# Burning Stored Fat and Climbing Ability / Performance : Question



## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

So, I am a big guy. About 2 years ago I was about 250/255 lbs. I got down to 210 about 1 year ago and I have held steady at that weight for a while now. 

My first race is this weekend and about 3 weeks ago I had just got back from vactioning at Cedar Point Ohio and I weighed 213 lbs... I was disgusted by this so I figured I would try to get under 205 before the race. Good news is I am 204 this morning. But the bad news is, my climbing performance/times have been crap the past 2 weeks... My diet the past 3 weeks has been pretty much this.

breakfast -- cup black beans, 2 strips turkey bacon, 2 eggs.
lunch -- steamed brocolli or steamed brussel sprouts.
dinner -- small portion elk/venison chilli, fruit 

I would have to say about 1200 cals per day.

I plan on carbing up before the race. 

Can I assume my lack of energy is due to my diet the past 3 weeks ? Damn I hope my legs come back if load up on some carbs the day before...


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

Burning off of fat is a process the body does need to learn - nowhere did you say how much water is being consumed Daily; Water should always be taken along with any changes in Diet if not just being a normal routine. 

Having your Legs return to form will involve a lot of strengthening of them by exercise, after rides or anything just as demanding is a great time to load up on proteins. That is the reward to working your muscles to the bone.

The Diet there does appear lite in overall power-food type stuff, it's all up to you really.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

Haint said:


> Burning off of fat is a process the body does need to learn - nowhere did you say how much water is being consumed Daily; Water should always be taken along with any changes in Diet if not just being a normal routine.
> 
> Having your Legs return to form will involve a lot of strengthening of them by exercise, after rides or anything just as demanding is a great time to load up on proteins. That is the reward to working your muscles to the bone.
> 
> The Diet there does appear lite in overall power-food type stuff, it's all up to you really.


It sounds like you assume I am not exercising  I ride about 60 miles a week with about 6000 feet of climbing... anyway, you did give me good advice about the proteins, thanks very much.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

*Your body STOPPED burning fat....*

You are officially now in starve mode. Your body needs a 2500-calorie+ refeeding to restore your energy levels to normal and to re-ignite your slowed metabolism.

Happens to me a lot....until I up the caloric intake again.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

MtbAZ44 said:


> It sounds like you assume I am not exercising  I ride about 60 miles a week with about 6000 feet of climbing... anyway, you did give me good advice about the proteins, thanks very much.


What I'd meant was to have you recognize your body is starting to feel a switch-over from burning food being repeatedly ingested, to any fat-reserves you already have. And those which get bolstered by slight over-eating.

Leg strength -- it's difficult to buildup at first: starting with diet is a better way to strength train. Cycling is logically the better way to get stronger because of the fun factor and the ability to deviate from routine -- Gear selection along w/ of course terrain.

If truly serious about slimming down/building core strength, and also maintaining a better diet - read about Creatine and how it is produced in a smaller scale by the Body. There are refined versions of it; using this to supplement what Fat Reserves being burned-off have as energy during very demanding exercise & sport - it's beneficial if a healthy diet is put into use.

It's not a Hormone, nor is it a steroid. It's in a lot of natural-protein like Meat's and Poultry's, again though just what's being naturally produced by the Body.

Give it a try, it seems like there's a great start to your effort here.


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## miss rides a lot (Jul 23, 2008)

Agreed your body is kind of freaking out. I'm a female that doesn't get much exercise (long commute, sedentary job) and I need more than 1200 calories a day. For a bigger guy, that's simply really not enough. I don't know your height/weight/BMR (ok, you said 204), but I would think if you're riding regularly you should be at least getting 1800-2000 calories a day if not more. 

You can eat less and try to lose weight, but don't expect any performance benefits, gains, etc. It isn't going to happen. 

If you want to weigh around 200lbs, do the BMR math and figure out what someone your height would need to eat to maintain weight calorie-wise, and shoot for that...and then add at least a post-workout meal/snack to help replace your glycogen stores after you ride/train. Your body can't repair itself or get stronger if it's in starvation and you're working it hard. That's fine if you know and expect that, but racing in that mode is going to be difficult.

I wouldn't "carb up" the day before a race. Focus on healthy carbs two days out from the race, and just eat healthy and maintain hydration the day before. Have a healthy breakfast with good carbs (whatever works for you) the morning of the race.

IMO, I'd have the fruit in the morning with your eggs and bacon, and if you have to eat the beans, do that with lunch or dinner. You need protein at lunch. Aside from maybe the turkey bacon, you aren't really getting much healthy fat(s) in your diet at all. 

Is your diet based on where you live that that is what is available?

Try to maybe mix up your protein sources?

If you've got access to avocados, olives, small amounts of raw nuts (almonds, pistachios, etc.) have a handful a day. 

For healthy carbs, try baking or roasting (I like spicy food so I do cinnamon and red pepper flakes with sea salt) yams and/or sweet potatoes. Great PWO eats. 

Good luck with the race and on keeping up with the nutrition. Sounds like you've found good success so far!


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

well, this has been a very helpful thread. Thanks everyone.

1) I certainly am finding out what it's like to be in starvation mode.
2) I ate a potato egg and cheese burrito for breakfast and dinner yesterday. And boy do I feel different. 
3) We'll know if my legs return by tomorrow. It it was my diet causing my lack of energy.
4) After the race I am going back to my old diet and I may increase protein more. But I was getting very good results and I don't mind my performance going down if I am burning fat. I just don't want my great climbing skills to be absent from race day.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

by the way, I had my body fat percentage determined here.
Bod Pod Scottsdale AZ - Body Fat Testing Phoenix, Arizona

came up 24%, so I have 50 pounds of fat carrying around. I can afford to probably loose about 1/2 of that which would put me at about 180 lbs. I would really have to get used to starvation mode to get that low... I think...


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## ibadfish (Apr 22, 2012)

You definitely need to up the calories, at that rate of ingestion you're not only burning fat but also muscle. Carbs are also needed, they're the main source of energy that fuels the body. You can lose weight eating a healthy balanced diet of carbs, protein and fat. I recommend reading "Race Weight" it's a great book with a lot of useful information geared towards endurance athletes.

Racing Weight: How to Get Lean for Peak Performance (The Racing Weight Series): Matt Fitzgerald: 9781934030998: Amazon.com: Books


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

IMHO you feel weak due to having too few calories. I would bump up the calorie count a little bit.
Less carbs (beans), more protein, more fat, add another serving of low calorie high nutrient vegetable like leafy greens.

If you are going on a low calorie diet, you have to make sure you get enough micronutrients for the calories you do get. Don't waste your calories on beans.


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## Settertude (Jun 22, 2013)

Why not beans.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

Settertude said:


> Why not beans.


Because if you eat MORE than 239 beans.....you get too farty(240).


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## craigstr (Sep 19, 2003)

You need more calories. You need to find your BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate) and then add the correct amount of calories for your daily activity, then subtract 500 or so. Being in a 500 calorie deficit will allow you to lose a pound or so a week, which is a very do-able scenario that you will not notice a huge difference in your energy levels. But to fuel racing you will need to eat carbs, there is no way around it, and carbs equal higher calories. Try and fuel up with plain old oatmeal at least two hours before you train or race. You have to fuel the fire if you want to perform. While your body will burn fat for fuel, it is not the optimal energy source.


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## Settertude (Jun 22, 2013)

I deserved that.
Thanks for the chuckle.



Zachariah said:


> Because if you eat MORE than 239 beans.....you get too farty(240).


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

craigstr said:


> You need more calories. You need to find your BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate) and then add the correct amount of calories for your daily activity, then subtract 500 or so. Being in a 500 calorie deficit will allow you to lose a pound or so a week, which is a very do-able scenario that you will not notice a huge difference in your energy levels. But to fuel racing you will need to eat carbs, there is no way around it, and carbs equal higher calories. Try and fuel up with plain old oatmeal at least two hours before you train or race. You have to fuel the fire if you want to perform. While your body will burn fat for fuel, it is not the optimal energy source.


True - stored body fat is a very poor source of sustained, high-performance energy, at all. Being a rancid type oil - fat simply lacks fast-acting Glycogen, the highest-quality muscle fuel around. It's Primordial purpose(fat storage) is to keep the body alive, performing the most rudimentary, basic functions of life; foraging, eating, sleeping, breathing, etc.

My avid cycling doctor told me body fat utilization only occurs, up to one hour of _easy cardio_. Any more intense or longer than that on an empty stomach(above 160 bpm heart rate).....and the body starts catabolizing muscle tissue, to fuel itself.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Its hard to improve performance and lose more than a pound or two a week. Play to your strengths and worry about the weight secondarily imo. Being weakened due to sub par nutition is going to affect your results far more than the extra pounds. The advise about basal metabolic rate and adjusting calories tailored to activity is right on the money.


