# More 07 XTR News...



## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*Shimano to Offer First View Of '07 XTR During Sea Otter*

MARCH 28, 2006 -- 

IRVINE, CA (BRAIN)-If you want to be the first to see Shimano's upcoming M970 XTR group, check out Adam Craig, Walker Ferguson, Marie Helene Premont, Bart Brentjens and Roel Paulissen's bikes at Sea Otter. Shimano's racers will be testing the new parts in competition, including XTR wheels, pedals, rear derailleur and shifter prototypes.

"Putting XTR to the test in professional competition, we are at once publicly displaying our engineers' hard work on the new group and furthering the research and development process," said David Lawrence, Shimano's marketing manager.

While the group is still in development, Shimano plans to release it to OEMs in August, meaning '07 XTR could turn up on showroom floors as early as September. Product for aftermarket sales should be available at about the same time.

The most impressive feature of the upcoming group is its universality. Shifting can be with Dual-Control or Rapid Fire Plus pod shifter, rotors are available in Centerloc or 6-bolt universal mounting, rear derailleurs come with rapid-rise or traditional function, *the XTR crankset adopts current XT-style chainring set-up*  and the new XTR pedals are cross compatible with the rest of Shimano's off-road pedal line. Offering six-bolt disc rotors means a rider can use Shimano's discs on any bike with any wheelset they choose.

"We redesigned the Rapid Fire index finger lever so that it is accessible to your thumbs, allowing you to release cable with either finger," Lawrence said about the SL-M970 RapidFire Plus Shift Lever. And it is possible to pull or release enough cable with one lever push to jump three cogs if wanted.

The tubeless ready M970 wheelset shaves 187 grams from the previous M960 wheelset through the use of a titanium freehub body, 36-notch engagement system, Scandium rim and 7075 alloy axles. And the M970 pedals are not only the first high-end off-road offering from Shimano in years, it is the first XTR level pedal ever offered. Still using standard cleats, the completely new pedal body is 25 grams lighter then Shimano's other pedals.</paragraph_body> </paragraph_body>


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## FastMovingTarget (Mar 30, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> *Shimano to Offer First View Of '07 XTR During Sea Otter*
> 
> MARCH 28, 2006 --
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this.

XTR cranks will use standard bolt pattern. That's gonna make a lot of people very happy. If those pedals will be 25 grams lighter per pedal that is significant. I bet they will not be cheap, though. SRAM needs to buy crank brothers to make this lovely competition that much more interesting. Now I wonder if they can shave 50 grams from the cranks!


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

DIRT BOY said:


> the completely new pedal body is 25 grams lighter then Shimano's other pedals.


Woohoo! That will make them 300g a pair then. Don't suppose they have a ti axle too in order to be remotely competitive weightwise?


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## Surfas (Sep 13, 2005)

*Thanks DIRT BOY*

Thanks DIRT BOY for the XTR news, but do you know anything about FOX forks for 2007?


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## Jersey (Sep 14, 2005)

wait, so the 07 xtr cranks will bear zero resemblance to the 06s? i wasnt aware that it was the bolt pattern that was troubling people but rather the BB connection....??

im so confused


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## psinsyd (Jul 9, 2004)

I think the bolt pattern is referring to Shimano finally adopting the six-bolt disc rotor rather than the centerlock rotor setup.


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## blehargh (Feb 13, 2004)

*Proprietary*



Jersey said:


> wait, so the 07 xtr cranks will bear zero resemblance to the 06s? i wasnt aware that it was the bolt pattern that was troubling people but rather the BB connection....??
> 
> im so confused


The XTR chainrings are proprietary and if you want replacements you must buy them from Shimano. Nobody else makes XTR chainrings. And they are freakin' expensive. i think it's about $100 for the big ring alone. maybe likr $50 for the middle ring.

GL,
-don


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## Hosehead (May 4, 2005)

psinsyd said:


> I think the bolt pattern is referring to Shimano finally adopting the six-bolt disc rotor rather than the centerlock rotor setup.


Shimano sells six bolt disks right now, they never abandoned them.


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## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

blehargh said:


> The XTR chainrings are proprietary and if you want replacements you must buy them from Shimano. Nobody else makes XTR chainrings. And they are freakin' expensive. i think it's about $100 for the big ring alone. maybe likr $50 for the middle ring.
> 
> GL,
> -don


Middleburn and TA Specialties both make aftermarket XTR 960 rings, as does Brett Boone (in Titanium) if you can set it up with him. I have a set from Moonhead Machine, although I suspect they are not producing them any more (their site is down). Shimano has their ramped and pinned design patented, but I doubt they can patent a BCD since it doesn't seem relevant to specific functionality.


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

XTR cranks will use the 104/64 BCD pattern on the cranks!


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*Shimano ALWAYS had 6-Bolt rotors...*

Shimano always kept the 6-Bolt pattern when they introduced Center-Lock.
many thought CL was dead for 2007, but it will live on giving consumers more choices. The CL IMO is lighter and a better system.

