# Why are E-Bikes the best thing to ever happen to bicycling?



## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Now tell us...


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

*E-Bikes the best thing to ever happen to bicycling?*

No one ever said.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Quietly and efficiently allow me to perform errands more rapidly should expediency be valued. Allow my wife and me to bike camp while toting a bunch of gear.


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

NEPMTBA said:


> Why are E-Bikes the best thing to ever happen to bicycling?


Lance Armstrong.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Ask the Austrians 

Austrian E-MTB Sales Skyrockets - Bike Europe


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

They're certainly an awesome way to get people on bikes. Everyone ignored my post about this, but here it is again - SCIENCE!

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/07/06/the-surprising-health-benefits-of-an-electric-bike-2/

Getting millions of people out of their cars (at least when the weather is nice) and on e-bikes is going to be a HUGE win. And adding warm clothes/fenders/lights/etc isn't as hard to deal with, so I bet we'll see more folks headed to work in crappy conditions too because they'll be hooked.

The best thing to ever happen was probably the safety bicycle/chain drive. Or maybe pneumatic tires. I think I'd rather ride a solid rubber tire safety bicycle than a pneumatic tire ordinary... good arguments possible both ways on that one.

But if widely adopted, IMO this could be pretty huge and probably qualify as #3 on the list.

Note that I'm talking about bike paths/roads/commuting. I still think they're a potential disaster for mountain biking.

-Walt


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

Just add a cellphone to the bike cockpit, and go get some pokemon.


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## JVG1967 (Feb 22, 2014)

This should be entertaining ........


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## PinoyMTBer (Nov 21, 2013)

Flucod said:


> They are not bicycles, so your question is a strawman at best.


Here we go again...


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

PinoyMTBer said:


> Here we go again...


He does have a point, I would title the post *"Why are e-bikes the best thing to ever happen to motorcycling?"*

From a practical standpoint it just makes more sense to me.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

Walt said:


> They're certainly an awesome way to get people on bikes. Everyone ignored my post about this, but here it is again - SCIENCE!
> 
> http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/07/06/the-surprising-health-benefits-of-an-electric-bike-2/
> 
> ...


Agree^ Hopefully it will get some of those folks into bicycling as well.


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## Martin.au (Jan 1, 2006)

For mountain biking - I'm not sure they're great. There will always be idiots who ignore trail protocol, beef up their E-bikes and use them like motorbikes. This seems like a quick way to get either all, or hopefully just them, banned from trails.

For bicycling in general - If E-Bikes make commuting on bicycles more appealing to more people that is a really good thing. That helps city planning, the environment, the cycling community, etc.

Basically what Walt said.


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## Linktung (Oct 22, 2014)

Ebikes are the best thing to happen to bicycling provided they acomplish some of these goals:

1. Kill off strava competition, or the everyday is a raceday mindset.
2. Force the federal land managers to rethink their approach to bikes. A more modern and liberal attitude is needed in regards to trails.
3. Death to shuttling. (Cars are the worst form of motorized biking)
4. More consistant speeds on trails, means greater predictability and safety while providing an improved user experience.
5. Death to hike-a-bike. HIKING IS FOR DEER
6. Death to the Internal combustion engine as a means of singletrack exploration.
7. Death to wimpy flow trails with endless switchbacks. Boring!!!!


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

Linktung said:


> Ebikes are the best thing to happen to bicycling provided they acomplish some of these goals:
> 
> 1. Kill off strava competition, or the everyday is a raceday mindset.
> 2. Force the federal land managers to rethink their approach to bikes. A more modern and liberal attitude is needed in regards to trails.
> ...


How about something realistic?


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## dstepper (Feb 28, 2004)

So far it has been mostly negative from the MTBing crowd. I remember when snowboarding started...lots of negativity. Remember when the short boards where catching all the waves and cutting in front of the long boards. Those things seemed like they would never work out but in time they have. I hope the same will be true with E-bikes. 

Dean


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

People need to stop bringing up the snowboarding thing (and probably the short boards, too, though I don't have much experience with that since I'm a crap surfer). The controversy over them was *very* limited and nobody was arguing that they'd do anything like ruin access for skiers. The situation isn't even vaguely comparable.

