# dirt drops questions



## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

i've been toying w/ the idea of swapping a riser for dirt drops for a number of reasons, the main one being i don't stretch as much as i'd like and i'm already using a 130mm stem on the ibis. a 17 in mojo is around one in shorter on the toptube, compared to contemporary standards. 
question 1: is it a good idea?
q2: where to buy a dirt drop?
q 3: stem length... if i'm on a 130, should i go w/ a 110 w/ 25º?
q4: what brake shifters go well w/ v's?

thanks guys


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

A1 - Great idea. 
A2 - I haven't seen dirt drops (WTB) available for a long time. Salsa has drops (bell lap) with a flair (see the picture) and stems to fit.
A2 - Stem length will be shorter and taller. I typically run a 130 with flat bars. For drops, I use something in the 110 -120 range depending on t/t length. The Salsa stem in the photo is a new tig crmo 115 deg angle (+25 deg from horizontal) x 120 (available in 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120). You will want to position the drops such that the top of the bar is above and just behind your flat bar position. The drop position should be just below your flat bar position. I think the photos illustrate this. I used to use the Cunningham adjustable stem to optimize the stem position for drops and then have Ibis (as in the photo) or Salsa make a custom stem cuz I'm a tall freak.
A3 - Dia-Compe / Dia-Tech 287V brake levers are compatible with v-brakes without using those silly rolller adapter. Or - here's a thought, use any drop bar lever with old school cantilevers!

Drop bars rule!


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

ssmike said:


> A1 - Great idea.
> A2 - Salsa has drops (bell lap) with a flair and stems to fit. i may have to go salsa route then...
> A2 - Stem length will be shorter and taller. I typically run a 130 with flat bars. For drops, I use something in the 110 -120 range depending on t/t length. The Salsa stem in the photo is a new tig crmo 115 deg angle (+25 deg from horizontal) x 120 (available in 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120). You will want to position the drops such that the top of the bar is above and just behind your flat bar position. The drop position should be just below your flat bar position. I think the photos illustrate this. I used to use the Cunningham adjustable stem to optimize the stem position for drops and then have Ibis (as in the photo) or Salsa make a custom stem cuz I'm a tall freak.
> from your picure, in see 1cm difference in stems.
> ...


many thanks!


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## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

A3: Getting really comfortable on a new drop setup can be tricky.. If you have any way (and patience) to do it, the BEST way is to find a "Cunningham Fitfinder" adjustable stem and ride with that awhile before ordering/specing a "real" stem. I have a sorta dual setup (drops and flats) on my Phoenix (see http://homepage.mac.com/halaburt/bicycles/PhotoAlbum20.html ). Both setups use custom Ti stems from Wes Williams and their specs are:
Flat Bar: 10.5cm rise x 14.0cm reach (30deg x 160mm)
Drop Bar: 14.0cm rise x 9.5cm reach (53deg x 155mm)
These are big stems on a big bike for a big guy.. and would probably need to be "scaled down" for more normal sized rigs. Finding a good, offroad-duty stem for drops without going custom is tricky... The only one I'm aware of is one Salsa used to make. The really classic WTB-esque design here would be an "LD" (curved) stem -- like you see on Nate's bike -- but trying to get a piece of high-quality steel or Ti bent to that acute angle is tricky.

A4: Shifter/Brakes are also tricky to get "just right"... For shifters, the classic setup for WTB afficianados is the WTB mounts for thumb shifters (again, like Nate has on his rigs). These are extremely rare though. I've been very happy with the Chris Kelly ( www.kellybike.com ) "Take Offs" that allow you to mount road bike down-tube shifters in a position very similar to the WTB design. Photo below:










-Geoff



colker1 said:


> ...q 3: stem length... if i'm on a 130, should i go w/ a 110 w/ 25º?
> q4: what brake shifters go well w/ v's?...


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

i got the idea from watching old ibis here and reading a little note on thorn bikes (uk) that confirmmed my thoughts: bikes with short top tubes go better with drop bars. thorn specs different top tubes depending on your bar set up.
if i didn't feel cramped and too upright on my bike i wouldn't bother and spend but i believe the drops may better my reach.
seems you use similar stem lengths for both set ups.. i'm a small to medium guy and a 140/ 150 stem is long for me. 
as far as rise, i've seen drops on a ibis with a rather pedestrian nashbar 25º+ stem. now.. are the dirt drops mtb like in bar width? what about the salsa? i guess i need a road stem to fit drops huh? now that's going to be tough: try to find a road stem w/ 25º +...
hmmmm..
the kelly take offs are nice. i could just install some touring barcons a la rivendell and get away with it too..


