# mountain biker froze to death, sad story



## inter (Nov 27, 2010)

I don't know if this has been posted before.
Too much passion and poor decisions could kill you.
Very sad story that just happened last weekend.

CORONA: Widow angry at delay in search for mountain biker | Corona, Norco, Eastvale News | PE.com

We all can learn from this. Never underestimate the mountain, be prepared.
Be safe out there.


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## soulshaker (Sep 23, 2013)

Sad story, but in perspective, that was not a good day to go out in the local mountains. I didn't go back out until yesterday and conditions were still marginal.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

Read it a couple days ago, very sad. Don't know if his battery died or just lost reception, but my phone fully charged is something I will keep an eye on.


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## Tomahawk3Niner (Feb 13, 2014)

A sad story for sure... but I have to say I see a whole lot of finger pointing at people who weren't to blame. A little more thought put into the gear he was taking with him probably would have saved him... let's not mention postponing the trip.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

Yeah...as a rescuer myself it sucks when conditions prevent you from going out and searching for a lost person. However, if conditions are that poor, you have to consider the safety of many over trying find/save just one. 

And I'm sure that the mountain biker figured like many of us do...I've been there, done that...no reason to think I can't do it again. Well, stuff happens and you gotta be prepared. An 80 mile loop on a mountain bike in what I presume is fairly rugged area is nothing to take lightly...and in marginal weather to boot.


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## iWiLRiDe (Apr 17, 2006)

This is a very tragic story indeed.

I get that the rider was ill prepared. Definitely shouldn't be out there if your safety could be compromised. That said, it didn't seem like finding him was too hard. I mean if a small group of volunteers was able to find him in 6 hours, having more support could have saved his life.

Again, clearly you should be prepared but if it wasn't that hard to find him, would it have been so bad to utilize more resources? We have people that do snow rescue where it's much colder and visibility is much less, I think people can go out with flashlights in rainy conditions, ya?


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Yeah, this is pretty sad. I'm not going to bash the widow for her thoughts on the rescue - I don't blame her for feeling the way she does. I ride solo a lot and that takes just a little bit more preparation and planning than group riding. You and you alone are responsible for your actions and safety. You can't rely on others to get you out of a jam. Part of this philosophy is making good decisions, chief among them is knowing the weather and acting accordingly. If there's going to be bad weather on the day of the ride then you either cancel, change the time of the ride to miss the weather or go somewhere else where weather won't be an issue.

I found it strange that he died on the bike. I get it, he was probably getting hypothermic and losing judgement but damn, get off the bike and hunker down, man.

Unless there's some sort of review that says otherwise I'll support the search and rescue team's decision and take them at their word. There must have been good reason for not conducting the search. They're trained and dedicated professionals and you have to really try to see the situation from their point of view.


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## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

Sorry, have to agree sad, but not the sheriffs/rescuers fault. Seriously, who would plan to go out for 9 hours without even food, let alone a rain jacket and other "maybe" things? ut:


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## KRob (Jan 13, 2004)

Given his confused and disoriented state when he called his wife I wonder if he'd crashed and was suffering concussion symptoms. Hypothermia can cause similar symptoms though, so who's to say? That's the thing that a lot of people don't get about hypothermia is that it doesn't have to be that cold to die from it. 40-45 degrees F and wet for several hours is plenty cold to kill.

Sad story. As one who also rides solo in remote locations (and has crashed and been disoriented from a concussion) it really made me take a little re-assessment of my preparedness level.


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## SlowMTBer (Jan 1, 2012)

First off, let me say that I am extremely saddened by the story, and the loss of another biking enthusiast. I know that the saying "He died doing what he loved" might be said here, but it simply isn't true. He died by freezing to death, and that probably wasn't what he loved doing.

All the talk leaning towards blaming the rescue crews is a little disturbing to me. In the end, we are all responsible for our own safety, and when that fails, it is the duty of family, friends, and community to take over. If there is an official government agency that can help, that is great, but it isn't the job of the government to bail us out, or hold our hand, etc. Each man has to be responsible for himself.

Thoughts and prayers to the family, and those affected.


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## Luis M. (Jun 9, 2013)

Sad indeed. This has certainly got me rethinking some of my own future rides and how prepared I am in case of mishap. Usually a minimalist but not anymore! Did a ride yesterday and the boulders that had fallen onto the trail were plain scary!


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## Hooch (Jun 30, 2006)

his being purple and still on the bike suggests something swift rather than hypothermia as that would have forced him off his bike.
living in the blue mountains here in aus and my housemate is a member of the rural fire service. The number of people each year that get caught out is pretty amazing. to try and mitigate it the blue mountains council rent out epirbs if you are going out so if something should happen. Response time is a hell of a lot faster than waiting beyond a certain time.


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## derekbob (May 4, 2005)

Luis M. said:


> Sad indeed. This has certainly got me rethinking some of my own future rides and how prepared I am in case of mishap. Usually a minimalist but not anymore! Did a ride yesterday and the boulders that had fallen onto the trail were plain scary!


This is how I feel. I'm not exactly a minimalist, in fact I think I pack more than I need. In the future when I'm debating whether or not to bring that extra layer I'll opt to bring it regardless.

Condolences to the deceased. It's interesting how he was found on the bike. Without knowing the terrain and conditions I wouldn't point any fingers at S&R. They want to head out there and find you safe as much as we want to ride.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

Sad story but Id rather die clipped in than waste away in a hospital bed. His family can take solace knowing he passed doing what he loves.


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## mcrn12 (Feb 1, 2013)

jeffw-13 said:


> Sad story but Id rather die clipped in than waste away in a hospital bed. His family can take solace knowing he passed doing what he loves.


I was just going to say basically the same thing! It is sad but I can think of a lot worse ways to pass.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

I read this yesterday and have been pondering it and considering my near misses that could have turned catastrophic.

Anyone can read and plan, but without more experience it really is hard to know what "being prepared" really means. And "experience" isn't just years of enjoying an activity or living in an area. Sometimes it takes a few near misses or mishaps to make even the most avid enthusiast realize how far bad a normal scenario can turn. Even with that realization, though, the individual weighs their options to "bring everything" or travel light. Maybe this guy pushed his luck too far. Maybe he's never had a mishap in all his years outdoors. Maybe when he left the house he really thought he was up for the challenge. It certainly is a sad story, but it will likely encourage others to evaluate their own situations more critically.

-F


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## mr_spin (Jan 12, 2004)

The guy was incredibly foolish and woefully underprepared for his trip. It's completely absurd to blame the search and rescue team for his death.

But I'm going to take a contrarian viewpoint about the so-called search and rescue team. I think it is a really valid point that if six volunteers can go out into the darkness and find him without any trouble, then why couldn't the official search and rescue team? I have to question their commitment. What is the point of having a search and rescue team that won't even search much less rescue? If you won't do the job when it needs doing, then clearly this isn't a job for you. Obviously, there are at least six volunteers who are willing to do the job, because they are the ones who did it. So maybe they should be the new search and rescue team for Riverside County?


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Tragic tale. A 10 oz rain coat and a lighter might have saved his life. I always plan for what if. An extra food bar and an extra layer is always with me. I have used my compass, lighter, knife and duct tape on different rides.


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## Tomahawk3Niner (Feb 13, 2014)

mr_spin said:


> The guy was incredibly foolish and woefully underprepared for his trip. It's completely absurd to blame the search and rescue team for his death.
> 
> But I'm going to take a contrarian viewpoint about the so-called search and rescue team. I think it is a really valid point that if six volunteers can go out into the darkness and find him without any trouble, then why couldn't the official search and rescue team? I have to question their commitment. What is the point of having a search and rescue team that won't even search much less rescue? If you won't do the job when it needs doing, then clearly this isn't a job for you. Obviously, there are at least six volunteers who are willing to do the job, because they are the ones who did it. So maybe they should be the new search and rescue team for Riverside County?


Until you're the one making the calls for the SAR team, I wouldn't question it too much. The guy who made the call has to weigh the risk of endangering his team to the possibilities of finding who they are looking for.

As much as some people don't like it, they have no legal obligation to help someone and do it out of their own kindness.

If I was making the calls and it looked like there was a good chance my team would get hurt, I would make the same call.

Kudos to the volunteers for doing something. We don't know enough to determine however if the "ease" of finding the missing biker had anything to do with something other than luck. Since no one was with him we can't know if he would have been found in time had a team found him sooner.

It is a tragedy and I feel for his family, but the fault lays squarely on his own decisions and unpreparedness.


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## thekarpatkid (Mar 29, 2012)

it's a tragic death.

there is no place to hide from the wet (rain or splatter) on a bike. being wet increases the effect of wind chill exponentially. so once your so cold you are shivering, you cannot get the legs pumping enough blood to raise your core temperature without the cold wet wind bleeding it all away. no matter how warm it is, if i'm going out for the day, a wind/rain layer (thin and nearly weightless will do!) is ALWAYS a layer I carry. and if you are riding in an area where the local search and rescue is afraid of bad weather conditions, i'd carry even more.


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## mr_spin (Jan 12, 2004)

Tomahawk3Niner said:


> Until you're the one making the calls for the SAR team, I wouldn't question it too much. The guy who made the call has to weigh the risk of endangering his team to the possibilities of finding who they are looking for.
> 
> As much as some people don't like it, they have no legal obligation to help someone and do it out of their own kindness.
> 
> ...


Again, the fault is his. No question. No disagreement whatsoever. But I still question the point of having a SAR team that won't SAR. Yes, there is risk, but everyone volunteers for SAR. No one is forced to do it. You know the risk when you signed up for the job, and you know the day might come when you will be called on to take that risk. If you aren't willing to do it, then stop pretending, because I'd rather have no SAR team than have one that only goes out when there is no risk. Because, what's the difference?


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## Tomahawk3Niner (Feb 13, 2014)

mr_spin said:


> Again, the fault is his. No question. No disagreement whatsoever. But I still question the point of having a SAR team that won't SAR. Yes, there is risk, but everyone volunteers for SAR. No one is forced to do it. You know the risk when you signed up for the job, and you know the day might come when you will be called on to take that risk. If you aren't willing to do it, then stop pretending, because I'd rather have no SAR team than have one that only goes out when there is no risk. Because, what's the difference?


There is always a risk. It just depends on how bad. Sending a team in, if it looked almost certain that they would get lost in a blizzard for example, would be dumb.

I can't speak to what the conditions were on this mountain because I don't know, but if a trained SAR team calls off because it's too dangerous I'm not going to call them pointless for it.

I can't imagine the decision was made lightly. The kind of people who do SAR aren't the kind of people that will just let someone who needs help go with out it for no good reason.


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## Puzman (Apr 1, 2004)

Sad story, and my thoughts go out to his family. I always carry a bag of the "10 Essentials" in my Camelbak, and I always pack at least a windshirt as an extra layer (and a puffy if its cold out) in my pack. I've also gotten in the habit of sending a txt message to a friend if I'm riding solo, letting them know where I'm riding and when I expect to return. It doesn't take much to turn a fun ride into an epic, or worse...


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## bankerboy (Oct 17, 2006)

For those judging the rescuers;

*First rule of rescue* - As a rescuer, do not put yourself into a position that you will have to be rescued.

*Don't make things worse* -- Granted it is not the same situation, the rules apply the same

_The heart-breaking decision to suspend rescue operations knowing someone may be trapped in the rubble of a collapsed building - as happened in Elliot Lake, Ont. - is among the hardest for first responders to make, experts said Tuesday.

