# short girl



## Rigid17 (May 25, 2007)

hey there, 

i am currently riding a hard tail with a 11.5" frame and want to get a full suspension bike...i am only 4'10" so i am having trouble finding something under 13". Even the 11.5" is a bit hard for me to ride, dismounting and what not...any suggestions besides custom????

thanks


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*How long have you been riding?*

How long have you been riding?


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

At 4'10", getting a non-custom FS is going to be tough. 

- if you go custom, you will get a bike that is definitely right for you and will fit your requirements re stand over, etc. In most cases, it will cost a lot. 

- if you don't go custom, you will probably still spend a lot to get a high quality bike with 26" wheels, and you will still be fighting standover. Most manufacturers aren't going to make a bike that small - it just doesn't make sense from a volume/profit standpoint. The bikes you do find in that size will most likely be from small makers to have to charge a premium, which will then make custom more appealing. 

- the other possibility is that you might find a decent 24" FS. Scott makes one that isn't half bad, and once you upgrade a few parts it could be quite good. I have seen a lot of spoiled kids out on this model, all with big grins. I would suggest you do some customizing of the suspension tuning, and ditch the fork/rear shock, asap.

Here is what I would do if I wanted a really nice small bike. First, I would try to find someone who would build a super nice custom FS for 24" wheels. I would buy a nice 26" fork and have it shortened (or do it yourself - I have a friend with a 24" Superco with a shortened Revelation fork that works really well). Finally, I would get the rear suspension tuned for a smaller rider. Tires are limited, but they are not hard to get. All together, it would be a killer little machine and would cost a fair amount, but if you really love riding, it will be worth every penny to have a bike that fits. 

Actually, it sounds like a fun project!

Cheers,
C


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## callmeCrash (Aug 28, 2007)

Good things always come in small packages, if only they would make bikes that work well for us!! I am also a shortie 4"11 at best with a 27" inseam. 

For XC I ride a 2007 Specialized Stumpjumper and for downhillin' I ride a new Transition Syren. Check out the new pics on the Transition forum here.. just posted them. Both bikes I barely can clear the top tube, but I've just gotten used to riding it that way. What makes a difference is the distance from the seat to the handle bars... noticed a big difference in the stability and control I have when I switched to something shorter. The only other bike I sat on that might be smaller is a Santa Cruz Juliana in XS haven't ridden it but sat on one at the LBS and found it quite small. 

The other route would be getting a 24" bike with upgrades like Chucky suggested.. I have my eye on a 24" DJ bike at the LBS that felt perfect.. maybe if it goes on sale at the end of season... good luck...


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

I was going to mention the Syren and the Juliana as well, but frankly, I just don't think that they will solve the OPs problems in the best possible way. You would still be making do with an "almost" solution. When you get right down to it, if a person were 2 feet tall, no one would hesitate to recommend smaller wheels. If a person were 10 feet tall, folks would have no problem seeing the point of larger wheels. There has to be some sort of range between those extremes. 

Another example - I have seen a lot of women trying to ride wider and wider handlebars on their DH bikes. Now, there is nothing wrong with riding wider bars, but it doesn't make sense to have a 5'2" woman with narrow shoulders riding bars that seem wide to a 6'2" tall guy with broad shoulders - following standard body proportion assumptions, there would be a 12" difference in their wingspan, and the smaller rider could lose a lot of leverage.

Pictured below: Err's 24" Superco DJ bike. I have only ridden it around the pumptrack a few times, but it is really quite fun, feels totally normal, except that it is a bit smaller. Err (a frequent poster here) totally digs it - he isn't short, he just wanted a 24" DJ bike. It IS possible to build a great tiny bike with nice parts.


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## brg (Sep 7, 2004)

*I wouldn't go the 24" route*

I usually agree with Chucky on most things - but not this one.

I'm 4'10" with ~26.75 inch inseam.

All my mtn bikes have 26" wheels. I have a road bike with 650cc wheels and having wheels different from the "normal size" limits me on tires and tubes. I live in Boulder where selection of 650cc wheel items shouldn't be a problem - but it has been.

When I was looking for a FS mtn bike - I went custom. That was in 2005. I've never been able to fit on an off-the shelf mtn bike.

Untill last month all mtn bikes I have are custom.
1. Dean steel hardtail
2. Seven FS with 80mm front and back
3. Blacksheep rigid SingleSpeed

HOWEVER, I just demoed (and bought) a Specialized Safire. The sloping top tube allows for enough standover and it has 120mm travel front and back. If you don't want that much travel - Specialized has the Era FSR.

