# Tour de France, TDF, Doping (mega merged thread)



## lobolator (Oct 29, 2006)

I know it's a roadie thing, but when I was little that's all there was (officially, the road that is). 
But seriously, 1999 Mtn Biking's World Champ Micahel Rasmussen is currently the rightful owner of the Yellow and Polka-dot (King of the Mtns) jerseys! WOW!
Let's hear it for mtn bikers kicking some roadie a$$!!!:thumbsup: 
Oops, we should be quiet, the kids at roadbikereview might hear us. 
Just goes to show ya, we can spin pretty well, when we're not concentrating so hard on running over things like logs, rocks, and dogs(lol, I love dogs you PETA nuts!).


----------



## P-Funk (Jan 16, 2004)

I always liked Rasmussen in the Tour. He always seemed to be vying for the King of The Hill crown. Sadly, I haven't watched The Tour since Lance retired. Maybe I'll switch it on tomorrow.


----------



## Acme54321 (Oct 8, 2003)

I think it's alot more interesting without Lance.


----------



## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

At least Lance gave everybody a focal point, plus he was the one guy whose life story we knew so well. Without him, it's still the Tour, but it's harder not having the heroic American underdog (cancer survivor) to root so hard for.

But knowing there's a mountain biker? Okay, that's who I want to win :-D


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

The reason the MTBR moderators made the TDF section for posting was for just this reason....

Having a spoiler in the subject similar to yours is pretty rookie (true, there is more then one former MTB champ in the tour) but cmon.

Wonder how long it takes for this thread to be relocated 



lobolator said:


> I know it's a roadie thing, but when I was little that's all there was (officially, the road that is).
> But seriously, 1999 Mtn Biking's World Champ Micahel Rasmussen is currently the rightful owner of the Yellow and Polka-dot (King of the Mtns) jerseys! WOW!
> Let's hear it for mtn bikers kicking some roadie a$$!!!:thumbsup:
> Oops, we should be quiet, the kids at roadbikereview might hear us.
> Just goes to show ya, we can spin pretty well, when we're not concentrating so hard on running over things like logs, rocks, and dogs(lol, I love dogs you PETA nuts!).


----------



## lobolator (Oct 29, 2006)

Sorry for not "knowing" every nook and cranny of the website.
I officially bow down to your unrookieness and thank you for heads up on the TdF section.
I'm still psyched a mtn biker is kickin some butt though.


----------



## redwarrior (Apr 12, 2007)

Jeezus 006-007, Rasmussen's been leading since Sunday... not exactly a spoiler... 

Red


----------



## mtnpat (Jan 12, 2004)

lobolator said:


> I'm still psyched a mtn biker is kickin some butt though.


Cadel Evans is showing some good form also.

It's too bad these guys (mountain bike racers) have to turn to the road to make a decent salary.


----------



## ebxtreme (Jan 6, 2004)

mtnpat said:


> Cadel Evans is showing some good form also.
> 
> It's too bad these guys (mountain bike racers) have to turn to the road to make a decent salary.


No doubt. Cadel's looking super strong and still in contention for the GC. Imagine if these guys were still on the mt. bike. I believe Roland Green went to ride road when he was essentially in his prime as well. 

BTW, Rasmussen's one skinny mofo.....


----------



## Hollywood (Dec 30, 2003)

mtnpat said:


> It's too bad these guys (mountain bike racers) have to turn to the road to make a decent salary.


too bad??? maybe they love it. maybe its just the natural progression of their sport and a chance to compete at a much bigger level. Lets not forget Floyd was a huge mountain bike racer - and look where that got him 

I'm loving the tour so far. Lance is great 'n all, but after 7 years of "looks like Lance won another one" halfway through the Tour it kinda kills the suspense.


----------



## mtnpat (Jan 12, 2004)

Hollywood said:


> too bad??? maybe they love it. maybe its just the natural progression of their sport and a chance to compete at a much bigger level.


I'd just like to think that these guys would rather be racing mountain bikes if they could make the same money.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

apologies lobolator - I came across more harsh then I intended to (this is why I should not be allowed to post on MTBR while enjoying a few glasses of scotch....)



lobolator said:


> Sorry for not "knowing" every nook and cranny of the website.
> I officially bow down to your unrookieness and thank you for heads up on the TdF section.
> I'm still psyched a mtn biker is kickin some butt though.


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

lobolator said:


> Just goes to show ya, we can spin pretty well,


No.............._Rasmussen_ can spin pretty well. The rest of you average grubby mountain bikers pedal in squares in comparison - unless you wanna put in 20,000 miles per year for a few years while practising.


----------



## lubes17319 (Dec 19, 2005)

006_007 said:


> ..... enjoying a few glasses of scotch....)


Did you bring enough for ALL of us?
I'm feeling kinda dehydrated.....


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

I have never turned anybody down for a drink if they ask for one :thumbsup:



lubes17319 said:


> Did you bring enough for ALL of us?
> I'm feeling kinda dehydrated.....


----------



## aword4you (Jul 25, 2005)

The Tour's been great so far this year. Agree as below that Chicken's been in yellow for a few days now; not exactly a spoiler. 

I started watching in 05 during Lance's last Tour. Still have been some GREAT stages so far this year. I haven't watched cycling as much as I did last year, but hey... never knowing who will be allowed to ride and who won't is always tons of fun :thumbsup: 

Really did enjoy the Alps, though.


----------



## pedaling pyrate (Nov 30, 2004)

*Thus the reason for his nickname*



ebxtreme said:


> BTW, Rasmussen's one skinny mofo.....


The chicken!


----------



## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

Hollywood said:


> I'm loving the tour so far. Lance is great 'n all, but after 7 years of "looks like Lance won another one" halfway through the Tour it kinda kills the suspense.


I watched most of the tour last year, but the suspense of Floyd's disqualification & subsequent appeals wore me out. I don't have a taste for it any more. I'd rather ride (off-road).


----------



## aword4you (Jul 25, 2005)

pedaling pyrate said:


> The chicken!


He said in an interview yesterday they call him the Chicken because he resembles a Danish cartoon character called "Chicken".


----------



## DirtFlirt (May 21, 2007)

I know that MTBing has helped my road riding and vise versa. I think that MTBing gives you strength and road the endurance so together that makes and awesome rider. That is probably why Rasmussen is in yellow and polka dot. 

And I think that the tour is different without Lance, not better or worse. It really opens the field for other riders and makes people look at all of them and not just Lance. I have learned so much more for this tour then any other (maybe i'm just paying more attention)


----------



## Kris (Jun 15, 2004)

I read not too long ago that Rasmussen is going to head back to the MTB this winter to try to get a spot on the Danish olympic team for 2008. Wouldn't it be wild to be a Tour winner one year and a MTB gold medalist the next? Alas I think the 100km of time trialing is going to do him in...


----------



## nrs_air (Apr 29, 2006)

It is pretty awesome. I bet most of the guys in the TdF have at least some mtn bike or 'cross experience. They don't get freakishly good handling skills by riding on the road alone.

Here's a pic of Rasmussen...no wonder the dude can climb


----------



## athalliah (Dec 9, 2005)

I'm just kinda bummed to know that there is doping in pro mtbing.

Eh.


----------



## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

athalliah said:


> I'm just kinda bummed to know that there is doping in pro mtbing.
> 
> Eh.


Hell, there's doping in amateur racing/sports...


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

athalliah said:


> I'm just kinda bummed to know that there is doping in pro mtbing.


You're terminally naive. It's in every sport you can think of, right from highschool on up. Come to think about it, there's dope takers that have never played a sport in their lives. Eh?


----------



## ThrashNY (May 18, 2005)

nrs_air said:


> It is pretty awesome. I bet most of the guys in the TdF have at least some mtn bike or 'cross experience. They don't get freakishly good handling skills by riding on the road alone.
> 
> Here's a pic of Rasmussen...no wonder the dude can climb


That's friggin' disgusting....anorexia bulimia, Baby!!! So unhealthy.


----------



## athalliah (Dec 9, 2005)

Mike T. said:


> You're terminally naive. It's in every sport you can think of, right from highschool on up. Come to think about it, there's dope takers that have never played a sport in their lives. Eh?


Terminally naive? Was I to list every sport I could think of where there is doping? That would take a while, be off topic, and no one cares. And I was being sarcastic.

But thanks for insulting me.


----------



## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

*Wimpy roadies.*

Alexander Vinokourov crashed a week ago in the Tour de France. Since then He's raced 700 miles and climbed about 30,000 feet with 60 loosely stitched sutures in his arms and legs so he can still bend them. He's still considered a threat for the overall despite this. Also, pain medication is forbidden during racing, nothing stronger than ibuprofen is permitted so he's probably not sleeping much and sticking to the sheets. Tough SOB.


----------



## todd_freeride (Aug 9, 2005)

wow man, I'd be sitting at home with all those wounds. props to the guy!


----------



## BunnV (Sep 7, 2005)

*Yep, pretty wimpy alright!*



Rivet said:


> Alexander Vinokourov crashed a week ago in the Tour de France. Since then He's raced 700 miles and climbed about 30,000 feet with 60 loosely stitched sutures in his arms and legs so he can still bend them. He's still considered a threat for the overall despite this. Also, pain medication is forbidden during racing, nothing stronger than ibuprofen is permitted so he's probably not sleeping much and sticking to the sheets. Tough SOB.


Yep, these guys are pretty wimpy! NOT :nono: 
Tough SOB is right! Even if he didn't crash, just finishing the tour is an amazing feat, let alone competing for the overall win!!!!
I'd bet that 98% of the people that disparage the tour riders on these forums couldn't even finish one stage, let alone the whole race!


----------



## perttime (Aug 26, 2005)

I might get myself a road bike at some stage.
Race on the road? No way!
If you crash in a road race, it is usually at high speed on an unforgiving surface and, if you are any good, there's about 50 other riders that will pile up on you within the next couple of seconds.


----------



## Evil Patrick (Sep 13, 2004)

I'll bet he glows in the dark - what, with all that EPO leaking out.

Tour de Enhanced


----------



## crisillo (Jul 3, 2004)

auch!


----------



## EABiker (Jun 24, 2004)

perttime said:


> I might get myself a road bike at some stage.
> Race on the road? No way!
> If you crash in a road race, it is usually at high speed on an unforgiving surface and, if you are any good, there's about 50 other riders that will pile up on you within the next couple of seconds.


Yeah, but at least you don't have to worry about grinding squirrel poop into the open wound!:eekster:


----------



## *rt* (Jan 15, 2004)

yeah, what a bunch of leg shavin', lycra wearin' sissies. 



go Vino.

rt


----------



## btadlock (Oct 3, 2005)

Evil Patrick said:


> I'll bet he glows in the dark - what, with all that EPO leaking out.
> 
> Tour de Enhanced


sigh, there is always one in the crowd 

regardless of his chemical status, he continues to ride and ride hard after sustaining significant injuries that would have 90% of the world off the bike for weeks.
I know that I have stayed off for far less injury.

BTW, no one has tested positive so far this year.


----------



## forkboy (Apr 20, 2004)

*rt* said:


> yeah, what a bunch of leg shavin', lycra wearin' sissies.


Dammit - Why didn't somebody tell me that I was supposed to shave my ass too?


----------



## Evil Patrick (Sep 13, 2004)

btadlock said:


> sigh, there is always one in the crowd


Really? You think there's only one rider that's on EPO?

:skep:


----------



## Jessep (Dec 1, 2004)

Remember when Hamilton broke his collarbone in the beginning, and raced the rest of the tour with the bones grinding together? He ground the tops off of his teeth clenching them from the pain. 

I'm way tougher than those little ninnies.


----------



## btadlock (Oct 3, 2005)

Evil Patrick said:


> Really? You think there's only one rider that's on EPO?
> 
> :skep:


Ok Evil, I guess I was bit too obtuse......

the one in the crowd I was referring to, was the person that jumps to the possible doping of the riders........


----------



## btadlock (Oct 3, 2005)

btadlock said:


> Ok Evil, I guess I was bit too obtuse......
> 
> the one in the crowd I was referring to, was the person that jumps to the possible doping of the riders........


 so, the one in the crowd that I was referring to was you.


----------



## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

*(mini-stage 11 spoiler at bottom)*



Evil Patrick said:


> I'll bet he glows in the dark - what, with all that EPO leaking out.
> 
> Tour de Enhanced


(F)lame attempt...

Seems like the OP was discussing a crash, and a subsequent rally by a pretty talented rider - not the state of doping, drugs, and politics.

_And what a day yesterday! Poor, poor Moreau... Astana was effin brilliant!_


----------



## rs3o (Jan 12, 2004)

btadlock said:


> BTW, no one has tested positive so far this year.


Uh, Sinkewitz? Not for EPO but for testosterone.


----------



## btadlock (Oct 3, 2005)

rs3o said:


> Uh, Sinkewitz? Not for EPO but for testosterone.


hmmm, that is odd, as when I posted that, I was watching the Tour coverage on VS, and the Rassmussen missed test, when Phil Leggatt reported that no one had tested positive so far this year.
Maybe there is some distiction between foreign substances and naturally occuring substances.
.
Ok, I just looked it up, Sinkewitz's failed test was before the tour, I can only assume what Leggatt was talking about was the testing conducted during the tour.
Thanks for the correction.
Never trust Leggatt, as he will lead you astray


----------



## matteus (Mar 27, 2005)

I'm just wondering where his new bib is? Or maybe the air feels good on that nasty road rash...

I ride road too, and I've thought a few times to myself, zipping down a curvy road at 35+, "what would happen if a crash..." ouch. Kudos to that rider, I know I'd be out. 

matt


----------



## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

btadlock said:


> regardless of his chemical status, he continues to ride and ride hard after sustaining significant injuries that would have 90% of the world off the bike for weeks.
> I know that I have stayed off for far less injury.
> 
> .


You assume that all they take is stuff that makes their legs and lungs bigger. Have you heard of Pot Belge? There are a lot of other "recreational" drugs at use too.
"Actually, it's a bit more potent than that. "Belgian mix", as it is generally translated, is a combination of amphetamines, cocaine and heroin. It's a cheap and dirty performance-enhancing drug for cyclists."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wheels/story/0,,1812979,00.html

I could ride with a broken collar bone and grind my teeth to the nerve too if I was all pepped up on that stuff. hmmm

Oh well, I say go everyone til you're busted. Rasmussen has a lead that is going to be hard to overcome if he has refined his TT skills at all. The way he powered down the descent the other day makes me think he has. Now if we could just figure out where he trains while he is in Mexico.


----------



## jd3 (Nov 17, 2005)

*Is he a doper?*

http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/news/articles/12851.0.html

Looks like no Olympics for the chicken

http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/news/articles/12842.0.html


----------



## aword4you (Jul 25, 2005)

rs3o said:


> Uh, Sinkewitz? Not for EPO but for testosterone.


Sinkewitz crashed out of the Tour (hit an older gentleman on his way back to his hotel), and had his A sample test positive for testosterone from JUNE 8, right after a team training camp. He didn't test positive during the Tour.


----------



## JimC. (Dec 30, 2003)

*Square wheels? We're smarter, that's why*



Mike T. said:


> No.............._Rasmussen_ can spin pretty well. The rest of you average grubby mountain bikers pedal in squares in comparison - unless you wanna put in 20,000 miles per year for a few years while practising.


We mtb'rs know how to handle them cobblestones; _everyone_ knows round wheels are flawed. Jim


----------



## Mike T. (Dec 30, 2003)

JimC. said:


> We mtb'rs know how to handle them cobblestones; _everyone_ knows round wheels are flawed. Jim


Noooooooo I didn't mean square wheezles.


----------



## zzsean (Nov 3, 2004)

ThrashNY said:


> That's friggin' disgusting....anorexia bulimia, Baby!!! So unhealthy.


Somehow I doubt he is unhealthy.


----------



## LyNx (Oct 26, 2004)

The big question is, will he F* it all up in the time trial or has he actually spent some time and practiced riding that TT bike so he know's how to handle it and not crash 3 times like in '95 :skep: Would be a sad way to loose the Tour


----------



## lobolator (Oct 29, 2006)

He's just has to hang on tomorrow. Mountains to follow, where he can crush the contenders, if he doesn't crash. 
And unhealthy, if doping counts then yeah, otherwise just skinny. I'm not that skinny, but maybe after 12 days of the Tour I would be! Burning how many calories a ride???


