# New Build - 2018 S-Works Epic Hardtail (Di2)



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I'm getting itchy (pubic lice?), so time for a new build.

I tend to flip-flip between hardtails and XC FS bikes, and as you can see from the thread title, I'm onto a Specialized Epic hardtail. It will be interesting to see as I've previously owned one (when it was called the Stumpjumper HT) back in 2015-ish, so I should be able to compare.

Frame weight should be fantastic for a WW-style build, so that's a plus.

As in past cases, I'll be selling off the frame, wheelset, and fork from my current bike/build:
http://forums.mtbr.com/weight-weenies/new-build-2016-s-works-epic-29-di2-1028472.html

By all means PM me if interested in any of it. (Di2 and MCFK cockpit stuff stays.)

Thanks in advance for the interest and comments, and unlike the last "build", I'll remember to take lots of weights FIRST, instead of after, and doing it backwards. [duh]


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## Lenny7 (Sep 1, 2008)

I'm love that frame but I'm short on allowance after my current build. Good luck with the new build.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thx Lenny. I think this frame is a great base for the new build. Just got it now, so I'll post up some weights, etc, soon.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Weight Claims*

Well, some impressive claims from Specialized around frame weight, specifically "less than 900g for a size Large frame".

So is it? I guess so.

To start, it is 970g as most people would typically use it, which is still great, but not sub 900g:

















This would include:

... the downtube bumper (to prevent fork smash given the updated geo), 17g (15g + 2 bolts):

















... the stock seat binder with Ti bolt, 11g:









... and everything else (various bolts) etc.

However, there are some scenarios that are a bit lighter, a bit heavier, and I'll see if I can find the legendary 900g number for the core frame itself - next post(s).


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## Lenny7 (Sep 1, 2008)

That is impressive. I just built up a generic large asian carbon 29er and it clocked in around 1150g. My finished build was just under 22 lbs. I do endurance races so have to have my boat anchor saddle and ergon grips.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Heaviest Setup*

So now that I've checked the typical frame weight, what is the heaviest scenario with this frame?

First, we start with the 970g from above.

Then, if you need a front derailleur, you'll add 28g by adding the adapter:









This is ingenious actually, as if you're running 1X there's no weight penalty. Something to be aware of though, if you use the adapter it takes up 2 bolts on the front of the seat tube, thus eliminating the possibility of 2 water bottles on the frame.

Next, if you opt to use the additional lower chainstay protector (comes with the frame), that's 8g:









Again though, I'm impressed with what Specialized has done here. In the past we've seen bolt-on, or snap-on (strapon? ha!) chainstay protectors that were unnecessarily bulky. The installed one (about twice the size of the one above) is on top of the driveside chainstay as you'd expect, but again it is a lightweight, adhesive-backed item that likely only weights 16-18g (I won't peel it off to weigh it). Smart!

Lastly, if you opt to run a SWAT box on the frame, you also get a rubber protector with the frame. (Thanks to S-Works Boy for confirming.) This would add 15g:









So while some of these things are not technically frame-related, they would be part of the core frame weight in certain scenarios. So, the "heaviest" version of the frame for a build would be:

970 + 28 + 8 + 15 = 1,021g

Still amazing!


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## serious1 (Jan 11, 2013)

Pretty interested to see how this turns out. I will be building one up this winter as well but I'll probably spring for the non-sworks frame. Hoping for sub 19lbs. Will you be using the new SID for it?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yep, I have a new SID World Cup (BOOST, 51mm offset) en route to me now, but just the standard RockShox version, not the Specialized "Brain" version. In fact, this will be the first "brainless" bike I've built in about 10 years or so.


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## serious1 (Jan 11, 2013)

You'll have to share your thoughts on that. Heard the new Charger damper is really good in the sid. Have you tried the Chisel fork yet? I'm sure you've seen this thread too right? 2017 S-Works Epic HT Single speed. - Weight Weenies


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thx for the URL - I remember seeing that thread a couple of months ago, but hadn't checked it recently. Is there a final weight posted? I can't find it. That said, my bike likely won't touch a SS, fully rigid machine in terms of weight. (Also the foam grips just don't work for me - trees like to take chunks off them!) 

I'm thinking sub-18 lbs is doable (dare I say sub-17 lbs?), with a Di2 battery stuffed in. We'll see.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Sub 900g Frame?*

As mentioned earlier, Specialized claims that a size Large frame is less than 900g. For fun, I wanted to test this. While not usable in this form, I wanted to weigh just the carbon shell, stripping everything else off - I believe this is how their claim is made.

We start again at 970g, which is the typical use weight (assuming 1X gearing), and I'll remove stuff. Removing the downtube bumper, and seat binder shown above in post #4, -28g.

Then, removing all frame bolts (5 on inner triangle, 1 on back of seat tube for optional FD mount), -6g:









Next comes the cable routing form under the bottom bracket, which sheds 7g along with bolt & washer:

















On a side note, this reveals a drain hole under the BB:









Next up for removal, and something I'll be doing for my build is removing the external cable stop on the chainstay. If you've looked at this frame, much of the cable routing is internal, but the rear derailleur cable is exposed underneath the chainstay. What's nice though is that Specialized has bolted the cable stop on, and it exposes a Di2 e-tube routing hole - nice! This removal lightens things by 4g more:

















This is a tiny rubber plug at the bottom of the seat stay, which is another Di2 routing hole. Doesn't register on my scale:

















We're now down to 920g for the frame so far:









But wait - there's more (less)!

There are 2 more bits not part of the core carbon. The first is the derailleur hanger. I'm not going to remove this as I can't find the torque setting to re-install it, however I just happen to have an exact spare from a previous bike. Removing this piece (and bolt) lowers the weight by 15g more:









Finally, there's the pre-installed chainstay protector. If you look in post #6 above, you'll see that the small version that is not installed is 8g. The installed one is slightly more than twice as long, so I'll say it is 18g. (I won't strip it off to weigh it.)

We had 920g - 33g = 887g!

So, while I've literally stripped the frame down as far as it will go, it indeed lives up to Specialized claims of sub-900g for a size Large!


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## Dangerholm (Sep 10, 2017)

Congrats on such a nice frame! Will be following this build for sure.

Sucks a bit about claimed weights (as usual), perhaps they meant sub-900g unpainted or stripped of small parts as you did, but when companies claim any other weights than painted and rideable it feels a bit backwards. Still, impressive weight and it makes for a really nice starting point!

Have you decided on wheels yet or will we have to wait and see?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thx for the comment! I take your point on claimed weights in general, but honestly I'm impressed with what Spesh has done here. You could argue that anyone running a front derailleur must tack on weight to add the adapter, but at the same time they've been able to strip off weight for those running 1X.

Good point re the paint - I think that can amount to ~50g if scraped off. Never could understand folks that do that though given that you eliminate resale value, and likely void warranty.

As for the wheelset, I have a set of Roval Control SL 148 (BOOST) on the way.


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## Dangerholm (Sep 10, 2017)

Absolutely, 900ish grams is impressive no matter what, especially since the frame rides well too from what I've heard/read! 

Probably at least 50g, could very well be around 100g. Actually I am one of those folks haha, but I fully understand those who don't want to put a knife on their new expensive frames and parts. Comes down to how far you want to push it I guess, but luckily it's possible today to build both strong and really light without taking to extreme measures like that. :thumbsup:

Sounds great, looking forward to seeing it on wheels and getting built up!


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

My Medium was 890g with all the bits and 850g without.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Hey Matt, that's good for reference. Wish I was smaller - damn!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Stock Rear Thru Axle*

Semi-related to the frame is the stock thru axle that ships with it.

In the past I've bought aftermarket ones as they've typically been quite a bit lighter, but this stock, Boost 148 one looks great at @33g:









That's pretty impressive, because the stock X-12 for my 2016 Epic, a shorter 142, actually weighed more at 39g:









So Specialized has done well here too - but mostly I'm happy because I don't have to buy anything for now. 

As references, I've gone with Extralite Blacklock in the past. Their "12.b" version (X-12 BOOST), is 31g, but no way am I spending 72 EUR/93 USD + shipping/tax/duty for a 2g difference:
Black Lock

Also note the tightening on the Blacklock is reversed, which has messed with my head a couple of times, so happy to get a rightey-tightey back again.

