# Suntour XC Pro - As good as Shimano XT?



## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

Not quite as good.  


Kidding. Ran full Suntour XC Pro on one of my Slingshots for a while and I liked it ok. It's a bit tempermental, but the quality is great and it's pretty light weight stuff. Grease Guard is a nice feature.

But at the end of the day, I'm a Shimano guy...even now.

Just my $.02


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## R332 (Jul 26, 2004)

Back in 1989-1994 period I always rode Deore XT mixed with assorted high-end specialty parts but I never ventured into the land of Suntour. I am part way through my "retro" build-up and have been offered a brand new Suntour XC Pro gruppo. Were these XC Pro parts as good as the XT parts or should I old off until I find the old faithful XT stuff? Anyone want to trade me a brand new (1992?) Suntour XC Pro gruppo for XT parts?


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

For whatever reason when I used to race I was a Suntour snob. Rumpfy is certainly correct to say it is tempermental. It has a nice style though. When the parts were interchangeable, my opinion is that the Suntour pedals, cranks and brake levers were better, the cantis were a draw, Shimano rear shifting kicked ass but Suntour's front derailleur was boss.

The group will certainly look nice on a VRC resto.


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## balcs (Apr 6, 2005)

I had XC Pro parts on a 1990 Klein. As noted above, the grease-injection feature was extremely cool. Actually, I think the Grease Guard pedals from this group sell for silly amounts on ebay still. I really liked the brake levers too -- still have a pair someplace. Agreed that the front derailleur was nice. The rear shifting, on the other hand, was pretty unimpressive. It never really worked with the internal cable routing on the Klein frame. My impression was that Suntour tried to build their index shifting with very tight tolerances, so if it was adjusted precisely, it would shift without having to overshoot with the lever. Shimano shifters of the day were built so that you had to push the lever a little past the detent to get it to shift, and then it would spring back a little when the shift was over. It seems like Suntour's plan was great in principle, but never really worked very well. One problem was that the original Suntour cassette was not ramped a la Hyperglide (or I think it was Superglide, or maybe something else, at that point). The first thing I tried was adding a Hyperglide cassette, which as I recall involved some sort of machining to get the splines to fit on the Suntour hub, but that didn't work very well. After about a year I got rid of the whole shifter/derailleur setup and replaced it with XT. Anyway, if the frame has relatively normal cable routing (i.e. not internal), I'd say go for it. If you can find one of those 'bassworm' cable tension boosters that Grip Shift sold in the mid-'90's (or fabricate one out of some surgical tubing), I bet that would help the shifting a lot.


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## robinmiller (May 31, 2005)

I've never had a chance to ride any Suntour gear, but i remember that XC pro seemed to be regarded as on par with XT. Not anywhere near as popular though.

One other thing i recall, since people are commenting on the XT rear shifting: One year, i think it was 1994, Kona was a holdout for thumbshifters. They specced Suntour XC Pro thumbies on an otherwise Shimano drivetrain, and it apparently worked well enough to sell on the production machines.

Anyone tried this, or rode one of those Konas? I think the Kula model had this setup, at least.


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## RobynC (Feb 14, 2004)

Totally agree with these comments, esp re: use on Kleins. In 1990 I swapped out the XT front and rear derailleurs, shifters, and brake levers on my Pinnacle for XC Comp and XC Pro. Back then everyone was crazy about weighing each and every part. I think the Suntour stuff was marginally lighter. For the most part it worked really well. The so-called "Accushift" derailleur was especially problematic, however. I used to run it with a Suntour Winner freewheel. I think I only got it set up to shift "perfectly" once or twice, and every time after that it was always flawed somehow, not in a major way, but just enough to bug you. It is nice stuff nevertheless, and if you can get it I say go for it. It still has a following.


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## uphiller (Jan 13, 2004)

I think the Suntour thumbshifters, the Shimano-compatible ones from the 95 season, are some of the best shifters ever made. The front shifter has a very nice micro click feature which allows you to trim the front derailleur to get rid of drag. The XT front thumbie had just plain friction shifting which was ok, but the Suntour one had a much lighter, snappier feel.
I am kind of surprised about everyone saying how nice the Suntour levers were. I really preferred the SLR Plus feature of the Shimano levers, which gave both double the rim clearance and double the braking power of a conventional lever.
I still run XC Pro thumbies, but because I am living in rocky terrain I may switch to triggers soon.


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## bushpig (Nov 26, 2005)

Another thing about the Suntour thumbies is that they were designed to always have some amount of indexing, even in friction mode. This is true for both front and rear shifters. You had to have some of the "friction feel" but the soft clicks sped up that process.


