# Positive well written article on ebikes



## Phil413 (Aug 9, 2016)

Singletrack Magazine | An Electric Adventure!

Yup still having fun

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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

Glad to see CBS Interactive has such a strong work relationship with other journalists. This article nails it!!!!

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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> Glad to see CBS Interactive has such a strong work relationship with other journalists. This article nails it!!!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


You still going on with that nonsense?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

This is pretty much the same article we've seen many times before, and we'll see a lot more of, given the industry-wide slump in bike sales that's happening right now.

-Walt


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Yeah I don't think anyone should be surprised that $ingletrack would write a 100% pro electric bike article.


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

tiretracks said:


> You still going on with that nonsense?


Lol

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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Phil413 said:


> Singletrack Magazine | An Electric Adventure!
> 
> Yup still having fun
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Totally makes sense in the UK and that is the reason that it doesn't touch on any of the issues that have been brought up ad nauseum on MTBR because what seems logical in the UK and Europe doesn't seem logical in the new world and Singletrack is a European Magazine talking about European issues. We, in North America, have different stake holders, different public and private land issues and less history of people on foot and horse and bike being congenial to each other. Perhaps we acted to restrict mountain bikes quicker and earlier in the mountain biking history than Europe did or perhaps our other lobbies are more powerful or bigger *******s than in Europe. Either way you slice it comparing the UK/European Unions stance on trail access to North Americas is the same as comparing their economies. They both have economies and they both have trails. The rules governing them however are totally incomparable.


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

rockcrusher said:


> Totally makes sense in the UK and that is the reason that it doesn't touch on any of the issues that have been brought up ad nauseum on MTBR because what seems logical in the UK and Europe doesn't seem logical in the new world and Singletrack is a European Magazine talking about European issues. We, in North America, have different stake holders, different public and private land issues and less history of people on foot and horse and bike being congenial to each other. Perhaps we acted to restrict mountain bikes quicker and earlier in the mountain biking history than Europe did or perhaps our other lobbies are more powerful or bigger *******s than in Europe. Either way you slice it comparing the UK/European Unions stance on trail access to North Americas is the same as comparing their economies. They both have economies and they both have trails. The rules governing them however are totally incomparable.


Lol!

There will be more just like him.

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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> Lol!
> 
> There will be more just like him.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


To have any kind of meaningful discourse requires more than cryptic, meanings known only to you replies.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

I'm confused... Early in the article it states that these are not motorbikes, but then it states that they have motors. It either has a motor and is a motorbike or it doesn't.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> Lol!
> 
> There will be more just like him.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


You find this funny why?

All I said used that there is a difference between Europe where this article is based and the US. Posting a positive article about a topic doesn't make it supportive if it's context is not related. This is in support if the situation in Europe, where e-bikes are much more accepted. It is kind of irrelevant to the north America, because of the differences I mentioned.

I am not supporting or attacking either patron, just saying that this isn't going to be seen as particularly positive in regards to US mountain biking scene.

sent


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

rockcrusher said:


> Totally makes sense in the UK and that is the reason that it doesn't touch on any of the issues that have been brought up ad nauseum on MTBR because what seems logical in the UK and Europe doesn't seem logical in the new world and Singletrack is a European Magazine talking about European issues. We, in North America, have different stake holders, different public and private land issues and less history of people on foot and horse and bike being congenial to each other. Perhaps we acted to restrict mountain bikes quicker and earlier in the mountain biking history than Europe did or perhaps our other lobbies are more powerful or bigger *******s than in Europe. Either way you slice it comparing the UK/European Unions stance on trail access to North Americas is the same as comparing their economies. They both have economies and they both have trails. The rules governing them however are totally incomparable.


100% This.

What works in the UK or Eurozone does not necessarily work in the US where the history of trail sharing is vastly different.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Maybe those bikes will work well in the UK system of carriage roads and right to access. The quote of an "e bike is not an electric motorbike" seems far fetched at best. The trail pics show wide open trails, roads and paths, not some tight, tech singletrack like I ride. Would be interesting to see someone try to loft the front wheel up say a 10" ledge or over a log.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Phil413 said:


> Singletrack Magazine | An Electric Adventure!
> 
> Yup still having fun


Um, so where's the fun? Those don't even look like trails let a alone something I would consider fun. It appears that singletrack mag doesn't know what a fun singletrack is. Just looks like they are riding their weak motorized bikes up some hills. Be fun on a dirt bike.

Also, what's all that suspension for, the pebbles? Talk about overkill.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Ya can ride with me, I have fun on singletrack all the time with my E


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## Voaraghamanthar (Sep 3, 2016)

Lol. This forum is hilarious! !!

