# Get the pack mass lower on a full suspension bike?



## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

I searched for this and didn't find.

I'm considering a long right this next summer. Very rough, cold and remote with quite a bit of unridable stuff, and I'll need enough gear to be safe (bivy bag, sleeping bag, extra food, stove.) But having all that weight up high is very unstable, and riding with a big pack sucks. I've tried loaded bikepacker mtbs without pack and it wasn't exactly joy.

I've toured on the road before where the front paniers carried weight so well and low, but clearly stupid to attach a panier to the axle of a suspension fork, that weight clearly should be sprung if at all possible.

Has anyone built a rack that hangs off the fork crown? Fork crown and bars? And stem? Something along those lines? Seems like there's some potentially strong stiff places that could support a front rack, rack itself would also need to be really stiff and strong.

Mounting rear paniers on a full suspension bike seems easier but probably need to involve the frame for stability.

Looked at the rocky Sherpa but it doesn't seem to have any special mounts.

Thanks and sorry if I missed previous discussions of this point.


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

The general consensus seems to be that if you are carrying so much stuff that you actually need panniers, then you aren't going to be riding rowdy enough to warrant suspension. And inversely, if you are riding rough enough trails to want suspension, you really don't want a bunch of rattly bulky panniers.

Check out some of the fat bikes people have loaded up for crazy long hard trips. They smooth out some of the trail rattle, allow you to ride over chunkier stuff, and don't have all the maintenance problems of suspension on long rides.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^^ This. Look at something like a 29er or 27.5 plus hardtail with front sus. Or rigid. Fork mount bags for water and heavy stuff. Frame bag can fit lots down low. Lighter stuff on the bars and seatbag. hat's what works for me anyway. Frame bags are they way to go, not racks. Also look at the seat stays for those big cages too.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

Just I know exactly how rough these trails are. I wouldn't mind riding them on fs bike... Fat bike... could be thats a good possibility. Or a 27.5+ hardtail. Definitely need a suspension fork, which is why I was thinking about panniers. Am thinking... how light is a modern carbon road fork? Takes way more strain than a rack, weighs peanuts, would be cool if someone made a monocoque carbon pannier rack.

I've not even tried to weigh/size out the stuff I need. Could be I can get by with lots less than I think.

I'm still thinking a rocky Sherpa looks cool - but would be so much cooler if it had carbon racks so you could use panniers with the full suspension.


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

eri said:


> I've not even tried to weigh/size out the stuff I need.


Get to it, then start over.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

leeboh said:


> Fork mount bags for water and heavy stuff.


Maybe on (g)road, but not on trail. The last thing I want is added swing weight on the front wheel.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

https://faiv.de/luggage-rack-for-suspension-fork/

Knew it had to exist. Says 3 folks used it to ride the silk road. Which sorta sounds like the start of a knee slapper.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

eri said:


> https://faiv.de/luggage-rack-for-suspension-fork/
> 
> Knew it had to exist. Says 3 folks used it to ride the silk road. Which sorta sounds like the start of a knee slapper.


Interesting, but is that wide enough for MTB tires and bigger fork lowers? ...and not even a YouTube vid?

-F


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

eri said:


> https://faiv.de/luggage-rack-for-suspension-fork/
> 
> Knew it had to exist. Says 3 folks used it to ride the silk road. Which sorta sounds like the start of a knee slapper.


Previously you said that your route was very rough, so much so that you really wanted suspension.

I don't think you've thought this through if you think that that much bulk and weight on your fork, swinging back and forth, is going to feel acceptable on those sorts of surfaces.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

mikesee said:


> Previously you said that your route was very rough, so much so that you really wanted suspension.
> 
> I don't think you've thought this through if you think that that much bulk and weight on your fork, swinging back and forth, is going to feel acceptable on those sorts of surfaces.


Are you more questioning the weight than the location? High weight can be scary. Low weight is stable.

I'm now trying to decide between the salsa anything cradle and some strap system.

Unless I strap to bars the harness' all weigh about 400g. I've got a bit over 2kg that must go on the front, probably also my 1kg camera...

I predict that in the next year or two some kick ass company will do the obvious and build a bike with lightweight integrated sprung rack. A simple shelf joined from fork crown to bars would help a bunch.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Looked at something like a Surly Krampus ?Go with a 140 mm fork, 3 " tires and lots of space for a frame bag in the middle, add a seat bag too if needed.


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

I wonder if you could make use of the inverted forks and some hose clamps to get your water bottles or whatever suspended.