----------



## RenderedUseless (Mar 4, 2007)

That man just turned over the TT of his life! Holding Cadel by a minute.


----------



## Snowpug (Apr 23, 2007)

Great TT today for sure.


----------



## Necromancer (Jul 4, 2007)

I think the stopping of the rain and drying up of the roads helped him.


----------



## SCC (Jan 20, 2007)

lobolator said:


> I know it's a roadie thing, but when I was little that's all there was (officially, the road that is).
> But seriously, 1999 Mtn Biking's World Champ Micahel Rasmussen is currently the rightful owner of the Yellow and Polka-dot (King of the Mtns) jerseys! WOW!
> Let's hear it for mtn bikers kicking some roadie a$$!!!:thumbsup:
> Oops, we should be quiet, the kids at roadbikereview might hear us.
> Just goes to show ya, we can spin pretty well, when we're not concentrating so hard on running over things like logs, rocks, and dogs(lol, I love dogs you PETA nuts!).


You can bet these guys didn't get there by riding their MTBs 3 or 4 days a week! Thousands of miles on a road bike and a couple of dozen on an Mtb every year is what it would take! Mtbs are fun road bikes are for fitness.


----------



## Zaphod (Feb 2, 2004)

Vino kicked some serious ass today. word.


----------



## eggraid101 (Mar 13, 2006)

Jessep said:


> Remember when Hamilton broke his collarbone in the beginning, and raced the rest of the tour with the bones grinding together? He ground the tops off of his teeth clenching them from the pain.


I hate to nitpick, but there's no way he ground his teeth significantly over the 3 weeks of the race. I bet he had some wicked-sore jaw muscles, but any significant grinding happens over a looooong time. They should proabably include bite-guards in the team kit for these stage races! Those guys are some of the most strong willed peeps around for sure.


----------



## edemtbs (Apr 12, 2005)

Zaphod said:


> Vino kicked some serious ass today. word.


Yup, he sure did.

Who knows?

Pro road cycling = sad state of affairs.


----------



## Evil Patrick (Sep 13, 2004)

edemtbs said:


> Yup, he sure did.
> 
> Who knows?
> 
> Pro road cycling = sad state of affairs.


Who knows? We know.



*Tour de Enhanced!*


----------



## slip (Nov 1, 2006)

it's weird, though. that's the same way that tyler hamilton was busted - using someone else's blood. given how much easier and safer it is to use your own stored blood, it seems completely idiotic that vino would risk that. especially considering that khazakstan gave astana a 10 year sign. crazy stuff.


----------



## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

*TDF - I Give Up?!!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!*

I used to LOVE watching and discussing the TDF, but after the continued drug BS,, with Vinokourov and his team and Rasmussen's BS.
I am giving up.
I am that frustrated and angry at the sport.
Brian
:madmax: :madman:  :bluefrown: :sad: :???: :nonod:


----------



## pedalitup (May 30, 2007)

He shoulda used "chicken" blood.


----------



## Trajan (Feb 9, 2004)

People may not like Lemond, but he is right. I bet the same thing is happening in MTB but no one cares.


----------



## Clutch (Apr 26, 2005)

That's too bad for Kloden. He should have avoided Vino after what happened at Tmobile.

As for Rasmussen, I sure hope he doesn't get DQ'd for anything. That competition between him and Contador is really entertaining.


----------



## catch22 (Apr 30, 2004)

Contador has been damn fun to watch, hoping he blows Rasmussen away tomorrow. I'd like to cheer on Rasmussen due to his mtb background but that whole situation is really sketchy. I mean, with all the negative publicity and increased scrutiny over the testing, how does he just blow off doing what is required to compete? Too bad about Vino, they're really making a laughing stock of the whole thing. Regardless, I'll still be up early tomorrow watching for the entertainment value, I'd like to think they are all clean but know that's never going to happen, the dopers will always be a step ahead of the testers and we'll never know who is truely clean in *any* sport.

So, do Evans and Kirchen get credit for stage wins? That would pull Evans :20 closer to Rasmussen in the GC.


----------



## Whafe (May 27, 2004)

It is sad, I dont think anyone is surprised at anything that goes down in the TDF.......

It just doesnt have the hype it once did...Seems no one really cares..

Is the TDF just so hard now that pro cyclists feel they cannot do it without taking enhancements etc.............??


----------



## Dave. (Apr 12, 2004)

Remember last year when we heard the news that Floyd had tested positive and how much that hurt?

This Vino news is gonna hurt the sport in an even bigger way. Not good ... not good at all.

Although I hate riding my road bike in comparison to my MTB, I've been a big TDF fan for the last 4 years. This news is the first I've heard that's really making me question why I should continue to be interested in it.

Not good at all


----------



## bingemtbr (Apr 1, 2004)

I'm out as well. Sure is fun to watch and blow a few hours on a Sat/Sun morning...not anymore. I spent my Sunday morning cheering for an effing cheater.  :angry: :stupidroadies:


----------



## kattywhumpus (Dec 27, 2003)

most, if not all professional sports involve some form of cheating.....cycling is no different...


----------



## btadlock (Oct 3, 2005)

*Given all the Landis issues....*

that continue still with the arbitration, I was hoping that this would be a "clean" year for the Tour.
Granted I was a bit concerned when the new broke about Sinkewitz, but hey, that was before the tour......
and then they guy I had picked, Rasmussen, comes up with the out-of-country, out-of-contact , missed tests, not a positive, but still odd.....
Now, with Vinokourov testing positive, after what I considered to be heroic efforts following his crash, I am completely disgusted.

If it weren't for getting the key word to enter the Saab sweepstakes, I would quit watching. :thumbsup:


----------



## superlightracer (Feb 11, 2004)

bingemtbr said:


> I'm out as well. Sure is fun to watch and blow a few hours on a Sat/Sun morning...not anymore. I spent my Sunday morning cheering for an effing cheater.  :angry: :stupidroadies:


If the cash incentives were bigger it would be just as bad in the MTB world. Filip Meirhaeghe ring a bell?


----------



## tomimcmillar (Oct 27, 2005)

Whafe said:


> It is sad, I dont think anyone is surprised at anything that goes down in the TDF.......
> 
> It just doesnt have the hype it once did...Seems no one really cares..
> 
> Is the TDF just so hard now that pro cyclists feel they cannot do it without taking enhancements etc.............??


uhmmm, not just now, always has been, from day 1.


----------



## mootsguy (Oct 14, 2005)

bingemtbr said:


> I'm out as well. Sure is fun to watch and blow a few hours on a Sat/Sun morning...not anymore. I spent my Sunday morning cheering for an effing cheater.  :angry: :stupidroadies:


Makes you wonder how completely stupid these guys are for shooting the golden goose in the ass.


----------



## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

There's only one sure way to keep it fair....let them take whatever drugs they want to take. If they want to kill themselves, that's their business....phuck 'em.


----------



## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

kattywhumpus said:


> most, if not all professional sports involve some form of cheating.....cycling is no different...


I know, but cycling wasn't always like it is today.
Part of it for me, is that the TDF cyclists were my heroes.
As a boy, in the early 80's I would pretend that I was racing in "The Tour" and of course I would always cross the line with Le Mond, Delgado, Hinault, Fignon, etc, in tow arms raised above my head in victory.

Now, you have to dope up.
Sad Stuff......
 :nonod: :bluefrown: :sad: 
Brian


----------



## kabayan (Oct 25, 2004)

Is the book out - 'Big Money Sports and the Compelling Need to Cheat'?

Another sad entry in the 'History of Cheating in Professional Sports'.

This will make for some interesting reading in Michael's upcoming book - 'You Can Trust Me - Michael Rasmussen's Tour'

Levi just got an advance on his memoir tentatively titled 'Hair Loss - What Racing Clean Did For Me'.  Sorry Levi


----------



## Clutch (Apr 26, 2005)

Dave. said:


> Remember last year when we heard the news that Floyd had tested positive and how much that hurt?
> 
> This Vino news is gonna hurt the sport in an even bigger way. Not good ... not good at all.


Yes, I do remember it hurting and that's why I wasn't bothering to follow the TDF this year, until I caught the end of the time trial Saturday. That stage and the two after it made for some entertaining television. All professional sport is just entertainment anyway, so as long as you accept some of these guys are doping, you should be able to enjoy the show no matter the outcome.


----------



## merlin (Jan 20, 2004)

This really is depressing, you gotta love Vino, kinda the Rocky of cycling, then you find out he is a cheater :madman: 
I just don't know who to trust anymore. Next thing you know Lindsey Lohan will have relapse and be in rehab again!


----------



## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

Interesting related article with more details: 
"Vinokourov guilty until B test proves otherwise - manager"
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/24072007/3/vinokourov-guilty-b-test-proves-otherwise-manager.html


----------



## StormShadow (Apr 8, 2004)

catch22 said:


> So, do Evans and Kirchen get credit for stage wins?


They probably will if/when the B sample comes back positive.



catch22 said:


> That would pull Evans :20 closer to Rasmussen in the GC.


There is no time bonus in the Time Trial.


----------



## tallrider (Jul 29, 2006)

*it was worse before*

The tour has always had doping since day one, in days past it was an open secret.
I've read about cocaine and heroin use, and after WW2 apparentally they were using speed!
How they did that without having heart attacks is beyond me..

I agree with the previous post, quit testing them, if they want to kill themselves phuckem.

There's doping of some kind in most all pro sports these days, that the tour is so under the microscope is kind of puzzling.


----------



## Whafe (May 27, 2004)

CraigH said:


> Interesting related article with more details:
> "Vinokourov guilty until B test proves otherwise - manager"
> http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/24072007/3/vinokourov-guilty-b-test-proves-otherwise-manager.html


That spelt it out loud and clear from his manager.....

Not saying it for the sake of it, but professional sport is going down the toilet really... As above in a post, we will be made to make it legal and let them fight it out that way, but sheesh, that really defines humans as gone too far..... The money is surely the root of all evil on this topic, or just the need to win a TDF....

I am not even going to waste another minute on watching it, and it is not a flippant statement. :ciappa: :ciappa: :ciappa: :ciappa: to the dopers.................:nono:


----------



## poppy (Jan 24, 2006)

I also used to be a great fan of the TDF for many years.
It use to be a fantastic sport event but it is no longer, it going from bad to even badder.
The two years suspension is not enough .


----------



## A girl from Seattle (May 3, 2007)

I feel the same way -- I used to love the Tour and looked forward to it so much every year, but now it's just outta control how many people are involved in doping scandals.

I think the doping has always been there. I personally believe Lance was using (hated the arrogant jerk), I believe Jan Ullrich was using (had his faults but I still rooted for him) and unfortunately I believe Tyler Hamilton was using too (loved him). There was/is just too much evidence against them, and now Rassmussen too. Makes you not even want to bother rooting for anyone anymore.

The problem will never be solved until they put as much money into anti-doping controls as can be made by doping.


----------



## tomimcmillar (Oct 27, 2005)

tallrider said:


> The tour has always had doping since day one, in days past it was an open secret.
> I've read about cocaine and heroin use, and after WW2 apparentally they were using speed!
> How they did that without having heart attacks is beyond me..
> 
> snip.......


cough, cough.

Tom Simpson


----------



## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

I dunno, it's a bit disappointing on the one hand, on the other I'm too busy with my own athletic failings to really care about Vino Not being able to ride just sucks.

Anyway, there's a couple of things people (I use the term loosely, as I also include the international press, UCI, and various other organizations in this) need to take heed of:

1. People are guilty until proven innocent. This is a very simply but significant principle in most of the 'free' (again, loosely) world. What makes professional sport so different that this principle goes out of the window? Yes, the money involved. McQuaid and his henchmen need to learn to shut their trap and act responsibly.

2. Rasmussen has now been warned four times!? Yesterday is was only two! He'd have had a suspension slapped on to him after his third, so what ís all the fuss about? How many of the people here (let alone UCI and Danish cycling fed members) can give somebody a detailed plan of there whereabouts on a daily basis for the next 3 months? Eh? Add to this that the people screaming loudest - several French PT team managers - have under their own wings a host of riders who inadvertently forgot to mention where they'd be for the next weeks. Talk about hypocrisy.

3. It's all politics anyway. The reason it doesn't make the press in the MTB world is a) nobody gives a rat's ***, b) nobody gives a rat's *** to spend the money and c) nobody spends the money so nobody bothers to test. Round 'ere the doping checks are minimal to non-existent. Don't blame it on "stupid roadies" either. Doping is around in EVERY sport. It's simply a matter of how much is tolerated by the public, the managers and the investors that determines how much appears in the press.


----------



## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

(Not picking on you,but...)

So far all Rasmussen has done is fail to provide a day to day schedule of where he would be for x amount of time. He's received a warning for that, no more. The accusation that he had BioPure (?) delivered from the US is something that - to me - interestingly enough just raises its head when Rasmussen takes the lead in the Tour. Coincidence?

As far I can see there is zero concrete evidence against Rasmussen at this point, apart from the fact that he couldn't be bothered to give ADD an hourly timetable for the next three months of his life.


----------



## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

eric said:


> He's received a warning for that, no more.


4 warnings actually. Details here:
*Danish official questions Rasmussen's eligibility*
http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=reu-tourrasmussenworre&prov=reuters&type=lgns


----------



## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

I still don't understand why these guys continue to dope. They keep getting caught and the consequences are so huge. It's so stupid.


----------



## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

Hmmm. I read the article before posting... I just find it odd that the same officials were talking about two in yesterday's paper. Pretty bizar, the politics of cycling, IMHO.


----------



## Necromancer (Jul 4, 2007)

The chicken missed two doping tests of the Danish agency, and two tests of UCI. The two are independent. When he was thrown out of the Danish national team, news broke about the two tests he missed with the Danish agency. Then later, UCI revealed that he missed two tests of UCI, making a total of four missed tests. But since he did not miss three successive tests of any individual agency, he is not considered as positive yet.


----------



## Necromancer (Jul 4, 2007)

mtbbrian said:


> I know, *but cycling wasn't always like it is today*.
> Part of it for me, is that the TDF cyclists were my heroes.
> As a boy, in the early 80's I would pretend that I was racing in "The Tour" and of course I would always cross the line with Le Mond, Delgado, Hinault, Fignon, etc, in tow arms raised above my head in victory.


Brian, I think cycling was always this way, but it is only now that there are stricter doping controls leading to people getting caught. And it is not like sports such as baseball are any better.


----------



## catch22 (Apr 30, 2004)

StormShadow said:


> They probably will if/when the B sample comes back positive.
> 
> There is no time bonus in the Time Trial.


Ahhh, good call, forgot about that.


----------



## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

Thanks for the clarification


----------



## catch22 (Apr 30, 2004)

eric said:


> How many of the people here (let alone UCI and Danish cycling fed members) can give somebody a detailed plan of there whereabouts on a daily basis for the next 3 months? Eh?


I'd like to think that if it was my job and I had a team and sponsors depending on me that I could get this done pretty easily. I'm guessing most these guys have agents and team managers to assist them with it as well and I'm guessing that there are ways to give the testing agencies updates if your plans change. Not saying he is guilty, just that he isn't doing himself any favors not meeting the requirements when all the other contenders apparently managed to so.

That said, I'm with the others, let em dope and die early, in the meantime I'll keep enjoying the Tour and Barry's home run chase.


----------



## Ridin'Dirty (Jun 4, 2004)

I am pulling for *TEAM *Discovery. Of course, if Contador was caught up in all this BS I wouldn't be as interested in the tour this year.

I try not to let the actions of a few premier riders ruin all the greatness that surrounds this event. It is still one of the most exciting and entertaining races in all of cycling. I would think that Rasmussen is, for all intensive purposes, "clean" for this race right? I don't know about earlier in the season but if he does not have an unfair advantage for this race I'm still looking forward to see him and Contador battle.


----------



## pimpbot (Dec 31, 2003)

*Remember in...*



superlightracer said:


> If the cash incentives were bigger it would be just as bad in the MTB world. Filip Meirhaeghe ring a bell?


.... Off Road to Athens? He made the comment that the Americans will never win because they aren't willing to 'do what it takes' to win.

