# New 20" / 24" suspension fork option - Manitou Machete JUNIT



## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

There was lots of talk about Manitou releasing a new product today over in the suspension forum -- not what most people were expecting, but the new product is a 20" / 24" kid's specific fork tuned for kids.

"Manitou Machete JUNIT; a youth-sized 20" and 24" suspension fork. Finally, young riders have the option for either a 20" or 24" wheel to enjoy the lightweight, high-quality chassis. JUNIT Machete features a 1.5" tapered alloy steerer tube and a forged hollow crown. Thirty-two millimeter, 6000 series black anodized stanchions are completed with Manitou's signature Reverse Arch. Lightweight rider benefit from the easily adjustable Expert Air spring system, adjustable rebound, and our proven ABS+ damper."

More details:

$449 retail
Hexlock SL2 Through Axle

20"
1610g
Crown to Axle
410mm (100mm travel) 430mm (120mm Travel)

24"
1720g
Crown to Axle
455 (100mm Travel), 500 (145mm Travel)

https://manitoumtb.com/product/machete-junit/

From a Google search, it looks like Hayes may have a direct to consumer storefront coming soon -- from the listing description that Google grabbed, it sounds like these may even be boost spacing:
"Machete J-Unit 24" BOOST, 100mm Travel, Matte Black, 1.5 Taper. Regular price: $449.99. Sale price: $449.99 Sale. Machete J-Unit 20" BOOST, 100mm Travel..."
https://www.google.com/search?q=machete+junit+fork

Really curious to see what bikes start shipping with these, since pretty much no one at present is shipping 20" bikes with frames designed for tapered headsets.


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## Fahrvergkevin (Mar 24, 2017)

That seems like a lot of travel for a kid! The Brood and Suntour have 80mm. The steerer tube is also interesting, like you said, the others out there are 1 1/8” straight.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Fahrvergkevin said:


> That seems like a lot of travel for a kid! The Brood and Suntour have 80mm. The steerer tube is also interesting, like you said, the others out there are 1 1/8" straight.


100 of travel, if properly tuned is really easy for a kid to go through. There are a lot of kids shredding and sending it these days. Those small wheels just run into EVERYTHING. A 6" rock on a chute doesn't care if its a kid or not . Nice to have suspension that will soak it up, just like its nice to have more travel on a 27.5 instead of a 29er. Also, why not? These forks, aside from a 1,000$ stepcast, are all about the same chassis/weight and just have a longer airspring. Plus lightweight kids don't cause suspension bob/inefficiency as much as a 180lb adult.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Also, the Commencal Clash has been spec'd with these forks for a few months .

https://www.commencalusa.com/kids-c102x3534545

Looking into this, the Machete fork by default isn't super amazing, but like most of Manitou Forks...there are different versions that have MUCH better tech as you jump up. Example: Manitou Circus Sport sucks (worth less than 100$)...Manitou Circus Expert Pro is at Crankworks stuff.

The good news here is that it seems that no only the Airspring but the damper are their much better tech. VERY stoked for this fork. Really want to see additional specs (weight) as well.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

The air spring is basically Dorado air with a more economical materials used to help lower the cost. This allows for the fork To be lowered to any travel number you want.

The damper has also been tuned specifically for light weight riders in mind, so there is no compromise in performance.the kids will get the same feel as adults do on their Manitou products.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

mullen119 said:


> The air spring is basically Dorado air with a more economical materials used to help lower the cost. This allows for the fork To be lowered to any travel number you want.
> 
> The damper has also been tuned specifically for light weight riders in mind, so there is no compromise in performance.the kids will get the same feel as adults do on their Manitou products.


Do you have any details or are affiliated with Manitou? This fork sounds awesome and we've needed a big suspension company to get on board with real kids suspension. I'm interested in a lot more details.

Also, do you know if they are doing this same thing with the McCloud shock and making a kids version?


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

LOL, 410 A-C on a 20" bike
I have several 26" forks with less -C than that.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Promo Video from their Facebook. I think there may be a few familiar guys in there 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=321098368595498



Man, that drop the little guy does is pretty legit!

Notice how the kid on the Spawn bike rolls through the rocky stuff. You can see the fork eating it up. That's what a properly tuned fork looks like verses a Rockyshox with a ladies tune.

Shorty brake levers on Dominions is pretty ridiculously nice too. Man, I wonder what the price would be tho...

Guessing the wheels are durable but far from light.

24" 145mm Fork is 1720g (3.8lbs)...a tad lighter than a Fox 34 of similar travel. Not bad!

Fwiw a Rockshox Recon 26" 100mm (spec'd on many 24" bikes including Ripcord and Norco Fluid FS 24") is a whopping 2166g (4.8lbs) ! And that forks sucks big time too. This is a sweet option for the 20/24in crowd. Especially 24.

Also, the TrailCraft Maxwell (super light XC bike) uses a 100mm RST Snyper Fork. Its weighed at 1870g (4.17lbs) and this is still a fair bit lighter at 1720g. Impressive fork! I was afraid it was going to be a tank. It also dispels the idea that extra travel equals extra weight.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Shayne said:


> LOL, 410 A-C on a 20" bike
> I have several 26" forks with less -C than that.


I think its lower than Spawns Brood 100mm fork by about 15mm. I've seen that Spawn fork live on the 20" Rokusutta and it actually fits kids really nicely and the stack didn't seem too high. Thats the same fork on Lil Shredder/Trailcraft/Prevelo too..so being shorter than it is a good benchmark. Also these FS kids bikes are designed to account for it usually anyways and have a shorter headtube length to keep the stack down.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

svinyard said:


> Do you have any details or are affiliated with Manitou? This fork sounds awesome and we've needed a big suspension company to get on board with real kids suspension. I'm interested in a lot more details.
> 
> Also, do you know if they are doing this same thing with the McCloud shock and making a kids version?


I do not work for Manitou, but do help a little on a few projects. Didn't help with this one, but know a little about it.

The damper tuning on the McLeod can be made kids specific for OEM's pretty easily. Not sure if it's something they are working on for aftermarket sales.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

svinyard said:


> Do you have any details or are affiliated with Manitou? This fork sounds awesome and we've needed a big suspension company to get on board with real kids suspension. I'm interested in a lot more details.
> 
> Also, do you know if they are doing this same thing with the McCloud shock and making a kids version?


I'm a distributor, I've put the full Junit range up here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manitou-hayes/junit-range

Note prices are in $NZD and include NZ sales tax. $USD is about 55% of that.

They do have a kids specific McLeod out for OEM (Nino). Commencal is running one. But if you need one aftermarket they can be tuned easily for kids.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Shayne said:


> LOL, 410 A-C on a 20" bike
> I have several 26" forks with less -C than that.


An 80mm fork for a 26" bike is 430mm UNDER the crown. 460mm is common.
To get under 410 on a 26" you have less than 30mm suspension travel.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Dougal said:


> I'm a distributor, I've put the full Junit range up here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manitou-hayes/junit-range
> 
> Note prices are in $NZD and include NZ sales tax. $USD is about 55% of that.
> 
> They do have a kids specific McLeod out for OEM (Nino). Commencal is running one. But if you need one aftermarket they can be tuned easily for kids.


Do you know of any other companies spec'ing the Junit line or part of it? Seems like publicly only Commencal Clash line has the suspension (wish it had the brakes and wheels). Wondering who else is doing this, we need a new 24in bike asap!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

svinyard said:


> Do you know of any other companies spec'ing the Junit line or part of it? Seems like publicly only Commencal Clash line has the suspension (wish it had the brakes and wheels). Wondering who else is doing this, we need a new 24in bike asap!


Commencal is the only one I know of. There were companies gearing up for it at Taipei show in October, but I don't know where they're at with release.

The Commencal bike photos were photoshopped mock ups as they didn't have actual Junit gear for the catalog photos.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> Commencal is the only one I know of. There were companies gearing up for it at Taipei show in October, but I don't know where they're at with release.
> 
> The Commencal bike photos were photoshopped mock ups as they didn't have actual Junit gear for the catalog photos.
> 
> View attachment 1246557


Kona is specing a 24" machete as well, though they didn't call it a j-unit


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

mullen119 said:


> Kona is specing a 24" machete as well, though they didn't call it a j-unit


Kona has the 26" machete comp I think for their process kids bike. I don't think it's the same thing as the Junit fork


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mullen119 said:


> Kona is specing a 24" machete as well, though they didn't call it a j-unit





svinyard said:


> Kona has the 26" machete comp I think for their process kids bike. I don't think it's the same thing as the Junit fork


I know currently they have a 24" bike which is intended to be upsized with 26" wheels as kids grow. A local shop has them already (2019 models).
But I don't know if that's the same one you guys are talking about.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I was talking about the Process 100mm FS bike they have on their website.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

svinyard said:


> I was talking about the Process 100mm FS bike they have on their website.


This one looks like a standard Machete:


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

Dougal said:


> This one looks like a standard Machete:
> View attachment 1246577


From what I heard through the grapevine, Kona was one of the OEM's interested. I guess we will see what happens


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

TimTucker said:


> From a Google search, it looks like Hayes may have a direct to consumer storefront coming soon -- from the listing description that Google grabbed, it sounds like these may even be boost spacing:
> "Machete J-Unit 24" BOOST, 100mm Travel, Matte Black, 1.5 Taper. Regular price: $449.99. Sale price: $449.99 Sale. Machete J-Unit 20" BOOST, 100mm Travel..."
> https://www.google.com/search?q=machete+junit+fork
> 
> Really curious to see what bikes start shipping with these, since pretty much no one at present is shipping 20" bikes with frames designed for tapered headsets.


My son is on the JUNIT team. We were at Sea Otter for the launch. Hayes marketing director told me a D2C retail site is coming soon. From what I was also told, pre-public interest from OEMs has been strong. Expect to see a lot of new bikes with JUNIT parts in the next year or so. Retail prices are pretty good for what you get.

