# Tubeless Tuesday.



## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

All this chatter of tubeless and countless threads, i myself have had 3-4 attempts but never using the "build up the valley" method.

So the missus asked what i was doing today, i said "a bit of stuff outside" she said she would not be home all day and she would pick the kids up from school :thumbsup:

Perfect opportunity for for Toobless Toosday.... though i didnt count on it taking me 5 hours.

Ok i used Laminate flooring underlay for the foam, its plastic backed and not the lightest but its a medium density foam. I measured the "valley" and cut it into strips progressively getting wider.



















1 wrap around with gorilla tape, stretched and made sure it reached the bead.










Marge lites.
Rimstrip = 45g
Foam = 50g
Tape = 45g
So the rim strip stayed there meaning a 90g gain for losing a 220g Q-Tube superlite = -130g  
I have not added sealant to the Marge Lites yet as i will not be riding them until i have got the others sorted.










This is where i was gobsmacked, i fitted the tyre, gave them a quick once round with some soapy water, gave it 1-2 pumps with the track pump and the tyre move towards the bead and started bubbling :eekster:










10-12 pumps later the first bead popped, then the second at about 15psi, i have pumped them to 20psi and they still seem like they are holding air with no sealant.










Awesome, cant believe how easy that was, most time was taken cutting foam. Thanks to all who have posted their tubeless conversions.... if you see some of you mod here, i probably copied you. Cheers :thumbsup:


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Ok set number 2.

These have been a *****, i have tried these 3-4 times with no luck.Hopefully things have changed. 
These are 47mm Trialtech SL's. They already had a rimstrip weighing 55g as there was a full wrap of gorilla tape on them from the last unsucessful tubeless attempt.

I removed the old rimstrip and added the foam and new gorilla tape, total gained was 45g more from what they were, the original rimstrip could have been lighter but nevertheless 220g q-tube superlite minus 45g = 175g saved (rimstrip is additional 55g) per wheel. Both wheels have had 70ml of stans added.

First thing was to block the holes that would let the air escape into the rim and out the butted joint. Filled with epoxy metal putty and a smear of loctite on the joint.










Same as before, filled the valley with foam. Then taped up.




























These went up with the same 1-2 pumps but did not pop onto the bead, thats why i will try and sort these out first as the other wheels are 100%. I cant burp the bead or let any air out until they are nearly flat but tonights ride will make things clearer. They are currently holding air (after stans blocked about 10 holes from thorns) at 10psi and i will drop that gradually down to about 7psi for testing purposes.

Hopefully all works well and they stay on the rims, cheers for tips :thumbsup:

4 wheels now tubeless !!!!


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## Stevob (Feb 27, 2009)

Nice work. Looking forward to the ride impressions.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Cheers Stevo, If i survive the run tonight i'll post how the Trialtechs go later, the Marge Lites are as good as perfect, the bead is solid on them.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Just did a 35km loop, wheels performed beautifully. 

One thing that has surprised me, i usually ran these wheels/tyres at 9psi on dirt :nono:

I started the ride with 10psi in the tyres (digital gauge), i took the gauge with me to drop air out as i went.... wrong. I had to add a little bit making both tyres to 11psi to feel the same as they did previously with tubes fitted.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

I have saved 260g on the Marge/Buds wheelset.

And 350g on the TrialTech/HuDu's wheelset. (sealant added after weigh in)

With the new 1080 cassette i weighed my bike in the high 24lbs today, the new "lite" HuDu's i just got are saving me 130g a tyre too, so when its gets the next weigh in i might have a surprise


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Nicely done! Enjoy alot less flats


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Cheers shark, Ive been tubeless for 5 years on other bikes, if i get anywhere near the result ive had with them i'll be super happy.


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## easterntide (Sep 1, 2012)

Great write up and nice images. I'm tubeless on my non drilled rolling Darryl's + nates. Just used gorilla tape and Stan's but no center filler. What is the reason needed for the center foam? She's on marge lites and will soon be running Dillingers ...I'd like to make this tubeless for her. 
Thanks again.


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## Dustin Mustangs (Nov 15, 2011)

So if I read that right you didn't put any tape under the foam, just over it? And the 'contact patch' between the rim and tape is more or less just the bead shelf??


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## EPcycles (Dec 3, 2009)

Very nice and thurough. :thumbsup:


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## easterntide (Sep 1, 2012)

Dustin Mustangs said:


> So if I read that right you didn't put any tape under the foam, just over it? And the 'contact patch' between the rim and tape is more or less just the bead shelf??


correct. all i did was do three layers of gorilla tape (left/right/center), melt the valve hole out w a soldering iron and put air in w a compressor. providing that seals up ok i then take out the valve core and huck some stans in and shake.
so far its worked flawlessly on 3 efforts on rolling darryls W/O cutouts.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

Hey;

SUPERB, clear, concise write-up with great images, Ozz. Not the first, but likely the best!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

-


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2012)

TrailMaker said:


> Hey;
> 
> SUPERB, clear, concise write-up with great images, Ozz. Not the first, but likely the best!
> 
> ...


yup by far the ozzyiest (just made that up ) if i understand the 1st post correctly regarding the absence of a tube it requires more air volume to match a tubed setup in order to have the same ride feel yes??


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## exp18 (Feb 15, 2012)

I post this in the other thread but i think its very important to inspect the bead of the tire for any inperfections and remove them with sand paper or if you are careful a die grinder. I found that out the hard way after I had leaks on a spilt tube method.


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## TrailMaker (Sep 16, 2007)

exp18 said:


> I post this in the other thread but i think its very important to inspect the bead of the tire for any inperfections and remove them with sand paper or if you are careful a die grinder. I found that out the hard way after I had leaks on a spilt tube method.


Very True...

Of ALL of the the surfaces involved. Car race tires are the same way. The beads are so stiff and with little extra rubber to absorb junk, that if anything gets in there (casting flashing, bead bits, little stones, rim corrosion or nicks, whatever) it will leak, and race tires already leak like crazy anyway. Flat every morning, sometimes, if you don't pay close attention when mounting them.


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

ozzybmx said:


> Ok set number 2.
> 
> These have been a *****, i have tried these 3-4 times with no luck.Hopefully things have changed.
> These are 47mm Trialtech SL's. They already had a rimstrip weighing 55g as there was a full wrap of gorilla tape on them from the last unsucessful tubeless attempt.
> ...


Nice work dude!! Persistence pays! You will absolutely love riding tubeless on your fatbike. I think the benefits are totally magnified by the big wheels... Especially the aspect of rolling resistance. You will feel it immediately.

Let us know how it goes!

Cheers,
MG


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

ozzybmx said:


> Just did a 35km loop, wheels performed beautifully.
> 
> One thing that has surprised me, i usually ran these wheels/tyres at 9psi on dirt :nono:
> 
> I started the ride with 10psi in the tyres (digital gauge), i took the gauge with me to drop air out as i went.... wrong. I had to add a little bit making both tyres to 11psi to feel the same as they did previously with tubes fitted.


You'll likely start to get a feel for the fact that you can go lower and lower with your pressure as your confidence in the tubeless setup grows. You'll start to understand that feeling the rim gently tapping the ground every once and a while isn't the worst thing in the world when you're running tubeless (unless you're riding in really rocky terrain).


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## DubzOxford (Nov 9, 2012)

Does this method work for folding bead tires or only wire bead?


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## boogman (May 21, 2012)

thanks for the post.. 

I've got Large Marge Rims and the 27tpi Larry and Endos.. would these combinations be tubeless compatible? What's the process?


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## Gruitr1 (Mar 18, 2011)

"Just used gorilla tape and Stan's but no center filler. What is the reason needed for the center foam?"

I was wondering the same?? What is the purpose of the filler, center foam or any foam at all?? Seems like you could just use the existing rim strip or no rim strip and just run 3 strips of gorilla tape around rim carefully covering up to bead edge on rim as pictured in this thread and be done?


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## Sasquatch1413 (Nov 6, 2008)

Gruitr1 said:


> "Just used gorilla tape and Stan's but no center filler. What is the reason needed for the center foam?"
> 
> I was wondering the same?? What is the purpose of the filler, center foam or any foam at all?? Seems like you could just use the existing rim strip or no rim strip and just run 3 strips of gorilla tape around rim carefully covering up to bead edge on rim as pictured in this thread and be done?


As far as I understand it, the foam really just helps with mounting and first taking air. Without the foam, there would be too much room for air to escape between the tire and rim when first airing up.


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## rivrmutt (Mar 14, 2006)

Seriously, all that work for 1/2 lbs? I just don't get it.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

rivrmutt said:


> Seriously, all that work for 1/2 lbs? I just don't get it.


Loosing the weight is is very nice side-effect but the whole concept of tubeless is puncture and pinch flat elimination and also ride quality.


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## EPcycles (Dec 3, 2009)

ozzybmx said:


> Loosing the weight is is very nice side-effect but the whole concept of tubeless is puncture and pinch flat elimination and also ride quality.


Agreed. :thumbsup:


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

DubzOxford said:


> Does this method work for folding bead tires or only wire bead?


Both sets i used are folding beads.



Dustin Mustangs said:


> So if I read that right you didn't put any tape under the foam, just over it? And the 'contact patch' between the rim and tape is more or less just the bead shelf??


The Marge lites have a small line of tape on either side holding the clear sparkly polythene rimstrip in place but in short the answer is yes, both wheels have the gorilla tape stretch fitted the full width and its only contacting the bead shelf :thumbsup:


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

easterntide said:


> What is the reason needed for the center foam?





Gruitr1 said:


> What is the purpose of the filler, center foam or any foam at all?? Seems like you could just use the existing rim strip or no rim strip and just run 3 strips of gorilla tape around rim carefully covering up to bead edge on rim as pictured in this thread and be done?


I did this way because it worked successfully on other members here, theres plenty of other threads already posted that i copied to do these. It made sense and i could see exactly what advantage it would give but i am still shocked at the ease they inflated, 1-2 pumps and the tyre bead was touching the rim bead :eekster:

The main reason is fat tyres are super "baggy" and actually fall off the rim, no tyre levers needed with these  getting the tyre bead up on or near the rim bead to start building pressure is the harderst part and the foam does this for you.

Filling the "valley" with foam stops the bead falling into the valley and forces a tighter fit so once you start inflating, the bead has already got a semi-seal on the built up foam and the slighest bit of pressure and its moving towards the bead ready to seal. Trying to inflate them without this foam is a painful job, the tyres can be easily changed out and inflated again tubeless with a track pump.

Non of the fat tyres are meant to be inflated tubeless and the QC on them doesnt seem flash, also apart from UMA rims i dont think there is any that are meant to be used for tubeless either.

There loads of different ways of doing this and doing it without foam might be as easy for you with you tyre/rim combo. I have tried a few times with the Trialtech/HuDu and also on my GFS/larry-endos without success, now this time the foam has made all the difference.


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## boogman (May 21, 2012)

What did you use as valve if no split tube? Thanks


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

ozzybmx said:


> I did this way because it worked successfully on other members here, theres plenty of other threads already posted that i copied to do these. It made sense and i could see exactly what advantage it would give but i am still shocked at the ease they inflated, 1-2 pumps and the tyre bead was touching the rim bead :eekster:
> 
> The main reason is fat tyres are super "baggy" and actually fall off the rim, no tyre levers needed with these  getting the tyre bead up on or near the rim bead to start building pressure is the harderst part and the foam does this for you.
> 
> ...


Great thread on your technique; well executed---I'd try it but I seem to be getting by OK ghetto-style w/o the foam. It might be worth mentioning that when using this method to be sure to use "closed-cell" foam; there are "open-cell" weather-stripping tapes and they'd act just like a sponge if the wheel was immersed---talk about heavy!


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## SADDLE TRAMP (Aug 26, 2010)

Thanks Ozzy for posting your efforts.

Well explained and must say the lighting really shows off your handy work; (by design?...or luck?)


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## GTR2ebike (May 3, 2010)

boogman said:


> What did you use as valve if no split tube? Thanks


I don't think he is using a valve as that's not accounted for in the weight


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

No way, 10g valves are too heavy 

For the two sets of wheels i used 3 proper tubeless valves and 1 made from a tube.

If you have old tubes with valves that have removable cores just cut round the valve and leave a 10mm circle all around, its just as good bought valves and in a lot of cases cheaper too as the valves are about $10 each .


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Sand Rat said:


> the lighting really shows off your handy work; (by design?...or luck?)


It was stinking hot outside, just lucky lighting as i did all the taping inside in aircon'd comfort.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Nice work!

So now, just to play devils advocate for a moment, why Gorilla tape as opposed to split tube?

I love G tape (the most badass duct tape ever made!), but it is heavy as far as duct tape goes, nice and dense, but heavy. Yeah, not *that* heavy, okay, relax out there... 

The reason I like the split tube is the extra room it takes up and the bead socket, as well as the extra sealing around the bead. Also makes you not have to go around and seal all the tiny drain holes in the rim. 

Sure, the sealant takes care of the sealing, but if it has help, it'd seem to be a good thing. 

Think bead socket room reduction ala Stan's rims with their BST, mixed with the butyl wrapped beads on the current crop of "tubeless ready" tires, and you can see what my thrust here is.

I also have a theory working off of Mikesee's issues with thinking the beads are slipping under heavy load/low pressures, that the butyl wrap on the bead will help hold it more tightly than just the aluminum rim. 

All good, just discussing relative merits and potential downfalls/benefits of both concepts. 

Happy Saturday!


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Ive always been tubeless with tape and valves, and the foam in the middle make its easy to inflate with a floor pump. Tyres are easily changed and on the off chance of a puncture that doesnt seal up its as simple as removing the valve and put a tube in.
The main reason to tape it up is holding the foam in place, if i was running a split tube i would still have to have some kind of tape for the foam, it might as well be gorilla tape and forget the tube.

No tube hanging out the side of the tyre would make it a neater looking job too i would think.


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## DubzOxford (Nov 9, 2012)

My Surly Cycling cap is off to those of you that were able to make your Holy Rolling Darryl’s tubeless. I thought about going tubeless since day one when I got my Neco. I scanned the pages of the fat bike forum looking for suggestions and final decided to make the plunge this morning. I grabbed a roll of Gorilla tape, a set of Stans tubeless valves, some foam to fill the valley, and started off on my unknown venture. Everything went just as planned, I put the final strip of tape across the rim, put my valve in, mounted my 120tpi Knard and to the compressor I went. I attempted to fill the tire with absolutely no luck. No matter what I did I could not get the tire to fill with air. In frustration and lack of time, I removed all the items that created my useless Tubeless system. The ball of tape, foam and valve that I had in my hand felt rather heavy. For grins I took out my scale and weighed the mess. 200 grams on the noise. With the 265 gram tubes in which I was going to replace, I decided to hold off on another attempt to go tubeless. 
Until I can figure out my mistake, I will live with the 130 gram combined difference.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

ozzybmx said:


> Ive always been tubeless with tape and valves, and the foam in the middle make its easy to inflate with a floor pump. Tyres are easily changed and on the off chance of a puncture that doesnt seal up its as simple as removing the valve and put a tube in.
> The main reason to tape it up is holding the foam in place, if i was running a split tube i would still have to have some kind of tape for the foam, it might as well be gorilla tape and forget the tube.
> 
> No tube hanging out the side of the tyre would make it a neater looking job too i would think.


Both systems work, all good there.

Just fyi, no need for taping the foam with split tube though. Rim strip, foam, split tube, roll it.

Nice sharp razor, and I get a nice clean cut, right next to the tire. Can't even tell it's there.

Regardless, I do love tubeless. :thumbsup:


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

I'm waiting to hear back from *Eclipse* about whether they can make a fat tube.


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## GTR2ebike (May 3, 2010)

Velobike said:


> I'm waiting to hear back from *Eclipse* about whether they can make a fat tube.


$100 tube ha


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## GTR2ebike (May 3, 2010)

MiniTrail said:


> people have said that about tires. Now, to us, a $100 tire is cheap


Slightly different, let me know when you find a $10-15 fat bike tire.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

GTR2ebike said:


> $100 tube ha


I'll be lugging my bike up and down a mountain for 24 hours in January. Come the 23rd hour, I'd happily pay more than that to lose well over 1 lb from my bike.


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## sickmtbnutcase (Nov 5, 2012)

Ozzy, followed your method for setting up my Marge Lites tubeless today. (27tpi Larry front, 27tpi Endo rear). Worked well from what I can tell. Haven't had a chance to ride it yet though.

I am glad the previous owner of my house left a roll of laminate flooring foam. Finally found a use for it 

Thanks a ton!!!

Decorative duct tape for a "rim strip" on my setup...figured why not.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Nice one !!! Well that's made the write up worthwhile already. So it's worked on wire bead tyres too then :thumbsup:


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

After spiking one tyre with a stick and when i went to put a tube in it i seen that the pressure has collapsed my foam i decided to try something different.

Gorilla tape weighs a bit and its very messy leaving glue stuck everywhere.

So i got 2 x 55m rolls of 3M Tensalized packing tape, basically wide stans tape.

Also got some non-memory foam so it would not compact under pressure.

To make it worthwhile and make sure it wasnt making the combo heavier i weighed each stage.

Wheel as is with only gorilla rim tape and clear plastic was 1820g









Rim tape removed, 1745g meaning my rim tape was 75g.... which was a bit surprising.









New Vinyl rim tape installed and 1 wrap of 3M tape was 1795g, meaning my new vinyl tape is 50g per wheel.









Blue 3M tape covers the vinyl 100% so its airtight.









New non-memory foam fitted, 1845g.









Taped right up and over the sides.









Trimmed back tight to the bead with a sharp knife and excess removed.









View of finish taping job, im excited as its turned out as i expected 
When the tyre pops on the bead the tape will be locked behind it similar to ghetto tubeless meaning the sealant or air cant escape down beside the tape.









Total weight of 3 wraps of tape was 10g, bringing the total weight to 1855g meaning that the TOTAL tubeless conversion including the heavy vinyl rimstrip was 110g. The rimstrip could be done with the 3M blue tape for under 10g if you like blue as a colour.... so a 70g conversion is possible.
Q-tube SL still weighs 220g, my new tubeless is 110g with this light tape.










Conversion was easy, the longest time taken was cleaning the residual gorilla tape off... took about 1 hour of hard labour :eekster:

End result, 2 pumps with the track pump and the tyre was at the bead, at approx 13psi the first bead popped and around 15psi the other went on.

Hopefully this is it dialled now.

Happy Toobless.


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## russmu66 (Nov 11, 2007)

Nice work Ozzy. Where would I buy some of that 3M tape... and what do I ask for?
Cheers
FatMuz


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Muzz, i searched all over for it, the US has it in loads of sizes including 72mm but the postage from RS Hughes in the US was $120 for 2 rolls of tape :lol:

Element14 here in Oz does the 48mm and thats the only place i could find it here. They do free shipping on orders over $45 so i got 2 rolls and stuck 4 x $1.75 tape measures (can never find one in my house) on just to bump it over the freebie postage price.

cheers.


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## Dan GSR (Apr 29, 2010)

Look forward to hearing how this new tape holds up over time


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## bobkorn (Dec 6, 2011)

Maybe I missed it but how much Stan's are you using?


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

2 scoops, weighs 60g'ish. Same amount i was injecting into my Qtubes.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

Ozzy, this looks very promising but I have to ask: you really get away with just 2 scoops of Stans in this? I'm not sure that I'd trust less than 3, and I have no need to seal holes just cover the inner surface of the tire.

For those of us NOT riding in the thorny outback this is still heavier than q-tubes (without sealant), but only nominally. I really wish someone could do some quanitifyable analysis on tubes vs no-tubes with fat-bike tires.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Not understanding you calculations ? I have done this now 5 times and done the calcs everytime. Im only posting it up here to help others decide.

My bare wheel is 1745g, setup tubeless is 1855g so 110g total for the tubeless setup. Q-tubes weigh 220g and thats without a rimstrip. How much are your rimstrips weighing ? add that to the 220g.

Its well under half the weight of the lightest tube'd setup.

If you want to add 2 scoops of stans its a total of 170g, even 3 scoops takes it to around 200g. I was adding 2 scoops to my Qtubes anyway as small punctures here are a PITA, ive been tubeless for 5 years on all my other bikes.... i couldnt go any longer with tubes in the fat wheels.

Adding more stans only makes it last longer, 2 scoops is plenty for 2-3 months then just add some more. Theres no need to fill the wheel with it because if you get a stick puncture it only going to spit the lot of it on the trail anyway.


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

A Surly rim strip weighs over 100 grams. 

Two things to note when comparing weighs of tubeless vs. tubed: 

In a tubeless setup the weight is closer to center, which means it affects acceleration less.
Also the sealant is liquid, which is not the same as solid weight when it comes to acceleration.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Saul Lumikko said:


> A Surly rim strip weighs over 100 grams.


Even with the lightest rim strip configuration, tubeless with this 3M tape, Vinyl rimstrip and foam is still half the weight.

Saul im not 100% on your theory of rolling water, at a certain speed all the liquid gets centrifugally displaced around the worst place there is.... being the inside of the tread wall.

But after my findings, im sure theres a lot of riders out there that are not even counting rim strips.... they are a shocking weight unless you have been careful with them.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

ozzybmx said:


> Even with the lightest rim strip configuration, tubeless with this 3M tape, Vinyl rimstrip and foam is still half the weight.


Ozzy, again I think you are coming up with a good system here. BUT, I don't see how you can claim its "half the weight" of a tubed system. Maybe if you have a tube with sealant in it, which for your purposes may be necessary, but for me, and most fatbikers, is not.

By your most optimistic math:

110 g of tubeless rim set-up + 170g (only 2 scoops!) of sealant = 280 g
100 g of Surly rim strop + 220 Q-tube = 320 g

Lighter? Yes. Half the weight? not even close... 10% is more like it.

Plus I think your calculations are optimistic. I would not run a 3.7" tire tubeless with any less than 3 scoops. Basic geometry tells you that a 3.7" tire has twice the surface area of a 2.2 tire, meaning you should probably add about twice as much sealant. And you can make your own rimstrip (as I did) that is lighter than the Surly strip, I think mine is around 60 grams.

Still the weights are comparable. For me, the ease of changing a flat in sub-freezing conditions with gloves on seems higher with tubes than it would for tubeless, and that factor overrides a few grams of weight plus or minus, as far as I am concerned. Obviously for you puncture sealing is more critical. Different folks, different strokes.

I want to know more about rolling resistance and ride quality of tubed vs tubeless. Positive impacts in these departments would compel me to give tubeless a try. Thanks for working through all the bugs for me


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## Fakie1999 (Feb 14, 2010)

FishMan473 said:


> For me, the ease of changing a flat in sub-freezing conditions with gloves on seems higher with tubes than it would for tubeless, and that factor overrides a few grams of weight plus or minus, as far as I am concerned.


Changing a flat would be no different really.

In a tubeless setup, break the bead, remove valve stem, install tube.

In a tubed setup, break the bead, remove old tube, install new tube.

I do agree on the amount of sealant though. 2 scoops in such a big tire doesnt sound like it would be very effective. Thats how much sealant I use in 29x2.2 tires.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

Fakie1999 said:


> Changing a flat would be no different really.


Except that you're likely to get wet, gooey and cold.


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## Borgschulze (Nov 5, 2007)

This reminds me, I should clean out my AM/FR bike tires of the Stan's sealant... then I can post photos of Stan's Boogers.


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## autodoctor911 (Oct 30, 2012)

FishMan473 said:


> Ozzy, again I think you are coming up with a good system here. BUT, I don't see how you can claim its "half the weight" of a tubed system. Maybe if you have a tube with sealant in it, which for your purposes may be necessary, but for me, and most fatbikers, is not.
> 
> By your most optimistic math:
> 
> ...


I think he was saying 170g is total setup with 60g of sealant(2 scoops).

So, 110g of valve,tape and foam + 60g of sealant = 170g
220g tube + 100g rim strip = 320g

not half, but pretty darn close.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

autodoctor911 said:


> I think he was saying 170g is total setup with 60g of sealant(2 scoops).
> 
> So, 110g of valve,tape and foam + 60g of sealant = 170g
> 220g tube + 100g rim strip = 320g
> ...


:thumbsup: spot on ^^^

Plus I was adding the sealant to my tubes anyway.

170g of sealant would be near 1/4 of a litre.


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## autodoctor911 (Oct 30, 2012)

I think you're right about the flat tire situation too, if you do get a rip big enough to need a tube put in, it should be easy enough to pop the valve out of the way, and stick a tube in. So, unless you're trying to not have to carry a spare tube, and rely on a patch kit, It's about the same, and a patch kit would be very difficult in gloves.
Besides, If you're going tubeless, it should be very rare that you get a flat at all.


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

ozzybmx said:


> Saul im not 100% on your theory of rolling water, at a certain speed all the liquid gets centrifugally displaced around the worst place there is.... being the inside of the tread wall.


The difference between liquid and solid is not 100% this or that, there are lots of factors like viscosity and friction (liquids still have some). The point is that when you accelerate from standstill and the tire rotates 1/4 turns for example, the tube will rotate the exact same amount at the same time. Liquid will gradually pick up the speed and spread out to the tread wall, but at that point you're rolling already and weight location (far from center) isn't so critical. When you've reached the speed you keep, rolling weight matters very little. Going uphill you of course pull all the weight with you, but that includes you, all your gear and the bike regardless of where the weight is.

It's not like liquid weight has zero effect on acceleration, but the effect is reduced compared to solid weight, so I think they can not be compared gram for gram. I'll rather take 100 grams of sealant in my tires instead of 100 grams of rubber.

Going further would require a lot of testing to see how much exactly the difference is. All I say is that there is a _slight_ difference in the favor of liquid.


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## Schott (Nov 26, 2012)

Do you know how long it took to find this thread again? Search is a fail. I'm carsick from scrolling. Worth it, redoing my tubeless, and I want that tape.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Schott, both my sets are still tight as ****. No leakage and the foam was holding up really well last time i looked.

The tape looks like its done an awesome job.


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## sickmtbnutcase (Nov 5, 2012)

Yup, same here (thanks to this thread). Have run some very low pressure for snow. bottomed out on the rim a few times with no ill effects. No burps. Essentially perfect so far.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

ozzybmx said:


> Schott, both my sets are still tight as ****. No leakage and the foam was holding up really well last time i looked.
> 
> The tape looks like its done an awesome job.


Would that be the "Gorilla Tape" that is doing a great job?


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

tjdog800 said:


> Would that be the "Gorilla Tape" that is doing a great job?


No, the 8898 Strapping tape (blue). I will never stick Gorilla tape on a set of wheels ever again.

Ive had about 5-6 rolls in different widths over the past 2 years and used it on every wheel ive had in that time, my enve wheels also came with Gorilla tape from the factory and i dont know why they stick with it, its heavy, it leaves a messy residue, it moves when air pressure pushes against it (more critical on fat wheels), it has or gets over time an uneven glue spread allowing tubeless fluid to go through and under it and the tyre bead sticks to the glue ripping threads off the tape when you remove a tyre.

You tear the old stuff off to replace it and spend an hour plus getting glue off your rim seat/bead of each wheel.

All 4 sets of wheels i have now are tubeless with the strapping tape and doing beautifully.

IMO its terrible stuff but YMMV.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

ozzybmx said:


> No, the 8898 Strapping tape (blue). I will never stick Gorilla tape on a set of wheels ever again.
> 
> Ive had about 5-6 rolls in different widths over the past 2 years and used it on every wheel ive had in that time, my enve wheels also came with Gorilla tape from the factory and i dont know why they stick with it, its heavy, it leaves a messy residue, it moves when air pressure pushes against it (more critical on fat wheels), it has or gets over time an uneven glue spread allowing tubeless fluid to go through and under it and the tyre bead sticks to the glue ripping threads off the tape when you remove a tyre.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification! What width do you use and where did you get it?


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

The only tape I could find close to suitable in middle-earth was called BearTape (I think it's the same as gorilla), with a strip on the left side, right side and in the middle. It weighted in pretty close to a surly 90g rim strip, but the sealant was coming out through the cut outs and unused spoke holes it needed another couple wraps to seal. I thought I was losing some weight with my 18g of nylon and packing foam then the tape went on 
Blue tape looks to be the ticket.


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## clunkklonk (Jan 26, 2013)

I just taped my Surly rimstrip on the rim with Stan's tape. It might be a 50g heavier solution than without the rimstrip, but I get to keep the cool blue rimstrip.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

tjdog800 said:


> Thanks for the clarification! What width do you use and where did you get it?


If you are in the US you can get it from RS Hughes in any width, i could only get it in 48mm here so that was the width i used.


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.


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## BoogieMang (Mar 17, 2011)

alshead said:


> Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.


I was able to get my HuDu to seat up on a Rolling Darryl with just gorilla tape. I had to put a tube in, seat the beads, unseat one side, pull the tube out, and then was able to get the other bead to seat with a compressor... it wasn't exactly easy, as I did have to kind of pull up on the sidewall to get it to pop on... a pair of extra hands helps.


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## CAPBOY (Sep 8, 2008)

alshead said:


> Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.


I put Larry's on my Daryls. Layer of foam, then Standard Gorilla overalpped for width. Do not put tape in the bead area. Inflate w/compressor Until it beads. Fill through valve w/ syringe. Has not leaked a pound since January.


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

alshead said:


> Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.


The Hudu's were a bit problematic for me on the Holy RD's, figure out which side is giving you the most grief seat that side with a tube then pull it out and seat the other. If that doesn't work you can always grab the hairspray and lighter if you don't have a compressor.


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## Gruffalo (Oct 29, 2010)

Been reading this thread with interest. I have just bought an On-One fatty and at some point want to go tubeless. I'm a bit torn now between this method with tape and foam or the split tube method. 

I have just found some 48mm 3M 8898 strapping tape but it's £32 a roll! 

I have a question about seating the valve when using the foam. When you put the valve thorugh and tighten up the nut does the valve base seal agaist the tape ok? Do you not run the risk of tightening it and pulling the valve through the tape?


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

I would be having another look, im taking it you are in the UK by the currency quoted 

Here's a better price for starters Tapes | Farnell United Kingdom | Results


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## Elvota (Oct 30, 2008)

Couple questions for you Ozzy...

Would it be possible for you to post the manufacturers part number on the 55mm wide 3M tape you found? Might make Google searches for each region more effective.

The "vinyl rim tape" you mention... is this just some sort of non-stick vinyl strapping?

The second attempt using the 3M tape and vinyl strip used no foam whatsoever, correct?

Thanks for the help... appreciate all the documentation and answers you have posted.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Here you go - **Scotch® Film Strapping Tape 8898 Blue, 48 mm x 55 m, 24 per case Bulk

The vinyl rims strips are cut from a roll of vinyl cloth at a craft shop, vinyl that is used in dressmaking, basically coloured waterproof cloth.

The second attempt, and third and fourth i always use 10mm EVA foam. This non memory foam makes it easy to inflate tyres with a floor pump.

Good luck with your conversion.


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## Elvota (Oct 30, 2008)

Awesome.... thanks a lot!!


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

I have just done a little experiment tonight successfully. 

I have used ripstop nylon as the rim strip, weighs about 1-2g for 2 wraps, feels like feather weight, my scales wont even register.

Then 2 wraps of 8898 tape @ less than 10g.

The ultralight HuDu was inflated on the margelite rim for a week at 30psi with a tube, i deflated and took them off, cleaned the old tape off the rim then did the new lightweight taping, put the tyre on with a tube then inflated... popping both beads.

Carefully removed 1 bead seal and the tube then screwed in a tubeless valve with 1 bead still seated.

I then put some soapy water on the remaining unseated bead, set the wheel horizontally on a bucket (so the unsealed bead was being forced down with gravity and inflated it with a track pump popping the other bead and sealing the tyre onto the rim successfully.

So tomorrow when i get time i will inject 60-80ml of stans into the tyre through the valve stem and see if i can seal it.

So the complete rimstrip with tape is around 10-15g in total.

Will keep yous updated when i add the stans and try to get the tyre sealed.

My whole idea with this is as an out and out race wheelset.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

Got a 907 built up for my wife and daughter a week ago and it flatted yesterday so I decided to take it tubeless like my surly. 
The HDs on Rolling Darrel's sure didn't take to the Getto tubeless setup as quickly as my Marge Lites with Escalators. Those have been set up for six months with no issues. I unseated one side to check the Stan's fill and it was still pretty good. Added one scoop and seated it back up with a compressor. Not even a "Stan's ball" to take out. 
Back to the HDs... Split and mounted a tube over the surly rim strip, set on the tire, doused it all with soapy water, and tried to use my compressor to fill through the valveless stem. No luck. Wrapped a strap around the tire to push it out some on the rim and it finally aired up after giggling and rotating the tire a bit. Extra hands would make it easier. Quickly put the valve core back in and pumped it up to 30. Never got the Pop I got with the escalators as they seated on the rim but it looks like it is seated properly and is holding pressure. 
The extra width on the rolling Darrel made it a lot harder to air up compared to the Marge lites as there is a lot more space for air to escape.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Did you tell your wife about the mod? If not, it would be a great way to gain feedback from a rider who might not understand the differences. Ask your wife if the bike feels different.


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## Armyballer (Aug 30, 2013)

Not wanting to buy a case of it...this is the correct tape yes?

3M Scotch 8898 Synthetic Rubber Film Strapping Adhesive Tape, 4.6 mil Thick, 60.14 yds Length x 1-7/8" Width, Blue: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific


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## Gizzard75 (Aug 8, 2013)

Ordered supplies to go tubeless- 

orange seal tubeless valves- I like the larger rubber foot on these but it made me think (after I bought them) that I could have made my own from some blown 700cc tubes... 

Plan on using Tyvek Tape to seal up the rims, no foam, Stan's sealant, and some 3M reflective tape on the Surly rimstrip. 

Will update when I get the supplies and get it done!


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

jonshonda said:


> Did you tell your wife about the mod? If not, it would be a great way to gain feedback from a rider who might not understand the differences. Ask your wife if the bike feels different.


After a couple rides, wife hasn't noticed a difference. I think she's still in the honeymoon stage with this bike and hasn't found any quirks to mention... yet.


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## k.b. (Dec 28, 2006)

The 8898 blue tape is a bit hard to find by the roll rather than the case . Here are the 2 links(by the roll) already mentioned in this thread.
The 72 (2 7/8")
Welcome to R.S.Hughes

The 48mm (1 7/8")
3M Scotch 8898 Synthetic Rubber Film Strapping Adhesive Tape, 4.6 mil Thick, 60.14 yds Length x 1-7/8" Width, Blue: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

And here is a link to 2" x 165' Tyvek tape that some people use with success

Amazon.com : Tyvek Sheathing Tape 2" x 165' : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Also if you are using glue, rubber cement (Elmers $1.49) is not quite the same as vulcanizing fluid. The Elmers type stuff is made to peel off paper. Either will work but the tire specific stuff has other additives to cause cross linking and it sticks better. However, if they sell it at an auto store (Napa, Autozone) or farm store (Farm Fleet, Tractor supply) it may be called rubber cement. They sell Slime brand "rubber cement" made specifically for tires/tubes 8 oz for $5.99. Buying online incurs shipping fee to include "Hazmat" label.


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## Gizzard75 (Aug 8, 2013)

Supplies showed up yesterday so I went to work-

Clownshoe with Bud tire
Removed the surly rimstrip, cleaned it off and put a strip of reflective tape down it and put it back on the rim.

Ran 1 strip of 2" tyvek tape down each side of the rim (not fully in contact with the side of the rim) then I ran a stripe down the center of the rim.

Put the tube back in and pumped her up to 30 psig, left it in for maybe 15 minutes. Left one side of the tire on the rim if felt like the bead was set. Pulled the tube out and put in the orange seal tubeless valve, used the o-rings. 

I messed around for probably an hour trying to get the bead to set- decided after 30 minutes to put the Stan's in since I didnt want to have to break the bead again... Using a strap and a lot of luck I finally got the bastard to air up. Did the stan's shake- couldnt get the tire to hold air so I put it on the bike and rode it around and that seemed to do the trick- aired it up super tight and left it overnight.

This AM the b#tch was flat... pulled off the tire and washed everything off. Going back for round two when I get home.

I am guessing that I need to run the tape closer to the edge of the rim- it was a slow leak so I am going to go back over all the tape too. 

any other suggestions or obvious errors based on my write up??


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## Sasquatch1413 (Nov 6, 2008)

Gizzard75 said:


> any other suggestions or obvious errors based on my write up??


Did you use some soapy water to see where air was leaking out? Its hard to diagnose if you don't know where its leaking.


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## Gizzard75 (Aug 8, 2013)

No, soapy water... thought I had it last night- Will use tonight though so I know if I have it sealed up!


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## Sasquatch1413 (Nov 6, 2008)

Yeah even if it seems everyhing is sealed up and working well, the last thing I always do is spray it down with soapy water to see if there are any slow leaks. 

The sealant may just have not gotten a chance to seal the bead well, you might just need to add more sealant, shake it around a little more and see if it holds air. You may have jumped the gun a little by tearing it all down.


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## Gizzard75 (Aug 8, 2013)

Nothing better than morning rage! Guess it just gives me more practice so my front wheel goes smoothly!


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Has your tape covered the holes on the rim bead ? .... might be escaping from there into the rim join and getting free azza bird.


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## Sandzsteedt (Jan 19, 2013)

One place you really want to tape up is the holes on the bead near the weld seam on the Surly rims. Otherwise you will be trying to plug those with sealant and since the rim has hollow sections it might take ages and way too much sealant.

I've been running Marge Lites with Husker Dus and Escalators for a year now and at the very beginning I tried to seal them with just rubber against the rim bead area. I ended up having lots of slow leaks when the tire was flexing around and concluded that I would have to use a lot of sealant to have them eventually seal so instead I went with a split tube method.

I did experiment with wide gorilla tape that was placed from rim edge to rim edge where the tire had tape between it and the rim without direct contact for the tire to the rim. I found that the gorilla tape is too sticky and difficult to get into place without crimps around the bead area. Those crimps usually resulted in slow leaks, just like the bare rim. 
Wide tape that is easier to get in place and doesn't leave crimps or other leak prone areas might be more successful.

I built up a Clownshoe wheelset for the same Husker and Escalator tires and opted for split tube directly without messing around with other methods. I will be running low pressures on the Clownshoe wheelset for the winter so small burps and slow leaks with a ton of sealant was something I wanted to avoid.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Gizzard75 said:


> I am guessing that I need to run the tape closer to the edge of the rim- it was a slow leak so I am going to go back over all the tape too.
> 
> any other suggestions or obvious errors based on my write up??


I am assuming that you are using Tyvek tape only in order to save weight and that maybe you were able to get it for little or no cost. I really like the gorilla tape and I ran it all the way to the outside of the rim (trimming off excess on outside after pushing it down into the bead area). I've tried tape that is more slick and haven't liked the results. I just put new tape on mine last week because I drilled out some additional holes last week. It airs up and seals perfectly. I have absolutely no issues as mentioned in the earlier post about "crimps" in the tape in the bead area but I pull the tape extremely tight.

I use these down to below 2 psi at times during the winter with no issues.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

After your "Stan's shake" make sure you lay the wheel horizontal (I set mine on my soapy water bucket) as it allows the stans to settle to the tire/rim interface. Visit it about 4 times with 15 minute intervals to give it another shake and set it back horizontal on the opposite side. I've had great luck doing HuDu's and Escalators on Marge Lites and Rolling Darryls.


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## duggus (May 11, 2007)

ozzybmx said:


> Has your tape covered the holes on the rim bead ? .... might be escaping from there into the rim join and getting free azza bird.


I'll second that... this is what gave me trouble first off. What I did is take a hot-glue gun and filled the suckers up. Worked perfectly.


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## Gizzard75 (Aug 8, 2013)

Thanks everyone for the help! I cant wait to leave work to get back at it-


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## Gizzard75 (Aug 8, 2013)

Dont think the tyvek tape is the right stuff for the job. Got home wrapped it all around the outside of the rim and aired it up- getting better at the bead snapping- soaped it up and it was leaking in one spot on the bead and in just about every rim hole- too much. I pulled it all off - tyvek tape sucks to remove btw, tears very easily.

Split tube or Gorilla tape?? Pro's and Con's... I assume that the gorilla tape is lighter and the split tube is easier- which method is more robust? 

I have the tubeless valves so really I am going to go with gorilla tape- although I would prefer schrader valves over prestra... blah going gorilla- thanks again for all your help!

After reading the thread better I think 8898 tape instead of gorilla- for now though I am going to put the tube back in so I can freakin ride my bike!


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Ahhh.... another happy fatbiker with a tubeless fail.

Its a friggin pain-in-the-a$$ going tubeless on fat wheels, worth it once you get it right but hurry up Stans tubeless fat rims I say !!!


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

ozzybmx said:


> Ahhh.... another happy fatbiker with a tubeless fail.
> 
> Its a friggin pain-in-the-a$$ going tubeless on fat wheels, worth it once you get it right but hurry up Stans tubeless fat rims I say !!!


Oh come on ozzy. Most of the fails are people who aren't doing what works. They are trying to skimp and then it doesn't work and it goes down in the books as a fail.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

It took me about 5 goes.... 5 times i had to put the tubes back in to go for a ride.

Its alright for us now as we know what works, but for a noob to tubeless fat rims it can easily take a few attempts. I thought i was a tubeless guru of MTB wheels (tubeless on all bikes since 2008) people used to give me bizarre rim & tyre combos to make tubeless as they had failed but the fat rims still stumped me.... also the time consumed with the failed attempts was massive.


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## Moe Ped (Aug 24, 2009)

*Plug those jigging holes...*

...if your rim has them. Don't count on the tape to do the job; if the tape creeps just a little bit you'll have a helluva leak!

RE filler for same; I've used hot-melt glue, RTV silicone, 5-min 'poxy and JB Weld. All work just fine; even went to the trouble of using microballoon once but what's a couple of grams saved on a fatbike?

I'd even use matchsticks and Gorilla Glue if they were handy (might just try that the next time).

Just did another Large Marge ghetto-style (Gorilla tape) but somebody had absconded with my full roll of wide Gorilla tape so I used one wrap of 1" wide Gorilla over the nipple holes and taped the rest with electrical tape; worked just fine. The type of tape used doesn't seem to be all that critical as long as it's airtight, moisture-resistant and has a good quality adhesive.

The main key for ghetto nirvana is to be sure the tire has been pre-shaped either by running it on a rim with a tube or just letting a tube expand it while off the rim (an afternoon in the backseat of a car parked out in the sun will speed this along)

Also over-filling with whatever kind of sealant you're using helps; the excess can be sucked out later.


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

I have Holy Rolling D's and Husker Du's front and rear. Last spring, I had some time when I wouldn't be riding, so I went for it. I used the folded foam in the middle and gorilla tape on my first one and the damn thing sealed right up- first try! I didn't get the gorilla tape into the bead sockets either. Sweet! I went for my front wheel and have tried damn near every version on here- foam, no foam, gorilla tape in the bead sockets, not in the bead sockets, stans tape in the bead sockets, gorilla tape across the middle, door sealing foam (the tubular foam strips) with gorilla tape, tying a belt around it, tube in with seated beads for a few days, and probably a few other combinations and nothing would do the trick. I've had a tube in it ever since. I plan on going at it again in the next few weeks, but it's nothing as easy as the myriad of rim/tire/ghetto/26/29/700c setups I've done on "skinny" rims. I've not resorted to using the aerosol can method mostly because I want to be able to duplicate the process and not rely on that "extreme" method.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

I guess I didn't have any issues. I looked at the different methods being used and decided how I wanted to approach it. I have played with some different tapes and foam and have what I am comfortable with. It seems that those who don't want to use foam struggle more than those who do. Some of the struggles I have read about recently are caused by: not plugging the holes in the rim, using just the rim strip with no tape, no sealant, and experimenting with various tapes.


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## Armyballer (Aug 30, 2013)

Fatbike Tubeless - YouTube

1. Anyone see something wrong with this method?
2. Any idea what MM rims these are?

I'm considering doing this on my 80mm RD's.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Armyballer said:


> Fatbike Tubeless - YouTube
> 
> 1. Anyone see something wrong with this method?
> 2. Any idea what MM rims these are?
> ...


I believe they are 70mm rims he is using and I have no idea why he is going through all that work on a tubeless ready rim. All that is needed for that rim is one wrap of tape and blow the silly thing up.. As far as the method, there are people using all different variations of basically the same thing.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Armyballer said:


> Fatbike Tubeless - YouTube
> 
> 1. Anyone see something wrong with this method?
> 2. Any idea what MM rims these are?
> ...


It's a method that works but a few comments. First, instead of using soap and water to seat the tire I like to use some Stans (sealant) which helps once the tire is seated to seal the bead of the tire. Second, I like putting the Stans (sealant) directly into the tire before inflating the tire. Third, pumping the tire up with pressure on the bottom of the tire can deform the tire slightly making it a little harder for the air to fill the tire.


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

alshead said:


> I have Holy Rolling D's and Husker Du's front and rear. Last spring, I had some time when I wouldn't be riding, so I went for it. I used the folded foam in the middle and gorilla tape on my first one and the damn thing sealed right up- first try! I didn't get the gorilla tape into the bead sockets either. Sweet! I went for my front wheel and have tried damn near every version on here- foam, no foam, gorilla tape in the bead sockets, not in the bead sockets, stans tape in the bead sockets, gorilla tape across the middle, door sealing foam (the tubular foam strips) with gorilla tape, tying a belt around it, tube in with seated beads for a few days, and probably a few other combinations and nothing would do the trick. I've had a tube in it ever since. I plan on going at it again in the next few weeks, but it's nothing as easy as the myriad of rim/tire/ghetto/26/29/700c setups I've done on "skinny" rims. I've not resorted to using the aerosol can method mostly because I want to be able to duplicate the process and not rely on that "extreme" method.


Hudus are loosey goosey after a decent amount of use so it's not going to air up easy, adding foam is good but it also decreases the surface area where the tape attaches to the rim (too little and pressure pops it off causing endless cutout/spokehole leaks etc.) I have an ongoing battle with my rear wheel ;-)
Would rather air mine up with a floor pump but that means you generally have to use foam (amount of foam required can change as tires change/age).
I grab the kitchen blow torch and can of butane and roast any tire giving me grief, it's easy if you seat one side with a tube then remove tube add valve then blow that ****er up!


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## Gizzard75 (Aug 8, 2013)

alphazz said:


> Oh come on ozzy. Most of the fails are people who aren't doing what works. They are trying to skimp and then it doesn't work and it goes down in the books as a fail.


Doing what everyone else does... does nothing for innovation. Tyvek tape should work and it should be superior to all the other tapes out there. I am doing something wrong, just not sure what it is. It probably comes down to a poor taping job.


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## Armyballer (Aug 30, 2013)

bdundee said:


> I believe they are 70mm rims he is using and I have no idea why he is going through all that work on a tubeless ready rim. All that is needed for that rim is one wrap of tape and blow the silly thing up.. As far as the method, there are people using all different variations of basically the same thing.


So with mine being 80mm....I doubt the tube he uses will work on mine. Yea I know this isn't the lightest method out there but I like the idea of it much better then using all 3m tape. I could care less if my fatbike weights 30pds or 40pds.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

DubzOxford said:


> Does this method work for folding bead tires or only wire bead?


I know this is an old post, but just re-reading the thread.

I've used folding larry & endo, and both folding & wire 45 nrth hudu's all with success. The wire-bead huhu did require sitting on a rim with a tube for over a week to get the bead straight. It pops on nicely now though.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

All this talk about tape method failures is making my ears bleed. I've used tape on my old MTB wheels and it works great but for the Fatties, I'm sold on the split tube method. I've set up two bikes with split tube and the absolute longest it took me to do a tire was 20mins. That was on a Rolling Darryl. The Marge Lites aired up in a heartbeat.
I've also unmounted/remounted the tires with the split tubes and had no issues getting them to air-up.

I pre-fill the tire with Stans, then take the valve core out and use a compressor to push in a constant air stream. Generous brushing of the tire and split tube with a soapy water rag helps make the seal and allows the tire to slide to the bead socket quickly. Once it's holding some air, pop in the valve core and use a hand pump to take it from a couple PSI to about 25PSI and watch as the tire moves into the bead socket with a satisfying "POP". A strap around the tire really helped with the wider Rolling Darryls. After set-up, I take a scissors and slice off the excess tube to within 3/16 of the rim for a nice look.

No worries about making sure all the holes are filled or loosing a bunch of stans into them as they seal up. In fact, the tire-bead to split-tube interface is so tight, I've seen little, if any, stans come through and am confident it will be there ready to seal up holes caused by thorns in my area.

I've used this on HuDu's and Escalators (folding).


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## crashtestdummy (Jun 18, 2005)

Gizzard75 said:


> Doing what everyone else does... does nothing for innovation. Tyvek tape should work and it should be superior to all the other tapes out there. I am doing something wrong, just not sure what it is. It probably comes down to a poor taping job.


I think that the low coefficient of friction for Tyvek might be a problem. I also think that the best tubeless solutions for fat bikes only exist on the internet.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Gizzard75 said:


> Doing what everyone else does... does nothing for innovation. Tyvek tape should work and it should be superior to all the other tapes out there. I am doing something wrong, just not sure what it is. It probably comes down to a poor taping job.


Gizzard, I agree with you on trying new stuff. I haven't tried Tyvek tape. I have tried a few other, what I will call slick tapes, and I haven't liked the way they look after being in the tire for a while with sealant. They don't seem to stay sealed where it overlaps very well.


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## Gizzard75 (Aug 8, 2013)

alphazz said:


> Gizzard, I agree with you on trying new stuff. I haven't tried Tyvek tape. I have tried a few other, what I will call slick tapes, and I haven't liked the way they look after being in the tire for a while with sealant. They don't seem to stay sealed where it overlaps very well.


The overlap near the rim edge is the exact spot that I had the most leaking. I dont think that Tyvek would be a robust enough tape after working with it the past few nights- I like the idea of it though!

After doing more research I think the best solution for me is going to be a split tube set up. Once again thanks for everyone's input!


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Gizzard75 said:


> Dont think the tyvek tape is the right stuff for the job. Got home wrapped it all around the outside of the rim and aired it up- getting better at the bead snapping- soaped it up and it was leaking in one spot on the bead and in just about every rim hole- too much. I pulled it all off - tyvek tape sucks to remove btw, tears very easily.
> 
> Split tube or Gorilla tape?? Pro's and Con's... I assume that the gorilla tape is lighter and the split tube is easier- which method is more robust?
> 
> ...


Gizzard, did you try the Gorilla tape? I have tires with Gorilla tape that have lasted for a long time with no deterioration of the tape. I know it's not the lightest but it works well for me. I run the tape well past the outside of the rim while pulling it VERY tight (step on the bottom of rim as you pull the tape). I push the tape down into the bead area with something smooth and then trim the tape along the outside of the rim.

I agree with you on the schrader valves instead of presta. They are sturdier and easier to work with. The motorcycle shop in town sells the BikeMaster brand of chrome tubeless stems and they have worked well.

I do use foam as well which I think helps with tire staying seated and airing up.

My Clownshoes look like this before tape.


My choice of tape to be seen from the outside. Also, I drilled a lot of extra holes.


Extra Firm self-sticking foam. I trim it a little after applying it.


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## Gizzard75 (Aug 8, 2013)

I haven't decided to go any route just yet; I patched the original tube and threw it back in so I could enjoy some gravel in this fine Indian Summer!- I have some house work to do this weekend so I might have to run to the home improvement store and get supplies... I already have tubeless valves so it makes sense to go the tape route. I thought I read somewhere that foam wasnt needed with clownshoes but if it makes it easier then I am all for it. I guess my main objective is avoiding flats not so much saving weight (not that 10-20 grams of foam is what will be holding me back on a climb!)


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Gizzard, you couldn't drag me back to using tubes. The foam works although it can be tough getting the tire up on it for the first time. I use the Ace brand Super Firm Sponge Tape, 3/8" (T) x 3/4" (W). My setup isn't the lightest but I do put a lot of miles on my bike without issues.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Good job on those rims Alphazz... a bit of time has went into that drilling. I like it !


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks ozzy. Yeah, my son was giving me a hard time about spending too much time drilling, cutting, and grinding on that rim. I think it looks good from the outside.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

As long as mum didn't hear him.... you don't want two of them joining forces and having a whinge 

Turned out well.... weight saved too ?


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

ozzy, I wish I could say I cut a pound out of rim, but I can't. Close to 6 oz. though.


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## Flying_Scotsman (Jul 12, 2011)

Going to give this a try as a double puncture yesterday annoyed me greatly, and I was in the house fixing it!! :nono:

Has anyone in the uk found the 3M 8898 tape anywhere else than Ozzy's link to Farnells?? They have a minimum order limit :madman:

I am also tempted by American Classic valve stems to match my Red & Black theme on the bike!! 

TUBELESS|VALVES


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

I don't like having presta valves on my fat bike, but I do like those American Classic valve stems.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

alphazz said:


> I don't like having presta valves on my fat bike, but I do like those American Classic valve stems.


You might like these:









949 racing black anodized aluminum valve

Also available in grey and silver. No red {sigh}


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Wadester, I've meant to put the 949 valves on my bike but I have been happy with the steel ones I use. I have noticed that the 949 valves are only 8 grams and my chrome steel ones are 18 grams. I am making the switch the next chance I get.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

*Fail*

When I got home from work last night this is what I found:







By the time I got home from my road ride this afternoon the front had gone flat too. The tire bead is still tight on the rim's bead hook, so that's good news, but air and sealant had gotten under my rim tape and and leaked out through the rim holes (and I have plenty of those to leak out of). They held air for a while like this with the Stan's sealing up all those leaks, but I know from working with standard width rims that your sealant set-up has failed if you have any sealant coming out through the spoke holes, which is pretty much the same issue.

I really thought I was on to something, looks like I'm going to have to reevaluate. I tried to basically follow Ozzy's method, but I'm running the Holy Rolling Darryl rather than the Large Marge.

Here's what I did:

I went with pipe insulating foam for 1 3/4" pipe. Its closed-cell foam.








I cut it in half. Less than $3 worth covered both wheels almost perfectly with just a few inches left over from my 6' strip.








And spread it out flat over the bottom of the rim it ends up being just about perfect at 55mm wide. Fit pretty nice and took up a lot of volume, for only 18 grams per wheel!








I got the right tape, 49mm wide, so I figured I could use just 2 strips, one on the left, on on the right with about 15mm of overlap in the middle.








But I had a hard time getting a smooth finish on the rims, you can see a major fail in the lower right. I eventually tore all this tape off and started over. I got a smother finish the second time around, but not without a few minor wrinkles at the rim/tire bead interface.








*So OzzyBMX, how did you get such a smooth finish with your tape?!?*

I'm thinking of trying again with 3 strips of tape. The middle one would just run down the middle of the foam strip, since the foam is about 55mm wide. But maybe it would be a better surface for the two edge tape strips to adhere to, and perhaps also give the middle foam more of a firm surface. That's probably worth 10 grams. But without a really smooth tape job on the sides like Ozzy has, I don't see how it could work.

The other spot I could see air and sealant getting out is around the valve core. On the front wheel I tried using one from an old tube with a nice wide circle of rubber around it to spread out the compressive force. On the rear I used a American Classic valve core, and coupled it with a small sheet (1.5"x2.5") of hard, clear plastic I cut out of some packaging to help spread out the force of the valve stem over more of the surface of the foam. But perhaps this is the wrong approach... perhaps I should try more of a plug style valve stem, like the new WTB valves?


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## Schott (Nov 26, 2012)

^^^i 
I like those.

I thought I would update my tooblessness. I thought it time to put my winter tires back on. I did the front 120 Bud on a holy Darryl up just as I had in the past. Fancy duct tape pattern for the visual, then foam stuck to the backside of that tape, a clear filament tape to hold it down, and a split tube. I had a wicked ***** of a time getting it to seat, even with a tube around the outside and an air compressor, but it did go eventually. Unhappy with it though, the split tube just didn't let it seat as well as I have had it in the past, and it has the dreaded hop...but holding air.

So on the back I decided to go without the tube. I did the same fancy tape, foam on that, then Gorilla tape. It took 3 runs, one on each side on the bead shelf, and one down the middle. I put a tube in, seated one side, put in my homemade valve stem. i dribbled stans around the bead instead of soapy water, and it went right up, boom, no problem, the bead actually popped in. It was running rounder than any fat tire I've had in. Awesome. Did the normal thing, shake, soap, check, shake, soap, check. The holes and spoke holes were a bit leaky, but it will seal.. Next morning, flat, do my thing, shake it. That night, flat. Same thing. 4 day fatty tour coming up in 5 days and I can't hold air more than 12 hours. I kept at it every morning and every night to no avail, but decided to go for the tour, carry a tube (obviously), and just keep an eye on it and air it up when needed. It wasn't needed. The morning the big ride was to start, that silly bastard of a tire was sitting there chock full of air, ready to ride some trails fully loaded. Still a bit nervous on it I ran a little higher pressure than I normally would the first day, 15 or better probably, but by the second day I was sure it was all set, dropped my pressures and the Cush factor held strong through hot days and cold nights for the whole ride, and my stoopid spare toob just weighed me down.

Go ride your bike.









"You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"


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## Flying_Scotsman (Jul 12, 2011)

Well I have found tesa 4289 strapping tape. its only 25mm wide but I got 66 meters on the roll so I can do a few wraps, was on £12.50 from eBay. 

Now for foam, like the look of the pipe lagging, no need for multiple layers, might grab a couple of lengths and then I am ready to rock n roll!


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Fishman, I think your method looks good. I think even your plastic around the valve stem is a good idea since you are running some thick foam down the middle.

A couple of ideas:

Are you putting the plastic between the foam and the tape? That's where I would put it, taping over the top of the plastic (hopefully the edges of the plastic won't be too rough on the tape).

Second, don't be afraid to stand on your rim while pulling the tape VERY tight, it helps to prevent wrinkles.

Third, I really like gorilla tape. After taking mine apart, I've not found any areas where the tape seams are failing. I have with other tapes.

Fourth, I agree with you on the strip down the middle for more overlap. 15mm is probably not enough with it being over the top of the foam.

Fifth, Schott is right, use Stans around the bead instead of soapy water.

Sixth, you are correct, Ozzy did a great job on his tape. He's probably a really strong guy who pulled the tape extremely tight.


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## Flying_Scotsman (Jul 12, 2011)

Ozzy / Alphazz, what do you think the chances of inflating the tire (or Tyre to me  ) without the foam?? I was thinking of popping the tyre onto the bead with a tube first like you have described Ozzy, taking the tube out, pouring in the stan's then compressor onto it and try to do it that way?? 

Or even as I have seen done in another thread, a bit propane into it and light it like the 4x4 boys do?? :thumbsup:

I am running Marge Lite's and 3.8 knard's so not got 5 inches of rubber to deal with!!


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

Foam is pointless if your using propane and your very unlikely to need it if you have a compressor.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Flying_Scotsman said:


> Ozzy / Alphazz, what do you think the chances of inflating the tire (or Tyre to me  ) without the foam?? I was thinking of popping the tyre onto the bead with a tube first like you have described Ozzy, taking the tube out, pouring in the stan's then compressor onto it and try to do it that way??
> 
> Or even as I have seen done in another thread, a bit propane into it and light it like the 4x4 boys do?? :thumbsup:
> 
> I am running Marge Lite's and 3.8 knard's so not got 5 inches of rubber to deal with!!


It's not just getting the tire to seat initially, which has an art to it, it's making sure the tire will stay seated at the low pressures that some of us want to run.


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## duggus (May 11, 2007)

OFFcourse said:


> Foam is pointless if your using propane and your very unlikely to need it if you have a compressor.


I found this to be not true. I did one clownshoe without foam and one with foam and the one without was a major pain in the a s s to get even started inflating. Ended up taking it apart and adding foam.


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## Flying_Scotsman (Jul 12, 2011)

OFFcourse said:


> Foam is pointless if your using propane and your very unlikely to need it if you have a compressor.


Ok, no foam it is then!! Just need to wait for the bits to turn up!! :thumbsup:


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Flying_Scotsman said:


> Ok, no foam it is then!! Just need to wait for the bits to turn up!! :thumbsup:


Do let us know how that works for you. (Pictures are nice.)


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

I haven't done clown shoes but everything is going to seat with propane and a lighter and if you seat one side with a tube it's got to be a seriously loose tire to not go up with a compressor. I don't run under 5psi very often but I get the impression most people are using foam for help with initial inflation, (because they only have access to a floor pump - like me) you would need to use a denser foam (like posted above) for it to offer any benefit beyond seating the bead.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Tight tape.... pull tight until your hands bleed 

You'll need the tightness to stop the sealant and air getting below your tape.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Flying_Scotsman said:


> Ozzy / Alphazz, what do you think the chances of inflating the tire (or Tyre to me  ) without the foam?? I was thinking of popping the tyre onto the bead with a tube first like you have described Ozzy, taking the tube out, pouring in the stan's then compressor onto it and try to do it that way??


