# Nino's new Titanium Cassettes: 11-32 / 11-34



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

i finally got my new prototypes today. here's some pictures on my scale:

11-32 : 180g
11-32 including aluminium lockring: 184g

11-34 : 194g
11-34 including aluminium lockring: 198g


a sidenote: the 11t cog is still steel. also the spacers are aluminium so there's still a couple of grams left to tune....i personally don't like the all golden look. i might go back to a more neutral look maybe with just a coloured spider.

the cassettes look awesome and i can't wait to test-ride them for real. but right now we have extreme showers all over. it might take a couple of days before i get to test them.

i plan to have 11-28 and 11-30 as well. first these have to be ridden though...


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

WOW, that's nice. So this is your design? Any word on what the cost will be?


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## Harry_1982 (Aug 10, 2006)

How about individual cogs??? Last time I've heard/saw these they where all individual cogs- meaning they could be easily adapted to 8 speed.... Now there is no chance ;/ Or is it? 

One question- they are all Ti or just Ti coated- looks like that (or this is the coat that makes them more resistant…?).

Warm regards,

Harry


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## nebula8080 (Mar 18, 2007)

droooooollll


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## faga steam (Jun 5, 2007)

Nino do they only come in gold ?

Thanks


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## bdc88 (Sep 27, 2005)

Nino - I really like the look of the cassettes. I would like to know what final price would be but I should PM you on that. Thanks for sharing.

Side note - How long will it be before chequamagon comes on here *crying like a baby* that Nino has posted something.


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## G-Live (Jan 14, 2004)

Nino,
Love the gold color. Don't change it. Weights look awesome. Hope that you can get into production and they sell well for you.

G


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*colour...*



faga steam said:


> Nino do they only come in gold ?
> 
> Thanks


did you read my initial post? i said i will go back to natural titanium colour. maybe a coloured spider but most probably not even that.


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Are the spiders also Ti or alloy?


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## womble (Sep 8, 2006)

Very cool. Definitely go back to a straight Ti finish- much more classily understated


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## faga steam (Jun 5, 2007)

nino said:


> did you read my initial post? i said i will go back to natural titanium colour. maybe a coloured spider but most probably not even that.


You said that you "might" so I just wanted to make sure


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*spiders...*



rockyuphill said:


> Are the spiders also Ti or alloy?


spiders are aluminium. titanium would be twice the weight!!


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

8 Speed 11-28?


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## chucko58 (Aug 4, 2006)

Is the gold look due to nitriding? If so, leave it!


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## Onie (Sep 15, 2005)

Nice color! Gold!  Classic! Now, the question... How much would these eye candies cost? Hmmmm...


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## gratiflying (Sep 21, 2006)

yeah, i'd buy one as well.

the m970 design appears similar except they use 3 alloy spiders carrying 2 cogs each (4 ti and 2 steel) then 3 more individual steel cogs with integrated (presumably steel) spacers... i guess nino's design saves 40g over shimano (224g vs 184g) via:

- 8 ti cogs vs. only 4 on the m970;
- alloy spacers for the smaller cogs vs. steel;
- seemingly a more minimalist/efficient alloy spider than shimano;

good job, hopefully the carriers stand up... no doubt the cogs will... hopefully shifting is as good as shimano... don't worry about the colour... however IMO natural ti is too beautiful to coated, it should be seen!


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## Ninko (Jul 19, 2006)

Man that's great, Looks awesome. Is this the same cassette as on the site of http://leichtkraft.com/ ? I like the spiders, now it's possible to run on aluminium freehubs!
Great work!


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## Strong Ti (Jun 1, 2005)

*Looks great!*

If you decide to produce them, I'll order a couple of them


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## miketech1 (Jun 20, 2006)

Nino, 
Please update us as to the performance of shifting. Not too much into what it looks like just care about shifting performance. Better than xtr I hope. If so I will take two.


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## Cyco-Dude (Feb 12, 2004)

ha, reminds me of the sunrace juju mz cassette, albeit nicer (and 100g lighter).


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

Weeno, stop stalling and produce.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*1st test...*

i just mounted the cassette today and went for a short ride. the shifting is perfect also under load ! durability has to be seen. i need to do some more intense riding but so far i am very impressed. i'd say things look real good...


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## Ninko (Jul 19, 2006)

nino said:


> i'd say things look real good...


You should say, Things look real Gold...
Awesome cassette, let us know when we can afford this light weight beauty. But it's a different one then leichtkraft.de it looks a bit the same


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## elephant (Mar 21, 2006)

Hey Nino,

What shifter, der and chain are using?

Thanks,

elephant


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*details...*



elephant said:


> Hey Nino,
> 
> What shifter, der and chain are using?
> 
> ...


on the shown "winterbike":
SRAM Plasma shifters
xtr derailleur
KMC X10 SL chain

on my Scale:
SRAM Plasma shifters
Dura Ace 10s derailleur
KMC X10 SL chain


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## Monticone (Nov 30, 2004)

*[ot?] Road cassette?*

Nino, no Ti road cassette is in project?


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## Ryderman (Jul 24, 2007)

Hi Nino!! Looks great, have you planned more or less how many time we have to wait to get the 11-28 cassette, I'm really interested tu get it, of course I'd like a road one 12-25, but it can wait.


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## Harry_1982 (Aug 10, 2006)

Nino when You'll give us some more news? 
What about individual cogs for All those who choose 8 gears?
Questions, Questions, Questions

Warm regards,

Harry


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Ironic how someone bumps one of nino's non-paid-for spam threads for something he sells today.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*you can't buy it!*



DeeEight said:


> Ironic how someone bumps one of nino's non-paid-for spam threads for something he sells today.


well - please tell me for what i should get a classified ad?? these cassettes still aren't made 
this is the WW board and these are some interesting parts for most guys reading in here.

and while you are up with this thread once again i jump onto the occasion to tell you that there might be an upgrade version as well which should be another 8g lighter! as seen in the picture below my PROTOTYPE 11-32 weighs just 172g with my upgrades.

so do i have to pay just to tell about an interesting item that isn't on the market???


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

You're portraying yourself as a manufacturer, in threads where the signature line for all your posts is "I sell lightweight parts". This is against the forum rules and hell even mods have told you that. If you wanna be a manufacturer pitching their latest wares in development, you have to be a forum sponsor or a paid advertiser.


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## bdc88 (Sep 27, 2005)

Deleted.

Rather than be a part of the problem I would rather be a part of a solution.

Solution. If you do not like Nino's post, do not read them. Easy solution.


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

Ditto.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

bdc88 said:


> How about everyone that is upset about Nino, email the moderators and let them do their job. Otherwise shut the hell up and stop your whinning. If Nino is posting and is still allowed to do so then so be it. The moderators will do their job when they see fit. If you do not like what Nino is doing in a post, do not read it and move on. You guys are worse than my 18 month old son when he can not have a cookie and whine a hell of a lot more.


If the whining bothers you so much, leave.



> Other than whinning what the hell do you whinners contribute to this site. Nino is being bad, Nino is not following the rules, Nino is this and that. Bloody Hell.


If you haven't figured it out yourself, you're either new around here or your nose has a brown smear up the center that smells oddly swiss.



> At least Nino is putting out some nice information about new and exciting product and personally if he is selling them or not, I like the information that he posts on the site with picutres, weights, comparisons and some damn good information that I have never seen from any of the whinners.


You mean when he's not putting down the components of competing products/brands which he doesn't sell, with information he can't actually back up as real facts, just to make his own products he's shilling look and sound better than they actually are??!


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## bdc88 (Sep 27, 2005)

Edit: See above!


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## Soya (Jun 22, 2007)

With you complaining as much about the whining, you would think to at least learn to spell it correctly.


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## bdc88 (Sep 27, 2005)

Edit. See above.


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## gray bishop (Sep 16, 2006)

anyway.................................
hey Nino great cassette, good thread, thanks for letting some of us know there's folks out there that make stuff besides the big companies some of our bikeshops swear are the only way to go


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## wheelhot (Jan 6, 2006)

what is this SRAM Plasma shifters?


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## ginsu2k (Jul 28, 2006)

i like nino's parts, he's the only guy with good pics of new stuff!


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

wheelhot said:


> what is this SRAM Plasma shifters?


Grip Shift for Shimano rear derailleur.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Designed by Sachs, acquired when sram took over sachs. The Plasma and Quartz shifters worked far better and more reliably, while also being lighter than the SRAM designed grip shifters.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*Plasma shifters...*



wheelhot said:


> what is this SRAM Plasma shifters?


back to bikes - thanks!

as D8 already explained correctly these are some shifters originally designed by Sachs.
the Plasma are the lightest ones that also perform great: 153g

there's the even older Sachs Quartz which weigh just about 120g BUT they are really,really feeling like cheapo kids-bikes shifters. all plastic. no good. i used them once when i did my ultralight project as well but since then they are collecting dust in a box somewhere.

todays lightest shifters are the SRAM Attacks which are about 165g (shown with nner wires)


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## wheelhot (Jan 6, 2006)

wow, too bad now im a Shimano Shadow Fan


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*no problem...*



wheelhot said:


> wow, too bad now im a Shimano Shadow Fan


these shifters are ALL shimano compatible. or did i miss something about the shadows having a different cable-pull? i don't think so.


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## wheelhot (Jan 6, 2006)

> these shifters are ALL shimano compatible. or did i miss something about the shadows having a different cable-pull? i don't think so.


