# Surprised by so many being priced out of MTB



## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

I’ve read a lot of post about the increase in prices. I agree everything is so much more expensive. But when I started looking at new bikes and getting back into it, I have to disagree somewhat based on what your paying for and getting compared to bikes of the past. Mind you, I just recently bought a Tallboy V4 AL R kit. $4200. +$300 for taxes from my buddies LBS. Normally I’d buy online to forgo paying taxes.
Anyway I went back to the archives of my 08 Turner 5 spot and know for a fact that my TB is way ahead of the Turner in ride and capabilities other than weight. Plus it’s a 29r and has a few extra features like the dropper, shorter stem, longer bars that the Spot didn’t have. But the Spot was top of the line back then. Here is the build out of the Spot. Except I have all sram XO instead of Shimano and I had carbon stem and bars with DT Swiss hubs and mavic rims. So not too far off from this build
While the TB doesn’t have the most expensive component build it still has tried and true sram performance. Smooth crisp shifting and quiet. Wouldn’t expect anything less.
So yes top of the line now would be 10k I get that. But for a bit over half the price of my 08 Turner Spot, I have a new Geo 22 TB.
Maybe being out of the game for 10+ years has allowed for me to look at the market differently. Where if I continued riding thru the years I may have felt the need to continue with top of the line. Sure it would be nice to shave some weight but I’m not letting it spoil anything. I feel like I’m back in the game for cheaper than I was expecting. Just my 2 cents.

_Admin edit: photo added for newsletter







_


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Have you ever considered what it's like to be poor?


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## Helmut Molde (5 mo ago)

"Have you ever considered what it's like to be poor?"


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## Super E (Nov 5, 2004)

In 2002 I bought a top end Mtb for $1400 (on sale - which you never see anymore), my wages (from hard work mind you) have increased 2.6x since then, a similar bike today is going for $8-10k which is 5.7x an increase (more than double compared to my income). There’s no way I can afford that kind of pricing today. I’m unsure who can afford those bikes.


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## Helmut Molde (5 mo ago)

Super E said:


> In 2002 I bought a top end Mtb for $1400 (on sale - which you never see anymore), my wages (from hard work mind you) have increased 2.6x since then, a similar bike today is going for $8-10k which is 5.7x an increase (more than double compared to my income). There’s no way I can afford that kind of pricing today. I’m unsure who can afford those bikes.


The same people who have a house, a truck & SUV in the driveway, a pool, a dog/cat, 3 kids, all the cable bells & whistles. No one I know.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

Super E said:


> There’s no way I can afford that kind of pricing today. I’m unsure who can afford those bikes.


Dentists


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## Tiiiimmmmber (May 6, 2020)

I heard they only buy Yetis


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Since we are going down this road, my Jamis XC bike with a fox fork, full xt except crank, mavic branded rims, was 1,500. It was a hardtail. That was 05.


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## rtsideup (Mar 21, 2012)

I know it's daunting but if you do some research and smart buying it's not that unreasonable. Look for a one year old bike (not a shop demo, those things are ridden hard and put away wet all season long) with a top notch frame and suspension, upgrade the other stuff bit by bit off of E-Bay. Should be able to get into good modern bike for 2-3k. 
I know it's not full on poor mans territory but it's way cheaper than; golf, motocross, hang gliding, skiing, waterskiing, 4x4, following Phish, ect.
Gottsta' pay to play!


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

In 2000 I bought a Santa Cruz Bullit. At the time when I bought it the retail cost was $7500CAD. A modern bike for $7500CAD is way better. It is lighter, works better, rides better, and is much more durable.


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## hoolie (Sep 17, 2010)

I saved my Covid stimulus checks, $2600. I get another $1000(?) from Gavin Newsom next week. My old Ripmo will sell for $3400. Thats a windfall of $7000. My new Ripmo V2S, XT build arrives next week or so, seems free. It’s like a FREE upgrade for selling my old bike. Weird. Gotta love the USA. Oh, yes, I’m poor according to Local statistics. but my work truck is 2006, so priorities, I guess. I think new bikes are rad! New cars? No interest.


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## hoolie (Sep 17, 2010)

rtsideup said:


> I know it's daunting but if you do some research and smart buying it's not that unreasonable. Look for a one year old bike (not a shop demo, those things are ridden hard and put away wet all season long) with a top notch frame and suspension, upgrade the other stuff bit by bit off of E-Bay. Should be able to get into good modern bike for 2-3k.
> I know it's not full on poor mans territory but it's way cheaper than; golf, motocross, hang gliding, skiing, waterskiing, 4x4, following Phish, ect.
> Gottsta' pay to play!


Is Hang Gliding expensive? Who knew. Looks so cool. I’ve been intrigued since I was a kid, in the 1970’s and some hang gliders landed on our little league field In Santa Venetia, CA. I said “where did you come from?” , and the guy just pointed up to the top of the hill (China Camp). Then in College, Chico, CA, we were Mt biking in 1980’s, up in Bidwell Park. We heard drums playing, echoing throughout the canyon. They stopped, then 2 hang gliders ran their rigs off a cliff, caught an updraft, and us bikers were amazed! It was really neat to see. It’s such a cool looking thing.


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## Smartattack (8 mo ago)

I spent 10k this year alone on bikes and I am legit pretty poor. It's really only as far away as making questionable choices in life. Will I have heating oil this winter? 🤷. I'll keep warm thinking about busting out the bikes in spring.


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## rtsideup (Mar 21, 2012)

More expensive than entry level mtn biking!
Pretty sure that no one wants cheep hang gliding gear.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

rtsideup said:


> I know it's daunting but if you do some research and smart buying it's not that unreasonable. Look for a one year old bike (not a shop demo, those things are ridden hard and put away wet all season long) with a top notch frame and suspension, upgrade the other stuff bit by bit off of E-Bay. Should be able to get into good modern bike for 2-3k.
> I know it's not full on poor mans territory but it's way cheaper than; golf, motocross, hang gliding, skiing, waterskiing, 4x4, following Phish, ect.
> Gottsta' pay to play!


This right here. My first FS was a Jamis Dakar XLT. Student in school working part time and slowly paid for components to build up the frame, while I rode my GT Pantera. Rode the Jamis for several years. Then I bought my 5 spot Frame with shock. And again I slowly built that up when funds permitted. Then sold the Jamis Frame to help fund the build up and swapped over some stuff but mostly thru hard work bought all top of the line components. eBay was my friend in a lot of my purchases. By this time I was out of school and working full time. Rode the Turner for many years. Until finally getting into it again. So yea, I’m at a point in my life where I have the money, but I don’t need a $10k bike. I’m not racing. But compared to what I’ve spent in the past on bike frames and parts, my recent purchase was cheaper. As I said earlier, if I was looking to stay top of line like in the past, then yes it’s more expensive. But for myself it wasn’t necessary. Gonna have a blast on my new bike.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Disc golf is cheaper. So, there's that.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

dysfunction said:


> Disc golf is cheaper. So, there's that.


Not if you’re doing it on a dentist bike


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## k2rider1964 (Apr 29, 2010)

Nobody is being priced out...unless people think they HAVE to have a top end bike to ride. The $600 hardtails of today are much better bikes than the $600 bikes when I started out. Minimum wage when I started working was $3.15 an hour. Nowadays, the Arby's....ARBY's!! in my hometown is offering 5-6 times that to start.


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## rtonthat (11 mo ago)

Helmut Molde said:


> The same people who have a house, a truck & SUV in the driveway, a pool, a dog/cat, 3 kids, all the cable bells & whistles. No one I know.


I would guess a good portion of folks on this board meet that criteria. Mountain biking is not a cheap sport/hobby.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

so I was just about to post how randomly was looking an old Bike magazine from 2016 and how the Hightower CC XX1 w/ Enve carbon hoops was only $5800.... seemed outrageous... double check and I put on my reading glasses and can see it reads $9800. so like never mind...


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

In 2005 I bought my Stumpjumper Disc HT for $1,900. 

Adjusted for inflation that’s nearly $3,000 today. 

For that $3,000 today, I could get a bike that would walk all over that bike. 

Pretty sure the Ripley AF’s were going for less than that a few weeks ago. 

Stop crying that a voluntary sport, done for pleasure, has the ability to get expensive. 

The fact is, it’s only expensive if you want it to be. I’ve seen plenty of people on trail that have bikes that cost a fraction of mine that still have a huge smile on their face. 

I enjoyed cycling a ton when I was poor, I still enjoy it a ton now that I’m not poor. Now I just make more expensive mistakes.


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## Blue Dot Trail (May 30, 2018)

If you think mountain bikes are stupid expensive right now, you should see what kind of laughable prices houses are going for….


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Or get into Motorsport


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## natas1321 (Nov 4, 2017)

Helmut Molde said:


> The same people who have a house, a truck & SUV in the driveway, a pool, a dog/cat, 3 kids, all the cable bells & whistles. No one I know.


I can afford a top of the line build but it's because I don't have the three kids, just one and no pool or cat. No SUV either but the trucks are older and paid off as well. 

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk


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## rtsideup (Mar 21, 2012)

dysfunction said:


> Disc golf is cheaper. So, there's that.


This!
25$ gets you a putter, mid-range, and driver. Gas money....
Best bang-for-your-buck sport on the market!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Sir kayakalot said:


> Dentists


Must be s $hitload of dentists out there. Most people who are really into mountain biking have nice bikes.



dysfunction said:


> Disc golf is cheaper. So, there's that.



Heck yeah!


Mountain biking is exorbitant in comparison.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

For the money, mountain biking can take you places lots of folks wont ever get to witness in a car. Yes hiking can get you there but riding is more fun.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

Super E said:


> In 2002 I bought a top end Mtb for $1400 (on sale - which you never see anymore), my wages (from hard work mind you) have increased 2.6x since then, a similar bike today is going for $8-10k which is 5.7x an increase (more than double compared to my income). There’s no way I can afford that kind of pricing today. I’m unsure who can afford those bikes.


Me, though I wouldn't buy something with that level kit. What I can afford and what I can justify are two very different things.

I wonder who can afford those $70,000 pickups but there are plenty of those around. Probably more than there are $10,000 bikes.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

dysfunction said:


> Disc golf is cheaper. So, there's that.


Man, I dunno. I had to buy my nephew a couple of new drivers that got lost in trees. That cost me almost $40!


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

sacrefrancais said:


> Man, I dunno. I had to buy my nephew a couple of new drivers that got lost in trees. That cost me almost $40!


Don't throw them into the trees. 

Or, carry a lacrosse ball.


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## eshew (Jan 30, 2004)

Lol bikes have always been expensive. You're a arguably getting more for your money these days than 20 years ago


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

rtsideup said:


> This!
> 25$ gets you a putter, mid-range, and driver. Gas money....
> Best bang-for-your-buck sport on the market!


Yeah, but I think this misses out on the biggest draw of golf golf, driving golf carts drunk. Pretty sure that's why everyone does it.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Jayem said:


> Yeah, but I think this misses out on the biggest draw of golf golf, driving golf carts drunk. Pretty sure that's why everyone does it.


There are golf courses with baskets. 

Winning!

Otherwise, all the fun of hiking and an Easter egg hunt combined!


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## LanceWeaklegs (Dec 24, 2019)

people will live 10 to a house and eat Mac and cheese every day to get a new bike every year or two


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Pretty much everyone I know can comfortably afford toys, and it's been that way even since I was on my own before HS ended, in college & starting my career. 
My bartender friends, waiter friends. Construction friends, guys that worked at the local shop, mechanics, & so forth could all afford motorcycles, an old boat, and bicycles easily. 
I suspect a lot of people just live in economically depressed areas and just think it's normal to be poor.


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

Super E said:


> my wages (from hard work mind you)


wages are not a reflection of effort.


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## 2supple (Aug 29, 2020)

Sir kayakalot said:


> Dentists


Eh. My wife's a dentist. If you factor her student loans I make more than she does and I only did four years of college. I guess business school payed off (although I was pretty inebriated for most of it)


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## WhiteDLite (Mar 4, 2016)

tdc_worm said:


> wages are not a reflection of effort.


if you make an effort to make more money you will succeed. You may hate what you do and people you work with or for, you can easily make more money.

However, in life you can also try as hard as you can and harder than everyone else and still fail, and that’s okay too.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Tallboy723 said:


> I’ve read a lot of post about the increase in prices. I agree everything is so much more expensive. But when I started looking at new bikes and getting back into it, I have to disagree somewhat based on what your paying for and getting compared to bikes of the past. Mind you, I just recently bought a Tallboy V4 AL R kit. $4200. +$300 for taxes from my buddies LBS. Normally I’d buy online to forgo paying taxes.
> Anyway I went back to the archives of my 08 Turner 5 spot and know for a fact that my TB is way ahead of the Turner in ride and capabilities other than weight. Plus it’s a 29r and has a few extra features like the dropper, shorter stem, longer bars that the Spot didn’t have. But the Spot was top of the line back then. Here is the build out of the Spot. Except I have all sram XO instead of Shimano and I had carbon stem and bars with DT Swiss hubs and mavic rims. So not too far off from this build
> While the TB doesn’t have the most expensive component build it still has tried and true sram performance. Smooth crisp shifting and quiet. Wouldn’t expect anything less.
> So yes top of the line now would be 10k I get that. But for a bit over half the price of my 08 Turner Spot, I have a new Geo 22 TB.
> Maybe being out of the game for 10+ years has allowed for me to look at the market differently. Where if I continued riding thru the years I may have felt the need to continue with top of the line. Sure it would be nice to shave some weight but I’m not letting it spoil anything. I feel like I’m back in the game for cheaper than I was expecting. Just my 2 cents.


I do get a chuckle when folks compare a 1995 automobile to a 2022... Bikes have changed in similar ways over the model years. 

Some prices for production rigs is just silly which takes me right back to CAD and generating a set of blueprints with callouts and shall statement pages. Annnnnd saving a ton in the process.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

I just don’t buy “new” bikes. My bikes have some nice parts on them…but they are all prev gen models. I did buy them new…but as new old stock. I’m ok with not having cutting edge geo on my bikes. Right now I’m casually looking for a Trust Message fork. I’ve been seeing them for as low as $350.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

This has nothing to do with anything, but in ‘92 a top of the line XTR Adroit was over $3k. With no suspension! (Old man grumbles at clouds). 
Point is, there were always pricey Mt. bikes.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

In 93ish I had a blinged out lightspeed full suspension. I had upwards of 6k into it. Mavic drivetrain, Hugi, Ti Spokes. That works out to $12,300 today. Just about right.


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## suburbanassault (4 mo ago)

Top of the line bikes cost more than people can or willing to spend, yes.

But the entry level bikes can be good nowadays. Hydroformed al frame, front suspension that actually works, disc brakes. Would have been the dream back in the day.


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## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

AKamp said:


> In 93ish I had a blinged out lightspeed full suspension. I had upwards of 6k into it. Mavic drivetrain, Hugi, Ti Spokes. That works out to $12,300 today. Just about right.


Crap, I forgot to mention that was my price on a shop pro form. Maybe $5k?


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## joe2022 (8 mo ago)

His priorities is himself, nothing wrong with that. Luckily it's for a healthy habit, MTBing. A better choice than i made at his age.

Pics of bike?

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## plummet (Jul 8, 2005)

20 years ago I literally knew everyone in my town with a flash bike. Now every man and his dog are riding around on $10k nzd + bikes. It is crazy time. 

I remember the groms used to turn up and race on a clapped out all hardtail with the grips falling off with 2 inches of play in the headset and bottom bracket. Those little bastards would rattle down the track with big grins on their faces. 

Now the groms turn up with a $10k + bike all blinged out to ******y and back. 

Bikes might be more expensive now, but there's certainly more cash being dropped on bikes these days and thats not even talking about e-bikes. 

What the Actual fark is up with ebike pricing? A base model full sus with shithouse not even slx is $8500nzd. If you want the top of the line s-works ebike thats $26k... Whaaaaaaat! I can buy 2 moto's for the price of 1 sworks E,,,,, 

Faaaaaaaaark.


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## dryk1t (7 mo ago)

I own a $3k bike and a $7k bike.

My well off friends and not well off friends alike, who don't ride bikes, think its absolutely hilarious and stupid to pay more than a grand for a bike, many can't believe a bike is worth more than what you buy from Target or similar toy stores.

Reality is... we are hyper focused on what value / quality is in these communities. A enthusiast dropping $3k or more on a bike has lost reality of what society perceives as a bikes value.

Most people in these communities forget, their hobby is meaningless to most people, if not an annoyance.

This place is no different to any other positive feedback loop system and people get trapped quickly into the spending hobby, with many being better with their wallet usage than the bike they bought.

-----

Other side of the coin is, a great deal of society is hugely in debt. Most my lower income friends don't own anything, its all loans. We have built up a culture of have now, pay later.


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## TOGALOCK (8 mo ago)

Geeeez, you guys are making me feel guilty for my $10K MTB, $12K dirtbike, $70K truck, house, 2 boats, and that’s not even counting my kids bikes all while carrying no debt. I didn’t even go to college!


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

dryk1t said:


> I own a $3k bike and a $7k bike.
> 
> My well off friends and not well off friends alike, who don't ride bikes, think its absolutely hilarious and stupid to pay more than a grand for a bike, many can't believe a bike is worth more than what you buy from Target or similar toy stores.
> 
> ...


Those of us who can pay cash for most things got that way by believing that if you can't pay cash for something, you can't afford it. There is nothing wrong with delayed gratification.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Rev Bubba said:


> Those of us who can pay cash for most things got that way by believing that if you can't pay cash for something, you can't afford it. There is nothing wrong with delayed gratification.


Your chances of being financially successful are much more related to the opportunities you have access to than to how thrifty you are.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

Hard work, ambition, and thriftiness goes a LONG way


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Sir kayakalot said:


> Hard work, ambition, and thriftiness goes a LONG way


plus compounding interest


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

hoolie said:


> ...My new Ripmo V2S, XT build arrives next week or so, seems free...I’m poor according to Local statistics...


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Rev Bubba said:


> Those of us who can pay cash for most things got that way by believing that if you can't pay cash for something, you can't afford it. There is nothing wrong with delayed gratification.


It's an interesting irony that self made wealthy people generally (not always but generally) can buy expensive bikes but don't while poor people tend to buy expensive bikes on easy consumer credit.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

BadgerOne said:


> View attachment 2003747


It does raise an interesting point in the context of this discussion of barriers to entry to MTB. Or put differently, is using $2500 in Covid relief to buy a new bike much different than German subsidies for new bike purchases?

Also did someone really just suggest that only poor people buy expensive bikes? lol


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

tick_magnet said:


> It's an interesting irony that self made wealthy people generally (not always but generally) can buy expensive bikes but don't while poor people tend to buy expensive bikes on easy consumer credit.




I don't know about that, IME rich people generally buy expensive $hit and poor people don't.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't know about that, IME rich people generally buy expensive $hit and poor people don't.


If you are talking about everything under the sun, yes. More expensive houses, more expensive furniture to go with that house, more expensive education. But a lot of that spending will be on stuff that returns value or is an investment. But lots of wealthy people also got there by not blowing money on toys on credit.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

tick_magnet said:


> If you are talking about everything under the sun, yes. More expensive houses, more expensive furniture to go with that house, more expensive education. But a lot of that spending will be on stuff that returns value or is an investment. But lots of wealthy people also got there by not blowing money on toys on credit.




Of course they don't buy their expensive toys on credit, why would they? People with $$$ who are into riding are not afraid to spend top dollar for full xx1 and carbon. If a wealthy person buys a lower end bike it just means they're not really into riding.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Of course they don't buy their expensive toys on credit, why would they? People with $$$ who are into riding are not afraid to spend top dollar for full xx1 and carbon. If a wealthy person buys a lower end bike it just means they're not really into riding.


Which is why I said self-made. There is a certain mindset that goes with a person that became wealthy through hard work and money management and delayed gratification. And even when they are rich, they don't blow money that doesn't return value. My father in law is a millionaire many times over. He still buys lots of stuff at Marshall's because of the mindset that made him a millionaire. To him, it's not about being able to afford it. It's also whether it returns value.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Of course they don't buy their expensive toys on credit, why would they? People with $$$ who are into riding are not afraid to spend top dollar for full xx1 and carbon. If a wealthy person buys a lower end bike it just means they're not really into riding.


People believe what they want to believe. The myth that rich people got that way because they're more deserving or tried harder or are less wasteful than poor people runs super deep. And is super gross.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

sacrefrancais said:


> People believe what they want to believe. The myth that rich people got that way because they're more deserving or tried harder or are less wasteful than poor people runs super deep. And is super gross.


So they’re just lucky?


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Sir kayakalot said:


> So they’re just lucky?


No I'm not suggesting that putting in the work is unimportant, only that without the opportunity, not being wasteful_ is_.


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## BadgerOne (Jul 17, 2015)

tick_magnet said:


> It's an interesting irony that self made wealthy people generally (not always but generally) can buy expensive bikes but don't while poor people tend to buy expensive bikes on easy consumer credit.


They didn't get where they are today by making frivolous purchases of discretionary items....so there is that. Income demographics are fluid, people move in and out of the 'classes' all the time. But the spending mindset of most people never change...that's why some lottery winners are broke in a few years, while the unassuming plumber next door was able to retire before 50 with a robust portfolio. No one at the defined 'poverty' level in the US - not that many in the US have any idea what actual poverty looks like - who has the mindset to buy a new pro-level bicycle is ever going to leave the poverty class unless they receive a windfall...and they'll be right back into the poverty class soon enough.

A bit of a tangent there, and a bigger conversation to be sure.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Super E said:


> In 2002 I bought a top end Mtb for $1400 (on sale - which you never see anymore), my wages (from hard work mind you) have increased 2.6x since then, a similar bike today is going for $8-10k which is 5.7x an increase (more than double compared to my income). There’s no way I can afford that kind of pricing today. I’m unsure who can afford those bikes.


The ability to finance bikes has changed the game. Even a guy flipping burgers can make the payment on a $10k bike.

There's also been a lot of "fake money" floating around with housing values going through the roof, and people borrowing against their homes. That's all coming to an end. Lots of people living at the edge of what they can make payments on are going to be facing some pretty hard times soon. Those of us who have lived below our means will get through the coming recession without breaking a sweat, just like we did last time.

That said, nobody should consider themselves "priced out" of the sport. There's a ton of used bikes out there for less than $500 that are actually pretty damn good, especially compared to what we used to ride 20-30 years ago. I just bought one myself for $130.00. Look for my thread "cheap bike challenge" for more examples.


.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Of course you need opportunity. I'm not suggesting there is no luck involved. But there are plenty of people with opportunity that don't become rich. For example, will I ever become as rich as my father in law? Probably not. I'm not willing to do some of the things he does like never splurging on something fun, and not buying a fancy Starbucks drink on a whim or saving 40% of my income. But when I am his age, I'm not going to complain that he was "lucky" and I wasn't.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Not sure why but I'm getting a strong urge to binge watch a few seasons of "Leave it to Beaver" 🤐 

Poor people don't buy expensive bikes on credit because poor people don't have any credit.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Not sure why but I'm getting a strong urge to binge watch a few seasons of "Leave it to Beaver" 🤐
> 
> Poor people don't buy expensive bikes on credit because poor people don't have any credit.


And the reason they can't get any credit has absolutely nothing to do with their work ethic. Geez, people.

Reminds me of the old saying:

“*It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it*.”


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

sacrefrancais said:


> Your chances of being financially successful are much more related to the opportunities you have access to than to how thrifty you are.


I was raised by two blue collar workers, neither of whom graduated high school. They made sure I had the opportunities but those opportunities were something they worked for so I could have them. 

Their delayed gratification was generational. This was the way it was with both parents families. Some at my parents level, went to college but by the time it reached my generation, almost all went to college or learned a skilled trade.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Rev Bubba said:


> I was raised by two blue collar workers, neither of whom graduated high school. They made sure I had the opportunities but those opportunities were something they worked for so I could have them.


So you should understand how someone just like you, but without loving parents to provide such opportunities, regardless of how thrifty or hard working they may be, may not turn out as successful as yourself.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Comon JB and sacredfracais. Are you really saying that the notion that there are lot of people financing toys on credit because they can't pay cash for it is a fiction of one's imagination and that they don't really exist? Given the context, we are not talking about truly poor people here stuck in cycles of poverty. We are talking about the balance sheet poor.


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## plepgeat (Dec 23, 2021)

Sir kayakalot said:


> Dentists


Hey now - I have a house, a wife, a kid, three cars, four cats, and an Tallboy 4 Carbon R and I am NOT a dentist.

I'm a lawyer.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

tick_magnet said:


> Comon JB and sacredfracais. Are you really saying that the notion that there are lot of people financing toys on credit because they can't pay cash for it is a fiction of one's imagination and that they don't really exist? Given the context, we are not talking about truly poor people here stuck in cycles of poverty. We are talking about the balance sheet poor.




Anecdotal for sure but based on my own experience in bike shops (~30 years) people's bike choices _*generally *_reflect their income. No one is buying top of the line equipment they can't afford on credit. Public school teachers with kids buy Deore level bikes. Conversely people buying top shelf carbon with xx1 can all easily afford it, and do it without blinking an eye,

$50,000 pickup trucks? That's a different story.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

plepgeat said:


> Hey now - I have a house, a wife, a kid, three cars, four cats, and an Tallboy 4 Carbon R and I am NOT a dentist.
> 
> I'm a lawyer.


That's why you have the "R" and not the "S". I am neither a dentist nor a lawyer but rather, a retired MBA, and I have the carbon "S" but an aluminum road bike. Damn, I knew I shouldn't have paid cash ...


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## fogby (7 mo ago)

sacrefrancais said:


> No I'm not suggesting that putting in the work is unimportant, only that without the opportunity, not being wasteful_ is_.


I'm interpreting this as wealthy people were "given" the opportunity - that they didn't create the opportunity. If so, pure hogwash unless your rich mommy/daddy gave you the opportunity.

The US has got to realize there's still opportunity for everyone if you have the work ethic, required skillset/natural ability and willingness to take a chance. Fact is, not everyone has the above qualities. Sefl-assessment is a *****.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Anecdotal for sure but based on my own experience in bike shops (~30 years) people's bike choices _*generally *_reflect their income. No one is buying top of the line equipment they can't afford on credit. Public school teachers with kids buy Deore level bikes. Conversely people buying top shelf carbon with xx1 can all easily afford it, and do it without blinking an eye,
> 
> $50,000 pickup trucks? That's a different story.


Sounds spot on. Americans certainly love to rely on credit moreso than other nations, and that does go to wastefulness to an extent. But I know just as many wealthy folks who live beyond their means as poorer folks. I'm not convinced that price of new gear is the biggest barrier to entry, anyhow. Older used bikes are practically given away sometimes. Unless you think beginners should be given 10k e-bikes or some such nonsense.

And yes, generally speaking wealthy people were given more opportunities than poor people. That's really not very controversial.


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## Schril (Oct 28, 2010)

dysfunction said:


> Disc golf is cheaper. So, there's that.


One of the many reasons I took it up!


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

Schril said:


> One of the many reasons I took it up!


Naked trail running is cheaper still. Nothing to invest in at all and no entry fees.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Rev Bubba said:


> Naked trail running is cheaper still. Nothing to invest in at all and no entry fees.


On that note, it's too pretty out here in NC not to go shred some trails!


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## angerbot (5 mo ago)

fogby said:


> I'm interpreting this as wealthy people were "given" the opportunity - that they didn't create the opportunity. If so, pure hogwash unless your rich mommy/daddy gave you the opportunity.
> 
> The US has got to realize there's still opportunity for everyone if you have the work ethic, required skillset/natural ability and willingness to take a chance. Fact is, not everyone has the above qualities. Sefl-assessment is a ***.


One of the biggest predictors of your household income, employment status and many other factors is simply... the zipcode where you're born. It's not just "mommy and daddy gave you money" but little things like your parents can afford a tutor when you struggle in school, you get shortlisted for a job interview because your dad knows the manager somewhere, your friends are successful and open doors to you because their families are _also_ well off, you have the chance to go to university... the list of ways in which being born in the right place gives you a leg up is very long.

The only people who refuse to admit this in my experience are those who are uncomfortable with the idea that some part of their success is not in fact because they're the smartest hard working upper-crust of society. I'm comfortable with it though - if I couldn't have lived at home or had my parents to help me with tuition I might still have achieved the same level of wealth and success as I have now, but it certainly would have been a lot harder.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

dryk1t said:


> I own a $3k bike and a $7k bike.
> 
> My well off friends and not well off friends alike, who don't ride bikes, think its absolutely hilarious and stupid to pay more than a grand for a bike, many can't believe a bike is worth more than what you buy from Target or similar toy stores.
> 
> ...


Annd, the number of people that took out a "mortgage" on that 2022 vehicle that had a sticker price of 80, so that now will set em back 110-120 through the life of that mortgage.
C'est La Vie!



Rev Bubba said:


> Those of us who can pay cash for most things got that way by believing that if you can't pay cash for something, you can't afford it. There is nothing wrong with delayed gratification.


I refer to it as earned gratification.


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## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

sacrefrancais said:


> On that note, it's too pretty out here in NC not to go shred some trails!


I am about to head out for a ride too. Have fun.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Disc golfers are usually seen on Deore bikes.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Rev Bubba said:


> I am about to head out for a ride too. Have fun.


Thanks, you too!


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## Helmut Molde (5 mo ago)

plepgeat said:


> Hey now - I have a house, a wife, a kid, three cars, four cats, and an Tallboy 4 Carbon R and I am NOT a dentist.
> 
> I'm a lawyer.


Never too late to change professions.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

J.B. Weld said:


> Disc golfers are usually seen on Deore bikes.


You ain't been around these parts, evidently.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

BansheeRune said:


> You ain't been around these parts, evidently.




No I reckon I ain't


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Rev Bubba said:


> Naked trail running is cheaper still. Nothing to invest in at all and no entry fees.


Shoes get expensive


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## fogby (7 mo ago)

angerbot said:


> One of the biggest predictors of your household income, employment status and many other factors is simply... the zipcode where you're born. It's not just "mommy and daddy gave you money" but little things like your parents can afford a tutor when you struggle in school, you get shortlisted for a job interview because your dad knows the manager somewhere, your friends are successful and open doors to you because their families are _also_ well off, you have the chance to go to university... the list of ways in which being born in the right place gives you a leg up is very long.
> 
> The only people who refuse to admit this in my experience are those who are uncomfortable with the idea that some part of their success is not in fact because they're the smartest hard working upper-crust of society. I'm comfortable with it though - if I couldn't have lived at home or had my parents to help me with tuition I might still have achieved the same level of wealth and success as I have now, but it certainly would have been a lot harder.


News flash - life isn't fair. Some folks have advantages from birth due to their zip code, natural ability, etc. My point is there's still opportunity for everyone in the US. Maybe not everyone can or will take this opportunity to be successful. I never said each person would get identical results from the same level of effort/ability.....

As a country we certainly can try to lesson these advantages, but the mindset needs to be one that I'll overcome any disadvantage I may have & not whine about reasons I can't succeed. And assess your own abilities/situation to maximize what YOU can, not what you see others doing.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

angerbot said:


> One of the biggest predictors of your household income, employment status and many other factors is simply... the zipcode where you're born. It's not just "mommy and daddy gave you money" but little things like your parents can afford a tutor when you struggle in school, you get shortlisted for a job interview because your dad knows the manager somewhere, your friends are successful and open doors to you because their families are _also_ well off, you have the chance to go to university... the list of ways in which being born in the right place gives you a leg up is very long.
> 
> The only people who refuse to admit this in my experience are those who are uncomfortable with the idea that some part of their success is not in fact because they're the smartest hard working upper-crust of society. I'm comfortable with it though - if I couldn't have lived at home or had my parents to help me with tuition I might still have achieved the same level of wealth and success as I have now, but it certainly would have been a lot harder.


It goes even deeper than that. I recently listened to a podcast with a Harvard economist who did a study that followed people from kindergarten to adulthood, and he found that just the quality of a person's kindergarten experience could result in a difference of $300,000 in career earnings.


.


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## schnee (Oct 15, 2005)

Funny, a buddy of mine just got a hardtail around $1,500 equivalent cost in the US, and is having a blast - and he'll probably ride that bike for 5-10 years.

I think a lot of people are spoiled rotten.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

Rev Bubba said:


> Those of us who can pay cash for most things got that way by believing that if you can't pay cash for something, you can't afford it. There is nothing wrong with delayed gratification.


Yep, I finance what I can and always pay it off. Even when I have the money to buy outright. I take advantage of what I can. But I never pay late fees or interest. My house and vehicles are the exception. But my Jeep and motorcycles have been paid off for 5+ years. Only car payment is my wife’s. But we’ll be paying that off come December.


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

_CJ said:


> It goes even deeper than that. I recently listened to a podcast with a Harvard economist who did a study that followed people from kindergarten to adulthood, and he found that just the quality of a person's kindergarten experience could result in a difference of $300,000 in career earnings.
> .


hahaha. equality of opportunity does not equate to equality of outcome. if so, siblings under the same roof with the same two parents would always have equal outcomes. personal agency is a thing. and so is luck, which, by definition is being prepared when an opportunity presents itself. 

of we could just all sign up to be victims.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

tdc_worm said:


> hahaha. equality of opportunity does not equate to equality of outcome. if so, siblings under the same roof with the same two parents would always have equal outcomes.



Statistically they do.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> Statistically they do.


Yep. I guess we just ignore things for convenience


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

RS VR6 said:


> I just don’t buy “new” bikes. My bikes have some nice parts on them…but they are all prev gen models. I did buy them new…but as new old stock.


That's exactly what I did. My Slash was a heavily discounted brand new 2021.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> Statistically they do.


💯

also it’s not about removing advantages of those with privilege. It’s about providing the same advantages, and removing disadvantages, to those less fortunate.


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## Helmut Molde (5 mo ago)

dysfunction said:


> Shoes get expensive


What part of "naked" didn't you get?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Helmut Molde said:


> What part of "naked" didn't you get?


The part where I gotta step on cactus.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

Rev Bubba said:


> Those of us who can pay cash for most things got that way by believing that if you can't pay cash for something, you can't afford it. There is nothing wrong with delayed gratification.


Absolutely true!! I test rode a Yamaha Super Tenere back in 2013. I saved my rear off for 5 years and got one in 2018. while I was saving I continued to ride my 2012 Beta (used it for and adventure bike) and clapped out 2005 KTM300 on the trails.

It is difficult for those that carry debt to agree with our philosophy. The bottom line is if you are unable to pay cash for a depreciating asset, then you can't afford it.


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## FortOrdMTB (May 29, 2021)

sacrefrancais said:


> On that note, it's too pretty out here in NC not to go shred some trails!


Gotta cover bail though.


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## Streetdoctor (Oct 14, 2011)

Tallboy723 said:


> I’ve read a lot of post about the increase in prices. I agree everything is so much more expensive. But when I started looking at new bikes and getting back into it, I have to disagree somewhat based on what your paying for and getting compared to bikes of the past. Mind you, I just recently bought a Tallboy V4 AL R kit. $4200. +$300 for taxes from my buddies LBS. Normally I’d buy online to forgo paying taxes.
> Anyway I went back to the archives of my 08 Turner 5 spot and know for a fact that my TB is way ahead of the Turner in ride and capabilities other than weight. Plus it’s a 29r and has a few extra features like the dropper, shorter stem, longer bars that the Spot didn’t have. But the Spot was top of the line back then. Here is the build out of the Spot. Except I have all sram XO instead of Shimano and I had carbon stem and bars with DT Swiss hubs and mavic rims. So not too far off from this build
> While the TB doesn’t have the most expensive component build it still has tried and true sram performance. Smooth crisp shifting and quiet. Wouldn’t expect anything less.
> So yes top of the line now would be 10k I get that. But for a bit over half the price of my 08 Turner Spot, I have a new Geo 22 TB.
> Maybe being out of the game for 10+ years has allowed for me to look at the market differently. Where if I continued riding thru the years I may have felt the need to continue with top of the line. Sure it would be nice to shave some weight but I’m not letting it spoil anything. I feel like I’m back in the game for cheaper than I was expecting. Just my 2 cents.


I can buy a brand new Husqvarna TE300i for cheaper than a megatower. Or any other dirt bike for that matter...


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## Glee217 (6 mo ago)

Tallboy723 said:


> I’ve read a lot of post about the increase in prices. I agree everything is so much more expensive. But when I started looking at new bikes and getting back into it, I have to disagree somewhat based on what your paying for and getting compared to bikes of the past. Mind you, I just recently bought a Tallboy V4 AL R kit. $4200. +$300 for taxes from my buddies LBS. Normally I’d buy online to forgo paying taxes.
> Anyway I went back to the archives of my 08 Turner 5 spot and know for a fact that my TB is way ahead of the Turner in ride and capabilities other than weight. Plus it’s a 29r and has a few extra features like the dropper, shorter stem, longer bars that the Spot didn’t have. But the Spot was top of the line back then. Here is the build out of the Spot. Except I have all sram XO instead of Shimano and I had carbon stem and bars with DT Swiss hubs and mavic rims. So not too far off from this build
> While the TB doesn’t have the most expensive component build it still has tried and true sram performance. Smooth crisp shifting and quiet. Wouldn’t expect anything less.
> So yes top of the line now would be 10k I get that. But for a bit over half the price of my 08 Turner Spot, I have a new Geo 22 TB.
> Maybe being out of the game for 10+ years has allowed for me to look at the market differently. Where if I continued riding thru the years I may have felt the need to continue with top of the line. Sure it would be nice to shave some weight but I’m not letting it spoil anything. I feel like I’m back in the game for cheaper than I was expecting. Just my 2 cents.


Which bike shops charges no tax on Santa Cruz?

Any other bike shops you know of for non Santa Cruz as well?


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

ballisticexchris said:


> Absolutely true!! I test rode a Yamaha Super Tenere back in 2013. I saved my rear off for 5 years and got one in 2018. while I was saving I continued to ride my 2012 Beta (used it for and adventure bike) and clapped out 2005 KTM300 on the trails.
> 
> It is difficult for those that carry debt to agree with our philosophy. The bottom line is if you are unable to pay cash for a depreciating asset, then you can't afford it.


Wut, you KTM has the clap?


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

sacrefrancais said:


> 💯
> 
> also it’s not about removing advantages of those with privilege. It’s about providing the same advantages, and removing disadvantages, to those less fortunate.


People need to remove the disadvantage themselves. You can't force 2 parent homes, strong family values and self responsibility. Better education doesn't come from schools, It comes from parent taking an interest in their child and in their education, not leaving to others to provide. Its a generational change, not an instant fix


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## LetsGoOutside (Sep 4, 2005)

I bought a 2001 Rocky Mountain hardtail with LX 3x9 and a Manitou SX fork off my local craigslist for $75 (work MTB challenge event). Gave that bike a tuneup, swapped the bar/stem/seat to my liking and took her out on some scenic blue trails. I wasn’t significantly slower and didn’t have any less fun that I do on my regular rides.

Now I don’t want to ride park laps or the Whole Enchilada on that bike and my Yetis aren’t going anywhere. But for new riders who are looking to casually have fun, there’s no real need to drop 7k on a bike.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Helmut Molde said:


> Never too late to change professions.


I will apply for the Astronaut Corps tomorrow.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

fogby said:


> the mindset needs to be one that I'll overcome any disadvantage I may have & not whine about reasons I can't succeed. And assess your own abilities/situation to maximize what YOU can, not what you see others doing.


Does it have to be legal? Asking for a friend.


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Ducman said:


> People need to remove the disadvantage themselves. You can't force 2 parent homes, strong family values and self responsibility. Better education doesn't come from schools, It comes from parent taking an interest in their child and in their education, not leaving to others to provide. Its a generational change, not an instant fix


I live in what’s considered a wealthy area. When COVID hit and kids were moved to remote learning I was blown away to find out several parents told teachers to just fail their kids because they were not going to help them with school work.

This is in an area where people assume kids are well cared for and come from good families.

It doesn’t matter what’s in your bank account or what zip code you live in, parents need to make their kids the #1 priority.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

tdc_worm said:


> hahaha. equality of opportunity does not equate to equality of outcome. if so, siblings under the same roof with the same two parents would always have equal outcomes. personal agency is a thing. and so is luck, which, by definition is being prepared when an opportunity presents itself.
> 
> of we could just all sign up to be victims.


Bro, this isn't a theory. This is actual factual data, garnered from actual tax returns supplied by the IRS that were cross referenced with rankings of teachers those people had. Thousands of them. Yes, there is individual variation among the sample group, but _on average_, those with better kindergarten teachers made more money throughout their careers.

This guy, Raj Chetty, is one of the most brilliant minds in economics today, but yeah, I'm sure you know better. 


.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

BansheeRune said:


> Wut, you KTM has the clap?


LOL!! Actually it was the biggest money pit of a motorcycle I ever owned. Partly due to racing and also the fact it was a KTM.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I personally know about 7 illegal immigrants (I work in trucking and they are common) that eventually became legal, built businesses, and are millionaires now. In their late 40s to very early 50s.
Hell my old housing contractor wouldn't return my texts so I called him a couple of weeks ago and he was flipping 2 homes and had 2 crews doing clean up. He knocked on my door looking for work 7 years ago and his English was terrible. He had his underage daughter with him.
The reality is that the average American born kid is an incredibly entitled lazy uninspired human being who is specifically unsuccessful because in reality they had absolutely every comfort and opportunity in the world and have no idea what it's actually like to be hungry, uneducated, with no real opportunity. Then when someone doesn't just hand them a crap load of money they think it's unfair.
This country literally provides every opportunity in the world to not just be comfortable, but rich. The only ones with legitimate excuses are those with severe handicaps and of course those that prioritize other experiences and aren't complaining anyways.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

_CJ said:


> Bro, this isn't a theory. This is actual factual data, garnered from actual tax returns supplied by the IRS that were cross referenced with rankings of teachers those people had. Thousands of them. Yes, there is individual variation among the sample group, but _on average_, those with better kindergarten teachers made more money throughout their careers.
> 
> This guy, Raj Chetty, is one of the most brilliant minds in economics today, but yeah, I'm sure you know better.
> 
> ...


How were the teachers better?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Ahhhhh yeah 


Can we just shut this down, before it hits the political shitshow it's becoming?

Empathy is gone.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Suns_PSD said:


> I personally know about 7 illegal immigrants (I work in trucking and they are common) that eventually became legal, built businesses, and are millionaires now. In their late 40s to very early 50s.
> Hell my old housing contractor wouldn't return my texts so I called him a couple of weeks ago and he was flipping 2 homes and had 2 crews doing clean up. He knocked on my door looking for work 7 years ago and his English was terrible. He had his underage daughter with him.
> The reality is that the average American born kid is an incredibly entitled lazy uninspired human being who is specifically unsuccessful because in reality they had absolutely every comfort and opportunity in the world and have no idea what it's actually like to be hungry, uneducated, with no real opportunity. Then when someone doesn't just hand them a crap load of money they think it's unfair.
> This country literally provides every opportunity in the world to not just be comfortable, but rich. The only ones with legitimate excuses are those with severe handicaps and if course those that prioritize other experiences and aren't complaining.