I have recently got a HuDu onto a marge lite but using a tube then taking it out, then relied on gravity to help the other bead on. The tyre was in there for about a week at 25psi beforehand so it was in the general shape it needed to be in.

Im looking forward to Stans fatbike rims !


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

Schott said:


> ^^^i
> ... I had a wicked ***** of a time getting it to seat, even with a tube around the outside and an air compressor, but it did go eventually. Unhappy with it though, the split tube just didn't let it seat as well as I have had it in the past, and it has the dreaded hop...but holding air....


I've used split tubes on several tires now and after airing it up with a compressor, I use a hand pump to slowly take to up to 25 or 30lbs and the beads have popped-in every time, both sides. Then I immediately take it down to riding a pressure of 8-10 lbs. No wheel hop and once seated on a split tube, that tire is not coming off regardless of how low the pressure. That tire stays seated tight-tight in the bead groove and I have found it is actually quite tough to break it off the bead when it's time to change the Stan's.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

tjdog800 said:


> I've used split tubes on several tires now and after airing it up with a compressor, I use a hand pump to slowly take to up to 25 or 30lbs and the beads have popped-in every time, both sides. Then I immediately take it down to riding a pressure of 8-10 lbs. No wheel hop and once seated on a split tube, that tire is not coming off regardless of how low the pressure. That tire stays seated tight-tight in the bead groove and I have found it is actually quite tough to break it off the bead when it's time to change the Stan's.


Yep, that's been my experience too. Once it's seated and holding, I sneak it up a little at a time, watching the low spot, and as soon as it seats, drop it down.

Bead "lock" and air retention are fantastic.


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

I tried all the other methods first to no avail. Originally I was trying to set up BFL's on Clownshoes. The bike now has NATE's on Clownshoes. The tire/rim bead interface just has too much gap. The split tube makes up the difference. Not only did the tires mount easily, they aired up with a hand pump. I have set the pressure from 4 psi to 15 psi and no leaks, no loss of pressure. As soon as the new bike arrives I will do it again with Bud/Lou on a Shoe.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

ozzybmx said:


> Tight tape.... pull tight until your hands bleed
> 
> You'll need the tightness to stop the sealant and air getting below your tape.


I don't know if this has been mentioned but I use a hairdryer to heat the tape ever so slightly, it just helps it to conform and make it a little more pliable at least for fat Stans and tapes like it.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

gcappy said:


> The tire/rim bead interface just has too much gap. The split tube makes up the difference.


Just curious. I still have a lot of bead play, even with the tube. Are you running foam too?

I found that a cheapo rubber 26" rim strip around the outside of the tire, settles the tire inward a touch, all around, and allows for a more uniform bead seating. It's allowed me to do them without the foam, easily, but with a compressor. Still nowhere near tight enough to seat with a floor pump.

Wondering if your floor pump is about 6' high


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

bdundee said:


> I don't know if this has been mentioned but I use a hairdryer to heat the tape ever so slightly, it just helps it to conform and make it a little more pliable at least for fat Stans and tapes like it.


This sounds like a good idea for smoother tape and for adhesion.



> I tried all the other methods first to no avail. Originally I was trying to set up BFL's on Clownshoes.


I've ran a couple different BFL's on Clownshoes this summer with no issues.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

bdundee said:


> I don't know if this has been mentioned but I use a hairdryer to heat the tape ever so slightly, it just helps it to conform and make it a little more pliable at least for fat Stans and tapes like it.


Do you warm it up before you apply it or do you do it after its applied to smooth out the wrinkles like shrink-wrap?


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

*Split tube, Holy Rolling Daryls and Husker Du's*

Finally got this setup to work. The split tube is the key.

1) Picked up a 24x 2.4-2.75 presta tube (QTubes)
2) Pink foam from Home Depot for building up the center channel

Foam tape Folded in 1/2 and wrapped around (Surly rim strip in place):







Foam taped into place with piece of 3" Gorilla Tape:







24x2.4-2.75 QTube inflated lightly into place:







Tube Split. You have to take a wet rag/ towel and clean all of the powder residue out of the tube:







Still wouldn't seat up- you can see how big the gap is.







A second layer of foam- this time, laid flat across the rim, taped in place above the valve hole, and then trimmed to just inside where the bead socket starts (top of channel):







Putting the tire back on was a bit challenging and required some tire-lever assistance while pulling down on the edge of the split tube to keep it from folding under, but once on, it aired right up with no issues.







Sealant (my own mix) inserted and split tube trimmed.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

I'm sure split-tube is functional, but to me it offers no advantages. It weighs more than a 2.5-3.0 mtb tube (without sealant), is harder to set-up than tubes and harder to repair in the field. I understand if you ride in a thorny area, but for me its taped or bust.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

alshead said:


> Finally got this setup to work. The split tube is the key.
> 
> 1) Picked up a 24x 2.4-2.75 presta tube (QTubes)
> 2) Pink foam from Home Depot for building up the center channel
> ...


Good pictorial! It didn't look like you were using soapy water on the tube & tire. For me, that made all the difference when trying to get it aired-up. Did it foam-less too.

Once trimmed, the weight penalty of having a tube-rim-strip is not any worse than most tape jobs. Especially Gorilla tape.


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

I tried soapy water when I had just one layer of foam in, also tried running a strap around the tube to air it up, but neither worked- dunno if you're on RD's, but the center channel just swallows up the tire bead and, for me, I couldn't overcome that gap with anything other than more foam. 

My rear rim was done with foam and gorilla tape, but this front one wouldn't seat up with the same technique. Split tube did the trick. 

We don't have a ton of thorns, some goat heads and the like, but the bigger issue for me has been pinch flats with the tubes at low psi. At this rate, the split tube can't weigh much more than two runs of gorilla tape (which you need to do if you're trying to get it up into the bead sockets) and, most importantly, it worked.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Taping. With Gorilla tape, I always go around the rim, holding the bottom of the rim to the floor with my feet, keeping tension on the roll of tape - but specifically getting the edge of the tape into the bead seat area. Since this means the edge is passing under the bead hook, you have to keep pulling the roll towards the inside to get the tape under the hook, then moving ahead with applying the tape to the bead seat. I get maybe 1/2" to an inch every cycle - but the result is smooth application to the whole bottom of the bead seat area. 

I note that I do not push the rest of the tape into place as I am doing this. Once you've gone completely around the rim - tape smooth and sealed in the bead seat - then you go around pressing the rest of the tape into place. And not all at once, either. Going around about a thumb width at a time making sure things are laying flat is well worth the effort.

I'm working on 100's, either USC or Clownshoes. I use regular Gorilla Tape (1.88" wide) on one bead and "tough and wide" GT (2.88" wide) on the other for about 3/4" overlap. I put down the wide tape first, then the regular so the exposed tape edge is as far from where the tire bead will wipe over it as possible.


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Just curious. I still have a lot of bead play, even with the tube. Are you running foam too?
> 
> I found that a cheapo rubber 26" rim strip around the outside of the tire, settles the tire inward a touch, all around, and allows for a more uniform bead seating. It's allowed me to do them without the foam, easily, but with a compressor. Still nowhere near tight enough to seat with a floor pump.
> 
> Wondering if your floor pump is about 6' high


MCS, here is my procedure for NATE's on Clownshoes/
Install Surly rim strip:
Install Q-Tube, 24 x 2.75, inflate a little, straighten the seam, slit all the way around with scissor, wipe off powder:
Install NATE:
Tie a rope around NATE and tighten enough to push tire out to bead area:
Inflate with normal hand pump until tire bead seats:
Remove valve core and add Stans, re-install valve core, pump to desired pressure:
Trim off excess Q-Tube:
Ride!

NO foam, no tape, no problem!


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

FishMan473 said:


> I'm sure split-tube is functional, but to me it offers no advantages. It weighs more than a 2.5-3.0 mtb tube (without sealant), is harder to set-up than tubes and harder to repair in the field. I understand if you ride in a thorny area, but for me its taped or bust.


Fish, the main reason for tubeless is to not have flat issues "in the field". Fat tubeless is totally different than any other tubeless tire application. In fact, I haven't heard anyone on here saying that they have had any flat issues in the field if they have a successful tubeless setup.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I shouldn't even say anything, but I have yet to deal with flatting in the wild. 

If flats aren't really a concern, would tubeless be worth the trouble? Some say the ride quality and tire profile at lower psi is improved.


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

alphazz said:


> Fish, the main reason for tubeless is to not have flat issues "in the field". Fat tubeless is totally different than any other tubeless tire application. In fact, I haven't heard anyone on here saying that they have had any flat issues in the field if they have a successful tubeless setup.


I mentioned this in another post a while ago. I was washing the bikes after a ride and I found a very large thorn sticking out of my wife's front Nate. I got the pliers out and pulled it out. A small pin head sized spot of Stan's appeared and that was that. If the tire had a tube in it I would have been fixing it out in the field with the Mosquitos eating me alive.


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## Katz (Jan 29, 2012)

jonshonda said:


> If flats aren't really a concern, would tubeless be worth the trouble? Some say the ride quality and tire profile at lower psi is improved.


I did tubeless conversion on my Fatty recently. I went tubeless because the sealant I've been using successfully on my regular MTB tires failed to seal a few small goathead punctures, presumably due to the 2.7" tubes stretched excessively. Those supposed improvements in traction/ride quality, if there was any, were my secondary concerns. I seldom ride on soft surface so I've been running 15 psi in tubes.

After the conversion, tires definitely feel more pliable at the same pressure. It is almost as if I can feel each knob on the rear tire grabbing dirt as I start pedaling. Up front, it made the sidewall flex more than I like under cornering, so I ended up bumping up the pressure a little.

It made big enough differences that I converted one of my regular MTBs to tubeless this past weekend. I noticed similar improvement, but not quite as pronounced as I experienced on fat tires.

To me, it was well worth a couple hours of work. YMMV.

One thing I don't know of is how well Stan's and other sealant work in sub-freezing temperature. It's not much of a concern for me (southwest resident), but it could possibly be a problem for people living up north.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

Katz said:


> ...One thing I don't know of is how well Stan's and other sealant work in sub-freezing temperature. It's not much of a concern for me (southwest resident), but it could possibly be a problem for people living up north.


Stan's says: "Special anti-freeze agents allow the sealant to be used in environments as cold as -30° F."
I haven't ridden that cold but never had any issues in sub-freezing temps.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

FishMan473 said:


> It weighs more than a 2.5-3.0 mtb tube (without sealant).


Curious how a 24x2.75 tube with ~1/3 of it's body cut off, weighs more than a tube you mention???

Obviously, this is garage level choices we're talking about here, no one is making a dime on it or selling their own product over another, I just get to wondering where folks get these ideas from is all...


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

tjdog800 said:


> Stan's says: "Special anti-freeze agents allow the sealant to be used in environments as cold as -30° F."
> I haven't ridden that cold but never had any issues in sub-freezing temps.


Happily ridden Stans into the sub zero range on many occasions over the years, no issues.....


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## Katz (Jan 29, 2012)

tjdog800 said:


> Stan's says: "Special anti-freeze agents allow the sealant to be used in environments as cold as -30° F."
> I haven't ridden that cold but never had any issues in sub-freezing temps.





MendonCycleSmith said:


> Happily ridden Stans into the sub zero range on many occasions over the years, no issues.....


Good to know. Thanks guys.

Where I live (southwest), sealant drying is a bigger concern. I've been using 50/50 mixture of Stan's and Slime ATV. This seems to last longer than straight Stan's.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

gcappy said:


> I mentioned this in another post a while ago. I was washing the bikes after a ride and I found a very large thorn sticking out of my wife's front Nate. I got the pliers out and pulled it out. A small pin head sized spot of Stan's appeared and that was that. If the tire had a tube in it I would have been fixing it out in the field with the Mosquitos eating me alive.


Yeah, and how much fun is that?



> jonshonda
> I shouldn't even say anything, but I have yet to deal with flatting in the wild.
> 
> If flats aren't really a concern, would tubeless be worth the trouble? Some say the ride quality and tire profile at lower psi is improved.


For me it would be. The ability to ride with extremely low pressures while winter riding on marginally groomed trails without pinch flatting is just as important. I've ridden in some very adverse weather that if I had to stop to fix a flat, it might have been life threatening.


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## exp18 (Feb 15, 2012)

I have been adding a little cold weather window washing fluid every couple of months or so to my tubeless tires. When i have removed my tire the sealant is nice and wet, when i have not add fluid it starts to dry up and i also have slow leaks. i have riden in below 0 F with 3 or 4 psi with this mix of sealant and washer fluid with no problems. i can not remember if i have rode in same condition with just strait sealant with my tubeless set up.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Katz said:


> Good to know. Thanks guys.
> 
> Where I live (southwest), sealant drying is a bigger concern. I've been using 50/50 mixture of Stan's and Slime ATV. This seems to last longer than straight Stan's.


Antifreeze in the form of either ethylene glycol (toxic/poisonous) or propylene glycol (nontoxic) is a major ingredient in most tire sealants. Both Stan's and Slime have propylene glycol in them - but not just for the antifreeze properties - either glycol has a very low vapor pressure, meaning it evaporates very slowly.

Lot's of folks add windshield washer fluid, but that's not just one thing. Some of it is ammonia based, some is alcohol based, and some is just detergent. It's all formulated to not freeze solid in your vehicle's washer fluid jug, but if you run a latex sealant, ammonia helps the latex stay liquid - until it's coming thru a hole and drying out.

{edit} You can read thru best-tubeless-brew thread for info. My DIY sealant recipe usually goes for about 12 months in southern NM.


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## Katz (Jan 29, 2012)

^Uh-oh, we got a scientist in the house! :lol: 

I'll check out the thread (holy crap, 97 pages :eekster and try your recipe for the next batch. Thanks for the tip!


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

@wadester I've been keeping away from that thread because it's nice to have a few things still done for me aka. stans but.....
DIY sealant is it going to save me a few bones over stans?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

OFFcourse said:


> @wadester I've been keeping away from that thread because it's nice to have a few things still done for me aka. stans but.....
> DIY sealant is it going to save me a few bones over stans?


It is cheaper to make - but you make up bigger batches, so there is more of an investment. It also lasts longer than Stan's - up to 4 times as long, so it's cheaper that way too.

Pint of mold builder is $10-15, cheapo antifreeze tends to come in gallons, for $5-10, propylene glycol you have to hunt for, $10/pt. Slime is easy chunkulation, I got a gallon for $30 a loong time ago - but I see 24oz for $10. See how it adds up?

I keep mine in a sealed container, and it's good to the last drop - no wastage, and you do go thru it over time. You will have to buy more materials than you need for one batch, but again - you do go thru it over time.

I used to use an 80oz glass pickle jar, but my basic recipe is 80oz - so it was hard to get the last bit stirred. Now I have a Rubbermaid Mixermate gallon pitcher with room to shake - but I guess a gallon glass jar would be just as good.


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## k.b. (Dec 28, 2006)

exp18 said:


> I have been adding a little cold weather window washing fluid every couple of months or so to my tubeless tires. When i have removed my tire the sealant is nice and wet, when i have not add fluid it starts to dry up and i also have slow leaks. i have riden in below 0 F with 3 or 4 psi with this mix of sealant and washer fluid with no problems. i can not remember if i have rode in same condition with just strait sealant with my tubeless set up.


exp18;
I have seen quite a few of your posts regarding different setups that you have tried. Could you summarize, compare and contrast all of your experiences in one post? I have seen you do split tube glued to the inside of the tire with no sealant needed, have you tried split tube glued to the outside of the tire? Anyway I also see you have used 8 wraps of shrink wrap with no sealant needed, now I see you are using sealant with windshield washer fluid. What is the ultimate setup and why? Thanks for sharing your varied experiences.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

I could run my tubeless setups with little or no extra sealant in the tire but the purpose of having the sealant in the tire is flat prevention from punctures and sealing the walls of the tire as it breaks down due to riding it at very low pressure during some winter rides.

I have been on numerous rides this summer with people running tubes where they flatted and I haven't had a problem. The last time was just a couple of weeks ago and I noticed I had goatheads in my tires after another person flatted. I pulled mine out and never had a problem.


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## Katz (Jan 29, 2012)

On my On-One Floaters, I can see the sealant seeping through the sidewalls here and there, though they are holding air pressure (15+) just fine. These tires aren't that much heavier (sometimes lighter) than most 2.5" downhill tires, so I'm not very surprised how thin the sidewalls are. 

Can't speak for other fat tires, but running sealant is mandatory on these tires if you run them tubeless IMO.


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## E6roller (Apr 3, 2013)

k.b. said:


> exp18;
> I have seen quite a few of your posts regarding different setups that you have tried. Could you summarize, compare and contrast all of your experiences in one post? I have seen you do split tube glued to the inside of the tire with no sealant needed, have you tried split tube glued to the outside of the tire? Anyway I also see you have used 8 wraps of shrink wrap with no sealant needed, now I see you are using sealant with windshield washer fluid. What is the ultimate setup and why? Thanks for sharing your varied experiences.


I would also like to hear what exp18 has to say about his tubeless experiences.

.....with pictures, too!!! Thanks.


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## exp18 (Feb 15, 2012)

I will do a update on the things I have tried probably tomorrow. It’s crazy busy this time of year at work, snow is coming soon!


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

Katz said:


> On my On-One Floaters, I can see the sealant seeping through the sidewalls here and there, though they are holding air pressure (15+) just fine. These tires aren't that much heavier (sometimes lighter) than most 2.5" downhill tires, so I'm not very surprised how thin the sidewalls are.


Wow downhill tires weight more than 1.5kg **** that!


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## k.b. (Dec 28, 2006)

exp18 said:


> I will do a update on the things I have tried probably tomorrow. It's crazy busy this time of year at work, snow is coming soon!


I am going to start my diet tomorrow too. ;-)


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Curious how a 24x2.75 tube with ~1/3 of it's body cut off, weighs more than a tube you mention???
> 
> Obviously, this is garage level choices we're talking about here, no one is making a dime on it or selling their own product over another, I just get to wondering where folks get these ideas from is all...


That 24" tube plus sealant is heavier than a 26x2.6" tube without sealant.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

FishMan473 said:


> That 24" tube plus sealant is heavier than a 26x2.6" tube without sealant.


Foul! I've reduced (but not by much) the weight of my wheelset by removing the lightweight Q-Tubes I originally used and replacing them with split and trimmed 24" Q-Tubes and 2 scoops of Stan's. And I get flat protection to boot!


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

Relax man. For one, I'd be interested in some numbers if you have indeed lost some weight on your wheels with the split tube method.

However, there are a lot of nits we can pick here. On the one hand, I don't think the Q-Tubes UL 26x2.4-2.7" are actually durable enough for regular use on a fat bike. Mine came apart at the seams on me. So for me, the baseline I'm working off of is the more durable Specalized 26x2.3-3.0 tubes that weigh in at 279 grams.

On the other hand, well I don't know how much a 24" tube that has had some of the rubber cut off weighs, maybe 200 grams? But some of those standard 24" tubes weigh more than the UL 26" tube so maybe its more.

Also, I figure you need at least 3 scoops of sealant since a fat bike tire has about double the surface area of a standard tire... most people are using 3 scoops, which seems a little suspect to me, but lets use it as a baseline at 90 grams.

Then add in some foam to allow the tire to air up (I have almost a 1/2" gap with my Rolling Dayrlls and Escalators, no way that my combination would air up without filling the gap a bit). Put it together, and its probably roughly the same. Again, I'd like some numbers on what you did though, I'm just estimating here. In particular, I'd like to know what that split tube weighs once you cut it down, and if you're using an ultra light model or a standard model (will a lightweight 24" tube even work?)

For me, the flat protection is a non-issue since I ride 90% of my miles on snow and the only flats I have gotten so far were from the tubes coming apart at the seams. Lower rolling resistance, more float and lighter weight are the issues that matter to me.

Honestly, unless I can save a reasonable amount of weight the hassle of making it tubeless, maintaining it, and possibly swapping tires with a bunch of sealant in them probably isn't worth it to me... but I'd like to try and see if I can. I'm going to give it a second try with the tape tomorrow. When I pull the tape from the first attempt I'll weigh it with a valve stem to see what it weighs so we can compare.... and hopefully I'll have some positive results to share as well.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

I've used the split tube method with HuDu's on holy Rolling Darryls and Escalators on Marge Lites, both without tape or foam. Granted, I use a soapy water and a compressor to initially get the tires to seat, replace the valve, and then slowly hand pump the tires until the beads pop into the seat which usually occurs at about 25psi. Then I immediately reduce it to riding pressure. The tube/bead interface is tight and lightweight tubes work great. I've had them keep aired up several days *without sealant*. That's why I only use two scoops and have had no issues on two different fatbikes for a year now and have been riding trails all summer long.

Regarding performance, It's proven that losing the tube does indeed reduce rolling resistance as there is no scrubbing between the tube and tire which is especially true at the lower psi run in fat tires. Also, even at the same weights, it is easier to get a fat tire rolling without the weight of the tube at the extremities of the wheel circumference. The sealant weight doesn't spread to the tire extremities until the wheel gains some speed.

How significant are the advantages, who knows? But the physics are favorable.


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## exp18 (Feb 15, 2012)

Yes k b time to start your diet. I have tried quite a few different way of doing tubeless. My original intent was to run tubeless without the use of sealant. I like the way tubeless rolls and we do not have the puncture problem here in AK. like some places. But I came to the same conclusion as a post I read earlier ( I can’t remember who posted it ) that the tires we use was not designed for tubeless, so there for the tire itself leaks and you need sealant for that if nothing else. I could not find a way that consistently did not need sealant anyway. Also I find that the tires we use very in quality and size, that changes things that work and don’t work. 
I started out trying out the tape and sealant method. I found that my tires would leak down to 3 or 4 psi after a couple of days. I normally run my tires on hard pack about 8 in the rear and 6 in the front and if I am on the road I run 15 on the rear and 10 in front. I know a lot of people thinks that’s more psi than you need but that work for me. But at that pressure you will need to add air about every 4 hrs. or so with the tape method. 
2nd I did the spilt tube method it works great even at the higher pressures, but if you trim the tube it is near impossible to re-use the tube when changing tires. So I did the glue the split tube to the tire method this works but again when you go to re-mount the tire the tube will catch on the bead of the rim and will ether pull the tube away from the tire or you can just not get it out. Either way it will cause it to leak there.
3rd I did the shrink wrap method with the foam tape applied to the bead of the tire. I first tried the shrink warp without sealant and foam tape. Sometime it worked good and sometime not so good. So I added the foam tape to help with the inconsistences I was having form tire to tire. But as I said earlier to stop the slow leaks I had to use sealant. I am still using this method. I would like to find a method that is a little easier to change tires. 
I have a different method that I have been run on the rear tire for a little while now but it is going to be a little heavier than the shrink wrap method. I am using a tape that is for commercial membrane roofing repairs its expensive about a $100 for a 50ft roll. Its 6” wide and has a vinyl top with a 16th inch thick rubber adhesive. It sealed very well with a couple of scoops of sealant, I have not had to add air in a couple of weeks. If I can change tires without changing the tape I think it will be the best one for me.


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## k.b. (Dec 28, 2006)

exp18 said:


> Yes k b time to start your diet. I have tried quite a few different way of doing tubeless. My original intent was to run tubeless without the use of sealant. I like the way tubeless rolls and we do not have the puncture problem here in AK. like some places. But I came to the same conclusion as a post I read earlier ( I can't remember who posted it ) that the tires we use was not designed for tubeless, so there for the tire itself leaks and you need sealant for that if nothing else. I could not find a way that consistently did not need sealant anyway. Also I find that the tires we use very in quality and size, that changes things that work and don't work.
> I started out trying out the tape and sealant method. I found that my tires would leak down to 3 or 4 psi after a couple of days. I normally run my tires on hard pack about 8 in the rear and 6 in the front and if I am on the road I run 15 on the rear and 10 in front. I know a lot of people thinks that's more psi than you need but that work for me. But at that pressure you will need to add air about every 4 hrs. or so with the tape method.
> 2nd I did the spilt tube method it works great even at the higher pressures, but if you trim the tube it is near impossible to re-use the tube when changing tires. So I did the glue the split tube to the tire method this works but again when you go to re-mount the tire the tube will catch on the bead of the rim and will ether pull the tube away from the tire or you can just not get it out. Either way it will cause it to leak there.
> 3rd I did the shrink wrap method with the foam tape applied to the bead of the tire. I first tried the shrink warp without sealant and foam tape. Sometime it worked good and sometime not so good. So I added the foam tape to help with the inconsistences I was having form tire to tire. But as I said earlier to stop the slow leaks I had to use sealant. I am still using this method. I would like to find a method that is a little easier to change tires.
> I have a different method that I have been run on the rear tire for a little while now but it is going to be a little heavier than the shrink wrap method. I am using a tape that is for commercial membrane roofing repairs its expensive about a $100 for a 50ft roll. Its 6" wide and has a vinyl top with a 16th inch thick rubber adhesive. It sealed very well with a couple of scoops of sealant, I have not had to add air in a couple of weeks. If I can change tires without changing the tape I think it will be the best one for me.


Thanks so much exp18, I feel skinnier just reading your prose!  I had backtracked a few of your posts to see you had tried various methods. Your varied experience is way more valuable to me than people with huge opinions and miniscule data (and probably something else that is small too).

So anyway, my assessment of the situation comes down to this:
1.	Fatbike tubeless is different than other bikes due to the low pressure often used. Lower pressure can cause more friction between the tube and tire, necessitating a tubeless methodology for lower rolling resistance.
2.	Currently available tires and tire manufacturing variations seem to require some sort of fluid to stop leaks thru the sidewalls.
3.	The Saran wrap method seals the rim well, but the interface of the tire and rim needs some moldable, pliant material to prevent leaks at that boundary layer.

I think I am ready to put my tires on a diet now!


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## exp18 (Feb 15, 2012)

Great summary k b you can tell I am not a tech writer in my day job but hope it helps


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## racefit (Aug 26, 2010)

Anybody know if a 26 X 1.9/2.1 tube will work on a Clownshoe with split tube?


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

A little OT, but if you are running tubes, its an old roadie trick to use talcum powder (baby powder) on your tubes and inner liner of your tire. Get them nice and powdery and it will reduce friction between the tube and the tire casing. Also someone once told me it reduces the incidents of flats, but I'm not sure how.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

racefit said:


> Anybody know if a 26 X 1.9/2.1 tube will work on a Clownshoe with split tube?


It will fit loosely, so it's not ideal, but it will *work*.....


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

racefit said:


> Anybody know if a 26 X 1.9/2.1 tube will work on a Clownshoe with split tube?





MendonCycleSmith said:


> It will fit loosely, so it's not ideal, but it will *work*.....


Always used 24s myself with good results. Never tried a 26.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

I've tried 29er tubes on a 29er rim and it was really hard to get the tube to sit correctly and to get the tire over the top. The tube kept slipping around, I would stick to a size down.


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

racefit said:


> Anybody know if a 26 X 1.9/2.1 tube will work on a Clownshoe with split tube?


Q-Tube 24 x 2.75 is the way to go there. Nice and tight with plenty of excess to hold on to while working the tire on. Trim or not after, your choice.


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

Schott said:


> I've got lots of useful tips for you, but since you made a completely derogatory comment in your post, I refuse to help you.
> 
> "You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"


+1!!


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

Wow sheltered life/country I had to urban dictionary that one to confirm it's meaning!


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## I like bicycles. (Sep 19, 2013)

Schott said:


> I've got lots of useful tips for you, but since you made a completely derogatory comment in your post, I refuse to help you.
> 
> "You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"


Congratulations. I already got some knowledgable input on it anyways.


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## crashtestdummy (Jun 18, 2005)

MiniTrail said:


> I won't ding him but he deserves it
> 
> "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Schott again."


I had no problem with either.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

I realize that sometimes people might come off as arrogant or as if we know everything and I think that many of us don't mean to be that way. There are those of us who do a lot of riding and have come up with methods that work for various things, including tubeless, but often people don't want to listen to those who have the knowledge being asked about. It is sometimes frustrating.

I've always found Schott to be pretty reasonable and he has some usable knowledge.


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

Thank you mod's. If we delete curse words we certainly should delete racist comments!


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## evan yo! (Jul 11, 2007)

Got my front wheel (Husker Du on Rolling Darryl) set up tonight using sill seal and Gorilla Tape. Being used to using Stan's yellow tape on my other bikes, I got the foam and tape installed on Sunday and let it sit with an inflated tube inside to help set the tape. When I continued the process tonight I found the foam had collapsed and I remembered a mention in this thread (?) about that happening between setting it up and changing the tire later. I ripped out the foam and tape, applied new materials, and followed the rest of the instructions. I only had about 5 ounces of Stan's left, so I dumped that in. I hope that's enough, but I need to pick up another bottle anyway. We'll see how long it takes me to get around to the back wheel.

Thanks for all the info, especially to the fatties who took the time to figure it all out so I could do it in an evening.


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## Schott (Nov 26, 2012)

Didn't mean to rock the boat. Just standing up for what is right. Back on topic, my tape only tubeless went soft this week while I rode my mariachi, I think it was jealous, as the rides were perfect. Guess I need to ride it more.


"You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

evan said:


> ...using sill seal and Gorilla Tape. Being used to using Stan's yellow tape on my other bikes, I got the foam and tape installed on Sunday and let it sit with an inflated tube inside to help set the tape. ...


Using Gorilla tape, I don't really see a need to put a tube in to compress the seams. Not that it hurts, but I've done it both ways and have taken a lot of them apart later and it doesn't seem necessary if the tape overlaps sufficiently and has been applied with tension.
It just creates another step.


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## evan yo! (Jul 11, 2007)

Yeah, I realized that after the first trial. Second time 'round I used the tube to seat the beads at about 25psi then removed it immediately before the foam could compress. I was able to seat the remaining bead with a floor pump.

I didn't measure the pressure this morning, but there was still plenty of air in it. Before the Stan's there was some air coming out of one of the spoke holes next to the valve. Shaking the wheel sealed it up.

FWIW, I'm using an old DT Swiss tubeless valve because I had it laying around. I'm a little worried that the rubber foot on the base isn't very large and that tightening it too much may rip through the tape. This may be a non-issue depending on how much the foam compresses under normal use.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

*tape and foam FAIL, part 2*

Well, as you can see in the photo below, my second attempt at foam+tape went a lot smoother than the first, literally.

Unfortunately the project was another fail. The deal breaker is that the sealant is leaking around the valve stem. Since the ammonia in the Stan's sealant dissolves this closed-cell foam, as soon as any sealant leaks out into the foam, the foam starts breaking down and game over.

OzzyBMX: how did you seal up your valve hole?

Another issue is that this foam is too thick and 3-dimensional. Its a pain to install an the tire gets REALLY tight, its hard to fit it on. So maybe this could work if I could find another source of material to fill in the middle of the rim, but other than that I'm dead in the water.

Last issue is that the tape seems kind of flimsy on the bead hook, and though I think it would work for a few tires installs, I'm thinking of having 2 sets of tires this winter, and I'm guessing that swapping back and forth would create damage that would require re-taping more often than I would like.

What do people have for suggestions for space fillers that don't dissolve in ammonia? I'm going to need _something_ other than the foam I'm using, even if I go to split tube.


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## Katz (Jan 29, 2012)

I used 3 layers of this one. The material seems to be identical to weatherstripping material you find at auto parts stores.

EPDM foam

I have no idea how resistant it is to ammonia. It's been a little over two weeks since I did tubeless conversion on my Fatty and there's no noticeable/visible leak thus far (other than from thin spots on the sidewall).

This foam is adhesive backed. Applying the first layer was tricky, as it's VERY sticky to aluminum and the foam tears easily if you try to peel it off. 2nd and 3rd layers were easy to do, and the foam stays in place as you apply tape over them.


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

I used this stuff:








Owens Corning FOAMULAR 1/4 in. x 5-1/2 in. x 50 ft. FoamSealR-2FS at The Home Depot

And a split tube for the HRD's with HD's. The split tube was the key. I tried different foams and different tapes (both gorilla and the fat blue tape you have). Split tube was really quite easy in comparison. Not sure why you'd still need a different foam if you're doing split tube. If you do split tube, the sealant should never come into contact with your foam, no matter what you're using.


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## Chader09 (Aug 14, 2013)

Foam for split tube may still help get the initial seal if the rim profile is too deep to position the bead for best sealing.


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

^right- I get that. I absolutely HAD to use foam to fill in the deep center channel of the Holy Rolling Daryl's, but I was saying that I don't think he'd have to get different foam if using a split tube, because no sealant (thus, no ammonia) should ever reach the foam.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

alshead said:


> Not sure why you'd still need a different foam if you're doing split tube.


The foam I used was too thick, stiff and 3-dimmensional, I need something easier to work with, whether I stick with tape or go to split tube.


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

Gotcha- I thought it was the ammonia issue. If you have a Home Depot near by, I highly recommend that pink foam- as I posted on the previous page, I did one layer with it folded in half and then one regular layer over it, trimming the edges before the bead socket and then the split tube. On my other wheel, I did the exact same thing, but with Gorilla Tape and it worked. Eventually, I want to re-do that one using the blue tape, and if that doesn't work, the split tube.

Good luck!


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

FishMan473 said:


> ...The deal breaker is that the sealant is leaking around the valve stem....Another issue is that this foam is too thick and 3-dimensional. Its a pain to install an the tire gets REALLY tight, its hard to fit it on. So maybe this could work if I could find another source of material to fill in the middle of the rim, but other than that I'm dead in the water.
> 
> Last issue is that the tape seems kind of flimsy on the bead hook, and though I think it would work for a few tires installs, I'm thinking of having 2 sets of tires this winter, and I'm guessing that swapping back and forth would create damage that would require re-taping more often than I would like.
> 
> What do people have for suggestions for space fillers that don't dissolve in ammonia? I'm going to need _something_ other than the foam I'm using, even if I go to split tube.


Fishman, I have a couple of ideas. One, if you continue with your foam in the middle, it doesn't have to be right up to the valve hole. Leave it back a ways so that the valve stem is tightening right on the tape and rim.

Second, if you don't like the tire being so tight and hard to get on, try just foam on the edges, allowing the tape to slope downward and making contact with the rim in the middle.

Third, I've changed tires numerous times without any issues using Gorilla tape.

Fourth, I completely cover the foam and have never had any issues with the super firm foam from Ace.


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## evan yo! (Jul 11, 2007)

...And after pinch flatting my rear (tubed) tire at the bottom of Aspen Trail last night I'll be getting around to that conversion sooner rather than later.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Tried G-tape and split tube on my Nates tonight...after over an hour no luck. The Nate is pretty sloppy on my RD. Out of curiosity I tried my hudu split tube....BOOM. Easy peasy. 

I REALLY want tubeless nates this winter. [email protected]


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

jonshonda said:


> Tried G-tape and split tube on my Nates tonight...after over an hour no luck. The Nate is pretty sloppy on my RD. Out of curiosity I tried my hudu split tube....BOOM. Easy peasy.
> 
> I REALLY want tubeless nates this winter. [email protected]


I put my wife's NATE's tubeless split tube on Clownshoes easy. They we're loose without the split tube.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

jonshonda said:


> Tried G-tape and split tube on my Nates tonight...after over an hour no luck. The Nate is pretty sloppy on my RD. Out of curiosity I tried my hudu split tube....BOOM. Easy peasy.
> 
> I REALLY want tubeless nates this winter. [email protected]


Did you use some sort of foam?


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

alphazz said:


> Did you use some sort of foam?


I didn't use any foam. Wrapped the rim in g-tape, popped a tube in and seated beads, pulled tube out, wrapped tire with rope, tons of gap. I might try to find some foam, but I am thinking my Nates are just TOO loose. I have a buddy who has the 120tpi Nates that might let me use them to experiment.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

I am thinking I would need to add another 1/4" of foam all the way out to the edge of the rim to take up that much gap. I don't mind ghetto werks, just getting a little carried away with that much foam imho.


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

Use the 'BOOM' for the nates too!


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

Maybe that's it. My wife's Nates are 120 tpi.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

jonshonda said:


> I am thinking I would need to add another 1/4" of foam all the way out to the edge of the rim to take up that much gap. I don't mind ghetto werks, just getting a little carried away with that much foam imho.


jons, I use a self adhesive super firm foam that is easy. I put in on before the tape and I let the tape run well past the outside of the rim. I run a smooth tool around the bead pushing the tape in the bead area and then trim the extra tape on the outside of the rim. It tightens things up a bunch. Just a thought.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

IT WORKED!!

Drilled Rolling Darryls
Surly Bud
Surly Nate 27tpi
Packing Foam
Gorilla Tape
Sam Adams Boston Lager. 

I used some packing foam from work (fairly thick white foam that we use at work for packing stuff to ship, it comes on a large roll). 

I cut it to 6" wide, folded it over on itself once (making it 3" wide), taped it to the wheel (I left my Surly rim strip in place) and stretched it around the wheel and taped the other end down. 

I then ran a single layer of Gorilla tape over the foam (ran it tight to the inside of the wheel) applying a fair amount of pressure to compress the foam a bit. 

I then put the split tube in place, removed the valve, and aired the tires up with my floor pump. Pumped them up to 30psi to seat the bead, and left them aired up for 15min. Then deflated and poured a little over 3 scoops of Stans in, the inflated to 30 psi to drive the Stans in deep.


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

+1 What's the story with ride quality and tire swap-ability?


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## k.b. (Dec 28, 2006)

MiniTrail said:


> OK my sole interest in this is the ride quality claims. Is it that big an improvement where you would pursue tubeless for that reason alone?
> Don't care about or have issues with flats
> Don't care about weight
> 
> I do swap tires frequently so the popular methods just don't appeal to me. Before I try to scheme my own method has anyone had any luck bonding a split tube to the tire permanently?


Check out exp18 posting history. He has been through the split tube bonding thing and now is on saran wrap.


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

If we can find a glue that would really bond the tube to tire we are in business.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Did anyone try contact cement? I think that stuff would be airtight if you mounted it on the rim before it was dry.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

I'm new to tubeless on Surly rims but been running Umas for a couple of years this way. Wonder if this would work? I was thinking I might have to run a narrow strip of Stans tape around one side just due to the valley using up to much of the wide tape. Thoughts?


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

When I have bud mounted with a tube on my 9ZERO7 fork I had 5-6mm clearance on each side. Mounted split tube I had to trim a few mm off each side of bud. 

I would guess tubeless adds 10-15mm to width.


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

MiniTrail said:


> I keep thinking about 3M windo-weld. Same stuff that holds the windshield in your car. Crazy strong.
> 
> This morning I dug out an old BMX tire/tube to test on but it's pretty oxidized. I'm going to have to find a way to clean up the bond areas to get a good test. I just want to clean it up inside the tire, run a bead of urethane around the inside, stick the tube in then see if I can pull the tube out after it sets up
> 
> Something about all this just doesn't feel right. I can't believe I'm the first person interested in having the split tube come off with the tire. Probably a lot harder than it seems.


If your the first I am the second. I think this would be the best thing for fat tubeless. Maybe one of the tube or tire companies would have some information on rubber bonding.


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## GTR2ebike (May 3, 2010)

Someone posted a while ago that he rubber cemented the tire and tube together. I thought about it but was concerned about getting the bead seated correctly each time.
Do some digging and I'm sure you'll find the posts.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Am I missing something, why is the tube needed if tape will work? Or isn't there proven tape that works? Or maybe I should just search harder?


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

GTR2ebike said:


> Someone posted a while ago that he rubber cemented the tire and tube together. I thought about it but was concerned about getting the bead seated correctly each time.
> Do some digging and I'm sure you'll find the posts.


It was exp18. Maybe he will chime in with more detail.


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

bdundee said:


> Am I missing something, why is the tube needed if tape will work? Or isn't there proven tape that works? Or maybe I should just search harder?


For me the tape and or foam is all too much work and when I tried the tape on BFL's I'd did not work. I have done the split tube with perfect results. It's just messy to change tires. Split tube is where it's at for me.


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## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

exp18 did some work with this last year in post 2 of this thread...
http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/tubeless-fatbike-made-easy-826351.html


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

I read through exp18's earlier post on this. Now I have another project!!!


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## k.b. (Dec 28, 2006)

gcappy said:


> If we can find a glue that would really bond the tube to tire we are in business.


Glues to consider:
•	Rubber cement vs vulcanizing glue - There is confusion on the wording of these products. The rubber cement sold for $1.99 by Elmers et. al. is not meant for permanent bonding. Slime makes a product called "rubber cement" ($4.99) that may be as good as the vulcanizing stuff tire stores use.
•	Urethane glue - Check the roofing dept of your local bld improvement outlet. They sell a urethane glue meant for roof patching.
•	Shoe goo - pretty strong stuff
•	Clear silicone caulk - not a very strong bond but will fill gaps well.

Choice 2
Glue the split tube on the inside or outside? Either way turns out to be difficult to remove the tire tube assemby without damage.
Lots of people have been successful at various tubeless setups but swapping tires frequently is still a big mess and giant PITA, the whole idea exp18 is working on is to make the complete assembly easy to change tires.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

bdundee said:


> Am I missing something, why is the tube needed if tape will work? Or isn't there proven tape that works? Or maybe I should just search harder?


I am just a noob to he tubeless game, but my experience is this.
1) Tape only, no foam =Not a snowballs chance in hell.
2) Rimstrip, foam & tape = It may have worked with a compressor, but not a chance for me with a floor pump. 
3) Rimstrip, foam & tape w/ split tube= Worked well for me with floor pump.

I am going to ride the setup today and make sure it works. But I chased my son around the yard yesterday with no issue.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

jonshonda said:


> I am just a noob to he tubeless game, but my experience is this.
> 1) Tape only, no foam =Not a snowballs chance in hell.
> 2) Rimstrip, foam & tape = It may have worked with a compressor, but not a chance for me with a floor pump.
> 3) Rimstrip, foam & tape w/ split tube= Worked well for me with floor pump.
> ...


I set a bFL on a CS up last night with just a Surly rim strip just to see if I could get it to seat and no problem. The Bfl did fit fairly tight and it even held air for a few minutes.

I think I am going to go this route after I get the CS a little lighter.


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## k.b. (Dec 28, 2006)

MiniTrail said:


> my understanding is that rubber cement only removes oxidation so an uncured rubber patch can stick


Vulcanizing is the term the tire industry uses to refer to the process of laminating the tire tread to the tire carcass. Perhaps you have seen "retread" strips laying on the highway - it is not 100%.
The term has been bastardized for things like RTV silicone - room temperature vulcanizing, that certainly would not hold tread on a tire casing. The main difficulty in the tubeless process is not getting anything to stick and work, but to be able to remove and replace the whole tire/split/tube without damage. I've used the window weld stuff on a window. It is indeed sticky - so much so, that if you screw up it means scraping it all off and starting over. I am certain it will stick, I just don't see that it solves the tire change problem.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

> I think I am going to go this route after I get the CS a little lighter.


What are you going to be doing to accomplish this?

I realize that there isn't a tire that works for every circumstance and I change a tire now and then. It sounds like some of you change tires a lot, how often are some of you changing tires and for what purpose?


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

alphazz said:


> What are you going to be doing to accomplish this?


What make the CS lighter? If so I will reveal when done (insert evil laugh here)


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

MiniTrail said:


> we both see the problem the same
> 
> What I'm thinking of is a normal split tube tubeless set up to start with.
> 
> Then I want to run a bead of urethane around the outside between the split tube and the tire before trimming the excess split tube off. The urethane would hold the split tube in place when I change the tire making the tire, sealant and split tube a single component. I would have to leave out a small section of the urethane bead as a breach for booger retrieval and sealant changes


This is exactly where I want to go with this. This will be one of my next projects right after I finish my fat trailer I am working on now. I have my new bike now but I will hold off going tubeless until I explore the available bonding agents more closely.


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## k.b. (Dec 28, 2006)

MiniTrail said:


> ... I do not anticipate problems removing the assembly. May find out differently


I didn't anticipate getting a divorce...:madman:

So, if you look thru exp18's trials he moved on to gluing the split tube inside the tire, and he is beyond that now. YMMV

I await your trial with anticipation. Report back your success or lack thereof.


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## racefit (Aug 26, 2010)

Apologies I'd i didn't see earlier in this thread but has anybody tried gluing the split tube to the inside of the rim?


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## johnlh (Aug 16, 2008)

I'm sick today, so I thought that playing around with tubeless attempts on my BFLs & Clownshoes would be a good way to spend the morning. I had packing tape, 3m, Stan's Tape, & foam, & Gorilla tape on hand, but cujarrett's Gorilla tape over the rim strip did the trick.

Tubeless Fatbike Conversion | Cycles In Life

I used two strips of 4" Gorilla tape, each pulled tight toward the bead of the rim, and overlapping in the middle. The use of a tube for popping in one bead was critical, as was removing the valve core to allow my cheapo 90 psi compressor to work. The first tire popped into place right away after I installed the tubeless valve. The second tire took a little more pulling the bead to the outside before it finally popped into place.

Neither tire has lost any air over the last few hours, and I hope to feel well enough to test them out tomorrow afternoon.


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## cujarrett (Jul 23, 2009)

johnlh said:


> I'm sick today, so I thought that playing around with tubeless attempts on my BFLs & Clownshoes would be a good way to spend the morning. I had packing tape, 3m, Stan's Tape, & foam, & Gorilla tape on hand, but cujarrett's Gorilla tape over the rim strip did the trick.
> 
> Tubeless Fatbike Conversion | Cycles In Life
> 
> ...


Thanks man! I appreciate the positive feedback!


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

First ride on split tube RD/Nate/Bud. I will say that I "feel" like it was faster than w/ tubes. I ran the same 10psi in the Nate as w/ tubes, and the Nate felt a lot softer. Bud was @ 7psi, and man-o-man does that bad boy STICK! 

275lbs w/o gear hit some rocks/roots/and a couple 2ft jumps and (knock on wood) all is well.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

I have been running ghetto tubeless on my 29er for a long time, I have tried split tube and gorilla tape. In my experience split tube is easier and more likely to last. I understand the desire to be able to change tires easily, I dread getting sidewall tears in the woods (rocky terrain around here so it happens), putting a tube in a tubeless set up in the woods is always a hassle.

All that to say, I have some experience with tubeless. I guess if I was looking to make a tubeless easily changeable it seems like the best way to do it would be to lay the split tube inside the tire, so when you're using a tire lever its not coming in contact with the tube. Getting an airtight seal would probably be difficult. I was thinking if you could get the tire inflated the pressure would make that a good connection, but you'd have to find the right glue that would both hold the tube in place while you aired it up and was not completely dry so that the pressure would seal it. 

I'm going to try this soon, I think contact cement is the way to go, but until I try it, its just a guess. 

The one negative to this kind of set up is that if you do blow out a sidewall and need to put a tube in, you'd have to cut the glued in tube out trailside, that would be painful.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Jisch said:


> The one negative to this kind of set up is that if you do blow out a sidewall and need to put a tube in, you'd have to cut the glued in tube out trailside, that would be painful.


It seems the most common way to end up putting a tube in your tubeless setup is spiking it with a stick. Regardless it will result in a tube being fitted, ive been lucky with spiking my buds twice and it sealed again, HuDu's twice also and not so lucky.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Around here its cutting the sidewall on a sharp rock, Stans can't seal that kind of rip.


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## johnlh (Aug 16, 2008)

MiniTrail said:


> as often as needed. more importantly, too often to make tubeless appealing
> 
> nokians and hookworms for skinnys, larry for trail, BFL for snow. black floyd for hardpack and stone path


This is exactly why I am apprehensive in selling my Pugsley. Even though my Moonlander is my preferred fatbike, it's nice to leave the Pug set up for more trail/hard pack-oriented conditions, and save the more expensive Moonie tires for deep snow conditions.


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## saron (Oct 10, 2011)

Hi, can someone please advise me on what to use as rim tape for a LM drilled rims.
Currently I am using a 24 inch tube and it looks like ping pong balls popping out of rim.
Cheers


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

saron said:


> Hi, can someone please advise me on what to use as rim tape for a LM drilled rims.
> Currently I am using a 24 inch tube and it looks like ping pong balls popping out of rim.
> Cheers


Use a purpose made "rim-strip" from Surly or one of many colored "duct tape" or Gorilla Tape. You do need to have the holes covered before laying on the split tube.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

saron said:


> ...it looks like ping pong balls popping out of rim.


Do the Gorilla tape, it's tougher than the rim strips.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

For those that have done the split tube thing - what size tube are you using? I grabbed a 24" tube off the shelf at the local hardware store (I know!) without really looking at anything besides the 24" part. I got it home and its 1 3/8", that is not nearly wide enough to cover even a 80mm rim. I don't recall there being another size on the shelf, maybe I need to order tubes.


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

If you read through the thread, all of the info you need is there. 

You won't find the tubes you're looking for at the hardware store.

QTubes 24x2.4-2.75 are the biggest I've found with a presta valve. Often have to special order through your LBS unless you have a place that does a lot of fat bike stuff, then they might keep stock.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Thanks, I've been following the thread, neglected to go back through and see if it was in there.


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## johnlh (Aug 16, 2008)

Almost 200 miles later, and still no burps or loss of air. Excellent traction & ride quality.


johnlh said:


> I'm sick today, so I thought that playing around with tubeless attempts on my BFLs & Clownshoes would be a good way to spend the morning. I had packing tape, 3m, Stan's Tape, & foam, & Gorilla tape on hand, but cujarrett's Gorilla tape over the rim strip did the trick.
> 
> Tubeless Fatbike Conversion | Cycles In Life
> 
> ...


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

alshead said:


> If you read through the thread, all of the info you need is there.
> 
> You won't find the tubes you're looking for at the hardware store.
> 
> QTubes 24x2.4-2.75 are the biggest I've found with a presta valve. Often have to special order through your LBS unless you have a place that does a lot of fat bike stuff, then they might keep stock.


Niagara Cycle Works in Buffalo NY always has them.

Edit: Sorry, Bicycle Replacement Parts | Road Bicylce Parts | Bicycle Repair Parts - Niagara Cycle


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

johnlh said:


> Almost 200 miles later, and still no burps or loss of air. Excellent traction & ride quality.


Way to go John. I see the cooler temps and howling winds haven't slowed you down much (you are tougher than me). If you aren't using foam, you should try using a tight strap around the tire. I have pretty good success with that.

You have been turning around too soon though, you should come on up into the snow and air those tubeless monsters down. I had a lady thank me yesterday for my nicely packed trail.


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

Jisch said:


> For those that have done the split tube thing - what size tube are you using?


Schwalbe AV10D is wide enough for Clown Shoes.

They come with Schrader valves, but I didn't mind drilling the valve hole on the rim. Even if I install something with a presta valve, the immediate surroundings of the valve are thicker anyways and the pressures we use are low, so it won't be an issue.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

What about using a spray on rubber coating instead of a split tube?


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## sryanak (Aug 9, 2008)

I dove into the world of tubless yesterday and hit a bit of a snag. I am using the Stan's yellow tape and sealant with a Rolling Darryl and Escalators. All went well when I taped up the front wheel. I did cut the tape in half length wise because it was for 90mm rims and mine are narrower but I don'tthink that had anything to do with my problem. I pulled reasonably hard on the tape as I wrapped it over the bead sjelf so there wouldn't be any wrinkles there. When I taped up the second wheel the tape came out 9" short. Are you really supposed to stretch the crap out of the tape? Or did I just get a short roll maybe. It seems like $40 should do more than 1 wheel. The good news is the other tire aired up real easy today. We'll see what it looks like in the morning.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

sryanak said:


> I dove into the world of tubless yesterday and hit a bit of a snag. I am using the Stan's yellow tape and sealant with a Rolling Darryl and Escalators. All went well when I taped up the front wheel. I did cut the tape in half length wise because it was for 90mm rims and mine are narrower but I don'tthink that had anything to do with my problem. I pulled reasonably hard on the tape as I wrapped it over the bead sjelf so there wouldn't be any wrinkles there. When I taped up the second wheel the tape came out 9" short. Are you really supposed to stretch the crap out of the tape? Or did I just get a short roll maybe. It seems like $40 should do more than 1 wheel. The good news is the other tire aired up real easy today. We'll see what it looks like in the morning.


I believe you are supposed to get 5 rims out of 1 roll and that's without stretching the crap out of it. I would give Speedway a call tomorrow. I have a roll that I've done 2 rims and still have a bunch left.


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## Big Gags (Jan 8, 2013)

Maybe I am missing something?? 

I decided to convert to tubeless on my Krampus (running rabbit hole rims with 29 x 3" Knard tyres (27 tpi)) and it took me about 15 minutes to convert both wheels!!

Remove tyre, insert 26" tube (just left the standard liner in place), cut tube, tyre on, 4 x scoops of Stans, inflate with cheap arse compressor (I never use soap suds, just stretch the tyre and push it into the beads in the vicinity of the valve and eventually it gets enough back pressure to form the initial seal). Inflated to about 25 psi and then shook the wheel around to make sure that all of the beads got a good coating of goop!!

This was about 3 months ago and I have not had any flats or any burping issues since (last week I rode my Krampus in the Cape to Cape MTB race in Margaret River, Western Australia which was a total of about 210 km over 4 days without any problems).

So why is the foam and tape required? The only thing I can think of is that it is because of the lower pressures that you are running on a "real" fat bike as opposed to the 18 psi or so that I am running on the Krampus??

Cheers,

Gags


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

Apples to oranges man, that is a lot smaller tire you are trying to seat.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

Big Gags said:


> So why is the foam and tape required?


The foam helps tighten the seal with the beads for seating. More of an issue with wider rim and tire.

Beyond that, I'm with you. My experience has been identical, both 29x3 and 26x4/5. Set it up, and ride it. Low pressure too, 2 to 3 PSI, I just don't see the slipping that begs for more bead security.

Why we're chanting incantations, glueing, RTV sealing, searching the ends of the earth for lord only knows what, I have no idea.

Pretty impressive thread for what amounts to something I've now done dozens of times, with equal success for all, simply with a split tube, and maybe some foam, or mini bubble wrap to tighten the seal on some, but many have gone with just the tube......

Hey, I guess humans seek to improve endlessly, must be the deal here as well.


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

Wait till you see the fat trailer I'm working on! Why? Because I can!


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> The foam helps tighten the seal with the beads for seating. More of an issue with wider rim and tire.
> 
> Pretty impressive thread for what amounts to something I've now done dozens of times, with equal success for all, simply with a split tube, and maybe some foam, or mini bubble wrap to tighten the seal on some, but many have gone with just the tube......
> 
> Hey, I guess humans seek to improve endlessly, must be the deal here as well.


Are you using your shop air to seat the beads?

Edit: I never had a problem till I tried Lou on a CS got it but it was a lot harder than a bfl, point is every tire and rim combo can be different.


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## johnlh (Aug 16, 2008)

Pinched my sidewall on a rock hidden below the snow last night. It was 15 degrees F, and the rear went totally flat. After a few minutes of laying the bike on it's side, and watching Stan's trickle out it sealed. Still holding air this morning after another 30 miles of riding.


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

MiniTrail said:


> If we didn't have people seeing/trying different things we wouldn't have bunch of fat bikes running around with lefties would we...


Very true indeed.

I just question the relentless fidgeting with what seems to be a very stable easy to use couple of system that already seem to have good track records.

If everyone were burping, having tires slip, seeing air retention issues, etc, sure, tweak away. Or buy some Uma's and fuggedaboudit 

Someone beat you to the fat trailer g, sorry.....

Quirings latest toy.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

johnlh said:


> Pinched my sidewall on a rock hidden below the snow last night. It was 15 degrees F, and the rear went totally flat. After a few minutes of laying the bike on it's side, and watching Stan's trickle out it sealed. Still holding air this morning after another 30 miles of riding.


Interesting John, I hit my rim all the time and have never had an issue. I hope you get up there and pack the trails today for me.


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## johnlh (Aug 16, 2008)

alphazz said:


> Interesting John, I hit my rim all the time and have never had an issue. I hope you get up there and pack the trails today for me.


I'm limited to east of town today, but there is still plenty of packing to be done there.


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

MendonCycleSmith said:


> Very true indeed.
> 
> I just question the relentless fidgeting with what seems to be a very stable easy to use couple of system that already seem to have good track records.
> 
> ...


Arghhh! Mine is a Topeak. Same rear rim and tire though. Looks good.


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## sryanak (Aug 9, 2008)

bdundee said:


> I believe you are supposed to get 5 rims out of 1 roll and that's without stretching the crap out of it. I would give Speedway a call tomorrow. I have a roll that I've done 2 rims and still have a bunch left.


They gave me a couple of rolls for my trouble so kudos to them. I rode the front wheel today and it rode, well like a front wheel. I had it pumped up pretty hard for me so I'll let some air out next time. The rear aired up easy too. I'll try that tomorrow. Sure wish we'd get some snow the studs in my Escalators make an awful racket on dirt with rocks mixed in.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

johnlh said:


> I'm limited to east of town today, but there is still plenty of packing to be done there.


You are tougher than me. I don't mind climbing that hill but I hate coming back down on all of the rocks and into what is almost always an ugly headwind.

Did you pinch your tire the other day flying down off of the mountain?


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## Gizzard75 (Aug 8, 2013)

Started my tubeless conversion last night- instead of trying to get the tyvek tape method to work I bought some sill plate foam and a roll of gorilla tape. Laid down some foam and ran two strips of tape along each edge of the CS rim- there was plenty of overlap so I didnt feel compelled to run a third down the middle.

Put the tubes in and aired it up to 20 psig-- the f#@kers were both flat this AM... aired them up again and left for work- I noticed that the one was leaking where the valve came through so that may not be an issue once I install the tubeless valve.

Really hoping the sealant does the rest! I don't want to peel the gorilla off- the tyvek tape was a mother to remove...


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## Schott (Nov 26, 2012)

My tape only toobless experience was that it takes a lot more sealant, and longer to do the job. I shook and spun one for a week before it sealed up right. With the split tube it's over in twenty minutes, but I like the way the tire seats up without the split toob.


"You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

So where was it not sealing up at?


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## Schott (Nov 26, 2012)

It was leaking out of the cut outs in the wheels, and my homemade valve stem (not surprising). I have a layer of fancy cheap duct tape, and then gorilla tape over foam. It's all sealed up now, though.


"You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"


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## johnlh (Aug 16, 2008)

Schott said:


> My tape only toobless experience was that it takes a lot more sealant, and longer to do the job. I shook and spun one for a week before it sealed up right. With the split tube it's over in twenty minutes, but I like the way the tire seats up without the split toob.
> 
> "You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"


My BFLs on Gorilla Taped CS rims held air for over an hour before I added Stan's. Not a bit of leaking several hundred miles later.


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## Gizzard75 (Aug 8, 2013)

I pulled the tubes out (which was extremely difficult) put in the sealant, aired the tires up with a floor pump- the back tire's bead "popped" into place. I soaped it up no leaks detected. 

The front tire's bead didn't "pop" into place but aired up to 25 psi and held- I had a few leaks that sealed up. 

This AM a lowered the pressure in both tires to put them back on the bike and the front tire lost sealant out of the bead side... I put it on aired it up to 20 psi and rode around on it. I plan on dropping the pressure and going for a cautious ride at noon. 

Overall it was very easy to do- I had trouble getting the tires on and getting to tube out since it was such a tight fit with the foam and the tape.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

With the fit so "tight", why did you need to put the tubes in the tires to begin with?


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## Gizzard75 (Aug 8, 2013)

I probably didn't. I decided that I didnt want to mess around for a week like I did last time so I didn't deviate from the plan. It worked- one day missed. The test ride went fine. The bike rides so much smother than before and feels less squirrelly in the corners. Very excited to take it down to 2 psi and cruise over some white stuff... whenever that stuff shows up!


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## Lars_D (May 24, 2011)

I set up my Speedway Sterling tires tubeless today. It went pretty well. When I got the tires Wednesday, I removed my existing rim strip, tube, and tire. The rim strip was one layer of decorative duck tape that weighed 24 grams. I replaced it with two strip of of Gorilla tape, which overlapped a little in the center of the rim. I then tore out 30 squares of decorative duck tape and pushed them trough the holes, pretty side out. The total weight of Gorilla tape and decorative tape was about 60 grams.

I then mounted the tire and installed the tube I had been using with the Husker Du tire that the Sterling is replacing. The tube was a Schwalbe SV13F (extra light, 26x2.10-3.00) that weighted about 200 grams. So the total weight of the tubed setup was about 224 grams--which I figure is about as light as you can get with a tube-based setup.

I rode the bike with the tube for a few days like this to allow the tire to work out the shipping creases and the press the Gorilla tape firmly into pace.

