# Fixies are irresponsible/rude!



## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

I posted this as a response to another thread. I thought it was worthy of it's own discussion. To save myself time I just copied and pasted this since it sums my thoughts up pretty well.

We just finished Mardi Gras and if there's one thing I learned it's that I don't trust other people very much when I'm on my bike. I brought a bike downtown one day. Children, especially, are retarded around bikes. People run and step backwards all of a sudden and are generally complete unaware of their surroundings. If you don't want the general public to hate bikers as a whole then you are the only one responsible for being in total control. I'm tempted to go as far as to say that you need front and rear brakes when opperating in close proximity to people and cars. I think it's irresponsible and rude if you don't consider other people and other types of bikes in the equation. To the general public we are all just bikers. There are not different categories with different considerations.

Not to mention the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a single rear disc brake. 
About this crap about breaking cables. That's just stupid. In 12 years of hard off-road riding I've broken one cable and it was a derailleur cable that got ripped by a branch. Cables DO NOT just break in normal use.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

You have never ridden a fixie I see... You have never ridden one well anyway.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

Ridden two actually. I don't care to ride one again.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Ridden two actually. I don't care to ride one again.


I retract my first statement, and stand firmly with my second.

This topic is old hat.


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## Bike Nazi (Apr 3, 2004)

*The fixie police are going to fix you*



DeepSouthBuilder said:


> I posted this as a response to another thread. I thought it was worthy of it's own discussion. To save myself time I just copied and pasted this since it sums my thoughts up pretty well.
> 
> We just finished Mardi Gras and if there's one thing I learned it's that I don't trust other people very much when I'm on my bike. I brought a bike downtown one day. Children, especially, are retarded around bikes. People run and step backwards all of a sudden and are generally complete unaware of their surroundings. If you don't want the general public to hate bikers as a whole then you are the only one responsible for being in total control. I'm tempted to go as far as to say that you need front and rear brakes when opperating in close proximity to people and cars. I think it's irresponsible and rude if you don't consider other people and other types of bikes in the equation. To the general public we are all just bikers. There are not different categories with different considerations.
> 
> ...


if it ain't a fixie or a 29er it ain't shet.:nono:


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

My main point still stands. If you can't come to a complete stop every time without much effort then you shouldn't be around people or cars. Like I said the general public does not distinguish between different types of bikes. I am a freerider primarily (go ahead I can take it) and fairly active in the community. The key to successful advocacy is counting as many groups into your efforts as possible. To the general public there is no difference between mountainbikers and whatever they see on commercials and the news is what they will think of all of us. Fortunately for me FR is getting way more publicity than XC these days and for XC groups to be successful they need to consider us. So unless you can stop on a dime every time I don't want to be in the same category as you.

I knew this thread would draw some outrage when I started it. I also know that it probably won't change anyone's mind who already rides a fixie. With any luck though it will keep someone considering them from taking the plunge.

You can think whatever you want about my riding ability. I could care less. You haven't seen me ride.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

I would love nothing more than for someone to come up with a decent rebuttal to either of my main points.

BTW I've broken more chains than I can count.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2007)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> I would love nothing more than for someone to come up with a decent rebuttal to either of my main points.
> 
> BTW I've broken more chains than I can count.


that's because nobody anywhere in these forums can reasonably justify riding a fixie in city traffic.

it's a fad whose time will pass.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

mikeb said:


> that's because nobody anywhere in these forums can reasonably justify riding a fixie in city traffic.
> 
> it's a fad whose time will pass.


I would love for this to turn into a nice debate (really) but I suspect you're right. If I don't get any good responses I'll bump this thread myself every once in a while to keep it visible.


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## PaddyH (Aug 23, 2004)

*Sorry, what's your point?*



DeepSouthBuilder said:


> We just finished Mardi Gras and if there's one thing I learned it's that I don't trust other people very much when I'm on my bike. I brought a bike downtown one day. Children, especially, are retarded around bikes. People run and step backwards all of a sudden and are generally complete unaware of their surroundings. If you don't want the general public to hate bikers as a whole then you are the only one responsible for being in total control. I'm tempted to go as far as to say that you need front and rear brakes when opperating in close proximity to people and cars. I think it's irresponsible and rude if you don't consider other people and other types of bikes in the equation. To the general public we are all just bikers. There are not different categories with different considerations.
> 
> Not to mention the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a single rear disc brake.
> About this crap about breaking cables. That's just stupid. In 12 years of hard off-road riding I've broken one cable and it was a derailleur cable that got ripped by a branch. Cables DO NOT just break in normal use.


Ok...you seem to want to rant/argue about something and have picked fixies as your target, and seem to be pro-disc brakes, but other than that what's your point??

If you don't want to ride a fixie, sorry, but I didn't see you mention that someone had put a gun to your head to do so. As far as riding in a huge crowd of people walking, no kidding people are not aware of you! Have you ever walked around a mall at Christmas???? Nevermind trying to ride around one at a huge street party!!!

People ride fixies for different of reasons....people ride mtn, rd, and cx bikes again for a different of reasons...*so what?* Good for you for trying a fixie out, twice...sorry to hear you didn't like it, I tried asparagus twice and didn't like it either time, doesn't mean people who eat it are rude or irresponsible...if yer looking to let off some steam, maybe go out for a bike ride.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

PaddyH said:


> Ok...you seem to want to rant/argue about something and have picked fixies as your target, and seem to be pro-disc brakes, but other than that what's your point??
> 
> If you don't want to ride a fixie, sorry, but I didn't see you mention that someone had put a gun to your head to do so. As far as riding in a huge crowd of people walking, no kidding people are not aware of you! Have you ever walked around a mall at Christmas???? Nevermind trying to ride around one at a huge street party!!!
> 
> People ride fixies for different of reasons....people ride mtn, rd, and cx bikes again for a different of reasons...*so what?* Good for you for trying a fixie out, twice...sorry to hear you didn't like it, I tried asparagus twice and didn't like it either time, doesn't mean people who eat it are rude or irresponsible...if yer looking to let off some steam, maybe go out for a bike ride.


Funny
I'm kinda wondering what your point is because mine's clear. Fixies should not be allowed on the street because they are bad for the image of all bikers and the safety of everyone else. That sums it up pretty well.

I feel like I have enough info to think they are irresponsible.

BTW at Mardi Gras most of the parties are confined to the sidewalks, yards, parking lots, parks, and bars. The street is 90% clear. The police are pretty good about watching that. That doesn't keep people from acting like tards when a bike gets within 20ft of them. Like a busy city street. Would you have prefered that I use a college campus analogy? I also have lots of experience on bikes on busy city streets at other times. I drew the same conclusion. I just thought that was a relevant example since it was recent. (this past weekend-yesterday)

FYI Mobile is where Mardi Gras was invented NOT New Orleans.

I also didn't see any rebuttals to either of my arguments. You seem to be the one ranting.


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## MellowCat (Jan 12, 2004)

What does this have to do with riding Singlespeeds/fixies offroad? THIS IS A MOUNTAIN BIKE message board, not a roadie board.

Move this rant to www.roadbikereview.com please.


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## dansjustchillin (Apr 8, 2004)

Don't be hating. Hater.:madmax:


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

I haven't ranted once. Look the word up. My guess is everyone that is getting defensive is doing so because you can't come up with a good argument to what I've said. There is another pro-fixie thread a few down that no one dissented with.

I didn't once say that I hated fixies. I just said they shouldn't be on the street. I love all bikes.
There is an Urban/Park/DJ forum. What is a mountainbike these days anyway?


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> I would love nothing more than for someone to come up with a decent rebuttal to either of my main points.


LEARN how to ride fixie jack-a-smacka!

If YOU can't handle fixie, then YOU should steer clear of fixies.

I, on the otherhand, can ride ALL bikes well. I KNOW the capability of competancy on a fixie. Not everyone has that kind of skill sack ya hear?

And remember. Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean a little old lady can't do it.

Skill up hunchbone.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2007)

fixies have no brakes

the laws in the city of san francisco (where i live) require bicycles to have brakes.

ride what you want but keep local laws in mind and don't start whining when you blow a stop sign on your brakeless hipster bike and the cops stop you.

that said, many of the riders (i.e., clueless hipsters) i've seen on fixies in the city over the past few years ride through traffic like idiots.

this is simply an observation from a man who has been commuting though traffic in san francisco since 1990.


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## smaxor (Dec 18, 2004)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> I would love for this to turn into a nice debate (really) but I suspect you're right. If I don't get any good responses I'll bump this thread myself every once in a while to keep it visible.


No debate here, I took a test ride on a fixed pista today and I thought it was outstanding. There is definately something special about it and I look forward to adding one to my collection someday.

who pooped in your cereal today......:cryin:


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

29Colossus said:


> LEARN how to ride fixie jack-a-smacka!
> 
> If YOU can't handle fixie, then YOU should steer clear of fixies.
> 
> ...


Once again, You've never seen me ride.
Chains break pretty often. Knowing how to ride one means nothing in terms of safety.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

mudpie said:


> No debate here, I took a test ride on a fixed pista today and I thought it was outstanding. There is definately something special about it and I look forward to adding one to my collection someday.
> 
> who pooped in your cereal today......:cryin:


I'm glad you enjoyed it. Now use it somewhere safe. You wouldn't drive a drag racer on a city street if I had to guess.


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## redxj (Oct 17, 2004)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> I would love nothing more than for someone to come up with a decent rebuttal to either of my main points.
> 
> BTW I've broken more chains than I can count.


I didn't know you made a point. (Kidding well sort of) Personally, I don't care about other people or cars EXCEPT when they threaten me bodily harm. If I didn't feel confident enough in my own abilities to ride brakeless I wouldn't. I ride multiple fixed gears: two with front brakes and three without. The three without are all track bikes, and only one of those sees much street use. Of the two that have brakes the brakes don't get used often. Most of my speed control while riding is using my legs. The only time I really use the front brake is to control speed on a downhill. I started out riding with a front brake because I didn't feel confident in my (lack of) skills. Eventually, after a year of fixed riding I went without and like it. Plus, I really want to fit in.

No the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a brakeless fixed gear. Why do you think so many bike messengers use them? It is a bike in its most basic form. Adding shifters, brakes, derail., etc. means more complication and more things that can go wrong.

My .02


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Once again, You've never seen me ride.
> Chains break pretty often. Knowing how to ride one means nothing in terms of safety.


If you can't brake the rear wheel on a fixie in any circumstance, then you don't know how to ride fixie. I don't need to see you flail on a fixie to know that.

It is that simple.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

I'm starting to wonder if any of you have been to college. You don't seem to know how to respond to my well-assembled argument without attacking me personally. Brilliant strategy. I've yet to hear a single rebuttal to any of my points.


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## MellowCat (Jan 12, 2004)

How can you ever be in "complete" control on a bike? Answer that one for me. I bet there's more colisions between average riders on geared/brake equiped bikes than fixies anyday. While fixies on the street are the cool kid thing right now, there numbers are still miniscule at best compared to normal geared bikes. 

Your making a mountain out of a mole hill.

This is my opinion.

Now, can we get back to singlespeeds and offroad?


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> I'm starting to wonder if any of you have been to college. You don't seem to know how to respond to my well-assembled argument without attacking me personally. Brilliant strategy. I've yet to hear a single rebuttal to any of my points.


It is just embarrassing is all. Like someone who isn't a doctor making assertions about doctoring in a room full of doctors.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Ok, I’ll bite. DSB you are mindlessly stereotyping any cyclist without a freewheel. I’ll agree that the trendy-3/4 pants-wanna be messenger-handbrakeless-track bike thing is stupid. So are freeriders that build illegal trails, get the most out of their eleventeen piston 10in rotors by going 50mph and then skidding, catching “knar air,” etc on multi use trails. Since there are a few of those idiots tearing around, should I assume that every dude I see on a dual suspension bike with more than 5in of travel and disc brakes is a erosion causing prick and go on a tirade on an internet forum? No, that’s retarded. I just about completely disagree with your statement: “the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a single rear disc brake.” Firstly, disc brakes are not trouble free and not low maintenance, certainly not more so than a V-brake or a fixed gear cog. Rotors get bent, pads get contaminated, rotor bolts loosen, need to be bled, need long full length cables, etc. As an avid Fixie rider, I can apply the "rear brake" just as quickly (and with waaaaaay better modulation…no really) and with just as much braking force with the pedals as I can with a disc brake. The limiting factor on the rear wheel is traction, physics says so…and physics is smarter than you.(I think I’ve said that before).


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## MellowCat (Jan 12, 2004)

Maybe we hated the whole "debate team" vibe....

I've been in sales for 20 years, I would hardly call your argument well assembled. Using "retarded" to describe children is reckless at best. If you wanted to say you hate fixies on the road you got your point across. I believe in your First Amendment rights, but....this is not a roadie board. Take your argument to a board that really loves fixies on the road. Your point will be made to several times the population versus arguing it here. Surely that makes sense to you?

MC


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## FlatFender (Aug 28, 2006)

> Fixies are irresponsible/rude!


and black People steal
jewish people are cheap
white people cant jump
fat people are lazy
skinny people are anorexic
people who studder are stupid
republicans want to cut down all the forests
democrats are tree hugging hippies
people who drive SUVs hate the environment
roadies are snobby

hmm.....Pot...meet kettle....


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## PaddyH (Aug 23, 2004)

*For those of us who have been to college but didn't get anything out of it....*



DeepSouthBuilder said:


> I'm starting to wonder if any of you have been to college. You don't seem to know how to respond to my well-assembled argument without attacking me personally. Brilliant strategy. I've yet to hear a single rebuttal to any of my points.


...Sorry again, but where is this "well assembled arguement" with any *clear* points?"


