# Klein Mantra - Thumbs Up ? Thumbs Down ?



## T 3 (Jan 12, 2004)

In all the information I've run across regarding the Mantra it seems that the feelings about this bike run either hot or cold,love it or hate it.I don't recall seeing as much polarization about any other frame.I wonder why.... Opinions ?


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

T 3 said:


> In all the information I've run across regarding the Mantra it seems that the feelings about this bike run either hot or cold,love it or hate it.I don't recall seeing as much polarization about any other frame.I wonder why.... Opinions ?


I don't really know if this considered a 'vintage' type rig...at least not yet. I think it's a bit new personally.
As far as love/hate...I don't think the suspension design is all that great (compaired to other designs available at the time) and it's an ugly bike to boot.
Of course, this is all just my $.02 and might not be worth even that...


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## idoru (Jan 14, 2004)

Not too sure if they are ugly, I know one thing, mine rides better with a rigid for than it ever did with a suspension one ~ seems a bit odd, but its true


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## erkan (Jan 18, 2004)

You mean it absorbs more bumbs without a suspension fork than with one?


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## bulC (Mar 12, 2004)

*thumbs up*



T 3 said:


> In all the information I've run across regarding the Mantra it seems that the feelings about this bike run either hot or cold,love it or hate it.I don't recall seeing as much polarization about any other frame.I wonder why.... Opinions ?


It's the best-riding unified rear triangle design, better than the homegrown, catamount, Ibis, or voodoo. I tested one and thought it was an exceptional climber. I note that Uncle Knobby/John Olsen also really really likes the Mantra.


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## tl1 (Dec 21, 2003)

idoru said:


> Not too sure if they are ugly, I know one thing, mine rides better with a rigid for than it ever did with a suspension one ~ seems a bit odd, but its true


 They were originally designed as a suspension bike to be used with a rigid fork. I don't know what year yours is but if you look at the angle of shock activation when the rigid front of the bike is raised up going over a bump you can see the thinking behind it.


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## Guitar Ted (Jan 14, 2004)

*Ugly- Yes!*

I was a HUGE klein fanatic back then, ('92 Attitude owner) , and I swore that the minute Klein figured out a dually, I'd buy it. Well....that huge top tube with the massive klein logo....CHEESY! I couldn't bring myself to own one.
With apologies to Rumphy, but that Mantra design has always reminded me of a Slingshot. Similar principal at work there. Excepting that Slings are way cooler bikes!


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Guitar Ted said:


> I was a HUGE klein fanatic back then, ('92 Attitude owner) , and I swore that the minute Klein figured out a dually, I'd buy it. Well....that huge top tube with the massive klein logo....CHEESY! I couldn't bring myself to own one.
> With apologies to Rumphy, but that Mantra design has always reminded me of a Slingshot. Similar principal at work there. Excepting that Slings are way cooler bikes!


The new prototypes do look to be similar...


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## Bikin' Bric (Sep 7, 2003)

*thumbs way up*

I owned one of those as one time, I loved it. Stood up to mostly everything that I could put it through until a nasty stick-in-the-spokes accident cracked the dropout and ruined the frame, I bought it used so I had no warranty, DOH!

Anyways, that bike rocked, hardcore. Climbed like nothing I've ever thrown my leg over (except my Avalanche  I also thought that the big boom tube was pretty styling, you certainly get lots of looks riding this bike. I loved mine, and it is dearly missed 

1999 Klein Mantra Comp, heavily upgraded


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

I believe I read somewhere that this is Gary Klein's favorite out of all the Klein bikes he has built and the one he currently rides. That's gotta be worth something.

Gotta love the Mantra's with Cameleon colored paint too!

Also the first and only Klein that I'm aware of that was offered in "carbon version" (only some of the Mantra's are Aluminum).

-mtnwing
www.carbonbicycles.com


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## Bikin' Bric (Sep 7, 2003)

mtnwing said:


> I believe I read somewhere that this is Gary Klein's favorite out of all the Klein bikes he has built and the one he currently rides. That's gotta be worth something.
> 
> Gotta love the Mantra's with Cameleon colored paint too!
> 
> ...


