# Catastrophic failure Niner Carbon Fork



## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

*Edit since it seems some people have a problem with the way I posted the original thread.*

These are the pictures:


















The circumstances were he was JRA when it snapped. No impact or crash involved.

The fork was owned for 18 months and well maintained by a certified bike mechanic.

The rider ended up with 15 stitches and a fractured orbital and was in the hospital for a couple days.


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## Pabs (Aug 4, 2007)

What type of terrain was this on?


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## Stupendous Man (Jan 12, 2004)

wowsers! can you give us the details?


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## MyMilkExpired (Nov 1, 2010)

This pertains to my interests as I run one... More details please. 

Good vibes to your buddy, hope he gets back on that horse again soon!


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

He was riding here:
Fountainhead Regional Park Mountain Bike Trail in Fairfax, Virginia || SINGLETRACKS.COM

The steerer tube is still attached to the bike frame. So it looks like something caused the fork to break completely off from it.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Hope your buddy heals quickly. Any details about what actually took place?


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Just riding along ? Hit a tree ? Rode off a cliff ?


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

92gli said:


> Just riding along ? Hit a tree ? Rode off a cliff ?


No tree or accident. Just riding.


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

He was simply riding FH and it sheared off on a small, simple DH section. 

He rides very smoothly with very little impact to the fork..... His fork was ~18 months old.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

What *had* he been doing before the unfortunate failure? Not trying to be a dick, just trying to delineate some of the details. Was he riding any stunts, rock gardens, fall off of a skinny, g-out? Trying to paint a bigger picture.


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

AZ.MTNS said:


> What *had* he been doing before the unfortunate failure? Not trying to be a dick, just trying to delineate some of the details. Was he riding any stunts, rock gardens, fall off of a skinny, g-out? Trying to paint a bigger picture.


I don't know, but I've ridden with him in before and he doesn't do anything crazy. The worst thing I can think of is hopping over logs and riding down rock gardens. Fountainhead is pretty bumpy especially in a couple sections where there's a lot of erosion. I can imagine going down one of those sections and getting a little too front heavy and cracking a fork like that. It probably wouldn't happen on my Fox.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

From looking at pictures, the fork seems to be one piece carbon legs and crown, with a separate carbon steer tube that is inserted or bonded or something to the lowers. So, did the steer tube pull out, or did it snap, or what?


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

smilinsteve said:


> From looking at pictures, the fork seems to be one piece carbon legs and crown, with a separate carbon steer tube that is inserted or bonded or something to the lowers. So, did the steer tube pull out, or did it snap, or what?


He said the steerer is still in one piece stuck inside the headtube


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

So it looks like it is the attachment method, between steerer and crown, that failed:


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## Holmes (Jun 23, 2008)

Ouch - hope your buddy heals up soon.


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## Schultz29 (Oct 12, 2005)

Scary, I have one of those. Did his fork have a tapered steerer? Mine is and I hope that makes it a little stronger? This has been a pretty nice fork with excellent steering precision. However, I have NO faith in carbon fiber whatsoever and I am constantly thinking about catastrophe ever time I ride something rougher than asphalt. It holds me back from time to time, as I'm always wondering if it will fail me in a big way. Carbon fiber has failed me before, there is no warning when it goes and it breaks in a catastrophic nature. This post has made a big impression on me, I think I'll sell this fork and get something in steel that will fail more slowly. Salsa is offering a steel fork with a thru-axle dropout. That may get me the stiffness I want, without the worry of carbon fiber


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## Ryan G. (Aug 13, 2004)

He wasn't recently riding in South Africa was he?

Quick healing vibes to your buddy!


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

Whoa! Hope your friend heals quickly. Wonder how NINER will handle THIS one??


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

Good vibes to your friend, hope he heals quickly. I'd like to see how Niner handles this one too


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Schultz29 said:


> I think I'll sell this fork and get something in steel that will fail more slowly.


Don't be so sure...
a buddy of mine ended up on his face when his steel fork snapped.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

that sucks. i hope your buddy heals up quickly.
unfortunately as usual... a dramatic photo and little to no information.
i'm also one who would like as much first-hand info as possible.


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## racerx04 (Nov 27, 2005)

I'd also like to hear more about this, I'm considering one for my next build.


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

meltingfeather said:


> that sucks. i hope your buddy heals up quickly.
> unfortunately as usual... a dramatic photo and little to no information.
> i'm also one who would like as much first-hand info as possible.


 What else you want to know?


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

What else you want to know? Bunny hops no, head on into a tree no, fell off a cliff no. I ride with this guy every week I know how he rides. My best guess is he took a dive off one of the eroded parts of the trail where there's some small drop offs. It gets a little knarly in those parts but nothing a good Fox F29er can't handle.


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## racerx04 (Nov 27, 2005)

CupOfJava said:


> Broken fork smashed face. What else you want to know?


This fork has a great reputation and is in use by many here, so I'm guessing folks want some particulars...


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

racerx04 said:


> This fork has a great reputation and is in use by many here, so I'm guessing folks want some particulars...





> He was simply riding FH and it sheared off on a small, simple DH section.





> He rides very smoothly with very little impact to the fork..... his fork was ~18 months old.


If you have any questions I'll ask him. What else do you want to know?


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## racerx04 (Nov 27, 2005)

Sorry to hear your buddy got hurt, hopefully he will heal quickly and get back on the bike.

In regards to questions things like how the fork was treated in several rides prior to this occuring, was the crownrace installed correctly, any crashes?


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Close up pictures of the fork at the break point, inside and out, and the headtube with steerer attached. Close up of the end of the steerer. Description of what happened, was it cause by an impact? On what? How hard? how sudden was the break? was there a snapping sound? was part of the steer tube still attached when he went down? Was he braking at the time? Did it fail forward or backward, or sideways? 
For starters.


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

> ozone dood named christopher... right after the race (at least he finished). you can see from the rusty part of the failure that it had been cracked.


oh snap! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!



meltingfeather said:


> Don't be so sure...
> a buddy of mine ended up on his face when his steel fork snapped.


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## seat_boy (May 16, 2006)

From the rust, I'd guess the steel fork had been cracked for a while. A close inspection might have revealed this, which is more difficult with carbon.



meltingfeather said:


> Don't be so sure...
> a buddy of mine ended up on his face when his steel fork snapped.


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## D1PHAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Best wishes to your friend. This is a very unfortunate situation.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Oweeee, hope your bud heals up fast ad it's nothing more than those few stitches and he didn't do anything permanent to the noggin. Don't like carbon and this illustrates why, as to the steel fork that snapped, as said, looks like there's some rust about and was probably cracked a good inspection would have revealed it most likely.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

CupOfJava said:


> oh snap! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


what's your point?

after the race he was riding in an open field, did a stoppie and the fork snapped without warning, sending him to the ground.

if you mean to imply by quoting me that you think he finished the race with his fork like that or that he did have forewarning you are wrong.

nice try, though. 

after all: "broken fork, smashed face, what else do you need to know?" right? or that only applies to _your_ friend?


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

seat_boy said:


> From the rust, I'd guess the steel fork had been cracked for a while. A close inspection might have revealed this, which is more difficult with carbon.


why do you think it's more difficult to find cracks in carbon?
I think it's easier, both visually and with sound (tapping).


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

meltingfeather said:


> what's your point?


That you lied about what happened and you have no credibility



> ozone dood named christopher... right after the race (at least he finished). you can see from the rusty part of the failure that it had been cracked.


Link to the original photo



meltingfeather said:


> Don't be so sure...
> a buddy of mine ended up on his face when his steel fork snapped.


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## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

CupOfJava said:


> What else you want to know? Bunny hops no, head on into a tree no, fell off a cliff no. I ride with this guy every week I know how he rides. My best guess is he took a dive off one of the eroded parts of the trail where there's some small drop offs. It gets a little knarly in those parts but nothing a good Fox F29er can't handle.


Wait a minuete, A NINER rigid fork is supposed to perform and take the same abuse as a FOX F29er?


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

CupOfJava said:


> That you lied about what happened and you have no credibility
> 
> Link to the original photo


Check the edit, Sherlock.
That's a serious accusation and *I in no way lied about it*. You're quick with the assumptions, aren't ya?


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

floydlippencott said:


> Wait a minuete, A NINER rigid fork is supposed to perform and take the same abuse as a FOX F29er?


 Isn't that what it's was designed for?


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

CupOfJava said:


> Isn't that what it's was designed for?


Yeah. But to the best of my knowledge this is the first break thats been reported on here. Its certainly not common.

And a good enough impact could snap any suspension fork at the same spot.


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## FR hokeypokey (Feb 6, 2009)

Hope your friend has a quick recovery. 

Why the critical questions as to how it happened or "what Niner will do about it" posts? Riding mtbs is risky, whether it be due to the trails, the rider or the equipment, something can always go wrong. It is the risk we all take when we ride.

Knowing if this guy was JRA or jumping off his garage does little to help you decide if the Niner fork (or any fork for that matter) is right for you. It was a year and a half abused fork. Could be any fork, any ride, any rider.

I understand the questions are partially to defend the product, for all we know the beginning of this "catastrophic" failure could have been caused last week by the riders garage door. But parts break when we least expect it. The margin for error gets slimmer as we try to go lighter with our part selections. Riders develop bad habits or get lazy due to suspension technology. 

Accidents like this are a good reminder to pick bikes and parts for our intended purposes and keep up with our maintenance. 

Once again, I hope the rider has a speedy recovery. Being injured sucks!


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

92gli said:


> Yeah. But to the best of my knowledge this is the first break thats been reported on here. Its certainly not common.
> 
> And a good enough impact could snap any suspension fork at the same spot.


The fork has been out for about a year. I'm not bashing Niner and never had that intention when the thread was created. Niner makes great bikes, but there got to be something said about these ultra light weight carbon forks being suitable for riding on anything other than pavement.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

CupOfJava said:


> Isn't that what it's was designed for?


Uhmmm, no. The suspension soaks up a lot of abuse, I would never ride my rigid in the same manner that I ride my suspension bike. It is unrealistic to expect a rigid carbon fork to take the same kind of abuse without a reasonable expectation of early failure. My two cents.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

92gli said:


> Yeah. But to the best of my knowledge this is the first break thats been reported on here. Its certainly not common.
> 
> And a good enough impact could snap any suspension fork at the same spot.


Here's another thread about a failed niner carbon fork:

http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/busted-niner-carbon-fork-654588.html


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

FR hokeypokey said:


> Hope your friend has a quick recovery.
> 
> Why the critical questions as to how it happened or "what Niner will do about it" posts? Riding mtbs is risky, whether it be due to the trails, the rider or the equipment, something can always go wrong. It is the risk we all take when we ride.
> 
> ...


Since you recommend that we all pick bike parts suitable for our intended purpose, isn't it logical to ask how this happened, so we can decide if this part is suitable for our intended purpose?


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Uhmmm, no. The suspension soaks up a lot of abuse, I would never ride my rigid in the same manner that I ride my suspension bike. It is unrealistic to expect a rigid carbon fork to take the same kind of abuse without a reasonable expectation of early failure. My two cents.


I ride a front suspension, but I've seen guys ride full rigid in places I wouldn't dream of going even on a full suspension bike so I'm not sure what you're talking about. If you're talking about taking 4 ft drops, then no. We don't do that kind of riding.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

CupOfJava said:


> That you lied about what happened and you have no credibility]


it's a bit ironic that falsely accusing me of lying has apparently gotten you your first (+) rep. I'm sure your normal "contributions" will even that back out after a bit.
:thumbsup:


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## floydlippencott (Sep 4, 2010)

CupOfJava said:


> I ride a front suspension, but I've seen guys ride full rigid in places I wouldn't dream of going even on a full suspension bike so I'm not sure what you're talking about. If you're talking about taking 4 ft drops, then no. We don't do that kind of riding.


 You have seen. What have you done?


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

smilinsteve said:


> Here's another thread about a failed niner carbon fork:
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/busted-niner-carbon-fork-654588.html


Come on... not even in the same ballpark. That fork obviously lost a battle with a huge rock or something. That is not "failed" in any way. In the same situation a steel rigid fork would probably be dented beyond being usable and a suspension fork would probably have holes punched in the lowers.


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## FR hokeypokey (Feb 6, 2009)

Valid point smilinsteve. I would just hope your decision is based upon a more credible source than a random forum post.

I will agree that the anecdotal story portrayed here may raise a red flag and cause you to to actually do some research before you make a part choice. But there are too many unknowns here to actually base an opinion off of it. I see you have a history here and have probably seen info from a post like this suddenly taken as fact and re-posted as to why or why not to pick a part. 

Fact remains, riding mtb is hard on parts, bad things can happen without it being anyone's fault. As mentioned, it was a 18mo old ultra light fork being ridden. That is a lot of time for a lot of stuff to happen that led to this crash.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

I know a few people with Niner Carbon forks. It seems like a lot of people really enjoy the ride of the fork, and find themselves riding harder and faster than they expected, which can lead to failure. Forgetting that you have a carbon racing fork on the front of the bike can lead to serious problems.

The fork was not built for the abuse that many suspension forks can handle. It was built as a relatively comfortable, lightweight alternative to the standard racing XC fork. You sacrifice strength for weight by choosing the carbon fork. It shouldn't be treated like every other fork, because it's not.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

92gli said:


> Come on... not even in the same ballpark. That fork obviously lost a battle with a huge rock or something. That is not "failed" in any way. In the same situation a steel rigid fork would probably be dented beyond being usable and a suspension fork would probably have holes punched in the lowers.


I wasn't drawing any conclusions; just posting to add to the readers information.


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## Patagrande (Jul 26, 2010)

Regards to your friend,

I hope that at least part of the insurance money goes to getting a Turner, may I suggest a 5 Spot.

BTW I am in no way associated with Turner, I don't even think they like me too much, but I am sincerely grateful to them, for still building a bike as well built, as balanced, and as soo utterly enjoyable to ride and own, as my 5 Spot is.
I truly believe the world would be a better place if every body owned a Turner, since we would all be much happier, in better shape and with not having to replace or fix broken stuff, we would all have more time to ride.

PG


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Condolences to your friend. And by the way, for a sparkling white smile and minty fresh breath, I use Crest toothpaste! :thumbsup:


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## PAmtbiker (Feb 2, 2005)

smilinsteve said:


> Condolences to your friend. And by the way, for a sparkling white smile and minty fresh breath, I use Crest toothpaste!


:thumbsup:  Nice...

I hope your friend heals quickly. Sucks he broke his frok.


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

I am having no issues with the carbon fork on my Niner, and trust me I ABUSE it.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

CaveGiant said:


> I am having no issues with the carbon fork on my Niner, and trust me I ABUSE it.


Is that a Carbon Dorado? Quite a bit different than Niner's rigid fork, lol. :thumbsup:


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

I think for any race-weight part, the expectation of failure is (should be) the same, whether it's steel, Ti, carbon, unobtainium, or whatever. As the weight goes down, the safety factor/margin of error gets reduced. Smaller miscalculations end up resulting in bigger penalties. Unfortunately, in this case, there was no known warning of imminent failure. Really sorry for the guy involved. It's a huge shot to the confidence in your gear, too. Personally, I carry a little extra bike weight for that little extra peace of mind (not that the same thing couldn't happen to me even with my heavier parts).

And for the record (trying to stay on topic here), rigid forks gets beat so much harder than susp. forks. That's not to say the terrain is rougher. Just that rigid forks see very high stress since they are, in fact, rigid. And even more so when a smooth rigid rider is really hauling the mail and threading the needle and makes a mistake. I think in my case, I am expecting a tire/wheel failure under those circumstances - certainly not a fork crown/steerer failure. The weakest link should be the part that you hope would cause the least injury.

More close-up, high-res. pix, please!

-F


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## dru (Sep 4, 2006)

My wife and kids got me a Tower for my birthday which is this Sat. I am soooooo glad I'm ditching the rigid fork on my Salsa El Mar. I've been worried more about the abuse toasting the DT than the fork itself. I try to ride rigid as fast as I can on my 26er hardtail and it sometimes pounds on me so bad my hands have nearly come off the bars.

I've completely given up on carbon stuff too; I just don't trust it.

Drew


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## Silentfoe (May 9, 2008)

Had to laugh at myself as I found my mouth hanging wide open while looking at the OP's picture. Wow!


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## Fishlips (Jun 15, 2007)

I think everyone with a Niner carbon fork would like to see more/better pictures of the fork, steer tube, head tube, etc., so they can inspect their own forks. 

I have been eyeing one myself, but this may make me think twice. I am still trying to gain some peace of mind with carbon steer tubes on road forks. I am fine with carbon frames, seatposts, handlebars, but carbon steer tubes for offroad use make me nervous.

Thanks for the info.


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## MyMilkExpired (Nov 1, 2010)

Fishlips said:


> I think everyone with a Niner carbon fork would like to see more/better pictures of the fork, steer tube, head tube, etc., so they can inspect their own forks.
> 
> I have been eyeing one myself, but this may make me think twice. I am still trying to gain some peace of mind with carbon steer tubes on road forks. I am fine with carbon frames, seatposts, handlebars, but carbon steer tubes for offroad use make me nervous.
> 
> Thanks for the info.


The real issue with strength and longevity is the union between the steerer and the crown.


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## racerx04 (Nov 27, 2005)

I've followed this thread since it was started and little real info has been provided about what caused the failure. Niner has a great reputation, and IMO it's being tarnished because of a picture of what appears to be a sheared off steer tube. I and several others would like more info, but haven't been able to obtain it. I certainly hope the OP's buddy fully recovers from the crash. However, I'm a bit concerned about Niner's reputation recovering from this unfortunate incident.

Another point to be made is was the fork properly maintained by checking the attachment points on a regular basis?


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## MightySchmoePong (Jan 12, 2004)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Uhmmm, no. The suspension soaks up a lot of abuse, I would never ride my rigid in the same manner that I ride my suspension bike. It is unrealistic to expect a rigid carbon fork to take the same kind of abuse without a reasonable expectation of early failure. My two cents.


Fountainhead is pretty mellow riding. Guys ride MUCH harder trails on rigid forks.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

racerx04 said:


> I've followed this thread since it was started and little real info has been provided about what caused the failure. Niner has a great reputation, and IMO it's being tarnished because of a picture of what appears to be a sheared off steer tube. I and several others would like more info, but haven't been able to obtain it. I certainly hope the OP's buddy fully recovers from the crash. However, I'm a bit concerned about Niner's reputation recovering from this unfortunate incident.
> 
> Another point to be made is was the fork properly maintained by checking the attachment points on a regular basis?


this is not about NIner. it is about carbon.. forks. It sounds like a bad idea to begin with.. then there is all kinds of denial going on this thread which makes it clear how the carbon fork thing got rollin: denial. 
It's a mountain bike. Rigid or not it is supposed to handle trails. 29ers are supposed to roll over betteer meaning one can throw it around faster. Then why should a fork, THE most important structure of a bike when it comes to safety be a bit fragile so you have to ride carefully?? Denial.. Thta's how people get sc***wed often.


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## racerx04 (Nov 27, 2005)

colker1 said:


> this is not about NIner. it is about carbon.. forks. It sounds like a bad idea to begin with.. then there is all kinds of denial going on this thread which makes it clear how the carbon fork thing got rollin: denial.
> It's a mountain bike. Rigid or not it is supposed to handle trails. 29ers are supposed to roll over betteer meaning one can throw it around faster. Then why should a fork, THE most important structure of a bike when it comes to safety be a bit fragile so you have to ride carefully?? Denial.. Thta's how people get sc***wed often.


With all due respect, I'm not seeing any denial. What I do see is a fork being blamed unjustly. Not saying this occur with the owner of the failed fork, but many folks don't maintain their equipment, push it harder than it's designed purpose and then blame the product when a failure occurs. How is that the products fault?

I routinely check my bike out before I ride and I pay very close attention to how it's performing while riding it. If something sounds funny or doesn't feel quite right, I stop and check it out. I push my stuff pretty hard and don't enjoy getting hurt. Haven't had a failure while riding yet, but have prevented a couple because of my pre-ride inspections.

This could be a case of pure product failure, I wasn't there. But this product and it's maker have a great reputation, hope it stays that way.


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

CupOfJava said:


> If you have any questions I'll ask him. What else do you want to know?


I want to know what Niner thinks of this after they have inspected the fork.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

Yeh...gotta be cautious with carbon. Perhaps the steer tube was compromised by an improper installation of fork race?

Maybe it DID just simply break...

Would like more info/pics also please.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

CupOfJava said:


> Broken fork smashed face. What else you want to know?


You felt strongly enough about it to post it up here knowing it was going to cause a stir. All we have is a dodgy phone photo in the dark of a snapped off Niner fork. A few clearer photos of the fork and bike where it snapped off would be good as theres quite a few of us here riding those forks.

You have now edited/deleted your OP which i didnt see but happy recovery to your friend, i can only go on your discription above.


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## chase1963 (Jul 31, 2007)

Would the new RDO tapered carbon 15M fork take more abuse.. just wondering. It looks beefier.


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## CupOfJava (Dec 1, 2008)

The picture is still up. I linked it from his personal page. That's all the information I have since it's not my fork. I think I was forthright with all the information as it was available to me. What you all do with it is none of my concern. Have a nice day.


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

Yawn......Sh*t breaks, Just go ride. Nothing Finer than the Carbon fork on my Niner!


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## J Bold (Jan 28, 2007)

*Note on Fountainhead Park*

There are ample of places to mess up bad here- depends on speed and what your lofting your bike off......overall you can have a mellow enough ride if you like on this circuit or balls out. 29ers for sure roll smoother but as ability increase and confident rises there is a tendency for some to get in over their heads (not to say that this is the case for this guy) but for me, on my local trails I find myself taking harder and more technical lines at faster speeds than ever and one mistake (just once) can have dire consequences when the equipment is exposed to hits beyond intended use. Hope the guy is OK and back up riding soon...


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## kiwiktm (Mar 17, 2008)

Talk to Niner about your issues , they are great , Random posts don"t mean ****. I beat the crap out of my Carbon Fork they are strong !! Worst thing about the internet is these kind of posts with lack of information.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2011)

Its funny how a photo like this causes so much fearmongering but comments about ripping the bike off the roof rack in a parking garage and the fork surviving with cosmetic scratches get glossed over. Check out the comments to the review on twentynineinches.

Niner Bikes Carbon Fork: On Test | Twenty Nine Inches


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## good4nothing (Aug 14, 2009)

AZ.MTNS said:


> Uhmmm, no. The suspension soaks up a lot of abuse, I would never ride my rigid in the same manner that I ride my suspension bike. It is unrealistic to expect a rigid carbon fork to take the same kind of abuse without a reasonable expectation of early failure. My two cents.


what he said.....


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## Fat Bob (Mar 5, 2004)

I've seen Fountainhead break a steel IF in half, being piloted by a very good rider (a very seasoned and skilled rider), Shock-a-billy can be a tough DH section regardless of material.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2011)

Geeze, Fatbob! Everybody knows custom steel bikes are known for their high rates of catastrophic failure.


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## scarkinsmel (Mar 18, 2004)

I know the guy who crashed and I actually talked to him today. I ride with the guy normally two or three times a week. He doesn't abuse his gear, he had the fork installed at a shop to specs, he maintains his equipment in a meticulous manner and if he hears a creak, groan or his bike makes any unusual noises he either fixes it or has it checked out by his local shop. 

I have no doubt that when he is done seeing doctors for his broken bones, yes he may need surgery, he will be happy to answer questions after the shop he uses contacts niner to see what they say and do about this. He didn't begin this thread and bashing the rider doesn't sit well with me. 

Should you feel the need to be Internet bad mofos please refrain until the person this actually happened to has the chance to reply, should he choose to even enter into a conversation about the incident. 

I will add that when he told me what happened and the resulting injuries I was shocked. He is not prone to exaggeration and I believe what he told me is exactly what happened. I won't repeat it as he hasn't even been able to contact niner yet due to being in the hospital and the follow up appointments.


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## anomaly (Jun 18, 2007)

Everything will fail. Hell I've seen plenty of steer tubes detach from fork crowns on steel forks that weren't properly brazed. Given the failure model I wonder if the crown race was installed properly.


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## anomaly (Jun 18, 2007)

MightySchmoePong said:


> Fountainhead is pretty mellow riding. Guys ride MUCH harder trails on rigid forks.


Aye, plenty of people ride Elizabeth's Furnace or Gambril with the same equipment.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

I am speculating that speculation will solve this crime.


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## AMCAT (Sep 10, 2009)

scarkinsmel said:


> I know the guy who crashed and I actually talked to him today. I ride with the guy normally two or three times a week. He doesn't abuse his gear, he had the fork installed at a shop to specs, he maintains his equipment in a meticulous manner and if he hears a creak, groan or his bike makes any unusual noises he either fixes it or has it checked out by his local shop.
> 
> I have no doubt that when he is done seeing doctors for his broken bones, yes he may need surgery, he will be happy to answer questions after the shop he uses contacts niner to see what they say and do about this. He didn't begin this thread and bashing the rider doesn't sit well with me.
> 
> ...


I'm with ya bro on the "internet bad mofos" One guy takes a shot at someone and everybody gangs on.Sorry to hear about your buddy and I wish him a speedy recovery


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## Combatcm (Nov 15, 2005)

The safest thing to do with a carbon part is install it, take pictures of it and then throw it out.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

scarkinsmel said:


> I know the guy who crashed and I actually talked to him today. I ride with the guy normally two or three times a week. He doesn't abuse his gear, he had the fork installed at a shop to specs, he maintains his equipment in a meticulous manner and if he hears a creak, groan or his bike makes any unusual noises he either fixes it or has it checked out by his local shop.
> 
> I have no doubt that when he is done seeing doctors for his broken bones, yes he may need surgery, he will be happy to answer questions after the shop he uses contacts niner to see what they say and do about this. He didn't begin this thread and bashing the rider doesn't sit well with me.
> 
> ...


