# Training, Weight Loss and Old Age



## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

Summary: Lifetime athlete, running ultras and all kinds of bike racing. I'm 6' 2" and was in outstanding condition 30's to late 40's and race weight was 160-165. Had to back off a bit due to career change and gained a bit of weight and by the mid-50's "race weight" was 185, including a little extra leg muscle from daily physical labor.

Fast forward to 2015 (56) and I manifested with a never diagnosed autoimmune disorder. 3+ years of massive doses of Prednisone and 2 years on a biologic, seem to have scared my nemesis into remission. But now I am a somewhat portly 210.

I still love to train hard and put in 5-6 days a week on the bike. 85-140 miles/wk. I would love to get well under 200 again.

MyFitnessPal says I should be eating 1540 cal/day to lose 1.5 lbs/week. That does not seem sufficient fuel to train hard.

So my question is: How do I calculate how many calories/day to lose weight AND do the hard work of training.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

weight loss is math, and its actually really easy, at least on paper, thanks to science! 1 pound of fat is roughly 3000-3500 calories. no mater how you slice it, if you burn more than you consume, you lose weight. The trick is training in zones that target fat burn, not muscle, at least while trying to drop weight as a priority above outright fitness/power. That being said, about 20 years ago I was 215 and about 15% body fat. I chose to fuel to a level that made me feel strong, and then trained long enough and hard enough to where I was calorie negative. Once I arrived at 160 and 7% i just chase the balance of power/weight with diet each day. Focus on the weight loss first and real training a little later might be a good move for ya. Youll likely drop the weight faster than you think


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

numbnuts said:


> The trick is training in zones that target fat burn, not muscle


Can you hook me up with a way to figure out what zone to be in to do this? If I could train there, I could melt fat off of my body while running on a caloric deficit, but prevent any muscle loss while somehow giving my body less calories than it needs to maintain itself.

I think there is more going on in reality. If it were this easy, we would all be able to drop to whatever weight we wanted to run and have possibly zero body fat while keeping all of our muscle and we all would look like body builders on competition day.

A lot of times people running on caloric deficits (think everybody who "diets") lose weight but keep a doughy physique, because of a ton of physiological things going on with metabolism that I really don't want to get into. 

I think for a lot of people it's not so easy to get lean like it is for those of us who can do it simply by cutting out our third helping of lasagna at dinner, or avoiding those two calzones immediately before bedtime.

But generally yes, eat a little less and workout a little more. Try to gain muscle, which oddly enough seems counterintuitive, because you need to eat to do that, but it will help in the long term.


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## 915654 (Jul 27, 2021)

jrob300 said:


> Summary: Lifetime athlete, running ultras and all kinds of bike racing. I'm 6' 2" and was in outstanding condition 30's to late 40's and race weight was 160-165. Had to back off a bit due to career change and gained a bit of weight and by the mid-50's "race weight" was 185, including a little extra leg muscle from daily physical labor.
> 
> Fast forward to 2015 (56) and I manifested with a never diagnosed autoimmune disorder. 3+ years of massive doses of Prednisone and 2 years on a biologic, seem to have scared my nemesis into remission. But now I am a somewhat portly 210.
> 
> ...


Instead of losing 1.5 lbs per week only do 1 lb. It is going to take time to lose that much weight. Get the cheapest Fitbit and it will become your friend. That way you can see what your calorie requirements are.

look up macro calculator and it will tell you what your protein, carbs and fats should be. Then just input all that into MyFitnessPal.


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## dsciulli19 (Apr 14, 2014)

I'm not over 50 but targeting a 1.5lb/week is pretty aggressive. I'd shoot for 1lb/week or so as others have said. May not be the most scientific explanation here but you need to eat the right amount of calories frequently enough in order to keep your metabolism moving or your body will hold on to whatever it can and make losing weight difficult, all while not going into a caloric surplus.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

KobayashiMaru said:


> Can you hook me up with a way to figure out what zone to be in to do this? If I could train there, I could melt fat off of my body while running on a caloric deficit, but prevent any muscle loss while somehow giving my body less calories than it needs to maintain itself.


Yeah. This. 👆

I agree that 1.5 lbs/wk is probably too aggressive. I have my first gravel race of the year in 12 weeks and really not looking forward to lugging my fat ass up some steep climbs, but I also know that long-term gains are important, so I want to do this right.

Without any other guidance, the plan right now is an intense 60-90 minute workout (Z3-4 with a smattering of Z5 tossed in) on Tues or Wed and a longish (3-5 hour) ride on Sunday, with the rest of the week filled with Z1/Z2 rides. Rest days as my body tells me.

I was just concerned that if my calories were cut back to lose weight, that it would have deleterious effects on my race prep.


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## Scott2MTB (Feb 2, 2015)

These are the rules I live by. I've tried to make it simple so that it continues to be sustainable beyond just those targetted fatloss periods.

I don't target "x pounds per week." Calorie calculators are just a jumping off point and trying to be so calculated is impossible, or at least unneccessarily difficult. I pick the maintenance calories for sedentary lifestyle (not base metabolic rate), and eat to that level and I don't eat back the calories burned from excercise I do. (If you use the calculations for active lifestyle, it's already taking into account your excercise and you won't be on target.) Then I watch the scale and more importantly, body fat percentages. If you're making progress on the scale, and you don't feel like you're starving to death, then you're on target, if you're starving but making progress (or whatever) add or subtract 100 calories per day for a week (etc).

As far as exercise zones, I wouldn't worry about it. There are as many examples of body builder types getting super shreddded walking as there are of those who do intense HIIT. My approach is to just be active. Ride, run, walk, and stay vertical as much as possible. (Obviously, riding is the best!) It's just basic math. Exercise will create a deficit (assuming you're sticking to your caloric goal) and being vertical will help keep the metabolism up.

The real trick is to be hyper aware of what you're eating and target your macros. Calories hide everywhere. For example, that "touch" of coffee creamer is probably full of fat and calorically dense - meaing you're getting no satiety for the calories you're eating. Do you really need it? You might (I do) and because I'm aware of it, I can adjust elsewhere. Stick to .6 to 1 gram of protien per pound of weight and fill in the rest with carbs and fats - whatever makes you happy. Just be aware that calorie dense foods (ice cream for example) don't fill you up but use up your calories quick. On the other hand, you can eat nutrionally dense food (carrots for example) till you pop like a pinata and you won't have hardly eaten any calories. 

You can also be tactical about your meal timing. If you have a physical job, a big lunch might be neccessary but you may be able to get away with just a snack first thing in the morning. Figure out your hunger patterns and eat your bigger meals to address them while eating leaner on the others.

Sorry about the longer post, hopefully there's some info in there that you find helpful.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

There are variations but in your situation i would focus on eating quality for 15 weeks that will drop about 30 pounds.
Maybe while doing that you could focus on stretching and endurance/distance.
No need to count calories, just eat quality unprocessed and excess will go.
Probably 1/2 is fat and 1/2 is water retention.
Than you can keep your new eating habits and push your training the way you choose.
Stay away from supplements, powders, etc...
Drink water, eat real food.


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## gocat (Feb 27, 2012)

Not sure if counting calories is the answer. Its counting carbs. If you want to tap into your bodies fat storage. Your body needs adapt to burning fat.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

gocat said:


> Not sure if counting calories is the answer. Its counting carbs. If you want to tap into your bodies fat storage. Your body needs adapt to burning fat.


Agreed, thus my statement to target exercise zones to that burn fat not muscle. Counting calories is still very important because more in than out equals weight gain. Counting alone isn't the answer, but it is needed.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

gocat said:


> Not sure if counting calories is the answer. Its counting carbs. If you want to tap into your bodies fat storage. Your body needs adapt to burning fat.


And intermittent fasting will train your body to burn fat. After 12 hours it has no option. As a bonus, carb cravings go away and your risk of insulin resistance too. Most days we eat in a roughly 8 hour window, but of course fuel up before a big or hard ride.


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## Bhamss (Dec 23, 2014)

I turn into Cookie Monster after I ride


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## Bmateo1 (Dec 7, 2009)

jrob300 said:


> Summary: Lifetime athlete, running ultras and all kinds of bike racing. I'm 6' 2" and was in outstanding condition 30's to late 40's and race weight was 160-165. Had to back off a bit due to career change and gained a bit of weight and by the mid-50's "race weight" was 185, including a little extra leg muscle from daily physical labor.
> 
> *Fast forward to 2015 (56) and I manifested with a never diagnosed autoimmune disorder. 3+ years of massive doses of Prednisone* and 2 years on a biologic, seem to have scared my nemesis into remission. But now I am a somewhat portly 210.
> 
> ...


Hi, I read this, and particularly the bolded. I have some info that 'might' help. My wife (not an athlete, not a cyclist) was diagnosed with Human Parvo over two years ago. She was sent to a series of doctors, mostly Rhumatologists. She was very dissatisfied because all they did was prescribe different medicines. She was on high doses of prednisone (not safe, has bone-density and other downsides, the least of which was turning my sweet wife into a possessed Sasquatch....). She insisted this was not the right path, but the doctors would not listen. 

She finally got fed up about 3 months ago, and took some advice from an online forum (I know, I know, yet here I am giving advice on a forum). She researched, and then started taking high doses of Liposomal Vitamin C. Within a week she started having less pain, sleeping through the night, and generally feeling better. She has been slowly weening off the prednisone and is now down to 2mg a day, and feeling better than she has in two-plus years.

I'm not a doctor, I don't own stock in Vitamin C, but as her husband it was hard to watch her in pain with no real answers. You 'might' investigate to see if the Liposomal Vitamin C could help you. Worst case, you have enhanced immunity and neon pee..... 

I hope you feel better, and find a way to get your mojo back.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

Bmateo1 said:


> She was on high doses of prednisone (not safe, has bone-density and other downsides, the least of which was turning my sweet wife into a possessed Sasquatch....).


At the risk of derailing my own thread.... Prednisone is one of the most over-prescribed drugs on the market. It is irresponsible how doctors pivot to it for literally everything, and then when it relieves your symptoms, quit looking into it. Luckily I found a doc who did the research and successfully weaned me off that evil drug. It took a year. My mom never got off the stuff because she kept tapering too quickly.

In addition to the symptoms you describe, it can cause cognitive issues and permanent memory loss. I hope your wife gets back to normal health after all this.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Weight loss is as never as simple as we feel it should be.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

If you're maintaining your weight on the food you eat now at your activity level. This is your base calories. So document everything you eat for a week and get the average calories you eat for a day. Remove 500 calories per day. Start with junk and processed foods. When weight loss stalls drop another 500 calories a day from starches. This is the slow and steady approach. The quick approach is to remove all junk and carbs from your diet until you get to below target weight. Than add back slowly to gain to target weight. This will become your new base.


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## Jolyzara (Jan 11, 2022)

"Burning Fat" in an aerobic zone compared to "Carbs" in an aerobic zone is a myth. The further you go with greater exertion will always burn the most calories. "Long Slow Distance" will never burn as much as hard interval training (for the same distance). Ride often, ride far and with intensity.


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## cwoodffr (May 23, 2019)

Dkayak said:


> And intermittent fasting will train your body to burn fat. After 12 hours it has no option. As a bonus, carb cravings go away and your risk of insulin resistance too. Most days we eat in a roughly 8 hour window, but of course fuel up before a big or hard ride.


Big believer in this....and thought I could also work out hard while fasted.....I cannot. Feeding before high effort exercise is key. Low intensity fasted.....burns fat....I found this lecture very good.


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## Scott2MTB (Feb 2, 2015)

Big believer in the BEST Diet


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

cwoodffr said:


> Big believer in this....and* thought I could also work out hard while fasted.....I cannot. * Feeding before high effort exercise is key. Low intensity fasted.....burns fat....I found this lecture very good.


You can, but not for long! I'm good for about an hour. Longer than that and bonking looms ahead, so I fuel up a bit in advance and graze along the way. Steady inputs of food and water are ideal, though I sometimes get distracted and forget. A friend tells me Garmin can be programmed to provide drink reminders.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

You can train hard fasted if fat adapted (well into keto diet)


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

Cerberus75 said:


> You can train hard fasted if fat adapted (well into keto diet)


Yes, very true. I just find it helpful to add a bit up front and along the way, but not as much is needed once you’re fat adapted. I always carry a gel and usually a pack of fig bars. Half the time I end up giving them to friends who are running out of gas.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

I've been doing the 18/6 eating thing. It works for me. Some days it's more like 16/8, but I try. The weight loss has been slow and steady, but the key for me - it's sustainable, with minimal effort, and I see results. Of course the better you eat, the faster it goes.... but I eat a cookie at 7pm. Life is too short to give up cookies. 

Doing an easy 30 min recovery spin, while fasting, is supposedly great for burning fat. I've done it a couple of times, and it was fine, but I got hungry quicker afterwards. I have to fuel up for any intensity riding.


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## cwoodffr (May 23, 2019)

d365 said:


> I've been doing the 18/6 eating thing. It works for me. Some days it's more like 16/8, but I try. The weight loss has been slow and steady, but the key for me - it's sustainable, with minimal effort, and I see results. Of course the better you eat, the faster it goes.... but I eat a cookie at 7pm. Life is too short to give up cookies.
> 
> Doing an easy 30 min recovery spin, while fasting, is supposedly great for burning fat. I've done it a couple of times, and it was fine, but I got hungry quicker afterwards. I have to fuel up for any intensity riding.


yes has worked well for me for years...easy to go from dinner to dinner or dinner to late lunch. That said....I had the nastiest bonk ever when trying to go hard while fasted. Will have to see if I can improve in that regard.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Many overweight people will say, loosing weight is easy.
The hard part is to keep selecting good foods.
An other way to see it is bad habits are hard to quit.
In 2000 jan first i stopped smoking, it was maybe the tenth time but it was the last one,
the good one. For a month i put myself in the frame of mind that not smoking would
help me to have real golden years. Being retired and healthy.
They said it takes 7 years to replace all our lungs cells so at 49 i would be more or less
like a non smoker. 21 years later i am real glad i did it, better health and saving $.

Maybe you can simply decide and than it will happen.
Good luck !


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cerberus75 said:


> You can train hard fasted if fat adapted (well into keto diet)




I realize it may not be applicable to this conversation because probably no one here is an elite athlete but do you think there are any elite endurance athletes who train hard on a keto diet? I've never heard of one.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

J.B. Weld said:


> I realize it may not be applicable to this conversation because probably no one here is an elite athlete but do you think there are any elite endurance athletes who train hard on a keto diet? I've never heard of one.











Ironman Legend Dave Scott Shares His Nutrition Tips


The six-time Kona champ adheres to a ketogenic diet, which is high in healthy fats, and low in simple carbohydrates.




www.triathlete.com





And maybe not keto, but low carb.





Tour de France Winners are Low-Carb Advocates!


This year’s Tour de France was brilliant for the low-carb world. Chris Froome, winner, and Romain Bardet, second place, are both low-carb advocates!




realmealrevolution.com


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

These are money makers. They can lie, just pretend to do what the big sponsor wants.
We all know in tennis the top pretend they changed racket but it is the old one with make up.
It takes months to get used to a new raquet, it just has the color and logo.
They drug themselves they are willing to lie.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Dkayak said:


> Ironman Legend Dave Scott Shares His Nutrition Tips
> 
> 
> The six-time Kona champ adheres to a ketogenic diet, which is high in healthy fats, and low in simple carbohydrates.
> ...




I think it's been a long time since Dave Scott has raced competitively so I do wonder how seriously he's training now @68 y/o.

As far as the Froome thing goes that story has been very suspect from the get-go and some even claim that Froome may have been trolling. At any rate pretty much no one disputes that he fuels his training rides and races with gigantic loads of carbs.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

@Jb sorry I can't quote it messes everything up. Keto is starting to gain popularity with endurance athletes. Some cycling, tri athletes and marathon racers do it. It takes at least 6 months to be fully fat adapted. You can't push past level 2 until then efficiency. I think if the adaptation period was shorter it would be more popular. Periodically on hard training days and race days you can incorporate low carb and when you run out of glycogen you don't bonk you just run on fat stores. I was going to put it to the test this year but I got Covid really bad and still not full recovered.


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## gocat (Feb 27, 2012)

Cerberus75 said:


> You can train hard fasted if fat adapted (well into keto diet)


I actually ride in the morning in a fasted state. Then eat around 12-1 pm. Im on a LCHF foods. ( mostly keto) I dont call it a diet anymore since its been 4-5 years.


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

Almost all ultra runners I know that espouse the fat adapted diet still take calories from simple and complex carbs during longer races or runs. I know a few elite athletes that hold course records for 100 mile races that are keto runners. When you ask them what they used during the race they do not say avocados and boiled eggs, they say gels and waffles and handfuls of M&M's lol.

But regarding the prednisone discussion, I know people that specifically buy it in Mexico, and self-medicate every time they get the sniffles. We had a Lab retriever that my wife put on prednisone, and he lost his muscle tone and got all droopy and weird. I'd never put that in my body, ugh.

Diet is by far the hardest aspect of a healthy lifestyle to regulate imho. I have tried many times to reduce carbs in my diet, eventually I end up feeling like crap and craving carbs. My workout performance suffers. I remember driving to a marathon one morning, and forgot to bring breakfast on the road with me. I stopped and bought a coffee and a huge cinnamon roll with frosting, it just looked so tempting. I ate that, and had the best race of my life. YMMV.

I am not a fan of keto diets, I prefer to try and balance my diet with most of my carbs coming early in the day, transitioning to more protein later in the day. I guess my thinking is that I fuel myself to get through the day, and want protein to rebuild while I sleep.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

I like the idea of fasting, but I do run into problems with it. As an older female, it really messes with hormones, and that was something I was not expecting. I cannot fast too long (16 hours max) because of reactive hypoglycemia.

I've had the best results by keeping a food diary or app. I'm back to MyFtinessPal for tracking food, and realizing just how much crap I eat. I also have to be particularly careful of macros and keep them balanced. That's been my best weight loss.

I also know what my problem is: too high of fats, and not enough fiber. Need to cut back on proportions too, so now I'm back on MFP to get my crappy diet cleaned up.

The other thing that helps me considerably: having enough fiber in my diet. Veggies, good grains with fiber, minimal amount of white sugars and heavily refined grains.

Another thing that helps taking care of any allergies. For example, I have a dairy allergy--not lactose intolerant, but an allergy to casein and whey (the dairy proteins). Which means, lunch meats that use casein as a filler, a lot of wheat that uses whey as a filler, means I have to cut out a lot of things. Not a bad thing-- but taking out the allergen makes my feel a lot better.