This morning I took off the rear wheel, deflated the inner tube and removed it. I left one side of the tire seated to the rim. I installed a Stan presta valve. I then pulled the unseated side of the tire as close as I could get it to its side of the rim. Two CO2 cartridges later and I had both sides seated. I removed the core of the Presta valve and poured about 75 grams of Slime Pro into the tire.









I re-installed the valve core and shook the tire for a few minutes to spread around the sealant. I inflated the tire with my hand pump up to about 20 psi and went for a short ride to further spread the Slime around. I lost a little air on the ride and could see where the Slime was doing its job sealing the rim. I aired it back up to 20psi and after 4 hours it seemed fully seated and sealed.

Total time: about an hour. Total weight savings: 79 grams = 224 (old rim strip and tube) -75 (slime) -60 (new rimstrip)-10 (Stan's stem). Cost about $30. Not bad.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Lik the rim tap ! A bit of rainbow going on.


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

I'm hoping you all can help me understand something. I have been riding both of my HRD's with Husker Du's tubeless for a little while now. One is set up with a split tube (plus foam in the center channel), the other was set up with gorilla tape (and the same foam). The Gorilla Tape was done first, and I wasn't able to replicate it on the other wheel after many attempts, thus the split tube. Anyway, long story short is that the Gorilla Tape one started leaking - lots of sealant left, but I think the tape wasn't holding any more. I wanted swap out tires anyway, so I set that one up with the split tube as well. 

Here's the question: When I set it up, everything went well just like in my first split tube setup (on page 6 of this thread), but (and this happened, but just less the first time), after seating up, I had a lot of seepage out of the valve stem hole, an unused spoke hole nearby, and one other spoke hole around the other side of the rim. They all took a while to seal up, but the concept baffles me. I have a surly rim strip, foam, and then the split tube. The sealant shouldn't be coming out of anywhere except the sides of the rim/ bead socket. How is it possible that there would be sealant coming out of the sides of the valve hole and around a couple of spoke holes when the split tube should be creating a seal that never lets sealant to get to the rim/ rim strip/ outer valve? On the first inflation, there was lots of air coming out of these holes, and I surmised that this was the foam being compressed and the "pocket" between the rim and the split tube was pushing the air out of the spoke holes, etc, but I still don't understand how there could be sealant in that pocket. It's possible there was some sealant that got into the rim from my first gorilla tape setup, but otherwise, I'm totally not seeing how this would be happening. After two more inflations and shake arounds and such, it's all sealed up just fine and there's no more of this happening, but I am still baffled- it doesn't seem possible (unless, of course, there was sealant in the rim cavity already as mentioned before). Anyone else come across this?


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

It's sealant from your previous attempt.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

Indeed. All the escaping air and sealant is the result of placing the split tube over that setup. Once you aired up the split tube, it compressed the foam and pressed out existing air and sealant to the nearest exit; spoke and valve holes. 

All is good. You should have a sound split tube setup now.


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

Thanks gents- that's what I assumed, but it was a little puzzling.


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## WickedLite (Nov 15, 2010)

Wow... 12 pages was quite the read through this eve. Thanks to all for your experiments and sharing in my pre prep tubeless build.

I am awaiting my new hubs to build up my first fat tubeless. Using squared drilled Darryls. Aiming for lite weight since I'm pretty lite and this is my snow only bike.... well, we'll see.

The few vids on youtube showed it done pretty simple on Holy Darryls with rim strip and duct tape and the save all pressure around outside of tire! No foam, no ghetto tube and no hassle.

First rim strip, then duct tape, pump up tube to set bead, open one side to remove tube, wrap outside of tire with a few rim strips to push tire down on rim and inflate.

In Italian but you can understand the pics: fat tubeless on Vimeo

Seems like the easiest and lightest setup so far. Am I missing something?


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

WickedLite said:


> Seems like the easiest and lightest setup so far. Am I missing something?


I'd say the only thing you're missing is practical experience. I wasn't able to get husker day's to set up on my hrd's so easily without foam and split tube. I'll be psyched to see/ hear how this works for you - I'd love to have a more simple setup that is also solid and reliable.


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## WickedLite (Nov 15, 2010)

No fat tubeless experience here yet. correct. I can't even try with my hubs delayed for another 3 weeks. ouch.

The one thing in the vid and a couple others were the straps around the outer tire to apply pressure towards the rim, preventing air to flow out. I don't recall anyone saying they did that in this thread and that would make a big diff in inflation ease. Now I had a party life in my youth so I mighta missed it if someone did. 

In the theory in my head, trying a quick pull strap with buckle is easier to put on than the rubber straps they use and accomplishes the same thing. 

Let ya guys know when I'm workin on er. Gonna be a killer set a wheels.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

*Helecopter Tape.*

This stuff seems to be DA bomb!!


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## sryanak (Aug 9, 2008)

bdundee said:


> This stuff seems to be DA bomb!!


How did you get it to go on so smoothly?

l've had the oppisite experience from some on here going thenon split tube with Escalators on hrds. They set up perfectly. No air loss overnight so out I went for a ride, a very short ride. Stans sealant was leaking out all over. I had to pump up the tires multiple times in a mile. Back inside the tires held air all night no leaking at all. Tried another ride sealant pouring out all around the bead and even out around the valve stem. Back inside still holds at night, next ride just 3/4 mile down the street only leaked a little bit. I'm off to try another trail ride, hopefully it goes better.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

sryanak said:


> How did you get it to go on so smoothly?
> 
> l've had the oppisite experience from some on here going thenon split tube with Escalators on hrds. They set up perfectly. No air loss overnight so out I went for a ride, a very short ride. Stans sealant was leaking out all over. I had to pump up the tires multiple times in a mile. Back inside the tires held air all night no leaking at all. Tried another ride sealant pouring out all around the bead and even out around the valve stem. Back inside still holds at night, next ride just 3/4 mile down the street only leaked a little bit. I'm off to try another trail ride, hopefully it goes better.


Make sure you pump it up enough to seat the bead in the wheel bead socket. If it's not fully seated, you will lose air and sealant. It's easy to be fooled into thinking it is set up right because it will hold air... until you use it.

When mounting mine, first I get it to hold air, I then start pumping it up slowly until the tire bead "Pops" into the wheel bead socket. I've found that it usually happens with about 25lbs of pressure but I've had to take it to 30psi once or twice to get it to fully seat. After it seats, then I can immediately take the air pressure down to my riding pressure; about 9psi.

Done it with both Escalators and HuDu's on holy Rolling Darryls and Marge Lites. Make sure you can see the small rubber ridge at the top of the tire bead all the way around the wheel rim. If you don't see it, it's not seated.


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

sryanak said:


> How did you get it to go on so smoothly?
> 
> l've had the oppisite experience from some on here going thenon split tube with Escalators on hrds. They set up perfectly. No air loss overnight so out I went for a ride, a very short ride. Stans sealant was leaking out all over. I had to pump up the tires multiple times in a mile. Back inside the tires held air all night no leaking at all. Tried another ride sealant pouring out all around the bead and even out around the valve stem. Back inside still holds at night, next ride just 3/4 mile down the street only leaked a little bit. I'm off to try another trail ride, hopefully it goes better.


My rear wheel (Clown Shoes and Lou) I set up using Fatback Stans tape plus an extra wrap of 25mm Stans just to get a little better coverage. Like mentioned above it's very hard to get it applied smoothly and I did get a little leakage from where the two tapes over lapped but it sealed up on it own. Also the beads set up very easy with no leakage.

The front I set up with one wrap of 4" wide helicopter tape. This went on very smooth mainly due to the fact that is was stretchy. The only problem I had like already mentioned is the beads gave a false sense of being seated but actually weren't so I ended up taking one side off at a time and applying soap. They then popped on without any leaking at all.

I learned a couple of things. One that I thing the helicopter tape I used might hold the bead a little better and the Bud on a hundie ran up to 30# tubeless is about 125mm wide and friggen big


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## WickedLite (Nov 15, 2010)

bdundee said:


> This stuff seems to be DA bomb!!


What are you using? Looks like moving tape wrapped several times around the center and once or twice going full width of rim.

How did the setup turn out with the tire mount process?


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

WickedLite said:


> What are you using? Looks like moving tape wrapped several times around the center and once or twice going full width of rim.
> 
> How did the setup turn out with the tire mount process?


No moving tape. Just one wrap of fabric to cover the holes and one wrap of helicopter tape. I set the beads using a tube, pulled the tube out and set the wheel on a bucket with the unseated bead side down, took the valve out and hit it with a little pancake air compressor, done.


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## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

bdundee said:


> My rear wheel (Clown Shoes and Lou) I set up using Fatback Stans tape plus an extra wrap of 25mm Stans just to get a little better coverage. Like mentioned above it's very hard to get it applied smoothly and I did get a little leakage from where the two tapes over lapped but it sealed up on it own. Also the beads set up very easy with no leakage.
> 
> The front I set up with one wrap of 4" wide helicopter tape. This went on very smooth mainly due to the fact that is was stretchy. The only problem I had like already mentioned is the beads gave a false sense of being seated but actually weren't so I ended up taking one side off at a time and applying soap. They then popped on without any leaking at all.
> 
> I learned a couple of things. One that I thing the helicopter tape I used might hold the bead a little better and the Bud on a hundie ran up to 30# tubeless is about 125mm wide and friggen big


That is BIG! Say, how do you do your valve stems? Melt a hole thru the tape/foam and use a Stan's presta valve, a presta cut out of an old inner tube, or have you drilled out for schraeders? Or other


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

No foam used but I just poke a hole through with a wood drill bit I have and use Stans presta valves.


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## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

Well, it was tubeless Thursday for me . Earlier this week I made Lou tubeless via split tube method with good success. It held air without any trouble even before adding homebrew sealant. Rides nice. 
So, heady with success, tonight I undertook de-toobulizing Bud as well. I did a wrap of wide gorilla tape and a wrap of regular, used a tube to seal the beads, took it back out, added a Stan's presta valve, 2 quick squirts of starter fluid, added a match, and whoosh! Success. Put in some homebrew sealant and so far so good . Bud is filling out the fork nicely...


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

I burped my rear tire twice today (set up split tube) has anyone had this issue when riding technical terrain? I was at around 7psi. I just hate having that in the back of my mind when I'm riding.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

Jisch said:


> I burped my rear tire twice today (set up split tube) has anyone had this issue when riding technical terrain? I was at around 7psi. I just hate having that in the back of my mind when I'm riding.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


What rims are you running? Do the rime have a good bead pocket? If so, you have not fully seated the bead in the pocket. I run tubeless and it takes 25+psi to get the beads to seat in the rim pocket. Then they are locked in there tight and I can take it down to 6-7psi with no issues.

You still want to have enough air in there to mostly prevent rim hits when fat riding technical stuff, otherwise you risk damaging the rim just like regular tubeless.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

I think they are seated, I put them up to 20psi when I first mounted them. It's on a weimann rim.

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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

Jisch said:


> I think they are seated, I put them up to 20psi when I first mounted them. It's on a weimann rim.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


The Weimann rim could be the culprit. Looking at a cross section of the rim there does not seem to be a pronounced "pocket" for the bead. You may have to build one up with tape which is the typical fix to run tubeless on a rim that won't mechanically hold the bead. Look at the cross sections of these rims: The Surly has a ridge that helps hold the bead at the rim edge. The Weimann does not.

Weimann rim: no pocket








Surly rim: notice bead pocket with flat area next to rim inside rim edge


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Thanks! I'll have to keep an eye on it and see if I need to add a ridge of some sort.

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## ChrisInYpsi (Apr 15, 2012)

I set up my HRD's and 120tpi ultralight HuDu's tubeless today. Used 2 wraps of sill foam and a split tube. Had to wrestle the tire over the foam a bit but it aired right up and the bead quickly popped in.

Last night I did a Larry on the same rim and it didn't need any foam (or sealant to hold air overnight). Couldn't get the HuDu's to work without the foam.

Rode them today at ~9 psi and they worked great.

2 question for the split tubers:
* I want to trim the exposed split tube back but I'm not sure how much to leave out past the rim. How much did you trim off (or leave exposed)?
* Have you been able to reuse the same split tube and foam when you change tires?

Gratuitous and not-really-needed pics:


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

I trimmed the split tube on my wife's Nate/Clownshoes right back to the rim with a razor blade. You can't even tell there is a tube there. However I don't think I could reuse the split tube because of it. She has been ridding them all Sumer and fall so far. I will tune up the sealant next spring and probably have to put in a new tube. They are cheap enough for one a year to me.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

gcappy said:


> I trimmed the split tube on my wife's Nate/Clownshoes right back to the rim with a razor blade. You can't even tell there is a tube there. However I don't think I could reuse the split tube because of it. She has been ridding them all Sumer and fall so far. I will tune up the sealant next spring and probably have to put in a new tube. They are cheap enough for one a year to me.


I've trimmed off the excess tube as well and have had no issues reusing the split tube when refreshing the Stan's or changing the tire rotation. Thought about using some double faced tape to keep the split tube in place but it wasn't necessary. Might be a little trickier on ClownS though.

See picture:
https://fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/fat-bikes/847581d1384738648-tubeless-tuesday-img_2246.jpg


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## Tahoefatty (Oct 24, 2013)

Just want to say thanks to everyone here that has given their input on" how to tubeless". Set up my RD's using the foam, gorilla tape method. I was able to get both rims and tires ( Lou's and Bud's) done right the first time with no leaks at all. Still holding air after 2 days ! I have read this whole thread and learned so much . Thanks again to all that make this possible.. You all ROCK !


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

Tahoefatty said:


> Just want to say thanks to everyone here that has given their input on" how to tubeless". Set up my RD's using the foam, gorilla tape method. I was able to get both rims and tires ( Lou's and Bud's) done right the first time with no leaks at all. Still holding air after 2 days ! I have read this whole thread and learned so much . Thanks again to all that make this possible.. You all ROCK !


+1. This is the place to learn about fat bikes. That's why I'm here too.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

I was thinking about my burping problem and I don't think it would be any different with a pugs rim. From a bread seating perspective the pugs has a smaller shelf, but it doesn't have a ridge or anything to hold the bead. Just saying I think I'd have the same issue.

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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

BURPING TIP.... for some reason a BUD or LOU seals up like a glove on marge lites, a Husker Du and a 3.8 Knard on the other hand has problems without the split tube method... dunno why. They spit sealant down the sidewall outside constantly and become a PITA. Ive even had a mate... He's a flyin machine too, lose a knard 1 lap into a 7 lap race... singletrack stories, might be different on snow YMMV.

I have had no luck with either on ML's trying to run them as a light set of tyre's.... prob just as well as i don't feel fat unless i'm rollin BUDZ.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Ignore my previous comment, I see the issue.


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## OFFcourse (Aug 11, 2011)

ozzybmx said:


> BURPING TIP.... for some reason a BUD or LOU seals up like a glove on marge lites, a Husker Du and a 3.8 Knard on the other hand has problems without the split tube method... dunno why. They spit sealant down the sidewall outside constantly and become a PITA. Ive even had a mate... He's a flyin machine too, lose a knard 1 lap into a 7 lap race... singletrack stories, might be different on snow YMMV.
> 
> I have had no luck with either on ML's trying to run them as a light set of tyre's.... prob just as well as i don't feel fat unless i'm rollin BUDZ.


How do you find the budz compared to the hudu/knard (faster rubber) that must be a lot more rolling resistance...


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## grubyuppie (Oct 3, 2011)

*wire bead BFL*

I set up a folding BFL to a "new" Large Marge with GT/foam/GT/Stans/pro Park floor pump.

Will I have the same luck with a wire BFL using the same ghetto?


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

I don't know guys. I've tried setting up my wheels (Rolling Darryl with Husker Du and Escalator) three times now and it has failed each time.

- With pipe insulating foam and wide Stan's type tape the sealant leaked through the valve core and degrade the foam, it also leaked through the end of the tape. Sealant spit out of the holes in the rim.

- When I tried to use weather sealing foam instead it just compressed into uselessness.

- Then I tried a more heavy-duty, clear, window sealing tape again with the pipe insulating foam, but this time I switched to Bontrager sealant. I got two decent rides out of it, and it rode well. But the Husker Du never really sealed at the bead and was leaking air and sealant when you put any strain at the bead at low PSI's. The Escalator seated up fine and seemed to work, but when I took it apart you could see that sealant was working its way under the tape and it would eventually fail. Also, the foam collapsed again so I couldn't reinstall the tires anyway.

I was actually a little relieved to see that OzzyBMX had problems sealing up Husker Du's and Rolling Darryl's, I thought it was just me.

I'm not sure this is worth doing anymore. I had a couple great rides this week with tubes in there. Can I be confident in a tubeless set-up at 2psi (or the tubeless equivalent?) Can I count on them when I'm miles into the trail on a cold, cold day?

Maybe just one more try: where do people get those white strips of foam, and where do you get that helicopter blade tape?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MendonCycleSmith (Feb 10, 2005)

FishMan473 said:


> I don't know guys.


Two 24x2.75 presta valve tubes will cost less than a roll of Helicopter tape, and sealant can't soak in thus ruining it's adhesive (since it has none).

Or, you could just keep fighting it, but I prefer riding.

Set up several in the last week or so, to a bike, holding and working fine.

Tubeless is worth it though, but not essential to have fun by any means.....


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## sbsbiker (Dec 1, 2007)

"Tubeless is worth it though, but not essential to have fun by any means"

Whattt???? Tubeless isn't essential to have fun. But what? Huh?


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## FishMan473 (Jan 2, 2003)

I'd still need some foam to fill in the gaps so I can air up my tires. Where does one get those white foam strips.... And it doesn't compress over time?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ChrisInYpsi (Apr 15, 2012)

I've been running split tubes w my Holy Rolling Darryl's with ultralight HuDu's for a month or so and have been extremely pleased. They haven't leaked any noticeable air or sealant or had any issues with burping, and I've run anywhere from 10 psi to down around 3 psi (depending on trail conditions). Very happy with this setup.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Not seen a great deal regarding the factory rims and Floater tyres on the On-One Fatty . I'm getting one *soon and I would like to go tubeless ASAP . 

One of the few comments I have seen on the subject was how small the bead shelf and lack of bead locking lip on the rims would make it a difficult task .

Another post noted how loose the Floater tyres are on the factory rims and the high risk of burping out on the trail.

Anyone have any *actual* experience of going tubeless on the Fatty regarding ease of setup and robustness of conversion ?

TIA

Fat Biker

*Ordered from their UK store 21/12/13 for collection on 28/12/13 with slightly upgraded gearing and a dropper post  (If the stock comes through)


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

FishMan473 said:


> I don't know guys...
> 
> Maybe just one more try: where do people get those white strips of foam, and where do you get that helicopter blade tape?


One more try... Go Getto (split tube) and start riding!


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

Here is a cheap source for 100 ft roll of 4" helicopter tape, which is commonly known as 'leading edge tape':

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3323

I've never used the vendor or the method. I've seen the stuff sold for a lot more $$$ though.

Edit: shipping will get you. ~$14 for me.


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

Our local shop posted this video two days ago. I have been a huge proponent of split tubes up until now- haven't had any problems with them, but I got a new tire (BUD) and tried this setup on my HRD with the BUD. I didn't use Gorilla tape, but some 70mm blue "Stans" tape. I was able to get it to seat up pretty quickly, but there was a LOT of seeping. After about 4-5 re-fills of air, and working the sealant around, it's been blown up for two days with no loss of pressure. I've taken it around the block and jumped a bit with it, and have taken the pressure up to 20 and down to 2-3psi with no burping or ill effects yet. I'm hoping it will hold up as well as my split tubes have.

Thanks to the guys at GBS!

Fatbike Tubeless Setup on Vimeo


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## SKFLOW (Jun 23, 2007)

*Fat Tubeless and Run Flat Protection*

I'm not a fan of tubes or ghetto tubeless method, so looked for a unique solution for fat tubeless.
After a little bit of R&D, the fat tubeless/run-flat setup is ready for action.

Prep rims by filling drain holes.
Tape up the rims using 3M 8898 wide tape.
Apply Gorilla Tape to seal at overlapping sections.
Add Stans tubeless valves.








Find suitable closed cell foam that is wide enough to fill the valley.
It must be stiff and thick enough to be slightly taller than the rim flange. 








Install the foam onto the rim.
There must be an 8-10mm of gap on each side of rim flange to allow for the tire bead to sit into.
Punch a small hole for the valve stem.
Make one pass and firmly tape the butted ends together with a long section of tape.








Mount tire onto the rim with soapy solution.
(Initially, you just need a floor pump with this setup and nothing fancy like a big compressor.)








Temporarily deflate the tire and remove the tubeless valve core.
Add tubeless sealant of choice (8 ounces per tire using home brew worked for me) and then reinflate.
Do the "Stan's Shake" several times and set on the side. 
Add air and repeat several times until fully sealed. 








Best part of this setup is the worry free riding at ridiculously low pressures. The tire bead has nowhere to go and will not unseat once setup. Also as I mentioned above, there is no need for an air compressor to seat the beads during setup or future rework.


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

FishMan473 said:


> I'd still need some foam to fill in the gaps so I can air up my tires. Where does one get those white foam strips.... And it doesn't compress over time?


I use a very thin foam meant to go under laminate floorboards. It comes in a wide roll (like one meter wide) so I cut it into suitably wide strips. The upside is that the weight is only 10-15 grams per tire, but it does compress over time. However, compression only affects things when seating the tire, and I've found it quite simple to just cut new strips when I install new tires. It's not something I do regularly anyways.

As for the SKFLOW method, I like it a lot. The foam isn't compressed under tape or a split tube, but it simply pushes the tire beads outboard to help them seal. You could probably swiss-cheese the foam to further reduce weight, but it does look quite light as it is. Not needing a compressor is a huge pro point in my book, because you might need to mount a tire in the field with the pump you brought with you. Two thumbs up from me!


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## bobkorn (Dec 6, 2011)

ozzybmx said:


> BURPING TIP.... for some reason a BUD or LOU seals up like a glove on marge lites, a Husker Du and a 3.8 Knard on the other hand has problems without the split tube method... dunno why. They spit sealant down the sidewall outside constantly and become a PITA. Ive even had a mate... He's a flyin machine too, lose a knard 1 lap into a 7 lap race... singletrack stories, might be different on snow YMMV.
> 
> I have had no luck with either on ML's trying to run them as a light set of tyre's.... prob just as well as i don't feel fat unless i'm rollin BUDZ.


I set up my 120 Nate and Knard on Marge Lites using Surly Rims Strips ONLY. I have a ML strip with a Clown Shoe strip over it and it works like a charm. I first seat the beads using a tube and inflating to 25 psi. Broke the bead on one side, pulled out the tube, re-inflated with a compressor to 25 psi to re-seat the bead, removed the core to add 4oz of Stan's, re-inflated and have been riding them for 3 months. I run them at 8-9 psi and I think I've had to add air maybe 3 times, usually when there has been a drop in outside temp.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

^the 3.8"/4" dont seem to have as good a fit as the bigger tyres, only my exp YMMV.

Need something else to beef the bead out like your rimstrips bobK.

Looking forward to 2014's goodies.... im expecting lots of fat wheel porn this year.


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## SKFLOW (Jun 23, 2007)

Saul Lumikko said:


> As for the SKFLOW method, I like it a lot. The foam isn't compressed under tape or a split tube, but it simply pushes the tire beads outboard to help them seal. You could probably swiss-cheese the foam to further reduce weight, but it does look quite light as it is. Not needing a compressor is a huge pro point in my book, because you might need to mount a tire in the field with the pump you brought with you. Two thumbs up from me!


Saul, thanks for the good feedback. I did have to retape the Clownshoe rims to build up the bead shelf a little higher with an extra tape layer to help the tire bead from oozing some sealant at higher pressures. The Bud/Lou tires doesn't fit tightly like a TLR tire. BTW, the foam strip weigh so little that I didn't really think about cutting out the center sections. If anything, it'll make it more heavier due to the sealant sticking inside the opened crevices of the closed cell foam like it did to the cut ends. If anyone wants to try, I used concrete expansion foam.

Happy New Year.


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

I experimented with a similar method, taping the wheel, and then adding two taped together kerf strips to push the tire outward. The thing I didn't like about it is that all of the surface area of the foam above the tape occupies some of the otherwise free sealant, increasing the amount of sealant required for equivalent sealing of a tape-over-foam method. 

Probably worth the penalty, though, if it works that well. Thanks for the detailed post BTW.


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## SKFLOW (Jun 23, 2007)

AllMountin' said:


> I experimented with a similar method, taping the wheel, and then adding two taped together kerf strips to push the tire outward. The thing I didn't like about it is that all of the surface area of the foam above the tape occupies some of the otherwise free sealant, increasing the amount of sealant required for equivalent sealing of a tape-over-foam method.
> 
> Probably worth the penalty, though, if it works that well. Thanks for the detailed post BTW.


Just as you described, 4 oz of a typical sealant brew had too much viscosity during the initial setup with the foam "run flat" strip. The workaround for this issue was to dilute the sealant formula 50% by adding extra antifreeze and water. This increased the slosh factor and reduced the tendency for the sealant to cling onto the foam. To compensate for the diluted sealant brew, 8 oz per tire was required. After the "setup" sealant oozed and evaporated a bit, I topped off the tires with the usual sealant brew formula to ensure flat protection.


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## mikeyonthemadone (Jul 4, 2009)

AllMountin' said:


> Here is a cheap source for 100 ft roll of 4" helicopter tape, which is commonly known as 'leading edge tape':
> 
> https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3323
> 
> ...


You are the man!! Thanks for the link.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

I used Gorilla tape + Rubena sealant (Stan's is not available here). And it is leaking around nipples. (B & L on CS) mur | 2013-12-28_Snehulak-tubeless ? rajce.net

The sealant corrupted the tape! 8-(
May be it is not exactly Gorilla...

I bought two downhill tubes, so I'll try the other possibility. If this will not work, I'll keep inner tubes. 8-(


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

AllMountin' said:


> Here is a cheap source for 100 ft roll of 4" helicopter tape, which is commonly known as 'leading edge tape':
> 
> https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3323
> 
> ...


Dayyyum ! 

$20.99 for the tape . . . . . . hmmmmm ok fine I can live with that :thumbsup:

$65.98 shipping for 1 roll of tape . . . . . . . this I can't live with :nono:

Why is it so expensive to ship the damn stuff ??? 

Anyone wanna club together for shipping to the UK ? 

JK it would probably work out $65 per roll to ship LOL

Any other sources for tape of this kind in the UK please that is of a similarly reasonable price ?

Other than the extortionate "helicopter" / "frame protection" tape sources .?

Fat Biker


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

P.S. Any one found a cheap UK source for a suitable tube to cut up for a fat bike tubeless conversion ?

TIA


Fat Biker


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Murphy1976 said:


> I used Gorilla tape + Rubena sealant (Stan's is not available here). And it is leaking around nipples. (B & L on CS) mur | 2013-12-28_Snehulak-tubeless ? rajce.net
> 
> The sealant corrupted the tape! 8-(
> May be it is not exactly Gorilla...
> ...


The Gorilla tape doesn't even need sealant and I've yet to see any instance of sealant "corrupting" the tape. Pull the tape extremely tight and if you are overlapping the tape, overlap it at least an inch. Run the tape to the outside of the rim, push it into the bead area and then trim to the outside of the rim. I recently installed a new tire and didn't realize I was nearly out of Stans. I had just enough to smear around the bead. It's working fine.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

bobkorn said:


> I set up my 120 Nate and Knard on Marge Lites using Surly Rims Strips ONLY. I have a ML strip with a Clown Shoe strip over it and it works like a charm. I first seat the beads using a tube and inflating to 25 psi. Broke the bead on one side, pulled out the tube, re-inflated with a compressor to 25 psi to re-seat the bead, removed the core to add 4oz of Stan's, re-inflated and have been riding them for 3 months. I run them at 8-9 psi and I think I've had to add air maybe 3 times, usually when there has been a drop in outside temp.


So it somewhat works as long as the psi is kept well above what most people run their tires at when riding on Snow?


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## crashtestdummy (Jun 18, 2005)

alphazz said:


> The Gorilla tape doesn't even need sealant and I've yet to see any instance of sealant "corrupting" the tape. Pull the tape extremely tight and if you are overlapping the tape, overlap it at least an inch. Run the tape to the outside of the rim, push it into the bead area and then trim to the outside of the rim. I recently installed a new tire and didn't realize I was nearly out of Stans. I had just enough to smear around the bead. It's working fine.


Without sealant, what is the point? You will still get flats from thorns and such, then you will have to install a tube to get home.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

crashtestdummy said:


> Without sealant, what is the point? You will still get flats from thorns and such, then you will have to install a tube to get home.


No thorns in my case. For me is fatbike only snowbike. It can ride only white surface. 
I just need to be able to keep air inside the tire.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

alphazz said:


> The Gorilla tape doesn't even need sealant and I've yet to see any instance of sealant "corrupting" the tape. Pull the tape extremely tight and if you are overlapping the tape, overlap it at least an inch. Run the tape to the outside of the rim, push it into the bead area and then trim to the outside of the rim. I recently installed a new tire and didn't realize I was nearly out of Stans. I had just enough to smear around the bead. It's working fine.


I can buy only 5 cm wide Gorilla and the rim is 10. I put 4 layers: 2 strips on sides, 1 centered and again 2 and 1. Overlapping was 1 inch. And after one day the wheel started to leak around nipples. When I removed the tire, Gorilla was like wet paper. The tape itself was OK, but the glue looked like chewing gum. 8-(

B & L (120 TPI) cannot be set without sealant as they loose the air through sides.

But now the sides are sealed by sealant already, so I can try next week once again this "dry method".

How many layers of Gorilla you put to the edges of rims? (Interesting for me is especially if you have Clown Shue and Bud and Lou 120 TPI.)


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## bobkorn (Dec 6, 2011)

alphazz said:


> So it somewhat works as long as the psi is kept well above what most people run their tires at when riding on Snow?


I have run them as low as 5 psi without any issues.

Just wanted to update - Rode them at 3.5 psi this weekend and they held just fine.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

crashtestdummy said:


> Without sealant, what is the point? You will still get flats from thorns and such, then you will have to install a tube to get home.


Sorry Crash, I wasn't clear. Murphy said his was leaking around the "nipples". Assuming he was talking about his tubeless setup, my comment was that Gorilla tape shouldn't leak and therefore there shouldn't be any leaks from around the nipples. The possible leak areas should only be around the valve and the bead area.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

alphazz said:


> Sorry Crash, I wasn't clear. Murphy said his was leaking around the "nipples". Assuming he was talking about his tubeless setup, my comment was that Gorilla tape shouldn't leak and therefore there shouldn't be any leaks from around the nipples. The possible leak areas should only be around the valve and the bead area.


The problem is that Gorilla in US can be different from that in Czech. 8-(
But if not, then it must leak around valve as I thing now. Because when the wheel was inflated, red rim tape was blown a bit from Gorilla. When I pressed on these red bubbles mur | 2013-12-28_Snehulak-tubeless ? rajce.net there was space. Around rim bead it looks tightened enough. I removed only foam layer, not the "Gorilla rim tape" (now it is again like this mur | 2013-12-28_Snehulak-tubeless ? rajce.net) and installed tubes again for this weekend in Alps. Next week I'll try original notubes valves, not home made. I still have enough of sealant to wet tire bead a bit and valve bottom.

*Which type of valve?* I can buy this American classic tubeless ventilky, 2 kusy - ?ervený - kupkolo.cz which seams to have quite narrow bottom, or this CafféLatex tubeless ventilky, 2 kusy - kupkolo.cz but it is for two layer rims. So I have to add some spacers...

*Is there any trick how to seal the valve best to Gorilla? *


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Murphy, your tape job looks great. Two comments though: It appears you use soap and water either to get your tire on or to check for leaks. If you use your sealant around the bead, you will see when it seals and it will seal better. Second, I really like a tubeless schrader valve for how tough they are and how tight they can be sealed. But if you like presta (I'm not sure why anyone would), get the American Classic.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

Uaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! 8-(((
Still leaking around valve and nipples near it. And still have red bubbles that are not in touch with Gorilla...
One possibility: I'm not able to tape the wheel the right way.
Second: Tubeless valves have too narrow "collars". 


Split tube, or tubes! 8-(((


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Murphy, I looked at your tape pictures again. Make sure there is no foam under/around the valve inside the rim. The valve should tighten directly on the taped rim with no foam under the tape in that area. You don't need to tape over the valve as you show in your picture. Tape the wheel, then put a hole through the tape for the valve. Personally, I think the tubeless schrader valves are the sturdiest and easiest to use.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

alphazz said:


> Murphy, I looked at your tape pictures again. Make sure there is no foam under/around the valve inside the rim. The valve should tighten directly on the taped rim with no foam under the tape in that area. You don't need to tape over the valve as you show in your picture. Tape the wheel, then put a hole through the tape for the valve. Personally, I think the tubeless schrader valves are the sturdiest and easiest to use.


I peeled off all foam + some Gorilla.
So I have rim tape + 5cm Gorilla in the middle + 2x 5cm Gorilla on sides + 5cm Gorilla in the middle + 2x 5cm Gorilla on sides 5cm Gorilla in the middle.
I used soldering iron to make the hole through Gorillas.
I inserted tubeless valve (and glued it little with something like glue for patching tubes).
I used a cotton stick to wet around valve "boot" with the sealant and also tire beads and then played a bit with fitting the tire (without any foam, just few layers of Gorilla as I already mentioned) and finally inflated it.

Red rim strip in two windows on both sides of the valve were blown to bubbles, so it was separated from Gorilla. And (no surprise) it started to bubble around nipples and cutouts in rim - in the joint of rim and rim tape.

It looks that I'm not able to fit valve into taped rim. 8-(
Valve has rubber "boot", there is glue between valve and Gorilla, there is a sealant over this to be sure and ..... still... 8-(

It's almost 4 AM here. I give it up for now, tomorrow I'll try split tube probably.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

That's interesting. I also couldn't help but notice that what you are using is not what is Gorilla tape in America.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

alphazz said:


> That's interesting. I also couldn't help but notice that what you are using is not what is Gorilla tape in America.


That is probably the problem. 8-(
When I peeled off foam and some layers, it was almost the same feeling as if I peel protective foil from display. Almost the same tape in previous roll was problematic to peel off and the glue on it was more like chewing gum. OK, I'll try once again with another tape.
You can see the difference in texture here mur | 2013-12-28_Snehulak-tubeless - rajce.net and these https://www.hasoft.cz/images/univerzalni-textilni-paska-zesilena.jpg https://www.denbraven.cz/dokument-produkt/308/univerzalni-textilni-paska.jpg ?
It also looks like the reall Gorilla (last two links I hope) is more soft and plastically. But on first look they are the same. Do they look the right way?
Is Gorilla the same as ducktape?

Here - also two duck tapes from google from our .cz urls. https://shop.lepiky.cz/obrazky/749.jpeg https://www.safetyshop.cz/data/products/01656_8fhxwujy.gif

But it took so much time that I can buy for lost time/money almost new Walmart fatty. 

Strange, some of shops name it DUCK TAPE, some DUCT TAPE... ))


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## WyldWeazel (May 9, 2011)

Gorilla tape is the "big brother who shaves" of duct tape. It's physical strength is much greater than duct tape let along the adhesion factor.

Side note. Duck tape is general use silver tape... True duct tape is rated for heat and is used to seal heating ducts.

Good luck!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

Finally I found real Gorilla, but it is cca for the same price as helicopter tape from 3M (I tried to contact local 3M dealer.) - it means three time the duct from supermarket. And I have to order it over internet, it is not available nearby. 8-(
So duct tape should be OK or not regarding particular manufacturer, Gorilla is for sure?


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Murphy, the grey tape that you have pictured earlier is Duck/Duct tape. It is not even close to the strength and adhesion abilities of Gorilla tape. I didn't look back in the thread to see who suggested helicopter tape but I would rather use Gorilla tape. I have never seen any problems with sealant or air for that matter getting through Gorilla tape. Once your rim would be taped as nicely as you taped your rim in the pictures you provided with real Gorilla tape, your only possible leak areas would be around the bead. Maybe you should hook up with someone here in America to send you some Gorilla tape.


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## DITCHMAN (Dec 10, 2013)

I have been tubeless for a few years with no problems till recently. We build a new groomed single track in our area which is very fast but has a ton of little ups and downs. Well now I am burping like crazy as well as everyone else that rides there, I am done with tubeless on the back for now anyways.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

DITCHMAN said:


> I have been tubeless for a few years with no problems till recently. We build a new groomed single track in our area which is very fast but has a ton of little ups and downs. *Well now I am burping like crazy as well as everyone else that rides there* , I am done with tubeless on the back for now anyways.


Too much soda before the ride on the "ups and downs" will do that to ya 

Fat Biker

P.S. Sorry couldn't resist LOL


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

Today I stoped for a while (one hour long lection) in local 3M dealer. They have several types of duct tape even those like Gorilla. I bought 3939 tape "heavy duty, strong hold, for tough jobs" and also 764I PVC tape with the same strong glue, but without canvas. Both 5 cm wide. My idea is to tape the middle of the rim over holes with duct to create a support for PVC one and then PVC (like tubeless rim strip) two on sides then one centrally again. This one is 100% airtight.

*I'm just hesitating if to enlarge valve hole in the rimstrip to alow my tape to stick directly to the rim or let it like it is now. This small improvement should imho do a lot of work - it will totally lock whole rim.*

If this will not help, I'll buy Gorilla over the net, but the guy in the shop seemed to know their product and he believes, it will work. The only difference is UV, but this is not my problem in this case.

3M also has some tape 7.5 cm wide that could do the job of tape and foam in the same way, but it was three times more expensive than Gorilla (and here it is cca two times the price in US), so I had no will to experiment.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

This may work...

JVCC TPS-04 Appliance-Grade Tensilized Polypropylene Strapping Tape at FindTape.com.)

This works well for narrower rims...

JVCC TPS-01 Light Duty Tensilized Polypropylene Strapping Tape: 1 in. x 60 yds. (Black) - Amazon.com


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Murphy1976 said:


> ...*I'm just hesitating if to enlarge valve hole in the rimstrip to alow my tape to stick directly to the rim or let it like it is now. This small improvement should imho do a lot of work - it will totally lock whole rim.*
> 
> ...The only difference is UV, but this is not my problem in this case....


I would eliminate the rim strip and just do tape.

As far as the UV goes, it depends on how fast you intend on riding once tubeless. If you will be riding at the speed of light, you might need UV protection. :thumbsup:


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

alphazz said:


> I would eliminate the rim strip and just do tape.
> 
> As far as the UV goes, it depends on how fast you intend on riding once tubeless. If you will be riding at the speed of light, you might need UV protection. :thumbsup:


But I like my red rimstrip.  I already cut wider hole.

Eliminating rimstrip means search for other tape, pictures, ... or what I'll have in rim windows...

Or I can just tape the rim with 3M and wait what will decorate my rims automatically during first ride.


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## dtaylor (Jul 22, 2010)

*Bam!*

Argh
Got my BFL 's setup, then a set of B+L's came my way.

I used gorilla tape with no foam and couldn't get them to seal.
I was really getting frustrated so.....in a fit a anger

Sprayed in some starting fluid, chucked in a match, and WHOOMFF!

Man did it set up nicely . I did notice the tire was a little warm, but in my excitement thought nothing about it.

Tried the Bud , no explosion, just a smoking fire inside the tire!

Yikes, put it out with Stan's ... maybe I'll get me some foam ( or maybe use propane) next time..

At least I got one tire done..


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Murphy, certainly you can find tape with enough color for you. If I'm doing it, I make two wraps with the colored tape, tack it in place with very small pieces of tape, and then tape over it with the Gorilla tape.


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## idahodirt (May 6, 2010)

Has anyone tried tubeless with the new Specialized 90mm rims and Ground Control tires yet? Any thing to watch for?


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

^there are a couple of posts about it in the specialized forums. Appears the most common approach right now is just Gorilla Tape. Seems to be working.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

alphazz said:


> Murphy, certainly you can find tape with enough color for you. If I'm doing it, I make two wraps with the colored tape, tack it in place with very small pieces of tape, and then tape over it with the Gorilla tape.


Bastards! It's like in totality many years ago - in US they have everything... 
I found here only japan tapes made from rice paper! 
JAPONSKÉ LEPÍCÍ PÁSKY Z RÝ?OVÉHO PAPÍRU - LÉTO V PAPELOTE ZÁ?Í BARVAMI A NÁPADY | iluxurylife.cz

And I can also order some special tape with anything I want printed on it, but I'm not sure I will need 100 rolls of it. 8-(

OK, I'll have original red ones. I still like them as they harmonize with whole bike mur | 2014-01-02_Snowdoor-Saalbach ? rajce.net


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

Murphy1976 said:


> But I like my red rimstrip.  I already cut wider hole.
> 
> Eliminating rimstrip means search for other tape, pictures, ... or what I'll have in rim windows...
> 
> Or I can just tape the rim with 3M and wait what will decorate my rims automatically during first ride.


You should have no issues taping over the original rimstrip. Just make sure the tape strips amply overlap each other and cover edge to edge and have good contact with the rim itself at the edges.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

tjdog800 said:


> You should have no issues taping over the original rimstrip. Just make sure the tape strips amply overlap each other and cover edge to edge and have good contact with the rim itself at the edges.


This is what I suspect to be an issue - the only non covered and sticked edge was the hole for the valve... I'll do some photos in the evening.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

You are on track Murphy. It's not that taping over the rim strip is a problem in general, but as you are experiencing, the valve hole can be potential leak area. Also, the plastic rim strips that many use stretch at a different rate than the tape and it is a little ugly.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

Now I have this:









Rimtape with wider valve hole
silver in the middle
2x silver on sides
silver in the middle

Now I will use this on sides and then in the middle again:
3M 764I YELL GEN PURP VINYL TAPE - Buck & Hickman
I was said it is definitely airtight.

And at the end I'll use silver to tape a bit of "mirelon" foam. (I have no compressor.)

A while later:









The valve hole I punctured by solder.

Beggars must not be choosers - this used tubeless valve I received as a gift in my favorite bike shop.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

It's a Long Way to Tipperary .... Sorry, to tubeless. 8-(

I inflated the wheel. It looks quite airtight even without sealant, no leaking around valve and nipples (tested by soap water), but:

















Why are there these bubbles? And even more - it looks each has it's own source of inflating air as they aren't of the same size! Red rimtape is blown out from silver tape. Could anybody say, where the air found it's way between rimstrip and the tape? Why it is not leaking around nipples in that case?

Taping looks like that:








:madman: :madmax: :madman: :madmax: :madman: :madmax: :madman:


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

You have a leak through the tape to the inside of the rim tape.

Ive had a wheel leak into clear tape i had, i could see the air gap between the foam and clear strip... it lasted till i changed the tyres without causing me any issue.

It looked a bit different as the front wheel had a flat profile and the rear had mega bubbles. Depending on your rim strip strength it could pop.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

So you think the air leaks THROUGH the tape, or BETWEEN layers?

I put there an inner tube and inflated for few minutes. May be it was too short... In that case I'll try to leave inner tube inside for hour or two on 15 PSI.

Popping is just what I'm worrying about. Rim strip is original Surly. 8-(


(Till changing tires? Why? What was different? Thicker tire bead or so?)


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Just changing tyres from worn ones to new ones... nothing technical. I then retaped the bubbling wheel.

My guess is that it is getting under the tape at the rim bead, hard to diagnose without seeing but its basically a retape job unless its escaping past your tubeless valve. I use either the round rubber valves or recently American Classic valves with the "O" ring on the sealing surface.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Murphy1976 said:


> It's a Long Way to Tipperary .... Sorry, to tubeless. 8-(
> 
> I inflated the wheel. It looks quite airtight even without sealant, no leaking around valve and nipples (tested by soap water), but:
> 
> ...


Murphy1976 Don't know if your taping diagram is "correct" as you only have the tape in the bottom of the rim ?

Might I suggest that you extend the tape "up" the inside of the rim so the bead of the tyre forms an air tight seal against the tape and _NOT_ the rim .
If the tyre is not making *a good seal AGAINST the tape* then there is a good chance that this is where the air is bleeding under the tape
causing your bubbling decorative rim strip .

It needs to be something like this -









Hope this helps ?

Otherwise I would look at trying to source something wider to completely cover your rim .

Some have even used "saran wrap" / "cling film" (the clear stretchy plastic food preservation covering)

It needs to go around the rim approximately 10-15 times but it is extremely light so the weight penalty is minimal .

Good luck

Fat Biker


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

ozzybmx said:


> My guess is that it is getting under the tape at the rim bead, hard to diagnose without seeing but its basically a retape job unless its escaping past your tubeless valve. I use either the round rubber valves or recently American Classic valves with the "O" ring on the sealing surface.


I have found that the valve nut needs to be *EXTREMELY* tight on the rim when going tubeless to prevent leaks .

Even having recourse to Vice Grips or pliers 

Fat Biker


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Also be careful if you get AC valves. They are very blingy and look the dogs bollox but they are alu and snap easily if you get a bit rough with a pump. 

I have never broken one but going on reviews it seems some are. Might extend this to vice grip tightening the AC's too


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Murphy1976 Have you seen this ?
They post to Czech republic . It is expensive .
But it may save you a lot of stress and heartache .

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=151158285759

Fat Biker


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

ozzybmx said:


> Just changing tyres from worn ones to new ones... nothing technical. I then retaped the bubbling wheel.
> 
> My guess is that it is getting under the tape at the rim bead, hard to diagnose without seeing but its basically a retape job unless its escaping past your tubeless valve. I use either the round rubber valves or recently American Classic valves with the "O" ring on the sealing surface.


Valve is imho OK, as these bubbles are also on other side of rim and on the way from valve there are also cutouts without bubbles... At least hope so. And concerning bead - you see on the picture. It does not look this will be a problem. But I'll check.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Are you saying the AC valves might not stand upto "air ratcheting" either ? :eekster:  

Fat Biker


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Hmmm... you could be the tester of that one then let us know how long they lasted (in seconds)

I think all the issues with these come from using a hand pump with a fixed head.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

Fat Biker said:


> Murphy1976 Don't know if your taping diagram is "correct" as you only have the tape in the bottom of the rim ?
> 
> Might I suggest that you extend the tape "up" the inside of the rim so the bead of the tyre forms an air tight seal against the tape and _NOT_ the rim .
> If the tyre is not making *a good seal AGAINST the tape* then there is a good chance that this is where the air is bleeding under the tape
> ...


I have "a bit" of tape on sides. May be not enough high? That could be the problem. Also the tape might crumple a bit... I'll add one ply of red tape on each side OVER rim edge.

ThanX for this remark.
And also for nice picture of black sperms. :devil:


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

LOL it takes a "special eye" to see that  ; D


Fat Biker


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

Murphy1976 said:


> ... Also the tape might crumple a bit...


The tape should be pulled tight and flat with NO "crumples". Crumples are an easy path for air and sealant to leak out/through/under.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

tjdog800 said:


> The tape should be pulled tight and flat with NO "crumples". Crumples are an easy path for air and sealant to leak out/through/under.


I meant accidentally - during installation or fitting the tire on the rim. After taping there were no crumples at all.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

As Fat Biker mentioned, taping to the outside of the rim eliminates any possibility of air getting past the tape at the bead. I always do this and I think it works great. Using a 2" wide tape and pulling it very tight, leaving about 1/2" to the outside of the rim. I then use something round and smooth to push the tape into the bead area before trimming the tape on the outside of the rim. The tire will pull the tape in a little when it seats.
Mine look like this when they are ready for a tire.


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## The Squeaky Wheel (Dec 30, 2003)

After multiple attempts, I finally was able to convert a Bud & Nate on Rolling Daryls using only tape.

The trick for me was extending the tape up the sidewall similar to that shown in Fat Biker's diagram and Alphazz's photo. But in my case I took it a bit further and pulled the tape up & over the sidewall, then trimmed off the excess tape with an exact knife so that the tape actually covers the bead hook as well. I pressed the tape down flat with a tire iron and inflated the tire with a tube to seat everything.

I have 6 rides and have had zero burps or fluid leaks thus far and am pleased with the results.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Fat Biker said:


> Even having recourse to Vice Grips or pliers


I got caught out in the trail one time with a vice grip tightened stem that I couldn't get off after a sidewall tear. Luckily someone came along who had pliers. If you need to go that tight, just make sure you have something with you to remove it out you need to revert to a tube.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Jisch said:


> I got caught out in the trail one time with a vice grip tightened stem that I couldn't get off after a sidewall tear. Luckily someone came along who had pliers. If you need to go that tight, just make sure you have something with you to remove it out you need to revert to a tube.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


LOL

I *AM* "that" guy that has the pliers and the spare tube , and the spoke key and the . . . . . . well you get the picture .

Been biking too many years and got caught out too many times with different problems to _not_ have the tool to fix it .

I think the learning curve that educates you to carry the tool to get you out of a jam , starts sometime after the third mile of hiking back to the trailhead :skep:

Fat Biker


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

I am that guy too, I probably have repaired other people's bikes at a 2:1 ratio compared to my own repairs. I didn't adjust my tool kit based on my taped rim. Another plus for split tube in my eyes.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## DITCHMAN (Dec 10, 2013)

I still can't get past burping:madman:


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## The Squeaky Wheel (Dec 30, 2003)

DITCHMAN said:


> I still can't get past burping:madman:


If you haven't done it, maybe extend the tape up & over the bead like I did, then cut off the excess with a knife. My setup has been flawless since doing this.


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## DITCHMAN (Dec 10, 2013)

The Squeaky Wheel said:


> If you haven't done it, maybe extend the tape up & over the bead like I did, then cut off the excess with a knife. My setup has been flawless since doing this.


Might try that or ghetto, I kinda think it's Lou on a Clownshoe with low pressure and an occasional jump that's causing the problem though.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

alphazz said:


> As Fat Biker mentioned, taping to the outside of the rim eliminates any possibility of air getting past the tape at the bead. I always do this and I think it works great. Using a 2" wide tape and pulling it very tight, leaving about 1/2" to the outside of the rim. I then use something round and smooth to push the tape into the bead area before trimming the tape on the outside of the rim. The tire will pull the tape in a little when it seats.
> Mine look like this when they are ready for a tire.


I did the same with red plastic tape, without any flattening of the tape after I just put tire with tube on and inflated to cca 17 PSI. Now it stands for 3 hours, so I hope it is done and prepared to be inflated as notube... If not and if I'll be long time offline, then I'm probably hanging on some tape on my bikestand...









It looks really better! :thumbsup:
Without any foam - just tape. And ONLY floor pump, no compressor! ))
But I'm not sure if it is not only temporary as I still have some air between rimstrip and first layer of the tape. But it could be only residue from last attempts. At least I hope so.
I'll keep only one wheel for now and if it will make it through next weekend biking (if we'll have snow finally), I'll do secon one also.

So far without sealant:









ThanX to all for now. Not having You ... 

Still under pressure. It lost From cca 17 to cca 10 PSI during night through tirebead. Without sealant it looks great it can hold 10 PSI.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Fingers crossed . Good luck buddy 


Fat Biker


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## Lars_D (May 24, 2011)

Any views on what the least amount of sealant you should use is?


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Lars_D said:


> Any views on what the least amount of sealant you should use is?


Depends on the purpose of the sealant. If it's to seal up leaks around the bead, one could just smear Stans around the bead and call it good. If it's to prevent flats from punctures or cuts, then I would say a couple of ounces after the tire is sealed.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Yeah^ a couple of scoops works beautifully, then just keep an eye on it over time and top up as necessary.

You can "dip" your wheels to check stans level by letting the wheel settle with the valve at the bottom, remove core and use a thin wooden stick to go down inside the core, if you pinch the tyre slightly to make the fluid pool this will let you see if you still have some sealant in there to seal a hole when you need it.... then just top up using a syringe when needed.

I have just about worn out my rear Bud, Is that a first ? So the set have been ridden 3000km+ with only spiking the rear once with a stick and it sealed, never a flat in either the front or rear.

It will now be put away and kept for the Simpson Desert race later in the year.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

ozzybmx said:


> ...I have just about worn out my rear Bud, Is that a first ?...


Nope.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

alphazz said:


> Nope.


Well that's a good thing, never heard of anyone wearing a Bud or Lou out before.... My HuDu's didn't even last half that. Got the UL freshies waiting on carbon rims.


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## Way2ManyBikes (Aug 24, 2011)

easterntide said:


> correct. all i did was do three layers of gorilla tape (left/right/center), melt the valve hole out w a soldering iron and put air in w a compressor. providing that seals up ok i then take out the valve core and huck some stans in and shake.
> so far its worked flawlessly on 3 efforts on rolling darryls W/O cutouts.


I did the same on mine with the cut outs and left the rim strips.

Applied 3 layers of gorilla tape over the rim strip.

Wiped the non drive rim bead with Stan's.

Put a tube in set the beads.

Deflated the tube & remove Trying not to break the bead on the non drive side.

Break the non drive side free

Install Stan's valve stem / core removed

Wipe drive side bead with Stan's. Set 80% of the bead, put in 4 cups of Stan's.

Lay it down on the drive side and hit it with air from my small compressor.

Spin it a few times and mount it on the bike and go ride.

Completed in 30 minutes.

100 miles later @ 5psi. No problems


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

Great. I tested my tubeless setup unexpectedly. Yesterday I got a call - do You wanna ride a race? I said yes. 
This race is Jizerska 50 - official long reach race for XC skis, but this year is almost nothing to ride on.
We started in three on fatbikes very quickly, not to have troubles with few xc skiers, but then we have not seen anybody else. We did it in 3 hours 22 minutes.
2014-01-12-Jizerska_50 - Bikemap - Your bike routes online
See the galery: Na tra� zrušené Jizerské 50 se vydalo nìkolik stovek nadšencù - iDNES.cz (I have red/white Duratec.)

EDIT:


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## dtaylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I converted my BFL's to tubeless this weekend. The Gorilla tape was smoothly stretched so it would cover the vertical part of the bead rim but not over the lip: no wrinkles allowed!
I set the bead with the tubes in, then broke on bead on one side, removed the tube and inserted the valve.
With no valve core and teflon tape my car tire inflator was insufficient. I used a rope to squeeze constrict the tire resulted in wrinkled tire but was able to set the bead with lots of pushing and manipulation.
The rear I gave up on and went to the bike shop and got it set with some of the tire massaging .
But I'm much happier to be tube free now!


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

I used no foam and only floor pump.
Also I skipped any lubrication. So I grasped the tire in the middle of sidewall and pulled it to the rim edge each 5 cm. As there was no lube, the friction was enough to keep the tire on the rim cca 1 cm from bead. In this situation, floor pump was enough. 
After inflation an setting the bead, i just deflated and bent the tire to one side and then to other, to be able to drip the sealant around bead.


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## Way2ManyBikes (Aug 24, 2011)

Has anyone tried the new gorilla tape clear repair yet ?










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

While the clear tape might work, I don't like the slick tapes for the entire process. I don't think slick is what is wanted in the bead area.


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## ECU-Yukon (Jan 14, 2013)

Looking to convert my stock mukluk to tubeless. Will be using my stock RD's and 27tpi Nates and going with the method outlined in the vimeo video a few pages back. Anything I should lookout for? 3" gorilla tape, stans valve stems and sealant, anything else? Also what are they using to remove the valve stem during installation?
Thanks
E.P.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

ECU-Yukon said:


> Also what are they using to remove the valve stem during installation?


Pointy nosed pliers... or any pliers that are handy will do.

In the scheme of things to come, that's the least of your worries :lol:


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## Ridingbozeman (Jan 13, 2014)

Just got my Hudus on Darryls set up. The back is still in question but none of the project would have been possible without the feedback from this thread. Thanks to all the people who knew what they doing.


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## Seakers (Jan 19, 2014)

Way2ManyBikes said:


> Has anyone tried the new gorilla tape clear repair yet ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I used it after drilling my rims. I use a red duct tape over the holes and then a layer of clear on both side. It is a little stretchy so no wrinkles. Set one side with a tube and then the other side with a compressor. Worked on both front and back. Added some Stans though the valve. Has worked on about 10 rides since then with only a soft tire on the first ride. Which I was able to pump up with a hand pump.


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## Sean Duggan (Sep 4, 2013)

Holy Rolling Darryls
Knard tires 120tpi folding
Clownshoe 75mm rim tape
150ml (3 small bottles full) Stans for each rim
A tube to mount tyre beads
Stans valves

Fit rim tape
Mount tire with a tube, I leave overnight to shape the tire at 30psi
Deflate tire and unseat one bead of tire, remove the tube.
Fit the Stans valve without the valve core (to improve air flow speed)
Use a compressor to inflate the tire (i do this with the wheel laying on the ground with the seated bead up so gravity wants to pull the other bead down (a little bit of water on the bead to make the rubber slip might help also)
Tire should inflate and snap into place, I inflate to 30 psi, then let the tire deflate, add the Stans fluid through the open valve, refit the valve core and pump up the tire to 10 or 12 psi and bounce it around the garage to splash the Stans about inside.
Some liquid will leak, don't worry just top the air up again, go ride, maybe add some more air if it drops again. Then forget about it as it'll be fine once the Stands has sealed any gaps.

I've had 100% success with this method.


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## cactusjk (Jun 26, 2011)

My first post so try to hold back!

I am considering this method for Holy Rolling Darryls and 45N Dillinger 26 x 4.0", 120tpi Folding tires.

To make sure I have it right just use a CS rim strip and no tape or second strip?

Sounds too easy.



Sean Duggan said:


> Holy Rolling Darryls
> Knard tires 120tpi folding
> Clownshoe 75mm rim tape
> 150ml (3 small bottles full) Stans for each rim
> ...


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

I would highly recommend not trying to just use the Surly rim strip. It might work but it is likely to fail at a moment you'd rather it didn't.


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## cactusjk (Jun 26, 2011)

There is a good thread on using the Clownshoe strip on Marge Lites:

Installed the strip an I am amazed on how perfectly the strip fits into the rim. You'd swear it was made for it. One strip of regular duct tape, tube and 25-30 psi and it looked great, no over bulging out the holes. Going to leave it them around 20 psi until I do the conversion, but it seems pretty fool-proof so far. Looks like the way to go with Marge Lite 
rims.

I would prefer to stay away from duct tape if possible.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

So I had a bunch of spoke nips break on my wheels (not cuz of tubeless) and needed some new tubes for the split method. lbs didn't have the q-tubes, but another bike shop had Specialized tubes. 

The Presta valve components on the Spesh are in every way superior to the Q-tubes. Much more stout, my pump latches on to the valve much better. Overall I feel like it is a Kia vs. MB quality. Only thing that sucks is no removable valve core. 

Not a Speshy leg humper (although I do love my 92 Stumpy), but would rec there tubes to anyone.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

I have non-removable cores on my bike, it sucks to have to break a bead to add Stans. I use split tube and I can't cut them flush in one spot so I can break the bead and reset it to add Stans.


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## cactusjk (Jun 26, 2011)

Any updates on how your wheels are holding up?



Sean Duggan said:


> Holy Rolling Darryls
> Knard tires 120tpi folding
> Clownshoe 75mm rim tape
> 150ml (3 small bottles full) Stans for each rim
> ...


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## Sean Duggan (Sep 4, 2013)

Sorry slow reply.. they're still rolling fine, not needed air since halfway through the first ride when they fizzed a little stans still. I'm riding 10+ hours a week on them and couldn't be happier.


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## cactusjk (Jun 26, 2011)

Thanks for the update. Also saw this video:Fatbike Tubeless Setup on Vimeo

I am pretty much ready to make the conversion!



Sean Duggan said:


> Sorry slow reply.. they're still rolling fine, not needed air since halfway through the first ride when they fizzed a little stans still. I'm riding 10+ hours a week on them and couldn't be happier.


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## Sean Duggan (Sep 4, 2013)

Hi,have you actually seen this method fail or is it just a guess? as I've been blasting around on it since early November 13 (nearly 4 months) and put in many hours in the New Zealand summer with zero issues and that includes leaving the bike in a locked car where the tyres would experience some serious heating and it's not failed yet.Sean


alphazz said:


> I would highly recommend not trying to just use the Surly rim strip. It might work but it is likely to fail at a moment you'd rather it didn't.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Sean Duggan said:


> Hi,have you actually seen this method fail or is it just a guess? as I've been blasting around on it since early November 13 (nearly 4 months) and put in many hours in the New Zealand summer with zero issues and that includes leaving the bike in a locked car where the tyres would experience some serious heating and it's not failed yet.Sean


I have but not in heat. I don't know if it makes a difference.


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## cactusjk (Jun 26, 2011)

Anyone know of when Stan's is going to release the wide tape to the masses? Speedway Cycles is out.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

cactusjk said:


> Anyone know of when Stan's is going to release the wide tape to the masses? Speedway Cycles is out.


