# Anybody care about their brain?



## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

Helmets for bikers:
No country is trying to do what is best for protecting what matters most. They all are so obsessed with protecting the skull that they think that is all that matters. Brain protection is only taken care of in a very minor way. The foam that almost all helmets use as protection is of absolutely no use.
What matter most is that the brain should be protected as it is not repairable; the skull is.
I do not believe that the rubber suspension of 6D helmets plus the 100% Altus helmet is a perfect protection but it is a step in the right direction.
Look at what happen with just a little impact of the head in a normal helmet with foam as only protection: https://qcollar.ca/pages/science 
Maybe the Wavecel from Bontrager and the Koroyd straw from Smiths are better than the standard foam padding but in my concussed brain the rubber is so far the best for helping the brain of what is so far available, and the one I bought is the one I consider best even though the 100% helmet is both lighter and better ventilated. Protecting the brain is most important.
That companies are selling what they make money on is easy to understand, but if I was not retired and spending my time taking care of my family I would do something to help people that are being misinformed by the sayings: This new helmet is the best in the world with more ventilation and at the same time the lightest ever produced. Such nonsense is more or less what most helmet manufacturers are telling to lure people to buy a new helmet which is only a new colour and a slightly changed design without any real improvement. The construction of these in my eyes bad helmets are so alike that it could be easy to imagine that they are all produced by same company (in China) with only shape and colours different in order to suit the company selling them.
You can help your friends and guide to a safer helmet by telling which helmets are good or better as the only good friend to help you is one who is alive.


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## Grooverider (Aug 24, 2018)

starting @ $495 for the full face.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

Grooverider said:


> starting @ $495 for the full face.


What kind of protection is in it? Anything good or just standard foam?


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## Grooverider (Aug 24, 2018)

las-palmas said:


> What kind of protection is in it? Anything good or just standard foam?


Most bike helmets have some sort of extra stuff apart from "just" foam.
MIPS, MIPS Spherical, Fluid Inside™/Dual-density Varizorb™ and etc.
The idea that only the top of the line are good for you sounds like the same bullshit I hear from bike reviewers saying that a $5999 is ok or that SRAM NX sucks and you should stop riding bikes if you have one.

Avoid the cheap ones. That's for sure but anything with MIPS for a casual rider is more than enough. Just make sure it fits well.
That's how I see it.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

las-palmas said:


> Helmets for bikers:
> No country is trying to do what is best for protecting what matters most. They all are so obsessed with protecting the skull that they think that is all that matters. Brain protection is only taken care of in a very minor way. The foam that almost all helmets use as protection is of absolutely no use.
> What matter most is that the brain should be protected as it is not repairable; the skull is.
> I do not believe that the rubber suspension of 6D helmets plus the 100% Altus helmet is a perfect protection but it is a step in the right direction.
> ...


that Qcollar thing is a trip. Essentially by increasing back pressure in your head you protect your brain by increasing the liquid cushioning in there. Like MIPS but on the inside. Would decrease rotational torsion and impact forces I guess that are some of the causes of concussion and hemispherical damage. Weird though.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

I do believe MIPS is overrated or maybe of no use at all. It does make the sudden stop of the rotation come to the brain some milliseconds later, but so does hair (not all of have that though) but that is not the same as reducing or decreasing the sudden stop.
Have no idea if the collar will be available outside Canada and do not know if it is good to have increased blood in the skull for longer periods, but the idea is a new one compared to the foam, that I consider is protecting the skull and not the brain.
I see the collar as a possible good thing, but the MIPS as a marketing gimmick.


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## Grooverider (Aug 24, 2018)

las-palmas said:


> I do believe MIPS is overrated or maybe of no use at all. It does make the sudden stop of the rotation come to the brain some milliseconds later, but so does hair (not all of have that though) but that is not the same as reducing or decreasing the sudden stop.
> Have no idea if the collar will be available outside Canada and do not know if it is good to have increased blood in the skull for longer periods, but the idea is a new one compared to the foam, that I consider is protecting the skull and not the brain.
> I see the collar as a possible good thing, but the MIPS as a marketing gimmick.


