# Honda DH Bikes



## E86 (Jun 24, 2006)

Have any magazines ever covered this bike in detail? Just curious what makes it so special. I heard that they do not let prying eyes look too much. If anybody can point me in a direction, it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.


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## stingray_coach (Jun 27, 2006)

A couple of years ago one of the mtb mag had a good write-up on it. I was at our local DH and some Japanese test riders where testing and parked next to us and let us look over the bike. If you ever see a CR250 motocross bike, there are alot of similarities only smaller. I asked if I could ride it, but that was going too far. It is a nice bike for sure. I am not sure if they are ever going to sell them to the public though. I would love one.:thumbsup:



E86 said:


> Have any magazines ever covered this bike in detail? Just curious what makes it so special. I heard that they do not let prying eyes look too much. If anybody can point me in a direction, it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.


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## Sudden_Judgement (Sep 13, 2006)

The Giant Red Motorcycle Manufacturer, 
Honda Motor Co. has built a bicycle, but this is no ordinary penny farthing. Called the RN01, this competition-spec downhill bike is entered into both the 2003 All - Japan Downhill Championship and the World Cup. Honda's R&D departments are using these events to further develop the bike's performance. The bike is massively influence by Honda's motocross bikes, featuring KAYABA suspension and Honda-built gearing system frame. ( Yokko - From Australian Mountain Bike - June 2003)

(Photo courtesty of world.honda.com)

Honda Motor Co., Ltd., as part of its ongoing commitment to spread the dream of mobility, has developed a mountain bike for downhill competitions called the RN01*1 ("RN zero one"), which it will enter in the 2003 Japan Series (all races) and the World Cup (spot participation) in order to develop further technical know-how and enhance the bike's performance.

Machine development and team management will be overseen by Honda R&D Co., Ltd.'s Asaka R&D Center - Honda's motorcycle research and development division - as part of its R&D activities. The team assembled to compete in the 2003 season will be called Team G Cross Honda*2, and the rider will be Naoki Idegawa, who was ranked 68th in the world and 5th in the Japan Series for 2002. 
Distinguishing characteristics of the RN01 include a frame that has been subjected to rigorous strength analysis and reinforced in those sections where the stresses are greatest, plus the use of a suspension made by Kayaba Industry Co., Ltd. The brakes, developed in partnership with Akebono Brake Industry Co., Ltd., are lightweight and deliver superior braking and control. A transmission mechanism employing such newly developed technology as frame mounting for reduced unsprung weight is being tried out for the first time on this bike. .

How the names were chosen: 
*1 The "RN01" machine name: The name combines R and N, which stand for Racing and Natural force ("nature's power"), followed by "01" to indicate that this is the first model. 
*2 The "G Cross" team name: The name is a combination of G for Gravity and the 'Cross' from motocross.

archives from www.mbaction.com


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## derfernerf (Jun 25, 2006)

i heard there $8000+


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## RideFaster (Dec 18, 2004)

E86 said:


> Have any magazines ever covered this bike in detail? Just curious what makes it so special. I heard that they do not let prying eyes look too much. If anybody can point me in a direction, it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.


I thought it was made my Turner. Saw several at Mt.Snow and they all looked like the DHR or whatever it's called.

Also, they look like they weigh 70+ LBS.


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## Tarekith (Mar 9, 2005)

derfernerf said:


> i heard there $8000+


Actually wasn't that $80,000? No idea how realistic that is, not like you can buy one anyway.


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## Eric Hoefer (Jan 19, 2004)

Are you guys talking about this bike?









If so its really interesting looking.


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## Gman (Mar 31, 2005)

pretty sure it was made to test a motorcycle style suspension. never intended for public use


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## evannever (Jun 28, 2005)

All it needs is a deployable wing.

Notice the dee trax/dee max up front and the other mavic in the rear.


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## RFD (Sep 28, 2005)

RideFaster said:


> I thought it was made my Turner. Saw several at Mt.Snow and they all looked like the DHR or whatever it's called.
> 
> Also, they look like they weigh 70+ LBS.


the American automotive division of Honda sponsors a team. That team has ridden Turner bikes in the past, and is now riding Iron Horse bikes. This is completely different from the Honda G-Cross team.

http://www.dhracers.com/

https://www.23degrees-sports.com/teamgcrosshonda.php


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## xKREDx (Aug 8, 2006)

Tarekith said:


> Actually wasn't that $80,000? No idea how realistic that is, not like you can buy one anyway.


80,000 holy thats more then a nice sports car isn't 80 grand a bit a high a bike. I heard that the bike would cost 13,000.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2006)

derfernerf said:


> i heard there $8000+


More than that....


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

i heard 9k, and maybe in production in a year or 2. And it weighs 41 lbs.