Only if Shimnao would let others adopt the technology without fees, you might be suprised on how many companies might jump on.

Imagine CK hubs with thier Ti lock rings .


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

According to this VeloNews article, the whole 07 XTR group will be a pound lighter than the 06 XTR! Now let's wait for an actual production version...

Geoff Kabush using the new shifters at the Commonwealth games.

And yes, dopers do suck!


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

Dan Gerous said:


> According to this VeloNews article, the whole 07 XTR group will be a pound lighter than the 06 XTR! Now let's wait for an actual production version...
> 
> Geoff Kabush using the new shifters at the Commonwealth games.
> 
> And yes, dopers do suck!


Again someone trusts blindly to rumor's press. Don't you see in this pic old XTR shifters without gear display? Or just close your eyes and trust anything you read?


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

scapin said:


> Again someone trust blindly to rumor's press. Don't you see in this pic old XTR shifters without gear display? Or just close your eyes and trust anything you read?


Geeee, relax scapin! I was more citing VeloNews than anything else for contributing to bring new information on the subject. I thought the article has some interesting info to add here. I just posted the picture from the race in question, whether it's old school XTR or the new one, I leave to everyone's judgment...

And how would you know what the new shifters will look like? The 07 XT shifters (using the same tech as the 07 XTR) don't look too different to the old Rapid Fire XT shifters...


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## chrism (Jan 27, 2004)

Dan Gerous said:


> And how would you know what the new shifters will look like? The 07 XT shifters (using the same tech as the 07 XTR) don't look too different to the old Rapid Fire XT shifters...


...but sufficiently different that they don't look like those in that picture, which in fact do look like the old shifters. I presume the new XTR will look a lot more like new XT than old XTR...


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> Why would Shimano (who must be sponsoring him since he has used SRAM the last two years) send him out in competition with three year old product?


Maybe because that *seven* year old product (as you'd know if you were capable of producing more signal than noise) is still the current product, as Shimano haven't updated their XTR shifter pods since 1999. What else could they send him out with if they're trying to avoid showing it too early? It's widely reported that it won't be seen in public until Sea Otter - there may be people riding prototypes already, but not in events as high profile as the Commonwealth Games.

Are you seriously telling me that this:










looks more like this:










than this:


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## XC_Miles (Jan 26, 2004)

Look @ the shifter on the left side of the bar. Look how long that trigger arm is. Find me an XTR that has a trigger arm that long from the 950 series. Its not the old shifter, but so what if it were?


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

XC_Miles said:


> Look @ the shifter on the left side of the bar. Look how long that trigger arm is. Find me an XTR that has a trigger arm that long from the 950 series. Its not the old shifter, but so what if it were?


You're all getting confused by the fact that he is running his brake levers inside his shifters rather than outside as is normal. Imagine that shift lever going past a brake lever clamp, and you'll find it is in exactly the same position as you'd normally expect for a shift lever.


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> All that matters is what the internals house, and you have no idea about that (and neither do I). Shimano race tests it's product development so I doubt he is using stock 952 shifters. They may not show the updated graphics until Sea Otter, but do you think that Shimano corporate says that it's April '06 and we are at Sea Otter so the '07 stuff is ready? Get a clue about product development.
> BTW, Shimano stopped producing the 950 series XTR product in 2003 (they continued production for a period after dual control was released). 2006-2003=3 years, math obviously isn't your strong suit.


I wasn't commenting on the graphics at all (that picture's not good enough to see those), simply on the lever shape, which looks virtually identical to the 952 I pictured. Given that the new shift lever is designed to be pushed upwards as well as backwards you'd expect it to look a lot more like the new XT - the one Kabush is using wouldn't be very comfortable to push in the upwards direction. Your latest argument is now that since Shimano race tests it's protoypes, since this is a race that must be a protoype. I think you're the one who should wake up to the fact that prototype testing takes place in less important races where not only does it matter less if something doesn't work perfectly, there is also less media attention, so less chance of products being photographed, or comments being made if things break. I've certainly never heard of prototype testing in the TDF.

Comprehension isn't your strong suit - I was commenting on the age of the design (which is surely the important thing, unless you think shifters sitting in a box deteriorate with time - you can certainly still buy these in the shops), as was clear from the dates I also quoted. Anyway, I'm curious to know how you're so sure they stopped manufacture, since I know for a fact that some 750 series parts (2000-2003 XT) were still being manufactured last year.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Those shifters on Kabush's bike look nothing like the new shifters. Even the colour seems to light, too M952 like in fact.

Secondly, if theres any M970 in there it will Inside, where prying eyes can't get a decent look.

The marketing release is quite funny though since;

Shimano have always had a 6bolt rotor available in RT75
Shimano have always had both Low Normal (M960) and high normal (M951) available,
Shimano disc brakes have laways been compatible with 6bolt rotors (look at a Cannondale with lefty....)
Shimano have always had a XTR and XT triggers available and have remained in production....,
SHimano have always had Angular COntact bearings, they're called Cup and cone. What's different is that the cups and cones are replacable! 


