# Chris King Internally Geared Hub?



## Rhinofly (Aug 30, 2010)

Anyone know if CK has considered doing their own take on this? If they made one just for mountain bikes, I know I sure would want one. An internally geared version of the King rear hub....drool.


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## Blaster1200 (Feb 20, 2004)

I seriously doubt they have the engineering resources to design such a hub. Not to mention that I don't think they have the manufacturing capability, either. 
Remember how many months it took them to develop a 15 mm axle for their existing hubs?


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## Hardtails Are Better (May 4, 2005)

Not to mention that they've traditionally been very slow to keep up with the times as far as new standards and whatnot. It took them forever to come out with a 1.5 headset, the InSet, a 150mm DH hub, etc.


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## rom1red (Jan 30, 2005)

And you forgot Cielo ...

http://cielo.chrisking.com/


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## HungarianBarbarian (Jul 24, 2008)

They waited for the patent to run out before making a modern aheadset. I wouldn't hold my breath for this one.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

I expect most design features are tied up by patents, if a person wants to get into the IGH biz they will need to design around lots of Shimano/SRAM/Sturmey/Rolhoff patents. Even if CK had the resources (which they don't) it's still very difficult to get around all the patents.


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## satanas (Feb 12, 2005)

How much would you be prepared to pay for a CK IGH? $5-10K? More??? The potential market would be extremely small.


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## Rhinofly (Aug 30, 2010)

Personally I would pay about $1K-$1.2k for an internally geared CK hub ... maybe a bit more. I never considered the patent issues. But consider what the current choices are...Alfine and Rohloff. Rohloff is quite expensive and does not index shift, Alfine is really not a mountain bike dedicated hub. If CK could produce an index shifting hub designed for the MB market, and do it with their usual quality and style, and do it for around $1k, they could change the market. If it really worked well, I think they would sell a ton of them.

Besides, the competition could help drive inovation from all the participating manufacturers. Rohloff needs a kick in the butt in this regard, imho.


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## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Hard to justify any internal geared at this time,derailleurs just plain work,simple,light,easy to set up and completely reliable,ride and forget when properly set up.


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

HungarianBarbarian said:


> They waited for the patent to run out before making a modern aheadset. I wouldn't hold my breath for this one.


Have you seen a CK using a compression ring? I haven't and they don't show it on their website


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## doco (Aug 31, 2008)

mtnbiker72 said:


> Have you seen a CK using a compression ring? I haven't and they don't show it on their website


is this it??

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=39218
Universal Cycles -- Chris King Griplock No Threadset - 2011


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

Agree that a small co. like CK will not be able to compete in the IGH arena. Given that, and having met a few riders using the Alfine 8-spd IGH on MTB's with success, I'm intrigued. After meeting another Clyde that ran one w/o issues during last seasons race circut, I'm willing to experiment. From what I get, the total weight difference from 
1x9--> IGH appears to be about 700g, so not a cinder block - maybe a brick. 

So far, it appears that road salt is a far worse enemy than mud/grit. Have grown tired of mangling derailler's on sticks/limbs/rocks, and am now really enjoy the worry-free riding of a rigid SS. Thinking that an IGH will make it more versatile while remaining bombproof..
Will post my results on the IGH forum..


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

Rhinofly said:


> Personally I would pay about $1K-$1.2k for an internally geared CK hub ... maybe a bit more. I never considered the patent issues. But consider what the current choices are...Alfine and Rohloff. Rohloff is quite expensive and does not index shift, Alfine is really not a mountain bike dedicated hub. If CK could produce an index shifting hub designed for the MB market, and do it with their usual quality and style, and do it for around $1k, they could change the market. If it really worked well, I think they would sell a ton of them.
> 
> Besides, the competition could help drive inovation from all the participating manufacturers. Rohloff needs a kick in the butt in this regard, imho.


what do you mean by doesn't index shift?


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

doco said:


> is this it??
> 
> http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=39218
> Universal Cycles -- Chris King Griplock No Threadset - 2011


Well there you go then, my bad


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

techfersure said:


> Hard to justify any internal geared at this time,derailleurs just plain work,simple,light,easy to set up and completely reliable,ride and forget when properly set up.


Yeah, on a roadbike.

...On a mt bike that actually gets ridden hard in the mtns, they friggin' suck!


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

swift said:


> Yeah, on a roadbike.
> 
> ...On a mt bike that actually gets ridden hard in the mtns, they friggin' suck!


mine doesn't..love it in the mountains.


