# Help me choose: Trek Superfly 100 or Santa Cruz Tallboy Carbon



## AdmChr (Oct 10, 2009)

Ok guys, I've worked hard and saved my pennies up to purchase a new ride and I'm having some trouble deciding. Since I'm riding farther distances and would like to be more comfortable doing it, I'm looking at getting a lightweight carbon FS 29er and need your advice. I currently ride a Trek 6500 Disc HT with some upgraded parts (28lbs) I'm 5'9, 300lbs.

I'm debating between a Trek Superfly 100 Pro carbon and a Santa Cruz Tallboy carbon. I mostly ride long distance rail trails (crushed limestone) since they are very close to me, and yes I will fully admit that both bikes are overkill , but want to be able to ride some more technical single track trails when I choose to. The LBS carries Trek and Specialized but there are no Santa Cruz dealers within 100 miles of me so I don't have the option to ride both and choose which feels better. I did ride a SF100 AL Elite around a parking lot but really didn’t get to test it out and get a feel for it. Basically if I went with the TBc, I would have to purchase it online and must have the option to return it if needed. I've read the older posts about the Superfly's frame cracking under light weight riders, but nothing about the 2012's breaking (did they change anything?) although this still worries me at my weight. And finally, I'm not sure which type of suspension between the two would be better for a heavy rider. Does one have minimal peddle bob or would handle my weight better than the other? Or would a FS bike be way to inefficient and sloppy and my weight, or am I just too heavy for a carbon bike? I've watched the Santa Cruz video comparing the differences between a carbon frame and aluminum and it seems it sure looks like carbon is the way to go. 

Thanks for taking the time to help out, I appreciate your advice. :thumbsup:


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

You mentioned your LBS carrying Specialized...have you considered a Epic Carbon 29er for your riding. It would have zero pedal bob, be active when you need suspension, and falls into the same price range as the other two you mention.


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## sagitt77 (Oct 26, 2010)

Trek is better - better brakes (Trek XT; SC Avid E5) and equipment (Trek XT; SC SLX/XT).


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## bykerider (Feb 17, 2009)

i think my superfly works really well. I am 6'4" 240lbs. 
Consider the benefits of buying your bike from a shop that is close by to buying one thats over 100miles away especially If you will be using your shops services for more than just purchasing your bike. Shops usually treat you better when you bought your bike there, or you may have a warranty issue in the future.


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## AdmChr (Oct 10, 2009)

My LBS seems really great so far and are very helpful, and it seems they are giving me a fair deal on the SF100. I've brought a couple of my buddies in to make there bike purchases and referred a few others to check them out. Even if I ordered the TBc online I would still be taking it to them for their services, but you're right, if I purchase my bike from them, I'm sure they would treat me better. 

As far as components being better on one vs. the other. I'm looking at the SF100 Pro (possibly the elite), and the TBc SPX XC which both have great component groups. The LBS did mention the Specialized Epic Carbon Expert and explained it had the brain system, but after reading the specs it seems like it wasn't even on the same league as the others. I wasn't impressed with the mixed component group or the fact it has only a carbon front and alloy rear seat/chain stays. The next model up would be the S-Works Epic and it seems more comparable to the SF100 Pro but that is out of my price range. I really liked the idea of the brain system, and it seems for my style of riding it would work great.


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## Knight511 (Nov 26, 2010)

You haven't mentioned weight. If you are a lighter clyde, you should be fine on either, but everything I have read here and been told by shock tuners is for me to stay FAR away from the SF100s. I am by no means a light weight and all have said the leverage ratio of the rear suspension is too high for me.

If my LBS carried Specialized, I would consider the Camber Carbon 29 into the mix. I don't like the Epic because of the brain and the Camber offers the same level components as the SF100 Carbon (base model) for actually less money. The Camber should also be more clyde friendly.

Edit: I just saw that you were looking toward the SF100 Pro... killer bike. If you were looking at the Elite too, put it up against the Camber Carbon Expert... I would definitely prefer to buy from my LBS over mail order for the whole bike.... just my opinion though.


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## AdmChr (Oct 10, 2009)

Sorry. I'm currently riding a Trek 6500 Disc with some upgraded parts (28lbs) and I'm 5'9 300lbs (yeah I know, I'm working on it). 

