# XX vs XTR



## TiEndo (Apr 7, 2006)

Does anyone have/know the exact weight differences going XX vs XTR??? What is the exact total groupo savings going SRAM.....excluding wheelset.


----------



## djphill (May 11, 2008)

taken from Mountain Biking Australia so not verified

XX with high mount FD, cranks 28/42 and 11/36 cassette 2.319grams

XTR with high mount FD, cranks 22/32/42 and 11/34 cassette 2.575grams
"all claimed manufacturers weights"

having weighed the XX cassette 11/36 and rear derailluer that i have srams weights are spot on


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

@djphill. How do you like your SRAM XX? SRAM announced they will release the GripShift version early in 2010, so I will probably purchase the XX drivetrain. What are you running on your front two chainrings? I was opting for the 30/42, and the rear, 11-34. Is the Crank stiff? compared to the XTR Crank. 

Thanks again,

Kevin


----------



## stevesbike (Feb 26, 2009)

I got an XX crank last week, 42/28 - right now I'm running it with a 9 speed 11-32, KMC 10 speed chain, X0 mid cage derailleur, force road front derailleur, ceramic blackbox BB. Yes, it's stiff (very) and the low q factor is very nice (I like it because I switch back and forth from from road to mtb). A few things to be careful of: frame compatibility is an issue (SRAM has a graphic on their website re the dimensions). I have a 2008 Merida and the big ring comes within 2mm of my chainstay. Otherwise, it is a great crank, vastly quicker front shifts (I'm using gripshifts), super smooth. I know there are doubters re ceramic BBs but it feels incredibly smooth and responsive.


----------



## djphill (May 11, 2008)

KevinK said:


> @djphill. How do you like your SRAM XX? SRAM announced they will release the GripShift version early in 2010, so I will probably purchase the XX drivetrain. What are you running on your front two chainrings? I was opting for the 30/42, and the rear, 11-34. Is the Crank stiff? compared to the XTR Crank.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Kevin


I will be getting gripshift has soon as it available in australia, im only running the shifters, cassette and rear derailleur, 
i have a 2010 merida team 96, cannondale sl cranks with frm chainrings and dura ace front derailleur http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=4603337&page=6 near the bottom of the page
i have only had the chance to ride it offroad once but it so much better then the xo setup i was using before, just keeped it in the big ring all day and went up and down the cassette, im not total happy with how it shifts with the frm chainrings so im thinking about getting the xx spider cannondale made for there cranks and running xx rings


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

stevesbike said:


> I got an XX crank last week, 42/28 - right now I'm running it with a 9 speed 11-32, KMC 10 speed chain, X0 mid cage derailleur, force road front derailleur, ceramic blackbox BB. Yes, it's stiff (very) and the low q factor is very nice (I like it because I switch back and forth from from road to mtb). A few things to be careful of: frame compatibility is an issue (SRAM has a graphic on their website re the dimensions). I have a 2008 Merida and the big ring comes within 2mm of my chainstay. Otherwise, it is a great crank, vastly quicker front shifts (I'm using gripshifts), super smooth. I know there are doubters re ceramic BBs but it feels incredibly smooth and responsive.


WOW Steve, do you have any pictures of your bike? Would love to see how you configured everything to work w/ Sram X.0 and GripShifters. I really want to get the XX drive train, but, I love my grip shifts, and am having a difficult time waiting for SRAM to release the XX verison of the GripShifts!

Question. If I run a Medium X.0 derailleur, with a front XX derailleur, front XX Crankset 28/42 but prefer 30/45 and BB30, using a 9 speed XTR rear cog 11-32, 10speed chain, and Grip Shifters, how well do you think this would work out?

I would love to run this configuration, as I am finding it hard to spend over $320.00 on a rear cogset, that will eventually need to be replaced. The XTR is almost half the price!

Are the shifts crisp, are there any problems you have encountered? It's compatible with the frame I am ordering, as they have the XX groupo as one of their build kits...Ibis Mojo SL.

