# Hub Killer



## TrailMasonJones (Apr 24, 2011)

Who makes the strongest 12x142 hub on the market.

I shatter pawls, brake axles, make ball bearings into not balls. 

I9 pawls seem to last but not bearings
Chris king is a constent maintnance battle and a pain in the ass to work on.
Hope hub shells break in 2
shimano lasts for a while then the axle or the pawls brake
sram is just a joke
stans makes sram look good

thinking about trying DT as the rachet looks promising but what about the rest of it?


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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

DT Swiss 350 , stick with the stock 18 t ratchet.


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## SeaHag (Jul 14, 2011)

I've destroyed two DT Swiss hubs; so while they are stronger than typical pawl/ratchet hubs, they will not guarantee you will not be able to destroy it too.

After numerous failures on several brands of hubs, I gave up on pawl/ratchet hubs entirely this past winter and had a set of wheels built with Onyx hubs; which uses a sprag clutch mechanism to handle all the torque us clydesdales put out.

If sprag clutches are as foreign to you as they were to me, here is a primer: 





I guess helicopters and high end sports cars like Ferrari's use sprag clutches in their transmissions.


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## TrailMasonJones (Apr 24, 2011)

SeaHag said:


> I've destroyed two DT Swiss hubs; so while they are stronger than typical pawl/ratchet hubs, they will not guarantee you will not be able to destroy it too.
> 
> After numerous failures on several brands of hubs, I gave up on pawl/ratchet hubs entirely this past winter and had a set of wheels built with Onyx hubs; which uses a sprag clutch mechanism to handle all the torque us clydesdales put out.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply I am well versed in sprag clutches they have a high failure rate on some motorcycles where they are sometimes used in trans and other times used on the starter motor. however yes they are used on choppers and are used in cranes and conveyors. The bike hub application could be good. I wish the cost was not quite so steep.

On the DTs that failed on you what failed and how?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Hard to go wrong with the DT 350 or the Onyx.

Onyx cost much more -- about double -- and weigh a good chunk more. Seem to be bulletproof, more or less.

DT are lighter and much less expensive. They need semi-annual maintenance, which can be achieved with a rag, a dab of grease, and less then 5 minutes. No tools.

Bearing replacement on each is the same as any other hub -- doable with the right tools, but a minor PITA.


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

Learn to pedal smoother. You've got the failure rate of someone trying to trash hubs. You're doing it wrong!


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

SeaHag said:


> I've destroyed two DT Swiss hubs; so while they are stronger than typical pawl/ratchet hubs, they will not guarantee you will not be able to destroy it too.
> 
> After numerous failures on several brands of hubs, I gave up on pawl/ratchet hubs entirely this past winter and had a set of wheels built with Onyx hubs; which uses a sprag clutch mechanism to handle all the torque us clydesdales put out.
> 
> ...


Actually sprag clutches are used in many modern automatic transmissions. As for being used as the "clutch" for a manual transmission that's a different story.

I do wonder sometimes how people grenade hubs so often. Im heavier than most "clydes" and have the power in my legs to match. I'm yet to do worse than bend an axle and dig cassettes into a freehub body within 50 miles.

It's a matter of riding more smoothly. I can't afford to trash components right and left so I do what I can to avoid trashing them without compromising my fun. Good for not feeling beat up after a ride either.

I have been eyeing onyx hubs myself though just for the instant engagement. Really pricey but more and more clydes recommend them if you can afford them. Would be a savings project but may just be worth it.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## TrailMasonJones (Apr 24, 2011)

TooTallUK said:


> Learn to pedal smoother. You've got the failure rate of someone trying to trash hubs. You're doing it wrong!


Im very smooth hell even use a oval


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## TrailMasonJones (Apr 24, 2011)

RAKC Ind said:


> Actually sprag clutches are used in many modern automatic transmissions. As for being used as the "clutch" for a manual transmission that's a different story.
> 
> I do wonder sometimes how people grenade hubs so often. Im heavier than most "clydes" and have the power in my legs to match. I'm yet to do worse than bend an axle and dig cassettes into a freehub body within 50 miles.
> 
> ...


I know part of my problem is I'm 6'5" 280lbs and not afraid of climbing, rock gardens or tech. I even had my favorite shop owner riding behind me when I snapped my last axle


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Ok your my weight (I'm a couple inches shorter) and like the rough stuff. I try to take it easy on rough tech just because I couldn't afford the repair bill of snapping stuff all the time.

That's one thing is everyone is so concerned about weight that us bigger guys suffer with broken parts more often just because skinny riders are about saving every gram 

You'd have trouble snapping some "less expensive axles though. The ones on my new pls bike are almost solid aluminum rod. Very small hole through the middle compared to other through axles I've seen including the one for the CF forks on my fat bike.

Maybe there is a DH thru axle that would serve you better. Thru axles are more frame specific than anything but shouldn't be too hard to find something that would hold up better.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## SeaHag (Jul 14, 2011)

TrailMasonJones said:


> Thanks for the reply I am well versed in sprag clutches they have a high failure rate on some motorcycles where they are sometimes used in trans and other times used on the starter motor. however yes they are used on choppers and are used in cranes and conveyors. The bike hub application could be good. I wish the cost was not quite so steep.
> 
> On the DTs that failed on you what failed and how?


My failures are from an older late 90's era DT/HUGI hubs built up into a 40 spoke Sun/Rhyno rim after I destroyed several lesser wheels. Current DT offerings may have resolved any of these possibilities.