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

redxj said:


> I didn't know you made a point. (Kidding well sort of) Personally, I don't care about other people or cars EXCEPT when they threaten me bodily harm. If I didn't feel confident enough in my own abilities to ride brakeless I wouldn't. I ride multiple fixed gears: two with front brakes and three without. The three without are all track bikes, and only one of those sees much street use. Of the two that have brakes the brakes don't get used often. Most of my speed control while riding is using my legs. The only time I really use the front brake is to control speed on a downhill. I started out riding with a front brake because I didn't feel confident in my (lack of) skills. Eventually, after a year of fixed riding I went without and like it. Plus, I really want to fit in.
> 
> No the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a brakeless fixed gear. Why do you think so many bike messengers use them? It is a bike in its most basic form. Adding shifters, brakes, derail., etc. means more complication and more things that can go wrong.
> 
> My .02


Finally
A good argument (laced with complacent irresponsibility)
Good point about bike messengers. I'd like to see statistics on how many use brakes but I suspect they don't exist. Most of the messengers I've seen/talked to use f and r brakes. I suspect this is very-much dependant on local trends. The most low-maintenance parts I've ever owned have been quality hydraulic discs. Set up correctly you often don't have to touch them for 2+ years. Your personal experience is also a good point. Have you ever broken a chain on your fixies? I'll even give you some ammunition for your argument. Most of my chain-breaks have been due to impact. They still break pretty often though.
To say that you don't care about other people when your on your bike is the definition of irresponsible. That is why the public has yet to embrace bikes in the US. They are afraid of us. It's up to us to dispel this image if we don't want to be shunned forever.


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## Upchuck (Jan 30, 2004)

Yo Troll, bored this evening?


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## Ignatz (Jun 18, 2004)

mikeb said:


> fixies have no brakesQUOTE]
> 
> There's no rule that says a fixed gear bike can't have brakes. Mine has a front brake. When I use it I can stop on a dime. If I just use back pressure it takes maybe 15 cents to stop.
> 
> ...


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

MellowCat said:


> How can you ever be in "complete" control on a bike? Answer that one for me. I bet there's more colisions between average riders on geared/brake equiped bikes than fixies anyday.


I feel totally in control any time I have two brakes and a handlebar in front of me. 
There are also WAY more F-Hub brake-equipped bikes out there. I would also be willing to bet that the average fixie rider is significantly more skilled.


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## FlatFender (Aug 28, 2006)

oh, BTW, I HAVE snapped a brake cable before.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

FlatFender said:


> and black People steal
> jewish people are cheap
> white people cant jump
> fat people are lazy
> ...


Please keep your racism out of my threads and mtbr.

If you're trying to suggest that FR is irresponsible/rude you couldn't be more wrong. We have done more in the last 5 years to make innovative solutions to trailwear issues than XC guys did for the 30 before. Not to mention we have multi-million dollar facilities specifically for our discipline. I also suggest that you read my user name.


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## FlatFender (Aug 28, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Please keep your racism out of my threads and mtbr.


seriously wondering if you have been to college now. Read it again, all the way through this time. 
Just because someones bike does not have a freewheel does not make them irresponsible.
Your arguement needs work.

My point was that you are stereotyping ALL fixie riders into one category, and obviously we all know that stereotypes are wrong more often than not.


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## MellowCat (Jan 12, 2004)

You just admited that "fixie riders are significantly more skilled"? How does this support your comment/argument?

Like you said "I feel" totally in control, but your not, accidents happen to everyone at somepoint. Anyone who says accidents don't happen to them is an accident waiting to happen.

By the way, the best rider I have ever seen on trail was a rigid fixie rider, bar none.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Finally
> ....The most low-maintenance parts I've ever owned have been quality hydraulic discs. Set up correctly you often don't have to touch them for 2+ years. Your personal experience is also a good point. Have you ever broken a chain on your fixies? I'll even give you some ammunition for your argument. Most of my chain-breaks have been due to impact. They still break pretty often though.....


 Two years, really:skep:? If you left a hyd disc brake absolutely untouched/unridden for two years, I'd guarantee that you'd be due for a bleeding-maybe a fluid change. Do you ride your bikes? Never have to replace pads/rotors, re-bleed, etc. And yes chains brake, I use a front brake on my fixie and replace my chain fairly often. With a 34-16 on a 26in wheel I top out at a breakneck 15mph. Say I removed my front brake and went out riding and my chain blew up&#8230;I'd simply bail out and start running. Hardly graceful, but not exactly killing a school bus full of children.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

Ignatz said:


> As far as, "Fixies should not be allowed on the street because they are bad for the image of all bikers and the safety of everyone else." (DeepSouthBuilder); so by this reasoning we should probably be working on banning mountain bikers who skid because they present a bad image (trail damage, etc.). I'm sure that there are non-riders out there who see "free riders" in commercials or on some extreme sports show and think that they are out of control. I've had encounters with hikers while I was on my rigid single speed and they clearly thought I was a menance just seconds away from running them down when in fact I was rolling at maybe 10 miles an hour on level ground completely in control of the bike.
> 
> The point is that the image you refer to is all perception. There's always someone who's going to perceive bicyclists (any bicyclists on any bike) as out of control delinquents.
> 
> Can't we all just relax and be nice to each other?


I agree totally about skidding on trails. I do TONS of trailwork and I hate this rude behavior. But that's all it is rude. It's not dangerous to unsuspecting people and it's a much more controlled environment. Not to mention there is a point at which you learn not to do that anymore. That's a beginner move. Thanks for backing me up on my point about the genral public groups us together. Thank you also for not acting like a child. Most FR guys (once they know what they're doing) are really good at staying away from pedestrians (there are plenty of uneducated newbies but educating them is a whole nother issue).

Thanks for your post.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

FlatFender said:


> seriously wondering if you have been to college now. Read it again, all the way through this time.
> Just because someones bike does not have a freewheel does not make them irresponsible.
> Your arguement needs work.
> 
> My point was that you are stereotyping ALL fixie riders into one category, and obviously we all know that stereotypes are wrong more often than not.


I'm in college now and I've taken all the classes pertinent to argument already.

You're right. I made an unfair generalization. You are irresponsible/rude if you ride in the city without f and r brakes thinking that the chain is enough to stop you.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

G-reg said:


> Two years, really:skep:? If you left a hyd disc brake absolutely untouched/unridden for two years, I'd guarantee that you'd be due for a bleeding-maybe a fluid change. Do you ride your bikes? Never have to replace pads/rotors, re-bleed, etc. And yes chains brake, I use a front brake on my fixie and replace my chain fairly often. With a 34-16 on a 26in wheel I top out at a breakneck 15mph. Say I removed my front brake and went out riding and my chain blew up&#8230;I'd simply bail out and start running. Hardly graceful, but not exactly killing a school bus full of children.


Yeah I ride every day. I have several bikes so that helps. I'm at about 14 months on my Juicy Sevens and they are barely starting to need a bleed. The Contact Point adjustment on the Sevens helps that significantly though. Still on the original pads and they had 32 full lift-assisted days this summer. 8 of those days were over 25 runs and 30,000 ft of vert. They are getting close though. Maybe I use my brakes less than average. I'll change my estimate to 1 year if you're more comfortable with that. Still pretty low-maintenance if you ask me. If I was a pedestrian I wouldn't want a bike plowing into me with or without a rider.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

MellowCat said:


> You just admited that "fixie riders are significantly more skilled"? How does this support your comment/argument?
> 
> Like you said "I feel" totally in control, but your not, accidents happen to everyone at somepoint. Anyone who says accidents don't happen to them is an accident waiting to happen.
> 
> By the way, the best rider I have ever seen on trail was a rigid fixie rider, bar none.


I said the average fixie rider is probably more skilled. That doesn't make the bike itself any safer.

I've got a few good pictures of me crashing in my gallery. Not one of them is from a failure to stop. They are all from not reading the terrain properly.


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## Ignatz (Jun 18, 2004)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Thanks for backing me up on my point about the genral public groups us together.QUOTE]
> 
> Ummm, I think you missed my point. The non-riding majority could apply your reasoning to any type of cyclist. It is in fact a common argument used by hikers and equestrians to try and get us banned from trails ("those crazy mountain bikers are all out of control and a menance to my peaceful wilderness experience").
> 
> As the minority it is in our best interest to all work together to overcome the stereotypes that are generated by people reacting to a few thoughtless individuals. Creating additional division by applying the actions of a few people (brakeless fixie riders who cannot always control their bikes) to the whole (fixie riders) just weakens all of our efforts.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

MellowCat said:


> Maybe we hated the whole "debate team" vibe....
> 
> I've been in sales for 20 years, I would hardly call your argument well assembled. Using "retarded" to describe children is reckless at best. If you wanted to say you hate fixies on the road you got your point across. I believe in your First Amendment rights, but....this is not a roadie board. Take your argument to a board that really loves fixies on the road. Your point will be made to several times the population versus arguing it here. Surely that makes sense to you?
> 
> MC


Since no one has come up with a rebuttal to either of my points that I can't argue I believe it's pretty well put together. Children aren't incredibly smart as a whole. Sorry if you don't like "retarded" but I think you would agree that I've tolerated a lot of more childish personal attacks in this thread. Not one person has posted on the pro-fixie thread telling them to take it elsewhere and I think you would agree that this issue is clearly relevant to a lot of people on this board. Besides I can barely type fast enough to keep up with the number of responses here. What is a mountainbike anyway?
Surely that makes sense to you?


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

Ignatz said:


> Ummm, I think you missed my point. The non-riding majority could apply your reasoning to any type of cyclist. It is in fact a common argument used by hikers and equestrians to try and get us banned from trails ("those crazy mountain bikers are all out of control and a menance to my peaceful wilderness experience").
> 
> As the minority it is in our best interest to all work together to overcome the stereotypes that are generated by people reacting to a few thoughtless individuals. Creating additional division by applying the actions of a few people (brakeless fixie riders who cannot always control their bikes) to the whole (fixie riders) just weakens all of our efforts.


Exactly
That's why we have to go out of our way to be extra safe. Don't assume things about where/how I ride. Everywhere I ride is FR-specific, believe it or not. All my main spots are on private land and single-use. I'm on your side.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

29Colossus said:


> It is just embarrassing is all. Like someone who isn't a doctor making assertions about doctoring in a room full of doctors.


Are you suggesting I'm not a bike rider or not a fixie rider?
I definitely have enough experience with both.
Your posts have been easily the most childish.
Once again you don't know anything about my riding.

I have gotten some good arguments. Just not from you.


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

Lemme see... 

I'll be riding 10,000 km this year (barring death and dismemberment) and come spring, some of those miles are going to be ridden on a fixed gear, albeit with a front brake.

I'm also a responsible rider and a huge advocate of cycling as an alternative form of transportation and lifestyle.

Brakeless fixies are a little frightening to most people, even avid cyclists like myself..


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

Upchuck said:


> Yo Troll, bored this evening?


Not a troll. I've had other user names. Lots of people know me here.
I also own a SS so I definitely have a right to post here.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

FlatFender said:


> oh, BTW, I HAVE snapped a brake cable before.


You're not the first person. If it was on the street and just failed applying the brakes then you should call the company to complain and never use that brand again. Did it fail at the clamp?


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

Sixty Fiver said:


> Lemme see...
> 
> I'll be riding 10,000 km this year (barring death and dismemberment) and come spring, some of those miles are going to be ridden on a fixed gear, albeit with a front brake.
> 
> ...


Thanks for you post. Do you plan on riding a fixie on busy city streets?


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## MellowCat (Jan 12, 2004)

Children are not retarded, they're less experienced, and yet much more enjoyable to be around than adults that think their educated on arguing a point.... Have a few someday when your old enough and you'll better know what your talking about. Kids teach you more than a Harvard education ever could.

Well, I for one have better things to do with my time than follow this thread anymore. Enjoy your trolling.

MC


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## kemmer (Jun 17, 2006)

A brakeless fixed gear bike in the hands of a skilled rider can stop as well as or better than, say, a Schwinn Breeze with slightly out of true steel wheels and crappy wal mart brake pads or just a coaster brake. So what if you can stop a little bit faster than a brakeless rider with your fancy shmancy disc brakes? It's not as if it takes a whole city block to stop fixed gear without a brake. 

My fixie has a brake, I find the mainting a brake is less work/money than replacing tires all the time from skidding all over town, but that's just me.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

G-reg said:


> Ok, I'll bite. DSB you are mindlessly stereotyping any cyclist without a freewheel. I'll agree that the trendy-3/4 pants-wanna be messenger-handbrakeless-track bike thing is stupid. So are freeriders that build illegal trails, get the most out of their eleventeen piston 10in rotors by going 50mph and then skidding, catching "knar air," etc on multi use trails. Since there are a few of those idiots tearing around, should I assume that every dude I see on a dual suspension bike with more than 5in of travel and disc brakes is a erosion causing prick and go on a tirade on an internet forum? No, that's retarded. I just about completely disagree with your statement: "the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a single rear disc brake." Firstly, disc brakes are not trouble free and not low maintenance, certainly not more so than a V-brake or a fixed gear cog. Rotors get bent, pads get contaminated, rotor bolts loosen, need to be bled, need long full length cables, etc. As an avid Fixie rider, I can apply the "rear brake" just as quickly (and with waaaaaay better modulation&#8230;no really) and with just as much braking force with the pedals as I can with a disc brake. The limiting factor on the rear wheel is traction, physics says so&#8230;and physics is smarter than you.(I think I've said that before).


You're completely right on almost all counts. I did make an unfair generalization but I already apologized for that. I hate irresponsible FRs just as much as irresponsible fixie riders.
I disagree BIG TIME about V-Brakes being less maintenance. That is, of course, under hard use. With V-Brakes you have to keep your wheels perfectly true and lube/replace cables constantly. I don't believe impact damage (bent rotors) is pertinent since that throws everything out the window. Anything can get damaged in a crash. Pads get contaminated and rotor bolts loosen only if you don't know how to work on discs. As far as reliability and bleed frequency goes that's very much brand-dependant. It unfair to generalize about Avid, Formula, Hope, Magura, or Shimano based on experience with Hayes or Diatech.
Chains still break pretty often.


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## Ignatz (Jun 18, 2004)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Don't assume things about where/how I ride. QUOTE]
> 
> I didn't make any assumptions about how or where YOU ride. I was speaking about mountain biking in general.
> 
> ...


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Thanks for you post. Do you plan on riding a fixie on busy city streets?


I ride all my bikes on busy streets.

Once I get comfy on the fixie (it's a road bike) it will also see the same busy streets and probably get used a good deal for my commute.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

Ignatz said:


> This argument rests on two flawed assumptions;
> 1 - that all fixies are brakeless and therefore "irresponsible." Clearly from replies here and in a variety of other forums I'm familiar with a fair percentage of fixed riders have at least one brake on their bike.
> 2 - that all fixies are ridden in a manner that frightens or endangers pedestrians and/or motorists. Sure, some are but so are some singlespeeds, some downhill bikes, some Walmart bikes... Why single out fixies? (no pun intended)
> A well maintained fixed gear bike ridden by someone who gives a crap about the people around him is no more irresponsible or dangerous than any other type of bike.
> It's about the operator, not the machine.


