# Much ado about nothing



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Matt Robbins, a spokesman for Jefferson County’s Parks and Conservation Department said: “I cannot think of an example of where we received a notable conflict (report) because a cyclist was on an e-bike that wouldn’t have been on a regular bike,” he said. “Have we had hiker-biker conflicts? 100%. But it’s not because of the type of bike they’re riding.”









“Cheater!”: Tensions rise as Coloradans debate how much trail access to give e-bikes


Some say e-bikes are a great tool for accessibility. Others argue they’re bringing chaos to the backcountry.




coloradosun.com


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## TeeCee (Jan 7, 2021)

For sure. It's all about the person,not an inanimate object.


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## wdonegan (Feb 11, 2011)

Yep, JeffCo actually did the work to make a determination about eMTB access. Others seem to be making decisions based on fear, uncertainty, and doubt.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

wdonegan said:


> Yep, JeffCo actually did the work to make a determination about eMTB access. Others seem to be making decisions based on fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


They're making decisions based on the elitist attitudes of a vocal minority.


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## angelo (Sep 3, 2004)

_CJ said:


> They're making decisions based on the elitist attitudes of a vocal minority.
> 
> 
> .


Elitist, like the young cancer patient in the article right? Sheesh, live and let live man.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

angelo said:


> Elitist, like the young cancer patient in the article right? Sheesh, live and let live man.


Elitists, who want to keep ebikes off of trails on public lands, and make comments about them cheating are the vocal minority, man.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Directional and specific use only trails are the reason the have such good success there. Most trail systems would eliminate conflict if they had dedicated Bike, Dedicated Horse and Dedicated Hiking trails along with directional trails.

Rider conflict of any kind comes from the trail systems that are primarily multi-use.

Frankly JeffCo is not a good example for how eBikes are being integrated into most trail systems in the United States.

I do agree that those decrying the end of the world because they now have to share the trails with eBikes are blowing things out of proportion, but really the example of JeffCo is more a good example of how trails should be dedicated to use and direction more than eBike integration.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> Directional and specific use only trails are the reason the have such good success there. Most trail systems would eliminate conflict if they had dedicated Bike, Dedicated Horse and Dedicated Hiking trails along with directional trails.
> 
> Rider conflict of any kind comes from the trail systems that are primarily multi-use.
> 
> ...


I love how you've never been to JeffCo, but seem to think you know more than the actual land manager there after watching a couple of Youtube videos and reading things on the internet. Fact is, you have no idea what you're talking about.

And please pay no attention to ALL state parks in Colorado treating class 1 ebikes the same as regular bikes also having no issues as a result.

We're talking hundreds of miles of trails that aren't directional, or separated by user group, and the few miles that are separated that way had to be because of traditional mountain bikers, not ebikes.

There is ZERO reason to treat class 1 ebikes any differently than traditional bikes.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Nothing I said was incorrect. JeffCo did an Amazing Job creating Directional Trails and use-specific trails. That is why trail dynamics and interaction in the JeffCo system is so good. That is not up for debate.

I have yet to see major studies done in high traffic trail systems that have ZERO directional Trails and ZERO Use-specific trails. If you have one please show it to us.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

You can keep clinging to that narrative about direction and use specific trails in Jeffco, but it's not even remotely accurate.

You act as if Jeffco is a tiny township with three trails, but in reality Jefferson County is _huge_, encompassing several cities and townships, with hundreds of miles of trails in several open space areas, and only a tiny fraction of them are directional or use specific. ebikes haven't been a problem for them, because class 1 ebikes are nearly identical to traditional bikes in every way, so their impact environmentally and societally is also nearly identical.

The fact that class 1 have been incorporated over thousands of miles of trails, with thousands of riders, for years....essentially millions of miles ridden with no significant impact, is all the data anyone needs. It's just not even disputable at this point. And this isn't just Jeffco, or even just Colorado. It's all of Bentonville AR, most of Europe, and I'm sure tons of other places.

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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Anti "e" individuals aren't amenable to data and will reconcile in a way that neutralizes the result.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

fos'l said:


> Anti "e" individuals aren't amenable to data and will reconcile in a way that neutralizes the result.


Same goes for those blindly dedicated to the narrative they want.