Can't say for certain which of the internals failed as I didn't do any of the rework on them. I can say I had freewheel capability going forward and reverse. The first hub failed within the first year and must have been catastrophic as DT/HUGI warranteed the hub with a newly reengineered model which lasted several years before requiring new guts rather than a full replacement. That wheel is still seeing use on my dirt jump bike now.

I also ride with my local shop employees and had them remark at what a surprisingly smooth rider I am. But I will keep mashing pedals in low gears and not give up on a climb even when it turns into a crawl. Over the years, I've learned to recognize the point where my chains would snap and such and have reduced the rate of those breakages; but I'm still really hard on my drivetrain going uphill.


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## TrailMasonJones (Apr 24, 2011)

RAKC Ind said:


> Ok your my weight (I'm a couple inches shorter) and like the rough stuff. I try to take it easy on rough tech just because I couldn't afford the repair bill of snapping stuff all the time.
> 
> That's one thing is everyone is so concerned about weight that us bigger guys suffer with broken parts more often just because skinny riders are about saving every gram
> 
> ...


When I say that I break a axle I am referring to the hub axle not the through axle. I have broken 2 hub axles on current hub (brand will remain nameless for now as they are trying to resolve the issue) this time vs sending me a replacement axle they are sending a full hub in case there is a defect in the tolerances of the hub that is leading to the failure if this axle and or hub also fails we will move to DT or possibly even a tandem hub next.

Yes I could chose to be nicer to the bike and walk up the hills or through the tech but then I mite as well just take up underwater basket weaving. I ride MTBs to ride not walk I will ride up that hill until my legs, bike or balance fail then I will do the walk of shame if I can't get started again.

I think its time that the industry needs a new component brand specializing in parts for Clydesdale and off road touring where reliability is job 1. Now who wants to fund my idea.


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## chasejj (Sep 22, 2008)

I am close to 300# and am a strong rider who climbs steep terrain here in Norcal. 
I have blown up many hubs, cracked crank arms, snapped chains, even snapped a seat tube on an older custom FS bike while climbing. 
All that said. 2 words. Chris King. Done.


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## TrailMasonJones (Apr 24, 2011)

chasejj said:


> I am close to 300# and am a strong rider who climbs steep terrain here in Norcal.
> I have blown up many hubs, cracked crank arms, snapped chains, even snapped a seat tube on an older custom FS bike while climbing.
> All that said. 2 words. Chris King. Done.


Ben there done that, constant maintenance problem. And the fun experience of ending up with a fixie when the freewheel jammed on a week long MTB bike-packing trip. sent the hub in they refunded the shop vs replacing the hub.


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

TrailMasonJones said:


> Ben there done that, constant maintenance problem. And the fun experience of ending up with a fixie when the freewheel jammed on a week long MTB bike-packing trip. sent the hub in they refunded the shop vs replacing the hub.


Were you running a stainless steel driveshell on the CK? Also do you ratchet on tech climbs? That is a hub-killer for sure. I'm 230 and Hadleys are fine, but I'm not in the same league as you as a hub killer. I've stripped drive rings out of Stans 3.30 and 3.30 HD hubs and that is about it.

I like the idea of a sprag clutch as the near instant engagement and a little bit of cushion upon engagement should reduce the peak torque the hub is subjected to.


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## chasejj (Sep 22, 2008)

TrailMasonJones said:


> Ben there done that, constant maintenance problem. And the fun experience of ending up with a fixie when the freewheel jammed on a week long MTB bike
> 
> I am now on my 5th wheelset on CK's and never an issue. I bought the tools to break them down since I have so many now , but haven't needed it yet.
> I pulled my driveshell the other day and cleaned and lubed it just for the hell of it and it was perfect after 3 years of riding 3 times a week (all dirt-mud and dry) and I am a relentless power washer.
> ...


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## chasejj (Sep 22, 2008)

TrailMasonJones said:


> I think its time that the industry needs a new component brand specializing in parts for Clydesdale and off road touring where reliability is job 1. Now who wants to fund my idea.


They have done this. It is called a Tandem Hub. Offroad terms a DH Hub. Usually come with SS driveshells and weigh slightly more. 
I almost bought a set of the Sprag clutch wheels on my last hub order. But decided since CK's were so reliable in my experience why fix something that not broken? 
Besides the killer bee sound goes away significantly with break in and some more lube on the internals (Mobil 1).


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## JACKL (Sep 18, 2011)

chasejj said:


> @Jackl- I have had Hadley's and no real drive issues, but some finicky bearing preload issues.


Yeah me too. Preload somehow increased and caused chainsuck (and a broken chain after I foolishly kept riding). Locktite on the axle cap solved it for me.


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## dirtrider76 (Sep 19, 2012)

Ever think the problem might be you? Don't get all pissy cause I said it.


I can break my drivetrain pretty much on demand. I started focusing on riding smoother through stuff instead of just using brute power to get through and I rarely break stuff now. I do replace chains every 400miles but they tend to become unreliable shortly after that point. I stopped using aluminum chain rings cause they wear out really fast also. WT stainless direct mounts work excellent and last much longer! I watched a friend who was doing the same thing. As became a better and started riding his bike instead of pedaling it less parts destruction and more smiles.

Every time I ride like a butcher something comes apart. I'm not trying to insult your riding but take a good honest look at what your doing. Mashing into ledges and rocks shock load the drivetrain. Get the bike light and instead of counting on the drivetrain to do all the work help it. I'm not saying hop up every ledge but just rolling along and unweighting a bit will take a TON of stress off the drivetrain.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Reading these threads, I'm thankful I weigh 143lbs.

I get thousands of miles out of rings, chains and cassettes. Have 30,000 miles on one DT Swiss 240. Despite producing more continuous power than most people twice my size.



Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

dirtrider76 said:


> Ever think the problem might be you? Don't get all pissy cause I said it.
> 
> I can break my drivetrain pretty much on demand. I started focusing on riding smoother through stuff instead of just using brute power to get through and I rarely break stuff now. I do replace chains every 400miles but they tend to become unreliable shortly after that point. I stopped using aluminum chain rings cause they wear out really fast also. WT stainless direct mounts work excellent and last much longer! I watched a friend who was doing the same thing. As became a better and started riding his bike instead of pedaling it less parts destruction and more smiles.
> 
> Every time I ride like a butcher something comes apart. I'm not trying to insult your riding but take a good honest look at what your doing. Mashing into ledges and rocks shock load the drivetrain. Get the bike light and instead of counting on the drivetrain to do all the work help it. I'm not saying hop up every ledge but just rolling along and unweighting a bit will take a TON of stress off the drivetrain.


The problems here are ones you can't roll, going up climbs especially when you have to ratchet. If their short ones that you can carry speed through it's one thing but trying to be smooth and ratchet tech on a climb is about impossible.

Bikes aren't truly designed around us big guys. For me standing and mashing equals up to twice the force a 150lb rider is throwing down on a pedal. Also why for me when i get to a certain point where I would be really driving my weight through the pedals I just stop and walk. Easier to walk over a short steep section than walk the miles back to the trail head.

But that works for me as I am not about getting crazy. Not my thing to get beat to hell, walk climbs that get too rough, etc. These guys however like the challenge of pushing it harder.

What works for some doesn't work for others. Have to pay to play though. Have to have a bike built to handle the abuse which means avoiding feather weight parts and replacing high stressed components with ones designed to handle the abuse.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

RAKC Ind said:


> Bikes aren't truly designed around us big guys. For me standing and mashing equals up to twice the force a 150lb rider is throwing down on a pedal. Also why for me when i get to a certain point where I would be really driving my weight through the pedals I just stop and walk. Easier to walk over a short steep section than walk the miles back to the trail head.


Kind of, and only if you end up going the same speed up a hill as that 150lb rider (assuming you weigh 300lbs).

Otherwise, if you're both putting out 400w up that hill, that 150lb rider is simply going up it twice as fast.

That said, if your cadence is super low, say 60rpm, torque would have to be very high to get that 400w figure.

The 150lb guy, if he's going at 90rpm and 400w, would be putting out 2/3rds the torque and going twice the speed.


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## chasejj (Sep 22, 2008)

dirtrider76 said:


> Ever think the problem might be you? Don't get all pissy cause I said it.
> 
> I can break my drivetrain pretty much on demand. I started focusing on riding smoother through stuff instead of just using brute power to get through and I rarely break stuff now. I do replace chains every 400miles but they tend to become unreliable shortly after that point. I stopped using aluminum chain rings cause they wear out really fast also. WT stainless direct mounts work excellent and last much longer! I watched a friend who was doing the same thing. As became a better and started riding his bike instead of pedaling it less parts destruction and more smiles.
> 
> Every time I ride like a butcher something comes apart. I'm not trying to insult your riding but take a good honest look at what your doing. Mashing into ledges and rocks shock load the drivetrain. Get the bike light and instead of counting on the drivetrain to do all the work help it. I'm not saying hop up every ledge but just rolling along and unweighting a bit will take a TON of stress off the drivetrain.


Sound advise. I can't fault anything you said. I rarely stand to drive the pedals . I don't like how I can blow through whatever anti-squat or shock setting I have due to my mass and gearing needed for steep climbs . So I sit and grind.


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## TrailMasonJones (Apr 24, 2011)

dirtrider76 said:


> Ever think the problem might be you? Don't get all pissy cause I said it.
> 
> I can break my drivetrain pretty much on demand. I started focusing on riding smoother through stuff instead of just using brute power to get through and I rarely break stuff now. I do replace chains every 400miles but they tend to become unreliable shortly after that point. I stopped using aluminum chain rings cause they wear out really fast also. WT stainless direct mounts work excellent and last much longer! I watched a friend who was doing the same thing. As became a better and started riding his bike instead of pedaling it less parts destruction and more smiles.
> 
> Every time I ride like a butcher something comes apart. I'm not trying to insult your riding but take a good honest look at what your doing. Mashing into ledges and rocks shock load the drivetrain. Get the bike light and instead of counting on the drivetrain to do all the work help it. I'm not saying hop up every ledge but just rolling along and unweighting a bit will take a TON of stress off the drivetrain.


No insult taken and i don't mean this to sound pissy. The shop owner and friend that sold me the my most recent hub destruction project thought it had to be me then he followed me payed attention he saw that I ride very smooth picking smart lines and not just crashing through. I'm no new rider been riding sense 87 and put in around 5000 miles a year these days, 10 years ago it was closer to 10,000. yes I need to loose some weight but most of my mass is not fat. My list of busted hubs is compiled over many years and bikes.


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## TrailMasonJones (Apr 24, 2011)

JACKL said:


> Were you running a stainless steel driveshell on the CK? Also do you ratchet on tech climbs? That is a hub-killer for sure. I'm 230 and Hadleys are fine, but I'm not in the same league as you as a hub killer. I've stripped drive rings out of Stans 3.30 and 3.30 HD hubs and that is about it.
> 
> I like the idea of a sprag clutch as the near instant engagement and a little bit of cushion upon engagement should reduce the peak torque the hub is subjected to.


I believe the kings I had were the SS drive shell that was over 5 years ago now. When they refunded the shop there money vs fixing or replacing the hub I was done with King.

