# Floating Brake Kit for Big Hit?



## Mr. Grimm (Jan 20, 2004)

Does anyone make a Floating Brake Kit for a Big Hit? Also, do you guys think a floating rear brake would help out a big hit? I know the Floating Kits are usually on single pivot bikes. How much does a floating kit run for anyways? If they are out there, can somebody post a picture of a big hit equiped with a floating rear brake!
Cheers
Gary


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## TheSherpa (Jan 15, 2004)

Mr. Grimm said:


> Does anyone make a Floating Brake Kit for a Big Hit? Also, do you guys think a floating rear brake would help out a big hit? I know the Floating Kits are usually on single pivot bikes. How much does a floating kit run for anyways? If they are out there, can somebody post a picture of a big hit equiped with a floating rear brake!
> Cheers
> Gary


No you most likely don't need it. Only a very well trained engineer can notice the even slightest brake jack on a Horst link.

-TS


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## DHbiker (Apr 23, 2004)

Is the Big Hit single pivot or 4 bar?


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## DHbiker (Apr 23, 2004)

http://www.therapycomponents.com/HOMEPAGE.htm


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

*May have new found respect for floating brake.*



Mr. Grimm said:


> Does anyone make a Floating Brake Kit for a Big Hit? Also, do you guys think a floating rear brake would help out a big hit? I know the Floating Kits are usually on single pivot bikes. How much does a floating kit run for anyways? If they are out there, can somebody post a picture of a big hit equiped with a floating rear brake!
> Cheers
> Gary


At Interbike I had an interesting conversation with Brian Berthold at Therapy Components about his floating brake setups. Obviously I expected him to tout his product, but I got an interesting insight about it. I asked him about 4-bar Horst and other linkage designs allegedly not being as prone to braking influences on their suspensions as perhaps simple single pivot designs. He very compentently explained how a floating brake affects all suspension designs in a very positive manner. A Trek Session 77 was in his booth with a floating setup installed--not Horst, but linkage and axle pivot design. He described Alex Shandro's, and others, use of the product. He also explained how some of these well known riders have a commitment to Shimano's Saint group, for which Brian doesn't have a floater built for yet--the cup and cone bearing setup presenting a problem for the caliper mount at this point. He said these riders use the floating brake on their factory supplied bikes for everything but public appearances and photo sessions, because they have to display the Saint product. Sure enough, at the Trek booth, Shandro was there for an autograph/poster appearance, and he confirms the use of the floating brake. I'm not an engineer, but I notice a lot of high end dirt and pavement motorcycles use floating brake designs. Obviously these motorcycles have different and sophisticated linkage designs, but apparently still benefit from a floating brake. The whole concept makes sense to isolate braking influences at the rear wheel from the suspension action. I'd bet riders who ride in seriously rocky, gnarly terrain benefit the most from floating brakes, and that's probably where most long travel, big hit bike riders like to ride. I'm probably going to order one next week for my Bullit which will definitely benefit from the setup. Craig H, one of the MTBR moderators, certainly confirms their benefit.


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## TheSherpa (Jan 15, 2004)

DHbiker said:


> Is the Big Hit single pivot or 4 bar?


4-Bar and more specifically, Horst link.

-TS


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## zerossix (Jul 25, 2004)

TNC said:


> Alex Shandro's, and others, use of the product...


andrew?


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

*LOL! But of course.*



zerossix said:


> andrew?


Hmmm...must've been a senior moment.


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## dhracer1067 (Jan 13, 2004)

ive done tons or dhing in really rocky places and to tell you the truth i see absolutely no need for a floating brake setup.


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

floating brakes for me forever.....huge difference, but this is comming from a single pivot


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Huh?*



Mr. Grimm said:


> Does anyone make a Floating Brake Kit for a Big Hit? Also, do you guys think a floating rear brake would help out a big hit? I know the Floating Kits are usually on single pivot bikes. How much does a floating kit run for anyways? If they are out there, can somebody post a picture of a big hit equiped with a floating rear brake!
> Cheers
> Gary


I'm sure you could fit a floater on a Big Hit, but it would be the biggest waste of money since a Horst-Link bikes suspension moves independent of braking forces.

From the Spec website...


Specialized Tech said:


> Our FSR design 4-bar linkage bikes actually don't suffer from "Brake Jack". The 4-bar design, when done properly, naturally avoids this problem. They are active in all situations (braking, sitting, standing, coasting, pedaling). You are correct, our catalogs don't refer directly to brake jack. Not to say that they shouldn't, I guess they've always just targeted the fact that all of our designs are fully active and independent, which in a way implies that brake jack is non-existent, it's just not as obvious a method of mentioning it. We should be more direct in this respect.


Hope this helps answer your question. If you having problems with your bike over braking bumps, then it's more likely improperly tuned suspension.


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## Mr. Grimm (Jan 20, 2004)

*Thanks for that.*



TNC said:


> At Interbike I had an interesting conversation with Brian Berthold at Therapy Components about his floating brake setups. Obviously I expected him to tout his product, but I got an interesting insight about it. I asked him about 4-bar Horst and other linkage designs allegedly not being as prone to braking influences on their suspensions as perhaps simple single pivot designs. He very compentently explained how a floating brake affects all suspension designs in a very positive manner. A Trek Session 77 was in his booth with a floating setup installed--not Horst, but linkage and axle pivot design. He described Alex Shandro's, and others, use of the product. He also explained how some of these well known riders have a commitment to Shimano's Saint group, for which Brian doesn't have a floater built for yet--the cup and cone bearing setup presenting a problem for the caliper mount at this point. He said these riders use the floating brake on their factory supplied bikes for everything but public appearances and photo sessions, because they have to display the Saint product. Sure enough, at the Trek booth, Shandro was there for an autograph/poster appearance, and he confirms the use of the floating brake. I'm not an engineer, but I notice a lot of high end dirt and pavement motorcycles use floating brake designs. Obviously these motorcycles have different and sophisticated linkage designs, but apparently still benefit from a floating brake. The whole concept makes sense to isolate braking influences at the rear wheel from the suspension action. I'd bet riders who ride in seriously rocky, gnarly terrain benefit the most from floating brakes, and that's probably where most long travel, big hit bike riders like to ride. I'm probably going to order one next week for my Bullit which will definitely benefit from the setup. Craig H, one of the MTBR moderators, certainly confirms their benefit.


I wish I could have went to Interbike. Thanks for sharing some of what your learnt. I dont really have a problem over braking bumps, but I am always searching for ways of improving my ride. I have a buddy (with an orange) who swears the brake therapy is the best thing since sliced bread. Thanks for the advice, I'm going to write the guys at brake therapy and get their 2 cents.
~Cheers
Gary


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

Mr. Grimm said:


> I have a buddy (with an orange) who swears the brake therapy is the best thing since sliced bread. Thanks for the advice, I'm going to write the guys at brake therapy and get their 2 cents.
> ~Cheers
> Gary


The reason your bud loves his floater is because his Orange is an SP (single pivot) bike and has horrible brake jack without it. Honestly, you will not seen or feel any marked improvement in your Big Hit with a floater. The only thing you will notice is the big empty space in your wallet/bank account where your money used to be.

I guarantee you the guys at Therapy will try to tell you otherwise though. They will insist it will make a difference and from their point of view it's understandable, afterall their job is to sell floating brake setups. And since your inquiring to them, you will appear to not know the difference between a bike that needs a floater and one that doesn't. Which makes you an easy mark.

In the end it's your money, waste it how you'd like. If you don't mind my asking what year is your Big Hit?


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

red5 said:


> I guarantee you the guys at Therapy will try to tell you otherwise though. They will insist it will make a difference and from their point of view it's understandable, afterall their job is to sell floating brake setups. And since your inquiring to them, you will appear to not know the difference between a bike that needs a floater and one that doesn't. Which makes you an easy mark.
> 
> In the end it's your money, waste it how you'd like. If you don't mind my asking what year is your Big Hit?


they'll also tell you theres a 100% money back garantee.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

zedro said:


> *floating brakes for* me forever.....huge difference, but this is comming from *a single pivot*


Exactly! Keys words to note here people, are...

floating 
brakes 
for 
a 
single 
pivot

Nuff said.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

zedro said:


> they'll also tell you theres a 100% money back garantee.


But you know as well as I that regardless of the guarantee, if he believes it works even though it does nothing, he'll never want to return it. And I assure you their betting on that fact.


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

red5 said:


> But you know as well as I that regardless of the guarantee, if he believes it works even though it does nothing, he'll never want to return it. And I assure you their betting on that fact.


the same could be said about Horst stuff in general.

saying that there will be no difference simply isnt true, the mechanics between the two are different, and can be tuned moreso. Now to say that any noticible performance gain would be negligible is a subjective argument, some people are more or less sensitive to their own bikes performance. There are some that even argue they cant tell the difference as far as single pivots go, even when others feel the night and day (and this goes for anything).


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## Gramatica (Jun 25, 2004)

red5 said:


> I'm sure you could fit a floater on a Big Hit, but it would be the biggest waste of money since a Horst-Link bikes suspension moves independent of braking forces.
> 
> From the Spec website...
> 
> Hope this helps answer your question. If you having problems with your bike over braking bumps, then it's more likely improperly tuned suspension.


But red....dont they want to sell you a 4bar bike? I belive zedro has a lot of good points, I would like to see if Mr. Grimm (a normal weekend warrior) will see a diff.

Not saying anything bad about you red.....your one of the fourms best posters, but just give it a small chance....


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

Gramatica said:


> But red....dont they want to sell you a 4bar bike? I belive zedro has a lot of good points, I would like to see if Mr. Grimm (a normal weekend warrior) will see a diff.
> 
> Not saying anything bad about you red.....your one of the fourms best posters, but just give it a small chance....


I already have a 4-bar bike, Big Hit. I agree with you regarding Zedro, that's why it's always a pleasure to share my views and experiences with this board so I may have the pleasure of reading all the replies. And I completely agree with Zedro that there maybe more of mechanical difference, than that of any noticable performance gain. And that was pretty much the point I was trying to convey, but didn't feel it necessary to mention the mechanical part since it's voided by the lack of performanceg gained. Regardless of the mechanical changes, he'll gain no better noticable performance. I still stand behind the fact the Horst bikes don't need it and will not benefit ''noticeably" from it

Please understand I'm not try to give this guy a hard time or give the appearance that I'm a know it all. I would just hate to see someone spend a fair chunk of money for such a small perceived gain, if any at all. As always people are entitled to do as they wish and if he still feels he wants to try it, then I beleive he should. I just thought he should have a better understanding as to why some bikes seem to benefit from it (Bullit, Gemini, V10) and others mechanically speaking probably won't (Big Hit, Demo, M1, Azonic Recoil).

I don''t beleive that just because you may not agree with me that you are trying to slander me or make negative views. I think it's great to hear others opinions and sometimes even rewarding, because they may have an understanding that I hadn't given thought too and could prove useful.


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## Gramatica (Jun 25, 2004)

red5 said:


> I already have a 4-bar bike, Big Hit. I agree with you regarding Zedro, that's why it's always a pleasure to shared my views and experiences with this board so I may have the pleasure of reading his replies. And I agree that there maybe more of mechanical difference, than that of any noticable performance gain.
> 
> Please understand I'm not try to give this guy a hard time or give the appearance that I'm a know it all. I would just hate to see someone spend a fair chunk of money for such a small perceived gain, if any at all. As always people are entitled to do as they wish and if he still feels he wants to try it, then I beleive he should. I just thought he should have a better understanding as to why some bikes seem to benefit from it (Bullit, Gemini, V10) and others mechanically speaking probably won't (Big Hit, Demo, M1, Azonic Recoil).
> 
> I don''t beleive that just because you may not agree with me that you are trying to slander me or make negative views. I think it's great to hear others opinions and sometimes even rewarding, because they may have an understanding that I hadn't given thought too and could prove useful.


Your a good man....

Rock on, and Ride hard.


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## Slack (Dec 30, 2003)

zedro said:


> floating brakes for me forever.....huge difference, but this is comming from a single pivot


Really? Care to expand on the performance enhancement you experienced?

Did you make your own or go with Therapy?

I would love to try one on my Turner, but drilling a straight hole in my frame worries me.


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

Slack said:


> Really? Care to expand on the performance enhancement you experienced?
> 
> Did you make your own or go with Therapy?


i made my own...along with the bike.

Basically i get better braking traction, independant suspension movement under braking (ie. no lock-up or chatter), and experience less dive (although this has alot to do with the high main pivot location which wants to squat more, which the floater lets it do more readily)


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

zedro said:


> better braking traction, independant suspension movement under braking (ie. no lock-up or chatter), and experience less dive


Not to be a [email protected], but that sounds allot like how my FSR performs.


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

red5 said:


> Not to be a [email protected], but that sounds allot like how my FSR performs.


alledgedly 

same basic premise, but like all differing systems, the exact performance can vary. Plus i can adjust my system to behave differently.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

zedro said:


> alledgedly
> 
> same basic premise, but like all differing systems, the exact performance can vary. Plus i can adjust my system to behave differently.


True dat!

I do wish my Big Hit would exhibit the squating trait while braking of some other designs, like the Canfield F1.


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## COmtbiker12 (Jan 12, 2004)

red5 said:


> True dat!
> 
> I do wish my Big Hit would exhibit the squating trait while braking of some other designs, like the Canfield F1.


