use them with standard cranks?


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## xy9ine (Feb 2, 2005)

^that's where you'll lose a heap of potential customers. i was all over these untill you brought up proprietary cranks. that's a large investment for a new unproven design; most people will be reluctant to buy into a full proprietary crank / bb / pedal system. one of the components goes south & you've only got one source (with limited availabily) for replacement. at worst you'll have to replace the whole system (if the company goes under, or you decide you want to change one component). silly. if you can build the pedals on a conventional crank interface, you're much more likely to turn some decent numbers.


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## yoginasser (Sep 14, 2006)

Bike Doc said:


> consisting of bottom bracket, cranks and pedals. They will fit standard frames, with options for 68, 73, 83 and 100 millimeter bottom brackets.


When Bike Doc?
I would like to order a set.


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## SnowMongoose (Feb 18, 2007)

this is starting to sound spendy...
good luck holding interest!

(still curious when!)


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Bike Doc said:


> Mund's wagon trail? That's got plenty of 30 mph downhill, AND plenty of milk crate sized boulders at the sasme time! How about Damifino?


Yeah, as well as other places around sedona. It ain't no "DH" mecca, you push your bike up a drop and then ride back off of it. Munds? Yeah, that's the ONE trail that goes downhill from near the top. You're only fooling yourself if you think munds is anything special. Go ride the DH trails in flag or South Mountain more. Sedona is sorry for DH and FR, but it gets a lot of attention due to the views.


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## Havefaith (May 8, 2006)

lelebebbel said:


> That is true, but irrelevant. I don't really think that the pedal body itself limits the stiffness on any conventional pedal. Instead, it is the axle itself - the part with the smallest cross section by a huge margin*, and it has to carry the highest moment because it is between the riders foot and the crank.
> 
> *the thinnest part of the axle is only as wide as the *inner* diameter of the inner pedal bearing. And the outer diameter of that is limited by the thickness of the pedal body.
> 
> In fact, I can see an advantage here for the flypaper pedal.


I dont disagree with what you are saying regarding the axle, bearing and pedal body ( I have taken a pedal apart). In a standard pedal, the axle acts as a sort of backbone, providing the main load bearing capacity and stiffness. However, these pedals are so thin, that the OD of a standard pedal's alloy steel axle is probably the same, or nearly the same as the aluminum body of the pedal (the main selling point of the pedal itself). This would result in an overall stiffness (and ultimate load) higher than the aluminum body.

But my main point was not to criticize the pedal design, but merely to clear up some common misunderstandings. I feel that this design is probably closer to an optimum balance of weight, thickness and robustness than the standard platform out there today.


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## downhillross13 (Jun 21, 2006)

if they were shaped like a normal pedal, i'd be down for sure, the shape looks like a 3 year old tried to draw a circle


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## Djponee (Dec 20, 2006)

definitely wierd lookin, and i don think i would run them


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*YOU push YOUR bike to the top...*

I RIDE mine UP and then down, with FlyPaper Pedals!


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Form Follows Function*

There are performance reasons for everything about the shape and dimensions of FlyPaper Pedals. Bottom line is that they work and work well. Better, in fact, than what I had envisioned. If you are too concerned about what a part of your bike looks like rather than how it performs, I heard that they have some really pretty colors this year at MallWart...


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## Flat tyres (Nov 6, 2006)

What if you slip a pedal and it comes around and severs your achillies tendon? Very cool concept, but I've been attacked by pedals before.......but never ones that look like chinese stars.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Yes, they will be*

a bit spendy. Hayes hydraulic disc brakes cost 5 to 10 times as much as generic v-brakes. An Iron Horse Sunday costs about 25 to 30 times as much as a MallWart full suspicion bike. Maxxis D.H. tires cost 7 to 8 times what department store junque tires cost. The price of just about everything is going up ^^^^^ !!! GET A JOB!!!


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*I've spoken with several larger companies*

about liscensing the design. Whichever one I finally decide to go with, you can rest assured that they will be large enough and diversified enough in product lines to handle any warranty / replacement parts issues. As for the most commonly needed parts, the bearings are stock items that can be ordered from QBP or BTI and probably a dozen or more other distributers, and the traction pins are a low cost, stock item at your local hardware store. The crank bolts will also be a standard, hardware store item, unlike most currently available crank / bottom bracket designs...

As for overall cost, yes, FlyPaper Pedals ain't gonna be cheap; the best never is. However I will do my best to keep the price as affordable to as many people as possible. I'm not looking to get rich off of these, just to make enough to support the research and development of a few other innovative designs that will hopefully help to re-define bike parts, the way I re-defined D.H. trails with The Flying Monkey, and re-defined freeriding with the Red Bull Rampage.

Most of all. I'm really just in it to get the bike parts that I've always wanted. Parts that are light, strong, durable, and most of all offer superior riding performance. Notice that I never made a dime from building The Flying Monkey, in fact, it cost me a lot of time and effort, and a little bit of money in trail tools and transportation. I merely wanted the ultimate trail for ME AND MY FRIENDS to ride. Same with the Red Bull Rampage. Between scouting the location, helping Global Event Management get the permits, Meetings with G.E.M., the B.L.M. and Red Bull; selecting and contacting the riders and getting them to show up, helping to set up the course boundaries, build jumps, carry the judges couch and several of the rider's bikes up the hill, and help with the filming, as well as having my shop closed several times to go do all this stuff, it ended up costing me well over 10 grand. But rather than look at the cost like so many people do, I just looked at what I wanted to do, and then figured out how to do it, _no matter what the cost_. And what I wanted to do was to have the very best riders in the world come to my back yard, and push the limits of freeriding to a place further than anyone else could even imagine, for my 40th birthday party. (The first year's Rampage was held Oct 18, 19, 20, and 21, 2001, and my birthday is Oct 22, 1961...) Hey wow! It's my birthday again today!!! What sort of magic to create this year??? Hmmmmm...


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*I'm hoping that they*

will be in production by this time next year. I know that's asking for a lot of patience, but realize that I first conceived this idea in November of 2000, and it took until June 14th of this year for me to first get to ride these! Why will it take so long? First, not many of the companies I spoke with at Interbike about liscensing the design are very interested until I get the Clip-in version built and tested. Secondly, I'm doing some minor re-designs to make them even better. Third, is that even after we get a liscensing agreement, there will be a bit of time needed to get tooling and production ramped up and get parts and materials sourced. I will however make sure that anyone who has expressed interest at this early stage be contacted and given priority in receiving some as soon as they are available.


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## A Grove (Nov 12, 2006)

What I was commenting on with the steel frame clearance is the fact that most frame builders who build out of steel dont use a yoke. Asking for 3" on the INSIDE of the CS's when building out of steel is quite a task. Especially if they're looking for short CS's. If you ask me, these are more geared towards the weight weinie urban/street riders, the guys who are willing to run PLASTIC (more or less PVC) to save a few pounds off their rigs. 

On most street rides, they are often trying to get the chainstays as short as possible, thus, they have to bend the stays fairly drastically to get good tire clearance. Which could possibly pose an issue for clearance.

And the part that turns me off most, is how incredibly hard this guy is trying to sell his pedal design over the internet. I feel like im reading the script for an info-mercial....


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*They're no sharper*

than any other platform pedals out there. The edge is 3.7 millimeters thick and is slightly rounded. On production models, they will probably be completely rounded into a half circle around the edges. The sharpest thing about FlyPaper Pedals is the traction pins, which are similar to the traction pins on about 100 other platform pedal designs. Best thing about your scenario, is that with FlyPaper Pedals, is that they are so grippy, that you will be far less likely to slip a pedal in the first place!


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## alant (Nov 17, 2005)

i really liked them and wanted pair until i found out about the proprietary crank.  oh well.


