# Haibike interview



## Francis Cebedo (Aug 1, 1996)

Haibike makes the argument for e-mountain bikes - Mtbr.com

Chime in the article pls.


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## singletrackmack (Oct 18, 2012)

First off, the interview never addresses the elephant in the room, which is "more power" and how powerful these ebikes will get.

Second, thinking that Americans are going to behave like eroupeans shows how little foresight this guy has. For example we ride the **** out of dirt bikes here something not popular at all in Europe.

Maybe someone should show him what we do to our pick up trucks. You think Europeans are driving around in trucks like this?


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## ghoti (Mar 23, 2011)

E-bikes are likely the future unless various rules restrict their access. Any single month or even weekend this year I've seen more e-bikers than I've seen cumulatively in the past. Range, weigh and power will continue to improve and we'll probably all be on them. 

It's a technology like anything else that allows us to increase range, speed, etc. Some people want to draw a line between mechanical gearing to increase leverage/power output and electrical means. Why that distinction, I dunno. They favor one means but condemn another. One's cheating but the other isn't? It's still multiplying human output so what's the difference? If they have so much objection to drastically altering human output then why not ride a single speed. Or don't use any mechanical advantage whatsoever and walk instead. 

It seems short sighted to condemn the technology as a whole and not the people who misuse it. Same argument hikers to bar us from trails. We're using a mechanical device to great exceed trail speeds or even speeds that a human on foot is capable of. So ban all bikes because a few of us ride in an dangerous manner and overtake people at unsafe speeds. 

But maybe we should ban bikes. I noticed a lot of trails here have a 15 mph speed limit. I surpass this all the time and see every single other mtber do the same. Why should we still be allowed access? Conversely I've never seen a trail runner hit this speed.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Gears don't "multiply power", though, as much as you might like that to be true. They do change gain ratio/torque, but the mechanical advantage you get with a lower gear just results in lower speed for the same cadence.

I think the most interesting questions I would have liked to ask would have been:
1: What sort of trails are appropriate for e-bikes are what sort aren't, in Haibike's opinion? You've said you don't want access to "everything" but you didn't really clarify what that means. Do you mean only directional/bike only trails? Do you mean MUTs with low user density/good sight lines? What standard might we use to determine whether a trail is a good candidate for e-bike use?
2: What is Haibike doing to prevent user modification/dongling/delimiting? Do you think those efforts will be effective? Is Haibike willing to take responsiblity for users modifying their bikes in some way, or is it a situation where once the bike is sold, the company washes it's hands of the situation?
3: What trail design/advocacy/construction efforts does Haibike engage in? What portion of total revenue is devoted to this?
4: Would Haibike get behind an EU-standard 250W/15mph max power/speed rule for ALL offroad capable e-bikes? Or do you plan to continue offering higher power (with larger batteries/range) setups?

If you get a chance to ask, FC, that would be awesome.

-Walt


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## Mookie (Feb 28, 2008)

Those questions are far too insightful. They would expose exactly where Haibike stands and I'm sure they wouldn't want that to get out into the public domain.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

ghoti said:


> E-bikes are likely the future unless various rules restrict their access. Any single month or even weekend this year I've seen more e-bikers than I've seen cumulatively in the past. Range, weigh and power will continue to improve and we'll probably all be on them.
> 
> It's a technology like anything else that allows us to increase range, speed, etc. Some people want to draw a line between mechanical gearing to increase leverage/power output and electrical means. Why that distinction, I dunno. They favor one means but condemn another. One's cheating but the other isn't? It's still multiplying human output so what's the difference? If they have so much objection to drastically altering human output then why not ride a single speed. Or don't use any mechanical advantage whatsoever and walk instead.
> 
> ...


 Do you even shred, bro? Bikes don't have motors. E bikes are something else. Motorized. MA rider here, motorized vehicles not allowed on multi use off road trails. Thank goodness. Very clear, motor, no motor. Want me to type slower so you understand?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Haibike's argument for e-bikes? *"Our big message is that the e-bikes segment brings non-cyclists into the cycling world"*

Translation: Huge potential profits available from previously un-tapped market. Haibike follows by saying this-

*"every time you turn a non-cyclist into a cyclist, you get one more driver who is aware of us all on the road" *

That's great and all but 80% of Haibike's sales are off-road specific machines so that claim rings pretty hollow to me. If they put their money where their mouth is I might be more attentive.