 You mean where you can bounce holding the brake and the frame wont move forwards or backwards at all? (sorry if it was mentioned earlier im too damn lazy to read the thread).... My V-10 with floater does it, although Ive heard that BrakeTherapy makes a much better floater for the V10


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Huh?*



COmtbiker12 said:


> You mean where you can bounce holding the brake and the frame wont move forwards or backwards at all? (sorry if it was mentioned earlier im too damn lazy to read the thread).... My V-10 with floater does it, although Ive heard that BrakeTherapy makes a much better floater for the V10


Not sure what your describing. But if I hold my brakes and bounce all my bike does is move up and down.

What I was actually referring too is...when you grab the rear brake the rear of the bike actually squats (lowers in it's travel) lowering the center of gravity and in turn raking the bike out more, which helps in really steep sections.


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## Slack (Dec 30, 2003)

zedro said:


> alledgedly
> 
> same basic premise, but like all differing systems, the exact performance can vary. Plus i can adjust my system to behave differently.


It would be cool if you could do that on the fly.


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## COmtbiker12 (Jan 12, 2004)

red5 said:


> Not sure what your describing. But if I hold my brakes and bounce all my bike does is move up and down.
> 
> What I was actually referring too is...when you grab the rear brake the rear of the bike actually squats (lowers in it's travel) lowering the center of gravity and in turn raking the bike out more, which helps in really steep sections.


 Nevermind then, thats interesting though. I dont think Ive noticed that on any of my bikes....


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## Richard85 (Sep 18, 2004)

are K2 Tirades single pivots?


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## Frankenschwinn (Jan 20, 2004)

Coming from a bike with a floater (Straight Six) and going to a bike with no floater (v10 with standard dropouts) I rode both on the courses at the Final Descent this year and noticed no difference in braking performance as far as braking bumps go... I have also noticed that the V10 no longer has an option for a floating rear brake any longer... I have ridden my Heckler (no floater) on courses that I have ridden my straight six and in that case I do notice MAJOR differences in braking performances.


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## Gramatica (Jun 25, 2004)

Frankenschwinn said:


> Coming from a bike with a floater (Straight Six) and going to a bike with no floater (v10 with standard dropouts) I rode both on the courses at the Final Descent this year and noticed no difference in braking performance as far as braking bumps go... I have also noticed that the V10 no longer has an option for a floating rear brake any longer... I have ridden my Heckler (no floater) on courses that I have ridden my straight six and in that case I do notice MAJOR differences in braking performances.


Intresting.... Isent vpp considered a 4 bar as well?


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

Frankenschwinn said:


> Coming from a bike with a floater (Straight Six) and going to a bike with no floater (v10 with standard dropouts) I rode both on the courses at the Final Descent this year and noticed no difference in braking performance as far as braking bumps go... I have also noticed that the V10 no longer has an option for a floating rear brake any longer... I have ridden my Heckler (no floater) on courses that I have ridden my straight six and in that case I do notice MAJOR differences in braking performances.


in the case of the V10, the floater was pretty redundant for most of the travel apparently. I guess it wasent worth offering in the first place but they did anyways for some reason.

Lawill designs on the other hand need a floater, otherwise they tend to brake jack.


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## Frankenschwinn (Jan 20, 2004)

_Lawill designs on the other hand need a floater, otherwise they tend to brake jack._

That was my understanding too.

Just thought I would post my personal observations.


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## COmtbiker12 (Jan 12, 2004)

Frankenschwinn said:


> _Lawill designs on the other hand need a floater, otherwise they tend to brake jack._
> 
> That was my understanding too.
> 
> Just thought I would post my personal observations.


 hey frankenschwinn, since you got your v10 what are you gonna do with your schwinn frame? If youre not keeping a build would you consider selling it cheap?


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## Frankenschwinn (Jan 20, 2004)

COmtbiker12 said:


> hey frankenschwinn, since you got your v10 what are you gonna do with your schwinn frame? If youre not keeping a build would you consider selling it cheap?


 I think I am going to put 24" wheels, a 5" travel fork and some lighter weight parts on it for my son.

I have seen a few online for not much $ though. What size are you needing?

BTW, How is Dave Lee? did he have surgery? You know him don't you?
Tell him I said thanks for the deal.


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## COmtbiker12 (Jan 12, 2004)

Frankenschwinn said:


> I think I am going to put 24" wheels, a 5" travel fork and some lighter weight parts on it for my son.
> 
> I have seen a few online for not much $ though. What size are you needing?
> 
> ...


 Thats cool. I'm pretty much open to any size as I'm looking for a play bike, I tend to like small bikes anyways, I'm 6'1" and my V10 has a 16" seat tube.

I dont know Dave very much, I've ridden with him a few times and know hes about one of the fastest guys in town but havent heard much since the summer about him.


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## Mr. Grimm (Jan 20, 2004)

*Zedro, Red, lets sort this out....*

I'm rolling a 03 Big Hit. First off, I am not a racer. I go out on Saturdays and do some DHing and do street riding once or twice during the week. So I may or may not notice a difference with a floating rear brake, but I do ride in Australia. Australia has more than its fair share of rocks, and I was interested in finding a way to smooth out rough braking sections (believe me, I do play with my shock settings, tire pressures, and even play with my forks (not as much as Zedro, but Shivers are pretty simple)). But lets get to the point; it's all about physics. Now my first year of college is a drunken blur, but I do remember some stuff. Remember that vector stuff Red5? You see the suspension is doing it's job while the braking system is adding addition forces into the picture (hence creating vectors), it would seem to me that I one were to eliminate an outside force then the one could have the suspension suspend the bike, and the braking system stop the bike independent of another... Now don't kill me Zedro, I'm not an engineer. What do you boys think? And Red5, I am not a retard, you write in a very condescending tone; just chill guy and spread the love...

Thanks
~Gary


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

Mr. Grimm said:


> ....... You see the suspension is doing it's job while the braking system is adding addition forces into the picture (hence creating vectors), it would seem to me that I one were to eliminate an outside force then the one could have the suspension suspend the bike, and the braking system stop the bike independent of another...


thats basically the difference between a Horst 4 bar and a floating brake. Now the question is to what degree this makes a noticible difference (since the Horst at least alleviates the traction issues and terrain/tire influences), something i cant give an opinion on since i havent ridden a Horst.

I hesitate to recommend anything expensive, but at least Brake Therapy does offer their satisfaction garantee (upto you to agree with Reds cynicysm on that tho).


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

Mr. Grimm said:


> it would seem to me that I one were to eliminate an outside force then the one could have the suspension suspend the bike, and the braking system stop the bike independent of another


Well bascially what your decribing is what the Horst Link does, just different mechanically than a floater. It allows the suspension to work independently of the braking forces. This is how the bike is able to still track the terrain while your grabbing a handful of rear brake.



Mr. Grimm said:


> And Red5, I am not a retard, you write in a very condescending tone; just chill guy and spread the love


I'm sorry if it appears to you that I'm implying that you are a "retard", that is not my intention. My intention is to try and give a detailed explanation of how each system works and why different bike designs may or may not benefit from certain modifications.

You say you have an 03 Big Hit, I'm guessing Expert. That would mean you have a stock Vanilla RC, yes? That being the case then, as I stated before, any issues you may be experiencing with braking bumps are probably coming from the shocks inability to deal with the rougher terrain. I have the same bike and often thought the bike had seemed rough in bumpy terrain. So I decided to upgrade my rear shock and have it PUSH'd. And I can tell you wholeheartedly that it made a world of difference. Now my bike seems to float over bumps and rides much smoother. Upgrading your shock to one with Stable Platform would be a better investment to manage what your trying to do. Your problems are not with the interaction between the suspension design and braking forces, but more to do with the shock and bumps. Basically the bumps are overcoming the shocks ability to deal with them, which is a pretty standard characteristic of non-platform Fox Vanilla RC's.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Technically speaking...*



Richard85 said:


> are K2 Tirades single pivots?


Yes and no.

Now let me explain. Take a look at the 2 photos and pay special attention to the pivot placement near the rear axle. If the pivot is in front and below the rear axle like on the Big Hit it's an FSR Horst Link 4-bar design, if not and it resembles the Tirades pivot location of being above the axle on seatstay instead of the chainstay then theoretically it's a single pivot. SO while the Tirade is called a 4-bar, it exhibits similiar characteristics to single pivots especially when it comes to braking.

The term single pivot more often than not is used to describe the suspensions characteristics, than the design itself. Other common 4-bar Single Pivots are Kona's and Giant AC's.


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## Mr. Grimm (Jan 20, 2004)

*Cheers Red...*

Thanks guy, sorry for being so sensitive. I am riding an Expert, with the origional RC on the back. What do you mean when you say your shock was "Push'd"? I have heard great things about some of the stable platform shocks, but I have never ridden one. So what shock are you running now? Also, on the Horst link, do you really think it eliminates all brake jack? You yourself mentioned that bikes rolling a floating brake often sink when the brake is applied, and the bighit do the opposite (probably due to the forks diving). I know specialized says the frames don't have any brake jack, but alike brake therapy they are a company making money. I thought for sure somebody was running one. You mentioned that they are really expensive; I figured they would sell for around the 50-100 dollar mark. How much do they go for?
Thanks guy
~Gary


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## Gramatica (Jun 25, 2004)

Mr. Grimm said:


> Thanks guy, sorry for being so sensitive. I am riding an Expert, with the origional RC on the back. What do you mean when you say your shock was "Push'd"?


http://www.pushindustries.com/

They take your FOX shock, and custom valve it for you, a good chunk of change....but I hear they have quality products, and good customer service.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

Mr. Grimm said:


> Thanks guy, sorry for being so sensitive. I am riding an Expert, with the origional RC on the back. What do you mean when you say your shock was "Push'd"? I have heard great things about some of the stable platform shocks, but I have never ridden one. So what shock are you running now? Also, on the Horst link, do you really think it eliminates all brake jack? You yourself mentioned that bikes rolling a floating brake often sink when the brake is applied, and the bighit do the opposite (probably due to the forks diving). I know specialized says the frames don't have any brake jack, but alike brake therapy they are a company making money. I thought for sure somebody was running one. You mentioned that they are really expensive; I figured they would sell for around the 50-100 dollar mark. How much do they go for?
> Thanks guy
> ~Gary


PUSH (click here for link) is a local company here in So.Cal that adds stable platform damping to stock Fox shocks. Here is a brief description of what they did too my Fox Vanilla RC...

*Fox Vanilla RC Race System*
*Available only for the Vanilla RC, Race Systems take the "Works" approach and put it into the privateer's hands. With Multi-Stage Valving, Torco Race Fluids and high grade materials, this kit brings World Cup performance to your local trail. As with all PUSH services, Race Systems services are valved with the rider, riding style and frame in mind, by expert technicians.*

I'm pretty confident when I say FSR bikes, if designed properly, should not illicit any noticable brake jack. I have ridden many bikes, single pivots and VPP's, that do and have never noticed similiar tendencies with my Big Hit.

Actually my reference to bikes that squat was not in reference to running a floater, but to a specific bike design itself. Big Hit's actually remain neutral when the brakes applied, whereas single pivots,like the Bullit and Gemini, tend to rise and stiffen which makes them unable to react to the terrain with the brakes applied.

Now while I agree alot of companies use gimmicks to make money, some of what they say has to make sense otherwise they wouldn't be able to remain in business. Some of Specialized's technology, like their Body Geometry shoes, gloves and saddles, seem sort of gimmicky. But thats only because since not every body is the same, then the same sort of padding or saddle cutouts cannot apply to everyone. My point about Therapy is that while it cannot hurt your bike to use the floater, it certainly also may not help it and would be a big waste on money and likely not going to tell you that you won't benefit, because they may see it as every bike has "some probable" brake jack. And you can figure on spending anywhere from $300-400 USD on a floater system, at least from the reviews I've read. Also figure you may have to buy a new hub and have your wheel rebuilt to make room for the Floater system.


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## SHIVER ME TIMBERS (Jan 12, 2004)

unless you are a serious racer, then you don't need a floating rear brake. How many times do you even notice? For me, occaisonally, but I can live without getting one. Mostly stutter bumps efect it the most


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

SHIVER ME TIMBERS said:


> unless you are a serious racer, then you don't need a floating rear brake. How many times do you even notice? For me, occaisonally, but I can live without getting one. Mostly stutter bumps efect it the most


i'm not a serious racer, not even a non-serious racer. Why does having a well performing ride always have to be about racing?


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Here is an old thread where we were talking about the floating brake on the Bullit (with pics of my old Bullit).
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=8668

A more recent thread over on the SC board.
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?postid=399985#poststop

If anyone has any questions, post here, or on one of the threads above.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

COmtbiker12 said:


> My V-10 with floater does it, although Ive heard that BrakeTherapy makes a much better floater for the V10


Ladge who posts here has a Brake Therapy floating brake on his V-10. He has posted pics of it on the DH board. If you search the archives you'll probably find it.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Mr. Grimm said:


> I know specialized says the frames don't have any brake jack, but alike brake therapy they are a company making money. I thought for sure somebody was running one. You mentioned that they are really expensive; I figured they would sell for around the 50-100 dollar mark. How much do they go for?
> Thanks guy
> ~Gary


I'm guessing you are asking about the price of the Brake Thearpy floating brake? If so, the whole kit is around $300US, depending on the bike model, brake model, rotor size & rear hub model.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

red5 said:


> Also figure you may have to buy a new hub and have your wheel rebuilt to make room for the Floater system.