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## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

colker1 said:


> i got the idea from watching old ibis here and reading a little note on thorn bikes (uk) that confirmmed my thoughts: bikes with short top tubes go better with drop bars. thorn specs different top tubes depending on your bar set up.
> if i didn't feel cramped and too upright on my bike i wouldn't bother and spend but i believe the drops may better my reach.
> seems you use similar stem lengths for both set ups.. i'm a small to medium guy and a 140/ 150 stem is long for me.
> as far as rise, i've seen drops on a ibis with a rather pedestrian nashbar 25º+ stem.


I wouldn't agree with the concept that you ideally you should have a shorter top-tube for drops... It depends on which design element you want to "hold constant". I would argue that the basic relationship of your body (hands/butt/feet) to the front (and rear) hubs are the critical element. Change the top tube length and you change those relationships. The reason I think some builders would go to shorter top tubes must be their unwillingness or inability to source proper very tall, short reach stems that dirt drops should have. On my Phoenix, my hands end up in almost the exact same position relative to the front hub on both setups.



colker1 said:


> ...are the dirt drops mtb like in bar width?


WTB Dirt drops are about 24" wide at the point of maximum flare; On my Phoenix, the point where my hands naturally fall in the drops is about 19-20" apart. My typical Flat bars are about 23-24" wide, and again my hands fall about 19-20" apart on those too.



colker1 said:


> ...what about the salsa?


According to my old BikePro/PedalPusher catalog, the Salsa "P" series was a 53-deg stem designed for dirtdrops came in both 1" and 1-1/8" expander-bolt quills and 70mm and 100mm lengths (NOTE: these lengths I beleive refer to theoriical reach of the stem and NOT the actual length of the main tube which would be considerably longer in a 53-deg stem). These came in gloss black and typically had the Salsa "roller" as a cable stop/guide.



colker1 said:


> ...i could just install some touring barcons a la rivendell and get away with it too..


The whole idea of the WTB and Kelly shifter mounts is to allow you to keep your hands in the optimal riding position while shifting -- something you really can't do with barcons.

-Geoff


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## airwreck (Dec 31, 2003)

I recall that original drop bar users(pre wtb dirt drops) were doing custom bending.

Can someone verify this or comment on the potential for compromising the integrity?

I would think someone like Steve Cook or maybe Wes Williams would be able to answer this.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

halaburt said:


> I wouldn't agree with the concept that you ideally you should have a shorter top-tube for drops... It depends on which design element you want to "hold constant". I would argue that the basic relationship of your body (hands/butt/feet) to the front (and rear) hubs are the critical element. Change the top tube length and you change those relationships. The reason I think some builders would go to shorter top tubes must be their unwillingness or inability to source proper very tall, short reach stems that dirt drops should have. On my Phoenix, my hands end up in almost the exact same position relative to the front hub on both setups.
> 
> well... i may have to look for a longer bike. the 22.25 tt on my bike is small, even with a 130 stem and a flat bar.
> 
> ...


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Ibis (during the Wes Williams days) was custom bending Specialized RM-3 bars into the Ibis bar. Basically a criterium bend bar with slightly flared (not nearly as much as the WTB) drop. The Ibis bars are what are pictured on my Salsa and Ibis above. I preferred the Ibis to the WTB because the Ibis was more compatible with bar con shifters. The WTB worked great with their special inboard adapters - similar to the Kelly adapters. My Salsa with WTB drops and WTB shifter adapters are pictured here http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?postid=38717#poststop

Here is a picture of my Salsa stem - a custom P-series. The P stems never had enough reach for me - and they just looked too straight up and down. Halaburts explanation on the hand/bar position is right on. The other shot of my Salsa shows the overall relationship between saddle height / bar height / reach. I would also agree that a slightly shorter t/t would be preferable for drop bar usage. My Ibis was custom built for drops with a 24" horizontal t/t. My current flat bar bikes have t/t horizontal lengths approaching 25".


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Anybody seen bars like this? This ideally needs a higher stem for serious off roading. Ive actually never ridden this except for in the back yard a bit. One of those projects where you start throwing old parts on a frame and then.... you have an ugly bike that just sits....