I had my info in the first post but not sure where it went... 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus


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## longms (Apr 10, 2012)

Have you been able to ride any of the above mentioned bikes that you have narrowed your options down to? If at all possible to take them for a spin that would be the only true way to tell.


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## AdmChr (Oct 10, 2009)

I did demo a 2012 Specialized Camber Comp 29er for a day and i hated it, but probably because they only had a large frame (19") and it just didn't feel right. They did have a 17.5" Trek Superfly 100 AL Elite but I was only able to test ride it in the parking lot for about 10mins. It did feel a lot better than the camber, probably because it was the right size frame. But I wasn't really able to get a feel for it testing in the parking lot. I'm not able to demo anything else but the camber (too big), and only ride the SF AL in the parking lot, testing the TBc is not an option.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus


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## Live2rideUtah (Jan 3, 2012)

I have had your exact conundrum but don't weigh as much as you, both are great bikes and is a win win situation. What pushed me to the SF100 was treks lifetime main triangle warrantee. I have broke a trek frame in the past and it was great to simply go to my lbs and get a new frame for no cost. I know the tall boys have been bulletproof but the 2 year warrantee made my mind up for me. If I drop 5k on a bike I want a warrantee to back it as long as possible.


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## AdmChr (Oct 10, 2009)

You're right, the more I think about it at my weight I should definitely be concerned about the difference in warranties. So this has me looking at the Specialized Epic Expert Carbon (lifetime warranty on the frame) again and reading up on the brain system. One thing that I just don't like is the mixed component group on it (x7, x9, x0) and I don't know much about the formula brakes. I wish they offered that model with an XX or XTR, or even full XT group without jumping up to the S-Works level. I know that I could just swap it all out but I'd rather not go thru the hassle of selling the parts. Also not sure why they stuck an alloy chainstays/seatstays on it? The more I read about the brain system the more it seems to fit my riding style for the rail trails/XC single tracks I ride. Still the the stories about the cracked frames on the Superfly worries me. Anyone hear of any known problems withe the Epics frame? 

Also, I called around a few other shops to see if the had any bikes to demo for the weekend. I was telling him the bikes I was comparing and concerns with my weight etc. And he tells me that he would never recommend buying a bike with a carbon frame to ride on rail trails since the crushed limestone would chip away and weaken the frame from tiny rock strikes. I could see if I was in a rock garden and bottomed out them frame on a sharp rock, but will tiny pebble strikes damage the frame enough to weaken it and cause failure?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus


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## Live2rideUtah (Jan 3, 2012)

I think you are good to go with the stories of the cracked frames, trek had the one year of a bad run and now it seems that all is worked out plus you had a great warranty do you got a new frame anyway. I really like the full xt grouppo that comes on the SF and to put a disclaimer on it I am a fan of shimano, but hate the mix of grouppo that comes on the specialized it should at least come with a full x9 and not try to mix it up with throwing some seven in there. I wouldn't worry about the limestone since they have armor built in the downtube, you should be fine


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## Knight511 (Nov 26, 2010)

So knowing your weight now, I have seen too many people post about the SF100 (old name Gary Fisher Hifi) having issues getting the shock tuned and set up correctly. You are only SLIGHTLY less than me, and as much as I LOVE trek (I have rode them all my life), I have been advised to stay away from the SF/Hifi bikes because the leverage ratio is too high for me and my weight. Below is the EXACT response I got from Push Industries when I asked about this same type question:



Push Industries said:


> Thanks for your email, I appreciate your interest in PUSH!
> The 2012 Superfly 100 Elite uses a 7.75x1.75 shock, it is a
> leverage-monster and would not be a good choice for a rider 260lbs+.
> The Specialized Camber and FSR 29'er would work better for you, but in
> ...


At the prices you are looking at, the Niner bikes would be queen IMHO if you are set on a 29er. I am torn still between a Fuel EX8 and the Niner RIP... I haven't made a decision though, so I can't offer much first hand on either. I will say that my LBS is really cool and they assured me that they would stand behind me on any bike I bought from them... either the SF100 or the Fuel with no issues about my weight.... so dealing with your LBS may make all the difference.