At the same time, they said, their top priority must be to ensure that rescuers don't add to the tragedy by themselves becoming casualties.

"It's the most difficult thing for a first responder to cease operations because it's not what we do, it's not what we want to do," said Jim Young, who heads up the urban search and rescue task force in Vancouver._

It is sad. I don't know why he went out seemingly so under prepared. Wishes to the surviving family.


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

mr_spin said:


> Again, the fault is his. No question. No disagreement whatsoever. But I still question the point of having a SAR team that won't SAR. Yes, there is risk, but everyone volunteers for SAR. No one is forced to do it. You know the risk when you signed up for the job, and you know the day might come when you will be called on to take that risk. If you aren't willing to do it, then stop pretending, because I'd rather have no SAR team than have one that only goes out when there is no risk. Because, what's the difference?


People can't count on Search and Rescue because they have to weigh a variety of factors when deciding on when to head out. If you head out to something in the outdoors in rough terrain don't expect them to come and rescue you. But Search and Rescue teams get people out of jams all the time, you know that. So having these resources is well worth it.

They are not pretending, I couldn't disagree more with that statement. They are dedicated individuals, many of whom are volunteers but they are not under any obligation to risk their lives - that has never been part of the job description. They do go out with some risk but at the same time they will mitigate that risk and if they determine conditions are too severe then they will make the call to stay grounded.


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## jerry68 (Aug 23, 2007)

"cellphone extreme athletes", the people who don't need training, skills, proper gear, or proper precaution because if they get in trouble they'll just call for help on their cellphone.


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## motomuppet (Sep 27, 2011)

Very sad news. I would be angry with the SAR team as well. Conditions clearly were not so bad no one could go out looking for the guy...his wife and some volenteers did it and they are not trained professionals. I don't think the SAR team are to blame in anyway...this guy made a mistake going out in bad conditions, unprepared and paid with his life. Totally his fault. But if the wife and her friends can do it...so can SAR.


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## Tomahawk3Niner (Feb 13, 2014)

motomuppet said:


> Very sad news. I would be angry with the SAR team as well. Conditions clearly were not so bad no one could go out looking for the guy...his wife and some volenteers did it and they are not trained professionals. I don't think the SAR team are to blame in anyway...this guy made a mistake going out in bad conditions, unprepared and paid with his life. Totally his fault. But if the wife and her friends can do it...so can SAR.


I reread the article and it sounds to me like the wife and other volunteers went out early the next morning. If that's the case they could have been in better weather. In cases like this... Once night came if he didn't have a fire his chances of survival are damn slim.

All this blaming the SAR team... Not sure why anyone would want to do it if they are going to be blamed for someone else's bad decisions and bad luck.

Wife would have more room to complain if they went out when SAR first called it off. But still...


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## motomuppet (Sep 27, 2011)

Tomahawk3Niner said:


> I reread the article and it sounds to me like the wife and other volunteers went out early the next morning. If that's the case they could have been in better weather. In cases like this... Once night came if he didn't have a fire his chances of survival are damn slim.
> 
> All this blaming the SAR team... Not sure why anyone would want to do it if they are going to be blamed for someone else's bad decisions and bad luck.
> 
> Wife would have more room to complain if they went out when SAR first called it off. But still...


I dunno...while I totally agree blaming the SAR team makes little sense, put yourself in the wifes shoes...your partner is out there and the professionals call of the search on sat night. You get organised with some kit and some mates and head out at 3:45am sunday morning...thats the middle of the night, and we dont know what time the search was called of on Sat night...could have been 11:59pm for all we know. So she sets off with mates and they find her husband dead. There were probably several hours wasted when the search was called off while she argued with the SAR team, and went to make preperations of her own when they would not help. If they had continued the search the outcome may have been different and he may have been found alive. A lot of if's but as his wife can you imagine how frustrating that would be. Like I said, I dont think it is the SAR's fault he died...that was all his fault and responsibility, but as his partner I would be pretty mad at the SAR.

It is a tough call to stop searching for someone, and I respect that. You have to look out for the search crew's safety as well. In this case, looking at it from the wifes perspective, it was the wrong call. Obviously, it could have gone the otherway as well. Had the SAR team gone looking for him and one or more of the search team were injured, well, it would have been deemed foolish to go out there in those conditions. Tough call, but like I said, if I were in her shoes, i would be pretty angry with the SAR team.


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## brentos (May 19, 2006)

Definitely a sad story.

It's so easy to get so far off the beaten path in such a short time on a mountain bike. Sometimes a simple part malfunction can lead to a really bad situation...especially in cold/wet weather.

Broken chain? What if your chain tool breaks while repairing, it's 1 hour till dark, and you're 10 miles from the trail head?

It's so tempting to travel light and fast, and it's easy to forget how far from help you actually are.

I've had some close calls, my light weight essentials list is as follows:
-2 tubes.
-Patch kit
-Super Glue
-Pump
-Shell layer
-Multi-tool
-Energy bar
-Small LED light
-Small strip of duct tape.

Some lessons I've learned:
-Never cross a sloped snow field in the spring, ever. I nearly ended it in a pile of scree, when I didn't, it was still a 1.5 hour hike back up.
-Never go on an epic loop when there is rain in the forecast.
-Never descend more than 50 feet down something you can't ride back up.
-Always let someone know where you're going, and when you plan to return. Confirm with them when you've returned.

And I still know that I'm woefully unprepared for a crash/injury. Or some types of mechanical issues.


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## iWiLRiDe (Apr 17, 2006)

I'm not sure where you get "all the talk leaning towards blaming the rescue crew" is coming from. My post was the only post that questioned it.

That said, I get that if conditions were "safe" to go out and look for him, then they would have done it. My logic is questioning the lack of going out is that it only took 6 hours for non professionals to find the body, I could only imagine if there were more resources he could have been saved.

I never said that search and rescue is to blame or that they are at fault. I'm saying that IF they were deployed, SINCE 6 inexperienced search and rescue members were able to find him in that short period of time, then maybe he would have had a chance to survive if more resources were allocated to the search and rescue.

Nobody is saying it is anybody's official job to "bail us out" but at the same time, I've seen search and rescue go out for less. For instance, a back country skier who goes out of bounds and hasn't been seen for a few hours, a loved one reports it and I know that patrols go out (in the dark and in the snow).

Clearly if I haven't said it enough, it's up to yourself to get out of trouble and to be prepared, but it seems to me that in this case, someone potentially could have been saved without exerting too many resources.


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## jerry68 (Aug 23, 2007)

Its easy to Monday morning Quarterback what the SAR Team "coulda, shoulda, woulda" done, but none of us were there that night to know the conditions, SAR Team members are VOLUNTEERS, and the first rule of being a Rescuer is to not become a casualty yourself. SAR Teams work with a plan, and if that plan cannot be safely implemented then the search is delayed until it can be implemented. The non-professional "rescuers" were just wandering around in pairs and probably just got lucky in stumbling across him. I wonder how it would have played out had one of the would be rescuers been injured or killed?


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## Tone's (Nov 12, 2011)

Sad story, but to be honest the guy sounds pretty dopey, theres basic things you need to take out on any ride, whether riding in snow, cold, heat or just a normal ride.
If he had been a bit smarter he would be alive today.
Id put this down to natural selection...


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Tomahawk3Niner said:


> We don't know enough to determine however if the "ease" of finding the missing biker had anything to do with something other than luck.


Yes, we do. The volunteers simply went up his planned loop in reverse and found him on the main road.

Tone's, I think your honesty is a little much. The contributing or causing factors are more than obvious in this case. Just because you can post something doesn't mean you should. Think for a minute about Andre's family members reading this. Thanks.


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## Paulie_G (Feb 23, 2013)

This story reminds me of what happened to Evan Tanner, UFC guy. Died alone in the heat. He was also new to riding. (dirt bike) You wouldn't paddle out on an overhead day as a newb surfer. People don't realize the dangers on land the same way.


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## shredjekyll (Jun 3, 2012)

brentos said:


> Definitely a sad story.
> 
> It's so easy to get so far off the beaten path in such a short time on a mountain bike. Sometimes a simple part malfunction can lead to a really bad situation...especially in cold/wet weather.
> 
> ...


Decent list but nowadays it is just plain stupid to go on a long bike ride without an external battery charger for your cellphone. A really solid one can be had for $25-40 and does not take up much space or add much weight.

There are hundreds of incredibly useful survival apps available for smartphones which more people need to be aware of. How to build a shelter, how to stay warm, how to tell where you are, etc, etc can all be found on a decent survival app.

Hell, the lightest external battery charger available could weigh 10 pounds and I'd still be packing it every time I go on a long ride


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

We could go on all day about what could have been different, but the focus for all of us should be what we can do to stay as safe as possible. Calling the guy "dopey" and a result of "natural selection" is a ridiculous response (not to mention a complete misunderstanding of natural selection).


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## Tone's (Nov 12, 2011)

She&I said:


> Yes, we do. The volunteers simply went up his planned loop in reverse and found him on the main road.
> 
> Tone's, I think your honesty is a little much. The contributing or causing factors are more than obvious in this case. Just because you can post something doesn't mean you should. Think for a minute about Andre's family members reading this. Thanks.


I doubt they will be reading this, i did actually think of that as i wrote it, but i understand what your saying, cheers


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## Tone's (Nov 12, 2011)

s0ckeyeus said:


> We could go on all day about what could have been different, but the focus for all of us should be what we can do to stay as safe as possible. Calling the guy "dopey" and a result of "natural selection" is a ridiculous response (not to mention a complete misunderstanding of natural selection).


Its a perfect example of Charles Darwins natural selection theory, people just arnt used to hearing it in relation to grown humans, its harsh but true.
If you got a group of 1000 people to head out on bikes into a possibly life threatening environment only the smartest with the best preparation and the strongest would survive, thus making a stronger,smarter gene pool, its easy to sit around and say poor fellow how sad, but there was many ways he could have avoided this, yes its sad, i feel for his family but its a clear cut case of a lack of thinking on many levels that has led to his death.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Tone's said:


> Its a perfect example of Charles Darwins natural selection theory, people just arnt used to hearing it in relation to grown humans, its harsh but true.
> If you got a group of 1000 people to head out on bikes into a possibly life threatening environment only the smartest with the best preparation and the strongest would survive, thus making a stronger,smarter gene pool, its easy to sit around and say poor fellow how sad, but there was many ways he could have avoided this, yes its sad, i feel for his family but its a clear cut case of a lack of thinking on many levels that has led to his death.


Um. No. The guy just made poor decisions. Genetically, he was probably no more disposed to dying in the wilderness than any of the rest of us. But whatever...


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## mtnrsq (Jun 21, 2013)

This is a terribly sad story and there are a LOT of lessons to be learned on many fronts. There will be a significant discussion by the SAR teams and Riverside Sheriff's personnel about the decision making, risk assessment, and other factors in this search.

Hindsight is always 20-20 and people _should_ be asking what happened and how to avoid it in the future. This certainly applies to SAR personnel and us as individual mountain bikers (or skiers, hikers, climbers, kayakers, etc.).

Ask yourself, "What would I do if I were forced to spend an unplanned night out?" or "What would I do if my friend were injured?" Apps on phones are great but you shouldn't be relying on them. Phones break, coverage is non-existent, etc.