There were alot of aluminum mantras, I beleive more than there were carbon ones. I could be wrong though, just that I've seen more aluminum ones than carbon ones.


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## T 3 (Jan 12, 2004)

mtnwing said:


> I believe I read somewhere that this is Gary Klein's favorite out of all the Klein bikes he has built and the one he currently rides. That's gotta be worth something.
> 
> Gotta love the Mantra's with Cameleon colored paint too!
> 
> ...


Here's a picture of mine.I'm very happy with the way this bike performs.I can't imagine a bike as light as this performing all that much better when hitting rough terrain.

Like any bike, proper set-up as far as finding a good riding position is really important.From experience my guess is that some of the people who don't like the Mantra are positioned too far forward.I started this thread because I'm surprised as how most of the opinions I've seen speak highly of the Mantra,but those who don't like it seem to have especially loathsome opinions of it.I'm interested in hearing what people like and dislike about it.....


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2004)

Rumpfy said:


> The new prototypes do look to be similar...


this is an early Mantra patent drawing with a very similar shock design and rigid fork:










Carsten


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## dirtpaws (Jan 2, 2004)

*I just starting riding a URT frame*

I recently finished building up my URT frame.

Why do some not like them?
For all practical purposes, there is no suspension when standing. This mean you can bomb down fast descents like you can with an active suspension design that are on current dualies.

I imagine that's why they are not well liked by some because they want suspension all the time, not just while seated.

I really like mine, not a Mantra but a Catamount (different pivot location and less travel). It suits my XC riding style and fireroad trails. When descending, you have to choose the smoothest line as if you were on a hardtail. I wouldn't take down Big Bear chair lift run, but I have another bike for that.

You have to learn how to ride bikes with the URT sweet spots. They have their handling characteristics that different from more active designs. Proper setup is also key.


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## neveride (Feb 7, 2004)

*Neat trick with Mantras*

Here's a cool trick to try with Mantra's.
Sit on the seat and make the suspension bob up and down, notice how it feels.
Now grab just the front brake and do the same thing, notice how the suspension feels.
Now grab just the rear brake and do the same thing, notice how the suspension feels.
Now grab both brakes and while noticing how the suspension feels, imagine ripping down a rocky singletrack, feathering the bakes. Hmm...
All of the URT bikes had their own little oddities, as do most suspension bikes, but this was the one I remember most.

Strangely, I actually do recall that when the Mantras were first reviewed as prototypes, they did say the were designed with a rigid fork in mind.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

LOL...Gary Klein tries to patent everything, without ever bothering to check to see if its been done already. Think 1993, One-Off Titanium and Trimble had a URT with a trimble carbon boomtube front end and a One-Off Ti rear swingarm that's exactly the same shape as the slingshot/mantra rear end. Oh, and the shock? It was an air shock consisting of a truck innertube, in a special canvas bag, with steel cables, exactly how that Klein Patent pic is located. They built about 20 of the bikes for customers and got at least two magazine articles on the bikes (including Bicycle Guide and MBA).


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

incidently, anyone else remember the magazine interview with Roger Durham (owner/inventor behind bullseye), with the silver fat tube aluminium bike frame with the court case exhibit label still attached?

It was a frame, that roger made for his niece, to ride around the campus of UCLA, in the early 70s (when Gary Klein was still in HS), that wouldn't rust. It was used by Cannondale as a defence when Gary tried to sue them for infringing his patent on oversized aluminium bicycle frames (a shining example of the US patent office issuing patents for stuff not actually new or innovative). Roger made quite a few of those frames for friends of his niece apparently, and thousands and thousands of UCLA students saw the things.


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## laffeaux (Jan 4, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> (a shining example of the US patent office issuing patents for stuff not actually new or innovative)


I don't believe it's the Patent Office's job to research every patent for prior use. If it were our national budget for patent research would be out of control. The patent application asks for prior use, and the applicant provides it. If someone can provide examples of prior use the patent can eb overturned. It's a lot simplier than hiring an army of investigators for each patent application.

