# Which is better for an Urban/DJ/Park frame.... steel... or aluminum...



## ajoc_prez (Jan 19, 2004)

My current XC race bike is steel and I love it. I've owned several aluminum bikes in the past and they were pretty stiff...too stiff in fact, and I seem to read alot of breakage problems with aluminum.

Seems like most of the more popular DJ bikes from Specialized, Cannondale, Giant, Kona, etc are aluminum. Some other sweet frames I've been looking at like the Transition ToP, Norco 416, etc are chromoly.

I'm torn. Whats your favorite frame material and why?


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

heh...i own aluminum, but id rather have steel which i will look into next year

for dirtjumping, or for just about all harsh riding other than racing steel will always come ontop, but aluminum will also do

you can think of aluminum as glass, it is very stiff, though it is pretty strong once it cracks thats it unless you have a specialist repair it for lots more than the glass (aluminum frame) is probably worth...


steel is more like concrete VERY STRONG with a bit of flex, and if it does manage to break some how it is easily fixed by filling in (welding) the cracked spot, ofcourse concrete weighs more than glass


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Not neccesarily true.

Cromoly can be lighter. Aluminum can be stronger.

Aluminum does have a fatigue life, so as time goes on, it stretches until it reaches the fatigue life. At which point it will crack. But most people don't bother keeping frames that long anyways.

Steel is a non-ferrous metal which means that it has no fatigue life. But it can still crack and sheer just like aluminum frames.

What kind of fork are you looking for Pot?


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

well none really now, but in a few months or possibly weeks (i have no idea how long a duro will last in dj/fr/am/xc conditions) i may need a new one, i would like another suntour, like a higher end rux, but since no one owns one, any decent one will do if the price is right (im not particularly interested right now though) but the rux is on sale in europe for around $170 (thats over %60 off retail) and it looks like the right fork for me so looks like im getting it, but im probably not going to be in the market for a new fork until my duro takes a sh!t on me first, i posted that wanted sig before i got my new frame, because i though the duro would screw up the geometry of a norco, but it didnt do that, but i realize it may turn out to be a sub par fork wich is why i will be getting a new one probably by october

think id be better off with a rock shox revelation though? is it just the pike with a qr axle?


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

i heard somewhere that aluminum only has a life of 5 years?

steel CAN be lighter and aluminum CAN be stronger but thats usually with dh/fr bikes (e.g nicolais and karpiels are made of aluminum yet they huck higher than any bike out there) those frames have aluminum with a thicker wall

i guess if you are getting a bike and cant decide on steel or aluminum check the reviews. By the time you factor in how much reinforcement goes into aluminum dj frames there is no real advantage to either, all that should really matther is which one you like better, i guess when choosing see how much it weighs, aluminum needs thicker walls to compare to steel in strength. Your dj frame should be heavy, thats about it, not TOO TOO TOO heavy, but not too light either.

Go with whats tried and true, devinci hucker/kicker is aluminum yet it is a great freeride/dj bike, and probably as strong as a chromoly khs dirtjumper 

an evil imperial is aluminum aswell but its reinforcements and its structure probably make it one of the strongest frames out there

or an azonic steelhead, p2 CrMo, khs dj 100, or 200 which are all 3 steel frames


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## Psycle151 (Dec 20, 2005)

I was thinking more about frame geometry when I got my Black Market Mob. Short rear- ends rule on this type of bike. XSL Will: Steel is actually a ferrous metal, and does have a fatigue life, much longer than aluminum of course. If you're buying new, let the warranty worry about cracks, and just worry about keeping the rubber down.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Psycle151 said:


> I was thinking more about frame geometry when I got my Black Market Mob. Short rear- ends rule on this type of bike. XSL Will: Steel is actually a ferrous metal, and does have a fatigue life, much longer than aluminum of course. If you're buying new, let the warranty worry about cracks, and just worry about keeping the rubber down.


My bad, I always get ferrous and non-ferrous mixed up.

You're right, steel doesn't steel does have a fatigue life, but it's signifcantly longer then aluminum.


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

i suppose all materials have some sort of fatigue life really...if you sit on a piece of titanium for 800 years it should get weaker in someway...but thats nothing to worry about


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

I answer the question with a question.

How many aluminum Street/DJ/Park BMX bikes do you see? There is a reason they are all steel. It's all about frame life. If you plan on buying a bike and riding it hard for several years go with steel. If you switch bikes a lot and don't do grinds go aluminum.

Personally, after my many years as a BMXer I can't / won't ride aluminum.


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

uhhh...almost EVERY street,dj, and urban bike is made of aluminum, not to mention the hucking bikes bender uses...

bmx's are all steel, and i would NEVER ride an aluminum bmx either, but theres a reason bmx bikes arent made of aluminum, they have no suspension, smaller wheels, a short build, and have to withstand riders jumping, doing gaps (ive even seen a video where this kid hucked his bmx right off a 15-20 ft rail to ground!) steel is the only thing that would cut it for bmx's in particular because they have sooo much force being placed on every aspect of them

as for dj bikes they can be made of aluminum along as its built right, gussets, wider tubing, thicker walls, etc. you wouldnt make an aluminum dj frame out of xc bike tubing...

but you arent neccesarily wrong at all...yes alot of dj bikes are made of aluminum, but that doesnt change the fact that steel is indeed stronger than aluminum (nobody give me no bull about "oh if you build the aluminum right it is yada yada yada") steel is stronger unless its the steel used in department store bikes, and if you want to go steel, it isnt any more expensive, but its heavier, and probably harder to jump with.

you dont see many specialized p3's breaking they are aluminum.