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## Rover Nick (Jul 13, 2006)

From what I heard is that they put $80,000 into R&D to develop the bike, thats not actually the sticker price(if there even is one)


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Eric Hoefer said:


> Are you guys talking about this bike?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


still a POS single pivot


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## rocpyro (Feb 7, 2005)

RideFaster said:


> I thought it was made my Turner.


That is the stupidest thing Ive ever heard. Do you know how involved Honda is w/ manufacturing anything and everything? STFU noob........


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> still a POS single pivot


yeah, just like 99% of ALL motorcycles out there...  I don't recall the theory of "more pivots = better" ever being proved...

At this point, I'm wondering more about the Kayaba suspension actually. if it has just straight mx style internals or what... 
they could very easily follow marzocchi's path (and progressive) in the coming years, and cross over to bikes to offer some more competition... I'm actually really surprised now that I think about it, that there isn't a Japanese company with offerings in the suspension market for bikes... they make just about everything else.... Showa Suspension could do the same thing as well (which I thought Honda actually collaborated with more than Kayaba, but apparantly not in this case).

and $80,000 for r&d doesn't seem unreasonable at all for a corporation the size of Honda. I beleive it was a carbon fiber Yeti in the 90's that was designed by another automotive racing company (I forgot off the top of my head) that spent something like Half a MIL on r&d and only made a handful of bikes... I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment.


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## Razr (Feb 17, 2006)

Isn't this the bike Gregg Minnar rides? I heard they were going to produce a limited run for public sale next year.


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## PrincipalRider (Jun 24, 2005)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> still a POS single pivot


Yeah, stupid POS single pivots. I bet Greg Minaar didn't win a single race on that shite.


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

All I know about those bikes is that they are loud! Sounds like they are dragging garbage bags full of empty beer cans behind them. 
Bike shifts while coasting or pedaling and there is an awesome skidplate on the bottom. 
But yeah it is just a POS single pivot:thumbsup: 
Single pivot bikes rock! I have been riding them for the past 2 years and have liked each bike a lot.


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## RideFaster (Dec 18, 2004)

rocpyro said:


> That is the stupidest thing Ive ever heard. Do you know how involved Honda is w/ manufacturing anything and everything? STFU noob........


No, I don't know how involved Honda is w/manufacturing and everything.

Please, do continue.


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## derfernerf (Jun 25, 2006)

i got an action pic lemme see if i can post it...


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

BikeSATORI said:


> yeah, just like 99% of ALL motorcycles out there...  I don't recall the theory of "more pivots = better" ever being proved...
> 
> .


um hum.........a motor and a pedaler..............think about it:nono:


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

NMPhi767 said:


> Yeah, stupid POS single pivots. I bet Greg Minaar didn't win a single race on that shite.


greg would win it on any bike,,....................got anything better.........next !!!!!!


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## ianjenn (Aug 1, 2004)

They are using SHOWA stuff. I took that pic BTW. My friend works for Showa and there is stuff going on with the "MTB" division of Honda. He said it would not suprise him if they release the bikes to public!


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2006)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> um hum.........a motor and a pedaler..............think about it:nono:


Exactly, last time I checked, engines dont bounce up and down making the suspension bob.....


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> um hum.........a motor and a pedaler..............think about it:nono:


I don't think this is the place to discuss it really, and I've got nothing to prove on top of it. Take it up with the engineers at honda, among others that produce these single pivot bikes. I'm sure it goes far far beyond the fact that one is pedal powered, and one is combustion engined powered.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

BikeSATORI said:


> I don't think this is the place to discuss it really, and I've got nothing to prove on top of it. Take it up with the engineers at honda, among others that produce these single pivot bikes. I'm sure it goes far far beyond the fact that one is pedal powered, and one is combustion engined powered.


yeah the whole riding style is different.....weight isn't as much of a factor....hitting jumps you open the throttle more......stable platform shocks.......brake jack isn't as much because the rock gardens are usually not as bad....you right there isn't an arguement


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## Red Bull (Aug 27, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> yeah the whole riding style is different.....weight isn't as much of a factor....hitting jumps you open the throttle more......stable platform shocks.......brake jack isn't as much because the rock gardens are usually not as bad....you right there isn't an arguement


Shiver and Jake you're wrong. Braking bumps on a moto track are worse than most rock gardens you will ever see. I would ride a single pivot over believing in VPP and other suspension hype. You won't be faster on either.

By the way, you do realize the old V-10 used to come with a Floater because it suffered from "brake jack" and the pedaling still sucks.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2006)

Red Bull said:


> By the way, you do realize the old V-10 used to come with a Floater because it suffered from "brake jack" and the pedaling still sucks.


