# Review: Pear-tune for Yamaha pedelec drives



## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Peartune for USA Yamaha Pedelec

Before I go any further, this may well void the warranty, and it may be possible to tell the device has been used even after it is removed by diagnostic. For a brand new bike I would ride it awhile to be sure everything is working fine before considering this mod. Not all of these devices work on USA pedelecs, so be careful which you choose, if you go this route.

Here is the product:
Peartune MSO Max Speed Off Yamaha Syncdrive Pedelec E Bike Tuning | eBay

Shipping was very fast to USA, to my surprise.

What does it do? Under 20mph, it does nothing. No extra power in any mode. When you first boot, the device is inactive, so the 20mph limit on assist is in place. If you press the light button, your boost mode will flash slowly, that means it's on. The assist limit of 20mph is removed. Another press on the light button will turn it off. Speed is accurately displayed in both modes.

When you ride a 250w pedelec off-road it is very rare on ST to even reach 20mph while pedaling and feel the limit:I never have. It would have to be a very friendly trail, and even though we have lots of local ST, I can't think of a single ST section where I would exceed 20 mph while pedaling, and it would be rare to exceed 15mph.

Motorized fire roads and paved roads are another matter. In Idaho the rules are: don't exceed 30mph or have more than 2hp if you want to be a "moped". Rules by state vary. So be aware and check your state. Anyway on a nice fire-road you often find yourself "bumping" the speed control which is distracting. It's not that you feel like going 30mph, which is screaming on a mtb frame, and so far I can't reach that speed even without speed control. But lots of times 23mph would be nice. With some effort I was able to reach 27.9 mph. So it's not going to turn your e-mtb into a fire breathing dragon, but you can cover some ground without the distraction of the speed control, when it's not required.

Once 250w pedelecs are allowed on non-motorised USFS trails with 20mph limit, I'll have no problem removing the device, or simply riding with the speed control with it's default "on", but for now the USFS and BLM are clueless and think these are motorcycles like a KTM etc. As I noted the point is really moot at the 250w level on ST, as you almost never go fast enough to hit the speed limiter anyway.

Installation for me (I take no responsibility for you ), was pretty easy. You pull the plastic skid plate: beware the small hex bolts may be loctited, take it easy, then pull the drive bolts excecpt one which you loosen, swing out the motor and tighten to hold it. You carefully unplug three wires by pushing on release clips, and the pear tune plugs go in. All are different so you can't screw up. The peartune does have a small circuit board, but it's well sealed. Last you tuck the wires so they are inside the frame and allow the drive to come back in. Be sure to that your rear wire has not become too tight if you have rear suspension. Then all bolts back in place, and there is no external difference from a stock bike.

All functions on display appear to work normally, including the speedo, which is accurate both with speed control on or off. Again by default it's off everytime you turn the bike on. HIt the light button and "high" begins to flash slowly. Now you can try to set a new speed record 

Battery use is unaffected below 20mph but of course it's going to use more if you are riding past that, does not seem to be huge though.

Though I think I have answered every question above, I'm sure we will have the haters chime in to claim all manner of things about this sort of thing, mainly that it proves they should never leave a motorised trail and how it really unleashes a beast. Of course almost none of them have ridden or even seen a e-mtb in person. I have one, and despite the inevitable noise from that faction, I felt the information is worthwhile for some of us.  The truth is the very tame nature of the 250w pedelecs is well preserved with this mod, but you might get to the store 3 minutes faster. For travel on motorised trails I see no moral issue whatever.


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

You guys are your own worst enemy.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Uhoh7; 

These gadgets/mods should be illegal and banned! 

You know I'm pro Ebike, but there is no need for this at all. If you really want a faster bike, why did you get an ebike? Get a motorcycle! 


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

+1 with Pinoy; the sierra dudes and equestrians have enough ammo without us supplying Howitzers.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Edited, point made.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Just one screen shot away from having this used against you, some of you guy's don't need enemies, you do all the work for them.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Its unfortunate that some people truly DONT understand that everyones concern is safety of everyone on the trail along with our trail access. 

Just because you can modify your rig, doesn't mean you should! You're on your own on this one.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

fos'l said:


> +1 with Pinoy; the sierra dudes and equestrians have enough ammo without us supplying Howitzers.


Fos'l, this goes way beyond that. Its so wrong on so many levels. It can be considered reckless endangerment and criminal negligence.

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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Fos'l, this goes way beyond that. Its so wrong on so many levels. It can be considered reckless endangerment and criminal negligence.


And yet I know a guy that recently bought an e-bike who seems like a nice, upstanding, law abiding citizen and one of the first things he did was mod his rig in a similar way. He told me it only took a few minutes.

This thread illustrates that this (and other mods) will be routinely done.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

uhoh7 said:


> Peartune for USA Yamaha Pedelec
> 
> Before I go any further, this may well void the warranty, and it may be possible to tell the device has been used even after it is removed by diagnostic. For a brand new bike I would ride it awhile to be sure everything is working fine before considering this mod. Not all of these devices work on USA pedelecs, so be careful which you choose, if you go this route.
> 
> ...


Saved for posterity.

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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Pinoy agree just didn't add the other levels of egregiousness.