Very well put. :thumbsup:
I wish your buddy a speedy recovery... it sucks to go down that hard.
I think what got people going is the dramatic photo with relatively little information and CupOfJava's attitude of, "broken fork, broken face, what more do you need to know?"
I wish your friend, who owned the fork and took the picture, would have started this rather than somebody who wasn't even there.
As far as talking to Niner, you might ask your other buddy to leave out mention of lawyers. Niner has no doubt caught wind of this thread. Just a suggestion. :thumbsup:


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## FR hokeypokey (Feb 6, 2009)

CupOfJava said:


> The picture is still up. I linked it from his personal page. That's all the information I have since it's not my fork. The fork is likely going back to Niner or his lawyer or whatever he plans to do with it. I think I was forthright with all the information as it was available to me. What you all do with it is none of my concern. Have a nice day.


"His lawyer"- This is exactly where I knew this thread was headed when it was first posted. It took longer than I expected, but here we are.

Why even consider legal action? From the details given, how could it possibly be the manufacturers fault? Lets review- It is a 18month old lightweight carbon fork being ridden down an apparently rocky and rough trail. It breaks from an unknown impact. I do not see how that is Niners fault in any way.

Way too often we see these stories posted here with veiled (and sometimes not so veiled) accusations of poor craftsmanship, quality or performance but with no consideration of the unrealistic expectations of the users involved. Mtb is tough on equipment and choices need to be made considering that. Why is it a surprise when the lightest tire on the market has thin sidewalls or a FS XC race bike does not stand up to the big jumps at the local DH run very well.

Consider your equipment and intended use folks.

This rant is meant for the posters, not the injured rider. I do not know the specifics of the crash or the rider. I wish him (or her) well. But unless some critical fact is being left out here, we ride, we crash, we break things. It happens. Why do some feel compelled to blame the builder, manufacturer or LBS for their own poor decisions.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

FR hokeypokey said:


> "His lawyer"- This is exactly where I knew this thread was headed when it was first posted. It took longer than I expected, but here we are.


May have just been the OP's own speculation. If the rider is as knowledgeable as everyone says I'll grant him enough credit to know better. If not, thats a shame. Because a lawyer isn't going to stop at niner, he/she's going to go after the park authority too. They want a piece from every party in the incident.


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## Menzo (Nov 24, 2007)

We knew carbon footprints now that guy unfortunately knows what is carbon "faceprints" ...

Seriously I hope your friend get well and is back on track quickly without any scars or long term problem.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2011)

Sorry to hear that this happened, but it will in no way keep me from riding my Niner fork the same way I have always done.

This is one failure in 100's, maybe 1000's of forks sold and really doesn't mean a whole lot in the way of any kind of trend... Nowhere on Niner's site or fork literature does it restrict you from what kind of riding is done on this fork.

The only thing they suggest is regular inspection for irregularities in the fork material before riding. Keep in mind that this is a manufactured part, probably in China, and all manufacturing processes can go out of control from time to time. We all assume some level of risk getting on a bike. Look at the guy that just got broadsided by some Giant beast while riding through a flat open field during a race...

I am sure Niner will make good on the part, but how can they be held liable for injuries sustained during a dangerous sport???


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## mtnbmike (Aug 4, 2008)

miwuksurfer said:


> Its funny how a photo like this causes so much fearmongering but comments about ripping the bike off the roof rack in a parking garage and the fork surviving with cosmetic scratches get glossed over. Check out the comments to the review on twentynineinches.
> 
> Niner Bikes Carbon Fork: On Test | Twenty Nine Inches


You can't judge a product by one catastrophic failure:nono:.
I ride me niner fork as hard as my suspension fork and never think about component 
failure (while riding). I also don't abuse my equipment, it's a rigged not a DH:thumbsup:.


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## hellocook (Nov 5, 2006)

to me this failure looks a lot like what i have seen when a friend drove with his car into a garage. with the bike on a roof rack ...


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I know a lot of you are saying that you should pick the right equipment for the job, but how many people are really qualified to make that decision?
If you manufacture and put a product out there for mountain biking then you better expect it to see some serious abuse.
I don't know what niner says vis a vis their carbon fork, it's intended use, life span, max rider weight but it is the manufacturer who should be the one telling the customer the appropriate use and lifespan of a product.
Too many are caught up in the weight weenie aspect of mountain biking, but when you make a lighter bike or parts you are either using lighter material or less material and there is certainly a risk in that for everyone involved.


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## FR hokeypokey (Feb 6, 2009)

Like most posts of this nature we have no clue as to what led to the final breakage. I am not doubting the truthfulness of the OP or the injured rider. It may have finally sheared on a relatively smooth section while being casually ridden by a careful rider. But what had happened to it the previous 18 months? That is the question the rider (and the rest of us) needs so ask himself. 

My anecdotal story.- Finishing up a ride with a friend of mine, casually riding down the paved access road at about 15mph, when his aluminum frame suddenly sheared at the BB. Took him a minute to figure out why his bike was suddenly so spongy and his pedal was hitting the ground as he pedaled. No crash, he was lucky as to when and where it happened. But it shows parts do not always break from impacts and at the moment. The damage can be accumulative and seemingly minor before the failure. 

Just a reminder to occasionally clean, inspect and maintain your gear in any sport. Ride safe folks!


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## SlowerThenSnot (Jul 16, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> I am speculating that speculation will solve this crime.


+1


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## Ozrocker13 (Jun 11, 2011)

Wow! I'm waiting to buy one of these, I might keep waiting..


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

teamdicky said:


> I am speculating that speculation will solve this crime.


Authorities speculate that speed may have been a factor. They are also holding gravity and inertia for questioning.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

ebnash said:


> This is one failure in 100's, maybe 1000's of forks sold and really doesn't mean a whole lot in the way of any kind of trend... Nowhere on Niner's site or fork literature does it restrict you from what kind of riding is done on this fork.


Actually, according to this article, Niner restricts rider weight to 240 lb and rotor size to 160mm. 
Niner Carbon Fork: Update | Twenty Nine Inches.

Edit: Woops. The niner website states no rider weight limit, and rotors up to 185mm.

Niner Bikes | The Big Revolution


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

92gli said:


> Authorities speculate that speed may have been a factor. They are also holding gravity and inertia for questioning.


Irrational zealots have already proclaimed the cause and recommended a solution.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Any fork can fail guys. ***** happens..............


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks SLOCAUS, I'm never going to buy a suspension fork ever again!


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

slocaus said:


> Any fork can fail guys. ***** happens..............


Doh! Guess that was an oil fork!


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

FR hokeypokey said:


> My anecdotal story.- ... But it shows parts do not always break from impacts and at the moment. The damage can be accumulative and seemingly minor before the failure.
> 
> Just a reminder to occasionally clean, inspect and maintain your gear in any sport. Ride safe folks!


How 'bout some more speculation and anecdotes whilst we await further information? Hmm? 

Here ya go - broken downtube while casually riding up a _street_ on a frame that was less than a year old and had seen no (serious) crashes.
- Its replacement broke at the BB on a muddy trail ride about 3 months later.
- cracked chainstay during a casual 40 mile gravel grinder in VT (bike was 3 years old and had been rode rigid and put away wet many times - mfr. sent out a FREE and current replacement :rockon
- broken dropout on a 2 y.o. steel frame after much hard riding and days in a row in the Michaux SF, but, at the time, JRA on a smooth path.

While these things are not completely unexpected, I might point out that it was never the fork crown or steerer. On one old steel fork the legs bent outward, like a chopper. This, to me, is a fairly safe failure mode. It gave me some notice that I should ride gingerly back to the car.

Like someone else mentioned, I think I would take a close look at the installation of the crown race.

-F


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

miwuksurfer said:


> Thanks SLOCAUS, I'm never going to buy a suspension fork ever again!


Tried to + rep ya, but the seat clamp failure rep won't let me do it again.


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## frorider (Apr 2, 2005)

FR hokeypokey said:


> Lets review- It is a 18month old lightweight carbon fork being ridden down an apparently rocky and rough trail. It breaks from an unknown impact. I do not see how that is Niners fault in any way. .


Fascinating post. Let's review.

You imply that '18 months' of use is plenty of time -- should we discard a fork after a year or so of use, much like some of us discard a $40 handlebar after 1-2 yrs? Do you believe for even a second that Niner only designed for 18 month use?

You emphasize the 'lightweight carbon' aspect --- again, has Niner communicated to the customer that this is a race-day component that should only be ridden by 150 lb riders on bike paths and pavement?

You do not see how that is possibly Niner's fault that there was a failure? Are you unaware of frame and component recalls in the industry due to mfg'ing or design errors? Do you somehow have enough information and failure analysis data on this particular incident to have determined that there was no mfg'ing defect involved? On the 'intended use' aspect -- have you read this thread? On the face of it, it certainly _seems_ that his riding falls under 'intended use'. For either one of us to make a conclusion any firmer than that is unwarranted at this time.

I am not a 'bring out the lawyers' kind of guy at all, but I know that there is not enough information on this incident for either of us to make a firm conclusion either way about who is 'at fault' here. There is enough information, however, to motivate Niner to be paying very very close attention. There is enough information for some Niner fork owners to want to pay attention as well. 'Paying attention' is not the same as knee-jerk over-reactions...but it's not the same as sticking one's head in the sand either.

Wishing a fast recovery to the injured party.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

slocaus said:


> Any fork can fail guys. ***** happens..............


I remember seeing the funny sequence of photos leading up to that where you can see that the foot bolts are broken or weren't tightened properly or something. His fork didn't actually snap, the lowers just shot off the bottom of the fork when the fork rebounded as he got some air :eekster: Yet another good reminder to check your bike regularly


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## AMCAT (Sep 10, 2009)

This is getting really dumb....


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## Timo (Jan 13, 2004)

slocaus said:


> Any fork can fail guys. ***** happens..............


Same goes for chopsticks.... anyone care to speculate?

This thread needs music.


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## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

Wow. I was just about to buy a suspension fork. I might hold off now a little bit longer after seeing this!

18 months of solid use/JRA seems like there was something else we are missing here.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

*Do this*

If you own a carbon NINER fork, then:

1. take fork off

2. inspect steer tube closely

3. re-install if all good

4. go ride

5. call NINER if you are really concerned..


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## gfs69 (Aug 16, 2007)

Timo said:


> Same goes for chopsticks.... anyone care to speculate?
> 
> This thread needs music.


Broken chopstick punctured eyeball. What else you want to know?


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

AMCAT said:


> This is getting really dumb....


Did you expect any less?

I went to the Niner site and read about their carbon fork. They say no rider weight limit and they go on and on about it's strength and don't mention any life span in regards to the product.

I use to be in the bike shop biz and use to sell Treks. All of them were rigid at the time. I saw a few instances where a customer hit a ditch or huge rock and endoed. In all cases where there was damage the bike bent at the downtube and not at the fork. Those older steel rigid forks took some major abuse.

I am not going to speculate what happened here other than a niner carbon fork broke. Before we take sides I think the fork and bike needs to be inspected by a professional, and that does not include a lawyer!


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## FR hokeypokey (Feb 6, 2009)

Frorider- your reaction is fascinating too. Not sure if you read the entire post or just the parts you disagree with. 

My comments were directed towards realistic expectations of the equipment we choose. In my opinion, considering the intended use of the equipment is essential for rider enjoyment and safety. All too often here in the forums we see posts with completely unrealistic expectations and judgements attached to them. (ex. lightest tire on the market gets cut sidewall on first ride on rocky AZ singletrack = tire is crap)

I agree with you on one count we do not know the details of why this particular fork broke at this particular time. My comments did not blame the OP or injured rider of anything. Just asking them and our community to be honest about their own expectations of this incident. I mentioned 18 mos. because that is a lot of time on any fork, many things could have happened to the fork during that time that contributed to the final failure. Think back on the last year and a half on your own bike. How many times has that rut been a little deeper, the drop off a little higher or the landing a little harder than expected. All the abuse, even normal abuse, accumulates. 

I did refer to the fork as lightweight carbon. This is actually redundant. This point goes back to intended use. A rigid fork (of any material) has different realistic expectations than a 3in suspension or from a 6in suspension fork. How a rider is going to ride the equipment over all the varieties of terrain is also a factor. Choose the equipment that fits your needs. 

As for manufacturer's responsibility. It is to make the best product they can for the consumer. If a recall is needed due to an error or defect, of course they need to be held accountable. The guys at Niner seem pretty responsive and will want to know more about this fork failure. but a couple of responses have been "what is Niner going to do". Honestly, why do they have to do anything? I go back to the 18 month issue. This bike has been safely ridden over an extended time. The fork stood up to that time frame. We have no clue as to the why or how. We can not assume it is Niners "fault " any more than we can blame the rider for clipping his garage or taking a 6ft dropoff. 

Bottom line is be realistic in your expectations. Be careful and ride safe!


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## frorider (Apr 2, 2005)

FR HP -- I read your whole post. 

'lightweight carbon' is not redundant. GT and Santa Cruz have DH carbon frames built for strength and rigidity that happen to be only slightly lighter than comparable alu frames. With any material, the designer is trying to optimize various variables to various degrees.

'all the abuse accumulates'. yep. I'm an engineer for a living, so I can certainly understand that. This is why equipment designers attempt to design for low failure rates under normal range of intended use.

I'm not sure you realized how your first post came across. Your speculation was based on intentionally ignoring the posts from the people who actually rode with the guy and attested to the fork being used and ridden appropriately. Does those posts prove that his use was within the range of intended use? No. But OTOH, it doesn't really provide a reason to speculate in the other direction either. 

Your theme seems to be recommending 'be realistic in your expectations', which is just a statement of the obvious that everyone agrees with already so I'm not sure how it adds anything to the discussion. Especially since the discussion thus far has given no reason to suggest that the injured rider's expectations, or use, were inappropriate.


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## ryanhugh (Dec 27, 2007)

Combatcm said:


> The safest thing to do with a carbon part is install it, take pictures of it and then throw it out.


awesome.


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## Niner Bikes (Dec 9, 2004)

All -

As riders ourselves, our primary concern is for the health of the person involved. Regarding the fork - we are taking this incident very seriously and are currently collecting information.

We will follow up carefully and will not engage in any speculation as to the cause/s. We will comment once we have completed a thorough inspection and have what we feel is correct and helpful information to share.

Please email us directly if you have any concerns - [email protected].

Sincerely,
Chris Sugai
Niner Bikes


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## Fishlips (Jun 15, 2007)

hellocook said:


> to me this failure looks a lot like what i have seen when a friend drove with his car into a garage. with the bike on a roof rack ...


Except that the driver of the car wouldn't be in the hospital, unless he was on the bike on top of the car, hmmmmm.

Anyway, it looks like Niner is not just ignoring this, so good for them.


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## anomaly (Jun 18, 2007)

miwuksurfer said:


> Thanks SLOCAUS, I'm never going to buy a suspension fork ever again!


You better not get a carbon suspension fork!

If you notice the only fork without a failure in this thread is a rigid aluminum fork. I know what we all need to ride from here on out!


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## racerx04 (Nov 27, 2005)

As I said earlier, I've been watching this thread since a few minutes after the OP started it. Since then he's defended his posting and then removed all of his original post except the picture. Others, including myself, have asked for more pictures and additional details. The OP has only responded with quips and vague responses. While I wish a speedy recovery for the rider of this unfortunate incident, I'm still dubious as to the slim facts we've been provided. 

Good to see Niner has a response here, but I really hate to see their reputation tarnished. And now they have to spend resources defending themselves. By all accounts, Niner has created a great product that many, many riders have successfully used without issue. All my research indicates this is an isolated incident and hasn't tainted my interest in purchasing one.

Here's to more good info about this issue from folks in the know.


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## chase1963 (Jul 31, 2007)

Classy move by Niner. All speculation should probably stop now. Let them figure it out.


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

FR hokeypokey said:


> "His lawyer"- This is exactly where I knew this thread was headed when it was first posted. It took longer than I expected, but here we are.
> 
> Why even consider legal action? From the details given, how could it possibly be the manufacturers fault? Lets review- It is a 18month old lightweight carbon fork being ridden down an apparently rocky and rough trail. It breaks from an unknown impact. I do not see how that is Niners fault in any way.
> 
> ...


Is this fork sold as a FRO product and is there a weight limit?


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

You have 2 options with stupidly light XC race parts :-

1. Keep riding until they do fail badly.
2. Replace them if you ride hard every so often, the harder you ride the sooner you need to replace them.

Looks like the steerer tube snapped to me thats why there is all those carbon fibres going around, if it had come unbonded it woulda just falled out pretty much.

Accidents happen, sometimes it's bike fault related and sometimes you just misjudge a bend.


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## AMCAT (Sep 10, 2009)

richwolf said:


> Did you expect any less?
> 
> I went to the Niner site and read about their carbon fork. They say no rider weight limit and they go on and on about it's strength and don't mention any life span in regards to the product.
> 
> ...


Amen !!


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## AMCAT (Sep 10, 2009)

Niner Bikes said:


> All -
> 
> As riders ourselves, our primary concern is for the health of the person involved. Regarding the fork - we are taking this incident very seriously and are currently collecting information.
> 
> ...


You guys are awesome,this thread should now be locked !!! These things happen guys,its the nature of the sport.Lets just hope that the guy is o.k. and we know that ninner will do the right thing !!


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## Spinning Lizard (Nov 27, 2009)

Maybe Niner will recall all of them and give everybody a discount on the 15mm one. That worked out when the Jet frames were snapping every other ride.


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## osty (Jul 30, 2011)

Does it make a diff if the guy on the Niner fork weighs 300#????

Naw, in all seriousness, I know and ride w/ John too and can atest that he is a smooth rider and weighs probably 160-165lbs.

I talked w/ him the other day about the incident and he explaind that he went over a small log and then hit a small drop; I think he most likely rolled that drop, prob no more than 6-10inches and the fork snapped and he had no time to react.

He's doing ok and will be riding in a few months I'm sure :thumbsup:

As far as carbon goes, I personally will never ride any carbon again as I have broken some h-bars and seen too many carbon frames fail and know this fork:eekster:


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## scarkinsmel (Mar 18, 2004)

*Dubious? You seem like a tool of dubious origin.*



hellocook said:


> to me this failure looks a lot like what i have seen when a friend drove with his car into a garage. with the bike on a roof rack ...





racerx04 said:


> As I said earlier, I've been watching this thread since a few minutes after the OP started it. Since then he's defended his posting and then removed all of his original post except the picture. Others, including myself, have asked for more pictures and additional details. The OP has only responded with quips and vague responses. While I wish a speedy recovery for the rider of this unfortunate incident, I'm still dubious as to the slim facts we've been provided.
> 
> Good to see Niner has a response here, but I really hate to see their reputation tarnished. And now they have to spend resources defending themselves. By all accounts, Niner has created a great product that many, many riders have successfully used without issue. All my research indicates this is an isolated incident and hasn't tainted my interest in purchasing one.
> 
> Here's to more good info about this issue from folks in the know.


I will say again, I know the guy. I will say again, I have heard his story. I will say again, it is not for me to tell anyone what I know. I will say again, if you don't know the guy and don't know how he rides or takes care of his stuff, don't judge what he did or didn't do.

The fork was installed at a shop by a qualified mechanic. He takes better care of his bike than most of you do your children. His down tube is fine, his wheel is fine, his fork isn't nor is his face.

Niner's reputation seems sterling in your opinion, so it matters not what is posted. I neither like nor dislike their products. Deejay, Fuzzy, Rebecca and Chris have all met me and have made good impressions on me. I like the riders so bashing the company is not what I mean to do and it interests me not at all. I would like to see them be as successful as they can be.

If you had been "following this thread" as stated you would have seen my earlier post which would have answered some of your questions about the rider. He didn't start this thread, nor has he replied to it. Once he has dealt with Niner, I believe he may feel like posting more about this incident. Until today he hasn't even had a chance to see it because he was in the hospital and seeing specialists to determine how badly he was injured.

You guys need to relax. If the guy is interested in telling you what happened he will when he is done dealing off line with Niner, as he is hopefully now able to do.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

gfs69 said:


> Broken chopstick punctured eyeball. What else you want to know?


+ repped


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## STT GUY (May 19, 2009)

AMCAT said:


> You guys are awesome,this thread should now be locked !!! These things happen guys,its the nature of the sport.Lets just hope that the guy is o.k. and we know that ninner will do the right thing !!


A) The thread should absolutely not be locked. There may be other who have had failures who want to chime in. In all fairness to Niner this could also NOT be the case, I have no facts to back up this statement.

B) Why should Niner be immune from the same stuff every e-retailer goes through any time someones XXXXX is shipped a day or two late or brand XXX when a frame breaks? Come on... "_Ready...*FIRE*...Aim_" is part of the interwebs and Niner's management are big boys and girls and can handle this situation. Gatta take the good with the bad.


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## SlowerThenSnot (Jul 16, 2004)

STT GUY said:


> A) The thread should absolutely not be locked. There may be other who have had failures who want to chime in. In all fairness to Niner this could also NOT be the case, I have no facts to back up this statement.
> 
> B) Why should Niner be immune from the same stuff every e-retailer goes through any time someones XXXXX is shipped a day or two late or brand XXX when a frame breaks? Come on... "_Ready...*FIRE*...Aim_" is part of the interwebs and Niner's management are big boys and girls and can handle this situation. Gatta take the good with the bad.


Coherent thought doesn't belong on the 29er board :madman:


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## string_wise (Feb 24, 2010)

Ryan G. said:


> He wasn't recently riding in South Africa was he?
> 
> Quick healing vibes to your buddy!


Well played, +1 rep :thumbsup:

Hope the injured rider heals up quick and gets back on the trail with confidence this will never happen again.


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

chase1963 said:


> Classy move by Niner. All speculation should probably stop now. Let them figure it out.


exactly. I don't know why MTBR users think they can dissect a failure like a FAA investigator. I know a picture is worth a thousand words but you need 20 thousand words to describe a failure like this.


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## Professed (Sep 25, 2007)

So as nobody panics, I have hit a concrete carpark roof with my Niner Carbon fork about a year ago when it was about 6 months old.

The bike (SIR) and the attached Thule racks were torn off the roof of the car.

The Niner fork had some superficial surface damage (which i have not touched up and since i am not at home i cant post a pic)

No issues. Still perfect.

This looks to be a one off as the first post to date of a failure. 

relax !

ps: if you dont believe me pm me and i will send a pic when i get round to it.


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## aDeception (Oct 19, 2011)

*You wanted more photo's, you got them*

Don't be so hasty and jump to conclusions about this incident being a "parking garage accident." As requested, here are some more photos about the fork break. Honestly, negativity on this thread isn't welcome. Why would you bash the rider when you don't even know how he/she rides? If you want to troll on a forum or thread, go elsewhere. I'm more than certain if this happened to any of you; you'd feel the same way my dad does about this incident. Take a walk in someone else's shoes for once in your life. Don't be so naive and inconsiderate..


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Is the white stuff the plastic bag from the bladder used when they pressure mold the thing? I always find it interesting what different manufacturers use to lay up the fibers around. The carbon linkage on one of my duallies is apparently moulded around a couple sheets of cardboard going from what a broken one looked like inside.


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## Professed (Sep 25, 2007)

But the Niner forks are not snapping every other ride... big difference.

One item with a possible lay up defect and the forums go wild.

this is becoming ridiculous !


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## neveride (Feb 7, 2004)

richwolf said:


> Did you expect any less?
> 
> I use to be in the bike shop biz and use to sell Treks. All of them were rigid at the time. I saw a few instances where a customer hit a ditch or huge rock and endoed. In all cases where there was damage the bike bent at the downtube and not at the fork. Those older steel rigid forks took some major abuse.
> 
> !


The forks Trek used to run back before the days of suspension (and even well after suspension forks were coming stock on bikes) were boat anchors. I probably have one or two floating around my basement still. I haven't gotten rid of them yet because they are almost too heavy to carry out to the curb.


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## dontheclysdale (Mar 12, 2008)

Eriksen frame, ti bars and stem, CK headset, maybe the carbon felt out of place and wanted out -- literally? It was definitely a nice rig and one that was obviously customized to its owners desires. A speedy recovery to the rider who went down.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2011)

aDeception said:


> Don't be so hasty and jump to conclusions about this incident being a "parking garage accident." ... Honestly, negativity on this thread isn't welcome. Why would you bash the rider when you don't even know how he/she rides? If you want to troll on a forum or thread, go elsewhere. I'm more than certain if this happened to any of you; you'd feel the same way my dad does about this incident. Take a walk in someone else's shoes for once in your life. Don't be so naive and inconsiderate..


Isn't that what this thread is though? It's only a matter of who or what organization or what material is getting bashed. Negativity is why this thread got created, it's clearly welcome.


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## drumsfield (Oct 19, 2011)

craigsj said:


> Isn't that what this thread is though? It's only a matter of who or what organization or what material is getting bashed. Negativity is why this thread got created, it's clearly welcome.


As a matter of who's opinion? Yours?


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

drumsfield said:


> As a matter of who's opinion? Yours?


It's a matter of record (except that the OP keeps editing his OP).


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

drumsfield said:


> As a matter of who's opinion? Yours?


Sock puppet?


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## MyMilkExpired (Nov 1, 2010)

CupOfJava said:


> *Edit since it seems some people have a problem with the way I posted the original thread.*
> 
> These are the pictures:


Interesting, can anyone comment on what the clear plastic is in this picture?


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

To the OP: Thanks for posting the thread. Don't feel a compunction to answer any of the "homer's" questions, especially from the ones who claim that 18 months is too long to use a product with a five year warranty or those who claim that the product was overstressed when Niner doesn't put any XC limitations on it. I wrote Chris to determine how isolated this incident is since I'm concerned about my fork now.