-Walt


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

You can't overestimate the negativity around snowboards. They are still banned at some areas. On our mtn, at one point, boarders had to take a "test" to board on the big mountain. 

In real life the boarders are less likely to get us on the hill up here because it's not easy snowboarding. And of course you hear them. That's what scares people 

As far as the "access" threat. Please show one example of how e-mtbs have effected mtb access.

This is paranoia and intended or not, it's hypocrisy, since all the "bad behaviors" which might be carried out on a E-bike are already lionized on youtube where reckless mtb riding is on a wide and celebrated display.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I believe Alta and maybe Taos are the only places left, right? I was a skier in the 80s, and I remember this stuff pretty well. The controversy, such as it was, was over in a very short period of time. 

The snowboards thing is just not comparable. Seriously. They go the same speed and do the same things and use the same infrastructure. There's no chance of them going significantly faster that skiers because they have motors. 

-Walt


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## Raged (Jul 10, 2016)

It's a perfect rehab tool. I might look fine on the outside but my knee / hip are sub-par after being collected by a car last year... flipping over and landing hard sucks. At least I still have all my fingers... The ebike gives you confidence that you can go for a longer ride and actually make it home. I've done the call of shame once and had to call my brother in law for pickup in the ute after I tried to ride 50km and my knee literally just gave up. 

Now if I'm feeling the nerve pinch, I throttle a bit to get over the hill and then continue my journey. It's not a race for me... I'm just trying to enjoy the outdoors, and Its unfortunate that the longest lasting injuries are the ones you can not see.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

Best? They seem like a great fit for a commuter on paved roads or paths. Someone just starting out, maybe not that in shape. A commuter who has a long distance to ride or lots of stuff, or even better, someone looking to go car less/ car light. Think about a mom who cargo bikes the 2 kids to school and then gets 50 lbs of groceries. Seems like a good fit. Mt biking, not so much.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

To be fair, straight up motorcycles are a great thing for getting cars off the road, too. That doesn't mean I want them on singletrack. 

I do wonder - my old gas-gas trials moto was really quiet - probably quieter than a chainslapping mountain bike going downhill. It wasn't all that fast with stock gearing - maybe max of 25? And I'm positive I could go faster on a sustained DH on a mountain bike. 

It certainly didn't tear up trails any more than any number of other activities. So by the logic we've heard here, why shouldn't we let anyone who wants to ride their moto on trails? Only scofflaws will upgrade the stock gearing to go faster, right? People who are in poor shape or have an injury will be able to ride really far, right? 

-Walt


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Right?

35mph top speed, same price as a Levo






Or get one of these, it's half the price.


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## rmac (Oct 26, 2004)

Harryman said:


> Right?
> 
> 35mph top speed, same price as a Levo
> 
> ...


I have been kind of picturing the couple of available eFat bikes as having similar functionality as this EM 5.7 but with pedalability (albeit perhaps less than a bike without the motor). There are several places on trails I ride where I don't have the power to make a section that I am assuming an eMTB will help with. This would apply equally to jeep/motorcycle trails that I also sometimes ride (and may be future limited to). FWIW I am not expecting the ebike to be a complete trials bike but at least help with some of the moves on the MTB. We will see where it all lands...


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yep, if I lived somewhere with a lot of super steep and blown out 4x4 and moto trails - I'd be on an e-bike in a hot second. Could make that stuff really fun instead of unrideable.

Then again, a $1000 blown-out KDX plus $30 worth of handguards is a lot more capable...ICE, damn you, why are you so awesome yet so horrible?

On mountain bike trails, not so much.

-Walt


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## Empty_Beer (Dec 19, 2007)

Why are E-Bikes the best thing to ever happen to bicycling??

They are actually the worst thing to ever happen to mountain biking. But they are here. Gotta get in front of the potential problems instead of shake fists in the air though.