Anybody got some extra humble pie sauce so I can choke down my words that individuals won't modify their new bikes? Only thing to mollify me is that Harry and JB had convinced me I was incorrect before this came along and proved it decisively.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

fos'l said:


> Pinoy agree just didn't add the other levels of egregiousness.
> 
> Anybody got some extra humble pie sauce so I can choke down my words that individuals won't modify their new bikes? Only thing to mollify me is that Harry and JB had convinced me I was incorrect before this came along and proved it decisively.


No worries Fos'l, I knew it was coming because it's a common topic on the other ebike forums for exactly the same reason uhoh7 did it in the first place. Some people grate their teeth over the 15.5 limit in Europe and the 20 mph one here, both on the road and trail. You go from feeling like superman to like you're dragging a chain as you hover at the limit.

The manufacturers know about it, as well as the dealers and there's been zero effort from the motor makers to combat it. From one of the threads:



> Hey Aleks,
> 
> visit:
> ChefvomRadweg, BOSCH Tuning vom Feinsten
> ...


https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ch-or-yamaha-drive-efficient-detectable.4534/

The only thing that would deter most people is if they got in an accident and were sued for having an illegal bike on the road, which in our country seems unlikely.

It obviously doesn't change your power levels or your speed on steep climbs or steep descents, but on the flat and rolling stuff in between, you can certainly carry a lot more speed. If your cut off is now 40mph, you can be on the gas any time you feel like it.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Harryman said:


> The only thing that would deter most people is if they got in an accident and were sued for having an illegal bike on the road.


What law am I breaking?

40 mph? You are high. Impossible on my bike. As I said 27 was as fast as I could go on the pavement. In Idaho 30 mph is the limit for Electric bicycles.

I see lots of condemnation and no reasons for it, sorry.

This is not Eurpoe, it's Idaho. You think 27 mph on a fire road is bad?

As I noted, if the NFS or BLM want to allow me on non-motorized trails in return for a 20mph or even 15 mph restriction, that's fine. But currently a two wheeled "motorized" vehicle is not required to have a speed limiter.

Some bike paths do have speed restrictions, but that's another matter: like a speed limit you follow them if under your 30mph max. Today I clocked road bikers at 24mph on a 15 mph bike path. 

My own take is just the opposite of that shown in the thread, the difference in use is so mild concerns about destriction for 250w is way overblown. A derestricted bike is not much different in use because the power is so low.

That opinion is based on actual riding, not hyperbolic speculation, and it's honest.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

uhoh7 said:


> What law am I breaking?
> 
> 40 mph? You are high. Impossible on my bike. As I said 27 was as fast as I could go on the pavement. In Idaho 30 mph is the limit for Electric bicycles.
> 
> ...


Since I don't know the Idaho regulations, I never claimed you were, nor do I care how fast you ride your bike on motorized. Or what you ride, I really don't. I do find it amusing and telling that majority of emtb proponents in these threads are riding a bike that is not Class 1 or pedelc legal.

I can easily hit 40 on my mtb on a fire road, I can't see why you can't either if you can be under power up until then. If your delimiter didn't trick your controller into believing you are going half the speed that you actually are, you bought the wrong one, since that's how they all work.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

That is good to know that there is a mod for the Yamaha motor, curious if it will work for Bosch.

The cut-off for the motor on my bike is 99 mph, and the hikers with dogs don't know and don't care, they are too busy thanking me for yielding as most jerkbag mt bikers force them off the trail.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Linktung said:


> That is good to know that there is a mod for the Yamaha motor, curious if it will work for Bosch.
> 
> The cut-off for the motor on my bike is 99 mph, and the hikers with dogs don't know and don't care, they are too busy thanking me for yielding as most jerkbag mt bikers force them off the trail.


I find the same thing 

These same guys make one for Bosch:
Peartune MSO Max Speed Off Bosch Active Performance Pedelec E Bike Tuning | eBay

They do respond to questions 



Harryman said:


> Since I don't know the Idaho regulations, I never claimed you were, nor do I care how fast you ride your bike on motorized. Or what you ride, I really don't. I do find it amusing and telling that majority of emtb proponents in these threads are riding a bike that is not Class 1 or pedelc legal.
> 
> I can easily hit 40 on my mtb on a fire road, I can't see why you can't either if you can be under power up until then. If your delimiter didn't trick your controller into believing you are going half the speed that you actually are, you bought the wrong one, since that's how they all work.


You can hit 40 on a flat fireroad on your mtb? Now that I know how fast various speeds are on a mtb frame, I know I have never gone 40 in any circumstance in 30 years of mtb riding. 30 is very fast and you have to have very high gears to go past that.

TY for the acknowledgment on legality.

Anyone else?

Am I breaking the law in some way here?

If not what is the reason for all these negative posts?

As I noted in the original post, I am happy to re-restrict if it allows access on non-motorized trails.  I'm not kidding.

Meanwhile I'll setup my bike as I choose and local laws dictate, thank you. 

I find it very interesting that in so many of these threads the anti-e crowd justifies the current NFS non-access by saying: "That's the law" It has a "motor" etc.

But here the law does not matter?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Wow, that was a quick loss of all (remaining) credibility.

-Walt


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> Wow, that was a quick loss of all (remaining) credibility.
> 
> -Walt


Said our moderator who does not like e-mtbs and frequently trolls those who do 

Why make a point when an insult is so easy, right?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm not the one who insisted e-bikes were ridden only by law-abiding, rule-following angels and that people who mod their rides are crazed outlaws who are too rare to worry about.