Prob at the same time they release their wide rim to the masses. Should be soon.


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## Drew Diller (Jan 4, 2010)

jonshonda said:


> Prob at the same time they release their wide rim to the masses. Should be soon.


I hope they release that 50mm-ish rim as well, one that was captured in a spy shot or trade show or something. I like those for summer, most of the stuff I ride is _kinda_ but not super sandy, so I like to ride sorta-fat and reduce some self-steer up front.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

Needed some extra traction in the snow as the HuDu's weren't getting it on the local climbs.
Set up Nate on Rolling Darryl last night and it was the most trouble I've had with Ghetto Tubeless. 
First tried to just air it up with a compressor but the tire was too heavy and loose on the rim. 
Then tried to run a strap around it to try to press the beads out. Still no go.
Lastly, folded back one side of the ghetto-strip, put in a regular tube, and seated the ghetto-side. Pulled the tube, repositioned the ghetto-strip and BINGO! Tubeless Bliss again.
Still took less than an hour to complete it but was more trouble than the HuDu's and Escalators i've been running.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

cactusjk said:


> Anyone know of when Stan's is going to release the wide tape to the masses? Speedway Cycles is out.


3M Scotch 8898 Packaging Tape | 42302 | RS Hughes Industrial Supply

If you can navigate the site, there is 72mm wide available too.


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## rschultz101 (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks ozzybmx !! now I can buy a couple of roll's without having to buy whole cases !


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

tjdog800 said:


> Lastly, folded back one side of the ghetto-strip, put in a regular tube, and seated the ghetto-side. Pulled the tube, repositioned the ghetto-strip and BINGO! Tubeless Bliss again.
> Still took less than an hour to complete it but was more trouble than the HuDu's and Escalators i've been running.


Get one bead set and you are 90% there, set the wheel on a bucket so the weight of the tyre is hanging down on the unset bead... set bead facing upwards, give it a soap and it should go.

Helps if you have a high volume compressor (with tank) to give it that initial blast.


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## cactusjk (Jun 26, 2011)

Good! My Beargrease shipped today.



jonshonda said:


> Prob at the same time they release their wide rim to the masses. Should be soon.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

ozzybmx said:


> Get one bead set and you are 90% there, set the wheel on a bucket so the weight of the tyre is hanging down on the unset bead... set bead facing upwards, give it a soap and it should go.
> 
> Helps if you have a high volume compressor (with tank) to give it that initial blast.


I didn't mention the bucket and did it exactly that way... Worked perfect!


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## neal_b (Apr 4, 2007)

*Burping Nate when climbing*

Thanks for all the info in here. After reading this entire thread a second time I took the plunge this weekend.

Front wheel, two rides no leaks. Surly rim strip + 4 strips of overlapping 48mm 3M Blue tape, no foam. Tape came out kind of crinkly but all the edges sealed well.

Rear wheel one ride constant burping when climbing steeper snowmobile trails. Surly rim strip + foam + 4 strips of overlapping 48mm 3M Blue tape. All the tape is smooth and has held 20 psi overnight before and after the ride.

Tires are mounted on Holy Rolling Darryls

Also, both tires got 4 scoops of Stan's sealant.

I started the ride out with 7psi but I think the torque on the tire is breaking the bead seal. The tire did not slip and the beads were still seated even after riding it about a mile completely flat (too tired to keep pumping it up at the end).

Anyone experience this with Nates? Any suggestions?

Thanks


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

My #1 suggestion against burps is build up the Bead Seat Diameter of the rim, so the fit between the tire and rim will be tighter. 

Did the tire require a bit of pressure and lubrication to seat? 
Did it "plop" with a snappy sound twice?

If the answer to either (or both) is no, chances are the bead doesn't fit tightly enough.


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## neal_b (Apr 4, 2007)

Thanks

The tire was lubed from coating the tire bead with the sealant. Definitely snapped when the beads seated as well.

The tire didn't rotate even while riding it completely flat but I'll try building up the seat area.


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## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

set my marge lites up tubeless yesterday, using a red clownshoe rim strip and a single wrap of gorilla tape around the center to prevent bulging. Filled the tires, a Vee Snowshoe in front and a Vee 8 in the back, with 3 scoops of Stans & about +20 psi and rode home 5 miles on pavement. This morning, both tires were still very firm. I'll call it a success!


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## celdred1 (May 3, 2007)

Searching Amazon they also show RS Hughes selling 96mm wide 3M blue standard packaging tape with the same specs. wouldn't that work best on my 90mm rims so I can get the tape out and up the bead for seating purposes? I have a Fatboy and people seem to suggest getting the tape all the way to the bead and even up a bit so the tire locks everything in place. Thanks for any insight.


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## cactusjk (Jun 26, 2011)

Did you use clear Gorilla Tape?



Gigantic said:


> set my marge lites up tubeless yesterday, using a red clownshoe rim strip and a single wrap of gorilla tape around the center to prevent bulging. Filled the tires, a Vee Snowshoe in front and a Vee 8 in the back, with 3 scoops of Stans & about +20 psi and rode home 5 miles on pavement. This morning, both tires were still very firm. I'll call it a success!


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## cactusjk (Jun 26, 2011)

Any updates on Stan's wide tape?


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

celdred1 said:


> Searching Amazon they also show RS Hughes selling 96mm wide 3M blue standard packaging tape with the same specs. wouldn't that work best on my 90mm rims so I can get the tape out and up the bead for seating purposes ?


In theory it would be better to use the right width tape, eg 72mm or as you have found 96mm.

Its very hard to control where the tape goes if trying to do it all in one go, trying to tape a few millimetres up the bead wall with the thicknesses of foam varying from person to person needs slightly different widths and the strength needed to pull this thickness tight all the way around while perfectly covering 2 beads sounds like a multi-tasking exercise and as you know its only women who multi-task 

The tape overlaps on itself and sticks beautifully and using 2 wraps of 48mm (one each side) and overlapping it in the middle lets you pull it really tight and controls how much you put up each bead wall.


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## Tincup69 (Sep 5, 2012)

Thinking about taking the plunge myself.

Was going to grab these valves

This tape 

I'm looking for the right kind of foam, preferably one available through Amazon if possible, could someone recommend some?

I have regular Rolling Darryl's and Big Fat Larry's. Down the line I will probably switch to Hudu's.

Thanks for any help.


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## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

cactusjk said:


> Did you use clear Gorilla Tape?


I used black. As an update, I'll add that the gorilla tape has essentially failed, there is a small amount of Stan's between it and the rim strip, although the continue to hold about 20 psi of air, for over a week. I will eventually remove it as it's not necessary and only adds weight.


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## exp18 (Feb 15, 2012)

Saul Lumikko said:


> My #1 suggestion against burps is build up the Bead Seat Diameter of the rim, so the fit between the tire and rim will be tighter.
> 
> Did the tire require a bit of pressure and lubrication to seat?
> Did it "plop" with a snappy sound twice?
> ...


I have been playing around with tubeless for a while and have a system that I have had good success with. It does not use gorilla tape which I have had fail because of the liquid sealant after time. I have found what Saul Lumikko said about the building up the bead seat to be very important to get a good seal that does not burp or leak over time.
I have tried a lot of different way but most of this winter I have been do this method with low and high pressures have done a couple long races with a lot of abuse and have not had any failures.

What I have been doing is keeping the rim strip in place and installing the rim back on the bike ( it just makes it a lot easier ) adding ¾" wide electrical tape to the rim against the bead lock 2 layers on each side has worked good for me. This tape will lap over the rim strip a little bit.

Then I lap 2 more layers of 1 ½" electrical tape, these layers I lap up over the vertical part of the rim ( the bead lock) so when the tire is seated you will see about an 1/8" of the tape showing.

Next I use the 6 wide shrink wrap on the cardboard handle, wrap the rim with it keep it tight and equal amount on each edge of the rim. You should get a nice concaved area between the rim beads which will help when airing up your tire. I do a minimum of 6 layers, then before I cut the shrink wrap I add a bead of silicone across the shrink wrap to seal it from getting any tire sealant between the layers of shrink wrap.

Install your valve stem

Install your tire as normal then spray soapy water around both beads this will help the tire slip on to the bead seats. On 100MM rims I normally have to put a ratchet strap around the center to get it to air up. 80mm rims I find a lot easier to get to air up.

Once they are aired up spray the soapy water around the rim and the beads to check for leaks. Most of the time if the tire fit tight on the rim you will have no leaks or very small leaks that will seal with tire sealant.

If I have a leak in the bead that I think might not seal with tire seal or just for added protection, once the tire has been aired up let the air out of the tire roll the tire over so that the bead opens up you can squirt silicone in it make sure it gets all the way down in the bead. Air up the tire and clean off the excess with de-natured alcohol.

After that I let some air out and put the tire sealant in through the valve stem. Make sure you use removable core valve stems. I have noticed my tires leak all over the side walls as they get older before the sealant is installed. But seal right up with sealant. 
Trim the excess shrink warp by trimming it with a razor blade. I try to leave about an 1/8" .


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## neusaab (Mar 22, 2006)

*Fatboy conversion*









I converted my Fatboy wheels as follows:


removed the factory rim strip
1 layer 1.88" digital camo Duck tape backed by 1.88" clear 
packing tape
3 layers 1.88" Gorilla tape, 1 per side abutting the vertical rim wall and overlapping the Duck tape, the 3rd down the middle
set overnight with the original tube at 25 PSI
unbeaded one side, pulled the tube 
tubeless valve with removable core, through a hole drilled through the tape slightly smaller than the valve
aired up with a compressor, beads "popped"
tested for integrity; held air without sealant
6 oz Stan's through the valve, reinflated. Tiny bit of sealant seen at a couple of spots on the bead after the "shake."

So far, so good! No air loss or burps running 5/6 PSI F/R on snow-packed trails in New Hampshire.

Weight loss of 0.65# per tire, 1.3" total.
Thanks to everyone who's posted throughout the forums for the advice on setup.​


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## exp18 (Feb 15, 2012)

Looks nice neusaab what rim and how wide is it ? 
I think a lot of the trouble with going tubeless is all the different rim and tire combos and the inconsistencies with the manufactures pacifically the tires. I find that you by 2 tires at the same time and type one can be tight on the bead and the other be loose. I don’t think there is much quality control in place by the manufactures.


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## neusaab (Mar 22, 2006)

It's the stock Specialized rim, 90 mm.

Spesh is doing allright with the quality control; both of these rims and tires set up exactly the same for me. Some luck involved, I'm sure.


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## ZipMTB (Jan 29, 2004)

*Tubeless Success - HuDu and HRD*

After reading through every thread, posting, musing, etc. I decided to give it a go.

Things I learned:
- HuDu with wire bead is a PITA
- HuDu with 120 tpi - super easy
- HuDu with 120 tpi has VERY thin casing. Long term durability seems questionable.

Anyway, I wanted a compromise between the tubeless benefits for a fattie (rolling resistance and flats) and what ever I could do to minimize weight. I ended up with a hybrid Gorilla Tape and 3M tape. It looks like I was able to do both with about a 1/2 pound loss in each wheel.

First I cut the Gorilla Tape (GT) to about 1/2 inch. Then placed one strip all the way around each side to build up the wheel a little and get a good seal for the Rim Strip.








Then I ran one strip of the 3M tape around each side. I stretched it as tight as I could. Here is one side done.








To help with the stretching, I placed a piece of PVC pipe between the spokes and stepped on it while I stretched the 3M tape around.








Finally, I stretched on more strip of 3M tape right down the middle to seal up the seam of the two outside strips. It looked like over time this would be a place to leak. And at about 4 grams per rotation, well worth the insurance.








After that, pretty standard. Put tire on, aired up with tube. Pop Pop!

Break one side, remove tube and place Stans valves.

Turn wheel so broken bead is facing down and blow up with compressor. Pop, Pop!

Even holds air without and Stans.

When all was said and done, I saved about 150 gr. per wheel. So, not a huge weight savings, but then that was not the primary goal. Now to go ride and see how she feels.

Thanks to all for posting up what worked and didn't. First try, about 30 min per tire and 100% success.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Nice work ! Looking good.


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## NitroRC Ed (Feb 27, 2010)

Seeing how yesterday was Tuesday and all I gave it a shot 

Rims are Surly Holy Rolling Darryl's 
Tires are 45NRTH Dillinger

Front wheel I setup with a strip of sill foam trimmed down to fit in the valley. Then I found some poly tape at Lowes (see the picture). Seemed to have a nice stretch ability and contoured well and was 48mm wide - bonus was it only cost $7.50 for 60 yard roll. I ran a strip down one edge as close as I could get the inside and then repeated on other. All this after cleaning the bead area on the rim first. What I didn't do was any prep on the bead area on the tire itself......

So as you'll see in the picture I get a bit of seepage from the bead area - especially if I go over 10psi. It sat over night and still had about 8-9psi in it but when I added some to have it set up a bit more it started seeping out around the bead area again...

Now the rear tire I just went ahead and did the split tube - wham bam the thing was still holding at 15psi this morning and no seepage anywhere :thumbsup:

I'm considering just pulling the front back apart and doing split tube on it and calling it good.

Ed


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Split tube rules. After fighting tape, undermining of adhesion, fighting wrinkles etc. I don't see the point of going through all this when a split tube is probably not any heavier and its instantly waterproof.


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## digidelia (Oct 28, 2011)

not to mention the adhesion between the tube and the tire makes burping a rare event


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## Morej (Oct 18, 2011)

gcappy said:


> MCS, here is my procedure for NATE's on Clownshoes/
> Install Surly rim strip:
> Install Q-Tube, 24 x 2.75, inflate a little, straighten the seam, slit all the way around with scissor, wipe off powder:
> Install NATE:
> ...


+1 on this!


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## rda (Jan 8, 2014)

if anyone rides a lot of water/mud, go split tube! i went g tape when i first got bike this year, rode in snow for several months no problem. Snow melted, then mud riding started. cleaned drivetrain using simple green after one of the mud rides, next ride couple days later and tire went flat leaking around the rim holes. the simple green had gotten under the tape and ate the adhesive. i ended up re-taping rim since i didn't have tubes to go split tube. was riding last weekend and front tire went flat from same issue. never used simple green up there so i can only assume it was due to all the water i've been riding in. 

I have 24" tubes now, so converted front over last night. couldn't believe how much easier it was. Not sure why i went g tape method before. Will do rear once i get some more stans.

speaking of sealant, when i was putting tube in on trail to get back to truck i checked inside for thorns first. i couldn't believe how many were in there! i bet there were at least 20! some were almost touching inside of rim! tire was still holding air before tape gave way, so that proves how good stans and going tubeless is if you ride in a thorny area like i do. I would have had 20 flats to fix if not for stans and tubless.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

Jisch said:


> Split tube rules...


:thumbsup:


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

Originally Posted by gcappy 
MCS, here is my procedure for NATE's on Clownshoes/
Install Surly rim strip:
Install Q-Tube, 24 x 2.75, inflate a little, straighten the seam, slit all the way around with scissor, wipe off powder:
Install NATE:
Tie a rope around NATE and tighten enough to push tire out to bead area:
Inflate with normal hand pump until tire bead seats:
Remove valve core and add Stans, re-install valve core, pump to desired pressure:
Trim off excess Q-Tube:
Ride!

NO foam, no tape, no problem!



Morej said:


> +1 on this!


So many posts about other methods other than the split tube. Some work and some don't. Some work temporarily. For me it's split tube from now on. It's the easiest and surest system until they make all the rims and tires tubeless.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

I have no arguments against spilt tube and reckon what cappy says is spot on, until sh1t becomes regulated standard, its a fool proof sure way of achieving tubeless easily.

Some people go tubeless for benefits of not having trouble with tubes, some do it for the weigh saving.

Personally i do it for both, if there was a weight gain i would be on the fence, the weight saving definitely give me the drive to achieve it with every set of wheels i own.

BTW apart from my latest setback with the new 90mm carbon wheels, every set of wheels i own now are carbon fibre and tubeless.


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## rda (Jan 8, 2014)

ozzybmx said:


> I have no arguments against spilt tube and reckon what cappy says is spot on, until sh1t becomes regulated standard, its a fool proof sure way of achieving tubeless easily.
> 
> Some people go tubeless for benefits of not having trouble with tubes, some do it for the weigh saving.
> 
> ...


flat protection is what i was after first, weight savings second. even if it made it heavier but made you less likely to get a flat i would still do it. flats suck!


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

It would have to be a good gain (should have said), the puncture protection is second to none. I have had my fill of pumping up a fat tube to find a hole, nevermind eventually pumping the tyre up to recc'd pressure.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

ozzybmx said:


> ... Some people go tubeless for benefits of not having trouble with tubes, some do it for the weigh saving...


... and some to lose the roll resistance of the tube - let the tire deform & reform on its own.

And as this conforms easier to the terrain, better float? better traction? better feel?


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Decided to finally take the plunge on tubeless on the Fatty but where to get the Q-Tubes cheaply in the UK ?

Or an equivalent alternative ?

All I seem to be able to find are USA sites where shipping / import duties hike the price up to something near a cheap 29er tyre !



TIA




Fat Biker


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

But over there, you have reasonable prices for the Schwalbe. Nice rubber too. 
Here we can get:
Schraeder: AV10 (to 2.5") for 165g, AV10D (to 3.5", heavy duty) at 260G. 
Presta 40mm: SV10 (to 2.5") for 165G.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Yep... welcome to fatbiking.

If you think you are riding sh1t before all your mates, you'll be paying for it.

Jenson's... shipping is not the cheapest.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Shipping I can take on the chin . It is what it is . But the UK seems to swap the $ sign for the £ sign (without using the exchange rate) THEN add 20% V.A.T. (our tax) then add ANOTHER $15 at the post office just for their handling charge . It all becomes quite expensive quite quickly .

Maybe we could look into a UK group buy of Q-Tubes or something LOL

Remind me again why I like living here. . . . . . . . oh yeah that's right the gorgeous weather 


Fat Biker


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Fatbiker, im from Belfast 12 years ago, been there, done it...

Emmigrated here and the threshold is $999 so Chainreaction and Wiggle have a field day shipping sh1t to us, $80 order and its free, we do multiple orders just to get it past postage recs, one wheel here, one wheel there...


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## cujarrett (Jul 23, 2009)

I updated my tubeless conversion overview over on my blog: Tubeless Fatbike Conversion Update | Cycles In Life


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

Very nice job and write up!

EDIT:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to cujarrett again.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Great pics and write up. 

The rider in the last pic is having soooo much fun you can see the halo around his helmet. ;p


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## cactusjk (Jun 26, 2011)

Great writeup! Why did you go with the clear tape vice wide Gorilla tape that would only require one pass?


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## alshead (Oct 2, 2007)

FWIW, I've posted this elsewhere and I think someone posted it somewhere in this thread, but I've used split tube, gorilla tape, the 3M similar-to-stans tape, and nothing has worked as well as Leading Edge Tape. This stuff is bomber. 4", trim to fit. Can't say enough good things about it.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3323


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

This thread reminds me, I need to do up a fresh batch of sealant & fill the tires again before I get stuck out somewhere with a flat.


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## Idshooter (Oct 27, 2006)

alshead said:


> FWIW, I've posted this elsewhere and I think someone posted it somewhere in this thread, but I've used split tube, gorilla tape, the 3M similar-to-stans tape, and nothing has worked as well as Leading Edge Tape. This stuff is bomber. 4", trim to fit. Can't say enough good things about it.
> 
> https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3323


I was in the same boat and failed multiple attempts until I picked up some of that stuff. Finally succeeded and only lost a little over 1 psi over a week.


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## ZipMTB (Jan 29, 2004)

Just thought I would update all on the success of this set-up.

They held air better than almost any other tubeless set-up I have tried. (Original No-Tubes strips, Stans wheels etc) I almost never had to put air into them. I was even off the bike for two weeks and when I came back, the pressures were right where I left them 14 days ago. I must say I was pretty surprised.

I just replaced the tires with new 120 TPI HuDu's last night.

- Put on new tire
- Pump up tube to initially set bead
- Pull tube out
- Pump up with compressor, POP!
- Put three scoops of Stans, do the Stans shake.
- Checked on tires this morning and still holding 30 PSI

Time to drop the pressures and go for a ride.

I think this hybrid tubeless set-up is about perfect so far.



ZipMTB said:


> After reading through every thread, posting, musing, etc. I decided to give it a go.
> 
> Things I learned:
> - HuDu with wire bead is a PITA
> ...


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## ironpo (May 19, 2014)

thanks zipmtb
that's some great info there and looks super easy with the pics
nice neat job well done
cheers
ip


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

Just did a tubeless conversion for the first time... A couple of hiccups, but seems to have gone pretty smoothly all things considered. I'm going to add some of the details that I wish I had when I started.








Front Tire: Holy Rolling Darryl, Dillinger 5.
Split-tube size: 24"x2.75. I had a good 0.75" of extra tube to cut off when I finished, so this was plenty big.
Rim Strip: 2" wide retro-reflective tape from Amazon.
Rim: Couldn't find wide 24" Presta tubes, so drilled it out to accept a scraeder valve. 7/32" drill bit, and a circular file to debur and slightly enlarge the hole.
Foam: DEFINITELY needed the 2 thin layers of foam. the tire wouldn't seat even with a cargo strap around the tire without the foam. I used 2 layers of fairly thin foam underlayment left over from putting in my laminate floor (it was in the house). Instant tire seating without ANY trouble at all; no cargo strap needed.
Bead seated at ~30PSI.
Stans: Ended up with ~4oz in the tire. Meant to have more, but after the initial failure I lost several oz.








Rear tire: Marge Lite + D4 (Wire bead)
Same retro-reflective rim strip as the front.
24"x1.9" Tube. There was just exactly the right amount of excess materiel, didn't need to trim any off.
I just put the 2 foam strips in after my experience on the front wheel. Instant sealing, no trouble at all.
Bead popped at ~20PSI.
Stans: Poured ~3oz in the tire.

So far, tires have held ~30PSI for the last 4 hours with no trouble. I went riding around the lawn and up and down our little hill with them to help slosh the stans around. We'll see in the morning, but things are looking good so far.


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

Looks like success on the rear tire, and not quite enough sealant on the front. The Rear tire was 20PSI this morning, so seems to have sealed well. The front tire was down to 15, and when I looked in between the split-tube and the tire, I could see a little bit of bubbling near the top. I did the shake/roll again and it's slowed, but is still bubbling a bit. Probably need to add more sealant; I've ordered an injector so I can top it off without needing to break the bead.

EDIT: After about an hour of riding around the lawn with my girls, it looks like the bubbling has stopped. It may just be because I lowered the pressure to ~9psi, though. We'll see how stable it is. I think I'll still probably add some more sealant to be safe.


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## mattgVT (Nov 9, 2010)

Just to throw in my own experience - I had good luck with Marge Lites, split tube with 24x2.7" tubes, and Vee Rubber Snow Shoes. I have since switched the rear to a Knard, still with split tube - the Knard was a lot harder to get seated, but I finally did with just a floor pump. I recently changed the front wheel over, using no tube and just a clown shoe rim strip with a HuDu 120tpi folding bead - this has been perfect, no burping, no leaking, no issues whatever in over 100 miles of single track riding. I've added air once. I was surprised how well that worked. Pretty easy to air up, and super simple. Will give that a shot for the rear wheel when I switch over to winter tires soon.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Bontrager Jackalope.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

In the tradition of Tubeless Tuesday, I switch from my summer setup Hudu/Knard to my winter setup Bud/Nate. I forgot how much I *don't like* the process.

1) Dismount old tires, discard old split tube, clean sealant off hands and anywhere else it dripped.

2) There is not a snowballs-chance-in-hell that I can get either my 27tpi Nate or but to mount up tubeless using only a split tube. I utilize a thin pack foam from work, cut it to 6" width, then fold it over, and wrap it around the entire rim.

3) Mount the tube, air it up, center it on the rim, and then cut it.

4) Use a brush to remove majority of powder, then rag to remove the rest.

5) Mount tire on rim, add sealant.

6) Do the stans dance.

7) Pull tire beads as far out as I can.

8) Inflate with floor pump to 20psi.

9) Put wheel and the floor, sit on wheel, and bounce up and down while rotating to ensure beads are seated evenly.

10) Let setup sit overnight @ 20psi.

11) Mount wheels on bike and spin to ensure there are no major hops or wobbles.

12) Trim excess split tube material.

13) Deflate to riding pressure.

14) Reflect on how nice it would be to have a tubeless ready wheelset.

15) Fondle the wife.

16) Take a nap. :thumbsup:


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

I hope you never have a blow out at number 9!!!!!


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## bdundee (Feb 4, 2008)

gcappy said:


> I hope you never have a blow out at number 9!!!!!


But a blowout #15 would be acceptable and even wanted.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

bdundee said:


> But a blowout #15 would be acceptable and even wanted.


As long as no sealant gets in the eyes. :incazzato:


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

jonshonda said:


> 1) --14) (No sleep required ?)
> 
> *15) Fondle the wife.
> 
> 16) Take a nap. *:thumbsup:


Never met a woman yet that didn't tire me out one way or another either  

Fat Biker


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## gcappy (Jul 1, 2012)

jonshonda said:


> As long as no sealant gets in the eyes. :incazzato:


Oh great! Thanks a lot for that correlation. Now I will have to wear gloves when handling a bottle of Stans!!


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## WA-CO (Nov 23, 2013)

*Tubeless Wednesday.*

My attempt at Tubeless Tuesday on Wednesday.

Bike: Salsa BG
Rim: Holy Darryl
Tire: 45NRTH








1. Get crap @ LBS, 2 tubes, big bottle of Stans.








2. Pull Tire/Tube off Rim.








3. Mount up 24 x2.4-2.75 Kenda Q Tubes and split them.








4. Poke small hole in tube, feed in valve stem.

5. Do a trial run, get bead to seat on un-Stans'ed tire. It holds air!








5. Pull valve stem, feed in 4-5 Stans cups. (I later ended up just peeling a bit of tire from the rim and pouring the Stans in.)








6. Pump and slosh like a mad mutherfooker.








7. Trim off excess rubber.

8. Hurry up and wait.

Notes: I weighed the combo, and the tubeless was actually heavier. Hopefully the tubeless is worth it cause it was 6oz heavier each wheel.

The rear tire worked flawlessly. The front I didn't do the trial run bead seat step pump to 20+ lbs, and as a result it took a piss load more effort to get the front tire to pump up, and ultimately, a CO2 cartridge.

I didn't use any Gorilla tape. That may have been a mistake? Dunno.

No wife fondling required.

I'll update in the AM.


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## daverx1 (May 24, 2014)

Why didnt you just use the valve stem that was molded into the tube? That way you wouldnt have to poke a hole in your split tube.. Just wondering


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## Terp (Jul 25, 2013)

I'll play even though I actually did this on a sunday:

Summary: Split tube!

Materials:

Surly rolling darryl (1 3/8" holes drilled by yours truly)
120tpi Surly Bud
27tpi Surly Nate (stock of course)
24x2.75 Qtubes w/removable presta valve
Roll of dish packing foam sheets from home depot (they had underlaymet as well but it was 3x more$)
Stans
Blue surly rim strips

Method:

-I started out by cutting 6' x 2" strips of the foam packing sheets (folding it didn't work). This was the biggest PIA...until attempting to seat the bead. The foam was real thin so I started with 3 and ended up with 6 layers (attempting to seat after each layer which wasted a lot of time). Note: Try and find thicker foam.
-split the tube and cleaned the powder out, streched it over the rim/foam
-Mounted the tire and made sure all the components ended up as they should (split tube even, foam within the bead seats) and sprayed the edges down with soapy water
-Removed the presta core and used a compressor to seat the bead. The Bud seated well almost right away but the Nate took a lot of attempts. One small section just didn't want to seat. I was getting annoyed so I just put some stans in, pumped it up and ate dinner. When I got back it magically seated itself. 

I think the Nate lost some air but the temperature also dropped 50 degrees (literally) from when I inflated it. I've done 2 rides on it and so far so good!


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

Use a Stan's injector to install the sealant after the tire is seated. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## WA-CO (Nov 23, 2013)

daverx1 said:


> Why didnt you just use the valve stem that was molded into the tube? That way you wouldnt have to poke a hole in your split tube.. Just wondering


Hmmm...Other than the Q tubes don't have a removable valve core, which I use to add Stans, however given it takes 4 or 5 cap fulls, I may need to invest in one of those syringe things? Actually, I don't really have a good answer.

We'll see if the damn thing actually works. I didn't use foam filler or Gorilla tape so I hope it holds.


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## Sasquatch1413 (Nov 6, 2008)

I buy Q tubes specifically for split tube because they have removable cores. Didn't know you could buy Q tubes that didn't.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

WA-CO said:


> Hmmm...Other than the Q tubes don't have a removable valve core.


You maybe wanna edit this in an effort to not confuse others?


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2014)

hehe, stans goop, rubber gloves, valve stems and shake it all about like a paint shaker for 3min....:crazy: :lol:


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Every Q-tube I've used has a removable core.

The nextie rim I have on the front has been nicer to use so far, no split tube, no gorilla tape, just stans tape to seal the spoke holes, sealant, air, ride.

I let my rear sealant almost dry up & ended up fixing a flat trailside last week.


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## MRMOLE (May 31, 2011)

Shark said:


> I let my rear sealant almost dry up & ended up fixing a flat trailside last week.


With 6 bikes that use stans sealant and living in the desert (Phoenix, AZ) where a sealant recharge only lasts about a month in the summer, I run into this problem all the time. I carry a ziplock bag with 2 (2 oz.) bottles of stans and a tube of super glue (for small tears) and a few time just added a little water from a water bottle or camelback. The particles that seal up any hole are still in the tire, it's just the fluid that acts as a suspension agent dries up and the sealant can't get to the leak. While I've never tired this on my Salsa its worked numerous times on my and other peoples skinny bikes.
Mole


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

I need to try this!
Surely easier than getting covered in sealant goop while installing a tube to get out of the woods 



MRMOLE said:


> With 6 bikes that use stans sealant and living in the desert (Phoenix, AZ) where a sealant recharge only lasts about a month in the summer, I run into this problem all the time. I carry a ziplock bag with 2 (2 oz.) bottles of stans and a tube of super glue (for small tears) and a few time just added a little water from a water bottle or camelback. The particles that seal up any hole are still in the tire, it's just the fluid that acts as a suspension agent dries up and the sealant can't get to the leak. While I've never tired this on my Salsa its worked numerous times on my and other peoples skinny bikes.
> Mole


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## WA-CO (Nov 23, 2013)

WA-CO said:


> My attempt at Tubeless Tuesday on Wednesday.
> 
> Bike: Salsa BG
> Rim: Holy Darryl
> ...


The 24x2.4-2.75 DID have a removable core. So obviously I could have just split the tube and used them instead of a pair of Stans....Oh well...

Anyway, today was our first day of with decent snowfall. Dropped down to 10-ish psi. Rode for 2+ hours, both tires appear to be holding air fine.

The 24x2.4 tube is much much thicker than the 2.1. Had I used that, I doubt it would have worked. I hoped it was going to be this easy. I'm totally surprised it actually was.


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

I had an unexpected incident on my commute home today, and I'm hoping for some advice. I'm running a Dillinger 5 on a RD rim up front, and a Dillinger 4 on a Marge Lite in the rear, both set up split-tube. I was in the street portion of my commute, nothing too weird or bumpy and I suddenly got the strong smell of Stan's. Tires were still holding enough air for me to get home, and when I got there, all I could find were a few of streaks of stans on my front tire, presumably coming from the bead. The weird thing is that I can't have lost too much air; the tire still held 20PSI per my gauge. Is this just business as normal with tubeless, or did I miss something in the setup? It's my first tubeless run, so I'm a little nervous that I'm risking a more serious loss of air in the future...

Thoughts?


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## rkzhao (Sep 18, 2014)

evandy said:


> I had an unexpected incident on my commute home today, and I'm hoping for some advice. I'm running a Dillinger 5 on a RD rim up front, and a Dillinger 4 on a Marge Lite in the rear, both set up split-tube. I was in the street portion of my commute, nothing too weird or bumpy and I suddenly got the strong smell of Stan's. Tires were still holding enough air for me to get home, and when I got there, all I could find were a few of streaks of stans on my front tire, presumably coming from the bead. The weird thing is that I can't have lost too much air; the tire still held 20PSI per my gauge. Is this just business as normal with tubeless, or did I miss something in the setup? It's my first tubeless run, so I'm a little nervous that I'm risking a more serious loss of air in the future...
> 
> Thoughts?


One thought is that 20 psi (assuming that you had an accurate reading) is pretty high, especially considering the volume of a D5. With your weight and the weight of the bike and equipment and what not, it could be just that under load, it was a bit too much air for the bead to hold. Once the pressure went down enough, the bead was able to seal back up.


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

The reading was from an sks airchecker... Supposed to be pretty accurate. I just double checked the bead and it is fully seated on both sides. I upped the pressure to ease rolling resistance until the big snow hits... I can try 15 or so tomorrow, I suppose.


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## WA-CO (Nov 23, 2013)

Mine "weeped" for a couple of days as things seemed to settle in. I had 20+ for a day or so, while the Stans distributed, but I've since dropped the pressure down, and rode actually yesterday without incident.


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

I have been riding ghetto tubeless for some time now, and attempted to shave some weight.

Current setup: Clown Shoe rims, packing tape rim strip, Schwalbe AV-10D tube split. Tube weight around 260 grams (claimed).

Attempt 1: Schwalbe AV-7C (22" lightweight tube). Claimed 90 grams, weighed 100 grams. 
Result: The tube stretched over the rim very easily, despite being smaller than usual. However, it only spread out to 70 mm width, so for anything but "narrow" fat bike rims, forget it.



Attempt 2: Schwalbe AV-10 (the non-D version), weight 165 g (claimed). 
Result: it was promising but failed to deliver: 86 mm wasn't enough for the hundies. Anyone with Rolling Darryls might be interested.



I was attempting to save as much as 320 grams from rotating weight, but failed. I'll stick to the AV-10D's for now, because despite their weight they have been incredibly easy to set up and offered burp-free and otherwise totally "fit and forget" performance for almost two years already. I might look at the tape method at some point but we'll see.


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## OnThaCouch (Oct 2, 2010)

Hey all--
I've had my wheels tubeless for a couple of weeks now and have this "weeping" going on. Anyone experience this? Is there a way to not have this happen?

This is on my front wheel. Last weekend it was both wheels but now the rear seems fine. Both wheels seem to be holding air fine and have ridden them without issues.

Any constructive ideas appreciated. Thanks.

EDIT: When I mounted the tires I never did get the "pop" that generally happens when I've seated other tires (not fattys) tubeless. Should I be inflating until I hear the classic "pop"? The tires seem to have seated well and roll well, just not sure why the weeping is happening.


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## j0hnj0hns (Dec 26, 2014)

*Tubeless and cheap fat bike rims*

This forum is awesome, full of good ideas and I've learned from other's mistakes before I made them myself.

I thought I'd share my latest attempt as I have cheap rims that have no beadlock/bed at all and this has caused issues a bit later on (after the initial setup). There is no satisfactory "pop" of the bead locking in and the tyre could move away from the rim edge and burp air.









The split tube method worked beautifully for me and after I packed up the rim with foam (the tyres are incredibly loose on the rim) I could pump it up with a floor pump easily.









What happened though is that the foam would flatten down under pressure and then when I ran too lower psi (<12psi) or put a lot of lateral force onto the tyre, it would come away from rim and burp all the air out.

After reading what ozzy did with memory foam/latex I chopped a strip off someone's yoga mat and used that as my padding. (No it's not light but for now I'm keen to see it works). The gaps down the side act like a bead lock.









All good to go. I'll lower the psi and see how the edges hold up over the next few rides.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

I read through this thread (very helpful!!) and have a question. I have an older Pugsley I'm converting to tubeless. It has the old Large Marge undrilled wheels and I have the Larry 3.8 tires. I went with the Gorilla tape method and a Stan's presta valve. I had the tires aired up at 30psi with a tube for about 30 hours and now I'm pulling the tube and attempting to finish the process. The tire seems to seat okay with a slight bit of bubbling along a few spots on the wheel rim. But there are also bubbles coming up along the sidewall. I know that the non-tubeless tires will leak through the sidewalls, and I did a tubeless conversion on another bike using Pisgah tires and they leaked for a day through the sidewalls and the Stan's sealant eventually sealed everything. Should the same thing happen with the Larrys, or will it take forever and 8 oz of sealant to eventually seal them? I didn't add any sealant to the tires yet because if I have to do something else, I don't want to deal with sealant running all over when I pull the tire off.

Thanks for any replies.

Andy B.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

andy b. said:


> ... old Large Marge undrilled ... Larry 3.8 tires. ... Gorilla tape ... Stan's presta valve. ... 30psi with a tube for about 30 hours ... pulling the tube ...
> 
> - a slight bit of bubbling along a few spots on the wheel rim. But there are also bubbles coming up along the sidewall. ...
> 
> - I didn't add any sealant to the tires yet...


So what's bubbling if you didn't add any sealant yet?


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

HA!
Just soapy water.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

So, you didn't pay attention to the part about not having any contaminants to interfere with the sealant...

Do you have any RO/DI water to flush it out with? Including under pressure so those seeping paths you want the sealant to seal are clean and available to plug&bond?

Some sidewall leaking is taken care of by the sealant. Different sealant, different tires, different wear/seeping, = different results.

Others wash out the inside - so there won't be any contaminants - and pre-seal the inside surface. Diluted shoe goo, rubber cement, others... Search and see what makes sense to you, or what's been used for seeping Larrys, if not Surlys.

At least you caught this before you're getting sealant all over.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

It's just on the outside of the tires. The bead was about seated before I sprayed it on, so I figured since none was inside the tire, it should be okay. If need be, I can pop the bead again and check the inside. The bead seated fairly easily, so I don't think there would be a problem to do it. I only unseated one side to get the tube out and put the Stan's stem in. To tell the truth, it was more difficult POPPING the bead off, than seating it!!!

EDIT: I did clean the wheels and inside of the tires before attempting this. I also washed off the tubes I used. I think I should be okay from a sealant functioning issue. I didn't pay attention to the pre-sealing the tire part though. I can see where that might be a good idea.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Only on the outside is very good news!

Only what got between the rim and the tire from the outside. May cause an issue. I'd suggest to rinse that very very well.

You'll have to judge on:
is the mechanical seal good enough that sealant will finish the job (sealant won't fix a poor mechanical seal)(you're using Gorilla tape, which has the highest failure rate of any of the methods/materials)?
is the sidewall seeping low/little/minimal enough that sealant will seal it, or should the tire be presealed on the inside?


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

THANKS!!!!

I think the sidewall seeping should be okay now that I look at it. The Pisgahs leaked like that, but sealed up in a few minutes. If I lay the tires on their sides, it should seal.

I might pop the bead and wipe down the rim area though just to make sure no soapy water got in there. I don't think I'll use any water when I reseat it. I really don't think it was needed.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

And the mechanical seal of bead to tape over seat?
(sealant will seal, it won't fill gaps)
Given how easily it popped in, do you need another run around the rim to build the height up, or does it seem good to go?

p.s.
if your sealant has latex with ammonia: when you're laying it on one side (overnight?) to get that side's seeping sealed, you may offgas some ammonia through the up/unsealed side, which leaves the latex less protected from setting up. When you're done, consider topping up a small amount of ammonia to keep preventing the latex from setting up into the classic boogers. Otherwise you may end up opening, cleaning and replacing your sealant much sooner than you expected.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

Thanks for the tips!

I wouldn't say it "easily" seated, but I will say I had to really push on the sidewall to UNSEAT the bead.  I think I'm good with the rim height.

I'm going to have to check the sealant ingredients. I didn't think of the ammonia issue.

I just got back from a ride on a non-fast bike (I know, sacrilege!!! LOL), so I have to go play with this project again.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

*Carpet shield 9" wide tape, coroplast as a rim bed filler*

Here's a couple more options for tubeless setups. The first I posted somewhere else on here, but thought I'd add it to this post as well.
This is a rim profile which I was able to build up on a Weinman HL80 rim. Coroplast is the lightweight plastic cardboard stuff political signs are made out of. This is a 3" wide, 60+ inch long strip, with the ribs running lengthwise, and pretty much permanently fills the deep channel on this rim. This is to replace needing to reapply sill foam every time, which compresses down to nothing almost immediately. About a 60g weight gain over sill foam, but durable, structural and permanent if one so chooses. Down side, doesn't completely fill the void when running split tube with my snowshoes, so I still needed a compressor to seat the bead, not great, but much better than my attempts at trying it without the sill foam. Sill foam works great on this rim with the split tube method, for those wondering.








This is the next evolution in my tubeless adventures - on the HL80 again, without any sort of rim filler.







I came across this at the local hardware store. Its basically 9" wide, stretchable, puncture resistant tape that sticks to itself. I took two full wraps under light tension to remove all wrinkles, overlapping the presta valve hole, reinforced the seam with 1 strip of scotts tough tape, and two more small patches of scotts tough tape with the inner strands in offset orientation to reinforce the installed Stan's valve stem hole. I then mounted the snowshoe, installed Stan's via homemade injector through valve core, and inflated a snowshoe on an HL80 with a floor pump, no leaks whatsover, before doing the stan's shake. Mind numbingly simple setup, and no way to go any lighter than this (on this rim). Think of the saran wrap method, but the saran wrap is actually a tape, that's stronger, easier to install, seats perfectly to previous layer without any wrinkles or voids (hard to actually tell there's multiple layers down), stretchier and more durable. The adhesive backing helps it hold to the rim edge suspending it above the rim channel during mounting, creating the seal to the tire bead. Trimmed the excess close to the edge with a razor blade and called it good. Since the adhesive is rim side down, it won't crawl back into the rim like a split tube that burps at low pressure. If it wasn't for the stupid deep channel in the middle of the HL80's, this would be a permanent, lightweight solution. On other rims with a shallow cross section where building up the bed isn't necessary, this could be a one and done process. Hope this helps someone out.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Andy b, I use SlimePro Tubeless Tire Sealant, no issues with soap and water. No Stans booger either.

This thread drove me to ghetto tubeless, all that tape/foam looks to be a lot of work for a small weight savings.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

That's the same sealant I picked up, so that is good to know!!!

What did you use inside the rim to seal it? I went with the Gorilla tape. The front tire is very slowly losing some air somewhere. I'm going to give it until tomorrow to see if it seals itself up. Then I will have to consider what I do next.



pursuiter said:


> Andy b, I use SlimePro Tubeless Tire Sealant, no issues with soap and water. No Stans booger either.
> 
> This thread drove me to ghetto tubeless, all that tape/foam looks to be a lot of work for a small weight savings.


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## Espen W (Feb 4, 2012)

4 hours on Schwalbe Jumbo Jim Liteskin 4.8 in 5F weather today.
RTL tubeless setup *without* sealant.
Ran pressures all the way down to 2.5psi without issue.
The entire RTL setup is almost 60g lighter than a single Surly rimstrip (for 100mm).
Consists of: 100mm Tyvek rimstrip (12g), 4 loops (2 on each side ) of 1'' wide and 3mm thick pipe insulation tape (24g). 5 loops of Gladpack cling wrap (20g). 
Mount the tire and inflate with a mini pump.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

andy b. said:


> ...What did you use inside the rim to seal it?...


Ghetto tubeless, used a split tube, works like a charm. No tape, no foam, just the stock surly rim strip and a qtubes 24x2.75 presta tube. Look back in this thread, all the folks that don't have issues are running ghetto.

Here's my post:
http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/tubeless-clown-shoe-763666.html#post11661117]


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## crashtestdummy (Jun 18, 2005)

pursuiter said:


> Ghetto tubeless, used a split tube, works like a charm. No tape, no foam, just the stock surly rim strip and a qtubes 24x2.75 presta tube. Look back in this thread, all the folks that don't have issues are running ghetto.
> 
> Here's my post:
> http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/tubeless-clown-shoe-763666.html#post11661117]


My main issue with ghetto is if you trim your tubes, it's much more difficult to change tires. My current method is Scotch Tough Duct Tape and the only issue I have had is my Stan's drying out, which I also had when I used ghetto. I also need a better rim liner, I've been using Surly Clownshoe Rim Liners, and they have too much elasticity, but not as much as you would need at 20 psi.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

crashtestdummy said:


> My main issue with ghetto is if you trim your tubes, it's much more difficult to change tires. ...


So glue the edge to the rim seat with a tiny amount of poly-caulk or silicone sealant.


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## neons97 (Jun 11, 2013)

watermonkey said:


> Here's a couple more options for tubeless setups. The first I posted somewhere else on here, but thought I'd add it to this post as well.
> This is a rim profile which I was able to build up on a Weinman HL80 rim. Coroplast is the lightweight plastic cardboard stuff political signs are made out of. This is a 3" wide, 60+ inch long strip, with the ribs running lengthwise, and pretty much permanently fills the deep channel on this rim. This is to replace needing to reapply sill foam every time, which compresses down to nothing almost immediately. About a 60g weight gain over sill foam, but durable, structural and permanent if one so chooses. Down side, doesn't completely fill the void when running split tube with my snowshoes, so I still needed a compressor to seat the bead, not great, but much better than my attempts at trying it without the sill foam. Sill foam works great on this rim with the split tube method, for those wondering.
> View attachment 950522
> 
> ...


Can I get pictures with your option 2 below with the Quickshield Carpet tape? I'm having a hard time envisioning how two layers of this tape is enough to build-up the centre channel enough to allow you to inflate the snowshoe on the HL80 rim with just a floor pump.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

neons97 said:


> Can I get pictures with your option 2 below with the Quickshield Carpet tape? I'm having a hard time envisioning how two layers of this tape is enough to build-up the centre channel enough to allow you to inflate the snowshoe on the HL80 rim with just a floor pump.


Picture care of Plussa - taken from Fatboy thread.








See how the stretched cling wrap sits suspended above the rim channel? It's basically exactly like this, just 100 times cleaner. It's easy to seat the bead, and airs up with just a floor pump, and won't drop back inside the rim when unseated, so you can trim it hella close. I will post pics when I set up the back wheel next time. I was just too excited to see how well it would work to stop and take pictures the first time around. I also went with clear packing tape rim strip, so now I can see the Stan's sloshing around in the tire - pretty cool.


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## neons97 (Jun 11, 2013)

watermonkey said:


> Picture care of Plussa - taken from Fatboy thread.
> View attachment 950928
> 
> 
> See how the stretched cling wrap sits suspended above the rim channel? It's basically exactly like this, just 100 times cleaner. It's easy to seat the bead, and airs up with just a floor pump, and won't drop back inside the rim when unseated, so you can trim it hella close. I will post pics when I set up the back wheel next time. I was just too excited to see how well it would work to stop and take pictures the first time around. I also went with clear packing tape rim strip, so now I can see the Stan's sloshing around in the tire - pretty cool.


Thanks. I saw you said "saran wrap method", but couldn't see how two strips of this could sit suspended. This helps a lot. I've been looking for a way to go tubeless on the DHL80 and Snowshoe 4.5 (120tpi) setup I have.

Did you trim before putting the tire on, or after the tire gets put on?

Obviously the valve stem isn't suspended, right? It is screwed down tight to the rim? So this part of the saran-like wrap is stretched more than the rest of the material, hence your reinforcement with the Scotts Tough Tape?


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

What sealant are you guys using in your tubeless setups?

I went tubeless on my fat back in October useing "Orange Seal." It's been trouble free until this weekend. During a ride I had a puncture that would not seal. The temperature was right around freezing or just below. I could see sealant coming through the tire, but I could not get the sealant to stop the leak. I eventually used a tube to finish the ride. Back at home (in a 60 degree basement) the hole sealed quickly with just the sealant residue in the tire.

I switched to Stan's sealant to see if it works better (it's done fine in my non-fat bike). Have you guys had issues with Orange Seal when it's cold(ish)?


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## majack (Mar 10, 2010)

laffeaux said:


> What sealant are you guys using in your tubeless setups?
> 
> I went tubeless on my fat back in October useing "Orange Seal." It's been trouble free until this weekend. During a ride I had a puncture that would not seal. The temperature was right around freezing or just below. I could see sealant coming through the tire, but I could not get the sealant to stop the leak. I eventually used a tube to finish the ride. Back at home (in a 60 degree basement) the hole sealed quickly with just the sealant residue in the tire.
> 
> I switched to Stan's sealant to see if it works better (it's done fine in my non-fat bike). Have you guys had issues with Orange Seal when it's cold(ish)?


I have not had this problem with Orange Seal and I live in Minnesota so we do get cold weather. But this year I switched to Orange Seal Subzero that is good down to -20. I have not had a chance to see how well it works in the cold, nor do I want to see this happen, but I sure hope it seals like it is suppose to.


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## neons97 (Jun 11, 2013)

watermonkey said:


> Picture care of Plussa - taken from Fatboy thread.
> View attachment 950928
> 
> 
> See how the stretched cling wrap sits suspended above the rim channel? It's basically exactly like this, just 100 times cleaner. It's easy to seat the bead, and airs up with just a floor pump, and won't drop back inside the rim when unseated, so you can trim it hella close. I will post pics when I set up the back wheel next time. I was just too excited to see how well it would work to stop and take pictures the first time around. I also went with clear packing tape rim strip, so now I can see the Stan's sloshing around in the tire - pretty cool.


I just tried this tonight. But the rim leaks air like you wouldn't believe right at the rim's seam/joint. I don't know how air is getting under this quick shield. I'll have to take it all apart and re-do it to see what I did wrong and where I might have punctured it.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

neons97 said:


> Thanks. I saw you said "saran wrap method", but couldn't see how two strips of this could sit suspended. This helps a lot. I've been looking for a way to go tubeless on the DHL80 and Snowshoe 4.5 (120tpi) setup I have.
> 
> Did you trim before putting the tire on, or after the tire gets put on?
> 
> Obviously the valve stem isn't suspended, right? It is screwed down tight to the rim? So this part of the saran-like wrap is stretched more than the rest of the material, hence your reinforcement with the Scotts Tough Tape?


Trimmed after tire beads seated. Correct on the reinforcement with scotts tough tape around the valve stem, screwed down crazy tight. This is probably the one weak part of the system, and am thinking about going with a screw in motorcycle schrader valve - has way more surface area for sealing around the stem hole and much more durable (but a little heavier).







I really dislike the removable core presta stems - always seem to back out when I pull off the presta-schrader adapter. They do make lightweight aluminum ones, so the weight penalty won't be a big deal (remember - we're talking fat bikes here). I can still inject Stan's through a shrader for top off's.

I think this carpet shield configuration will be for my summer wheel setup, when I'm running higher pressures and much faster speeds where higher rotational forces come into play. I still think that the uglier split tube/sill foam setup is a superior configuration for running low pressures in winter as I think the bead to rubber contact seals better than bead to aluminum (or any other non-deformable substrate). That being said, I'm going to run this carpet shield setup till failure in the snow and then decide whether or not to stay with it or go back to sill foam/split tube for the rest of the winter.

I'm pretty sure my Stan's froze today while my bike was sitting outside in the snow in 15° temps. With the clear rim strip, I can bounce my tire and see the Stan's splash around in the cutout windows. After being outside for an hour, no sloshing Stan's. It might not have froze, but it could have been so thick as to be useless. Anyway, after bringing it into my office for 15 minutes, the sloshing stan's was back. Draw whatever conclusions you may, but it sure as hell wasn't -20°F out, which is the low end temp that the Stan's sight claims it works down to.


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## ChrisInYpsi (Apr 15, 2012)

How much of the tube edges are you split tube folks cutting off? 

My first set lasted a full year (till I sold the bike) and I left about 1/4" exposed. Just set up my new bike the other day (no foam this time - woohoo) and was thinking about trimming all the way down to the rim. Am worried about reseating the bead when I need to top off the Stans and remove the boogers. 

What is the wisdom of the crowd here?


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

watermonkey said:


> ... am thinking about going with a screw in motorcycle schrader valve - has way more surface area for sealing around the stem hole and much more durable (but a little heavier)... I really dislike the removable core presta stems - always seem to back out when I pull off the presta-schrader adapter. They do make lightweight aluminum ones, so the weight penalty won't be a big deal (remember - we're talking fat bikes here). I can still inject Stan's through a shrader for top off's...


There are what various posters have recommended.


Canoe said:


> Black anodized aluminum valve
> Gray anodized aluminum valve
> Silver anodized aluminum valve


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Those look perfect. If the KTM shop doesn't have any on the floor, these are getting ordered. Thanks Canoe!


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Welcome.
Although they really come thanks to the original poster(s) on this forum, likely earlier in this very thread. 
I haven't installed mine yet.


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## neons97 (Jun 11, 2013)

I tried the Quick Shield method three times tonight. I couldn't get them to set-up at all. Here's what I found:

- I can get this to seat with a floor pump...first time only.
- However, this is not a permanent solution. The film flattens down immediately under pressure and will not mount up a second time at all. Similar to what people say about the sill foam under a split tube.
- I tried three times, and all three times, I get significant air leaking from the rim's seam. Even with stan's, it isn't enough to stop leaking of the seam (which is not surprising)
- I suspect that the air is leaking through the hole in the film I had to cut for the valve stem. I tried a smaller and smaller slit each time, and more and more reinforcement around the valve stem each time, but no luck. 
- I'm using an original stan's valve stem. Not sure if another valve stem would've given me better luck.

I went back to my tubes.
-


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## TitanofChaos (Jun 13, 2011)

watery leakage? anyone have this problem?

set my clownshoes and dillinger 5's up tubeless about a week ago, they hold pressure fine, 20ish overnight when I set them up and 8-12psi (clyde ride pressures)

1 wrap foam in the center to keep the beads tight to the split tube when airing up

after rides I have a little bit of watery leakage from the bead in multiple spots, it's not like full on white stans leaking all over but just enough liquid to leave a little wet line on the tire

will this just seal up on it's own? should I just add a little more stans to be safe?

I've got 2 rides on them and haven't lost enough air to feel any difference


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

I've seen that too on my tires... Still seen occasionally after two weeks commuting. I just added more stans to my tires to be safe.


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

TitanofChaos said:


> watery leakage? anyone have this problem?
> 
> set my clownshoes and dillinger 5's up tubeless about a week ago, they hold pressure fine, 20ish overnight when I set them up and 8-12psi (clyde ride pressures)
> 
> ...


You might check and make sure your tire beads are fully seated on the rim. I usually have to air mine up to about 30psi in order to get the beads to "pop" into place when using the split tube method. I've got a bud that required 35psi for it to "pop" into the seat. The Surly rims have a nicely designed bead pocket and once locked-in with the split tube filling the pocket, they can be a bugger to pull off.

If they are not fully seated, you would get some leakage as the tire moves around a bit on the split tube. Once fully seated, there shouldn't be any leakage.


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

Wrap a spare inner tube around the tire to push it down and help the beads move to the sides, and you'll get the beads to mount even if sill foam or saran wrap (or similar film) has flattened.


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## BHRuss (Jul 24, 2014)

Anyone tried Vanhelgas' on tubeless ready rims like Mulefuts yet? I'm about to set them up and trying to decide how much protection I need to give them


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

New setup:


Clown Shoes
*rim tape* (Surly one - front, fatback reflective - rear)
*one layer of gorilla-like 3M tape* (in fact 3 wraps of 5 cm wide - left, right, center) to stick rim tape to the middle and to have more support than only from rim tape
*10 wraps of stretch foil* (from OBI market)
some *tubeless valves* - i *wrapped* them also cca 3 to 5 times *with piece of foil* to tighten the hole.
Bud & Lou

*soapy water* to seat the tire (using two hands floor pump)

Even when I tried some Rubena + something milk last winter season, tires were leaking.
So I added *latex-like home made milk* (Balakryl LATEX HOBBY 1,5 kg | = 2:1 with water) - just to fill up micro pores and tire bead.

Now it holds 20 PSI for 48 hours. 

I just removed inner part of valves and *sucked out remaining milk* with hypodermic syringe and inflated again. Looks good (when immersing into water).

Hope it will be sufficient for snow only riding.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

neons97 said:


> I tried the Quick Shield method three times tonight. I couldn't get them to set-up at all. Here's what I found:
> 
> - I suspect that the air is leaking through the hole in the film I had to cut for the valve stem. I tried a smaller and smaller slit each time, and more and more reinforcement around the valve stem each time, but no luck.
> - I'm using an original stan's valve stem. Not sure if another valve stem would've given me better luck.
> ...


I used some valves and wrapped them with stretch foil - this filled up any hole, if there was any.


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## TitanofChaos (Jun 13, 2011)

tjdog800 said:


> You might check and make sure your tire beads are fully seated on the rim. I usually have to air mine up to about 30psi in order to get the beads to "pop" into place when using the split tube method. I've got a bud that required 35psi for it to "pop" into the seat. The Surly rims have a nicely designed bead pocket and once locked-in with the split tube filling the pocket, they can be a bugger to pull off.
> 
> If they are not fully seated, you would get some leakage as the tire moves around a bit on the split tube. Once fully seated, there shouldn't be any leakage.


yeah... this didn't have a happy ending

I aired up to 30# and watched the bubbles slowly fizz all the way around the tire and then BANG!!!!! $170 worth of dillinger5 blew off the rim making me deaf and stretching the bead so badly that I can't even use it with a tube now


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

TitanofChaos said:


> yeah... this didn't have a happy ending
> 
> I aired up to 30# and watched the bubbles slowly fizz all the way around the tire and then BANG!!!!! $170 worth of dillinger5 blew off the rim making me deaf and stretching the bead so badly that I can't even use it with a tube now


That really sucks. I'm glad that didn't happen to me because I've been basically doing the exact same thing trying to get my Dillingers to set up tubeless without leaking at the bead. I had been hitting the tires with my compressor to get them to seat.

It seems like the only way I could make them stop leaking (hopefully) was to ride them and check the pressure/air them up when they need it.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TitanofChaos said:


> yeah... this didn't have a happy ending
> 
> I aired up to 30# and watched the bubbles slowly fizz all the way around the tire and then BANG!!!!! $170 worth of dillinger5 blew off the rim making me deaf and stretching the bead so badly that I can't even use it with a tube now


Sounds like the rim is too loose, I'd suspect the tire is still fine. Setting up D5s on my LB rims was tight, no way that could happen, but setting up nearly any tire on my old Floater rims was difficult because it was so loose.


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

Stupid question from a new Farley 8 owner... I am about to go tubeless (on the standard Jackalope wheels and Hodag tires), having bought all the stuff required.

I saw a post somewhere, once, where someone didn't use liquid sealer with the Jackalope, but every single other post on the subject (which seems to be non-Jackalope) uses a liquid sealer.

The Jackalopes are tubeless ready, so do I actually need to use the Stan's liquid sealer?


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## majack (Mar 10, 2010)

tpd said:


> Stupid question from a new Farley 8 owner... I am about to go tubeless (on the standard Jackalope wheels and Hodag tires), having bought all the stuff required.
> 
> I saw a post somewhere, once, where someone didn't use liquid sealer with the Jackalope, but every single other post on the subject (which seems to be non-Jackalope) uses a liquid sealer.
> 
> The Jackalopes are tubeless ready, so do I actually need to use the Stan's liquid sealer?


Yes, you need sealant in the tires. It is there for when you have a puncture and the sealant can seal it up and you can keep riding.


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## TitanofChaos (Jun 13, 2011)

Jayem said:


> Sounds like the rim is too loose, I'd suspect the tire is still fine. Setting up D5s on my LB rims was tight, no way that could happen, but setting up nearly any tire on my old Floater rims was difficult because it was so loose.


nope, the tire is toast, with a tube in it and the bead seated on one side, the other side is larger than the rim by almost 2"

I'll be contacting QBP today, they shouldn't explode like this when airing to labeled max pressure with a floor pump


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

majack said:


> Yes, you need sealant in the tires. It is there for when you have a puncture and the sealant can seal it up and you can keep riding.


Oh, so it's not there to seal the tubeless part, but only to prevent loss of inflation should I get a puncture?

So if I didn't use sealer then I'd be in the same position as if I was running tubed -- get a puncture and now I have a flat, right? I guess if I have a tube I can then try to repair that trailside but if tubeless with no sealer I'm stuck (unless I want to put a tube in, which I then have to carry everywhere).

Maybe I should go tubeless with no sealer, and just carry 5oz in a bottle with me when I ride. If I get a puncture I put in the sealer & re-inflate...

Someone tell me why this is a bad idea.


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## mtndude23 (Apr 18, 2012)

The sealant also seals the little porous holes in the sidewall of the tire, which will leak all the air as well. I think your putting to much thought into the tubeless thing. Once you have the tire sealed up-you're good to go. Unless you're changing tires every week, otherwise you can ride for months without worrying about it.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

tpd said:


> Oh, so it's not there to seal the tubeless part, but only to prevent loss of inflation should I get a puncture?
> 
> So if I didn't use sealer then I'd be in the same position as if I was running tubed -- get a puncture and now I have a flat, right? I guess if I have a tube I can then try to repair that trailside but if tubeless with no sealer I'm stuck (unless I want to put a tube in, which I then have to carry everywhere).
> 
> ...