Thanks again,

Kevin


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

djphill said:


> I will be getting gripshift has soon as it available in australia, im only running the shifters, cassette and rear derailleur,
> i have a 2010 merida team 96, cannondale sl cranks with frm chainrings and dura ace front derailleur http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=4603337&page=6 near the bottom of the page
> i have only had the chance to ride it offroad once but it so much better then the xo setup i was using before, just keeped it in the big ring all day and went up and down the cassette, im not total happy with how it shifts with the frm chainrings so im thinking about getting the xx spider cannondale made for there cranks and running xx rings


Your bike looks Incredible!!! Magnificent!!! Curious, why don't you want to purchase the XX crank?


----------



## djphill (May 11, 2008)

KevinK said:


> Your bike looks Incredible!!! Magnificent!!! Curious, why don't you want to purchase the XX crank?


TO HEAVY 
my sl cranks with frm rings weighs 580grams including axle, bearings and spacers the xx crank is nearly 200grams heavier


----------



## stevesbike (Feb 26, 2009)

Kevin, your configuration sounds like it will work well (you're within the chain wrap capacity of a mid cage X0 rear derailleur). There's no issues in terms of compatibility using a 9 speed rear derailleur/cassette and the xx crank and the front gripshift is compatible with just about any front derailleur. I've used a 10 speed chain on a 9 speed setup for a while now (before the XX crank). Installing the crank and adjusting things took about 15 minutes. Shifting with the setup I described is outstanding - rear shifts are very crisp (mid cage derailleurs help with that) and the XX crank is extremely quick with up/down shifts. I think this was one of their main design goals with the chainrings and 'x-glide.'


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

KevinK said:


> but prefer 30/45


...then forget about the XX as it comes with a custom BCD where you won't be able to find any rings in other sizes!


----------



## stevesbike (Feb 26, 2009)

nino said:


> ...then forget about the XX as it comes with a custom BCD where you won't be able to find any rings in other sizes!


30/45 is one of the XX options


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

nino said:


> ...then forget about the XX as it comes with a custom BCD where you won't be able to find any rings in other sizes!


Hi Nino. I was just thinking, if I purchase the Front XX Crank/chainrings, w/ XX front derailleur and BB30, 10 sp chain, I can switch over my 9SP X.0 gripshifts, 9sp XTR rear cog, and X.0 Medium cage rear derailleur from my current bike to my new bike, and be on the trails now. I'm having a difficult time waiting for the 10sp gripshifts to come out, without any real release date, this way, and please tell me what you think, I can have the benefit of a great Chain Line w/ two chainrings, and be on the trails without problem.

Later, when the 10sp gripshifters come out, Purchase the XX gripshifts, and hopefully, by then, Shimano will have a ten speed XTR Rear cog I can purchase for half the cost of the SRAM XX rear cog, and purchase the XX rear derailleur. If not, I may purchase the XX rear cog and derailleur, wait until the XX Cog wears out, then replace it with another brand of 10 speed cog. That works for me too.

Thoughts....

Thanks,

Kevin


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

nino said:


> ...then forget about the XX as it comes with a custom BCD where you won't be able to find any rings in other sizes!


Thanks Steve. Nino, the front Crank chainring options, from the SRAM website are;

26-39 (120/80 BCD), 
28-42 (120/80 BCD), 
30-45 (120/80 BCD)

rear cassette options are:

208g (11-36),
185g (11-32)

Thanks,

Kevin


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

KevinK said:


> Hi Nino. I was just thinking, if I purchase the Front XX Crank/chainrings, w/ XX front derailleur and BB30, 10 sp chain, I can switch over my 9SP X.0 gripshifts, 9sp XTR rear cog, and X.0 Medium cage rear derailleur from my current bike to my new bike, and be on the trails now. I'm having a difficult time waiting for the 10sp gripshifts to come out, without any real release date, this way, and please tell me what you think, I can have the benefit of a great Chain Line w/ two chainrings, and be on the trails without problem.
> 
> Later, when the 10sp gripshifters come out, Purchase the XX gripshifts, and hopefully, by then, Shimano will have a ten speed XTR Rear cog I can purchase for half the cost of the SRAM XX rear cog, and purchase the XX rear derailleur. If not, I may purchase the XX rear cog and derailleur, wait until the XX Cog wears out, then replace it with another brand of 10 speed cog. That works for me too.
> 
> ...