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

I just... The thought of panniers on rough road... Ooof. Last time I rode an even slightly chunky road with panniers I ended up emptying out as much as I could into a little packable backpack to reduce the weight in the panniers. And that road was only chunky by rigid gravel bike standards. I cant IMAGINE riding an actual trail with panniers, much less a legitimately technical trail.

Sure, some ultralight tiny Revelate panniers on a minimal rack with not too much in them could be ok.

This was pretty miserable:








This was *ok* but not great


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

lentamentalisk said:


> I wonder if you could make use of the inverted forks and some hose clamps to get your water bottles or whatever suspended.
> View attachment 1248711


Brilliant.

I found this, chomoly, 2lbs, got good reviews, discontinued...

Tubus Front Rack Swing Black - Buy Online - MoruyaBicycles.com.au


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## ccm (Jan 14, 2004)

858g
WHOA! that's heavy. Especially by the time you add bags and fill them
On rough trails I find you need to be able to lift your wheel often, either half bunny hop or walking beside your bike to lift over logs and ledges


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

I think there may be some confusion about what bike you are riding, what trails you are riding, and how much gear you are planning on bringing. I see a lot of comments both from you, and from the replies, that really don't seem to be lining up. 

Do you think you could help provide some more context here?


For example, I generally don't bring more than 20lbs of stuff, bags included. Adding on an extra 2lbs just for the rack seems kinda crazy to me. And I don't really care that much where all the weight goes, because it just isn't that much weight. I go to extreme measures to make sure that pack weight is super low so I can still have fun and huck jumps.

But if you are planning on bringing 40-50lb of gear, then it starts to really affect your handling, and a 2lb rack isn't such a big deal. You won't be lifting your bike over jumps or obstacles, so weight and such doesn't matter as much.


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## mikesee (Aug 25, 2003)

eri said:


> Are you more questioning the weight than the location? High weight can be scary. Low weight is stable.


If it's pivoting/swinging around on the front wheel it sucks either way.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

lentamentalisk said:


> I think there may be some confusion about what bike you are riding, what trails you are riding, and how much gear you are planning on bringing. I see a lot of comments both from you, and from the replies, that really don't seem to be lining up.
> 
> Do you think you could help provide some more context here?
> 
> ...


Yes, sorry. Is my fault, I'm sort of zipping back and forth between two subjects: "why no suspended racks", and "ahh! what do I do!" I'm sick in bed with the flu right now so prolly not thinking so clearly.

I wanted subject of thread to be: why don't we have suspended panniers? As you said, carrying dense weight low is terrific, and paniers wouldn't interfere with rear suspension. Look to how motorcycle racks work. This is clearly not a thing right now, I've not seen anyone build it. Reality is that pushing and carrying a 70 pound rolling weight up a cliff isn't going to be very plausible, at that point suspension is irrelevant, is just lots of pain.

I think its pretty hokey to be strapping all that weight off my bars and seatpost, I'm now resigned to it for now but nobody is going to convince me it is ideal.

I strongly believe that in the future a bike maker will build a suspended bike with integrated pannier racks. It is just so obvious, wouldn't need to add much weight. The 2lb chromoly rack above is much heavier than it needs to be. Anyway, besides the point now because they don't exist yet. I'll be riding a long way on incomplete 'graded' roads. Sometimes smooth but really rough too, like when road goes along a river bottom.

Ok, subject 2, what am I worried about. Which is something that really belongs in another thread.

I'll be riding a few hundred miles or so across some roadless passes in the indian Himalaya. 5 or 6 days of loaded riding will be on "horse trails", but these are trails for tiny agile Himalayan horses. So lots of pushing and carrying. Because of so much pushing and carrying I really need to keep the weight down. I think reasonable max for everything including bike must be less than 55 and I think that's pretty easily achievable. In most places I won't need to bring very much food and fuel but sometimes I will and that's where the weight might get up toward that upper limit.

My bike trying out a ranger frame bag:









Here's a pic of what the bad trail looks like:









Sad story, under the brits the local rulers strictly prohibited logging and hunting in the region. In the 40s that whole slope was a thick forest of ancient junipers. After partition the locals came and cut all the trees. Now its a huge slope of dirt with old stumps. That guy is carrying a piece of a loom to his very remote home village 3 days walking (for him) and 4 passes away. No more wood in the area. All cut. That guy really does live at the end of the road. I'd love to detour out and visit his village but man its a hell of a bad trail down there, and then I'd need to claw my way back out.