Alternatively one could go with Carbon Ti, but their version is 34g, and yet again more expensive. You get choice of colours though:
X-Lock X-12, Thru Axles Bike,for Rear Wheel

I've also used Tune in the past, their candidate, is 37g and also expensive (but also colourful, I believe):
https://www.tune.de/produkt/steckachsen/dc12-steckachsspanner.html

So, I have to admit I'm impressed with the stock part here.

Next up: SID WC fork, and the stock Maxle on it. I'm told it comes with the "Maxle Stealth", which is relatively light - would be great to save some cash here too.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Roval Control SL 148s came in. I'll weigh and post pics shortly.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Shortly has come and gone... We want weights!!!


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## Seb K (Apr 21, 2009)

But the Tune is QR so considering it is only 37grams with a lever is impressive . Personally i would spend the extra extra and go with a blue or gold axle .


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## plupp (Sep 19, 2011)

Whats your ruff spec for the bike?

I'm currently building up an Medium
*
S-Works Epic HT Frame*
Rockshox SiD Brain - 42mm offset
M9000 - Brakes
Aerozine seatpost
Ritchey Steem WCS Saddle
S-Works Powerness Handlebar
XX1 Eagle groupset
Extralite hubs converted to boost + 27mm chinese rims + CX Ray = 1280g
Quarq Eagle Crankset with 38T chainring

Think it will be light, but need to start over with getting it under 8kg. Of course to convert to 1x11 would save some weight with the cassette, chain, chainring size and derailleur. But would like to keep it.

So think I'm almost done.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

BlownCivic said:


> Shortly has come and gone... We want weights!!!


Ha, sorry - I'll get right on it!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Seb K said:


> But the Tune is QR so considering it is only 37grams with a lever is impressive . Personally i would spend the extra extra and go with a blue or gold axle .


Great point in that the Tune offers a lever for just 4g more, but I'm fine with hex.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

plupp said:


> Whats your ruff spec for the bike?
> 
> I'm currently building up an Medium
> *
> ...


Thanks for the interest in the build - please post some pics and weights of your build as we'd love to see it.

I have the size L HT frame, a SID WC (non-brain) is en route with 51mm offset, and I just got the Roval SL 148 wheelset. I think your wheelset build is impressive (1280g - nice!), and I must have worked out 12 different builds from LightBikes, NOBL, NOX, MCFK, etc, but ultimately settled of the Specialized wheels. Not ultra-light, but no weight limits that I'm aware of and I love the DT Swiss internals.

As for the other bits, have a look in post #1 above, as I'm moving my MCFK cockpit over to this new frame, along with Di2.

I'm targeting under 8kg (17-ish lbs), and you should be able to do the same for sure.


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

Going to be an awesome build. I love my 2018 EHT. Best bike I've owned.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Roval Control SL 29 148 Details*

Sorry for the delays here as I actually had a life for a while.

Wheelset arrived with tape pre-installed as is always the case. Nicer black tape instead of the previous brownish stuff, and the job is perfectly done, with minimal overlap. I wanted to rip this off to test the plugs, but it's just too nicely done. Maybe if/when the tape tears.

Anyway, from a previous source I believe Stan's tape is 7g per wheel, so 14g per wheelset. I think the Specialized tape is thicker, but who knows:








_Does anyone know what the "26" means on the tape? Weird._

I did weigh the plugs though. This particular wheelset uses 24H up front, and 28H on the rear. 24 plugs weighs 7g (+/- 0.5g given the inaccuracy of my scale):









...and 28 plugs flip-flopped between 8 and 9 g:








_Specialized gives you 8 extra plugs. I think I lost 6 during this photo shoot!_

So, I'll say the plugs weigh ~16g, which seems roughly what tape would weight. If anyone has better detail here, please post and correct me.

The Specialized valves weigh ~ 4.5g each:









The front wheel, with valve and tape is 646g:









The rear is 787g:









... and the math is correct as the full wheelset, tape and valves, is 1443g:









As reference, I had an older pair of non-boost, Roval Control SL 29s a few years ago, and they were 1414g with valves and tape:
http://forums.mtbr.com/weight-weeni...rks-stumpjumper-ht-935429-2.html#post11754733

As for claims of 1330g for the "total wheelset weight", I'm not sure we're close.

1443 - 9g valves, -16g tape = 1418. While their claims about the frame were valid, I think the wheelset is a stretch.


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

For reference, my same wheels came within 6 grams of yours. I left the tape as well.
I know the plugs are a good idea, but I KNOW tape works and is a small penalty to pay for 'perceived' reliability.


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

Is it tape or a strip like the brown previous version that just stretched on the rim? The 26 is width because the rim is 25 and the strips are always 1mm wider. If a strip they weigh near 30g each.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Not sure of the difference between a strip and tape, but the 30g weight is interesting, and seems beefy. I can only assume this is the same OEM application that came with the previous SL 29 wheelsets.

Do you have more details on that?


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

The strip is not an adhesive, it stretches over the rim.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Rockshox SID World Cup*

The fork arrived, so I can finally move ahead with the actual build.

Uncut fork is 1428g (without Maxle):









...and I'd expect the cut to remove ~25g from the overall weight.

As reference, a cut 2014 SID fork (with brain) weighs 1556 without axle:









Unfortunately the fork did not ship with a Maxle Stealth, as they suggested. Stock one weighs in @ 77g:









I'll have to figure out what to go with. Extralite's version is only 29g, but I'm not a fan of the reversed threads:
Black Lock


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Well, I wound up ordering the Extralite Blacklock. Found it at a decent price on R2, and also grabbed some Rocket Rons at the same time. (The non-Addix versions of Schwalbe tires, without the stripe, are super cheap now.)

I was close to buying a carbon axle from Shift Up, but I actually got too scared: both of the price and the potential for failure. I'm usually pretty trustful of carbon composite engineering these days, but I just couldn't pull the trigger.

It would have been only 22g, but 82.5 EUR / $100 US:

X15 thru axle for ROCKSHOX fork









I'm now disassembling the Epic FSR, and I'll be more careful to weigh some of the stuff I've missed in the past like BB etc. Hopefully next few posts won't be too boring.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Absoluteblack Top Cap*

Another part arrived this week, the Absoluteblack Top Cap:
https://absoluteblack.cc/top-cap.html

An interesting idea, as it integrates the bolt and cap in a single piece.









Claim is 4g and it flip-flops between 3-4g on my scale:









My existing MCFK top cap (carbon chip & bolt) appeared to have a slight crack after several seasons, so I thought I'd give the Absoluteblack a shot. For reference, the MCFK assembly was 5g:


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## Dangerholm (Sep 10, 2017)

Coming along nicely!

The lightest rim tape I've come across is Orange Seal, but most tapes seem to be of similar weight. But as mentioned above, quite a lot of weight can be saved compared to various strips (Bontrager strips are also quite heavy for example).

Good choice on the Extralite axle too, I've used several with no issue. Been running the ShiftUp carbon on one bike, and also broken one in a crash. Hard to tell if a lightweight alu axle would've survived but I think so, funny thing is that the carbon part held up but the alu is very thin where the thread ends and the carbon starts and that's where it snapped.


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

I've been using the absolute ahead cap for a few years. just make sure the star fangled nut/steerer expander is in straight, or the ahead cap wont seat flat


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks scant - I should be fine as I use an expander which can't go in off-angle.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Black Lock & Rocket Rons*

Have a couple more things, and should have some time to actually build.

The Extralite Black Lock arrived. Claim is 29g, and this is 28g on my scale:









Next up are the tires, and the weights are inevitably disappointing. Given the season, I'm going to mount some Rocket Rons. These aren't as light as the Thunder Burts, but I want a different pattern. The claim for these Liteskin versions (29 X 2.25) is 520g, but mine are 551g and 573g respectively - ouch!

























It never ceases to amaze me how much variance there is with tires. Put "X" amount of tire goop in the mold each time, but wind up with 20 very different weights. The only other thing I can think of, is that Schwalbe is now showcasing their "Addix" compounds, denoted by the color-coded stripes. The ones I bought were the previous, unstriped Evolution version, so I wonder if the Addix compound is lighter?