This is the third time I've apologized for my unfair generalization. 
I don't, however, think that a front brake is enough. IMO you should have f and r brakes on a city street. I have ridden my r brake only SS on the street but it's not a good idea and I certainly wouldn't commute in a city among cars like that.
I never said that they were all ridden dangerously just that the bikes themselves are dangerous.
Why single out fixies? I think I've made it clear that I believe they are all dangerous if not used in the right environment (velodrome).
Several people on this thread that claim to be experienced have demonstrated a profound disinterest in the safety of others.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

If that's your decision then be careful and don't go very fast. Also make sure your chain is in good condition.


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

I'd say that folks who only ride with a rear brake (unless they ride a coaster bike) are a little irresponsible or ignorant of the physics involved in stopping a bike... it's the front brake that does most of the work.


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

I'm always careful and my bikes are always well maintained but telling me not to go really fast is like asking the sun not to rise.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

kemmer said:


> A brakeless fixed gear bike in the hands of a skilled rider can stop as well as or better than, say, a Schwinn Breeze with slightly out of true steel wheels and crappy wal mart brake pads or just a coaster brake. So what if you can stop a little bit faster than a brakeless rider with your fancy shmancy disc brakes? It's not as if it takes a whole city block to stop fixed gear without a brake.
> 
> My fixie has a brake, I find the mainting a brake is less work/money than replacing tires all the time from skidding all over town, but that's just me.


Good point about crap bikes. I, of course, have no statistics to back this up but I'm willing to bet that a larger percentage of fixie owners commute on their bikes than crappy bike owners. I do believe in minimum standards to be allowed to operate on a city street regardless of what type of bike you have. They have such laws for cars. The minimum standards IMO should be pretty high for everyone's good.

I've already stated several times that everyone agrees that skidding is bad etiquette.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

Sixty Fiver said:


> I'd say that folks who only ride with a rear brake (unless they ride a coaster bike) are a little irresponsible or ignorant of the physics involved in stopping a bike... it's the front brake that does most of the work.


Yes Yes and Yes


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

Sixty Fiver said:


> I'm always careful and my bikes are always well maintained but telling me not to go really fast is like asking the sun not to rise.


You're from Edmonton, Alberta?
That's a pretty busy city if I had to guess (never been). Not quite as bad as riding one in SF, NY, Portland, or Chicago but still dangerous IMO.
Like I said I knew I wouldn't change anyone's mind.


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## dannybob (Feb 21, 2004)

G-reg said:


> Ok, I'll bite. DSB you are mindlessly stereotyping any cyclist without a freewheel. I'll agree that the trendy-3/4 pants-wanna be messenger-handbrakeless-track bike thing is stupid. So are freeriders that build illegal trails, get the most out of their eleventeen piston 10in rotors by going 50mph and then skidding, catching "knar air," etc on multi use trails. Since there are a few of those idiots tearing around, should I assume that every dude I see on a dual suspension bike with more than 5in of travel and disc brakes is a erosion causing prick and go on a tirade on an internet forum? No, that's retarded. I just about completely disagree with your statement: "the definition of trouble-free and low maintenance is a single rear disc brake." Firstly, disc brakes are not trouble free and not low maintenance, certainly not more so than a V-brake or a fixed gear cog. Rotors get bent, pads get contaminated, rotor bolts loosen, need to be bled, need long full length cables, etc. As an avid Fixie rider, I can apply the "rear brake" just as quickly (and with waaaaaay better modulation&#8230;no really) and with just as much braking force with the pedals as I can with a disc brake. The limiting factor on the rear wheel is traction, physics says so&#8230;and physics is smarter than you.(I think I've said that before).


Physics also says that if you are skidding you have no traction. You may have friction but not traction.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

dannybob said:


> Physics also says that if you are skidding you have no traction. You may have friction but not traction.


Yep That's why you steer into a skid (duh).
That's why you need an infallible means of stopping both wheels.


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## SlowerThenSnot (Jul 16, 2004)

*Go to*

www.63xc.com

http://www.oldskooltrack.com/files/home.frame.html

I'd have to argue about the control issue Now I do use brakes sometimes 2 but 75% of time on trail I don't use them..... On the road its more for for someone stepping out in front of me be it car or person. Porb maybe use the brakes maybe 5% of the time on the road. Put close to to 16,000 miles by bike last year and 14.5 k was on fixies... I feel far more in control on a fixie vs. a coasty or geared bike

If you don't like disco don't listen.... Don't like the kool-aid, don't drink it!

Don't like fixies don't ride them! Just my .02

BTW= Pic is up in Crested Butte last year on a fixie


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

dannybob said:


> Physics also says that if you are skidding you have no traction. You may have friction but not traction.


Um, exactly. It does not matter how much braking force you can apply over what is needed to skid the wheel.



DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Yep That's why you steer into a skid (duh).
> That's why you need an infallible means of stopping both wheels.


1) What, is this drivers ed? How do you steer the front tire if it skids? 
2) For safety we should all have to ride bikes like my first Huffy, a coaster brake and hand brakes. What braking system is infallible? And unless there is conversation involving SS MOUNTAIN BIKES, this thread has gone on about 4 pages too many.



DeepSouthBuilder said:


> With V-Brakes you have to keep your wheels perfectly true and lube/replace cables constantly. I don't believe impact damage (bent rotors) is pertinent since that throws everything out the window. Anything can get damaged in a crash.


So how exactly is bending a rotor different than knocking a rim out of true, besides it being easier to bend a rotor?


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Moved


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

Ten year messenger
College grad (hope that makes me smart enough to reply)

I've had ONE near-accident since going fixed (wouldn't have been any better with a brake). I am annoyed by noobies showing up and riding fixie in my town without figuring out how to ride in traffic first. I am just as annoyed by noobies who ride bikes with freewheels in a reckless manner. A stupid rider is just that, a stupid rider.

Here's my cut and paste reply to this topic:

"Coaster brakes are found on everyday beach cruisers and children's bikes.

They rely on the drivetrain to slow down.
They rely on leg strength to work.
They will not work if the chain falls off/breaks.
They are usually found on bikes WITHOUT a front brake or a backup option.
They should be illegal (in your world).

Anything I missed?"


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

FlatFender said:


> oh, BTW, I HAVE snapped a brake cable before.


Me too. It broke near the cable end in the lever. Theoretically it 
could've happened at a bad time (it didn't).


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## thadthetroll (Jan 22, 2004)

*How many responses you have..*



DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Not a troll. I've had other user names. Lots of people know me here.
> I also own a SS so I definitely have a right to post here.


ohh, i love my fixies.
Deepsouthbuilder...how many times have you posted in this thread.
I not only ride fixies 95% of the time..i build my own frames so i guess that really makes me unsafe.....
By the way..are you PVD`S twin brother...


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## duotone (Dec 31, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> I'm glad you enjoyed it. Now use it somewhere safe. You wouldn't drive a drag racer on a city street if I had to guess.


Actually... I used to race every weekend in my 1970 nova with a Bored out 327 from a stingray Corvette, M21 4-speed, 411 gears and posi.... but I digress, and it was my daily driver even though it did low 13's in the quarter mile.

And if I had a fixie I'd ride, but ride it like any other bike. Resposibly.

Tony

PS: My Nova also had 13:1 compression. :thumbsup:


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## duotone (Dec 31, 2006)

Personally it comes down to the person who started this thread is one who deems that they know what's best for everyone else... sounds like a democrat. I don't have a fixie, but don't think that just because you think you know what's best is best, cuz it ain't.

How about if I say to you that you can't have any beer because I can't.... nevermind, this thread has run its course and it's a dead thread.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

duotone said:


> Actually... I used to race every weekend in my 1970 nova with a Bored out 327 from a stingray Corvette, M21 4-speed, 411 gears and posi.... but I digress, and it was my daily driver even though it did low 13's in the quarter mile.
> 
> And if I had a fixie I'd ride, but ride it like any other bike. Resposibly.
> 
> ...


I had an S10 w/ a 383 in the 14s that was very streetable. I'm talking rails/funny cars. 13:1 damn! That's not exactly legal probably. Not even here in Alabama.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

teamdicky said:


> Ten year messenger
> College grad (hope that makes me smart enough to reply)
> 
> I've had ONE near-accident since going fixed (wouldn't have been any better with a brake). I am annoyed by noobies showing up and riding fixie in my town without figuring out how to ride in traffic first. I am just as annoyed by noobies who ride bikes with freewheels in a reckless manner. A stupid rider is just that, a stupid rider.
> ...


Nope, you pretty much nailed it. I agree with everything you said.
The college comment was for everyone that felt the need to insult me without giving me any real information.


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## max-a-mill (Apr 14, 2004)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> To say that you don't care about other people when your on your bike is the definition of irresponsible. That is why the public has yet to embrace bikes in the US. They are afraid of us. It's up to us to dispel this image if we don't want to be shunned forever.


nope america is lazy and looking for the easiest most convienient way to get from point a to b without breaking a sweat or getting dirty...

imust admit i haven't even read most of the rest of the thread but i assure you my fixed gear (with a front break) is just as safe to ride in traffic as any of your bikes and i do it most every day.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

duotone said:


> Personally it comes down to the person who started this thread is one who deems that they know what's best for everyone else... sounds like a democrat. I don't have a fixie, but don't think that just because you think you know what's best is best, cuz it ain't.
> 
> How about if I say to you that you can't have any beer because I can't.... nevermind, this thread has run its course and it's a dead thread.


I vote Democrat more often than not but if McCain gets the nod he'll get my vote. I like moderates. If I had to guess the liberal demographic and avid cyclist demographic probably overlap a lot so that's a pretty fool-proof guess. 
I am willing to change my mind. In fact the posts that weren't childish have greatly increased my opinion of fixies. I really wish people could just not take this so damn personal.
I haven't insulted a single person but have taken lots of insults myself.
I don't drink but thanks.


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## duotone (Dec 31, 2006)

Cool. Now that I've had my coffee I'm good.... Don't take my coffee away... PLEASE


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Are you suggesting I'm not a bike rider or not a fixie rider?
> I definitely have enough experience with both.
> Your posts have been easily the most childish.
> Once again you don't know anything about my riding.
> ...


I am not suggesting anything. I am telling you. You suck at riding fixie. I have been perfectly clear in that regard.

No "argument" needs to be made. Your ignorance supercedes whatever "argument" you think you have. Stop flattering yourself. Your argument isn't worth a stuck pig, and your statements prove your lack of ability.

Your trolling isn't even painfull. It is simply misguided due to your lack of skill and ignorance regarding fixies.

If you knew how to ride a fixie with proficiency, you wouldn't have made this silly thread.

No go learn something.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

Some questions: 
Has anyone ever broken a chain stopping with their pedals on a fixie?
What are the most popular gear combos?
If you've broken a chain do you believe your gearing had anything to do with it?
Do you notice a difference in braking power with different gear ratios?
Do you use clipless or flats? (I'm pretty sure I can answer this one)


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## ernesto_from_Wisconsin (Jan 12, 2004)

*fugly fast*

holee schmoleee! this one got ugly too fast.

I ride fixie on the roads. Lucky for me I rode on country roads. I use a front brake on my fixie. My fixie and me, if we could, would have children together.

When I was commuting to Milwaukee, I'd ride the old Gunnar with a freewheel (ENO of course)...but then, seeing the gracefulness of messengers downtown, I opted to ride fixie. I learned quickly hot to have that precognitive sense when it came to pedestrians and traffic, and how just to respect the laws. If some dork in a car didn't respect, I wouldn't argue. I love my wife and child, so I won't rebute someone who cut me off in the city...out here, a different story.

Just be patient my friend. Sit back, relax, get away from the computer. Watch HGTV and get some ideas from "Design on a Dime" and partake in some Häagen-Dazs.

Life's too short to just b i t c h & moan about quandries.


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## ernesto_from_Wisconsin (Jan 12, 2004)

*answers*

Has anyone ever broken a chain stopping with their pedals on a fixie?
Not me. I'm a badass

What are the most popular gear combos?
Mine are these but I ride 46/16 on the fixie. 34/16 on my 29er.

If you've broken a chain do you believe your gearing had anything to do with it?
nope, if I broke a chian it is because its old and stretched out.

Do you notice a difference in braking power with different gear ratios?
Well, since I use a front brake and leg resistance at the same time for breaking...

Do you use clipless or flats? (I'm pretty sure I can answer this one)
Clipless is the way I roll


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## teamdicky (Jan 12, 2004)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Some questions:
> Has anyone ever broken a chain stopping with their pedals on a fixie?


No



DeepSouthBuilder said:


> What are the most popular gear combos?


I run a 48X18



DeepSouthBuilder said:


> If you've broken a chain do you believe your gearing had anything to do with it?


N/A Keep in mind, my chains are always replaced when they hit .75 on a Park Chain Checker. It's left on my workbench as a reminder to check it often.



DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Do you notice a difference in braking power with different gear ratios?


The only other gear I ran was a 48X19, so no.



DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Do you use clipless or flats? (I'm pretty sure I can answer this one)


I run SPD (sandals mostly). Lots of guys in town use toeclips. I've only popped out a few times when my cleat was worn way the hell out ( I know better than that). It won't happen again.


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## mcoco01 (Sep 29, 2005)

I'm not a fixie rider, but it seems to me that if you're going about 10-15mph and some kid, retarded or otherwise, jumps out in front of you quick enough to require you stopping on a dime (ie you don't have time to turn to avoid him), then no amount of braking power is really going to help. Same thing in a car, if a kid jumps out at the right time, he's screwed. We can debate all day about the most effective braking system, put them side-by-side and compare their stopping distances, measure wear on components versus time spent maintaining those components, blah, blah, blah. But I don't think that would solve anything and probably wouldn't be very interesting. I think it is true that something that is moving is inherently dangerous when it is used in close proximity to something that is stationary. It is also true that if you don't have time to stop or avoid collision, then that's it: you don't have time to stop. That's not a function of your equipment choice any more than it is a function of your clothing choice on that particular day.