The kit fit my existing hub (DT Swiss Hugi) and I didn't have to rebuild the wheel.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

TheSherpa said:


> No you most likely don't need it. Only a very well trained engineer can notice the even slightest brake jack on a Horst link.
> 
> -TS


Ah, where to start? I guess first to introduce myself since it's been quite a while since I've posted here.

Hi all, this is Brian from Therapy Components, makers of Brake Therapy (among others).

Apologies to being so late to chime in here, and to all the emails that I'm behind in responding to (which I probably should be doing now instead of this, but I WILL get caught up shortly, I promise). Just getting back and recovering from Interbike, which, as much as I like it, seems to take more and more out of me every year......

Ok, it doesn't take a trained engineer, or even a train engineer to notice brake force induced suspension interaction on ANY bike. Really, the most novice of riders and/or intellectual midget can feel this.

Do you realize it NOW??? That's a different question entirely. I've had riders on all types of bikes say that there bike doesn't exhibit this tendency, and when we put a floater on the bike they say "ohhhh, that's what the difference is".

My point here is that just because you don't identify the problem as such, doesn't mean it's not happening. Without a floating brake, the tendency is to say "that's normal, all bikes do that" as of course they do. Sometimes it takes a chance to realize how good it can be to realize how bad it was...Does this make sense?


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

dhracer1067 said:


> ive done tons or dhing in really rocky places and to tell you the truth i see absolutely no need for a floating brake setup.


But if you tried it you might change your mind???


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

CraigH said:


> The kit fit my existing hub (DT Swiss Hugi) and I didn't have to rebuild the wheel.


That's why I said "may" have too. I have heard some people who have had to too replace them, not sure why, but they did. It was just an observation and not meant to imply a definite need.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

red5 said:


> I'm sure you could fit a floater on a Big Hit, but it would be the biggest waste of money since a Horst-Link bikes suspension moves independent of braking forces.
> 
> From the Spec website...
> 
> Hope this helps answer your question. If you having problems with your bike over braking bumps, then it's more likely improperly tuned suspension.


You are incorrect in your statement that a horst link bike moves independently of braking forces. The brkae caliper on any bike, regardless of suspension design, is attached via solid steel bolts to the same piece of hardware that the rear wheel is attached to. Therefore, the braking forces have NO CHOICE, the reaction force MUST BE transmitted through those bolts, to the very piece of hardware they are attached to. There is no way around this....

A couple of related points.....ALL BIKES ARE SINGLE PIVOT!!!!!!!!!

The original "horst link" design (which, by the way, was "invented" to deal with pedalling forces) and all other multi linkage bikes, are "single pivot". What I mean by this is that these design allow the "virtual pivot" to be located in a different position than would normally be possible with a conventional single pivot, and in most cases, that "virtual pivot" location changes as the rear suspension compresses.

Most of the time, the designer uses this to create a "more desirable??" axle path, that matches their theory on what is "more desirable". But in all cases, the forces involved at any given position of suspension travel are calculated using a single pivot point, and ARE IDENTICAL to what would happen if the suspension were a single pivot swingarm rotating around that point.

This is not to say that all suspension designs are equal regarding their management of braking forces. Pivot location is the single most important factor in this, BUT, again, when it comes to force reactions, all bikes are single pivot....

While the controvervy brews, I would like anyone involved to please show me how this is not true. Show by use of free body diagrams and vector force analysis....

Please don't use anyone's website/marketing propaganda as proof (including ours). Most of that stuff is written by marketing geniuii, who are going to create a line that they think sounds plausible, and that the uninformed consumer will buy (except ours of course, more on that later)..


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## TheSherpa (Jan 15, 2004)

shock said:


> But if you tried it you might change your mind???


Make me one for my new V-10 and i'll compare the too.

-TS


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

The reason is not all hubs have the space between the spoke flange and the frame mounting surface to be able to install the bearings and the caliper arm.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Boy...*



shock said:


> You are incorrect in your statement that a horst link bike moves independently of braking forces. The brkae caliper on any bike, regardless of suspension design, is attached via solid steel bolts to the same piece of hardware that the rear wheel is attached to. Therefore, the braking forces have NO CHOICE, the reaction force MUST BE transmitted through those bolts, to the very piece of hardware they are attached to. There is no way around this....
> 
> A couple of related points.....ALL BIKES ARE SINGLE PIVOT!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


I think you are somewhat confused. The seatstay that the brake attaches too on the FSR is actually seperate from the suspension, so the chainstay and shock are still able to move independently of the brake through it's travel.

And if that's not the case then how come when I sit my FSR and cycle my travel how come the caliper doesn't rotate around the rotor like it does on my Rocker Link single pivot 4-bar KSH FR2000 or my buds Gemini? Can you please explain that and I don't need any diagrams or vector force analysis, just a nice simple concise explanation would suffice. Thanks.


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

red5 said:


> I think you are somewhat confused. The seatstay that the brake attaches too on the FSR is actually seperate from the suspension, so the chainstay and shock are still able to move independently of the brake through it's travel.
> 
> And if that's not the case then how come when I sit my FSR and cycle my travel how come the caliper doesn't rotate around the rotor like it does on my Rocker Link single pivot 4-bar KSH FR2000 or my buds Gemini? Can you please explain that and I don't need any diagrams or vector force analysis, just a nice simple concise explanation would suffice. Thanks.


no, he's not the one confused. Its what i said above but everyone seemed to ignore, the FSR will provide somewhat corrected wheel orientation through the travel in order to improve the traction issues, but does not isolate the suspension forces because they are all part of the same system as Brian stated. Its the same principal to why Lawills require a floater, because that particular geometry has a much greater influence on the system, causing severe jack; but essentially, the configuration is the same as the Horst.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

red5 said:


> The seatstay that the brake attaches too on the FSR is actually seperate from the suspension, so the chainstay and shock are still able to move independently of the brake through it's travel.


The seat stay is not seperate from the suspension. They are actually bolted together with a bearing.

Try and move your chainstay and shock without moving the seatstay and brake caliper bolted assembly. When the suspension & brake is completely assembled it can't be done.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

red5 said:


> The reason your bud loves his floater is because his Orange is an SP (single pivot) bike and has horrible brake jack without it. Honestly, you will not seen or feel any marked improvement in your Big Hit with a floater. The only thing you will notice is the big empty space in your wallet/bank account where your money used to be.
> 
> I guarantee you the guys at Therapy will try to tell you otherwise though. They will insist it will make a difference and from their point of view it's understandable, afterall their job is to sell floating brake setups. And since your inquiring to them, you will appear to not know the difference between a bike that needs a floater and one that doesn't. Which makes you an easy mark.
> 
> In the end it's your money, waste it how you'd like. If you don't mind my asking what year is your Big Hit?


Mr. red5, I have a few questions for you. Have you ever ridden any bike equipped with a Brake Therapy floating brake? Have you ridden any bike equipped with ANY floating brake, ours or otherwise? (and of course all floaters are not created equal, more on that later). Would you please list your experience in back to back testing of bikes with and without floating brakes?

Because in order for you to answer "honestly" as in your quote above, certainly you must have some experience to back up those statements. If you have tested our floating brake, and felt no "marked improvement" have you asked for your money back? Why not?

Yes, the "guys at Therapy" (me) will tell you otherwise. It is not our (my) job to tell you otherwise. It is our job to provide solutions to real problems. We have no interest in designing, manufacturing, or selling ANY product that does not provide a noticable, real improvement to the riding experience.

We made floating brakes to answer a need/demand, not to market "snake oil" to unsuspecting consumers. I have absolutely no interest in that. I love the fact that our customers are (without exception) very enthusiastic about our products and the difference they make in improving the quaility of their riding experience.

I absoluty have NO INTEREST in selling products because someone is AN EASY MARK!!!!! Your reference to being a con man is not true and not appreciated. I offered the money back guarentee to allow people to try the floater, with NO OBLIGATION, and no chance of being ripped off.

I apoligize for taking umbrage at this point, but I do not like being compared to a con man....


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## TheSherpa (Jan 15, 2004)

shock said:


> Mr. red5, I have a few questions for you. Have you ever ridden any bike equipped with a Brake Therapy floating brake? Have you ridden any bike equipped with ANY floating brake, ours or otherwise? (and of course all floaters are not created equal, more on that later). Would you please list your experience in back to back testing of bikes with and without floating brakes?
> 
> Because in order for you to answer "honestly" as in your quote above, certainly you must have some experience to back up those statements. If you have tested our floating brake, and felt no "marked improvement" have you asked for your money back? Why not?
> 
> ...


Wow, your actually being quite professional and you've explained everything very well. But the real question is, will there be a floating brake for the new V-10's and how much do they weigh?

-TS


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Found his post with a review on the Brake Therapy floating brake installed on his V-10.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?postid=109925#poststop


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## TheSherpa (Jan 15, 2004)

CraigH said:


> Found his post with a review on the Brake Therapy floating brake installed on his V-10.
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?postid=109925#poststop


Yea, but i'm talking about those new fangled v-10's. Not a chance in hell i'm drilling into my frame though.

-TS


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

red5 said:


> But you know as well as I that regardless of the guarantee, if he believes it works even though it does nothing, he'll never want to return it. And I assure you their betting on that fact.


Ok, I'll admit it's possible that some (very few?) customers might be subject to the "self fulfilling prophecy" (hey engineering students have to take electives you know!), and may not ask for there money back because they "think" that it works and might be embarassed to ask for there money back, but, to this date, NO ONE has asked for there money back. Our paying customers range from top 20 pros, to casual riders, and I don't believe that ANY of them have kept there floater for this reason.

Seriously, at US$295.00, and 1/2 to 3/4 of a pound of weight, how many people do you think WOULDN'T ask for their money back if they didn't think it was worth it. Do you really think everyone is that gullible?

By the way, I never gamble. Not even in Las Vegas at Interbike. Not interested.

I design and make products to answer a demand for an existing problem. And if it wasn't for the demand of floating brakes it would be to continue our fork and shock development, or our (yet to be seen) cranks and bike designs that we're working on.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Slack said:


> Really? Care to expand on the performance enhancement you experienced?
> 
> Did you make your own or go with Therapy?
> 
> I would love to try one on my Turner, but drilling a straight hole in my frame worries me.


BTW, drilling the hole in your frame is 100% Dave Turner approved, and will not void your warreny in any way.....


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

zedro said:


> in the case of the V10, the floater was pretty redundant for most of the travel apparently. I guess it wasent worth offering in the first place but they did anyways for some reason.
> 
> Lawill designs on the other hand need a floater, otherwise they tend to brake jack.


Yes, the stock v-10 floater actually gave a black eye to floating brakes. We had several customers that had our floater on other bikes that asked us to make a floater for the v-10, claiming that the stock floater didn't work as well as ours.

If you look closely, you'll see that the stock floater rod attaches to the suspension link, thus imparting braking force into the suspension. It's really no wonder that pros (and others) started removing the floaters, claiming they were "ineffective". And also no wonder that the new v-10 comes without it. It wasn't really a "marketing success".


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

shock said:


> warreny .


Okay, you're cut off.

True though. I got an email from the DT holy man........therapy floaters and the required holes void no warranty.

And damnit one of these days I want to try one these things on a turner (mine).

And as far as FSR bikes having no brake interaction............BS. I've ridden Foes bikes with floaters and then hopped back on one my FSR bikes and there is most certainly a difference between how the rear end works with and without brakes...more so than the big dumb single pivot foes bikes. Shock is right about axle paths. Most FSRs and specialized bikes in particular do nothing to act differently than single pivots that have their virtual pivot in a location that hinders wheel placement or sane bike design. Map it out. The big hit virtual pivot puts it in the way of the wheel or the bottom bracket if I remember correctly.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Mr. Grimm said:


> I m rolling a 03 Big Hit. First off, I am not a racer. I go out on Saturdays and do some DHing and do street riding once or twice during the week. So I may or may not notice a difference with a floating rear brake, but I do ride in Australia. Australia has more than its fair share of rocks, and I was interested in finding a way to smooth out rough braking sections (believe me, I do play with my shock settings, tire pressures, and even play with my forks (not as much as Zedro, but Shivers are pretty simple)). But lets get to the point; it's all about physics. Now my first year of college is a drunken blur, but I do remember some stuff. Remember that vector stuff Red5? You see the suspension is doing it's job while the braking system is adding addition forces into the picture (hence creating vectors), it would seem to me that I one were to eliminate an outside force then the one could have the suspension suspend the bike, and the braking system stop the bike independent of another... Now don't kill me Zedro, I m not an engineer. What do you boys think? And Red5, I am not a retard, you write in a very condescending tone; just chill guy and spread the love...
> 
> Thanks
> ~Gary


Ok, so don't worry about the first year being a drunken blur, it's the last two years that you really get to the good stuff... having said that you must have retained some sense of physics thru the alchohol...

Yes, imagine your perfectly tuned suspension, spring and damping rates perfectly setup to deal with your rider weight, riding style, and terrain. All of a sudden you introduce up to 1000 pounds of (braking) force. Where's your compromise now?

Removing this force is a good thing. Even a slow retard like me can tell the difference...

BTW, saying it's the susensions fault is a little of base, if it's your suspension tuning, you will feel it whether you're on the brakes or not. The purpose of a floating brake is to let that "all conquering" suspension design/setup to continue working when you introduce the braking force....