Anyway, these slightly older versions of the Rocket Ron are super-inexpensive now that the Addix versions are out, so I couldn't resist.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Those Rocket Rons roll pretty darn fast though. Probably not as fast as the Thunder Burts you had before...but these got good traction though.

They do measure on the narrow side though. Mine measured out to ~2.14 with 21psi on 22mm IW rims.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks RS - I don't have calipers - but I'll try to get a sense of how wide (narrow) they run. These are heavier than some tires, but I'll really need something chunkier for the next months.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*I'm Stupid: Bottom Bracket & Di2 Wiring*

As the post title suggests, I'm stupid. Allow me to elaborate...

I've disassembled the 2016 Epic (FSR), and can finally start to build up the 2018 Epic (Hardtail). In my build, the core frame weighs 940g:









As for details, this includes the rear derailleur hanger. It does not include the front derailleur mount (running 1X), the chainstay cable stop (running Di2 internally), the under BB cable routing (not needed), and a rubber stopper on the seat tube (as the Di2 wire will use that opening - it is also there for FD cabling). All these are weighed in an earlier post, and it's nice to be able to drop some of the weight for unneeded items, especially the FD mount.

It also does not include the stock seat binder, as I'll be using the MCFK "sub-5" model, which is oddly 6g:








_Caption: Yep, it is just two, thin carbon straps._

So, depending on how you measure typical frame weight, it is ~946g.

OK, so I removed the Chris King bottom bracket from the old frame, and use the injector tool to relube/flush the bearings while still in the cups:









This is super-handy. Also, I have no idea how the Chris King compares in terms of weight, but I'd use it regardless of weight as it has been creak/squeak free since day 1, which is sometimes rare with PF30 frames. I've tried several other BBs in the past, and this has been bullet proof. In any event, the cups, sleeve, bearings, etc, amount to 105g:









Those are the non-ceramic bearings BTW, and I think the secret to success with the Chris King BB is the alloy cups versus plastic (Delrin) on some others I've used in the past.

OK, so I've cleaned the BB and bearings, and carefully press it into the frame. Nice! Job done! 

Next I take the rear brake line, and run it through the opening in the non-driveside chainstay, slide it through, up the downtube, and out the cable opening in the head tube area:

























Here's where I'll give myself a pat on the back before confirming my stupidity. If you look at the picture just above, you'll see a time-saver, or mostly mess-saver that I decided to try. I move hydraulic brake lines from bike-to-bike, and for internal cabling you must disconnect one end. I've done my best to drain the lines in the past, but inevitably it will drip, and make a mess. I've tried to tape over the end, but it just gets awkward.

In this case, I found a tiny screw that nicely wedged into the end of the line, making a decent seal - circled in red. This allowed a clean cable routing, and I'll use this method in future. *

Build Points (TM) awarded: +2.*

This is going great! 

Now to pre-wire the Di2 before I start putting everything else on the frame. Hmmm, I should have remembered that this frame does not have a hatch underneath the BB area like the 2016 S-Works Epic, and 2015 S-Works Stumpjumper frames. It merely has some cable routing exits:









Damn, how the hell am I going to do this???!!! I tried a couple of times to attach the flimsy Di2 wire (a.k.a. etubes) to an unused cable housing and fish it through, but there's no way to do this around the tight bend near the BB. Geez, this is really hard - I think this bike is offered in a Di2 option, how the heck does Specialized do it?

Well, they definitely don't start by installing the bottom bracket first! I thought I recalled some cutouts in the BB area, and sure enough after hammering out the just-installed BB (using this BTW - great tool), we see the cutouts:









*Build Points (TM) awarded: -5.* 

And guess what? It's super easy now to route it. It's almost as if that's how you're supposed to do it - duh!!!!

In my case I'll use the same setup as on the 2016 Epic: front shifter, rear derailleur, battery, and external junction all connect to the 4 ports on the internal mini-junction shown, and I tuck it into the frame:









Now to (re) install that bottom bracket...


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Adding Weight & Dropping Weight: Brakes, Fork, Torque Caps*

Oddly enough, I've never used Ashima Ai2 rotors. Crazy right? They are probably the best price to weight ratio out there.

To date, I have tried rotors from Magura, Formula, Kettle (carbon failures), KCNC, and Dartmoor (original Ashima knock-offs). Speaking of the Dartmoors, here are the outgoing rotors @ 83g (160mm):








_I guess the black looked kinda good, but I'm going with Ai2._

... and while well known, here are an equivalent Ai2 @ 72g, so nice to shed 11g per wheel:









Oh, and in case you were wondering, the bolts that ship with the Ai2 retail package are not Ti. A set of 6 weighs 12g:









While my previous Ti bolts, still slathered in anti-seize compound, save me 5g per wheel @ 7g:









Next, I'll gladly add a bit of weight by rolling an o-ring onto the fork, just below the crown. I first came across this with SID Brain forks back in 2013 (-ish?). While it's a measly 3g, it nicely seals up the lower bearing area which is far more prone to water ingress IME:









...and here's a shot of the head tube area so you can see how the o-ring sits - it does not interfere with the steerer movement:









Lastly, and completely unrelated in this mish-mash post, are the torque caps. RockShox has increased the size of the hub interface with several of their forks over the past several years. Not a requirement, but since my Roval Control SL 148 wheelset came with the caps, I figured I'd give them a try. Outgoing are the regular caps @ 10g:









..and adding more weight are the Torque Caps (not to be confused with the Torque Tube hub required for the RS-1 fork), which show a visibly larger interface, but add 10g to the front hub assembly:









Still more to come as the build is progressing...


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Lenny7 said:


> That is impressive. I just built up a generic large asian carbon 29er and it clocked in around 1150g. My finished build was just under 22 lbs. I do endurance races so have to have my boat anchor saddle and ergon grips.


Sorry Lenny - Missed this reply. Yep, you can't really give up comfort in the saddle (especially for Endurance), and bad grips can leave you in pain too. Tires are the 3rd piece - sometimes you can get away with light race-day-only rubber, but if conditions are bad you're screwed.

I'll cover the saddle and grips in future posts. Guaranteed you'll hate my saddle!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Dangerholm said:


> Coming along nicely!
> 
> The lightest rim tape I've come across is Orange Seal, but most tapes seem to be of similar weight. But as mentioned above, quite a lot of weight can be saved compared to various strips (Bontrager strips are also quite heavy for example).
> 
> Good choice on the Extralite axle too, I've used several with no issue. Been running the ShiftUp carbon on one bike, and also broken one in a crash. Hard to tell if a lightweight alu axle would've survived but I think so, funny thing is that the carbon part held up but the alu is very thin where the thread ends and the carbon starts and that's where it snapped.


Sorry, missed this too Danger. Geez, that's a scary failure. I suppose it failed where you'd expect.

Do they offer warranty replacement? Also, how much is your body weight, kitted up?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Fork, Headset, Back to OEM Binder*

Moving forward, I've installed the fork.

First off was the removal of the stock white decals, and switch to the included "stealth" version:









Cutting the steerer shed 29g:









...which brings the SID World Cup down to 1397g, the lightest SID I've used to date:









Next, the headset assembly. In the past I've used a Cane Creek 110 series lower bearing, which is a few grams lighter than the stock from "TH Industries" that Specialized ships with the frame. In this case I figured I'd stick with the stock headset assembly (but with Absoluteblack top cap/bolt). The bits total 70g:









Last shot are the spacers. Although there has been some debate, Rockshox specifies that carbon steerer should be cut flush with the top of the stem, not going slightly below the stem in order to accommodate the top cap. (For non-carbon they don't specify.) So below are 3 - 5mm spacers along with a 2mm which goes on top of the stem, allowing for the cap. 5g:









On an unrelated note, I'll have to use the stock Specialized binder, @ 11g. The MCFK "Sub-5" (weighs 6g) doesn't line up properly:


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

Lookin’ awesome!!!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks, here's the partial build:


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Close to Complete - Misc Parts*

I'm pretty much done at this point.