I heard a rider having problem getting his shadow RD to work with his current shifter, odd. Oh thats compatible with Shimano, I thought its for Sachs derailleur only


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

I've never had problems with the Sachs powergrip extreme shifters or the quartz ones (which were actually identical to the plasma's other than the colour, the quartz group was above the plasma one). The sachs derailleurs were shimano compatible and a lot more durable composites than the then SRAM models (another thing they got in the buyout was instant access to the better composite materials). The Quartz/Plasma rear derailleurs were in the 190-200g range for long cage derailleurs with 40T total capacity and maximum 32T cog sizes.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*not the same*



DeeEight said:


> I've never had problems with the Sachs powergrip extreme shifters or the quartz ones (which were actually identical to the plasma's other than the colour, the quartz group was above the plasma one). The sachs derailleurs were shimano compatible and a lot more durable composites than the then SRAM models (another thing they got in the buyout was instant access to the better composite materials). The Quartz/Plasma rear derailleurs were in the 190-200g range for long cage derailleurs with 40T total capacity and maximum 32T cog sizes.


the Plasma and Quartz are definitely not the same and they feel completely different too. the Quartz has that all plastic feel you can find on many kids bikes. loud and unprecise and just not what you want for a crisp shifting drivetrain. the only positive things i have to say about it: it is light and it shifts.

the Plasma is just that much better. it's still plastic but has a solid feel and precise, smooth shifting.

i am a hardcore weight weenie but as mentioned already the Quartz-shifters are sitting in a box collecting dust after just a couple of miles being used...


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## Batas (Jan 16, 2004)

nino said:


> back to bikes - thanks!
> 
> as D8 already explained correctly these are some shifters originally designed by Sachs.
> the Plasma are the lightest ones that also perform great: 153g
> ...


 Hey Nino, did you find it hard to go from Rapid Fire to Grip Shift? Those attacks are mmm... 246-166=80gr lighter than my XT Shifters...


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Batas said:


> Hey Nino, did you find it hard to go from Rapid Fire to Grip Shift? Those attacks are mmm... 246-166=80gr lighter than my XT Shifters...


I found it VERY easy and will probably never go back!


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

Can you shift and brake at the same time?

Lately when slowing from a pretty good speed to hit a rough ravine I've had to downshift and brake heavily at the same time.


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## Batas (Jan 16, 2004)

DIRT BOY said:


> I found it VERY easy and will probably never go back!


 Thank DB. Which ones are you using? (Grip Shift)


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

I still use my quartz shifters and they work great, way better than anything sram offered at the time and don't listen to nino as if he's not gonna be making a buck from it, he doesn't tend to like it.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*well...*



DeeEight said:


> I still use my quartz shifters and they work great, way better than anything sram offered at the time and don't listen to nino as if he's not gonna be making a buck from it, he doesn't tend to like it.


once again it seems you can't read my posts:

i already told i didn't like the Quartz and there is no doubt they suck. if you accept the plastic-like shifting so be it. i don't !

i never sold any grip-shifters. you have to look for them on Ebay. this has nothing to do with making money but rather with getting good advice and saving people from spending money in parts that belong on kids bikes, not on bikes that get ridden for real.

@Batas:
i was always strictly against using grip-shifters in the past but i have to say that i accutomes to them very easily. i still like my old XT STIs ( i still have a set on my winterbike) but the Plasmas are 80g lighter and work flawless.


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## AggieXCRacer (Oct 10, 2005)

Edit: Nevermind...didn't realize this was an old thread back from the dead...


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

I agree with Nino on the Quartz. Years ago, I swapped my 8-speed XT pods for 8-speed Quartz in order to save weight. Even on a new, clean bike the Quartz shifting effort was high and the action felt like breaking plastic.

I upgraded to SRAM 9.0SL shifters and rear mech, and they performed and felt much better. In fact, the shifters are working great 8 years later, even with worn out rear mech.

In case you want to try for yourself, here is a nice set of the last generation Quartz 9-speed. Perhaps they were improved vs. the 8-speed units I tried:
http://cgi.ebay.com/SRAM-GRIP-SHIFT...ryZ42330QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## DIRT BOY (Aug 22, 2002)

Batas said:


> Thank DB. Which ones are you using? (Grip Shift)


2006 X.0 GS


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*forget it!*



EuroMack said:


> Perhaps they were improved vs. the 8-speed units I tried:


no - that's the ones i have and they feel like crap!


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## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

nino said:


> As seen in the picture below my PROTOTYPE 11-32 weighs just 172g with my upgrades.


And when can we buy these? I'm in the market for a 11-32 asap.

Ole.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*soon...*



Ole said:


> And when can we buy these? I'm in the market for a 11-32 asap.
> 
> Ole.


i'll make sure to get a classified add when before posting them so all those whiners are happy....i expect them in about 2 weeks.


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## f3rg (Aug 29, 2007)

Beautiful gears, man! I'd love to see them (preferably on my own bike) with a gold KMC chain. If you're looking for test riders, where do I apply?


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## fonseca (Jan 12, 2004)

EuroMack said:


> I upgraded to SRAM 9.0SL shifters and rear mech, and they performed and felt much better. In fact, the shifters are working great 8 years later, even with worn out rear mech.


Same here. I had 8 speed Quartz shifters, and they were truly terrible. The shifting effort got to be near-impossible, and they were the reason I went to Sram 9.0sl shifters. Seven years later I still use those 9.0sl shifters on a regular basis. Just put two hours in on them today in fact. I've gone through two pairs of grips, and a few indicator housings, but otherwise they perform as new.

I'm no longer a weight weenie, but I am definitely interested to see this cassette in final form. I like the idea of multiple carriers for the larger cogs.


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

congrats if thats your own project! It looks very good in gold!

Give all the material specs.


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## ka0t1c07 (Aug 3, 2005)

I love my sram xo grip shifters. Easy to know what gears your in. Very precise and no ghost shifting problems.

Tin


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## bobbyOCR (Feb 11, 2007)

I also love my twist shifts. I hate the light action release lever on their triggers.


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## protocol_droid (Jul 7, 2004)

Update?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*soon...*



protocol_droid said:


> Update?


i'm expecting them soon...and i definitely will post pictures once they arrive AFTER placing a classifieds ad


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## rensho (Mar 8, 2004)

nino said:


> i'm expecting them soon...and i definitely will post pictures once they arrive AFTER placing a classifieds ad


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

DeeEight said:


> and don't listen to nino as if he's not gonna be making a buck from it, he doesn't tend to like it.


Are you usually this much of a curmudgeon? (you're really good at it)


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## raceer2 (Jul 21, 2007)

Am I missing something? 

This is waaaay heavier than the new token cassette at 150g



nino said:


> i finally got my new prototypes today. here's some pictures on my scale:
> 
> 11-32 : 180g
> 11-32 including aluminium lockring: 184g
> ...


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

raceer2 said:


> Am I missing something?


Yes.

Ti is heavier and lasts longer than aluminum. Nino's cassette is ti. Token is aluminum.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Oh but that's useless info right ?


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## AC/BC (Jun 22, 2006)

Curious about the shift quality yours. I bought an XTR a while back and it was horrid. I love the lightness but wont sactrifice it for shift quality


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## raceer2 (Jul 21, 2007)

EuroMack said:


> Yes.
> 
> Ti is heavier and lasts longer than aluminum. Nino's cassette is ti. Token is aluminum.


Don't want to start a war with this is better than that...however I thought this was a weight (or lack thereof) forum.

Therefore if I am looking for a cassette in this instance based on weight, then I will want the lighter one (within) reason....shift quality, etc. In my case longevity (again within reason) is not really an issue. If this was the case, I would get an xt drivetrain and stay with it.

Back to the issue of the cassette. Can anyone comment on the token ?

Now, my understanding is that the token has some sort of a ceramic coating.


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## raceer2 (Jul 21, 2007)

DeeEight said:


> Oh but that's useless info right ?


Come on D8, there must be a message in there...we are just not smart enough to see it


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

Well token just came out with a 11-32, 11-34, and 12-xx (forget what) in a 9 speed tri metal that is purty light. Sounds like that's what you want but I cannot comment on how it performs. 

I might consider one for next season. Could be a pita as it starts to wear out though.

I just invested in a 30 and 34 ti action-tec cogs for my two wheelsets to use with my DA cassettes.


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## raceer2 (Jul 21, 2007)

*thanks*

sloberdoggy, thanks for info.

pic of the cassette .... ride report in a wk or so I guess.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

raceer2 said:


> Am I missing something?
> 
> This is waaaay heavier than the new token cassette at 150g


i don't care about aluminium cassettes at all ! those "Token" are similar or the same than the KCNC and are out of aluminium regardless of what aluminium they use...it will still wear waaaay faster than titanium! only the 2 smallest cogs are Ti. i have the KCNC here in all sizes. i know what they weigh and i know what they are going to be able to do on the trails as well

if you want the lightest cassette then the only way besides full-carbon cogs which is the most useless anyway is the one i used to sell. with two Ti-cogs it weighs 135g. this is waaaaay lighter than the Token yet it is still no option for all those looking for serious DURABILITY! mine got a special hard-coating which really helped in the durability BUT it makes the cassette too expensive. this was not just some anodization but really some hi-tech stuff and really,really expensive. but the cassette indeed had better durability but still not what you would expect from a expensive product like it is. it also has 2 small titanium cogs so durability is sure the same if not better than the KCNC as well as beeing lighter...

but i have no intention to make the lightest possible cassette when it wears out in no time .that's really wasted money.aluminium cassettes on a MTB wear just too fast. Titanium is the way to go if you are actually riding your bike. for those who need a cassette just for the show i still have some of those light cassettes available but i can't honestly suggest them to anyone who looks to actually put some real mileage on them. i'd say don't expect to do more than 1000km with such aluminium cassettes.

pictured below:
Ninos 11-32 aluminium cassette: 135g
KCNC 11-32: 151g
KCNC 11-34: 177g


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## pastajet (May 26, 2006)

I thought one of the benefits of the KCNC was that you could replace the 4 cog aluminum piece when it wore out?


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## rensho (Mar 8, 2004)

Can't believe folks would run an aluminum 9sp cassette, unless just for hanging on the scale purposes.