I just see that weird chainring option on the XX cranks??

It doesn't matter if you have 5 or 10speed...you could basically put whatever crankset you want!

ok-sure you could buy that XX crank however the only benefit i see is the smaller Q-factor if your bike allows for it (you will have to check the pdf file on SRAMs website for compatibility with your frame).

BUT you don't need to invest in all those pricey XX parts to be able to run 10s!

You can convert other cranks to DOUBLE as well with your choice of chainring sizes. There's many ways to get this done rather cheap and much lighter than XX too.

You can already get 10s titanium cassettes which are cheaper and lighter than XX.


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

nino said:


> I just see that weird chainring option on the XX cranks??
> 
> It doesn't matter if you have 5 or 10speed...you could basically put whatever crankset you want!
> 
> ...


Hey Nino, do you have a list of 2x9 cranks? I'm looking for Light and Strong/Stiff. Thanks,
Kevin


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

KevinK said:


> Hey Nino, do you have a list of 2x9 cranks? I'm looking for Light and Strong/Stiff. Thanks,
> Kevin


There's many options.

High-end stuff but also conversions of regular triple cranksets which you can do for little money.Do a search and you will find many different attempts.

I always suggest people try out double cranksets first before investing huge cash.Me too i first converted some Race Face Next LPs to double using the inner two chainring positions.I use 27/40. The whole set including BB weighed just 628g !

Now i'm on Lightning Carbones at 508g using the same chainring sizes.

For me "downgrading" to double and using smaller chainrings was the best move in a long,long time! The smaller rings give me a closer spaced drivetrain and much less front shifts...and it seems the smaller rings paired to my Dura Ace 7900 derailleur shift better than XTR !! And the weight loss for sure is a nice thing too


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

nino said:


> There's many options.
> 
> High-end stuff but also conversions of regular triple cranksets which you can do for little money.Do a search and you will find many different attempts.
> 
> ...


Thanks Nino, awesome information. I've been using a triple for five years, and haven't used my granny, small chain ring in five years. I'm currently running 24/32/42, and have only used the 32/42 in five years. I am running a 11-32 rear cassette, so, I figure a double would fit me perfectly, since, right now, I only use two chainrings. The lightening crank looks great without that strange, lightening bolt. How stiff is the Lightening? I tend to hammer large gears, sprinting up steep hills, so I need something really stiff.

Thanks again,

Kevin


----------



## xc71 (Dec 24, 2008)

Kevin, the XX 26 - 39 rings will not work on your bike.


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

If I recall right, the XX uses 80-120mm BCD.
Why they use a different bolt circle is to sell their own chainrings when originals are worn out.

Properitary stuff is not good.


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

xc71 said:


> Kevin, the XX 26 - 39 rings will not work on your bike.


That's o.k. XC71, I want to get the 30/45, but, if I can't find it, I may go w/ the 28/42.

Thanks for the information xc71!!!

Kevin


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

Mattias_Hellöre said:


> If I recall right, the XX uses 80-120mm BCD.
> Why they use a different bolt circle is to sell their own chainrings when originals are worn out.
> 
> Properitary stuff is not good.


Good point Mattias_Hellöre. I will keep this in mind when making my purchase. I've heard Shimano will release there double crank toward the end of 2010 as a 2011 model, however, I've also heard they may make the announcement in February. When the XX crank chain rings wear out, I may consider the XTR Double. Atleast, I will have another option, if I don't find another Double right now, other than the XX.

