# MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....



## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....*

Reading my new MBA that came yesterday (Its $20/yr&#8230;why not right?) and found the article describing the different types of riders/disciplines and what bike you should be riding quite comical. What happened to "mountainbiking" as I remember it? I started in the early '90s and back then, there was XC (which was any kind of riding that wasn't DH) and well&#8230;.DH. Riders rode trails that were technical, had climbs, descents, obstacles, etc. To be good at XC, you had to have a combination of fitness and bike skill which, at least to me, was what made it fun. Flash-forward 20 years. The article points out that "XC" is all about lung-busting climbs and is as close to road riding as you can get. Really?


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Wait a few months, they will say the exact opposite.

I'm convinced its written by bots now, substituting words and phrases arbitrarily.

The [insert bike name] is designed for [pick any of real, serious, dedicated, competitive] [trail, xc, all mountain, enduro] riders. It feels [fast, stable, steady] on [rocky, technical, smooth] climbs but still remains [playful, agile, stable] on [downhills, descents].


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

sounds like they are cornfusing xc riders with dirt roadies.


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## crewjones (Aug 24, 2007)

I guess technically it is as close as you can get to road biking in the mountain bike world but on the other hand it is absolutely not road biking.


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## 06HokieMTB (Apr 25, 2011)

TiGeo said:


> Riders rode trails that were technical, had climbs, descents, obstacles, etc. To be good at XC, you had to have a combination of fitness and bike skill which, at least to me, was what made it fun.


Sounds like "Enduro"


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## Fairbanks007 (Sep 5, 2009)

Procter said:


> Wait a few months, they will say the exact opposite.
> 
> I'm convinced its written by bots now, substituting words and phrases arbitrarily.
> 
> The <insert bike name> is designed for <pick any of real, serious, dedicated, competitive> <trail, xc, all mountain, enduro> riders. It feels <fast, stable, steady> on <rocky, technical, smooth> climbs but still remains <playful, agile, stable> on <downhills, descents>.


LOL! This will be true if, and only if, they can figure out how to squeeze a paragraph or two in between the ads.

$20 is cheap for a subscription, but damn...the ads. They just don't stop!


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

Plus wouldn't cyclocross be the closest thing to road biking? Idiots.


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## Roy Miller (Sep 19, 2007)

Enduro sounds like the way we've always ridden! Grind your way to the top have then let er rip on the way back down. XC sounds like riding in Florida ...


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## guitarjohn21 (Jan 16, 2012)

I cant read that mag anymore. I used to think it was good, I just don't believe their reviews anymore.


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## manbeer (Oct 14, 2009)

Ahh how I miss the good ole days, back in the 90's when there were more stores like supergo and bikepro and I would actually look forward to the ads. Sure the equipment was less advanced, but it was actually exciting


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## lorsban (Sep 2, 2009)

Close as you can come to road riding - on a mountain bike. 

If they added that last part, it seems obvious.


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## targnik (Jan 11, 2014)

They dress the same ;-p

Sent from my Kin[G]_Pad ™


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

"Its as close you can come to driving a race car...in a Ford Fiesta".


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## BikeIntelligencer (Jun 5, 2009)

And don't forget "But it was when we pointed [bike name] downward that it really proved itself a worthy contender..."


Procter said:


> Wait a few months, they will say the exact opposite.
> 
> I'm convinced its written by bots now, substituting words and phrases arbitrarily.
> 
> The [insert bike name] is designed for [pick any of real, serious, dedicated, competitive] [trail, xc, all mountain, enduro] riders. It feels [fast, stable, steady] on [rocky, technical, smooth] climbs but still remains [playful, agile, stable] on [downhills, descents].


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

MTB Fiction has been a joke for decades.


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## OLx6 (Feb 5, 2011)

I cancelled my subscription a few years ago. I grew tired of their view of mountain biking, as it seems in their eyes this activity only exists in Southern California. 