How long have you even had the bike? 2 weeks? For pete's sake. If anyone wanted to prove the "people are going to mod their bikes and break the rules" claim, you just did it.

-Walt


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

uhoh7 said:


> Said our moderator who does not like e-mtbs and frequently trolls those who do
> 
> Why make a point when an insult is so easy, right?


In the orwellian e-bike section the only people with a credible opinion about e-bikes are the ones who have never owned one. Try going on another section you have no interest in and post ad-naseum and see how long it takes you to get banned. Here in the E-bike section, it is the moderator who often goes off the deep end.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> I'm not the one who insisted e-bikes were ridden only by law-abiding, rule-following angels and that people who mod their rides are crazed outlaws who are too rare to worry about.
> 
> How long have you even had the bike? 2 weeks? For pete's sake. If anyone wanted to prove the "people are going to mod their bikes and break the rules" claim, you just did it.
> 
> -Walt


Thanks for the hostile inaccurate paraphrase. 

What rules am I breaking, please?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Hey, feel free to engage with my "how to we maintain the access and user experience we have now" question. In case anyone missed it, I'm totally ok with 250W/15mph limited e-bikes. I just don't see how that's going to happen without idiots ruining it for everyone (both e-bike and non) and this thread is pretty damning evidence that I'm right. 

-Walt


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Walt said:


> Hey, feel free to engage with my "how to we maintain the access and user experience we have now" question. In case anyone missed it, I'm totally ok with 250W/15mph limited e-bikes. I just don't see how that's going to happen without idiots ruining it for everyone (both e-bike and non) and this thread is pretty damning evidence that I'm right.
> 
> -Walt


I just hope they close trails in Idaho first.

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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> Hey, feel free to engage with my "how to we maintain the access and user experience we have now" question. In case anyone missed it, I'm totally ok with 250W/15mph limited e-bikes. I just don't see how that's going to happen without idiots ruining it for everyone (both e-bike and non) and this thread is pretty damning evidence that I'm right.
> 
> -Walt


BS. I have noted multiple times I will re-restrict to follow any new rules for non-motorised trails. There are no such rules here. I am restricted to motorized trails and local bike path laws. I have modified my bike to meet both.

Your hyperbole is backed up by what?

If i let my mtb run DH I'll soon be OOC, so we should bans mtbs also?


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Walt said:


> Hey, feel free to engage with my "how to we maintain the access and user experience we have now" question..
> 
> -Walt


Been addressed several times, first off get no-motor bikes to yield for hikers, secondly, e-bikes yield to everyone including downhill mt bikers. Continue banning Internal Combustion engines and the world will be a better place for you and for me and the entire human race.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Hey, if you want to ride moto trails, go nuts. I could care less. In fact, I heartily approve, and if I had moto trails around here I'd do the same, because going fast is awesome and more power is more fun.

But it's clear that 20mph wasn't enough for you. Kudos for not poaching anything you're not allowed to, but it's obviously super easy and super tempting to mod/upgrade/delimit e-bikes. Which means that there's not going to be an easy way to make sure they are limited correctly, which means it's just an enforcement nightmare, so they're just going to get banned from MUTs. 

It shocks me that manufacturers haven't addressed this already. If the bikes are going to stand any chance of getting access to MUTs, the builders are going to have to come up with a solution that totally eliminates the possibility of modifying them. 

-Walt


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> Hey, if you want to ride moto trails, go nuts. I could care less. In fact, I heartily approve, and if I had moto trails around here I'd do the same, because going fast is awesome and more power is more fun.
> 
> But it's clear that 20mph wasn't enough for you. Kudos for not poaching anything you're not allowed to, but it's obviously super easy and super tempting to mod/upgrade/delimit e-bikes. Which means that there's not going to be an easy way to make sure they are limited correctly, which means it's just an enforcement nightmare, so they're just going to get banned from MUTs.
> 
> ...


What now my behavior is OK?

Wow I though I was the worst thing to ever happen to e-mtbs, mtbs and law and order.

Your logic is so ridiculous and totally hypocritical. Applying the same standard to mtb regulation would have them banned from many many trails. How so?

Mtb behavior is regulated. But any rider has the choice to break those rules. In Walt's stalinist world, we should ban them all to be safe.

All this angst about E-mtbs is nice I guess because you don't have to think about the actual problem, which is the all to common rude riding 

Considering the rude posting here....maybe there's a link?


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## Winchested (Aug 28, 2015)

I hit a moron on an E bike with my truck and he wrecked the whole damn side of it. Was going the wrong way down a road and just happened to be in a blind spot. 

I think they should all be banned or insured like the motor vehicles they are. 

Where I live they aren't even legal to use on old train trails. 

Oh and most of them wear motor cycle helmets so if you're wearing a motor cycle helmet you must be on a motor cycle. 

I love biking but uninsured E bikes on roads are dangerous and I drove through a city everyday and know people on the fire dept and they hate the E bikes too because they deal with them daily.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Winchested said:


> I hit a moron on an E bike with my truck and he wrecked the whole damn side of it.


Yeah that could never have happened with a bicycle or pedestrian


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Winchested said:


> I hit a moron on an E bike with my truck and he wrecked the whole damn side of it. Was going the wrong way down a road and just happened to be in a blind spot.
> 
> I think they should all be banned or insured like the motor vehicles they are.
> 
> ...