The only new features are the two gear release,

Standardisation of XTR Chainrings ( A real First for XTR) although I suspect they will still cost a heck of a lot of money since they will be Carbon fibre/Titanium units.

Increased oil volume for the disc brakes

and New XTR Brake levers (Separate) with Carbon levers so that the person using the trigger shifter set up does not have a weight penalty over the Dual Control set up


Oh and the colours different.


The new Crank and rear derailleur should be nice too


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

*if you look at "his" right hand*

shifter you can make out that the 2 triggers are nearly the same legth, which looks
like the new xt style and not the older xtr style. the lever on his left is far longer than
the older xtr triggers were


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## WolverineGator (Feb 26, 2004)

*My new bike will be obsolete before it gets built!*

Ow. My head hurts from reading the last few replies to this thread.


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

Brad said:


> Shimano have always had a 6bolt rotor available in RT75
> Shimano have always had both Low Normal (M960) and high normal (M951) available,
> Shimano disc brakes have laways been compatible with 6bolt rotors (look at a Cannondale with lefty....)
> Shimano have always had a XTR and XT triggers available and have remained in production....,
> SHimano have always had Angular COntact bearings, they're called Cup and cone. What's different is that the cups and cones are replacable!


Sorta-
They didn't have a XTR level 6 bolt rotor
No XTR level seperate brake lever
Also don't think they still produced/sold XTR triggers. Maybe had some leftovers available, but they are ridiculously hard to find.

Either way they've been pushing a complete XTR system that included stuff many people didn't want (integrated ldual control ever/shifters, centerlock rotors, which aren't a BAD idea, non-standard chainrings, rapid rise der.). Even if they had alternatives, they mainly pushed the lot to bike makers and the alternative was harder to get. Obviously that plan backfired and they're settling into a less-invasive lineup.

Frankly I don't know why the XTR line sold at all. Imagine if intel told people that if you wanted to use the fastest pentium chips, you have to have an intel harddrive, memory, motherboard etc. Probably would catch alot of flak no?


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

bhsavery said:


> Also don't think they still produced/sold XTR triggers. Maybe had some leftovers available, but they are ridiculously hard to find.


????

Not in the UK anyway - next day delivery from here (they ship to the US too):
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=192

and a quick google gives a US source:
http://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp?part=45324&cat=280&brand=226


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*XTR BR-M965 Disc System 6-BOLT brakes...*

XTR BR-M965 Disc System has ALWAYS offerd 6-Bolt XTR Rotors.
I am looking at them now in a catalog .
I sold a TON of them since they have been available.

I think the hubs even hasd 6-Bolt for a few months, but seemed to disaperr in the catalog that I am looking at now.

XTR SL -M952 Shifters have ALWAYS been available. How many do you want??


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Correct. 
Shimano is testing 2008 E-DA in races right now. 
They are PROTOTYPES as well as Campagnolo with their electronic PROTO drivetrains, who BOTH test stuff with Pro in races BIG or SMALL.


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

Someone need an optician examination...


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> I'm sorry is 750 the same as 950? Are you number deficient?


So are you going to tell me how you know they stopped making 952 shifters, or just flame me? As mentioned before you seem to be a bit lacking in the comprehension department, as the 750 series was simply used as an example of something Shimano have "stopped making" which is still in production.



> BTW, look at the 2003 TDF, the yet unreleased DA 10 is all over the place. And yet it was used in a race that I would say has a little more importance than the Commonwealth Games, wouldn't you?


Yes, but that was production kit - you were suggesting that Kabush was using prototype stuff (hence why it was disguised with different levers from the production stuff). Also a big difference in the time frame - the following year's road stuff often sees the light of day in the Spring Classics, so by the time of the TDF it has been seriously tested. You seem to be suggesting that new kit was being used for the first time in an major event (one of the main season targets for many of those guys).



> In early 1997 Alison Sydor (and Team GT) used a machined prototype Rapid Rise rear derailleur at the Cactus Cup (traditional season opener in the '90s'). This was not released for production until 1998. You seriously do not know what you are talking about....


Which would be equivalent to the Sea Otter now, where we expect to see 2007 production kit, so your point is? You're the clueless one if you're comparing the Cactus Cup with the Commonwealth Games.


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> XTR BR-M965 Disc System has ALWAYS offerd 6-Bolt XTR Rotors.
> I am looking at them now in a catalog .
> I sold a TON of them since they have been available.
> 
> ...


But the 6-bolts rotors are the same as the XT and LX level rotors, not really a XTR level part... Yeah I know, I suspect the new ones will be the same too.

And the M952 shifters are of the last generation, not up to date. Yes they are still available but they are not a new design, not designed WITH the current XTR group. The new triggers will be new and technically and cosmetically integrated to the rest of the new group. That doesn't mean the M952 don't work just as good though.

And sorry to have posted the Geoff picture, didn't expect a cat fight like this!