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

Well, to each their own.

Where are you located?

Come ride with me. I'm in the perpetually wet, wooded, basalt covered NorthWest. I'll wait up for you once in a while while you tweak your derailer's limits and remount your dropped chain. ...If you're lucky, I'll get a flat tire and you can return the favor.


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## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Hey,I'm open to internal gearing,but price,weight and definitely more complicated in my opinion.I live in the east cost Pa,rocky,rooty,muddy,dead falls,ride a minimum of four days a week,AM,FR,DH last derailleur broken 08,cables replaced once a season needed or not cheap in minutes.a rohloff cost how much!! "remember the industries attempt at geared hubs some years ago... poof gone!"eight years of DH couple of broken hangers,expert,open and some pro,national circuit and regional 25 races a season not including numerous shuttles,runs at resorts very technical trail riding,do the math,cost effective and simple.what is available is tad boutique and completely impractical for aggressive extreme woods riding.as far as I know for commuters and light CC internal geared works fine and makes sense.

Would like to see a practical usable light reasonably priced geared hub,but would not hold my breath,until then derailleurs just plain work!


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

I have friends that ride derailers. I have them on all my roadbikes. Yeah, they work. Yeah, they're cheap. Yeah, they're light. 

Problem for me: they're fragile and a PITA to maintain when subjected to the abuses of mt. biking. My buddies and I are very aggressive on the trail and it's not uncommon for one of them to break/bend a hanger, or the derailer, itself. How many derailers should be replaced before one considers the buy-in, one-time cost of IGH? 

I've been on IGH for almost 4yrs. I keep up with everyone on the climb (and often lead, depending on who I'm riding with that day) and I can bomb the descent without dropping a chain. IMO, the weight difference is a non-issue for anyone who rides regularly. 

When I get home, I wipe the chain and put it away. Every 5 or 6 rides, I remove the chain and drop it in some mineral spirits and once a year, I change the oil in the hub...Maintenance just doesn't get much easier, which is huge because when it comes to mt. biking, I want to ride and not be forced to fiddle with widgets.

YMMV


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## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

swift,I can be won over,how durable is the hub for drops,high speed doubles and rock gardens,hucks,etc.most of my average daily rides incorporates this terrain,what hub are you using.


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## bikeisbetter (Aug 15, 2009)

Flyin'W said:


> Agree that a small co. like CK will not be able to compete in the IGH arena.











or the link: Rohloff place of birth

This is the barn where Rohloff was born. Doesn't look like belonging to a multinational corporation.

It is the combination of knowledge, ingenuity, diligence and relentlessness which builds great innovative products, not necessarily vast research and development budgets.

The other reason (besides lack of competence) why Chris King has not developed a good IGH is that they are likely happy with current business model. They take ordinary hubs and headsets, garnish them with fancy fit and finish and charge customers 6x what these components are worth. As long as there are buyers, no pursuit of innovation or competitiveness is necessary.



Rhinofly said:


> Besides, the competition could help drive inovation from all the participating manufacturers. Rohloff needs a kick in the butt in this regard, imho.


Why? They are probably the only company that makes components designed to last. Most of the cheap crap available these days has a built-in disintegration period to put you back in the market soon. Not the Rohloff, though. And since no one has managed to beat them so far, why should they changed something that has proven itself more than enough?



techfersure said:


> swift,I can be won over,how durable is the hub for drops,high speed doubles and rock gardens,hucks,etc.most of my average daily rides incorporates this terrain,what hub are you using.


Rohloff works when used for downhill just as well.


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## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

They have never been embraced by the DH crowed,I had seen a few mostly on the Nicolai's,my understanding is that there was reliability issues under very extreme conditions and weight and cost being the biggest complaint.this of course was at pro level,but what equipment the pro's use will influence and dictate what the industry will in the end put out for the mass consumer.

I can see a durable cost effective lighter hub being embraced by the AM and FR riders which is my primary type of riding,but will the industry try again is anyone's guess.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Rolhoff is perfect example if what happens when a small company goes over it's head. The quality control on Rolhoff sucks, as documented on this sub-forum several times. 10% out-of-box defect rate is an ISO9000/1 disaster...$1700 for the product is stupid expensive for that quality level. Alfine 8 doesn't have the features but it's a much better product quality wise and 1/6 the price.


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## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

My buddy had owned a Nicolai,after shipping back the frame several times because of Rolhoff issues,would lock up and or shifting issues after drops or high speed rock gardens.I actually saw blown up at a National in Idaho.he finally gave up on it and sold it.