I had to restart my weight loss journey too: I'm back up, and I've also had to reduce my fat intake too.

Please do not preach to me about low carb diets. Last time I tried it with my hypoglycemia, I almost ended up in the hospital. We each have our own needs, and a lot of these need a dietician or a nutritionist or even possibly an MD to make sure we do something that doesn't endanger ourselves.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Carbs are necessary; anyone that says otherwise and is an active athlete is unusual or atypical.

Carbs are an absolute necessity for athletes.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

nOOky said:


> Almost all ultra runners I know that espouse the fat adapted diet still take calories from simple and complex carbs during longer races or runs. I know a few elite athletes that hold course records for 100 mile races that are keto runners. When you ask them what they used during the race they do not say avocados and boiled eggs, they say gels and waffles and handfuls of M&M's lol.
> 
> But regarding the prednisone discussion, I know people that specifically buy it in Mexico, and self-medicate every time they get the sniffles. We had a Lab retriever that my wife put on prednisone, and he lost his muscle tone and got all droopy and weird. I'd never put that in my body, ugh.
> 
> ...


I'm a vegetarian and when I was running ultras I didn't change my diet at all.

Anything under six hours can be managed using glycogen stores in the muscles.

I don't think a high protein diet makes much difference either way, your body burns protein for calories

I think what ultra runners eat while there running has more to do with taste than dietary need. When you're running for hours and hours. and your feeling "blah" (bored), anything tasty acts as a psychological pick me up.

For perspective:

A gram of carbohydrate has *4 calories*. A gram of protein has *4 calories*. A gram of fat has *9 calories*


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

gocat said:


> Not sure if counting calories is the answer. Its counting carbs. If you want to tap into your bodies fat storage. Your body needs adapt to burning fat.


This right here. Drop carbs and sugars to below 50g a day or less (20-40 is my range). Working out 5-6 days a week and carb/sugar restrictions will work wonders. If you can eliminate completely- but that’s hard to do!!! Throw in 16/8 fasting and you’ll shed pounds. Eat proteins and veggies and don’t count calories or anything. It works and you aren’t starving yourself. Try to aim for near 1g protein to 1lb body weight per day.

If you want to read up on it - read Dr John Jaquish’s book “Weight Lifting is a Waste of Time”. Excellently cited book full of facts and it will open your eyes.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Brules said:


> This right here. Drop carbs and sugars to below 50g a day or less (20-40 is my range). Working out 5-6 days a week and carb/sugar restrictions will work wonders. If you can eliminate completely- but that’s hard to do!!! Throw in 16/8 fasting and you’ll shed pounds. Eat proteins and veggies and don’t count calories or anything. It works and you aren’t starving yourself. Try to aim for near 1g protein to 1lb body weight per day.
> 
> If you want to read up on it - read Dr John Jaquish’s book “Weight Lifting is a Waste of Time”. Excellently cited book full of facts and it will open your eyes.


You're really suggesting I eat 200 gms of protein daily?

This ^ is whacked, and that's my medical opinion  

If I was younger and an avid body builder, then it would make sense, but none of us fall into that category.

The actual recommendations are much lower: The Daily Reference Intake for protein, as established by the Institute of Medicine, is 0.8 grams of protein for every kilogram -- roughly 2.2 pounds -- of body weight. The 56 grams per day figure for men is based on a presumed body weight of 150 pounds.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

For an athlete. 0.8-1gr per lb of of body weight is good. As we get older athletes need more than when younger as well. If you're 15% bodyfat. Don't count the extra pounds


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

Over 95% is BS.
A lot of riders and in other activites are wannabe.
A human is designed to move but come millions of $$ in publicity and Gatorade you must have to avoid being in the ER.
Crap. Baloney.
Roll 3 years later U need the Pre-Miracle Solution 

The Activity Miracle Solution
The Post Activity/Recovery Miracle Solution.
U wannabe a winner
U wannabe an athlete
SEND US TONS OF $$$$
What about watches for dummies $$$$$
What about GPS $$$$$
Like it or not you have been conned.
Poor people do not waste $$$
they work 12 hrs daily in the field
guess what, they eat rice and veggies and beans and lentils
NO pre work
NO post work
NO BS.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

Brules said:


> This right here. Drop carbs and sugars to below 50g a day or less (20-40 is my range). Working out 5-6 days a week and carb/sugar restrictions will work wonders. If you can eliminate completely- but that’s hard to do!!! Throw in 16/8 fasting and you’ll shed pounds. Eat proteins and veggies and don’t count calories or anything. It works and you aren’t starving yourself. Try to aim for near 1g protein to 1lb body weight per day.
> 
> If you want to read up on it - read Dr John Jaquish’s book “Weight Lifting is a Waste of Time”. Excellently cited book full of facts and it will open your eyes.


Sounds similar to what we do in most ways. As noted protein might be 1 g per Kg. I’ve also seen folks confuse grams of protein with grams of foods that are mostly protein (e.g. chicken).

However I don’t buy the “weight lifting is a waste of time” idea. We just finished an hour on Zwift and weights are next. At my age (66) it’s critical to avoid sarcopenia.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> Anything under six hours can be managed using glycogen stores in the muscles.





That depends on the intensity of the effort doesn't it? 

For instance I don't think a world tour cyclist could complete a stage of the Tour de France using only glycogen stored in their body. At least I've never heard of anyone doing that.


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## cwoodffr (May 23, 2019)

Dkayak said:


> Sounds similar to what we do in most ways. As noted protein might be 1 g per Kg. I’ve also seen folks confuse grams of protein with grams of foods that are mostly protein (e.g. chicken).
> 
> However I don’t buy the “weight lifting is a waste of time” idea. We just finished an hour on Zwift and weights are next. At my age (66) it’s critical to avoid sarcopenia.


At 53 I can see muscle loss that I have not prior in areas that I am not regularly working out....so yes, agree completely.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> That depends on the intensity of the effort doesn't it?
> 
> For instance I don't think a world tour cyclist could complete a stage of the Tour de France using only glycogen stored in their body. At least I've never heard of anyone doing that.


Do you know what a straw man argument is?


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

cwoodffr said:


> At 53 I can see muscle loss that I have not prior in areas that I am not regularly working out....so yes, agree completely.


Eating more protein will not lead to a change in muscle mass unless you also work to build muscle mass through exercise.

Whether you adjust your diet to eat more protein, more fat, or more carbs, if your totally caloric intake exceeds what you're body can metabolize, you will build a different kind of mass


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm a vegetarian and when I was running ultras I didn't change my diet at all.
> 
> Anything under six hours can be managed using glycogen stores in the muscles.
> 
> ...


Consuming carbs when you've depleted your glycogen stores is essential to allow you to continue to perform adequately. It's best to start right away to try and keep your effort fueled. Ultra athletes usually have a hard time eating anything after a while, which is where the "tastes good" theory of yours I'm guessing comes in. It's sometimes very hard to get anything down at all, so any calories are good, hence eating whatever is still appealing. That doesn't mean that's the best fuel for your body at that time.

I've only ran about 50 ultras up to 100 milers, but I know when I take a gel and 5 minutes later I'm magically running and feeling good again, that is what my body needs for fuel. I have a hard time eating after maybe 8 hours or so, and sometimes it turns into a slog to finish when nothing goes down. I've read that not wanting to eat is a sign of dehydration, and that one should slow down, take the time to eat and drink as it will make up for itself over time. I just hate to sit in aid stations too long.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> Do you know what a straw man argument is?



Of course, I wasn't trying to argue though. Thanks anyway!


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

Nurse Ben said:


> You're really suggesting I eat 200 gms of protein daily?
> 
> This ^ is whacked, and that's my medical opinion
> 
> ...


Read the book then argue. He cites everything he says with tons of medical studies.


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

Here's my call. 

Don't go on a diet. Change your diet to a healthier version of you that you can sustain. Then ride. Your weight will drop off until you reach the new you that your changed diet provides. Then sustain that new you. Job done.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Brules said:


> Read the book then argue. He cites everything he says with tons of medical studies.


I'm a medical provider, I don't have to read his book, I went to school to learn what I know


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Of course, I wasn't trying to argue though. Thanks anyway!


Just giving you shite


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

plummet said:


> Don't go on a diet. *Change your diet to a healthier version of you that you can sustain.* Then ride. Your weight will drop off until you reach the new you that your changed diet provides. Then sustain that new you. Job done.


Right! In 2013 we kicked off a change with a 3-week purification program focused on fresh whole foods, mostly veggies, eliminating dairy, alcohol, caffeine, sugar, etc. After that many desserts tasted way too sweet. Then we embraced intermittent fasting, which snuffed all carb cravings. We’re not slaves to timed eating, but generally feel no urge to eat before 11 am and are typically done by 7 pm. My wife and I each dropped 10-15% of body weight, felt more alert, and have kept it off since. 

We repeat the 3-week reboot each January until this year -—no longer feel the need and we love our coffee! Since 2013 we‘ve evolved to adopt a low carb, high fat, organic, pseudo-paleo, semi-keto, whole food diet, avoiding grain oils, processed foods, and all high fructose corn syrup. Fats are healthy ones like olive oil, grass fed beef (and dairy) and eggs from local free range chickens. Proteins are wild fish and pastured meats. It doesn’t mean we don’t enjoy desserts, but when we do, it’s gotta be a great one! We enjoy coffee, wine, craft beers, and great classic cocktails in moderation. Actually it’s moderation in all things. By now this works effortlessly for us but YMMV. Find what works for your lifestyle. Diets are temporary measures.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Dkayak said:


> We enjoy coffee, wine, craft beers, and great classic cocktails in moderation. Actually it’s moderation in all things. By now this works effortlessly for us but YMMV. Find what works for your lifestyle. Diets are temporary measures.


I figure the real cave man diet, and most of human history, was eat anything you came across. However, there never was much of it available. So moderation in all things. Though the practice was forced on early man. Poor fellas.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

ZX11 said:


> I figure the real cave man diet, and most of human history, was eat anything you came across. However, there never was much of it available. So moderation in all things.


This is one of the arguments for fasting. A caveman was unsure when his next meal was coming!


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## Stanceslao (Nov 5, 2021)

numbnuts said:


> The trick is training in zones that target fat burn, not muscle,


Do you have any pointers on how to loose belly fat? I used to be 150lbs, now 145lbs after doing intermittent dieting, drinking a tablespoon ofapple cider vinegar before breakfast... and all I lose is muscle.. my belly fat still in tact. Thanks


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

plummet said:


> Here's my call.
> 
> Don't go on a diet. Change your diet to a healthier version of you that you can sustain. Then ride. Your weight will drop off until you reach the new you that your changed diet provides. Then sustain that new you. Job done.


I think this is the most reasonable and digestible advice in this thread and interestingly enough, my wife and I had this conversation the other night and have already implemented a lot of changes. I already feel better and am sleeping better and have already dropped a couple pounds.

I have structured my workouts (for now) around calories burned. The weight in 6 weeks will be what it will be and then I will target my training towards this race the end of April. I'm confident after reading all the words of this thread that the changes we've implemented will result in continued weight loss until I get to a comfortable race weight and then I can up the calories to flatten the curve.

The sustainability thing has always been the trick, so we made choices that we're pretty confident are those we can live with long term.

Thanks to all that contributed. It stayed mostly civil. 😆


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

jrob300 said:


> I think this is the most reasonable and digestible advice in this thread and interestingly enough, my wife and I had this conversation the other night and have already implemented a lot of changes. I already feel better and am sleeping better and have already dropped a couple pounds.
> 
> I have structured my workouts (for now) around calories burned. The weight in 6 weeks will be what it will be and then I will target my training towards this race the end of April. I'm confident after reading all the words of this thread that the changes we've implemented will result in continued weight loss until I get to a comfortable race weight and then I can up the calories to flatten the curve.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are on a good path. Good luck with the race.

One thing I didn't understand about your original post was how you weren't losing weight already. I'm 6'1 and a bit, and 200-206lbs. Skinny strong from weight lifting and bike riding. I dropped down to 190lbs in two or three months when I first took up the bicycle hobby a year and a half ago. Riding was burning too many calories with 10 to 20 mile rides a few times a week. 

It was no where near as intense as your riding. So I think you should have been shedding weight fast already with those 5 or 6 long rides a week.

190-ish pounds was too thin for me so I worked on eating more and gaining weight to get back up over 200lbs.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

ZX11 said:


> Sounds like you are on a good path. Good luck with the race.
> 
> One thing I didn't understand about your original post was how you weren't losing weight already. I'm 6'1 and a bit, and 200-206lbs. Skinny strong from weight lifting and bike riding. I dropped down to 190lbs in two or three months when I first took up the bicycle hobby a year and a half ago. Riding was burning too many calories with 10 to 20 mile rides a few times a week.
> 
> ...


I have wondered the same thing. I have concluded that the body I have after many years on prednisone and biologics is not the same. Who know's what lingering changes the meds have made to me??? It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. I think I have to learn new rules. Old ways were not working.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

jrob300 said:


> So my question is: How do I calculate how many calories/day to lose weight AND do the hard work of training.


I went back to read your OP. Your final question assumes all calories have the same effect, but from what I’ve read that’s anything but true. Different foods are metabolized very differently.

But more important, I wouldn’t write off a change just because it hasn’t yet occurred. We each seem to develop metabolic “setpoints” based on lifestyle and body type. Sometimes those setpoints don't budge quickly. I’ve read repeatedly over the years that mixing up your diet can be beneficial. Some keto advocates recommend cycling in and out of keto periodically for example. I don’t recall their reasoning, but you can do your own research. So once you and your wife find your sustainable lifestyle, maybe mix it up now and then? It might help you to break out of a metabolic rut. The same is true of mixing up your exercise routines. Can’t hurt, might help, and is enjoyable too. Good luck!


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> I'm a medical provider, I don't have to read his book, I went to school to learn what I know


I was a medical provider for a time I was an associate doc in a small clinic billing nearly a million dollars a month, collecting about 600K.

I remember in grad school how one of our nutrition courses had us put together presentations and give them in class. One classmate did theirs on how milk was horrible for you. I admit, there was plenty in the presentation that made me wonder if I should stop drinking it, but when the presentation was over, there was just a big debate between milk drinkers and people that didn't drink it. We all had the same education, so education didn't mean anything in the debate.

Some people are open to information that is counter to their beliefs and some aren't. I've found in most things people pick what they want to believe and argue that despite any evidence to the contrary.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I was a medical provider for a time I was an associate doc in a small clinic billing nearly a million dollars a month, collecting about 600K.
> 
> I remember in grad school how one of our nutrition courses had us put together presentations and give them in class. One classmate did theirs on how milk was horrible for you. I admit, there was plenty in the presentation that made me wonder if I should stop drinking it, but when the presentation was over, there was just a big debate between milk drinkers and people that didn't drink it. We all had the same education, so education didn't mean anything in the debate.
> 
> Some people are open to information that is counter to their beliefs and some aren't. I've found in most things people pick what they want to believe and argue that despite any evidence to the contrary.


What does your past revenue flow have to with this thread? Honest question.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I was a medical provider for a time I was an associate doc in a small clinic billing nearly a million dollars a month, collecting about 600K.
> 
> I remember in grad school how one of our nutrition courses had us put together presentations and give them in class. One classmate did theirs on how milk was horrible for you. I admit, there was plenty in the presentation that made me wonder if I should stop drinking it, but when the presentation was over, there was just a big debate between milk drinkers and people that didn't drink it. We all had the same education, so education didn't mean anything in the debate.
> 
> Some people are open to information that is counter to their beliefs and some aren't. I've found in most things people pick what they want to believe and argue that despite any evidence to the contrary.


It’s more than just education, it’s working in the medical field, learning, and repeating over and over.

I do find it kinda fun that every few years, like clockwork, a new and better diet comes along and every one is supported by “medical research” 😆

Old people are the worst! Always looking for the fountain of youth, anything that can make them “harder longer”, gawd forbid they spent years eating like shite, didn’t take care of their health, and smoked 🤫

I wish they taught common sense in the schools, perhaps this might cure people of stoopidness 🤣


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

numbnuts said:


> What does your past revenue flow have to with this thread? Honest question.


I had the same response to the milk discussion 🤣


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

Nurse Ben said:


> It’s more than just education, it’s working in the medical field, learning, and repeating over and over.
> 
> I do find it kinda fun that every few years, like clockwork, a new and better diet comes along and every one is supported by “medical research” 😆
> 
> ...


Actually they teach the exact opposite of common sense in schools nowadays. Hence most my bike budget going to private schools and not carbon wheels.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

numbnuts said:


> does your past revenue flow have to with this thread? Honest question.


Nothing at all. Just said it to say what size clinic I was working in. The money was for the clinic... I was paid slave wages as an associate. School teachers earn what I was paid there. One reason why I drive a truck now.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> I had the same response to the milk discussion 🤣


I brought up the milk debate because I was trying to make a point I think you missed.

You and another guy had some quips with each other about a book. He suggested you read the book. You said you didn't need to, that you were a medical provider, so you had your education.

I graduated with about 60 other doctors. We all had the same education at the same school, yet on something as simple as drinking milk, those 60 doctors with their shared education were split down the middle. That's just milk... it doesn't touch on the minutiae you can get into with all the biochemistry under the heading of diet and weight loss. Imagine how much more of a debate there can be amongst educated people about diet as a whole!

An education doesn't mean much when it comes to what people select to believe as right. If you're in class and you think what they're teaching is crap, you regurgitate it for the tests and boards, and then you push your own agenda using your credentials when you get in your own clinic, at least if you happen to run your own show. If you're in class and what they are teaching jives with your beliefs, you cary that on into your practice.

Ponder for a moment the law. The law is the law, but people have their interpretations of it. A couple of guys argue, using what is known about the law as their basis, but a judge gets to rule on their arguments based on their own interpretation. If that ruling isn't good enough, it eventually gets kicked up to higher courts where a body of judges pool their understanding of the law into another ruling on the decision. Even then there might be 4 that interpret a case one way and 5 that see it another, but they're all using the same body of information they got out of their education. What does that say about the role of education in a debated topic?

If education settled anything, those of us with some of it could just throw our degrees around as if they made us superior to those without them, and all arguements would be settled with the victor being the one that had the most skins on the wall.

I have 3 degrees that give me letters behind my name. Whoop-dee-doo. Most people here think I'm an idiot. Education isn't everything.


