# Keto diet a fad?



## Picard (Apr 5, 2005)

Does anyone practice keto diet?
What the heck is it? 

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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

Go to the Akins diet website. Ton of info. There are now many marketed variants with questionable claims. Basically, you are tricking your body into a state of starvation. The brain and muscles prefer glucose as an energy source. When that is taken away the body has to look to fat as an energy source. You are now in a state of ketosis. However many can not tolerate being in that state for prolonged periods of time. 

Many diets are ketogenic, not a true state of ketosis, but a diet relatively low in carbs. Diets should have low levels of homemade pasta, brown rice and whole grains. Minimally processed root vegetables are a better source of carbs. 

Knowledge is evolving. Fats that were unacceptable before are now in vogue. I have a container of bacon grease on my stove. Carbs back in the day used to be okay but are now evil. Americans typically get enough protein. Vegans have to be more attentive. 

I’m a carnivore and I have a smoker so I’ve been on the original Akins diet. I’m not paying a company to keep me at a low carb count. 

Caveat- if your not in a true state of ketosis and say if you’re eating lots of nuts, bacon and other calorie dense foods, you may gain weight. Low carbs is not necessarily a get out of jail free card. 


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## TMWTP (Nov 20, 2015)

2 years on keto. I really love it, and find it easy to stick to. Works very well with intermittent fasting.

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## TylerVernon (Nov 10, 2019)

Did keto for about six months, it was ok. I don't need to lose weight. Advantages were no hunger cravings and more steady energy on and off the bike. I read some things that it was bad in the long term so I switched to a low carb hybrid of 2 days with carbs/5 days without. This is also much more manageable just living life because no one wants to be that guy at a party who can't eat this or that.


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## mrallen (Oct 11, 2017)

Isn't every diet a fad?

Keto seems to work for everyone I know that has tried it and it's easier to stick to than other diets it seems. The flip side is that unless you stay on it, you tend to end up back where you started.


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## TMWTP (Nov 20, 2015)

mrallen said:


> Isn't every diet a fad?
> 
> ... The flip side is that unless you stay on it, you tend to end up back where you started.


That is the case with every diet.

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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

TMWTP said:


> That is the case with every diet.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


So true, including bariatric surgery..... and I likes to eat

At least for me when I drastically limit my carbs and when I do partake it's in the form of rice, fried potatoes or corn tortillas but not processed sugary stuff, my carb cravings are limited. If I want something sugary I should eat a piece of fruit.

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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

I've been keto for about two years, and have evolved into more of a carnivore way of eating recently. The changes have been dramatic, well beyond weight loss....reduced inflammation, improved mental health, etc. and I don't plan to ever go back to eating manufactured processed crap that makes me sick ever again. This isn't a fad, this is the way humans have sustained themselves for millions of years.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

My brother-in-law is on the keto and he's annoying as hell about it. He lost some weight and preaches the benefits non stop. There are some ultra-marathon runners on keto but as far as I'm aware keto is not a good diet plan for anyone doing high intensity type workouts but there is no performance loss when it comes to longer endurance type activities. 

It's not for me since I eat pasta and bread religiously with no plans on slowing down.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Train Wreck said:


> My brother-in-law is on the keto and he's annoying as hell about it. He lost some weight and preaches the benefits non stop. There are some ultra-marathon runners on keto but as far as I'm aware keto is not a good diet plan for anyone doing high intensity type workouts but there is no performance loss when it comes to longer endurance type activities.
> 
> It's not for me since I eat pasta and bread religiously with no plans on slowing down.


Eventually pasta and bread will slow you down weather you plan to or not. It's called insulin resistance, or type II diabetes.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

_CJ said:


> Eventually pasta and bread will slow you down weather you plan to or not. It's called insulin resistance, or type II diabetes.


Not too worried about it, thanks for the tip though :thumbsup:


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## TMWTP (Nov 20, 2015)

Chronic high Insulin, and inflammation are silent killers. Almost all diseases can be linked to inflammation. Keto and carnivore are very anti-inflammatory. Keeping carb intake low, and therefore insulin low may help prevent disease. Given the crap food we have in the states, avoiding carbs might be the only way. Carbs in other countries don't have the excess, processed sugar. Specifically fructose, which is processed differently than other carbs. 

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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

Do you riders on Keto take a multi-vitamin?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Train Wreck said:


> Do you riders on Keto take a multi-vitamin?


Electrolytes are most often what people on keto need to supplement while riding long distances, but that's probably true for anyone.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

_CJ said:


> Electrolytes are most often what people on keto need to supplement while riding long distances, but that's probably true for anyone.


I was actually focusing more on fruits and vegetables with their naturally occurring carbs. I'm sure you didn't cut them completely out of your diet but cutting back could still deprive your body of important nutrients it needs. So that's why I ask, do you take a multi-vitamin? Rely on low carb fruits and veggies? Another source?


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## TMWTP (Nov 20, 2015)

Almost all vegeatables are 'keto friendly,' most fruits are not. 'Net carbs' are what you are trying to keep low. Basically, fiber doesn't count. I supplement with a multivitamin, as well as several minerals...most noteably 2 different types of magnesium, turmeric, lots of sodium, and plenty of other electrolytes. Without the electrolytes, my blood pressure will get pretty low.

Anything that is high on the glycemic index is out because it spikes insulin. Keeping blood glucose low, and insulin low is the point of keto. Therefore, fruits, for the most part, are out. Especially fruits high in fructose.

One very cool thing I've noticed when I'm in ketosis is that I do not need to feed during long rides. Ketones are a much more stable fuel source, and do not get depleted as quickly as glycogen. I still carry gels, but I haven't used them for myself in a couple of years. It's mostly for emergency situations, or for other riders. On the flip side, I do carry a small container of salt, and put 0 carb electrolyte powder in my water.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Train Wreck said:


> I was actually focusing more on fruits and vegetables with their naturally occurring carbs. I'm sure you didn't cut them completely out of your diet but cutting back could still deprive your body of important nutrients it needs. So that's why I ask, do you take a multi-vitamin? Rely on low carb fruits and veggies? Another source?


Personally, I've moved into carnivory, and eat no fruit, and very few vegetables. The funny thing about carbs is that they increase your requirements for various nutrients. If you cut out the carbs, you don't need anywhere near the RDA levels, which aren't based in science anyhow. I used to take a multi-vitamin while a vegetarian, but didn't need them as much with keto, and have almost no need for them now with carnivory.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

I'm glad it works for you, it seems a bit extreme to me but I trust you've done your research and are experiencing some health benefits so who am I to judge.


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## TMWTP (Nov 20, 2015)

_CJ said:


> Personally, I've moved into carnivory, and eat no fruit, and very few vegetables. The funny thing about carbs is that they increase your requirements for various nutrients. If you cut out the carbs, you don't need anywhere near the RDA levels, which aren't based in science anyhow. I used to take a multi-vitamin while a vegetarian, but didn't need them as much with keto, and have almost no need for them now with carnivory.


Do you eat a lot of organ meats as well? Nose to tail? I'm contemplating that route, but not sure how much I'll like the organs.

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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

For me, keto helped me lose weight when I was a fat ass. More than a decade later, I’m training/riding/racing mtb & need all the (healthy) carbs I can get in my normal diet & sucrose/fructose 1:1 at about 80 grams carb/hour fuels my riding. On average, 70% of my daily calories comes from carbohydrate. Keto doesn’t work for high intensity riding. I felt lousy riding at a leisurely pace while in keto. Maybe had I slowed down more, it would’ve been ok but if you want performance on the bike, carbs are your friend. 

*note to keto fans -I’m not here to argue for dozens of posts with you, just sharing my opinion & what I know to work for me & the vast majority of cyclists riding at high intensity levels. You may be an outlier & can ride for hours at 90% ftp with nothing for fuel but you’re body fat but I seriously doubt it*


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

TMWTP said:


> Do you eat a lot of organ meats as well? Nose to tail? I'm contemplating that route, but not sure how much I'll like the organs.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


The only organ meat I eat is liver via liverwurst once a day. I don't know that it's really of much benefit, but I enjoy it. I do eat a lot of eggs which I think is far more important nutritionally.

I should probably clarify that "carnivory" is defined as 70% or more of your diet from animal products. I'm going deep at 90-95% this month, but expect to start adding some fresh fruit and more veg this summer as a seasonal variation of sorts, which I guess might be more paleo, but I'll still maintain at least 70% animal based, and I still try to stay in ketosis through high fat content and intermittent fasting, riding while in a fasted state, etc.

It's pretty clear that if you want to be fast, and ride at a high intensity level, consuming carbs during your ride is essential. But don't confuse fast with healthy. You can follow a keto diet and add carbs for high intensity rides/races though, and I'm just starting to research that. There's a guy named Zach Bitter who seems to be at the leading edge of that stuff. While not race pace fast, I do feel great when riding long distances in a fasted state, often experiencing a feeling euphoria that I never experienced while on carbs. Riding 4-8 hours with nothing but water and electrolytes and feeling great became the norm once I became fat adapted.

.


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## TMWTP (Nov 20, 2015)

You make a great point that seems to concur with some of my research. 90% of ftp is pretty hard to maintain on keto. Although more long-term research needs to be done at the highest levels of endurance athletes. In my personal experience, maximum sustainable power has increased slowly with improved fitness and decreased weight, but I'm pushing 50, and have no desire to race ever again. I'm not the guy going for KOMs. 

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## TMWTP (Nov 20, 2015)

_CJ said:


> The only organ meat I eat is liver via liverwurst once a day. I don't know that it's really of much benefit, but I enjoy it. I do eat a lot of eggs which I think is far more important nutritionally.
> 
> I should probably clarify that "carnivory" is defined as 70% or more of your diet from animal products. I'm going deep at 90-95% this month, but expect to start adding some fresh fruit and more veg this summer as a seasonal variation of sorts, which I guess might be more paleo, but I'll still maintain at least 70% animal based, and I still try to stay in ketosis through high fat content and intermittent fasting, riding while in a fasted state, etc.
> 
> ...