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## Settertude (Jun 22, 2013)

I'm finding that since back on the bike after 12 years and at near 58, I can't get away with what I used to. I've always been a health food nut--ever since growing wheat grass on the window sills and grinding our own wheat and crazy stuff like that--but I'm finding that I need to have my diet more dialed into riding schedule that when I was younger.
I reckon that is a good thing. I think I have more to learn in an area that I thought I had knocked.
Just goes to show ya.


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## ibadfish (Apr 22, 2012)

beanbag said:


> Less carbs
> 
> If you are going on a low calorie diet, you have to make sure you get enough micronutrients for the calories you do get. Don't waste your calories on beans.


There is nothing wrong with taking in carbs, it's the main source of fuel our bodies burn for energy. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with eating beans for losing weight. Eating a healthy well balanced diet will give you all the macronutrients you need and help you to lose weightwithout starving yourself.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

ibadfish said:


> There is nothing wrong with taking in carbs, it's the main source of fuel our bodies burn for energy. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with eating beans for losing weight. Eating a healthy well balanced diet will give you all the macronutrients you need and help you to lose weightwithout starving yourself.


You can over-carb your diet. Doing so under the guise like your post follows (although applicable at another point in dieting/training) places the body in a sugar-lockout. Sugars and carbs have the same base-value for nutrition, only each effect digestion differently; it's the non-sugar'd Carbs which introduce healthy digestion, and sugar which masks this effect and puts a cavity in your appetite.

Until any bad-fat reserves are purged through improved eating and healthy exercise, that 'free-lunch' of a power carb meal can come with setbacks. Attaining fat-burning mode is a state of constant maintenance, but the knowing of what is being eaten is always good, all the time.


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## Settertude (Jun 22, 2013)

I'd like to hear more about That fat burning mode/regimen.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Settertude said:


> Why not beans.


Because if you are going to under-calorie yourself on purpose, then you may as well get as many micro-nutrients as possible. To some degree, I think it must be the body realizing that as long as it gets enough of these vitamins, anti-oxidents, etc, then it doesn't mind too much on lacking the macro nutrients like carbs, fat, protein, etc. See, for example, how "not horribly" (note I did not say "well") people do when they go on their veggie juice fast. This is for short term weight loss, though.

So in terms of nutrients per calorie (e.g. the Whole Foods endorsed Andi Index), leafy greens are waaaaaay better than beans.


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## Settertude (Jun 22, 2013)

Stuff to ponder. Thanks.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Settertude said:


> I'd like to hear more about That fat burning mode/regimen.


Fat-Burning Man by Abel James: Paleo Fat Loss, Paleo Success Stories, and Health

which is a subset of the Paleo Diet school


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## ibadfish (Apr 22, 2012)

Nutrition for the Athlete


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## ibadfish (Apr 22, 2012)

Haint said:


> You can over-carb your diet. Doing so under the guise like your post follows (although applicable at another point in dieting/training) places the body in a sugar-lockout. Sugars and carbs have the same base-value for nutrition, only each effect digestion differently; it's the non-sugar'd Carbs which introduce healthy digestion, and sugar which masks this effect and puts a cavity in your appetite.
> 
> Until any bad-fat reserves are purged through improved eating and healthy exercise, that 'free-lunch' of a power carb meal can come with setbacks. Attaining fat-burning mode is a state of constant maintenance, but the knowing of what is being eaten is always good, all the time.


I'm not talking about eating an abundance of carbs, I'm talking about a moderate intake of carbs. A well balanced diet of carbs,protein and fat is recommended for better endurance and weight loss in endurance athletes. Even a diet of consuming too much protein has its ill effects. The real harm comes from diets high in sugar, refined grains and processed foods. If you maintain a healthy well balanced diet of whole foods you can keep up your endurance and gain lean body mass.

I also completely agree the only way to ensure a quality diet is to keep track of what you eat. It doesn't have to be intense as counting calories, just keeping track of what you ingest will help you see if your deity is healthy or not.


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## Settertude (Jun 22, 2013)

Regarding refined carbs and sugar. Bad stuff. There is a correlation between disease states and their consumption in western civ.
In the 70's read a book called 'Sugar Blues'.
Since then, Ive eaten little of both.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

*Race results*

So here was what I ate this past few days

Thursday.
breakfast -- egg, potato, cheese burrito
lunch -- bowl of elk chili with rice
dinner -- egg potato cheese burrito

Friday 
breakfast -- 2 eggs, beans, and 2 slices of turkey bacon
lunch -- bowl of elk chili with rice
dinner -- 3/4 lbs of pasta with sauce made of bison, tomato, bell pepper

Saturday I was not hungry, I forced myself to drink 32 oz of Gatorade and 2 cliff bars.

Wow was my engine full. My energy was never before this high.

I completed the one lap race of 10 miles in 63 minutes. My pre-ride was about 90 minutes.

Race Info

It was my first race so I did the beginner 1 lap version and I came in 2nd place. I was not expecting to this well at all.


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## Settertude (Jun 22, 2013)

Gatorade--not so good.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

MtbAZ44 said:


> So here was what I ate this past few days
> 
> Thursday.
> breakfast -- egg, potato, cheese burrito
> ...


Congrats - get a first place and we'll allow you 1 'Cheat Day' a month to indulge a bit.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

Haint said:


> Congrats - get a first place and we'll allow you 1 'Cheat Day' a month to indulge a bit.


funny...


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## Ohiorick (Feb 1, 2012)

I am following this thread with great interest. I went from 240 to 175 by dropping to 1000 calories a day over a year ago. Could not find any energy to do much bike riding during the diet. I have always put in 1000 to 3000 miles a year. I have stepped up to around 1800 calories a day this year and ended up at 190. Putting in about 100 miles a week at present and getting ready for CX season. Would like to get back down to 175 or lower, but it sure is hard to fuel the body, workout and loose weight.


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## craigstr (Sep 19, 2003)

Ohiorick said:


> I am following this thread with great interest. I went from 240 to 175 by dropping to 1000 calories a day over a year ago. Could not find any energy to do much bike riding during the diet. I have always put in 1000 to 3000 miles a year. I have stepped up to around 1800 calories a day this year and ended up at 190. Putting in about 100 miles a week at present and getting ready for CX season. Would like to get back down to 175 or lower, but it sure is hard to fuel the body, workout and loose weight.


Its almost impossible to lose weight if you are properly fueling your body. I always gain about 5 lbs over the course of XC racing season, you would think it would be the other way around. How are your energy levels eating 1800 a day? I'm about 170 lbs and have to eat about 2600 calories a day to properly fuel my body for training, the day before a race I will eat over 3000 (mostly simple carbs). Eating only 1800 a day may cause your body to go into starvation mode and store everything you consume as fat, leaving you very little energy to train and race. I have a friend who runs this site about fitness, tons of info here.
John Stone Fitness - Fat Loss, Muscle Building, Body Transformation and Inspiration
He also has a site that you can use to figure out your BMR as well as log all your food etc.
JSF BodyShop™


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## 8iking VIIking (Dec 20, 2012)

It is possible to cause long lasting metabolic damage by lowering your calorie intake by too much for a long period of time. The best way to lose weight is to eat at a 10-20% caloric deficit (20% when you are way overweight, then closer to 10% once you get closer to your target weight). Most importantly, BE PATIENT! It's possible to lose weight and make performance gains at the same time, but your performance will suffer if you don't meet minimum caloric needs.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4 Beta


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Dirty $anchez said:


> Its hard to improve performance and lose more than a pound or two a week. Play to your strengths and worry about the weight secondarily imo. Being weakened due to sub par nutition is going to affect your results far more than the extra pounds. The advise about basal metabolic rate and adjusting calories tailored to activity is right on the money.


This is a great post and makes perfect sense.


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## Cayenne_Pepa (Dec 18, 2007)

You guys also need to factor in water retention too. As we sweat heavily in MTB - we often tend to compensate for that electrolyte loss by re-fueling with foods that contain lots of salt. The sodium content is what skews the scale and gives you the impression nothing is lost, through water retention - which can easily show a 3-8 pound increase. Most likely that super-bloated feeling you get after an epic ride, is the contents of your 3L hydration pack(notice you barely urinated?) and the gas buildup from your Clif Bar.