I've moved several of these parts from bike to bike, so I'll recycle some photos. You've seen these if you've followed recent builds, but I'll include them for completeness:

MCFK saddle @ 70g:









MCFK bar, 119g:









MCFK straight seatpost and carbon arch @ 106g:









MCFK stem, 76g:









S-Works (Lightining) cranks, 373g (including spider nut) - older red versions:









...and RaceFace crank boots, weighing 17g, but mandatory IMO:









...and a shot of the Wolftooth 32T spiderless ring @ 71g (on the newer grey cranks):









MCFK Expander for the fork steerer, 12g:









*Next up:* The Di2 stuff crammed in, then final bike weight.


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## ljsmith (Oct 26, 2007)

phlegm said:


> Have a couple more things, and should have some time to actually build.
> 
> The Extralite Black Lock arrived. Claim is 29g, and this is 28g on my scale:
> 
> ...


The Addix compound is much heavier. They did not update the weight specs though, so it leads to quite a dissapointment. I just got some Furious Fred Addix tires and they are about 50g heavier than my Pacestar FFs.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

ljsmith said:


> The Addix compound is much heavier. They did not update the weight specs though, so it leads to quite a dissapointment. I just got some Furious Fred Addix tires and they are about 50g heavier than my Pacestar FFs.


Damn, that's even more disappointing then. Thx for the heads up.


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Di2 Stuff*

Thought I'd post the Di2 elements as I got a PM about it, and offer details on the internal routing.

First off, I'm routing things identically to the 2016 Epic FSR. This cheesy MS Paint-based diagram shows a green etube coming from the front shifter, orange from the rear derailleur, and blue from the seatpost battery joining an internal 4-port junction box, aka "B Junction". In the case of the 2018 Epic, in an earlier post you can see me tucking that junction inside the BB area. They all then route externally via the yellow etube to an external "A Junction" for charging and adjusting:









On the 2018 Epic specifically, a hole on the seat tube allows that last wire to come out of the frame to that external junction:








_ I'd prefer a fully stealth Di2 setup like I had on an earlier frame, but this is the best you can do on this one. The hole shown would facilitate the front derailleur. _

Next pic is where the etube leaves the chainstay (after removing the cable stop), and is exposed en route to the RD:








_I cover the etube in shrink wrap for extra protection, and to make it a bit thicker so it doesn't droop as much._

Here you can see the shifter etube being combined with the front brake line, and running into the frame inside chunky shrinkwrap:















_It may be hard to see, but given the cable entry is right near the head tube area (as opposed to further down the downtube on earlier models), the cables make a funky bend when turning left. I may just have to turn right more often._ 

Now here are the individual weights of the Di2 components for reference:

External, junction "A" at 9g:








_Damn, I forgot to weight the rubber strap that attaches it to the frame!_

You use Di2 dummy plugs to fill any unused ports, especially on external items. I use 2 on the Junction "A". 7 of them fluctuate between 2 & 3g on my scale, so let's say they weigh .4g each:








_I use 2 of these on the external junction, just under 1g probably._

The rear XTR Di2 derailleur is heavier than its non-digital counterpart, and weighs 290g:









...but this is nicely offset by a crazy-light front shifter (a.k.a. "switch) which is only 64g:








_You can swap out the springs to make the shifting clicks lighter, but in IMO it closely matches its mechanical cousin in terms of feel._

Here's the battery, 51g, which is tucked in the seatpost with a rubber mount weighing 7g:
















Next is the external 4-port junction, which is tiny, and only 4g:









...and finally an assortment of wires (etubes):

The longest for this build (front shifter to junction) is 600mm and 7g:









Next is 500mm (RD to junction), 6g:









Seatpost battery to junction is 250mm, 3g:









..and the little baby one, from internal junction to external junction, 150mm, 2g:









I calculated a handy formula if you want to predetermine your etube weight on a build:

*g = (X / 100) + 1*

where "g" is the weight in grams of the wire, and "X" is the length of the wire in mm. It is a pretty close calculation.

*Next up*: Final weight as-is, and potential "minimum" weight!


----------



## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Current Weight*

OK, finally on the scale: *17.42 lbs / 7.9kg
*








I'm actually very pleased because this configuration is stashing a battery in the seat post, and is using among the chunkier tires I've used.

Full pic:









In terms of a lighter, typical configuration, in the summer months I can switch back to Thunder Burt tires. This example is 444g:









So, based on that, I can easily shed 200g+ just on the rubber from the Rocket Rons, which would drop the bike to sub-17 lbs.

Thanks for all the input. I still have some random comments and observations to go.


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

killer bike, congrats


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## Lenny7 (Sep 1, 2008)

That is sexy.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

phlegm said:


> OK, finally on the scale: *17.42 lbs / 7.9kg
> *
> View attachment 1160900
> 
> ...


Nice!!


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

Wow! Awesome, beautiful build man.


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## rumblytumbly (Jun 5, 2013)

Awesome build. You'll enjoy the AI2 rotors. They give you a subtle audible cue to your deceleration rate (tick, tick, tick, tick,,tick,,,tick,,,,tick). Never any problems with mine, plenty of power.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Mine overheat quick on extended downhills. I use them on my fatbike for winter and they are usually great there. For flat midwestern XC, they'd be fine, for anything with longer descents, I'd stay away. Bad fade/glazing issues with hard braking. Maybe better with bigger rotor sizes, but then that negates your weight savings to some extent.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Might depend on how heavy you are and how steep the descents are too. I'm #145 and so far the Ai2's haven't given me any problems. I think the longest descent I've taken my bike with the Ai2's are about 6 miles down. Even with hard braking into turns...I haven't really come into brake fade problems. Now if you're dragging the brakes...then that's where I can see them really heating up.


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## Dangerholm (Sep 10, 2017)

Well this turned out great! Congrats on the build, really light but still quite bomb proof.
Wheels and fork goes great with the frame, and the MCFK parts is a nice touch. That seat is a favorite for sure.

Very tempted to go Di2 for my next build, just need to figure out a good way to go completely stealth.

About the axle, it was a relatively high speed crash (30km/h) and I also ripped the front brake hose off and so on. So I actually didn't even ask for a replacement, it really was a **** happens scenario and it was way out of "normal riding". I have been meaning to tell them where it broke though, would be such an easy section to reinforce a bit.
I'm around 75-78kg in the summer, so no heavy weight haha.
Their customer service is great though, fast replies and fast service, and I've been happy with my damper cartridge from them.


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

Awesome build. I'm looking for something to supplement my Top Fuel for shorter events or stuff with lots of climbing and this looks just about perfect. Is that a size large frame?

And a note on the Ashima rotors: I weigh 175#. I'm from Florida. I used them for ORAMM this year including a 30+ minute descent of the Heartbreak Enduro stage of Pisgah. No issues with the rotors fading one bit, even with Organic Pads on SRAM level brakes. Those rotors are a great way to cut weight IMO, alot better $/g ratio than some of the other things I've tried:
https://blog.bikeminded.com/the-analyzer-presents-top-fuel-diet-series-axles/


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks for all the kind comments folks, appreciated!

I keep forgetting that the frame and wheels are boost-based, so especially pleased with the final weight. It is a fully raceable, every day rideable build, with only compromise being the saddle, which isn't for everyone I realize. However in my case it fits and flexes nicely.

I have noticed a weird waviness to the Absoluteblack top cap. I'm working with them to sort that out, and will keep you posted. I'll post some pics shortly, as I need to adjust my stem anyway - it's off center by 1-2 degrees and is driving me nuts!



pinkpowa said:


> Awesome build. I'm looking for something to supplement my Top Fuel for shorter events or stuff with lots of climbing and this looks just about perfect. Is that a size large frame?...[/url]


Yep, size Large frame. Good pics on your blog, BTW.


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## smitty39 (Sep 8, 2016)

Great job on the build and thanks for all the details and pics. Gives us all some ideas for upgrades and future builds. 

I was feeling really awesome about getting my HT down to 19.8 lbs race-ready, then I saw this!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Dangerholm said:


> ...
> 
> Very tempted to go Di2 for my next build, just need to figure out a good way to go completely stealth.
> 
> ...


Stealth can be done, and TBH I would have preferred it for this build. You just need to squeeze a Junction "A" (the bigger one with 3 ports) into the frame somehow. The other trick is ensuring it is accessible for charging.