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## A Grove (Nov 12, 2006)

Bike Doc said:


> than any other platform pedals out there. The edge is *3.7 millimeters *thick and is slightly rounded. On production models, they will probably be completely rounded into a half circle around the edges. The sharpest thing about FlyPaper Pedals is the traction pins, which are similar to the traction pins on about 100 other platform pedal designs. Best thing about your scenario, is that with FlyPaper Pedals, is that they are so grippy, that you will be far less likely to slip a pedal in the first place!


you have made this more than obvious to anyone who has read 5 of your posts. You're real issue is how hard you're trying to get all of us to buy into your thought process. My suggestion is to stop sounding like an info-mercial and give proven facts. Things that make sense from a mechanical aspect, not just ideas that seem to make sense to you.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*The proven fact is*

that I have yet to sever either of my achellies (sp?) tendons. Nor has any of my friends or the dozens of riders that test rode them at Interbike's dirt demo days. What other facts would you like? Would you like to try them? You or anyone else who can make it to Sedona are welcome to try them on any trail here that you wish. Unfortunately, I can't afford the time and expense to bring them to all of you, but anyone passing through Sedona, feel free to contact me at (928) 399-9669 if you would like to ride the world's only true flat pedal!


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## A Grove (Nov 12, 2006)

Bike Doc said:


> that I have yet to sever either of my achellies (sp?) tendons. Nor has any of my friends or the dozens of riders that test rode them at Interbike's dirt demo days. What other facts would you like? Would you like to try them? You or anyone else who can make it to Sedona are welcome to try them on any trail here that you wish. Unfortunately, I can't afford the time and expense to bring them to all of you, but anyone passing through Sedona, feel free to contact me at (928) 399-9669 if you would like to ride the world's only *true flat pedal*!


:skep: ehhh.... my lopro2's are most definitally flat....

Thickness, and flatness are two different categories, my friend. I wasn't saying anything towards the tendon severing issue, that wasn't even my thought. I mean in general, the only thing you've brought to the table is what you have to say about the product, strictly opinion from what I've read.

All I'm saying is that you're trying ALL too hard to sell your little pedals. It sounds incredibly cheesy. Something I'd expect from an Info-Mercial.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Sorry Alant...*

There just isn't enough room with a 9/16" hole to put in a beefy enough bearing to withstand the amount of leverage, and there isn't enough clearance between the cranks and the chainstay on most bikes to have the inner bearing sit outboard, which means that for the inner bearing to sit inboard far enough, the crank arm had to be bored out much bigger. There are only a handful of cranks on the market that had enough material to even use for the prototype, and in fact, when I first conceived the idea in November of 2000, THERE WERE NONE! Just like when you wanted to add rear suspension to your bike, you had to purchase a new frame with the rear shock designed into it, and like when you first wanted to add disk brakes, you had to get a frame and fork that had brake mounting tabs built in; you will have to get a complete set of cranks and pedals to ride FlyPaper Pedals. And many modern cranks, including these have an integrated bottom bracket. The good news is that sooner or later you will either break or wear out or simply want to upgrade the rest of your bike, and at that time, you can spec your new bike with these. Of course until I work out the final details of the liscensing agreement, it will be impossible to know the actual cost, but it should be in line with what is currently available for upper-end components. And you've got a year or so until they will be available, so start saving your pennies now, or better yet go ride your bike a whole lot so that you can get really fast and we can find a reason to sponsor you!


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## sittingduck (Apr 26, 2005)

A Grove said:


> All I'm saying is that you're trying ALL too hard to sell your little pedals. It sounds incredibly cheesy. Something I'd expect from an Info-Mercial.


FFS, give it a rest already...


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## combatkimura (Jul 17, 2007)

Hey Bike Doc don't bother with naysayers. You are bringing innovation into the industry and you believe in your product. Defending your work on the internet with words is pointless, let the product come to fruition and be proven with use.


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## Kanga (Sep 14, 2004)

Bike Doc said:


> that I have yet to sever either of my achellies (sp?) tendons. Nor has any of my friends or the dozens of riders that test rode them at Interbike's dirt demo days.


I did get to ride them at the dirt demo and can definitely vouch for how well they performed, how solid they felt, and how much I'd like to have them on my next ride...... even though it was a flat dirt lot test, a few quick acceleration bursts is enough to tell that they worked as advertised.

I'd also like to see a set compatible with existing cranks, but the reality is that to improve the performance of one component, sometimes other components have to be modified to be compatible. Look at the history of headset and steerer tubes sizes, for example. I believe these pedals will cause a change in thinking and will probably set a new bar for the industry. Innovation is good... but comes at a price. Dollar wise, and in the cascade effect that new technologies have on the components connected to them.

My 2 cents worth... Dean, go get 'em into production :thumbsup:


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## mobile chernobyl (Apr 12, 2006)

The innovation part is true, with innovation usually all becomes better, except when ISIS took over... yuck. haha

Try to work on improving current crank desings/ bb interfaces while your at it BikeDoc - from the looks of your pedals you can probably come up with something new and revolutionary in the crank world as well. Hell think about it people, what makes our bike a bike and not a motorcycle? the cranks and pedals (ok think about it in an abstract way) so with these two items, things that see ALOT of use, we can group them and make something really sweet. we spend $500 plus on a nice fork, we dont actually have phyisical contact with it though. so with cranks and pedals, spending $500 on them (well hopefully a little less) doesnt really seem unrealistic if its going to be revolutionary. 

BikeDoc - focus your design efforts now on a revolutionary crankset and BB and you will have made a mark in cycling history. :thumbsup:


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Bike Doc said:


> There are performance reasons for everything about the shape and dimensions of FlyPaper Pedals. Bottom line is that they work and work well. Better, in fact, than what I had envisioned. If you are too concerned about what a part of your bike looks like rather than how it performs, I heard that they have some really pretty colors this year at MallWart...


Wurd. I HATE people who buy things based on looks. Cause its like ya, Sitting at the starting gate of the DH race run, i'm thinking about how I look. When Im just about to roll up to a 40 gap i'm worried how the bottom of my feet look? JESUS. People who care about bike looks are BAD PEOPLE. You can quote me on that


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Hollowtech II is pretty gnarly already


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## xy9ine (Feb 2, 2005)

interestingly enough, shimano did a similar low-profile flat w/ proprietary fat axle interface back in 1982 (the original xt group):


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## sriracha (Jun 23, 2004)

Bike Doc said:


> ...or better yet go ride your bike a whole lot so that you can get really fast...!


that's a great idea, dean. you logic is sound and makes sense.

i'd like to try a pair.

btw, are you the guy in the credits at the end of "ride to the hills", talking about watching the riders in person making a video is like being at a concert, instead of listening to the record?


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## alant (Nov 17, 2005)

No problem. My comment wasn't meant as criticism. I really think the product looks promising. I just wish there was a way to use one's crank of choice. Again, it looks like you got a good product there. Good luck with it! :thumbsup:


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*It worked!!!*

As I mentioned I was going to do last week, I finally got around to removing a few of the traction pins. Prior to that, I was running all the pins in both pedals, with 12 millimeter pins in the left pedal for 4 millimeters of pin extension on either side of the pedal; and 10 millimeter pins on the right pedal for 3 millimeters of pin extension on either side, with no noticeable difference in traction on either pedal. After removing several pins from both pedals, the left one became noticeably grippier, but the right one stayed about the same, which prompted me to switch the 10 millimeter pins on the right pedal out for some 12 millimeter pins, making it as grippy as the left one!


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## Flat tyres (Nov 6, 2006)

salmanq said:


> Hi, this post is very informative; however I would like some specific information. If someone can help me then please send me a private message. Best Regards,
> 
> Property Directory  | Wholesale Billiards
> Wholesale Batteries
> Something Directory


Please send us some property, alot of undeveloped property, on a mountain. And build us a lodge with like 20 billiard tables, that run on batteries.

Here's your private message: go fvck youself.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*According to Kris Baughman*

A.K.A: "Krispy" of "Down", "Double Down", "Third Down" and "Union" fame, who test-rode the FlyPaper Pedals at Intrebike's Dirt Demo Days; he said that he was looking forward to getting a pair for doing big jumps and drops, BECAUSE they were less likely to roll under his feet upon landing, thus making it less likely to tweak an ankle or slip a foot off of the pedal... but maybe you know more about big jumps and big drops than Kris...


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Probably about 1 - 1 1/2 years...*

If everything goes as I think it is likely to, I should be able to fine tune the design of FlyPaper Pedals and secure a liscensing agreement in time to have a finished product in production by next year's Interbike, so that lots more people can try them at the Demo Days; and then available through distributors by around X-mas of '08 to early spring of '09...