A few anomalies does not make the zip code statistic untrue. Of course it's possible to pull oneself up by their bootstraps but also it's extremely likely for someone born in certain zip codes to effortlessly skate through life in the mid or upper class zones. Meanwhile if that same person were born in a different (wrong) zip code they would need to struggle mightily to make it to the same place financially.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

dysfunction said:


> Ahhhhh yeah
> 
> 
> Can we just shut this down, before it hits the political shitshow it's becoming?
> ...


You are only one mentioning politics. No need to stop a discussion just because you don't like it. You are free to leave


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Ducman said:


> You are only one mentioning politics. No need to stop a discussion just because you don't like it. You are free to leave


It'll be here before you know it. Its already effectively a partisan argument.


Over mountain bike prices. Seriously


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

ballisticexchris said:


> LOL!! Actually it was the biggest money pit of a motorcycle I ever owned. Partly due to racing and also the fact it was a KTM.


in Australia (not Austria btw) KTM stands for "Keep Throwing Money"


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## shwndh (Nov 20, 2004)

People are making $18hr at McDonalds now. Everything has gotten more expensive; not just bikes. But they are way better than the old ones and a Lot to choose from. Top of the line yesterday is blown out the water by mid-level of today. I used to only want XT but now I’d roll with Deore if it was on the right bike. Truth is you don’t need top of the line to exceed yesterdays top of the line. But from a manufacturers standpoint; if there’s a market for $12,000 bikes, why not make them and cash in? Got money to burn?, we got fuel.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

There are two different kinds of people in the world. One worries about long term success, the other worries about their next immediate paycheck. While I understand many do need to worry about food on the table and paying rent that was due a week ago this isn’t really what I am getting at. I am talking about people who have the basics covered, probably most of the people in this thread. If you are a week late on rent you shouldnt be buying any bike unless it is to get you to work.
The people who worry about their next paycheck have the attitude of “if you pay me more I will do this”. I literally had an assistant ask for a raise when we asked her to take over ordering gloves and masks. And now she wonders why we won’t spend 10k on sending her for continuing education. She thinks it is unfair that she doesn’t get the same opportunities as some of the others in our practice. That first thing she turned down was the opportunity.
The people who worry about long term success jump on every opportunity they get, not just to better themselves but to better those around them. In my experience these are always the people who come out ahead in the long run. When Arizona passed expanded function dental assistants, these were the people who we sent to school. Now Arizona has passed Dental Therapists, I am eagerly awaiting the board to outline what that will entail and hopefully I can send some of the same people to school. Opportunities are there for people who realize them.
For almost all of my career as a “rich dentist” (as people on this board like to complain about) I have travelled for work. My in-laws were always, “how long do you HAVE to do this or that”. I always told them I don’t have to do anything, but we need the help here or there. This has afforded many opportunities that others in our group haven’t gotten. They wonder why they don’t get these opportunities when they are unwilling to work a closing shift instead of opening. Many People who like to clock in and clock out simply don’t see the big picture of what it takes to get ahead. 
Now for those who would like to say it was handed to me, and some of my in laws like to say that. This is a second career, I grew up very blue collar. My Dad couldn’t read or write, my mom worked for the post office. I was fortunate enough to get a nursing degree in college andI meet my wife who is absolutely amazing. After 10 years as a nurse, 2 kids, a house and rental property, we (my wife and I) made the decision to give up 150k/year in income, have me move across the country while she stayed to help her parents, take out 200k in student loans and change careers. It was a $800,000 gamble. There was absolutely nothing easy about any of it. No one gave me the opportunity, it wasn’t because I was white or male, it was created through hard work and taking chances, not by waiting for someone to ask me if I wanted to go to dental school. 
Now young dentists are giving up 10 years of their life while their friends are partying, riding everyday and not spending their life’s in school. Many are easily into the 600/700k range in student loans to come out making 150k a year. Very few can afford a yeti.
I am writing this sitting at the airport waiting for my delayed flight to continue to build the company, because that is what is needed. I probably have 5-6hrs worth of work to do while traveling. But hey, everything is easy for us “rich dentists”. 
I hope you all have fun on your ride today.
By the way, I am not complaining, I am extraordinarily fortunate. I am simply tired of people who think that life is supposed to be fair and that it doesn’t take good decisions and hard work to get ahead.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

LetsGoOutside said:


> I bought a 2001 Rocky Mountain hardtail with LX 3x9 and a Manitou SX fork off my local craigslist for $75 (work MTB challenge event). Gave that bike a tuneup, swapped the bar/stem/seat to my liking and took her out on some scenic blue trails. I wasn’t significantly slower and didn’t have any less fun that I do on my regular rides.
> 
> Now I don’t want to ride park laps or the Whole Enchilada on that bike and my Yetis aren’t going anywhere. But for new riders who are looking to casually have fun, there’s no real need to drop 7k on a bike.


People used to ride the Whole Enchilada on those bikes.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Remember "The Jerk"?

“- Gas Station Attendant: Boy, get to work in there!

Navin: But sir, I don't even work here.
Gas Station Attendant: Not even for $1.10 an hour?”

Great movie.


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## diycarbonbikes (May 22, 2019)

I think one of the difficulties, especially if people are racing, is that they are getting priced out of competitive MTB. Its ridiculous to buy a full carbon bike for $8,000. You can check out diycarbonbikes.com which cuts out the middle man and can build up full carbon light bikes for more like 2500-3500 instead of 6000-10000.


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## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

J.B. Weld said:


> Statistically they do.


can you provide a link to the data? i pretend to have none, and am basing my position off of the annecdotal experience of my self and the folks i have been surrounded with through all stages of my life. there seems to be wide spectrum of outcomes amongst those family groups. they could all be outliers. 



dysfunction said:


> Yep. I guess we just ignore things for convenience


thanks for putting words in my mouth. i cannot ignore my own experiences.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

FortOrdMTB said:


> Gotta cover bail though.


No trails were shred in my shredding. Bone dry today for once!


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

_CJ said:


> Bro, this isn't a theory. This is actual factual data, garnered from actual tax returns supplied by the IRS that were cross referenced with rankings of teachers those people had. Thousands of them. Yes, there is individual variation among the sample group, but _on average_, those with better kindergarten teachers made more money throughout their careers.
> 
> This guy, Raj Chetty, is one of the most brilliant minds in economics today, but yeah, I'm sure you know better.
> 
> ...


when you lead a response with "Bro" you immediately gain credibility points.

correlation does not necessarily imply causation. and what criteria was used to graded a kindergarten teacher as "better?" I am sure there is some sort of standard....maybe Raj Chetty shared it and you can share it?


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

diycarbonbikes said:


> I think one of the difficulties, especially if people are racing, is that they are getting priced out of competitive MTB. Its ridiculous to buy a full carbon bike for $8,000. You can check out diycarbonbikes.com which cuts out the middle man and can build up full carbon light bikes for more like 2500-3500 instead of 6000-10000.


Almost $4,400 for a knock off bike:










Or, I can buy the real thing, with a much better fork and shock for a bit more:


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

I never went to kindergarten at all.
Cry me a river.


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## angerbot (5 mo ago)

tdc_worm said:


> when you lead a response with "Bro" you immediately gain credibility points.
> 
> correlation does not necessarily imply causation. and what criteria was used to graded a kindergarten teacher as "better?" I am sure there is some sort of standard....maybe Raj Chetty shared it and you can share it?


I'm going to take your asking for data as a good faith effort to learn, so here: The Opportunity Atlas. 

This is a study based on census data done by the US census bureau and harvard and brown universities. I recommend zooming out to the national level, opening up the distribution view in the upper right and then flipping between low-middle-high parent income. The differences are absolutely stark and the data is very clear: being born to a poor family makes you _much more likely_ to remain poor. That doesn't mean that people aren't accountable for their own actions but it is important to acknowledge that there are lots of people who start life with one hand tied behind their backs and advocate for changes that reduce some of that gap. A rising tide lifts all ships and taking steps to give future generations more of the opportunities that many of us who are fortunate enough to be dropping thousands of dollars on bikes had is the right thing to do, IMO. 

Here's the "household income at 35" for people born to parents who are considered low income (25th percentile) vs high income (75th percentile) nationally. There are certainly outliers in the low income group who are making good money, but look at how many compared to the high income. The two possibilities to explain this are basically all these people who happened to be born to low income families are lazy, don't work hard, entitled etc, or there's actually some inherent advantage to growing up well-off. I know which one I consider more likely.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

angerbot said:


> I'm going to take your asking for data as a good faith effort to learn, so here: The Opportunity Atlas.
> 
> This is a study based on census data done by the US census bureau and harvard and brown universities. I recommend zooming out to the national level, opening up the distribution view in the upper right and then flipping between low-middle-high parent income. The differences are absolutely stark and the data is very clear: being born to a poor family makes you _much more likely_ to remain poor. That doesn't mean that people aren't accountable for their own actions but it is important to acknowledge that there are lots of people who start life with one hand tied behind their backs and advocate for *changes that reduce some of that gap*. A rising tide lifts all ships and taking steps to give future generations more of the opportunities that many of us who are fortunate enough to be dropping thousands of dollars on bikes had is the right thing to do, IMO.


What changes are needed?


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## gunnrunner (Aug 15, 2006)

_CJ said:


> It goes even deeper than that. I recently listened to a podcast with a Harvard economist who did a study that followed people from kindergarten to adulthood, and he found that just the quality of a person's kindergarten experience could result in a difference of $300,000 in career earnings.


No! What they said was this: 

"When he and his colleagues looked at what the students--now in their early thirties--recently earned, they found that those who had the best kindergarten teachers make more money. “We estimate that if you move from an average teacher to an excellent teacher, each student gains an average of $1,000 per year in earnings,” Chetty says. “If you add that up over a student’s working life, and adjust for inflation and interest rates, you get a total lifetime gain of around $16,000 per child.” In a classroom with an average of 20 students, then, an excellent teacher means a total gain in earnings of $320,000 for the entire class. And students from small classes experienced other important advantages: they were more likely to attend college, to own a home, and to save for retirement."


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## LetsGoOutside (Sep 4, 2005)

AKamp said:


> People used to ride the Whole Enchilada on those bikes.


I’ve been riding mountain bikes for 25 years, this build is almost identical to something I would have raced on in 2001 as a college kid. 

I’m well aware.

My statement was that I wouldn’t want to ride it on that bike, not that I couldn’t


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

AKamp said:


> There are two different kinds of people in the world. One worries about long term success, the other worries about their next immediate paycheck. While I understand many do need to worry about food on the table and paying rent that was due a week ago this isn’t really what I am getting at. I am talking about people who have the basics covered, probably most of the people in this thread. If you are a week late on rent you shouldnt be buying any bike unless it is to get you to work.
> The people who worry about their next paycheck have the attitude of “if you pay me more I will do this”. I literally had an assistant ask for a raise when we asked her to take over ordering gloves and masks. And now she wonders why we won’t spend 10k on sending her for continuing education. She thinks it is unfair that she doesn’t get the same opportunities as some of the others in our practice. That first thing she turned down was the opportunity.
> The people who worry about long term success jump on every opportunity they get, not just to better themselves but to better those around them. In my experience these are always the people who come out ahead in the long run. When Arizona passed expanded function dental assistants, these were the people who we sent to school. Now Arizona has passed Dental Therapists, I am eagerly awaiting the board to outline what that will entail and hopefully I can send some of the same people to school. Opportunities are there for people who realize them.
> For almost all of my career as a “rich dentist” (as people on this board like to complain about) I have travelled for work. My in-laws were always, “how long do you HAVE to do this or that”. I always told them I don’t have to do anything, but we need the help here or there. This has afforded many opportunities that others in our group haven’t gotten. They wonder why they don’t get these opportunities when they are unwilling to work a closing shift instead of opening. Many People who like to clock in and clock out simply don’t see the big picture of what it takes to get ahead.
> ...


Say what you want guys, but THIS ^^^^^^ is the mindset that should be taught in schools


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Ducman said:


> What changes are needed?


Systemic ones.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

gunnrunner said:


> No! What they said was this:
> 
> "When he and his colleagues looked at what the students--now in their early thirties--recently earned, they found that those who had the best kindergarten teachers make more money. “We estimate that if you move from an average teacher to an excellent teacher, each student gains an average of $1,000 per year in earnings,” Chetty says. “If you add that up over a student’s working life, and adjust for inflation and interest rates, you get a total lifetime gain of around $16,000 per child.” In a classroom with an average of 20 students, then, an excellent teacher means a total gain in earnings of $320,000 for the entire class. And students from small classes experienced other important advantages: they were more likely to attend college, to own a home, and to save for retirement."


That's _almost_ literally what he just said.

ETA: Good catch though, since it would be $16,000 over a career. But the point is how close the link is, IME.


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## angerbot (5 mo ago)

Ducman said:


> What changes are needed?


Hopefully without getting myself labelled as a socialist commie pinko, here are a few policies that I believe would help. I'm certain there are others, but focusing on equality in education would go a long way I think. Things like:


Not funding schools primarily from property taxes. All this does is mean that wealthy people who live in more expensive homes _also_ have better funded schools.
Expand funding or donate to food banks and things like school breakfast clubs. It's hard for parents to give their children proper support when they're worried about putting food on the table, and kids who go to school hungry perform worse.
(this one is more outside looking in, seeing as I'm Canadian) the university funding model in the US is insane. Government backed loans that can't be discharged have made tuition so insanely unaffordable for the average person that it just seems absolutely unsustainable.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Ducman said:


> What changes are needed?


This is a topic that books could be written upon and presidents have failed trying to accomplish.


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## gunnrunner (Aug 15, 2006)

sacrefrancais said:


> That's _almost_ literally what he just said.
> 
> ETA: Good catch though, since it would be more like $50,000 over a career. But the point is how close the link is, IME.


No, he said "the quality of a person's kindergarten experience could result in a difference of $300,000 in career earnings."

The study said this was the amount for the ENTIRE class, not one individual. 

I hate it when people cite a study and then totally murder what was said, or totally miss the point.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

gunnrunner said:


> No, he said "the quality of a person's kindergarten experience could result in a difference of $300,000 in career earnings."
> 
> The study said this was the amount for the ENTIRE class, not one individual.
> 
> I hate it when people cite a study and then totally murder what was said, or totally miss the point.


That's fair. It's 16k over your career for having a crappier teacher. But keep in mind, that's how much your career suffers _for just that one thing_. You might lose 16k or more over your career for any number of other disadvantages in addition to this one in particular.


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## Shinscrape (5 mo ago)

I'll chime in on this one, I've bought a bike before with the last 300 dollars I had in my account in my early twenties and had it stolen I was going to use it to commute to work. After that I worked laborious jobs and put myself through university. I will never own a bike over 4k I've decided that there's a point of diminished returns on bikes and being new at mtb makes that point really low. It's kind of ironic I was raised below the poverty level but now am comfortably middle class. Half of my country is almost at insolvency. Times are pretty scary out there and somehow going from 20 plus years of working for peanuts I am doing better financially but still have a mentality that you shouldn't buy stuff you can't really afford. I think that loan rates should be fixed so people don't get hosed badly on houses and cars. I won't divulge into the current capitalist system but I think no matter what end of the political spectrum you are at you don't want the average person to be unhealthy, carrying loads of debt, and homeless.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

angerbot said:


> Expand funding or donate to food banks and things like school breakfast clubs. It's hard for parents to give their children proper support when they're worried about putting food on the table, and kids who go to school hungry perform worse.
> (this one is more outside looking in, seeing as I'm Canadian) the university funding model in the US is insane. Government backed loans that can't be discharged have made tuition so insanely unaffordable for the average person that it just seems absolutely unsustainable.


In the US, the National School Lunch Program has been going since 1946. 
My state as well as a handful of others actually provide free breakfast and lunch meals to all kids in school.

Higher education is a racket in the US, but rather than doing anything to address the actual issues, apparently it's a better plan to print up a bunch of money and buy votes with it.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

Angerbot said:


> Not funding schools primarily from property taxes. All this does is mean that wealthy people who live in more expensive homes _also_ have better funded schools.
> Expand funding or donate to food banks and things like school breakfast clubs. It's hard for parents to give their children proper support when they're worried about putting food on the table, and kids who go to school hungry perform worse.
> (this one is more outside looking in, seeing as I'm Canadian) the university funding model in the US is insane. Government backed loans that can't be discharged have made tuition so insanely unaffordable for the average person that it just seems absolutely unsustainable.


 Throwing money at a school is great if people take advantage of the situation, thrown money at schools while no one cares about education is a waste.


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## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

I'm just a 54yr old OLD guy with some personal experiences that might open one younger person's eyes....

I bought my 1st "starter" home when I was 23 and my mortgage interest rate was 12%. I was house poor for quite a few years but still raised a family and actually lived in that "starter" home for 29yrs and eventually paid it off early.

My wife, daughter and I owned only 4 autos during that entire time period. When we sold the house last year for a massive profit and moved into our current forever home, my wife's 03 Accord had 277k miles on the odometer and no paint on the hood and roof. My 99 Dakota had 311k miles.... but had perfect paint. 

My current phone is a Samsung Galaxy S4 and my wife has a "newer" S10. We don't eat out more than twice per month and we never buy alcohol while eating out and have done that for our entire married life of 31 plus years.

My current one and only bike is a 2019 Santa Cruz Chameleon and it replaced a 2014 9er RIP 9. I have no plans to buy a new bike anytime soon and maintain the hell out of my bike so it will out live me.

I like reading reviews of the new bikes as much as anyone, but there is not a single one that would make me have any more fun riding than what currently sits in my garage..... Learn to love and maintain what you already have. 

It's all about priorities and rolling up to the trailhead in the latest 50k Tacoma with a Yeti in the back and the latest iPhone in your pocket all while struggling to pay next month's rent, should not be on anyone's list of priorities. The future you will thank the **** out of today's you. 

^ Old guy out, but hopefully just 1 person actually heard what I said instead of already formatting their rebuttal in their head on why they are different.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> In the US, the National School Lunch Program has been going since 1946.
> My state as well as a handful of others actually provide free breakfast and lunch meals to all kids in school.
> 
> Higher education is a racket in the US, but rather than doing anything to address the actual issues, apparently it's a better plan to print up a bunch of money and buy votes with it.


Pretty sure we can do better than a handful of places give kids meals.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

sacrefrancais said:


> Pretty sure we can do better than a handful of places give kids meals.


It does, 95% of schools participate, feeding 30 million kids annually


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Ducman said:


> It does, 95% of schools participate, feeding 30 million kids annually


What's that, an effective social safety net program you say?


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

sacrefrancais said:


> What's that, an effective social safety net program you say?


Does it get food to kids, yep. Is there tremendous amount of fraud and waste because there is no verification of need..yep

It is a solution to a symptom and not a solution to the root cause and as such it will never end


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

My bike costs more than my car. I love my bike and my car just needs to get me around reliably.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

angerbot said:


> Hopefully without getting myself labelled as a socialist commie pinko, here are a few policies that I believe would help. I'm certain there are others, but focusing on equality in education would go a long way I think. Things like:
> 
> 
> Not funding schools primarily from property taxes. All this does is mean that wealthy people who live in more expensive homes _also_ have better funded schools.
> ...


You know, the moment student loans became a thing (as they are today), the universities opted to ramp up tuitions at an alarming rate since a fellow can file chapter 7 or 11 and walk down the hallway and file for a student loan and receive it in record time. Right back into the rut that the 8ball ran em over in just before the chapter filing took place. Now, enter "affordable care act" and what happened is precisely identical. Premiums went to the moon due to subsidy. Go figure!
Gone are the days of a student (myself) self funding their education. I earned three BS degrees on my own and never once did I borrow a red cent to do it. The sad part is how destructive the SL and ACA have been to folks self funding. The mortgage is 50% less on my river front property than health care insurance premiums are today.

Go figure! 



alexbn921 said:


> My bike costs more than my car. I love my bike and my car just needs to get me around reliably.


Sounds so familiar. Love my bicycle collection and my 1973 one ton Chevy Van gets me where my bikes and I please. I do have appreciation of a 427 between the fenders...


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

gunnrunner said:


> No! What they said was this:
> 
> "When he and his colleagues looked at what the students--now in their early thirties--recently earned, they found that those who had the best kindergarten teachers make more money. “We estimate that if you move from an average teacher to an excellent teacher, each student gains an average of $1,000 per year in earnings,” Chetty says. “If you add that up over a student’s working life, and adjust for inflation and interest rates, you get a total lifetime gain of around $16,000 per child.” In a classroom with an average of 20 students, then, an excellent teacher means a total gain in earnings of $320,000 for the entire class. And students from small classes experienced other important advantages: they were more likely to attend college, to own a home, and to save for retirement."


Interesting. I think you're sighting an article about teacher pay, which is not what I was talking about. I was just going off what I remember of the podcast I listened to, and what he said over the course of those 90 minutes or so.

In any case, here's an article that backs up what I was saying.





__





The $300,000 Kindergarten Teacher | Curriculum Management Solutions, Inc.






curriculumsolutions.net





"_Children assigned to good classrooms (experienced, capable teachers, smaller class sizes) were earning 3% more than those from not-so-good classrooms. This amounted to a $300,000 increase in total earnings over the student’s career._"

.


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## Bike Whisperer (Aug 7, 2012)

I worked in bike shops from 1995 to 2004, here is some perspective.

In 1995 the nicest MTB production bikes we sold were $3.6k, today that equates to $7k. That would be aluminum frames, full XTR, cantilever brakes, elastomer forks with some oil damping, and air rear shock.

In 2004 the nicest production MTB I remember was around $5k, today that equates to $7.8k. Aluminum frame, full XTR, disc brakes, air shock and fork.

Not counting ebikes, you can still get a wicked bike for $7k...one that would far outperform a top end bike from 20 years ago. That said, top end non ebikes are pushing $10k or more. But those bikes are full of technology that we were only dreaming of two decades ago.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

BansheeRune said:


> You know, the moment student loans became a thing (as they are today), the universities opted to ramp up tuitions at an alarming rate since a fellow can file chapter 7 or 11 and walk down the hallway and file for a student loan and receive it in record time. Right back into the rut that the 8ball ran em over in just before the chapter filing took place. Now, enter "affordable care act" and what happened is precisely identical. Premiums went to the moon due to subsidy. Go figure!
> Gone are the days of a student (myself) self funding their education. I earned three BS degrees on my own and never once did I borrow a red cent to do it. The sad part is how destructive the SL and ACA have been to folks self funding. The mortgage is 50% less on my river front property than health care insurance premiums are today.
> 
> Go figure!
> ...


Except student loans isn't something that filing for bankruptcy will help you with.


----------



## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

sacrefrancais said:


> Except student loans isn't something that filing for bankruptcy will help you with.


That was not remotely the point, but Uncle Joe is trying to give handouts...

The point is based on when the C7 was filed, which is immediately prior to filing for a student loan. If the loan could be discharged (which it cannot), it would have had to manifest prior to the C7 filing.
There, I said it!!


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Ducman said:


> Does it get food to kids, yep. Is there tremendous amount of fraud and waste because there is no verification of need..yep
> 
> It is a solution to a symptom and not a solution to the root cause and as such it will never end


How would you verify need?

If it’s off income, I know of several kids in my area that count on that food otherwise they wouldn’t eat a breakfast or lunch, meanwhile their parents make over $100k a year.

One of them sits next to my younger daughter in school. We send my daughter with extra food every day to make sure she has something extra to eat and doesn’t feel left out.

Money doesn’t suddenly make everyone start caring about their kids.

I don’t care what the reason is, the food needs to be available for ANY child that’s hungry.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Hiking boots or a good pair of trail shoes run $100-150, that’s the least expensive way to go explore off road.

Mountain bikes come in all flavors, the fancier you get, the more they cost.

Prices increase over time, like all things.

Complaining about the price of something falls on deaf ears, it’s your money, so it’s your decision as to what you choose to buy.

Every persons reality is different.

Ride or don’t ride.


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## fogby (7 mo ago)

angerbot said:


> Hopefully without getting myself labelled as a socialist commie pinko, here are a few policies that I believe would help. I'm certain there are others, but focusing on equality in education would go a long way I think. Things like:
> 
> 
> Not funding schools primarily from property taxes. All this does is mean that wealthy people who live in more expensive homes _also_ have better funded schools.
> ...


The first point is somewhat correct in certain states, and 100% incorrect in others. In many states, federal and state funding makes up the majority of expenditures for K-12 education in the States.

Second point is essentially 100% incorrect for all K-12 students in the US. There's free lunch and breakfast programs. Some districts actually have breakfasts available on the buses so students can eat immediately once they get on the bus and be ready to learn. There are some Saturday/Sunday/weekday dinner programs but not enough.

Agree 100% with the third point.

I've spent my entire career dealing with public education finance. The one thing I can assure you is that throwing money at the problem is not the solution. Very, very low bang for the buck. Plenty of statistics to prove this when talking about the total population of students - sure there are small quantity exceptions (success stories). Educators and elected school board officials know this & will normally admit when in one-on-one conversations. If I knew the answer, I'd be a Nobel Laureate, but I can tell you what hasn't worked historically.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

FrankS29 said:


> How would you verify need?
> 
> If it’s off income, I know of several kids in my area that count on that food otherwise they wouldn’t eat a breakfast or lunch, meanwhile their parents make over $100k a year.
> 
> ...


Perhaps they should get rid of the 2022 Audi and buy a used car for 10k and relocate to a home that fits their income level. Frankly, the bread winner gets laid up for 60 or 90 day and foreclosure will be a notice on the front door.

Cannot disagree with the food part of things tho'


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

Many of these programs continue thru the summer at the school. At least a free lunch.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Tallboy723 said:


> Many of these programs continue thru the summer at the school. At least a free lunch.


Wait I thought there was no such thing!


----------



## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

rtonthat said:


> I would guess a good portion of folks on this board meet that criteria. Mountain biking is not a cheap sport/hobby.


Kind of a broad brush, but certainly owning a mountain bike and having access to trails is a more elite lifestyle, but wealth is not always measured by possessions.

Having access to clean water, healthy housing, and ample quality food is not even in the same ballpark as riding a mountain bike, think Maslow’s hierarchy of need.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

sacrefrancais said:


> Wait I thought there was no such thing!


Well yea. Someone is paying for it. But I pass the school and the free lunch sign every day on my way to work in the summer time.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

_CJ said:


> Interesting. I think you're sighting an article about teacher pay, which is not what I was talking about. I was just going off what I remember of the podcast I listened to, and what he said over the course of those 90 minutes or so.
> 
> In any case, here's an article that backs up what I was saying.
> 
> ...


Here is the actual study

Under the preceding assumptions, this translates into a lifetime earnings gain of approximately $39,100 for the average individual.



https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w16381/w16381.pdf


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

sacrefrancais said:


> Wait I thought there was no such thing!


It is such a thang in Colorado...
Tax payers are covering it. With TABOR (you can use google like everyone else) there was a budget surplus that was refunded to tax payers under its requirements.
Doesn't hurt my feelings that a miniscule portion of my tax bill might have helped fill the void for a kid out there. Fortunately, there is availability to help out.

How many folks have participated in making Extended Table operate? That too helps folks out that are missing a supper here and there.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Ducman said:


> Here is the actual study
> 
> Under the preceding assumptions, this translates into a lifetime earnings gain of approximately $39,100 for the average individual.
> 
> ...


Still seems like a lot for just a crappy teacher I barely remember who wiped my boogers.


----------



## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

FrankS29 said:


> How would you verify need?
> 
> If it’s off income, I know of several kids in my area that count on that food otherwise they wouldn’t eat a breakfast or lunch, meanwhile their parents make over $100k a year.
> 
> ...


Charge the parents for the food. That is what my school does. Every kid gets food. Then the parents get a bill based on income.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Ducman said:


> Charge the parents for the food. That is what my school does. Every kid gets food. Then the parents get a bill based on income.


But no one is debating _who_ should pay. Most folks agree it's a communal good.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Ducman said:


> Charge the parents for the food. That is what my school does. Every kid gets food. Then the parents get a bill based on income.


Quite a few school districts do similar.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

sacrefrancais said:


> But no one is debating _who_ should pay. Most folks agree it's a communal good.


I think who pays is important, because it reinforces self responsibility and family values. The short term goal is to make sure kids are fed. The long term goal is have parents feed their kids.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Ducman said:


> I think who pays is important, because it reinforces self responsibility and family values. The short term goal is to make sure kids are fed. The long term goal is have parents feed their kids.


The issue with that is that the more obstacles we put in place for folks to have access to similar safety net assistance (as lunch programs), like screening, testing, and judging, the more costly, bureaucratic, and wasteful the solution ultimately becomes.


----------



## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

sacrefrancais said:


> The issue with that is that the more obstacles we put in place for folks to have access to similar safety net assistance (as lunch programs), like screening, testing, and judging, the more costly, bureaucratic, and wasteful the solution ultimately becomes.


While this is an issue, at what point does responsibility of parenting become required in life? 
There is consequence to that roll in the hay, after all...


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

dysfunction said:


> Disc golf is cheaper. So, there's that.


Not if you're traveling to play courses 5000 miles away.

Adjusted for inflation, bikes cost the same as they did 25 years ago.


----------



## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

sacrefrancais said:


> The issue with that is that the more obstacles we put in place for folks to have access to similar safety net assistance (as lunch programs), like screening, testing, and judging, the more costly, bureaucratic, and wasteful the solution ultimately becomes.


It's not fair to those that pay by the rules to allow fraud because it might hurt someones feelings. That fraud takes away from those that need it and give it to people that are just scamming the system

Think how expensive the program will be if everyone was on it.


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

angerbot said:


> Hopefully without getting myself labelled as a socialist commie pinko, here are a few policies that I believe would help. I'm certain there are others, but focusing on equality in education would go a long way I think. Things like:
> 
> 
> Not funding schools primarily from property taxes. All this does is mean that wealthy people who live in more expensive homes _also_ have better funded schools.
> ...


I believe in equal opportunity & healthcare for all children. That's not only fair, but also good for America.

In TX we already redistribute property taxes to poor school districts through what is called the Robinhood plan, nearly 1 billion dollars just last year in fact was taken from Austin parents/ students and redistributed primarily to rural school districts. Most think the money goes to minority communities, but I grew up in a minority TX school before Robinhood and it was excellent due to the chemical plants paying high property taxes. Most of the money is distributed to country school districts.

Here is the thing though, it doesn't actually do much at all. Statistically speaking, even with the high paying teachers, computer & technology access & so on they maintain high teen pregnancy rates (the actual largest predictor of low lifetime income and opportunities), low graduation rates & so on.

Furthermore because TX gives automatic entry to TX public universities to the top 10% of every school regardless of entry exam scores and as a result many students just outside of the top 10% from high performing districts can't get in, the top 10% from low performing districts then find an even larger gap to their top 10% peers from high performing districts, so they still have a high rate of failure.

My theory is that work ethic & grit combined with at least average intelligence is the most important traits that you inherit from your parents. Your parents have enough money to send you to the good school because of these genetically inherited traits. It's not the money.

And frankly, you wouldn't see such an incredibly high success rate from immigrants (well above native born, even though they often arrive with little money/ education/ or support network) if money was the primary factor determining success.


----------



## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

BansheeRune said:


> While this is an issue, at what point does responsibility of parenting become required in life?
> There is consequence to that roll in the hay, after all...


Not if you used protection.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

milehi said:


> Not if you're traveling to play courses 5000 miles away.
> 
> Adjusted for inflation, bikes cost the same as they did 25 years ago.


Well, generally when I've done that I was in that country for work anyway.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Of course they don't buy their expensive toys on credit, why would they? People with $$$ who are into riding are not afraid to spend top dollar for full xx1 and carbon. If a wealthy person buys a lower end bike it just means they're not really into riding.


Or maybe they are really into riding but are more into the ride than the equipment. I really enjoy my $700 rigid SS. It's not because I can't afford gears and suspension, I can. Full disclosure: I have a number of other bikes, though none were what we consider here to be expensive. If it all came crashing down and all I had to ride was my v-brakes 26er SS, I would still be riding. And I would still be enjoying it.


----------



## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Ducman said:


> Charge the parents for the food. That is what my school does. Every kid gets food. Then the parents get a bill based on income.


For all the non-sense our tax dollars get wasted on, I’m not about to start pitching a fit about making sure kids are eating.

Personally, I’m all for just making school breakfast and lunch free, across the board.


----------



## tdc_worm (Dec 10, 2008)

angerbot said:


> I'm going to take your asking for data as a good faith effort to learn, so here: The Opportunity Atlas.
> 
> 
> Here's the "household income at 35" for people born to parents who are considered low income (25th percentile) vs high income (75th percentile) nationally. There are certainly outliers in the low income group who are making good money, but look at how many compared to the high income. The two possibilities to explain this are basically all these people who happened to be born to low income families are lazy, don't work hard, entitled etc, or there's actually some inherent advantage to growing up well-off. I know which one I consider more likely.


it was in good faith. i think there is another possibility to explain this:

money knows how to make money, and those lessons are instilled in the children. the advantage is that experience is passed down. but this gets us in to the chicken or the egg argument. somewhere, somebody had to exercise self agency and have a desire to make money to learn the lessons they could pass down. and that part is repeatable, regardless of your familial wealth when you are a child.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

FrankS29 said:


> For all the non-sense our tax dollars get wasted on, I’m not about to start pitching a fit about making sure kids are eating.
> 
> Personally, I’m all for just making school breakfast and lunch free, across the board.


Right? It's almost as if, just maybe, we could save a whole lot of paperwork, time, and hassle if we all just agreed to provide those 2 basic meals at no cost. All share the cost, then move on.

🤯


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

dysfunction said:


> Well, generally when I've done that I was in that country for work anyway.


I always pack a disc if I'm traveling. And a bike.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

milehi said:


> I always pack a disc if I'm traveling. And a bike.


Can't always pack a bike, but I can always take discs. Meet lots of cool people on various league days. Always a great time.


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Damn, I go on a bike ride and this thread explodes! Not going to read through all those pages.

But I'll remind people of the last recession when so many "rich" people found themselves upside down in their mortgages. Yes, they were high income earners and thus rich, but they were living beyond their means so not as rich as they appeared. And when one of the wage earners lost their job, they couldn't afford their mortgage as they had so savings. If you're doing pretty well, it's pretty easy to appear really rich. What kind of car does the average self-made millionaire drive?


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

I think there are a few things going on. 

First, the upper middle class switched sports from things like golf and tennis to sports like cycling, triathlon, mountain biking, overlanding, whatever. Whether you want to call it keeping up with the Joneses or yuppie competition, they brought that attitude with them. The quality of goods is being measured by price. People will swear up and down they are not buying for status, but a huge part of of it is status symbols. These are luxury goods and they are in full Veblen goods mode. In these sports there has always been a lot of this, but now it has been amped up to extreme levels.

Second, manufacturers have taken advantage of this. A long running, high end shoe maker like Sidi has always had high prices, but now companies that just started making shoes yesterday want to position their product at the same level so they put their MSRP in a similar range. If they sell at a much lower price then they are seen as lower quality or less desirable. Sidi, of course, hikes its prices to maintain its place at the top. And now it is common for top end shoes to cost $500. The same thing happens with cycling bibs, frames, etc. The end results is a frame made from few carbon tubes costs as much as a complete motorcycle. It is objectively ridiculous.

Third, there is a wide income disparity in the U.S. Millennials love to whinge about wealth inequality but they never legitimately compare life from thirty years ago to today because it would be obvious that for basic needs people are better off. As a percentage of income, food, housing, and transportation is lower than it used to be. What they are really comparing is purchase of luxury and aspirational goods. Basically there are a lot of middle class people who feel entitled to the same goods as the upper middle class. People making $100K in middle America think they are doing pretty well until they compare themselves to someone making $240K on the coast. They have to think about buying a $1K Gamin Fenix watch while it is an incidental expense to someone making $20K/month.

Fourth, manufacturers' product prices and advertising targets the well-heeled, leaving everyone without the means to buy the top of the line with the impression they are not getting the full experience. I think this really strikes at the heart of those who have been in the sport a long time and it is part of their identity. They may have pushed things financially to always have a decent bike because it is so important to them, but now the prices have gone from $5K to $10K to $15K. They cannot make that work financially, and the kick in the nads is seeing people who got into the sport yesterday rolling around on stuff that is no longer affordable for them. People can point out all they want about how bikes are better than they used to be, you can use a $3K bike to have as much fun, and it is all about skills; but to those who mountain biking is part of their self identity it does not feel good to no longer be able to afford the top end equipment.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

chazpat said:


> Or maybe they are really into riding but are more into the ride than the equipment. I really enjoy my $700 rigid SS. It's not because I can't afford gears and suspension, I can. Full disclosure: I have a number of other bikes, though none were what we consider here to be expensive. If it all came crashing down and all I had to ride was my v-brakes 26er SS, I would still be riding. And I would still be enjoying it.


Zactly!



milehi said:


> I always pack a bowl if I'm traveling. And a bike.


fify, milehi! 😁


----------



## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

angerbot said:


> I'm going to take your asking for data as a good faith effort to learn, so here: The Opportunity Atlas.
> 
> This is a study based on census data done by the US census bureau and harvard and brown universities. I recommend zooming out to the national level, opening up the distribution view in the upper right and then flipping between low-middle-high parent income. The differences are absolutely stark and the data is very clear: being born to a poor family makes you _much more likely_ to remain poor. That doesn't mean that people aren't accountable for their own actions but it is important to acknowledge that there are lots of people who start life with one hand tied behind their backs and advocate for changes that reduce some of that gap. A rising tide lifts all ships and taking steps to give future generations more of the opportunities that many of us who are fortunate enough to be dropping thousands of dollars on bikes had is the right thing to do, IMO.
> 
> ...


Completely flawed data. You're either lazy or you're not. Opportunity is out there for anyone. I was born into a poor family. Ten years later my sister was born into a middle class family. Guess who takes care of our mom? Excuses are the bricks that build the house of failure.


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## Helmut Molde (5 mo ago)

BansheeRune said:


> It is such a thang in Colorado...
> Tax payers are covering it. With TABOR (you can use google like everyone else) there was a budget surplus that was refunded to tax payers under its requirements.
> Doesn't hurt my feelings that a miniscule portion of my tax bill might have helped fill the void for a kid out there. Fortunately, there is availability to help out.
> 
> How many folks have participated in making Extended Table operate? That too helps folks out that are missing a supper here and there.


TABOR? Why does that sound familiar?

Oh, here you go: 




(Kings X guitarist)


----------



## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

milehi said:


> I always pack a disc if I'm traveling. And a bike.




Tough decisions. Stable midrange and a hardtail I guess.


----------



## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Helmut Molde said:


> TABOR? Why does that sound familiar?
> 
> Oh, here you go:


Um, no...


----------



## gunnrunner (Aug 15, 2006)

_CJ said:


> Interesting. I think you're sighting an article about teacher pay, which is not what I was talking about. I was just going off what I remember of the podcast I listened to, and what he said over the course of those 90 minutes or so.
> 
> In any case, here's an article that backs up what I was saying.
> 
> ...


I was quoting Harvard Magazine, which I think must have paraphrased the actual study, but it was the first link I found after googling harvard and kindergarten study. It was about the same thing (not teacher pay.) Anyway, here's the link: https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2010/11/kindergarten-matters



Ducman said:


> Here is the actual study
> 
> Under the preceding assumptions, this translates into a lifetime earnings gain of approximately $39,100 for the average individual.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link to the actual study.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sacrefrancais said:


> Pretty sure we can do better than a handful of places give kids meals.


It's the entire country.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> It's the entire country.


I maintain there’s no such thing as a free lunch, even for the whole country!

/s


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sacrefrancais said:


> I maintain there’s no such thing as a free lunch, even for the whole country!
> 
> /s


LOL

I don't know about other places, but even when the schools were closed down for COVID for a year+, parents could still go and pick up free meals for their kids if they chose to.

Average public school teacher salary in the state I live in is ~$85k, with a good number of towns/cities paying an average of over $100k. For whatever it's worth.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> LOL
> 
> I don't know about other places, but even when the schools were closed down for COVID for a year+, parents could still go and pick up free meals for their kids if they chose to.
> 
> Average public school teacher salary in the state I live in is ~$85k, with a good number of towns/cities paying an average of over $100k. For whatever it's worth.


what state is this to which you refer?


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## fogby (7 mo ago)

sacrefrancais said:


> what state is this to which you refer?


This was part of a federal program. Each individual district had the opportunity to apply for this grant. The grant would allow a school food service program to give out 21 meals each week. Not all grant recipients decided to go the 21 meal option, but it was an option.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Nobody needs a bike that costs more than


Ducman said:


> Here is the actual study
> 
> Under the preceding assumptions, this translates into a lifetime earnings gain of approximately $39,100 for the average individual.
> 
> ...


hmmm, I see that's dated 2010. Perhaps there was a revision, or they revisited the topic? I mean, I specifically recall the $300k number, and then there's a recent article saying the same. And it was a recent podcast talking about it.

I don't really care enough to go looking for it. At the end of the day, the takeaway is that quality of education matters, and it carries through to adulthood from the very first schooling a child receives.


.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

fogby said:


> This was part of a federal program. Each individual district had the opportunity to apply for this grant. The grant would allow a school food service program to give out 21 meals each week. Not all grant recipients decided to go the 21 meal option, but it was an option.


The point was that 85K is nowhere near the average public school teacher salary.


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## fogby (7 mo ago)

sacrefrancais said:


> Pretty sure we can do better than a handful of places give kids meals.


Do some research on the "Child and Adult Care Food Program" - especially benefits during COVID. 

The amount of money spent on this program certainly leads one to believe more than a handful of places were providing meals.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

fogby said:


> Do some research on the "Child and Adult Care Food Program" - especially benefits during COVID.
> 
> The amount of money spent on this program certainly leads one to believe more than a handful of places were providing meals.


I gotta work on my sarcasm.


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## fogby (7 mo ago)

sacrefrancais said:


> I gotta work on my sarcasm.


I'm the idiot


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

fogby said:


> I'm the idiot


no such thing. i still prefer this to email or texts, though sarcasm just really doesn't transfer well. my bad!


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

I suspect we'll see a sharp drop in prices one day. At a minimum more options for the more competitive MTBers.


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## schnee (Oct 15, 2005)

chazpat said:


> What kind of car does the average self-made millionaire drive?


One that's reliable, reasonably priced, and completely paid off.


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

_CJ said:


> Nobody needs a bike that costs more than
> 
> 
> hmmm, I see that's dated 2010. Perhaps there was a revision, or they revisited the topic? I mean, I specifically recall the $300k number, and then there's a recent article saying the same. And it was a recent podcast talking about it.
> ...