Anyone remember the story they did on how fast bike parts wear and should be replaced? Basically you needed a new bike almost every year.....this with how they are always pushing new equipment and all of the ads gets really annoying.


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## Repack Rider (Oct 22, 2005)

Freedom is not caring how others describe your activities.


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## XJaredX (Apr 17, 2006)

Dude, $20 gets you a Dirt Rag subscription, what's the matter with you?


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

Maybe this is what they meant.


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## Osco (Apr 4, 2013)

MTB Fiction has the best pictures of many of the overpriced super bikes.
I get it for the pictures and adds.

Dirt Rag is a riders rag, that one I read cover to cover....


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## IFallDown (Mar 2, 2014)

MTB has articles???? Looks more like the Sears and Roebuck of mountain bike Magazine!


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## TomFL (Feb 6, 2004)

Roy Miller said:


> Enduro sounds like the way we've always ridden! Grind your way to the top have then let er rip on the way back down. XC sounds like riding in Florida ...


OUCH! Granted, we don't have the best MTBing in the world but don't lump us in with the MBA douches! At least my ride on the beach went well this morning..!


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## mtc71 (Feb 18, 2014)

Maybe it was a typo; CX not XC, woops, run it anyway boys, we need the ad revenue.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

You people are harsh. I've read about as many negative reviews from MBA as any other magazine. The one thing I've realized over the last 5 years is that nearly all products are good at what they are designed to do. With a few exceptions, there just aren't many bad products out there. BIKE didn't have much bad to say about any bike in their Bible issue. Why isn't anybody complaining about that? The things MBA should take some heat for is catering to beginners and supporting E-bikes. 

As far as the comment about cross-country being as close to road riding as you can get, I don't see why that's so wrong. Cross-country has long been considered relatively tame compared to trail riding. Yes, cross-country used to just be "mountain biking" back in the day, but that was when you had one bike for xc, dh, and hill climbs. Be honest, here. Who wins cross-country races: enduro riders or roadies?


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## Saladin (Sep 25, 2014)

Wouldn't riding a mountain bike on the road be as close to road riding as you can get on an MTB?


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## RSAmerica (Aug 24, 2012)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....*

MTB Adtion, I stopped reading it when Dirt Rag came out 25 years ago.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I have a roadie friend who tried a xc mtb race once and endo'd in a creek. That pretty much summed up his experience.

"XC" USED to mean "anything not downhill". Now, for some reason, the terrain snobs have relegated the term to the way people ride in what they term "flyover states". Now we have terms like "Freeride" and "Enduro" and "XC" is an epithet.


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## The Yetti (Dec 22, 2005)

Harold said:


> I have a roadie friend who tried a xc mtb race once and endo'd in a creek. That pretty much summed up his experience.
> 
> "XC" USED to mean "anything not downhill". Now, for some reason, the terrain snobs have relegated the term to the way people ride in what they term "flyover states". Now we have terms like "Freeride" and "Enduro" and "XC" is an epithet.


I'm with you on this one, what is now "trail" and "Enduro" used to be XC. I have had people ne to the sport ask what kind of riding I do, I tell them mountain biking.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

VirulentSafetyPanda said:


> Honestly, you should get your clueless ass out to an XC race and learn for yourself. Maybe after that experience you'll be less likely to make such inane posts.
> 
> (stop reading/believing magazines would be helpful too)


I raced XC back in 1999 and 2000. I've been to a couple of NORBA Nationals since then, and I have watched numerous XC races on television in the mid '90s to the latest World Champs on redbull.com. I know what a cross-country race is. John Tomac was a road racer. Cadel Evans was a road racer. You won't see too many all-around excellent bike handlers winning cross-country races these days. You won't see Jared Graves or Brian Lopes win a World Cup XC race. Not that any road racer can win a cross-country race, but they would have a better chance than Mark Weir. I stand by my post. I also believe what is worth believing from mags and any other media source. Common sense and reading comprehension go a long way. I'm not sure what you took so personally, but your 2-posts ass is the clueless one. Maybe you should stop believing everything you read on mtbr.com.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Cross-country meant mountain biking back when every bike was rigid with 130mm stems, crappy brakes, and 1.95" tires. There are more bikes nowadays, with more variety in trails and riding styles. A rigid 29er is meant for entirely different trails than a 6" enduro bike. Cross-country doesn't cover it, anymore. It makes it easier to choose the proper bike when proper labels are used. It's not a conspiracy, and it's not the bike industry trying to confuse or piss you off, although you all do seem a bit confused. 

