# fox green 10wt, looking for substitute



## desertrat423 (May 3, 2009)

well after spending about an hour looking through this forum and a few others including the pvdwiki i still cant find a solid answer to what brand and wt fluid is the GREEN 10wt fox fork fluid.

Some have said it is the silkolene 10 wt maintain fork oil while fox 10 wt red is silkolene pro rsf.

The problem is the silkolene 10wt fork oil has a kinematic viscosity of 34.9 cst @ 40c and 7.05 cst @ 100c.

when i found a picture of the fox green 10wt the specs are 47 cst @40c and 11.7 cst @100c, the bottle is clearly a torco bottle but after spending some time on the torco website i couldnt find any fluid that matches. The specs for the green are almost the same as the specs for the new red fox 10wt (silkolene pro rsf). The old fox 7wt was the same as torco rsf 31.82 cst @40c and 9.57 cst @ 100c. this is quite a change compared to the new green.

is this a old pic ? does anyone have a bottle of fox 10wt green and can share the viscosity numbers on the front. maybe im just being way to picky and/or cheap and should just buy the fox fluid and be done but now i just want to know.


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

The Green 10wt is spec'd where the old Fox 7wt was used, the spec's you gave are that of the Red 10wt (Silkolene Pro RSF 10wt) so I have to believe that is an error in the label. As far as I can tell, the new Green 10wt appears to still be Torco RSF Medium.


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## desertrat423 (May 3, 2009)

the specs of the silkolene pro rsf 10 wt are 47.4 cst @40c and 13.69 cst @100c so not exactly the same as what the label on the fox green 10 wt shows but it is the same as the fox red 10wt.
But as you said i suspect that the label for the fox green may be a misprint as the bottle in the pic is clearly a torco bottle.

i think i just have to much free time on my hands right now


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Is @100c important at all?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

What is important is how well the fluid promotes free movement of the sliding parts and minimizes stiction problems.

I know from years of using Silkolene Pro RSF in bicycle and other applications it has terrible sliding performance, it is however one of the better damper fluids.

Torco on the other hand has very good friction reducing performance with excellent damping also.

Seems Fox, chose a worthy fluid for each specific application.

FWIW, you may even consider running Mobil 1 0/20 wt engine oil in the outer chambers.

PK


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## denjen (Jan 30, 2004)

PMK said:


> What is important is how well the fluid promotes free movement of the sliding parts and minimizes stiction problems.
> 
> I know from years of using Silkolene Pro RSF in bicycle and other applications it has terrible sliding performance, it is however one of the better damper fluids.
> 
> ...


Thats probably the best option. When I switched my seals out to Enduro seals they suggested using fork oil for dampening and a synthetic motor oil for the lube. They say the motor oil is thicker and clings to parts better to keep everything sliding.


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## 00sable (Oct 28, 2009)

*Need advice too*



denjen said:


> Thats probably the best option. When I switched my seals out to Enduro seals they suggested using fork oil for dampening and a synthetic motor oil for the lube. They say the motor oil is thicker and clings to parts better to keep everything sliding.


About to change the fluids and seals in mine, does the motor oil take the place of the pillow packs that enduro seals offer?


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## denjen (Jan 30, 2004)

00sable said:


> About to change the fluids and seals in mine, does the motor oil take the place of the pillow packs that enduro seals offer?


Not sure what pillow packs you are talking about. Can you post a link to the directions saying to use them.

When I replaced the seals on my Pike I simply used synthetic motor oil instead of fork oil for the lube in the outer legs.

See step 31
http://www.enduroforkseals.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/pike_dual_air3.pdf


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

denjen said:


> When I replaced the seals on my Pike I simply used synthetic motor oil instead of fork oil for the lube in the outer legs.


Is there a problem if some of it get mixed up with suspension oil - traces of it getting past seals from the top.


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## 00sable (Oct 28, 2009)

denjen said:


> Not sure what pillow packs you are talking about. Can you post a link to the directions saying to use them.
> 
> When I replaced the seals on my Pike I simply used synthetic motor oil instead of fork oil for the lube in the outer legs.
> 
> ...


http://enduroforkseals.com/id17.html
Scroll down. Air Piston lube. It calls for 5cc in the top of some Fox forks


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## desertrat423 (May 3, 2009)

The pilloW pack is the same as the 5cc blue packs of fox float fluid. I can't look it up right now but I'm pretty sure that goes in the top of the air spring side


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## denjen (Jan 30, 2004)

Curmy said:


> Is there a problem if some of it get mixed up with suspension oil - traces of it getting past seals from the top.


With a sealed cartridge fork like my Pike, it is pretty much impossible for the dampening and lube oils to get mixed. If there is a seal that is leaking so bad that that some of the dampening oil gets in the lube oil you have bigger things to worry about than the two mixing.


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## denjen (Jan 30, 2004)

00sable said:


> http://enduroforkseals.com/id17.html
> Scroll down. Air Piston lube. It calls for 5cc in the top of some Fox forks


I would only use fork oil or the pillow pack for inside of the damper and the and air chambers. I don't know how motor oil would react with the o rings.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

denjen said:


> I would only use fork oil or the pillow pack for inside of the damper and the and air chambers. I don't know how motor oil would react with the o rings.


I do know that motor oil will not have any detrimental concerns.

I do like Fox Float fluid for the air chambers, it has very good cling and climb. For years prior to this stuff being available, I tried many different products. One of the best, and right there with Fox Float is Mobil 1 gear lube.

Sometimes the simplest changes, like the brand of fluid can see big gains in performance.

This very true when discussing high VI fluids used in low VI applications.

We have similar problems of fluids and compatibility with the motorcycles. Some fluids are very short lived and work well for that time frame, others have much better longevity with great performance. As an example for years I have run Mobil 1 ATF in my KTM forks, it also works very well in the bicycles.

Ironically, for Magura brakes that do not use DOT fluid, I chuckle when folks head to the drug store for mineral oil. Petroleum based products are what they come with as new. To get better performance, I have most recently run Showa SS7 fluid.

You have to keep raising the bar, otherwise you have no advantage from your equipment compared to the next guy.

Change the fluid often in both ends of the bikes, and very often if you have hydraulic brakes, it does make a difference.

PK


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## Amdi (Oct 4, 2007)

Hello guys,

Hope you can help me out of this one.

I ordered one of these from CRC (in 10w)
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=54441

And I just recieved this (in 5w)
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=36404

I'm using it instead of the Fox Green 10wt. (In the lower legs on my Fox FIT RLC 100mm 2010)

I found a list that says the following:

Shell advance fork 5 33.05 (@40C)	7.09(@100C)

Silkolene pro RSF 10wt 47.36(@40C)	13.69(@100C)

On top of the Shell oil is a fine little sticker (put on by CRC) that says:

"Marzocchi Silkolene Synthetic Suspension Fork Oil 10W"

Anyone tried the shell oil in the mentioned fork? Probably sending it back. Typical of CRC to list things as "in stock" when not... :/


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## zippy895 (May 4, 2008)

FOX PILLOW PACK====MOBIL 1 75W90.synthetic gear oil


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

*...and still no solid answer.*



desertrat423 said:


> well after spending about an hour looking through this forum and a few others including the pvdwiki i still cant find a solid answer to what brand and wt fluid is the GREEN 10wt fox fork fluid.
> 
> Some have said it is the silkolene 10 wt maintain fork oil while fox 10 wt red is silkolene pro rsf.
> 
> ...


 I've been looking into this also for my 2009 36 TALAS. I noticed a change on the fox service site, at first they suggested Fox red 10 wt oil in the damper and the legs, now they suggest 10wt red in the damper and 10wt green in the legs.
I find thinner wt fluid works better in my damper, I am mixing Red Line for that. The legs get Mobile 0w or 2w 30. I'm considering going thicker on that as my fork came with sloppy bushings.
I couldn't find anything on the green 10wt fox. It's in a Torco bottle but the info from the Torco website has both the RSF and RFF fluids as red.I did notice there is light and medium of the RSF and 5 or 6 grades of the RFF.

I'm curious!


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## deoreo (Aug 26, 2005)

I'm curious about this as well.
I have a 2011 Fox Float 160 RLC on the way, and I was going to check/replace
the bath oil and Float Fluid on top of the air piston.

In my mind, motor oil *seems* like a good idea for the bath oil.
I wish some of the suspension heavy hitters would comment on this - any reason not to use motor oil?
Since the Fox green is 10wt should I stick to a synthetic 10W-40 motor oil, or would a 0W-50 be better?


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## 00sable (Oct 28, 2009)

No help to fermenter or deoreo but to anyone else changing fluids on the cheap. I used 10 wt Maxima fork fluid from a local moto shop. It seems to be working fine in an F-120 and F-100 Fox forks. Got the seals and pillow packs from Fox.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

deoreo said:


> I wish some of the suspension heavy hitters would comment on this - any reason not to use motor oil?
> Since the Fox green is 10wt should I stick to a synthetic 10W-40 motor oil, or would a 0W-50 be better?


A lot of people here use it with good results, myself included. Enduro recommends it. Additionally, there's really no way it can harm your fork.

The weight of the bath oil doesn't matter much since it's not being used for damping.


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## deoreo (Aug 26, 2005)

^^ cool, that's kinda what I figured.


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## crazyjeys (Jul 2, 2007)

is it possible to use the 10wt fox red on the lower legs of the fork? or it will harm something?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Amdi said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> Hope you can help me out of this one.
> 
> ...


FWIW, I had heard that early Marzocchi forks were delivered with Shell Advance. These were the Italian made forks.

Shell Advance has never been available in the US, as a substitute they went with Golden Spectro.

I would not be to worked up about the Shell, should be a very capable product.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

bad mechanic said:


> A lot of people here use it with good results, myself included. Enduro recommends it. Additionally, there's really no way it can harm your fork.
> 
> The weight of the bath oil doesn't matter much since it's not being used for damping.


Yes and no. If the bath has any possibility of mixing with cartridge fluid then it's not so good. This is possible on cartridges that use some form of hydraulic bottoming control on the cartridge gland or sealhead. These hydraulic bottoming controls have various names depending upon who made the fork.

Upon bottoming some times it is possible to force fluid past the seal and inject it into the cartridge unit.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

crazyjeys said:


> is it possible to use the 10wt fox red on the lower legs of the fork? or it will harm something?


Silkolene Pro RSF is not the most slippery stuff, but great for damping. Slippery is best for lower legs.

PK


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## crazyjeys (Jul 2, 2007)

PMK said:


> Silkolene Pro RSF is not the most slippery stuff, but great for damping. Slippery is best for lower legs.
> 
> PK


thanks for the clarification! :thumbsup:


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## Iliades (Nov 5, 2010)

I've used the Spectro fluid and Honda suspension fluid from the motorcycle shop in my Fox F100 and RL120, both work fine.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

I'm beginning to wonder if thier green oil is green at all. Perhaps they just changed the label (and the [email protected] is a misprint) and are calling it green to match the oil chart they have online. Could the oil still be red?
They now have it down to 3 forks needing the old 7 wt, as indicated in yellow on the charts.
I'm realy only looking into this 'cause wondering why would they change the recommended oil from a cSt of 31.82 to 47.00? I think that would have a very noticable affect on the damping in these forks.

I changed the oil in my FIT cart from 47.36 to about 37. It was very noticable.


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## crazyjeys (Jul 2, 2007)

how hard is it to change the oil in the fit cart? is it home servicable?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

For twin chamber type forks, the outer chambers work best with some type of medium viscosity but most slippery fluid. A low VI is fine since the telescopic doesn't work that hard, except for bottoming control if any.

In regards to bottoming control in the outers, this is when it is important to maintain a viscosity close to oem specs, unless you are way outside the "average" rider weight.

As for the damper cartridge, you can move the fluid viscosity all over the place trying to accomplish a poor mans revalve. Lighter riders will likely prefer, but not always, a lesser viscosity while heavier riders will be weighted towards a more viscous fluid.

I like Silkolene Pro RSF as a damper fluid and have for many years. It is very good in published ratings. What is not mentioned is that it tends to build a sticky coating when exposed to air. It also has the ability to swell seals. The things that make it good for a damper fluid with a high VI, also make it not so good for outer chambers.

Overall it's about repeatable results once a good setting is found. If you do your own work, find a fluid of choice, Pro Honda Showa, Golden Spectro, Bel-Ray, Torco, Maxima, Fox, Ohlins, Motorex, Pro Circuit, Race Tech, Factory Connection, Enzo, Kayaba, or any not mentioned including the Mobil 1 ATF and stick with it unless there is reason to change.

FWIW, I have used Mobil 1 ATF with excellent results for many years in open style forks. For twin chamber type cartridge forks my preference would be Silkolene Pro RSF. For lower leg fluid, if the viscosity matches the Mobil 1 ATF then I tend to use that, otherwise a good quality open type (non cartridge) fork oil with proper viscosity.

Honestly this is not worth overthinking. If you are the type of person that is warranty paranoid, then you are better off spending the extra money for oem fluids.

Regardless, it's about proper operations and repeatable results.

I would also be cautious of any shops or tuners that custom blend fluid. This almost always locks you in to sending it back.

PK


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

PMK said:


> For twin chamber type forks, the outer chambers work best with some type of medium viscosity but most slippery fluid. A low VI is fine since the telescopic doesn't work that hard, except for bottoming control if any.
> 
> In regards to bottoming control in the outers, this is when it is important to maintain a viscosity close to oem specs, unless you are way outside the "average" rider weight.
> 
> ...


 Thanks PK and a good response. I went thinner in my fit cart to allow more range of my rebound ajustment. With stock oil I only was 2-4 clicks in hot weather and cold weather sometimes it was too slow all the way open. Now I run 2-6 clicks cold to hot.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

crazyjeys said:


> how hard is it to change the oil in the fit cart? is it home servicable?


 Can be a bit delicate. You need some vice jaws to clamp the assembly, possibly a few times while working on it. Fox has the procedure in "consumer help'. Fox can sell the jaws and they are expensive(availability?) . I had a friend make mine.

As long as you have not displaced the bladder and dumped the fluid into the leg bath it should last a long time. I had problems with the bladder and a bad valve body inside the cart so that is why I was in there.

The newer fit carts are inverted with the bladder on top. I don't know if they are easier.


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## Spartacus Rex (Dec 18, 2006)

I have an older Fox32 that still requires 7wt in the lowers. The bike shop I got the seals/wiper kit from doesnt carry that anymore and sold me FinishLine 7.5wt instead. Anyone have any experience with this brand?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Spartacus Rex said:


> I have an older Fox32 that still requires 7wt in the lowers. The bike shop I got the seals/wiper kit from doesnt carry that anymore and sold me FinishLine 7.5wt instead. Anyone have any experience with this brand?


If you have not opened the fluid and can return it I would. All my experience with Finishline fluids found them to foam badly and not release the bubbles quickly.

Truth be told, Mobil 1 ATF will work a lot better, last longer, and per oz of fluid be a fraction of the cost. It will even outperform many specific fork fluids.

PK


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## Iliades (Nov 5, 2010)

I had a fork that called for 7 wt. I ran 7.5 Spectro and it was fine


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

fermenter said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if thier green oil is green at all. Perhaps they just changed the label (and the [email protected] is a misprint) and are calling it green to match the oil chart they have online. Could the oil still be red?
> They now have it down to 3 forks needing the old 7 wt, as indicated in yellow on the charts.
> I'm realy only looking into this 'cause wondering why would they change the recommended oil from a cSt of 31.82 to 47.00? I think that would have a very noticable affect on the damping in these forks.
> 
> I changed the oil in my FIT cart from 47.36 to about 37. It was very noticable.


 I think I could be wrong about Fox changing the weight of oil in the chart at least for the forks that don't have the FIT cart. I think they were allways 10 wt. The bath oil change for the FIT cart forks will not change damping.
I have confirmed the new "green" 10 wt oil is a Torco product and is indeed green colored.
I could not find any Torco item on thier website that was a cSt of [email protected] and green.

So here is what we have, most people agree on the first two:
Fox 7 wt. fork oil: Torco RSF Med. cSt 31.82 @40c
Fox Red 10 wt. fork oil: Silkolene Pro RSF 10wt. cSt 47.36 @40c (FIT Dampers)
Fox Green 10 wt. fork oil: Torco ??? (Fox label) cSt [email protected] (Non FIT forks and leg oil bath FIT forks)
Cheers!