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

I said, "Street/DJ/Park BMX bikes"

Yes, Bender's bikes are aluminum. He also gets a new bike every few months.

I've been a BMXer for 18 years, I know quite well why they aren't made of aluminum. Gussets, bigger and thicker tubes don't cut it on them. 2-Hip Bikes tried that with a bike called the Pork years back. They were discontinued due to overly high breakage rates.

I'm not against aluminum bikes, but once you start doing grinds that can easily damage the softer material or running the same frame hard over longer periods of time you are asking for trouble.

No, I don't see that many broken P3s, but I don't see many being used that hard for that long.


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

> I said, "Street/DJ/Park BMX bikes"
> 
> Yes, Bender's bikes are aluminum. He also gets a new bike every few months.
> 
> ...


...ok...ummm "Street/DJ/park BMX bikes"? why didnt you just say bmx bikes...

thicker aluminum and gussets do so cut it, its tried tested and true just not for bmx bikes.

i agree with you, but this guy isnt talking about a bmx bike...its just common sense steel is better for bmx bikes....im with you on the aluminum bmx thing, id never ride it

i guess if your talking about doing grinds aluminum would not be good for long periods of time, and if you are going to do grinds indeed get a steel bike, infact under any circumstanse if i could i would get a steel bike.

if steel made THAT huge of a difference why arent most dirtjumper using azonic steelheads, or khs dj's or p2 crmos or bmw, for regular dirtjumping aluminum will do, but it wont do for more than 5 years of intense riding most likely

suffice to say steel is better than aluminum it welds easier, is stronger, can be only slightly heavier, but 3 times as strong for the same thickness, and will last you


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

potvinwannab said:


> ...ok...ummm "Street/DJ/park BMX bikes"? why didnt you just say bmx bikes...
> 
> thicker aluminum and gussets do so cut it, its tried tested and true just not for bmx bikes.
> 
> ...


Don't argue with hb, he knows his stuff.


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## SOG (Jun 21, 2006)

I prefer steel for its ride. It is more forgiving and has a livelier ride than aluminum. There are light steel frames out there (Staats and Supercross) that are plenty strong too. I mostly DJ and I love my MX 26. It is pretty light at 26lbs and I weight 225lbs and I haven't experienced any problems in the year that I have had it.


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

I said "Street/DJ/park BMX bikes" because aluminum BMX racing bikes are popular right now.

I brought up the fact that all of the trick BMX bikes are steel because it's the same style of riding.

Most dirt jumpers buy what's readily available/popular. P-Series/Chase/STP have all been available as 26" wheeled complete bikes with gears from big companies with huge advertising and sponsorship budgets. Easy for bike shops to sell. P2 Cromo became available in 2006 in this configuration and I predict that you will be seeing more of them out there as time progresses. My LBS has been selling the Steel KHS DJs almost as fast as they can get them, but most of their customer have never heard of KHS before. Steelheads and BMW aren't available as completes and most shops don't keep frames hanging around.

So ajoc,
We pretty much all agree that you can ride both and be fine for a while, but if you are getting a bike for the long haul grab steel.

Note:
Doing feebles, 50/50s, and rail slides on any bike not purposely built to handle one sided dropout loads will eventually twist the rear triangle regardless of material.


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## sittingduck (Apr 26, 2005)

My STP only lasted 2 years. It cracked where the head and down tubes meet.
Just by coincidence 2 other STPs from my area broke in the exact same place. All 3 within a week of each other! Mine was replaced instantly by my LBS under warranty. I rode steel bikes all my life until the STP, and will probably go steel again if I ever decide to quit the STP. Steel breaks too though, I have broken almost every frame I've ever ridden, most of them steel.


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## ajoc_prez (Jan 19, 2004)

ihatemybike said:


> My LBS has been selling the Steel KHS DJs almost as fast as they can get them, but most of their customer have never heard of KHS before. Steelheads and BMW aren't available as completes and most shops don't keep frames hanging around.


Which KHS dj bikes are steel? All the ones I see are aluminum... http://www.khsbicycles.com/01_dj_300_06.htm


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

the 2005 khs dj 100, and 200, and i think the new 50 is steel...

and i SAID i AGREED with whatshisface that steel is stronger i was just adding that alkuminum isnt neccesarily weak...


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

No steel KHS for 2006.


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## GotMojo? (Mar 25, 2004)

ihatemybike said:


> No steel KHS for 2006.


Wonder why? Is it that aluminum is CHEAPER?


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

From a manufactering standpoint yes. Less material stock, same jigs for all bikes. KHS was probably farming out production to two different mfgs and dropped the one that made the steel bikes.


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

What about titanium?


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

Titanium can be a great material for stunt bikes, but cost is prohibitive for most riders.

Here is the Batch Bicycles Juk.


I recall another Ti bike made by Quamen, but I can't find any info on it now.