I do agree that the cycling community needs to consider how it represents itself to the general public, especially in traffic. I see riders running lights and disobeying traffic laws and all that does is make drivers hate cyclists. And riders tearing up trails just makes hikers and other environmentalists hate us too. For example, I bought a few mountain bike DVDs not too long ago and there was just as much footage of the riders throwing stuff at cars on the highway, destroying hotel rooms, and vandalizing public spaces as there was of them riding. This is hardly representative of the cycling community, but they're out there representing us, in real life and on DVD. If we're not careful to avoid the public's misplaced hatred then they might start passing laws requiring passengar car grade braking systems on all road bikes, ban us from all trails, tax the hell out of beer...nobody wants to see that happen. That's one of the most serious problems facing cycling now, getting rid of the mentality among *some* riders (freeride, fixie, singlespeed, full-suspension, democrat, repubican, whoever) who are just out to piss off the man. While we're at it we could probably get rid of those members of thegeneral public who hate cyclists for no good reason. Then the rest of us will be perfectly capable of living in harmony.

Amen!


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## tomimcmillar (Oct 27, 2005)

DSB, since you're all about making a proper argument, do you have any statistics to back up your 'unsafe' & 'irresponsible' claims?

Like, how many accidents involved/were caused by brakeless fixy vs a 'normal' two brake equipped bicycle? You know, like using facts rather than perception to support your claims? If someone swings open a car door, or jaywalks out in front of me, it doesn't matter what sort of brake my bike is equipped with, someone's going down, most likely me.

Along the line of your 'debate', I would posit that all freeriders should also be banned. I've even seen pictures & video of them doing wall rides, rail slides, stair gaps, etc in an urban environment. Do they or don't they put the general public in as much danger as a street fixy rider in that same urban environment? By 'vandalizing' existing structures much like skateboarders are perceived to, aren't your urban freeride brothers as much of a blight on the image of cycling as an urban brakeless fixy rider?

Or is that A-O-K, because you think it's cool? I mean, that shite looks dangerous and out of control so it should be banned! I've even ridden down some stairs at the local college campus, maybe even caught some air off a few, so I guess I'm as much of an expert in your genre as you are on fixed wheel bikes with your two fixie rides.

By constructing your ramps and bridges and stunts out in the local forest, aren't you also a blight on the image of cycling when viewed thru the eyes of some crunchy tree hugging hiker? Why can't you just enjoy nature as it is?

From your original post, you said it yourself:
"To the general public we are all just bikers. There are not different categories with different considerations."

So, why exactly, are *you* singling out one very small portion of the culture?


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

I've changed my mind. Partially
If you have a front brake you're good.
My reasoning is that in an emergency stop situation a front brake would take a significant amount of load off of the chain thereby making it pretty improbable that it would break.
That's the best argument I've seen yet and I came up with it.
Anecdotal evidence is only kind of helpful. If you have any real facts you should easily be able to sway me since I don't have any to back up my stance. (I doubt the neccessary statistic exist)

29Colossus: you are now on my ignore list since all you did was insult me in 5 or so posts. I'm pretty sure you don't care. Once again: Rider skill has NOTHING to do with the safety of the equipment. That is not a way to win this argument.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

One more question:
What size wheels do you use?


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## xmynameisdan (Aug 16, 2006)

So lets say you're braking and OH SCHNAP your F and R cables break, and your chain!! Does that make the rider irresponsible because he didn't have more backups? That's what I'm getting out of your argument. 

For the record, I believe that brakeless fixies are completely moronic. This hipster shiit is kind of silly. 

I ride a fixed gear with a front brake. That combined with resistance of the rear wheel is just as effective as having two cable pull brakes. If one or the other breaks, I'm confident I could get to a stop and walk it home.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> 29Colossus: you are now on my ignore list since all you did was insult me in 5 or so posts. I'm pretty sure you don't care. Once again: Rider skill has NOTHING to do with the safety of the equipment. That is not a way to win this argument.


Thank God for that! That is the best choice you could have made for yourself.

There is no argument. There is just your lack of fixie skill and your ignorance. You don't even deny it. You know it. You have very little fixie experience and skill. You have no real clue what the stopping capabilities of a fixie sans rear brake are.

That is the ONLY problem here.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> One more question:
> What size wheels do you use?


Since you asked yourself the question, we will all wait for the answer. :madman: Is this guy for real?

I'm going to bet that the wheels on the road bikes are 650/700, and the cruiser/mountainbikes are gonna probably be 26" or 29"....

Go figure huh?


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## tozovr (Jul 26, 2006)

I thought this was a MTB forum.

As far as I know, no one on a fixed MTB has been opressed by the law...yes? See you over on http://forums.roadbikereview.com/


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## ernesto_from_Wisconsin (Jan 12, 2004)

I just read the post from beginning to here. This is so like, ********* retarded.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

The question is not about stopping capacity. I know that if you stop moving your feet the wheel stops turning. No huge leap of logic there. The question is about the reliabilty and thusly the safety of that method of stopping.

I'm asking about the most popular wheel size because it's pretty easy to come up with a mathematical formula for load and it should IMO be based on average/most popular combos. Hell, I could test tensile strength of chains in my house on a pretty easily constructed rig.

Believe it or not I really am trying to gather some info here.

That's the last time I read any of your posts. Really.


I guess I should have asked if anyone knew of anyone that had broken a chain this way?


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## Jwiffle (Jan 26, 2004)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Rider skill has NOTHING to do with the safety of the equipment.


While rider skill may not directly have much to do with the safety of the equipment, it does play indirectly into the equation. You can put all the safety measures you want into a car, but if the guy behind the wheel doesn't know how to drive and runs it into a tree at 60 mph, there is still a very great chance he will be injured or killed (not to mention if he runs it into someone else!) Likewise, an unskilled rider on a fixie may be quite unsafe, while a skilled and experienced fixie rider will be (for the sake of argument) much less unsafe.

Riding a fixie without a front or rear brake is not necessarily irresponsible. Are there many who do ride so irresponsible? Yes, but that does not make the bike itself an irresponsible means of transportation.

If someone who rides a freewheel with both brakes never takes care of their bike, something is bound to happen eventually. Both brake lines going at once are not very likely, you would think. Yet many people bring bikes into our shop wherein neither brakes work because the cables are corroded, the pads are worn, the rim is a mess, etc. Definitely not as safe as a well-kept fixie, that's for sure.

The main issue, it appears to me, with the anti-fixie party is the lack of apparent back-up braking system when riding a fixie without a brake. On a freewheel bike with 2 brakes, there is a back-up if one fails. But it is possible, and quite frequent, that both do fail on bikes I've seen ridden on the streets. Yet, there are still measures a rider can take if they loose their braking systems, whether the cable or chain snapped. There is always the old drag-your-feet method, there is the hop off and slow the bike down by running along while holding it, and there is the lay-the-bike-down-if-you-really-need-to method or running into an object that you can't hurt with your bike to avoid hurting someone or something (all of these methods I have seen performed, or performed myself, on freewheeled bikes with brakes).

Finally, an argument that a fixie rider may lose his ability to stop if he has a leg spasm or cramp is not very well founded, either. Hands get tired from braking pretty quickly, moreso than the much stronger legs. I find myself more likely to get hand-spasms or cramps. And both of these can be avoided by proper stretching and hydration.

So although I personally do not and never have ridden a fixie, I do not see how they are inherently irresponsible or rude machines. It's the riders who are irresponsible and/or rude, regardless of what kind of bike.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

Jwiffle said:


> While rider skill may not directly have much to do with the safety of the equipment, it does play indirectly into the equation. You can put all the safety measures you want into a car, but if the guy behind the wheel doesn't know how to drive and runs it into a tree at 60 mph, there is still a very great chance he will be injured or killed (not to mention if he runs it into someone else!) Likewise, an unskilled rider on a fixie may be quite unsafe, while a skilled and experienced fixie rider will be (for the sake of argument) much less unsafe.
> 
> Riding a fixie without a front or rear brake is not necessarily irresponsible. Are there many who do ride so irresponsible? Yes, but that does not make the bike itself an irresponsible means of transportation.
> 
> ...


THANK YOU for an intelligent response.
Not much I can say to that. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## crux (Jan 10, 2004)

Riding a Fixie is really not really all that difficult only thing to keep in mind is keep pedaling. Ok this is an over simplification of a fixie. Love my Fixie and only thing I'd change out is the frame for one with better geometry that would fit a bit closer. Only brake on mine is the ability to backpedal. 

This being said and knowing the laws of physics one can stop shorter with a front brake vs a rear. Since a true fixie only has a "rear brake" it will not stop as quick as a bike with an operational front brake. If one does ride a fixie I could see an argument for insalling a front brake ONLY. rear brake is already built in to the design.


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## EvilScience (Jul 16, 2004)

Jwiffle said:


> The main issue, it appears to me, with the anti-fixie party is the lack of apparent back-up braking system when riding a fixie without a brake. On a freewheel bike with 2 brakes, there is a back-up if one fails. But it is possible, and quite frequent, that both do fail on bikes I've seen ridden on the streets. Yet, there are still measures a rider can take if they loose their braking systems, whether the cable or chain snapped. There is always the old drag-your-feet method, there is the hop off and slow the bike down by running along while holding it, and there is the lay-the-bike-down-if-you-really-need-to method or running into an object that you can't hurt with your bike to avoid hurting someone or something (all of these methods I have seen performed, or performed myself, on freewheeled bikes with brakes).


I completely agree that there are emergency measures on both fixed and non-fixed bikes that work equally well in event of rare mechanical failure. As I tried to point out in the other thread, my major issue is a general lack of skill amongst many fixie riders. IF you don't know what you are doing, flying around town on a fixie (typically with one or no brakes) during rush hour is going to be inherently dangerous (and not just to yourself), just like taking a kid on his first driving lesson down the freeway and into town during rush hour in the snow... Fun? I'm sure the thrill is great. Advisable? Probably not.

OTOH, if you know what your are about, I have no issues with fixies (with front brake at least) - I just see more and more clueless riders on them as they increase in hipster popularity. Sure, there are plenty of clueless riders on geared bikes too, but they would be 10x more deadly on fixies! :eekster:

Note, I'm NOT trying to support tghe "irresponsible/rude" accusations, just weighing in on the fixie issue in general. Sounds like most everyone posting up in favor of fixed knows how to ride, and aren't jerks. :thumbsup: However, the fact you're on this board pushes the general level of expertise up a few notches over the general public.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

EvilScience said:


> Note, I'm NOT trying to support tghe "irresponsible/rude" accusations, just weighing in on the fixie issue in general. Sounds like most everyone posting up in favor of fixed knows how to ride, and aren't jerks. :thumbsup: However, the fact you're on this board pushes the general level of expertise up a few notches over the general public.


Good point about the experience represented on this board. 
I don't really like the thread title any more either.
That seems to be what is offending people the most.


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## tomimcmillar (Oct 27, 2005)

DSB, if you're concerned about chain strength w/ relation to failure from braking, you need to think about the issue a little bit more. Which puts more strain on a chain?

Mashing up a hill with positive traction, whether on pavement or dirt?
Or the force req'd to lock up the rear wheel?

You generate a hell of a lot more drivetrain stress while climbing then while braking. 

Personally, I'm much more concerned about popping a chain while climbing at my max, than I am while descending.....think about it.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

I just got finished reading A Treatise On Toleration by Voltaire.
Great read. I suggest it to anyone that hasn't already read it.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

tomimcmillar said:


> DSB, since you're all about making a proper argument, do you have any statistics to back up your 'unsafe' & 'irresponsible' claims?
> 
> Like, how many accidents involved/were caused by brakeless fixy vs a 'normal' two brake equipped bicycle? You know, like using facts rather than perception to support your claims? If someone swings open a car door, or jaywalks out in front of me, it doesn't matter what sort of brake my bike is equipped with, someone's going down, most likely me.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said. :thumbsup:

Nope no real facts to back me up. I haven't seen any from yall (yeah I said it) either.
That's why I'm willing to change my opinion If I hear some.

Experienced FR guys generally try to stay away from people. FR is really dangerous (can't argue that) but when done right it's not dangerous to unsuspecting pedestrians unless they can't read a trail sign. We have also brought about a Rennaissance of sustainable trailbuilding methods. That is, of course, due to the insane terrain in BC and the extreme lengths required to build trails there.

I do 90% of my riding on one of 5 legal, privately owned, FR-specific trail systems. One of those I've located, dealt with logistics, and developed ground-up mostly myself (It's blown up now and I have lots of help). Two more of those I've helped a lot in the construction. One is too far for me to have gotten much chance to help and the fifth is a ski-resort. I've even torn down poorly-constructed trails that I would have loved to ride and I'm REALLY picky about wood-work. So you're preaching to the choir. I do believe that a well-maintained FR bike is more idiot-proof than a well-maintained no-brake fixie.

EDIT: I forgot to mention my major is Sports and Recreation Management with a focus in Facility Design and Planning (almost done). I want to work on bike parks for a living.

There is a certain amount of urban riding that is not damaging to architecture but no reasonable person can argue the impact of grinding/stalls. Most of that stuff should be confined to parks.

I agree that my title is poor :madman: but the content of my posts in no way ignorantly or indescriminately singles anyone out. In fact I have given the pro-fixie side plenty of arguments to back thier's up and have changed my mind on a few things.


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## duotone (Dec 31, 2006)

Oh if we could only rewind and re-name a thread......


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

duotone said:


> Oh if we could only rewind and re-name a thread......


AMEN TO THAT

Thanks for getting the point.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## Frank Tuesday (Jan 12, 2004)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Chains still break pretty often.


All chains are not created equal. Most chain breakage occurs due to 1)improper shifting technique, 2)excessive wear 3) imact/crash damage.

I don't shift on my fixie, and I take care of my chain, and replace when needed. I'd never even consider using a fragile lightweight 8 or 9 speed chain on a fixie. I will never worry about breaking an Izumi EHS or V chain, though.

There are ways to stop a bike with neither a chain or functioning brake. If I need to, I can stop any bike with neither a chain or brakes. It isn't pretty, but it will keep me from going under a car in an emergency.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

Frank Tuesday said:


> All chains are not created equal. Most chain breakage occurs due to 1)improper shifting technique, 2)excessive wear 3) imact/crash damage.
> 
> I don't shift on my fixie, and I take care of my chain, and replace when needed. I'd never even consider using a fragile lightweight 8 or 9 speed chain on a fixie. I will never worry about breaking an Izumi EHS or V chain, though.
> 
> There are ways to stop a bike with neither a chain or functioning brake. If I need to, I can stop any bike with neither a chain or brakes. It isn't pretty, but it will keep me from going under a car in an emergency.


I'm seriously considering doing an experiment to test the tensile strength of a couple different chains to failure. I would also like to determine the coefficient of friction of a couple popular tires but that would be a lot harder. I wonder if tire manufacturers have those numbers. Combining the numbers based on rider-weight, wheel size, and gearing would be easy. That would definitively prove whether or not my fears are reasonable. That's why I need everyone's input on bike setup. I might give you some killer statistics.