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*You are a smart man!*

You commented that this is a good STARTING POINT. And that's EXACTLY what it is... nothing about the design is written in stone. The bearing dimensions may change. The spindle may end up being thicker OR thinner! The pedal body may also end up being thicker or thinner. Thinner than 3.7 mm, you ask??? yes, because this first pair is made out of 7075 T-6 aluminum, but we are also working on another version made out of a special grade of steel developed for Boeing, which will most likely end up being less than 3 mm thin AND be even stronger and more durable than the 7075 version. (The steel version will be a bit heavier, but still reasonable light.) As you may have read elsewhere on this thread, last week I started playing around with the number and height of the traction pins, and I will also at some point play with different pin spacing and patterns. Even the shape of the outside edge may change, and of course any production model made from aluminum will be anodized to add both bling factor and a tougher outer surface. I have other changes in the works, but I can't mention them yet, as they may result in additional patents, if they work out as planned...


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*Yes,*

that's me.


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## konut (Mar 25, 2006)

i used to get sucked into the bulls**t and marketing hype that came with dh and freeride.

then one day i realised that these are sponsored riders,and dont give a toss about there components so long as they get paid.

if you ask me which i honestly dont think you will,is this them there flypaper pedals could be marginally thicker but then they wouldnt pull in as much intrest.

im pretty sure that there needs to be innovation but when a giant like shimano try something and then drop it theres usually a reason.

and all the name dropping of the riders that apparentley want to try your pedals is just marketing hype,and you are using mtbr as you hook,and i aint gonna be nobodys ginueapig.


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## SnowMongoose (Feb 18, 2007)

yeah konut, you show him who is boss!


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## tomacropod (Jul 23, 2004)

konut said:


> im pretty sure that there needs to be innovation but when a giant like shimano try something and then drop it theres usually a reason.
> 
> and all the name dropping of the riders that apparentley want to try your pedals is just marketing hype,and you are using mtbr as you hook,and i aint gonna be nobodys ginueapig.


You're saying that because Shimano dropped the oversized bearing concept in the 1980s it isn't relevant today? Shimano used that system to:

Increase the aerodynamics of the system, the Dura-Ace EX/AX series
reduce the tread/Q-factor of the pedals
to lower the pedal so that it self-corrected
and to make the bearings last longer (I don't think this one worked)

They had a few revolutionary designs in those groupsets, some of which were great but almost all of which were dropped. The world wasn't ready for them. The Flypaper pedals are using a similar design for completely different reasons, I don't think you can compare them to Shimano's design.

your mtbr membership is not dependent on you being a guineapig, you can choose not to buy them. It's not a Lada, after all.

- Joel


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## konut (Mar 25, 2006)

tomacropped...

im not saying they aint going to work,BUT with the new dura ace pedals they still have a axle running through the pedal there for even for mtb the dura ace will theoretically be stronger.

alluminum in different forms is pretty strong but in this application i cant see it holding up to well,yeah the theory is sound i even thought about similar system but that was for more reasons of outboard bearings.

yeah i know i dont have to buy but i am also allowed an opinion on things that i find that may or may not work.


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## Kanga (Sep 14, 2004)

Dean, just wondering how the flypaper pedal development is coming along.


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## norbar (Jun 5, 2007)

Bike Doc said:


> ... and Richard Cunningham had good things to say about them as well.


You've just lost half of the forum with this but if you got the $$$ to make him suggest them to every heckler/nomad I'd be golden


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## mothahucker (Feb 6, 2006)

hmmm, wouldn't running these pedals have the same effect as lowering your bb half-an-inch? Too bad they really don't look strong enough for serious abuse.


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## ducktape (May 21, 2007)

mothahucker said:


> hmmm, wouldn't running these pedals have the same effect as lowering your bb half-an-inch? Too bad they really don't look strong enough for serious abuse.


Ha ha, I guess low profile tires for bike will be the next hot thing

I like the innovation of the idea, I may be tempted to try them if I needed new pedals, but considering they need special cranks well I don't think so unless the cranks too can offer something above & beyond what's currently on the market.

In reality I reckon other products in a similar price range that have excellent engineering would win my $$ (straitline or something along those lines)


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## lelebebbel (Jan 31, 2005)

mothahucker said:


> hmmm, wouldn't running these pedals have the same effect as lowering your bb half-an-inch?


No. A lower BB means less ground clearance. Thin pedals give you a lower center of gravity and MORE ground (pedal) clearance.


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## CrustyOne (Oct 29, 2007)

BikeDoc...what testing have you done?


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

What is the latest on these pedals? 

I would buy them


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## moshelove (Jun 8, 2005)

I think they are a great idea and would love to try some.


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## wyrm (Jan 19, 2004)

When I first saw them back in Oct... I was intrigued. After seeing this tread... I am turned off. 

Bike Doc is pompous and self serving. Name dropping and being condescending does not help his cause. I have not seen that much aggressiveness since Tony Ellsworth frequented the forums. What kind of business man is he going to be to his customers. Most likely he will not stand behind his product... I can already hear him, "the product is flawless, you must not have been using it for its intended purpose... we can't warranty you (rider error)."


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## Big Mike (Oct 26, 2005)

CrustyOne said:


> BikeDoc...what testing have you done?


Real-world style. Dean is also the inventor of the "death-march". He rides hard and breaks stuff. He's also dedicated to A) riding with flats and B) riding up as well as down. True freerider.

DW what's up you nut? - Chris C. told me about riding these last week when I stopped through there, he was stoked on the concept. You've always been a thinker like that. I'd like to try a set myself.

You still have my e-mail addy? Hit me back...


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## Swass (Dec 17, 2007)

Any news on these?


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## Francesc (Sep 4, 2008)

any update?


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

I finally saw a pair in person this weekend at our local DH race. Pretty neat, but no chance I would drop $550 on a pair of pedals and crankset that will only ever work with each other.


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## nmpearson (Aug 13, 2007)

I don't like them...i saw a pair up close that was put in a vise and it literally flexed 1inch each way you pulled it with very little strength pulling it. Also, you can't put your feet close to the crankarm. I ride with my foot literally over the spindle and you can't do that with the pedals. The person who had them didn't like them either. totally not worth 550...


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

nmpearson said:


> I don't like them...i saw a pair up close that was put in a vise and it literally flexed 1inch each way you pulled it with very little strength pulling it. Also, you can't put your feet close to the crankarm. I ride with my foot literally over the spindle and you can't do that with the pedals. The person who had them didn't like them either. totally not worth 550...


Yeah, myself and another clyde were looking at them and debating how many runs it would take before we could bend/break them.


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## ducktape (May 21, 2007)

DirtMag Uk spotted them now, guess they'll have a review in the next few issues or something. But gee took them a while! They obviously don't read mtbr!


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

nmpearson said:


> .i saw a pair up close that was put in a vise and it literally flexed 1inch each way you pulled it with very little strength pulling it.


What flexed 1" either way (total of 2" of deflection????) The cranks? The pedals? Not saying I am a fan of them, but when I saw them at I-bike last year the prototypes did not appear to have flex when torquing on them


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## nmpearson (Aug 13, 2007)

sorry i didn't clarify, you put the pedal in a vise and grab the crank where the bb cup attaches and pull it up, and with little effort it'll move an inch or more either way.


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## HungarianBarbarian (Jul 24, 2008)

Sounds to me like a lot of people on here are upset(jealous?) that someone who rides came up with an innovation on his own and now might be able to go somewhere with it. The guy spent a lot of time and money to develop something that outperforms everything on the market in several ways. If it was atomlab or some other company that is cool right now half the haters would be asking when they could buy them.


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## Demodude (Jan 27, 2007)

*Whaaaaaaat?*



nmpearson said:


> sorry i didn't clarify, you put the pedal in a vise and grab the crank where the bb cup attaches and pull it up, and with little effort it'll move an inch or more either way.
> i know they're thin but i've heard whispers of a 5mm double du pedal in the works that has a normal spindle from one a pretty pimp company


Thats the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard and is a complete lie. Even if you tried to get a 3 or 5 mm plate of aluminium to flex it would be 1-3 mm- not a freaking inch and not an inch either way. Who would even attempt to put a product to the market with that much flex/ play in the pedal.
You sir are lying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And you are a hater.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2008)

Demodude said:


> Thats the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard and is a complete lie. Even if you tried to get a 3 or 5 mm plate of aluminium to flex it would be 1-3 mm- not a freaking inch and not an inch either way. Who would even attempt to put a product to the market with that much flex/ play in the pedal.
> You sir are lying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And you are a hater.