Without the sealant your tire will likely hold air when mounted and work fine until your first puncture. Once the first puncture occurs you'll need sealant. While you could carry a bit of sealant with you and install it after the first puncture, it seems like extra work for little gain. To install the sealant you'll need to remove the valve core and release all of the air in the tire, then you'll need to add the sealant trailside, reinstall the valve core, and re-inflate the tire. Alternatively, you can add sealant initially and not need to worry about any trailside repair in the near future and use a floor pump or compressor in the warmth of your home.

In either case (adding sealant now or later) carry a tube with you in case things go wrong and the tubeless fails. Some punctures do not seal immediately, and large sidewall rips will not seal (and often require a tire boot to get you home).


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

mtndude23 said:


> The sealant also seals the little porous holes in the sidewall of the tire, which will leak all the air as well. I think your putting to much thought into the tubeless thing. Once you have the tire sealed up-you're good to go. Unless you're changing tires every week, otherwise you can ride for months without worrying about it.


OK, sounds reasonable.



laffeaux said:


> Without the sealant your tire will likely hold air when mounted and work fine until your first puncture. Once the first puncture occurs you'll need sealant. While you could carry a bit of sealant with you and install it after the first puncture, it seems like extra work for little gain. To install the sealant you'll need to remove the valve core and release all of the air in the tire, then you'll need to add the sealant trailside, reinstall the valve core, and re-inflate the tire. Alternatively, you can add sealant initially and not need to worry about any trailside repair in the near future and use a floor pump or compressor in the warmth of your home.


Sure, makes sense. That's what I was thinking, I just was trying to avoid the fuss of adding it right up front, and also the added weight of riding with it in the wheels. I haven't had a puncture in a long time, but then I've not been riding too hard core, either. However, this bike will no doubt make me extend myself.



laffeaux said:


> In either case (adding sealant now or later) carry a tube with you in case things go wrong and the tubeless fails. Some punctures do not seal immediately, and large sidewall rips will not seal (and often require a tire boot to get you home).


Ah, rats, so I have to carry a tube anyway... Well, for the local flow trails I think I'll risk it, as it's no more than a mile or so walk back to the car. For longer rides I'll carry a spare tube.

Good education for me, thanks all.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

tpd said:


> Ah, rats, so I have to carry a tube anyway... Well, for the local flow trails I think I'll risk it, as it's no more than a mile or so walk back to the car. For longer rides I'll carry a spare tube.


Yeah, if you're never more than a mile from "home" you don't need to carry a tube.

Where I ride I'm often a long long walk back to somewhere warm, and in the winter temps are often below freezing. I carry whatever it takes to make sure that I'm going to make it home without freezing to death.


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

laffeaux said:


> Yeah, if you're never more than a mile from "home" you don't need to carry a tube.
> 
> Where I ride I'm often a long long walk back to somewhere warm, and in the winter temps are often below freezing. I carry whatever it takes to make sure that I'm going to make it home without freezing to death.


Amen to that!


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

laffeaux said:


> Without the sealant your tire will likely hold air when mounted and work fine until your first puncture. Once the first puncture occurs you'll need sealant. While you could carry a bit of sealant with you and install it after the first puncture, it seems like extra work for little gain. *To install the sealant you'll need to remove the valve core and release all of the air in the tire, then you'll need to add the sealant trailside, reinstall the valve core, and re-inflate the tire. *Alternatively, you can add sealant initially and not need to worry about any trailside repair in the near future and use a floor pump or compressor in the warmth of your home.
> 
> In either case (adding sealant now or later) carry a tube with you in case things go wrong and the tubeless fails. Some punctures do not seal immediately, and large sidewall rips will not seal (and often require a tire boot to get you home).






 ))


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## SmooveP (Nov 30, 2007)

My tubeless story.
I'm new to tubeless, FWIW. Been riding for decades, and I resisted it for various reasons - too messy, confusing standards, laziness, etc.
I was getting a lot of flats running tubes in my fat bikes, so I decided to give it a try. My first try was on Marge Lites with 45 Nrth Escalator tires (which have been discontinued).
I used the Gorilla and foam tape method with mixed success. I got the tire to seat and hold air, but experienced some burping and the tire had to be pumped up before almost every ride.
I started looking for a true tubeless solution (tire + rim) and went with the Nextie 65mm rims, which are advertised as tubeless ready. I had the perfectly good pair of almost new Escalators, which are not tubeless ready, but I didn't feel like shelling out for a pair of Vanhelgas yet, so I mounted up the Escalators after doing a single wrap of 3M clear duct tape on the rims. 

The interior of the Nextie rims is well designed and helps guide the tire onto the bead seat of the rim easily with just a hand pump. However, the Escalators fit a bit loose, so getting them to seal took a bit of work. One of them sealed up right away, but the other was bleeding (Stan's) sealant at the rim like crazy even after letting it sit overnight. I decided to try Ozzybmx and Shark's tip of using latex mold builder to seal the bead and it worked great. Bought a jar at AC Moore and painted it onto the bead seats of the rim and mounted the tire up immediately. Pumped it up and I could tell right away that it was way better. I think this worked in my case because the tires were a bit loose and the bead area of the tires are kind of rough and irregular. Did a 12 mile ride on them yesterday without any burping, oozing or other issues. Fingers crossed for the long haul!


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

Murphy1976 said:


> ))


Murphy, that needle through the tire thing is interesting, but can it really have no ill effects on the tire?!

I was planning to follow this method:
http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires...-conversion-guide-floor-pump-only-937694.html


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

tpd said:


> Murphy, that needle through the tire thing is interesting, but can it really have no ill effects on the tire?!
> 
> I was planning to follow this method:
> http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires...-conversion-guide-floor-pump-only-937694.html


If this will not function, it means, you have bad sealant.


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## jan_nikolajsen (Oct 28, 2011)

deleted


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

TitanofChaos said:


> nope, the tire is toast, with a tube in it and the bead seated on one side, the other side is larger than the rim by almost 2"
> 
> I'll be contacting QBP today, they shouldn't explode like this when airing to labeled max pressure with a floor pump


That tire should have taken 30psi like a man. Get it replaced at no charge.... and make sure your gauge is accurate and you're not really pushing it much higher.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

TitanofChaos said:


> yeah... this didn't have a happy ending
> 
> I aired up to 30# and watched the bubbles slowly fizz all the way around the tire and then BANG!!!!! $170 worth of dillinger5 blew off the rim making me deaf and stretching the bead so badly that I can't even use it with a tube now





TitanofChaos said:


> nope, the tire is toast, with a tube in it and the bead seated on one side, the other side is larger than the rim by almost 2"
> 
> I'll be contacting QBP today, they shouldn't explode like this when airing to labeled max pressure with a floor pump


You did WHAT?!!? And you expect WHAT?!!!?



tjdog800 said:


> That tire should have taken 30psi like a man. Get it replaced at no charge.... and make sure your gauge is accurate and you're not really pushing it much higher.


What the WHAT?!!!?

Two words for both of you, and anyone else reading this: Personal responsibility.

*You chose* to use a rim that was NEVER designed to be run tubeless with a tire that was NEVER designed to be run tubeless. When the "system", cobbled as you admitted it was, failed, the fault is on whom?

I think I'm going to contact QBP too--to tell them about this thread so that they don't give you a red cent worth of credit.

I'm tempted to write "unbelievable" here, but the sad truth is that BS like this is becoming more and more common.

Sheesh.


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## efuss (Dec 15, 2011)

I run split tube + Stan's with Nates. Works like a champ for 3 years now. Make sure to add an ounce of sealant to your spare tube, there will be a bunch of crap(thorns, bits of wire, etc) in the tire that is sealed in place.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

Okay, so I'm going to try the split tube method on my Larry's and old Large Marge wheels. I tried the Gorilla tape method, and it kept having slow leaks. No place around me has 24" presta tubes with removable cores. I can still just dump the sealant into the tire before airing it up, right? I feel very confident that the tire will seat because it did with the Gorilla tape and was a beyatch to pop the bead back off.

Andy B.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mikesee said:


> *You chose* to use a rim that was NEVER designed to be run tubeless with a tire that was NEVER designed to be run tubeless.


Agree, but the D5s are just as "tubeless" as my other 4.8 fat tires that say "tubeless" on the sidewall. They both mount up just as tight and secure. I think the main issue is the rims, some of them are just way undersized for tubeless.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

andy b. said:


> I can still just dump the sealant into the tire before airing it up, right?


Yep. Maybe dump a little extra sealant in there just in case.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

Jayem said:


> Yep. Maybe dump a little extra sealant in there just in case.


Ok. Thanks!


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## efuss (Dec 15, 2011)

andy b. said:


> Okay, so I'm going to try the split tube method on my Larry's and old Large Marge wheels. I tried the Gorilla tape method, and it kept having slow leaks. No place around me has 24" presta tubes with removable cores. I can still just dump the sealant into the tire before airing it up, right? I feel very confident that the tire will seat because it did with the Gorilla tape and was a beyatch to pop the bead back off.
> 
> Andy B.


Drill your rims for schrader (21/64"), much easier to deal with. The original LM's have a great bead lock, set up split tube they are bombproof.


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## TitanofChaos (Jun 13, 2011)

mikesee said:


> Two words for both of you, and anyone else reading this: Personal responsibility.
> 
> *You chose* to use a rim that was NEVER designed to be run tubeless with a tire that was NEVER designed to be run tubeless. When the "system", cobbled as you admitted it was, failed, the fault is on whom?
> 
> ...


are you friggin serious?

setting up tubeless here is not the issue

the tire should be able to take it's labeled max PSI, if I was dumb enough to air it up to 40 or some nonsense I wouldn't bother contacting QBP nor post about it here, that would be my own stupid mistake

you've never had a tire refuse to seat the bead and pumped it up to max to see if it would pop into place?

I find that hard to believe


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

Labeled max psi is for use with a tube. 

Running tubeless changes that even with tubeless tires and rims, not to mention non-tubeless parts. I'm sorry to say that it's completely beyond any warranty claims. If I was handling such a case I would offer a big discount of a new tire to keep you happy, but not send a completely new tire free of charge.

If a tire refuses to mount tubeless, I drop it off the bead, add soapy water as a lubricant and retry at a reasonable pressure. If it still doesn't mount, I check to see if the BSD is too tight. I never go even close to the specified max pressure as written on the sidewall.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

TitanofChaos said:


> are you friggin serious?
> 
> setting up tubeless here is not the issue
> 
> ...


The max pressure listed on a non-tubeless tire means max pressure *with a tube installed*.

I'm still baffled that you think this was a good idea to begin with, much less think 45N is to blame.


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## TitanofChaos (Jun 13, 2011)

mikesee said:


> The max pressure listed on a non-tubeless tire means max pressure *with a tube installed*.
> 
> I'm still baffled that you think this was a good idea to begin with, much less think 45N is to blame.


I'm not trying to be a dick, and I'm not trying to deny anything, I just don't understand how 30PSI with or without a tube is any different, in either case air pressure is pushing the tire bead into the bead seat and against the rim wall

You're an excellent contributing member on here for these matters and I don't claim to be an expert on anything regarding tires, please explain the physics to me, I think it would be beneficial to anyone else reading the thread


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

Schwalbe lists 50 psi as max pressure for the 2.35" Nobby Nic and warns against exceeding 35 psi in tubeless applications - and these are just 29ers. For fat bikes the pressures are lower, but the principle is the same: safe pressure with a tube might not be safe tubeless. 

Without a tube air pressure in the tire gets into every nook and cranny and acts against any surface it meets. For a bead to stretch and slip off the hook you only need enough pressure to stretch the bead and that's it. A tube is a layer of rubber on the inside of the tire but also the rim: for the bead to rise and slip from the hook it must push the tube out of the way. At high pressures the tube adheres to the rim as if it was glued to it and there's substantial friction in between: the bead is far less likely to slip.

If you visualize what happens when the bead slips from the hook it should be clear: the bead moves up and towards the center of the rim. A tube resists this.


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## TitanofChaos (Jun 13, 2011)

I did not think about the air that's slipping between the bead shelf and the tire pushing it up and over the rim, obviously the tube cannot squeeze into that space and pushes the tire bead differently, more side to side than up and down

Thanks for the explanation


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## Saul Lumikko (Oct 23, 2012)

Good thing you mentioned air getting in between the rim and tire, because that would _reduce_ the friction between the two, something I overlooked. The slightest spot of leak would probably be the first part of the bead to go.

In any case I think it's primarily the tube that pushes the bead against the rim, which is why they withstand much higher pressures. I'm sorry you had to learn that the hard way. Back when I got started with tubeless hacking (non-UST) I received stern warnings about excessive pressure and the importance of lubrication.


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## SmooveP (Nov 30, 2007)

Given all the challenges of keeping big low pressure tires on the rim, why would a hookless bead shelf rim (like the Nexties for example) work better than a hooked design? 
Wouldn't a bead hook be more secure and make for a better tire-to-rim seal?


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

Saul Lumikko said:


> I received stern warnings about excessive pressure and the importance of lubrication.


:thumbsup:


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

SmooveP said:


> Given all the challenges of keeping big low pressure tires on the rim, why would a hookless bead shelf rim (like the Nexties for example) work better than a hooked design?
> Wouldn't a bead hook be more secure and make for a better tire-to-rim seal?


It's just a guess but I think some rims work better than others because they might be slightly larger in diameter where the tire bead seats which would make for a tighter seal and fit.

As far as the rim hook goes it only really seems to help if the tire has a bead that is shaped to fit inside the rim hook. If you look at the bead of a tire like the Dillinger you can see that the bead just sucks for going tubeless; it has ridges that make a poor seal and it doesn't have a lip to catch a rim hook:








On the other hand a tire like the Hodag or Vanhelga has a bead that's designed to fit within a rim hook:








It'd be neat if they would release a Dillinger with the bead of the Vanhelga.


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## SmooveP (Nov 30, 2007)

Aceldama said:


> It's just a guess but I think some rims work better than others because they might be slightly larger in diameter where the tire bead seats which would make for a tighter seal and fit.
> 
> As far as the rim hook goes it only really seems to help if the tire has a bead that is shaped to fit inside the rim hook. If you look at the bead of a tire like the Dillinger you can see that the bead just sucks for going tubeless; it has ridges that make a poor seal and it doesn't have a lip to catch a rim hook:
> View attachment 953864
> ...


From your picture and other stuff I've read, the 45 Nrth/Whisky tubeless system appears to use a hooked bead. But others (Nextie, Stan's Hugo, Bontrager Jackalope) appear to be hookless. This is a pic of of the Hugo cross section. The bead shelf of the Nextie rim looks similar. Naturally, I'd prefer to run a true tubeless ready tire, but it would be nice to know what, if any, tires are designed to work with the hookless style rims.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

Aceldama said:


> If you look at the bead of a tire like the Dillinger you can see that the bead just sucks for going tubeless; it has ridges that make a poor seal and it doesn't have a lip to catch a rim hook:
> View attachment 953864


I'm sure results will vary, but I've actually had good luck with with a Dillinger setup tubeless on a Rolling Daryl rim.

(Hopefully I didn't just jinx myself.)


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

laffeaux said:


> I'm sure results will vary, but I've actually had good luck with with a Dillinger setup tubeless on a Rolling Daryl rim.
> 
> (Hopefully I didn't just jinx myself.)


So I've gone tubeless with mine and I've had mixed results. I'm running a Dillinger 5 in the front and a Dillinger 4 in the rear on Bontrager Jackalope rims (which are supposedly tubeless ready).

The Dillinger 5 on the front was relatively easy to set up tubeless and has held air like a champ so far.

The Dillinger 4 on the rear was much harder to seat properly and was losing air around the bead when aired up over 12psi. Eventually I was able to get it to seat using soapy water and re-seating the bead multiple times. Unfortunately, it still loses air during high-effort climbing around the bead when riding at around 8psi.

I'm not sure entirely what the problem is with the D4 on my setup but I think it might be that the tire needs to be a bit tighter on the rim. The Bontrager Hodag tires are a LOT tighter on the rim than the Dillinger. I can either build up the bead seat with some tape or get Wayne Szalinski to shrink the tire diameter. I'm also going to try putting liquid latex directly on the bead.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

I know this is like Tubeless Thursday, but I wanted to say tonight I installed the split tubes with the Larrys and Large Marge rims and as half you guys have said, this is really the easiest method. The tires seated easily (one I had to wrap an old 26" tube around it, the other seated just with air from the compressor), and they seem to be holding steady for the past 3 or 4 hours. I'll see how they are tomorrow, but the split tube method looks like it works good. Hopefully I'll get a chance to try them out this weekend!

Thanks for all the advice!

Andy B.


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

A warning to those who want to go tubeless with the 45NRTH Dillinger 4; Mine blew off my rear rim while riding on the street on the way to my local trails today.

-Bontrager Jackalope rim
-45nrth Dillinger 4 tire
-12 psi measured before the ride (aired up at 60F, riding in 30F temperature) 

Luckily I wasn't going downhill or too far from home. The Dillinger wasn't intended to go tubeless and I definitely don't trust it anymore.


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## cycloxer13 (Oct 27, 2014)

I think the bead hook interferes unless it is a perfect match for the tire. A short, vertical wall is also very strong and simple to mold. I'm running Light-Bicycle 90's and Specialized Ground Controls and they seal like a champ, quite literally snapping into place once aired up. It is such a simple, effective design.


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## johnlh (Aug 16, 2008)

Glad you were not hurt! I wore out a set of Dillinger 4s running them tubeless on very loose fitting Turnagain fr80 rims set up with a split tube. I never had an issue, even running them at less than 5 psi most of the time on snow. I'm wondering if it had something to do with the profile of your rim, or something else with your set up. Were you using only the standard layer of tubeless tape? Could you have over inflated them during the initial set up?


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

johnlh said:


> Glad you were not hurt! I wore out a set of Dillinger 4s running them tubeless on very loose fitting Turnagain fr80 rims set up with a split tube. I never had an issue, even running them at less than 5 psi most of the time on snow. I'm wondering if it had something to do with the profile of your rim, or something else with your set up. Were you using only the standard layer of tubeless tape? Could you have over inflated them during the initial set up?


The Bontrager Jackalope rims come with a 1 inch wide roll of tape for the center channel and that's it for rim tape on these rims.

On the initial setup I used a compressor to get the front and rear tires started but had the regulator set below 30psi and never used it to fully inflate the tires, just to get the beads set so I could use my floor pump to finish them off.

I DID air both tires up to about 20psi with the floor pump and let them sit overnight before airing them down to riding pressure. I've been riding them all week and had the rear blow off today at 12psi.

My best guess is that my rear Dillinger's bead is on the large side and my rear wheel's seat diameter is on the small side of what's allowed in their respective tolerances.


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## kmpi68mtb (Dec 12, 2009)

*Minnesota 4.0 Tires > tubeless*

I was... pleased to see that picture posted of the Dillinger's bead by *Aceldama* I have not seen many Fat Tire beads posted.

While attempting to get my Framed Minnesota 2.0 tires set up - (using Split Tube method). - too sloppy on the rim. :skep:
The rear tire kept blowing off when trying to get them to seat - *FINALLY* I got the tire centered and caught on the bead by using a strap and pushing the tire up to the rim by hand.

The picture reminded me of my experience with the bead on the Framed Minnesota 4.0 Tires - The 80mm rims have a hook - and I am pretty sure that is all that is saving me on my setup. :eekster:

First Ride : I rode it for 20 miles of rocky trails - generally worrying if something was gonna give...All went well... *BUT* I am definitely in the market for some tires with a *better bead*. Cuz I love tubeless - too many thorns - bringing back some bad memories of flats galore back in the days before Tubeless & Sealant came along to MTB (and before I could afford tubeless setups.) 
Here is the sloppy gap and *THIN* ridged bead... :madman: No Fun


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

Just a quick update. My tires have been aired up and holding pressure for more than 24 hours now. I am happy. I'm going to try to go for a short ride on Sunday at under 10psi to see how it works. I'll report back if I get to go for a ride.

Andy B.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

*Carpet shield tubeless*

An update on my tubeless method with some weights included. Weinmann HL80's, Snowshoe 72 tpi.

I've been running this setup for about 2 weeks now with really good results. The only downside to the original setup was using a Stan's valve stem. I've since switched over to a 949 schrader valve that has more sealing surface and is more durable. Here's pics of the second time I've set this up.

This is what the rim profile looks like with two full wraps, overlapping by a few inches around the valve core hole.








And a side view.








989 Schrader valve installed with reinforcement Scott's tough tape around hole.








After the valve was installed, I went around the wheel and "relaxed" the tension across rim bed a little so that the carpet shield "tape" doesn't have to stretch as far. As this is really just wide tape, I went around the wheel and unstuck the tape from one side and moved it slightly inboard. On the initial setup, I cut the tape pretty close to the tire, so much so that I really couldn't see it, and after a few days, it did pull in just a little, but never fully retreated into the rim to the point that sealant could get under it. I'll trim it a little longer this time, and with the more relaxed tension, should work perfect. Note, I cut the tough tape to a width that will pull back inside the rim wall a little when the tire is inflated so as not to interfere with the seal. I didn't do this the first go around, but the stan's took care of it anyway.

Mounted the tire, added stan's through the valve, and aired up. Could have easily been done with a floor pump, but I used my pressure tank, with the valve core still installed in the schrader, and it took air immediately, beads popped into place (well, as well as they can on the HL80). 








Weights of various tubed and tubeless components I used various times on this tire rim combo setup;
Stan's Valve = 8 g
989 Racing Valve = 9 g
Original stock rim strip = 150 g
Original stock tube = 612 g
Split tube = 168 g
2+ wraps of carpet film with tough tape reinforcement = 21 g
Duct tape (not Gorrilla tape) and clear packing tape rim strip = 22 g
4 oz stan's = approx 120 g

Stock config of rim strip and tube = 762 g
Split tube, duct tape rim strip, foam and stan's = 350 g
Carpet shield, 989 valve, duct/packing tape rim strip, stan's = 172 g (1.3 lbs less than stock, per wheel)

Disclaimers: this will let you air up tubeless on an HL80 with just a floor pump, but only the first time, after that, like the foam, you're back to the really deep rim channel with super floppy tires - I could never get these to seat even using an industrial air compressor, bands, etc. without building up the central channel...other's have, not me.

While I have been riding this for a couple of weeks in the snow, at really low pressures, these WILL burp more than the split tube method, which is heavier, but from my experience all this fall and this winter until I switched to this, flawless. Split has superior low pressure performance. For higher dry trail pressures, this carpet shield method is crazy light, and I trust it. For this to be dependable, I think that a 989 schrader or similiar is necessary. I could torque on the stan's valve and get leakage, the 989's are bomber.

I think this is a practical, very lightweight hack for these rims. While I realize this might be lipstick on a pig (HL80 pig that is) it is a huge improvement over stock.

Anyway , hope this helps someone out. Happy trails - out riding.


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

I decided to go tubeless today, and so far it hasn't worked out. Tires will not hold air, but I have a caveat.

I have a Farley 8, and am using the stock Jackalope wheels and Hodag tires. I have used technique and materials described in this thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires...-conversion-guide-floor-pump-only-937694.html

In an experiment to see if I can get away without the liquid sealer, I mounted the tires up and as yet haven't put in the Stan's. The tires are pissing air out not only through the bead, but also all over the side walls.

As I was dismounting and mounting the tires, I noticed a series of lines on the sidewalls running diagonally from the bead out to the tread. They appear to be in the tire, so it's the weave or something. It's through these lines that air is escaping.

I don't want to put in Stan's only to have it fail, and then I also have to clean that mess out. Do you think the Stan's will seal these air bubbles? Or shall I just throw the tubes back in and forget about this whole exercise? (See pics of tires in a tub full of water.)


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## kmpi68mtb (Dec 12, 2009)

That is A LOT of air... have you thought about pre-sealing the inside of the tire with something first. Stan's may just run right through that tire. I have read some people have used something to pre seal... Those look awful thin though.


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

Well, those are the stock wheels and tires (Jackalopes and Hodags), which are advertised as tubless-ready. I _shouldn't_ have to pre-seal diddly. However, maybe in reality I do...

I also have read about people painting the bead with latex mold builder, or using duct-tape on the bead to give it some friction/compliance/build it up. I guess also the split-tubes thing might work here too. However, it's supposed to work out of the box like this I thought.

I'm kinda anxious about doing the Stan's thing and not having it work (even though it is supposed to) and then having to clean it out.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

kmpi68mtb said:


> ... have you thought about pre-sealing the inside of the tire with something first...


I've seen reports of pre-sealing with a thinned rubber cement or thinned Shoe Goo. 
Search.

If you're pissing air out through the bead, remember that sealant is not a solution to starting with a poor mechanical seal. This means more tape wrapped around the rim to increase its effective diameter to get a better mechanical seal.

What PSI are you inflating to? Is that with a gauge that is reasonably accurate in the PSI range for fat bike tires?


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

Well, I haven't done anything to the bead on the wheel -- I didn't think I had to. TLR, right?

Sure I can work on the bead some, but the tire carcass also looks like it's bubbling out all over the place (!).

I was inflating them to 20 psi, according to the gauge on my floor pump, which is the number I've seen used by other people. Lemme know if this is not a good number so go to. My very accurate Meiser gauge only goes to 15 so I can't use that.


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## cycloxer13 (Oct 27, 2014)

1.) Put sealant in the tire.
2.) Only inflate to as high as you intend to run the tires.
3.) It'll work. Have faith.


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## kmpi68mtb (Dec 12, 2009)

Maybe a pre treatment of mold builder might seal this tire up?
at least it may help keep the Stans from leaking through. (and Latex like Stan's)
If you were able to get them to 20 PSI that is awesome..you will never run them that high - should only need that to get them seated then MAX would be 15psi


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

cycloxer13 said:


> 1.) Put sealant in the tire.
> 2.) Only inflate to as high as you intend to run the tires.
> 3.) It'll work. Have faith.


OK, I'm gonna go for it!


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

kmpi68mtb said:


> Maybe a pre treatment of mold builder might seal this tire up?...


Is this something you've done or seen recommended by someone who has done that? Effectiveness? Longevity? Side effects?


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## cycloxer13 (Oct 27, 2014)

By filling the tires with air and no sealant to 20 psi, you are actually just stressing them out and weakening the sidewalls. It's not the right approach. The tire wants to be sealed. 20 is way to high. Even if the system is rated for that pressure, there is no point to testing it out unless you plan to use it with pressures that high. What is the maximum you will run your tires? 10 psi? 12 psi? Add a few more psi to that and it should be your maximum inflation pressure.

As an example, I never run my tires higher than 8 psi, so I only inflate them enough to get the beads to seat (around 10-12) and then I back off the pressure to let the sealant do its work.


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## kmpi68mtb (Dec 12, 2009)

I have only read that people have used it for making home brew sealant
Generally I was posting it as a question...as I have never used it...just an idea for a try.
It is latex so just like Stans and it would clean off easily if it did not hold air better.
I have not seen a tubeless ready tire leak That Much air.


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

OK, so I went for it with the Stan's, and dialed back the inflation pressure to 13 psi. Where I'd seen 20 used was people using that with the tube to seat / bed in the tape applied over the spoke holes. I guess I just stuck with that perhaps inappropriately.

I put in about 5 oz in the front, and 6 oz in the rear. If I have to add more I can't do it until Monday when I can get my valve core remover.

They seem to be holding, but it hasn't been long. I dunked one of the wheels and there was no bubbling from the bead, but still a few from those lines along the sidewall. Hmm...


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Rotating the wheel at various angles so the Stans coats all of the sides?


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

I made home sealant - latex with water. Just to preseal tires. I aired wheels up to 20 for night. Micropores were opened in that case and there was bigger chance for latex to fill them all into deep. (Stan's shake dance is obligatory.)
After one day I opened the valve and sucked all liquid out with injection and hose (made out of piece of isolation from some wire).
I use no additional sealant then, as my fat is intended to be only SNOWbike.


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## kmpi68mtb (Dec 12, 2009)

It will be interesting to see what Stans does Do that dance and set them on 5 gallon buckets for 15 each side- that will teach those holes Best of luck!


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## cycloxer13 (Oct 27, 2014)

You are good to go. Just rotate them around and try to slosh the sealant around all of the sidewall and beads on both sides. The sealant literally gets pushed into all of the air leaks and the latex solidifies and seals everything up. It works remarkably well. Once you get the system sealed, it tends to stay that way quite literally forever. You have to top off the sealant every few months and remove any clumps. 

Now, wait until you lower the pressure and take them for a ride - it's like a magic carpet!


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## cycloxer13 (Oct 27, 2014)

Murph - funny you say that because I have been telling many people you can get away with a lot less sealant than you think in these fat bike tires. I am running less than 100 grams of Orange Seal and every time I have popped the bead I still see a pool at the bottom of the tire. 

Personally I need a few ounces because I ride on snowmobile trails and fields that are trimmed with a field mower. It leaves sharp pungy-style sticks that concern me.

However, I believe that if you only used a bike on snow, once the system was sealed, you could remove any excess.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

cycloxer13 said:


> Murph - funny you say that because I have been telling many people you can get away with a lot less sealant than you think in these fat bike tires. I am running less than 100 grams of Orange Seal and every time I have popped the bead I still see a pool at the bottom of the tire.
> 
> Personally I need a few ounces because I ride on snowmobile trails and fields that are trimmed with a field mower. It leaves sharp pungy-style sticks that concern me.
> 
> However, I believe that if you only used a bike on snow, once the system was sealed, you could remove any excess.


I carry also spare tube. Sometimes there is not enough snow in some trails in woods.
This is my 5th season with snowbike and I had no defect till now. 3 years tubes on Pug, one year semi-tubeless [front] on my Snowdoor - Duratec and this year few kilometers on 2x tubeless.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

cycloxer13 said:


> By filling the tires with air and no sealant to 20 psi, you are actually just stressing them out and weakening the sidewalls. It's not the right approach. The tire wants to be sealed. 20 is way to high. Even if the system is rated for that pressure, there is no point to testing it out unless you plan to use it with pressures that high. What is the maximum you will run your tires? 10 psi? 12 psi? Add a few more psi to that and it should be your maximum inflation pressure.
> 
> As an example, I never run my tires higher than 8 psi, so I only inflate them enough to get the beads to seat (around 10-12) and then I back off the pressure to let the sealant do its work.


Ding, ding, ding... we have a winner!!


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

I have a 2015 Trek Superfly FS 9.7 with the TLR Bontrager wheels and TLR Bontrager tires. You still need the special rim strip to run them tubeless. Does the Jackalope also need the special rim strip? On the wheels on my Superfly the rim strip is shaped to follow the inner contours of the wheel and extends into the bead seating area to form a complete seal once the tire is seated.

As for the leaking sidewalls, I did a tubeless conversion on another bike with Stan's supplies and Forte Pisgah tires. Those babies bled air out of the sidewall like a mother. Once I filled them with Stan's and seated them, they stopped leaking overnight. I haven't had to put air in the tires in over a month, maybe close to two.


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

Now about 1 hour in, and holding at 13 psi. Not that I want to jinx myself, but they seem like it's working.

I did what I've read here as "the Stan's dance" and then flipped the wheels every few minutes. After maybe 15 mins of that I switched to flipping them every 15 mins or so.

Fingers crossed I'm in a good place.


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## cycloxer13 (Oct 27, 2014)

You'll be fine and 13 is still a lot of pressure for a fat bike tire. How much do you weigh?

I rode at 4.5 psi front and 5 psi rear today in the snow and I almost let more out!


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

cycloxer13 said:


> You'll be fine and 13 is still a lot of pressure for a fat bike tire. How much do you weigh?
> 
> I rode at 4.5 psi front and 5 psi rear today in the snow and I almost let more out!


I weigh about 210 lbs. I'm new to this whole fat bike thing, but have been riding at about 10 psi on solid, and hard-packed trails. It seems I'll lose about 2.5 psi from cooling, I figure starting about 12-13 seems like I'll end up in the 8-10 psi range when out in the cold. I had one ride at 7 psi in mud, and it was pretty good, but felt it could have used more.

I used this chart to come up with my numbers:
Tire Pressure and the Cold: Bontrager?s PSI Conversion Chart Will Keep You Inflated This Winter


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## cycloxer13 (Oct 27, 2014)

Okay perfect. 13 is fine then. Even if it bleeds down a little overnight, don't panic. If you wake up and your tire is flat, it's okay to panic. It can take even a couple of days to get every last little leak sealed, but what you'll find is that eventually everything settles down and you get a sealed system that requires minimal adjustment day to day and ride to ride.

That being said, I always check my psi before every ride with a 0-15 gauge. Why? Well temperatures and conditions change so much in the winter and small adjustments really affect your ride quality. I adjust what I think I want for the ride and conditions, err on the high side, and then I let out a little on the trail if necessary.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

I went out for a real ride today, not just a short one to check the tubeless conversion (split tubes, old Large Marge rims, Larry 3.8 tires). I had the pressure LOW! I don't have a low pressure gauge, but the normal gauge on my floor pump didn't even register ANY pressure. I bet I was around 3 psi. Anyway, I had some sealant leakage along the rim, but there didn't really seem to be any loss in pressure, so I figure I'm good. I will say, it climbed over everything. I had zero wheel spin even on icy areas.

Andy B.


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## cycloxer13 (Oct 27, 2014)

Tubeless is your friend. Ran 3.75# front and 5# rear today. Start temp was 9 degrees. How sweet it is - no problems.


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

So my tubeless experiment from yesterday hasn't been a complete success, but I was able to ride. I lost about 2 psi in each tire overnight (started at 13). By the time I got the bike to the trail the cold had lowered them to 9.5, and I rode them at that pressure for about 100 m until I realised I had poor traction. I lowered them to about 5 psi. And enjoyed that, but about 3/4 mile out I lost pressure in the rear. There was about 1 psi, so I wasn't quite riding the rim, but it felt like it.

I went back to the car, aired the tire back up to 6.5, then rode out again. Same thing, about 3/4 mile it lost pressure. Not so bad this time, it dropped to 2.5 and I rode it back pretty happily. Both times it seemed to happen abruptly. The front behaved itself.

I don't know if I lowered them too much, or if I shouldn't have ridden bumpy terrain on the first ride out. In a day or two I'll go for an easy ride about the 'hood and see if that helps things.


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

Keep riding them and airing them up to see if it goes away. Is it happening on climbs?

If it keeps happening get your pitchfork and call your LBS and make a stink. There is another rider on MTBR with the jackalope/hodag setup who had an issue where the rear tire would lose pressure on climbs. I also had the same problem but with a Dillinger tire (not tubeless ready).


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

Aceldama said:


> Keep riding them and airing them up to see if it goes away. Is it happening on climbs?
> 
> If it keeps happening get your pitchfork and call your LBS and make a stink. There is another rider on MTBR with the jackalope/hodag setup who had an issue where the rear tire would lose pressure on climbs. I also had the same problem but with a Dillinger tire (not tubeless ready).


Yep, both times happened in about the same area, near as I can tell, in a section where I was climbing.


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## cycloxer13 (Oct 27, 2014)

Maybe too low for your weight - tire could be burping/slipping.


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

cycloxer13 said:


> Maybe too low for your weight - tire could be burping/slipping.


I didn't hear anything suspicious (not that I think I should), just saying there nothing explosive.

I did have some trouble getting traction on some of the uphills, but I'm not a very skilled rider so it's easy to imagine that's my fault more than the tires. However, it sounds like I shouldn't go any lower on the pressure.

Given I'm about 210 lbs, what's a guess as to the lowest safe pressure I could run?


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## cycloxer13 (Oct 27, 2014)

5 or 6? Maybe, I am not a good person to ask. I weigh 142# and ran 3.75# front and 5# rear today in low-med depth snow. There is a point where lowering pressure affords diminishing returns.


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

andy b. said:


> I went out for a real ride today, not just a short one to check the tubeless conversion (split tubes, old Large Marge rims, Larry 3.8 tires). I had the pressure LOW! I don't have a low pressure gauge, but the normal *gauge on my floor pump didn't even register ANY pressure*. I bet I was around 3 psi. Anyway, I had some sealant leakage along the rim, *but there didn't really seem to be any loss in pressure*, so I figure I'm good. I will say, it climbed over everything. I had zero wheel spin even on icy areas.
> 
> Andy B.


You cannot lose what you don't have. 8-D


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Make sure your valve cores aren't loose. Mine were initially and I lost some pressure due to that.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

Murphy1976 said:


> You cannot lose what you don't have. 8-D


The same could be said for my mind! 

Seriously though, when I started the ride the pressure was already that low. I'm guessing if I had even lost 1 psi the tire would have been basically flat. I was surprised how low I could run it and not have the tire slipping on the rim or popping the bead. I am definitely a tubeless believer!

Andy B.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

mikesee said:


> ...I think I'm going to contact QBP too--to tell them about this thread so that they don't give you a red cent worth of credit....


LOL, why be such an arse? You've become so full of yourself, very sad....


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

pursuiter said:


> LOL, why be such an arse? You've become so full of yourself, very sad....


?

How is this about me?

Most of the people that post here complain that fat tire prices are too high.

When someone stands up says "No, this is wrong" to an act that can only serve to keep raising those prices, your response is name calling and an attempted insult?


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Saul Lumikko said:


> ... Schwalbe AV-10D tube split. Tube weight around 260 grams (claimed)...


Horrible time trying to find AV-10D in Canada. Only source I can find they're $22.50 CAD each, plus tax, plus shipping.

Anyone know the nominal thickness of the AV-10D?

LBS got me some _Axiom Freeride 1.2 24x2.4-2.75_ (160455-03) to try:
1.2mm thick (claimed)
67mm wide when folded, so I should see 134mm wide when split
one is 350g, the other 349g
Schrader valve, but *NOT threaded all the way down the stem*. 
O.K. for my use, as I'm going to use the 949 anodized aluminum Schrader valves
http://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/tubeless-tuesday-827178-22.html#post11666769
No idea on their material quality. But the valve seems to be very well mounted.


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## Espen W (Feb 4, 2012)

Canoe said:


> Horrible time trying to find AV-10D in Canada. Only source I can find they're $22.50 CAD each, plus tax, plus shipping.
> 
> Anyone know the nominal thickness of the AV-10D?
> 
> ...





Thanks for the info!
That is 700g of inner tube. 6 loops of plastic wrap weighs around 30g, and two tubeless valves around 10g, so that is around 630g (1.4lbs) of rotating weight off the bike when using plastic wrap instead of split tube.
The wrap seals so well that I'm running the Jumbo Jim 4.8 Liteskin tubeless without any Stan's goo at all, saving further weight.
In addition, the wrap is much thinner than the 1.2mm tube, so you lose less effective rim width. 
If we assume that the split tube does not stretch, it will push the tire beads 2.4mm inboards. In addition, they will add some effective rim sidewall height, further reducing effective tire width.

By stretching the plastic wrap on the rim, one creates a shape that makes inflation super easy, even with a micro pump.
Look a few pages back for a picture (posted by another user of this method) that illstrates this well.

What I have done is this: 5 loops of plastic wrap secured with a strip of tape at the very end and a strip of tape where I mount the valve stem. I then add a ''disposable'' last layer of wrap that is not secured by tape. It is just there to make inflation super easy.
If I want to change the tire, I just remove the upper layer and stretch a new one on that provides the self sealing shape aginst the tire. Pump it up with a hand pump and off I go.

Tip: before the wrap is installed, put a piece of tape over any sharp edges, like the seam of the rim, etc.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

I finally got down to pick the shipment up.


Canoe said:


> There are what various posters have recommended.
> 
> 
> Canoe said:
> ...


To show the appearance of all three available colours:


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## Murphy1976 (Jan 12, 2010)

So I went back to semi-tubeless today during the ride. Front tubeless, rear tubed.
1) frame rub during steep climb.
2) massive leaking between rim and tire during not so steep climb on very low pressure. Lou on Clown Shoe - the rim was cca 1 inch over the surface. (Can anybody guess what was the pressure?)

I ran without sealant, but the waves were too big to be easily filled up with only milk. As for the sssssssssssssssssssssssssst sound there must be in this case 1 mm space. I ran flat during 100 meters. 8-(

After mounting spare tube, frame rub disappeared also.


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## wardo78 (Apr 22, 2005)

I am sure this is referenced above, but a quick scan of multiple pages yielded nada. How many scoops of Stan's are you using?

Thanks,
Wardo


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## SmooveP (Nov 30, 2007)

wardo78 said:


> I am sure this is referenced above, but a quick scan of multiple pages yielded nada. How many scoops of Stan's are you using?
> 
> Thanks,
> Wardo


4-6 oz. seems to be the consensus. Sometimes new tires will absorb a lot of sealant and some will ooze an ounce or two while setting them up. I know of no easy way to tell how much is in the tire after setup, so I went with close to 6 oz. per tire.


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## rooze (Oct 22, 2014)




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## cycloxer13 (Oct 27, 2014)

Once your system is sealed, you can get away with 3-4 ounces. You definitely don't need more than 6 oz.


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

*Dillinger 4 120 tpi studded vs Darryl.*

I just picked up a set of D4 120tpi studded. I was thinking about going tubeless but before buying anything I mounted the tire with a tube to check the interface. The first thing that happened after pumping it to 10 PSI I noticed a section of bead hanging outside of the rim. Right away Im thinking tubeless is not going to go over well. I lowered the pressure and popped it back in made sure tire was even all around and aired it back up to 10 PSI I let it sit for a good hour. Now for the moment of truth, deflating the tire and see how well it stays in the bead (my darryls have a tiny ridge that keeps the bead from falling in) to no surprise the bead practically fell in with only mouse clicking pressure. In comparison the 27 tpi nates that came with the bike took a bit of effort to pop out of the bead.

That is when I decided to research the forum and found these posts. I notice D4 is available in 27 TPI as well and am wondering if anyone here has run them (laffeaux) with good results.

It is clear however that if I even think about running them tubeless I am going to have to dramatically build up the rim bead seat diameter. I figure enough gorrilla tape would do the trick, I have not found much on the split tube but it sounds like an option except for the part about it pushing the bead inward effectively pushing it past the tiny ridge on my Darryls which by the way I've just drilled 1.5" holes in them which may be a factor in going tubless?

Can any of YOU people  speak further into your setups and what TPI etc. Thanks! and thanks for reading my epic post!

Note: these will be used for racing, so in the meantime I am using a tube until if ever I find a reliable tubeless system.

Side Note: these things sound amazing and have a that responsive echo when you plunk them, even with the tube!



Aceldama said:


> So I've gone tubeless with mine and I've had mixed results. I'm running a Dillinger 5 in the front and a Dillinger 4 in the rear on Bontrager Jackalope rims (which are supposedly tubeless ready).
> 
> The Dillinger 5 on the front was relatively easy to set up tubeless and has held air like a champ so far.
> 
> ...





laffeaux said:


> I'm sure results will vary, but I've actually had good luck with with a Dillinger setup tubeless on a Rolling Daryl rim.
> 
> (Hopefully I didn't just jinx myself.)





Aceldama said:


> A warning to those who want to go tubeless with the 45NRTH Dillinger 4; Mine blew off my rear rim while riding on the street on the way to my local trails today.
> 
> -Bontrager Jackalope rim
> -45nrth Dillinger 4 tire
> ...





johnlh said:


> Glad you were not hurt! I wore out a set of Dillinger 4s running them tubeless on very loose fitting Turnagain fr80 rims set up with a split tube. I never had an issue, even running them at less than 5 psi most of the time on snow. I'm wondering if it had something to do with the profile of your rim, or something else with your set up. Were you using only the standard layer of tubeless tape? Could you have over inflated them during the initial set up?


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## tjdog800 (Aug 3, 2012)

I have two fatties that run tubeless year-round; one with HuDu on Holy Rolling Darryls and the other with Escalators on Marge Lites. I just changed them over to "winter tires"; Nates on the Darryls and a Bud/Lou on the the Marge Lites. Stans in both sets. (all lightweight 120tpi I think)

I've (re)used a split tube setup and had to actually peel the split tube off the tire bead on both sets after pushing the beads off the rims. It's a real tight interface on those Surly rims and the Stans does a great job of keeping things together.

The Nates were set up tubeless last year and I had no issues with them.
The Bud mounted right up with no issues. However, the Lou was difficult to get to mount to the bead-lock and then has been weeping Stans through the sidewalls the first couple rides (bead interface is good). I think it has finally finished sealing as I did not have to add air during my last ride. 

I don't think reusing the split tubes is optimal. I'll be replacing them when I go back to the summer setup.


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## eastman115 (Dec 6, 2009)

@espen - if I understand your method correctly wouldn't I only have to put on the "disposable" layer the second and subsequent times I used this set up? The first time I stretch on the plastic wrap won't it provide the seal I am looking for? It is only after inflation that the original 5 layers of plastic wrap will be pushed down into the rim, yes?


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

Nick Bain said:


> Can any of YOU people  speak further into your setups and what TPI etc. Thanks! and thanks for reading my epic post!


Here's an epic post right back at you.

I've got an update on my setup: For the record I'm using Bontrager Jackalope TLR wheels and 120 tpi Dillinger 5/4 studded tires.

As you pointed out from my previous post I had the D4 on the rear blow off while riding. I hate giving up on an idea so I did more research and sent an e-mail to Trek (I didn't tell them what tires I was using). They told me to use tape on the rim at the bead seat, they said this helps in really cold temps with aluminum rims. My LBS tech recommended I try the same thing so I decided to give it a shot.

I picked up a roll of Gorilla Clear Repair tape and used a razor to cut it into .75 inch wide strips. I put two wraps of tape on each bead shelf of the wheels.

At that point I mounted up the tires like I had before and it's been working without any sealant leaks around the bead and without any burping or air loss.

Here's a writeup of the mounting procedure that works for me. This assumes you already have the rim taped up and valves installed:

 Put the tire fully on the rim and try to keep it as even as possible
 Remove the valve core from the valve
 Use an air compressor and a rubber tipped blow gun to blow a large volume of air into the tire. The tire beads should pop into place.
 Use an injector to put sealant into tire through the valve. Use more on a fresh tire because it's going to absorb some. I'd probably use 4-6oz on a fresh tire.
 re-install valve core and try to inflate the tire to riding pressure
 shake the tire around to get sealant onto the sidewalls

Here are some tips that I've learned throughout this process:

If the tire is burping air while riding or you have sealant bubbling at the bead and running down the sidewalls this is a warning sign. The tire isn't seated correctly and it might blow off.
sealant is slick enough; I won't use soap and water again on the bead because I don't think it helps.
Don't over-inflate the tires while trying to get them to set up. I wouldn't go over 15 psi. They can stretch and if they blow off you can ruin the tire and your ears.
Inspect your setup while riding until you're sure it's not losing air or leaking around the bead. You don't want to go into a rock garden with 3psi in your tire by mistake.

Have fun with it but try to be careful. These tires aren't designed to be tubeless and they fit pretty loosely.


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## Espen W (Feb 4, 2012)

eastman115 said:


> @espen - if I understand your method correctly wouldn't I only have to put on the "disposable" layer the second and subsequent times I used this set up? The first time I stretch on the plastic wrap won't it provide the seal I am looking for? It is only after inflation that the original 5 layers of plastic wrap will be pushed down into the rim, yes?


That is correct. You only need to apply the ''disposable'' layer if you change tires, in order to renew the ''stretch and seal'' effect.
With regular cling wrap, I would do 6 or perhaps 7 base layers.
We use a more durable type of plastic wrap that is used for wrapping cardboard boxes together for shipping, etc. I use 6 layers of that type. That type is approx 5 grams per layer, regular cling wrap somewhat less,


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

andy b. said:


> I went out for a real ride today, not just a short one to check the tubeless conversion (split tubes, old Large Marge rims, Larry 3.8 tires). I had the pressure LOW! I don't have a low pressure gauge, but the normal gauge on my floor pump didn't even register ANY pressure. I bet I was around 3 psi. Anyway, I had some sealant leakage along the rim, but there didn't really seem to be any loss in pressure, so I figure I'm good. I will say, it climbed over everything. I had zero wheel spin even on icy areas.
> 
> Andy B.


I know, it's not proper to reply to your own post with a quote, but anyway, I just wanted to give an update. I was out for a 10 mile ride yesterday with the tubeless conversion, and all is well! No burps or leaks, and I was running around 3-5psi again. I consider the conversion a complete success at this point and am glad I did it.


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## cycloxer13 (Oct 27, 2014)

fyi - 3 psi today on LB's with GC tubeless - out for almost 4 hours, 23 miles, didn't lose anything, standard orange seal (good stuff).


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## nbwallace (Oct 8, 2007)

Has anyone tried to use split tube like the old Stan's rim strips? By that I mean trim the split tube to the inside of the sidewall. I think the theory behind this is to make a shelf to hold the bead against the bead hook.


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## celdred1 (May 3, 2007)

I have not...but I can tell you that when I do finally have to break down the wheel for the first time I will basically be trying that with how short I trimmed back the excess tube from my split tube application. I don't see why it wouldn't work as the 24" tube stretches on there just about like the old Stans rim strips did. 
I would think it would just be a matter of actually having the Stan's sealant blead out around the bead a bit and do it's job rather than basically being able to air them up bone dry with the split tube hanging out. 
I'll try to remember to post back on here if I ever burp mine and find myself giving this a try.


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## nbwallace (Oct 8, 2007)

I think I have an extra 24" tube or two. I'll probably give it a shot when my Vinson arrives. I've got a used set of HuDus, which look like they have Stan's residue in them.


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## celdred1 (May 3, 2007)

Might as well. If it were me, I'd split the tube and leave it hanging out and trim back with razor blade after tires are mounted. Only because we know that works. Then, if/when you ever breakdown the tires you can always give your homemade rim strip idea a go... Good luck!


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

*Coroplast rim bed FAIL.*

Initially, this was working great, but pressure and time cratered this process. The coroplast was just as flattened as 2 month old sill foam. The first couple times I got in to add a little more homebrew sealant, it was like new. The last time I checked on it, totally compressed. Waste of time and added rotational weight. Oh well, live and learn, back to foam.

This is a rim profile which I was able to build up on a Weinman HL80 rim. Coroplast is the lightweight plastic cardboard stuff political signs are made out of. 
View attachment 950522


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## slowride454 (Jan 11, 2014)

another thing to consider for those still on the fence about going tubeless, is the wear at the tire/tube interface. When running low pressures you can hear it. I've only had my fatbike for about 2 months and 150 miles of mild commuter riding. I just changed tires and I could see significant visual wear on the tubes and a fair about of rubber dust inside the tire. Gorilla tape has been installed and I put the tubes back in to stretch everything out, but I also added a bunch of pure cornstarch baby powder to keep everything lubed until I get valve stems.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

watermonkey said:


> Initially, this was working great, but pressure and time cratered this process. The coroplast was just as flattened as 2 month old sill foam. The first couple times I got in to add a little more homebrew sealant, it was like new. The last time I checked on it, totally compressed. Waste of time and added rotational weight. Oh well, live and learn, back to foam...


I was also going to try the Coroplast, so thanks for reporting back and saving me that effort! :thumbsup:

If I'm understanding the foam's function properly, it is to hold the bead up close to the seat of the rim so the bead-to-seat seals easily when you first inflate it?
Any other purpose/function?


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Canoe said:


> I was also going to try the Coroplast, so thanks for reporting back and saving me that effort! :thumbsup:
> 
> If I'm understanding the foam's function properly, it is to hold the bead up close to the seat of the rim so the bead-to-seat seals easily when you first inflate it?
> Any other purpose/function?


Not that I know of. 2-3 wraps of sill foam are as flat as paper after one ride, so it serves no other purpose than to help seat the bead. I guess it could act as an added barrier between the rim strip and some pokey object jamming through a cutout (I think I've heard of this happening). I think I'll use the leftover coroplast for some ******* mudshovels, or a bong.


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## MichaelHumpal (Sep 12, 2012)

I used gorilla tape and orange seal (roughly 4 scoops per tire) on my hed's first go around. Zero issues from 3-8 psi. After almost 3 months decided it was time to rotate tires as the rear was showing some wear, pulled off gorilla tape and as some others have noted it does look to soak up sealant. Ive now switched to orange seal 75mm rim tape single wrap and 2.5 scoops of sealant, still no issues and 1/4lb lighter.


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

I had my bike out for a ride Sunday, and ended up losing all air pressure in my rear, again. This is the third time in a row now. I have a Trek Farley 8 with stock wheels and tires (Jackalopes and Hodags) that I've converted to tubeless.

There was a spell where I didn't ride for probably 2 weeks, and I monitored the pressure in the tires while the bike was sitting in my basement. They dropped from say 12 psi down to about 8.5 in 2-ish weeks. Not catastrophic, but not preferred. However, I'd be OK with topping up my tires each time I rode just so long as they didn't actually blow out.

I started the ride with the tires at 12 as I had to ride about a half mile to the park. For giggle I tried riding in the snow with them at that and it was OK on the flat but had poor traction uphill, no real surprise. So I dropped them to about 8 psi. Which was great on 4" or less of fluffy snow.

But when I got to about 6" of fresh or more, I was stalled. Like this:









The snow was deep enough to hold the bike up for me for the photo. I dropped the rear tire to perhaps 4 psi to see if that helped, and tried clawing my way through it -- but wasn't making much progress for massive effort. About a 1/4 mile later I realised I had lost rear pressure and was riding on the rim. Bummer. I guess I can't go that low while trying to over-torque the tire/wheel interface.

I need to start carrying a pump with me, even for rides in my 'hood.

Toby.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm attempting a tubeless conversion with a Dillinger 5 on a Holey Rolling Darryl rim using the split-tube method, and I'm having no luck. I aired the tire up with a tube to get it somewhat into shape to fit, but the sidewalls are so loose that they just slide into the center of the rim and aren't even close to seating. I really didn't want to stick any foam in there if I can avoid it in any way. I just wanted to go with the split tube. I see a few guys did it and was wondering what the trick was?

The split tube method on my Larrys on the Large Marge rims worked perfectly! Just tubes (and rim tape over the nipple holes), and nothing else.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

What are you wrapping the tire with (old tube, cargo ratchet strap, etc) to get the tire to spread so the beads end up against the seat?


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

Canoe said:


> What are you wrapping the tire with (old tube, cargo ratchet strap, etc) to get the tire to spread so the beads end up against the seat?


I tried using an old tube, but the D5 seems so loose, it almost starts to fall off the rim where it gets squashed down. I think I'll try a ratchet strap and see what happens. I have some big 2" wide ones rated for 10,000 lbs I can use. :lol: Mainly because they are very wide and should apply even pressure, NOT because I plan on cranking them down for 10,000 lbs!

Other people have done it, so I MUST accomplish my goal!!!


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## Johanneson (May 24, 2012)

andy b. said:


> I'm attempting a tubeless conversion with a Dillinger 5 on a Holey Rolling Darryl rim using the split-tube method, and I'm having no luck. I aired the tire up with a tube to get it somewhat into shape to fit, but the sidewalls are so loose that they just slide into the center of the rim and aren't even close to seating. I really didn't want to stick any foam in there if I can avoid it in any way. I just wanted to go with the split tube. I see a few guys did it and was wondering what the trick was?
> 
> The split tube method on my Larrys on the Large Marge rims worked perfectly! Just tubes (and rim tape over the nipple holes), and nothing else.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## ChrisInYpsi (Apr 15, 2012)

andy b. said:


> I'm attempting a tubeless conversion with a Dillinger 5 on a Holey Rolling Darryl rim using the split-tube method, and I'm having no luck. I aired the tire up with a tube to get it somewhat into shape to fit, but the sidewalls are so loose that they just slide into the center of the rim and aren't even close to seating. I really didn't want to stick any foam in there if I can avoid it in any way. I just wanted to go with the split tube. I see a few guys did it and was wondering what the trick was?





Canoe said:


> What are you wrapping the tire with (old tube, cargo ratchet strap, etc) to get the tire to spread so the beads end up against the seat?


I used a piece of light duty rope around the center of the tire. Twisted a screwdriver through the rope to compress the tire onto the bead seats. Same concept as the ratchet strap, but I had rope handy.

I did this with my D4s and D5s on HRDs with split tubes. Also did this with HuDus with HRDs on my prior bike. Works great. Foam schmoam.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

Okay, I'll try the ratchet strap tomorrow and report back my results.


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## evandy (Oct 3, 2012)

Just a heads up, that I tried a ratchet strap with my D5/HRD and D4/ML setups, and had no joy. I'm guessing the micro differences of your specific bead and rim make a difference.

Good luck.


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

Johanneson said:


> Tpd,
> I've had good luck with lo psi tubeless by just wrapping the wheel bead with tape, duct or gorilla to provide a better seal and tighten thing up. Haven't had to bother with tubeless ready wheels and tires but have done this with any other tire/wheel combo where one or the other was not meant to be tubeless. Don't skimp on stans and ride it around a while before going low.


I followed the method here http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires...-conversion-guide-floor-pump-only-937694.html except for the step where he puts the Stan's in through the valve stem. I just popped the tire off the bead and dropped it in that way. Had zero trouble getting the tire bead to seat again. I used the same 3M tape (except it was the blue version instead of opaque white).

Front tire has had no issues, but the weight balance and the fact it's not forced to transmit power might have something to do with it.

I kinda wonder if these bikes need something like a bead locker (like as used on dirt bikes...).


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

tpd said:


> I kinda wonder if these bikes need something like a bead locker (like as used on dirt bikes...).


Yup, something that will hook the bead and keep it there, an adhesive or ???

That's why I don't ride fat tubeless, not because it's too hard to get it inflated in my garage, but because it's too hard walking home in the snow 

I run Q Tubes with a couple scoops of sealant to prtect against small punctures. Works fine, no that much heavier than tubeless.

So, are there any rims hat have a "double hook", that grips the bead from two sides.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

No luck on the ratchet straps and Dillinger5 on Rolling Darryl rims. I fudged around with the damn thing for an hour and just put a tube back in. I guess my rim is on the small end of tolerances and the tire is on the large end, because the tire almost falls off the rim, in fact even as I'm trying to put the normal tube in, I have to keep remounting the tire because it falls off the rim. This is a brand new D5 tire, and I have never inflated it past 20psi and I have never blown it off a rim or anything.


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

tpd said:


> I had my bike out for a ride Sunday, and ended up losing all air pressure in my rear, again. This is the third time in a row now. I have a Trek Farley 8 with stock wheels and tires (Jackalopes and Hodags) that I've converted to tubeless.
> 
> There was a spell where I didn't ride for probably 2 weeks, and I monitored the pressure in the tires while the bike was sitting in my basement. They dropped from say 12 psi down to about 8.5 in 2-ish weeks. Not catastrophic, but not preferred. However, I'd be OK with topping up my tires each time I rode just so long as they didn't actually blow out.
> 
> ...


I've contacted Trek about this issue and they told me to put a few wraps of tape on the rim where the bead seats.

From Trek:
"Thank you for contacting Trek Bicycle

Note that this is*not*needed for all of the Jackalope wheels; only in certain instances like extreme cold

We do not have any documentation, but you would just apply 2 layers of the gorilla tape (17mil thick/ 1" wide) on each side of the rim strip where the bead and rim would meet"

I tried this using Gorilla Clear Repair tape and it worked with my Dillinger tires on Jackalope wheels.


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

Also, contact Trek or your LBS about it to let them know. I think it's a bigger issue than Trek is admitting.


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## Johanneson (May 24, 2012)

tpd said:


> I followed the method here http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires...-conversion-guide-floor-pump-only-937694.html except for the step where he puts the Stan's in through the valve stem. I just popped the tire off the bead and dropped it in that way. Had zero trouble getting the tire bead to seat again. I used the same 3M tape (except it was the blue version instead of opaque white).
> 
> Front tire has had no issues, but the weight balance and the fact it's not forced to transmit power might have something to do with it.
> 
> I kinda wonder if these bikes need something like a bead locker (like as used on dirt bikes...).


That's what tape in the bead will take care of...


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Do the Trek rims have a UST style beadseat? 

I passed on a pair of Turnagain rims at a loss leader discount at Twenty2 Cycles due to the beadseat being traditional rather than UST style 'cause there is nothing to keep the tire seated especially at snow riding pressure.
No amount of tape will replace a UST beadseat...Just sayin'


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

Aceldama said:


> I've contacted Trek about this issue and they told me to put a few wraps of tape on the rim where the bead seats.
> 
> From Trek:
> "Thank you for contacting Trek Bicycle
> ...


Interesting! Can someone perhaps sketch where the tape goes, or take a photo of what they did? I'm thinking it means lay tape down along the interior sidewall of the rim, but then isn't the tape going to make the surface more slick? I'd think that would make the tire more prone to popping off, not less.