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## racerx04 (Nov 27, 2005)

fos'l said:


> To the OP: Thanks for posting the thread. Don't feel a compunction to answer any of the "homer's" questions, especially from the ones who claim that 18 months is too long to use a product with a five year warranty or those who claim that the product was overstressed when Niner doesn't put any XC limitations on it. I wrote Chris to determine how isolated this incident is since I'm concerned about my fork now.


Thanks for contacting Chris, please post his response.


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## crdean1 (Oct 19, 2011)

Good point above, however, it should hold up as advertised, no?


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

fos'l said:


> Don't feel a compunction to answer any of the "homer's" questions, especially from the ones who claim that 18 months is too long to use a product with a five year warranty or those who claim that the product was overstressed when Niner doesn't put any XC limitations on it.


The fact that Niner didn't put any XC limitations on the product does not mean that people can use it in any manner they want. Same goes for the rest of the industry - there's an inherent common sense required by the consumer, even if the package doesn't list it.

That's not saying that the injured rider was at fault - everyone here would agree that stuff can unexpectedly fail, and that's a risk we are all willing to take every time we get on our bikes.


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## hugerooster (Jul 7, 2006)

*Chiming in*



scarkinsmel said:


> I will say again, I know the guy. I will say again, I have heard his story. I will say again, it is not for me to tell anyone what I know. I will say again, if you don't know the guy and don't know how he rides or takes care of his stuff, don't judge what he did or didn't do.
> 
> The fork was installed at a shop by a qualified mechanic. He takes better care of his bike than most of you do your children. His down tube is fine, his wheel is fine, his fork isn't nor is his face.
> 
> ...


I second all of the above....I know the guy and can attest to everything mentioned by others.

Furthermore, I'm not sure I saw anyone else mention the marketing video when this fork came out... Anyone else remember seeing this? I'm pretty sure there was a video of a dude torturing one of these forks with a hammer....showing how strong they were, and how much abuse they could take. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here....cause if I'm remembering correctly....then all of the comments about carbon forks not being intended for xyz riding styles are a bit off-base.


----------



## hugerooster (Jul 7, 2006)

*niner fork vid*



crdean1 said:


> Good point above, however, it should hold up as advertised, no?


ok, found the video....they certainly marketed it as being durable. The hammering doesn't really demonstrate how durable the crown would be per se, but nonetheless, this thing isn't intended to be limited to fire-road use. This is clearly a serious xc fork.

Niner Bikes Fork Hammering - YouTube


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

hugerooster said:


> ok, found the video....they certainly marketed it as being durable. The hammering doesn't really demonstrate how durable the crown would be per se, but nonetheless, this thing isn't intended to be limited to fire-road use. This is clearly a serious xc fork.
> 
> Niner Bikes Fork Hammering - YouTube


Yeh, I think most of us have seen that video. Like you said, it does not highlight the strength of the steer tube. It would be odd to see him take the hammer to the steer tube though

This is unfortunate for the rider and NINER. After what happened with the Jet 9 recall, I can say with confidence that NINER has done everything in their power to avoid another recall episode. That probably took years off of Chis Sugai's life Both sides are losers in this right now. Your buddy sounds like a good guy and NINER has a pretty good reputation overall..

The bottom line is this. That fork is intended to be raced on (XC). Forks take massive abuse during races. NINER would even agree with both statements.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

I've seen normal forks fail at the same place let alone carbon steerer forks, it's built down stupidly light yet tough enough for 99.9% of the time with gentle riding.

Any sensible person, wouldn't ride rock gardens at speed with a fork this light, 18months of doing that has done damage slowly, it about being sensible with your equipment.


Not Niners fault, if you want a fork for abuse get a real suspension fork or a stronger much heavier steel fork, save this kinda kit for forest track and smooth flowing stuff.

Yes it's for serious XC, but I fear he's moving beyond XC into freeride territory.


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## drumsfield (Oct 19, 2011)

racerx04 said:


> Thanks for contacting Chris, please post his response.


You're coming off as a real tool. Your comments aren't helping anyone. Maybe it's time for you to move along?


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## wedge (Jun 24, 2006)

neveride said:


> *boat anchors*. I probably have one or two *floating *around my basement still.


Now what's the intended use of a _floating boat anchor_?!?
:???:


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## racerx04 (Nov 27, 2005)

drumsfield said:


> You're coming off as a real tool. Your comments aren't helping anyone. Maybe it's time for you to move along?


Wow, name calling. Now this thread has everything the internet offers.:thumbsup:


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## Crockpot2001 (Nov 2, 2004)

gfs69 said:


> Broken chopstick punctured eyeball. What else you want to know?


They are not Korean Chopsticks. Those are made of Stainless steel so you can see tarnishing from some poisons. Use the right tool for the job and maintain it.


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## hugerooster (Jul 7, 2006)

Turveyd said:


> I've seen normal forks fail at the same place let alone carbon steerer forks, it's built down stupidly light yet tough enough for 99.9% of the time with gentle riding.
> 
> Any sensible person, wouldn't ride rock gardens at speed with a fork this light, 18months of doing that has done damage slowly, it about being sensible with your equipment.
> 
> ...


c'mon man, how many people need to jump in here to say that A) the dude is a super smooth xc rider that isn't into "free-riding" (since when do rock gardens constitute FR? Ever ride anywhere here on the east coast?) and B) the guy takes amazing care of his equipment. I ride with the dude on a regular basis and can tell you that he's not taking drops, or doing any other craziness outside of the xc domain.

To suggest that this happened because he wasn't being "sensible" is pretty harsh. If Niner doesn't intend for people riding their XC racing forks in rock gardens, then they shouldn't ship them to the east coast. Was a it a freak accident? Most likely it was.


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## mo0se (Jul 31, 2006)

Inherent Risk... applies to everything, replace and ride when you heal. It's probably due to plum smuggling...yep that's what casued this.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Wow, this is turning into another classic MTBR.com 29er train wreck!

I can't believe how people are saying that you should ride gently with a XC race fork and not go through rock gardens and that at 18 months it should be replaced. I know very good XC racers and their speed on the downhills which include rock gardens, ruts, etc, scares me.

Trek recently had a rash of broken carbon fiber steerer tubes on their Trek Madone road bikes, and they blamed the customer for using an unapproved stem.

The most critical part of a bike in my opinion is the front end. From handlebars, to stems to steerer tubes to forks, to rims and tires. You don't want rims crumpling, tires blowing or items breaking or snapping.

If I made bikes or parts I would avoid making forks, stems or bars. Too much potential for liability and then when you try to push the envelope to make thinks tricker and lighter then you are just asking for trouble.


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## drumsfield (Oct 19, 2011)

racerx04 said:


> Wow, name calling. Now this thread has everything the internet offers.:thumbsup:


I noticed it took you a couple of edits to come up with that one. Finding it hard having to think?


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

drumsfield said:


> I noticed it took you a couple of edits to come up with that one. Finding it hard having to think?


I see that you have 3 total posts and created an account this month. I have read 2 out of your 3 posts.

You are off to a solid start imo...


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## racerx04 (Nov 27, 2005)

rydbyk said:


> I see that you have 3 total posts and created an account this month. I have read 2 out of your 3 posts.
> 
> You are off to a solid start imo...


Yesterday to be exact...

edit: I edited this...


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## gfs69 (Aug 16, 2007)

I hope the rider heals quick, and is back riding soon. These things always turn into speculation and name calling at some point. I am confident that Niner will do the right thing regarding this, what ever that may be. 

Oh, and to the person that neg rep'd me, no reason to call me a ****ing idiot, just trying to lighten the place up a bit. Maybe develop a sense of humor, or start wearing goggles when you eat Chinese food. :thumbsup:


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Did you get neg repped for this?



gfs69 said:


> Broken chopstick punctured eyeball. What else you want to know?


Because I thought it was frickin hilarious! It would be pretty easy to develop a list of suspects who might have done that


----------



## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

I think there is a reason that Rock Shox and others only do carbon steerers in a tapered variety. And that is on suspension forks where possibility of a load spike is significantly lower.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

MyMilkExpired said:


> Interesting, can anyone comment on what the clear plastic is in this picture?


Air bladder used during layup?


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

FR hokeypokey said:


> I do not see how that is Niners fault in any way.


I do not see how it can be proven to be Niners fault. But I could see how whoever was laying it up and cooking it in Asia had a brain fart. We do not know, and we may never know - but my personal conclusion is that I would rather get a tapered steerer if I ever get a carbon one.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

moved


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Not quite the hammer video, but....

*"Niner's carbon fork undergoes a CEN-standard fork fatigue test. To pass CEN standards the fork must withstand 650 newtons of push/pull for 100,000 test cycles. The Niner fork goes far beyond this standard - exceeding 500,000 cycles on all tests."*


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

teamdicky said:


> Not quite the hammer video, but....
> 
> *"Niner's carbon fork undergoes a CEN-standard fork fatigue test. To pass CEN standards the fork must withstand 650 newtons of push/pull for 100,000 test cycles. The Niner fork goes far beyond this standard - exceeding 500,000 cycles on all tests."*


650N is about 65kg, right? Am I wrong to think that the average fork experiences forces much greater than that while riding rough terrain?

Cool video, though.


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## osty (Jul 30, 2011)

DeeEight said:


> Is the white stuff the plastic bag from the bladder used when they pressure mold the thing? I always find it interesting what different manufacturers use to lay up the fibers around. The carbon linkage on one of my duallies is apparently moulded around a couple sheets of cardboard going from what a broken one looked like inside.


I heard that's how they smuggle in the heroin from Asia


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> Not quite the hammer video, but....
> 
> *"Niner's carbon fork undergoes a CEN-standard fork fatigue test. To pass CEN standards the fork must withstand 650 newtons of push/pull for 100,000 test cycles. The Niner fork goes far beyond this standard - exceeding 500,000 cycles on all tests."*


Indeed. Carbon composites are stupid strong. Especially when loaded as designed in a controlled environment.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> 650N is about 65kg, right? Am I wrong to think that the average fork experiences forces much greater than that while riding rough terrain?
> 
> Cool video, though.


"Newton: The amount of net force required to accelerate a mass of one kilogram at a rate of one meter per second squared."

Dunno, but when I see how much that fork is flexing with each cycle, I have to say I've never been able get my fork to flex that much during normal use.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

jtmartino said:


> 650N is about 65kg, right? Am I wrong to think that the average fork experiences forces much greater than that while riding rough terrain?
> 
> Cool video, though.


Yep, just read up on it..

Newton (unit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So yeah same as putting a 65kg ish weight on it and repeating 500,000 times.

Failing to do the maths of what a impact at 25mph into a rock creates peak force wise, I'd bet on many times that, although the flex would suggest thats a reasonible flex.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

jtmartino said:


> 650N is about 65kg, right? Am I wrong to think that the average fork experiences forces much greater than that while riding rough terrain?


Maybe, but for any normal impact only a portion of the force is acting in that direction. You'd have to hit something at axle height in order for the full force to be pushing only in that direction.


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

boomn said:


> Maybe, but for any normal impact only a portion of the force is acting in that direction. You'd have to hit something at axle height in order for the full force to be pushing only in that direction.


Good point. You have a lot of energy absorption into the tire/wheel also, as well as force deflection because impacts aren't straight-on at axle level, as you stated.

Just interesting discussion. I'm sure Niner did their homework when building their fork.


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## Turveyd (Sep 30, 2007)

boomn said:


> Maybe, but for any normal impact only a portion of the force is acting in that direction. You'd have to hit something at axle height in order for the full force to be pushing only in that direction.


A 100kg person crashing into a tree head on at 25mph would pull about 20g so about 2100Nm, but your tire would absorb some, your wheel crumbling some more and your frame some more, then you'd fly forward into the tree which would lessen the effect then you likely wouldn't care to much for some time about your forks.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

jtmartino said:


> 650N is about 65kg, right? Am I wrong to think that the average fork experiences forces much greater than that while riding rough terrain?
> 
> Cool video, though.


Actually 66kg and some change... 1 kilogram is equal to 9.80665002864 N. So divide the 650 by that long decimal place number and you get the exact answer if you want it.


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## mr_chrome (Jan 17, 2005)

Really feel a need to keep an eye on my CF fork now..........


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

My last physics class was almost two decades ago, but aren't you guys converting apples to bacon?

A newton being a measurement of force, a kilogram a measurement of weight.

One newton is equal to 0.101 971 621 3 kilogram-force.

One newton is the *amount of net force required to accelerate a mass of one kilogram at a rate of one meter per second squared*.

So...

the CEN standard would be 650 kilograms accelerated at a rate of one meter per second squared.

Am I wrong here? I'm asking seriously.

I'm not taking the fork off my bike either way. Just trying to grasp the concept.

Although if more speculation comes up, I may have to consider a solid steel fork for my next bike.


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## Enoch (Jun 12, 2004)

take a look at this Pinnarello videos that come up when clicking on Dickys link.

PINARELLO LAB testing frame an fork - Simulation Crash Bike - YouTube

Impressive and scary at the same time. It kinda shows how a fork can survive a few hard licks but only so many times


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## ShoMyOFace (Oct 13, 2005)

Isn't this forum sponsored by Niner? No comments from a representative yet that I can tell - It certainly has me re-thinking whether I should buy one or not.


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Enoch said:


> take a look at this Pinnarello videos that come up when clicking on Dickys link.
> Impressive and scary at the same time. It kinda shows how a fork can survive a few hard licks but only so many times


Not as scientific or impressive as this (and no ABBA):

KAPUTT!!


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## jtmartino (Jul 31, 2008)

teamdicky said:


> My last physics class was almost two decades ago, but aren't you guys converting apples to bacon?


Gravity makes people accelerate constantly and exert force upon the ground. It's an easy way to visualize what 650N would look like standing in front of you .


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

teamdicky said:


> My last physics class was almost two decades ago, but aren't you guys converting apples to bacon?


It is quite common to use the force of gravity at sea level exerted on a 1 kg of mass as a unit of force.



teamdicky said:


> the CEN standard would be 650 kilograms accelerated at a rate of one meter per second squared.


Or holding 66kg near Earth surface completely still.


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## trailof (Mar 18, 2010)

ShoMyOFace said:


> Isn't this forum sponsored by Niner? No comments from a representative yet that I can tell - It certainly has me re-thinking whether I should buy one or not.


Look at post 114


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

teamdicky said:


> My last physics class was almost two decades ago, but aren't you guys converting apples to bacon?
> 
> A newton being a measurement of force, a kilogram a measurement of weight.
> 
> ...


newton is a force(weight) kilo is a mass. weight = mass x gravity therefore newton = kilo x 9.8(acc of gravity) so kilo = newton/9.8 and kilo = 650/9.8 = 66kg


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

peabody said:


> newton is a force(weight) kilo is a mass. weight = mass x gravity therefore newton = kilo x 9.8(acc of gravity) so kilo = newton/9.8 and kilo = 650/9.8 = 66kg


That's about right (except the problem with comparing mass with force). The easiest thing is just to convert Newtons to pounds force, and it is even easier if you skip the math and use an on line converter:

650 Newtons = 146 Pounds force (Lbf)

N to LBF Conversion Calculator - Tinius Olsen


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Either way, I will enjoy my bacon wrapped apple now.


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## motorbacon (Jun 17, 2010)

So much retarded speculation. Good god.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

OK...you math types can stop geeking out now


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

jtmartino said:


> 650N is about 65kg, right? Am I wrong to think that the average fork experiences forces much greater than that while riding rough terrain?
> 
> Cool video, though.


Remember that there are different failure modes for a material. The test above measures the forks resistance to fatigue failure. Fatigue failure occurs when a material is subjected to cyclic loading at forces much less than its tensile strength. that is exactly what happens with forks and handlebars etc. They flex thousands of times due to small forces. Even though the forces are small, eventually the material fails due to changes in its structure caused by the flexing.

Carbon does exceptionally well in that type of test, and can easily beat aluminum or steel.

Another important property of the fork would be the max force it could handle before yielding. Carbon does well in this area as well, but obviously manufacturing process and defects and variation can effect the material, maybe more than with other materials.

Overall, carbon performs well when compared to other frame and fork materials. If it didn't no one would use it.

Failures of carbon parts and frames get more attention. If the fork was steel or aluminum, people would just accept that it happens sometimes, and move on.


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## gfs69 (Aug 16, 2007)

smilinsteve said:


> Did you get neg repped for this?
> 
> Because I thought it was frickin hilarious! It would be pretty easy to develop a list of suspects who might have done that


Yeah, that's OK, at least a few people got it


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

smilinsteve said:


> Did you get neg repped for this?
> 
> Because I thought it was frickin hilarious! It would be pretty easy to develop a list of suspects who might have done that


Add me to victim list, i +repped you for the witty quit, the same clown negged me with "****ing idiot"


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2011)

ozzybmx said:


> Add me to victim list, i +repped you for the witty quit, the same clown negged me with "****ing idiot"


I got it too. Worthless input as it always is.

Honestly, I don't know why anyone pays attention to that. All you've got is buddies pumping each other up and a-holes posting stuff they don't have the nerve to say in public. It's never used in a constructive manner. Why bother even looking?


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

craigsj said:


> I got it too. Worthless input as it always is.
> 
> Honestly, I don't know why anyone pays attention to that. All you've got is buddies pumping each other up and a-holes posting stuff they don't have the nerve to say in public. It's never used in a constructive manner. Why bother even looking?


Where can one find the rules regarding "rep power?"

I need a lot of validation to get through the day.


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## rob1208lv (Sep 8, 2007)

hummmm, I think I'll follow this thread and wait for the Injured rider and Niner to report back before I make any judgement


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

You don't need REP Dicky, remember you get paid for every post  


teamdicky said:


> Where can one find the rules regarding "rep power?"
> 
> I need a lot of validation to get through the day.


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## Andy Pancroft (Aug 3, 2011)

Well, it's "Catastrophic" in the sense that he's out of pocket for a replacement!!

Get a green one, get a green one!!!


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## frorider (Apr 2, 2005)

:facepalm: 

Turveyd, your statement about 'freeride' and 'rock gardens' is so absurd and clueless that even the guys at Niner slapped their foreheads when they read it. 

As for CEN testing--it's actually introduced a lot of rigor in testing and designing of bikes, from what I hear in the industry. Eg a frame that was on the market for years with no front-impact failures still had to be strengthened to pass CEN. I have no doubt that the Niner design compares quite well to many forks in this type of test. 

Of course, there's always a chance that this particular fork, or the mfg batch, had a defect of some type. Niner is a company of riders--I'm sure they are very serious about figuring out what happened here. Give them time to do so.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

rob1208lv said:


> hummmm, I think I'll follow this thread and wait for the Injured rider and Niner to report back before I make any judgement


Now why on earth would you want to do that!? It totally makes sense. Lame.


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## Enel (Mar 23, 2004)

frorider said:


> :facepalm:
> 
> Turveyd, your statement about 'freeride' and 'rock gardens' is so absurd and clueless that even the guys at Niner slapped their foreheads when they read it.
> 
> ...


Stop making so much sense.

I favor the above bolded explanation rather than rider error or design flaw.


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## Timo (Jan 13, 2004)

gfs69 said:


> Yeah, that's OK, at least a few people got it


Yeah I got a neg rep too for posting the chopsticks picture. Funny thing though, I got a lot more positive rep for the picture than from the person who gave the neg rep.


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## cannonballtrail (Sep 14, 2004)

I had a SID world cup carbon tube develop cracks in the same area because of a tiny bit of play in my headset that went unnoticed for several rides. A friend of mine overtightened his headset and had tiny cracks on the top of his carbon steer tube.

Installation means everything. Just because a shop "professionally" install the fork means absolutely nothing. Maybe the mechanic was in a rush to get home or slacking off that day. Was the race absolutely flush against the flange? Did he hammer the race on straight? Was the fork damaged during the hammering? KCNC and a few other companies make races that just slide on. Maybe these designs would be better for carbon tubes?

There are so many questions here besides the terrain and the Niner Fork that need answers. A loose headset could have definitely caused this failure.


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## squareback (Sep 19, 2011)

MyMilkExpired said:


> The real issue with strength and longevity is the union between the steerer and the crown.


The weak link in almost every structure is a transition.

Fork transitions in general creep me out ever since my friend broke his Ashtabula forks and knocked out his front teeth 35 years ago.

I will never forget the look on his face with blood pouring out.


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## va12bike (Feb 28, 2011)

*Was there*

Hey -

Got a call about this thread. I don't post here much, so was unaware anyone had posted the pictures. Few things, since I was there when this occurred:

1) The hurt fellow is the smoothest and most talented rider I have ever ridden behind. He doesn't do FR stuff or take many risks. He's past that "age stage" in life and has a wife and 3 kids, so it's "safe" XC riding. But seriously, the skills are beyond reproach.

2) He rode over a root on a small not that steep DH section, total drop of maybe 10-16 inches to soft dirt. The type of thing you roll on a 29er. The type of thing XC riders do all the time. Not even all mountain level terrain. He runs 2.4 tires at around 22-25 PSI tubeless on Stans rims, so there is some cushion from the tire.

3) The fork snapped as you see in the pictures after, I guess, around 16 months of normal usage. This is the first generation of the fork. We were all impressed when he showed up at a ride with it. In fact, many of us have since bought one or more. I have two.

4) It appeared to me in my examination of the fork at the site of the accident that it had sheared at the stress point. It appears that there are reinforcement tubes in the steerer, that do NOT extend into the legs OR past the stress point where the legs join the steerer. So, the result is the that the legs are strong, and the steerer is strong, but the joint between the two is the weakest spot.

So, to sum up, I own 3 Niners (RIP, SIR and AIR) and I LOVE them. They are the best bike's I have ever ridden. I also have TWO of the second generation of this fork UNCUT that I was about to put on my bikes (SIR and AIR). At this point, I am NOT going to put them on, and I am NOT going to sell them. I will not put them on because I DO NOT want to have an accident. I will not sell them because I do not think the fork is safe until there is a full explanation of why this fork failed in the manner that it did.

My advice to those running the fork is that they be very careful and even consider the steel fork until Niner or other experts can determine why this fork failed. I say that because of the severity of the injuries suffered and the fact that this was a first generation fork purchased very close to when they were first released, so hence, it is older than many of the Niner forks you may be riding.

I think we all know from experience that there is a set of risks involved in mountain biking that are somewhat unique to it. I also believe that Niner strives to put out the best 29er products on the market. It's very frustrating to me personally to see a rider that I have NEVER seen crash hurt due to an equipment failure. But, the key thing for me is to assure that no one else suffers the same misfortune for the same reason.


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## va12bike (Feb 28, 2011)

racerx04 said:


> As I said earlier, I've been watching this thread since a few minutes after the OP started it. Since then he's defended his posting and then removed all of his original post except the picture. Others, including myself, have asked for more pictures and additional details. The OP has only responded with quips and vague responses. While I wish a speedy recovery for the rider of this unfortunate incident, I'm still dubious as to the slim facts we've been provided.
> 
> Good to see Niner has a response here, but I really hate to see their reputation tarnished. And now they have to spend resources defending themselves. By all accounts, Niner has created a great product that many, many riders have successfully used without issue. All my research indicates this is an isolated incident and hasn't tainted my interest in purchasing one.
> 
> Here's to more good info about this issue from folks in the know.


I don't know who the OP was. They were not there when it happened. They probably posted to make sure the issue got out there, since the rider was not able to post. It's good to get the issue out there, and you are correct that this will take sometime to figure out. I also think your advice is pretty good about inspecting the fork and just being aware. I would just add that if you have already had an accident or two, you might just want to err on the side of caution. Sure, it's over a pound lighter than the steel fork, but the steel fork is nice too.


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## Spinning Lizard (Nov 27, 2009)

I would think, to an experienced rider, that they would notice a loose headset on a rigid bike real quick. IMO


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## Hobkins (Oct 7, 2011)

So crazy


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## va12bike (Feb 28, 2011)

Nothing was loose on that beauty of a bike and never is.


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## PatrickK (Apr 26, 2007)

I feel obliged to chip in. I have two Niner 29 carbon forks, one Ritchey carbon Pro 29 and one Trigon 26 carbon. Please refer to the attached pictures. When I got one of my Niner forks I was really upset at the not so aesthetically pleasing part of it. It had some bubbles/bulging. Carbon weaves seems to be intact. I addressed the issue with Niner and they told me to send it back. However I declined since I would have to wait for a new fork few weeks. Excellent customer service from Niner, btw. Should I contactthem again?


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

When they make carbon forks that you can hammer in a star fangled nut with impunity, cut it with any old hacksaw or tubing cutter, doesn't have to be reinforced with metal parts, don't need to be ridden "gently" or replaced at yearly intervals, don't need "special" stems, can be installed safely by most ham fisted mechanics without torque wrenches and don't cost an arm and a leg then I will be all over them!


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Thanks for the info (and a reasonable post). :thumbsup:


va12bike said:


> 4) It appeared to me in my examination of the fork at the site of the accident that it had sheared at the stress point. It appears that there are reinforcement tubes in the steerer, that do NOT extend into the legs OR past the stress point where the legs join the steerer. So, the result is the that the legs are strong, and the steerer is strong, but the joint between the two is the weakest spot.


I think it's pretty obvious that those tubes extend from the steerer into the fork legs.


va12bike said:


> At this point, I am NOT going to put them on, and I am NOT going to sell them. I will not put them on because I DO NOT want to have an accident. I will not sell them because I do not think the fork is safe until there is a full explanation of why this fork failed in the manner that it did.
> 
> My advice to those running the fork is that they be very careful and even consider the steel fork until Niner or other experts can determine why this fork failed. I say that because of the severity of the injuries suffered and the fact that this was a first generation fork purchased very close to when they were first released, so hence, it is older than many of the Niner forks you may be riding.


