# cornering technique?



## bernside (Oct 18, 2009)

I am looking for advice for getting through very sharp corners quickly on tight singletrack.

Right now I feel like I either slow down way too much and then have to exert a lot of effort to get back up to speed after the apex or the front end starts to slide on me. I have wrecked a few times and it hurts!

Should I be putting more or less weight on the front to get more traction? other advice?

The bike is a cannondale F6 hardtail with a cheapo Dart2 fork and CST COMP Caballaro tires.

The trails are in Eastern NC so they are relatively flat, in wooded areas where wet and leaves and sand are the main cornering concerns. I am trying to average 8-10 mph through these sections.

I know that a better fork or tires with bigger knobs would probably help but I am more interested in improving my technique than just buying stuff (read I am poor and cheap too ).

Thanks for the advice.

-cgb


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## CaveGiant (Aug 21, 2007)

Without more info it is hard to say,

However a basic but not alwys known tip for getting traction on corners is have all your weight on your outside pedal.


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## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*Some great advice*



bernside said:


> I am looking for advice for getting through very sharp corners quickly on tight singletrack.
> 
> Right now I feel like I either slow down way too much and then have to exert a lot of effort to get back up to speed after the apex or the front end starts to slide on me. I have wrecked a few times and it hurts!
> 
> ...


Use the Search in the Beginner's Corner and you'll find a lot of good information on proper cornering techniques...


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## emtnate (Feb 9, 2008)

Do you see other riders taking the same corners with greater speed? I have a hard time maintaining traction through tight corners when the trails are covered with wet leaves. If your front end is sliding out, you can shift yourself to put more weight on the front tire. 

Remember that the laws of physics set a speed limit around corners before you loose friction.


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## PscyclePath (Aug 29, 2007)

"Countersteering" may be what you're looking for here... First of all, NO BRAKES! As you approach the corner, "twitch" your handlebars to the opposite direction that you want to turn... for example, if you are going to turn right, twitch the bars slightly to the left, which causes your bike to lean to the right. As soon as you feel the bike start to lean, put your outside pedal all the way down with some weight on it to help you maintain traction, tuck your inside elbow in to make the bike carve into the turn, and look up and out at the line you want to follow. This last is important, since your bike is going to go where you're looking.

This works well on the road and dry trail; where you've got traction problems (wet leaves, mud, wet trail) you will likely want to bleed off a little speed before starting your turn. Just be sure to lay off the brakes while you're turning... 

Practice this at first, slowly in a parking lot, then as you get the hang of it, you can add a little speed and hit the trails. With a little practice, you can turn that bike in a whole lot shorter space than you can stop it...


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## traffic002 (Dec 16, 2008)

So what the OP is describing is not a high speed corner. It is relatively a slow-medium speed corner. 

Braking correctly will be crucial.

First off, I would look at checking your speed before entering the corner to get a feel for how fast you can go and maintain traction. This way, you are not dabbing your brakes mid or late in the corner scrubbing off too much speed. Also remember that the very act of cornering scrubs off speed.

How you are weighted (front/rear) impacts your traction. Not enough traction in the front (like if you are scared of crashing, which is a very healthy fear) could be induced by having too much weight to the rear...unweighting the front. Gotta find that balance point.

I have a habit (good or bad...not sure) of braking before a corner, then I'll release the front and use my rear brakes to shift my weight forward or backward as needed. I don't skid the back tire through the corner. Just enough tap to put a touch more weight on the front bars.

Apexing the corner properly is another way to increase the radius you are taking.

Also figure out if the corner is an entry corner or exit corner. On entry corners, there isn't much of a straight after the corner so you can brake late, increasing the time you are at the higher speed. You can sacrifice a bit of mid-corner or exit speed to maximize the higher speed before the corner. On exit corners, you want to make sure you set up the entry and mid corner to have the highest velocity coming out of the corner before a straight section.

But generally, you just want to keep as much momentum as possible since we don't have an endless stamina and each acceleration run has a price to be paid.

Just remember a brake dab mid-corner or near the end because your ran out of room will cost you big time corner after corner. Slow down initially and gradually increase your speed.


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## traffic002 (Dec 16, 2008)

BTW, I have CST Cabelleros that I use during the summer. And I suppose you can get more terrain/weather specific tires for the conditions. But they are good all around tires for what you describe. I would work more on technique. Once the technique is very good, then up the ante with tires and fork.

A new fork with bigger stanchions will be stiffer and allow for more accuracy and feel of what the front end is doing. And terrain specific tires will increase your traction.