It is a really interesting study as it takes in account for parental wealth, free lunch status, 401K, house ownership, teacher pay and mom's age at birth. Basically everything we talked here, all in one study


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

J.B. Weld said:


> Tough decisions. Stable midrange and a hardtail I guess.


My travel bike is custom high end but is singlespeed, full rigid and has V brakes. There's some places in the world where the LBS can't help you with suspension, disc brakes, or anything mountain bike related.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

chazpat said:


> Damn, I go on a bike ride and this thread explodes! Not going to read through all those pages.
> 
> But I'll remind people of the last recession when so many "rich" people found themselves upside down in their mortgages. Yes, they were high income earners and thus rich, but they were living beyond their means so not as rich as they appeared. And when one of the wage earners lost their job, they couldn't afford their mortgage as they had so savings. If you're doing pretty well, it's pretty easy to appear really rich. What kind of car does the average self-made millionaire drive?


An E class Mercedes


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

J.B. Weld said:


> Disc golfers are usually seen on Deore bikes.


I beg to differ.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

schnee said:


> One that's reliable, reasonably priced, and completely paid off.


I generally have the crappiest car in the lot. My assistants making 18-20/hr are driving 40-50k cars. I had a Mazda on order but I just cancelled it after my wife talked me out of it. She said, “the Subaru will go another year”. Of course my priorities are different then many. On another note, after waiting 19 months my Direttissimas finally showed in the mail. Not sure when brakes got so expensive but damn do they feel nice.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sacrefrancais said:


> what state is this to which you refer?


Massachusetts.



sacrefrancais said:


> The point was that 85K is nowhere near the average public school teacher salary.


It is here.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

schnee said:


> One that's............... completely paid off.



fify


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Massachusetts.
> 
> 
> 
> It is here.


is your point that we don’t want better higher paid teachers? I’m lost


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## Helmut Molde (5 mo ago)

sgltrak said:


> I beg to differ.
> View attachment 2003810


Good lard, look at those worn teeth. Looks like my dog's mouth.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Helmut Molde said:


> Good lard, look at those worn teeth. Looks like my dog's mouth.



The big ring does look gnarly but based on the rest of the photo I'm guessing it's just the lens perspective making it look that way.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sacrefrancais said:


> is your point that we don’t want better higher paid teachers? I’m lost


Seems like; I said nothing remotely to that effect. 🤷‍♂️


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Seems like; I said nothing remotely to that effect. 🤷‍♂️


So what was your point about public teachers being able to make 100k easily?


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

J.B. Weld said:


> The big ring does look gnarly but based on the rest of the photo I'm guessing it's just the lens perspective making it look that way.


Big rings used to always look like that. Has anyone noticed how there are no new chainring marks in downed trees anymore?


----------



## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I'm driving this 82 Scirocco. It gets double the gas mileage of our 20 CX5 and more than triple what my TJ Rubicon gets.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sacrefrancais said:


> So what was your point about public teachers being able to make 100k easily?


What's with putting words in my mouth? I said nothing about anyone doing anything 'easily', nor did I say anything about paying teachers less.

You actually are kinda bad at this.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> What's with putting words in my mouth? I said nothing about anyone doing anything 'easily', nor did I say anything about paying teachers less.
> 
> You actually are kinda bad at this.


fair enough. Apologies.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

milehi said:


> I'm driving this 82 Scirocco.


Scirocco was always a cool car. Btw- I never knew you were a dog. You type well!


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## Ducman (Feb 29, 2004)

AKamp said:


> Big rings used to always look like that. Has anyone noticed how there are no new chainring marks in downed trees anymore?


I don't see downed trees anymore. Trails here gets sanitized of anything the interrupts flow.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Carl Mega said:


> Scirocco was always a cool car. Btw- I never knew you were a dog. You type well!


That thing goes everywhere with me.


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## friz (Dec 2, 2012)

It's all about priorities. Wishing I had gone full squish years ago. My knees would be in better shape. A bike, no matter how expensive, is nothing compared to ones health.









Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

friz said:


> It's all about priorities. Wishing I had gone full squish years ago. My knees would be in better shape. A bike, no matter how expensive, is nothing compared to ones health.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hear you Friz!! I am so glad I got a long travel suspension MTB. It opens a whole new world to cycling that my disabilities would not allow me to ride otherwise.


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## TrailBlaza (Sep 2, 2008)

MTB is an overpriced hyped sport influenced by bro science and sleazy marketing. I love it as a hobby but today's prices is just laughable. $4,000 for a Santa Cruz frame. What in the hell?. I paid $1,400 for a Banshee with DPX2 frame a couple years ago and now they are going for $2,000. Give me a break.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Helmut Molde said:


> Good lard, look at those worn teeth. Looks like my dog's mouth.





J.B. Weld said:


> The big ring does look gnarly but based on the rest of the photo I'm guessing it's just the lens perspective making it look that way.


It is not a camera trick. They really are that bad.


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

Sorry if I am repeating someone but long thread i didn't read. I am poor and have been actively downgrading for 20 years now. In 2005-6(?) I caught crap here and from my friends (rich friend$ or union friends) for buying a frame welded in China, my poor friends understood. 

Latest bike has NX on it, bike before that was GX, bike before that was XO1, bike before that was XTR. It all started when Supergo went away, you could get Shimano components for 10% over QBP (wholesale) pricing. After that I had EU stores to go to where shimano and srams's pricing fixing is illegal. Sram and Shimano were able to put the kibosh on overseas shipping, damm you LBSs. No more XTR/XO1 builds for me now. Also, after exclusively riding Maxxis tires or at least 85% of the time, I am done with them. Down grading to Deliums next, unless they suck.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Sir kayakalot said:


> Dentists


Why does everybody bust on dentists?


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

Ratt said:


> Also, after exclusively riding Maxxis tires or at least 85% of the time, I am done with them. Down grading to Deliums next, unless they suck.


You might even consider American Classic tires. They look to be every bit as good as a Maxxis for half the cost. Just not quite as many selections. What they do have looks to be proven tread designs. Another benefit is if you register the tire you get a 50% off replacement deal if you damage them in a 2 year period.


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## angerbot (5 mo ago)

Ailuropoda said:


> Why does everybody bust on dentists?


the joke is just that dentists have a lot of money and not always a lot of time to ride/skill so it’s become a blanket term for people on expensive bikes who suck. I don’t know how long it’s been a thing with MTBs but I started seeing it years ago in road biking, usually as a shorthand for the slow fat guy on the Cervelo.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

So in 1997, I got my first real mountain bike as a gift for my 14th birthday. It was a Trek Y3 that MSRP’d for $900. It had a Rock shock fork, fox coil, and SHIMANO Diore components. Aluminum frame. Very much a mid tier bike, and usually one of the nicer bikes on the trail at the time. It was considered cutting edge technology for the time.
In December of 1998 I got a Trek Y22 carbon bike as a Christmas gift. This bike was carbon and had a mix of Shimano XT and XTR components. It retailed for $2400. This bike was a significant upgrade, and was considered very near top of the line.

After college I bought a 2007 Specilized Pro Carbon Stumpjumper FSR with a mix of XTR and XT on it for $4200.

Finally in 2019 I got a slightly used, ridden twice, Ripmo with performance suspension and a GX build for $4100. Great deal. As it retailed for ~$5k.

Now to put that in perspective of todays dollars 1997 $900 is like $1660.67 today, 1998 $2400 is like $4360 today, 2007 $4200 is like $6000 today, and finally 2019 $5000 is like $5800 today.

So, yes bikes are more expensive today when comparing to the price of bikes over the course of the last 25 years. Inflation has made it even worse.

I used to think you could get a great bike at a good value a few years ago. I no longer think that. Bike companies have pretty steadily increased their prices year over year with a few jumps in between and have slowly priced folks out. Yes, bikes are better now and more capable, but has technology out paced cost? I don’t know.

Using my numbers above, a top of the line bike in 1998 would cost me $4300 today, but in reality a nearly top of the line bike today costs ~$8000+. Nearly twice as much.

That’s pretty telling evidence that folks are being priced out. And MTBs are not alone in this. Cars and housing is an even bigger difference.


I mean FFS look at the cost of top of the line carbon bikes. $10k+!!! Ebikes are even worse at $14k+. It honestly infuriates me. And I make good money being in the top 10% of American house holds.


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## axebiker (Sep 11, 2004)

Ailuropoda said:


> Why does everybody bust on dentists?


They’re almost as bad as accountants??


----------



## jerrytrx1234 (7 mo ago)

Tiiiimmmmber said:


> I heard they only buy Yetis


And Pivot, Mondraker, Specialized, Ibis...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> In December of 1998 I got a Trek Y22 carbon bike as a Christmas gift. This bike was carbon and had a mix of Shimano XT and XTR components. It retailed for $2400. This bike was a significant upgrade, and was considered very near top of the line.


I was riding a lot in those days and sorry, but no, it wasn't. Regular people who didn't know much or anything about bikes thought it was really cool just because of how it looked. 
It was a URT with a fancy front end. My basic mid-level 97 Stumpy was only a few hundred less new and after a couple upgrades easily in the same price range.



ttengineer said:


> Using my numbers above, a top of the line bike in 1998 would cost me $4300 today, but in reality a nearly top of the line bike today costs ~$8000+. Nearly twice as much.


I had a '98 Litespeed Owl Hollow. Frame alone was $2200 IIRC. 

I built a 98 or 99 Tellico for my buddy, $2600 frame, White Bros fork, King wheelset/headset, Thomson bits, XTR drivetrain. Bike came in a little north of $6k. For a flexy-ass hardtail.

My 2000 Intense was in the same price range as well. 2000+ for the frame, $1100 fork, $1000 wheels, etc, etc. Also came in close to $6k (if I dealt with MSRP  ).

"Top of the line" bikes have always been very expensive. 
There are just more people who've been sold on the idea that they're actually required to roll around the trails these days, and anything less is basically unrideable.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> I was riding a lot in those days and sorry, but no, it wasn't. Regular people who didn't know much or anything about bikes thought it was really cool just because of how it looked.
> It was a URT with a fancy front end. My basic mid-level 97 Stumpy was only a few hundred less new and after a couple upgrades easily in the same price range.
> 
> 
> ...


No, it was nearly top of the line. Trek only offered one bike that was more expensive at the time and that was a Trek Y33. 

Sure you could argue that there were better bikes, but for the time period, that bike was very near top of the line. And in those days, Trek, Giant, Specialized and Connondale were winning all the XC races. I think the Cannondale Raven was priced just about the same as the Y bikes depending on build kit. 


I’m talking commercially available bikes as well. Not custom build stuff. I don’t remember any bike from a shop that came stock with Chris king stuff. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jerrytrx1234 (7 mo ago)

axebiker said:


> They’re almost as bad as accountants??


I have '22 Pivot switchblade and Yeti sb130 clr, both paid off. I'm local truck driver own a house ( loan). Have a budget. Get a low interest loan with good credit pay and it off. It's like anything else. Don't ***** and play a victim. Yesterday is gone. Market is changing constantly, so are prices.
You want it figure out what you need to do to get it. Life is short make it happen or live without.


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## Jimmy Curry (Jul 12, 2021)

Suns_PSD said:


> I personally know about 7 illegal immigrants (I work in trucking and they are common) that eventually became legal, built businesses, and are millionaires now. In their late 40s to very early 50s.
> Hell my old housing contractor wouldn't return my texts so I called him a couple of weeks ago and he was flipping 2 homes and had 2 crews doing clean up. He knocked on my door looking for work 7 years ago and his English was terrible. He had his underage daughter with him.
> The reality is that the average American born kid is an incredibly entitled lazy uninspired human being who is specifically unsuccessful because in reality they had absolutely every comfort and opportunity in the world and have no idea what it's actually like to be hungry, uneducated, with no real opportunity. Then when someone doesn't just hand them a crap load of money they think it's unfair.
> This country literally provides every opportunity in the world to not just be comfortable, but rich. The only ones with legitimate excuses are those with severe handicaps and of course those that prioritize other experiences and aren't complaining anyways.


I don't quite get why you would describe his daughter as underage?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> No, it was nearly top of the line. Trek only offered one bike that was more expensive at the time and that was a Trek Y33.
> 
> Sure you could argue that there were better bikes, but for the time period, that bike was very near top of the line. And in those days, Trek, Giant, Specialized and Connondale were winning all the XC races. I think the Cannondale Raven was priced just about the same as the Y bikes depending on build kit.
> 
> I’m talking commercially available bikes as well. Not custom build stuff. I don’t remember any bike from a shop that came stock with Chris king stuff.


In order to have an actual 'top of the line' near the same quality level of one what you get these days, you pretty much had to build/spec it yourself.
Bikes from the big companies were mainly a bunch of simple cookie-cutter rides loaded up with basic house-branded bits and an XTR rear derailleur for eye candy.

A nice steel hardtail with a good build would easily run up around $4k from the smaller 'boutique' companies (even without CK wheels, etc).
A '98 Fat Chance complete cost more than or about the same as a Y33 for example.
Once it got into the early 2000's and FS started getting more popular, things also went up considerably.

You can get a far better bike now for far less money than you could then. But everyone 'has to have' some super bike or they think they can't ride off road. 
The marketing departments have done their jobs really well.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

(edit. nevermind, just repeating what was said several times without actually reading responses...)


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> In order to have an actual 'top of the line' near the same quality level of one what you get these days, you pretty much had to build/spec it yourself.
> Bikes from the big companies were mainly a bunch of simple cookie-cutter rides loaded up with basic house-branded bits and an XTR rear derailleur for eye candy.
> 
> A nice steel hardtail with a good build would easily run up around $4k from the smaller 'boutique' companies (even without CK wheels, etc).
> ...


You’re comparing apples to oranges though. 

Let’s take your 97 bike that you built up for a buddy that cost $4000+ in 97. In todays dollars that would be equal to $7381. Now with that $7k, could you go buy an equally spec’d bike for today’s standards? 

No, you couldn’t. You have to drop an additional $2k most likely. 

Now could you take that $7k and get a bike that performs better than the one did in 97? Absolutely. Because technology trickles down. 

But for equal dollars you do not get today, what you got 25yrs ago in terms of levels of performance. You do however get a better bike. 

All things being equal, you should get the same for an equivalent amount of dollars.

But that’s not possible. And that’s my point, and the point of the thread. 

Mountain Biking is pricing the middle class out, all be it slowly, but it’s still happening. 

The same with other outdoor activities holds true. Skiing for example. The equipment itself isn’t terribly expensive, but lodging, lift tickets, food prices on mountain, and plane tickets have priced most people out. Hell even with me being on the high end of middle class earners, if I didn’t have a time share in Park City, I would not be able to afford to take may family skiing every winter or even every other winter most likely. 


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

For the money today's bikes are more capable for an equivalent cost bike. Simple, bikes are cheap and more accessible today. 

If you want to go crazy then you can. Slx is perfectly fine and as good or better than 10 year old xt.

3k








YT Industries


Jeffsy 29 CORE 2




www.yt-industries.com





Find me a bike that will hang with this in 2010 for 2200.


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

Ailuropoda said:


> Why does everybody bust on dentists?


You must not be a Pinker.

Another favorite of a Pinker to describe a newly minted bike; "looks like a Session", "nimbility" hasn't quite caught on but "downcountry" is a generic term now.


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## OAS500 (4 mo ago)

Wow. I must be the king of cheap @ss . $20. Mint condition. (even original tires)


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

I am not buying the excuse that bikes are more capable now so it justifies the price increases. This stuff is not rocket science. It is not designing microprocessors. Bikes are really simple devices. Everything is expected to get better over time. It does not require a price greater than a motorcycle to make a bike more capable.


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## louiesquared (6 mo ago)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> I am not buying the excuse that bikes are more capable now so it justifies the price increases. This stuff is not rocket science. It is not designing microprocessors. Bikes are really simple devices. Everything is expected to get better over time. It does not require a price greater than a motorcycle to make a bike more capable.


That's not really a fair comparison. Motorcycles are not restrained by the same laws of physics that mountain bikes are. You don't have to peddle a motorcycle, so it doesn't have to be light weight. Building a lightweight bike that is durable enough to handle the demands of modern trails is not cheap. Once you get to a certain point, the price of saving a few grams goes up exponentially.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

Yes, bikes are better now. And bikes now will blow the socks off bikes of equal performance tier than ones 10 years ago. 

But for todays dollars you get less bike value than you got 10 or 20 years ago. 

Now this fact makes buying a slightly used bike a better value than buying new. Especially in the last 5ish years. 

Similar to used car deals. You get 95% of the technology for 75% of the price. 

This still doesn’t change the fact that prices continue to rise for equality in past value. 


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> You’re comparing apples to oranges though.
> 
> Let’s take your 97 bike that you built up for a buddy that cost $4000+ in 97. In todays dollars that would be equal to $7381. Now with that $7k, could you go buy an equally spec’d bike for today’s standards?
> 
> No, you couldn’t. You have to drop an additional $2k most likely.


You took $2k off the original price to begin with. LOL

So yes, you could easily buy/build a similarly spec'ed XC hardtail for 9-10K today.

As far as high end and well performing FS bikes, they really weren't in play at that time.
If you really want to compare apples to apples, you'd need to start looking early 2000s DH bikes, which are a lot closer to the bikes people are spending top dollar on today than simple hardtails and poorly designed FS bikes from the late '90s. I believe MSRP on my old M1 was right up around $6k.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> I am not buying the excuse that bikes are more capable now so it justifies the price increases.


agreed. even sodas and cheeseburgers should still be 5cents like they used to once upon a time. not like there have been any improvements along the way...


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Jimmy Curry said:


> I don't quite get why you would describe his daughter as underage, instead of just (young or teenage). Makes it sound like he's a child molester or something. Underage for what?


His 11–12-year-old daughter wasn't in school, or with a babysitter, and she wasn't going to do much work, he was such a hustler that he had to have her with him while seeking work.

If she was an adult daughter, one would assume she was also working, which is why it was useful to specify that she was a child. I don't think anyone else made a leap to molestation dude.

Get it now?


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

.WestCoastHucker. said:


> agreed. even sodas and cheeseburgers should still be 5cents like they used to once upon a time. not like there have been any improvements along the way...


Coke was still $0.05 in 1959. In todays money that’s equal to $0.51. 

The catch, that’s only for 6fl oz. 

I haven’t seen $0.50 cans in a machine in a while, mostly because machines are few and far between but I think that coke has actually decreased in prices in some cases. 

The 20oz bottle on the other hand has increased in price. 


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> Yes, bikes are better now. And bikes now will blow the socks off bikes of equal performance tier than ones 10 years ago.
> 
> But for todays dollars you get less bike value than you got 10 or 20 years ago.
> 
> This still doesn’t change the fact that prices continue to rise for equality in past value.


Define your version of 'equality' and 'value'.

To me, getting a machine that performs far, far better for less money, many times substantially less money, equals a better value. 
If one gizmo works a lot better and costs less than another gizmo, It's a better value.
I don't really give a damn about 'logo equality' across time, because it means nothing when it comes to actual riding.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

Suns_PSD said:


> Get it now?


it's definitely strange that the first thing to come to his mind when hearing the word underage was someone up to some child molestation. projection is a sign of mental issues...


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

Ailuropoda said:


> Why does everybody bust on dentists?


In mountain biking I'm the 'dentist', 51-year-old guy with great bikes, use to be pretty slow but am well above average these days. Not actually a dentist but fit the stereotype when I first began riding in my 40s.

The thing is that MTBers can be pretty lame about making comments about 'too much gear' or 'too much bike' and I heard it plenty in the first year. As a result, I got in the habit of responding with 'looks like you should have spent more time building a successful business like me instead of playing around on bikes...'. That always shut them up nicely.

Don't receive comments like that any longer because of where and how I ride and my bikes are even nicer these days.

I used to track a Corvette, and, in that group, I was the snotty kid with a crappy car but kicking everyone's butts, as the old rich guys tooled around in their Lambos and what not. The irony of the situation wasn't lost on me.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> Coke was still $0.05 in 1959. In todays money that’s equal to $0.51.
> 
> The catch, that’s only for 6fl oz.
> 
> ...


The funny thing is that a 2 liter bottle costs just about same as a 20 oz bottle.

People are suckers.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> I am not buying the excuse that bikes are more capable now so it justifies the price increases. This stuff is not rocket science. It is not designing microprocessors. Bikes are really simple devices. Everything is expected to get better over time. It does not require a price greater than a motorcycle to make a bike more capable.


That's a good point. Anyone remember how expensive TV's, computers, appliances, etc. used to be? They're now vastly improved, and far less expensive.


.


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## .WestCoastHucker. (Jan 14, 2004)

_CJ said:


> That's a good point. Anyone remember how expensive TV's, computers, appliances, etc. used to be? They're now vastly improved, and far less expensive.


but when was the last time you stacked your new flatscreen tv on top of your old dead one?


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

In general prices on MTBs are higher, even factoring inflation in. Here's how general inflation works out on my early 2000's MTB. I paid 2k or so for a Giant NRS1 XC racer aluminum FS with XT components. General inflation would take that up to 3200 or so. Anyone selling an aluminum FS with XT for under 3500 today? 

Maybe that wouldn't sell, as people expect carbon frames on their racers now. In fairness, Giant does offer an aluminum Anthem today for 2500, albeit with entry-level parts. The cheapest carbon Anthem is over 4k, still no XT in sight at that price. 

Do I get more today vs early 2000s? 
Shifting - AXS is nice, but rear shifting on my old X-9 was dang flawless. I am glad to ditch the stupid three chainrings and derailleur up front. 
Shocks - Shocks are better, at least better ones are available at higher end. 
Wheels - 29 inch wheels are better

So yes, I get a better bike today, but the price has outpaced general inflation, and the bleeding edge obviously can get you stuff only dreamed about back in the day. COVID really jacked the prices up - supply chain issues, demand increase, relief checks, etc.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

The conversation has strayed completely from people being priced out of riding bikes to being priced out of being able to say they have the absolute top of the line everything on their bike.
Which has ~zero relevance to actual riding.

You can get a far better bike for less money now than you used to be able to. Which, when it comes to riding and performance versus shopping and trying to play one-up with logos, means that mountain biking is more affordable today than it used to. I have some $120 Deore disc brakes that work way better than my $500 Avid Black Ops rim brakes. I don't see why so many people act like riding isn't possible without them being able to brag about having the 'newest and bestest and top of the line-est ' equipment.
Who really gives a damn? I know I don't.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

People are not being priced out of mountain biking. People are getting priced out of having the very best mtbs available.

Adjusted for inflation, you get a much more capable MTB at almost any price point than you did 25 years ago.


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

I think it's a value thing. Comparing to way back, bikes offer way more bang for bucks now. But compared to pre-pandemic?

It use to be $5k for a bike with XT or GX drivetrain. Now $5k bikes come with NX. It just bummer to see all builds go up in price.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> The conversation has strayed completely from people being priced out of riding bikes to being priced out of being able to say they have the absolute top of the line everything on their bike.


Agreed. You can get a perfectly reasonable bike - new or used for a competitive price within reach of virtually anyone living in the states who wants to mountain bike. The catch? It may not be currently fashionable.

The conversation morphed into comparing top models of yesteryear to today. Well, a bike today has more 'tops' and every aspect has a minutia detail that you may being paying for as a differentiator. Do or do not, up to you.

FWIW, I've heard this same claim and outrage since the first handbuilt boutique builds were features in magazine since at least the 80s. "Great bike but who can afford it?"


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

_CJ said:


> That's a good point. Anyone remember how expensive TV's, computers, appliances, etc. used to be? They're now vastly improved, and far less expensive..


Just like bikes, you can buy cheap TV’s and computers and expensive versions.









Sony BRAVIA MASTER Series XR-75Z9K


75" Z9K Smart Mini LED 8K UHD TV with HDR




www.crutchfield.com













LG 75NANO75UQA


75" NanoCell™ 75 Series Smart 4K UHD TV with HDR




www.crutchfield.com





To some, there is zero difference in those TV’s, to others they are light years apart.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

They are being priced out, at all levels. 

And again, yes bikes are better and more capable. But we’re talking what you get for your money now, that you got from what was available back when. 

No matter the brand, in 2007 and XT build kit full suspension frame, pretty much the standard for “best bang for your buck” was around $4000 ($5700ish in todays money with inflation). 

So with $5700 in your pocket right now can you go get a full suspension bike with Shimano XT from a bike shop?

Let’s look at entry level FS in 2007 too. A big S Stumpjumper FSR Comp ( the cheapest build they offered) retailed for $2200 ($3142 todays money) that had non branded Shimano components. Can you go get an entry level FS now for $3100 with Shimano shifting from a bike shop?

The fact is dollar for dollar you don’t get what you used to. 

You do get a better bike comparatively now though. 

For those arguing that the “but bikes are better now” what’s the cheapest bike you would recommend to someone now to get into mountain biking? Now take that price, convert it to inflation adjusted price 20 years ago and compare to what it would buy you then? Chances are it will be a “better” bike back in the day. 


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

~$2,500 for a base level full suspension with low end components. Add another $500-$1,000 for tax, helmet, pump, basic repair kit, maybe a rack for transport, etc, etc.....


Disc golf is looking better all the time.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

People may be getting priced out of mountain bikes, but people are not necessarily being priced out of mountain biking. Those that think they are getting priced out of mountain biking have a perception of what equipment they need or what mountain biking is supposed to be, but mountain biking can be done within a reasonably small budget, even for those who are serious about it. It is not all about the equipment.


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

My very first mountain bike was in the late 90s: 1k for an aluminum HT with elastomer fork and LX shifting. I would take today's $1500 HT with 29 wheels over that in a heartbeat. The stock wheels and tires were hopeless - side lugs peeling off each ride, radial laced front wheel didn't last one season (but looks cool in the catalog!). Narrow bars and overly stretched out riding position. Sure it was fast and fun as a racer, but beat me up pretty bad on the rocks and roots around here. 

So maybe the entry level is still competitive after inflation, and you get an overall better package at the entry level (not entry level as in "what a Walmart shopper will pay for their first bike store bike" but entry level as in "what a beginner racer can buy and have fun in sub 1-hour races"), but the buy-in at the mid and upper level has really gone up.


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

J.B. Weld said:


> ~$2,500 for a base level full suspension with low end components. Add another $500-$1,000 for tax, helmet, pump, basic repair kit, maybe a rack for transport, etc, etc.....
> 
> 
> Disc golf is looking better all the time.


Careful with disc golf...








9 Most Expensive Disc Golf Discs Ever Sold - Rarest.org


Disc golf was pioneered by Ed “Steady” Headrick, who patented both the frisbee and the Disc Golf Pole Hole. The combination of them eventually became ... Read more




rarest.org


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

How much do skis, boots, jacket, lift tickets and gas cost for one season? How about golf clubs, greens fees, etc? These are comparable recreations, but how does the cost compare factoring in the service life of a bike?

Serious question. I really don't know.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

ttengineer said:


> Can you go get an entry level FS now for $3100 with Shimano shifting from a bike shop?


Edited this to show the Stance, Deore shifting full suspension for $1800:









Stance (2022) | Trail bike | Giant Bicycles US







www.giant-bicycles.com


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

_CJ said:


> How much do skis, boots, jacket, lift tickets and gas cost for one season? How about golf clubs, greens fees, etc? These are comparable recreations, but how does the cost compare factoring in the service life of a bike?
> 
> Serious question. I really don't know.


Skis and boots obviously vary on price greatly. But entry level you are able to get skis, bindings, and boots from various dealers in packages around $600. 

 https://www.evo.com/outlet/ski-pac...e-100-ski-boots-evo-merge-ski-poles-2022-.jpg

Ski outfit $150-$300

Season pass to vail properties is $800. That covers most big resorts out west. 

Depending on how many days you ski your equipment should last a few seasons. Unless your an every day skier. Then probably only a season. 


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

_CJ said:


> How much do skis, boots, jacket, lift tickets and gas cost for one season? How about golf clubs, greens fees, etc? These are comparable recreations, but how does the cost compare factoring in the service life of a bike?
> 
> Serious question. I really don't know.


For golf, greens fees are a bit up from years ago, but not crazy.

Clubs are A LOT more expensive. Drivers can easily tip into the $500-$600 range, irons are easily north of $1,000…

Want a new golf bag, $300 easily. Good golf balls are $40-$60/ dozen.

I had my whole set re-gripped this year, over $200 just for fresh grips.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

I think Golf is supposed to be the most expensive sport/hobby 


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> I don't see why so many people act like riding isn't possible without them being able to brag about having the 'newest and bestest and top of the line-est ' equipment.
> Who really gives a damn? I know I don't.


Wow Slaphead!! That is the most sense you have made on any of your 12,498 posts made on mtbr!! And I do indeed agree 100%. I see Walmart bikes and old beat up clapped out mtb's on the trails with riders that would put almost anyone (short of a sponsored pro rider) to shame with regards to speed and what the bike can do.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

FrankS29 said:


> For golf, greens fees are a bit up from years ago, but not crazy.
> 
> Clubs are A LOT more expensive. Drivers can easily tip into the $500-$600 range, irons are easily north of $1,000…
> 
> ...





ttengineer said:


> Skis and boots obviously vary on price greatly. But entry level you are able to get skis, bindings, and boots from various dealers in packages around $600.
> 
> Atomic Vantage 75 C Skis + M 10 GW Bindings + Hawx Prime 100 Ski Boots + evo Merge Ski Poles 2022
> 
> ...


and what's the cost per day? Or per hour?

.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

ttengineer said:


> I think Golf is supposed to be the most expensive sport/hobby


Only if you are paying for an annual country club membership.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

_CJ said:


> and what's the cost per day? Or per hour?
> 
> .


Skiing is just the cost of the lift ticket. Like I said, a vail property season pass is $800. That’s unlimited skiing all season at any of their resorts. 

A day pass however will vary depending on day, mountain, and availability, but you’re looking at at least $120/day. Ski 6-7 days and a season pass is cheaper. 

But for a family of 4 who don’t live close to the mountains are probably going to spend north of $6k to travel to ski for a week. That’s flight, hotel, food, equipment rental, and lift tickets. 


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

phantoj said:


> Edited this to show the Stance, Deore shifting full suspension for $1800:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a lot of bike to go have some fun on.


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

ballisticexchris said:


> Only if you are paying for an annual country club membership.


Depends on how much you play, that membership can save $$ if you play all the time.

One of my buddies plays all the time, if he skips the membership he would pay around $6k a year in greens fees. Membership was $3k and comes with pro shop discounts, pool access, priority access to the restaurant…


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

_CJ said:


> and what's the cost per day? Or per hour?
> 
> .


Courses I played this year, greens fees were between $80-$120 for 18 holes.


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## shwndh (Nov 20, 2004)

D Bone said:


> I'm just a 54yr old OLD guy with some personal experiences that might open one younger person's eyes....
> 
> I bought my 1st "starter" home when I was 23 and my mortgage interest rate was 12%. I was house poor for quite a few years but still raised a family and actually lived in that "starter" home for 29yrs and eventually paid it off early.
> 
> ...


Can we put together a "gofundme" to get this wonderful man a new phone? I understand the need to be self controlled with spending but a Galaxy S4 in 2022! That's needless suffering!


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Dunnigan said:


> Careful with disc golf...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All of those were under $40 when new.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

sgltrak said:


> People may be getting priced out of mountain bikes, but people are not necessarily being priced out of mountain biking. Those that think they are getting priced out of mountain biking have a perception of what equipment they need or what mountain biking is supposed to be, but mountain biking can be done within a reasonably small budget, even for those who are serious about it. It is not all about the equipment.


This is a really important distinction that seems to get glossed over. For every person that got priced out of buying certain gear, and maybe decided riding wasn't for them because it's too expensive, you probably have 3 others who took up MTB on a beater of some sort. If they're anything like me, they might think of the top-of-the-line, pricier gear as something to work towards.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

_CJ said:


> and what's the cost per day? Or per hour?


I prefer to tally my golf cost as a cost per stroke. That makes my rare golf game seem quite reasonable.

Like mountain biking, golf and skiing don't require fancy equipment. You can find golf clubs that were top of the line a few years back at garage sales all summer for $40 per set, and skis / boots that were well over $1000 a few seasons back for under $100 at ski swaps and pawn shops. 
Fortunately mountain biking is mostly not pay-to-play, unlike skiing and golf. Most places you can ride your bike do not require you to pay every time you want to ride.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

ttengineer said:


> No matter the brand, in 2007 and XT build kit full suspension frame, pretty much the standard for “best bang for your buck” was around $4000 ($5700ish in todays money with inflation).
> 
> So with $5700 in your pocket right now can you go get a full suspension bike with Shimano XT from a bike shop?


Well I would disagree that XT was ever the "best bang for your buck", but lets look at that for a moment....

This is a ridiculous comparison, because the only thing comparable between "XT Level" in 2007 and 2022 are the stickers saying "XT". You can get 2007 XT function from 2022 Deore.

Throw out some of examples of these $4000 bikes from 2007 and lets take a look at how a new $5700 bikes compare (beyond the stickers).



ttengineer said:


> Let’s look at entry level FS in 2007 too. A big S Stumpjumper FSR Comp ( the cheapest build they offered) retailed for $2200 ($3142 todays money) that had non branded Shimano components. Can you go get an entry level FS now for $3100 with Shimano shifting from a bike shop?


Well, first of all you need to add in a few hundred bucks the cost of a dropper which the 2007 FSR did not come with. So add a few hundred to that $2,200 (call it $2500) turn that into 2022 dollars ($3570) and you are just $30 short of a Trance x 29 1. Trance X 29 1 (2022) | Trail bike | Giant Bicycles US

Its not even close. the 2022 Trance x 29 1 is better in pretty much every imaginable way: Better dropper (than anything available in 2007), better brakes, better drivetrain, better suspension (fork, rear shock, and rear suspension design) better geo, better tires.

Find me anyone would would take the 2007 Stumpjumper Comp - even with a circa 2007 dropper - over a 2022 Trance X 29 1.


MTB is not like computers where you NEED more capability just to keep up with the demands on it. Overall, trail are no more difficult now than 10, 15, 20, 25 years ago. And for people getting into the sport, there are more beginner friendly trail options now than back then. And even more difficult trails are more likely to be more smoothed out with b-line options. 

Really, it has never been EASIER to get into the sport.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

Dunnigan said:


> That's a lot of bike to go have some fun on.


The Marin Rift Zone is maybe a better value -- better components for the price, and MSRP for the base model is pretty close to the Stance. It's available online at a discount, but I have several local bike shops that sell Marin.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

You really think I can afford a bike after 3 kids, wedding, ring, 4000sq feet, side-by-sides, 3 cars, bro-dozer, boat, my deck, the cabin and my avocado toast?


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

kapusta said:


> MTB is not like computers where you NEED more capability just to keep up with the demands on it.


That's the crux of it in a sense. You DO need more capability like increased suspension travel, stronger frames, and lighter parts in order to meet the greater demands put on the bikes nowadays versus in the past. Computers make for a good analogy in that sense, in fact. Unfortunately, we just haven't reached the point where prices drop drastically.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Sir kayakalot said:


> So they’re just lucky?


That is true to a certain point.

I have decent money. Enough money that if you were to give me a 100K I don't really have a place to spend it or even any debt to clear up. Both my wife and I come from very modest middle class families.

We have been fortunate. We made finanical decisions that worked out, we got a small amount of inheritence at a time where it made a real difference for us financially. Both of us chose careers that we ended up being quite good at and gave us a good financial return.

Yes, we both work hard. But so do other people, we just have gotten better returns from our work. Luck has played a significant roll in this.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

kapusta said:


> Well I would disagree that XT was ever the "best bang for your buck", but lets look at that for a moment....
> 
> This is a ridiculous comparison, because the only thing comparable between "XT Level" in 2007 and 2022 are the stickers saying "XT". You can get 2007 XT function from 2022 Deore.
> 
> ...


You completely missed the point. 

Yes, bikes are better now, as everyone has said. 

But what are you getting for an equivalent dollar spend compared to 10 or 20 years ago? Not performance based but price based. Even entry level mountain bikes that are commercially available at LBS, when adjusted for inflation, are MORE expensive than they were in the past. 

Are they more capable, 100%

Is an entry level bike today, better than a mid tier 20 years ago? 100%. 

Does an entry level bike cost the same it did 20 years ago even after adjusting for inflation? No. It doesn’t. It’s significantly more expensive. And that FACT prices people out that were not priced out 10 or 20 years ago. 

Let’s say I had $1000 to spend on a bike 15 years ago. 15 years ago I could get a decent FS bike made from aluminum with house brand parts and a deore drive train that would perform about the same as most bikes on the trail in that day. Or I could get a decent race ready hardtail. 

Adjusted for inflation today that $1000 is now $1428. Can I get a decent FS bike from a local bike shop for that price that will perform about the same as the average bike on the trail now? Or a race ready hartail? … not even close. 

Yea I can get a bike now for $1428. But it’s going to be a hard tail, and it’s probably going to have QR axles from the 90s, a non air fork, and mechanical disc brakes. 

Also, in 2007 droppers we’re not around and to my knowledge had not been invented yet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

kapusta said:


> Really, it has never been EASIER to get into the sport.


That I agree with. In fact I'm a strong believer in starting out on a beater, a hard tail, or both; your skill should match your bike. But yea places like the US Whitewater Center in my area have exposed tons of new folks to the sport. I do miss how easy it was to buy used though. Facebook Market doesn't do it for me.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

[


ttengineer said:


> You completely missed the point.
> 
> Yes, bikes are better now, as everyone has said.
> 
> ...


I largely agree with you about the entry point, and I don't know why that is. My guess is that one of the issues is the extent to which there is group think in cycling and when you roll out on an entry level bike, you get tons of unsolicited opinions about what you need to upgrade next, or "just buy the fancy bike so you don't have to upgrade it." Usually there are no questions asked before the advice is given. If you ride mostly green trails, it doesn't matter. The answer is a full suspension 140mm bike with a dropper. There is peer pressure to have the latest and greatest so there seems to be a lot of money chasing components and bikes and the manufacturers react accordingly.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

ttengineer said:


> You completely missed the point.
> 
> Yes, bikes are better now, as everyone has said.
> 
> ...


I have been out of touch with entry level bike market for a long time. But in 2000 I running a bike shop, at that time an entry level FS was about $1800CAD ($1200USD). But that bike was a mountain bike in name only, anybody who rode it regularly off rode was going to have a maintence nightmare. Those bikes were just garbage.

But now I look at something like the Norco Fluid, $2400CAD gets you a bike you can acutally ride regularly off rode.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

LMN said:


> I have been out of touch with entry level bike market for a long time. But in 2000 I running a bike shop, at that time an entry level FS was about $1800CAD ($1200USD). But that bike was a mountain bike in name only, anybody who rode it regularly off rode was going to have a maintence nightmare. Those bikes were just garbage.
> 
> But now I look at something like the Norco Fluid, $2400CAD gets you a bike you can acutally ride regularly off rode.


That $600 difference in prices since the year 2000 about sums things up nicely in the context of your average buyer.

ETA: Not everything gets adjusted to inflation equally. So while they may cost the same after adjusting the price, the $2400 Norco might _price out_ your 2023 average income earner more than the $1800 bike in 2000.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

LMN said:


> I have been out of touch with entry level bike market for a long time. But in 2000 I running a bike shop, at that time an entry level FS was about $1800CAD ($1200USD). But that bike was a mountain bike in name only, anybody who rode it regularly off rode was going to have a maintence nightmare. Those bikes were just garbage.
> 
> But now I look at something like the Norco Fluid, $2400CAD gets you a bike you can acutally ride regularly off rode.


In 2007 a Trek Fuel EX 5 retailed for $1100. 

 https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/value-guide/product/95835/

I think most mount bikers would have been perfectly safe on that bike and had a blast. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

ttengineer said:


> In 2007 a Trek Fuel EX 5 retailed for $1100.
> 
> BicycleBlueBook
> 
> ...


I think I was on a used Top Fuel at the time. Maybe not _perfectly_ safe.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

ttengineer said:


> In 2007 a Trek Fuel EX 5 retailed for $1100.
> 
> BicycleBlueBook
> 
> ...


Bikes did improve from 2000 to 2007. But still do you rememer what a nightmare those entry level Shimano hubs were? Or how the SRAM derailleurs of that era would detonate into little pieces? That bike would ridden regularly would require extensive time in a stand to keep running.

Another thing that has changed is now used bikes are actually a viable option. Go back 15 years ago, and a three year old bike was at the end of its lifespan. Now for $1500CAD or $1200USD you have bikes like this out there Trek Fuel.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

Super E said:


> In 2002 I bought a top end Mtb for $1400 (on sale - which you never see anymore), my wages (from hard work mind you) have increased 2.6x since then, a similar bike today is going for $8-10k which is 5.7x an increase (more than double compared to my income). There’s no way I can afford that kind of pricing today. I’m unsure who can afford those bikes.


Hmm. In 2002 I bought a middle of the road Enduro for $1500 with Deore components (I think LX DRs). 

You can get a much better enduro bike... more travel, better geometry, etc for $3300 from a few different sources. Hard to find reliable & trail worthy full suspension for much less than that. 

People's expectations have changed. The "Base" experience is higher. Most people expect carbon fiber which has never come down to be price competitive with aluminum. But you can still find aluminum bikes out there and they are much more affordable.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

tick_magnet said:


> [
> 
> I largely agree with you about the entry point, and I don't know why that is. My guess is that one of the issues is the extent to which there is group think in cycling and when you roll out on an entry level bike, *you get tons of unsolicited opinions* about what you need to upgrade next, or "just buy the fancy bike so you don't have to upgrade it." Usually there are no questions asked before the advice is given. If you ride mostly green trails, it doesn't matter. The answer is a full suspension 140mm bike with a dropper. There is peer pressure to have the latest and greatest so there seems to be a lot of money chasing components and bikes and the manufacturers react accordingly.


This happened to my gf at mammoth a few weeks ago. She was riding on her own and someone said that she should just get an Enduro bike. She was on a 2016 Stumpjumper...a bike that she bought brand new in 2016. She mainly rides blue trails.

Someone has already mentioned it that marketing and bro science have people convinced that you need the latest and greatest to have a good time on a bike.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Ogre said:


> The "Base" experience is higher. Most people expect...


Excellent point. If you show folks enough adrenaline fueled Youtube videos, how hard is it going to be to sell them the perfect machine to do that.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

LMN said:


> But still do you rememer what a nightmare those entry level Shimano hubs were?


Huge difference now adays. BITD, upgrading to higher end components made a lot of sense - performance, durability, weight. There was sense in the expense. These days? The gap performance wise is tiny. In regard to enthusiast riders, most the top end gear are luxury items. I love the stuff, but it is what it is. Utility/value in your purchase is had in all the unsexy component groups.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

I would draw the line for bikes somewhere in the orange. This graph doesn't have the last few years, though - inflation has been very high recently.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

sacrefrancais said:


> That's the crux of it in a sense. You DO need more capability like increased suspension travel, stronger frames, and lighter parts in order to_* meet the greater demands put on the bikes nowadays versus in the past.*_ Computers make for a good analogy in that sense, in fact. Unfortunately, we just haven't reached the point where prices drop drastically.