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> Okay, you're cut off.
> 
> True though. I got an email from the DT holy man........therapy floaters and the required holes void no warranty.
> 
> ...


Hey, you can't cut me off unless you're the one serving my drinks!!!!

And you were supposed to make your own floater, what happened!!!!


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

quote by red5" Actually my reference to bikes that squat was not in reference to running a floater, but to a specific bike design itself. Big Hit's actually remain neutral when the brakes applied, whereas single pivots,like the Bullit and Gemini, tend to rise and stiffen which makes them unable to react to the terrain with the brakes applied. "

On this point, I must claim absolute bs. Bullits and Gemini's and fsr's (and most bikes) exhibit a tendency to squat under braking. This is not so much felt as the rear of the bike actually compressing, as much as the suspensions inability to extend over the back side of bumps. Not entirely disimilar to having WAY too much rebound damping. Therefore the wheel comes of the ground on the back side of the bump, creaing many bad things when it hits the next bump.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

shock said:


> Hey, you can't cut me off unless you're the one serving my drinks!!!!
> 
> And you were supposed to make your own floater, what happened!!!!


It got more expensive than what you sell!!! 

You should see the contraption I've got at my house. It's embarassing. With the bearings I was able to find that actually allow me to keep my rotor and the heavy ass rod I drilled and tapped, I think I doubled the weight of my swingarm.......and it still won't fit on my hub. And it looks like a bunch of random hunks of machined aluminum.......which it is.

I'm defeated. At some point this winter.....after new ski boots and a rear wheel for my xc bike......I will be a customer of yours. It's too expensive not to be.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

zedro said:


> i'm not a serious racer, not even a non-serious racer. Why does having a well performing ride always have to be about racing?


Ex****ingsactley!!!! This is about making your ride better. I have floaters on all my bikes, including my socalled cross country race bike (no sarcastic comments from those I may socalled race against)

I just don't like the feeling of having my suspension compromised when I hit the brakes. And I don't have them on my bikes to sell more floaters.... 99% of my riding is in the woods, by myself

Ok, it's getting late and I have work to do, I'll get back to this tomorow....

Brian


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

CraigH said:


> Try and move your chainstay and shock without moving the seatstay and brake caliper bolted assembly.


Sure they move....UP. But the caliper does not rotate like it does on a single pivot. Maybe I'm not being clear when I say independent. What I mean is that the brake is not affected by the cycling of the suspension, it just sort of floats with the suspension but is not affected by it's movement.

However, when I do the same thing on my FR2000 (kona knock off) or my bud Gemini, the caliper moves alot. Even more interesting is when I compress the suspension on the Gemini and hold the brake the bike does not rebound until I release the brake. And on the FR when I do the same thing the rear tire actually moves back in it's rotation causing my cranks too move a bit. However on my Big Hit when I do this, neither of these attributes are present, The wheel does not move and the suspension is still completely active.


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## TheSherpa (Jan 15, 2004)

red5 said:


> Sure they move....UP. But the caliper does not rotate like it does on a single pivot. Maybe I'm not being clear when I say independent. What I mean is that the brake is not affected by the cycling of the suspension, it just sort of floats with the suspension but is not affected by it's movement.
> 
> However, when I do the same thing on my FR2000 (kona knock off) or my bud Gemini, the caliper moves alot. Even more interesting is when I compress the suspension on the Gemini and hold the brake the bike does not rebound until I release the brake. And on the FR when I do the same thing the rear tire actually moves back in it's rotation causing my cranks too move a bit. However on my Big Hit when I do this, neither of these attributes are present, The wheel does not move and the suspension is still completely active.


Wow. No-offense, but that test sounds about as conclusive as the Shiver between the legs flex test.

-TS


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

*What!?!?*



shock said:


> quote by red5" Actually my reference to bikes that squat was not in reference to running a floater, but to a specific bike design itself. Big Hit's actually remain neutral when the brakes applied, whereas single pivots,like the Bullit and Gemini, tend to rise and stiffen which makes them unable to react to the terrain with the brakes applied. "
> 
> On this point, I must claim absolute bs. Bullits and Gemini's and fsr's (and most bikes) exhibit a tendency to squat under braking. This is not so much felt as the rear of the bike actually compressing, as much as the suspensions inability to extend over the back side of bumps. Not entirely disimilar to having WAY too much rebound damping. Therefore the wheel comes of the ground on the back side of the bump, creaing many bad things when it hits the next bump.


So what your telling me is that when my bike goes over a bump the rear end doesn't drop? Now how is that possible? So now not only is my FSR a single pivot, but it's also a hardtail since the suspension doesn't move over bumps.

Could the reason my bikes rear wheel doesn't touch the ground on the backside of a bump is because the bike is in the air over the bump or maybe has already come in contact with the next trail irregularity.

Not sure what bike your riding, but if you rear wheel doesn't extend after a bump, then I'd say your bike is having problems. Not trying to be a dick, it actually comes natural most of the time, bt your claims seem somewhat bs.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

red5 said:


> Even more interesting is when I compress the suspension on the Gemini and hold the brake the bike does not rebound until I release the brake. .


Got a video of that?


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## Mr. Grimm (Jan 20, 2004)

*Thanks for coming in here and shedding a little light..*

So you have stated exactly what I felt the suspension was enduring when the brakes are applied. So here is the kicker, how and the hell do you make a floater work on a Big Hit. I have not see a big hit with a floater and am very curious about how the linkage can be done elegantly? Do you have any photos of Big Hits with your Floater setups? Do you make a floater for the Big Hit? Thanks for your time, hope your recovering from Inter-Bike..
Thanks man
~Gary


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> ....... and the heavy ass rod I drilled and tapped, I think I doubled the weight of my swingarm.......


i used a cut ski pole as a mock-up, and would of been fine to use had i not decided to use a threaded turnbuckle type setup.

still have an extra floating brake arm, although slightly defective (first run CNC), might have to put it to good use one day.

As for the floater discussion, everythings been said, its simply time for comprehension


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

shock said:


> Do you really think everyone is that gullible?


No not everyone, but definitely quite a few people.



shock said:


> I design and make products to answer a demand for an existing problem. And if it wasn't for the demand of floating brakes it would be to continue our fork and shock development, or our (yet to be seen) cranks and bike designs that we're working on.


And I don't dispute the need for your products in the mountain bike world. I guess as long as bike mfg's continue to make Gemini's, Bullit's, Hecklers, Kona's and other single pivot bikes, you'll still have business. Congrats.

So is your bike design going to have a floater?


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## Slack (Dec 30, 2003)

shock said:


> BTW, drilling the hole in your frame is 100% Dave Turner approved, and will not void your warreny in any way.....


Yeah, I know. It's not drilling a hole, so much as getting it parallel with the floater. The part of the frame that I need to drill (you already gave me the pdf instructions... thanks) into is at a slight angle.


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## Mr. Grimm (Jan 20, 2004)

*Anyone?*

Those that are running floaters what do you reckon? And does anyone have a photo of a bighit or similar (intense, azonic,.....) with a floater setup? Thanks group. I am glad this page is able to hammer out some issues once in awhile other than what is the best DH frame or where can i get a dh frok for cheap..
Thanks room..
~Gary


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

*"Honestly"...*



shock said:


> Mr. red5, I have a few questions for you. Have you ever ridden any bike equipped with a Brake Therapy floating brake? Have you ridden any bike equipped with ANY floating brake, ours or otherwise? (and of course all floaters are not created equal, more on that later). Would you please list your experience in back to back testing of bikes with and without floating brakes?
> 
> Because in order for you to answer "honestly" as in your quote above, certainly you must have some experience to back up those statements. If you have tested our floating brake, and felt no "marked improvement" have you asked for your money back? Why not?
> 
> ...


I can tell you that I have never ridden a bike with a floater, yours or otherwise. I have never said that a floater does not make a "marked improvement" on every bike design, except one. In fact I have stated quite the opposite.

I beleive your floaters serve a very important purpose and if you asked me everyone owning a single pivot bike should be using one. So I don't beleive your selling "snake oil" and therefore do not beleive you to be a con man. All I was trying to tell the poster was that he should be very careful and understand just exactly how much improvement the floater is actually going to make, before shelling out money. And not to be easily persuaded by some sensationalist claims that a floater will change his bikes braking, like it did his buds Orange. Because it won't, at least not too the same degree or level.

But now let me ask you a couple questions, if you wouldn't mind. Have you ever sold a floater to anyone owning a Big Hit? And if so why? Can you honestly tell me it's makes such a marked improvement that it warrants spending $300.00?

Now along the same premise of riding bikes with floaters. I can tell you I have ridden many different bikes that didn't have them and notice brake jack, though varying degrees, on every bike design.

I apologize if it appeared I was making you out to be a con man, that was not my intention. And completely understand you feelings about my reference regarding the possiblity of his being taken advantage of. He just seemed so taken by the fact that his FSR could be made better that I didn't want him to call you guys up and have it go something like this...

Big Hit rider: Hello brake therapy. Will a floater make my Big Hit brake better?
floater salesman: Well, sure it will.
big Hit rider: COOL! I'll take it. Here's my CC info.
floater salesman: No problem, thanks for your business. Cha-Ching.

That would be wrong. I wanted to make sure he asked the right questions and make sure he got the correct informed answers, that was all. It is not my intention to attack people's character and business practices, unless I have dealt with them first hand and had issues.

Again I'm sorry for any misleading or implied character references regarding your business practices.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

I gotta go shovel snow now...........

There are some pictures of M1's with floaters around somewhere..............


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

*No worries...*



TheSherpa said:


> Wow. No-offense, but that test sounds about as conclusive as the Shiver between the legs flex test.
> 
> -TS


I'm not offended. I may not have a degree in vector forces or any applied science, but I inderstand the tests and diagrams I have seen by those who do. And while all that is fine and dandy, I still prefer to see real world results. And the facts speak for themselves.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Single pivot bikes try to squat a lot under braking.
Horst link bikes squat less (some don't squat, some are almost as bad as the single pivots).

Yes you can fit a floater to a bighit, but the difference won't be as big. You may not even notice it.

My Turner is pretty close to a parallel linkage, it's the best braking bike I've ridden.


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

Brian.

I respect that you're here to correct a few myths about your product. You may not realise it, but you're throwing around many myths of your own.
Your understanding of suspension geometry and behaviour, as expounded below, is flawed. Severely.

You claim horst links are single pivots, yet the very system you are selling is very similar in geometry to a horst link rear end.

The virtual pivot of a suspension system has no influence on the braking behaviour. The braking behaviour is a direct result of the rotation (with respect to the main frame) experienced by the link which the caliper is bolted to.

Single pivots experience the most rotation and hence the worst braking squat.
Horst links experience less rotation and less squat.
The ideal parrallelogram experiences the least squat and hence the best braking behaviour.

It is this behaviour you are trying to mimick with your floaters, but it is also this which is approximated by many bikes already.

Brakiing behaviour is no secret, automotive suspension has headed away from calipers mounted on trailing arms for years. Many touring and performance motorbikes use either floaters or four bar rear ends (BMW paralever) to correct braking behaviour.

Noone advertises floating rear brakes for a BMW paralever for a very good reason, there is no improvement to be made.

Brian, please do some homework and stick to the facts you know are correct. I am willing to take up your freebody diagram challenge if you would like. But I am quite busy and only have a dial-up connection.



shock said:


> You are incorrect in your statement that a horst link bike moves independently of braking forces. The brkae caliper on any bike, regardless of suspension design, is attached via solid steel bolts to the same piece of hardware that the rear wheel is attached to. Therefore, the braking forces have NO CHOICE, the reaction force MUST BE transmitted through those bolts, to the very piece of hardware they are attached to. There is no way around this....
> 
> A couple of related points.....ALL BIKES ARE SINGLE PIVOT!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


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## Mr. Grimm (Jan 20, 2004)

*Interesting.........*

Kona's new Stinky Supreme/ Stab Supreme are coming factory with a floating rear brake... Now this is not your typical "Single Pivot Bike", and I realize that it's not a horst linkage suspension, but I feel it would fall pretty close to a specialized.... 
?????


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

Mr. Grimm said:


> Kona's new Stinky Supreme/ Stab Supreme are coming factory with a floating rear brake... Now this is not your typical "Single Pivot Bike", and I realize that it's not a horst linkage suspension, but I feel it would fall pretty close to a specialized....
> ?????


Not really, actually it's still just a single pivot. As long as the rear wheel's axle is connected directly to the main swingarm, like a bullit, it will show very much the same attributes when it comes to braking. Hence the reason they have floaters. However it will have a much different suspension feel than a cantilever beam or swingarm, Bullit, driven single pivot. See pic for reference...


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## Mr. Grimm (Jan 20, 2004)

*I see..... I think......*

Physics and myself parted ways along time ago... I went into the sciences, and am really wishing I spent more time drawing freebody diagrams. I really wish I could do a section with my bike, then slip the floater on and then redo the section and get a good comparison. $300 is a chunk of change, but I think my current Hugi hub will work. As far as weight goes not too worried about that aspect, my bike is already a beast, but take a look at this gem below.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

Mr. Grimm said:


> Physics and myself parted ways along time ago... I went into the sciences, and am really wishing I spent more time drawing freebody diagrams. I really wish I could do a section with my bike, then slip the floater on and then redo the section and get a good comparison. $300 is a chunk of change, but I think my current Hugi hub will work. As far as weight goes not too worried about that aspect, my bike is already a beast, but take a look at this gem below.