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## Guy Cool (Oct 3, 2008)

Wider tires help too; 2.25 - 2.35 are great for xc


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## BetterRide (Apr 6, 2004)

Wow, there is so much to cornering, body position, vision, braking, hips, lean angle counter pressure .... I spend 3 hours in my camps on cornering with riders who are already pro racers, in the parking lot! The written word is a tough way to learn any physical skill but the biggest mistake I used to make and see most riders of all level doing is looking at the apex of the corner as they enter it. The vision goal in cornering is to look 30 feet past the exit of the corner or as far as you can if you see that far. Looking past the exit will make the corner feel much bigger and give you the correct lean angle from the beginning (so you don't make 2-3 "adjustments" throughout the corner) you will also find yourself getting off the brakes sooner by looking through. The second biggest mistake riders make is going into the corner too fast and braking in the corner. Unless your goal is to slide the rear tire and square off the corner do all of your braking before the corner and let off before you start the turn. 

I hope that helps but, again, the written word stinks for learning physical skills, no one ever became a black belt by reading a book (books are great for learning knowledge, in sport knowledge is worthless without action) knowing something and being able to do it or two distinctly different things.


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## xenon (Apr 16, 2007)

Cornering depends very much on the traction. The steeper the incline and looser the surface, the less leaning you can afford, without risk of wash out. 
What I do, is taking the turn as wide as possible. On a tight single track there is not much width to take advantage of, but every centimeter counts. That is, say, turning left, I move to the right first, then aim at the corner and proceed crossing the path to the right again, increasing the radius of turn. Also, I lower the inside shoulder (on tarmac, you may also stick the inside knee out, moving inside as much weight as possible).


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

Practice practice practice. Not all corners are the same. Become familiar with the trail and ride over and over and over. Then spend more time on the more technical turns if any are still fowling you up (or your just not satisfied) and do each one individually over and over....etc. This will improve your technique & balance and you'll learn the limits of your bike, the trail, and yourself. Cannondale f-series is a good bike. One of my coworkers has over 12,000 miles on his.

Yes crashing hurts, but its going to happen. Don't be concerned with speed. Speed will come with practice. Keep in mind 99% of mt bikers dont race. Most ride cuz they enjoy the challenge. Wear your safety gear and keep practicing.


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## heff® (Feb 10, 2004)

Around here, I just bunnyhop and throw the bike sideways. Oddly enough, it works.

Agreed on countersteering. Briefly shifting the bike outwards, then into the turn with a ton of pressure on the outside pedal makes the tires "bite" into the turn better. Should be a pretty much natural reaction anyway, you want your inside pedal up and away from the ground anyway. Just fine-tune that. Might take you a few tries (I know I faceplanted a half dozen times learning that) but once you get it, you'll do it fairly naturally every time.


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## sanjuro (Sep 29, 2004)

PscyclePath said:


> "Countersteering" may be what you're looking for here... First of all, NO BRAKES! As you approach the corner, "twitch" your handlebars to the opposite direction that you want to turn... for example, if you are going to turn right, twitch the bars slightly to the left, which causes your bike to lean to the right. As soon as you feel the bike start to lean, put your outside pedal all the way down with some weight on it to help you maintain traction, tuck your inside elbow in to make the bike carve into the turn, and look up and out at the line you want to follow. This last is important, since your bike is going to go where you're looking.
> 
> This works well on the road and dry trail; where you've got traction problems (wet leaves, mud, wet trail) you will likely want to bleed off a little speed before starting your turn. Just be sure to lay off the brakes while you're turning...





CaveGiant said:


> Without more info it is hard to say,
> 
> However a basic but not alwys known tip for getting traction on corners is have all your weight on your outside pedal.


Both of these tips should be rewritten before following them.

First of all, it is ok to use the brakes but when you are turning, specifically leaning your bike in a turn, you could lose tire traction and slip out. Beginners also may panic brake, grabbing the brake levers too hard and locking up the wheels, which will likely lead to a crash during a turn.

Beginners are usually advised to do their braking before the turn, while the bike is upright and you have maximum contact patch with the tires. If you do need to brake in a turn, using the rear brake is less likely to affect your steering. A slightly more advanced technique in a turn is to reduce lean when you brake, which will increase your contact patch and traction. Straight up for a moment, slow down, then continue turning.

As for putting all your weight on one pedal, how, and more importantly, when to do it is critical.

A traditional cornering technique is to raise the inside foot and lower the outside, which would put your weight on the outside foot. But many mountain bikers avoid this technique because you could clip a rock or root with the lower foot. They corner with both feet level in most situations.

You can still lower your outside foot on turns, just on open trails where your foot is not going to hit something.

Countersteering is taught to motorcycle riders as a way to steer a heavy bike at high speeds. However, it does apply to bicycles but in the 20 years I have ridden mountain and road, I have never heard this term, mostly because steering is very intuitive on a 25lb vehicle going 10-20mph.

What is more helpful is shifting your body weight to the inside of your turn without leaning the bike as much.