I strongly disagree. The demands are NOT greater now than the past. Trails have, on average, NOT gotten more challenging, and for people entering the sport, they have generally gotten easier.

Not at all analogous to computers.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

phantoj said:


> I would draw the line for bikes somewhere in the orange. This graph doesn't have the last few years, though - inflation has been very high recently.


Wait, wages have gone up 3-4x like houses have?

In any case, that's showing pretty steady in all categories since 2002 or so, not sure if that's "recent"?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

RS VR6 said:


> This happened to my gf at mammoth a few weeks ago. She was riding on her own and someone said that she should just get an Enduro bike. She was on a 2016 Stumpjumper...a bike that she bought brand new in 2016. She mainly rides blue trails.
> 
> Someone has already mentioned it that marketing and bro science have people convinced that you need the latest and greatest to have a good time on a bike.


We all are suckers for this.

This week I managed to get a lap of Dark Crystal in Whistler in (If you haven't ridden it I highly recommend it). I had a great lap, rode everything cleanly and smoothly and carried resonable speed. But at the bottom I was thinking maybe I should put a 36 with a bit more travel on my bike or switch to a mullet bike with a 27.5 rear wheel to give a bit more room to move around on the steeps. But then I came to senses and went, I ride this trail maybe twice a year and have a lot of fun doing so on my current bike.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

kapusta said:


> I strongly disagree. The demands are NOT greater now than the past. Trails have, on average, NOT gotten more challenging, and for people entering the sport, they have generally gotten easier.
> 
> Not at all analogous to computers.


Not for beginners, but we're not only talking about beginners. Modern bikes are built for more abuse. The idea of buying a "quiver killer" speaks to this in that capability is the name of the game.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

ttengineer said:


> Skiing is just the cost of the lift ticket. Like I said, a vail property season pass is $800. That’s unlimited skiing all season at any of their resorts.
> 
> A day pass however will vary depending on day, mountain, and availability, but you’re looking at at least $120/day. Ski 6-7 days and a season pass is cheaper.
> 
> ...


That's why I said per hour. I mean, when I used to ski, it was maybe six hours in a day, but most of that was spent sitting on a chairlift. Then there was driving there and back, all the gear, etc. So maybe 30 hours of fun per season, for how much money?

Of course you could go the dirtbag route like I did for a while, hitchhiking to the top of passes, shoe shoeing up into remote areas, and skiing down. Even that isn't free with gear, gas, etc.

How many hours of fun does a guy get from a bike in a year? 100? 200? 500? And probably mostly without driving anywhere, at least for a lot of us.

.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

ttengineer said:


> You completely missed the point.


Then try making your point with valid examples.



ttengineer said:


> Let’s say I had $1000 to spend on a bike 15 years ago. 15 years ago I could get a decent FS bike made from aluminum with house brand parts and a deore drive train that would perform about the same as most bikes on the trail in that day.


Show me an example.This should be interesting.



ttengineer said:


> Also, in 2007 droppers we’re not around and to my knowledge had not been invented yet.


 If that were true it would only further enforce my point. But it is not true. Gravity Dropper came out in 2004. I bought mine in 2005. By 2007 there were a couple others out, and they were junk. GD was reliable but lacked many features that modern posts have. And droppers have also gotten a lot cheaper (adjusted for inflation) and more. My GD cost me something like $225 in 2005. My newer PNW posts which have far more features cost under $200. That is a lot cheaper adjusted for inflation.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

kapusta said:


> Show me an example.This should be interesting.


Agreed, my hardtail from that time was over $1000. It wasn't "top end" at the time either"


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

sacrefrancais said:


> Not for beginners, but we're not only talking about beginners. Modern bikes are built for more abuse. The idea of buying a "quiver killer" speaks to this in that capability is the name of the game.


No, they mostly take the same abuse. They just hold up a lot better than they used to. And you can get a bike that stands up to more abuse than in the past for the same money (inflation adjusted). And the fact that it is easier to obtain a "quiver killer" now more cheaply than in the past only further serves my point.

Also, when you are talking about the price of entry, you are in fact talking about beginners and and maybe intermediates.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

kapusta said:


> No, they mostly take the same abuse. They just hold up a lot better than they used to. And you can get a bike that stands up to more abuse than in the past for the same money (inflation adjusted). And the fact that it is easier to obtain a "quiver killer" now more cheaply than in the past only further serves my point.
> 
> Also, when you are talking about the price of entry, you are in fact talking about beginners and and maybe intermediates.


There is something to be said for having more options today. Personally I'd prefer to see things go the computer route, where prices drop precipitously (think how much the first Apple computers were), rather than the car industry route where prices only go up. YMMV


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

kapusta said:


> No, they mostly take the same abuse. They just hold up a lot better than they used to. And you can get a bike that stands up to more abuse than in the past for the same money (inflation adjusted). And the fact that it is easier to obtain a "quiver killer" now more cheaply than in the past only further serves my point.
> 
> Also, when you are talking about the price of entry, you are in fact talking about beginners and and maybe intermediates.


Not really. OP used to bike years ago, so possibly intermediate. But his (re)entry price was about 4k. It's not just about your skill level, though my position is the higher your skill level, the more use you get out of all the expensive gear.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ballisticexchris said:


> Wow Slaphead!! That is the most sense you have made on any of your 12,498 posts made on mtbr!!


You obviously haven't read enough of my posts.

That's okay. You're new, you'll get there.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> And again, yes bikes are better and more capable. But we’re talking what you get for your money now, that you got from what was available back when.


No, we're talking about being able to afford a bike capable of going mountain biking on.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

slapheadmofo said:


> You can get a far better bike for less money now than you used to be able to. Which, when it comes to riding and performance versus shopping and trying to play one-up with logos, means that mountain biking is more affordable today than it used to. I have some $120 Deore disc brakes that work way better than my $500 Avid Black Ops rim brakes. I don't see why so many people act like riding isn't possible without them being able to brag about having the 'newest and bestest and top of the line-est ' equipment.
> Who really gives a damn? I know I don't.


I think we all do give a damn to certain extent. Just some more than others.

A highend mountain bike is to a certain extent a status symbol. Carbon wheels, Carbon frames, electronics shifting, ect... is statement about your wealth and tastes. The costs of having your mountain bike as a status symbol keeps going up and up getting out of reach of some of us.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

An LX equipped bike I bought in 1998 was the equivalent to $4000 today. It was a 140mm all mountain bike. Free ride back then. Same as it ever was.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> XT build kit full
> 
> Shimano XT from a bike shop?


Why do I care whether it's got an "XT" logo on it or not if it works fine?
Why do you?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

ttengineer said:


> So with $5700 in your pocket right now can you go get a full suspension bike with Shimano XT from a bike shop?


I can find XTR for that price. Norco Optic. ($5700USD is about $8000CAD)
An XT bike for $4500 USD. Norco Optic C2


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Ibis Ripley AF and Ripmo AF in the Deore package retail from $3800 ($2660 in 2007 dollars) and will blow the doors off and outperform any $6K FS bike from 2007.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

LMN said:


> I think we all do give a damn to certain extent. Just some more than others.
> 
> A highend mountain bike is to a certain extent a status symbol. Carbon wheels, Carbon frames, electronics shifting, ect... is statement about your wealth and tastes. The costs of having your mountain bike as a status symbol keeps going up and up getting out of reach of some of us.


**** carbon. **** electronic shifting. **** bikes as a status symbol altogether. 
If Joe Gear Weenie wants to judge me and think a he's doing better than me because he got suckered into a $400 cassette, let him. Can't say I'm worried about it. 
Anyone who's actually operating at a level where that stuff make some sort of real difference ain't paying MSRP to begin with.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

LMN said:


> The costs of having your mountain bike as a status symbol keeps going up and up getting out of reach of some of us.


This^^^


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

kapusta said:


> This^^^


Sorry but I'm not going to lose too much sleep over someone who can't afford a status symbol.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

kapusta said:


> Ibis Ripley AF and Ripmo AF in the Deore package retail from $3800 ($2660 in 2007 dollars) and will blow the doors off and outperform any $6K FS bike from 2007.


That’s honestly the best deal in mountain biking if you ask me. 

It’s hard to tell an entry rider that that bike is the absolute best bang for their buck right now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Why do I care whether it's got an "XT" logo on it or not if it works fine?
> Why do you?


Wisdom is chasing you, but you’re always faster aren’t you?

I was using XT as a baseline example. Since it’s shimanos second best drivetrain and has been around for 25 years or more. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

LMN said:


> I can find XTR for that price. Norco Optic. ($5700USD is about $8000CAD)
> An XT bike for $4500 USD. Norco Optic C2


Damn, in todays world, that’s a great deal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Other than one shifting feature, is XT really any better than SLX? I know that the only reason I use X01 shifters, is so I can adjust the thumb lever. Otherwise, I can't tell a difference. Why do I have X01 derailleurs? Because I got a stupid deal.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> Wisdom is chasing you, but you’re always faster aren’t you?
> 
> I was using XT as a baseline example. Since it’s shimanos second best drivetrain and has been around for 25 years or more.
> 
> ...


The particular letters don't matter. 
I'm not faster, it's that others are slower...


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> The particular letters don't matter.
> I'm not faster, it's that others are slower...


I want a Fast Forward button for people sometimes does that count?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

sacrefrancais said:


> Sorry but I'm not going to lose too much sleep over someone who can't afford a status symbol.


Nor am I


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sacrefrancais said:


> That's the crux of it in a sense. You DO need more capability like increased suspension travel, stronger frames, and lighter parts in order to meet the greater demands put on the bikes nowadays versus in the past. Computers make for a good analogy in that sense, in fact. Unfortunately, we just haven't reached the point where prices drop drastically.


Exactly what are YOU doing now that is so far beyond what was people did 15 -20 years ago?


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

ttengineer said:


> Damn, in todays world, that’s a great deal.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, I didn’t expect that good of pricing. And that is a really good riding frame.

Or as a buddy was saying today,you spend $7000cad on Santa Cruz and get an NX drivetrain


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> Agreed, my hardtail from that time was over $1000. It wasn't "top end" at the time either"


Where are we now? 15 years ago? 2007?
I was on a semi-custom Frank the Welder FS frame with this crazy adjustable geometry. 
Frame alone was a over a couple grand (MSRP). It had XTR bits at times. I cracked the **** out of it. LOL


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

ttengineer said:


> Damn, in todays world, that’s a great deal.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Another example. Orbea occam H10. Pretty well full XT. $4400 USD


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Exactly what are YOU doing now that is so far beyond what was people did 15 -20 years ago?


I wasn't speaking about me personally, more about the competitive sport of MTB. But I do feel more confident being harder on my newer bike than I did on my Superfly. From my perspective, if it inspires confidence while riding, it's a good fit. I never meant to imply that my riding is sooo much better now that I have a new bike. Really was speaking exclusively abotu my thoughts regarding the industry and its use of tech as it relates to pricing.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sacrefrancais said:


> I wasn't speaking about me personally, more about the competitive sport of MTB. But I do feel more confident being harder on my newer bike than I did on my Superfly. From my perspective, if it inspires confidence while riding, it's a good fit. I never meant to imply that my riding is sooo much better now that I have a new bike. Really was speaking exclusively abotu my thoughts regarding the industry and its use of tech as it relates to pricing.


Considering the vast majority of mountain bikers don't compete at all, let alone at a high level, a lot of this conversation simply has nothing to do with the "meat" of the sport.
If you are fast enough to really need XTR, then you're not paying full price for it. No normal rider is being 'priced out' of being able to go riding because they can't afford electronic shifting. The only thing they're being priced out of is bike dork bragging rights. Which aren't really worth crap.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

I love how we're in a thread complaining about people getting "Priced out of MTB" and people are casually talking about XTR versus XT as if that's some kind of baseline. 

When I bought my first MTB, I was happy to have LX and Deore. 

Baseline full suspension bike is $2,800 and that's for a bike that is very trail worthy and will destroy anything from the 00s.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

LMN said:


> Does an entry level bike cost the same it did 20 years ago even after adjusting for inflation? No. It doesn’t. It’s significantly more expensive. And that FACT prices people out that were not priced out 10 or 20 years ago.


Show me an example of what entry level bikes you are talking about from 10 or 20 years ago. Entry level means different things to different people.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

LMN said:


> Yeah, I didn’t expect that good of pricing. And that is a really good riding frame.
> 
> Or as a buddy was saying today,you spend $7000cad on Santa Cruz and get an NX drivetrain


Cuz you spent $2k on the SC stickers...


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Considering the vast majority of mountain bikers don't compete at all, let alone at a high level, a lot of this conversation simply has nothing to do with the "meat" of the sport.
> If you are fast enough to really need XTR, then you're not paying full price for it.


That's fair. There's no shortage of whooshing sounds in this thread.

But yea I agree. What's funny (ironic?) is that the Industry is often times targeting beginners with machines that are just so incredibly out of their league. Most beginners probably couldn't tell a $200 bike from a $2000 bike in a "blind" test.


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

sacrefrancais said:


> Most beginners probably couldn't tell a $200 bike from a $2000 bike in a "blind" test.


That's pretty extreme difference


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sacrefrancais said:


> Most beginners probably couldn't tell a $200 bike from a $2000 bike in a "blind" test.


You can extrapolate that pretty far up the ladder IME.

I'd say if not being able to run XTR is the thing that keeps someone from mountain biking, then mountain biking is better off without them. 

Sue me.


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## shwndh (Nov 20, 2004)

ttengineer said:


> They are being priced out, at all levels.
> 
> And again, yes bikes are better and more capable. But we’re talking what you get for your money now, that you got from what was available back when.
> 
> ...


My Top Fuel 9.7 with XT was $4500 and it's worlds better than anything from 2007. Shimano SLX is better than XT of 2007. I could have gotten a 9.8 with carbon wheels for $5700. The Lower end Builds with SLX and Deore are still better than a bike with XT from 2007 and can be had for less than $4700. The bo


kapusta said:


> Well I would disagree that XT was ever the "best bang for your buck", but lets look at that for a moment....
> 
> This is a ridiculous comparison, because the only thing comparable between "XT Level" in 2007 and 2022 are the stickers saying "XT". You can get 2007 XT function from 2022 Deore.
> 
> ...


Agreed. You can get a capable Schwinn Axiam from Walmart now that compares to the old mountain bike tech of a decade ago. An entry level Giant Fathom, Stance or Top Fuel 5 are all in the sub $3000 range and they are more capable than 07 bikes. Inflation adjusted they are not that much more. There are just more higher end models than the lower end ones but you can find good budget bikes out there.
Looking for FS, Shimano shifting, and under $3100?
Trek Fuel EX 5 $2700
Giant Stance $1800-$2250
Giant Trance 29 $2600
Giant Trance X 3 $3000
Marin Rift Zone 1 $1800
Marin Rift Zone 3 $2850
Rocky Mountain Instinct Alloy 10 $2900

These are just the bikes I've seen in local shops, have Deore and that's as good as XT of 07. Just because the attention is on the higher end models don't meant people are being priced out. They just need to learn how to shop.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Bikeventures said:


> That's pretty extreme difference


It's not meant as an insult so much as being a beginner, you're normally more preoccupied with not dying than how expensive your gear is.


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

sacrefrancais said:


> It's not meant as an insult so much as being a beginner, you're normally more preoccupied with not dying than how expensive your gear is.


I am certain a beginner would feel significantly safer on a $2k bike. What the hell is a $200 bike now? A child's balance bike is already $100.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

Spot on Shwndh. People think top dollar is the best. But they can get a capable bike for much less. Bike manufacturers take a frame and spec it out with several builds to meet each persons pocket book. The more money you spend, the lighter the bike tends to get. But so much of the components work no different from cheapest to most expensive. Other than that you should know what suspension your getting. But the lower priced bikes still quality.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

Bikeventures said:


> I am certain a beginner would feel significantly safer on a $2k bike. What the hell is a $200 bike now? A child's balance bike is already $100.


Yea I’m not taking a target, Walmart, big box co. bike off road and doing with it what I do with my bike.
I broke so many bikes growing up jumping shady arse 2x6 wood ramps. And flying thru our local park woods.
This isn’t me but damn if no one would question it if I showed them this pic. But this was us all day long.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Bikeventures said:


> I am certain a beginner would feel significantly safer on a $2k bike. What the hell is a $200 bike now? A child's balance bike is already $100.


Ok fine. Maybe the better test would be a well maintained $500 used bike versus a $5000 bike. Somehow the rider can’t look down. Or maybe you wrap the bikes like demo cars. Heck I bet just timing them their times would be almost the same.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

shwndh said:


> My Top Fuel 9.7 with XT was $4500 and it's worlds better than anything from 2007. Shimano SLX is better than XT of 2007. I could have gotten a 9.8 with carbon wheels for $5700. The Lower end Builds with SLX and Deore are still better than a bike with XT from 2007 and can be had for less than $4700. The bo
> 
> Agreed. You can get a capable Schwinn Axiam from Walmart now that compares to the old mountain bike tech of a decade ago. An entry level Giant Fathom, Stance or Top Fuel 5 are all in the sub $3000 range and they are more capable than 07 bikes. Inflation adjusted they are not that much more. There are just more higher end models than the lower end ones but you can find good budget bikes out there.
> Looking for FS, Shimano shifting, and under $3100?
> ...


I still have and ride my bike from 2007. Both are 160/140, have nearly identical geo and are both coil and oil. The suspension on the 07 is better. Not the suspension design but the shock and the fork. If I had to sell one, it would be the newer 29er. It just handles tight singletrack and tech like ****. As I get older, the less I care about marketing and industry gimmicks.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

kapusta said:


> Show me an example of what entry level bikes you are talking about from 10 or 20 years ago. Entry level means different things to different people.


Here is an entry level FS bike from 15 years ago. 

 https://www.bicyclebluebook.com/value-guide/product/95835/

$1100 in 2007. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> Here is an entry level FS bike from 15 years ago.
> 
> BicycleBlueBook
> 
> ...


And if someone wanted to ride one today, it would only cost them a couple hundred bucks.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

shwndh said:


> My Top Fuel 9.7 with XT was $4500 and it's worlds better than anything from 2007. Shimano SLX is better than XT of 2007. I could have gotten a 9.8 with carbon wheels for $5700. The Lower end Builds with SLX and Deore are still better than a bike with XT from 2007 and can be had for less than $4700. The bo
> 
> Agreed. You can get a capable Schwinn Axiam from Walmart now that compares to the old mountain bike tech of a decade ago. An entry level Giant Fathom, Stance or Top Fuel 5 are all in the sub $3000 range and they are more capable than 07 bikes. Inflation adjusted they are not that much more. There are just more higher end models than the lower end ones but you can find good budget bikes out there.
> Looking for FS, Shimano shifting, and under $3100?
> ...


FFS, do you not comprehend what I wrote?

No one is questioning that bikes now, even at lower tiers, are better than they were 15 years ago. 

The whole point is to compare PRICES and garner weather or not folks are being priced out. 

Can the same amount of inflation adjusted money get you the same level bike now that it could 15 years ago?! 

No. It can’t. I’ve given numerous examples and yet people still want to argue about how bikes are better. 

No $h!t they’re better, technology trickles down as should prices, but they have not followed suit. 

Jesus I feel like I’m herding cats. 

Forget how a bike rides or shifts or performs. 

In 2007 you could get a FS entry level bike (shown above) for ~$1500 in todays money from a major brand at a LBS. Can you get an entry level FS bike today for $1500 from a LBS? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

You can get a stance for $1800. Two years of f*cked up supply chain drove some prices up, before any inflation.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> Forget how a bike rides or shifts or performs.


Right. Cuz that's not important. Nor is what you do with the bike.

What's important is logos, stickers, marketing "levels" and being able to think you purchased some sort of bragging rights.
Because you can't mountain bike without that crap. 

But yeah, we're the ones who don't get it. LOL.


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## JEMColorado (Aug 24, 2021)

BansheeRune said:


> Wut, you KTM has the clap?


Motorcycles and mountain bikes serve different purposes, don't they?


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

You guys should really consider taking a break from this extremely important and informative conversation and go ride your $200-$20,000 bike


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

I think engineer's point is that if you look at the relative prices for the era, it was easier to get into mountain biking in say 2005 vs 2022. For example, the 2005 Trek Fuel was cheaper for 2005 consumers than the 2022 Fuel is for 2022 consumers.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Sir kayakalot said:


> You guys should really consider taking a break from this extremely important and informative conversation and go ride your $200-$20,000 bike


Every morning


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

tick_magnet said:


> I think engineer's point is that if you look at the relative prices for the era, it was easier to get into mountain biking in say 2005 vs 2022. For example, the 2005 Trek Fuel was cheaper for 2005 consumers than the 2022 Fuel is for 2022 consumers.


Nailed it


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

sacrefrancais said:


> Not for beginners, but we're not only talking about beginners. Modern bikes are built for more abuse. The idea of buying a "quiver killer" speaks to this in that capability is the name of the game.


They are built for more perceived abuse. Sure, rampage is getting bigger, but your average mountain bike rider is still riding the same ****. Everyone thinks they need a fox 38 when they are riding the same stuff that was getting ridden 25 years ago on 2 inch elastomer forks and hardtails. I remember cleaning portal trail on a 1988 Breezer with an old IRD elastomer fork. Now people think they need at least 160 on the front. Are there bigger drops now, sure, but when was the last time you hit a 10 foot drop? Everyone thinks they are “sending it” but reality is the same percentage of people are sending it as there ever was. 95% of people simply ride relatively smooth stuff that can be, and has been, ridden on rigid.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

JEMColorado said:


> Motorcycles and mountain bikes serve different purposes, don't they?


So...

Obviously you missed part of the context rendering it null


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

AKamp said:


> They are built for more perceived abuse. Sure, rampage is getting bigger, but your average mountain bike rider is still riding the same ****. Everyone thinks they need a fox 38 when they are riding the same stuff that was getting ridden 25 years ago on 2 inch elastomer forks and hardtails. I remember cleaning portal trail on a 1988 Breezer with an old IRD elastomer fork. Now people think they need at least 160 on the front. Are there bigger drops now, sure, but when was the last time you hit a 10 foot drop? Everyone thinks they are “sending it” but reality is the same percentage of people are sending it as there ever was. 95% of people simply ride relatively smooth stuff that can be, and has been, ridden on rigid.


Perceived and actual. I was reading an article about carbon bikes in 2014. Wow the changes since in strength.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

tick_magnet said:


> I think engineer's point is that if you look at the relative prices for the era, it was easier to get into mountain biking in say 2005 vs 2022. For example, the 2005 Trek Fuel was cheaper for 2005 consumers than the 2022 Fuel is for 2022 consumers.


You don’t need a Trek Fuel to get into mountain biking.

And the only thing a 2005 and 2022 fuel have in common is the spelling of the name.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tick_magnet said:


> I think engineer's point is that if you look at the relative prices for the era, it was easier to get into mountain biking in say 2005 vs 2022. For example, the 2005 Trek Fuel was cheaper for 2005 consumers than the 2022 Fuel is for 2022 consumers.


$1500. Willing to bet it rides considerably better than an old Fuel in every way.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Good grief people. The Trek Fuel was an example. Substitute whatever name you want.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Zactly

Now ya just need a fvcking jumobo loan for em.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tick_magnet said:


> Good grief people. The Trek Fuel was an example. Substitute whatever name you want.


I substituted a Marin for it. Better deal all around, and not the only one out there by any means.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

Sir kayakalot said:


> You guys should really consider taking a break from this extremely important and informative conversation and go ride your $200-$20,000 bike





dysfunction said:


> Every morning


Every other morning for myself.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> $1500. Willing to bet it rides considerably better than an old Fuel in every way.


On sale. MSRP is $1900. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

^Regardless, that is a perfect example of a functional mtb you can actually ride as intended/marketed...but it's not uber fashionable so those types of bikes get dismissed. They are all one would need to have a great time and not be 'priced out of mtb'.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

kapusta said:


> You don’t need a Trek Fuel to get into mountain biking.
> 
> And the only thing a 2005 and 2022 fuel have in common is the spelling of the name.


The large bike brands were very late to the geo party.


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## JEMColorado (Aug 24, 2021)

BansheeRune said:


> So...
> 
> Obviously you missed part of the context rendering it null


It's an old and, in my opinion, invalid argument.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

AKamp said:


> They are built for more perceived abuse. Sure, rampage is getting bigger, but your average mountain bike rider is still riding the same ****. Everyone thinks they need a fox 38 when they are riding the same stuff that was getting ridden 25 years ago on 2 inch elastomer forks and hardtails. I remember cleaning portal trail on a 1988 Breezer with an old IRD elastomer fork. Now people think they need at least 160 on the front. Are there bigger drops now, sure, but when was the last time you hit a 10 foot drop? Everyone thinks they are “sending it” but reality is the same percentage of people are sending it as there ever was. 95% of people simply ride relatively smooth stuff that can be, and has been, ridden on rigid.


Lol. This is spot on for most. But man being out of the game for 10+ years and hitting recent trails, the trail builders have upped the game and a added features such as jumps and drops that weren’t there before. And yes they can be ridden around if need be. My TB has slightly less travel than my old Turner. But the ride of the TB is a lot nicer. More of the trails also have skills areas in the woods now. So people can try bigger stuff if they like. I’ll admit I was thinking I would need more travel than my Turner because of old school thinking. But after talking to alot of riders it wasn’t as big of deal breaker as it was back then. I’m probably hitting bigger stuff on a more regular basis on the TB because it’s now available at more of the trails. And doing so on what is considered a short travel bike in terms of today. 10 foot drop with a nice tranny is doable but I won’t be doing a 10 foot drop to the flat. Lol.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

To be fair, beginners aren't going to be crushing it and I'm not sure they will be able to break a $600 Giant Talon or a $699 Kona Lenai. We have a beginner group ride in our local club and at the typical pace we go at to make sure nobody is dropped, those bikes are definitely up to the task. What was the MSRP of the 2005 equivalent of these bikes? I'm too lazy to look it up.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> *** carbon. electronic shifting. *** bikes as a status symbol altogether.
> If Joe Gear Weenie wants to judge me and think a he's doing better than me because he got suckered into a $400 cassette, let him. Can't say I'm worried about it.




Why so angry? "Joe gear weenie" isn't judging you so why judge him?


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

JEMColorado said:


> It's an old and, in my opinion, invalid argument.


Definitely invalid. Geometry is nothing but a fad, whatever the magazines and internet say at the time. There will be a time that we go shorter, steeper and taller. All it will take is Levi talking g about how zippy a bike feels with a 68 HTA and the masses will begin to follow. It is continuously evolving. What we should be looking at is what is the yearly cost it takes to ride a mountain bike. If GX is the minimum it takes without extensive shop time vs LX back in the day. Maybe it was Exage (well, I doubt that, it was plastic coated steel crap), maybe it was Deore DX. People demand higher quality bikes now, they have to have droppers, bushing are bad news in the pivots. All that stuff that people demand costs more to produce. You can still ride the exact same trails that people were riding 30 years ago on a $300 used bike. Problem is people want a super bike. A Model T would still get you across the country and was top of the line in the day, now people want a Ferrari.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Tallboy723 said:


> Lol. This is spot on for most. But man being out of the game for 10+ years and hitting recent trails, the trail builders have upped the game and a added features such as jumps and drops that weren’t there before. And yes they can be ridden around if need be. My TB has slightly less travel than my old Turner. But the ride of the TB is a lot nicer. More of the trails also have skills areas in the woods now. So people can try bigger stuff if they like. I’ll admit I was thinking I would need more travel than my Turner because of old school thinking. But after talking to alot of riders it wasn’t as big of deal breaker as it was back then. I’m probably hitting bigger stuff on a more regular basis on the TB because it’s now available at more of the trails. And doing so on what is considered a short travel bike in terms of today. 10 foot drop with a nice tranny is doable but I won’t be doing a 10 foot drop to the flat. Lol.


As bikes get more capable, existing trails feel boring and features are added to make it interesting again.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

$4.000 bikes are commonly specced with NX components and people refuse to acknowledge that they might be a little over priced.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

J.B. Weld said:


> $4.000 bikes are commonly specced with NX components and people refuse to acknowledge that they might be a little over priced.


I agree with that. Bikes are overpriced. But what do we do. NX still works fine. Just heavier.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

my 97 Cannondale Super V 1000 $2,168 in 1997 is worth $4,000.62. It had coda cranks on it and deore level shifting. 
With XTR, next carbon exoskeleton cranks and Mavic ceramic wheels it would have been over 4k or almost $9k now.

The raven version with full xtr was over $5K.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

LMN said:


> I think we all do give a damn to certain extent. Just some more than others.
> 
> A highend mountain bike is to a certain extent a status symbol. Carbon wheels, Carbon frames, electronics shifting, ect... is statement about your wealth and tastes. The costs of having your mountain bike as a status symbol keeps going up and up getting out of reach of some of us.


That's pretty much how status symbols work, if everyone could afford it…

This thread is making me remember why I like to ride out where no one else is. Mountain bikers are a bunch of jerks!


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## shwndh (Nov 20, 2004)

ttengineer said:


> FFS, do you not comprehend what I wrote?
> 
> No one is questioning that bikes now, even at lower tiers, are better than they were 15 years ago.
> 
> ...


Same level? A 26er with bushings in the frame instead of bearings, coil fork, QR 135/100mm hubs, straight steerer tube, and other old tech? That's a higher end Walmart bike that can be purchased for less than the original $1100. What do you mean by same level? While I agree bikes overall are more expensive, there are plenty of options to get a great starter bike. Just more goes into the entry level bike so they can't possibly be the same prices, even inflation adjusted. Give me a price range and I can find a new bike. May not be in stock or the sexiest bike, but you can find one in your budget.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Everyone needs a single speed.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

chazpat said:


> That's pretty much how status symbols work, if everyone could afford it…
> 
> This thread is making me remember why I like to ride out where no one else is. Mountain bikers are a bunch of jerks!


Apparently, if you are riding a low end bike, you get pressured to upgrade. If you ride a high end bike, you must be a dentist. It's definitely a tough crowd.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

chazpat said:


> That's pretty much how status symbols work, if everyone could afford it…
> 
> This thread is making me remember why I like to ride out where no one else is. Mountain bikers are a bunch of jerks!


Reminds me of a kid we used to ride with. Had some top of the line bike with thousands invested in his bike. He worked at the LBS. He still sucked at riding and had more problems with his bikes. Always something not working quite right. He thought he was so cool with his bike and the price of it. He was the sort of rider you were happy to see him have so many issues. Damn poser. Lol.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Tallboy723 said:


> I agree with that. Bikes are overpriced. But what do we do. NX still works fine. Just heavier.



I guess that depends on what your definition of "fine" is. It does work. For awhile.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

I don't believe that $1100 is the correct MSRP for a 2007 Trek Fuel EX5.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

phantoj said:


> I don't believe that $1100 is the correct MSRP for a 2007 Trek Fuel EX5.


An EX 6 was 1400ish. So if it’s not spot on, it’s very close. 

 https://mbaction.com/2007-trek-fuel-ex-6/amp/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

J.B. Weld said:


> I guess that depends on what your definition of "fine" is. It does work. For awhile.


Lol. I’ll upgrade it if it needs replaced. Everything fails but my old sram XO stuff still runs like new. So I’m hoping to get similar reliability out of my NX stuff. We shall see.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Guess the price in 98.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

alexbn921 said:


> Guess the price in 98.
> 
> View attachment 2003982


That may the bike that I was thinking of that a kid who rode with us had. He had so many problems with his bike. $5200


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Tallboy723 said:


> That may the bike that I was thinking of that a kid who rode with us had. He had so many problems with his bike.


It was pushing the limits. Things tend to bread on the bleeding edge.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

1998 With a frame cost of $3500, the Ibis Bow Ti was one of the most expensive bikes available at the time.









This build was around $6000.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

My First MTB. GT Pantera. Cost me $900. 95-96


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

At one time, the bike also had a set of prototype magnesium Specialized S-Works brake levers and an ultralight beryllium bottom bracket spindle that supposedly cost a thousand dollars to produce – back in 1992. Virtually every bolt on the bike is titanium.

As shown here, the bike weighs just 8.80kg (19.40lb)









The ride can be described as soft, a noodle, a swingset. There is 1/2" of backward flex in the saddle and seatpost. The cranks bend by 3/4" to lateral loads. The tips of the handlebars will twist a couple of inches up. It's a unique ride and a lot of fun as the bike floats over the terrain


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

alexbn921 said:


> Guess the price in 98.
> 
> View attachment 2003982


How funny. I ran across this today. From 20 years ago.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Good thing bikes where basically free back then.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

alexbn921 said:


> Good thing bikes where basically free back then.


My DH frame in 2002 cost almost $4500 in today's dollars.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

alexbn921 said:


> 1998 With a frame cost of $3500, the Ibis Bow Ti was one of the most expensive bikes available at the time.


And it was one of the worst, at the same time. Truly impressive.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

ttengineer said:


> An EX 6 was 1400ish. So if it’s not spot on, it’s very close.
> 
> 2007 Trek Fuel EX 6 - Mountain Bike Action Magazine
> 
> ...


In 2006, the EX6 was the cheapest Fuel Ex and it was $1540. I can't find anything solid for 2007. Maybe they knocked $100 off for 2007 ?



https://web.archive.org/web/20060428125150/http://www.onlinecycling.com/price_lists/TREK%20Price%20List%202006.htm











Mountain Bike


Mountain Bike magazine has everything for the mountain bike enthusiast, from the best mountain bike and equipment reviews to a trail database with the recommended MTB trails.



books.google.com


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Why so angry? "Joe gear weenie" isn't judging you so why judge him?


LOL. Yes, so angry. 🤡 

Do you know what 'status symbol' means? 
Start there, then think it through carefully.
Let me know if you need help.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> On sale. MSRP is $1900.


So bikes never went on sale before? Okay...

Newsflash: MSRP is for suckers.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> An EX 6 was 1400ish. So if it’s not spot on, it’s very close.
> 
> 2007 Trek Fuel EX 6 - Mountain Bike Action Magazine
> 
> ...


"it is the wrecking crew’s opinion that the EX 6 lacks the versatility and tunability to be taken seriously as a trailbike. "

Sounds sweet!

But once again, has nothing to do with anyone being 'priced out' of riding in any way.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

JEMColorado said:


> It's an old and, in my opinion, invalid argument.


Ok, so you disapprove of my razzin Chris about his "clapped out KTM", noted and inconsequential opinion. 

Concern achieves one microgiveashit.


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## urmb (Oct 4, 2005)

My 2nd mtn bike, 1988 Miyata Terra Runner was $700+. Air tube suspension, superior cantilever brakes and giant 1.9 inch tires. Oh and 36 spoked wheels. Still in the stable. Rode it once last year and oh, wow, it hurt me...LOL.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

urmb said:


> My 2nd mtn bike, 1988 Miyata Terra Runner was $700+. Air tube suspension, superior cantilever brakes and giant 1.9 inch tires. Oh and 36 spoked wheels. Still in the stable. Rode it once last year and oh, wow, it hurt me...LOL.


A classic is excellent for that ride to bring back some of the greatest memories ever. 
Where I live, there is a fairly large group that gets together for a classics only ride, some of the best times...


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Hacky Sack is pretty cheap, no?


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

urmb said:


> My 2nd mtn bike, 1988 Miyata Terra Runner was $700+. Air tube suspension, superior cantilever brakes and giant 1.9 inch tires. Oh and 36 spoked wheels. Still in the stable. Rode it once last year and oh, wow, it hurt me...LOL.


My second bike was 1988 Schwinn High Sierra. I pretty much dropped out of society at that point.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> So bikes never went on sale before? Okay...
> 
> Newsflash: MSRP is for suckers.


Although I tend to agree with you, and try to never pay full price for any item, over the last few years it has been more than difficult to find a bike under MSRP. Specifically a quality name brand bike. Especially the last 2 years. But it looks like that is all coming to an end as a lot of companies over estimated the COVID growth and have sale prices by as much as 40% in some cases. 

I remember in 2007 when I got my Stumpjumper, I was able to negotiate a nearly $1000 discount due to end of season stock and sweet talk a few upgrades at dealer cost with credit for parts replaced. That just doesn’t really happen anymore for the most part. 

I am a huge proponent of buying last season stuff at big discounts though. It’s typically how I get all my ski gear. Hell, last year I bought a 4 year old pair of skis NIB for a 75% discount. The only difference from the current season ski was the top sheet graphic. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Let me know if you need help.




Sorry I can't comprehend your brilliance. I am just a simple man.

Need help.


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

Yeah, MSRP _was_ for suckers in the bike world. This year was the first year I actually paid sticker, but went internet direct with GG so it was a slightly different story. Last years stuff is the best though. I don't need more shorts, but Yeti is closing out on some stock at steep discounts on some models. $100+ shorts for 40-60 bucks. Their stuff is nice, so nice I once paid retail when a pair gave out mid-season. That hurt.

On topic, I picked up a Cannondale F4 in '07 for ~750 bucks (that's like 120 off MSRP baby). Inflation tells me that's a hair under $1100 now. Looking at that price range it seems you can get a better drivetrain but worse (possibly much worse) fork for those dollars. That year was one of the last few American made frames for Cannondale, fwiw. 

It certainly seems like you can still get into the sport at the entry level for close to the same dollars as in the past 15-20 years in a vacuum. What I mean by that is the bike is not the only expense these days and an earlier chart showed price increases putting pressure on available dollars. That is not necessarily the bike industries job to combat. It does seem like the upper-mid to high end has MORE options now than ever before, which may lead to the illogical leap that those options are what are "needed" as they have become "common". It is still a luxury sport at the end of the day.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

tick_magnet said:


> To be fair, beginners aren't going to be crushing it and I'm not sure they will be able to break a $600 Giant Talon or a $699 Kona Lenai. We have a beginner group ride in our local club and at the typical pace we go at to make sure nobody is dropped, those bikes are definitely up to the task. What was the MSRP of the 2005 equivalent of these bikes? I'm too lazy to look it up.


My second ride on my first MTB ($700 2018 Cannondale Trail) taco'ed the front wheel all to hell. I am a bigger guy though.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

For the life of me I'm unable to source a raised chain stay frame of the early 90's. I would buy that frame in a minute if it was sized right for me. It was very popular in my group of guys for climbing. You could climb a wall if you had the leg strength. The front end stayed planted and you could turn up steep rutted/rocky switchbacks with ease.

I imagine the reason it lost popularity is because it was only good at one specific thing and overall not a good handling bike at speed.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ballisticexchris said:


> For the life of me I'm unable to source a raised chain stay frame of the early 90's.


Probably because they're all broken 🙃

Seriously though there are a lot better climbing bikes available now if that's what you want. Also better at everything else.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Seriously though there are a lot better climbing bikes available now if that's what you want. Also better at everything else.


Inquiring minds would like to know? I have yet to see a modern geometry bike (with a novice rider aboard) able to climb steeps like those early elevated stay bikes. I can manage with my Slash but it is not designed for climbing. And I have noticed the hardtail XC bikes are not much better.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ballisticexchris said:


> Inquiring minds would like to know? I have yet to see a modern geometry bike (with a novice rider aboard) able to climb steeps like those early elevated stay bikes. I can manage with my Slash but it is not designed for climbing. And I have noticed the hardtail XC bikes are not much better.




I don't know about that, I did a lot of riding in the 89's and 90's and what you're saying sounds like nostalgia to me. Any nice full suspension xc-ish bike today is a much more capable climber than any of those mini-wheel relics. IMO.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't know about that, I did a lot of riding in the 89's and 90's and what you're saying sounds like nostalgia to me. Any nice full suspension xc-ish bike today is a much more capable climber than any of those mini-wheel relics. IMO.


Good point. It's easy to get caught up in the "older I get the faster I was" way of thinking.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

ballisticexchris said:


> Good point. It's easy to get caught up in the "older I get the faster I was" way of thinking.


100%. Plus bikes weren't descending all that fast back then, so climbs probably felt faster by comparison.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Sorry I can't comprehend your brilliance. I am just a simple man.
> 
> Need help.


I would start with a dictionary.


The entire purpose of a status symbol is for someone to try to signify superiority or a higher status of one type or another to those around them, or possibly even to themselves, based on possession(s). 

So by definition, those who buy and view items as status symbols do so based on a mentality of judging people based on what they've purchased (or not purchased).
That's how they work. 

Hope that helps.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Not everyone who purchases something others consider a status symbol thinks it's a status symbol though. Life's weird. Things are complicated. Trying to put your motivations in to others actions usually fails.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> Not everyone who purchases something others consider a status symbol thinks it's a status symbol though. Life's weird. Things are complicated. Trying to put your motivations in to others actions usually fails.


I was replying to someone who specifically brought up that angle (and never said it applies to everyone though the original poster did, to an extent).
Which should have been obvious based on the fact that I quoted them in my reply. LOL.

"A highend mountain bike is to a certain extent a status symbol. Carbon wheels, Carbon frames, electronics shifting, ect... is statement about your wealth and tastes. The costs of having your mountain bike as a status symbol keeps going up and up getting out of reach of some of us. "


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## Goodskie (May 25, 2017)

dysfunction said:


> Disc golf is cheaper. So, there's that.


I’m a firefighter (not a dentist) and I work a lot over overtime. I disc golf and mountain bike. I have a custom sworks stumpy evo, just sold a custom carbon epic evo for what I paid but included lots of extras like the original wheel set, extra bars etc that I bought for it over a year period. I have at least 1k in discs and a $500 disc golf bag. I work a lot of OT and buy what I want, not what I need. I used to be poor but I grind and did/do what I have/had to to be able to afford what I want. If I was making what I was just 3 years ago I’d still be on a 2k bike with less discs. Either way I get to enjoy my fave things in life. I agree with OP and if you’re poor, work to get the life you want and if you’re disabled well you prob can’t shred anyway or you have to accept things and do what you have to do to be happy.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> I was replying to someone who specifically brought up that angle (and never said it applies to everyone though the original poster did, to an extent).
> Which should have been obvious based on the fact that I quoted them in my reply. LOL.
> 
> "A highend mountain bike is to a certain extent a status symbol. Carbon wheels, Carbon frames, electronics shifting, ect... is statement about your wealth and tastes. The costs of having your mountain bike as a status symbol keeps going up and up getting out of reach of some of us. "


I didn't quote you for a reason.


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## Goodskie (May 25, 2017)

slapheadmofo said:


> I was replying to someone who specifically brought up that angle (and never said it applies to everyone though the original poster did, to an extent).
> Which should have been obvious based on the fact that I quoted them in my reply. LOL.
> 
> "A highend mountain bike is to a certain extent a status symbol. Carbon wheels, Carbon frames, electronics shifting, ect... is statement about your wealth and tastes. The costs of having your mountain bike as a status symbol keeps going up and up getting out of reach of some of us. "


There’s truth to this. I don’t need a carbon sworks frame or carbon wheels (tho I **** alloy wheels up) but you have to look very closely to see my frame says “sworks”) but I want them so I work OT. I don’t show off and people in my life don’t know what I spend or have even bc I don’t tell people.