Still waiting on actual data outside of JeffCo......


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Klurejr said:


> Frankly JeffCo is not a good example for how eBikes are being integrated into most trail systems in the United States.


Did someone mention something about data?


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

The old and the sick deserve them! Okay you get a pass.
What about the young and the fit that like them? Cheaters!!!

DH bike that self shuttles, Thank you Sir my I have another (lap). 

I 💘 directional trails.


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## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Read the article.

I... don't think its quite as one sided as anyone is making it out to be. The article is about Tensions between user groups, not "ebikes good" or "ebikes bad". 

For instance, it says this:



> On some trails, fistfights have nearly broken out between hikers and e-bikers, Howe said. The lack of trail etiquette is an issue, too, as some e-bike users nearly overrun traditional mountain bike riders as they zip past them on a steady climb with the help of their inconspicuous motor.
> 
> More frustrating, though, is when e-bike users ignore regulations.
> 
> ...


And then immediately after that, it says this:



> In April, the BLM approved a master plan for a popular trail network north of Fruita, off 18 Road, which attracts riders from across the country. It allowed class 1 e-bikes on new and existing trails.
> 
> The move has been welcomed by e-bike users, Howe said, and he hasn’t heard of any conflicts sparking from the new order.


I actually thought the article did a good job talking about both the tensions, and land management difficulties. I particularly liked the bit where they showed data that 65% of the people surveyed on trails, weren't able to tell the difference between a mountain bike, and an e(mountain)bike. I say "like", as it underscores a bunch of the difficulty with land management, especially with user reported conflict, and the land grant money.

I'm a huge fan of directional, specific use trails. Where possible, that seems like the best option to reduce conflict personally.

My state is doing more ebike discussions this year, and I'll be curious to see how it all works out.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

mlx john said:


> Did someone mention something about data?
> 
> View attachment 1998320


If you read the rest of that post you quoted you would know I have knowledge of the directional trails and use-specific trails in the JeffCo trail system. That is what makes JeffCo's introduction of eBikes so much easier than places with only Multi-use non-directional trails. JeffCo is not the norm, it is an outlier compared to most trails in this nation.

Apex in particular has been held up as a shining beacon to back up some views that eBikes will work perfectly in all trails because it works good there:





Apex Park | Jefferson County, CO


Apex Park provides a popular, accessible foothills experience minutes from downtown Golden.




www.jeffco.us




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My point is Those trail systems have already done 95% of the work to reduce negative trail interactions between user groups, so pointing at it as some sort of measuring point for ebikes on trail for the entire nation does not work unless all trail systems in the nation adopt Directional Trails and use-specific trails first.

The entire tone of CJ's posts(this one and others) has been "eBikes are fine and work in this one specific place, so they must work everywhere - Deal with it". I am simply pointing out that is not backed up by real stats, and the stats we have from JeffCo are Skewed for the reasons I pointed out above.


That does not mean that eBikes cannot be integrated into other trails systems, after riding one I think they can. We just that we do not have the stats needed to back up the nonchalant attitude CJ and other die-hard eBike or die type members of this site give off.

Frankly I wish every single managed trail system in the US took JeffCo's lead and removed most MUT's and replaced them with Directional and Use-Specific Trails. With that out of the way the extra speed an eMTB offers becomes a non-issue.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

I get it. That was my sophomoric attempt at signaling "I don't care".

Sorry that you felt the need to write the essay...

I'll see myself out of this thread


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> The entire tone of CJ's posts(this one and others) has been "eBikes are fine and work in this one specific place, so they must work everywhere - Deal with it". I am simply pointing out that is not backed up by real stats, and the stats we have from JeffCo are Skewed for the reasons I pointed out above.


No, I said thousands of miles of ebike legal trails, with thousands of riders on them....millions of miles ridden, conflict free, or at least free of conflict that can be attributed to the "e" of an an ebike.

You continue to cling to the Apex trail as your shining beacon of why Jeffco's program only works in Jeffco, when in reality, that trail doesn't even represent 1% of their entire single-track trail system. Clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about, and no local knowledge, but you keep spewing the same talking point.