Your traction comes from the contact patch of the tire with the ground. Hypothetically, let's say on level ground, you lean the bike to 45 degrees to make a right turn. You will lose contact on the knobs on the left side of the tire, and if you lose enough contact, you will slip out.

But if you can keep your bike more upright, and let's say you only lean over 5 degrees, then you have almost all the knobs contacting the ground, and you have maximum traction.

The way you can do this is shifting your body weight to the inside of the turn without leaning the bike as much.

On a bicycle, I find I start bending over at the waist and letting my head lean into the turn. Where my head goes, my body follows.

I also get out of the saddle, but unlike the classic beginner tip, get your weight back, I actually keep it centered between the wheels. I am able to shift my weight around easier than having my butt planted on the saddle. You also want to keep some weight on the front wheel to maintain traction, which is the opposite of "Get your weight back".


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## ireland57 (Sep 11, 2009)

Every corner is different.
Brake before the corner until you get the hang of cornering then learn to brake in it as well.

This old motor racing adage is accurate across all forms of wheeled sports (for many corners, but not all) :- "Slow in, fast out". The opposite obviously is fast in, slow out.

It's saying :- Brake early enough to cleanly enter and exit the corner on your chosen line and have it in the correct gear when you do it and you'll be well on the way to a quick run out of the corner.

Late braking and trying to squeeze, brake, fiddle, steer, balance and "ohhh,foook" your way into a corner means you'll dawdle out. There's no ifs and buts about it.

Braking in some corners is a necessity but takes some learning.

Squeezing the brake levers, not grabbing them makes braking smoother and settles the bike, tyres and rider more than jamming them on.

Tyres like consistent movement (i.e. not jerky) to gain grip most of the time.

I apply what I learned from karts and motorcycles and use it all the time on the bike.
It works well.


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## bernside (Oct 18, 2009)

Thanks for the advice guys. I know a bit about cornering technique and practices from riding motorcycles as far as braking, apexing, leaning into the turn, etc. 

The thing I never worried much about on a street bike is fore-aft positioning because rider weight is much less of a factor on a heavy motorcycle than on a bicycle (At least fore-aft, not side to side).

I am sure that I need to work on my braking technique. I think I am using both brakes about evenly, I need to start thinking about what each one is doing. 

And I think practice is probably the best advice. I can handle the corners fine at a more moderate pace but I am trying to push things and this is my weakness. I ride with a guy who races expert class and when the trail gets really tight is where he leaves me behind. He has been riding long enough that it is just natural and hard for him to articulate what he is actually doing.

Every time I ride I get better. That is part of the fun.

-cgb


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## sanjuro (Sep 29, 2004)

On the road, whether I am sitting on my SV650 or my road bike, I use 90% front brake. 

Off road, I use 50/50. You need to know when and how to apply the brakes, but I think you will be able to figure it otu.

But if you are talking about keeping up with an Expert class racer, you need a better bike and more experience. No short cuts there.


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## bernside (Oct 18, 2009)

sanjuro said:


> On the road, whether I am sitting on my SV650 or my road bike, I use 90% front brake.
> 
> Off road, I use 50/50. You need to know when and how to apply the brakes, but I think you will be able to figure it otu.
> 
> But if you are talking about keeping up with an Expert class racer, you need a better bike and more experience. No short cuts there.


Sanjuro - you would not believe it....this guy rides a 1998 cannondale hardtail! for me to keep up with him I would need a motor


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## CoreyBiker (Dec 23, 2009)

These guys have got a great video on how to do this stuff


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## PscyclePath (Aug 29, 2007)

traffic002 said:


> First off, I would look at checking your speed before entering the corner to get a feel for how fast you can go and maintain traction. This way, you are not dabbing your brakes mid or late in the corner scrubbing off too much speed. Also remember that the very act of cornering scrubs off speed.
> 
> ...
> Just remember a brake dab mid-corner or near the end because your ran out of room will cost you big time corner after corner. Slow down initially and gradually increase your speed.


Exactly... A braked wheel wants to go straight, not turn. And controlling your speed helps you maintain traction in slick/slippery places, and not skid or wash the bike out from under you.

The countersteering (or "quick turn") technique will help you turn better in tight places. But a lot is going to depend on the ground where you're trying to do it... :nono:


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## BetterRide (Apr 6, 2004)

sanjuro said:


> Both of these tips should be rewritten before following them.
> Beginners are usually advised to do their braking before the turn, while the bike is upright and you have maximum contact patch with the tires. If you do need to brake in a turn, using the rear brake is less likely to affect your steering. A slightly more advanced technique in a turn is to reduce lean when you brake, which will increase your contact patch and traction. Straight up for a moment, slow down, then continue turning ....
> 
> ...also want to keep some weight on the front wheel to maintain traction, which is the opposite of "Get your weight back".