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

Would you buy it if you could afford it? Or would you spend your money on components?


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

Yes, if I could afford a properly engineered titanium stunt bike I would buy one, but that would also mean that I could afford any components I wanted too. The Eastern Ti cranks would be cool to try. Maybe if I hit Mega Millions tonight....


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

why would you waste money on ti unless you actually had money to spare...steel is just as strong and as cheap as aluminum almost


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

If I won the lotto, I'd do it just because. But right now I'm on a Steelhead, cause I'm a cheap bastard.


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

id do alot of thigs if i won the lotto aswell

...like ride an elephant to school...

...pay a teacher to give herself a swurly...

...and buy a gold plated titanium bike


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## ibanezrg520kid (Oct 27, 2005)

potvinwannab said:


> why would you waste money on ti unless you actually had money to spare...steel is just as strong and as cheap as aluminum almost


nvm. about this part.

quick talking about metals, becasue you don't know what you are talking about. same for BMX bikes.. be quiet


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

jeesh what crawled up your ass and died...

titanium and steel tubing has about the same yeild point

Titanium-40-120 

Steel-46-146

so the same thickness of tubing and same diameter titanium and steel are about equal in strength, only the steel weighs more


this ofcouse is dependant on the quality of tubing


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## ibanezrg520kid (Oct 27, 2005)

potvinwannab said:


> jeesh what crawled up your ass and died...
> 
> titanium and steel tubing has about the same yeild point
> 
> ...


wow, you were reading this yesterday after i posted, but you replied today... way to use google.


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

no i didnt read any of this yesterday after my post i went off the computer, i didnt know you posted till this morning when i checked my inbox...

and i always thought titanium was way stronger than steel, till i came across a website that actually posted the numbers, so after reading what you wrote i was reminded of the numbers and thought i would show you them. I think titanium is much stronger than steel in general, but i guess because of the thickness of tubing typically used in bicycle manufacturing it really makes no difference except for weight


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## ibanezrg520kid (Oct 27, 2005)

potvinwannab said:


> no i didnt read any of this yesterday after my post i went off the computer, i didnt know you posted till this morning when i checked my inbox...
> 
> and i always thought titanium was way stronger than steel, till i came across a website that actually posted the numbers, so after reading what you wrote i was reminded of the numbers and thought i would show you them. I think titanium is much stronger than steel in general, but i guess because of the thickness of tubing typically used in bicycle manufacturing it really makes no difference except for weight


you mean you used the website and was like "yes, i have something to use to make me look good!"

bs. you were checking this thread around an hour after i posted cause i got on to see who was viewing this thread and... YOU WERE.

i'm done replying to you though.


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

look i dont know what the hell you are talking about ok, your jut being an annoying................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................and thats when i realized he was charging me a dollar too much for my milk, so i stormed out of the convenience store with a slushie and no milk


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## Alejandro24 (Aug 26, 2005)

*Tech data*

here is an interesting reading about this topic:

http://www.kestrel-usa.com/technology/carbon.php

A little long and technical, mostly about carbon, but they also talk about aluminium, steel and titanium..

just theory..


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

thats a big pile of phuey
carbon is not the ideal frame material for biking unless its road biking
its strong in one direction, but in other directions it is useless. How many street/urban/dhers use carbon bikes?

to put it in perspective, how many carbon sticks do hockey players break a season?
ALOT


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## Alejandro24 (Aug 26, 2005)

Yes, i know that a carbon DJ frame is VERY stupid; it would not last 1 hour !!! that page talk about the phisical properties of aluminim, steel and even titanium..

Did you even read it ??? :???:


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

i skimmed...it did say "carbon fibre is the ideal bike frame material' did it not?

AND it laid claim that carbon is stronger than titanium and steel and aluminum by 10 fold

ah well i guess it IS for road bikes


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## ibanezrg520kid (Oct 27, 2005)

potvinwannab said:


> i skimmed...it did say "carbon fibre is the ideal bike frame material' did it not?
> 
> AND it laid claim that carbon is stronger than titanium and steel and aluminum by 10 fold
> 
> ah well i guess it IS for road bikes


STFU man.. carbon is much more ideal for its strength and weight. it didn't say it was the most ideal for DJ, but just bikes in general.

carbon is very strong, but the problem with it is impacts with sharp edges will damage it. carbon is VERY ideal for top of the line XC racing bikes. if someone made a carbon DJ bike the only way it would be usable is if it came with a life time warrenty where it would be replaced no matter what happened to it. the abuse of throwing down your bike while doing dj's wouldn't be good for a carbon frame.

the point is that article is correct, however it wouldnt be plausable to make a DJ bike outta carbon, because the constant wrecking and throwing the bike down onto rocks, sharp edges, casing of jumps, etc would destroy the frame. it is an amazing material for race designed AM, XC, and road rigs. it would also be not bad for a DH race frame if you were sponosored and didn't have to worry about breaking your bike and being out of the game for a few weeks.

carbon is stronger, lighter, and can take more abuse then most other materials, BUT when it is damaged it is ruined.

and it is great for road bikes of course, but it also serves other perposes then just being light on road bikes.