Not many people rode "enduro" 20 years ago, because the bikes couldn't handle that type of riding back then. At least until "freeriding" came about, and those bikes weren't exactly trail-friendly. It's almost like you weren't riding back then, and yet you still talk about it like you know anything about it. If you think you could hit up some decent drops down the crazy terrain enduro guys are riding on a 1990 bike, then you are either Hans Rey or lying out of your ass. I'm guessing only a few of these posters even know who Hans Rey is.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> You won't see too many all-around excellent bike handlers winning cross-country races these days.


That is 100% crazy talk.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> That is 100% crazy talk.


Adam Craig and John Tomac were world class mountain bikers, and exceptions. Which top xc racer would you consider a top all-around mountain biker? I'm not talking about your local series, although the series I used to race in was won by guys and gals that road their road bikes and trainers more than their mountain bike.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Adam Craig and John Tomac were world class mountain bikers, and exceptions. Which top xc racer would you consider a top all-around mountain biker?


Nino Schurter comes to mind but pretty much any rider in a WC xc event would qualify.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

You think pretty much any World Cup rider is closer to an all-mountain rider than roadie? Are we watching/racing the same xc races? I see a lot of xc racers shoulder or run their bike numerous times during many races. I also think it's common for the majority to spend most of their time on their road bikes. It's an endurance event. You can't be the best at everything. Unless you're John Tomac. Just not enough time in the day to train for everything. I thought this was common knowledge... 

Edit: I just don't get why people get so offended by stupid sh!t. So somebody called cross-country closer to road than other disciplines of mountain biking. How is that incorrect?


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> You think pretty much any World Cup rider is closer to an all-mountain rider than roadie? Are we watching/racing the same xc races? I see a lot of xc racers shoulder or run their bike numerous times during many races.


It's hard to huck & jive when you're redlining for an hour and a half. They may not be Redbull rampagers but I'm confident that any one of the apx. 100 guys lined up at the start of a wc xc event could school at least 99% of all the armchair wannabes here (myself included) in just about every discipline of the sport, and that makes them top all around mountain bikers in my book.

I just don't think it's possible to make it to that level without being an exceptional bike handler.


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## johnD (Mar 31, 2010)

pg 101 (march 2015) - self proclaimed instructor with 6 years riding experience . he's has also been a model and a men's fashion merchant. (I guess that means he worked at jcpenny)

I got a kick out of that one.

XC compared to roadies also had me thinking , wtf !?

mba has become total rubbish ,can't believe anything they say.

i wish dirt rag was a 12 month mag.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

I recall going to a ride 'event" not a race at Mission trails in SD. The groups were split between advance, int., and begin. The advanced went up Jackson fire road, on the rim trial then along 52, then up the north side of North Fortuna, not the saddle side, came down the saddle then suyucyout wash back. they were coming down the saddle while we were still making our climb up jackson on the intermediate route. this was maybe 1o years ago and the several guys int he advanced group allr aced XC. they did this fun ride on their 6" travel Turners and Nomads. It was impressive, that is a really hard ****ign route they did that requires a lot of technical mastery, and they did it flying.

MBA was much better with Jimmy Mac. It is possible that they were referring to the the ability to suffer and climb as distinguishing between the best of XC?


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

I'm proud of Jimmy Mac, who after 20 years at MBA resigned in protest of their decision to now shill for e-bikes, too. 

I find MBA very useful for stimulating that smooth-muscle movement that sometimes does not come so readily to one of my advanced years. I value it for nothing else. 
I buy a copy every few months or so, at a discount, solely for the above movement-facilitating purpose.