We've been demoing stuff for a few weeks now. It's all 100% legit and Hayes is super committed to the product line. They even made each kid a custom set of brake levers with their names laser-etched onto them where the Dominion logo usually goes. So cool.

This all happened because their product management director found himself in their machine shop one day custom-fabbing parts for his son's bike and thought "This is ridiculous. Why don't we make this stuff?" Took the idea to the CEO and here we are.



Fahrvergkevin said:


> That seems like a lot of travel for a kid! The Brood and Suntour have 80mm. The steerer tube is also interesting, like you said, the others out there are 1 1/8" straight.


RE: Travel--The poor rollover of little wheels really benefits from more travel. Also, look closely at the pics on the site, then look at pics of a Brood or Suntour fork. The Manitou lowers are several inches shorter than those forks. The stanchion length/lower length ratio is crazy.

Within a year or two most kids bikes are going to be using tapered head tubes...because these forks exist. A bit of a bummer for anyone looking to buy aftermarket for an existing bike, but a lot of existing bikes use a 44mm headtube and you can use a tapered fork in those by switching to an EC44 lower headset cup.



svinyard said:


> Man, that drop the little guy does is pretty legit!






svinyard said:


> Guessing the wheels are durable but far from light.


1651g for a 20" wheelset, 1799g for 24".



svinyard said:


> Thats the same fork on Lil Shredder/Trailcraft/Prevelo too..so being shorter than it is a good benchmark.


Propain uses that fork, too. I ended up talking with John from Flow Bikes at Sea Otter. Apparently the company that made that fork went out of business recently. He was really curious who may have bought the rights to it. Though, Manitou probably just made that irrelevant.


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

I'm looking forward to the move to boost for rear wheels - I'd imagine that it improves the chainline quite a bit on a 20" and might even make a 16" with a decently wide range possible (as long as it doesn't increase the q factor too much).


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## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

> Propain uses that fork, too. I ended up talking with John from Flow Bikes at Sea Otter. Apparently the company that made that fork went out of business recently. He was really curious who may have bought the rights to it. Though, Manitou probably just made that irrelevant.
> 
> $449 retail
> Hexlock SL2 Through Axle
> ...


IIRC the Brood/Propain forks were 100-200 grams lighter in each model, so no weight awards on this one. Suntour is within 50 grams of both or so and 40% less retail $$$ for shorter travel. But great to have more options, especially in the much needed longer travel lengths!


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## eyeballs (Sep 16, 2016)

This is exciting. My oldest will be ready to move to 24" at the end of the year. Only problem is she will be riding everything from xc races to am trails and the occasional lift park, then her little sister will be doing the same on it when it gets handed down. Finding the right bike will be difficult.


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

Be looking at the 24 inch option for Samuels NSclash Jr. based on a 100mm 26 inch fork so be able to have more travel for the same A2C.


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

Sorry to take this a little off topic: is there a light enough negative coil spring available to re-purpose a 2012 minute pro for a kids bike?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Desertride said:


> Sorry to take this a little off topic: is there a light enough negative coil spring available to re-purpose a 2012 minute pro for a kids bike?


2012 Minute Pro will be MARS Air. So they don't have a big negative spring (just top-out) and run a compression coil spring in series.

The MARS spring ride kits are out of production, I've got sizes up in this category but I'm all out of soft and extra soft: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manitou-hayes/fork-parts/ride-kits?p=1


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

Dougal said:


> 2012 Minute Pro will be MARS Air. So they don't have a big negative spring (just top-out) and run a compression coil spring in series.
> 
> The MARS spring ride kits are out of production, I've got sizes up in this category but I'm all out of soft and extra soft: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/manitou-hayes/fork-parts/ride-kits?p=1


Assuming I can't get my hands on a light or extra light ride kit (and from searching it doesn't look like it) is there any way of modifying the fork to work decently for a kid?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Desertride said:


> Assuming I can't get my hands on a light or extra light ride kit (and from searching it doesn't look like it) is there any way of modifying the fork to work decently for a kid?


How light is the kid?


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

Dougal said:


> How light is the kid?


about 35 kg


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

So am I out of luck?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Desertride said:


> about 35 kg


https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/simple-spring-rate-calculator-shockcraft.html

This is a simple calculator, gives you about 23 lb/in fork spring rate. That's going to be difficult.

Which is why Manitou have gone for air positive and negative with the Junit forks.


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## JDO (Nov 18, 2004)

Hi, I just bought the Commencal Clash 20. It came , as you know, with the Machete Junit 20 fork. It came without a proper setup manual, only a sticker on the fork leg with psi suggestions. The Commencal dealer told me that I should remove the positive air chamber cap to adjust the pressure. Well there´s no way to repressurize the chamber. When I put air in the negative chamber the fork shortens the travel.
Can you help me please?


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

JDO said:


> Hi, I just bought the Commencal Clash 20. It came , as you know, with the Machete Junit 20 fork. It came without a proper setup manual, only a sticker on the fork leg with psi suggestions. The Commencal dealer told me that I should remove the positive air chamber cap to adjust the pressure. Well there´s no way to repressurize the chamber. When I put air in the negative chamber the fork shortens the travel.
> Can you help me please?


Both Chambers fill at the same time. Pump it up, then pull up on the fork to extend it as you remove the pump. Once the pump is removed, it will stay fully extended.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

JDO said:


> Hi, I just bought the Commencal Clash 20. It came , as you know, with the Machete Junit 20 fork. It came without a proper setup manual, only a sticker on the fork leg with psi suggestions. The Commencal dealer told me that I should remove the positive air chamber cap to adjust the pressure. Well there´s no way to repressurize the chamber. When I put air in the negative chamber the fork shortens the travel.
> Can you help me please?


LOL, I had the exact same issue on our Clash 24". They fill at the same time and auto-equalize, BUT ONLY if you really screw on the shock pump...not just until it reads the pressure. Otherwise you are only filling the positive (or is it neg?)chamber. You just screw on the pump more and it'll snap back into place without having to pull on anything etc.

If that doesn't work, try a different shock pump.

FWIW I'm following the setup of a few others Dads with the same 145mm 24" fork and it's a fair amount lower than the sticker. Rebound is wide open (I think) and we are at 30 psi for my 62lb kid. Two clicks of compression. He isn't bottoming out on bigger hits. The midstroke support is pretty damn good!

Its gotten even nicer as its broken in. The fork is incredible. Its very similar to the Debonair Pike we have in the garage, tho with more midstroke to it. The kids tune tho...wow, what an incredible difference it makes. Shock is nothing short of incredible too.


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## JDO (Nov 18, 2004)

New bike day for Mariana! Clash 20.

I would try to set the fork properly tomorrow. Thanks for the help guys. The bike is stunning in person. She loved the bike, worth every penny. She's so into the Enduro thing! The bike was very well engineered for a kid, with a high leverage ratio, good geo and parts.


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## JDO (Nov 18, 2004)

svinyard said:


> LOL, I had the exact same issue on our Clash 24". They fill at the same time and auto-equalize, BUT ONLY if you really screw on the shock pump...not just until it reads the pressure. Otherwise you are only filling the positive (or is it neg?)chamber. You just screw on the pump more and it'll snap back into place without having to pull on anything etc.
> 
> If that doesn't work, try a different shock pump.
> 
> ...


It worked! Try a different pump and worked first try. Using very very low pressure, around 10 to 15 psi. It's hard to read the dial. Going to wait for the brake in so maybe it gets softer and I can raise the pressure a bit.

Thank you for your help.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

JDO said:


> It worked! Try a different pump and worked first try. Using very very low pressure, around 10 to 15 psi. It's hard to read the dial. Going to wait for the brake in so maybe it gets softer and I can raise the pressure a bit.
> 
> Thank you for your help.


For everyone's reference, the reason you are having an issue is because the poppet inside the valve is not protruding quite far enough. Spec is 1.3 mm. It can be adjusted with a 3 mm allen wrench (IIRC) down the center of the air piston.

Sometimes the fork will sag down and it's travel from the weight of the wheel or the bike while the pump is connected, so it's always best to pull up on the wheel and make sure it's fully extended before removing the pump. You can use this method to fudge travel numbers or negative spring volume as well by removing the pump while the fork is slightly compressed.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

First thing to try is always a different pump. Some just don't depress the centre rod correctly.

If different pumps don't help, check the rod protrusion as Mullen said.


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

Questions:

1. Has anyone seen/tried a JUNIT 24 145 on a 24 Rokkusuta? I think axle to crown on the X fusion velvet at 140 ~ 505-510mm (self measured). JUNIT at 145 seems ~ 500mm. So might change the head angle a touch (steepen), but probably not a big deal.



2. Does anyone know where to get a Nino tuned Macleod? Any other good options for 200 x 51mm (I think that is the size)

Any other good options for kids tuned rear shock on a Rokkusuta 24? The X fusion on there is OK, but getting it rebuilt/kids tune is half the cost of a new shock so considering a new shock while at it.


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## neosomatic (Jul 4, 2007)

*Setting Air Preasure*

I just picked up a 20" Commencal with this fork. The air valve on the bottom of the fork has a red pin sticking out that I can't push in to release air. Are you supposed to remove the top cap to set the pressure? I'm afraid of removing the top cap while the fork is under pressure.


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## mullen119 (Aug 30, 2009)

neosomatic said:


> I just picked up a 20" Commencal with this fork. The air valve on the bottom of the fork has a red pin sticking out that I can't push in to release air. Are you supposed to remove the top cap to set the pressure? I'm afraid of removing the top cap while the fork is under pressure.
> View attachment 1275911
> View attachment 1275913


The red pin gets pushed in when the pump is attached. It opens the port to the negative air chamber.

You should be able to press it, though it takes more force than a normal shrader valve core. If you can't, just attach a pump and use the pump bleed to remove air.