That said, patents are often given for ideas that are not new. But in this case, the fact that 20 bikes were made is not something anyone in Washington would ever have known.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> LOL...Gary Klein tries to patent everything, without ever bothering to check to see if its been done already. Think 1993, One-Off Titanium and Trimble had a URT with a trimble carbon boomtube front end and a One-Off Ti rear swingarm that's exactly the same shape as the slingshot/mantra rear end. Oh, and the shock? It was an air shock consisting of a truck innertube, in a special canvas bag, with steel cables, exactly how that Klein Patent pic is located. They built about 20 of the bikes for customers and got at least two magazine articles on the bikes (including Bicycle Guide and MBA).


Should we be laughing?! Seems to be an successful business tactic if you can get away with it?! Who's to say he didn't check . . . maybe he just didn't TELL . . .

Patent's sure do look good in marketing literature though, don't they? Very impressive but most of the time you have no idea what's been patented or why . . . I think half the time that's the reason they get submitted.

Patent law often seems more art than science to me . . . yet coincidentelly it's about protecting IP which is percieved to be scientific in nature.

-mtnwing
www.carbonbicycles.com


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## TheRedMantra (Jan 12, 2004)

-I loved my Mantra. It was an earlier one (97-8) and was just amazing even with the fox alps 5 pos rear shock. I outgrew it though so I got me a specialized. I miss that Klein. I'd ride a Mantra over a FSR any day. At least now I've got an Attitude so I am not Kleinless.
-Idoru and Neveride ,according to the old Klein website, the Mantra was his favorite Klein, and it was designed for a *short travel fork*, not a rigid one.
-And Mtnwing, as for the use of carbon in other Kleins, the Adepts had carbon swingarms, so the Mantras were not the only Klein mtn bikes with carbon frame parts.


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## mtnwing (Jan 13, 2004)

TheRedMantra said:


> -And Mtnwing, as for the use of carbon in other Kleins, the Adepts had carbon swingarms, so the Mantras were not the only Klein mtn bikes with carbon frame parts.


Thanks for the note on the Adepts . . . wasn't aware of this.

Re: Mantra's - my local shop still has a bunch of NOS frames/matching forks in stock in both carbon and aluminun versions should anyone want one.

-mtnwing
www.carbonbicycles.com
carbonbikes(at)mountainbikes(dot)net

Searching for: 
Miyata 12000 Carbon Full Suspension
Intense M-1 93 era with macstrut
Crosstrac Sonoma


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## tinker2000 (Mar 6, 2005)

TheRedMantra said:


> -I loved my Mantra. It was an earlier one (97-8) and was just amazing even with the fox alps 5 pos rear shock. I outgrew it though so I got me a specialized. I miss that Klein. I'd ride a Mantra over a FSR any day. At least now I've got an Attitude so I am not Kleinless.
> -Idoru and Neveride ,according to the old Klein website, the Mantra was his favorite Klein, and it was designed for a *short travel fork*, not a rigid one.
> -And Mtnwing, as for the use of carbon in other Kleins, the Adepts had carbon swingarms, so the Mantras were not the only Klein mtn bikes with carbon frame parts.


I have a 98 goldfish mantra and think its fantastic; I bought it in 98 and have never wanted anything else.. Had a bit of a tough time with the Geometry when z1 bombers were fitted, but since F80RLT fox forx geometry is backand it feels fantastic again
I am led to believe that this frame works best with 50-80mm forks...Said the website years ago


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## Master Shake (Mar 6, 2005)

T 3 said:


> In all the information I've run across regarding the Mantra it seems that the feelings about this bike run either hot or cold,love it or hate it.I don't recall seeing as much polarization about any other frame.I wonder why.... Opinions ?


 I wouldn't give a squirt of piss for a Mantra. Take all the negatives of a URT, and move the pivot a FOOT higher, amplifying those characteristics by about a million percent. The carbon was Treks way of making them cheaper. Most of those broke. The carbon on the Adept look familiar? Look at the Gary Fisher Sugar, or the Trek OCLV. Many many of those are now broken as well. Even Mantra's name didn't fit with the brand. Sounds like Gary Klein's been hanging around with that old hack Gary Fisher. Or at least their marketing guys. Attitude, Rascal, Adroit, Pinnacle, Pinnacle Elite, Top Gun, Adept, Pulse... Mantra? The beginning of the end of Klein is embodied in that bike.