Thanks again,

Kevin


----------



## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

KevinK said:


> Good point Mattias_Hellöre. I will keep this in mind when making my purchase. I've heard Shimano will release there double crank toward the end of 2010 as a 2011 model, however, I've also heard they may make the announcement in February. When the XX crank chain rings wear out, I may consider the XTR Double. Atleast, I will have another option, if I don't find another Double right now, other than the XX.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Kevin


Kevin,
there's no need for double specific crank!

You can do your own without sacrificing anything.

For example my Race Face Next LP crankset shown above which consists of old cranks bought off ebay, rings from Mattias and a KCNC BB...all together i spent around 200$ and have a crankset which suits all my needs. Light enough with perfect chainline and the gearing i wanted.


----------



## Mattias_Hellöre (Oct 2, 2005)

Doule specific cranksets are often impractical as they are often severely limited to one bolt circle only.

94mm can only take 29T as lowest.
104mm about 30-31T.

That´s it, I prefer 5 bolt design regardless of boltcircle as they are stronger and don´t need uber stiff rings to show up good lateral strength when shifting to big ring.

My alu 27-37T on RooX ODR 94/58mm does weigh about 55 grams together, no lightening holes, only standard design, holding up about 200 km in singletrack and enduro tracks with steep hills.

Still in fine condition and shifts up and down fast without ramps, in certain combinations I have experienced, no need for ramps or something like that.

27-37 is a such combo, 27-39 is good too.

One FSA rider experienced poor shifting performance in my 40T chainring, tracked down to two possible problems.
1. Rapidfires
2. FSA 2x9 crankset.

I do use thumbies and rapidfires, no problem.


----------



## barrows (Jul 6, 2004)

*Rotor Cranks*

This is why I like Rotor's double cranks, they feature:

Standard 110-74 bcd, 5 arm, so many choices of chainrings available
Use standard, Shimano/Race Face style external BBs
Offer better chainline than running two rings on a triple crank
Offer a better Q factor than any common triple cranks (not as narrow as XX narrow version though)

I have the Agilis, it uses a kind of funky bearing preload system, the new version, the 3D has a more normal left arm pinch bolt system. The 3D can be purchased with a steel spindle, and pretty decent weight, or (for a huge upcharge) a titanium spindle that saves 40 grams.
Just wanted to point out another option for purpose built double cranks, see Rotor's website for more info.


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

nino said:


> Kevin,
> there's no need for double specific crank!
> 
> You can do your own without sacrificing anything.
> ...


If I'm coming from a triple, and I remove the smallest chanring, won't my chain line still be the same? How do I move the chain line to optimize efficiency, from the new double crank?

Thanks Nino,

Kevin


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

barrows said:


> This is why I like Rotor's double cranks, they feature:
> 
> Standard 110-74 bcd, 5 arm, so many choices of chainrings available
> Use standard, Shimano/Race Face style external BBs
> ...


Wow, barrows, these look really nice! From your experience, how stiff are these cranks. I torque the heck out of my cranks, hitting steep, long hills in big gears, so, I would rather have a little weight penalty in exchange for a stiffer crank.

*Rotor 3D Mt Bike Crank, MTB Double (110/74), and MTB Triple (104/64)*










*Ágilis MTB Crank double (110/74bcd) and triple (104/64bcd)*










Awesome, :thumbsup: thanks,

Kevin


----------



## BruceBrown (Jan 16, 2004)

nino said:


> I use 27/40. For me "downgrading" to double and using smaller chainrings was the best move in a long,long time! The smaller rings give me a closer spaced drivetrain and much less front shifts...


It's probably in another thread, but what brand are those 27/40 rings on your 64/104 BCD Lightning cranks? Is the 40 ramped/pinned?

Thanks.