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## Nitric (Nov 4, 2009)

*Green Fox Oil*

Green Fox Oil is Silkolene Fork Oil 10wt whihc is different to Red Fox 10wt = Silkolene Pro RSF..... 
hope this help you


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

Nitric said:


> Green Fox Oil is Silkolene Fork Oil 10wt whihc is different to Red Fox 10wt = Silkolene Pro RSF.....
> hope this help you


 Fox told me it was a Torco product..........doesn't make it true though.


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## 434Mtbiker (May 18, 2009)

I got the same answer on the phone with Fox, that the Green 10 wt is some Torco product. In the end, I went to my LBS and for all of 3 bucks (they tried to give it to me for free but they need to at least not loose money on me), I got 80 ml (30 in each leg + spillage extra) of Fox green in a glass jar, went home, changed oil from the old (what was fox red, from factory 2010), to the new green. definitely smoother sliding. I found my solution: it's my rock star LBS. Twice a year, run down and grab some fluid and get the job done fast and no fuss.


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## Udi (Jan 25, 2008)

Has anyone figured out what the Fox Green fluid is yet?

I have the stuff available to me but want to confirm what it is for future reference. Fox have put in some time and testing and concluded this fluid makes a significant difference to sliding friction.

It is definitely green in colour, and comes in a rebadged torco bottle.
But it isn't Torco RFF or RSF (unless they got a custom fluid colour / dye) because they are all either light red (All RFF), red (RSF Medium), or purple (RSF Light).

So what is it?

PMK - Interesting reading your posts about fluids and friction. I too use Silkolene Pro RSF religiously in dampers, and have always suspected it made for sticky bushings (when used as semi bath lube) but it's good to hear it confirmed.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I have suddenly encountered a used *2011 Fox F32 Open Bath RL* fork in my practice (I do lots of Manitou and Rock Shox, but Fox forks are rare in our locality). From factory, it had no semi-bath oil in spring leg. As I don't have any Fox oils on hand (and unlikely to find them anytime soon), I was going to use the following oils here:


Mobil 1 5W-30 synthetic engine oil for spring leg semi-bath,
Stendec Crystal Fork Fluid 20W for air piston (kept using it for years for this purpose, should have switched to gear oil much earlier),
Stendec Crystal Fork Fluid 10W for open bath damper.

But fortunately I have found this thread (and several others like it, but older), and have reconsidered oils choice as follows:


Mobil 1 ATF for spring leg semi-bath (just so as to get sliding consistent across legs),
Mobil 1 synthetic gear oil for air piston,
Mobil 1 ATF for open bath damper.

Going to hit automotive stores today looking for these.


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

ATF eats seals, NOT recommended (been there, done that). Syn gear oil does work great for the air piston lube. Stick with syn motor oil for splash oil (try a search - tons of info on this)!

Have FUN!

G MAN


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Gman086 said:


> Stick with syn motor oil for splash oil


That's what I usually do. But this fork has an open bath damper, I don't remember reading about motor oil being successfully used for that.



Gman086 said:


> ATF eats seals, NOT recommended (been there, done that).


Daaaamn. I have *just* poured it in there. :madman:



Gman086 said:


> Syn gear oil does work great for the air piston lube.


I have not found it in my today's trip to the auto stores. :eekster: I'm substituting it with Mobil 1 10W-60 synthetic motor oil..

PS.
Mobil ATF SHC is the stuff I used. It claims "Compatible with mineral ATF fluids and all common seal materials", and claimed physical properties are very close to what is listed here (PVD wiki).


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

Gman086 said:


> ATF eats seals, NOT recommended (been there, done that). Syn gear oil does work great for the air piston lube. Stick with syn motor oil for splash oil (try a search - tons of info on this)!
> 
> Have FUN!
> 
> G MAN


Mobil 1 ATF will NOT eat your seals.

Synthetic gear oil is what you want for the air chamber. If you can't find it at the car store (which you should be able to since it's very frequently used in differentials), then you should be able to find it in your local motorcycle shop.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

bad mechanic,
what is the difference, that matters for air piston, between a good gear oil and a good motor oil, besides viscosity?


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

Just viscosity. You want a good thick oil in there, which won't be pushed past the seal by the air pressure.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Well, that Mobil 1 10W-60 full synthetic looks and feels viscous enough.. From now on I'll be sure to use it instead of 20W Stendec damper oil for air pistons.


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## emrs0414 (Apr 10, 2005)

I use RockOil for all the Fox forks services (and any fork services for that matter) that I do and they work absolutely just fine... at least for our hot/dry/wet/humid weather here in Asia. And Mobil 1 75W-90 for the piston fluid. No complaints here...


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

emrs0414,
which weight of Rock Oil do you use for open bath Fox dampers?


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## Gman086 (Jul 4, 2004)

bad mechanic said:


> Mobil 1 ATF will NOT eat your seals.
> 
> Synthetic gear oil is what you want for the air chamber. If you can't find it at the car store (which you should be able to since it's very frequently used in differentials), then you should be able to find it in your local motorcycle shop.


Good to know, was wondering if the synthetic versions were more seal friendly! :thumbsup:

I used ATF for open bath damping back in the days of my Stratos S8. worked fine but the seal wear was horrible. FInally switched to Golden Spectro 5 wt oil and was like butta! You can blend in higher weight shock oil to get it just right. With ATF you're pretty much at the mercy of the viscosity as blending isn't recommended.

Have FUN!

G


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## emrs0414 (Apr 10, 2005)

J. Random Psycho said:


> emrs0414,
> which weight of Rock Oil do you use for open bath Fox dampers?


The 7.5wt. :thumbsup:


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Well, that Mobil 1 10W-60 full synthetic looks and feels viscous enough.


Are you sure you used 10W-60? I can't find that oil listed on Mobil1's site.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

Gman086 said:


> Good to know, was wondering if the synthetic versions were more seal friendly! :thumbsup:
> 
> I used ATF for open bath damping back in the days of my Stratos S8. worked fine but the seal wear was horrible. FInally switched to Golden Spectro 5 wt oil and was like butta! You can blend in higher weight shock oil to get it just right. With ATF you're pretty much at the mercy of the viscosity as blending isn't recommended.
> 
> ...


There's an excellent thread on ATF, and I'll try and dig it up. Basically, crap ATF has attacked a seal or two. But, I'd say crap oil has done that as well. It's one of the reasons I recommend Mobil1 oil and ATF, since you know it's quality. My big issue with it is Mobil1 ATF smells horribly, and is the main reason I don't use it anymore.

What's nice about ATF is it's high quality oil, with good lubricity, and consistent in viscosity across brands. It's approximately a 7.5w oil. So, in your scenario, maybe the difference in feel was from going to a lighter oil.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

bad mechanic said:


> Are you sure you used 10W-60? I can't find that oil listed on Mobil1's site.


This is a very interesting topic. When I first went looking for Mobil 1 motor oils, I have noticed that US and Canadian catalogs are not the same as European and Russian catalogs. They list entirely different lines of motor oils!

I guess that's because they are made from different sorts of crude oil, coming from different sources (whichever source is closest to respective refineries, perhaps).

That 10W-60 Mobil 1 motor oil says the following on the front side of the can:
Mobil 1
Extended Life
Higher mileage protection
10W-60
Fully Synthetic Motor Oil
1L

The rear side of the can suggests that this oil is marketed in the UK, Ireland, all Scandinavian countries, Ukraine, Belorussia, and Russia.

On the contrary, Mobil ATF SHC is listed on Russian Mobil site as being one of "imported" oils, so it must be the same stuff that you get to use. It does smell unpleasant, that's for sure. )


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

Uh, I never realized they marketed different products for different geographic areas. The 10w-60 is 152 cSt/40*C, so it's more than viscous enough to use in the air chamber.


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## pipes10 (Mar 11, 2007)

I've read through the thread but have yet to find an actual answer (unless I missed it which is possible).

Fox Green = Silkolene Maintain Fork oil = [email protected]*C of 47.00
Fox Red = Silkolene Pro RSF = [email protected]*C of 47.36 (seems high compared to the lubrication oil Fox Green, no?)


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

pipes10 said:


> I've read through the thread but have yet to find an actual answer (unless I missed it which is possible).
> 
> Fox Green = Silkolene Maintain Fork oil = [email protected]*C of 47.00
> Fox Red = Silkolene Pro RSF = [email protected]*C of 47.36 (seems high compared to the lubrication oil Fox Green, no?)


Yes it does. But one product is Torco and the other is Silkolene. One product is intended for the dampers and the other for lubing the lowers. I'm suspecting the product for the lowers is like a manual transmission fluid and has good sheer stability.


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## pipes10 (Mar 11, 2007)

fermenter said:


> Yes it does. But one product is Torco and the other is Silkolene. One product is intended for the dampers and the other for lubing the lowers. I'm suspecting the product for the lowers is like a manual transmission fluid and has good sheer stability.


Thanks. I did find my answer in a thread I started as well.

http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/fox-40-green-red-10wt-oil-739612.html#post8466042


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Motorex 7.5wt is pretty close.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Careful with using motor oil in forks.

Stick with the regular Mobil 1 (not high mileage). I emailed Mobil and they told me it doesn't contain seal swellers.

I am currently doing a test of Fox green oil with slick honey dissolved vs. maxima RFF vs. diluted Vactra 2 as semi-bath lube and I am getting very good results with the fox green.


----------



## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Hmmm, that Mobil 1 "Extended Life" 10W-60 oil is claimed to contain "seal conditioners", must be similar to US/Canadian "high mileage" composition.

I should have sought harder for gear oil instead..


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

There is endless paranoia about seal-swellers. But I have yet to see a fork damaged by them.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Dougal said:


> There is endless paranoia about seal-swellers. But I have yet to see a fork damaged by them.


I know. That is why I contacted Mobil directly to address this.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Hmmm, that Mobil 1 "Extended Life" 10W-60 oil is claimed to contain "seal conditioners", must be similar to US/Canadian "high mileage" composition.
> 
> I should have sought harder for gear oil instead..


Seal conditioners are good. Even Maxima fork oil has seal conditioners.

Seal swellers are bad.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

tacubaya said:


> Seal conditioners are good. Even Maxima fork oil has seal conditioners.
> 
> Seal swellers are bad.


Why do they add seal swellers to high mileage oil, then? I guess it's to compensate for wear, so that seals fill larger gaps better.

And it sounds like seal swellers are a special case of seal conditioners, so it cannot be deduced that an oil doesn't contain swellers if it's claimed to contain conditioners. What is it that seal conditioners do to seals?


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Why do they add seal swellers to high mileage oil, then? I guess it's to compensate for wear, so that seals fill larger gaps better.
> 
> And it sounds like seal swellers are a special case of seal conditioners, so it cannot be deduced that an oil doesn't contain swellers if it's claimed to contain conditioners. What is it that seal conditioners do to seals?


Seal conditioners soften the seals and avoid the formation of cracks.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> Seal swellers are bad.


Based on what?

As I said before, I have yet to see a fork suffer any ill effects from seal swellers.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

*HBO on inverted Fox FIT*



PMK said:


> Yes and no. If the bath has any possibility of mixing with cartridge fluid then it's not so good. This is possible on cartridges that use some form of hydraulic bottoming control on the cartridge gland or sealhead. These hydraulic bottoming controls have various names depending upon who made the fork.
> 
> Upon bottoming some times it is possible to force fluid past the seal and inject it into the cartridge unit.
> 
> PK


Does the Van HBO send bath oil into the inverted Fit cartridge? I thought the whole idea behind the bladder was to keep it sealed

Anyone know more about this??


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Dougal said:


> Based on what?
> 
> As I said before, I have yet to see a fork suffer any ill effects from seal swellers.


On Ridemonkey a couple of riders said their seals swelled up so badly they had to hammer the CSU out of the lowers.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

tacubaya said:


> On Ridemonkey a couple of riders said their seals swelled up so badly they had to hammer the CSU out of the lowers.


Oh, _those_ seals. At first I thought that it's about air spring and damper o-rings.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> On Ridemonkey a couple of riders said their seals swelled up so badly they had to hammer the CSU out of the lowers.


Smells fishy to me. Even if a seal bloated to 3x it's size (which they can't/don't) it wouldn't grab enough to need the stanchions hammered out.


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## chtorres2 (May 29, 2010)

Ok so if I was to use Mobil 1 for my lowers on a F120 Fit which one would you recommend? Mobil 1 0W-40 ,5W-20, 5W-30,10W-30, 15W-50


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

10/30

Less bushing knock, viscosity induced drag is moot in the application.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

DeerhillJDOG said:


> Does the Van HBO send bath oil into the inverted Fit cartridge? I thought the whole idea behind the bladder was to keep it sealed
> 
> Anyone know more about this??


No separated type fluid system should ever mix, however there are some instances where lubricating / bath fluid can sometimes be forced past the seals and into the cartridge.

When you buy and use a performance product, often a similar maintenance schedule must be maintained. This continuous maintenance program assures better performance and the less possibility of blowby fluid creating a concern.

Will it happen to your exact fork, it may or may not. It is a concern more for bikes that are undersprung and constantly bottom out IF they utilize a bottoming cone.

PK


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Smells fishy to me. Even if a seal bloated to 3x it's size (which they can't/don't) it wouldn't grab enough to need the stanchions hammered out.


In the 20 years of working on bicycle suspension, and 35 of working on moto suspension, I have had only two suspension components that had the seals actually swell so bad the plastic hammer came out.

Both times were on my own personal stuff when testing fluids for better performance.

Both fluids caused the seal to swell to just under twice the original of when installed. Both were on Fox ALPS rear dampers.

The one severe case of fork seals having excess drag, probably from swelling, was on my KTM. I had used Silkolene Pro RSF in the forks. The forks became notchy and horrible. Others around the world experienced similar results with the same fluid.

From that day forward Silkolene was relegated to closed dampers only.

Mobil 1 ATF has been the best performing fluid in the KTM, and in the bicycle forks it has been used in.

Yes seals can swell, but overall it is not too common with quality fluids, VI numbers seem to directly correspond to the amount of swelling.

Seal conditioners are also utilized in some fluids. If you need your fix on what goes into these fluids, spend some time at Bob is the oil guy forum. Some very smart folks over there if you can figure out who they are...

PK


----------



## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

PMK said:


> Mobil 1 ATF has been the best performing fluid in the KTM, and in the bicycle forks it has been used in.


Thank you, that's good to know.



PMK said:


> VI numbers seem to directly correspond to the amount of swelling.


This means that VI modifiers have a side effect of seal swelling?



PMK said:


> If you need your fix on what goes into these fluids, spend some time at Bob is the oil guy forum.


I have been reading that forum occasionally, when led there by Google searches. I'll be paying more attention to it now.


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## chtorres2 (May 29, 2010)

ok Thanks man


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## lelebebbel (Jan 31, 2005)

Bumping this to the top because it has been one of the most helpful threads I've seen on here.

I serviced my Fox 40s because the previous owner had not been very careful when bleeding the cartridge, so the damper had about half an inch of play at top out.

Clueless as I was, I first replaced the damper oil with a mix of silkolene fork oil 5Wt and 15Wt, hoping to achieve about the "10Wt" of the Fox Red oil. I then used the same oil for the lubrication oil bath.
Result was almost no damping and a very sticky fork.

So, back to the drawing board, a little bit of research, and with help from this thread and this table here: Peter Verdone Designs - Low Speed Damping I figured out that Silkolene Fork Oil 15Wt is actually a lot closer to the Silkolene RSF Pro 10Wt that comes stock in these forks, so no mixing required. 
I also replaced the lubrication oil with Valvoline synthetic 15W40 engine oil.

-> Fork is smoother than ever and damping works like it should. Especially the difference caused by the lubricating oil is remarkable.


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## liftmys10 (Feb 22, 2006)

subscribed post #* 48, thanks!


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## liftmys10 (Feb 22, 2006)

So what's the answer to this OP's question? Anyone?


----------



## liftmys10 (Feb 22, 2006)

Any thoughts on Maxima Racing Fork Fluid?


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

I need to service my fork as well and am concerned about leaking . . . Fox recommends 30ml of Green Fox Fluid per leg. If I'm reading this thread correctly, I can replace this with 30ml of Mobil 1 synthetic 10W30 engine oil, correct?

This is for a 2010 Float 150 FIT RLC . . . I'm ONLY doing the lowers . . . not the FIT cartridge or the air piston (I don't have the tools for that) and I don't think I'm due for that service yet.


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

I would use the Fox Green. It *works very* well as a lubrication fluid. I've done some testing with several fluids and I'm liking the Fox Green a lot.

