# Opportunities to eat during Endurance races



## bigmike9699 (Aug 27, 2007)

Hey Guys,

I did a search, and while I found lots of stuff on generally how often to eat, what to eat, etc, I couldn't really find what I am specifically looking for. If it's out there and I missed it, if you don't mind posting the link and I'll head there (and apologize in advance).

Anyways, I come from an XC and road racing background, but this year am getting into some endurance mountain bike events. Specifically, I am doing the Nimby Fifty, Trek XC Marathon (North Shore Bike Fest), a couple 6 hour races and BCBR (which will have dedicated feed stations through out each stage). 

I think I have a pretty good knowledge of what to eat, and when, but what I am curious about is when to take the opportunity to eat during endurance mountain bike races.

Most of the XC races I have done, there isn't really an opportunity to eat anything (like there is during a road race) as the courses generally require two hands on the bar as much as you can, so I then rely on electrolyte drinks (not to mention that with good pre-race nutrition, the races aren't generally long enough that I need to eat during the race).

Are endurance races generally the same? Or, are there opportunities where you can afford to rip open a bar (generally speaking)?

If not, what do you usually do for sustained nutrition during the race? Gels? Electrolyte drinks? 

Basically, I am just curious that if on a course that you can't totally afford to take our hands off the bars long enough to get a bar/gel open, what kind of things are you doing? Or, do you sometimes stop to open whatever you have and then go from there? 

In my head, this all made more sense then it probably sounds here, so I apologize if it's confusing.

Thanks!

-Mike

ps: on long road bike races, where I generally don't have feed zone support, I usually pack a PB&J sandwich, some fruit, and the usual gels/electrolyte replenishment, should I do the same for endurance mountain bike races?


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## 24 Solo MTB (Mar 3, 2010)

There are a million different ways to approach this... You'll get a lot of good advice on the board but here are my two-cents.

1. For a longer event - yes you will have time to eat - generally they're not as technical as XC races - someone always likes to throw a long climb in there too - so that's always a good chance to refuel.

2. I don't eat solid foods until I'm doing more than 8 hours. I go straight liquid, Perpetuem (or something similar) with some electrolytes (i.e. a gel or clif-shots). Solid food draws too much blood into my stomach and I cramp.

3. Test, test, test. Go out and do a solid four hour mtb ride near your perceived race pace and see what works and what doesn't. Don't be afraid to try something crazy but test it all before you race it.

4. Variety - unless you're doing a marathon race you'll pass by your pit each lap. That means you can have lots of different options at the ready. Bring that PB&J and keep it in the cooler along with extra gels and drink configurations - so if you feel that bonk coming on you can mix up your calorie intake to fit what you're feeling. Like I said I go 100% liquid but if I feel like I'm bonking I keep that sandwich (or something else) ready in the pit.

I could go on for days about this crap but I imagine you'll get lots of good responses here and everyone does something different. Just test a few ideas and be patient. My first endurance race I drank too much AND ate way too much. It took me about three or four races to find a workable system that I could tweak.

Good hunting!


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## staylor (Aug 30, 2007)

I race on just liquid fuel so I can't really cover the PB&J topic. 

There are parts of the trails in BCBR where you can fuel with one hand on the bars and there are lots of areas where you can't. Some of those areas are quite long, going on for 30mins or more if you are racing super hard. You have to keep an eye on your watch and on very limited trail opportunities to gulp back fuel in just a few seconds. 

If you are a fast racer (top 5) think of BCBR as a longish XC race lasting approx 4hrs per day. I don't consider it an endurance race pace event if you want to be competitive. The part that makes it an endurance race in my mind is the cumulative effect of back to back long XC race days.

Based on the races you have lined up for this year it sounds like you live in the BCBR region, why not just grab your bike and whatever fuel you normally race on and slam out the fastest 4hrs of riding you've ever done. Squamish would be a good place to test out your theories.


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## Timo (Jan 13, 2004)

Yeah - eat from the bottle as much as possible. It takes some shaking, but it works! Perpetuem, Sustained, etc.

