# Moving Up: Symbiosis, El Conquistador, or Jefe?



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

We've been riding a Large Fandango 29er for the past two years. We tend to ride techncial trails, rarely do we ride double track. We run Ardent 2.4's, WB 100mm fork, and a large Thudbuster.

The Fandango has been a fun ride and we have enjoyed it immensely, BUT my stoker is getting beat up and I want a little more "control" and "feel". 

We moved from Tennesee to Eastern Washington last year, so the trails we ride have changed significantly. Where were riding in Appalachia, the trails were tight, clay, small hills, small terrain features, the Fandango worked well and my stoker (the lovely and talented Mrs. Nurse Ben) rarely complained.

Out in the West (North Central Cascades), the trails are fasty, rocky and sandy, and the hills are BIG. So far we have "managed" okay on the Fandango, but I think we're both looking for something a little different:

Nurse Ben wants: more traction under the front wheel, slacker steering, lower ride height, "I want to feel more like I'm in the bike versus on top of the bike".

Mrs. Nurse Ben wants: a little more cushion and a little more room to stretch, "I can't see what's coming and it just beats me up when I have to sit and pedal".

So, we have lots of options to consider:

Full Suspension, we are looking at both the Ventana and the DaVinci:

My wife is not very athletic, her endurance is significantly lower than mine, so we tend to ride shorter distances, at times I will ride while she walks because her legs burn up fast. I really don't anticipate her endurance improving...

The Symbiosis allows for independent pedaling, which is not a bad idea for her because then she could sit/stand and coast while I sit and pedal through rough terrain. Also, the rear suspension would be better for her overall comfort.

The Ventana El Conquistador is also a fine option, we pedal in sync now so it would be an easy transition to an El. The El is also significnatly less expensive than the Symbiosis. I have no idea how they might handle differently as I have never ridden either.

Rigid Fatty: The Ventana Jefe.

I ride a fat solo bike now, I have ridden fat unis, I believe that big tires are the real deal, they provide better traction and they literally ride over everything, but how does that translate to a tandem?

I just got off the Phone with Sherwood at Ventana, I bounced some ideas off him, including the possibility for a fatty full suspension. He told me that I was dreaming, at least for the immediate future 

He seemed to think that fat tires (in combo with a Thudbuster) would significnatly help with my stokers comfort and would help with traction, but for overall comfort he believed the El would be our best bet. 

If we had a Jefe, in the Winter and shoulder seasons I'd run Large Marge Lites (65mm), Floaters 26 x 4 or something similar in terms of side wall strength, a Bluto 100mm. The rest of the year I'd run a 650b+ on Dually's.

I lean toward the Jefe, cuz it's so darn cool, but what does my stoker deserve/need?

So, what say yea o' community of fellow tandem riders?


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## mhopton (Nov 27, 2005)

Sounds like you need 2 new tandems. Easy.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

I considered going to a Davinci for the road and getting rid of the Co-motion. Similar reasons as you. When the wifes asthma kicks in or whatever kicks in, I can not spin her legs and keep the speed.

Also, she gets too nervous in a paceline with singles and screws up the cadence pretty bad without knowing it.

For us, off-road, I doubt I could deal with independent pedalling. I would ride to conservative, fearing I would have huge pedal strikes and possible foot injury for my stoker.

I have never ridden a fat bike fast, even slow they seem a bit squirmy. Not sure how you can lace a fat bike over a full suspension for the terrain and riding you described.

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

mhopton said:


> Sounds like you need 2 new tandems. Easy.


That's kinda what I was thinking, but did not want to say it.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

We ride flats now, so were pretty good at keeping the feet on the pedals. We still get pedal strikes, it's very hard to telegraph a pedal strike to her as we have different "lines", so if she hits then she hits.

My thought on independent pedaling is that I can say "coast" while I pedal and plan my line for my pedal stroke. I haven't ridden a DaVinci, I have a sense that folks either like them or don't, sorta personal preference and what seems "normal". I'm a really strong solo rider, so I don't need stoker assistance often, more often than not I am asking her to back off as she tends to push too hard when we're doing slow-mo stuff.