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## neosomatic (Jul 4, 2007)

That worked! So odd you can press on the red valve to let the air out. Worked fine after really tightening up the shock pump.

Thanks!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

neosomatic said:


> That worked! So odd you can press on the red valve to let the air out. Worked fine after really tightening up the shock pump.
> 
> Thanks!


Excellent. Connecting the pump to depress that rod also connects positive/negative. But if the pump isn't screwed all the way on it can sometimes just adjust the negative chamber.

So if the fork feels funny, check it again with it screwed all the way on. Also check the fork is at full extension before removing the pump. Because that can be used as travel adjust.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Anyone know if there any other bikes using the JUnit fork besides Commencal's?


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

If what I was told in March is still correct there should be several more companies using the JUNIT stuff next year. Not sure if I'm allowed to say which ones.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

It looks like Norco is spec'ing a little of this on their Fluid 20"/24".

I don't understand why they are skipping the McLeod Shock with the Nino tune tho? Seems like a big miss. I think I'm more impressed with the kids shock than the fork (both are spectacular). For 2499$ MSRP that is a big miss to just go with an adult XFusion shock. Bummer. Duroc wheels look sweet tho!

https://bikerumor.com/2019/08/23/cr...outh-bikes-the-new-chromoly-torrent-hardtail/


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Interesting on that Norco Fluid 20 -- hadn't seen the Schwalbe Smart Sam 20x2.35" tires before. They're showing as "New" on the Schwalbe site and 500g / $21, although still only available in Wire Bead:
https://www.schwalbetires.com/node/2406

Would be interesting to compare to some of the other 20+ tires with actual widths in the 2.3-2.4 range.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Dang. Fully redesigned frame, JUNIT fork and wheels, Maxxis rubber, SDG cockpit and saddle, and a stock dropper for $2500 is pretty legit. No mention of brakes, though. Definitely interesting they went with the X-Fusion shock. Might have been necessary to hit their target price with all the other goodies, or maybe there was an issue with the size they needed. Also interesting that they went with the SDG cockpit over JUNIT.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

RMCDan said:


> Dang. Fully redesigned frame, JUNIT fork and wheels, Maxxis rubber, SDG cockpit and saddle, and a stock dropper for $2500 is pretty legit. No mention of brakes, though. Definitely interesting they went with the X-Fusion shock. Might have been necessary to hit their target price with all the other goodies, or maybe there was an issue with the size they needed. Also interesting that they went with the SDG cockpit over JUNIT.


That's true. A 140/130 bike is pretty sweet. Plus these will be in bike shops too. My kid sat on that dropper on their 2019 model and it worked well. Brakes might be nice, cheap shimano too. Starting to see more of those.

Dan, what do you think of the Junit bars so far? Your kid liking the smaller grips?


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

svinyard said:


> Dan, what do you think of the Junit bars so far? Your kid liking the smaller grips?


He likes them. We just got some new mid-size grips to try out that are pretty sweet. They should be available soon.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

RMCDan said:


> He likes them. We just got some new mid-size grips to try out that are pretty sweet. They should be available soon.


Sweet! Yeah I can see how a slightly larger grip would be better for my 7yr and the existing skinny ones would be ideal for the 5yro.

iirc I think SDG grips are kind of a "mid-size" and pretty nice.

Fwiw my kid says that he likes them...but he is also next to use-less when it comes to bike feedback. Everything is "fine".


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RMCDan said:


> He likes them. We just got some new mid-size grips to try out that are pretty sweet. They should be available soon.


Excellent. I've got a 20" here that would be great with those bars, but it runs a shimano revo-shifter (gripshift) and I can't see how that would fit nicely.

I could probably pull a 7sp trigger from the archives.......


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Dougal said:


> Excellent. I've got a 20" here that would be great with those bars, but it runs a shimano revo-shifter (gripshift) and I can't see how that would fit nicely.
> 
> I could probably pull a 7sp trigger from the archives.......


Grip shift won't fit at all on the Junit bars -- I was curious and tried.

Not enough clamping area to support both the twist shifter and brakes.

In theory I suppose you could do it if you used a rear coaster brake...


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## SPDR (Jul 2, 2006)

Wonderful that a major manufacturer has finally come around to this market for all us dads but what were Manitou thinking with these forks being tapered? CRC/Wiggle have them in the catalogue but I can't see them selling any to the aftermarket as there are virtually no 20" specific frames with a 44mm+ head tube and very few 24". 

It's fine to push OEMs towards this standard but I can't help feeling they're missing out on a bucket load of aftermarket sales by not keeping it simple. It's not like a <35kg kid needs the added stiffness given by the tapered steerer so why limit the market?


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

The forks don't _need_ 110 spacing either and most existing kid's bikes probably don't have convertible hubs. But, like tapered steerers 110 is the current standard and likely will be for a while. My guess is that like adult bikes and parts, potential profits in the OEM sector probably dwarf aftermarket sales. In March, before JUNIT was even public, reliable sources at Hayes/Manitou told me six bike companies were already redesigning their kid lineups from the ground up around the JUNIT stuff. There's a good chance that number has grown. Odds are they looked at what it would cost them to produce a run of forks with straight steerers and how many they were likely to sell, and it just didn't pencil out.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Scott Roxster fits the Junit 20". It needed a modified external headset cup as the 44mm head tube machining wasn't quite deep enough.


__
http://instagr.am/p/B37_N1RHHQe/


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Scott Roxster fits the Junit 20". It needed a modified external headset cup as the 44mm head tube machining wasn't quite deep enough.
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/B37_N1RHHQe/


More details on this one.

I ended up setting the fork to ~65mm travel which raised the front end 50mm over the original rigid fork. 10mm of that is the external head-set cup.
The mud-guard clears the 2.6" tyre but officially it's 2.4" max with the mudguard. Heaps of clearance to the crown at full compression.

Looks good and feels great. Currently running 30psi, we'll see how it goes.


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## fuzz_muffin (Dec 24, 2017)

Dougal said:


> More details on this one.
> 
> I ended up setting the fork to ~65mm travel which raised the front end 50mm over the original rigid fork. 10mm of that is the external head-set cup.
> The mud-guard clears the 2.6" tyre but officially it's 2.4" max with the mudguard. Heaps of clearance to the crown at full compression.
> ...


Hey mate,

Sorry to thread jack, but I'm currently planning to build a 24" DJ style frame for my partner, she is 155cm (and light) and wants a sort of BMX-DJ hybrid for jumping.
I have been designing it around a 80mm manitou circus (obvi a 26" fork) but the Junit seems like it would make for a more optimised ride.

Any thoughts?

If it is more appropriate, I can PM you.

BTW, I'm the guy that just ordered a couple of sets of SKF 35mm seals 

-Fil


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

fuzz_muffin said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> Sorry to thread jack, but I'm currently planning to build a 24" DJ style frame for my partner, she is 155cm (and light) and wants a sort of BMX-DJ hybrid for jumping.
> I have been designing it around a 80mm manitou circus (obvi a 26" fork) but the Junit seems like it would make for a more optimised ride.
> ...


Definitely go for the Machete over the Circus Expert. Reason is the air spring. The Circus Expert is sprung to handle some serious jumping and coil spring availability is limited.

Circus Pro is air sprung and will do what you need, it is a step up in price.

Machete J-unit vs Circus Pro is the same type of air spring and damper. Both can be tuned well for lighter and heavier riders.

Flick me an email or call if you want to discuss more.


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## fuzz_muffin (Dec 24, 2017)

Cheers for the info mate! will redesign for the machete, the air spring tune-ability will be crucial.


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## weevie (Dec 2, 2011)

Hi I have just picked up a new Manitou Machete J-Unit Forks 20" in 120MM for £75 from evil bay from a proper UK bike shop. Perhaps proves the aftermarket challenge of selling tapered and boost on a babies bike  My challenge though is more obvious...as I have no bike or wheel to fit on this fork  .... my lad in Q getting the bike is only 4.5 so I have about half a year. I need to get these forks lowered to 100m at least ...says on back of it it can be... anyone have the part number for a spacer or are they generic??

. Also as per above on the Roxter can I add a load of spacers and drop this to 80mm and stick this on a normal kids 20" mtb hardtail... advise welcome....assume possible looking at the sweet bike above if so will look out for a second hand similar model (cujo maybe with a low BB that can be raised) or something else as a donor that needs the parts ripped off it. 

Sunringle duroc is the only 20" wheel I see prebuilt for this 15mm boost but i guess can have someone build one round an xt hub or similar. Would be soooo much easier to just cash down on a prebuilt bike but where's the fun it that (famous last words) 

All musings ... but at 75 quid I couldnt say no...game on


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

weevie said:


> Hi I have just picked up a new Manitou Machete J-Unit Forks 20" in 120MM for £75 from evil bay from a proper UK bike shop. Perhaps proves the aftermarket challenge of selling tapered and boost on a babies bike  My challenge though is more obvious...as I have no bike or wheel to fit on this fork  .... my lad in Q getting the bike is only 4.5 so I have about half a year. I need to get these forks lowered to 100m at least ...says on back of it it can be... anyone have the part number for a spacer or are they generic??
> 
> . Also as per above on the Roxter can I add a load of spacers and drop this to 80mm and stick this on a normal kids 20" mtb hardtail... advise welcome....assume possible looking at the sweet bike above if so will look out for a second hand similar model (cujo maybe with a low BB that can be raised) or something else as a donor that needs the parts ripped off it.
> 
> ...


Clip in travel spacers are here: https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/121-29113-travel-spacer-10-mm-thick-10-mm-shaft-manitou.html
You can drop it as much as you want.

Check the spoke count before you look to rebuilding the wheel on a boost hub.

Tapered head-tubes are pretty much non-existant on kids bikes, but many have 44mm head-tubes which you can convert. You have to look carefully.


