# Profile Ti spindle issues



## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

So I got in my 6" Ti spindle from Prifile Racing and I attempt to put on my Tree splined chainring and Shadow Torrid cranks. First I attempt the chainring and I can't even get it started by hand. Use the crank install tool just to get the thing on. After about a 1/2" I attempt to follow up with the crank arm. I get the arm barely on and the resistance is unbelievable.

So I keep going a bit at a time and I am breaking a sweat, and nearly breaking my arm to even get the thing going. I stop and attempt to put on the non-drive side. Same thing. I get about a 1/2" and it just stops moving.

Now I am no weakling and I started to bend the install tool from sheer force. I figured I was not even 25% there on either side so it was not going to go on.

I removed both sides which nearly ruined my removal tool from the force. Now that I have it off I have to wonder if there is a difference in the 48-spline machining between Profile Racing and Shadow. Both the cranks and chainring worked fine on the Shadow CrMo spindle.

Anyone else have issues with a Profile Racing Ti spindle? I was thinking of getting Profile cranks anyway, so I was going to get some tomorrow and see if they work. But I am not sure if the issue is the spindle or the cranks. Just figured I would see if anyone else had this issue.


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## Axis (Mar 11, 2004)

i can't speak to the profile titanium spindle but the cro mo profile spindle has super tight tolerances not only with profile arms but other 19mm 48t spline arms too. 

What you describe has been my experience with the cro mo profile spindle. I'd like to hear what other have to say becuase I am about to pull the trigger on the titanium spindle too.


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

Yeah this is more than tight tolerances. I can't get the cranks past 1/4 of the way on. I bent my install tool and nearly ruined my arm.

I will either put my CrMo spindle back on and see if I can send back the Ti spindle or get a pair of Profile cranks to see if the arms will go on. I really like the look of the Shadows but also want the Ti spindle as I need a 6" spindle due to the euro BB. (and don't want the CrMo weight).


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## Axis (Mar 11, 2004)

Demo-9 said:


> Yeah this is more than tight tolerances. I can't get the cranks past 1/4 of the way on. I bent my install tool and nearly ruined my arm.
> 
> I will either put my CrMo spindle back on and see if I can send back the Ti spindle or get a pair of Profile cranks to see if the arms will go on. I really like the look of the Shadows but also want the Ti spindle as I need a 6" spindle due to the euro BB. (and don't want the CrMo weight).


Ahh ok. Too bad it isn't the 5.75" spindle or I'd buy it from you. Good luck though.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

I duno... the last spindle I installed was very hard too... Profile says "tight tolerances."


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

Demo-9 said:


> Anyone else have issues with a Profile Racing Ti spindle?


yes. :madman:

I was telling you about this earlier.

Has happened to me with multiple crank arm combinations, and with different ti spindles as well. TIGHT Tolerances, literally tight, they aren't joking.
I am getting ready to install a new LG-1 w/ a wide plate on my SplinterMX and I ABSOLUTELY cringe at the thought of having to deal with that ti spindle and demolition arms w/ the Tree spline drive anymore than I have to. I just finished installing some Macneil conjoined arms w/ tree spline on my bmx bike with an old FSA ti spindle I've had, and it was a (*@#$&(&^#)$... everytime I do it I cannot believe the muscle (and lots of grunting and yelling and swearing, all while resisting the tempt to throw tools around) that is required to do this stuff!

I've bent several tools as well. Hammering does no good either.


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## BIKESerFUN (Sep 5, 2007)

Lots of the golden magic stuff makes the install much better and removal less of a pain in the ass when the dead blow hammer comes to play.


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

BIKESerFUN said:


> Lots of the golden magic stuff makes the install much better and removal less of a pain in the ass when the dead blow hammer comes to play.


that rusty colored anti-seize has never been much help for me as far as the install is concerned.


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## BIKESerFUN (Sep 5, 2007)

It does seem like that I must agree. But Ive also tried a pair of profiles without it and it wasnt very so good.


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## asianprideryder (Apr 21, 2007)

wd 40
2 folded towels
hammer
gloves for the times i miss
and alot of free time will eventually get most things off


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

Well it sounds as if others too have had some fun times with this. I do have access to a industrial press and I could press the arms onto the spindle with literally no muscle work. But I would bet that the arms would NEVER come off and I would have to cut them off if I ever needed to change anything.

I just wanted to see if maybe the spindle machining between 2 different companies was the issue or if it is a material issue - Ti vs CrMo.. I will pick up a pair of Profile cranks tonight and try to get them on the spindle. If they too are not able to go on I will return the cranks, pull out the Ti spindle, remove my chainring (using the mentioned press) and re-use my CrMo spindle and cranks.