I think the article can be summarized in this quote-



> Mtbr: So what about trail designations? Should there be a special e-bike designation that's between human powered and fully motorized?
> KM: We like to consider ourselves a bike period.


I'll give Mr. Miner credit for not mincing words, that's been the end game from the start and the reason is blatantly obvious, altering the definition of "motor vehicle" is an instant win for the e-mtb industry and a major loss for everyone else who has no interest in them.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

And am I the only one growing tired of e-bike proponents making snide comments regarding our (USA) backwoods attitude towards electric bikes and how we will eventually be enlightened and evolve to the superior and elevated European status quo?

No offense to any of Europe but I kind of like the untamed wildness of America's backcountry and hope it stays that way. Celebrate diversity!


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

...........


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## chuckha62 (Jul 11, 2006)

J.B. Weld said:


> And am I the only one growing tired of e-bike proponents making snide comments regarding our (USA) backwoods attitude towards electric bikes and how we will eventually be enlightened and evolve to the superior and elevated European status quo?
> 
> No offense to any of Europe but I kind of like the untamed wildness of America's backcountry and hope it stays that way. Celebrate diversity!


I'm sure there are numerous areas where we could follow a European lead to enlightenment. Just not eBikes.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

They have to sell them in the U.S. they're being legislated out of the dirt in Europe, no more market.


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## Deep Thought (Sep 3, 2012)

life behind bars said:


> They have to sell them in the U.S. they're being legislated out of the dirt in Europe, no more market.


I would like to read more about this new legislation in Europe. Do you have any links?


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## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Here's my best GPS recorded result on an e-bike demo, a Haibike SDuro 5.0, which had a Yamaha 500w motor, was ~55 lbs (glad I was strong enough to lift over a fence), and definitely beat up (clunky fork, like a park rental).









Story goes like this: I was motivated to do a climb, but didn't expect it to crush it that hard. It was extremely FUN to climb. On a normal bike, this is considered a route for anyone interested in elevation gain (and pain). On the ebike, it became somehow a flowy trail, with me thinking of ways to link the switchbacks and turns together smoothly, always trying to put out full power. I wasn't tearing anything up, nor going 20 mph on any upslope (only on parts that were slightly downsloped). After I switched back to my normal bike, I felt way faster than normal. Out of respect, I kept the strava private, but it would've been obvious that I was motor assisted.  Ride stats: 51 miles with 2700 ft climbed.

Honestly feels a lot like a normal bike, except it goes a bit faster. I felt like I got way more practice of proper technique, to handle the bike at speed. I normally ride a HT and a short travel FS bike, and this bike felt more capable on the DH, and had parts better suited to the task. Didn't need to lock up the rear or anything, out of fear I was hitting the limits of the bike. I descended some trails that have become neglected, since people dread the steep climb back out. I felt far fresher through the ride, even though I was riding mid day getting roasted. The sensation of assist took me only 5 minutes to get accustomed to, but it took experience riding varied stuff to get shifting down. It's very hard to get the bike moving from a dismount, if you're too high of a gear and on a steep incline; I just shifted the bike down and prayed for enough assist.

I personally see a lot of potential in the format. The 5.0 didn't have geo that I liked; it could've been longer and slacker. My immediate impression was: screw spending money on carbon, with the idea of making the ride a bit easier. The money spent on something like this actually gives real performance, especially with parts that aren't weight weenie minimalist stuff, instead parts that are well suited to the terrain and are created with robustness in mind.

Seems like a good idea for my area (SW US), and if they get progress getting access in this area, power to them. If anyone's prejudiced about ebikes, why not give them a try and put your beliefs to the test. Heck, I wouldn't mind if they governed the speed to 15 mph for emtb. Cruising at 20 requires some experience and strength to handle. 20 makes more sense on the pavement.

At the demo event, I saw a few overweight people on the ebikes. People seem to think that diet (sugary stuff) is to blame, but it's more a lifestyle thing, especially regarding lack of sustained physical activity (that gets the heart pumping). People are lectured of the dangers of going outside, and given the idea that no single controversial food, drink, or activity is really that bad alone (in moderation), and think their life of comfort is acceptable. If this gets them exercising, I consider that a plus. Obesity causes so many health problems that it'd save tax payers sooooo much in health care that investing in reversing in that trend is a no brainer. I'd especially like if it's used for commuting, not just for recreation, like in Europe.