Lastly, trying to lose fat is simply NOT easy. The body tries very hard to fight off all your efforts, especially the last remaining 10 pounds. You see - fat storage is a primordial survival mechanism. The body does it under two conditions; during starve mode and when leading a sedentary lifestyle. In early fat loss, the body easily gives it up, when intense activity increases. Metabolism is the key to losing body fat. It's a furnace inside your body that literally needs to be stoked constantly....ie; forever, if you wish to die skinny. Thin people lead a lifestyle that embodies active physical exertion, combined with _enough calories_. A slow, gradual caloric deficit over YEARS is far more effective than rapid, body-transforming fat loss...which leaves you looking like a Liposuction machine just beat you up and with sagging, skin flaps looking worse than the fat itself. :nono:


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Don't know where this thread is going but here's my .02
It's not only quantity, and of coarse quality, but timing of your diet.
There's no hard and fast only general rules for how many calories per person. It's not just a matter of how big or active a person is because sleep time and how fast a persons metab is, how much muscle mass they have, and genes all play a role. 
Mr. Dirty Sanches makes a good point about going into a race and i will add that aside from maybe carbing up you shouldn't make any changes before a race.
2 ways to cut fat while gaining muscle
- eat 5 or more meals a day instead of 3. After 3 hours or so most foods, especially proteins are used up, so eating smaller more often meals keeps your body out of fasting mode and fueled for action and recovery better. Another benefit from this is that muscle mass, or the more you have, helps speed your metab even at rest, so building more and keeping it from being consumed for fuel is key.
-have a cup o joe and go. When you wake after sleeping you're in fasting mode like it or not, so if you do cardio straight away before eating you start to cut stores right away not the usual 20-30 minutes into it at other times because you first have to use up food fuel. If, when that's not doable eat asap to get out of fasting mode. The only other good time to do this quick cut cardio is after a hard work out because for the same reason your food fuel is used. At all other times avoid fasting mode by eating every 3 hours, and always eat after exercise.

Don't live or judge by the scale but instead how your clothes fit and by your energy and strength levels. Since muscle is more dense than fat you could be gaining muscle while loosing fat and the scale knows not.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

for my own purposes, this may be the most helpful thread I have been involved with so far on this forum :thumbsup:

Ill be taking all advice to heart...


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## ryantrek (Jul 30, 2013)

I skimmed, and I didn't see where anyone had stated this prior, so I'm going to bring it up. Your weight lost could have been muscle. In the weight lifting world, any trainer will tell you, when you're working muscles heavily, don't EVER train to a weight. I started weight lifting at 265 lbs. I went down to 245 REALLY fast, and then started climbing back up and up and up. I was pissed, very pissed. I started fooling with my diet, dropping out the proteins and the carbs a little bit at a time, and finally started to see a decline again.... but also noted that my weight sets were dropping off fast. Then the amount of weight I was moving started dropping off, then, there I was, back at 245 again. Stop looking for a certain weight, plan more around a body fat percentage you think is acceptable. The muscles we work in our sport/ hobby are some of the largest in the human body. You build the proper leg strength to ride strong, you're going to gain some serious muscle weight!!


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

ryantrek said:


> I skimmed, and I didn't see where anyone had stated this prior, so I'm going to bring it up. Your weight lost could have been muscle. In the weight lifting world, any trainer will tell you, when you're working muscles heavily, don't EVER train to a weight. I started weight lifting at 265 lbs. I went down to 245 REALLY fast, and then started climbing back up and up and up. I was pissed, very pissed. I started fooling with my diet, dropping out the proteins and the carbs a little bit at a time, and finally started to see a decline again.... but also noted that my weight sets were dropping off fast. Then the amount of weight I was moving started dropping off, then, there I was, back at 245 again. Stop looking for a certain weight, plan more around a body fat percentage you think is acceptable. The muscles we work in our sport/ hobby are some of the largest in the human body. You build the proper leg strength to ride strong, you're going to gain some serious muscle weight!!


fyi, i had my fat percentage checked (bod pod), and it's 24%. Which is considered unhealthy. So I certainly have room to burn fat.


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## ryantrek (Jul 30, 2013)

24%, yes, you can still stand to lose fat, but when you start to destroy your intake, your body is going to switch over from burning fat to burning muscle. Your fat stores burn more rapidly than your muscles, thus your body, once it goes into starvation mode, is going to chase after the better fuel, once it starts to run out of better fuel, it will switch over to burning your fat. This is what's going to make your climbing strength less. I would most certainly find out what the basal metabolic rate would be for your ideal weight, and that's what you eat. For a fairly active person, 210 lbs, 5'10" at around 35 years old, the BMR is nearly 3200 calories a day!! That is the number of calories you need to survive just being mildly active, on top of keeping your internal organs alive through a day of life. I personally could not be angrier at the fact that someone out there somewhere decided that 2000 calories is ideal, and that 3 meals a day is the best. I would never recommend anything less than 5 meals a day. 2000 calories is probably what you want to eat at your deficit calories. 2500 would likely be closer to what you would eat at your weight with a sedentary lifestyle. Up your calories through some protein, also, up your carbs a bit as you get closer to the actual race. 

There is a lot of science to losing fat, and not losing muscle at the same time. What we do as our sport/ hobby is an endurance sport, so it should be trained for thusly. If you're not eating enough, you're going to lose your largest asset in the fight!! 

There is a website called bodybuilding.com that will educate you in the proper way to eat to lose fat and maintain muscle at the same time.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

ryantrek said:


> 24%, yes, you can still stand to lose fat, but when you start to destroy your intake, your body is going to switch over from burning fat to burning muscle. Your fat stores burn more rapidly than your muscles, thus your body, once it goes into starvation mode, is going to chase after the better fuel, once it starts to run out of better fuel, it will switch over to burning your fat. This is what's going to make your climbing strength less. I would most certainly find out what the basal metabolic rate would be for your ideal weight, and that's what you eat. For a fairly active person, 210 lbs, 5'10" at around 35 years old, the BMR is nearly 3200 calories a day!! That is the number of calories you need to survive just being mildly active, on top of keeping your internal organs alive through a day of life. I personally could not be angrier at the fact that someone out there somewhere decided that 2000 calories is ideal, and that 3 meals a day is the best. I would never recommend anything less than 5 meals a day. 2000 calories is probably what you want to eat at your deficit calories. 2500 would likely be closer to what you would eat at your weight with a sedentary lifestyle. Up your calories through some protein, also, up your carbs a bit as you get closer to the actual race.
> 
> There is a lot of science to losing fat, and not losing muscle at the same time. What we do as our sport/ hobby is an endurance sport, so it should be trained for thusly. If you're not eating enough, you're going to lose your largest asset in the fight!!
> 
> There is a website called bodybuilding.com that will educate you in the proper way to eat to lose fat and maintain muscle at the same time.


here you go. this may answer your questions ? Here is an analysis done on me.


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## RIDESLOW (Dec 21, 2007)

i've also relied on the 5 meals a day program, but i recently read that if 3 a day work better for you,than go with it.Intermittant fasting is also something i do with with some success.


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## ryantrek (Jul 30, 2013)

Your age height and weight BMR is 1858 calories. That is saying that to exist you will require 1858 calories. This does not include any exercise, movements, work loads, mowing the yard, nothing. Your body will require 1858 calories per day to simply exist. When you cut yourself down to 1500, you are taking away the fuel that you need to make it through a day, so your body starts to shut down, and use itself for fuel. Muscles first, blubber stores second. (it's got to eat the fast food first, then the long food second. The faster of the two foods makes more room in the body to store up that fat) at the same time that it is eating away at your muscle, it is also going to start shutting down what is not vital (vital being brain heart and lung function) That being said, your leg and arm muscles aren't going to get fed, they are last on the list of required feed!! 

Start out by bumping up to eating at least your BMR point. Once you start doing that for a couple of weeks, look at how you're feeling. If you start to note an increase in strength and stamina, and a continued loss in body fat, then we have a winning combination!! (remember we talked about losing body fat not weight!!) When you go into this, a calorie is not a calorie, so start working harder on macros (protein, carbs, and finally fat) Carbs are just sugar, some burn fast, some slow. Brown things (brown rice, wheat bread, oat meal) burn slower than white things (white rice, white bread, and the all dreaded SUGAR) so only use those items in the morning, where your glycogen stores are most in need of a refuel. Protein, you're not a body builder here, so lets try to keep the protein about a half gram per pound of weight. Finally, fats are not a scary word!! Fish oils, pure animal fats (chicken, turkey, and beef are fantastic, as is milk) are required for functionality. Low fat does not mean lost weight, trust me, it's a ruse!! Just be mindful of the things you are putting in your body. Natural foods are ALWAYS better than things that have been processed in some way or another. Throw your chicken on your grill and cook it up with some salt and pepper. Natural, delicious, and not processed. Give some of these ideas a worl and see how you feel. And keep remembering, we're not trying to lose weight, we're trying to toast body fat....


*disclaimer... I am not a nutritionist, just a "bro scientist" that stayed at a holiday inn express once. I also did a LOT of research on the exact type of thing that you want to accomplish for about a year while I was testing and using it myself. It worked very well for me, and for numerous body builders I know. What you are looking for is not body builder physique, so the calories aren't going to be as high, but the basic formula is still the same. Body builders do this 3 to 10 times a year with competition. They will drop from your body fat to 5-7% in a few weeks time without losing any muscle or strength (poses are very taxing on the body believe it or not). 