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## Frank Tuesday (Jan 12, 2004)

dannybob said:


> Physics also says that if you are skidding you have no traction. You may have friction but not traction.


From Wiki: Traction refers to the friction between a drive member (tyre) and the surface (road) it moves upon, where the friction is used to provide motion.

From dictionary.com: Traction - noun 1.the adhesive friction of a body on some surface as a wheel on a rail or a tyre on a road.

Traction is friction. Friction (and hence traction) is reduced when skidding because when a wheel is turning, the road sees the contact patch as stationary or static. When skidding the contact patch is moving relative the road or kinetic.

The coefficient of friction between two surfaces is greater when static than kinetic. If you are skidding, you have less traction.  If you had no traction, you would never stop one you started skidding.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2007)

I'd say that I could definitely stop faster on my now retired fixie compared to your average person riding a wal-mart el-cheapo bike on the side walk. Now, put me on el-cheapo and I could stop faster than I could on my fixie. 

After a couple of years of riding a fixie and going back to a geared bike, I'd have to say that in an emergency stop my body is a hell of a lot more stable on my geared rig. This is my opinion based on my own riding competency. Let's not flame please.

Now, if fellow single speeders don't understand the stopping safety of a fixie then how could anyone expect a city/state to believe any of it? Appearances are truths to most and that's what counts when it comes to making laws. Now let's take a step back and look at this. If the average person can't hop on a fixed bike and safely operate it in an emergency situation then extra additional safety precautions must be met. I like to call that extra precaution a rear brake. It's all about the average shmo's ability and not that of the seasoned messenger. 

Should a race car driver be given special allowances because he's the best of the best when it comes to automotive maneuverability? "Oh, I've been driving for years and can do this and that better than anyone...blah blah blah." Okay...flame in 3..2..1..


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

tomimcmillar said:


> DSB, if you're concerned about chain strength w/ relation to failure from braking, you need to think about the issue a little bit more. Which puts more strain on a chain?
> 
> Mashing up a hill with positive traction, whether on pavement or dirt?
> Or the force req'd to lock up the rear wheel?
> ...


Those are exactly the type of figures I'd like to find.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

SlowerThenSnot said:


> www.63xc.com
> 
> http://www.oldskooltrack.com/files/home.frame.html
> 
> ...


Thanks for the sites. They are excellent resources. What trail is that? I've spent a pretty good bit of time in CB.


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## kemmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Jwiffle said:


> Yet, there are still measures a rider can take if they loose their braking systems, whether the cable or chain snapped. There is always the old drag-your-feet method, there is the hop off and slow the bike down by running along while holding it, and there is the lay-the-bike-down-if-you-really-need-to method or running into an object that you can't hurt with your bike to avoid hurting someone or something (all of these methods I have seen performed, or performed myself, on freewheeled bikes with brakes).


Amen to this. You've forgotten to mention the easiest way to stop a bike without a brake. Place the ball of your foot on the frame just above, or next to, the rear wheel then press the heel of your foot into the tire. This method is easily as good as a rear rim brake. Not as good as front brake, but this method will never ever fail. It's a little difficult on a road bike if you aren't flexible, but it can be done effectively.

Let me also add that I rode a _freewheeled _BMX bike for 5 years without a brake and never once had even a close call. My tall bike is brakeless and is also a freewheeled bike and I've ridden hundreds of bike vs. pedestrian/auto crash free miles on it.

If that isn't a reliable back up braking method, I don't know what is. So basically, your argument that fixies are dangerous and shouldn't be allowed on the road (because they don't have a back up braking system) is flawed.

As far as the chain failing is concerned, this is highly unlikely. You yourself have admitted that generally the cause of this is some kind of impact and other have indicated excessive wear as a factor. Impact to the chain on the street is super duper unlikely, especially at the exact instant that a unsuspecting ped walks in front of you. If you maintain your bike properly excessive wear is a non-issue. I've only had one chain break (on a bike with brakes that I had just purchased), and it was stretched way beyond what the park tool could even measure. So, again, on this topic your perceptions/assumptions are pretty far out of touch with reality.

Let me sum up my arguments for you:
1) It doesn't take as long as you think to stop a brakeless fixie. 
2) Chain failure is not nearly as likely/common as you seem to think. 
3) It's quite possible to quickly stop a bike without any brakes even in the highly unlikely event of chain failure. All bikes with riders wearing shoes have a back up braking system.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

NardoSS said:


> I'd say that I could definitely stop faster on my now retired fixie compared to your average person riding a wal-mart el-cheapo bike on the side walk. Now, put me on el-cheapo and I could stop faster than I could on my fixie.
> 
> After a couple of years of riding a fixie and going back to a geared bike, I'd have to say that in an emergency stop my body is a hell of a lot more stable on my geared rig. This is my opinion based on my own riding competency. Let's not flame please.
> 
> ...


I don't think you'll get flamed. They are too busy being mad at the thread title I came up with. 
I definitely believe there should be minimum safety standards for all bikes operated on city streets cheap or not. These standards should, of course, be based on testing and statistics. If those figures proved me wrong then I think that's great. I'm trying to decide if it would be practical for me to conduct such tests myself. I think these standards should be above and beyond minimum tested requirements to account for Joe-Shmoe and to give us all a better image.
I was afraid to bring up the issue of braking and controling the bike with your legs at the same time but I believe it's pertinent. Now I'm going to get my riding ability knocked even more. Great! There is probably a speed at which this becomes impossible. I wonder if it's within the max speed of most fixies. 
Lots of people have jumped on my 42 pound 7" travel bike and been able to handle it immediately. Based on all the angry responses that is not as easy on a fixie. (not THAT hard though) Like it or not, society (especially in sue-happy USA) needs to account for stupid people. That's why hair dryers clearly say KEEP AWAY FROM BATHTUBS.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

kemmer said:


> Amen to this. You've forgotten to mention the easiest way to stop a bike without a brake. Place the ball of your foot on the frame just above, or next to, the rear wheel then press the heel of your foot into the tire. This method is easily as good as a rear rim brake. Not as good as front brake, but this method will never ever fail. It's a little difficult on a road bike if you aren't flexible, but it can be done effectively.
> 
> Let me also add that I rode a _freewheeled _BMX bike for 5 years without a brake and never once had even a close call. My tall bike is brakeless and is also a freewheeled bike and I've ridden hundreds of bike vs. pedestrian/auto crash free miles on it.
> 
> ...


The foot-on-a-tire is a neat trick but it doesn't account for Joe Shmoe.
I'm not trying to piss anyone off. I'm genuinely curious.


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## duotone (Dec 31, 2006)

Best thing for you to do at this point deepsouthbuilder is to raise your hand and say "talk to the hand....."

How's that saying go? You can't get toothpaste back in the tube...

Dudes! deepsouth has already said he messed up the thread. Cutt'em some slack.


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## meloh1 (Jan 13, 2004)

The Hayes discs on my NRS have been serviced once since I bought the bike in September 2001. That was mainly to adjust the fluid level because I was getting too much drag. Took some fluid out and that solved the problem. They work as good (better after fluid adjustment) as the day I bought them.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

I think I'm being pretty patient with the personal attacks from people I don't know.

I would LOVE to get the information I'm looking for. Anecdotal evidence is great but it only goes so far in matters of advocacy and law.

The only compelling fact so far is one I came up with myself in the shower. Ha

I don't know how many more ways I can say that I WANT to be wrong.


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## kemmer (Jun 17, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> The foot-on-a-tire is a neat trick but it doesn't account for Joe Shmoe.
> I'm not trying to piss anyone off. I'm genuinely curious.


Joe Shmoe doesn't ride a track bike on the street. He rides a wal mart bike with useless brakes cause he got a DUI. He's the dangerous one because his brakes don't work, he rides on the sidewalk and he's probably drunk.

If you aren't able to stop a bike with a foot on the tire, you have no business on a brakeless fixie. If you aren't able to stop quickly using just your legs, you have no business on a brakeless fixie. Joe Shmoe would be rude/irresponsible if he rode a brakeless fixie, but that isn't your argument. Your argument is that *everyone *that rides a brakeless fixie is rude/irresponsible. I think that I've clearly demonstrated that if I ride a brakeless fixie, I can do so safely and I am therefore not rude/irresponsible. Game, set, match. Sorry dude, your debating skills are sorely lacking, you can't make such wide sweeping generalizations and come out ahead.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

Oops wrong place for this



kemmer said:


> Joe Shmoe doesn't ride a track bike on the street. He rides a wal mart bike with useless brakes cause he got a DUI. He's the dangerous one because his brakes don't work, he rides on the sidewalk and he's probably drunk.
> 
> If you aren't able to stop a bike with a foot on the tire, you have no business on a brakeless fixie. If you aren't able to stop quickly using just your legs, you have no business on a brakeless fixie. Joe Shmoe would be rude/irresponsible if he rode a brakeless fixie, but that isn't your argument. Your argument is that *everyone *that rides a brakeless fixie is rude/irresponsible. I think that I've clearly demonstrated that if I ride a brakeless fixie, I can do so safely and I am therefore not rude/irresponsible. Game, set, match. Sorry dude, your debating skills are sorely lacking, you can't make such wide sweeping generalizations and come out ahead.


The rules should apply to him too.

Politicians will never know the difference.

No: My argument is NOT that everyone that rides a brakeless fixie is rude/irresponsible.
My argument is that the bikes themselves are dangerous. 
I've apologized for the thread title about half a dozen times already but here goes one more.: Sorry about my out-of-line generalization of all fixie bikes.

You're more than welcome to provide more than just anecdotal evidence supporting your opinion. That's what I'm looking for. PLEASE prove wrong.

Your debating skills are weak if you think anecdotal evidence proves your side.


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## ridindog (Jun 6, 2006)

fixie schmixy i used to ride my bmx bike off cliffs with no brakesand a free wheel id just stomp on the rear tire and as my foot wedged between the frame and the tire id stop. not a skidding stop either, unless i wanted it to skid!!! now thats some skillz biatches! try that on your 
29erridgedforkonepiececrankfreeridethingy


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Wow! what can one say?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Wow! Ya might want to be carful with this one guys. He could* explode* at any minute.


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## LWright (Jan 29, 2006)

"well-assembled argument "- haven't seen it yet.

"Knowing how to ride one means nothing in terms of safety"- "Knowing" is the only thing that increases saftey.

"Fixies should not be allowed on the street because they are bad for the image of all bikers and the safety of everyone else."- I do not ride fixed, probably never will, yet even without the benifit of a college edjikashun, I understand a few things. A bicycle is a tool, no more, no less. Proper use of most any tool requires trainning, practice, maybe even natural talent. The tool is not the problem.

"Like I said the general public does not distinguish between different types of bikes."- No argument here, GP assumes all bikes are just like the Huffy they ride, and thier fear of an out of control bike may well be justifed given that the brakes on said Huffy are worthless, even when adjusted right, they are not able to stop the 40 lb POS, and they most likely are not adjusted right. Yesterday I watched a guy selecting a bicycle at WallyWorld, he was concerned (which set him above most of the GP) when the left brake lever went all the way to the grip, with no slowing of the wheel whatsoever, neither of the sales associates had any idea how to adjust the Promax disk, but they did find another bike on which the brakes kinda worked.

The only way to keep yourself and others "safe" is to be aware, be prepared, and to know how to use your tools.


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## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> I would love nothing more than for someone to come up with a decent rebuttal to either of my main points.
> 
> BTW I've broken more chains than I can count.


Good thing you weren't on the type of bike that is probably the majority in the US, i.e. one with a coaster brake only. That would have rendered you brakeless, irresponsible and rude.


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## kemmer (Jun 17, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> No: My argument is NOT that everyone that rides a brakeless fixie is rude/irresponsible.





DeepSouthBuilder said:


> You are irresponsible/rude if you ride in the city without f and r brakes thinking that the chain is enough to stop you.


Oh rly?



DeepSouthBuilder said:


> You're more than welcome to provide more than just anecdotal evidence supporting your opinion.
> Your debating skills are weak if you think anecdotal evidence proves your side.





DeepSouthBuilder said:


> If you have any real facts you should easily be able to sway me since I don't have any to back up my stance.


Demanding that I provide facts to disprove a stance on which you have no facts is a classic logical fallacy. Go back to debate school.

EDIT: One more thing:


DeepSouthBuilder said:


> My main point still stands. If you can't come to a complete stop every time without much effort then you shouldn't be around people or cars


I think I have shown that I can come to a complete stop without much effort, every time, even if I somehow manage to break a chain. Unless you would like to revise/restate your arguments, I think we're done here.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Just to throw a few more logs on the fire. I have yet to break a chain on a SS bike, many have died on geared bikes(esp. 9spd). Derailleurs, shaped cogs/chainrings with short teeth, and imperfect chain lines when in different gears pose a much greater threat to the life of a chain than any amount of SS mashing or Fixi braking.


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## Repoman84 (Nov 28, 2005)

I think I've located the heart of the problem here: "I'm in college now and I've taken all the classes pertinent to argument already". This thread really isn't about bikes at all. 
A little bit of learning is a dangerous thing, according to Pope. Haven't read him? I recommend it. Kids like to think they "know how it really is"; like to drop hints of how erudite they are by citing Voltaire, and really like telling people what they think. Most grow out of this jackass phase by the time they're 30, some of us take longer.:thumbsup:


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## kemmer (Jun 17, 2006)

G-reg said:


> Just to throw a few more logs on the fire. I have yet to break a chain on a SS bike, many have died on geared bikes(esp. 9spd). Derailleurs, shaped cogs/chainrings with short teeth, and imperfect chain lines when in different gears pose a much greater threat to the life of a chain than any amount of SS mashing or Fixi braking.


Good point, I think the OP has overestimated the chances of breaking a chain based on his experience with geared bikes and and impact due to off road riding. Neither of these problems exist on a street ridden, SS bike.


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

Yep 
They shouldn't be on the road as well.


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## kemmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Repoman84 said:


> Kids like to think they "know how it really is"; like to drop hints of how erudite they are by citing Voltaire, and really like telling people what they think.


Don't forget about telling people to go to college! :lol:

I haven't read Voltaire, but I know a logical fallacy and a well structured argument when I see them. I've seen alot of one, and none of the other.