Maybe as a race only wheelset.

I see 5x or more out of my Ti cogs rather than alu on my SS bike. These are 2x as thick as what is on a 9sp cassette.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*forget it...*



pastajet said:


> I thought one of the benefits of the KCNC was that you could replace the 4 cog aluminum piece when it wore out?


i'm using aluminium cassettes on my bikes since about 8 years so i really have some experience using them. they do fine on roadbikes where you haven't such power-extremes and where usually much gentlier shifting takes place. i am using aluminium cassettes all the time, throughout the year on my roadbike and never had any failures. they wear faster but they do about 3000-3500km before they start making rattling sounds from the worn teeth. this is good enough for my needs and won't kill my budget as well. after that they are still working fine, still no misshifts. i replace them after about this mileage because soon after that they might start to jump over teeth when hammering out of the saddle. when applying real power. so i put a new cassette and new chain and i'm ready again. that's 3000km on swiss roads in dry weather only. i don't ride my roadbike in the rain at all so perfect conditions for a drivetrain. the chain gets cleaned and lubed after every ride as well...perfect conditions......BUT on a MTB with dust, sand, mud and water and with shifting sometimes under hard load the durability of aluminium cassettes suffers big time and is just not good enough. regardless of the coating, the material underneath is soft and will eventually get compressed by the torque you apply.the teeth will wear out and the chain and drivetrain will have excessive wear as well.

just believe me:
if you need to replace gears you need to replace ALL of them right away! the aluminium cogs will have excessive wear. the smaller sprockets first since the smaller the cog the higher the wear on each teeth. so the middle of the cogs most likely needs to be replaced first as this is also where the most riding takes place. BUT what happens if you have mixed cogs from brandnew to well used?? correct - shifting will be all over the place  i'm sure all of you have experienced what happens if you throw a brandnew cassette on a used drivetrain, right? shifting might be catastrophic as a worn chain will shift up and down where it wants. and i'm sure everyone out there knows what happens to your drivetrain if you have a worn cassette: the chain and also the chainrings will wear faster because of this. now if you throw in some new cogs they will wear much faster with the used chain...

by the way: did you ever change individual parts on your XTR or XT cassette as well? because you can also get individual cogs for them....i think we all know that this is a bad idea and can make for bad shifting.

by the way: such aluminium replacement cogs are hard to get and cost really much money on top as well. just forget such toys if you plan to really ride your bike - it's as easy as that.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*they're here !!*

i finally got them today - they're SUPERSWEET !

i will first have to make a nice classifieds ad before some guys start complaining again....see you later with more details and pictures here

but first my son has to get asleep before i can go down to the basement to take pics.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*Here They Are - Details + Pics !!!*

as mentioned above i finally got my titanium cassettes. i am impressed to say the least but take a closer look yourself....

there's actually 2 versions available:

1: the "standard" cassette comes with golden coloured aluminium spacers and steel 11t cog

2: the SL (superlight) version comes with black coloured plastic spacers and titanium 11t cog

here's the detailed weights:

11-30: 166g (170g including aluminium lockring)
11-30 SL: 157g (161g including aluminium lockring)

11-32: 179g (184g including aluminium lockring)
11-32 SL: 170g (174g including aluminium lockring)

11-34: 192g (196g including aluminium lockring)
11-34 SL: 183g (187g including aluminium lockring)

i also have individual titanium cogs and plastic spacers (spare parts or for those who want to upgrade their current cassette):
11 final titanium: 4,5g (XTR 10,2g)
12 titanium: 6,0g (XTR 12,3g)
13 titanium: 6,8g
14 titanium: 7,2g (XTR 13,6g)
15 titanium: 9,2g
16 titanium: 12,2g
17 titanium: 11.7g
18 titanium: 15,2g

and here's the classifieds ad:
http://classifieds.mtbr.com/showproduct.php?product=13437


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

I hope you didn't copy shimano's HG ramps... they have international patents on those and they DO sue people for violating it.


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## bdc88 (Sep 27, 2005)

Here we go again. :smallviolin:

Nino, I am sure that DeeEight :cryin: has already sent Shimano an email telling them to look at your design and probably supplied them with the pictures you just posted.

I will take a look in the classifieds for pricing. I like the 11/30 version. 

Cheers.


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## f3rg (Aug 29, 2007)

Man, I wish I had an extra $265 to spend on my new bike.


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

Everybody can keep using there Dura-Ace they just need to get an Action-Tec cog - much cheaper.

Check out my maxy gear. Had to use a lot of it on a section of the Miwok (Mee-walk?)Trail.


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

mountainforce said:


> That looks ridiculous! How on earth do you shift into it without any ramps etc?


Shifts fine  Haven't you see the tourist bikes at the shops lately? The der slots over and feeds the chain onto the 34 with no problem.


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## AJSB (Nov 16, 2007)

Nino, 2 questions...

How much miles can we expect from your std and SL K7s ?
What lube you recommend, in special if they face occasional wet/muddy conditions ?

TIA,
AJSB


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## mpap89 (Mar 10, 2005)

it seems like those individual cogs will reek havoc on your freehub body.


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

HG Ramps at best provide a 1-2% speed increase in shifts and only from smaller to larger, but shimano has always been about small incremental improvements in their products. They've rarely ever made changes that brought big increases at once. But part of the improvement is the total brainwashing of consumers to believe that you HAVE to have ramps on your cogs to shift them. That being said though, Shimano still defends their patented ramp profile and has gone after companies for violating them, which is why Real Designs, Suntour and SRAM and Sunrace all had different ramp profiles, and why SRP and Tioga just licensed the shimano patented ones for their cogs. Meanwhile ActionTec simply avoided the ramps altogether. And Nino's cogs have very HG looking ramps.


----------



## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

Slobberdoggy said:


> Shifts fine  Haven't you see the tourist bikes at the shops lately? The der slots over and feeds the chain onto the 34 with no problem.


Slob,

I hate to clutter Nino's thread, but can you post a bill of material for your cassette? I wonder is you have 10-speed cassette or 9-speed DA. 12-25? Which spacers and where? Any special tricks?


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

ActionTec's cassettes are decidedly cheaper...

http://www.actiontec.us/prices.htm

They also offer individual cogs up to a 40T size.


----------



## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

EuroMack said:


> Slob,
> 
> I hate to clutter Nino's thread, but can you post a bill of material for your cassette? I wonder is you have 10-speed cassette or 9-speed DA. 12-25? Which spacers and where? Any special tricks?


It's a 9 speed Dura Ace 12-27 using all the stock DA spacers. I simply removed one of the smaller individual cogs on the DA. D8's presented the price list at Action-Tecs site. So I've added a AT cog and removed one DA cog to a 12-27 DA cassette 

I knew I would get a much larger looking cog visually but then I've been seeing all these entry level commuter bikes with one giant cog on the cassette too.

Nino's cassettes sure look nice - especially for their weight!


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

So which cog did you take out ?


----------



## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

DeeEight said:


> So which cog did you take out ?


Ugh . . . looks like I took out the 14t cog.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*a sidenote...*



DeeEight said:


> ActionTec's cassettes are decidedly cheaper...
> 
> They also offer individual cogs up to a 40T size.


1. MTB cassettes with individual cogs are usually heavier

2.cassettes with individual cogs are weaker by design. Titanium is "soft" and especially larger sprockets will have excessive flex under load if they are not thicker....thicker means added weight again. Tune for example does not offer their Ti-cassette "Rasselbande" with sprockets larger than 28t because of the flex that comes along using larger sheets of titanium.

3. all individual cogs will ruin your freehub body.especially the larger sprockets where you do all the climbing and apply much torque...that's why shimano invented the spiders: lighter-stiffer-better load distribution. but also shimano has the lower sprockets seperate.

4.the manufacturing of cassettes with spiders costs more than just making cogs out of Titanium Sheet. My first generation cassettes also had individual cog design but i wasn't happy with them... it's as easy as that. i just wonder why we don't see any Action-Tec cassettes around if they are that light and good performing...???

5. who needs individual cogs up to 40t ?


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*i don't understand...*



Slobberdoggy said:


> Ugh . . . looks like I took out the 14t cog.


what's the benefit of using road cassettes on a MTB?

correct- besides saving weight they have closely spaced gears which allow you to fine-tune your cadence. a 12-27 DA weighs 180g.

by taking out a cog in the middle and adding a huge granny you not only made the DA cassette heavier but completely ruined the gearing and most probably hurt the shifting as well since the aligned shifting ramps don't correspond with each other anymore. ever wondered why do you see such huge granny rings on Huffy bikes only??? c'mon, this is a gearing that definitely does not belong on such a bike.


----------



## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

nino said:


> what's the benefit of using road cassettes on a MTB?
> 
> correct- besides saving weight they have closely spaced gears which allow you to fine-tune your cadence. a 12-27 DA weighs 180g.
> 
> by taking out a cog in the middle and adding a huge granny you not only made the DA cassette heavier but completely ruined the gearing and most probably hurt the shifting as well since the aligned shifting ramps don't correspond with each other anymore. ever wondered why do you see such huge granny rings on Huffy bikes only??? c'mon, this is a gearing that definitely does not belong on such a bike.


You may not have regarded my earlier post. I was just pointing out for those of us with a DA cassette you can just buy an individual heat treated 34 or 32 ti cog for a lot less than these "soft" ti (as you put it) cassettes.

Road cassettes are nice in regions that are flat - nino used to use one exclusively a few years if I recall correctly. Otherwise the mtb cassettes with wider gearing is much better especially i've found for hilly race conditions where you have to pop up several gears with a DA cassette because of steep but brief downhill sections.

I've seen a big gear on many brands of bikes with shimano cassettes. My 34t is my get out jail free card. I also have a ti freewheel body so I'm hoping it won't dig into it like an aluminum version.