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## Welsh Dave (Jul 26, 2005)

bushpig said:


> Another thing about the Suntour thumbies is that they were designed to always have some amount of indexing, even in friction mode. This is true for both front and rear shifters. You had to have some of the "friction feel" but the soft clicks sped up that process.


I just got a pair pf the thumbies & they seem to have a very light action, compared with Shimano LX, XT and even the newer roadie bar-cons. I also have the front mech and chainset that came on another bike, but I just realised that I let the buttery smooth Grease-Guard headset go a few months back. Doh!

DM


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

*here is the deal w/ suntour..*

it's more elegant than shimano.. until the first generation XTR... that group was the nec plus ultra of mtn biking. and it cost like it as well.
suntour wasn't that pricey but sure was cool to look at. the thumbies are wonderfull. cranks are top model beauty. ditto for front derrailleur .. but at the end of a muddy ride, you can't argue w/ shimano XT shifting and breaking. and you still could parade in XTR if you had the guts to break the bank.


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## ssmike (Jan 21, 2004)

Kinda like asking the question "is Campy Record better than Shimano Dura Ace?" No. It's just different and an option.


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## Tracerboy (Oct 13, 2002)

When I used to run Suntour XC Pro Microdrive on my Grove X, nothing could persuade me to ever switch. I thought the shifting was buttery, almost like well-broken-in Campy Record shifters. And I loved the tiny chainrings and gears; the finish on the crankset was very elegant, as someone noted. Problem was, I had to un a Shimano front der because of this weird bolt-on configuration that Grove had, and a Shimano U-brake. On most of the Suntour-equipped bikes I've seen, there's almost always a litte Shimano mixed in there. Suntour wasn't quite as good (IMHO) at nailing the "full group" menatlity and bringing it to execution. Even my '88 Fisher CR 7 with the 6000 XCD group had a non-Suntour bottom bracket and headset.


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## Joules (Oct 12, 2005)

the microdrive XC pro is my fav group of all time. Unfortunately even if I could get my hands on a group I don't think I'd ever ride it because once it breaks, that's it. 


So that's me saying no, XC pro is not as good as XT, it's way better.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

R332 said:


> Back in 1989-1994 period I always rode Deore XT mixed with assorted high-end specialty parts but I never ventured into the land of Suntour. I am part way through my "retro" build-up and have been offered a brand new Suntour XC Pro gruppo. Were these XC Pro parts as good as the XT parts or should I old off until I find the old faithful XT stuff? Anyone want to trade me a brand new (1992?) Suntour XC Pro gruppo for XT parts?


My 2 cents.

I think when XC Pro came out it was about $100 more for a groupo than the XT. It was sold on more expensive bikes in the manufacturers line up...

It was great stuff but like everyone has said, but it didnt shift like Shimano. I also hated (with a passion) those foam covered levers. Awful feel. I did like the next version however with the light goldish ano on the levers. The shifters are nice, snappy, and lively and have the "overshift play" in them. Shimano's do not. Shimano had the floating pulley (probably a patent?) I think which took the place of the "floating shifter". I think XC Pro is great. The hubs, cranks, pedals were all top notch. Very smooth. If I was gonna build a 1990 race bike, it'd have a mixture of both groups, with of course Shimano's hyperglide and a Microdrive crank.


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## mwr (Jul 17, 2004)

Fillet-brazed said:


> If I was gonna build a 1990 race bike, it'd have a mixture of both groups, with of course Shimano's hyperglide and a Microdrive crank.


 Prototype MicroDrive of course, since it really didn't hit the streets until 1992 model year.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

mwr said:


> Prototype MicroDrive of course, since it really didn't hit the streets until 1992 model year.


Ooops. Yes, of course.


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## Pimpride (Nov 14, 2005)

*Deerhead XT*

I'm using a set of early c1985 or so, deerhead xt on a retro build. Has anyone used the early shimano XT set w/ thumbshifters and 10speed 2 ring front cranks. Is that set pre-index? The deerhead style is pretty cool.


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

Pimpride said:


> I'm using a set of early c1985 or so, deerhead xt on a retro build. Has anyone used the early shimano XT set w/ thumbshifters and 10speed 2 ring front cranks. Is that set pre-index? The deerhead style is pretty cool.


Deerhead or M700 was from '83-86 and was pre-index. A two chainring set up would work just fine.


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## balcs (Apr 6, 2005)

Pimpride said:


> I'm using a set of early c1985 or so, deerhead xt on a retro build. Has anyone used the early shimano XT set w/ thumbshifters and 10speed 2 ring front cranks. Is that set pre-index? The deerhead style is pretty cool.