Wow, this is interesting advice. First a little on my background so you know where I am coming from. I have spent the last 15 years racing in the pro downhill class and the last 12 years coaching mountain bikers and one of the biggest things I have studied is cornering. I have coached some of the fastest US racers and worked with Greg Minnaar and Marla Streb as assistant coaches.

First off I completely agree with the last paragraph, "get your weight back" is horrible advice causing you to get out of a balanced, neutral position and often causing the front tire to push in a turn.

I disagree with a few of your statements though (not saying they are wrong, just saying I disagree, opening up discussion, not attacking you)

"Countersteering .... because steering is very intuitive on a 25lb vehicle going 10-20mph."

Having taught over 1,500 riders of all levels I have not seen this to be intuitive, most riders when wanting to tighten up a turn will steer into the turn, the exact opposite of what you want to do.

"What is more helpful is shifting your body weight to the inside of your turn without leaning the bike as much.

Your traction comes from the contact patch of the tire with the ground. Hypothetically, let's say on level ground, you lean the bike to 45 degrees to make a right turn. You will lose contact on the knobs on the left side of the tire, and if you lose enough contact, you will slip out.

But if you can keep your bike more upright, and let's say you only lean over 5 degrees, then you have almost all the knobs contacting the ground, and you have maximum traction.

The way you can do this is shifting your body weight to the inside of the turn without leaning the bike as much. "

I believe your traction comes from the down force on your contact patch, keeping your bike upright and shifting your weight to the inside is a recipe for sliding out.

I bring all of this up because I teach counter steering (well actually counter pressure but that is a long story) as it nis really misunderstood, leaning the bike not your body and putting all of your weight on the outside pedal (when your goal is to rail a corner). I also coach to not to lean your head or shoulders in on a turn as it breaks you at the waist taking pressure off the outside pedal and putting weight inside the turn (both causing less downward pressure on your tires). I learned a lot of this cornering technique from Nathan Rennie when he was on Yeti years ago and have since fine tuned it with the help of Greg Minnaar and a lot of the pro racers I coach.

Some of my theories (which I learned from the above riders, snowboard coaching, snowboard coaches, motorcycles coaches, reading books on physics, etc.) are:
1. counter pressure is what makes the bike lean, lean is what makes bike turn
2. the more you lean the bike at any given speed the tighter you will turn, 
3. braking should done before a corner, asking I our tire to both slow us and change direction at the same time is a bad idea
4. we want as much down force on the tires for traction, 
5 to get that down force, if the terrain is smooth where we want to set an edge our outside foot should be down, 
6. if our goal is to keep the tires on the ground through a slower, bumpy corner keep our feet level

Those are some of the cornering pieces (there is actually a lot more) that I have taught to riders of all levels and many top US racers and it seems to being doing well for them.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

> I am sure that I need to work on my braking technique. I think I am using both brakes about evenly, I need to start thinking about what each one is doing.


Yes!!:thumbsup:

My Braking technique:

Maybe this is an advance technique but I typically only use the rear brake UNLESS I feel the rear beginning to lock up. Then I shift my weight backwards and slowly start to apply the front brake. Using front brakes approaching a turn should always be a last resort to control speed. I depend on my front wheel mainly to control direction and only as supplemental stopping power when necessary. Turning and front wheel braking should be avoided.


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## BetterRide (Apr 6, 2004)

6bobby9 said:


> Yes!!:thumbsup:
> 
> My Braking technique:
> 
> Maybe this is an advance technique but I typically only use the rear brake UNLESS I feel the rear beginning to lock up. Then I shift my weight backwards and slowly start to apply the front brake. Using front brakes entering a turn should always be a last resort to control speed. I depend on my front wheel mainly to control direction and only as supplemental stopping power when necessary. Turning and front wheel braking should be avoided.


Wow, the advice is interesting and goes against everything I teach. Again I mean what I say in the nicest way, I am not trying to start a web fight with anyone, just trying to use my years of coaching and racing experience to help others, for free.

Please do your braking in a straight line and release your brakes as/before your start your turn. If you are braking in a turn you are costing yourself exit speed, loss of traction and risking crashing. Shifting your weight back and using your front brake in a turn is not an advanced technique, it is poor technique and likely to get somebody hurt. If you are breaking in a corner you need to go into the corner slower or learn to corner better. I made this mistake (coming in fast, braking in the corner and coming out slow) for the first 5 years of my pro career, please don't repeat my mistake.


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## sanjuro (Sep 29, 2004)

BetterRide said:


> Wow, this is interesting advice. First a little on my background so you know where I am coming from. I have spent the last 15 years racing in the pro downhill class and the last 12 years coaching mountain bikers and one of the biggest things I have studied is cornering. I have coached some of the fastest US racers and worked with Greg Minnaar and Marla Streb as assistant coaches.