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## cwoodffr (May 23, 2019)

Dkayak said:


> Right! In 2013 we kicked off a change with a 3-week purification program focused on fresh whole foods, mostly veggies, eliminating dairy, alcohol, caffeine, sugar, etc. After that many desserts tasted way too sweet. Then we embraced intermittent fasting, which snuffed all carb cravings. We’re not slaves to timed eating, but generally feel no urge to eat before 11 am and are typically done by 7 pm. My wife and I each dropped 10-15% of body weight, felt more alert, and have kept it off since.
> 
> We repeat the 3-week reboot each January until this year -—no longer feel the need and we love our coffee! Since 2013 we‘ve evolved to adopt a low carb, high fat, organic, pseudo-paleo, semi-keto, whole food diet, avoiding grain oils, processed foods, and all high fructose corn syrup. Fats are healthy ones like olive oil, grass fed beef (and dairy) and eggs from local free range chickens. Proteins are wild fish and pastured meats. It doesn’t mean we don’t enjoy desserts, but when we do, it’s gotta be a great one! We enjoy coffee, wine, craft beers, and great classic cocktails in moderation. Actually it’s moderation in all things. By now this works effortlessly for us but YMMV. Find what works for your lifestyle. Diets are temporary measures.


This is exactly us.....enjoy food and drink to the max but with an eye to these elements.


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I brought up the milk debate because I was trying to make a point I think you missed.
> 
> You and another guy had some quips with each other about a book. He suggested you read the book. You said you didn't need to, that you were a medical provider, so you had your education.
> 
> ...



You'd think how the human body utilizes fuel would be settled science by now lol. Losing weight should be a known factor, same with training adaptation and recovery. But covid has shown us how seemingly educated people can be so far removed from science, even doctors and nurses.

I nodded my head at your response. My wife is a veterinarian, and I know doctors that don't think she is a "real" doctor. She specializes in pain management and sports-related injuries in horses and dogs, although she is just small animal now. She knows more about biology and the immune system than I do by far. She sees the majority of the clients that come to her now as overweight, and educating the owners about it's effects can be daunting similar to a human doctor trying to tell an obese person that they are killing themselves.

Bottom line is that all of society is generally getting heavier, hopefully we all belong to a subset of the population that takes care of itself!


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## MSU Alum (Aug 8, 2009)

For me, the best strategy to drop weight is to give up alcohol and not eat after about 6PM.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

In conclusion, don’t listen to medical providers, read the best selling diet book and learn “the truth”. 

Awesome, that is some sage advice … I’m gonna get a different kind of job, something practical like bike mechanic 😊


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## MaX-D (May 13, 2020)

MSU Alum said:


> For me, the best strategy to drop weight is to give up alcohol and not eat after about 6PM.


Also, limit potatoes, pasta, and bread. Up your veggie intake.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## spaeth (May 24, 2004)

At the risk of getting hammered here I will tell you what finally worked for me. Since my first daughter was born 25 years ago I have been slowly adding weight. I am 56 and just over 6’ and hit 230. My wife and I have always eaten pretty well. Very few processed foods, lots of veggies, some meat, try and steak clear of carbs and excess sugar. I don’t drink.

Tried Keto, tried just adding miles and/or intensity, I would get drops but no real sustained weight loss. I used the Noom app a few years back. Started just before Covid hit. I go down to 187 and felt great. Yes you could track your food intake and activities yourself. I thought I would hate food logging but eventually got pretty into it since the app makes it pretty easy. One of the coolest and most uncomfortable parts is that you eventually work with a counselor and small online group to ask questions and get support. I don’t usually go for that touchy-feely crap and feel I can get through on my own dammit. The go into some of the how and why you eat which was super helpful for me.

Food is rated by a satiety index or how filling it is per calorie. Green foods are fruits & veggies, yellow foods are more like grains but also some foods such as grains, and red foods are generally fats and sugars. You ar allowed a ton of green, some yellow and pretty restrictive on the red food. Nothing is off the table you just learn to watch the amounts. I learned a ton about the small snacks that we eat and how many calories small decisions can add up to. Portion size is a big deal as well. We just don’t need the amounts of food we think or sometimes eat. You can do fasting, Keto, vegan and still use this.You can also choose the rate at which you want to lose weight to adjust theamounts allowed. I find I can lose weight better when not working out at high intensity but most of that comes from being concerned about enough fueling and over eat.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

Nurse Ben said:


> In conclusion, don’t listen to medical providers, read the best selling diet book and learn “the truth”.


If I listened to most medical providers, I’d be on statins to avoid “cholesterol poisoning”. My total runs about 240, with HDL at 105, LDL at 140, and triglycerides at 80. However, my Doctor regards my lipid profile as excellent based on ratios, despite what Big Pharma and many other Docs would have us believe about driving LDL below 100. He knows how we eat and live, and just says “Keep up your healthy lifestyle.” My wife is a Chiropractor and my Doc an Osteopath, so while they both have a lot of knowledge of the human body, they don’t always buy cookie cutter mainstream thinking. All of us are always reading and learning.

I offer this as an example of the narrow one-size-fits-all dietary advice that’s taught in med schools and especially to dietitians. Dietitians parrot the same outdated thinking like avoid saturated fats, rely on carbs instead, eat 5 times a day to keep your blood sugar level, and every calorie counts the same. All of these are widely taught, but regarded by many bad advice. It’s not “settled science” or too complex for the masses to understand. We flipped their food pyramid. We get about half of our calories from fats, minimize carbs, fast intermittently, and recognize different calories are metabolized very differently.

Coke and the junk food lobby have influenced the FDA to push the nonsense that all calories are the same, You’d be shocked by how many wholesome sounding public health groups are funded by purveyors of highly processed junk food. Their mainstream advice drives our epidemic of obesity and diabetes, which in turn drive a lot of inflammation and disease. It’s almost impossible to develop Type 2 diabetes if you fast regularly, but very likely if you slurp soda and snack constantly.

Find what works but don’t be afraid to challenge mainstream thinking. I’m 66 years old with BMI of 22, VO2 max of 45, and ride several Centuries each year. My wife is a cycling beast, stronger than most of the guys her age and usually me too. We’re on no prescription drugs either. We are of course *incredibly* blessed in many ways, but lifestyle matters too.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> In conclusion, don’t listen to medical providers, read the best selling diet book and learn “the truth”.



I'm mostly with you on that but I will say that medical service I've received over the years has been a big fail in some respects. Only one time has any doctor mentioned anything about nutrition to me.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Dietary Guidance/Weight Loss generates the longest threads out here along with bike weight, 'do you use a backpack?', and favorite bands.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> In conclusion, don’t listen to medical providers, read the best selling diet book and learn “the truth”.
> 
> Awesome, that is some sage advice … I’m gonna get a different kind of job, something practical like bike mechanic 😊


I think you're missing my point still. I haven't said ignore medical advice. I don't think anyone else has said that directly although some have hinted at it. I didn't say a diet book would trump medical advice either.

What I'm trying to illustrate is that, when it comes to diet, or most things really, people will pick what they think will work for them, and then apply proof they find that can support what they've chosen. It's not unlike poor criminal investigation that pegs a suspect as guilty from the onset, and then picks what evidence will support that claim. You should see things with an objective eye and let evidence direct you to whatever claim, guilty or innocent, a person deserves.

You have chosen what works for you. The guy that mentioned the book is happy letting the book work for him. You don't need to throw your job and education into it as if you get to tell him he's wrong. That's like a mechanical engineer telling a bike rider he's an idiot for wanting to run a 2x drivetrain. The 2x works for people that like it. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but no amount of education or degrees will change the guy's mind that his 2x is dumb. Using a job and an education to snub a person for what they've chosen is sort of like bullying.



Crankout said:


> Dietary Guidance/Weight Loss generates the longest threads out here along with bike weight, 'do you use a backpack?', and favorite bands.


Yes, this supports what I'm trying to say very well. Diet should be tacked onto the same list that includes relegion and politics, where people pick something based on what they believe, despite any evidence people that feel differently present them with.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

Dkayak said:


> Sounds similar to what we do in most ways. As noted protein might be 1 g per Kg. I’ve also seen folks confuse grams of protein with grams of foods that are mostly protein (e.g. chicken).
> 
> However I don’t buy the “weight lifting is a waste of time” idea. We just finished an hour on Zwift and weights are next. At my age (66) it’s critical to avoid sarcopenia.


I agree! If you are 50+ and don't do hard physical labor for a living, weight lifting and/or body weight workouts are so important for quality of life as we age.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

numbnuts said:


> Actually they teach the exact opposite of common sense in schools nowadays. Hence most my bike budget going to private schools and not carbon wheels.


I agree! An education doesn't mean much to me after training some new employees with masters degrees. Many can't even write a sentence with correct grammar.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

KobayashiMaru said:


> You have chosen what works for you. The guy that mentioned the book is happy letting the book work for him. You don't need to throw your job and education into it as if you get to tell him he's wrong. *That's like a mechanical engineer telling a bike rider he's an idiot for wanting to run a 2x drivetrain. * The 2x works for people that like it. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but no amount of education or degrees will change the guy's mind that his 2x is dumb.


I’m a Metallurgical Engineer. You guys are taking your lives in your hands riding carbon frames! The crack sensitivity is terrible. Small cracks or defects can cause catastrophic failure with no warning. Hope I don’t die too, ‘cause I love my carbon bikes.  Yeh I ride carbon, but realize aluminum is a fine solution for full suspension. I keep reading about how they’ve tamed its harshness on the road. One of my buddies restores and builds beautiful steel bikes (he works in an auto body shop). Ride (and eat) what works for you and enjoy It. We’re blessed to have so many options.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Humans and bears can adapt to any diet and thrive. High fat, high protein or high carb, moderate protein. Even Vegan. There are pros and cons to each and evidence points to combining both high fat and carb is unhealthy. Your genetics play a role as well to what works best for you. I know personally keto works best for me. My inflammation and lipids are great on it. On a high carb diet my blood work looks very unhealthy.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cerberus75 said:


> Humans and bears can adapt to any diet and thrive.


I think the older one gets the less true that becomes. I don't mean keto vs carbs but no 50 y/o is thriving on a Big Mac & fries diet.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

True, I also think processed food requires a huge jump in evolution to adapt to and a lot of health issues are caused by them.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm mostly with you on that but I will say that medical service I've received over the years has been a big fail in some respects. Only one time has any doctor mentioned anything about nutrition to me.


In some of my readings, I know that certain groups are trying to get docs to include dietary/nutritional advice in practice. 

I dig *Eating Well* magazine, and see some articles about this subject every now and again.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

KobayashiMaru said:


> That's like a mechanical engineer telling a bike rider he's an idiot for wanting to run a 2x drivetrain. The 2x works for people that like it. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but no amount of education or degrees will change the guy's mind that his 2x is dumb.


I so much prefer 2x, particularly on my gravel bike. I like the gear range over the 1x...


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

With animals, vets are trained in nutrition by coriculum written by feed manufacturers. There's a reason most vets recommend Science Diet and it's not really good for pets. We have the food pyramid to drive sales already.


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## Xylx (Mar 18, 2005)

I went from 215 pounds to 183 as of this morning. Took 8 months. The most important change was I quit drinking alcohol. I also limited carbs. I found a bread (Ezekiel) that has a low glycemic index and eat that for breakfast with avocado (I'm old not a millennial I swear). No lunch, just nuts. Doesn't hurt that my metabolism is artificially ramped up on Synthroid to keep my thyroid cancer away. Discovered the cancer following a bike wreck and the ensuing imaging FWIW. If you absolutely have to drink a beer on occasion there are some pretty good non-alcohol beers now, it's trendy. (Bravus, Surreal, Athletic) They are all 100 calories or under, my favorite is an IPA that's like 35 calories. Heineken's 0.0 is actually better than regular Heineken to my taste buds. But I prefer to support the craft NA beer breweries. It is pretty shocking how easier it is to get up hills even on a fat bike when you drop 30 plus pounds.


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

Stonerider said:


> I agree! An education doesn't mean much to me after training some new employees with masters degrees. Many can't even right a sentence with correct grammar.


Or spelling!


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Calories in vs. calories out isn't how it works. In fact, there's a good argument to be made that calories don't matter.

What does matter? Triggering insulin. What triggers insulin? Eating, especially foods that are high on the glycemic load index. If you want to burn fat, eat less often, and exercise in a fasted state. At a minimum, shorten your eating window to 8 hours, or cut it down to one meal a day if you really want to maximize your results. Stick with meat and vegetables. No bread, cereal, pasta, crackers, pretzels, candy, soda, fruit, or juice.

imho


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I think you're missing my point still. I haven't said ignore medical advice. I don't think anyone else has said that directly although some have hinted at it. I didn't say a diet book would trump medical advice either.
> 
> What I'm trying to illustrate is that, when it comes to diet, or most things really, people will pick what they think will work for them, and then apply proof they find that can support what they've chosen. It's not unlike poor criminal investigation that pegs a suspect as guilty from the onset, and then picks what evidence will support that claim. You should see things with an objective eye and let evidence direct you to whatever claim, guilty or innocent, a person deserves.
> 
> ...


I'm a medical professional, it's my job to assess and treat medical conditions.

As part of my job, I train, I study, and I practice evidence based medicine. I do this every day, even on my time off.

When I read or hear about a novel treatment, the first thing I do is study, then use a combination of my experience, training, and evidence based literature to decide the validity of what I heard.

I would not pick up a book that is based on secondary research, I would read the primary research.

That's ^ the difference between a professional and a layperson.

Sadly, questioning science seems to have gotten worse with the increased access to information.

If you don't trust a medical professional more than you trust yourself, you might just want to think real hard about what you're doing, cuz odds are you will be the loser in the end.

People tend to be self selective, they choose the advice they want, and they seek additional advice if they want, ultimately they act the way the want.

Show me someone who stopped drinking or smoking when their medical provider suggested they stop and I'll show you a video I took of Bigfoot 

What's really funny to me is how laypeople do some research on the internet and believe they've discovered something novel, on the internet, wahahahhaha!


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Nurse Ben said:


> Sadly, questioning science seems to have gotten worse with the increased access to information.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

_CJ said:


> View attachment 1967308


Precisely! Scientific laws are rock sold but our understanding of the science of complex systems (how all those laws interact around us) is not “settled”. Scientific knowledge continuously changes as researchers add to it. The government presents a snapshot in time and it’s often not a strong consensus either. Remember when margarine was the healthy choice? Then oops, those nasty hydrogenated oils and trans fats gotta go. Grandma knew better all along.

Beyond that, government food recommendations are strongly influenced by front groups for manufactured food companies. That’s where we get “Every Calorie Counts”. If you Google the phrase, you find loads of stuff like this: https://commonhealth.virginia.gov/documents/calorie/ECC.ppt, with both Doctors and governments actually endorsing it. The Commonwealth of Virginia offers this:










Why, golly, it’s so simple and easy! I don’t even need to give up my soda and jelly donuts! The concept is thermodynamically true, but it’s terrible health advice. *What* we eat is critical in so many ways. Beyond that, even if calories in/out balance, what’s burned on the “out” side may not all be fat!

I do respect and rely on the advice of my medical providers, but recognize there’s no consensus across every provider out there. My Doctor endorses our lifestyle and eats similarly himself. My wife is a Chiropractor, another medical provider. I trust their judgement and they’re in enthusiastic agreement. It’s all about results. Find what works for you.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

I picture medical providers putting leeches on, then calling for another if the first two didn't work. How dare you question me, they used to cry. Like my forefathers who survived such, I question experts.

On diet, I've pushed for family members, who are in the medical field, to lose weight by changing their habits. They are well out of shape and keep "crab pot"-ing me. However, when we visit the medical offices, most everyone working there is far larger than my family members. They can repair and treat problems for sure, but I'll ask them for cookie/cake recipes before asking them for diet advice.

When family members are 50lbs overweight but are the fittest person in their work center,...damn it.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

It really depends on the Dr. Some are good for just passing out prescriptions. Some know about diet and nutrition and practice what they preach. Finding a good doctor is the same as shopping for anything else. It's your responsibility.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Cerberus75 said:


> It really depends on the Dr. Some are good for just passing out prescriptions. Some know about diet and nutrition and practice what they preach. Finding a good doctor is the same as shopping for anything else. It's your responsibility.


Lets not overlook that even having a "primary doctor" or health insurance is a privilege. More and more, people are left to fend for themselves, suss things out on the internet, because they can't even afford to breath the air in a proper medical facility.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

_CJ said:


> View attachment 1967308


If you’re a scientist questioning science, that makes sense, otherwise not so much.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

So only doctors are qualified to question their doctor? Many of us would be in terrible shape if we always did what a doctor advised. They have good intentions, but there are some very poor ones out there, just as in any other profession or vocation.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

About only the qualified being allowed to question:

There was an emperor who had new clothes made. The clothes could only be seen by those qualified. The outfit used the latest science. Everyone marveled at the new clothes and didn't question what they were told. They didn't question because experts made and wore the clothes. But there was this one child,...

I don't ignore them and will still weight the opinions of experts more heavily in decisions.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

My wife is a lifelong athlete, and graduated university on a full ride athletic scholarship. In her mid 20's she hurt her knee playing softball and ended up with a partial ACL tear. In 2013 at age 50 she began to notice instability in that knee so our family doctor ordered x-rays and an MRI. She was shocked to find the cartilage was shot and the ACL was completed "gone". OK, that explains the instability. So she was referred to an orthopedic surgeon for treatment options.

When the orthopedic guy entered the room he announced what we already knew and said there's nothing he could do except offer meds for her pain. She replied clearly "I have no pain". She asked "Don't you want to examine it" and he replied no, he already knew all he needed from the MRI and X-rays. Several times he offered meds for her pain and she replied I have no pain. He said your only solution is a knee replacement, but we should use pain meds to delay that as long as possible. We explained our active lifestyle. He grew frustrated and said listen, I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but I lost my ACL too when I was younger. We're just going to need to learn to live with it. He was obese btw. He added "You might find another doctor who's willing to give you a new ligament but I'm not going to pad my pension with it", suggesting it's inappropriate. At that point my wife teared up and he grew uncomfortable, saying there's a lot of emotion in here. If you're really determined, I could refer you to Dr XYZ in Chicago. I asked what this doc might offer, and he replied, well he does a lot of cutting-edge work with cartilage transplants and other treatments. Maybe he'll have new ideas. We left in shock, her knee still not having even been examined, and took the radiological DVD with us.