The Safire comes in 3 levels and 3 prices. I think you can get a Comp for ~$2000. I have the Expert.

Also, another thing I love about this bike is the Product Manager is a woman that is a kick a$$ rider with a mechanical engineering degree. these bikes are designed for women by women that RIDE. And they ride *very* well. Since they live the life - they know what works and doesn't work.

No - I'm not affliliated with Specialized - I just kinda stumbled into the Safire and had no intention of buying another bike but the thing just totally rocks. I wrote a review on my blog - confessions of a luddite.

edit...I forgot to mention - Yeti makes a XXS full suspension. I saw the demo trailer in Breckenridge so I tried it. I rode it in a parking lot (over curbs and such) and it has great standover and cockpit felt pretty good. I had more standover on the Yeti than I do on the Safire. So I think there are FINALLY more options then there were 3 years ago when I bought my FS.

good luck!


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

How about a Titus ML-1? Maybe it's just because I love the mL, but the XS is similar in size to the Juliana, maybe a bit longer on the top tube but with lower standover height, at least acording to Titus and Santa Cruz sites.


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## Ruckusgti (Oct 10, 2007)

Depending on how soon you're looking to buy, i think more '09's will be coming out with a women rider in mind, maybe wait a little and see what comes out.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Fair enough - BRG does have a lot more experience as a 4'10" rider than I do. 

BRG - how do your custom 26" bikes address the issue of minimum fork height? If a rider wants a true XC position with handlebars below saddle level, how do you achieve that with a 26in wheel and an 80mm fork when you are only 4'10" tall? Your head tube can only get so short. You can get a drop stem, but at a certain point, even that option has limits. And then what do you do when you want to run something with more travel? How would you deal with 120mm of travel on a 26" bike at your height (though at that point you don't need an xc position)? I find that with bigger forks, such as my Pike on my 5" trail bike, I have limited position options, and I am 5'6"-ish.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

If you were looking for a DH type bike - the Corsair König has a 26.7" standover. Not a trail bike, no front der. Super fun, I have been dropping all sorts of new things on this bike - really stable and flickable.


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## CougarTrek (Jan 27, 2007)

4'11" here.

I, personally, don't want to do 24" wheels. Call that vanity and wanting to be "normal" but going to smaller wheels just leaves a bad taste in my mouth for little apparent good reason (managed to find a roadie with 700cc wheels as well and I LOVE it).

The smallest two full suspension rigs (non-custom) I've heard about are the Titus Racer X that comes in XXS and the Rocky Mountain ETSX women's model (I think it's the ETSX?). I haven't been able to ride either unfortunately.

I'm currently just dealing with riding a bike that's too big for me. Sucky problem to have, but I've got to get someone to buy the thing or learn to live with it as I don't have the kind of cash some people have lying around for full custom rigs. (really wish I did!!!)


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

CougarTrek said:


> I, personally, don't want to do 24" wheels. Call that vanity and wanting to be "normal" but going to smaller wheels just leaves a bad taste in my mouth for little apparent good reason


Aren't you cutting off your nose to spite your face? There is a pretty solid agreement here in the WL that getting a properly sized bike enables you to ride better. This is why so many of us ride WSD bikes / little bikes, etc. Sure, I could get onto an 18" MTB frame, but I know that having good standover and toptube length helps me to ride more challenging terrain and to improve my skills so I choose to ride something smaller.

Isn't "normal" riding a bike that fits rather than struggling to make a pair of size 46 shoes fit when you really ought to be wearing size 37?

I could see that if there were no fork, tire or wheel options out there that a 24" bike would be problematic, but there are options out there, so why put yourself at a disadvantage?

OMG, a 24" bike would wheelie and manual like nobody's business...


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## Dirty D (Nov 12, 2004)

I usually never offer up advice online, but reading your above post makes one bike come to mind that I think you'd be a good candidate for, which is an XS Knolly Endorphin. It is A LOT more versatile since you can run a front derailleur, and run a fork in the range of 130-160mm.

With the 4x4 linkage the bike has very low standover, so you can slam the seatpost for the steeps and you can still get enough seatpost extension on the climbs.

The price is a bit higher perhaps then some of the other frames that other peeps mentioned but the craftsmanship/details is second to none with a top notch finish from Spectrum. The bike rides really well, and the CS provided by Knolly is exceptional as well.

Just my two cents...but I'd really give this bike a serious look if you plan on keeping this bike for a long time, want something with versatility that you can build up with beefier parts depending on what terrain you'll be riding or as your skills grow.