Before we get into a p!ssing contest, I am also a coach in cycling, my third year in the Norcal HS League, and I have 10 years in the criterium circuit as well. Certainly not as storied as your career, but I feel I know something about what I talk about it.

One thing to consider is the forum this thread is in (Beginners) and the kind of riding this person is doing (XC on an entry level hardtail).



> I believe your traction comes from the down force on your contact patch, keeping your bike upright and shifting your weight to the inside is a recipe for sliding out.
> 
> I bring all of this up because I teach counter steering (well actually counter pressure but that is a long story) as it nis really misunderstood, leaning the bike not your body and putting all of your weight on the outside pedal (when your goal is to rail a corner). I also coach to not to lean your head or shoulders in on a turn as it breaks you at the waist taking pressure off the outside pedal and putting weight inside the turn (both causing less downward pressure on your tires). I learned a lot of this cornering technique from Nathan Rennie when he was on Yeti years ago and have since fine tuned it with the help of Greg Minnaar and a lot of the pro racers I coach.


The only problem with advice is that I think it is very specific, totally dependent on the bank of the turn.

Let's say you follow your advice, and you lean the bike, not the body, and put all your weight on the outside pedal. But the turn is on an off-camber trail with no berm. So even at 90 degrees, the tires have a smaller contact patch than on a level trail, so you lean the bike over to initiate the turn, slip-out.



> Some of my theories (which I learned from the above riders, snowboard coaching, snowboard coaches, motorcycles coaches, reading books on physics, etc.) are:
> 1. counter pressure is what makes the bike lean, lean is what makes bike turn
> 2. the more you lean the bike at any given speed the tighter you will turn,
> 3. braking should done before a corner, asking I our tire to both slow us and change direction at the same time is a bad idea
> ...


I think your advice is excellent, and I plan on using some of it. But not necessarily in this format for beginners.

I like the idea of putting weighing the outside pedal and leaning the bike. And unlike motorcycle riding, you need to keep your body in a position for pedaling, so "off the saddle" leans may not be the fast way to corner.

I am going to try some of the techniques on my next ride.

However, countersteering and beginner mountain biking really don't go together.

I'm working with first year XC riders who got their first taste of dirt in 2009. They are at their limit doing 15mph on open trail.

I am working up to leaning in turns, but what is probably more important is teaching them slow speed turns like switchbacks, which the technique is much different.

My second year riders I am teaching leaning, looking for berms, and I will use your counter-leaning techniques for them.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

BetterRide said:


> Wow, the advice is interesting and goes against everything I teach. Again I mean what I say in the nicest way, I am not trying to start a web fight with anyone, just trying to use my years of coaching and racing experience to help others, for free.
> 
> Please do your braking in a straight line and release your brakes as/before your start your turn. If you are braking in a turn you are costing yourself exit speed, loss of traction and risking crashing. Shifting your weight back and using your front brake in a turn is not an advanced technique, it is poor technique and likely to get somebody hurt. If you are breaking in a corner you need to go into the corner slower or learn to corner better. I made this mistake (coming in fast, braking in the corner and coming out slow) for the first 5 years of my pro career, please don't repeat my mistake.


No offense taken. We are both agreeing on not braking IN the corner. Looking back I did not phrase that correctly. I should have said approaching the turn (I shall edit it), not entering a turn. When I shift my weight back, I'm still on approach, and If I go for my front brake I again am still on approach. I'm no racer, I have no real interest there anymore. 10 years of competitive track and field through my youth kinda wore it out for me. But I do enjoy bombing down the 11,000' mountain in my backyard:thumbsup:


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## BetterRide (Apr 6, 2004)

sanjuro said:


> Before we get into a p!ssing contest, I am also a coach in cycling, my third year in the Norcal HS League, and I have 10 years in the criterium circuit as well. Certainly not as storied as your career, but I feel I know something about what I talk about it.
> 
> Hey, I am definitely not trying to get into a pissing match with anyone. I am just trying to help these beginners riders not learn from the same commonly passed down "wisdom" in cycling that is in correct. I even offer a free mini course (advertised at the top right of this page to help them out).
> 
> ...


Excellent, tell them it works a 100% of the time in all corners (where traction and speed are an issue, switchbacks, as you stated are different.


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## BetterRide (Apr 6, 2004)

6bobby9 said:


> No offense taken. We are both agreeing on not braking IN the corner. Looking back I did not phrase that correctly. I should have said approaching the turn (I shall edit it), not entering a turn. When I shift my weight back, I'm still on approach, and If I go for my front brake I again am still on approach. I'm no racer, I have no real interest there anymore. 10 years of competitive track and field through my youth kinda wore it out for me. But I do enjoy bombing down the 11,000' mountain in my backyard:thumbsup:


Cool! Glad we can have a discussion not an argument. In a straight line breaking is good. In straight line remember that your front brake is 80-100% of your breaking power so it is doing most of the braking, your rear brake is just helping out.