What do you mean by "first generation?"
Believe it or not, more often than not it is impossible to hone in on an exact explanation for a structural failure in a completely uncontrolled environment. That's often the case in *controlled* environments. I think your reaction is a bit overboard, but I understand it, given how close to home this must have hit. Whether or not Niner is able to conclusively determine the cause of the failure, the fact is that most of the forks are not failing, so a conclusion that there is an underlying issue and that all Niner forks are unsafe is unfounded.
At some point or another, every mountain bike part ever made has failed... most often for reasons unexplained. I'm not trying to minimize the failure or the affect it had on you, just painting some bigger picture context.


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

This accident raises an eyebrow because I was led to believe that "carbon has infinite fatigue life" so long as the layup/clear coat is intact and the fibers are all connected.


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## dereknz (May 3, 2011)

cannonballtrail said:


> I had a SID world cup carbon tube develop cracks in the same area because of a tiny bit of play in my headset that went unnoticed for several rides. A friend of mine overtightened his headset and had tiny cracks on the top of his carbon steer tube.
> 
> Installation means everything. Just because a shop "professionally" install the fork means absolutely nothing. Maybe the mechanic was in a rush to get home or slacking off that day. Was the race absolutely flush against the flange? Did he hammer the race on straight? Was the fork damaged during the hammering? KCNC and a few other companies make races that just slide on. Maybe these designs would be better for carbon tubes?
> 
> There are so many questions here besides the terrain and the Niner Fork that need answers. A loose headset could have definitely caused this failure.


Thanks for pointing this out. I have just finished my 1st build two days ago and using a rigid carbon fork. After just over 3 hours riding yesterday noticed the slight play had developed in the headset and needed nipping up. One thing I now know to to keep an eye on.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

jtmartino said:


> 650N is about 65kg, right? Am I wrong to think that the average fork experiences forces much greater than that while riding rough terrain?
> 
> Cool video, though.


This is a long winded thread but this is a good point. So 65kg for 100,000 cycles as a test is applicable for "just riding along" on the street I would think. I wouldn't be surprised if the average 200 lb guy riding down hill on a rocky trail at speed transfers way more force to the fork than 65kg. Plus how many cycles happen in a normal 2 hour ride? It seems that all that adds up to...they need to update their testing procedures. I don't know how to figure it out but I'll bet the force at a high stress point like the top of the crown is really high and each ride clicks off many thousands of cycles. Maybe the physics geeks can figure out some actual stress figures for us.

I'm generally pro advancement of carbon being used for almost every piece of a bike and personally have never had anything fail except a first generation carbon road post back in the 80s on a rigid mountain bike with a lead butt riding it, not me. I never had any problems with it, and when it failed it cracked and bent but didn't snap off. I've ridden carbon bars, posts, stems, a frame and a suspension fork, and ride hard, and nothing else have ever failed.

Judging by that failed steel fork pics, with the rust, it had partially failed (significantly) prior to the final blow and the rider was not in touch with his bike enough to notice (it had to be making some creaking noises prior) maybe this carbon fork showed some sign of eminent failure too but the rider didn't notice or pay attention. I'm not trying to be a hard ass but it happens all the time. Many guys just ride and don't think about their equipment until it doesn't work.

But then maybe Niner needs to make their forks a little stronger and a little heavier. Maybe the tapered steerer is a lot better. I wish they would comment on this thread. (edit: I guess they did somewhere according to a post. I only read the first 3 pages of the thread. Have to look for that)

I don't really care much about anything without full suspension but if I was going to build up a really light weight rigid bike it would probably have this fork because up until now I have only heard good things about it. I wouldn't want to ride as if my fork could break at any moment and certainly wouldn't want to do the face plant. I feel a bike should be strong enough to take anything your body can handle short of crashing. If you can ride it the bike should make it, or it's under-built for the intended purpose. RedBull style off cliff riding not included.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2011)

illnacord said:


> This accident raises an eyebrow because I was led to believe that "carbon has infinite fatigue life" so long as the layup/clear coat is intact and the fibers are all connected.


You've fallen for it. What evidence is there that this is related to fatigue?


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

Found the Niner post. Hopefully they will get back to this thread with some theories about the failure. 

I wish the op had posted some shots of the rest of the fork rather than multiples of basically the same shot. Want to see the other separation points. 

I wonder how the rider went down and the bottom of the headtube/headset never hit the ground? Maybe the bike deflected to the side as he flew over the bars, of something like that.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

modifier said:


> This is a long winded thread but this is a good point. So 65kg for 100,000 cycles as a test is applicable for "just riding along" on the street I would think. I wouldn't be surprised if the average 200 lb guy riding down hill on a rocky trail at speed transfers way more force to the fork than 65kg.


66kg (650N for you purists) applied in this direction will cause about 0.7g acceleration. Given that you center of mass is at about 45deg angle from the front contact patch (just guessing, but that seems feasible), that would be the going over the bars point for a 100kg rider. (just triangulating forces - decelerating you center of mass at 0.7g should cause you to rotate around the front contact patch) So this value seems pretty reasonable.

That does not mean that an instantaneous shock load will not be higher, but tires should provide a sufficient cushion.


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## 29buzz (Nov 5, 2004)

Not trying to throw gas on a fire or get flamed...but I have seen even aluminum steerers almost cut by old school King headsets-I.E the ones before they used the Canecreek developed compression system-they were always a bit 'clunky' -it took diligence to keep the HS snug. The longer travel forks had more issues. A 29er is a lot more leverage on the lower headset cup/race area. Just some thoughts-please no flames-all these HS issues can be backed up,but it is not like there were huge trouble-but there were issues.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Axe said:


> 66kg (650N for you purists) applied in this direction will cause about 0.7g acceleration. Given that you center of mass is at about 45deg angle from the front contact patch (just guessing, but that seems feasible), that would be the going over the bars point for a 100kg rider. (just triangulating forces - decelerating you center of mass at 0.7g should cause you to rotate around the front contact patch) So this value seems pretty reasonable.
> 
> That does not mean that an instantaneous shock load will not be higher, but tires should provide a sufficient cushion.


From the research I have done the maximum g force that a motorcycle can create from braking is around 1.28 g. Granted this is a motorcyle on a flat surface with optimal brakes, tires and road surface, but I would think a bicycle might be able to approach perhaps 1.0 g.(speculation on my part!)
I also think the loading of the forces is concentrated at the bottom of the head tube, exactly where this break occurred.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

29buzz said:


> Not trying to throw gas on a fire or get flamed...but I have seen even aluminum steerers almost cut by old school King headsets-I.E the ones before they used the Canecreek developed compression system-they were always a bit 'clunky' -it took diligence to keep the HS snug. The longer travel forks had more issues. A 29er is a lot more leverage on the lower headset cup/race area. Just some thoughts-please no flames-all these HS issues can be backed up,but it is not like there were huge trouble-but there were issues.


When you look at the niner testing video, it looks like the head tube of the fork is supported over a larger surface area than would be the case of just being supported by the bottom of the headset itself. I think a test like this would be more accurate if they used a standard head tube and headset to support the headtube.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Axe said:


> 66kg (650N for you purists) applied in this direction


To purists kilograms and Newtons are not interchangeable at all and masses are not applied in directions.
650 N = 66 kilograms-*force*, which is the force exerted by 66 kg of mass in the Earth's gravitational field (9.8 m/s^2) on whatever is supporting it. In the case of the fork test, it is equivalent to placing 66 kg (145 lbs.) of mass on the fork axle.
:thumbsup:


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

richwolf said:


> From the research I have done the maximum g force that a motorcycle can create from braking is around 1.28 g. Granted this is a motorcyle on a flat surface with optimal brakes, tires and road surface, but I would think a bicycle might be able to approach perhaps 1.0 g.(speculation on my part!)
> I also think the loading of the forces is concentrated at the bottom of the head tube, exactly where this break occurred.


Motorcycle's center of gravity is relatively much lower then bike+rider, so moment of force is lower. If it is twice as low, you can decelerate twice as hard without tipping over the front wheel - assuming you have enough traction. 1g sounds a bit much for a bicycle.
Forces do not really "concentrate" anywhere. Internal stress in the material will depend on its shape, structure and elastic deformation - presumably all taken into account when design (and execution) was made. 
We do know that those forks mostly work just fine for a whole lot of people. Whatever happened in this case is an obvious aberration - but it is still very interesting to know what was the cause of it.



meltingfeather said:


> To purists kilograms and Newtons are not interchangeable at all and masses are not applied in directions.
> 650 N = 66 kilograms-*force*, which is the force exerted by 66 kg of mass in the Earth's gravitational field (9.8 m/s^2) on whatever is supporting it. In the case of the fork test, it is equivalent to placing 66 kg (145 lbs.) of mass on the fork axle.
> :thumbsup:


Yes, you are right. And I do know that, given that I used to be a TA in mechanics and general physics classes when in grad school. But I still do not care about using precise terminology every time.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Axe said:


> Motorcycle's center of gravity is relatively much lower then bike+rider, so moment of force is lower. If it is twice as low, you can decelerate twice as hard without tipping over the front wheel - assuming you have enough traction. 1g sounds a bit much for a bicycle.


1g is a bit much for a bicycle, even on level ground and assuming traction is not limiting. Here's an analysis for a road bike showing max deccel on level ground of 0.63g in the saddle and 0.83g hanging off the back.
Going downhill and lack of perfect traction reduce the max possible decelleration.
Plowing into a stationary object would obviously change things a bit. 


Axe said:


> Forces do not really "concentrate" anywhere. Internal stress in the material will depend on its shape, structure and elastic deformation - presumably all taken into account when design (and execution) was made.


I think you are both saying the same thing. His colloquial "concentrate" I think refers to where stresses will be the largest, and the fork crown is a likely place for that to happen.


Axe said:


> We do know that those forks mostly work just fine for a whole lot of people. Whatever happened in this case is an obvious aberration - but it is still very interesting to know what was the cause of it.


agreed.


Axe said:


> Yes, you are right. And I do know that, given that I used to be a TA in mechanics and general physics classes when in grad school. But I still do not care about using precise terminology every time.


I was just pointing that out since the "conversion" between Newtons and kilograms became a point of confusion in this thread. :thumbsup:


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

meltingfeather said:


> Plowing into a stationary object would obviously change things a bit.


Right, as the pivot point would be not the contact patch with the ground, but in front of the wheel. Assuming that riders center of mass is about on the handlebars level, that increases static tip-over force by a factor of two or more. And that is before taking all the impact dynamics into account. I am too lazy to make a proper calculation - just it seems that the test is in the correct ballpark of typical forces involved. Which is, obviously, not surprising.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

richwolf said:


> From the research I have done the maximum g force that a motorcycle can create from braking is around 1.28 g. Granted this is a motorcyle on a flat surface with optimal brakes, tires and road surface, but I would think a bicycle might be able to approach perhaps 1.0 g.(speculation on my part!)
> I also think the loading of the forces is concentrated at the bottom of the head tube, exactly where this break occurred.


You must be talking about some special motorcyle.








from here


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Axe said:


> just it seems that the test is in the correct ballpark of typical forces involved. Which is, obviously, not surprising.


agreed :thumbsup:


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## motorbacon (Jun 17, 2010)

Before you all continue, can we get a tally going of who's an engineer or physicist? 

Just curious. And ****. I think we should all stop riding bikes all together. Find me a fork which has not broken at some point in history. Let's just use that one.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axe View Post
just it seems that the test is in the correct ballpark of typical forces involved. Which is, obviously, not surprising.



meltingfeather said:


> agreed :thumbsup:


Could be and probably is. The numbers just seemed low to me.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

motorbacon said:


> Before you all continue, can we get a tally going of who's an engineer or physicist?
> 
> Just curious. And ****. I think we should all stop riding bikes all together. Find me a fork which has not broken at some point in history. Let's just use that one.


Even if any of us are (not me!) have we ever seen an engineer or physicist make a mistake?

About 20 years ago a guy I knew who was an engineer produced a MTB carbon fiber fork. A buddy of his was riding it and it snapped and bloodied his face. The engineer had this incredulous look on his face when he saw what happened. He got out of the bike parts business and I heard he did rather well producing carbon fiber parts for the military.


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## mr. welcorn (May 14, 2006)

motorbacon said:


> Before you all continue, can we get a tally going of who's an engineer or physicist?


If "armchair" engineers count then I think I'm going to have to take my shoes off to tally that up (math was never my strong suit)...


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## squareback (Sep 19, 2011)

mr. welcorn said:


> ... I think I'm going to have to take my shoes off to tally that up (math was never my strong suit)...


Well that right there qualifies you to be an internet material scientist / engineer..


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

richwolf said:


> Even if any of us are (not me!) have we ever seen an engineer or physicist make a mistake?
> 
> About 20 years ago a guy I knew who was an engineer produced a MTB carbon fiber fork. A buddy of his was riding it and it snapped and bloodied his face. The engineer had this incredulous look on his face when he saw what happened. He got out of the bike parts business and I heard he did rather well producing carbon fiber parts for the military.


Good point, but on the flip-side: why do so many people have such a low expectation of themselves and others that they think the _any_ level of math-based analysis of a problem is only in the realm of degreed, professional engineers?


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2011)

richwolf said:


> From the research I have done the maximum g force that a motorcycle can create from braking is around 1.28 g. Granted this is a motorcyle on a flat surface with optimal brakes, tires and road surface, but I would think a bicycle might be able to approach perhaps 1.0 g.(speculation on my part!)
> I also think the loading of the forces is concentrated at the bottom of the head tube, exactly where this break occurred.


http://www.industrializedcyclist.com/braking-pitchover.pdf

The generally quoted maximum is about 0.7g but that depends on the details of the bicycle and the slope. A recumbent with a long wheelbase, low CoG, and large wheels would be greater.

Edit: Oh, haha, MF beat me to it. Same link.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

meltingfeather said:


> You must be talking about some special motorcyle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.pcbrakeinc.com/epub/AIQWinter2008MCBrakes.pdf

I went to another site where they had a figure of 1.28 g

I guess it depends where you look, the motorcyle and the test conditions.

Years ago I took a physics class (high school) and the instructor was going to teach us a lesson on how dangerous cars were and how long they took to stop. He reminded us that these were best case scenarios. I had just purchased a 1971 Honda 750 (state of the art back then!) and read a magazine test on it that blew away his best case scenarios for stopping distances. I brought it up in class and the next day brought in the magazine. He handed it back to me the following day and did not say a word one way or the other. Needless to say I did not get a very good grade in that class!


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## Teton29er (Jul 31, 2011)

motorbacon said:


> Before you all continue, can we get a tally going of who's an engineer or physicist?
> 
> Just curious. And ****. I think we should all stop riding bikes all together. Find me a fork which has not broken at some point in history. Let's just use that one.


 I'm sure there are many models of forks on the market which have not had a single catastrophic failure. Those are the ones I want to use, and the "oh well, stuff breaks" crowd can take their chances with the rest.


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## motorbacon (Jun 17, 2010)

Teton29er said:


> I'm sure there are many models of forks on the market which have not had a single catastrophic failure. Those are the ones I want to use, and the "oh well, stuff breaks" crowd can take their chances with the rest.


Please provide a list, starting..............now!


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

I can only imagine some of the comments that NINER employees/owners/designers have made regarding some of these posts..:skep:


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## Gregg K (Jan 12, 2004)

Even if we had drawn up a free body diagram of the fork, and made accurate assumptions, and applied them, I don't think that would help much. I say that because I'm betting this was a manufacturing defect. Furthermore, as we can see from the cross section of the broken part, the material isn't really an engineering material. We can't even treat it as a uniform cross section. 

I didn't want to chime in on this, because I have as much of a clue as everyone else on this thread. Just because I received a degree in engineering doesn't mean I know what's going on here.


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## frorider (Apr 2, 2005)

Good posts, MF.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I don't know if the niner folks are laughing or not. I think right now they have bigger fish to fry than to "laugh" at us non engineers.

I think if they are going to do a stress test, they should stress it til it breaks. I liked the one test video where a guy stomped on a carbon fork blade and it snapped! I believe the steel and aluminum blades bent.

I find these types of threads fascinating for a number of reasons.

Not every manufacturer or company gets the same pass here as others. Some can do no wrong and some can do no right. Not everyone is held to the same standards.

And in a way we are all crash test dummies. They don't stress test every fork or bike or component made and a "bad day at the office" can lead to a boatload of suspect parts.


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## Gregg K (Jan 12, 2004)

That's what a factor of safety is for. They don't make parts that experience maximum stresses. Especially critical parts. Which is why I suspect a manufacturing defect.


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## Teton29er (Jul 31, 2011)

motorbacon said:


> Please provide a list, starting..............now!


Ok, has anyone heard of a RockShox Recon Silver TK Air 29 breaking off unexpectedly?

I doubt it, even though there are probably 1000's more out there. But do tell since that is what I'm running.

Someone else posted earlier that "you cannot judge a fork by one failure"

Yes I can.

I'll make you a deal though--I won't tell you or anyone else how to use failure information, and you don't tell me what to do with it.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Teton29er said:


> Ok, has anyone heard of a RockShox Recon Silver TK Air 29 breaking off unexpectedly?
> 
> I doubt it, even though there are probably 1000's more out there. But do tell since that is what I'm running.
> 
> ...


I did a couple of google searches listed below and most fork failure searches seem to come up with carbon fiber forks.

bike steerer tube failures - Google Search

bike steerer tube failures - Google Search

I will do some more searches and see what I come up with.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

Fixed Gear Bike Fork Break - Fork Snap - RavenFeeders Funny and Dangerous - YouTube

Surprised he was wearing a helmet but good thing he was.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

Suspension forks have other interesting ways to fail too. I've heard of plenty of instances of coil suspensions forks breaking a top cap and shooting the coil into the rider's face or throat. Not quite as dramatic, but myself and some of my friends have had problems with leaks in RockShox air forks that suddenly give you a really short, nearly rigid fork, which of course only ever seems to happen on the nastiest descents


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## efraguiluz (Aug 5, 2010)

Gregg K said:


> That's what a factor of safety is for. They don't make parts that experience maximum stresses. Especially critical parts. Which is why I suspect a manufacturing defect.


yea i would agree as with your previous post about the FDB since carbon does not react in a predictable way that one could calculate on the back of an envelope. you would realistically need to do a FEA of the fork. I pretty sure Niner are going to ask to see the fork to determine went wrong with the fork its what they do and my company and Niner will no doubt perform materials testing on the fork and then write a report and give us the layman's version of the report. i would have to say that the most likely problem was a manufacturing defect if I'm to believe the guys riding style ( which I'm taking with a grain of salt) and since i have no clue as to how the fork is made i wont speculate on the type of failure.

on a side note on the whole units discussion
kilograms can be expressed as a unit of mass and force they are 2 different units so one is expressed as kgm and kgf most of the time when you hear kilos in the news its Kgf since the euros didn't like using newtons for reasons that don't really matter. the same can be said about pounds there is a pounds force and a pounds mass denoted as Lbf and Lbm again its dumb but this time ppl dont want to use the real unit for mass which is slugs . in the end its all dim analysis


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## rpinata (Jan 29, 2009)

Whoa! Rode mine today through a nice bumpy ride with no issues.

Anyone else who is posting?


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

motorbacon said:


> Before you all continue, can we get a tally going of who's an engineer or physicist?


I do have a Ph.D. in Physics. But now I play piano in a bordello.

I once took part in a project - designing composite support structure for a space based experiment. What I have learned is that I better leave any discussion about why and what failed in a composite part to professionals. I have very little clue - the only reason I am in this thread talking is that any bike parts failures do worry me.


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## Loudpawlz (Jan 26, 2004)

*Check out this graph and stuff*

you guys are awesome and totally deserve this


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Axe said:


> I do have a Ph.D. in Physics. But now I play piano in a bordello.
> 
> I once took part in a project - designing composite support structure for a space based experiment. What I have learned is that I better leave any discussion about why and what failed in a composite part to professionals. I have very little clue - the only reason I am in this thread talking is that any bike parts failures do worry me.


Ha ha!

Like any profession there are bad engineers, good engineers, great engineers and super duper engineers. Just because someone has a degree or training in something doesn't automatically mean they are good at it. The Dr. who removed my eye due to cancer was a real hack. I have seen my share of lousy "professionals" over the years
I have a degree, but I certainly know that I am not a standout in my field.
The "professionals" actual rocket scientists thought that a few missing parts on the space shuttle were no big deal either.


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## PoisonDartFrog (Jul 8, 2010)

MTBR Guidelines to be used whenever someone posts a thread about a component failure:

1. Assume it was installed incorrectly.
2. Assume the rider is unskilled.
3. Assume it was abused.
4. Point out that other similar components fail too.
5. Express doubt because you have one "and it has never happened to you".
6. Ask for sh1tloads of pics or other evidence. If the OP fails to do this, assume that is evidence of dishonesty.
7. Give the OP the 3rd degree in an attempt to discover "lies" or other inconsistencies in their story.
8. Simply refuse to believe it.
9. Rat-hole the thread with pointless technicalities in an attempt to prove god-knows-what.
10. Shoot the messenger and ask why they want to bash the manufacturer.

Oh wait, never mind.


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## Gregg K (Jan 12, 2004)

efraguiluz said:


> i would have to say that the most likely problem was a manufacturing defect if I'm to believe the guys riding style ( which I'm taking with a grain of salt) and since i have no clue as to how the fork is made i wont speculate on the type of failure.


Oops, thanks for reminding me. For all we know the fork is just fine, and the guy drove over it with a forklift. I assumed he was just gingerly sauntering along, and it broke. So it will be interesting to hear the results of an actual study of the pieces.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> MTBR Guidelines to be used whenever someone posts a thread about a component failure:
> 
> 1. Assume it was installed incorrectly.
> 2. Assume the rider is unskilled.
> ...


That is some funny stuff!


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

richwolf said:


> I think if they are going to do a stress test, they should stress it til it breaks.





richwolf said:


> And in a way we are all crash test dummies. They don't stress test every fork or bike or component made and a "bad day at the office" can lead to a boatload of suspect parts.


hold on... are you saying you think "they" should test every component until failure and then, what, fix it before they sell it to you? ut:


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

meltingfeather said:


> hold on... are you saying you think "they" should test every component until failure and then, what, fix it before they sell it to you? ut:


Where did I ever say that?

You are the looney one.

Read a little closer next time.


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## Mojo Troll (Jun 3, 2004)

*it happens*

We enjoy a sport that has inherint dangers and risk. Sometimes parts fail/break. I hope the rider has a speedy recover. Let Niner and the rider sort it out.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Mojo Troll said:


> We enjoy a sport that has inherint dangers and risk. Sometimes parts fail/break.


I do refuse to accept a fork failure of this kind as a reasonably expected occurrence. Fork legs should not break off, headtubes should not shear off etc. Should not happen. It does, apparently, but it shouldn't.


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## Mojo Troll (Jun 3, 2004)

Axe said:


> I do refuse to accept a fork failure of this kind as a reasonably expected occurrence. Fork legs should not break off, headtubes should not shear off etc. Should not happen. It does, apparently, but it shouldn't.


With all do respect. Either you have'nt been riding long or you don't ride enough. I've seen every part of a bike fail/break over the years. Does'nt matter what material it was made from.

As said in my original post. It's not for any of us to sort out.


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## Axe (Jan 12, 2004)

Mojo Troll said:


> With all do respect. Either you have'nt been riding long or you don't ride enough. I've seen every part of a bike fail/break over the years. Does'nt matter what material it was made from.


What part of "It does, apparently, but it shouldn't" was not clear?

Airplanes do fall out of the sky as well. Is it regarded in "let's move on, nothing to see here" fashion by anybody? Consequences to a person health can be quite similar.

You sound dismissive towards something that is clearly not normal.



Mojo Troll said:


> As said in my original post. It's not for any of us to sort out.


Why not? I can make my decisions, and I do. I pick up parts for my bikes based on what I know and I do not need to conduct a detailed structural analysis for that. I certainly do avoid parts with a known history of failure or lack of reliability track record. Frankly, I often do not care who is at fault. It is my frigging head to protect.

Have not been riding enough?


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## Mojo Troll (Jun 3, 2004)

Axe said:


> What part of "It does, apparently, but it shouldn't" was not clear?
> 
> Airplanes do fall out of the sky as well. Is it regarded in "let's move on, nothing to see here" fashion by anybody? Consequences to a person health can be quite similar.
> 
> ...


de·ci·sion   /dɪˈsɪʒən/ Show Spelled[dih-sizh-uhn] Show IPAnoun 1.the act or process of deciding; determination, as of a question or doubt, by making a judgment: They must make a decision between these two contestants. 2.the act of or need for making up one's mind: This is a difficult decision. 3.something that is decided; resolution: He made a poor decision. 4.a judgment, as one formally pronounced by a court.
5.the quality of being decided; firmness: He spoke with decision.

as·sump·tion   /əˈsʌmpʃən/ Show Spelled[uh-suhmp-shuhn] Show IPAnoun 1.something taken for granted; a supposition: a correct assumption. Synonyms: presupposition; hypothesis, conjecture, guess, postulate, theory. 2.the act of taking for granted or supposing. Synonyms: presumption; presupposition. 3.the act of taking to or upon oneself. Synonyms: acceptance, shouldering. 4.the act of taking possessionof something: the assumption of power. Synonyms: seizure, appropriation, usurpation, arrogation. 5.arrogance; presumption. Synonyms: presumptuousness; effrontery, forwardness, gall.


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## JeroenK (Oct 3, 2005)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> MTBR Guidelines to be used whenever someone posts a thread about a component failure:
> 
> 1. Assume it was installed incorrectly.
> 2. Assume the rider is unskilled.
> ...


Let me first say I pity the guy that took a big hit when his fork broke...

PoisonDartFrog's list indeed is funny, but let's look at it another way:

Someone posts a picture of a broken part. The first post has been edited now, but it was more or less like 'look at this guys!'. No real question to it, like what could cause this, if this is covered by warranty, not even questions like 'can this material/manufacturer be trusted', that can never be answered by looking at one case.