Sounds like 'targeted keto.' That's what I'm going to try if I can get down to my goal weight.

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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

When I get to goal weight I add healthy carbs if I’m working out intensely. Most pro athletes, ie ones that are able to live comfortably on a pro’s salary are not on pure keto diets. Let’s face it, that’s what separates the men and the women from the boys and the girls. Glucose is a more efficient energy source. Most, myself included, overindulge with carbs.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

I'm not going to tell anyone else what to eat, so if keto works for you, great.

My opinion is that keto is an extreme diet, and the long-term effects are unknown. It seems like it requires significant lifestyle changes to implement, and it also seems to compromise athletic performance at the top end. It seems unlikely to be a good long-term solution for most, though it'll surely work for some. 

Interestingly there is lots of compelling evidence that using ketones for fuel is good for you, but even more evidence that it's metabolic plasticity that should be the goal. This is the idea behind intermittent fasting: get into ketogenesis during fasting, then fuel with carbs upon breaking the fast to get back out. That approach seems easier to live with as an athlete (fuel with carbs before/during rides) and probably consistent with human evolution: get hungry, kill a mammoth or find a fruit tree, get fed. 

My approach is some intermittent fasting, and Mediterranean-type diet with plenty of veggies, most fat coming from olive oil and nuts, protein from veggies, fish and poultry. Honestly I think the most important thing you can do for long-term health is learn to cook good food from whole ingredients.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

For what its worth, here's an article from _Bicycling_ and it is on their list.

5 Fad Diets to Ditch in 2020


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

chazpat said:


> For what its worth, here's an article from _Bicycling_ and it is on their list.
> 
> 5 Fad Diets to Ditch in 2020


Interesting they didn't have any actual recommendations for diet, and pretty much equated the quality of the diets to anaerobic performance, and/or short duration competition. Smells of click-bait to me.

As I've said before, just because it's good for racing, doesn't mean it's good for your overall health. Top fuel cars run really fast on nitro methane, but not for long.


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## jmmUT (Sep 15, 2008)

TMWTP said:


> Almost all diseases can be linked to inflammation.
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Um, no. Just no.

Health (and the world in general) is far far too complex for single "Magic Bullet" solutions or causes.

And while many things (be sure as heck not all diseases) may have inflammation, it's often because your body is doing that in response to the issue. If I get a bump on the noggin and it swells, it ain't the inflammation that's the problem. It's the falling on my head that's the problem.

And pushing such bad info can in fact be dangerous when people ingore or avoid getting real treatments.


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

_CJ said:


> Interesting they didn't have any actual recommendations for diet, and pretty much equated the quality of the diets to anaerobic performance, and/or short duration competition. Smells of click-bait to me.
> 
> As I've said before, just because it's good for racing, doesn't mean it's good for your overall health. Top fuel cars run really fast on nitro methane, but not for long.


If you're riding any higher in your power or HR range than mid/upper zone 2, your best source of fuel will be carbohydrate. It's really not up for debate. To your point, I haven't hit anaerobic power levels since October & ive changed my diet to include 70% carbohydrate 15% protein 15% fat daily (or there about). I'm able to train/ride harder, im getting stronger & faster, I'm losing weight & my body fat is decreasing. I'm healthier than I've ever been. I have energy for my workouts & the RPE is lower if I'm properly fueled with carbs.

I've done the keto thing to lose weight initially & it was great to help me shed pounds quickly when I was morbidly obese but those days are gone & there is no way that diet would support the riding I'm doing now. If I were walking or jogging or even riding at a jogging pace -yes, I could burn fat to fuel my rides but I don't know anyone who actually rides like that. But if you can/do, that's great but I'd wager you'd perform better with more carbohydrate as fuel.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

_CJ said:


> Interesting they didn't have any actual recommendations for diet, and pretty much equated the quality of the diets to anaerobic performance, and/or short duration competition. Smells of click-bait to me.
> 
> As I've said before, just because it's good for racing, doesn't mean it's good for your overall health. Top fuel cars run really fast on nitro methane, but not for long.


Ok, try this:

https://health.usnews.com/best-diet/best-diets-overall

Spoiler alert:

Keto came in 34th (out of 35) for Best Diets Overall, tied for 3rd for Best Fast Weight-Loss Diets and dead last in Best Diets for Healthy Eating.

_Why would diets that are considered good at helping drop weight quickly be ranked so badly overall?

"The 'best' way to lose weight fast is to do something very silly, unsustainable and arguably irresponsible. It's not truly best - just fast," said Katz, who is the president of the True Health Initiative, a non-profit organization dedicated to health promotion and disease prevention

"Many things that are truly bad for health can cause short-term weight loss," Katz said. "The most effective diets for 'fast' weight loss impose severe restrictions that cannot be maintained and would not be compatible with health if they were."

That's because quick weight loss diets usually emphasize some drastic cut in nutrients or the elimination of an entire food group that can't be maintained over time. When the diet stops, the weight comes back, often at higher levels than at the start of the diet. It's the body's response to "yo-yo" dieting, studies show.

"Spending your life weight-obsessed, and going on and off diets, is no way to live," Katz said. "One of the things we hope to convey to the American public is that it's time to grow up about diet and give it more respect.

"Grown-ups don't generally expect to 'get rich fast;' they understand the need to work, over time," Katz continued. "But everyone thinks there is some magic formula they haven't tried yet for rapid weight loss. The consensus of the U.S. News judges is a resounding rebuke of that silly idea."_

https://fox4kc.com/2020/01/02/best-...nked-by-experts-with-a-popular-one-near-last/


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

redwarrior said:


> If you're riding any higher in your power or HR range than mid/upper zone 2, your best source of fuel will be carbohydrate. It's really not up for debate. To your point, I haven't hit anaerobic power levels since October & ive changed my diet to include 70% carbohydrate 15% protein 15% fat daily (or there about). I'm able to train/ride harder, im getting stronger & faster, I'm losing weight & my body fat is decreasing. I'm healthier than I've ever been. I have energy for my workouts & the RPE is lower if I'm properly fueled with carbs.
> 
> I've done the keto thing to lose weight initially & it was great to help me shed pounds quickly when I was morbidly obese but those days are gone & there is no way that diet would support the riding I'm doing now. If I were walking or jogging or even riding at a jogging pace -yes, I could burn fat to fuel my rides but I don't know anyone who actually rides like that. But if you can/do, that's great but I'd wager you'd perform better with more carbohydrate as fuel.


well yeah, I'm not arguing otherwise, but that doesn't make diets that don't support high intensity exercise "bad", or a "fad".

Personally, I'm more focused on endurance riding now, and anything over 3 hours was a death march in the past on carbs. Now I can ride 8+ hours on nothing but water and feel great doing it. Am I fast? I don't know or care, but faster than the HCLF guy passed out on the side of the trail half way through the ride because he ran out of food. For me, "performing better" is defined by the ability to ride further, and feel good doing it. Being free from having to eat/drink X amount of carbs per hour, etc. and speed is kind of irrelevant.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

chazpat said:


> Ok, try this:
> 
> https://health.usnews.com/best-diet/best-diets-overall
> 
> ...


yes, there's plenty of people out there who have been making a living for a very long time by towing the party line, and now they're threatened, so they're lashing out. The reality is that this isn't a "diet" for most people, it's a way of eating that most of use will stick with for the rest of our lives. People can stick with it forever because they don't feel starved. That's what makes it sustainable. I love the old chestnut about how people will gain weight back when they "get off the diet". Well yeah, when you go back to eating garbage, what do you expect? What these critics don't know is that the cravings for all that crap go away. All the hysteria about it being bad in the long term, damaging your health, etc. has been proven false. People are thriving on HFLC diets, and that's a problem for a lot of people who have been making a lot of money pushing garbage food, and the drugs, and treatments for the conditions they create.

No amount of propaganda from anyone is going to change the mind of people like myself who's health has improved beyond belief by switching to a HFLC way of eating. No more joint pain, no more tooth decay, no more depression or manic mood swings, no more dependence on constant feeding, better sleep, and the list goes on.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

_CJ said:


> &#8230;I don't plan to ever go back to eating manufactured processed crap that makes me sick ever again.





_CJ said:


> yes, there's plenty of people out there who have been making a living for a very long time by towing the party line, and now they're threatened, so they're lashing out. The reality is that this isn't a "diet" for most people, it's a way of eating that most of use will stick with for the rest of our lives. People can stick with it forever because they don't feel starved. That's what makes it sustainable. I love the old chestnut about how people will gain weight back when they "get off the diet". Well yeah, when you go back to eating garbage, what do you expect? What these critics don't know is that the cravings for all that crap go away. All the hysteria about it being bad in the long term, damaging your health, etc. has been proven false. People are thriving on HFLC diets, and that's a problem for a lot of people who have been making a lot of money pushing garbage food, and the drugs, and treatments for the conditions they create.
> 
> No amount of propaganda from anyone is going to change the mind of people like myself who's health has improved beyond belief by switching to a HFLC way of eating. No more joint pain, no more tooth decay, no more depression or manic mood swings, no more dependence on constant feeding, better sleep, and the list goes on.


The first quote above is where your issues were from. So be careful of cause and correlation. But a lot of people are going to believe what they want to believe.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

chazpat said:


> The first quote above is where your issues were from. So be careful of cause and correlation. But a lot of people are going to believe what they want to believe.


The "processed crap" I was eating was "healthy" according to the medical establishment of the past 50 years, I was vegetarian for 13 years, vegan for a short time after that, and yes I agree that following their advise was the source of my problems.

