# Sticky  Trail tools... Where do you get em?



## chadalex78 (Oct 12, 2011)

Where do you get good trail tools such as a Mcleod type rake/hoe?... Trying to get some work done aroune here!


----------



## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

I bought mine directly from Corona.
Corona Tools: Quality Garden and Landscape Tools


----------



## twright205 (Oct 2, 2011)

Ben Meadows - Forestry Supplies, Wildland Firefighting Gear and more


----------



## mtn.skratch (Oct 19, 2008)

I've been able to find what I need here:

Forestry Suppliers, Inc. 800-647-5368


----------



## GatorB (Jan 9, 2010)

Rogue Hoe: The Best Hoes for Farm and Garden

I hate stickys but this forum should have a sticky for trail supplies, tools and resources.


----------



## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

twright205 said:


> Ben Meadows - Forestry Supplies, Wildland Firefighting Gear and more


+1 for Ben Meadows


----------



## TrailYoda (Feb 23, 2009)

GatorB said:


> Rogue Hoe: The Best Hoes for Farm and Garden
> 
> I hate stickys but this forum should have a sticky for trail supplies, tools and resources.


Every tool has a purpose, and needs very by region and topography but Rogue Hoe should be your first tool. :thumbsup:


----------



## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

GatorB said:


> Rogue Hoe: The Best Hoes for Farm and Garden
> 
> I hate stickys but this forum should have a sticky for trail supplies, tools and resources.


Good idea for a sticky. PM sent to Vis.


----------



## JDM (May 2, 2008)

Same as above: order rogue hoes from the manufacturer and McLeods and fire rakes from Ben meadows. We also have a few $30 yellow handle pulaskis from home depot. They are holding up well.


----------



## twright205 (Oct 2, 2011)

ben meadows had rogue hoes on sale a month ago, I am guessing they will be back on sale soon. for me the nupla mcleod is the first necessity a bit heavier that rogue hoes but you need something out there for tamping and the curved, smaller head of the rogue, not going to do it.


----------



## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

I prefer Corona McLeod over Nupla's since the head is way, way stronger. They are also have a better balance (with the wood handle) for day-long use. I get mine either from Forestry Suppliers (on sales) or directly from the manufacturer.

Nupla pulaski w/ fiberglass handle. You can have them via Fastenal, which have store virtually everywhere.

Council fire rake are another great tool, depending on your soil conditions. From Forestry Suppliers too.

Rogue hoe, directly from the manufacturer in the States, or I sell them in Canada.

Suunto clinometer are the reference. Can be found dirty cheap on eBay sometimes, or via Ben Meadows | Forestry Suppliers |*Dendrotik 

GPS, we mostly use Garmin. The new 62 serie is more than enough for most trailwork. For more advanced stuff, Trimble is the reference.

Topo map source vary a lot by region. Locally, I use TopoNav maps at 1:20,000 based on the natural ressources ministry data. I know a lot of places in the States have free 1:50 to 1:12 maps available on the net. 

GIS software:
- ArcView is the industry reference. If you're serious, you need to learn it.
- Quantum GIS is the free (open-source) equivalent of Arc, which is awesome but a bit more advanced than what most users will actually need
- Touratech QV6 is a great intermediate package
- Garmin MapSource is the entry-level package which can be pretty useful sometimes
- Google Earth Pro is a great tool

For bike park projects, many builders now use Google Sketch-It (Pro). Very easy to use and plenty powerful to give a good VIS of the project. Serious project still use Autocad since its the industry standard for technical drawing.

Specialized trailbuilding mechanized equipement:
- Sutter (or Sweco) trail dozer
- Singletrack SK240 
- Rokon Trailbreaker is a 2WD off-road moto
- Canycom, Morooko, Kubota and Yanmar offer various size of tracked wheelbarrow up to full-on tracked transporter
- Ditch Witch (SK650, SK755), Bobcat (MT55) and Toro offer tracked tool carrier (think a walk-behind or stand-on Bobcat) that are great tool with a 6way blade or bucket attached to it
- DR Mower offer great ATV-towable brush cutter out of VT
- Helac have probably the best tilt-head for excavator on the market
- Engcon have probably the best roto-tilt head for excavator on the market


----------



## TrailYoda (Feb 23, 2009)

twright205 said:


> ben meadows had rogue hoes on sale a month ago, I am guessing they will be back on sale soon. for me the nupla mcleod is the first necessity a bit heavier that rogue hoes but you need something out there for tamping and the curved, smaller head of the rogue, not going to do it.