I think he is saying the end of the crank arm moves an inch either way when the pedal is in the vice, which given that the flex would be amplified over the 175mm length of the crank arm which is feasible. The pedal itself would only be flexing a few mm at the point.

Still after seeing them in person and getting an up close look, there is no way I would drop the $550 on them for something that proprietary. But then again I won't ride and Shimano gear either for the same reason.


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## nmpearson (Aug 13, 2007)

Yeah...so i'm not so sure you should call me a liar. there was 5 people standing there when the person who had the pedals showed us. yes it was where the on the end of the crank. I'm not being a hater because i love the idea, but they honestly aren't that great of engineering. They need to be tweaked imo. there is a better product though coming out sometime that i'm going to hold out for


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## HungarianBarbarian (Jul 24, 2008)

Your experiment doesn't even come close to simulating the same load that will occur while riding. I'm definitely not calling you a liar but anyone who understands basic physics and engineering could see that putting force on the end of a long lever while probably only clamping a small portion of the pedal in the vise is not the same load.


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

nmpearson said:


> sorry i didn't clarify, you put the pedal in a vise and grab the crank where the bb cup attaches and pull it up, and with little effort it'll move an inch or more either way.
> i know they're thin but i've heard whispers of a 5mm double du pedal in the works that has a normal spindle from one a pretty pimp company


That's probably just the crank flexing. Hop on a set of Saints even (which are awezome) and attach any pedal. You can see it flex back and forth as you apply different amounts of pressure on the pedal. This "test" you've done is pretty meaningless.


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## Demodude (Jan 27, 2007)

nmpearson: with the correct leverage I can get a car to lift off the ground too.......lol
Remember, your weight is btw two pedals and the test you were doing was like flexing the entire bike against one pedal. I think every pedal on the market would fail your same test. Ok, your not a liar, just uninformed about basic physics.


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## KavuRider (Sep 22, 2004)

sixsixtysix said:


> I think he is saying the end of the crank arm moves an inch either way when the pedal is in the vice, which given that the flex would be amplified over the 175mm length of the crank arm which is feasible. The pedal itself would only be flexing a few mm at the point.
> 
> Still after seeing them in person and getting an up close look, there is no way I would drop the $550 on them for something that proprietary. But then again I won't ride and Shimano gear either for the same reason.


I dunno...I'd probably be game to try them...

Who's bike where they on at CM?


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

KavuRider said:


> I dunno...I'd probably be game to try them...
> 
> Who's bike where they on at CM?


They were on Yares' Glory DH. After seeing them, I don't think I would be down to try them. I bet I could break them with my shopping cart style. The bearings in the crank arm were kind of sketch. I could maybe see them for a race application (which is what bike they were on) but not for a everyday rider.


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## nmpearson (Aug 13, 2007)

dude...stop being a jerk. I don't own or have ever sold a pair of pedals that move that much. I have some track pedals in my shop that would move less. I will say this for the last time. I love the concept. I absolutely love way flat pedals, but those ones i don't think i'd ever use


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## KavuRider (Sep 22, 2004)

sixsixtysix said:


> They were on Yares' Glory DH. After seeing them, I don't think I would be down to try them. I bet I could break them with my shopping cart style. The bearings in the crank arm were kind of sketch. I could maybe see them for a race application (which is what bike they were on) but not for a everyday rider.


Well, I'm a super smooth pro rider, so I'd probably be ok 

I'd like to try them, just like the Hammerschmidt, but $500 is a lot of change to be a guinea pig.

I think the innovation is cool!


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## flOw dOwn (Feb 19, 2008)

sixsixtysix said:


> They were on Yares' Glory DH. After seeing them, I don't think I would be down to try them. I bet I could break them with my shopping cart style. The bearings in the crank arm were kind of sketch. I could maybe see them for a race application (which is what bike they were on) but not for a everyday rider.


I was checking them out on Yares' bike up there. I gave the pedal a spin with my hand and it didn't move a full rotation. I don't know how long he's had them, but the bearings seamed to be toast already. Sketch to say the least, unless you don't mind pedaling resistance.


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## KavuRider (Sep 22, 2004)

flOw dOwn said:


> I was checking them out on Yares' bike up there. I gave the pedal a spin with my hand and it didn't move a full rotation. I don't know how long he's had them, but the bearings seamed to be toast already. Sketch to say the least, unless you don't mind pedaling resistance.


Aren't they still prototypes though?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I was just blown away that every other bike at CM had flat pedals. I'd expect to see a few spd holdouts, but nope, no one else. At least I got to feel special (like special ed).


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

He tells all the ladies his few mm is a foot on a regular basis...

Sorry for the low blow nmpearson, but that childish remark just had to be made 

With the pedal in the vice - was it the very outside edge of it being clamped, or having it clamped as close to the crankarm as possible? Just trying to determine if the flex is coming from the pedal body itself, or the bearing/spindle interface?

I sure am hoping to get another look at them this year at I-bike. I do not recall seeing that much movement last year.



Demodude said:


> Thats the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard and is a complete lie. Even if you tried to get a 3 or 5 mm plate of aluminium to flex it would be 1-3 mm- not a freaking inch and not an inch either way. Who would even attempt to put a product to the market with that much flex/ play in the pedal.
> You sir are lying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And you are a hater.


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## bykeworx (Nov 19, 2007)

Nice work Dean, 
What gets me them most about these pedals is that not a single one has sold. The two guys that made these busted their butts doing so, and I can be darn sure that this pedal won’t just snap under some fat ass. I can also tell you that the bearings won’t explode, and what ever crankset Dean chose to put them on is good enough for you! I have a low tolerance to the ******** in the bike industry. Ever year a new coat of paint goes on a bunch of the same old stuff and people will drop the cash $$$ on a new look, but when a real innovation comes from practical thinking it gets crapped on. That just makes me cringe. 
I ride my bike because I enjoy it, I like it more when it works better, if it looks good then great, if not; what’s new? If you want to talk about how terrible the pedal is, try it first, and then tell us how it felt when you rode them! They are built to last, these are not to be compared with any magnesium pedal for strength and durably. I don’t know if they come in steel yet, but they probably will, and they will probably out last the rest of your components. So the money you save every year by not buying a new set of pedals, you can keep. ;-) 
Another thing: You have to spend $$$ for this pedal because some one else spent $$$$. When it turns out that the idea is bomb proof (which it is) and a big company will indorse the design, then you can have this pedal for a bit less money. Until then you could be one of the people that made it happen. We don’t need scientists to tell us when a pedal is better. Just think about it for a second; if you could keep your foot from flying off and slamming your shin into the cleats on you pedal at 100 mph, would you? It might not happen that often for you pros, but when it does you remember it, right? And there are plenty more advantages to go around. Too darn bad I don’t have a bike worthy of this pedal but for those of you who do: Can I ask what are you waiting for?? 

Dean Williamson and Tim Wright did a lot of good old real hands on work to make this pedal happen; it’s a shame all we have to do is ride them. 
Tim Wright by the way is a pimpomatic machinist dedicated to doing the best work humanly possible. I’m not kidding; if there was a technical problem in the mechanics it would have been found. So ask your questions, but know that they are not original.


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

i don't know what all the hate it about. I would possibly buy them is i was able to test them.


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## jf951 (Jun 16, 2008)

i love the arm chair engineers in this thred
u would assume that if a company is gonna drop a few hundred thousand to produce a product theyed get people who knew a little more than the average kid who rides a bike 2 days a week and sits on the computer for the rest.

it is what it is.
like it or hate it. but dont try to sound like ur gonna out smart some guy whos getting a paycheck sealed with bling bling


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## bykeworx (Nov 19, 2007)

boogenman: If you ever get to Sedona I'm sure you could test them as much as you needed. If you're not able to test them out, I would suggest you call Dean and talk with him about the pedals. Dean is a genuine guy. He'll talk with you.