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## TheRedMantra (Jan 12, 2004)

Master Shake said:


> I wouldn't give a squirt of piss for a Mantra. Take all the negatives of a URT, and move the pivot a FOOT higher, amplifying those characteristics by about a million percent. The carbon was Treks way of making them cheaper. Most of those broke. The carbon on the Adept look familiar? Look at the Gary Fisher Sugar, or the Trek OCLV. Many many of those are now broken as well. Even Mantra's name didn't fit with the brand. Sounds like Gary Klein's been hanging around with that old hack Gary Fisher. Or at least their marketing guys. Attitude, Rascal, Adroit, Pinnacle, Pinnacle Elite, Top Gun, Adept, Pulse... Mantra? The beginning of the end of Klein is embodied in that bike.


A lot of thought went into the design. There is a reason for the ulta-high pivot. Here is a nice read on it: Link


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## TobyNobody (Mar 17, 2004)

*Mantra*



Master Shake said:


> I wouldn't give a squirt of piss for a Mantra. Take all the negatives of a URT, and move the pivot a FOOT higher, amplifying those characteristics by about a million percent. The carbon was Treks way of making them cheaper. Most of those broke. The carbon on the Adept look familiar? Look at the Gary Fisher Sugar, or the Trek OCLV. Many many of those are now broken as well. Even Mantra's name didn't fit with the brand. Sounds like Gary Klein's been hanging around with that old hack Gary Fisher. Or at least their marketing guys. Attitude, Rascal, Adroit, Pinnacle, Pinnacle Elite, Top Gun, Adept, Pulse... Mantra? The beginning of the end of Klein is embodied in that bike.


A few racer dudes I knew really loved that design.
Sprinting = rigid,
sitting and spinning = suspension.


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## Master Shake (Mar 6, 2005)

Yeah, I've read that before. Every design has a lot of thought into it. And there are reasons for all kinds of wonderful things, but that doesn't make it right. This is the biggest example of covering your ass in the whole thing. In a URT, the pivot placement is crucial to about a half a dozen different systems going on, and angle of incident is the weakest of all of these. If this is as much thought as they did put into it, it's no wonder the bike turned out like it did. I can't imagine they'd simply overlook everything else out of ignorance, so it makes me wonder what made them decide this was the most important aspect. Maybe they spent too much time on John Castellanos ideas, or realized that all the other decent pivot locations were patented, & just went to that extreme...

As screwey as it is, it doesn't kill anyone to ride it, and just goes to prove that you can get used to riding anything. Hell, a lof of people even like those old Trek Y bikes.

 *Question: Why is the pivot so high?* 
*Answer:* The relationship of the rider's CG to the pivot is critical to make it work. That's also why we are so fussy about the fit of the bike. Some riders want to show a lot of seatpost for fashion. On a Mantra if they sit too high above the pivot they won't get the performance intended. 

A big reason for the pivot location is the angle of attack of the rear wheel. We're getting pretty tech here, so lets envision the extremes of where you might put the pivot, and how that effects the bike when you hit a bump. 

Imagine you're on a bike with a pivot at the same height as the rear axle and you hit a bump as high as the rear axle. The suspension would not move, but the inertia of your CG would carry you forward...over the bars. Now imagine the pivot was directly over the rear axle. When you hit the bump, the wheel would move directly backwards initially, then pivot upwards allowing the wheel to climb over the bump. 

Now lets imagine hitting a small bump, say 1/2" tall. If the pivot is directly above the rear axle, we'll get almost no suspension movement. But a low pivot bike will allow the wheel to move up and over quite nicely. 

From our analysis, the ideal angle of attack, measured as the angle between the ground and a line described by the pivot point and the contact patch of the rear tire is around 30 degrees. This allows very good suspension action over bumps in the 1/2" to 6" range.


