# Foot fatigue…



## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

Anyone else experience this on their hardtail? I notice it mostly on trails that have a lot of braking bumps, but occasionally when there’s a lot of roots and rocks as well. The bottoms of my feet just start aching— similar to how it feels when using a muscle hard for a long time. I don’t think I’m subconsciously flexing my foot muscles, but I suppose that’s a possibility.

I use pretty big platform pedals and 5.10 Freeriders. The shoes have a fairly thin sole, which might be contributing. I used to have a pair of 5.10 Impacts that seemed to have a meatier sole and don’t remember feeling this — however, I was mostly on full suspension bikes back when I had those shoes.

Any advice/remedies?


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Where do you place the pedal platforms on your feet?


----------



## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Could be pedal shape as well. Some are flat, some are concave and some convex. 

Could be something as simple as arch support from one shoe to another, and as @dysfunction mentioned, where you're placing your foot on the pedals.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

regular freeriders do this to my feet in rough terrain, even on a full suspension. freerider pros do not. 

but I also noticed that pedal size was a factor. not many pedals out there that are "too big" for my size 12 foot, but a whole lot that are too small. I had even more trouble with this when the pedals were narrower than my shoe.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

If I put the spindle more under the ball of my foot (like with concave pedals) I get this, and calf engagement, more than a convex platform putting the spindle further back.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dysfunction said:


> If I put the spindle more under the ball of my foot (like with concave pedals) I get this, and calf engagement, more than a convex platform putting the spindle further back.


now that I think of it more, spindle under the ball of my foot also does it more than a more midfoot placement.

basically, anything that makes the foot flex more (that your muscles then resist in rough terrain) will probably cause it. I put up with it for awhile, but I think that it works tiny muscles in a way that nothing else does, and so "strengthening" those areas to address it is not really a practical solution.


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

Harold said:


> regular freeriders do this to my feet in rough terrain, even on a full suspension. freerider pros do not.
> 
> but I also noticed that pedal size was a factor. not many pedals out there that are "too big" for my size 12 foot, but a whole lot that are too small. I had even more trouble with this when the pedals were narrower than my shoe.


This is my experience as well.

Switched from the Freerider, to Impact Pros, and immediately noticed less foot fatigue. IMO freeriders soles are far too soft.

And I feel the same way about pedals, and I am also a size 12. Currently I'm using Crank Brothers Stamp 3's in size Large, which I think has a better size platform than something like a RaceFace Chester.



Harold said:


> now that I think of it more, spindle under the ball of my foot also does it more than a more midfoot placement.
> 
> basically, anything that makes the foot flex more (that your muscles then resist in rough terrain) will probably cause it. I put up with it for awhile, but I think that it works tiny muscles in a way that nothing else does, and so "strengthening" those areas to address it is not really a practical solution.


And this as well.

I generally place the pedal spindle between the middle of my arch, and the ball of my foot, if that helps. Anything farther forward, and I get foot, or calf fatigue on longer/rougher downhills.

If you look at photos of Sam Hill, you'll see that his foot is very "midfoot" as well. So I'd guess thats probably "correct" flat pedal technique.


----------



## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

I’m using Twenty6 pedals which have a very flat profile (not convex or concave). I ride with a pretty “mid” placement normally, so the axle is behind the ball of my foot. The pedals are pretty big, and I wouldn’t want to go bigger. In any case, I’ve been on his pedals since they came out — I don’t think they’re to blame.

Also, I have the same pedals on my enduro bike and on the really brake bumpy trails, it still happens, though not quite as bad.

I think what y’all are saying about the Freeriders is probably it —just too soft/thin in the sole. These are about three seasons old so I’ll probably retire them and go for some stouter shoes for next season.


----------



## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

ocnLogan said:


> I generally place the pedal spindle between the middle of my arch, and the ball of my foot, if that helps. Anything farther forward, and I get foot, or calf fatigue on longer/rougher downhills.
> 
> If you look at photos of Sam Hill, you'll see that his foot is very "midfoot" as well. So I'd guess thats probably "correct" flat pedal technique.


The guide I've taken to using is putting the front edge of the pedal near the ball of my foot. maybe a touch forward of the ball. going more midfoot than that seems to encourage the whole pedal rollover thing. and it seems to support the whole foot well.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

I have this issue with flat pedals, because I can't find any flat pedal shoes with a stiff enough sole under the arch. It is the main reason I have not made the switch full time to flats. I have a set of teva hiking shoes with a stiff shank starting just behind the ball of my foot going back, and I have no issues with my foot aching, but they are not the best in terms of grip. I use them for gravel biking, but they just don't cut it for trail riding.

What does help me a lot is a longer pedal that comes farther back on my foot. This is a big reason I like the Deity Deftrap pedals. Since they do not have the beveled leading and trailing edges, the platform extends further back from the spindle, thus making them "feel" longer.

And like others have suggested, moving my foot forward also helps.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

cookieMonster said:


> I think what y’all are saying about the Freeriders is probably it —just too soft/thin in the sole. These are about three seasons old so I’ll probably retire them and go for some stouter shoes for next season.