Ciao for now


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

1. Usually but not always.

2. Saying that titanium is "soft" is just you trying to make excuses as usual and trying to put down the competition. The material is still stiffer than aluminium and Action-Tec's cogs have never been accused of being flexy and oh, they've only got FIFTEEN years of proven performance behind them. As to surface hardness, there's a reason action tec offers their cogsets in a heat-treated version also (which still is cheaper than your cassettes). Heat-treating the titanium increases the strength and the hardness.

3. Individual cogs will ruin an aluminium freehub body maybe but less so a titanium freehub body and not at all on a steel one. Shimano didn't adopt the spider carriers for the cogs for stiffness or durability of freehub bodies. They did it to save weight.

4. I've seen plenty of Action Tec cassettes around myself, and the fact that we JUST saw one of their cogs being used in this thread proves that people on here know about them and use them for their own applications. Its also proof that their decision to sell individual cogs is a wise one as some have specific needs.

5. People who want lower gearing? People who want their drivetrain to last a long time? They only added the 36 to 40T sizes in the past couple years to the catalog so there's obviously been a... oh wait... they also do 29er stuff now... and there's the answer. 29er owners who want equivalent low gearing to their 26ers... which cannot be achieved when the maximum size anyone else offers is a 34T cog. See that took me 20 seconds of thinking to figure out. What's your excuse?

Also from ActionTec's main page...

_Have you seen our new heatreated titanium 4 bolt 64 x 104mm chainrings. We even stock a 20tooth and a 21tooth granny! The only one on the market. Call Action Tec about using a Pro Shock on your specific application. Recumbents, Quads, Road, or offroad. To retro you need a 1 1/4" headtube 107mm long. We are also making long lasting titanium 36, 38, 39,&40 tooth cogs for Shimano cassette hubs and single speeds. Ask about making custom tooth cogs?_


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*ok...*



DeeEight said:


> 1. Usually but not always.
> 
> 2. Saying that titanium is "soft" is just you trying to make excuses as usual and trying to put down the competition. The material is still stiffer than aluminium and Action-Tec's cogs have never been accused of being flexy and oh, they've only got FIFTEEN years of proven performance behind them. As to surface hardness, there's a reason action tec offers their cogsets in a heat-treated version also (which still is cheaper than your cassettes). Heat-treating the titanium increases the strength and the hardness.
> 
> ...


just show us pics of those cassettes on a scale or give me detailed weights!

Action tec might have been a lightweight option 15 years ago when shimano still didn't offer the spider cassettes. from that moment on there was no market anymore. sorry D8, they almost don't exist anymore. just show me the latest thread in this forum showing such a cassette....at least i can't remember and i'm a regular in here for a couple of years.....200$ for a cassette that is heavier and weaker by design? are you kidding?

oh-maybe someone should tell them that you can get 20t sprockets for 4-bolt cranks from germany as well. they sure need to do such extreme things as the main market, titanium cogs as they did decades ago isn't asked anymore.


----------



## f3rg (Aug 29, 2007)

Nino, God, Himself, could give you directions to make the perfect (fill in component here), and DeeEight would still criticise it. Just keep making your parts and enjoy your success.

D8, seriously, dude, it's Thanksgiving. Give Nino a break for one day.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*just one look...*



f3rg said:


> Nino, God, Himself, could give you directions to make the perfect (fill in component here), and DeeEight would still criticise it. Just keep making your parts and enjoy your success.
> 
> D8, seriously, dude, it's Thanksgiving. Give Nino a break for one day.


D8 - do yourself a favour before you continue to defend a MTB dinosaur:
have a look here what such Action-Tec cassettes weigh
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=cassettes

and i think there is no further comments needed - good night

oh sorry - 1 comment:
237g for a 8-speed cassette..........................old weight of the 8-speed days. just as i mentioned above from another timezone. goes to show that Action tec indeed is very hip, state of the art, everyday stuff found on several light bikes, right?


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## gratiflying (Sep 21, 2006)

a 7700 12-27 Dura-ace is actually a very good cassette to build your own light weight custom geared cassette. the actual gearing profile is very good. obviously your terrain and riding style will determine how much gear spacing you need and where you need more/less within those gears.

action tec doesn't appear to make sense compared to shimano from a weight perspective unless you want some custom gearing.

old m960 and new 970 11-34 XTRs (11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-34) are 244g which compare favourably to action tec but ninos at 48g lighter are pretty tempting albeit unproven and at a hefty premium.

new 11-32 m970 is 226g (11-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32). again nino's at 42g lighter is pretty tempting for the hardcore WW willing to spend $3/gram over M970.

i'm going to build a 11-27 DA as others have done and the spacing is sweet (11-12-13-15-17-19-21-24-27) - almost the same as the first 8 on new xtr except an extra gear in there to keep it tight for the faster riding i plan to do with it. should be approx 180g or less as the 11t will be lighter than the 14t steel cog. this is a better alternative than action tec IMO and with the nino cassete only being 10g lighter, the only reason to buy it is if you want the gearing to 30t which may be better for your intended riding.

a 11-30/32 DA is also an option (11-13-15-17-19-21-24-27-30/32) but the bottom gear spacing (similar to xtr) is a bit bigger than the middle DA cogs - cost would be similar to M970 so why not just go M970? perhaps because it's likely lighter by 15-20g? but heavier than the nino cassette by est. 20g.

nice to have choices.


----------



## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

nino said:


> just show us pics of those cassettes on a scale or give me detailed weights!
> 
> Action tec might have been a lightweight option 15 years ago when shimano still didn't offer the spider cassettes. from that moment on there was no market anymore. sorry D8, they almost don't exist anymore. just show me the latest thread in this forum showing such a cassette....at least i can't remember and i'm a regular in here for a couple of years.....200$ for a cassette that is heavier and weaker by design? are you kidding?
> 
> oh-maybe someone should tell them that you can get 20t sprockets for 4-bolt cranks from germany as well. they sure need to do such extreme things as the main market, titanium cogs as they did decades ago isn't asked anymore.


Why is it you cannot present facts when someone calls you to the carpet on your lies and ravings and rantings about competitors products?

Shimano introduced spider cassettes in 1992. What year is this? 2007. What's 2007 - 15 ? The fact is, Action Tec still sells the cassettes 15 years later, and that tends to suggest that there's still demand for them.

Why is it weaker by design? Because you say it is? Yeah you're not biased in the slightest here for this thread.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

nino said:


> D8 - do yourself a favour before you continue to defend a MTB dinosaur:
> have a look here what such Action-Tec cassettes weigh
> http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=cassettes
> 
> ...


Given how out of date and infrequently updated that site is, I try and use it for references as little as possible. The fact that only one person submitted a weight on something doesn't mean it hasn't sold well. It just means only one person cared to submit a weight to a site that rarely actually TAKES the submissions and does anything with them.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

gratiflying said:


> a 7700 12-27 Dura-ace is actually a very good cassette to build your own light weight custom geared cassette. the actual gearing profile is very good. obviously your terrain and riding style will determine how much gear spacing you need and where you need more/less within those gears.
> 
> action tec doesn't appear to make sense compared to shimano from a weight perspective unless you want some custom gearing.
> 
> ...


i was using DA cassettes for years myself.
BUT taking out a cog and adding an 11t leaves a gap in the shifting ramps which are all aligned ,one behind the other...you will notice shifting problems after that modification. i tried it but eventually went back to 12-27 because of this.

just a sidenote:
i know for you americans the price is really steep. the problem is your weak dollar which is at an all time low at the moment. i'm sorry for this but there's not much i can do about that...about a year ago the cassette would have cost about 20% less.

for us foreigners US-ebay or shopping in the US in general is like paradise at the moment.

@D8:
sorry - i can't take your statements serious anymore until you show me pics and weights. easiest would be a thread on those cassettes of this forum. if these are commonly used as you say there will be infos in the net. good luck!


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## Broseph (Nov 9, 2006)

i still plan on getting an action-tec 11-34 8 speed cassette. nobody else makes one at the moment at a decent weight. the only other 11-34 8 speed cassettes are those goofy mega range ones.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

I emailed ActionTec (its not rocket science people) to check the 9sp weights as my records only have the 7s and 8s cassettes.

Yes, here are the nine speed weights:
11-19 = 133 grams
11-24 = 154 grams
11-27 = 185 grams
11-28 = 181 grams
11-30 = 233 grams
11-32 = 242 grams
Thank you for your interest in Action Tec Products
Russ Robinson


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## gratiflying (Sep 21, 2006)

Quote: "BUT taking out a cog and adding an 11t leaves a gap in the shifting ramps which are all aligned ,one behind the other...you will notice shifting problems after that modification. i tried it but eventually went back to 12-27 because of this."

Nino - did you use the DA 11T cog that comes on the other DA cassettes or is easily available as an individual cog? or a MTB cog? i would have thought that the DA cog (cheap/$15) fits perfectly as 11-23, 11-25, etc. road cassettes all use this 11t cog? strange that a DA 11T wouldn't fit the rest of a DA cassette?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*read again...*



gratiflying said:


> Quote: "BUT taking out a cog and adding an 11t leaves a gap in the shifting ramps which are all aligned ,one behind the other...you will notice shifting problems after that modification. i tried it but eventually went back to 12-27 because of this."
> 
> Nino - did you use the DA 11T cog that comes on the other DA cassettes or is easily available as an individual cog? or a MTB cog? i would have thought that the DA cog (cheap/$15) fits perfectly as 11-23, 11-25, etc. road cassettes all use this 11t cog? strange that a DA 11T wouldn't fit the rest of a DA cassette?


the 11t fits perfectly, that's not the problem. but taking out a cog in the middle leaves a gap in the otherwise perfectly aligned shifting ramps. take a closer look at your shimano cassette and you will see that all shifting ramps are aligned one behind the other.by taking out a cog there will be a gap which makes for rattling instead of a perfect shift.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

nino said:


> i was using DA cassettes for years myself.
> BUT taking out a cog and adding an 11t leaves a gap in the shifting ramps which are all aligned ,one behind the other...you will notice shifting problems after that modification. i tried it but eventually went back to 12-27 because of this.
> 
> just a sidenote:
> ...