High carb works great, for a while. Eventually, insulin resistance and inflammation will catch up with anyone eating that way.


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## Sidewalk (May 18, 2015)

I'm on a See Food Diet.

Based on my FTP*, W/Kg, how long I can sustain my power numbers, my weight, my race results, my stoke levels, I think I choose the right diet for me.

*Haven't tested in about a year, don't care anymore, I know where I am.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

_CJ said:


> The "processed crap" I was eating was "healthy" according to the medical establishment of the past 50 years, I was vegetarian for 13 years, vegan for a short time after that, and yes I agree that following their advise was the source of my problems.
> 
> High carb works great, for a while. Eventually, insulin resistance and inflammation will catch up with anyone eating that way.


Ok, I'll bite: what were you eating? The fruits and vegetables my wife buys and that we grow aren't processed.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

The older diets focused on caloric restriction, and elimination of all fats. This resulted in people eating lean protein and processed “low calorie” marketed garbage. 

A pure ketosis diet is NOT ideal. It is for quick weight loss and helping to move past a plateau which the final few pounds remain. 

Ideally, one should be aware of caloric intake. If you’re fat, you are taking in too many calories. It’s that simple. There’s psychosocial and genetic issues that can play a huge part, but at the end of the day I eat too much. 

Even Dr. Akins would recommend his diet as a last resort and even then it recommends transitioning into a ketogenic diet. 




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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

For one to live on a ketogenic diet. You need to look at your fat sources. If most come from animal fat. You need to eat grass feed, or wild caught. Animals feed on corn and soy have different fat structures and types of fat than if they ate what they would normally. 

One should stay away from corn,soy,conola oils and stick with nuts,avacodo, olive and coconut oils.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

_CJ said:


> The only organ meat I eat is liver via liverwurst once a day. I don't know that it's really of much benefit, but I enjoy it. I do eat a lot of eggs which I think is far more important nutritionally.
> 
> I should probably clarify that "carnivory" is defined as 70% or more of your diet from animal products. I'm going deep at 90-95% this month, but expect to start adding some fresh fruit and more veg this summer as a seasonal variation of sorts, which I guess might be more paleo, but I'll still maintain at least 70% animal based, and I still try to stay in ketosis through high fat content and intermittent fasting, riding while in a fasted state, etc.


I didn't know carnivore means 70% from animal. but makes sense since carnivore animals also eat some plants. When you say "animal product", do you exclude dairy? I would assume a carnivore (like an wolf) would eat meat and other natural animal products, not dairy.

I doubt liverwurst contains much liver, but for sure a lot of unhealthy stuff. Yes, it is very tasty, though. I eat organic grass feed beef liver weekly. Liver tastes much different than liverwurst. It gives me a lot of minerals and vitamins. the Inuit and other carnivore humans eat fresh hunted liver for that reason.

non-starchy vegetables, nuts (inc. avocado), eggs, salmon, shelfish, liver give you all the nutrients you need.

Corn, wheat (and processed at that) don't contain necessary nutrients.


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

This article - https://physiqonomics.com/how-low-carb-diets-work/ - does a good job of explaining the dynamics.

I would argue that diets aren't magic...the magic is in establishing new patterns of behavior which can be very tricky.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

chazpat said:


> Ok, try this:
> 
> https://health.usnews.com/best-diet/best-diets-overall


No one should ever cite the USN&WR diet list as an authoritative source for anything, ever. They've been recycling the list (and most of the copy) for years and years. It's pure clickbait trash, as evidenced by the fact that every year the "worst" diet is that year's most popular fad diet. At the same time, stupid BS like Jenny Craig, Nutrisystem, SlimFast (yes, SlimFast is still a thing, somehow) and The Biggest Loser Diet (because you should definitely be following the diet used on a show that hasn't been on the air since 2016 and follow-up studies showed >90% of contestants regained all the weight they lost and often ended up even heavier) maintain mid-pack rankings every year.


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## pnchopwr (Aug 6, 2015)

I started keto a year ago because I got to a weight I wasn’t happy with. The following spring I started mountain biking again. A lot. In a little over a year I’ve lost over 100 pounds. I didn’t know any loss of power to my cycling, because I didn’t have a fitness base to go off of beforehand. I do know that eating keto, I can ride longer than my riding buddies that do high carb without needing to fuel mid ride. I also know that I can ride fasted if need be, and still keep up just fine. Most of these guys have been riding MTB for 10-20 years. They’re all still faster than me on the downhill portions (I’m still working on my descending confidence), but I can catch and pass them on the climbs. Keto ya been fantastic for me. I don’t see it not being sustainable in the long term. I don’t think of it as a diet, I think of it as a lifestyle change. Anytime you go back to the lifestyle that got you to where you were, you run the risk of ending back up there. So sure, any diet can be “terrible” or the worst diet ever. If you lose a bunch of weight, then go back to the habits that caused you to gain the weight in the first place, you’re going to put it all back on. Also, what works for me might not work for you, and that’s ok. We are all biologically different.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

silentG said:


> This article - https://physiqonomics.com/how-low-carb-diets-work/ - does a good job of explaining the dynamics.
> 
> I would argue that diets aren't magic...the magic is in establishing new patterns of behavior which can be very tricky.


Totally wrong, Keto is NOT a high protein diet. Moderate protein and not the 30% protein the article you linked suggests. The Atkins diet was a bit on the higher protein side, but Keto is high fat.

Just that single very obvious failure that they base their whole hypothesis on shows me how valid that article is.

One can argue for or against certain lifestyles, but please stay with facts what that lifestyle actually is. This is like someone saying they don't like road bikes because rear suspension is too heavy (just to stay with a bike topic on a bike forum


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

chazpat said:


> Ok, I'll bite: what were you eating? The fruits and vegetables my wife buys and that we grow aren't processed.


Processed garbage in for me was bread, cereal, oatmeal, pasta, crackers, chips, low fat or fat free dairy, almond milk, margarine, corn/seed oils, tofu, imitation meat products, etc.

It was all "healthy" according the medical establishment. The reason I went vegetarian is because my doctor told me I needed to do something about my cholesterol. My cholesterol didn't improve, my blood pressure was creeping ever higher, and my weight was creeping up year after year, and they told me "that's just part of getting old". Then a friend of mine who's a little older than me, and had been "just getting old" too went keto and turned it all around inside of a year, so I gave it a shot, and it's been miraculous. All health markers have improved, and I feel better than I have in years....maybe better than ever if you include mental health and endurance.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

HerrKaLeun said:


> I didn't know carnivore means 70% from animal. but makes sense since carnivore animals also eat some plants. When you say "animal product", do you exclude dairy? I would assume a carnivore (like an wolf) would eat meat and other natural animal products, not dairy.
> 
> I doubt liverwurst contains much liver, but for sure a lot of unhealthy stuff. Yes, it is very tasty, though. I eat organic grass feed beef liver weekly. Liver tastes much different than liverwurst. It gives me a lot of minerals and vitamins. the Inuit and other carnivore humans eat fresh hunted liver for that reason.
> 
> ...


Yes, I include dairy. There are way too many zealots that come out of the woodwork when you use a term like carnivore or vegan. I recently quit a carnivore group because of the people taking it to the extreme. I call them "meat vegans". Thinking I just need to start saying "meat based" or something.

A typical day for me is as follows:
Breakfast: coffee, black.
Lunch: eggs fried in bacon fat, cheese, salt, pepper, and meat
Snack: hot dog and liverwurst with mustard or shrimp/salmon
Dinner: Some sort of meat dish with a side of green vegetables.

As for the liverwurst I eat the first ingredient is liver. Yes, there are some preservatives, etc. but enough to worry about. I eat hot dogs and bacon too, both of which have been demonized by fake studies, and aren't of any concern either.

There haven't been any studies that show grass fed has any benefit over traditionally raised livestock, but I do still buy it from time to time. I always buy pasture raised eggs though because there really is a difference there. I also get plenty of salmon, shrimp, etc. to cover my nutrients. I had been eating a ton of nuts, but have cut that down significantly lately.

And let's not forget that the RDA of vitamins and minerals isn't based in science. They were established based on people's opinions, nothing else. There are people walking around who eat nothing but beef, salt, and water without any deficiencies or need for supplementation. The same can't be said for vegans.


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## silentG (May 18, 2009)

I think you are missing the point there.

Horses for courses and all that. If something works for someone it works but being dogmatic about the one true way seems a bit silly.

Silly is good though at times so silly away.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Processed garbage in for me was bread, cereal, oatmeal, pasta, crackers, chips, low fat or fat free dairy, almond milk, margarine, corn/seed oils, tofu, imitation meat products, etc.





_CJ said:


> A typical day for me is as follows:
> Breakfast: coffee, black.
> Lunch: eggs fried in bacon fat, cheese, salt, pepper, and meat
> Snack: hot dog and liverwurst with mustard or shrimp/salmon


Why demonize "processed garbage" in one post and then praise processed food in the next? Fake studies? To what end?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Why demonize "processed garbage" in one post and then praise processed food in the next? Fake studies? To what end?


None of what I listed in the second post is "processed garbage", it's "health food".

Fake studies.....you can do your own research, but the Cliff's notes are that most of the studies everyone accepted as fact for the past 50 years were written by people (Ancel Keys, etc.) who started with an answer, and then manipulated the data to "prove" their theory. Many authors of studies demonizing meat, animal fats, nitrates, etc. were also vegans and/or Seventh Day Adventists.

.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> None of what I listed in the second post is "processed garbage", it's "health food".


Hot dogs are health food? Damn, no wonder I'm so sickly, I've been avoiding those things for years! 