Also, isn't the tape going to kink because you're essentially trying to make it turn a 13" radius corner all the way around the rim?


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

tpd said:


> Interesting! Can someone perhaps sketch where the tape goes, or take a photo of what they did? I'm thinking it means lay tape down along the interior sidewall of the rim, but then isn't the tape going to make the surface more slick? I'd think that would make the tire more prone to popping off, not less.
> 
> Also, isn't the tape going to kink because you're essentially trying to make it turn a 13" radius corner all the way around the rim?


Unfortunately I didn't take photos of the process but it's pretty simple.

If you can find 1 inch wide tape that would be the easiest route. I took a roll of Gorilla Clear Repair tape and used a razor to cut it into 1 inch wide strips.

You just want to wrap around the rim twice where the tire bead sits on the rim. This effectively makes the diameter of the rim larger which makes the tire fit more tightly on the rim.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

Conquered it! I got the Dillinger5 tire to mount on the Rolling Darryl rim with a single wrap of 1/4" blue foam under the split tube. It was p!$$ing me off all day that I couldn't get it to mount, and I figured I'd give it one more shot tonight. I'll admit it, I didn't want to add the foam because I was thinking it would add some weight, well the piece I used was about 2" wide and about 68" long and I bet it weighs a few grams. I couldn't even tell I was holding the piece, it was so light. A little snow on the rim will weigh 100 times what the foam weighs.

My Nate rear tire should be here Friday, and I hope it mounts up without the foam, but if I need it, at least I know it doesn't really add any weight of any concern.


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## DeepVI (May 9, 2011)

This is my tubeless set up, set up. 3/16ID by 5/16OD fuel line. Syringe from a feed store. Makes seating tires and adding/topping off sealant a breeze. Total cost, maybe $5.


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## javelina1 (Mar 10, 2005)

Wow. Love this thread. I'm seriously considering going tubeless now. I have an unused Stan's Tubeless System, sitting right here next to me. I just recently purchased a Framed Alaskan, with the Vee Bulldozers. At the least the Bulldozers are tubeless ready. 

Not sure if I can use the Stan's Rim Strip & Valve, probably not wide enough to cover the open holes on the rim itself.

So go the Gorilla tape route? And just "cut out" the Stan's valves from the Rim Strip to use?

TIA,
-Jav


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

andy b. said:


> Conquered it! I got the Dillinger5 tire to mount on the Rolling Darryl rim with a single wrap of 1/4" blue foam under the split tube. It was p!$$ing me off all day that I couldn't get it to mount, and I figured I'd give it one more shot tonight. I'll admit it, I didn't want to add the foam because I was thinking it would add some weight, well the piece I used was about 2" wide and about 68" long and I bet it weighs a few grams. I couldn't even tell I was holding the piece, it was so light. A little snow on the rim will weigh 100 times what the foam weighs.
> 
> My Nate rear tire should be here Friday, and I hope it mounts up without the foam, but if I need it, at least I know it doesn't really add any weight of any concern.


Andy,

I set up bud/lou tubeless on my r/d's with surly strips and 1" wide gorilla tape on each side with no worries. I did use a tube to seat up one side, then removed the tube, set the wheel on a bucket for a gravity assisted blast of air to seat the loose bead. Inject 
5-6 oz. Stan's sealant and inflate and ride. Just bring a pump along 'cause your tires 
will get soft during the seal up ride.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

BansheeRune,

I probably could have went with the gorilla tape, and I have a roll of it laying around. The Nate had a similar issue with it not wanting to fill out the width of the Rolling Darryl rims, so I did the foam trick and split tube with it as well and it pumped right up. For now I'm good to go.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

I did consider using the foam trick, but utilized the tube to seat the beads and unseat one to remove the tube and install the valve stem. It did require laying the wheel on a bucket to air up tho'. Just hope it doesn't unseat when I'm riding nerf tires in the snow or sand. 
I do have a bicycle first aid kit just in case! So far the tubeless setup is working well and holding air better than latex tubes do.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

Update on my tubeless Nate conversion. This is on a Rolling Darryl rim using a split tube and some foam under the tube to help with seating. One side of the tire bead has seated perfectly and has zero leaks. The other bead doesn't want to seat, even aired up to a little over 20psi. It looks seated, but it keeps leaking sealant and goes flat in a few hours. I'm going to try popping the unseated bead back off and try re-inflating the tire and reseating it. Any other tips to try when I do this?


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## Espen W (Feb 4, 2012)

andy b. said:


> Update on my tubeless Nate conversion. This is on a Rolling Darryl rim using a split tube and some foam under the tube to help with seating. One side of the tire bead has seated perfectly and has zero leaks. The other bead doesn't want to seat, even aired up to a little over 20psi. It looks seated, but it keeps leaking sealant and goes flat in a few hours. I'm going to try popping the unseated bead back off and try re-inflating the tire and reseating it. Any other tips to try when I do this?


Take it to 30psi and bounce the wheel a few times make the beads seat properly.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Use a little Dawn and water, swab the beads, air it up and you'll be good to go...Hell of a lot cheaper that bead seating compound.


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

Let me preface this by saying that it's a purely academic pursuit. Experimenting with a somewhat unique method of conversion, even though split tube is proven, reliable, and effective on this, and virtually any, wheelset.

I've always wondered about making one's own tubeless rim strips, whether out of plastic, or rubber, or even heat shrink film. I needed to pull the front tire off to replace the foam anyway, as I had used fiberglass insulation in a pinch. I didn't have any sill foam on hand at the time of initial install.

My improvised method:

Started with a wrap of shipping tape, sticky side up:










Then a wrap of ribbon, cut to width, followed by two offset wraps of shipping tape, adhesive down, to fill the valley:










Then two wraps of sill foam. Pretty standard so far:










Here is where things get interesting. Take a suitable length and 6 to 7 inch width of 4 mil plastic sheet. Lay it out around the wheel and pull it tight:










Hold it in place or mark the overlap. Take it to an impulse sealer($20 on Amazon) and hit it once or twice to seal the loose ends together:










Pull it over the wheel. It should be a snug fit:










Punch a hole and install a Schrader valve:










I screwed the pooch on the valve install. I need a washer on the inside, but made a rubber one out of tube rubber. Leaked a bit after install as a result.

This setup likely would have seated with a hand pump, if not for the valve leak. It did push the tire to the bead, but I had to use the compressor and allow sealant to seal the valve. Holds air like a champ, but I don't think rubber/plastic is as good a seal as rubber/rubber is. May need a little adhesive to equal split tube dexterity and burp resistance.

After applying the tire, but before trimming:










I haven't run the setup yet, and am not recommending it, but I like the basic concept.

Advantages: Lighter than split tube. Unlimited cheap strips. Easy install. Fixed, threaded valve without using presta or expensive Schwalbe tubes. Moar funner.

Disadvantages: Not as grippy as tubes. Unproven. Separate valve and associated sealing issues. Requires special tool.

Up next: Acquire some boat wrap heat shrink and test it out. Try other forms of plastic. Increase bond between tire and strip. Testing. Profit.

Thanks for looking. Suggestions welcome.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

I ran into similar issues with the carpet film method mentioned earlier (post #589). To get around the leaking valve stem, I went with 949 racing schraders valves, which solved the problem, and while they look bulky, are only 1 gram heavier than a Stan's presta valve. I also found that I had to reinforce the valve seat area of the film with some filament tape. Schrader's are easier to add sealant through too. 

For the sill foam, I don't even waste time cutting it to width anymore, I just fold it in half, take 1 wrap, cut and tape it down - perfect. 

I like your method. I wonder, if you made the strip shorter in circumference and stretched it over the rim, would it be tight enough that it would sit above the rim bed and create the seal (sans foam)? 

The major disadvantage of the carpet shield uber light method, is exactly what you came across - very low friction between the tire bead and the plastic strip at the rim wall, resulting in really easy burping at snow riding pressures. Virtually the opposite of increased friction with a split tube. If I can keep my tires from burping at 3 psi on a Weinmann HL-80 with a split tube, under my Yeti self, then I think that's testament to how significant the friction is between a split tube and tire bead.

Where I think you method will be worth its weight in gold is on rims that are tubeless ready. Think Mulfut - no foam required, solid beadlock, one crazy light strip of 4 mil plastic heat sealed by your method, and a valve stem. No gorilla tape, no foam, no BS.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Would be nice if my RD's were a little easier for seating. They can't be done without a compressor assist. My own doing tho' cause I was too lazy to do the foam trick. Didn't want tire removal/install to be a pain. 

Truely amazed at the efforts and ideas folks have come up with for tubeless conversions. Good work and ideas in the thread!


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## Espen W (Feb 4, 2012)

Good work, AllMountin'
Over here, we use Gladpack/plastic wrap (6 loops). Weighs 5g per loop, so 30g total. (compare to 350g+ for a single split tube)
In addition, the wrap has a high coefficient of friction. I have been running it down to sub 1psi on the rear wheel (on non-tubeless ready rims) without burping.


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

I suppose I could add a layer or two of cling wrap for added gription. Just need to seal my valve better.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

AllMountin' said:


> I suppose I could add a layer or two of cling wrap for added gription. Just need to seal my valve better.


+1 on the 949 stems... how are you cutting out the stem hole?


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

I was going to try and melt it out, but that didn't work out so hot. The ribbon is not plastic. I ended up just poking it out with a small screwdriver.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I find a small X cut to get the stem started, then force it through, works best for me.

A nice feature of the 949 stems is that there is a substantial nut and washer on a large fully threaded stem to tighten down, and a big slot on the inside end to hold it from rotating.


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## tunadawg (Sep 14, 2012)

I have a Farley with Rolling Darryls and Kinard 120tpi tires. Tried to set it up tubeless with 3M clear duct tape. I did two wraps on the right, center and left side of the rim, one continuous piece. I still get sealant seeping out at lower pressures. 10-12 psi is fine, when I go lower it seeps out around the bead. If I wrap two more layers of tape on each side to build it up, will this help or solve my problem???? Or any other suggestions.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

I have Fatback carbon rims, with Stan's tape, Buds. Not sure the brand of valve stem. I had originally set them up with tubes. Rode about 150 - 200 miles total with them tubed. Got a front flat and decided to try setting them up tubeless this evening. I have no air compressor and very little experience with tubeless. 

-Unseated the bead on one side, removed the tube, installed the tubeless stem. 
-Pulled the loose bead over toward the bead seat by hand, most of the way around the tire. 
-Once it got to the point that there was suction/resistance when trying to pull a flattened section of the tire away from the rim, I went ahead and started pumping with a basic Blackburn floor pump. Aired right up. 
-Held air with no sealant for about 3 hours. Process was just as easy with sealant.


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

tunadawg said:


> I have a Farley with Rolling Darryls and Kinard 120tpi tires. Tried to set it up tubeless with 3M clear duct tape. I did two wraps on the right, center and left side of the rim, one continuous piece. I still get sealant seeping out at lower pressures. 10-12 psi is fine, when I go lower it seeps out around the bead. If I wrap two more layers of tape on each side to build it up, will this help or solve my problem???? Or any other suggestions.


I think you're on the right track. I'd try to build up the tape under the tire bead to make a tighter fit. It worked on my setup.


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## tunadawg (Sep 14, 2012)

Aceldama said:


> I think you're on the right track. I'd try to build up the tape under the tire bead to make a tighter fit. It worked on my setup.


Thanks. I'll give it a try.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Ran across this for those without a compressor or for portable tubeless air ups...

Bontrager TLR Flash charger pump with air tank. Kinda handy looking...

Bontrager: TLR Flash Charger (Model #11881)


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

I had some emails with Trek about my rear Jackalope / Hodag combo not wanting to hold air at low pressures. They said to use Gorilla tape to build up the diameter of the rim, as someone else has also posted a page or two back in this thread.

They didn't provide much in the way of detail, and they also neglected to tell me how many wraps of tape to apply. However, the previous poster said Trek told them two wraps, so that's what I did.

I used Gorilla tape that is 1" wide, and ran a strip down each inside edge of the rim, just kissing the edge of the tape up along the rim's sidewall.

I was still able to inflate the tire and seat the bead using my floor pump, same as before. Only small difference this time was that the bead loudly popped into place 3 or 4 times, instead of just the 2 times I was expecting.

The tire held 6 psi for 10 miles in 25 degree weather yesterday. I didn't dare go any lower, as we were pretty far from the car, but today I might take a run closer to home and do some experimenting.

Not wanting to jinx myself, but it's looking good so far.

Toby.


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

tpd said:


> I had some emails with Trek about my rear Jackalope / Hodag combo not wanting to hold air at low pressures. They said to use Gorilla tape to build up the diameter of the rim, as someone else has also posted a page or two back in this thread.
> 
> They didn't provide much in the way of detail, and they also neglected to tell me how many wraps of tape to apply. However, the previous poster said Trek told them two wraps, so that's what I did.
> 
> ...


Glad this worked out for you. It's worked pretty well for me with my Dillingers on Jackalope wheels. I did have the rear tire burp last week but I think I was well below 5psi.

I'm still a little miffed that we need to put tape on the wheels considering that they're supposed to be 'tubeless ready'.


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## tpd (Dec 10, 2014)

Aceldama said:


> I'm still a little miffed that we need to put tape on the wheels considering that they're supposed to be 'tubeless ready'.


Ditto.

Trek were quite blasé about it, and in no way apologetic, either. Just a "yeah you'll have to put some tape around the rim, or take it to a dealer who can do it for you."


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

I broke down and made up a fAt bike first aid kit involving a fairly large seat bag, spare surly tube, multi tool, patch kit etc. to have the essentials readily available on a ride. 

Glad you guys were able to sort out the tubeless setup and ride!


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## HypnoT0AD (Nov 21, 2013)

As it was Tuesday yesterday I attempted to try tubeless using the split tube method, using the AV-10D inner tube on my rear wheel. Rim = robsson 80mm rim: alloy rim RM80, 26", silver (matt) anodized, 32h - Robs'son - this has a big gap in the middle. The tyre is an On One Floater, and the tyre is very baggy on the rim.

It took many attempts to get it to mount, without any foam between the tube and rim.

After using a ratchet strap on the tyre, I now have it mounted, the tyre has quite a bit of wobble when I spin the wheel. Is this anything to worry about?

It's holding air, I put in around 200ml of sealant, and I've ridden it and it has not burped or given me any issues, and I also left it overnight and the pressure is around the same today as it was yesterday.

Would remounting it with foam between the tube and rim give me less wobble? Or is there a way I can remove the wobble without having to let it down? This tyre is rated for 20PSI, so I haven't taken it about 12PSI or so just to play it safe. I ride it between 8-10 PSI usually.

EDIT: Next time I have the bike in a stand I'll get a video of the wobble.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

The foam trick would make life easier when the rim does not have a UST style beadseat as there is no way to keep the tire seated after using a tube to seat it. Lube the beads before trying to seat the tire will help the tire seat better.


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## tedo (Apr 4, 2012)

I know I posted this in another thread (and technically it's Wednesday)...

Clown Shoe Rim Strips + Marge Lite rims + 5oz Stans was SO EASY and CLEAN to set-up tubeless. So easy. No split-tube, no tape, no foam, just easy...


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## HypnoT0AD (Nov 21, 2013)

BansheeRune said:


> The foam trick would make life easier when the rim does not have a UST style beadseat as there is no way to keep the tire seated after using a tube to seat it. Lube the beads before trying to seat the tire will help the tire seat better.


Thanks, I'm waiting for another tube for the front wheel, as I'm sticking with the split tube method, so when I do the front wheel I'll experiment with using foam and also try some soapy water on the beads before mounting.

As for the rear wheel, it did lose 1 or 2 PSI, but today I did find a little sealant had escaped after my 2nd ride:










I've pumped it back up to around 8.5 PSI now and will see if it holds again overnight


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

It's not unusual to lose some air during the first day do three. Pump it up, ride it and the sealant will start to work as it gets distributed around the tire.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Does Orange Seal sealant stay liquid? I used a lot in my rear tire (a lot if I was using Stan's), and today when I got a small abrasion on my Nate today, I finally relented and put a tube in, the Orange sealant was completely dry - so no possibility of sealing that hole up. I probably should have added more after the tire sealed up.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

The fat tires do require 6 oz. or more to seal up and maintain some liquid in the tire. It's not all that different than Stan's. Geit it seated up and feed it some more sealant and away you go. Occasionally I pull the rear wheel, give it a shake to check for liquid. The front just stand the bike up on the rear wheel and give ithe bars a sharp twist and listen for the sealant to slosh. Some times it needs topped off.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

Thanks. Good to know as I have quite a bit of Orange sealant here. Mounting up some FBN's on Marge Lites with Clownshoe rim strips today.


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## cycloxer13 (Oct 27, 2014)

I ran 4 oz. in my 4.6 Ground Controls all winter and had no problems. I maybe added 1-2 additional ounces over several months. It remained liquid.

I'm running 3 oz. in my 29-er 2.3's. We'll see how it fares over the spring/summer.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

With a 4.fAt, after a week I had to add sealant because the initial load of 4 oz.'s had coat4ed the interior of the tire and sealed it with a film of latex and the fluid was mostly used up. ended up having injected a total of 6 oz.'s. they are happy now and retaining air well.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

I don't know why I keep spending money and trying different methods to go tubeless when the split tube method works so well. 

I tried the clownshoe rim strip with the Marge Lite rim and FBN this morning on the back, I ran through three cycles of the air compressor without getting it to seal. I tried every trick I've read about, setting the bead with a tube (as soon as I deflated the tube the tire pulled back into the center), putting a ratchet strap around the tire, soap etc, etc. I couldn't get the bead to get close enough to the rim to get it to start taking air. I think part of the problem is the presta valve doesn't allow enough volume in to get that first push. 

I went and got the split tube liner I cut the other day - it's cut really close, but it was really easy to get it laid in evenly and get the tire inside the tube. I put a ratchet strap around the tire and rubbed soapy water on the bead. I didn't even have a full tank in the compressor, it started taking air immediately and it filled up easily. It seemed to seal fine, but only time will tell on that. So far the Marge Lite rims have proved to be good for tubeless with a nice shelf for the bead to sit on. 

I don't have a scale, but I really don't think my split tube liner weighs any more than the clownshoe rim strip and presta valve. Those rim strips are heavy. I don't do tubeless because of weight, but given a choice I'll take the lighter one that works. 

I have one tire with Stans and one with Orange Seal they both seem to be sealing ok.


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## tundratrader (Mar 5, 2010)

You can always use ether. It works 100% from what I have done. Just gotta be fast and careful.


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## lou926 (Sep 6, 2008)

*It Worked!*

I used Surly 75mm wide rim strips, 100 % silicone sealant and Sill foam on 80mm wide rims.

**If your rims are like mine which have a butted seam instead of a welded seam this is what I did. J-B water weld epoxy putty, follow instructions on package roll into a thin strip, apply to seam on rim all the way up to where tire bead will contact rim. Very impress with this product. Available from Home Depot

1. clean rims with alcohol
2. install rim strip
3. run bead of silicone under edge of rim strip, both sides. This seals any air or sealant from leaking under rim strip.
4. Let cure
5. Used Sill foam from Home Depot to aid in with inflation of tire. When cut to a width a little less than the inner width of the rim it keeps the tire bead up and out of the valley of the rim. This is optional step!
6. test 
7. Add sealant, do the dance
8. Ride


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## litespeedaddict (Feb 18, 2006)

[I think part of the problem is the presta valve doesn't allow enough volume in to get that first push. 

Unscrew the center of the valve core and use a blow gun at the end of your compressor and it will inject about twice as much air, and most likely solve your problem. Just have the center core handy so when you take you finger of if it to screw it back in, and you don't lose to much air and tire will stay seated. Start with more than you need, because it will lose a few psi, but not enough to let the tire fall back off the bead.


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## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

Jisch said:


> I don't know why I keep spending money and trying different methods to go tubeless when the split tube method works so well.
> 
> I tried the clownshoe rim strip with the Marge Lite rim and FBN this morning on the back, I ran through three cycles of the air compressor without getting it to seal. I tried every trick I've read about, setting the bead with a tube (as soon as I deflated the tube the tire pulled back into the center), putting a ratchet strap around the tire, soap etc, etc. I couldn't get the bead to get close enough to the rim to get it to start taking air. I think part of the problem is the presta valve doesn't allow enough volume in to get that first push.
> 
> ...


most have had to set their FBN's with a tube, leave it in for a week then set it up tubeless. It's a problem with the FbN's, not necessarily the valves or the clownshoes rimstrip method


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

I still maintain that split tube is easier. I did remove the cores of the presta and used my air gun, and maybe my air gun is different than others, but getting that mated perfectly to the presta valve is tough. I left the core in with the schrader valve when I filled it using a tire attachment, not the gun. When adding fluid, I find it easier to add with a core pulled out of a schrader than a presta - it's just wider. 

I am not arguing that clownshoe rimstrips don't work - obviously a lot of people get them to work, but for me split tube is easier and probably not any heavier. I really like that the valve is already sealed to the tube too - I've had an issue before where I couldn't get the nut on the top of the presta valve out without a pair of pliers (this was on a 29er wheel some years ago). 

Oh, one more thing, I have a Lenz floor pump that threads onto the stem, and I can't count the number of times the presta core comes out when I unthread the chuck, and yes I use pliers to tighten them. 

Anyway, glad to hear there is more than one way to do this, but I'll be sticking to split tube. I think people see that as more of a "hack" than the clownshoe method, I don't, or maybe it just doesn't bother me. The "ghetto tubeless" moniker probably doesn't help - marketing!


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## 03'Darin (Mar 10, 2011)

I converted my Fatboy rims a month or two ago with the 3M transparent duct tape. I didn't have any issue seating the beads but I did have issues with leaking off and on with both the front and the rear. I had initially used 6 oz of stans but then added 2 more ounces after several episodes of leaking and flat tires. For some reason the front wheel has finally sealed up and is working fine. But the rear wheel eventually crapped out and I had to throw a tube in it. When I pulled the tire off I couldn't believe how much sealer was in there. I haven't had time to get more tape and attempt to redo the rear again.

One thing I didn't do on either wheel the first time is throw a tube in after I tape the wheel but before I put the sealer in. I think that would help seal the tape together better and possibly press any small voids out of the tape. I'll be doing that when I reattempt the rear.

If that fails I'll be going split tube.

I went tubeless for the puncture resistance so weight between split tube or tubeless wouldn't matter to me. I didn't go split tube because I feel tubeless would have some minor advantages in a few areas.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Do the Fatboy rims have a UST style beadseat? It helps to have it for the burp resistance as well as keeping the tire seated even it it loses all the air. 
Use a tube to press the tape in place uniformly. Pump it up to 20-25 psi for the night, then remove it and sauce up your tire. Should be good to go. 

When you go to retape, do clean everything with isopropyl alcohol before the tape goes on. 

Best of luck. 

Yesterday I was grateful for the tubeless on rolling Darryl's cause my bike found a ton of goat heads.


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## 03'Darin (Mar 10, 2011)

BansheeRune said:


> Do the Fatboy rims have a UST style beadseat? It helps to have it for the burp resistance as well as keeping the tire seated even it it loses all the air.
> Use a tube to press the tape in place uniformly. Pump it up to 20-25 psi for the night, then remove it and sauce up your tire. Should be good to go.
> 
> When you go to retape, do clean everything with isopropyl alcohol before the tape goes on.
> ...


They don't have a UST style bead set. But once I tape the rim the tire seats up easily.

I do think that not airing a tube up after I taped it is part of my problem. As soon as I get tape I'm going to redo the rear again but air up a tube before I put the sealer in. I'll report back with my results once I do that


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Hope it works out for ya. It makes a huge difference in ride quality. The + is that those damn goatheads didn't let the air outta my day!


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## rjedoaks (Aug 10, 2009)

So you guys just add more goop when needed as oppossed to breaking the bead to clean out all the dried thingies. 


Pedaling


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## coastkid71 (Oct 21, 2008)

I gave up on proper tubeless style and went split tube tubeless on all my 7 Fat and 29+ wheels and wish i had done this years ago!, all aired up on the Track Pump, none of the previous valve hole and rim hole leaks after all attempts at taping etc.
Only the Nates were slack and were never going to inflate even with the compressor so i fitted foam and sorted them, none have went down in a week and some have not even been ridden yet, they are all holding air with no leaks.
Here is the blog post on my Tubeless setting which is done for thorn punctures and no pinch flats, not worried about the weight thing with Fatbikes as i still run Large Marges :thumbsup:

coastrider: Fatbike and 29+ Ghetto Tubeless Tuesday; ...


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Just do the shake test to see if you hear any sloshing, if not shoot some in through the valve stem. When I change tires for the season I clean out the shite. After all I don't want my tires feeling like I'm running thorn proof tubes...



rjedoaks said:


> So you guys just add more goop when needed as oppossed to breaking the bead to clean out all the dried thingies.
> 
> Pedaling


Great writeup on your blog CK


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## rjedoaks (Aug 10, 2009)

Banshee thanks. I used 8oz originally so I suppose it is still liquid. Concerned about the critters is all. I'll give it a shake.


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## blowery (Aug 28, 2014)

Went from Weinmann HL80s to Mulefuts. Running Framed tires, 1 rim strip, 1 pass of Sunringle Tape, stans no-tubes presta valves and popped on nicely with a compressor. 5oz of stans. Much nicer wheel set by far. Tires will not come off bead without really good pressure or stepping on it.


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## sdsyver (May 8, 2013)

Just set up Fatboy Pro tubeless via split tube. Held air even without Stans. Put 6oz in each just to be sure. Did both wheels in the time it took to wrap one clownshoe with tape. This is the way!


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Can I ask an ignorant split-tube question or two? I've been tubeless for several years on several bikes, but I've always done the tape because of the ease of switching tires, and I don't like the idea of anything between the tire and the bead seat area of the rim.

I just got a fat bike recently, and set it up tubeless with tape immediately. I used the transparent duct tape, and I'm already having some leakage issues. Super bummed. I've always used gorilla tape before on my "normal" bikes, and never had an issue. Shouldn't have taken the chance on the Transparent Duct Tape. My rims are Darryls, that I drilled out myself. I have to re-do it, and I'm either going to use Gorilla tape, or go (for the first time ever) with a split tube.

My two questions:

1. Really, no issues with that tube in there between the tire and the bead seat/lip of the rim? No burpage at fatbike low pressures?

2. How hard is it to re-use a split tube? Can you get a new tire to stay below the edge of that thing once you've already trimmed all the excess off from the initial set-up? Or are you guys replacing the tube every time you switch tires?

Thanks...


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## sdsyver (May 8, 2013)

CommutterBoy,
I can't answer either of your questions as this is my first time setting it up this way. What I can tell us that is was super easy. I think clean up will be much easier as well. No tape residue to deal with.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

1) No issues with burping as long as there is a good shelf to hold the bead. If you don't have a shelf then you need to build up the center with foam. I am not familiar with Rolling Darryls. 

2) I have switched tires multiple times with my split tube set up without issue. It can be harder to do that if you trim your tube really close. That said, I cut my last ones really close assuming that I would be changing it the next time I swapped a tire. On a whim I tried reusing it and it worked fine. You just have to make sure the tube gets pinched in between the rim and the bead. It's just a matter of making sure the tube is in the right place when you put the tire on - not a big deal at all.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Rolling Darryl's have a UST style beaseat, as do all Surly fat rims. Burping is a nonissue with gorilla tape to the edge of the rim or split tube method. Clean the rim, rimstrip with alcohol before taping so it will adhere. The best bet with tape is to run a tube for a day or two to set the tape reliably. Split tube does not require the day or two part of the process. And what Jisch said...

Rims without the UST beadseat are not as reliable for tubeless if you ever plan on running squishy tires on sand/snow. You are good to go with the Darryl's. Make sure to deburr the drillings in the rims and round over the edges a little.

Split tubes work well and have no trouble with tire changes.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Jisch said:


> 2) I have switched tires multiple times with my split tube set up without issue. It can be harder to do that if you trim your tube really close. That said, I cut my last ones really close assuming that I would be changing it the next time I swapped a tire. On a whim I tried reusing it and it worked fine. You just have to make sure the tube gets pinched in between the rim and the bead. It's just a matter of making sure the tube is in the right place when you put the tire on - not a big deal at all.


Thank you, that is what I wanted to hear. I love the tape set up on my "regular" bikes because it's so easy to swap tires. I'm going to look at what went wrong with the transparent duct tape and see if it's obvious before I go to the split tube, but we'll see. I've never done a rim with holes before, but I thought I was pretty careful. I did set it up with a tube overnight to compress the tape, etc... I've been tubeless for 6 or 7 years probably, and this is my first failure...I was probably due :lol:

On the tape, I've always gone on the flat bottom of the rim, up to the shelf, and let the tire contact metal everywhere. I've never had to use any kind of foam or anything (I have a huuuuuuge compressor at my disposal so no worries getting things seated). It just seems to me like you're weakening the tire/rim interface if you have a layer of rubber in there between the tire and the rim...I've never had a burping issue with my method, but I've never tried a tube, so it's just my assumption.

This is also my 1st time using the transparent duct tape that people rave about online... I've got seepage at a couple of rim holes, and I'm curious what failed. I've never had an issue with Gorilla Tape, so I may give that a shot first. ...but hearing that swapping tires with the split tubes is do-able, I may have to "downgrade" to that method :lol:

Thanks for the advice guys...


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

OK, time for tubeless failure analysis 101...

It was the holes that got me. I did a duct tape rim strip (upside down for pretty color of course. Then I did a layer of transparent duct tape sticky side to sticky side on top of my rim strip. Then I did two more laps of transparent duct tape, with the edges out at the bead seat area, which meant an overlap right there in the middle somewhere....

You can tell in the pic that the holes in the rim allowed the overlap part of these top two layers of tape to not adhere to each other well, and sealant snuck in, and was then on top of my 1st layer of tape (the one that was stuck onto the rim strip). Because the rim strip was exactly the same width as the 1st layer of tape, once the sealant was on top of that tape, it was able to just creep around the sides and out the rim holes.

GPS says I got 129 miles out of the set up before it started to fail.

I'm thinking that a skinnier pretty rimstrip tape would have prevented this problem. That way the 1st layer of tape (centered on the rim) would overlap the rimstrip tape enough to get a good seal onto the metal of the rim. This one layer of tape would probably be all you'd need actually.

So.... skinnier rim strip next time, and allow the 1st layer of tape to get a good stick to metal on either side of the rim strip (unless someone makes an extra wide tape?)

I was never figuring those rim holes would affect the way the two top layers of tape would stick to each other, but they obviously do. Fat bike learning curve...


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## blowery (Aug 28, 2014)

CommuterBoy said:


> So.... skinnier rim strip next time, and allow the 1st layer of tape to get a good stick to metal on either side of the rim strip (unless someone makes an extra wide tape?)


Sunringle has 78mm wide tape for 80mm rims, works great.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

^^ Cool. Just googled for that, and found that Gorilla Tape makes a wide roll also. Thanks.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I found some of the fat Gorilla Tape locally and was stoked to find out that it's sized just perfectly for a Rolling Darryl... the tape goes right up to the edge of the bead shelf of the rim, but not onto it, so the tire sits right down on metal everywhere. This pic is after seating one bead of the tire with a tube, and the tape lines up right up at the tire. I am very confident of this set-up.

Both of these tires held air fine with no sealant after popping them on with the compressor.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

CommuterBoy said:


> I found some of the fat Gorilla Tape locally and was stoked to find out that it's sized just perfectly for a Rolling Darryl... the tape goes right up to the edge of the bead shelf of the rim, but not onto it, so the tire sits right down on metal everywhere. This pic is after seating one bead of the tire with a tube, and the tape lines up right up at the tire. I am very confident of this set-up.
> 
> Both of these tires held air fine with no sealant after popping them on with the compressor.
> 
> View attachment 991025


So the tyre doesn't actually seal against the tape edge ?

Will this not allow create extra edges for the sealant to work it's way under if the bead doesn't trap the tape edge ?

Will it not increase the chance of failure / sealant seepage ?

Fat Biker


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

This is how I've done it with Gorilla tape on at least 4 skinny mtb's, and I've never had a gorilla tape failure. Up to, but not on the bead shelf. No tire trapping the tape edge down (but I do see the advantage there, if seepage was a problem under the tape). Even the overlap part of the tape (I usually overlap 3 or 4 inches) has never come loose on me, or shown any signs of the sealant getting under the tape. My 29er wheels are going on year 4 with the same gorilla tape set up this way.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Think the tape failures must be down to the type of tubeless solution used. Some seem to attack the glue on the tape and work their way out causing seepage. YMMV 


Fat Biker


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

CommuterBoy said:


> I found some of the fat Gorilla Tape locally and was stoked to find out that it's sized just perfectly for a Rolling Darryl... the tape goes right up to the edge of the bead shelf of the rim, but not onto it, so the tire sits right down on metal everywhere. This pic is after seating one bead of the tire with a tube, and the tape lines up right up at the tire. I am very confident of this set-up.
> 
> Both of these tires held air fine with no sealant after popping them on with the compressor.
> 
> View attachment 991025


Gorilla tape absorbs sealant, thusly losing it's adhesive properties, even when done perfectly.

Not trying to be Captain Buzzkill, just wish that Gorilla Tape would go away as an option for tubeless, because it always ultimately ends in a messy failure.


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## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

mikesee said:


> Gorilla tape absorbs sealant, thusly losing it's adhesive properties, even when done perfectly.
> 
> Not trying to be Captain Buzzkill, just wish that Gorilla Tape would go away as an option for tubeless, because it always ultimately ends in a messy failure.


+1.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I've read that on the internet before...not trying to argue, but the one layer of gorilla tape that is still holding air 4 years later on my 29er makes me want to see it fail myself before I make a call on that. I've done 4 bikes with it and never had a failure. I'm happy to post up on here if/when it fails...nothing to prove here... but I think you'll be waiting a long time for that post. 

I do agree that maybe I've just stumbled on a good sealant/tape friendship... I'm using Wade's Secret Sauce homebrew sealant... I will say that I was surprised at how easily the transparent duct tape I pulled off of these wheels came off...that adhesive was going south quick. 

I've done a lot of tire swaps on my gorilla tape set-ups and I've never seen anything to indicate that "gorilla tape absorbs sealant." 

Happy to report back when it leaves me stranded in the woods though... we'll call this day 1.............................................


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Hell, I'll call it year 1.5 since that's how long mine has been holding up. With several tire swaps in that time to boot. I will say that I've gone through some valve cores during that time. Those are maintenance items tho'...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

mikesee said:


> Gorilla tape absorbs sealant, thusly losing it's adhesive properties, even when done perfectly.


Hmm, ran it all winter with no issues whatsoever. Now I've taken the tires off and the wheels are sitting out, but I don't see any delamination of the tape. Maybe you get interference with the "edge" of the tape if it doesn't line up where you want on the rim, but plenty of us have used the gorilla for extended periods of time.

Ultimately, there is no messy failure for many of us. What does seem to be an issue are many rims that aren't really intended to be tubeless, despite claims otherwise. There seem to be many methods which are throwing **** at the wall to see what sticks, and sometimes very reliable setups are found, but the ease of setting up a system design for tubeless is miles ahead of these.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Like my thought would be with all those cutouts, you have all sorts of places where dirt and grime and work their way in and wedge in between the rim strip/tape and rim. The less you are running in between, the more likely, but dirt works it's way into places you never thought it could. Due to the low pressure nature of fat bikes, I'd say it's more likely than not. Once there's a way in, the system probably breaks down pretty fast. 

vs. smooth carbon rims that have virtually no way for dirt to work it's way from the rim to the tape, since every hole is filled by a nipple or the valve stem. It's a solid connection and there is a massive area for the tape to "grip". 

Be interesting to see if those that have had failures all have significant cut-outs, but there's probably more to it than just this...


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## MTFATBIKER (Apr 26, 2015)

Well I did my surley today. I bought 2x 24" tubes and we did the ghetto tubeless mod. Lots of stans and they are holding air. Ill roll around with them for a while then trim the excess tube off..


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## Gambit21 (Feb 6, 2015)

Jayem said:


> Like my thought would be with all those cutouts, you have all sorts of places where dirt and grime and work their way in and wedge in between the rim strip/tape and rim. The less you are running in between, the more likely, but dirt works it's way into places you never thought it could. Due to the low pressure nature of fat bikes, I'd say it's more likely than not. Once there's a way in, the system probably breaks down pretty fast.
> 
> vs. smooth carbon rims that have virtually no way for dirt to work it's way from the rim to the tape, since every hole is filled by a nipple or the valve stem. It's a solid connection and there is a massive area for the tape to "grip".
> 
> Be interesting to see if those that have had failures all have significant cut-outs, but there's probably more to it than just this...


Dirt is only going to get so far - very little will make it's way past the rim strip and then you have the tape adhesive past that, then you have the sealant. Realistically I don't see a problem.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Gambit,

The mudwampers might find this to be a concern...

My setup is Rolling Daryl's with holes. So far no complaints with grunge between the rim strip and rim. My bike lives in my home, so hygiene is rather high on the list. I don't envy the f/s owner that neglects their bike, let alone the rigid owners that neglect their bike. Just think where they'd be if they never brush their teeth...paying up the wazzoo for repairs.


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## nbwallace (Oct 8, 2007)

I tried to set up my Vinson (100mm Weinmann rims) tubeless this weekend. Split 24" 2.4-2.7 tubes over foam insulation. I thought I had it, but the rear has leaked down. Perhaps I'll try to reseat it. But they don't make the happy pop/ping I've gotten setting my 29ers up. I know the Weinmann rims are really difficult to setup, some have succeeded. It would be a pain to build up new wheels for what started as a $450 bike.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

I got wienmann rims to go split tube - my issue with them was that the bead would slip in during hard cornering and the tires would burp. I put a row of self adhesive tape around just inside the bead and it held fine. But I agree those rims are not very good for tubeless as there is no bead shelf at all, it's flat all the way across.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

nbwallace said:


> I tried to set up my Vinson (100mm Weinmann rims) tubeless this weekend. Split 24" 2.4-2.7 tubes over foam insulation. I thought I had it, but the rear has leaked down. Perhaps I'll try to reseat it. But they don't make the happy pop/ping I've gotten setting my 29ers up. I know the Weinmann rims are really difficult to setup, some have succeeded. It would be a pain to build up new wheels for what started as a $450 bike.


i used 24" 2.4-2.75 tubes to setup my new fbn tires last night. super easy. put a lil air in the tube to give it shape, mounted the tires on the rim with tube inside, then air'd em up. done. hold air perfect. will never burp.


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## Slow_Thyroid_Bike (May 28, 2015)

Did my first attempt at tape tubeless on the fatboy last night. I really had to rush (busy day) and was doing it before bed. Having never done it before, my first rim was a real shitshow, but it held air, so I put some sealant in, rode around a little, all seemed fine.

This morning one of them was flat - the overlapped section sucked. Rim #2 was much better and is in the car holding. I put a tube in the other tire and put the sealant in a ziploc in the meantime. 

I think this method is going to work out great though once I get a good wrap method down. I was way too wrinkly the first time.


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

That's why I like split tube, there's no good or bad jobs, or wondering if there's one wrinkle in there that's going to let the sealant through, also no stem leakage, ever.


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## newmarketrog (Sep 26, 2008)

Jisch said:


> That's why I like split tube, there's no good or bad jobs, or wondering if there's one wrinkle in there that's going to let the sealant through, also no stem leakage, ever.


that's why ordered the 24" toobz. just in case i ever decide to go split tube, i'll just pull the toobz and split em.


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## Slow_Thyroid_Bike (May 28, 2015)

Jisch said:


> That's why I like split tube, there's no good or bad jobs, or wondering if there's one wrinkle in there that's going to let the sealant through, also no stem leakage, ever.


Yeah, I totally don't blame you. I'm just stubborn and wanted to give the Pegasus a try.

If this doesn't work I'm first in line behind you for Split Tube. So far so good w/ the front though. Beat on it for 10 miles today after work and it held up great. Left it in a hot car all day beforehand as well (95 outside or so).


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## Jisch (Jan 12, 2004)

I would be running tape if I could have made it work. Plenty of people get it to work, so it can work!


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## Slow_Thyroid_Bike (May 28, 2015)

Attempt #2 for the back is done. Only got about 4" of what I'd consider "good" with no bubbles or creases at the start of the overlap back toward the valve stem :| had a few air bubbles after that.

At some point I'll get the tape thing down I guess but I just cant seem to figure out how to stretch, massage, unroll, and guide it all down at the same time.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Put the wheel in place and work your way around. Smooth the tape from the inside to the edge of the rim as you go. Then place a tube in the tire and air it up to 15-20 psi for a few days...


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

failure with gorilla: i wonder if this is due to ammonia based sealants? i have not had any issues using Conti Revo fluid, but it is non ammonia based. i was concerned regarding rotting nipples (!) with the stans etc type sealants. so far, I have had exceptionally good results from revo over the last few years, as in no punctures on 4 bikes, lots of miles, lots of terrain. in fairness, i try to use good, tubless ready tyres which i think makes a massive difference, but i did spend a year + on 120 tpi knards also.

i am, however, looking at different sorts of tape.

this thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/tubeless-tape-thread-926021.html

has some useful info, including my own thoughts so far:

" hello. just been reading these threads. i'm about to tape up a HED big ride rim set.

interesting stuff. summary: adhesives tend to be acrylic or rubber based. then tape are various materials with various conformation properties and elongation. It seems the stronger adhesive tapes folk mention use acrylic based adhesives (im not sure what tyvek tape uses), tapes such as the tesa and stans seem to lack some stretch to me - they are polyporp - so might not be ideal over the exposed nipples of single wall rims such as the HEDS. the tesa 4288 and 4289 have a rubber adhesive.

the 3m 8898 is polyprop with a synthetic rubber resin adhesive. again, this might explain the reports of less adhesiveness. no idea what clear gorilla tape is.

3m 471 was mentioned: it is vinyl, conformable, but thin. it uses a rubber adhesive. i'm guessing it might deform around stuff well?

i was wonderign about using tape such as 3m 'scotchguard' tape&#8230;

product data here - http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/9... 2014_R4.pdf

i suspect it might be a bit thin for just one layer (~ 0.2mm) but wondered if anyone had any experience of it? it seems like it would be like thin 'helicopter' tape. 3m 8671 seems to be the 'copter tape of choice&#8230;available in bike friendly widths and lengths. it is acrylic adhesive polyurethane tape, 0.36mm thick, puncture and abrasion resistant. (specs here)

there is also 3m 480 poly ethylene tape - very thin, but designed as a comforming protection tape - with an acryllic adhesive. dont know much about that stuff&#8230;

i've used helicopter tape on carbon components to prevent rub and it seems to adhere well.

ok: that was an hours reading on my behalf and i thought id distill my thoughts in case it helps anyone else. if i try with any of the thin plyurethane tapes ill let you know how it goes.

edit: just a wee bit more: from the tesa site about different adhesives&#8230;

Exploring Adhesives Used in PSA Tapes - The tesa Technology Journal - tesa tape North America


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I bought a large roll of Stans tape, I think its 20mm, it has lasted for years, a single wrap on most rims and it has never failed. Granted, I'm not trying to "volume fill", but I also don't generally try to make non TL rims and tires work as TL. I did get a 36" wire bead to go TL with Stans tape and it worked for a few years, but I always worried about a blow out.

I wouldn't use duct tape or gorilla tape because it's heavy, it's absorbent, and the adhesive gets all over whatever it touches. 

Wouldn't multiple wraps of TL tape also work to fill volume at the bead?


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## MTFATBIKER (Apr 26, 2015)

MTFATBIKER said:


> Well I did my surley today. I bought 2x 24" tubes and we did the ghetto tubeless mod. Lots of stans and they are holding air. Ill roll around with them for a while then trim the excess tube off..


Well I checked the bike a day later and one of the tires had started to loose air. I aired it up and rolled the bike around.

Today I checked it again and both tires were low. I aired them up and again rolled it around. I need to go ride but I have a 48 this weekend and wont be able to touch it till monday.


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## Slow_Thyroid_Bike (May 28, 2015)

Slow_Thyroid_Bike said:


> Attempt #2 for the back is done. Only got about 4" of what I'd consider "good" with no bubbles or creases at the start of the overlap back toward the valve stem :| had a few air bubbles after that.
> 
> At some point I'll get the tape thing down I guess but I just cant seem to figure out how to stretch, massage, unroll, and guide it all down at the same time.


Update: That worked great for a day and then failed. My seam was too shitty.

So Attempt #3 I pretty much did the best I could with the overlap, then took another 6-7" long piece and put that OVER the seam (so you have the base overlap then a patch on top of THAT and it's all smooth there).

Seems solid. Rode on it and no worries so I'll be taking that out for extensive testing tomorrow. Still feels light and great.


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

well, i ended up with some 3M 7641 - basically not too thick vinyl tape with a rubber based adhesive (if memory serves). this is once round on HED rims. i ended up going twice round, as initially i am going to be using tubes and i was not confident it was thick enough to stop the nipples ending up piercing the tape with the tube rubbing on them. i think once round would be fine for tubeless (no tube to rub on the nipples).

adhesion feels good. it was very easy to work with.

it was fine getting the bulk of the air bubbles out by hand with once round (its quite elastic tape), i could have finished off with using a tube briefly, but a devil with twice round. once i get the tyres off again, i'll take another pic.

we'll see&#8230;.i'll report back once i get it set up tubeless with Conti Revo, in about a month.


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## MTFATBIKER (Apr 26, 2015)

Well I got to take mine on a decent 6mi ride. It was mostly dirt county roads. The tires seemed to hold air but I havnt had the chance to check the bike since. Hopefully it worked.


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## jasevr4 (Feb 23, 2005)

What are the best valves on the market right now? Anyone tried these aluminium valves? I wouldn't mind some blue ones for my bike. If you are using something else, which ones are the best to try?


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## thickfog (Oct 29, 2010)

Tried so many and stans is still the best.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

The 949 schrader valves are great for fat rims, drill out your rim to 5/16" if necessary.


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## fotooutdoors (Jul 8, 2010)

Need some feedback on tubeless setup, because I am failing. Admittedly, this is my first attempt on any wheels. I bought a Mulefut wheelset used, mounted a Hodag, and it held air (or so it seemed), so I added Stans. On a short ride the next day, I saw it seeping out through one of the cutouts, so I emptied the Stans, washed everything (Surly rim strip, rim, tire).

Tried retaping, first with helicopter tape (I had it on hand), then several attempts with 3M 8087 tape. I start with cleaning any Stans that has come out of the small holes along the edges (from the first failed attempt), do a wrap that covers the small holes, then another (continuous) wrap along the other edge. Pierce the valve hole with a hot screwdriver, and melt it to the edges of the hole. Install the tire and a tube. Let it sit for at least 10 minutes (usually overnight), then deflate, break one bead to remove the tube and install the valve, and finally reinflate (usually completely seated between 10-15 psi).

Sounds right? Well, when I leave the tire overnight after pumping up to 10 psi, it deflates significantly, say to 1 or 2 psi. If I spray with soapy water, I see a very slow leak at the rim seam. Is this normal, and I should just throw in Stans and hope that the very slow leak will get plugged, despite my previous issues, or?

Feedback much appreciated! I feel like a bumbling idiot, which while not an unusual experience, is so when working on a bike.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Try some very thin (runny) superglue (cyanoacrylate) to seal the seam and any other manufacturing holes around the rim (my On-One Fatty rims had four about 2mm in dia)

Might need a couple of passes if it's really thin glue. 

HTH ? 



Fat Biker


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## Slow_Thyroid_Bike (May 28, 2015)

Could there be a way to use a layer of superglue over a tape-on-tape seam? Like...could that keep sealant from getting under it?

Or do you mean the seam around the edge of the rim?


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## Gambit21 (Feb 6, 2015)

He's talking about the rim itself prior to adding any tape.


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## jkander (Nov 10, 2014)

After two failed attempts at the tape method I finally conceded defeat. I ordered two Q-tubes and decided to go the split tube route. Tubes came in today, thankyou Mr. Postman, and wow that was stupid easy to do. Break down the tires (had to be careful sealant was already in the tire from the failed tape attempts), split the tubes, install split tube on rim, wipe out the powder from the inside of the tube, tire back on, ratchet strap around the tire to help seat the bead, quick shot with the compressor, and pop pop the beads seat. That’s it we are done folks! Went for a shakedown ride on my local trail loop to play with the tire pressure and added 4/10’s of a MPH to my personal best average speed. If you are on the fence about tubeless or are getting frustrated with the tape route give this a try. It’s easy and it works.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Slow_Thyroid_Bike said:


> Could there be a way to use a layer of superglue over a tape-on-tape seam? Like...could that keep sealant from getting under it?
> 
> Or do you mean the seam around the edge of the rim?





Gambit21 said:


> He's talking about the rim itself prior to adding any tape.


Yup directly to the rim is what I meant .Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Fat Biker


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## fotooutdoors (Jul 8, 2010)

Thanks fat biker. I will try gluing the holes and seam. I had entertained the idea before, but wasn't sure if supper glue would be flexible enough.


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## Bumpyride (Jan 2, 2014)

fotooutdoors said:


> Thanks fat biker. I will try gluing the holes and seam. I had entertained the idea before, but wasn't sure if supper glue would be flexible enough.


I have mulefuts and used the Stretch Wrap system which covers all the holes and seams. The technique that I used can be seen here:
Tubeless With Stretch Wrap by Bumpyride69 | Photobucket


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## fotooutdoors (Jul 8, 2010)

@bumpyride I have been hesitant using stretch wrap as I perceive it to be less reliable (thinking a puncture object could hit the wrap), but thinking back on my days where in used the stuff on pallets, it is remarkably robust. Maybe I will do wrap over tape, as the tape will better stabilize the rim strip; an exposed nipple or open cutout would be the end of the stretch wrap in a single ride.


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## Bumpyride (Jan 2, 2014)

You do use the rim strip in addition. Any stretch wrap would just be additional protection and is not in leiu of rim strip. The beauty of the stretch wrap is that it additionally covers all of the interior of the rim and bead lock all the way to the outside of the rim.


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

jkander said:


> After two failed attempts at the tape method I finally conceded defeat. I ordered two Q-tubes and decided to go the split tube route. Tubes came in today, thankyou Mr. Postman, and wow that was stupid easy to do. Break down the tires (had to be careful sealant was already in the tire from the failed tape attempts), split the tubes, install split tube on rim, wipe out the powder from the inside of the tube, tire back on, ratchet strap around the tire to help seat the bead, quick shot with the compressor, and pop pop the beads seat. That's it we are done folks! Went for a shakedown ride on my local trail loop to play with the tire pressure and added 4/10's of a MPH to my personal best average speed. If you are on the fence about tubeless or are getting frustrated with the tape route give this a try. It's easy and it works.


This!!!!!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## HT5rider (Feb 26, 2012)

Is it not time someone started marketing a sealing rim strip with built in valve like Mavic and others do, but made specifically for the various fat bike rims. Split tube is fine but it would be nice to have a proper strip that fitted into the rim beads neatly.


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## 03'Darin (Mar 10, 2011)

I tried multiple attempts at tubeless with my Fatboy. Front wheel took on the first try and is still holding with zero air loss. After about 5 attempts with the rear I went split tube. Sealed up on the first shot with 4 oz of stans and hasn't lost any air after about 3 weeks. Took about 5 minutes from start to finish. I did a buddies Fatboy and both of his are holding with no air loss also. I'll be converting my front as soon as it starts to lose air.


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## daspi (Jul 24, 2015)

Hey, anybody seen this new milKit kit? Super easy tubeless maintenance. Should make refilling and maintaining the right amount of sealant much easier. 
milKit - easy maintenance of tubeless bike tires


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## vmk (Jul 12, 2015)

*21g tubeless conversion SULO*

I copied the idea of split tube, but made it lighter:

Starting with DT:s 2250 front wheel. *1247g*:








1st. I added 2 layers of 45mm fiberglass reinforcement tape that is used to make gib walls. I made my 1st try without it and it worked OK too, but I just wanted to make it a little bit more durable against any sticks etc. to puncture trough. *1259g*








Then I cut a length of vacuum bag (used to store food) and sealed the seam to make a "rim strip" that just goes over walls of the rim when streched:















The setup with out a valve. There's a 14g of extra plastic that I measured after putting the tire on and trimming it. *1282g*








So 1282 - 1247 - 14g = *21g* (+ valve)

I used soldering iron to make a hole for the valve. Use something hot, plastic tears easily. I taped holes in the DT's rim with Stans yellow tape to prevent any water getting in.








The front wheel with 100g of stan, Surly BFL:








My tire popped on the rim without any hassle and there was just a small leak where the heat sealed seam goes. Nothing else, very easy installation even with a small compressor.

Long term reliability, I don't know, I'll let you know...


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## chocolatemoeze (Jun 22, 2005)

Did you use a compressor to inflate?


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## lwkwafi (Jan 29, 2006)

fotooutdoors said:


> Need some feedback on tubeless setup, because I am failing. Admittedly, this is my first attempt on any wheels. I bought a Mulefut wheelset used.


As I was researching my future purchase of a Fat CAAD, I saw they had these rims, and I found tubeless rim tape for them. 
*Bikeman SunRingle Mulefut Tubeless tape, 78mm wide, 10m roll*
Has anyone used this? I haven't seen many mention it in my perusing of these threads (though still early on this particular thread).


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## MIKE157 (Nov 30, 2008)

Has anyone used this? I haven't seen many mention it in my perusing of these threads (though still early on this particular thread).[/QUOTE]
I have used that tape . I tried with several different types of tape with no success . The Sunringle tape has worked perfect.


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## fotooutdoors (Jul 8, 2010)

Just a follow-up on my issues. I broke the beads and inspected the tape, which seemed perfect. So, I reinflated and looked at the leak with soapy water. It seems there was a consistent slow leak all the way around both the beads. I would think this odd, but my beads do seat at a fairly low pressure (10 psi vs almost 20 with the Bud on the front). At any rate, I added Stans, did the shake, and took a ride. It hasn't leaked anything perceivable since Saturday; I aired down the tires for last night's ride, as a matter of fact. So, I question if this slow leak was my issue all along. 

Regardless, Thus far, it seems that the 3M 8087 works. If you are considering this, make sure to wrap all the way to the edge; my tape goes up the wall a tiny bit. I did a little over two wraps total (one on each side plus some crossover between the two sides) and put a tube in overnight.


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

Dtswiss br-710 rims

Hpx6200 repair tape as flipper inside out (glue side inside)

tubeless non stech tape 80mm









just inserted tubless valves

and inflated with compressor just like that.

weight about 30g per wheel


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## nbwallace (Oct 8, 2007)

That's awesome. I just got a pair of these rims from bike24 for $235 shipped. What kind of tubeless tape did you use. It's pretty hard to find in 75mm widths.


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

some 3m ) 
the most important it has to be not stretching


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## freebird_78 (May 1, 2015)

This is the best stuff I've found to date. So much better than the clear Gorilla or clear Duct tape. Cheap too.

Shop Shurtape 1.88-in x 180-ft Red Stucco Poly Tape at Lowes.com

Looks (except color, of course) and feels exactly like Stan's.


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## wagonguy1989 (Jun 19, 2015)

my fatty has 100mm rims but no cutouts, do i still need rim tape to go tubeless? it has a rim strip on it.... just wondering...


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## chocolatemoeze (Jun 22, 2005)

freebird_78 said:


> This is the best stuff I've found to date. So much better than the clear Gorilla or clear Duct tape. Cheap too.
> 
> Shop Shurtape 1.88-in x 180-ft Red Stucco Poly Tape at Lowes.com
> 
> Looks (except color, of course) and feels exactly like Stan's.


Why so much better?

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## freebird_78 (May 1, 2015)

As compared to Stans? Because I can go 5 minutes from my house and pick some up for $8 anytime I want, night or day. And that roll will probably last me my lifetime.

As compared to Gorilla and duct? It is absolutely smooth, no texture at all, and has some elasticity to it. Just think of electrical tape, but with much better adhesive, and much wider. Makes it MUCH easier to lay down cleanly. And speaking of clean, the adhesive removes completely, unlike the other two. It is also 7 mil thick and very light.

It really does look, feel and perform identically to Stans. Just a lot cheaper and easier to get a hold of. Only "drawback" is that you have to cut it to width. For me, that's a benefit. One roll covers all 6 wheel sets.


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## rjedoaks (Aug 10, 2009)

wagonguy1989 said:


> my fatty has 100mm rims but no cutouts, do i still need rim tape to go tubeless? it has a rim strip on it.... just wondering...


In your case the strip is used to cover the spoke holes. Tape is what seals the rim when goop is added. So, yes, tape is needed.

Pedaling


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I also had significantt rim seam leakage on a TL set up I did last night; it's not a TL rim. I kept working the sealant back and forth, ultimately I got enough in the seam that it stopped leaking, and it held overnight. Will it hold for riding, maybe, if not I'll go split tube or full width tape.



jkander said:


> After two failed attempts at the tape method I finally conceded defeat. I ordered two Q-tubes and decided to go the split tube route. Tubes came in today, thankyou Mr. Postman, and wow that was stupid easy to do. Break down the tires (had to be careful sealant was already in the tire from the failed tape attempts), split the tubes, install split tube on rim, wipe out the powder from the inside of the tube, tire back on, ratchet strap around the tire to help seat the bead, quick shot with the compressor, and pop pop the beads seat. That's it we are done folks! Went for a shakedown ride on my local trail loop to play with the tire pressure and added 4/10's of a MPH to my personal best average speed. If you are on the fence about tubeless or are getting frustrated with the tape route give this a try. It's easy and it works.


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## jkander (Nov 10, 2014)

Good luck Ben. I hope it holds for you. I have about 40 miles on my split tube now and all is well. I am running Clown shoes with Bud and Lou so full width tape was hard to come by. My attempts were with clear duct and Gorilla tape.


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

holds air for 24h even without sealant


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## wjh (Feb 29, 2012)

cka3o4nuk said:


> holds air for 24h even without sealant


What valve stem is that?


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

its shrader valve for moto....
2$ per 1pcs








like this


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Well, after repeatedly saying that I wasn't going down that road on my fattie, I finally decided that there were too many good arguments in favor not to give it a try. I used this method, with the only difference being that I used the clear Gorilla repair tape (lighter than the regular Gorilla tape) and 8oz. of Stans per wheel (4.8" tires). Super easy and as of last night, air pressure was holding perfectly after riding around on them for a few miles. Still tight as a drum this morning.

Final weight results (Surly Clownshoe/Lou combo):

Front wheel: 8 lbs
Rear wheel: 9.5 lbs

Diminshed rolling resistance was immediately noticeable. :thumbsup:


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

freebird_78 said:


> This is the best stuff I've found to date. ...
> Shop Shurtape 1.88-in x 180-ft Red Stucco Poly Tape at Lowes.comLooks (except color, of course) and feels exactly like Stan's.


That type of tape is the new darling for securing double-foil-sided bubble-wrap insulation/radiant-barrier at Burning Man, with high-hold, UV, waterproof, comformable, and particularly due to the _*"14 day Clean Removal"*_.

As a DIY tubeless tape with fat bike wheels:
how many months have you run it tubeless without issues?
in what temperatures?
what sealants have you used?
Thanks,


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

an update on the 3M 764 (1)

i pumped up a nate with no sealant (as in there has not been any sealant in the tyre before and i added none) to 20psi using a HED rim and it held overnight for the most part. it dropped from 20psi to 10psi in 24 hours.

once i added sealant it hasnt dropped at all.

i mounted a flowbeist and the same story.

so far this has been only a week and the temps here have not gone above 70 f or so, so limited info so far, but the stuff is cheap and easy to work with so if it lasts the distance im going to be happy.

more in time.











dRjOn said:


> View attachment 998675
> 
> 
> well, i ended up with some 3M 7641 - basically not too thick vinyl tape with a rubber based adhesive (if memory serves). this is once round on HED rims. i ended up going twice round, as initially i am going to be using tubes and i was not confident it was thick enough to stop the nipples ending up piercing the tape with the tube rubbing on them. i think once round would be fine for tubeless (no tube to rub on the nipples).
> ...


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

Set up my Holey Daryls ghetto with Spesh 4.6 Ground Controls using just a surly rimstrip and 24" split tube yesterday. Little blast from the compressor and a floor pump to finish to 20 lbs. and they held overnight with no Stan's. Looking forward to trying them out!


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

Just a long overdue (and pain in my backside) update. I never got the Nate to hold air, which really pisses me off. I am tempted to just take the tire and split tube and foam off, and start all over again. The tire looks like it is seated, but it keeps leaking along both beads. I think this is the first split tube conversion I have heard of not working.



andy b. said:


> Update on my tubeless Nate conversion. This is on a Rolling Darryl rim using a split tube and some foam under the tube to help with seating. One side of the tire bead has seated perfectly and has zero leaks. The other bead doesn't want to seat, even aired up to a little over 20psi. It looks seated, but it keeps leaking sealant and goes flat in a few hours. I'm going to try popping the unseated bead back off and try re-inflating the tire and reseating it. Any other tips to try when I do this?