Care to share scientific data as of why MIPS is a "marketing gimmick"?


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## edubfromktown (Sep 7, 2010)

Oh cool- I thought it was going to be a thread about how bad it is to cull a few brain cells 

I've cracked 3 helmets in the past decade... one MIPS and two non. The MIPS ones have gone through multiple iterations/refinements in the past few years and are certainly not a gimmick in my opinion.

I can't say with 100% certainty that I would have been worse off with a non-MIPS helmet in my last crash. Sure happy the impact did not leave any lasting effects. 

I had a depth perception test done within a few days of crashing my head (ass over teakettle onto frozen ground at ~10 MPH) which came back negative for signs of a concussion.


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## Grooverider (Aug 24, 2018)

The only gripe I have with MIPS (on my full face) is that it makes the helmet move which in my case keeps it sliding forward on my forehead if I hit rougher terrain. 
I crashed in mine and it sure felt smooth and allowed the helmet to rotate first before my head followed so in my non scientific opinion it does help.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

The reason I believe MIPS is helping little or not at all is that I bought a MIPS helmet a few years ago because that was supposed to be a miracle in protection. When looking at the little yellow plastic inside that would attach to the skull and saw how much (little) it actually could move and only sideways I could not believe why that would help a lot or anything. If I would be falling so MIPS help the most, on the side of the helmet and not front or rear, it will delay the sudden stop of the brain inside the skull a very short time but would not decrease the movement of the brain inside the skull. 
I am not sure that the new helmet I bought that is suspended in silicone like rubber and a helmet inside a helmet would have made my concussion different, I only hope it does. 
But seeing most helmets are very similar and very little is being changed except for being lighter and better ventilated I was open to pay a bit more in hope my brain would be better protected.
The most impressive I have seen to help reduce movements of the brain inside the skull when being stopped suddenly is the Qcollar from Canada but if that has negative sides as well as positive I have no idea of. Just think that new ideas are needed as the standards for protecting have for too long time been just adding a shell that will rarely crack outside the skull has in my eyes been very little for very long.


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## Grooverider (Aug 24, 2018)

The whole point of it is to move a little. It's all you need to start that abrupt motion with a delay and then constant movement thx to those rubbers in there.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

Grooverider said:


> Most bike helmets have some sort of extra stuff apart from "just" foam.
> MIPS, MIPS Spherical, Fluid Inside™/Dual-density Varizorb™


When asking what is Dual-density Varizorb on google I got a silly answer plus a link to Dropframe helmet from FOX. Looking at the add I found nothing but a claim that Dual-density Varizorb would provide improved protection by spreading forces of impact across a wider area. But nothing convincing about why or how it would do that. Just like most ads for helmets: Our new helmet is better, smarter, lighter and more ventilated than ???
The https://www.fluidinside.com/ was more specific and having no idea of how it actually would reduce abrupt brain movement inside the skull I am not having any meaning of that system. Would take some time to see what that is about but it seems to me like a way to move the helmet on top of the skull more or less like suspended in rubber (like exhaust system on a car so you do not get the vibrations from engine unless you drive a rally group A, B or even an old and no longer existing D type) and suspended with something damping the impact would in my eyes be better than just foam.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

Grooverider said:


> The whole point of it is to move a little. It's all you need to start that abrupt motion with a delay and then constant movement thx to those rubbers in there.


I agree with you but if it only delays the abrupt movement and the same abrupt movement come a few milli- or microseconds later I see no improvement. The brain will still be thrown around inside the skull and if not lucky some or maybe several fibres of various importance may be damaged or broken.


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## TwoTone (Jul 5, 2011)

Grooverider said:


> The whole point of it is to move a little. It's all you need to start that abrupt motion with a delay and then constant movement thx to those rubbers in there.


Just remember, now a days feeling > facts.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

TwoTone said:


> Just remember, now a days feeling > facts.


Do not believe that feelings always turn facts, but telling a lie often enough with little variations and a lot of people will believe the lie to be the truth.