You don't need many tools to service the air piston and I recommend it. If you run the piston seal dry it will wear very quickly.


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## 007 (Jun 16, 2005)

tacubaya said:


> I would use the Fox Green. It *works very* well as a lubrication fluid. I've done some testing with several fluids and I'm liking the Fox Green a lot.
> 
> You don't need many tools to service the air piston and I recommend it. If you run the piston seal dry it will wear very quickly.


Great. I'll search for some videos


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

zippy895 said:


> FOX PILLOW PACK====MOBIL 1 75W90.synthetic gear oil


Just bought a jug of Mobil 1 SGO and they are *NOT* the same.

Float Fluid is much more viscous, feels smoother, feels much more tacky.. the Mobil SGO feels like it reduces friction more than the FF, but it is thinner.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

I measured and placed two o-rings and two marzocchi oil seals in two different containers. One of them has Fox Red fluid (Silkolene RSF) and the other has Mobil Gear Oil. I will leave them there for a month and then measure them to see if I notice any swelling.

Later on I will do the same for ATF fluid and motor oil.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> I measured and placed two o-rings and two marzocchi oil seals in two different containers. One of them has Fox Red fluid (Silkolene RSF) and the other has Mobil Gear Oil. I will leave them there for a month and then measure them to see if I notice any swelling.
> 
> Later on I will do the same for ATF fluid and motor oil.


Do yourself a favor, to convince yourself not to use Pro RDF in an open style suspension component, leave some RSF exposed to air unprotected. You may need to reapply a couple times, but my experience in this situation, has many times (all), have the RSF get very tacky.

If you do this with Ohlins #5, it will build a crust that must be removed with abrasive pads.

The worst swelling of a Quad ring, Factory Connection GSF. Expensive and likely very good damping and heat wise. Possibly great if you constantly rebuild like a factory team rider.

PK


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## mucky (Dec 17, 2010)

tacubaya said:


> Just bought a jug of Mobil 1 SGO and they are *NOT* the same.
> 
> Float Fluid is much more viscous, feels smoother, feels much more tacky.. the Mobil SGO feels like it reduces friction more than the FF, but it is thinner.


I think it's supposed to be 80w-90.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

mucky said:


> I think it's supposed to be 80w-90.


I've got both. They are nowhere close the viscocity of the Float Fluid. The float fluid must be north of 180 cSt (the 80w90 is 139 cSt)


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

PMK said:


> Do yourself a favor, to convince yourself not to use Pro RDF in an open style suspension component, leave some RSF exposed to air unprotected. You may need to reapply a couple times, but my experience in this situation, has many times (all), have the RSF get very tacky.
> 
> If you do this with Ohlins #5, it will build a crust that must be removed with abrasive pads.
> 
> ...


Yeah I did the test with the Silkolene because of the comments regarding the stiction and possible swelling in the boards. I want to see for myself what happens.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Another suggestion....

I have been using Valvoline Maxlife ATF, and Royal Purple 0w10 Extreme racing oil lately. Both have excellent CST ratios. The Royal Purple is SLIPPERY!!!! Great in fork baths.

Both are synthetic, and the Valvoline is readily available, and seems to have better CST values than the Mobil 1 ATF.

EDIT: I mostly use the Maxlife ATF in my off road truck shocks, as there is lots of volume, and the cost is good. I use the Royal Purple in Moto/Bike stuff, as it is so slippery, I am pretty sure I can tell a difference in friction reduction.


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## EmanResu (Mar 1, 2007)

tacubaya said:


> I measured and placed two o-rings and two marzocchi oil seals in two different containers. One of them has Fox Red fluid (Silkolene RSF) and the other has Mobil Gear Oil. I will leave them there for a month and then measure them to see if I notice any swelling.
> 
> Later on I will do the same for ATF fluid and motor oil.


Out of interest I placed an identically-sized o-ring and strip of innertube rubber in four bottle tops here a few weeks ago with different oils in each.

I can't say too much about the results for sure yet as I still need to pull the stuff out and measure changes, but can say that there was a dramatic swelling of the innertube strips, but no obvious change to the o-rings as yet (though may need careful measuring to see). The funny thing is that the innertube strips didn't swell at anywhere near the same speed as each other, and that the rate looks to be relative to the viscosity of the oils they were sat in, in that the fork oil was the most aggressive, and gear oil the least, with 2 motor oils in between. They may well all swell to the same size eventually, I've no idea, but thought it pretty interesting that that would happen.

I do understand that different rubber types react differently, and already knew the innertube rubber to be sensitive to oil. I'm mostly interested to see what happens to the o-rings.


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## BorisD (Apr 6, 2006)

Interesting thread.

Is there a consensus on the best bath oil for splash lubrication? (Fox 36 FIT RLC)

There seems to be plenty of candidates.

Cheers


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

BorisD said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> Is there a consensus on the best bath oil for splash lubrication? (Fox 36 FIT RLC)
> 
> ...


I'm gonna run my fork with Vactra 2 oil this next 2 weekends to see if it feels better than with the Fox Green. If the seals and o-rings survive the swell test on the Mobil gear lube then that's going on my fork next.


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## tyrebyter (Sep 25, 2008)

Who said motor oil? Bad idea; detergents make it hygroscopic. Unless it was motor oil made for an aircraft engine, stay away from it.


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## myarmisonfire (Mar 28, 2005)

tyrebyter said:


> Who said motor oil? Bad idea; detergents make it hygroscopic. Unless it was motor oil made for an aircraft engine, stay away from it.


If you have water in your fork then you have larger concerns than the detergents in the oil. Anyways some of the manufacturers recommend motor oil...


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

tyrebyter said:


> Who said motor oil? Bad idea; detergents make it hygroscopic. Unless it was motor oil made for an aircraft engine, stay away from it.


Pretty sure high end synthetics these days are pretty stable, in respect to water retention. I would not suggest anyone grab some cheap $1.99 generic oil from the gas station and start using that.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Hygroscopic or not, the forks are a sealed container, so whether it absorbs moisture from the air, or the air is "wet" when trapped inside the fork legs, the difference is pretty much negligible.

FWIW, there is no way of telling or seeing exactly what they put in suspension fluid. Some of the stuff offered is quite nasty in regards to additives to bring up the VI.

PK


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## tyrebyter (Sep 25, 2008)

Motor oils are made to operate in a temperature regulated environment: an engine. Whether Wal-Mart store brand or Golden Spectro, they all have detergents and are not suitable for contact with air unless the environment is hot enough to vaporize and vent water molecules. All my forks, Fox, Marzocchi and RockShox, have air in them. Yours may be different or you may be running pure nitrogen. In any case, there are plenty of off-spec oils available to play with as others in this thread have mentioned (ATF, Power Steering Fluid, GL gear oils, Hydraulic Fluids, etc) none of which are hygroscopic. Why bother with motor oil?


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Results:

Mobil Vactra 2: no swelling
Silkolene RSF: no swelling
Mobil 80w90 gear oil: no swelling


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> Results:
> 
> Mobil Vactra 2: no swelling
> Silkolene RSF: no swelling
> Mobil 80w90 gear oil: no swelling


Pretty much what I expected. As I mentioned, the one time Silkolene trashed a set of seals was on WP suspension on a KTM. My personal fork got notchy with Pro RSF as did several other internet folks around the US. The seals did not swell so much as became impregnated with one of the components of the fluid and could never be cleaned to the point of having low drag as when new. Additionally, they could have swelled very slightly, no measurements before or after were taken. They were replaced, different fluid was used and the problems never reappeared.

Pro RSF and several other fluids are great fluids, typically though in a closed damper and not exposed to air. So in a FOX fork damper this could be a good application. However in the outer tubes the poor sliding quality hurts the forks small bump performance.

During your test, did you place some Silkolene onto a piece of glass exposed to air? In a thin film of fluid, let it "dry" and it should become very tacky. This mimics the coating of fluid left on the telescopic tubes. Difficult to detect, but there none the less and makes the tubes notchy. This not what happened to the WP seals, as the tubes were cleaned and siliconed to verify this was not the problem.

Bel-Ray HV1 is stated specifically on the Bel-Ray website it is only for closed dampers, yet people put it inside open chamber forks and love it at first, then report back with all sorts of weird fork action.

While many folks are against Mobil 1 ATF or other Mobil 1 oils, ironically these are both designed to work in an environment with them exposed to air. Therefore they remain extremely stable. Their downside is often the viscosity requires some revalving of the shims to optimize the ride.

PK


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

Been using Pro RSF and/ or motorbike engine oil[ high wear additives] as bath oil in all my Fox forks over the last couple of years. No problems at all. Pro RSF actually made those forks that I switched over from the Old Fox Red [ torco RSF med] smoother. Possibly more due to it's + viscosity giving it more film strength. I've got some Torco synthetic ATF which i might try as well. I've used both Torco and royal purple engine assy fluid above air piston and in RP23 air sleeves. Mixture of both is best as both are on either extremes of Fox Float Fluid. Pity the royal purple assy fluid isn't a touch lighter to use as bath oil. Very slippery stuff .


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

PMK said:


> Pretty much what I expected. As I mentioned, the one time Silkolene trashed a set of seals was on WP suspension on a KTM. My personal fork got notchy with Pro RSF as did several other internet folks around the US. The seals did not swell so much as became impregnated with one of the components of the fluid and could never be cleaned to the point of having low drag as when new. Additionally, they could have swelled very slightly, no measurements before or after were taken. They were replaced, different fluid was used and the problems never reappeared.
> 
> Pro RSF and several other fluids are great fluids, typically though in a closed damper and not exposed to air. So in a FOX fork damper this could be a good application. However in the outer tubes the poor sliding quality hurts the forks small bump performance.
> 
> ...


UDI @ Ridemonkey said this:



> This is a topic I've had great interest in, so I might be able to help.
> 
> I've noticed a correlation between high-VI oils (such as Silkolene, Redline is another very likely possibility) and increased bushing stiction. These two oils are by far the highest VI oils you can buy, and work great in dampers, however they are NOT the right choice for lubricating lower legs and bushings in my opinion.
> 
> ...


As i've mentioned before, Fox Green is great for lubrication, but for the sakes of experimentation I'm gonna run the Vactra 2 for lubrication next time I service my fork.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Interesting, and truth be told, in regards to the Silkolene Pro RSF swelling the Teflon / Lead DU bushings, I know for a fact that the only hard part that was replaced were the seals. The Silkolene never touched the new seals, the fluid in the open chamber WP's was from that day forward and is to this day still Mobil 1 ATF.

The real learning about how poorly Silkolene is as a lubricant for MTB stuff was found during the mid 90's when I had a business rebuilding MTB rear dampers. At the time, the Fox ALPs 4 was the air shock of choice. For a couple of years Silkolene was the primary fluid of all my work accomplished.

Consider that this was in an era of 75mm being considered long travel and riders did not want any pedal induced bob.

With the entry of the first Marzocchi Z1 [email protected] 100mm of lively travel, emphasis shifted. Now the no bob rear end, was actually kind of harsh. The new forks gave the ability to choose lines straight through the hack, but the rear end would flail and skip.

Testing began on new fluids. In the end, much better fluids allowed the a properly built ALPs rear damper to keep up with the Bomber on the front.

Shifting over to the moto side, myself nor none of my internet friends ever really sorted out what happened with the Silkolene and the WP seals. It is known though that WP has a difficult time building suspension as nice or that performs as well as the Asian or Swedish competition.

Ironically, the current best seals for a WP are made by SKF, just as they are the current seals for Fox. NOK brand was the previous manufacturer for both also. Prior to NOK, the WP forks ran many different version of seals from someone else.

One simple test when building a moto fork, is to place the fork vertical, clamped by the axle fitting. With no internals installed, extend the fork tubes and see how well the drop (compress) under the weight of the upper tubes.

Until fairly recently, a non modified WP would not fall on from it's own weight. To make this happen requires some time spent refinishing the tubes.

Suspension, regardless of the vehicle, is a series of best compromises. Each vehicle and rider are different. However it is never possible to make the suspension too good. Ironically because it is a series of compromises, most often on properly maintained stuff, a few small improvements see noticeable change in how the vehicle performs.

PK


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

tacubaya said:


> I'm gonna run my fork with Vactra 2 oil this next 2 weekends to see if it feels better than with the Fox Green. If the seals and o-rings survive the swell test on the Mobil gear lube then that's going on my fork next.


Huh! Use Vactra#2 on my lathes bedways at work. Thought of it a few times for lowers but never tried it. Funny thing the lathe mfg suggested I use STP oil treatment instead.

Looking forward to hearing your comments on this lube in your fork.

I'm still running Mobile 1 20w 50

I still suspect the fox green is a manual transmission fluid. (not ordinairy gear oil)

Cheers!


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

fermenter said:


> Huh! Use Vactra#2 on my lathes bedways at work. Thought of it a few times for lowers but never tried it. Funny thing the lathe mfg suggested I use STP oil treatment instead.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing your comments on this lube in your fork.
> 
> ...


Fox green is re-coloured fork fluid made by Torco.

I will run the Vactra 2 next weekend.

Cheers.


----------



## Douger-1 (Jan 7, 2010)

Im thinking of using this stuff. Thoughts?

Bel-Ray High Performance Fork Oil | Bel-Ray Company, Inc


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

I'd stick to Torco or Maxima.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Finally changed my bath oil to Mobil Vactra 2 way oil. I'm going riding tomorrow so I'll report how it felt.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

tacubaya said:


> Finally changed my bath oil to Mobil Vactra 2 way oil. I'm going riding tomorrow so I'll report how it felt.


I'm really interested to see what you find.

How old was the oil which was in there?


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

bad mechanic said:


> I'm really interested to see what you find.
> 
> How old was the oil which was in there?


4 months old.

Good news on the Vactra 2: Feels super smooth and you can see the Vactra 2 clinging into the stanchions and keeping them lubed all the time. :eekster:

Bad news: The stanchions now attract *a lot* more dirt. 

Conclusion: I'll leave the Vactra 2 for a couple of weeks but I'm switching back to Fox Green (or perhaps Mobil Gear Lube to test it out).

Edit: Went to ride again today and there was minimal dirt on the stanchions. I think it was due to the slick honey and not the Vactra. Anyways, I think it feels a bit smoother with the Fox Green so I'll switch back in the next service.


----------



## nickboers (Sep 26, 2009)

PMK said:


> If you have not opened the fluid and can return it I would. All my experience with Finishline fluids found them to foam badly and not release the bubbles quickly.
> 
> Truth be told, Mobil 1 ATF will work a lot better, last longer, and per oz of fluid be a fraction of the cost. It will even outperform many specific fork fluids.
> 
> PK


Any experience or comments on Amsoil fluids?


----------



## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

tacubaya said:


> 4 months old.
> 
> Good news on the Vactra 2: Feels super smooth and you can see the Vactra 2 clinging into the stanchions and keeping them lubed all the time. :eekster:
> 
> ...


 At $26.00 a gallon from McMaster Carr that would service many forks for many years!
Thanks for posting up.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

fermenter said:


> At $26.00 a gallon from McMaster Carr that would service many forks for many years!
> Thanks for posting up.


Yeah Vactra 2 is quite cheap.

I'll change back to Fox Green/Maxima RFF. Vactra 2 works well but I still think the Fox Green is the best so far. I'm probably selling my fork so no more testing for a while (I still want to test the Mobil gear oil).


----------



## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

nickboers said:


> Any experience or comments on Amsoil fluids?


No, sorry.

PK


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## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

Vacuoline 1409 is better than Vactra #2.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

beanbag said:


> Vacuoline 1409 is better than Vactra #2.


Vacuoline 1409 AFAIK is the old Vactra #2 (with tackifiers).


----------



## beanbag (Nov 20, 2005)

yes, and the current vactra #2 is worse than the old one.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

beanbag said:


> yes, and the current vactra #2 is worse than the old one.


In certain applications, yes. No problems or complaints on the 4 CNC machines it is being used at the university.


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## kendal (Mar 25, 2008)

I have Maxima oil 5 wt & 15 wt from my rock shock service. Can I use the with my Fox f29 fit shock?


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## gsoroos (Jan 4, 2012)

Oh boy, I tried to read the whole thread and so much of it goes over my head. I'm going to be servicing my OEM Fox F29 100 open bath fork that came on a 2011 Paragon. 

The question I have is: Can I use Redline medium in place of Fox green? Is the Redline a better fluid? or is the Fox the best to use? I am also thinking of using the more next winter in Minnesota when temps can be really low. During winter could I use Redline light for extra lubrication and less damping?