We eventually managed to get in to see another orthopedic surgeon in a different practice. He's one I've known before but getting in was tough. These groups have a policies forbidding it even if you pay cash out of pocket. It appears they frown on putting one doctor in position to contradict another's conclusions. I described our situation and my old doc agreed to see her. It was a wonderful visit, unrushed, positive, and a breath of fresh air. He studied the MRI *and* thoughtfully examined her knee, concluding he thought he could help her with a new ligament. But he added that if she could get in with Dr XYZ, that's where he'd go!

So we headed to Chicago and were immediately impressed with all of the autographed photos of pro baseball and basketball players. The NBA Team Physician of the Year plaque spoke volumes. So we're waiting in the exam room and in strides Dr XYZ, standing straight as a Marine, fit and tan, trailed by a pair of Residents. He had my wife lie on the table and examined her knee for minute or so before announcing "You just need a ligament". My wife asked if he wanted to see the MRI. He replied I can look at it if you like but don't really need it. She asked "Then you'll do the ACL for me?" His confident reply was "We'll have you exercising again in 8 weeks and competing in 10-12 weeks." Competing is just his language and it was music to our ears. She asked about an eventual knee replacement and he replied she might never need one. A few weeks later we returned for his surgical day and her ACL was the 6th or 7th of the day. She was back on her bike soon, just as promised, has ridden another 20,000 miles since, and in 2018 took up mountain biking too. She is meticulous about resistance training because muscle tone contributes to her knee stability too. Life is good!

But imagine what a huge and tragic mistake it would have been *not* to challenge Dr Fireplug! All three Orthopedic Surgeons graduated from accredited universities. The first has a decent reputation locally but it appears he hasn't kept up since graduation. The second seemed quite good and was both thoughtful and empathetic. I've seen him since for a shoulder injury. The third not only continues to learn but is rapidly adding to the body of knowledge in his field. Moral of the story --- never defer to a medical provider's advice just because there's a degree on the wall. That's just the price of entry to the profession. If they don't keep learning they can offer really bad advice. There are good providers, great providers, and unfortunately a few pretty bad ones. I'm an engineer and it's the same in my profession. It's that way in any field.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Crankout said:


> Dietary Guidance/Weight Loss generates the longest threads out here along with bike weight, 'do you use a backpack?', and favorite bands.


Don’t forget wheel size..


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

stripes said:


> Don’t forget wheel size..


And electronic vs mechanical shifting. These things have no right or wrong answer.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

Dkayak said:


> Sounds similar to what we do in most ways. As noted protein might be 1 g per Kg. I’ve also seen folks confuse grams of protein with grams of foods that are mostly protein (e.g. chicken).
> 
> However I don’t buy the “weight lifting is a waste of time” idea. We just finished an hour on Zwift and weights are next. At my age (66) it’s critical to avoid sarcopenia.


Check his book out. He’s the Dr who invented osteo strong. So He knows his stuff better than ANYONE. His X3 bar is 100% legit.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Dkayak said:


> My wife is a lifelong athlete...


All very well said.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Dkayak said:


> So only doctors are qualified to question their doctor? Many of us would be in terrible shape if we always did what a doctor advised. They have good intentions, but there are some very poor ones out there, just as in any other profession or vocation.


I have walked out of doctor’s offices and gotten new ones for utter bullshit, and taken my medical records with me. 

One wanted me on synthroid, because one of my thyroid values “didn’t look right” but was within acceptable range. So yeah, agreed.


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## Stonerider (Feb 25, 2008)

The majority of doctors are just pill pushers...sad.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

Stonerider said:


> The majority of doctors are just pill pushers...sad.


Yep, but there are some good ones out there.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

100% there are a bunch of bad ones out there. I lucked out and my best friend from HS is my Dr and he’s an internist who runs the Dr bldg for the network so he knows his crap and doesn’t put up with any of my crap lol. 🤣 Has me lined out and tells my wife everything he tells me 🤣. It’s good to have a good Dr you trust though! Move around as many times as you need till you find a good one. It’s worth it!!!!!!


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

Stonerider said:


> The majority of doctors are just pill pushers...sad.


After a diagnosis, they have four tools at their disposal: 1) advice on what you should do such as icing your ankle or changing your lifestyle, 2) direct physical intervention like surgery, 3) prescription drugs, 4) referrals to specialists (who have more specialized versions of the same option). That’s it, or maybe I’m missing something?

1) Many (most?) Doctors are now salaried employees of big hospital groups. They can’t have a detailed conversation in the time allowed for an office visit. Advice must be quick and generic. Want to learn more? Here’s a pamphlet or you can look online. Like @Brules we’re blessed with a great Doctor, one with a thriving independent practice and plenty of time for us. That’s increasingly rare. Beyond the time crunch, most Americans don’t want to be told to change their lifestyles, or they lack the discipline to follow through. I see this in my own family, with self-proclaimed “foodies” who love their carbs and especially desserts. They’re obese diabetics and understand exactly why.

2) I have a great dermatologist. He’s removed a few suspicious spots on my skin, quick and effective direct physical treatment. 

3) Most patients just want a pill. Can’t you prescribe something Doc? This leads to Polypharmacy, often with more drugs added to deal with side effects. 

So focus on lifestyle to minimize your medical needs. You’ll need to educate yourself though.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Stonerider said:


> The majority of doctors are just pill pushers...sad.


Yup, pill pushers, pretty much sums it up.

My favorite kind of patient, doesn’t want pills, just wants advice 🤣

… of course they never like the advice they receive, so they don’t come in unless they’re really sick and need pills 🙄

Awesome, you must be an engineer.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

That’s why I love my Doc. He tells it like it is and goal is no pills or meds but it takes patients doing work! Most ppl don’t want to do work to get well anymore. 😢


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Brules said:


> That’s why I love my Doc. He tells it like it is and goal is no pills or meds but it takes patients doing work! Most ppl don’t want to do work to get well anymore. 😢


But then that’s the problem, most of the unhealthy people coming to primary care are unwilling to work, so the options are:

Counsel
Refuse to treat
Treat

You can always manipulate folks, tell them they have to lose a certain amount of weight before that can have knee surgery, tell them they have to be in counseling before that can be tested for anxiety, or they have to attend PT before you’ll treat pain.

Most people are unhealthy because of their past and present life choices. People get old, their bad choices come to collect, and they want a do over.

It’s not that people nowadays have more reluctance to change, people have always been reluctant to change habits. The problem is increased access to health care and an increase in advertising that pushes folks to seek care.

My wife sees a lot of what she calls the “worried well” …. you can probably figure out what that means.

As a psych provider I see a mix of acute issues and chronic mental health issues, the acute issues are usually situational, then the chronic mental health is folks with long term issues, and then I get some new onset. I’d say the vast majority of people I see could improve substantially if they were willing to change habits.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Interesting what it takes to get people to change their habits. Never one thing but a stack of things until they tip into a new path, I figure. That is how I got back into strength training. 

Me tricking family to change their diet.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

ZX11 said:


> Interesting what it takes to get people to change their habits. Never one thing but a stack of things until they tip into a new path, I figure. That is how I got back into strength training.
> 
> Me tricking family to change their diet.
> View attachment 1967799


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

My co worker told me that dogs won't eat tomatoes. Obviously he's never had a Labrador. If you want to know what parts of the world are edible, follow a lab around.


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## old_er (Dec 27, 2020)

nOOky said:


> My co worker told me that dogs won't eat tomatoes. Obviously he's never had a Labrador. If you want to know what parts of the world are edible, follow a lab around.


Alaskan Malamutes fall into that category too. Mine loves carrots, bell peppers, raspberries, blueberries, pineapple, apples, oranges, and more. Sometimes dirt, sticks, and roots get tested too.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

My Brittany ate all sorts of foods, more than many spoiled kids in fact. Did you see the older Shepherd gobbling raw Brussels sprouts?!

Kids also learn to eat what they’re offered. Picky eaters are created. Our son always ate everything imaginable and as an adult now loves to cook. We refused to adjust the menu for him as a child, insisting each food offered be tasted each time. His cousins would only eat meat, fries, and pizza, even at Thanksgiving dinners.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Brules said:


> That’s why I love my Doc. He tells it like it is and goal is no pills or meds but it takes patients doing work! Most ppl don’t want to do work to get well anymore. 😢


I had a PT many years ago who had that philosophy, and would talk about about patients who wouldn't put in the effort on their own to improve their health. He liked me because I killed it with his scripted moves to help cure my ailing lower back. To this day I use the same exercises as needed.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

So why is it the job of a medical provider to motivate people to change habits?

This ^ is not why medical providers went to school!

If you go to the doctor, you are seeking medical care, otherwise why are you going?

It's curious how people think about their medical needs.

I'd prescribe a swift kick in the arse to many of my patients, but I would get bad patient surveys


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> So why is it the job of a medical provider to motivate people to change habits?
> 
> This ^ is not why medical providers went to school!
> 
> ...





So if a patient goes to a cardiologist with an ailing heart and quitting smoking or improving their diet would help heal it the doctor has no responsibility to suggest changing their habits? Guess that's why the system is broken.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

That’s sure not why I see my doctor. One of the wise old guys I once worked with had a lot of good sayings, one of which was “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t drown him”. Some people can’t be helped until they’re truly desperate and sometimes by then it’s too late. That‘s nobody else’s fault.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

J.B. Weld said:


> So if a patient goes to a cardiologist with an ailing heart and quitting smoking or improving their diet would help heal it the doctor has no responsibility to suggest changing their habits? Guess that's why the system is broken.


Sure, suggest it and do so with urgency. But if they don’t comply, you’ve done your part. You can lead a horse to water . . .


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> So if a patient goes to a cardiologist with an ailing heart and quitting smoking or improving their diet would help heal it the doctor has no responsibility to suggest changing their habits? Guess that's why the system is broken.


Think about what your suggesting.

Do people already know that smoking and poor diet are a problem before they see the cardiologist? YES

How many times does a person hear that smoking is bad for them? MANY., MANY, MANY TIMES

You're suggesting that a patient's personal responsibility be the responsibility of the medical provider.

This ^ is the problem with the system and I'd say that this is the problem with Western society.

Treating people for lifestyle related illness is the greatest proportion of our medical expenditures.

Telling people to change habits DOES NOT WORK.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Nurse Ben said:


> But then that’s the problem, most of the unhealthy people coming to primary care are unwilling to work, so the options are:
> 
> Counsel
> Refuse to treat
> ...


If you could magically give those people a fresh body to begin with anew, they would treat the new body the exact same as the old body.

Humans are interesting creatures. This isn't the 18th century, everyone knows what's bad for them. 

Should probably pass out free smokes/ booze/ meth/ Covid to your patients. It would be the same result and you'd get better reviews.


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm not reading thru 7 pages of this and I'm not saying I know anything about "race fitness" but when I get serious and cut out carbs & sugars (which means alcohol, Pepsi, Mexican food and pizza for me), I lose 4-5 lbs in a week. My energy level usually goes down on days 3-10 and I can feel it on the bike for sure but after day 10, I actually have increased energy. After the 1st two weeks, my weight loss drops off to 2-3lbs a week. Once again, admittedly, I'm not training for anything as my strengths lie in riding chunk/tech up and down vs getting anywhere fast.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> Think about what your suggesting.
> 
> Do people already know that smoking and poor diet are a problem before they see the cardiologist? YES
> 
> ...




True that most everyone knows the hazards of smoking now but 70 years ago they didn't and I'd wager that lots of doctors back then didn't suggest that their patients stop even though they were aware of the dangers.

Also I bet most people who think they're eating a reasonably healthy diet probably aren't. In my opinion a good doctor should ask about the patients diet and prescribe recommend changes just like they prescribe medicine. Of course the patient could well ignore the advice but it's still their job (or should be imo) to inform them and they shouldn't assume that people realize the importance of diet, and what a good diet is to all things health related. I doubt most people do.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> True that most everyone knows the hazards of smoking now but 70 years ago they didn't and I'd wager that lots of doctors back then didn't suggest that their patients stop even though they were aware of the dangers.
> 
> Also I bet most people who think they're eating a reasonably healthy diet probably aren't. In my opinion a good doctor should ask about the patients diet and prescribe recommend changes just like they prescribe medicine. Of course the patient could well ignore the advice but it's still their job (or should be imo) to inform them and they shouldn't assume that people realize the importance of diet, and what a good diet is to all things health related. I doubt most people do.


I always ask about and counsel patients on good health practices, it's kinda my thing, but it's rare that someone makes a change.

In my experience, having worked with hundreds of medial providers, it is common practice to talk with patients about making lifestyle changes. Hospital discharge and out patient after care paperwork include that information automatically.

So again, it's not that this information is inaccessible or not provided, it's about taking personal responsibility.

Can you imagine if medical insurance refused to cover lifestyle related health care without there being a penalty?

There are a few instances of this practice, such as having a higher insurance cost for smokers and incentive programs for people who show they can change by losing weight, improving labs, etc.

So the bigger questions that come to my mind are how would will we triage health care when the costs exceed our ability as a society to pay?

Examples:
Would you withhold diabetes, hypertension, or metabolic (lipds, thyroid)) care to people with a BMI Over 30? This is the biggest care population that primary care sees.
Would you limit the number of prescriptions? This is already being done with public insurance.
Would you put a time limit on treatments like dialysis? The UK has already done this.
Would you refuse to provide joint replacement unless the patient loses X# of pounds? This is becoming more common.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

nOOky said:


> My co worker told me that dogs won't eat tomatoes. Obviously he's never had a Labrador. If you want to know what parts of the world are edible, follow a lab around.


Head of stone. Heart of gold. Stomach of iron.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

Nurse Ben said:


> Would you withhold diabetes care to people with a BMI Over 30?
> Would you limit the number of prescriptions? This is already being done with public insurance.
> Would you put a time limit on treatments like dialysis? The UK has already done this.
> Would you refuse to provide joint replacement unless the patient loses X# of pounds? This is becoming more common.


Would you refuse to treat injuries from sports that are known to be risky? Skiing or MTB anybody? Would you refuse to treat emotional illness in those who don’t? Would you trust the government to decide how you should live? Slippery slope.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> So again, it's not that this information is inaccessible or not provided, it's about taking personal responsibility.



My point is that the information is rarely provided. In my own experience anyway.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Dkayak said:


> Would you refuse to treat injuries from sports that are known to be risky? Skiing or MTB anybody? Would you refuse to treat emotional illness in those who don’t? Would you trust the government to decide how you should live? Slippery slope.


It's not about refusing to treat, but insurance refusing to pay.

This ^ is a very different scenario, but likely up and coming.

The UK limiting dialysis is essentially a death sentence because you can't make kidneys work once they're done and there's no treatments other than dialysis or kidney transplant.

What's the number one cause of kidney failure?


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

Nurse Ben said:


> It's not about refusing to treat, but insurance refusing to pay.


Well I'm on Medicare, so I don't foresee a refusal to pay for mountain biking injuries. How much could they save with that!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Dkayak said:


> Well I'm on Medicare, so I don't foresee a refusal to pay for mountain biking injuries. How much could they save with that!


Actually, being on a Medicare may not be to your advantage ... so don't crash or blame it on the cat


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

I’ve found it to be outstanding insurance, but try to avoid crashing for the obvious reasons. It’s simply better to be healthy and uninsured than to be heavily insured. Before Medicare we always chose the highest possible deductible plan, supplemented by an HSA.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> people with a BMI Over 30? This is the biggest care population that primary care sees.


BMI is crap. At 5'10" and 190 pounds, mine is 27 putting me at "overweight". BMI guidelines say I should be between 129 and 174. Yes, I could lean up a bit from where I am now, but at 174, I'd be super lean, almost zero body fat. I had 8 percent body fat some years ago at 185... At 129, I'd look like I was in a concentration camp and wouldn't be able to pedal a bike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KobayashiMaru said:


> BMI is crap. At 5'10" and 190 pounds, mine is 27 putting me at "overweight". BMI guidelines say I should be between 129 and 174. Yes, I could lean up a bit from where I am now, but at 174, I'd be super lean, almost zero body fat.



All relative I guess. I'm 6'3" and and weigh 40 pounds less than you. At 174# I'd feel extra chunky.


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## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

KobayashiMaru said:


> BMI is crap. At 5'10" and 190 pounds, mine is 27 putting me at "overweight". BMI guidelines say I should be between 129 and 174. Yes, I could lean up a bit from where I am now, but at 174, I'd be super lean, almost zero body fat. I had 8 percent body fat some years ago at 185... At 129, I'd look like I was in a concentration camp and wouldn't be able to pedal a bike.


My BMI is just over 30. Last time I did my blood work I was fine (hopefully still am the next go-round).

I exercise regularly (yoga, MTB, rowing, weight training), and eat relatively well. Pretty sure BF% is a better measurement since BMI is total bullshit and doesn't take into account muscle mass. 

Could I lose weight? Sure, and I'm working on it, but it's not something that's going to get fixed overnight, and my reactive hypoglycemia adds a complexity that a lot of people can't figure out how to work with it. It's slow going, but I'm not going to starve myself or give up weight training to lose body fat, but I'll get there.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm 6'3" and and weigh 40 pounds less than you.


Dang dude. I'd be telling you to eat some cheeseburgers.

I remember one summer in college I walked behind a mower from sun up to sun down in the Texas heat and lost down to 150 from 180. People I knew were very concerned for me when they hadn't seen me in a while, and even people that didn't know me were asking if I was sick with some disease.

Is it against the rules to post nude pics here? Not like real nudes... just a pic of me from the side... I just happen to not have underwear on. Some of my non riding friends wanted to see if my legs were massive from all the riding I had done, so I snapped a selfie in the mirror. You can't see anything at all because my leg is bent, but thought I'd ask.

I don't think I'm "overweight", but somebody at 6'4" at 145 would seem underweight to me.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

KobayashiMaru said:


> BMI is crap. At 5'10" and 190 pounds, mine is 27 putting me at "overweight". BMI guidelines say I should be between 129 and 174. Yes, I could lean up a bit from where I am now, but at 174, I'd be super lean, almost zero body fat. I had 8 percent body fat some years ago at 185... At 129, I'd look like I was in a concentration camp and wouldn't be able to pedal a bike.


All relative. You can be made of fat and 150lbs. Or lean muscle at 185lbs. Do the BMI tests account for that? 