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

rmac said:


> I have been kind of picturing the couple of available eFat bikes as having similar functionality as this EM 5.7 but with pedalability (albeit perhaps less than a bike without the motor). There are several places on trails I ride where I don't have the power to make a section that I am assuming an eMTB will help with. This would apply equally to jeep/motorcycle trails that I also sometimes ride (and may be future limited to). FWIW I am not expecting the ebike to be a complete trials bike but at least help with some of the moves on the MTB. We will see where it all lands...


You're not the only one with that thought... it's a good fit for fatbikes.










These guys are working on a trials version as well.
The lightest electric freeride motorcycle in the world! - LMX Bikes


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Empty_Beer said:


> Why are E-Bikes the best thing to ever happen to bicycling??
> 
> They are actually the worst thing to ever happen to mountain biking.


Based on what?

Never did I see such a terrible thing have utterly no documented negative effects.

Wail away at the bogeymen 

Who knew intolerance, speculation, slurs and nasty insults were part of the "creed" for some mtb folks?

Thanks to e-bikes, now we know.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

uhoh7 said:


> Based on what?
> 
> Never did I see such a terrible thing have utterly no documented negative effects.
> 
> ...


Okay, enough histrionics. Motorized bicycles are not common enough to have much if any documented effects but a reasonable person can gleen information from past closures and prohibitions to mountain bikes to draw obvious conclusions about possible actions being brought to bear against cyclists because of ebikes. So enough of your sanctimony and ****-**** with the playing the Martyr. You have consistently spun the facts about ebikes. cloaking the truth in your rhetoric about 250 watt motorbikes when in fact the preponderance of them will be 750 watts and greater.


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## NEPMTBA (Apr 7, 2007)

Walt said:


> plus $30 worth of handguards-Walt


and a well used front Metezler found at a swap meet!...LOL


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

tiretracks said:


> Okay, enough histrionics.


Pot, Kettle. 

"a reasonable person can gleen information from past closures and prohibitions to mountain bikes to draw obvious conclusions about possible actions being brought to bear against cyclists because of ebikes."

Complete BS. You are confusing yourself with a reasonable person.

"when in fact the preponderance of them will be 750 watts and greater."
more BS. There are more than ten e-mtb makers, and all the majors are sticking to the euro regs except with a 5mph higher cutoff at 20mph.


L1050754-2 by unoh7, on Flickr

This arrived last nite 

I'm not disappointed


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

Funny, I seem to remember you telling us all about your friend building his 1000w e-mtb, and how he doesn't care that it will bother other users....

So tell us, how many e-bikers do you know? 5? 10? 

You like to make blanket statements about what will be produced in the future, yet your own small sample size of users has at least one that is going above 250w.


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## emjayel (Apr 21, 2007)

Linktung said:


> Ebikes are the best thing to happen to bicycling provided they acomplish some of these goals:
> 
> 1. Kill off strava competition, or the everyday is a raceday mindset.
> 2. Force the federal land managers to rethink their approach to bikes. A more modern and liberal attitude is needed in regards to trails.
> ...


1. Starve has nothing to do with the issue. Starve will adapt with an e-forum/category.
2.we can't get many of them to bring their thinking forward into the 1990's and allow mtb's...muddying the water further will do nothing but make it harder yet.
3. People will still shuttle. What we need is a tesla van...then we can be smug about shuttles. Besides, how big a part of the mtb community shuttles their rides day in and day out? Surely there are lower hanging fruit to pluck in the interest of saving earth!
4. Oh, bull! You really expect me, or anyone, to ride one of these at anywhere below its design capability? Most of us ride to push the limits. Giving us a motor will just allow us to expand the size of the envelope. Look at the cars on the roadway with all the new safety features...you know the best safety feature we could ever possibly implement? SLOW DOWN. Yet here we are with higher speeds on our main roads.
5. Hikeabike just means you need more practice. Do you really think an ebike is going to turn you into a Danny Macaskall?
6. The trails are already not allowed to be explored by ICE's.
7. Then go somewhere else and ride trails you like. No reason for you to ride trails you don't like...nor for you to destroy trails we like to ride.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah, people are going to ride as fast as possible. Period. Anyone that says otherwise is delusional. That's what almost everyone does now on both human powered mountain bikes AND throttle-twisting motos, why would something that splits the difference work any differently?