Many recent and exhaustive studies have found processed meat to be carcinogenic, evidence seems pretty solid and I really don't think it's a conspiracy but who knows? I guess.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

_CJ said:


> None of what I listed in the second post is "processed garbage", it's "health food".
> 
> Fake studies.....you can do your own research, but the Cliff's notes are that most of the studies everyone accepted as fact for the past 50 years were written by people (Ancel Keys, etc.) who started with an answer, and then manipulated the data to "prove" their theory. Many authors of studies demonizing meat, animal fats, nitrates, etc. were also vegans and/or Seventh Day Adventists.
> 
> .


I could not care less what you eat, knock yourself out. But...

This is laughable. But I am a cancer researcher, and can absolutely confirm that processed meats and nitrates cause cancer. The World Health Organization categorizes processed and cured meats as a Class I carcinogen.

Here's a rather unbiased study on the matter, out just last year:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30993317

Here they just asked a large number of people (400,000+) what they ate, and followed up to confirm this with a large number of them (175,000). Then they tracked them for 5 years, looking for major adverse health outcomes and seeing whether they were correlated with diet. They found that those who consumed more red and processed meat had a higher rate of colorectal cancer, while those who consumed more fiber had a lower rate. They did not set out to test anything specific or "demonize" anything, they just looked at how people ate, whether they got cancer, and then looked for correlations. They found, for example, that high vs low consumption of fish, poultry, cheese, fruit, vegetables, tea and coffee were not associated with colorectal-cancer risk.

This is my problem with keto, and indeed with any diet that excludes whole classes of macronutrients: there is just no long-term data on the outcomes. Maybe you feel great now, more power to you. But if I were eating what you're eating, and given all we know about diet and health, I would be worried about cancer and heart disease long term.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

DrewBird said:


> I could not care less what you eat, knock yourself out. But...
> 
> This is laughable. But I am a cancer researcher, and can absolutely confirm that processed meats and nitrates cause cancer. The World Health Organization categorizes processed and cured meats as a Class I carcinogen.
> 
> ...


Weak, biased, false, and epidemiological studies, claiming causation based on correlation. Your "increased risk" of getting cancer from eating red meat is less than one percent IF you believe their data was accurate and unbiased.

What's laughable is that you continue to spew these lies and collect a paycheck in the process. You're part of the problem. Anyone who has been paying attention knows recent research has debunked the claims that nitrates and red meat cause cancer.






.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

It's a conspiracy I tell ya, them crazy vegans are trying to take over the world!


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

This thread needs to be nuked asap


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

Re-read the first line of my post. Eat all the hot dogs you can stomach dude, it's your ass (literally).


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## andy f (Jan 13, 2004)

Train Wreck said:


> This thread needs to be nuked asap


Your post has been reported to the Seventh Day Adventists.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

andy f said:


> Your post has been reported to the Seventh Day Adventists.


Interestingly 7th Day Adventists (who I gather mainly follow a veggie-heavy pescatarian Mediterranean-type diet?) live longer and have way lower rates of all kinds of chronic diseases than the general population. I didn't know about the Adventists' diet or these studies, which are pretty interesting. Thanks _CJ!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventist_Health_Studies

Then again this is presumably part of the conspiracy, and YouTube Guy With A Dog Under His Arm is the only one who's telling it like it is.


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## andy f (Jan 13, 2004)

DrewBird said:


> Interestingly 7th Day Adventists (who I gather mainly follow a veggie-heavy pescatarian Mediterranean-type diet?) live longer and have way lower rates of all kinds of chronic diseases than the general population. I didn't know about the Adventists' diet or these studies, which are pretty interesting. Thanks _CJ!
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventist_Health_Studies
> 
> Then again this is presumably part of the conspiracy, and YouTube Guy With A Dog Under His Arm is the only one who's telling it like it is.


I can't decide whether or not to report you.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

andy f said:


> I can't decide whether or not to report you.


I don't know anything about the religious beliefs, but the Adventists seem to have the lifestyle side figured out. Live in SoCal, eat lots of salmon and avocados, live to be 100. Could be worse!

So yeah sure, go ahead and throw me to the Adventists....


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## andy f (Jan 13, 2004)

DrewBird said:


> I don't know anything about the religious beliefs, but the Adventists seem to have the lifestyle side figured out. Live in SoCal, eat lots of salmon and avocados, live to be 100. Could be worse!
> 
> So yeah sure, go ahead and throw me to the Adventists....


No beer.


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## yzedf (Apr 22, 2014)

_CJ said:


> Weak, biased, false, and epidemiological studies, claiming causation based on correlation. Your "increased risk" of getting cancer from eating red meat is less than one percent IF you believe their data was accurate and unbiased.
> 
> What's laughable is that you continue to spew these lies and collect a paycheck in the process. You're part of the problem. Anyone who has been paying attention knows recent research has debunked the claims that nitrates and red meat cause cancer.
> 
> ...


Sighs....



> RESULTS: During an average of 5.7 years of follow-up, 2609 cases of colorectal cancer occurred. Participants who reported consuming an average of 76 g/day of red and processed meat compared with 21 g/day had a 20% [95% confidence interval (CI): 4-37] higher risk of colorectal cancer. Participants in the highest fifth of intake of fibre from bread and breakfast cereals had a 14% (95% CI: 2-24) lower risk of colorectal cancer. Alcohol was associated with an 8% (95% CI: 4-12) higher risk per 10 g/day higher intake. Fish, poultry, cheese, fruit, vegetables, tea and coffee were not associated with colorectal-cancer risk.


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## DirtnDogs (Dec 11, 2014)

_CJ said:


> A typical day for me is as follows:
> Breakfast: coffee, black.
> Lunch: eggs fried in bacon fat, cheese, salt, pepper, and meat
> Snack: hot dog and liverwurst with mustard or shrimp/salmon
> ...


I think we've arrived at a curious place where this diet of healthy, natural, whole foods that humans have eaten for thousands of years (we've been eating meat for over 2 million years) is considered the fad. I've eaten very similar to this for the past 6 years after 30 years of vegetarianism and there's no way I'd go back. I also fell for the orthodoxy of low fat, meat is bad, 'healthy' whole grains are good, etc. and it absolutely did not end well. I get pastured eggs from my backyard chickens, grass fed beef, veggies, raw milk, pastured chicken from local farmers all within a 12 mile radius of my house. No more bread, pasta, soy burgers, horrid lentil loafs, etc. Wish I'd never gone down that rabbit hole all those years ago but we just didn't have the same kind of access to information back then that we have now.

This recent study exonerates red meat, even processed meat: https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/...e3903Nn_PPAZ3I5SfRXzqhbCeyIKd8qvQz_Pkw3cQB7tY

I know a vegan who died of colon cancer. She never got a colonoscopy because she believed the studies that claimed only meat eaters got colon cancer. It was a terrible tragedy. I have a vegetarian friend who's an athlete in his 50s and just had a cancer scare and his health is terrible in general. I could go on but I won't because it makes me sad to see my friends suffering for ideology.

I don't even know where to start with the Adventists. Many of them don't actually follow vegetarian diets though they claim to. Their beliefs are based on religious ideology, not what's best for human health. The objection to meat is that it causes men to be lustful and masturbate. Seriously, I can't make this stuff up. From there they twist and contort reality through poor 'studies' to fit their religious beliefs.

I also don't care what other people eat. More meat for me. I saw a guy on Facebook urging people to eat Impossible Burgers at Burger King, 'C'mon you guys, you gotta try these at least once. Glyphosate aside.' If folks want to eat heavily processed soy laced with carcinogens, knock yourselves out. But it's sad when these foods are normalized and the foods of our ancestors, foods that we evolved eating, are now considered the fad.


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## andy f (Jan 13, 2004)

I'm all for a locally produced, minimally processed approach to eating but I don't have a weight or health issue that has me wanting to try something like dramatically limiting carbohydrate intake. I love quality meat, eggs, and whole milk dairy. Sausages made by a few local butchers, too. But I also love the variety of local ice creams, breads, pies, and beer. I want onions and carrots in my braised short ribs and I want it served over gnocchi. 

Now i'm going to contradict myself regarding processed foods: I started using Tailwind and/or EFS on my rides instead of food last year. I previously used plain water and trail mix or some other mix of nuts and dates or figs on my rides. My first ride with Tailwind, I took 45 minutes off of what was previously a 3.5 hour ride so I've stuck with it.


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## HerrKaLeu (Aug 18, 2017)

DrewBird said:


> I could not care less what you eat, knock yourself out. But...
> 
> This is laughable. But I am a cancer researcher, and can absolutely confirm that processed meats and nitrates cause cancer. The World Health Organization categorizes processed and cured meats as a Class I carcinogen.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information. Like with all studies, probably something to it.
But the problem with many food studies is they are self-reported (do you know off-hand if you ate 76g meat the last 5 years?) and also only look at one cancer. What about the other 1000 civilization diseases? The study also seemed to assume processed meat (i assume stable grocery meat, lunch meat etc.). I bet fresh organic grass fed meat will be better than Oskar Mayer hot dogs.

There also is a difference to people that eat cheap carbs and meat, or people that eat healthy food with meat.

I guess whatever diet one follows, the less processed and the fewer ingredients the better. I like to hear what unprocessed foods a carb eater could eat besides fruit and vegetables? Seems most carb foods are highly processed (bread, noodles, pizza, bleached rice which on its own wouldn't taste). Basically leaves potatoes and beans, both only can be eaten cooked.


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## DrewBird (Apr 11, 2007)

I'm all in for local and minimally processed. Citing hot dogs and bacon as health foods not so much. 

The so-called "blue zones," areas like Osaka and Sardinia where people tend to have significantly longer "healthspans" (i.e. remain functional well into old age) have lots of dietary commonalities. Fruits, veggies, whole grains, lean meats, nuts, all that stuff we all know is probably good for us. But none of them feature a ton of red meat, and certainly no processed stuff.

