# Making a Double-Black Diamond trail popular?



## TunicaTrails (Jun 29, 2009)

Anyone out there maintaining double black diamond level trails? If they are popular in your area, please describe what your trail's like what you did to stoke interest.

I help run a club that is blessed with some of the most unique terrain in the Gulf South: steep hills. Because of the way the ice age receded from the Mississippi river thousands of years ago, the "bed covers" so to speak, are most wrinkled near the river here, and so the Louisiana Tunica Hills make for some very challenging rides despite changes of elevation of less than 300 feet and flatlands all around it for hundreds of miles. The piney woods of Mississippi are hilly and home to many very enjoyable trails, but nothing quite like this.

It's a blessing and a curse though because of its surroundings and the riders we have here. It's hard to both entice people to the challenge of our trails but not scare them off either. With a nickname like "The Beast," it has a reputation to uphold, but something we hear from everyone who rides it, no matter their attitude before or after is, "man, that was hard!"

This trail was built in 2003 and had fallen into disrepair in subsequent years due to lack of interest by riders and the park that houses it. Hurricane Gustav came along and gave it the business last Fall too, before our small club was formed and we began reclaiming it.

We don't want to make a beginner course and as long as everything is ridable and safe enough, we want it to continue to be the toughest trail around.

My main partner in the club is a very technically skilled mountain biker, from New Mexico originally, and can clean all the extremely tough climbs and switchbacks. I muddle along, endo sometimes, but am the type of person that enjoys a challenge, and doesn't avoid failure if it can make me better. We don't have a crop of riders like that; we have some excellent racers who are focused on "training" and some weekend warriors used to twisty singletrack and dirt jumps.

My persistence in spreading the world about the trail hasn't been unsuccessful, but I'm looking for signs that the fire is lit and will burn without me continuing to stoke it. Suggestions?


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## ownakona (Jun 2, 2009)

Look up Santos outside of Ocala, Fl. The trail crew there did more than just physical labor to make some great trails. There is a lot written about what was done. Hope that gives you some insight. Photos are always good as are videos. Got anyone that can do that at a professional level for you?


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## Megashnauzer (Nov 2, 2005)

i wish i could give you some good advice based on experience but i have none. i've been trying to promote a trail i built for the last year or so to little effect.i figure i've got my own personal trail and maybe someone will ride it occasionally. have you tried hosting an event? that brutal road race should draw people to the area.


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

*Where to compromise*

I maintain the trails at Blue Mound State Park in Wisconsin. Most of the trails in the south-central part of the state are fairly easy to ride. A lot of riders around here favor hard-tail bikes, and there are a significant number of folks on rigid single speeds.

The trails at Blue Mound are completely different than anywhere else in the area. Lots of rocks. The folks who did the original trail layout made a point of running the trail over and through the rockiest areas of the park.

As a result, there are a lot of riders who don't ride Blue Mounds much. Or at all.

I love the trails the way they are, and would prefer to keep them tight, and rocky. However, the original layout was deficient in isolated places and erosion has set in. Also, the existing trail crosses some chronically wet areas of the park.

In order to keep the trails in good condition, I have been forced to re-route in a number of places. The best place to re-route has sometimes been in less rock-filled areas. I've always tried to keep it off the fall line.

A couple of years ago, I was offered the chance to put a new loop in a previously undeveloped section of the park that had a lot fewer rocks. The local REI coop offered to contribute a chunk of cash that allowed us to rent a Ditch Witch. The new trail loop ended up with wider turns, fewer rocks, a wider tread, and followed the contour where it was practical.

The result is that the park is slowly gaining some converts among the riders who previously stayed away. Not a lot, but some people are changing their minds about it. I've continued to re-evaluate my ideas about what makes a trail interesting and challenging, and have taken a significant amount of mid-size rocks out of the trails (pried them out with a rock bar) after realizing that they were more annoying than fun even with a full suspension bike. Similarly, I have made re-routes around a number of places with extremely tight turns to improve the "flow" of the riding.

I'm never 100% sure I'm doing the right thing. I always think things over several times before making a routing change that isn't strictly for erosion control. But after two years of the current change of emphasis, I've received only a couple of minor quibbles with the work, and a lot more compliments.

My own feeling is that I'm on the right track. It's not about making things "easy" vs "hard", but more about making it well-built.

BTW, my club has an annual 12-hour race at Blue Mound which does keep it in the public eye.

Walt


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## TunicaTrails (Jun 29, 2009)

I did a bit of reading and watching about Santos in Florida. Their 30-mile network of trails on that expanse of land is _very_ impressive, as are the big dirt jumps. What's cool about black diamond trails is that each one has a very distinctive character. Even a trail built on flatlands can be tough if it's intended to be.