What a jerk.


----------



## Jorgemonkey (Mar 10, 2004)

I say test the top 10-20 stage finishers after each stage, and test the top 10 after every stage as well.

And screw a 2 year ban. Give em a 5-10 year ban. That might make them think more.


----------



## ferday (Jan 15, 2004)

> I say test the top 10-20 stage finishers after each stage, and test the top 10 after every stage as well.
> 
> And screw a 2 year ban. Give em a 5-10 year ban. That might make them think more.


....followed by immediately cancelling the TDF, as there wouldn't be any more racers....


----------



## Snowpug (Apr 23, 2007)

Cycling truly is in a big mess both professionally and recreationally. Such a shame...:sad: 

What a way to end a career if the Vino doping proves to be true!? I guess it was a tell tale sign when you destroy the complete field by half a day in the TT and then struggle just to finish the very next stage...:nono: 

Contador does look like a spectacular talent for the future I admit. The way he was toying with Rasmussen yesterday was funny. Such a young guy still and the key is that he has already overcome great adversity in his life - a key factor in the development of character I believe. Hopefully he can stay away from the drugs.

I am still praying to see the almighty return of the one and only, drunk, high, and tormented brilliance of Mr. J. Ulrich next year. I would love to see him come back and win the tour at 280lbs


----------



## jspharmd (Jan 11, 2005)

I would suggest that they continue to "test" everyone, but never find anyone who tests positive, or better yet, occasionally find someone positive (preferably someone who is a d***) so as not to arouse suspicion. 

This has worked wonders for football and baseball. You can't tell me that those 260 lbs linebackers running a 4.5 fourty are al naturale. 

As Americans we get really upset when someone tests positive (as seen on this thread) we then "believe" the systems works and go about our merry, oblivious, way. The athletes get to cheat, we get to think they don't, and everybody is happy.:thumbsup:


----------



## rideit (Jan 22, 2004)

The very first TDF was a sham, marred by cheating, sabotage, and yes, drugs.
It has always been a willing host for scandal, from it's inception.
Sad, but absolutely 100% true.
Thus ever was.


----------



## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

You know what...
The HELL with "The Tour"
I am going for a ride!
Everything is better when I ride.
There's no scandal, no war, nothing negative!
Everything is better when I ride my bike!
:thumbsup:
Brian


----------



## gunner1 (Aug 28, 2005)

mopartodd said:


> There's only one sure way to keep it fair....let them take whatever drugs they want to take. If they want to kill themselves, that's their business....phuck 'em.


Oh no, don't "let" them dope, MAKE them dope, then that evens things out nicely. I was done when I had to explain to my 11 year old what doping was after he saw the TDf report followed by a bit on Bonds. <sigh>:bluefrown:


----------



## BadHabit (Jan 12, 2004)

rideit said:


> The very first TDF was a sham, marred by cheating, sabotage, and yes, drugs.
> It has always been a willing host for scandal, from it's inception.
> Sad, but absolutely 100% true.
> Thus ever was.


What do you think of this:

"This is how a sport cleans itself up--by catching the cheaters."

Should that be any satisfaction? Hope for the future of the Tour and professional racing?


----------



## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

*They ALL dope...*

My comments on this from a thread in the Arizona forum:


waltaz said:


> I enjoyed watching the Tours with Lance, and I enjoyed last year watching Landis, before he got busted for cheating.
> 
> However, since it is ridiculously apparent that professional cycling is worse than any other sport, including pro wrestling and bodybuilding, in terms of performance-enhancing drug use, and that all of the top riders dope, I could care less about it.





waltaz said:


> And now this:
> http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-tourdefrance-vinokourov&prov=ap&
> 
> And Rasmussen is next...
> ...


I also firmly believe that Lance doped. You don't beat everyone for 7 straight years, all of whom were doping, and not be doping yourself. Plus, way too much circumstantial evidence out there against him. He doped. Period.

That said, I have enjoyed watching a few of the mountain stages this year, and am looking forward to tomorrow's toughest mountain stage, assuming Rasmussen hasn't been bounced by then...


----------



## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

It appears for the hearsay, that the real difficulty in winning the tour, is how you keep from getting caught. 

And this is pure speculation but if doping actually works, and allows people to win the tour, then there is motivation to dope--strong motivation. In fact, one might think they have no other choice. Thus, they have to chance it or lose the tour. If you are a pro with high stakes, you might be under pressure to do what it takes.

We also have the accusations by Whitney Richards of Rasmussen sending doping blood, claiming it was bike shoes. It might be BS or maybe valid. Who knows? Everything seems suspicious at this point.


----------



## wfl3 (Dec 30, 2003)

catch22 said:


> So, do Evans and Kirchen get credit for stage wins? That would pull Evans :20 closer to Rasmussen in the GC.


None for Evans - no time bonus given for time trials, you make your own time bonus there.

Kirchen - who cares, he won't podium anyway.


----------



## catch22 (Apr 30, 2004)

Interesting quote from Lance on Rasmussen 

"It's 2007, everyone's accessible by cell phone, e-mail or Blackberry. I declared where I was 365 days a year. Everybody has to play by the same rules."


----------



## kabayan (Oct 25, 2004)

mopartodd said:


> There's only one sure way to keep it fair....let them take whatever drugs they want to take. If they want to kill themselves, that's their business....phuck 'em.


You might wanna clarify that to something like, Let them take whatever drugs they want to take as long as they only kill themselves. If they want to kill others i.e. wives and kids, then maybe taking those drugs should be made illegal. Google Chris Benoit.


----------



## robinb (Aug 11, 2006)

*what do you expect*

When you are trying to clean up a sport as aggresively as the UCI and the pro tour teams are - there are going to be casualties. If all this additional testing, charters etc didn't turn up any others doping, I would be worried.

There was some good quotes on cyclingnews - the one by Jonathan Vaughters I liked best.

"Nature culls sick herds of animals. Cycling is just going through a natural culling....sad to say, but true. The riders and teams that have chosen to be clean will survive this. We will too"

another interesting quote from the same site was from the french manager of team Cofidis regarding the attitude of vino towards the french

"He always told us what a brave guy he is, that he is stronger than the pain, that the French ride behind everyone else because they are lazier. Now we see that he is a big bastard"

robin


----------



## Mynamesrob (Jul 25, 2004)

Between this, Vick's dogfighting, and the basketball referee, I'm finding it harder and harder to find a model in any sport. Bummer...


----------



## aword4you (Jul 25, 2005)

Mynamesrob said:


> Between this, Vick's dogfighting, and the basketball referee, I'm finding it harder and harder to find a model in any sport. Bummer...


Until I read otherwise, LaDanian Thomlinson.


----------



## FM (Apr 30, 2003)

A girl from Seattle said:


> I feel the same way -- I used to love the Tour and looked forward to it so much every year, but now it's just outta control how many people are involved in doping scandals.


Third that. I used to love road riding and the tour inspired me every year to ride harder. But every year the tour is overwhelmed by doping scandals. There's nobody left to root for when all your cycling heroes have been outed as cheats.

I really think a ban is in order. When there is no money to be made, maybe people will return to honest racing.

In the meantime, why doesn't versus/OLN etc cover honest cycling- crankworks, cyclocross, international DH, etc? Even track or kirin. Any change would be welcome IMHO.


----------



## Ericmopar (Aug 23, 2003)

I have my doubts about Armstrong now. If most of the top riders have been caught cheating in the last two years, then how did Lance do what he did without cheating. I am also aware of what cancer and its treatments do to the body. That makes me even more suspicious.

Later, Eric.


----------



## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

Mynamesrob said:


> Between this, Vick's dogfighting, and the basketball referee, I'm finding it harder and harder to find a model in any sport


Women's beach volleyball...? Lots of models there...


----------



## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

gunner1 said:


> Oh no, don't "let" them dope, MAKE them dope, then that evens things out nicely. I was done when I had to explain to my 11 year old what doping was after he saw the TDf report followed by a bit on Bonds. <sigh>:bluefrown:


 Point being, "then we don't have to hear about it." Sucks that it's gotten to the point that we have to fall back on the "out of sight, out of mind" way of doing things.

I can explain it to my kid IF it would ever come up. Then I'd tell him about the negative side of the drug use. I planned on doing it any way.


----------



## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Ridin'Dirty said:


> I am pulling for *TEAM *Discovery. Of course, if Contador was caught up in all this BS I wouldn't be as interested in the tour this year.
> 
> I try not to let the actions of a few premier riders ruin all the greatness that surrounds this event. It is still one of the most exciting and entertaining races in all of cycling. I would think that Rasmussen is, for all intensive purposes, "clean" for this race right? I don't know about earlier in the season but if he does not have an unfair advantage for this race I'm still looking forward to see him and Contador battle.


Rasmussen is almost to the point of being thrown out because it has come to light that he has missed two doping controls in the last month. The director of the tour said he would never have let him start had he known this. While I like Contador he was a member of the same liberty Siguros team that was implicated in the Operation Puerto doping investigation. He too may be suspended because of this.


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

Mynamesrob said:


> Between this, Vick's dogfighting, and the basketball referee, I'm finding it harder and harder to find a model in any sport. Bummer...


Not to mention F1's spionage scandal involving McLaren and Ferrari people... bummer.

I'm really bummed by this Vino's stuff... I was following the Tour holding hopes for him to make a comeback.

I'm bummed too for the Chicken. Kinda mixed feelings there because he was a MTB'er, but I'm not holding hopes for him to be clean anymore.


----------



## sandblast (Mar 27, 2006)

I am not giving up on the tour. I love to watch it, and it will take more than some doping to change that. It sucks about Vino, but I'll move on. I dont think (based on nothing of course) that ole' chicken legs is dirty, so hopefully that will blow over. And if it doesnt and he gets booted... Nine straight American victories baby! The way I see it, doping puts kind of a wildcard into the sport, mixes things up a bit- one day Astana is kicking a##, the next day POOF- no Astana. It adds some danger. I am not going to deprive myself, I love to watch and cheer, it even inspires me to ride harder. As far as my kids go- I live in So. Cal- I have way bigger things to worry about influencing them drug wise than The Tour, believe me.

And by the way, Lance did not dope. He was tested and tested and tested, clean. Always clean. The whole f'ing planet was watching him, and he was always clean- I love how guys on message boards know more than all the doctors.


> I also firmly believe that Lance doped. You don't beat everyone for 7 straight years, all of whom were doping, and not be doping yourself. Plus, way too much circumstantial evidence out there against him. He doped. Period.


 Whatever. I think you dope. Period.


----------



## Jorgemonkey (Mar 10, 2004)

SortOT, but not really.

If Lance doped, we know everyone else did also. And he still spanked them.

If he didn't dope, he still spanked them.


----------



## MarkHL (Oct 12, 2004)

*Astana has left the tour...*

Thought I'd see a flurry of discussion on this...

As of July 24 (rest day)

Alexandre Vinokourov failed a drug test (testing detected an illegal blood transfusion) after his stage 13 victory and he and his team are no longer in the Tour De France


----------



## 29Colossus (Jun 4, 2006)

This is a mountain biking forum....

But the, "flurry" was much earlier.


----------



## ewl (Jun 16, 2004)

Forget the tour and all the whiny liars!

Here's a race that's worth following - http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=320601


----------



## davis (Jan 12, 2004)

*I'm shocked!*

Let's see...rider absolutely gets crushed and loses 30 minutes...next day he has an amazing come back to win the stage...how Floyd-esque.

How to tell if a rider is using: Do they have a pro contract? If yes, then they're using. Its sad, but true. But mom, everyone's doing it! And yes, I believe that even _*he*_ was using.

rft: :skep:


----------



## Snowpug (Apr 23, 2007)

Deleted, wrong thread.


----------



## Snowpug (Apr 23, 2007)

Rasmussen update:

He has been kicked off the Olympic National team for the 08 Olympics for failing to provide Dutch authorities his whereabouts for random drug testing.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Clutch said:


> Yes, I do remember it hurting and that's why I wasn't bothering to follow the TDF this year, until I caught the end of the time trial Saturday. That stage and the two after it made for some entertaining television. All professional sport is just entertainment anyway, so *as long as you accept some of these guys are doping, you should be able to enjoy the show no matter the outcome*.


I find I'm not as entertained by the race any more since I keep questioning if so-and-so is doping. It takes the suspense out of it. It'd be like knowing some of the racers have a hidden motor inside their bike. What fun is that?


----------



## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

sandblast said:


> And by the way, Lance did not dope. He was tested and tested and tested, clean. Always clean. The whole f'ing planet was watching him, and he was always clean- I love how guys on message boards know more than all the doctors.
> 
> Whatever. I think you dope. Period.


No, those doctors know way more than me and most of us - Lance never got busted. Which means, of course, that he didn't dope. And neither did Barry Bonds - he never failed a test either...


----------



## ArmySlowRdr (Dec 19, 2003)

yeah the dope that organizes or owns the tour or whatever spouted off about how the system needs changed because it isn't working at defending his--the biggest greatest race there is. to which I say BS--true the system isnt working--it's not defending the great racers. i am of the growing group that says t hell with testing.


----------



## rmbnick (Jun 10, 2007)

yea vino made it so obvious, although his tt skin suit is cool and they definetly have the hottest kit in the tour


----------



## ArmySlowRdr (Dec 19, 2003)

and just look at the size of some of those gal tennis players--like they dont dope

t hell with testing. i think the quest to assure amerikhuns dont keep winning le tour and maybe even other events has caused pound and a few other idiots to ruin the sport by insisting on a witch hunt.

damn let the cyclists spin the pedals and lets quit worrying about all this cr%p.



waltaz said:


> No, those doctors know way more than me and most of us - Lance never got busted. Which means, of course, that he didn't dope. And neither did Barry Bonds - he never failed a test either...


----------



## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Snowpug said:


> Rasmussen update:
> 
> He has been kicked off the Olympic National team for the 08 Olympics for failing to provide Dutch authorities his whereabouts for random drug testing.


Why should he supply Dutch authorities with anything.........considering he's Danish, not the same thing. I know what you meant, just breaking your balls. He's also been under the watch of the UCI for a while for, let's say anomalies.


----------



## jtrider (Mar 6, 2005)

*Cheaters Suck !!!!!*

From Cycling to Baseball. It's all about greed. :madmax: It's really a shame.
I think what needs to happen in all sports is, If you are found guilty of cheating, then you are banned for life. Even on the first offense. Banned for life. No second chance. No need to say I'm sorry. Just banned from the sport for life. I think that will stop the cheating. It may cost the officiating body a great sum of money to keep up with all of the cheating methods but, it would be worth it.


----------



## CraigH (Dec 22, 2003)

MarkHL said:


> Thought I'd see a flurry of discussion on this...


Check out:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=321945


----------



## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

*How doping in cycling really works for those interested.*

You've heard all the catch words, EPO, Steroids, blood transfusions etc, but with all the modern testing methods there is basically one or two protocols for doping in cycling. 
First I'd like to point out that just sticking a needle in your arm with some doping agent in it is not going to make you win the Tour De France, not even close. 
The first method of doping in cycling is testosterone, this is primarily used in the off season or during extended periods out of competition. Testosterone will not make you faster, what it will do is let you train more and harder and still be able to recover, this WILL make you faster. It isn't really used in competition because the amount needed to help you recover is easily detectable and you are definitely going to be tested during a race, out of competition testing is more of a crap shoot, or you could do like Michael Rasmussen did and disappear in Mexico somewhere for a few months. Also there are now rumors of a new masking agent that makes detection difficult. It's an ongoing battle between the testers and the athletes. 
The second form of doping used involves red blood cell count and it's ability to transfer oxygen to the muscles. Every person has a red blood cell percentage (haematocrit) that ranges between 20-50% of blood volume. The higher numbers are usually from genetics or people who live at altitude. The higher the red blood cell count the better you are at transefering oxygen to the muscles and the better your aerobic performance. For the last 10 years athletes have been using synthetic red blood cell boosters originally developed for Chemo patients and hemophiliacs with names like Erythropoietin (EPO), Aranasp, Procrit, and there are a few more. The governing body had no way to detect this initially but knew of it's use. To combat this problem they established a maximum haematocrit level an athlete could have and still race, this was 50%, above this and you had to sit out of racing for 2 weeks. Before this time there were rumors of Former Tour De France winners Marco Pantani and Bjarne Riis having haematocrits in the 60% range. Synthetic blood boosters are now detectable, so athletes have gone back to an old method that the 1984 US track team used to good effect except with a new twist, autologous and homologous blood transfusing. The reason autologous(your own) blood transfusing never really caught on previously is that after drawing blood you become very tired for a few weeks, not good for a racer training 25-30 hours a week, so homologous (someone elses compatible blood) transfusing was used, this is what Tyler Hamilton got caught with after the UCI secretly revealed they had a method for detecting this and what Vino got popped for (what an idiot). Autologous doping is still undetectable. 
The current method of autologous blood doping involves athletes drawing blood from themselves and then using a red blood cell booster ( EPO, etc) to quickly get their blood volume back up to normal levels to be able to train, again they do this during times away from racing because the EPO is detectable for a few days (and they hope they don't get randomly tested out of competition....or they head to Mexico), they then inject the blood back in when needed. The interesting thing about blood doping is they aren't really doing something that's giving them superhuman performance, because they still have to stay at or below that 50% haematocrit, a number that I bet more that a few people on this forum are normally very close to. What they are doing is keeping their haematocrit just at or below the allowed limit. Because racing and training lowers red blood cell levels ( and testosterone for that matter) substantially this doping allows them to stay consistent and not get "tired" especially over a three week stage race. 
So there you go. It's not as easy as taking a pill and winning the Tour, and a typical doping regimen can run over $50,000 a year, so have at it, that Sport class XC race is coming up.