EDIT: I just called Profile (and theier CS is great) and they did mention that there may be enough differences between the Profile certified 38-spline tolerances and another manufacturer's. In theory Profile spindle to Profile arms are a matched tolerance and should be tight. But a Profile spindle tolerance matched to another company's crank tolerance may not match at all. They too recommended that I try a Profile crank (of course!) and make sure that the cranks can go on - which will rule out that the spindle is not machined correctly.


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

*Follow up*

I decided to not go with new cranks and put back on my CrMo spindle. I am selling the Profile Ti if anyone is interested. I got it through my shop and payed EP price on it. I have the receipt to prove it. I would rather not announce the cost unless you are seriously interested - in order to not aggrevate anyone. PM if you want it. I will sell it for what I paid and shipping - no more, no less - period.

Also I would trade for a FSA Ti in a 6" if anyone had one (you never know)... I did manage to try my cranks on a friends FSA Ti and the tolerances are similar and work fine. Must be the difference between Profile and others...


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

Demo-9 said:


> I decided to not go with new cranks and put back on my CrMo spindle. I am selling the Profile Ti if anyone is interested. I got it through my shop and payed EP price on it. I have the receipt to prove it. I would rather not announce the cost unless you are seriously interested - in order to not aggrevate anyone. PM if you want it. I will sell it for what I paid and shipping - no more, no less - period.
> 
> Also I would trade for a FSA Ti in a 6" if anyone had one (you never know)... I did manage to try my cranks on a friends FSA Ti and the tolerances are similar and work fine. Must be the difference between Profile and others...


Wow, interesting turn of events, it's too bad you couldn't get it to work out to your satisfaction.

I honestly think you are actually getting too caught up in the "differences" in tolerances. They aren't that different really. All of the 48 spline cranks I've gone through, on both FSA and profile (and other oem) spindles, none have been so different that I would sell one off in favor of another. Just for example, I've run Wethepeople Royals, Demolition Medial, Macneil Conjoined, FSA X-drive, and Profile cranks, and mixed and matched just about all of them on different ti spindles.

FSA also doesn't make a ti spindle larger than 5.5" as far as I know (does your friend have a 6", and how can you confirm it's an FSA?). 5.5 is the only size I've ever seen available from them in Ti, including the one I own, and I searched hard a few years ago before getting a 6" profile for my FS bike.
Also, the splines taper out wider towards the middle of the FSA, so pushing the Tree spline drive sprocket in very far is near impossible because of the deformity. I got it to work fine on my bmx though, but I'd suggest using a reg. sprocket if this was your goal.


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

I wish I was caught up in tolerance "differences". The PR tech guy did mention that the 48-spline standard may be different for non US made splined spindles. He mentioned that overseas tolerances may be ever-so-slightly different. For Profile, he did say that a HUGE number of cranks do work with no issues. He has never tried to fit a Shadow crank on a PR spindle.

I used a vice to push on the Tree and it was rather easy. Let me say that I nearly sheered off my tool just to get the crank on about 1/2". Even with that the tool threads were starting to strip. At that point there was no way I was going to get that thing on there without using a press. Instead of ruining both my cranks and the spindle, I decided to just put the CrMo back on...

You are right on the FSA only coming in a 5.5" max. I was thinking I had seen one, but that was something else. My buddy's is a 5.5" and I could get the Tree and cranks on without issue. They went on with the same force as I had for my spindle - tough but normal.

I really wish I could use the spindle, but I like the cranks and the splined Tree. I did find a Torrid Ti Spindle from Shadow and I assume it is a 5.75" as similar to the CrMo...

http://www.danscomp.com/455146.php

I will keep searching...

Forgot to mention that the splined Tree went back on the CrMo A LOT easier. In fact I can slide it on and off by hand where before I could not. It definitely stretched a tiny bit...


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

Demo-9 said:


> I wish I was caught up in tolerance "differences". The PR tech guy did mention that the 48-spline standard may be different for non US made splined spindles. He mentioned that overseas tolerances may be ever-so-slightly different. For Profile, he did say that a HUGE number of cranks do work with no issues. He has never tried to fit a Shadow crank on a PR spindle.
> 
> I used a vice to push on the Tree and it was rather easy. Let me say that I nearly sheered off my tool just to get the crank on about 1/2". Even with that the tool threads were starting to strip. At that point there was no way I was going to get that thing on there without using a press. Instead of ruining both my cranks and the spindle, I decided to just put the CrMo back on...
> 
> ...


propaganda from the public relations of a company!  
haha, seriously though, I understand what you are saying. At the point of destroying tools and on the verge of destroying your components, you've got to take a step back and look at the whole picture.