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## sanjuro (Sep 29, 2004)

BetterRide,

I appreciate your comments, particularly the off-camber contact patch and counter-leaning. 

I was thinking that the weighing of the outside pedal is also related to balance. Similar to "Outside leg against the gas tank", by putting weight on the outside pedal, you are also helping to compensate with a weight shift to the inside of the turn as part of the lean. Agree?

BTW, you don't need to name drop. I know Nathan Rennie and Steve Peat too, I didn't mention it because drinking isn't riding.

But your advice is very sound, and you don't need to convince me or anyone else by tales of who uses it. 

I will take what I can from your advice, and that is all you can hope for.


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## JPark (Aug 12, 2009)

BetterRide said:


> Cool! Glad we can have a discussion not an argument. In a straight line breaking is good. In straight line remember that your *front brake is 80-100% of your breaking power *so it is doing most of the braking, your rear brake is just helping out.


In moto(2 & 4 wheel) this is the case. With MTB, the weight distribution(especially downhill) I don't believe this is nearly accurate.


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## heff® (Feb 10, 2004)

JPark said:


> In moto(2 & 4 wheel) this is the case. With MTB, the weight distribution(especially downhill) I don't believe this is nearly accurate.


80% front, yes. A bit less on flats, a bit more on downhill. But never 100%, or we'd all be riding around with just front brakes.


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## BetterRide (Apr 6, 2004)

JPark said:


> In moto(2 & 4 wheel) this is the case. With MTB, the weight distribution(especially downhill) I don't believe this is nearly accurate.


Why? The way I have been taught (and it feels like this when I test it). Is my 30lb bike slows down and my weight wants to go forward putting most of my weight on the front wheel. I have a drill that will prove it that is in my free mini-course.


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## heff® (Feb 10, 2004)

BetterRide said:


> Why? The way I have been taught (and it feels like this when I test it). Is my 30lb bike slows down and my weight wants to go forward putting most of my weight on the front wheel. I have a drill that will prove it that is in my free mini-course.


Right, and you need to correct that overbalance somewhat to keep your rear wheel on the trail. Allowing too much weight to go forward while coming into a turn unweights the rear wheel too much. Sometimes you want to do just that, in a tight corner that might require a rear-end jog to the outside, but for the most part, allowing your weight to hit the front brake so hard that the rear does nothing isn't good.


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## sanjuro (Sep 29, 2004)

In a straight line, as you apply the brakes (either one or both), you will unweigh the rear end and the front brake supplies more and more of the braking power.

You could apply the brakes, do an unintentional stoppie, and not endo and stay in control. 

But there are lots of different scenarios to use one or either brake, which is why we have two.


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## JPark (Aug 12, 2009)

heff® said:


> 80% front, yes. A bit less on flats, a bit more on downhill. But never 100%, or we'd all be riding around with just front brakes.


I was thinking more like 50/50(average)
Maybe it's just me(totally possible ) but I find myself replacing brake pads in sets, or rear only, in most cases.


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## BetterRide (Apr 6, 2004)

sanjuro said:


> BetterRide,
> 
> I appreciate your comments, particularly the off-camber contact patch and counter-leaning.
> 
> ...


Glad you are enjoying this, sometimes things sound harsh on the internet with no tone of voice.
According to motorcycle coach Danny Walker of American Super Camps. You push with your knee for a number of reasons but as for as weight distribution he talks about putting all of your weight on top of the motorcycle (or the outside of it, he say weight to the inside is what makes you slide out). The knee on the gas tank helps lean the bike and keep your body on top of the bike.

Not sure your exact definition of, "helping to compensate with a weight shift to the inside of the turn as part of the lean." It gets a little complicated here with exact definitions. Weight to the inside relative to what? Since my body will lean a little (but not near to the degree my bike does) every part of my body as I get higher (knee, then hips, then chest, then head) gets a little more in than my outside foot but my weight is most on my outside foot and a little on my inside hand.


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## De La Pena (Oct 7, 2008)

BetterRide said:


> sometimes things sound harsh on the internet with no tone of voice.


True that! Which is why we have these to help visualize the tone. :madmax: :thumbsup: :madman: :nono: 



> In straight line remember that *your front brake is 80-100% of your breaking power* so it is doing most of the braking, your rear brake is just helping out.


We will just not see eye to eye here..... free mini course lesson or not. Where I ride I'd have killed myself several hundred times since 1992 if I relied that much on my front brake. My terrain is made of rocky and sandy downhills in the New Mexico desert. Closest comparison would be: Think dirt on a sidewalk.

Maybe your statement should read "on a perfectly level trail with matching tires, in a straight line, while in the saddle, your front brake could provide up to 80% of your stopping power."

In other words on "the street".

.