-Walt


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## Harryman (Jun 14, 2011)

Emtbs started out, just like here, appealing to those who were limited on a normal mtb, either by age or infirmity. Conservative emtbs have been the bulk of those sold until the tech improved to become attractive to those who like to go fast. Pro enduro racers use them so they can practice railing turns uphill, and to fit in more laps on a DH run for example. Performance emtbs are a new and emerging catagory and one that I believe will grow.

From:Haibike 2016 lineup at Eurobike | DERESTRICTED

"_The market for ePerformance mountain bikes is growing, and growing rapidly along with the amount of offerings from Haibike and their competitors. Having pretty much single handedly created the ePerformance mountain bike segment, Haibike have had many more years than the others to dial in their bikes and there is a noticeable drive and pioneering spirit from within Haibike and all those involved in the company to keep pushing to create ground breaking new products and to stay ahead of the competition into the future.

Guido Tschugg comes from a BMX, 4Cross, freeride, Downhill and motocross background and is bringing the style and skills he learned from these other disciplines to the new sport of ePerformance mountain biking and pushing the limits of what these bikes are capable of.

Because the sport is still so new, there is so much potential for discovering what can be done on them, and where the products will develop in the future. What is so rad about Guido's Haibike XDURO is that he can use the 200mm of travel and dedicated DH geometry to charge the downhill's as well as any World Cup DH bike but can also ride back up to the top faster and with greater ease than you could on even the lightest XC bike. This opens up a whole new world of terrain that was formerly too slow and hard to climb up on a DH bike, and can be charged back down on better than even a well dialed enduro bike. Lift access for downhills is no longer required, and if you don't live somewhere near a lift you can now stop bugging your mother or girlfriend or wife to drive you to the top of your nearest hill for you to get your downhill fix.

ePerformance bikes are not exactly a replacement for your 130-160mm trail/enduro bikes, but something new. Another option as it were, and one which coming from a mix of moto and mountain bike backgrounds ourselves we find extremely interesting._"

Keep in mind that these are 250W/16mph limited bikes in Europe, anyone think that one of these bikes reviewed in the article with 3x the power won't sell to those who want to go fast? 200mm on each end and costs less than a Levo....


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

d365 said:


> Funny, I seem to remember you telling us all about your friend building his 1000w e-mtb, and how he doesn't care that it will bother other users....
> 
> So tell us, how many e-bikers do you know? 5? 10?
> 
> You like to make blanket statements about what will be produced in the future, yet your own small sample size of users has at least one that is going above 250w.


Clutching to this silly argument is vindicating the sierra club view of mtn bikers: some will always go too fast, so let's ban them all. Congratulations. 

Yes I have one friend who by chance is building a 1000w bike. It's not working and the project is parked for a while LOL. My other friend who actually picked this bike from all the options, has one just like it coming next week.

What do you think a 1000watts is on a bicycle? Mad Max death machine? The federal gov draws a line at 750W, but states differ. Idaho is 2hp and 30moh max speed. 2hp +1400ish watts. My Ktm 250, by comparison, makes 37285watts. It makes noise, it makes smoke. That's the idea of what a "motorized two wheel vehicle" was in the mid-60s, when dirt bikes began to be in common use in the NF.

This is an electric mountain bike:
Breather by unoh7, on Flickr

DSC09292 by unoh7, on Flickr

DSC09294 by unoh7, on Flickr

It has nothing really in common with a motorcycle, it handles exactly like a mtb: in this case: super grippy, plush, forgiving and very fun 

What does it feel like? Mountain Biking. 

But way less scary


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

uhoh7 said:


> It has nothing really in common with a motorcycle,


Yes it does, a motor.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

1000W is indeed pretty scary on a MUT with blind corners. That will let you go WAY fast all over the place. Did you watch Harry's video?