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## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> yaddayaddayadda.... With V-Brakes you have to keep your wheels perfectly true and lube/replace cables constantly. I don't believe impact damage (bent rotors) is pertinent since that throws everything out the window...more yaddayaddayadda.


Yet another contradiction. Wouldn't you consider an out of true wheel "impact damage"?


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## DeepSouthBuilder (Jan 4, 2007)

kemmer said:


> _[/]Demanding that I provide facts to disprove a stance on which you have no facts is a classic logical fallacy. Go back to debate school.
> 
> EDIT: One more thing:
> 
> I think I have shown that I can come to a complete stop without much effort, every time, even if I somehow manage to break a chain. Unless you would like to revise/restate your arguments, I think we're done here._


_

Yep definitely a logical fallacy. The difference is I'm not really tryin to prove my point. I'm trying to disprove it.

We'll throw a dropped chain in there for the hell of it too. Should be a non-issue though if you have a decent chainline and enough tension. The average person would have trouble even understanding these basic concepts. You do not get special treatment in the eyes of the law so if everyone can't do it then you shouldn't be allowed to either._


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## kemmer (Jun 17, 2006)

whodaphuck said:


> Yet another contradiction. Wouldn't you consider an out of true wheel "impact damage"?


Not always, truing a wheel is a maintenance item. This is particularly true (no pun intended) when talking about heavy riders and/or low quality/improperly built wheels .


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## kemmer (Jun 17, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> The difference is I'm not really tryin to prove my point. I'm trying to disprove it.


 OK then. Let me help you disprove your point. What were your main points again? I think I've narrowed it down to two things.

This I agree with:


DeepSouthBuilder said:


> If you don't want the general public to hate bikers as a whole then you are the only one responsible for being in total control...
> To the general public we are all just bikers. There are not different categories with different considerations....


This I do not:


DeepSouthBuilder said:


> You are irresponsible/rude if you ride in the city without f and r brakes thinking that the chain is enough to stop you...
> The question is about the reliabilty and thusly the safety of that method of stopping...


I think it has been shown that a fixed gear bike is able to stop using the chain/the riders legs in a reasonable ammount of time. I think I have shown that even if my chain breaks, I can still stop quickly by using my foot on the tire. No, I don't have any skidpad results to tell you just how fast I can stop. No such figures exist and untill they do it's a little redonkulous to come here posting things like "You are irresponsible/rude if you ride in the city without f and r brakes."

Don't try to weasle out of this by saying you are trying to dispove your position, you came here with some pretty strong opptions and no facts to back them up and now that it looks like you were wrong you're trying to backpedal.


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Keeping disc's perfectly straight is a maintenance item too. I absolutely can't stand any of my brakes making any kind of noise or rubbing, it's my pet peeve. And a disc that is 1mm out of true wrecks my world much quicker than a rim being 1mm out of true. I love my discs, currently XTR's and have tried a number of the other usual suspects. I would say that none of them, cable or hydraulic, are as reliable as the chain. I started riding fixie because I would commute to class everyday (handbrakeless!) in North Dakota. When it's 30-40 below zero, cables and dot4 are unhappy. The chain and cog worked no matter what the weather, thats relaibility. So maybe we should ALL ride fixed gears, for safety:thumbsup:.


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## necro (Jan 23, 2004)

While I didn't bother to read the entire 6 pages of conversation, I'm really not sure what the problem is. Keeping control of a fixed gear around traffic isn't difficult if you know how to ride it. I've commuted through downtown San Francisco hundreds (and hundreds) of days on my 80's bianchi pista without incident. I do have a nice old nuevo record front brake on there to help out, and I can stop if not as, close to the speed I can with dual pivot road brakes.

That track pitch chain is in no way about to snap, and as far as reliability, I haven't touched the bike in years other than lube and tires. It's nice, fun for a change, and good training.

Why is it exactly that you care what other people ride?


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## OneGearGuy (Jun 15, 2004)

I figured this would be pertinent to riding off road. But this whole "argument" thing is really silly at this point. A theory is just a theory until it is proved or disproved. Just because you say your argument is sound doesn't make it so. You are asking folks not to judge free riders or your riding style and to not make glittering generalities. Ironically, that's all you've done so far. The best way to have a "discussion," IMO, is to have a more open mind and see the topic from both sides and various angles. Shoving your idea down other's throats is not going to make for a civil discussion. That's why most folks don't talk politics or religion; most cannot take in the view from the other standpoint so there's no discussion. Just an argument with no winner. Subjective ideas cannot be settled in an objective manner.
I'm also curious as to why you've broken so many chains...
I've never broken a chain on any of my SS bikes in 6+ years of riding and racing nor on my track-only fixie or my commuting fixie. And I currently live in Pittsburgh (home of the steepest street in the world, BTW) and was living in the mountains of Asheville, NC. So my chains and SS bikes have seen some pretty harsh conditions.

OGG


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## ernesto_from_Wisconsin (Jan 12, 2004)

holeee cow. I ride back from work, and this is still going on? I think I will brake a chain over all of this...hmmm...where's my bolt cutters?


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

duotone said:


> Actually... I used to race every weekend in my 1970 nova with a Bored out 327 from a stingray Corvette, M21 4-speed, 411 gears and posi.... but I digress, and it was my daily driver even though it did low 13's in the quarter mile.
> 
> And if I had a fixie I'd ride, but ride it like any other bike. Resposibly.
> 
> ...


Umm, I dont think low 13's is exactly blazing fast. Plenty of middleaged women these days in C6 vettes, and you thought a fixie was dangerous!


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## iridetitus (Sep 16, 2004)

mudpie said:


> No debate here, I took a test ride on a fixed pista today and I thought it was outstanding. There is definately something special about it and I look forward to adding one to my collection someday.
> 
> who pooped in your cereal today......:cryin:


nice. outspokin'?

did 18 miles on mine today around a'retta. zen on a bike i swear. as much as i wish i was good enough not to, i run a front brake.


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

Hey... guess what I found yesterday ?

A 1938-ish CCM men's bike with a *coaster* brake.

Will I defile this vintage beauty with a front brake ?

No freaking way.

I figure those 28 inch wheels and what looks like a 48:18 gearing will really let me hit some good top speeds on what is relatively light vintage bike.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Sixty Fiver said:


> Hey... guess what I found yesterday ?
> 
> A 1938-ish CCM men's bike with a *coaster* brake.
> 
> ...


I can't believe it. You are sooo rude and irresponsible!

:nono:


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

Colossus... blow me.



When I am riding my new old bike (it's a rstoration project) I am going to enjoy every rude and irresponsible minute of it.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Sixty Fiver said:


> Colossus... blow me.
> 
> 
> 
> When I am riding my new old bike (it's a rstoration project) I am going to enjoy every rude and irresponsible minute of it.


DAMN you and your sour, coaster braking goodne... I mean rudeness! DAMN DAMN DAMN!

I think I'll go leave a light on in the closet or something. It's the most irresponsible thing I can think of doing at the moment.


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## Pudgerboy (Nov 17, 2006)

New thread title - My Dad could beat up your Dad. Discuss!


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

Sadly...my (step) dad isn't her to beat up your dad but if he was your dad would be toast.

In his younger days he was a human wrecking machine and tales of his adventures are still told by the old timers who are still left.

As told to me by one of his friends (a golden gloves boxer)..."I never saw him punch anyone... he preferred to pick people up and throw them into things and you couldn't hit him hard enough to knock him down."

I was most impressed that at nearly 60, he could still deadlift over 400 pounds and toss it around like I do with 150 lbs. 

Mind you... I'm 145 pounds and my dad curbed out at 345.


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## MW (Jan 17, 2007)

Anyone else have the feeling that DSB got saddled with an argumentation course at college ... and just discovered Plato? Like maybe he's just testing out this "well formed argument" bit to see claims, warrants, and proofs playing out in live discussion? Like maybe this whole thread is furnishing data for a term paper?

Should've at least asked for our consent before exploiting our knowledge and good names like that. 

--MW


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## kemmer (Jun 17, 2006)

mwnovak said:


> Should've at least asked for our consent before exploiting our knowledge and good names like that.
> 
> --MW


My name isn't all that good, and my knowledge is only half good on a good day. If I'm all he's got, he's better off trying to ride a brakeless fixie with bald tires, a bad chainline, worn chain, suicide hub, barefoot and in the rain. With "retarded" kids popping up like whack-a-moles.


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## pvd (Jan 4, 2006)

people that ride fixed gear bikes on the street with no hand brakes are stupid and lack experience. basically, they are begginers no matter how long they've been doing it.


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## datako (Aug 27, 2004)

The great thing about fixies is that the idots get culled out fairly quickly. The survivors are the good riders and well capable of deciding how & what to ride.


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## kemmer (Jun 17, 2006)

pvd said:


> people that ride fixed gear bikes on the street with no hand brakes are stupid and lack experience. basically, they are begginers no matter how long they've been doing it.


Oh rly? Beginners even if they've been doing it since you were in diapers? What about people who don't wear helmets? Are they stupid noobs too? You people are amazing, how you come up with this stuff is beyond me.

Weather or not a rider is stupid/rude/irresponsible has abso-freaking-lutely nothing to do with what kinds of levers and mechanical devices are mounted where. It has everything to do with how the bicycle is operated. You might be riding a bike with the best stopping power in the universe and still be going too fast to stop given the circumstances. OTOH, there's no reason you wouldn't be perfectly safe riding a freewheeled bike with no brakes on flat a country road with no cars in sight.


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## tonyfromDC (Nov 17, 2005)

G-reg said:


> Two years, really:skep:? If you left a hyd disc brake absolutely untouched/unridden for two years, I'd guarantee that you'd be due for a bleeding-maybe a fluid change. Do you ride your bikes? Never have to replace pads/rotors, re-bleed, etc. And yes chains brake, I use a front brake on my fixie and replace my chain fairly often. With a 34-16 on a 26in wheel I top out at a breakneck 15mph. Say I removed my front brake and went out riding and my chain blew up&#8230;I'd simply bail out and start running. Hardly graceful, but not exactly killing a school bus full of children.


You know, this reminds me of that time I was walking down the street late one night. I came across one of those mobile speed signs. You know, the ones that the police department puts on the side of the road, it posts your speed on the display as you drive by. Anyways I'm walking toward it when my speed pops up on the display. Something like 4 miles per hour. I stopped. I thought, that's pretty cool, I wonder how high I can get that to go? So I ran at the thing. 21 MPH. That sucks I know I can go faster. So I went back and ran at it a few more times. I think the fastest I got up to was 25 MPH. I gave up quickly because as my blood started racing, the alcohol from the beers I drank earlier was getting pumped though my whole body. And my muscles didn't like that too much.

By now you must be thinking. So, what's the point? Well I'll tell you the point. I think it's irresponsible for people to run in public without brakes.

I don't have any statistics so I'll make some up. The average fixie weights about 19 lbs and the average fixie rider weights a scrawny 145 lbs. That's a total of 164 lbs. Now compare that to the average FR bike weight at 32 lbs and the average FR rider a whopping 210 lbs. Total 242 lbs. By my calculation a pedestrian hit by a FR, is hit with 32 percent more mass then a pedestrian hit by a fixie.

My point here is that I'd rather be hit by a fixie. Or, actually, was my point that large people shouldn't ride on the sidewalks? I'm not sure?

I must say this, post was rather like an Ernesto post.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

Pudgerboy said:


> New thread title - My Dad could beat up your Dad. Discuss!


"Yeah... I bet he could. My dad doesn't have any arms...."

That always makes 'em feel good!


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## tonyfromDC (Nov 17, 2005)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> I'm starting to wonder if any of you have been to college. You don't seem to know how to respond to my well-assembled argument without attacking me personally. Brilliant strategy. I've yet to hear a single rebuttal to any of my points.


Hey guys , leave DeepSouthBuilder alone. The jokes aren't funny.

He has been to college and he is very smart for a gym major.

Just kidding DSB  , Sorry I couldn't resist


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## GTL (Mar 30, 2006)

Chains break - not due to linear load, i.e. straight line, (read - a properly set up and maintained fixie) - but they break from side or torsion load (read - shifting, shifting under load), or by impact (read - bashing a rock), or because you didnt pin it correctly. 

I cannot stop immediately with my Hays discs, nor can I with my fixie, nor with my "V's" nor my Campy's or with a coaster or the funky "U's". I have crashed, been hit, fallen off etc. of all of them - they all have + and -'s and being outdoors, with the rest of humainity, carries risk. 

The key to a fixie is control and an expanded awareness of the environment you are in. If your not comfortable without - use a brake and just enjoy being on a bike


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## jesusburger (Apr 20, 2006)

*Relax you guys...*

- A college education has no effect on braking performace
- I have never snapped a chain or broken a brake cable in 35 years of riding on and off the road. A good quality, well maintained chain should not break unless a rock or large stick is involved - you don't get these riding downtown. 
- In my opinion if you are going fast and need to stop "quickly" you need a front brake no matter what you are riding. I have no problem with brakeless fixies being ridden within their limits but I prefer a front brake on my bikes.


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## mcoco01 (Sep 29, 2005)

> people that ride fixed gear bikes on the street with no hand brakes are stupid and lack experience. basically, they are begginers no matter how long they've been doing it.


1+1=0
I'm never drinking again.
I was just riding along...
My carbon fiber seatpost made me faster.
Everybody else hates Americans because they're just jealous of us.
This is the last bike I'll ever have to buy, honey.
That stripper said I was special. I think she really liked me.

Oh, I'm sorry, am I in the wrong place? This is the stupid statement part of the forum, right?


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

29Colossus said:


> "Yeah... I bet he could. My dad doesn't have any arms...."
> 
> That always makes 'em feel good!


Easy boys there's no reason to get "irresponsible and rude" about it.  na,na,na,na,na
Wow I almost forgot that last na.


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## vwmtnbiker (Jan 1, 2005)

holy jeebus christmas...i cant believe i actually read MOST of this thread. laws set aside (because in their eyes no brakes is no brakes...cant fight city hall) you are intentionally flaming a group of people you seem to think you know a lot about but obviously know very little of. and i would think as an "avid freerider" you would be able to relate to someone thinking what you are doing is reckless and irresponsible. there is a reason the majority of your freeriding has to be done on private property. the law sees what you are doing as irresponsible and dangerous, not only to yourself but also to others as they could hurt themselves on your stunts. why not be a little more tolerant and just let everyone enjoy riding the kind of bike they want to, whether its a santa cruz v10, or a bianchi pista...riding is riding and we all do it for the same reasons....because we enjoy it! im sure you'll have some witty comeback to everything EVERYONE says because you have your opinions and noone can prove you wrong...on the flip side you cannot prove yourself correct to anyone who enjoys their fixie because in their eyes what you think is wrong...and honestly probably doesnt matter...sooooooo go read some college books and get a life!