Yeah I hear you. With all the conjecture in this thread, I'd really like to if there is indeed a difference. I highly doubt it would be enough to notice, but I love technology and trying new things. I beleive that more than anything is why I still ride bikes. There is just so much cool stuff to play and experiment with, that it never gets old.

If you do decide to give the floater a try, please be sure and let us all know how it goes.


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## Mr. Grimm (Jan 20, 2004)

*Here you go boys, I found some heavy stuff here..*

I have read this one twice, and I am still confused... I hate being a retard...
Maybe the rest of you can sort it out..

http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/english/chapter5_3.htm#FalseClaimsforFloatingBrakes

http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/english/

Not sure why the above links won't link, so you guys will have to do the ole cut and paste...

Have fun Zedro, you will be stoked on this one.

Cheers
~Gary


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

Mr. Grimm said:


> I have read this one twice, and I am still confused... I hate being a retard...
> Maybe the rest of you can sort it out..
> 
> http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/english/chapter5_3.htm#FalseClaimsforFloatingBrakes
> ...


Honestly, I've read alot of the info on that site and I for one don't agree with half the [email protected] this guys is babbling about. Seems science can't answer everything. But then again I'm also not an engineer, so maybe that has something to do with it.


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## Mr. Grimm (Jan 20, 2004)

*Just one more setup that I have come across....*

I reckon this would be similar to the Kona situation. I really don't see how a floater can be run on the bighit, there is just not enough room unless you did like the older V-10's and attach it to the suspension linkage, but that would defeat the purpose of the floater.. I would be keen to give one a go, but I just can't see where one can be placed in an elegant manner...

Cheers
~gary


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Well...*



Mr. Grimm said:


> I reckon this would be similar to the Kona situation. I really don't see how a floater can be run on the bighit, there is just not enough room unless you did like the older V-10's and attach it to the suspension linkage, but that would defeat the purpose of the floater.. I would be keen to give one a go, but I just can't see where one can be placed in an elegant manner...
> 
> Cheers
> ~gary


in an effort squash all the conjecture and put this thread to rest, I have contacted shock about aquirring one of his floaters for my Big Hit to test the theories. We'll see what happens.

Somehow, to make the system work they'd have to have some sort of adapter to attach it to the main frame. To attach it to any of the linkages would actually defeat the purpose in isolating the brake forces from the rear triangle, so that most likely wouldn't work.


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

*Hey, now that'll be interesting.*



red5 said:


> in an effort squash all the conjecture and put this thread to rest, I have contacted shock about aquirring one of his floaters for my Big Hit to test the theories. We'll see what happens.
> 
> Somehow, to make the system work they'd have to have some sort of adapter to attach it to the main frame. To attach it to any of the linkages would actually defeat the purpose in isolating the brake forces from the rear triangle, so that most likely wouldn't work.


Yes...please follow through on that, and let's see how it works. If you install one on your BH, I feel like you'll be fair in your assessment. I'm probably going to put one on my Bullit, which is apparently a known improvement model for a floating brake. One interesting note about your caliper movement observation on Horst vs. single pivot designs: I have a modified '00 BH (pictured here) and tried your experiment. The travel on this bike is about 6.5". I tried it on one of my Bullits (pictured here) also. I locked the rear wheels in place, so as not to get any "roll" which would affect rotor/caliper movement. I actually could get rotor/caliper movement out of both bikes when compressing the rear suspension, though the Bullit had more movement. The Bullit has more travel and is easier to compress than my BH, so I don't know how scientific this is. The bottom line was that I could actually see rotor/caliper movement on the BH. I think there is less movement, and it seems to be "taken up" by the chainstay articulating fairly dramatically, so I guess this is where the Horst "advantage" occurs. I do see noticeable rotor/caliper movement, however, but since it seems smaller, this is probably why the braking influence is not as great. There must be some influence, and it would be great to see how the floating brake affects it.


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## DH'er16 (Jan 28, 2004)

Gramatica said:


> Intresting.... Isent vpp considered a 4 bar as well?


I dont think it is, at least it isn't the same as the horst link 4 bar, thats for sure. Thats why they are two seperate patents held by two different companies.

You can definitely notice some brake jack on the v10 sitting in th parking lot bouncing up and down, but on the trail that 10 inches of travel tends to level things no matter what.


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

Mr. Grimm said:


> I have read this one twice, and I am still confused... I hate being a retard...
> Maybe the rest of you can sort it out..
> 
> http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/english/chapter5_3.htm#FalseClaimsforFloatingBrakes
> ...


thats been around for a long time now (few years) and is pretty much 99% garbage. They dont prove their "proofs" (thats why its hard to understand), they completly fluff over important concepts and come up with some really wrong or spotty conclusions. Whats funny is the Linkage software that was hyperlinked to that thesis lets you debunk alot of the stuff they claim. Dont waste your time on it, your better off scouring Ridemonkey for key info.

And BTW...the VPP is a 4 bar....it has 4 bars...just like Lawills, DWs, Stinkys.....4 bar linkage is a generic engineering term to describe the number of linkage members, regardless of their application.


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## kidwoo (Aug 11, 2004)

zedro said:


> thats been around for a long time now (few years) and is pretty much 99% garbage. They dont prove their "proofs" (thats why its hard to understand), they completly fluff over important concepts and come up with some really wrong or spotty conclusions. Whats funny is the Linkage software that was hyperlinked to that thesis lets you debunk alot of the stuff they claim. Dont waste your time on it, your better off scouring Ridemonkey for key info.


Dooooood. That's my most favoritist researchiest paper ever. I've had that thing bookmarked for a year now. Just remember kids........Nature Varies Smoothly. Ahaah I love it. Science!!!! I can make up anything with a broad generalization and then cite myself to "prove" something later. Whoohoo. It's like reading Anne Coulter but for bikes!!


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

*OK,I'm back, wow you guys were busy today.....*



TheSherpa said:


> Make me one for my new V-10 and i'll compare the too.
> 
> -TS


I'm I the only one that has to work away from the computer during the day?

Ok, where do I start, yes we will make one for the new v-10. Nothing in the new design makes me think that our floater won't work as well on it as the old one, but the new one might be a little more challenging, and will probably still require a hole drilled.

BTW, ladge, the guy that posted the review of the floater on the old v-10, had to return his frame under warrenty, and they didn't seem to care about the hole (am I right on this Ladge?)


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

*you know Craig, that tick creeps me out, I start feelin em!*



CraigH said:


> The reason is not all hubs have the space between the spoke flange and the frame mounting surface to be able to install the bearings and the caliper arm.


To be more specific, all hubs have the same room between the brake disc mount and dropout, but in particular, shimano (including saint) and wtb have a loose ball bearing assembly on the axle, which prevents us from installing the floater bearing assembly, most cartridge bearing hubs we can handle.....


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

red5 said:


> I think you are somewhat confused. The seatstay that the brake attaches too on the FSR is actually seperate from the suspension, so the chainstay and shock are still able to move independently of the brake through it's travel.
> 
> And if that's not the case then how come when I sit my FSR and cycle my travel how come the caliper doesn't rotate around the rotor like it does on my Rocker Link single pivot 4-bar KSH FR2000 or my buds Gemini? Can you please explain that and I don't need any diagrams or vector force analysis, just a nice simple concise explanation would suffice. Thanks.


What I actually said was that the brake caliper is bolted to the same peice of metal (the seatstay) that the wheel is bolted to. With no pivots whatsoever between the two, thus when the brake approaches lockup, the wheel, brake and seatstay become one solid lump, actuating the suspension through the contact patch of the tire with the ground.

And as Zedro pointed out below, they are not independant of the suspension, as they are most certainly linked with a very hard point (unless it's that Banshee someone posted with broken pivot bolts)

This whole thing about the caliper rotating is a bit irrelavent, I could show you single pivots that look very similar to an fsr in this regard. more on this rotation later...dinners ready..


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## knollybikes.com (Jan 8, 2004)

*As someone who has spent a LOT of time analyzing this...*

The truth lies somewhere in the middle and I think that Zedro nailed it way back in the early posts on this thread:

A floating brake transmits the braking forces from the rear caliper to the frame independently of the frame's regular suspension components.

When doing frame design, there are three main aspects that are looked at (there are actulally a couple of dozen overall, but three big ones):

1) pedal induced suspension movement (pedal bob)
2) suspension induced pedal movement (pedal kickback)
3) braking forces

A brake caliper mounted to a frame component (whether single pivot or four bar) will transmit some of the braking force to the frame and hence the braking force will "work" on the shock (cause the shock to compress or extend). The degree to which this happens is how much we notice the effect of braking on other aspects of the bike.

There is NO RIGHT OR WRONG here. OK, well, there are some designs that are definitely better and worse, but there are also some very good - but different - designs that work well for different people.

As has been said - single pivot bikes exhibit BY FAR the most noticeable braking forces on their rear shock. Unlike what 95% of people say, this is actually called brake SQUAT - almost all single pivot bikes on the market today exhibit brake SQUAT. This includes bikes like the Bullit, Foes, RMX, Konas, Banshes, Oragne, etc... 
The problem with brake squat is that the braking forces cause the rear shock to COMPRESS (and to stay compressed), effectively preloading the shock. Now, your shock can't extend your suspension to absorbe the next bump (or roll down the backside of the current bump), limiting traction (since the tire is not in contact with the ground as much) and making for a rough ride.
However, there is a big advantage to brake squat: if you're riding down fairly smooth and steep terrain, the squating of the back of the bike will help to counteract the diving of the fork at the front (which always dives under braking).
There are a few designs that exhibit brake JACK - the shock extending - But they are not that common in the high end FR marketplace.

Chainstay pivot four bar bikes (i.e. Horst, FSR, etc... bikes like some Turners, Specialized, Norcos, Titus, and of course Knolly  are different in that they can help to isolate some of the braking forces. However, remember way at the the top I explained that there are three main things that are looked at: bob, kickback, and brake interaction? A four bar bike has to tune ALL of these to their best level for a certain application. The downside, is that no one suspension system can make each situation perfect. The other downside is that even if it could be perfect, the geometries change as the suspension is compressed, so even a perfectly neutral design will not be perfect throughout the range of travel.

Let's look at the Knolly V-tach for example, since this is obviously the design I know best! There are MANY design considerations that have affected how well the bike deals with pedal bob, pedal kick back and brake interaction, as well as many, many other considerations (room for massive bearings, tire clearance, lateral stiffness, chainstay length, serviceability, durability, etc...). Believe it or not, all of those "smaller concerns" affect how well you can tune the main three design parameters.

Would it surprize you if I said that the V-tach is NOT designed to be the best pedalling FR bike out in the market? Would it surprize you if I said that the V-tach is NOT designed to be the most neutral braking bike on the planet? Would it still surprize you if I said that the V-tach is NOT designed to give the least pedal feedback? 
Well, it's true. And the reason that it's true, is because if you were to tune one of those parameters to 100% effectiveness, it would drastically (i.e. NEGATIVELY) affect all other parameters to a fairly large degree.

What does this have to do with brake interaction? Well, the V-tach is designed to have some brake squat under braking. How much? Well, a lot less than any single pivot bike, but it's certainly not "neutral" at any point in it's suspension. It might exhibit - let's say - 25 - 35% of what a "typical" single pivot bike would exhibit - and this 25-35% is what I'm guessing Brian from Brake Therapy is capitalizing on for four bar linkage bikes.

To make the V-tach 100% neutral (impossible throughout the ENTIRE travel range - even for a completely floating brake), compromises would have to be be made that would limit the other features of the bike to below acceptable performance levels. On top of that, many suspension designers believe that a small amount of rear brake squat is a good thing, in that it helps to offset some of the fork dive as I mentioned before. The V-tach does a small amount of that on purpose, since the bike is designed to be ridden at slow speeds on exceptionally steep terrain. As an aside - next time you buy a bike that's advertized as the "best pedalling bike on the planet" think about what compromized they have made - because they certainly have made some.

So, you as a customer have to ask yourself if this is worth your money AND if this is the really the solution that you're after.

My personal opinion is that there are much better places to spend $300 USD on your Bighit: as one person said - the rear shock would be the most reasonable place to start.

You will certainly be able to make your braking more "neutral" with an aftermarket floating brake, but you have to ask yourself if it is the best place to spend your money (for a single pivot bike - no question - it is an awesome upgrade), and if it is even going to give you the feeling that you want.

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't buy this type of product. However, you own a well designed four bar linkage bike which will exhibit very little brake squat compared to any single pivot bike. Only you can decide if the money is worth it and if this invesment makes sense for you.

Regards,


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

I had an encounter with a Deer Tick when riding down in Oregon, back in May.
They go for the warm fuzzy bits... Nothing like performing surgery on yourself with a swiss army knife, a sewing needle, and a set of tweezers.

Thanks for the info on the hubs.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Great post Noel! 

Thanks for spending the time to type up all of that.


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## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

His frame was over a year old, so I think he was under the no fault replacement.


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## TNC (Jan 21, 2004)

*Darned illuminating, Noel.*



knollybikes.com said:


> The truth lies somewhere in the middle and I think that Zedro nailed it way back in the early posts on this thread:
> 
> A floating brake transmits the braking forces from the rear caliper to the frame independently of the frame's regular suspension components.
> 
> ...