Sorry if the questions seem stupid, but with so much info, my brain can't process it well. Thanks.


----------



## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

gsoroos said:


> Oh boy, I tried to read the whole thread and so much of it goes over my head. I'm going to be servicing my OEM Fox F29 100 open bath fork that came on a 2011 Paragon.
> 
> The question I have is: Can I use Redline medium in place of Fox green? Is the Redline a better fluid? or is the Fox the best to use? I am also thinking of using the more next winter in Minnesota when temps can be really low. During winter could I use Redline light for extra lubrication and less damping?
> 
> Sorry if the questions seem stupid, but with so much info, my brain can't process it well. Thanks.


Fox green


----------



## gsoroos (Jan 4, 2012)

tacubaya said:


> Fox green


Thanks.


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## Udi (Jan 25, 2008)

tacubaya said:


> Fox green is re-coloured fork fluid made by Torco.


I think that might be a little misleading, the Fox green does not match specs of any current suspension fluid made by Torco, thus I am almost positive that it is a custom formulation made to Fox's specifications - likely by Torco - but not available as a Torco product.

The cSt of 47 conveniently matches the damper oil viscosity Fox normally uses (Pro RSF 10wt), and I'm presuming they did this so their open bath forks could be converted over (to the Green) without any valving changes.

Anyway just throwing it out there in case anyone is trying to find a suitable replacement in the Torco lineup - you won't find one.

It's good to hear you like it though, I do too.


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## Nealy (Oct 6, 2011)

gsoroos said:


> Oh boy, I tried to read the whole thread and so much of it goes over my head. I'm going to be servicing my OEM Fox F29 100 open bath fork that came on a 2011 Paragon.
> 
> The question I have is: Can I use Redline medium in place of Fox green? Is the Redline a better fluid? or is the Fox the best to use? I am also thinking of using the more next winter in Minnesota when temps can be really low. During winter could I use Redline light for extra lubrication and less damping?
> 
> Sorry if the questions seem stupid, but with so much info, my brain can't process it well. Thanks.


From what I have read and in my own experience Red Line fluid is good so it's a good idea to use it but you will need to mix their fluids to get the correct viscosity. See below which is worked out from this calculator > The Mountain Bike Calculator Page


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## gsoroos (Jan 4, 2012)

Nealy said:


> From what I have read and in my own experience Red Line fluid is good so it's a good idea to use it but you will need to mix their fluids to get the correct viscosity. See below which is worked out from this calculator > The Mountain Bike Calculator Page


Thanks! That's great info. :thumbsup: Will do this once I get all the supplies ordered.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Udi said:


> I think that might be a little misleading, the Fox green does not match specs of any current suspension fluid made by Torco, thus I am almost positive that it is a custom formulation made to Fox's specifications - likely by Torco - but not available as a Torco product.
> 
> The cSt of 47 conveniently matches the damper oil viscosity Fox normally uses (Pro RSF 10wt), and I'm presuming they did this so their open bath forks could be converted over (to the Green) without any valving changes.
> 
> ...


I think the specs were miswritten on the bottle on purpose.

I got this info from an experienced suspension tech. May be right, may be wrong, who knows.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

gsoroos said:


> Thanks! That's great info. :thumbsup: Will do this once I get all the supplies ordered.


Fox green > Redline for lubrication purposes.


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## Udi (Jan 25, 2008)

tacubaya said:


> I think the specs were miswritten on the bottle on purpose.
> 
> I got this info from an experienced suspension tech. May be right, may be wrong, who knows.


I can't be 100% sure myself either, but I would take Fox's word over an unaffiliated suspension tech (I worked for a Fox distributor in Europe). Also, mislabeling oil weight in cSt would be a ridiculous thing for a very engineering-focused company like Fox to do on purpose, and apart from throwing off a few nerds like us, wouldn't really achieve anything from a marketing standpoint.

I stand by my statement that Fox Green is not a Torco product you can purchase off the shelf (believe me, if it was, I'd go buy some myself. given consumer pricing outside of the US). If you're going to claim otherwise I think you really need to run oil analysis (i.e. chemical) and viscosity tests on the Green and supposed equivalent in the Torco lineup before just throwing the claim out there.


----------



## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

I'd say if you're using a sealed damper, then substitute Mobil1 motor oil for Fox green since you're just using it for lubrication.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

bad mechanic said:


> I'd say if you're using a sealed damper, then substitute Mobil1 motor oil for Fox green since you're just using it for lubrication.


Are you sure you don't mean Mobil 1 ATF? From my experience ATF is much more consistent.


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## gsoroos (Jan 4, 2012)

tacubaya said:


> Fox green > Redline for lubrication purposes.


Perfect! I'll order the real deal then. :thumbsup:


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## gsoroos (Jan 4, 2012)

bad mechanic said:


> I'd say if you're using a sealed damper, then substitute Mobil1 motor oil for Fox green since you're just using it for lubrication.


It's for an F29 RL that was OEM on a 2011 Trek Paragon. From everything I can tell it's an open bath fork so the oil serves 2 purpose, right? Damping and lubrication. I know some oils/fluids are best at one or the other, but what's the best for doing both?

Sounds like tacubaya thinks it the real Fox Green. But I'm still open to suggestions, I haven't ordered anything yet.


----------



## Udi (Jan 25, 2008)

Yeah he's correct, the Fox Green is the way to go - and offers better sliding performance than any other oil I've tried in a Fox lower.

It was developed specifically for this purpose, but is also the specified damping fluid for their open bath forks. I don't think there's any reason to believe it's a bad damper oil, and has the correct 47cSt viscosity already so you don't need to blend it yourself.

You should be able to compensate for weather with the damping adjusters and the higher oil volume of the open bath will mean any changes (due to temperature) over a run will less drastic anyway.

Unfortunately with an open bath fork you don't have the flexibility of using different fluids for damping / lubrication, and like most things in life, one thing will rarely be the 'best' for two different purposes. That said I doubt you'll be unhappy with Fox Green, and personally I'd try it before Redline in a Fox fork. You can always try the RL later if you feel the need.

The 2012 SKF seals are a good upgrade to do at service time too, if you haven't already.


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## gsoroos (Jan 4, 2012)

Udi said:


> The 2012 SKF seals are a good upgrade to do at service time too, if you haven't already.


I was thinking about ordering those too, as well as the Fox float pillow pack. I imagine that's all I'd need for a 1st time service on a newish fork with no issues.

Thanks for everyones help.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

On my open damper Fox forks I still use Mobil1 in the spring side.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Udi said:


> I can't be 100% sure myself either, but I would take Fox's word over an unaffiliated suspension tech (I worked for a Fox distributor in Europe). Also, mislabeling oil weight in cSt would be a ridiculous thing for a very engineering-focused company like Fox to do on purpose, and apart from throwing off a few nerds like us, wouldn't really achieve anything from a marketing standpoint.
> 
> I stand by my statement that Fox Green is not a Torco product you can purchase off the shelf (believe me, if it was, I'd go buy some myself. given consumer pricing outside of the US). If you're going to claim otherwise I think you really need to run oil analysis (i.e. chemical) and viscosity tests on the Green and supposed equivalent in the Torco lineup before just throwing the claim out there.


Yea.

But my statement...

"Fox green is re-coloured fork fluid made by Torco."

...isn't incorrect. Fox green is a re-coloured fork fluid made by Torco. If this fluid is avaiable or not for aftermarket sales, that is whole other enchilada 

Anyways, everyone should get the Fox green directly from Fox. It's $18.00 a bottle and Torco aftermarket oil is not that cheap anyway so...


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## Udi (Jan 25, 2008)

Haha, well it's not just re-coloured. But yeah fair call. 

BTW, the Fox green is $47 in Australia, which is about US$50. It's about the same in the EU too, even staff price was more than $18.

You guys are lucky!


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

thuren said:


> Are you sure you don't mean Mobil 1 ATF? From my experience ATF is much more consistent.


Did a test w/ synthetic 5w40 Mobil1 engine oil vs the new Fox Green over the last couple months. Used the spring side on a 36 and the stock Fox wiper, fairly new (non SKF)

The Mobil1 has a better feel on the trail, it starts to weep past the wiper quicker than the Green. I usually switch between the yellow and green spring depending on the trail and noticed the difference on both springs. I want to try both legs

The Green has more friction on the foam ring. Can actually hear the difference on each side, sounds like running your fiinger across paper w/ good tooth.

Not sure Mobil1 is a good idea on the other leg. I'm positive it would make it past the FIT seal and into the damper. Kind of wondering how much of a problem the engine oil mixed w/ suspension fluid would cause to the damper. Maybe the thicker ATF would cure this


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## AndyN (Jan 12, 2004)

DeerhillJDOG said:


> Not sure Mobil1 is a good idea on the other leg. I'm positive it would make it past the FIT seal and into the damper.


Huh?

How is bath oil going to get into the *sealed* FIT damper that is already *completely filled* with suspension fluid?


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

DeerhillJDOG said:


> Did a test w/ synthetic 5w40 Mobil1 engine oil vs the new Fox Green over the last couple months. Used the spring side on a 36 and the stock Fox wiper, fairly new (non SKF)
> 
> The Mobil1 has a better feel on the trail, it starts to weep past the wiper quicker than the Green. I usually switch between the yellow and green spring depending on the trail and noticed the difference on both springs. I want to try both legs
> 
> ...


FWIW, learn to service the FIT damper, keep reasonable service intervals and you will be fine.

Consider also, the FIT damper and Fox Green are different fluids too.

Unless you constantly bottom the fork, or are riding on the bottoming cone it won't be a problem.

PK


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## Udi (Jan 25, 2008)

DeerhillJDOG said:


> Did a test w/ synthetic 5w40 Mobil1 engine oil vs the new Fox Green over the last couple months. Used the spring side on a 36 and the stock Fox wiper, fairly new (non SKF)


Kashima fork?
Did you go from Green to Mobil1? I think for a fair comparison you should go from Mobil1 to Green again as well and then post up your experience.

I haven't tried M1 myself (actually have a few new bottles sitting here so might try it sometime) but straight after a rebuild / service, any oil feels good - especially because the wiper gets cleaned / lubricated.

Not discrediting you but I've found the Green stays good for a long time and doesn't get sticky after a while which most other fluids have done for me. The only thing I've done to my 40 in many months is wipe the dirt off the wipers and apply a small amount of green oil, and they feel like a freshly serviced fork again.

Also, as said above, it is rare that lubrication oil will get into the FIT cartridge, and virtually impossible if you have a new inverted cartridge.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

AndyN said:


> Huh?
> 
> How is bath oil going to get into the *sealed* FIT damper that is already *completely filled* with suspension fluid?


I'm not sure haven't tried it yet.. not even sure if the shaft is in contact with the damper fluid when it's compressed. And i'm talking film, very small amount

There's no way the bottom wiper removes all the oil from the shaft


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

PMK said:


> FWIW, learn to service the FIT damper, keep reasonable service intervals and you will be fine.
> 
> Consider also, the FIT damper and Fox Green are different fluids too.
> 
> ...


Good points thanks


----------



## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

Udi said:


> Kashima fork?
> Did you go from Green to Mobil1? I think for a fair comparison you should go from Mobil1 to Green again as well and then post up your experience.
> 
> I haven't tried M1 myself (actually have a few new bottles sitting here so might try it sometime) but straight after a rebuild / service, any oil feels good - especially because the wiper gets cleaned / lubricated.
> ...


Yes, it's 2011 Van rc2 w/ inverted FIT, went from the original Fox fluid to Mobil 1 and back to Green. Might try and soak the wiper on 12' RC4

Also changed the damper fluid several times last year and had a couple CSU replaced, tons of miles on this. Tried a couple Redline slurpee mixes which do make a slight difference, but the Mobil 1 just rides better than the green on my bike


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## reformed roadie (Mar 30, 2008)

great thread...now I know what to do with the jug of Mobile 1 0-40 weight I have in the garage.

While I have played with several Fox forks over the years, I now am due to overhaul the one RS I have, an 09 Revelation. I have just started to read up on the process, but was wondering if the Mobile 1 would work on both sides, as it seems the lube and damping are separate. Again, it should be obvious once I get up to speed, but I was hoping for a quick/easy answer...and to find out if I need to get more fluid.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

reformed roadie,
yes, engine oil will work for both semi-baths in a Revelation.

By the way, RS have recently lowered semi-bath oil volumes for their forks, e. g. from 15 ml to 6 ml in their 32 mm models. I ignore that and keep filling 15 ml in there. They also went with grease instead of oil for air piston lubrication, I don't quite get that too -- are they using some miracle grease?


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## Davey G (Nov 25, 2010)

Hi,

Sorry to be another person asking a similiar question but there are so many people in this thread that know their **** it seems like the best place.

I'm about to service my forks for the first time. I've never done a fork service before so just wanted to check.

The fork is a Fox 32 open bath RL 125mm that's on a 2011 Giant Trance X2. Mojo here in the UK recommended this:

Cartridge Side (Right): 160cc 10Wt Suspension Fluid
Bottom of air leg (Left): 30cc 10Wt Suspension Fluid
Top of air leg above piston: 5cc of Float Fluid.

My question is, i just want to replace the seals for the new SKF items and put in fresh fluid. The bike has only done about 10 outings so i wont imagine the oil will be dirty. I wanted to know if i would need to buy fluid for the air side and the cartridge side or i could get away with only the air side since that appears to be the only side that drops fluid when the lowers come off (from videos i've seen).

Also, in relation to this thread and from what i've been reading are people saying that i could be using an alternative like Mobil 1 ATF for both the air and cartridge side or only the one? And would the float fluid still be needed?

Any help appreciate.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Davey G,
you'll probably discover that there's no oil in air side lower leg. That's the way new forks are often assembled.

You can use Mobil 1 ATF SHC for semi-bath and open bath in that fork. However, for air side lower you can use full synthetic engine oil too, just not too viscous one (not the ones recommended for older engines and racing).

You'll also want to check Float Fluid level, just in case.

To operate on lowers in the way seal change requires, you'll probably want your lowers separated anyway. You can dump damper oil in a clean vessel so as to fill it back when you're done. Be sure that any contamination is either not introduced in the lowers while taking them off and removing the seals, or is washed away.


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## Davey G (Nov 25, 2010)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Davey G,
> you'll probably discover that there's no oil in air side lower leg. That's the way new forks are often assembled.
> 
> You can use Mobil 1 ATF SHC for semi-bath and open bath in that fork. However, for air side lower you can use full synthetic engine oil too, just not too viscous one (not the ones recommended for older engines and racing).
> ...


Thanks for the reply. This was also one of the main reasons for me stripping the fork as i've heard this about Fox forks and wanted to make sure they were filled with the correct fluid to the correct levels.

How do you check the fox float fluid level? Is this on the foam ring? And when it says, "Top of air leg above piston: 5cc of Float Fluid" where exactly is this put?

When i remove the 10mm nuts from the bottom will fluid come out of both legs or just the one? Reason i ask is that the videos i've seen only show one side but people are talking about replacing the dampening fluid. Is this just as easy i.e. do i just insert the fluid back into the hole in the bottom? I have read instructions on how to do it but none clear up those areas from what i've read so sorry if this appears to be stupid but as i say it's my first time and i want to make sure it's all 100% correct and i can do the job there and then.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Davey G,

for Float Fluid check, you can suck it into a syringe with tube attached. The fluid is located under the air valve cap, in a small pool right on the piston face and under the volume of pressurized air.


Bath oil will come out of both lowers when you remove 10 mm nuts and strike the rods inside. To fill air side semi-bath, you pour oil through the hole below. To fill RL damper side, you pour through the crown.


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## Davey G (Nov 25, 2010)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Davey G,
> 
> for Float Fluid check, you can suck it into a syringe with tube attached. The fluid is located under the air valve cap, in a small pool right on the piston face and under the volume of pressurized air.
> 
> Bath oil will come out of both lowers when you remove 10 mm nuts and strike the rods inside. To fill air side semi-bath, you pour oil through the hole below. To fill RL damper side, you pour through the crown.


That's a sexual response.

Thank you for that!


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Hey, I didn't intend it to sound that way!  It's just that I don't speak English natively. And it shows more often than I'm told so, I suspect. )


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

Going to do my first fork service (hopefully today) on a 2011 Fox F29 100mm. Mainly just replacing the dust wipers. I have a quart of the Fox Green for the basic fluid service.

When using gear oil as a substitute for Float Fluid (5cc pillow pack), is it important that it be synthetic?