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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

leeboh said:


> Maybe those bikes will work well in the UK system of carriage roads and right to access. The quote of an "e bike is not an electric motorbike" seems far fetched at best. The trail pics show wide open trails, roads and paths, not some tight, tech singletrack like I ride. Would be interesting to see someone try to loft the front wheel up say a 10" ledge or over a log.


 Was lifting all morning, way larger than 10". The bikes are capable with a lot of manual persuasion.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

A" lot" being the word? 50 lbs or would seem to be a chore?


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Voaraghamanthar said:


> Lol. This forum is hilarious! !!


Uh, ya. Of course it is, because low powered emtbs are halarious. Just like the thought that segways are going to be the next big thing is halarious.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

leeboh said:


> A" lot" being the word? 50 lbs or would seem to be a chore?


 It's more strength, but totally doable. Not necessarily a chore. I'm still learning how to ride my Levo. The mass thing is totally different. Sometimes you feel like a noob, because your normal quick lines aren't there, your late. Still fun, just different.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

singletrackmack said:


> Uh, ya. Of course it is, because low powered emtbs are halarious. Just like the thought that segways are going to be the next big thing is halarious.


 Make no mistake, with good bike skills you can haul the mail on a low powered Levo. I'm guessing you've never rode one?


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> Make no mistake, with good bike skills you can haul the mail on a low powered Levo. I'm guessing you've never rode one?


So they are measurably faster than pedal power alone?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Uphills, flats yes.


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

singletrackmack said:


> Uh, ya. Of course it is, because low powered emtbs are halarious. Just like the thought that segways are going to be the next big thing is halarious.


Poor thing cant tell a Segway from a e bike lol e bikes are just a passing fad no need to give a second thought to them just ignore us , but another nice article on e bikes it was . And as all e riders have found everything is more fun on a e bike even a boring trail is fun .


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

NEPMTBA said:


> Ya can ride with me, I have fun on singletrack all the time with my E


No where to ride them near me except ORV trails, and motos, atvs, and 4x4s are the way to go there. Haven't seen them at any shops up here in Tahoe for rent or sale. However, I wasn't saying that emtbs are not fun, I was referring to the article from singletrack mag without a picture of a single track or really any trails at all. It didn't look like a particularly fun trail or hill or whatever that was.

I don't think anyone would argue that emtbs are not fun. However, they will be truly fun once they have the power to keep up with motos or close to it. One reason i am not into moto cross is the noise, exhaust, gas and oil. But a light weight, quiet, exhaust free and powerful motor bike I could get into. Getting closer with this bike here. Sure looks fun to me, but with some more power and better distance this would be great to take out on and adventure on some of the ORV trails up here.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Dude, the chick is ugly. Why not buy an Alta? I see the draw but don't. The Alice Cooper looking crack head, ain't gonna sell ****.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Ya, she is not really doing anything to help sell that bike and that guy seems kinda creepy to me, but that bike looks way better than any of the low powered embts options. 

Alta is like $15K and weighs more than I do at 250lbs.

Edit: Actually, if the alta was down in the 3K range and with some bigger wheels I might be interested. But by the time the price comes down on that, emtbs might have enough power and range, and I think they would be lighter than the alta. Who knows, but for embts to make it here in the US they will get more powerful.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

singletrackmack said:


> Ya, she is not really doing anything to help sell that bike and that guy seems kinda creepy to me, but that bike looks way better than any of the low powered embts options.
> 
> Alta is like $15K and weighs more than I do at 250lbs.
> 
> Edit: Actually, if the alta was down in the 3K range and with some bigger wheels I might be interested. But by the time the price comes down on that, emtbs might have enough power and range, and I think they would be lighter than the alta. Who knows, but for embts to make it here in the US they will get more powerful.


I hear ya. The production emtb's, specialized, trek, giant etc are all low power- pretty much. I don't think they'll produce more than 250w for a reason.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

tiretracks said:


> So they are measurably faster than pedal power alone?


 Yes! On rides I have done with our local most powerful riders it's no match. I can leave them in the dust on hilly singletrack. The power is constant and pulls regardless of gear or terrain as long as you pedal.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Gutch said:


> I hear ya. The production emtb's, specialized, trek, giant etc are all low power- pretty much. I don't think they'll produce more than 250w for a reason.


What's the reason? A 750w motor is only going to weigh a pound or two more, batteries weigh the same, the range would be the same or less depending on how you manage your power.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Harryman said:


> What's the reason? A 750w motor is only going to weigh a pound or two more, batteries weigh the same, the range would be the same or less depending on how you manage your power.