Is the dollar weak or the Euro too strong? Wall Street Journal believes the latter and criticized European banking policies for waiting to slash interest rates to curb inflation in the EU...


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*dollar is low...*



MessagefromTate said:


> Is the dollar weak or the Euro too strong? Wall Street Journal believes the latter and criticized European banking policies for waiting to slash interest rates to curb inflation in the EU...


the US tries it's best to get the dollar that low...it raises US sales as it makes american products a bargain for us
a cheap way to fix bad politics and financial problems. might become a boomerang though.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

It's simple supple and demand, econ 101. They've given away billions of dollars in Iraq, huge surplus of us dollars in the market. So the demand goes down. I don't want this to become an Iraq thread, that's not the point, but if you give that much money away, lose it, whatever it's going to decrease the value of the currency.


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## MessagefromTate (Jul 12, 2007)

nino said:


> the US tries it's best to get the dollar that low...it raises US sales as it makes american products a bargain for us
> a cheap way to fix bad politics and financial problems. might become a boomerang though.


The yen dropped in value compared to the dollar (and the Japanese have far more penetration in our markets than in Europe), you should study more before making your typical blanket anti-US statements that you are so prone to on this board...

Yes, a weak dollar helps exports but it also hurts the sale of T-Bonds (which the US need to fund some of our activities abroad, right or wrong).


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## dirtdrop (Dec 29, 2003)

All right guys, lets keep this on topic and not make it a Political-Socio-Economic-Religion thread. 

You can discuss this type of thing in there instead :thumbsup:


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## supramk388 (Mar 6, 2007)

nino said:


> as mentioned above i finally got my titanium cassettes. i am impressed to say the least but take a closer look yourself....


Very nice! Thanks for taking the time to design these and have them made :thumbsup:. I do not mind paying for qty, and I will be getting a set or two from you soon.


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

Nino, do you have an online store or is the MTBR classifieds the best way?


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

Which titanium alloy are the cogs made of? Is it 3Al-2V or 6AL-4V?


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Hey THERE'S a good question... what kinda titanium is it ?


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## ghawk (Sep 14, 2007)

Cool, and ramped (KCNC cassettes aren't ramped I don't beleive from looking at the pics.)


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## ghawk (Sep 14, 2007)

nino said:


> i'll make sure to get a classified add when before posting them so all those whiners are happy....i expect them in about 2 weeks.


Pricing? Hey how about I build you a website in exchange for some of these lightweight parts ?
Simple web ordering shopping cart site. Actually, you can build your own pretty easy on ebay. But, would not be near as cool as mine.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

he sells on ebay also already


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## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

nino said:


> what's the benefit of using road cassettes on a MTB?


this is too funny, before you had these ti cassettes made and started selling them
you raved about how much better a roadie cassette was off road for the tighter
gearing, but now that you can make a buck off of your own, this is ALL you run
and now bash road cassettes.


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*completely WRONG!!!*



peabody said:


> this is too funny, before you had these ti cassettes made and started selling them
> you raved about how much better a roadie cassette was off road for the tighter
> gearing, but now that you can make a buck off of your own, this is ALL you run
> and now bash road cassettes.


WRONG - please read again:
i ask and give the answer right below:
because the roadie cassette has those nice, closer spaced gearing! BUT what Slobberdoggy did was ruining all the benefit such a roadie cassette gives.

so next time please read better or try to understand what i'm writing!

i still think that clooser gears are the way to go. that's why i offer the 11-30 cassette and that's why i use a 29t on my own bike as the 29 ring gives me closer gear ratios for a constant cadence. i don't like the big gear changes a standard 11-32 cassette on a 22/33/44 gives.

problem with the 12-27 DA cassette is that you are left out with no real low gear and not perfect top speed. you can compensate the low gear with a 20t granny ring which is what i used for years. but modifying top speed by taking out a cog and adding an 11t is no good and leaves a gap in the aligned shifting ramps.

best of both worlds is my 11-30 which still offers a low gear and also a 11t for best top speed AND having lower weight as well


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

got an excuse / clever spin for everything don't you ?


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*well...*



DeeEight said:


> got an excuse / clever spin for everything don't you ?


you have nothing relevant to say most of the time so we match up pretty good:thumbsup:

what do you think let me do a 11-30???
no - not just lower weight. i was using 12-27 DA cassettes for the last 8 years or so and loved the closer ratios BUT i had to live with missing low gear and missing top speed. an 11-30 is indeed the best of both worlds and that's why. it's as simple as that.


----------



## mtb143 (Aug 26, 2007)

*Hub damage?*

Nino, on a thread about the new SRAM Red cassette, here: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=360407, you wrote:



nino said:


> i just tried to find out how all the load might be distributed on a freehub but if it's really just these 2 points then it's going to damage any aluminium (sic) freehub bodies.


The Red cassette engagement with the hub appears to be at least twice as wide at each of its two contact points as several of the cogs in your cassette. What keeps your cassette from damaging aluminum freehubs?


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

mtb143 said:


> Nino, on a thread about the new SRAM Red cassette, here: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=360407, you wrote:
> 
> The Red cassette engagement with the hub appears to be at least twice as wide at each of its two contact points as several of the cogs in your cassette. What keeps your cassette from damaging aluminum freehubs?


Shimano also has spiders and individual cogs. it's the bigger cogs that take more load and do harm to aluminium bodies. but sure individual cogs can hurt alloy freehubs. so do shimano cassettes but only minor.

the problem i see with the red cassette is that all the load, on all cogs, is distributed by rather small areas only. i sure think they did some testing but still, i see all the load of ALL the riding distributed on a very small area.


----------



## wheelhot (Jan 6, 2006)

Thats a very interesting Red Sprocket design. How much do it weight compare to Shimano lightest casette offering?


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

The RED group cassette is 160 grams for a 10 speed road cassette (think its an 11-26 range). And as mentioned repeated in the thread for that cassette nino, the engagement area is wider than singlespeed cogs offered by companies like Surly and King which don't damage Alloy freehub bodies themselves and they're subjected to far greater stresses.


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

XTR M950 11-30t and 12-32t, note the nice wide spacing of 8-speed


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

snowdrifter said:


> XTR M950 11-30t and 12-32t, note the nice wide spacing of 8-speed


nice wide?

we need closer ratios and not wide ones like in the past. that's why we have multiple gears anyway.

shown below:
10s "Shimano" 11-27....no need for "heavy" titanium on the road:thumbsup:


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## mtb143 (Aug 26, 2007)

nino said:


> ...but sure individual cogs can hurt alloy freehubs.


So your lightweight cassette may damage aluminum freehubs? Doesn't that contradict the whole point of losing weight if you should use your cassette with a steel freehub?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

mtb143 said:


> nino said:
> 
> 
> > but sure individual cogs can hurt alloy freehubs. so do shimano cassettes but only minor.QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

Spacing, as in between each cog, it's a mtn bike, it's get's dirty and wet, these puppies run smooth


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

snowdrifter said:


> Spacing as in between each cog, it's a mtn bike, it's get's dirty and wet, these puppies run smooth


maybe time to try out a narrower 10s chain then 
works great on 9s as well and is lighter too and guess what: there's less chance for the problems you are talking about...

and SS runs smoother still


----------



## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

I prefer the x9 chain, regardless your cassettes look real nice, too spendy though, but it's a niche market, some fools will drop the 3bills.
I'm saving these 8s cassettes for a hardtail project, 40/28t x 11-30t.


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## mtb143 (Aug 26, 2007)

nino said:


> mtb143 said:
> 
> 
> > if you can read my post above closer and if you have ever used a Shimano or SRAM cassette you will have seen individual cogs just like on my cassette as well. no big deal really....
> ...


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

mtb143 said:


> nino said:
> 
> 
> > Well, which is it? On the SRAM Red thread you stated that an interface at least twice as wide as some cogs on your cassette will damage aluminum freehubs. Now you're saying that it's no big deal. I agree that it's no big deal for someone who is using a steel freehub, but the whole point of your titanium cassette is to save precious grams, like those saved by an aluminum freehub. And the light aluminum freehub would appear to not be compatible with your light titanium cassette. So which is it - the SRAM Red cassette is safe and nondestructive (and so is yours), or they are both destructive (and yours is possibly more destructive because the cogs are even narrower than the SRAM Red interface)?
> ...


----------



## peabody (Apr 15, 2005)

nino said:


> Shimano also has spiders and individual cogs. it's the bigger cogs that take more load and do harm to aluminium bodies. but sure individual cogs can hurt alloy freehubs. so do shimano cassettes but only minor.
> 
> the problem i see with the red cassette is that all the load, on all cogs, is distributed by rather small areas only. i sure think they did some testing but still, i see all the load of ALL the riding distributed on a very small area.


i believe the red cassette is handling all the loads thru the other cogs(2-8) by the way the back plate is keyed to fit into each of the big teeth on the big cog. so the loads from the cogs 2-8 are first loading these keyed teeth features and then it is loading the actual
cassette body features. it is creating a diverting path for the loads and making the loads
travel thru basically 2 lever arms.


----------



## mtb143 (Aug 26, 2007)

nino said:


> mtb143 said:
> 
> 
> > you still didn't get the point:
> ...


----------



## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

snowdrifter said:


> XTR M950 11-30t and 12-32t, note the nice wide spacing of 8-speed


Where can I buy a XTR 11-30?


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

mtb143 said:


> nino said:
> 
> 
> > No, Nino, YOU still don't get the point. This is a straightforward question about YOUR cassette versus statements that YOU made about SRAM's Red cassette, and it has nothing to do with any Shimano cassette.
> ...