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## Knight511 (Nov 26, 2010)

The mixed groups on Specialized are not bad. The differences in the front derailleurs are minimal at best, so they saved a bit of $$ there and set you up with a better rear and shifters. Mixed groups are nothing new... mid level bikes use to come mixed with XT/XTR which would be very similar to X9/XO (I do not place XX and XTR quite on the same level for some reason). The brakes are just about Formula's top of the line... the only thing that would worry me is that you are a BIG boy trying to stop with LITTLE light weight XC brakes. I think that any light weight XC brakes will be a comprimise for us at our size. The only parts of the bike that you may have to upgrade would be the brakes... and you can get XT 785 trail brakes for less than $150 each online, so that isn't too bad (although, I would wait for Shimano's Zee line for the added big boy stopping power).

FWIW, I like the SRAM drive train better than Shimano, but SRAM just isn't holding a candle to Shimano on brakes. 

I know you know this, but it bares repeating. Light weight parts aren't always a great thing for guys our size.... instead of shaving grams off the bike at the cost of strength, we should be shhaving pounds off ourselves, but doing whatever it takes to make biking more enjoyable should always result in weight savings for us. 

As for carbon being a problem.... put some for of down tube protection on it (they do make clear film for the front end of cars that protects them from rock chips, I think it can handle a bike). I have been riding a Trek STP200 which is made from their OCLV and have had nothing but praise for the way it handles my weight.


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## Knight511 (Nov 26, 2010)

One last note.... don't spend ALL you have on the bike.... you are going to need to build some clyde friendly wheels because those cute XC racing wheels.... yeah..... not gonna last.  I am dealing with wheels issues right now.... it hits close to home. Build a good set of wheels with good rims and good hubs and you will never have a problem.


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## Live2rideUtah (Jan 3, 2012)

Do you have to have a 29er or can you branch out and go with a 26 inch wheel?


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## AdmChr (Oct 10, 2009)

Thanks for the suggestions Knight. I know that Light parts aren’t the best at my weight, and I've been shaving the weight off starting at 334 down to 291 but it's a battle recently. I don't want to have some bomb proof 45lb tank made to huck off 12ft cliffs just to ride rail trails and flowing single track so I guess I'm looking for a happy medium. The Rip9 looks pretty sweet and seems like it would have a better leverage ratio compared to the SF100 and TBc. Unfortunately the only Niner dealer near me can only order the bikes and do not stock (or demo) them, so I would be in the same boat as the Santa Cruz (no test fitting, demo, etc). That’s why I feel like I'm stuck between choosing between Trek and Specialized since that's the only dealers near me. 

Now I'm just so dang undecided on which would be best for me. Maybe I should just get a nice light carbon hardtail and not worry about a FS bike now… ugh I just don’t know. :madman:


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## AdmChr (Oct 10, 2009)

Live2rideUtah said:


> Do you have to have a 29er or can you branch out and go with a 26 inch wheel?


I currently ride a 26in hardtail now and love it, but the more I read about the advantages of a 29er, the more it seems like that's the direction I should go for my type of riding (fast, long distance). But if you have something in mind that may solve my dilemma, please suggest it.


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## grizzlyplumber (May 15, 2008)

Im a huge Santa Cruz fan, having owned a Blur that I loved, and planning to buy a Tallboy after I get out of school, but at 3 bills I have my doubts about how that would hold up to you. I have heard that the Pivot 429 is a good option for bigger riders. I just would want something burly that isnt going to be breaking down or having issues. Good luck.


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## Knight511 (Nov 26, 2010)

I am kind of stuck in the same boat... after being so strongly advised against the SF100, I would spend more time on the Specialized bikes since they have a decent leverage ratio. There are no demo dealers around here for Niner either, so I hope to catch a demo day when they are around to at least get fitted for one....


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## AdmChr (Oct 10, 2009)

Knight511 said:


> I would spend more time on the Specialized bikes since they have a decent leverage ratio....


 Any idea on how much of a difference when comparing leverage ratios between the SF100 and the Epic? Would the brain still work as it should at my weight or would it not be as effective? Does anyone know of any posts from clydes riding the Epic and their thoughts on the suspension?

it seems like the Niner Jet9 RDO would be the ticket with it's suspension design, strong frame, and still pretty damn light... but I kind of don't like the look of the swoopy frame. If the dealer had one I would check it out though.