Bike Doc said:


> You or anyone else who can make it to Sedona are welcome to try them on any trail here that you wish. Unfortunately, I can't afford the time and expense to bring them to all of you, but anyone passing through Sedona, feel free to contact me at (928) 399-9669 if you would like to ride the world's only true flat pedal!


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## frisky_zissou (Jun 4, 2006)

If I could try them. And like them (which I am sure I would), I would buy them. Get some of those out there and let people experience them. IMO a good pedal can make up for crank restrictions.


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## bobnarly (Aug 10, 2004)

flOw dOwn said:


> I was checking them out on Yares' bike up there. I gave the pedal a spin with my hand and it didn't move a full rotation. I don't know how long he's had them, but the bearings seamed to be toast already. Sketch to say the least, unless you don't mind pedaling resistance.


the tension is adjustable. free spinning pedals are stupid. if i take my foot off of any pedal, i dont want it spinning like a top when i go to put my foot back on- i want it right where i left it.


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## bobnarly (Aug 10, 2004)

*in my opinion.....*

I Love My Flypaper Pedals! Sickly stickly! omg these things frickin kick ass! they look like weapons or something! and under my 5-10 shoes they are incredible! superstrong, super stiff, i have a new favorite pedal.riding them was comparable to getting my first pair of shimano dx flat pedals back in like 86, or my first rides w/spds.


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## bykeworx (Nov 19, 2007)

Wow, 
This is the first time I have seen the final result of the CNC machining. Simply beautiful, a exquisite example of the brilliant minds behind the design and construction. Contoured edges, chamfered holes, adjustable setscrews. Crisp, refreshing, and basically bad ass: I have a thing for good machining. 
Big thanks bobnarly for being the first... and congratulations, I would say you are riding the worlds best pedals!

I hope we can look forward to many more paradigm shifting designs forthcoming from the Dean.


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## flOw dOwn (Feb 19, 2008)

bobnarly said:


> the tension is adjustable. free spinning pedals are stupid. if i take my foot off of any pedal, i dont want it spinning like a top when i go to put my foot back on- i want it right where i left it.


Go ahead and set the tension on your pedals how ever you like then guy. Personally I don't think it's that hard to find one of the two flat sides of a flat pedal after I rarely take a foot off, especially if it is 5mm thick. I'd rather deal with that than have rotational resistence when I'm hammering. To each their own... guess that's why they are adjustable. The one's I saw felt like they were packed with gum.

I've got a pair of 7 year old flats sitting around that you might be interested in though. I'll give you a sweet price on them. Bearings are in pretty bad shape, but sounds like it wouldn't bother you much :thumbsup:.


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## Bike Doc (Oct 2, 2007)

*nmpearson is NOT a liar...*

N.M.Pearson is NOT a liar! Nor is he an engineer. And he doesn't appear to have a very astute analytical mind or very keen observational abilities. The test that he describes is a non-test. It does not prove or disprove anything, except for proving that he doesn't know how to construct a proper test!

Has anyone here ever heard of bio-mimicry?

Let's look at a tree. It is quite thick at the base of the trunk, and tapers thinner and thinner as the trunk rises. The branches are thinner yet, and they also taper toward the ends. As the tree branches more and more, the branches get thinner and thinner. Finally, the twigs at the tip of each branch are quite tiny.

Now, imagine cutting the tree off at the base of the trunk, and flipping it around, and then planting one of the twigs in the ground. Let go of the tree, and it will stand there perfectly balanced on that thin twig, even when the wind blows, right? OF COURSE NOT!!! Why not? Because that is the opposite direction from how it is engineered to handle loads.

This is, in effect what N.M. Pearson saw done with the FlyPaper Pedals.

He saw someone clamp the outer edge of a FlyPaper Pedal in a vise and then grab the end of the crank that attaches to the bottom bracket, and flex it back and forth. This is the opposite direction from actual riding and crashing and rock bashing forces are applied to the pedals in real life. Instead of holding the outer edge of the pedal and applying force to the spindle end of the crank arm, what happens in the real world, is that the bottom bracket spindle is held in the frame, and forces are applied to the pedal. although the pedals are 3.7 millimeters thick for most of the surface area, they ramp up in thickness, ever so slightly, as you get closer and closer to where the bearing shaft is located on the inboard edge of the pedal. this gradual ramping up of thickness, is in direct proportion to the amount of leverage at any given point on the pedal body, thus transferring the load quite evenly clear in to the crank arm.

An interesting demonstration is to stand beside any bike, with the closest crank arm in the six o'clock position. Place your foot on the outer edge of whatever pedal you have. Now, push straight down as hard as you can. Most people with any significant amount of leg strength, when they first try this, are amazed at how far inward their crank arm flexes. (Your frame and rear wheel will also flex a bit, but what flexes most on any bike I've ever tried this on is the cranks, no matter what brand or model.) On many models of cranks, I can make the end of the crank arm flex inward over half of an inch by doing this. Even my Profile chromoly BMX cranks do this...more than you might ever imagine.

I've posted (or at least attempted to) some photos to illustrate this. One shot shows the pedal held in a vice, the way that N,M, Pearson describes doing. A couple of others show a FlyPaper Pedal close-up, to show how the thickness gradually ramps up toward the bearing shaft. And another one shows me, at 205 lbs plus gear, launching a stupid-sized drop to a flat, slickrock landing, something I do frequently to test the pedals.

One final note... I will be at Interbike's Dirt Demo(lition) Days on this next Monday and Tuesday, with a few bikes that are set up with FlyPaper Pedals. We don't have our own booth, but I know several people who do, and I'm sure that I will be able to partner up with one of them, just haven't figured out who, yet. So, for any of you who are in the industry, or know someone from your local shop who is going, here is my cell number. Call me and find out where I end up, and you can demo them yourself, on some of the most rugged terrain on the planet, and see for yourself how well they work. I encourage anyone who test rides them to go as big as they ever do, as well as to try to bash them into rocks as much as they can, at whatever speed they want!

Dean Williamson
Momentum Bicycle
(928) 399-9669


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## flOw dOwn (Feb 19, 2008)

A Grove said:


> Steel is not heavier, is its rather lighter. Aluminum is weaker by a fair stretch.


Sources i found list aluminum at 2.7 g/cubic cm and various grades of steel at around 8 g/ccm. Most sources state that aluminum is very light and strong for its unit weight... as strong as steel. Maybe you're right and the whole bike industry is wrong though, we should all be riding steel frames.


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## bobnarly (Aug 10, 2004)

*"guy"*


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## mrpercussive (Apr 4, 2006)

pretty... if i rode flats, those would be on my bike...


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## Squatch_ (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm on the thinner is better bandwagon for pedals. That said, there's no way I would go for a proprietary system. I understand that engineering may be better, but for me my bike seems to be in a constant state of disrepair, and the ability to swap parts is more valuable (to me) than ideal pedal thickness.

Figure out a way to run them with normal cranks in the production model and I'll probably buy them.


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## ptsgrafitti21 (Dec 17, 2007)

can these only be run with fsa cranks?


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## mobile chernobyl (Apr 12, 2006)

Can I get a price estimate for a pair of 83mm X 165 Cranks and a set of these pedals?

Also can you weigh that complete setup (Bottem bracket, cranks, pedals) for me? 

Thanks, you've got a great product here. Don't worry about all the naysayers - people are naturally afraid of change, especially a drastic change in what they're used to. I see this a very good change however, and I'm very interested in answers to the question's above, you can reply publically or by private message. Thanks


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## flyag1 (Jun 9, 2007)

what the heck, I can't find the checkout button?