Here's a view of maybe the worst section for me. Pic was taken at 3900m. The trail goes down to the river, there's a bridge at that structure. There is a vegetated gully that goes to upper right? To the left of it is a sort of fin of sand? The trail is collection of zig-zags up the face of that 500m tall sand thing. There is a shallow valley behind to the left and then right which leads in 7 or 8 miles to a 4800m pass and then a very very steep unridable descent.

What I love about the route is that its the easiest way through.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Panniers are not the way to go for rocky off road. At least for the front. Get a seat bag, and you can mount water bottles on the bottom of the down tube. Try a small rear rack and some compression bags for the rear of your hardtail. Handlebar bag/harness for your tent/ sleep system. Start there.


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## vikb (Sep 7, 2008)

eri said:


> I strongly believe that in the future a bike maker will build a suspended bike with integrated pannier racks.












Like this ^^^? Tout Terrain made this FS touring bike back in 2007. The bike is long gone.


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## MikeTowpathTraveler (Aug 12, 2015)

My dual suspension Haibike Full FatSix ebike as it evolved. Started out with the Portland Design Works rear seatpost rack to accomodate the Revelate Terrapin dry bag made specifically for that rack. Inside, I carry my flat tire repair gear and other items for my day trips. But it was then I realized I am not a minimalist type person; having felt comfortable years ago with my touring bike decked out in front and rear panniers. The Ortlieb handlebar bag is great for things I want while cruising, such as camera, drink and other stuff. The Old Man Mountain Phat Sherpa front rack is made specifically for the Rock Shox width. I've two of those Ortlieb Large Office bags. Opens up the possibilities of carrying more gear should I need it.
















This is the final rack set up for this bike. I consider it touring ready, with the exception of the dyno hub lighting system that will come this fall.

Can it handle the Silk Road? Have there been more traditional pannier and rack cyclists who have pedaled the world with the old school rack and panniers? For sure.

There will be no Silk Road for me, nor single track, along a cliff face with jutting rock outcroppings in the plans for this rider. Just some easy going canal towpath rides, a ride down into the NJ Pine Barrens sugar sand forest roads; that kind of stuff.

A word about Old Man Mountain: a peek into the OMM thread on the bikepacking forums are in order. For now, you would have to find used on the open market as the vendor attempts to reorganize his business, not to mention the good will rep he has trashed with failure to deliver product in recent months to his customers.

The key to the OMM racks are the Robert Axle Project thru axles that accept the full weight of the racks and panniers on a suspended bike frame and fork. In my application, I discarded the cheap plain steel components OMM supplies with their kits for stainless steel while powdercoating the support brackets and longitudinal stays that come in plain aluminum.

Traditional racks like these allow one to get the smallest Ortlieb bikepacking pannier bags for sport front rollers for a minimalist feel; all the way to going full-out with their larger capacity rear pannier bags.....


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

I rode a low boy rack on a Rockshox cross country, also had full bags out back. The weight and location is not the issue, it's the swinging of the bag that causes problems. You got to get the weight secured so it doesn't move, which is hard to do with soft side bags.

There are also issues with side to side clearance and the bike will want to fall over because your weight is "outside" your bike center. Really and truly, panniers are for double track or paved.

Then there's the added weight of the racks and bags which by themselves will add three to five pounds, so it's almost like your adding weight to justify the plan, vs making a plan that justifies the weight.

Like most have said, cut weight, only carry things you will use every day: Clothing to rotate, two sets of daily riding clothes, wind shell, tights, gloves and hat, some first aid and tools/spares, then the rest is food and water. Plan your route for resupply as much as possible to avoid carrying to many days of supplies.

You don't even need a tent if you can improvise. Same with cooking, it ain't necessary if you carry precooked food and simply add water and wait. Instant everything will suffice esp if you have a few town stopovers planned in.


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## She&I (Jan 4, 2010)

eri said:


> I think its pretty hokey to be strapping all that weight off my bars and seatpost, I'm now resigned to it for now but nobody is going to convince me it is ideal.


Lots of people before you have used and subscribe to this "hokey" method of rough-terrain cargo management. Some add other soft bike bags and/or use a backpack.

Have you actually used such a system for multiple self-supported days? I'm putting money on no. Otherwise you wouldn't be obstinate.


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## Co-opski (Oct 24, 2013)

Just get a basket and a fanny pack.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

She&I said:


> Lots of people before you have used and subscribe to this "hokey" method of rough-terrain cargo management. Some add other soft bike bags and/or use a backpack.
> 
> Have you actually used such a system for multiple self-supported days? I'm putting money on no. Otherwise you wouldn't be obstinate.


Ive lived with panniers and racks for a month and used my new bike to go overnight with all the stuff i think i need. Havent done any offroad with panniers (except when run off the road.)