Hope that rambling mess has been in any way helpful for you.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

Ryan:

Wow thanks for your response... Ill try the 1800 calories per day for now... That should not be too hard to do... and I already eat mostly "natrual" foods anyway, that should not be an issue... I am a firm believer of more natural foods when I lost 12 lbs in 3 weeks in Ecuador without even trying...


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

If you have 20 minutes to spare:


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanx for sharing Beanbag. Althou he makes some interesting points he's also wrong about many, contradicts himself, as well as bunches people together as far as what they will see as results. Also IME IF 1 day a week throws a wrench into my long term progress, ymmv.


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## ryantrek (Jul 30, 2013)

There is no exact science to this stuff. The only thing that is exact is that the human body needs fuel to survive. Without it, we fall apart. Knowing the science behind how food works, and then taking that information and working it together to make a plan that works for YOU is what needs to be done. You can take two people, both body builders, both with numerous merits to their name, and dissect their diet and exercise plans and find that they both work completely differently.


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## TitanofChaos (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm moving off a long plateau in my weight loss quest so I'm going to throw out what's working for me currently

I calculated my TDEE, assuming little exercise as I have a desk job, then I averaged my last 3 months of calorie burn data thanks to garmin into a daily number and added those numbers together to show a more accurate TDEE

then I set a food goal of the new TDEE minus 500 cal per day, as well as an exercise goal of at least my average for the last few months

I log the data on a weekly basis rather than daily, allowing myself some vital extra calories post ride and the mornings after, if I miss a goal for either exercise or calories for a day, it all comes out at the end of the week

it's the same goal but a little less strict and I feel like I have more energy than just setting a calorie goal based on an activity level that is not a true reflection of my workouts or daily routine


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

MtbAZ44 said:


> Ryan:
> 
> Wow thanks for your response... Ill try the 1800 calories per day for now... That should not be too hard to do... and I already eat mostly "natrual" foods anyway, that should not be an issue... I am a firm believer of more natural foods when I lost 12 lbs in 3 weeks in Ecuador without even trying...


I've read what you have posted as your diet and there is very little in there that is "natural". Personally, I think you eat too much junk food. Your diet looks like a lot of cheese, eggs, and meat. I wouldn't touch any of those.

If you actually ate real natural food you could eat nearly as much as you wanted and your body work more efficiently at dividing up the nutrition as it needed it. Just my two pennies.


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

theMeat said:


> Thanx for sharing Beanbag. Althou he makes some interesting points he's also wrong about many, contradicts himself, as well as bunches people together as far as what they will see as results. Also IME IF 1 day a week throws a wrench into my long term progress, ymmv.


What things did he say that were wrong?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

beanbag said:


> What things did he say that were wrong?


Don't really want to watch it again but I do recall him playing both sides to make him seem right and smart. Like he says that lean mass increases metabolic rate which is true, but depending on your condition and genes you can start to use muscle as fuel when fasting so althou fasting itself doesn't slow your metab, which again he says and is true, the result or consequences may, and if fasting for 3 days in a row, or often enough it is more certain that it will.. 
He also says that your body won't store more as a result of fasting and for some that may be true, or mostly true, but for some it simply isn't.
Then he says that eating more often is wrong because you're eating more, no, no one who uses this and finds success says eat more, just more often, because it speeds your metab and supports your lean mass.
The battle between insulin, epinephrine, glucagon, and growth hormones that constantly goes on in our bodies varies greatly between each of us, so to claim that "this is the way it happens" is a stretch.
You're not in a fed state, as compared to fasting state for several hours, it's more like a few hours for most people and most foods.
He also uses words like always, never and throws in way too many omgs and god forbids for me to believe he's not just talking to one side of the facts. Not saying his method or logic doesn't or can't work, but can say it won't for all and doesn't for me.


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## PierreR (May 17, 2012)

Wow, what a good thread. I am seeing many things come together for me. I have research a ton on the internet in the last month on these very subjects. The internet is great but full of conflicting information and dead end sales pitch leads desquised as solid information. 

I am living proof that one needs to be very careful how you approach mountain biking. Mountain biking is far and away the most strenuous intoxicating addicting thing I have ever done in my life. 

I am an expert in teaching and learning sports and body movement but found out I was stupidly deficient at my knowledge in nutrition and real high energy exercise. I thought I new a lot but there is nothing like a real wakeup call to point out the obvious assumptions and stupidity.

The Perfect Storm:
July 14 2013. As usual catastrophies are often a culmination of bad decisions that build on one another and so was my ride that Sunday. 

I had spend the last 6 weeks working on my bike and had it really dialed in. I was finally one with the bike. I was excited and wanted to try it. The only reasonably dry trail in the area is Mohican State Park. For a 58yo rider, Mohican is a handful with long steep climbs. I made the decision to go the next day. Problem one, I was excited enough that I did not get enough sleep the night before, maybe 4-5 hours. Problem number two the temps were going to reach the 90's early with high humidity. Problem three, I ate a breakfest of mostly carbs, very little protien of 850 calories. Problem number four, I take a fairly high dose of ADHD meds. Problem number five, My plan was to do only 8 miles so I did not carry any food, Problem number six I had 90 oz of water but few electrolytes. Problem number seven, I usually ride alone and did that morning. 

I got to the parking lot, changed quickly and got started. The bike was amazing and I was in the zone. Next thing I knew I was half way through at the covered bridge 11.5 miles in 55 minutes. My usual time for that run was 1 hour 25 minutes. I was stoked, I drank and bunch and stared up another long climb. By the top I started to get some cramps in the aductors and needed to walk a bit. I was cramping quite a bit by the time I arrived at a road at mile 19. I bailed on the rest of the trail and rode downhill to my truck. I cleaned up my bike and packed up. I was no longer having any cramping problems. i went to McDonalds and ate a southwest salad and small shake. I was tired early and went to bed early. 

The next morning I got up and seemed fine but by 10:00 AM I did not feel so good. I went to the bathroom and my urine was very dark yellow. I took my temperature and it was 100.5 deg F. I checked my BP and it was 98/66. I tend to be a bit dehydrated most of the time so I started to drink water plus electrolytes. I typed the symptoms into the computer and it spit out rhabdomyolysis. It did not sound very good and I made a list of symptoms and go/no go to the hospital. I should have gone to the hospital right then but figured I could do just about a much as they could so I did. I spent the next four day between 101 and 102 F body temps, BP between 98/62 to 65/40 and heart rates between 120-135 bpm and dark yellow urine. I did what I could to raise bp and even put on compression socks and took low dose aspirin. 

I seemed okay at the end of that four days from hell and had one good day. The next day my kidneys started to purge built up deposits from the previous four day. I passed gravel, small stones and gunk for 8 hours. Not fun. The next day I developed a secondary prostate infection and extreme pain during urination. That sent me to the hospital when I could no longer urinate. The sent me home with antibiotics and pain meds. I did not take the pain meds and toughed it out. 

The only positive thing to come out of it is complete elimination of trigger points and joint pain with a slight decrease in systolic bp numbers.

All it takes is one episode like the above to bring serious doubts to your casual approach to nutrition and exercise. I was under the assumption that I would burn up some fat. Wrong, I now know the exertion level and environmental conditions were far to high. 

This thread is great as I have been a bit confused as the what course of action to take. Obviously there is no quick fix and a multi-approach plan is needed if I am to mountain bike the way I want to. 

I believe some adjustments need to be made in the ADHD meds as well as better adhesion to diet and develop a training plan. 

My wife picked up a heart rate monitor and computer for me about two weeks ago. I have been out riding with it and playing with changing how I ride. According to base charts my top heart rate should be 162 but that number appears to vary considerably between individuals. My cardio zone should be 85-138 bpm. In the parking lot I am runing 112-120 bpm. The minute I start the hr drops to 100-108 bpm for a few minutes and then starts to climb. I don't feel like I am pushing to hard and my rate jumps into the 140's. I start to really flow about 150-160 and have peaked out at 180 over the last two weeks. I am 58 years old, 5' 9" and 180lb. Even at 180 bpm I can still carry out a conversation. I feel winded but not totally spent. In the 145 to 155 range I feel pretty good and my average for a typical ride ends up near the bottom of the 145-155 range. I have checked with more than one hr monitor. I have a fairly fast metabolism as I need around 2600 calories to maintain and 3300 with a one hour singletrak ride. 