Weapon of politicians.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

pseudoscience, no convincing evidence, no relationship between how it works and how woodpeckers protect their brains, it's a gimmick.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

Nurse Ben said:


> pseudoscience, no convincing evidence, no relationship between how it works and how woodpeckers protect their brains, it's a gimmick.


I love Woody Woodpecker too. How he does what he does I also do not know.


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## stiksandstones (Oct 7, 2004)

A lot of anecdotal conjecture in your post, and spoken more as a fan of certain brands than anything else, but hey-good for them to have such a fan.

Curious on your scientific rebuttal to virginia tech helmet testing, the only 3rd party, non biased lab in the country that has test results showing helmets with 'rubber' elastomer type technology performing VERY poorly:
https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html

I've been in another lab, not Virginia Tech, and the elastomer type helmets also did not perform well in those tests.



6D ATB-1T EVO said:


> Helmets for bikers:
> No country is trying to do what is best for protecting what matters most. They all are so obsessed with protecting the skull that they think that is all that matters. Brain protection is only taken care of in a very minor way. The foam that almost all helmets use as protection is of absolutely no use.
> What matter most is that the brain should be protected as it is not repairable; the skull is.
> I do not believe that the rubber suspension of 6D helmets plus the 100% Altus helmet is a perfect protection but it is a step in the right direction.
> ...


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

stiksandstones said:


> A lot of anecdotal conjecture in your post, and spoken more as a fan of certain brands than anything else, but hey-good for them to have such a fan.
> 
> Curious on your scientific rebuttal to virginia tech helmet testing, the only 3rd party, non biased lab in the country that has test results showing helmets with 'rubber' elastomer type technology performing VERY poorly:
> https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html
> ...


You are absolutely right. I am no fan of the testing method of Virginia tech lab. 
They test according to the standard requirements in the US (almost same as EU, different to Japan and Australia).
That is supposedly what a testing institute is supposed to. Not their problem that the standard is so old that the only thing a helmet was supposed to protect when the standard was made was the skull.
The best in test helmets are mostly excellent protecting the skull. But when the standard is not requiring any kind of damping in order to diminish the abrupt impact the head is receiving when crashing I give very little for that standard.
Best surgeons have no problem fixing a skull, but I do not know of any that can fix a brain.
I do not recommend any specific brand of helmet as 100%, 6D, Bontrager and Smiths (alphabetically listed) are all making helmets that are reducing the abrupt impact of the brain, but I do think that the antic idea of standard foam is not only not good, but is helping not capable companies selling helmets that are mostly made in China with differences only in design and colour in order to suit the selling companies and these helmets are all:
WORLDS BEST or BETTER THAN EVER or LIGHTER THAN XXX or MUCH BETTER VENTILATED.
I even read that a company has made a new helmet that is spreading the impact over a larger area (meaning that the ones they made before were absolutely no good) and such a claim is only telling that the skull is better protected but brain is not. 
If you buy a helmet that is supposed to be the lightest helmet on the market or the most ventilated existing then you are looking for something else in a helmet than I am.
Motorbike helmets are much better protecting both skull and brain and that is easy as they are both larger and do not need much ventilation, but they have a hard shell and a lot of damping material inside (Formula 1 helmets also).
We probably do not need to be protected against a crash with 200km/h or faster, but what is protecting the extreme is not the worst to look after if you want to be protected.
I bought a rather expensive helmet because where I live no bike shops are selling 100%, 6D, Bontrager or Smiths helmets and 6D was the only company that wanted to inform me the inside measures of the helmet so it was that helmet I bought. The straw in Smiths called Koroyd® and the Wavecel in Bontrager helmets could maybe be as good as the suspension in the one I bought; the rubber in the 100% seems in pictures as less damping and besides none of these 3 companies bothered answering my mails. I have a big round head and most helmets are too narrow so inside length and width is something helmet sellers should inform but they only inform the silly circumference which maybe and only maybe is good only for standard shaped heads (which I do not know what are).
Another thing is that the motorbike helmets made by 6D are recommended by a friend of mine (I do not ride motorbike anymore, too old and when I did none so good helmets existed) who says that several of his friends find 6D helmets absolutely great (do not know if any of them crashed in one).
So: YES. The helmet standard used to accept quality of helmets is in my eyes so old and useless that somebody should do something about that. But with politicians that are imbeciles knowing nothing about mountain biking and lobbyists (another word for people that corrupt) very good (they are paid well ) it will probably not happen in my time.