*What happened to my paragraphs? *


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Well "most top riders" didn't get caught. Basso was never caught, Ullrich was never caught etc. They made 1000s of test and never tested positive.  But don't get me wrong... tested negative doesn't really mean you are not using doping, it just means you have good enough doctors, that they don't catch you. 
With Lance it was even a bit easier, considering most of todays doping is based on medicines used to treat cancer patients. But if someone still wants to live in bubble, they can still believe, only 10 guys at TdF are cheaters using doping


----------



## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

Rivet said:


> First I'd like to point out that just sticking a needle in your arm with some doping agent in it is not going to make you win the Tour De France, not even close.
> ...So there you go. It's not as easy as taking a pill and winning the Tour, and a typical doping regimen can run over $50,000 a year, so have at it, that Sport class XC race is coming up.


Why is it that you think your God-given purpose in life is to drop in to MTBR on a regular basis to find yet another way to tell us that mountain bikers are inferior to road bikers, and that we could never possibly understand?


----------



## Whafe (May 27, 2004)

jtrider said:


> From Cycling to Baseball. It's all about greed. :madmax: It's really a shame.
> I think what needs to happen in all sports is, If you are found guilty of cheating, then you are banned for life. Even on the first offense. Banned for life. No second chance. No need to say I'm sorry. Just banned from the sport for life. I think that will stop the cheating. It may cost the officiating body a great sum of money to keep up with all of the cheating methods but, it would be worth it.


I agree, one strike and you are out, banned for life.....................

Worries me though, we may have no pro sport...... So be it............


----------



## mtroy (Jun 10, 2005)

Rivet said:


> You've heard all the catch words, EPO, Steroids, blood transfusions etc, but with all the modern testing methods there is basically one or two protocols for doping in cycling.
> First I'd like to point out that just sticking a needle in your arm with some doping agent in it is not going to make you win the Tour De France, not even close.
> The first method of doping in cycling is testosterone, this is primarily used in the off season or during extended periods out of competition. Testosterone will not make you faster, what it will do is let you train more and harder and still be able to recover, this WILL make you faster. It isn't really used in competition because the amount needed to help you recover is easily detectable and you are definitely going to be tested during a race, out of competition testing is more of a crap shoot, or you could do like Michael Rasmussen did and disappear in Mexico somewhere for a few months. Also there are now rumors of a new masking agent that makes detection difficult. It's an ongoing battle between the testers and the athletes.
> The second form of doping used involves red blood cell count and it's ability to transfer oxygen to the muscles. Every person has a red blood cell percentage (haematocrit) that ranges between 20-50% of blood volume. The higher numbers are usually from genetics or people who live at altitude. The higher the red blood cell count the better you are at transefering oxygen to the muscles and the better your aerobic performance. For the last 10 years athletes have been using synthetic red blood cell boosters originally developed for Chemo patients and hemophiliacs with names like Erythropoietin (EPO), Aranasp, Procrit, and there are a few more. The governing body had no way to detect this initially but knew of it's use. To combat this problem they established a maximum haematocrit level an athlete could have and still race, this was 50%, above this and you had to sit out of racing for 2 weeks. Before this time there were rumors of Former Tour De France winners Marco Pantani and Bjarne Riis having haematocrits in the 60% range. Synthetic blood boosters are now detectable, so athletes have gone back to an old method that the 1984 US track team used to good effect except with a new twist, autologous and homologous blood transfusing. The reason autologous(your own) blood transfusing never really caught on previously is that after drawing blood you become very tired for a few weeks, not good for a racer training 25-30 hours a week, so homologous (someone elses compatible blood) transfusing was used, this is what Tyler Hamilton got caught with after the UCI secretly revealed they had a method for detecting this and what Vino got popped for (what an idiot). Autologous doping is still undetectable.
> ...


Interesting. I think I will stick to eating my Wheaties and being as slow as ever to the top of the hill


----------



## Nostromo (Sep 22, 2005)

Cheers for that, thats quite interesting.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

eric said:


> 1. People are *guilty until proven innocent*. This is a very simply but significant principle in most of the 'free' (again, loosely) world. What makes professional sport so different that this principle goes out of the window? Yes, the money involved. McQuaid and his henchmen need to learn to shut their trap and act responsibly.


Is that what you meant to say?



eric said:


> 2. How many of the people here (let alone UCI and Danish cycling fed members) can give somebody a detailed plan of there whereabouts on a daily basis for the next 3 months?


I think most of us can account for our whereabouts. I go to work in the day, sleep at my own home each night, and don't have any unplanned, sudden vacations. If I were to leave the country, I'd know about it well ahead of time.

I prefer playing sports to watching sports.


----------



## Dazed (Feb 7, 2004)

Circlip said:


> Why is it that you think your God-given purpose in life is to drop in to MTBR on a regular basis to find yet another way to tell us that mountain bikers are inferior to road bikers, and that we could never possibly understand?


I really didn't read that in his very informative post.


----------



## Nat (Dec 30, 2003)

Dazed said:


> I really didn't read that in his very informative post.


You have to get to know Rivet. While he can be a bit of a wet blanket he is generally quite knowledgeable and informative...even if he is Mr. Poopie Pants. I've grown to appreciate the contrast he provides; making sure we don't have too good of a time here. Kind of like a chaperon!


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Great writting, and it's pretty much right, except for few smaller glitches. Autologous doping is also detectable. They have way to find different red blood cells age, and second thing, you can't store your blood for ages without some chemistry, which can be detectable. But problem is that, most of doping stuff is years ahead of anti-doping things, so that's reason why they catch so little people. Years ago, Italian police found during one of their Giro raids some weird stuff which needed to be stored at -170c (or something), and anti-doping doctors didn't have slightest idea what's all about. Only after months they found out it's some blood plasma substitute meant for army and emergency rooms, which was still deep in development phase, and nowhere near public availability. With public availability I mean availability for hospitals and doctors, not for me and you.

And another reason why homologous doping was so popular is, that your father/mother/some other relative with same blood type doesn't have doping controls, so they can get as much epo as they want, without being in fear to be tested. And yes, it was (well obviously it still is) happening, even if it sounds impossible that someone would drag their relatives into this.

PS: One more thing to your writting... it's not about "battle between the testers and the athletes". Doping is handled by organized crime groups. It's just too big business to be left to some athlete and/or their doctor. So on the end, athletes are just guinea pigs on the end of line, while most of stuff is handled by people who were not even close to sport.


----------



## gunner1 (Aug 28, 2005)

After thinking about it, it's always been a scandal in professional sports, betting, fixing, doping, cheating, thugs in the N(fill in the blanks), hell, even my favorite spectator sport, NASCAR cheats and they celebrate it as part of their heritage. I guess I'll thank the Spirits that I live 2 miles from the Lehigh Valley Velodrome in PA and can see amatuers and olympic track stars, junior nationals and local business sponsored track bicycle races when I want to see bikes race.


----------



## 40hills (Apr 24, 2006)

He knew all that from his many years of being a dope.


----------



## Evil Patrick (Sep 13, 2004)

btadlock said:


> so, the one in the crowd that I was referring to was you.


You awake yet?

Here's some "forum coffee":

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=321945

I was never a "crowd of one". The fans have spoken. A larger crowd is gathering...


----------



## Whafe (May 27, 2004)

Interesting thread to say the least, good information..... I still hate cheats though.....


----------



## Guest (Jul 25, 2007)

Thanks for the tutorial...

bm


----------



## jspharmd (Jan 11, 2005)

Interesting write-up. However, I believe the majority of MTBR posters don't really think "I could win Le TDF if I just took some [insert banned substance here]." Regardless, Rivet has very simply described currently well know methods for cheating. I would argue that there are probably some currently unidentified methods of cheating as primoz has mentioned.

Primoz,

The substance you are describing sounds very much like polymerized hemoglobin (not aware of a -170 C storage requirement). One polymerized hemoglobin product, Polyheme, has just been evaluated in a Phase III trial evaluating treatment of blood loss following trauma. In its current form, this product will not be easy to use for doping, because it causes all sorts of problems with the measurements of certain electrolytes. This would easily be detected by the simplest blood test (BMP).

I still believe the largest problem with the current testing format is that the dirty laundry is aired immediately without confirmatory results. I can't figure out why the athlete must request the B sample be tested. My opinion is that a positive test should always be confirmed prior to believing the results. I have seen common laboratory test, used on a daily basis, produce extremely inaccurate results. Upon recheck of the test, using a fresh sample, the result was completely normal. The erroneous sample was then disregarded. It saddens me that everyone has deal with a cloudy picture and skewed media coverage before a confirmatory test is even conducted.


----------



## rugbyred (Aug 31, 2006)

*Wel said*

Having listened to Dick Pound give a lecture in one of my courses, it was interesting to hear him explain how cycling has "acceptable limits" for testostorone and red blood cell levels. What this means according to him was that as long as you doped and stayed BELOW thses limits, you could not be found guilty of using drugs.


----------



## unezridr (Apr 17, 2007)

Why not just change the name to:

Tour de DOPE

let it be no holds barred, no testing, use whatever you want. Save a bunch on all the testing...


----------



## forkboy (Apr 20, 2004)

Rivet said:


> So there you go. It's not as easy as taking a pill and winning the Tour, and a typical doping regimen can run over $50,000 a year, so have at it, that Sport class XC race is coming up.


Nice write up. I understood the basics of what the different drugs did, but not how someone would actually go about implementing a doping regimen.

I ride with a couple that used to compete at world-class levels. Their opinion was that even the most genetically gifted racers could barely hope for a top - ten finish unassisted.

I see no reason to argue.


----------



## Ridin'Dirty (Jun 4, 2004)

Rivet said:


> Rasmussen is almost to the point of being thrown out because it has come to light that he has missed two doping controls in the last month. The director of the tour said he would never have let him start had he known this. While I like Contador he was a member of the same liberty Siguros team that was implicated in the Operation Puerto doping investigation. He too may be suspended because of this.


Que Sera Sera  I really do believe the sport of cycling and races like the TDF are great despite its heroes and its villains. If Lance, Jan Ulrich, or Myles Rockwell took up golf instead of biking we would all still be here obsessing over all things cycling.

Plus, this time of year its either the Tour De France or re-runs of House. I'm just glad to see any cycling on TV even if we have to watch a bunch of crackheads battle it out.

Le Tour De Crack - that would be a race with some real drama!


----------



## alm80 (Jun 16, 2006)

What kinds of testosterone do endurance athletes use? 
As in long acting esters or short acting esters? 
Are the methods (obviously not the doses) similar to that of pro bodybuilders?

Just thought id throw those questions out there


----------



## nOOby (Jul 20, 2007)

dope man dope man
hey man give me a hit
dope man dope man
hey yo f__k that sh_t
dope man dope man
we just can't quit
dope man dope man


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

jspharmd said:


> The substance you are describing sounds very much like polymerized hemoglobin (not aware of a -170 C storage requirement). One polymerized hemoglobin product, Polyheme, has just been evaluated in a Phase III trial evaluating treatment of blood loss following trauma. In its current form, this product will not be easy to use for doping, because it causes all sorts of problems with the measurements of certain electrolytes. This would easily be detected by the simplest blood test (BMP).


To be honest I forgot exactly what was the name (it was quite few years back and my memory is hm... not too good ), but it could easily be this what you wrote about. I remember that about year or so later, development of that thing was droped since it failed to get through some FDA tests. But that's not really point. Point is, that stuff used in doping has very little to do with normal drugs currently available to normal people.


----------



## jspharmd (Jan 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted by waltaz
> I enjoyed watching the Tours with Lance, and I enjoyed last year watching Landis, before he got busted for cheating.
> 
> However, since it is ridiculously apparent that professional cycling is worse than any other sport, including pro wrestling and bodybuilding, in terms of performance-enhancing drug use, and that all of the top riders dope, I could care less about it.


waltaz,

No offense, but your second paragraph has to be the most idiotic statement I have ever heard. How can cycling be worse than the 100% steroid use in professional bodybuilding? FYI there really is no 110% you hear people mention in sports. As for pro wrestling, 90-100% of those guys juice. If this was meant to be an exaggeration, you might consider using some animation to indicate your feelings :eekster:

Football is not different except that the league has realized the eliminating steroids would be bad for business. Who wants to see 220 lb lineman and 175 lb linebackers? You realize that some of the running backs weigh as much as 250 lbs and run a 4.5 forty, don't you? That is not natural. Pro football players have gone so far as to have a urinary catheter place just prior to providing a urine sample. They withdraw their urine and have fresh, clean urine placed in their bladder. They then hurry over to the testing facility and provide a drug-free sample. Why do you think TDF riders are tested immediately?

If Vinokourov "never tested positive" everyone would be praising him for his determination and cycling would be just like pro sports in the US loved and respected as drug free.


----------



## nOOby (Jul 20, 2007)

look kinda like my legs after hall ranch, co


----------



## aliensporebomb (Feb 2, 2004)

It's an interesting article but the fact remains that there will always be those that try to
gain a competitive advantage instead of putting in the work needed.

Or maybe they're putting in the work to do the deed but the doping is their insurance.

Still it's detectable. And the rash of pro cyclists who died in the early to mid 1990s
due to being on something that may have given them a competitive advantage but
may also have lead to an early death shows me that, no way. 

I'd rather ride clean and live instead of getting a dirty win and possible die from 
being injected with God knows what. 

The thing is, this really seems like a problem endemic with road riding although
I wonder if the MTB world has its own set of problems that hasn't been seen yet.


----------



## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

too bad team Astana got kicked out of the tour as a result of his toughness, err, drugs, err.... Bye bye Vino.


----------



## Trouble Maker (Mar 19, 2007)

rugbyred said:


> ...Dick Pound...


Is that really the guys name? :lol:


----------



## nOOby (Jul 20, 2007)

> The thing is, this really seems like a problem endemic with road riding although
> I wonder if the MTB world has its own set of problems that hasn't been seen yet.


seems like beer is the biggest issue. Maybe a rash of AA meeting with a ride afterwards.


----------



## borregokid (Feb 18, 2004)

I am not sure at all about testosterone not making you faster or being used in the off season to train. There is evidence that testosterone gives immediate results. Just look back at last year and the race that Floyd Landis won at the Tour after he had finished so poorly the day before. The pro-riders spend a lot of money on "supplements" to get faster but dont think it doesnt creep down to the amateur level to at least some extent. 

There has to be some use of testosterone at the amateur level judging by the amount of prescriptions being written. There are about 3 million prescriptions written annually to men in the US for testosterone. Your local Costco sells several types of testosterone. If one in 15 men over 40 is taking testosterone there are probably a few guys racing using it. I think for guys over 40 the results will be much greater than for younger guys where the loss of muscle mass isnt as great. Maybe someone will post and tell us what their experience has been.?