Santos appears to have something for everyone as their motto, and they certainly have the room for that to be possible. I'd like that, although in our situation, making trails in other areas of the parish (county) our intermediate rides is a less labor-intensive solution.

Walt, thanks for your writeup on Blue Mound. I have done a little work on our trail to convert a couple of sections from _impossible_ to _possible_. My divining rod is whether myself, my club mates, or others can clean it. If they still can't do it, something needs to change.

Making a trail section enjoyable but still difficult is a feeling I've had too, and I'm glad to hear it seconded. If we have a steep drop, we don't need a 90* turn at the bottom if we have room for a smooth runout instead.

Right now I think our trail has a problem with its length: it's only 4 miles. That four miles will peg your heart rate and feel like more than twice the distance even when compared to a challenging neighboring trail with a 10-mile loop. But the main problem with the distance right now is that our trailhead and trail end do not meet. I think we can accomplish that with the consent of the parks director this Fall.

A race is a great idea and one of our club members is already pushing that. I think we'll probably start with a time-trail race. On a trail like ours, it's safer without riders next to each other, and it is a kind of race that's simpler to organize.


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## htpride (Mar 30, 2009)

Strange dynamics...I do what I can to keep the trail I maintain/build as quiet as possible. Nice to keep the loam sacred.

But...have a race...that will punch it wide open.


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## tflounder (May 12, 2008)

Having trails that are challenging to the best riders is a great feature. What will bring more people to the area are the Beginner/Intermediate trails - trails that are not so difficult but still a bit challenging. It sounds like 3/4 of riders in your area are NOT free riding Kamakazes but rather standard XC weekend warriors. The charm of places like Santos and Alafia is that you can take your family and they have trails to ride while you venture more on the wild side. You should consider creating a beginner/Intermediate loop system to attract more timid riders. They will grow into the Advanced riders you are looking for - especially the kids!


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## SunDog (Feb 21, 2004)

B-lines and progression. They allow other riders to safely experience the trail and develop the requisite skills.

Add flowy intermediate bypasses around your B/D stunts and other hard to ride terrain along with some progression features for skill development. This will remove the limiting factor on the majority of riders...safety. Many of the XC/TB riders will become curious and begin to sample the BD features as they develop the requisite BD riding fundamentals and skills, so it important to include some progression.

We have done the reverse on our local trails to expand the BD riding oportunities and BD/DH/FR ridership. We took a popular intermediate trail and grafted some nice progressive techincal and BD terrain features as alternate (b-lines) to the main trail corridor. At first people were indifferent and even angry, but now the the trail and its BD allure are making it a popular play ground and the BD/DH/FR ridership has grown rapidly once the other riders began to see that the BD stuff was not impossible to safely master.


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## TunicaTrails (Jun 29, 2009)

So noted, and good points. I am thinking of the trail we have as a set experience, that others might go elsewhere for a different level of riding. However it is a public park, and more importantly for our intents and purposes, as you all suggested, it's the kids riding it that will grow up to be the aggro trail riders we're looking for!

There are limitations of terrain (i.e. it's hard to make it easy  ) and the amount of labor we have to dedicate to the effort, but beginner routes are something we can continue to keep as a nagging rationality. We're just to the point this year where the trail has been restored to its original state and expanded slightly beyond that. Closing the loop by extending the trail a bit more is the mission we're on for the Fall. However if done it'll be an easier section too.



tflounder said:


> Having trails that are challenging to the best riders is a great feature. What will bring more people to the area are the Beginner/Intermediate trails - trails that are not so difficult but still a bit challenging. It sounds like 3/4 of riders in your area are NOT free riding Kamakazes but rather standard XC weekend warriors. The charm of places like Santos and Alafia is that you can take your family and they have trails to ride while you venture more on the wild side. You should consider creating a beginner/Intermediate loop system to attract more timid riders. They will grow into the Advanced riders you are looking for - especially the kids!





SunDog said:


> B-lines and progression. They allow other riders to safely experience the trail and develop the requisite skills.
> 
> Add flowy intermediate bypasses around your B/D stunts and other hard to ride terrain along with some progression features for skill development. This will remove the limiting factor on the majority of riders...safety. Many of the XC/TB riders will become curious and begin to sample the BD features as they develop the requisite BD riding fundamentals and skills, so it important to include some progression.
> 
> We have done the reverse on our local trails to expand the BD riding oportunities and BD/DH/FR ridership. We took a popular intermediate trail and grafted some nice progressive techincal and BD terrain features as alternate (b-lines) to the main trail corridor. At first people were indifferent and even angry, but now the the trail and its BD allure are making it a popular play ground and the BD/DH/FR ridership has grown rapidly once the other riders began to see that the BD stuff was not impossible to safely master.