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## lardo5150 (Oct 20, 2014)

you are obviously a 6D super fan, or work for them.

"You are absolutely right. I am no fan of the testing method of Virginia tech lab.
They test according to the standard requirements in the US (almost same as EU, different to Japan and Australia)."

No.

https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/new-tests-show-some-bike-helmets-protect-better-than-others

"The bike helmet rating system developed by Rowson and his colleagues builds on their years of experience evaluating other types of sports head protection. The Virginia Tech Helmet Lab currently rates football and hockey helmets, as well as soccer headgear.

"In cycling, we saw an opportunity to reach a broad cross section of the public and bring a new level of safety to an activity with a wide range of other benefits," Rowson says.

Bike helmets in the U.S. are required by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) to pass a series of tests in which helmets are struck against an anvil at a set speed. The only requirement is that the helmets prevent head impact accelerations over 300 g, a level associated with skull fracture or severe brain injury. There is no requirement for helmets to limit concussion-level forces, which are more common among bicyclists in crashes.

CPSC tests reveal a range of performance within the 300 g limit, and Consumer Reports takes that variation into account for its own helmet ratings. However, those tests don't reflect the circumstances of most real-world bike crashes.

One shortcoming of the CPSC testing is that it doesn't evaluate the entirety of the helmet. For instance, the helmet rim is excluded from CPSC testing, even though studies of bicycle crashes have found that a large number of cyclist head impacts are at the helmet rim, often at the sides or front of helmets. In addition, the CPSC testing requires helmets to be dropped perpendicular to the impact surface. In contrast, a bicyclist's head is more likely to strike the pavement at an angle during a crash. Finally, the speed at which the helmet hits the anvil in the CPSC testing represents an extremely severe impact that isn't typical of most bike crashes.

Before developing their test protocol, the Virginia Tech researchers conducted two studies with IIHS support. In the first one, they used the CPSC rig to test a group of helmets at two locations - one at the side of the helmet, within the CPSC test area, and one at the front rim, which isn't subject to the required testing. They found that on certain models, the rim location was more vulnerable.

The second study used a different test rig with a more realistic dummy head hitting a slanted anvil, covered with 80-grit sandpaper to approximate the roughness of asphalt. These tests were designed to replicate more accurately the angle at which a bicyclist's head is likely to strike the pavement in a crash.

The rig with the slanted anvil and more realistic head did a better job teasing out differences among helmets, the researchers found. A slightly modified version of that rig is being used for the ratings.

For the ratings, the lab tests each helmet at six commonly impacted locations, including two at the rim. Helmets are dropped on the anvil at two speeds taken from studies of real-world crashes - the median speed at which a rider's head is estimated to hit the ground and a higher speed equivalent to the 90th-percentile speed in the real-world crash studies.

Sensors embedded in the headform measure linear acceleration and rotational velocity, and the risk of concussion is estimated from those measurements. The number of stars assigned to each helmet represents how effectively that model reduces overall injury risk."

Don't be mad that other helmets beat out your 6D.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

lardo5150 said:


> Don't be mad that other helmets beat out your 6D.