These compromises to get a good all-around suspension action...do you come to these final design conclusions through the use of computer programs only, or do you do much physical prototype testing? And do you tend to find any "boo boos" in what the programs directed versus how the final product actually perfomed? It's seems downright scary that these programs are that good in making these predictions, but I guess it works. Thanks for your input into this very informative floating brake issue.


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

knollybikes.com said:


> .... single pivot bikes exhibit ....brake SQUAT - .....The problem with brake squat is that the braking forces cause the rear shock to COMPRESS (and to stay compressed), effectively preloading the shock. Now, your shock can't extend your suspension to absorbe the next bump (or roll down the backside of the current bump), limiting traction (since the tire is not in contact with the ground as much) and making for a rough ride.
> .,


once again Noel has the patience for a very thorough write-up. :thumbs-up:

i'd just like to add to why i believe some people perceive single pivots, who technically squat as mentioned, to jack instead. What i believe is happening here has to do with the squat tendency to load-up the suspension when traction is present, but at the same time traction is being comprimised when the suspension is trying to cycle through bumps(do to the relative angular rotation of the wheel/caliper vs. the ground). On some bikes this produces the stuttering effect, where the tire is intermittently skidding with the limited suspension movement; in the worse case scenario, the loss of traction (weither through skidding or a void in the terrain), the same traction which is inducing the squat in the first place, will cause the suspension to unload, giving a 'jacking' sensation (stop giggling perverts!). I believe this effect is magnified more with high pivot bikes like the Bullit (as opposed to say a Stinky), although i'm not sure if this has more to do with rear braking characteristics (more squat 'energy' to unload and worse traction characteristics) or the suspension geometries tendency to want to dive more (thats the part that makes my brain hurt). Uhh, just ignore that last sentence for now...


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Thanx...*



knollybikes.com said:


> The truth lies somewhere in the middle and I think that Zedro nailed it way back in the early posts on this thread:
> 
> A floating brake transmits the braking forces from the rear caliper to the frame independently of the frame's regular suspension components.
> 
> ...


for all that, very informative indeed. I stand before you a better more enlightened man. I guess my bike and I need to spend more time together, I seems it has some traits that I've been unaware of to date. Thanks again.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Mr. Grimm said:


> So you have stated exactly what I felt the suspension was enduring when the brakes are applied. So here is the kicker, how and the hell do you make a floater work on a Big Hit. I have not see a big hit with a floater and am very curious about how the linkage can be done elegantly? Do you have any photos of Big Hits with your Floater setups? Do you make a floater for the Big Hit? Thanks for your time, hope your recovering from Inter-Bike..
> Thanks man
> ~Gary


Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of the big hit floater, but here's an M-1, similar design, and the floater attaches in the same way.

This particular customer, I believe races expert, and owns a bike shop. He emailed Intense after testing the floater and told them this is th eway the bike should have been made in the first place...


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

red5 said:


> I can tell you that I have never ridden a bike with a floater, yours or otherwise. I have never said that a floater does not make a "marked improvement" on every bike design, except one. In fact I have stated quite the opposite.
> 
> I beleive your floaters serve a very important purpose and if you asked me everyone owning a single pivot bike should be using one. So I don't beleive your selling "snake oil" and therefore do not beleive you to be a con man. All I was trying to tell the poster was that he should be very careful and understand just exactly how much improvement the floater is actually going to make, before shelling out money. And not to be easily persuaded by some sensationalist claims that a floater will change his bikes braking, like it did his buds Orange. Because it won't, at least not too the same degree or level.
> 
> ...


Ok, apologies accepted. It does get my dander up when the only people that can say anything negative about us or floating brakes are the people that have never tried them....contradicting thousands of happy customers who love theirs....

To answer your questions, we have sold floaters for many "horst link/fsr" bikes, including big hits, m-1's and loco motos, and some others I'm not thinking of at the moment...

Why, because in EVERY case, it makes a very noticable improvement in braking power and rider control (due to better rear suspension action). Period.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

Dougal said:


> Brian.
> 
> I respect that you're here to correct a few myths about your product. You may not realise it, but you're throwing around many myths of your own.
> Your understanding of suspension geometry and behaviour, as expounded below, is flawed. Severely.
> ...


Ah, mr dougal, your post is the exact reason that I asked for an argument backed up by a free body diagram......

Aren't you the same guy who was adamant that our Bullit floater would be bad because it wasn't a perfect parrallelogram?

And please show me how our floaters in any way shape or form resemble a horst link. And by the way, where the hell is this so called perfect parraleogram in any horst link bike? And how do you figure that the vpp or instant center has no effect on braking forces?

Quite the contrary, pivot location is the most important factor....whether that pivot is "hard" or virtual, the forces through the tires contact patch act throught that point.

I admit to being a little behind on the paralever, but the last I looked that was a front fork...

BTW, is anyone currently marketing aftermarket floaters for any motorcycle?

Believe it or not I have done a bit of homework on this subject...Prior to starting Therapy Components, I've spent the last 20 years designing suspension for race cars at the highest level, including Formula 1, Cart (indycars), world rally cars, Imsa GTP, Group C (lemans type sports cars) and others. This includes many design studies and tests to influence suspension behavior with braking forces, including anti-dive and anti-squat geometries...

My designs have won many races and championships, and it wasn't because I didn't do my homework.

Prior to that I was a shock development rider racing motocross, with and without floating brakes. We've been making floating brakes for mountain bikes for 6 years now, including for many fsr bikes, (and as I said before, without a single request for a refund)

And by the way, supplied the floating brake for the world champion (Fabien Barel) this year (in a decidedly NON perfect parraleogram).

I do my homework and will continue to do so, AND I'm on dial up......


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

kidwoo said:


> Dooooood. That's my most favoritist researchiest paper ever. I've had that thing bookmarked for a year now. Just remember kids........Nature Varies Smoothly. Ahaah I love it. Science!!!! I can make up anything with a broad generalization and then cite myself to "prove" something later. Whoohoo. It's like reading Anne Coulter but for bikes!!


Yeah, that one is a good one, a perfect example of an "engineer" (but not a real one) trying to baffle with bs. I'm quite fond of the bike modelled as a block sliding across a plane.....so much bs in his equations you can't possibly connect the dots, but I really like the macho triathelon photo....

And kidwoo, bonus points for the obscure Ann Coulter reference, but I doubt many people know who she is unless they watch politically incorrect, oops I mean real time or whatever he's calling his show now...


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

*And hello Noel from knolly bikes*

As others have stated, very well thought out and reasoned post. I can't disagree with any of it except perhaps the statement about a floater "not being worth it", but that's a bit subjective for any customer, and certainly depends on his wallet, riding style and terrain, and sensetivity to such issues, and therefore the money back gaurantee, if it's not worth it, send it back, period, even if you don't like the color.....

I do have one question, Noel. Have you tested any floating brake configurations for your bike? If not, I would be happy to loan you a test unit free of charge for your evaluation.

Please keep an open mind to the possibility that you may be pleasantly surprised....


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

My biggest problem with all of this is still, that at the moment, all of the people that state that a floater is not worth it, HAVE NOT TRIED IT!!!!!!!!!

Really this has no more validity than people saying my boxxer is better than your shiver, or my bullit/stab/m-1/giant/yeti/gemini/etc/etc/etc/etc is better than everything out there


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

shock said:


> My biggest problem with all of this is still, that at the moment, all of the people that state that a floater is not worth it, HAVE NOT TRIED IT!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Really this has no more validity than people saying my boxxer is better than your shiver, or my bullit/stab/m-1/giant/yeti/gemini/etc/etc/etc/etc is better than everything out there


dont worry Brian, i'm with ya, non-perfect pallelograms and all.

now wanna give me a job?


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

zedro said:


> dont worry Brian, i'm with ya, non-perfect pallelograms and all.
> 
> now wanna give me a job?


Yeah, hopefully someday I can hire someone to do my internet posting so I can get some work done (or drinkin, or both)

Actually someday I hope to hire some bright, open minded, young engineer to do all the hard thinking for me, unfortunately not quite yet, unless you work real cheap.

But you'd have to want to make cool stuff and ride your bike a lot testing (and for now, live in Indiana , noooooooooooooooo)

Who knows what the future holds, maybe after I conquer the world ONE FLOATING BRAKE AT A TIME..........

But for now, I got floors to sweep, goodnite all.....


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## Dougal (Jan 23, 2004)

shock said:


> Ah, mr dougal, your post is the exact reason that I asked for an argument backed up by a free body diagram......
> 
> Aren't you the same guy who was adamant that our Bullit floater would be bad because it wasn't a perfect parrallelogram?
> 
> ...


Let me know which of the following statements you agree with.

A floater is a four bar linkage resembling a parrallelogram. Horst links are also four bar linkages resembling a parallelogram.

The geometry (and braking performance) differs depending on which bike and model we're discussing. In exactly the same manner, the geometry of your floaters (and hence their performance) seems to vary largely depending on which bike you're fitting them to.

The rotation of the suspended link in any four bar linkage (horst link or floater) is defined by the IC, which is defined by the connecting links.

Do you agree this far?

I'm stating that a horst link and a single pivot with comparable IC positions will have comparable braking behaviour.

Do you also agree with this?


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## knollybikes.com (Jan 8, 2004)

*Some Answers!*



TNC said:


> These compromises to get a good all-around suspension action...do you come to these final design conclusions through the use of computer programs only, or do you do much physical prototype testing? And do you tend to find any "boo boos" in what the programs directed versus how the final product actually perfomed? It's seems downright scary that these programs are that good in making these predictions, but I guess it works. Thanks for your input into this very informative floating brake issue.


Ya, this is a tricky subject: software can definitely help out a lot, however, you really have to "know" how the software results translate into real world performance. Then, the ideal results might be tossed out the window simply because there's not enough room for a big fat tire, front derailleur and a large bearing pivot in a certain location. Sooo, compromises have to be made: That's why bikes end up with tire size limitations, longer chainstays, stiffer/flexier rear ends, etc...

A good Cad program with good 2D modeling can help get one started. There is a point of diminishing returns however. For example: you could model up the "three main design parameters" in a simulation software like Matlab Simulink, give them each a weighted input and get an answer. However, who really knows if you should "weight" the pedalling performance 59% instead of 58% and drop the braking neutrality from 65% to 64% as the trade off. 
Next thing you know, Nokian introduces the new 3.2" Gigantalozzi tire that everyone's after and all your suspension pivots have to be moved to accomodate this new tire. Now your pedalling performance drops to 56% and the brake neutrality goes down to 60%. Stuff like this happens...

That's a bit of an extreme example, but the mechanics of it are very real. Perhaps not for tire clearance any more (since the FR/DH industry has kind of stabilized around 2.5-2.7" tires), but certainly for things like pivot axle diameters, bearing diameters, chainstay length, new cranks on the market and other features. You'll probably find a HUGE range in the bike industry: some companies are still designing on paper, buying parts out of a Taiwanese catalogue, or perhaps welding their US made bikes up just based on what they think should be right. Others will have their bikes fully solid modeled up, have access to motion analysis software, and a whole gammet of Matlab or Excel tables and charts showing various trade offs.

Still, with only a hunch or all that information, bikes still come to market, work reasonably (or not very or exceptionally) well and get sold as much - if not more so - by marketing, not by design.

So, how's that for a long winded response that probably didn't tell you exactly what you wanted to know!!! 

Brian:

Sorry - I didn't mean to rain on your parade. I tried to make it very clear in my post that the customer has to make their own choice in terms of what performance upgrades they desire versus the cost of those upgrades. Yes, I certainly have my own biases, and my comment was not that the floating brake upgrade was "not worth the money", but in my opinion - if I had his setup - I would spend the money first on a new (or updated) rear shock, then consider a floating brake setup. This is simply because a chainstay pivot four bar bike receives less benifit from a floating brake, just as it receives less benifit from a platform damping shock compared to a single pivot bike. Additionally, I believe that under certain applications, a certain amount of brake squat is actually an advantage. These situations are probably more related to ultra steep terrain a slower speeds - more freeriding oriented. High speed DH racing would be a different story, and a more neutral brake setup may be prefered for those types of applications. Since the Bighit is a more FR oriented bike as opposed to a DH race bike, that was the basis of my decision.

If the customer was riding a single pivot bike, it would be a much more serious decision and I think that the performance benefits of the floating brake would easily be on par with the performance benefits of switching to a new rear shock. Again, as you state, it depends upon rider preference

Thanks for the offer on the brake kit - let's talk off line more about that!

Regards,


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## Mr. Grimm (Jan 20, 2004)

*That is quite elegant!*

Well, I have to say, I have heard a bit from everyong on this one. I have even consulted a buddy who is a Formula 3 engineer, and I have decided to go with a floater rear brake.. With a money back offer, how can you go wrong? I have had a look at the big hit frame, and I think there is room for the floater rod (I often run a 3.0 in the back, so not alot of space back there). So i am wondering if your kits have those sweet Carbon Rods? I will be sure and provide the room with a review of a floater setup on the big hit.. Like I said, I'm running an older Hugi rear hub, so I think I should be compatible. Thanks for the photo of the M1, I thinks it's time to put my money where my mouth is!
Cheers
~Gary

One more therapy question, if I go to a hub with a thru axle, will I have to get a new brake mount? Just wondering!
Thanks


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## Steve from JH (Dec 30, 2003)

Surely with this image we can see that Shock and Dougal are really not that far apart in their positions.

The Horst link shown, without the floater attached, has an IC that is somewhat ahead of the BB, in a position where a fixed pivot could not practically be placed. With the floater the IC is much farther forward.