The pedalling sucks, good one :thumbsup:


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Red Bull said:


> Shiver and Jake you're wrong. Braking bumps on a moto track are worse than most rock gardens you will ever see. I would ride a single pivot over believing in VPP and other suspension hype. You won't be faster on either.
> .


actually they are grooved the same way on a track....and whoop de do's are single bumbs in a row....which you use speed to get over.......brake jack is when you hit your brakes over bumps....usually you are not on your brakes when riding a motorcycle and besides 30 mph is way different then 5 to 10mph

so who is wrong???


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## Red Bull (Aug 27, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> The pedalling sucks, good one :thumbsup:


It does. It's aweful.

If any bike is setup right the pedaling shouldn't feel too bad. You go ahead and think your V-10 pedals amazing. Any bike with a dumb platform shock should pedal alright. VPP hype is ********.


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## Red Bull (Aug 27, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> actually they are grooved the same way on a track....and whoop de do's are single bumbs in a row....which you use speed to get over.......brake jack is when you hit your brakes over bumps....usually you are not on your brakes when riding a motorcycle and besides 30 mph is way different then 5 to 10mph
> 
> so who is wrong???


You are dumb. I said braking bumps on a moto track. Not whoops.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

Red Bull said:


> You are dumb. I said braking bumps on a moto track. Not whoops.


ok so I missed that, but here catch this clue.........it still isn't as bad because of the speed....no comparison between 25 to 40 mph and 35 to 10 mph


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## zachdank (Jun 15, 2005)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> ok so I missed that, but here catch this clue.........it still isn't as bad because of the speed....no comparison between 25 to 40 mph and 35 to 10 mph


Single pivot, horst, VPP. It doesn't matter what suspension you ride Bob. You will still be the slowest person i have ever ridden with.:yawn: I don't know how you could even tell the difference in suspension designs at your level.:skep:


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

zachdank said:


> Single pivot, horst, VPP. It doesn't matter what suspension you ride Bob. You will still be the slowest person i have ever ridden with.:yawn: I don't know how you could even tell the difference in suspension designs at your level.:skep:


boy that is so cool that you ride with very fast people


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Red Bull said:


> You are dumb. I said braking bumps on a moto track. Not whoops.


Any one who has ever raced moto knows that braking bumps are vicious and evil. On a hard pack, blue groove track they get very sharp and square edged, like potholes. Wicked and pounding to the rider. On softer tracks they're usually a little more rolling, but also usually deeper, sometimes as deep as the suspension has travel, so when your suspension stops working when you hit the brakes, extra evil.

BTW, those braking bumps are not groomed intot he track, or made intentionally, they're caused by, braking!, and the suspension unably to react properly.

Floating brakes are coming back to moto. It makes too much sense.


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> yeah the whole riding style is different.....weight isn't as much of a factor....hitting jumps you open the throttle more......stable platform shocks.......brake jack isn't as much because the rock gardens are usually not as bad....you right there isn't an arguement
> ok so I missed that, but here catch this clue.........it still isn't as bad because of the speed....no comparison between 25 to 40 mph and 35 to 10 mph


wait, so this argument supports or opposes single pivots? I think you lost your path a few posts up with my incredibly generalized statement.



> usually you are not on your brakes when riding a motorcycle


so you are on your brakes more on a bike?



> so who is wrong???


wrong at what? nobody here has even proven anything... where are you even headed with this thing... single pivot vs. other, motorcycle vs. bike, you vs. me, you vs. honda engineer, 25-40mph vs. 10-35mph, brake jack vs. brake whack... ?


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> ok so I missed that, but here catch this clue.........it still isn't as bad because of the speed....no comparison between 25 to 40 mph and 35 to 10 mph


The speed isn't really the deciding factor. It's the amount of decelleration, and the size of the bumps.

For example, slowing from 40 to 20, can be just as bad or worse as slowing from 60 to 40, or vice versa, depending on how quickly the decel occurs, and what size bumps you're encountering.

BTW, the reason I started putting floating brakes on DH bikes, was that I raced motox with floating brakes, and knew the difference it made...


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

BikeSATORI said:


> wrong at what? nobody here has even proven anything... where are you even headed with this thing... single pivot vs. other, motorcycle vs. bike, you vs. me, you vs. honda engineer, 25-40mph vs. 10-35mph, brake jack vs. brake whack... ?


I give.....that was too funny:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

threads like this make me embarrassed to even know SMT.......


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2006)

Red Bull said:


> It does. It's aweful.
> 
> If any bike is setup right the pedaling shouldn't feel too bad. You go ahead and think your V-10 pedals amazing. Any bike with a dumb platform shock should pedal alright. VPP hype is ********.


you are the best.