----------



## mtb143 (Aug 26, 2007)

...as long as you don't spend too much time in cogs 2 - 5.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*shimano...*



mtb143 said:


> ...as long as you don't spend too much time in cogs 2 - 5.


maybe tell that to Shimano and SRAM engineers as well....good night!


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

Baulz said:


> Where can I buy a XTR 11-30?


Baulz, keep in mind, the 11-30 is a 8spd cassette. Shimano no longer makes them. I purchased some through closeout last year, but you can find them on ebay, used and new, just takes some searching.

http://cgi.ebay.com/XTR-Shimano-8-S...ryZ42328QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

nino said:


> mtb143 said:
> 
> 
> > no-it's you that still didn't get it.
> ...


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Lots of 11-30s up here in canada still.


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## f3rg (Aug 29, 2007)

I don't think I've ever seen someone so abused over such nonsense.

Nino's point is one that also hit me when I first saw that Red cassette, which is all force to the hub will always be at that one point, no matter the gear. Also, Nino's larger gears are riveted into sets of two, which should give them the same thickness as that Red cassette's one contact point. However, since you'll be using multiple 2-cog-thickness contact points on Nino's cassette, the force won't always be on the hub in the very same spot. A five year old could understand what he is trying to get across. My cat probably could, too, and he's an especially stupid cat.

Another thing I'm curious about is how many of you who routinely bash Nino's efforts actually make parts of your own? At the least dude's giving it a shot, and I'd personally prefer to give my money to a smaller guy than a world-wide corporation. Of course, I still buy stuff from the big guys mostly because I can't afford the sort of stuff Nino makes. But maybe in time...


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

"make parts" lol... he's not making parts. He's ordering from the catalog of REAL manufacturers and selling them at a markup.

He's no more making parts than brands that order forks from XACD in china were a few years ago (like Spicer's Titanium forks for example).


PS... can your cat explain to you that people who run singlespeeds with freehub bodies that are alloy, with wide base SS cogs... have all the stress on the same point, all the time, and their freehubs don't experience damage so hmmmm.... somehow magically because its a cogset its going to be different because nino says so??!

RIGHT.


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

*To what D8 said . . .*



f3rg said:


> At the least dude's giving it a shot, and I'd personally prefer to give my money to a smaller guy than a world-wide corporation. Of course, I still buy stuff from the big guys mostly because I can't afford the sort of stuff Nino makes. But maybe in time...


Nino used to sell stuff from small European manufacturers like Schmolke, Becker, THM-Carbons and BTP but he gave up on them as far as I can tell 

OTOH, Nino does exactly what Surly and many other brands do - just the marketing rhetoric and method is different  I have to giggle a little when I see certain people on Surlys but the Surly dudes who run it are super cool so that makes up for it. I pick on Surly because they are relatively young and from America iirc.

BTW I used to sell ti bmx handlebars from xacd :blush: You can give them some specs written in an email and they will sending you a blueprint like file for Word. You look at it and ask for changes and send it back and they make it. Quality is purty shurty in some cases.


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## bobbyOCR (Feb 11, 2007)

/\ exactly. If the total contact area is large enough, no matter how long you apply a certain force, it will not eat into the freehub body. Especially since RED cassette's have an alloy backing plate, that will definitely not eat into the freehub body, you need a harder metal. Of course, riders putting out more power may overcome this threshold, but I'm sure SRAM's engineers would have taken that into account and made it wide enough to not bite in. The other important point is the RED cassette's teeth lock into every spline, not just 3 like most of the cogs in a shimano cassette (10 speed anyway). 

As to the point about the force not being distributed in the same spot....force doesn't magically accumulate. If you apply the same force at different positions, sure, it'll affect each but it won't stay in a previous position. If you apply force to a position for an extended period of time, it won't build up and destroy the material if the force is below a certain threshold. If a RED cassette doesn't bite with a certain force, it never will on that freehub body.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Exactly... and if that's all the criteria that's needed to be "making parts" well BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, LONG AGO ! See I opened the very second online bike shop on the web, THIRTEEN years ago. And well, at a certain stage I added my own housebrand line of parts to my business. I went to russian manufacturing though instead of taiwanese.

Titanium Seatposts









Titanium bolts kits, axles, stem expander bolts, seatpost clamp bolts, and bottom brackets









Crank Arms









And handlebars









oh and titanium derailleur pulleys


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## bobbyOCR (Feb 11, 2007)

What did the crankarms weigh?


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Well about 420g for 175mm arms, without inner ring spacers, 74/110 5-bolt pattern. My last set is on my cyclocross bike and I don't feel like taking 'em off right now to weigh 'em. But the second to last set I put on a budgetlight hardtail build a few years ago and that one was 665g as cranks, bolts, spacers and chainrings (24/36/46).


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*slight correction...*



Slobberdoggy said:


> Nino used to sell stuff from small European manufacturers like Schmolke, Becker, THM-Carbons and BTP but he gave up on them as far as I can tell


i still sell all that stuff BUT rather try to convince people to keep it realistic. I did that exact same thing with you as well if you remember. you asked me about all this exotic parts when i was selecting parts for your Scott Scale and it seemed money was no object...you asked me about all the super exotic parts and i tried to keep you on the ground as you told me you are a rather heavy guy and former BMXer and like to go fast (correct me if i'm wrong but i remeber those were your words)....therefore i thought it might be wise to keep clear of those ultra-light but also fragile parts. i could have made more money by selling them but i was just giving you advice to keep things on a level that would take the abuse.

now, over the years, there has been some manufacturers offering parts of similar weight at MUCH lower cost which makes me think twice about the pricing of some boutique manufacturer. 
for example we have now KCNC seatposts that weigh just about 10g more than the almost 3 times pricier New Ultimate seatposts...and about 1/5th of a Schmolke TLO seatpost.
I am driving guys away from buying New Ultimate Carbon seatposts because those got heavier than the aluminium version...why buy AX-Lightness saddles when a Becker is 30% cheaper etc...people ask about carbon clamps for the front derailleur that cost 100 euro but mine broke after just a couple of weeks so i don't suggest them anymore altough i could make money by selling them...Carbon-Ti chainrings that cost a fortune but aren't any lighter than a nice aluminium sprocket...i have pictures of most exotic parts on a Scale and if guys still want it they can get it.

as far as Cassettes are concerned:
i was selling lots of aluminium cassettes in the past yet i was riding a 12-27 DA all those past years. but as most of us i was always looking for a nice, lightweight cassette on the market but it never happened. so i finally decided to make my own. D8 sure is right that it is not me personally standing behind the CNC-machines doing the cogs....but i was the one going for this project. no simple ordering out of a catalogue , no ready to buy part !

the RED cassette is sure a piece of art. i'm sure there are more than enough capable engineers that had a look at the mentioned problems. but the desing still makes me think....that's all. too bad the red backing plate covers all the machining. that would be really nice if it could be seen from behind.


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

snowdrifter said:


> Baulz, keep in mind, the 11-30 is a 8spd cassette. Shimano no longer makes them. I purchased some through closeout last year, but you can find them on ebay, used and new, just takes some searching.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/XTR-Shimano-8-S...ryZ42328QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


I am aware that it's 8 speed, currently using a M950 12-32, but don't need the 32t cog.

Trying to decide between XT 11-30 and Ultegra 12-27, but would rather have the XTR if I can find one.


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## bobbyOCR (Feb 11, 2007)

disappointing.

My aim is to try to get some Deus cranks down to 790g.


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## Batas (Jan 16, 2004)

Baulz said:


> I am aware that it's 8 speed, currently using a M950 12-32, but don't need the 32t cog.
> 
> Trying to decide between XT 11-30 and Ultegra 12-27, but would rather have the XTR if I can find one.


 Curious thing, I just ordered an Ultegra 12-27 to see how it works for me... Been on a XT 11-32, but almost didn't use the 32t...

Is there to much difference between 27t and 28t ?


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

Batas said:


> Curious thing, I just ordered an Ultegra 12-27 to see how it works for me... Been on a XT 11-32, but almost didn't use the 32t...
> 
> Is there to much difference between 27t and 28t ?


It shouldn't make too much difference, other than being a bit faster up the hills.


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

Baulz said:


> I am aware that it's 8 speed, currently using a M950 12-32, but don't need the 32t cog.
> 
> Trying to decide between XT 11-30 and Ultegra 12-27, but would rather have the XTR if I can find one.


do I hear a trade? I have an extra 11-30, slightly used.


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

snowdrifter said:


> do I hear a trade? I have an extra 11-30, slightly used.


Sorry, have no interest in used cassettes, unless you want to trade for a very, very used 12-32.


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## mafia6 (Sep 30, 2005)

wow...thats a nice number of ti bits u have there.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

yes... i like Ti bits... i still have a lot of that stuff in stock actually, sometime this week i'll get around to adding classified ads for some of it. And don't PM me for the handlebars when no ad goes up for 'em, I don't have any left. They weren't very light.


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## EuroMack (Jan 15, 2007)

DeeEight said:


> yes... i like Ti bits... i still have a lot of that stuff in stock actually, sometime this week i'll get around to adding classified ads for some of it. And don't PM me for the handlebars when no ad goes up for 'em, I don't have any left. They weren't very light.


Tell us more about the Syncros knockoff seatpost. Why is there a hole in the mast? What does it weigh? What sizes do you have?


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Essentially its a copy of a third generation syncros post shaft with the second generation clamp hardware. The hole is to pass a lock thru... so you can remove your post and lock it up to your bike. 27.2 x 330mm only. With the original hardware that was made with the posts, 240g with steel bolts. But the heads are compatible with all but first generation syncros 2-bolt head/hardware as well as thomson hardware (and yes thomson is therefore compatible with syncros and vice versa). So its possible to run different hardware to get lighter results.