I'm sure it's perfectly suitable for casual trail riding or commuting,but for FR and DH just not reliable.

Really a properly adjusted derailleur,chain length and alignment works mint,and as far as dropped chains very rare with proper set up.I have an LT2 and El Guapo,no chain guide,drops,doubles,rock gardens,have yet to drop a chain.for those who don't maintain there own bikes a internal might be the best way to go,still don't trust reliability though.


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## fokof (Apr 24, 2006)

pursuiter said:


> Rolhoff is perfect example if what happens when a small company goes over it's head. The quality control on Rolhoff sucks, as documented on this sub-forum several times. 10% out-of-box defect rate is an ISO9000/1 disaster...$1700 for the product is stupid expensive for that quality level. Alfine 8 doesn't have the features but it's a much better product quality wise and 1/6 the price.


What happened to your Rohloff ?
It was defective when you bought it ?
It wasn't warrantied ?

Really happy for you that you have such a good experience with your Alfine , but that is not my experience. See you in 2 years. ( that is if you use it seriously)

I have both Shimano and Rohloff IGH , the Speedhub have been trouble free for 6 years now , and I only had trouble with the Shimano ...

IMHO , IME , YMMV , yada yada yada .....


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

fokof said:


> ...See you in 2 years. ( that is if you use it seriously)...


Three seasons, 32x23, no issues. Only paid $220 for it (501) back then....


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

pursuiter said:


> Rolhoff is perfect example if what happens when a small company goes over it's head. The quality control on Rolhoff sucks, as documented on this sub-forum several times. 10% out-of-box defect rate is an ISO9000/1 disaster...$1700 for the product is stupid expensive for that quality level. Alfine 8 doesn't have the features but it's a much better product quality wise and 1/6 the price.


Can you back up your claim ? Where's the proof Rohloff has a 10% defect rate. I must have missed those threads. The most I've heard complain are a vocal few who it seems bought their Rohloff second hand. Mine's been flawless


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

It's in one of the many "I hate my Rolhoff" threads in this sub-forum. The US service guy fess'ed up. Luckly most folks just wax their bikes or it would be a bigger issue.


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## fokof (Apr 24, 2006)

You didn't answer my question:

Was your Rohloff defective when you received it ?


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

I don't own a Rolhoff, never have. I was planning on getting one, once I started reading up on them, I thought better of it. For $1700 it needs to be much better quality. The Rolhoff is a product that isn't ready for production, the 10% out-of-box failure rate is proof. The ugly shifter with two looped cables/tailhook isn't really optimal for MTB'ing either.

I travel with my MTB on my vacations, any failure would ruin my vacation. Alfine 8 is the best solution on the market for me. Alfine 8's quality and ruggedness has been documented in many threads on this sub-forum, if you want to debate it, pick one of those threads and bump it.


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## estutjaweh (Jan 3, 2008)

The quality control of Rohloff sucks??? really? ??!!??

I am aware that every other bicycle transmission regardless of type must be set up and adjusted regularly by the mechanic or owner - the quality control can be as low as it wants because the manufacturer can never be held responsible. It is always a third party who is responsible for making sure things work and so I really do think that it is a little unfair to compare the quality control of two very different systems. I could just as easily say "my derailleur doesnt work straight out of the box".

You state that the Alfine is best for you. That you find aspects ugly and not suitable for your style of riding. This is fine and a fair personal assessment to which I nor anyone else can comment, but why is it then necessary to knock a product based on a few repeated circumstances in a forum?

10% of 140,000 units is not excusable. This sort of figure however (if this really was a fair cross-section of Rohloffs produced gear-units) would have been documented a little more than just in a forum. Were this correct, then the numbers of speedhub using manufacturers would have dropped rather than increased and any company (good or bad) offering the level of free service over all products regardless of age would have gone bust years ago.

No product is perfect - f**k, I dont want a product to last forever. I'd get bored and replace it anyway after a couple of years but thats not the point. The speedhub is worth exactly what people are willing to pay just like every product this is a matter of taste and personal preference (most people wouldn't pay out 3k$ for a guitar - I did). The hub obviously isn't for you. Okay. But please refrain from using outrageous and unsupported quotes on reliability. If the hub were a person the'd sue for slander and defamation of character.


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## estutjaweh (Jan 3, 2008)

Woops, how silly of me. I completely forgot this was a thread about Chris king hubs!! Duh.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

It's related; if Chris King tried to make an IGH, he'd have lots of patent issues to design around and still have little chance of having a quality product due to resource issues (as proven by the pathetic Rolhoff results). Instead of suing, I'd hope Rolhoff would clean up their product while they still have OEM sales.