That leaves this thread wide open for exploring possible causes in every direction and adding one's own experiences with part failure. It's only logic most of PoisonDartFrog questions are asked. There HAVE been cases of broken bike parts that just smelled of rider error / brute force impact of something not related to riding / installation error... Some parts simply do have manufacturing errors in them... Some are designed in a bad way... Fact is: We do not know, possibly even the owner of the fork does not know and we can only speculate.

OP simply asked for all this, by posting this case and nothing with it that would at least be some restriction to the following discussion.


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## bardynt (Oct 11, 2011)

well sounds like good thing told my mate not to get carbon fibre forks

i was saying to him with his weight would break

why do people get so up in arms when something breaks is there a lot the companies who make the forks trying to defend there defective product

with bike getting lighter and lighter something is bound to happen esp mountain bike really like something is bound to fail so i think there is going to be point were too light a bike is going to fail under heavy load


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> MTBR Guidelines to be used whenever someone posts a thread about a component failure:
> 
> 1. Assume it was installed incorrectly.
> 2. Assume the rider is unskilled.
> ...


This is pretty funny and basically true for every thread I've read on here about product failure. If you post dissatisfaction with a product or manufacturer you had better be ready to get flamed at some point. It's like there are moles on MTBR representing the industry as a whole to cut down any decent before it gets any steam behind it. Like we should all be so grateful that anyone produces anything that they should be excused from anything they might do wrong. Odd way to look at it, I think.

The first 3 could apply to any time you alert a manufacture that their product might be faulty. I'm currently in a dispute with a tire manufacture. I have 2 of their tires that work fine and one of a different model that is so loose on the rim that it blew off 3 times before I got it to stay on. Their first response was to try and blame the rim. Even though their other tires work fine on the same rim, but for some reason that isn't part of their comprehension of the issue.

I'm not saying we should expect to live in a perfect world but things fail and sometimes need to be re-engineered and if someone didn't make a stink about it nothing would improve.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Rigid forks are stupid.


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

Rivet said:


> Rigid forks are stupid.


That's why they use them on CX bikes.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

SeaBass_ said:


> That's why they use them on CX bikes.


 And riding a CX bike off road feels like what I imagine it must feel like to wear spiky high heals on gravel. Not really the right tool for the job.


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## bardynt (Oct 11, 2011)

yep def agree there 

i think don't want to know something they bought might not be that good

what i find more frustrating is that someone will tell you some product is good but not tell you that the products has it faults and wont tell you

esp companies don't want to know it faulty until someone forced them to recall on the product sold until some lawyers get involved

well at least i know carbon forks prob not a good idea for a heavy guy like me and too be careful on what rims i get esp since my rims on current bike tend to bend under my weight


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## juan_speeder (May 11, 2008)

Rivet said:


> Rigid forks are stupid.


Only Specialized forks have a Brain.


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## steadite (Jan 13, 2007)

*It's not "snapped"...*



meltingfeather said:


> Don't be so sure...
> a buddy of mine ended up on his face when his steel fork snapped.


...I can see from here that's not "snapped", that's a fatigue crack. He should have heard that crack creaking and groaning for weeks before it went critical.


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## billmania (Nov 20, 2008)

i'm sorry but i'm calling bull **** on this whole thing...he broke the hardest part of the fork?? Find that hard to believe. sorry.


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## blantonator (May 6, 2007)

CupOfJava said:


> He was simply riding FH and it sheared off on a small, simple DH section.
> 
> He rides very smoothly with very little impact to the fork..... His fork was ~18 months old.


Which section did it happen at? I ride there every week, and think you guys riding rigid there are crazy.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

billmania said:


> i'm sorry but i'm calling bull **** on this whole thing...he broke the hardest part of the fork?? Find that hard to believe. sorry.


Considering that the crown is one of the highest stressed parts of the fork...


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

richwolf said:


> Where did I ever say that?
> 
> You are the looney one.
> 
> Read a little closer next time.


lol... read the two quotes. it'll smack ya in the face. if that doesn't do it i can't help. :thumbsup:

p.s. "stress tests" are a cardiology thing


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## hellocook (Nov 5, 2006)

just removed my niner carbon fork.

if the broken fork had the base plate removed without a proper tool, this can easily lead to the seen failure.


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## frdfandc (Sep 5, 2007)

I'm chalking this up to as poo poo happens. Parts bend, break, have catastrophic failures due to any and all reasons.

User error, manufacturing flaws. It doesn't matter. Nothing is perfect. Sorry to hear that someone got injured. But face it, we all take calculated risk riding mountain bikes. If you scared of getting hurt, STAY HOME. Quite crying about it and go ride.

I do hope that the rider heals up quickly.

That being said, I'm going to be ordering a Niner carbon fork in the near future to use on my SS.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Fanning the flames....

3 more instances where the fork crown did NOT break:

1) Using the Nashbar ATB big fork (Cro-Mo replacement for rigid Specialized steel fork) - I sped off down a hill on a trail I'd never ridden in front of a group that I thought was going too slow. The reason they were going slow is because right after the first drop there's a HUGE boulder field. Well, I was going wayyyy too fast, hit the drop, sat on the rear tire, skipped across a gap, pounded a boulder with the front tire which launched me clear over it without ever letting the rear tire touch it (the fork was used like a pogo stick to bounce the bike over the boulder). I managed to stay on, and when my eyeballs stopped rattling in my head I was through it. I still have that fork on my "camping bike". It has been thoroughly tested since then - I'm not worried about it.

2) At about 5mph my buddy dropped his front wheel in a hole at Snowshoe (this is the "old" Snowshoe). We heard this tremendous "CRACK" (I even got it on video somewhere) and thought for sure his head tube had snapped clean off. He did not go over the bars - just planted it. Searching and searching, we found nothing wrong with his old Rock Shox SID-whatever, but we eventually found his lower HS cup split in half. Fortunately a key ring was the right size to work as a headset spacer and take up the slack until we got down the mountain.
This is the same guy who rode down a big, steep, scary flight of concrete stairs at the old Cleveland Browns Stadium and couldn't even control his speed - hit the landing, rode a nose wheelie across - and the only thing that kept him going was that the next flight of stairs dropped and he was able to ride it out before he went OTB (this guy never had that "little voice").

3) Night ride newbie dropped his front wheel into a creek and bent his rigid fork far enough that his tire was past his downtube. Even as my Herculean friend leg pressed the fork back to approximately original geometry, the crown did not break.

Didn't we go through this in the '90's? Go lighter and lighter 'til it breaks, then go a little heavier for a useful product.(?)

The guy that said we should expect our bikes to tolerate anything our bodies can tolerate, short of crashing, was spot on.

Anything _that_ expensive should be a long-term component. Maybe we need a definition of "long term". I mean, even DH rims have a life expectancy.

...Or check the crown race install.

-F

PS - I wonder how much proprietary info is contained in the broken fork pictures? The Niner guys are prob'ly like :madman::madman::madman:


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## eyeomega (Oct 20, 2011)

.......


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

modifier said:


> ...
> 
> I wonder how the rider went down and the bottom of the headtube/headset never hit the ground? ...


Yes, very interesting.

-F


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## eyeomega (Oct 20, 2011)

.......


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

eyeomega said:


> If you're going downhill and the fork snaps, you're going over the bars. If you hold onto the bars as you go over, you'll pull the bike around with you and the bottom of the headtube won't hit the ground. You'd have to be moving pretty fast though, so it would be a fairly awful crash.


:skep:


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## PoisonDartFrog (Jul 8, 2010)

Fleas said:


> Yes, very interesting.
> 
> -F


So, what are you implying? That the guy intentionally broke his $400 carbon fork, then lied about it just so he could post a fake thread on MTBR? And he would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for your Sherlock Holmes-like powers of deduction. Oh that's brilliant.

:madman:


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## eyeomega (Oct 20, 2011)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> So, what are you implying? That the guy intentionally broke his $400 carbon fork, then lied about it just so he could post a fake thread on MTBR? And he would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for your Sherlock Holmes-like powers of deduction. Oh that's brilliant.
> 
> :madman:


:thumbsup:


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## PoisonDartFrog (Jul 8, 2010)

I am not saying Niner forks suck.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

eyeomega said:


> If you're going downhill and the fork snaps, you're going over the bars. If you hold onto the bars as you go over, you'll pull the bike around with you and the bottom of the headtube won't hit the ground. You'd have to be moving pretty fast though, so it would be a fairly awful crash.


A complete absence of gravity would be helpful also.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Geez!*



richwolf said:


> Where did I ever say that?
> 
> You are the looney one.
> 
> Read a little closer next time.


Will you two knock it off? We don't need an ego-festival here.

Just settle this once and for all between you two:










My take is that the OP got a one off defect. Maybe not enough epoxy, or it somehow didn't make it into all of the crevices during injection/pressing.

Since we aren't seeing a rash of broken Niner forks here, I'm going to say it's a fluke.

Yeah, it would be nice if Niner had some sort of test rig where they can accurately be sure that a fork can take it's rated pounding before sending it out in the world. Easton does this with their carbon bars. I think I read somewhere that they have some sort of test rig where they clamp it in a stem, hang weights on the bar ends and drop it from a set height and see if it breaks, then inspect it before packing.


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*For that matter....*



frdfandc said:


> I'm chalking this up to as poo poo happens. Parts bend, break, have catastrophic failures due to any and all reasons.
> 
> User error, manufacturing flaws. It doesn't matter. Nothing is perfect. Sorry to hear that someone got injured. But face it, we all take calculated risk riding mountain bikes. If you scared of getting hurt, STAY HOME. Quite crying about it and go ride.
> 
> ...


... there's a calculated risk for staying at home.

How many people do I know who are grossly overweight diabetics from sitting in front of their computers all day long and not ever getting outside for even a good walk... like ever? A crapload, I tell you what.

I'll take my chances on a Niner Carbon fork over that, thankyouverymuch. :thumbsup:


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## PoisonDartFrog (Jul 8, 2010)

I sometimes turn when I ride. So if a fork failed in a turn, even a small one, one would fall to the inside of the turn, not straight foward. 

Of course, this no doubt due to the fact that I lack the mad skillz.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

pimpbot said:


> Yeah, it would be nice if Niner had some sort of test rig where they can accurately be sure that a fork can take it's rated pounding before sending it out in the world. Easton does this with their carbon bars. I think I read somewhere that they have some sort of test rig where they clamp it in a stem, hang weights on the bar ends and drop it from a set height and see if it breaks, then inspect it before packing.


Mechanical testing might be too much to ask. Some sort of xray / ultrasound imaging confirming construction to spec might do it. Just like in airliners.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

More fuel to this speculative fire - King headset?

oops - already mentioned. I've had bad luck with Kings on my 29ers with standard head tubes. My tapered Inset King seems to working well and no issues with the CK on my road bike.

BTW - I have a Niner fork and I weigh about 230lb and it is staying on my bike. It is a very popular fork and this is the only failure that I know off. Statistically, I can only assume there may be other failures.


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## .40AET (Jun 7, 2007)

I'd like to hear back from Niner.


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## billmania (Nov 20, 2008)

boomn said:


> Considering that the crown is one of the highest stressed parts of the fork...


also therefore the strongest. he it a garage, whilst the bike was on his roof, that caused a hairline crack, he rode it anyway, and now hes trying to weasel out of it so he can steal a new fork from niner. a crash you say? pics or it didnt happen.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

let me re-phrase that, rigid forks are stupid on a mountain bike. I personally know of three people who have spent time in the hospital when their rigid mountain bike fork failed. Two steel, one aluminum. I remember back before suspension bending at least two rigid forks a year until Bontrager/Tange came out with their bolt on crown forks. If you ride above walking pace on anything other than buffed singletrack and or your a fatty you have no business riding a rigid fork offroad.


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## bardynt (Oct 11, 2011)

lol 

wow a bike part fails and know big mystery lol

of course the forks are going to take punishment yes could be that were the carbon fibre and metal were bonded together it found the weak point when it was built

anyone with basic understanding of engineering would realize these two materials if not properly put together will fail under load esp were the two parts were joined that is weak point

so to me that is were i would expect it to fail like in those pics

of course guys saying **** someone heavy on the bike broke it yes, but what people have to realize not everyone is small. so maybe carbon fiibre forks itsnt made for big heavy guys like me


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

I road a carbon Niner fork at a Niner demo day yesterday on one of their steel ss s. It's a nice fork. If I was going to build rigid I'd buy one in a heart beat. Also road their hardtail carbon frame with a Reba fork. I'm not a hard tail guy but once again if I was going to buy a hard tail that would be pretty high up on the list. For a full rigid bike a combination of the 2 would be hard to beat. 

Carbon fiber construction is a good thing when done right and they are getting it pretty well figured out.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

pimpbot said:


> Will you two knock it off? We don't need an ego-festival here.
> 
> Just settle this once and for all between you two:
> 
> ...


Thanks Dad!
MF called me a loony and I responded. Sorry if you think it is an ego thing on my part.


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## Captain_America1976 (Mar 15, 2005)

blantonator said:


> Which section did it happen at? I ride there every week, and think you guys riding rigid there are crazy.


Just because you think riding rigid there is crazy shouldn't mean a rigid fork should while riding there. There are guys who regularly ride The Shed and Gambrill rigid. I rode Patapsco rigid today. Was that crazy too? I had a great ride, and it was a nice change of pace from the squishy geared bike. If you have the skills, you can ride rigid anywhere in this area, and not expect a fork failure.


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## billmania (Nov 20, 2008)

i personally know of three people who have been hospitalized due to collisions with trees, ergo, trees are stupid.


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## chase1963 (Jul 31, 2007)

...


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## motorbacon (Jun 17, 2010)

Rivet said:


> let me re-phrase that, rigid forks are stupid on a mountain bike. I personally know of three people who have spent time in the hospital when their rigid mountain bike fork failed. Two steel, one aluminum. I remember back before suspension bending at least two rigid forks a year until Bontrager/Tange came out with their bolt on crown forks. If you ride above walking pace on anything other than buffed singletrack and or your a fatty you have no business riding a rigid fork offroad.


wow. you're rehtart.


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## PoisonDartFrog (Jul 8, 2010)

I think we can all agree on one thing: 

The biggest mistake the OP made was even bothering to post news of the failure on MTBR. He thought he was doing a good thing by simply informing the MTB community about what happened. What a fool.

Half of the responses in this thread remind me of the sort prejudicial gossipy second-guessing you'd expect from a sewing circle full of alcoholic housewives.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> He thought he was doing a good thing by simply informing the MTB community about what happened.


lol... good one.


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

motorbacon said:


> wow. you're rehtart.


Right back at ya slick.


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## frdfandc (Sep 5, 2007)

pimpbot said:


> ... there's a calculated risk for staying at home.
> 
> How many people do I know who are grossly overweight diabetics from sitting in front of their computers all day long and not ever getting outside for even a good walk... like ever? A crapload, I tell you what.
> 
> I'll take my chances on a Niner Carbon fork over that, thankyouverymuch. :thumbsup:


You get the point though. :thumbsup:


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> modifier said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


I was not implying. I was definitively stating that, IMO, modifier made a "very interesting" observation that had not previously occurred to me.
Stranger things have happened.
[sarcasm]Although, now that you mention it, I hadn't thought anyone would go through the trouble of getting so many people involved in a made up story just to troll on MTBR.... hmmmmm. :idea: But maybe you _are_ onto something. Don't you think it's suspicious that the injured guy hasn't responded here or posted gory pictures on the "Rider Down" injury forum? Heck, he can still type right? Very fishy.[/sarcasm]

-F


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Last week Chris from Niner posted that he would answer any questions we may have about the fork. I sent him a courteous email and asked if this were an isolated incident or whether the problem was pervasive. He didn't have the courtesy to respond even to tell me to mind my own business. Now, I have a $300+ wall decoration. Niner homers --- crawl out from under your rocks --- flame on.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

fos'l said:


> Last week Chris from Niner posted that he would answer any questions we may have about the fork. I sent him a courteous email and asked if this were an isolated incident or whether the problem was pervasive. He didn't have the courtesy to respond even to tell me to mind my own business. Now, I have a $300+ wall decoration. Niner homers --- crawl out from under your rocks --- flame on.


I suppose he could have responded to tell you he can't tell you, but it isn't realistic to expect that any company is going to email people about failure rates, product defects, customer complaints, etc. I worked for a tire company that had many secrets about the mfg process, rubber formulas, etc, but the most secret of all secrets was the customer return info.


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## SeaBass_ (Apr 7, 2006)

fos'l said:


> Last week Chris from Niner posted that he would answer any questions we may have about the fork. I sent him a courteous email and asked if this were an isolated incident or whether the problem was pervasive. He didn't have the courtesy to respond even to tell me to mind my own business. Now, I have a $300+ wall decoration. Niner homers --- crawl out from under your rocks --- flame on.


I think if it was pervasive, we would have heard about it here....


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> I think we can all agree on one thing:
> 
> The biggest mistake the OP made was even bothering to post news of the failure on MTBR. He thought he was doing a good thing by simply informing the MTB community about what happened. What a fool.
> 
> Half of the responses in this thread remind me of the sort prejudicial gossipy second-guessing you'd expect from a sewing circle full of alcoholic housewives.


I can see your point.

On the other hand, it was sure helpful to see the other members having issues with the Jet 9 linkages when mine had issues also.

Someone has got to post up a potential issue and be the "first" to post it.

Was it done the appropriate way? Nah... Still glad he did post though.

I think that a lot of us are protective of NINER. They are a small company at the forefront of the 29er movement that we all seem to believe in with stong conviction.

Had this been a Bontrager carbon fork, for example, 99% of us would lay blame on the big evil Trek corporation..

.02


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

My main point (I'll try to be more succinct.) was that he asked for questions, but wasn't up front enough to provide ANY answers. Please respond if you still don't understand. By the way, PDF --- your posts are hilarious and incisive. It's amazing how far you get the needle in without being offensive. Good job.


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## slim_pickens (Sep 13, 2004)

*carbon composite steerers*

What many are missing here is that this incident and others that occur while "just riding along" are most likely fatigue failures. Fatigue failure will occur without a crash (although maybe immediately before one) and can result from regular, non-abusive use of a product.

The reason carbon composite is a less appropriate steerer tube material than steel or aluminum is that the cracks which form at the beginning of a fatigue failure are more likely be internal. Fatigue cracks in metal typically form on high strain surfaces, where they can be discovered by inspection.

An important issue with alternate bicycle part materials is that it can be difficult to change design dimensions to match the characteristics of a new component material. Going from steel to aluminum to composite frames worked because the tubing diameter could be increased easily from 1 1/8" to the huge diameters we have today. Going from steel to titanium BB spindles in the 90s didn't work as well because the spindle diameters were too small and impossible to increase before the advent of new BB standards. Going from steel to aluminum steerers worked because the steerer diameter standard went from 1" to 1.125" and now 1.25" for longer forks. Carbon composite steerers may require yet another standard.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2011)

slim_pickens said:


> What many are missing here is that this incident and others that occur while "just riding along" are most likely fatigue failures.


We don't know that.



slim_pickens said:


> Carbon composite steerers may require yet another standard.


That would be real surprising.


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## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

pimpbot said:


> Easton does this with their carbon bars._ I think I read somewhere_ that they have some sort of test rig where they clamp it in a stem, hang weights on the bar ends and drop it from a set height and see if it breaks, then inspect it before packing.


Really? Every single bar? My bar had no marks where it was clamped and tested.


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Fleas said:


> PS - I wonder how much proprietary info is contained in the broken fork pictures? The Niner guys are prob'ly like :madman::madman::madman:


There's already copies of the style out there. And if anybody wanted to know long ago all they had to do was buy one and cut it apart.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

billmania said:


> i personally know of three people who have been hospitalized due to collisions with trees, ergo, trees are stupid.


trees are not stupid.. some people are and the worst is: they will never figure it out. Good luck. You will need it.


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## Niner Bikes (Dec 9, 2004)

*Niner Bikes official response to carbon fork incident*

Thank you for your patience, we understand that many of you are awaiting answers regarding this incident.

We at Niner are dedicated to designing the best products possible. We utilize an independent test lab for 3rd party EN certification, which is the most rigorous standardized testing in our industry. We perform cyclic and destructive testing at this lab. Furthermore, since the beginning of our carbon fork production, we have also performed additional testing of forks from production to verify the quality control testing performed at the factory.


This appears to be an isolated incident.

We are still waiting for the fork in question to be shipped to us.

To date we have produced and sold over 4500 carbon forks.

This fork exceeds all EN fork testing standards. For those not familiar with EN standards - these are European safety standards which are significantly harder to meet than the US CPSC standards. As an American company, we are not required to meet these standards to sell in the USA, but we apply the same high safety standards to all of our products.

Niner's engineering team is in charge of our portion of this investigation. Our engineering team has extensive experience in testing standards as well real world destructive testing. This includes time running a physical destruction lab for another bike company and as a member of the ASTM's sub-committee on bicycle testing.

Every single person at Niner is an avid rider. Most of our families and friends are avid riders. We all depend upon Niner products to be safe and reliable. We take any incident seriously, and understand your concerns.

The Niner Team


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

It's NOT the rider's fault. It's NOT the op's fault, It's not even the LBS's fault.. .


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## topmounter (Jul 30, 2003)

I'm glad to see that Niner is on top of this one.

I worked at bike shop long enough to appreciate the phenomena that is the inexplicable "JRA incident".


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## Marrkie (Aug 17, 2004)

Rivet said:


> let me re-phrase that, rigid forks are stupid on a mountain bike. I personally know of three people who have spent time in the hospital when their rigid mountain bike fork failed. Two steel, one aluminum. I remember back before suspension bending at least two rigid forks a year until Bontrager/Tange came out with their bolt on crown forks. If you ride above walking pace on anything other than buffed singletrack and or your a fatty you have no business riding a rigid fork offroad.


You know that people have been riding rigid forks on bikes since, well, the bike was invented? Did you know that suspension forks for MTB's only took off in the mid 90's leaving a decade or more of people really only ever riding rigid forks? Ever heard of the re-pack? Mt Tam? Seen video footage of world cup downhill races with people using rigid forks? Or are you 12?


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

colker1 said:


> It's NOT the rider's fault. It's NOT the op's fault, It's not even the LBS's fault.. .


 Niner's "TEAM" appears to have passed the bar with flying colors so it can't be their fault either.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

Fred Smedley said:


> Niner's "TEAM" appears to have passed the bar with flying colors so it can't be their fault either.


it's probably my fault.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

I have one of their forks on my Reynolds 853 steel frame, and it has been ridden 100% on pavement, with Spinergy Xyclone disc wheels. Makes for a very light-feeling and compliant ride, but I am contemplating throwing some knobbies o it for this coming weekend to ride on the local mountain singletrack. I was a bit concerned about the all-cf construction, but I follower installation instructions to the letter, and used all the appropriate tools. 
I guess we'll just have to see how it handles a few slightly rocky sections. I don't plan on doing anything stupid, or even daring. 

There's people who distrust spinergy's too, citing failure issues, but I've got 4 sets, have only trued one wheel among them after close to 10,000 collective trail-miles, and now I only trust them to ride on. And I ain't no lightweight, either. The wheels simply work well for me. I expected the same for the Niner CF fork. So far, so good.


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## topmounter (Jul 30, 2003)

We are still talking about a single incident.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

I wouldnt ever worry about mine, i hit a solid retaining wall when trying to ride up a trail feature ive rode 100's of times, i was doing about 15kph (10mph), the bike bounced back about 3-4 meters from the wall and dumped me over the bars and over the wall. When i got up and seen where the bike was i was certain i had done damage, that was a few months back, they are bullet proof !

I am 210lbs and will certainly buy another if i ever change bikes.


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## lawfarm (May 14, 2010)

I don't, and never have, owned any Niner parts.

But I follow this thread because it is interesting. I have no irons in the fire.

I have no idea what more anyone could expect out of Niner. They don't have the fork yet and cannot provide answers, but they have publicly committed to a detailed inspection and cause determination, and have been as up front as a manufacturer could possibly be under the circumstances.

Again, not a Niner owner, but kudos to Niner for the approach they're taking here. It really shows a commitment to your consumers. Great job guys.


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

I'm not choosing sides one way or another with this one. In fact a Niner fork is on my list of replacements when I finally get around to dumping my White Brothers. None the less, I do find it hard to believe the JRA is what caused this. I suspect that perhaps there was damage to the fork sustained earlier and it eventually gave way.

While the bike may have been maintained by a certified mechanic I seriously doubt that the bike was checked out after every post ride. Seriously, none of us run our bike up to the shop after every ride to have a mechanic take it all apart and rebuild it to make sure that all parts are functioning properly and in good working order. That just doesn't happen...unless you're on a pro team that travels with mechanics and what not (like in the Tour De France or something). The one thing I have gotten out of this thread is that I realize that I don't check out my fork as much as I should. Yes, I take a good look at it when I clean it up which used to be after every ride. But the past month or so I have gotten lazy and not spent as much time wiping it all down and really inspecting things the way I used to. This thread has reminded me how important that can be. Especially when riding a carbon fork. Personally, I don't think my WB fork is as good a design as the Niner so perhaps I should suck it up and really start looking at this thing again.

None the less, it sucks when a nice part like this fails. But it does happen and it sucks that someone was injured because of it. I do wish him a speedy recovery and hope that things work out for all parties involved. However, we must all keep in mind that we all take a risk of something failing every time we go for a ride. Be it a pedal, carbon bars, stem, seat post/clamp, hubs, spokes, brakes, all of which can be quite horrific!

Also, for some of you that perhaps have never ridden or seen fountain head here is a clip of one of the downhill sections from the trails for you. I'm sure there are others out there as well. I have ridden FH myself a couple of times and I can tell you that yes, there are simple sections as well as more technical ones such as this out there.


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## Andy Pancroft (Aug 3, 2011)

Frikken Niner bastards. You SOB's!!!! My Air 9 has a flat!!!!


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

topmounter said:


> We are still talking about a single incident.


A single incident, would be of no concern, if it was a huge number of forks, but 4.500 forks, and one going south in a spectacular manner, is a big number.