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## BlownCivic (Sep 12, 2006)

Hey D8,

I find it odd that you're doing exactly what you regularly berate Nino for doing, and right in his own thread to boot!


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Unlike the majority of nino's posts, i'm not concerned about selling them. I haven't bothered to list ads for any of it in ohhh.... a year maybe. That being said, I've probably spent more money on ads in the classifieds than ANY other user on mtbr. When I want to sell stuff, I buy the ad. Nino wants to sell something, he says "PM me" and only buys an ad when the mods call him to the mat over it.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*cool*



BlownCivic said:


> Hey D8,
> 
> I find it odd that you're doing exactly what you regularly berate Nino for doing, and right in his own thread to boot!


:thumbsup:


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## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

Nino: you ordered a set of Recon cassettes?
Like these:
http://www.schwanercycleparts.nl/?p=producten&c=cassettes
http://www.recon-harry.com.tw/recon_02.html

Is it right?


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

Yes this is the same casette haha 
I've asked them about the price, it's amazing low and Yours price is almost double - nice deal

Soo nino, you've said something about made by your own


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

*yikes*

busted!


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## Ole (Feb 22, 2004)

*Not the same*

Nino's cassette has two alu carriers with 2 cogs each. The Recon one has one carrier with 3 cogs.

Some other details are very similar, so it might be that Nino gets his cassettes made by Recon. I certainly don't believe Nino sits at home and makes them with his stone cutting tools.

Ole.


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## dennis rides Scott (Mar 3, 2005)

I'm kind of fed up with this 'lets bash Nino' forum. I come here to read about nice light cycle stuff and I only read crap.

Buy!!


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## womble (Sep 8, 2006)

tehan said:


> Yes this is the same casette haha
> I've asked them about the price, it's amazing low and Yours price is almost double - nice deal
> 
> Soo nino, you've said something about made by your own


So the 'tehan', account was created 12 months ago has only made 9 posts in that time. 7 of them to bash nino.

Anything suspicious here? Someone's second account, maybe? 'Tehan', if you're going to do some nino-bashing, at least be upfront about it.


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## Patriot222 (Dec 16, 2007)

This thread is a trophy to the hatefulness of humanity. It's amazing to me that a guy like Nino only has to show us some bike parts and the he get badgered ridiculously by the same 3 or 4 people over and over again. 

I only saw the last pages but couldn't understand what must have happened to stir such childish behavior so I went back through this entire eight page thread trying to find where Nino had instigated some kind of ill will. What's amazing is that I never found it. I never came across a post were Nino lashed out or insulted somebody. All the insults are directed and him and he rarely directs harsh speech back. 

I've only been posting for a month so coming along as an observer I'm in awe of what this thread devolved into and also surprised that admin does nothing about the personal insults thrown around here. I'm a member of several other forums and we don't see this kind of behavior in them. It's ok to disagree but come on guys, this makes the forum so that it's not even enjoyable. Suck up the nastiness and maybe go to church or something.


With regards to the Cassette. It does look like a really nice design and offers more durability that aluminum alloy. I think it makes sense but it is specialized and unique and therefore expensive. I'm really considering purchasing one if that KCNC doesn't work well when I get it back from Jacky.

I really agree with Nino about the tightly spaced gear sets. I come from a road racing background and much prefer the small changes in ratio. Even here in the mountains a rarely have to shift down to a 27 when I have a 22 up front. On a 29er I don't need that 11 cog either. For me the 12-27 is perfect and still gives some riding flexibility. Thanks for posting this.


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## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

My intention was never to insult Ninos ability to digging up lightweight parts.

I only wondered if Recon was the maker or something like that.

Make own cogsets and carriers is IMHO too much invested behind the computer and unsafe profit.

I´ve bought stuff from Nino and will do again.


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## edge808 (Apr 6, 2007)

was that recon product posted on page 7 a 10s set? maybe that's why it's different...

the 9s version featured on the site looks a whole bunch similar though.


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

womble said:


> So the 'tehan', account was created 12 months ago has only made 9 posts in that time. 7 of them to bash nino.
> 
> Anything suspicious here? Someone's second account, maybe? 'Tehan', if you're going to do some nino-bashing, at least be upfront about it.


It's my only account here. I have other on WW with the same name, an on light-bike.com also the same name on polish forum and there have nearly 1000posts if You must know.

This casette wchich i have shovn is road 12-25 10speed. Are You soo blind to recognise THAT???? I've shown this one because I've asked recon about this one, soo they have sent me this photo only!! 
I truly belive that 11-32 ninos is the same that recon!!! because Recon will do for You anything casette You want in any configuration. And normal 11-32 as nino shown is cheap as hell!!! it costs much less than xtr casette!! and bit more than XT.


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## Rick205 (Jul 6, 2006)

If they are Recon cassettes - and you say the price is 'low' please add on import duty, delivery, vat and Nino's time spent organising listings, testing, etc

Do you think you would be doubling your money on them if you marked them up 100% on what you paid for them?:nono: 

Plus, has anybody else got the balls to order 100 cassettes? - thats about $10,000 if you order them from Recon.

DeeEight & Others- Im also a retailer here in the UK - i dont post on forums so i understand it can be annoying watching others sell for free, but i have to say Ninos information is exeptionally informative and helpfull in most cases, where else would people get this info from such as weights etc? - You spend way too much time of your life flaming Nino, put that time into something productive!

Nino- People are right to an extent, get a website or somethings setup, it is a little annoying watching you plug your products for free, no matter how informative i find your posts.

Rant over.
Rick


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

Rick205 said:


> If they are Recon cassettes - and you say the price is 'low' please add on import duty, delivery, vat and Nino's time spent organising listings, testing, etc
> 
> Do you think you would be doubling your money on them if you marked them up 100% on what you paid for them?:nono:
> 
> ...


I've add these costs and You don't need to but 100. I've been spoken to them soo I KNOW. Soo please don't tell me this.
By the way - nino have any company that have to pay duty and vat??? 
I've bought some products from Taiwan and China in then number over 20 items in one package and never paid duty and vat


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## Rick205 (Jul 6, 2006)

Well, i have also spoken to Recon (some time ago) and know their prices. - They state a minimum order of 100 mtb titanium cassettes on their terms of trade, so i 'KNOW' too.

I have imported a number of items from taiwan and have to pay duty and vat 100% of the time when the items are above a certain value (most of the time as it is stock for resale) - its part of running a business (correctly).

As i say, add up the hidden costs too, and besides, if he is making a profit, do you think people should be retailing for free out of the goodness of their heart>


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

Rick205 said:


> Well, i have also spoken to Recon (some time ago) and know their prices. - They state a minimum order of 100 mtb titanium cassettes on their terms of trade, so i 'KNOW' too.
> 
> I have imported a number of items from taiwan and have to pay duty and vat 100% of the time when the items are above a certain value (most of the time as it is stock for resale) - its part of running a business (correctly).
> 
> As i say, add up the hidden costs too, and besides, if he is making a profit, do you think people should be retailing for free out of the goodness of their heart>


I've spoken with them 3days ago and they are able to sell less than 100
Also, You have buissnes (company) soo yuo need to pay duty and vat. For eg nino doesn't touching these costs because he is selling on ebay without giving you a bill

It's not about that, he is selling it with profit(large ), but about that, he told he "made" this casette by his own- wchich is definately not true.
Besides, do You realy belive that he bought 100psc just for make sure these cassets are good, and not valid? I'm sure that he bought not more than 3 in first deal with recon. 
No one will buy 100psc in blind, don't knowing about this company more than simple information on their www site.


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## Rick205 (Jul 6, 2006)

I totaly agree with you on most comments there tehan, all of your points are valid. yes its unlikely nino has designed that cassette himself, i asked this myself a long time ago in the thread - i got no answer.

And i agree with your comments about ordering 100 - it may be something they stipulate after a sample order has been agreed?, but if you have recieved information otherwise then you are most likely right and they will deal in less than 100 (of course you would be an idiot buying 100 products blind!)

There is a seller here in the uk that does a similar thing with some products - states they are his 'own' and his design when they are just taken out of the manufacturers packaging!


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*well...*

may i clarify since there seems to be guys that think to know better:

i sold many aluminium cassettes in the past. for roadbikes they are no problem, for mountainbikes simply not durable enough. i had aluminium cassettes coated with super-hightech coatings here in Switzerland which definitely helped some in durability but it raised the price to insane levels.
so i was looking for a more durable cassette design which obviously is not possible using aluminium cogs. since i already was in contact with Recon for years i contacted them and told them my idea. they were all positive and we discussed fore and aft how such a cassette could be made that it would be light , durable and still not costing too much.

first prototypes were based on individual cogs out of sheet titanium. those following my titanium cassette project will remember that i showed them about 1 1/2 or even 2 years ago. i used them on my bikes only to realize that individual cogs will ruin aluminium freehubs. so back to the drawing board where 3 bolts got added to bolt the cogs together just like shimano did years ago...a couple of weeks later i got a second set of prototypes.this solved the problem but the larger cogs had a tendency to flex under load so they needed to be thicker material....i got a 3rd set of samples which seemed ok but then in an attempt to save weight these 3 bolts got made out of aluminium. no good, they didn't take the abuse....later designs also got cnc'd in the back in order to save a couple of grams...this went on and on....sending e-mails with pictures of what went wrong, what could be made better...i have a whole box filled with such prototypes. and as you know they never made it to production since i wasn't pleased enough about the product.

it was clear that for a production run about 100 cassettes needed to be ordered at once to make it reasonable. i wasn't willing to order such a huge quantity seeing that every prototype had minor glitches. we then quit the individual cog-project and it was clear that only a solution à la XTR would solve all my needs: light weight, stiff cogs and no harm on freehubs.

so i got 1st prototypes of these spider-cassettes past summer (the golden ones) and tried them on my own bikes and had a racer of the swisspower team racing on another prototype just to make sure they indeed hold up and perform as they need to. after seeing everything was ok i ordered almost 100 pcs!! since i am the first one i needed to order such a quantity.

now i see these cassettes offered in other places and Recon even has them on their website...well - i can't hinder them from selling them. i don't hold any patent. but if you look around you will notice that i still offer the lowest prices, i offer optional "SL" kits which save an additional 9g (plastic spacers and full titanium 11t cog) and i have an additional size (11-30) which you don't see elsewhere and i have the cogs in bare titanium finish as i didn't like the disco-style gold.

so:
i sure needed someone with the know-how of making cassettes but it was me starting the project, it was me doing the testing and it is me spending the money so Recon was able to produce them at reasonable cost (tooling etc..).

i pay import tax and custom like any other does, so please don't talk sh!t. if you get parts from a foreign country at such a value you will have to pay TAX and custom...

if you look around you will see them offered at 229-239 euro = 340-355 US$

my pricing is more than 20% less than that !

other offerings on lightweight cassettes:
KCNC offers their aluminium cassettes for the same amount than i sell the titaniums...

there is KOCMO also offering 11-32 titanium cassettes: 269 euro = 400 US$ (oh they weigh well over 200g as well!)