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## flyingsuperpetis (Jan 16, 2004)

Master Shake said:


> Yeah, I've read that before. Every design has a lot of thought into it. And there are reasons for all kinds of wonderful things, but that doesn't make it right. This is the biggest example of covering your ass in the whole thing. In a URT, the pivot placement is crucial to about a half a dozen different systems going on, and angle of incident is the weakest of all of these. If this is as much thought as they did put into it, it's no wonder the bike turned out like it did. I can't imagine they'd simply overlook everything else out of ignorance, so it makes me wonder what made them decide this was the most important aspect. Maybe they spent too much time on John Castellanos ideas, or realized that all the other decent pivot locations were patented, & just went to that extreme...
> 
> As screwey as it is, it doesn't kill anyone to ride it, and just goes to prove that you can get used to riding anything. Hell, a lof of people even like those old Trek Y bikes.


 So the gloves are off. There is indeed quite a lot going on in a URT system, and the Klein/Castellano high pivot is unlike any other lower pivot system. Not necessarily bad, just accentuating and amplifying certain characteristics over others. Obviously, there's a time & place for everything, and this system has its place with certain people and riding styles. Not my favourite either from a mechanical standpoint, but some folks enjoy riding far worse. Anyone have a pic ot the WTB bike? Forget the name now...


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## Lloyd395 (Dec 14, 2004)

*mantra*

I always thought the Mantra was a gaudy Trek brainchild that had no business being called a Klein. Sorry Red...at least its not a huffy!


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## RobynC (Feb 14, 2004)

Anyone have a pic ot the WTB bike? Forget the name now...

BON TEMPE


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## tinker2000 (Mar 6, 2005)

Master Shake said:


> I wouldn't give a squirt of piss for a Mantra. Take all the negatives of a URT, and move the pivot a FOOT higher, amplifying those characteristics by about a million percent. The carbon was Treks way of making them cheaper. Most of those broke. The carbon on the Adept look familiar? Look at the Gary Fisher Sugar, or the Trek OCLV. Many many of those are now broken as well. Even Mantra's name didn't fit with the brand. Sounds like Gary Klein's been hanging around with that old hack Gary Fisher. Or at least their marketing guys. Attitude, Rascal, Adroit, Pinnacle, Pinnacle Elite, Top Gun, Adept, Pulse... Mantra? The beginning of the end of Klein is embodied in that bike.


If you like pedalling on singletrack and are not a downhill maniac, a mantra is very very fast. I have friends with the latest 'bobbing billies' that just cannot get up hills that my mantra can....granted downhill can get a bit scary with the seatpost pushing up, but it takes a lot longer to go up hills than down....and overall the mantra is quicker.....and comfy to boot....even stood up!


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

*Rumpfy,I think I found my new bike!*



Rumpfy said:


> The new prototypes do look to be similar...


Me: Guess what wife,I'm making room for another bike!  
Wife: Oh %**@# !


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## Master Shake (Mar 6, 2005)

*but now I am a vovlo driving soccer mom.*



Built4Speed said:


> Me: Guess what wife,I'm making room for another bike!
> Wife: Oh %**@# !


 No no B4S, start by telling her you're making room for all the chicks your gonna get from racing! Then settle for the bike.


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## Shayne (Jan 14, 2004)

*Actually the Mantra is Pre-Trek*

The first Mantra prototypes came out in 1993-1994 about a year before Trek bought Klein.


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## TheRedMantra (Jan 12, 2004)

I never had a problem with my mantra. The only reason I sold it is because I outgrew it. I ride an 03 fsr, and have to say, its nice, but I prefer the mantra. It might not ride as smooth, but it did ride better in other ways. Climbing was amazing. Sprinting was great. I cant complain about the weight either. The real question is, how does T3 like his. This is his thread originally.


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## Master Shake (Mar 6, 2005)

TheRedMantra said:


> ...The real question is, how does T3 like his. This is his thread originally.


 The real question was, what does everyone else think of theirs. My opinion is it's an abomination. It may have been pre-trek, but so were one or two other faddish suspension ideas they had. Klein may have perfected the lightweight aluminum race bike, but they didn't know jack about suspension, and it shows in this one. Plus, it's ugly.