Avoid potential problems and take steps to mitigate the risk. Don't hesitate to turn around or stay home. The trail will still be there later when the weather is better. If you go - take the proper equipment and make sure someone knows where you are going and when you'll be back. Have basic navigation skills and info on the area so you can make good decisions on bail out options. Know how to recognize and treat medical emergencies. Take a first aid class. Hypothermia is an insidious killer. It will quickly impact your ability to make good decisions or even recognize that you are in a life-threatening situation. Carry the appropriate tools AND _know how_to do basic field repairs.

There are lots of good sources for info (here's one: http://www.mra.org/images/stories/training/backcountrysafety.pdf). Take advantage of the advice a lot of people are sharing. Try some things out BEFORE you need them. See what works for you.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Sadly, he was unprepared for things going wrong. As an an old cold weather hiker, backpacker (in my younger days) and rider, I always carry enough stuff to survive an unexpected sleepover or turn in the weather. I feel bad for his family. Let us all take heed and be ready when nature turns unkind.


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

The only word I can think of for this situation, regardless or how you look at it, is tragedy. A member of our tribe has fallen. If I could take on the burden of this family's loss, anguish and crushing grief for one second, one minute, one hour, one day, I would. 
Perhaps the lessons learned from his situation may save your life or the life of a loved one some day. 
I would never thought about having a cell phone charger or a light-weight bivy in my pack. Now I know.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

jerry68 said:


> Its easy to Monday morning Quarterback what the SAR Team "coulda, shoulda, woulda" done, but none of us were there that night to know the conditions, SAR Team members are VOLUNTEERS, and the first rule of being a Rescuer is to not become a casualty yourself. SAR Teams work with a plan, and if that plan cannot be safely implemented then the search is delayed until it can be implemented. The non-professional "rescuers" were just wandering around in pairs and probably just got lucky in stumbling across him. I wonder how it would have played out had one of the would be rescuers been injured or killed?


^^^This.

It's quite giggle-worthy when I read the statements of people questioning the SAR team's decision not to head out in the conditions (which killed/contributed to the death of the cyclist), as they existed. If I'd been tasked to perform (C)SAR in those conditions, I wouldn't have headed out until the next morning.

It's unfortunate, yes. But if you can't operate without a cell phone to get your ass home, you shouldn't be out in the back country. A map, compass, flashlight and an emergency bivy bag would have saved this dude.

He was unprepared, and he paid for it.


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

I don't get people defending the wife. Yeah, they found the guy. This time. That doesn't change the fact that they made poor decisions and tasked inexperienced people to do the job a professional had declared too dangerous at the time. Just because the house doesn't fall on you when the fireman says to not go back inside, doesn't mean the fireman is unprofessional or unprepared. It means you are a fool and got lucky, nothing more.

One of the actiivities of any decent SAR team is to review ALL rescues, no matter how successful, to determine what they can further do to improve safety, team coordination, time management, etc. Unfortunately for the Sherriff's department, I think they'll be spending most of their time defending their actions from the understandably upset but decidedly ignorant wife. Sorry, but being willing to risk the lives of several members of your family and friends to find one person does not make you brave, smart, or a hero.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

i've read this thread with great interest since i often do moderately long solo night rides in areas not far from san francisco that aren't used much after dark. you all make good points, especially when it comes to telling someone where you're going and plan to come back. but when it comes to this sad story, two things jump out at me right away:

"Marin was wearing only a thin shirt that he had recently purchased and cycling shorts. He ignored his wife’s advice to bring food."

and then this:

"Sheriff's Lt. Zach Hall said ideally, the department would have sent a helicopter to follow the approximately 53-mile route that Marin, 34, had planned to follow along Skyline Trail, Main Divide Road and Indian Truck Trail."

you planned on riding a FIFTY THREE MILE LOOP in questionable weather conditions wearing only a jersey and shorts with no food?

how many of you can ride fifty miles without eating anything?

i know i can't.

the SARS team has much more experience at their jobs than i or almost any of us ever will. i think they made the right decision.

i won't say more.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

I'm kinda thinking an emergency thermal blanket would be a good thing for my pack depending on my ride. Very light to carry, reflective , and probably usefull for temps under 70 for shock treatment of a riding buddy.


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## Kliemann53 (Aug 11, 2009)

SAR teams are not professionals. They are organized by the sheriff but they are civilian volunteers many of them teenagers. 
the sheriff is never going the send them out in poor weather at night.


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## mantrain (May 23, 2013)

mr_spin said:


> Again, the fault is his. No question. No disagreement whatsoever. But I still question the point of having a SAR team that won't SAR. Yes, there is risk, but everyone volunteers for SAR. No one is forced to do it. You knoerw the risk when you signed up for the job, and you know the day might come when you will be called on to take that risk. If you aren't willing to do it, then stop pretending, because I'd rather have no SAR team than have one that only goes out when there is no risk. Because, what's the difference?


I agree 100 percent. They weren't entering a war zone, nor the himalayis. They would have the opportunity to save lives, and be able to take all the resources needed. Then again I do not know squat.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Kliemann53 said:


> SAR teams are not professionals. They are organized by the sheriff but they are civilian volunteers many of them teenagers.
> the sheriff is never going the send them out in poor weather at night.


you're right...some of them are scout troops.

Search and Rescue Merit Badge and Worksheet


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Tone's said:


> Its a perfect example of Charles Darwins natural selection theory, people just arnt used to hearing it in relation to grown humans, its harsh but true.


Besides the fact that this is simply tasteless to say in this situation, it is also bad example, as he already has 4 kids.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

It sounds to me like the time to start planning for his rescue was when he first left the house. 

The story is sad, I don't wish that on any family. I do hope it serves as a reminder that you need to take preparation seriously. It is easy to dismiss this one as shear stupidity, because this guy did pretty much EVERYTHING wrong, but I see people cut corners all the time in preparation that could cost them there lives. 

It is an odds game. Chances are very high that all the crap I carry around with me, while saving me from some hurt and suffering on very rare occasion, will NEVER actually save my life. But it is a risk that I see no point in exposing myself or my family to.


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## Njhardrock (Feb 17, 2013)

This thread should be locked... A guy died and all people have to say is what ( they ) would do or how he didn't prepare enough....common guys none of us were there be adults and if you don't have anything positive to say then shut the f up..... Stuff happens you don't know what happened so don't assume the worst.... 

My regards to to his family real shame 4 kids lost a dad....


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## Tomahawk3Niner (Feb 13, 2014)

shekky said:


> i've read this thread with great interest since i often do moderately long solo night rides in areas not far from san francisco that aren't used much after dark. you all make good points, especially when it comes to telling someone where you're going and plan to come back. but when it comes to this sad story, two things jump out at me right away:
> 
> "Marin was wearing only a thin shirt that he had recently purchased and cycling shorts. He ignored his wife's advice to bring food."
> 
> ...


QFE

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

Tone's said:


> I doubt they will be reading this, i did actually think of that as i wrote it, but i understand what your saying, cheers


Thanks for that.

I think you might be surprised where family members end up online, digging for remembrances about a loved one. I've seen it commonly on climbing web sites where a relative joins the conversation about a fallen athlete. Words written on the net are immortal. Four kids will certainly, in time, want to know more about the dad they lost.

*****

I wrote this on another web site:

I'm still baffled that, apparently, so few solo riders have taken advantage of the dedicated NOAA sat frequency for PLBs. You spend < 300 on a beacon, register online and you're set (in two years you'll be asked to confirm/update your reg info). The registration info includes two contact personnel. In emergency, you activate it and it sends your location to whatever emergency services cover that area. The agency can then get in touch with the registered contacts...Three bills is a no-brainer expenditure for what a beacon can do. If you can afford a decent MTB, you can afford a beacon.

PLBs and Satellite Messengers: How to Choose

I pack my PLB every solo ride, along with a few emergency items in case of forced bivy. A Bic lighter has turned numerous grim nights on climbing missions into mere annoyances. A spare dry layer and small light are always on board as well.

Mike


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## Madman43 (Nov 24, 2013)

Its a bummer that the dude died, however you have to place blame on him. people on this forum will learn from this mistake and hope this will save a life.

I do not see anyone bashing this guy, sometimes the truth hurts that it was not a smart thing to do.


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## kabayan (Oct 25, 2004)

This tragic story had me googling SAR.
I found this on the first page.
SMSR - Welcome to the Sierra Madre Search and Rescue Website
"Available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year - anywhere, any time, any weather"

I found the one related to this sad story with their entry posted on the website:
Mission 2014-006

More googling:
According to these, the route was 18 miles.
CLEVELAND NATIONAL FOREST: Mountain biker found dead (UPDATED)
Mountain Biker Who Got Lost in Cleveland National Forest Found Dead - Police & Fire - Lake Elsinore-Wildomar, CA Patch


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

The volunteers who found him didn't rescue him any better than the SAR team did.


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## Trail Ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

Anybody who thinks the SAR team didn't do their "job" properly should read this:
"All of the Team members are unpaid volunteers who make themselves available regardless of the time of the day, job and personal commitments, or the weather. In a typical year the average Team member will contribute almost 1000 hours to the Team. New members typically spend over $3,000 of their own money on personal equipment when they first join the Team, and personal expenses continue as equipment is used and must be replaced."

They stopped doing their "jobs" to go out and try to rescue this fellow. When was the last time you did that?


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

why should this thread be locked?

why should we as the mountain biking community not express our condolences while reaffirming the need to be prepared for anything on every ride, no matter how short...or long.

sometimes a positive will arise out of something negative. i would assume due to this incident, those responsible for SAR in the area will re evaluate their procedures...even though i think they made the correct decision...and many mountain bikers will take a little time to think about preparedness.

don't forget, njhardrock that our sport is inherently dangerous.


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## dstepper (Feb 28, 2004)

Living in Orange County I know that route very well. In fact many of us snow ride up there. He rode by more than a few bailouts and did not take them. Since it is a ridgeline route the clouds would have seeing very far tough leading to his confusion on where he was. He continued to ride his bike proofing that a quad or moto could also have been used to find him. A moto can cover the whole length of the Main Divide in about 40 minutes. Motos sneak around the gates and ride out there all the time knowing that they won't get busted on the illegal stuff because the Forest Service or Sherriff is not out there in bad weather. I wonder at what point his wife knew that SAR was not going out that night. Believe me I have a handful of friends with motos that would have been to me in a hour if the call went to them. This proofs to me 911 should be the second call. These rescues are time sensitive and delays but people at risk. 

Yes he made mistakes, so do people when they leave food on the stove and go to bed and it catches fire. Point is rescue workers are used to assessing risk and I don't think the risks where that high in this case. SAR week sauce. 

Dean Stepper
Laguna Beach CA


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## bamwa (Mar 15, 2010)

I wonder if the sars are donut eating cops or people in good shape. Prolly some of each.
I got cold and lost at Oak Mtn one winter night. Freaked me out but made it down. Was trying to get a whole loop starting late. Called a ranger who said" How would I how you get out we have a hundred miles of trails."


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## Tone's (Nov 12, 2011)

She&I said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> I think you might be surprised where family members end up online, digging for remembrances about a loved one. I've seen it commonly on climbing web sites where a relative joins the conversation about a fallen athlete. Words written on the net are immortal. Four kids will certainly, in time, want to know more about the dad they lost.
> 
> ...


You make some good points, i was a bit insensitive, apologies to his kids or family if they ever read this and all the power to them, cheers


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## dstepper (Feb 28, 2004)

bamwa said:


> I wonder if the sars are donut eating cops or people in good shape.


In Riverside county they are volunteers. That may have been part of the problem.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

dstepper said:


> In Riverside county they are volunteers. That may have been part of the problem.