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## vwmtnbiker (Jan 1, 2005)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> You do not get special treatment in the eyes of the law so if everyone can't do it then you shouldn't be allowed to either.


wow...somehow i missed this one the first time i read through......so to take that statement one step further...everyone cant do a ten foot drop, or a 15 foot gap, or a dirt jump, or ride a 3" skinny (hell some cant even ride a 3' bridge) so NOONE should be allowed to do it!

bollocks to you sir....bollocks


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## cogswell23 (Apr 24, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> I think I'm being pretty patient with the personal attacks from people I don't know.
> 
> I would LOVE to get the information I'm looking for. Anecdotal evidence is great but it only goes so far in matters of advocacy and law.
> 
> ...


First, a personal attack on DSB . . . You are such a pompous precocious judgmental ass I can barely stand it. I don't think you realize how you're coming across here. You might want to consider that.

Second, I think that a brakeless fixie is inherently and by definition less safe than a fixie with a front brake.

Third, I ride a brakeless fixie. I could be marginally safer with a brake, but I make the personal choice to set up my bike in a way that provides me with the riding experience I most want. Am I negatively impacting the safety of the general public? No, because I have the skills and make a point of maintaining the situational awareness necessary to keep the situation safe.

This, then, is what it comes down to: A brakeless fixie rider who rides with skill and awareness is *always* going to be safer to himself and the general public than the rider who is unskilled, heavily distracted, intoxicated, or reckless, regardless of the bicycle. The bike itself? It's just not that much a part of the equation.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2007)

As someone who rides several different types of bikes to work (not fixies though) I can tell you that the person most at risk in-town is the bike rider. I can also tell you that urban riders develop a sixth sense about their surroundings. It's true that good brakes are safer, FOR THE BIKE RIDER. They allow you to stop quicker when a car decides to pull out into your path or cut you off. As a result, I make sure my brakes work really well but to each their own.

How many pedestrians to you know that have been seriously injured by a fixie rider?

bm


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

I was irresponsible and rude today and also had a big **** eating grin when I rode this old girl home.

She isn't fixed but she is an SS and my hands kept looking for the brake...









1933 CCM men's coaster bike.


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## gigatech (Jan 2, 2007)

im a little confused, does the original poster talking a bout a bike with no brakes(hand) and its a coaster? or the type that you push the pedals backwards and it stops?

hah my horrible grammar, instead of does I meant is.


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## TimoM (May 8, 2005)

*DeepSouthBuilder*

Hey DeepSouth,

What part of Alabama are you from? Montgomery here.

Timo M


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## juancancook (Aug 30, 2006)

*Former courier here*

Worked for a number of years. First started out on a MTB, went to a road bike, eventually fixed. Had a brake. Cable snapped during work. Went without one ever since. Number of accidents? One in six years. Lady blowing a light stopped in the middle of an intersection. I compensated for her not being there, which meant she should have stayed moving. Didn't think the back end of her Caddy would still be hanging out in my path. Thanks to witnesses, the cop gave her a ticket for running the red and wreckless endangerment. This happened in about 20feet at about 20mph. Having a brake wouldn't have mattered. 
Is riding a track bike without a brake in the city dangerous? Yes, so is riding any bike in the city or a set of tools in the wrong hands. If you know how to ride it, know the subtle weight shifts to load and unload the bike, how to throw a slide when you need to scrub a little speed or come to a dead stop fast, if you know that a 10 dollar lockring won't hold up compared to a Phil Wood or Suntour one. What's really dangerous? Life on two wheels. It's all a risk, but the best risks come calculated. It either adds up for you or it doesn't. Personally, if you want to raise the flag of war, point to the trail poachers and reckless riders in the woods. The ones who ride after a rain. The ones who go into blind turns with their balls to the wall. The one's who burn down fall lines. You know, the one's who cause real damage


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

gigatech, The original post refers to fixed gear bikes that have no auxilliary brakes... they stop just like a coaster bike in that back pedalling causes the bike to stop.

The only front brake I could add to the old CCM without redesigning the frame would be a front mounted drum brake.


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## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*No, you are in error..*



Sixty Fiver said:


> gigatech, The original post refers to fixed gear bikes that have no auxilliary brakes... they stop just like a coaster bike in that back pedalling causes the bike to stop.
> 
> The only front brake I could add to the old CCM without redesigning the frame would be a front mounted drum brake.


A fixie bike has no brakes. nada, nothing. The rear hub does not coast, the cog is screwed onto the hub with no freewheel. Stopping is acheived by reverse torque on the pedals, i.e. holding the the pedal back with your legs so forward motion is retarded; it's an aquired talent and one (coming from long time fixie rider) you shouldn't bet you life on in the street. A front brake for me (the right front lever is a dummy).

Another way to look at it is using a reversed disc hub. You get the same effect by using a rear cog drilled to bolt on to the disc side of a disc brake. Since most fixie bikes aren't set up for a rear bike, the fact you are limited to rim brack would not be an issue.

fixie: no coasting and no brakes; and you call this fun????

1G1G, Brad


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

Brad - How am I in error ?.

I guess I could have clarified things but I figured the concept of how a fixed gear works has been well established... I know they don't coast and have no real brake unless a front brake is also mounted.

Coaster brakes and fixies both stop by applying the same kind of backpedalling force although backpedalling on a coaster engages an actual mechanical brake that stops a bike about as well as a good rider can on a fixed gear without any type of mechanical brake. 

As far as braking ability goes, both systems are inferior to quality rim or disc brakes and should not be used alone.

There was also an earlier comment about banning coaster bikes due to their inefficient braking ability so I decided to post my new find.

In my opinion, both designs should have an auxiliary brake and on my old CCM there is no way to install a rim brake without modifying the frame with brake bosses and replacing the vintage wheels with a wheel that will work with a rim brake.

If I could find a vintage drum brake equipped front wheel for the old girl I'd consider using it if only to have a backup as brake or chain failure could be catastrophic. Coaster brakes can also generate enough heat to cook any kind of grease if they are subjected to prolonged use and in that respect, a fixed gear has much better braking abilities.


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## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*Sorry..*



Sixty Fiver said:


> Brad - How am I in error ?.
> 
> I guess I could have clarified things but I figured the concept of how a fixed gear works has been well established... I know they don't coast and have no real brake unless a front brake is also mounted.
> 
> ...


I forgot to add at the top,"..or you're just putting us on"


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

aka brad said:


> ........
> 
> fixie: no coasting and no brakes; and you call this fun????
> 
> 1G1G, Brad


Yup. :thumbsup:

I need to learn how to do this, so I can be super rude and irresponsible: YouToube Clip


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## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*Oh go ahead and try*



G-reg said:


> Yup. :thumbsup:
> 
> I need to learn how to do this, so I can be super rude and irresponsible: YouToube Clip


 I tried to be irresponsible and rude in my last post but it was no fun. Maybe that means I suck on my fixie also.(that could explain why it threw me off the other day).. rft: rft: rft: rft: rft: :


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

brad - I forget to mention that your fixed gear is one beautiful looking machine.

I have a vintage fixed gear project in the shop and figure I'll get the mechanical stuff done in the next couple of weeks and I should have it painted for spring.

Here's to being irresponsible... I don't think there is ever a reason to be rude.


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## sop (May 20, 2006)

"That is why the public has yet to embrace bikes in the US.".

No, I think it's because they're a bunch of fat, lazy, SUV-driving, cellphone-addicted crazies. I really don't think it's because they're afraid of us.


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## jpelaston (Feb 27, 2007)

This thread started as a result of this country's ultra liberal brainwashing education system. The elitist attitude that is portayed is right in line with the Kerry, Klinton, and the Pelosi persona.
Now to the subject at hand. If i am correct, this is the United States of America and if a person wishes to ride a fixed gear bike (with or without brake) he/she is FREE to do so regardless of what general public (pedestrians) and cagers think. I can guarantee you that upon a quick glance an average citizen is not going to notice a fixie any more than a FR bike, UNTIL something bad happens. Now which happens more, a fixie smaking a car or ped. or a FreeRider launching a stair gap or cutting through traffic and disobeying traffic laws right in open view of others??


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

jpelaston said:


> This thread started as a result of this country's ultra liberal brainwashing education system. The elitist attitude that is portayed is right in line with the Kerry, Klinton, and the Pelosi persona.
> Now to the subject at hand. If i am correct, this is the United States of America and if a person wishes to ride a fixed gear bike (with or without brake) he/she is FREE to do so regardless of what general public (pedestrians) and cagers think. I can guarantee you that upon a quick glance an average citizen is not going to notice a fixie any more than a FR bike, UNTIL something bad happens. Now which happens more, a fixie smaking a car or ped. or a FreeRider launching a stair gap or cutting through traffic and disobeying traffic laws right in open view of others??


_This_ would be America, but America is NOT what you think it is.

Your actions WILL be regulated in legislation. That means regulating your bike into oblivion. Some people actually believe that biking is something the American government promotes, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

It is a brave new world. Call a cop, turn a soccor mom in for illegal lane changes. It is YOUR responsibility.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

opinions on blenders wanted.


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## cogswell23 (Apr 24, 2006)

hollister said:


> opinions on blenders wanted.


Get a Waring. It's a single speed! Sturdy, durable. Just like all the bartenders use.


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

cogswell23 said:


> Get a Waring. It's a single speed! Sturdy, durable. Just like all the bartenders use.


Bar blenders suck. If you want to blend, then gas-powered is the only way to go.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

*hmmm*



29Colossus said:


> Bar blenders suck. If you want to blend, then gas-powered is the only way to go.


why do they suck?im kinda diggin the single speed part.

2 stroke or thumper?


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

hollister said:


> why do they suck?im kinda diggin the single speed part.
> 
> 2 stroke or thumper?


I've used a lot of bar blenders in my day, and they just always lack for me. Sure, on some ice they work pretty good, but throw some hard angles at them, and they can really suffer. When you just have to blend all day and all night, you go gas.

With the gas-powered, you just go with something like this.


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## hollister (Sep 16, 2005)

29Colossus said:


> I've used a lot of bar blenders in my day, and they just always lack for me. Sure, on some ice they work pretty good, but throw some hard angles at them, and they can really suffer. When you just have to blend all day and all night, you go gas.
> 
> With the gas-powered, you just go with something like this.


premix or separate oil tank?

my brothers old turbo volvo wont pass smog and he's gonna junk it.im toying with the idea salvaging the motor...hmmm i think its doable


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## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

hollister said:


> premix or separate oil tank?
> 
> my brothers old turbo volvo wont pass smog and he's gonna junk it.im toying with the idea salvaging the motor...hmmm i think its doable


No oil injector, so pre-mix is needed. You can get a Briggs 4-stroke... anything goes.

I would take the Volvo turbo and a exhaust pipe size hose. Hook the hose up to the exhaust of your car... other end to turbo inlet... Maybe weld a blender mount onto the turbo impeller.... have someone work the throttle....

I bet that would blend.

Better yet... put a can of 44k in the Volvo with half a tank of gas. Go get it nice and hot. Have it smog checked. Pass and smile.


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## jpelaston (Feb 27, 2007)

haha I got to use one of those blenders at a NASCAR race at talledega one year... really, really cool. I also like the idea of running the blender right off the discarded turbo.


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## Chequama Mama (Jan 15, 2004)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Chains break pretty often.


Chains break pretty often on geared bikes. I've yet to break a chain on a single (fixed or free)
The chain on my fixie is the stock chain off of the bike I converted (a 1985 Trek 400 Series) The bike was abused in its former life and the chain is all rusted up. In two seasons of more or less regular use I haven't managed to break the chain. Am I doing something wrong?
YO MAMA
sorry, I was having an absurdly good day and this comment seriously cracks me up


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## Sixty Fiver (Apr 10, 2006)

_"Chains break pretty often."_

Strange... I have had few issues with chain breakage in the last 10,000 km or so.

I had an issue with a bad SRAM quicklink a few years ago and that's about all the chain issues I've had and I ride everything from geared roadies, cross bikes, singlespeeds, and vintage one speed cruisers and 3 speeds. Some of the chain is high end and some of it is low end but it all works fine.

I take good care of my chains in that they stay squeaky clean and lubed and get changed before they exhibit a minimum of wear.


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## Irishbuddha (Feb 25, 2004)

*In search of truth in the cat turd*



jpelaston said:


> This thread started as a result of this country's ultra liberal brainwashing education system. The elitist attitude that is portayed is right in line with the Kerry, Klinton, and the Pelosi persona.
> Now to the subject at hand. If i am correct, this is the United States of America and if a person wishes to ride a fixed gear bike (with or without brake) he/she is FREE to do so regardless of what general public (pedestrians) and cagers think. I can guarantee you that upon a quick glance an average citizen is not going to notice a fixie any more than a FR bike, UNTIL something bad happens. Now which happens more, a fixie smaking a car or ped. or a FreeRider launching a stair gap or cutting through traffic and disobeying traffic laws right in open view of others??


I couldn't agree more! In fact, I think all those liberal fixie riders should go to Marti Gras and run down those nasty large body drunks and slow kids because we all now they will grow up to be ill-tempered SUV driving hate mongering buttheads. The single speeders and fixie riders should all unite and do a pre-emptive strike George Bush style and take those SUV loving toads out of the gene pool before the kill one more biker. Let the games begin!

This thread is a hoot. What ever happened to tolerance of others and getting along? There is always a kid that has to go looking for the cat turd in the sand box!


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## zombiekiller (Jan 25, 2007)

I resent the statement that you make in " rider experience has nothing to do with the safety of the equipment" . On the contrary, an experienced fixed gear rider makes the bike inherently SAFER. and experienced fixed gear rider understands that you may not want to go as fast as on a bicycle with two brakes. An experienced rider knows how to stop properly. So the comment can be throw completely out. 