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## weevie (Dec 2, 2011)

*Thanks*

Thanks v much for the steer. There may be some gratuitous copying of your rig happening as whilst I can build bikes i can't afford to buy various frames to see where head tube cups can be set.. and it looks fantastic- boy 1 would love it. Pretty much all frames are listed as 11/8 for kids though so maybe any of these will take the lower larger cup from cane creek / hope etc?

I did email you direct yesterday re spacers but then realised youre in NZ after it was sent. If can't source via hotlines the UK distributor or somewhere closer Ill be in touch if I may for 5 + shipping to UK.

May I ask whether you used a manufactured wheel up front or bought a hub and/or rim? Ive no time (or skill) to build my own wheels but sure LBS would do it.

Further musing - i will see if there are some kiddies wheels / bikes that manufactured with a 100mm / 15mm hub? Could obv then just add a boost converter.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

weevie said:


> Thanks v much for the steer. There may be some gratuitous copying of your rig happening as whilst I can build bikes i can't afford to buy various frames to see where head tube cups can be set.. and it looks fantastic- boy 1 would love it. Pretty much all frames are listed as 11/8 for kids though so maybe any of these will take the lower larger cup from cane creek / hope etc?
> 
> I did email you direct yesterday re spacers but then realised youre in NZ after it was sent. If can't source via hotlines the UK distributor or somewhere closer Ill be in touch if I may for 5 + shipping to UK.
> 
> ...


I relaced the front wheel onto a Sun-Ringle SRC boost hub. The spoke lengths worked out perfect.
I was considering the whole Duroc front wheel, but my OCD wouldn't like having mis-matching wheels and a pair of a Duroc wheels was a lot more than a front hub.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Here's the same Scott Roxter completely decked out.

Looks like the full J-unit setup, machete junit fork, protaper stem, protaper 16/22mm junit bars, duroc junit wheels, Dominion A2 SFL brakes and an 11sp drivetrain.


__
http://instagr.am/p/B8NPOgal9dL/


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## weevie (Dec 2, 2011)

Dougal said:


> I relaced the front wheel onto a Sun-Ringle SRC boost hub. The spoke lengths worked out perfect.
> I was considering the whole Duroc front wheel, but my OCD wouldn't like having mis-matching wheels and a pair of a Duroc wheels was a lot more than a front hub.


Good to know. Thanks. Was just looking at that hub - I wonder if matches the Cujo wheel as well... Too much of a coincidence I expect but would be nice as even I can replace a hub with same spokes ....

(Looking for a donor bike and will be Roxter or Cujo but 2nd hand like hens teeth in UK and was hoping to avoid new as many parts to be replaced).


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

weevie said:


> Good to know. Thanks. Was just looking at that hub - I wonder if matches the Cujo wheel as well... Too much of a coincidence I expect but would be nice as even I can replace a hub with same spokes ....
> 
> (Looking for a donor bike and will be Roxter or Cujo but 2nd hand like hens teeth in UK and was hoping to avoid new as many parts to be replaced).


FYI -- if it helps with spoke length calculations, I built my wheels based on an ERD measurement of 387mm for the 2018 Cujo rims and used the following calculator:
https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/

Cujo rims are 28 hole and I used 2 cross lacing.


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## weevie (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks for the link. There are one or two hubs available in 28h boost for a reasonable price so should be fine if no wheels magically appear for a decent price already built...


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Also potentially useful -- if you have an iphone or ipad available, this app helps you visualize each step of lacing spokes:
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/rad-3d/id1103912788

The good thing about it being a front wheel is that there seems to be a lot less differentiation in quality between cheap hubs and more expensive hubs once you get to something with sealed bearings -- the bigger differences I've noticed usually only come into play in the rear (greater POE, different cassette drivers, etc.).


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## weevie (Dec 2, 2011)

*service manual*

just in case anyone needs it I have managed to get the service/travel manual pdf (after quite some chasing) for the J Unit Machete. Not sure if can upload the whole doc to forum but if anyone wants it get in touch. Includes a diagram of where to put the spacers ....


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Interesting to see 80mm on the list as an option with more spacers -- do they list the part # for the spacers?


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## weevie (Dec 2, 2011)

Dougal kindly listed them above with his link


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## skyak (Sep 21, 2008)

Hi, will this fork fir on a riprock 20? Does anybody know the head tube size on the riprock?

ThX!


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Last year we got incredibly lucky and my son got to be a test rider for the JUNIT lineup. We were incredibly honored to have them offer him a spot on their team again for this season. Hayes is super committed to this product line, and doubly so for the kids they've chosen as their JUNIT ambassadors. For this season they pulled out all the stops and produced a run of limited-edition custom parts for their sponsored kids. It took a bit longer than anticipated due to pandemic-related manufacturing delays, but it all arrived last week:









The complete inventory of the pile is:

-Manitou Machete JUNIT Pro fork. I knew this fork (and everything else) was going to get custom graphics and chrome bling, but until it showed up I had no idea they had also dropped in their premium Dorado IRT air spring. I'm fairly confident saying that this is the raddest 24" fork ever made.

-Manitou Mara Pro shock with a custom tune and more chrome bling.

-Sun Duroc 30 JUNIT rims laced to Ringle's premium Bubba hubs

-Two sets of monogrammed Dominion A2 SFL brakes with chromed calipers, plus a stack of D-series rotors

-Custom chrome stems and two-tone raw/black JUNIT bars

-New dropper post they have in development that I am very impressed with. The lever looks sick and the installation was dead easy.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Gah! For some reason the pics of the assembled bike keep failing to upload. I have no idea why. I'll try again later, but they don't do the bike justice anyway. We may have achieved peak bling. Supposedly some of this stuff may be available retail in the fall.


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## JDO (Nov 18, 2004)

Fantasti!, congratulations..
One question: the dropper is 60, 80 or 100 mm?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

RMCDan said:


> Last year we got incredibly lucky and my son got to be a test rider for the JUNIT lineup. We were incredibly honored to have them offer him a spot on their team again for this season. Hayes is super committed to this product line, and doubly so for the kids they've chosen as their JUNIT ambassadors. For this season they pulled out all the stops and produced a run of limited-edition custom parts for their sponsored kids. It took a bit longer than anticipated due to pandemic-related manufacturing delays, but it all arrived last week:
> 
> View attachment 1341771
> 
> ...


Brilliant. I see you've got a lot of new spec and higher spec Pro models. The polished and chrome stand out great.

We got the full black forks with chrome lettering on recent orders. Looks great and photos don't really do it justice compared to the pop you get in real life.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

That stuff is so awesome. We need to see the full bike Dan!

Its INSANE how nice the non-pro stuff works...now this all chromed out. It's cool that a proper uber-grom like your kid is rocking it.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Still not letting me upload the completed pics, no idea why. The Dorado spring makes a lot more sense after today's release of their new XC group and the R7 Pro, though even that doesn't get IRT!

The dropper is an adult model, but supposedly they are working on a 80 mm kids model.


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

We bought a 24", 100mm, J-Unit for my daughter's Rocky Mountain and we are pretty happy with it, but Manitou / Hayes recently changed their website and I can no longer find the pdf tuning guide, I can only find the pdf service guide. Anyone know the link to the tuning guide?

Thanks


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## weevie (Dec 2, 2011)

Prob not what you want, and likely written on fork anyway, but we also only have the basic data

100-120mm Travel -24in Wheel

Rider Weight Air Pressure
LBS KGS PSI [BAR]
40 18 31-37 2.1-2.5
60 27 46-55 3.2-3.8
80 36 62-74 4.3-5.1
100 45 77-92 5.3-6.4
120 54 92-111 6.3-7.6
MAX PRESSURE NOT TO EXCEED 120 PSI [8.3 BAR]


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

Thanks, I did go by that on the fork but I thought I saw an in depth document on their website a few months ago.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

nobody special said:


> We bought a 24", 100mm, J-Unit for my daughter's Rocky Mountain and we are pretty happy with it, but Manitou / Hayes recently changed their website and I can no longer find the pdf tuning guide, I can only find the pdf service guide. Anyone know the link to the tuning guide?
> 
> Thanks


Nice work Dad, that's a hell of an upgrade!! Just set it up like an adult fork. Start with 25% sag and go from there, you'll likely get a better setup.

NOTE that when you add air into the shock, you need to really screw down the shock pump (depending on your pump) to ensure you get connected to BOTH air chambers. Otherwise they won't equalize and the shock will suck down and not fully extend. Fwiw once connected you can compress the travel very slightly if you want to "tune" that air chamber as well to make the fork even plusher. You likely won't need it to be plusher tho, its pretty amazing.


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

nobody special said:


> We bought a 24", 100mm, J-Unit for my daughter's Rocky Mountain and we are pretty happy with it, but Manitou / Hayes recently changed their website and I can no longer find the pdf tuning guide, I can only find the pdf service guide. Anyone know the link to the tuning guide?
> 
> Thanks


The recommended pressures are listed at the end of the service guide, page 22.

I never saw recommendations for the compression and rebound, but for rebound did somewhat of a sliding scale between the highest and lowest based on weight/pressure in fork. More pressure, more damping (more clockwise). For compression damping, start pretty open (full counter clockwise) and if bottoming out on larger drops consider closing a bit (turning clockwise), assuming recommended pressure in fork/appropriate sag. If you see a more formal guide please post. At 70 lbs (around the middle of the weight range) we ended up about in the middle for both.


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

Thanks, I've seen the service guide page and we have it set around 40 psi (she is about 52 lbs). It is not sagging to 25%, maybe closer to 15%, but she likes how it rides and I don't want to mess with it too much. Right now we have everything open, she is only 52 lbs, and we need more trail time on it.

