# Heading up hill in a rock garden



## Rocklion (Jul 25, 2010)

So, I nabbed my first rock gardens last night and had a helluva a lot of fun. Using a lot of tips I had seen before, I was able to keep a good steady speed on the downhills and skim over most of them.

But then I found out something I had never thought about.

Most of the videos and everything else I watched talked about going downhill on rock gardens. I didn't know a dang thing about going up them. It got kind of brutal. I'd go down these things with some good speed and then as soon as I got to the uphills I'd end up having to do hike a bike because I'd end up trapped in some rocks or just slowed down so much that complete exhaustion was setting in on the climbs.

I know one thing I definitely need to work on is my climbing fitness. I'll have to start looking for some exercises for endurance and strength. But as far as technique, I have none. Any tips?

Also, anyone have any ideas on where I might be able to look up some vids on you tube? Key words I should use?


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## bad news (Jul 12, 2008)

The most important thing for conquering super tech climbs is having the engine to put in repeated explosive accelerations and the ability to turn a big enough gear that you can generate speed to overcome obstacles. Once you can do that the technique differences aren't really different from anything else...unweighting or lifting the front over things, shifting weight, choosing a good line etc. I would say the biggest difference is learning how and where to find traction, when you can throttle it, and when you have to soft pedal or ease up over something. On some obstacles you will find that you pretty much have to coast up them because for whatever reason the traction isn't there to slowly pedal up (i.e. super steep to vertical rock faces and such). This means generating a lot of speed before reaching them and using your momentum. Keep practicing. Hit the hills hard and try to keep your speed up. It can help to get out with an experienced rider who can show you a few things about line choice.

Also remember, the first time you see something is the worst. It will never look harder then it did the first time you saw it.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

^^^ Agree with that. Technical climbs are about the hardest thing there is. They quickly push the limits of power, endurance and technical skill. So keep at it. You'll find yourself cleaning some of those places, getting further on the ones that spank you.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

yeah, great advice so far. I would just emphasize that sometimes it's about momentum. Getting your speed up in advance of a rough section, knowing how to get back on the gas to build up momentum after a slow down, and carrying speed through rough sections even when you're going uphill. Another thing that helps me (and annoys the people I ride with) is I practice trackstands all the time. Any time I stop my bike, I see how long I can trackstand for. When it comes to a tricky spot in a trail, I have a bit of extra time to gain my balance and get back on the power. Plus the trackstand helps your balance everywhere. 

Practice makes perfect, so just get back at it.


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## ooctrl (Aug 7, 2006)

*just to add what bad news said....*

I sometimes find that the best line isn't always straight up with speed on a tech up. Sometimes a quick s turn climb can help pick a better line and help smooth it out a little.

ps bad news: The Ardent kicks a$$!


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Rocklion said:


> So, I nabbed my first rock gardens last night and had a helluva a lot of fun. Using a lot of tips I had seen before, I was able to keep a good steady speed on the downhills and skim over most of them.
> 
> But then I found out something I had never thought about.
> 
> ...


You have realized that speed and momentum are required going down hill..

Guess what they are also required going uphill.

So getting a bigger engine will always help.

However practice riding down the rock garden as slow as possible, practice all the moves neccessary to get down. Cause it is likely be the speed you will require going up the hill.

Then reverse it.


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## Rocklion (Jul 25, 2010)

That's one thing I was trying to do, is get enough speed to go up the hill. But as soon as I'd start hitting the rocks on the uphill, I'd get slowed down by them.
I think one thing I've read so far is that I'm gearing down too low when I'm heading up the hills. Going to easy on the gearing. Just reading the comments, I'm thinking if I'm still at a pretty high gearing, if I hit the pedals a few times while I still have my momentum, it could possibly help keep that momentum heading up the hill?
Right tactic?


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

Rocklion said:


> That's one thing I was trying to do, is get enough speed to go up the hill. But as soon as I'd start hitting the rocks on the uphill, I'd get slowed down by them.
> I think one thing I've read so far is that I'm gearing down too low when I'm heading up the hills. Going to easy on the gearing. Just reading the comments, I'm thinking if I'm still at a pretty high gearing, if I hit the pedals a few times while I still have my momentum, it could possibly help keep that momentum heading up the hill?
> Right tactic?