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## Knight511 (Nov 26, 2010)

MhzMonster said:


> Any idea on how much of a difference when comparing leverage ratios between the SF100 and the Epic? Would the brain still work as it should at my weight or would it not be as effective? Does anyone know of any posts from clydes riding the Epic and their thoughts on the suspension?
> 
> it seems like the Niner Jet9 RDO would be the ticket with it's suspension design, strong frame, and still pretty damn light... but I kind of don't like the look of the swoopy frame. If the dealer had one I would check it out though.


Epic is 100mm to 47mm or 2.12 to 1
SF100 is 110mm to 44.45mm or 2.47 to 1
JET9 is 80mm to 37mm or 2.16 to 1

As for how well the Brain will work with our weight, I cant tell you. Maybe there is someone that rides an Epic that will chime in... or maybe go to the Specialized forum and ask there?


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## Live2rideUtah (Jan 3, 2012)

Knight, elaborate on why you were so strongly advised to stay away from the superfly, especially since they are just barely coming out since being backordered in jan. thanks.


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

MhzMonster said:


> Also, I called around a few other shops to see if the had any bikes to demo for the weekend. I was telling him the bikes I was comparing and concerns with my weight etc. And he tells me that he would never recommend buying a bike with a carbon frame to ride on rail trails since the crushed limestone would chip away and weaken the frame from tiny rock strikes. I could see if I was in a rock garden and bottomed out them frame on a sharp rock, but will tiny pebble strikes damage the frame enough to weaken it and cause failure?
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus


A few strips of 'helicopter tape' placed strategically should alleviate any concerns about "tiny pebble strikes", not that I would be super concerned about that anyways.

If 75% or more of your riding is on a particular type of trail, I would buy the bike that is best for that, and let the 'tiny pebbles' fall where they may for everything else I ride.


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## Knight511 (Nov 26, 2010)

Live2rideUtah said:


> Knight, elaborate on why you were so strongly advised to stay away from the superfly, especially since they are just barely coming out since being backordered in jan. thanks.


From what I have read and been told, for a super clyde (like me or the OP), the bike just has too high of a leverage ratio at the rear. This translates into needing a MUCH high pressure to properly set sag. For example:

According to Trek's suspension calculator, the Superfly requires ~10 more psi than your body weight to set proper sag. The OP states he is 300. That means he would need at least 310psi to get into the right ballpark. Fox's max psi is 300.

Using the same suspension calculator, a non-DRCV Fuel (has the same shock as the SF100 and a better leverage ratio), only needs 185psi for 240 (that is 77% of the body weight). For the OP, this translates into roughly 231psi in the rear.

While using Specialized's set up guide, I also found that the Specialized Camber 29 (with Fox rear) only needed 74% of body weight. That is 222psi.

And one further.... Niner recommends a starting point of ~66% of body weight on the RIP9. Again, that is only 198psi in the Fox shock.

The rear shocks are tuned for a certain psi range and by tuned, I am refering more to dampening than spring rate. The closer you get to the MAX psi, the worse it will feel. There are certain things that can be done to help tune the shock, but the higher leverage ratio means you also need higher pressures to set sag.

As a super clyde, you want to stay as far away from max pressure as possible because the shock will last longer and ride better. I put some good faith in a company like PUSH giving me advice because they are a tuner. This is what they do and they aren't really brand loyal since they can tune anything. The large amount of money at "risk" when buying a new bike is a lot to run on a gamble, so I have just bee looking for advice from other super clydes.

Listening to a dude that weighs 240 is not a good idea... all of the big bikes can be set up properly for 240 where MANY cannot for 300. That is why weight is so important when talking about bikes for a clyde. The category encompasses a wide range from a 200 pound tall guy to a 400+ pound BIG guy.We had some decent conversation going about 300+ here: http://forums.mtbr.com/clydesdales-...lydes-over-300lbs-full-suspension-743267.html

To the OP, once you buy a bike and get it set up, I hope you will come back and let us other super-clydes know what you chose, how it rides and what your set up (psi and such) is.