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

Try installing a tube for a couple rides and try again. That'll stretch the tire out so it will seal easier. I was able to easily seal my Daryls with just a rimstrip and split tube, no foam needed.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

When I first installed the Nate way back in Feb, I ran a tube for a few days. The tire looks like it seats, but the bead always leaks. I thought maybe given enough time and Stan's, it would eventually stop, but it won't hold air for more than about 12 hours.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

andy b. said:


> When I first installed the Nate way back in Feb, I ran a tube for a few days. The tire looks like it seats, but the bead always leaks. I thought maybe given enough time and Stan's, it would eventually stop, but it won't hold air for more than about 12 hours.


Get some Mould Builder Latex, Brush Latex or whatever it's called over with you. Get it from a modelling shop, used to make latex models/masks... stinks of ammonia and goes off like a bullet.

Paint it around the offending bead when you have the tyre on the rim, just before hitting it with air. When it pops into place the latex goes off, sealing the stans in the tyre. It comes off again like dried stans.

I have also used it on important events, 2-3 scoops of stans and 1 scoop of Mould builder latex. It will harden in about 3-4 weeks but if you get a puncture, that stuff will seal holes that stand would squirt through all day long.

It only needs to last for the event, then I mean to change it for fresh stuff after (said that twice now, usually get a flat 4-5 weeks later as there is only a big dry super goober left)


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

Ah yes, I know what you're talking about. Now to find some locally. The last time I used it was many years ago in highschool.


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## fotooutdoors (Jul 8, 2010)

If you have a Michaels around, they should have some in stock, though it may have say on the shelf too long and dried up (check before leaving the store; it happened to me). It is the primary source for the diy stans crowd. Also, it is available on Amazon.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

^^Yes of course... its the primary ingredient in ghetto stans.

Give the tub a shake when you get to the store, maybe lift the one at the back incase they do a stock rotation. Its lasts a while at home too, I'm still using the same 2kg tub I bought 2 years ago, gone a bit rubbery around the lid due to pouring it out.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ozzybmx said:


> ^^Yes of course... its the primary ingredient in ghetto stans.
> 
> Give the tub a shake when you get to the store, maybe lift the one at the back incase they do a stock rotation. Its lasts a while at home too, I'm still using the same 2kg tub I bought 2 years ago, gone a bit rubbery around the lid due to pouring it out.


I take it out, mix it with my other stuff, and put my pre-mix in mason-jars, which works fine. I just give the jar a good shake before I open it to pour some out.


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## Kbbob (Sep 30, 2013)

andy b. said:


> When I first installed the Nate way back in Feb, I ran a tube for a few days. The tire looks like it seats, but the bead always leaks. I thought maybe given enough time and Stan's, it would eventually stop, but it won't hold air for more than about 12 hours.


Hi, Andy.

Sorry if I missed it, but what stem are you using, and are there any possible punctures/splits in the actual split tube that are allowing leakage? Is it a 24" or 26" Q-Tube you are using? Did you pull the valve stems and re-seal them.

I tried Nate's/Darryl's with two types of tape and Orange Valves (at the same time setting up Knard's/Rabbit Holes). Gave up on both and went to straight split Q-Tubes and haven't looked back. Also did the same trial with Rabbit Hole/Knaard at the same time, and went easy split tube with those.

The aftermarket valves weren't sealing at all with tape tries, and I do know I have seen posts on these boards where people have used a split tube with an aftermarket valve. The Orange Valves came with two, tiny, aftermarket O-rings and in retrospect, with those rims, no wonder they didn't work. The Stan's also seemed to flow at will through some pretty carefully applied Gorilla and 3M tape, although it was maybe colder than spec when I installed them.

The last thing I did for the Nates' and the Knaards, and a 41c set of Knaards on my Ogre was to check along the bead for frigging mold flashings. There were some, and a little knife and sandpaper work at least made me feel better, even if it didn't help the bead seat any easier or cleaner.

Best of luck to you. You will really appreciate the difference when you get it figured out.

Cheers
Kevin


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

Kevin,

I'm using a 24" split Q-tube with the Q-tube valve still in it (I didn't cut it out and put a new one in, just sliced the tube down the middle and installed it).

I did pull the valve guts when I put the sealer in, but it is possible it might have a small leak there. I'll check it.

The bead seating areas is where the leaks are. And now that you mention it, it did look like there is some flashing there when I checked them today.

I re-seated them yesterday and they seem to be holding air. I went for a ride this morning. This afternoon I checked the pressure and it still seemed okay, but there was some green bubbling along the bead. Maybe they finally sealed? Who knows. I'll check it again in a few days and see what it looks like.

Andy B.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

Holy canolli batman.. Finally took the plunge and got my fatboy tubeless.. I went with the split tube since it looks like it is bullet proof compared to tape.. Anyway, my first attempt was complete utter failure.. Using a 24" q-tubes, dillinger 5 would not seal.. Half of the tire was open.. Gave up after 2 hours.. After another 2 hours, i watch a video on vimeo on ghetto tubless.. Saw that they used a wrap outside the tire to help close the gap on the rim and tire.. Got my fatboy rim out and this time i used the 26" tube as a wrap.. Had to cut it in half horizontally and used the lower half with the presta valve.. Aired it up with the compressor i got at walmart for $56.. Success.. Sealed but in my haste forgot to add the orange seal.. So took the air out, opened up one side, got the sealant in and vuala, done.. But crap, tire is on the wrong direction.. Doh!!! So third time.. Air out, flip the tire , wrap outside, aired up again and done.. Phew!! Rear tire took me less than 20 min to go tubless after that.. No leaks!!! Can't wait to hit the trails this weekend!!


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## ttakata73 (Feb 9, 2012)

I am new to tubeless and fatbikes.
Has anyone tried using Gardner Bender Liquid Tape to seal the rim?
It's a rubber you can paint or spraycan on.
I reckon you can have just a rim strip and spray this over the entire inner surface including the bead hooks.
Since its rubber, it should seal well.
I use it to seal quadcopter electronics and it seems durable so thought someone might want to try it.

I tried to post about it in another thread but it never posted.
Sorry, I didn't read the first 33 pages of this thread and searches for "liquid tape fat bike" is too generic and don't result anything.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

ttakata73 said:


> I am new to tubeless and fatbikes.
> Has anyone tried using Gardner Bender Liquid Tape to seal the rim?
> It's a rubber you can paint or spraycan on.
> I reckon you can have just a rim strip and spray this over the entire inner surface including the bead hooks.
> ...


So what happens when you have to replace a spoke or nipple?


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## SteveF (Mar 5, 2004)

Man, I went tubeless on my Muikluk recently and it absolutely transformed the bike! I replaced the stock wheels and Larry/Endo tires with a set of White Industries Snowhite hubs laced to Mulfut rims and with VanHelga tires--it took nearly 5 pounds off the bike! And it feels so much livelier and quicker now--love it!


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## ttakata73 (Feb 9, 2012)

Good question.
Once I painted it over some LEDs of an electronics board by mistake and just used tweezers to rip the rubber off in that area.
I had used the brush on version and after layering it up in 5 coats, it was pretty tough to rip off but it didn't leave any residue like an adhesive tape does.
You can paint as many layers of this rubber up over itself which makes me think it might be good for tubeless.
I don't have a fatbike yet so can't really experiment, but the stuff is only $7 at Home Depot so I was hoping someone would test it out before I get a bike.


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## Turd (Jul 21, 2005)

ttakata73 said:


> I am new to tubeless and fatbikes.
> Has anyone tried using Gardner Bender Liquid Tape to seal the rim?
> It's a rubber you can paint or spraycan on.
> I reckon you can have just a rim strip and spray this over the entire inner surface including the bead hooks.
> ...


Same thought, trying this out on a beat skinny wheel for fun.
Also want to try glass drywall tape rim strip 
with the stretch wrap method once my fat arrives.


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

av8or said:


> .....So third time.. Air out, flip the tire , wrap outside, aired up again and done.. ....


Yes, but are the logo's aligned with the stems?
4th time, just for practice sake......


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## nbwallace (Oct 8, 2007)

Got my DT-Swiss BR710s setup this weekend. It took some time. First I tried this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A7I5IP2/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

Not so good. Then I tried this:

5 in. x 1000 ft. High Performance Stretch Wrap

It still took some doing but eventually the Bulldozers set up. I probably dropped at least 3 lbs from the Vinson. But by now the only thing left is the frameset.


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## cwalton (Jan 17, 2013)

But crap, tire is on the wrong direction.. Doh!!! So third time..

Ha! I just did the same thing. After two failed attempts for various reasons, I gave it a go today with 3" Gorilla tape. I taped the small holes individually. I was having no luck at all. Then I read someone ask about glueing the beads with tubular glue. Well I did not have any of that, but I did have some very strong rubber cement, so I 'painted' the rim/bead, aired it up with the tube and let the cement dry. Then I pealed the rim back and stripped the tube out. I could not get it to seat with the pump, but it aired up in 30 seconds with the compressor and was holding air. After another 20 minutes I pulled the valve core, added sealant and now it seems to be holding air fine. We will see in the morning. 

But the tire is still on backwards.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

^^^ lol.. nothing more frustrating than finally getting the bead to seal and finding out tire is on backwards..


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## lwkwafi (Jan 29, 2006)

Had some success with the Specialized Hellga stout xc rims, ground countrol 120tpi and Scotch tough transparent duct tape. 
Tubeless Fatbike Conversion Update | Cycles In Life

On the first wheel, the tape backed away some and sealant leaked into those pesky holes they have on the rim. But after pulling and retaping, it went great. Second set I used soem epoxy over the holes just in case. I think I just stretched the transparent tape better this time.

Looked like 1.4lbs or so savings over the stock tubes.


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## tfinator (Apr 30, 2009)

This thread isn't long enough, so I'm gonna post.
On my 65mm nextie rims the initial set up of the FBN was easy.
I had to add a bunch of stans yesterday so a broke the bead, and the tire was much much looser than it was before.

One bead stayed set, but none of the basic tricks worked to get a seal on the other one.

Using a tire lever I slowly worked the bead towards the rim, pulling from up under it and letting it settle right next to the rim side wall. Did this for about 2/3 or 3/4 until the tire was right.

Air it up and good to go!


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## 4-inch-or-more (Oct 24, 2015)

I've been running my BR2250's tubeless with 75mm nichiban tape for 3 months now.
No problems actually, but I can't help experimenting with other materials.
About a month ago I got my hands on 72mm 3M red sheeting tape, which I thought would work even better because it doesn't soak up any of the sealant.
3 wraps (only 28 grams) did the job just fine.
Haven't lost any pressure over the last 4 weeks now, not really long term experience but I have a good feeling about this tape.
Sorry about the crappy phone pics.


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## fotooutdoors (Jul 8, 2010)

Fwiw, I just removed my rear tire (putting on the wide ones for the winter) and that 3M red tape looked good after 4 months besides the end that was working up a bit. Since I did three wraps (one each side to the bead, then one down the center) I'm not concerned.

Typed on my phone. Pardon the autocorrect.


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## RockyJo1 (Jul 23, 2012)

Has anyone tried Plasti-Dip to seal their rims?


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## Shelterock (Apr 30, 2015)

Mulefut 80sl with tape and rim strip, stans valves and goo. Works very well. Held air with only small leak at valve stem without stans. Really easy to do and very lucky my bike came with these rims. Stans sealed the deal.
H


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## jbuzz229 (Nov 11, 2015)

Anyone on here set up Cooker Maxi with stock rims tubeless? Specifically with a Nate or BFL? I am hoping to go the Gorilla tape route but looking for some guidance.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

A small lesson learned from the fatty stripper tubeless video. I've had issues with all my tubeless valves leaking a little, Stan's, WTB, etc., until sealant finally sealed them up. What's happening is this...tubeless valves are typically designed to work with a taller profile, double walled rim. Single walled fatbike rims are very thin (relatively speaking) and you run out of threads on the valve before you can get it completely snugged down and sealed. Since I've added as small spacer below the valve nut, not a single leak, and you can tell immediately that it is a stronger seat. No minor wiggling when hooking up a pump head. Doubling up the presta washer won't work, it has to be a larger ID than the valve threads.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

American Classic valve stems work well...12-15 smackers a pair.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

I like those.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

watermonkey said:


> A small lesson learned from the fatty stripper tubeless video. I've had issues with all my tubeless valves leaking a little, Stan's, WTB, etc., until sealant finally sealed them up. What's happening is this...tubeless valves are typically designed to work with a taller profile, double walled rim. Single walled fatbike rims are very thin (relatively speaking) and you run out of threads on the valve before you can get it completely snugged down and sealed. Since I've added as small spacer below the valve nut, not a single leak, and you can tell immediately that it is a stronger seat. No minor wiggling when hooking up a pump head. Doubling up the presta washer won't work, it has to be a larger ID than the valve threads.


Interesting. I've used two different types of tubeless valves on my Clownshoes (Stan's and WTB) and haven't had any problem with running out of threads before they were tight. Maybe the Clowshoes are just a little thicker than others? You can always pick up some rubber o-rings from just about any hardwear store and put them on the valves if you're finding it to be a continuing problem.

Gotta say, I'm stoked on the tape job I did on those 'shoes - swapped out tires the other day, and they did the customary weeping the first night, and then haven't leaked at all since. I had a few people advise me that the tape method was a mistake, but after 6mos. with zero issues, I'm sold on it.


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## SimonsJ (Apr 23, 2011)

I've tried the American Classic style valves on FatBike rims and had lots of issues. The o-ring pulls into the hole and then one side leaks... plus, the threads stop before you can get them tight on single wall rims.

Look at the FattyStripper.com tubeless valves. They have been tested on 10 different models of FatBike wheels with 100% success. You can get them from other sources as well... but look at the base profile and the distance from the seat to the last thread.

Orange Seal valves failed too...

Hope that helps.


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## SimonsJ (Apr 23, 2011)

Smithhammer said:


> Interesting. I've used two different types of tubeless valves on my Clownshoes (Stan's and WTB) and haven't had any problem with running out of threads before they were tight. Maybe the Clowshoes are just a little thicker than others? You can always pick up some rubber o-rings from just about any hardwear store and put them on the valves if you're finding it to be a continuing problem.
> 
> Gotta say, I'm stoked on the tape job I did on those 'shoes - swapped out tires the other day, and they did the customary weeping the first night, and then haven't leaked at all since. I had a few people advise me that the tape method was a mistake, but after 6mos. with zero issues, I'm sold on it.


I don't recommend O-Rings... they shift to one side and squeeze through. A simple piece of old tube is all you need and it works bulletproof.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

SimonsJ said:


> I don't recommend O-Rings... they shift to one side and squeeze through. A simple piece of old tube is all you need and it works bulletproof.


Cool. Never used them myself, and I've never found a need to.


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## SimonsJ (Apr 23, 2011)

4-inch-or-more said:


> I've been running my BR2250's tubeless with 75mm nichiban tape for 3 months now.
> No problems actually, but I can't help experimenting with other materials.
> About a month ago I got my hands on 72mm 3M red sheeting tape, which I thought would work even better because it doesn't soak up any of the sealant.
> 3 wraps (only 28 grams) did the job just fine.
> ...


Quick question about your BR2250 rims... Do they have the same 10 holes right out at the bead as the Specialized OEM version of these rims?

Did you have any issues with the thickness of the tape causing an issue for the tire not being able to seat completely? I could only use one thickness of tape before that became an issue (with Specialized Ground Control 4.6). The tape failed for me after 3-4 months... but I only did one wrap up each bead shoulder and one down the center. That was the last tape job before coming up with the FattyStripper latex solution.


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## fagro (Jan 11, 2010)

It's not Tuesday, but went tubeless anyway. 
Q tubes split tube/Stans on a stock Fatboy. 
So far so good. Holding at 18 psi overnight.


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## 4-inch-or-more (Oct 24, 2015)

SimonsJ said:


> Quick question about your BR2250 rims... Do they have the same 10 holes right out at the bead as the Specialized OEM version of these rims?
> 
> Did you have any issues with the thickness of the tape causing an issue for the tire not being able to seat completely? I could only use one thickness of tape before that became an issue (with Specialized Ground Control 4.6). The tape failed for me after 3-4 months... but I only did one wrap up each bead shoulder and one down the center. That was the last tape job before coming up with the FattyStripper latex solution.


I don't know the Specialized rims, but the BR2250 has 2 little 4mm holes you have to tape over before going tubeless.
I also wrapped the 3M tape 1x up each bead + 1x round the center but haven't lost any air yet.
On my front wheel I used the much thicker Nichiban tape and wrapped it 2 times up each bead, no issues seating the 4.0 Jumbo Jims. I do see a little unbalance in that front tire, but I believe that it is due to the Jumbo Jim itself, because it is evenly seated over the entire outline. (sorry for the crappy english, european here)


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## SimonsJ (Apr 23, 2011)

Thanks. Your English is better than my American. When my tape was too thick, I had the tire imbalance problem but you could see the slight variation at the bead to see that the tire didn't quite push all the way out in one spot.


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## 4-inch-or-more (Oct 24, 2015)

SimonsJ said:


> Thanks. Your English is better than my American. When my tape was too thick, I had the tire imbalance problem but you could see the slight variation at the bead to see that the tire didn't quite push all the way out in one spot.


Have you tried applying some windex when trying to seat the tire? Or maybe temporarily using higher pressure to seat the tire all the way. (risky though)

I know that tubeless tape all the way up the bead is the safest solution, but I've run quite some miles on tubeless wheels without taping all the way up there. You might need something stickier then the red 3M tape though, or an extra wrap around.


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## SimonsJ (Apr 23, 2011)

4-inch-or-more said:


> Have you tried applying some windex when trying to seat the tire? Or maybe temporarily using higher pressure to seat the tire all the way. (risky though)
> 
> I know that tubeless tape all the way up the bead is the safest solution, but I've run quite some miles on tubeless wheels without taping all the way up there. You might need something stickier then the red 3M tape though, or an extra wrap around.


I think its an informational discussion and good to understand... but at this point, there are much better tapes out there than gorilla or scotch duct tape and I wouldn't use any tape at all, but I'm biased. Hundreds of wheels have been made tubeless with the FattyStripper latex band in a fraction of the time or cost than the old taping methods. The FattyStripper's thickness was engineered to be thick enough for durability and thin enough to never bind a tire during the seating process. For loose rims... the round foam rods under the latex right at the bead shoulders make crappy rims bomb-proof.... and seat-able with a floor pump. One of the tricks is to use a thicker lubricant (like vaseline or white grease) to help make the seal and get the tire to seat with much less force. The rim should never see a pressure higher than 20 psi... because that is literally tons of force and they were not designed for that. Most tires seat at 10-12 psi... no problem.

Watch the install and teardown videos and you'll see why using a latex band with latex sealant works so well. FattyStripper Tubeless Fat Bike Solutions

To be clear... our nordic club developed the FattyStripper to get riders to roll with lower air pressure. Any profits from the product go 100% into trail grooming. We are biased about our solution, but the results justify our pride in it.


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## jbuzz229 (Nov 11, 2015)

There may be a post for this somewhere else, but has anyone tried converting the stock wheels on a Cooker Maxi to tubeless? I was planning on using gorilla tape around the rim strip. Not sure if anyone here has any experience doing that and using a compressor to inflate.


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## Dilligaff (Nov 19, 2015)

Keeping the thread alive.

I have always used Gorilla tape with good results, but realize the Stans does affect it some on the edges.

Somewhere on here someone mentioned using Zip Flashing tape from Lowe's, so I bought a roll. I was going to use the SunRingle tape from Bikeman but the price scared me away for how little there was on the roll. The Zip tape is the same price but you get a ton of it, like it'll probably go bad on the roll before I get a chance to use it.

I love the Zip tape, it's more flexible, lighter, and tougher than the Gorilla tape. I did one wrap, used a knife to cut to width while on the rim, then used an old TDI glow plug to burn the proper size hole for the American Classic stems below, which I have used for a long time and work well. I could not get the Nates to seat with the compressor so I used a tube to seat the beads and then removed it. They held air for 2 days with no Stans needed but I put in 3 oz before going on a ride anyway.

Now the Gorilla tape is relegated to regular Duct tape status.


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## lwkwafi (Jan 29, 2006)

Whoa, nice! I like how wide it is, as you don't get that impression from the Lowes link. 
My fat caad came with the sun ringle tape already on it, so I didn't want to pop it off to change the rim strip color for fear of having to pay a lot for the re-tape. 
This gives me a little solace that I can add some flare now.


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## Dilligaff (Nov 19, 2015)

I just did some math and here is the result:

Gorilla Tape: 2 9/16" wide = 65.09mm; 12" section weighs 10.1671g for a square mm weight of 0.5125 mg/mm2.

(Work with me here, I run a laboratory and geek out occasionally)

Zip tape: 3 3/4" wide = 95.25mm; 12" section weighs 8.4327g for a square mm weight of 0.2905 mg/mm2

So the Zip tape is 46% larger and weighs 56% as much.

That puts a single 80mm strip that is one circumference around a 26" wheel (2,074.7mm) at:

85.1g for the Gorilla tape
48.2g for the Zip tape

I know the Mulefut is less than 80mm wide but didn't measure it when I had the tires off. I weighed before and after the Zip tape added about 30g to the wheel as measured on a Park scale. Of course, that is not calibrated to NIST traceable standards, but it's close enough for our cares.


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## racefit (Aug 26, 2010)

Wide enough for Clown Shoes?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Dilligaff said:


> I just did some math and here is the result:
> 
> Gorilla Tape: 2 9/16" wide = 65.09mm; 12" section weighs 10.1671g for a square mm weight of 0.5125 mg/mm2.
> 
> ...


Pfft.

Glad you said occasionally.

Don't come round here rockin ya armchair guestimate 4 dp's. Ya should know we work wit nuttin less dan 6 dp's ! 
Dat's how we roll round deez parts son. :ciappa: :arf:

P.S. You have far too much spare time on your hands fella PMSL but keep it up pls .  :thumbsup:

P.P.S. I also like to geek 

Fat Biker


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

UPDATE: I'm not sold on the effectiveness of the Gorilla Clear Repair Tape. The rear wheel is experiencing air leakage near the valve stem. I'll continue to shake the wheel in desperation but I think I may need to use different tape.

This has been such a helpful thread that I thought I'd share my procedure that I used for going tubeless with my wife's Specialized Fatboy.

Materials/parts I used:

Surly rim strips. We wanted orange because it looks good on the bike.
Gorilla clear repair tape. I've never used this to seal a rim but I've read good reviews and it seems like a good fit.
V Snowshoe XL (studded). The writing on the tire says they are tubeless ready and the bead looks good.
 WTB brass TCS valves.
 Stans no-tubes sealant (roughly 4 oz per tire).

Tools:

Air compressor with an air nozzle.
100 ml syringe and some vinyl tubing to fit over the valve stem.
Valve core removal tool.
A nail and a lighter to burn the valve hole in tape.
Scissors.
Rubbing alcohol and paper towels.

Procedure:

Remove tires/tubes from the wheels (kinda goes without saying...). In my case I was also replacing the rim strip so I went ahead and removed those as well. 
Clean all debris from the rims and then wipe the inside of the rims down with a paper towel dabbed in rubbing alcohol. Let it dry. This helps the tape adhere to the rim.
Install new rim strip.
We're going to be applying 3 separate wraps of tape. The first wrap starts at the left edge of the rim, the second wrap starts at the right edge, and the third wrap is right down the middle of the rim to seal everything up. It's especially important with the Fatboy rims to make sure that your tape is covering the little round holes found at the edge of the rims. 








Make a hole in the tape where the valve will pass through. I used a bolt heated by a lighter because I'm classy.







At this point I install a tube and the tire and air it up to around 10psi. This helps to smooth out and adhere the tape more firmly to the rim and also helps by seating the tire onto the rim. Later you only need to unseat one bead to remove the tube. I'll let this tire sit with the tube inside while I prepare the other wheel.
Remove the tube from the tire.
Install the tubeless valve and make sure it's seated tightly.







Remove the valve core from the tubeless valve and inject sealant. I use a small vinyl tube attached to the valve to do this.







I now use the compressor to blow air into the valve. Inflate the tire until you see and hear the tire beads pop onto the rim. You should hear two pops (one for each side of the rim).
Install the tubeless valve core and inflate the tire to desired pressure. At this point you can also shake the wheels around in an attempt to spread the sealant.
Admire your work.








If the tires are flat tomorrow morning I'll update the thread with what went wrong, but they looked good after a few hours so I'm feeling pretty confident.


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

Update: eventually got it to seal up and here are my observations. 
-round/conical style tubeless valves don't seal well on the Fatboy rims. Next time I'll go with the American Classic style. 
-ended up using Gorilla duct tape. I know it's not ideal but it seals better than the clear repair tape. When I redo the setup in the Spring I'll use a latex exercise band.


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## RGarofalo (Nov 10, 2015)

One thing I used on my fatboy rim was I cut some old tube and put the stans valve through that then put it in the rim


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SimonsJ (Apr 23, 2011)

Aceldama said:


> Update: eventually got it to seal up and here are my observations.
> -round/conical style tubeless valves don't seal well on the Fatboy rims. Next time I'll go with the American Classic style.
> -ended up using Gorilla duct tape. I know it's not ideal but it seals better than the clear repair tape. When I redo the setup in the Spring I'll use a latex exercise band.


I feel your pain with the tape...

I've tested the American Classic style valve... its not really possible. Most do not have threads that go all the way to the base. Conical valves tend not to seal well because they run out of threads. Most valves are simply not designed for the single wall rims. Check out the install video for FattyStripper and look at the simple "gasket" recommended when using conical valves. Also, FattyStripper valves ship with a nylon spacer to allow for the base to pull through the rim and still leave threads for the locknut... plus, those valves give you almost 2x the width locknut so that your gloved hand can still tighten it if it works loose. The newest FattyStripper valves use a rectangular base with a shorter taper & threads all the way into the base. Works like a champ...


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

Good advice, thanks. 

I'll redo it in the Spring. It is holding air now but I'll never be happy with it knowing it could be lighter/better.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

I used rubber grommets in place of the O rings on the American Classic valve stems without issue on my Rolling Darryl's. Just a minor adjustment and the mouse trap works well. 
There is a nice selection of stems in presta as well as schrader through Speed Evolution in groovy colors as well.
Orange 38mm Alloy Tubeless Valve Stems

Red Schrader Valve

Hell, this may just fuel the fire of schrader vs. presta...

As for the valve hole, one of these is the cat's meow.
Axent Knife | X-ACTO #1 Colored Artistic Cutting Knife


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I did finally have a little leakage on my rear wheel with the gorilla tape, the tire was mostly dry inside too, but I suspected it was. Even past the leakage it was surprisingly dry with no sealant ruining everywhere. Removing the tape wasn't bad. I was afraid it would be "dried" to the rim, but it wasn't. This is after about 15 months, so not bad. I'm trying the Tyvek tape now, but I'd be ok re-doing the gorilla. I'm better at taping now, so could be a fluke (and my front wheel is going strong).


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## RolfM (Nov 3, 2015)

My contribution to this thread is a new way how to make a tubeless setup for fatbike rim.
I made a short video which explain everything. Basically you make a plastic rim strip from vacuum tube.






Rolf, 
Finland


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

For the Zip tape - how many layers?

If I have a 100mm rim for a Mongoose Vinson, do I leave the existing rim strip in place and then put Zip tape over it?


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## Dilligaff (Nov 19, 2015)

rsilvers said:


> For the Zip tape - how many layers?
> 
> If I have a 100mm rim for a Mongoose Vinson, do I leave the existing rim strip in place and then put Zip tape over it?


I used one wrap and left a rim strip in place. Works great.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Jayem said:


> I did finally have a little leakage on my rear wheel with the gorilla tape, the tire was mostly dry inside too, but I suspected it was. Even past the leakage it was surprisingly dry with no sealant ruining everywhere. Removing the tape wasn't bad. I was afraid it would be "dried" to the rim, but it wasn't. This is after about 15 months, so not bad. I'm trying the Tyvek tape now, but I'd be ok re-doing the gorilla. I'm better at taping now, so could be a fluke (and my front wheel is going strong).


The rims are wide, so last night I made one pass on each side, which overlaps about 1cm in the middle. Put a tube in it overnight, set it this morning.

Held up for our super-D downhill race I just did and if anything was going to cause trouble, I would have thought this would have. Nice. I do like this Tyvek tape.


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

I talked to the bike shop owner that is very well regarded in my area. I asked if he had tubes for the split-tube process. He said there is no reason to use the split-tube process and has not been for 1/2 a dozen years. He said it is needlessly ghetto and was pretty much one-time use if you ever take the tire off. He uses Zip tape (from Lowes) for 100mm rims, and said that was the way to go and that he has never failed to get it to work on any rim and with any tire, even if the tires and/or rims are not tubeless-ready.

Said to seat one bead with a tube and then pull the tube out, remove valve-core, and use compressor to blow in air faster. You can also wrap a band around the tire to push the sides out.

I was tempted to buy Clear Scotch Duct tape, as people have reported it working and it is 1/3 the price per roll compared to Zip tape. But I bought the Zip tape, and it is nice in that you can have it be seamless one pass. Also it is thin and light. Also it is rubbery goodness.

If you do use Duct tape, note that Scotch lists the strength and weather resistance on the label, and they have a premium one that is much higher spec.

I cleaned the rims with rubbing alcohol and took off my rim-strip and replaced it with one layer of purple duct-tape used backwards.

I put a wider layer on the rim's seam and used a solder iron for the stem hole. I burnished the edge with a Sharpie cap. One layer of Zip tape for me, though the top owner said to go higher on the sides. I found that too hard to do without ruining the tape job.


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## captnpenguin (Dec 2, 2011)

Does the Zip tape work on 80mm rims or only 100mm? I wanna convert my new My Other Brother Daryl rims as I just hate tubes and I don't trust lowering the pressure on my Nate's yet.


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

rsilvers, different strokes for different folks.. i always used split tube on my fatboy and has never failed on me almost 2 years now.. currently running fatty stripper on my rear and so far, it has it's potential...


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

Zip on an 80mm would just be trimmed with a razor after it is on. But in my limited experience, that is hard to wrap up the side without a wrinkled mess. So if I had 80mm I would probably use something less wide and do two loops.


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

av8or said:


> rsilvers, different strokes for different folks.. i always used split tube on my fatboy and has never failed on me almost 2 years now.. currently running fatty stripper on my rear and so far, it has it's potential...


The fact that you can put closed-cell foam under a split tube to close the gap and allow the sidewalls to push outward with a blast of air makes it very easy to seat tires that have a loose fit.

So in situations were the tire-to-rim fit is sloppy, then split-tube seems like the way to go. Foam uses up volume, the tube adds weight, and is hard to align if you later remove the tire - so it would be best to use tape if that is capable of working.

But I see some people doing split-tube without foam. If you are able to seat the tire without having the foam, then you probably could have gotten tape to work and had the benefits of tape.


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## captnpenguin (Dec 2, 2011)

rsilvers said:


> Zip on an 800mm would just be trimmed with a razor after it is on. But in my limited experience, that is hard to wrap up the side without a wrinkled mess. So if I had 80mm I would probably use something less wide and do two loops.


If I went with the gorilla tape do I want the regular or the heavy duty one?

"Buy the ticket. Take the ride." -Hunter S. Thompson
"Life is too important to be taken seriously." -Oscar Wilde
"Single speeds should come in cans" -Me


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Penguin, I remember the days of Hunter Thompson riding his horse into the Red Onion in Aspen, Got the sheriff's attention quite often...


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## captnpenguin (Dec 2, 2011)

I try to live like him every day. It's why I teach middle school


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## crashtestdummy (Jun 18, 2005)

I had a Bud and Lou set up split tube. It all worked well, no issues. I decided to save some weight, so I set them up with the Surly rim strip and Scotch duct tape. This also worked well. The only issues I had were when I let the sealant dry out. Bud and Lou were getting a little tired after 2 years, so I put on a new set. Front tire was good and sealed up. Back tire pretended it was good, but on the trail it kept puking Stans. I retaped the back wheel and now it refused to hold air. It kept leaking around the spoke. I did notice that the tape wasn't sticking real well to the Surly rim strip.

So I went back to split tube. Lots of sealant and air, but it just wouldn't seal at the bead.

So I decided F it all and I bought a FattyStripper kit. I had to really clean up my rims and tires, but they aired right up and there were zero leaks from the start. Successful ride on Saturday.

And a helpful hint here, don't google Fatty Stripper.


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

crashtestdummy said:


> I retaped the back wheel and now it refused to hold air. It kept leaking around the spoke. I did notice that the tape wasn't sticking real well to the Surly rim strip.


You can trim the rim strip to be more narrow, and then the tape can seal around them onto the rim. This is where the Zip tape would be better as it is 100mm wide and can't leak in the middle.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

crashtestdummy said:


> And a helpful hint here, don't google Fatty Stripper.


roflmao!!!


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## crashtestdummy (Jun 18, 2005)

rsilvers said:


> You can trim the rim strip to be more narrow, and then the tape can seal around them onto the rim. This is where the Zip tape would be better as it is 100mm wide and can't leak in the middle.


The Surly rim strips are a bad choice for tubeless in my opinion. They are plastic, so they don't have as much memory as anything elastic, and they stretch more than anything non-elastic. As soon as they deform, it becomes very difficult to adhere to them.

They can also be very hard on the eardrums.


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

How I made this tubeless:

Clean rims and tires with rubbing alcohol.

Seal the seam on the rim with a small strip of tape.

Make a rim strip with backwards purple duct tape. If you leave the rim strip, trim it to about 2 inches wide so the tape can seal over it.



















One layer of Zip tape is perfect to seal 100mm rims.

Then two layers of sill-seal. I tried 0 and 1 layer. Neither worked.

Owens Corning Foam SealR Sill Plate Gasket 5-1/2 in. x 50 ft.-2FS - The Home Depot










Then a second layer of Zip.










Make stem hole with solder iron or hot nail.


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## mix123 (Sep 2, 2015)

Looks heavy?

Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

My tube was 365 grams.

This is ~27 grams for the two layers of foam, and ~112 for the two layers of tape - so about 140 grams. That is a savings of 220 grams, or a break even with 8 oz of sealant.

In any case, tubeless is not about weight, it is about being able to tell everyone that you are tubeless, and avoiding the indignity of having to say that you have tubes.


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## crashtestdummy (Jun 18, 2005)

rsilvers said:


> my tube was 365 grams.
> 
> This is ~27 grams for the two layers of foam, and ~112 for the two layers of tape - so about 140 grams. That is a savings of 220 grams, or a break even with 8 oz of sealant.
> 
> *in any case, tubeless is not about weight, it is about being able to tell everyone that you are tubeless, and avoiding the indignity of having to say that you have tubes*.


ftw.


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## Dilligaff (Nov 19, 2015)

captnpenguin said:


> Does the Zip tape work on 80mm rims or only 100mm? I wanna convert my new My Other Brother Daryl rims as I just hate tubes and I don't trust lowering the pressure on my Nate's yet.


Works perfectly. Stretch it somewhat tight before trimming and there won't be any wrinkles.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

rsilvers said:


> In any case, tubeless is not about weight, it is about being able to tell everyone that you are tubeless, and avoiding the indignity of having to say that you have tubes.


never a truer word spoken


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## SimonsJ (Apr 23, 2011)

rsilvers said:


> In any case, tubeless is not about weight, it is about being able to tell everyone that you are tubeless, and avoiding the indignity of having to say that you have tubes.


Best quote in the thread!

Enjoy being tubeless... eliminating the tube & tire rolling resistance is what matters most. Reducing weight is just a bonus.

Putting a big rubber band around the rim eliminates all seams (even that expensive zip tape has a seam for the alcohol in the sealant to work at) and is way cheaper. Why not use FattyStripper & be done for 1/2 the work, weight & cost?


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

My tires held air all night at 18 psi (just to let them seat). I lowered them to 5 psi and road it today and had seepage. I am 144 lbs.

I have a theory that the tire bead is larger diameter than my rim seat. I know this because if I let all the air out, the tires out just fall off the rims and do not stay locked to the rim like one would expect. This was true on my Vee Tire Mission 4.0 as well as these new Kenda Pro 4.5s (which are sold as tubeless-ready, so I blame the rims).

This leads me to think that these will never coagulate up, and I will always have leakage unless I stay at well over 5 psi, which is unacceptable.

The only solutions I can think of are moving to a split tube, or giving up and going back to tubes.

Who has run into my exact problem and what do you think I should do?


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## HotHead (Feb 24, 2015)

Don't give up on tubeless. You're doing ok so far. Somewhere on here (this forum) they were saying you have to ride it a bit then air it back up and you should be good to go. Look around and you'll find it. sorry, I tried but can't find it right now.


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

I have a question about the soapy water spray that is recommended to help tires snap up on the rim. Won't that make the sealant less likely to stick to the rubber and rim?

I didn't use it by the way, because I was concerned.


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

If you suspect the bead shelf is too small of a diameter for the tire, then build up the shelf. Couple wraps of tape on the shelf or a split tube would build it up. Never hurt to try.


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

Ok. The bike shop owner actually told me to cover the shelf with the tape. I skipped that as the tape got all wrinkly when I tried it going over the edge.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

rsilvers said:


> Ok. The bike shop owner actually told me to cover the shelf with the tape. I skipped that as the tape got all wrinkly when I tried it going over the edge.


Are you using the really wide tape? If so, it can be done but is challenging. If you are using the tape that only goes part way across the rim, it's a bit easier to gitter dun. Start with clean rims and tape. I use acetone on a lint free cloth to wipe down the rim and tape that will show through the rim holes. It's easiest if the rims are nice and warm as well as the roll 'o tape. Start by butting the edge of the tape to the edge of the rim flange. Work 6-8" around the rim keeping the tape butted to the rim flange. Then, begin to squeegee the tape at the starting point with your grubby lil' thumb and work your way toward the center of the rim. continue to work your way along the area you have already begun the tape. As you get close to where you stopped sticking tape to the flange of the rim, continue to butt and stick the tape along the flange of the rim and go back to continue squeegeeing the tape to the center of the rim. I realize that it takes time to do it this way, though it has been very reliable for me with no wrinkles to make probable nuisance leaks in the future.

When I did the tape routine the first time, I had sealant ooze on every ride till I retaped right to the flange of the rim. I'm using HRD's with Bud/Lou or my D5's with one wrap of tape without burping or oozing tire syrup. Pressures 2-8 psi, depending on conditions present. FWIW, I weigh 160#'s.

The method above requires the rim to have a UST style beadseat...


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## baltobrewer (Apr 22, 2015)

It was FattyStripper FTW for me. I was trying to seat Panaracer FBNs onto Surly HRDs (not a good combo), and I went through gorilla tape, ratchet straps, soap spray etc. before I threw on a set of FSs. It was that or go split tube, and I figured I'd give them a shot. Done and dusted in about 20 minutes, and nary a burp since. Rode them this weekend at 3-4 psi on hard rooty rock garden stuff here in PA and all remains copacetic. I think I actually spent less on them than I did on all the tape/goop/crap I used before. I did a writeup on the FattyStripper thread earlier if you want to check it out. Just my .02, works for me.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

rsilvers said:


> My tube was 365 grams.
> 
> This is ~27 grams for the two layers of foam, and ~112 for the two layers of tape - so about 140 grams. That is a savings of 220 grams, or a break even with 8 oz of sealant.


What's the point of using foam with the tape method? I've never understood the need for it, nor have I had my tape-tubeless setup fail without it.



> In any case, tubeless is not about weight, it is about being able to tell everyone that you are tubeless, and avoiding the indignity of having to say that you have tubes.


_Right..._


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

True. If you have tires and rims that need foam, might as well have done split tube. It is just that I bought all this stuff without knowing I would end up needing foam. 

I took off a tire, and wrapped four layers of electrical tape over the bead shelf. I remounted the tire with no sealant and inflated to 20 psi. This time I heard the two loud pops as it snapped into place. So yeah, undersized rim or oversized tire. Probably the rim. 

Two layers of this electrical tape is 0.015 thick. So I am probably adding almost 0.030"

This should work well now. But as was just posted, I should have butted two sides of narrower tape on each edge. But this Zip tape is 96mm wide.


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

Smithhammer said:


> What's the point of using foam with the tape method? I've never understood the need for it, nor have I had my tape-tubeless setup fail without it.


Foam plays no role in making tubeless not fail. It serves no purpose once the tire is mounted. What foam does is allow you to inflate the tire the first time by blocking off the gaps between the tire and rim just until the tire is seated on the bead-shelf. The foam plays no role after that.

If you didn't need foam, it just means that you have a really good air compressor setup, or someone to help you, or you got the bead to lock with a tube, and then removed the tube, or you wrapped a belt around the tire to help seal it, etc. Since I was not able to lock one side of the bead with a tube, I resorted to foam.

Now that my bead locks since I built up my shelf, it is possible that I don't need foam.


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

What do you think of split-tube with tubular cement to hold the tube in place so that you can later remount the tire?


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

rsilvers said:


> If you didn't need foam, it just means that you have a really good air compressor setup...


Nothing special, just a run of the mill compressor.



> or someone to help you...


Nope.



> or you got the bead to lock with a tube, and then removed the tube...


Yup. This has always worked for me.

I was just curious if there was something I was missing. I agree the weight savings are minimal to non-existent when you add things like foam or split tube into the mix. But the 'nothing but tape and a compressor' approach has always worked well for me, and if/when you keep the conversion that minimal, the weight savings actually do add up to something.


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

If I were instructing my past self, I would say to "First put in a tube, and see if you get a good pop bead-locking sound. If not, then your rim is under-sized, and you must build it up with multiple layers of tape."


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

rsilvers said:


> If I were instructing my past self, I would say to "First put in a tube, and see if you get a good pop bead-locking sound. If not, then your rim is under-sized, and you must build it up with multiple layers of tape."


Yup.

When doing tape setups these days, I like to leave the tube in overnight at room temp. Helps with the bead seal (at least on one side) and it also really helps with smoothing out the tape and improving adhesion, at least in my experience.


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## rsilvers (Aug 23, 2015)

So currently it looks like they both hold air when sitting there, but I went for a ride and the front dropped pressure and I see sealant leaking from the rim/tire. If I push on the sidewall at 6psi, it pushes in and sealant leaks out. So maybe my bead-seat is too small a diameter still. I am thinking I should either change to split-tube or put in tubes and give up.

Even if I go with split tube, I am not sure the tube will be thick enough to build up the shelf. How thick are stretched-out 24 inch tubes? Anyone measured them with calipers?

Questions - can I expect a split-tube to be reliable down to about 3 psi with a 144 lb rider?

How low can I go on psi in the snow and not likely get pinch flats?

How low can I go in the summer on rocks and not likely get pinch flats?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Try riding them awhile at whatever pressure it takes to get the beads to quit weeping, then back off to where you need to be. You might need to use tubes and sealant to hold the tire on and seal pinches at really low psi.


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## andy b. (Sep 7, 2010)

rsilvers said:


> So currently it looks like they both hold air when sitting there, but I went for a ride and the front dropped pressure and I see sealant leaking from the rim/tire. If I push on the sidewall at 6psi, it pushes in and sealant leaks out. So maybe my bead-seat is too small a diameter still. I am thinking I should either change to split-tube or put in tubes and give up.
> 
> Even if I go with split tube, I am not sure the tube will be thick enough to build up the shelf. How thick are stretched-out 24 inch tubes? Anyone measured them with calipers?
> 
> ...


I weigh as much as you and when the split tubes seal, they work fine. I have two sets of tires for my Pugs, both sets split tube. On one rear tire I have a Nate mounted, and no matter what methods I try, it still only holds air for about 2 days at most. I bought the latex liquid to try and seal the tire to the split tube, but haven't had a chance to try it yet.

I don't have a low pressure tire gauge, but my normal gauge reads 0 psi half the time when I'm riding, so I'd say you can go pretty darn low. For rocks, it depends on how aggressive you are. But I will say, running ultra-low pressure for normal summer trail riding seems too low for me. The tires really show their squirrelliness and wander all over.


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## SimonsJ (Apr 23, 2011)

rsilvers said:


> Foam plays no role in making tubeless not fail. It serves no purpose once the tire is mounted. What foam does is allow you to inflate the tire the first time by blocking off the gaps between the tire and rim just until the tire is seated on the bead-shelf. The foam plays no role after that.


That is true for some rims. Rims with truly inadequate bead shoulders benefit after inflation as burp insurance when using a rimstrip with elastic properties like split tube or FattyStripper. The type and thickness of foam matters & needs to match how much the rim needs to be built up... taking into account how much the foam compresses under 5 psi load. For example, the original Turnagain wheels needed 5/8 foam rods while Weimann rims need 3/8.

It does make a difference... after inflation when rolling low pressure.


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## Aly (Sep 14, 2015)

Rim strip for tubeless setup!
I tired to go tubeless by keeping the stock bike rim strip and using a layer of tape to seal it.
It leaked air from the cutout holes as the rim strip is not adhesive to the rim and lets air leakfrom under it.

Can I simply remove the rim strip and apply a round of tape directly to the rim ?
Do I risk the tape to bulge from the cutout holes ?


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

Aly said:


> Rim strip for tubeless setup!
> I tired to go tubeless by keeping the stock bike rim strip and using a layer of tape to seal it.
> It leaked air from the cutout holes as the rim strip is not adhesive to the rim and lets air leakfrom under it.
> 
> ...


The rims strip is 50% decoration, 50% function to keep your airtight system from bulging out.

The airtight system needs to be continuous from bead shelf to bead shelf. You can use one material to bridge the gap or 20, as long as it is airtight. If you just use tape the sticky side will be showing through the cutouts. People usually cover it by leaving some sort of strip in place.


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

@ALY-:

Tape no matter how sticky does not stick to certain things. I could see very easily how a rough patterned Surly rimstrip which is what I happen to have would not be conducive to holding a tight seal with tape.

If on the other hand you had a smooth strips the tape might stick.

I am also interested in this as I am looking at going tubeless and thinking how I can ditch the rimstrip (save as much weight as possible) and see if the tape will hold. There is a video on youtube where a guy replaces the strip with a reversed layer of coloured duct tape, which I think interfaced with the next layer of G-tape should be pretty strong against Air pressure but enough to get the bead to seat?


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## Aly (Sep 14, 2015)

bme107 said:


> The rims strip is 50% decoration, 50% function to keep your airtight system from bulging out.
> 
> The airtight system needs to be continuous from bead shelf to bead shelf. You can use one material to bridge the gap or 20, as long as it is airtight. If you just use tape the sticky side will be showing through the cutouts. People usually cover it by leaving some sort of strip in place.


Thanks for the help
I know Gorilla tape is tough enough not to bulge out. Do you know if a PVC tape is strong enough too ?

My rim is 50mm which is the same size as most tapes (lucky me) so only one round is needed.

My previous attempt was leaking because I did not have enough adhesive surface space at the bead shelf. So I want to try remove any non-adhesive layer
If the sticky side shows through the holes will it collect dirt or break the adhesion ?

I want to see if PVC tape will work before going Gorilla as it is more waterproof and will soak the sealant


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## Aly (Sep 14, 2015)

@Nick Bain
I do not care much about decoration and would ideally prefer a single layer of tape to maximize the adhesive surface area to the rim.
I will try PVC tape and experiment then try the Gorilla tape.
PVC tape (if it worked and did not bulge out) will be better water proof and will not soak the sealant


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

Me neither, it would just be something to hide the sticky side so it doesn't pick up debris. PVC tape is strong and doesn't flex much so I think it would work. but all it takes is one little poke to rip it, I assume your taking about packing tape. They also have gorilla in clear. How does it soak up the sealant? Not sure I believe that.

What rims do you have? I have the darryls and the surface coating is not smooth like a polished rims, so I think I will need the G-tape with its thick goey layer of adhesive.


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

There are many different tapes that work, if you've got it on hand try it.

Sticky through the holes will pick up dirt. Will it break adhesion, maybe, but your tape is now bead to bead which is clamped down by the tire sealing the system. Doesn't really matter at that point if the rest of the tape is stuck to the rim or not. It's the same principle as why split-tube system works.

Run a narrow strip along the lower channel, sticky side up, slightly wider than the cut outs. Then your 2nd layer bead to bead sticky side down.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Or the tire you are trying to use in a tubeless application is oversized.

For instance, on a Marge Lite, the JJ's pop quite nicely and have a consistent bead placement on all sides, but a Floater is quite loose even with a build up and is not ideal for tubeless.

So why doesn't someone make a rim strip with a built in valve that is strong enough to prevent collapse in the cut outs, yet flexible enough to maintain a bead seal?

Has anyone tried rubberized tape to seal a ream strip? 3M makes some interesting tapes, I've used them on WW paddles for friction at the grips.

Here's an interesting one: Frequently Asked Questions



rsilvers said:


> If I were instructing my past self, I would say to "First put in a tube, and see if you get a good pop bead-locking sound. If not, then your rim is under-sized, and you must build it up with multiple layers of tape."


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

Now that we have fatty stripper which is pretty light, can we start talking about which setup is the lightest? Assuming you don't have to use foam and gobs of tape, just one layer.

So bascially Fatty stripper vs Tape?

and no im not interested in labor intensive tyvek or ironing and excessive trimming.


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

Nurse Ben said:


> So why doesn't someone make a rim strip with a built in valve that is strong enough to prevent collapse in the cut outs, yet flexible enough to maintain a bead seal?


In my mind you are describing split tube.


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

That and your asking it to do two things. 1 seal and 2 stiff enough not to collapse. Its likely possible but I would predict expensive and probably not save any weight over the rim strip and tape system. Starting with a tubeless rim to begin with eliminates a lot of issues but clearly there are many who prefer to re engineer their wheels to save money. Can't have it all.


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## Aly (Sep 14, 2015)

plumping Duck Tape vs. Gorilla Tape under water pressure
Gorilla tape is just not the best for wet applications


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## Aly (Sep 14, 2015)

It seems people on MTBR forum has been using the PVC pipe wrap tape before the age of the FAT bike
http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/ghetto-tubeless-how-worth-az-420661.html#post4538699

If it is strong enough it might not bulge out from the cutout holes.


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## Fat&SkinnyCO (Nov 23, 2014)

*Custom black, "light weight", rim strips*

Problem 1: Heavy tubeless setup with Gorilla tape, black Gorilla tape for rim strip.

Solution 1: FattyStripper latex band with stock Specialized Fatboy rim strip. The FattyStripper Stealth rim strip weighs 150g while the stock Fatboy rim strip weighs 111g (this weight data is from the FattyStripper website).

Problem 2: The stock Fatboy rim strip is white.

Solution 2: First I tried dying it without success. I then cut open a sharpie and colored the rim strip. Break open the Sharpie, remove the core (similar to a cigarette filter), cut it open lengthwise, wipe the core on the rim strip. Make sure to use gloves!!


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

^^^ first of all.. Why?









You can get a surly black rim strip if black is your preference and you don't want to tape over.. That thing is so hideous, that color will definitely fade.. But anyway.. Your bike.. Whatever makes you happy..


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Set up my new Mulefüt/D5 combo several days ago. First time I've ever been able to get a fattie rim/tire to seal up with just a floor pump, and they locked up tight as a drum. No leakage whatsoever since then, with several short rides over the last few days. Single wrap of Gorilla tape, pumped them up with a tube to 30psi and left them that way overnight, then pulled the tube out and pumped up. Added a couple oz. of Stan's. Piece of cake.


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## Aly (Sep 14, 2015)

Fat&SkinnyCO said:


> Problem 1: Heavy tubeless setup with Gorilla tape, black Gorilla tape for rim strip.
> 
> Solution 1: FattyStripper latex band with stock Specialized Fatboy rim strip. The FattyStripper Stealth rim strip weighs 150g while the stock Fatboy rim strip weighs 111g (this weight data is from the FattyStripper website).
> 
> ...


Try use white PVC pipe wrap tape.
Same rim color. much lighter than gorilla and water proof.
Mine worked this way


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## Aly (Sep 14, 2015)

*PVC pipe wrap! remove any stock rim strip*

Ok so from a guy like you I tried a few times here is what i learned so far
I should remove any stock rim strip/tape (In my bike i removed a rubber strip and a kevlar strip)
Clean the bare metal rim or sand it lightly and have it nice and dry
Best is to use the adhesive sealing tape directly on the rim metal to maximize the adhesion surface
Gorilla is very strong but heavy and not water proof (soaks water and sealant)
PVC pipe wrap is much lighter water proof and strong enough to hold system air tight
Use one round or 2 if you are concerned and try to make it bubble free.
For better and easier adhesion inflate the inner tube back inside the tire to push the adhesive tape to the rim
You do not need to build up the valley (rim central channel depth) with foam or tape unless you want to use floor pump at home to inflate the rubelesss bike

To seat the bead you have to do the following.
use ratchet strap around the tire
use soapy water bubbles
use compressor

I did not use sealant yet and it not leaking at all from the rim edge or the cutout holes or spokes.
The only leak is from the welding line of the rim. The weld vent holes on in the rim inner edge used during manufacturing are connected to the rim joint seam.
Using tape on the seam line alone is not enough if these holes are venting air
Any idea on the best wayto seal it ? simply use tire sealant or silicone or super glue ?


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

Had to remove the tires to change direction from traction to cornering ( surly bud and lou).. After only one month of use, these are what the fatty strippers look like when i removed the tires from rims..


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Seeing this, do you think they're reuseable, and are you going to try?


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## av8or (Jun 9, 2013)

watermonkey said:


> Seeing this, do you think they're reuseable, and are you going to try?


nope... you could if you have the time, maybe.. if you could stretch and spray glue them back to the rim, but that's a big if.. i ordered 3 pairs of fatty strippers originally, for back up in case i mess up the install.. btw i used orange seal sealant..


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## ADKMTNBIKER (Nov 29, 2014)

If I'm trying to use split tube schrader valve, in a rim that has presta. should I need to drill out the hole? The rims on my 2015 Mayor have presta and schrader won't fit without a drill. Is this normal? Are there rims that are good for both?


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

Drilling the rim or rigging something up for it to exit through a cut-out is the only way.
There are no dual valve drilled rims. A rim with the larger hole will of course fit the smaller if you don't mind it wiggling around a bit.


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## j0hnj0hns (Dec 26, 2014)

So I scored some 3M 8898 tape for tubelessing up my mulefat rims and I'm having more trouble with this than I ever did with gorilla or the clear scotch tape. I cleaned the rim thoroughly with alcohol, pull the tape nice and tight (2 runs around both sides and 2 through the middle) and I still get air coming out some of the rim holes. This is the 2nd time I've tried. Last week it worked great initially but once I finished a big ride the air started pouring out through the rim holes again. Am I missing something?


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## RolfM (Nov 3, 2015)

Yes. You should forget the tapes. You don't need it at all. Use vacuum tube as a rim strip. It's becoming popular here in Finland. From youtube you can find a tutorial "super light rim strip for fatbike".


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## Dilligaff (Nov 19, 2015)

av8or said:


> ^^^ first of all.. Why?
> 
> You can get a surly black rim strip if black is your preference and you don't want to tape over.. That hat color will definitely fade.


I agree, the SunRingle strip is 1/3 the weight of most stock rim strips and even comes in black.

They cost about as much as a three pack of Sharpies.

I still prefer to use tape on mine since it's proven to work and I've never had an issue with it. I like the Zip tape.


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## Bumpyride (Jan 2, 2014)

ADKMTNBIKER said:


> If I'm trying to use split tube schrader valve, in a rim that has presta. should I need to drill out the hole? The rims on my 2015 Mayor have presta and schrader won't fit without a drill. Is this normal? Are there rims that are good for both?


You need to drill out the rim for the schraeder. There are bushings that allow you to use a presta in a schraeder hole with a tube.

http://www.amazon.com/Schrader-Pres...68&sr=8-1&keywords=schrader+to+presta+bushing


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## Bumpyride (Jan 2, 2014)

I know I'm repeating myself, but for those of you who haven't run across this on stretch wrap. I have wheelsets that I installed around 10 months ago that are still good to go with no problems. Unlike Fatty stripper (that I thought about using myself, but bailed because of changing tires), I could really care less about what happens to the stretch wrap when the tire comes off. It's a 10 minute process to install new stretch wrap and costs less than $.30 cents (US dollars), and flame retardant clothing is not required.

Tubeless With Stretch Wrap Slideshow by Bumpyride69 | Photobucket

BTW there are captions above each picture if you opt for that. Just move your cursor on the picture.


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## ADKMTNBIKER (Nov 29, 2014)

Bumpyride said:


> I know I'm repeating myself, but for those of you who haven't run across this on stretch wrap. I have wheelsets that I installed around 10 months ago that are still good to go with no problems. Unlike Fatty stripper (that I thought about using myself, but bailed because of changing tires), I could really care less about what happens to the stretch wrap when the tire comes off. It's a 10 minute process to install new stretch wrap and costs less than $.30 cents (US dollars), and flame retardant clothing is not required.
> 
> Tubeless With Stretch Wrap Slideshow by Bumpyride69 | Photobucket
> 
> BTW there are captions above each picture if you opt for that. Just move your cursor on the picture.


Thank for the detailed photos of this. I've been trying this method for the first time yesterday with no luck. I can see now where I went wrong. I'm going to try again. Did you use a tube to seat the tire bead?


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## ADKMTNBIKER (Nov 29, 2014)

ADKMTNBIKER said:


> Thank for the detailed photos of this. I've been trying this method for the first time yesterday with no luck. I can see now where I went wrong. I'm going to try again. Did you use a tube to seat the tire bead?


and what valve did you go with? It says shrader, but which brand? Thanks in advance. Looking forward to going tubeless.


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## crashtestdummy (Jun 18, 2005)

j0hnj0hns said:


> So I scored some 3M 8898 tape for tubelessing up my mulefat rims and I'm having more trouble with this than I ever did with gorilla or the clear scotch tape. I cleaned the rim thoroughly with alcohol, pull the tape nice and tight (2 runs around both sides and 2 through the middle) and I still get air coming out some of the rim holes. This is the 2nd time I've tried. Last week it worked great initially but once I finished a big ride the air started pouring out through the rim holes again. Am I missing something?


I used this tape successfully for about a year. When I changed tires I had nothing but problems with it. I even retaped to no success. I tried Fattystripper and instant success. No regrets.


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## ADKMTNBIKER (Nov 29, 2014)

Bumpyride said:


> I know I'm repeating myself, but for those of you who haven't run across this on stretch wrap. I have wheelsets that I installed around 10 months ago that are still good to go with no problems. Unlike Fatty stripper (that I thought about using myself, but bailed because of changing tires), I could really care less about what happens to the stretch wrap when the tire comes off. It's a 10 minute process to install new stretch wrap and costs less than $.30 cents (US dollars), and flame retardant clothing is not required.
> 
> Tubeless With Stretch Wrap Slideshow by Bumpyride69 | Photobucket
> 
> BTW there are captions above each picture if you opt for that. Just move your cursor on the picture.


also do you know the gauge of the wrap is or what kind it is?


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## Bumpyride (Jan 2, 2014)

ADKMTNBIKER said:


> and what valve did you go with? It says shrader, but which brand? Thanks in advance. Looking forward to going tubeless.


Valve Stem pair, schrader, 32mm, 14mm base


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## Bumpyride (Jan 2, 2014)

ADKMTNBIKER said:


> also do you know the gauge of the wrap is or what kind it is?


Picked up the stretch wrap at home depot for $9, will do somewhere around 17 or 18 tires.


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## Bumpyride (Jan 2, 2014)

ADKMTNBIKER said:


> Thank for the detailed photos of this. I've been trying this method for the first time yesterday with no luck. I can see now where I went wrong. I'm going to try again. Did you use a tube to seat the tire bead?


I did not use a tube, but I am on Mulefuts. You may have a different experience. I have used 5 different tires all without tubes to set. Floor pump seated all of them.


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## Bumpyride (Jan 2, 2014)

Best to use 3 pieces of inner tube between the schrader valve and the rim, to account for the shoulder on the valve.


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## ADKMTNBIKER (Nov 29, 2014)

Bumpyride said:


> Picked up the stretch wrap at home depot for $9, will do somewhere around 17 or 18 tires.


I just found this stuff. One person on the HD site gave it bad reviews and suggested this stuff. https://www.uhaul.com/MovingSupplies/Protective-stuff/Movers-Stretch-Plastic-Wrap?mid=102


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## ADKMTNBIKER (Nov 29, 2014)

Are there rims that just can't be made into tubeless? Doesn't seem so with the split tube or zip tape method.