----------



## Sisco_28601 (Mar 16, 2007)

As far as Lance is concerned - sure he was never tested positive but some analysis results back then would be failing to today's standards...

Dangle a big bag of cash at the end of any sports and some people will always do whatever it takes to enhance their performance and ensure the win. On top of that, once you start getting more cash, you have more resources to find the best recipes and ways to conceal what you've been taking... it's an art! ut:

On another note, I'm glad it's not an American that's under scrutiny - that way I don't hear the "stupid French just hating that an American is winning again..." argument


----------



## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

primoz said:


> ...don't get me wrong... tested negative doesn't really mean you are not doping, it just means you have good enough doctors, [and] that they don't catch you.


That really is it - I can't recall Lance ever saying he was racing clean, only that he'd - emphatically at times - insist he never tested positive. Very, very big difference.

A former pro racer buddy/team mate - who raced with LeMond - has always said everyone is using. Period. It's a constant game of cat-and-mouse, of gambling on not getting caught, balancing dosages, and timing, and a little luck. No doubt it takes a gifted athlete to compete at the International Pro Level - but at that level, even a tiny performance improvement can make or break a season.


----------



## DrewS (Aug 11, 2005)

gunner1 said:


> After thinking about it, it's always been a scandal in professional sports, betting, fixing, doping, cheating, thugs in the N(fill in the blanks), hell, even my favorite spectator sport, NASCAR cheats and they celebrate it as part of their heritage. I guess I'll thank the Spirits that I live 2 miles from the Lehigh Valley Velodrome in PA and can see amatuers and olympic track stars, junior nationals and local business sponsored track bicycle races when I want to see bikes race.


Come on now Gunner, we both know some of the gals at the LV Velo personally. They have legs bigger than me! They all have to be doping! And did you ever hear the way the offical rings the bell? I think he is on the juice too! The announcer sounds a little too excited at times too, lets give him a test! And did you ever see the way the beer girl pours a beer? I dont know why, but the Sam Adams taste really good. She has to be doping as well.

(To any of the ladies at the LV Velo, I am kidding, I respect all of you, and please dont beat me up.)


----------



## Snowpug (Apr 23, 2007)

Rivet said:


> Why should he supply Dutch authorities with anything.........considering he's Danish, not the same thing. I know what you meant, just breaking your balls. He's also been under the watch of the UCI for a while for, let's say anomalies.


LOL, sorry my bad, I actually thought he was Dutch...d'oh!

He rode very well today however and took whatever Contador, Levi, and Evans could throw at him. He looked real strong. Hopefully he doesn't get banned tomorrow for doping...

Hats off to Levi today, he rode an amazing race and actually managed to change gears once or twice(not literally of course)


----------



## Snowpug (Apr 23, 2007)

Rivet, thx for the interesting and very informative post.


----------



## waltaz (Oct 14, 2004)

jspharmd said:


> No offense, but your second paragraph has to be the most idiotic statement I have ever heard. How can cycling be worse than the 100% steroid use in professional bodybuilding? FYI there really is no 110% you hear people mention in sports. As for pro wrestling, 90-100% of those guys juice. If this was meant to be an exaggeration, you might consider using some animation to indicate your feelings :eekster:


Yeah, it was a pretty idiotic statement...felt good, though...:skep:


----------



## jspharmd (Jan 11, 2005)

waltaz said:


> Yeah, it was a pretty idiotic statement...felt good, though...:skep:


LOL:thumbsup:


----------



## SwissBuster (Jan 19, 2004)

eric said:


> Hmmm. I read the article before posting... I just find it odd that the same officials were talking about two in yesterday's paper. Pretty bizar, the politics of cycling, IMHO.


I could be wrong on this, but I beleive two are from the Danish cycling federation and two are from the UCI - but they were the same two 'offences'. He failed to provide his detailed schedule some time early this year and again around June. Two offences but a total of four warnings from two different agencies.


----------



## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

He could have saved all those words and posted a link! ;-)

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/12924.0.html


----------



## pavement_hurts (May 13, 2006)

i knew that i should have changed my major to biochemistry. i could be making a killing right now....:thumbsup:


----------



## OilCanBoyd (Aug 18, 2004)

I used to love to watch the TDF as well but like many with all of this doping stuff going on I find myself paying less attention to the race these days.


----------



## Screamin (Jun 6, 2006)

alm80 said:


> What kinds of testosterone do endurance athletes use?
> As in long acting esters or short acting esters?
> *Are the methods (obviously not the doses) similar to that of pro bodybuilders?*
> 
> Just thought id throw those questions out there


EPO and related blood doping isn't something you see with Pro BBers as they are not endurance athletes. As you mentioned, the doses are much higher, and juicing with just test is SOOO 20 years ago  HGH, IGF-1, Insulin and more are all a part of a competitive BBers supplement program these days.


----------



## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

Yeah, sorry. I'm party asleep behind the computer. Beter than asleep at the wheel.... ;-) My apologies.

Anyway, my point is that, depending on how tight the cycling (or other sports') federation's rules are, you may need to plan ahead in much more detail. I.e. leaving for vacation a day earlier or later because your significant other requires it (just an example) would already get you a warning.

Even at my pathetic level of racing I travel a lot of miles throughout Europe, and I can recall many, many occasions where weather, health, even car trouble led to complete changes in plans. Yeah, a rider of Rasmussen's caliber should probably be a bit more resonsible, but apparently he isn't. It's like people that are ALWAYS late. You can threaten to fire them, and they still show up at 9:15 instead of 9 sharp (people like me...).

I don't see anything suspicious in it, and I think the level of detail required by some organizations is ridiculous. I'm all for a clean sport, but I strongly feel that there is a limit to the amount of bureaucracy and infringement on personal freedom that one can tolerate, even being a world-class paid pro. Having to provide in the smallest detail where I'm going to be for every single day for the next months seems a) impossible and b) would really, really begin to **** me off. Guess that's just me.

[/end of rant. If I come across pretty pissed I'm sorry.... not being able to ride does that to you. ;-) Happy trails.]


----------



## Jorgemonkey (Mar 10, 2004)

*Two more bite the dust*

Is there gonna be anyone left to finish the race?

From Velnews:

http://velonews.com/tour2007/news/articles/12930.0.html

Cofidis confirmed Wednesday that its entire team will leave the Tour de France after rider Cristian Moreni tested positive for testosterone after last week's 11th stage.

Moreni was officially thrown out of the race following the 16th stage after being told he had tested positive for testosterone.

Cofidis officials, announced they will forgo their right to ask for analysis of a 'B' sample, also accepted the Tour's "invitation" to withdraw from the race, becoming the second team in 24 hours to exit France's national tour.

The Kazakh-backed Astana team exited the race under a cloud on Wednesday following Alexandre Vinokourov's positive test for blood doping. It is the third official doping case to be announced at the Tour, which ends this Sunday in Paris.

Germany's Patrik Sinkewitz tested positive for testosterone, although the T-Mobile rider's control was carried out in June, so his team has been allowed to remain in the race.

Sinkewitz was in the hospital recovering from injuries sustained in a crash in the Alps when he heard of the news.

Vinokourov left the Tour, but told reporters near his home in Monaco that he believes that injuries sustained in a stage-5 crash may have triggered the positive test. Vinokourov did not receive a blood transfusion from doctors treating his injuries.


----------



## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

lidarman said:


> He could have saved all those words and posted a link! ;-)
> 
> http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/12924.0.html


Hmmm, hadn't seen that, very informative. looks like it cleared up a few questions I had myself.


----------



## lidarman (Jan 12, 2004)

jorgemonkey said:


> Is there gonna be anyone left to finish the race?


It's so bad, even the fans are doping!


----------



## rugbyred (Aug 31, 2006)

Trouble Maker said:


> Is that really the guys name? :lol:


Yes, well it is Richard Pound, head of WADA (World Anti-Doping Associationg). He was the next inline to become president of the IOC (international Olympic Committee).


----------



## Blue Shorts (Jun 1, 2004)

Rivet said:


> Hmmm, hadn't seen that, very informative. looks like it cleared up a few questions I had myself.


THe good side of all of this is that Pro Road Racers are making NFL players look squeaky clean by comparison:thumbsup:


----------



## SpinWheelz (May 3, 2004)

This is so awesome, for very selfish reasons. Last year, I remember making some throwaway comment about Landis juicing it when he dominated that one climb and half of MTBR turned into weepbags, saying I was out of line and and that I must produce proof if I was to make such statements...! Grrrr, everything on the interweb is really effin serious!!!

Anyway, I blew off the rest of the year's Tour de France and I couldn't even be bothered to follow any of it this year. I mean, what's the point: it's a battle of the nobodies, and even the nobodies can't compete fairly. You watch each charge to the line, you watch each breakaway and it doesn't even matter 'cause you know that every one of them is doped to the gills (ooooh, bring the proof again!). Doped to the point that EPO is now so passe, puh-leeze. You're haven't lived 'til you've mainlined a few bags of cow blood. I prefer the Freisian variety myself.

In the end, who gives a toss. Seems like the regulations are fatally flawed and if a sport can't regulate itself, then it deserves to die a slow, agonizing death. Warp mentioned F1, but there's a world of difference between what's happening between McLaren and Ferrari and the world of cheating that takes place in grand prix racing, versus cycling where the only variable that decides the winner - i.e. the rider - cannot be regulated in any comprehensive fashion.


----------



## burtronix (Jun 5, 2006)

Nat said:


> You have to get to know Rivet. While he can be a bit of a wet blanket he is generally quite knowledgeable and informative...even if he is Mr. Poopie Pants. I've grown to appreciate the contrast he provides; making sure we don't have too good of a time here. Kind of like a chaperon!


But he has a really cool avatar. I think I'll get a shirt like that & wear it on my next trip to China.:eekster:


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

SpinWheelz said:


> Warp mentioned F1, but there's a world of difference between what's happening between McLaren and Ferrari and the world of cheating that takes place in grand prix racing, versus cycling where the only variable that decides the winner - i.e. the rider - cannot be regulated in any comprehensive fashion.


Agreed.

I was just making the point that where there's some kind of competition involved, there'll be some kind of cheating associated.

Anyway, what Stepney and/or Coughlan made was just dumb. What were they thinking? But we can argue that in another thread 

Back to Pro-Cyclists... Can we call it a failure in the lower levels of racing? It's not like they just hit the TDF and started doping. How many fair racers are being left out because of someone stealing their place to get there.

Sad. Oddly, after all of this mess (and what I said just yesterday), I'm still following the TDF and the news about it. Vino's requested a B Sample... I hope it would prove him innocent, but I don't hold my breath to it.


----------



## MOJO K (Jan 26, 2007)

"I do not wish to hear spoken the word doping. Rather, one must say ' treating yourself,' and speak of treatments that are not appropriate for ordinary mortals. You cannot compete in the Tour de France on mineral water alone." Jacques Anquetil


----------



## man w/ one hand (Dec 29, 2003)

Nat said:


> You have to get to know Rivet. While he can be a bit of a wet blanket he is generally quite knowledgeable and informative...even if he is Mr. Poopie Pants. I've grown to appreciate the contrast he provides; making sure we don't have too good of a time here. Kind of like a chaperon!


True, reality can be a contrast to the way we see ourselves and others perceive us. No one wants to hear stuff like this, they just want to have vague ideas of what goes on and not have to delve into the facts to know the truth. When we were kids we needed those bigger than life people to look up to. When we grow up and start learning the truth about these icons in our lives, we turn away so we don't have our perceptions destroyed. When cheating, bad behavior & the like are are covered up for so many yrs in our lives & then exposed we not only have let ourselves down by doing it, we have let entire generations, entire groups of sport lovers, entire families down by not keepin' it real. Reality keeps us honest, but only if someone is ALWAYS watching. Deep inside we all want to beat the other guy, some people don't care how or what they have to do to do it. They are the ones that are letting everyone down.


----------



## pipes10 (Mar 11, 2007)

...


----------



## SpinWheelz (May 3, 2004)

Warp said:


> How many fair racers are being left out because of someone stealing their place to get there.


Therein lies the conundrum. The bar of competition has been elevated to such unrealistic, inflated levels that it becomes impossible to be competitive without marinating yourself in supercharged ox blood. In terms of professional competitive cycling, fair racer = sh!tty racer.


----------



## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

SpinWheelz said:


> I mean, what's the point: it's a battle of the nobodies, and even the nobodies can't compete fairly.


Huh. I'd posit the opposite.

This tour is more fun than the Lance Show, watching young guys (sorry, "nobodies") - doped or not is a whole lot more fun in my opinion, than the same-old same-old. Soler? Contador? Little Linus G.? Hell, freakin' Chris Horner is having an excellent ride thus far....

So the show will go on, and perhaps by 2010 Floyd will or will not have the title - and perhaps THIS tour will be sorted out by then as well....


----------



## rs3o (Jan 12, 2004)

aliensporebomb said:


> IThe thing is, this really seems like a problem endemic with road riding although I wonder if the MTB world has its own set of problems that hasn't been seen yet.


Doping is definitely not limited to road racing. For instance Filip Meirhaeghe, former UCI World mountain biking champion just got off serving his ban for EPO use this past year. He seems to be concentrating on road racing now since I bet he would get a lot of sh!t in the MTB racing community. Also witness the Dopers Suck movement prevalent among US MTB racers. It seems that it's pretty obvious to some folks in the know that doping is happening on the UCI mountain bike circuit and heck, probably right in our backyards.


----------



## Bodhi3 (Apr 29, 2004)

EPO, Erythropoietin, is a naturally occuring hormone produced by the kidneys. It is not synthetic. This is why they can't test directly for it.


----------



## edemtbs (Apr 12, 2005)

Rasmussen, yanked!


----------



## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

edemtbs said:


> Rasmussen, yanked!


Next up: Contador - then Disco will be out....

poor Levi!


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

glenzx said:


> poor Levi!


Is he clean??

Was Kloden clean??


----------



## Jessep (Dec 1, 2004)

Maybe Leiphemer can get a podium now! (Go Butte Montana!)


----------



## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

Warp said:


> Is he clean??
> 
> Was Kloden clean??


Levi looks like he's as clean as they come, for what that's worth... Kloden? Who knows. I really hope Contador doesn't turn up dirty.... but we'll see when they announce Sundays post-race test results.

Blah. The whole thing blows - and is ruining the slight bit of fun this TdF seemed to have with so many new/young racers doing well.


----------



## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*Rassmuessen Kicked Off the Team. Out of TdF*

What a soap opera this year's Tour has turned in to.

http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/details/articles/12944.0.html


----------



## InvictaS1 (Mar 19, 2005)

*Ramussen pulled from Tour*

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/more/07/25/tour.stage16.ap/index.html?cnn=yes


----------



## merlin (Jan 20, 2004)

HOLLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!

I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


----------



## karatemonkey (Mar 9, 2007)

That sucks, I was really looking forward to the former World MTB Champ winning the TDF. 
"F" the Tour!


----------



## Noelg (Jan 21, 2004)

*Discovery to Victory!!!!*

If they can avoid getting busted....:skep:


----------



## InvictaS1 (Mar 19, 2005)

wow, the tour is a real joke. they should just give the last place finisher the yellow jersey.


----------



## Fat Elvis (Jan 14, 2004)

merlin said:


> HOLLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


I agree, this is some good stuff. Only two more guys have to get busted for an American to win it for the 9th year in a row.


----------



## Flyer (Jan 25, 2004)

As Zion wisely said and I echoed- just bring Ullrich, Basso, Lance, and Landis back next year and we will have a fantastic Tour. Looking forward to it


----------



## Snowpug (Apr 23, 2007)

Seriously, I thought you guys were joking about Rasmussen! WTF is going on??? This was supposed to be the year that the Tour got itself together after last years debacle. I still can't believe that Rasmussen got pulled only a couple of hours after what I was joking about?????

Seriously next year I will be riding the Tour and I predict I will most likely win it. Even if it takes me 12 hours to finish a 6 hour stage all I have to do is stay clean and just get to the finish line each day and I will win by default for being the ONLY dumbass NOT to shoot up! Un-f'ing-believeable - what a freakin' farce it has turned into. I can't wait to hear Liggett, Sherwin, and Roll's opinion on all this tonight...