Well I am not. Not a super fan of anything (except the truth, which is why I dislike politicians) and I am not working for anybody. I retired 14 years ago and paid full price for the helmet I bought. The reason for choosing that helmet is that when I wrote to the helmet companies more than a month ago the only company that bothered to answer was 6D. The 3 other companies did not bother to answer my rather simple question about fitting of a helmet and they still have not. Those who think that if a circumference is what is needed to find the right size or model of helmet are idiots. Not all heads are shaped the same. I have a big and round Viking skull.
The Wavecel from Bontrager seemed very interesting, but having 7 helmets here bought during only 6 years that should fit according to circumference but were directly uncomfortable I did not want to buy a rather expensive thing that I would not have a reason to believe it would fit. A helmet that does not fit is not a good helmet no matter how many stars it gets.
One thing I found silly with the Virginia test is that when searching for some of the models they tested they were old and no longer produced so maybe the testing firms have not enough funding to buy the latest models but only recommend after what they can afford.
And overall injury risk is something that can be interpreted widely. First in order to be allowed to be used on public roads they must have the label the regulation standard requires. That is protecting the skull. As I said about the people that set the standards the law: Politicians with no idea what they are talking about. And: lobbyists are still running the show.
So I am not annoyed that some helmets get more stars than other helmets. I prefer to use the common sense still left in my brain.

And by the way when searching Google for Rowson I get one singer (female) and one writer (male). Who the Rowson you cite is I do not know.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

I know that I work for 6D helmets because I bought the 6D ATB-1T EVO helmet and also for Speedplay for telling that I like their Frog pedals, plus Thomson as I think their Masterpiece seat-posts are fantastic plus I have 2 different stems from Thomson. I also work for Schwalbe and Continental and Maxxis as I think they make great tyres and of course I work for Shimano as I have not seen better performance in any brakes than I have in their Saint M820 also their XTR items are rather good. The most funny thing is that I work for Manitou as I have never had a better shock than their 4W Swinger Air - UPS that is a problem Manitou is no longer existing so I guess I do not work for them, but X-Fusion I can still work for as they are still existing, Lezyne also make some good products so I guess I also work for them, I have a couple of RockShox forks so I must work for them also or maybe not as I think that the Magura Thor is better than the Revelation.
When will people stop telling somebody they do not know the least about who they are working for because they do not agree with them?
Please note: I said people, not ************ insert whatever you think.

https://www.helmets.org/madewhere.htm


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## VegasSingleSpeed (May 5, 2005)

6D ATB-1T EVO said:


> And by the way when searching Google for Rowson I get one singer (female) and one writer (male). Who the Rowson you cite is I do not know.


Steve Rowson, the researcher who runs the VT Helmet Lab:
https://beam.vt.edu/people/faculty/rowson-s.html

Try Googling Dunning Kruger.


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## armii (Jan 9, 2016)

6D ATB-1T EVO said:


> I do believe MIPS is overrated or maybe of no use at all. It does make the sudden stop of the rotation come to the brain some milliseconds later, but so does hair (not all of have that though) but that is not the same as reducing or decreasing the sudden stop.
> Have no idea if the collar will be available outside Canada and do not know if it is good to have increased blood in the skull for longer periods, but the idea is a new one compared to the foam, that I consider is protecting the skull and not the brain.
> I see the collar as a possible good thing, but the MIPS as a marketing gimmick.


The actually testing behind MIPS and similar systems shows it to be very effective in car racing helmets, motorcycle road racing helmets, motocross helmets and downhill ski helmets. All of these helmets fit much more snug than bike helmets. In bike helmets that fit much looser than other style helmets it is not as effective as the helmet has leeway to shift and turn a bit on its own. And IMHO it is not effective as all on any half helmet.


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## bike man (May 5, 2020)

should I get the super dh or should i get one open face and one fulface


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## Bikeworks (Sep 10, 2020)

rockcrusher said:


> that Qcollar thing is a trip. Essentially by increasing back pressure in your head you protect your brain by increasing the liquid cushioning in there. Like MIPS but on the inside. Would decrease rotational torsion and impact forces I guess that are some of the causes of concussion and hemispherical damage. Weird though.


I'd be concerned about the effects it could have on cardiac health, especially considering it's being used during activities which are CV intensive. Increased jugular vein distension (JVD) is an ominous sign typically.


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## MTBUSER (Oct 23, 2020)

*Em!*

In the past no one wore helmets,now it's cheap so why not ?


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