# White Industries ENO Chain Line



## dixie whiskey (Jul 25, 2010)

So I just bought a set of WI ENO cranks with a Phil Wood BB. Before ordering, we measured my old BB to find I was using a 113, my chain line was dialed in to the “T” perfection. So TimT was doing the install for me and I get a call from him yesterday, "Dude this isn't going to work, WI requires some weird 47.5 chain line so you may have to get a new BB." Great, I thought further recoil to my loyalty of WI (which is running thinner than ever recently – but that is another subject).

I did a good bit of research before getting these and never did I run across the specification requirement. Heck, I even spoke to Universal on the phone before I made the order and those guys are pretty bike savvy and they didn’t mention it either (I’ll be calling them back today for their opinion and/or exchange). So anyhow, anyone have any experience with this or care to comment. I’ve copied TimT’s email to me last night which explains more… 

Dude – I had no idea that White Industries would be so dumb as to build a mountain bike crank with a 47.5 chain line. Just about every bike I've ever set up had a 52-54 chain line. So got out the calipers and calculator and did some measurements. Rounded to keep it simple. You have a 54 chain line. The best I could get with the 113 Phil Wood BB is 51.5 which leaves 2.5 missing. The non-drive side cup is all the way flush with the BB shell the drive side is only half in. Not how I like it but ridable. I would recommend a longer BB. Putting the cups back to the correct position I would recommend a 126mm spindle. Phil Wood lists a 125. The 123 would work too. Remember the spindle is an over all length. Your 6.5 shy on one side. So (2x6.5) + 113 = 125. 

I went to the White website. Looked at their instructions on BB spindle length calculations. Not one time do they say how to measure the location of the rear cog. They are more worried about were the chain stays are. WTF? - Tim


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## farrisw1 (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't have any experience with WI but your post says "*I did a good bit of research before **getting these and never did I run across the specification requirement*".....where did you look because I just spent about 8 seconds on WI website and found, and I quote, "As a guideline, a 113mm BB will render a 47.5mm chain line." :skep:


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

47.5mm was, apparently, pretty much the standard until a few years ago. 

My bikes have plenty of tire clearance in the stays, so WI cranks would be unlikely to fit with a 113mm BB. I'd need wider for the cranks to clear the chain stay.


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## dixie whiskey (Jul 25, 2010)

farrisw1 said:


> I don't have any experience with WI but your post says "*I did a good bit of research before **getting these and never did I run across the specification requirement*".....where did you look because I just spent about 8 seconds on WI website and found, and I quote, "As a guideline, a 113mm BB will render a 47.5mm chain line." :skep:


Exactly right! (And thanks for the no experience and unkeen observation response) 113mm BB will in fact not render a 47.5 chain line, thus the details in my post.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

dixie whiskey said:


> So I just bought a set of...WTF? - Tim


Where are you getting the 52-54mm from? Because mountain cranks are generally either 47.5mm, or 50mm (external BB).

This might help you:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chainline.html


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## jpbova (Apr 7, 2009)

get a middleburn. 113 renders a 50mm chainline.

that's crazy that you are that far off. What frame is it?


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## dixie whiskey (Jul 25, 2010)

jpbova said:


> What frame is it?


Bianchi Muss


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## Nater (Jan 6, 2004)

When you're building a SS, it's the rear hub that dictates chain line. Most screw-on freewheel hubs (Surly, Phil Wood) have a 52-53mm chainline. White Industries rear hubs have a 47.5mm chainline. 

The cranks do not require a 47.5mm chainline, it's just what their rear hub is speced at so that's what they publish in their instructions.


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## jpbova (Apr 7, 2009)

Nater said:


> When you're building a SS, it's the rear hub that dictates chain line. Most screw-on freewheel hubs (Surly, Phil Wood) have a 52-53mm chainline. White Industries rear hubs have a 47.5mm chainline.
> 
> The cranks do not require a 47.5mm chainline, it's just what their rear hub is speced at so that's what they publish in their instructions.


I was thinking about this before you posted. feasibly, couldn't you just get a freehub and space it out to whatever chainline you want? I know it's not the super clean look but it could solve the problem


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## Nater (Jan 6, 2004)

jpbova said:


> I was thinking about this before you posted. feasibly, couldn't you just get a freehub and space it out to whatever chainline you want? I know it's not the super clean look but it could solve the problem


Isn't a new BB much cheaper and easier than a new rear hub and re-lacing a wheel though?