These bars are actually just old English 3 speed bars turned over. They feel actually quite good but like I said I have yet to really try them on a ride.......


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## halaburt (Jan 13, 2004)

colker1 said:


> well... i may have to look for a longer bike. the 22.25 tt on my bike is small, even with a 130 stem and a flat bar.


I think some of the confusion here is the way stem sizes are quoted. I described the two stems for my Phoenix as:
Flat Bar: 10.5cm rise x 14.0cm reach (30deg x 160mm)
>> If this were a stock piece, it would be called "30deg - 140mm"
Drop Bar: 14.0cm rise x 9.5cm reach (53deg x 155mm)
>> If this were a stock piece, it would be called "53deg - 95mm"

Here's a copy of the drawing Wes Williams did to lay out these 2 stems:









Bottom line for you should be that if you like the feel/handling of your current Thorn bike with 22.25" TT and xx-deg/130mm stem, then you should be able to get at least a custom stem that would get you equally comfortable with drops. Depending on the rise of your current stem and the rise/sweep (if any) of your current flatbar, it seems like drop-bar-ready stems tend to be roughly 25-deg steeper and 45mm shorter than an equivalent flat bar stem.

-Geoff


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

i like the handling and feel of my ibis (i want a thorn but that's another chapter of my biking saga) but want to extend my reach to the bars. i'm guessing a 120/ 25 and a drop bar would extend the reach by a couple of cm. i dunno if i will be able to lift the bike and throw it around over roots as easy as i do with the drops though


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

ssmike said:


> Ibis (during the Wes Williams days) was custom bending Specialized RM-3 bars into the Ibis bar. Basically a criterium bend bar with slightly flared (not nearly as much as the WTB) drop. The Ibis bars are what are pictured on my Salsa and Ibis above. I preferred the Ibis to the WTB because the Ibis was more compatible with bar con shifters. The WTB worked great with their special inboard adapters - similar to the Kelly adapters. My Salsa with WTB drops and WTB shifter adapters are pictured here http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?postid=38717#poststop
> 
> Hey Geoff and Mike, and all,
> 
> ...


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

cursivearmy said:


> Hey Geoff and Mike, and all,
> 
> These shifter adapters were made by Chuck at Pacific Coast Cycles, where Mike worked at. Chuck used a WTB band mount from Multimounts, and had DKG i believe?, machine the aluminum plate, that would then hold vertically, a set of 93-94 XT or XTR 8spd Rapid Fire levers! kinda the new-er multimount. I bought my pair from Chuck in 98 and i think he still had some left. i haven't used mine yet, still waiting for the right project.
> 
> ...


Yep, I remeber installing a lot of those babies. Great set up. I was into friction at the time and only use the WTB/Suntour friction inboard set-up. DKG - yep. I also wrote an article on setting up drop bars for Mountain Biking Magazine in the 90? Might have to dig that one up too. Who needs a bong for flashbacks when we have this forum! Thanks.


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

ssmike said:


> Yep, I remeber installing a lot of those babies. Great set up. I was into friction at the time and only use the WTB/Suntour friction inboard set-up. DKG - yep. I also wrote an article on setting up drop bars for Mountain Biking Magazine in the 90? Might have to dig that one up too. Who needs a bong for flashbacks when we have this forum! Thanks.


hehe, you said, er never mind. Heck yeah, dig up that article, i'b love to read it. I just dug up a copy of the 2nd Annual Suntour Pearl Pass Seminar from 83, that Chuck sent me. Man that compilation sure has some good early info in it.

over and out
nate


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

cursivearmy said:


> hehe, you said, er never mind. Heck yeah, dig up that article, i'b love to read it. I just dug up a copy of the 2nd Annual Suntour Pearl Pass Seminar from 83, that Chuck sent me. Man that compilation sure has some good early info in it.
> 
> over and out
> nate


Here's a digital photo of the first page 1991 was the year. There are 3 other pages. Not sure how it will come out here, but here goes.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Here's another drop bar photo I found. My first drop set-up with a Bridgestone Dirt Drop stem, WTB bar and WTB inboard Suntour shifters. Backdrop is Big Pine Mountain area above Santa Barbara.