LoL


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> I just hope they close trails in Idaho first.


Next time you go down hard, by yourself, in the middle of nowhere, and no one comes past, night is falling....I hope you just repeat to yourself: sure am glad e-mtbs can't use this trail 

I am the one with a SPOT, large first aid kit, and extra clothes. And I'd bet money I'm nicer to other users than you are. 

What's that noise in the brush?

I also have bear repellant


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

uhoh7 said:


> Next time you go down hard, by yourself, in the middle of nowhere, and no one comes past, night is falling....I hope you just repeat to yourself: sure am glad e-mtbs can't use this trail
> 
> I am the one with a SPOT, large first aid kit, and extra clothes. And I'd bet money I'm nicer to other users than you are.
> 
> ...


Well, luckily for me, I'm well trained and unless I'm paralyzed from the neck down, I'll make it out alive.

But, thanks for your concern.

I'm guessing my chances of being in an accident like that are significantly lower than if I were riding a 750w+ "bike", too.

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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I don't care what nice people do with high tech fast dangerous things. I bet everyone here is a nice guy/gal IRL. 

I *do* care about the 10% of the population that will do stupid crap with those things and ruin for everyone else. And giving those people faster crap to use on MUTs (or giving them stuff they can easily modify to go faster) is just a terrible idea.

I guess this is really the whole problem of government in a nutshell. If everyone was an angel, we wouldn't need rules. We could all ride anything we wanted anywhere we wanted and if it was making someone else unhappy we'd stop immediately. But life doesn't work that way, and you can't manage a trail system that way unless (like in rural ID) there's basically nobody out there. 

So e-bikes that act (ie don't go faster) and look like normal bikes are great. But if you can't figure out how to make sure they work that way EVEN FOR THE JERKS, then you might as well just ban them if you're a land manager. Human power only makes it much much harder to be a jerk and that's the only thing that keeps mountain bikes on the trails at all in many places. 

-Walt


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> Well, luckily for me, I'm well trained and unless I'm paralyzed from the neck down, I'll make it out alive.
> 
> But, thanks for your concern.
> 
> I'm guessing my chances of being in an accident like that are significantly lower than if I were riding a 750w+ "bike", too.


Overconfident too. 

You are making it out with a broken leg?

I hope you are never in that position, which could happen to anyone, and does in wild places across the country. Responsible e-mtb access will make mtb and hiking riding in the backcountry safer, not less safe.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> I don't care what nice people do with high tech fast dangerous things. I bet everyone here is a nice guy/gal IRL.
> 
> I *do* care about the 10% of the population that will do stupid crap with those things and ruin for everyone else.
> 
> -Walt


Funny many hikers and equestrians say EXACTLY the same thing about you and your user group (which includes me BTW, just got a new dropper for my Mojo SL) 

Putting yourself in others' shoes is tough for you?

Basically the rabid shoot from the hip ehate is giving the sierra club all sorts of justification for their intolerance so plagiarized in many vapid posts here: the only difference being the enemy


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

What is the easiest course of action for a Land Manager? Because you know the majority of time that's what they will do, take the easiest path. Hint, it isn't granting access.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> What is the easiest course of action for a Land Manager? Because you know the majority of time that's what they will do, take the easiest path. Hint, it isn't granting access.


Thanks for that newsflash, TT 

I don't think anyone of us ever thought of that.

That's what happened at first with mtbs, right?

And then they disappeared


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Not at all, I agree. Those hikers and equestrians are largely right - our technology does empower the 10% to act terribly. Mountain bikes are banned from many places because of jerks, and precariously allowed in others. Adding more power and speed would make that worse, so if you want e-bikes on those trails, you need to make sure the jerks can't be any faster/jerkier.

Glad to hear that we're in agreement. 

-Walt


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

uhoh7 said:


> Thanks for that newsflash, TT
> 
> I don't think anyone of us ever thought of that.
> 
> ...


E-bikes are going to be on the losing end of this one though. And your sanctimonious and cavalier attitude is contributing to the demise of any hopes of access. I said it before, you are a simple Troll. Post another pretty picture to deflect, redirect. Congratulations on your perceived success, or whatever you think it is.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

E-bikers have a long way to go if they are going to be on the level of dickishness of the average non-motorized-cyclist.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Linktung said:


> E-bikers have a long way to go if they are going to be on the level of dickishness of the average non-motorized-cyclist.


This thread directly contradicts your assertion.


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## sfgiantsfan (Dec 20, 2010)

Linktung said:


> E-bikers have a long way to go if they are going to be on the level of dickishness of the average non-motorized-cyclist.


You have surpassed anyone I have ever met on a trail


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

sfgiantsfan said:


> You have surpassed anyone I have ever met on a trail


Says the non-e-biker posting in the e-bike section....

The majority of jerks on the trail are racing against strava KOM's and e-bikes have the capability to destroy the legitimacy of Strava. Allowing e-bikes has the potential to lift up the manners of non-e-bikers by destroying concept of racing.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

tiretracks said:


> This thread directly contradicts your assertion.


You are poaching/trespassing in this thread/forum since you do not ride/own nor are you in the market for an e-bike.

Read post #28 and get to me.....