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## Phil Winn (May 11, 2005)

Ok guys, sorry to chime in when i don't know you guys but i've read several articles about this bike. I really think Greg has an advantage racing this bike over traditional drive terrain bikes and it has little to do with the suspension. 

First... $80-100k is about right for the "Build Cost" of Greg Minnaar's bike. The R&D cost is a lot higher. They had like 8 Engineer at Honda for 2 years developing this bike, so the cost in salary alone is more than 80k(much more). The gear box was reportly in the $40-60k range (to make), why.. b/c they used some carbon fiber laying technique that they use in Formula One racing(MBA 2004). The production model will get some plastic covering (that's what i've heard). Yes, I've heard there will be a produciton model w/o fancy carbon fiber covering, without fork and wheels. Basically a frame, rear shock for around 10-12k.

The most recent information I've read about this bike is VERY VERY interesting. Greg himself admits this bike rides and handles different than any other bike.

"Honda wanted to have the best bike out there and I think they've got it. It's pretty special - not having a regular chain drive but the gearbox. The internal gears make the handling of the bike a lot different." GM. 

What is he talking about.? I think what he's talking about is this. 

Well the bike is very loud b/c the rear wheel, rear gear, chain and internal gears are ALWAYS moving. that's why you can shift w/o pedalling b/c the gears are moving internally. While this bike is moving downhill the internal gears generates inertia and actually gets the bike moving faster and faster w/o pedalling. why is this different than a normal bike picking up speed? a normal bike picking up speed downhill is using it's weight, angle of slope and wind resistance. this bike also has an internal gearbox that is spinning constantly and driving the rear wheel into the ground. 

The handling is different in corners as well. Hit a turn in your car and downshift and you'll have all kinds of control due to engine speed controlling the wheel. Now hit that same corner and put your car in neutral and see what type of handling you get. We are ALL riding bikes in corners in neutral my friend....! unless your riding a RNO1 or GT I-Box. 

I've read a lot and have had conversations with riders and Engineers. And of course this is ALL in my opinion. 

P"


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## Red Bull (Aug 27, 2004)

Phil Winn said:


> Ok guys, sorry to chime in when i don't know you guys but i've read several articles about this bike. I really think Greg has an advantage racing this bike over traditional drive terrain bikes and it has little to do with the suspension.
> 
> First... $80-100k is about right for the "Build Cost" of Greg Minnaar's bike. The R&D cost is a lot higher. They had like 8 Engineer at Honda for 2 years developing this bike, so the cost in salary alone is more than 80k(much more). The gear box was reportly in the $40-60k range (to make), why.. b/c they used some carbon fiber laying technique that they use in Formula One racing(MBA 2004). The production model will get some plastic covering (that's what i've heard). Yes, I've heard there will be a produciton model w/o fancy carbon fiber covering, without fork and wheels. Basically a frame, rear shock for around 10-12k.
> 
> ...


I typed up a decent sized post the other day and then my computer froze. Thanks for not making me type it again! You even gave me more information than I even knew.


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## zachdank (Jun 15, 2005)

Red Bull said:


> I typed up a decent sized post the other day and then my computer froze. Thanks for not making me type it again!


Yeah, me too. He pretty much summed up everything i typed before my computer froze up.:idea:


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## Red Bull (Aug 27, 2004)

zachdank said:


> Yeah, me too. He pretty much summed up everything i typed before my computer froze up.:idea:


:thumbsup:


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

Well said young man, too bad the turd that has the hots for guys with wooden legs and eye patches still thinks it is a POS single pivot


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## Zaphoid (Apr 1, 2005)

Phil Winn said:


> Ok guys, sorry to chime in when i don't know you guys but i've read several articles about this bike. I really think Greg has an advantage racing this bike over traditional drive terrain bikes and it has little to do with the suspension.
> 
> First... $80-100k is about right for the "Build Cost" of Greg Minnaar's bike. The R&D cost is a lot higher. They had like 8 Engineer at Honda for 2 years developing this bike, so the cost in salary alone is more than 80k(much more). The gear box was reportly in the $40-60k range (to make), why.. b/c they used some carbon fiber laying technique that they use in Formula One racing(MBA 2004). The production model will get some plastic covering (that's what i've heard). Yes, I've heard there will be a produciton model w/o fancy carbon fiber covering, without fork and wheels. Basically a frame, rear shock for around 10-12k.
> 
> ...


Hey any chance u could better explain your theory on how that drive train works? Im trying to understand how they could be continually moving without some kind of outside input. This would most likely come from the rear tire spining the chain but then there is no way for the chain to be putting force back onto the rear tire to increase its rotating speed.???

I dunno i think im confused any chance you could clear this up??