Now the brake torque is determined by how high the IC is above the ground contact point. But the leverage that torque exerts on the frame depends on how far forward the IC is from the contact point.

Without the floater the bike will have reduced brake torque effect compared to a single pivot. With the floater the bike will have much more reduced brake torque effect compared to a single pivot.

It seems to me it's that simple.


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## Gramatica (Jun 25, 2004)

Please Lord let this thread die...it makes me sad on the inside.....


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

shock said:


> But you'd have to want to make cool stuff and ride your bike a lot testing .....


geez, talk about a sacrifice


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## DHbiker (Apr 23, 2004)

Talk about a long thread with a lot of information...


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## barrows (Jul 6, 2004)

*Actually*



shock said:


> As others have stated, very well thought out and reasoned post. I can't disagree with any of it except perhaps the statement about a floater "not being worth it", but that's a bit subjective for any customer, and certainly depends on his wallet, riding style and terrain, and sensetivity to such issues, and therefore the money back gaurantee, if it's not worth it, send it back, period, even if you don't like the color.....
> 
> I do have one question, Noel. Have you tested any floating brake configurations for your bike? If not, I would be happy to loan you a test unit free of charge for your evaluation.
> 
> Please keep an open mind to the possibility that you may be pleasantly surprised....


The site you are referring to does state that a floating brake would be benificial to a single high pivot bike with a predominately rearward axle path. It also states that a V-10 features a predominately rearward axle path. One could conclude that they would agree that a floating brake would be beneficial for most dh, freeride bikes, as most feature rearward axle paths.


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

barrows said:


> The site you are referring to does state that a floating brake would be benificial to a single high pivot bike with a predominately rearward axle path. It also states that a V-10 features a predominately rearward axle path. One could conclude that they would agree that a floating brake would be beneficial for most dh, freeride bikes, as most feature rearward axle paths.


 actually thats faulty reasoning, requiring a floater is not due to the axle path, although the floater is tuned to the specific axle path.

if you read the whole thread, you'd find out that theres two factors: the relation between the rotation of the caliper vs. the axle path, and the mechanical transmission of forces between the caliper, axle and suspension.

should a single pivot have the exact same wheel path as say a V10, they would not perform the same under both factors.

and geez, how far back in the archives did you dig this one up?


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## barrows (Jul 6, 2004)

*It seems*



zedro said:


> actually thats faulty reasoning, requiring a floater is not due to the axle path, although the floater is tuned to the specific axle path.
> 
> if you read the whole thread, you'd find out that theres two factors: the relation between the rotation of the caliper vs. the axle path, and the mechanical transmission of forces between the caliper, axle and suspension.
> 
> ...


It seems that most people on this thread are ignoring the real braking force: the rearward force acting through the wheel axle on the swingarm, while torque forces from the caliper are somewhat relevant, the rearward braking force and its interaction with the axle path tangents at different points in the travel is the dominant force affecting rear suspension performance under braking.


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

barrows said:


> It seems that most people on this thread are ignoring the real braking force: the rearward force acting through the wheel axle on the swingarm, while torque forces from the caliper are somewhat relevant, the rearward braking force and its interaction with the axle path tangents at different points in the travel is the dominant force affecting rear suspension performance under braking.


 no we havent, its just been worded differently; thats involved factor number two i just mentioned:



> theres two factors: the relation between the rotation of the caliper vs. the axle path, *and the mechanical transmission of forces between the caliper, axle and suspension.*


 these two factors also inter-relate to each other indirectly. When talking about suspension, what you said is automatically assumed since suspension is all about the transmission of forces, and the (reaction) forces from the caliper is integral to the equation when talking about 4 bars.


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

*gotta get in on this...*

...although i am outta my league.

as a scientist and engineer (although as stated way outclassed in this field by many here) i decide to draw up the FBDs for a couple of the suspension lingages on my white board.

"Single Pivot": braking effects on a SP is a no brainer. braking torque is _pretty much directly_ transmitted to spring and damper.

"specialized patent": braking effects on a four bar with the front triangle/BB as link #1 and the rear wheel, brake caliper and dropout as link #3 is of course a little more complicated. (links two and four are chain and 'seat' stay respectively.

my problem is this:

assume:
-links one and three are the same length (rethinking this assumption is not even necessary, but I'll leave it here.)
-links two and four are the same length (irrelevant at the moment how they are sized relative to one and three.)
-when brakes are applied, wheel, caliper and link three become one rigid body (lockup)
-brake torque is apllied to the CM of link three

this is a parallelogram suspension linkage. it seems to me the braking torque applied to link three will cause a compressive load in the upper link (#4) and an equal tensile load in the lower link (#2). in this setup NO braking load has to be transmitted to the spring and damper at all, correct? what am i missing?

i dont think it is really necessary to sketch this out it is nothing more than a parallelogram 4-bar with a torque applied to the CM of one of the links.

how about a little education for me? thanks

chuffer


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## Mr. Grimm (Jan 20, 2004)

*Modify your FBD*

I will bet my left nut that your FBD (Free Body Diagram; for those in the viewing audience) is of the suspension in the "unloaded" position.. I drew up a few myself, and things started to change and get muddy when you drew the suspension halfway compressed.... Let me know what you think.
Cheers
Gary



chuffer said:


> ...although i am outta my league.
> 
> as a scientist and engineer (although as stated way outclassed in this field by many here) i decide to draw up the FBDs for a couple of the suspension lingages on my white board.
> 
> ...


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

Mr. Grimm said:


> I will bet my left nut that your FBD (Free Body Diagram; for those in the viewing audience) is of the suspension in the "unloaded" position.. I drew up a few myself, and things started to change and get muddy when you drew the suspension halfway compressed.... Let me know what you think.
> Cheers
> Gary


with parallel and equilengthed upper and lower links it appears that position in the suspension cycle doesnt matter

OK time for my lunch time ride.

maybe if this isnt clear when i get back i will draw what i seeing and write down basic statics stuff describing it. yeah statics.


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## Steve from JH (Dec 30, 2003)

chuffer said:


> ...although i am outta my league.
> 
> as a scientist and engineer (although as stated way outclassed in this field by many here) i decide to draw up the FBDs for a couple of the suspension lingages on my white board.
> 
> ...


You are basically right.

What you and some others are leaving out is that the brake force acts at the ground contact point. The line of the ground must therefore also be taken into account.

Your parallelogram linkage will produce no effect on the spring only if links 2 and 4 are parallel with the ground. As the suspension moves away from this parallel arrangement, some force, either compressing or extending, will be applied to the spring. Think of the trajectory of the ground contact point as the key. As you say the rear wheel, axle, and rear link can be thought of as acting like a single rigid body.


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## flymybike (Jan 6, 2004)

Steve from JH said:


> You are basically right.
> 
> What you and some others are leaving out is that the brake force acts at the ground contact point. The line of the ground must therefore also be taken into account.
> 
> Your parallelogram linkage will produce no effect on the spring only if links 2 and 4 are parallel with the ground. As the suspension moves away from this parallel arrangement, some force, either compressing or extending, will be applied to the spring. Think of the trajectory of the ground contact point as the key. As you say the rear wheel, axle, and rear link can be thought of as acting like a single rigid body.


Shush you! You'll give the Giant guys all the answers to there problems! hehehe


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

Steve from JH said:


> You are basically right.
> 
> What you and some others are leaving out is that the brake force acts at the ground contact point. The line of the ground must therefore also be taken into account.
> 
> Your parallelogram linkage will produce no effect on the spring only if links 2 and 4 are parallel with the ground. As the suspension moves away from this parallel arrangement, some force, either compressing or extending, will be applied to the spring. Think of the trajectory of the ground contact point as the key. As you say the rear wheel, axle, and rear link can be thought of as acting like a single rigid body.


 you guys are fundamentally wrong on this one.

first, the force vector acting at the ground is translated (as reaction forces) to the axle and caliper; once you do that only those reaction forces are required to calcuate the suspension effects (ie. segregate the individual systems involved).

As for the parallel linkage (even in the universe where you neglected the COM of the decellerating frame among other things), there is no "neutral" point, the suspension will react, in this case to extend.



chuffer said:


> it seems to me the braking torque applied to link three will cause a compressive load in the upper link (#4) and an equal tensile load in the lower link (#2).


 this should of tipped you off since the force system is not resolved. Even having equal and opposite forces in this system will cause a moment translated to the frame, ie. the torque on link 3 (axle/brake) is transmitted to link 1 (the frame), your symetrical example system mearly simplified the calculation.

I think the fundamental error you guys are making is grouping the whole system into one FBD like its a rigid member (and ignoring certain components) when really each rigid member between pivots has its own system. Not to mention the COM is completly ignored, although i'm guessing that was on purpose for the example.

if you need an analogy, think of a crank and driver linked by rigid pushrods; when those pushrods become parallel to each other, the system isnt stalled.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

*omg, this is getting too messy, maybe I can make it worse*



Steve from JH said:


> Surely with this image we can see that Shock and Dougal are really not that far apart in their positions.
> 
> The Horst link shown, without the floater attached, has an IC that is somewhat ahead of the BB, in a position where a fixed pivot could not practically be placed. With the floater the IC is much farther forward.
> 
> ...


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

*and someone show my anything resembling a parralelogram out of these links*

A couple of people keep making a comment about how an fsr rear suspension is a parralegram. Someone connect the dots on these links and show me a parraleogram. It's not even close.

Even our most imperfect parralelogram floater is waaay closer than this is.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

*chuffer, I am confused on several of your points....*



chuffer said:


> ...although i am outta my league.
> 
> as a scientist and engineer (although as stated way outclassed in this field by many here) i decide to draw up the FBDs for a couple of the suspension lingages on my white board.
> 
> ...


Please clarify:

You said that the wheel, dropout and caliper are link 3, but the seatstay is link 4. In my terminology, those are actually the same piece, i.e. seatstay has dropout in it...

and again, where is the parralogram here!


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Lunch break...*



shock said:


> Please clarify:
> 
> You said that the wheel, dropout and caliper are link 3, but the seatstay is link 4. In my terminology, those are actually the same piece, i.e. seatstay has dropout in it...
> 
> and again, where is the parralogram here!


or are sales that bad you have to spend your day on here posting to dead threads? 

People, let it go already. Jeez.


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

*again I'm confused, by upper and lower links do you meant seatstay and chainstay?*



chuffer said:


> with parallel and equilengthed upper and lower links it appears that position in the suspension cycle doesnt matter
> 
> OK time for my lunch time ride.
> 
> maybe if this isnt clear when i get back i will draw what i seeing and write down basic statics stuff describing it. yeah statics.


How can the be parralel when they're connected by a pivot? (on an fsr type, not lawill)


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

*we're on east cost time, so it's after hours.......*



red5 said:


> or are sales that bad you have to spend your day on here posting to dead threads?
> 
> People, let it go already. Jeez.


Besides, if sales were that bad I'd be offering them to people for half price just to get them to try it.....

But as long as people keep starting it up again, I like to participate..

So one more simple model (which leaves out lots of "stuff", but it's an easy visual..

Ok, lets agree that most supension bikes have a pivot point, either fixed in metal, aka single pivot, or somewhere in space defined by some arrangement of links. The rear wheel then, swings around this point in a more or less circular path.

Now imagine this point to be directly above the axle, like an extremely high pivot. Now hit the brakes, which trys to drag the tire to the rear on the ground. Does the suspension compress? extend? do nothing?

Now imagine this point to be at ground level ahead of the rear tire. Hit the brakes. Does the suspension compress, extend, do nothing?

As I said this is an extremely simplistic model, and leaves out a lot of interactions, but think about it.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Why...*



shock said:


> Besides, if sales were that bad I'd be offering them to people for half price just to get them to try it.....


would you do that? When people would be happy to pay the full price, after all your hype had been proven. Which seems a better deal than giving them away to people (ring a bell). Maybe you cannot read so well, cause I have know idea were you got that concept from. Since I don't recall anyone asking for anything for half price. Maybe with you off hours time you can learn to read and actually absorb and comprehend what it is your reading.


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

red5 said:


> would you do that? When people would be happy to pay the full price, after all your hype had been proven........Maybe with you off hours time you can learn to read and actually absorb and comprehend what it is your reading.


 ok, this is getting a little personal, and i dont like the implication of the word hype (its just a tad slanderous). Especially when you yourself could be accused of hyping a certain product....or touch up the comprehension skills seeing how most of this thread was dedicated to explaining concepts to you.


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Your right...*



zedro said:


> Especially when you yourself could be accused of hyping a certain product...


and if someone wanted to buy said product I'm sure there would not be a problem selling it to them. But whatever...


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## shock (Aug 9, 2004)

*Well, actually I find reading and comprehending CAN be difficult*



red5 said:


> would you do that? When people would be happy to pay the full price, after all your hype had been proven. Which seems a better deal than giving them away to people (ring a bell). Maybe you cannot read so well, cause I have know idea were you got that concept from. Since I don't recall anyone asking for anything for half price. Maybe with you off hours time you can learn to read and actually absorb and comprehend what it is your reading.


Especially when discussing engineering concepts with not only varied engineers with many different backgrounds and experience levels, but also "laypersons" that may not be accustomed to some of the language, terms and concepts that engineers can take for granted.