Have a look at my older build (the relevant bits start around post #65 or so). I made it work, but had to sand down the junction!

http://forums.mtbr.com/weight-weenies/new-build-2015-s-works-stumpjumper-ht-xtr-di2-992587.html


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

smitty39 said:


> Great job on the build and thanks for all the details and pics. Gives us all some ideas for upgrades and future builds.
> 
> I was feeling really awesome about getting my HT down to 19.8 lbs race-ready, then I saw this!


Ha - sorry man!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Forgotten Items*

For completeness I'll post scale shots of things not previously mentioned.

Front and rear XTR brakes, lines cut. I also removed another 2g segment when cutting for this frame, so call it 380g although shot says 382g:









SRAM X01 cassette @ 265g:









KMC DLC 11 chain, 228g with MissingLink:









Scoop of Stans fluid for each tire (adjusted for scoop), 56g:








_I used to skimp, and try 1/2 a scoop per tire, but now I don't give a crap._

ESI Chunky (top), credit to *RS VR6* for the pic with a more accurate scale, 31.7g each with end plug:









I don't have shots of my own for the the following:

Crank Bros Eggbeater 11 pedals - 179g (pair, claimed)

Ti Brake Caliper bolts - 13g (front and rear, with anti-seize slathered on)

I think that covers it. I received a PM to post a build sheet, so I'll clean it up, and do that next.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Build Sheet*

Here's the build sheet. It's actually pretty close as it totals to 7.86 kg, whereas the scale weight is 7.90 (both rounded).

Not sure where the ~40g is missing from, but that's typical of build lists and scale inaccuracy. I think someone once calculated a couple of grams of air in each tire - ha!








_
Much easier to read when clicked on._


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## ghettocop (Jul 26, 2011)

Nicely done! Great detailed build thread too.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Cheers, thanks for the kind comment!


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## jbadger1977 (Jan 17, 2015)

Impressive build. Well done, sir!!1


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## smitty39 (Sep 8, 2016)

Looking forward to the first ride report. This thing's gotta feel like a rocket.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

jbadger1977 said:


> Impressive build. Well done, sir!!1





smitty39 said:


> Looking forward to the first ride report. This thing's gotta feel like a rocket.


Thanks for the comments!

I've done a few rides on it, and I really like it. Seems to be more compliant than the 2015 HT, and the 2013. Part if it could be the slightly wider tires this time around.

Typically when I switch from FS to HT (and I switch back and forth a lot), I dislike the punishment on the HT, but so far so good. Surprisingly really.

On an unrelated note, I'm still working with Absoluteblack re the Top Cap. Interesting that it waves a bit under tension, then reverts to flat upon removal. Somehow it isn't getting even pressure we suspect. I'll post more details shortly. Their support has been great, and responsive so far.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Couple of updates:

1. I'll post some pics of the Absoluteblack top cap. Their support has been great, and we think it is related to uneven contact on a spacer. 

2. I just received my Chameleon Skin wrap kit. I'll do an overview on it, and determine the exact weight it adds by doing a before/after on the materials.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Chameleon Skin Wrap*

As promised, here are some details on the bike wrap. To this point I've used mat Invisiframe and Frameskin wraps, which were both fine.

In this case I ordered a gloss kit given the frame treatment. I must say that Chameleon Skin offers the best diagram thus far, with caveats to the left and a numbered sequence which makes sense:









There are some pretty large pieces in this kit, and I've found that the bigger bits are the toughest to get right. I also typically run out of patience with these.

In any event, here is the weigh of the entire kit, with all the bits - 101g:









...and the leftover backing (I used all the pieces) weighs 38g:









... meaning the protection kit adds 63g, but it is well-needed.

On a related note, I only wish I had applied this sooner. In a moment of idiocy I scraped the inside of the chainstay with the rotor as I was re-installing the wheel - and it sliced the paint a bit - GRRRRRRR! (I won't show a picture of this given the bad memories it will give me.) Chameleon skin even offers an extra "rotor protection piece" (bottom right in above diagram) as if they knew this would happen - ARRRRGH!


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## Dangerholm (Sep 10, 2017)

Haha I feel your pain man!
The first scratch is always the worst, after that it's not too bad.
I vividly remember last year, having built this super nice Fuel EX 9.9... It was just perfect, and on one of the first rides I had parked it against a tree but the wind took it and it fell against a rock making a nice long scratch on the seat stay...

Hope you post some pics of it taken in the wild too!


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## Tib7 (Oct 27, 2017)

Hello,

Very nice bike ! Do you think the MFCK stem is reliable for real MTB ride ?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I've been using the MCFK stem for "real" riding for 3-4 years now, so yes.


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## m3bas (Dec 24, 2011)

Do you run a FS bike as well as this?
I'm seriously considering going back to HT with one of these, problem is no demo HT's available.
Like the idea of an 8kg super stiff bike, unsure if I'll miss the rear suspension though towards the end of a race.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I've switched back and forth a few times between FS & HT. I love the climbing on the HTs, but dislike the rear end jumpiness on quick, bumpy descents.

I love the added compliance an XC FS bike like the Epic offers, but it always feels heavier and less efficient than the HT (which I realize is ridiculous when I've built ~21 lb FS bikes).

So far though, I *feel* like this is the best bike I've ever built. First time in about 10 years being "brainless", but I don't think I miss it/them. The frame on this 2018 Epic HT seems to offer some extra compliance, which is amazing. I may not go back after this. I think if everyone had the opportunity to ride this hardtail, they'd be eliminating a fair number of FS XC bikes.


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## m3bas (Dec 24, 2011)

Good feedback, thank you.


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

Questions?

Is that the shorter cage version of the XTR rear der? Would it shift with an E13 9-46 cassette?
Did you shrink wrap the entire length of Etube housing from frame to rear derailleur? Or just a portion?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yep, it's the "medium" cage, so shorter.

The relevant formula for you is "0 + (46T-9T) = 37T". Looks like you'd want the larger SGS given Shimano's specs:
RD-M9050

In my case with the XG-1195 cassette, and a "32T" capacity result, I'm fine with the GS.

I just shrink wrap the exposed parts outside the frame (with a bit of overlap inside the frame). This is for protection, and it makes it less flimsy so it routes better externally.


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## bootsie_cat (Nov 3, 2004)

What wire lengths did you use inside the frame?

I am considering a similar mod on an Epic Hardtail, but I will use a road internal battery and road style junction a box on the stem.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

bootsie_cat said:


> What wire lengths did you use inside the frame?
> 
> I am considering a similar mod on an Epic Hardtail, but I will use a road internal battery and road style junction a box on the stem.


Post #50 has a wiring diagram, along with etube lengths and weights - hopefully that helps your build.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Spring! Ride reports soon.


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## pinkpowa (Jun 24, 2007)

How's it riding?


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Geez, forgot to post anything! 

It is riding great - probably the best hardtail I've ever ridden, and certainly better than the previous Stumpy HT. I like the slightly slacker setup, and I'm not noticing anything negative on climbs as a result. 

I *think* I can feel some of the rear end compliance that was claimed, but that could be BS, and all in my head.

I'm very pleased with it so far, and could actually be the best bike I've ridden all up, hardtail or otherwise.


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## Tib7 (Oct 27, 2017)

I have exactly the same feeling. Epic S-Works HT is simply the best HT frame I ever rode.










Mine weights 6,480 kg with the Garmin.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Tib7 said:


> I have exactly the same feeling. Epic S-Works HT is simply the best HT frame I ever rode.
> 
> ...
> 
> Mine weights 6,480 kg with the Garmin.


Assuming you mean g. 

If indeed true, that's 14.3 lbs. I'd want to see full build details on that.


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## Tib7 (Oct 27, 2017)

Here is the full built and weight measured on my Topeak pro stand :










Sorry, I'm french. Built details are in french.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Ah, that 1104g wheelset along with the rigid fork is the key. Some nice choices! What's the max rider weight on that wheelset BTW?

Also, looks like you are the only person in the world to find Schwalbe tires at below, or even near stated mfg weight.


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## Tib7 (Oct 27, 2017)

No rider limit for the wheelset, but I think 90 kg is a reasonable limit.

