# Tungsten



## RCP FAB (Jun 15, 2011)

What is everyone using? I've been using 2% thoriated for years on mild steel, in an .040 for stuff this thin. Any one find anything that like better?


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

lot of people are switching to lanthiated (sp? )aka, orange these days. Supposedly runs well with the inverter machines that are becoming more popular.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

At cycle designs we also sell tungsten in various types and sizes from Diamond Ground products:

http://www.diamondground.com/tungsten_home.html

Lanthanated is a great choice. It is able to handle heavy pulsation and has good arc starting.

We also have their "Tri-mix" which is a mixture of three non-radio active oxides that have great arc starting and long life.

It is hard to beat Thoriated but the others work well too and offer improved safety.

As far as I understand it, to offer some learning along with the pitch the oxides are necessary to transfer an arc to the work piece. These oxides are used up during welding and more oxide migrates to the tip so that it can continue to work. Different oxides have different welding potentials. Some start easy. Some do not start as easily but can last longer as they have a different migration rate. It is the balance we are looking for. Easy starting vs. lifespan. For instance Ceriated tungsten starts very easily and has great arc stability but does not handle high amperage's or heavy pulsation very well. It is relegated to short cycles with low amperage, which may work very well for bicycle frames but you will be preparing your tungsten much more often when compared to 2% thoriated or lanthanated.

The stuff is not on the website, just contact me offlist.

Thanks!

Dave


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

How different is welding with Thoriated versus Lanthanated?

Lanthanated being a "great choice" for pulsation/inverters--I suppose my question is, is it better than Thoriated for those applications or just better because of the lack of radioactive ingredients?


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## kampgnar (Apr 13, 2007)

Been using lanthanated for a couple of years now. No issues on a transformer machine.

It's nice to only have one type of tungsten for steel and aluminum.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

jay_ntwr said:


> How different is welding with Thoriated versus Lanthanated?
> 
> Lanthanated being a "great choice" for pulsation/inverters--I suppose my question is, is it better than Thoriated for those applications or just better because of the lack of radioactive ingredients?


Thoriated is hard to beat which is why they use it still and for so long in the past. I would say that as far as I can tell and most people would say Lanthanated is equal in most respects as far as physical welding goes and doesn't pose the same health issues.


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

dbohemian said:


> At cycle designs we also sell tungsten in various types and sizes from Diamond Ground products:
> 
> http://www.diamondground.com/tungsten_home.html
> 
> ...


I'll add to this that the percentage is by weight. With lanthanum oxide being less dense than thorium oxide, there's actually more (15-20% iirc) oxide in a piece of 1 1/2% lanthanated tungsten than in 2% thoriated. That's where the improved arc starting and longevity come from.

As for the health hazards, they require chronic inhalation of dust. Little to no radiation escapes the electrode while the thorium is held in the tungsten matrix. Think about how often you grind tungsten, how much you grind off and the fact that the very dense dust settles quickly and doesn't float around in the air. Now compare that to other stuff in your environment and you'll see that thoriated tungsten is very low on the list of dangers in your life.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

edoz said:


> I'll add to this that the percentage is by weight. With lanthanum oxide being less dense than thorium oxide, there's actually more (15-20% iirc) oxide in a piece of 1 1/2% lanthanated tungsten than in 2% thoriated. That's where the improved arc starting and longevity come from.
> 
> As for the health hazards, they require chronic inhalation of dust. Little to no radiation escapes the electrode while the thorium is held in the tungsten matrix. Think about how often you grind tungsten, how much you grind off and the fact that the very dense dust settles quickly and doesn't float around in the air. Now compare that to other stuff in your environment and you'll see that thoriated tungsten is very low on the list of dangers in your life.


Eric, so let me ask it this way. You know me, what I'm doing, and that I'm using a Dynasty w/ pulser sometimes--should I switch? Does it make sense to just keep using red tungsten or should I switch? Or maybe I should ask it this way. If you were grinding in your shop and doing TIG instead of flame, would you switch? And is it just the health aspects or does this improved starting make enough difference to make me want to switch?

I've got to think that I'm asking the same questions the OP is asking here....


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

to answer your question Jay,
Honestly, if I were doing tig at home I'd be using lanthanated due to the longevity. When the company pays for it I don't see enough of a difference to care. When I have to slum it and weld aluminum at work I'll use ceriated instead of pure. 
As for the health part, remember that I run tig all day every day. I've done it for years. Our shop goes through a box of 10 electrodes in couple of days. Tungsten dust isn't even on the radar. I'd choke to death on a dozen other substances before I'd get enough tungsten dust to cause a problem.


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## RCP FAB (Jun 15, 2011)

Ive yet to use lanthanated, but ceriated is absolutely terrible for anything above 50 amps, even at 3/32 they don't last long at all.

I think I may try the trimix, but at twice the cost of the red's, I may just stick with whats working.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

edoz said:


> to answer your question Jay,
> Honestly, if I were doing tig at home I'd be using lanthanated due to the longevity. When the company pays for it I don't see enough of a difference to care. When I have to slum it and weld aluminum at work I'll use ceriated instead of pure.
> As for the health part, remember that I run tig all day every day. I've done it for years. Our shop goes through a box of 10 electrodes in couple of days. Tungsten dust isn't even on the radar. I'd choke to death on a dozen other substances before I'd get enough tungsten dust to cause a problem.