If I wasn’t able to work OT and wanted a good bike I’d have a used alloy bike and be happy. Maybe people should focus on what they should and can do to be happy and stop caring what others do.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't know about that, I did a lot of riding in the 89's and 90's and what you're saying sounds like nostalgia to me. Any nice full suspension xc-ish bike today is a much more capable climber than any of those mini-wheel relics. IMO.


This 1000%
Old bikes that climbed good either had a ton of pedal kick back or a lock out and then sucked on technical climbs. 

I don't miss the noodles bikes with super long stems of yesteryear. Although my super V is fun to ride around town.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Goodskie said:


> There’s truth to this. I don’t need a carbon sworks frame or carbon wheels (tho I **** alloy wheels up) but you have to look very closely to see my frame says “sworks”) but I want them so I work OT. I don’t show off and people in my life don’t know what I spend or have even bc I don’t tell people.
> 
> If I wasn’t able to work OT and wanted a good bike I’d have a used alloy bike and be happy. Maybe people should focus on what they should and can do to be happy and stop caring what others do.


Which is kind of to my point. I can afford any bike out there, but I simply don't see any real value beyond a certain point. I don't need to burn money to try to impress strangers or make myself feel superior (or un-inferior) to others in some way. I tend to find those who do to be pretty frigging lame honestly. 🤷‍♂️

But there are many people here (and out there in the greater MTB world) who absolutely judge others based on conspicuous purchases.

"Oh, you must not be able to afford x,y,z because you don't have it on display."

"Oh, you didn't buy one of these, you must not be a 'real mountain biker'".

"I chose to spend more on this particular doodad, so I'm obviously wealthier and superior to those who didn't."

Yeah, okay...


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> Which is kind of to my point. I can afford any bike out there, but I simply don't see any real value beyond a certain point. I don't need to burn money to try to impress strangers or make myself feel superior others in some way. I tend to find those who do to be pretty frigging lame honestly. 🤷‍♂️
> 
> But there are many people here (and out there in the greater MTB world) who absolutely judge others based on conspicuous purchases.
> 
> ...





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> I would start with a dictionary.
> 
> Hope that helps.



Yes did Google "status symbol" because I was unfamiliar with that term. Still I was confused because your wording order made it sound like things like electronic shifting and carbon fiber are by default status symbols.

Thanks for dumbing it down for me, I really appreciate the help.


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## NC_Foothills_Rider (11 mo ago)

ballisticexchris said:


> LOL!! Actually it was the biggest money pit of a motorcycle I ever owned. Partly due to racing and also the fact it was a KTM.


KTM = Known to Malfunction, or so I've heard.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> Yes did Google "status symbol" because I was unfamiliar with that term. Still I was confused because your wording order made it sound like things like electronic shifting and carbon fiber are by default status symbols.
> 
> Thanks for dumbing it down for me, I really appreciate the help.



LOL. It wasn't my wording. Those words are inside quotation marks because...I was quoting someone else!
I also said that it doesn't apply to everyone, and therefore NOT by default.

Geez...dude...maybe slow down and read before rushing to 'correct'?
I know you've got a little thing for me but man...

😘



slapheadmofo said:


> I was replying to someone who specifically brought up that angle (and never said it applies to everyone though the original poster did, to an extent).
> Which should have been obvious based on the fact that I quoted them in my reply. LOL.
> 
> "A highend mountain bike is to a certain extent a status symbol. Carbon wheels, Carbon frames, electronics shifting, ect... is statement about your wealth and tastes. The costs of having your mountain bike as a status symbol keeps going up and up getting out of reach of some of us. "


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> LOL. It wasn't my wording. Those words are inside quotation marks because...I was quoting someone else!
> I also said that it doesn't apply to everyone, and therefore NOT by default.
> 
> Geez...dude...maybe slow down and read before rushing to 'correct'?
> ...





As mentioned, thanks for your help.


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## NC_Foothills_Rider (11 mo ago)

chazpat said:


> Or maybe they are really into riding but are more into the ride than the equipment. I really enjoy my $700 rigid SS. It's not because I can't afford gears and suspension, I can. Full disclosure: I have a number of other bikes, though none were what we consider here to be expensive. If it all came crashing down and all I had to ride was my v-brakes 26er SS, I would still be riding. And I would still be enjoying it.


^^^This^^^

Just took my old AL 26" Trek HT out last week to my home trail and set 3 PRs on it. How in the.... 

My 2¢: It's easier and cheaper to get into MTB now than it was when I did back in the 1995. I paid over $700 for a Trek AL HT with rigid fork, not even an "SHX" model. I sold some other stuff to help pay for it. At the time my take home pay as an engineer was just over $500 a week.

Now, anybody can look on Craigslist or FB market place and pick up an older but still high quality and rideable MTB for under $400. I'm not talking Walmart junk, but good old Specialized, Trek, Giant, GT, and many other brands.

They aren't as capable as new bikes for sure but that doesn't mean you can't have a blast on them or be pretty fast, particularly on trails suited to XC bikes.

Do I prefer my Tallboy 4 over the old Trek 7000? Of course. But if something happened to the TB I'd still be riding that old Trek, just for the love of the sport.

I encourage others who are interested to start with a used HT from the 2000s and see if they really enjoy riding. If they do then then they can shell out some $$$ for a nicer bike.

I'd say the cost of entry to MTB is now as low as as it's ever been in terms of a beginner being able to buy a decent bike that won't fall apart on trails for very little money compared to when I started.

The used market for MTB back then was a lot thinner and you had to look at newspaper classifieds.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

_CJ said:


> It goes even deeper than that. I recently listened to a podcast with a Harvard economist who did a study that followed people from kindergarten to adulthood, and he found that just the quality of a person's kindergarten experience could result in a difference of $300,000 in career earnings.


Sorry, but I’m not buying that, *unless* kindergarten is a substitute for a nurturing family and common sense. I attended a two-room school for grades 1-6 (what’s kindergarten?) and was the first person in my family to get past 9th grade. This foundation enabled an engineering degree and a great life. Even so, ya’ gotta drive rust bucket cars for a season before buying halo bikes. My younger brother built a fantastic portfolio of businesses with his HVAC training, wisdom, frugality, and hard work, so now he’s the decamillionaire next door. This country is simply chock-full of opportunity, even today.

With wisdom, patience (deferred gratification), and fire in the belly, time does the heavy lifting. *Compound interest separates the rich from the broke*. Here’s Einstein’s take, a guy who was pretty good with math . . . “Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it … he who doesn't … pays it.” Jun 29, 2022

This wonder works in reverse too, but as a curse. Too many folks flip the script and struggle financially for life. Of course you need to enjoy your life along the way, so moderation in all things, including frugality. Lots of solid, inexpensive used bikes out there, as noted above by @NC_Foothills_Rider.


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

I think most people who are very intimidated by pricing are new to the sport, or perhaps returning and experiencing sticker shock.

Even entry-level bikes are well over $500 now and if you are unsure whether you will stick with it, that can be a hefty investment.

And newbs and returning riders don't know what they don't know, which is how much better a $3500 bike is than it used to be.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

So after pondering this deep question overnight, I've come to the conclusion that it's not really hard to get into this sport. $600 Giant Talon. $50 Giant Relay helmet (that gets five star crash ratings), some worn out trail running shoes (you don't need a stiff sole that will squeeze out that 0.001 efficiency when you are a noob). A moisture wicking workout shirt, and maybe some padded shorts from last season off Amazon for about $40, and a tough ego to deal with the idiots that will judge you. 

This is perfectly fine for probably the first year, maybe even two. Then once you know the limits of the bike and components, you can make informed purchases that delivers value rather than hype.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

alexbn921 said:


> This 1000%
> Old bikes that climbed good either had a ton of pedal kick back or a lock out and then sucked on technical climbs.
> 
> I don't miss the noodles bikes with super long stems of yesteryear. Although my super V is fun to ride around town.


The old "gobs of traction" while the rear squatted and the front end lifted off like a saturn V rocket. We had to use ridiculous travel lock-down devices just to try and keep the front wheel on the ground. It was madness.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

tick_magnet said:


> So after pondering this deep question overnight, I've come to the conclusion that it's not really hard to get into this sport. $600 Giant Talon. $50 Giant Relay helmet (that gets five star crash ratings), some worn out trail running shoes (you don't need a stiff sole that will squeeze out that 0.001 efficiency when you are a noob). A moisture wicking workout shirt, and maybe some padded shorts from last season off Amazon for about $40, and a tough ego to deal with the idiots that will judge you.
> 
> This is perfectly fine for probably the first year, maybe even two...


This pretty much describes me after 35 years of MTB.


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## Horseshoe (May 31, 2018)

My wife and I are DINKs and while i could afford a dentist bike, I'm also obsessed with bargains and am still having a blast on the Diamondback Release 3 I bought four years ago for $2200 bucks when the "corporate discount" was still a thing. Compared to the first mt bike I bought in 91 (Schwinn MP 21) that cost me damn near a month's wages and didn't even have a suspension fork, I figure I got a hell of a lot more for the money than I did back then.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tick_magnet said:


> So after pondering this deep question overnight, I've come to the conclusion that it's not really hard to get into this sport. $600 Giant Talon. $50 Giant Relay helmet (that gets five star crash ratings), some worn out trail running shoes (you don't need a stiff sole that will squeeze out that 0.001 efficiency when you are a noob). A moisture wicking workout shirt, and maybe some padded shorts from last season off Amazon for about $40, and a tough ego to deal with the idiots that will judge you.
> 
> This is perfectly fine for probably the first year, maybe even two. Then once you know the limits of the bike and components, you can make informed purchases that delivers value rather than hype.


And you can get a used Talon even cheaper...or spend that same $600 on a well preserved older wunderbike.

I recently sold an 06 (I think) carbon Ibis Mojo that MSRPed over $5k, in decent shape, for $400. Guy took it to a shop, had a few things fixed and bam...now he's out there having fun and getting judged by dorks who find it impossible to ride without electronic shifting.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

tick_magnet said:


> So after pondering this deep question overnight, I've come to the conclusion that it's not really hard to get into this sport.


This is fundamentally true. But I empathize with beginners because they aren't armed with the knowledge / experience to know where a functional bike begins or where value begins to taper off. You don't know what you don't know... so it can be confusing... Ultimately it's easy to have missteps on either end: too budget and no reasonable utility for the job at hand....or... overbuy, over spend chasing FOMO.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Carl Mega said:


> This is fundamentally true. But I empathize with beginners because they aren't armed with the knowledge / experience to know where a functional bike begins or where value begins to taper off. You don't know what you don't know... so it can be confusing... Ultimately it's easy to have missteps on either end: too budget and no reasonable utility for the job at hand....or... overbuy, over spend chasing FOMO.


It's tough when you go online to gain some knowledge and you have a bunch of people give you shitty advice regarding how much you 'have to' spend to ride as well.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Carl Mega said:


> This is fundamentally true. But I empathize with beginners because they aren't armed with the knowledge / experience to know where a functional bike begins or where value begins to taper off. You don't know what you don't know... so it can be confusing... Ultimately it's easy to have missteps on either end: too budget and no reasonable utility for the job at hand....or... overbuy, over spend chasing FOMO.


This is very true. I think the biggest challenge facing new riders is not the cost of the equipment but the cost of bad advice.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Really, it's all about priorities.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

tick_magnet said:


> $600 (bike). $50 helmet (that gets five star crash ratings), some worn out shoes A moisture wicking workout shirt, and maybe some padded shorts from last season off Amazon for about $40, and a tough ego to deal with the idiots that will judge you.
> 
> This is perfectly fine for probably the first year, maybe even two. Then once you know the limits of the bike and components, you can make informed purchases that delivers value rather than hype.


This pretty much describes me, and I've been riding for 30+ years. 

I _could_ buy a much more expensive bike, I just don't care to. There's a certain novelty in riding bikes most would consider garbage, and riding them well.


.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

_CJ said:


> This pretty much describes me, and I've been riding for 30+ years.
> 
> I _could_ buy a much more expensive bike, I just don't care to. There's a certain novelty in riding bikes most would consider garbage, and riding them well.


Some dude on the internet told me none of this can happen. The sales guy at his LBS said so.


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## NC_Foothills_Rider (11 mo ago)

slapheadmofo said:


> And you can get a used Talon even cheaper...or spend that same $600 on a well preserved older wunderbike.
> 
> I recently sold an 06 (I think) carbon Ibis Mojo that MSRPed over $5k, in decent shape, for $400. Guy took it to a shop, had a few things fixed and bam...now he's out there having fun and getting judged by dorks who find it impossible to ride without electronic shifting.



LOL gear-shaming is a thing. It's happened to me a couple of times -- 'dentists' commenting on how old or low-end my HT is. I think it's funny because I can ride the crap out of the old POS and often times end up passing people who's custom paint jobs or carbon wheelsets cost more than my whole bike and gear ensemble.

Disclaimer: I still ride my new bike about 10x for every ride on the old one.

One thing about getting older is that you just don't give a s**t what anyone thinks any more about stuff like your bike, your car, your house etc. As long as it works for YOU.

That said I never gear-shame. I only encourage others who I see as making an effort, like being cool and helpful to the fat guy at the gym.

Everybody has to start somewhere and it takes time, often significant amounts, to acheive the lofty heights of awesome attained by those of us here in this thread.


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## eshew (Jan 30, 2004)

This was $3500 back in 2004, tell me you can't get more bike for your money now....

EVERYTHING is better now, also consider inflation... $3500 in 2004 dollars is equivalent to $5,450.00 today


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

NC_Foothills_Rider said:


> LOL gear-shaming is a thing. It's happened to me a couple of times -- 'dentists' commenting on how old or low-end my HT is. I think it's funny because I can ride the crap out of the old POS and often times end up passing people who's custom paint jobs or carbon wheelsets cost more than my whole bike and gear ensemble.


I used to take pride in riding the cheapest bike in the pack. 

Not the case at the moment, but there are been many many rides where I've had the oldest/ cheapest bike of the bunch. Strangely doesn't affect performance as much as people would like to think.


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## NC_Foothills_Rider (11 mo ago)

Ogre said:


> I used to take pride in riding the cheapest bike in the pack.
> 
> Not the case at the moment, but there are been many many rides where I've had the oldest/ cheapest bike of the bunch. Strangely doesn't affect performance as much as people would like to think.


You're right. Sometimes I'm the guy on the old iron blowing by people and it's fun in a way.

And some other times I;m the guy on the new FS 29er getting overtaken by the older (than me) guy on a 2000 Mongoose HT with a Judy XC and V-brakes. That's humbling TBH.

It's more about the rider than the bike till you get to top levels of competition where every rider is highly skilled. Then minor differences in the bikes might be all that differentiates a win from a 3rd place finish.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Equipment whoring just seems like a natural thing that cuts across so many sports. I also run and it's unbelievable how many brain cells and greenbacks are wasted on carbon plated "super shoes" that deliver about 0.001% of the gains that somebody could achieve by just putting a tiny bit of thought into their training.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

_"It is vain to do with more what can be done with less."_
William of Ockham


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

This thread has become a prime example of gear shaming


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## TwiceHorn (Jun 18, 2014)

Gear-shaming is such a low-down, dirty thing. I'm fundamentally a cheapskate, so I try not to indulge in the arms races that tend to characterize men's hobbies. But, I have progressed from a $500 hardtail, to a pretty good entry-level FS, to a mid-level but critically acclaimed bike. Each step up shocked me a bit as to how much better the new one was, after becoming familiar with the prior bike.

I'd never gear-shame anyone. But, sometimes the limitations of lower-end bikes come up in conversation with other riders and that presents an opportunity to extol the virtues of better gear, on occasion.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

NC_Foothills_Rider said:


> LOL gear-shaming is a thing. It's happened to me a couple of times


The genesis rebellion of the consumerism and gear fetish in mountain biking was the original ethos of single speeding. Reductionist gear mindset with a prevailing theme that grit cannot be purchased. A sporty smugness by demonstrating... and demolishing the narrative that you 'need this thing' to ride X. 

Sure, that movement swayed from the original inspiration. But there's always some strong geezer in jeans or teen ager on a clapped out rig that proves the point and that your gear will always take a back seat to the rider. It's a needed and grounding experience for some.

While I appreciate the spectrum - cycling is for everyone - from gear hogs gollums to poor chip on the shoulders types... The middle way is best for most, but it's easy to get caught up in GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) because... it's easy. Like literally the easiest thing you can do in the sport is buy something. But meaningful improvement takes work and time so it's a bit of a harder sell.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Wait, telling newbs that they can enter the sport on a Giant Talon and that they don't need a S-Works is gear shaming?


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Carl Mega said:


> The genesis rebellion of the consumerism and gear fetish in mountain biking was the original ethos of single speeding. Reductionist gear mindset with a prevailing theme that grit cannot be purchased. A sporty smugness by demonstrating... and demolishing the narrative that you 'need this thing' to ride X.
> 
> Sure, that movement swayed from the original inspiration. But there's always some strong geezer in jeans or teen ager on a clapped out rig that proves the point and that your gear will always take a back seat to the rider. It's a needed and grounding experience for some.
> 
> While I appreciate the spectrum - cycling is for everyone - from gear hogs gollums to poor chip on the shoulders types... The middle way is best for most, but it's easy to get caught up in GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) because... it's easy. Like literally the easiest thing you can do in the sport is buy something. But meaningful improvement takes work and time so it's a bit of a harder sell.


Well put.

Someone is always going to be able to one up you. It’s better to want something because you think it will bring you added utility or value, even if only perceived and not actual, rather than because it will act as a symbol of your social standing and thus bring you happiness. The former perspective _might_ make you happy. The latter certainly will not.


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

tick_magnet said:


> Wait, telling newbs that they can enter the sport on a Giant Talon and that they don't need a S-Works is gear shaming?


Outside of dot.com bros with cash to burn, who the hell recommends an S-works bike to a beginner?!


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Seems like the gear shaming goes both ways on this thread.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Bikeventures said:


> Outside of dot.com bros with cash to burn, who the hell recommends an S-works bike to a beginner?!


Ok, I was a little over dramatic with my hyperbole. My point is that many newbs think they need a certain level of bike to get into the sport and they are often told this. They don't. They can literally get in for less than $750 or so and that is buying new.


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

$750? Ok money bags. 

All my beginner friends start on $400 Costco bikes




__





Loading…






www.costco.com


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

The thing about running cheaper bikes is often times those guys running them aren’t riding alone. They are riding with buddies who have been in the sport longer and run substantially better bikes. So the pressure to keep up increases with a bike that literally can’t keep up. 

That’s probably where this thread should head. It’s common knowledge that bikes now are better and more capable than they were 10-20 years ago. Even less exotic builds are significantly better. 

So in order to keep up with pace, new riders are having to drop more money than new riders of the past so they do not get left behind. 

For instance, I ride a well equipped Ripmo, my usual riding partners ride about an equally equipped Mojo HD4 and a Santa Cruz Tallboy respectively. We have a 4th friend who skis with us that we are trying to convince to buy a bike and ride with us. I personally am pushing hard for him to get a Ripmo AF. Because the fact is, if he goes and buys a $1500 Marin or Polygon, he will not be able to keep up as the limitations of the bike will hit faster than those of our bikes. 

Now on the other hand if a lone guy wants to start riding on his spare time alone, I’d have no problem recommending a $1500 bike, but I’d push them to buy the most expensive bike they are willing to purchase, to a point, as there are significant performances gains in suspension from a $1500 bike to say a $3100 bike like the Ripmo AF. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

tengineer, why does a lone guy who just wants to start riding need "significant performance gains in suspension"? Sometimes I lead the newb group on our group rides and we are not going anywhere near a pace that requires high performance suspension, let alone suspension. We mostly avoid the technical parts of the trail too. 

Also, I suspect your buddy won't be able to keep up with you guys even if you put him on a S-Works Stumpjumper for at least a couple years. And by that time, he might decide he wants to go a different direction with his bike choice anyways.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

TwiceHorn said:


> Even entry-level bikes are well over $500 now and if you are unsure whether you will stick with it, that can be a hefty investment.






tick_magnet said:


> Ok, I was a little over dramatic with my hyperbole. My point is that many newbs think they need a certain level of bike to get into the sport and they are often told this. They don't. They can literally get in for less than $750 or so and that is buying new.




Recommending s-works for a beginner is probably bad advice. Recommending a $500 Giant might not be so great either. Yes they can work ok for certain trails but they are sorely lacking for anything remotely technical.

I always recommend beginners buying something a little more capable, not because I'm trying to upsell them and increase profits but because I've seen first hand the unsatisfactory results of buying a product that's not up to the task. I hear a lot of talk but I doubt anyone here is riding the equivalent of something like that.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Bikeventures said:


> $750? Ok money bags.
> 
> All my beginner friends start on $400 Costco bikes
> 
> ...


A good number of mine start on one of my loaners.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

tick_magnet said:


> tengineer, why does a lone guy who just wants to start riding need "significant performance gains in suspension"? Sometimes I lead the newb group on our group rides and we are not going anywhere near a pace that requires high performance suspension, let alone suspension. We mostly avoid the technical parts of the trail too.
> 
> Also, I suspect your buddy won't be able to keep up with you guys even if you put him on a S-Works Stumpjumper for at least a couple years. And by that time, he might decide he wants to go a different direction with his bike choice anyways.


A lone guy riding at his own pace doesn’t need it. That’s the point. But if you have a group of friends that you want to keep up with, I would highly recommend something better than a $1500 bike. Wouldn’t you?

My buddy is fit and athletic. He’ll catch on just fine in no time. Especially if he takes a lesson or two. Besides, he’s rented a bike to ride with us before, and he may not have the technical skill to keep up just yet, but his fitness compensates. 


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Recommending s-works for a beginner is probably bad advice. Recommending a $500 Giant might not be so great either. Yes they can work ok for certain trails but they are sorely lacking for anything remotely technical.
> 
> I always recommend beginners buying something a little more capable, not because I'm trying to upsell them and increase profits but because I've seen first hand the unsatisfactory results of buying a product that's not up to the task. I hear a lot of talk but I doubt anyone here is riding the equivalent of something like that.


JB, generally I'm going to agree with you that it's better to buy a more capable bike than a less capable bike to a point if you can afford it. But the theme of the thread is barriers to entry and being priced out. A $500-$600 Talon or Rockhopper can handle way more than people give them credit for. A couple local guys have even raced CAT 1 (yes CAT1) races with them. Not saying that's the bike they _should_ be racing but what it does say is that these bikes can deal with plenty of abuse and are more than enough for someone who is looking to get into mtb.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

ttengineer said:


> The thing about running cheaper bikes is often times those guys running them aren’t riding alone. They are riding with buddies who have been in the sport longer and run substantially better bikes. So the *pressure to keep up* increases with a bike that literally can’t keep up.


That's a different issue, but still important. When we ride with beginners my wife leads and sets a slow, steady pace (although she's faster than I am). One of our friends thanked her after his first ride in several outings without a crash. He reminds us "Slower is smoother and smoother is faster". That crash-free ride also gave him a PR. It's fun to ride at a moderate pace with beginners and celebrate with them over a beer afterward. We learn from the process too, goofing around a bit to spice things up. It's all good fun.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

tick_magnet said:


> A $500-$600 Talon or Rockhopper can handle way more than people give them credit for. A couple local guys have even raced CAT 1 (yes CAT1) races with them.




Like I said, I've ridden them plenty and see the results when people buy them and start riding much trail. Components (expensive ones) are quickly replaced and they are still left with a sub par frame and a less than satisfactory experience.


Possibly our trails are rougher here.

And yeah, they could be raced but I'm extremely skeptical that anyone is riding one competitively in a cat 1 race.


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

I think everyone is basing on their personal experiences, but I don't think there is a true one size fits all for what beginners should get. It really depends on where and how they plan to ride.

From my experience, I see low conversion on guys who start with hardtrails. We'll show newbies a few flow trails to start them out, but that can only go on for a couple rides. Then we take them to intermediate trails and that's when trails start to get chunky. In my area, I think you're better off starting with a used full suspension than a new hardtail. Should you get hooked, then you can shop for a new bike.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Like I said, I've ridden them plenty and see the results when people buy them and start riding much trail. Components (expensive ones) are quickly replaced and they are still left with a sub par frame and a less than satisfactory experience.
> 
> 
> Possibly our trails are rougher here.
> ...


You are missing the point. I never said they should be riding those things to be at the pointy end of the distribution. The point is not that they those give competitive advantage. The point is they can take abuse and even a last place CAT 1 rider is putting more abuse on them than your run of the mill newb. 

And btw, are we talking about barriers to entry or something else? Because a guy with a budget of say $700 is a guy with a budget of $700. Telling him he should buy a $1000 bike is raising the barrier to entry.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> I always recommend beginners buying something a little more capable, not because I'm trying to upsell them and increase profits but because I've seen first hand the unsatisfactory results of buying a product that's not up to the task. I hear a lot of talk but I doubt anyone here is riding the equivalent of something like that.


My $175 RM Blizzard gets out somewhat regularly. 
I have a good time on it. It's actually more fun than my new bike in some ways.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> That’s probably where this thread should head. It’s common knowledge that bikes now are better and more capable than they were 10-20 years ago. Even less exotic builds are significantly better.
> 
> So in order to keep up with pace, new riders are having to drop more money than new riders of the past so they do not get left behind.


But they're not being priced out of the sport. 
Maybe they're just being 'priced out' of trying to keep up with certain group Type A's who can't be bothered to ride at a more chilled pace with a beginner. 
Luckily, there's a lot more to mountain biking than playing that particular game.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

alexbn921 said:


> Old bikes that climbed good either had a ton of pedal kick back or a lock out and then sucked on technical climbs.


I don't remember that with the raised chain stay bikes. They were hardtail beasts on steep technical climbs. The same hills today I struggle to keep the front end planted, were no issue with the "dedicated climbing geometry" of 30+ years ago. 

The drawback was that downhills, fast trail riding, and pretty much everything else kind of sucked in the handling department. Manufacturers are now producing bikes that are pretty good everywhere and not focused at just hillclimbs. Heck even in the motorcycle world a dedicated hill climb machine is horrible at anything other than one single gear pinned going up. Setting up swing arm length is key for getting traction and keeping the front wheel down.

I imagine the reason is the market is just not there for guys like me who have more fun on slow technical uphills and don't care much about the speed going down. 

I knew going in that my bike (Trek Slash) was not the best choice for a hillclimbing rig. However I'm adapting to it nicely.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

tick_magnet said:


> You are missing the point. I never said they should be riding those things to be at the pointy end of the distribution. The point is not that they those give competitive advantage. The point is they can take abuse and even a last place CAT 1 rider is putting more abuse on them than your run of the mill newb.
> 
> And btw, are we talking about barriers to entry or something else? Because a guy with a budget of say $700 is a guy with a budget of $700. Telling him he should buy a $1000 bike is raising the barrier to entry.





I could ride a Marlin 5 in a cat 1 race but I couldn't race it. Big difference. 

Also I couldn't ride one in very many cat 1 races without plenty of maintenance and parts replacing.

I'm surprised anyone would really argue against that.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

tick_magnet said:


> And btw, are we talking about barriers to entry or something else? Because a guy with a budget of say $700 is a guy with a budget of $700. Telling him he should buy a $1000 bike is raising the barrier to entry.



It is raising the entry point. You’re right. But on that point, is proof that because bikes are more capable now, the average bike on trail would blow the doors off a $700 bike, no? 

Hasn’t that data point for a capable industry standard entry level bike moved up in cost compared to 10 or 20 years ago? 

The wide variety of trail bikes can handle has certainly increased, but does that hold true for that $700 bike? 

All things being equal, if a person 20 years ago bought a $700 bike how would that bike compare to the available field of bikes at the time? 

Would an equivalently priced bike now stand in the same place for performance among new bikes? 


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> I could ride a Marlin 5 in a cat 1 race but I couldn't race it. Big difference.
> 
> Also I couldn't ride one in very many cat 1 races without plenty of maintenance and parts replacing.
> 
> I'm surprised anyone would really argue against that.


Maybe we should change the thread to 'economically disadvantaged beginner mountain bikers are being priced out of racing Cat 1"?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> It is raising the entry point. You’re right. But on that point, is proof that because bikes are more capable now, the average bike on trail would blow the doors off a $700 bike, no?
> 
> Hasn’t that data point for a capable industry standard entry level bike moved up in cost compared to 10 or 20 years ago?
> 
> ...


You forgot "What does any of this have to do with whether or not someone can go ride today?"


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> I could ride a Marlin 5 in a cat 1 race but I couldn't race it. Big difference.
> 
> Also I couldn't ride one in very many cat 1 races without plenty of maintenance and parts replacing.
> 
> I'm surprised anyone would really argue against that.


God gawd man. Not sure I could have simplified it further. You are right, those bikes can't handle a newb whatsoever. A guy with a budget of $700 shouldn't bother and pick up running instead.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Maybe we should change the thread to 'beginner mountain bikers are being priced out of racing Cat 1"?





Yeah I was only responding to that particular question from another poster. 

Most of my post you took that from was spent talking about why the cheapest bikes aren't always a good choice for beginners. And at least around here they rarely are.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

tick_magnet said:


> God gawd man. Not sure I could have simplified it further. You are right, those bikes can't handle a newb whatsoever. A guy with a budget of $700 shouldn't bother and pick up running instead.




Hyperbole runs rampant here. That is not what I said at all.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> But they're not being priced out of the sport.
> Maybe they're just being 'priced out' of trying to keep up with certain group Type A's who can't be bothered to ride at a more chilled pace with a beginner.
> Luckily, there's a lot more to mountain biking than playing that particular game.


Certainly a fair point. 

And I don’t think anyone should try to “keep up with the Jones’” 

But isn’t it more fun to be able to actually ride with your friends and not get left behind on a big decent? 


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ballisticexchris said:


> I don't remember that with the raised chain stay bikes. They were hardtail beasts on steep technical climbs. The same hills today I struggle to keep the front end planted, were no issue with the "dedicated climbing geometry" of 30+ years ago.


That has nothing to do with whether the chainstays were elevated or not.
The only thing they really did was reduce the chance of chainsuck and make a little more room for a FD.
Other than that, basically a fashion exercise.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> Certainly a fair point.
> 
> And I don’t think anyone should try to “keep up with the Jones’”
> 
> But isn’t it more fun to be able to actually ride with your friends and not get left behind on a big decent?


Sure, if you can afford a higher end bike and it's worth it to you, then absolutely, go for it.
But if you can't, that doesn't mean you can't still enjoy the sport, right?


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> Hyperbole runs rampant here. That is not what I said at all.


Not sure what you are trying to say. Yes, I know, the cheapest bike is not always the best choice. That is correct. People buying at the low end rarely have good options. But we are talking about barriers to entry here are we not? Or are we talking about people with options? Should a person without good options but can afford a bad option not get into the sport?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

tick_magnet said:


> Not sure what you are trying to say. Yes, I know, the cheapest bike is not always the best choice. That is correct. People buying at the low end rarely have good options. But we are talking about barriers to entry here are we not? Or are we talking about people with options? Should a person without good options but can afford a bad option not get into the sport?


No XT, no ride.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

slapheadmofo said:


> That has nothing to do with whether the chainstays were elevated or not.
> The only thing they really did was reduce the chance of chainsuck and make a little more room for a FD.
> Other than that, basically a fashion exercise.


If you never ridden a steep technical climb on one then you wouldn't understand. The whole geometry of the bike from chain stay to head tube angles was designed as a no compromise climbing rig. It was a popular bike for the hillclimbing crew I hung out with. In todays market I doubt it would sell.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

ttengineer said:


> But isn’t it more fun to be able to actually ride with your friends and not get left behind on a big decent?


This doesn't have to be an equipment fueled solution. This rider, who is already physically capable of hanging with his buddies, may decide to develop skills that allow him to keep up with his buddies on a lesser bike than what they are riding.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

tick_magnet said:


> People buying at the low end rarely have good options.




That's the part I don't think is true. IME most do.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> No XT, no ride.




I'm not sure anyone here has actually said that.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

ballisticexchris said:


> If you never ridden a steep technical climb on one then you wouldn't understand. The whole geometry of the bike from chain stay to head tube angles was designed as a no compromise climbing rig. It was a popular bike for the hillclimbing crew I hung out with. In todays market I doubt it would sell.


In the late 1980s I worked for dealers carrying Fisher and Alpinestars, both of which had elevated chainstay bikes. If there was any geometry difference between those and the GT bikes and other brands we also sold, the differences were negligible. The effective chainstay length could be minimized with the elevated design, but the wheel size still determined the absolute minimum, so the difference wasn't more than a few mm,


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's the part I don't think is true. IME most do.


A barrier to entry is a threshold for affordability. It is not a made up threshold by someone who is just cheap but can actually afford a slightly more expensive bike (even for their own good). I can assure you there are people in this world that truly only can afford a $700 bike (or $600 or $500 for that matter).


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ballisticexchris said:


> If you never ridden a steep technical climb on one then you wouldn't understand. The whole geometry of the bike from chain stay to head tube angles was designed as a no compromise climbing rig. It was a popular bike for the hillclimbing crew I hung out with. In todays market I doubt it would sell.


Because all elevated CS bikes used the same geometry. And it was and is impossible to put together the same geometry without raising the CS.
And of course, I've never ridden either a E-CS bike, nor done a steep technical climb.
And it's me that doesn't understand.

You go with that.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> I'm not sure anyone here has actually said that.


I think it was actually XTR.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Someone should price ice hockey


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

Bikeventures said:


> In my area, I think you're better off starting with a used full suspension than a new hardtail. Should you get hooked, then you can shop for a new bike.


Around here *used* hard tails are a common entry point. Ride it for a season and sell it for nearly what you paid.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

mlx john said:


> Seems like the gear shaming goes both ways on this thread.


Complaining about gear being "Overpriced", then talking about high end gear as if it's an assumption or a requirement is what most of us are making fun of. 

I ride mid-high end gear myself a lot of times. No "Shame" in it. But people complaining about people getting priced out and acting like $6,000 is the price to get into the sport is nonsense.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

Bikeventures said:


> $750? Ok money bags.
> 
> All my beginner friends start on $400 Costco bikes
> 
> ...


That's about what I paid and where I bought my first mountain bike ~25 years ago. 

3 months later I broke it and had a better idea of what I needed. Honestly not a terrible starting point. Better than spending $4000 on a bike only to discover it's the wrong size/ wrong style of bike for what you enjoy.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

Let’s pose a question then. 

Say you and a friend are out in public and discussing your last mountain bike ride. 

A passer by over hears the conversation and interrupts you both. 

“Hey, I’ve been thinking about getting into mountain biking, and I want to ride what the majority of people ride. What is the cheapest bike I should get?” He ask both of you. 


What’s your answer? What is the cheapest bike you would recommend to someone who wants to get into the sport and ride what the median rider rides? 


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

ballisticexchris said:


> I don't remember that with the raised chain stay bikes. They were hardtail beasts on steep technical climbs. The same hills today I struggle to keep the front end planted, were no issue with the "dedicated climbing geometry" of 30+ years ago.
> 
> The drawback was that downhills, fast trail riding, and pretty much everything else kind of sucked in the handling department. Manufacturers are now producing bikes that are pretty good everywhere and not focused at just hillclimbs. Heck even in the motorcycle world a dedicated hill climb machine is horrible at anything other than one single gear pinned going up. Setting up swing arm length is key for getting traction and keeping the front wheel down.
> 
> ...


What high pivot are you taking about?

Vpp and dw had 100% anti squat back in the day and where some of the better climbing bikes.

My ripmo climbs great and descents even better. It's probably the best all around trail bike ever made. With a dentist build and titanium bolts its 28.5lb. And that's with 2.5 dhf tires and pedals.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> Let’s pose a question then.
> 
> Say you and a friend are out in public and discussing your last mountain bike ride.
> 
> ...


First question, always: "How much are you looking/able to spend."


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> First question, always: "How much are you looking/able to spend."


Cheapest you would recommend. Basically your cheapest entry point that would allow a rider to ride the median trail. 


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

alexbn921 said:


> What high pivot are you taking about?
> 
> Vpp and dw had 100% anti squat back in the day and where some of the better climbing bikes.
> 
> My ripmo climbs great and descents even better. It's probably the best all around trail bike ever made. With a dentist build and titanium bolts its 28.5lb. And that's with 2.5 dhf tires and pedals.


Early 90's? I'm thinking he's talking HT.

I had a DW, it did climb well, but felt kind of 'dead' in general. Never really dug it all that much.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> First question, always: "How much are you looking/able to spend."


This, and also from there it'll vary based on where/what I'm riding at the time. Gonna be a different answer further up the mountain than in the basin.


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

ttengineer said:


> Let’s pose a question then.
> 
> Say you and a friend are out in public and discussing your last mountain bike ride.
> 
> ...


I just recommend a friend that wanted to upgrade his old hard tail to ride it without spending money on it. Make sure he really wanted to an loved to ride. Then get an old 5010 or mojo 3. He just picked 1 up for 1500. Having the time of his life on it


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> Cheapest you would recommend. Basically your cheapest entry point that would allow a rider to ride the median trail.


All depends on the answer to the first question.

If they say they can only afford $200, my answer is completely different than if they say can afford and are willing to spend $700 or $2000.


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

Dkayak said:


> Around here *used* hard tails are a common entry point. Ride it for a season and sell it for nearly what you paid.


It's the logical starting point, but in my circle, the friends that stuck with the sport, went straight to decent $3k full suspension bikes. I guess if you're dropping that much on first bike, you're committed.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

dysfunction said:


> This, and also from there it'll vary based on where/what I'm riding at the time. Gonna be a different answer further up the mountain than in the basin.


I personally don’t really consider “basin” rides mountain biking though. 

Think local trail head where everyone in your area likes to ride. What’s the cheapest bike one could ride there that you would recommend to someone? 


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

ttengineer said:


> “Hey, I’ve been thinking about getting into mountain biking, and I want to ride what the majority of people ride. What is the cheapest bike I should get?” He ask both of you.


If someone is talking about the "cheapest bike", there is a strong chance they won't be biking in 6 months regardless of what you recommend. 

Aside from that, what bike I'd recommend depends largely on how much the person wants to spend getting into the sport.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> I personally don’t really consider “basin” rides mountain biking though.
> 
> Think local trail head where everyone in your area likes to ride. What’s the cheapest bike one could ride there that you would recommend to someone?


What the hell is a 'basin' ride?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

ttengineer said:


> I personally don’t really consider “basin” rides mountain biking though.
> 
> Think local trail head where everyone in your area likes to ride. What’s the cheapest bike one could ride there that you would recommend to someone?


That's snobbish. We have low-altitude desert trails, like 50 year trail, that are certainly mountain bike trails. Just a different thing than if someone wants to do the full lemmon drop.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> All depends on the answer to the first question.
> 
> If they say they can only afford $200, my answer is completely different than if they say can afford and are willing to spend $700 or $2000.


I feel like your side stepping the question because you know where I’m going with this. 

I’m not trying to trap anyone. I’m just pointing out that we all would probably recommend a decently expensive bike to the uninitiated. 


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> What the hell is a 'basin' ride?


I see it as dirt road double track. 

Not single track. 


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> What the hell is a 'basin' ride?


For me, something at about 3000' in the desert (hence basin, I mean Tucson is literally a basin surrounded on all four sides by mountains) rather than starting at 9000'+


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

Definitely needs an Sworks Enduro for that


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

dysfunction said:


> For me, something at about 3000' in the desert (hence basin, I mean Tucson is literally a basin surrounded on all four sides by m rather than starting at 9000'+


Not trying to be snobby. I took that as double track dirt road/fire road riding. 

“Off road” if you will. But not mountain biking. 


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

ttengineer said:


> I feel like your side stepping the question because you know where I’m going with this.
> 
> I’m not trying to trap anyone. I’m just pointing out that we all would probably recommend a decently expensive bike to the uninitiated.


Your question is nonsense at the surface regardless of whether its a "trap" or not.

I have a buddy who works for $18/ hour at the local panelling company. I'm not going to recommend the same bike to him as I would my friend who is the CTO of the local hospital. This is regardless of whether it's their first ride or their 100th.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

tengineer,


ttengineer said:


> I feel like your side stepping the question because you know where I’m going with this.
> 
> I’m not trying to trap anyone. I’m just pointing out that we all would probably recommend a decently expensive bike to the uninitiated.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to side step your question but I do think what I'd recommend in the midwest would be different than in, say Bellingham, or Colorado.

But I think I know where you are going with this and my sense is yes, a mid-tier bike is more expensive relative to income in 2022 than in 2002. I can't confirm it since I wasn't mountain biking in 2002 so I have no reference point. But it sure seems that way.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

ttengineer said:


> Not trying to be snobby. I took that as double track dirt road/fire road riding.
> 
> “Off road” if you will. But not mountain biking.
> 
> ...


I guess this isn't mountain biking then.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

My reply to anyone asking about buying a bike would be to ask what they can afford, then go from there.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> I feel like your side stepping the question because you know where I’m going with this.
> 
> I’m not trying to trap anyone. I’m just pointing out that we all would probably recommend a decently expensive bike to the uninitiated.


I'm not sidestepping ****.
You asked a question and I'm giving you my answer. 

How in the world can anyone make any sort of assumption about what a stranger can or can't afford? It's the very first question. 
Second question is "What do you see yourself doing with this bike?", which leads into a bit more detail.

You are trying to treat this like it's a one-size-fits-all thing. 
It's not. Budget is determined by budget. Not all that complicated really.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> Not trying to be snobby. I took that as double track dirt road/fire road riding.
> 
> “Off road” if you will. But not mountain biking.


"Gravel"?


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## NC_Foothills_Rider (11 mo ago)

ttengineer said:


> Let’s pose a question then.
> 
> Say you and a friend are out in public and discussing your last mountain bike ride.
> 
> ...


A used hardtail -- simpler construction, less that can go wrong, less likely to have hidden issues like worn out shock(BTDT) or worn out bushings (BTDT). if that person is mechanically inclined then they may enjoy the challenge of rebuilding/maintaining a used FS bike like I did, buying a well-used FS with lots of trick parts hanging off it but that was totally clapped out (unbeknownst to me the hardtail guy). I eventually replaced everything on it and ended up with very nicely performing 26" FS.

But for most people simple and reliable trumps ultimate performance, especially for a beginner mtb rider.

If that person gets on that old Cannodale/Specialized/Trek/GT and finds that they enjoy the challenge and are pushing their bike to the limit, then investing a few grand is a good decision.

But telling a begginner (regardless of their financial status) to drop big money for their first bike is something I wouldn't do. What if they try it once and hate pedaling up hills or hate getting buzzed by horseflies in the woods and don't ride it again?