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

Phil Winn said:


> Ok guys, sorry to chime in when i don't know you guys but i've read several articles about this bike. I really think Greg has an advantage racing this bike over traditional drive terrain bikes and it has little to do with the suspension.
> 
> First... $80-100k is about right for the "Build Cost" of Greg Minnaar's bike. The R&D cost is a lot higher. They had like 8 Engineer at Honda for 2 years developing this bike, so the cost in salary alone is more than 80k(much more). The gear box was reportly in the $40-60k range (to make), why.. b/c they used some carbon fiber laying technique that they use in Formula One racing(MBA 2004). The production model will get some plastic covering (that's what i've heard). Yes, I've heard there will be a produciton model w/o fancy carbon fiber covering, without fork and wheels. Basically a frame, rear shock for around 10-12k.
> 
> ...


hey, nice write up, def. interesting stuff, the next step for bikes for sure.... 
but now that I read that part in your quote that I highlighted here, how can NORBA and other race sanctioning agencies allow this? Seems a bit out of the books... I'm in no way against it, but I'm sure someone out there has to have negative opinions of bikes that have sh!t spinning inside to build up extra intertia/speed..... ???



> This would most likely come from the rear tire spining the chain but then there is no way for the chain to be putting force back onto the rear tire to increase its rotating speed.???


This bike, and other g-boxx bikes have two separate chains, an input chain from the cranks to the transmission, and a chain connecting the gearbox to the rear wheel (which in the RNO1's case apparantly stays spinning so you can shift, even though the other chain and cranks have stopped pedal input).


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## Ojai Bicyclist (Nov 4, 2005)

He's got it the other way around. The wheel drives the gears around. Yes, there's inertia there, but they don't _power_ the bike by themselves. They just act like a wheel.

I could see that making the bike turn harder because of the gyroscopic force.


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## scabrider (Oct 3, 2004)

yeah. the bike has a gyro thing that powers you out or corners, but it makes braking really difficult...


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

The freewheel is inside the gear box not on the cog in the back. The cog/gear in back is fixed so the chain moves as long as the wheel moves, so inside the gear box you can shift any time there is wheel movement. Same as an internally geared shimano hub that comes on a commuter bike.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Phil Winn said:


> "Honda wanted to have the best bike out there and I think they've got it. It's pretty special - not having a regular chain drive but the gearbox. The internal gears make the handling of the bike a lot different." GM.
> 
> What is he talking about.? I think what he's talking about is this.
> 
> ...


There are a couple major problems with your analysis. The first very major flaw, is in thinking that somehow the spinning of the internal gearbox could in any way shape or form, power the rear wheel. This, in fact, would constitute a perpetual motion machine.

Now, I'm all for violaing the laws of physics, but if we had a perpetual motion machine, we damn sure wouldn't be worried about oil. The problem is, you just can't get more energy output than input.

The rear wheel is what is "powering" and causing the gearbox to spin. This takes energy. So if you're coasting, a normal bike will accelerate faster (down a hill), because it does not have the extra drag/energy drain of having to spin the gearbox. There is just no way the spinning gearbox can cause the bike to go faster and faster without pedalling.

What this spinning gearbox can do is store energy. Of course it can't store any more energy than was originally input, which was the drag i mentioned earlier. Nothing is free.

This stored energy could help the bike continue to roll, which actually means that it would be harder to stop. Think big flywheel, more energy to accelerate, more energy to decelerate.

Now I suppose, coming out of a corner, you could theoretically accelerate faster, because when you pedal, you don't have to get the chain/drivetrain up to speed.

your analogy to a car in neutral is also a little off base. When cornering in a car (or motorcycle), whether you are on or off the throttle or brakes definitely affects the handling. But whether this is a good or bad thing depends on how the vehicle is handling in the first place.

For example, if a car is prone to oversteer (the back wheels slide first), downshifting, or braking into the corner is guaranteed to send you off the track, back end first. In that situation, you'd be better off in neutral. If the car is prone to understeer (front wheels slide first), then the act of braking or downshifting causes load transfer to the front, helping the front tires bite, and helping the car turn.

I'm sure one of the MAJOR effects on the handling of the bike is that the unsprung weight (the weight of anything that moves up and down with the wheel) is much less, and also, the c.g. of th ebike is much more centralized, potentially allowing quicker direction changes (inertia effect ignored for the moment.)

Hope this helps.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

NMPhi767 said:


> Yeah, stupid POS single pivots. I bet Greg Minaar didn't win a single race on that shite.


And guess what, it IS just a single pivot pos. It might be the most expensive, with the most developed shock and fork, and an army of engineers, with different chain pull characteristics, but in terms of wheel path, just another single pivot pos.

Did they win some races? Of course they did, but so did Steve Peat, Fabien Barel, Tracy Mosely, Cedric Gracia, Nico, AC and a whole bunch of other very talented riders that could beat us all on Huffy.