If RockShox had a capital failure per 4.500 forks, we would hear about it happening left and right. The only case I recall, they made a total recall of the entire series affected.

It was the Domain 308 as I recall.

Magura


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## Andy Pancroft (Aug 3, 2011)

Mr.Magura said:


> A single incident, would be of no concern, if it was a huge number of forks, but 4.500 forks, and one going south in a spectacular manner, is a big number.
> 
> If RockShox had a capital failure per 4.500 forks, we would hear about it happening left and right. The only case I recall, they made a total recall of the entire series affected.
> 
> ...


Wow!! Recall is a pretty big step and, could potentially be financially devastating to a company!! What did they end up doing....repairing, retro-fitting, replacing, discontinuing??


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

Andy Pancroft said:


> Wow!! Recall is a pretty big step and, could potentially be financially devastating to a company!! What did they end up doing....repairing, retro-fitting, replacing, discontinuing??


They replaced the forks.

I agree it's no fun for a company to recall an entire series, but I guess the guys at RockShox who counts nickels and dimes did the math, and it turned out to be cheaper than the lawsuits for not doing so when knowing the series had shown faulty forks.

Magura


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## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

Our shop deals with three major brands of bikes, A,B, and C. All three brands had a fork recall this season.

Brand A recalled their aluminum fork with steel steer tube that was installed on their cyclocross bikes. People were just JRAing and the steer tube would snap, happened to a couple of our customers. These bikes were manufactured in 09, the problem started to show up in 2011.

Brand B recalled their carbon fork with aluminum steer tube because the brake bosses were separating from the fork legs.

Brand C recalled their all carbon road bike fork because the carbon steer tube was separating from the carbon crown.

Can't remember what fork/s it was last season, a suspension mountain bike fork and there was a fork from a hybrid if I _recall_ correctly. Defective and recalled forks are not an uncommmon occurance in this industry. Sometimes it takes a while for a problem to surface, it's certainly not restricted to light weight carbon, steel and aluminum break also.


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## PoisonDartFrog (Jul 8, 2010)

Fleas said:


> I was not implying. I was definitively stating that, IMO, modifier made a "very interesting" observation that had not previously occurred to me.
> Stranger things have happened.
> [sarcasm]Although, now that you mention it, I hadn't thought anyone would go through the trouble of getting so many people involved in a made up story just to troll on MTBR.... hmmmmm. :idea: But maybe you _are_ onto something. Don't you think it's suspicious that the injured guy hasn't responded here or posted gory pictures on the "Rider Down" injury forum? Heck, he can still type right? Very fishy.[/sarcasm]
> 
> -F


Hey, don't get mad at me just because I thought your post was stupid.


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## hellocook (Nov 5, 2006)

Saddle Up said:


> Our shop deals with three major brands of bikes, A,B, and C. All three brands had a fork recall this season.
> 
> Brand A recalled their aluminum fork with steel steer tube that was installed on their cyclocross bikes. People were just JRAing and the steer tube would snap, happened to a couple of our customers. These bikes were manufactured in 09, the problem started to show up in 2011.
> 
> ...


interesting


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

Saddle Up said:


> Our shop deals with three major brands of bikes, A,B, and C. All three brands had a fork recall this season.
> 
> Brand A recalled their aluminum fork with steel steer tube that was installed on their cyclocross bikes. People were just JRAing and the steer tube would snap, happened to a couple of our customers. These bikes were manufactured in 09, the problem started to show up in 2011.
> 
> ...


Well that is good and bad. I mean I am happy to hear this information. The down side is that I had brands A, B, and C on my list as perspective options. Now I have to start all over in my search.:madman: Perhaps I can find a shop that carries brands D, E, and F.

sorry, just had to.


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## GSJ1973 (May 8, 2011)

Saddle Up said:


> Sometimes it takes a while for a problem to surface, it's certainly not restricted to light weight carbon, steel and aluminum break also.


I think the problem is this fork has been solid and people have been riding them for over 2 years now. I see them everywhere. This particular fork failure appears to be a fluke.

One bad failure out of 4000 forks is pretty awesome from a percentage standpoint. I know of a few bike companies that probably wish they had those percentage #'s.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

You can check this government web site for bicycle related recalls.
Search
Type in bicycle


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## Saddle Up (Jan 30, 2008)

1SPD said:


> Well that is good and bad. I mean I am happy to hear this information. The down side is that I had brands A, B, and C on my list as perspective options. Now I have to start all over in my search.:madman: Perhaps I can find a shop that carries brands D, E, and F.
> 
> sorry, just had to.


no worries, brand D,E and F also have had defective forks that were recalled at some point. This is an inclusive club.


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

Saddle Up said:


> no worries, brand D,E and F also have had defective forks that were recalled at some point. This is an inclusive club.


I fully agree. I am sure that just about every company has had a problem at one point or another. Take CB pedals. People snap axles and wings all the time. Yet it seems like 7 out of 10 folks are riding them. Hell I finally broke down and bought a pair (I bought after market ti spindles for mine) to replace my 10 yr old Frogs.

Hell, I have a carbon fork and bars. I completely understand that they can fail. I am not excited about the chances of it happening to me but I guess if it does then it was just my time. I do make it a point to check mine out (or at least will start checking again now) prior to riding or when cleaning.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> Hey, don't get mad at me just because I thought your post was stupid.


Actually you said "brilliant".

-F


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

Rivet said:


> let me re-phrase that, rigid forks are stupid on a mountain bike. I personally know of three people who have spent time in the hospital when their rigid mountain bike fork failed. Two steel, one aluminum. I remember back before suspension bending at least two rigid forks a year until Bontrager/Tange came out with their bolt on crown forks. If you ride above walking pace on anything other than buffed singletrack and or your a fatty you have no business riding a rigid fork offroad.


imho "stupid" is making blanket statements like this.

perhaps your skills do not allow you to ride a rigid fork above walking pace on anything other than buff singletrack, but there are plenty of us who ride the gnar-gnar very rapidly on rigid forks; often faster than the people with "real" forks (and sometimes a rear shock too!  ) on their bikes.

ride with one of these folks and you'll find you have no business making such stupid statements. :thumbsup:

fwiw although i'm really hard on stuff and have broken numerous frames (two to catastrophic failure) and have bent and cracked several forks (steel, al, & cf) I have yet to break a rigid fork to the point of catastrophic failure.

(hint: "your" is a possessive pronoun while "you're" is the contraction of the word "you" and "are". before throwing the word "stupid" around it's best to make sure one doesn't appear to be the same.  )


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

Mr.Magura said:


> They replaced the forks.
> 
> I agree it's no fun for a company to recall an entire series, but I guess the guys at RockShox who counts nickels and dimes did the math, and it turned out to be cheaper than the lawsuits for not doing so when knowing the series had shown faulty forks.
> 
> Magura


Rockshox also had a recall back in 1998. They recalled all the indy's that were sold OEM. Probably hundreds of thousands of them. None of them actually failed - but the safety tabs at the drops outs didn't stick out very far.

They sent out new lowers to all the fork owners and paid to have the forks rebuilt.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

Andy Pancroft said:


> Wow!! Recall is a pretty big step and, could potentially be financially devastating to a company!! What did they end up doing....repairing, retro-fitting, replacing, discontinuing??


Umm..my entire Jet 9 frame and every other one out there (first generation) was recalled. First the linkages were shattering and then the rear triangles were breaking.

Niner is still around.

Not bashing...just reminding..


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## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

monogod said:


> @1SPD: you mentioned having to start the selection process over again, but i would suggest just putting on the replacement fork from niner. the guys at niner are stand up guys who make killer stuff that they stand behind. imho the chances of another one failing on you outside of rider error would be infinitesimal at best.
> 
> imho "stupid" is making blanket statements like this.
> 
> ...


It's been my experience that pretty much anybody that tells you they are good at something probably isn't. Also "Shift" before typing a letter makes it a capital, you should try it sometime.


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## Niner Bikes (Dec 9, 2004)

Hi there -

We have one more update, we have officially been contacted by the rider's attorney, and now that this is a legal issue, we have been advised to cease comment on public forums regarding this incident. I hope that you all can understand our silence from this point forward.

We ask that you respect the rider's rights and refrain from personal attacks.

We appreciate your support,
The Niner Bikes Team


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## Niner Bikes (Dec 9, 2004)

double post.


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## Bulldozer27 (Sep 16, 2005)

The mods should lock both Niner carbon fork threads now. The word "attorney" is now officially part of the matter, and almost certainly this thread will degenerate further.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

Niner Bikes said:


> Hi there -
> 
> We have one more update, we have officially been contacted by the rider's attorney, and now that this is a legal issue, we have been advised to cease comment on public forums regarding this incident. I hope that you all can understand our silence from this point forward.
> 
> ...


I was assuming that is why you guys have been fairly absent the whole time in this forum. Makes perfect sense...

It was just a matter of time unfortunately. It is what it is. Let the attorneys battle it out. It's a bummer for BOTH sides really:eekster:


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

Bulldozer27 said:


> The mods should lock both Niner carbon fork threads now. The word "attorney" is now officially part of the matter, and almost certainly this thread will degenerate further.


+1 Yep. Correct. Ditto.


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## hellocook (Nov 5, 2006)

wow. not much of a surprise though. still wondering why all this hype here if it is turning into a legal case anyhow.

dito, lock these threads.


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

Niner Bikes said:


> Hi there -
> 
> We have one more update, we have officially been contacted by the rider's attorney, and now that this is a legal issue, we have been advised to cease comment on public forums regarding this incident. I hope that you all can understand our silence from this point forward.
> 
> ...


what a dcik! Sounds like you guys wanted to help, too.

You know what you call 1,000 attorneys all given concrete boots and dumped at sea?

A good start!


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## mvi (Jan 15, 2004)

Why on earth did the OP start this thread if it was going to be a legal case?


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## iheartbicycles (Mar 14, 2008)

mvi said:


> Why on earth did the OP start this thread if it was going to be a legal case?


From what I've seen of legal cases involving cyclists suing a manufacturer over broken carbon fiber parts, is almost every time the cyclist did something wrong to cause the failure.

People don't realize that they ofter overtighten carbon components, or they create small stress fractures by doing stuff that normally wouldn't harm metal components.

Or, in one case I know of - a cyclist ran his carbon road bike into his garage, didn't notice any damage and continued riding the bike. One broken clavicle later, and they guys attorney is suing the company.

And unfortunately, these sorts of cases can be costly enough to force the companies out of business.

If it were me, I'd contact niner via telephone and explain the situation and ask them to check out the fork and maybe help pay the medical bills.


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## Ottoreni (Jan 27, 2004)

*Irony*



iheartbicycles said:


> From what I've seen of legal cases involving cyclists suing a manufacturer over broken carbon fiber parts, is almost every time the cyclist did something wrong to cause the failure.
> 
> People don't realize that they ofter overtighten carbon components, or they create small stress fractures by doing stuff that normally wouldn't harm metal components.
> 
> ...


My feeling is Niner will not get a chance to see this fork until the attorney's firm has its "specialist" look at the fork and file a favorable report.

If it does end up being an installation issue, it would be just that Niner go after the attorney's firm for all legal cost, because that is where the money is at.

Either way, the rider needs to look out for his long term interests because he may have long term damage.

Hope all ends well.


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## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

I'm a idiot. All the times I've been injured mountain biking secondary to parts failure and I didn't make any money. Well thats not true. I crashed. Although, I had the drop outs on two Manipoos snap off. Wheel goes one way. The bike and myself went along another vector. But I wasn't hurt. Manitou was over joyed because I didn't sue them. Ok. I'm giving fair warning.

Thomson, Ventana, Santa Cruz, Pivot, Rock Shox, WTB, Panaracer, Bontrager, Ragley, Syntace, Cannondale, Stans, DT, Giro - all of you are on notice. Especially Niner.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Was it foreseeable that carbon graphite products can crack and break catastrophically?

Did the owner inspect thoroughly before every ride, for structural failure? Of course not. 

The answer is yes... it's a given, if flexed enough cycles, carbon fiber products will fail. Ask anyone with graphite fly rods, or graphite shafted golf clubs.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

RandyBoy said:


> Was it foreseeable that carbon graphite products can crack and break catastrophically?
> 
> Did the owner inspect thoroughly before every ride, for structural failure? Of course not.
> 
> The answer is yes... it's a given, if flexed enough cycles, carbon fiber, aluminum, steel, and titanium products will fail.


Fixed it for ya.


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## Andy Pancroft (Aug 3, 2011)

iheartbicycles said:


> what a dcik! Sounds like you guys wanted to help, too.
> 
> You know what you call 1,000 attorneys all given concrete boots and dumped at sea?
> 
> A good start!


What did the attorney say when he stepped in dog crap????

"I'm melting!!!!"


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

From Wikipedia:

Brittle materials

Brittle materials, such as concrete and carbon fiber, are characterized by failure at small strains. They often fail while still behaving in a linear elastic manner, and thus do not have a defined yield point. Because strains are low, there is negligible difference between the engineering stress and the true stress. Testing of several identical specimens will result in different failure stresses, this is due to the Weibull modulus of the brittle material.

The UTS is a common engineering parameter when design brittle members, because there is no yield point.


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

Here is the complete Wikipedia link.

Ultimate tensile strength - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Carbon Fiber does have a high ultimate strength compared to other materials used in bicycles and forks.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

mvi said:


> Why on earth did the OP start this thread if it was going to be a legal case?


The OP was not the rider/plaintiff.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

best wishes to niner for a quick and favorable resolution.


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## cm374 (Dec 19, 2008)

This thread is out of control... products fail, companies get sued all the time. Some of you act like you have a vested interest in some dudes fork breaking, when the reality is that everyone who has something to lose/gain from this has stayed out of it, as they should. Fanboys and haters, with very little in between. The truth is that none of you know what happened or why it happened, this thread is 8 pages of ******** speculation. What did I expect from the 29er forum


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## zenkem (Dec 18, 2007)

Wow, call me stupid!!! I just read this entire Thread and I can't even tell you why. I need to go for a ride and clear my mind...


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## jollybeggar (Feb 2, 2004)

Lawyers dammit, all of em a bunch damn future congressmen, and an occasional president.


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## PatrickK (Apr 26, 2007)

I think Niner nor other companies should be providing any warranty in America. I reckon user error in this case. It is quite unfortunate he was hospitalized. A week before the "accident" and only after 18 months fork was working great then it breaks. People think if something works it means do not check it, do not fix it etc...


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

PatrickK said:


> I think Niner nor other companies should be providing any warranty in America. I reckon user error in this case. It is quite unfortunate he was hospitalized. A week before the "accident" and only after 18 months fork was working great then it breaks. People think if something works it means do not check it, do not fix it etc...


 it's this attitude that brings lawyers in. If there was more respect towards others word and blind support to "pals" were not the norm maybe there would be less lawyering around.


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

mvi said:


> Why on earth did the OP start this thread if it was going to be a legal case?


the OP wasn't the rider or owner of the fork but rather a "do gooder" who wanted to warn the world about the niner fork and by his own admission WAS NOT EVEN THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

monogod said:


> the OP wasn't the rider or owner of the fork but rather a "do gooder" who wanted to warn the world about the niner fork and by his own admission WAS NOT EVEN THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED.


 he is friends w/ the rider. again, it's this kind of attitude that brought us lawyers. Why not trust his word? You don't? fine... then comes the awyer. 
Have fun on the forum while Niner and other good guys face the consequences of your attitudes


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

monogod said:


> the OP wasn't the rider or owner of the fork but rather a "do gooder" who wanted to warn the world about the niner fork and by his own admission WAS NOT EVEN THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED.


 he is friends w/ the rider. again, it's this kind of attitude that brought us lawyers. Why not trust his word? You don't? fine... then comes the awyer. 
Have fun on the forum while Niner and other good guys face the consequences of your attitudes


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

cm374 said:


> Some of you act like you have a vested interest in some dudes fork breaking, when the reality is that everyone who has something to lose/gain from this has stayed out of it, as they should. Fanboys and haters, with very little in between.


Fraid not, im 1 out of the 4499 who have bought this fork and have a great interest in what happens here.


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## racerx04 (Nov 27, 2005)

Now the rider has a lawyer... wonder if the trail where this happened will be sued also. Maybe those who have supported Niner will be forced into litigation as well. :madman:


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## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

colker1 said:


> he is friends w/ the rider. again, it's this kind of attitude that brought us lawyers. Why not trust his word? You don't? fine... then comes the awyer.
> Have fun on the forum while Niner and other good guys face the consequences of your attitudes


you missed my point ENTIRELY. the OP was NOT there. the OP did NOT eyewitness the incident. yet he posted pics, supposition, conjecture, and by his own admission "my guess" and got this train wreck of a thread started.

and as far as believing the OP let me remind you that HE WAS NOT THERE and by his own admission doesn't know that happened. do I believe the fork broke? certainly.

why not trust his word, you ask? BECAUSE HE WASN'T THERE. that's simple enough, eh?

why not trust the fork owner's word that it was a JRA incident? far too many years in both the sport and the industry as a rider, racer, and shop employee/mechanic. things break for a reason, and when it is a design flaw failure is a common occurrence which is NOT the case here.

my attitude and those like it brings in the lawyers, you say? HARDLY. here's why:

if niner was facing the consequences of my attitude their only repercussion would be to replace the fork, because my attitude is that is their ONLY liability.

because of the attitude of the fork owner niner now will have to spend money on an attorneys, legal fees, independent product tests and eval of the fork, and so on and so forth. guess who gets to pay for that? THE CONSUMER. those costs are passed along, my friend, not absorbed by the company.

apparently very unlike the OP and owner of the fork in question i realize there are consequences to partaking in an inherently dangerous activity and don't go crying to an attorney every time i break something. i once snapped a voodoo frame completely in half on a very milquetoast trail and got injured as a result. did I get a lawyer? nope. i contacted voodoo and got a new frame. did any of my friends that were not there post pictures of the broken frame along with second hand information and conjecture to warn everyone about voodoo scandium frames? nope. nor has that been the outcome for anything else i have broken, even when it resulted in personal injury.

bottom line is this: mountain biking carries an inherent risk of injury or death. if you do not want to face the possible outcome then DON'T RIDE!

had the owner of the fork been wearing a full face helmet would he have still fractured his orbital? more than likely not. yet because, while engaging in a dangerous activity, he did not choose to wear full face protection and had an accident resulting in injury to an exposed area it's not his fault and should be compensated by niner? now THAT is the kind of attitude that brings in the lawyers.

the owner of the fork engaged in an activity that carries an inerent risk of injury or death. his fork broke, AND WE DON'T KNOW WHY. did he contact niner or an attorney first? AN ATTORNEY. that is that kind of attitude that brings the lawyers in.

that type of reaction to injuries and incedents is why trails get closed for liability reasons. it's one of the reasons all types of liability insurance is sky high. and that cost is passed along to the 98% of us who take responsibility for ourselves and our choices and wouldn't sue outside of gross negligence (which that fork clearly is not).

and just like the attitude of the guy getting a lawyer over all this you try to turn it around on me for commenting that the OP wasn't even there.

well my friend... THAT is the kind of attitude that brings the lawyers in.


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## blantonator (May 6, 2007)

here's a few minute clip I filmed at fountainhead last winter. The trail has become very eroded/rooty as of late and is being completely rehabbed as we speak.


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## Tbow (Nov 22, 2006)

Very funny post...










Here's a picture of my friend's car. We rode on a well know place and suddenly the car crash. My friend was injured but alive.

Conclusion : GMC is a poor company with poor cars... No ?

You take risks all along the days of your life.
You take risks when you walk, you take risks when you sleep, you take risks when you eat, you take risks when you breathe, you take risks when you ride !

Safety standards exist to protect customers and brands against abusive behaviors.

So, Is Niner respect the laws and safety standards ? Yes. That's all.

It's not funny for your friend but it's life. Hope that he has an insurance and he can ride his bike again quickly.


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## blantonator (May 6, 2007)

Tbow said:


> Very funny post...
> 
> Here's a picture of my friend's car. We rode on a well know place and suddenly the car crash. My friend was injured but alive.
> 
> ...


If the crash was a result of a catastrophic manufacture defect in the car (front suspension failed) than GM would most certain be liable. Just saying.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

Tbow said:


> Very funny post...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Totally different scenario imo... IF you were driving along and the car simply exploded into 500 pieces, then yes, you might have a case. ..

In fact, most of us here would agree that you may want to consider bringing it to court


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## frorider (Apr 2, 2005)

blantonator said:


> here's a few minute clip I filmed at fountainhead last winter. The trail has become very eroded/rooty as of late and is being completely rehabbed as we speak.


looks like a typical XC trail, nothing particularly rough, and within the 'intended use' of how Niner markets this fork.

thx for posting.

in some of this thread there seems to be an assumption (explicit or implicit) that lightweight mtn bike components should only be ridden on smooth fireroads and pavement. of course, both in actual ride testing and in lab testing, Niner was thinking of general XC mtn bike riding when designing this fork. They do not want anyone thinking this fork is only for pavement, commuting, and smooth fire roads (OMG! A 3 inch rock!).


----------



## monogod (Feb 10, 2006)

blantonator said:


> If the crash was a result of a catastrophic manufacture defect in the car (front suspension failed) than GM would most certain be liable. Just saying.





rydbyk said:


> Totally different scenario imo... IF you were driving along and the car simply exploded into 500 pieces, then yes, you might have a case. ..
> 
> In fact, most of us here would agree that you may want to consider bringing it to court


sar·casm   [sahr-kaz-uhm] 
noun
1.
harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2.
a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark.


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Exactly*



blantonator said:


> If the crash was a result of a catastrophic manufacture defect in the car (front suspension failed) than GM would most certain be liable. Just saying.


If I took some medication for my arthritis, and it causes some other crazy disease, is it my fault for taking the risk of taking that med?

Why is it that the folks who wave the flag and cry freedom for all want to take away my freedom to sue somebody who was negligent. To them, a corporation's right to make money is more important than the people they might harm in the process. Dollars are more important than people? Seriously? 

Not saying Niner is negligent at all... just saying I want the right to find out in a courtroom if it comes to that.

You talk about risk, but there are degrees of risk. The reason I don't play Russian roulette is that there is a 1 in 6 chance I won't live. I assume that riding my bike is relatively safe, and it has passed standardized testing and won't knock my teeth out while riding down a smooth trail. Okay, if I do a 20 foot drop to flat and it fails, that is no question my fault. I was abusing way beyond what it beyond what it was designed for. If it turns out that the bike company in question (again, not saying Niner has done any of this) was falsifying test records, or didn't test the product properly, or knew the product was defective and would fail but didn't do anything about notifying the customers, then they are liable.

Every case has little details that can make it swing one way or another to large degrees. I think everybody has a right to get to the bottom of those details.

While some of you folks bag on the injured owner of the fork for lawyering up, keep in mind he might see a month or two of lost work and $50k, $100k, or more in medical bills that might send him into financial disaster. If that fork failed on me like that, I would be pretty pished too. He has a perfect right to seek compensation if he feels he was wronged. I mean, companies also keep lawyers on retainer and product liability insurance for just such an event. All he was doing was riding his bike on an XC trail.

In Niner's case, they are a stand-up company. I would be extremely surprised if they were actually 100% at fault.


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*wups*

double post.


----------



## Adroit Rider (Oct 26, 2004)

I had a DT Swiss hub fail on me but I rode it for nearly a year until complete failure. I was involved in a pile up where I got rear ended with no where for my bike to go. The result was a very small crack in the rear hub flange. The crack grew a little bit every ride for nearly a year and I started to notice brake rub, and then a clunky feeling to the rear end. Finally the crack in the flange spread to the hub body and the hub was toast.

My point, JRA didn't cause the failure. Something was wrong with the fork before the ride. Could have been from the factory or from a pile up at a race a year ago...


----------



## deuxdiesel (Jan 14, 2007)

Even more importantly- what kind of dog is that Blatonator? Fine lookin' pup.


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*nevermind....*

nm
123456


----------



## qbert2000 (Jul 30, 2008)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> MTBR Guidelines to be used whenever someone posts a thread about a component failure:
> 
> 1. Assume it was installed incorrectly.
> 2. Assume the rider is unskilled.
> ...


best post i've seen in a while:thumbsup:


----------



## qbert2000 (Jul 30, 2008)

Tbow said:


> Very funny post...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


wow, pretty close to the op's buddy's scenario


----------



## chiplikestoridehisbike (Aug 8, 2007)

It was the truck owners fault. Those fake air scoops he put on the hood caused the truck to fail.


----------



## LowUFO (May 18, 2007)

^ winner. He couldn't see the forest for the hoodscoop was blocking his windscreen.


----------



## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

I don't believe that this is necessarily true:
"MTBR Guidelines to be used whenever someone posts a thread about a component failure:

1. Assume it was installed incorrectly.
2. Assume the rider is unskilled.
3. Assume it was abused.
4. Point out that other similar components fail too.
5. Express doubt because you have one "and it has never happened to you".
6. Ask for sh1tloads of pics or other evidence. If the OP fails to do this, assume that is evidence of dishonesty.
7. Give the OP the 3rd degree in an attempt to discover "lies" or other inconsistencies in their story.
8. Simply refuse to believe it.
9. Rat-hole the thread with pointless technicalities in an attempt to prove god-knows-what.
10. Shoot the messenger and ask why they want to bash the manufacturer."

Unless, of course, the failed component reported on was made by a paying mtbr sponsor or large ad runner. I don't think Niner is either of those, are they?


----------



## wedge (Jun 24, 2006)

Ray Raton said:


> Unless, of course, the failed component reported on was made by a paying mtbr sponsor or large ad runner. I don't think Niner is either of those, are they?


are you serious?

Yes, they are!
what ad banner do you have at the top of the page?


----------



## Chris_T (Feb 21, 2005)

wedge said:


> are you serious?
> 
> Yes, they are!
> what ad banner do you have at the top of the page?