----------



## Snowpug (Apr 23, 2007)

Flyer said:


> As Zion wisely said and I echoed- just bring Ullrich, Basso, Lance, and Landis back next year and we will have a fantastic Tour. Looking forward to it


I would love to see Ullrich come back next year and win it!

He can be fat, drunk, depressed, suicidal, and remain at 260lbs BUT as long as he stays away from the DOPE he should be just fine:thumbsup:

Tour de Farce


----------



## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

Snowpug said:


> This was supposed to be the year that the Tour got itself together after last years debacle...


Last year looks sqeaky-clean comparitively!


----------



## Snowpug (Apr 23, 2007)

glenzx said:


> Last year looks sqeaky-clean comparitively!


LOL...no sh1t!


----------



## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

karatemonkey said:


> That sucks, I was really looking forward to the former World MTB Champ winning the TDF.
> "F" the Tour!


Yeah!!! I was really pulling for Michael after Alexander got busted. Well, this sure does increase the chances of team Discovery now doesn't it???


----------



## SlowSSer (Dec 19, 2003)

Snowpug said:


> I would love to see Ullrich come back next year and win it!
> 
> He can be fat, drunk, depressed, suicidal, and remain at 260lbs BUT as long as he stays away from the DOPE he should be just fine:thumbsup:
> 
> Tour de Farce


thanks! afternoon tea, meet computer screen!


----------



## Rivet (Sep 3, 2004)

Bodhi3 said:


> EPO, Erythropoietin, is a naturally occuring hormone produced by the kidneys. It is not synthetic. This is why they can't test directly for it.


Yep, your right, should have written Epogen, which I'm not sure if it's synthetic but it is man made.


----------



## TheotherH (Jan 21, 2004)

Damn it. I was enjoying watching Contodor attack Rassmuessen.

C'mon little Spanish fella, go all the way!


----------



## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

karatemonkey said:


> That sucks, I was really looking forward to the former World MTB Champ winning the TDF. "F" the Tour!


Cadel Evans, who has a good shot of "winning" the Tour now (for whatever winning actually means in this case) was actually a far more accomplished mountain biker than Rasmussen anyhow, with the exception of Rasmussen's one-day performance at the 1999MTB worlds. Like anyone really cares any more anyhow. :madman:


----------



## anthony.delorenzo (Aug 17, 2006)

*I feel worst for his teammates*

I feel so bad for his teammates. Those guys have been killing themselves out front fighting for the yellow jersey, only to be totally let down by their leader. That's really sad, especially after watching how well they protected the jersey on this last stage (and how big a price they all paid).

How many pictures and camera shots of Rasmussen are of him being pulled along by Flecha, Dekker, Menchov and especially Boogerd. These are all good cyclists and could have challenged for GC or stage wins themselves.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

I think it is a conspiracy. The French are going to keep DQing contenders until they get a Frenchman in the yellow jersey.


----------



## Warp (May 24, 2004)

glenzx said:


> Levi looks like he's as clean as they come, for what that's worth...


Well... Floyd looked very clean until he was caught. I'm not saying he's not clean, but with the recent events, it would rather surprise me if he's indeed clean. Same goes for any other racer out there.


----------



## J . (May 28, 2006)

SlowSSer said:


> thanks! afternoon tea, meet computer screen!


   :thumbsup:

I managed to contain it until I read this... ROFL!!!!


----------



## Clutchman83 (Apr 16, 2006)

You really think Contodor at 24 years old is going to win and be dope free... I'm a bit skeptical about that. Ever since Lance left you pretty much have to wait until the week after they ride into Paris to figure out whos the actual winner. It's tough to get excited about whos in yellow anymore because chances are they're gonna get fired or banned within the next couple stages.


----------



## xcguy (Apr 18, 2004)

*The real joke here is*

the fact that there are forces out there who do not want the Tour De France to be as important a race that it's historically been. Minor infractions are blown so out of proportion, any allegation from any quarter immediately becomes fact and the accused is summarily executed. Rasmussen had some problems with his team in the past and only now, when he's in Yellow and heading for a TDF podium he's kicked off his team? Where is the true justice in all of this? Why didn't his team and him come to some sort of agreement before this? When did the prevailing sentiment become that the strongest rider in the TDF is automatically a criminal? Lance managed to fend off attack after attack and (at least for now until the newest Tell-All book arrives at your local bookstore) can keep his seven victories. The fact of Lance's successes somehow keeps vindictive SOBs feverishly scribbling out diatribe after diatribe against him, as well as vindictive wannabe SOBs coming up with allegation after allegation to besmirch the reputations of the fine athletes of the TDF. Those in the TDF who wish the race was "drug free" had better be watching their backs if they become successful because they are next to be attacked.:madman:


----------



## mcd (Jan 12, 2004)

I think daily testings and throwing out of teams/individuals makes for one of the most exciting tours in years! 

just imagine if they tested like this in football...immediately after scoring the scorer and at least 2 blockers get tested and then we reset depending on the results! they already take 3+hours to play a 1hr game, might as well make it exciting! imagine what it would look like by the end of the season!

eventually no cheaters would be left


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Ya, you could really see all the track marks on Rasmussen and Vino 

I think the German networks got it right by dropping the broadcasting of this joke of an event.



glenzx said:


> Last year looks sqeaky-clean comparitively!


----------



## rs3o (Jan 12, 2004)

006_007 said:


> I think it is a conspiracy. The French are going to keep DQing contenders until they get a Frenchman in the yellow jersey.


There are going to have to be a lot of DQs for that to happen since the highest placed Frog is Sylvain Chavanel in 26th! No wait--he's on Cofidis so he's out of the Tour. Try Stephane Goubert in 30th. Really makes you wonder what the heck is wrong with the French--or what is right with everyone else.


----------



## mootsguy (Oct 14, 2005)

SlowSSer said:


> thanks!


Not that is matters in this thread, but I am a fan of Lah-Goo-Knee-Tahs beers myself.

Especially the Undercover Shut Down Ale.

Oh yeah, what is happening with the TdF is a good thing.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

He!! with what is wrong with the French, I dont believe I have any Canadians to cheer for. Oh well, at least I have hockey. And real beer. :thumbsup:

Cant wait till they open up the rules for the tour and let them all inject whatever the heck they please. Watching those frea...err _athletes_ climb like scared monkeys will be a sight to see.



rs3o said:


> There are going to have to be a lot of DQs for that to happen since the highest placed Frog is Sylvain Chavanel in 26th! No wait--he's on Cofidis so he's out of the Tour. Try Stephane Goubert in 30th. Really makes you wonder what the heck is wrong with the French--or what is right with everyone else.


----------



## xcguy (Apr 18, 2004)

*Sorry--I didn't read the previous four pages but here's what I have to say*

Just picture watching any sport--tennis, football, soccer, gymnastics--and there's always this running commentary in the background from naysayers slamming whoever is currently performing their athletic art. "I heard he's doping" "I heard someone said (whatever)" on and on and on, in any sport you tune in to. There you have the Tour de France. Allegations become instant fact, the accused is immediately found guilty, the foes of the Tour (what are their reasons anyway?) can smirk and say "I told you so", and the gullible can nod knowingly saying, see, I knew they were all dopers, why even watch this farce? I watch the Tour to see stunningly fit athletes perform superhuman efforts. Others watch just to see the strong fall. The timing of the allegations that come to light always is suspicious, the way the doping labs are run is ridiculous, the hanging of the accused in front of the world's eyes is appalling...I'm not sick of the Tour, I'm just sick of the observers and pundits with secret agendas who gladly ruin the Tours reputation. Remember, allegation is not the same as proven fact. Trust me, it's not the riders who are ruining the TDF, it's those with their own reasons to bring it down. I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any means but it's so obvious where the TDF is concerned I'm amazed everyone isn't on to the accusers. Any rider who thinks, just because he isn't "doping" he won't eventually be accused and immediately executed (if he's successful) better be looking over his shoulder for the accusers.


----------



## Jorgemonkey (Mar 10, 2004)

I wouldn't be surprised if someone started another version of The Tour - this one for dopers only. Then we could have all the guys who have been caught ride and see which doper is really fastest!


----------



## Hollis (Dec 19, 2003)

*wow*



Ken in KC said:


> What a soap opera this year's Tour has turned in to.


<---sitting gobsmacked in front of the screen


----------



## Ken in KC (Jan 12, 2004)

*ummm....*



xcguy said:


> the fact that there are forces out there who do not want the Tour De France to be as important a race that it's historically been. Minor infractions are blown so out of proportion, any allegation from any quarter immediately becomes fact and the accused is summarily executed. Rasmussen had some problems with his team in the past and only now, when he's in Yellow and heading for a TDF podium he's kicked off his team? Where is the true justice in all of this? Why didn't his team and him come to some sort of agreement before this? When did the prevailing sentiment become that the strongest rider in the TDF is automatically a criminal? Lance managed to fend off attack after attack and (at least for now until the newest Tell-All book arrives at your local bookstore) can keep his seven victories. The fact of Lance's successes somehow keeps vindictive SOBs feverishly scribbling out diatribe after diatribe against him, as well as vindictive wannabe SOBs coming up with allegation after allegation to besmirch the reputations of the fine athletes of the TDF. Those in the TDF who wish the race was "drug free" had better be watching their backs if they become successful because they are next to be attacked.:madman:


Did you read the article? His team manager booted him off the team for telling the team he was in Mexico when he was actually in Italy with Dr. Ferrari (or whatever the hell his name is). The same Dr. that Vino was seeing.


----------



## Snowpug (Apr 23, 2007)

Ok guys I'm sure some of you are sitting in front of the TV watching the enhanced coverage of the Tour tonight.

I feel so bad for the commentary team (which is exceptional btw), the fellow riders, and the fans, BUT I couldn't help myself laughing at the screen when I saw the sheer dismay on Als, Bobs, Pauls and Phils faces, and then heard the sheer disappointment in their voices - and the way they were doing their VERY best to stay upbeat and deflect the controversy and "save" face with their beloved sport. Don't ask me "why" I was laughing, it certainly wasn't "at" them but more "with" them in disbelief I guess...

...*THEN* I realized that this was pre-recorded BEFORE the Rasmussen announcement confirmed as the text announcer at the bottom of the screen announced the "Breaking news". I mistakenly thought the evening coverage was filmed live in the studio, obviously not.

So poor Al, Bob, Phil and Paul are sat somewhere in France as we speak even MORE distraught then they appear on screen! And they have to look forward to going into the studio sometime soon to film tomorrow night's coverage that will inevitably include the shocking Rasmussen news.

Good job for those guys that the wine flows freely and the hookers are dirty in France.


----------



## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

I am so sick of all this. I think they should just be allowed to dope. They all do anyways. I mean who cares really... I just want to watch a good race. Why does Bonds still have a job while cyclists everywhere are getting fired.


----------



## poppy (Jan 24, 2006)

What next


----------



## Bortis Yelltzen (May 18, 2004)

lucifer said:


> I am so sick of all this. I think they should just be allowed to dope. They all do anyways. I mean who cares really... I just want to watch a good race. Why does Bonds still have a job while cyclists everywhere are getting fired.


Mehhh..........if I want to entertain myself by watching drug fueled mammals compete I'd rather spend my time watching knife fights between monkeys loaded up on a potent mixture of LSD and amphetamines. Sucks that these guys have ruined the sport and after all this alienated most of the population with their selfishness and lack of self respect.

B


----------



## Acme54321 (Oct 8, 2003)

Snowpug said:


> I would love to see Ullrich come back next year and win it!
> 
> He can be fat, drunk, depressed, suicidal, and remain at 260lbs BUT as long as he stays away from the DOPE he should be just fine:thumbsup:
> 
> Tour de Farce


I loved watching Ulrich pounding along with his gut hanging over his shorts and out of his jersey, LOL. He was awesome, inspiration for all fatties, and druggies for that matter


----------



## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

wow. another one bites the dust ahh. maybe i won't turn on the tour tonight...


----------



## Snowpug (Apr 23, 2007)

poppy said:


> What next


Good question!?

My prediction for tomorrow:

*"Former Tour cyclist Bob Roll found drunk and naked in field with penis superglued to new Sram carbon crankset!"*


----------



## Acme54321 (Oct 8, 2003)

I think this year's tour is great. All of the fools getting kicked off, dudes comming out of nowhere and kicking ass. Way better than the Lance years, and even last year.


----------



## rkj__ (Feb 29, 2004)

Snowpug said:


> Good question!?
> 
> My prediction for tomorrow:
> 
> *"Former Tour cyclist Bob Roll found drunk and naked in field with penis superglued to new Sram carbon crankset!"*


that made me laugh


----------



## sandblast (Mar 27, 2006)

Wellll... If Levi rides his ass off he could win this thing- Contador could have a bad time trial and Levi only needs -1 minute on Evans. Weirder things have happened. That said, if Contador tests dirty and Disco goes out I am going to ride my bike into a wall.

*WALTAZ* : I just re read my post answering yours from last night and I have to offer you an apology- I dont think you dope . I feel stupid for making a personal attack like that, when I dont even know you. You are obviously entitled to your opinion... Sorry.


----------



## ArmySlowRdr (Dec 19, 2003)

agree with you--the tour has been wrecked this year by busybodies.



lucifer said:


> I am so sick of all this. I think they should just be allowed to dope. They all do anyways. I mean who cares really... I just want to watch a good race. Why does Bonds still have a job while cyclists everywhere are getting fired.


----------



## pedalitup (May 30, 2007)

I'm with Lucifer, theres too much money at stake to believe that anyone could ever seriously believe in a "clean" TDF. I say let the riders decide amongst themselves if such scrutiny as DNA testing and being dragged off by the pigs for training or whatever in a private place is warranted in cycling. 
I wonder how successful the "bust 'em" mindset has ever been and how many of a persons basic human rights need to be sacrificed to level a playing field? Or an oil field? I equate the latest crap at the tour with that failed joke in the middle east! Literally billions have been wasted there, argue if you would but thats what it is - a waste.

I wonder how anyone can support increased enforcement and enslavement of these riders and how that can possibly be in any spectators best interests? 

So tell me how do we take the money that motivates such an overwhelming need to win at any cost out of the peloton?

What the f else could make a guy like Vino risk a transfusion in the position he was in?

I ride a little bit myself. Lately I've gotten to the point of managing to go around 22 mph for under 20 miles. I don't care if some pro can do 35 or 40. Why should that bother me? I don't automatically need to suspect a man who is simply stronger than me of somehow cheating. Since I assume most of you are just regular cyclists like me I wonder why it bothers some of you so much that you wanna turn the peloton into another stupid militaristic exercise in ignorance?

I suppose I just think people should be able to do what they will without having to constantly be on the lookout for the pee police. As long as theres a buck to be made and winners and losers there will be those who will do what it takes to get the prize.

And what does crank and acid have to do with a blood transfusion? Stereotypes are a good way to fan controversy and whip up excitement and get attention eh?

I should probably feel guilty about a double americano before a three hour ride and a couple cordyceps tabs a day too. . . 

When does it STOP!


----------



## Dave_schuldt (May 10, 2004)

mtbbrian said:


> I used to LOVE watching and discussing the TDF, but after the continued drug BS,, with Vinokourov and his team and Rasmussen's BS.
> I am giving up.
> I am that frustrated and angry at the sport.
> Brian
> :madmax: :madman:  :bluefrown: :sad: :???: :nonod:


Me too.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Wow, didnt see that one coming.

  :thumbsup: 



Snowpug said:


> Good question!?
> 
> My prediction for tomorrow:
> 
> *"Former Tour cyclist Bob Roll found drunk and naked in field with penis superglued to new Sram carbon crankset!"*


----------



## radair (Dec 19, 2002)

Ken in KC said:


> Did you read the article? His team manager booted him off the team for telling the team he was in Mexico when he was actually in Italy with Dr. Ferrari (or whatever the hell his name is). The same Dr. that Vino was seeing.


I think there's a simpler explanation: Rasmussen won today's stage, and would be tested as the stage winner. The team knows exactly what the result of the tests will be, and decided not to wait until the lab leaked the knews to the French press.

I gotta say I'm quite shocked by it, though. Today's stage was a pretty impessive display by the "elite" members of the field.