Bottom line, pos single pivot isn't so bad, despite what the marketing hype of many major bike companies may tell you.....


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## DWF (Jan 12, 2004)

shock said:


> There are a couple major problems with your analysis. The first very major flaw, is in thinking that somehow the spinning of the internal gearbox could in any way shape or form, power the rear wheel. This, in fact, would constitute a perpetual motion machine.
> 
> Now, I'm all for violaing the laws of physics, but if we had a perpetual motion machine, we damn sure wouldn't be worried about oil. The problem is, you just can't get more energy output than input.
> 
> ...


Thanks Brian, nice response. You saved me a lot of typing!

Important to note for the casual reader that even with the added inertia of the rotating bits in the gearbox, you will always get out _less_ that you put into it. Not equal unless there's some magic juju beans acting as seals and lubricating it and as Brian said, never, ever, ever, more.

Additional inertia (flywheel effect) could help a bike in the corners but, with a bicycle, you have no way of controlling it. Any positive flywheel effect would have to overcome the pedals which would mean you'd need a clutch or the pedals would autorotate. On motos, a heavy flywheel would be used to smooth power pulses and artificially dampen the reponse of the engine to throttle inputs and improve traction. On a bike, you just don't have the ability or capacity to make significant use of it, as least as it applies to DH racing.


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## umbertom (May 28, 2006)

shock said:


> Now, I'm all for violaing the laws of physics, but if we had a perpetual motion machine, we damn sure wouldn't be worried about oil.


 LOL


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## PrincipalRider (Jun 24, 2005)

shock said:


> And guess what, it IS just a single pivot pos. It might be the most expensive, with the most developed shock and fork, and an army of engineers, with different chain pull characteristics, but in terms of wheel path, just another single pivot pos.
> 
> Did they win some races? Of course they did, but so did Steve Peat, Fabien Barel, Tracy Mosely, Cedric Gracia, Nico, AC and a whole bunch of other very talented riders that could beat us all on Huffy.
> 
> Bottom line, pos single pivot isn't so bad, despite what the marketing hype of many major bike companies may tell you.....


Why do you have to call out a Huffy man? I mean, that is just rude.


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## hozzerr1 (Feb 26, 2005)

You all got it wrong.
Inertia
Perpetual Forces
Weigth transfer
Ever spinning components 

The gear box is empty!!! 
There might as well be a hamster in there.

This R/D was never about a gearbox, the gearbox was only a smokescreen.

The truth is this bike was the test ground for their new and improve materials that will be used in their new MX frames released in 2010 (I'm speaking metallurgic here).
The suspension was secondary.

Japan along with China and other power houses know that we will need another planet earth to dig out raw materials to stay with human development demands. This two countries are already working on their own proprietary metal developments. This new metals are what our future emision free vehicles will be built with, the edge will be first on the race scene. 

There, take that.


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## acdcfan1283 (Mar 20, 2004)

pretty sure the 80,000 price tag was in japanese currency, but i could be wrong. Really interesting to read about what everyone had to say about that bike, very confusing yet cool and out there heh


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

acdcfan1283 said:


> pretty sure the 80,000 price tag was in japanese currency, but i could be wrong. Really interesting to read about what everyone had to say about that bike, very confusing yet cool and out there heh


you do realize that 80,000 yen is equal to about $770. an easy way to look at it is 1 cent = 1 yen, but the yen has been down in the market for awhile now.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

btw bikeSATORI, having Led Zepellin I album cover avatar and a zep lyric quote is way cool...


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

NMPhi767 said:


> Why do you have to call out a Huffy man? I mean, that is just rude.


Guess I figured I was allowed since my very first MTB was a Huffy, a good solid 40 pound fully rigid bike (rigid except for the handlebars, wheels, frame, cranks, seatpost, stem or "gooseneck", fork...) It was a beauty....


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## acdcfan1283 (Mar 20, 2004)

BikeSATORI said:


> you do realize that 80,000 yen is equal to about $770. an easy way to look at it is 1 cent = 1 yen, but the yen has been down in the market for awhile now.


yea, thats why i said i thought, but wasnt sure. i have no clue how currency converts .


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## umbertom (May 28, 2006)

I believe I recall reading that in the old MBA article, the $80,000 was R&D not the pricetag
hmm new metal technology, sounds intresting


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## Hot Butter Topping (May 5, 2005)

The bike is powered by a wormhole that bends space and time and makes Greg Minaar appear, to untrained observers, as if he has some style and isn't really just a stiff boring rider with less flow than Stephen Hawkings..

The wormhole does not affect Greg Minaar's hair however, which even without the warped reality is quite sexy and flirty for Fall.