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## j0hnj0hns (Dec 26, 2014)

Bumpyride said:


> I know I'm repeating myself, but for those of you who haven't run across this on stretch wrap. I have wheelsets that I installed around 10 months ago that are still good to go with no problems. Unlike Fatty stripper (that I thought about using myself, but bailed because of changing tires), I could really care less about what happens to the stretch wrap when the tire comes off. It's a 10 minute process to install new stretch wrap and costs less than $.30 cents (US dollars), and flame retardant clothing is not required.
> 
> Tubeless With Stretch Wrap Slideshow by Bumpyride69 | Photobucket
> 
> BTW there are captions above each picture if you opt for that. Just move your cursor on the picture.


I ditched the 3M tape and tried this method again. I did this 3 years ago on a set of real cheap steel wheels on a real cheap fatbike and had mixed results. Might be just the ticket for the Mulefats so why not. I do remember that when I cut the excess plastic off it would retreat back into the tyre bead and leak a bit - but that could have been the **** tyre, packing and **** rims.


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## Masul (Dec 6, 2015)

Can only agree on the stretch wrap method, got 2 fat bikes set up this way with no complains. One set is mulefuts and the other is dt swiss br710. The only important thing is to get the stretch wrap from the hardware store, the kind that is used for packaging your household i.e. cupboards etc... Dont use the kitchen type wrap cause it tears very easy.... just my 5 cents


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## ADKMTNBIKER (Nov 29, 2014)

Masul said:


> Can only agree on the stretch wrap method, got 2 fat bikes set up this way with no complains. One set is mulefuts and the other is dt swiss br710. The only important thing is to get the stretch wrap from the hardware store, the kind that is used for packaging your household i.e. cupboards etc... Dont use the kitchen type wrap cause it tears very easy.... just my 5 cents


just setup a wheel for the mayor this way. I got the wrap from uhaul. looks good so far.


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## Hudnut (Apr 12, 2005)

Another successful stretch wrap setup here. It was on Rolling Darryl and Nate. I used a piece of packing tape to secure the end of the wrap to itself because it wasn't clinging very well. otherwise it was easy as can be. I've done my 29" with the gorilla tape method but found the stretch wrap to be easier.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

I tried the stretch wrap without success. I may try again. Fatty Stripper worked fine. Split tubes was easy and cheaper than Fatty Stripper. Q-tube 24 x 2.4-2.75 presta tubes with removable core available from Bike Bling for $6/ea.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

ADKMTNBIKER said:


> If I'm trying to use split tube schrader valve, in a rim that has presta. should I need to drill out the hole? The rims on my 2015 Mayor have presta and schrader won't fit without a drill. Is this normal? Are there rims that are good for both?


By a tube with presta valve.

Q-Tubes 24" x 2.4-2.75" 32mm Presta Valve Tube from BikeBling.com


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## ADKMTNBIKER (Nov 29, 2014)

BlueCheesehead said:


> By a tube with presta valve.
> 
> Q-Tubes 24" x 2.4-2.75" 32mm Presta Valve Tube from BikeBling.com


I was using one rim as a trial. to do many different types of setups and see the difference. I already drilled it out for schrader but used an old presta cut out of a tube with the stretch wrap. The tube I used was too narrow for the 80 mm rim. I like the wrap method for the cheapness and it's also the lightest by far.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Just converted my wife's Watchman to tubeless - Nates on Rolling Daryls. They set up way easy with just a JoeBlow fat floor pump, no compressor needed. Piece o' cake and no noticeable air loss yet.


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## Lars_D (May 24, 2011)

So I finally got my my HED front rim and Sarma rear rim set up tubeless (after many failures). So, here are my reactions:

1. No weight savings compared to light tubes. It took 6-8 ounces of Stans per wheel, any less than that and the setup eventually failed. My tires were not tubeless ready, so maybe with tubeless ready tires you could get by with less Stans, but then you'd have much heavier tires, so again, no weight savings.

2. No pinch flat avoidance benefit. I have almost 14,000 miles on my fat bike with tubes and not one pinch flat at any pressure, so no benefit to switching to tubeless from this either.

3. No handling or grip benefit. Sorry, if anything, the tubeless setup is a bit bouncier. 

4. HUGE Reduction in rolling resistance. This last one is truly surprising and justifies the switch despite the mess, hassle, and extra expense.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Lars_D said:


> 1. No weight savings compared to light tubes. It took 6-8 ounces of Stans per wheel, any less than that and the setup eventually failed. My tires were not tubeless ready, so maybe with tubeless ready tires you could get by with less Stans, but then you'd have much heavier tires, so again, no weight savings.


Damn, that's a lot of sealant. I do around 4oz setting up a new tire (and that's a BIG tire). What kind of rim tape you using? I went Tyvek and it's stupid-light.


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## rschreck (Aug 11, 2014)

First my apologies for not reading all 37 million pages of this thread. 

Second: jackass me threw away my toobs after setting my tires up tubeless a long time ago. Got new tires. Setting it up again. Gorilla tape/Stans. Has anyone had any luck getting the bead to seat using a normal tube? Like a 26x2.25 tube? No shops here stock fatty toobs and I really don't feel like paying $15-18 for a tube that I'm only going to use for 2 minutes when I can get a normal tube for $3 at Walmart. All I need it to do is set the bead.


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## ADKMTNBIKER (Nov 29, 2014)

rschreck said:


> First my apologies for not reading all 37 million pages of this thread.
> 
> Second: jackass me threw away my toobs after setting my tires up tubeless a long time ago. Got new tires. Setting it up again. Gorilla tape/Stans. Has anyone had any luck getting the bead to seat using a normal tube? Like a 26x2.25 tube? No shops here stock fatty toobs and I really don't feel like paying $15-18 for a tube that I'm only going to use for 2 minutes when I can get a normal tube for $3 at Walmart. All I need it to do is set the bead.


I just heard about a method using starter fluid and a blow torch. Might work, or just try stretch wrap and a strap if needed.


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## Borgschulze (Nov 5, 2007)

BBQ lighter, blowtorch is kinda of dangerous... might ruin something.


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## InWyo (Sep 10, 2013)

My LBS puts 27.5 regular tubes in several fat bikes. If you are running 80mm or below, they work fine (in fact, I think they work better then a dedicated fat bike tube). If you are running a wider rim then that, I couldn't get it to work.


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## InWyo (Sep 10, 2013)

I set up a Bud and Lou on Clown Shoes with the Fatty Stripper this weekend.

I used the backer rods and bling strip with a little bit of soap for lubrication. The only place where I had a bit of trouble was getting everything to seal around the valve stem. Maybe I didn't use the spare tube quite right...didn't watch the video just went off written instructions. I had to tighten the nut quite a bit to get a good seal around the valve (even needed to use my multi-tool). In the end, I got everything set up with a hand pump. Set up took a bit of sweat, care and finesse, but I'm pleased.


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## Maadjurguer (Mar 22, 2008)

For Tubeless Tuesday....I read this entire thread. I have a Pivot Les Fat frame coming to me today vis a vis "Brown Santa" and am receiving my wheel parts in a few days....looking forward to lacing those suckers up and sharing my results with the class. As a pre-comment: I will say that I have contributed to the monster Arizona tubeless thread and have my own method which pretty much adheres to the best practices exhibited within this thread. I've been using Pipe Tape instead of Gorilla Tape for 7 years and have been happy with the results, both from an application/usage standpoint, and from a clean-up perspective. After absorbing all 38 pages of this thread, I'm going to go with another roll of pipe tape, but a 4" wide roll to ensure I can cover the rim completely and then trim back to just under the lip as I have done on my 29'r....thusly avoiding a gap between tape edge and rim/tire bead interface. The Zip flashing tape has me intrigued however....and if for some reason the pipe tape I've been using (only wider) does not work out, I may try that as a backup.

Looking forward to sharing my woes or triumph on this thread.


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## OKI790 (Sep 4, 2009)

Fat Biker said:


> Shipping I can take on the chin . It is what it is . But the UK seems to swap the $ sign for the £ sign (without using the exchange rate) THEN add 20% V.A.T. (our tax) then add ANOTHER $15 at the post office just for their handling charge . It all becomes quite expensive quite quickly .
> 
> Maybe we could look into a UK group buy of Q-Tubes or something LOL
> 
> ...


so true with the exchange rates, having skipped back and forth from the US to UK its become blatantly and horribly obvious. to add a dollop of conspiracy, i purchased a pc in the USA for a few hundred dollars, went back to the uk and did a search for the same shop\deal\product. the dollar prices were changed to say 600-700 usd (not just the gbp conversion, total different pricing scheme, i tried every trick to make me appear as if i was in the usa). went back to the usa, searched, normal price 200-300usd.

if ever your looking to save, get someone in the usa to search for you. but expect massive postage costs.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Not sure how I didn't reach this solution sooner, but I FINALLY got a reliable method to seat fat tires on my Nextie 65mm rims.

I've had to use a tube every time up until today.

Instead of using soapy water to lube the bead, I went with straight liquid dish soap, generously applied. Hit with the compressor, and POP, right into place. No need for any straps or anything funky this time.


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Harold said:


> Not sure how I didn't reach this solution sooner, but I FINALLY got a reliable method to seat fat tires on my Nextie 65mm rims.
> 
> I've had to use a tube every time up until today.
> 
> Instead of using soapy water to lube the bead, I went with straight liquid dish soap, generously applied. Hit with the compressor, and POP, right into place. No need for any straps or anything funky this time.


Not got the Nextie 65's Harold but their 65mm relatives from another supplier (To me they look identical :crazy: ).

JJ 4.0 Liteskins and Jug 4.0 pro's both sealed up with a track pump n no straps or shenanigans. All four went on by hand no dish soap , no water. Nothin. Both brand fire new rims and tyres. Never had it so easy TBH 

Dunno if yours or mine were first or last out of the moulds but somethings different (I'm sure they're the same rim even out of the same factory. Just different resellers  ) that's for sure.

Are yours painted ? Mine are unidirectional matte lacquered. Maybe that could be it ?

Glad you found the soloution though. 

Fat Biker

P.S. Aired straight up to 20psi when the popping stopped too .


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I do not think they are the same. I have both Nexties and LB's in the stable and they are subtly different.

At any rate, tire choice is definitely important. Note the tires I mentioned are NOT tubeless ready in any respect. The Nates are especially challenging to seat.

No sense in me spending hundreds on new rubber when I have plenty of life left in these and have been otherwise satisfied with them.

I have my eye on the Juggernauts once I wear out the Husker Dus


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## Fat Biker (Mar 3, 2007)

Harold said:


> I do not think they are the same. I have both Nexties and LB's in the stable and they are subtly different.
> 
> At any rate, tire choice is definitely important. Note the tires I mentioned are NOT tubeless ready in any respect. The Nates are especially challenging to seat.
> 
> ...


Not ridden either of mine yet. But I'd get a look minimum at the Jug pro's if not a ride. The blocks are shockingly small and the sidewalls could have been made in a condom factory. Durable or substantial are two words I would least expect to be heard when describing them. The JJ's on the other hand although heavier (not by much IRL  ) do appear to offer a far more robust tread and carcass upon initial inspection. The proof is in the riding though 

Fat Biker


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

not sure I'll get to ride both, but a local shop does have both in stock, among other choices.


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## vmk (Jul 12, 2015)

A big plastic bag = instant tubeless-rim strip:









By far the easiest and cheapest way to make a rim tubeless that I've tested. Also worked on Rolling Darryl rim.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

vmk said:


> A big plastic bag = instant tubeless-rim strip:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely, completely hysterical. For over three years I've been wondering "if only there was a big tube of plastic that I could just cut a hoop out of...bam, instant tubeless."...and its been in front of my face the entire time.


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## GilbyVT (Jul 9, 2011)

You just blew my mind. Is this just a contractor bag?


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## vmk (Jul 12, 2015)

Pretty much any plastic bag with suitable diameter will do. The bag that I used is for (moose)hunters to store meat. The opening is about 87cm and that's pretty much perfect, needs a tiny bit of stretching to mount it. I've tried garbage bags too, but that's so thin material that it's too easy to damage the bag while assembling the tire. 

I use a couple of layers of packing tape to cover the nibbles and rim holes, before I put the bag on. Depending how thick plastic you can find (and how dangerously you want to live) you may get away by just using the plastic bag.

One 7€ roll of bags will do a lot of tubeless setups and it's easy to take spares with you on trips


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## Gambit21 (Feb 6, 2015)

Did the tubeless conversion on the Farley 7 last night - Zip System tape.
Shop ZIP System 90-ft Panel System Tape at Lowes.com

Wide, sticky, stretchy, and the $25 roll will probably do 8 wheels.
I had to hit the inside of the Mulefuts with steel wool and alcohol since it's like teflon in there and the tape is loath to stick to it at first.
The prep is what took the most time. I also took an exacto to the stock rim strim to make it a bit narrower and give the tape more surface area to stick to.

A second set of hands helped me get a good tight stretch on the tape, as I pulled the roll and burnished it down with my other hand. Then I ran an X`acto knife along the bottom of the bead shelf and re-burnished the tape. Looks factory installed.

Mounted the tire with the tube, inflated to lock the beads.
Broke one side, removed the tube, inserted the new valve stem, poured in 8oz Stans racing sealant and re-inflated.

Done.

That Zip take is good stuff, but on an 80mm rim I needed to trim it. 
Perhaps I could have left it alone, but I wasn't sure the tire bead would lock on the rim as well if I didn't expose the bead shelf.


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## Kirkerik (Apr 21, 2016)

*Thanks, Watermonkey. Longterm report?*



watermonkey said:


> This is the next evolution in my tubeless adventures - on the HL80 again, without any sort of rim filler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anyone else try this tape?

This tape is nice and wide so could cut the roll in half or off center giving you two rolls: one for wide rims and one for narrower, leaving enough width to get bead seat to bead seat coverage. Looks like it would work like the Zipp tape method but wider.

I'd like to try it w tyvek house wrap material or reinforced nylon as the rim strip then a layer of this carpet shield tape.

Anyone else have any success or failures?

It's called: Quick Shield 9" wide carpet protection tape made by Surface Shields.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Gambit21 said:


> Did the tubeless conversion on the Farley 7 last night - Zip System tape.
> Shop ZIP System 90-ft Panel System Tape at Lowes.com
> 
> Wide, sticky, stretchy, and the $25 roll will probably do 8 wheels.
> ...


A vendor on E-Bay currently has the Zip tape for $25 or best offer. I offered $20 and vendor accepted. No additional shipping charged. Not a bad deal.


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## missourifarmer (Aug 25, 2016)

do you guys do both tubes or just front? Got a used bike the front is tubeless but not back? why?


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## Gambit21 (Feb 6, 2015)

missourifarmer said:


> do you guys do both tubes or just front? Got a used bike the front is tubeless but not back? why?


Both - don't spin about why the front is tubeless and not the rear on that bike.


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## Lars_D (May 24, 2011)

Here is a video showing how I set up Clown Shoe and Rolling Darryl rims tubeless.


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## vmk (Jul 12, 2015)

Quick fix for broken tubeless tire. Here's mine with a branch that went thru in the middle of the thread:








I cleaned the hole the best I could, then I used a couple of matches to dry the surface. Next in went a healthy dose of super glue. After that had set I added a piece of old tire on top of the hole, super glue again, to make sure that I get home. Worked perfectly, finished the ride in a rocky trail with out any leaking


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## Wombat (Jan 25, 2004)

I just set up my Bucksaw tubeless using a clownshoe rim strips on top of the Marge Lite strip along with Stans valves and ~100ml of sealant. It has Marge Lite rims, a Nate tyre of the front and an On-One Floater on the rear, I managed to get the beads to seal for both wheels with a floor pump. Here's what I found:

I first tried this on the rear a couple of months ago but couldn't get the tyre beads to seal. I left the extra rim strip in the wheel and put the tube back in and rode the bike for a few hundred kilometres. I've now returned from a trip where I got far too many flats. This gave me the impetus to try again. At the start of the trip I had a Nate on the rear, but replaced it with the thicker Floater as it offers better puncture protection for the tube.

The back wheel has had the extra rim strip in it for about 3 months and I just carefully broke the bead on one side, removed the tube and put the Stans valve in. I placed the wheel on a bucket, with the open bead facing down, slathered on dish washing detergent, removed the valve core and pumped as hard as I could for about 20 seconds when I could see the tyre was inflating. I then put the Stans in using a large syringe and did the usual shake and roll. There were no leaks from the rim holes, the valve or the sidewalls.

On the front wheel I needed to put the Clown Shoe rim strip on. I then tried the above steps but couldn't keep the bead on one side of the tyre seated so I put the tube back in and left it over night. This morning I repeated the steps I used for the back wheel and got the beads to easily seat and then added the Stans. 

I found this time the sealant leaked out of the sidewalls, the rim strips and around the valve. I assume this is because the extra rims strip on the front hadn't spent a few months settling into the wheel, and the much thicker and heavier Floater on the rear is more airtight than the Nate. After shaking it around for a while it sealed up properly and about 6 hours later it's still holding pressure after a 1 hour ride.

Thanks to those who posted their experience on using this method.

Tim


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## grisha (Oct 28, 2007)

Have some leftovers of PE swimming pool liner. And decided to try it for tubeless setup. The liner is 0.3mm thick. Cut a strip of 185 cm (175 cm circumference +10 cm for overlap), welded it with an iron and stretched over the rim. No rim tape, just this liner.

With tire mounted:








On bike:








Welded overlap:


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## ashwinearl (Jan 2, 2004)

Dilligaff said:


> Works perfectly. Stretch it somewhat tight before trimming and there won't be any wrinkles.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## patski (Dec 12, 2005)

vmk said:


> Quick fix for broken tubeless tire. Here's mine with a branch that went thru in the middle of the thread:


On the ride last night somone had a puncture, Stans wasnt' sealing, it was wet and muddy....

One guy had a tubeless patch kit, we were back riding in under 5mins.

This is the kit we used: http://amzn.to/2gnL1AC

Cheaper option here http://amzn.to/2f80waK


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

ashwinearl said:


> Dilligaff said:
> 
> 
> > Works perfectly. Stretch it somewhat tight before trimming and there won't be any wrinkles.
> ...


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## Dilligaff (Nov 19, 2015)

I used two because one seemed to bulge the center strip more than I liked.


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Man, I'm so tempted to buy a Milkit valve package and go tubeless ... but I'm not sure yet, what my bike maker delivers for rims on the ordered bike ... it says Alex Blizzerks, but I also heard the swapped somewhere once .. I'll see. The Blizzerks seema bit heavy and I have no idea how good they are for tubeless ... was also thinking of DT Swiss 710s to go lighter, even though they're not tubeless ready by DT Swiss it seems they work well with decent tape. Ah well ... I have no real idea what the best rim for tubeless would be. The 710s are decent weightwise for the price .. and a lightweight all closed rim like the B.A.D is both very expensive and .. I'm not sure about the stability of a full metal rim at that weight level.

Also thinking of ghetto methods. I think buying latex bands in bulk rolls at about 150mm width and glue the ends with vulcanizing latex rubber would be a fairly decent solution .... just need to fidn out where to get cheap latex bulkware in decent quality. And I can't really decide on what thickness you'd need.

Anyone know what a proper thickness for the latex bands would be, so that it is solid enough to stay in place, not ripping etc, but without being too thick as a liner to the tires bead?


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## enemy1 (Nov 2, 2008)




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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

After years of stubbornly sticking to my guns on the tape method, I went out to the garage this afternoon and found the rear wheel that I'm planning on using for the Fat Pursuit this weekend was completely flat. "No prob," I thought, "it's been a while since I've topped off the Stan's in that wheel. I'll just squirt a couple ounces in there and pump it back and go for a ride." 

Which I did, and then upon pumping it back up, I hear air and see Stan's coming out of several of the rim cutouts, through the sides of the rim strip. ****. Nothing to do at that point but strip the whole wheel down again, clean it really well, and start a fresh tape job (the current tape job lasted a year on this particular wheel). Except I don't have a ton of time for that particular project right now. 

And then I remembered I had mistakenly bought a 24" x 2.7" Q-tube that I needed to return to the shop, and I thought...hmmm.....maybe I should give the split tube method a try. 

Piece of cake - way faster than going through the whole tape process and it sealed up on the first try. I think I may be converted....


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## johnny5jz (Sep 15, 2015)

Just tried the fatty stripper setup with Vanhelgas and surly rolling Daryl rims. Hope it works as well as advertised. I will be trying it out tomorrow. I had an issue with burping when I tried just tape.


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## grizwold (Aug 28, 2009)

Having trouble setting the bead on my Kendra Juggernauts. Using taped rolling daryls and a compressor but the bead won't budge. Any suggestions to try?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## johnny5jz (Sep 15, 2015)

I had to put a tube in my rolling darryls and set both beads. Then I broke one bead, pulled the tube out, and installed the new valve stem. Then hold the wheel sideways with the broken bead side down, and you can inflate it with a hand pump. I tried a lot of other ways, but it never worked.


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## johnny5jz (Sep 15, 2015)

First ride with the fatty stripper setup tonight. I ran at 7lbs due to packed trails. No burping. I will see how low I can go before they burp.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Converted my Large Marge for Minion 4.8's, used Stans valves and sealant.

I honestly can't stand cutouts, but it is what it is, so off to Joann's Fabrics for some durable Offray Ribbon, 1.5", then to Home Depot for a roll of Versa Tape, 3".

The Offray 1.5" ribbon covers the holes nicely, it's durable nylon used for crafts , and there are lots of color choices; I got purple.

The Versa tape is rubberized, stretchy, water proof, and moldable, designed for sealing membranes in shower pans, pulled tight, it molds to the rim, with 5mm overlap to either side, a little razor knife trim and it's solid. I cut it back so that it was covering the rim hook.

Sealed up with a little help from a compressor, seated well with 25psi, no leaks, held great on today's ride, down to 4psi.

and it ain't even Tuesday


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## jcollinsia (Jul 26, 2011)

Just went tubeless on my Farley with the Barbegazi / Mulefut 80 combo using Stans valves & sealant, Sun Ringle tape and Surly rim strips in orange. It all went together perfectly and I've had zero issues so far after 3 long-ish rides.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

grizwold said:


> Having trouble setting the bead on my Kendra Juggernauts. Using taped rolling daryls and a compressor but the bead won't budge. Any suggestions to try?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Use a cam strap to compress the tire center, which pushes the beads to the rim shelf.

Compressor to inglate, then deflate and add sealant with a syringe through the valve. Reinflate and go ride.


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

Halp! working on going tubeless and I can't get the tire to go above 10 psi with out it leaking (orange seal)around the entire one side of the bead seat. The other side is totally clean with no leaks. thinking maybe the bead is not seated (even though it is indicated by the little line) and I need to get more air in there faster with a compressor, just need to hook it up to the adapter.

Setup is old darryl orange seal tape and non TLR dillinger 4's. I taped up on to the bead seat too for a tighter interface.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Set tape
Install tube overnight at 20psi
Break bead on 1 side of tire
Remove tube
Set bead (with soapy water as necessary)
Insert sealant
Ride immediately

If not riding immediately, hold off on sealant, as it won't work it's way around the bead and the tire will leak down. This may be part of the problem. Just spinning the tire doesn't get it everywhere it needs to be IME.


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

positive update! update.

got the compressor hooked up to it and jacked it up to 30-35 psi and it leaked around the other bead as well and then stopped shortly after and its holding strong at ~30 psi with no bubbles!


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## headwind (Sep 30, 2004)

I've been using stretch wrap from home depot. 
Wrap rim, install valve, install tire and inflate with floor pump.
Takes about 10 minutes a wheel.
I have the sun tape and rim strips on order but for now this works very well.


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

so i woke up this morning the the back tire is low and the front is just completely zero pressure. I tested the beads on both and the front broke quite easily while the rear held up so I didn't push it to hard. Gonna try again today I guess and take it for a ride this time.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Nick Bain said:


> so i woke up this morning the the back tire is low and the front is just completely zero pressure. I tested the beads on both and the front broke quite easily while the rear held up so I didn't push it to hard. Gonna try again today I guess and take it for a ride this time.


Always take for a ride after putting sealant in. It won't work to all the nooks and crannies of the bead otherwise.


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

tried it again and the tape seems to have failed due to sealant leaking through the tape somewhere as it was leaking profusely through the cutouts not impressed with the orange seal tape usability. Just went out and bought clear gorilla tape.


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## pocky (Apr 7, 2009)

*FattyStripper = TheraBand?*

FattyStripper is out of stock on their normal bands till mid-February.

But in doing a bit of guesswork, I'm theorizing that Thera-Band latex exercise resistance bands are the exact stuff they're using to make their strips, or they're using the same supplier. Am I right about this? The bands come 6" (150mm!) wide -- the exact width of a standard FattyStripper. The only previous hits in a search for Thera-Band on MTBR are about people doing PT on their elbows and such like -- nothing about tubeless. But if my calculations are correct, one should be able to get at least 3 strips to stretch to a 26" rim out of the 6 yard box for $14 or 25 strips out of the 50 yard box for $115. Just gotta unroll the box and glue or weld the seam to your length of choice. Should I assume the "red/medium" is the exact same thickness that FattyStripper is using? Is there an advantage to going thinner or thicker?


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Nick Bain said:


> tried it again and the tape seems to have failed due to sealant leaking through the tape somewhere as it was leaking profusely through the cutouts not impressed with the orange seal tape usability. Just went out and bought clear gorilla tape.


Next time try Zip flashing tape. It is pliable and stretches nicely to conform to the rim contours.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

pocky said:


> FattyStripper is out of stock on their normal bands till mid-February.
> 
> But in doing a bit of guesswork, I'm theorizing that Thera-Band latex exercise resistance bands are the exact stuff they're using to make their strips, or they're using the same supplier. Am I right about this? The bands come 6" (150mm!) wide -- the exact width of a standard FattyStripper. The only previous hits in a search for Thera-Band on MTBR are about people doing PT on their elbows and such like -- nothing about tubeless. But if my calculations are correct, one should be able to get at least 3 strips to stretch to a 26" rim out of the 6 yard box for $14 or 25 strips out of the 50 yard box for $115. Just gotta unroll the box and glue or weld the seam to your length of choice. Should I assume the "red/medium" is the exact same thickness that FattyStripper is using? Is there an advantage to going thinner or thicker?


A 24" x 2.25-2.75 Q-Tube set up split tube works better IME than Fatty Strippers. Advantages I have found:

1.) chance of leaking between the stem and stripper is eliminated.
2.) I had better luck with reuse
3.) It is way easier to trim excess.
4.) excess is black so it is not noticeable.
5.) Cost was better at ~$6/tube which includes stem with removable core.


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## pocky (Apr 7, 2009)

But $6 per tube is the exact same cost as FattyStripper anyway at $12 for a pair, assuming you're just using valves that you just cut out of old tubes for free.








Anyway, the main point of FattyStripper as my friends have been using it (and I've been planning to use it) is not to be the lightest possible setup (which it probably is, except for stretch wrap), but rather to make the seal on poor tire/rim combinations easy to do in the first place, and to prevent burping altogether. The latex is supposed to bond to the tire and not to the rim, so you're essentially turning the tire into a tubular that will not burp even if you roll the tire bead off the rim altogether, and will even stay on the tire when you change tires.








Question 4 and 5 in the FAQ: FattyStripper & SkinnyStripper Tubeless FAQs


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

pocky said:


> But $6 per tube is the exact same cost as FattyStripper anyway at $12 for a pair, assuming you're just using valves that you just cut out of old tubes for free.
> View attachment 1118612
> 
> 
> Anyway, the main point of FattyStripper as my friends have been using it (and I've been planning to use it) is not to be the lightest possible setup (which it probably is, except for stretch wrap), but rather to make the seal on poor tire/rim combinations easy to do in the first place, and to prevent burping altogether. The latex is supposed to bond to the tire and not to the rim, so you're essentially turning the tire into a tubular that will not burp even if you roll the tire bead off the rim altogether, and will even stay on the tire when you change tires.


The key will be them staying glued to the tire and the seal between the stem than the thin stripper holding during removal. They may have had a price drop since I purchased them. I thought I had paid $16, but perhaps that included the foam backer rod.

My biggest frustration with them was trying to trim the excess without slicing the sidewall. Even with a new razor blade they were tough to cut.


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## MioFatbike (Jan 7, 2017)

Maybe you don't need to glue or weld. Looks like you can just get the loops!


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## pocky (Apr 7, 2009)

Oh, wow, that would be perfect. But I assume 18 inch "lay flat length" means 36 inch circumference. Is that enough to stretch around a 26" rim? Based on the installation video on their web site, it looks like the strips are considerably longer than 26 inches lay flat, since the strip hangs lower than the diameter of the wheel.

I was assuming length should be π*d for d=24" since we'd otherwise be going for a 24" split tube, so we're looking at around 75" of unstretched FattyStrip, aren't we? But latex is pretty stretchy. So even if we assume the equivalent of a 20" split tube, we're still talking about 63" of circumference, and it does look from that video like the fattystripper is hanging about 30" down, doubled.


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## MioFatbike (Jan 7, 2017)

I know it's Wednesday but I did do this last night on Tuesday and wanted to share my very novice experience with going tubeless. To start, I have a Scott Bid Ed with the standard Scott Syncro stuff including the wheels which are not tubeless ready. After much research here, I decided to try the split tube method. I bought a couple of Q-tube 24" 2.1-2.3" tubes and a bottle of Orange seal and using new JJ 4.4 Snakeskins. 

Prepped the wheels just by washing them lightly with a bit of dish soap and water. Installed the inner tube and pumped it up to stretch the tube and made sure it was centered and the seam was at the top of the tube to guide where to split it. Using an exacto knife I started to cut on the seam carefully. A little tension by pulling on the tube made this go easy and smooth. Once the tube was split, I did clean out the talc inside just by using a rag and water. Then I put the tire on the rim and made sure the edges of the tube were centered and equal amounts showing over the shoulder of the rim. Placed a little soapy water using my finger along the edges of the tube to allow the tire to move easier and set up. Using a compressor, at about 20 lbs the tire popped into place on the first try! Using the exacto knife, I trimmed the excess tube from the sides by pulling on it and cutting. I was able to get a clean and even cut with only about .25 inch showing which you cannot see since it is black.

At this point the tires have been sitting and holding pressure and I have not even put any Orange seal in! This was so easy and worthwhile and took me about 20 minutes total for the first tire and about 10 minutes for the second. 

Total weigh savings were pretty good as well:

Old tires 4.5" Kenda Juggernaut Sport 1514 grams or 3.33 lbs
Old tubes 26X3.8/5.0 451 grams or 15.9 oz
Total 1965 grams or 4.33 lbs

New tires 4.4" JJ Snakeskins 1227 grams or 2.7 lbs
New tubes Q-tubes 24X2.1/2.4 192 grams or 6.9 oz (less 25 grams from final trimming)
Total 1394 grams or 3.07 lbs

That's a whopping 571 grams or 1.26 lbs from 1 wheel on my setup if my math is correct!!!!! 

I do expect to put 3-4 ounces of Orange seal so then the weight savings would be closer to 1 lb per wheel but I think that is pretty darn good. Overall this was a good learning experience and I encourage anyone to try this method. It was easy and clean and worked like a charm (for my set up anyway).

That's it, just wanted to share my experience.


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

so it tried it with clear gorilla tape and that tape held for 10 mins and went to hell after. Upon teardown found the tape had failed as I had to double wrap it. Gonna try again this time with leaving the tube and tire on at 20 psi overnight and since I ran out of orange tape I'm using some of both tapes! I think Im getting close to $100.


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## woody.1 (Jun 10, 2008)

BlueCheesehead said:


> A 24" x 2.25-2.75 Q-Tube set up split tube works better IME than Fatty Strippers. Advantages I have found:
> 
> 1.) chance of leaking between the stem and stripper is eliminated.
> 2.) I had better luck with reuse
> ...


I bought an ICT and picked it up last week. I asked my LBS to setup tubeless and this is the method they used. They said with tape they've seen people poke at rim and break the tape loose. With the 24" inner tube cut open it eliminates this. I've ridden it 5 times and haven't put any air in since I picked it up. So far so good.


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## noosa2 (May 20, 2004)

MioFatbike said:


> After much research here, I decided to try the split tube method. I bought a couple of Q-tube 24" 2.1-2.3" tubes...Using the exacto knife, I trimmed the excess tube from the sides by pulling on it and cutting. I was able to get a clean and even cut with only about .25 inch showing which you cannot see since it is black.


Anyone used 24" x 2.1-2.3" split tubes for going tubeless on Rolling Daryl's? I ask because my shop has the 24" x 2.1-2.3" tubes in stock but they would have to order the 2.4-2.75" tubes. They also said that the 2.4-2.75 were $7 more per tube than the 2.1-2.3" tubes.


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## Wombat (Jan 25, 2004)

pocky said:


> Oh, wow, that would be perfect. But I assume 18 inch "lay flat length" means 36 inch circumference. Is that enough to stretch around a 26" rim?


I just measure the length of the clown shoe rim strip I use on my Marge lite rims and it's 780mm (just over 30") when laid out flat. I'd guess you'd need about the same length in Theraband.

Tim


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

BlueCheesehead said:


> A 24" x 2.25-2.75 Q-Tube set up split tube works better IME than Fatty Strippers. Advantages I have found:
> 
> 1.) chance of leaking between the stem and stripper is eliminated.
> 2.) I had better luck with reuse
> ...


This, to which I would add:

6.) Way quicker and easier, ime, to set up than dickin' around with tape, foam, whatever.
7.) See #1 again. And not only is it eliminated at the stem - if you do it properly, it is eliminated everywhere. You've essentially created a vulcanized seal from bead to bead, with an integrated stem.

After trying a variety of different approaches, I really see no advantage to messing around with any other methods anymore. At least for rims/tires that aren't truly tubeless ready.


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## Gambit21 (Feb 6, 2015)

Nick Bain said:


> so it tried it with clear gorilla tape and that tape held for 10 mins and went to hell after. Upon teardown found the tape had failed as I had to double wrap it. Gonna try again this time with leaving the tube and tire on at 20 psi overnight and since I ran out of orange tape I'm using some of both tapes! I think Im getting close to $100.


I guess no amount of typing and posting about what actually works will help some people.


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## MioFatbike (Jan 7, 2017)

Split. Tube. Method.
Cost = $6 per wheel
Time = 10 min per wheel
Results = It freaking works!!!


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Since Tesa 4289 proved to be a stiff nightmare on my Nextie rims with their "valley" .. at least in the probably too broad 50mm version, I decided to just cut out small pieces and cover the spokeholes that way ... then protected the whole thing with one full circle of Kerbl silotape ... looks a bit weird:









Sealed completely shut on first try, though, with the Snowshoe XLs I got on ... which sit real tight in the rims. Added some 60 ml of Bontrager TLR sealant and not even a molecule seemed to leak anywhere .. thing is just rocksolid atm. I hope it stays that way  It's been keeping its air pressure since a week, tho.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Just a FYI, Tyvek Tape on 65mm rims, 1 pass, weighs 6g. I use two passes for my 90mm rims, so that would be 12g.


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## Smithhammer (Jul 18, 2015)

Jayem said:


> Just a FYI, Tyvek Tape on 65mm rims, 1 pass, weighs 6g. I use two passes for my 90mm rims, so that would be 12g.


Are they tubeless ready rims? If so, then that's all I do as well.

Doesn't look like they have cutouts - that can make a big difference with the longevity/integrity of tape solutions over time. But for some, longevity of the setup is important, for others that change tires frequently, maybe not so much.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Smithhammer said:


> Are they tubeless ready rims? If so, then that's all I do as well.
> 
> Doesn't look like they have cutouts - that can make a big difference with the longevity/integrity of tape solutions over time. But for some, longevity of the setup is important, for others that change tires frequently, maybe not so much.


They are light bicycle, and I find them and the nexties are about as "tubeless" as you can get, save for the ridiculous no-nipple-hole rims. Some people report issues with certain tires on other rims that on these, are just like a match made in heaven.


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

Going to try the stretch wrap on my darryls. My tape jobs keep failing maybe cause I have 1.5" holes in my rims and it moves the tape too much.

The rear is still holding though even though i set it up without the overnight method orange seal.




Update Stretch wrap is the bees knees!! not sure If i even needed sealant even with with both non-tubeless components!!! Well maybe around the valve stem.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Found some new tape at Lowe's, chanced upon it in the mobile home repair section. It's designed for wrapping pipes, it's heat and cold resistant, water proof, slightly atretchy, 10mm thick, very tough, and only $5 a roll.

I unrolled 80", cut it down the middle with scissors. I used it to replace some crappy leaking 25mm Stans tape on my son's 29er. Tubelees went up easy, no leaks, no fuss, could be a winner if it lasts. A 100' roll will do fourteen fat rims or twenty eight skinny rims.


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

Gambit21 said:


> I guess no amount of typing and posting about what actually works will help some people.


I guess being a dick for no reason has not gone out of style.


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## Gambit21 (Feb 6, 2015)

Nick Bain said:


> I guess being a dick for no reason has not gone out of style.


Looks like someone is sore because they realized a negative rep point can be returned in kind.  Careful - you'll be in the red before you know it.

Next time just take the time to read the info that we took the time to type - to help you.


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

Gambit21 said:


> Looks like someone is sore because they realized a negative rep point can be returned in kind.  Careful - you'll be in the red before you know it.
> 
> Next time just take the time to read the info that we took the time to type - to help you.


YOUR comments were of no help.


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## Gambit21 (Feb 6, 2015)

That's where reading the thread comes in handy.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Update on the Christy's pipe wrap tape:

Holding strong, no loss of pressure, too bad they don't make it in different widths, but 2" is a good all around width.

The price is really good, $5 for 100'.

I'll never buy Stan's again.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Has anyone ever tried painting a rim with plasticoat? Obviously this would be unlikely to work on rims with cutouts...

EDIT: HEY YOU TWO, KNOCK OFF THE ********, TAKE IT OFFLINE, YOU'RE FING UP A THREAD THAT HAS PERSISTED FOR A LONG TIME WITHOUT THIS SORT OF ASSHAT BEHAVIOR.


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## Nick Bain (Jan 15, 2015)

Gambit21 said:


> That's where reading the thread comes in handy.


get a life


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## Gambit21 (Feb 6, 2015)

Nick Bain said:


> get a life


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## Branner (May 28, 2015)

Trying my first tubeless project and hoping to get some help and advice. After thoroughly cleaning the rim with rubbing alcohol and putting the rim strip on here's wher I need help. The tape I have (Terrine 55mm) covers this much of the rim (65mm Tubeless ready). 

It covers the rim strip but overlaps it only by ~1.5mm on each side. I think I should take two passes at this to cover more area. That's where my next question comes into play. If you look close, there is an indentation in the rim. When I tape the rim should I make sure that some tape goes into the indentation closest to the bead? Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

You're gonna hafta do 2 passes with the tape. Take the tape part way up the inside of the flange for the bead to rest into the tape and keep it well planted. A tube setup following the tape work makes a day and night difference as well. Give it a few days to set in and unseat one side of the tire to remove the tube and install the valve stem. Should be rockin tubeless in no time!! :cornut:


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## Branner (May 28, 2015)

Thank you, BR!!


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## dRjOn (Feb 18, 2004)

i've been using 3m 764 vinyl marking tape on Nextie rims with great success, though with non ammonia based sealants (revo) 

I had been looking for thinner tape though, as trimming it from 50mm to fit is a pain. it seems very similar to the 33+ 3m electrical tape in properties (if you look at their data sheets) and i will try this going forward as with nexties, you dont need to cover more than the nipple access holes. 

interestingly, the tape didnt even begin to stick to an Enve rim.


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## Jeff_G (Oct 22, 2015)

Something just dawned on me. I switched from Fattystrippers to Sunringle tape on my Mulefuts in the fall when I put the studded D5s on. In Feb. went back to Barbagazzis. 

I checking and adding air every third day or so with the Fattystrippers. The current set up with the Sunringle tape hasn't lost 1 psi in the last month. 

Could be user error with the valve stem on the Fattystipper but......

YMV


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Could be how porous the tire sidewalls are too. Just saying... I have always used full ust rims, amazing how tire porosity varies, even from one to another of the same tire. I now weigh them and take the heaviest one, use less sealant to even out the difference in weight.


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## Jeff_G (Oct 22, 2015)

bsieb said:


> ^Could be how porous the tire sidewalls are too. Just saying... I have always used full ust rims, amazing how tire porosity varies, even from one to another of the same tire. I now weigh them and take the heaviest one, use less sealant to even out the difference in weight.


Nope, I've run both sets of tires with both tubeless set ups with the same result.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Jeff_G said:


> Something just dawned on me. I switched from Fattystrippers to Sunringle tape on my Mulefuts in the fall when I put the studded D5s on. In Feb. went back to Barbagazzis.
> 
> I checking and adding air every third day or so with the Fattystrippers. The current set up with the Sunringle tape hasn't lost 1 psi in the last month.
> 
> ...


Like latex tubes, they seep air.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

Jeff_G said:


> Something just dawned on me. I switched from Fattystrippers to Sunringle tape on my Mulefuts in the fall when I put the studded D5s on. In Feb. went back to Barbagazzis.
> 
> I checking and adding air every third day or so with the Fattystrippers. The current set up with the Sunringle tape hasn't lost 1 psi in the last month.
> 
> ...


Fattystrippers are latex. Latex tubes lose air way faster than rubber tubes. I would expect Fattystrippers to similarly lose pressure. Doh, Banshee beat me to it. My bad for posting before reading the full thread.


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## chode (Sep 16, 2010)

Shredded my rear fattystripper somehow and had to walk the bike out of the woods Saturday. My wife is a therapist and has Teraband which is the same crap so I mounted the "green" which is mid grade thickness and more durable. I used rubber cement to create the loop and overlap followed by Elmer's glue spray between the bling tape and Teraband. Fingers crossed that this will hold up or I will switch to the split tube or sunringle tape.


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## Gambit21 (Feb 6, 2015)

chode said:


> Shredded my rear fattystripper somehow and had to walk the bike out of the woods Saturday. My wife is a therapist and has Teraband which is the same crap so I mounted the "green" which is mid grade thickness and more durable. I used rubber cement to create the loop and overlap followed by Elmer's glue spray between the bling tape and Teraband. Fingers crossed that this will hold up or I will switch to the split tube or sunringle tape.


Zip Tape


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## Jeff_G (Oct 22, 2015)

I keep hearing Zip Tape but I cannot find it anywhere. Home Depot shows it but it's unavailable in store and online. Which is sweet. 

Anyone have a link?


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## Branner (May 28, 2015)

Jeff, try Lowes.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

I've never seen it either, and I've tried the online outlets for both Lowe's and Home depot. All I've ever found is thick, tarry, bituthane tape, that would be a nightmare to apply and then remove if needed. Gambit comes on here everytime someone mentions a tubeless method, yet has yet to provide a link to the actual product for sale, or a specific item/product number for it. I believe the stuff to be vaporware.


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## Gambit21 (Feb 6, 2015)

watermonkey said:


> I've never seen it either, and I've tried the online outlets for both Lowe's and Home depot. All I've ever found is thick, tarry, bituthane tape, that would be a nightmare to apply and then remove if needed. Gambit comes on here everytime someone mentions a tubeless method, yet has yet to provide a link to the actual product for sale, or a specific item/product number for it. I believe the stuff to be vaporware.


3 second search yields a link to Lowes.com.

https://m.lowes.com/pd/ZIP-System-90-ft-Panel-System-Tape/50373856

Use bubble gum and Scotch tape for all I care. Fact is, flashing tape is by FAR the best tape solution if you have the bandwidth to locate it.

I've also said multiple times - Forti-Flash...Tyvek...flashing tape.

Zip has a nice balance between flex and adhesion. FortiFlash is extremely sticky, which would cause me concern for later removal. Point is, flashing tape is wide, stretchy, and sticky...and you can pick up one brand or another at any local establishment that carries construction materials.

So whining about "vaporware" is beyond silly. "Silly" being the most diplomatic word for what I'm really thinking, especially given the number of times I've covered this.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Ohhhhh! Now I know what you're talking about! Yeah, that stuff. Doesn't work. Total nightmare.


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## Gambit21 (Feb 6, 2015)

heh...nice try.
Shameful, yet typical


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## no sweat (Aug 21, 2014)

Gambit21 said:


> Zip has a nice balance between flex and adhesion.


Yes it does, and thank you for posting this (multiple times). It works so well on Mulefut rims (for instance) that there really isn't any good reason I can think of to muck about with anything else.


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## Kirkerik (Apr 21, 2016)

I could see how zip tape would work nicely, although how do you deal w the exposed sticky side in rim cutouts? Assuming you want to run sans stripper for more weight savings.

Maybe one wrap of shrinkwrap and then the zip for durability.


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## Gambit21 (Feb 6, 2015)

If you're worried about the minuscule amount of weight that is the rim strip after you've committed to that rim and tire....

No weenies!


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## Jeff_G (Oct 22, 2015)

Bling strips from Fattystripper weigh 100 grams for the pair. When you are running a set of tires that weigh 3.000 grams it's probably not a large impact.


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## Kirkerik (Apr 21, 2016)

Gambit21 said:


> If you're worried about the minuscule amount of weight that is the rim strip after you've committed to that rim and tire....
> 
> No weenies!





Jeff_G said:


> Bling strips from Fattystripper weigh 100 grams for the pair. When you are running a set of tires that weigh 3.000 grams it's probably not a large impact.


Ah, okay. I'm running carbons so I have no experience w fattystrippers. Somehow had the impression they were heavy (so as to be durable from punctures and stuff).


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## Cap'n (Aug 11, 2016)

I converted mine to tubeless using the split tube method this wknd.

I installed used VeeRubber Vee8s (72 TPI) on Holy Darryls. My LBS only had Axiom downhill tubes in 24x2.75, so they are thicker (and heavier) than needed, but it's what I could get. 

Getting the tire to seat on the rim was pretty easy; I used a ratchet strap, and using a floor pump I had no issue getting it to inflate on the first go.

I had seen a YouTube video that showed a guy using a syringe to inject the sealant directly through the tire, and since the tubes I got don't have a removable stem, I figured I'd give that a go. I used an 18 gauge needle (fairly large) attached to a 100 ml syringe, and it was, overall, a failure. As one might expect, the Stan's sealed the hole in the needle before I could push 100 ml of sealant into the tire, let alone refilling the syringe to add more. I went through all three needles that I had before breaking the seal between the tire and rim and squirting it in that way.

Then I reinflated, took them for a ride, and lost no air. Overnight now, and still no air lost. I'm happy, and glad I read this megathread.


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## Jeff_G (Oct 22, 2015)

Help me out. 

I've done 3 sets of Mulefuts using Fattystripper and Sunringle tape. All using the Fattystripper Bling strips and their valves. All were successful. My latest endeavor was the Sunringle tape on my bike. It holds air for weeks.......

Guy at work buys a Sturgis NX 1x11 and I suggest he go tubeless. Offer to help as I've done it many times. 

Put the bling strip on, tape goes on without any hiccups, put the valve cores in (no gasket or tube material like the other times) put the tire on, Stan's inserted through the valve and air it up. 

Front hisses like crazy out of the cutouts. Basically went flat three times in five minutes. We did the Stan's shake and it stopped after about 15 minutes.

Back seems to hold air. 

We go for a 20 minute ride.

Guy goes home and both tires are flat in morning. From 15 psi to flat in a day. 

Any thoughts? 

"No good deed goes unpunished, do good deeds anyway"


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## Cerpss (Sep 13, 2015)

I had Mulefuts go flat on initial tubeless setup and at a couple tire changes. Initially on one it was leaking around the valve stem. I took the stem out and added a piece of old tube to help seal it. Other times I just had to do a bunch of Stan's shaking. 

Are the Minions that come on the NX the EXO/Tubeless ones? Maybe the sidewalls aren't sealed up with Stan's yet? I've had several pairs of tires that first set up tubeless they leaked until they weeped enough out the sidewalls until the sealed up well. I even had a pair of used FBF's I put on this fall that had Orange Seal residue that still weeped Stan's out the sidewalls for a bit


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## Jeff_G (Oct 22, 2015)

They are the Minions, with pretty light tubes ironically. 

I didn't notice any weeping but I didn't ask the guy if he noticed it after he left my place. 

The front tire had a VERY large leak coming from the cutouts/spokeholes immediately after it was mounted.


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## Chinman (Dec 27, 2014)

If it is leaking around the cutouts and spokeholes, it's got to be leaking around the valve. If you did not build up the valve with the extra strip of rubber, that is probably why it is leaking. That is where I've had the most problem getting a good seal. This is really the weakest link with the fatty stripper.


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## smporter (Jul 25, 2012)

Hi-diddly-ho, neighboreenos!

I am going to go the split tube method on some 29ers, 26ers and some 24ers (I have some of the 24" Large Marges Surly made).

So my understanding is that I should use the following tubes for these various wheel sizes

29er- 24" tubes
26er - 20" tubes
24er - ? 18" or 16" any ideas?

What size tube should I use for the 24er. A 18" or a 16"?

Also what tube width tube should I use for these various rims. The 24 and 26 rims are both 65mm wide and the 29 is 31.5 mm wide? (Also is split tube just a fat bike thing, or can I do it on the skinny 31.5mm 29er rims?)

Thanks


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## baltobrewer (Apr 22, 2015)

Used Tyvek tape (1.88" width) to set up tubeless on my 65mm carbon LB fatbike rims. Went on super easy and holding air without issue. Aired up with a floor pump.


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## Averbuks (Oct 24, 2014)

Schwalbe tubeless 40mm valve stems are the best for fat rims. There is enough thread for shallow rim installs easily


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

smporter said:


> Hi-diddly-ho, neighboreenos!
> 
> I am going to go the split tube method on some 29ers, 26ers and some 24ers (I have some of the 24" Large Marges Surly made).
> 
> ...


I have used a 24" tube on a 26" wheel with great success. Using a tube that is 2" smaller than the rim regardless of the rim size should work. Obviously they do not make a 22, so I would try a 20" tube on a 24" rim.

For a 80mm rim, a 2.4-2.75" tube will work. I have found that Q-Tubes makes a 24"x2.4-2.75" with a removable core presta valve.

To size the tube, use the small number (in this case 2.4) divide by two to get the radius, then multiply by pi, the convert from inches to mm. The math looks like this 2.4/2 x 3.14 x 25.4 mm/in = 95.7mm. That is roughly the width of the split tube once cut open. While I have not tried it on a 100mm rim, I expect you would get enough stretch to make it work.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

This is where I bought my "vaporware" (aka Zip Flashing Tape):

Zip System Flashing Tape 3 3/4" 90&apos; Water Sealing Tape S-13773 | eBay

It stretches nicely for a wrinkle free install, is easy to trim and can be removed if needed.

BTW, it is made for building components called Zip Wall. One could find the local retailer of Zip Wall and get the tape there. (hint, its likely a lumberyard)


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## solarplex (Apr 11, 2014)

Im trying sunringle tape and because i always have issues with stans valves i got e thirteens. Hopefully they tighten up against the rim... seems like they give you a bunch of spacers and o rings.... fingers crossed.


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## WarMachine1804 (Oct 10, 2017)

Just went tubeless yesterday on tuesday

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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

I have two sets of wheels, a good set that I swap between studded Dillingers for winter and good rolling Knards for the summer. My stock wheelset is fitted with some Framed Minnesota tires for the transition times of spring and fall. Both wheelsets are set up tubeless. I just swapped. To my transition wheelset. The damn front wheel would not hold air for longer than an hour. In tearing it apart I found that on the Rolling Daryl I had used Orange Seal tape with a narrow strip of Tesa tape on each side to make it a bit wider. Orange Seal valve stem was installed without an o-ring or other additional gasket. The Orange Seal tape seemed like it had degraded over a year and a half.

The fix:

Removal of all tape
Install of Zip tape filling entire bed
Install gasket on stem made of a small piece in inner tube with hole made with paper punch.
3-4 oz home brew sealant ( 1:3 latex and windshield washer fluid & a bit of glitter)

Result:

Rock solid. It sealed without even having to take it for a ride. :thumbsup:

Dillingers swapped onto the Mulefuts with existing Zip tape with no problem.

Bottom line, the Zip tape seems to hold up better than Orange Seal and the added thickness helps the bead to seal.


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## Troy Carter (Dec 7, 2016)

Well, I've converted my studded Wazia's for this winter. My first time going tubeless and I used the split tube method as described here with a foam filler to allow the tire to seat to the bead. I used 24" fat bike tubes and they worked perfectly with the Rolling Daryl rims and Terrene tires.



















My daily wheel may be next after seeing how easy this is to get rolling but I'm curious if you can reuse the split tube to swap tires or if it's too narrow after cutting around the bead to have it seat again?


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## bme107 (Jul 23, 2008)

Troy Carter said:


> ..... I'm curious if you can reuse the split tube to swap tires or if it's too narrow after cutting around the bead to have it seat again?


I reuse mine. Depends on how close you trimmed the tube and how much you want to fiddle with it to get positioned the 2nd time around.


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## Paul Fithian (Dec 28, 2017)

solarplex said:


> Im trying sunringle tape and because i always have issues with stans valves i got e thirteens. Hopefully they tighten up against the rim... seems like they give you a bunch of spacers and o rings.... fingers crossed.


Use a No. 14 nylon finishing washer, install with the tapered side toward the rim. This lets the valve rubber projecting through the rim go into an open space, which helps prevent distortion and improves the seal.

Any good hardware store will have these on the shelf.


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## Dr Sloth (Mar 6, 2005)

EDIT: Was able to make a trip into the Denver area and found some ZIP System tape at Lowes. It was a major issue to find it in the store, was not in the area listed online for that specific store. Location was in building materials very close to sheet rock tape/trowels.

Zip tape looks to be of excellent quality.


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## Dr Sloth (Mar 6, 2005)

Reporting back after the tubeless conversion using ZIP System tape and Stan's sealant.

Removed tire/tube from the wheel and cleaned of all dirt with a clean towel. The tape was a bit difficult to apply on the first wheel. Had to remove the first taping attempt but then honed my skills applying the tape the second go around. I found that it was easiest to apply the tape about 5-6" while pressing into the one sidewall of the 80mm rim. With the roll of tape balanced on top, I then pressed the same 5-6" section of tape into the flat section of the rim, filling in the cutout holes, then pressed that same section into the opposite sidewall. I was able to get the tape pressed in with minimal creases on the flat section and no creases on the sidewalls. I did need to trim the tape on the 2nd sidewall but only trimmed at the top of the sidewall. From there, went around both tape edges and pressed the tape edges all the way around.

Set my valves. Put the tires on, which were tires I had already been using with tubes. Then laid that wheel with tire on a 5 gal plastic bucket. Removed the valve core and sprayed a mildly soapy water mixture to wet the tire bead all the way around without spraying too much for it to drip into the tire. Did that on both sides. Then aired up using my compressor. Tire aired up without problem and soapy bubbles did form around the tire bead. Let the compressed air escape and added 6oz of Stan's Sealant. Installed valve core and aired to max of 30 psi. I then sloshed the Stan's around to make sure and coat the entire inside of the tire/bead. No more bubbles forming. Laid the tire back on the 5 gal bucket and sprayed the soapy mixture again around the entire bead area, no bubbles forming on either side.

Aired down to about 12 psi both tires. Let it sit for about 3-4 hours. Then aired down to 9F and 10.5R and went for a ride in dry conditions. Short 6 mile ride on trail but when returned home, no air loss. Check this morning and tire pressure on both tires down about .25 psi per tire but it is about 30 degrees cooler today than yesterday so the cold might be impacting the psi.

Overall, other than the first tape attempt, a very problem free tubeless conversion using the Zip System tape recommended in this thread. I will say that I have done tubeless conversions before but on standard size MTB tires.


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## Verbl Kint (Feb 14, 2013)

If you prick us, do we not bleed?









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## Turd (Jul 21, 2005)

Blizzerk 80mm, had a hell of a time getting the front set up with my conventual tape method. For the rear, I was frustrated and just decided I wanted to see what would happen if I basically just put the tire on without at tube. The oem(?) rim strip was already wall to wall so I just put a small patch of flashing tape over the valve hole and smeared some cyanoacrylates over the pinned joint. I'm at a loss, been holding air since installed (8 days)


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## Turd (Jul 21, 2005)

Anyone have a clue why this was so simple? The wheelset was loade before converting tubeless. Perhaps the rim strip formed perfectly wall to wall over months of sitting in box with tire/tube. The rim strip tolerance was tight enough that simpley setting the tire and sealing the valve hole was sufficient?


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## Chinman (Dec 27, 2014)

Just like a marge lite with a clown shoe rim strip. If you can find a strip that’s the right width, it works great. I have more than a year on my marge lites with no issues at all.


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## Gambit21 (Feb 6, 2015)

Dr Sloth said:


> Overall, other than the first tape attempt, a very problem free tubeless conversion using the Zip System tape recommended in this thread. I will say that I have done tubeless conversions before but on standard size MTB tires.


Good job!
You're obviously way smarter than watermonkey.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Gambit21 said:


> Good job!
> You're obviously way smarter than watermonkey.


Well, he is a Dr. I only play one on TV.


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## DirtyHun (Jan 9, 2011)

Converted my front to split tube with OS Endurance for the new JJ 4.8 I mounted. So far, seems to be holding.


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## mesa3077boogie (Mar 14, 2018)

Hello all. I am a week into my ghetto tubeless and have a puncture and tear which will require me to remove my tire. 

With that I have some questions that I hope you can help me with. 

Background: ghetto tubeless on a 2018 mongoose argus comp with stock wheels using vinyl cabinet liner vinyl for the padding and spacing and gorilla tape for the initial seal. Sealed on the first try last week. Road about 40 to 50 miles so far with no issues. Neither tire or rim is tubeless ready. 4.9" 140 TPI ARISUN big fatty 26 tires. 100mm exposure rims with big holes.

I need to remove the tire completely to stitch another side wall, patch it and patch a puncture from today's ride. 

Questions:
1) Are there any precautions when pouring out the existing Orange seal into a container for recycling it back into the wheel when I'm done later?

2) Should I clean all of the existing or potentially dried orange seal completely off the rim and around valve or is it okay and/or advised to leave some? I'm thinking that the overlapped bead hook (per my method) needs to be clean and of course the inside of the tire where I need to patch it. 

3) I'm sure there is build up around the valve stem but I kind of want to keep that as is. What do you think does that need to be clean and redone as well? 

I haven't taken the tire off yet but I'm nervous of what it looks like on the inside and to have to redo it since things went so perfectly last week.. 

4) I have no orange seal available to me or at any LBS. I only currently own and have access to some green slime. There is stans available but I can't do a $35 LBS premium this week.. I think I need to use at least 1 to 2 oz of slime mixed with orange seal to get things back up to a full eight ounces. Is it ok to mix these sealants?

Cheers and thanks in advance for chiming in on my questions.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

If you have a tear in the tire the tire is done. You cant run it tubeless anymore.

If it was a simple small puncture the sealant should have taken care of it.

Slime from most stores is completely useless for this purpose. Doesnt not seal a low pressure tire, so a waste of money there. Slime can be mixed with some sealants (ok with older stans) but may not seal tire correctly. 

And no never clean the tire out. You will open any punctures the sealant already took care of.

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## mesa3077boogie (Mar 14, 2018)

I had a 1 inch side wall tear that was stitched up and patched before running tubeless and no issues there. So my thoughts are to patch this one all the same which would require cleaning the tire.

There is no leak on the sidewall since the tear is not all the way through. however I will still patch it. the orange seal did seal the puncture today but took a bit longer than I expected. 

since there is a sidewall tear I am also going to repair the puncture and clean off the orange seal from the inside since I am in there.

I won't mix into slime then and guess I will just have to wait until I can get more orange seal


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## sryanak (Aug 9, 2008)

I never put more than 4 oz of Stanz in my 4" tires so maybe you could get by with less than 8 oz of Orange Seal. See how much you can save, if it's 6 oz or more go for it and try a short ride first just in case.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

sryanak said:


> I never put more than 4 oz of Stanz in my 4" tires so maybe you could get by with less than 8 oz of Orange Seal. See how much you can save, if it's 6 oz or more go for it and try a short ride first just in case.


Agreed.


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## Indywoods (Apr 1, 2017)

Complete newbie, thorns have been a nightmare with my Specialized Fatboy Ground Control tires and tubes. Tried the goriila tape method w/ 6 oz Stan's and Stan's valves. I did need a compressor to get them to air up. Was ready to give up on the system after 3 days or not holding air for 24 hrs. Then on the 4th day checked and both tires held beautifully, and have done so for a week. The only reason I didn't take it apart right away was because I was too busy. 

I rode in my woods last night with are nothing but thorns and didn't have any issues this morning. My advice is hang in there and don't ditch it too quickly. So far I super happy with the set up. I think by issues were due to the crappy tires, but the Stan's did it's magic and all is good for now.


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