As for ratcheting do that quite a bit especially on tech climbs and slow speed rock gardens. to aid in the ratcheting i do lots of weight shifting, unweighting, and body English getting me through stuff. I avoid mashing up hills if I can and try to spin. I do ride steel hard tail and do allot of hovering just above the seat allowing my arms and legs to work as the shocks not just plow in with the bike.

The wheelset that I'm fighting with right now has about 2500 miles on it and has stayed true and round from day 1 when I built it. No flat spots or rim dings that you would normally get if i was riding like a boob. Also I'm set up with 27.5+ right now with 3" tires so that alone helps the shock load on the hubs.

started this thread mainly to see what others have had good luck with and especially see what big guys have been able to break on the DT hubs. I have been thinking DT for a long time as the ratchet concept is very good to my engineers mind but always ended up with something else mostly due to the low engagement of the DT. we will see how it all works out in the end.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

I'm big. I'm strong. I ride hard. I ride crap conditions. I do lots of climbs. I don't break anything. I just can never understand exactly how some folks just destroy stuff constantly. I'm just happy I'm not one of them.


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## spleeft (May 2, 2017)

Iv'e heard White Industries are bomb proof.


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## TrailMasonJones (Apr 24, 2011)

spleeft said:


> Iv'e heard White Industries are bomb proof.


I must say I have never seen one of there hubs in person worth looking at.


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## Bike Whisperer (Aug 7, 2012)

White Industries make a pretty stout hub that is often overlooked. The newer XMR Boost hubs feature cro-mo axles and a ti freehub body with a three pawl, 48 tooth engagement which is pretty strong. 

Just putting that out there for an alternative to the already mentioned DT 350 hubs.


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## Bike Whisperer (Aug 7, 2012)

Nubster said:


> I'm big. I'm strong. I ride hard. I ride crap conditions. I do lots of climbs. I don't break anything. I just can never understand exactly how some folks just destroy stuff constantly. I'm just happy I'm not one of them.


I don't even break Shimano hubs and I've broken multiple aluminum frames in that same time period.


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

I weigh 30 lbs less than you and 3 inches taller. I've ridden hard and not trashed anything close to what you have. If all big guys trashed everything I could understand. Just because you've ridden a long time does not make you a smooth rider. However, you seem to want to pay for tough hubs so the industry must love you.


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## ineffable (Apr 6, 2013)

I have the same question. In 2015, I broke 5 hubs (Ibis, DT Swiss, 2 x Mavic, Shimano). Two of the hubs were rebuilt and failed again, so that makes 7 failures in one year.

This year (2017) I've broken 2 hubs (2 x Spank).

I'm 6', 160 lbs but ride a lot of gnar and ride a lot in general.


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## PhxChem (Aug 4, 2010)

TooTallUK said:


> I weigh 30 lbs less than you and 3 inches taller. I've ridden hard and not trashed anything close to what you have. If all big guys trashed everything I could understand. Just because you've ridden a long time does not make you a smooth rider. However, you seem to want to pay for tough hubs so the industry must love you.


Since when is "pedal smoother" an answer to: "What's are the toughest hubs?"


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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

I'd probably go with a DT 540 tandem hub , if you kill that one you might want to reevaluate your form.


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## TrailMasonJones (Apr 24, 2011)

johnD said:


> I'd probably go with a DT 540 tandem hub , if you kill that one you might want to reevaluate your form.


Ya that one is on my radar. If the replacement hub that the current project fails like it's originally the DT540 is leading my list


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## masonmoa (Jul 11, 2011)

I say you go back to try CK again with SS drive and I don't understand why they're a constant maintenance battle. I'm 6'5" and have ridden anywhere from 295lbs up to 335lbs (over 340 w/ gear) and never once had an issue and I don't avoid tech, rocky stuff, and here in NorCal where I live there's a ton of climbing. I have 5 sets of wheels built with CK hubs and zero issues. I take that back, I once had the bearing wear out on one rear hub. Sure, you have to buy the tool to if you want to service them yourself, or I just pay my shop $35 to service them every couple of years, which is no biggie. The guy who builds my wheels is around 265-270 and he rides I9's with no issues. 

On the other hand, I've broken a couple Shimano and DT hubs in the past, before I knew what was what. As other guys have said, I too don't get how guys break stuff so much. I haven't even broken a spoke in over 7 years.


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## Nubster (May 15, 2009)

PhxChem said:


> Since when is "pedal smoother" an answer to: "What's are the toughest hubs?"


It's the answer when something other than the durability of the hub is the reason for constantly breaking them.


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## PhxChem (Aug 4, 2010)

Nubster said:


> It's the answer when something other than the durability of the hub is the reason for constantly breaking them.


How do we know when it's "other than durability?" I don't disagree that pedaling smoother is definitely a laudible goal, but I don't want to get stuck out in the middle of nowhere because I happen to pedal "incorrectly" on a ride. Why chance that? I need something that can handle my pedaling.

And from reading this very forum two years ago, as a ~260lb rider, I found the hub that could handle what I throw at it: DT Swiss 350 (non-pawl ratchet system). Still using the same hub on a second wheel. Simple. Stopped getting stranded by my hubs.

I'm just happy there are people out there who are more helpful than "pedal smoother"...


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## Sasquatch1413 (Nov 6, 2008)

I've broken Hadley, Hope, Sun Ringle, and many Shimano hubs. Only hub that I adamantly recommend for durability are the DT 440 hubs. They don't make them anymore but you can sometimes score em on ebay. The 350 hubs are probably almost as durable though for a great price. I've never had an 18t ratchet fail. Handles lots of torque. 