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## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Old Ray said:


> I'm proud of Jimmy Mac, who after 20 years at MBA resigned in protest of their decision to now shill for e-bikes, too.
> 
> I find MBA very useful for stimulating that smooth-muscle movement that sometimes does not come so readily to one of my advanced years. I value it for nothing else.
> I buy a copy every few months or so, at a discount, solely for the above movement-facilitating purpose.




I find that MBF's take on mountain biking bears little to no resemblance to the game as I know it. It's seems to come from some sanitized, formulaic, soulless gear-centric parallel universe. It's got no grit, and I like me some grit. 
And fiber.


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## cjsb (Mar 4, 2009)

Old Ray said:


> I'm proud of Jimmy Mac, who after 20 years at MBA resigned in protest of their decision to now shill for e-bikes, too.
> 
> I find MBA very useful for stimulating that smooth-muscle movement that sometimes does not come so readily to one of my advanced years. I value it for nothing else.
> I buy a copy every few months or so, at a discount, solely for the above movement-facilitating purpose.


I think he got nominated for or voted in to the MTB Hall of Fame in 2014? He must have done something right?

I don't get the magazine anymore, I'd prefer Bike or Dirtg rag these days. MBA always seemed to follow the format of the MotoX mags of their publishers. None of the biking magazines are objective tools of high literary content. For me, I like a lot of reviews and pictures and I like animation and cartoons and comic books, too. One cool thing I loved about MBA was the shootout with a declared winner. That was ballsy, but the industry got too competitive for the advertisers to let that stand. It seemed that they had to revise it to shootut bettween different bikes from the same company. The winner between the two Treks? It is Trek--Amazing! That video they put out on wheels wars, hilrious! hard hitting empricial findings right there bold like on the screen. I am all over the place with this, but having lived in SoCal for a while they did capture well riding in SoCal.


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## dave54 (Jul 1, 2003)

Who wrote it --mike vandeman?


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

I wrote of Mt Bike Action as a prepubescent joke well over a decade ago. Once every few years I skim over an issue and honestly, there is never anything worth reading. Just pick any random post off of mtbr and you are more likely to find worthwhile info (and I realize that is a low bar).


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

mountainbiker24 said:


> If you think you could hit up some decent drops down the crazy terrain enduro guys are riding on a 1990 bike, then you are either Hans Rey or lying out of your ass. I'm guessing only a few of these posters even know who Hans Rey is.


"No" Hans Rey.

Now, Danny Mac and Hans would make a good vid together.


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

That's $20 you'll never get back.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Be honest, here. Who wins cross-country races: enduro riders or roadies?


Jared Graves won a round of Australian XC series last year. Just saying...


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

XC / Trail / AM is not a difference in terrain (despite what many "AM" riders want to think), it is the way you approach riding it.

"XC" is when you are mostly interested in finishing the ride as fast as possible, and you are not getting a lift to the top. Does not really make a difference how technical the trail is unless you are hucking large jumps or drops. Many of the XC races around here are very technical, just as technical as the segments that the local Enduro series uses (some are the same trails). And what are people mostly winning these races on? XC bikes.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road ridi...*



mountainbiker24 said:


> You think pretty much any World Cup rider is closer to an all-mountain rider than roadie? Are we watching/racing the same xc races? I see a lot of xc racers shoulder or run their bike numerous times during many races. I also think it's common for the majority to spend most of their time on their road bikes. It's an endurance event. You can't be the best at everything. Unless you're John Tomac. Just not enough time in the day to train for everything. I thought this was common knowledge...
> 
> Edit: I just don't get why people get so offended by stupid sh!t. So somebody called cross-country closer to road than other disciplines of mountain biking. How is that incorrect?


Nino Schurter won the Flims Mega-Avalanche against some of the best enduro and DH racers in the world.

Julien Absalon took 2nd to his brother at an enduro race two years ago.