It's absulutely true that people ride mountain bikes to go fast and enjoy the thrill. That's why limiting them to human power only is so crucial to preserving trail access - speeds (and bike weights/capabilities) are inherently limited by the power source and the need to get to the top before descending. 

Again: the fact that going uphill on a mountain bike is exhausting and slow is a GOOD thing. Take that out of the picture and there's really not much that distinguishes us from motos in terms of impact on other users.

-Walt


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## emjayel (Apr 21, 2007)

Nice Datsun.

Love the name of the first bike photo in the field...'breather'...with 1k on tap, I can't imagine needing much of a breather in the traditional mtb sense of the word!

I'd be willing to bet your KTM is plush, grippy, fun, and forgiving, too. Heck, it's only a 2fiddy...very nearly a toy! If you don't find it all of these things, I'd be more than happy to take it off your hands so you can have more time to enjoy your Datsun.

And I absolutely guarantee I can scare the living crap out of myself and every single trail user I encounter by coming around an uphill blind corner completely silent at...what...35? What does 1k watts get you?


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## Erock503 (Oct 20, 2014)

No dog in this fight, couldn't afford an e-bike even if I wanted one. I ride for fun _and_ exercise though, so I haven't had any interest in them. After seeing that video though, I'm thinking people better figure out how to make it work with each other, because I don't see tech like that going away anytime soon. That's a game changer for a lot of people.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Well, electric dirtbikes have been around for a while, and they haven't been game changers because they're confined to motorized trails. The question is whether adding pedals to a motorcycle is a "game changer". To me, it's basically just a motorcycle with pedals on it.

-Walt


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## Erock503 (Oct 20, 2014)

Walt said:


> Well, electric dirtbikes have been around for a while, and they haven't been game changers because they're confined to motorized trails. The question is whether adding pedals to a motorcycle is a "game changer". To me, it's basically just a motorcycle with pedals on it.
> 
> -Walt


I definitley get what you're saying, and understand the argument. However, it looks enough like a regular MTB that most people where I live wouldn't even know it's an e-bike. No smoke, no noise, and pedals would fly under the radar pretty easily around here. That is, until you see it climbing an 70deg incline like its nothing, lol.


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Walt said:


> To me, it's basically just a motorcycle with pedals on it.
> -Walt


I ride motorcycles all the time. My bike is nothing like them. I ride mtbs and have since the 80s: it's everything like them.

Repeating the word "motor" motor, and moto really has no effect on the reality of the electric mountain bike.

Obstinate negativity about a new reality is no service to "the community", just the opposite.

When the Sierra Clubbers got mtbs banned from wilderness, at least they were trying to protect some interest besides their own: the wild country. Over-zealous, mis-guided, maybe. But e-hate for those who partake is entirely self serving. Not trying to protect the backcountry, but protecting their "own" little dirt scars across it, lest some "other" somehow effects where they ride their bikes, by confusing the hikers into to thinking mtbs are worse than they are? Then those hikers get the mtbs banned?

You just can't make this sort of contorted paranoia up.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

uhoh7 said:


> I ride motorcycles all the time. My bike is nothing like them. I ride mtbs and have since the 80s: it's everything like them.
> 
> Repeating the word "motor" motor, and moto really has no effect on the reality of the electric mountain bike.
> 
> ...


No paranoia, pragmatism.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

I've said many times I think there is a place for e-mtbs. But the place is NOT everywhere bikes can go. Starting on motorized trails and seeing how things work is a smart way to make sure there aren't any access problems caused by any number of potential abuses of the technology. 

I don't ride motos anymore but I have to say - they're a lot like bikes, just a lot faster going uphill and on the flats. I raced a lot of enduros and hare scrambles and it's the same feeling, same basic skills, etc. I used to train for mountain bike racing on a moto, and vise versa. They crossover perfectly. Motos just have more power and in some places (though not all) more speed. Adding electric (or gas) power to a 2 wheeled vehicle makes it... a motorcycle. 

I much prefer e-bikes to ICE motos on a philosophical level, but it's ludicrous to say they're not comparable. They're motor driven 2 wheeled vehicles. Claiming otherwise just makes your other more reasonable arguments less credible.