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## Alejandro24 (Aug 26, 2005)

:thumbsup: 

i post that article for everyone who like´s tech specs , just for reading in general.. the carbon part doesn´t go in this conversation..

Material Specs = valid opinions

I know that´s not all: and construction methods, alloys, etc counts A LOT.. don´t take literally !!


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

dont worry alejandro no one is taking anything literally ibanez just has a .................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................and thats how i ended up with a sack of fractured cartilage and fluids on my patella


a carbon dh bike, freeride bike, dj bike, or even all mountain bike would break or snap easily because it #1 has way too much flex and #2its glued together, a true one piece carbon design would be stronger, but still wouldnt cut it

if you crashed with a carbon bike it would snap, and it would send thousands apon thousands of splinters into your body. 

besides i (personally) dont believe that carbon is stronger than even aluminum to me (personally) its just plastic with a cool name, it my have certain strength advantages, but still i dont see skyscrapers going up on carbon fibre frames and i wouldnt trust my life to a carbon fibre dh bike
as for the lifetime warranty on a carbon dj frame...dont even... you would be dead before you could use it because your frame would snap on impact 

bottom line:carbon is for sissies who ride 0.7 inch tires with a dura ace drivetrain and lets see you work up the kahonees to do a 10 foot high drop on a carbon fibre bike, and there is a reason that even people who do only indoor stunts or skatepark where there are no rocks to puncture the carbon fiber still use aluminum or steel...

and i dont know about you but i wont ride anything thats structural stability is compromised by a sharp twig or a pebble

p.s-yeah i think i spelled fiber wrong but im too lazy to edit it


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## ibanezrg520kid (Oct 27, 2005)

hahaha you knowlage of carbon is non-existant. please be quiet. if that is the case why were some of the old top of the line forks made of carbon and not "snapping" all of the time? ie. NOLEEN made a carbon fiber fork that, atleast i believe, use to be used for DH/FR type stuff. actually my dad uses one because his bike is old and outdated.. well except for the drvetrain. trust me, i've abused his fork, which is made of carbon fiber, and it has been super super strong. it was hit on a bike rack from behind in a car accident and jsut got scrathed and the fork leg twisted alittle bit. we fixed it and it has been getting ridden atleast 3times a week for prolly 4 years since. 

you go tell some guys i know here at my local trail that carbon is for "sissies with .7" tires and dura ace drivetrain" and i guarntee you these guys will show you up. our local trail as a nice table top that i've see guys on carbon fuels, nrs's, and a few other high end carbon race bikes that these guys were taking and throwing down table tops, whips, and other tricks and stomping the landings and their bikes haven't broken.. hmm? i wonder why? oh yeah carbon is strong and doesn't just flex off every little bump like you think.

and ps. people riding shimano road drive trains just haven't experiance the glory of campy parts. its the only road drive train i'd ever buy. 

and wtf? talking about skyscrapers.. stfu man. it would be FARRR to expensive and not needed to make a building outta carbon. who cares how light a building weighs...

you don't know what you are talking about. be quiet. learn about carbon, ride carbon, wreck it, come back and you'll have a different opinion. and i know a guy who is a really good race who can throw it down on a carbon trek. a funny site to see, but he can ride non the less. also, i've seen a guy at the public skate park in indianapolis show up on a klien mantra, a carbon bike, and he was airing higher then anyone on his xc bike. he was doing 360's over some transitions. he bailed while be clipped in.. got up and OMGOSH his bike was fine and he just kept throwing down at the park.


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

yes i will tell your guys at your local trails that carbon is for sissies, then they can chase me in their pink too-too's and tap me with their carbon s-works bikes, only to have it snap in half on impact with my butt \

yah you know people who do table tops on carbon? cool because while my vps is in the shop i use a supercycle hardtail that i jump with and its FINE

in my area NO ONE owns a high end bike they ALL ride supercycle, same at the skate parks and local dirtjumps, and their bikes havent broken, so by your logic i guess supercycles are the next big thing to hit dj since my friends cant break them? 

carbon is strong one way but hit it on its weak side and your frame is a gonner, youd have to land your jump pretty perfect every time, and besides the fact is the glue that hold carbon together and the curing process is in no way stronger than the welds that hold actual bike frames together, so fat chance on taking that big hit with your dual crown on, let alone single crown

no hucker would use a carbon bike thats that, no dirtjumper would use it either, because the bonds arent as strong as welds, its too flexy and unpredictable. Your friends at your local park can do whatever they want on their super dooper lightweight xc racing bike made out of carbon fiber it doesnt change the fact that you will never find a proffesional dirt jumper, freerider, or bmxer that uses a carbon frame

you may find a tour de france winner, xc race champ, or downhill RACER who does use carbon but thats about where its staying. Ive seen video of a guy doing dh on a carbon fiber bike and it snapped in half, so yah.

besides the guy asked what a good dj material was not road racing stay on topic :nono: 

and im with steel!

p.s-your old high performance carbon fork is just that OLD so wheres rock shox or marzocchis pro fr carbon fork huh?


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## Micnap (Aug 16, 2005)

*Weak carbon*

Quick, someone tell the military to quit putting carbon fiber in their jets and on the blades of helicopters because it isn't strong enough. Thank god Pot was here to save us all from this catastrophe.