I've been drooling over Onyx but the price of entry has kept me away so far. Get a DT hub and it'll last.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Sasquatch1413 said:


> Only hub that I adamantly recommend for durability are the DT 440 hubs. They don't make them anymore but you can sometimes score em on ebay. The 350 hubs are probably almost as durable though for a great price.


The guts of rear DT 240s, 350, and 440 are for all intents and purposes identical. 340 and 540 are close enough to fall under the same blanket.


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## solarplex (Apr 11, 2014)

6'2" 250lbs, was 300 but can lay down way more power now... 350 18t on my fatbike, zero issues. Blew the Bontrager freehub 3 times previous. 

Blew multi shimano, big loud pawled sun ringles. Running a 240 boost 36t on my top fuel and its been zero issues too. 

Ill never run anything else. Walking home sucks, specially in winter!


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## bacolmm (Jul 30, 2004)

Resurrecting this old thread. Just got done with a ride that was shortened by another failed rear hub. I’m looking for the strongest / most durable rear hub I can get. DT 540? Onyx? Are there heavy duty E-Bike hubs out there I should consider?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

bacolmm said:


> Resurrecting this old thread. Just got done with a ride that was shortened by another failed rear hub. I'm looking for the strongest / most durable rear hub I can get. DT 540? Onyx? Are there heavy duty E-Bike hubs out there I should consider?


What failed?


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## bacolmm (Jul 30, 2004)

mikesee said:


> What failed?


The Hub I had that lasted the longest was a Hope Pro 4. It lasted about a season and a half before it started acting up. When I pulled it apart it had a couple broken pawls that damaged the ratchet which apparently can't be replaced. I rebuilt the hub with new pawls and springs hoping it would work, but I've only ridden it a few times and it's starting not to disengage when it should. I had build up a wheel with a Bitex hub as a backup, I just took it for a ride and the rear hub isn't engaging. I haven't taken the hub apart to inspect yet, but I'd really like to find something that will last and that is completely serviceable (including the ratchet) if something goes wrong. I believe the ratchet can be replaced on a DT Swiss hub? It doesn't appear the 540 is available in 12X148 but maybe the 350 would be worth a try? I understand the Onyx is a different design with the sprag clutch which I would be interested in if it's stronger, more durable, and completely serviceable. Chris King? I9?


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

bacolmm said:


> The Hub I had that lasted the longest was a Hope Pro 4. It lasted about a season and a half before it started acting up. When I pulled it apart it had a couple broken pawls that damaged the ratchet which apparently can't be replaced. I rebuilt the hub with new pawls and springs hoping it would work, but I've only ridden it a few times and it's starting not to disengage when it should. I had build up a wheel with a Bitex hub as a backup, I just took it for a ride and the rear hub isn't engaging. I haven't taken the hub apart to inspect yet, but I'd really like to find something that will last and that is completely serviceable (including the ratchet) if something goes wrong. I believe the ratchet can be replaced on a DT Swiss hub? It doesn't appear the 540 is available in 12X148 but maybe the 350 would be worth a try? I understand the Onyx is a different design with the sprag clutch which I would be interested in if it's stronger, more durable, and completely serviceable. Chris King? I9?


32 or 36h?

The 350 Hybrid (e-bike hub) is available in both.

I have the 32h variant in stock.

Yes, the ratchets can be removed/replaced on the DT hubs. No tools required to do this.


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## masonmoa (Jul 11, 2011)

Well, I've been riding CK rear hubs for about a decade as while weighing as much as 340 and now at 280 with zero issues. Just spend $35-40 a year on the hub service. 

Also have a pair of Onyx hubs I've been running since last October and no problems so far. I do gotta say, I love how quiet they are. Something about only hearing your tires on the duff that's really nice. When I swap between bikes, the CKs buzz sometimes annoys me now.


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## bacolmm (Jul 30, 2004)

mikesee said:


> 32 or 36h?
> 
> The 350 Hybrid (e-bike hub) is available in both.
> 
> ...


32H, 6 bolt, Shimano free hub. I'm assuming the dimensions of the 350 Hybrid are the same as the 350 as far as the required spokes?


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## Sasquatch1413 (Nov 6, 2008)

I've not found a hub thats "indestructible" . Broken Hopes, DT Swiss, Onyx, and some other cheapos. I've not tried Chris King yet. So far I'd venture to say DT Swiss is the most dependable. 350 hub with an 18t ratchet is pretty quiet and about the toughest out there. Not sure you really need to go hybrid but it would be some more insurance. 

I love love love my Onyx but I have busted a hubshell, hoping their all steel April Fools hub comes to fruition


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## Weinerts (Feb 3, 2011)

Sir - you need a fixed gear. the pawls hardly every break - but you can spin the threads off the hub (did that one).


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## yomtnbiker111 (Mar 25, 2006)

Sasquatch1413 said:


> I've not found a hub thats "indestructible" . Broken Hopes, DT Swiss, Onyx, and some other cheapos. I've not tried Chris King yet. So far I'd venture to say DT Swiss is the most dependable. 350 hub with an 18t ratchet is pretty quiet and about the toughest out there. Not sure you really need to go hybrid but it would be some more insurance.
> 
> I love love love my Onyx but I have busted a hubshell, hoping their all steel April Fools hub comes to fruition


Try a King Classic version if you get a chance as it's very strong. Still a few new ones out there on store shelves.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

nm.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

What Onyx hub is best for MTB? I went to their site and there’s a tonnnnn of them!


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Brules said:


> What Onyx hub is best for MTB? I went to their site and there's a tonnnnn of them!


The one that fits your bike, rotors, rims and cassette.