Oh and I do find the new gel blocks to be effective. Done with bars, but may pack a home baked pastry bar......but that takes training - in the sense that you need to not introduce something new race day. Fishing these out of a jersey pocket just takes practice and opportunity......


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

+1 on the two posts above. The longer I race endurance events, the more I "eat from the bottle" as Timo put it. Before that, I would always tell myself that I would eat, but then racing would happen, and, well, the next thing you know I was an hour or two behind on the calories.

If a race is going well, I usually just stop at the last aid station for a brownie (my weakness). If real racing is still happening, I just stick with more liquid fuel. My secret trick for the last big bottle is that it's about 1/3 Mountain Dew!


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## bbense (May 5, 2010)

Either of these two bags can be very handy for eating in a long race.

https://www.revelatedesigns.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=store.catalog&CategoryID=2

If you can just reach down and grab something vs. dinking with wrappers, etc, It's a lot quicker and simpler.

- Booker C. Bense


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## UMDmtnbkr (Apr 20, 2011)

*Sounds like you know what you're talking about...*



24 Solo MTB said:


> I could go on for days about this crap but I imagine you'll get lots of good responses here and everyone does something different. Just test a few ideas and be patient. My first endurance race I drank too much AND ate way too much. It took me about three or four races to find a workable system that I could tweak.


Here's a guy who knows his food!


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## clydeone (Aug 9, 2009)

Not a thread Hijack just a related question -- I have been experimenting (as I should) on my long rides (Last was 5 hours) and have been successful with plain water, hammer gel(1 serving /20 min) and some solid food on the hour (so far a banana or an orange ,even ate an apple on the road) and had no stomach issues so far. Last year at my first MTB 100 I had such bad cramping issues That I only did 2/3 and really didn't have a chance to test my feed strategy. I am a little concerned with using solid foods given everyone's warnings. One thing I'm tempted to try is Pureeing bananas and oranges and loading them in a Gel bot Flask 








anybody tried this?


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## bigmike9699 (Aug 27, 2007)

If there's one solid food that you should probably be eating (although, PB&J is my vice) are bananas, due to their high potassium content, which is vital for the sodium/potassium pump in the muscles. 

I'd imagine that putting into a puree would be more ideal than eating one solid, as a puree is definitely easier on your stomach. 

I've had some pretty bad cramping due to insufficient potassium (as in hindsight, it was the only thing missing from my pre- and mid-race nutrition. 

I'm going to take some of the advice here and try a liquid dominated diet during the race.

Thanks for all the advice!


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## perrygeo (Aug 20, 2008)

*unwrap pre-race*



bigmike9699 said:


> Are endurance races generally the same? Or, are there opportunities where you can afford to rip open a bar (generally speaking)?
> 
> If not, what do you usually do for sustained nutrition during the race? Gels? Electrolyte drinks?


Liquid nutrition is fine to a point. I find that I need actual (semi-)solid food for optimum performance. Ripping open gels and bars is a pain in the ass and I can't do it while racing on a trail ... I've found the ultimate strategy is to unwrap food beforehand and dump it into my jersey pockets. It can get messy in the laundry but it is super easy to reach back with my right hand, grab a few dozen calories and chomp it .... i tend to nibble from the food pocket every 10 minutes and take a slug of liquid shortly thereafter (whenever i get a chance).


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## T.RAY (Nov 10, 2005)

There a lot of great points on here.One thing to consider is how many calories you are burning.I find that i can replenish faster with out the bonk with liquid than solid food.I try and put down 200 to 400 calories every 30-40 minutes(Liquid).I will have some solid food to pick at here and there,but if you go overboard with the solid food you can pay dearly for it.Gel flasks work great and you can put them just about anywhere,very little effort to open them,and you know how much your refueling with.Test out what works for you,and you will know what works for you and what won't.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Clydeone, no matter how well I nail my nutrition, or how well-trained I am, I have at least some cramping in 100 milers. My Dad and Grandpa always had cramping issues, so I suspect it's partially a genetic predisposition.