 Because I believe they'll try and follow Europe standards.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Phil413 said:


> Singletrack Magazine | An Electric Adventure!
> 
> Yup still having fun
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'm sure they're fun to ride, but the issue continues to be about trail access here in the US.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

Gutch said:


> Because I believe they'll try and follow Europe standards.


Why?

If your not commuting on it in "bicycle only lanes" what's is the point of the low powered embt here in the states? Or are people commuting on their levos?


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Gutch said:


> Because I believe they'll try and follow Europe standards.


They've already left the EU standards behind with 20mph, which is just a software setting. Even if the majority of the EU states leave 250w/15.5mph in place which I doubt since S-pedelc emtbs are gaining market share, the interest in higher power and speeds is there with the market expanding past those just wanting assist. 1000w pedelcs are legal according to the EU regs, most of the member states had previously adopted 250w, but they could change. It's a simliar set up to fed and state regs here.

Having a North American spec and EU spec emtb would be easy since the chassis would be indentical. Motors and batteries just bolt on and different drive trains to handle the increased load. Or, like what most are doing now, the same high power ebike is sold with different controller parameters.

Since the first major manufacturer to come out with a production 750w that is actually viable will steal sales from anyone selling a 250w, I can't see why they'll stick with 250w. I also predict 750w bikes selling here and then reversing and selling into Europe as they adopt higher power limits. I'm sure 250w will stick around, since for some people, that'll be plenty and the bikes will be cheaper and lighter.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Harryman said:


> They've already left the EU standards behind with 20mph, which is just a software setting. Even if the majority of the EU states leave 250w/15.5mph in place which I doubt since S-pedelc emtbs are gaining market share, the interest in higher power and speeds is there with the market expanding past those just wanting assist. 1000w pedelcs are legal according to the EU regs, most of the member states had previously adopted 250w, but they could change. It's a simliar set up to fed and state regs here.
> 
> Having a North American spec and EU spec emtb would be easy since the chassis would be indentical. Motors and batteries just bolt on and different drive trains to handle the increased load. Or, like what most are doing now, the same high power ebike is sold with different controller parameters.
> 
> Since the first major manufacturer to come out with a production 750w that is actually viable will steal sales from anyone selling a 250w, I can't see why they'll stick with 250w. I also predict 750w bikes selling here and then reversing and selling into Europe as they adopt higher power limits. I'm sure 250w will stick around, since for some people, that'll be plenty and the bikes will be cheaper and lighter.


Do you think the US will remain at 20mph cap with a governor? They could use 750 watts which would give more torque. You know, people will get rambunctious and "de-restrict" it. 
Which is not good. I truly enjoy riding mine, and it's different, but the same. 
If there was trail closures because of the ebikes, it would be sold.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Yeah, I think 20mph will stay, although as you pointed out, it's easy to derestrict them which like now, some people will do, most won't. I'd also expect that like in Europe, people will buy 28mph Class 3 emtbs and pass them off as Class 1 since there's no way for anyone to tell. They're the exact same bikes as Class 1, just with different controller settings.

If you play by the rules, 750w won't get you a faster bike, just a quicker one and one that requires less effort to pedal if you choose to ride it that way. With power limits capped, the big seling points in the more mature market of the EU are torque and battery WH. It'll be the same at 750w, just bigger numbers.


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## Giant Warp (Jun 11, 2009)

As a Levo owner I would like to say that increasing the power is a big mistake. If you like breaking your equipment then by all means jack up the power. The 11 sp cassette and chain will not take any more power. I rode like maybe 14 rides on a demo before I bought one. Thankfully I got to put one through it's paces before I bought. When things go wrong your looking at broken spokes, broken derailleur, and a broken chain.

My wife is not in biking shape. At first I thought my wife could ride the Levo and then I could ride a road bike beside her. The Levo can't keep up with a road bike on asphalt. I ended up riding a regular mountain bike on asphalt when my wife rides the Levo. In the dirt, however, the speed is satisfactory.

I've tested the vertical climbing ability in low gear. My riding weight is around 200lbs fully loaded and I've had the Levo so vertical that I stopped for fear something was going to break. LOL. When I rented a demo it was always tempting to stand up and keep pedaling no matter what gear it was in. I rarely do that with my own ride since it will inevitably break things.

After taking the Levo to Moab recently I found you only wanted to use the high power options in areas where you were sure you wouldn't over torque the drive train. Slick rock is a different animal with many step ups and technical climbing. The chain goes extremely slack in the top gears. If you are bee-bopping down a trail at high speed and flex the suspension, it is not going to hold a gear very well. The Levo is also prone to pedal strikes so at high speed you are always consumed with gear choices and route finding. In other words, you can't just kick back like you are on a moto. The bike needs a pilot.