An explanation as to why would be appreciated as well.

T.I.A.

_*EDIT:*_ After quite a bit of searching. I decided to go ahead and get the synthetic. The non-synthetic I have is 85-140 and after reading that synthetic was much less temperature sensitve, I decided it was best to buck up, and go with synthetic.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

jeffj,
yes, because of synthetic's better low temperature properties. I guess they don't have to put as much VI modifiers in synthetic oil as they do in mineral, and less additives in a fork oil is a good thing, imho.

On the other hand, synthetic gear oils are usually marketed as top-of-the-line performance products conforming to GL-4 and GL-5 specifications, which means that they contain *lots* of anti-wear additives. I'm not sure whether that's desirable in a fork fluid.. I'd prefer to be able to buy high quality viscous synthetic base oil, without additives.


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## herb1234 (Sep 7, 2011)

any one know the Viscosity Index for the fox green oil? had a look online but i can't seem to find it.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Unknown, but based on the viscosity change from 40 to 100 degrees I'd say around 190.


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## BustedBearing (Apr 28, 2011)

I've been reading this and other threads trying to gather some info on the subject but I've been having some troubles grasping the whole new world of oil concepts.

I've got an '06 Vanilla. If I'm correct it's an open bath system. One leg as the spring the other one has the damper.

The Fork works great with the Green oil when set at 130mm. From factory, even though Fox recommends an heavier rated spring for my weight, I've always used a lighter one (blue) to get proper sag. It always worked fine.

The fork had its travel reduced recently, and if the blue spring was already at its maximum for the 130mm configuration at 100mm I should not be using it. Instead the green spring should be used, however with that full travel was almost impossible to achieve.

With the blue one I get full travel but low speed compression in almost non-existent and the damping feels too harsh.

I wish to try out the fork with another oil type. Something that gives me a softer damping.

I've read so much already that I'm a bit confused. Can you guys help me in the right direction as to what would be a good oil to use on a Fork like the Vanilla? 

I'm not worried about having to top out oil frequently or shorten maintenance intervals. I just wanted a proper lubrication (something I'm feeling that the Green Fox oil isn't providing - too much stiction on the stanchions) and a better low speed compression/damping.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

BustedBearing said:


> I've been reading this and other threads trying to gather some info on the subject but I've been having some troubles grasping the whole new world of oil concepts.
> 
> I've got an '06 Vanilla. If I'm correct it's an open bath system. One leg as the spring the other one has the damper.
> 
> ...


You got full travel with the stock blue spring? or did you cut the blue also?

My coil forks in the past all seem to go up in spring rate when coils are cut off for lowering..


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

DeerhillJDOG said:


> You got full travel with the stock blue spring? or did you cut the blue also?
> 
> My coil forks in the past all seem to go up in spring rate when coils are cut off for lowering..


Spring rate is inversely proportional to the number of active coils in a spring. Remove half the active coils and spring rate doubles.


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## socalMX (Oct 31, 2009)

Subscribed! Will be replacing the uppers on my 2012 36 Float RLC next week to run a longer steerer... Obviously a complete tear down.Any suggestions on fluid or removal of anything fro a smoother running fork?


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

tacubaya said:


> Spring rate is inversely proportional to the number of active coils in a spring. Remove half the active coils and spring rate doubles.


Thanks, that's what I was getting at because the green spring is heavier than the blue

Also lowering the front end more than inch at a time is going to affect a lot of other things


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## sparkyrides (Jan 19, 2012)

Recently seviced my fox f120 rlc fit fork and used motor oil for lower legs and gear oil for air chamber. Thinhgs seem be a bit smoother now. After each ride there is a noticeable amount of fluid around the dust wipers. Is this normal with the use of motor oil or are the dust wipers wore out. The fork was brand new and only has about 35-40 miles on it. Did not have this much oil before switching the motor oil.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

sparkyrides said:


> Recently seviced my fox f120 rlc fit fork and used motor oil for lower legs and gear oil for air chamber. Thinhgs seem be a bit smoother now. After each ride there is a noticeable amount of fluid around the dust wipers. Is this normal with the use of motor oil or are the dust wipers wore out. The fork was brand new and only has about 35-40 miles on it. Did not have this much oil before switching the motor oil.


Are you using Fox seals on it?


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## sparkyrides (Jan 19, 2012)

Yes. it's all stock.


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Normal and good. When you begin to see the witness ring diminish, plan to reset the fluid in the outer chambers.

Our Fox 40 does the same.

PK


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

sparkyrides said:


> Yes. it's all stock.


Fox seals are notorious for leaking. Install Enduro seals. They'll actually keep the oil in and the dirt out.


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## sparkyrides (Jan 19, 2012)

Great news guys. Thanks for the info. Was going to install the new low friction seals on my next serviceor should i go with the Enduros.


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## adi111 (Jan 1, 2012)

How about fox green 7wt(31,[email protected]'C), is that good for rearshock damper?
Is that same as fox yellow 7wt?


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

adi111 said:


> How about fox green 7wt(31,[email protected]'C), is that good for rearshock damper?
> Is that same as fox yellow 7wt?


Fox Green is 47 cSt @ 40 C and Fox yellow doesn't exist.

I recommend Maxima RSF, Torco RSF, Silkolene RSF or Red Line for rear shocks.


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## adi111 (Jan 1, 2012)

tacubaya said:


> Fox Green is 47 cSt @ 40 C and Fox yellow doesn't exist.
> 
> I recommend Maxima RSF, Torco RSF, Silkolene RSF or Red Line for rear shocks.


I have fox green 31,82 [email protected]'C (from CRC)
The bottle look like torco RSF

My 2011 epic fox brain come with yellow fluid. can you give me some advice?


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## adi111 (Jan 1, 2012)

tacubaya said:


> Fox Green is 47 cSt @ 40 C and Fox yellow doesn't exist.
> 
> I recommend Maxima RSF, Torco RSF, Silkolene RSF or Red Line for rear shocks.


I bought from CRC Fox 7 wt 31,82 [email protected]'C 
I think it's red (like torco RSF), but after I open it. Its green


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## adi111 (Jan 1, 2012)

Fox Suspension Synthetic Suspension Fluid | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

adi111 said:


> Fox Suspension Synthetic Suspension Fluid | Buy Online | ChainReactionCycles.com


That's the old stuff, Torco RSF oil. That will work in a rear shock.


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## 434Mtbiker (May 18, 2009)

Beauty! How much did fox charge you for the new 2012 uppers? I have a 2011 Float 32, but would love to have the kashima coat...


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## socalMX (Oct 31, 2009)

Decided to tear down my 2011 36 Float last week as I got some 2012 uppers, I already had the SKF seals installed! First time ever tearing into a fork for me. I decided to try Mobil1 10w30 in the air side with the Fox green in the damper side and WOW....The fork is insanely plush now, so much so I thought my tire was low! Then I thought, oh no its gotta have a ton of brake dive being this nice, not the case as dive is spot on minimal where it should be! I would HIGHLY recommend this to anyone! While it was apart I had a friend who owns a body shop spray a black 2K paint coating on it! 2012 sticker kit from Fox! It went from a beat up white 2011 to this:


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## socalMX (Oct 31, 2009)

slindblom said:


> Beauty! How much did fox charge you for the new 2012 uppers? I have a 2011 Float 32, but would love to have the kashima coat...


Thanks! Got them from a Pinkbike member! Fox charges an arm & a leg, $350+ I think? Almost better off selling the fork and buying another fork in that case! There are uppers out there, just gotta keep your eyes opened!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

socalMX said:


> Decided to tear down my 2011 36 Float last week as I got some 2012 uppers, I already had the SKF seals installed! First time ever tearing into a fork for me. I decided to try Mobil1 10w30 in the air side with the Fox green in the damper side and WOW....The fork is insanely plush now, so much so I thought my tire was low! Then I thought, oh no its gotta have a ton of brake dive being this nice, not the case as dive is spot on minimal where it should be! I would HIGHLY recommend this to anyone! While it was apart I had a friend who owns a body shop spray a black 2K paint coating on it! 2012 sticker kit from Fox! It went from a beat up white 2011 to this:


I've taken a bunch of lip about the "run the factory stuff", "you'll void your warranty", and who knows how many other reasons why not to run the Mobil 1 oil. It works! Works in Showas too.

It clings well enough that you'll think your seals are leaking, but they are not.

Ride and enjoy.

PK


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

socalMX said:


> Decided to tear down my 2011 36 Float last week as I got some 2012 uppers, I already had the SKF seals installed! First time ever tearing into a fork for me. I decided to try Mobil1 10w30 in the air side with the Fox green in the damper side and WOW....The fork is insanely plush now, so much so I thought my tire was low! Then I thought, oh no its gotta have a ton of brake dive being this nice, not the case as dive is spot on minimal where it should be! I would HIGHLY recommend this to anyone! While it was apart I had a friend who owns a body shop spray a black 2K paint coating on it! 2012 sticker kit from Fox! It went from a beat up white 2011 to this:


Doesn't your fork have a sealed damper? If it does, run Mobil1 as your bath oil in both sides.


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## socalMX (Oct 31, 2009)

Yes, just thought id try the air side first! Working awesome...Also, I have no warranty as I bought used.Even if I did, I would rather have a fork that works!


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## Joe-it-all (Apr 6, 2004)

Glad I just tore into mine new'ish '11 160 Float RLC, I had maybe 12cc's combined in the lowers. Foam rings were almost dry to the touch, very lightly lubed. Air piston had plenty. 
ATF'ed the foamies, topped up the lowers with M1. Feels hellva lot better now. Just need to order enduros. Thanks for all the tips in this tread.
-Joe


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## socalMX (Oct 31, 2009)

liljoe76 said:


> Glad I just tore into mine new'ish '11 160 Float RLC, I had maybe 12cc's combined in the lowers. Foam rings were almost dry to the touch, very lightly lubed. Air piston had plenty.
> ATF'ed the foamies, topped up the lowers with M1. Feels hellva lot better now. Just need to order enduros. Thanks for all the tips in this tread.
> -Joe


Cool...Just get the new Fox SKF seals, they are great! SKF has been doing MOTO seals for years!


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

What riders don't realize is that the bath oil is somewhat diminished with use. The performance degrades slowly and is not noticed. Also, people spend some serious money for high end forks, they somehow believe that the cost determines how indestructible they are. 

If you notice the witness ring of fluid getting diminished on the upper tubes, it is time to consider changing the bath oil. Also, one of the best and easiest ways to ensure consistent performance and minimal stiction is to simply hold the fork inverted for a few minutes prior to a ride.

Almost every ride with our Fox 40 on the Ventana tandem, I'll flip the bike inverted onto the handlebars while putting on riding gear. This relubricates the upper bushings, foam rings and seals.

On a single bike, just hold the rear brake and set the bike vertical while you hold it there. ZYour friends will have no idea and just think you are goofing off. If you are prone to crashing, learn to release the bars so the bike sits inverted while you lay on the ground gasping for breath that was slammed from your body.

PK


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## brankulo (Aug 29, 2005)

liljoe76 said:


> ATF'ed the foamies, topped up the lowers with M1.
> -Joe


what does ATF mean? also which mobil 1 are you guys using? whe i do google search i get few different 10w30 mobile 1 oils. my fork is fairly new (2 months), do i need to replace the seals? can i reuse crush washer? if no what can i substitute it with? i know it comes with seals but dont want to buy new seals if i dont have to.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

ATF = Automatic Transmission Fluid


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## BitterDave (Nov 27, 2007)

I've used Mobil 5w-40 and 0w-40 on my Rockshox forks before and can say that it works better than Torco and Maxima as a lower-leg lubrication oil. However, Liquimoly Synthoil 5w-40 works better than Mobil 1.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

PMK said:


> What riders don't realize is that the bath oil is somewhat diminished with use. The performance degrades slowly and is not noticed. Also, people spend some serious money for high end forks, they somehow believe that the cost determines how indestructible they are.
> 
> If you notice the witness ring of fluid getting diminished on the upper tubes, it is time to consider changing the bath oil. Also, one of the best and easiest ways to ensure consistent performance and minimal stiction is to simply hold the fork inverted for a few minutes prior to a ride.
> 
> ...


These are brilliant pieces of advice.

The upper bushing (not the wipers or even the seals) is where most stiction comes from and it's really difficult under riding conditions to get it lubed properly.

The upper bushing is most of times kind of binded to the stanchion when you put your weight on the bike. Only the film strength of oil prevents the bushing to come into direct contact with your stanchions.

Rant ahead...

Flame suit on, it's my personal uneducated opinion and I'm not trying to convince anyone... to me, the amounts of oil fork manufacturers use nowadays for semi-bath are ridiculous for the reasons exposed by PMK (wipers are made to keep dirt out, not exactly oil in). To me, 10cc's are a joke when you consider all that oil has to cover the stanchion and upper and lower bushings.

Forks were plusher in the old days of open bath. Yeah, they have come a long way in terms of weight, stiffness and maybe spring/damper performance. But they have fallen miserably in durability, service intervals, etc. But I guess that's what you get when you want racing performance for everyday use. You just can't have them both.

I try to put in my fork as much semi-bath as the leg can take for those reasons.


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## brankulo (Aug 29, 2005)

BitterDave said:


> However, Liquimoly Synthoil 5w-40 works better than Mobil 1.


in terms of what? gotta see what they have available in wall mart today. any idea on crush washer? does it need to be replaced?


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

brankulo said:


> any idea on crush washer? does it need to be replaced?


Not necessarily. I have reused many times mine.

Just don't destroy them when you get them out.


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## BustedBearing (Apr 28, 2011)

DeerhillJ said:


> You got full travel with the stock blue spring? or did you cut the blue also?
> 
> My coil forks in the past all seem to go up in spring rate when coils are cut off for lowering..


No springs were cut.

At 130, Fox recommended the green one for my weight. With it the shock became to harsh. LSC was almost non-existent. Impossible to get a proper SAG for a plush ride (30mm), only around 20mm were achieavable even with no preload whatsoever. Thats the firm setting recommended by FOX.

Used the blue one, recommended for people with a maximum weight a bit under my own. Things worked great, proper sag of 30mm was gotten with around 5 clicks of preload, 20mm with a few more. Plush ride, excellent LSC and even better HSC. Rebound obviously had to be adjusted according to a firm or plush ride.

Reset the fork for 100mm. As the blue spring was already underrated for my weight at 130, even though it worked perfectly, I though (and following the manual recommendation) that the gree one should be correct since its spring rate at 100 would perform similar to the blue at 130.

Wrong, the suspension felt like it was rigid. 5mm sag with no preload, and no LSC whatsoever.

Installed the blue once again. I can achieve full travel, proper sag should be 20mm for a plush ride, i can only get 15mm with no preload. LSC is poor. Its there, but doesn't feel right.

Talked to a technician which mentioned the fact that the oil wattage and or volumes could have something to it.

Don't really feel like trying the yellow spring, the softer one, according to the manual it is way to soft for my weight and if I'm getting full travel with blue, yellow may leave me bottoming out. But I reckon I'll do it for the sake of trying to find whats going on.

Therefore, I've came here to try and understand a bit more how different oils allow for different feels. Unless I have any spacer misplaced inside the fork legs the oil being 10w instead of its original 7.5w may have something to do with it. At least thats what I'm thinking for now.


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## Deerhill (Dec 21, 2009)

BustedBearing said:


> No springs were cut.
> 
> At 130, Fox recommended the green one for my weight. With it the shock became to harsh. LSC was almost non-existent. Impossible to get a proper SAG for a plush ride (30mm), only around 20mm were achieavable even with no preload whatsoever. Thats the firm setting recommended by FOX.
> 
> ...


Think what you're describing is related to how the damper behaves because there is a point where the rebound will ruin your compression adjustments.

Too fast rebound adjustment affects the compression, you will lose LSC because the oil flows trough the rebound piston instead of gong through the compression side.

Try this, close R and HSC all the way and open LSC all the way.

Open R one or a couple clicks if the fork is retardedly slow to extend as you don't need it to react like this for anything.

Go out and ride and add LSC until you get it dialed... you might take off some HSC as you start to get it close to where you like. And you might speed up the R a click or two

It can kind of be a balancing act with oil flow between R and LSC, and where you want HSC to blow off

*sometimes I will use a lighter weight oil and slightly stiffer spring so I can get the rebound closed enough for the compressions to work well. Or might remove one of the HSR shims if R slows too much in the process


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## BitterDave (Nov 27, 2007)

brankulo said:


> in terms of what? gotta see what they have available in wall mart today. any idea on crush washer? does it need to be replaced?