OP: what rear hub do you have?


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## jpbova (Apr 7, 2009)

Nater said:


> Isn't a new BB much cheaper and easier than a new rear hub and re-lacing a wheel though?
> 
> OP: what rear hub do you have?


I was thinking in terms of getting a new freewheel or freehub not getting a new hub, but of course that is all dependent on what hub Dixie has. :thumbsup: :madman:


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## amishscum (Nov 12, 2006)

jpbova said:


> I was thinking in terms of getting a new freewheel or freehub not getting a new hub, but of course that is all dependent on what hub Dixie has. :thumbsup: :madman:


Getting a new freewheel doesn't solve the chainline problem. And if he's using a freewheel (otherwise chainline wouldn't be a problem), there's no freehub shell to replace. He would have to replace the hub or get a different rear wheel. I think that's what Nater was thinking.


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## dixie whiskey (Jul 25, 2010)

Nater said:


> OP: what rear hub do you have?


Paul Word Disc. Actually we just built a new wheel for 650b. I'm pretty sure Universal will honor the exchange for the 113 to 123 or 125 (although they list neither in stock on their site). I'm going to call them shortly to discuss.


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## jpbova (Apr 7, 2009)

amishscum said:


> Getting a new freewheel doesn't solve the chainline problem. And if he's using a freewheel (otherwise chainline wouldn't be a problem), there's no freehub shell to replace. He would have to replace the hub or get a different rear wheel. I think that's what Nater was thinking.


right right. I didn't think about that. :madman:


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## Nater (Jan 6, 2004)

amishscum said:


> Getting a new freewheel doesn't solve the chainline problem. And if he's using a freewheel (otherwise chainline wouldn't be a problem), there's no freehub shell to replace. He would have to replace the hub or get a different rear wheel. I think that's what Nater was thinking.


Yeah, I was assuming that he already had a wheel built with a freewheel hub. I think the best thing to do in this case is to get a new BB...hopefully you can exchange your Phil for the correct size.


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## arphaxhad (Apr 17, 2008)

dixie whiskey said:


> Paul Word Disc. Actually we just built a new wheel for 650b. I'm pretty sure Universal will honor the exchange for the 113 to 123 or 125 (although they list neither in stock on their site). I'm going to call them shortly to discuss.


Paul Word Disc hubs use a 51.5 mm chainline

http://www.paulcomp.com/diskword.html


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## dixie whiskey (Jul 25, 2010)

arphaxhad said:


> Paul Word Disc hubs use a 51.5 mm chainline


Yup. So conveniently WI designed the chain line to 47.5 on their hubs in which the cranks align (I suppose you can't blame them for that). So to get the Paul hub to align, I'll need to get the PW 125mm BB.

Just called Universal, they'll take the exchange but no dice on a swap (biggest they carry is 113). I found one shop online that carries the 125, and has (1) in stock and as the rep said "no worries, it will be sitting there whenever you need it&#8230;" in other words, fat chance someone else needing something rare in that size. Only my luck&#8230;

I'm really thinking I should have gone the Paul Mountain Cranks route and saved myself this trouble.


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## Nater (Jan 6, 2004)

dixie whiskey said:


> I'm really thinking I should have gone the Paul Mountain Cranks route and saved myself this trouble.


The only problem with the Paul's cranks is they use an ISO taper...same as Campy. It really limits your BB choices. Not a problem for you really since you're already in for getting a Phil Wood BB...they're the only one except for Campy, and Campy BB's are limited to a 68mm shell.


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## dixie whiskey (Jul 25, 2010)

Well, as my luck would have it the cups left marks on the BB and certainly Univ. will not take it back since it has evidence of being installed. So rather than take the chance to send it back and they not accept it (I already fibbed a little on my explanation that we had not actually installed when in fact we had). So on to Plan B, purchase the 125mm spindle directly from PW and change it out that way. 

So if anyone is looking for a 113mm SS Wood spindle, I’ll cut you a good deal! :thumbsup: Otherwise it’s going to be a paperweight in my office…


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## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

Doesn't Phil Wood make offset spindles?