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Linktung said:


> Says the non-e-biker posting in the e-bike section....
> 
> The majority of jerks on the trail are racing against strava KOM's and e-bikes have the capability to destroy the legitimacy of Strava. Allowing e-bikes has the potential to lift up the manners of non-e-bikers by destroying concept of racing.


Do you read what you write before you post it?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Linktung said:


> The majority of jerks on the trail are racing against strava KOM's and e-bikes have the capability to destroy the legitimacy of Strava. Allowing e-bikes has the potential to lift up the manners of non-e-bikers by destroying concept of racing.


So, electric bikes will improve trail etiquette by making every rider as fast as the few KOM chasing maniacs there are now? Interesting.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

uhoh7 said:


> What law am I breaking?
> 
> 40 mph? You are high. Impossible on my bike. As I said 27 was as fast as I could go on the pavement. In Idaho 30 mph is the limit for Electric bicycles.


You broke the rules of responsible and SAFE trail riding!

Every TRUE trail rider here knows that WHERE WE RIDE, there are other folks that uses the same trails to enjoy their time there as well. I take my kids hiking because they enjoy being on the trails too.

The last thing we need is some knucklehead with a HACKED Ebike with a steep head angle and plus sized tires to boot!

We all know the grip that plus tires gives us. But it also comes with a bad tendency to "autopilot" when you go fast on them.

Gravity, LACK of skill, the wrong bike geo, fat tires and the speed limiter completely disabled is a recipe for disaster!

If crash into a hiker or equestrian, Criminal Negligence and Reckless Endangerment are the charges that will be filed against you! Plus the rest of us will have our trail access in jeopardy!

Do us all a favor, stop posting reviews that NONE of us are interested in reading. If you do, think LONG AND HARD (consider the repercussions of what you write) before you submit it!


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

PinoyMTBer said:


> You broke the rules of responsible and SAFE trail riding!
> 
> Every TRUE trail rider here knows that WHERE WE RIDE, there are other folks that uses the same trails to enjoy their time there as well. I take my kids hiking because they enjoy being on the trails too.
> 
> ...


Hysteria from all sides 

I have broken no rules about about safe riding, and as my review points out, the modification has no effect on trail riding at all, as I or 90% of riders use them. 90% of riders would and could not get up to 20 mph on a flat or slightly inclined ST, and if they did somehow, they would slow down cause it's scary.

Yes there are a few strong and aggressive riders who could get up over 20 mph on a e-mtb and manage to scare people. How do you think these people ride a MTB? 
The threat is identical. How many watts does gravity have and what is the speed limiter on it?

But I guess you did not read my report, or you just think I'm lying.

All these fears you express, what about motorcycles, which are fully legal on the trails I'm riding? Shall we ban them further?

What I read here it's lots of strong emotion and little experience with the topic.

Once again I state: I will put my 20mph limit back in a flash if it allows me on non-motorized trails. Since it does not, and there is no law at all in Idaho which asks a 20mph restriction, I have installed a switch to remove the restriction, WHICH IS NOT REQUIRED HERE, when I press a button.

I am hurting no one and breaking no law, and I suggest your shock and dismay is displaced, with respect. 

Otherwise you should make a campaign to put mechanical speed restrictions on all of our vehicles, bikes, e-bikes, motorcycles, cars and trucks.

What your car can go 90moh?? Are you INSANE?? You threaten all of our driving by having a car that can go 90!!!! I don't care if you never take it over 62mph. You sir are a THREAT to society 

It's pretty remarkable the unique moral standards applied to 1/4 HP e-mtbs because they are so dangerous compared to......what?

Guns, Bacteria, Cars, Motorcycles, angry equestrians and rampaging DH mtb riders?

But if somebody lets me on the non-motorized, even though it makes no difference at all in my riding, I engage my speed control if that's the deal. No problem 

Until that happens I will setup my bike as I choose and local law allows, OK?


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Uhoh, 

I don't want to make anyone my enemy. But the moment you installed that "hack" you became one!

Stay on your MOTORIZED trails in Idaho, since you TOOK AWAY the only safety feature of your bike that make it feel like you're still riding a bicycle.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Uhoh,
> 
> I don't want to make anyone my enemy. But the moment you installed that "hack" you became one!
> 
> Stay on your MOTORIZED trails in Idaho, since you TOOK AWAY the only safety feature of your bike that make it feel like you're still riding a bicycle.


So you are saying if it turn my restriction back on it's OK to ride on the non-motorized trails, as far as you are concerned?

I HAVE been riding on motorized trails from the start as we have many many (which are mostly used by mtb riders)

You would rather have me out on my 50 hp noisy moto than my e-mtb which could theoretically exceed 20 mph while pedaling?

I report honestly from the real world as it exists here in Idaho. Please don't place me in your fantasy nightmare of un-restricted e-mtb thuggery. 


Big Smoky by unoh7, on Flickr

The only effective safety feature on any bike, with or without a motor, is a responsible rider. 

Brakes are good too


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

uhoh7 said:


> So you are saying if it turn my restriction back on it's OK to ride on the non-motorized trails, as far as you are concerned?


You've lost all of your credibility from all of us here. Do you think any of us will believe you if you said you removed the hack?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Man, you even lost the other e-bike folks. Nice work.

The point here is that you immediately hacked the bike to go faster, and then you *posted a review* of said hack online ON A MOUNTAIN BIKE FORUM. 