My bloodwork is checked regularly every three months and with this recent bought, two extra times. Everything runs normal even when checked a week after rhabdo. My doctor seems unconcerned about the high heart rate given the bloodwork and lack of being out of breath during rides. Confusing

This thread may help me sort things out and develop a personal plan. Again, excellent thread.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Cool thread.. yeah, regular blood work for a bit can help sort your levels out so you can know where you need to be. Also, you might request to have all your thyroid levels checked (by a specialist, labs can a bit more expensive but overlooked, a lot)


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## TitanofChaos (Jun 13, 2011)

PierreR, not commenting on your fitness at all as obviously you're in better shape than most people your age but it may be beneficial for you to have a stress test done to find your actual max heart rate so you can accurately calculate your heart rate zones for any training purposes

this article mentions how to fairly accurately find your max but it's up to you how comfortable you feel stressing yourself to the limit without medical supervision

Heart Rate Monitor Training For Cyclists: The Basics - BikeRadar

the reason I mention this is that the zones felt low to me as well, according to the math and charts my MHR is 185-194 however my monitor has measured almost 200 on occasion


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

The charts can't tell you what your MHR is. Your MHR can only be determined by finding what the maximum really is and it doesn't remain static.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

You are right but for training purposes charts is a good way to go, unless you want to find out where your heart attack or puke threshold is on any given day.
Thank you Titans for posting some useful info.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

Well, one's maximum heart rate has absolutely nothing to do with a heart attack threshold, it is merely your maximum heart rate.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

alphazz said:


> Well, one's maximum heart rate has absolutely nothing to do with a heart attack threshold, it is merely your maximum heart rate.


Thanx, I was kidding about the term heart attack threshold so if there is such a term it's news to me.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

Me after the race.... Thank god for egg, potato, and cheese burritos.


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## Haint (Jan 25, 2012)

Most basic, recurring theme to keep in mind is that Muscle Fibers need to actually fracture themselves (minutia scale) then heal, and then grow. It's how they become stronger. Having excess fat reserves shifts biology from using the bodies metabolic-rate to circulate blood and oxygen to and from Muscles to ridding excess, spent food-energy.

When finally at a low BMI, and a higher skeletal-muscle percent, consistent exercise and varieties-of will open up a small pocket for food to both satisfy taste and to feed muscle. 

About the best benefit of reaching that as a goal or as a plateau within your routines is being able to recognize those days when the amount of foods taken in in fact did not do anything to enable your next workout day, riding day, or just structured-time for a good meal. 

Once again, congrats with your Race - keep going with it.


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## sloonz (Apr 15, 2012)

Food & Nutrition Myths: Bicycle Training | Bicycling Magazine
Just finished reading this interesting article. Bicycling magazine is a good nutrition and training resource.
I'm finding that since Dropping 20lbs I'm having a hard time sustaining long rides. I'm researching how to better fuel my body so it can keep up with my cardio. I'm guessing my body has less excess "fuel" (body fat) now that I'm leaner.


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## amabala (May 21, 2013)

MtbAZ44 said:


> So here was what I ate this past few days
> 
> Thursday.
> breakfast -- egg, potato, cheese burrito
> ...


Comparing this diet to the diet you posted earlier...the carbs helped. Taters, rice and pasta are great foods for cycling. Try adding some ripe bananas in your diet and your energy and recovery will increase. Good job on the race!!!


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

amabala said:


> Comparing this diet to the diet you posted earlier...the carbs helped. Taters, rice and pasta are great foods for cycling. Try adding some ripe bananas in your diet and your energy and recovery will increase. Good job on the race!!!


I should also mention I rested (did not ride) for the 3 days prior to the race...


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## ryantrek (Jul 30, 2013)

Glad to hear the your performance increased with a little bit of food balance!! Keep it up, you'll notice that you continue to drop some fat while you're at it!!


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## amabala (May 21, 2013)

MtbAZ44 said:


> I should also mention I rested (did not ride) for the 3 days prior to the race...


I am sure that helped too.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

little update... 201 lbs as of this morning... but felt a bit dizzy this morning after a ride... 

ate 2 bananas and drank some electrolytes... and feeling better now... Its interesting getting back into territory I havent been in for about 20 years...


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## JRS73 (May 26, 2012)

Although I am a clyde who is in the process of getting fit, I laugh at a lot of the stuff I read in the clyde's forum. At the end of the day there is only one way to lose weight properly. That is a combination of legitimate science and exercise. Not trendy diets or some level of starvation.

Is it hard to lose the RIGHT way? You bet it is, and lets be honest, it is discouraging at times. However, the long term body composition numbers are the most important, not weight.

Pay close attention to the previous posters who have used phrases like BMR (Basil Metabolic Rate), Daily Caloric Requirement, Activity Level/Rating, Reduced Daily Caloric Requirement. These are the guys you want to listen to. Also, you might want to invest in a nice scale. It may cost you a couple hundred dollars, but knowing your body fat %, muscle mass, and hydration are priceless when you are trying to better yourself. Having a tool like this is what lets me know I have not lost a single pound of muscle during my weight loss/fitness efforts. I don't lift weights anymore, but I know I have gained 5-7 lbs. of muscle (Fluctuates based on hydration) in the past 15 months. In those 15 months I have also lowered my body fat percentage from 33-35% to 22-24%.

FYI: 
6'2, 223-225 lbs, 22-24 body fat %, 163-166 lbs of muscle, typical hydration % is 51-52%. All my numbers are based on my Tanita body composition scale. It could be wrong, but long as certain numbers go down, and certain numbers go up, I'm good with that.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

JRS73 said:


> Although I am a clyde who is in the process of getting fit, I laugh at a lot of the stuff I read in the clyde's forum. At the end of the day there is only one way to lose weight properly. That is a combination of legitimate science and exercise. Not trendy diets or some level of starvation.
> 
> Is it hard to lose the RIGHT way? You bet it is, and lets be honest, it is discouraging at times. However, the long term body composition numbers are the most important, not weight.
> 
> ...


Already done (2nd page of this thread)... I have all the info. I am still struggling a bit on how to eat ... but Ill get it.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

weighed myself yesterday AT 199 !!!!!! I think I may have been a bit dehydrated... but hey still a great milestone !!!


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

MtbAZ44 said:


> weighed myself yesterday AT 199 !!!!!! I think I may have been a bit dehydrated... but hey still a great milestone !!!


Congrats, feels great doesn't it?


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## JRS73 (May 26, 2012)

MtbAZ44 said:


> Already done (2nd page of this thread)... I have all the info. I am still struggling a bit on how to eat ... but Ill get it.


I saw it before my first post.

Did this company go through these numbers with you? Provide any suggestions?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MtbAZ44 said:


> weighed myself yesterday AT 199 !!!!!! I think I may have been a bit dehydrated... but hey still a great milestone !!!


Good for you! It's awesome when your efforts pay off.
Anyone who's been at it for a while can tell you it's not a matter of what works but what works for you, and your progress tells of you dialing in. Progress happens in waves, ride this wave until it ebbs and then you can think about what to do to step it up. Once it's not a "diet" and "exercise" and just a way of life or simply what you do you're on your way to a healthier you. Making small changes every few months or so, that you can incorporate into a lifestyle and live with is the best way to make it permanent.


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## ryantrek (Jul 30, 2013)

Glad to see that the advice is working for you!!


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

Dirty $anchez said:


> Congrats, feels great doesn't it?


yes it does... down to 197 now... one lb at a time I guess.


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## bikenut316 (Oct 10, 2005)

I am 47 5'9" 190 approx 19% bf. I could lose some fat but my issue is also muscle weight. I have lifted weight since I was a kid and hold on to a lot of muscle. At my age, this is a good thing except when climbing. I only lift twice a week now, moderate weight and only to maintain strength. On climbs, fellow riders are spinning away while I do thousands of reps of leg press with my pedals. What style of weight lifting is recommended for the ex-muscle head cyclist?


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

bikenut316 said:


> What style of weight lifting is recommended for the ex-muscle head cyclist?


Low to no weight, hi rep, long duration exercise.

Google "fast and slow twitch muscle fibers" and "aerobic vs anaerobic"


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

bikenut316 said:


> What style of weight lifting is recommended for the ex-muscle head cyclist?


Uhh, I dunno, lift less ride more?


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## Gerth (Aug 17, 2013)

theMeat said:


> Low to no weight, hi rep, long duration exercise.
> 
> Google "fast and slow twitch muscle fibers" and "aerobic vs anaerobic"


Exactly. Low weight and high rep


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## ryantrek (Jul 30, 2013)

I know where you're coming from on that bikenut. I was starting into power lifting, and tore my body up trying to do it, so I had to give it up. Found mountain biking, and have never looked back!! 
Core work is VERY important to what we do, yet what we do is not a great core workout. You need strong core to be able to control the bike. Sit ups, planks, back raises, and oblique workouts are paramount. As far as other lifts, low weight high rep upper body strength is a great way to work. Keep your arms strong, you need them to control the bike in turns. Keep your upper back strong, you need it also to control the bike. 