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## dirtyharry (Jun 27, 2006)

Isn't the 2007 Specialized Enduro using carbon fiber parts?


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## Alejandro24 (Aug 26, 2005)

:eekster: 

OMG !! this tread is awesome..  

I just put that article because they talk about the properties of ALUMINIUM, STEEL and even TITANIUM, and thats all...

the original question is: " Which is better for an Urban/DJ/Park frame.... steel... or aluminum..?? " 

Steel... aluminium.. Metal properties... Get my point??


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## sovietspyguy (Dec 4, 2005)

potvinwannab said:


> a carbon dh bike, freeride bike, dj bike, or even all mountain bike would break or snap easily because it #1 has way too much flex and #2its glued together, a true one piece carbon design would be stronger, but still wouldnt cut it
> 
> if you crashed with a carbon bike it would snap, and it would send thousands apon thousands of splinters into your body.
> 
> ...


You can't just make the statement that carbon breaks and when someone counters with examples of how it doesn't you reply with "well neither does steel so it must be even better." That just makes no sense.

And the fact that you don't "believe" that carbon isn't as strong doesn't mean anything. Who cares what you believe, I've never heard of somebody's beliefs affecting the properties of any material. Look at specifications and real-world examples if you want your beliefs to be taken seriously. Too much flex...?? What are you talking about, that all depends on how it is made. Remember the soft-tails that Trek made a few years back? They had no pivots, just carbon fiber that was designed to flex in one direction. That's only because they designed it specifically to do that. As far as stiffness, carbon fiber is a good deal stiffer than most other materials. There is a reason it's used for rotor blades on helicopters and such. It's very versatile and can be given lots of different properties depending on how it's made.

As far as your belief that "glue" is just some crappy weak plastic, well...we aren't talking elmer's glue here. There are many many different kinds of adhesives used in just about every kind of manufacturing and construction. Some glues that join metal will rip the metal apart before the glue breaks its bond. Lots of buildings use adhesives that support structural elements, but when's the last time you gave it a second thought before walking into a building? Do you honestly think that makers of bike frames walk into office max and buy cans of rubber cement for their carbon fiber?

I'm guessing Marzhocchis pro carbon fork isn't around because nobody would be able to afford it, to answer your question.

Anyways I don't even know all that much about the topic but at least I recognize that fact. Learn something before you spout off nonsense that you just made up. Some video you saw isn't enough. You know I've also seen a video of a rider snapping his chain during a pedal kick. I guess we shouldn't use metal chains anymore...?


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## sovietspyguy (Dec 4, 2005)

Micnap said:


> Quick, someone tell the military to quit putting carbon fiber in their jets and on the blades of helicopters because it isn't strong enough. Thank god Pot was here to save us all from this catastrophe.


You beat me to it :thumbsup:


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

ibanezrg520kid said:


> hahaha you knowlage of carbon is non-existant. please be quiet. if that is the case why were some of the old top of the line forks made of carbon and not "snapping" all of the time? ie. NOLEEN made a carbon fiber fork that, atleast i believe, use to be used for DH/FR type stuff. actually my dad uses one because his bike is old and outdated.. well except for the drvetrain. trust me, i've abused his fork, which is made of carbon fiber, and it has been super super strong. it was hit on a bike rack from behind in a car accident and jsut got scrathed and the fork leg twisted alittle bit. we fixed it and it has been getting ridden atleast 3times a week for prolly 4 years since.
> 
> you go tell some guys i know here at my local trail that carbon is for "sissies with .7" tires and dura ace drivetrain" and i guarntee you these guys will show you up. our local trail as a nice table top that i've see guys on carbon fuels, nrs's, and a few other high end carbon race bikes that these guys were taking and throwing down table tops, whips, and other tricks and stomping the landings and their bikes haven't broken.. hmm? i wonder why? oh yeah carbon is strong and doesn't just flex off every little bump like you think.
> 
> ...


SRAM road group will be out soon. I want to try it. The only thing I don't like about Campy is that their pretty much proprietary. Not everything is Campagnolo compatible.

I'm currently "breaking in" the reps Scott Ransom. Full carbon fiber. You can smack it with a hammer with only 5% fatigue. That's according to Scott. Specialized seems to put a weight limit or disclaimer on their carbon fiber stuff. Their ad pretty much says that the S-works Stumpy isn't for aggressive riding.

Manitou Dorados and Bombshell Marilyns have carbon fiber "lowers." Aside from frequent Maintenance to retain performance, the Manitou was a great fork.

You don't see a lot of carbon fiber because it's very costly to produce.


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

Yeah, I was checking out the SRAM road group when I raced Cat 5/Citizen at the Elgin Cycling Classic. Looked pretty good, but I don't know about the missing tooth on the lower cogs. Not that it matters much for me as my only road bike is a 20+ year old Raliegh touring bike. Didn't come in last dispite the bike though.


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## snaky69 (Mar 8, 2005)

For having ridden both, I have a preference for steel, but geometry and fit are on my top list of priorities before I even bother about frame material.