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Well if you buy XTR Brakes, you get 6 Bolts rotors. They XT/XTR is the same rotor. But it's up to par with the CL in braking.

M952 Always worked with RR RD, so work fine with the 05-06 XTR RR RD.
You just shift the oppsite way. They ARE desgined to work with the current groop, if you use V-brakes or XT levers with Disc brakes.

RR RD (which is the current XTR RD) has been around for many, mnay years. 
Shimano is just going back to the old days and offering BOTH.

Shimano has FINALLY listened to consumers and giving you CHOICES!!


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> Well if you buy XTR Brakes, you get 6 Bolts rotors. They XT/XTR is the same rotor. But it's up to par with the CL in braking.
> 
> M952 Always worked with RR RD, so work fine with the 05-06 XTR RR RD.
> You just shift the oppsite way. They ARE desgined to work with the current groop, if you use V-brakes or XT levers with Disc brakes.
> ...


Agreed, more choices is better for us, which means better for them.

As long as they keep the same 2:1 cable pull ratio, you can mix and match pretty much any shifter and derailleur Shimano has made in the last XX years, as long as they have the same number of gears. Even that, I still have a bike with the first XTR RR, 8 speeds at the time, it has an integrated rollamagig thing on it and is still working like a charm mated to a 9 speed GripShift, dancing on a 9 speed ultegra cassette (no mountain 9 speed cassette at the time)...


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

Mr. Scary said:


> You can't be serious? The Commonwealth Games? Why wasn't the new XTR debuted there with fanfare (like it will be at Sea Otter) if the race was such a big deal? I have never heard anybody declare "Oh yeah, the Commonwealth Games are my major goal this year". Yep, Shimano would never want to gamble on a prototype at the Commonwealth Games. I heard Lance considered doing the Commonwealth Games but the pressure was too much for him. You almost had a clue, but then that slipped away as well. Are all Brits wankers, or is it just you?


I knew sooner or later you'd stop trying to defend your position and start attacking the CG instead. Just because it doesn't feature the USA doesn't mean it's not important (I'm sure Lance really wishes he could do the CG  ). In many Commonwealth countries it is second in importance only to the Olympics. In fact the MTB event got mainstream TV coverage in the UK, something I suspect no other event this year will - certainly not the Sea Otter LOL! Meanwhile XTR is being debuted at Sea Otter as that is where traditionally new stuff appears, and also journalists from around the world (rather than just our old colonies) will be there. Are all Yanks abusive and rude, or is it just you?


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## Rapier (Feb 15, 2006)

Those 1.500 grams tubeless wheels are interesting. I am tired of truing my notubes-tune-aeorlite wheelset after each 200-300 kms.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

*i wish they were giving*

the choice of 2 x 9! a lot of pros drop the granny so i was hoping they would have offered
a 29/42 ring combo with a narrower spindle.


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## Brib (Jan 7, 2004)

PICS!!!!

If you want to see pics of the new XTR group check this post!!!

pics on page nº2

http://www.foromtb.com/showthread.php?t=73071


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

damn looks like the cats out the bag now.....


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

*2007 XTR Pics...*

http://light-bikes.com/News/


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## Brib (Jan 7, 2004)

more pics..and text in spanish

http://www.foromtb.com/showthread.php?t=73071&page=3


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

I have to say that new dual control looks really ugly.









Shimano must be actively trying to encourage people to switch back to the new trigger, as that looks nice and functional, though actually nowhere near as nice as XO. Since it's not something you look at a lot, my decision will be made on functionality (will either get this or X0 for my new bike)









The new rear mech though - that's stunning!


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

Are the same rapidfire in the previous pic?


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

New dual control looks absolutely stunning. Functional industrial sort of like the joy stick from Vaders Tie Fighter


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

Personally I like only the rear derailleur, the rest of the group for me is very ugly.


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

From the spanish board and translated to english by Google: "that ugly thing but by God and outside coñas."

I don't know what "conas" is but I think the point is clear...

It's funny, I thoguht the deraileur and the dual control were the ugliest parts of that group... Thank you Shimano for confirming and strengthening my loyalty to Sram. What's with that stupid cast in X in everythign???

BM


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

The dual control lever looks like it has been trimmed down, taking away the bulky box that encloses the mechanism. It looks like what you see is what you get. Perhaps it's lighter that way?

I like the rear derailleur a lot though.

And I don't know about you but I don't look much at my bike when I ride (not even the controls), I look where I'm going.


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## Hosehead (May 4, 2005)

No pics of the cranks or brakes yet.  

I guess those items won't generate as much buzz as the other stuff, unless they do something dumb and put a bix "X" in the cranks.


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

Personally I put a great "X" on all the group.


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

Hosehead said:


> No pics of the cranks or brakes yet.
> 
> I guess those items won't generate as much buzz as the other stuff, unless they do something dumb and put a bix "X" in the cranks.


I can't wait to see the new cranks actually... Especially that middle carbon/ti ring... and the price tag...


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

yeah that middle Carbon Ti ring shold be interesting but I suspect all the rings will have this design.