D

Some good reading on Knolly's website:

http://knollybikes.com/frames/small/

http://knollybikes.com/frames/endorphin/specifications-geometry.aspx


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## pixy (Nov 8, 2005)

rzozaya1969 said:


> How about a Titus ML-1? Maybe it's just because I love the mL, but the XS is similar in size to the Juliana, maybe a bit longer on the top tube but with lower standover height, at least acording to Titus and Santa Cruz sites.


The Titus racer-x comes in XXS also.


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## CougarTrek (Jan 27, 2007)

chuky said:


> Aren't you cutting off your nose to spite your face? There is a pretty solid agreement here in the WL that getting a properly sized bike enables you to ride better. This is why so many of us ride WSD bikes / little bikes, etc. Sure, I could get onto an 18" MTB frame, but I know that having good standover and toptube length helps me to ride more challenging terrain and to improve my skills so I choose to ride something smaller.
> 
> Isn't "normal" riding a bike that fits rather than struggling to make a pair of size 46 shoes fit when you really ought to be wearing size 37?
> 
> ...


No, I'm not cutting of my nose to spite my face. I have more reasons than vanity for not riding 24" wheels. There should be no reason (sans supply and demand) why a 26" bike can't fit me. I'm not so hard core into racing that I need my bars 5 inches below my saddle, and even on my 26" bike with a "long" 100mm fork (read tall axel to crown for it's travel) my bars are level with my seat with a normal stem...when I find an appropriate stem that I can flip for negative rise I will try that and have bars 1 or 2 inches below my saddle. Right where they "should" be.

So what's this big advantage of 24" wheels? Can't think of one that would outweigh all the disadvantages of them...which includes availability and selection of parts so don't pretend that's not an issue.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Venting is totally understandable, but I would rather explore solutions - it is way more interesting.

Here is something you said 4 days ago, which indicates that you might be frustrated with 26" bikes:



CougarTrek said:


> I'm so darn frustrated with bikes right now I could hurl my 2000 dollar full suspension bike off the top of a highrise building.
> 
> Standover is not your friend, and I'm not talking about having the recommended clearance, I'm talking about being able to even think about standing over the bike without it being at a 45 degree angle with the ground *sigh*. Reach isn't your friend either, and in general I'm 100% convinced I've never ridden a mountain bike that properly fits me and probably never will.


There are lots of reasons a 26" bike might not fit you, supply and demand being one of the most important, the constant increase in standard fork height being another. 100mm is on the short end of the scale these days.

Primary advantage to a 24" wheel would be having all frame proportions better suited to your size, not just those that make it so you can climb on and off the bike and reach the handle bars. This would not only solve your stand over and reach issues, but it would have other bonus features.

Here is an example: Can you execute a true* manual? If not, have you asked yourself why? Shorter chainstays relative to your size would make this essential MTB skill much easier. Shorter chainstays would also facilitate learning a true bunny hop (non-clipless assisted, can be executed at any speed). I find it much easier to manual a 26er bike as compared to my 29er, because of the smaller wheel size and chainstay length. Of my 26er bikes, I find the one with the shortest chainstays to be the easiest. I found the 24" bike that I have ridden to be even easier.

Now, anyone could eventually learn to manual a 29er, but my (much taller than me) husband does find it easier to leverage the 29er than I do. From a pure skills/maneuverability standpoint, a smaller bike will allow you to leverage more as a small rider. With a 26" bike, you could only make the chainstays so short before you ran out of room.

Other proportions could be changed to create similar advantages - you would have more options as to seat angle, wheelbase, etc. All of this would make for a much more maneuverable bike for a smaller person.

Now there are disadvantages. A shorter wheelbase and smaller wheel won't roll over stuff as well as larger wheelbase/wheel combo. However, the increased ability to maneuver more than makes up for the 29" to 26" disadvantage, and I would imagine that the 26" to 24" experience is similar, especially for smaller riders producing fewer watts. The lighter, smaller bike would be an advantage in most cases.

Cheers,
C

*A true manual:


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Here is an XS HT Jamis Durango*

It shows a Jett C of about 80mm travel. We threw this under an 11 year old (4' 10", 75 lbs.) who was struggling with a small Rockhopper (31 lbs) and it made him pretty happy. The Durango is all XT and weighs 6 lbs less. I just show this to illustrate the radically sloping top tub on a big this size with 26 inch wheels. He got off it just fine but he was very agile and skilled. 
More travel would be problematic at this size range. The pics:

1) the XS Durango.
2) boy in group shot against the Durango.(girl in back is wearing a jersey donated by Chuky)
3) boy in green shirt on S rockhopper.
4) boy in orange shirt riding XS Durango.