For every person they save, they are also part of the solution. It's a double edged sword.


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## Tomahawk3Niner (Feb 13, 2014)

dstepper said:


> In Riverside county they are volunteers. That may have been part of the problem.





terrasmak said:


> For every person they save, they are also part of the solution. It's a double edged sword.


They are [civilian] volunteers most places. They also receive training. IME they don't let just anyone sign up and go at it with out making sure they know what they are doing.

In this case it sounds like it was a SAR team organized by the Sheriff's department, where the team likely got orders from the Sheriff/County Officials.


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## mtnrsq (Jun 21, 2013)

dstepper said:


> In Riverside county they are volunteers. That may have been part of the problem.


Just because someone is a volunteer it means they aren't trained and capable of doing the job. Volunteer = don't get paid. Don't assume any more than that. The VAST majority of wilderness SAR in the western US is done by volunteers. There are VERY few paid personnel. The local county Sheriff has the legal responsibility to respond to wilderness SAR incidents. Official SAR teams have an affiliation with the Sheriff as a result. The Sheriff may also have 4x4 teams, mounted posses, communication units, and other groups that participate as well. Typically the Sheriff will have a sworn deputy (Sgt., Lt. or similar) as the Incident Commander, but most of the key operations, planning and related functions are performed by experienced volunteers who are trained and have the skills to do the job. Remember, a professional is not solely defined as someone who gets paid to do a job.

It is not unusual for mountain SAR teams to be made up of extremely experienced personnel. This includes all-season mountaineering experience in places like AK, Canada, Asia, etc., long distance hiking (18-20 miles a day with 30+ lb packs), 50+ mile MTB rides, trail running, etc. Operating on a field crew on a SAR operation requires significant fitness levels and team members work hard to maintain that fitness. Remember that once you find someone you have to be prepared to treat and stabilize them and then get them out. This is all while keeping yourself and your teammates safe as well.

Does this mean that there aren't some people who aren't as fit? Absolutely! I have seen plenty of paid professional first responders that struggle to deal with wilderness SAR situations if the call can't be handled by a helicopter or is more than a couple miles beyond road access.

I wasn't there and was not privy to the factors the incident commander used to make a decision to wait to deploy field crews so I won't critique the response on a public forum.

This has been a very sad situation and nothing can make the family whole. What we can do is make sure it doesn't happen again. Your local SAR team is probably looking for the skilled, fit and motivated team member YOU could be. Don't just be a Monday morning QB. Do something to make a difference for ANYONE that may need help in the future or at a minimum, make sure you are prepared and avoid needing SAR help at all. The best incident is the one that never happens.


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## Bigb2000 (May 20, 2013)

Definitely a wake up call for me. I've never had any major close calls, but it only takes once. It's also another reason I use strava. I post up when finished so my wife knows I've completed my ride and am headed home. As in most tragic accidents, one bad decision leads to another. This loss for his family will probably lead to others being more prepared.


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

shekky said:


> you're right...some of them are scout troops.
> 
> Search and Rescue Merit Badge and Worksheet


I try to learn something new everyday, and you provided. I am an adult leader in all three of our scout units (pack, troop, venture crew), and had no idea that troops can serve in SAR capacity. I suppose it makes sense, they can be tasked to cover safe ground. We once sent our older boys to Tn to help the grandparents of one of the boys who had lost their house in a tornado. Not SAR, but tons of debris to remove with nails, glass, etc.

My experience with SAR teams has been limited to rescues in terrain that required abseiling, or steep trail terrain. Everyone I've met was a certified abseil instructor, and a few certified SAR instructor. Most have day jobs with a fire or police department, quite a few are military past or present, but some have regular jobs. I suppose this can vary from place to place, but I still consider SAR teams to be comprised of people that are professional in their SAR abilities.

Same goes for the scouts. As an adult leader that is active in running outings, I receive regular training in basic first aid, wilderness first aid, CPR, abseiling, determining safe conditions and weather, etc. as I must be trusted to make the right call for any event we participate in. The BSA has us leaning well towards the side of safety. If they are using scouts, I would trust that the SAR coordinator has made a good judgement call on the conditions in regards to who he is letting perform a search, and any scout troop will have adult leaders with them while conducting a search that agrees with the SAR coordinator assessment.

That said, earning the SAR merit badge does not require participation in a SAR event or association with a SAR team. Like many merit badges, it requires the scout to focus on the basic fundamentals of how a SAR team works and to learn basics that help a SAR team member be a safe and efficient component in a rescue.

Moving on, I remember way back in the day, as a fresh young Marine, going out and doing hundred milers on the hot N.C. coastal tarmac with very little to eat, just a few bananas and maybe two or three dollars for a gas station stop. I would tank up well at the chow hall first, but I have no idea how I did that. I don't think, though, that I could have done that on a mountain bike on a soft trail. Even if the trail was very improved, (smooth, rolling) it would have been a hard push to do that distance with no food, even with 60-70 psi.

Ah, space blankets! I always have one in my bag, even in the summer. It's amazing how close you can be to civilization, but yet so far. I've stopped to take a break for as as long as an hour on popular trails in one of our metro parks, and didn't have a single soul pass by. Traffic depends on the day. Many parts of the trails you can see housing and roads, but cannot be seen or heard. All it takes is damaging the bike and breaking a leg or ankle and you can't get out. Make that phone call if you can, but it will take about 30 minutes for the EMT's to arrive and organize their gear, and another hour or more to reach you by foot. Late in the afternoon, at the bottom of a run between ridges, temps will start dropping fast once the sun is below the ridge line. You are injured, low on energy, and now shivering. Your immune system is under attack. Even in surviving, your looking at a longer recovery than if you have been able to remain warm. Warm brings not only physical comfort, but also mental, and can help you think more clearly and make better decisions.

Spare tubes, bike tool kit, phone or radio, energy bars, space blanket and 30ft paracord live in my seat pack.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Flamingtaco said:


> ....Spare tubes, bike tool kit, phone or radio, energy bars, space blanket and 30ft paracord live in my seat pack.


And duct tape. And enough spare clothing to stay survivably warm. Include a fresh base layer to replace the wet one against your skin. If you're riding familiar trails in a group, less to worry about. If alone, be more concerned.


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## MTBNate (Apr 6, 2004)

Tragic & Avoidable.

Remember this sad story from a few years ago?
http://forums.mtbr.com/passion/another-mt-biker-dies-porcupine-rim-109447.html


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## Flamingtaco (Mar 12, 2012)

Gasp4Air said:


> And duct tape. And enough spare clothing to stay survivably warm. Include a fresh base layer to replace the wet one against your skin. If you're riding familiar trails in a group, less to worry about. If alone, be more concerned.


I agree... I should have clarified that the list was my base minimum for dry summer conditions. I have two sizes of seat packs to accomodate varying riding conditions, and also a seatpost rack with pannier bag for the occasional winter ride and every scout ride. In the big bag I can easily store extra thermal layers, rain gear, tent footprint to serve as a tarp, water bladder, etc, all inside a dry bag 

Forgot to mention I also always have my base medical kit: bandaids, mesh bandages, tape, iodine or equivalent, bush and bug allergy relief, finger splints, aspirin, ibuprofen, epi pen, and a few more items not in my brain at the moment. Some will view this as overkill, but having been involved in scouting for ten years so far, I tend to pack as if I'm at a scout event. It's probably a good thing as I often take my boys with me when I hit the trails, and they want to ride further each time we go.


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## jerry68 (Aug 23, 2007)

If you are not going to be prepared for an emergency situation, at least be prepared for an emergency Personal Locator Beacons (PLBs) | ACR ARTEX


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## ohkeepah (Nov 26, 2013)

Kit for cold weather riding on long, remote rides (not including food, energy stuff and water):

- Small first aid kit (tape, gauze pads, neosporin, butterfly & assorted bandages, ibuprofen, antacid)
- iodine tablets
- Lighter and small chunk of fire starter
- Emergency blanket
- Light rain shell
- Two tire levers (Pedros)
- Pump and CO2
- Repair kit with multi tool, extra presta valve core, extra derailleur hanger, chain tool, 2 zip ties, super glue, patches
- GPS (on iphone, I use Mountain Bike Pro because it has an offline map feature that will show you where you are even without cell signal)
- Headlamp for emergency light source
- Extra tube (I run tubeless and only carry the extra tube on long rides)

All of this weighs a little over 3 lbs, not including pack of course. Not much weight.


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## Kliemann53 (Aug 11, 2009)

jerry68 said:


> If you are not going to be prepared for an emergency situation, at least be prepared for an emergency Personal Locator Beacons (PLBs) | ACR ARTEX


A PLB wouldn't have changed anything, rain gear and a granola bar probably would have saved his life.


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## mtnrsq (Jun 21, 2013)

jerry68 said:


> If you are not going to be prepared for an emergency situation, at least be prepared for an emergency Personal Locator Beacons (PLBs) | ACR ARTEX


A PLB or similar (SPOT, etc.) type device is wonderful to helping make the "search" part of SAR _much_ simpler.

It will not necessarily make the "rescue" part any easier. Bad weather, difficulty of access and/or evacuation, and other objective hazards may mean a rescue will still take hours.

As others have noted, being prepared is the key and has to go beyond a cell phone or other emergency signaling device. You may be in pain or uncomfortable, but you will dramatically improve your odds of a positive outcome if you can stay warm, dry and hydrated. The converse is sadly true as well. Stack the odds in your favor.

Other posters have mentioned bivy sacks and emergency blankets. One of the cheapest, easiest, lightest and functional pieces of emergency equipment you can carry is a large heavy duty trash bag. Tear a hole in it for your head and arms and put it on like a poncho and voila, you have a waterproof shelter that will cut the wind and keep the rain off. I have seen it contribute directly to the survival of victims that would not have made it otherwise.


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

Hypothermia can sneak up on you and by the time you have it you may not be able to reverse it on your own. There was an incident where 7 people were canoeing and they decided to jump in for a swim. When searchers found them they were all dead just floating in the water. Why did they not get out of the water? Once you have hypothermia you can actually start feeling warmer. 

Years back I was hunting all day from a treestand. When I got down and started warming up I could not stop shaking. It took about two hrs for me to stop shaking. I'm certain that if I had stayed there much longer I never would have left. My condolences to Mr Marin's family.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

RossJamis;11058215... There was an incident where 7 people were canoeing and they decided to jump in for a swim. When searchers found them they were all dead just floating in the water. Why did they not get out of the water? ...[/QUOTE said:


> A dangerous scenario for water sports occurs in the spring: warm air, icy cold water. When you hit sufficiently cold water, there's a thermal shock that is immediately disabling, seriously reducing your ability to think straight or perform physically. Perhaps that is what happened in the incident you describe.


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## kris7047th (Dec 27, 2013)

Njhardrock said:


> This thread should be locked... A guy died and all people have to say is what ( they ) would do or how he didn't prepare enough....common guys none of us were there be adults and if you don't have anything positive to say then shut the f up..... Stuff happens you don't know what happened so don't assume the worst....
> 
> My regards to to his family real shame 4 kids lost a dad....


Ah .. but those reading this thread can learn from his mistakes to avoid the same possible fate should this happen to them.

My cell phone is in a Mophie case .. flip the switch and it recharges my dead cell phone to full power for another 10 hours. Just an idea if anyone is interested.


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

Cell phones are great when they work but I have biked/hiked many areas where I could not get service. I think its really important to be able to keep yourself warm till you are found and that means food/shelter and a way to start a fire. I have a fire starter kit inside my seat tube on my bike.