I was 130lbs and 6'1" in college. Too thin and military said I was on the border for their minimum weight limit. Running and doing stuff wasn't an issue. Spent my whole life trying to get weight on. Weight lifting was my only way to succeed at it. Skinny strong but never got to be as bulky as I wanted. Still fighting it.

I was 206lbs last month. I am 200lbs this month. I'm trying to get to 210lbs. Maybe more protein needed.

Three times I have got onto the fitness hobby for a year or so,...then quit. This is the first time I got into it and included aerobic fitness (stretching, and biking). I wonder about what it takes to change habits. Discovering the fun of bike riding is one of the many little things that tipped me back into the fitness hobby this time. Riding changed my habits.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

KobayashiMaru said:


> Dang dude. I'd be telling you to eat some cheeseburgers.
> 
> I remember one summer in college I walked behind a mower from sun up to sun down in the Texas heat and lost down to 150 from 180. People I knew were very concerned for me when they hadn't seen me in a while, and even people that didn't know me were asking if I was sick with some disease.
> 
> ...


No body posts. As in no show my body selfies. That always looks cringe.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

ZX11 said:


> That always looks cringe.


Eh... I spent years in pursuit of bodybuilding greatness. My friends and I would strip down to underwear and have pose offs against each other. The male physique doesn't scare me.

I'm sure some would think it odd to see dudes posting pictures of their physiques, but I always find it interesting to see what kind of body style is doing all the bike stuff when I'm riding in groups. Little, wiry guys that look like they could break in half if they fell down with quads no bigger around than their forearms can put down some serious power, and dudes like me that look like I work out a lot... people always assume I'm fast at running and cycling just based on appearance, but I'm not all that awesome.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KobayashiMaru said:


> Dang dude. I'd be telling you to eat some cheeseburgers.




No cheeseburgers but I consume a $hit ton of calories, probably more than you do. I feel great and have no desire to gain or lose any weight. 

Posting nude pics of ourselves is a fantastic idea, You first,


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

ZX11 said:


> I was 130lbs and 6'1" in college.


That was me! My waist was no more than 30” IIRC. There was nothing I could eat or do to gain weight back then.

Now at 66 my weight “setpoint” seems to be 175 lb. Anything greater becomes belly fat, despite resistance training. I wear 34” pants with room to spare. Cycling is our primary recreation and I’m plenty strong despite my chicken legs. Guess I just have a small frame. We’re each built differently.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Preventative medicine or advice is worthy but perhaps not profitable.

However, just get the damn jab! If not, not need to go seeking medical support when needed due to the lack of trust in medicine.


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## malucky (Mar 7, 2015)

I have to say after skimming through the 8 pages that not all doctors and recommendations are crap.

I gained 7-10 pounds upper body mass this year (most of it in shoulders/chest/arms) from a workout/lifestyle/diet change. For what it's worth my riding also improved from it all.

Durning my annual checkup, my family doctor noted the weight/measurements change, and said that because I was active, and it wasn't belly/bodyfat gain, that it was a good thing.

He also checked my blood work, suggested a few cheap grocery store supplements, congratulated me and scheduled a 1 year follow-up. Can't say I'm at all upset. If anything, I'm more motivated to push myself harder. No medications and a clean bill of health is a good thing.

Getting old doesn't mean shutting down, losing mass/getting fat. It means training smarter and disregarding internet bull-crap about fitness. A good example is the V-shred program. Take a look if you want to laugh. The problem is that too many people fall for anything shiny that is tossed their way. There's no secret to weight loss/weight gain. Hard work and a clean diet is the answer to both. Adjust calories as needed once per week if moving the wrong way.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

KobayashiMaru said:


> BMI is crap. At 5'10" and 190 pounds, mine is 27 putting me at "overweight". BMI guidelines say I should be between 129 and 174. Yes, I could lean up a bit from where I am now, but at 174, I'd be super lean, almost zero body fat. I had 8 percent body fat some years ago at 185... At 129, I'd look like I was in a concentration camp and wouldn't be able to pedal a bike.


BMI is not "crap", it's an estimate, but beyond that there are better ways to figure out your fat. *Not to mention, that wasn't the reason I posted that comment ...*

Let's all be honest with ourselves, there are few of us who couldn't benefit from some weight loss, more exercise, more stretching, and dietary changes.

Deception is in the eyes of the beholder.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

BMI is quite useful for broad population studies, where the “law of large numbers” dominates, but for individuals it’s crap. Simple concepts like waist to hip circumference tell you more than BMI. A gut hanging over the belt is a big clue somethings wrong.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Dkayak said:


> A gut hanging over the belt is a big clue somethings wrong.



Not for aspiring Sumo wrestlers.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Dkayak said:


> BMI is quite useful for broad population studies, where the “law of large numbers” dominates, but for individuals it’s crap. Simple concepts like waist to hip circumference tell you more than BMI. A gut hanging over the belt is a big clue somethings wrong.


You people, it's like "look, a squirrel!"

Did you all even look at the context within which I used BMI?

OMFG, now we're talking about BMI as if it's a thing, everyone getting all caught up in their bodies, who's buff, who's fat  .

The reason I used BMI was to illustrate how an insurance plan could choose to limit care based on a standardized index if you had lifestyle related health issues and did not change your habits.

Trust me, this is gonna be a thing.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> The reason I used BMI was to illustrate how an insurance plan could choose to limit care based on a standardized index if you had lifestyle related health issues and did not change your habits.
> 
> Trust me, this is gonna be a thing.


It is a thing. My insurance had limits on motorcycles where you had to comply with a huge list of things my work organization wanted you to wear. Including a bright safety vest. In theory, no coverage if those things weren't on and you had all the approved safety courses.

Easy enough to say you had it all on but somehow lost it in the crash. I did eventually start riding with a jacket that had built in armor for spine, elbows, and shoulders.

Surprised adult bicycle riders aren't subject to the same health coverage limits. Subject to limits, seeing as how bicycle riders seem to come apart even faster than motorcycle riders when they go down.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> No cheeseburgers but I consume a $hit ton of calories, probably more than you do. I feel great and have no desire to gain or lose any weight.
> 
> Posting nude pics of ourselves is a fantastic idea, You first,


I'm no lawyer but I think the bylaws of this forum require such pics to be first private messaged to Nurse Ben.


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## nomadsurfer (12 mo ago)

+1000 on diet. Until I changed my eating habits, I couldn't drop weight or maintain healthy weight. As soon as I dropped the white carbs and beer, within 2ish months I was down 20lbs.

I visited my Dr in 2019, and she said I needed to drop 20lbs. I am 5'10, and was 225! I'll never be 185 due to my build, but at 190-195 I'm good. So, I quit white rice, pasta, fatty meat BBQs  and incorporated brown rice, more vegetables, leaner cuts of meat, and whole grains.I wasn't biking, just doing martial arts, and I dropped 30lbs over all in 6 months, 20 in the 1st 2 months.

When the pandemic started, I was 193. The lack of activity and diet change(slackness) immediately brought me back to 215. In what seemed like no time. Now I'm eating better again, and can see the weight dropping - even without being as active as I'd like due to work/kids.

Someone told me that the key to health is 80% nutrition, and I am becoming a believer.

Beer is just too good though...


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

KobayashiMaru said:


> BMI is crap. At 5'10" and 190 pounds, mine is 27 putting me at "overweight". BMI guidelines say I should be between 129 and 174. Yes, I could lean up a bit from where I am now, but at 174, I'd be super lean, almost zero body fat. I had 8 percent body fat some years ago at 185... At 129, I'd look like I was in a concentration camp and wouldn't be able to pedal a bike.


BMI doesn't take in to account muscle mass. I've used the same body composition scale that with some accuracy and consistency measures my BF % and I'd recommend buying one to monitor your progress.

You would have to be pretty muscular, and have around a 32" waist to be 5'10" 190#s and be at a healthy fit male BF of 10%. That's not professional athlete fit or anything, but still more fit than 95% of men and certainly doing well for a middle aged man.

BTW, no one has ever gotten anywhere near 0% BF and still been alive. For one thing your entire brain and nervous system is made of fat and is part of that calculation.

A true story is that through heavy training and just the right combo of drugs and lifestyle yours truly became equal to the most ripped individuals you would have ever seen in your life in my late 30s, with a fair amount of muscle as well. And I mean that sincerely, I really got ridiculous at one point. At the time I was 5'11.5" (pre-shattered spine) and 173#s and professionally measured, and with my same scale that I use today, came in right around 6.7-7.5% BF (proving to me that my scale is very accurate). My waist was 29-30", finally recently gave away all those jeans after realizing I'll never fit in those again.

Now I'm a 50 year old 5'10", 184#s, 33" jeans, and measure 12-12.5% BF. I'd say I look fit with clothes on, soft without. But even trimming down to just 10% BF I get my obliques back and look quite slender. You would have to have a heck of a lot of muscle at 190#s to be 'fit' and around 10% BF.

I think 10-12% BF is a really good target for the average male amateur athlete.
20% BF is about right for a female and looks proportional as well but if she is more curvy up to about 22% is still in the window.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

You can't offset bad eating with any amount of exercise, but you can lose excess fat by eating well.


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## nomadsurfer (12 mo ago)

When I was 20, I was 5'10" and 175ish. Surfing, sailing, freediving, and other watersports meant I developed a swimmer's physique. As I got older, my shoulders filled out, and my friends since high school commented that at 190 I looked my best.

My family has always been more farm-boy built than lean. I would have to work out non stop, and eat air to drop below 185-190. Just not going to happen. Especially at 49.

Stats currently - 5'10" 206, 34 waist. At 190 33" waist. I was never jacked, just have broad shoulders.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Dkayak said:


> You can't offset bad eating with any amount of exercise, but you can lose excess fat by eating well.




I'd argue that at least up to a certain age you can. One of Usain Bolt's favorite pre-race meals was chicken McNuggets.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

"Smart" scale says I'm 16% body fat @ 19bmi. Is that possible?


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

"follow the science"  ....I did. Vegetarian for 13 years after my doctor told me I had issues. Result? Pushed me into a pre-diabetic state, gaining weight no matter how much I exercised, inflammation causing pain all over, depression, etc. etc. etc. Switched to a more natural diet of meat and veg, low carb, unprocessed, despite "the science", and everything has turned around. Lost weight, energy improved, no more pain/inflammation, depression gone.

On the BMI, I agree it's BS. At 5'10", I'm borderline obese according to those charts. When I was younger, and racing full time, I got down to 158 and I was very unhealthy, getting sick all the time, etc. 170 was a good "racing weight", but that was very little body fat, and not at all the top end of what would be considered healthy as the BMI charts suggest.


.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

Nurse Ben said:


> You people, it's like "look, a squirrel!"
> 
> Did you all even look at the context within which I used BMI?
> 
> ...


I stand by my assessment of BMI, one that's widely shared by health and fitness experts. It's useful for broad population studies but worthless for individuals. Expect lawsuits if insurance companies decide to misapply it to individuals.

I can hold my BMI under 25, even with a *big* spare tire of dangerous abdominal fat. Someone with a bigger frame (and without my chicken legs) of the same height and BMI of 25 can be lean and ripped. BMI is utterly meaningless as a measure of health or fitness on an individual basis.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

ZX11 said:


> I'm no lawyer but I think the bylaws of this forum require such pics to be first private messaged to Nurse Ben.


Ewwwww!


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

Body builder Dorian Yates got down to 3% body fat for the Olympia. He could barely walk because the fat pads in his heals were gone. He said anyone less than that is lying.


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## nomadsurfer (12 mo ago)

Cerberus75 said:


> He could barely walk because the fat pads in his heals were gone


Yikes! i definitely won't ever have to worry about that...


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'd argue that at least up to a certain age you can. One of Usain Bolt's favorite pre-race meals was chicken McNuggets.


Very true! I couldn’t gain weight in college. Nothing I could eat made a difference. In time that usually changes.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> "follow the science"  ....I did. Vegetarian for 13 years after my doctor told me I had issues. Result? Pushed me into a pre-diabetic state, gaining weight no matter how much I exercised, inflammation causing pain all over, depression, etc. etc. etc. Switched to a more natural diet of meat and veg, low carb, unprocessed, despite "the science", and everything has turned around. Lost weight, energy improved, no more pain/inflammation, depression gone.


I do have to wonder what your diet consisted of because there's pretty overwhelming science showing that a vegetarian diet usually produces the exact opposite effects that you experienced. Also seems odd to me that you consider a plant based diet unnatural. 

Anyway, good that you found something that works for you.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Dkayak said:


> Very true! I couldn’t gain weight in college. Nothing I could eat made a difference. In time that usually changes.



Not in my case, I'm an old man now and still can't seem to gain weight. Whether that's a curse or a blessing I don't know.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Cerberus75 said:


> Body builder Dorian Yates got down to 3% body fat for the Olympia. He could barely walk because the fat pads in his heals were gone. He said anyone less than that is lying.


I used to see a professional boxer who got delusional when he was cutting weight, funny guy.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> I do have to wonder what your diet consisted of because there's pretty overwhelming science showing that a vegetarian diet usually produces the exact opposite effects that you experienced. Also seems odd to me that you consider a plant based diet unnatural.
> 
> Anyway, good that you found something that works for you.


That's usually the first response of sceptics...."obviously, you were doing it wrong". I can assure I wasn't, and tried various tweaks over the years to "get it right". What's funny is that going full vegan is what ultimately broke me of all that non-sense. At the end of the day, if you have to eat a bunch of special stuff, often from far off exotic lands, usually processed, take supplements, etc. to "get it right", it's bullshit.

The reason vegetarian diets usually show positive results is because they're studying people who were eating absolute garbage 24/7 prior to making the switch, and there's something of a "honeymoon period" that results from cleaning up their diet, but it doesn't last. Ultimately, it's a poor diet, and that catches up with people. The vast majority of people who switch to a vegetarian or vegan diet end up reverting back to eating meat after some period of time because it's just not sustainable. The only ones who stick with it do so out of religion, or because vegetarianism/veganism becomes religion in itself for them.

For sure, a vegetarian diet is unnatural. Man didn't evolve out of eating processed soy products, or salads. We evolved out of learning to cook meat over fire, and eating it. In fact there's a growing body of evidence that human's have been de-volving ever since the switch to an agrarian society. People have gotten smaller, brains size has decreased, etc. Not to mention the increase in cancer rates that is almost certainly a result of all the pesticides and other garbage people consume these days.


.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Not in my case, I'm an old man now and still can't seem to gain weight. Whether that's a curse or a blessing I don't know.


It can be a big risk, because people with your body type often assume that whatever they are doing is good for their health, or that they're healthy because they're thin, but then out of the blue, heart attack. Everyone says, wow, never saw that coming, he was so thin!

A CAC scan can tell you a good deal about your overall state of health, and is actually the number one indicator of longevity. I was planning to get one done, but then covid hit. Still planning to get there when things get back to normal.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> That's usually the first response of sceptics...."obviously, you were doing it wrong". I can assure I wasn't, and tried various tweaks over the years to "get it right". What's funny is that going full vegan is what ultimately broke me of all that non-sense. At the end of the day, if you have to eat a bunch of special stuff, often from far off exotic lands, usually processed, take supplements, etc. to "get it right", it's bullshit.
> 
> The reason vegetarian diets usually show positive results is because they're studying people who were eating absolute garbage 24/7 prior to making the switch, and there's something of a "honeymoon period" that results from cleaning up their diet, but it doesn't last. Ultimately, it's a poor diet, and that catches up with people. The vast majority of people who switch to a vegetarian or vegan diet end up reverting back to eating meat after some period of time because it's just not sustainable. The only ones who stick with it do so out of religion, or because vegetarianism/veganism becomes religion in itself for them.
> 
> For sure, a vegetarian diet is unnatural. Man didn't evolve out of eating processed soy products, or salads. We evolved out of learning to cook meat over fire, and eating it. In fact there's a growing body of evidence that human's have been de-volving ever since the switch to an agrarian society. People have gotten smaller, brains size has decreased, etc. Not to mention the increase in cancer rates that is almost certainly a result of all the pesticides and other garbage people consume these days.




Wow! So much to unpack!

1) Vegetarian or vegan diets don't require exotic plant species, processed foods or special supplements to "get it right"

2) Double wow! Dozens of peer reviewed studies and most respected doctors completely disagree. Also millions of healthy lifelong vegans and vegetarians seem to dispute your theory about it not being sustainable. Yeah I guess it can be some sort of religion for some but of course that's not the norm.

3) Unnatural? Plants make you stupid? Is the earth flat?






_CJ said:


> It can be a big risk, because people with your body type often assume that whatever they are doing is good for their health, or that they're healthy because they're thin, but then out of the blue, heart attack. Everyone says, wow, never saw that coming, he was so thin!
> 
> A CAC scan can tell you a good deal about your overall state of health, and is actually the number one indicator of longevity. I was planning to get one done, but then covid hit. Still planning to get there when things get back to normal.



Thanks for your concern, however I don't assume that whatever I do is good for my health, in fact I know that lots of things I do aren't good for it. I'm pretty happy with my diet though. Yes a heart attack could take me out someday, heart disease is still the number 1 killer I think, but I do feel good about eating a diet that is proven to lower my risk of that and many other diseases.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Suns_PSD said:


> You would have to be pretty muscular, and have around a 32" waist to be 5'10" 190#s and be at a healthy fit male BF of 10%


This is so why I want to post a picture of myself. Seriously, if I had a set of posing trunks on, or was wearing a banana hammock, the picture wouldn't look any different... you can't see my junk at all and it's just a broad side shot of my glutes, so no butt crack or bunghole. The mirror I took it in is the most offensive thing... my pre teen girls are filthy.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> BMI is not "crap", it's an estimate, but beyond that there are better ways to figure out your fat. *Not to mention, that wasn't the reason I posted that comment ...*


It's not crap when you're talking about massive numbers of people on average that sit on their couch and never exercise, but for individual people like us, it's crap.

You mentioned it to go along with all sorts of points you were making about weight loss, or health and healthcare and medical provider's roles or whatever... I can't really remember, but when medical institutions (or individual practitioners) start using it to pigeonhole people into health classes, it gets me irritated. There is something called anatomical normalcy. Most people fall into this category. There are gobs and gobs of people with different bodies, but it doesn't make them any less healthy. I had a patient with six toes on each foot. Can't tell you how many people I've seen with extra, or too few, vertebrae. My uncle was born with only one hand but could still ride the hell out of a bike, and that was years ago with downtube shifters.