Sar-chasm


----------



## Jobin (Apr 22, 2009)

Tbow said:


> Very funny post...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Makes me laugh someone would even think this is comparable. Try your wit somewhere else. And to start your post "Very funny post"? To the OP, I hope your friend comes through with flying colors. Take care.


----------



## Licketysplit (Oct 24, 2011)

racerx04 said:


> I'd also like to hear more about this, I'm considering one for my next build.


yup


----------



## sonett iii (Jun 1, 2009)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> MTBR Guidelines to be used whenever someone posts a thread about a component failure:
> 
> 1. Assume it was installed incorrectly.
> 2. Assume the rider is unskilled.
> ...


Mods please sticky this


----------



## fatcat (Mar 11, 2006)

stay away from carbon forks unless you're the type who would never ever doubt the strength of carbon (like weight weenie roadies) 

stay healthy and quit bickering. its not going to help get this dude any better or make Niner
discontinue the carbon fork


----------



## phsycle (Apr 14, 2011)

Sorry to bring this back up, but...

Just curious to know what ended up happening with Niner? Did they come to any conclusions as to why the fork broke?


----------



## gfs69 (Aug 16, 2007)

No, but apparently the weight weenie chop stick in question was not approved by the manufucturer for buffet duty.


----------



## Caffeine Powered (Mar 31, 2005)

phsycle said:


> Sorry to bring this back up, but...
> 
> Just curious to know what ended up happening with Niner? Did they come to any conclusions as to why the fork broke?


My guess would be they're waiting for the lawyers to finish their cage match to the death. It's only been 6 months since this BS started so it's going to be a while.


----------



## Moementum (Oct 21, 2006)

On a related note a road cyclist recently was killed when his carbon fork failed.

Bicycle Retailer and Industry News


----------



## Lenny7 (Sep 1, 2008)

I didn't read this whole thread, but I have been reading some of the chinese carbon frame and rim threads. If this happened to one of those "cheap" chinese products these niner fanboys would be the first to say, "you get what you pay for." but when it happens to an overpriced niner product, it's operator error or whatever. I feel bad for the rider and hope he's okay.


----------



## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Moementum said:


> On a related note a road cyclist recently was killed when his carbon fork failed.
> 
> Bicycle Retailer and Industry News


A recalled fork if memory serves me. Kids if your fork gets recalled send it back.


----------



## TR (Jan 12, 2004)

AZ.MTNS said:


> A recalled fork if memory serves me. Kids if your fork gets recalled send it back.


Yes.
Recalled in 2008 I believe.
I feel terrible for him and his loved ones so dont think I am trying to blame him in any way shape or form for the failure but somehow he, his mechanic and all of his riding buddies managed to miss the fact that he was riding on a recalled fork for 4 years.


----------



## PatrickK (Apr 26, 2007)

Moementum said:


> On a related note a road cyclist recently was killed when his carbon fork failed.
> 
> Bicycle Retailer and Industry News


Holy S...... That is absolutely tragic. How do you tell if your carbon fork is fine or not?


----------



## modifier (May 11, 2007)

It probably broke and caused the crash, particularly since it was a recall fork, but the story does say it may have broken and caused the crash. It could have broken during the crash too. Like he fell down and slid into a curb or other immovable object hitting at the front. It's hard to say with so little information. 

As far as being able to tell if it's going to break, if it does so at the steer tube crown union (guess) it's probably pretty hard to spot, unless it starts to feel loose.


----------



## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

PatrickK said:


> Holy S...... That is absolutely tragic. How do you tell if your carbon fork is fine or not?


Yes, very sad indeed. Kind of a freak occurrence imo.. Millions of carbon forks being abused daily and rarely do they break (no I don't need photos of broken forks )

I guess you can take it out of your head tube and take a look at the steer tube... Do you have the 2008 Cervelo fork in question? They describe it in the article very well...

.02


----------



## FoCo29er (Dec 5, 2010)

Maybe we should start a new thread for the recalled cervelo fork.


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

Moementum said:


> On a related note a road cyclist recently was killed when his carbon fork failed.
> 
> Bicycle Retailer and Industry News


... not to mention, the article says there was a possibility of collision with something in the road or another vehicle, and they were still investigating.


----------



## PatrickK (Apr 26, 2007)

rydbyk said:


> Yes, very sad indeed. Kind of a freak occurrence imo.. Millions of carbon forks being abused daily and rarely do they break (no I don't need photos of broken forks )
> 
> I guess you can take it out of your head tube and take a look at the steer tube... Do you have the 2008 Cervelo fork in question? They describe it in the article very well...
> 
> .02


No but I have a Niner, Ritchey Comp carbon and a Trigon fork. My Trigon makes a creaking sound from time to time but I looked at the steerer and apart from an even surface around the crown which has an additional layer on top of carbon I have not noticed anything. It is really hard to see anything. It might be Cane Creek headset. I use this particular bike for road biking.


----------



## DLtoker (Oct 27, 2010)

Well, now I'm nervous!


----------



## TR (Jan 12, 2004)

DLtoker said:


> Well, now I'm nervous!


Find a different sport that is safer.


----------



## Professed (Sep 25, 2007)

This post is a nonsense. Time to shut it down. I don't work for Niner nor sell their stuff and of the 5 people I know with their forks they are massively strong. We do drops, enduro races, rock step and as I have said before I run into a concrete carpark. Fork is perfect.


----------



## esundell90 (Dec 20, 2009)

Wow, hope he gets better. And this is why I don't really want to ride carbon fibre anything. Steel just bends, usually won't snap!!


----------



## TR (Jan 12, 2004)

Nice to see the gutless anonymous Rep posters are at it again.
Get some balls and say what you want to say in the thread so that I have a way to reply.


----------



## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

TR said:


> Nice to see the gutless anonymous Rep posters are at it again.
> Get some balls and say what you want to say in the thread so that I have a way to reply.


Nah. Even though you are way down under, I'm afraid that you may call me out on in regard to my own stupidity.

I've been riding my Niner fork in rocky stuff and I weigh 225lbs. No drops. It loosens from time to time, but otherwise, no problems. I do worry occasionally, but I had those rare concerns with my WaltWorks.


----------



## Cobra45 (Jul 19, 2011)

hope I don't end up like your buddy after buying this. But i'm still super pumped to try it


----------



## Hundun (Jun 2, 2010)

So the ugly, idiotic, status symbol forks are prone to breakage.

How so very 








*Catastrophic!*

Get well soon, dude.​


----------



## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

I'm gonna try mine out on trail for the first time this weekend. I hope it will take a 2.4 Ardent. 
Also, I hope that it don't.....well, you know.


----------



## [wahoo] (Nov 21, 2011)

Glad I went all steel with my rigid...


----------



## OneBadWagon (Mar 29, 2007)

[wahoo] said:


> Glad I went all steel with my rigid...


Yup, Steel forks never bend or break!


----------



## DonDeeBoogie (May 16, 2012)

Ouch that must of hurt!


----------



## esundell90 (Dec 20, 2009)

OneBadWagon said:


> Yup, Steel forks never bend or break!


I've seen one bend, but it didn't break. Thankfully it wasn't my fork, and the bikes fork bent after the rider bailed and the bike took a tumble into a river canyon, lol.


----------



## [wahoo] (Nov 21, 2011)

OneBadWagon said:


> Yup, Steel forks never bend or break!


Yes they bend, but I have never heard/seen one snap off. I think it would have to be a pretty big failure for them to break completely in two.

Hope the OP's friend is alright.

On the topic of Niner's reputation, it seems like they have done everything to assess the issue. 1 extreme failure out of 4500 forks that are out there seems like it was one of those strange random occurrences. Niner is on my list of dream bikes.


----------



## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2004)

Ray Raton said:


> I'm gonna try mine out on trail for the first time this weekend. I hope it will take a 2.4 Ardent.
> Also, I hope that it don't.....well, you know.


The Ardent will fit. Actually, it fits really easily. There's plenty of room to go wider. Great tire, BTW.

Hopefully I'll get some negative rep for posting and liking my Niner carbon fork. Like I really care. Why was this system even started? If you can't tell in a couple of posts whether or not the other guy/gal knows what they're talking about, you deserve to be given bad advice.


----------



## Andy Pancroft (Aug 3, 2011)

Know I'm gonna get flamed for this but, after reading thru this thread, I noticed that the guys who claim to know the guy so well and how well he takes care of his gear, etc. all have posted only in this thread - three or four posts total. Just seems to me given the fact they all intimately know this exceptionally skilled rider who, "takes better care for his equip. than most of us do our children" they must all be ardent Mtn bikers but none have ever posted on MTBR until this thread appears!!!??

Just sayin'!!


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

AP,
If you read this entire thread than you know that the OP was NOT the rider, and that this has gone to litigation, so few, if any are posting. Ride Fountainhead weekly, do not know the rider personally, yet, know of him through others. The guys posting, that you've brought into question - did so to deflect the abusive comments made, just like ^^^ and are not active on this forum, but club members that build/support area trails.

Unfortunately, some MTBR users have a reputation for attacking the rider, and refusing to believe that it's even _possible_ for there to be an issue with their brand of bike or part. It suucks to be interrogated, and much more so when seriously hurt.

Today's practice of "blame the patient" makes the one harmed to prove their innocence beyond a shadow of doubt. This reduces many cases from going to trial, and enables doctors to both avoid defending their actions, and manage their skyrocketing insurance premiums. Ask one.

Before you jump on the "it must be the riders fault" bandwagon, please consider how you'd feel while in the hospital, reading those d-bag comments that target you, or your hurt friend. :skep:

Yes, shiite does happen while JRA, and we all accept risks every time we ride. To manage those risks, all we can do is to maintain our bikes, and control.


----------



## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Flyin_W said:


> AP,
> If you read this entire thread than you know that the OP was NOT the rider, and that this has gone to litigation, so few, if any are posting. Ride Fountainhead weekly, do not know the rider personally, yet, know of him through others. The guys posting, that you've brought into question - did so to deflect the abusive comments made, just like ^^^ and are not active on this forum, but club members that build/support area trails.
> 
> Unfortunately, some MTBR users have a reputation for attacking the rider, and refusing to believe that it's even _possible_ for there to be an issue with their brand of bike or part. It suucks to be interrogated, and much more so when seriously hurt.
> ...


Did he jump on a bandwagon?
You're rushing to a bit of a conclusion there.
At the same time, CoJ, who wasn't even there, started this thread with a couple of shocking pictures, almost exactly *zero* information, and a "what do you need to know?" attitude... exactly the kind of sympathy-seeking thread that blasts manufacturers undeservedly for no apparent reason. He went on to falsely accuse me of lying for posting a picture of a buddy of mine's steel fork that snapped. A lot of the BS precipitated from his repeated d00shy comments.
AND... if *you* follow the timeline of the thread, you'll see that people who know the rider started *****ing about negative comments before any had even happened.
This is not a "blame the patient" situation... it is one in which a d0uch3bag posted some shocking photos with almost no information and fanned the flames repeatedly. There are actually very very few negative posts directed toward the rider in the thread.
That's why these threads are stupid and unecessary. Zero good was served, nobody will know how it ended or even what happened, and a bunch of BS and flaming went down uselessly in the interim.


----------



## DrDon (Sep 25, 2004)

How did my profession get dragged into this?


----------



## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

DrDon said:


> How did my profession get dragged into this?


Just face it, it's all your fault, perhaps counting out WW2 and maybe 1 of the latest tsunamis 

Magura  / whom also shares a related profession.


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

*blame the patient*



PoisonDartFrog said:


> MTBR Guidelines to be used whenever someone posts a thread about a component failure:
> 
> 1. Assume it was installed incorrectly.
> 2. Assume the rider is unskilled.
> ...


mf, 
Agree this thread is a complete cluster due to the OP not being the rider, editing his posts, and his replies. 
By AP's post 194, and questioning the validity/integrity of those that posted in the riders defense he was boarding.
Check posts 78,124,125,137 most follow comments and are by older mtbr members.
Got no dog in this fight, yet ride rigid, and Fh is close to home.


----------



## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

DrDon said:


> How did my profession get dragged into this?


Wait.....aren't you a Chiropractor? If so, you don't count! 
Just kidding: some of my best _friends_ are DC's.

As to the niner fork, I rode mine on a rocky trail at altitude today for the first time. I used a Spinergy Xyclone Disc wheel (plush) and a Maxxis Ardent 2.4 tire, inflated to 28 psi (also plush.) But that is a trail I just ROLL on my Joker, without even feeling hardly anything. Today, on a 853 steel frame, with those plush wheels and tires, the front end of that bike just beat me UP. It was fast, and light, but it HURT.

Don't _never _let _nobody_ tell you them Niner forks are flexy!


----------



## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Flyin_W said:


> mf,
> Agree this thread is a complete cluster due to the OP not being the rider, editing his posts, and his replies.
> By AP's post 194, and questioning the validity/integrity of those that posted in the riders defense he was boarding.
> Check posts 78,124,125,137 most follow comments and are by older mtbr members.
> Got no dog in this fight, yet ride rigid, and Fh is close to home.


all good. :thumbsup:


----------



## Andy Pancroft (Aug 3, 2011)

meltingfeather said:


> Did he jump on a bandwagon?
> You're rushing to a bit of a conclusion there.


What I was gonna say!!! I was just making an observation!!!


----------



## jeff (Jan 13, 2004)

Hate to break it to you but MTBR is not the center of the MTB universe. Post count, membership duration and rep are not directly related to saddle time or experience. 



Flyin_W said:


> AP,
> If you read this entire thread than you know that the OP was NOT the rider, and that this has gone to litigation, so few, if any are posting. Ride Fountainhead weekly, do not know the rider personally, yet, know of him through others. The guys posting, that you've brought into question - did so to deflect the abusive comments made, just like ^^^ and are not active on this forum, but club members that build/support area trails.
> 
> Unfortunately, some MTBR users have a reputation for attacking the rider, and refusing to believe that it's even _possible_ for there to be an issue with their brand of bike or part. It suucks to be interrogated, and much more so when seriously hurt.
> ...


----------



## AMCAT (Sep 10, 2009)

jeff said:


> Hate to break it to you but MTBR is not the center of the MTB universe. Post count, membership duration and rep are not directly related to saddle time or experience.


Sooooooooo freaking true !!!


----------



## Mojo Troll (Jun 3, 2004)

Hopefully the rider has made a full recovery and is riding strong again.

Would'nt surprise me if the OP, CoJ is a party in the letigations. What were they thinking.


----------



## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

jeff said:


> Hate to break it to you but MTBR is not the center of the MTB universe. Post count, membership duration and rep are not directly related to saddle time or experience.


You may be right. Probably best to reply to AP, not I, who implied this concept. 
To me, your moniker (Stokeless Azzhat) clearly conveys both your viewpoint, and net value.


----------



## Fuglio (Jul 15, 2011)

I dont have anything to add but that didnt keep anyone else from posting.


----------



## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

jeff said:


> Hate to break it to you but MTBR is not the center of the MTB universe. Post count, membership duration and rep are not directly related to saddle time or experience.


uh... that was part of his point. :skep:


----------



## boude (Nov 18, 2010)

Please, can I install with carbon Niner fork one CrankBrithers Iodine 3 stem or Cobalt 3 stem ?


----------



## anthonyk (Feb 15, 2012)

My installation instructions say no wedge clamp style stems, so the Iodine 3 isn't an option. The clamps on the Cobalt seem like they'd work fine.

I'd suggest starting a new thread for other questions about the fork, rather than bringing this thread back to life.


----------



## CS2 (Jul 24, 2007)

How is it that a thread on a broken fork actually has gone 12 pages? Come on people, parts break. It's no big deal.


----------



## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

CS2 said:


> How is it that a thread on a broken fork actually has gone 12 pages? Come on people, parts break. It's no big deal.


Not when parts break and then you die.


----------



## Adroit Rider (Oct 26, 2004)

I am afraid to mount up my Flyxii 541g rigid fork because of this thread.

Not if, but when...


----------



## PatrickK (Apr 26, 2007)

Adroit Rider said:


> I am afraid to mount up my Flyxii 541g rigid fork because of this thread.
> 
> Not if, but when...


It is up to you. I did over a 1000 miles on my Trigon fork but on the road. I would not feel comfortable bombing downhill on a carbon fork with a carbon steerer.

You should have tried Ritchey Pro carbon 29 fork with an aluminum steerer. I like it a lot better. Niner is stiff and flexes around brake area which I do not like.


----------



## Kaizer (Jul 19, 2010)

I bought the NINER fork, saw this thread and got spooked out for two months. Finally installed it and maiden ride yesterday. It was soooooooooooo good!


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

It's interesting that when I started talking about a niner carbon fork, this thread was immediately pointed out to me. I sent the person who pointed me to this thread the following video, and they suddenly decided they may have to rethink their stance on carbon components.


And I can't post the video because I don't have ten posts. :madman:

Any who, it's a pink bike video shot at santa cruz. It's carbon vs aluminum. Look it up. Carbon is better than aluminum, but haters gonna hate.


----------



## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Cotharyus said:


> It's interesting that when I started talking about a niner carbon fork, this thread was immediately pointed out to me. I sent the person who pointed me to this thread the following video, and they suddenly decided they may have to rethink their stance on carbon components.
> 
> And I can't post the video because I don't have ten posts. :madman:
> 
> Any who, it's a pink bike video shot at santa cruz. It's carbon vs aluminum. Look it up. Carbon is better than aluminum, but haters gonna hate.


:thumbsup:


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Impressive!*



meltingfeather said:


> :thumbsup:


Did anybody else wince that they didn't wear safety glasses during all of this? I spend a lot of time in oil refineries, and there will be no shortage of people telling you to put your glasses on if you forget.


----------



## modifier (May 11, 2007)

That test totally shows that carbon sucks dude. Right? Fersure.

Actually I think that video should be required viewing for anyone to be able to post on MTBR.


----------



## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Yeah, it did seem like to me they should have some eye protection, but then I'm the guy who wears glasses and puts on a full face shield anytime I do something that might result in small flying chips or bits of stuff when I'm working in the shop. Thanks for posting that for me meltingfeather.


----------



## bt (Nov 24, 2007)

would love to see the same test with a chinese frame that are being talked about lately.


----------



## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

modifier said:


> That test totally shows that carbon sucks dude. Right? Fersure.
> 
> Actually I think that video should be required viewing for anyone to be able to post on MTBR.


I wished my $160 carbon brake levers were only as strong as the frames in the video... Luckily, epoxy can make carbon look like new for resale *tee-hee*  . Here's hoping the $40 aluminum ones that I replaced them with will hold up

*edit* I NEVER SOLD THE LEVERS!! My original writeup made it sound like I repaired the carbon levers and sold them. I was being sarcastic as I think being able to repair carbon to look like new is a downside for the used market. I never sold the levers and never would do that. Anyway, sorry for the confusion. I work odd hours and post on here when I am half asleep sometimes. I thought  meant sarcasm, my bad.


----------



## bt (Nov 24, 2007)

FireLikeIYA said:


> I wished my $160 carbon brake levers were only as strong as the frames in the video... Luckily, epoxy can make carbon look like new for resale *tee-hee* . Here's hoping the $40 aluminum ones that I replaced them with will hold up.


what are you referring to?


----------



## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

bt said:


> what are you referring to?


Sorry, I was replying to Modifier. His remark lacked a little perspective on individuals love/hate relationships with CF. He thinks people should see a propaganda video on why CF is superior so they can repeat to others on why it is so... or else they can't have an opinion. WTF?... anyway I got sucked in and replied to his remark.


----------



## fatcat (Mar 11, 2006)

I had a used carbon fiber GT STS in which there was a hairline crack on the alloy part of the
head tube. So I try destroying the frame with an ax. Then with a sledgehammer.
It was almost impossible to destroy.

Finally after several blows with the sledgehammer, the top tube buckled and cracked. So I don't know about this story with the fork, it looks
worse than when I bashed my CF frame with the sledgehammer.

ps--when destroying a frame, make sure to put a vise on the floor and have it
grip the BB area for a solid upright position. Wear goggles or sunglasses and don't hit your foot.


----------



## modifier (May 11, 2007)

FireLikeIYA said:


> Sorry, I was replying to Modifier. His remark lacked a little perspective on individuals love/hate relationships with CF. He thinks people should see a propaganda video on why CF is superior so they can repeat to others on why it is so... or else they can't have an opinion. WTF?... anyway I got sucked in and replied to his remark.


I didn't get to see what you wrote but it seems that it was not supportive.

Opinion is whether or not you like broccoli. No one can tell you that you are wrong and that broccoli tastes good if you don't like it personally.

When executed properly carbon based composite materials offer an advantage over traditional metals that goes beyond opinion.

The majority of the flagship frames from the big companies and the bikes most top athletes race (on and off road) are carbon composite these days.

Propaganda implies that the information given is not based on truth and is only provided to mislead someone. How is the testing shown in the video falsely representing the strength of carbon vs aluminum?

The only drawback at this point is cost and limited accessibility to the technology for the small builder. Cost will come down in time with market saturation. Small guys with have to be content with metal for a while.

The reason I said people should watch the video is it pretty clearly dispels any possible argument that carbon fiber isn't strong, as is voiced repeatedly in forums. If people still think there is room for debate I give up and won't beat the dead horse any more.


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## FireLikeIYA (Mar 15, 2009)

modifier said:


> I didn't get to see what you wrote but it seems that it was not supportive.
> 
> Opinion is whether or not you like broccoli. No one can tell you that you are wrong and that broccoli tastes good if you don't like it personally.
> 
> ...


You have several good points and I am not in total disagreement with you. I agree that the video is very convincing and does prove certain aspects of CF are superior to Al but I don't believe that it is a tell all. I just believe that cheaper materials might fit certain applications better than carbon and provide longer life. CF for the main triangle of a short link FS bike, sure... CF would be superior (although, for me, it doesn't make sense for the rear triangle). CF for a seatpost, handlbar or forks.... maybe not the best application. I am not a hater of CF as I think it is great but I also know that "stronger" isn't a material property. Besides the "extra care" that must be given to CF parts I also question the QC in the production of the parts. With metal in the assembly process it is easier to determine when an issue arises. Maybe the heat on the weld wasn't high enough... well, you can determine what frames where effected by it. In my opinion, regarding CF, a defect in a frame is more likely to be completely independent of all the other frames in the same batch. You wont know until it fails and then how do you prove it wasn't user error? Just look at different manufacturer warranties on CF parts compared to their Al counterparts and I think you will get my drift. If CF is really superior then why are the warranties 1/3 the length of the same manufacturers Al version? Just my $.02.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

I've been using carbon fiber forks, frames, seatposts, stems, bars, cranksets and brake levers since they were available for bikes and I have never had any issues or "extra care" associated with them. I have a 2005 FS bike that is almost all carbon except the wheels and shock and it is still holding up just fine including the rear triangle and that is old technology by now. Carbon rims are now all the rage if you can afford them.

I've never heard of warranties being shorter for carbon stuff than for aluminum from the same manufacturer, but I'll take your word for it. I can't explain that if it is true and it's probably not a good idea on their part if they are trying to instill confidence in a new(ish) material. 

Let's check in again in 20 years and see where it's at. I bet you won't see much metal by that point left on bikes except in low end.


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## HOV (Apr 16, 2012)

modifier said:


> How is the testing shown in the video falsely representing the strength of carbon vs aluminum?


Man I've typed out two very thorough responses so far, and they've been obliterated by some auto page refresh thing. Suck.

In a nutshell, the video compares the resistance of two _frame designs_ to forces in certain directions.

To better demonstrate the strength of carbon vs aluminum, you'd need to apply the same force to two samples of the materials of the same dimensions. Though the frames looked similar, they were probably not of the same dimensions, thus the video was probably misleading.

Stress = (force)/(unit area). All we saw was a measure of the force.

To strictly answer the question of "what material is stronger", we'd first have to choose what kind of strength we care about (ultimate tensile, yield, endurance limit, hardness, etc), then take two material samples of equal dimensions and apply force to them in a way that is meaningful.

For instance, if we care about ultimate tensile strength we'd select a tube of carbon fiber and a tube of aluminum of equal dimensions, mount them in a test machine in the same manner, and pull them apart, noting the force required to do so. Knowing the area of both samples, we'd be able to say that the ultimate yield strength of X is greater than that of Y.

The video clearly shows that one carbon fiber frame is stronger in those tests than another aluminum frame, but it does not show that carbon fiber is "stronger" than aluminum.

I think all materials used for bikes are cool, but stress-strain curves are indisputable. Steel tends to have predictable elastic and plastic deformation properties. When stressed past its yield point and starts to deform, steel actually gets harder for a little while (this is called "strain hardening") then proceeds to break later on down the stress-strain curve.

Composites, as we have seen, don't respond to stress in this same way, they just tend to fail suddenly when stressed past a certain limit. They don't really have well defined yield points.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

HOV said:


> Man I've typed out two very thorough responses so far, and they've been obliterated by some auto page refresh thing. Suck.
> 
> In a nutshell, the video compares the resistance of two _frame designs_ to forces in certain directions.
> 
> ...


the test wasn't meant to be a scientifically bulletproof demonstration of relative material properties.
if you put two tubes of equal dimension in a test rig and break them, the obvious and very relevant question is, "what the hell does that have to do with my bike frame?"
while your comments aren't completely lacking in fact, i think they are a little eggheady and out of touch with the context. for instance, since geometry and layup design plays an enormous role in the structural performance of carbon fiber elements, would the results of a test you suggest be anything other than completely useless from a mountain biking perspective?
this from a licensed professional engineer who TA'd materials lab in grad school. :thumbsup:


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

I know I said I would shut up but it's hard when you guys fire back with this stuff.

So I guess the naysayers of carbon will say that the only reason that the big guys who can afford the tooling and r&d to build carbon frames are doing so on all their top of the line bikes only as a marketing ploy? People like that reasoning around here when cutting down new ideas. Might as well plug it in here too. Ha.