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## suba (Jun 25, 2009)

pursuiter said:


> I don't own a Rolhoff, never have. I was planning on getting one, once I started reading up on them, I thought better of it. For $1700 it needs to be much better quality. The Rolhoff is a product that isn't ready for production, the 10% out-of-box failure rate is proof. The ugly shifter with two looped cables/tailhook isn't really optimal for MTB'ing either.
> 
> I travel with my MTB on my vacations, any failure would ruin my vacation. Alfine 8 is the best solution on the market for me. Alfine 8's quality and ruggedness has been documented in many threads on this sub-forum, if you want to debate it, pick one of those threads and bump it.


I think anyone can see you have no credibility. End of story.


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## fokof (Apr 24, 2006)

pursuiter said:


> I don't own a Rolhoff, never have.


OK , no experiences what so ever with a rohloff ; check



pursuiter said:


> I was planning on getting one, once I started reading up on them, I thought better of it.


OK , takes his opinions on negative threads on the interwebs: check

And I remember you saying that the Alfine is lighter than the Speedhub , right ?
Oh yeah , you got that on the interwebs .......



pursuiter said:


> For $1700 it needs to be much better quality. The Rolhoff is a product that isn't ready for production, the 10% out-of-box failure rate is proof.


I'm still waiting to see where this "great" info comes from



pursuiter said:


> The ugly shifter with two looped cables/tailhook isn't really optimal for MTB'ing either.


And a return spring that gets clug up in mud and ice , and have the same dis-advantages as a classic derailleur is OK ?



pursuiter said:


> I travel with my MTB on my vacations, any failure would ruin my vacation. Alfine 8 is the best solution on the market for me. Alfine 8's quality and ruggedness has been documented in many threads on this sub-forum, if you want to debate it, pick one of those threads and bump it.


That really cool for you.
It's either that you are lucky or that you don't ride much......


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Oh, boy, the Rolhoff fan boys really are sensitive. Perhaps they should fix that guy's slipping Rolhoff instead of defending the un-defendable. Over 40 posts and the damn thing still sucks.


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## fokof (Apr 24, 2006)

pursuiter said:


> Oh, boy, the Rolhoff fan boys really are sensitive. Perhaps they should fix that guy's slipping Rolhoff instead of defending the un-defendable. Over 40 posts and the damn thing still sucks.


You're bashing the Speedhub without any real life experience just from what you read here from guys who bought theirs used.

Bravo !


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Those hubs didn't work new, the original owners dump them and some poor sucker is stuck, that's the 10% out-of-box failure rate. Stop bashing me and get that poor soul's slipping hub working, shouldn't be hard for such a well engineered piece....


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

techfersure said:


> swift,I can be won over,how durable is the hub for drops,high speed doubles and rock gardens,hucks,etc.most of my average daily rides incorporates this terrain,what hub are you using.


I'm an aggressive rider and I'm almost 4years riding on my Rohloff, without a single hiccup. I'm on the 3rd chain, 4th oil change, 2nd rim, and that's the only maintenance I've done. ...Expensive to buy but it becomes more comparable the longer you own it.

If there's a downside, IMO, it's the fact that it's built into the wheel. I know how to build my own wheels, so not a big deal for me but for someone who's not comfortable doing it themselves, it can get expensive if they're hard on said wheels. It can also be inconvenient if they run into trouble in the Spring/Summer, when it can be challenging to get on the LBS's service calendar.

Good luck!


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## swift (Apr 3, 2007)

pursuiter said:


> Those hubs didn't work new, the original owners dump them and some poor sucker is stuck, that's the 10% out-of-box failure rate. Stop bashing me and get that poor soul's slipping hub working, shouldn't be hard for such a well engineered piece....


Never ridden a Rohloff, yet plenty to say about them. 

I don't know where you get your 10% failure rate. Pretty convenient it's such a nice round number like 10, eh? Why not 8% or 13%? I'm sure it's valid though. After all, why would anyone exaggerate or make stuff up on the internet?

Oh well, none of this really matters. ...MINE ROCKS!!! :thumbsup:


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## fokof (Apr 24, 2006)

69,6% of statistics are made on the spots on the Interwebs


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## techfersure (Dec 17, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback swift,and might have too seriously consider the Rohloff in the future.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

I don't have to smoke crack to know it's bad, I know it's bad 'cause I read about it in the news. Why are used purchasers having issues if the hub wasn't bad when sold? And how is it that such a good design seems to have trouble when sold to a second owner....