Cool, so you would switch purely for economic reasons in sounds like. One thing I did realize I liked a lot more was making the switch from 3/32 to 1/16. It's way cheaper and grinds a lot easier 'cause there isn't as much to grind off. But the real benefit is that I feel I have more control over the arc for 90 amps and under. I still have some 3/32 for "other than bike" stuff.

One thing


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

edoz said:


> to answer your question Jay,
> Honestly, if I were doing tig at home I'd be using lanthanated due to the longevity. When the company pays for it I don't see enough of a difference to care. When I have to slum it and weld aluminum at work I'll use ceriated instead of pure.


Don't you weld aluminum almost exclusively at work?

Do your shops certs allow you to change tungsten at will like that? When I was doing comparable work we had weld procedures for everything and the only thing that was truly up to us was filler size.

I agree with your health concerns entirely, so many bigger things to worry about in a true fab shop. Like cutting your finger off.


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## smdubovsky (Apr 27, 2007)

I mostly use 1.5% lanthanated (gold) in 0.040" for thin bike tubing, 1/16 for roll cages (0.090-0.120 wall), and only rarely drag out any 3/32 for heavy stuff or thicker aluminum. Smaller stuff is cheaper, easier/faster to grind, and better low amp control. I've mostly run out of the thoriated I bought ages ago and don't notice much difference w/ the lanthanated (but Im no pro!)


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

smdubovsky said:


> I mostly use 1.5% lanthanated (gold) in 0.040" for thin bike tubing, 1/16 for roll cages (0.090-0.120 wall), and only rarely drag out any 3/32 for heavy stuff or thicker aluminum. Smaller stuff is cheaper, easier/faster to grind, and better low amp control. I've mostly run out of the thoriated I bought ages ago and don't notice much difference w/ the lanthanated (but Im no pro!)


Cool, I may just try some 0.040. If the benefits are linear from 3/32 to 1/16 to 0.040 then I'm sure I'd like it a lot more. I'll have to go visit the LWS this weekend and see what they have over there.


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## dbohemian (Mar 25, 2007)

jay_ntwr said:


> Cool, I may just try some 0.040. If the benefits are linear from 3/32 to 1/16 to 0.040 then I'm sure I'd like it a lot more. I'll have to go visit the LWS this weekend and see what they have over there.


I don't think the benefits are linear. It depends on your pulsation perimeters. If you are a heavy pulser (i.e. high current, low background) you will blow out an .040 pretty quickly.

I have used them for thin road bike tubing but the thicker stuff a lot of use for MTB is better serviced by 1/16th.

You have to weigh lifespan, vs cost vs. ease of use. I personally have some .020 for a project I did once and I have a plasma needle arc welder that has a .018 tip for foils and stuff.


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## jay_ntwr (Feb 15, 2008)

dbohemian said:


> I don't think the benefits are linear. It depends on your pulsation perimeters. If you are a heavy pulser (i.e. high current, low background) you will blow out an .040 pretty quickly.
> 
> I have used them for thin road bike tubing but the thicker stuff a lot of use for MTB is better serviced by 1/16th.
> 
> You have to weigh lifespan, vs cost vs. ease of use. I personally have some .020 for a project I did once and I have a plasma needle arc welder that has a .018 tip for foils and stuff.


Thanks for the additional note, Dave. I'll pick some up and test it out on the thinner stuff and see what I think. It's fun this welding... Pisses me off at the same time sometimes, but fun.


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## edoz (Jan 16, 2004)

customfab said:


> Don't you weld aluminum almost exclusively at work?
> 
> Do your shops certs allow you to change tungsten at will like that? When I was doing comparable work we had weld procedures for everything and the only thing that was truly up to us was filler size.


Most of what comes through the shop is aluminum, but we have just enough stainless/inconel to keep me busy most of the time. I much prefer ss, and most of the other guys would rather weld aluminum so it works out well.

None of our manuals specify tungsten, and they've all been customer and FAA approved so it's up to us to use what's appropriate. Most likely whoever wrote your manuals specified tungsten just to be thorough, and when they got approved it became the law for your shop to operate under.


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## ROSKO (Oct 11, 2009)

Evening y'all, it's been a while. Normally I don't feel I have too much to add to the conversation but I've been using the 2% Lanthanated exclusively for the bicycle stuff and am happy with the result. No intention of turning back. My sharpening set-up up is a table side grinder and much of the dust ends up on the floor around my station or in my lap. With this stuff and I don't have to worry if the kiddo visits or wants to give pops a hug before he hits the showers.

The great news is Diamond Ground stand behind their product and to promote their line they do give out free samples: (I don't have enough posts so you'll have to ad the w's) .diamondground.com/freesample.html
Give it a try- I think you'll find yourself calling CycleDesign for a box or two.


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## RCP FAB (Jun 15, 2011)

Thanks ROSKO.

I just requested some 2% lanthanated from diamond ground.

What are the differenced between running 1.5% or 2% lanthanated, also curious about the tri mix ones, maybe on the next go.


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