If this is new issue, I'd put money on this. Same as failing running shoes it would seem.


----------



## Steel-Onions (Sep 3, 2021)

I had the same problem with the freeriders, got a stiffer soled shoe (Crankbrothers Stamp) 
and my issues disappeared


----------



## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

dysfunction said:


> If this is new issue, I'd put money on this. Same as failing running shoes it would seem.


Now that I think about it — it really has been noticeable since I got the shoes, just more noticeable in the last couple seasons because I’ve been riding a hardtail about 50% of the time. Gonna try some new ones.👍. They don’t even have to be 5.10s necessarily. I wouldn’t mind a little “less” grip, honestly. With the sharpened pins I have, I cannot move my feet without pulling them off the pedals.🤣


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

cookieMonster said:


> Now that I think about it — it really has been noticeable since I got the shoes, just more noticeable in the last couple seasons because I’ve been riding a hardtail about 50% of the time. Gonna try some new ones.👍. They don’t even have to be 5.10s necessarily. I wouldn’t mind a little “less” grip, honestly. With the sharpened pins I have, I cannot move my feet without pulling them off the pedals.🤣


Now that I think about it, my main issues with freeriders started about 2-3 seasons in as well. Of course, I was a new rider at the beginning, so I just chalked up the increased fatigue at the end of the time as me being faster/more aggressive. But it could be just the shoes had gotten softer with age.

You might try the Ride Concept Shoes. I hear they're a smidge less grippy, but they also seem to be more robust in the sole. Plus their last years models are on sale. I've actually been thinking of picking up a pair as they're just so cheap.









Sale


Ride Concepts sale for men's, women's, and youth mountain bike shoes.




rideconcepts.com


----------



## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

While we're on the subject, another issue I'd be interested in addressing is the tendency of 5.10s to stay wet for a long time after being exposed to water. There is one trail I ride where I have to cross an irrigation ditch, and my feet almost always get soaked. Then the 5.10s hold all that water for the rest of the ride -- and have to sit out in the sun for a long time to finally dry out. They even hold the moisture when brushing past wet leaves/foliage and just seem to retain that water...


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I've been digging the RC Hellions, but I have no idea how quickly they dry. The soles are stiffer than the 5.10s.

Last years model too.


----------



## ocnLogan (Aug 15, 2018)

cookieMonster said:


> While we're on the subject, another issue I'd be interested in addressing is the tendency of 5.10s to stay wet for a long time after being exposed to water. There is one trail I ride where I have to cross an irrigation ditch, and my feet almost always get soaked. Then the 5.10s hold all that water for the rest of the ride -- and have to sit out in the sun for a long time to finally dry out. They even hold the moisture when brushing past wet leaves/foliage and just seem to retain that water...


I live in the PNW, and this was a major problem with the Freeriders that I didn't really think about until after I stopped using them. I had some rides where the water would squish up between my toes, and waterproof socks became an important part of my riding kit. In fact, after rides I would literally stick the nozzle of the leaf blower in the shoes for a minute or so to get the bulk of the water out, before bringing them inside to dry off on the heat vents.

Surprisingly, the Impact Pros are way, way better in this regard. Their upper isn't mesh, and instead is more of a synthetic rubbery/leather. They're not waterproof, but I can say I noticed a very dramatic difference in how wet my feet were, and how long the shoes took to dry compared to the freeriders. So much that I wouldn't even really say that my impact pros really got "wet". That should mean that they are warmer... but for some reason I haven't really noticed that being a problem, if that matters to you.


----------



## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

^^^I don't really notice my feet getting hot when I ride. I'm sure they are, I just don't notice it. I just hate the feeling of soggy feet...


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

It could not hurt to strengthen your feet. The muscles in most people's feet are atrophied from wearing stiff, restrictive shoes all the time. There's a ton of stuff out there about getting stronger soles. I do these every day.


----------



## ianick (Jul 10, 2006)

My feet go numb or get sore if I wear freeriders(canvas) while riding my carbon hard tail. However, they do not have any problems on the steel hard tail. My fix is to wear Impact’s while riding the carbon bike. Makes the problem disappear. Have thought about swapping pedals between bikes to see if that helps, but have not gotten around to it yet. The carbon has burgtec penthouse pedals and the steely has Deity bladerunners.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

mack_turtle said:


> It could not hurt to strengthen your feet. The muscles in most people's feet are atrophied from wearing stiff, restrictive shoes all the time. There's a ton of stuff out there about getting stronger soles. I do these every day.


Big difference between walking around in stiff shoes, and hitting hard drops though.

edit: fwiw I run in zero drop shoes, and have plenty of minimalist pairs, but also have high arches.


----------



## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

mack_turtle said:


> It could not hurt to strengthen your feet. The muscles in most people's feet are atrophied from wearing stiff, restrictive shoes all the time. There's a ton of stuff out there about getting stronger soles. I do these every day.