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## bobnarly (Aug 10, 2004)

*creating momentum....*

I Love Bikes...wrenching, riding, and building....
remember the good old days when making your own stuff was cool?
remember bike shops that built bikes? and i mean welded and assembled bikes?
bikes w/ the shops name on it, not some corporate conglomerates decal? 
how many of us can run a welding torch of any type? or run a lathe?or miter tubing?
I grew up in mechanics' shops and there is nothing better than making a part or original piece of equipment from scratch as an improvement on design or just a true innovation.. 
you can tell in this thread that there are a lot of people out there who have no nice things to say and too much time on their hands to say those not nice things.look at the # of posts compared to how long some of these guys have been members and it makes you wonder if they spend more time riding or typing....:skep: 
Questioning something new is normal. fear of change is being a coward. talking smack and flaming people on internet boards is being a hater.:nono: 
These are the coolest parts i have installed on any bike since my first disc brakes and long-travel suspension. I feel lucky to have them and show them to everyone who will look and most of the time i dont have to say anything, people ask me. dean is a great guy and I wish him all the luck in the world w/ his product. check the new decline for the first major-mag review. my hands hurt from all this typing- gotta go ride:thumbsup:


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## bobnarly (Aug 10, 2004)

*right here-*



flyag1 said:


> what the heck, I can't find the checkout button?











hit up bikedoc he's the man


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Now if only they were available on the HammerScmidt setup..........


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## Ojai Bicyclist (Nov 4, 2005)

006_007 said:


> Now if only they were available on the HammerScmidt setup..........


...So if you have rear suspension your bike will pedal like crap 100% of the time!


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## 08nwsula (Oct 19, 2005)

can we delete this thread? I am really sick of seeing it...


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## albertomannil (Nov 25, 2007)

08nwsula said:


> can we delete this thread? I am really sick of seeing it...


+1.


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## sittingduck (Apr 26, 2005)

bobnarly said:


> Questioning something new is normal. fear of change is being a coward. talking smack and flaming people on internet boards is being a hater.:nono:


Quoted for truth!


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## Ojai Bicyclist (Nov 4, 2005)

08nwsula said:


> can we delete this thread? I am really sick of seeing it...


Then don't click on AND reply to it, thus bumping it to the top.


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## vik (Oct 13, 2005)

I met up with Dean from Momentum Bicycle in Sedona and I shot a short video while he went over the features of his Flypaper MTB pedals.

Video Part 1

Video Part 2

He is a super nice guy and has a very cool product. It's great to see people come up with an idea and actually make it happen...:thumbsup:


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## Ironchefjon (Mar 23, 2007)

these things look sick gnar. I'd give em a whirl if I wasn't a poor college kid.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ptsgrafitti21 said:


> can these only be run with fsa cranks?


Not necessarily, but your current cranks may not have enough material to allow the pedals to be installed. The process involves reaming-out that area to increase the diameter.

I've seen the pedals in action now, flats are not my thing, but they do what they claim and hold up. Pretty neat idea.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Wow Dean is rocking some high end leg armor.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Jim311 said:


> Wow Dean is rocking some high end leg armor.


I love the tape


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## Freerydejunky (Sep 21, 2006)

I dig them, thanks for the video. Really interesting.


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## Nickle (Aug 23, 2006)

vik said:


>


What leg armor is that anyway?


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## michaelsnead (Aug 31, 2005)

*FSA Gravity GAP Cranks and the FSA Gravity Maxximus Only*



Jayem said:


> Not necessarily, but your current cranks may not have enough material to allow the pedals to be installed. The process involves reaming-out that area to increase the diameter.
> 
> I've seen the pedals in action now, flats are not my thing, but they do what they claim and hold up. Pretty neat idea.


Hi Jayem,

I asked Dean if his pedals would work with the Hammerschmidt cranks and he shared the following info on which cranks would currently work with his pedals:

"You are correct in your assumption that the FlyPaper Pedals will not work on the Hammerschmidt cranks. In order for a crank arm to be compatable with the FlyPapers, it must measure 38 millimeters by 14 millimeters across the center of the pedal hole. Otherwise, there is not enough material left to have the proper strength, after the cranks are modified. The 14 millimeter measurement is fairly common, but most cranks measure 36 millimeters or less in the other direction. At this time, there are only two cranks that I am aware of that meet this criteria, the FSA Gravity GAP Cranks and the FSA Gravity Maxximus Cranks. It would be great if Truvative would make the Hammerschmidt wider at the pedal end, but I don't see it happening anytime in the near future. What would really be great would be for them to make crankarms with the bearing cups forged right into the end of them. Eventually we hope to be able to produce our own crank sets, but that requires expensive equipment that we do not yet have."

I love the idea of these pedals and hope to acquire a set this season.

Thanks,

Michael:thumbsup:


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

I think a better name would be "Fly Squaters", or spell it in a funky way like "Fligh-skwotters or Fly-Skwotters" (i dont know)due to the fact that in all sincerity, they actually DO look like a fly squater you would employ to flatten the absolute smeg out of some unsusspecting fly. But generally I love the idea and I think its great that Dean is trying to make it happen. Also, he is a straight up guy to boot so some peeps just need to calm down on the BS-arm chair engineering pap, and go and try them...its free to demo them from what Dean has already stated if thats accounts for anything.

Dean, you want to send a pair to me here in J-Land and ill put them through some serious real world testing...oh wait, I cant...! I hvae a busted knee, meh!

Good luck with the refinements and I can say so far, your product is looking really good and really bolted down.

Best regards

Sim



dowst said:


> dean, if you work for a bike company and post on any forum on this website it is required that you say so in your signature.
> 
> I still like my idea better, but, i would be willing to try some out and give feedback on here. How much will they cost?
> 
> ...


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## flyag1 (Jun 9, 2007)

What's the cost to go thin? I would love to shed 5 weight!


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## Sim2u (Nov 22, 2006)

Dont forget though...it IS a prototype with plans nearing some form of production phase yet, he also stated that he may make various changes based on feedback etc etc...

However, as it gets nearer to finalization and realization the price may come down, the only draw back is its need for proprietary cranks. I do not need peddles THAT bad and I always ride clipless unless in tricking out at the local DJ or some more advanced FRing. Still, it is a solid design and one of the more fluent designs I have seen in a while with some very intuitive engineering in the manner of its function, dismantling and maintanence etc etc...


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Agreed - The Brown tape rocks.


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## zahgurim (Aug 12, 2005)

I'd buy a set if they worked w/Saints.


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## sq225917 (Dec 28, 2008)

If they worked with Saints i'd have them too.

But i'm not going to change, chainguides, chainrings, cranks and BB, just to get a pedal that's a few MM lower. I have no doubt it's a great design, that much is obvious. 

But until it works with the other components i want it makes no difference how good it is, i'm not going to drop proven parts for unproven benefits.


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## jimage (Dec 22, 2006)

if you could make a version with deity/bmx style cranks i would get a set and im sure it would be the same with alot of other dirt jumpers


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## P-townDave (Oct 12, 2006)

Funny. I didn't even see this thread till it got resurrected. I started looking through it and you can see people going from "stupid idea" to "maybe kinda cool" to "I want some if the cranks weren't an issue".

During that same time frame Atomlab's (excellent) idea for thin pedals started heading out to other manufacturers (i.e. Kona, Corsair, etc.) until the design is now probably (almost certainly) sitting in a little three ring binder in Taiwan alongside other generic pedal designs ready for any company that wants to mass-produce it there. . . Those of us that have ridden these thinner pedals can already vouch for the idea being solid - you don't slip or flip the pedal nearly as often. And the durability of my Wah Wah's is superior to my older Trail Kings and they're both a lot lighter than my durable, but tank-like Crank Brothers. Stuff's getting better all the time. Can't wait till Dean's ideas become mainstream as it represents the ultimate iteration of this concept. Here's to progress.

BTW - As far as comments about infommercial and name-dropping. I don't know all these people, but I know Krispy. I don't think he stands to gain anything by supporting this product. He is a bike sage and has never led me astray on an idea or product advice - even talking me out of getting more expensive product because he felt it wasn't as good for my needs. Out to improve the sport, not just make a buck.


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## xterrain (May 6, 2008)

AM, XC sure, but FR and DH, no way. Not to mention this sends all sorts of new shivers down my spine thinking of how it can follow a big rings lead and inbed itself in my leg somehow. Nope, flexy either way.

I dont think your taking into account the massive amount of G forces that are obtained on a big drop, sure they arent sustained but the spikes cause cracking/shattering where sustained pressure causes bends.