They also generally feature folks with good body composition (i.e. non-obese), and obesity is much less healthy overall than just about any dietary component. So if paleo or keto helps you lose weight and keep it off, that's great and it probably makes sense. But it may be a less-unhealthy option rather than a really healthy on.


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## andy f (Jan 13, 2004)

HerrKaLeun said:


> Thanks for the information. Like with all studies, probably something to it.
> But the problem with many food studies is they are self-reported (do you know off-hand if you ate 76g meat the last 5 years?) and also only look at one cancer. What about the other 1000 civilization diseases? The study also seemed to assume processed meat (i assume stable grocery meat, lunch meat etc.). I bet fresh organic grass fed meat will be better than Oskar Mayer hot dogs.
> 
> There also is a difference to people that eat cheap carbs and meat, or people that eat healthy food with meat.
> ...


The little old lady next door bakes brioche and sourdough. What am I supposed to do?


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

I’ve never forced my body into a ketogenic status from a carb restricted diet, but I do understand that it works for some. I’m also only 160# and have been at that weight most of my life. Strava shows I rode 2027miles in 2019 and I always get some functional strength training done in between rides. I’m very conscious of my diet, avoid fats,sugars,most processed foods and alcohol. As much as possible I drink tons of water, eats as many veggies as possible, I eat grilled fish and eggs too. I eat brown rice, and potatoes as carbs but never eat much. 
I understand ketogenic diets work and why people are motivated to remain on them. I would just be concerned about the long term effects on my body, but to each his own.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

DrewBird said:


> I'm all in for local and minimally processed. Citing hot dogs and bacon as health foods not so much.
> 
> The so-called "blue zones," areas like Osaka and Sardinia where people tend to have significantly longer "healthspans" (i.e. remain functional well into old age) have lots of dietary commonalities. Fruits, veggies, whole grains, lean meats, nuts, all that stuff we all know is probably good for us. But none of them feature a ton of red meat, and certainly no processed stuff.
> 
> They also generally feature folks with good body composition (i.e. non-obese), and obesity is much less healthy overall than just about any dietary component. So if paleo or keto helps you lose weight and keep it off, that's great and it probably makes sense. But it may be a less-unhealthy option rather than a really healthy on.


You know what else the "blue zones" have in common? Poor record keeping and fraud. The claims of their diet leading to long life are totally bogus.

https://www.livescience.com/oldest-people-may-not-be-so-old.html

And let's not overlook the study that showed the people of Okinawa eating a mostly plant based diet and living longer has been proven false too. That study was done in 1949, right after we decimated their population, and the animals they ate on a regular basis. Once recovered from war, they resumed a diet high in meat, and low in carb heavy processed food.

.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

HerrKaLeun said:


> There also is a difference to people that eat cheap carbs and meat, or people that eat healthy food with meat.


This.

Virtually all studies that link meat consumption with health problems ignore what else people are eating. 2oz of meat, plus a bunch of bread, cereal, pasta, ice cream, donuts, crackers, various things fried in processed oils......but yeah, let's blame the meat.

To date, there have been no studies of people who eat a meat heavy diet without all the standard American diet (SAD) garbage, but that's about to change.

.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

DirtnDogs said:


> I think we've arrived at a curious place where this diet of healthy, natural, whole foods that humans have eaten for thousands of years (we've been eating meat for over 2 million years) is considered the fad.


I am neither keto (a 15# Costco bag of Yukon Golds rarely lasts me more than two weeks) nor vegetarian/vegan (normally eat some meat at almost every meal), but I follow Michael Greger's content a lot because he post some interesting stuff and we actually agree on more than we disagree (namely, that whole foods=healthy). One of his big things is that nutrients are always better gotten from foods than supplements...except for critically important animal-only nutrients like B12 and DHA, which you should get from supplements. What?

Obviously, the SAD is quite unhealthy. If meat was so unhealthy, a meatless SAD diet should result in less obesity and chronic disease, but it doesn't. There was a huge study published in the BMJ last year (https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l4897.full.pdf) where over 48,000 participants were tracked for almost 20 years. What did they find?

_"We saw no significant differences between diet groups [meat eaters and vegetarians] for the risk of acute myocardial infarction or ischaemic stroke."_

Nor was this a new finding. You can watch Greger himself explain the same phenomenon back in 2003: 




But his conclusion is that you have to eat a whole-food vegan diet to see the benefits. It's a 1-hour clinic in the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Meat/no meat is a false dichotomy. Eat whole foods, done. Eat vegetarian/vegan if you'd like, but if you do please supplement with B12 because not doing so can literally kill you (even Greger says this, as well as recommending supplemental DHA).



andy f said:


> Now i'm going to contradict myself regarding processed foods: I started using Tailwind and/or EFS on my rides instead of food last year. I previously used plain water and trail mix or some other mix of nuts and dates or figs on my rides. My first ride with Tailwind, I took 45 minutes off of what was previously a 3.5 hour ride so I've stuck with it.


The rules are different for actively fueling endurance sports, that's when you *want* processed foods that digest rapidly. That said, have you ever read the ingredients of Tailwind? It's little more than dextrose powder, salt, flavorings, and pixie dust quantities of K/Mg/Ca. You can easily mix up your own for pennies on the dollar (though if you'd rather pay the premium for the convenience, by all means, it's your money).


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## andy f (Jan 13, 2004)

RMCDan said:


> The rules are different for actively fueling endurance sports, that's when you *want* processed foods that digest rapidly. That said, have you ever read the ingredients of Tailwind? It's little more than dextrose powder, salt, flavorings, and pixie dust quantities of K/Mg/Ca. You can easily mix up your own for pennies on the dollar (though if you'd rather pay the premium for the convenience, by all means, it's your money).


I'm aware but not motivated to bother putting the ingredients together myself. You'd think that a guy who makes his own wine from fresh grapes would be all over making his own energy drink, but no. Doesn't sound interesting to me. Wine making has a bunch of chemistry tasks and tools/toys to play with.


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## DirtnDogs (Dec 11, 2014)

DrewBird said:


> Fruits, veggies, whole grains, lean meats, nuts, all that stuff we all know is probably good for us.
> ...
> 
> So if paleo or keto helps you lose weight and keep it off, that's great and it probably makes sense. But it may be a less-unhealthy option rather than a really healthy on.


No, that's exactly my point, the foods you listed are the fad diet. Those foods are the less-unhealthy option. A bad combination of scientists with egos doing bad science and influence from the processed food industry has led us to reject the most nutrient dense, species appropriate food we have available to us. And all I can say about it is that I wish I'd worked that out for myself way sooner. I love science, good science, bring it on. But in the case of nutrition and public health, great grandma knew a lot better than the corporate shills in the white coats.

We evolved and thrived on animal meat and especially animal fat. That is the normal diet, agriculture is the fad. And sadly it's what we're stuck with so we have to make the best of it.


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## KingOfOrd (Feb 19, 2005)

DirtnDogs said:


> We evolved and thrived on animal meat and especially animal fat. That is the normal diet, *agriculture is the fad*. And sadly it's what we're stuck with so we have to make the best of it.


:eekster::eekster::madman:


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

We can do a survey of this blog. What are your diet habits and past history of body weights? What’s your current body fat composition percentage now? Do you have hypertension, diabetes, osteoarthritis, high cholesterol or obesity? But that would be to invasive and inappropriate. 
We can agree to disagree on Specific diet choices and the values it provides, but we can easily see that obesity causing chronic health conditions is real. Body fat percentage is an easy way to reference if your body is healthy.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Train Wreck said:


> :eekster::eekster::madman:


Jared Diamond has called the invention of agriculture "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race": https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race

and did so in 1999, long before the paleo diet became trendy. If you think you're smarter than Jared Diamond and have better credentials in anthropology, history and physiology, by all means, let's hear it. That human beings became markedly less healthy immediately following the adoption of agriculture, and did so independently at many different places and times across the globe, is settled fact in anthropology and not up for debate.


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## squeakymcgillicuddy (Jan 28, 2016)

I don't think we should assume the diets of people who rarely lived past 35 is the best guideline for being healthy in your 60s and 70s.


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## syl3 (Apr 23, 2008)

squeakymcgillicuddy said:


> I don't think we should assume the diets of people who rarely lived past 35 is the best guideline for being healthy in your 60s and 70s.


There was a lot of infant and toddler deaths included in that statistic. The truth is that most people who lived past the age of 7 had a very much normal lifespan.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

squeakymcgillicuddy said:


> I don't think we should assume the diets of people who rarely lived past 35 is the best guideline for being healthy in your 60s and 70s.


It's true that _life expectancy at birth_ for hunter-gatherers was low. However, using life expectancy at birth as a proxy for their overall health and chronic disease burden constitutes felony abuse of statistics.

From the link I posted, which you clearly didn't bother to read:

_One straight forward example of what paleopathologists have learned from skeletons concerns historical changes in height. Skeletons from Greece and Turkey show that the average height of hunger-gatherers toward the end of the ice ages was a generous 5' 9'' for men, 5' 5'' for women. With the adoption of agriculture, height crashed, and by 3000 B. C. had reached a low of only 5' 3'' for men, 5' for women. By classical times heights were very slowly on the rise again, but modern Greeks and Turks have still not regained the average height of their distant ancestors.

Another example of paleopathology at work is the study of Indian skeletons from burial mounds in the Illinois and Ohio river valleys. At Dickson Mounds, located near the confluence of the Spoon and Illinois rivers, archaeologists have excavated some 800 skeletons that paint a picture of the health changes that occurred when a hunter-gatherer culture gave way to intensive maize farming around A. D. 1150. Studies by George Armelagos and his colleagues then at the University of Massachusetts show these early farmers paid a price for their new-found livelihood. Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a theefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine, probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at birth in the pre-agricultural community was about twenty-six years," says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."_


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## ViperDom (Sep 28, 2016)

Wiki has some good info on the topic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fad_diet

List of Fad Diets:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diets#Fad_diets
(includes Keto)


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## squeakymcgillicuddy (Jan 28, 2016)

RMCDan said:


> _ "Life expectancy at birth in the pre-agricultural community was about twenty-six years," says Armelagos, "but in the post-agricultural community it was nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."_


Yeah, I'm not saying we go back to pre-sanitation farming communities subsisting almost entirely on a single crop.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

squeakymcgillicuddy said:


> Yeah, I'm not saying we go back to pre-sanitation farming communities subsisting almost entirely on a single crop.