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## AdmChr (Oct 10, 2009)

Knight511 said:


> To the OP, once you buy a bike and get it set up, I hope you will come back and let us other super-clydes know what you chose, how it rides and what your set up (psi and such) is.


Awesome post Knight.
I wish I could test out a Niner Rip9 and Jet9 but unfortunately that's not an option. I did start a thread in the Specialized forum but they all seem to think the Epic would be too weak for me to ride rail trails and swoopy single tracks... ? So I'm starting to think I just need to give up on a FS bike and just continue to enjoy my current hardtail, at least it seems strong enough not to snap like a twig when I sit on it let alone ride rail trails  , going on 1100 miles without any issues.

Sent from my Galaxy Tab


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## dnlwthrn (Jan 26, 2006)

Have you looked to see if Niner has any demo days coming up near you? They seem to have demos set up all over the country...

Having never ridden a Niner FS, I don't have any input on the Jet9. A buddy has a SIR9 though, and it's a great ride. 

Another thought: have you looked to see if any of the manufacturers have weight limits on their frames? I remember seeing something on a frame a while back, but it may have just been an RDO frame...


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## Knight511 (Nov 26, 2010)

Most mfg's limit their frames to 300. Turner and Niner do not. Not sure about Specialized... Trek limits any help to 249lbs and claims to not warranty over 300.

All of this relies heavily on your LBS though. A good one will stand behind you and help you out.

MhzMonster: As for shying away from FS, don't. Just don't get into a rush to buy. Wait until the shops has bikes that you can test out (on a trail preferably). Wait for them to get a Camber 29 in the right size.... try out the SF100 on the trail.... try out the Epic.... etc etc. A well respected shop in my area told me flat out that I would really need a bike like the Epic to help fight pedal bob at my size. I asked about it not being strong enough and was told that I would need to replace the stock wheels and would be totally fine. Talk with your LBS and ask them specific questions about frame warranty and your weight. They are the ones that will have to be your champion with Specialized, not the MTBR forum.

FWIW, I was told by my LBS that they would fully stand behind me on a SF100 even if I had to use pressures higher than the limits.... I don't like the sound of that, so I am not sold on the idea. I have been eying the hardtail Trek SFs though....


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## jrnyc789 (Apr 25, 2012)

*Opinions*

so since im new i cant start my own thread and this seemed like the best i can find to post this question so.....i been looking for a month and i found two bikes that i like but cant choose between the two :madman: one is the jamis exile sport 2012 and the other is the specialized hardrock sport disk...any opinions will be appreciated and thanks in advance


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## GOTA (Apr 21, 2011)

jrnyc789 said:


> so since im new i cant start my own thread and this seemed like the best i can find to post this question so.....i been looking for a month and i found two bikes that i like but cant choose between the two :madman: one is the jamis exile sport 2012 and the other is the specialized hardrock sport disk...any opinions will be appreciated and thanks in advance


Most low end bikes use similar components. Ride them both and see which one fits you better.


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## AdmChr (Oct 10, 2009)

Here's an update:
Well, once I finally decided I would purchase a 2012 Epic Expert Carbon, they were no where to be found and had been on back order from the manufacture for quite some time (just my luck). After almost 2 months of waiting, my LBS called yesterday and said that Specialized had shipped my Epic and it should be here in about a week. I'll try and post some photos and let you know how it feels after a few rides.


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## Knight511 (Nov 26, 2010)

All right you! That is one of my bikes I am interested in. Once you get it and get it set up, let us know what kind of PSI you are using in the back.... I like the Epic.... it matches my riding style.... but I am scared of a light XC bike.

And very good to hear that you are getting your new toy....  I can't wait until I get to get one.


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## AdmChr (Oct 10, 2009)

*Epic Photos of my new Epic!*

Here are some photos of my new ride, while it's still new. I got it mostly setup and did a quick shake down test and bed the brake pads in a bit, but plan to put some miles on it today. I'll post back and let you know how it feels. I hope you enjoy the photos.

Click the photos for a larger view or click here to view all the photos and more as a fullscreen slideshow.













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## danmtchl (Sep 18, 2004)

Okay is it me or do you have R1 levers with RX calipers? Nice ride though. I have Formula brakes and love them.


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