I believe you when you say you won't ride anywhere illegal. Many others don't share your compunctions and will figure that this is a great way to get a moto experience on mountain bike trails. Everyone can easily share info on these (inexpensive) hacks, which means even lazy people can manage it with minimal effort.

If I were an offroad e-bike manufacturer I would probably think about recalling bikes to install some sort of anti-tampering software at this point, but that's just me. In the long term this is going to be a disaster for them.

-Walt


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

I think the ebike community here is what's lost all credibility. 

They'll be limited to xyz watts on trails.

They'll be limited to xy MPH. 

Modify their bike? Remove the speed restriction? No one is going to do that.

Humans show time and time again that given any family of devices or contraptions, some percentage of us will want the biggest, fastest, shiniest one and will do whatever to get it whether legal or illegal or conditionally legal.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

As I have mentioned in the Motorized Bike Access Thread and the Angry Single Speed thread, people WILL modify their bikes and that is what is going to impact pedal MTB Access in the end.

Perhaps the OP is a responsible trail user and only uses his boosted abilities on Fireroads. Does that mean every other person who purchases and Modifies a Electric Motorized Bike is going to do the same?

Not even close.

Just look at any industry of motorized vehicles, electric, Gas or Diesel. There is a HUUUUGE market for aftermarket products to make your motorized vehicle go faster, some legal, some not legal (CA has major restrictions on how cars can be modified). 

Now look at all the videos on youtube of people street racing, stunting and doing other dangerous things with their modified Vehicles.

What on earth makes anyone from the e-bike camp think this sort of thing will not carry over into this new sport?


What about the Street Version of e-bikes, if someone puts on one of these kits and starts going 40-50mph on city streets should they still be classified as a bike? No license plate needed, no registration, no license or helmet?

This is a bigger issue than just trail access. Modification of these devices NEEDS to put them in a new category, they cannot continue to be called Bicycles or to be treated as such.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

PinoyMTBer said:


> You've lost all of your credibility from all of us here. Do you think any of us will believe you if you said you removed the hack?


Glad you can speak for everyone. 

So, I should just shut up about how I mod my bike for local conditions and laws?

Then you would believe all I say?


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> Many others don't share your compunctions and will figure that this is a great way to get a moto experience on mountain bike trails.


Another symptom of no experience with e-mtbs is confusing them with motos, which is impossible when actually riding one.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> Perhaps the OP is a responsible trail user and only uses his boosted abilities on Fireroads. Does that mean every other person who purchases and Modifies a Electric Motorized Bike is going to do the same?
> 
> Not even close.


Yup, EXACTLY why mtbs should be banned from all MUTs, according to plenty of hikers and horseback riders.

Mtbs can go very fast DH and on the flats scaring other users, SO THEY WILL!!!

Nice to take page out their book and use it against the terrible e-bogeyman


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Actually, I got a ride on a Turbo Levo just the other day (only on pavement, nowhere legal to ride here). I would be able to freaking BLAST up climbs on that thing, or at least I could on pavement - no problem hitting the limiter on even fairly steep (6%) stuff if I tried hard. 

Mod that thing, and I'd say I could compete with a moto on a lot of trails as long as it was reasonably twisty and narrow. Wide open fire road, forget it, of course. 

Point being, it's way way faster, or at least it would be for me. 

-Walt


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> Yup, EXACTLY why mtbs should be banned from all MUTs, according to plenty of hikers and horseback riders.
> 
> Mtbs can go very fast DH and on the flats scaring other users, SO THEY WILL!!!
> 
> Nice to take page out their book and use it against the terrible e-bogeyman


Except for the fact that groups like IMBA and others have worked very hard to get and keep access, I have yet to hear of any E-Bike group showing up at a land access meeting. Get back to us when you have done that as a group.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes, mountain bikes often go too fast on downhills (and sometimes on the flat). They lose access to trails for just that reason in many places, and justifiably so.

Adding power to the bike will *expand* the places where "too fast" is possible (I can go 20mph up many climbs with even just a 250W assist), and people will, naturally, go too fast. Which I think we can all agree is bad.

-Walt


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> Actually, I got a ride on a Turbo Levo just the other day (only on pavement, nowhere legal to ride here). I would be able to freaking BLAST up climbs on that thing, or at least I could on pavement - no problem hitting the limiter on even fairly steep (6%) stuff if I tried hard.
> 
> Mod that thing, and I'd say I could compete with a moto on a lot of trails as long as it was reasonably twisty and narrow. Wide open fire road, forget it, of course.
> 
> Point being, it's way way faster, or at least it would be for me.


OMG progress 
Now you rode one on pavement and you REALLY know all about them LOL

"mod it and I will keep up with motos"

You are so high. 

Do you realize the "mod" does not increase power? Do you understand that at 21mph 1/4 hp is very faint compared to how it feels at 5mph?

Of course you don't, because you don't bother to do any serious research, like experimentation.

Look, I have had mtb riders stay with me DH when riding normally on my moto. A few, at considerable risk to themselves, since they had no protection and a very rickety platform.

And that proves?

Nothing.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> Except for the fact that groups like IMBA and others have worked very hard to get and keep access, I have yet to hear of any E-Bike group showing up at a land access meeting. Get back to us when you have done that as a group.