Was this a trick question?

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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

Kings for the win. Haven't tried DT or Hadley, but broken everything else!


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I used to break muni hubs, direct drive puts a lot of torque down, but as a mountain biker I've broken a bunch of "pawl hubs", so my go to for least dollars is DT Swiss Start Drive and my go to for "who gives a damn about weight and cost" is an Onyx Classic.


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## schnee (Oct 15, 2005)

DT Swiss is ubiquitous here in Europe, and those have been bomb-proof for me, on trails and loaded touring. And, even if they do break every once in a while, they're cheap and fast to replace. Their only flaw is the no-nonsense boring looks, as far as I can tell, and since we're 'edge case' people in the world of cycling, beggars can't be choosers.

Kings have never broken on me, but they do require more regular maintenance than most hubs, which is cost and annoyance over and above the steep initial price.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

mikesee said:


> Correct.
> 
> *Edit:* If you mean in terms of spoke _lengths_, no -- they are different.
> 
> If you mean in terms of the spoke hole sizing in the hubs, it is for all intents and purposes the same.


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## bacolmm (Jul 30, 2004)

I ended up building a wheel up with a DT Swiss 350 Hybrid and so far that's been working well. I'd like to build up a back up wheel to have just in case and was hoping to find a less expensive alternative to the 350. Any thoughts on the DT Swiss 370 rear hub? Pros / Cons?


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## Spinster (Apr 8, 2008)

I've had some great performance from Hadley on my old DH bike, but not sure of they are still in business. Great customer service / U.S. based...
I've had a lot of bullshit from Chris King IsoDisc hubs and their 'service' - no thanks. (but great resell value!)
My current hubs are DT Swiss 240s and they have been awesome! I have several friends who are long time bike mechanics in Moab and they see just about every hub out there. When I built up my last wheels I asked around and every single one said DT Swiss, no question. Its a brilliant hub design and amazingly easy to service- compared to CK or the 100 parts inside an I9.. Not sure how they handle a 300 lb rider though.. (and also more $ than DT 350)
I used to break hubs in the 80's and 90's as parts were **** back then and I was pushing 180 cranks always in low gears.. 
Good Luck and hope you find something that keeps you rolling..


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

bacolmm said:


> I ended up building a wheel up with a DT Swiss 350 Hybrid and so far that's been working well. I'd like to build up a back up wheel to have just in case and was hoping to find a less expensive alternative to the 350. Any thoughts on the DT Swiss 370 rear hub? Pros / Cons?



Spending less than what a 350 costs is going to cost you a lot more in the long run.


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

TooTallUK said:


> Learn to pedal smoother. You've got the failure rate of someone trying to trash hubs. You're doing it wrong!


And you'd be wrong!
This discussion has been ongoing in the tandem forums for years. Tandems produce the highest torque of traditional non-e-bikes. Two riders and zero front wheel lift and serious traction put rear hubs in peril. I'd recommend the OP search for these discussions here and on BikeForums.net.
I went through two DT/Swiss hubs on my mountain tandem before switching to another option. The original Hugi hubs can take the torque, but the DT/Swiss redesign has shallower ratchet depths, so they're prone to failure under high load. (I've been using Hugi hubs on my road tandem for almost 30 years and have never had the hub skip; but road tandems don't generate the torque of mountain tandems, in my experience.) That said, it seems the DT redesign has been refined and they seem to hold up to tandem use better than initially (in the late 90's). The really big advantage is the easy field serviceability of DT/Swiss, so you do have a fall-back option if you carry a spare set of ratchets, a rag and some lube. Would prevent a long walk out!
I split one Phil Wood hub in half (literally in two between the flanges) on my second Slickrock Trail tandem attempt. I've damaged two subsequent PW hubs that have been easily remedied and PW has been great about it.
I've gone through other hubs as well. Single bike rear hubs cannot take tandem torque.
Chris King and Rohloff are two hubs that have stood the test of tandem time and abuse. Onyx is another that appears to meet the high loads as well, but I haven't seen confirmation of this.

So this rider "isn't doing it wrong," he's just a monster.


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

TandemBear said:


> So this rider "isn't doing it wrong," he's just a monster.


Anyone can learn to be a better rider. I've seen as many small guys trash hubs as big guys. Most of it is bad technique, most of that can be eliminated with a more sympathetic riding style. Then we get down to the 'monsters' who could trash fewer hubs if they rode smoother.
Comparing any rider to a tandem is folly.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

TooTallUK said:


> Anyone can learn to be a better rider. I've seen as many small guys trash hubs as big guys. Most of it is bad technique, most of that can be eliminated with a more sympathetic riding style. Then we get down to the 'monsters' who could trash fewer hubs if they rode smoother.
> Comparing any rider to a tandem is folly.



100% agreed.


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

TooTallUK said:


> Anyone can learn to be a better rider. I've seen as many small guys trash hubs as big guys. Most of it is bad technique, most of that can be eliminated with a more sympathetic riding style. Then we get down to the 'monsters' who could trash fewer hubs if they rode smoother.
> Comparing any rider to a tandem is folly.


When freehub internals fail, it has NOTHING to do with a rider's technique. Breaking chains, bending cogs, trashing wheels and breaking frames (among many other examples) are common results of poor technique. As someone who raced on and off road, coached riders, worked at the retail and industry level, I'm fully aware of what wide spectrum of riders are out there and can discern between those who know how to finesse through the gnar and those who simply smash everything. And as someone who processed a lot of warranty claims, I came to be able to identify the genuine warranties and the cases of abuse and poor technique.