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## Brodino (Sep 15, 2008)

This is one of the more informative discusions I have seen on this board on cornering.
I will definately try and apply these techniques as this is a weak point in my riding.

Thanks Sanjuro and BetterRide :thumbsup:


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## six foot sloth (Nov 30, 2009)

ok, so the official consensus is 

#1. you should lean your weight in to the turn but try to keep your bike up right for better traction.

#2. You should lean you bike in to the turn and try to as as upright and put as much pressure as possible on your out side pedal for the best traction?


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## One Pivot (Nov 20, 2009)

6bobby9 said:


> We will just not see eye to eye here..... free mini course lesson or not. Where I ride I'd have killed myself several hundred times since 1992 if I relied that much on my front brake. My terrain is made of rocky and sandy downhills in the New Mexico desert. Closest comparison would be: Think dirt on a sidewalk.
> 
> Maybe your statement should read "on a perfectly level trail with matching tires, in a straight line, while in the saddle, your front brake could provide up to 80% of your stopping power."
> 
> ...


your front brake does provide almost all of the stopping power. if you cant safely use your front brake, which in many situations you cant, you lose most of your stopping power!

your front brake is critical, even in the steepest, rockiest terrain. learning front brake control is incredibly important.


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## heff® (Feb 10, 2004)

six foot sloth said:


> ok, so the official consensus is
> 
> #1. you should lean your weight in to the turn but try to keep your bike up right for better traction.
> 
> #2. You should lean you bike in to the turn and try to as as upright and put as much pressure as possible on your out side pedal for the best traction?


1. Yes, if you're going relatively slow into a tight turn, and need inside clearance.

2. Yes, if you're going into a fast turn that's tight, but has enough clearance to get to the outside of the bend a bit.

There really isn't any one technique that fits all situations. My cornering technique that I use here isn't going to be as effective (or even useful) in Moab. You also have to figure in tire pressure, type of tire, rear suspenion type (for example, a near vertical suspension path won't require you to transfer as much weight to the rear as a suspension path that travels in an arc, your wheelbase gets longer toward the rear as the bike settles into the turn) and the type of terrain. I pay attention to riding technique from guys out west, it may be helpful in a few circumstances, but I LEARN from the guys who train here in the Northeast. Some generalities are the same, but the details on what you need to do are terrain specific.


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## davidarnott (Feb 28, 2007)

*I Question My Judgement*

weighing in here but I've got a few opinions so here goes:

There seems to be four basic static (non pedaling) positions of the pedals when cornering. Assuming a left turn that would be: Left pedal down, right pedal down, left pedal foreward, right pedal forward. A lot of folks are going to be taking tight left turns with the right pedal down, some are going to go in right pedal forward or left pedal forward and only fools like me are ever going to try turning left with the left pedal down.

Nothing has helped my turning more than riding in the tightest possible circles at the slowest possible speeds. I consider it a basic training exercise and and excellent warm up before riding. This exercise has long term benefits as it seems to train the motor memory in the physics of turning so that turning becomes more "automatic" such that you don't have to "think" about what you are doing and can concentrate on other things.

Speaking of concentrating on other things the most important thing you can be concentrating on in a turn is where your eyes are looking and that should be where you want to go. The great turn killer is to fixate on the apex or some obstacle. When you look where you want to go then the rest of your body will respond and send the bike in that direction. Most of my pileups in corners were the result of me fixating on the apex or looking at where I might crash, resulting of course, in me crashing right where I was looking.

One exercise is to ride in the tightest possible circle and then once you are comfortable going round and round start thinking about where you are looking. There is a spot on the ground about a foot or two off your rear wheel where everything seems to spin around, like there is a pinwheel with the center about a foot or two off the rear axle. It's interesting to try to point your head towards that point and look at that center with your eyes.

That's about where you should be looking in a super tight low speed turn. I'm curious about the pedal positions used by expert and pro riders. Do any of them turn left with the left pedal forward or the right pedal forward? Also OP there is a chance you are coming into corners too fast. At a certain speed there is simply no way you can make the turn unless you lay it down and slide it to scrub off speed.

Well that was a lot of yack. To young and beginning riders I say: Go in tiny circles and figure eights. It really helps!


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## sprunghunt (May 14, 2006)

I've always assumed there are two different cornering techniques:

*1) high speed, wide radius, corners*
you brake before the corner, countersteer a little, and lean your bike more than your body. I also sometimes use a knee on the frame similar to the motocross technique. Most people are familiar with this kind of turning as it's similar to road riding and motorbikes.

*2) low speed, tight radius, corners*
This way you ride up to the corner, nearly stop, pull on the rear brake and lean the bike outwards. This makes the bike 'fall' around the corner when the front wheel starts to slip out from under you. With carefull application of the front brake, and good balance, you can actually do this turn with your rear wheel locked up and not rolling. This is a turn that is very specific to mtb although some flatland BMX tricks are similar.