Gary was very patent-happy (the one on how stiff/strong a rim can be comes to mind), and as D8 said, patented over others prior works more than once. It unfortunately does happen often. It's not the job of the patent clerk, but the job of the patent attouney you hire, which is why Patent attouneys are so expensive. They have to search and search through thousands of technical pages, to try to find similarities between what you're trying to patent and what's already out there. When people decide to go cheap and patent things themselves, they tend to get a bit overzealous, and do very little searching and checking. They wind up causing big expensive problems for everyone down the line, and this drives the price of patent atts even higher. We have an in house patent attourney who does this all day, and occasionally sends out threatening letters to people like Gary Klein when they've overstepped.

*Klein Mantra - Thumbs Up ? Thumbs Down ?*

In all the information I've run across regarding the Mantra it seems that the feelings about this bike run either hot or cold,love it or hate it.I don't recall seeing as much polarization about any other frame.I wonder why.... Opinions ?


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

*Hahahhahahaahahaaaaaa....*



Master Shake said:


> No no B4S, start by telling her you're making room for all the chicks your gonna get from racing! Then settle for the bike.


Uh,I did tell her that. Good thing I got a cot in the garage,next to my bikes.


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## Daner (Apr 30, 2004)

Many, but not all of the parts necessary to build up quite a few Bon Tempe frames still exist, but the cost of having the little bits fabricated far exceeds the potential profit to be made in the marketplace. That is a shame, because it is the best URT that I have ever tried (I had the chance to swap between John Castellano's Silk Ti and his Bon Tempe on a ride at Annadel a few years ago.)

http://www.kalomtb.com/frames/wtbframes.htm



RobynC said:


> Anyone have a pic ot the WTB bike? Forget the name now...
> 
> BON TEMPE


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## Daner (Apr 30, 2004)

If you have access to NOS Mantras I may have a buyer for you. Let me know what is available and at what prices.



mtnwing said:


> Thanks for the note on the Adepts . . . wasn't aware of this.
> 
> Re: Mantra's - my local shop still has a bunch of NOS frames/matching forks in stock in both carbon and aluminun versions should anyone want one.
> 
> ...


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## tinker2000 (Mar 6, 2005)

Master Shake said:


> The real question was, what does everyone else think of theirs. My opinion is it's an abomination. It may have been pre-trek, but so were one or two other faddish suspension ideas they had. Klein may have perfected the lightweight aluminum race bike, but they didn't know jack about suspension, and it shows in this one. Plus, it's ugly.
> 
> Ugly is very personal .....I like it, indeed think its a stunning bike... Thinking of Ugly...Cannondales with lefty's, most downhill bikes, NORCO bikes and anything with a frame shaped like an electric guitar..
> 
> Granted the Mantra frame is unusual, but it is simplistic, elegant and reliable...In 7 years, the pivot has not seen grease or other lube and has no play. Can you say that about your virtual pivot, or your horst link machines?


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## noslogan (Jan 21, 2004)

*Daner, check your PM*



Daner said:


> If you have access to NOS Mantras I may have a buyer for you. Let me know what is available and at what prices.


 Check PM


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## jkelman (Nov 11, 2004)

*Love or Hate? I'm in the latter camp*

I had long read that Mantras tended to elicit a hot/cold relationship and wondered what I would think of them. I remember that when I began riding in 1995 or so I thought the Mantra looked cool and uber modern (but then this is also the period when I insisted on having a 150mm stem with a flat bar...). This past summer, however, I worked on/updated a Mantra for a friend of a friend, and I must say that I was not impressed. Perhaps it was merely a matter of setup, but when sitting down and pedaling, the thing bobbed like hell, more pronounced than any other frame I'd ridden (4 bars + single pivots mostly). This occurred even after changing the preload on the spring. I eventually slapped a Romic (a functioning Romic, mind you...) that made the bike much more plush and far more efficient. Just my anecdotal experience.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2005)

who cares how they ride when they are looking cool 

i am very tempted to try modern shocks front and rear on mine to see what difference it makes. the set-up of the stock shocks makes so much difference. with the englunds in the judy i can much easier match the rear shock set-up and the beast rides much better.

but most of all i like to look at it


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