Legs.... oh the dreaded legs... Squats, dips, and dead lifts are all great exercises for the legs... only here is the kicker... we are used to doing leg lifts for sets of 5-10. Drop that theory. You want lower weight, and sets of 20-12-10 or 3x 20 if you can hack it. Where we once wanted to build strength and beauty, we now must concentrate on building longevity. Trust me, you'll maintain your beautiful legs, you'll just find that you have more stamina when using them. Also if you have a gym membership, and your gym features stair machines, use them. Not the step machines, but the ones that have the belt of stairs, use the heck out of those. It will target the key muscle groups that we use when climbing. (and will help give you a hind end that women love to see in jeans) 

It has been very hard for me to switch gears on this, because I never ever though about doing much more than getting really strong so I could pick up huge weight one time.


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## bikenut316 (Oct 10, 2005)

ryantrek said:


> I know where you're coming from on that bikenut. I was starting into power lifting, and tore my body up trying to do it, so I had to give it up. Found mountain biking, and have never looked back!!
> Core work is VERY important to what we do, yet what we do is not a great core workout. You need strong core to be able to control the bike. Sit ups, planks, back raises, and oblique workouts are paramount. As far as other lifts, low weight high rep upper body strength is a great way to work. Keep your arms strong, you need them to control the bike in turns. Keep your upper back strong, you need it also to control the bike.
> 
> Legs.... oh the dreaded legs... Squats, dips, and dead lifts are all great exercises for the legs... only here is the kicker... we are used to doing leg lifts for sets of 5-10. Drop that theory. You want lower weight, and sets of 20-12-10 or 3x 20 if you can hack it. Where we once wanted to build strength and beauty, we now must concentrate on building longevity. Trust me, you'll maintain your beautiful legs, you'll just find that you have more stamina when using them. Also if you have a gym membership, and your gym features stair machines, use them. Not the step machines, but the ones that have the belt of stairs, use the heck out of those. It will target the key muscle groups that we use when climbing. (and will help give you a hind end that women love to see in jeans)
> ...


I will concertrate on the higher reps. In addition to core, I do compound movements only eg. pull ups, presses and rows, no curls or tricepes. I feel that these compound movements build overall strength. The compound leg movements you describe are also great. However, with riding road and mtb year round, I just cannot recover from legs and be able to ride. I leave the leg excersises to riding and maybe one run a week. I read that more than 15 reps is inaffective. Then again, it's the internet.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

beanbag said:


> lift less ride more


This ^ , and don't forget to do Hyperextension (exercise) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia with your core work. For someone coming from a weight lifting background, who has mostly fast twitch muscles because of it, you're better off doing less lifting and more things like basketball, swimming, and cycling to build your slow twitch fibers. 
Look into/google/research spending more training time in your aerobic threshold because it gets your muscles better at ridding the lactic acid that makes you feel fatigue, as well as gets your mind used to dealing with dealing with it and therefore better at pushing on through it. 
Most would say you can't turn fast twitch into slow twitch muscle but you can, through training, get your slow twitch to grow and become more efficient. Althou fast twitch helps with sprinting and the likes, there's a point at which the simple mass and design of fast twitch muscle, or too much, gets in the way and tires you when doing things like cycling. Sounds like that's where you're at.
Internet or not, if you talk to a bb anything more than 12 is a waste for most, but for slow twitch muscle training, 12+ reps with little to no rest between sets, and keep it there 45+ minutes with intervals is where it's at.


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## jrastories (Aug 2, 2008)

There is a lot of great information in the thread. To the OP congrats on both the race and the weight loss.

I have a few things to highlight. Somewhere above somebody had said that timing is a key to weight loss and performance. Remember that our bodies work differently during exercise and during a sedentary state. There are different pathways for glucose to enter working muscle during exercise so during these times you don't need to worry as much about eating simple sugars. Exercise effects last anywhere from 30 min to an hour after. Therefore after exercise is the best time to replenish muscle glycogen and to add protein for rebuilding stressed muscle. A proper cycle of exercise and nutrition will teach your body to store glycogen in the muscle for when you need it. The other thing about timing and fueling for a ride is if you try to do a long ride on half a tank you are only going to be working at 50% vs if you were to be properly fueled you could do the same ride at 70% and feel the same. Working at the higher intensity is going to build muscle and increase performance.

Cycling is an endurance sport, and for many people endurance exercises are not great for loosing weight because as said earlier it will tend to break down muscle for energy before it will break down fat stores. And that is two fold against loosing fat first you are not burning the fat and second muscle will burn more fat during sedentary times (rest and recovery). Therefor adding in high intensity interval training for power or speed (check out Joe Friel) is a great tool. This will cause you to use more anaerobic energy causing Excess Post-exercise Oxygen Consumption (EPOC) This will tap into the fat stores to burn off the excess waist products from anaerobic metabolism, I have herd that the effects can last for hours after I don't know about that but it will last well after exercise. The other benefit to high intensity intervals is building muscle which will burn more calories though the day.

As mentioned in a round about way earlier if you don't fuel the body it can't perform.


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## bikenut316 (Oct 10, 2005)

jrastories said:


> There is a lot of great information in the thread. To the OP congrats on both the race and the weight loss.
> 
> I have a few things to highlight. Somewhere above somebody had said that timing is a key to weight loss and performance. Remember that our bodies work differently during exercise and during a sedentary state. There are different pathways for glucose to enter working muscle during exercise so during these times you don't need to worry as much about eating simple sugars. Exercise effects last anywhere from 30 min to an hour after. Therefore after exercise is the best time to replenish muscle glycogen and to add protein for rebuilding stressed muscle. A proper cycle of exercise and nutrition will teach your body to store glycogen in the muscle for when you need it. The other thing about timing and fueling for a ride is if you try to do a long ride on half a tank you are only going to be working at 50% vs if you were to be properly fueled you could do the same ride at 70% and feel the same. Working at the higher intensity is going to build muscle and increase performance.
> 
> ...


I experience the delicate balance first hand. When I cut back on the carbs, the endurance and power always follows.


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## jrastories (Aug 2, 2008)

Try timing your nutrition a little differently small snack with carbs fats, and lots of fiber before a ride, simple sugars during a ride (don't worry about the insulin response it would take work the same durring exercise) then carbs, fat and protein after the ride. The total calories should be just below the calories expended durring the ride.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Speaking of timing and carbs, some have good results with cycling carbs. Depending on when/how you exercise either no to low carbs for a few days (1 or 2), and then a few days of carbs (3+). Or carbs am and no to lo carbs pm or vise verse. Some just can't mess with carbs without seeing a downside but either way it takes a few weeks to adjust and see, maybe tweak and find that "balance". Strive for being carbed for exercise and give your body time to adapt to the initial more of a bonking feeling. IMO the more important your fitness/strength/stamina is over your weight to your goals, the less you should mess with carbs and the more they help you.
The more complex the carb the longer lasting it is, the less spikes you should have, and the more ready you are for exercise, especially longer duration exercise. But after exercise simple carbs are fine, maybe even better since you're more depleted and they get absorbed faster also.
An amazing to me amount of people equate carbs to starchy, processed, or gluttonous foods even though fruits, nuts, veggies etc are loaded with em. Also don't get eating while exercising for anything less than 2-3 hours most days unless i went in hungry, maybe if racing looking for every edge..


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

update for those who care:

holding steady at 196 lbs... man its getting hard to lose weight under 200lbs... guess my body is fighting it... 

Im getting protein after rides, eating only whole grain/whole wheat carbs and still heavy on the fruit and veggies...

Only eating elk, venison, and little bit of bison.

another note is since my 213lbs to 196lbs I have lost around 2 to 3 inches off my waist... I mean I am fitting into 34 in waist Levis now... at 213 I couldnt fit into 36


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

I would suggest cutting back on the wheat / carbs.

Or try reducing your eating window, e.g. later breakfasts or earlier dinners and no late night snacks.

Both of these things teach your body to burn fat for energy instead of relying on a steady stream of carbs.


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## AZ (Apr 14, 2009)

Exchange some carbs for proteins. Work out a couple of hours in the morning before eating anything. Try a new physical activity for exercise.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

Dirty $anchez said:


> Exchange some carbs for proteins. Work out a couple of hours in the morning before eating anything. Try a new physical activity for exercise.


working out in the morning while semi-fasting (as you say) has helped me in the past, thanks for the reminder...

I am still seeing results that I am happy with.. just slow progress...


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Cool beans. Since you're losing waist size but not weight you must be gaining muscle while burning stores so congrads. 
Exercising while on empty like cardio after an hour long work out, or in the morn before eating is a good trick, best used for the last few stubborn pounds, or for a week or two in between cycles. Smaller more often meals is a better long term trick/strategy. 
If you feel like you're getting stronger, have more stamina, and you're clothes fit better than keep it up, it's working. If you make some more improvements, try some new methods, or just cut down on foods you can see faster progress, but go too far and your fitness gains will/can suffer. 
Some weeks you lose more than others even when things are the same, just the way it is. Look to stay the coarse for 6-8 weeks then make changes to avoid plateauing, dial into what works, what it takes, and how it effects you.