We don't have big drops, but we do have a lot of tamer downhill style sections that are full of roots, so the higher pressure may get dropped soon. Granted the mostly steel XCM with two coil springs that we removed, I could only compress about 1.5" under my 230lbs, so the J-Unit at "higher" pressure is still way better. I can compress the J-Unit all the way and her 75lb brother can bottom it out on the jumps. Granted if he really tries he can also bottom out his 150mm Recon, so maybe that's not saying much.

I could have sworn I saw a turning guide for compression and rebound and whatever else, but maybe I just remember wrong.

Thanks


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## nobody special (Jun 21, 2019)

Also, it was $300 from Star Bike but it took a month to arrive from Germany. Happy with the price/performance so far.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

If it was me I'd drop to approx 30 to get it at proper sag. This setup would be tip-top I bet.

1- Low speed rebound - wide open (you can adjust to your liking be pressing down on the bars and seeing if they "top out" hard or too fast. Wide open at this PSI is probably best).
2- Low speed Compression - maybe 1-2 (from open) clicks to help it ride higher if its wallowing in spots...but I highly doubt you'll have any of that going on at her weight.

@cake if the fork is bottoming out on big hits, the spring rate isn't right and would need more air (or volume spacer) rather than some LSC.


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

svinyard said:


> If it was me I'd drop to approx 30 to get it at proper sag. This setup would be tip-top I bet.
> 
> 1- Low speed rebound - wide open (you can adjust to your liking be pressing down on the bars and seeing if they "top out" hard or too fast. Wide open at this PSI is probably best).
> 2- Low speed Compression - maybe 1-2 (from open) clicks to help it ride higher if its wallowing in spots...but I highly doubt you'll have any of that going on at her weight.
> ...


@svinyard

I thought it was a "general compression damping" that was both high and low speed. If low speed you are totally correct, just going to influence slow movements(pedaling, braking, pumping). It might slightly effect bottomout as you always have to go through low speed damping speeds to get to high speed, but minimal.

But for example many forks do not have separate high and low speed rebound, it changes both. I do not see them differentiate on their description, so would be good to know.

We could ask Hayes, or if someone has a Dyno we could figure it out! A dyno curve for this fork would be cool to see anyway!

Manitou ABS+ damper is what I think is in there...

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/setup-guide/tuning-high-speed-compression-damping

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/media/wysiwyg/Manitou ABS+Tuning Guide.pdf


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

cakemonster said:


> @svinyard
> 
> I thought it was a "general compression damping" that was both high and low speed. If low speed you are totally correct, just going to influence slow movements(pedaling, braking, pumping).
> 
> ...


That's the nice thing about the Manitou stuff is that its all their same adult components. 
You can google their ABS+ damper and see the tear down of it. The compression is just the typical LSC you see on most forks.

Most every common fork on the market just has LSR/LSC for adjusters (if they have them). The HSC/HSR are preset to match each other and I'm told (by suspension tuners) work really well once the spring rate is dialed. Rule of thumb is to dial in the spring rate first and then use the compression/rebound to stabilize the fork and suit personal needs. If you use HSC to prevent bottoming out (my 36 grip2 has this) it can prevent the bottom out but without the spring rate first being dialed (properly preventing bottoming out) that means my rebound etc is likely going to be screwy since it depends on it. You don't want to overwork the hydraulics with a task that the spring should be doing is the idea.

That's what I've been told at least but I dunno...the stuff gets confusing pretty fast for me. I listened to Steve at Vorsprung go through a session on all that and my eyes bled.


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## cakemonster (Sep 30, 2012)

svinyard said:


> That's the nice thing about the Manitou stuff is that its all their same adult components.
> You can google their ABS+ damper and see the tear down of it. The compression is just the typical LSC you see on most forks.
> 
> Most every common fork on the market just has LSR/LSC for adjusters (if they have them). The HSC/HSR are preset to match each other and I'm told (by suspension tuners) work really well once the spring rate is dialed. Rule of thumb is to dial in the spring rate first and then use the compression/rebound to stabilize the fork and suit personal needs. If you use HSC to prevent bottoming out (my 36 grip2 has this) it can prevent the bottom out but without the spring rate first being dialed (properly preventing bottoming out) that means my rebound etc is likely going to be screwy since it depends on it. You don't want to overwork the hydraulics with a task that the spring should be doing is the idea.


Agree on setting sag/spring rate, and possibly progression (volume spacers for adult), then other things.

Just unsure of whether the compression dial it works more like the rebound curve in this video (single dial, all speeds), or more like a low speed compression adjuster (preload):






Agree, in a kid, need very little compression damping relative to adult.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

The ABS+ has been around a while. From what I can tell its a needle based LSC adjuster on top and the HSC is a shim stack that apparently is pretty tune-able which makes sense that it works so well in the JUnit forks. I run our 145mm so that its rare that it bottoms out, but its still fairly plush...running a couple clicks of LSC helps keep some pop to it but not harsh on the bigger hits. Its nice.

Dougal has a good run down on it: (very cool dude, super helpful)
https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/setup-guide/tuning-low-speed-compression-damping


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Any reason not to consider a 24" fork with less travel on a 20" bike with 20x2.6-2.8?

That would allow a person to transfer the fork to a bigger bike later. 

Have a 6yo girl who is on a 20" currently....


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Manitou lists the A2C of the 20" JUNIT fork in 120 mm travel as 430 mm, and the A2C of the 24" JUNIT fork in 100 mm travel as 455 mm. A 25 mm change in A2C is pretty huge on a 20" bike.

If you're looking to upgrade a 20" fork, I've got you covered: https://forums.mtbr.com/families-ri...rado-100mm-fork-tr27-front-wheel-1148409.html


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## wildh (Jun 20, 2011)

Just sent ya a PM Dan.


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## andrewlunt (Aug 21, 2020)

*Set up Assistance*

Hey all

I'm new to Manitou in general and just got one on the Commencal Meta 20" for my kid. 100mm travel.

Just been looking for a set up guide but can't find anything. ive tightened the shock pump tight onto the air valve and put in the pressure recommended on the for. My child is around 40-45lbs. Couple of questions

1. I've read online the +ve and -ve pressure chambers and that they equalize each other. am I right just to tighten the shock pump on and pump to the recommended pressure and it should set both? do I set to the Main or the ITA (I think thats what it says on the fork) recommended pressure
2. Ive opened the rebound wide open feels good, the lower the rebound the fork doesn't actually fully extend back out, is that the case?
3. ABS + ill google this but wondering if anyone can give me some info on what their settings are for this. 
4. with current settings and just me I can only get this to use about 90mm of the 100mm available travel. any thoughts on this.

I will set the sag with my child tomorrow just thought I'd ask some advice.

Ive generally had FOX or Rock Shox forks which ive never really been confused by and there is an abundance of set up info online.

thanks


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## keen (Jan 13, 2004)

nm..


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

For those interested in picking up any of the JUNIT gear for their kiddos, Hayes is having a sale this Labor Day Weekend. They are advertising it as 20% off site wide, but that isn't quite the case. Still, the sale includes the Machete 20" and 24" forks, Pro Taper bars & grips, Duroc 30 wheels & rims, and Dominion brakes. Some items also aren't currently in stock.


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## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

anyone know what the difference between the 2020 and the 2021 (which is now labeled as junit elite). They both show the same MSRP ($449.99) but with the sale now, the one that isnt labeled MY21 is a bit cheaper.

https://hayesbicycle.com/collection...-matte-black-1-5-taper?variant=32139636113453

and

https://hayesbicycle.com/collections/junit/products/my21machetejunit_z?variant=34635433836589


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

I think the main thing is a small amount of weight savings:

20"

'20 model:
3.55 lbs = 1610g

'21 model:
1574g


24"
'20 model:
3.8 lbs = 1720g 

'21 model:
1689g


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## jaybert (Sep 10, 2020)

TimTucker said:


> I think the main thing is a small amount of weight savings:
> 
> 20"
> 
> ...


Confirmed with hayes/manitou the only difference is updated look. Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ddbear (Mar 21, 2021)

Is there some way to install the Manitou Machete JUNIT 20 on our kids *Giant STP 20 FS* bike? The Giant STP 20 comes with Suntour XCT L20 coil fork.

*Bike specs:*








STP 20 FS (2021) | Trail bike | Giant Bicycles US


With a lightweight aluminum frame, smooth front suspension, smaller 20-inch wheels and geometry that’s designed specifically for young riders, the new STP can be a first step toward playful adventures in the dirt. Versa...




www.giant-bicycles.com




*Existing Suntour fork specs:
Steerer tube diameter *1-1/8", *Travel *63mm, *Crown *AC4C, *Pitch *126mm, *Brake *Postmount 160mm Direct, *Steerer tube *1-1/8" (TS),STKM, *Axle *9-100mm Dropout

Update: from what I'm researching, it looks like I would need the Cane Creek 40 Series EC44/40 Conversion Headset Bottom Assembly?

(The Giant bike frame tube outside diameter is 50mm so I would guess it is 44mm on the inside.)

Even if I get the Cane Creek adapter; the downside however, is that the existing axle is 9-100mm and the Manitou fork is 15mm Thru x 110mm, so then I would have to buy a new wheel? (and have mismatching wheel sizes, or also replace the rear wheel...)


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

ddbear said:


> Is there some way to install the Manitou Machete JUNIT 20 on our kids *Giant STP 20 FS* bike? The Giant STP 20 comes with Suntour XCT L20 coil fork.
> 
> *Bike specs:*
> 
> ...


For the J-unit fork you'll need a 44EC lower cup and a new hub as it is a 15mm boost. I've just done this to Sophie's bike. My son had a 20 inch riprock so I used the front rim from that and an XTR boost hub that are pretty cheap to buy new. The rear was already converted as the riprock has a 7sp cassette and I upgraded it to 10sp so I put that wheel on as it was lighter than the OE spec one. I wouldn't bother with the rear unless it is stupidly heavy.