I'll accept this as a tacit admission that your original statement that HGs "rarely lived past 35" is a disingenuous and misleading use of LEAB statistics.


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## squeakymcgillicuddy (Jan 28, 2016)

The Department of the Internet will be shipping your trophy shortly.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

RMCDan said:


> Jared Diamond has called the invention of agriculture "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race": https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race
> 
> and did so in 1999, long before the paleo diet became trendy. If you think you're smarter than Jared Diamond and have better credentials in anthropology, history and physiology, by all means, let's hear it. That human beings became markedly less healthy immediately following the adoption of agriculture, and did so independently at many different places and times across the globe, is settled fact in anthropology and not up for debate.


Interesting article. Notice that he included the domestication of animals:

_"Our escape from this misery was facilitated only 10,000 years ago, when in different parts of the world people began to domesticate plants and animals. The agricultural revolution spread until today it's nearly universal and few tribes of hunter-gatherers survive."_

And the reasons this was a mistake:

_"First, hunter-gatherers enjoyed a varied diet, while early farmers obtained most of their food from one or a few starchy crops. The farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition,&#8230; Second, because of dependence on a limited number of crops, farmers ran the risk of starvation if one crop failed. Finally, the mere fact that agriculture encouraged people to clump together in crowded societies, many of which then carried on trade with other crowded societies, led to the spread of parasites and infectious disease."_

It would be interesting to know what would have happened if we had remained hunters and gatherers. How quickly would we have wiped out our food sources? Or I guess nature would have kept us in balance by wiping out many of us before we were completely able to do so. The article states that some scientist believe people turned to agriculture out of necessity:

_"The evidence suggests that the Indians at Dickson Mounds, like many other primitive peoples, took up farming not by choice but from necessity in order to feed their constantly growing numbers. "I don't think most hunger-gatherers farmed until they had to, and when they switched to farming they traded quality for quantity," says Mark Cohen of the State University of New York at Plattsburgh"_

I would be willing to bet that the author has not returned to a hunting and gathering lifestyle. But it is an interesting article.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

chazpat said:


> It would be interesting to know what would have happened if we had remained hunters and gatherers. How quickly would we have wiped out our food sources? Or I guess nature would have kept us in balance by wiping out many of us before we were completely able to do so.


I tend to avoid dwelling on counterfactuals. It's certainly true that HGs did not live in some perfectly balanced harmony with their environments, that's a myth. Some did so more than others, but it's dangerous to generalize considering the enormous level of heterogeneity that existed.



chazpat said:


> I would be willing to bet that the author has not returned to a hunting and gathering lifestyle.


He certainly hasn't, nor does he argue that we could or should. The point is to dispel the myth that the adoption of agriculture was an unconditional good that universally improved peoples' lives, which it certainly did not. HGs generally enjoyed robust health and were not scraping out meager existences that led to deaths from malnutrition and exhaustion at 30. That was the life lived by the farmers than replaced them.

I also find it fascinating that even modern HG groups like the Kalahari bushmen and Hadza, who live in quite marginal environments that no one else wanted, spend less than 20 hours per week procuring food. It's not hard to imagine that HGs who lived in richer environments before they were all appropriated by farmers needed far less time to feed themselves. I've read in other sources that most HG groups would have required 30-40 hours per week to take care of all of their survival needs (food, clothing, shelter, tools, etc.). They "worked" far less than we do and the natural human condition was to have lots of leisure time. A lot of the problems of modernity make a lot more sense in that context.

Anyway, I'll stop derailing this thread now.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I hunted down some coffee and gathered some toast & butter this morning.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> I hunted down some coffee and gathered some toast & butter this morning.


Did you enter the state of ketosis afterwards?

I just eat a healthy well-rounded diet and that seems to do the job.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

I’ve been on a low carb but “not keto” diet, I eat six small meals and time my higher carb meals to early in the day and prior to my workouts. Dinners and post training meals have a combo of lean protein and lots of veggies. 
For me this works, my waist is 32” and I’m sure my body fat percentage is lower than last fall. I’ll be testing that next week.


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## Smokee300 (Jul 8, 2014)

Ronaldmc said:


> Can I start keto diet? Im 50 yo...


I will be 55 in November and started Keto 2 months ago along with eating only between 1PM and 7PM. Also gave up booze. Riding 3-4 times a week and the weight has definitely been coming off.

I can't specifically say what is causing the weight loss but I'm pretty pleased with the results so far.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Ronaldmc said:


> Can I start keto diet? Im 50 yo...


It's never too late to start.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

pitymitty said:


> I have heard a lot about this Keto diet, and I want to try it out soon. Any tips for a newbie?


Do lots of research but don't use a site that is trying to sell you something as a source.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

pitymitty said:


> I have heard a lot about this Keto diet, and I want to try it out soon. Any tips for a newbie?


Count your macros religiously in the beginning. Write down everything you eat. Calculate the macros in everything you cook. Eventually, you'll get a feeling for how much, and what you can eat in a day, and then you won't need to track.

.


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## Smokee300 (Jul 8, 2014)

Smokee300 said:


> I will be 55 in November and started Keto 2 months ago along with eating only between 1PM and 7PM. Also gave up booze. Riding 3-4 times a week and the weight has definitely been coming off.
> 
> I can't specifically say what is causing the weight loss but I'm pretty pleased with the results so far.


I definitely plumped up at the start of Covid. As of today I'm down a little over 50lbs from the beginning of June following the same regiment(above) So far so good.


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## mtbman123 (Nov 7, 2020)

My personal opinion on ketogenic dieting is that it is hard to maintain over the long-term, but that it can be used to achieve quick body-recomposition changes if you are 100% committed to it.

My personal preference is to simply do the following over the long-term:


Eliminate sugar and dairy.
Dramatically reduce refined carbohydrates. For instance, I allow myself two rolls (with ham or beef) on a daily basis for lunch while I am at work, but that's about it as far as refined carbohydrates go.
Opt for protein + vegetables (staples being brocolli, cauliflower and carrots) for evening meals.
Opt for something like a high quality yoghurt (high protein, low carb, moderate-or-high fat) and berries for breakfast.
Do not snack in between meals (that means ditching protein bars or "meal-replacement bars", if you have these). I have found that eliminating between-meal snacks -- such as protein bars -- from my diet helped me lean-up and gain more definition.
Some solid supplement choices if you weight train regularly (for instance: high quality fish oil [not all fish oils are of the same quality], Vitamin D, whey protein and perhaps some glutamine after a weight training session [that's really the only time I use these], creatine monohydrate [5g per day is enough], ZMA [I find this beneficial for a deep sleep].)

Intermittent fasting can also be effective. This is where, for example, you may not eat between 8pm to 12 noon the following day. I know people -- who are clearly in excellent physical condition -- who swear by this. Personally, I just stick to the principles above, and that seems to work for me in regards to maintaining a reasonable amount of muscle while keeping off fat.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

mtbman123 said:


> My personal opinion on ketogenic dieting is that it is hard to maintain over the long-term, but that it can be used to achieve quick body-recomposition changes if you are 100% committed to it.
> 
> My personal preference is to simply do the following over the long-term:
> 
> ...


Over the long term, I think people just find what works for them, but following the keto diet at first is a good starting point.

I was religious about tracking macros at first, which was good for learning what had tons of sugar, and what didn't, then I went carnivore for a while - which was just too restrictive and kind of a pain in the ass, so now a couple of years later, I just kind of eat eggs, meat, cheese, salad and vegetables with the occasional cheat meal like pizza or fried chicken thrown in once or twice a week. I also started adding seasonal fruits this summer, and that worked out fine.

My weight has stabilized, but I'll do some intermittent fasting occasionally, more in the warmer months when I can get out the door first thing in the morning for a fasted state ride, but fasts also just kind of happen as a matter of normal life when something comes up and I have to skip a meal. Being able to skip meals effortlessly is like a super power for me. I used to go into full on freak out if I didn't have something to eat every couple of hours. I see it in other people now and recognize it for what it is. Getting off the sugar/crash roller coaster has been life changing.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

mtbman123 said:


> My personal preference is to simply do the following over the long-term:
> 
> * Eliminate sugar and dairy.
> ...
> * Opt for something like yoghurt and berries for breakfast.


Last I checked yogurt was dairy. Full-fat fermented and/or aged dairy is generally fine in moderation if you're lactose-tolerant and don't have some kind of autoimmune disease that responds favorably to total elimination of dairy. Bonus points for grass-fed and/or goat/sheep's milk products.

That said, that's a pretty good list. The big thing missing is refined seed oils--soy, sunflower, cottonseed, etc. basically anything except cold-pressed fruit oils (olive, avocado, coconut). Even the fruit oils should be used in moderation. Fats should come from whole-food sources.

The obesigenic trifecta is:

1. All fructose not from whole fruit (primarily sucrose, HFCS, and fruit juice)
2. Overuse of oils in general, and refined seed oils especially
3. Highly refined starches--basically anything made with flour of any kind. Potatoes and other tubers are fine, white rice is on the bubble.

If you're strict about #1 and #2 and moderately to highly active you can play it a lot looser with #3. Keep liquid calories as low as possible.


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## david.p (Apr 11, 2011)

_CJ said:


> Count your macros religiously in the beginning. Write down everything you eat. Calculate the macros in everything you cook. Eventually, you'll get a feeling for how much, and what you can eat in a day, and then you won't need to track.