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

*thanks mike!*



ssmike said:


> Here's another drop bar photo I found. My first drop set-up with a Bridgestone Dirt Drop stem, WTB bar and WTB inboard Suntour shifters. Backdrop is Big Pine Mountain area above Santa Barbara.


mike, nice artical, i could read it just fine. he, so were your suntour shifters on the actual WTB Multi Mounts or were they on the mount without the forward facing adaptor?
just curious.

man, you've got some great photos and info.

thanks

over and out
nate


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## seely (Jan 20, 2004)

As of the 2003 catalogue, QBP still had the Dirtdrops listed as available for order. Haven't checked the '04 yet, but we just got it last week. So check with your LBS if you want the real Dirtdrops.


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

*yeah but*



seely said:


> As of the 2003 catalogue, QBP still had the Dirtdrops listed as available for order. Haven't checked the '04 yet, but we just got it last week. So check with your LBS if you want the real Dirtdrops.


QBP is out of DirtDrops, and so are most supply companies. Just go on-line and check the actual availability.

I agree, you should check with your LBS, they are the real deal, but as far as ordering DirtDrops, they are out. Unless the LBS already has them in stock in the shop. i wish they did.

over and out
nate


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

cursivearmy said:


> i could read it just fine. he, so were your suntour shifters on the actual WTB Multi Mounts or were they on the mount without the forward facing adaptor?
> just curious.


Well if you could read that, then you've got better eyes than me. Maybe you can see the next three pages. If I recall, the mount consisted of a WTB made band to fit the Suntour shifter base (because the diameter difference between the drop and flat bar). So it was a WTB band, Suntour base, WTB forward positioning adapter and then the Suntour thumbie. The forward adapter had three counter sunk holes so it could be rotated for position. The holes held a ball bearing that was sandwiched between the Suntour base and WTB adapter so the whole shootin match wouldn't rotate.

That blue box with the WTB bars has a unique shifting system. It had the WTB band, Suntour base, DKG adapter, and a Shimano Rapid Fire (remember those - push/push) shifter. It actually worked great for a drop bar set-up. Thumbs only. Push/push. The bike all that was on was a really beautiful yellow/maroon Salsa owned by a friend. The rider in the photo descending the granite boulder is Charlie Cunningham.

Do you like the RockShox ad? 
Mike


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## cursivearmy (Jan 26, 2004)

*thanks!*

if you just sit back a bit, it's not that tough to read. Thanks for taking the time to scan your article and share it with everyone on the board. You wrote the article very well, and informative, that should answer quite a few folks questions on how to set them up if they still have the parts.

i'm stoked that i have a pair of the Pacific Coast Cycles "shiftease" adapters, thanks Chuck. can't wait to use them. Your article just confirms that Chuck's shop was at the center off all the truly great,in my opinion, ideas and thoughts about bikes.

You can tell that one pic is Charlie, classic.

that rock shox ad really sticks out doesn't it.

nice work mike

over and out
nate


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Great article. I've ridden a cross bike a decent amount but have never done it on a MTB. I'll have to give it a try. 

Great pic of the Tomes.

3.5 pounds for a flat bar, stem, and controls setup! Yikes! Those are some heavy parts!


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> Great article. I've ridden a cross bike a decent amount but have never done it on a MTB. I'll have to give it a try.
> 
> Great pic of the Tomes.
> 
> 3.5 pounds for a flat bar, stem, and controls setup! Yikes! Those are some heavy parts!


Thanks. Don't know who to attribute the Tomac photo to, but it wasn't mine. 3.5 lbs for crmo quill stem, alloy bar of the day in '91. Parts is much lighter these days.


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## victorthewombat (Jan 12, 2004)

EricH. said:


> I recall that original drop bar users(pre wtb dirt drops) were doing custom bending.
> 
> Can someone verify this or comment on the potential for compromising the integrity?
> 
> I would think someone like Steve Cook or maybe Wes Williams would be able to answer this.


I can comment on this...Charlie Cunningham has a long thought process on why Cinelli bars were best for making the flared modification. There was a touring model in the early 80's that was very thick in the drop section. In addition, it used a 25.4 mm od thickness in the flat section, an optional sleeve was available for 26.0.

I may be wrong, but I recall that IBIS DDs were manufactured by Nitto. Specialized was contracted with to produce the WTB RM-2.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

victorthewombat said:


> I may be wrong, but I recall that IBIS DDs were manufactured by Nitto. Specialized was contracted with to produce the WTB RM-2.


Nitto probably was the actual maker of the Ibis bars, but they also all carried a Specialized sticker - I think the Ibis bar was the RM-3.


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