Yeah, two tandems, but what I really want is an El that can run B+ tires and 4" tires, then I'd just have two wheelsets. Maybe a few years from now if Sherwood is willing.

Anyone know what the width is on the rear triangle of the El? Would it take a 70-80mm tire? My Fandango is not wide enough for anything greater than a Ardent 2.4 due to derailleur and chainline contact issues.

Sherwood though that the Jefe would be a good choice because it can run up to a 29+ tire, so it would be the most versatile...but it lacks rear suspension, so I might gain some advantage, but will my wife be more comfortable?

Lines in tech terrain are harder on 29er because they are so tall and roll so fast, often I found myself rolling over things simply because there is no other choice, other times I'm sliding off things because I got just enough (too much) or a rock or side slope.

Fat tires stick better and absorb terrain better, so at least I could bulldozer my way through things that I can't avoid. I think the fat tire would make a 26" wheel more tandem friendly, which is how it is with solo fat bike.

I run Floaters on my fat bike, which have a very firm sidewall, similar to an Ardent (possibly firmer), so they are not that squirmy. Add some pressure and they firm up just like a skinnier tire. One thing that might make a difference for my stoker is to run low pressure in a fat tire out back, this would cushion the ride and still have enough volume to prevent rim damage and pinch flats, then I ride higher pressure up front for control and the Bluto cushions the ride...

I wonder if there would be any rear wheel bounce with a fat tire on a tandem, this can be an issue with solo fat bikes when the pressure is low and the ride is fast. Anyone??



PMK said:


> I considered going to a Davinci for the road and getting rid of the Co-motion. Similar reasons as you. When the wifes asthma kicks in or whatever kicks in, I can not spin her legs and keep the speed.
> 
> Also, she gets too nervous in a paceline with singles and screws up the cadence pretty bad without knowing it.
> 
> ...


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## switchbacktrog (May 10, 2013)

> Anyone know what the width is on the rear triangle of the El? Would it take a 70-80mm tire? My Fandango is not wide enough for anything greater than a Ardent 2.4 due to derailleur and chainline contact issues.


This picture is a 2.4 Ardent in a 26" frame. There is only about 4mm clearance....................


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

That's looking tight all the way around, so I'm betting that Ventana is not going to make a custom swingarm to accommodate a B + tire... yup, that Jefe is starting to look good to me 



switchbacktrog said:


> This picture is a 2.4 Ardent in a 26" frame. There is only about 4mm clearance....................
> 
> View attachment 965170


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

You will get some bounciness on the Jefe just like you would on a single fat bike. Only one ride so far and it was on mostly packed snow. We ran about 10 lbs of pressure on 4.8 inch tires on 90mm rims.

DaVinci makes a great bike. We owned one a few years back. I like being able to put the cranks where I want them when maneuvering around obstacles, which does not work on the DaVinci. 

I will say that the upside of having ICS is that the stoker CAN backpedal a 1/2 turn when going up and over a small rock or ledge, which could minimize pedal strikes. This would assume that the stoker could either see the obstacle or that the captain communicates the obstacle and timing well.

Long story short, we are synched on all of our tandems now and it works well for us.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So ICS didn't do what I think it would do? Hmmm, well I don't really mind being synched since it's what we're used to. I don't think my stoker would pay attention to where her feet are going unless I warned her well in advance.

Does your stoker think the bouciness is a good thing compared to be "jarred"?



ds2199 said:


> You will get some bounciness on the Jefe just like you would on a single fat bike. Only one ride so far and it was on mostly packed snow. We ran about 10 lbs of pressure on 4.8 inch tires on 90mm rims.
> 
> DaVinci makes a great bike. We owned one a few years back. I like being able to put the cranks where I want them when maneuvering around obstacles, which does not work on the DaVinci.
> 
> ...


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> So ICS didn't do what I think it would do? Hmmm, well I don't really mind being synched since it's what we're used to. I don't think my stoker would pay attention to where her feet are going unless I warned her well in advance.
> 
> Does your stoker think the bouciness is a good thing compared to be "jarred"?