OK, I might as well ask here as anywhere. The deerhead parts were also called 'Deore' at the time. What is the relationship between 'Deer' and 'Deore' ??


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## Winans (Jul 27, 2005)

*still ride it*

I have one bike that is full XC Pro except for the front derailleur - couldn't find one when I was building the bike. I love it. I think the rear derailleur and the cranksets in particular are some of the best quality equipment ever built. The fact that people were occasionally selling R. der's at bike swaps for $5-$6 a few years ago is even better.

I have many other bikes with various XC Pro equipment on them - lots of thumb shifters, rear derailleurs, cranks, hubsets ... good equipment. By that I mean versatile, very long lasting, and good performance.

My 2 cents. Scott


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## Fillet-brazed (Jan 13, 2004)

balcs said:


> OK, I might as well ask here as anywhere. The deerhead parts were also called 'Deore' at the time. What is the relationship between 'Deer' and 'Deore' ??


ya, Ive wondered that myself. Perhaps thats how deer sounds in Japanese?? Any Japanese speakers in the house?

Ive heard it called Stag, XT, Deore XT, M700, and Deerhead. Lots of names for one group...


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## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

I had an xc comp group for a while around 1991 or so. I remember liking it while it lasted... which wasn't that long. Durability didn't seem to be on par with shimano.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

lucifer said:


> I had an xc comp group for a while around 1991 or so. I remember liking it while it lasted... which wasn't that long. Durability didn't seem to be on par with shimano.


well.. i have a bike w/ xcd and x1(?) from 89 w/ push push shifters and it refuses to break.


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## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

colker1 said:


> well.. i have a bike w/ xcd and x1(?) from 89 w/ push push shifters and it refuses to break.


I guess I should qualify that by saying it was the front and rear derailleur that died on me. Of course I was real bad about mudding around back then. On the other hand the shifters are still perfect... in a box in my garage.


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## IF52 (Jan 10, 2004)

To speak to Lucifer's comments, we both lived in Georgia back then and that area has clay soil with lots of abrasive silica, mica, etc. Bushings and chains and such take a serious beating. From my memory the Suntour stuff was very nice and very well made, but the bushings/pivots just could not handle the abuse from the abrasive slurry we had to ride through at times. Derailleurs would get loose and sloppy very quickly. XT on the other had held up much better. My gripe with XT was that the shifter lever base clamp had very weak thread and were easy to strip, plus the bolt they shipped with was kind of short which exacerbated the issue. Easy enough fix by getting a tiny bit longer bolt and using blue thread locker. Also the XT brake lever pivot would get sloppy over time and the levers would flop around. I half agree about the foam on the XC Pro levers, but mostly because they scuffed too easily. I liked the length and angle though.

I personally hated the push push Suntour levers. I don't really care for either brand, but the push push Suntours got stiff quick and their throw made them uncomfortable to use, even with my large hands.

Regarding the word 'deore', rumor back in the day was that it meant deer in German or something. 1) I know deer in German is NOT deore, unless deore is colloquial for deer 2) why the hell would a Japanese company chose a German word to name a parts groupo? Some axis power holdover or something 

Also, IIRC, it is supposed to be pronounced deor-ay


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## lucifer (Sep 27, 2004)

IF52 said:


> To speak to Lucifer's comments, we both lived in Georgia back then and that area has clay soil with lots of abrasive silica, mica, etc. Bushings and chains and such take a serious beating. From my memory the Suntour stuff was very nice and very well made, but the bushings/pivots just could not handle the abuse from the abrasive slurry we had to ride through at times. Derailleurs would get loose and sloppy very quickly. XT on the other had held up much better. My gripe with XT was that the shifter lever base clamp had very weak thread and were easy to strip, plus the bolt they shipped with was kind of short which exacerbated the issue. Easy enough fix by getting a tiny bit longer bolt and using blue thread locker. Also the XT brake lever pivot would get sloppy over time and the levers would flop around. I half agree about the foam on the XC Pro levers, but mostly because they scuffed too easily. I liked the length and angle though.
> 
> I personally hated the push push Suntour levers. I don't really care for either brand, but the push push Suntours got stiff quick and their throw made them uncomfortable to use, even with my large hands.
> 
> ...


What is interesting though is that the sachs freewheels I ran back then are both still functioning flawlessly, albeit in limited use, and show very little wear. Their chains were the best too. I still run the old silver and black sedisport on my singlespeed.


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## Winans (Jul 27, 2005)

Sachs freewheels and Sedis chains wore very well - not surprised, good stuff.



lucifer said:


> What is interesting though is that the sachs freewheels I ran back then are both still functioning flawlessly, albeit in limited use, and show very little wear. Their chains were the best too. I still run the old silver and black sedisport on my singlespeed.