----------



## Sleeveless (Nov 18, 2006)

ArmySlowRdr said:


> agree with you--the tour has been wrecked this year by busybodies.


You guys and the "they should all just be allowed to dope" sentimentality CANNOT be serious. The guys who just want to train to be the best real cyclist in the world have to take drugs that could screw them up in so many ways for the rest of their lives just be competitive. Absolutely ridiculous.

-B


----------



## Frozenspokes (May 26, 2004)

pedalitup said:


> I'm with Lucifer, theres too much money at stake to believe that anyone could ever seriously believe in a "clean" TDF. I say let the riders decide amongst themselves if such scrutiny as DNA testing and being dragged off by the pigs for training or whatever in a private place is warranted in cycling.
> I wonder how successful the "bust 'em" mindset has ever been and how many of a persons basic human rights need to be sacrificed to level a playing field? Or an oil field? I equate the latest crap at the tour with that failed joke in the middle east! Literally billions have been wasted there, argue if you would but thats what it is - a waste.
> 
> I wonder how anyone can support increased enforcement and enslavement of these riders and how that can possibly be in any spectators best interests?
> ...


Maybe you should read up about doping before making any comments. Your obvious ignorance is offensive. This isn't about recreational drugs, it is about PERFORMANCE ENHANCING drugs. Thank you so much for sharing your amazing insights.


----------



## wg (Dec 20, 2003)

anthony.delorenzo said:


> I feel so bad for his teammates. Those guys have been killing themselves out front fighting for the yellow jersey, only to be totally let down by their leader. That's really sad, especially after watching how well they protected the jersey on this last stage (and how big a price they all paid).
> 
> How many pictures and camera shots of Rasmussen are of him being pulled along by Flecha, Dekker, Menchov and especially Boogerd. These are all good cyclists and could have challenged for GC or stage wins themselves.


My thoughts too. The dipsh1t cheater pulls down and destroys the hard work of many others.


----------



## Dwight Moody (Jan 10, 2004)

lucifer said:


> Why does Bonds still have a job while cyclists everywhere are getting fired.


Baseball players are unionized.


----------



## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

Yeah, and Amstrong. An almost every to 30 rider in the pro peloton.


----------



## VpointVick (Apr 15, 2004)

Frozenspokes said:


> Maybe you should read up about doping before making any comments. Your obvious ignorance is offensive. This isn't about recreational drugs, it is about PERFORMANCE ENHANCING drugs. Thank you so much for sharing your amazing insights.


I think he was referring to post #34.


----------



## eric (Jan 22, 2004)

pedalitup said:


> When does it STOP!


It stops when the UCI and ASO start working together instead of against each other. It stops when the 'good old boys' in management are finally booted out*. It stops when doping checks are really done by independent labs, not by shops owned by buddies or ProTour directors. It stops when long-term suspensions can be made on the basis of reliable tests. It stops when the politics and vendetta's are gone.

As I see it, the peloton is/was full of liars, with little credibility left. The circus around it (UCI, ASO, ISF, WADA and an and on and on...) lacks credibility just as must. "I doped!??? No... YOU goofed!"

Not to mention the whiners who now point the finger as soon as they can't hold the yellow jersey themselves. I p!$$ on their carbon-soled Sidi Dominators.

*: (Interesting aside: in professional soccer here in the EU, the team management is hung out to dry if the team fails.... ever wonder why this doesn't happen as much in pro cyling?)


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

So I rode my mountain bike tonight. It was fun. Also redid the ghetto tubeless on my FR rig.


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

rs3o said:


> Also witness the Dopers Suck movement prevalent among US MTB racers. It seems that it's pretty obvious to some folks in the know that doping is happening on the UCI mountain bike circuit and heck, probably right in our backyards.


Doping in local level racing or even recreational cycling is nothing so strange. If you don't believe, just check XC section of this forum for all suggestions and "suggestions" about all sorts of stuff preventing cramps, making you breath easier etc. And believe it or not, half of that stuff includes at least something, which is on banned substances lists. Doping or better to say banned substances are not just EPO or testosterone. It's whole lot of other things too, and people usually don't get, or don't want to get this.


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Well yes, they might look clean, but not because they would be clean. I just saw WADA info with numbers of testings done last year. In soccer there was zero (yes zero, 0, null) out of competition tests in 2006. As far as I know, NFL, MLB, NBA etc. doesn't even have agreement with WADA, so there's no WADA testing done in that league with their players. And from that little info I have on US sport (NFL, MLB etc. are not all that popular over here in Europe), I would say people at those federations are "a bit" smarter then people at UCI are, when it comes to destroying their sport in public. And based on interview with Victor Conte (I guess you know who he is), I have read a while ago, MLB also has no testing policy in out of competition season. So it's kinda hard to catch players if you don't test them, and therefore, everyone are clean and honest


----------



## SwissBuster (Jan 19, 2004)

Fat Elvis said:


> I agree, this is some good stuff. Only two more guys have to get busted for an American to win it for the 9th year in a row.


If you apply the same set of ethics in 2006 as are being applied this year, an American did not win in 2006.



karatemonkey said:


> That sucks, I was really looking forward to the former World MTB Champ winning the TDF.


Support Evans, then. He has some degree of credibility in my eyes (although he was cleared, for me, Contador is still tainted by the Operation Puerto scandal).


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

sandblast said:


> That said, if Contador tests dirty and Disco goes out I am going to ride my bike into a wall.


Well... if you are going to ride your bike into a wall if someone at Disco is using doping, then you are few years late for this already.  If you are going to do this only if they catch him/them, then you might actually avoid doing this. 
But personally, I will still go out and ride a bike, no matter if they cancel whole Tour and/or Protour. I don't ride bike because of those guys, but because of my fun


----------



## Ericmopar (Aug 23, 2003)

Some of you guys are giving this Rivit dude a bad time, but I happen to enjoy a good " technical hardon " once in a while. :lol:
Eric.


----------



## tvrbob86 (Aug 5, 2005)

burtronix said:


> But he has a really cool avatar. I think I'll get a shirt like that & wear it on my next trip to China.:eekster:


Take Cameron with you.


----------



## Loags (Jun 29, 2007)

So....why don't they just get a degree and work for a living?

Seriously. If it's about _winning_, any given racer will probably run clean because they respect the competition and wouldn't take pleasure in an ill-gotten victory. If it's about _money_, there are far simpler ways to get it.

Too bad American team sports aren't as diligent about doping enforcement, or at least as successful in discovering athletes who violate the rules.


----------



## Loags (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm thinking of getting into road racing, I hope they don't test for cheese curds and brandy.


----------



## anc (Aug 3, 2006)

Cycling as a pro sport has a huge doping problem, as does any endurance sport. It's nothing new. I seriously doubt any major tour has been won by a totally clean cyclist in the past sixty odd years and anyone who thinks otherwise has there head in the sand.


----------



## ThrashNY (May 18, 2005)

Wait until they start scrutinizing the pro MTBR's....the same sh*t will happen. Dopers everywhere!!!!

Pass the weed!


----------



## gunner1 (Aug 28, 2005)

Maybe everyone who's NOT french will test positive and be yanked and then they'll finally get what they've always seem to really want anyway, huh?


----------



## lobolator (Oct 29, 2006)

Just to stir the pot...Greg LeMond was the fastest time trialer ever(may still be). I guess the tests have gotten a lot better, lol.
My take is, Rasmussen is dirty, cycling can't take more suspensions of big names, so they give the team the option to yank him, thus avoiding a suspension...oh wait the results aren't all in...hmmm...actually my take is....it's all SNAFU and about to be FUBAR.
Time to get on my mtn bike.
Maybe tonight I'll watch Breaking Away to reunite the road passion, cause the TdF ain't doin it.
So I have a 24hr coming up, wonder what they make for that? Kidding, really. If nature doesn't make it, I don't really want it, except beer. 
Wish I had a hyperbarric chamber or lived at 10,000ft, best "training" ever. Remember camping in Colorado and then flying home. Once home I had a week of great rides, that I later figured out was due to my elevated living for two weeks. Maybe I can rig up my own chamber.


----------



## Evil Patrick (Sep 13, 2004)

*Michael Rasmussen ejected from game!*

...and apparantly, so was a guy named Rassmussen:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=322369

...and another guy named Ramussen!

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=322370

WOW! That's three guys right there!


----------



## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

^^


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

I guess it does hurt to have so big home race, and they can't win it for years. But somehow I don't think there's some French conspiracy thing. And I still doubt, they would go destroy cycling (and their races) just because they can't win it. But to be honest... will all stupidity around the world nowadays, I wouldn't be too surprised.


----------



## Evil Patrick (Sep 13, 2004)

*Dark Helmet*: Who made that man a gunner?
*Major @sshole*: I did sir. He's my cousin.
*Dark Helmet*: Who is he?
*Colonel Sandurz*: He's an @sshole sir.
*Dark Helmet*: I know that! What's his name?
*Colonel Sandurz*: That is his name sir. @sshole, Major @sshole!
*Dark Helmet*: And his cousin?
*Colonel Sandurz*: He's an @sshole too sir. Gunner's mate First Class Philip @sshole!
*Dark Helmet*: How many @sshole do we have on this ship, anyway?
[Entire bridge crew stands up and raises a hand]
*Entire Bridge Crew*: Yo!
*Dark Helmet*: I knew it. I'm surrounded by @ssholes!
[Dark Helmet pulls his face shield down]
*Dark Helmet*: Keep firing, @ssholes!


----------



## AggieXCRacer (Oct 10, 2005)

Noelg said:


> If they can avoid getting busted....:skep:


They have for the past two years...as US Postal did for the seven years before that...I'm just sayin...


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

lobolator said:


> Remember camping in Colorado and then flying home. Once home I had a week of great rides, that I later figured out was due to my elevated living for two weeks. Maybe I can rig up my own chamber.


And you figured it out wrong  High altitude training or high altitude house doesn't work this way, so you had week of great rides because of something else then high altitude camping 
I know how "strong" I (and everyone else I know) was after 3 weeks of training during summer on glaciers at 3000m (10.000 feet). So first week when you come down to normal height, you feel everything but great.


----------



## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

Ken in KC said:


> What a soap opera this year's Tour has turned in to.
> 
> http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/details/articles/12944.0.html


:bluefrown: :???: :nonod: :bluefrown: :madmax:


----------



## jeffscott (May 10, 2006)

Not so, done properly with testing protocals and long term follow up, it could provide the medical community within very valuable information.

Much like Indy car and Formula 1 do for the auto industry.

Just think of the headlines Team Merck beats Pharmachem by a hair, but Pharamachem still has the red jersey for longest life span.


----------



## mrryde (Feb 6, 2007)

Ken in KC said:


> What a soap opera this year's Tour has turned in to.
> 
> http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/details/articles/12944.0.html


But it makes for fun photochops


----------



## Snowpug (Apr 23, 2007)

mrryde said:


>


LOL


----------



## Necromancer (Jul 4, 2007)

anthony.delorenzo said:


> I feel so bad for his teammates. Those guys have been killing themselves out front fighting for the yellow jersey, only to be totally let down by their leader. That's really sad, especially after watching how well they protected the jersey on this last stage (and how big a price they all paid).
> 
> How many pictures and camera shots of Rasmussen are of him being pulled along by Flecha, Dekker, Menchov and especially Boogerd. These are all good cyclists and could have challenged for GC or stage wins themselves.


Yeah, those dudes were great! Today, Menchov abandoned the TdF enroute, and the other Rabobank riders were at the very back of the peloton. Really sad that the chicken betrayed them, and laid to waste all their hard work.


----------



## Toddski (Jul 8, 2004)

We were talking about this whole tour mess last night on the mtb ride and why would they cheat if they knew the chances were so great that they would get caught?… what are they thinking, it makes no sense?! I feel that they totally are not thinking and caught up in the moment trying to reach their dreams by any means necessary. Even if those doping riders only achieve glory for a few hours, it’s better than nothing when you’re behind and have already lost. My analogy is like a big frat beer party that you’re getting trashed at. You know there is a police roadblock and that if you drive home drunk you will probably get caught, but everybody is cheering on the dude who just did a upside-down beer bong and 5 shots of Yeager not to mention the blonde with the big bubbies in the corner paying him allot of attention, so what the hell, the party is now and I’m living in the moment, they roll the dice for 5 minutes of fame because “something” is better than nothing. Then when you crash the car and the cops take your license, you ask yourself was it worth it? For the pro weenie riders in this Tour who dope, I think it is. They just don’t care because they are living in the moment, winning and getting away with cheating is just an extra bonus. They don’t like biking like we do it’s just a crappy job to them, that’s why they cheat.

Biking is pure. Hard training, good rider and sweet machine, that’s all it should be, and that’s why these dopers are total arrogant jerks. They are spoiling the party for everybody.


----------



## b1umb0y (Feb 28, 2005)

*Why not let them all dope?*

Then phlebotomize them down to a hematocrit of 40% and have us some real Nascar restrictor plate racing!


----------



## nrs_air (Apr 29, 2006)

I think something that isn't said enough is that those guys are freakishly good athletes in the first place. If an average person followed a doping program like that they would get fast, maybe even to a low-level domestic pro team, but they still aren't tour material.

There's a local coach who encourages some chemical enhancement. It's nowhere near the scale of what's described in the OP, but it's definitely illegal. He's got some juniors following the program (blood doping for big races and some 'roids) and they are just mid-level cat 3's on the road.

Not trying to apologize for the dopers, but they all are still talented athletes. I'll stick to wearing my "Dopers Win" t-shirt.


----------



## habernac (Apr 12, 2005)

because there are some athletes who actually give a crap about their health.


----------



## Ericmopar (Aug 23, 2003)

*This is to depressing...*

You guys need to go to the General discussion forum and check out the "whats with this guy" thread. Its really hilarious.

Later, Eric.


----------



## mattbikeboy (Jun 8, 2004)

habernac said:


> because there are some athletes who actually give a crap about their health.


And it is still a crime punishable with jail time (like it should be). We just don't see Major League Baseball, NFL, or NBA players ever charged or punished in the US. It's a shame. That's kinda why I don't watch any of those sports anymore. At least cycling is trying (halfhearted maybe) to get ride of the problem.

mbb


----------



## nachomc (Apr 26, 2006)

Is blood doping (autologus or homologus) illegal as far as the law (ie: jail time, fines, arrested) concerned?


----------



## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

habernac said:


> because there are some athletes who actually give a crap about their health.


Exactly. There a lot of guys out there that could be racing at an elite level, but they can't because of the extent of doping in the upper tier.

These guys are out there slowly (and often not so slowly) killing themselves. 
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2007/jorg_jaksche_jul07


----------



## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

nachomc said:


> Is blood doping (autologus or homologus) illegal as far as the law (ie: jail time, fines, arrested) concerned?


Yes. See Operacion Puerto.


----------



## mattbikeboy (Jun 8, 2004)

nachomc said:


> Is blood doping (autologus or homologus) illegal as far as the law (ie: jail time, fines, arrested) concerned?


I don't know if that is (it easily could be - since there is an element of danger). Steroids and some of the other enhancers are though. Also there are the organized crime units involved in the doping trade.

I didn't see the coverage, but my wife said that Moreni was taken away in hand cuffs by the Gendarmes.

mbb


----------



## jspharmd (Jan 11, 2005)

Rivet said:


> Yep, your right, should have written Epogen, which I'm not sure if it's synthetic but it is man made.


FYI

Epogen = Procrit = erythropoetin

Erythropoietin is a glycoprotein which stimulates red blood cell production. It is produced in the kidney and stimulates the division and differentiation of committed erythroid progenitors in the bone marrow. EPOGEN® or PROCRIT® [Epoetin alfa (generic name)], a 165 amino acid glycoprotein manufactured by recombinant DNA technology, has the same biological effects as endogenous erythropoietin.1 It has a molecular weight of 30,400 daltons and is produced by mammalian cells into which the human erythropoietin gene has been introduced. The product contains the identical amino acid sequence of isolated natural erythropoietin.


----------



## J . (May 28, 2006)

Ericmopar said:


> You guys need to go to the General discussion forum and check out the "whats with this guy" thread. Its really hilarious.
> 
> Later, Eric.


thanks, I did, fell off my chair... too much, too much!