I am going to say it a little differently. I think the bounciness is a tolerable effect of riding a fat bike with large tires with the primary purpose of riding in the snow. I don't know if she'd say its a good thing.

I can confidently say that she prefers the full suspension (ECDM 29) to the hard tail (Fandango) based on the trails that we ride. I have not asked yet, but I would guess that she would still prefer the ECDM 29 to the El Gran Jefe.

I think maybe someone mentioned on another thread, "horses for courses". I believe that is a good analogy and the reason that we personally own more than one tandem. I also realize that may be a luxury.

Regarding the ICS, it is worth a look and if you have a chance to ride it, you should. I know a few couples that still swear by it both on and off road. It is a great design and I've had conversations with Todd (at DaVinci) regarding the pros and cons of ICS for off road use. I think there are certainly advantages and there are disadvantages to the design.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I appreciate your feedback. not too many people can comment all the tandems out there 

Yes, we could easily have two tandems, but it would probably be a rigid tandem like the Jefe and a fully suspended tandem. The Fandango was our first dip in the pool, now we know a little more about what we like, the question is what's step next.

The easiest and cheapest route is to swap the Fandango for the Jefe. I have lots of fat bike spares, even a Bluto that could be repurposed, plus I really like the Jefe design and versatility.

In time I could see adding a full suspension tandem, but I would want to ride the El and the Symbiosis before making a decision.

As to the Jefe, I think I could make it handle the way I want, by changing the set up, even using an Angleset to adjust the HTA.

How does the steering on the Jefe compare to the Fandango? Does it feel slower? If slower, is it more a function of the tire size, HTA, or a combo of the two?



ds2199 said:


> I have not asked yet, but I would guess that she would still prefer the ECDM 29 to the El Gran Jefe.
> 
> I think maybe someone mentioned on another thread, "horses for courses". I believe that is a good analogy and the reason that we personally own more than one tandem. I also realize that may be a luxury.
> 
> Regarding the ICS, it is worth a look and if you have a chance to ride it, you should. I know a few couples that still swear by it both on and off road. It is a great design and I've had conversations with Todd (at DaVinci) regarding the pros and cons of ICS for off road use. I think there are certainly advantages and there are disadvantages to the design.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> ...How does the steering on the Jefe compare to the Fandango? Does it feel slower? If slower, is it more a function of the tire size, HTA, or a combo of the two?


I don't have enough ride time to comment yet.


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## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

We have 3 off road tandems and they all ride differently. I don't think the Jefe is going to give the comfort to the stoker that the ECDM does. They (ECDM)are unquestionably the smoothest ride of any bike for the stoker. So far my experience on the Jefe is that it has lots of understeer but that is probably more due the 4.8 studded Dillinger then the steering geometry. I doubt anyone has any dirt experience on the Jefe yet as only a few are built so far. We have both a 26 and 29 ECDM and ride the 29 more often but the longer wheelbase is an issue at times on technical sections. Your fandango has the same issues so you are used to it. My thoughts are you are going to compromise significantly with a Jefe on true dirt performance and it will not be all that much different then your fandango except the ability to run larger tires. My wife did comment that she doesn't feel like she needs a thud buster on the Jefe after we rode some hard packed snow trails as the tires certainly absorb a bunch of hits. Bottom line not really one bike to do it all out there at this time.


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## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

one more pic of the Jefe in riding form.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

AKExpress,

Thanks for the additional comments and first hand experience. 

I realize it's a new tandem design, so feedback is limited, but it's what we got, so Ill work with it.

I like that your wife noticed the softer ride, I expected that the tires would add some measure of comfort, but it's nice to hear it.

Does anyone have a wheelbase measurement for the Jefe? I assume it's shorter than a Fandango, maybe even shorter than a ECDM 26... so handling in tech terrain should be tighter.

I expect the understeer is a combination of tires and snow, slowing roation and sliding somewhat, kinda like riding a typical mtb tandem on soft/sticky soil, it's a snow biking thing. I run 4' floaters because they handle quicker than a 5" tire, but for riding in show, the wider tires makes sense.