The rogue hoe RH80 can tamp as well the nupla and out cut it 2 to 1, only down side is when raking duff the handle is shorter.


----------



## GeauxTime9 (Jan 23, 2013)

Good luck!


----------



## shredjekyll (Jun 3, 2012)

Amazon has a lot of tools from the brands discussed above. I personally got a rogue hoe, truper rake, and true temper pulaski axe off of there.


----------



## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

The BTCEB is going to buy a fair number of tools with a grant. It was nice to come here and find good info.


----------



## danielcoyle (Nov 28, 2009)

Logging and forestry supply. Some local hardware stores have hazel hoes.


----------



## Hikers Only (Oct 18, 2010)

Just bought the Rogue Hoe FB70H and it has been the best $56 spent in a long time!!!!!


----------



## splitter_66 (Oct 19, 2004)

*Tools for Trails*

Here is a new site. These guys are just getting going on the webstore. Should be a great resource.

TOOLS for TRAILS, A supplier for quality hand tools and supplies for trail building - McCleod, Pulaski, Hoes, Pick Mattock


----------



## suggg (Jan 1, 2006)

I have bought my pick, shovel, and McLeod from Zac® Tools - "The Strongest Shovels on Earth". Their tools are tough - fiberglass handles with strong reinforcement to the actual tool/cutting edge. - Gus


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

suggg said:


> I have bought my pick, shovel, and McLeod from Zac® Tools - "The Strongest Shovels on Earth". Their tools are tough - fiberglass handles with strong reinforcement to the actual tool/cutting edge. - Gus


The Zac round point shovel with an ash handle and sharpened edges is my favorite trail building tool for digging, cutting scrub oak roots, levering rocks. If you haven't used one you are in for a treat, there is no shovel like it that I know of. Be aware that the extra HD models are SUPER beefy and VERY heavy. I personally prefer the ash handles (better balance, lighter) but the super HD tools can definitely take more abuse. The HD bow rake is great for raking out a tread through small embedded rock fields, it's much beefier than a McLeod.

Best to buy in club quantities (over $250 our last order) from Zac Tools for reasonable shipping fees.


----------



## proxy (Oct 19, 2006)

I have thoroughly abused my Lamberton Rakes, building single track in DG and boulder riddled areas. They have held up very well over the past 7 years. The large Lamberton also is a better cutter / digger into steep slopes than my McLeod.

The Lamberton Rake


----------



## dburatti (Feb 14, 2004)

I second Zac Tools. (BuyZacTools.com)

The McLeod heads are well made and sturdy with no nut on the bottom, which allows for wet dirt to cling to & hampers packing. The fiber glass handles are solid yet light weight. The little black cap on the open end of the handle always comes off and eventually was lost. Without that cap, I have noticed the fiber glass cracking a little. It's a minor concern at this point, and I wear gloves when I work, so i'm not experiencing shards or slivers.

I just bought six of these McLeods, three square point wooden handled shovels, and two wooden handle pulaskis and received them in about week. They even included a seventh McLeod as a promotional item!

I haven't unwrapped them yet, as I'm having a shed built and will just take them in there to be stored.

As far as other tools, I do like the Rogue hoes by Pro Hoe and the 7" or 8" folding razor saw by Corona. The saw blade is a bit flimsy but cuts very well with little effort.

D


----------



## drew p (Jan 20, 2012)

*Cricket material handler*









These things have been invaluable for our latest project with 2 35' bridges. Sturdy, low center of gravity and narrow enough for most single track. Made moving 35' 6x18" glu-lams possible with relatively few people. Ours were provided by a volunteer who does HVAC work, if you ask around you might find one to borrow. Great for moving lumber and other heavy long things. We made a rack for it and put 25 or so wet roughcut 3x8 5' decking pieces on it.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

GatorB said:


> Rogue Hoe: The Best Hoes for Farm and Garden
> 
> I hate stickys but this forum should have a sticky for trail supplies, tools and resources.