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## kruz (Nov 28, 2004)

Honda RN01 in Japan


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## Zaphoid (Apr 1, 2005)

Sick think anyone would actually buy them if they ever produced them


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## E86 (Jun 24, 2006)

Those are awesome pics:thumbsup: I think they look way better in those colors, than the bling bling that Greg M. and Matti run! I don't think anyone would be able to afford them if they sold them. They would probably be $$$$$$$$$$


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## boogenman (Sep 22, 2006)

I would save up and buy one for sure. 
I am a single pivot kind of guy


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

kruz said:


> Honda RN01 in Japan


yeah, great pictures... any idea where this is at in Japan? Nagano, Niigata, etc.?

I also like the colors much better....

These photos contradict (what I originally thought) and Ianjenn's statement about Showa Suspension. Here, obviously, well obviously labeled, they are using Kayaba Suspension... interesting. That is some serious machinery right there....


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## gline (Sep 5, 2006)

btw, the honda race bike that greg minaar uses isn't a single pivot like the old honda bikes, it is a 7" travel parallel link just like the canfield f1 but with 2" less travel.


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## Gemini2k05 (Apr 19, 2005)

Zaphoid said:


> Sick think anyone would actually buy them if they ever produced them


dude id totally save up and get one. After having 1 gearbox bike you can never go back.


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## mtbames190 (Nov 18, 2005)

hold on the suspension isnt kayaba, its showa, if im not mistaken??


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

*????????*



gline said:


> btw, the honda race bike that greg minaar uses isn't a single pivot like the old honda bikes, it is a 7" travel parallel link just like the canfield f1 but with 2" less travel.


where did you get this info? as far as I know (which isn't very far regarding this bike), Minaar's model design is the same as these shown, possibly with minor personal tweaks...


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

mtbames190 said:


> hold on the suspension isnt kayaba, its showa, if im not mistaken??


I thought the same thing originally, but not according to the pictures below taken in Japan...


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## Marshall Willanholly (Jan 27, 2004)

BikeSATORI said:


> I thought the same thing originally, but not according to the pictures below taken in Japan...


GM and Matti use Showa suspension. The racers in the Japanese series use Kayaba.


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

SkullCrack said:


> GM and Matti use Showa suspension. The racers in the Japanese series use Kayaba.


gotcha, thanks. just never made the separation in my head.


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## afliparlabill (Aug 7, 2006)

Some pics I took on the DH World Cup 06 in Vigo, Spain.


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

afliparlabill said:


> Some pics I took on the DH World Cup 06 in Vigo, Spain.


nice pics, thanks for posting.

looks like GM and Matti's versions are just a bit different than the Japanese circuit version - look at how the seatpost mast attaches on these version, then look at the Japanese versions.... minor differences in shape and size too, and how they bolt to the main frame. They also use different crank arms than the typical old XTR's... I'm not sure what they are.

what is that last bike pictured, 4X machine... don't know if I'm just behind or what, but I haven't seen anything on that before.


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## afliparlabill (Aug 7, 2006)

Yes, it´s the 4x bike.


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## gline (Sep 5, 2006)

i got the info on the parrel link honda by watching the canfield brothers interbike at pinkbike.com.
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Canfield Brothers Interbike 2006 Video.html

be patient, it is a few minutes long, but they actually specifically refer to honda racing using their same parralel link design. a bit of a surprise for me as well.


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## dminor (May 15, 2006)

Zaphoid said:


> Sick think anyone would actually buy them if they ever produced them


Naw . . . I'm waiting for the Yamaha


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## free-rider_down-hiller (Jun 1, 2005)

This thread had me laughing so hard i have to thank everyone who contributed!
Here are a few of the highlights.....

The gear box is empty!!! 
There might as well be a hamster in there

Now, I'm all for violaing the laws of physics,

All it needs is a deployable wing.

brake jack vs. brake whack... ?

That is the stupidest thing Ive ever heard STFU noob........


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## flymybike (Jan 6, 2004)

gline said:


> i got the info on the parrel link honda by watching the canfield brothers interbike at pinkbike.com.
> http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Canfield Brothers Interbike 2006 Video.html
> 
> be patient, it is a few minutes long, but they actually specifically refer to honda racing using their same parralel link design. a bit of a surprise for me as well.


Chris was talking about rearward wheel path as in a high pivot. GM honda is a single pivot ...


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

gline said:


> i got the info on the parrel link honda by watching the canfield brothers interbike at pinkbike.com.
> http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Canfield Brothers Interbike 2006 Video.html
> 
> be patient, it is a few minutes long, but they actually specifically refer to honda racing using their same parralel link design. a bit of a surprise for me as well.


I really didn't catch anything in there referring to honda... ? I watched if a few times too...


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## flymybike (Jan 6, 2004)

flymybike said:


> Chris was talking about rearward wheel path as in a high pivot. GM honda is a single pivot ...