And you continue to ignore the fact that the state of Colorado has declared class 1 ebikes to be "non-motorized", and treated the same as traditional bikes (unless specifically restricted by a city/county/federal entity), which is why they're legal in all state parks wherever traditional bikes are legal, AND legal on all other city and county trails unless restricted by a specific land management authority.....and still no problems attributable specifically to ebikes.

The evidence of class 1 ebikes having no more impact than traditional bikes under _any_ circumstance is overwhelming. No more studies, or comment periods, or environmental impact studies are needed, and to continue to restrict access under the guise of such things is blatant discrimination, imho.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

_CJ said:


> No, I said thousands of miles of ebike legal trails, with thousands of riders on them....millions of miles ridden, conflict free, or at least free of conflict that can be attributed to the "e" of an an ebike.


You also took the time to go venture into a thread about a city doing it's best to prevent the death of children on eBikes to make an anecdotal statement about kids with no helmets riding dirtbikes on the street in front of your house not getting killed.... implying that somehow that happening in your neighborhood should impact how Commuter eBikes are used and regulated in a different city and state. You had already lost a bunch of credibility with me in the past with all your head in the sand eBikes can do no wrong Rhetoric, then you threw the rest of it out the window with your dirt bike comment in the Carlsbad thread. Multiple kids under 18 have died on the city streets on eBikes, because of eBikes power and speed and you come in there and throw around a trash anecdotal story.

Then you come post this thread "much ado about nothing" in an obvious attempt to throw shade at the deaths of children.


You are really way to much. Consider taking a break from MTBR for a while please. You are right on the line of trolling now.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

When you don't agree with someone, just threaten to ban them, very impressive rhetoric. Don't you really think that e-bikes don't belong in MTBR?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Haven’t been here in a long time. Good to see the same ole bs.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

fos'l said:


> When you don't agree with someone, just threaten to ban them, very impressive rhetoric. Don't you really think that e-bikes don't belong in MTBR?


I fully believe the eBikes belong on MTBR. I am currently shopping for one.

I dont believe that eBikes should be regulated the same as non-motorized bikes on every trail in the nation and find it disingenuous when some push an agenda that they should.

There was no threat of ban, just a suggestion that the rhetoric and sideways shade throwing stop.


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

Gutch said:


> Haven’t been here in a long time. Good to see the same ole bs.


Yep, CJ just refuses to stop it. Sorry you had to see that. Most of the eBike guys on this site are more reasonable.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Klurejr said:


> You also took the time to go venture into a thread about a city doing it's best to prevent the death of children on eBikes to make an anecdotal statement about kids with no helmets riding dirtbikes on the street in front of your house not getting killed.... implying that somehow that happening in your neighborhood should impact how Commuter eBikes are used and regulated in a different city and state. You had already lost a bunch of credibility with me in the past with all your head in the sand eBikes can do no wrong Rhetoric, then you threw the rest of it out the window with your dirt bike comment in the Carlsbad thread. Multiple kids under 18 have died on the city streets on eBikes, because of eBikes power and speed and you come in there and throw around a trash anecdotal story.
> 
> Then you come post this thread "much ado about nothing" in an obvious attempt to throw shade at the deaths of children.
> 
> ...


Bro, if anyone needs to take a step away for a while, it's you.

The article I shared had nothing to do with you or your post. It was shared by a cycling advocacy group I follow, and I shared it here because I felt it was well balanced, and presented the facts of what's going on with eMTB's, without the author taking a side.

You on the other hand seemed to feel the need to start a thread about class 2 and class 3 ebikes being used on city streets, which has nothing to do with the stated mission of this website. It appeared to be yet another obvious attempt to paint ebikes in a bad light, to support your position of restricted access, and boy did the haters take the bait. Talk about trolling!

As for my anecdote about kids riding dirt bikes around the neighborhood, it was merely to state that there's nothing new going on there. Well, maybe the mode of transport, but not the result. Kids do stupid ****, always have, always will. Some die in the process. When I was a kid, one of my classmates was killed riding a dirt bike illegally on the street at 80mph when he ran into a car that pulled out from a side street. The cops used it as an example, and went around to the local schools doing presentations, showing all the kids pictures of the aftermath. That's how you deal with this stuff, not by passing more laws, requiring more permission slips, or banning the thing they were doing............._not that any of this has anything to do with mountain biking!_


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