----------



## Rev Bubba (Jan 16, 2004)

*I gave up on the TDF too.*

Not that one less American viewer is going to make any difference.

I went cold turkey on the NFL last season and don't give a hoot about just about any other televised sport anyway except baseball so giving up watching/following the TDF or any other type of cycling event (yeah, I think "watching" someone else ride a mountain bike is boring too) is no big deal.

I just can't get into seeing others play when I can be outside doing it something. Actually riding a bike is so much nicer than living your life through others.


----------



## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

FWIW i think the chicken got screwed over royally. He was sacked over ******** and hearsay. Given that he was 9 days in yellow he would likely have been tested every day for the past week.

I believe that they all dope, and I honestly don't care. I just wish they would ignore it and focus on the racing. The damn commentators were even rude to Rasmussen for no good reason. It's like no one believed he could be that good. Fact is he was the best climber of who was left, and he has the polka dot jerseys to prove it.:madman: :madmax:


----------



## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

Jessep said:


> Maybe Leiphemer can get a podium now! (Go Butte Montana!)


With connections to Utah!
Brian
:thumbsup:


----------



## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

mtbfool said:


> Exactly. There a lot of guys out there that could be racing at an elite level, but they can't because of the extent of doping in the upper tier.
> 
> These guys are out there slowly (and often not so slowly) killing themselves.
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2007/jorg_jaksche_jul07


Upper tier? Hah I have reliable reports of doping way down in cat 2....and rumors that it even extends lower than that.


----------



## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

lucifer said:


> Upper tier? Hah I have reliable reports of doping way down in cat 3....


thanks for reiterating my point.


----------



## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

nachomc said:


> Is blood doping (autologus or homologus) illegal as far as the law (ie: jail time, fines, arrested) concerned?


It's "Sporting Fraud", which several countries have laws against.

As far as letting them all dope, how do you think that affects my ability acquire corporate sponsorships for my local club/team, when we're trying to portray a healthy and fair image?

How do you think that works on the mind of a talented 16 or 17 year old who is sitting there wondering if he needs to start doping if he wants to make a try at being a serious competitive cyclist?


----------



## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

Circlip said:


> It's "Sporting Fraud", which several countries have laws against.


yes. I almost edited my post to put that in there. Glad you followed up with it.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

If that is the case then every single hospital should be closed.........



nachomc said:


> Is blood doping (autologus or homologus) illegal as far as the law (ie: jail time, fines, arrested) concerned?


----------



## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

006_007 said:


> If that is the case then every single hospital should be closed.........


I hope you are kidding. My sarcasm meter isn't picking anything up.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

You will just have to get more creative - move away from the straight-laced corporate sponsorship and approach the businesses that are being ostracized by society.

For you, I would suggest the porn industry, in particular the furry-fetish sector.

:thumbsup:



Circlip said:


> As far as letting them all dope, how do you think that affects my ability acquire corporate sponsorships for my local club/team, when we're trying to portray a healthy and fair image?


----------



## thebigred67 (Mar 29, 2005)

It is kinda like saying why not put a motor on the bikes to help them go faster.


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Not really, as that is adding something to the bike to make it faster, not adding something to the human to make it go faster.

Now if we could somehow surgically attach a pneumatically controlled set of actuators that make said humans legs spin faster you might be onto something. Think Robocop.......



thebigred67 said:


> It is kinda like saying why not put a motor on the bikes to help them go faster.


----------



## thebigred67 (Mar 29, 2005)

006_007 said:


> Not really, as that is adding something to the bike to make it faster, not adding something to the human to make it go faster.
> 
> Now if we could somehow surgically attach a pneumatically controlled set of actuators that make said humans legs spin faster you might be onto something. Think Robocop.......


That is why I said "kinda". Agreed on the point though.:thumbsup:


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Jeez, I am supposed to read _EVERY _word you post? 



thebigred67 said:


> That is why I said "kinda". Agreed on the point though.:thumbsup:


----------



## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

I said what I said because I truly believe they all dope. It's not an unfair advantage if everyone is doing it....
What all this "scandalization" really does is ruin the race for fans.


----------



## thebigred67 (Mar 29, 2005)

006_007 said:


> Jeez, I am supposed to read _EVERY _word you post?


Ever other word would work!:thumbsup:


----------



## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

006_007 said:


> Jeez, I am supposed to read _EVERY _word you post?


006_007 u r a moreon.


----------



## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

I think this thread is doping.:eekster:


----------



## 006_007 (Jan 12, 2004)

Damn you, as I said before, I am CATHOLIC



Circlip said:


> 006_007 u r a moreon.


----------



## Circlip (Mar 29, 2004)

006_007 said:


> Damn you, as I said before, I am CATHOLIC


From your avatar I would have pegged you as more of a dog person than a cat-a-holic. Anyhow, I'm feeling helpful today so I thought I'd pass along these tips for helping you to convert over to being an official Cat Lady. In particular, tip # 8 comes highly recommended.

1 - Adopt a needy kitty or two from an animal shelter, or invite in some strays.

2 - Allow the kitties free reign over your home, but keep them inside only, with little separate dishes lined along the kitchen counters.

3 - Take in every cat that shows up at your door, but don't bother to get them spayed or neutered. Have a "the more the merrier" attitude, and name them all from the Old Testament.

4 - Increase the number of kitty litter boxes in your house. Have one in every room so they need to be changed less often.

5 - Close all the windows in the house to retain that sweet feline smell.

6 - Decrease the population of adult cats at the animal shelter by adopting a few more.

7 - Sleep with all your cats in your bedroom.

8 - Mew softly to yourself as you putter back and forth to the store for cat food. Eschew all human contact.

Tips & Warnings

Keeping two dozen cats is a full-time job--being a Cat Lady is best taken on by the retired person, the unemployed or the independently wealthy.

Adopting cats of differing colors and hair types will help differentiate them while you are getting in tune with your feline friends. A houseful of cats you can't tell apart might prevent bonding and weaken the Cat Lady-feline relationship.

Being a Cat Lady during your reproductive years is a bad idea (though being a Cat Lady is an excellent birth control method); changing kitty litter during pregnancy is a health hazard.


----------



## ArmySlowRdr (Dec 19, 2003)

exactly; just let them race. rasmussen got a royal shafting. i'm through watching this year's tour and will likely take a lot for me to watch next year---well maybe if Floyd is exonerated.



lucifer said:


> I said what I said because I truly believe they all dope. It's not an unfair advantage if everyone is doing it....
> What all this "scandalization" really does is ruin the race for fans.


----------



## Necromancer (Jul 4, 2007)

I was actually hoping that the chicken would get cracked by the other GC contenders, rather than go out this way. I wish that more details are released on the lies of being in Italy, etc., rather than give the impression that he was sacked due to one dude recognizing him at some place in Italy.


----------



## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

ArmySlowRdr said:


> exactly; just let them race. rasmussen got a royal shafting. i'm through watching this year's tour and will likely take a lot for me to watch next year---well maybe if Floyd is exonerated.


What about the guys that can't make it into those ranks because they refuse to dope?


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

Well in Operation Puerto there were few indictments, but none directly connected with doping. They charged Fuentes because of improper handling of blood. After he proved they were handling and storing blood based on regulations, they let him go. 
But in some countries (France, Italy, not 100% sure about Germany and Spain, but Spain only after last year) doping (including blood doping) is illegal based on law, so you can go to jail for that.


----------



## thebigred67 (Mar 29, 2005)

I'll race you to the stop sign! Lets face it. that is the basics of it all.


----------



## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

primoz said:


> Well in Operation Puerto there were few indictments, but none directly connected with doping. They charged Fuentes because of improper handling of blood. After he proved they were handling and storing blood based on regulations, they let him go.
> But in some countries (France, Italy, not 100% sure about Germany and Spain, but Spain only after last year) doping (including blood doping) is illegal based on law, so you can go to jail for that.


Yes, but it wasn't improper handling of blood to get to the local hospitals. My point was that yes, performance enhancing doping of any sort is illegal. There wouldn't have been a huge investigation of Fuentes if blood transfusions were hunky dory. It ain't 1984 anymore. Put away your spinners.


----------



## primoz (Jun 7, 2006)

1984 or 2007 it doesn't really matter  In most of EU countries, and as far as I know also in USA, possession of EPO is not same as possession of heroin, and it won't bring you to jail... even if you don't have doctors prescription for this. In France and in Italy, you will go to jail if they catch you with EPO in your bag and you don't have doctors prescription.
PS: I'm talking here only about EPO, not all other sorts of other medicines or drugs used for doping.


----------



## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

primoz said:


> 1984 or 2007 it doesn't really matter  In most of EU countries, and as far as I know also in USA, possession of EPO is not same as possession of heroin, and it won't bring you to jail... even if you don't have doctors prescription for this. In France and in Italy, you will go to jail if they catch you with EPO in your bag and you don't have doctors prescription.
> PS: I'm talking here only about EPO, not all other sorts of other medicines or drugs used for doping.


Oh but it does matter. 
1984


----------



## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

*Ha Ha*









:eekster: :band:


----------



## xcguy (Apr 18, 2004)

*What drug test exactly did Rasmussen fail? Please tell us again*



mtbfool said:


> :eekster: :band:


because I haven't yet seen a negative test result held up as evidence.


----------



## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

xcguy said:


> because I haven't yet seen a negative test result held up as evidence.


Ask David Millar about failed drug tests . . .

Erik Zabel. I'm sure he can tell you all about failed drug tests.

Mexico. Italy. What's the difference?


----------



## xcguy (Apr 18, 2004)

*Again, which test did Rasmussen fail that is being used as evidence?*



mtbfool said:


> Ask David Millar about failed drug tests . . .
> 
> Erik Zabel. I'm sure he can tell you all about failed drug tests.
> 
> Mexico. Italy. What's the difference?


Just asking because I haven't seen it. I'm not asking about Millar and Zabel, just Rasmussen. Guilty until proven innocent seems to be the rule these days at the TDF. I've heard he "passed" 17 drug tests in the last two weeks and didn't fail any of them.


----------



## mtbfool (Sep 1, 2005)

xcguy said:


> Just asking because I haven't seen it. I'm not asking about Millar and Zabel, just Rasmussen. Guilty until proven innocent seems to be the rule these days at the TDF. I've heard he "passed" 17 drug tests in the last two weeks and didn't fail any of them.


I know you weren't asking about Zabel or Millar, but they never failed a drug test either. For years they passed, and they fessed up. The tests are a joke. Zabel has won a ton of race, so he was tested quite a bit.

There have been a few racers here in the states that have gotten 1 and 2 year suspensions for missing poorly notified tests in competition. Rasmussen missed several out of competition tests. Is it just pure luck that they were by two different anti-doping agencies and he didn't get that third one that is the equivalent of a negative result?

Rabobank had it's first ever Tour winner lined up. With all the money and press that was about to come in, do you really think they would fire him if they thought he was legit? Do you think his teammates would not revolt if they thought he was innocent? They were in line for some serious cash. Lots of famous (infamous) doctors in Italy.


----------



## jeriCurl (Apr 18, 2006)

xcguy said:


> Guilty until proven innocent seems to be the rule these days at the TDF. I've heard he "passed" 17 drug tests in the last two weeks and didn't fail any of them.


I agree, the current standard of rumor or suspicion being sufficient to ruin a guy's career seems ridiculous. I'm not saying he's innocent, but the standard being used is crazy. If it was just an "administrative error", or lazy mistake, how could one possibly prove he is innocent.

I'm also amazed at the concept that during a simple 3-week period someone could possibly take enough dope to make them totally dominating in the mountain stages. That alone strains the credibility of the story.

If I was a pro rider or the manager of a pro team, I'd take matters into my own hands by hiring a lab to do tests on me and my team once a week for the whole year, simply to protect myself from any possible enemies wanting to use these crazy standards to discredit me.


----------



## GirlyBikeLover (Jul 27, 2007)

This is it for me...
I just wanted to say I'm devastated by all this... I couldn't wait to turn on the TV & watch the tour & Michael Rasmussen ride in the yellow jersey. News of his removal from the race on Wed. night felt like a punch in the stomach... I love the guy, he's a great rider. He's a former mtbk champion & has won king of the mts for two years. He really has talent. To me, the tour won't be the same without him. I can careless now who wins. I may watch it next yr, who knows... Don't mean to offend anyone in any way, just needed to get that out of my chest.


----------



## FireDog46 (Jan 13, 2004)

jeriCurl said:


> I agree, the current standard of rumor or suspicion being sufficient to ruin a guy's career seems ridiculous. I'm not saying he's innocent, but the standard being used is crazy. If it was just an "administrative error", or lazy mistake, how could one possibly prove he is innocent.
> 
> I'm also amazed at the concept that during a simple 3-week period someone could possibly take enough dope to make them totally dominating in the mountain stages. That alone strains the credibility of the story.
> 
> If I was a pro rider or the manager of a pro team, I'd take matters into my own hands by hiring a lab to do tests on me and my team once a week for the whole year, simply to protect myself from any possible enemies wanting to use these crazy standards to discredit me.


If he was really in Mexico surely it would be simple to prove through travel documents as in
tickets, passenger manifesto, etc. My wife's reaction was "Does he have an Italian girlfriend?"


----------



## mtbbrian (Sep 26, 2002)

*Could The Real Reason Be Age?*

I just caught this article on Yahoo UK, Tour de France - Roche: Older riders to blame, that implies that part of why some riders, especially the three that have been caught and asked to leave "The Tour" is becasue they are "among the older riders in the peloton"..

I am by no means in Tour shape, but I am older than the three mentioned, and I don't feel "old". 
I know we as a "Western Society" value youth and all that, but 30 something isn't old.
Brian


----------



## pedalitup (May 30, 2007)

Ignorance is bliss which is better than this.

How is a blood transfusion done carefully going to harm the riders health?

Educate me, you 'experienced' performance enhancers with your brilliant answers?

My reference to acid and crank was in reference to the post referring to drugged monkeys in a knife fight btw. . .

I pray to your super sanitary moralistic god, I never need one of those life damaging transfusions especially from my own ignorant family.

Ignorance is bliss which is better than this


----------



## mrryde (Feb 6, 2007)

saw this posted on another forum

ANGOULÊME, Jul 27 (CP) - "Colombian Juan Mauricio Soler may be the next rider involved in a doping scandal. Danish media report that the Barloworld rider tested positive after stage fourteen.

Soler, currently the leader in the mountains classification, finished third in that stage. Alberto Contador and Michael Rasmussen came in first and second respectively.

Danish medium BT reports that police are currently raiding Barloworld's Hotel, and a press conference is scheduled for 11am on Saturday."


----------



## tedroy (Mar 17, 2005)

*I,m thinkin...*

...a certain Mr. Evans needs to be carefull. It would be a shame to find a tack in his tire... if you know what i'm sayin'. I mean... a guy could get seriously HURT whit insufficiant tire pressure... if you get my drift... Go Discovery!


----------



## Necromancer (Jul 4, 2007)

mrryde said:


> saw this posted on another forum
> 
> ANGOULÊME, Jul 27 (CP) - "Colombian Juan Mauricio Soler may be the next rider involved in a doping scandal. Danish media report that the Barloworld rider tested positive after stage fourteen.
> 
> ...


According to cyclingnews, this is an unsubstantiated rumor (including the supposed raid by police), considering that Soler did take part in today's race. Maybe some journalists excited by the recent spate of doping news forgot that they are supposed to report, not make up stories.


----------



## thebigred67 (Mar 29, 2005)

It is a little funny to see such a huge responce to TDF doping on the MTBR forum!


----------



## wfl3 (Dec 30, 2003)

mrryde said:


> saw this posted on another forum
> 
> ANGOULÊME, Jul 27 (CP) - "Colombian Juan Mauricio Soler may be the next rider involved in a doping scandal. Danish media report that the Barloworld rider tested positive after stage fourteen.
> 
> ...


I've seen no news substantiating this yet, but if true another jersey would fall in Contadors lap. Yellow, White & Polka Dot in your first attempt ain't bad no matter how it shook out.


----------



## il sogno (Jul 25, 2007)

Rivet said:


> You've heard all the catch words, EPO, Steroids, blood transfusions etc, but with all the modern testing methods there is basically one or two protocols for doping in cycling. ......


Very informative. Thanks for the great post.


----------