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## kris7047th (Dec 27, 2013)

RossJamis said:


> Cell phones are great when they work but I have biked/hiked many areas where I could not get service. I think its really important to be able to keep yourself warm till you are found and that means food/shelter and a way to start a fire. I have a fire starter kit inside my seat tube on my bike.


Where I live .. plenty of towers so reception not much of a problem, but you are absolutely correct with what you have just in case for shelter, fire. I have the same packed away in a small backpack (and protection)


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

What I have found is even in areas where there are plenty of towers you can lose reception in small areas.. One place I always lose reception is actually right next to a cell phone tower. In a worse case scenario you could break a leg or otherwise be immobilized and not be able to traverse the distance to an area where your phone works. Its always best to plan for the worst. I would also strongly suggest that people practice making a fire in adverse conditions. You should be able to start a fire with matches and only stuff you can find on hand in the woods.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

RossJamis said:


> You should be able to start a fire with matches and only stuff you can find on hand in the woods.


Like magnesium pedals!


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## kris7047th (Dec 27, 2013)

RossJamis said:


> I would also strongly suggest that people practice making a fire in adverse conditions. You should be able to start a fire with matches and only stuff you can find on hand in the woods.


Matches fail too easily, especially if they get wet or even try to start a fire in rain. I have a *Blast Match* which is better.


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

kris7047th said:


> Matches fail too easily, especially if they get wet or even try to start a fire in rain. I have a *Blast Match* which is better.


That's the point you need to be able to start a fire with minimal equipment. Then carry what works best. I've seen many people that could not start a fire with newspaper and dry firewood. If you can not start one and keep it going in favorable conditions you will not be able to do it when your life depends on it.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

RossJamis said:


> That's the point you need to be able to start a fire with minimal equipment. Then carry what works best. I've seen many people that could not start a fire with newspaper and dry firewood. If you can not start one and keep it going in favorable conditions you will not be able to do it when your life depends on it.


i always carry a lighter and some toilet paper with me...


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## kris7047th (Dec 27, 2013)

shekky said:


> i always carry a lighter and some toilet paper with me...


Save the TP for other purposes and go with clothes dryer lint .. you can compress quite a bit in a small plastic bag and it works better. Soak it in some vasoline.


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## lotusdriver (Sep 15, 2013)

KRob said:


> Given his confused and disoriented state when he called his wife I wonder if he'd crashed and was suffering concussion symptoms. Hypothermia can cause similar symptoms though, so who's to say? That's the thing that a lot of people don't get about hypothermia is that it doesn't have to be that cold to die from it. 40-45 degrees F and wet for several hours is plenty cold to kill.
> 
> Sad story. As one who also rides solo in remote locations (and has crashed and been disoriented from a concussion) it really made me take a little re-assessment of my preparedness level.


I was riding a local loop recently and came off, falling fairly hard on my right side. There were no broken bones or anything, but the fall really messed me up.

I was dressed for the cold weather, with a waterproof lined jacket and tights etc. but still got wet on my right side as I fell into a gully with standing water.
I got back on the bike but I was shivering and suddenly felt cold. My arm hurt and I had to ride pretty much one handed.Fortunately I was near to home as I would not have liked to ride any distance in that state.

I'm guessing this guy fell off, and ended up in a similar state. He stopped riding at his normal speed and got cold.

It's really sad. But I'm surprised he went out so lightly dressed in those conditions.


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## cbr6fs (Apr 1, 2008)

RossJamis said:


> Cell phones are great when they work but I have biked/hiked many areas where I could not get service. I think its really important to be able to keep yourself warm till you are found and that means food/shelter and a way to start a fire. I have a fire starter kit inside my seat tube on my bike.


Had a few pretty serious injuries myself MTBing over the years, had hiking buddies that have injured themselves and have come across several people on the trail with injuries.

In my experience there is no one thing that puts someone in a life threatening situation, it's a catalogue of events and choices that lead up to that point.

It's easy to sit here and imagine how we'd act under certain situations, in the real world though we're confused, frightened, hungry, severely cold/hot and often dehydrated.
Any one of these things will make a MASSIVE impact on our decision making process, added together clear thinking often goes out the window.

In mild conditions we could "get away" with just sitting down and waiting, throw in colder or even hotter weather though and our window for getting rescued gets dramatically smaller.

Fire would be fantastic in cold conditions, as not only does it keep you warm both the smoke and the fire are excellent signalling tools.
Problem is though for a fire to be effective at giving enough warmth it will need a LOT of fuel, if you're injured that's going to be extremely difficult to provide.

It's also extremely difficult to get a fire started in the conditions it's likely to be needed (cold and wet or even snow).
You'll need to find decent tinder, then dry twigs, even then if it's really damp you'll struggle to get larger logs dry enough to burn.

I'm pretty good at getting camp fires going with the most basic of tools, i've succeeded many times in getting a fire from bow drills, hand drills and a few other friction fire methods (it's something of a hobby), i still wouldn't bet my life that i could get a decent fire going 100% of the time even with my fire starter kit.
Give me a axe and a decent fixed blade and i'd say i could do it 99 times out of 100, but if we start taking Axes with us then we're not really MTBing any more we're camping.

A emergency bivvy bag is light weight and a effective shelter and heat retention device.
If it's really cold though then it's not enough by itself to stave off hypothermia, you'll need enough warm clothing as well.

That's another thing.
If it's wet and your clothing is wet through, then it might sound crazy, but with fabrics like cotton you'll do better going commando as the wet fabric will act like a large heat sink effectively wicking heat away from your body.
Interesting story here of a woman lost for 11 days, it was only the forethought of stripping off her wet clothings and determination that kept her alive.
Lost:..... NAKED 11 days in "ALASKA"


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## kris7047th (Dec 27, 2013)

A small emergency blanket to wrap up in while clothes are drying out. They can be found in the sporting goods/camping aisles at Walmart, Cabela etc. They are very small and lightweight. Your back pack shouldn't be without one.


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## cbr6fs (Apr 1, 2008)

kris7047th said:


> A small emergency blanket to wrap up in while clothes are drying out. They can be found in the sporting goods/camping aisles at Walmart, Cabela etc. They are very small and lightweight. Your back pack shouldn't be without one.


Problem with emergency blankets is, they only reflect heat so your body needs to be putting out heat enough for the blanket to be effective.
Granted if we are alive our bodies put out heat BUT a lot of the heat a silver foil type emergency blanket gets is lost through convection, so they don't reflect 100% of the heat they receive, this is fine for most circumstances but if you approaching hypothermia then your body is already starting to shut down so they'll be even less use.

If you are wearing clothing that insulate up your body temperature these blankets are a great addition, but on their own they provide very little in the way of insulation.

If you were to stand up and do star jumps for say 1 min every 10 mins your body would generate heat that the blanket would then reflect, so that'd be better.

I used to carry a couple as they're light and take up very little pack space, but after experimenting with them as a warmth device i felt they were very limited.
Best way i found of using them is to wear them between me and my sleeping bag, as they don't breath though condensation from sweat becomes a problem half way through the night.

They do make fantastic reflectors when placed a suitable distance behind a fire though, add a bit of a curve to them and you can even direct a lot of heat towards you even from a small fire.


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

Don't forget the large plastic bag! As someone pointed out, put hole in a hole to poke you head through and maybe two for your arms and you can keep riding. Also, a fleece ear warmer head band or a fleece cap that can fit under you helmet can do wonders to keep you from getting chilled in the first place. Thanks to all who are posting information that can keep an emergency from turning into tragedy.


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## kris7047th (Dec 27, 2013)

cbr6fs said:


> Problem with emergency blankets is, they only reflect heat so your body needs to be putting out heat enough for the blanket to be effective.
> Granted if we are alive our bodies put out heat BUT a lot of the heat a silver foil type emergency blanket gets is lost through convection, so they don't reflect 100% of the heat they receive, this is fine for most circumstances but if you approaching hypothermia then your body is already starting to shut down so they'll be even less use.
> 
> If you are wearing clothing that insulate up your body temperature these blankets are a great addition, but on their own they provide very little in the way of insulation.
> ...


This was my point. Although not perfect, it's better than nothing when drying out with a fire.


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

The other benefit to a space blanket is using it as a temporary shelter to keep the rain off of you. Just wrapping it over you when its raining is going to keep you much warmer then not. One other thing that I would say is a must have is dry clothing to change into when you stop moving. I don't know about anybody else but my clothes are pretty sweat soaked when I ride and this makes them pretty useless for heat retention when you stop moving. I think the minimum you should carry is a warm hat and a fleece/jacket. Even on short stops you can slip on the jacket to keep from getting chilled.


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

A fire for warmth or signal was likely not an option in this case. Everything was wet from extremely heavy rainfall just prior to his ride. Also, signal fires have started wildfires in multiple cases.

I wonder how many suggesting a "space" blanket have used one. I wouldn't bother packing one – way too fragile. One wrong movement on anything but smooth ground and that thing is split wide open. The main danger with these IMO is thinking you have a decent shelter when you really don't. I'd sooner bring trash bag or a light storm shell with a hood.

Clothes drying in cold/dank conditions? Good luck. I just did it a couple months ago, after attempting impromptu bivy in a rain/snow storm with a mylar "space" blanket. (Note to self: don't forget storm-worthy bivy bag.) Clothes dried, but took hours in an ideal natural shelter, after spending untold effort and time locating/collecting dry fuel. Not a practical activity for someone injured or otherwise incapacitated.

A spare dry upper body layer, even a super thin one, works instantly and allows activity to happen, unlike a bivy or mylar bag. Size your storm shell on the generous size so you can sit with your whole self under it.

Buck up and buy a locator beacon. Like a small first aid kit, you don't even know it's in your pack. It may not be a fail-safe, but if you're immobilized or in trouble, it adds a layer of possible solution to your situation by turning a SAR into a rescue only.


PS: Tone's: Thank you.


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## cbr6fs (Apr 1, 2008)

kris7047th said:


> This was my point. Although not perfect, it's better than nothing when drying out with a fire.


The thing is Kris how many MTBers have the equipment and skills necessary to create and maintain a fire on what is likely to be a very cold and/or wet day?

As i say primitive fire starting techniques is a bit of a hobby for me, it's something i've been experimenting with for many years in many different environments and conditions.

If you dumped me in a stressful situation on a soaked hillside in the rain even with a firesteel i'd still struggle to get a fire going long enough to dry out larger logs.
If i had a axe i could split the wood to get to the drier parts, i'd even consider using a decent knife to baton the log, or a silky saw to split it.

But like i said how many take a axe, good solid knife or saw on their usual local rides?

A inner tube or tyre would make a fantastic bit of fuel (i use inner tubes cut into ranger bands for to keep my fire starting kit dry and closed as they also make great fire starters), they also put off a fair amount of smoke so great for showing your location on less windy days.
You'd still struggle to get enough heat and burn time to dry out larger logs enough for them to burn though.

All things considered starting a fire would be a great boost to both your moral, chances of being found and chances of surviving a cold wet night.
Personally though i pack enough clothing and kit (emergency bivvy bag) so as to be able to survive a cold, wet miserable night without NEEDING a fire.

I do this as even though i'm experienced in getting a fire going with limited resources, i don't always ride in wooded areas and i can't guarantee i could get a good fire going even if i was unless i had an axe or at least a strong fixed blade knife or saw.