After being very doubtful, I had the least cramping ever last year when I started adding some Elete electrolyte to my drink mixes.


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## clydeone (Aug 9, 2009)

kosmo said:


> Clydeone, no matter how well I nail my nutrition, or how well-trained I am, I have at least some cramping in 100 milers. My Dad and Grandpa always had cramping issues, so I suspect it's partially a genetic predisposition.
> 
> After being very doubtful, I had the least cramping ever last year when I started adding some Elete electrolyte to my drink mixes.


I am quite used to calf cramping and can generally manage it well. However the last couple of years I have sometimes had either quad or hamstring cramping that is almost impossible to continue riding and seemed impossible to feel coming on. With my long rides this year I have gotten better at recognizing the signs of it and am able to manage it better. I really think my issue is To high an effort for the distance and what I really need to work on is pace. Thanks for the advice on the elete I will track that down as I am looking for an electrolyte for my bottles.

A week ago on my long ride I really felt like I was going to cramp up about halfway into my long ride(5 hour) but I had been rationing my food. so I started eating more and lowered my pace a bit and was able to finish reasonably strong. So things are looking up.

Just as a report I did try the banana/orange puree and it worked. However I did not get good test as I had a slipping seat post driving me nuts and really never got into a good rhythm with the feeding. I did find some Nathan gel bottles that look like they will work well for this. Hopefully I will get a chance to test them out next weekend.


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## staylor (Aug 30, 2007)

T.RAY said:


> There a lot of great points on here.One thing to consider is how many calories you are burning.I find that i can replenish faster with out the bonk with liquid than solid food.I try and put down 200 to 400 calories every 30-40 minutes(Liquid).I will have some solid food to pick at here and there,but if you go overboard with the solid food you can pay dearly for it.Gel flasks work great and you can put them just about anywhere,very little effort to open them,and you know how much your refueling with.Test out what works for you,and you will know what works for you and what won't.


Uhmmm, a couple of things...

- It's not about how many calories you are burning, it's about how many calories you can take onboard, per hour, at a particular pace. The burn rate and uptake rate aren't the same.

- Referring back to my first point, calorie uptake during a casual ride with buddies is quite different if compared to calorie uptake at race pace. I've yet to race with (or meet) someone who can race-uptake the amount of cals you are talking about... 400-800cals liquid per hour plus solid food. I'm not sure how you are doing that unless you are talking about a casual trg ride/fun ride with buddies for a couple of hours.


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## crashdude (Mar 29, 2007)

Pizza is your friend. I just eat regular food that I would normally eat at home.


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## clydeone (Aug 9, 2009)

You don't eat bananas and oranges at home?? 

Pizza is a little difficult to manage on the bike, too (at least for me)


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## staylor (Aug 30, 2007)

crashdude said:


> Pizza is your friend. I just eat regular food that I would normally eat at home.


That's great, you can order a large ham, pineapple and spicy meatball pizza and have it delivered to the BCBR start line for seven morning starts in seven different towns. Just make sure you have enough space in your jersey pockets for the tools, repair kit, fluids and pizza slices.


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## staylor (Aug 30, 2007)

clydeone said:


> You don't eat bananas and oranges at home??
> 
> Pizza is a little difficult to manage on the bike, too (at least for me)


You would need approx 20 oranges, 15 apples or 13 bananas in your jersey. I've never seen such a thing but I suppose there's always a first. Be sure to pre-mark your map with all the porta-potties along the way. ;-)


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## brassnipples (Feb 26, 2006)

bigmike9699 said:


> If there's one solid food that you should probably be eating (although, PB&J is my vice) are bananas, due to their high potassium content, which is vital for the sodium/potassium pump in the muscles.
> 
> I'd imagine that putting into a puree would be more ideal than eating one solid, as a puree is definitely easier on your stomach.


I find liquid food is best for my tummy but when i get behind on calories or feel hungry a little solid food helps to catch up, enter the banana burrito. A banana slathered in peanut butter and honey wrapped up in a tortilla. It's very little actual solid material to digest but it's just solid enough to be satisfying, is easy to take a few bites of and drop back into a bag somewhere, is in a very convenient form factor (I actually shop for bananas with less curve to them now), and has everything a bonking boy needs.