Just received a F70HR straight from Rogue Hoe. Arrived a day sooner than the shipping estimated.


----------



## chukt (Oct 17, 2009)

*Remote trail work*



GatorB said:


> Rogue Hoe: The Best Hoes for Farm and Garden


This tool is talked about elsewhere in the forums, did not see it listed in this sticky...

Trail Boss packable trail tool
has several different heads. McLeod, Rogue hoe, saw, shovel, mattock
Expensive, but a great solution for more remote trails.








Also the Dakine Builders Pack
for hauling a chainsaw or full handle tools.


----------



## Desidus (Jun 27, 2013)

Just grab 5000 bikers and play follow the leader through the bush...


----------



## unrooted (Jul 31, 2007)

Which tools are most essential?

What would you buy if you only had a $100?

And for $200???


----------



## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

For $100 I'd buy an axe/mattock a round mouth shovel, a bow saw and a leveling rake. That's cutting it close at $100.

For $200 I'd swap the rake for a Mcleod and spend the rest getting better versions of the cheaper tools I had to buy when I only had $100.


----------



## R2ana (Dec 24, 2010)

Garage sales are awesome. My last purchase was a big machete and a folding pick/shovel. All in excellent condition for just $5.


----------



## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

unrooted said:


> Which tools are most essential?
> 
> What would you buy if you only had a $100?
> 
> And for $200???


What is the terrain like?

For example I'm in the rocky, rooty, wet, Northeast. Downed trees, leaves, constantly encroaching vegetation, these are the things we deal with a lot.


----------



## twright205 (Oct 2, 2011)

NUPLA® McLeod Fire Tool, 139614 | Ben Meadows

NUPLA® Pulaski Axe, 139613 | Ben Meadows

and borrow your neighbor's shovel and leaf rake....

if you have no rock,, 
ROGUE HOE Tools | Ben Meadows

but I've busted a few if you have toaster size rock in the area


----------



## unrooted (Jul 31, 2007)

Miker J said:


> What is the terrain like?
> 
> For example I'm in the rocky, rooty, wet, Northeast. Downed trees, leaves, constantly encroaching vegetation, these are the things we deal with a lot.


Sand,sand, rock & sand.


----------



## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

unrooted said:


> Sand,sand, rock & sand.


Solid rock? Or rock(s). For moving rocks, a pick-mattock is invaluable. I recently picked up something called an Dig EZ-Pick. I've been putting off getting one for years because they are quite heavy. I wish I'd got one sooner. It's a great tool for cutting roots, moving rocks and the scoop-like mattock will move an amazing amount of dirt. I go out with this and a tool I made out of a dandelion rake that works like a bulldozer. Most days that's all I need and I'm way more productive than I used to be.

True Temper® - Dig EZ Pick


----------



## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Gotta love the Rogue Hoe 80RH if it's not too rocky, great weight and shape for moving a lot of dirt and sculpting a sweet backslope berm. A favorite combo with a small pick mattock or Pulaski depending on the ratio of trees and rocks.

I bought a similar tool to the RH from JR Firetools, the head unbolts and with a collapsible handle. Not as sexy as the Trail Boss, but bigger, stronger and way cheaper. I'll see how it holds up, but so far it's a great solution for a tool I can ride in with, yet still is substantial enough to do real work.

I got a Chingadera head with the fiberglass handle. About the same size as the 80RH but a little lighter head.

HEADS | :: Welcome to J.R.FireTools ::


----------



## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

unrooted said:


> Sand,sand, rock & sand.


Can't help you too much there. Probably an old fashioned pick and heavy rake.

Here in the NE it is rock, roots, trees , weeds, soil, muck, and water.