But when it comes to freehub internals failing, there really isn't much to technique. If you're torquing up a steep climb and your pawls self-destruct, there really isn't much to say. Yes, there's body motion, weighting & unweighting and finesse involved in steep, technical climbs, but being able to put down power when necessary is simply a must. When the 250 lb. rider does this, he's gonna put a lot of stress on a rear hub. And this is why the tandem analogy is apt. And as I said in my post, this has been the topic of discussion in the clydesdale forums for years now. The big guys simply go through stuff. Similar to rear wheel issues overall - bigger riders tend to overtax today's bike spec rear wheel. A big guy on a 25, 28 or even 32 spoke rear wheel with narrow rim is a recipe for disaster. And when that rear wheel fails, it's often a shortcoming of a very lightweight spec'd rear wheel, rather than rider technique. The information gleamed in the tandem discussion forums was very valuable for the clydesdales out there. 

Or is your advice to simply get off and walk the steep stuff?

The weak rear wheel analogy also applies to people touring - would you tell them spoke failures are the result of "poor technique?"

Plus, the DT/Swiss rear hub failure issues in the late 90's were predominantly among big riders. Apparently, small riders don't have poor technique then?

If Robert Forstemann blew up a freehub, would you critique his technique? You're hilarious!


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

TrailMasonJones said:


> Who makes the strongest 12x142 hub on the market.
> 
> Chris king is a constent maintnance battle and a pain in the ass to work on.


Chris King makes the strongest 12x142 hub. Much easier to rebuild than an XT or XTR rear hub. Much better service than any other brand. I have several sets of Kings (road, gravel, SS, 5 sets on random mtbs) and the oldest set (circa '97-'98) is still in use on the Mrs' racing HT. 

I have killed several Shimano's (dozens of XT/XTR rear hubs), Hadleys, Hopes, Ringle, DTs, I9's, and Campy. Nothing works better than a King. My set up: steel freehub body (tandem kit) and DH axle (no threads). I rebuild the hubs every 3-4 yrs. 

For the record, most of my King hubs are second hand purchases: Ebay, Craigslist, or the LBS. I have the King tool set and have been working on my own hubs for over 2 decades. 

What specific maintenance do you believe Kings require? The only issue I am aware of is if the hub drags, then its dirty. This is caused by either using an incorrect lube or too much lube during rebuild. There are several ways to correct this which require 3min to 30min to perform.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

TandemBear said:


> When freehub internals fail, it has NOTHING to do with a rider's technique.



Bzzzzt.

A smooth rider can make a single pawl hub work for a very long time.

A hack can kill many hubs relatively quickly.


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## TandemBear (Aug 18, 2013)

bingemtbr said:


> Chris King makes the strongest 12x142 hub. Much easier to rebuild than an XT or XTR rear hub. Much better service than any other brand. I have several sets of Kings (road, gravel, SS, 5 sets on random mtbs) and the oldest set (circa '97-'98) is still in use on the Mrs' racing HT.
> 
> I have killed several Shimano's (dozens of XT/XTR rear hubs), Hadleys, Hopes, Ringle, DTs, I9's, and Campy. Nothing works better than a King. My set up: steel freehub body (tandem kit) and DH axle (no threads). I rebuild the hubs every 3-4 yrs.
> 
> ...


Agree. As I posted earlier, the King has proven to be the most reliable freehub in the tandem arena. Unfortunately, I balked at a King hub back in the early 00's because he was still using the aluminum ring drives and I feared it would not withstand tandem torque loads. Subsequent to my concerns, King switched all their hubs to stainless steel ring drive units, improving strength and durability in the process. Back then, I chose Phil Wood. Although I'm very happy with it, the King would have been my preference today, hindsight being 20/20. The spline-drive system offers even better engagement under high loads than DT/Swiss. (The older Hugi versions are excellent. Taller ramps provide more engagement and are not prone to high-load failures. But these were loud and customer complaints about freewheel noise prompted a re-design, something Willi Hugi disagreed with. I enjoyed meeting him at Interbike one year.)

For full hub service, the King hub does require the proprietary hub tool. But full service on any other brand usually requires a quality bearing puller, so I don't really quite understand the complaints. However, regular hub shell/ring drive service can be done without special tools at home and bearing preload adjustment and locking in place is a breeze with King. Plus, King's angular contact cartridge bearings offer almost unlimited user life, if properly cared for. A traditional radial cartridge bearing cannot offer this and requires periodic replacement.


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## Sasquatch1413 (Nov 6, 2008)

I just wish Onyx would sell me one of their 100% steel April Fool's hubs


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## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

Tandem Bear, I've been using King steel ring drive, freehub bodies since 2003. I do not believe this is a standard item and is considered an upgrade option. I had to upgrade my 2020 King hubs on Reserves to the steel hub body after I purchased them. I made this request at the shop when I ordered the Tallboy and wheels; regardless, I can verify its a very worthwhile upgrade. The stock aluminum King freehub body is currently repurposed as a Christmas tree ornament. 

There are a lot of maintenance hacks to Kings--especially if the issue is freewheel drag. A complete rebuild is not all that common unless you are riding regularly in muck. The King tool kit is an investment and money well spent. I cannot tell you how many cone wrenches I've destroyed in 30 years--and I am extremely happy to work on hubs which don't require cone wrenches. Most cone wrenches (especially Park's) are too thick for the Shimano hub flanges and require being ground down, to be thin enough. I'm probably dating myself...are there any hubs left out there that require cone wrenches (or a huge allen key required by older Shimano hubs) to work on their hubs?


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## masonmoa (Jul 11, 2011)

TandemBear said:


> For full hub service, the King hub does require the proprietary hub tool.