By the way the bike is a composite from donations from MTBR NorCal folk. Frame/cranks/F der/headset; East Bay Rich, Wheels/XT RDer: Dan'ger, Shock: Solano Avenue Cyclery. All rubber/cables/ders:misc donors, Stems,seat/pedals/grips;EC Racing. Aclan just donated a Dual Air SID and, at the risk of throwing off the geometry it would be a nice addition and take over a pound off the bike.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Yeay! I love seeing the kids in the Kenda clothes - it is a real treat for me. I think I am down to just one Kenda jersey in the lycra closet now, which I will hang on to for sentimental reasons. Gotta do something to remember all that racing...

I think I am less tempted to get kids onto fit-specific bikes. While they would experience the same advantages that any smaller rider does, they tend to grow so quickly that you can't keep them in equipment. An adult is a different issue, though - they get to choose when to splurge.

Same thing applies to full suspension, IMO. I think it is better for kids to learn basic skills on simpler bikes, whereas adults get to judge their own skills and readiness...


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## Berkeley Mike (Jan 13, 2004)

*Not to hijack this thread...*

but fit at all ages does wonders. The 24 inch bike has a very short window of utility for a child but I encourage it. It is the same with small 26 inchers as this is when kids grow so very fast. The challenge is economic. We managed it by staying in contact with cycling community who understands how to value bikes old and new and use them appropriately. I always tell people that the bike they buy for their child, if they help them take care of it, will have resale value which will go towards the next bike.
My son had a used 24. We bought a new small Trek 4300 at auction for his next bike which was well cared for and sold it to cycling friends to buy the medium Rockhopper (17). When he started racing last year at 14 he was just outgrowing his frame and we bought the same bike, a large rockhopper (19) at a close-out and swapped the parts as we had upgraded. We sold the 17 with all new components for $100 less than we paid for the large to a friend. Over a 5-year period we've been through 4 bikes. Now, at 15, Miguel needs a new level of bike as he has grown a bit more and will compete as a JV but if his sense of purpose stays firm we will splurge. He is working for a custom bike and wheel builder now. Splurge could be pretty scary. Lynsky has been uttered and Rohloff and carbon fiber and inverted shocks...lord save me.


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## mbmojo (Aug 9, 2004)

My sister in law is 4' 11" and rides an XS Cannondale Prophet though I don't think they make them that small anymore. I think the Yeti 575 is available small enough and Titus, Santa Cruz, Pivot, Specialized, and Trek all make bikes that should fit you.

I'm assuming you realize you can't sit on the saddle and have your feet touch the ground. Think of it this way... with you stitting on the saddle with a pedal all the way down and the suspension fully bottomed out, the pedal still cannot be low enough to touch the ground, so you're going to be up in the air a bit.

For getting on the bike, just lean it over towards you and you should have no problem throwing a leg over the top bar (my revelation since I'm also inseam challenged).


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

mbmojo said:


> I'm assuming you realize you can't sit on the saddle and have your feet touch the ground.


IT is a good point, but I think that everyone participating in this conversation is far more advanced than that.

Cheers,
C


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## CougarTrek (Jan 27, 2007)

chuky said:


> Venting is totally understandable, but I would rather explore solutions - it is way more interesting.
> 
> Here is something you said 4 days ago, which indicates that you might be frustrated with 26" bikes:
> 
> ...


I'm frustrated with *A* 26" wheeled bike. ONE single bike. It happens to be a Cannondale Rush in a size small. If you compare this bike to similar bikes (even in smalls, discounting XS frames) you'll find it has one of the longest effective top tubes available (22.6") and I've also come to learn that the Lefty fork (which I actually *LOVE*) is one of the longest (axel to crown) for the travel range.

Live and learn.

Of all the things that frustrate me with the bike (which I actually *might* be able to make fit me; it's not like it's painful to ride it) the 26" wheels have NEVER ONCE entered my mind as part of the problem. The fact that the bike is overall too long to manuever and climb is my chief complaint...this *IS* a function of wheelbase, but there are plenty of 26" bikes with significantly shorter wheelbases.

Again, live and learn.

I made an impulsive purchase and it wasn't what I expected. Mistake that I'm paying a painful lesson for.

Unfortunately the other bikes I tested had me sitting straight up like I was on a cruiser... in hindsight I should have made them swap the stems and bars for me, but apparently I'm a freak of nature that has shorter than heck legs and a crazy long torso. Sitting nearly straight up on a bike like that makes my back hurt despite the fact that the bike is more maneuverable. At this point it appears "damned if you do and damned if you don't" and I don't think it's at all an issue that wheels will fix.