Think blood pressure. Some institution out there sets numbers based on averages of the masses. If you're a few ticks past the mark, well, sucks for you, you are now in a different class altogether. Maybe my BP runs a tick high, but I'd bet I'm orders of magnitude healthier than most of the people in their white coats that came up with those numbers. Somehow though, I get treated as a second-class citizen by some pudgy guy that couldn't ride five miles on a greenway while I can push my mountain bike nearly 40 miles and climb over 3000 feet doing it.

Medical generalities are crap when dealing with individuals that have healthy reasons behind why they're outside of the norm.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KobayashiMaru said:


> It's not crap when you're talking about massive numbers of people on average that sit on their couch and never exercise, but for individual people like us, it's crap.
> 
> You mentioned it to go along with all sorts of points you were making about weight loss, or health and healthcare and medical provider's roles or whatever... I can't really remember, but when medical institutions (or individual practitioners) start using it to pigeonhole people into health classes, it gets me irritated. There is something called anatomical normalcy. Most people fall into this category. There are gobs and gobs of people with different bodies, but it doesn't make them any less healthy. I had a patient with six toes on each foot. Can't tell you how many people I've seen with extra, or too few, vertebrae. My uncle was born with only one hand but could still ride the hell out of a bike, and that was years ago with downtube shifters.
> 
> ...




They're just jealous of your glutes.


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

In my early 20's I could run two miles in 10 minutes, max out the push ups and sit ups for the Army yearly PT test. Yet I was about 185 lbs at 6 foot and they said my BMI was too high, so they brought out the measuring tape and they measured to confirm muscularity over obesity. Good times.


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## cwoodffr (May 23, 2019)

BMI is a highly generalized measure that can't be applied to everyone IMO. I'm 53, 5' 11", wear 32 pants, weigh 187-191 depending on the activity levels, smart scale says 15-17% BF and a BMI of 26-27 that says I am "overweight". Am I? I ride hard 4-6 times a week and have resting heart rate in the high 40's....so I'm not thinly fat. One would think I could be considered at least "normal" from a body composition perspective.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Cerberus75 said:


> Body builder Dorian Yates got down to 3% body fat for the Olympia. He could barely walk because the fat pads in his heals were gone. He said anyone less than that is lying.


Those guys, along with other disciplines or professions, shred to unhealthy and unsustainable levels. Craziness.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> I do have to wonder what your diet consisted of because there's pretty overwhelming science showing that a vegetarian diet usually produces the exact opposite effects that you experienced. Also seems odd to me that you consider a plant based diet unnatural.
> 
> Anyway, good that you found something that works for you.


I was a vegetarian who worked out hard for about 5 years. Depression and inability to reach a fit weight was the primary result. I was also a bit soft. I did have a an especially relaxed HR during that period so it certainly could be a tool for controlling high BP.

Adding healthy animal/ fish based protein was the key missing ingredient to my overall health. I gained needed muscle, energy, self confidence, and general firmness when I added back in animal protein.

You have too consume way to many calories on a vegetarian diet to try and to reach the minimum amounts of all of the amino acids and even still the ratios won't be correct at all. As a result on a Vegetarian diet you either gain fat weight from excessive calories or are unable to develop fully. It can also have a very negative effect on human beings reaching their full genetically possible bone length/ height if this occurs early in life. My 9 year old has a friend that is seriously undersized and it's my opinion that it's a result of his parents requiring a strict Vegetarian diet. They sincerely due it out of the greatest love, but unfortunately they are misinformed.

No doubt that Americans eat entirely too much cheap animal protein. However 25-30% high quality protein out of your total diet should be a goal of anyone that wants to maximize their performance and lifespan.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

_CJ said:


> That's usually the first response of sceptics...."obviously, you were doing it wrong". I can assure I wasn't, and tried various tweaks over the years to "get it right". What's funny is that going full vegan is what ultimately broke me of all that non-sense. At the end of the day, if you have to eat a bunch of special stuff, often from far off exotic lands, usually processed, take supplements, etc. to "get it right", it's bullshit.
> 
> The reason vegetarian diets usually show positive results is because they're studying people who were eating absolute garbage 24/7 prior to making the switch, and there's something of a "honeymoon period" that results from cleaning up their diet, but it doesn't last. Ultimately, it's a poor diet, and that catches up with people. The vast majority of people who switch to a vegetarian or vegan diet end up reverting back to eating meat after some period of time because it's just not sustainable. The only ones who stick with it do so out of religion, or because vegetarianism/veganism becomes religion in itself for them.
> 
> For sure, a vegetarian diet is unnatural. Man didn't evolve out of eating processed soy products, or salads. We evolved out of learning to cook meat over fire, and eating it. In fact there's a growing body of evidence that human's have been de-volving ever since the switch to an agrarian society. People have gotten smaller, brains size has decreased, etc. Not to mention the increase in cancer rates that is almost certainly a result of all the pesticides and other garbage people consume these days.


The nice thing about thinking and eating like primitive humans is you won't need as much health care because you'll die younger 

All joking aside, I think you have some of your theories mixed up.

Human brain development was the result of learning to cook food which fixed proteins and increased the relative caloric content of foods.

Human brains are not shrinking, and even if they were it would take millions of years to see such a pattern. Evolution does not happen over night.

If you think society is devolving, well, in some ways your probably right, but that has more to do with political economic systems and changes in cultural values.

But the big take away that I'd encourage everyone to understand is your body does not know where a protein, carbohydrate, or fat originated. 

Think of it through a scientific lens: Two petris dishes with protein, the same amino acids, one is derived from plants, the other is derived for animals, you can't tell them apart unless you look at the ancillary products that accompany the protein in it's original form:

In the case of meat protein, that would be saturated fats and hydrogenated fats. 

In the case of the pant protein that would be fiber, vitamins and minerals, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats, and complex carbohydrates.

So yeah, a vegetarian diet is quite bad for you


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> I was a vegetarian who worked out hard for about 5 years. Depression and inability to reach a fit weight was the primary result. I was also a bit soft. I did have a an especially relaxed HR during that period so it certainly could be a tool for controlling high BP.
> 
> Adding healthy animal/ fish based protein was the key missing ingredient to my overall health. I gained needed muscle, energy, self confidence, and general firmness when I added back in animal protein.
> 
> ...




I'm not pushing a plant based diet, to each their own, but your post is full of misinformation. Dozens of accredited studies that show plant based diets can be among the healthiest available options (if not the healthiest) and done right there are pretty much zero negatives, for most people anyway.

I can appreciate that it didn't work for you but lots of elite athletes have adopted vegetarian diets with great success. I think both plant based and meat eaters can have either good or poor diets but I do think it's easier to screw up a vegetarian diet than an omnivore one because you have to think about it a little more to get proper protein amounts. Also lots of people equate vegetarian/vegan with wacky raw diets or just pig out on beyond burgers and vegan chips. Personally I have no problems getting 100g or more protein per day with no supplements (weigh 70kg) 

Also vegans don't do it for health reasons anyway.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> The nice thing about thinking and eating like primitive humans is you won't need as much health care because you'll die younger
> 
> All joking aside, I think you have some of your theories mixed up.
> 
> ...


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

ZX11 said:


> View attachment 1968540


Yeah, sometimes you gotta wonder whether it's even worth the effort ... in the greater scheme of things, people rarely change their mind esp. when it's a deep seated belief.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Nurse Ben said:


> The nice thing about thinking and eating like primitive humans is you won't need as much health care because you'll die younger
> 
> All joking aside, I think you have some of your theories mixed up.
> 
> ...


yeah, I hear that longevity joke all the time from clueless healthcare "professionals". For some reason they always seem to overlook the effects of infant mortality on those numbers. 

You're "points" are so wrong, and so outdated, I just don't even want to get into it.

Keep towing the line, and prescribing those drugs, I'm sure you'll retire comfortably.


.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

I know people who thrive on vegan diets. I had the same response as Suns did though. I also couldn't think clearly. I added fish and grass feed beef back in and everything cleared up.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yeah, sometimes you gotta wonder whether it's even worth the effort ... in the greater scheme of things, people rarely change their mind esp. when it's a deep seated belief.


It's cool. My doctor that I see once a year thinks my health is great. There is a good chance my death will be in a virtual reality porn viewing accident.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Cerberus75 said:


> I know people who thrive on vegan diets. I had the same response as Suns did though. I also couldn't think clearly. I added fish and grass feed beef back in and everything cleared up.




I smoke a lot of weed and don't generally think so clearly so that's probably why the vegan diet brain fog thing doesn't bother me.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> I smoke a lot of weed and don't generally think so clearly so that's probably why the vegan diet brain fog thing doesn't bother me.


Nah, I'm pretty sure your brain runs on glucose, not protein, so brain fog would not be a side effect of being a vegetarian.

I hear this kind of thing all the time, patient comes in and they're having some symptom, insist it's their medicine, but more than likely it's their imagination or it was present before they took the medication.

People are kinda' silly, so perhaps smoking dope helps with that


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Brain fog is usually a result of too much sugar, and/or an indicator of insulin resistance.

Keytones are the brain's preferred fuel. You can supply them by either being in ketosis, or taking in some exogenous keytones like MCT oil, etc.

.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Leonardo da Vinci was vegan and he was pretty smart. I think there might be a few other intelligent plant eaters too,


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Leonardo da Vinci was vegan and he was pretty smart. I think there might be a few other intelligent plant eaters too,


Well, he was probably in a mild state of ketosis, which is ideal, because nobody was mainlining sugar back then the way they do now.

For sure, the brain does need _some_ sugar/glucose, but the liver can make all that's required through glucogenesis....where it coverts protein into glucose.


.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Well, he was probably in a mild state of ketosis, which is ideal, because nobody was mainlining sugar back then the way they do now.
> 
> For sure, the brain does need _some_ sugar/glucose, but the liver can make all that's required through glucogenesis....where it coverts protein into glucose.



Are you suggesting that people on keto diets are smarter than vegetarians? Also vegan & vegetarian diets don't necessarily require sugar but I do think elite endurance athletes need sugar to fuel their workouts.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Are you suggesting that people on keto diets are smarter than vegetarians? Also vegan & vegetarian diets don't necessarily require sugar but I do think elite endurance athletes need sugar to fuel their workouts.


How do you define smart?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Nurse Ben said:


> How do you define smart?




Man now you're putting me on the spot. I'll get back to you after a bit of googling.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Nurse Ben said:


> Yeah, sometimes you gotta wonder whether it's even worth the effort ... in the greater scheme of things, people rarely change their mind esp. when it's a deep seated belief.


Arrrrgh. MF's.

Now I have sympathy for what you are saying.

People I know who are hugely overweight and facing medical issues from it. They are trying to lose weight and have actually lost some. I suggest some things to help such as a bit of strength training, Bowflex M7 elliptical, or skipping a sugar treat. I have a whole set of weights and bench set up in the garage.

God damn if they don't retort with various comments that make them seem as they know everything about fitness. Mental gymnastics so they can keep on doing what they are doing.

Their replies are like they should be advising me. Correcting me. I just stare.


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

I firmly believe pretty much everyone knows what they would need to do to lose weight, it's mostly a matter of them having the will power to do so. There are actual medical issues that preclude people from losing weight, there are also those that prevent some from gaining any weight. Too many use it as an excuse when they don't have one.

I do not care for the attitude that people adopt that they "feel comfortable in their own skin". It is comfortable to be sedentary and eat whatever you want and have 400 calories cups of coffee with more carbs than an energy bar in them every morning, I admit. But feeling great when you are 30 years old and 50 pounds overweight doesn't mean all of that yellow fat surrounding your internal organs is good for you in the long run. 

I guess if your goal is to be kept alive in your 60's by high blood pressure drugs and a whole bunch of pills then that's great, it's a free country. Some of us would rather make lifestyle changes so we live longer, healthier happy lives. It is sad because that is attainable for most everybody, they just chose a different path.

I probably sound like an a-hole here. But I don't care. Taking care of your body is a lifelong commitment, and it usually involves work. But the reward is real.


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## 33red (Jan 5, 2016)

nOOky said:


> I firmly believe pretty much everyone knows what they would need to do to lose weight, it's mostly a matter of them having the will power to do so. There are actual medical issues that preclude people from losing weight, there are also those that prevent some from gaining any weight. Too many use it as an excuse when they don't have one.
> 
> I do not care for the attitude that people adopt that they "feel comfortable in their own skin". It is comfortable to be sedentary and eat whatever you want and have 400 calories cups of coffee with more carbs than an energy bar in them every morning, I admit. But feeling great when you are 30 years old and 50 pounds overweight doesn't mean all of that yellow fat surrounding your internal organs is good for you in the long run.
> 
> ...


In my vision this is a huge problem. For the last 40 years in many countries defecit$$$ are piling up.
We are damaging the earth.
We are damaging the economic future of childrens an unborned.
They should pay their medical bills than
it would be fair.
Covid is nothing, the economic crash and unpredictable weather = lots of innocents will die.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

My opinion differs on this statement: "I firmly believe pretty much everyone knows what they would need to do to lose weight". Seems like people really struggle here and the they are getting a lot of mixed messaging.

Don't recall if it was this thread or another weight loss thread but much of what you read even from those that are slender just doesn't jive with how I have always maintained weight, really without trying much.

The most obvious example is I constantly read/ hear others give the advise to "learn how to read labels..." which is pretty foreign to me. The reason is very simply that my wife buys & cooks the following items primarily (for example): meats (all kinds), vegetables (huge variety), fruits (mostly for our 9 year old but I'm eating an apple right now), various whole grain products, a bit of dairy (i.e. yogurt, milk...) & lots of spices, that's mostly it.

There really aren't labels to read. Of course I'll verify my peanut butter only has peanuts & salt and nothing else so I end up checking a very few ingredient labels.

Our weaknesses are we snack on dark chocolate, she drinks wine & I enjoy a bourbon, and I do enjoy a couple of tacos for lunch here and there.

Your food should just be meat, veggies & grains with a bit of fruit and dairy tossed in there. It doesn't have to be all complicated. That's it. Nothing should be in a box, or frozen, or packaged.

You shouldn't be drinking sodas, sweet tea, Koolaid, Gatorade, etc at all. Just empty calories and a really easy place to skim off several pounds a year from your caloric intake.

There are a few tricks of course that can help. I replaced the sugar in my morning expresso w/ a sugar replacement for example. Tasted terrible for a week but it now tastes totally normal. Those calories alone should equal 3#s of extra fat weight/ year that I now don't have to remove from somewhere else in my diet. I do think the sneaky calories really get people. I always look at the donuts brought in to my office longingly, but then I see all of the pot bellies surrounding me and it's then quite easy to resist. I get that to some the allure of free anything, is hard to resist as I was like that for most of my life.

GL to all those fighting the struggle.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Are you suggesting that people on keto diets are smarter than vegetarians? Also vegan & vegetarian diets don't necessarily require sugar but I do think elite endurance athletes need sugar to fuel their workouts.


Not at all, and it's totally possible to maintain a state of mild ketosis without being on a "keto diet", you can even do it on a vegetarian or vegan diet. What I am saying is that people in at least a mild state of ketosis, no matter what diet they're on, generally have better brain function, more clarity, better focus and energy, etc.

The problem with most people who are vegetarian or vegan these days is that they consume _way_ too much sugar, in the form of bread, cereal, pasta, crackers, fruits, juices, etc. which prevents them from attaining ketosis, and forces most of their systems to run on sugar/glycogen, which is for the most part sub-optimal.

Lastly, sugar isn't required to "fuel workouts", or to achieve elite level performance. It can certainly be included as part of a program, but there are world class level athletes who consume animal fats and protein almost exclusively.


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

Suns_PSD said:


> My opinion differs on this statement: "I firmly believe pretty much everyone knows what they would need to do to lose weight". Seems like people really struggle here and the they are getting a lot of mixed messaging.
> 
> Don't recall if it was this thread or another weight loss thread but much of what you read even from those that are slender just doesn't jive with how I have always maintained weight, really without trying much.
> 
> ...


I dunno, you'd almost have to be living under a rock if you've never been exposed to the ideas about lowering calories and more exercising being able to help lose weight. I admit some people are unaware of how much crap might be in everyday foods that they think are healthy (look how much sugar is in ketchup for example), but who doesn't know that a Snickers bar and a Mountain Dew is not a healthy low calorie lunch?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Lastly, sugar isn't required to "fuel workouts", or to achieve elite level performance. It can certainly be included as part of a program, but there are world class level athletes who consume animal fats and protein almost exclusively.




I'm nearly positive that no world class cyclists are on pure keto diets, they all feast on massive amounts of carbs during high intensity rides.*

As for ketosis producing better brain function that may well turn out to be true but I'm not buying it until I see some peer reviewed studies confirming that.

*maybe some ultra-endurance athletes can do it?


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## walkerwalker (Jul 17, 2020)

nOOky said:


> but who doesn't know that a Snickers bar and a Mountain Dew is not a healthy low calorie lunch?


That's why I have Reese's and Dr. Pepper for lunch instead. 

I'm one of those people that knows what I have to do, but more often then not lack the will power. Calorie deficit is a pretty simple concept. I know one major thing for me would be quit drinking beer, I'd probably drop 20 pounds in a month. But I like beer too much.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm nearly positive that no world class cyclists are on pure keto diets, they all feast on massive amounts of carbs during high intensity rides.*
> 
> As for ketosis producing better brain function that may well turn out to be true but I'm not buying it until I see some peer reviewed studies confirming that.
> 
> *maybe some ultra-endurance athletes can do it?


Again, "keto" is a diet, but most athletes enjoy the benefits of ketosis, just purely as a result of depleting their glycogen stores and metabolizing their own fat.

And, "world class athlete" is anything but the definition of healthy, or good for you. Running marathons is not good for you. Competing in the Tour de France is not good for you. Certainly there are things you can do to optimize your performance, but that doesn't mean those things are going to be good for you.

There's a growing body of evidence out there supporting a low carb lifestyle, I'm sure you can find it if you're so inclined. Benefits go far beyond athletic performance....mental health, reduced inflammation/pain, sustained/even energy, able to go long periods without eating or getting hungry, etc.

.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> And, "world class athlete" is anything but the definition of healthy, or good for you. Running marathons is not good for you. Competing in the Tour de France is not good for you. Certainly there are things you can do to optimize your performance, but that doesn't mean those things are going to be good for you.




I totally agree with all of that but you were the one who said that some world class athletes were doing it in a state of ketosis. Like you said top level athletes aren't in it for their health.