----------



## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Harryman said:


> Gotta love the Rogue Hoe 80RH if it's not too rocky, great weight and shape for moving a lot of dirt and sculpting a sweet backslope berm. A favorite combo with a small pick mattock or Pulaski depending on the ratio of trees and rocks.
> 
> I bought a similar tool to the RH from JR Firetools, the head unbolts and with a collapsible handle. Not as sexy as the Trail Boss, but bigger, stronger and way cheaper. I'll see how it holds up, but so far it's a great solution for a tool I can ride in with, yet still is substantial enough to do real work.
> 
> ...


Interesting. A little pricey at $90 for a head and handle but still cheaper than the Trail Boss if I only buy the heads I would want. Let us know how they hold up.


----------



## suggg (Jan 1, 2006)

*......another tool source........*

After looking around at some different tool sites - having broken a few mattock heads with "India" stamped on them - I found a company called Warwood Forged Tools. Adzes, Hoes, Mattocks & Picks | Forged Industrial Hand Tools | Warwood Tool I found a dealer for their products, Railroad Tools and Solutions ..... Forged Track Tools Index They don't sell Rogue tools or McLeods, but they do sell the picking type tools. I've picked up the 8lb railroad pick and the 6" blade Forestry Adze tool and the tools are awesome. These are American made tools with hickory handles (looks like you can purchase the tool only without handle as well). I just ordered a 4" mattock blade with pick. I think this store primarily deals with mining and railroad related industries - but picks and hoes aren't too concerned about the end use!!!!


----------



## thefriar (Jan 23, 2008)

I'm partial to the Rogue HRH & Rogue 60A, axe handled, for New England. Key is don't swing for the fences, let gravity do the work!

But a Pulaski might just be my total favorite, just it doesn't tamp that well but it benches, gets through about anything, can be used to pry, and clear. Winning tool.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I like my Zac 800N shovel, because I don't have to swing it, and can use my body's weight to power it. Much stronger than a conventional shovel for prying. I keep the cutting edge filed sharp.


----------



## Markhpnc (May 5, 2011)

*Loose heads on wood handles?*

I've got a classic Rogue Hoe 70h and Lamberton Rake The Lamberton Rake on wood handles and they have both developed a slight amount of play at the head attachments over the last couple years. It's not terrible but would like to fix before it gets worse.

I know NOT to soak them in water. Wondered about squeezing a strong foaming wood glue like Gorilla white or original in there?


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

You could try something like this...

http://www.amazon.com/H-Behlen-Swel-Lock/dp/B0006ZP8HY


----------



## Markhpnc (May 5, 2011)

Thanks bsieb, that looks like it should do the trick! Got it in my cart 



bsieb said:


> You could try something like this...
> 
> Amazon.com: Swel-Lock: Home Improvement


----------



## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

drew p said:


> View attachment 801554
> 
> 
> These things have been invaluable for our latest project with 2 35' bridges. Sturdy, low center of gravity and narrow enough for most single track. Made moving 35' 6x18" glu-lams possible with relatively few people. Ours were provided by a volunteer who does HVAC work, if you ask around you might find one to borrow. Great for moving lumber and other heavy long things. We made a rack for it and put 25 or so wet roughcut 3x8 5' decking pieces on it.
> ...


I know it's been a while but do you have a finished pic of this project?


----------



## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

chukt said:


> Trail Boss packable trail tool
> has several different heads. McLeod, Rogue hoe, saw, shovel, mattock
> Expensive, but a great solution for more remote trails.
> View attachment 805556


The link above is now broken; one that works: Trail Boss


----------



## chukt (Oct 17, 2009)

Thx Craig, fixed the links.


----------



## drew p (Jan 20, 2012)

bamwa said:


> I know it's been a while but do you have a finished pic of this project?


I do!

http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=10597705

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

I modified a cast-iron eye hoe, cutting it to a triangle.

https://amzn.com/B000VLHKHE
SEYMOUR 2E-IG7 Italian Grape Hoe Head

I bought mine at the local Farm and Home store but Walmart has the same hoe on their website. $20 for the head and another $20 for the handle.

My terrain is low desert sand/gravel/rock. Nearly all of my work is deberming and outsloping existing trail. This is working well for me.