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## staylor (Aug 30, 2007)

The combo you describe is pretty good from a macro-nutrient point of view. It's a good nutrient dense cals/per lb solution. I've done similar things with the burrito but prefer to use almond butter instead of peanut butter. Gotta say it's a bummer when the banana gets squeezed out the end and falls on the trail, there's no point in slamming on the brakes and trying to retrieve it, the almond butter dirt magnetism makes sure of that. 

If you find yourself getting a bit hungry on liquid, try adding approx 4gms per hour of whey protein isolate or BCAA's and they will stave off the hunger feeling.


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## chiznitz (Aug 15, 2007)

There is a lot of science that goes into this. If you google Hammer Little Red book you will find a PDF that talks about Hammer products and what to take/when. I've read a lot of the hammer pdf's to get the science out of it. Be warned it has a lot of information about which of their products to use and when, but if you look into it you will find things like this.



> "If you want to achieve your best performance, replenish calories in "body
> cooperative" amounts, allowing your fat stores to make up the difference,
> which they will easily do. While 240-280 calories per hour is a
> theoretical hourly maximum (based on the liver converting one gram of
> ...


The person above who mentioned taking in almost 800 calories per hour...I'm not sure how you're doing it without feeling terrible. Your body can only process so much and the overtake will hurt your performance.


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## brassnipples (Feb 26, 2006)

chiznitz said:


> The person above who mentioned taking in almost 800 calories per hour...I'm not sure how you're doing it without feeling terrible. Your body can only process so much and the overtake will hurt your performance.


Funny, I recall cramming in about that much back in my first few endurance events and seemed to be able to stomach it. Now I can't get anywhere near that without puking. Maybe the difference is that I used to take a lot more breaks and generally didn't know how to ride nearly as hard.


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## clydeone (Aug 9, 2009)

staylor said:


> You would need approx 20 oranges, 15 apples or 13 bananas in your jersey. I've never seen such a thing but I suppose there's always a first. Be sure to pre-mark your map with all the porta-potties along the way. ;-)


If you read back I'm only supplementing with banana/orange I'm actually primarily taking a shot of gel every 20 minutes. The puree kinda evolved from me experimenting with a banana or an orange every hour, which works well as long as I keep up with the food) I don't think I am getting enough calories on gel alone, I've never actually had any Gastro-intestinal issues not matter what I eat. I'm just trying to continue to evolve a plan that will work better for me this year (last year in my 8 hours of pain I think I ate several PB&J, a coupla oranges, a coupla bananas, A coupla bottles packed with perpetuem)


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## staylor (Aug 30, 2007)

clydeone said:


> If you read back I'm only supplementing with banana/orange I'm actually primarily taking a shot of gel every 20 minutes. The puree kinda evolved from me experimenting with a banana or an orange every hour, which works well as long as I keep up with the food) I don't think I am getting enough calories on gel alone, I've never actually had any Gastro-intestinal issues not matter what I eat. I'm just trying to continue to evolve a plan that will work better for me this year (last year in my 8 hours of pain I think I ate several PB&J, a coupla oranges, a coupla bananas, A coupla bottles packed with perpetuem)


I was just having a bit of fun with the thread. If you go back over the years you will see a ton of mtbr nutrition threads begin with the same kinds of questions and then eventually someone will make a bizarre claim about how they race on 800cals of calamari per hour. The same stuff gets repeated over and over. I swear, over half my posts on mtbr have been spent trying to correct the sometimes unbelievable (and idiotic) stuff that gets posted up about race nutrition. Asking questions or making general comments like you did weren't the issue, it's the REALLY BAD advice listed elsewhere that I take exception with.

