# the pro's do it...so...?



## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

Times have definitely changed! I am relatively new to trail building..got stuck in around 2007 when i moved to the PNW permamently (immigrant). Anyway..seems like i quickly adopted 'old school ettiquite' and am struggling to get it out of my system.

So dudes like Remy and Yoan are posting videos on Youtube. Sick videos...damn, I saw a new post last Friday and had found and ridden the trail within 48hrs...even though i totally disaprove of the videos and the implications for the trail. This is a whole discussion in itself..i mean wtf?

Today I have spent most of the morning trying to get new trails that were added to TF removed. They are in an unsanctioned area and while not "illegal" are definitely not sanctioned. The area will likely be sanctioned at some point in the future. As an admin i tracked the dude down and sent him a PM and he actually called me and explained that he "thought he was being helpful"....Classic. I wonder why he didnt stop and think, "If the builder spent weeks or months building this trail...I wonder why he didnt spent 10 more minutes and load it to TF"? Or did this dude once spend an hour building trail and now consider himself a builder and thus able to make these informed decisions? Cant answer those questions.

The second topic today was another mate calling and asking about a video that was posted...(of another 'secret' / old school trail...by another local dude)...and what he should tell the two OTHER dudes that have subsequently contacted him asking if he by any chance knows where the trail is. 

Is it time to friggin chill out - join FB / IG etc. and not give a Fck...or is there any merit in trying to hold back the tidal wave...I mean...whatever happens...the endpoint is inevitable IMO.

I cant take a chill pill as I got to work.


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

Where is the no trespassing sign posted?

Because it's on listed on Trailforks doesn't meant it's not available for riding does it? Me for instance, NEVER uses trail forks. However, I don't travel much and therefore have no need for trailforks. IF I am out some place and see a trail I'll probably ride it, unless it's blocked off or signed as no trespassing.


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## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

No such sign and i have no problem with people riding any trail built...just thinking about the communication / publication of trails that are local...underground...not sanctioned etc...if you find a new trail..ride it...enjoy it...tell your buddies about it...but post a video / add it to TF? etc..? 

I appreciate the reply as i am trying to get my own thoughts in order.


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## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

If trails can't be posted as public on the internet for fear of being discovered, they probably shouldn't have been built in the first place. 


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## cheezwhip (Aug 6, 2004)

They're all over Strava anyways - but yeah, TF does add more visibility.

TheSheriff has TF access and can probably delete stuff for you. Love your trails BTW.

Lots of stuff by RR that aren't on TF so I think it's ok to have bootlegged stuff removed.

Edit: just re-read your post noticed you're and admin...


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## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

Good point...and I agree..but consider:-

1) Trail built 20 yrs ago (illegal on state land). through yrs of dialogue with the forest service we have a status quo. Waiting next steps. Again...local / off the grid / secret - a beautiful forest and awesome experience. See many 5 people out there on a weekend.

Really necessary to post a video / add to a trail app ?

2) Legal area with sanctioned trails on state land. Parcels of land that have yet to be incorporated into the sanctioned area with old trails (and a couple new). All trails will lkely be sanctioned in the next 5 yrs. Working with land owners and advocacy groups. 

??

3) and then back to say Remy and Yoan....those BC trails are all 'grey' ..why not just let the status quo remain. Freeking rad trails deep out in the woods..they are EVEN on TF...just why create a 'commercial' and increase the traffic..why not savor it like a good bottle of wine and hope that it remains untouched and raw as possible.

I had a filmer and a pro biker ask if they could film one of the trails i built...I thought about who stood to benefit...definitely not myself or the trail or my buddies or any local person who rides the trail..so i declined. I knew those other dudes would gain something (more exposure / sponsors etc.).

Anyway...seems like the consensus so far is I am off base. interesting. 
I need to move with the times.


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## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

Yeagh bru! I got it all removed. All good. Just trying to understand why folks do it...must be like the desire to get a selfie and post to IG? Guessing.


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## GeePhroh (Jan 13, 2004)

RYNOFREERIDE said:


> If trails can't be posted as public on the internet for fear of being discovered, they probably shouldn't have been built in the first place.


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt because you obviously don't know the long, long history of trail-building out here in the PNW. But you really don't get it.


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## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

@gee_noflow

Haha...how many trails would we have?

and how the fck do you monitor activity on mtbr and find this random post?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Muttonchops said:


> Good point...and I agree..but consider:-


I don't see a grey area here.

* If no express permission to build trail, then it shouldn't be built.
* It doesn't matter how old it is, if the land manager does not officially acknowledge permission to ride it, then it shouldn't be ridden until that permission is publicly and officially acknowledged - UNLESS - the land manager operates on an "open unless officially closed" policy. MOST land managers operate on a "closed unless officially open" policy.