RossJamis said:


> The other benefit to a space blanket is using it as a temporary shelter to keep the rain off of you. Just wrapping it over you when its raining is going to keep you much warmer then not. One other thing that I would say is a must have is dry clothing to change into when you stop moving. I don't know about anybody else but my clothes are pretty sweat soaked when I ride and this makes them pretty useless for heat retention when you stop moving. I think the minimum you should carry is a warm hat and a fleece/jacket. Even on short stops you can slip on the jacket to keep from getting chilled.


Good points :thumbsup:

It's tough because MTBing is such a high energy activity when we're riding even in really cold conditions all we usually need is a thin base layer with a windproof outer layer.
When we stop though the cold really starts to seep in.

Might be worth thinking:
Do i have enough warmth and waterproof layers to keep me fairly comfortable for say a 1 hour stop for lunch?

When hiking in winter i throw in a old belay jacket into my rucksack, it packs small, is fair light, fairly water resistant and it's synthetic filling still retains some warmth when wet.
To be honest i rarely take it MTBing though.


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

She&I said:


> I wonder how many suggesting a "space" blanket have used one. I wouldn't bother packing one - way too fragile. One wrong movement on anything but smooth ground and that thing is split wide open. The main danger with these IMO is thinking you have a decent shelter when you really don't. I'd sooner bring trash bag or a light storm shell with a hood.


I'm pretty sure at least one of us has not used a space blanket. There are no seams to split open on a space blanket. I think you are talking about a space bag.. A friend of a friend took one of those on a backpacking trip. He was laughing at the others because they were carrying heavy bags. His laughing stopped when he froze all night long. I have had the same space blanket for 30 years and its still in one piece. And no its not still in the package. They are not perfect but they are better then having nothing.


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## JookupVandetti (May 3, 2011)

Very sad story. In hindsight a lot could have been done differently from everyone involved.

This story make me wonder though about Strava. As most of you know it's an app a lot of us use to mark our rides. I wonder if it's possible for Strava to be contacted in an emergency and access the riders account to find the location. I know if you upload the ride your friends can see it but what if your phone dies?


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

RossJamis said:


> I'm pretty sure at least one of us has not used a space blanket. There are no seams to split open on a space blanket. I think you are talking about a space bag..


I do see that quilted thingamajig you're calling a space blanket, but conventionally, those too-thin mylar rigs are known as space blankets.

space blanket - Google Search

Space bags are here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=spa...=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&imgdii=_

Nomenclature aside, point taken. I'd feel infinitely more confident with a multi-layer number like yours than, essentially, a cellophane bivy bag. But I would carry a light storm shell before either. Cheers...


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## mtnrsq (Jun 21, 2013)

I'm glad to see the discussion focusing on what we can do to avoid tragedies like this in the future.

There are other things that can greatly improve your chances of being found if something happens. It is surprisingly difficult to spot things from the air and it is not unusual for helicopters to fly right over people and not see them. Being able to signal for help effectively is important. 

A whistle is very light and the sound travels a LONG way. It also takes very little effort to use and is far less taxing than shouting for help. Mirrors are great for signalling aircraft or ground searchers from long distances and a flashing on a hillside will definitely get checked out. Finally, a simple light source - chemical light stick or flash from a camera can be seen very easily if night vision equipment is being used. That small fire you lit is going to be very visible as well. Brightly colored clothing will also help the SAR team spot you.


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## palerider (Jul 15, 2004)

JookupVandetti said:


> Very sad story. In hindsight a lot could have been done differently from everyone involved.
> 
> This story make me wonder though about Strava. As most of you know it's an app a lot of us use to mark our rides. I wonder if it's possible for Strava to be contacted in an emergency and access the riders account to find the location. I know if you upload the ride your friends can see it but what if your phone dies?


I have wondered this myself. If I synch my ride wouldn't it show exactly where I was at if you looked at my profile?


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## cbr6fs (Apr 1, 2008)

mtnrsq said:


> I'm glad to see the discussion focusing on what we can do to avoid tragedies like this in the future.
> 
> There are other things that can greatly improve your chances of being found if something happens. It is surprisingly difficult to spot things from the air and it is not unusual for helicopters to fly right over people and not see them. Being able to signal for help effectively is important.
> 
> A whistle is very light and the sound travels a LONG way. It also takes very little effort to use and is far less taxing than shouting for help. Mirrors are great for signalling aircraft or ground searchers from long distances and a flashing on a hillside will definitely get checked out. Finally, a simple light source - chemical light stick or flash from a camera can be seen very easily if night vision equipment is being used. That small fire you lit is going to be very visible as well. Brightly colored clothing will also help the SAR team spot you.


Great advice

Not sure if you've seen it but there is a good thread on stuff people carry for emergencies here
http://forums.mtbr.com/california-norcal/what-do-you-carry-case-emergency-902224.html


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## cbr6fs (Apr 1, 2008)

palerider said:


> I have wondered this myself. If I synch my ride wouldn't it show exactly where I was at if you looked at my profile?


Problem is, it uses the cell phone towers reception to send your position.
No cell phone signal no position.

Plus although modern chips are a lot better than earlier examples, GPS can still have glitches.

My old HTC phone had me in a position that way 1km away from my actual position a few times over the years.
Sure the odds are it will be reading fairly close most the time, but if life has taught me one thing it's things tend to go wrong at the worst possible time.

Personally i use GPS and find it extremely useful, the vast majority of the time it's accurate to within a few meters.
When riding in familiar areas i use it mainly for data recording (HR, speed, cadence etc)
When hiking in areas i'm unfamiliar with though i still recheck my position with my map and compass.

I have had a few GPS's that have died for no particular reason over the years, likewise phones lock up, batteries die, my old S3 lost a GPS signal on two separate occasions in two different areas, even after shutting it off, removing the battery and turning back on, it still wouldn't lock onto as single satellite again.

To balance that out i'm certain there are thousands of cases each year where a mobile phone and/or GPS location has saved lives.

So for me personally i'll happily grasp any technology that could help me, but i prefer not to trust my well being on 1 thing.
If i'm out in wild areas i always try to prepare for the worst.

Couple of things that i do that can be useful in a emergency.

1/ Leave out a printed rough itinerary and exact route for my Mrs, i also send it via email to outdoors mate.

2/ Try to have enough clothing and kit with me to suit the conditions, it wouldn't be a comfortable night, but i should survive it kinda kit

3/ If a bad situation arises and it's not time sensitive, then take a few mins to think through your options.
I once had several flats on one ride, i'd used my spare tube and all my patches (long before tubeless), it was around 20 miles back to the car and i was in the middle of nowhere (Scotland).
First thought was to push the bike back, but after sitting and weighing up my options for a min i worked out that i wouldn't be back to the car until the following morning.

In the end i cut the inner tube, tied both ends off then stuffed long grass in the section of tyre that was missing the section of the tube.
Result was it got me back to the car, tyre was absolutely knackered and the ride was terrible but it meant not having to spend a night out in foul weather.

So taking a few mins and thinking things through can be a major help, sounds stupid but i do find i have a tendency to just get my head down and plough on through problems, which is not always the best way.


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## Kliemann53 (Aug 11, 2009)

shekky said:


> i always carry a lighter and some toilet paper with me...


Lighters don't work if they get wet.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Kliemann53 said:


> Lighters don't work if they get wet.


good point.

now i'm going to carry it in a ziploc plastic bag. it's already in a pouch.

as a matter of fact, i ought to buy another one and throw it in my first aid pouch which lives in a part of my camelbak least likely to get wet.


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## kris7047th (Dec 27, 2013)

Kliemann53 said:


> Lighters don't work if they get wet.


Yes .. You have to plan ahead for the worst scenario and hope for the best. Decide which option is most likely to be the most dependable under a variety of situations. A small bag of compressed dryer lint soaked with vasoline & Blast Match will light up under damp/wet conditions.


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## jerry68 (Aug 23, 2007)

Kliemann53 said:


> A PLB wouldn't have changed anything, rain gear and a granola bar probably would have saved his life.





jerry68 said:


> If you are not going to be prepared for an emergency situation, at least be prepared for an emergency Personal Locator Beacons (PLBs) | ACR ARTEX


If he'd have punched the button at 5:30pm, instead of calling his Wife, and SAR knew where he was, things would have been more likely to turn out better. Either way my point was more that if you refuse to take responsibility to carry the basic items most of us carry for back-country adventuring, then at least make it easy for rescuers to recover the body.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

shekky said:


> good point.
> 
> now i'm going to carry it in a ziploc plastic bag. it's already in a pouch.
> 
> as a matter of fact, i ought to buy another one and throw it in my first aid pouch which lives in a part of my camelbak least likely to get wet.


That's what I do (in Alaska). I also have fire-starting materials with me.


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## cbr6fs (Apr 1, 2008)

kris7047th said:


> Yes .. You have to plan ahead for the worst scenario and hope for the best. Decide which option is most likely to be the most dependable under a variety of situations. A small bag of compressed dryer lint soaked with vasoline & Blast Match will light up under damp/wet conditions.


Your tinder will burn absolutely no doubt, but what happens after that's burnt away?

If it's been raining for a while it takes a fair bit of walking around to find anything remotely dry enough to burn only then if you are lucky and you know where to look.

As i say primitive fire starting is a bit of a hobby of mine, in winter i'm practising pretty much daily and have for around 30 years.
Even if i'm sat at home in the living room in front of the fire place, dry, warm, relaxed with 5 tons of firewood sitting a few meters away and have all my tools at my disposal it's still a challenge to get a good fire going with wet wood.

A inner tube will burn for longer and hotter than Vaseline coated lint or cotton wool, even then it's still a major pain in the ass to start a fire in wet conditions.

For those that have a fireplace please try it out first.
Go through your firewood pile and find some branches from around pencil thick to coke can thick.
When it's raining lay them out in the garden for a couple of days to get a good soaking.
Now without a axe or knife and using only lint soaked in Vaseline try and start a decent fire and keep it going for 1 hour.

It needs a LOT of patience, knowledge on how to build a fire, experience and even then a fair bit of luck.

My advice is, unless you're transporting 3 litres of napalm i would not rely of starting a fire to keep you alive.

It's a romantic notion that these staged "survival" TV shows portray but in the real world it's extremely tough to get a fire going with primitive tools in very wet conditions.



jerry68 said:


> If he'd have punched the button at 5:30pm, instead of calling his Wife, and SAR knew where he was, things would have been more likely to turn out better. Either way my point was more that if you refuse to take responsibility to carry the basic items most of us carry for back-country adventuring, then at least make it easy for rescuers to recover the body.


Agree 100%


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## ozzybmx (Jun 30, 2008)

Always sad to hear these stories.

Spot2 here for piece of mind on remote solo rides. 

I also run the "track" function.


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

cbr6fs said:


> Your tinder will burn absolutely no doubt, but what happens after that's burnt away?
> 
> If it's been raining for a while it takes a fair bit of walking around to find anything remotely dry enough to burn only then if you are lucky and you know where to look.
> 
> ...


 You may have lots of practice starting fires but many of your comments show that you really don't know what starting a survival fire is about. A survival fire does not need to have logs or coke can size pieces of wood. A very small fire that is maintained will warm you up. When starting a fire in adverse conditions you don't begin with pencil size pieces you begin with toothpick size pieces and slowly build from there. Your right that it is not easy and that is why its important to practice when your life doesn't depend on it. I have built fires on top of snow in the rain and if you don't rush the process it is never impossible.