In terms of smoothness and break-away friction. I doubt you will find Liquimoly at Walmart. However, Walmart might carry Royal Purple motor oil, which is another oil I would like to try.


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## brankulo (Aug 29, 2005)

yeah, would need to order it. will stick with mobil 1 for now as that most likely is available locally. will try liquimoly next


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## BustedBearing (Apr 28, 2011)

DeerhillJ said:


> Think what you're describing is related to how the damper behaves because there is a point where the rebound will ruin your compression adjustments.
> 
> Too fast rebound adjustment affects the compression, you will lose LSC because the oil flows trough the rebound piston instead of gong through the compression side.
> 
> ...


It's about a Vanilla R suspension. It has no dials to adjust LSC or HSC. Only rebound and pre-load are externally adjustable. The speed variable compression adjustments are confluent to the overall suspension setup.

My biggest complaint at the moment is with fine terrain reading. The shock is too harsh. Obviously when taking big hits it uses travel and also obviously I've fiddled with rebound. Externally I can't do any better at the moment.

Let me add that this fork has always been a breeze to adjust.

Rebound half-way through. Sit on bike and measure sag (personally I like a plush ride, so, 30mm at 130mm travel). After sag is correct, adjust rebound for a correct feel and behaviour. And thats has always done the trick...

And I've worked with other forks which have LSC and HSC adjustment and never had troubles pinpointing the correct configurations for my riding style.

Something is wrong here imho. Either at the last maintenance where it was reduced, the lbs mechanic misplaced a spacer, forcing the spring to be compressed inside the stanchion. Or too much oil was added and it is ruining the damper feel. Or as a last idea, the fact that the oil wattage is superior makes the damper behave differently and so, the oil amount to be added to the damper leg should be slightly less than the recommended amount.

I'm thinking about the following plan:

> open it up, check for correct spacer positioning
> perform maintenance and re-fill with lighter oil
> try it out

If I'm successfull, no more need to worry. If not, then I'll do some more testing, like changing spring or at the very last option, revert it back to 130mm, or to 120mm if possible with different spacers, have to ask around about that first.

What led me to this thread was, what 7.5w oil could i safely use on this fork, because I'm also experiencing terrible stiction issues with the 10w Fox oil/seals kit.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Warp said:


> I try to put in my fork as much semi-bath as the leg can take for those reasons.


Just be careful not to put in too much and pop the seals. I blow some oil past the seals on my Nixon's every-time I take it gondola shuttling (only 2-3 times a season). I haven't had any unseat yet.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Just be careful not to put in too much and pop the seals. I blow some oil past the seals on my Nixon's every-time I take it gondola shuttling (only 2-3 times a season). I haven't had any unseat yet.


Oh, yeah... But I'll keep it in mind for my next service.


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## BustedBearing (Apr 28, 2011)

Well, for the ones that have been following my posts here and on another thread dedicated to some other issues with my suspension, I've ordered some Motorex Racing Fork Oil 7.5W and I'm going to service the suspension and replace the Fox Green oil it had been using with it, if theres even any inside! I'll be using the same SKF (obviously new ones) seals so the only difference will be the oil. After trying it out, I'll share my feelings about the difference.

_____________________________________________________
EDIT

Already have some more news. If you want to check them out, drop by:

Thread next door where I report the service done and findings.


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## vichila (Jul 26, 2011)

i am considering using a 5W30 motor oil like some of the guys here recommended.
my only open question isnt there a problem with the foaming of this engine oil?


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## BustedBearing (Apr 28, 2011)

When I was researching about oil I did read about using engine oils, mainly the Mobil 1. Seems it sticks to stuff better, mainly on open bath systems it is said to work alright. However even though I read a lot about oils when researching this subject I didn't get to know much about foam issues... I'm really sorry I can't help you more. There is another thread dedicated to oils around this sub-forum, have a look at it, maybe one of the guys there may have some more insight into the subject!


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

vichila said:


> i am considering using a 5W30 motor oil like some of the guys here recommended.
> my only open question isnt there a problem with the foaming of this engine oil?


Why are you worried about foaming. It's not being used in the damping cartridge.
I'd be more worried about your car engine if it foamed.


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## Harqen (Nov 3, 2011)

Hi all,
This is my first post here on mtbr after a long time just reading. However, this time I can't seem to find the answer I'm looking for.
I have a Fox Talas 36 R from this year and I recently made an oil change. The LBS mechanic told me to buy any 10 wt suspension fluid to use instead of the Fox 10 wt Green and I ended up buying a bottle of Motul 10 wt Medium Factory Line suspension fluid.
I disassembled the fork and cleaned it and then put it together and poured the new oil in. The problem is that the fork now lacks small bump compliance completly and feels slow and unresponsive in general. The rebound is working as far as I can tell but it's the compression side of things that isn't.
I now found a table listing alot of different suspension fluids and the motul oil I bought seems to differ alot from the Fox 10 wt Green. But, the listed cSt @40C for the Motul oil is far lower than the 47 something for the Fox Green. Should this not result in the opposite effect, zero compression damping?

Sorry if my question is already answered somewhere else but when i try to google it I end up with to many results that are irrelevant.

Thanks in advance!


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## peanutaxis (Aug 19, 2011)

Fox probably just got Torco to mix a few of their products together to make them a bespoke oil (green 10 wt). There is no way that Fox _needed_ a bespoke oil, they just would have done it so that they can fool the customer into thinking it is a special and necessary oil so that they can charge more for it.


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## Buckholz (Nov 27, 2010)

peanutaxis said:


> Fox probably just got Torco to mix a few of their products together to make them a bespoke oil (green 10 wt). There is no way that Fox _needed_ a bespoke oil, they just would have done it so that they can fool the customer into thinking it is a special and necessary oil so that they can charge more for it.


My conclusion to all this is:

Fox Green 10wt - use any low VI 10wt fork oil. These are oils designed for older style open bath forks. A low VI oil is a bit slipperier

Fox Red 10wt - use a high VI 10wt suspension oil. This is an oil used for cartridge forks or rear shocks, but 10wt is heavier than most dirtbikes use for suspension rebuilds, might be a bit harder to find. The high VI gives the oil viscosity stability over a wide temperature range, which is likely in a small volume closed oil system that is getting shear worked (like a FIT chamber)

Fox pillow blue 5cc stuff - my shop gave me them for free, but suspect folks recommendation of a thick motor/gear oil would work fine.

My background is 25 yrs of dirtbike racing, rebuilding suspension, Mech Eng. But this will be the first time I tear into my Fox 32 and 36 float forks. Thanks for all the info.

Does my summary make sense?


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## cridom (Sep 22, 2012)

will a 5w30 mobil 1 do the same great job of lubing the lowers as a oil bath than a 10w30 mobil 1? Im about to do an oil change but here they don't sell the 10w30.


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## peanutaxis (Aug 19, 2011)

Buckholz said:


> My conclusion to all this is:
> 
> Fox Green 10wt - use any low VI 10wt fork oil. These are oils designed for older style open bath forks. A low VI oil is a bit slipperier


Except that the number expressed before the 'wt' is supposed to show the viscosity. E.g. 5wt oil is less viscous than 10wt oil which is less viscous that 15wt oil. So the notion that there are different 10wt oils with different viscosity is self-contradictory.

The only other option - which I stated earlier - is that the number represents the _average_ viscosity of the oils that make up a product. And Fox would have put two or more viscosity oils together for an open bath system to get the oil to do both damping and lubricating. Their 10wt oil, therefore, is more likely to merely be a mix of, say, 50% 15wt and 50% 5wt oils. The 15wt being better for damping, the 5wt being better for splashing up onto the bushings.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

cridom said:


> will a 5w30 mobil 1 do the same great job of lubing the lowers as a oil bath than a 10w30 mobil 1? Im about to do an oil change but here they don't sell the 10w30.


From memory, the viscosity at 40C is in the order of a few cSt, it should work the same.
Good lubrication fluid.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

peanutaxis said:


> Except that the number expressed before the 'wt' is supposed to show the viscosity. E.g. 5wt oil is less viscous than 10wt oil which is less viscous that 15wt oil. So the notion that there are different 10wt oils with different viscosity is self-contradictory.


Well, most 2.35" tyres are supposed to measure 2.35" and a size 8 shoe is supposed to fit like a size 8, but every manufacturer has a different interpretation of what sizing is on both cases and oils are no different.

Look at the viscosity index at 40C of the oil if you want an adequate basis of comparison.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

peanutaxis said:


> Except that the number expressed before the 'wt' is supposed to show the viscosity. E.g. 5wt oil is less viscous than 10wt oil which is less viscous that 15wt oil. So the notion that there are different 10wt oils with different viscosity is self-contradictory.
> 
> The only other option - which I stated earlier - is that the number represents the _average_ viscosity of the oils that make up a product. And Fox would have put two or more viscosity oils together for an open bath system to get the oil to do both damping and lubricating. Their 10wt oil, therefore, is more likely to merely be a mix of, say, 50% 15wt and 50% 5wt oils. The 15wt being better for damping, the 5wt being better for splashing up onto the bushings.


The way I see it, the "wt" notation for viscosity is wildly different across brands even within the same type of oil (oil for hydraulic systems, for instance, is one such type; motor oil, another type; gear oil, yet another). The better way to compare oils for viscosity is to go directly after "cSt at 40 C" and VI.

And when 2 different viscosities of the same brand, type and additive composition of oil are mixed in a workshop, the resultant oil, 10wt in your example, is not different from what the brand itself produces and bottles as 10wt of that type. That is, the mix does not behave as 2 separate oils, one at 5wt, another at 15wt, anywhere in the fork. The damper sees it as 10wt, and the bushings also see it as 10wt.


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## Buckholz (Nov 27, 2010)

Sorry, I should have elaborated a bit on what a VI is.

VI = viscosity improver

All oils thin as they heat. Oils with low VI thin the most, what folks call a "straight grade" oil. Like 10wt or 30wt oil. Oils will lots of VI component are listed for engine oils like 10W-50, where at body temp 37C ~ 40C that oil would be the viscosity of 10wt oil, but at 100C (boiling water) that same oil wouldn't have thinned out as much, it would be the thickness of a 50 weight straight grade oil at 100C. So, a 50wt oil at 100C is still thinner (lower viscosity) than the 10wt oil at 40C, just hasn't thinned out as much as the 10wt oil.

Apparently, something I learned here, oils with lots of VI component aren't as "slipperly" and maybe don't cling as well, thus Fox's thinking that a low VI 10wt oil is good for the bath, where the oil doesn't change temperature with use, where as a high VI oil is needed in the fit cartridge, where the oil heats up a bunch with use.

Spectro oils has a great chart comparing various brands of suspension oils. They also historically listed a relative amount of VI improver for each oil.

The other thing is, well, with mass produced oils,and as others have mentioned, different oil blenders, there are moderate differnces in viscosity of a given 10wt oil.

Here are a couple of charts for your reading enjoyment.
Viscosity Charts - Bob is the Oil Guy 
http://www.spectro-oils.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Shock-Fork-Fluids-comparison.pdf


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

there is also this chart

Marketing, Public Relations & Press Release Communications by MediaTurbo

and the shock oil wiki

Suspension Fluid - Pvdwiki

and some other oil info

Peter Verdone


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## Udi (Jan 25, 2008)

Buckholz said:


> Fox Green 10wt - use any low VI 10wt fork oil. These are oils designed for older style open bath forks. A low VI oil is a bit slipperier


That is an incorrect generalization. I have tried fluids in Fox lowers that aren't particularly high in VI but have still had below average sliding performance.

In my experience _some_ high VI fluids do have poor sliding performance, but you can't draw from that that low VI fluids have good sliding performance, there is no real basis apart from a vague assumption that high VI fluids _may_ contain additives detrimental to friction reduction.

FWIW the 10wt Green oil has a [email protected] of 47 and [email protected] of 11.70 from which I calculate the VI to be 255. It's not the highest but it's reasonably high for a 47cSt fluid and amongst the higher VI numbers for fluids of that viscosity. Thus it does not even fit the "low VI = good sliding" generalization.

The fluid has excellent sliding performance, and contrary to one of the earlier posts is *not* a recoloured existing Torco product, as the numerical specifications do not match any existing Torco product. I believe it is produced by Torco to Fox's specifications.

I have found it to be excellent for bushing applications (in both Fox and RS where I have tested it) and if funds allow, I would just use it. If not, the general mtbr population seems to like Mobil1, however keep in mind that different weights and versions of M1 can have very different chemical compositions also.


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## Buckholz (Nov 27, 2010)

hahhaha, heck I'm not sure how one tests sliding performance for a fork bath oil. I do know that I have been running Torco full synthetic SSO snowmobile oil in all my two stroke dirtbikes and snowmobiles for the last year or so, and am happy with the product. I also have sititng out on my shelves cheap ol fork oil from BelRay and Spectro, expensive high VI suspension fluids from Spectro and Silkolene/Sachs all in a variety of weights.

I don't want to go buy some special Fox oil that comes from the special Fox refinery that comes from the Fox oil rig....... ;o)

I was just looking for the reason why Fox would recommend two different 10 wt oils. I believe that it is because of the different demands on the oil.

Tackling my forks tonight, went on a night ride with the kid last night, his first, loved the new lights and motion LED systems, my ol' Fox 36 Floats worked like crap, I am way overdue for a rebuild. I would have done it last night, but I took the dogs for a night pedal too, the little one got bit on the ass by a coyote, so my night was spent at the Vet getting the dogs hindquarters irrigated and sutured up.

Mom's conclusion to the night ride = kid can go again, but the little dog stays home! And I need to rebuild my Fox 36 forks!


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Harqen said:


> Hi all,
> This is my first post here on mtbr after a long time just reading. However, this time I can't seem to find the answer I'm looking for.
> I have a Fox Talas 36 R from this year and I recently made an oil change. The LBS mechanic told me to buy any 10 wt suspension fluid to use instead of the Fox 10 wt Green and I ended up buying a bottle of Motul 10 wt Medium Factory Line suspension fluid.
> I disassembled the fork and cleaned it and then put it together and poured the new oil in. The problem is that the fork now lacks small bump compliance completly and feels slow and unresponsive in general. The rebound is working as far as I can tell but it's the compression side of things that isn't.
> ...


Old post, but no-one seems to have responded.
Essentially the oil you bought "suspension fluid" is formulated to be more stable at higher temperatures and generally these don't lubricate as well. For a rear shock they'd be excellent.
The oil you need is "fork oil" which doesn't need to take temperatures as high but are generally formulated to lubricate quite well.

This is what Buckholz etc are currently discussing. Fox green 10wt was the better fork oil, Fox red 10wt was the better high temp suspension fluid.


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## Udi (Jan 25, 2008)

That's not really correct. Fox FIT dampers (like the one in the 36R) are sealed cartridges that are physically separated from the lubrication bath and they use the Fox Red 10wt oil just like their rear shocks - which happens to be rebadged Silkolene Pro RSF 10wt. The FIT cartridges are low volume and require a high VI fluid just like a rear shock.

The Green oil is used primarily for bushing lubrication, and as damper fluid in some of the open bath forks where damping oil cannot be separated. I found it works better in lowers than alternative products that I've tested, and therefore don't mind spending a little extra for it - but to each their own. Fox isn't forcing anyone to buy the stuff, but there is no off-shelf product that is identical, and in fairness it is priced reasonably if you live in the US (in EU and AU it is ~US$48 a quart!). The damper fluid on the other hand is a rebadged existing product, so if the Silkolene RSF 10 is cheaper - buy it, I do.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

PMK reports Silkolene Pro RSF doesn't lubricate very well and like sot get sticky when exposed to air:
http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/best-fork-oil-poll-please-vote-424088.html#post4580905

I'll trust PMK on this. Maybe Silkolene has reformulated since then, but there are enough other good options I don't need to need to try it.

There's a lot more going on with suspension oils than just VI, so instead of focusing on one aspect of the oils, I think you're better off finding other user's experience with the various oils and going from there. For shocks I'm personally a fan of Torco, Maxima, and if you can stand the smell Mobil1 ATF.


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## fermenter (Feb 19, 2008)

I noticed Redline suspension fluid also get sticky when exposed to air. Mixed a blend up for a Marzocchi 66 and it was notchy in the parking lot but nice on the trail. We have since gone back to Spectro for that one. I am only using Redline in sealed dampers now. 