Anyone claiming to *race* multi-hour races on 800cals per hour of pizza is fairly unique (or alien). As a new racer I used to read stuff like that waaaay back in the day and think 'this guys sounds like he knows what he's talking about', I just didn't know any better. Back in the day there were very few experienced Ultra racers who 'gave away' race nutrition tips. Lots of posters who had never raced at race pace would throw in their guesswork two cents with 'I heard calamari works well, it's supposed to counteract metabolic waste buildup'. After reading a couple of years of some crazy stuff (some of which started to become race nutrition myths) it became frustrating to read some of the really, really, really bad advice being given to new but serious racers. For quite some time now I've been trying to give back to this forum by clearing up some of the nonsense race nutrition advice, I'm not sure if I'm having any luck or I'm wasting my time but I keep plugging away.

As the old saying goes, there's lots of ways to skin a cat, whether a racer is on Infinit, Hammer, FRS, PowerBar, fig newtons, raisins, dates, bananas or whatever... it's all good as long as they have a general concept of how things work, they've experimented with the macro-nutrients ratios, understand cals per hour at race pace vs. casual ride with buddies pace, and understand how to correct for certain gastro-intestinal issues when xyz starts occurring. Some guys will poo-poo the race nutrition subject as 'too sciency' and instead a racer should 'keep it real by eating Mars Bars, Twinkies and whatever else is in the bottom of their Camelback' but race entry fees are too expensive, gas is too expensive and time is too precious to take a laissez faire attitude for a race event. When I toe the race line I make sure I'm not wasting my time and money by racing on 800cals of pizza, when I'm out with buddies there's usually plenty of time to lean against a tree at the top of the hill and eat pizza while I wait for them. Pizza is for fun rides. Endurance* races* are different than fun rides.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and I can only base my opinion on a fair amount of endurance racing, along with evidence drawn from multiple endurance athletes (that I coach) who race multiple endurance events. I'm not trying to convert anyone from pizza race fuel, if it works for you in multi-hour races that's great but it's uncommon... at race pace... as uncommon on the serious race start line as the 800cals per hour of calamari race fuel.


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## crashdude (Mar 29, 2007)

Another 10Cents of thought, to the original poster. Take everything for what it's worth. There is a lot of good information in this thread. Pick and choose the information to your pleasing. What it all boils down to is personal choice.* Eat and drink things that work for you*. Some people do fine with all the glorified high tech, high speed super ninja food that is out there, while others do not.


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## bigmike9699 (Aug 27, 2007)

Haha, yeah, this post turned into a wealth of information about actual nutrition.

My original question was more about _when_ to eat during endurance races. I have never done endurance/marathon races, so I don't know how courses are laid out (aside from what I see on course profiles and stuff). As I said, most XC races I have done have been O-Cup/BC Cup style stuff, so shorter more technical loops that don't provide much opportunity to eat because your attention has to be focused on riding almost 100% of the time.

I was more curious about endurance race courses in terms of them having sections that aren't as technical that would afford me the opportunity to focusing on on pulling something out of my jersey to open for example.

I was also interested though, in general, if people went with solid food while riding or not, which people answered amazingly. I definitely have to try some stuff out. I have a pretty good idea from my road racing background about what I need for nutrition for 3-4 hours plus on the bike, so in that respect, I am pretty confident.

I am just stoked to be mountain bike racing again!


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## crashdude (Mar 29, 2007)

bigmike9699 said:


> Haha, yeah, this post turned into a wealth of information about actual nutrition.
> 
> My original question was more about _when_ to eat during endurance races. I have never done endurance/marathon races, so I don't know how courses are laid out (aside from what I see on course profiles and stuff). As I said, most XC races I have done have been O-Cup/BC Cup style stuff, so shorter more technical loops that don't provide much opportunity to eat because your attention has to be focused on riding almost 100% of the time.
> 
> ...


It all depends on the course. I have done the 24 Hours of fury, 24 hours in the Enchanted Forest, 12 Hours of Pain and Purpose, 12 hours in Mesa Verde and a few short cross country races all solo except for Mesa Verde. In all these races I have been able to eat on the bike while moving. Can get a little messy at times, however most of the food gets where it is supposed to go.


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