Thing is, it only costs me like $35-40 for a full service on my CK rear hub. And I do them like every other year if I remember, so not a big deal.


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## masonmoa (Jul 11, 2011)

TandemBear said:


> Chris King and Rohloff are two hubs that have stood the test of tandem time and abuse. Onyx is another that appears to meet the high loads as well, but I haven't seen confirmation of this.


I currently have 3 sets of CK wheels and 2 sets of Onyx that are just over a year old, and I can confirm that Onyx can handle a heavy load. My buddy who built all of the wheels weighs 265-270 and last we talked he's running Onyx hubs himself and hasn't had any issues either himself or from customers.


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## TooTallUK (Jul 5, 2005)

TandemBear said:


> blah blah blah


I didn't say all hub failures are down to bad technique, but the vast majority of big guy drivetrain issues could and would be prevented with better technique. 
Training is the LAST thing riders consider in improving their riding and reducing their gear trashing ratio. It's usually the most cost effective.
You're mildly amusing.


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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

I ended up selling my bike with the DT Swiss hubs and bought a new frame to build up.
Are the new Shimano XT hubs ,clyde worthy ? I'm gonna use Universal Cyles for the wheelset build, just trying to stay budget friendly if I can. Any recommendations for a budget hub ? I'm about 240 lbs. Moderate trail use. Thanks in advanced.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

At 240lbs you shouldn’t have any trouble with hubs.

mans a budget hub is not going to last. It’s definitely worth it to save up for good hubs. As a 285lb Clyde I went with i9s as I couldn’t source Onyx hubs. Onyx are about as good as you can get followed closely by i9s etc.


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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

Brules said:


> At 240lbs you shouldn’t have any trouble with hubs.
> 
> mans a budget hub is not going to last. It’s definitely worth it to save up for good hubs. As a 285lb Clyde I went with i9s as I couldn’t source Onyx hubs. Onyx are about as good as you can get followed closely by i9s etc.


Onyx are silent , aren't they ? I like that , I'm not a fan of noisy hubs, that's why I liked my DT350's so much.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

Yeah they are silent and toughhhhh.


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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

Brules said:


> Yeah they are silent and toughhhhh.


Thanks Brules. Checking out that vid now.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

My next set will be Onyx! I love my I9s but the noise is……tiresome.


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## jonshonda (Apr 21, 2011)

johnD said:


> Onyx are silent , aren't they ? I like that , I'm not a fan of noisy hubs, that's why I liked my DT350's so much.


Silent with near instant engagement.


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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

I saw that ! Looks like it's definitely worth the extra $100 over the the DT 350.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

johnD said:


> I saw that ! Looks like it's definitely worth the extra $100 over the the DT 350.


Onyx are $450; 350s are <$150…



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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

Le Duke said:


> Onyx are $450; 350s are <$150…
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Where do I find rear DT 350's for $150 ? Thx


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

johnD said:


> Where do I find rear DT 350's for $150 ? Thx





https://r2-bike.com/DT-SWISS-Rear-Hub-350-Classic-6-Hole-12x148-mm-BOOST-Thru-Axle-Freehub-SRAM-XD












Dt Swiss 350 12x148


Dt Swiss 350 12x148: DT SWISS Hinterradnabe 350 Straightpull Center Lock 12x148 mm BOOST Steckachse | Freilauf Shimano Micro Spline - DT SWISS Hinterradnabe




r2-bike.com





Looks like they have just about every possible permutation of them. I’ve ordered from R2 many times (to the US of A), and neve had any problems. 


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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

Le Duke said:


> https://r2-bike.com/DT-SWISS-Rear-Hub-350-Classic-6-Hole-12x148-mm-BOOST-Thru-Axle-Freehub-SRAM-XD
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Feedback looks good. Thanks for the link.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

Oh and if you want the ultimate hub…..Chris Kings. Most top racers use them. Freaking SILENT!!!!


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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

DT 350 will work just fine for now ,had them on my old bike ,with Stans flow ex rims. Absolutely bomb proof ,for what I do. Thank for the replies.But, I really want to try the Onyx later on down the road.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

Brules said:


> Oh and if you want the ultimate hub…..Chris Kings. Most top racers use them. Freaking SILENT!!!!



Uhm, what?

I don't know _any_ racers that use them. Not super light plus so much seal drag = kind of the opposite of what most racers are into.

And, silent? By what metric, exactly?


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Brules said:


> Oh and if you want the ultimate hub…..Chris Kings. Most top racers use them. Freaking SILENT!!!!


So silent that Chris King sold a ring tone that was a recording of their ratchet.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

mikesee said:


> Uhm, what?
> 
> I don't know _any_ racers that use them. Not super light plus so much seal drag = kind of the opposite of what most racers are into.
> 
> And, silent? By what metric, exactly?


Last racer I met with them was a guy from, go figure, Portland, OR.

Never seen a King on an XC race bike in CO in the pro/open class.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

mikesee said:


> Uhm, what?
> 
> I don't know _any_ racers that use them. Not super light plus so much seal drag = kind of the opposite of what most racers are into.
> 
> And, silent? By what metric, exactly?


The only time Kings are the best choice IMHO is extremely wet climates where other hubs are failing. Otherwise not worth the cost, special tools, expensive replacement parts, finicky adjustments.


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## Brules (Jul 10, 2021)

Agreed. I’d go Onyx or I9. Might build a set of Onyx on my new DH bike I bought.


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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

One more question. Have any of y'all had trouble with Shimano Micro Spline durability. I read it was kinda weak compared to XD and the old style HG. Thanks in advanced.


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