BB


----------



## barrows (Jul 6, 2004)

*Kevin...*

I have the Agilis, running 26-40 rings, with XTR BB cups, and I do not notice any difference in stiffness to the XTR crank, but it sure looks like it would be flexier.
The new 3D was designed to be super stiff, Thor Husholvd used the road version of the 3D to win the green jersey at the TDF, so I assume it is plenty stiff. If I were buying now, I'd choose the 3D with the steel spindle for maximum strength and stiffness, the ti spindle saves weight, but is very expensive, and at the same diameter as the steel one the ti spindle is likely to be a little more flexible.
I am 170-175 pounds, plus gear BTW.


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

@barrows.

Thanks barrows, exactly what I was looking for. I must say, I do love the look of the Agilis, but, will seriously consider the 3D w/ q factor of 163mm. Does the chainline automatically adjust when purchasing a double crank, opposed to a triple? I did read the spec, and it does say the chainrings are moved closer to the BB. Rotor on specs the 170mm crank arm at 543g w/ steel spindle, or 503g w/ titanium. I wonder how much more weight the 175mm will be? What do you think about the Rotor BB's? I'm 163-165lbs fully loaded, depending on how my weeks diet is!!  How would you rate the stiffness compared to the XX cranks, or the Lightening Carbon cranks? I do prefer metal for crank material however!

Thanks again,

Kevin


----------



## barrows (Jul 6, 2004)

*My Agilis*

is 175, it was only a handful of grams more than the claimed weight for the 170. Rotor claimed weights appear to be pretty accurate (as opposed to most manufacturers).
I have no idea how stiffness would compare with Lightning or XX, but like I said, I find no problems with flex at all with the Agilis, and the 3D should be stiffer. Of course, these cranks are not as light as something like the Lightning (but lighter than XX, and can use many different chainrings, including the Rotor oval rings).
I think the Lighting is similar to (the same?) as the Specialized S-Works cranks. The Specialized have had some problems with durability (Sauser's even fell apart at a WC race), so I am a little wary of the real life durability of the Lightning. IMO the carbon cranks are not quite there yet-some offer no real weight advantage (XX, Noir, Race Face, FSA), and others seem downright fragile to me. There are too many stories of broken carbon cranks out there. I do believe in carbon, I just think that the carbon crank has a little way to go before it is dialed. I do a lot of epic rides, many miles from help, along with endurance racing, and a broken crank could be really inconvenient (even dangerous) for me, so if there is any question on durability of a crank I will choose something else.
I do not know anything about the Rotor BBs, I use Chris King or XTR. The XTR cups are actually lighter than most others, and as long as the frame is properly faced I get good durability from the XTR bearings (better than Enduro ceramic as an example).


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

*barrows*

DO you think the 3D is as stiff as the XTR or XT cranks? If they are, I may skip the XX and go for the Rotor 3D. I may look at CK BB, FSA or XTR. Wonder if the Rotor BB's are optimized for their cranks, in some way? Probably not!

Thanks again,

Kevin


----------



## cmv96 (Aug 19, 2004)

*SRAM XX GripShift*



KevinK said:


> SRAM announced they will release the GripShift version early in 2010.
> Kevin


@KevinK - where'd you hear this and is it absolutely reliable? I'm assembling parts for a new frameset and I just purchased several XTR driveline components, but have not yet installed them on my frame. I would prefer going with SRAM XX if they have a 10-speed GripShift available for it!


----------



## KevinK (Jul 19, 2005)

cmv96 said:


> @KevinK - where'd you hear this and is it absolutely reliable? I'm assembling parts for a new frameset and I just purchased several XTR driveline components, but have not yet installed them on my frame. I would prefer going with SRAM XX if they have a 10-speed GripShift available for it!


This is the source I found on the SRAM XX Gripshifters Thread:

[EMAIL="http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65567"]http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65567[/EMAIL]

The Thread: SRAM XX Gripshifters, is located at:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=6202911&page=2&highlight=grip+shifts

Who knows for sure, but, we can hope. I can't say first hand.

Kevin


----------