Redline Med works perfect in my 36 FIT damper. Doesn't work as well in a friends 36 FIT, we are going to mix a little thicker for his. (Fit damper in a 2007 fork???) Might not be stock.

Just set up an older open bath 32 RLC with the Fox green in the damping side and it loves it. I think they have spec'd a fine product for open bath dampers.


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## Udi (Jan 25, 2008)

bad mechanic said:


> PMK reports Silkolene Pro RSF doesn't lubricate very well and like sot get sticky when exposed to air


Where did I disagree with that?
I was pointing out that Silkolene is the spec for their SEALED dampers (rear shocks and FIT cartridges) - both are scenarios that don't affect the sliding interface between stanchion and bushings/seals.

I completely agree with PMK that Silkolene is a bad choice for lower lubrication and have had identical experiences to him with the product in lowers (i.e. don't do it). They are however an excellent high-VI fluid for damper-only applications.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

Udi said:


> Where did I disagree with that?
> I was pointing out that Silkolene is the spec for their SEALED dampers (rear shocks and FIT cartridges) - both are scenarios that don't affect the sliding interface between stanchion and bushings/seals.
> 
> I completely agree with PMK that Silkolene is a bad choice for lower lubrication and have had identical experiences to him with the product in lowers (i.e. don't do it). They are however an excellent high-VI fluid for damper-only applications.


There are still parts moving against each other in a damper and it can still introduce friction. When there are other alternatives which work very well, why even deal an oil that has an issue like that?


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## Thimk (May 25, 2007)

M1 Synthetic 10W30 for both lowers (not damper) in '12 36 FiT Float... Yay, or nay?


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## Matty F (Sep 25, 2011)

Buckholz said:


> hahhaha, heck I'm not sure how one tests sliding performance for a fork bath oil.


I tried measuring before. I thoroughly cleaned my fork of all bath oil, then fully circulated different oils through the bath (I have a FIT damper fork, so damping was not an issue), then hooked a Park Tool scale over the thru-axle to measure the amount of force needed to overcome the initial stiction. I repeatedly shook the fork and spun it around to keep the oil circulating and measured each oil's performance probably 10 times or so.

Fox Green had the best results. I also tested Mobil 1 motor oil (I believe it was either 5w30 or 10w50, something with a low VI) and Rock Shox 15wt (Torco RFF 20wt according to PVDwiki). I don't recall whether the Mobil 1 or Rock Shox worked better. I apologize for not having a better recollection of the results, but I was mostly just trying to figure out which was the best to use for my bike and my customer's bikes, and I remember well enough that Fox Green was the clear winner. I also recall there being perceivable differences just sliding the fork up and down with your hands.


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## Udi (Jan 25, 2008)

bad mechanic said:


> There are still parts moving against each other in a damper and it can still introduce friction. When there are other alternatives which work very well, why even deal an oil that has an issue like that?


You're building a straw man, the oil has no friction issues in dampers (alone) vs. any other oil I've tested. The reason it seems to not work well in lowers is that it results in some sort of reaction with some lower bushing coatings - particularly RS.

Pro RSF is a high VI fluid. The only other oil with similar VI values readily available in a full (~5) range of viscosities is Red Line, and I have read and experienced similar issues with stiction increases when this is used in fork lowers.

Both of these oils are designed for sealed dampers, particularly those with low fluid volumes. If that does not describe your damper, then by all means use any oil you want. However for a FIT damper, or any rear shock, I would recommend sticking with a high VI fluid to maintain reasonable viscosity as temperature fluctuates. Of course Torco and others offer similarly suitable products - in my experience there is no appreciable performance benefit (or deficit) in comparison to Silkolene - in _this_ application.

Also, I'll respectfully disagree on your method of shock oil choice. Sliding friction due to oil choice is rarely a concern in rear shocks, just like in FIT cartridges. However heat is a significant problem, and therefore VI *should* indeed be the first thing considered (after viscosity itself of course) when choosing a rear shock fluid.

In case someone else misconstrues this post - I'll reiterate that I'm talking about damping fluid in isolated dampers here. If you want the best sliding performance in fork lowers, Fox Green 10wt is your friend.


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## rave81 (Mar 1, 2013)

is possible to use Rock shox 10wt suspension fluid in Fox Float 32 29er?


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## Matty F (Sep 25, 2011)

rave81 said:


> is possible to use Rock shox 10wt suspension fluid in Fox Float 32 29er?


If you have a sealed FIT damper, or an Open Cartridge damper, then yes. If you have an Open Bath damper, then no.


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

Spectro® Golden Cartridge Fork 125/150 that marz use seems pretty slippery for a cartridge oil. I still use RSF 10 where Fox green is specd as open cartridge oil without problems or stiction. There's rat loads of oil in there to get to the bushings as compared to say a Fit cartridge fork or RS Rev or Pike. For bath oil only I use a slipprry good motorcycle oil that still has loads of anti wera additives compared to car oil.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Don't anti-wear additives start working at loads highly exceeding those that bushing/stanchion contact areas can encounter? (I'm not sure myself about it.)


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

I think your talking specifically [EP] Extreme pressure additives. From memory ZDDP is primarily a antiwear/ friction additive which has an added bonus of having a little EP additive characteristics?
On my Dt swiss Forks I use the specd Motorex Supergliss 100 which definitely smells of EP additives like gearbox / diff oil. It's feels like a low viscosity gearbox oil. I haven't used it on other forks. DT don't slot their bushings so I can't see why it wouldn't work on other forks. It's no cheaper than Fox green oil though.


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## mvdlans (Feb 19, 2012)

First of all, thanks a lot for these tons of info! I'm about to strip my Talas III R 160 for the second time since it is far to harsh for the small bumps. Would you recon 5Wt in the damper would smoother the ride?
Definitely going to pour some 5W30 full synthetic in the open bath for better lubrication.

Another thing, after a couple of months the Talas system is messed up. I don't have the 160/130/100 but more of 155/145/125. I'm suspecting oil leaking from the air chamber in to the Talas system. Anyone had the same problem?


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## JXG (Oct 9, 2013)

zippy895 said:


> FOX PILLOW PACK====MOBIL 1 75W90.synthetic gear oil


I compared these side-by-side. The pillow pack is blue and without noticeable odor. The MOBIL 1 75W90 is green and has the distinctive sulfurous reek of hypoid gear lube.

So they don't seem to be the same. Are they really functionally equivalent inside a Fox air can?

Thanks


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

And there's also RWC red oil for this same purpose.

I'm tempted to try thickened silicone oil (such as LiquiMoly Silikon-Fett) for such air chambers TBH.


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

jg1990 said:


> I compared these side-by-side. The pillow pack is blue and without noticeable odor. The MOBIL 1 75W90 is green and has the distinctive sulfurous reek of hypoid gear lube.
> 
> So they don't seem to be the same. Are they really functionally equivalent inside a Fox air can?
> 
> Thanks


There are all kinds of claims touted about what the equivalent oil for Fox Float Fluid and RWC Air Piston Lube. There is no equivalent. Both are made by Torco and are specifically designed for use on top of the air piston. One is red and the other is blue but that color difference it's strictly due to dye choice--they are the same product. It's not available in a quart bottle (you can purchase a 5 gallon drum, however). I'm not saying nothing else can be used. All I'm saying is that for the record, statements like "Fox Float Fluid = X," unless X is Torco BASF, are incorrect. Same for RWC APL.


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## JXG (Oct 9, 2013)

Thank you for the info! I managed to pour out the pillow-pack oil when closing up my shock the first time I replaced the seals. So I substituted MOBIL 1 75W90. It seems to work "OK." 

In the future I will have extra pillow packs on hand. Given the low service interval that will be fairly soon: a few weeks at the rate I ride. And given the overall maintenance costs the authentic Fox lube seems worth buying. 

I love my FS bike but I now have a better understanding of why some folks are going back to simpler technology


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## Matty F (Sep 25, 2011)

Chris2fur said:


> It's not available in a quart bottle (you can purchase a 5 gallon drum, however).


Why would anyone need a quart of that stuff at a consumer level? At 5cc per fork rebuild (less for a rear shock), that would be 200 rebuilds to a quart. As a bike shop suspension mechanic who does several rebuilds per week, I think I get the good chunk of a season from one of the 8oz bottles. If I were using it for my self, 8oz would last me for many years


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Chris2fur, can you tell us what is special about that air piston oil that makes it a better choice than similar viscosity, synthetic motor or gear oil?


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Chris2fur, can you tell us what is special about that air piston oil that makes it a better choice than similar viscosity, synthetic motor or gear oil?


Well, not exactly, other than gear oil is for a certain temp and pressure range that doesn't match the typical conditions inside an air spring. BASF stands for stands for Bicycle Air Spring Fluid because it was formulated for those conditions. I could possibly get the actual product specs from Torco.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

That would be good, Chris. :thumbsup:


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

New oil from Fox, designed for lubrication purposes only. Very high viscosity, insane amount of tackifiers and enriched with molybdenum.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Oh. It may make sense to use this for all the nicer semi-bath forks then. Before I try silicone-PTFE grease for my short travel always-on-platform ones, that is.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> New oil from Fox, designed for lubrication purposes only. Very high viscosity, insane amount of tackifiers and enriched with molybdenum.
> 
> View attachment 893985


What is the Cst? The oils I use for bushing lubrication are all over 100Cst at 40C.


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Dougal said:


> What is the Cst? The oils I use for bushing lubrication are all over 100Cst at 40C.


98.90 cSt at 40°C and 13.6 cSt at 100°C.


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

I've been waiting for the 20 wt gold to become availabe online. Anywhere yet?


I see Formula use BALLISTOL for bath oli and air piston lube in the 35's.I thought it was just a corrosion preventative..I've never seen it's specs, but I thought it was pretty basic stuff.Unless formula are kicking for the greeny prize it must have some property they want in a fork lube. I've got an aerosol kicking around in the shed somewhere.


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## Matty F (Sep 25, 2011)

It should be noted that Fox has released a technical service bulletin stating that if you have a 32mm fork, you must upgrade to their new Gold compatible 32mm wiper seals in order to use the gold lubricant. 34, 36 and 40mm forks are all okay to use the Gold lube as long as they are the low-friction SKF seals.

FORK- New 20wt. Gold Bath Oil | Bike Help Center | FOX


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

So, not every seal can work with the new oil. I wonder why: chemical incompatibility or mechanical one?


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## LCW (May 5, 2008)

tacubaya said:


> New oil from Fox, designed for lubrication purposes only. Very high viscosity, insane amount of tackifiers and enriched with molybdenum.
> 
> View attachment 893985


Anywhere to buy online yet? Haven't been able to find...


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## Matty F (Sep 25, 2011)

I haven't seen any online specifically, but my Canadian distributor has plenty available to order. I would guess that major distributors and shops globally have it available to them.


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## Warp (May 24, 2004)

J. Random Psycho said:


> So, not every seal can work with the new oil. I wonder why: chemical incompatibility or mechanical one?


Yeah, What up? Also not recommended for air springs.:skep:

My 32 Float seems much happier on Mobil 1 5w-30 than stock Green Fox, but if this 20wt Factory oil is good stuff, I would like to give it a go but do I really need new wipers?

I still have a set of RS ones around that could use as sacrifice units... :skep:


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

J. Random Psycho said:


> So, not every seal can work with the new oil. I wonder why: chemical incompatibility or mechanical one?


Marketing compatibility?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Dougal said:


> Marketing compatibility?


But this should be easy to expose: just ride with new oil and old seals, and see what happens. If nothing bad happens then Fox reputation will suffer, and they should have foreseen this.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

J. Random Psycho said:


> But this should be easy to expose: just ride with new oil and old seals, and see what happens. If nothing bad happens then Fox reputation will suffer, and they should have foreseen this.


I haven't found an oil yet that eats seals. I've even used that evil creature ATF.


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## Chris2fur (Jan 13, 2004)

The oil contains Moly. Perhaps the old seals are impregnated with Moly and therefore the oil softens them? Just an idea. At one time a batch of Enduro wipers was run with Moly added to the Polyurethane. It was probably not an original idea and has no doubt been added to other seal materials. 

I've been asked if the gold oil will play well with the Enduro seals and wipers. I have to say the only way to know for sure is test it, which we have not done yet. However, I can't imagine either material currently in use would be affected.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Dougal said:


> I haven't found an oil yet that eats seals. I've even used that evil creature ATF.


I typically fill open bath forks with Mobil ATF SHC, there was no seal damage with Marzocchis, Rock Shox Darts, and Foxes (pre-SKF seals though). But remember those thin black Rock Shox bottom out bumpers they put on the bottom of their lowers? I saw those deteriorate from some motor oils that I used for semi-bath lubrication. Rubber turns brittle (fold it and it snaps, whereas new ones bend, resist and then restore shape) and its surface becomes rough. They aren't a critical part of course.


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## bad mechanic (Jun 21, 2006)

I've used and still use Mobil 1 ATF in certain applications, but it is the most foul smelling oil I've ever used; it's like liquefied rotten meat.


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## shopcat_cycles (Dec 28, 2007)

Finally a suitable bath oil. I think I'll try it with my current SKF seals.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bad mechanic said:


> I've used and still use Mobil 1 ATF in certain applications, but it is the most foul smelling oil I've ever used; it's like liquefied rotten meat.


Interesting. The worst I've ever found was in a Showa fork on an old Honda. That was 20 years ago and I still remember.


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## mahavishnu (Mar 7, 2013)

Got a question,, Fox strictly said use the new skf low friction seal only with the new 20wt gold pancake syrup oil. I don't know if that's marketing but if it's not then shouldn't there be a new wipers/scraper seal for the air piston as well? Since this also comes in contact with the splash lube in the lowers


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

mahavishnu said:


> Got a question,, Fox strictly said use the new skf low friction seal only with the new 20wt gold pancake syrup oil. I don't know if that's marketing but if it's not then shouldn't there be a new wipers/scraper seal for the air piston as well? Since this also comes in contact with the splash lube in the lowers


That all depends on how cynical you are about marketing.


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## mahavishnu (Mar 7, 2013)

I got issues before with the oil migrating past the air pistons, i had that sorted already by replacing it with two wipers. Just want to make sure the new oil wont swell those as well


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## Sf100al (May 21, 2014)

I just changed the oil in my 2013 fox fork(left the old seals in) and I used a 10wt synthetic oil provided by my LBS. Not fox brand, but is working fine. It was half the price of fox oil and it is no different (except for color).


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## cadoretteboat (Aug 27, 2011)

10wt from one brand can be 7.5 for an other. Better to know the Cst .
Choice of oil for forks with open bath (o/c) is crucial.
One of multiples references:
Oil Viscosity Explained


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## yourrealdad (May 17, 2012)

So I have looked everywhere, but can't find anything. It sounds like this 20wt gold was designed for the Kashima coated forks. Does that matter? Can I use it on my non kashima instead of the green as long as I have the new seals?

Thanks


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

yourrealdad said:


> So I have looked everywhere, but can't find anything. It sounds like this 20wt gold was designed for the Kashima coated forks. Does that matter? Can I use it on my non kashima instead of the green as long as I have the new seals?
> 
> Thanks


I read somewhere that the new fox seals have lips designed to deal with the thicker bath oil. That, and the fact that you shouldn't pour 20wt oil into a open bath damper, are the only issues. Otherwise, I've had great results rebuilding Fox forks using good quality 20wt as bath oil (Torco RFF 20wt) with the new seals. For, FIT cartridges, I get great results with Torco RSF Medium for riders 175 and over, and Maxima Racing Blue 7.5wt for lighter weight riders. I get feedback that the Maxima Blue really smooths out chatter and still retains good rebound control for lighter riders using purple springs and softer.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

bing! said:


> I read somewhere that the new fox seals have lips designed to deal with the thicker bath oil. That, and the fact that you shouldn't pour 20wt oil into a open bath damper, are the only issues. Otherwise, I've had great results rebuilding Fox forks using good quality 20wt as bath oil (Torco RFF 20wt) with the new seals. For, FIT cartridges, I get great results with Torco RSF Medium for riders 175 and over, and Maxima Racing Blue 7.5wt for lighter weight riders. I get feedback that the Maxima Blue really smooths out chatter and still retains good rebound control for lighter riders.


Sounds like marketing BS from Fox to me.

I've run Motorex oils as thick and thicker than this "new" fox oil with all sorts of seals without issues.

Maybe Fox are saying their old seals are just no good?