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## cbr6fs (Apr 1, 2008)

RossJamis said:


> You may have lots of practice starting fires but many of your comments show that you really don't know what starting a survival fire is about. A survival fire does not need to have logs or coke can size pieces of wood. A very small fire that is maintained will warm you up. When starting a fire in adverse conditions you don't begin with pencil size pieces you begin with toothpick size pieces and slowly build from there. Your right that it is not easy and that is why its important to practice when your life doesn't depend on it. I have built fires on top of snow in the rain and if you don't rush the process it is never impossible.


Problem is, with soaked wood you NEED to get enough heat from the fire to dry out the next batch of wood you're going to burn, the ONLY way you can do that is with larger logs.

If you start splitting logs then things start to get a LOT easier, but as i say carrying a axe or a knife stout enough to batton with is not really what most folks carry.

The other problems you overlook are:

1/ Good luck finding a nights supply of toothpick to pencil thick dry tinder

2/ Good luck keeping a fire burning all night with such small fuel (it burns out extremely quickly with very little heat, you only need a damp batch of twigs and your fire has gone out)

3/ Good luck getting enough heat out of such a small fire to dry your clothes and keep you warm all night

I also have to ask, if you have the dexterity, energy and mobility enough to scout for what would need to be 100's of yards in all directions looking for such small fuel, why are you not using that energy, mobility and dexterity to get yourself home?

I've played with small wood burning stoves for many years, anyone that has any experience with small fires like these knows exactly the amount of fuel you'd need to keep them stoked all night.
You are talking a arms full of dry dead twigs every 30 mins, it's just not realistic to keep this burning all night, that's why we move onto larger logs.
Larger logs literally gives us more time to burn, you also get to a point where the fire puts out THAT much heat it will dry the logs you have put around the fire ready for when you burn them.

I'm English so have a fair bit of experience in wet weather 

One last thing,
Who is to say that you'll be stranded in a wooded area?
Even if you are in a wooded area who's to say that the area around you wouldn't be extremely steep, enough to make straying off the path dangerous?
What if you have a broken leg?
A fire is simply not a possibility then.

What about if you've broken an arm or had what seems to be the most common MTBer injury and broken collar bone, can you build, start and maintain your fire with 1 arm?

Having a active survival plan is fantastic, it's absolutely pointless unless you have a passive survival plan though, a plan which means you have enough clothing or weather protection with you to survive a night out without needing to actively create enough heat to live.

What you see on TV is NOT realistic, in the real world wet soaking wood does not magically take with one strike of a fire steel and you can't "edit in" a healthy stock of re cut fire wood for the night.


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

cbr6fs said:


> Problem is, with soaked wood you NEED to get enough heat from the fire to dry out the next batch of wood you're going to burn, the ONLY way you can do that is with larger logs.
> 
> If you start splitting logs then things start to get a LOT easier, but as i say carrying a axe or a knife stout enough to batton with is not really what most folks carry.
> 
> ...


Look I don't want to waste everyone's time by debating every silly statement you make and believe me there are many.. You've bragged repeatedly about tons of experience in fire starting but your statements show an ignorance of real world application. I will just sum it up in this, it is not necessary to split firewood to maintain a fire that will keep you warm. It is also not necessary to completely dry out your clothes in order to stay warm. A very small fire and something that can reflect the heat back to you can do a very adequate job in getting you through the night. 
Your "what if's" are really just pointless because there can always be a scenario where your preparations are made useless/Ex: What if you fall in the water and all your clothes including your spares are soaked? 
I wish you the best.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Lets put aside the argument of who knows more about making fire in an emergency situation. I think it's safe to say that without the requisite skills, making a fire in wet conditions, especially if injured or hypothermic, is not going to be a ready option for most of us. By all means, pack waterproof matches, but other options mentioned in this thread are more practical and require no special skills. Proper clothing and shelter, calories, charged cell phone, compass, etc, etc. All of these are measures can be taken by anyone who wants to be prepared for when things go wrong.


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## Centurion_ (Aug 13, 2011)

> "Your "what if's" are really just pointless because there can always be a scenario where your preparations are made useless."


Many scenarios can make attempting to start and maintain a fire in adverse conditions useless. That is his point, and it's a good one.

In the present case, it had been raining. A lot. All the little twigs you say you can use to start and then sustain your fire for hours on end (assuming there were any), were soaking wet.

Giving people the idea that practicing on dry tinder at home and carrying a lighter in their camelback is adequate training to save themselves in this type of emergency simply gives them a false sense of security. In an emergency situation such as this one where the rider was experiencing brain numbing and muscle control inhibiting hypothermia, the rider will most likely fail.

The contributor you are bashing brings up valid points. Points that someone preparing for solo journeys into the wilderness should consider.


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

Centurion_ said:


> Many scenarios can make starting and maintaining a fire useless. That is his point, and it's a good one.
> 
> In the present case, it had been raining. A lot. All the little twigs you say you can use to start and then sustain your fire for hours on end (assuming there were any), were soaking wet.
> 
> ...


Thanks for jumping in and not reading what was posted.. One I never said anything about maintaining a fire with twigs.. I was making the point that you don't start a fire with pencil size twigs. Every boy scout knows this. Nor did I recommend practicing on dry tinder at home that was done by the guy your supporting.. There are situations where a fire is the only thing that will be able to save you. The man who lost his life was in that situation. Even when everything seems like it is soaked there are still ways of finding fuel that will burn.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I've practiced starting fires in the snow when it's cold out in Alaska. Yes, it's EXTREMELY hard when it's cold or wet out. The key is to have some sort of acceleratant/fuel that you can use to keep it going until you can get fuel dried out enough for it to sustain on it's own. The alternative is expending a crazy amount of your own energy to try and keep the thing going (scrounging the dry-ish fuel), while your hands become inoperable due to the cold and hypothermia. Even "cheating" doesn't make starting a sustainable fire easy. 

So on solo rides when I ride in cold temps away from help I do take a "firestarting kit". It's more than just a lighter, I've learned it takes more. 

In any case, BE PREPARED. It's so nice to go out riding when it's in the single digits and you have just the right amount of clothing on, pogies, the right jacket, the right balaclava, etc. You feel great and it doesn't feel like anything special, yet get someone from a warmer climate and put him out there without the right clothing and it can easily become a life and death matter. I used to go riding in AZ sometimes when it was in the teens and colder, even down to around -5 once, but I was miserable every time. I've commuted and done trails when it's -15 with no problems. On bigger rides you plan for clothing you might need, layers, a place to put the layers you don't need at the time, food, redundant backups, etc. 

It's not about taking a SAR device or starting a fire, it's about taking reasonable precautions and being prepared. Being prepared doesn't hinge on those two things, yet there should ALWAYS be a cushion of safety you have designed into your ride, whether it's in the stuff you bring, how many people you go with, or the ability to modify your plan and "come out" without having to backtrack or make it to an unreasonable destination. This seems to be what is missing sometimes in a few situations that turn tragic. It's not about any one thing that would have been the "magic bullet" and saved it all, it's about the cushion of safety that should have been there to start with to prevent getting into a situation where the options become so narrow that they hinge on one thing (the search and rescue team deploying that night).


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

Jayem said:


> It's not about taking a SAR device or starting a fire, it's about taking reasonable precautions and being prepared. Being prepared doesn't hinge on those two things, yet there should ALWAYS be a cushion of safety you have designed into your ride, whether it's in the stuff you bring, how many people you go with, or the ability to modify your plan and "come out" without having to backtrack or make it to an unreasonable destination. This seems to be what is missing sometimes in a few situations that turn tragic. It's not about any one thing that would have been the "magic bullet" and saved it all, it's about the cushion of safety that should have been there to start with to prevent getting into a situation where the options become so narrow that they hinge on one thing (the search and rescue team deploying that night).


Well said.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

_"There are situations where a fire is the only thing that will be able to save you. The man who lost his life was in that situation."_

with all due respect i wonder about this assertion if the victim has suffered a concussion.

_"His speech was slow, and he had difficulty answering questions. He said he had fallen."_

this leads me to believe that mr marin MAY have suffered a head injury and was not thinking clearly. otherwise, he only injuries were scratches and cuts. i'd like to know if mr marin was wearing a helmet or if one was found near him.

however, i agree that fire can save you if you're not too injured to build one.


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

shekky said:


> _"There are situations where a fire is the only thing that will be able to save you. The man who lost his life was in that situation."_
> 
> with all due respect i wonder about this assertion if the victim has suffered a concussion.
> 
> ...


Yes of course he may have been too far along to build a fire. But if he did hit his head that was not what killed him it was hypothermia.. His having slurred speech and difficulty answering questions are normal symptoms of hypothermia. And his falling may have been a result of the lack of coordination that comes with it. If this is what happened and I suspect it is if he has stopped sooner and had a way of warming himself the story might have had a different outcome.


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

RossJamis said:


> Yes of course he may have been too far along to build a fire. But if he did hit his head that was not what killed him it was hypothermia.. His having slurred speech and difficulty answering questions are normal symptoms of hypothermia. And his falling may have been a result of the lack of coordination that comes with it. If this is what happened and I suspect it is if he has stopped sooner and had a way of warming himself the story might have had a different outcome.


just out of curiosity, why do you think it was hypothermia first and not a fall, then the cold?


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

shekky said:


> just out of curiosity, why do you think it was hypothermia first and not a fall, then the cold?


Based on what he was wearing and the weather I would say it was inevitable that he would get hypothermia. The fall may have very likely happened because of loss of muscle control because he was already hypothermic. When he called his wife his speech was slurred and he had difficulty answering questions. These are also signs of hypothermia. If he had not fallen I believe the end result would have been the same. But beyond that here is his wife's statement from the article. "Arista said the Riverside County coroner told her Marin had scratches and cuts but nothing that would have killed him. She believes he simply froze to death."


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## gatorgrizz27 (Feb 12, 2011)

I feel terrible for his family, and it is a lesson we can all learn from. Crazy things can happen, but a space blanket alone may have been able to be fashioned into a poncho and allowed him to ride back without succumbing to the cold, or wait out the weather. Cell phones can break, I pulled mine out of my camelback the other day and the screen had shattered, I didn't crash the entire ride. Hydration bladders can leak, pedals can strip out, any number of things can go wrong. Equip yourself as well as possible to survive.

It's unlikely a head injury led to his demise, even severe brain trauma takes awhile to develop into lethal swelling, and should have been readily visible during autopsy. 

For those blaming the rescuers, yes they sign up for it but imagine if your spouse or child died trying to save someone that made many foolish decisions and may have already been dead before they even found them. While ideally he would have been found quickly, if he had been able to hunker down and stay warm he would have been found eventually, hopefully alive. 

It does surprise me that he wasn't able to maintain his body temp by riding, I'll start off on cool days feeling chilled and warm up almost immediately, but it's another lesson to be learned.

Heck, a space blanket, bic lighter, dry tinder, whistle, knife, bandages, and iodine tablets could be stashed in your seat tube on every bike. Most of us ride with hydration bladders which leaves a ton of room to fill a water bottle with energy bars, unlikely spare parts and more and put it in the bottle cage. I think I'm going to prepare both of my bikes.


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## cbr6fs (Apr 1, 2008)

To try and move on what i believe has become a really useful thread, let me say this.

I'm not arguing that a fire could be a life saver if you're caught out on a really cold and wet night.
My point is that it's a unreliable source of heat.
You may not be in a wood when you stop, you may not be able to get a fire started, you may be injured so wood collection is not possible.