...............


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## RaindogT (Oct 2, 2005)

shock said:


> .
> your analogy to a car in neutral is also a little off base. When cornering in a car (or motorcycle), whether you are on or off the throttle or brakes definitely affects the handling. But whether this is a good or bad thing depends on how the vehicle is handling in the first place.
> 
> For example, if a car is prone to oversteer (the back wheels slide first), downshifting, or braking into the corner is guaranteed to send you off the track, back end first. In that situation, you'd be better off in neutral. If the car is prone to understeer (front wheels slide first), then the act of braking or downshifting causes load transfer to the front, helping the front tires bite, and helping the car turn.
> ...


I'm on board with this to a certain point.... We need to qualify the car here. Front wheel drive or rear drive? A rear drive that 'suffers' from understeer will just keep plowing straight through the turn if you downshift and put more torque at the drive wheels. If your steering wheels are already sliding, putting more driving force behind those wheels will just keep them sliding. Weight transfer by braking would fix the understeer problem, but then you're loosing a bit of traction @ the rear wheel-- now you've got a major oversteer problem.

I'm no engineer, but when engineers do design and build the perfectly weighted and balanced bike, car, and motorcycle-- I'm going to be one broke mutha......


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

RaindogT said:


> I'm on board with this to a certain point.... We need to qualify the car here. Front wheel drive or rear drive? A rear drive that 'suffers' from understeer will just keep plowing straight through the turn if you downshift and put more torque at the drive wheels. If your steering wheels are already sliding, putting more driving force behind those wheels will just keep them sliding. Weight transfer by braking would fix the understeer problem, but then you're loosing a bit of traction @ the rear wheel-- now you've got a major oversteer problem.
> 
> I'm no engineer, but when engineers do design and build the perfectly weighted and balanced bike, car, and motorcycle-- I'm going to be one broke mutha......


Your kinda overlooking a few important things here. If you have a rear wheel drive car (or front, for that matter), and it's understeering, and you suddenly downshift, you will be very lucky if you don't spin off the track backwards. The engine braking will cause the back end to break loose. Now if you're downshifting and flooring the throttle, you still might go off backward, if the engine has enough power to break the back wheels loose.

But even lifting from the throttle will transfer "weight" from the rear to the front, increasing front bite and decreasing rear. This is true whether it's front, rear, or all wheel drive.

And there really is no such thing as "perfectly balanced", unless you're talking about one very specific type of corner or condition. Fast? Slow? On throttle? Off? Braking? Accelerating? Uphill? Downhill? All of these things change the balance, so it's all about the compromise the engineer chooses.


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## Zaphoid (Apr 1, 2005)

nah its a single pivot all right i mean just look at the link, there are no linkages what so ever


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## cam2Xrunner (Jun 27, 2006)

Look, I found a Honda DH bike for sale on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lightly-used-Ho...ryZ98083QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> still a POS single pivot


you really are retarded, dont you understand suspesion design is'nt what makes this bike, its the fork and shock, along with the gear box.

Linkage doesn't matter anymore, some may be better for differnt riders, but if your good it doesn't matter! It sounds like you need a design with lots of piviot or else you will complain about something you made up.


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## =ChrisB= (Aug 8, 2006)

Anyone hatin on SinglePivot is retarted. Single Pivot is badass.


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## yules (Jul 7, 2006)

Gemini2k05 said:


> i heard 9k, and maybe in production in a year or 2. And it weighs 41 lbs.


This bike will not be available any time soon.

It's just for PR, research and proof of concept regarding variable gearing in motorcycles.
You might see that technology in future dirt bikes, though.

80K in development? Think more like 1 million $$ - At least 5 man years in engineering (That's at least 500K), plus greg and the other racer's salary, plus logistics of flying around the world for a couple of years racing. Easy more than 1M. And that's small change for a company like Honda.


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## ChromedToast (Sep 19, 2006)

zachdank said:


> Single pivot, horst, VPP. It doesn't matter what suspension you ride Bob. You will still be the slowest person i have ever ridden with.:yawn: I don't know how you could even tell the difference in suspension designs at your level.:skep:


Being slow has no correlation with how much of a suspension nerd you are

I am lazy most of the time when DHing, most of the time I end up not even shifting.


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## Red Bull (Aug 27, 2004)

vpjackal989 said:


> you really are retarded, dont you understand suspesion design is'nt what makes this bike, its the fork and shock, along with the gear box.
> 
> Linkage doesn't matter anymore, some may be better for differnt riders, but if your good it doesn't matter! It sounds like you need a design with lots of piviot or else you will complain about something you made up.


buahahahahhahahaha


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## themarsvolta55 (Dec 23, 2004)

fuk All Of You <3


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