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## jimithng23 (Feb 11, 2009)

Walt Dizzy said:


> I maintain the trails at Blue Mound State Park in Wisconsin. Most of the trails in the south-central part of the state are fairly easy to ride. A lot of riders around here favor hard-tail bikes, and there are a significant number of folks on rigid single speeds.
> 
> The trails at Blue Mound are completely different than anywhere else in the area. Lots of rocks. The folks who did the original trail layout made a point of running the trail over and through the rockiest areas of the park.
> 
> ...


Walt,

I am a rider from the Quad Cities (IA & IL). A few of my fellow riders from FORC (www.qcforc.org) frequently make the 2-hour trip to Blue Mounds because of the challenge and the unique terrain. I have to be honest with you - while I'm riding the trails, especially the long, extended, ridiculously technical climb on the back side of Holy Schist, I am cursing them! But, once the ride is over, the stoke stays with the entire group for a few days!

Great work on the other side of the park with Over Lode. That trail, while it has a few nasty extended climbs, is a blast to ride. You and your crew have done a great job at Blue Mounds and you can be confident that you will continue to have visitors from our club in the future! Nice work!


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## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

jimithng23 said:


> Walt,
> 
> I am a rider from the Quad Cities (IA & IL). A few of my fellow riders from FORC (www.qcforc.org) frequently make the 2-hour trip to Blue Mounds because of the challenge and the unique terrain. I have to be honest with you - while I'm riding the trails, especially the long, extended, ridiculously technical climb on the back side of Holy Schist, I am cursing them! But, once the ride is over, the stoke stays with the entire group for a few days!
> 
> Great work on the other side of the park with Over Lode. That trail, while it has a few nasty extended climbs, is a blast to ride. You and your crew have done a great job at Blue Mounds and you can be confident that you will continue to have visitors from our club in the future! Nice work!


Not to hijack this thread, but your comment hits exactly the point I was trying to contribute. The terrain ultimately dictates how the trail is going to turn out. Tough (hilly, rocky) terrain is always going to result in a trail that is more difficult than average.

No matter how the trail is laid out, if it goes from point A to point B it's going to have to gain (or loose) the same amount of elevation. What I did wrong in Overlode was to not try hard enough to make the maximum slope shallow enough for the majority of riders to "enjoy". Going anerobic 4 times in 4 miles is too much for most riders, myself included.

You will get to see a different design goal in the new trail, Pokerville. It will have a comparable amount of vertical in the sense that from top to bottom it's ~200-300 ft. But the climbs will be stretched out so there will be fewer extreme slopes that make you feel like you want to throw up. Still plenty of grinding so the elite athletes can make me eat their dust!

Walt


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## emptybe_er (Jan 15, 2006)

The greatest asset to a trail with "extreme-obstacles" is a "chicken-out" line. The name of the trail might be intimidating but may become increasingly popular if an alternate-line exists. Opt for two (or maybe even three) lines through an "open-section" with the intermediate line being longer but easiest, then add an obstacle through the "advanced-line" with hopes that the "advanced-line" offers enough of a challenge that the rider tackling the "advanced-line" has a 50/50 chance of beating the rider choosing the "intermediate-line". In the future this will prove entertaining to all the riders.

I think the primary concern rests in the ability to predict exactly where water will flow when the rain comes. The photos of the trail cutting through meadows suggests the need to study where water collects along these lines. Getting an idea of where the water collects will dictate the contours of the line you make - maybe even the choice of materials used to build various "features".


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## TunicaTrails (Jun 29, 2009)

Good points all. I am finding discussion about other trails in the same class to be deja vu all over again. It's good to hear other people going through the same mental exercises and deliberations. Based upon my research, in part here, we've come up with a proposal for our local parks director and plan to start work on trail expansion in October:

http://tunicatrails.org/?q=node/22#comment-231


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## NastyNick (Apr 1, 2008)

You want double black diamond trails; but you also want more interest and riders...
Obviously, you can see the quandry.
We have built a double black trail, in our local trail system; and while there are optional double black diamond features along the trail; the whole trail is easily navigable by an intermediate rider wanting to explore and experience something new.
We ride long travel freeride bikes on this trail, but we mostly see XC bikes with clipless pedals riding past us. You need to make sure that there is room for riders to improve their skills, while still keeping the interest of more advanced riders. Here are some pics of our trail.









Skinnies of different heights, widths, and difficulty.



























Some features of increasing difficulty.









And then the double black diamond stuff.




































This trail was built in cooperation with the Central Oregon Trail Alliance
( www.cotamtb.com ), and the US Forest Service. Check out whats happening in the Central Oregon freeride scene on www.cofreeriders.com


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