Weight of Schwalbe tyres : tires sorted out of many tires, EVO version (not Snakeskin) for the Rocket Ron.

Do you see the pics of my bike I posted ? I don't see them on my professional PC.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yep, see the specs, but not the picture above it.


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## Tib7 (Oct 27, 2017)




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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nice!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I've ordered a Schmolke bar as I want to go a bit wider. It should allow me to do this while actually dropping a bit of weight.

I'll post the obligatory scale shots once I receive it.


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## rbrbrb (Apr 10, 2018)

phlegm said:


> Sorry for the delays here as I actually had a life for a while.
> 
> Wheelset arrived with tape pre-installed as is always the case. Nicer black tape instead of the previous brownish stuff, and the job is perfectly done, with minimal overlap. I wanted to rip this off to test the plugs, but it's just too nicely done. Maybe if/when the tape tears.
> 
> ...


I have the same wheelset and mine measured 1430g with tape and valves. I decided to remove the black rim tape/strip. Its non adhesive and weighed 30g per wheel. Installed some stans yellow tape which weighed 5g per wheel so 50g can be dropped there.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Wow, surprising to hear that the OEM tape is that much more than Stans. I may do a swap at some point.


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## tetonrider (May 25, 2009)

phlegm said:


> Wow, surprising to hear that the OEM tape is that much more than Stans. I may do a swap at some point.


Yes--The Specialized rim tape is easy to remove (use a butter knife -- you can always re-apply it if you like). It is 25g per wheel -- much higher than even a double wrap of Stan's tape or the Roval plugs.

Are you using Roval plugs in a non-Roval wheel?

I only ask because I know not all Roval wheels are designed to be used with them.


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## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

Tib7 said:


> View attachment 1201575


That bike looks great!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

tetonrider said:


> Yes--The Specialized rim tape is easy to remove (use a butter knife -- you can always re-apply it if you like). It is 25g per wheel -- much higher than even a double wrap of Stan's tape or the Roval plugs.
> 
> Are you using Roval plugs in a non-Roval wheel?
> 
> I only ask because I know not all Roval wheels are designed to be used with them.


They are Rovals - forgot about the plugs. I might do some experimenting next season.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

phlegm said:


> Geez, forgot to post anything!
> 
> It is riding great - probably the best hardtail I've ever ridden, and certainly better than the previous Stumpy HT. I like the slightly slacker setup, and I'm not noticing anything negative on climbs as a result.
> 
> ...


Amazing build and work as usual from you. Great job!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Cheers! BTW, I just got the Schmolke TLO bar, so I'll post details soon.


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## Fastskiguy (Jan 15, 2004)

This might be an odd question here but...would it be possible to put a 27.5# (in the 2.8" range) on the back with this frame? Thanks


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Fastskiguy said:


> This might be an odd question here but...would it be possible to put a 27.5# (in the 2.8" range) on the back with this frame? Thanks


There's ~2.5" between the stays back there.


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## Fastskiguy (Jan 15, 2004)

Thank you Sir!


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

phlegm said:


> I've switched back and forth a few times between FS & HT. I love the climbing on the HTs, but dislike the rear end jumpiness on quick, bumpy descents.
> 
> I love the added compliance an XC FS bike like the Epic offers, but it always feels heavier and less efficient than the HT (which I realize is ridiculous when I've built ~21 lb FS bikes).
> 
> So far though, I *feel* like this is the best bike I've ever built. First time in about 10 years being "brainless", but I don't think I miss it/them. The frame on this 2018 Epic HT seems to offer some extra compliance, which is amazing. I may not go back after this. I think if everyone had the opportunity to ride this hardtail, they'd be eliminating a fair number of FS XC bikes.


Hi Everyone.

I'm count on exactly this ^^ First off props to phlegm. He inspired me in part to use this platform. I just landed a new 2018 S-Works HT frameset with SID WC Brain fork, S-Works post, S-Works seat, S-Works Stem, massive S-Works 780mm bars and C-Bear Ceramic BB and am planning to finish the project over the next 30 days or so. This is my first "potential" sub 20 lb bike. I've have a light Scott Spark at 22.3 lbs, and an Epic S-Works at 22.56 in years past but nothing this light. I had to sell my other HT to finance this project but the deal was far too good to pass up. Even at 56 years old I love having an HT and race on occasion, and while my old HT is light at 21.5 with pedals (all carbon but not a high-mod) Unlike many of you I cannot afford to go exotic parts, but hope to get there with more common parts like the bike comes with. I have calculated my build in size L. Below is what I plan to buy but I may tweak it a bit as I go along. I have thee DT XMC-1200 wheels 25ID. Two are on my Primer, so I plan to share the rear wheel only between both bikes just until I can get another wheel. All three are Boost so I'm good there. I have a set of SRAM Level TLM brakes to use just until I get some Magura. I really like the Magura stuff and likely will run MT8 NEXT on the HT at some point. The Levels are fairly light in the meantime. Lastly, I also have a set of XTR Race pedals. Here is parts I think I still need to complete the project;

Crankset; XX1 Eagle 32T DM Boost BB30 
Chain; XX1 Black (already have Eagle X01 cassette) 
X01 Eagle Shifter, Blk; 4 grams heavier than XX1 and a lot less cake
X01 Eagle RD, Blk; 12 grams over XX1, again less cake
ESI Chunky Grips, in Black
Tires; FT 2.3 or Aspen 2.3 up front, I have a new Ardent Race 2.2 on rear wheel.

I estimate the bike to weigh right around 20.2lbs with pedals and a fair dose of Stans. 19.55 with no pedals. My estimate takes into consideration my wheels are a bit heavier than Control SL and a small consideration for assorted part selection and bars (I will cut them likely to 740, post may get trimmed a bit too). What am I missing? Any tips or suggestions? Any low hanging fruit to get me slightly under 20?

Thanks much.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Great - keep us posted as the build goes.

Also let me know if you find any of those plugs for the head tube holes - my frame didn't come with any.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

phlegm said:


> Great - keep us posted as the build goes.
> 
> Also let me know if you find any of those plugs for the head tube holes - my frame didn't come with any.


Yea my frame did. Weird some did and some not. I'll sniff around and if I find where to source I'll hit you up


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

All done. Custom build and I went with heavier rotors and have not trimmed seat post or bars but you get the idea. 19.6 lbs and 20.28 w XTR race pedals. I have not ridden it yet as it's about 106 today but hope to Friday. Lightest Mtb I've ever had. About 1.2 under my Fsi even with the substantial XMC wheels and 180 rotors. Brake swap and gently trim the post & bars and I'll drop about .4 lbs. My estimated weight was pretty close!



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## COMTBR (Jul 18, 2016)

^^ Nice!!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Excellent!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Reminds me, I have to grab some scale shots of the Schmolke bar.


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## tetonrider (May 25, 2009)

trmn8er said:


> All done. Custom build and I went with heavier rotors and have not trimmed seat post or bars but you get the idea. 19.6 lbs and 20.28 w XTR race pedals. I have not ridden it yet as it's about 106 today but hope to Friday. Lightest Mtb I've ever had. About 1.2 under my Fsi even with the substantial XMC wheels and 180 rotors. Brake swap and gently trim the post & bars and I'll drop about .4 lbs. My estimated weight was pretty close!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice. What size frame? What wheels and tires are those? Sealant included?

Mine is a large with an SRM power meter and Di2....slightly heavier than 20.5 but also had real world tires and sealant.

Amazing to have a CAPABLE FS bike at anywhere near these weights. Incredible.


----------



## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

Thank you guys! Super excited to climb with this beast. I have Eagle 34/10/50 on my Primer and sometimes wish for a 32T up front but I suspect I may wish I had a 34 on this bike. Even here in So-Cal the 32 may be too low for a HT.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

tetonrider said:


> Nice. What size frame? What wheels and tires are those? Sealant included?
> 
> Mine is a large with an SRM power meter and Di2....slightly heavier than 20.5 but also had real world tires and sealant.
> 
> Amazing to have a CAPABLE FS bike at anywhere near these weights. Incredible.