I'm sure there are a lot of benefits of keto, not disputing that.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

I think I've mentioned this. But the fat adapted athlete is getting more and more popular. This doesn't mean running pure ketosis for an event. Most train in ketosis but use some carbs during a race. It takes a while to run / ride in zone 2 for long periods of time and even longer on a high fat diet to do zone 3. In a race carbs are used during zone 3 and you don't bonk out when you run our of glucose once fat adapted.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

It’s official, I chucked simple carbohydrates, ie sugar.

It was time, I’m old enough to know better.

Not that I ate a lot of sweets, but I did eat sweets like raw sugar in my coffee, fancy pastries on the weekends, but no more.

Also ditched the “excessive” bread habit, ie eating bread by itself. Now it’s bread for a purpose (sandwich) and that is all.

I had already ditched cheese for vegan cheese, generally eat whole grains and wheat alternatives.

So yeah, people can change 👍

Of course coffee isn’t quite the treat that if once was, may need to figure out some alternative sweetener….


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

Suns_PSD said:


> The most obvious example is I constantly read/ hear others give the advise to "learn how to read labels..." which is pretty foreign to me. The reason is very simply that my wife buys & cooks the following items primarily (for example): meats (all kinds), vegetables (huge variety), fruits (mostly for our 9 year old but I'm eating an apple right now), various whole grain products, a bit of dairy (i.e. yogurt, milk...) & lots of spices, that's mostly it.
> 
> There really aren't labels to read. Of course I'll verify my peanut butter only has peanuts & salt and nothing else so I end up checking a very few ingredient labels.


My younger brother was quietly listening to a discussion like this on whole foods and labels, when he simply said “Real food doesn’t come in a box.” He’s still a farm boy at heart. So much wisdom in his observation.

That‘s so true and a fine objective *directionally* but don’t be a slave to it. Like you, we focus on whole food, scan labels on other stuff, avoid things with ingredients not found in the kitchen, and skip highly processed crap. We indulge in small quantities of sugar, minimize white carbs, and I enjoy heavy cream in my dark roast organic coffee. Moderation in all things, so enjoy your life, including your food.

Take small lifestyle steps in the right direction and reap the benefits decades later. Take steps in the wrong direction every day and pay the bill decades later. Maybe. It’s a big probability calculation with no guaranteed outcome, so whatever you do be sure to enjoy each day. We’re going fat biking in the woods this afternoon, enjoying groomed trails with a bunch of friends after a foot of fresh snow.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Cerberus75 said:


> I think I've mentioned this. But the fat adapted athlete is getting more and more popular. This doesn't mean running pure ketosis for an event. Most train in ketosis but use some carbs during a race. It takes a while to run / ride in zone 2 for long periods of time and even longer on a high fat diet to do zone 3. In a race carbs are used during zone 3 and you don't bonk out when you run our of glucose once fat adapted.


Exactly, it seems "metabolic flexibility" is the new thing, which we're probably all born with, but many of us lived off of more or less straight carbs for so long (remember the low fat and fat free craze?) that we have to re-adapt to fat burning before introducing carbs again.


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## matt4x4 (Dec 21, 2013)

Its straight carbs and its processed bad foods, junk foods, cola, hidden ingredients, marketing and labeling along with 24/7 food availability.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Serious question...Why do a lot of people recommend not drinking alcohol to lose weight? I can understand abstaining if you're downing a couple of those super-filling IPA's every day but I doubt a glass of scotch has that many calories. 
Just curious.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

upstateSC-rider said:


> I doubt a glass of scotch has that many calories.



Certainly if you are a beer drinker and kick back a sixer or a few pints most nights, especially every night, that's gobs of calories in the long run.

If you're drinking to get the buzz, liquor will get you there quicker with less calories, but most people like the actual drinking part of beer and the buzz is just a happy bonus. I mean, if it was all about the intoxication, wouldn't you then get as drunk as you want with the least amount of fuff? If we could download the buzz we wanted, would people still drink beer?

I'm sure it's the taste, process, and the ritual of beer drinking that people appreciate most out of the whole deal, and that comes with calories from ethanol as well as the other grain type carbs that fill out a beer. If you like the intoxication as much as the process, well, that's a spiral, because the volume of beer you need to drink increases as does your tolerance, which leads to more "beer" gut from all those poor calories.

I'm guessing people use the phrase "cut out alcohol" to mean curb the volume of beer or mixed drinks. Straight liquor, like bourbon up to moonshine, isn't what they mean.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

upstateSC-rider said:


> Serious question...Why do a lot of people recommend not drinking alcohol to lose weight? I can understand abstaining if you're downing a couple of those super-filling IPA's every day but I doubt a glass of scotch has that many calories.
> Just curious.


alcohol for most people means carbs/sugar, and lots of it. Rum and coke, high gravity beers, margaritas, etc. and alcohol lowers inhibitions, leading people to eat more, and more of the stuff they shouldn't be eating.

Thankfully, there are getting to be more and more low carb choices, but they do tend to have less alcohol too. Ranging from Vodka Soda, whiskey on the rocks, session or low calorie IPA's, Blue Moon Light Sky (my wife's preference), and even most domestic light lagers. Busch lite being the low cost leader of low carb beer.

.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

When I do have a beer, it’s an IPA, usually with food, maybe a 2nd if it’s a longer gathering with friends. Same for wine, accompanying food, maybe a 2nd glass. In those situations, the food is the bigger deal. This evening I’m enjoying two ounces of bourbon after dinner. My guess is @KobayashiMaru hit the nail on the head saying regularly pounding down beers or frequent heavy drinking is what causes problems. Giving up the occasional drink or two shouldn’t make much difference unless they’re sugar bombs. Some restaurant Margarita’s are incredibly sweet and often huge too.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Dkayak said:


> Same for wine, accompanying food


I forgot about wine. People _get into_ wine. At a big dinner put on by a dentist friend of the family, this guy kicked back a truly heroic amount of wine. Like 10 or more huge glasses. Plus all the food. I kept wondering if he'd pass out drunk or if his stomach would split open first but he never showed any indication he was intoxicated and he just kept packing away the food.

Drinkers who drink socially get a double whammy. Things are lubed up, the glasses come easier than they might when drinking alone, and there is lots of food to go along with it.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Yeah. It refers to beer removed from your diet because of all those calories. Easy source to eliminate.

So after two craft IPA's with neighbors. I had a few more Red Irish ales while finishing legs and doing my shoulder exercises. Surprisingly fun to work out and drink.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

It's more than just the calories. Why alcohol makes you fat-Does Drinking Alcohol Make You Gain Weight? Experts Weigh In


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> It's more than just the calories.


Well, it's a poison, so yeah... can't be too good for you. We're lucky that we have the biochemical pathway to process it, vs say... something like antifreeze which will kill you, but that doesn't mean it's good for you.

Makes you wonder about intelligent design... We've had the ability to metabolize alcohol for a very long time, if not since the start of things. Animals have it too and they can't even make alcohol. Like, here's a bunch of stuff that's bad for you, but I'll keep it from killing you instantly, I'll let it do that slowly. I'll inform you of the dangers, and then laugh as you make poor choices and ruin your health over time.

Nice.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KobayashiMaru said:


> Well, it's a poison, so yeah... can't be too good for you. We're lucky that we have the biochemical pathway to process it, vs say... something like antifreeze which will kill you, but that doesn't mean it's good for you.
> 
> Makes you wonder about intelligent design... We've had the ability to metabolize alcohol for a very long time, if not since the start of things. Animals have it too and they can't even make alcohol. Like, here's a bunch of stuff that's bad for you, but I'll keep it from killing you instantly, I'll let it do that slowly. I'll inform you of the dangers, and then laugh as you make poor choices and ruin your health over time.
> 
> Nice.




I wasn't talking about whether it's good or bad for you, I figured it's a given that it's mostly bad. Just saying that the reason it packs on fat is more than just the calories involved.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

upstateSC-rider said:


> ...Why do a lot of people recommend not drinking alcohol to lose weight?...


Take a look at the people who drink a lot of beer. They get impressive boobs and bellies.
If you don't want those, don't drink beer (often).


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> I wasn't talking about whether it's good or bad for you, I figured it's a given that it's mostly bad. Just saying that the reason it packs on fat is more than just the calories involved.


I get that alcohol makes it more difficult to diet.

I think those articles provide an excuse. Is that part of the mental gymnastics that people use to say they are eating very few calories, almost starvation numbers, but still gaining weight? Must be the beer or particular food that makes the body work without burning calories? Not that they are fooling themselves with how much they are burning and how much is going into their bellies.

Calories in and calories out. If I'm burning 3500 calories a day and taking in 2000 calories of beer and pure syrup sugar, I will loose weight.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

ZX11 said:


> Calories in and calories out. If I'm burning 3500 calories a day and taking in 2000 calories of beer and pure syrup sugar, I will loose weight.


People really need to stop saying things like this. It's been widely proven untrue by a myriad of credible institutions.









Stop counting calories - Harvard Health


Calorie counting isn't the best way to lose weight. How a person's body burns calories depends on a number of factors, including the type of food eaten, metabolism, and even the type of organisms l...




www.health.harvard.edu




.









The 7 Biggest Myths About Calories


Calorie counting for weight loss does work, but despite how simple it sounds, there are plenty of ways people get it wrong. Check out seven of the most persistent calorie counting myths — plus the facts, straight from experts.




www.everydayhealth.com













‘Calories In vs. Calories Out’ Doesn’t Work. Here’s Why


A nutritionist debunks the popular diet belief




medium.com






.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ZX11 said:


> I get that alcohol makes it more difficult to diet.
> 
> I think those articles provide an excuse.



You must not have read any of them because there's a lot more to it than just making it difficult to diet.


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

I'm guessing many people have trouble controlling the amount of alcohol they consume. Like money or bj's, the more you have the better you feel when you're drinking. I can quit after one or two, and I do. Almost every night I have a beer, usually around 8:00 when I finally sit down to relax. If I open a second beer my wife raises an eyebrow. If I open a third it's highly unusual. A while back I had 4 beers, and my wife looked at me and said "OMFG I didn't know I married an alcoholic!". I have co-workers that literally drink 6-12 beers a night or more, every night. 4 beers has me tipsy and almost out of it.

I quit for about 6 months a couple years ago. Truthfully I felt no better, I missed the calming effect at the end of the day. I also quit caffeine, and that was a *****. I still take breaks from caffeine, usually before a big race, to reset my tolerance. I get quite ornery at those times, especially during the taper.


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## Cerberus75 (Oct 20, 2015)

1200 calories from protein is different from 1200 calories from sugar. The energy to break down and conver protein to glucose requires calories to be spent. The body wants to get ride of alcohol so it will burn it first and other calories can be stored even on a reduced calorie diet.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Cerberus75 said:


> 1200 calories from protein is different from 1200 calories from sugar. The energy to break down and conver protein to glucose requires calories to be spent. The body wants to get ride of alcohol so it will burn it first and other calories can be stored even on a reduced calorie diet.


Context??? So we have solved world starvation and food shortages. That is good news.

Just give starving victims a bit of alcohol. Then the few calories they get can all go to putting on weight. Live and put on weight on an apple or a sandwich (400 calories), and a beer (300 calories), each day. 

Seeing as the alcohol gets burned first and the other calories can be stored. Fattening up the person starving. Good news. But sounds like false logic. Or, does context matter and the author, by assuming their audience is stupid, ignores context. Context like total calories consumed (alcohol and food) versus calories burned.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

nt


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ZX11 said:


> Yeah this.



I did not say this.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

nOOky said:


> I quit for about 6 months a couple years ago. Truthfully I felt no better, I missed the calming effect at the end of the day. I also quit caffeine, and that was a ***. I still take breaks from caffeine, usually before a big race, to reset my tolerance. I get quite ornery at those times, especially during the taper.


Yeah this.

I've quit alcohol for a few weeks on a lark. Something to do. I didn't noticed a difference. Maybe not as into it as I thought I was. Or it doesn't affect my health in ways I can tell.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> I did not say this.


Thanks. Fixed it. A reply to Nooky on an old reply error, I guess.


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## Calsun (May 12, 2021)

The steroids put the weight on by screwing up your body. The best fix is a keto diet using plant based sources of protein. Reducing carbs is what will enable you to lose body fat and your weight. 

Exercise is important for conditioning but it does not affect weight change in a meaningful manner. Eliminate alcohol and red meat and carbs, especially refined sugar and processed foods and you will live longer. The Mediterranean diet is one that has little meat and mostly fruit and vegetables and whole grains and nuts. 

Excellent book that covers this is "Exercised" written by Daniel Lieberman. Easy read and very well done and goes a long way toward explaining the rapid increase in obesity that accompanied a change to factory foods and industrial meat and dairy products.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

Calsun said:


> The best fix is a keto diet using plant based sources of protein. Reducing carbs is what will enable you to lose body fat and your weight. Exercise is important for conditioning but it does not affect weight change in a meaningful manner.


Are you serious?

So I just cut out carbs but keep my typical caloric intake the same? You're telling me I'll drop body fat and end up looking ripped because I got rid of carbs? Interesting. 

On top of saying that swapping macronutrients is the key to weight (and fat) loss, you also say exercise is not important? So everybody can just literally eat and sit around until they get skinny? Yeah... I think if it worked that way people would all be looking ripped.

Seriously though...

It's different for everyone. Something I've been wanting to contribute to this thread that no one has brought up yet... There is enough evidence floating around to suggest people are just programed to stay at a certain weight. You can yo-yo around it, and plenty of people do, but generally speaking, no matter what you eat, an excess or a deficit of calories, within reason at least, you'll just hover around the same weight. Even if you get serious and drop a ton or bulk up a ton of muscle, all of that takes serious effort and focus, and people don't keep it up. Eventually they even out and go right back to that normal self. Look at Oprah. She's lost the same 80-100 pounds a billion times. It's almost as if you can't outrun or undereat the deck of cards you were dealt.

I don't mean to brag by bringing this up, but I've dropped 12 pounds in 26 days. I packed on a few pounds sitting around during the holidays eating the usual mass quantities, and then I got a different job. I'm not breaking down freight a couple times a week anymore, where I was busting up 40-thousand-pound loads for 10 hours straight by hand and then driving 2500 miles a week, I'm driving about 20 miles a day and staying in constant, steady, low intensity motion outside of that. I don't have food at my fingertips while I sit behind the wheel all day. I barely have time to eat actually. I eat a massive breakfast after a short trainer ride in the garage, eat an adequate lunch, and snack a couple of times in a day if I have the time. Nuts, apples, eggs, chicken breast and thighs, bananas, squash, peas, beans or black-eyed peas, beet juice, raisins, Trisquits, a glass of milk, some honey, maybe some dry cereal. That's about it when I'm working, and I don't eat all of that in a single day either. When I get a day off, I eat whatever I feel like, and as much of it as I want. I just don't eat after 4PM and don't eat again until 5:30 in the morning. I work 12-hour shifts, usually 4 or 5 days a week, so I'm getting lots of activity.

12 pounds in 26 days.

I highly doubt if I had only gotten rid of carbs and just sat around that I would have lost that weight.


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## Gumby_rider (Apr 18, 2017)

As a kid, I grew up in a poor country where drinking was (and prob still is) a problem or is it a thing? The alcoholics I saw and knew were just as skinny, maybe even more skinnier than the general population. The chubby ones in society were those with money. I guess the law of physics about energy in vs out also works in poor country. 



ZX11 said:


> Context??? So we have solved world starvation and food shortages. That is good news.
> 
> Just give starving victims a bit of alcohol. Then the few calories they get can all go to putting on weight. Live and put on weight on an apple or a sandwich (400 calories), and a beer (300 calories), each day.
> 
> Seeing as the alcohol gets burned first and the other calories can be stored. Fattening up the person starving. Good news. But sounds like false logic. Or, does context matter and the author, by assuming their audience is stupid, ignores context. Context like total calories consumed (alcohol and food) versus calories burned.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

It's been proven, exercise has little effect on weight loss, and you can't exercise your way out of a bad diet. Most fat loss actually takes place while you're sleeping.

The red meat thing is BS. It's not going to give you cancer, or make you fat. You NEED the fats and nutrients in red meat, eggs, and bacon, etc. You should be using bacon fat (lard), butter, etc. to cook with, not processed seed oils. "Plant based protein" on the other hand is generally highly processed, not very digestible / bioavailable, it's likely to give you cancer, and it messes with your hormones.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

_CJ said:


> It's been proven, exercise has little effect on weight loss, and you can't exercise your way out of a bad diet. Most fat loss actually takes place while you're sleeping.
> 
> The red meat thing is BS. It's not going to give you cancer, or make you fat. You NEED the fats in red meat, bacon, etc. You should be using bacon fat (lard), butter, etc. to cook with, not processed seed oils. "Plant based protein" on the other hand is generally highly processed, not very digestible / bioavailable, it's likely to give you cancer, and it messes with your hormones.


Please cite sources. 

If I go on vacation and ride as much as I want, I can’t keep weight on. Eating becomes a chore. I’ll eat 5,000 calories every day for a week and lose weight. 

Now, someone who goes out for 75 minutes, riding 8 miles while pedaling at 150w? Yeah, maybe don’t eat a gigantic burrito with two IPAs afterwards.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Le Duke said:


> Please cite sources.
> 
> If I go on vacation and ride as much as I want, I can’t keep weight on. Eating becomes a chore. I’ll eat 5,000 calories every day for a week and lose weight.
> 
> ...


You can do your own research, there's plenty of info out there. This isn't a fringe theory.

.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

KobayashiMaru said:


> On top of saying that swapping macronutrients is the key to weight (and fat) loss, you also say exercise is not important? So everybody can just literally eat and sit around until they get skinny? Yeah... I think if it worked that way people would all be looking ripped.


That's what my wife did. Nothing but a change in diet, and she lost a bunch of weight. Not talking about some starvation diet, or low fat, she eats all she wants, including bacon, etc. just low carb. She's not much for exercise, so the only thing that changed was diet, and _when_ she eats. At least 12 hours fasting time, but she often does 16.

I _do_ exercise a lot, and lost a significant amount of weight with the same strategy, only changing what/when I eat, no change in exercise, and have kept it off for years now. Numerous other benefits too.

It's all about controlling your insulin response, eating foods that are low in glycemic load, keeping your stress low, and getting enough sleep. Not talking "ripped" here, just healthy. Ripped is unnatural, and generally unhealthy.