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## ddbear (Mar 21, 2021)

Tanks much POAH, looks like Sophie has a great setup! I went ahead and ordered the Manitou Machete JUNIT 20, along with Cane Creek 40 Series EC44/40 Conversion Headset Bottom Assembly, Sunringle Duroc 30 20" wheels (boost front, QR rear), and Kenda 20x2.40 Booster TR Tires (idea inspired by your photo). I'm really hoping the EC44 adapter works, or else I'll have to return all the parts I just ordered and start from the beginning. 😱 Sounds like this fork should work though. 😍


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Here is what I used on our 20" Spawn Yama Jama to convert from the straight headtube to allow the tapered fork. It worked really well.

Headset lower up (include bearing etc):
Amazon.com : Funn Descend Lower Headset EC44/40 : Sports & Outdoors

Just use a rubber mallet and a piece of wood to lightly go around and tap out the lower cub. I then set the new headsetup and put a 2x4 over it and lightly tapped it in with the mallet.

The stock wheels we had were not boost, but the fork is. So we used the following kit to convert the front wheel. All very simple. 
Amazon.com : Dymoece Front Rear Bicycle Boost Hub Conversion Adapter, Front 15mm x 100mm to110mm : Sports & Outdoors

FWIW RMCDan here and Fitek guided me through all this so I take no credit. The new fork and slacker geo has been a godsend tho. Immediately the kid rode harder and didn't go OTB once a ride. Huge improvement. You want the ripcord to slacken out if you can. You can probably get the travel set around 120mm maybe and get it to 66d or maybe even 65.5d. My oldest rides a 65HTA on this fork (Clash) and its nothing but good times up and down. Plus the Ripcord has a fairly long reach, so losing a bit there (due to slackening it) won't hurt. You might slide the seat a bit forward to account for the slacker STA but it should be good to go imo.


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## ddbear (Mar 21, 2021)

Thoughts on the Machete Junit Pro? This must be a newly introduced fork model because I can't find any reviews or mentions anywhere. It has IRT (Infinite Rate Tune).









Machete JUNIT Pro


Description The JUNIT Pro is the evolution of our JUNIT suspension line. Building off of the already incredible JUNIT Expert, the Pro offers an added level of adjustability with IRT (Infinite Rate Tune). IRT offers improved small bump sensitivity without sacrificing any mid to late stroke...




hayesbicycle.com





I was thinking of getting the regular Junit and then dialing it in with my ShockWiz. But I am tempted to get the Junit Pro instead for the benefits of IRT with lightweight kid riders. Although IRT variable compression shocks are not compatible with ShockWiz. But then how would I dial it in with all the settings when kids are not so experienced in giving feedback about subtle differences? The bike is too small for me to ride it and test the adjustments.


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## ddbear (Mar 21, 2021)

Another question, the axle to crown length of the Machete Junit is 410mm, and 390mm (minimum) for the Machete Junit Pro. (With the EC44/40 bottom cup adapter it would be a bit longer than this.) The bike has an existing axle to crown length of 375mm. Is there a way to shorten the axle to crown length of these Junits so I can match the existing geometry (which seems to work pretty well for our kid)? Or should I let it get longer for a more slack geometry?


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

ddbear said:


> Is there some way to install the Manitou Machete JUNIT 20 on our kids *Giant STP 20 FS* bike? The Giant STP 20 comes with Suntour XCT L20 coil fork.
> 
> *Bike specs:*
> 
> ...


Sounds like you've got the wheels and headset sorted. On two Scott Roxter bikes we've had to machine half of the lip off the 44mm cups to make them fit. The head-tubes weren't reamed deep enough from the factory and it was easier to fix the cup than the frame.

For axle-cown and travel. These forks use 10mm clip-in travel spacers. Reducing travel reduces the height. I would take the J-unit striaght to about 80mm travel and see how that goes. I went down to 50mm on a Scott Roxter 20" and will be increasing it as kids grow and ride harder.

The J-unit Pro is new and I haven't seen one yet. Tuning IRT can be tricky even for clued up adults. Each fork works best with a different ratio of high and low pressures so some experimentation is necessary. Forget the shock-wiz, use the travel check o-ring as your primary measure of what works.


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## ddbear (Mar 21, 2021)

Dougal said:


> Sounds like you've got the wheels and headset sorted. On two Scott Roxter bikes we've had to machine half of the lip off the 44mm cups to make them fit. The head-tubes weren't reamed deep enough from the factory and it was easier to fix the cup than the frame.
> 
> For axle-cown and travel. These forks use 10mm clip-in travel spacers. Reducing travel reduces the height. I would take the J-unit striaght to about 80mm travel and see how that goes. I went down to 50mm on a Scott Roxter 20" and will be increasing it as kids grow and ride harder.
> 
> The J-unit Pro is new and I haven't seen one yet. Tuning IRT can be tricky even for clued up adults. Each fork works best with a different ratio of high and low pressures so some experimentation is necessary. Forget the shock-wiz, use the travel check o-ring as your primary measure of what works.


Great tips Dougal! Another variable that will help me retain the geometry is the sag. I checked the sag on the existing 60mm coil Suntour fork, and the coil is so stiff (or little rider so light) that I couldn't measure any sag at all. The current geometry seems to work very well for him. I wonder if I should set all the dimensions on the new J-unit fork so that 20% sag on the J-unit is the same axle to crown distance as the current fully extended distance (375mm)?

I am so curious what it's going to be like when we try to tune the J-unit Pro with IRT. The ability to get some initial plush travel on IRT is attractive since he's light weight.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

As far as the travel adjustment goes...you can firmly screw in a shock pump and then depress the fork to the desired level. This basically adds more air into the negative channel which will make it softer off the top and also reduce the static travel. I wouldn't go crazy with it and drop like 40mm but for small amounts it'd be sweet. @Dougal is there some downside to doing this? Does it change the end stroke perhaps?

For that STP, slacker is your friend as the HTA is 69d (like a DJ) and likely around 70d under load. Pretty dang steep. Obviously the extra fork length will increase the stack and BB height which won't be ideal at some point so you'll have to find a balance point.


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## airwreck (Dec 31, 2003)

Check that headset on the Giant and make sure there are cups and it's not an integrated style where there is only a crown race and bearing, it may be machined heat tube instead of cup.


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## Leh Cycling (Jun 14, 2021)

REPOST:

So in my deep internet searching it seems like a lot of people have hands on experience with this fork.

I have rebuilt a few other forks successfully but this one is giving me trouble.

I have a Junit Machete 20" that came set up as 120mm. I have a custom made bmx frame that I had made heavily influenced by the Fingers Crossed BMX project going on. Despite my 155lb weight the fork performed fantastic out of the box

I've been riding the bike as a 120mm fork with the pressure set very low to over come the excessive slack in the frame design. about 50% sag. This worked fantastic when riding at my local MTB park however the recoil traveling all the way out of 120mm made the bike jump really weird.

So after 4 months I decided to take the fork apart and adjust the travel, hopefully make it stronger and more progressive as a shorter fork. The fork externals say that the travel is 100mm-120mm. You could get it in 100mm or 120mm stock however the manual on the Manitou fork says you can adjust the travel down to 80mm and the spacers to do so where included.

I took the fork apart cleaned everything and reassembled. Now I'm having tons of issues with the negative pressure. I read on a number of other posts that this fork has a two level air fill port and that the pump needs to be seated super far down to allow air to pressurize both the + and - chamber. Here's the catch, I think it's possible/likely I may have damaged the air valve in the process of removing the fork lowers. I didn't have a "thin walled socket" so I used the 4mm hex to finish the job by rotating the last few turns. This was mentioned on one of the other posts about this fork as an alternative. However I think I may have damaged the top of the air spring valve enough to where I can't compress the pin in the valve to fill the positive chamber and the shock is only filling the negative air chamber. The valve isn't leaking however the valve pin does seem to get stuck down and needs to be manually pulled up to about 1.5mm above the threaded top of the valve.

Now the fork is "sucked down" about 20%of the total 80mm travel and the fork clearly does not have positive pressure. Basically I get on the bike and it bottoms out to 0 travel and rebounds back extremely slow if at all. The amount of pressure I put in the shock doesn't change the sag at all. It feels like It's filling both cambers equally if that makes sense and it's just dampening up and down from the middle point. I tried the zip tie trick. I tried the pulling on the fork legs to release the neg camber pressure. I rebuild the entire air spring a 2nd time and cleaned up and re greased everything. Same thing....

So here's my questions.

1. Can you actually set the JUNIT up as 80mm or is it only 100mm or 120MM?

2. Did I totally **** my air spring by pressing in the valve too far when I used the 4mm allen? Or is this just a function of the small amount of wear on the end of the valve pin not allowing the pump to press the valve down enough to fill the positive chamber. I'm using a FOX analog shock pump. I was thinking about trying to add a tiny droplet of epoxy to the end of the pin to give my shock pump a little more room to push down the pin.

3. What is the proper replacement air spring for this fork and can I upgrade it with other models? The manual lists 

KIT, EXPERT AIR, 32MM 20" 80/120 141-36683-K005 
However I can't seem to find that replacement part listed on any site.

4. Has anyone used this kit in their J unit? Is there an option where I can replace the J unit's air spring top cap with one with a Positive pressure valve rather than relying on the single two way valve on the bottom? I'm searching for a good way to make the fork more progressive. Dorado Incremental Volume Adjust (IVA) Replacement / Upgrade Kit

Anyway I hope others who have dealt with this fork can help out.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Hey man, I haven't torn down our JUnit's yet but am planning on it. First of all, a thin walled 8mm socket is about 6$ on Amazon with 1 day shipping I think .