Apparently the new rings will b cross compatible with M960 so not sure how it be fit deore XT cranks then.

ASdmittedly I've only had a wear issue with the middle ring myself so perhaps there merrit in hanging on to my old crank till it's really dead.

Looks pretty bad at the moment though....


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## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

*More pics...*


























































































Cheers,
Cris


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## dyst0pia (Nov 11, 2005)

I know that everybody has dropped the topic now, but I figured I would actually put it to rest since everybody seemed to doubt that Kabush was running the 2007 XTR at the Commonwealth Games.

Geoff Kabush was, without a doubt, using pre-production 2007 XTR shifters. He was using a regular XTR rear derailleur from this past 2005 model year. But, there is no doubt he was running pre-production (prototype if you will) shifters on his Nitrous at the Commonwealth Games. 

Stop with the crap about how the levers look the same as the old ones. I guarantee you that he was using the new stuff. 

If anybody doubts, feel free to say so. I have the Canadian National Team mechanic backing me up.


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

dyst0pia said:


> I know that everybody has dropped the topic now, but I figured I would actually put it to rest since everybody seemed to doubt that Kabush was running the 2007 XTR at the Commonwealth Games.
> 
> Geoff Kabush was, without a doubt, using pre-production 2007 XTR shifters. He was using a regular XTR rear derailleur from this past 2005 model year. But, there is no doubt he was running pre-production (prototype if you will) shifters on his Nitrous at the Commonwealth Games.
> 
> ...


Ok ok, may be, but you can't say that the XTR shifters in the previous pic are the same of the Kabush's pic.


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## dyst0pia (Nov 11, 2005)

scapin said:


> Ok ok, may be, but you can't say that the XTR shifters in the previous pic are the same of the Kabush's pic.


You will notice that I said they were pre-production prototype shifters. So no, they don't look the exact same, but everyone (including Velonews) was right in saying that they are the new 2007 XTR since they function the exact same, and were produced with that very purpose.


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

dyst0pia said:


> I know that everybody has dropped the topic now, but I figured I would actually put it to rest since everybody seemed to doubt that Kabush was running the 2007 XTR at the Commonwealth Games.
> 
> Geoff Kabush was, without a doubt, using pre-production 2007 XTR shifters. He was using a regular XTR rear derailleur from this past 2005 model year. But, there is no doubt he was running pre-production (prototype if you will) shifters on his Nitrous at the Commonwealth Games.
> 
> ...


No sorry, doesn't put it to rest for me. Either the Canadian National Team mechanic was smoking something or Shimano put some new internals into a M952 casing (in which case why all the hype about it being the new stuff, when it looked exactly like the old). His levers do look exactly like the old ones, even down to the bolt for the OGI (which he's removed). For those who doubt Shimano making a release lever that long, I'll take some pics tonight of my setup with the gear levers mounted outside the brake levers - looks pretty much exactly the same (I switched following these photos - don't know why I didn't think of it before). Finally, as I pointed out before, that release lever isn't correctly shaped to use with your thumb (being the old one), where you can now clearly see the new one has a backwards extension / flat shape to make this possible.

I was actually about to post asking whether everybody can now admit it's not a new shifter as the lever looks nothing like the new one!


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

dyst0pia said:


> You will notice that I said they were pre-production prototype shifters. So no, they don't look the exact same, but everyone (including Velonews) was right in saying that they are the new 2007 XTR since they function the exact same, and were produced with that very purpose.


Oh, and if they function exactly the same, how come they have a release lever that is so different and looks un-ergonomic to use with the thumb (and so much like the old one). You'd think one of the main points of racers testing the new kit is to check out the ergonomics.


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## Bzzzt (Sep 26, 2005)

Even more, quite large, pics here: http://terrengsykkel.no/?1498


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## dhpimp (Jan 4, 2006)

dyst0pia said:


> I know that everybody has dropped the topic now, but I figured I would actually put it to rest since everybody seemed to doubt that Kabush was running the 2007 XTR at the Commonwealth Games.
> 
> Geoff Kabush was, without a doubt, using pre-production 2007 XTR shifters. He was using a regular XTR rear derailleur from this past 2005 model year. But, there is no doubt he was running pre-production (prototype if you will) shifters on his Nitrous at the Commonwealth Games.
> 
> ...


Kabush is not using the new shifters, period. He is not involved in Product Testing/ Product Development with Shimano.


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## dyst0pia (Nov 11, 2005)

dhpimp said:


> Kabush is not using the new shifters, period. He is not involved in Product Testing/ Product Development with Shimano.


How can you be so positive when the person who put his bike together at the Commonwealth Games knows that they are the new XTR shifters?

Also, if you are basing this above argument on the fact that he races for Sram, then how would you explain him using Shimano at all in the first place? Obviously something has happened regarding who wants Geoff riding what, as he has always used x.0 in the past.

Either way, you guys are freaking out about something that doesn't matter AT ALL! What does it really matter if he used the new shifters or not? Why do you find that thought so offensive so as to defend it from occuring to the death?