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

i was saying from my personal point of view, not that you had to take it into account or anything...

and as for the strong adhesive find me a glue that is stronger than a solid weld, there may be adhesives (doubt it) that would break metal before they broke, but most metals welded will also break before the weld does...


besides carbon can "blow up" under high speeds mixed with rough terrain and is just too unpredictable for ME personally to use for anything other than a road racing bike.

and if price was a factor, then surely there would be a carbon bmx out there? smaller amounts of tubing mean less fiber has to be strung, it would still be quite expensive but no more so than a road bike, theres no sticks or rocks to puncture carbon in a skate park, and bmxers are rough on their bikes it would be ideal wouldnt it? i think not!

no djer out there or hardcore dher or freerider or bmxer or trials rider rides a carbon bike end of story!


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

http://batch.org/new_site/text_1042/


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## Transpower (Aug 18, 2006)

I have a 2005 Specialized P.2, made of aluminum. I see that the 2007 P.2 and P.3 will be Cr-Mo (an alloy of steel), from http://www.sicklines.com/2006/07/29/2007-specialized-p2-p3-cro-mo/. How much more will the 2007 weigh than my 2005? I realize that there are trade-offs, regardless of what material is chosen (like steel supposedly feels better). I'd like to see precise weight comparisons of a P.2 with aluminum, titanium, steel alloy, or carbon fiber. I don't jump with my bike--I use it just for street-trail-park and long fitness rides. The only drawback is its weight--I'd like it to be lighter, not heavier, actually. What about a carbon fiber-titanium combination?


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## ibanezrg520kid (Oct 27, 2005)

Micnap said:


> Quick, someone tell the military to quit putting carbon fiber in their jets and on the blades of helicopters because it isn't strong enough. Thank god Pot was here to save us all from this catastrophe.


werd.

and all these top of the line race cars should prolly quit using carbon too, because no matter how good the suspension is the slightest sharp cornered bump will break their carbon frame in half.

potvin...


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## ibanezrg520kid (Oct 27, 2005)

XSL_WiLL said:


> SRAM road group will be out soon. I want to try it. The only thing I don't like about Campy is that their pretty much proprietary. Not everything is Campagnolo compatible.
> 
> I'm currently "breaking in" the reps Scott Ransom. Full carbon fiber. You can smack it with a hammer with only 5% fatigue. That's according to Scott. Specialized seems to put a weight limit or disclaimer on their carbon fiber stuff. Their ad pretty much says that the S-works Stumpy isn't for aggressive riding.
> 
> ...


yeah, that is the only problem with campagnolo, but if you are going to run campy you gotta go all campy!! i've got a really old, 20+ yr old, trek steel frame that is decked out in about 1500 dollars worth of campy parts and it is amazing. rides just as nice as my buddies lemond and all of his coworkers steel road race bikes. i've got campagnolo shifters, ders, cranks, hubs (my rims aren't campy), and then i use cinellie bars and all that good stuff. sweet ride. it is really my dads, but i use it cause there is no point in me buying one cause i like to ride road alone and so i just ride it when he isnt which gives me about 3+ days a week to ride it. next year he is getting a new bike prolly, but whatever it may be it'll def. be outfitted with some nice italian parts  only his next frame will be carbon. i may take his old campy parts and put them on a carbon frame if he gets a new bike.

and yeah, manipoo makes a great carbon fork, but it just takes alot of maintence.

also, i'm pretty sure specailized just puts that warning on because it is just helping their own back out. i've seen plenty of s-works stumpys and epics get pushed crazy hard and not break, but i have seen some carbon trek fuels break, but all of them were from crashes that would have left an aluminum frame with a big dent in them and then some. normally it is just the rear triangle that you see broken or atleast it is for me.

i hope srams new road group is dope, but i just hate controls that don't have the cabels made to run other your grip tape.


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

Yes i say all urban dj, bmx, dh, trials, and freeride bikes be made out of solid 100% iron rubar...or anything BUT carbon


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## ibanezrg520kid (Oct 27, 2005)

potvinwannab said:


> i was saying from my personal point of view, not that you had to take it into account or anything...
> 
> and as for the strong adhesive find me a glue that is stronger than a solid weld, there may be adhesives (doubt it) that would break metal before they broke, but most metals welded will also break before the weld does...
> 
> ...


you are a NOOB when it comes to this. be quite. it is one thing to state your opinion, but when your opinion is trying to be displayed as a fact and your opinion is in fact wrong then you should just give it up.

carbon doesn't flex when desgined not to flex. if carbon flexes so much what do you have to say about aluminum? aluminum sure has flex to it! other wise people wouldn't complain about feeling flex.

you want a strong glue/adhesive? go get your self the adhesive that is used to glue PVC pipe together, don't get the cheap crap either, and i know for a fact there are some that will break will NEVER come free.

you have been shut down with every statement you have made about carbon. you are wrong, ignorant on the subject of carbon, and just pulling stuff out of your a**, so give up, learn your facts about these materials, get some hands on experiance, then come back and express your opinions in an open-minded manner as opposed to your close minded, and needless do i say incorrect, opinions and completely inaccurate facts. quit providing "facts" to back up you opinion that are not correct.

sorry to the starter of this thread. the answer to your question is all subject to opinion of the rider, but however with the topic of carbon being brought up and ignorant people, who insist they are correct, on this subject... this thread is going to stay off topic lol


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

really? uhh i dont believe i got a response to...