2ndly...I think you are fine. This has happened to me and the solution was to just use a different shock pump. Not all shock pumps will compress that extra pin to allow air to equalize in both chambers. I'm guessing this is what is happening to you. You could also just try screwing on the shock pump really tight too. When you get it on there, the fork will likely just equalize and the stanchions will extend fully. Getting it to 80mm should be easy enough with just the snap-on travel adjusters. From what I can tell, each travel adjusters adjusts it by 10mm I think.

On a side note, I want to service mine. Do you have any advice or tricky areas that I should watch out for? I have all of the tools aside from the 22mm crows foot (is this needed) and the seal press (I think I can use a big socket to press them in unless someone tells me otherwise). Also, how long did it take you? I can tear down my Fox 36 pretty quick (just changing the oil etc) but I'm unsure on the JUnit side. I've seen the manual and read through it a few times.

As far as a heavy body using the fork, I don't think its an issue at all. My understanding is that there is no "kids bike standards" and so these main components all have to go by the adult standards for being built.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Leh Cycling said:


> REPOST:
> 
> So in my deep internet searching it seems like a lot of people have hands on experience with this fork.
> 
> ...


First thing to try is a different pump. Some pumps depress the centre core differently to others.
These forks can be set anywhere in the travel with spacers. Each spacer makes a 10mm difference to travel and length. The spacers need to go up by the air-piston.
This is the 24" version of the air-spring. I haven't checked if the core of the assembly is the same or not: Machete JUnit 24" Air Spring Assembly (Manitou) | Shockcraft


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## Leh Cycling (Jun 14, 2021)

svinyard said:


> Hey man, I haven't torn down our JUnit's yet but am planning on it. First of all, a thin walled 8mm socket is about 6$ on Amazon with 1 day shipping I think .
> 
> 2ndly...I think you are fine. This has happened to me and the solution was to just use a different shock pump. Not all shock pumps will compress that extra pin to allow air to equalize in both chambers. I'm guessing this is what is happening to you. You could also just try screwing on the shock pump really tight too. When you get it on there, the fork will likely just equalize and the stanchions will extend fully. Getting it to 80mm should be easy enough with just the snap-on travel adjusters. From what I can tell, each travel adjusters adjusts it by 10mm I think.
> 
> ...


So I did find a solution to this issue if anyone else has it thanks to some friendly folks at my LBS who suggested dropping a ball bearing inside the end of the shock pump (mines a fox) and screwing it on. That way you can screw it in the perfect amount to hit the +/- chamber. I got the shock pumped back up and it works perfect again. The Valve stem end is definitely finicky and I got the "screw your pump on tighter" reply from Manitou so this is definitely a common issue. I imagine that this valve needed to be .5-1mm longer to fit MOST shock pumps and catch both cambers and still compensate for the eventual wear and tear on the end of this valve. The bearing should be about the size of a BB pellet. Smaller the better really. Crazy easy fix.

Far as the actual rebuild goes everything was pretty standard aside from the thin walled socket which I WILL GET! While it's possible to use the 4mm hex at the end you definitely run the risk of wearing down your valve end. REMEMBER that the threads go clockwise to remove so it's counter the direction of Rockshox and Fox. I don't think you need the crows foot wrench. I used a regular adjustable wrench. All the slider ends are plastic on this fork so it's not required to put a ton of pressure on these. It definitely helps to flat grind all your sockets ahead of time. I ground mine flush since all of them are for bike stuff anyway.

I would say that be sure to take the retaining clip hiding in the threads that attach the large white plastic slider attached to the air spring. Get inside that and pop out the O ring that slides on the air spring and really clean that area out. I found lots of debris in that area. Gave it a good wash out with Triflow and then wiped it down clean for for grease. I definitely had to slide the shaft around with grease on it a bunch before everything felt buttery. Don't skip on that detail.

My timeline was pretty long because I rebuilt it so many times trying to diagnose the air problem. I would say if you know what you are doing it shouldn't take any longer than a FOX. However i do think it was easier than my Revelation which has C clips holding in the air springs which are a pain in the ass... It would probably take me 45min to an hour at most if I decided to redo all the seals. Just doing a lower cleaning and oil only takes 10-15min.

The bottom out bumper on mine had broken off one of the small tabs and was lopsided so check for those because they can get sucked into the air shaft

I think the problem folks have experienced with this fork being too stiff is fairly standard with this fork although at first glance it's defantly more plush after a full air spring re grease.
I don't have it yet but I'm going to add this to my fork. Dorado Incremental Volume Adjust (IVA) Replacement / Upgrade Kit
I would expect it to allow lighter riders to actually put some useable pressure in with out the fork being too hard. I think adding all the volume spacers might really help the progression curve of the fork.


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

Just ordered one of these to put on a Riese & Müller Load 60 electric cargo bike. Can't wait to try it out!


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Leh Cycling said:


> So I did find a solution to this issue if anyone else has it thanks to some friendly folks at my LBS who suggested dropping a ball bearing inside the end of the shock pump (mines a fox) and screwing it on. That way you can screw it in the perfect amount to hit the +/- chamber. I got the shock pumped back up and it works perfect again. The Valve stem end is definitely finicky and I got the "screw your pump on tighter" reply from Manitou so this is definitely a common issue. I imagine that this valve needed to be .5-1mm longer to fit MOST shock pumps and catch both cambers and still compensate for the eventual wear and tear on the end of this valve. The bearing should be about the size of a BB pellet. Smaller the better really. Crazy easy fix.
> 
> Far as the actual rebuild goes everything was pretty standard aside from the thin walled socket which I WILL GET! While it's possible to use the 4mm hex at the end you definitely run the risk of wearing down your valve end. REMEMBER that the threads go clockwise to remove so it's counter the direction of Rockshox and Fox. I don't think you need the crows foot wrench. I used a regular adjustable wrench. All the slider ends are plastic on this fork so it's not required to put a ton of pressure on these. It definitely helps to flat grind all your sockets ahead of time. I ground mine flush since all of them are for bike stuff anyway.
> 
> ...


Depending on which lowers you have, I think that IVA kit may or may not fit.

We've LOVED how plush the fork is off the top (you can tune it a bit too). Especially over the junk that comes on trail craft, our spawn and Ripcords etc its LIGHT years better. I just messed with the new Reba 26" and it was way overdamped. What % of sag are you running or are you following the PSI chart? Skip the chart, go with sag if you aren't and compress the fork a bit with shock pump on too...it'll add a bit more plushness. My oldest boy bottoms his out once in a while but my 6yro doesn't as often, tho he gets deeper into it when he fails to pop a jump just right and lands front wheel heavy. We are running PSI quite a bit lower than the chart tho. Around 20-25% sag I think


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## MajorClod (Sep 1, 2020)

I'm looking at the Norco Fluid 24 FS1 or FS2 for when my boy outgrows his 20" hard tail.

The FS1 is listed with the J-Unit Expert Air, while the FS2 lists the J-Unit TS Air.

From what I can find, the TS Air uses a negative coil spring vs the Experts negative air spring.

Any feedback on perceptible differences between these two versions when in use?


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I have some experience with the two. The FS1 build is what you want. If the price is too much, consider the YT Primus 24" as its a pretty sweet/similar build as the FS1 at a cheaper price.

The difference between the forks is stark. The TS Air spring is a single chamber, basic air spring. Compared to the dual chamber Expert air spring, it sucks. For running this low of PSI with light riders, you absolutely want the Expert Air in my opinion. I don't recall if the dampers are different are not.

In addition to the gimped fork, the FS2 has a much lower build on it. The Alex wheels aren't great (some are down right awful...not sure which version they have, we have some awful Alex wheels hanging on the wall). The brakes suck. I also don't care for those Crown Vee Gems on an All Mountain bike like this, compared to the FS1 DHR2/DHF. Its crazy how much the FS1 is now tho. 3400$....crazy. It used to be like 2600$.

Eitherway, the 1999$ Primus 24" is an INSANE value if you can get one sometime in the future. In some ways its a better bike than the 3300$ Norco. Apparently you can pre-order for Jan 2022 delivery. We have the Clash 24" that we bought for 1999$ a couple of years ago. They are now 3100$ (shipping is spendy btw too I think). It initially came with long cranks, horrendous Alex wheels, bad brakes, etc. We customized it and through a dropper on it. They now come with a decent component stack thats better.



MajorClod said:


> I'm looking at the Norco Fluid 24 FS1 or FS2 for when my boy outgrows his 20" hard tail.
> 
> The FS1 is listed with the J-Unit Expert Air, while the FS2 lists the J-Unit TS Air.
> 
> ...


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## MajorClod (Sep 1, 2020)

svinyard said:


> I have some experience with the two. The FS1 build is what you want. If the price is too much, consider the YT Primus 24" as its a pretty sweet/similar build as the FS1 at a cheaper price.


Thanks for the feedback. I'm in Australia and the FS1 is around $2400 USD locally. Still relatively cheap given our covid times. For comparison, the Jeffsy Primus is around $2600 via the local distributor.

Everything else (Clash, Maxwell 24, Hellion X24, etc) are all at minimum $800-1200 USD more! So the Norco or YT at the moment seems the way to go.


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## gramr (Jun 15, 2021)

Just wanted to say that this fork is amazing on a cargo bike. Massive, massive improvement from the stock friction-damped, poorly-sealed, loose-bushing-having Suntour piece of crap.

The super-plush Manitou just swallows curbs whole without upsetting the chassis.


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## Kookmyers (Nov 2, 2021)

Received my 120mm expert version that I bought used. The steering tube was cut to 8” and there is a star nut installed along with a crown race but it weighs 1750 grams without the brake line holder or the mudguard. Feels very heavy.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

That's about right for a 24". The newer models come with updated lowers that cut weight a bit 50-60g iirc. I wouldn't let that 50-100g there bother you at all tho. There's nothing else that comes close to these forks. The weight difference between that Junit and something like the RST First that Trail Craft used to spec was likely just the difference in the axle (thru-axle vs QR) but the performance difference is massive.