I am 100% positive he used them. That is obviously my personal belief based upon talking to the man who put his bike together for the Games.


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

Racers change sponsors all the time, and at the start of a season makes sense too.


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## dyst0pia (Nov 11, 2005)

chris m said:


> Finally, as I pointed out before, that release lever isn't correctly shaped to use with your thumb (being the old one), where you can now clearly see the new one has a backwards extension / flat shape to make this possible.


As an addition to my other post:

It sure seems to me like the back side of that release arm we see (the side facing Geoff) is flat enough to be able to push away from him. Also, don't forget that with the new shifters you can either pull towards you or push away, so it could just be a possibility that they are using an older shifter pod, and changed it around just so you can do multiple shifts with the trigger as opposed to just one? I don't know what exactly they did with the shifter pod, all I know is I have first-hand accounts (from the person who built the bike) that the shifters are the new ones. The mechanic is reputable, he was the friggin' Canadian mechanic for the 2004 Olympics!


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

dyst0pia said:


> As an addition to my other post:
> 
> It sure seems to me like the back side of that release arm we see (the side facing Geoff) is flat enough to be able to push away from him. Also, don't forget that with the new shifters you can either pull towards you or push away, so it could just be a possibility that they are using an older shifter pod, and changed it around just so you can do multiple shifts with the trigger as opposed to just one? I don't know what exactly they did with the shifter pod, all I know is I have first-hand accounts (from the person who built the bike) that the shifters are the new ones. The mechanic is reputable, he was the friggin' Canadian mechanic for the 2004 Olympics!


Either:

A) He's smoking something
B) He was told they were the new bits even though they weren't
C) He's having you on
or most unlikely of all
D) they have all the external parts of the old shifters, but with new bits inside.

I really struggle to work out why they would bother with D. As I said before, surely the whole point of racers trying out new kit is that the ergonomics are the same, so they can get some feedback on how they are in use. I mean they can do all the testing of functionality in secret at the factory without needing to send them out - and that is the only point of testing something without anything remotely like the final contact points.

Why are we banging on about this - because people still don't get it! AFAICS this whole rumour started because those photos to some people looked like different stuff to the current triggers, simply because he's running the brake clamps inside the shifters rather than the other way round as is normal (and the only possibility if you don't remove the OGIs). Personally I'm 100% sure that is an old SL-M952 trigger you can see in those photos.


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

chris m said:


> Why are we banging on about this - because people still don't get it! AFAICS this whole rumour started because those photos to some people looked like different stuff to the current triggers, simply because he's running the brake clamps inside the shifters rather than the other way round as is normal (and the only possibility if you don't remove the OGIs). Personally I'm 100% sure that is an old SL-M952 trigger you can see in those photos.


It all started because the Shimano press release said Geoff was riding a prototype at the Commonwealth Games... I then posted a picture here so people could see/judge/complain/fight about it.


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## chrism (Jan 27, 2004)

Dan Gerous said:


> It all started because the Shimano press release said Geoff was riding a prototype at the Commonwealth Games... I then posted a picture here so people could see/judge/complain/fight about it.


Having checked back in the thread, the first mention of Kabush in fact was in Matt Pacocha's report:



Matt Pacocha said:


> Geoff Kabush was seen with the new Dual Release Rapid Fire shifters at the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne


so no press release, just a journalist seeing something unfamiliar and putting 2 and 2 together to make 5.

Actually that's all a load of rubbish as I'm really a Shimano tester, and I've been playing down the Kabush pictures all along - they weren't meant to get out so early. As you can see I have the same prototype shifters Kabush was using on my bike, with the same longer lever you all so cleverly noticed.


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## moose8500 (Sep 18, 2004)

I guess that lays the issue to rest, nice when somebody actually argues something with proof, not "somebody's brother's cousin told me its the new XTR"


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## scapin (Oct 22, 2005)

chrism said:


> Having checked back in the thread, the first mention of Kabush in fact was in Matt Pacocha's report:
> 
> so no press release, just a journalist seeing something unfamiliar and putting 2 and 2 together to make 5.
> 
> Actually that's all a load of rubbish as I'm really a Shimano tester, and I've been playing down the Kabush pictures all along - they weren't meant to get out so early. As you can see I have the same prototype shifters Kabush was using on my bike, with the same longer lever you all so cleverly noticed.


Chrism, is time-wasted, I surrender.


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

scapin said:


> Chrism, is time-wasted, I surrender.


I presume you did both get the sarcasm in my last post, as Scapin at least was agreeing with me earlier? Just in case anybody didn't, I was joking about being a Shimano tester (those are M952s on my bike)!


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Actually Option D is plausible from a very simple perspective. They were not testing ergonomics since there would be plenty of time to hone that before production kit becomes available.

I think is the answer, the new internals were fitted to the M952 casing for durability and race testing of the mechanism before Sea Otter. Geoff was not a contender for a medal anyways so why let him put some mileage on the new kit?