One thing I really like about the Levo is that it takes the edge off (physically) from mountain biking. The trails in Salt Lake are usually straight up and then straight down. I can't help but think the ebike will save me from knee surgery or maybe a heart attack some day. If I push it hard on a regular bike I will cough for days. With the ebike I can easily get two rides in per day and I feel refreshed after a ride instead of beat down. My wife was able to ride two real mountain bike trails that she would never be able to ride without the Levo.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Drive trains are and will be different for higher powered ebikes. Guys are running 5-7 speed cogsets since you don't need a 50t bail out gear with that much more power. Thicker cogs, beefier chains, Internally geared hubs, more and thicker spokes, they're all coming. They'll be less like bikes with each new generation.

This ebike: Das Spitzing plus, R-Pedelec ? M1-Sporttechnik

Disengages the power when you shift so you don't destroy your cassettes, which until new hardware arrives is one way to deal with the problem.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah, we are already seeing tons of e-bike specific forks, drivetrains, etc. They will be heavier/beefier, which will mean you'll want to use/add more power, which will make the parts get beefier again...

-Walt


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

Giant Warp said:


> As a Levo owner I would like to say that increasing the power is a big mistake. If you like breaking your equipment then by all means jack up the power. The 11 sp cassette and chain will not take any more power. I rode like maybe 14 rides on a demo before I bought one. Thankfully I got to put one through it's paces before I bought. When things go wrong your looking at broken spokes, broken derailleur, and a broken chain.
> 
> My wife is not in biking shape. At first I thought my wife could ride the Levo and then I could ride a road bike beside her. The Levo can't keep up with a road bike on asphalt. I ended up riding a regular mountain bike on asphalt when my wife rides the Levo. In the dirt, however, the speed is satisfactory.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but that's because you are driving all the torque / power thru the chain with a Levo - like pretty much all mid drives that don't have a 2nd belt or similar. More power is fine if you've got a hub drive (I am riding 500 watts and it's the complete opposite. Shifting is smooth as silk, takes stress off of the chain, etc. It's awesome)

Its an easy fix really ...more power for a mid drive simply means the chain and components have to be sized properly for the torque.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

^^^ Hmm, sort of like motorcycle parts?


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

I think you'd be better off over at "thumpertalk" forum. Talk motorcycles all day long.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Gutch said:


> I think you'd be better off over at "thumpertalk" forum. Talk motorcycles all day long.


The same could be said of anyone that rides a "motorized" two wheeler.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Gutch said:


> I think you'd be better off over at "thumpertalk" forum. Talk motorcycles all day long.


 Just trying to make a point. Beefed up chain and components for a bike would be just like motorcycle parts. Fox forks makes all kind of bits and pieces.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

tiretracks said:


> The same could be said of anyone that rides a "motorized" two wheeler.


No exhaust pipe or throttle.


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## Gutch (Dec 17, 2010)

Also, check out my new Rip 9. 
"ELECTRONIC SHIFTING AND DROPPER" E-Awesomeness!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Gutch said:


> No exhaust pipe or throttle.


The exhaust pipe is in Northern NM.


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## portnuefpeddler (Jun 14, 2016)

Electric mountain bikes ? Wave of the future | Xtreme Idaho | idahostatejournal.com


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## Phil413 (Aug 9, 2016)

Winter is coming..... on an ebike. Bwahahahaha


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## voon (Nov 10, 2016)

Harryman said:


> Yeah, I think 20mph will stay


Germany/Switzerland etc have two classes. The 25kmh Pedelec and the 45kmh S-Pedelec. The former is considered a normal bicycle for anything. The latter is not equal to a motorcycle due to pedalling required, but otherwise falls under moped laws (helmet enforcement, mirror, license plate & insurance) and is not allowed on trails and in forests etc. I do not see that changing ever .. there's the usual opposition from the crowd not liking bikes in general where they are, ebike or not.



Harryman said:


> I'd also expect that like in Europe, people will buy 28mph Class 3 emtbs and pass them off as Class 1 since there's no way for anyone to tell. They're the exact same bikes as Class 1, just with different controller settings.


I wondered ... what's usually being done is not tuning per se, but just taking off the speed limit. I.e. you buy a little in between device, that will just not stop the engine in assisting over 25 kmh, it does not boost any power/torque etc below 25. I'm not sure if this is equal to a 45kmh pedelec, i.e. outputting the same power. But yes, this is completely invisible, but will probably get you in trouble in case of an accident. Also, it doesn't change anything on the trail or steep uphill, because noone is going over 25 kmh there anyway, it only helps in the flat for commuting.


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