I ride a 700cc road bike and it's the best most comfortable bike I've ever ridden. I got lucky and it fits like a glove straight from the factory (gotta love that adjustable stem that let me get a negative rise). I wouldn't change a thing...and that's on 700cc tires that I "shouldn't" be able to comfortably and effectively ride.... It's got great maneuverability and great "get up and go" even with my tiny legs pushing the 700cc wheels that should somehow be putting me at a disadvantage (the whole 29 to 26" debate that you are here trying to apply to 24" vs. 26"...well, if I had to answer you right now I'd say I'd rather ride a 29er because the roadie is amazing, but I'm smart enough to know that wheels aren't everything and I'd probably be unhappy pushing 29" mountain wheels in dirt).

But I'd rather not continue to hijack this thread. Disagree with me all you want; you are entitled to your opinions and I appreciate the input. It doesn't seem I'm the only tiny person on this thread that doesn't want to go to a 24" wheeled bike...

However, if you (or anyone) can find me a bike with 24" tires that has a QUALITY fox/rockshox fork, RP2 or similar rear shock, quality disk brakes, a real lightweight smartly designed frame, and quality components that was not designed to be used for a year or two and then outgrown and I will be happy to DEMO it next to a comparable 26" bike.

1) I don't think you can find said bike above without me having to custom make it...Sorry, I don't have the $$$, time, or patience.
2) If you find it I suspect I'll still prefer the 26" bike do the inherent disadvantages of smaller wheels, but I'll be willing to eat my words.


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## chuky (Apr 3, 2005)

Yeah, the RUSH is huge. I wouldn't ride one myself, specifically because of the Lefty issue. 

This is a problem for lots of people right? Figuring out the solution online creates a resource for every woman who bothers to search this website. Exploring the root causes of this issue helps people to understand what choices they might have to make. Additionally, there are a ton of industry folks on this site, myself included. It isn't uncommon for an idea to get bounced around here and make it into conversations and meetings later. That high-quality 24" bike? Could easily happen if the companies that read this site feel like people are open-minded enough to try them. It wasn't all that long ago that no one saw a market for women's saddles, either.


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## Garlock (Jul 9, 2008)

Why not just get a kid sized bike?
And, how old are you OP?


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## brg (Sep 7, 2004)

chuky said:


> BRG - how do your custom 26" bikes address the issue of minimum fork height? If a rider wants a true XC position with handlebars below saddle level, how do you achieve that with a 26in wheel and an 80mm fork when you are only 4'10" tall? .


You can see pics on this thread of how my Seven FS w/80mm of travel was setup. Seven did a great job getting a bike to fit me (and I had a water bottle cage too!)

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=94917

I raced a couple of seasons on this bike.

Then I started exclusively racing SS.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=276518

As you can see from the pix - it's not true racing position but since there is so much standing and climbing on the SS on Colorado race courses that wasn't an issue for me. I'm a decent rider and didn't do so bad racing SS (esp. considering the other girls were typically 15 years younger that me)



chuky said:


> And then what do you do when you want to run something with more travel? How would you deal with 120mm of travel on a 26" bike at your height (though at that point you don't need an xc position)? I find that with bigger forks, such as my Pike on my 5" trail bike, I have limited position options, and I am 5'6"-ish.


I had given up on the idea I'd ever be able to ride a longer travel bike. I just figured I'd up my skills and deal with not having much travel. I wrote about that subject in this blog post. I must say I'm pretty stoked I can clean 3/4 of the entrance to Horsetheif on my hardtail with 63mm of front travel.(I balked at the big drops at the bottom)

http://brginredsidis.blogspot.com/2008/05/does-size-matter.html

However as I mentioned earlier - I recently stumbled upon and bought a Safire mentioned in this blog post.

This is the first time EVER I've been able to fit on an off-the-shelf bike. I must say after riding so long with rigid forks or short travel forks - it feels like I'm cheating on the technical stuff. But it is a big time blast. oh and I almost forgot to mention the Safire wheelbase is a whopping 5" longer than my hardtail. I was a decent descender before but now my descending has gone through the roof! yipppeeee!!!

Due to the technical style of riding I like to do and the fact that I'm confident that tire selection would be a *big limiting factor* for me - i wouldn't consider the 24" wheel route. But I've been riding for 6+ seasons and I know what works for me.

As it is - I ride ALL my bikes (FS, HT, SS) - it just depends on what i'm in the mood for. :thumbsup:

happy riding!


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## Rigid17 (May 25, 2007)

wow...sorry was on vacay...and searching out this info for a friend...

thanks for all the great info, i am hoping we'll come up with something after this!


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