When Steve Peat says "I couldn't do what those guys do on hardtails", I think it's worth noting.

Adam Craig is a great bike handler, yes, but he'd get stomped into the ground by Schurter, Fumic, Fontana, and plenty of other "dirt roadies" when the trails point down. Not even close.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....*



XJaredX said:


> Dude, $20 gets you a Dirt Rag subscription, what's the matter with you?


I get that one too.


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

For that matter, does anybody here think that paying sponsor cannot bump up their "chili" ratings on the "consumer driven " review pages of Emptybeer? 

If you think those ratings are all legit, I have a bridge to sell you. A toll bridge. Cheap.

MBA is to informative mtb publications what emptybeer is to "consumer driven," entirely up-front, product reviews.

In the end, get your 411 on any given product/frame/bike from people who you know personally, and who you trust. And your own experience, if you have that. 
If you don't know anybody like that, then just do your best, and what I mean by that, is don't make ANY assumptions about the "evidence" offered up on emptybeer, or in MBA either. 
This goes too for all the other publications, maybe there is a degree or two of difference, but in the end, the reviewers paid to review products, well, they tend to err on the "half-full" side of how they see things.


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## JoePAz (May 7, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> You think pretty much any World Cup rider is closer to an all-mountain rider than roadie? Are we watching/racing the same xc races? I see a lot of xc racers shoulder or run their bike numerous times during many races.


I have ridden with some strong XC racers at the local level and been on the same course as pro endurance XC racers. Let me tell you these guys are fast. Fast on the climbs and fast on the descents. As for picking up and carrying your bike.. it happens. Some times the fastest way is to just pick-up the bike and run. Faster than trying an feature and failing (even putting a foot down) or risking a crash and injury. XC racing is about speed over the course not over just parts of course or style points. Longer races are also about energy management and going too hard into the red too soon or too often can make you slower overall.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

JoePAz said:


> I have ridden with some strong XC racers at the local level and been on the same course as pro endurance XC racers. Let me tell you these guys are fast. Fast on the climbs and fast on the descents. As for picking up and carrying your bike.. it happens. Some times the fastest way is to just pick-up the bike and run. Faster than trying an feature and failing (even putting a foot down) or risking a crash and injury. XC racing is about speed over the course not over just parts of course or style points. Longer races are also about energy management and going too hard into the red too soon or too often can make you slower overall.


Agreed.

Also, many of the local xc races around here end up incorporating some of the same trails that the local "enduro" series use.

I think it is ironic that people who mainly focus on the DH part of the ride are considered "ALL" mountain with more all-round mtb skills/strengths then the people who focus on racing up AND down the same mountain.


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I raced XC back in 1999 and 2000. I've been to a couple of NORBA Nationals since then, and I have watched numerous XC races on television in the mid '90s to the latest World Champs on redbull.com. I know what a cross-country race is. John Tomac was a road racer. Cadel Evans was a road racer. You won't see too many all-around excellent bike handlers winning cross-country races these days. You won't see Jared Graves or Brian Lopes win a World Cup XC race. Not that any road racer can win a cross-country race, but they would have a better chance than Mark Weir. I stand by my post. I also believe what is worth believing from mags and any other media source. Common sense and reading comprehension go a long way. I'm not sure what you took so personally, but your 2-posts ass is the clueless one. Maybe you should stop believing everything you read on mtbr.com.


Apples/oranges. The bikes, riders and trails were much different even 10 years ago. 20 years and it was whole different ball game.

Btw, Tomac was initially a BMX racer, turned to mountain bikes and dabbled in road racing. He was much more a mountain bike racer than anything else. And he dominated the entire sport for a few years.

Its a different world now. However, I agree about the importance of common sense and reading comprehension :thumbsup:

btw, regarding your point about nobody complaining about the bike bible test, it gets its fair share here: http://forums.mtbr.com/all-mountain/2015-bike-bible-944328.html


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

kapusta said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Also, many of the local xc races around here end up incorporating some of the same trails that the local "enduro" series use.
> 
> I think it is ironic that people who mainly focus on the DH part of the ride are considered "ALL" mountain with more all-round mtb skills/strengths then the people who focus on racing up AND down the same mountain.