So you give up on that last tack, I guess and now you have a new one. Let's not base access rights on impact, but on what "group" you belong to.

The gang model. Nice


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> Do you realize the "mod" does not increase power? Do you understand that at 21mph 1/4 hp is very faint compared to how it feels at 5mph?


http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/foes-mutz-meets-lefty-plus-14-000ws-power-1018865.html


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Klurejr said:


> http://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/foes-mutz-meets-lefty-plus-14-000ws-power-1018865.html


I guess staying on plot is tough for you. He is talking about a turbo levo, and so am I


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> So you give up on that last tack, I guess and now you have a new one. Let's not base access rights on impact, but on what "group" you belong to.
> 
> The gang model. Nice


If all access was based on Impact then horses and Hikers would be behind MTB's, it has been proven that two tires is less impact than two feet.

It has been a hard fought road for the MTB Community, maybe not where you live, but certainly in many many area's. Adding a motor to the bike automatically puts it into a new group. We are not trying ot gang up on anyone, we just want to see some actual suggestions and work from this new user group to help them establish how to have access, because if they don't step up the chances of hurting real MTB access is very high.

Do you understand how that works?

Where do you live by the way? I live in San Diego County, go check out the SoCal section and you will see just what a horrible time the MTB Community has had with trying to just keep existing trails.

I would hate to see some lazy land manager or City Council blanket ban all bikes on trails because a small handful of users modified their e_Bikes to 10k watts and started tearing up trails or speeding, or whatever.

Look at what some MTB riders have done to our access because of needing to be KOM on Strava:
http://www.tetongravity.com/story/g...untain-bikers-get-banned-from-california-park

This IS happening, Motorized Bikes is not going to make things Easier for trail access.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

uhoh7 said:


> I guess staying on plot is tough for you. He is talking about a turbo levo, and so am I


Actually, this thread is all about an Upgrade Kit that modifies a bike. In fact I think you started the thread.....


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I actually raced an enduro on a mountain bike once, on a pretty twisty/singletrack course (the Cloudcroft race, if you're familiar with it). On all the flat/DH singletrack I was able to keep up just fine with A riders.

But this isn't a who is fast pissing contest. There's no question the extra power makes everyone faster. That's the whole point. If you limit at 15 you probably don't hurt much. If you limit at 20, you're going to create lots of new conflict zones where there aren't any now.

-Walt


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

uhoh7 said:


> OMG progress
> Now you rode one on pavement and you REALLY know all about them LOL
> 
> "mod it and I will keep up with motos"
> ...


This is a great example of what you don't understand. You are asking users to accept you into their arms without hesitation but expecting that acceptance to come with no opinion unless you are an e-bike rider. This is a pretty ludicrous requirement. Either you ask to be accepted as is, without the requirement that you "shall not pass judgement on this thing unless you have done it", or you ask to be accepted based on your stance and the evidence posited in support of your stance.

E-bike proponents have posited the following conflicting statements as evidence:
1. E-bikes don't make you any faster however they have also posited that it will end strava because everyone will be able to KOM a section, among other go faster examples.
2. Modding e-bikes isn't something everyone will do and it won't happen and it can't happen to Class 1 bikes, etc but see this thread for the opposite theory.
3. E-bikes belong because they are like bikes but you don't know anything about e-bikes unless you have ridden an e-bike because they are not like bikes.

It makes it hard to take anything anyone says about e-bikes seriously, and consequently the most vocal e-bike proponents on here are also the least credible but they have also been publicly laying out all the arguments that one could use in denying them access to trails or to bikes in general.


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

So we want ebikers to have access to all trails and the first thing we do is mod our bike to break the rules. That should really help our cause.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rockcrusher said:


> 3. E-bikes belong because they are like bikes but you don't know anything about e-bikes unless you have ridden an e-bike because they are not like bikes.


:lol:


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

rockcrusher said:


> E-bike proponents have posited the following conflicting statements as evidence:
> 1. E-bikes don't make you any faster however they have also posited that it will end strava because everyone will be able to KOM a section, among other go faster examples.
> 2. Modding e-bikes isn't something everyone will do and it won't happen and it can't happen to Class 1 bikes, etc but see this thread for the opposite theory.
> 3. E-bikes belong because they are like bikes but you don't know anything about e-bikes unless you have ridden an e-bike because they are not like bikes.


Another contradiction that I'm struggling with here is the disabled argument.

I'm all for special accommodation for the disabled, but I constantly hear the ebike argument that "they aren't that different from normal bikes / don't help that much", and "you still have to do significant pedaling", yet someone who is disabled can use one to do 20 mi and several thousand feet.

I'm seriously not trying to troll any disabled person here - I just don't get how you can physically pedal a pedal-assist bike on what 97% of the general population would consider the biggest bike ride of their life, and claim that that's necessary accommodation and ebikes should have access to all regular MTB trails to allow you to do this.

Am I disabled because I cannot go as far and as fast as a cat 1 racer? Who makes that determination and where do we draw the line, to prevent trails from being inundated by e-bikes at great peril? Does any doctor's judgment count as proof? Because, as we have seen, there are plenty of people gaming the DP placard system (1 in 8 Californians has one) and there is a growing issue with service animal fraud as well (everyone wants Spot to eat in the restaurant with them).