+1 to this; I use an app called Cronometer for tracking.

I've been keto for coming up on 2 years. I never needed to lose weight but was curious about other benefits. For a while I had to track calories to avoid losing too much weight, but just like the macros, you get a feel for what and how much. I stay on it because I feel better (no heartburn / acid reflux, increased mental acuity, better sleep) and don't really miss any of the carby foods (except warm, fresh bread). I definitely eat more vegetables than I used to.

It helps if you cook and if you live with someone else who is committed to it. There are so many keto recipes out there and the foods / meals are so rich and flavorful (fat is flavor!). Also, for pretty much any craving there's a keto friendly way to scratch that itch.


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## mtbman123 (Nov 7, 2020)

mtbman123 said:


> * Eliminate sugar and dairy.
> ...
> * Opt for something like yoghurt and berries for breakfast.





RMCDan said:


> *Last I checked yogurt was dairy*. Full-fat fermented and/or aged dairy is generally fine in moderation if you're lactose-tolerant and don't have some kind of autoimmune disease that responds favorably to total elimination of dairy. Bonus points for grass-fed and/or goat/sheep's milk products.


Woops. Good point there.

I forgot to consider that.

Generally speaking, in my own situation, I cut out all dairy except a high quality yoghurt (high protein, low carbohydrate, high-or-moderate fat) with berries in the morning, and have found this to be beneficial.

My preferred yoghurt brands in the UK are options called (1) Fage, or (2), Skyrr, which, on my last comparison of labels for 1L yoghurts, had the best profiles of protein, carbs and fat that I could find.

Lastly, cutting out milk, especially, has been beneficial for me in regards to reducing or eliminating bad or inflammed skin.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

I've done intermittent fasting and lost over 30 pounds down to single digit body fat percentage in my 40s, and I've also done a 5-day fast this fall, losing 12 pounds. 

I think diets are a way of talking around the obstacle of reducing caloric intake. So "keto" becomes the fad, rather than fasting. 

Fasting is very good for you, turns out that the old guys of ancient religious texts were on to something. Everyone should try fasting for at least 2 days and see what you experience. If you do so, I recommend plenty of water and electrolyte tablets, this will lessen the discomfort. 

Your body will do a complete "detox," another fad buzzword, but this time for real, clearing you of toxins stored in the liver, and re-generating cells that would otherwise stay in a degenerate state. The longer you fast, the more benefit of this you'll get.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

I have never tried fasting but do agree that a 2 day fast will obviously alter and perhaps reset your metabolism. As for detoxing diets and cleansing diets, perhaps they have some effect but let’s be real, years of damage from a poor diet and lack of cardiovascular exercises cannot be reversed, especially with a fast or specific diet. It just doesn’t work that way. If you have had a poor diet and lacked exercise for 10 years. It’s going to be 10 years of consistent clean diet and exercise to return your Health. Sure you can loose the weight and feel a lot better and that counts, but internally your body will retain irreversible damage that you will just have to live with and hopefully won’t lead to something worse.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

New year, new calendar. For most of my adult life, I've been tracking my weight on my wall calendar, and I always make a point of hitting the scales Jan 1st. This year's weight is exactly the same as last year's Jan 1st weight, and I'll take that as a win with all that happened in 2020. I have calendars going back to 2013 handy, so I scanned through and it looks like I'm down 26 pounds from 2013. It's been a pretty slow but steady progression that started with alternate day fasting but no keto, and then incorporating keto in the last three years. The low-carb lifestyle is without question sustainable, and at an age when I'm watching most of my friends on Facebook swell up like parade baloons, I'm happy to have gotten a handle on my health.


.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

_CJ said:


> at an age when I'm watching most of my friends on Facebook swell up like parade baloons


It is so amazing and saddening to watch people just say, "I guess it's time to buy bigger pants."


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## Simon789 (Jun 29, 2019)

_CJ said:


> Eventually pasta and bread will slow you down weather you plan to or not. It's called insulin resistance, or type II diabetes.


It's true. I have type II diabetes. Though I use medication (I'm happy that I can order rybelsus online together with insulin), I should control my weight. So, nutrition plays a great role for me. White bread and pasta are high carb, processed foods. I eat them, but I keep an eye on my portions.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Type II diabetes is created by your particular body type refusing to add more fat. It does not happen to cyclists who are fit and eat a lot of carbs.

Some people, like the 450 pound folks who have to be cut out of their bedroom, have bodies that continue to add fat no matter how much they eat. On the other hand, people who get Type II diabetes have metabolisms that say "that's enough. "Instead of getting fatter beyond limits, extra carbs that are ingested start getting dumped into their bloodstream, increasing blood sugar.

Therefore it's not a fair statement to say pasta and bread (carbs) are bad for your cycling performance. In fact, they're the only thing for it. But gaining weight until you can't gain anymore is worse for you than just going slow on a bike, I think we all know that.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

burning carbs vs. burning fat, maybe there's a place for both-


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

^ He pretty much says the same thing as Dylan Johnson. Carbs are where it's at for cycling performance, with the exception of ultra-endurance. Of course you need fats and protein off the bike, that'd be silly to be 100% carbohydrates. But to quote the great Durianrider "Caab the Fack up mate"


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## Alparac42 (Feb 4, 2021)

In my opinion i don't think you can call it a fad, since it's based on the science of how we used to live. It's equal to saying if walking is a fad, and sitting down at a desk is where it's at. It's simply how we evolved.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

chomxxo said:


> ^ He pretty much says the same thing as Dylan Johnson. Carbs are where it's at for cycling performance, with the exception of ultra-endurance. Of course you need fats and protein off the bike, that'd be silly to be 100% carbohydrates. But to quote the great Durianrider "Caab the Fack up mate"


There's no question that carbs can enhance athletic performance in certain circumstances, but it doesn't come without a cost. Aside from insulin resistance, there's inflammation. And when that inflammation damages your arteries, here comes the cholesterol and calcium to fix it, then boom, heart attack, stroke, etc. Short of competing at an elite level to support a family, I really just don't see the point. And if you don't care about your health, why stop at sugar? Why not meth, or cocaine?


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

_CJ said:


> There's no question that carbs can enhance athletic performance in certain circumstances, but it doesn't come without a cost. Aside from insulin resistance, there's inflammation. And when that inflammation damages your arteries, here comes the cholesterol and calcium to fix it, then boom, heart attack, stroke, etc. Short of competing at an elite level to support a family, I really just don't see the point. And if you don't care about your health, why stop at sugar? Why not meth, or cocaine?


It's incorrect to say that "carbs" cause inflammation and insulin resistance. Many whole-food sources of carbs like sweet potatoes and fruit are demonstrably anti-inflammatory and do not contribute to IR. The bottom line is that almost all unprocessed whole foods are healthy.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

_CJ said:


> There's no question that carbs can enhance athletic performance in certain circumstances, but it doesn't come without a cost. Aside from insulin resistance, there's inflammation. And when that inflammation damages your arteries, here comes the cholesterol and calcium to fix it, then boom, heart attack, stroke, etc. Short of competing at an elite level to support a family, I really just don't see the point. And if you don't care about your health, why stop at sugar? Why not meth, or cocaine?


What? Carbohydrates are the _only_ thing that can enhance athletic performance. They really aren't an option for humans, mammals, reptiles even (do insects need them too? I have no idea), so let's try to reel this back in.

What you're referring to is a coach potato stuffing potato chips down towards him self-inflicting Type 2 diabetes (which as I described in a previous post, is directly caused by the body reaching an individual metabolism-imposed fat storage limit).

The Keto diet is unrealistic and unhealthy. Fasting is healthy, however.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

RMCDan said:


> It's incorrect to say that "carbs" cause inflammation and insulin resistance. Many whole-food sources of carbs like sweet potatoes and fruit are demonstrably anti-inflammatory and do not contribute to IR. The bottom line is that almost all unprocessed whole foods are healthy.


That's fair. Carbs from green veg are generally good for you. Fruits can be good and bad. Sweet potato depends on it's preparation. Glycemic load charts (not glycemic index) are a good reference.

.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

chomxxo said:


> What? Carbohydrates are the _only_ thing that can enhance athletic performance. They really aren't an option for humans, mammals, reptiles even (do insects need them too? I have no idea), so let's try to reel this back in.
> 
> What you're referring to is a coach potato stuffing potato chips down towards him self-inflicting Type 2 diabetes (which as I described in a previous post, is directly caused by the body reaching an individual metabolism-imposed fat storage limit).
> 
> The Keto diet is unrealistic and unhealthy. Fasting is healthy, however.


Wrong.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Not gonna waste my time with stuff like this. /ignore








_CJ said:


> Wrong.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I thought this was pretty relevant to this thread:









Keto diet may damage bone health in endurance athletes, study shows - Canadian Cycling Magazine


With a low impact sport like cycling, you may already be at risk of bone density issues




cyclingmagazine.ca


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

LMN said:


> I thought this was pretty relevant to this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Need more info, and it's not easily found in that article. What, exactly, did they feed the keto group? I've seen too many of these "studies" where they feed the keto group a bunch of garbage. Also, they didn't actually measure bone density, they looked at their blood for "markers of bone breakdown and regeneration ", which sounds kind of ambiguous. Did they actually lose bone mass, or gain? Were fragile porous bone cells replaced with new healthy ones? Possibly a result of increased autophagy that normally comes with a HFLC diet? Or maybe it was the calcium being flushed out of their arteries?