A non podium contender also would attract far less attention than say a Liam Killeen or other.

In Short we don't know what was on Geoff's bike.


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## chrism (Jan 27, 2004)

Brad said:


> I think is the answer, the new internals were fitted to the M952 casing for durability and race testing of the mechanism before Sea Otter. Geoff was not a contender for a medal anyways so why let him put some mileage on the new kit?


Really not sure why I'm bothering anymore - I presume everybody does now accept the externals were M952? The question is, what exactly would Shimano gain by such an exercise? They can test durability on a machine in the factory, or by getting their pro testers to take the kit out training out of the public gaze. The fact that they'd have to modify it so much to make it look like an M952 would pretty much nullify that exercise anyway.

In any case, what are you basing your theory that he had anything new on? Presumably on the Velonews report. Which was in turn based upon a misinterpretation of the external appearance of the shifters. I could just as well suggest that Oli Beckingsale was using the new disc brakes, but in the old housings so you couldn't tell, as Shimano needed to get some testing in. Oh, and what's so special about the Sea Otter that they needed to get some race testing in before that (note that Liam says the Commonwealth win was his best result ever - and he won a Norba last year  )

That's it, I officially give up. If anybody still really thinks Kabush had new Shimano on his bike, then you've been smoking something. I'm not going to bother arguing with you any more!


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## Dan Gerous (Feb 18, 2004)

Brad said:


> Geoff was not a contender for a medal anyways so why let him put some mileage on the new kit?


Not a contender? You mean after he was known to be a littel sick I hope, everybody expected him to win until he got sick just before the race. I think that Geoff, on top of his form, would have easily won that race (riding old XTR or new), he's the closest in performance to the top 'non-commonwealth' racers like Sauser, Absalon and such.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

*thank god.*

let it rest


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## Braids (Jan 12, 2004)

bhsavery said:


> Also don't think they still produced/sold XTR triggers. Maybe had some leftovers available, but they are ridiculously hard to find.


They are easy to find you just have to ask for them. I bought a new Racer 100X last year and ask for XTR trigger shifters and got them.
I don't think for the last two years the XTR trigger shifters have been speced on any bikes OEM. I could be wrong though.
I think I'm going to wait until 2008 until I even think about getting the new XTR. There seem to be a lot of changes and my 2006 XTR is doing me just fine now.


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## Tbonius (Jan 13, 2004)

*you got it.*

I've been hanging out with Geoff's Mechanic, his swimming coach, and this little Spanish guy that apparently cuts his grass. They are all telling me that it's not even Kabush in the race (this could explain the poor showing) - Apparently Kabush has a body double (not unlike Hollywood actors)..this person has his EXACT physical dimensions, and even had a chin tuck to seal the deal. I said to myself..."Self....that is just crazy!"....but low and behold I was out one night throwing back lucky lagers in a local biker bar frequented by pro riders and pack fill alike, and who do I see hanging off the bar like some curb dwelling wino ringing a bell and begging for nickels? Kabushki. YEP. I walked straight up to him and asked him "Bro...what gives?"....he looked at me a little crosseyed....and muttered something about his body double being faster than he was.....I don't know - I could barely make it out...he was on the verge of vomiting or something, and this horse of a brawd was pulling his hair and screaming something about the movie Goodfellas....so take it with a grain of salt..but It sounds pretty dang legit from where I coming from. Why would his gardener lie about something like that anyway?


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

ya I'm talking about after he was found to be down with a viral infection. but that was two days before the race though...


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## Nigel (Jan 13, 2004)

In regards to the hubs and the wheelset....
I always thought that was the weakest part of the XTR groupset relative to the rest of the competitiion. 
By the look of the hubs and wheelsets for 07, not much has changed, so most people will continue to stay away from buying them.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Not sure what so weak about the Hubs and Wheelsets.
The weight is low,
the strength is high
the hubs are well sealed and light and require little maintenance
friction is very low when compared to say a DT Hugi or a Chris King hub
and longeity is superior to American Classic/WTB

So whats the problem?


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## chris m (May 27, 2005)

I guess the "problem" is that other companies make lighter hubs, with the perceived advantage of "sealed" bearings. As always, Shimano sets the benchmark for value for money, but generally the XTR buyer isn't interested in that, as they're already well beyond the point of diminishing returns, so the fact that the Shimano hubs are relatively heavy makes them unappealing. Personally I'd like the good sealing and easy maintenance of Shimano, but bearing in mind the title of this board, am prepared to spend a little more time on maintenance in the pursuit of less weight.

I've never understood why the freewheeling resistance of CK and DT is touted as an issue, given that if it's a problem, all you have to do is pedal.


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## stillkeen (Mar 22, 2005)

Brad said:


> Shimano have always had a 6bolt rotor available ...
> Shimano have always had a XTR and XT triggers available and have remained in production....,
> SHimano have always had Angular COntact bearings, they're called Cup and cone. What's different is that the cups and cones are replacable!  ...