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## Lambdamaster (Nov 5, 2008)

I did not bother to read the entire thread, but I am sure a lot of members have provided almost all the helpful information available on this topic.
I would just like to applaud you for choosing to improve technique rather than throw money at upgrades. In the words of the great Eddy Merckx, "Don't buy upgrades, ride up grades." :thumbsup:


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## jbgilm (Mar 24, 2009)

This may be too obvious, but try reducing tire pressure to avoid sliding in the turns. Hard tires roll best, but don't provide the best traction.


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## bernside (Oct 18, 2009)

davidarnott said:


> Well that was a lot of yack. To young and beginning riders I say: Go in tiny circles and figure eights. It really helps!


Hey David,
Don't question your judgment...I think that is excellent advice. Sometimes simple is good. I have done similar drills on my motorcycles and road bikes. I will practice on the MTB as well


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## ireland57 (Sep 11, 2009)

davidarnott said:


> Nothing has helped my turning more than riding in the tightest possible circles at the slowest possible speeds. I consider it a basic training exercise and and excellent warm up before riding. This exercise has long term benefits as it seems to train the motor memory in the physics of turning so that turning becomes more "automatic" such that you don't have to "think" about what you are doing and can concentrate on other things.
> 
> Speaking of concentrating on other things the most important thing you can be concentrating on in a turn is where your eyes are looking and that should be where you want to go. The great turn killer is to fixate on the apex or some obstacle. When you look where you want to go then the rest of your body will respond and send the bike in that direction. Most of my pileups in corners were the result of me fixating on the apex or looking at where I might crash, resulting of course, in me crashing right where I was looking.
> 
> Well that was a lot of yack. To young and beginning riders I say: Go in tiny circles and figure eights. It really helps!


Bless you!
I've been having so much trouble in the past 2 months with (and getting worse at) slow switchback corners (downhill more so than uphill).

I've been wondering (besides riding them more often) what else to do about.

When I started m.biking it was no trouble but my previous bike would turn in harder than I liked once it got to a certain point and put me off balance.

Now I have a good, new bike that steer how I like and I rode those corners like a barbie doll especially since I've become "clipped". Trying to dump a bad habit.

I'll play in the back yard. 
Great idea, thankyou. I can't believe I hadn't thought of it.


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## ebarker9 (Jul 10, 2006)

BetterRide said:


> Some of my theories (which I learned from the above riders, snowboard coaching, snowboard coaches, motorcycles coaches, reading books on physics, etc.) are:
> 1. counter pressure is what makes the bike lean, lean is what makes bike turn
> 2. the more you lean the bike at any given speed the tighter you will turn,
> 3. braking should done before a corner, asking I our tire to both slow us and change direction at the same time is a bad idea
> ...


Totally agree with all of this.

The benefit to leaning your bike more than your body is that you're in a more balanced position to respond to changes in traction etc. With your center of gravity inside the contact patch, a slide will almost certainly result in a fall. On a bicycle, the only time you'd want your body leaning more than the bike would be a high speed turn where traction is not an issue where you're trying to get more of your mass to the inside of the turn, which is why guys on motorcycles shift their weight to the inside of turns.

Default should be head pointed well past the apex, no brakes (maybe a tiny feathering of the rear, if necessary), hips rotated into the turn, outside pedal down, pressing on inside grip to lean the bike. As you say, bikes turn by leaning, so any practice exaggerating this lean while staying balanced is going to be helpful.

And...since you mention it, look at video of Rennie. Textbook cornering.


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## Lambdamaster (Nov 5, 2008)

actually, one should taper off the brakes as they enter the corner, but should definitely be completely off the brakes by the apex. Trail-braking will lend some traction to the front wheel due to the weight distribution effects of braking, and trail braking reduces the total amount of braking before the turn, which shaves time. Also, you are not using all of your available traction with the lateral forces of the relatively shallow beginnings of the turn.
it's all about the traction circle (obviously in most conditions it is not a perfect circle)


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## bernside (Oct 18, 2009)

here's an update:

another couple weeks of practice and things have gotten quite a bit better. One of the most significant changes was shortening the bars up by 2". Now I feel like I am steering my body through the trees rather than just trying to get the bars through. Huge improvement.


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## AZXCbiker (Jan 5, 2014)

The upright bike, weight inside is the techinique I use.
I used to crit race years ago and the quickest way to manuever around a tight turn packed with riders was to come into the turn hot and tight.
At the last second you push down on the outside handlebar hard while pulling up the inside and threw your weight to the inside.
When you hit it right it feels like your bike compresses and whips you around the turn like a slingshot.
Took a lot of practice and nerve as the whole thing feels a bit counter intuitive.
Obviously the traction does not exist on dirt , but the concept of keeping the bike upright for maximum traction carries through


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