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

Dougal said:


> Sounds like marketing BS from Fox to me.
> 
> I've run Motorex oils as thick and thicker than this "new" fox oil with all sorts of seals without issues.
> 
> Maybe Fox are saying their old seals are just no good?


What would it benefit them to tell you that they don't recommend the old style seals with 20 wt oil? You've got to use oil anyway. The new seals can be used with either the old or the new 20wt oil. I just rebuilt a Fox 40 Float, that gold oil comes out like mud.

As for loading an open bath damper with 20wt oil, give it a shot. Might be a shocker, pun intended 

Edit: I found the blurb. The new seals are backward compatible. The old style seals are not recommended for 20wt.

The new 20wt. Gold Bath Oil may be used with FIT and O/C damper cartridges but should NEVER be used in open bath fork dampers.
FOX 20wt. Gold is compatible with all 34mm, 36mm, and 40mm FOX Low-Friction wipers (manufactured by SKF). 
FOX 20wt. Gold is only compatible with the latest version of the 32mm FOX Low-Friction wipers (803-00-878). The label indicates specifically that these wipers are compatible with 20wt. Gold.


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## yourrealdad (May 17, 2012)

Thanks for the replies, sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I don't really care about the seals, since I have to replace them anyways and they are the standard seal now for 32mm forks. 

What I would like to know is if there is any problem with running the new Gold 20wt oil with a NON-kashima coated fork? I have a FIT dampener so I feel like I should be fine.

BTW after reading through this post everyone seems to be saying they use a non Fox oil, most have said something about using Torco RSF or Silkolene. Those seem to be the same price as the Fox Green and twice as much as the Fox Gold, so why wouldn't I just use the fox stuff anyways?

Thanks


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

If youre buying a bottle, that makes sense. I buy in bulk, and a little discount plus flat rate shipping saves me the cost of a Michellin 3 star rated dinner


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## yourrealdad (May 17, 2012)

Bing, any problem with it (Gold 20wt) for non-kashima forks?


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

bing! said:


> I read somewhere that the new fox seals have lips designed to deal with the thicker bath oil. That, and the fact that you shouldn't pour 20wt oil into a open bath damper, are the only issues. Otherwise, I've had great results rebuilding Fox forks using good quality 20wt as bath oil (Torco RFF 20wt) with the new seals. For, FIT cartridges, I get great results with Torco RSF Medium for riders 175 and over, and Maxima Racing Blue 7.5wt for lighter weight riders. I get feedback that the Maxima Blue really smooths out chatter and still retains good rebound control for lighter riders.


Apparently fox green is just coloured Torco RSF Medium.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

yourrealdad said:


> Bing, any problem with it (Gold 20wt) for non-kashima forks?


Honestly, I havent bought original Fox 20 wt gold. I use my usual 20wt oil for service. Ive dumped Fox Gold out of a fork, never filled it back up with it. I don't see using Gold fluid on non-kashima forks as a problem, as long as youre using it as lower bath oil and not for a damper.


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## Matty F (Sep 25, 2011)

Rick Draper said:


> Apparently fox green is just coloured Torco RSF Medium.


If you look through the back pages of this thread and others, I think you'll find the conclusion that Fox Green is made by Torco, but is a unique product not otherwise available in the Torco line. For starters, Torco RSF is a shock oil, not a fork oil. Even at that, the corresponding Torco fork oil (Torco RFF Medium) has a different kinematic viscosity than Fox Green.

Fox Gold is fine for Kashima or non-Kashima forks. As far as I know the only difference between the new 32 seals and old 32 seals is an extra lip on the bottom to scrape off a bit more oil. I presume this is because the tackifying additives in the Fox Gold allowed too much of it too crawl through the old 32 wiper seals, and out onto the exposed fork stanchion where it is especially prone to collect dirt.

I've put Fox Gold in a few forks now with great results. Highly recommended where possible.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

Matty F said:


> If you look through the back pages of this thread and others, I think you'll find the conclusion that Fox Green is made by Torco, but is a unique product not otherwise available in the Torco line. For starters, Torco RSF is a shock oil, not a fork oil. Even at that, the corresponding Torco fork oil (Torco RFF Medium) has a different kinematic viscosity than Fox Green.


Shock oil works perfectly, if not better,for sealed cartridge dampers than regular fork oil. I don't recommend changing oil in sealed dampers as often as bath oil. Shock oil supposedly stays good even under long service intervals. That's how they're marketed, I can't say I know for sure as I don't do any long term tests.


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## Matty F (Sep 25, 2011)

bing! said:


> Shock oil works perfectly, if not better,for sealed cartridge dampers than regular fork oil. I don't recommend changing oil in sealed dampers as often as bath oil. Shock oil supposedly stays good even under long service intervals. That's how they're marketed, I can't say I know for sure as I don't do any long term tests.


Absolutely. Shock oil works much better for sealed cartridge dampers. However, it works horribly as a bath oil. Fox Green is never recommended for use in a sealed cartridge damper. It is only recommended for use as a bushing lube in sealed cartridge forks, or for an open bath fluid in their open bath forks.

The oil Fox specs for use in their sealed dampers is Fox Red, which is rebranded Silkolene RSF 10wt.

Damper fluid definitely does not need to be changed nearly as often as bath oil.


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## bing! (Jul 8, 2010)

Matty F said:


> Absolutely. Shock oil works much better for sealed cartridge dampers. However, it works horribly as a bath oil. Fox Green is never recommended for use in a sealed cartridge damper. It is only recommended for use as a bushing lube in sealed cartridge forks, or for an open bath fluid in their open bath forks.
> 
> The oil Fox specs for use in their sealed dampers is Fox Red, which is rebranded Silkolene RSF 10wt.
> 
> Damper fluid definitely does not need to be changed nearly as often as bath oil.


We are on the same page then. I don't really buy bike branded suspension oil unless its something I can't find a reasonable equivalent to. I have not seen an advantage in doing so, and when I settle on a specific brand for a particular line of forks, its generally because customer feed back has been good, and the net effect is a noticeable difference to stock. Even though I use after market oil, I dont switch oil around after I find what works for a particular fork.

Generally, I will lower CST values slightly for light weight riders who complain of harshness. For heavier riders, I will recommend sending out for revalving with one of the known bike suspension shops.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Matty F said:


> Absolutely. Shock oil works much better for sealed cartridge dampers. However, it works horribly as a bath oil. Fox Green is never recommended for use in a sealed cartridge damper. It is only recommended for use as a bushing lube in sealed cartridge forks, or for an open bath fluid in their open bath forks.
> 
> The oil Fox specs for use in their sealed dampers is Fox Red, which is rebranded Silkolene RSF 10wt.
> 
> Damper fluid definitely does not need to be changed nearly as often as bath oil.


My local FOX distributor doesn't even carry the red. They sell green for everything.


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## Aceldama (Jan 18, 2005)

I read this entire thread but I'm a suspension newb and this isn't even a suspension question: I have a Fox DOSS dropper post that has Fox Green Fluid (10 wt) in the air chamber. I may have lost some of the fluid by accident while on vacation. What do you think I can get away with in a pinch for a week until I can get home? 

I'm running on the assumption that the oil is lubing the sliding internal post.

Thanks.


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

I once changed the oil on a Fox fork with generic 10wt lawn motor oil as a replacement. Seemed to work even better then the Fox green stuff. It felt more slick


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## HappyMTB.fr (Mar 17, 2012)

I like the feel of a freshly serviced lower legs on my Van 36. But sadly the feeling does not last very long: after a few hours of riding I can already feel that most of that butter smooth feeling is gone...
I use Fox green oil so far and wonder if the gold oil would prolong the butter smooth feeling. Anyone with experience about that?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Happy have you tried turning the bike over before a ride for ~20 min?


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## HappyMTB.fr (Mar 17, 2012)

J. Random Psycho said:


> Happy have you tried turning the bike over before a ride for ~20 min?


No I haven't, but I will!


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

I can't find Fox oem fluid locally and just did a service on a 2012 Float RL using Motul Expert 15W fork oil (57.1 cst). It appears to work very well, it is described as follows: 
"Contains an ANTI-FRICTION additive specially developed by Motul, making easier sliding, avoiding
drag in the fork."

Seems to be mush smoother than with the Fox green, but the fork was also suffering from the oil migrating to the air chamber problem, which is hopefully now fixed.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Desertride said:


> the fork was also suffering from the oil migrating to the air chamber problem, which is hopefully now fixed.


What was your fix? Is it the make of air piston that has foam ring on it?


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## Desertride (Nov 1, 2012)

J. Random Psycho said:


> What was your fix? Is it the make of air piston that has foam ring on it?


Yes I removed the foam ring from the air piston for now.


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## ttimpe (Nov 15, 2015)

bing! said:


> What would it benefit them to tell you that they don't recommend the old style seals with 20 wt oil? You've got to use oil anyway. The new seals can be used with either the old or the new 20wt oil. I just rebuilt a Fox 40 Float, that gold oil comes out like mud.
> 
> As for loading an open bath damper with 20wt oil, give it a shot. Might be a shocker, pun intended
> 
> ...


I'm going to service my lowers on my 2012 Fox float 34mm 29er fork. I'm getting the lower friction seal kit. Is it OK to use the gold 20wt? I can not find the fox shox green 10wt any where online. Or is there a better oil to use that won't mess up anything?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

I've been using Mobil 1 New Life in all semi-bath type fork lowers for several years now. I mostly see Rock Shox, Fox and Manitou forks. Spent some 4 or 5 liters already. Looks like it's better (less stiction) than the Fox green oil they've been selling for lowers, including those Fox forks that came factory filled with green oil in lowers. I have not yet encountered any incompatibility with seals.


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## ttimpe (Nov 15, 2015)

J. Random Psycho said:


> I've been using Mobil 1 New Life in all semi-bath type fork lowers for several years now. I mostly see Rock Shox, Fox and Manitou forks. Spent some 4 or 5 liters already. Looks like it's better (less stiction) than the Fox green oil they've been selling for lowers, including those Fox forks that came factory filled with green oil in lowers. I have not yet encountered any incompatibility with seals.


I'm going to use the gold 20wt. Fox said I can use that

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Sure, go ahead. I'd try it too if I had it, simply out of curiosity. I just wanted to say I'm not impressed with their previous lowers oil, the green one.


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## ttimpe (Nov 15, 2015)

After some looking around I read the same thing. I'll let you know how the gold does

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## PMK (Oct 12, 2004)

Mobil 1 in the lowers of my own personal stuff and many forks I have rebuilt for friends. Bicycle and moto, it is one of the best in that application.

Been doing this for over 10 years with no issues, simply better performance.

PK


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## cadoretteboat (Aug 27, 2011)

PMK said:


> Mobil 1 in the lowers of my own personal stuff and many forks I have rebuilt for friends. Bicycle and moto, it is one of the best in that application.
> PK


Just to add: it's not that good thing if you have an open cartridge damper.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

So Fox are changing their oils around again. Here is the 2002-2013 oil chart with latest revision: 2002-2013 Bath Oil Volume Chart | Bike Help Center | FOX

The latest revision means Fox 10wt green is nowhere to be found. Now we have a Fox 7wt used for dampers and oil bath. We have 20wt gold used for some other oil bath and 10wt red used for everything else (including oil bath).

???????

I understand Silkolene/Fuchs have revised their RSF line. Is that still the 10wt red? Is it now slippery enough for bushings?

What's with the 7wt? Anyone got a part number, description or cSt? Is it the same old Torco 7wt or something different? Was the change a performance issue (so different cSt at riding temps) or a supplier issue (new fluid the same cSt at riding temps but differnt 100C SAE rating)?


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Dougal said:


> So Fox are changing their oils around again. Here is the 2002-2013 oil chart with latest revision: 2002-2013 Bath Oil Volume Chart | Bike Help Center | FOX
> 
> The latest revision means Fox 10wt green is nowhere to be found. Now we have a Fox 7wt used for dampers and oil bath. We have 20wt gold used for some other oil bath and 10wt red used for everything else (including oil bath).
> 
> ...


It's simple. Fox discontinued the Green so they now specify Red instead of Green.

Old Fox 7wt is used on O/B Terralogic dampers, 31.82 [email protected]


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> It's simple. Fox discontinued the Green so they now specify Red instead of Green.
> 
> Old Fox 7wt is used on O/B Terralogic dampers, 31.82 [email protected]


Is this the same old oil being sold again? Fox haven't sold it for a long time. But my fox dealer tells me it's coming and he'll have it in another month.

Any idea why I am seeing rear shocks with Fox Green?


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## tacubaya (Jan 27, 2006)

Dougal said:


> Is this the same old oil being sold again? Fox haven't sold it for a long time. But my fox dealer tells me it's coming and he'll have it in another month.
> 
> Any idea why I am seeing rear shocks with Fox Green?


Fox 7wt has been discontinued for many years now, so you have to either purchase the Torco oil or use another brand and match the viscosity.

I haven't seen a single rear shock with green fluid.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

tacubaya said:


> Fox 7wt has been discontinued for many years now, so you have to either purchase the Torco oil or use another brand and match the viscosity.
> 
> I haven't seen a single rear shock with green fluid.


Float X CTD went though here last week with green fluid. I've seen others which may have been serviced by others. But this was off a new bike.

Maybe next month I'll have a bottle of Fox 7wt to check......


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

ttimpe said:


> After some looking around I read the same thing. I'll let you know how the gold does


I had an opportunity to use some Fox Gold 20wt recently. The oil behaves funny when you play with it, creating "molten cheese" (or think Rock'n'Roll Super Web grease) looking long thin threads when you pick a small sample and try to quickly move it away from the main volume.

Once in the fork, it felt better than the old green Fox oil, at least when it's warm.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Float X CTD went though here last week with green fluid. I've seen others which may have been serviced by others. But this was off a new bike.
> 
> Maybe next month I'll have a bottle of Fox 7wt to check......


Wires crossed unfortunately. No 7wt coming.

Guess I'd have to order some torco if I get curious


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Ran across this after failing to find more of the Fox Green after a recent service...still have some, but if I read that right, red is the new green (both 10wt) for my old Float forks?


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

noapathy, gold is the new green.  The lowers/stanchion/semi-bath oil.


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

J. Random Psycho said:


> noapathy, gold is the new green.  The lowers/stanchion/semi-bath oil.


OK, now I'm confused. I thought that, too, but then Fox's info seems to contradict itself, especially at this link to '02-'13 open bath forks near the top of the page of Dougal's link) saying to never use gold in the open bath damper (spring side I'm guessing is more flexible - even heard of Mobil 1 motor oil being used). It also mentions only using the new seals, which of course if I switch to gold would be the ones I'd get.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Hm yes I meant semi-bath applications, wouldn't use the gold one in open bath damper indeed. And yes I've been using Mobil 1 in most semi-bath fork designs for years now.


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## Rick Draper (Dec 1, 2009)

J. Random Psycho said:


> noapathy, gold is the new green.  The lowers/stanchion/semi-bath oil.


NO ITS NOT.

RED is the new GREEN for older OPEN BATH forks, not GOLD, not longer green but RED.


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

What I meant is that gold is the new green for semi-bath designs. Not all "older" Fox forks are open bath: early FIT models, and even O/C CTD now count as old too.

PS
For open bath dampers I have used Mobil ATF-SHC several times and in one instance even cheap generic "hydraulic oil" for cars (light yellow, low viscosity; I had nothing better on hand).


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Semi-bath was a manitou trademark. Has it become ubiquitous?

I usually call it splash-bath or simply "bushing lube".


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## J. Random Psycho (Apr 20, 2008)

Splash bath is a nice term. I kept using semi-bath because I'm biased towards Manitou, and there's nothing Manitou specific about the design (any more) so it generalizes well. As for bushing lube, I think that's not very clear for pointing out it uses oil and not grease there.

I also call _derailleur_ derailer!


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## noapathy (Jun 24, 2008)

Rick Draper said:


> NO ITS NOT.
> 
> RED is the new GREEN for older OPEN BATH forks, not GOLD, not longer green but RED.





J. Random Psycho said:


> What I meant is that gold is the new green for semi-bath designs. Not all "older" Fox forks are open bath: early FIT models, and even O/C CTD now count as old too.
> 
> PS
> For open bath dampers I have used Mobil ATF-SHC several times and in one instance even cheap generic "hydraulic oil" for cars (light yellow, low viscosity; I had nothing better on hand).


Got it - thanks guys for clearing it up. Sorry I wasn't specific enough. Once I use up the little green I still have (enough for one more fork) red it is as all my Fox stuff is currently open bath.


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