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## Jolyzara (Jan 11, 2022)

_CJ said:


> You can do your own research, there's plenty of info out there. This isn't a fringe theory.
> 
> .


I have an advanced degree in exercise physiology so have done plenty research. While you are in the "ballpark" with much of your commentary, to say exercise has little effect is way out in left field. You will be able to find lots of people saying lots of things out there (fasting exercise is the new hot thing) but none of it is science based.

Genetics is the biggest influence. Training is the next. Diet & lifestyle next. Balance is key. All are pieces of the puzzle.


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

About 15 years ago, I got interested in MTB racing. I weighed around 190. Started doing hard interval training, longer, harder rides and hill work. Had no ideas about weight loss, just wanted to get stronger and faster. I did not change anything in my diet at all. Ended up at around 162. Again, with NO change in my diet. Exercise has a huge effect on weight.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

OP here. It's been 19 days, 12 pages and -5 lbs. I dialed my workouts from 60 minutes on weekdays to 90 minutes. I have cut out most sugars, tons of processed food, almost all alcohol and we now prep our own meals from scratch. Snacks are now broccoli, cauliflower or carrots. I'm hungry a lot and this is not sustainable, but I'd like to be well under 200 lbs., 6 weeks before the race at the end of April. I've done the math and as hard as it is, it's a ton easier for me to lose weight than to raise my FTP the same percentage.

I gotta say, there is a lot of wildly conflicting data in this thread. The comment about exercise and weight loss not the least, but really??? THE way I managed my weight for 30 years was exercise. Lose a few pounds??? Dial up the intensity or hours. I ran ultras in my 30's to 40's and literally could not eat enough to stay in front of the calorie burn from training and weighed 156 lbs.

All this changed for _me_ when I went on Prednisone. The rules for me are different now and I just have to figure out what they are and am trying some things. Some from advice right here in this thread.

I want to thank you all for the advice. We definitely got off topic from time to time. Curse of internet forums and Refs who "Let 'em play" I guess.


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## FortOrdMTB (May 29, 2021)

Good work. 5 pounds in 19 days is impressive. You are likely retaining less water from reduced alcohol & salt. That’s a good thing.

keep up the good work and ignore the noise. Do what’s working!!


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

jrob300 said:


> Snacks are now broccoli, cauliflower or carrots. I'm hungry a lot and this is not sustainable


You're hungry because you're not eating enough fat. Specifically saturated fats. Smother those veggies in butter and/or cheese. And don't forget the salt. When you cut out processed foods, you need to ADD salt to your diet.

I know it sounds odd after decades of being told fat is bad, but it's not. Fat is good, and it doesn't make you fat. Sugar makes you fat.


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## jrob300 (Sep 25, 2014)

_CJ said:


> You're hungry because you're not eating enough fat. Specifically saturated fats. Smother those veggies in butter and/or cheese. And don't forget the salt. When you cut out processed foods, you need to ADD salt to your diet.
> 
> I know it sounds odd after decades of being told fat is bad, but it's not. Fat is good, and it doesn't make you fat. Sugar makes you fat.


I just heard this recently from Jess Cerra of JoJe bars. She said that part of the reason we get nauseous from eating all this carb replacement crap when we race is there is not enough fat. Never heard anyone talk about fat in a good way before


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Smother those veggies in butter and/or cheese. And don't forget the salt.



Yep, then toss them in the deep fat fryer.


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## Philco (Dec 31, 2021)

Could try PurinaMills Paylean to turn fat into muscle. Government says its safe.

I haven't bought bacon or pork in years


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

There have been, and possibly still are, people who eat nothing but whale blubber for months in the winter and their biometric health markers are way better than a typical American's. Fat (good, natural fat) absolutely is not the enemy. Cut it out too much and you'll see. Look up rabbit starvation and read a little about how messed up you can get without eating fat.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Ok that's it, I'm going on the all whale blubber diet. Deep fried whale blubber of course. With plenty of salt.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

KobayashiMaru said:


> It's different for everyone. Something I've been wanting to contribute to this thread that no one has brought up yet... There is enough evidence floating around to suggest people are just programed to stay at a certain weight.


Good on you for changing your habits and losing weight.

If programmed weight is true, then you will gain back the 12lbs to get back to the way nature programmed you. It could be true. Oprah is funny with her yo-yo habits. 

Even when Oprah lost weight, I don't think she was ever fit.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KobayashiMaru said:


> There have been, and possibly still are, people who eat nothing but whale blubber for months in the winter and their biometric health markers are way better than a typical American's. Fat (good, natural fat) absolutely is not the enemy. Cut it out too much and you'll see. Look up rabbit starvation and read a little about how messed up you can get without eating fat.



We are not Inuets






High-fat diet made Inuits healthier but shorter thanks to gene mutations, study finds | University of Oxford







www.ox.ac.uk




.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> Ok that's it, I'm going on the all whale blubber diet. Deep fried whale blubber of course. With plenty of salt.


Half the fitness gained from living on whale blubber is from the workout you get fighting whales.


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## Philco (Dec 31, 2021)

""There have been, and possibly still are, people who eat nothing but whale blubber for months in the winter and their biometric health markers are way better than a typical American's. Fat (good, natural fat) absolutely is not the enemy. ""

US got fat from Dioxins. Pollution from back when there were factories. Now Chinese eat nothing but rice and getting fat and have a obesity problem. It's why we sent all our factories over there. Heh anyone notice the Ball canning jar company got their ancient CloudSat satellite running? 95ish Gigahertz millimeter wave dual polarization "radar"..dual Klystron 4 mil power people cooker/underground bunker scanner..thing was supposed to live 22 months, launched in 2006. Think its making Russians lose weight right now cookin em near Ukraine😂

heh...maybe thats how Kim Jong Un lost all his weight? 🤣 (we really do cook people)


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

J.B. Weld said:


> We are not Inuets


Of course we aren't, but it's clearly a population that is healthy eating in a way most Americans have been led to believe is unhealthy. If it is the diet itself, or the genetic adaptations to the diet doesn't matter. One will lead to the other or ultimately to the end result.



ZX11 said:


> Half the fitness gained from living on whale blubber is from the workout you get fighting whales.


 Not exactly, but yes, that is obviously another difference. Their lifestyle and the habits they have in their daily activity greatly influence their health. I doubt they'd be in great shape and the example of health they are if they simply ate the way they do without all that hard work and toil they endure. Activity is just as important as diet.



ZX11 said:


> If programmed weight is true, then you will gain back the 12lbs to get back to the way nature programmed you.


I most likely will. I've been between 180 and 195 for 25 years, no matter what I ate, how much or how little of it, and how much or how little activity I've done. I'll get used to the workload, my metabolism will center on the food I'm able to eat, and I'll probably return to my "normal" weight. The change of the new job, workload and food intake will only be a change for a short while, and then I'll adapt.



Philco said:


> Heh anyone notice the Ball canning jar company got their ancient CloudSat satellite running?


I hope you have enough tin foil around the house. I'm sure you'll need it to fashion some hats to block those government brain wave detectors.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

KobayashiMaru said:


> Of course we aren't, but it's clearly a population that is healthy eating in a way most Americans have been led to believe is unhealthy. If it is the diet itself, or the genetic adaptations to the diet doesn't matter. One will lead to the other or ultimately to the end result.



So we can keep dying of heart disease for a few million years until we genetically adapt to feasting on whale blubber. Sounds like a plan! 🙃


The modern age of processed foods and sugars is the enemy imo. Gorging on fat isn't the answer. It worked for the Inuits because that's all they had to eat and they are genetically adapted for that diet. Plus it's f-ing cold there, need some serious fuel!


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)




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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

In the 1940s the Germans demonstrated that a surefire way to lose weight is to eat less than is necessary at your activity level.

Until someone can show an example of a fat person walking out of Belsen or Auschwitz, I'll stick to believing that weight gain is simply eating too much for your level of activity.

It's an uncomfortable truth for the deluded who want to believe in magic pills and other quackery.


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## nOOky (May 13, 2008)

I always ask people to show me pictures of an 80 year old that is morbidly obese, when confronted with the "you can be overweight and still healthy" argument. I suppose I could ask the same "show me a 60 year morbidly obese person that isn't on drugs to extend their life" and a few might sneak through.


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## FortOrdMTB (May 29, 2021)

Velobike said:


> In the 1940s the Germans demonstrated that a surefire way to lose weight is to eat less than is necessary at your activity level.
> 
> Until someone can show an example of a fat person walking out of Belsen or Auschwitz, I'll stick to believing that weight gain is simply eating too much for your level of activity.
> 
> It's an uncomfortable truth for the deluded who want to believe in magic pills and other quackery.


Damn, this got dark.


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## ddoh (Jan 11, 2017)

"There have been, and possibly still are, people who eat nothing but whale blubber for months in the winter and their biometric health markers are way better than a typical American's."

What is their average life expectancy?


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

No one knows. They either freeze to death or the whale hunt gets them by the age of 37.
But I'm sure they'd live to be 95 otherwise. I'm heading off to the store to purchase some fat trimmings as we type...

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yep, then toss them in the deep fat fryer.


I like to pan fry them in bacon fat, with garlic salt.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> So we can keep dying of heart disease for a few million years until we genetically adapt to feasting on whale blubber. Sounds like a plan! 🙃


Fat doesn't cause heart disease, sugar does, by creating inflammation which damages the arteries, and your cholesterol goes there to fix it, creating plaque or a blockage, and heart disease. And even if you don't eat cholesterol, your body will make all it needs. I learned that back in the day when "science" told us cholesterol was bad, and I went on a low cholesterol diet, only to see my numbers skyrocket because I was eating so many carbs.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

_CJ said:


> Fat doesn't cause heart disease, sugar does, by creating inflammation which damages the arteries, and your cholesterol goes there to fix it, creating plaque or a blockage, and heart disease. And even if you don't eat cholesterol, your body will make all it needs. I learned that back in the day when "science" told us cholesterol was bad, and I went on a low cholesterol diet, only to see my numbers skyrocket because I was eating so many carbs.




Yes, I've accepted your advice and have adopted the all whale blubber diet. Just 1 day in and only feel a little sick.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

_CJ said:


> Fat doesn't cause heart disease, sugar does, by creating inflammation which damages the arteries, and your cholesterol goes there to fix it, creating plaque or a blockage, and heart disease. And even if you don't eat cholesterol, your body will make all it needs. I learned that back in the day when "science" told us cholesterol was bad, and I went on a low cholesterol diet, only to see my numbers skyrocket because I was eating so many carbs.


Interesting. I thought salt messed up the arteries. That is why I started to avoid Jimmy Johns (salt) even though I like subs as a health food.

5 years ago, my cholesterol numbers were the lowest my doctor had seen. But, both the good cholesterol and the bad cholesterol were very low. No breakfast. My lunch then was always chicken nuggets or burrito supreme and a chilli cheese burrito combo. Dinner was generally some form of sandwich or chili dog smothered. She said to stick with what I was doing.

Now days the secretary just says my numbers are good without elaborating.

Likely a genetic thing as I really didn't try to get or avoid carbs. But, I didn't like sweets. I did eat bread. My total calorie intake was pretty low as I was always pretty skinny.

Now I like chicken breasts and a salad instead of my old dinners. Quick and easy to fix.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

FortOrdMTB said:


> Damn, this got dark.


Aye, sorry about that.

Just getting fed up of all the body positivity propaganda aiming at encouraging obese people to love their ugly slabs of dangling fat curves.
It's cruel to encourage obesity, and it kills people. It's done because someone profits from it and not because of concern for their long term health.
That's why I used an extreme example. There's too much delusion out there.

EDIT: I'd like to know what algorithm is used to track this site. Now I'm seeing plus size models in lingerie in the adverts to the right...


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

_CJ said:


> It's been proven, exercise has little effect on weight loss, and you can't exercise your way out of a bad diet.


That's a bit silly. When I was a messenger riding 40+ miles 5 days a week (and mtb'ing weekends)I was ripped, about 35 pounds lighter than I am these days (and I'm reasonably fit now). I also had a horrendous diet.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Velobike said:


> Aye, sorry about that.
> 
> Just getting fed up of all the body positivity propaganda aiming at encouraging obese people to love their ugly slabs of dangling fat curves.
> It's cruel to encourage obesity, and it kills people. It's done because someone profits from it and not because of concern for their long term health.
> ...


So true. It's one thing being proud of yourself and not succumbing to fat shaming and another to encourage being larger and thinking it won't have consequences.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Can somebody show me were anyone in this thread encouraged anyone to be overweight, or suggested it was healthy?


.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

upstateSC-rider said:


> So true. It's one thing being proud of yourself and not succumbing to fat shaming and another to encourage being larger and thinking it won't have consequences.


It's a tough spot to be in for the heavy folks wishing to lose weight. Some have a very hard time losing it.


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## upstateSC-rider (Dec 25, 2003)

Crankout said:


> It's a tough spot to be in for the heavy folks wishing to lose weight. Some have a very hard time losing it.


I'm the poster child for this. 
Been 'husky' my entire life, and even in when I was in the Army, at my leanest I was still considered 'stocky'...To me losing weight in my mid-50's feels somewhat unattainable.


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

I raced at 91kg for about 4 years and then thought "wonder if I could get down to 85kg and what effect that would have on my racing?".
13 weeks later I was 77kg and setting pb's all over the place.
3 years later I'm 81kg and looking to get back to 78-79kg for the upcoming race season.
Won't make it though because I found today that the season starts in 2 days instead of the 6 weeks I thought I had. Doh!


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

Laura Try (Atlantic rower)

Talking about weight control...


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

Nurse Ben said:


> I always ask about and counsel patients on good health practices, it's kinda my thing, but it's rare that someone makes a change.
> 
> In my experience, having worked with hundreds of medial providers, it is common practice to talk with patients about making lifestyle changes. Hospital discharge and out patient after care paperwork include that information automatically.
> 
> ...


You’re def right about patients not changing habits. My best friend is my primary and he always tells me I’m one of the few of hundreds and hundreds who have actually taken his medical advice and made serious life changes to try to get off meds. It’s shocking what he tells me about people facing certain death and they never reverse course. 

I don’t get it and feel for you Ben. I can’t imagine how depressing it has to be to see those ppl and know they are gonna be goners because of their inability to make easy changes.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Velobike said:


> Laura Try (Atlantic rower)
> 
> Talking about weight control...


Interesting idea/video.

7 day fast sounds like a survivor on a raft after the boat sinks kinda thing. I'll see what my doctor thinks of it. See how it affects my attempts to put on muscle mass. I'm also gonna ask him about drinking my pee (a popular "live long" diet with some people).

Quite the minefield we have to navigate with food.

Since I am happy I made it this far, some of my inheritance goes to the person that punches anyone second guessing my life at my funeral. Knocking them right out of their shoes for bonus money. "If only he went to the doctor sooner." "If only he drank more of his own pee,..." 

POW!, shoes flying everywhere.


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## KobayashiMaru (Apr 25, 2020)

I've been too busy lately to reply to this. I worked 70 hours last week.

Over that time I thought of something pretty pertinent, or at least I think it is. I taught in public school for a time, teaching science courses like Anatomy, Biology, and just general Science. At some point in one of the lower general courses when we were discussing genetics and dominant and recessive traits, in part of the discussion I mentioned that we all start off as a female in the womb. We're programed according to our blueprint to come out as a finished product as either male or female, (and in some cases there is a bit of overlap between the two!) but the fact remains we all start out as a female. Most people don't know this. Even people with a lot of education in other areas didn't learn this, but it's true. The clitoris ends up being a penis on boys, the ovaries end up inside a girl and they end up as testicles on the outside of boys, and we both have nipples, even though boys don't need to use them like a woman is made to use them. They're just remnants of our time in the womb when we started out as a female "blank", if you will. If you tell this to most people, you'll get all sorts of reactions, and most will respond with disbelief.

The next day I had almost all of the kids come in and tell me they had mentioned this to their parents and all of their parents had said I was an idiot and they didn't need to listen to me as a teacher anymore.

Don't listen to anybody who might know more than you, heavens no. Don't even allow that someone might know more than you in the first place. Just hear it and rail against it in your small town meeting places like churches or the beauty shop, drop into threads on internet forums and tell people they're absurd because you know better, spend all your time posting on facebook about how none of the science holds up... But don't take the time to look into it and see if you're just unwilling to admit you might be uninformed.

This is how diet, religion, and politics gets treated by people. They see or hear something new that might be outside of their knowledge base, they take what they know and apply it to the new idea - and almost always avoid admitting that they might not know everything - and then they ignore it or make fun of it if it doesn't seem to make sense to them. Some individuals will research it, using credible sources, to see if there is truth to it, and those people _might_ end up accepting it if they allow themselves to believe the truth they are being exposed to, but most will just denounce it if it seems to not make sense to them or if it goes against their beliefs. 

So... believe what you will about diet. Nobody will be able to change your mind, just like they can't change your mind on most things.


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## FortOrdMTB (May 29, 2021)

KobayashiMaru said:


> I've been too busy lately to reply to this. I worked 70 hours last week.
> 
> Over that time I thought of something pretty pertinent, or at least I think it is. I taught in public school for a time, teaching science courses like Anatomy, Biology, and just general Science. At some point in one of the lower general courses when we were discussing genetics and dominant and recessive traits, in part of the discussion I mentioned that we all start off as a female in the womb. We're programed according to our blueprint to come out as a finished product as either male or female, (and in some cases there is a bit of overlap between the two!) but the fact remains we all start out as a female. Most people don't know this. Even people with a lot of education in other areas didn't learn this, but it's true. The clitoris ends up being a penis on boys, the ovaries end up inside a girl and they end up as testicles on the outside of boys, and we both have nipples, even though boys don't need to use them like a woman is made to use them. They're just remnants of our time in the womb when we started out as a female "blank", if you will. If you tell this to most people, you'll get all sorts of reactions, and most will respond with disbelief.
> 
> ...


So if I’m reading this right you are all in on the 7 day fast and blubber diets? 😉


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

KobayashiMaru said:


> ...I taught in public school for a time, teaching science courses like Anatomy, Biology, and just general Science... I mentioned that we all start off as a female in the womb....


Surely with that scientific background you'd know that 5 minutes 'research' on the googlynet by former 'F' students trumps 4 years of university studying science.


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## ZX11 (Dec 24, 2020)

Velobike said:


> Surely with that scientific background you'd know that 5 minutes 'research' on the googlynet by former 'F' students trumps 4 years of university studying science.


I think the post was about Bruce Jenner's life cycle from female to male to female.


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