As far as "hype", I actually did not start this thread, nor did I ressurect it. I tried to let it die the first time, but when new players start to comment and introduce new ideas/concepts on the subject, I do like to comment, after all, it involves a product I design and sell, so obviously it's a point of interest to me. Do these threads help business? Absolutely, and I think mainly by generally advancing paoples knowledge on the subject.

I'm I the one respopnsible for this advancement? I like to think I contribute, but obviously I'm biased. I think the contributions by other respected members and happy customers probably do a lot more than I do.

Is this an incorrect use of the forum? I don't think so, since most of the topics involve "is this better than that type subjects", but maybe I participate more as a manufacturer, I don't know. I'm sure the guys that run the forum would let me know if I'm crossing the line.

Btw, hopefully next week (if I can find enough off hours) I will be doing some "hyping" of some new (and not so new developments) that I think would be of interest. Do I hope they increase my business? of course.

But back to the engineering discussions, really, among the new post, I do have confusion about some of the comments and priciples that people are trying to introduce. I want everyone to try to use the same terminology and language so an objective discussion can ensue. That's a good thing. Clarification.

I have no interest in selling things because of "hype" or lack of understanding what is really happening. But physics can be a difficult subject, hence much of the confusion by myself and others on what has been posted so far. I'm asking for simplification of ideas and the presention thereof.

Ok, now I'm using my off hours to go play the blues, later


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

shock said:


> Do these threads help business? Absolutely, and I think mainly by generally advancing paoples knowledge on the subject.


I'd concur.



shock said:


> I like to think I contribute, but obviously I'm biased.


contribute? I'd say you do. Biased? That's questionable, I'd say more incline toward a certain opinion not biased



shock said:


> I'm sure the guys that run the forum would let me know if I'm crossing the line.[/shock]
> Bet on it.
> 
> 
> ...


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

shock said:


> Please clarify:
> 
> You said that the wheel, dropout and caliper are link 3, but the seatstay is link 4. In my terminology, those are actually the same piece, i.e. seatstay has dropout in it...
> 
> and again, where is the parralogram here!


I have to be honest, I am really not a suspension guy and I am just trying to learn (re-learn) a little. it has been nearly 15yrs since i have taken an 'engineering' look at a 4-bar linkage.  please bear with me Okay?

I realize now that most manufacturers build frames as you are describing with the DO, CS and caliper as one unit, but that is not what I was describing. my bad there. I think Zedro understood the linkage that I was trying to analyze (albeit unsuccessfully) and he was even kind enough to point out where I was making a few key mistakes.

I have to take a little more time, hit the books again and re-learn a bit. Although the application here seems a bit complicated, the mathematics and the theory are second year ME stuff....shows how much i learned that year.


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

shock said:


> How can the be parralel when they're connected by a pivot? (on an fsr type, not lawill)


see my other reply to you. i was oversimplifying and using a different linkage setup than the one being discussed here.....


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

chuffer said:


> Although the application here seems a bit complicated, the mathematics and the theory are second year ME stuff....shows how much i learned that year.


 bah, took me awhile to fully recognize the systems. Thats the real problem with these discussions, most of the people here are missing pieces of the picture (regardless of knowing about physics which alot do not anyways), which leads to a ton of misconceptions and bunk analysis...you know, garbage in garbage out. The people who do know the complete picture keep their cards close to themselves, giving tidbits but not overexplanations, or keeping things generic (no one likes to give their design parameters outright of course).

As far as these discussions go, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

hi zedro,

thanks for the informative and helpful answers, criticism and suggestions. i stated at the beginning that i am over my head, but it is really just a matter of finally applying something i learned once and never had the chance to apply. if you will bear with me a bit, i wont make any jokes about MEs and how much they 'know' about metals and materials, OK? 

Who wrote that race car suspension dynamics book? Milliken or something like that? What about some other vehicle/bicycle suspension related books? any suggestions anyone? Maybe I have gotta grab a couple from the SAE. Wonder if I can convince the boss that I need that for work? hmmm?



zedro said:


> you guys are fundamentally wrong on this one. first, the force vector acting at the ground is translated (as reaction forces) to the axle and caliper; once you do that only those reaction forces are required to calcuate the suspension effects (ie. segregate the individual systems involved).


This was quite clear to me. This is what I did when I was attempting to analyze the linkage in question.



zedro said:


> As for the parallel linkage (even in the universe where you neglected the COM of the decellerating frame among other things), there is no "neutral" point, the suspension will react, in this case to extend.


I am pretty sure I am not the only one who occaisionally visits that universe. Can you honestly say you have never been there? Even if only to start gaining some initial understanding of how some system unfamiliar to you works?



zedro said:


> this should of tipped you off since the force system is not resolved. Even having equal and opposite forces in this system will cause a moment translated to the frame, ie. the torque on link 3 (axle/brake) is transmitted to link 1 (the frame), your symetrical example system mearly simplified the calculation.
> 
> I think the fundamental error you guys are making is grouping the whole system into one FBD like its a rigid member (and ignoring certain components) when really each rigid member between pivots has its own system.


yeah you are right. I even wrote the force and moment balance equations down for link number one, but ignored it. 



zedro said:


> Not to mention the COM is completly ignored, although i'm guessing that was on purpose for the example.


Yes, you gotta start somewhere. I am also aware of, but have to admit I do not remember much about, concepts such as instant center and the proper calculation of percent anti-squat or squat. All of which need to take into account the COM of the rider bike system. I assume you were not talking about the COMs of the individual links, were you? Maybe the link with wheel... The COM of the whole system, however, is pandoras box itself since it is contantly shifting while we ride technical terrain.



zedro said:


> if you need an analogy, think of a crank and driver linked by rigid pushrods; when those pushrods become parallel to each other, the system isnt stalled


Although I get your point, I dont like that analogy too much, because you can stall that type of linkage. Ever seen diesel suck air in through the exhaust and blow exhaust out through the intake? That's the result of stalling that type of linkage.

Again, thanks guys. I'll go stand in front of the white board and learn something this morning instead of checking up on the Pete threads.


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

chuffer said:


> I am pretty sure I am not the only one who occaisionally visits that universe. Can you honestly say you have never been there? Even if only to start gaining some initial understanding of how some system unfamiliar to you works?


 yeah i'm guilty of going there too. Was just mentioning because it gets ignored for too long in these discussions

i would never hand calculate all the COMs involved, thats just madness (hell i flunked my theory of machines exam because the teacher went insane with the number of clacs involved). Fortunatly theres software that does that now, but really i doubt the importance unless were talking about really high frequencies that these things will never see.

and please just promise me you wont fall into Steve from JH's insane infatuation with analysing everything purely based on drawing ICs and vectors everywhere and supplanting it with anecdotal evidence


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## BJ- (Jan 28, 2004)

zedro said:


> bah, took me awhile to fully recognize the systems. Thats the real problem with these discussions, most of the people here are missing pieces of the picture (regardless of knowing about physics which alot do not anyways), which leads to a ton of misconceptions and bunk analysis...you know, garbage in garbage out. The people who do know the complete picture keep their cards close to themselves, giving tidbits but not overexplanations, or keeping things generic (no one likes to give their design parameters outright of course).
> 
> As far as these discussions go, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


the MTBR community are all a bunch of b!tchy little school girls that ride bikes...and thats the only problem here...

(zedro your one of the worst...everyone look at me im little miss i need to allwyas be right...a bit like lisa simpson...theres a reason the little brainiac has no friends)



red5 said:


> People, let it go already. Jeez.


and i agree with this statement...


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## chuffer (Apr 15, 2004)

BJ- said:


> the MTBR community are all a bunch of b!tchy little school girls that ride bikes...and thats the only problem here...
> 
> (zedro your one of the worst...everyone look at me im little miss i need to allwyas be right...a bit like lisa simpson...theres a reason the little brainiac has no friends)
> 
> and i agree with this statement...


yeah, the simpsons televsion show is a good basis for your outlook on life.  dumbasses generally havent got many friends either

actually, maybe you missed it, but there is quite a bit of info in this post. you simply have to get passed certain peoples biases and recognize the difference between facts, opinions and flat-out fallacies. i am personally responsible for a couple of the latter, unfortunately, but i am working on it. 

I have learned a lot from this post. I also intend to bring it back from the dead again once I have spent a little more time at the whiteboard. fair warning.


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## BJ- (Jan 28, 2004)

chuffer said:


> yeah, the simpsons televsion show is a good basis for your outlook on life. dumbasses generally havent got many friends either
> 
> actually, maybe you missed it, but there is quite a bit of info in this post. you simply have to get passed certain peoples biases and recognize the difference between facts, opinions and flat-out fallacies. i am personally responsible for a couple of the latter, unfortunately, but i am working on it.
> 
> I have learned a lot from this post. I also intend to bring it back from the dead again once I have spent a little more time at the whiteboard. fair warning.


i like it how u hid the dubass part...

very cleaver...if anything im impressed...yet i unforunatly have only learnt one thing from this post...and that is that your arrogant enough to "hide" stupid "dumbass" remarks and not think id see them...

*next time save us all the trouble and put it in bold...*


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

*In his prime...*

Muhammed Ali was WAY better than anti-lock brakes.


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## Steve from JH (Dec 30, 2003)

zedro said:


> and please just promise me you wont fall into Steve from JH's insane infatuation with analysing everything purely based on drawing ICs and vectors everywhere and supplanting it with anecdotal evidence


*Insane infatuation!* I think I'll report that to the moderator.

It seems the guys who write the textbooks are insanely infatuated too. See Milliken's RACE CAR VEHICLE DYNAMICS, chapter 17 or Cocco's MOTORCYCLE DESIGN AND TECHNOLOGY, page 79. All they do is locate the instant center and draw some vectors.

If you accept what they are saying as the basic fundamental analysis, it doesn't require an advanced degree to conclude the following: the suspension would be affected the same by the ground force if the wheel were locked at the axle; the amount of brake torque can not be calculated without taking into account the ground line.

As to how the wheel can act like it is locked to the link, even though it is separated by an axle and bearings, well, I know the answer, but I think it would be best to play it close to the vest and not reveal everything.

As for "supplanting [the analysis] with anecdotal evidence", did you mean "supplementing"? In any case I didn't provide any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise.

I never forget to take into account the CM reaction. If the suspension is neutral, as that term is used by the experts, there will indeed be extension of the rear shock as the frame is rotated forward by the force couple created between the ground force and the inertia of the CM. The situation where there is no extension is normally called 100% anti-lift, but if you want to call that neutral instead, it's okay; it's just terminology.

P.S. The discussion in Ken Sasaki's Path Analysis, mentioned above, where he rejects most of the claims of the advantages of floating brakes, is just his side of a long argument he had with me on MBTR quite a while ago. I tried to take the side of the Brake Therapy guy. In my opinion KS lost the argument.


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

Steve from JH said:


> ...........the amount of brake torque can not be calculated without taking into account the ground line.
> 
> ......
> 
> P.S. The discussion in Ken Sasaki's Path Analysis, mentioned above, where he rejects most of the claims of the advantages of floating brakes, is just his side of a long argument he had with me on MBTR quite a while ago. I tried to take the side of the Brake Therapy guy. In my opinion KS lost the argument.


 oh definitly agree, the forces need to come from somewhere, was just saying it can be converted to other parts of the system for the sake of analysis, like anything else.

and lets not even bring up Sasaki's stuff, he misses so many fundamental points its unreal he filled up a thesis.

and was just taking a friendlyjab, the IC stuff makes makes me quiver when people start abusing the principals


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## zedro (Jan 12, 2004)

BJ- said:


> the MTBR community are all a bunch of b!tchy little school girls that ride bikes...and thats the only problem here...
> 
> (zedro your one of the worst...everyone look at me im little miss i need to allwyas be right...a bit like lisa simpson...theres a reason the little brainiac has no friends)


 so let me get this straight, you have nothing to say on this topic in the first place because you dont know anything, yet you feel compelled to insult the people that do have some knowledge and convey their thoughts, and you want this thread to die because why? theres no room to fill it with your own brand of BS?

its true, most teens dont like people with brains, its threatens their already troubled self-esteem, thats why i had to stop using all those "big-words" i learnt reading MAD magazine and not being totally brain-dead. But one day when you grow up, people appreciate those that can think for themselves, and universally hate generic dumb-ass teenagers, such as yourself....


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## derby (Jan 12, 2004)

*Hey Zedro, Dougal, Steve, and anyone interested in this thread*

Please go to my new post in Shocks (where we used to scream and name-call at each other about this stuff 

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?postid=497257#poststop

Seriously I'd like some perspective from your biases to tilt my bias to be more of a "neutral" bias.

I think these mental exercises are fun. I've learned a lot from you guys over the years. I'm mostly trying to reword for myself (and others) to confirm consistent theories.

As always the ride is what matters. And riders have a personal feel of what works better for their own uses.

- ray


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## RED5 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Owned!!*



zedro said:


> so let me get this straight, you have nothing to say on this topic in the first place because you dont know anything, yet you feel compelled to insult the people that do have some knowledge and convey their thoughts, and you want this thread to die because why? theres no room to fill it with your own brand of BS?
> 
> its true, most teens dont like people with brains, its threatens their already troubled self-esteem, thats why i had to stop using all those "big-words" i learnt reading MAD magazine and not being totally brain-dead. But one day when you grow up, people appreciate those that can think for themselves, and universally hate generic dumb-ass teenagers, such as yourself....


[email protected] BJ, you just got owned!!!  Of course you did deserve it, sorry.


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