-Walt


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

NEPMTBA said:


> Now tell us...


Because I enjoy riding mine soooo much. That's why. Personal enjoyment. So much fun, I don't really even ride a regular bike anymore,..... boring.

Because I love the challenge of riding fast....all of the time.

Because ebikes make me ride at average speeds even faster than professionals.... I am not a pro, never was, and at this point, never will be, but it's just so much fun to ride and feel like one. Everytime I get on my ebike I feel like I am riding like Ned Overend in his prime....because I actually am. Its a great feeling.

Because ...I could go on forever. Ebike's Rock. My expereince is that those that don't agree, don't actually ride one, or they are riding the wrong one, or they don't have the skills to ride one (fast that is).


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

^ well, there it is.


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## Bikedriver (Jun 11, 2016)

Walt said:


> I've said many times I think there is a place for e-mtbs. But the place is NOT everywhere bikes can go. Starting on motorized trails and seeing how things work is a smart way to make sure there aren't any access problems caused by any number of potential abuses of the technology.
> 
> I don't ride motos anymore but I have to say - they're a lot like bikes, just a lot faster going uphill and on the flats. I raced a lot of enduros and hare scrambles and it's the same feeling, same basic skills, etc. I used to train for mountain bike racing on a moto, and vise versa. They crossover perfectly. Motos just have more power and in some places (though not all) more speed. Adding electric (or gas) power to a 2 wheeled vehicle makes it... a motorcycle.
> 
> ...


Come on now , That;s funny. " Motorized vehicle" really ?

Do you know the definition of a "motor" (Webster's is a good place to start). mainly it's anything "that imparts motion" by a transfer of energy, regardless what form of energy it is.

So, Yep, you are a motor, by definition (even though a weak one, < 200 watts)

How about the definition of a "vehicle" (hint, a bike could be one)

How about the definition of "motion" (hint, kinetic energy.)

A bike has always been a "motorized vehicle" and we have always been limited to < 200 watts or so via human energy to drive the vehicle. Just because the "vehicle" now has 500 watts or so, all the sudden its a "motocross bike." Makes no sense.

IF that is the case, next time I see "no motorized vehicles", I should get off my bike and walk...cuz if I pedal, then I am a "motor" using a "motorized vehicle."


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## d365 (Jun 13, 2006)

Look up "Broken Record Player" in Webster it will have this forum somewhere in it.


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## formula4speed (Mar 25, 2013)

Bikedriver said:


> Come on now , That;s funny. " Motorized vehicle" really ?
> 
> Do you know the definition of a "motor" (Webster's is a good place to start). mainly it's anything "that imparts motion" by a transfer of energy, regardless what form of energy it is.
> 
> ...


If that's your logic, then you are the motor, so no you can't get off and walk your bike either because you the motor are still imparting energy to walk. A bike isn't a source of energy that imparts motion until you add the electric motor to it.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

The humans-are-motors thing is great. Why don't you try that out in court after you poach some wilderness trails in your F350...

That might be the most idiotic thing I've heard on this thread. 

-Walt


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Bikedriver said:


> Because I love the challenge of riding fast....all of the time.
> 
> Because ebikes make me ride at average speeds even faster than professionals.... I am not a pro, never was, and at this point, never will be, but it's just so much fun to ride and feel like one. Everytime I get on my ebike I feel like I am riding like Ned Overend in his prime....because I actually am. Its a great feeling.


Yep, they are faster, and more thrilling, and more fun. Just like ... wait for it... motorcycles!

I'm glad we're at last being honest about this. E-bikes are faster and people ride them to go faster and work less hard (or work the same and go much faster).

-Walt


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## rider95 (Mar 30, 2016)

Walt said:


> I've said many times I think there is a place for e-mtbs. But the place is NOT everywhere bikes can go. Starting on motorized trails and seeing how things work is a smart way to make sure there aren't any access problems caused by any number of potential abuses of the technology.
> 
> I don't ride motos anymore but I have to say - they're a lot like bikes, just a lot faster going uphill and on the flats. I raced a lot of enduros and hare scrambles and it's the same feeling, same basic skills, etc. I used to train for mountain bike racing on a moto, and vise versa. They crossover perfectly. Motos just have more power and in some places (though not all) more speed. Adding electric (or gas) power to a 2 wheeled vehicle makes it... a motorcycle.
> 
> ...