In the end, MTB is a hard sport, even on an ebike. ebikes are expensive. I don't expect it to be a ticket to allow just anyone to get into mtb. I mostly see the segments near trailheads with motor-doped strava entries, and not the stuff deeper in. I personally didn't get anywhere close to the fastest times on descents, about 70th percentile (better than 70% of times), but I'm a skinny lightweight. I'd like to watch a few races where ebikes are allowed (pedelecs with governors). I'm fitter than an average weekend warrior, and I find the emtb still very attractive for my style of riding. Haibike said they had a 5 year warranty on frame, and 2 on the motor and battery (mfg defects).


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

zooey said:


> Here's my best GPS recorded result on an e-bike demo,


What's your pr without a motor?


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

So the fastest person on the leaderboard averaged 10, and you did 15?

Remember, e-bikes aren't faster!

-Walt


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## ironbrewer (Oct 17, 2012)

Walt said:


> 4: Would Haibike get behind an EU-standard 250W/15mph max power/speed rule for ALL offroad capable e-bikes? Or do you plan to continue offering higher power (with larger batteries/range) setups?
> 
> If you get a chance to ask, FC, that would be awesome.
> 
> -Walt


I think those are all good questions except the increased battery size range. If you would be ok with 250 watt/ 15 mph max, I don't understand the problem with that power max and a longer range??


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## Klurejr (Oct 13, 2006)

zooey said:


> Out of respect, I kept the strava private, but it would've been obvious that I was motor assisted.


I thought Strava had a "eBike" setting now......


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## zooey (Oct 31, 2016)

Oh, so Strava does have an "ebike ride" setting. Never really looked at all the drop down options until now. XD I tried it, but there's no segments at all for it. Changed back to regular ride and clicked Hide from leaderboards, that way I can still see segments (after splitting the ebike demo portion of the ride out).

ebikes give more power, though your own fitness is definitely added into the equation. Anyone on a similar emtb as you would've been left behind if they weren't as fit as you. On climbs it's definitely faster (pretty much cheating, making the hills seem smaller), on more level ground I found myself pedaling more just to get that motor working, but I wasn't setting any PRs on DHs or any section that was faster than the motor's cut-off speed. You will be able to compete with Joe "Netflix all weekend" Shmoe, if he were on a current Haibike emtb and you were a fit rider on a modern mtb.

My PR on that particular segment was 12 minutes. I admittedly never gave it a serious go. Might have to go on a cool morning, seeing how it's already reaching 95F here during the day.

I think I might have actually been on a 250W motor: Haibike | We are ePerformance. Not really sure though... Another website clarifies: 250W nominal, 500W peak. Battery info: at the start it showed a little over 50 mile range on high, according to the LCD display, but was under 20 miles after doing 13 miles exclusively on high.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

zooey said:


> You'll likely be faster, at least on climbs, on an ebike.


Apparently more than twice as fast on climbs. Nothing wrong with that and I got no problem with it as long as it's on legal trails but your your post illustrates that e-bikes aren't as Mr. Miner proclaims "just a bike, period." Clearly they are different.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

J.B. Weld said:


> Apparently more than twice as fast on climbs. Nothing wrong with that and I got no problem with it as long as it's on legal trails but your your post illustrates that e-bikes aren't as Mr. Miner proclaims "just a bike, period." Clearly they are different.


Yes, and both the U.S. Forest Service and the B.L.M. categorize them as different than bicycles.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

life behind bars said:


> Yes, and both the U.S. Forest Service and the B.L.M. categorize them as different than bicycles.


Good for them, I hope it stays that way. A lot of people seem to think a motor is just another upgrade like Eagle or carbon fiber and manufactures (Haibike) promote that idea as well.

I do wonder where people will end up riding all these off road electric bikes that are being marketed and sold though, time will tell.


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## LTZ470 (May 5, 2013)

leeboh said:


> Do you even shred, bro? Bikes don't have motors. E bikes are something else. Motorized. MA rider here, motorized vehicles not allowed on multi use off road trails. Thank goodness. Very clear, motor, no motor. Want me to type slower so you understand?