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## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

Harold said:


> I don't see a grey area here.


read the whole post dude...youre not getting it.

this is also not a post about whether a trail was built / whether its legal etc..

I am trying to UNDERSTAND why people feel the need to publicise and spread trail beta

I have walked the trail with the govt official...we have shared the gpx files with the forest service and signed letters of agreement. I am a TF administrator and work with the local advocacy group and the state land managers.

Ok...so why...do people need to post videos / strava / and add trails to TF ?

1. They dont realize the trail is unsanctioned - and they think they are contributing to the bike community?
2. They are nearing the end of a pro bike career and their sponsors are urging them to increase their presence on social media?

Dont challenge me on point 2. above...i heard it from the guy that signed XXX to YYY bike company.

I have answered the question myself...its really a moot point.

So the next question would be...should anyone (me?) care...and continue contacting people and removing what trails i do find? asking people to remove their media?

Its kind of pointless really.

Again...thanks for responding. Appreciate it. I realize we all have different oppinions and ideas and I am trying to clarify where i want to be on this topic..


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## GeePhroh (Jan 13, 2004)

Harold said:


> I don't see a grey area here.


Again, someone who doesn't understand how grey it is out here in the PNW. (pun intended)


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## evasive (Feb 18, 2005)

Muttonchops said:


> read the whole post dude...youre not getting it.
> 
> this is also not a post about whether a trail was built / whether its legal etc..
> 
> ...


People frequently suck, and do stupid things. I don't think you'll find a better answer to your question.

I haven't done it, but I *think* you can create a polygon in Trailforks and set it "sensitive" so no trails are added without approval.


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## tbmaddux (May 22, 2012)

You can leave the trail as it is on Trailforks, or you can delete it entirely. There are also a couple of other things you can do that I'm not sure you're aware of.

You can mark it as Unsanctioned. This adds a red text in the description that says "This trail is unsanctioned, use at your own risk!"

You can flag the trail as Closed/Decomissioned. This is useful if you want to keep the fact that it once existed around. Don't use this for temporary closures... use the trail report feature instead.

You can flag the trail as Hidden. Then only admins can see it. Also anyone who rides on it and uploads a ride log will have their track rendered invisible.

So, what to do... Do you have a relationship with the land manager(s)? What do they want? Can you make some suggestions to them?

More information from Trailforks here:
https://www.trailforks.com/help/view/22/

Hope this helps,


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## cheezwhip (Aug 6, 2004)

Let's take the use case at TKE: YewT00b'r and trailbullder collab'd and got it more publicity that (in part) led to closure. Sure there were other major factors at play but the TF and vid definitely did not help.

+1 vote to keep it off TF .

Yeah people are going to post about it but I think the RR area model is worth adhering to. Everybody knows and posts about the old stuff but they're not on TF.


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## RYNOFREERIDE (Feb 26, 2004)

Really does sound grey. I don't have any answers for you. All I can say is that the "why" they post it online is irrelevant. In this day and age it will continue to happen. We all know this. If you correct a few people and remove the content, someone new will stumble onto your trails and do the same thing. Just the way it is. 


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## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

Thx tb!

Already done all that. Everything is resolved.

the dude even called. I was able to edit the trails and unpublish them - and our local advocacy group actually took the lead. 

As i have tried to explain in this case the land manager even knows about the trails - but for now until things are settled we dont want them publicised.

As friends have pointed out to me the only thing you can REALLY do is continue to educate people. Speak to other riders (new riders) we see on local trails and make sure they know whats up. 

I am definitely always stoked to see new people on any trail i ride and always spread the love..but I think there should also be an effort to educate / inform. E.g. there are so many new cars at the trailhead each day and I am pretty sure people dont appreciate the history of many of these areas.


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## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

evasive said:


> People frequently suck, and do stupid things. I don't think you'll find a better answer to your question.


Word


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## Boulder Pilot (Jan 23, 2004)

I'm going to try and only address what I believe the OP is questioning: 

Question: Why do people bring attention to down low trails when it is common knowledge that doing such behavior will very well lead to the closing down of said trail and may also lead to a crackdown on other local unsanctioned trails?

Answer: Lack of respect. I was an old school trail builder. No dig, no ride was real. If you were extended the privilege of being "allowed" to ride and you brought or talked about the trail, you would not be viewed well within the "tribe". 