The head has an eye so I can carry the head in my pack and the handle secured to the side of my pack. The cast iron head has a certain heft, but is still light enough to carry in my pack without drama.

The point digs in easily most of the time, but the long, stout handle can handle a full swing when the ground is hardened and more force is needed. Once broken up, the side of the tool works well for pulling material off the trail and leveling.

My experience is limited, and this is the only job-specific tool I have used. Previous to this, I used a Lowe's hoe and garden rake and an entrenching tool, perhaps I am not the best judge. That said, the more I use this the more I love this tool.


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

An old-school piano tuners method to swell pinblock wood was to soak it with coolant. Wonder if that might work.


----------



## TrailYoda (Feb 23, 2009)

TrailYoda said:


> The rogue hoe RH80 can tamp as well the nupla and out cut it 2 to 1, only down side is when raking duff the handle is shorter.


 Agree that it outperforms using Mcleod 95% of the time. My favorite tool in the quiver for sure! Great in clay and loam soils! Allows you to do an amazing amount of bench cutting by hand in a short time. If you have rocky soil you are still going to need a old school Pick Mattock. Otherwise the RH80 https://roguehoe.com/product/80r/ and the "Beast" Pulaski https://roguehoe.com/product/55hx-the-beast/ are the two tools folks should own. I wish they existed 20 years ago!


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

For repairs to rocky trails, I'm finding a 2.5 lb pick mattock to be very useful:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-2-5-lb-Pick-Mattock-34210/204168129

and cheap! Only $19 at Home Depot as of November 2017.

It's far superior to a Pulaski as a prying tool. The handle is much beefier and drops in through the top of the head. The horizontal blade is tough enough to bash into rocks and thin enough to root out saplings. It doesn't work well as an axe though.

I think these are the best tool to hand to a trail construction newbie who doesn't know any better than to spoil a good cutting edge. We do work days where a people show up for their first and only time as a trail builder. Why give them a Rogue with a sweet sharp edge to wreck when you can hand them something bullet proof on both ends?

Edit/ I forgot to add this important information: if you've been turned off to pick-mattock type tools due to their weight, as I was, the 2.5 lb version is much easier to work with than the standard 5-lb version. The big guy will wear you out in no time. I can work for hours with the smaller one. Night-and-day difference in usefulness.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

The guy who used this Pulaski told me he was an experienced trail builder. He got very upset when my partner tried to guide him.

He has other redeeming qualities. But I'm not seeking him out for another work day.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Couple swipes with a 12" mill bastard file and it's like new.


----------



## Walt Dizzy (Aug 18, 2003)

It could have buffed right out.

But no, I had to spend 45 min. on the grinder. What an idiot!

Edit/
Rereading this, I come across as a bit of a d**k. It was not my intention, but I let my frustration with tool damage from well-meaning newbs get the better of me.

FWIW, a coarse 10" metal file is a great tool for restoring an edge to Pulaskis, axes, Rogue Hoes and other trail tools. In my experience however, even a coarse file won't remove metal fast enough to be practical for restoring an axe bit that has been hammered directly into rock using a full overhead swing. The job is lengthy, even with a grinder.

A fairly important point that only became clear to me very recently is that the metal used for Rogue Hoes will harden if it's overheated on a grinder (metal turns blue). I don't know exactly how hard it gets, but it's hard enough to ruin an expensive Simmons file. Not sure if the same applies to Pulaski heads.
/Edit


----------



## HypNoTic (Jan 30, 2007)

Metal vary from one batch of Rogue Hoe to another because it's recycled AG disc. Carbon content change a LOT from one batch to another. The tempering effect work on high carbon mix only. And usually, blue mean overheated and temper is affected so most of the time, the edge won't stay sharp as long and the metal get more brittle. 

Before getting a grinder on that pulaski, I would suggest cold-forging the metal back into place with a hammer. Then you restore the edge with a grinder/mill/file or whatever you prefer. DON'T HEAT THE METAL. That's the key to keeping a strong edge. Also, don't over sharpen the edge like most people do : under 30deg and it's too thin.