He wasn't trying to make anyone cry, he was actually answering honestly and openly with a very clear thought process, and can actually think on his own without leeching off someone else...lol...did I type that slow enough?


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## 2wheelfun (Jan 8, 2018)

Looking forward to my Haibike Xduro 7.0 to arrive and see what the range is with my riding style where speed is not that important but survival of my knees is in the mountains of Colorado. You get to a point in life where there are some thing you just don't want to give up due to health issues that are out of your control. I did test ride one prior to ordering and did turn the assist off and peddled just to see what it is like, was not terrible for the small distance I did ride it. I do belief in Murphy's law and want to know the worst if I lost power.


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## justin70 (Sep 17, 2007)

2wheelfun said:


> Looking forward to my Haibike Xduro 7.0 to arrive and see what the range is with my riding style where speed is not that important but survival of my knees is in the mountains of Colorado. You get to a point in life where there are some thing you just don't want to give up due to health issues that are out of your control. I did test ride one prior to ordering and did turn the assist off and peddled just to see what it is like, was not terrible for the small distance I did ride it. I do belief in Murphy's law and want to know the worst if I lost power.


I'm definitely interested in hearing your range, but also your weight, assist setting, elevation gain, and approx how much of the battery % was used for the ride.


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## 2wheelfun (Jan 8, 2018)

justin70 said:


> I'm definitely interested in hearing your range, but also your weight, assist setting, elevation gain, and approx how much of the battery % was used for the ride.


I just received my Haibike yesterday and getting it ready to ride and cant tell you yet on range, I hope to have some results in about a week. I am hoping to do rides of 30-60 miles, most will be less. I am planning on continuing my riding style of lea-surly






and having some fun in technical sections and want to do my fair share peddling, not into the high speed stuff anymore, had a lifetime of abusing this body and it lets me know it. I also have seen reports all over the spectrum on range and I think that has more to do with peoples riding style and how much they want to put into it. Just like mileage stickers on cars, you can get great mileage or you can get terrible mileage, its all about how you drive it.


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## highroad 2 (Jan 24, 2017)

I rode my Bosch CX Haibike, Xduro 7.0, F and R suspension, 3.0 tires, yesterday for 15 miles in the tour mode only.
Ended the ride with 1 bar out of 5 remaining.
2600 feet climb, moderate non technical singletrack, took 1 hour 25 min.. with several very muddy sections.
I doubt that in Eco mode I would get more than 22-25 miles

I find Eco mode to be just about right for riding with advanced non assist riders.
When riding alone Tour mode makes the ride more interesting for me.

I will be curious what your results will be


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

highroad 2 said:


> I rode my Bosch CX Haibike, Xduro 7.0, F and R suspension, 3.0 tires, yesterday for 15 miles in the tour mode only.
> Ended the ride with 1 bar out of 5 remaining.
> 2600 feet climb, moderate non technical singletrack, took 1 hour 25 min.. with several very muddy sections.
> I doubt that in Eco mode I would get more than 22-25 miles
> ...


I don't have much time on Bosch equipped bikes, but on a Specialized/Brose machine, I did a nearly identical amount of climbing on max 100% Turbo mode with 10% juice remaining by the end of the ride.

These days my max setting is dialed back to 75%.

On the Brose, assist tapers off ever so slightly as cadence increases. So maintaining higher cadence helps conserve energy. I'm sure it's similar with the Bosch, as to prevent overassisting and causing you to overspin.


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## ALimon (Oct 12, 2017)

leeboh said:


> Do you even shred, bro? Bikes don't have motors. E bikes are something else. Motorized. MA rider here, motorized vehicles not allowed on multi use off road trails. Thank goodness. Very clear, motor, no motor. Want me to type slower so you understand?


Do you even shred bro? Want me to type slower? We know you're anti e bikes, we know you're from MA, you seem to tell us over n over. lol Why so many hostile comments? Chill out!


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## EricTheDood (Sep 22, 2017)

ALimon said:


> Do you even shred bro? Want me to type slower? We know you're anti e bikes, we know you're from MA, you seem to tell us over n over. lol Why so many hostile comments? Chill out!


Meh, let him post. Folks who are emotional and unreasonable may win a few battles but almost always lose the war. The more unreasonable the naysayers are, the better it will be for responsible e-MTBers.


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