When social media allowed any person to make any statement without any need to provide any facts, allow any person to gain "cred" or "likes" by bringing attention to themselves through videos that expose the hard work of others, the days were numbered for long term clandestine trails. Other reasons being parenting and the US education system decided that all children are"winners" when the cold hard fact is no, some kids, maybe your kid, is not the sharpest tool in the shed and that allowing selfish behavior instead of acting like a parent and teaching your kid that sure, you can be an individual and act like that, but if you pull that sh!t in front of me you will learn the painful definition of the word "consequences".

I now work with Land Managers which monitor trail user forums such as this on, monitor Strava and similar sites, monitor TrailForks. At a BBQ not too long ago, a colleague mentioned how, I'll just say how unwise, a group of people that create so-called "secret trails" spend so much time and effort into broadcasting the "secret trails on multiple social media outlets. 

One last thing OP, if an unsanctioned trail is built in an unsanctioned area, that trail, by your definition, not mine, is a trail that lacks legal access designation. This is a whole discussion in itself..i mean wtf?


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## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

distantly related possibly?


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## Forest Rider (Oct 29, 2018)

If I understand you correct this is the situation:

I go out to the local trail head with a shovel and build a trail and do not add it to trail forks....I reserve the right to be upset that somebody is riding the trail I dug? Because the people on a bike should come across this amazing new trail -stop to check trail forks to see if it exists. If so, they shred. If it does not appear on trail forks the rider shrugs his shoulders and skips the trail?


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## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

Forest Rider said:


> If I understand you correct this is the situation:
> 
> I go out to the local trail head with a shovel and build a trail and do not add it to trail forks....I reserve the right to be upset that somebody is riding the trail I dug? Because the people on a bike should come across this amazing new trail -stop to check trail forks to see if it exists. If so, they shred. If it does not appear on trail forks the rider shrugs his shoulders and skips the trail?


read my previous reply to your first post


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Muttonchops said:


> I am trying to UNDERSTAND why people feel the need to publicise and spread trail beta
> ......
> Ok...so why...do people need to post videos / strava / and add trails to TF ?
> 
> ...


The entire model of Trailforks, Strava, MTBProject, etc is to spread trail beta. Social media in general (Facebook, Instagram, youtube, etc, etc) is about sharing what you do. Even here, that's part of the deal. You must not be keeping up with how social media is affecting visitation of public lands in general (often in negative ways), are you? It's a bit of an issue across the board, especially when these places are location tagged, but even when they're not and astute observers figure out the locations.

Some people don't know/don't care whether it's kosher to share info on a given trail. People can't keep track of who manages a given piece of land (state parks, state forests, national forests, national parks, blm, city, county, etc) even when they're told repeatedly. They see a trail and they're going to ride it/hike it and they're going to share it on whatever social media they use. Because that's how the social media companies have trained people to behave with the reinforcement of likes and followers.

In most of the world, you cannot expect much control over GPS or map data. That's only a thing that totalitarian governments do. So if you manage to keep it off of sites like TF that display at least a modicum of respect for land managers, that doesn't mean you can expect to keep it off of websites that don't care like someone's personal blog, instagram, youtube, or whatever.

Most places where I've been, if a builder intends to keep people off of new construction until it's completely DONE (I'm talking about 100% sanctioned stuff), they don't link it to existing trails or to the trailhead until the absolute last minute. The land manager considers the trail CLOSED until it's officially finished and opened. Builders are given a little leeway so they can see how it rides and refine it before opening it, but that's about it. But it's still not foolproof. If it's a major issue, then it's realistically up to the land manager to enforce it.

If you don't like what's going to happen if the land manager starts stepping up enforcement, then you're going to have to continue policing the internet, with frustrating results.

Have a problem with pros publicizing these trails? Take it up with their sponsors. I've found sponsors to be pretty happy to be told that their sponsored riders are behaving poorly. They're certainly not happy that it happens, and they let those riders know about it. Maybe the sponsors are aware that their riders do this and they look the other direction until they're caught out in it. Either way, I've seen riders get chewed out by their sponsor/employer (could have been either) because they were called out for poor behavior on a trail.


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## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

Yup @Harold. I dont do social media...which is why i dont get it.

Cheers for your thoughts


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

...


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## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

do you even read bro?


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

I had a much longer, more complete, and less confrontive response that I spent hours formulating. When I went to post it, the site glitched and I lost it. Out of frustration, I posted my unfiltered thoughts which don't do your question justice, my apologies. I will try again later if you have the patience for it. 

Cheers


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## mbmtb (Nov 28, 2013)

Note that lots of land managers have a sort of don't ask-don't tell policy.

Even for official trails. They won't put them on maps if they want limited traffic. Sometimes they'll tell you about them if you ask the right questions, or you'll find an official trail sign (and possibly a map) if you make it to the junction.