Thank you, it's a size Large with quite a bit of sealant. I usually do about 1.5 red cups per tire. The wheels are DT Swiss XMC1200 Boost 24mm internally w spline hubs straight-pull spokes. They are not the lightest wheels but they are fairly light and SUPER strong. I run them on my Primer and I flog that bike. I have 1200 miles on it and wheels are perfect. Honestly I had NEVER yet had an issue with DT based hubs and I'm not light at just over 200lbs. The can easily accommodate a 2.4 so I have no need for anything wider. Tires are Ardent Race and Aspen, both 2.25, both w EXO protection so again not the lightest.


----------



## j102 (Jan 14, 2018)

trmn8er said:


> All done. Custom build and I went with heavier rotors and have not trimmed seat post or bars but you get the idea. 19.6 lbs and 20.28 w XTR race pedals. I have not ridden it yet as it's about 106 today but hope to Friday. Lightest Mtb I've ever had. About 1.2 under my Fsi even with the substantial XMC wheels and 180 rotors. Brake swap and gently trim the post & bars and I'll drop about .4 lbs. My estimated weight was pretty close!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful!


----------



## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

Thank you all especially Phlegm for the inspiration! You guys build some amazing rides.


----------



## tetonrider (May 25, 2009)

trmn8er said:


> Thank you, it's a size Large with quite a bit of sealant. I usually do about 1.5 red cups per tire. The wheels are DT Swiss XMC1200 Boost 24mm internally w spline hubs straight-pull spokes. They are not the lightest wheels but they are fairly light and SUPER strong. I run them on my Primer and I flog that bike. I have 1200 miles on it and wheels are perfect. Honestly I had NEVER yet had an issue with DT based hubs and I'm not light at just over 200lbs. The can easily accommodate a 2.4 so I have no need for anything wider. Tires are Ardent Race and Aspen, both 2.25, both w EXO protection so again not the lightest.


Gotta apologize -- I've been following the Epic FS thread and when I checked on my mobile device didn't see you were talking about the Epic HT. Yours looks great.

Also, I see you mentioned the wheels and tires in your earlier post.

I'm a fan of light builds, but also *functional* builds. I respect your decision to go with something stronger when you know your history.

The Epic HT is the best HT I've ever owned. I built mine up as a SS (7.47kg/16.5# with pedals and an SRM power meter but no spare stuff)... tires on the narrower side (2.0 front, 1.95 rear).

I'm thinking of swapping over to 2.25-2.35 tires that would add weight but likely make it way more versatile, esp without rear suspension. They wider tires will be fine on the 25mm internal width Control SLs.

Hope you enjoy yours!


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

tetonrider said:


> Gotta apologize -- I've been following the Epic FS thread and when I checked on my mobile device didn't see you were talking about the Epic HT. Yours looks great.
> 
> Also, I see you mentioned the wheels and tires in your earlier post.
> 
> ...


Thanks tetonrider all good. As for the 2.25/2.35 tires, I'm with ya. If I was light rider maybe I'd be more inclined to run a slightly smaller tire, but I know smaller riders who also prefer more tire. To me, it really does make the bike more versatile as you mention. I was a bit shocked to see the rear tire is pretty close to the seat tube! Maybe a little over 1/2 inch clearance. Chainstays a bit more but yeah they built this frame tight to save weight I suppose. Regardless, the largest tire I would use on a bike like this would be a 2.35 and I suspect I could run that with no clearance issues. The DT XMC can easily support a 2.35 properly.

BTW mandatory scale shot


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Schmolke TLO Bar*

Sorry for the long delay here. I finally got around to swapping out the MCFK bar, and have installed the Schmolke TLO.

Here's an older shot of the outgoing bar, an admittedly narrow 620mm @119g:









Makes it 0.192g/mm - if that's a thing.

Inbound is the TLO bar, 740mm @ 132g:









That is 0.178g/mm FWIW.

Haven't ridden it yet, and it gives me about 1/2 a hand extra on either side. My local trail has some very narrow bits, and I already enjoy clipping the odd bar, but I'm keen to try this out.

One casualty is an ESI chunky grip. The Di2 shifter (switch) doesn't have a clamp that opens, so the only way to remove it is to kill the grip. One is 26g BTW:









...and here's an old pic of the Di2 shifter, which is just a ring with a grub screw underneath to keep it from moving:









Man, just me, or are the ESI grips really friggin' hard to put on?!


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## Fastskiguy (Jan 15, 2004)

I use an air compressor and they slide on pretty easily. Sometimes spin though.


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)




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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yep, followed the directions, using alcohol initially, and they wouldn't budge. Moved to a drop-of-soap-in-water-sprayer deal and that gave me just enough, but had to wrestle it the whole way.

The edges of the TLO bar are pretty sharp - not unfinished, but thin, so I think that didn't help any.

Didn't try air - will do next time.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I use ample bodily fluids (spit) and it goes on relatively easily every time. They come off pretty easily too with a bit of coaxing from a piece or round smooth rod (think wooden chopstick). Just slide the chopstick under the grip all the way through and then spit into the gap all around the grip to "lubricate" the inside of the grip. 

And they never slide/turn/rotate on my while riding.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

BlownCivic said:


> I use ample bodily fluids (spit) and it goes on relatively easily every time. They come off pretty easily too with a bit of coaxing from a piece or round smooth rod (think wooden chopstick). Just slide the chopstick under the grip all the way through and then spit into the gap all around the grip to "lubricate" the inside of the grip.
> 
> And they never slide/turn/rotate on my while riding.


Ah, another good idea, cheers.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Some quick impressions after my first ride: went from 620 to 740mm, and as expected it felt odd. I really liked how it felt on descents, but I did find myself slightly over-turning as it takes less effort to steer, which I suppose is the whole point. I should get used to that easily enough. My local trail is not well-traveled so it is over-grown in spots and narrow and I definitely felt like I was going to clip the bars a few times, but probably just my imagination.

As for the Schmolke TLO bar itself, there is zero deflection that I can sense, which is expected. Pretty impressive that it is lighter for any given length of the already light MCFK, but the price is also even crazier than the MCFK. 

I don't think I'll cut it down. Even so, I believe you can only reduce it by 10mm either end - you can't just chop it anywhere - so minimum is probably 720mm anyway.

I'll report back if there's anything worthy of more discussion, but at the end of the day, it's just a handlebar.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

phlegm said:


> Man, just me, or are the ESI grips really friggin' hard to put on?!


I have a method I've been using for years. Jam 2 or 3 plastic utensils around in between the bar and grip, when you get it halfway on, jam a few more from the other side. This gives a plastic surface to slide on, expands the grip, doesn't damage the carbon bar, and works for me. I don't have an air compressor, so otherwise that would likely be my method since that's what we used in a shop.


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## pamoreira (Jan 6, 2016)

Jayem said:


> I have a method I've been using for years. Jam 2 or 3 plastic utensils around in between the bar and grip, when you get it halfway on, jam a few more from the other side. This gives a plastic surface to slide on, expands the grip, doesn't damage the carbon bar, and works for me. I don't have an air compressor, so otherwise that would likely be my method since that's what we used in a shop.


After years of using ESI grips and trying various methods, find using rubbing alcohol the best approach to install and remove them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

phlegm said:


> Yep, followed the directions, using alcohol initially, and they wouldn't budge. Moved to a drop-of-soap-in-water-sprayer deal and that gave me just enough, but had to wrestle it the whole way.
> 
> The edges of the TLO bar are pretty sharp - not unfinished, but thin, so I think that didn't help any.
> 
> Didn't try air - will do next time.


I use hairspray to install ESI grips. It takes longer to dry than alcohol and it's stickier when it does.

Also, you should always install the end plugs first. It makes installing the grips easier.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

sfer1 said:


> I use hairspray to install ESI grips. It takes longer to dry than alcohol and it's stickier when it does.
> 
> Also, you should always install the end plugs first. It makes installing the grips easier.


Good point re the end plugs. I suspect the open ends grabbed at the grips, making it harder.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Wide Bars? Broken Saddle.*

*Wider Bars*
I'm still on the fence with the 740mm bars. Again, love the stability I feel on downhills, but there are so many tight fits on my local trail that it still feels dicey for me. I find that I'm thinking too much about those sections now. I'll keep trying, or maybe trim down to 720mm which is the lowest Schmolke says I can.