The really light forks from Trailcraft (TC30), Prevelo, Spawn (used to use these) and Lil Shredder are pretty old tech. They are all the same fork. They are pretty smooth and work with low PSI but the damper and air spring are awful. I've serviced them and my kids used the 20" version. Its just not the same at all if you are familiar with the internals. The JUnit Expert is closer to a mid-range Fox 34 (Similar guts) than one of those. So while they are like 1450g grams, the performance difference is vastly different.



Kookmyers said:


> Received my 120mm expert version that I bought used. The steering tube was cut to 8” and there is a star nut installed along with a crown race but it weighs 1750 grams without the brake line holder or the mudguard. Feels very heavy.


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## Kookmyers (Nov 2, 2021)

thank you. What do you think is going to happen when I install the 120mm on this frame? Will it be a disaster?


https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0012/7041/5440/products/[email protected]?v=1609712568


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

Kookmyers said:


> thank you. What do you think is going to happen when I install the 120mm on this frame? Will it be a disaster?
> 
> 
> https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0012/7041/5440/products/[email protected]?v=1609712568


Look like it would be ok. A2C is 410mm for the bike with the J-UNIT 20 120mm fork having an A2C of 430mm. You could just space it down to 110mm easy enough though.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

Agreed, especially since its a tapered headset and you shouldn't have to use an external cup adapter to fit the fork in. If you don't want to open the fork up but still want to reduce travel a bit, you can firmly connect your shock pump and then manually compress the fork 10-20mm. Then remove the shock pump and the fork will remain at that travel level. It works well. Since the reach is on the short side for a 24", I'd be a bit conscious of over forking it too much due to the loss of reach when you do.

What's the headtube angle on it? I think something around 66 is really good, or heck even 65d perhaps wouldn't be bad since it's a hardtail and steepens up under-sag by a degree-ish. If it's steeper than that, a zerostack angleset from Wolftooth could drop it a degree without adding stack/external cups.



POAH said:


> Look like it would be ok. A2C is 410mm for the bike with the J-UNIT 20 120mm fork having an A2C of 430mm. You could just space it down to 110mm easy enough though.


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## Kookmyers (Nov 2, 2021)

POAH said:


> Look like it would be ok. A2C is 410mm for the bike with the J-UNIT 20 120mm fork having an A2C of 430mm. You could just space it down to 110mm easy enough though.


Thank you but we’re talking about the 24” with a A2C of 455. My mistake in not being more clear. Also, I previously thought I was going with the 120 24” but I ended up with the 100mm.


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## Kookmyers (Nov 2, 2021)

svinyard said:


> Agreed, especially since its a tapered headset and you shouldn't have to use an external cup adapter to fit the fork in. If you don't want to open the fork up but still want to reduce travel a bit, you can firmly connect your shock pump and then manually compress the fork 10-20mm. Then remove the shock pump and the fork will remain at that travel level. It works well. Since the reach is on the short side for a 24", I'd be a bit conscious of over forking it too much due to the loss of reach when you do.
> 
> What's the headtube angle on it? I think something around 66 is really good, or heck even 65d perhaps wouldn't be bad since it's a hardtail and steepens up under-sag by a degree-ish. If it's steeper than that, a zerostack angleset from Wolftooth could drop it a degree without adding stack/external cups.


I wish I knew the head tube angle. It is being represented as being similar the the Trailcraft pineridge. (Doityourselfcarbonbikes). So I think the angle will be steep. It comes with a headset but I’ll have to look into your suggestions…thanks! By the way…I ended up with the 100mm version of the fork. It seems to be bottoming out at 74mm (?).


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## Kookmyers (Nov 2, 2021)

Kookmyers said:


> I wish I knew the head tube angle. It is being represented as being similar the the Trailcraft pineridge. (Doityourselfcarbonbikes). So I think the angle will be steep. It comes with a headset but I’ll have to look into your suggestions…thanks! By the way…I ended up with the 100mm version of the fork. It seems to be bottoming out at 74mm (?).





svinyard said:


> Agreed, especially since its a tapered headset and you shouldn't have to use an external cup adapter to fit the fork in. If you don't want to open the fork up but still want to reduce travel a bit, you can firmly connect your shock pump and then manually compress the fork 10-20mm. Then remove the shock pump and the fork will remain at that travel level. It works well. Since the reach is on the short side for a 24", I'd be a bit conscious of over forking it too much due to the loss of reach when you do.
> 
> What's the headtube angle on it? I think something around 66 is really good, or heck even 65d perhaps wouldn't be bad since it's a hardtail and steepens up under-sag by a degree-ish. If it's steeper than that, a zerostack angleset from Wolftooth could drop it a degree without adding stack/external cups.


If you reduce the travel with you suggestion above, do you undo that by adding pressure? I’ve hooked up my pump but only to remove pressure from 75 to about 35. I haven’t tried pumping it back up.
Edit: I pumped it up to about 90. No change in the travel.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

It’s bottoming out at 74mm of travel? You are likely hitting the rubber bumper. It’ll compress but is fairly firm.

The A2C is going to be a bit of an issue with the steep frame design and long head tube (HTL is 110mm). You’ve got an extra 45mm of fork length to deal with. Perhaps the frame was designed to be used with a 65mm travel fork.

Are you hard committed to the frame already?



Kookmyers said:


> I wish I knew the head tube angle. It is being represented as being similar the the Trailcraft pineridge. (Doityourselfcarbonbikes). So I think the angle will be steep. It comes with a headset but I’ll have to look into your suggestions…thanks! By the way…I ended up with the 100mm version of the fork. It seems to be bottoming out at 74mm (?).


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## Kookmyers (Nov 2, 2021)

svinyard said:


> It’s bottoming out at 74mm of travel? You are likely hitting the rubber bumper. It’ll compress but is fairly firm.
> 
> The A2C is going to be a bit of an issue with the steep frame design and long head tube (HTL is 110mm). You’ve got an extra 45mm of fork length to deal with. Perhaps the frame was designed to be used with a 65mm travel fork.
> 
> Are you hard committed to the frame already?


Yes. It’s on its way from china. 
Measuring the fork, I only have 89mm from the top of the seal to the bottom of the lowest part of the angled metal. So something is going on inside. I plan to call manitou tomorrow. 
I bought it secondhand and the seller is not responding to any communication. Do you think I have a chance at a PayPal protection claim going my way? It was posted on Pinkbike but the ad has been removed. All I can say is that it is a 100mm fork and currently could not possibly travel that far. I measure the A2C at 440mm.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

The fork is very likely fine. The displayed travel is easily distorted on modern forks with dual chamber air springs. My Fox Factory 36 doesn't show a perfect 150mm of exposed stanchion and neither with this JUnit fork (likely).

This is by design and the negative chamber sucks in the fork a bit, which vastly improves the suppleness off the top that kids especially need imo. The other thing potentially going on is that the neg chamber is over-filled just a bit. This can happen when filling it and manually compressing it a bit with the shock pump still on it. Its a feature not a downside.

You can try this if you want to "see" all of the exposed 100mm of stanchion:
1- firmly screw on a shock pump (it has to engage both of the pins on that weird Schrader valve as it fills both chambers instead of just one (which would suck the entire fork in). If it doesn't work then use a different shock pump.
2- Manually pull on the fork to fully extend it. Then remove the shock pump and the fork will stay that way.

Note that when these modern forks came out in 2018 (for Fox at least) etc or with the Vorspring stuff, some people (myself included) didn't get it and kind of freaked out about seeing "exactly all 150mm of exposed stanchion" even tho that had zero impact on performance. You just want to get the fork setup right, get the sag set right (don't follow the charts) and then all will be well from there. I'm 99.9% sure your fork is fine.

What your fork does need tho is a service if it was used or just sitting around for a long time. With new seals, oil, o-rings etc the thing will be BUTTTERY smooth again. Its not a hard service to do and the service kit is like 38$ I think and the manual is pretty decent. I think I put up a post on the finer points that came up and weren't covered in the directions well. I can answer any questions you might have about the process or tools (not many).


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## POAH (Apr 29, 2009)

Kookmyers said:


> Thank you but we’re talking about the 24” with a A2C of 455. My mistake in not being more clear. Also, I previously thought I was going with the 120 24” but I ended up with the 100mm.


Be too much for the frame


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## Kookmyers (Nov 2, 2021)

I inserted my frame’s geometry picture into MS Visio and tried my best to get some geometry data. The seat tube angle is being shown as 72. The head tube angle looks to be the same but my drawing shows it as 71. The BB height is 275.
Adding 45mm to the fork length results in the following changes.
BB height 292.45
Seat tube angle 69.5
Head tube angle 68.5
I did not account for the fact that their numbers are based on a rake of 38 and the new forks rake is 42.


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

I’m guessing it’s going to get pretty wonky. What’s the reach up at? Reach for a 24” is typically 350mm to 370mm. I’m wondering if the frame ends up with reach similar to a 20” on this


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## Kookmyers (Nov 2, 2021)

As designed, with the 410 fork, the reach is 334.5


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

You might run the bike geo calc (website) to see what the reach (one of most important geos) ends up with the 40mm extra (iirc) of A2C on the fork. It will likely be around 320mm I’d guess. Maybe it’s all good as kids are pretty adaptable…but it’s definitely more akin to the reach of a 20” bike which likely not what you were shooting for.


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## rton20s (Aug 27, 2010)

Well, it looks like the forks have hit Aliexpress as the "MANITOU MACHETE JUNIT COMP." There are a few different vendors and it looks like there are some deviations between what is offered. I know with Aliexpress there is zero guarantee of what you'll get, but one vendor who provides zero detail shows the sticker on the fork leg listing "TS Air Spring." The others do list an Expert Air Spring, but they do not look like the current Expert models. Pricing is about 25-30% less than legit pricing I have seen on the 20" model. I'd be really curious to know what internals got stuffed into the forks.


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