"no djer out there or hardcore dher or freerider or bmxer or trials rider rides a carbon bike end of story!"


and you know it...

and its just that END.OF.STORY


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## ibanezrg520kid (Oct 27, 2005)

potvinwannab said:


> really? uhh i dont believe i got a response to...
> 
> "no djer out there or hardcore dher or freerider or bmxer or trials rider rides a carbon bike end of story!"
> 
> ...


umm, that is becasue those are styles of riding where the bike takes maximum abuse and it isn't cost effective to do so with carbon, because it cost more then aluminum and steel and when you are breaking, cracking, and denting metals then it isn't going to be cost effective to use a more expensive material.

and there are carbon DH bikes... people just can't afford them, so only pro riders get them.

pnwed biotch


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

Hah In Your Face

If Carbon Was Soo Much Stronger Then It Should Be Able To Take All That Abuse!

And If It Was Cost ,then There Would Be Atleast On Pro Out There Using It

And Those Carbon Dh Bikes Are For Racing Not Extreme Drops/riding!


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## ibanezrg520kid (Oct 27, 2005)

potvinwannab said:


> Hah In Your Face
> 
> If Carbon Was Soo Much Stronger Then It Should Be Able To Take All That Abuse!
> 
> ...


IT CAN TAKE THE ABUSE!!!! have you not listend to a word anyone has said to you!?!?!

it can take extreme abuse otherwise it wouldn't be used on aircrafts and all that stuff. it has flex when made to and is stiff when designed to be stiff.

the problem with carbon is that if you DO injure it then it is runined! a wreck that would dent aluminum would crack carbon. it is strong, but once it has received a fatal injust it is no longer any good. that is the reason they aren't used for extreme FR. learn about it, use it, test it, come back here and do a write up, so then you will realize that you are wrong.

i can give you a few engineers engineers in the mechanial world who will tell you you are an IDIOT for what you have kept trying to argue.

here is a little quote from a wisconson engineering school website about mtn. bikes and the materials they are made of. NOTE: this is from the college of engineering of the Univerisy of Wisconson - Madison

"The last two bike frame materials, carbon fiber and titanium, are for those riders who want to shave every last gram of excess weight off their bikes *while still having the benefits of a stiff and rigid frame.* Only the *more experienced riders can appreciate* the light, yet strong design that comes along with the extra cost."

there you go. now go tell an engineering school that they are wrong that these materials. i included the facts about TI, because you were saying it wasn't good but for saving weight also. you tell these people, who have the highest degrees possible and the most knowlage there is to know about these materials, that they are wrong and they will probably just b*tch slap you. then they willl use you as the ignorant example of a newb in their next class.


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

you know what ibanez go get on a carbon dirtjump bike, oh wait 2 problems there (1)you wont find one because it isnt good for high abuse biking and (2)it will break 

stick that in your pipe and smoke it because even the richest indoor bmxers dont use carbon nor would they, and why would they when they can use titanium


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## ibanezrg520kid (Oct 27, 2005)

potvinwannab said:


> you know what ibanez go get on a carbon dirtjump bike, oh wait 2 problems there (1)you wont find one because it isnt good for high abuse biking and (2)it will break
> 
> stick that in your pipe and smoke it because even the richest indoor bmxers dont use carbon nor would they, and why would they when they can use titanium


prepare to be owned by what i actually know and have obtained from science class. great you actually have me getting out my notes from science class last year.

steels ultimate/maximum strength measures from about 400 - 1900 mpa. mpa is unit of mesasurement and it comes from the word pascal. read about about that.. pa, pascal, is also the same as about 1 newton per a square meter. the "M" stands for Mega. so "MPa" would be read as megapascal. gosh, i hate science class. anyways, the density of steel is 7 point something, which i belive is 7.8, so it has a density of about 7.8g per cm cubed. guess what!?!?!?! carbon fiber has an MPa of around 5,600 something and has a density of 1.75g per cm cubed. so, infact, carbon is much stronger then steel given these FACTS.

you cannot argue with raw facts. it is stronger, but when using a meterial, such as carbon, you have to look at the pros and cons and/or tradeoff. you have to look at what you will gain strength wise and weight wise while also factoring in factors such as fatigue and other factors along these lines. this is something i've learned in 12th grade economics. you have to look at what you are earning and what you are giving up.

the fact is, by choosing carbon you gain strength, save weight, but you give up fatigue life. this is the reason that it is not used. NO ONE HAS SAID IT WOULD MAKE THE BEST DJ/FR/DH/PARK bike. it has only been stated that it is in fact just as strong, if not stronger then the other materials, while also saving weight, but in return you are giving up the benifits of lasting after being damaged severly. quit arguing against what has not been said.

now i'm glad i payed attention in chemsitry and physics.

hey guess what!?! my brother just informened me that he actually has a whole class about carbon composite tomorrow and he goes to Purdue Engineering School, so i'm sure he will have plenty of info to share with me to prove you even more wrong.


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## Transpower (Aug 18, 2006)

With a little search, I found this site: http://www.flyte1.com/soar/janette/store/titanium.asp. It may be biased (because it's from a titanium frame supplier), but the data look convincing.