As for Sedona having DH everywhere like its Mecca to the Jews and Islam has moved out of the house next door...no. Go ride a world class track or even one that Red Bull or the WC use for races...I think the closest one to you is Angelfire, NM that includes it all. Talk about big drops, high speed, rock gardens, clipping rocks at 30-50mph, big air, and wood...[both kinds]...and you get the WC at Angelfire. Its bangin!

If they dont snap they'll end up in your calf, if they do snap they'll end up in your shin, if they just bend...they'll end up in your calf and you'll have a broken ankle from pedaling through them. No thanks.

Plus they're ugly.


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## Big Mike (Oct 26, 2005)

> What gets me them most about these pedals is that not a single one has sold. The two guys that made these busted their butts doing so, and I can be darn sure that this pedal won't just snap under some fat ass. I can also tell you that the bearings won't explode, and what ever crankset Dean chose to put them on is good enough for you! I have a low tolerance to the ******** in the bike industry. *Ever year a new coat of paint goes on a bunch of the same old stuff and people will drop the cash $$$ on a new look, but when a real innovation comes from practical thinking it gets crapped on*. That just makes me cringe.


Very well written dude.

I see a lot of naysayers here displaying a distinct lack of knowledge in the fields of mechnical engineering and physics. Especially the "vise test". The basic fact that your test is completely and utterly irrelevant to reality (because you performed it totally OPPOSITE to how a pedal would be loaded in the real world) just goes to show how little you really know. I'm here to tell you from personal experience, Bike Doc is one of the hardest riders you'll ever meet. He's not small, and he's not easy on his equipment. If he can't break them, there's no damn way in hell you're going to. If you don't like the concept, move on to something else.

Also, if any of you had actually gotten off of your lazy asses and put a bunch of time, effort, thought, money, blood, sweat, tears, etc. into developing an innovative product, don't you think you'd want to get on a public forum such as this one and promote it for Christ's sake?!? All of you guys who are tired of the "info-mercial", why do you keep coming back to this thread? Move on!

You guys who want the thread deleted cause you're tired of seeing it? Why the F*%K are you here looking at it AGAIN then? Did your mouse click itself? NO!! MOVE ON!!!

Dean, the production versions look fabulous. Sexy biatches for sure. I'm impressed. Big props dude.
I just happen to be running Gravity Gaps on my Can-Diggle already (I know good stuff when I see it) Can we work a trade or machine the arms I already have?


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## birkebeiner (Apr 15, 2008)

These are the coolest pedals ever! Where can I buy them, and will they fit to a standard Shimano XT crankset?? I want these on my xc mtb!  :thumbsup:


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## Nick_M2R (Oct 18, 2008)

Sorry
Interesting Idea, no doubt has benefits
However ill take a set of blue straitlines any day


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## NWfreeride (Jan 23, 2007)

birkebeiner said:


> These are the coolest pedals ever! Where can I buy them, and will they fit to a standard Shimano XT crankset?? I want these on my xc mtb!  :thumbsup:


The tab at the top of the page with the 1,2,3 on it indicates that there have been 3 pages of discussion on this thread before your post. Perhaps your questions were already answered, several times, in detail....


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## flyag1 (Jun 9, 2007)

All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer


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## seanzombie1336 (Jun 28, 2008)

Bike Doc said:


> There are performance reasons for everything about the shape and dimensions of FlyPaper Pedals. Bottom line is that they work and work well. Better, in fact, than what I had envisioned. If you are too concerned about what a part of your bike looks like rather than how it performs, I heard that they have some really pretty colors this year at MallWart...


Your attitude and arrogance is turning me off from this product. Basically, quit talking like a jack ass.

Oh... and many people DO care about how their bike looks. We spend several thousand dollars on a bicycle and then are asked to put your substantially expensive product on our bicycles, sometimes asthetics is going to be a factor.

I'm :skep: about your professionalism.


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

I wonder if this thread will ever die? Not many that are as controversial as this one.......


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## sq225917 (Dec 28, 2008)

They look like a great idea, most of the functionality is dialed, the mechanics certainly are and the ergonomics make all other pedals look like catwalk high heels in comparison.

But here's the rub.

No one, and i think that is the literal as in, 'not one person' will be willing to go out on a limb and swap cranks to get the pedals. The pedals themselves aren't an issue, the issue is that you are asking people to change a part that they have already selected for their bikes to use these pedals. 

No other component really asks the rider to swap other parts to use it, if there were other integrated pedal/crank systems out there already, then this wouldn't be such a huge ask. But the flypapers are asking you to try some radical pedals and change cranks to accomodate, and that is too much of an ask. 

It's the psychology of unwanted change that is the issue, not the product. People seem to get pissed off with this thread, that's a good sign, people don't emote if they aren't interested. I'd put good money that they aren't actually pissed off with the Doc or the pedals but rather pissed off with the fact that they want to try these, but can't. It's unspoken frustration.

Find a decent OEM, or slap them on some SAINTS, problem solved.


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## michaelsnead (Aug 31, 2005)

*+1*



sq225917 said:


> They look like a great idea, most of the functionality is dialed, the mechanics certainly are and the ergonomics make all other pedals look like catwalk high heels in comparison.
> 
> But here's the rub.
> 
> ...


Hi sq225917,

I think your coments are correct. I know I'd buy these in a flash if the expensive change in cranks weren't required. I may still go ahead and bite the bullet but it's the extra dollars that's stopped me so far.

Thanks,

Michael:thumbsup:


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

Honestly I don't think these are going to take off. 

Heres why: proprietary cranks and an angry owner. While they are ground breaking in terms of how thin they are, nobody wants to run (and i mean NOBODY) goes out of there way to run GAP cranks. They're huge heavy and there are stronger cranks out there for lighter weight. 

And so these will be ground breaking, and in the next couple months were going to see pedals as thin as these (I know of at least two companies in the process of bringing out similarly thin pedals within the next year) that DON"T require a proprietary crank. Will they be as strong? probably not. Will they be strong enough for your average punter? Almost certainly. Will they have the uber thin and light weight thing going? yup. 

Everybody told the doc he needed to find a way to not run a proprietary crank. Unless he does this, (and soon) his pedals are doomed to failure. 

Still though, if it weren't for the proprietary crank you could sign me up for some right now, they look sick, the machining is rad, and they look super high quality. I give props to the dude.


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## sq225917 (Dec 28, 2008)

likewise I'd be all over them..


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## michaelsnead (Aug 31, 2005)

*I got to ride these pedals on Live Wire today and......*

......HOLY MACKREL BATMAN....THEY ARE WONDERFUL!!!:eekster:

Sorry to shout but I was very impressed with the ride. I know it sounds crazy but for me it felt like I was inside the pedal instead of standing on it. One ride on an "A Line" style jump trail doesn't a review make but these were very sweet. I'd love to try them on an All Mountain ride in a technical climb. I certainly don't know how well they'd stand up to continued abuse but they felt rock solid on the jumps on Live Wire. Given my poor technique and propensity for flat landings that's saying a lot!

I also heard a rumor that Dean was trying to develop a version that doesn't require a replacement of cranks and bottom bracket. That would be the icing on the cake if true. Perhaps he'll be kind enough to shed light on that rumor.

Dean, congratulations and "Good on Ya" for creating this fantastic pedal!

Take care,

Michael:thumbsup:


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## Nick_M2R (Oct 18, 2008)

Dang, this thread just dosent let go!

After reading through it ive come to some conclusions

No doubt these pedals have benefits, however the 2 things IMO limiting its potential are:

1: the interface system, VERY few people will be willing to swap their cranks and BB for these, its a case of the cost outweights the benefits

2: they look like crap, no matter which way you slice it, people are vain, and looks play a major part in people buying parts. To increase its appeal, make it look nice, change the shape or offer it in some nice anodised colours


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## michaelsnead (Aug 31, 2005)

*A Clarification&#8230;..*

Hi Folks,

I made this mistake and thought I'd share this post to keep others from making the same error:

Bike Doc, the creator of the Fly Paper Pedal:
http://forums.mtbr.com/member.php?u=353880

and

traildoc, the unofficial ambassador for Sedona: 
http://forums.mtbr.com/member.php?find=lastposter&t=528703

_*Aren't the same person*_.:eekster: Apparently they both live in Sedona, AZ and I confused their Mtbr handles as I was reading their posts. I'm sure this distinction is obvious to those who know them personally but I was confused by the similarity of their screen names and thought them to be the same person. If I'm the only one who's made this mistake I apologize for taking your time.