It's probably a good start, each tech section is going to be different so it will only help you to figure out all sorts of ways to get around it. But in general, you're right. I find that pushing a slightly bigger gear will be useful more frequently than spinning away. You just don't get the power needed to get up and over things if you have too low a gear.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bad news said:


> The most important thing for conquering super tech climbs is having the engine to put in repeated explosive accelerations and *the ability to turn a big enough gear that you can generate speed to overcome obstacles.*


I think this is key and something I still struggle with in this situation. My theory is that for some of this type of work you actually should be in a gear that seems TOO HIGH. You need to be in a high enough gear so that one or two cranks will get you over the obstacle. If you aren't you can't get the added momentum you need to BOTH keep traveling at a speed sufficient to stay upright AND clear the obstacle.

Think about it this way... how many times have you been climbing some really loose **** and for whatever reason (lost your line, hit another obstacle, just plain gassed out) you had to stop. Now you are in a very low gear and when you try to get started you can't because from the top of the crank to the bottom moves you forward like 6" or 8", not enough momentum to keep yourself balanced to continue pedaling. This is made worse if there even the smallest of rocks or obstacles to get over from the stationary position.

That's my current theory so if I'm totally off-base let me know so I don't wast too much of my time trying to make it work :thumbsup:


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

big0mike said:


> I think this is key and something I still struggle with in this situation. My theory is that for some of this type of work you actually should be in a gear that seems TOO HIGH. You need to be in a high enough gear so that one or two cranks will get you over the obstacle. If you aren't you can't get the added momentum you need to BOTH keep traveling at a speed sufficient to stay upright AND clear the obstacle.
> 
> Think about it this way... how many times have you been climbing some really loose **** and for whatever reason (lost your line, hit another obstacle, just plain gassed out) you had to stop. Now you are in a very low gear and when you try to get started you can't because from the top of the crank to the bottom moves you forward like 6" or 8", not enough momentum to keep yourself balanced to continue pedaling. This is made worse if there even the smallest of rocks or obstacles to get over from the stationary position.
> 
> That's my current theory so if I'm totally off-base let me know so I don't wast too much of my time trying to make it work :thumbsup:


Yeah the bigger gear is fine....

But to figure out what gear you need....you need to know the minimum speed you have to maintain.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

jeffscott said:


> Yeah the bigger gear is fine.... But to figure out what gear you need....you need to know the minimum speed you have to maintain.


Yeah. And if you are like the guy above that does "trackstands" (which I assume is just balancing stopped) you have an edge 'cause you can probably get away with less momentum due to your balancing skills.


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## AndrwSwitch (Nov 8, 2007)

Climbing a rock garden is not necessarily so different from climbing something rooty. If you can lift your front wheel with drivetrain torque, things become much, much easier. Then, rather than plowing into obstacles and hoping you roll over them, you can just lift your wheel and put it on top of whatever it is. A little bit of a hop gets your rear wheel up.

When the obstacles are closer together, it can be hard to do them one at a time that way. In that case, it helps to have some speed, as others have said. Being in a high enough gear to make meaningful progress out of the saddle is helpful - you can often make more progress on those climbs if you're standing, and able to move your weight off a wheel that's getting more resistance. Then, see above technique. Too high a gear can be a killer too - I think that cleaning uphill technical sections is one of the defining skills for a XC rider.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

Alot of pretty good advice above

one thing to work on is canting.

When your pedaling you lean the bike away from the ground to prevent pedal strikes.

IE left down, you lean the bike right. Right foot down, lean the bike left.


Another thing I notice. I started riding SS part time 2 years ago. Since then my torque on both my SSs and Geared bike has become much better for cleaning hard uphill technical sections. 

SS are fun in general as a stand alone bike but a game upper for people who ride gears as well.


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## Keepthechange (May 18, 2010)

And remember, where theres a will theres a way.... but that doesn't always mean theres a way... sometimes the best line is to hoof it


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

Sorry Josh, I would say that canting is only applicable in very rare circumstances. The added couple centimeters of clearance is hardly going to make up for the huge energy wasting maneuvers it takes to rock your body and bike back and forth. Large upper body movements only result in minor elevation changes through the pedals.