They wouldn't be asking me for any more recommendations that's for sure.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> For me, something at about 3000' in the desert (hence basin, I mean Tucson is literally a basin surrounded on all four sides by mountains) rather than starting at 9000'+


Means nothing to me. I haven't been in Tucson since I was like 5.
Can you explain it in terms that mean something to the rest of the world?

Is the 'basin' a bunch of paved MUPs?


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

Maximum capability but minimum cost. 

Think your local trail head. 

What’s the cheapest you would go spend your money on to ride the trails you usually ride. 

Honestly, I would be hard pressed to recommend anything under the cheapest Ripmo/Ripley AF builds. 

However, I would be comfortable recommending one of the mid tier Polygons. Probably the cheapest one with a dropper post. 

I personally would not recommend used bikes either to the uninitiated. Too many variables and things to look over. Buying new is a safer bet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> I guess this isn't mountain biking then.



Looks fun - reminds me of a lot of places around here, except you guys need some frigging trees!


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Means nothing to me. I haven't been in Tucson since I was like 5.
> Can you explain it in terms that mean something to the rest of the world?
> 
> Is the 'basin' a bunch of paved MUPs?


Just not at altitude. We have a fucking **** ton of miles of trails. Ranging from green desert XC trails to double black downhills. Some of those blacks, are in the basin. Basin is a geographic term.

"A basin is *a depression, or dip, in the Earth's surface*. Basins are shaped like bowls, with sides higher than the bottom. They can be oval or circular in shape, similar to a sink or tub you might have in your own bathroom. Some are filled with water"


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Looks fun - reminds me of a lot of places around here, except you guys need some frigging trees!


The exposure kind of sucks.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> Maximum capability but minimum cost.
> 
> Think your local trail head.
> 
> ...


So we're changing it completely now to my money. Which means nothing to someone else. 

It's a pointless exercise. I can go ride most of the "XC" trails in this region perfectly well and have fun on the HT I grabbed for $175 at a used bike sale. Or I can piece together something in my garage for next to nothing. But I have spent many thousands on fancy bikes that are also fun.  I"ve built bikes for friends for dirt cheap (or even free) and I've built bikes for friends that were very expensive. 

It depends on their budget. That is the answer.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> Just not at altitude. We have a fucking **** ton of miles of trails. Ranging from green desert XC trails to double black downhills. Some of those blacks, are in the basin. Basin is a geographic term.
> 
> "A basin is *a depression, or dip, in the Earth's surface*. Basins are shaped like bowls, with sides higher than the bottom. They can be oval or circular in shape, similar to a sink or tub you might have in your own bathroom. Some are filled with water"


Thanks.

I know what it is in general, but in terms of what the MTB trails are like in one (or in your particular one), it meant nothing to me.
Or probably anyone else who doesn't ride there.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

ttengineer said:


> For instance, I ride a well equipped Ripmo, my usual riding partners ride about an equally equipped Mojo HD4 and a Santa Cruz Tallboy respectively. We have a 4th friend who skis with us that we are trying to convince to buy a bike and ride with us. I personally am pushing hard for him to get a Ripmo AF. Because the fact is, if he goes and buys a $1500 Marin or Polygon, he will not be able to keep up as the limitations of the bike will hit faster than those of our bikes.
> 
> Now on the other hand if a lone guy wants to start riding on his spare time alone, I’d have no problem recommending a $1500 bike, but I’d push them to buy the most expensive bike they are willing to purchase, to a point, as there are significant performances gains in suspension from a $1500 bike to say a $3100 bike like the Ripmo AF.


I think you are mistaking gear for skill. A similarily skilled rider is going to be able to keep up with you and your buddies on an entry level bike. They might be a bit off the back but not really that much.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I know what it is in general, but in terms of what the MTB trails are like in one (or in your particular one), it meant nothing to me.
> Or probably anyone else who doesn't ride there.


Fair, but you can see why I'd have different recommendations


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> Fair, but you can see why I'd have different recommendations


Yes. Because you know enough not to try to pigeonhole everything about the game.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

ttengineer said:


> Maximum capability but minimum cost.
> 
> Think your local trail head.
> 
> ...


Much of my riding on local trails is on hardtail bikes that cost me under $500, so I have no problem suggesting a used hardtail. There are a bunch of used hardtail 29ers on Pinkbike for $600 or less. I also see a lightly used 2011 Stumpjumper for $400 on our local craigslist. Anytime someone asks me what is the minimum they can spend to start riding our local trails, I usually tell them they can get started with a bike around $500 and I'm happy to go shop with them and help them with any needed repairs. I'm happy to loan them one of my bikes if they would prefer to try out mountain biking before buying something.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

ttengineer said:


> I personally don’t really consider “basin” rides mountain biking though.
> 
> Think local trail head where everyone in your area likes to ride. What’s the cheapest bike one could ride there that you would recommend to someone?
> 
> ...


Depends on what trails you chose to ride. You could have a great time rolling around the green trails on the most basic of bikes, if your jam is the steep double blacks then norco makes some $1200USD slack angle hardtails that would work.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

LMN said:


> I think you are mistaking gear for skill. A similarily skilled rider is going to be able to keep up with you and your buddies on an entry level bike. They might be a bit off the back but not really that much.


No. I’m definitely not. 

Riders being equal, a Ripmo would gain significant ground on a $1500 Marin entry level FS bike. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

tdc_worm said:


> wages are not a reflection of effort.


One of my favorite movie quotes comes from National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. Audrey: *He worked really hard, grandma.* *Grandpa Art: So do washing machines*


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

ttengineer said:


> No. I’m definitely not.
> 
> Riders being equal, a Ripmo would gain significant ground on a $1500 Marin entry level FS bike.
> 
> ...


There are very few who have done as much formal controlled bike testing as I have. I am constantly amazed at how small of a difference "bikes" make in trail speed.

This summer I had a fork failure while travelling and I ended up riding a pretty darn basic hardtail. Was I slower, absolutely, but I could still ride with the same people, the ride was just a bit harder.


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## Sanchofula (Dec 30, 2007)

Well, maybe ask what the goal is, then see what they can afford.

I'm not sure why this thread is still going, who honestly cares what other people can afford, it's not like a mountain bike is anything but a luxury .... now if we were talking about basic needs like food,. shelter, health care, then yeah.

Does ever member have to chime in about what their first bike cost?

It's gonna be a loooong thread.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Sanchofula said:


> It's gonna be a loooong thread.


Right? It could go on _forever_!


----------



## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

Sanchofula said:


> Well, maybe ask what the goal is, then see what they can afford.
> 
> I'm not sure why this thread is still going, who honestly cares what other people can afford, it's not like a mountain bike is anything but a luxury .... now if we were talking about basic needs like food,. shelter, health care, then yeah.
> 
> ...


Agreed, and talking about your income, or how much your car cost, boat(s) cost, bike cost is tacky.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

sacrefrancais said:


> Right? It could go on _forever_!


and ever!


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Got a burrito from a place I haven't to been to in a while. The carne asada burrito went from 6.99 with a small horchata to 13.40 with no horchata. I just got priced out. Going back to my go to my normal place.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

RS VR6 said:


> Got a burrito from a place I haven't to been to in a while. The carne asada burrito went from 6.99 with a small horchata to 13.40 with no horchata. I just got priced out. Going back to my go to my normal place.


I paid (not to my knowledge until too late) 8.50 for a Kombucha yesterday!


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

RS VR6 said:


> Got a burrito from a place I haven't to been to in a while. The carne asada burrito went from 6.99 with a small horchata to 13.40 with no horchata. I just got priced out. Going back to my go to my normal place.


Horchata is a luxury item!

California burrito's are $10 these days, I remember when they were $3.50 and included a bottle of coke. Just means I'm old.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

dysfunction said:


> Horchata is a luxury item!
> 
> California burrito's are $10 these days, I remember when they were $3.50 and included a bottle of coke. Just means I'm old.


I remember when burritos were $2 and included a line of coke.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

RS VR6 said:


> Got a burrito from a place I haven't to been to in a while. The carne asada burrito went from 6.99 with a small horchata to 13.40 with no horchata. I just got priced out. Going back to my go to my normal place.


That’s an entry level burrito. You really need a $27 burrito for it to really be worthwhile


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Sir kayakalot said:


> That’s an entry level burrito. You really need a $27 burrito for it to really be worthwhile


I got pretty close to that at a place in Santa Monica. I think it was around $21 plus tip. It was post ride and I was hangry.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Ogre said:


> I remember when burritos were $2 and included a line of coke.


Old bastard!


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

LMN said:


> There are very few who have done as much formal controlled bike testing as I have. I am constantly amazed at how small of a difference "bikes" make in trail speed.
> 
> This summer I had a fork failure while travelling and I ended up riding a pretty darn basic hardtail. Was I slower, absolutely, but I could still ride with the same people, the ride was just a bit harder.


This has been my experience too. We sold our Blurs last December, when we ordered new Top Fuels. The TF’s were delayed so we rode fully rigid Farley fat bikes until July. We could hang with the same groups, but probably had to work a bit more. Lots of new PR’s though and some of them still stand even after 5 months on the TF’s. We’re talking about mostly Blue trails. Maybe it’s different on really tough terrain, but that’s not relevant to the beginner issue here.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

How much of the explosion in "gravel riding" been in response to the arms race taking place in mountain biking?

It's just so common, and annoying, the arms race thing. I got into 4-wheeling for a while, and it didn't take long for the guys I was wheeling with the start upgrading, etc. and I just wasn't interested in dumping that kind of money to "keep up"....not to mention that I found it slow and boring. When I suggested that we all buy $1500 ****-piles, and keep them stock, they looked at me like I was crazy.

Is it possible "gravel bikes" are the $1500 ****-pile 4x4 equivalent of the bicycle world? Cheap and attainable, and it's really rider ability that separates the boys from the men? yes, I know there are expensive gravel bikes too, but far less likely to make the difference in being able to hang on a group ride.

.


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

A interesting conversation about the subject that does not devolve into into the usual MTBR quagmire:









Is anyone completely done with these absurd prices? - Weight Weenies







weightweenies.starbike.com


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

_CJ said:


> How much of the explosion in "gravel riding" been in response to the arms race taking place in mountain biking?
> 
> It's just so common, and annoying, the arms race thing. I got into 4-wheeling for a while, and it didn't take long for the guys I was wheeling with the start upgrading, etc. and I just wasn't interested in dumping that kind of money to "keep up"....not to mention that I found it slow and boring. When I suggested that we all buy $1500 ****-piles, and keep them stock, they looked at me like I was crazy.
> 
> ...


Hell the side by side guys are even worse with their arms race. 

Can Am has some hopped up race version now that’s like $50 or $60 grand. It’s mind blowing. People are taking 5 and 6 year loans out on these things. 

I’m sure ebikes will soon be regularly financed at the price they are going for. 


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

ttengineer said:


> Hell the side by side guys are even worse with their arms race.
> 
> Can Am has some hopped up race version now that’s like $50 or $60 grand. It’s mind blowing. People are taking 5 and 6 year loans out on these things.
> 
> ...


Many brick n mortar as well as websites are offering financing to sucker people into getting behind the 8ball.
Sadly, people are stupid enough to fall for it.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

Sir kayakalot said:


> That’s an entry level burrito. You really need a $27 burrito for it to really be worthwhile


I got the $5 big box at Taco Bell because I'm virtuous and thrifty, but I _could_ have bought the $20+ burrito.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> A interesting conversation about the subject that does not devolve into into the usual MTBR quagmire:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This quote from that post sums it up pretty well for me:
_"As I see it, my hobby is cycling first, then bicycles, and that distinction is key."_


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

RS VR6 said:


> Got a burrito from a place I haven't to been to in a while. The carne asada burrito went from 6.99 with a small horchata to 13.40 with no horchata.





dysfunction said:


> Horchata is a luxury item!
> 
> California burrito's are $10 these days, I remember when they were $3.50 and included a bottle of coke.


I wouldn't know as I refuse to put that kind of processed poison in my body. My wife can get fresh ingredients and make a virtually sodium free burrito for 1/4 the cost of that nasty crap. 

I also get food made in a clean and sanitary environment. Unlike some rat rat infested restaurant with cockroaches crawling on my food and some cook who did not wash his hands after wiping his butt making my food.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Sodium free? Bleh.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

dysfunction said:


> Sodium free? Bleh.


You learn to adapt to low sodium choices and eating clean. My wife makes good use of spices making salt almost a thing of the past. Reality is almost everything has sodium of some sort.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

ballisticexchris said:


> You learn to adapt to low sodium choices and eating clean. My wife makes good use of spices making salt almost a thing of the past. Reality is almost everything has sodium of some sort.


Salt is important.


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## ballisticexchris (Jun 14, 2016)

dysfunction said:


> Salt is important.


Then eat a pickle. I have not used table salt in over 12 years.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

ballisticexchris said:


> Then eat a pickle. I have not used table salt in over 12 years.



What's the difference?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

ballisticexchris said:


> Then eat a pickle. I have not used table salt in over 12 years.


Aren't we virtuous 

Da **** you think the pickling salt is?


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## GoldenKnightMTB (11 mo ago)

I dont think anyone is priced out of the mountain bike market considering you can buy a GT or cheaper used Trek starter bike for a couple hundred. You could step into a used FS bike after that, and gradually work your way up.
I'm sure there are people out there riding less expensive bikes very skillfully. To get into a more expensive bike you can finance it through the manufacturer. I may do that next time.


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## Sir kayakalot (Jul 23, 2017)

GoldenKnightMTB said:


> I dont think anyone is priced out of the mountain bike market considering you can buy a GT or cheaper used Trek starter bike for a couple hundred. You could step into a used FS bike after that, and gradually work your way up.
> I'm sure there are people out there riding less expensive bikes very skillfully. To get into a more expensive bike you can finance it through the manufacturer. I may do that next time.


You’re getting off topic. The topic is salt


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## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

Sir kayakalot said:


> You’re getting off topic. The topic is salt


but you're missing the real issue! ... snort or lick!

perhaps we could liquefy it and inject


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

theMISSIONARY said:


> perhaps we could liquefy it and inject


Don't recommend. Makes ya cold


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

GoldenKnightMTB said:


> I dont think anyone is priced out of the mountain bike market considering you can buy a GT or cheaper used Trek starter bike for a couple hundred. You could step into a used FS bike after that, and gradually work your way up.
> I'm sure there are people out there riding less expensive bikes very skillfully. To get into a more expensive bike you can finance it through the manufacturer. I may do that next time.


The used market is relatively new to the industry though. 

Mostly because modern bikes are that good and built to last for the most part minus a few ware items. 

A well taken care of and maintained, even ridden hard, modern mountain bike should last a decade. 

Bikes of yesterday, 15-20 years ago, did not have that type of durability in my opinion. Specifically FS bikes. Hard tails are a different animal. 

So, bikes today are more expensive when compared to their past counterparts, but they are built better and last longer. 

So value for your dollar? Yea I think you get more value out of todays bikes. But the entry point has definitely increased. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

The used bike market is the place to be if you know what you're looking at. Especially if you can go look at it. I found a twice ridden bike with top shelf components for less than the cost of the frame. Dude had bought the wrong size.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

Nothing wrong with buying used. Hell I’ve even bought off eBay twice and was not disappointed. You can expect to pay 50 cents on the dollar for a 2 to 3 year old bike and as mentioned, often barely ridden. 


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

He was a dick and a doper but had this correct.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Dkayak said:


> He was a dick and a doper but had this correct.



And yet he never rode anything but top of the line bikes.


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

J.B. Weld said:


> And yet he never rode anything but top of the line bikes.


At that level it would be crazy to ride anything less than the very best. Nobody reading this is in that league. If we ride a top of the line bike, it’s for reasons other than winning high stakes races.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

trmn8er said:


> Nothing wrong with buying used. Hell I’ve even bought off eBay twice and was not disappointed. You can expect to pay 50 cents on the dollar for a 2 to 3 year old bike and as mentioned, often barely ridden.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The bike I bought was well below my budget. The seller also knocked the price down because he didn't have break the bike down, pack it and drive it to ship. The bike wasn't a year old when I bought. Definitely a super score.


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## qwik177 (7 mo ago)

On a 93/94 Trek 9800. 2000 new. Best bike that I've ridden in a while.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

Lance is wrong. It's totally about the bike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Dkayak said:


> At that level it would be crazy to ride anything less than the very best.



So then it is about the bike?


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

ttengineer said:


> I’m sure ebikes will soon be regularly financed at the price they are going for.


I financed mine, though I didn’t pay any interest, just spread the payments over 6 months. 

They also offered 12 month and I think 2 year plans. I only did the financing because it was free, but they start charging interest for the longer loans.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> So then it is about the bike?


Yes
If it wasn't for bikes, what else would we be inanely babbling about?


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> The used market is relatively new to the industry though.


Ummm...no.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Ummm...no.


In the sense that I can go online and buy a used bike anywhere in the world … yea that’s relatively new. 

15 years ago, you might have found something on a local ad on Craigslist or through word of mouth. Even EBay bikes weren’t so much a thing back then. Hell most bike shops didn’t even deal in used bikes. I know, to this day, of only 1 in Atlanta that will have a few used bikes on a rack. The others don’t waste their time. 

You were locked in to what was available in your local area. 

Now, with Pinkbike, forums, FBM, and the like, the options are endless. 

I’m sure in certain areas like CO and CA the used market was greater, but in areas where MTB is not common place it was extremely rare. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

J.B. Weld said:


> So then it is about the bike?


Extracting every last second to win big bucks is about the combination of genetic cardio capacity, build, conditioning, team, nutrition, hydration, bike handling skills, and of course also about having a bike as good as the teams with which you compete. The UCI tries to regulate the bike to keep it out of the competitive equation in any significant way. That’s also why they regulate what drugs can be in the riders’ system. It’s not about the bike or the drugs.

Great recreational riders on a halo bike will always get their butts kicked by pros on Huffy’s. That’s not because Huffy’s are great bikes. Beginners on mid-range FS can’t hang with experienced riders on used hard tails for quite a while either. I’m 67 and returned to MTB 4 years ago after maybe 5 year’s of MTB in the ‘90’s and decades on the road. I doubt the average fit new rider twenty years younger on a halo bike could hang with me on my fatty for his first season. It takes a lot of time and miles to acquire enough skills and conditioning to make use of what a great bike offers. The benefits are marginal for that first year.

Now to clarify, I’m not an athlete or competitor. I’m just an old guy who likes to ride bikes of all sorts. I’m also an engineer who appreciates fine machines at a stage of life where I can afford them. But I don't see any reason a beginner can’t learn and have a blast on a cheap bike. It’s not about the bike. It’s about tearing it up in the woods, riding like you did as a kid. Later on you can appreciate and hopefully afford a new high-tech bike, but it’s not a barrier to entry.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

The used market has been no bargain since COVID started, (I have experienced this both as a buyer and a seller) though that may be starting to change as supplies catch up and new bikes are becoming more available.

Personally, if we’re talking about someone just getting into the sport, I would caution them strongly if they are considering buying a used mtb, unless they have someone to help them out that really knows what to look for, both in terms of the details of the build, as well as mechanical red flags.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Dkayak said:


> Extracting every last second to win big bucks is about the combination of genetic cardio capacity, build, conditioning, team, nutrition, hydration, bike handling skills, and of course also about having a bike as good as the teams with which you compete. The UCI tries to regulate the bike to keep it out of the competitive equation in any significant way. That’s also why they regulate what drugs can be in the riders’ system. It’s not about the bike or the drugs.
> 
> Great recreational riders on a halo bike will always get their butts kicked by pros on Huffy’s. That’s not because Huffy’s are great bikes. Beginners on mid-range FS can’t hang with experienced riders on used hard tails for quite a while either. I’m 67 and returned to MTB 4 years ago after maybe 5 year’s of MTB in the ‘90’s and decades on the road. I doubt the average fit new rider twenty years younger on a halo bike could hang with me on my fatty for his first season. It takes a lot of time and miles to acquire enough skills and conditioning to make use of what a great bike offers. The benefits are marginal for that first year.
> 
> Now to clarify, I’m not an athlete or competitor. I’m just an old guy who likes to ride bikes of all sorts. I’m also an engineer who appreciates fine machines at a stage of life where I can afford them. But I don't see any reason a beginner can’t learn and have a blast on a cheap bike. It’s not about the bike. It’s about tearing it up in the woods, riding like you did as a kid. Later on you can appreciate and hopefully afford a new high-tech bike, but it’s not a barrier to entry.




Levity is dead.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

kapusta said:


> The used market has been no bargain since COVID started, (I have experienced this both as a buyer and a seller) though that may be starting to change as supplies catch up and new bikes are becoming more available.
> 
> Personally, if we’re talking about someone just getting into the sport, I would caution them strongly if they are considering buying a used mtb, unless they have someone to help them out that really knows what to look for, both in terms of the details of the build, as well as mechanical red flags.


100%


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## Dkayak (12 mo ago)

J.B. Weld said:


> Levity is dead.


Sometimes with just the written word.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

kapusta said:


> The used market has been no bargain since COVID started, (I have experienced this both as a buyer and a seller) though that may be starting to change as supplies catch up and new bikes are becoming more available.
> 
> Personally, if we’re talking about someone just getting into the sport, I would caution them strongly if they are considering buying a used mtb, unless they have someone to help them out that really knows what to look for, both in terms of the details of the build, as well as mechanical red flags.


I was actually looking used before I bought new. Just couldn’t justify some of the prices being asked on the online sites.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Dkayak said:


> Later on you can appreciate and hopefully afford a new high-tech bike...





GoldenKnightMTB said:


> You could step into a used FS bike after that, and gradually work your way up.


I think it is a common misconception that everyone wants a top end bike. For many of us who can afford whatever bike we want, the bike is not as important as the ride. 
I've known many mountain biking friends over the years who would rather work extensive hours and pay finance charges to have an expensive bike sitting in their garage while I'm out riding my inexpensive bikes.
Not everyone has the same priorities, and that is OK.


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## numbnuts (Apr 20, 2006)

sgltrak said:


> I think it is a common misconception that everyone wants a top end bike. For many of us who can afford whatever bike we want, the bike is not as important as the ride.
> I've known many mountain biking friends over the years who would rather work extensive hours and pay finance charges to have an expensive bike sitting in their garage while I'm out riding my inexpensive bikes.
> Not everyone has the same priorities, and that is OK.


Everyone that is passionate about ridding wants a high end bike.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> In the sense that I can go online and buy a used bike anywhere in the world … yea that’s relatively new.


15 years ago was 2007. 
You really couldn't figure out how to buy or sell a used bike in 2007? 
Damn...




kapusta said:


> Personally, if we’re talking about someone just getting into the sport, I would caution them strongly if they are considering buying a used mtb, unless they have someone to help them out that really knows what to look for, both in terms of the details of the build, as well as mechanical red flags.


Question #3 in the bike-picking interview with the imaginary random stranger out of nowhere: Do you have any friends who ride?


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

ttengineer said:


> Hell the side by side guys are even worse with their arms race.
> 
> Can Am has some hopped up race version now that’s like $50 or $60 grand. It’s mind blowing. People are taking 5 and 6 year loans out on these things.
> 
> ...


You would think eMTB's would be more expensive on average, but I see way more people dropping $10k+ on analog bikes. I think the average eMTB buyer is older, and therefore a little more careful with their money, not interested in racing or trying to compete with other riders, and maybe with the motor leveling the playing field to some extent, they don't need to pay up to keep up as much.


.


----------



## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

ttengineer said:


> In the sense that I can go online and buy a used bike anywhere in the world … yea that’s relatively new.


I bought my first MTB from rec.bicycles.marketplace ... I think it was in 1998.

This is the listing I bought it from: FS XL 22" Fuji MTB


Buying stuff used via the mail was a different experience prior to digital photography!


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

phantoj said:


> I bought my first MTB from rec.bicycles.marketplace ... I think it was in 1998.
> 
> This is the listing I bought it from: FS XL 22" Fuji MTB
> 
> ...


You get a “Like” just because you dug up or kept the link to the listing.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

I don’t know when this topic drifted from “People are getting priced out of the sport” into “I need a top end bike to shave 3 seconds off my KOM”. But it shows exactly how disconnected the whiners here are from reality. I guess you have to keep grasping at increasingly ridiculous new goals because the original topic is bankrupt.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ogre said:


> I don’t know when this topic drifted from “People are getting priced out of the sport” into “I need a top end bike to shave 3 seconds off my KOM”. But it shows exactly how disconnected the whiners here are from reality. I guess you have to keep grasping at increasingly ridiculous new goals because the original topic is bankrupt.


Don't forget that everything apparently depends upon what someone supposedly could or couldn't do or buy 20-30 years ago.
Because that's totally relevant now.


----------



## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

.
pointless post deleted


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

New? Ok, I guess over a quarter century is new? Used bikes were selling on listserv before most people had web browsers.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> New? Ok, I guess over a quarter century is new? Used bikes were selling on listserv before most people had web browsers.


But I couldn't easily search New Zealand listings for deals on XTR gruppos,
Hence, useless.


----------



## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

Ogre said:


> You get a “Like” just because you dug up or kept the link to the listing.


The "Onza" clipless pedals in the listing turned out to be Looks. But as bad as the Look pedals were, I'm not sure the Onzas would have been better.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Ogre said:


> I don’t know when this topic drifted from “People are getting priced out of the sport” into “I need a top end bike to shave 3 seconds off my KOM”.


Shed that BMI and you'll get 5 seconds off the KOM...


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Crankout said:


> Shed that BMI and you'll get 5 seconds off the KOM...


I've just had my second cup of coffee... so should be ready to boost that KOM in a few minutes!


----------



## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

phantoj said:


> The "Onza" clipless pedals in the listing turned out to be Looks. But as bad as the Look pedals were, I'm not sure the Onzas would have been better.


They weren't.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sgltrak said:


> They weren't.


Got a few sets still around somewhere, even a bag of fresh elastomers if anyone needs 'em.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Onza's were hands down my favorite pedals ever!


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

MattiThundrrr said:


> .
> pointless post deleted


This goes against the very spirit of the Internet.


----------



## wolfmw (Dec 18, 2020)

Sir kayakalot said:


> That’s an entry level burrito. You really need a $27 burrito for it to really be worthwhile


uh, maybe if you're ok with just average. You really need to tune that $27 burrito with a custom chip stack and upgraded guacamole to get the most out of it. You don't even know what you're missing.


----------



## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Ogre said:


> This goes against the very spirit of the Internet.


K how about this. Man stands next to flaming dumpster, observing. Decides to jump in. Then realizes it is a stupid idea and jumps back out before catching fire.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

In my experience, the best burritos are made in the part of town where nobody speaks English and people can’t afford $15 burritos.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

MattiThundrrr said:


> K how about this. Man stands next to flaming dumpster, observing. Decides to jump in. Then realizes it is a stupid idea and jumps back out before catching fire.


In the early days of the web, I learned to don a fire proof suit before jumping into the flaming dumpsters.

You still end up waste deep in burning trash, but you don’t get burned.


----------



## sprinklesmtb (10 mo ago)

My new ride is relatively inexpensive 1,600 usd. Mind you bought on a sale but whatever. Steel hardtail, modern geo, dropper, rockshox pike select, full sram gx, guide r brakes. That is a lot more than you would have gotten 15-20 years ago for the price.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Ogre said:


> In my experience, the best burritos are made in the part of town where nobody speaks English and people can’t afford $15 burritos.


So are the best riders.


----------



## sprinklesmtb (10 mo ago)

Super E said:


> In 2002 I bought a top end Mtb for $1400 (on sale - which you never see anymore), my wages (from hard work mind you) have increased 2.6x since then, a similar bike today is going for $8-10k which is 5.7x an increase (more than double compared to my income). There’s no way I can afford that kind of pricing today. I’m unsure who can afford those bikes.


1,400 now would be around 2,300 and I am sure you could buy a much better bike for 2,300 now than whatever top end bike from 2002.


----------



## NeedleBanger (8 mo ago)

$5000 for a new 40lbs tank with junk components, $10,000 for something lightweight with good components...
Yeah these prices are completely retarded nowadays, pinkbike.com till I die.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

sprinklesmtb said:


> 1,400 now would be around 2,300 and I am sure you could buy a much better bike for 2,300 now than whatever top end bike from 2002.


I'm not buying his claim that he bought a 'top end' bike for $1400 in '02.
Not even close.
A dorky S-works Epic was almost $4k in '02 and you could basically crack it by looking at it the wrong way.

Same with 'you never see sales anymore'.
I guy right in this thread was just pointing out that the $1500 bike I posted a pic of was ~25% off.
I bought a bike on sale a few weeks ago myself FFS.

It's seriously like some people just make **** up so they can whine about it.


----------



## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

numbnuts said:


> Everyone that is passionate about ridding wants a high end bike.



said no Surly rider ever


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

I seem to like my bikes like my audio.

Solidly Mid-fi.


----------



## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

theMISSIONARY said:


> said no Surly rider ever


I ride a Surly.


----------



## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

_CJ said:


> I ride a Surly.


A high-end one


----------



## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

theMISSIONARY said:


> A high-end one


A high barred one, if you consider only the gap between the stem and headtube. Maybe that is why my bikes are so heavy. I should get carbon spacers for the 100mm or so I run across the two bikes.


----------



## friz (Dec 2, 2012)

Dkayak said:


> He was a dick and a doper but had this correct.
> View attachment 2004152


Yup, it's all about the femoral tap.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk


----------



## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> In the sense that I can go online and buy a used bike anywhere in the world … yea that’s relatively new.
> 
> 15 years ago, you might have found something on a local ad on Craigslist or through word of mouth. Even EBay bikes weren’t so much a thing back then. Hell most bike shops didn’t even deal in used bikes. I know, to this day, of only 1 in Atlanta that will have a few used bikes on a rack. The others don’t waste their time.
> 
> ...


I bought several bikes off of ebay 15 years or longer ago. Atlanta Cycling used to sell stuff on ebay, I got a fantastic deal on a tri bike from them. The others were mountain bikes or frames.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

ttengineer said:


> In the sense that I can go online and buy a used bike anywhere in the world … yea that’s relatively new.
> 
> 15 years ago, you might have found something on a local ad on Craigslist or through word of mouth. Even EBay bikes weren’t so much a thing back then. Hell most bike shops didn’t even deal in used bikes. I know, to this day, of only 1 in Atlanta that will have a few used bikes on a rack. The others don’t waste their time.
> 
> ...


Friends of mine and I were buying and selling bikes/frames off sites like MTBR, Pinkbike, and ebay well before 2007. By 2007 all that was in full swing. I sold my SC Superlight frame on eBay in 2003. My buddy bought a used Intense M1 frame off eBay or Pinkbike (I forget which) that same year. I bought a used Intense Tracer frame in 2006 off of MTBR.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

slapheadmofo said:


> Got a few sets still around somewhere, even a bag of fresh elastomers if anyone needs 'em.


You can take those Onza pedals and shove them up...I still remember picking thorns out of my ass on Horse Canyon because the Onzas wouldn't release.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Jayem said:


> You can take those Onza pedals and shove them up...I still remember picking thorns out of my ass on Horse Canyon because the Onzas wouldn't release.


Running the black elastomers, obviously.


----------



## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

kapusta said:


> Friends of mine and I were buying and selling bikes/frames off sites like MTBR, Pinkbike, and ebay well before 2007. By 2007 all that was in full swing. I sold my SC Superlight frame on eBay in 2003. My buddy bought a used Intense M1 frame off eBay or Pinkbike (I forget which) that same year. I bought a used Intense Tracer frame in 2006 off of MTBR.


Fair enough. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

dysfunction said:


> I seem to like my bikes like my audio.
> 
> Solidly Mid-fi.


It is where the best value is.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

dysfunction said:


> I seem to like my bikes like my audio.
> 
> Solidly Mid-fi.


The thing about really high end audio is that once you get much beyond the midrange stuff that addresses most of the more obvious issues, it is usually the acoustics of the room and location of speakers/listener that need addressing far more than the audio gear itself.

Its like spending thousands of dollars on a high end custom tuned rear shock, but then bolting it to a crappy 1998 URT frame.


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

kapusta said:


> The thing about really high end audio is that once you get much beyond the midrange stuff that addresses most of the more obvious issues, it is usually the acoustics of the room and location of speakers/listener that need addressing far more than the audio gear itself.
> 
> Its like spending thousands of dollars on a high end custom tuned rear shock, but then bolting it to a crappy 1998 URT frame.


This truth becomes really obvious in home audio recording. It doesn't matter how expensive your mic is if the room sounds like crap.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

jeremy3220 said:


> This truth becomes really obvious in home audio recording. It doesn't matter how expensive your mic is if the room sounds like crap.


Yep. It records that crap perfectly.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

kapusta said:


> The thing about really high end audio is that once you get much beyond the midrange stuff that addresses most of the more obvious issues, it is usually the acoustics of the room and location of speakers/listener that need addressing far more than the audio gear itself.
> 
> Its like spending thousands of dollars on a high end custom tuned rear shock, but then bolting it to a crappy 1998 URT frame.


Yep, my room is pretty neutral. More time was spent on that, than on money was spent on equipment.


----------



## whipnet (Dec 30, 2021)

I read the first page and then skipped 600 post and we're on home audio. What did I miss?

*


----------



## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

whipnet said:


> I read the first page and then skipped 600 post and we're on home audio. What did I miss?
> 
> *


Nothing


----------



## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

whipnet said:


> I read the first page and then skipped 600 post and we're on home audio. What did I miss?
> 
> *


not much, l think EBikes are coming soon......

unless l missed that sh!tshow and we went to audio


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

cmg said:


> not much, l think EBikes are coming soon......
> 
> unless l missed that sh!tshow and we went to audio


Probably better if we just skipped that one, and gave it the attention it deserves anyway


----------



## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

dysfunction said:


> I seem to like my bikes like my audio.
> 
> Solidly Mid-fi.


One of my favorite record labels...








"It's pretty good"


----------



## Horseshoe (May 31, 2018)

MattiThundrrr said:


> One of my favorite record labels...
> View attachment 2004488
> 
> "It's pretty good"


Supersuckers! Still have a Mid-Fi sweatshirt I bought off their managers back while they played a boat cruise in the Milwaukee Harbor about a dozen years ago.


----------



## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

kapusta said:


> The thing about really high end audio is that once you get much beyond the midrange stuff that addresses most of the more obvious issues, it is usually the acoustics of the room and location of speakers/listener that need addressing far more than the audio gear itself.


But then I'd miss out on spending thousands on cables and power conditioning. /s


----------



## Stewiewin (Dec 17, 2020)

Tallboy723 said:


> I’ve read a lot of post about the increase in prices. I agree everything is so much more expensive. But when I started looking at new bikes and getting back into it, I have to disagree somewhat based on what your paying for and getting compared to bikes of the past. Mind you, I just recently bought a Tallboy V4 AL R kit. $4200. +$300 for taxes from my buddies LBS. Normally I’d buy online to forgo paying taxes.
> Anyway I went back to the archives of my 08 Turner 5 spot and know for a fact that my TB is way ahead of the Turner in ride and capabilities other than weight. Plus it’s a 29r and has a few extra features like the dropper, shorter stem, longer bars that the Spot didn’t have. But the Spot was top of the line back then. Here is the build out of the Spot. Except I have all sram XO instead of Shimano and I had carbon stem and bars with DT Swiss hubs and mavic rims. So not too far off from this build
> While the TB doesn’t have the most expensive component build it still has tried and true sram performance. Smooth crisp shifting and quiet. Wouldn’t expect anything less.
> So yes top of the line now would be 10k I get that. But for a bit over half the price of my 08 Turner Spot, I have a new Geo 22 TB.
> ...


Its daylight robbery


----------



## davidesloop (4 mo ago)

I saw the title, read the first page, skipped to the end, see we've gotten to audio equipment...
I don't think anyone is priced out of mountainbiking...
Many of my friends ride, and a couple of us are on 2007 model full suspension bikes, and still riding the same trails as those on new $5000 bikes...
Hell, I ride my 1984 Mongoose ATB often, and keep up with guys on brand new bikes.
This is on mostly mild singletrack. I get lots of kudos, and people tend to get a reality check, thinking of how much they spent to ride the same trails.
My full suspension bike is a 2008 Gary Fisher Procailber, and I have updated it with shorter stem, wider bars and wide range 1x9 drivetrain, and after accidently getting on a jumpline, I now have a dropper post... It's still an XC bike, so I don't get too crazy on the jump trails. But on most trails, I can ride right alongside someone on a newer, more expensive bike.

If you have to have the latest and greatest to "Keep up with the Jones" and buy the latest and greatest thing, then yes... It gets expensive...
You just want to get out on some trails? Find a bike shop quality bike, even if it's a little lower end, or a little older, and get out there and ride.


----------



## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

davidesloop said:


> I saw the title, read the first page, skipped to the end, see we've gotten to audio equipment...


Welcome to mtbr where the threads are made up and the topics don't matter.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

People dig smartass comments, and run with them. Nothing more.


----------



## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

whipnet said:


> I read the first page and then skipped 600 post and we're on home audio. What did I miss?
> 
> *


Burritos


----------



## BIGTIMEBALLER (Jul 7, 2020)

I think the PB prices are back down… maybe even below Covid prices… especially is you take into account the 20% inflation over the last two years.

Generally you should expect to list or buy a one year old bike at a minimum of 25-30% off. Same goes for components. Then subtract 10-15% each additional year of use/age.

Deals often fall through because of transaction fees and shipping cost. Neither party wants to chip away at their proceeds or deal. Especially on big ticket items.


----------



## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

kapusta said:


> The thing about really high end audio is that once you get much beyond the midrange stuff that addresses most of the more obvious issues, it is usually the acoustics of the room and location of speakers/listener that need addressing far more than the audio gear itself.
> 
> Its like spending thousands of dollars on a high end custom tuned rear shock, but then bolting it to a crappy 1998 URT frame.


I pretty much stopped spending money on audio as my room that I have to use is horrible and would require a lot of treatment to improve it, and even then, it would still be a PIA as it's literally in the middle of my house and disturbs everyone else in the house. 

Thankfully, we are most likely building a new house in the next year or two and part of that plan will be a purposefully built 2ch audio room in the basement. Concrete slab floors are amazing, especially if you like to spin vinyl on occasion.


----------



## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

BIGTIMEBALLER said:


> I think the PB prices are back down… maybe even below Covid prices… especially is you take into account the 20% inflation over the last two years.


I'm most concerned about the PBJ prices as of late.


----------



## HTail (Jan 29, 2004)

Bought an Ellsworth Truth back in 2002, my first full suspension bike. It was a full XTR build with Avid Juicy brakes (pre SRAM) and a coil over shock. Similar bike today, easily a $8 - 10k build, I can't remember exactly how much I paid, maybe $5k or so, can't image more. Then in 2006 started a new build, Maverick Durance, XTR, custom Stans wheels and Chris King all around...stopped riding and never finished it. I know it's a stretch, but if anyone is interested in a boutique 26" XC/trail bike never used, I'll consider selling it or the parts.  But yeah, mtn bike prices are at least double from back when i was actively riding, but i guess 20 yrs later things will be inflated...hard to believe it's been that long now that i'm writing this!

Used to be a "high-end" audio enthusiast as well, albeit a low budget version (just out of college). Another fun hobby, trying to eek out the best playback sound. Fast forward to today, never use the equipment anymore, fine with just bluetooth wireless speakers and my phone driving them.


----------



## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

HTail said:


> Bought an Ellsworth Truth back in 2002, my first full suspension bike. It was a full XTR build with Avid Juicy brakes (pre SRAM) and a coil over shock. Similar bike today, easily a $8 - 10k build, I can't remember exactly how much I paid, maybe $5k or so, can't image more. Then in 2006 started a new build, Maverick Durance, XTR, custom Stans wheels and Chris King all around...stopped riding and never finished it. I know it's a stretch, but if anyone is interested in a boutique 26" XC/trail bike never used, I'll consider selling it or the parts.  But yeah, mtn bike prices are at least double from back when i was actively riding, but i guess 20 yrs later things will be inflated...hard to believe it's been that long now that i'm writing this!
> 
> Used to be a "high-end" audio enthusiast as well, albeit a low budget version (just out of college). Another fun hobby, trying to eek out the best playback sound. Fast forward to today, never use the equipment anymore, fine with just bluetooth wireless speakers and my phone driving them.


Spending $5,000 on a bike today you would have a vastly better bike than that Truth ever was.

You'd get reliable 12 speed shifting. Dropper post. Better suspension. Tubeless setup. Carbon Fiber frame (for $8k you'd better get carbon wheels too). Dual piston brakes with bigger rotors. More travel on 29" wheels. Bigger meatier tires... etc etc etcc

The comparison is nonsense on the face. 

If you want to go back to tiny wheels with 2.2" rubber and no dropper post... Eh. whatever.


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Ogre said:


> If you want to go back to tiny wheels with 2.2" rubber and no dropper post... Eh. whatever.


Every time there's a thread like this, a small minority talks about how they only had a stick in their day.. and they loved it.

I too had that stick. In hindsight, that stick sucked. It worked, but there's nothing that's not better now. Nothing.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> Every time there's a thread like this, a small minority talks about how they only had a stick in their day.. and they loved it.
> 
> I too had that stick. In hindsight, that stick sucked. It worked, but there's nothing that's not better now. Nothing.


Yeah, but it was only 60% of the price, and it had an XTR logo on it somewhere.


----------



## HTail (Jan 29, 2004)

Lol, love the reactions...yeah it was a great "stick" back in the day! Sure you can't compare a 20yr old bike to today's offerings. I've ridden the new stuff,12 speed 29" wheels etc, and I get it, amazing how much better certain things have gotten, glad triple chainrings are gone!. There's still a marketing/profit driven side to the changes and still stand behind that prices have inflated for the similar level bike, but that's true for a lot of consumer products, cars for example. Anyways, if I'd been riding consistently over the last 20 yrs, you bet I'd have the latest gear and paying 60% more for it.


----------



## BIGTIMEBALLER (Jul 7, 2020)

Crankout said:


> I'm most concerned about the PBJ prices as of late.


🤣


----------



## cookieMonster (Feb 23, 2004)

It still comes down to the rider. I can ride any line on my modern hardtail that I can on my enduro bike, just maybe a bit slower. Granted, I have a fair amount of money into that hardtail and it’s got very aggressive geometry, but it cost less than 3K. On tamer terrain I could get by on a fairly cheap bike. Nobody is truly priced out of the sport unless they’re dirt poor. Even an $800 bike is better than what I started out on….


----------



## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Transition PBJ...


----------



## King of Pentacles (10 mo ago)

Helmut Molde said:


> The same people who have a house, a truck & SUV in the driveway, a pool, a dog/cat, 3 kids, all the cable bells & whistles. No one I know.


You’re the only person in your way of becoming materially successful.