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## jrastories (Aug 2, 2008)

One of the biggest things I learned in my university nutrition class was variety is one of the best options for food. Different meats will offer you different proteins which your body needs. Same goes for vitamins and other nutrients. Try adding some variety to your diet it may keep things interesting and may give your body what it needs to both increase muscle and loose some more fat. 
That is some impressive weight loss and size loss keep it up. 

My biggest question for you is how does all this make you feel. I am a big believer that an active lifestyle can cure just about anything mental and physical. 

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

jrastories said:


> One of the biggest things I learned in my university nutrition class was variety is one of the best options for food.


Agreed, and it's how we evolved.


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## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

Nice job on moving below 200! I'm a couple of years into getting fit again, I was a pretty good c1 racer back 20 years ago, with job and kids etc I got up to about 225 a few years back. I cut the obvious junk out of my diet and lost the first 20 pounds in about 2 years. Then a little over 2 years ago I started regularly riding my bike again. I do lots of short hard hills on a fairly short mtb loop, they work as natural intervals, my heart rate is in the higher ranges most of the time. After getting down to about 190, I started racing again a little over a year ago, and I've not given much thought to losing weight, I just want to get fast. 

I understand (someone comment if I'm wrong) that by doing hard workouts and then needing to rebuild that muscle tissue I need fuel, - starving is the last thing I want to do. I have had very few 'empty stomachs' in the past year, and I try to snack pretty healthy, I also include protein bars and protein powder. I never ride on an empty stomach, for an early morning ride I cook 2 eggs in olive oil and maybe have a small piece of ham, or toast, after 2 to 2.5 hours I'm starting to get pretty hungry again. Lunch rides I'll eat a half sandwich, then finish the other half when I get back. 
I still eat a lot, but I ride my bike 4 or 5 times a week. I weighed myself the other day; 172#, I'm 6'3" and 46. I've been doing situps/pushups/pullups/backlifts after the bike workouts and I'm more muscly than I've ever been, and I'm having a good season in Cat3 cyclocross. I don't need to lose any more weight, but if I do while getting faster, that's ok, if I gain weight and get faster, that's ok too. 
Mostly ignoring the scale and just focusing on getting fast is working for me. Getting fast takes years for most people, - keep at it.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

Cool beans Jim ^. Some things for you to consider.
When it comes to pedaling do some days long and paced and other hard and fast. Road rider's that don't ride trails have no soul, mtber's that don't ride road have no legs.
Some days split up your body weight exercises from your cycling so you can push as hard as possible at whichever for that day. You can also on some days split up your body weight exercises, ie, do rows and pull-ups one day till failure for full exhaustion of a certain muscle group, which will make recovery for that muscle group better/faster/easier also. This can/should also be thought of in terms or weeks instead of days, but the point is your training should have some varying emphasis on faster/longer/technical, both on and off the bike.
Take 2 days off in a row every week or two, and take a week off anything more than light exercise for a full week every month or two.
As a climactic end and to give yourself time to recover, push real hard, or real long before time off. I don't know your condition but squats/lunges and hyperextentions are great exercises for most too. Also, in general think it's better to exercise first ride after, but either way you should mix that up some too.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

jrastories said:


> One of the biggest things I learned in my university nutrition class was variety is one of the best options for food. Different meats will offer you different proteins which your body needs. Same goes for vitamins and other nutrients. Try adding some variety to your diet it may keep things interesting and may give your body what it needs to both increase muscle and loose some more fat.
> That is some impressive weight loss and size loss keep it up.
> 
> My biggest question for you is how does all this make you feel. I am a big believer that an active lifestyle can cure just about anything mental and physical.
> ...


sorry, I guess I should pay more attention to this thread 

I feel great. I really have reduced the amount of sick time taken in the past 2 years. My cravings for sweets and other bad foods has gradually been reduced with my new lifestyle. That took a long time.

Wearing 34 waist jeans around work (considering I was wearing 40's about 2 years ago) has attracted a lot of attention. Its funny watching folks be very careful about how they compliment me because of all the ridiculous sexual harassment rules we have at my workplace... I think there is a very respectful way to tell someone they look attractive... But, I guess its always a few lewd males that ruin it for everyone...

Looks like I am hitting another wall. I am still at 196.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

MtbAZ44 said:


> Looks like I am hitting another wall. I am still at 196


Looks like you can either improve/tweak/reduce your diet, or step up the exercise. For many just taking a week off every coupla 3 months gets progress moving again.


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

> Only eating elk, venison, and little bit of bison.


if you eat red meat (game meats are the key..) Now out and about I will have my 5-guys though at times...

But there is a place here in Central Pa. I had been going to for about a decade now (they have great wild game burgers...)

Fuddruckers®, World's Greatest Hamburgers®

But when I was living in Philly I always wanted to go here (in fact I will drive here thus Spring just to try this place out..) supposed to be the Best 'Wild Game' restaurant (it's what I been hearing for years..)

Fuddruckers only has 4 wild game burgers, this place has 3 times the selection on meats (and different variations...) I can't wait to try this spot (don't know anyone who has been to it though? just heard folks talking about it for the last 10 years when I inquired about wild game meats...)

Unique Culinary Adventures: [URL]Wild Game Restaurant in Kennett Square, PA

Then there is this place between Lancaster (Amish Country) and York Pa. They are cousins of the Paul Prudhomme (Spice) guy.. and this is the best alligator/frogs/ducks I ever had (though never had it really until this place)---and no I don't work for anyone here..

Prudhomme's Lost Cajun Kitchen, a little bit of cajun in Pennsylvania, PA

(I put a posts people are hating on about the best beer, have it here in tap, Majic Hat!!)---and when you have had it in this setting (you would think it is the best beer also)---this place has entertainment and food--just like you are in New Orleans!?!?!? no kidding, this could be the best restaurant experience ever!!

Just from Philly (and the surrounding area) you have the best (freshest food anywhere I have been to.)--the Best sandwich in America (and mac and cheese) are at Reading Terminal in Philly... So living here (and being from Philly) you get spoiled with the food options....

even the iron chef (Japanese guy Morimoto) has his restaurant in Philly!!


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

247, thanks. I am pretty positive the venison and elk I eat is farm raised. I would prefer wild but that is very hard to come by. Kind of annoys me because I know a lot of hunters here in arizona that just let their game sit in the freezer for years and finally when it's freezer burnt to hell, they throw it out. I am not sure why hunters generally cannot let go of their meat even when they know they are not going to eat it.

I get my meats from Sprouts market. They are the only place I know of with a good exotic meat selection.

We have fuddruckers here in Arizona, they used to have ostrich but that came off the menu. Now they only have Buffalo


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

check your local farmers market (stuff there is usually the freshest food in any area)

In Southeast/Central Pa. they even have the oldest farmers market in America in Lancaster (but maybe the Amish Mafia runs that??)---but the food here is just so fresh compared to other areas I have lived.. And if you can find the 'hard to find' game meats in Amish Country (you should be able to find it anywhere in the Country (one would think??)

remember, Thanksgiving is all about turkey (and cheating on the diet to get your metabolism charged up)---


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

thanks 247!.

194 lbs today. finally below 195. I can now fit into 33 waist jeans and my resting pulse was recorded at a lifetime low of 56 bpm...


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## 247 (Apr 23, 2009)

Congrats!! 

enjoy the holiday (and cheat a little--it should rev. your metabolism up a bit!!)


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## DeeZee (Jan 26, 2005)

MtbAZ44 said:


> thanks 247!.
> 
> 194 lbs today. finally below 195. I can now fit into 33 waist jeans and my resting pulse was recorded at a lifetime low of 56 bpm...


Nice work on your weight loss and increased fitness! My story is similar to yours. June 2013 I jumped on a scale and couldn't believe my eyes. I weighed 235 lbs! (my height is 6'2") I was riding two days a week but still managed to get that heavy. I immediately did some research and changed my diet. I was concerned with cutting calories and the effect it would have on my cycling.

Basically I just cut out most of the crap food, ate small meals and counted my calories. The result was my energy level INCREASED and my metabolism when into overdrive. I dropped 50 lbs in 6 months and have kept it off for over a year and I am faster than ever.

The thing is I am always eating! But I eat mostly fruit, vegetables, lean meats (sparingly), eggs, Greek yogurt and so on&#8230;.. Very little bread, rice, potatoes or anything in a box. I am never hungry or starve myself (that just sucks). On the days I ride I increase my calories and eat some processed foods (Cliff bars etc..)