I definately feel like the tired will slide out easier with the weight strap'ed so high. With panniers the bike would slide but remain upright.

All academic though because what i want doesnt exist...

I'm really stressing the weight now though.


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

So here's the thing. A well packed bike will handle just like a heavy bike, and be able to fly through the crazy gnarliest terrain without hesitation. A poorly packed bike will be terrible the moment the pavement ends.

Panniers let you just throw everything in a big bag and forget about it. You can carry a ton, and it is mostly ok.

Bikepacking bags on the other hand, require a lot of practice packing them *just so*. If you try to just shove thing in, and if you don't spend a lot of time perfecting your gear list, you'll end up with something way worse than if you just chucked it all in a pannier.

Done right, it can look really clean. Here the rider made sure to stay below the absolute max capacity of each bag and didn't overload the bike with bags on bags on bags.








Done poorly, dear god. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

eri said:


> Ive lived with panniers and racks for a month and used my new bike to go overnight with all the stuff i think i need. Havent done any offroad with panniers (except when run off the road.)
> 
> I definately feel like the tired will slide out easier with the weight strap'ed so high. With panniers the bike would slide but remain upright.
> 
> ...


You are over thinking this. Many of us have had a lot of experience with different systems and the bar/frame/seat packs work very well. Handling is minimally affected.


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## bakerjw (Oct 8, 2014)

I built a Lynsky Ti bike and used a carbon fork. On gravel, it wasn't too bad. Once it turned to chunky rock and ruts, it shook me nearly to death. My joints could not take it. I ended up with a Lauf and have never looked back. While not prime for technical single track, when needed, it performed admirably.

lentamentalisk made a good post above too. Minimal bags, properly stowed. I use a Rogue Panda Picketpost seat bag and even jammed full, it never sways. My frame and handlebar bags are also rock solid and I've hit some really rough stuff.

Anecdotal evidence says that using panniers or a trailer will cause people to take much more gear than necessary. and as mentioned above, weigh everything, determine what bags you will use and go from there.

Stove? Not necessary IMHO.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

I found this travel log from a Russian that did some of the route I'm planning to do. This is some of the part that I'm most worried about, down into lingshed from hanuma-la. Has youtube videos - seems to be carrying a big pack. Is damn strong to be riding that stuff with a pack on.

http://dubinchuk.com/tourcycling/indian-himalayas-by-bike-part-6

Too bad the other parts don't seem to be available.

Edit: found the previous day. One of the worst days there is:

http://dubinchuk.com/tourcycling/indian-himalayas-by-bike-part-5

Can see the same picture as I took above but without the overcast.


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## lentamentalisk (Jul 21, 2015)

Yeah, I really don't think getting your panniers suspended should be your worry, given those photos. You should be focusing on keeping your total weight as minimal as possible, and securely fastening everything down. Keeping the weight evenly distributed forward and back will also be really helpful when pushing your bike up slopes like that. Front panniers would cause your wheel to flop around like crazy, and rear panniers would prevent you from pushing your bike. A minimal load on the bike and a small backpack seems like the only sensible way to do this.


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## eri (Sep 4, 2012)

lentamentalisk said:


> Yeah, I really don't think getting your panniers suspended should be your worry, given those photos. You should be focusing on keeping your total weight as minimal as possible, and securely fastening everything down. Keeping the weight evenly distributed forward and back will also be really helpful when pushing your bike up slopes like that. Front panniers would cause your wheel to flop around like crazy, and rear panniers would prevent you from pushing your bike. A minimal load on the bike and a small backpack seems like the only sensible way to do this.


Hi, I think you're 100% right. You all have convinced me. Well that and those super fit Russians being destroyed carrying too much crap with them. 35kg plus bike. Whew. Strong.

I'm not at all looking forward to no stove but I think it's probably best. That weight is better spent carrying more calories, milk powder and barley flour and biscuits. Fine for a few days.

I started a thread for tire advice in wheels and tires. Can you guys help me pick tires? I've no idea how to get better grip on the loose side cut. If it's even possible. Rear is limited to 2.3, front is a float32 I think can fit a 2.5. Will it suck to have unbalanced front rear grip? A big fear is irreparable tire which will leave me dragging a broken bike.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

A small folding twig stove could be useful. The difference in tire size will be fine, look for an appropriate tubeless ready or tubeless tire, they tend to have beefy sidewalls. I like Maxxis. A patch kit with needle and thread and an emergency tube or two would be my choice. If you need parts you can get them shipped to you pretty much anywhere.


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