If anyone gets the chance to ride some dirt, or even dry gravel, I'd be curious on stearing impressions, i.e. is it quicker or slower than what you are used to from other tandems.

You can probably tell from my posts, but I'm not really on the fence, I pretty much have a Jefe in mind, the ECDM will come after I sell the Fandango, and the Honzo, and the KHS...


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

I'll measure the wheelbase when I get home. Alex may chime in with the answer first.

I'd venture a guess that the wheelbase is VERY close to the Fandango. Just rough math knowing that a large (4.8") tire on a 26" wheel is very close to the diameter of a 29" tire.


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## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

According to spec drawing I have from Ventana the Jefe wheelbase is
small frame 71.93"
large 72.93"
ECDM in 26 same small frame size is 71.82"
ECDM in 29 same small frame size is 72.60"

View attachment El Gran Jefe Tandem.pdf


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

But with a fat bike your could easily run 29er mountain bike wheels and tires and basically have a Fandango, so it might be a more versatile bike, particularly if the Bluto suspension fork is up to the task.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

richwolf said:


> But with a fat bike your could easily run 29er mountain bike wheels and tires and basically have a Fandango, so it might be a more versatile bike, particularly if the Bluto suspension fork is up to the task.


That's really the most attractive feature of the Jefe is the ability to run any wheelset from 29+ to 26 x 5"; lots of space to run tall and wide tires.

Granted, fork choices are still limited; the Bluto will work for now, but I'll probably have to add a bunch of volume spacers and be careful doing gap jumps , but with the boom in fat bike technology, burlier forks are coming soon.

So then, if you were going to build one wheelset to rule them all...which one woudl you choose?

26" - Std mtb tires to 2.5", + sizes to 3", 4-5" fat tires
650b - Std mtb tires to 2.5", + sizes to 3.25", no fat tires "yet"
29" - Std mtb tires to 2.5", + sizes to 3", no fat tires likely

Granted, I'm looking at full bodied tires to better cushion my stoker, and I won't likely run a standard 26" mtb tire due to clearance issues, but a 26" tires has the most potential at the moment.

I'm leaning toward a 650b, since I have a set of unbuilty Duallys (they are a little bit puny, but they'd work), but then I can't run fattys, which is honestly the whole point of this tandem.

If I could access a crystal ball, I'd want to know if there was any future in 26+ size tires and whether fat tires will ever make the jump to 650b.

I could build two sets of wheels, but hubs are dollars and a certain point having two tandems will be the solution. I expect to have an ECDM in the next couple years.


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## shebear (Mar 1, 2015)

We have a Symbiosis and as a stoker I have to say I love it. Hubby is a spinner and I tend to be hammer at a slower pace. This tandem allows him to spin and me to grunt us up the mountain. One of the things we noticed the first time we rode the tandem was how the independent drive allowed me to pedal the bike while he clipped in at his own pace. No more wobbling around trying to get his cleat in. It's also saved us more than once in rock gardens though it took me a few rides to read his body language enough to know what's going on since he's taller than me. I hear they are making 27.5 versions now so I'd look into one of those if I was buying again.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Thanks for that feedback, I think we'll end up doing the same in time.

We committed to building a Jefe fat tandem, I'm building it as 650b+ to start. If we end up wanting more cushion, but we like the 650b+ set up, then we'd try to get a custom Symbiosus.



shebear said:


> We have a Symbiosis and as a stoker I have to say I love it. Hubby is a spinner and I tend to be hammer at a slower pace. This tandem allows him to spin and me to grunt us up the mountain. One of the things we noticed the first time we rode the tandem was how the independent drive allowed me to pedal the bike while he clipped in at his own pace. No more wobbling around trying to get his cleat in. It's also saved us more than once in rock gardens though it took me a few rides to read his body language enough to know what's going on since he's taller than me. I hear they are making 27.5 versions now so I'd look into one of those if I was buying again.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

akexpress said:


> one more pic of the Jefe in riding form.
> View attachment 965386


I had to add a photo too, now that we have an "action shot"

The el Gran Jefe is pretty awesome!!