Too many unanswered questions.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

_CJ said:


> Need more info, and it's not easily found in that article. What, exactly, did they feed the keto group? I've seen too many of these "studies" where they feed the keto group a bunch of garbage. Also, they didn't actually measure bone density, they looked at their blood for "markers of bone breakdown and regeneration ", which sounds kind of ambiguous. Did they actually lose bone mass, or gain? Were fragile porous bone cells replaced with new healthy ones? Possibly a result of increased autophagy that normally comes with a HFLC diet? Or maybe it was the calcium being flushed out of their arteries?
> 
> Too many unanswered questions.


Generally good studies on nutrition and exercise are hard to do. The effects are long term and there are many other factors that are hard to control. This article, like many things in the field, speaks of possible and theoretical problems. I am pretty sure you will never find a good study to prove or disprove the points in it.

However if I were following a Keto diet this is something I would look into. You don't want to mess around with bone density.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

LMN said:


> Generally good studies on nutrition and exercise are hard to do. The effects are long term and there are many other factors that are hard to control. This article, like many things in the field, speaks of possible and theoretical problems. I am pretty sure you will never find a good study to prove or disprove the points in it.
> 
> However if I were following a Keto diet this is something I would look into. You don't want to mess around with bone density.


If there was actual bone loss, my guess is that the "keto diet" they fed them was deficient in nutrients that support bone density. The video below isn't directly related to exercise, but it does talk about nutrients that support bone health, as does the article in the link.






Vitamin K2 — A Little-Known Nutrient Can Make a Big Difference in Heart and Bone Health


Today's Dietitian magazine, the leading news source for dietitians and nutritionists, covering topics such as diabetes management, long-term care, new products and technologies, career strategies, nutrition research updates, supplements, culinary arts, food allergies, fitness, sports medicine...



www.todaysdietitian.com


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

For athletic performance carbs are more beneficial. An athlete can live the keto lifestyle and train keto and use carbs in competition. You get the best of both worlds in health and performance. And since you're fat adapted if you run out of carbs you don't bonk.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

Johnson covers the research that shows that the best recovery is made by using a mix of carbs and protein (not just protein as the conventional wisdom posits). Carbs are a basic part of animal nutrition, no getting around it.

Keto diet and fasted training are perversions of age-old wisdom: fasting is good for you. This is proven by science. Fad diets or training bro science aren't.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Cerberus75 said:


> For athletic performance carbs are more beneficial. An athlete can live the keto lifestyle and train keto and use carbs in competition. You get the best of both worlds in health and performance. And since you're fat adapted if you run out of carbs you don't bonk.


I don't think there's any question that high sugar carbs are more or less lightweight doping, and you can ride faster with them, but they sure as hell aren't "healthy". Fast and healthy are two different things.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Cerberus75 said:


> For athletic performance carbs are more beneficial. An athlete can live the keto lifestyle and train keto and use carbs in competition. You get the best of both worlds in health and performance. And since you're fat adapted if you run out of carbs you don't bonk.


"Best of both world" includes documented calcium leaching and issues with long term bone density I guess.

And I think you mean "use carbs in training" not in "competition."

Intensity higher zone Training without carbs on a bicycle will significantly lower progress and likely move you backward.

Any pro cyclist you want to cite or post a link to who is "doing" this is likely TROLLING. The GC and Continental tour team, or they quickly realized its a no go(aka Emily Batty).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Alex Huchison in his book Endure has a great chapter on high fat diets and their applications in endurance sports. If you are really interested is worth reading. The whole book is great, one of the best analysis of the myths of endurance training out there IMHO.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

_CJ said:


> I don't think there's any question that high sugar carbs are more or less lightweight doping, and you can ride faster with them, but they sure as hell aren't "healthy". Fast and healthy are two different things.


I don't compete. So most of my riding is in keto. All of my blood tests and physicals prove this is the best diet for me. Occasionally (like on a mtb vacation I will have 1/2 sweet potato in the evening and the other half in the morning, following a long hard ride If I'm going to do a long hard ride again the next day...but my fats still remain high and since I'm so fat adapted I never bonk out.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

chomxxo said:


> Johnson covers the research that shows that the best recovery is made by using a mix of carbs and protein (not just protein as the conventional wisdom posits). Carbs are a basic part of animal nutrition, no getting around it.
> 
> Keto diet and fasted training are perversions of age-old wisdom: fasting is good for you. This is proven by science. Fad diets or training bro science aren't.


It's not carbs it's insulin and protein for best repair. Certain amino acid profiles illicit an insulin response. Beef and Whey are examples. You can also take amino acids pre meal.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

FJSnoozer said:


> "Best of both world" includes documented calcium leaching and issues with long term bone density I guess.
> 
> And I think you mean "use carbs in training" not in "competition."
> 
> ...


No I meant what I said training in keto can get you to being able to push to 80% fat adapted. And you have to get better at 80% than others at 90% carbs are nessasary for the other 20% and can be used as a PED and not a lifestyle.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Once competition enters the picture health tends to leave. With drug use in almost every sport just to level the playing field. Carbs would be no different. The argument for using carbs to win is like arguing Anabolics or EPO to win. Just because it's not on a banned list doesn't mean it's the healthiest.


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## chomxxo (Oct 15, 2008)

It's pretty weird to compare carbohydrates to drugs. There's been a long modern history of stretching one's imagination to fit the currently popular diet.

As a non-racer I'd question whether you were pushing your body while on a keto diet, and whether your state of recovery really matters. If you were a racer looking at your results, I'd suggest you wouldn't be doing it.

Nevertheless, if you find benefits in the keto diet then I highly recommend investigating fasting. You can't really do it while training hard, but Zone 2 rides of 2 hours or less aren't bad. Please understand this isn't "fasted training."

I'm saying, take a 2-5 day water fast (electrolyte tablets are ok). You will get benefits to your body that cannot be gained any other way.


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## FJSnoozer (Mar 3, 2015)

Cerberus75 said:


> No I meant what I said training in keto can get you to being able to push to 80% fat adapted. And you have to get better at 80% than others at 90% carbs are nessasary for the other 20% and can be used as a PED and not a lifestyle.


Your math is pulled out of thin air and bro science.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Travolta (Oct 26, 2016)

_CJ said:


> humans have sustained themselves for millions of years


old quote, ik. pardon me.

Keto is a fad. as is any diet.
that does not mean it can't work.

the notion that humans sustained themselves like this for millennia is correct. on the flipside, humans sustained themselves on a huge variety of different diets throughout history.
people in the woods? meat, mushrooms and w/e.
people in areas with good farmlang? vegetables.
and so on.

did Keto for a while and the good thing about it is that its easy to follow and stick to. thats a huge plus. 
now that I went back to a "regular" diet with a larger amount of vegetable then before (still high fat. I butter up anything, basically. or use 200ml of cream per person etc.) and I am not feeling differently nor did I gain weight nor anything.

now back to the quote.
*I now believe that as long as you stick to what humans have adapted to you can't really go wrong.*
thats how I now cook and how me and my family eat.

what a lengthy non-answer.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

AsItIs said:


> hello everyone!
> As for me I've tried sticking a keto diet and felt goon in the first 3 weeks and then I felt a severe pain in stomach...
> Be careful while eating dishes of keto diet


Could be gallstones, a gallbladder issue, or some other issue related to bile production that wasn't noticed until you started eating high fat foods, which require a healthy bile system to digest. Sugar, and carb heavy foods on the other hand do not high levels of bile production, and can often contribute to problems with bile production, gallstones, etc. so if you've been high carb / low fat for a long time, that may be the source of your issue. If you want to try keto again, add some purified bile salts to your regimen, and see if that helps.

.


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## Zomby Woof (MCM700) (May 23, 2004)

Aren't all diets some kind of a fad?


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

You can lose weight on any diet, including the bread diet. Its a matter of keeping it off, I kept off 110lbs for a year, its pretty easy so long as your smart about it but it can be hard with mates buying garbage food tempting you so I stay out of the kitchen as much as possible. I half assed the keto diet, many cheat days but the high fat made me feel full for longer and thats the name of the game for me, plus not eating sugar, bread, flour, rice, pasta, cola, fast food, packaged food really helped. To much garbage in boxed food, even more garbage in fast food.


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## Thustlewhumber (Nov 25, 2011)

Funny that eating anything other than processed foods or high sugar stuff is considered a diet now. 

I did full blown keto 2 years ago, changed my life. I switched to more of a paleo diet since then, but once you realize the detrimental effects that processed foods have on your body it changes everything.


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Thustlewhumber said:


> Funny that eating anything other than processed foods or high sugar stuff is considered a diet now.
> 
> I did full blown keto 2 years ago, changed my life. I switched to more of a paleo diet since then, but once you realize the detrimental effects that processed foods have on your body it changes everything.


Truth. The number of unnecessary additives/preservatives plus sugar, salt, etc. in most food products is astounding. Reading labels can be quite informative.

My wife has GURD and is lactose intolerant so we generally tend to eat a lot cleaner and dine out far less often than most. We do Whole 30 iterations 1-2x each year (no booze, dairy, legumes, etc. in addition to more paleo-like sustenance in general). 

Doesn't do much for me but gives her GI tract what boils down to a digestive tract vacation. I've started leaving dairy in (1% milk for coffee/cappuccino's more than anything else) because all of the non-dairy milk products tend to irritate my innards over time and all of them generally end up tasting like crap by the end of 30+ days.


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## hardmtnbiker (Feb 22, 2005)

The bottom line is the outcome. Eat clean, cut out the crap. Cut out the alcohol and drink plenty of water. I also think finding lean protein that has been raised or sourced thoughtfully like free range chicken breast, wild fish or farmed properly. Dairy from certified organic farms. 
See your doctors, get your labs and preventive diagnostic screening done. Your waist should not be over 32 to 34 inches unless you’re 6’5” then 36 waist. Your BMI should be no more 25 unless your very muscula then check your body fat percentage and that should be less than 18percent. You should be able to see your abs and muscular definition when you flex and your skin should look well hydrated. 
Keep fit and Ride4life Fit4life


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