 I was a state champ open class always a top ten in my state motorcross and if you think my e bike is any thing like my KTM or yz450 that's laughable , it does feel just like my MT bike with super man legs .


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

My point is just that the skills transfer over nicely and they feel similar to ride at speed (to me). My experience is with trail riding/hare scramble type stuff, though, not MX. MX is pretty much a totally different sport.

Sounds like you were quite the stud. Kudos.

-Walt


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

emjayel said:


> Nice Datsun.
> 
> Love the name of the first bike photo in the field...'breather'...with 1k on tap, I can't imagine needing much of a breather in the traditional mtb sense of the word!
> 
> ...


TY for kind words on my 240 

1k watts is less than 2Hp 

again the KTM has 50. Yes it is fun to ride, but a PITA to keep fully ready. Those bikes go through tires, chains, sprockets, wheel bearings, clutches....every season. Mine is about 225lbs wet and loaded with fuel. A log? If alone it can be very scary because the bike is top heavy and wants to fall over. If you are with several friends it's OK. Mine has a quiet muffler and I turn the engine off downhill, but the noise and vibrations are annoying. Range: that is long. Longer than you can ride on ST.

Ready for Action by unoh7, And of course you can carry alot, and wear good protection, unlike the nutty mtb game where everybody rides buck naked except if they are DH from a chairlift.

Now when there is lots of trees down, nasty climbs, snow.....

DSC08434 by unoh7, on Flickr
That bike is 160 LBS 300cc, very low CG, and handles fantastic on ST. Range as shown is about 6 hours, after which you are tired  Can't carry so much but still plenty. You ride with protection. You are ready to spend the night if you need to.

and then we have....I need to think of name for it 


DSC09321 by unoh7, Big Wheel.

The pedal assist is very nice but what really makes this bike is the 3" 27+ wheels and tires. They dwarf my motorbike tires. 

They roll so so sweet, I can't believe it. This bike is a totally different tool than the motos or my mtb, I'll use it closer in, because for one thing the range is one normal mtb ride. How many times did I slam my pedals today? I'll need new ones soon. I figured out what the purpose of "high" power is today, it's for steep starts in low gear, or steep technical crawls. While I am riding naked, I don't go that fast, and you really can't on most ST go any faster than a MTB. Those rad climbs in high? 8 mph at best. If somebody is out there flying on one, it's a very open trail, or a two-track.

You can ride at anytime of day. No more fear the heat. It's cooler than my motorbikes, cause I'm wearing little. I did have some 20 yard pushes up steep stuff, which I'd been worried about, but to my surprise the bike pushes very well. That's because you are fresh! 

Of course you can just ride it like your mtb, but here I will take many routes I would not with my normal bike because of the hard climbs, so it opens a new vista for me 

Some say they can't see the "upside" of allowing them on mtb trails. Here there is a huge upside. We have a ton of MTB trails and even in high season they are not busy. We live from tourists, many older, and many of us have knee replacements. What are we saving the backcountry for? The beetles? The fires? In our local context there is a huge upside to access. It may take some time, but I think we will get it. 

Classifying this bike as a "motorcycle" does not pass the smell test, once you take a ride  On the trail not a single mtb rider has noticed this bike is electric (many of our best mtb trails are motorized). I talked to several people at length....not a second look


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## emjayel (Apr 21, 2007)

I think 'Breather' is a fine name! LoL

1k watts only gets you 8mph on an incline? Surely you jest! That seems so....irrelevant...like, it makes the thought of 250watts not at worth the price tag!

You got some damn fine lookin toys there, my friend!