And yeah, that's right, I forgot, the Torrids, Stolens, Medials, and Conjoined all have the option of getting an oem ti spindle! That right there may be your best bet at this point!! 
I'd actually put some money down that those oem spindles are manufactured in the same factory that produces the FSA products as well.

and that's some good info about the Tree. I'll keep that in mind, probably try to minimize the amount of times I remove and install one (I've got two spline drives, 25t and 33t).

well good luck, and let us know what you end up doing if you decide to swap out the chromoly again.


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

Yeah I hear ya. Are you the same Bike Satori that posts on Busted Spoke?? Another person there that has the same user name..

I still may try a pair of Profile Racing cranks before I get rid of the spindle. It is just bugging me to see if the Profile to Profile works any better. There is another shop in town who has a pair of polished Profiles in that I can grab, try and return if they do not fit. Who knows maybe the Torrids just don't fit on a Profile spindle? I need to find out if the Shadow oem Ti is indeed a 5.75" before I order it..

I did however manage to drop 0.75lb by installing my new Schwalbe table tops and taking off my k-rads...Now if I can find a Ti spindle that will give me my 1lb removal goal...


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## BikeSATORI (Mar 20, 2004)

Demo-9 said:


> Yeah I hear ya. Are you the same Bike Satori that posts on Busted Spoke?? Another person there that has the same user name..
> 
> I still may try a pair of Profile Racing cranks before I get rid of the spindle. It is just bugging me to see if the Profile to Profile works any better. There is another shop in town who has a pair of polished Profiles in that I can grab, try and return if they do not fit. Who knows maybe the Torrids just don't fit on a Profile spindle? I need to find out if the Shadow oem Ti is indeed a 5.75" before I order it..
> 
> I did however manage to drop 0.75lb by installing my new Schwalbe table tops and taking off my k-rads...Now if I can find a Ti spindle that will give me my 1lb removal goal...


yep, BikeSatori on bustedspoke too! :thumbsup: Haven't posted much there recently though, I originally joined the group there because of the expanse of knowledge dealing with Sinister Bikes, since I am a big fan of FTW's products.
Same user on ridemonkey and a few other various bike forums too.

and you get climbingbubba's rubbers already? haha.


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

That's awesome - same person. I figured you were the same person on RM as well...

Yep I go his tires.They are really light. I could not find them on QBP or BTI so I decided to get them to try. They look really good. Will try them on Sunday...

Bike is down to 28.5lbs now. Maybe a hollow 1/8" chain later on to take some more off. Not much else I can do...


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

*Another new twist*

Well nobody had Profiles in stock in black, so I picked up a pair of Macneil Conjoined cranks and put them on the CrMo spindle. Reason is that they have a lower profile and I was able to remove one large spacer on each side to get more spindle in the cranks. That way when I do get a hold of a non-Profile Ti spindle in 5.75" I will be all set. I think the Ti Torrid BB from Shadow is 5.75" but need to confirm.

I did take a micrometer to the MacNeil and Profile Ti spindle. The Ti does measure a slightly larger diameter compared to the unused spindle. At least I am not losing my mind wondering why they don't fit.

Also tried the Table Tops today. I could not even ride my bike with the weight difference. All day I was a mess. I was hoping that the loss in rotational weight would not affect the gyroscopic effect of the wheels but it did. Same thing happened to me on my FR bike when going to a thin, light tire. In the air it makes a BIG difference to me. So I put back on the K-rads. Will save the Table tops for a try at the DJ but I don't think they will work there either. Plus I did slide a couple of times in spots that I never did before...


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## [email protected] (May 26, 2006)

Are the Torrid cranks actually 19mm like they say they are on the Shadow site? You would have a .002 inch press fit using 19mm crank arms and a Profile 3/4 spindle. I’ve always wondered if the stuff labeled 19mm was actually 19mm. I’ve only ever used Profile cranks and everything has always fit up fine.


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## XSL_WiLL (Nov 2, 2004)

Hey, if you don't want the TTs, I'll grab em.


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## Axis (Mar 11, 2004)

XSL_WiLL said:


> Hey, if you don't want the TTs, I'll grab em.


AHHHHHHH beat me to it!!!

Hey PM me for the TT if this falls through.


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## cholo (Nov 25, 2006)

Hmmm...I have three bikes w/ 48 spline cranks: two with profile arms and spindles and one w/ Eastern arms and spindle. All three cranksets have arms that are loose on the splines. I can remove the end bolts, wiggle the arms a bit and pull the arms off the spindle by hand without the removal tool. It bugs the heck out of me. The arms actually rock on the splines a bit even when the end bolts are tight. I'm thinking about switching to a different type of crank just so I don't have to deal with this anymore....


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## Demo-9 (Mar 24, 2006)

Yeah I may sell the TT's but not yet.. I am selling the Shadow cranks though if anyone is interested.

The difference in the 2 spindles was noticeable. About a 0.2mm difference. The MacNeils went on tough, but very manageable.


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