Maybe a better maneuver to discuss is taking half pedal strokes or coasting in sections to get pedal stroke timing correct to handle an upcoming feature. Keeping your head up and knowing that you won't be able to take a good hard pedal stroke into a feature will give you some extra time to plan how you're going to be able to power through something.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

zebrahum said:


> Sorry Josh, I would say that canting is only applicable in very rare circumstances. The added couple centimeters of clearance is hardly going to make up for the huge energy wasting maneuvers it takes to rock your body and bike back and forth. Large upper body movements only result in minor elevation changes through the pedals.
> 
> Maybe a better maneuver to discuss is taking half pedal strokes or coasting in sections to get pedal stroke timing correct to handle an upcoming feature. Keeping your head up and knowing that you won't be able to take a good hard pedal stroke into a feature will give you some extra time to plan how you're going to be able to power through something.


your kinda of right and apparently know me.

I hate the my trails are rocky than your trail arguement, but at least in SLC there isnt much that is that rocky that you actually ride up other parts of utah yes but its rarely the jagged stuff you see here in the pa and WV. We have stuff in the east that you ride up that resemble the lower section of the now defunct LCC trail.


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## zebrahum (Jun 29, 2005)

BushwackerinPA said:


> your kinda of right and apparently know me.
> 
> I hate the my trails are rocky than your trail arguement, but at least in SLC there isnt much that is that rocky that you actually ride up other parts of utah yes but its rarely the jagged stuff you see here in the pa and WV. We have stuff in the east that you ride up that resemble the lower section of the now defunct LCC trail.


Justin, I ski out of control constantly; much the same as I bike.


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## BushwackerinPA (Aug 10, 2006)

zebrahum said:


> Justin, I ski out of control constantly; much the same as I bike.


Justin S?



ha

well I agree with you for where your at that canting isnt needed that much.


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## The Soleutator (Aug 3, 2010)

Pedal strikes and losing balance by leaning to far back often send me off the bike, and walking until I can find a place to try again. As a new mountain biker, I very quickly learned that brute force alone won't get me up some things. I'm learning that balance, pedal position, and picking a good path all play roles, which I guess is why they call it technical.


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## bad news (Jul 12, 2008)

big0mike said:


> That's my current theory so if I'm totally off-base let me know so I don't wast too much of my time trying to make it work :thumbsup:


You're catching on.

The big thing is to put yourself in a position where you can accelerate if need be. For the guys who can really spin it up this might mean that they are hitting the hill in a low gear already turning 90 rpm. If you are more diesel and less two stroke it'll mean that you'll need to come in a gear or two higher and at a lower cadence. If you're riding a hardtail running a gear or two higher and standing the whole way could be your best bet as well, as you won't have rear suspension helping you keep the rear tire hooked up. Either way, running more gear than you have to is probably just unnecessary stress on your knees (unless you're a beast and just shred up the hill moto-style at top speed. In which case you don't need to read this post.)



ooctrl said:


> ps bad news: The Ardent kicks a$$!


Glad you like it. I think it is a good tire for around here.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bad news said:


> You're catching on.


I figured I was pretty spot on but you never know. We can talk ourselves into believing some pretty dumb stuff now and again.

My problem, especially with one section of T100 I'm fighting, is the uphill is long and loose so by the time I get to the small section that requires standing up and/or lifting your front tire on top of an obstacle I'm already gassed. Not much is gonna help me there except to continue doing it. Eventually the strength will be there...


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## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

big0mike said:


> I figured I was pretty spot on but you never know. We can talk ourselves into believing some pretty dumb stuff now and again.
> 
> My problem, especially with one section of T100 I'm fighting, is the uphill is long and loose so by the time I get to the small section that requires standing up and/or lifting your front tire on top of an obstacle I'm already gassed. Not much is gonna help me there except to continue doing it. Eventually the strength will be there...


Go easy on the easier parts so you can go hard on the hard parts....

Often people go far harder than they have to and blow up way to early because of it.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

jeffscott said:


> Go easy on the easier parts so you can go hard on the hard parts....
> 
> Often people go far harder than they have to and blow up way to early because of it.


Certainly. The trails I ride I know fairly well so I know when the extra momentum is going to help me clear something. And, I know when the extra momentum isn't going to do squat as I head uphill so I don't push the flatter sections as much.


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