You manifest what you think and say. Ergo, you’re ‘poor’, materially speaking.


----------



## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

Big Problem everyone. Pink bike just spoke. “I feel longer chainstays help me be more playful with my riding as I feel centered and balanced on the bike”

looks like anything less that 435 stays is just too damn short and not “playful”. We need new bikes because geometry definitely isn’t a fad, oh wait, shorter was better 4 years ago. Although I am too lazy to find a direct quote on that. All of our prices need to go up so the companies can “develop” new geometry around longer stays.

Pretty soon they are going to be lengthening stems, steepening HTA and shortening reach. All of the old bikes will be new again.





__





Loading…






m.pinkbike.com


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

If you on a medium 435 is fine. If you are an XL or XXL then it's way to short


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

alexbn921 said:


> If you on a medium 435 is fine. If you are an XL or XXL then it's want to short


The chain stays on my tilt are shorter as that. But any longer and it'd be a trail bike with a wheel base way longer than I would like for that type of riding. Being tall always brings many, many, compromises.


----------



## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

I don't see how people cannot understand that enthusiasts like to have the best gear, it used to be affordable for most, prices have skyrocketed to a point where the top end stuff is out of reach to many enthusiasts, and they are not too happy about it.

Bike capabilities really don't play into it unless you buy into the BS the bike industry is shoveling onto the public. The difference between top tier, second tier, and even third tier has always been small to negligible..


----------



## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> I don't see how people cannot understand that enthusiasts like to have the best gear, it used to be affordable for most, prices have skyrocketed to a point where the top end stuff is out of reach to many enthusiasts, and they are not too happy about it.
> 
> Bike capabilities really don't play into it unless you buy into the BS the bike industry is shoveling onto the public. The difference between top tier, second tier, and even third tier has always been small to negligible..


The alternative perspective is that todays “okayest” bike is miles ahead of the “best” from 10+ years ago and still relatively cheaper. There are always outlier examples but this is pretty common. The cost: performance ratio is always going to spike steeply in the upper tier, it has just become exponentially greater lately. Due to technology and economics i would guess.


----------



## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

Monty219 said:


> The alternative perspective is that todays “okayest” bike is miles ahead of the “best” from 10+ years ago and still relatively cheaper. There are always outlier examples but this is pretty common. The cost: performance ratio is always going to spike steeply in the upper tier, it has just become exponentially greater lately. Due to technology and economics i would guess.


Kinda funny. I saw SpecialEd in the LBS at 10k long before the scamdemic. Frankly, No production bike is going to garner my attention when it exceeds that kinda money. A fully custom would keep a hellalotta dosh in my pocket annnnnnnnnnnnd, I get my desired dimensions and geo.


----------



## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

There's a point to this thread. I had an ad pop up for Absolute Black brake pads. $60 per wheel. Lol. Not.


----------



## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Shimano XT and XTR 4 pots are $50. F'ing stupid.


----------



## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

milehi said:


> There's a point to this thread. I had an ad pop up for Absolute Black brake pads. $60 per wheel. Lol. Not.


But, but ...they have _graphene _


----------



## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

milehi said:


> There's a point to this thread. I had an ad pop up for Absolute Black brake pads. $60 per wheel. Lol. Not.


Ad pop-up?

Hahahahah


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

milehi said:


> There's a point to this thread. I had an ad pop up for Absolute Black brake pads. $60 per wheel. Lol. Not.


But it's got nano graphenes.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

#absolutecrap


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

Monty219 said:


> The alternative perspective is that todays “okayest” bike is miles ahead of the “best” from 10+ years ago and still relatively cheaper. There are always outlier examples but this is pretty common. The cost: performance ratio is always going to spike steeply in the upper tier, it has just become exponentially greater lately. Due to technology and economics i would guess.


Technology? Performance? Bullsh!t. Go take a look at what has happened with the prices of road bikes. Mass produced frames made with the cheapest labor on the planet are going for $5K, $6K, $7K, more than custom frames made in the U.S. by first world labor when you can actually talk to the person who will design and build your frame. The cost of a frame by a Chinese company like Yoeleo shows the type of markup being charged.


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## artest (May 13, 2018)

mack_turtle said:


> Have you ever considered what it's like to be poor?


When you have an addiction you find ways to pay for it.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Technology? Performance? Bullsh!t. Go take a look at what has happened with the prices of road bikes. Mass produced frames made with the cheapest labor on the planet are going for $5K, $6K, $7K, more than custom frames made in the U.S. by first world labor when you can actually talk to the person who will design and build your frame. The cost of a frame by a Chinese company like Yoeleo shows the type of markup being charged.


This is spot on! All about margins across the board. Every industry is pulling the same and has used the scamdemic as the basis of late.

How was your dry f u c k???


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## DIRTJUNKIE (Oct 18, 2000)

Apples to oranges.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Ogre said:


> Spending $5,000 on a bike today you would have a vastly better bike than that Truth ever was.
> 
> You'd get reliable 12 speed shifting. Dropper post. Better suspension. Tubeless setup. Carbon Fiber frame (for $8k you'd better get carbon wheels too). Dual piston brakes with bigger rotors. More travel on 29" wheels. Bigger meatier tires... etc etc etcc
> 
> ...


Also, $5,000 in 2002 dollars is $8K in 2022 dollars.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> Technology? Performance? Bullsh!t. Go take a look at what has happened with the prices of road bikes. Mass produced frames made with the cheapest labor on the planet are going for $5K, $6K, $7K, more than custom frames made in the U.S. by first world labor when you can actually talk to the person who will design and build your frame. The cost of a frame by a Chinese company like Yoeleo shows the type of markup being charged.


I agree with all of that but the thread was about being priced out of mountain biking not marked up road bikes. My point was more about, i paid $600 for my first mountain bike in 1996. According to a quick search on inflation that is equivalent to $1134. You can get a decent hardtail for that money today.

to your point, there is plenty of overpriced stuff out there, but there are other choices as well.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

dysfunction said:


> Ad pop-up?
> 
> Hahahahah


My phone heard me thinking about pad compounds.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

My first legit MTB was a used HT in 1997 for $250. This was a heavily-used but well maintained bike that got me through my first couple years of real riding.

That $250 in 1997 is ~$450 today. I could get a used HT to get me into the sport for that today.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

milehi said:


> My phone heard me thinking about pad compounds.


Your Coco said, there's nuttin wrong with my brakes but there's sompin wrong here... WE AREN'T ON A SINGLETRACK!!!


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## Horseshoe (May 31, 2018)

artest said:


> When you have an addiction you find ways to pay for it.


I was a ski bum surviving on under 1000 a month when I bought my first bike in 1991. Six of us living in a two bedroom cabin and I paid 125 a month in rent. Threw a buck in a slot machine and won 400 bucks, which financed a Schwinn MP 21. Broke that in a few months and bought a used Rockhopper Comp off a buddy. Dirt poor and riding crappy equipment, and I don't think I have ever been happier in my life.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> I don't see how people cannot understand that gear enthusiasts like to have the best gear, it used to be affordable for most, prices have skyrocketed to a point where the top end stuff is out of reach to many enthusiasts, and they are not too happy about it.


fify


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

BansheeRune said:


> Your Coco said, there's nuttin wrong with my brakes but there's sompin wrong here... WE AREN'T ON A SINGLETRACK!!!


Just rode home from surfing forested singletrack. It's a blue bird day up here. Cracking a beer and smoking some brisket with my neighbor, among other things.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

milehi said:


> Just rode home from surfing forested singletrack. It's a blue bird day up here. Cracking a beer and smoking some brisket with my neighbor, among other things.


Way to go! Mmmm, forested siglletrack and pit cooking sound very good!
Fall colors in full majesty to top it all off.


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## Shinscrape (5 mo ago)

Do they sell ebikes with dropper posts?


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

Like I said this has been a 20 year process, not a recent thing, not only related to inflation or tech but also collusion of MRP enforcements and maybe the consolidation of bike brands. Direct to market is helping but not enough and we get stuck with stuff we don't want on a bike and spend $$$ replacing grips and saddles alone.

Or we could just be old men romancing when a Disneyland ticket or a Mammoth ski ticket, or an overnight tuna trip were $25, now $150.


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## Helmut Molde (5 mo ago)

Ratt said:


> Like I said this has been a 20 year process, not a recent thing, not only related to inflation or tech but also collusion of MRP enforcements and maybe the consolidation of bike brands. Direct to market is helping but not enough and we get stuck with stuff we don't want on a bike and spend $$$ replacing grips and saddles alone.
> 
> Or we could just be old men romancing when a Disneyland ticket or a Mammoth ski ticket, or an overnight tuna trip were $25, now $150.


"Overnight tuna trip"? 

Nt sure if that's a euphemism for something, or what....


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## Ratt (Dec 22, 2003)

Helmut Molde said:


> "Overnight tuna trip"?
> 
> Nt sure if that's a euphemism for something, or what....


A SoCal thing. Light tackle tuna fishing, 24 hrs on a boat, was about $35 to the outer banks, $25 to the islands when I was a kid, about $300 - 450 now. All when gas/diesel was under $1/gallon.


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## ValEs (6 mo ago)

I guarantee, my old arse is a fraction of the rider you are. Until 3 months ago I was still riding an 26”Haro Extreme x1 FS. It didn’t shift completely on a couple of gears. The suspension basically sucked. It didn’t shift onto the big ring anymore. The BB clunked with every hit. Going down, I basically just hung on and went for it. I paid $200 on a 10 yrs ago. I couldn’t see paying today‘s prices for a new bike.
Then I rode my buddy’s 29r Kona 34 and I was sold. 3 wks later I bit the bullet and brought a used primo BMC Trailfox 1,0 and I truly was born again!! 
Point is if you want to and love to ride you will…ride. To the OP a modern $800 is mtb 1000x better than my old mtb.
Go for it, man!


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

It's weird. In 1995, I bought a used Hardrock for $200. Twenty sumpin' years later when I bought another used Hardrock it was $225. Prices be cray


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Horseshoe said:


> Supersuckers! Still have a Mid-Fi sweatshirt I bought off their managers back while they played a boat cruise in the Milwaukee Harbor about a dozen years ago.


Seen em about half a dozen times, just a great act, both versions of their show. Got to share some of the good good livin with eddie n the gang after the show too. They seemed to enjoy the Canadian stuff


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> I don't see how people cannot understand that enthusiasts like to have the best gear, it used to be affordable for most, prices have skyrocketed to a point where the top end stuff is out of reach to many enthusiasts, and they are not too happy about it.
> 
> Bike capabilities really don't play into it unless you buy into the BS the bike industry is shoveling onto the public. The difference between top tier, second tier, and even third tier has always been small to negligible..


Really? When I was a starving resident all I could afford was a $300 Trek 400 mountain bike which I rode until I could finally afford something better. The nice bikes were definitely out of my reach…or rather I could in no way justify spending $1200 on a bike, a typical price for a really nice bike back in 2007. $1200 gets you a fairly nice bike today.

I’ll say it again. Do some of you people actually enjoy the hobby of mountain biking? You sure complain a lot about spending money on it. I like spending money on bikes and stuff. The Lord knows I spend a lot more on stuff I don’t want to.


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

Ailuropoda said:


> I’ll say it again. Do some of you people actually enjoy the hobby of mountain biking? You sure complain a lot about spending only on it. I like spending money on bikes and stuff. The Lord knows I spend a lot more on stuff I don’t want to.


I love mountain biking, but I don't care to, or feel the need to spend a bunch of money on it. I can have plenty of fun mountain biking for a very reasonable budget. I'd rather spend my money traveling and buying homes.



SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> I don't see how people cannot understand that enthusiasts like to have the best gear...


Not all enthusiasts want the best gear. For many it is about the activity more than the equipment. There are a lot of us enthusiasts who are not remotely interested in the equipment, but value the experience instead.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

sgltrak said:


> I love mountain biking, but I don't care to, or feel the need to spend a bunch of money on it. I can have plenty of fun mountain biking for a very reasonable budget. I'd rather spend my money traveling and buying homes.
> 
> 
> Not all enthusiasts want the best gear. For many it is about the activity more than the equipment. There are a lot of us entusiasts who are not remotely interested in the equipment, but value the experience instead.


This right here. As long as my bikes are solid, I'm having fun. I too would rather spend money on plane tickets and houses. My riding shoes are ten years old and beat. Shimanos lowest end shoes, bought in a pinch. But they fit my misshapen feet so I'm good.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

milehi said:


> This right here. As long as my bikes are solid, I'm having fun.


I'm with you there. I don't get this mentality where a rider says, "If i didn't have product X, or widget Y, I'd rather not ride."


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

MattiThundrrr said:


> I'm with you there. I don't get this mentality where a rider says, "If i didn't have product X, or widget Y, I'd rather not ride."




I don't think anyone is saying that. Most people who are really into riding do like to use nice stuff though. Why wouldn't they?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that. Most people who are really into riding do like to use nice stuff though. Why wouldn't they?


It's wrong to do something that other people don't do.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that. Most people who are really into riding do like to use nice stuff though. Why wouldn't they?


I like top shelf but it doesn't have to be "the latest and greatest".


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

milehi said:


> I like top shelf but it doesn't have to be "the latest and greatest".



That's what I meant. I doubt you or anyone else here would be happy settling with something like a Marlin 5 like many here seem to be suggesting.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's what I meant. I doubt you or anyone else here would be happy settling with something like a Marlin 5 like many here seem to be suggesting.


I think there's some sort of pride in not needing wanting anything modern.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

J.B. Weld said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that. Most people who are really into riding do like to use nice stuff though. Why wouldn't they?











Dropper post, who has ditched them and why?


Ok, I just got a new bike (Trek Top Fuel) with a dropper post. I have been riding a hard tail the last nine years and never saw the need for one. I don't ride steep or jumps, just old school cross country trails mainly tight and twisty with rolling hills. I have tried to use the post a few...




www.mtbr.com





Read through this one and count the variations of people saying they would rather not ride without it


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Dropper post, who has ditched them and why?
> 
> 
> Ok, I just got a new bike (Trek Top Fuel) with a dropper post. I have been riding a hard tail the last nine years and never saw the need for one. I don't ride steep or jumps, just old school cross country trails mainly tight and twisty with rolling hills. I have tried to use the post a few...
> ...


ahhhhh and plenty of people who clearly feel superior for not needing one  There's a lot of smugness here.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

J.B. Weld said:


> That's what I meant. I doubt you or anyone else here would be happy settling with something like a Marlin 5 like many here seem to be suggesting.


My newest bike is five years old. The next is 12, with components from the 90s. The other is also 12 years old. I ride the older ones more because I like 26 over 29.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

sgltrak said:


> I love mountain biking, but I don't care to, or feel the need to spend a bunch of money on it. I can have plenty of fun mountain biking for a very reasonable budget. I'd rather spend my money traveling and buying homes.
> 
> 
> Not all enthusiasts want the best gear. For many it is about the activity more than the equipment. There are a lot of us entusiasts who are not remotely interested in the equipment, but value the experience instead.


In the activities that I enjoy, I value the experience and I like doing that with nice stuff - whether it's musical instruments, bikes, whatever. Many people can chew gum and walk at the same time.

If all i had was a Marlin 5, I'd ride it. A lot. But, thankfully, I don't have to. I had fun riding 'cheaper' bikes growing up, they were all fun, but not as much fun as my current SJ.

One of the reasons I became a bike mechanic was to ensure that whatever I was running, it ran smooth as butter.

Clapped out bikes suck.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Dropper post, who has ditched them and why?
> 
> 
> Ok, I just got a new bike (Trek Top Fuel) with a dropper post. I have been riding a hard tail the last nine years and never saw the need for one. I don't ride steep or jumps, just old school cross country trails mainly tight and twisty with rolling hills. I have tried to use the post a few...
> ...



Maybe taken out of context? Preference? I haven't heard any mention that a dropper is a must have for everyone.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

milehi said:


> My newest bike is five years old. The next is 12, with components from the 90s. The other is also 12 years old. I ride the older ones more because I like 26 over 29.



Right, but is it Tourney? I applaud you and I know others like you but you're outliers.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

J.B. Weld said:


> Right, but is it Tourney? I applaud you and I know others like you but you're outliers.


In order, the newest has GX, the next is XT 1x9, the next is a single speed with Altek levers, Black Ops Vs, King wheelset from 96 and a King no name headset and other stuff from back then.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> I think there's some sort of pride in not needing wanting anything modern.


That's me on the road. All my road bikes are high end steel from the early 2000s.


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## DannyHuynh (Sep 13, 2011)

i have never paid more than $1200 for a MTB. I only buy used bikes in good condition. When I want to upgrade or try something else I sell my current bike and use that money towards a different used bike. Bikes I've owned:

2003 Kona Kahuna Deluxe - $250 purchased in 2011
2008 Giant Trance - $600 purchased in 2012
2012 Giant Reign - $900 Purchased in 2013
2009 Santa Cruz Blur LT- $650 purchased in 2014
2015 Trek Slash 7 27.5 - $1100 purchased 2022

you don't have to spend thousands of dollars on new bikes to enjoy MTBing


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

chazpat said:


> That's me on the road. All my road bikes are high end steel from the early 2000s.


Me too (although I have steel and carbon bikes up to that period), but I don't get pissy about people wanting disc brakes on a road bike either, nor do I really take any pride in it either. They just continue to suit my needs.


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

I do agree that high end bikes (and mid level) are prohibitively expensive for many people.

Here's how I funded my addiction (a method used by many shop rats)

I've been riding mountain bikes since 1989. Had many bikes, Had a Cannondale Jekyll (1st Gen. Aluminum. This is what Cdale considered acceptable as a warranty replacement for my Raven 2, which I spent $3k on in 2000). Long story short, that was my last purchase of anything ever from Cannondale.

Anyway, after getting over the resentment, I rode the snot out of that frame from 2002 to 2010. I decided to buy a new mtb, an aluminum Spez Stumpy. Avid Elixirs, Sram X9 drive train, Fox suspension, KS dropper (I think?) etc. Paid retail, $3300. Got job at a LBS shortly after. I worked at other bikes shops previously, but never bought anything like a frame or bike at cost.
Sold the SJ, bought a 26er Remedy. I think I had to spend maybe $200 to make up the difference.

The following list are bikes that I bought at EP discount as an employee. I made money on all the bikes sold:
2012 sold the alloy Remedy, bought a Carbon SJ 26er (I loathed that bike)
2013 sold the SJ, bought a Tallboy LTC
2014 sold the LTC, bought a Tallboy 2 and had enough money leftover to buy a Spez control carbon wheelset.
2015, Sold the TB2, bought another TB LTc
2016, TB LTc got ripped off, homeowner's insurance FTW. Bought a V2 5010 and a Spez Roubaix.
2016 sold the 5010, got a '17 Fuel EX 9.8 and a set of Bonty Line Pro carbon wheels. Also sold the Roubaix and bought an Emonda.
2017 Sold the Emonda for a '18 carbon Remedy
2018 Sold the Remedy for a Checkpoint
2019 Sold the Fuel EX for a SC Hightower 2.
2020 Sold the HT and the Checkpoint for an insane amount of money (pandemic) and Bought a Levo SL at only 20% off from former employer. No EP purchase on that, cause I didn't work there anymore.

Was exclusively riding the EMTB for about 4 months, then I went on a bro trip to Sedona, rented the new Evil Following cause in Sedona, no E-bikes.

Quickly realized that I love mountain bikes still. No longer working for a shop, running my own bike repair business.

Because of discount parts from my distributors (Shimano, Sram, QBP, BTI)
and a nice discount on a S-Works SJ frame from a former employer, I was able to put together a high end build kit for the frame, keeping it under $4.5k.

I have no debt, own my house, paid off cars etc. Put one kid through college, about to send the next one off, no loans.

All in all, I spent about $8k on bikes since 2010 (not including replacement parts, accessories, etc), also got to ride/own 13 really nice roadbikes and mtb's during that time and currently have 2 pretty sweet bikes that retail collectively at about $19k.

Start saving early for retirement and education. Live within your means, diversify your bonds.









Or don't.


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## Shinscrape (5 mo ago)

Wutang is for the children


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## Helmut Molde (5 mo ago)

Shinscrape said:


> Wutang is for the children


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

I've spent over $10,000 in the last calendar year on bikes, a Specialized Enduro frame that I built into a really nice trail bike and Salsa Cutthroat frame that I just finished with a cool 1x12 SRAM Eagle mullet drive train. I don't regret a dime of the money I spent. I have two really, really nice bikes that are a pleasure to ride. I'm not rich. I do okay, though, but prioritize discretionary spending on things I like. The number would have been higher but I had a nice wheelset and some other nice parts sitting around from previous projects. The Enduro itself is far advanced of my first full-suspension bike in both capability, durability, and just plain fun. I don't think I could ever go back to a 2x9 26-inch 2010 Stumpjumper although at the time I thought it was the bomb.com.

I enjoy spending money on this hobby. I actually ride my bikes, too. Since I build the whole bike now I have a pretty good idea what things cost. I favor higher end stuff like SRAM Eagle XO1 for the Enduro and the Cutthroat but there are much, much less expensive options. If you can't afford a SRAM Eagle NX system you probably are struggling enough where you shouldn't have any hobbies. I'm not busting on anybody because I have been there. In reality, there is very little practical difference between NX and XO1. XO1 is better and lighter and I'll pay triple the price of an NX system but NX shifts just fine. Same with frames. The Cutthroat frame was $2700. You can get a no-name steel frame just as capable for $400. You just have to compromise a little on parts compatibility but the bike you build will run just fine even it it might be ten pounds heavier. I'm using mine for the Tour Divide next year but you can certainly do the race on a $1200 bike

I've been on MTBR for a long time, since the Days of Rage when everything was a matter or life or death. Have we not tired of this topic? I enjoy it...but it's like "Too Much Bike."

Salsa Cutthroat. So worth it. Five grand well and truly spent. It has all the controversial stuff. DUB bottom bracket, Eagle 1x12. Tubeless tires. It's a 29er...I know, right? No dropper post.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Ailuropoda said:


> If you can't afford a SRAM Eagle NX system you probably are struggling enough where you shouldn't have any hobbies.



What? You can spend several thousand on a NX bike. Disc golf, hiking, running, etc are practically free in comparison.


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## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

NX was so craptastic i turned the bike into a Single speed in preference


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

Let me also tell you a great truth. I have had some troubles lately. Nothing dishonorable but very existential. The pleasure and distraction I get from building, riding, and thinking about bikes as well as training for endurance races has been invaluable. I mean, I'm literally the worst endurance athlete in the United States but I don't care.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

theMISSIONARY said:


> NX was so craptastic i turned the bike into a Single speed in preference



You know, in my quest for a drop bar gravel/endurance race bike I bought a Willeir Jarroon plus. The frame was really nice but boy did they compromise on the other parts. The hubs had loose bearings instead of cartridge bearings. That's just shaving every dime you can off of a build. It had an NX drivetrain and it actually shifted pretty well.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Costco has a pretty good deal going on.


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## theMISSIONARY (Apr 13, 2008)

Ailuropoda said:


> You know, in my quest for a drop bar gravel/endurance race bike I bought a Willeir Jarroon plus. The frame was really nice but boy did they compromise on the other parts. The hubs had loose bearings instead of cartridge bearings. That's just shaving every dime you can off of a build. It had an NX drivetrain and it actually shifted pretty well.


I found it wore out quickly compared to Deore, I have GX eagle on another bike that does everything nicely. I'll have to try microspline one day just to see if it's any good but if I can get Deore at a similar price I'll just go for that.

I have a set of shimano wheels with ball bearings and whilst a pain to clean and set the bearing tension they work well.


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## ValEs (6 mo ago)

Helmut Molde said:


> "Overnight tuna trip"?
> 
> Nt sure if that's a euphemism for something, or what....


In TJ Mex I believe


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## mlx john (Mar 22, 2010)

J.B. Weld said:


> What? You can spend several thousand on a NX bike. Disc golf, hiking, running, etc are practically free in comparison.


I think hacky sack deserves more than an etc.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Ailuropoda said:


> I've spent over $10,000 in the last calendar year on bikes, a Specialized Enduro frame that I built into a really nice trail bike and Salsa Cutthroat frame that I just finished with a cool 1x12 SRAM Eagle mullet drive train. I don't regret a dime of the money I spent. I have two really, really nice bikes that are a pleasure to ride. I'm not rich. I do okay, though, but prioritize discretionary spending on things I like. The number would have been higher but I had a nice wheelset and some other nice parts sitting around from previous projects. The Enduro itself is far advanced of my first full-suspension bike in both capability, durability, and just plain fun. I don't think I could ever go back to a 2x9 26-inch 2010 Stumpjumper although at the time I thought it was the bomb.com.
> 
> I enjoy spending money on this hobby. I actually ride my bikes, too. Since I build the whole bike now I have a pretty good idea what things cost. I favor higher end stuff like SRAM Eagle XO1 for the Enduro and the Cutthroat but there are much, much less expensive options. If you can't afford a SRAM Eagle NX system you probably are struggling enough where you shouldn't have any hobbies. I'm not busting on anybody because I have been there. In reality, there is very little practical difference between NX and XO1. XO1 is better and lighter and I'll pay triple the price of an NX system but NX shifts just fine. Same with frames. The Cutthroat frame was $2700. You can get a no-name steel frame just as capable for $400. You just have to compromise a little on parts compatibility but the bike you build will run just fine even it it might be ten pounds heavier. I'm using mine for the Tour Divide next year but you can certainly do the race on a $1200 bike
> 
> ...


I'll use XO1 on cassettes but GX for a rear derailleur since they look like they're ran through a blender in short order. Cranks too.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> What? You can spend several thousand on a NX bike. Disc golf, hiking, running, etc are practically free in comparison.


All of those free things you listed are nowhere near as fun as biking though 

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## Dharmabum (Apr 18, 2021)

mack_turtle said:


> Costco has a pretty good deal going on.
> View attachment 2004940


Costco subbing out the assembly to Walmart?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

NX is fine. The Wednesday I bought 4 years came with NX 1x11. After reading all the hate it gets on MTBR I figured it would suck.

The reality is that it has shifted just as well as my XT 1x11and has held up great to some of the worst conditions I have subjected a drivetrain to.


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## jeremy3220 (Jul 5, 2017)

NX is heavy but should work just fine. My wife's bike has had NX 12 spd for a couple years. I've barely had to mess with it.


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## rain164845 (Jul 6, 2008)

mack_turtle said:


> Costco has a pretty good deal going on.
> View attachment 2004940


Wonder what they're charging for that top shelf assembly job?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Read through this one and count the variations of people saying they would rather not ride without it


Why is that a problem?


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

rain164845 said:


> Wonder what they're charging for that top shelf assembly job?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I saw it on Reddit as well, pretty sure he said his buddy helped him build it.

So neither one of them noticed that they installed the fork backwards.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

alexbn921 said:


> If you on a medium 435 is fine. If you are an XL or XXL then it's way to short


Way too short for you. I ride an XL and absolutely prefer shorter chainstays (all else being equal). Not everyone has the same preferences for bike geo.


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

93EXCivic said:


> Way too short for you. I ride an XL and absolutely prefer shorter chainstays (all else being equal). Not everyone has the same preferences for bike geo.


More on the CS length has to do with purpose than anything. My trials bike, for instance... It has stupid short CS with reason, TGS.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

mack_turtle said:


> Costco has a pretty good deal going on.


glad to see Fox is coming along to see the engineering superiority of the Reverse Arch


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

I don't think the issue is the cost of some new bikes. The issue is that folks need to find a better career in order to buy that 2000$ bike they complain of...


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

93EXCivic said:


> Why is that a problem?


It is not something I understand, where one piece of tech becomes more important than biking. Do you enjoy the ride, or the ability to lower and raise your seat without dismounting? It becomes a problem when people feel that mountain biking becomes impossible because they don't have a certain part.
Since this is a discussion about the increasing coat of mountain biking, and people getting priced out of it, I feel that a discussion around addiction to tech is very pertinent.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

MattiThundrrr said:


> It is not something I understand, where one piece of tech becomes more important than biking. Do you enjoy the ride, or the ability to lower and raise your seat without dismounting? It becomes a problem when people feel that mountain biking becomes impossible because they don't have a certain part.
> Since this is a discussion about the increasing coat of mountain biking, and people getting priced out of it, I feel that a discussion around addiction to tech is very pertinent.


Ok, so we need to go back to NORBA geo bikes with rigid forks, 26" tires, and side pull brakes . Or, this entire argument is a red herring.


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

MattiThundrrr said:


> It is not something I understand, where one piece of tech becomes more important than biking. Do you enjoy the ride, or the ability to lower and raise your seat without dismounting? It becomes a problem when people feel that mountain biking becomes impossible because they don't have a certain part.
> Since this is a discussion about the increasing coat of mountain biking, and people getting priced out of it, I feel that a discussion around addiction to tech is very pertinent.


Given where I ride (lots of punchy shorter climbs and rocky descents), I'd absolutely enjoy the ride less if I had to either run a compromised seat position or high post it and stop to drop the post. I'd rather give up so many other things over my dropper because of where I am. If I had lots long climbs followed by long descents, I could live without one. Also compared to many mountain biking parts, a dropper is cheap. The Brand X I use is like $135.
I'd rather ride BMX or ride gravel/back roads if my dropper post wasn't working.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

93EXCivic said:


> I'd rather ride BMX or ride gravel/back roads if my dropper post wasn't working.


Most of us would. 

The point is, bang for the buck, modern bikes are vastly better than they were 20 years ago. If you are spending $5,000 on a bike, you are getting a much better bike than if you spent $5,000 20 years ago. This is the case nearly all the way up and down the price spectrum you are getting a better bike for the money. 

The idea that you are getting "Priced Out" is just nonsense. People just want/ demand more from a bike today.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Ogre said:


> Most of us would.
> 
> The point is, bang for the buck, modern bikes are vastly better than they were 20 years ago. If you are spending $5,000 on a bike, you are getting a much better bike than if you spent $5,000 20 years ago. This is the case nearly all the way up and down the price spectrum you are getting a better bike for the money.
> 
> The idea that you are getting "Priced Out" is just nonsense. People just want/ demand more from a bike today.


And trying to compare costs from 25-30 years ago to today.. is apples to shoes.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Ogre said:


> Most of us would.
> 
> The point is, bang for the buck, modern bikes are vastly better than they were 20 years ago. If you are spending $5,000 on a bike, you are getting a much better bike than if you spent $5,000 20 years ago. This is the case nearly all the way up and down the price spectrum you are getting a better bike for the money.
> 
> The idea that you are getting "Priced Out" is just nonsense. People just want/ demand more from a bike today.


25 years ago, $2500 got you a freeride bike with top shelf components. That $2500 today is $4500 now, off the top of my head. Same same to me bike tech aside.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

milehi said:


> 25 years ago, $2500 got you a freeride bike with top shelf components. That $2500 today is $4500 now, off the top of my head. Same same to me bike tech aside.


40 years ago $500 got you a top-of-the-line 10 speed or BMX bike and that was a top of the line free ride bike. 

Expectations changed.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

...and median home prices way more than doubled in that same time frame.


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## XC Only (Jul 9, 2007)

milehi said:


> 25 years ago, $2500 got you a freeride bike with top shelf components. That $2500 today is $4500 now, off the top of my head. Same same to me bike tech aside.


Maybe not quite 25 years ago, but I bought a Schwinn 4-Banger in the early 2000s for right around $2200-$2500 new. I can pick up a Trek Fuel EX for right around $4k now that would be better than that bike at a similar weight. So yes, technology has progressed, accounting for inflation, but that should be expected. What is worrying is that the sub $1000 market is pretty much gone in terms of useable/serviceable bikes for actual mountain biking, hardtails included.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Ogre said:


> 40 years ago $500 got you a top-of-the-line 10 speed or BMX bike and that was a top of the line free ride bike.
> 
> Expectations changed.


That's around $2000 today. That's a sweet BMX bike. What I'm getting at is the cost of entry has remained stable. 40 years ago I was riding used garage sale department store BMX bikes. I wanted a Schwinn Predator or Diamondback Viper but my parents were young and getting established. I still had fun on my shitbike.


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## Ogre (Feb 17, 2005)

XC Only said:


> ...What is worrying is that the sub $1000 market is pretty much gone in terms of useable/serviceable bikes for actual mountain biking, hardtails included.


The cost of a basic trail worthy bike has not gone up faster than general inflation.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

dysfunction said:


> Ok, so we need to go back to NORBA geo bikes with rigid forks, 26" tires, and side pull brakes . Or, this entire argument is a red herring.


I never told anyone they needed to go back to anything. I said that the addiction to technology has made people believe that they need a certain part in order to ride. Every one of my bikes is 26" because I have been priced out of mountain biking, but I have several suspension forked bikes, no side pull brakes. Red herrings indeed being tossed out, but they're in your post.
Another thing I don't understand, how would NORBA geo make a bike cost less?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

MattiThundrrr said:


> I never told anyone they needed to go back to anything. I said that the addiction to technology has made people believe that they need a certain part in order to ride. Every one of my bikes is 26" because I have been priced out of mountain biking, but I have several suspension forked bikes, no side pull brakes. Red herrings indeed being tossed out, but they're in your post.


Oh, so this is just a complaint post. Ok.

If I'm gonna ***** about prices, I'll save it for important things. Like food, housing, healthcare, etc.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

I don't think new riders could make the switch to NORBA geo and ride natural terrain. 66 is too steep now.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

dysfunction said:


> If I'm gonna *** about prices, I'll save it for important things. Like food, housing, healthcare, etc.


Then why are you in a thread about people having hard times with the prices of mountain bikes?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Then why are you in a thread about people having hard times with the prices of mountain bikes?


For the same reason you're on a forum about an expensive niche sport, and complaining you can't afford it.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

dysfunction said:


> For the same reason you're on a forum about an expensive niche sport, and complaining you can't afford it.


Because it wasn't always an expensive niche sport, but people have gotten priced out of it due to technology? Oh, I guess we agree then...


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## alexbn921 (Mar 31, 2009)

Mtb was always expensive.
Dollar for dollar you can get a better bike today then 20 years ago. Better at everything.

Just like 20 years ago you can go crazy and spend a fortune. 

Gx today>2000 x9 and it's less money.


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## terrasmak (Jun 14, 2011)

$2k gets me a really nice Hardtail, $3k gets me a good fun suspension. Can even find a cheaper bike and have a blast, donT know what the big deal is


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## sgltrak (Feb 19, 2005)

XC Only said:


> What is worrying is that the sub $1000 market is pretty much gone in terms of useable/serviceable _*NEW*_ bikes for actual mountain biking, hardtails included.


_Corrected_


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Because it wasn't always an expensive niche sport, but people have gotten priced out of it due to technology? Oh, I guess we agree then...


It seems like the cost of mtbs hasn't risen that much versus inflation.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

93EXCivic said:


> It seems like the cost of mtbs hasn't risen that much versus inflation.



ding!


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

MattiThundrrr said:


> Because it wasn't always an expensive niche sport, but people have gotten priced out of it due to technology? Oh, I guess we agree then...


I remember drooling over my old neighbors Trek HT with early Rockshox elastomer based fork in the mid 90’s.

It was super expensive by 90’s standards as well. I remember the neighbor let me ride it around the yard and my dad was all freaked out because if I hurt it, he couldn’t afford to fix it.

When I first started mountain biking, I couldn’t afford a “real” mountain bike. I got really lucky and stumbled into a free bike when someone moved across country and didn’t take a bike with them and it was given to me. It was a steel, rigid early 90’s Specialized Rockhopper.

After years of working, I finally saved up enough for used, late 90’s Specialized Stumpjumper. My first bike with suspension and v-brakes.

Few months later, got into a car accident and had to sell the bike to fix my car as it was the only thing I owned that had any value and I needed my car to get to college and my job.

It was years before I could afford another bike.

This sport has always been expensive and simply out of the reach for many, this is nothing new.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

I think I know why I decided not to follow this site until I built my first _new_ bike; I didn't want to feel like there's something out there that's _significantly_ better than anything I was riding at the time. Right or wrong, that sense is (to a degree) unavoidable once you choose to peruse an enthusiast website such as MTBR.

The cost of entry to MTB has always been the same; it's a few hundred bucks, if that. The cost of having the latest technology? I'd agree it hasn't changed all _that_ much beyond inflation. Less than housing, more than a bunch of things.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

FrankS29 said:


> I remember drooling over my old neighbors Trek HT with early Rockshox elastomer based fork in the mid 90’s.
> 
> It was super expensive by 90’s standards as well. I remember the neighbor let me ride it around the yard and my dad was all freaked out because if I hurt it, he couldn’t afford to fix it.
> 
> ...


You had me all the way up to the "out of reach" part. You just can't say that about the sport with a straight face in light of the used market.


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

sacrefrancais said:


> You had me all the way up to the "out of reach" part. You just can't say that about the sport with a straight face in light of the used market.


True. “Out of reach for many” is a stretch.

But depending on circumstances, it can certainly be out of reach for some. When I was in college all money went to car, rent, food, and all school related costs as I didn’t want to graduate with student loans.

That left absolutely no money left over for cycling, actually I was negative money and had to use credit cards to float me along at times.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

XC Only said:


> the sub $1000 market is pretty much gone in terms of useable/serviceable bikes for actual mountain biking, hardtails included.


Okay, you win.....for most ridiculous hyperbolic statement of this thread. Congrats.

The fact is, there's a whole subset of people "mountain biking" on all sorts of garbage that costs far less than $1000.00. And many of them (us) do it better on those bikes than many of the people on the latest high dollar whiz-bang machines.

Just Google Kent Trouvaille for one example. That bike has a whole subculture built around it, and it's sold at Walmart of less than $400.00, and I'd venture to say it's a better bike than the bikes most of us were riding in the early 90's.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

Crankout said:


> I don't think the issue is the cost of some new bikes. The issue is that folks need to find a better career in order to buy that 2000$ bike they complain of...


Fast food joints starting near$18/hour. All the $10k e bikes you can afford!


Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Yup; I remember thinking that my Giant ATX, at the price of about 800 beans in 1990-whenever, was outrageous.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

People aren't being priced out of mountain biking, they're being priced out of winning gear-weenie trophies.
Can't say I can find any reason to feel bad for someone whining about not being able to ride because they don't have a fancy over-priced bike to show off.
Has nothing to do with riding.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Shark said:


> Fast food joints starting near$18/hour. All the $10k e bikes you can afford!
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


Time to move into Mickey D management mode!


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## Suns_PSD (Dec 13, 2013)

I just don't get the 'it's so unaffordable' comments.

I delivered coupons door to door for Dominoes at 14 years of age and bought my first CAR with that money after about 6 weeks. Sure it was a pile but it was more valuable than a MTB of the '84 era.

Sorry, but $500 was really never a lot of money for a tangible good with years of service life, and $2.5K isn't a lot of money today for people in any economic group that go to any sort of job. People with no jobs spend more than that on TVs and eating out.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> People aren't being priced out of mountain biking, they're being priced out of winning gear-weenie trophies.
> Can't say I can find any reason to feel bad for someone whining about not being able to ride because they don't have a fancy over-priced bike to show off.
> Has nothing to do with riding.


It's funny, I enjoy showing off my budget bikes, but I avoid talking about the expensive things I own.

.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> People aren't being priced out of mountain biking, they're being priced out of winning gear-weenie trophies.
> Can't say I can find any reason to feel bad for someone whining about not being able to ride because they don't have a fancy over-priced bike to show off.
> Has nothing to do with riding.


The thing is though, this is the way it's ALWAYS been.. folks are acting like this is a new phenomenon. It's not.


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## louiesquared (6 mo ago)

I paid $400 for an entry level GT Aggressor in 1999. I still have that bike and I can honestly say that a $400 Kent Trouvaille from Walmart is as good if not better than my GT. I tested a Trouvaille on some of the trails here in Bentonville and it handled them just fine. I see plenty of people on the trails everyday with budget Schwinn, Mongoose and GT bikes from a Dept Store having a great time.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

In 1990 I bought a Ross Mt Olympus for $300 new. That was my first MTB. I was making around $8-9 an hour humping furniture. Minimum was was $3.80.
In todays money that works out to $679, ~$18, and $8.83.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

slapheadmofo said:


> I was making around $8-9 an hour humping furniture.


I need to find a new line of work. ;-)


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> I was making around $8-9 an hour humping furniture.


I always hated the guys that had those HUGE oak desks, that needed to be on their third floor office.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

dysfunction said:


> I always hated the guys that had those HUGE oak desks, that needed to be on their third floor office.


I've got so many moving stories...did that **** for 7 or 8 years. Would get out and ride 5 to 7 days a week for a lot of that time.
Cry me a river about pouring coffees for $15 an hour and not being able to run XTR.
You want to ride, you make it happen.


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## NC_Foothills_Rider (11 mo ago)

kapusta said:


> My first legit MTB was a used HT in 1997 for $250. This was a heavily-used but well maintained bike that got me through my first couple years of real riding.
> 
> That $250 in 1997 is ~$450 today. I could get a used HT to get me into the sport for that today.


Hehe I just finished restoring a 2004 Jamis Durango/Dakotah (not sure which) AL hardtail with a RS Pilot SL fork, Nice wheels, Shimano LX drivetrain 3x9 etc. I hope I can get $400 for it but would accept $250.

It's a capable bike and interestingly it's almost exactly the same dimensions as my wife's steel Trek 930 from 1997 but with mechanical discs and a better fork.

Anyway, either one of those bikes, if in good shape, are durable and capable for beginners on beginner or XC type trails.

But if you want to go fast and/or be super light, you're gonna pay.


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## Old school dude (Sep 29, 2021)

I believe any hobby you get into is what you make of it. That's my 2 cents to start with. The prices of bikes are not what they use to be, that's for sure. 

My first bike after getting into mountain biking back in '96 and after some upgrades costed me about $1,500 for a hardtail. My current bike is a older specialized endro I ride bought used and will continue to ride till I get more time to ride than I do working the hours I do. Than when the time comes I'll spoil myself with something really nice. I've been itching for a new bike. But I can be patient.

I remember getting my wife (girl friend at the time) a trek for about $400 22 years go. Now days that's about $600 - $800 it feels like. Depending on what bike you buy.

Bqck some time ago to get a mid grade level bike you could spend about $2,500. Now days that gets you a pretty nice hardtail to a basic entry level full suspension.

There is always used bikes out there too. But lately it feels that the used bikes are overpriced. But there is deals out there to be found if your will to spend the time out there to look. You don't always have to have the newest and greatest most expensive bike out there. It's what you make of it. Long as your having fun that's all that matters in my book. 

Currently I have a new bike on order for a Christmas and birthday present for my kid. It's sad to say he out rides me and spends all summer with the team riding. He loves it. One of the reasons I feel like I can justify buying him a new bike.

What blows my mind is attending the nica races and seeing all the bikes there. It feels like a used lot for bikes of all price ranges lol. I see some of these kids with fully loaded bikes with price tags of $8,000 plus that their parents have bought them. Than if you look around you see some kids riding the parents hand me down bikes or used bikes they picked up. I guess if you have the money to afford thoses bikes so be it. It goes back to what you make of it.