Most likely right in my case. I have flat feet. I did put Superfeet insoles in my Freeriders. Also, some of the trails I ride require steep hiking to get to the top, which does work my foot muscles. What all do you do to strengthen your feet, if you don’t mind sharing?


----------



## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

cookieMonster said:


> What all do you do to strengthen your feet, if you don’t mind sharing?


Look up "foot intrinsic" exercises and "toe yoga." Katy Bowman has a lot of great materialon this stuff. You can strengthen your ankles by one-leg balancing on a soft surface like a folded towel or an inflatable disc. Massage the sole by standing on a lacrosse ball.

I've used a support insole only when I absolutely needed it, but wear minimal footwear (flat, wide, and flexible) when I need to and barefoot around the house. Bike-specific sneakers for riding as protection.

I used to have flat feet and plantar fasciitis and the stuff above is how I fixed them. PF creeps back in when I start to slack off.


----------



## midbikecrisis (Nov 23, 2021)

I assume you’ve tried with and without the insoles? I’m a little surprised that wasn’t the answer.

I have freeriders too. I haven’t noticed the thinness of the sole so much, but I did notice that the sole is nearly completely flat. I have flexible/flattish feet; for me putting insoles in was more of a pedaling mechanics thing*, but I’d be suspicious of the shoes notable flatness as the source of other issues too. 

*I’ve never thought I needed insoles before this shoe. Most athletic shoes are fine for me. But these are more like mutant vans than a running shoe. I have flip flops with more arch support. In this case, I think the insole is more of a cue than a literal support. By angling the footbed out a bit, I think I naturally weight the outsides of my feet more. This really changes how my ankles/knees snap into alignment.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

I ordered and tried on impact pros, freeride pros, and Hellions. Went with the Hellions because they were the stiffest soles (and less bulky) but they are no more stiff than most of my sneakers. They are stiffer than my Vans, but those are like moccasins.


----------



## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

Yeah, I get sore soles from time to time. Using five ten freeriders. It doesn't help that I have a 30-degree metatarsal arch (typical is 15 degrees). This usually crops up during and after particularly rocky trails. It hasn't reached a point where I'm worried about it yet, but at some point I feel that I'll have to address it. I usually take neighborhood walks barefoot so long as it isn't the dead of summer, I suppose that may help to some degree. 

I've had PF before, and also a crazy central connective tissue stretch/tear condition that required 6+ months of no real activity, and cortisone shots down through the top of the foot to fix it (if you ever feel tough, have this done and see how it feels). That was about 20 years ago though, and nothing notable since, so I guess I'm doing something right, or at least not terribly wrong.


----------



## stripes (Sep 6, 2016)

cookieMonster said:


> I’m using Twenty6 pedals which have a very flat profile (not convex or concave). I ride with a pretty “mid” placement normally, so the axle is behind the ball of my foot. The pedals are pretty big, and I wouldn’t want to go bigger. In any case, I’ve been on his pedals since they came out — I don’t think they’re to blame.
> 
> Also, I have the same pedals on my enduro bike and on the really brake bumpy trails, it still happens, though not quite as bad.
> 
> I think what y’all are saying about the Freeriders is probably it —just too soft/thin in the sole. These are about three seasons old so I’ll probably retire them and go for some stouter shoes for next season.


Oh geez. With my hip (right side) ankle, and knee (left side), i found myself also with fatigue, but mine was in my left knee and right hip. I ended up doing two things this season:
1. going to freerider pros, which was a good start, but it was still killing my hips. I was on Daggas for a year, which are perfect for my wide feet, but I got tired of the hip spams and being in PT. 
2. Switching to the Catalyst pedal. While I’d prefer they’re wider for a better Q factor for me, my hip pain riding is getting reduced, and hopefully will be eventually something I don’t cringe about every time i go riding. 

I really tried riding with the ball of the foot on the pedal, but with my flat feet (especially left), it was killing me. I comfortably ride mid foot now, and not as fatigued riding even after a full day of DH. 

Some of us have physical limitations from injuries, others have different strengths, and sometimes the industry wants us to think there’s only one way to do things. cookieMonster: hope you get this figured out!


----------



## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

I associate foot fatigue 1-to-1 with soft-soled shoes. Nothing else correlates so closely.
I never get it with stiff shoes.
I have to think there is a grippy, yet stiff shoe out there.

-F


----------



## SSsteel4life (Jul 1, 2016)

As others have said, I have less problem with stiffer shoes. But one recent change I was not expecting was pedals. I have been on the composite platform bandwagon, mainly due to the aspect of better deflection aspect when striking pedal on objects. Also always assume may give a little more compliance to my ankles being composite compared to metal. Then I splurged on a pair of the Canfield pedals. I was afraid of taking more of a beating on ankles. But the opposite happen, most comfortable pedal I have ridden and with being stiffer really like the more response I get when putting pedal strokes in going up hills or going over hard technical features. Also foot pain is less as well when combo with my stiffer shoes.

One other thing I want to try, one of my local bike shop bike fitter professional does custom cut shoe insoles taking into biking aspect. People local that tried says make world of difference.


----------