In any event, they are beautifully made, and I have no concerns usage-wise, despite the light weight.

*Broken Saddle
*I obviously ride XC, nothing crazy, but heard a crack in the saddle (thought it was my spine at first) on a minor weight-shift move. Kept riding, and later on heard a definite crack, and my saddle was off-kilter. One of the rails had broken:









I attempted a trail fix by clamping in a different spot, but that didn't work, and my fix actually drove the rail through the seat area itself:









In fairness to MCFK, I don't believe this saddle at the time was designed for XC, but instead IIRC, it was only for road use. Their latest saddle of this type is specifically listed as fine for both road and MTB. Secondly, I think I've had 4 or 5 seasons out of the saddle, so in that respect I'm OK with it. I'd ordinarily try warranty, but I bought it used.

So, as replacement, I'd love to get the same MCFK, but the price is just insane. Instead, I thought I'd try the Tune Speed Needle Marathon. The Marathon version is fairly close to the width I like on the MCFK, and my sample was nicely 5g less than the posted 109g:









Interesting that Tune uses Kevlar in addition to the carbon on the rails:









... and here's a compassion shot of the rails on the outgoing MCFK:









The tourque guidance is a max of 10Nm on the rails, which is impressive given that my MCFK seatpost won't allow more than 5Nm anyway. In any event, I'm hoping these rails prove to be more forgiving, and of course I still don't know how the Tune will feel. The MCFK was awesome in terms of the flex, but perhaps that was its undoing too.

I'll report back after a few rides on the saddle, and the bars.


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## scant (Jan 5, 2004)

I had a fizik gobi carbonfesaddle rail crack 3/4 way through. it broke at the junction of the seatpost saddle rail clamp points, which in hindsight was almost certainly the cause. a lot of stress concentrated at a few small points. the syntace p6 post is a lot heavier, but the full length seatrail support spreads the stress/weight on the seatrails over a considerably longer area, so i'd be surprised if I get another broken seatrail


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I once broke a bolt in the seatclamp head of an AX Lightness Deadalus post while riding which poked a small hole in the seating area of a Speedneedle (just like the damage to the seating area of your MCFK seat). That was about 10 years ago. I still ride that Speedneedle on a fairly regular basis with no issues.

And I too resisted the "wide bar" trend for a really long time. I recently switched to a 680 front riser bar (cheap Chinese eBay bar). I've now (somewhat easily) adapted to the extra width and really enjoy the improved control. Fellow riding buddies are still trying to get me using something even wider. Don't think I'll be doing that for the foreseeable future. Plus I'd need a longer rear brake line to make it work and with the internal routing of the brake line that I applied on my 2010 Yeti ASR5 Carbon, it'd be a ***** to change the line for a longer one.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

BlownCivic said:


> I once broke a bolt in the seatclamp head of an AX Lightness Deadalus post while riding which poked a small hole in the seating area of a Speedneedle (just like the damage to the seating area of your MCFK seat). That was about 10 years ago. I still ride that Speedneedle on a fairly regular basis with no issues.
> 
> And I too resisted the "wide bar" trend for a really long time. I recently switched to a 680 front riser bar (cheap Chinese eBay bar). I've now (somewhat easily) adapted to the extra width and really enjoy the improved control. Fellow riding buddies are still trying to get me using something even wider. Don't think I'll be doing that for the foreseeable future. Plus I'd need a longer rear brake line to make it work and with the internal routing of the brake line that I applied on my 2010 Yeti ASR5 Carbon, it'd be a ***** to change the line for a longer one.


So far the Speedneedle is fine, but I've only 1, 1-hour long ride on it, so can't say too much as yet. It is definitely firmer than the outgoing MCFK, but that's about the only comment so far.

I've swapped back to my narrower bars. Will test back-to-back on same trail a few times - can't get much more conclusive (for me) than that. (Unless I want something in between the MCFK and Schmolke!)


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Fastskiguy said:


> I use an air compressor and they slide on pretty easily. Sometimes spin though.


BTW, tried this today and removal of the grip was a breeze (no pun intended)! It even helped a bit with the install.

Thx for the tip!


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Updates, Updates, Updates*

OK, a few things to tackle, some of them long-term that I omitted...

*Schmolke TLO Bar*
Amazingly stiff. Suspect it is the top weight-to-width bar available worldwide, but too wide for what I'm doing. Our local, semi-private trails are rough, borderline XC, with tons of trees. Some so close together that you feel like you'll hit every time with 740mm bars. (Upon closer inspection, some have 50mm either side, some closer, but it is so close at speed to cause a flinch.)

I will be selling these. PM me if interested.

*Brake Boost*
I'm big, relative to the typical XC rider size. I upgraded my front rotor to a 180mm Magura Storm, and it needed an adapter. I failed to take scale shots of any of this, but I'll extrapolate the weights from a new full bike re-weight and manufacturer component weight soon. Adding weight for proven performance is a good thing.

*Tune Saddle*
It's not as flexy as the outgoing (broken) MCFK, but it seems bullet proof in about 12 rides thus far. Comfortable, thankfully, as it's always a gamble with saddle fit. I think this is a winner, although there's a minor (30-40g) weight penalty.

*Long-Term Di2 Update*
Love it. Hasn't failed at all, and I only need to charge it twice a season, maybe 3. Shifts are perfect, every time. I would love a fully stealth implementation (with the box buried in the frame), but the external seat tube implementation allows for easy charging, and easy checking of charge status. (Tip: press the up and down shift buttons at the same time, and the status light will appear.)

See this post to see what I'm talking about.

Will post a full-bike scale shot soon, along with the rotor & adapter consequences.


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## Raikzz (Jul 19, 2014)

You can always cut the bar shorter, no need to sell it?


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## sfer1 (Feb 22, 2009)

If you're looking to buy a new handlebar, I suggest you to check out Darimo.

Darimo MTB Handlebar - Darimo Carbon


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Raikzz said:


> You can always cut the bar shorter, no need to sell it?


This particular bar can only be cut by 10mm per end, so only down to 720mm overall. Still just a bit too much for me unfortunately.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

sfer1 said:


> If you're looking to buy a new handlebar, I suggest you to check out Darimo.
> 
> Darimo MTB Handlebar - Darimo Carbon


I think I'll stick with the original MCFK for now, at a crazy narrow 640mm.


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## egebhardt (Nov 16, 2004)

Excellent build. I'm doing the same right now except using a 2018 Epic HT Expert 11m(S-works uses 12m carbon) frame. The yellow/red metallic. For $700 (large frame new), it was the right price.

Furthermore, I'm using XTR Di2 and my front shifter is an *SW-R600 at 20g*. Thats a 44g savings over the SW-M9050 at 64g. I like the R600 shifting better too. Less crap hanging on the bars.

Also, my *Roval Control SL 148 wheels are now 1420g* (Fox front endcaps and Stans yellow tape (10g per wheel) and no valve stems). That's as low as I can go. My Stans Valor Pro Neo Ultimate w/ CenterLock hubs are 1310g. Note: CenterLock hubs don't allow 31mm RS torque end caps so I am using a *Fox SC32 Boost Shiny Orange fork at 1290g* cut to 7.2". I love that fork.

My S-Works Carbon Cranks 448g (arms only) (the generation after yours) broke on the non-drive side at the bolt-to-spindle area.

I probably should try the older ones like yours. *Have you avoided the newer cranks like mine for reliability or weight reasons?*


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks for the kind comments - been a while since I did a build, so I guess I'm overdue. That said, this is running well, despite a move to chunkier tires and brakes.

I had contemplated the SW-R600s, but felt it would feel a bit odd to have the buttons, but I really like the idea. (Let us know if you get any accidental changes in rough terrain.)

Good choice on the fork - it's a good one for sure.

Re the cranks, I just stuck with that version (essentially from Lightning) and moved them from bike to bike for several builds now.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

I've been using the R600 shifter for a couple years now and I love the simplicity of it. Never ever had an accidental shift.

phlegm, did you ever sell the TLO bar? If not, I might be interested.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Cool, thanks for confirming.

Yep, sold it a while back.


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

Wow, I'm overdue for a new build, and at least an update on this one! Will update shortly.


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