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Procter, I know that is directed to me. We've had our exchanges before, and I dont wanna bring it out again. Its simply too disturbing how your mind works. Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that! By the way, the reason why I can do the distance and elevation that I can do. Is because thats the same distances and elevation I was riding before my unfortunate accident. Now my bike has a MOTOR to help me climb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Ok. First, apologize for my joke before. Too much Howard Stern for me I guess (its a recurring joke there), no one else saw the humor. If you accept my apology I'm ready to have a rational conversation on this if you are. If you're not, that's fine too.

Several here and throughout the forum have made that argument, I think its a legitimate line of debate.

Special accommodation is important for society, I am all for paved trails in national parks and I'm fine with forcing businesses to build ramps and such, as long as reasonable timeline is given for new requirements. But these accommodations are not intended to _completely equalize the experience_. Doing so would require paving the rest of Yosemite, for example.

Applying this line of logic to e-bikes, it feels like, if you can pedal, you can pedal. Someone with a disability might not be able to pedal as far or as fast as others, but that applies to everyone here except the Peter Sagan's and Chris Froome's among us. Allowing some government/physician/bureaucratic process to differentiate between different _degrees_ of ability to pedal, doesn't seem like it will work. If there was way to provide this accomodation without threatening access, I'd be fine with that too, but I don't think it will go that way.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I think it's fine to allow anyone who wants to claim a disability to use an e-bike. I don't want to be in the position of judging someone's subjective pain or ability.

But that also means I want strict limits on power/speed. If you really can only access mountain bike trails by using a motor, then by all means use one. At 10-15mph maximum, so that you're not going any faster than any other bicyclists and not threatening bicycle access.

If you just want to go faster/further than you can as a normal human, that's a different thing. Go ride moto trails as fast as you want.

-Walt


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

I'd be fine with that too, but as we see here with this thread, that's not enforceable/policeable/achievable.


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Proctor, 

Apology accepted. Thats the problem with the internet, sometimes what we consider funny can be translated as an attack or insult or something else.

Back to your topic, I could hike, bike and do most of the things I used to do, except running. But now I have a limitation that once Ive reach it, pain starts to take over. Im sure you've broken bones before. That sharp burning sensation that comes in waves. 

Thats the pain I experience consistently after 30-40 minutes of sustained climbing. It only happens on the climbs. Maybe one of the pins inside my foot is misplaced triggering a nerve or something. 

There is an ebike group that I found early this year, so what do i got to lose I'll try one of them cheater bikes! Low and behold! I don't experience the pain anymore! I could finally ride and enjoy the ride without pain. To me thats the most important benefit I get out of riding my ebike. If you dont like it, so be it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

I am ALL IN with the EU speced emtb, my bike is one of them. I also have no intentions of modding this rig.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

I'm sorry for your injury, and I have broken a major bone before and it was by far the most painful thing I've ever experienced. And, I was lucky that clavicles and AC's heal near 100%. I can't imagine what I'd do if I couldn't ride any more. 

If there was a way to allow you to continue to share the MTB experience without others endangering it for all of us, I'd be all for it. I don't think we've found that solution yet. Its a very difficult problem to solve.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Thats the pain I experience consistently after 30-40 minutes of sustained climbing. It only happens on the climbs.


You _could_ avoid those types of rides. I avoid long sustained climbs whenever possible and have no disabilities, well no "official" ones anyway.

Just saying....


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Procter said:


> I'm sorry for your injury, and I have broken a major bone before and it was by far the most painful thing I've ever experienced. And, I was lucky that clavicles and AC's heal near 100%. I can't imagine what I'd do if I couldn't ride any more.
> 
> If there was a way to allow you to continue to share the MTB experience without others endangering it for all of us, I'd be all for it. I don't think we've found that solution yet. Its a very difficult problem to solve.


Thanks for your understanding man. I've been riding since I was a little kid. Its like breathing to me, I simply have to do it! Now Ive also passed the passion to both of my little ones. They are starting to trail ride as well.

Thats why I got so upset when this "mod review" thread was posted. What if I was riding with my kids approaching a blind curve on a fire road, and here comes an idiot with a modded Ebike going @ 45 mph! What would that impact do to my child?

This Ebike trend is new to all of us. The industry, advocacy groups, and all of us riders from both sides need to be involved. Its the only way to properly regulate it. The ebike manufacturers also needs to secure their machines to be held liable for their products when it gets hacked. Or they lose their ability to sell here in the US!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

J.B. Weld said:


> You _could_ avoid those types of rides. I avoid long sustained climbs whenever possible and have no disabilities, well no "official" ones anyway.
> 
> Just saying....


I do those rides too, mostly when I'm teaching my kids how to trail ride. This my rig for those! Ain't she pretty? and compared to my "other" bike. She is so light!


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Nice ride, and great civil tone in the last series of posts


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## jottoh12 (May 22, 2018)

These gadgets/mods should be illegal and banned! 

GOOD GRIEF!

Speeding on your motorcycle is illegal and ALL motorcycles should have a speed limiter. Or the darn thing banned!


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## natrat (Mar 20, 2008)

jottoh12 said:


> These gadgets/mods should be illegal and banned!
> 
> GOOD GRIEF!
> 
> Speeding on your motorcycle is illegal and ALL motorcycles should have a speed limiter. Or the darn thing banned!


i just installed all kinds of electro trickery on my ktm - it goes really fast and i'm sure it annoys all the old ladies like you


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