I suppose the question of emtb's could change given the density of the population-to-trails-use in your area. I'm on the San Francisco Bay Area. It's all pretty heavily impacted here with plenty of trail rights advocacy groups scrabbling for their slice of nirvana and not very interested in sharing. Anything that might muck up what little bit of support for our slice of the pie ...well, I for one will be hesitant to let it happen without a bit of kicking and screaming. I may be :madman:, but there it is.


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## life behind bars (May 24, 2014)

uhoh7 said:


> Classifying this bike as a "motorcycle" does not pass the smell test,


Classifying it as a "motorbike" does.


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## Carl Mega (Jan 17, 2004)

uhoh7 said:


> again the KTM has 50.
> Mine is about 225lbs wet and loaded with fuel


I think you are taking some liberties w/ your numbers. KTM 250 2-smoke (even stripped down SX) has a claimed DRY weight of 225. Aside from the obvious weight of oils and fuel - yours has a lot of extra crap on it that I guarantee the factory didn't include to get their numbers.

Also - while the recent 2-smoke SX 250 models have some people claiming 50HP - those are well (perfectly) tuned and not measured at altitude. If yours is a different model (XC, XC-W), well - just call me skeptical. If you actually had it on a dyno - then I'd believe it - otherwise - just interweb numbers.

My actual point is that 50HP is a massive (MX race ready) number for a dirt bike. There are tons of ripper bikes out there that have like 37HP or lower. So when we are talking power/weight ratios between traditional dirt bikes and ebikes - it's a bit disingenuous to to be using the high water marks for either type of bike (2000watt / 50 HP).

Regardless, you have nice bikes. Your trials bike sort of makes me miss my Montessa 315.


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## fos'l (May 27, 2009)

Sorry to hear that emjayel; doesn't seem fair that one area of the state is bereft of off road opportunity and another has too much. Would fight like you if it were like that down here too.


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## Walt (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah, you could operate a nuclear powered excavator in ID and nobody would bat an eye. 

Bay area, on the other hand, you can (no joke) get arrested at night by rangers with IR spotter scopes. 

-Walt


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## 92gli (Sep 28, 2006)

Nevermind...


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## uhoh7 (May 5, 2008)

Well 5 ST rides now on my Haibike Pedelec and compared to my mountain bike, a 2009 Mojo SL, some "e-vantages" are apparent:

Coordination and attention to the trail is enhanced, simply because high physiological demands are not a distraction. Riding is a cool affair, so you can ride in the heat, and you can ride with protection much more comfortably. You can carry what you like, which means enhanced safety in the backcountry, for sure. So I take my SPOT, and fleece enough to spend a night exposed if I have to. And lots of other things I can take: full frame camera, tools, lights, water filter, and food. That kind of load would be a major PITA on the mojo.

This evening I noticed a few more pluses: you will be putting your feet down much less: that's because you reach a balance threshold, about 3-4 mph, much easier on technical ST. Hence the low speed dabs are reduced by alot.

And if it's fire season, another benifit: in smoky air you feel better not blowing like mad. Tonite we had the first smoke of the year, and it will be a factor many days from now till September.


Western Fires by unoh7, on Flickr

Also, I find I can look around alot easier than either my mtb or motos. Again stability is easier to find when you don't have to press down as hard. Yet speeds are mellow.

My ride this evening would have been boring and short on a moto, and utterly brutal on a mtb. On the e-mtb, it was great fun


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> I believe Alta and maybe Taos are the only places left, right?


Actually - Taos caved about 8 years ago.

Alta, Deer Valley, and Mad River Glen are the only one who still ban snowboarding.



Walt said:


> I was a skier in the 80s, and I remember this stuff pretty well. The controversy, such as it was, was over in a very short period of time.


Breckenridge started allowing snowboarding in 1984.

It was 1997 before Aspen allowed it, and another couple years before Keystone did.

I would say the majority of resorts didn't allow snowboarding until a good 5-6 years after I started snowboarding. I wouldn't call that a "very short period of time".


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## aborgman (Apr 18, 2016)

Walt said:


> Well, electric dirtbikes have been around for a while, and they haven't been game changers because they're confined to motorized trails.


No - they largely haven't been game changers because ICE dirtbikes provide better performance and range for a lower cost.


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