This goes double for unofficial trails.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

> I am relatively new to trail building..got stuck in around 2007 when i moved to the PNW permamently (immigrant).


I hope this doesn't sound like a pissing contest, but for perspective, I built my first trail in 1976.



> ...even though i totally disapprove ..i mean wtf?
> 
> &#8230; As an admin i tracked the dude down and sent him a PM and he actually called me and explained that he "thought he was being helpful"....Classic.


This is the sentiment that I was responding to in the response I deleted. I interpreted this as mocking and superior.



> I wonder why he didnt stop and think, "If the builder spent weeks or months building this trail...I wonder why he didnt spent 10 more minutes and load it to TF"?


I spend hours on each trail I post up. I know no trail builders who also posts to mapping sites. I'm sure they exist, but the ones I know are rouge builders, so, no&#8230;



> i have no problem with people riding any trail built...just thinking about the communication / publication of trails that are local...underground...not sanctioned etc...if you find a new trail..ride it...enjoy it...tell your buddies about it...but post a video / add it to TF? etc..?


Yet this is exactly what TF and MTBP are. It is sharing your trails with others. As with anything, there will be people who use it for other motives, but it doesn't change the motive or intent of those like the fellow you tracked down and made fun of.



> I appreciate the reply as i am trying to get my own thoughts in order.


It is refreshing that you seem sincerely interested in understanding other's motives. 
--


> 3)&#8230; why create a 'commercial' and increase the traffic..why not savor it like a good bottle of wine and hope that it remains untouched and raw as possible.


I hate commercialization too.



> &#8230; I am trying to UNDERSTAND why people feel the need to publicise and spread trail beta


You do indeed seem sincerely interested in understanding so I will try to explain my motive, though it may not be a common one.

I have mapped 50+ miles of local trail and posted them to MTBP and TF. My motive is to protect these trails from closure and to secure permission to legitimately maintain them. I also hope to someday add new, sanctioned trails to the system.

As a result of my mapping work and cooperation with BLM, the entire system is now identified as "bike trails" on BLM's TMP. I also secured authorization to legitimately do maintenance on the trails and was given permission to place stone trail-markers, that my friend and I made, on the trails. While they are still not protected from closure, I believe that this is the best course of action to increase the likelihood that they will eventually be adopted as "official" Singletrack. Perhaps I am wrong, some here certainly think so.



> ...should anyone (me?) care...
> &#8230; Its kind of pointless really.


Well you obviously do, despite the fatalistic comments, as do I and that poor schmuck you made fun of.



> Again...thanks for responding. Appreciate it. I realize we all have different oppinions and ideas and I am trying to clarify where i want to be on this topic..


And thanks for starting this discussion. I think it is an important one. I know my last response didn't leave room for discussion. Again, I apologize for that.

Cheers


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## bpressnall (Aug 25, 2006)

One guy I talked to about that sort of thing thought that if the trail was advertised and it became popular, then the land manager wouldn't be able to close it. I don't necessarily buy that logic, but do see his point. I would guess he didn't spend weeks or months building the trail, but just showed up one day and rode it.


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## ki5ka (Dec 17, 2006)

bpressnall said:


> .... if the trail was advertised and it became popular, then the land manager wouldn't be able to close it...


I'm sure there are examples of this going both ways, but this seems to be how it has gone in some of Arizona's most popular riding areas.

Several posters here live in these places, and I think, some have been involved in the process of helping getting these trails adopted by the land managers. I'm interested to hear from you; is my impression correct, that trails like Hangover, Slim Shady, Hiline, National, all started out as unsanctioned trails and now have been adopted by the land managers at least in part because of their popularity (and solid advocacy work!).

Arizona in general has much less restrictive rules on public lands, so perhaps it is more common here than some other places.


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## bpressnall (Aug 25, 2006)

Yes, those trails were all unsanctioned and are now legit, but first they were all closed by the land manager through a Forest Order that banned mountain bikes from all unauthorized trails, so I guess originally the trails were closed because of their popularity. The problem then was, most of the trails were unauthorized, which left little legal biking. The bikers got together and knew they had to do something at this point, so they worked with the FS to get them approved. No, I don't live there, so the story may be a bit different, but I think I got the gist of it right. Where I live, the FS is working with MTB'ers to approve unsanctioned trails, but in the meantime, they prefer that trails are not advertised.


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## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

If you know whats going on / are dialed in and working with land managers - totally different scenario ?


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## Muttonchops (Jul 16, 2004)

ki5ka said:


> And thanks for starting this discussion. I think it is an important one. I know my last response didn't leave room for discussion. Again, I apologize for that.
> 
> Cheers


Cheers for the lengthy response and thoughts...I will respond later.


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