GT built the first commercial carbon DH frame a few years ago and reported that it was 10 times the strength for the same weight in aluminum alloy. They haven't abandoned it due to failures btw. Last year Trek came out with that sweet and light carbon DH frame. Now the 2013 Specialized top line DH bike comes in carbon. Not to mention their flagship S Works 29er XC bike. Etc across the industry. 

Go to a cat 1 road race and report back on how many metal frames you see. Or do the same at a F1 race. Or a military fighter plane. You all are saying that if they could they would all be using steel. Or titanium or aluminum, but they don't because they are fooling themselves and haven't done the "right testing". Lol. Give up! 

I'm sorry but there is nothing you tell me that is going to convince me that carbon or similar composite materials for most components on a bicycle can't be superior in all ways. Weight, strength, stiffness, shock absorption and longevity. If implemented correctly and built right. Parts of the drive train and suspension excluded, for the moment. It just ain't cheap and easy. That's all.

Enjoy your metal.


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## HOV (Apr 16, 2012)

I completely agree with your assessment of my comments being eggheady, but they're spot on in addressing the question "How is the testing shown in the video falsely representing the strength of carbon vs aluminum?" 

My answer: the video doesn't represent a comparison of the strength of carbon fiber vs aluminum, it represents the performance of two particular bicycle frame designs in a destructive testing environment. The two should not be confused.


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## HOV (Apr 16, 2012)

modifier said:


> You all are saying that if they could they would all be using steel. Or titanium or aluminum, but they don't because they are fooling themselves and haven't done the "right testing". Lol. Give up!


No, no one said that.



modifier said:


> I'm sorry but there is nothing you tell me that is going to convince me that carbon or similar composite materials for most components on a bicycle can't be superior in all ways. Weight, strength, stiffness, shock absorption and longevity. If implemented correctly and built right. Parts of the drive train and suspension excluded, for the moment.


Sure.

I've had carbon frames, carbon forks, and I currently use carbon handlebars. I think it's a great material with great potential for a lot of different applications. Heck, we're carbon-based life forms.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

Originally Posted by modifier View Post
>>You all are saying that if they could they would all be using steel. Or titanium or aluminum, but they don't because they are fooling themselves and haven't done the "right testing". Lol. Give up!<<



HOV said:


> No, no one said that.


No one said that directly, however by saying that carbon composites aren't really as good as good old metal, which is generally speaking what everyone who puts down composites is saying, they are also saying that all the big guys from F1 to a Lockheed Martin are wrong, or that a bicycle is so much more advanced than a anything else that it requires it's own world of material physics.

I'm speaking purely from a best tool for the job point of view, not about aesthetics or getting back to basics or the springy ride of a Ti frame. I'm also not saying that everyone who builds with metal should give it up. There are lots of reasons to build with metal. Primarily that it allows the little guy with a shop and a few tools to build frames.

I'm simply stating that when you get down to trying to build a better machine, like all the industries I spoke of are, then composite can't really be beat. Until they come up with something better.


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## Mr.Magura (Aug 11, 2010)

modifier said:


> Originally Posted by modifier View Post
> >>You all are saying that if they could they would all be using steel. Or titanium or aluminum, but they don't because they are fooling themselves and haven't done the "right testing". Lol. Give up!<<
> 
> No one said that directly, however by saying that carbon composites aren't really as good as good old metal, which is generally speaking what everyone who puts down composites is saying, they are also saying that all the big guys from F1 to a Lockheed Martin are wrong, or that a bicycle is so much more advanced than a anything else that it requires it's own world of material physics.
> ...


I really love that you do my usual work now. Much appreciated.

I just can't stand the armchair engineers spewing their pocket philosophy. 
Now I just don't have to get involved in the $hitstorm 

Magura


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

HOV said:


> I completely agree with your assessment of my comments being eggheady, but they're spot on in addressing the question "How is the testing shown in the video falsely representing the strength of carbon vs aluminum?"


two frames of the same model tested destructively in the same way is relevant to readers of a bike forum.
normalized performance of test specimens is of no relevance and, more importantly, no interest to 99.5% of readers here.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

A local guy who is big just broke his aluminum Niner frame after just a few months of riding. That frame has a 2 year warranty and they are replacing it. Btw it failed catastrophically with no warning and it's a good thing he was going up hill when it happened. See pic. Another friends Aluminum rear triangle failed the same way on his Specialized. All of a sudden in 2 pieces.

Unlike their 2 (TWO) year Aluminum warranty their carbon frames, bars and forks have a 5 (FIVE) year warranty. How can that be?  

>>Niner Bikes offers a five year warranty on all carbon products. This includes the Niner Air 9 Carbon frame, the Niner Carbon Fork and the Niner Flat Top carbon bar.

We are proud of the testing and care we put into the design and manufacture of our carbon products. We feel that the best way to show this is to offer a 5 year warranty period on all carbon items - our C5 program. This warranty is retroactive for all owners of Niner carbon products.<<


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## skibikeguy1 (Jun 27, 2012)

Carbon fiber is always going to be way weaker than aluminum or steel...I would NEVER trust a CF fork on a rigid bike where stress levels are amplified...if you are worried about weight go CF if you dont want your face to get rearranged on your stem stick with metal simple.......I always go for strength cause if some parts fail you could end up in a coma...so i'll pedal a few more pounds around and bunny hop the rock garden @ 30MPH thank you


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

skibikeguy1 said:


> Carbon fiber is always going to be way weaker than aluminum or steel...I would NEVER trust a CF fork on a rigid bike where stress levels are amplified...if you are worried about weight go CF if you dont want your face to get rearranged on your stem stick with metal simple.......I always go for strength cause if some parts fail you could end up in a coma...so i'll pedal a few more pounds around and bunny hop the rock garden @ 30MPH thank you


That was deep.


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## Cotharyus (Jun 21, 2012)

Well everyone knows what opinions are like. I think it's safe to say the bottom line is if you're afraid of getting hurt, stay home. This thread really is that much more interesting to me since I broke my (aluminum) frame this past friday morning. Fortunately, a local fabricator has indicated they can fix the frame with ease, and it won't affect strength in any way. There's an advantage for metal vs. carbon. But I have to wonder: If I had a carbon frame, would it have broken?

We'll never know the answer to that question, but I do think that the video is relevant to the users on this forum. I also think that people are right when they say it doesn't address "absolute strengths " of materials. 

Fact: F1 cars (since they were brought up) are constructed largely (chasis and suspension) of carbon fiber.

Fact: The suspension parts on an F1 car are probably the MOST RELEVANT parts of an F1 car for a cyclist to look at in this debate.

Fact: F1 suspension arms are VERY strong in the directions/plains they are designed to take force on, but they shatter very easily if you apply force in other directions. This is by design, to keep them as light as possible.

What's that means to a cyclist? It means you better trust the engineering department if you want a carbon frame. If you choose to trust them, I think it's clear you can have a stronger, lighter bike frame made from carbon than you ever could from metal. But again, nothing is without risk.


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## HOV (Apr 16, 2012)

modifier said:


> by saying that carbon composites aren't really as good as good old metal


Nope, never said that either. In fact I said that I liked CF, that I used and continue to use CF bikes & components, and that the material definitely has a place in a wide variety of applications.



meltingfeather said:


> two frames of the same model tested destructively in the same way is relevant to readers of a bike forum.
> normalized performance of test specimens is of no relevance and, more importantly, no interest to 99.5% of readers here.


I've already agreed with that statement.

Once again, my comments were _only _in response to modifier's single question: "How is the testing shown in the video falsely representing the strength of carbon vs aluminum?"

Applying a little critical thinking to that question, the answer is: "the video doesn't show anything about the relative strength of the two MATERIALS. It shows the relative resistance of two FRAME DESIGNS to forces applied in a particular way."

There's simply no disputing this statement.

If I were trying to choose between those two frames, that video would be just the ticket. However, it does nothing to illustrate the difference between CF and Al between any other two designs. At best, it shows that CF CAN be tougher than aluminum. Ok, anyone who has wrapped up their old sandwich in Al foil should be able to intuit that.

But - if the desire is to talk pure strength of materials - _which many people automatically translate that video into_ - then we need to refer to empirically established data as the basis for our conversation. I'm not going to go into what stress-strain diagrams look like for steel vs composites, but (meltingfeather), I know you know. The problem is that most people don't. Doesn't seem like modifier knows his way around one very well.

modifier - no bash intended. It's just that there's really no substitute for formal engineering training and your argument has thus far been based on anecdote. I don't even disagree with you but I do disagree with how you're building your argument. I thought I was well-educated until I started my formal engineering training. I had already completed a graduate degree so I must have been smart, right? Turns out I had about the level of scientific knowledge they had in ancient Greece, except I was worse than the ancient Greeks at math.

Words are important, and if we're having a technical conversation, then so are principles of science & engineering. That video was cool but based on that alone, people shouldn't go around saying that it's required viewing and CF is the alpha and the omega for bicycling, it rules over all, yay, let's go make engine blocks, drill bits, and tires out of CF too. No. CF is a material like any other, and there's always a trade space in how it is considered in design.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

Cotharyus said:


> This thread really is that much more interesting to me since I broke my (aluminum) frame this past friday morning. Fortunately, a local fabricator has indicated they can fix the frame with ease, and it won't affect strength in any way. There's an advantage for metal vs. carbon. But I have to wonder: If I had a carbon frame, would it have broken?


That depends on what kind of aluminum it is. If it's 7000 series aluminum you may be fine. If it's 6000 series aluminum the heat from welding will cause the area right next to the weld to loose elasticity and over flex cycles break again. If you weld 6000 you need to go through a whole frame or whole part 2 step heat treating process to get back to a T6 rating.

Who knows if it would have broken if carbon. With hydroforming these days they are able to make frame shapes to help alleviate high stress areas in aluminum easier than in the past but it's still much easier to manipulate shape and wall thickness as well as fiber orientation with carbon fiber and optimize for what you need.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Cotharyus said:


> Fortunately, a local fabricator has indicated they can fix the frame with ease, and it won't affect strength in any way.


You'd better trust your fabricator if you want an aluminum repair... tricky territory.


Cotharyus said:


> There's an advantage for metal vs. carbon.


Carbon can be repaired.
Take a look as some of Calfee's work (here).


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

HOV, I'm not a trained engineer or a trained architect or bla bla bla... I could go on with a long list of things I participate in along side the guys with degrees. I just solve problems and build things and make them better. I guess I'm better in the field than at the lectern. Sometimes it's nice to not be hampered by data and formulas. 

However, if I was going to build a new suspension fork, which is on my mind, I would have to contract the services of someone more specialized to make it happen. Same thing is I was going to build a carbon fiber frame. I'll cross that hurdle when it comes up. 

Sometimes anecdotal evidence and observations can get you farther than theorems to real world progress.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

HOV said:


> Once again, my comments were _only _in response to modifier's single question: "How is the testing shown in the video falsely representing the strength of carbon vs aluminum?"
> 
> Applying a little critical thinking to that question, the answer is: "the video doesn't show anything about the relative strength of the two MATERIALS. It shows the relative resistance of two FRAME DESIGNS to forces applied in a particular way."
> 
> There's simply no disputing this statement.


The hair splitting and narrow interpretation of a single comment is... strange.



HOV said:


> But - if the desire is to talk pure strength of materials - _which many people automatically translate that video into_ - then we need to refer to empirically established data as the basis for our conversation. I'm not going to go into what stress-strain diagrams look like for steel vs composites, but (meltingfeather), I know you know. The problem is that most people don't. Doesn't seem like modifier knows his way around one very well.


How is it that you want to evoke "critical thinking" yet repeatedly choose to ignore the *primacy* of finished element geometry and layup for evaluating carbon strength? :skep:


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## HOV (Apr 16, 2012)

modifier said:


> HOV, I'm not a trained engineer or a trained architect or bla bla bla... I could go on with a long list of things I participate in along side the guys with degrees. I just solve problems and build things and make them better. I guess I'm better in the field than at the lectern. Sometimes it's nice to not be hampered by data and formulas.
> 
> However, if I was going to build a new suspension fork, which is on my mind, I would have to contract the services of someone more specialized to make it happen. Same thing is I was going to build a carbon fiber frame. I'll cross that hurdle when it comes up.
> 
> Sometimes anecdotal evidence and observations can get you farther than theorems to real world progress.


I agree amigo, paralysis by analysis is alive and well.

Sometimes it's better just to bend metal and see where that gets you. Too bad CF don't bend so good, son! *J/K*


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

meltingfeather said:


> Carbon can be repaired.
> Take a look as some of Calfee's work (here).


Yes, I was going to mention that, and notice they offer a 10 year guarantee on their work. You aren't going to find that on an aluminum repair.


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## rydbyk (Oct 13, 2009)

*Carbon is easily repairable..*

Ahh...the days of old where folks envisioned themselves in their own garages with an arc welder doing repairs to their own steel frames..

How many guys actually ended up doing this back in the day?? Answer: Hardly anyone.

There was a recent article in a bike mag stating that carbon fiber is the most easily repaired bike material today with the best outcome for longevity after repairs.

There just are not very many guys trained in this area YET. It is becoming more common though and Calfee is seeing some competition in my area at least...


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## HOV (Apr 16, 2012)

meltingfeather said:


> The hair splitting and narrow interpretation of a single comment is... strange.


Ok. If you think being specific and answering questions as they are worded is strange, then *high five*.



meltingfeather said:


> How is it that you want to evoke "critical thinking" yet repeatedly choose to ignore the *primacy* of finished element geometry and layup for evaluating carbon strength? :skep:


I'm glad we agree, that's exactly my point. For evaluating strength of a finished design, geometry, material, material thickness are most certainly factors. As are a lot of other things done throughout the manufacturing process to ensure the design is executed right.

Which means that the video in question clearly shows the performance of one design vs the other and very little about the materials in question.

Here are things we agree upon. In your words:

1. finished element geometry and layup is of primary importance in evaluating carbon strength
2. two frames of the same model tested destructively in the same way is relevant to readers of a bike forum. 
3. normalized performance of test specimens is of no relevance and, more importantly, no interest to 99.5% of readers here.

My only extension to your points #2 & 3 is that many people seeing that video will go automatically assume that the material alone is what causes the superior resistance to damage. I'm just trying to emphasize, as you say, the *primacy* of finished element geometry and layup for evaluating carbon strength.

What's interesting here is that I'm in complete agreement with you, yet you're saying I'm wrong. Which means your'e saying you're wrong. I disagree, you're right!


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

HOV;9450493
Which means that the video in question clearly shows the performance of one design vs the other and very little about the materials in question.
[/QUOTE said:


> I disagree. Both frames are built to the best of their ability considering the limitations or advantages of each material and the CF frame ends up being stronger by a considerable amount. I wouldn't be surprised if your arms would break before you broke the frame.
> 
> Plus with the ability to easily strengthen certain areas when necessary I'm thinking with some real world testing they can build a CF frame that will last longer and ride better too.
> 
> ...


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## HOV (Apr 16, 2012)

modifier said:


> Both frames are built to the best of their ability considering the limitations or advantages of each material and the CF frame ends up being stronger by a considerable amount. I wouldn't be surprised if your arms would break before you broke the frame.


We agree here - the video clearly shows one frame being stronger than the other. I've never said anything different.



modifier said:


> The idea of taking a straight 1.5" tube of the same wall thickness of CF and of AL and stressing both to failure really does not apply to much outside of the laboratory because that isn't a limitation you will have when building a bike frame or an airplane wing.
> 
> I understand your argument, I just see it as academic.


Material properties drive weight, cost, form factor/geometry, part interface considerations, manufacturing processes, manufacturing timelines, et cetera, ad nauseum. It's a very real limitation that critically defines the engineering trade space. Engineers building bike frames and airplane wings cannot disregard material properties as it is fundamental to their designs.

Discussion of material properties are only "academic" here on mtbr, where the conversation is geared around the user end and the choices consumers can make about the products they buy. Thus, discussing the strength of the material outside of the context of the design is "academic" here.

But saying they're not relevant outside the lab is simply incorrect.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

If we keep this up much longer I'm sure we are going to piss of some people who hate debates like this and think we should just ride  But of course they have the free will to not click on the update.

Everyone knows that carbon fiber is stronger per unit weight than metals so that is a given and I don't think we are discussing that. And like I have said cost is the biggest limiting factor of CF construction making metal more affordable. The gain can be seen after the mold is produced and the layup is figured out with repetitive production over building a frame in a jig by welding sections together. Plus you can charge more for a better product. But we aren't really discussing profitability either.

If you take the 2 tubes I spoke of and make everything the same except wall thickness and also make them the same weight I contend that the optimized CF tube will out perform the metal tube as it did in the frame test video making the video relevant in any context . Which is why people choose CFC when they want the best material for the job and cost is not the over riding concern.

You appear to be arguing against this idea. If you aren't then wth are you arguing about? Semantics? Sentence structure?


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## pixel_nut (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm definitely not buying a carbon fiber frame for at least 5 years. I'm seeing stories like this constantly where a part of the frame or a carbon fiber component just shears apart.


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## HOV (Apr 16, 2012)

modifier said:


> Everyone knows that carbon fiber is stronger per unit weight than metals so that is a given and I don't think we are discussing that.


To be honest, I didn't know any properties of carbon fiber because I've never done any analysis with it. So I looked some up. What follows are some categories of strength, and some numbers representative of a particular type of metal or composite. Results vary widely between different grades of material.

Ultimate Tensile Strength: the maximum stress a material experiences while being pulled apart.

ASTM-A913 Grade 65 structural steel: 80,000 lb/sq in
Alloy 6061-T6 aluminum: 38,000 lb/sq in
Carbon fiber: 500,000 lb/sq in

Yield strength: the stress at which the material is strained beyond the elastic limit and begins to permanently deform:

ASTM-A913 Grade 65 structural steel: 65,000 lb/sq in
Alloy 6061-T6 aluminum: 35,000 lb/sq in
Carbon fiber: undefined: once the ultimate strength is exceeded, the material suddenly and catastrophically fails.

Endurance limit: the stress under which the material can be cycled indefinitely without causing failure. Typically steel is (0.5 * ultimate tensile strength), aluminum is (0.4*ultimate tensile strength), so:

ASTM-A913 Grade 65 structural steel: 40,000 lb/sq in
Alloy 6061-T6 aluminum: 15,200 lb/sq in
Carbon fiber: ? I cannot find any representative number, which is a bummer because this is quite relevant to this conversation.

BTW, here's a great link on the subject specifically in regards to bicycles: Bob Brown Cycles: analysis

So you're right that some CF is stronger than some metals. I'm very much interested in the endurance limit for CF.

Also, during my little bit of poking around on the subject I found a nice chart describing the mechanical properties of CF with the fibers at different angles to the loading axis:

Mechanical Properties of Carbon Fibre Composite Materials

If I'm reading that chart correctly, the properties of the stuff change dramatically when loaded in such a way that is not designed for. That should be no surprise. Anyway, I had no beef with CF before and this little bit of poking around has really made me impressed with the stuff.



modifier said:


> If you take the 2 tubes I spoke of and make everything the same except wall thickness and also make them the same weight I contend that the optimized CF tube will out perform the metal tube as it did in the frame test video making the video relevant in any context...[clip]... You appear to be arguing against this idea. If you aren't then wth are you arguing about? Semantics? Sentence structure


You may be right, but as it is now the only thing I have been arguing is that the video shows the comparative strength of two different designs, not two different materials. Given the information provided in the video, what I said is still true.

The data I provided as an example above is, to me, the real supporting evidence of the statement that the material CF can be stronger than certain metals (given certain ways of measuring strength). That's it man, that's I was talking about. Pretty easy eh?

Thanks for the conversation, I enjoyed learning more about CF. I'd really love to learn how to work with the stuff. You're right, there are a ton of possibilities.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

HOV said:


> Ok. If you think being specific and answering questions as they are worded is strange, then *high five*.


I think you took a comment that wasn't nearly as specific as your analysis of it, which required assumption on your part, which means the intent of the comment is not what you were addressing, but your assumptions about specificity that was not there. That was my point. :thumbsup:



HOV said:


> What's interesting here is that I'm in complete agreement with you, yet you're saying I'm wrong. Which means your'e saying you're wrong. I disagree, you're right!


I never said you were wrong. :skep:
I provided a little context-relevant perspective.
If you agree with me, then you are right! 

:band:


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

Howzabout those Giants, eh?










I love that you can repair carbon frames. It would not make a difference in this case of the carbon fork. I don't think there is a reasonable way to repair that kind of failure.

Now sure how repairability is relevant to this topic.


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

50mm said:


> I'm definitely not buying a carbon fiber frame for at least 5 years. I'm seeing stories like this constantly where a part of the frame or a carbon fiber component just shears apart.


I wouldnt worry about it, theres squillions of CF parts out there and you'll only ever hear the sob stories.

I dont own a CF frame but i do own wheels/bars/posts/seats/levers ect and never had a failure.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

50mm said:


> I'm seeing stories like this constantly where a part of the frame or a carbon fiber component just shears apart.


Are you sure you aren't confusing people often "saying" carbon fiber parts fail catastrophically more often than metal parts or actually "seeing" broken parts and frames?

Everything can break if pushed beyond it's design parameters or if involved in a collision with an immovable object, which is where most CF failures occur I think. I'm sure it happens but I really don't see much stress failure at all except the occasional sensational story like this one. And metal frames break all the time, particularly aluminum. I've broken 3 so far.

Personally I've been using carbon fiber since it came out in the late 80s and the only thing that ever failed for me was a first generation road bike seat post on a rigid mountain bike, and that only failed after I let someone else ride it who didn't know how to ride and even then it didn't just shear off. It cracked and bent but held together well enough for me to limp home on it.

I think the fear of CF is akin to the fear of witches. Not much touch with reality but a lot of faith in wives tails.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

I have been reading this thread with some interest and would like to comment.

There have been some comparisons made to composites being used in aviation and if good enough for that application it must be good enough for mountain biking. I don't believe that comparison holds water. As an airline pilot I have seen more than one composite radar nose cone destroyed by flight into hail or bird strike.

While I acknowledge that the tensile strength of a carbon composite frame is adequately strong as demonstrated in the posted video, it does not address a concern I have with carbon. Understand that I would like to own a carbon frame if my concern was allayed.

I have happily used carbon handlebars for over ten years but they are not subject to frequent impact. A mountain bike frame unlike a road bike is.

I live in Norther New Jersey which is very rocky. There is hardly a ride on which I don't have a fist size rock flying of the front wheel and impacting the down tube with a resounding clang. With aluminum frames I've owned, I've needed not much more than touch up paint. I'd like to know what this type of pounding does to a composite frame over time. I've read (but can not confirm) that there can be internal/invisible damage to carbon fibers with the potential for failure. 

I'd appreciate realistic input.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

While impacts do happen they aren't common plus DH CF frames usually have guards at key areas like on the bottom of the down tube and on top of the chain stay. Also look up that video of Chris beating a 9er carbon fork and a steel fork with a hammer. The stuff is harder than you are led to believe. I've crashed many times on my almost all carbon bike and you could not tell. Plus with carbon bars end plugs are important. You have to be smart about it.

They use CF in airplanes in a lot of other places than nose cones. But maybe that isn't the best application for it.

I think I should get some kind of compensation from the USCF association or something. lol 

At this point in history I'm pretty sure negative opinions are going to keep trickling in no matter what I say or what kind of data is presented. Just mark my words and wait...it will be the norm at some point. Trust me.


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## TR (Jan 12, 2004)

I impacted my Tallboy a few times at speed on rocks.
It did not even make a mark.


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## Ronnie (Jan 17, 2004)

TR said:


> I impacted my Tallboy a few times at speed on rocks.
> It did not even make a mark.


That is just the point. I have read that the impact and distortion/indentation can result in invisible damage or possible delamination internally, weakening the structure. It is not like pounding a solid composite structure like a fork with a hammer and chipping the paint. Pounding a carbon composite tube could be causing fibers to break. When I slam my aluminum frame into a rock and it's dented and possibly compromised, it is pretty obvious. As you have stated there is no (obvious) damage to your frame. Perhaps that is why there are reports of sudden catastrophic failure. I'm not stating this is the case. I don't know but I'd like some evidence to the contrary.


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## TR (Jan 12, 2004)

Ronnie said:


> That is just the point. I have read that the impact and distortion/indentation can result in invisible damage or possible delamination internally, weakening the structure. It is not like pounding a solid composite structure like a fork with a hammer and chipping the paint. Pounding a carbon composite tube could be causing fibers to break. When I slam my aluminum frame into a rock and it's dented and possibly compromised, it is pretty obvious. As you have stated there is no (obvious) damage to your frame. Perhaps that is why there are reports of sudden catastrophic failure. I'm not stating this is the case. I don't know but I'd like some evidence to the contrary.


I have read that ti is a lifetime frame choice (and I own 2 ti bikes, soon to be 3); but I have seen no evidence that this is actually the case. In fact I have seen a few broken ti frames and forks on this very forum.
I have also read that many small frame builders offer a lifetime warranty but that is yet to be proven and will obviously not be the case if the builder goes out of business or dies.

I agree that if the impact is significant then I would not ride the CF frame again. But what is significant? I will pick my frame up and happily ride it again after it has bounced off a rock but I wrote of my CF road bike after it (and I) was hit by a car (despite there being no visible damage).


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## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

Ronnie said:


> I have been reading this thread with some interest and would like to comment.
> 
> There have been some comparisons made to composites being used in aviation and if good enough for that application it must be good enough for mountain biking. I don't believe that comparison holds water. As an airline pilot I have seen more than one composite radar nose cone destroyed by flight into hail or bird strike.
> 
> ...


They basically build in extra carbon layers to protect against exactly that. What... you think this has never happened before? :thumbsup:


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## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

We'll close this thread. It has gone wayyyy past the original Niner discussion.


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