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## XC Mike (Sep 26, 2004)

ds2199 said:


> I had to add a photo too, now that we have an "action shot"
> 
> The el Gran Jefe is pretty awesome!!
> 
> View attachment 969208


Looks like Fun Dan!!


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## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

ds2199 said:


> I had to add a photo too, now that we have an "action shot"
> 
> The el Gran Jefe is pretty awesome!!
> 
> View attachment 969208


Dan
I think I can see two big grins on your faces The Jefe's are fun. We are jealous of your snow , we have very little here in Alaska. We are coming to Colorado on the 15th to ski with Bob and Sandy for a week but not bringing the tandem.


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

akexpress said:


> Dan
> I think I can see two big grins on your faces The Jefe's are fun. We are jealous of your snow , we have very little here in Alaska. We are coming to Colorado on the 15th to ski with Bob and Sandy for a week but not bringing the tandem.


Yes, big grins, lots of them! And we got quite a few looks too.

Too bad you can't bring the tandem, but you'll have fun skiing. Say hi to Bob and Sandy.

I'm starting to think that with this new bike, we probably won't be skiing as much as we used to.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

That bike makes total sense for riding like that. Awesome concept and photos.

PK


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## ds2199 (Sep 16, 2008)

PMK said:


> That bike makes total sense for riding like that. Awesome concept and photos.
> 
> PK


PK, I KNOW!! We finally got to ride with some others and they were cool enough to stop and snap a few photos on their iphone. The scenery isn't bad either.

I was second guessing this whole fat bike tandem idea based on some feedback from so called "experts" who said that a tandem fat bike will "never work". "It's hard enough to ride a fat bike in snowy conditions, I don't think it will work, too much weight, it will be too hard to control..."

Well, I can't say it's easy, but it is a blast! I am SOOOOO glad that I did not listen to THEM.

I've said it before and I'm saying it again, I'm fortunate that my bride is adventurous and wants to do these things with me!

We've owned a couple of tandems over the past 10+ years and this one might just be the most fun of all.

Thank you Sherwood Gibson for helping us to make this a reality!


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## Bacons (Nov 10, 2011)

Good on ya Dan. Watch out for the fat bike "experts." Many of them spend a bit too much time online, and not enough time actually riding. 
I've been riding fat bikes since 2011... and while I love my other "skinny" tire bikes, the fat is my favorite. I can't wait for our Jefé build to be ready (all the remaining parts are arriving this week).


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## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

Bacons said:


> Good on ya Dan. Watch out for the fat bike "experts." Many of them spend a bit too much time online, and not enough time actually riding.
> I've been riding fat bikes since 2011... and while I love my other "skinny" tire bikes, the fat is my favorite. I can't wait for our Jefé build to be ready (all the remaining parts are arriving this week).


You will like the fat tandem. Every time we ride it the singles come up and ask us about it and they really have surprised looks if we pass them! We just need some more snow as it is studded tire conditions here for us. The Dillinger 5 studded are working very well at about 8 lbs pressure tubeless.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

ds2199 said:


> Yes, big grins, lots of them! And we got quite a few looks too.
> 
> Too bad you can't bring the tandem, but you'll have fun skiing. Say hi to Bob and Sandy.
> 
> I'm starting to think that with this new bike, we probably won't be skiing as much as we used to.


In Central WA the ski season has been terrible "again", so we're riding more than skiing. I just wish we had more tandem friendly riding close to home; it is really steep here.

That's what's happened with us, my wife is only so-so interested in doing solo ride and ski stuff, but she's nearly always game for a tandem ride.

I love riding tandem, I get worked more in my upper body, but it's my mind that is run ragged as I try to work the tandem through tight terrain while having to think about more than a single riding dimension.

Tandems make you see a bigger picture


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## akexpress (Dec 19, 2010)

We are normally voracious x-country skate skiers Not so much with the fat bikes and now the fat tandem and we see this same change in activity on the the multi use trails here in Anchorage. Now more bikes then skiers, who would have predicted that 6-7 years ago.


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