----------



## endo_alley (May 28, 2013)

We couldn't get by without many rock bars. Besides that, I prefer a pick mattock and a square shovel. Can't see the use for a round shovel for trail building. Semi tire chains and a pair of 6' to 8' steel pipe for carrying fairly large rocks are handy.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

HypNoTic said:


> Metal vary from one batch of Rogue Hoe to another because it's recycled AG disc. Carbon content change a LOT from one batch to another. The tempering effect work on high carbon mix only. And usually, blue mean overheated and temper is affected so most of the time, the edge won't stay sharp as long and the metal get more brittle.
> 
> Before getting a grinder on that pulaski, I would suggest cold-forging the metal back into place with a hammer. Then you restore the edge with a grinder/mill/file or whatever you prefer. DON'T HEAT THE METAL. That's the key to keeping a strong edge. Also, don't over sharpen the edge like most people do : under 30deg and it's too thin.


Perfect advice. If you use a 10" or 12" mill bastard file there are no worries about ruining the temper.


----------



## Oldfatbaldguy (Nov 4, 2010)

Have looked around in the US for wide flat shovel as seen in the UK: I gave up, then saw a Seth's video showing trail builders using exactly what I was looking for here (ffwd to about 4:00):





I should add that I am the trail maintenance director for a local club, in charge of about 28 miles of single track, as well as a pump track. I wish to have the best tools for myself as well as other volunteers.

That wide, flat bottomed shovel really appeals to me. There are numerous makers with a trapezoidal-shaped shovel, or open-back models that trap dirt in the socket tunnel. That's what I wish to avoid

Any leads?


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

These are really good, have a closed socket. The heavy duty model is really heavy, like 1/8" thick, I prefer the lighter weight version. http://www.buyzactools.com/store/productview.asp?prodID=49


----------



## RHEL (Dec 7, 2006)

Old skool collapsible bow saw. These things are cheap, adaptable to longer blades without adding much weight, and they're easy to make, remake or repair in the field.
You can skip the wood-geek chisel work with a drill press.

Folding frame saw #2: Folding frame / buck saw - hiking version. - by mafe @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community


----------



## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

OMG, that link was worth it just for the pics of the shop and tools!


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

Nice! I have made a couple of those and they are cool. I went back to a folding corona pull cut saw. Lighter and cuts faster and straighter for me.


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

I bought my Rogue Hoes through Gemplers. A little bit cheaper but they have the option for free shipping sometimes which really helps. They also have some other weird shovels and cool stuff. I almost bought a sawtooth shovel. https://www.gemplers.com/product/2942/Sawtooth-Shovel-w-Fiberglass-Straight-Handle

Might give one a try next time they have free shipping.


----------



## 786737 (Mar 13, 2015)

I was googling where to buy rock slings and came across this web site:

Complete Trail Services: Tool Sales and Service, Design, Training and Workshops

Follow links to the catalog. Lots of cool products and some commentary on techniques.


----------



## karthur (Apr 20, 2018)

the one ring said:


> I was googling where to buy rock slings and came across this web site:
> 
> Complete Trail Services: Tool Sales and Service, Design, Training and Workshops
> 
> Follow links to the catalog. Lots of cool products and some commentary on techniques.


Cool. Thanks for the link. I've learned there is trail building and then there is TRAIL BUILDING!!!. lol


----------



## MuniMan26 (Mar 19, 2016)

Where to get tools; if you are doing heavy rock work, one place to get a good tool is the local Sawmill. An eight foot 2x6 plank.

We built a bridge out of black locust 2 years ago. One of the 2x6's was culled and left by the side of the trail. It eventually got picked up one day and was used as lever. The additional leverage over a 5' pinch bar is dramatic. Rocks that seemed to be unmoveable without a grip hoist are suddenly kids play. The width of the plank also makes it more stable, its quite easy to sit on the end and hold something up.

Its not something that you would want to carry everywhere but if you are moving big rock its worth having a plank around.

In the picture below the weight of the board alone was enough to hold the slab up while I got trex/rollers under it. Having some 30" trex decking cutoffs is pretty handy also.


----------