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

I'm the guy putting this pig together.
Chain line is a mix of a bunch of items working together. On the front its the frame,BB, cranks and chain ring. On the back its the frame,hub and freewheel or hub and spacers/cog. throw in design /manufacturing tolerances and a mix of different manufacturers parts, it can turn in turn into an ugly mess. So when a company says their product has a such and such chain line I take it with a grain of salt. Then I whip out the calipers and calculator.

In White's instructions on the web site all they seem interested in is making sure the chain wheel doesn't hit the frame. They only offer 2 BB's and I'm not sure how using a different length BB will keep the same chain line. Unless I'm missing something and even if you use a ENO hub,crank,chain wheel,freewheel and BB your chain line will magically stay the same if you go from a 113 to a 120spindle. .....3.5mm/.137" ?? (per side) 

So why is chain line so important? Ever wonder why one side of your chain ring is wearing out and the other side looks brand new or have your chains stretched with low miles on them, drop a chain? Probably out of alignment.Think of cross gearing. Bikes with good chain lines just work/run better and you get better wear on parts. 

IMHO White should examine their instructions on figuring out chain line. If they need help they can drop me a line. 

Stu I may have to post a how to on the NOMAMBO site when I get back from Vegas.

later
Tim


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

TimT said:


> In White's instructions on the web site all they seem interested in is making sure the chain wheel doesn't hit the frame.


The way I read it, they are interested in the cranks not hitting the frame.

On a local forum, one guy is now building up a Lynskey and, after first torquing, his White cranks are about 4 mm from the chainstays with a 113 mm Phil BB


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

Cranks or chain wheel still doesn't help with actual chain line set up. The closest on Stu's MUSS was about 5mm on the non drive side. I'd ride that. 

Tim


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## nonfortuna (Aug 16, 2009)

WI reccomends using their 121mm BB with Paul Hubs. As a shop mechanic, I just called them when I had an issue several years ago with this. I hate to say it, but this is information you probably could have gotten fairly easily from your LBS.


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## dixie whiskey (Jul 25, 2010)

nonfortuna said:


> I hate to say it, but this is information you probably could have gotten fairly easily from your LBS.


Maybe your LBS, not ours. Tim's garage has more tools and know-how than any bike shop in the south. The reason he is working on the chainline is because it was off to begin with coming from the LBS.

PS - I ordered the 125mm axle yesterday from PW for the swap since I couldn't refund the 113 from the cup marks from the install.


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

The WI sq taper cranks dont have anything to do with chainline. That's your bottom bracket spindle, your freewheel, your rear hub. PHIL hub x WI freewheel has a 51 chainline. I had to buy a new BB due to chainline problems (using a sq taper Middleburn UNO) when I changed frames - a 113mm with a driveside offset. The Phil cups helped add a few mm, but not as much as I needed to comfortably have enough cup within the frames bb shell threads. Anyways, chainline is hard to measure prior for even the savviest wrenches. Sometimes, you have to play it by ear and by eye sight installed. A pain, but once dialed, it's DIALED and a joy to experience.


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## jpbova (Apr 7, 2009)

illnacord said:


> The WI sq taper cranks dont have anything to do with chainline. That's your bottom bracket spindle, your freewheel, your rear hub. PHIL hub x WI freewheel has a 51 chainline. I had to buy a new BB due to chainline problems (using a sq taper Middleburn UNO) when I changed frames - a 113mm with a driveside offset. The Phil cups helped add a few mm, but not as much as I needed to comfortably have enough cup within the frames bb shell threads. Anyways, chainline is hard to measure prior for even the savviest wrenches. Sometimes, you have to play it by ear and by eye sight installed. A pain, but once dialed, it's DIALED and a joy to experience.


how big was your original BB?


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

illnacord said:


> The WI sq taper cranks dont have anything to do with chainline. .


How you figure that. The cranks (any crank) locates the chain ring/chain wheel.










The crank on the right is a White ENO the one on the left is a Race Face . There is about 10mm of difference on chain ring location.
Tim


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## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

And, with square taper, the BB locates the crank. Right?


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## TimT (Jan 1, 2004)

perttime said:


> And, with square taper, the BB locates the crank. Right?


Yes.....didn't I mention in an above post that its a bunch of parts working together that makes a chainline????? I'm going to Vegas see you guys in a week.

Tim


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## metrotuned (Dec 29, 2006)

TimT: Thanks for the reminder with the photo. You can calculate what BB you need by measuring that difference!


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