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## adamgent1 (Sep 26, 2005)

*Suntour XC Pro*

If you got offored a full XC Pro grouppo, I'd take it. Especially if it was originally speced on your rebuild.

I am in the middle of restoring a 92 Explosif Pro and in my nievity I bought a full XC Pro Groupo part by part. Ended up costing me a small fortune. Chainset set me back £115, pedals £70, hubs £60... All NOS and great looking kit, really nicely made but XT would have been easier and cheeper.

If you don't like it, sell it part-by-part - clearly some mug will pay over the odds for it!


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## R332 (Jul 26, 2004)

adamgent1 said:


> If you got offored a full XC Pro grouppo, I'd take it. Especially if it was originally speced on your rebuild.
> ...
> If you don't like it, sell it part-by-part - clearly some mug will pay over the odds for it!


Well I could let the complete brand new kit, including wheels, stem, seat, etc go for $550. Is that in the range?


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## meackerman (Mar 9, 2005)

great stuff. I had XC pro on my early 90's Mountain Goat WTR. The only thing we used to change was to spec a Shimano freewheel on the grease guard hubs, made the Suntour shifting work better.

I'd snap that group up in a heartbeat.


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## R332 (Jul 26, 2004)

meackerman said:


> I'd snap that group up in a heartbeat.


I already did  and I can get another one if anyone is interested!


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## lebikerboy (Jan 19, 2005)

The XC pro was a great grouppo but the rear derailleur didn't shift as well as Shimano XT.
The rear derailleur didn't have the floating pulley and I believe that made all the difference.


R332 said:


> I already did  and I can get another one if anyone is interested!


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## JoeCool148 (Sep 17, 2012)

I new to the forum. I have an 1991 CADEX CFM2. The rear derailleur is broken and I need to replace it. It is a Suntour XC-comp. How do I know if it is a RD-XC20-GTB (short cage)-GXB (long cage). And where would be the best place to start looking for a replacement.

Are there any suggestions? Are any of the current line of derailleurs compatible?

Thank you!


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

JoeCool148 said:


> I new to the forum. I have an 1991 CADEX CFM2. The rear derailleur is broken and I need to replace it. It is a Suntour XC-comp. How do I know if it is a RD-XC20-GTB (short cage)-GXB (long cage). And where would be the best place to start looking for a replacement.
> 
> Are there any suggestions? Are any of the current line of derailleurs compatible?
> 
> Thank you!


And this is the thread you brought back to life for that question? 

You can tell if its a long or short cage...by looking at your derailleur.
Lots to be had on eBay of similar make/model. 
For best results, find a period correct replacement in good working condition. Mixing old and new will lead you down an expensive road.


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## JoeCool148 (Sep 17, 2012)

Rumpfy said:


> And this is the thread you brought back to life for that question?
> 
> You can tell if its a long or short cage...by looking at your derailleur.
> Lots to be had on eBay of similar make/model.
> For best results, find a period correct replacement in good working condition. Mixing old and new will lead you down an expensive road.


Thank you for the info. I'm looking at my broken derailleur now, its not telling me if it is a long or short. Is there a more obvious way I can decipher Long from Short? I have no base line nor any other to compare with


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## yo-Nate-y (Mar 5, 2009)

Look at your derailleur and compare it to other examples you can find online?


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## 805MTB (Jul 4, 2010)

JoeCool148 said:


> Thank you for the info. I'm looking at my broken derailleur now, its not telling me if it is a long or short. Is there a more obvious way I can decipher Long from Short? I have no base line nor any other to compare with


measure the distance in mm between pulleys, center to center. I think I recently had a medium cage that measured 85mm.

post a photo of the derailleur.


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## djmuff (Sep 8, 2004)

Not the best place for this question... but I enjoyed reading this old thread.


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## colker1 (Jan 6, 2004)

djmuff said:


> Not the best place for this question... but I enjoyed reading this old thread.


yes.. i liked my replies too. i believe i may have gotten worse and dumber.


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## KDXdog (Mar 15, 2007)

I used both Shimano and Suntour, and liked Suntour thumbies the best. Agree with the floating pulley comment above.

But them again, I had great luck with X-rays! Yes, Gripshift & Gore-tex cables worked very well on my Klein.


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## Rumpfy (Dec 21, 2003)

colker1 said:


> yes.. i liked my replies too. i believe i may have gotten worse and dumber.


Same! I've definitely gotten grumpier.


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## mik_git (Feb 4, 2004)

thats awesome!


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