I've been riding fixed gear bicycles in philadelphia for about 5 years. I commute daily. i ride in traffic. I feel i have more control over a fixed gear bicycle than a freewheel bicycle. Why? a simple test. do a trackstand with a freewheel bicycle, without the wheels moving more than one rotation for 5 minutes. chances are you cannot. i can control my speed much better on a fixed gear than on a single speed bicycle. I do believe it is irresponsible to ride either a fixed gear or a coaster brake bike without a front brake if you are not meticulous with your maintenance and have appropriate experience both riding that bicycle and riding in traffic. 

i find it quite amusing that you are college aged ( 18-24) and see yourself as " plenty experienced " in both riding a fixed gear bicycle and in assuming you are an authority on this debate of sorts. Many many many people who ride and have ridden much more than you would not say the same. 

and just fyi, i ride a fixed gear, 46 x 16, with platforms, a brake i never touch, have never had a chain break ( because i maintain my bicycles properly and use a chain appropriate for the task) i also have never felt out of control, and have never been in an accident on a fixed gear riding in an urban setting. 

so slam me all you want, keep your judgements. the simple fact of the matter is, you do not have the experience or the control that riding a fixed gear safely and comfortably takes. the sooner you come to grips with that fact, the sooner you can stop assuming than many many many people in the world can ride better than you and make thier fixed gear more safe than anything you ride.


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## ernesto_from_Wisconsin (Jan 12, 2004)

the other day, i was riding around with one of my 4 year-old chains, and it didn't brake. That chain must have a gazzillion miles on it, and its still not breaking. Must be made of Chain-anium or something fancy like dat.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2007)

zombiekiller said:


> On the contrary, an experienced fixed gear rider makes the bike inherently SAFER.


A rider can not make a bike inherently safe or unsafe. The bike is either inherently safe or unsafe. Who's to say who's a good or bad rider? Your skills don't much matter if the law is written for the average person. Cry me a river.


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## zombiekiller (Jan 25, 2007)

NardoSS said:


> A rider can not make a bike inherently safe or unsafe. The bike is either inherently safe or unsafe. Who's to say who's a good or bad rider? Your skills don't much matter if the law is written for the average person. Cry me a river.


i'm not crying or whining, thanks. by your logic an 8 year old is just as safe on a fixed gear as a 25 year old that has been riding one for 10 years. just like a butter knife, which is normally completely safe, is unsafe in a toddler's hands, a fixed gear, which is completely safe when used properly, is now unsafe under the control of someone who is relatively unexperienced riding one. therefore my opinion that a fixed gear is inherently safe under the control of an experienced, responsible rider will remain the same. where i live there is no law preventing the use of a brakeless fixed gear. so law has no relevance in any argument as it pertains to me, or the riders in my city. also, in some states, a direct drive (fixed gear) rear wheel is considered a brake , as the definition is included in the written law. (nj)

thanks.


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## aka brad (Dec 24, 2003)

*Well lets go to the logical extreme..*



NardoSS said:


> A rider can not make a bike inherently safe or unsafe. The bike is either inherently safe or unsafe. Who's to say who's a good or bad rider? Your skills don't much matter if the law is written for the average person. Cry me a river.


Two weeks ago I was riding to work on my fixed gear as I have done almost everyday for 4 years. It was 6:30 AM and the weather was cool, clear and dry. Unbeknownst to be a 2 ft long fissure had opened up from the recent rains, on a downhill portion where the road narrows and turns to the right (making this fissure almost invisible). As my speed accelerated down the hill to about 15 MPH, my front wheel found the fissure. The fissure ended with a 6 inch step and when I collided with the step, the force almost threw me off the bike. My death grip on the drop bars caused them to slip forward about 10 deg, I was knocked off the saddle, and my right foot pulled out of my clipless pedal. Although I had a front brake, my going down was a forgone conclusion. So what could have saved me? Probably a front shock. So I say in order to have a minimally save bicycle, all should be equipped with front shocks.

1G1G, Brad


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## Obi (Oct 16, 2005)

*Right On Brad..now for one from left field!!*

Eventually it all boils down to rider judgement and experience.

Now, I hope you all get a great laugh outta this:

My wife rides a fixie...

I'm a mechanic at heart, I fix bikes, and she likes to be on top.

     Bwaaaaaaaaa!!!!     

Now back to the serious stuff!


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

I was rude and irresponsible to 650 people at the 12 miles of Hell this past weekend. I was especially rude to 576 of them as they finished behind a ridged fixie that had a flat tire for the last 3 miles. I found that all those people with dual suspension/disc brakes/geared/tubeless tired XC bikes were quite rude to me when they were slowly creeping up hills in their granny gear killing all of my momentum.


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## BigClunke (Aug 12, 2006)

this may have already been brought up, but you know you can just use your foot as a brake by wedging your shoe in between the tire and frame like people who ride brakeless on bmx bikes do in emergency situations. many bmx bikes have been ridden brakeless since the late 90's (as far as I am aware, maybe earlier) I never had a single situation where I would have been safer to pedestrians in a crowded environment. I inevitably put a rear brake on because my fufanus suffered.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

way to revive an old topic. i went ahead and read the first page though. not gonna read any more, so this may have been covered. if the op is too stupid(i think he is) to differentiate between a fixed gear bike and a brakeless fixed gear bike, then there's really no point in argueing with him. it would be like argueing with a rock. he doesn't realize it but his rant(and it was a rant) was about bikes without hand actuated brakes, not fixed gear bikes.


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## GrumpyOne (Jan 7, 2004)

I think the saying goes - "Never argue with an idiot in public. Bystanders may not know who is who." 

jw



sean salach said:


> way to revive an old topic. i went ahead and read the first page though. not gonna read any more, so this may have been covered. if the op is too stupid(i think he is) to differentiate between a fixed gear bike and a brakeless fixed gear bike, then there's really no point in argueing with him. it would be like argueing with a rock. he doesn't realize it but his rant(and it was a rant) was about bikes without hand actuated brakes, not fixed gear bikes.


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## Konish (Dec 26, 2006)

Man, oh, man...I wish I started this thread. I bet DSB is laughing his a$$ off. I especially like the Voltaire part...seriously, I literally laughed out loud when I read it. Pure genius....


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## amishscum (Nov 12, 2006)

All bikes are fun to ride. Too bad fixed gear bikes are really trendy right now. There are a lot of 'em in my city right now. Mostly punks and hipster geeks with super-tight jeans, leather jackets, bad haircuts, and ridiculous sunglasses riding around on mass-produced Bianchi's. It rides the line between funny, sad, and irritating.  

In the near future, flocks of fixie-punks will go back to freewheel-equipped bikes and say they allow the rider to go faster, farther, take turns sharper, and look cooler with all those shiny mechanical adornments. Or maybe they'll stop riding bikes altogether and jump on the next bandwagon... skate-shoes!


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## fluxboy (May 14, 2008)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> I posted this as a response to another thread. I thought it was worthy of it's own discussion. To save myself time I just copied and pasted this since it sums my thoughts up pretty well.
> 
> We just finished Mardi Gras and if there's one thing I learned it's that I don't trust other people very much when I'm on my bike. I brought a bike downtown one day. Children, especially, are retarded around bikes. People run and step backwards all of a sudden and are generally complete unaware of their surroundings. If you don't want the general public to hate bikers as a whole then you are the only one responsible for being in total control. I'm tempted to go as far as to say that you need front and rear brakes when opperating in close proximity to people and cars. I think it's irresponsible and rude if you don't consider other people and other types of bikes in the equation. To the general public we are all just bikers. There are not different categories with different considerations.
> 
> ...


Hmm.

Well, I'm interested in riding a fixie, haven't done so yet, but did convert over to singlespeed recently. So I'll throw in my thoughts:

1) I try not to care about public opinion. That sounds a little juvenile, but as I grow older I realized the best times I had in life were most definitely not in accordance with the values of the majority.

2) I'm unconvinced that brakes make for a safer bicycle. It seems reasonable, whoever can to more can do less sorta thing, but I suspect a skilled rider who takes in his environment knowing that he cannot stop on a dime, will be safer than a common cyclist who looks two feet in front of him.

At least, that would be my hope.

3) See number 1. All the cool stuff in life is found on the fringes. Now, I don't know if fixie's are fringe things anymore, sounds like they sorta went mainstream ... but if it's a fad, it will die out, and those that are attracted to fixed gear riding, whatever the reason, will fade out of the spotlight and enjoy their riding.

4) Fixies are pretty. And the world needs more beauty.


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## hab1b (Jan 15, 2007)

i ride a fixie because its fun. thats my justification. you know who i hate... jesus.


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## croscoe (May 23, 2007)

BigClunke said:


> this may have already been brought up, but you know you can just use your foot as a brake by wedging your shoe in between the tire and frame


This is what I was thinking after reading the first post. It's not the same as a 30 piston caliper grabbing dual 500mm rotors, but it will stop you.


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## fluxboy (May 14, 2008)

Actually, I think Jesus would ride a fixie. I see him on a Bianchi ...


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## gte819s (Aug 13, 2006)

post #200
sweeet.....


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## hab1b (Jan 15, 2007)

yea i actually raced jesus on our fixies, he is a pretty cool dude. he was actually on an IRO Mark V... go figure.


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## KonaEnduroJC (Jan 16, 2005)

jesus rides a highwheel on mescaline.


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## Random Guy (May 17, 2008)

duotone said:


> Actually... I used to race every weekend in my 1970 nova with a Bored out 327 from a stingray Corvette, M21 4-speed, 411 gears and posi.... but I digress, and it was my daily driver even though it did low 13's in the quarter mile.
> 
> And if I had a fixie I'd ride, but ride it like any other bike. Resposibly.
> 
> ...


My Mercedes has 20:1 compression.

Go diesels!


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## singlesteel (Dec 19, 2007)

*quit gettin all butt hurt fixies*

So yeah talk about a whole bunch of pride in this one. Fixies are cool and interesting tools of transpiration, but there's no argument with the creator of this thread. They are rude and irresponsible tools on city roads ect. They do not have brakes and break many state laws. Yea yea yea i know they can still stop, but only with a skilled rider on board do they stop as promptly as a reg bike. It doesn't matter to be honest, because laws represent the basic accepted ethical values of the humans of a cretin society.

Just becuase they are "rude" doesnt mean all of you fixies have to get on here and try to defend your ride. Keep in mind your not the only ones on the road though.

Props for whoever made this thread. And booooo to all the fixies that are gettin all butt hurt on here


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## G-reg (Jan 12, 2004)

Booooo to you for using the term "butt hurt".......and more than once even.


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## ScaryJerry (Jan 12, 2004)

Since when are fixed gears required to not have brakes? I'm pretty sure one of mine has brakes front and rear...


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## deanmachine (Feb 25, 2006)

I was thinking of building a fixed gear.I have a SS 29er and I love it.I was on the Sheldon Brown Website and he felt for road use fixed was way to go.Instead of SS. I 'm going to look around for a suitable steel frame and try it for myself. I'll have at least a front brake. I starting to enjoy bikes that are simple and don't distract you from the ride(like geared bikes).
I race geared mtb's and spend alot more time and money keeping them riding smooth.


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## bstrick (Nov 12, 2005)

Dumbest thread ever. The mere suggestion that all fix riders are irresponsible and careless is just asinine. No further wasting my breath. If you care to criticize, then do your homework. Live it, then come play.


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## dashSC (Jan 27, 2008)

I can understand drivers/pedestrians not feeling as safe if a cyclist is tearing in and out of traffic and obviously has no hand brakes, but to categorize that to all people who ride fixies is just silly. I'm sure there are a lot of 'irresponsible/rude' people on normal bikes too, fixies are just a bit more socially prevalent. It's like saying "all people who drive hybrid cars have poor bathing habits". Sure, it may be true for some, and not for others, but it's also true that some people who drive normal cars have poor bathing habits. They're just drawing attention to a minority for something that affects the whole range of people. But enough people here ride fixies or know somebody who does that it gets blown out of proportion, which is usually the intent anyways.

So yeh, we all know that this is bogus, most people don't agree with this viewpoint, and it really affects nothing in either case. Unless you're one to make a special effort to be courteous to drivers and pedestrians, in which case I salute you.


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## dwnhlldav (Feb 2, 2006)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> BTW I've broken more chains than I can count.


Shifting and suspension brake chains.

Don't know what that has to do with your anti fixie argument?


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## victorthewombat (Jan 12, 2004)

errr this complete argument is specious at best. Fixies should have a front brake 'nuff said. I don't how many ride iterations of "ride" the people who skid down 500-600' hills out of their tires, let alone their knees. 

As for chains, in all my years of road, credit card touring, real touring, mtb and fixie,. I have never seen chains that break all on their own. The 99% plus percent of the time a chain has broken, in my experience, has been because it was incorrectly installed. This percentage (if it can) should be even greater since Shimano has come out with the two part chain pin - thereby making sudden chain separation a problem of the past. Thus, in my experience, the broken chain arguement is a complete fallacy. I have only seen one chain my entire biking career that broke - and that was a SRAM PC-99 that lost a portion of one of its chain plates. which I caught before it broke out on the trail.


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## bstrick (Nov 12, 2005)

Hahahahah.... we're still feeding this pathetic troll. I think he wins.


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## monocognizant (Jul 10, 2007)

DeepSouthBuilder said:


> Good point about crap bikes. I, of course, have no statistics to back this up but I'm willing to bet that a larger percentage of fixie owners commute on their bikes than crappy bike owners. I do believe in minimum standards to be allowed to operate on a city street regardless of what type of bike you have. They have such laws for cars. The minimum standards IMO should be pretty high for everyone's good.
> 
> I've already stated several times that everyone agrees that skidding is bad etiquette.


Now we should ban bike costing less than $2000.00 :madman: I have been reading this post and laughing the whole time. How many times has has Deep South talked about breaking his chain? I've been mountian biking for 15 years and so far, I've broken one chain so I guess I'm just not that cool. Perhaps you should try some maintenance. I think people who show up for a group ride with there equipment not up to par are irrisponsible. Now, I dont ride a fixie and I dont have a freeride bike but, who am I to tell others what they should ride? I don't recall anyone asking for your opinion either. I've seen plenty of irrisponsible cyclists (with brakes) on the road. I don't recall any of them being on fixies. In fact, most were actually teenagers on freeride bikes. Should we ban the bikes or the teenagers?  We could go on and on and on and on here. What about irresponsible drivers? Perahaps we should ban cars on the road. The point here is that we all have a right to ride what we enjoy and just because you cant ride and control a fixie doesn't mean others can't. :thumbsup:


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## fluxboy (May 14, 2008)

Upon further reflection, I have discovered I simply don't care if someone disapproves of how or what I ride.

Sadly, I just don't think one can get too subversive riding a bicycle.

Anyone wanna talk politics? McBush sucks.


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