Hope this helps........

Good luck and keep cranking!


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## 1362 (Sep 12, 2010)

50lbs is awesome. I am working on weight loss myself, will sacrifice gains to remove the fat reserves. Then refocus with the lighter nimble me.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

Thanks everyone... just keeping a record and letting y'all know where i am at.

just weighed myself at 190lbs about 5 min ago... getting stronger.. I actually felt good at the end of this ride...

Bike Ride Profile | Getting Stronger, 5300 feet felt good  near Phoenix | Times and Records | Strava


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## mtnbikeadam (Apr 6, 2014)

MtbAZ44 said:


> by the way, I had my body fat percentage determined here.
> Bod Pod Scottsdale AZ - Body Fat Testing Phoenix, Arizona
> 
> came up 24%, so I have 50 pounds of fat carrying around. I can afford to probably loose about 1/2 of that which would put me at about 180 lbs. I would really have to get used to starvation mode to get that low... I think...


starvation mode will only hurt your goals, let me put it this way a 120lb blonde girl should be eating more than 1200cals a day. you are too worried about weight and body fat. focus on performance and nutrition, buy a wall mirror and throw away the scale. lean and mean not skinny and weak


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

Body fat scan done today...

20% body fat. I lost 11 lbs of fat and gained 4 lbs of muscle in the past year.. good news... But still a ways to go...

unfortunately, I am at 197lbs now.. summers in AZ are hard... but Ill be below 195 soon, no problem...


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## jrastories (Aug 2, 2008)

That is awesome it does go to show you to not go only by that dreaded scale number a loss of 11 pounds of fat is amazing, now it is to make what you are doing a habit so you don't have to think about it, you just enjoy healthy foods and go crazy when you can't get out for a ride.


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## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

This has a a lot of good info in it. Some of which I found out the hard way. When I started riding again I was near 300lbs and cut back calorie intake a lot and rode more. I was tired all the time and although I lost weight I wasn't riding well and didn't feel stronger. Eating a more balanced diet I feel better and ride better. I also noticed my post ride recovery is much shorter since changing my diet. It used to be long Sunday ride I was wiped after now I come home and after a a short break I'm ready to go again.


I've kinda stopped losing weight though now in the low 240lbs area. I think I need to drop some of the carb intake down a little. Thing like rice, potatoes and breads have been hard to give up much of.


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## theMeat (Jan 5, 2010)

dirtrider76 said:


> I've kinda stopped losing weight though now in the low 240lbs area. I think I need to drop some of the carb intake down a little. Thing like rice, potatoes and breads have been hard to give up much of.


Sounds like you know what you want to try next but let me throw out some ideas you may find helpful.
-replace simple carbs with more complex ones. So whole wheat instead of white, sweet potato instead of regular, etc. What's amazing is that at first you might not like it but given enough time (few weeks, few months) it usually becomes what you prefer.
-Fast for a day every month or so as sort of a reset for your diet. This can be huge for some for helping with diet plateaus, and when making improvements to diet.
-do some exercise when you wake, before you eat, so you start cutting stores right away. Not the 20-30 minutes into it as you would at other times when you're more properly fuel. More exercise or more intense exercise could/would be more effective, but even a fast paced 20 minute walk will help. Cup o Joe and go.
-Take a week off. It may set you back a few pounds but for most helps keep long term progress going better.
-adding some longer exercise sessions can cut more calories, but so can shorter more intense ones because you're burning more calories while resting/recouping. Mix it up.
-it only takes a few moments to eat what it could take hours to exercise off and it's perfectly normal to see a diet plateau every few months or so. That's why it's good to leave yourself wiggle room to make more improvements when it does. Ride each wave of progress for what it's worth. Then step it up with diet and/or output, and ride another.


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## WA-CO (Nov 23, 2013)

MtbAZ44 said:


> Body fat scan done today...
> 
> 20% body fat. I lost 11 lbs of fat and gained 4 lbs of muscle in the past year.. good news... But still a ways to go...
> 
> unfortunately, I am at 197lbs now.. summers in AZ are hard... but Ill be below 195 soon, no problem...


Nice work. Couple things to remember in the weight loss space. One, it's not linear. You'll plateau, and your weight will remain stubbornly at the same area, the BAM, and you'll see 5 lbs suddenly fly (and stay) off.

Second, as you become more and more fit, the weight will take MORE effort. The effort is exercise, tracking, and details. If it's not already happened, you may run into situations where you start to gain weight back. It will be a combo of muscle AND fat.

Couple of suggestions, too. One with your weight loss, keep a log of what you eat (what it is, how much, and total calories) and what you do, (type, duration, and intensity) in the exercise space. It will help you see patterns when you run into road blocks or can't figure out what's going on.

I've suggested a zillion times in other threads, buy a Tanita (they are the best on the market) brand body fat scale. Since you're doing tests (I'm assuming it's the tanking method) you can easily determine the delta between the two. For example, mine is about 3% off, so when I get in the tank I know what it REALLY will be vs. the body fat scale. I get on the scale every 2-3 days just to keep me honest.

Before a race (at whatever level) I have always done (performed and felt) better if I rode my 1/2 race duration, with one LT effort. At a minimum, just do an easy ride for an hour or so.


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## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

theMeat said:


> Sounds like you know what you want to try next but let me throw out some ideas you may find helpful.
> -replace simple carbs with more complex ones. So whole wheat instead of white, sweet potato instead of regular, etc. What's amazing is that at first you might not like it but given enough time (few weeks, few months) it usually becomes what you prefer.
> -Fast for a day every month or so as sort of a reset for your diet. This can be huge for some for helping with diet plateaus, and when making improvements to diet.
> -do some exercise when you wake, before you eat, so you start cutting stores right away. Not the 20-30 minutes into it as you would at other times when you're more properly fuel. More exercise or more intense exercise could/would be more effective, but even a fast paced 20 minute walk will help. Cup o Joe and go.
> ...


Thanks for the advise :thumbsup: I'd really like to get to 200lbs again but since losing the initial 50lbs progress is unbelievably slow. I'm getting stronger and can ride better but losing the fat content has been hard.

I have been trying to swap in complex carbs and leaner proteins. I ditched white rice for brown, white bread for bakery fresh wheat, beef for fish ect. I cut everything with high fructose corn syrup completely from my diet which means either organic or I just don't eat it.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Switching potatoes and rice is a overly simplistic solution.

The white russet potato has a high glycemic index -- 117 or so. This means it raises blood sugar faster than pure glucose. Red potatoes, OTOH, have a GI in the 80's. Also, when you cook a potato, then refrigeratel it and reheat it the GI lowers even more (the starch is physically changed, even though chemically it is the same). So a cooled and reheated baked red potato can have a GI in the 50's, where a freshly baked sweet potato could still be in the 80's Different varieties of regular potatoes have different properties depending on how cooked, just like sweet potatoes... gets a little complicated... I am not saying you should ignore the advice about reg potatoes versus sweet, just that it is not so-cut and-dried. Sweet potatoes are much more nutrient dense, however there is not a lot of real difference in starch content and effect on the body.

Lay off the fast food french fries. They are almost always made from white russet potatoes, then fried in oil and salted. So there is nothing healthy about them. I read a tongue in cheek analysis of the typical fast food french fry that stating they are the nutritional equivalent of pouring vegetable oil into a sugar bowl, adding salt, then stir, and eat. That comparison is a bit of hyperbole, but it gets the point across. Too bad they taste so good.

They are all starches, and starch is just a long string of aligned glucose molecules bound together like a chain. When eaten, starches start breaking apart into the individual glucose molecules immediately, while still in your mouth. The enzyme amylase is in your saliva, and amylase breaks the bonds. On a side note -- cellulose is the same. A long chain of glucose, except every other glucose molecule is 'flipped over'. This changes the bonding angle at the point of attachment, and amylase cannot break it. Breaking this bond requires another enzyme that humans do not have. Many other animals do, which is why cattle, horses, deer, etc can eat grass and digest it, where people cannot.

Brown rice still has the outer layer (why it is brown). There is more nutrition in that layer. Also a bit more oil, so it does not store as long as white rice. Not really a problem for most people, as you eat it before the oil starts going rancid. More of a problem in Asia, where a rural family of subsistence farmers will store a years supply. Brown rice may go bad at the end. White polished rice has the outer layer removed, so it stores a lot longer. Also, any heavy metals or contaminants in the soil tend to be more concentrated in the brown layer, and less in the white. So brown rice may have more contaminants, although the level will still be way below any threshold of concern.


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## RajunCajun44 (Aug 12, 2012)

thx everyone for the great insight... and all stories from others always welcome... :thumbsup:

all I can do is get stronger... it's been a long journey so far... but my lifestyle needs to remain consistent as you all say.. 

next race is September.. fire on the rim... I hope I can improve enough to place well...


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