Tune offers "rasselbande" titanium cassettes with individual cogs (cheap design, max cog size 28t...): 255 Euro = 380 US$

the statement that these cassettes cost less than an XT is simply bullsh!t !! they cost MUCH more right from the factory even before you add shipping and Tax...

so next time please consider all the work and effort that goes into such a project. sure i make some profit, but i am the one taking the full risk as well.

pictured below:
-some prototypes with individual cogs
-see backside which was machined and you can also see the 3 aluminium bolts that bolt together all the cogs
-and my Tune freehub after using the very first titanium prototype...no comment!


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## rockyuphill (Nov 28, 2004)

The flip side of off-shore manufacturers is that if one person asks them to design and build something for them specifically, that same item tends to magically appear under a dozen other brands shortly after the original vendor's order is filled. Intellectual property does not carry much weight when they're trying to maximize profit from the tooling costs. Who knows, maybe Nino was the first person to ask them for one. 

If anyone is going to run any business based on selling boutique items you'd expect at least 100% markup over the manufacturer direct cost, otherwise why would you bother. You can bet that Shimano's margin isn't any slimmer. If you have the time and patience to track down the OEM factory source for off-shore produced items you'd likely find out how cheap many big-name frames are at the factory level too. 

It's a free market economy, if Nino offers a service to the WW crowd, it's up to the buyers to decide if they think it's worth it. For people who would never have had access to the parts in any other way, it still may be a bargain if your own time is worth anything.

edit: Darn. I'm always late to the table on a post. Anyway, carry on....


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*contest...*

i offer a free dinner to anyone showing me a person that had these cassettes before me. i was the first, i was the one doing the testing and i am the first offering them as well.

good comment above - you can't blame them from making profit by selling parts elsewhere as well. i am no big company, so i sure have limited possibilities otherwise i may have ordered 1000 cassetttes and the price would have been lower for sure.... i really like Harry and appreciate all the effort he has put into this project as well. for them too it was a risk ! i met him personally too so we do really take care of each other.


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

I wrote that they cost more than xt but less than XTR!!! read with understanding!
Besides it's not your patent but its shimano patent!!! 
So what that You have 11-30, Recon will made anything You want. I will buy from them 13-28 for 9speed, against 10s wchich they are selling, and they will do me this custom work. Soo I should say It's my idea and my patent 

If You don't know how to don't pay tax and duty it's your problem. I've never paid from these countries any other money except shipping and china or taiwan bank fees(cost).


I give up this talking goes to nothing
next time nino don't write that you made something ,but maby project, and even that is to big word.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*ok...*



tehan said:


> I wrote that they cost more than xt but less than XTR!!! read with understanding!
> Besides it's not your patent but its shimano patent!!!
> So what thst You have 11-30, Recon will made anything You want. I will buy from them 13-28 for 9speed, against 10s wchich they are selling, and they will do me this custom work. Soo I should say It's my idea and my patent
> 
> If You don't know how to don't pay tax and duty it's your problem. I've never paid from these countries any other money except shipping and china or taiwan bank fees(cost).


i want to see your 13-28 cassette! you know, talking about things you don't know about is easy.

please show me that and how much it cost you to do....

i had planned to offer 11-28 as well but it was way too much involved to make it at reasonable cost and i would have to order a quantity that would have cost me another leg and an eye on top. so please - show me your 13-28! i have time


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

You will see some day.


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## Rick205 (Jul 6, 2006)

Thanks for clearing that one up Nino and good job on the instigation of the product - as i said in my post above, nobody takes into account hidden costs like tax and vat, plus all of your development time, and i presume money.

Also, people seem shocked that you are making a good profit, are you meant to sell for cost or something?!

Rick


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## linuxxx (Feb 14, 2006)

Nino , can you send me a Private msg with the current price in euros for the 11-32 SL. 
Thanks .


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## barratana (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi all,

Well, I´m new on this forum, but I want to say that ALL the post writen by Nino have my special atencion! Why? 

Because from all the posts that I can visit this guy is the only one that brings new stuff on a regular basis with some nice info from his equipment and from other equipments ( weigh,pictures )

This is the general ideia of this forum!

So, we can have 2 situations:

1- Nino is a smart guy that is using this forum to promote his stuff ( even so, thanks man! for showing this kind of equipment, very diferent from what I can see an offered in normal stores ), and he must have selled quite some, and nobody is complaining or feel foolen ( at least i haven´t seen on this forum....and they could use it...)

or 

2- Nino is a guy that have some nice ideias is well informed and likes to design new stuff or even makes existing equipment a litle better with improvements and uses this forum to show that!

Weither the way, Nino is far the best member showing this stuff
That´s why I´m on this weight and saving weight forum to see and learn new ideias and know new equipment and options

Now, I have a more options besides what merchandise and big companies give me!

I´m not forced to buy things from Nino!, But I have a all new vision on light stuff!

Thanks to guys like Nino and some other on this forum that help people with their opinions and experience!

So, let the guy show his suff, people can critisize and DO IT BETTER because untill now is being just personal....and I haven´t seen anybody showing so much stuff as this guy, or at least TALKING about it...


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## kevbikemad (Jan 2, 2006)

*really?*

nino, good on you for developing the cassettes. and good for explaining the entire story. i do recall the prototypes from about 2 years back and that the whole cassette thing kinda disappeared...

but as a business person, why would you go to all that work developing new cassettes and not protect your design is some way (patent or some agreements with Recon)? you are a sharp guy and as an artist you know the importance of protecting your work.

so you would do all that work for other companies and just float it out there?

i am sorry, but that is hard to believe. just so you can sell 100 units? wow, that is ultra boutique... oh wait, Recon (or other suppliers) are going to sell hundreds or thousands of units now because you gave the design away.

i have greatly appreciated all the new items and technical information you have brought to the forum. specially info about tires and rolling resistance etc and do think you are generally more interested in the WW parts scene than just selling parts, but this seems like an odd story. no production agreement with Recon, that they just rip off the design of their customers...


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## Baulz (Sep 16, 2005)

I was going to stay out of this, but here I am.  

There is nothing wrong with many of Nino's posts, this thread is a good example. He is showing us something new, which he does more than any other member. 

The problem is that he derails a lot of other threads by pushing the products he sells. 

Not too long ago there was a thread about affordable, but lightweigh cassettes. Nino jumped in with a photo of the cassette he sells, which are light but in no way can they be considered affordable. It was bad enough that the mods removed his post.

Most of the time Nino is fine with the way he posts, but sometimes he does go too far bashing products that he does not sell. That is what pisses people off, and that is why he gets so many negative responses now to anything he posts.


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## womble (Sep 8, 2006)

tehan said:


> It's my only account here. I have other on WW with the same name, an on light-bike.com also the same name on polish forum and there have nearly 1000posts if You must know.
> 
> This casette wchich i have shovn is road 12-25 10speed. Are You soo blind to recognise THAT???? I've shown this one because I've asked recon about this one, soo they have sent me this photo only!!
> I truly belive that 11-32 ninos is the same that recon!!! because Recon will do for You anything casette You want in any configuration. And normal 11-32 as nino shown is cheap as hell!!! it costs much less than xtr casette!! and bit more than XT.


So in the now 15 posts you have ever made on MTBR over 12 months, 13 of them simply criticise nino's posts. You've either got some sort of hidden agenda spilling from elsewhere, or you're just a very sad, sad person.

In fact, only 1 post you make ever offers constructive information- why don't you try _contributing _ to the forums for a change?


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

edit


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

snowdrifter said:


> Who's interested in a Group Buy from Recon?
> 
> I'm in contacts with them on a lot of 20 cassettes, checking if they have to be the same cogset.


if you buy multiple cassettes at a time i could offer a nice price as well, all sizes possible...


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## tehan (Jan 22, 2007)

He can't have patent on this because Shimano have!!
I thought it's obvius for everybody, buy I see not everyone use brain here


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## Patriot222 (Dec 16, 2007)

LOL!!!! :lol: Look at Nino's comment below,



> *Nino*
> i had planned to offer 11-28 as well but it was way too much involved to make it at reasonable cost and i would have to order a quantity that would have cost me another leg and an eye on top. so please - show me your 13-28! i have time


Now look at this kindergarten non-sense:



tehan said:


> You will see some day.


It's like trying to reason with a five year old. This guy is obviously a troll and admin seems to be non-existent when it comes to this sort of thing.....:bluefrown:


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## Slobberdoggy (Sep 26, 2005)

How well do these actually shift?

Who here is using them?


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## dirtdrop (Dec 29, 2003)

Show me a classified ad for the cogs and I'll open the thread again.


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