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## ibanezrg520kid (Oct 27, 2005)

Transpower said:


> With a little search, I found this site: http://www.flyte1.com/soar/janette/store/titanium.asp. It may be biased (because it's from a titanium frame supplier), but the data look convincing.


thank you very much for helping own these ignorant noobs.

can't argue with facts now.

intresting link also! thanks for sharing!


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## potvinwannab (Jun 23, 2006)

you know what my next bike is going to be made of diamond hah lets see your carbon fiber beat that 

yah you got your facts and i have myn and myn are that no one in the extreme biking field uses carbon fiber period thats that

and my butt has a density of 4,000,000,000 parts per square micron 

CARBON FIBER SUCKS AND IS FOR PEOPLE WITH TOO MUCH MONEY AND PINK FRILLY PILLOW COVERS

IM DONE WITH THIS THREAD NOW ANY QUESTIONS OR COMENTS PM ME GOTTA GO BEFORE I GET BANNED


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## ibanezrg520kid (Oct 27, 2005)

potvinwannab said:


> you know what my next bike is going to be made of diamond hah lets see your carbon fiber beat that
> 
> yah you got your facts and i have myn and myn are that no one in the extreme biking field uses carbon fiber period thats that
> 
> ...


i can't help but say i belive that i provided one of the best factual pwnages that i've ever seen. and i have my facts and you say you have some, but you haven't shared any! what? know something that the top engineers in the WORLD do not know? cause it'd be great if you would share that with us.


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## Transpower (Aug 18, 2006)

But neither Specialized nor Cannondale make titanium frames. I really do like the geometry of the Specialized P-series. My P.2 has a very low stand-over height, and so the center of gravity is very low--it is thus remarkably agile. But I do feel the road/trail vibrations and so have to wear the Pearlizumi Gel Lite gloves.


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

Found some more Ti jumping goodness.

Charge Bikes Iron Ti
Charge Bikes Blender Ti


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## Transpower (Aug 18, 2006)

Thanks, but keep looking. The 999 British pounds price is way out of my league. I'd really like Specialized to come out with a titanium version of the P.2 frame--that way, I could just transfer all of my current components to the new frame and have the same great geometry but with a better ride quality. I e-mailed Batch Design to ask what their stand-over height is; they haven't responded yet. From the Juk's picture it looks like it would be greater than 26.5".


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

Transpower said:


> Thanks, but keep looking. The 999 British pounds price is way out of my league. I'd really like Specialized to come out with a titanium version of the P.2 frame--that way, I could just transfer all of my current components to the new frame and have the same great geometry but with a better ride quality. I e-mailed Batch Design to ask what their stand-over height is; they haven't responded yet. From the Juk's picture it looks like it would be greater than 26.5".


Just checked out your P2 in your profile. That thing is a trip. Why not use a XC bike?


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## Transpower (Aug 18, 2006)

Ah, because I need a low stand-over height and want the agility of a BMX bike. I'm going to check with Serotta and see what their capability is.


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## Transpower (Aug 18, 2006)

The price for a Serotta XC Ti-carbon frame (customized): $5095. Oh well...


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

Serotta are expensive. The Charge Ti bikes appear to be cheaper.


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

The Charge works out to $1885 at the current exchange rate.


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## Transpower (Aug 18, 2006)

That's a lot more reasonable. Can they customize the frame to be geometrically identical to my P.2?


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Transpower said:


> That's a lot more reasonable. Can they customize the frame to be geometrically identical to my P.2?


That appears to be a commuter bike. Why would you want a DJ bike to commute? It's heavy, it's short, it's cramped, it's inefficient.


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

I don't know, maybe you should email them.


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## Transpower (Aug 18, 2006)

It's not for "commuting." It's for street-trail-park and fitness riding. I prefer DJ bikes because of their BMX-like agility. It's not short (mine's "Long"), cramped, or inefficient--if you get the right components. For long distances, I think titanium would provide much better ride quality than aluminum, and weigh about the same. The new 2007 Specialized P.2 has Cr-Mo steel, so that would be even heavier.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Transpower said:


> It's not for "commuting." It's for street-trail-park and fitness riding. I prefer DJ bikes because of their BMX-like agility. It's not short (mine's "Long"), cramped, or inefficient--if you get the right components. For long distances, I think titanium would provide much better ride quality than aluminum, and weigh about the same. The new 2007 Specialized P.2 has Cr-Mo steel, so that would be even heavier.


Comparing it to an XC or a road bike, it's quite cramped and inefficient. Like apples and oranges, night and day, etc.


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## Transpower (Aug 18, 2006)

After getting bids from five suppliers, I've decided to go with Setavento.com for the custom Ti frame. Their price is $1217 plus delivery. So we'll see...in approximately 6-8 weeks.


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## ihatemybike (Nov 27, 2005)

Pricey, but hey it sounds pretty sweet. Let us know when you get it and how it rides.


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## Transpower (Aug 18, 2006)

Pricey? Man, that's the winning bid! I just don't think it's possible to go lower. Now I'm on pins and needles waiting for the drawings to come in. Both I and my LBS will review the drawings before the fabrication will proceed.

By the way I purchased the Serfas Rx saddle yesterday and rode 22 miles without getting numb, so that solves the taint numbness problem. Hopefully, the titanium will solve the ride quality problem...


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