These are all very real scenarios, so my point is it's crazy to trust your life on being able to build a fire.
It's far better to have enough clothing and supplies with you to see you through a cold miserable night.

Sure a fire would make that night a little less miserable, but still in my opinion you should have enough clothing with you to see you through a night.

That doesn't have to be a $200 down jacket either, a fleece jumper and a water/wind proof can often be enough in all but the coldest places, especially if you are lucky enough to find some shelter.

Even then it's imperative to think things through, collect ferns, grass or even branches to sit and/or lay on, anything to keep you off the ground.
If possible keep getting up and moving as vigorously as you can to keep your body heat up, if you can star jumps your ass off every hour or so.

If you have taken shelter it's imperative that you leave some sort of sign on the trail to where you've moved, obviously if it's snowing this is going to prove difficult, but something as basic as hanging a wheel from a branch is better than nothing.

If it's not snowing try to leave a "SOS" in leaves, branches, rocks or whatever you can on a section of trail that's visible from the air, if you've moved off the trail then 2 branches can make a arrow to point where you are going.

As jerry68 said even if you can't make it through the night, you owe it to your family to make it easy as possible to find your body.
Cold and sad but you'd be surprised how many hikers are still missing, many years after they disappeared.
There is a great site here with entertaining and respectful writing on the pitfalls of searching for lost outdoors enthusiasts, if ever i'm lost this is the guy i want searching for me.
Search and Rescue

One tragic story of Bill ewasko that went missing in the Joshua Tree National Park in June 2010, after days and weeks of repeated searches he still hasn't been found.
Searching for Bill Ewasko


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## RossJamis (Aug 27, 2013)

cbr6fs said:


> Search and Rescue
> 
> One tragic story of Bill ewasko that went missing in the Joshua Tree National Park in June 2010, after days and weeks of repeated searches he still hasn't been found.
> Searching for Bill Ewasko


The links you shared reminded me of something that happened back in my home county. It's a story of the failings of a search party.. But to be clear I am not posting it as a criticism of the SAR team involved in MR Marin's Case.

But anyways years back a real piece of work in upstate NY impregnated his step daughter. Then to hide his sin he killed her and took off. Search parties went out looking for him but never found him. There were police involved and people definitely wanted to see him found. After a while the search was called off and it was assumed that he had gotten away. I said at the time I bet hes lying out there dead. About a year later a hunter stumbled across his remains on the other side of the creek! He had killed himself and his body was not far from the house. No one involved in the search ever thought that a man trying to allude the police would cross a creek!?


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## MtbRN (Jun 8, 2006)

gatorgrizz27 said:


> It does surprise me that he wasn't able to maintain his body temp by riding, I'll start off on cool days feeling chilled and warm up almost immediately, but it's another lesson to be learned.


Not too surprising. Sure it is easy to stay warm on a climb or pedaling on the flat, but it is easy to get chilled on even a short descent. Especially in a thin layer that is damp from rain or perspiration from sweating on the climb up.

And how many of us could continue to exert enough effort to stay warm on a 50+ mile ride without refueling? If you are bonking, it is hard to even stay upright, let alone ride strong.

It's sad that something as simple as a couple of energy gels and a rain layer in a jersey pocket could have made this story turn out differently.


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## iWiLRiDe (Apr 17, 2006)

I don't mean to dig up an old thread but I'm watching the news and a snowboarder at boreal was doing some back country boarding/skiing and it's currently dumping snow, and there are a ton of search and rescue volunteers out there now. Also in Forest Hill, a runner on the Western States Trail has gone missing and it is snowing out there as well. He was told to only have light running gear. There is a HUGE effort to locate this runner. It too, is snowing heavily in that area but search and rescue is out there doing there best to get him home. So I'm curious what the differences are. Why do volunteers go out in the heavy snow to look for a runner and a snowboarder (in northern california) but nobody went out to look for a mountain biker (in southern california). Thoughts anyone?


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## Hooch (Jun 30, 2006)

Location experience and the SAR teams ability at a guess ie the LAC feels conditions arent so bad as to put his teams at risk so they will continue until the situation changed


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## derekbob (May 4, 2005)

When it rains hard in Southern California everything goes to hell. The roads turn to mud. In northern California it rains and snows all the time so things don't get as dangerous.


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## mtnrsq (Jun 21, 2013)

iWiLRiDe said:


> I don't mean to dig up an old thread but I'm watching the news and a snowboarder at boreal was doing some back country boarding/skiing and it's currently dumping snow, and there are a ton of search and rescue volunteers out there now. Also in Forest Hill, a runner on the Western States Trail has gone missing and it is snowing out there as well. He was told to only have light running gear. There is a HUGE effort to locate this runner. It too, is snowing heavily in that area but search and rescue is out there doing there best to get him home. So I'm curious what the differences are. Why do volunteers go out in the heavy snow to look for a runner and a snowboarder (in northern california) but nobody went out to look for a mountain biker (in southern california). Thoughts anyone?


Local sheriff officials who are in charge (legally responsible) for the search make decisions on search management. Risk is always a factor. The snowboarder is equipped for the conditions based on info from family. Selected southern California SAR teams are responding as part of a mutual aid request. It is very easy to armchair quarterback these efforts. Contact your local SAR team and see about volunteering. FYI- the runner was found alive.


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## mevadus (Oct 22, 2009)

So I can share a little bit of knowlege I have learned over the past few years. I am currently stationed on a remote island that is part of the aleutian chain, and I have also been to a number of military survival schools. I also work search and rescue.

Fire- fire is generally considered to be morale. You will use a lot of energy collecting wood, kindling, etc.., to have fire. It is absolutely not a necessity in a survival situation.

Shelter- your primary shelter is your clothing. Plan ahead! Where I live it can be 45*F and sunny one moment, and freezing/sleeting with 60 kts of wind the next. I personally bring enough gear to survive the night, even on short hiking trips up mountains I can see from my living room window. I do not wear all the clothing at once. If you live in a colder climate, the packable puff jackets are amazing! I also carry an emergency bivvy sack. It is about the size of an avocado compressed, and will save your life.

Food- food is a good thing to have and most of us are knowlegable of what to bring for caloric intake, however it also is not a necessity. Personally, I like to have extra gels and lots of water just in case. If you are stuck out and run out of water, dont be afraid to drink from a flowing river. It is better to have giardia than to die from dehydration. That being said, dont eat snow, it will make you hypothermic.

Cell phones- do not depend on them. Where I ride, cell service is often non-existent. Batteries die. Phones break when you fall. It is best to leave a plan with a family member or friend.


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## the other Anne (Feb 14, 2014)

They found the runner after two days. He's fine, amazingly.


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## iWiLRiDe (Apr 17, 2006)

It was amazing, Anne. The runner was able to find help near the bridge and the snowboarder found a home and called for help. It was said that the chances of either surviving was very low, yet they beat the odds.


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## MTBNate (Apr 6, 2004)

cbr6fs said:


> One tragic story of Bill ewasko that went missing in the Joshua Tree National Park in June 2010, after days and weeks of repeated searches he still hasn't been found.
> Searching for Bill Ewasko


Another of a father/daughter who when missing in NM on a two mile hike back in 2002 and weren't found until 2010.
ABQJOURNAL UPFRONT: Death in El Malpais: Mystery Lingers


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

iWiLRiDe said:


> I don't mean to dig up an old thread but I'm watching the news and a snowboarder at boreal was doing some back country boarding/skiing and it's currently dumping snow, and there are a ton of search and rescue volunteers out there now. Also in Forest Hill, a runner on the Western States Trail has gone missing and it is snowing out there as well. He was told to only have light running gear. There is a HUGE effort to locate this runner. It too, is snowing heavily in that area but search and rescue is out there doing there best to get him home. So I'm curious what the differences are. Why do volunteers go out in the heavy snow to look for a runner and a snowboarder (in northern california) but nobody went out to look for a mountain biker (in southern california). Thoughts anyone?


Well for one, the area around Boreal is relatively tame by backcountry standards and bounded by a road on all sides (highway 80 and Soda Springs), not to mention Donner Ski Ranch and Boreal make up a large portion of that area. It also depends on what kind of assets you have in place and what gear they have, how far they have to go to reach said lost/injured person and what may be required to pull them out. Going in 20 miles on foot can be a lot different than covering a mile of snow-covered terrain on skis. My point is that you really can not compare one situation to then next. Totally different variables and dynamics.


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## H0WL (Jan 17, 2007)

MTBNate said:


> Another of a father/daughter who when missing in NM on a two mile hike back in 2002 and weren't found until 2010. ABQJOURNAL UPFRONT: Death in El Malpais: Mystery Lingers


A similar situation with a guy who went for a very short walk (a quarter mile) on a broad paved trail at Mesa Verde National Park in June 2013 and simply disappeared. It was very hot and he had no water, but the trail head is at the visitor center/museum area of a hugely popular national park and the paved trail leads to a cliff dwelling down in the canyon. 
Searchers saturated the area as well as a broader area and found nothing. Oddly, two people possibly heard him call out for help, one of them a reporter from High Country News. Her account and some ruminations on her experience, death in the wilderness and Ed Abbey are here.

Having worked & lived at MVNP in the past, I guess it is possible that he ventured off the path and was killed by a mountain lion; they are common in the park and partially bury the remainder of their kill after they have eaten. He may have been disoriented from heat and lack of water and wandered off the trail. However, nothing can account for no one finding him or any remains. He was in a canyon. Every inch was scoured by searchers. He was visiting the park with his family and there is no evidence that he took a powder. What the heck?

As for the runner who was found alive? He was in amazingly good shape for having spent two nights out in bitter cold. I can't say much for the running group who left him behind (unless he was ahead of the group when he made his wrong turn).


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

mevadus said:


> Cell phones- do not depend on them. Where I ride, cell service is often non-existent. Batteries die. Phones break when you fall. It is best to leave a plan with a family member or friend.


I do not have nearly the amount of training or experience you do, but I like to think I've got common sense.

I worked at a summer camp for kids ages 9-15 before graduating college. Along with doing trail and property maintenance I also taught kids "outdoor skills." One of the primary things I taught them was how to tell people where you are going. We did several excises that involve teams of "searchers" and "lost hiker". I played the lost hiker in both cases. The first round, I showed the kids a map and which trails on the map I'd use to get to my destination. I showed them what I was wearing, how much water I had, and how long it would take me to get to my destination.

As a lost hiker, I told them that I'd be simulating someone who was injured WITHIN 50FT THE PATH I told them I'd use and could not move or speak.

The first time, with all the information I told them, they'd find me (as long as they used the map correctly) within 10-15 minutes.

In most cases the searcher teams would walk right by me sitting in jeans in a t-shirt within 50ft of the trail. I usually just sat with my back against a tree. There was one girl in particular who was better at spotting me than the others. We played this game twice a week for 8 weeks and most weeks she'd spot me at least once.

The second time, I wouldn't give them any information other than "I'll meet you at the pool."

They never found me.


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## the other Anne (Feb 14, 2014)

June Bug said:


> As for the runner who was found alive? He was in amazingly good shape for having spent two nights out in bitter cold. I can't say much for the running group who left him behind (unless he was ahead of the group when he made his wrong turn).


The newspaper article says that he was in a big group of runners, which split into a faster group and a slower group. He was with the slower group. When they stopped for a rest, he said that he'd keep on going and catch up to the faster group. He made a wrong turn before reaching the faster group.

I think his runner friends are off the hook on this one. When they all got together at the end and realized he was not among them, they raised the alarm.


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