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## fokof (Apr 24, 2006)

....and of course , everybody that buys an Alfine or any other IGH than a Speedhub , second hand , will have a lifetime of trouble free service , because it is engeneered in a way that it can't fail in any way possible. Even bought used.....
Since you enlighten us so gently , we now can see the light , yes ladies and gentleman , that light (pursuiter ) tells us that the Speedhub is a piece of crap and all those who have bought it are wrong and that He , oh yes my lord , only "HE" knows the truth.

Aleluyah (or whatever)


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## Climbercraig66 (Oct 16, 2010)

Retracted my statement. Way off topic and too rude.


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## Climbercraig66 (Oct 16, 2010)

Oh, and yes. A Chris King IGH would be sweet. But I agree with the previous poster, in that they are probably very comfortable in their current business model and an IGH venture would probably be a bit of a stretch. Based on what they currently charge for components, their version of an IGH would be way too expensive to actively compete with the current market offerings. 

And believe it or not, I agree with Pursuiter, that patents would be a major hurdle.


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

Here's the thread where Rolhoff admits the out-of-box defect rate is 1~2%:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=464277&highlight=rolhoff

I couldn't find the thread where the Rolhoff's US service tech is quoted as saying it's closer to 10%. The high number of defective used units is a great clue for anyone with mass production experience.



Climbercraig66 said:


> ...Seriously dude, get a life. ...Meeting a guy like you.


You should skip the insults and try to get that poor sucker's hub working. Another day goes by and his Rolhoff still sucks. You own one, by your reasoning that makes you an expert.


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## fokof (Apr 24, 2006)

pursuiter said:


> You should skip the insults and try to get that poor sucker's hub working. Another day goes by and his Rolhoff still sucks. You own one, by your reasoning that makes you an expert.


Can you help me with my Shimano ?

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=675576


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## pursuiter (May 28, 2008)

I tried, you're the only person I've ever heard that has that issue. I ride my 8R35 in some of Chicago's worst and can't duplicate your issue. If you're local I'd be glad to have a look in person.


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## fokof (Apr 24, 2006)

I'm in Montreal.

Since your an internet great , check the difference with where you are.



Anyways , I reminded you of my winter thread just to say that other hubs have trouble too , not just the Speedhub.

I'll stop here.....


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## Climbercraig66 (Oct 16, 2010)

Apologies to Pursuiter; Realized my own hypocrisy when I read another thing I posted about "How I didn't give a F#@* if someone bad mouthed my hub" 

Look at me getting all riled up and embarrassing myself. Too bad there isn't a "morning after" pill for internet forums. 

Anyway, sorry you didn't get a chance to try a Rohloff. If you like the Alfine, you'd love the Rohloff. Every product has off-the-shelf failures and failures that arrive later down the road. Don't let a handful of failure reports give you the wrong idea. Like I've said elsewhere, just remember the hubs that you never hear anything about. There is alot of them.

And no, I am no expert. I did try to assist a couple folks, but it seems that it was no help at all. Oh well, at least I tried. I'm just a guy that studied the hub, took it apart and made a Youtube video for people to learn from. 

Happy Trails

P.S. Deleting my rude post. Enjoy your Alfine.


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## Timbo (Jan 8, 2004)

On balance, you have to admit that the positive reports on the Speedhub vastly out number the negative ones. You should also factor in the phenomenon that unhappy customers are often the most vocal and vociferous, or rather, that happy customers are less unlikely to speak up.

I would also take with a pinch of salt any 10% defect rates (first I've heard that), especially if they come from the ex-US distributor who IIRC did not have a good relationship with Rohloff Germany.

I don't think you see that many Speedhubs on DH bikes for a few reasons:
a) The gear range is way bigger than necessary for DH bikes and the spacing between gears is greater than preferable.
b) The twist shifter is pretty horrible out of the box and really unsuited to something intense like DH.
c) Gear hub DHers with their multi thousand currency DH bikes can afford to replace their Shimano hubs every couple of seasons anyway.

For my part I can honestly say I haven't had a single problem with mine for the past 7 years. All I've done are the routine oil changes, and I've probably been a bit lax with getting around to doing those.

Your opinion of Rohloff does seem rather obtuse and derisory given your total lack of experience with the product and repeated presentation of uncorroborated "facts", but whatever...


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