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## AKamp (Jan 26, 2004)

milehi said:


> I don't think new riders could make the switch to NORBA geo and ride natural terrain. 66 is too steep now.


Other than bike parks with big jump lines the vast majority of trails that normal people ride are no different today then they were 20 years ago. New riders used to ride all the time with NORBA geometry and still could. Is current Geometry better, maybe. That seems to be the opinion of most people in this thread. But maybe not. The best riding bike that I have ever owned is my 29 Potts with what almost everyone would say is outdated damn close to classic NORBA geometry.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

AKamp said:


> Other than bike parks with big jump lines the vast majority of trails that normal people ride are no different today then they were 20 years ago. New riders used to ride all the time with NORBA geometry and still could. Is current Geometry better, maybe. That seems to be the opinion of most people in this thread. But maybe not. The best riding bike that I have ever owned is my 29 Potts with what almost everyone would say is outdated damn close to classic NORBA geometry.


Personally, I love NORBA geometry, and I really miss the days of NORBA.

.


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## Helmut Molde (5 mo ago)

_CJ said:


> Personally, I love NORBA geometry, and I really miss the days of NORBA.
> 
> .


When I'd go to mtb fests, I'd make up fake NORBA stickers and hand them out as swag. Only they said NOBRA.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

_CJ said:


> Personally, I love NORBA geometry, and I really miss the days of NORBA.
> 
> .


I loved when the NORBA circus came to town (Big Bear, CA) My favorite bike is 69/73


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## shwndh (Nov 20, 2004)

What is wrong with the Polygon Siskiu D7  bike for an entry level full suspension bike? It's $1600 right now and has thru-axle RS air fork and rear shock, modern geometry, Deore 1x11, Shimano hydraulic brakes, and a dropper. It's probably heavy but who can't start riding on this? I would highly recommend it to a beginner who wanted full suspension. 

And with modern geometry, does one really need a full suspension 1st bike? There are plenty of budget hard tails to get you in the sport. I personally think the Canyon Stoic is an excellent value at $1100. Hydraulic Shimano brakes, 30mm rims, 140mm air fork, threaded BB, thru-axles f/r with tapered head tube for upgrades. That's a killer deal, and that bike will be in service forever because it's simple and durable. 

Not available in a shop but homework will get you a deal.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

But does it have XTR?
🤡


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> But does it have XTR?


are you poor?

XO1 AXS is the minimum on my rides


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## asilker (5 mo ago)

cmg said:


> #blackpadsmatter





BansheeRune said:


> scamdemic


Damn guys, this kinda stuff is so lame


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

asilker said:


> Damn guys, this kinda stuff is so lame


Perhaps you might be one that took financial advantage of a pandemic.


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## asilker (5 mo ago)

BansheeRune said:


> Perhaps you might be one that took financial advantage of a pandemic.


Yup got me


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## motleynation (2 mo ago)

TL;DR -but yeah, MTB is too expensive..still riding my 2015 Lapierre Zesty and don't think I'll ever upgrade..MTB is all in your head.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

Sorry for skimming if I missed this, but I think the bike financing that's being promoted has had an upward effect on prices. You can have the latest carbon bling bike for low payments of $..../mo.!


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Curveball said:


> Sorry for skimming if I missed this, but I think the bike financing that's being promoted has had an upward effect on prices. You can have the latest carbon bling bike for low payments of $..../mo.!


Financing has been a very effective tool for shady business practices for years and years, it’s really frustrating how predatory it all is.

Just walk into a car dealership now. All they want to know is “what monthly payment are you looking for”. Then they try and disguise the actual cost of everything and try and bend you over for a 6 or 7 year freaking auto loan.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

FrankS29 said:


> Financing has been a very effective tool for shady business practices for years and years, it’s really frustrating how predatory it all is.
> 
> Just walk into a car dealership now. All they want to know is “what monthly payment are you looking for”. Then they try and disguise the actual cost of everything and try and bend you over for a 6 or 7 year freaking auto loan.


Yeah, I see these financing options on the bike company sites and it makes my skin crawl.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Curveball said:


> Yeah, I see these financing options on the bike company sites and it makes my skin crawl.


The 0 percent ones... it can be useful, but that assumes a smart consumer.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

dysfunction said:


> The 0 percent ones... it can be useful, but that assumes a smart consumer.


I always feel like there's a hidden trick in there somewhere. Getting someone to spend more than they should on something because the financing is free.

Then again, financing anything is kind of outside my wheelhouse these days.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Curveball said:


> I always feel like there's a hidden trick in there somewhere.
> 
> Then again, financing anything is kind of outside my wheelhouse these days.


I've leveraged those a couple times. Mostly when I had cash anyway, but wanted to pad against other things that were potentially going on. Generally on things like furniture 

Oh, and a refrigerator.. because ours died in early December


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

dysfunction said:


> The 0 percent ones... it can be useful, but that assumes a smart consumer.


I always pay for things in cash, unless someone is offering 0% financing, then I basically always take that (if it’s actually a large enough purchase to bother with the hassle).

I get to sit on my cash and your going to give me your money and I get to slowly pay you back, for free?

Yes please!

My wife went on a furniture buying spree a few years ago at Restoration Hardware. I saw that total and they had a year 0% interest, with no fees. I absolutely sat on that pile of cash and happily took a full year to reimburse RH!


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

dysfunction said:


> The 0 percent ones... it can be useful, but that assumes a smart consumer.


Yep I financed half the price of my bike. 0 percent if paid in 12 months. I just pay monthly until it’s paid off. I finance many things that offer 0 percent. Frees up money for other things.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Tallboy723 said:


> Yep I financed half the price of my bike. 0 percent if paid in 12 months. I just pay monthly until it’s paid off. I finance many things that offer 0 percent. Frees up money for other things.


and your money makes money, in savings


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

dysfunction said:


> I've leveraged those a couple times. Mostly when I had cash anyway, but wanted to pad against other things that were potentially going on. Generally on things like furniture
> 
> Oh, and a refrigerator.. because ours died in early December


I did take advantage of his 0% financing at Harold's Hookers and Blow because I didn't want the wife to see a big chunk of our life's savings had disappeared.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Curveball said:


> I did take advantage of his 0% financing at Harold's Hookers and Blow because I didn't want the wife to see a big chunk of our life's savings had disappeared.


... and this is why I sit here and live vicariously


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Curveball said:


> I did take advantage of his 0% financing at Harold's Hookers and Blow because I didn't want the wife to see a big chunk of our life's savings had disappeared.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

dysfunction said:


> and your money makes money, in savings


Riiigght. Savings hasn't paid much of anything for a very long time.

You'd think that with the current rate increases that savings would pay more.


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## wolfmw (Dec 18, 2020)

dysfunction said:


> The 0 percent ones... it can be useful, but that assumes a smart consumer.


with the way rates are going, doubt this is going to be a thing much longer... although I guess some companies may be willing to eat some losses on interest to keep prices high


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## wolfmw (Dec 18, 2020)

Curveball said:


> I did take advantage of his 0% financing at Harold's Hookers and Blow because I didn't want the wife to see a big chunk of our life's savings had disappeared.


what does the payment plan on that look like? asking for friend


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Curveball said:


> Riiigght. Savings hasn't paid much of anything for a very long time.
> 
> You'd think that with the current rate increases that savings would pay more.


0,847% yield is still better than 0 

It's too bad that this is not how these are calculated


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

wolfmw said:


> what does the payment plan on that look like? asking for friend


Check with @Harold. I think he has special plans for MTBR members.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

dysfunction said:


> 0,847% yield is still better than 0
> 
> It's too bad that this is not how these are calculated


I think I found more in change beneath my couch than I made in savings interest last year.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Curveball said:


> I think I found more in change beneath my couch than I made in saving interest last year.


I donno, at 1 percent.. using someone else's cash for 12 months, then paying it off in one fail swoop.. that's at least a couple 12 packs.


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

Curveball said:


> Riiigght. Savings hasn't paid much of anything for a very long time.
> 
> You'd think that with the current rate increases that savings would pay more.


There are many HYSA paying 3% or more now.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Isn't the thing with 0% interest that you don't have to pay it off in the time period but if you don't, a very high interest rate kicks in?


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## BansheeRune (Nov 27, 2011)

chazpat said:


> Isn't the thing with 0% interest that you don't have to pay it off in the time period but if you don't, a very high interest rate kicks in?


Many of these are a wolf in sheep's clothing. Go over the payoff date and they bill you interest compounded from day one on the whole balance. Pays to own a pair of reading glasses and use em!


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

BansheeRune said:


> Many of these are a wolf in sheep's clothing. Go over the payoff date and they bill you interest compounded from day one on the whole balance. Pays to own a pair of reading glasses and use em!


Yeah, that's right, I forgot about the "goes back to day one" part. I think a certain To Go furniture place liked to pull that one, probably still does.


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## baitdragger (Feb 6, 2007)

BansheeRune said:


> Many of these are a wolf in sheep's clothing. Go over the payoff date and they bill you interest compounded from day one on the whole balance. Pays to own a pair of reading glasses and use em!


that and if they run a credit check each time you finance a $4,000 bike. Not always the smart play. Hard credit checks are not things to collect


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

Curveball said:


> Riiigght. Savings hasn't paid much of anything for a very long time.
> 
> You'd think that with the current rate increases that savings would pay more.


You need a new bank then. 

Mine pays 2.5% on a savings account and they pay me interest on my brokerage account as well. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shekky (Oct 21, 2011)

Blue Dot Trail said:


> If you think mountain bikes are stupid expensive right now, you should see what kind of laughable prices houses are going for….



try looking at the prices of some of the better nikon lenses. i just paid five bills for a used 16-80 that runs at least $1200 new.

photography can be a very expensive hobby.


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

chazpat said:


> Isn't the thing with 0% interest that you don't have to pay it off in the time period but if you don't, a very high interest rate kicks in?


Correct. They have very strict terms and if you don’t meet them, they are going to give it you, hard and dry.

IIRC, they are required to give you terms that include monthly installments that pay the loan off in full by the end of the term. If you start missing payments, or are late, you’re going to be in for some painful penalties.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Curveball said:


> Check with @Harold. I think he has special plans for MTBR members.


I have a few plans available. I offer my employees steep discounts, for one. Services are free, and products at cost. I'm always looking for people to work the production line.

For MTBR members, I offer the "Blow Me" plan. For a low $999.99 annually, (regularly $39.99/week, a savings of $920/yr) you get all the blow you can take for a single 12hr period each month. And if you sign up with a Synchrony card, I can offer you 12mo same as cash.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

2.5% on a savings account is an amazing rate. what bank?


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> There are many HYSA paying 3% or more now.


With a 3% return, you're only losing about 7% on your savings. Because ~10% inflation.

Then again, stocks really aren't keeping up with inflation either.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

Carl Mega said:


> 2.5% on a savings account is an amazing rate. what bank?


Ally


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Curveball said:


> With a 3% return, you're only losing about 7% on your savings. Because ~10% inflation.
> 
> Then again, stocks really aren't keeping up with inflation either.


They're really not expected to. The market is really a poor indication of anything, other than the market. 

Could be worse, could be Britain.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

dysfunction said:


> They're really not expected to. The market is really a poor indication of anything, other than the market.
> 
> Could be worse, could be Britain.


All quite true. I guess the gist of my post is that there doesn't seem to be any investment vehicle available that will keep up with current inflation.

Britain is a hot mess about now.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

ttengineer said:


> Ally


Thanks. Is it 2.5% regardless of balance? I see they have 'tiers' but don't discuss APY respectively. Typically, I've seen banks promise high APY but capped at low balances.


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## cmg (Mar 13, 2012)

Harold said:


> I offer the "Blow Me" plan. For a low $999.99 annually, (regularly $39.99/week, a savings of $920/yr)


l offer the "Blow Me" plan regularly to my misses, for FREE!!!!
and she still thinks its a rip off


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## SkyAboveDirtBelow (Apr 14, 2019)

Curveball said:


> All quite true. I guess the gist of my post is that there doesn't seem to be any investment vehicle available that will keep up with current inflation.
> 
> Britain is a hot mess about now.


iBonds. The interest rate adjusts every six months of ownership. If you bought last week you got 9.62% for the first six months. The six months after that will be ~6.49%. If you buy now you get a 0.40% fixed rate plus the variable, which will come out to 6.89%.

You can only buy $10K plus an additional $5K with your tax return (assuming you actually get money returned.) You have to hold for at least a year. If you sell out before five years then you sacrifice the last three months of interest. You are not exactly getting rich, but the you can lose real value slower in the face of inflation.

Some banks are now paying 3.5%. My eTrade saving account is at 2.75%. Those have not yet adjusted to the Fed's announcement yesterday of another 0.75% bump. It seems like soon we might see the 5-6% you could get twenty years ago.


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## Curveball (Aug 10, 2015)

SkyAboveDirtBelow said:


> iBonds. The interest rate adjusts every six months of ownership. If you bought last week you got 9.62% for the first six months. The six months after that will be ~6.49%. If you buy now you get a 0.40% fixed rate plus the variable, which will come out to 6.89%.
> 
> You can only buy $10K plus an additional $5K with your tax return (assuming you actually get money returned.) You have to hold for at least a year. If you sell out before five years then you sacrifice the last three months of interest. You are not exactly getting rich, but the you can lose real value slower in the face of inflation.
> 
> Some banks are now paying 3.5%. My eTrade saving account is at 2.75%. Those have not yet adjusted to the Fed's announcement yesterday of another 0.75% bump. It seems like soon we might see the 5-6% you could get twenty years ago.


Yeah, I just heard about the ibonds on the radio yesterday. Looks like a pretty great option and I'll likely buy some very soon. I well remember the 5-6% savings accounts from back then. It was great because inflation wasn't too high at the time and so you'd actually come out ahead. I seem to recall CDs doing even better.


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## tick_magnet (Dec 15, 2016)

Capital one 360, 3% Savings and one year CDs at 4%. Not as good as iBonds but a hell of a lot simpler and flexible.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

cmg said:


> l offer the "Blow Me" plan regularly to my misses, for FREE!!!!
> and she still thinks its a rip off


Harold's Hookers and Blow probably offers a little bit "extra" in the Blow Me plan than what you can get at home.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

Carl Mega said:


> Thanks. Is it 2.5% regardless of balance? I see they have 'tiers' but don't discuss APY respectively. Typically, I've seen banks promise high APY but capped at low balances.


I believe there is a cap but I’m not sure what it is. 


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

FrankS29 said:


> Just walk into a car dealership now. All they want to know is “what monthly payment are you looking for”


I tried to pay cash for my last car purchase at a dealership. They told me that it would mean the car would cost more if I paid up front. I walked.


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

MattiThundrrr said:


> I tried to pay cash for my last car purchase at a dealership. They told me that it would mean the car would cost more if I paid up front. I walked.


I suppose if you can borrow for less than the inflation rate you could pay it back later with dollars that are worth less. So that's not a lie. 

Kinda why politicians have a love/hate with inflation. Sure it makes their constituents mad, but with trillions in debt to deal with, every dollar they can inflate away is one they don't have to tax away.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

MattiThundrrr said:


> I tried to pay cash for my last car purchase at a dealership. They told me that it would mean the car would cost more if I paid up front. I walked.


They make money on the finance end, even if it's just brokering the deal they'll get a commission, but not enough to let you walk. Was it a used car dealer? Some are more in the repo/resale business than anything else.


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## MattiThundrrr (Jul 6, 2019)

Dunnigan said:


> I suppose if you can borrow for less than the inflation rate you could pay it back later with dollars that are worth less. So that's not a lie.


No, that's not what I mean. There was a price on the window. If I paid with cash up front, they would not sell it for that amount, but for a higher amount. They wanted me to pay more because they wouldn't get their financing profits.


_CJ said:


> Was it a used car dealer?


Dodge/Jeep/Ram dealership selling a used Pathfinder.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

ttengineer said:


> I believe there is a cap but I’m not sure what it is.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's what Harold said...


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

MattiThundrrr said:


> No, that's not what I mean. There was a price on the window. If I paid with cash up front, they would not sell it for that amount, but for a higher amount. They wanted me to pay more because they wouldn't get their financing profits.
> 
> Dodge/Jeep/Ram dealership selling a used Pathfinder.


Yeah, I’d walk out of there too. No time to play those games.


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## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

In looking at the number of mountain bikers on the trails here in Colorado, I think it is fortunate that maybe prospective mountain bikers are taking up running or rock climbing..or nothing.


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## Gdirrty216 (Nov 23, 2018)

A good used bike is REALLY easy find right now. Especially if you don’t care about carbon.You can get an excellent alloy bike for $2500. That’s still a lot for some, but if you ride 50 times a year that’s $50 bucks a ride, then it’s basically maintenance after that which for a decent AL bike should not be huge. MTB can be a cheap sport if you want it to Be. My 72 year old neighbor still rides a 15 year old stumpjumper faster than half of people on our trails riding Yetis.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Gdirrty216 said:


> A good used bike is REALLY easy find right now. Especially if you don’t care about carbon.You can get an excellent alloy bike for $2500. That’s still a lot for some, but if you ride 50 times a year that’s $50 bucks a ride, then it’s basically maintenance after that which for a decent AL bike should not be huge. MTB can be a cheap sport if you want it to Be. My 72 year old neighbor still rides a 15 year old stumpjumper faster than half of people on our trails riding Yetis.


$50/ride? 

Man, I don't even want to do that math...but I can't help myself. Currently at $3.80/mile for my ebike. I definitely need to ride it more and bring that number down.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

_CJ said:


> $50/ride?
> 
> Man, I don't even want to do that math...but I can't help myself. Currently at $3.80/mile for my ebike. I definitely need to ride it more and bring that number down.


Not to mention, the more bikes you buy the more you spread out maintenance costs, so it comes out as a wash in the end. At least that's what I tell my wife.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

Monty219 said:


> Not to mention, the more bikes you buy the more you spread out maintenance costs, so it comes out as a wash in the end. At least that's what I tell my wife.


I not sure that pencils out but I like your style! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

Monty219 said:


> Not to mention, the more bikes you buy the more you spread out maintenance costs, so it comes out as a wash in the end. At least that's what I tell my wife.


I'm actually going to be selling my backup bike as I can't keep justifying the cost of maintaining 2 high end mountain bikes. Especially as I like my bikes to have similar setups. So, I upgrade one and immediately want to upgrade the other... 

Going to try life as someone that only has 3 bikes to choose from.


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## Monty219 (Oct 26, 2020)

trmn8er said:


> I not sure that pencils out but I like your style!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am obviously more than half joking, but there is a bit of truth to the idea, especially for consumables and things like damper service.


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## _CJ (May 1, 2014)

Monty219 said:


> Not to mention, the more bikes you buy the more you spread out maintenance costs, so it comes out as a wash in the end. At least that's what I tell my wife.


If that's your story, stick with it. My maintenance seems to multiply with the number of bikes, not divide.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

_CJ said:


> $50/ride?
> 
> Man, I don't even want to do that math...but I can't help myself. Currently at $3.80/mile for my ebike. I definitely need to ride it more and bring that number down.



You can never justify the math if you're really into cycling. I've probably spent the price of small house on bikes and bike stuff over the last twenty years. All I have to show for it on paper are the six bikes I currently own. I probably have $6000 in my Enduro. I've ridden it 30 times this year (I have other bikes). That's $200 a ride. If I keep it for two years it will be $100 a ride. Mountain biking can be a very, very expensive hobby. My cost per mile on every bike but my bikepacking thing is pretty high. And even the bike packing thing probably has cost me a dollar a mile if you count all the upgrades and maintenance.


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## Tallboy723 (4 mo ago)

MattiThundrrr said:


> I tried to pay cash for my last car purchase at a dealership. They told me that it would mean the car would cost more if I paid up front. I walked.


Next time just take the loan to get the price and go pay the loan off the next day. 🤑


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

Tallboy723 said:


> Next time just take the loan to get the price and go pay the loan off the next day. 🤑


Not a bad idea. Or even change your mind on financing after contract for purchase is signed at a certain price but the financing papers aren’t. Avoid the financing app fee.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

chazpat said:


> Isn't the thing with 0% interest that you don't have to pay it off in the time period but if you don't, a very high interest rate kicks in?


Hell if I know. They offered 0% and I thought "free money!". I just pay my monthly sum and all is good.


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

asilker said:


> Damn guys, this kinda stuff is so lame


Actually it's about time we can all make fun of it. What a joke of those 2 years.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## Schril (Oct 28, 2010)

I don't believe it's being priced out of mtb, it's more like not tolerating the rise in cost of mtb.


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## asilker (5 mo ago)

Shark said:


> Actually it's about time we can all make fun of it. What a joke of those 2 years.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


Well to be clear I'm not telling you what you can or can't joke about. Do your thing.

You can make fun of whoever you want, but that doesn't make make your joke any good. That stuff is still astoundingly lame.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

BansheeRune said:


> Perhaps you might be one that took financial advantage of a pandemic.


No. Just had people die from it.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

Schril said:


> I don't believe it's being priced out of mtb, it's more like not tolerating the rise in cost of mtb.


Tell me about it. 

You see the new Yeti SB160? 

$5000 dollars for a frame only! Not a frame set. That’s insane. Yetis are good bikes but damn, $5k, it ain’t worth that. It’s nothing particularly new in the engineering either. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Ailuropoda said:


> I've probably spent the price of small house on bikes and bike stuff over the last twenty years. .... probably have $6000 in my Enduro. I've ridden it 30 times this year (I have other bikes). That's $200 a ride. If I keep it for two years it will be $100 a ride.


Let's say you do 2 years, sell it for $4500. So $1500 got you 60 rides for about $25 a pop. Ain't that bad. While this isn't my calc, I think a lot of people get something like this.... resell/turnover can take some sting out of it if you are not the type to put on several hundred rides a year over multi-years... 

I know ppl like that who don't ride super often but do value a new bike every 1-2 years... just calc off the depreciation.


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## DaveRider (Jul 14, 2014)

I just bought a new 125 cc motorcycle for $1200. My 12 year old 26" fs mtb would cost $3000+ to replace.


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## trmn8er (Jun 9, 2011)

5100 miles on my Primer. I paid 6200 including frame replacement. Average ride length right around 13 miles as this is my trail bike. That’s right around 392 rides in it over 5 years. About 15 bucks per ride and they will drop way lower over time. Not bad. 

My XC bike has only 73 rides on it as it is a 2022. I paid 5200 on a special deal. 71 bucks a ride and dropping fast as I ride it a lot. Ride length avg 18 miles. 

Previous bikes are usually around 10 bucks a ride when I factor money recouped in selling them off. 
I’m 61 years old in two weeks. I figure 10 bucks per ride is money we’ll spent to help reduce heart disease and other complications of getting old 


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

I just bought a new washing machine because $3,000 is too much for a bike.


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

trmn8er said:


> 5100 miles on my Primer. I paid 6200 including frame replacement. Average ride length right around 13 miles as this is my trail bike. That’s right around 392 rides in it over 5 years. About 15 bucks per ride and they will drop way lower over time. Not bad.
> 
> My XC bike has only 73 rides on it as it is a 2022. I paid 5200 on a special deal. 71 bucks a ride and dropping fast as I ride it a lot. Ride length avg 18 miles.
> 
> ...


One or even a few 15k bikes are cheaper than a cardiologist. Of course it doesn’t take a 15k bike to put distance between you and a cardiologist, but the benefits of staying active are huge.


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## friz (Dec 2, 2012)

Dunnigan said:


> One or even a few 15k bikes are cheaper than a cardiologist. Of course it doesn’t take a 15k bike to put distance between you and a cardiologist, but the benefits of staying active are huge.


Psychiatrists are not cheap either.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

DaveRider said:


> I just bought a new 125 cc motorcycle for $1200. My 12 year old 26" fs mtb would cost $3000+ to replace.


You can buy the bicycle equivalent of a $1200 dirt bike at Walmart for $129.
You can find another of whatever 2010 bike you have for not much more.

A decent 125 costs upward of 7k stock.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Tallboy723 said:


> Next time just take the loan to get the price and go pay the loan off the next day. 🤑


That's what I did with my current vehicle. By financing I got a manufacturer's discount of $3000 then I wrote them a check for the full amount when the first bill came. It benefits your credit rating too.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Dunnigan said:


> One or even a few 15k bikes are cheaper than a cardiologist. Of course it doesn’t take a 15k bike to put distance between you and a cardiologist, but the benefits of staying active are huge.


OTOH, orthopedic surgeons aren't cheap either...


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

Nat said:


> OTOH, orthopedic surgeons aren't cheap either...


True that. That’s why I don’t seek out jumps or excessive speed. XC riding and racing isn’t fall-free, but on the whole, it can’t be more risky than sitting on a couch all day.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Nat said:


> OTOH, orthopedic surgeons aren't cheap either...


My last major crash would have easily paid for a "dentist bike", still don't regret it.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Dunnigan said:


> True that. That’s why I don’t seek out jumps or excessive speed. XC riding and racing isn’t fall-free, but on the whole, it can’t be more risky than sitting on a couch all day.


Pick your poison. I pick the fun poison.


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## DaveRider (Jul 14, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> You can buy the bicycle equivalent of a $1200 dirt bike at Walmart for $129.
> You can find another of whatever 2010 bike you have for not much more.
> 
> A decent 125 costs upward of 7k stock.


Note that I do not live in the states, did not mention it was a "dirt bike," & a new full suspension mountain bike that is worth a damn is more than $3000. Reading comprehension...


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

DaveRider said:


> Note that I do not live in the states, did not mention it was a "dirt bike," & a new full suspension mountain bike that is worth a damn is more than $3000. Reading comprehension...


Either way, a $1200 125 is the motocycle equivalent of a BSO and a new full suspension mountain bike is not remotely the same thing as your old beater.

General comprehension.


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## sacrefrancais (Nov 15, 2010)

Is that the Memory Hole Express I hear around the bend? 🚂


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## Horseshoe (May 31, 2018)

This thread prompted me to do the math on my bike:
Paid 2192 for my Diamondback Release 3 when the corporate discount meant you could get these things for about the cost of parts.
Paid 950 for a custom wheelset when I got sick of that crappy ass Novatec hub blowing up on me on the stock wheels.
Paid 350 to rebuild the shock that I blew up in an unanticipated drop
Figure 1200?ish in fork service, tires, cassette, and chain.

Just hit 2100 miles. So $4692/2100= $2.23 a mile. Sounds like a bargain!

Now help me translate this math into convincing my wife it's time to buy that Pivot Trail I've been eyeballing.


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## foogs (Feb 27, 2008)

sacrefrancais said:


> Is that the Memory Hole Express I hear around the bend? 🚂


Is that what the mods are doing? I thought I was crazy trying to find a thread like this I was on a week ago. I thought they mightve just renamed the thread title but the memory hole makes way more sense.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Nat said:


> OTOH, orthopedic surgeons aren't cheap either...


What about dentists?


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Crankout said:


> What about dentists?


Them too, which is why I wear a full face.


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## Bikeventures (Jul 21, 2014)

Marin doing their part to keep sport affordable

Rift Zone 29”/27.5” 1
• All-new Series 3 MultiTrac frame, 130mm travel
• X-Fusion Slide (29”) & Sweep (27.5”) Boost RC forks
• X-Fusion O2 Pro R shock w/custom tune
• Shimano Deore 1x11 drivetrain
• Shimano MT201 hydraulic disc brakes w/180mm rotors
• Vee Tire Crown Gem tubeless-ready tires
• 27.5” available in XS frame size
• $1799 US/$2299 CAD/£1695GBP/1999€

Rift Zone 29”/27.5” 2
Key upgrades from Rift Zone 1:
• Marzocchi Bomber Z2 fork
• RockShox Deluxe Select RT Debonair rear shock
• Shimano Deore 1x12 drivetrain
• TranzX dropper post
• Vee Tire Flow Snap 2.35” tires
• $2399 US/$2999 CAD/£2195 GBP/2599€



https://www.pinkbike.com/news/marin-launches-new-rift-zone-alloy-range.html


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## fly4130 (Apr 3, 2009)

Nat said:


> Them too, which is why I wear a full face.


To continue that point if we all wear full face helmets Ibis will reduce prices and bikes will become more affordable. We can make a difference!


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

Bikeventures said:


> Marin doing their part to keep sport affordable


When I was reading that today, I was thinking 'well, there it is. All the bike anyone really needs.'

Hopefully no one takes me to task over needs vs wants. But back on point, there are compelling value offerings that do the job.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

Bikeventures said:


> Marin doing their part to keep sport affordable
> 
> Rift Zone 29”/27.5” 1
> • All-new Series 3 MultiTrac frame, 130mm travel
> ...


I wonder if the "2" is really worth it over the "1"... I like X-Fusion stuff.


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## DaveRider (Jul 14, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> Either way, a $1200 125 is the motocycle equivalent of a BSO and a new full suspension mountain bike is not remotely the same thing as your old beater.
> 
> General comprehension.


I wouldn't call a 12 yo carbon frame bike in excellent condition a beater. The equivalent today is more than $3000.


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## Glee217 (6 mo ago)

Nat said:


> That's what I did with my current vehicle. By financing I got a manufacturer's discount of $3000 then I wrote them a check for the full amount when the first bill came. It benefits your credit rating too.


So there is no interest that you have to pay if you pay off the the car from the first payment?


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Nat said:


> That's what I did with my current vehicle. By financing I got a manufacturer's discount of $3000 then I wrote them a check for the full amount when the first bill came. It benefits your credit rating too.


I did a very similar deal too on a Jetta for my daughter. The dealer wasn't happy but it's just business.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Glee217 said:


> So there is no interest that you have to pay if you pay off the the car from the first payment?


No. You have to pay it off by the first due date since interest accrues on any balance carried over to the following month (similar to your credit card).

Just make sure that the terms of the loan don’t include any prepayment penalty.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

milehi said:


> I did a very similar deal too on a Jetta for my daughter. The dealer wasn't happy but it's just business.


I bet the Dealer was fine with it. They got paid. If they act unhappy it’s just to F with you.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Nat said:


> I bet the Dealer was fine with it. They got paid. If they act unhappy it’s just to F with you.


I'm one not to care about a pouty lip. The TDI fuel filter imploded and they tried to make it difficult but I have ways of making things work out. Once I turned them into my hill to die on...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

milehi said:


> I'm one not to care about a pouty lip. The TDI fuel filter imploded and they tried to make it difficult but I have ways of making things work out. Once I turned them into my hill to die on...


I loathe the car dealership experience. We keep our cars an average of seven years and alternate them so about every 3.5 years I have to get in shape to do dealership combat.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

My wife has 27 years in dealership finance. I'm well armed. But I'll probably never buy a new car again. My newest car is 12 years old. The last car I bought is 40 years old. She has a newer car she bought from the the dealer she works at. It's the base model with no stealership add ons. She knows the game.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

DaveRider said:


> I wouldn't call a 12 yo carbon frame bike in excellent condition a beater. The equivalent today is more than $3000.


It's worth what it's worth, probably about $500 and is not remotely "equivalent" to a brand new bike. 
Equivalent would be if you bought another 12 year old bike used.


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## chazpat (Sep 23, 2006)

Nat said:


> I loathe the car dealership experience. We keep our cars an average of seven years and alternate them so about every 3.5 years I have to get in shape to do dealership combat.


So do I. We keep our cars even longer and have only bought two new ones. We had a great thing going buying used cars from friends of my wife who were moving back to Japan. They wouldn't want the hassle of selling to an individual so we'd end up paying them a little more than they could get selling it to a dealer or Carmax.

Covid actually worked well in my favor buying my car. I emailed all the dealers around me explaining what I was doing and asking them to provide their best pricing on similar models from their inventory I chose on their websites. A few just sent me the price listed on their site but three or four provided better pricing, which I then used against each other to see who wanted to lower their price more. And it was late December. I had already driven the car the previous year so I knew what I wanted. I didn't discuss how I was paying for the car until I got to the dealership (I paid cash) to test drive and check it out and close the deal.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

milehi said:


> My wife has 27 years in dealership finance. I'm well armed. But I'll probably never buy a new car again. My newest car is 12 years old. The last car I bought is 40 years old. She has a newer car she bought from the the dealer she works at. It's the base model with no stealership add ons. She knows the game.


It must be nice to have someone "on the inside."


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## 93EXCivic (Mar 12, 2018)

phantoj said:


> I wonder if the "2" is really worth it over the "1"... I like X-Fusion stuff.


IIRC the 1 has 141mm rear hubs.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

93EXCivic said:


> IIRC the 1 has 141mm rear hubs.


Interesting; wonder if the swingarm is different or if they use some kind of adapter (that might allow future upgrades). 1 also lacks a dropper, is 11 speed vs 12, probably some other scattered differences.

The old Rifty (apparently they are trying to make "Rifty" happen) is apparently as cheap as $1400 right now.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

milehi said:


> I'm one not to care about a pouty lip. The *TDI fuel filter imploded* and they tried to make it difficult but I have ways of making things work out. Once I turned them into my hill to die on...


Yup; that's a Volkswagen thing if I'm not mistaken.


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## milehi (Nov 2, 1997)

Crankout said:


> Yup; that's a Volkswagen thing if I'm not mistaken.


A known problem.


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## Dunnigan (9 mo ago)

chazpat said:


> So do I. We keep our cars even longer and have only bought two new ones. We had a great thing going buying used cars from friends of my wife who were moving back to Japan. They wouldn't want the hassle of selling to an individual so we'd end up paying them a little more than they could get selling it to a dealer or Carmax.
> 
> Covid actually worked well in my favor buying my car. I emailed all the dealers around me explaining what I was doing and asking them to provide their best pricing on similar models from their inventory I chose on their websites. A few just sent me the price listed on their site but three or four provided better pricing, which I then used against each other to see who wanted to lower their price more. And it was late December. I had already driven the car the previous year so I knew what I wanted. I didn't discuss how I was paying for the car until I got to the dealership (I paid cash) to test drive and check it out and close the deal.


Yep. No need to haggle in person and drive to multiple dealerships. Not worth it once you know what you want. Then it's just price since the cars are the same.


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## DaveRider (Jul 14, 2014)

slapheadmofo said:


> It's worth what it's worth, probably about $500 and is not remotely "equivalent" to a brand new bike.
> Equivalent would be if you bought another 12 year old bike used.





slapheadmofo said:


> It's worth what it's worth, probably about $500 and is not remotely "equivalent" to a brand new bike.
> Equivalent would be if you bought another 12 year old bike used.


Ok...I'll speak slower...if I ride an older full suspension bike..& I decided I want a NEW one...another full suspension bike of the same model...but NEW...not Walmart quality...2022 model...it would cost over $3000. However...I bought a new motorcycle..gasoline, gears, etc...that goes on a ROAD...it was half as much as a NEW mtb...Understand? Unbelievable...


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## louiesquared (6 mo ago)

DaveRider said:


> I just bought a new 125 cc motorcycle for $1200. My 12 year old 26" fs mtb would cost $3000+ to replace.


The difference here is that $1200 motorcycle makes little effort to be both light and durable. Motor power can overcome heavy parts and heavy parts are cheap to produce. Most of the technology in that modern $1200 motorcycle is probably nothing new or advanced. A new $3000 MTB will probably have technology that is superior to what was available on your 12 year old FS.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Holy ****, and in other news...

mountain bikes are expensive, the sky is blue, and water is wet.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

DaveRider said:


> Ok...I'll speak slower...if I ride an older full suspension bike..& I decided I want a NEW one...another full suspension bike of the same model...but NEW...not Walmart quality...2022 model...it would cost over $3000. However...I bought a new motorcycle..gasoline, gears, etc...that goes on a ROAD...it was half as much as a NEW mtb...Understand? Unbelievable...


LOL. Sure.
And replacing my old Chevy Suburban with a brand new one would cost me $90,000, but I could get the equivalent of what I actually have for about 5% of that. 

A low end Motorcycle Shaped Object is obviously going to cost a lot less than a nice 'real' MTB.
A decent 'real' motorcycle isn't.

Apples and oranges flying around everywhere...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

dysfunction said:


> Holy ****, and in other news...
> 
> mountain bikes are expensive, the sky is blue, and water is wet.


Wait, what???


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## louiesquared (6 mo ago)

dysfunction said:


> Holy ****, and in other news...
> 
> mountain bikes are expensive, the sky is blue, and water is wet.


Some mountain bikes are expensive, the sky is blue when it's not overcast or dark out and yes, water is wet.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

louiesquared said:


> the sky is blue when it's not overcast or dark out


Just because you can't observe something doesn't make it false  

This isn't Schrödinger's sky


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## louiesquared (6 mo ago)

dysfunction said:


> Just because you can't observe something doesn't make it false
> 
> This isn't Schrödinger's sky


Let me correct myself then. The sky is blue when it's not dark out. If it is dark, the sky is not blue. No Sunlight means no blue light scattered around to make the sky blue.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

You know, in the context of this whole thread Schrödinger's brakes actually makes sense.


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

louiesquared said:


> yes, water is wet.


What about ice???


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

Nat said:


> What about ice???


It's always been wet when I've held it.


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## FrankS29 (Oct 23, 2019)

dysfunction said:


> It's always been wet when I've held it.












He just melts to a puddle when you hold him...


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## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

dysfunction said:


> It's always been wet when I've held it.


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

FrankS29 said:


> View attachment 2009642
> 
> 
> He just melts to a puddle when you hold him...


well, that trends with the volleyball scene.


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## DaveRider (Jul 14, 2014)

louiesquared said:


> The difference here is that $1200 motorcycle makes little effort to be both light and durable. Motor power can overcome heavy parts and heavy parts are cheap to produce. Most of the technology in that modern $1200 motorcycle is probably nothing new or advanced. A new $3000 MTB will probably have technology that is superior to what was available on your 12 year old FS.


Your logic only applies to the US. $1200 overseas gets you more bike than the US bc of no DOT & lawsuit protection bs.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

I still think the most logical way to look at this debate is to pick a major brand, say Trek, pick one of their lower tier FS bikes, say a Fuel EX 5, and compare the MSRP of different years while factoring in inflation. 


Then do the same thing for a top end model bike. 

It pretty obvious at that point that the sport is more expensive relatively speaking. 

Hell, I remember in the 2010s Specialized was known for increasing prices just about every year by something like 8% on most models. 

Brands like Marin, Polygon, and Diamondback certainly have helped take the sting out of entry level pricing and arguably make decent bikes. However, I think a beginner rider would most likely out grow the ability of those bikes rather quickly. And I’m sure the depreciation on an entry level bike is rather high, although I have no evidence to support that. 

Speaking of depreciation, I feel it’s rather low on higher end bikes as well that fall in that 1-4 year old category. But that may have more to do with the fact that the last couple of years hasn’t been particularly innovative for suspension. For example the latest Specialized Enduro is ~4ish years old now and unchanged. Both Ibis and Santa Cruz bikes are relatively unchanged as well, with just minor tweaks. And yet prices continue to rise in what appears to be more than the inflation rate. 

The new Yeti SB160 frame is $5,000 and not a frame set. That’s frame and shock only. Ouch. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

DaveRider said:


> Your logic only applies to the US. $1200 overseas gets you more bike than the US bc of no DOT & lawsuit protection bs.


What country are you in that's overseas and uses dollars as currency?
Zimbabwe?


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## dysfunction (Aug 15, 2009)

slapheadmofo said:


> What country are you in that's overseas and uses dollars as currency?
> Zimbabwe?


I'm also curious, since well.. my experience is that bikes are cheaper in the US at any rate.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

slapheadmofo said:


> What country are you in that's overseas and uses dollars as currency?
> Zimbabwe?


I'd really like to know the mfgr/model at this point. Let's see this horse. The budget-budget value small cc market is dominated by Chinese made - a significant portion of that space is stolen IP from ancient Japanese models. They really have no bearing to this conversation except they happen to roll on wheels.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

ttengineer said:


> Brands like Marin, Polygon, and Diamondback certainly have helped take the sting out of entry level pricing and arguably make decent bikes. However, I think a beginner rider would most likely out grow the ability of those bikes rather quickly.


Why would that happen with these but not entry level bikes with different stickers on them?


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

slapheadmofo said:


> Why would that happen with these but not entry level bikes with different stickers on them?


With the exception of the new Marin rift, the geo of those above have traditionally been many years behind trend. Granted I admittedly know very little about these brands as I don’t ride them or have an interest in them, other than the passing Pinkbike article or magazine article. 

I think newer style geo would encourage a ride to progress at a faster rate. As I think we all agree, bikes are far better now, and imho easier to ride more aggressively. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## louiesquared (6 mo ago)

ttengineer said:


> With the exception of the new Marin rift, the geo of those above have traditionally been many years behind trend. Granted I admittedly know very little about these brands as I don’t ride them or have an interest in them, other than the passing Pinkbike article or magazine article.
> 
> I think newer style geo would encourage a ride to progress at a faster rate. As I think we all agree, bikes are far better now, and imho easier to ride more aggressively.
> 
> ...


Diamond Back is only one on your list that doesn't have modern geo in their value priced bikes.


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## Horseshoe (May 31, 2018)

louiesquared said:


> Diamond Back is only one on your list that doesn't have modern geo in their value priced bikes.


I don't know about that. My Release 3 when probably the best value in MTB when I bought it in 18, although that value largely disappeared with the corporate discount. It is getting a bit long in the tooth but I'd still say the geo is modern compared to say pre 2016.


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## Battery (May 7, 2016)

This is post 901!


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

Horseshoe said:


> I don't know about that. My Release 3 when probably the best value in MTB when I bought it in 18, although that value largely disappeared with the corporate discount. It is getting a bit long in the tooth but I'd still say the geo is modern compared to say pre 2016.


One of these things is not like the others:












I have 2014 and 2017 Trance 27.5 and the Release is closer to their geometry than to the Polygon and Marin. FWIW, I think this not-quite-modern geometry works great on my local trails.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

phantoj said:


> FWIW, I think this not-quite-modern geometry works great on my local trails.


Yeah, "modern" geometry isn't a requirement to ride, nor is it all it's cracked up to be by many IMHO.


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## ttengineer (Jun 7, 2012)

louiesquared said:


> Diamond Back is only one on your list that doesn't have modern geo in their value priced bikes.


Marin just updated theirs I believe. It wasn’t as “modern” last year. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## louiesquared (6 mo ago)

ttengineer said:


> Marin just updated theirs I believe. It wasn’t as “modern” last year.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They did an update but the old bikes are very close to what the current geo is.


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## phantoj (Jul 7, 2009)

louiesquared said:


> They did an update but the old bikes are very close to what the current geo is.
> 
> View attachment 2009915


From what I can tell, Marin had a pretty significant "longer-lower-slacker" update in 2020. I think the Siskiu was updated in 2021. And I think Diamondback's failure to update their bikes shows they are not intending to compete in this marketplace in the future.


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