Thanks,

Michael:thumbsup:


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Damn - I just sent traildoc a deposit for 3 sets of flypaper. Good thing it is bug season right now.....


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## wouterbiker (Dec 30, 2004)

i like the idea of a thin pedal.

just not really the crankset i have to use.

now i found this picture online:










could this be the answer??

grtz


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## nmpearson (Aug 13, 2007)

i just don't see why there's still conversation on these when the canfield brothers have seemed to solve all the problems;can use them on any crank, cheaper, and people can know they were engineered well
http://www.canfieldbrothers.com/products/pedals


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## Huck Pitueee (Apr 25, 2009)

Fantastic design! I don't care how they look if they work the way I immagine.I'm sure I wouldn't own them if I had to bore my cranks.


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## EarthChild-SS (Jul 2, 2009)

Dudes- This is as nonbiased as it gets for someone who's seen these puppies in action-
I got out of the Marines a few months ago, and went out to Sedona to ride for a few days, during which I got to see the NOD who invented these things thrash the ever-loving crap out of em with out so much as a squeak or wobble from them. He's a pretty burly guy too- probably 6'3, 215. I'm actually ordering a set for my UZZI VP this week. More leverage= good, if you have to pedal your arse up the mountain like most of us


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## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

nmpearson said:


> i just don't see why there's still conversation on these when the canfield brothers have seemed to solve all the problems;can use them on any crank, cheaper, and people can know they were engineered well
> http://www.canfieldbrothers.com/products/pedals


Too bad there are not a few more color options :nonod:


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## sq225917 (Dec 28, 2008)

wow a thin pedal with lumps in the middle right where you don't need them, cool. fanbois form an orderly queue.


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## monkei (May 1, 2007)

So these are not available alone to someone who want to attempt to bore/modify their own crankset to fit them??


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## eabos (Jun 11, 2005)

monkei said:


> So these are not available alone to someone who want to attempt to bore/modify their own crankset to fit them??


Holy thread revival! It has got to be some kind of a record


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## monkei (May 1, 2007)

eabos said:


> Holy thread revival! It has got to be some kind of a record


psssh, only 1.5yrs.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

This thread sums up the worst of the worst of what Mtbr is at times and exemplifies how f**king stupid most people are. They really should stick to watching Jerry Springer and drinking their bud lite or smoking their crack or what ever low life accomplishments they have managed so far during their useless existence. Or they are all low IQ teenagers and just need to be dismissed as such and definitely have their computer privileges revoked.

The guy is trying to push the envelope and make something better. What advancements to the sport have all the naysayers added to the pot? Sure there are some things to work out but 2 thumbs up for trying.

All you anti technological advancement a$$holes go buy yourself a Kmart bike from 1995 and wallow in your glory of mediocrity.

The only criticism I have for the FlyPaper inventor is that he responded to stupid questions. >:[


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## gticlay (Dec 13, 2007)

If only he worked with Shimano to do some SLX and Saint cranks with them......


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## buddhak (Jan 26, 2006)

modifier said:


> This thread sums up the worst of the worst of what Mtbr is at times and exemplifies how f**king stupid most people are. They really should stick to watching Jerry Springer and drinking their bud lite or smoking their crack or what ever low life accomplishments they have managed so far during their useless existence. Or they are all low IQ teenagers and just need to be dismissed as such and definitely have their computer privileges revoked.
> 
> The guy is trying to push the envelope and make something better. What advancements to the sport have all the naysayers added to the pot? Sure there are some things to work out but 2 thumbs up for trying.
> 
> ...


Right on.

Opinions, intuitive guesswork, superstitions...all are very poor substitutes for experience. I would love to try these pedals out. In fact, it looks like Taiwan has taken notice. You can't completely discredit the naysayers on the point of the proprietary cranks. This idea has to stand on its own merits in the end. If the visionaries who made this product haven't sold enough of them, they need to be frank about what is making people think twice about investing. Clearly, it is the cranks and the price of admission. If second best costs less than half as much, and if second best is pretty darn awesome (Burgtec, Podium, Canfield, etc...) then the Flypapers compete at a huge disadvantage. Regardless of the promised benefits. Maybe somebody will figure out how to manufacture such a spindle-less pedal that does what it must without the crank-arm compromise. That guy/gal is going to sell a ton of pedals.


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## G-FOURce (Aug 21, 2010)

i just clicked on the link from buddhak's post and here is the last sentence in the brief article about VP's version of these pedals:

_Pricing info has yet to be determined, but VP assures me it, "*It wont be stupidly expensive*."_

pushing the envelope, expanding innovation, advancement through technology and understanding... these are all good things. and being a rogue on the fringe can also be a good thing if your head and your ask are wired together properly. i love the concept here and i would absolutely buy a set were they somewhere in the vicinity of reasonably priced. unfortunately, even after the cost is offset by flipping the crankset being replaced,the gap between cash outlayed and value gained is still so wide (picture the Grand Canyon here) that the purchase sems nonsensical at best. this being the land of milk-n-honey, though, there is no shortage of people with more money than sense so i am certain they'll sell a few sets. :thumbsup:


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## colin1 (Jan 6, 2009)

buddhak - I thought it was an interesting time for this thread revival since I just saw this:









over at PinkBike this week:
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/taipei-cycle-show-random.html


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## HungarianBarbarian (Jul 24, 2008)

colin1 said:


> buddhak - I thought it was an interesting time for this thread revival since I just saw this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like the looks of that platform because it has the parallelogram shape and looks slightly concave but it is pretty lame that they released that without taking pictures of or even talking about the bearings and crank interface.


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## buddhak (Jan 26, 2006)

HungarianBarbarian said:


> I like the looks of that platform because it has the parallelogram shape and looks slightly concave but it is pretty lame that they released that without taking pictures of or even talking about the bearings and crank interface.


Ya mon. For sure I will not be the guy who writes the first review of these on MTBR.


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## saturnine (Mar 28, 2007)

flypaper, you've lost.


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## William42 (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm pretty sure flypaper lost when canfield and point one hit the market with their pedals. 

I'm curious to see how these pedals do, but I'm dubious.


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## HungarianBarbarian (Jul 24, 2008)

saturnine said:


> flypaper, you've lost.


Are you an employee of VP or just a pathetic person with no life?


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## SamL3227 (May 30, 2004)

why would any pedal that you need a "special" crankset for be able to "win" against something that is "standard" and "basically" the same thickness. i dont think that 1 or 2 mm makes toooooo much difference when it is basically thinner than the axle it rotates on.


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## buddhak (Jan 26, 2006)

William42 said:


> I'm pretty sure flypaper lost when canfield and point one hit the market with their pedals.
> 
> I'm curious to see how these pedals do, but I'm dubious.


Agree. Flypaper knocked it out of the ballpark with his groundbreaking concept, but pedal/crank interface was a problem. Who knows if these second gen. designs will be as sturdy as the originals. Time will tell.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

buddhak said:


> Agree. Flypaper knocked it out of the ballpark with his groundbreaking concept, but pedal/crank interface was a problem. Who knows if these second gen. designs will be as sturdy as the originals. Time will tell.


I agree....Dean put all his money into the design but failed when it couldn't be used on every bike...Groundbreaking Idea.


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## saturnine (Mar 28, 2007)

HungarianBarbarian said:


> Are you an employee of VP or just a pathetic person with no life?


definitely just pathetic. thank you for your concern.


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## buddhak (Jan 26, 2006)

The latest

Specialized is introducing their own version. Forgive the Pinkbike content. Looks too awesome for words...unless you are the Fly Paper guy. Still, at least his concept is catching on.


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## zburt (Jun 9, 2007)

What brand of pedal is the white pair saturnine?


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## michaelsnead (Aug 31, 2005)

zburt said:


> What brand of pedal is the white pair saturnine?


Hi Mr zburt,

It's a VP Freerider and here is all that I was able to find out about it:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=690529

Enjoy,

Michael:thumbsup:


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