Centre Lock/XTR Rapid Fire: There is 'available' and then there is 'readily available'. I think the thing is, Shimano tried to push the centre lock/dual control hard, and the majority of the shops/sites selling shimano at good prices, were carrying the centre lock option. The best I ever found online (I wasnt looking hard) was shops that would swap out the rotors for you.

Shimano took a gamble, trying to bring in new features and remove inter-brand compatability, and looking at the changes for 2007, I think they have realised that it didnt go as they wanted. Since Shimano went down this route, SRAM just seems to have grown rapidly.

Hopefully the discount web retailers will have the iso rotors, non-integrated shifters etc 'readily available' at good prices.

If Shimano are going back (did they ever use press fit cups, or was that just campag?) to replacable cups in their hubs, then that is fantastic. You can buy expensive XTR hubs, and they can be rebuilt over and over again .... It will take a bit of getting used to to have Shimano stuff that isnt throw-away ....

Some big U-turns for Shimano .... just goes to show that lots of individuals not buying into the shimano hype seems to have worked.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

Lighter?

My rear XTR M965 hub is 304gr (weighed ex skewer).
Chris King is 337gr (weighed in shop ex skewer)

Only hubs lighter are the TF Tuned, FRM, American Classic and DT Hugi 240s.
All weighed without skewers of course.

Taking into account that the Xtr is about 15% cheaper than all save the American Classic which is cheaper (But very very unreliable), it represents the best value for money in performance stakes.
With the skewer it typically comes in within 20gr of a Hugi with a steel axle skewer.

The "problem' is that companies like Chris King do make excellent hubs with brillaint technology but the (as you rightly pointed out) perceived advantageof sealed bearings ususally swings the sale.

AS a point of maintenance comparison, my M965 hubs are Jan 2003 vintage, have done well over 12 000km, probably closer to 16 000 if my Polar is too be believed and they've been opened for maintenance 3 times. On the first two occasions they were simply resealed - the grease was still clean. The freehub has been flushed and relubed and is back to tip top working condition.
In case you're wondering, the hubs have been through all conditions.

I think the biggest "problem' is that XTR just isn't BLING enough, despite being the benchmark for performance, price and longevity.


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## What&son (Jan 13, 2004)

*yes*



Brad said:


> Lighter?
> 
> My rear XTR M965 hub is 304gr (weighed ex skewer).
> Chris King is 337gr (weighed in shop ex skewer)
> ...


I couldn´t agree more. XTR hubs are excellent. I believe people like "sealed" bearings better just becouse are called like that, where shimanos are "cup and cone" and are afraid there is something wrong there with the seals... Working in a bike shop I see loads of wrong assumptions all the time.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Brad said:


> The "problem' is that companies like Chris King do make excellent hubs with brillaint technology but the (as you rightly pointed out) perceived advantageof sealed bearings ususally swings the sale..


That and there's the fact that many of those "light" hubs use aluminum cassette bodies, which gets torn up by gears, even when a carrier is used on the large gears, some of the smaller gears can tear into the cassette body. Shimano doesn't compramise here to drop weight, it's either steel or titanium, not relatively soft aluminum.

A lot of companies make realtively simple and light rear hubs with skateboard-cartridge bearings and aluminum cassette bodies. For some people and some cassettes, they work ok, but shimano doesn't compramise here.


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## Brad (May 2, 2004)

he only two brands of Sealed Bearing Hubs I respect from a design point of view is Chris King because their bearings are essentially replaceable Cup and Cone bearings and DT Hugi 240 for the same reason.

The rest are basically just skateboard bearing carriers with soft freehub bodies as hasalready been pointed out.

What I really respect abou Shimano is that they are now moving to an oversize aluminium axle but are retaining the titanium freehub body on the XTR line.

The marketers of "Sealed Bearing" Hubs have been very successful in convincing buyers that their cartridge types are better. What they don't tell you is that the seals on the bearings are designe to keep grease and oil inside but not to keep dirt out. Most of the bearings employed in those hubs are designed to locate shafts in gearboxes where lateral loads are absorbed by an Angular contact bearing or a thrust bearing (two bearing used for minimal space usage) and the bearings operate in a very clean environment - immersed in oil or behind a sealed casing.

No MYB hub will keep dirt out forever but Labyrinth seals work best and angular contact bearings take up all the loads the hubs experience. Hence Shimano XTR, Chris King and DT Hugi use variations on this design in conjunction with Labyrinth seals - It'sjust that XTR uses 2 instead of one.


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## Dover (Jan 4, 2006)

dyst0pia said:


> How can you be so positive when the person who put his bike together at the Commonwealth Games knows that they are the new XTR shifters?
> 
> I am 100% positive he used them. That is obviously my personal belief based upon talking to the man who put his bike together for the Games.


I know people at SHIMANO and I will assure you that Geoff is *NOT* using new shifters. If SHIMANO was going to sponsor someone like Geoff Kabush dont you think they would also sponsor his brakes? not those POS he is using in the picture.


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