XC have different interpretation in different areas.

Just this week I rode an XC course, after a lap I said to my wife, "no wonder people around here think XC is lame". I went and rode the "Enduro course" and noted that at home, and a lot of other areas, it would be XC course.


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## Glide the Clyde (Nov 12, 2009)

This is the kind of trail I ride and race. on Strava. Sounds about right to me.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Maybe my "offense" to the article is my lack of understanding of what "enduro" is. Here is the Richmond, VA metro area...we simply couldn't have enduro races so everything is XC here so we don't have any groomed XC courses. Sure, our trails aren't overly complicated but they do have features and require skill...not just a dirt road. Oh well, I guess I will cool off and read my Dirt Rag...funny that they both came on the same day!


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## Tillers_Rule (Sep 11, 2004)

Sometime last year, while waiting in line at the grocery store I was reading a comparison of some Scott bike that was available in 26, 27.5 and 29" wheel sizes. In this review, they had the 27.5" come out on top, followed by the 26, then the 29.

I actually found it quite comical, because up to that point, every article I read would go on and on, non-stop about how superior 29" wheels were.

Now, they are trying to pump their latest 'best' product and 29 is relegated to the loser bin.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

jhazard said:


> Apples/oranges. The bikes, riders and trails were much different even 10 years ago. 20 years and it was whole different ball game.
> 
> Btw, Tomac was initially a BMX racer, turned to mountain bikes and dabbled in road racing. He was much more a mountain bike racer than anything else. And he dominated the entire sport for a few years.
> 
> ...


Of course it's apples to oranges. That's my point. The definition of cross-country has changed over the years. Nowadays, cross-country is generally considered to consist if the easiest terrain. Obviously, certain courses and venues vary in difficulty and really aren't the current definition of cross-country. What used to be cross-country is now just trail riding. Look at the xc-labeled bikes in any company's lineup and you'll see what they are made to handle. Basically road bike light with a few inches of front suspension (maybe).

John Tomac was a very serious road racer for a while on the 7-eleven team. Then transferred to mountain bikes. Yes, I'm sure his bmx skills helped him win downhill races, too.

My comment about ragging on BIKE was meant for those posters ripping on MBA. I personally don't care about anybody's opinion about MBA one way or the other, but it's not like they're the only mag liking lots of products, these days.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Tillers_Rule said:


> Sometime last year, while waiting in line at the grocery store I was reading a comparison of some Scott bike that was available in 26, 27.5 and 29" wheel sizes. In this review, they had the 27.5" come out on top, followed by the 26, then the 29.
> 
> I actually found it quite comical, because up to that point, every article I read would go on and on, non-stop about how superior 29" wheels were.
> 
> Now, they are trying to pump their latest 'best' product and 29 is relegated to the loser bin.


Or maybe some people actually prefer 650bs. MBA has actually been pushing 650b for years, but don't let facts stop you from insulting people.


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## Tillers_Rule (Sep 11, 2004)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Or maybe some people actually prefer 650bs. MBA has actually been pushing 650b for years, but don't let facts stop you from insulting people.


Maybe you quoted the wrong reply, because I don't see any insults in mine. Especially insulting 'people' as I was referring to an article.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Xc racecourses have certainly turned into offroad roadie fests having been watered down and wussified over the years.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....*

I'm not sure where you guys are located, but they've become more and more technical in every area I've lived in.

Of course, if you're slow, that certainly dumbs things down. Speed makes everything harder, which I'm guessing slow people never get to appreciate.

In the last 5 years, I haven't done a race with more than 10% fire road. The vast majority is single track, everywhere.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

mountainbiker24 said:


> John Tomac was a very serious road racer for a while on the 7-eleven team. Then transferred to mountain bikes. Yes, I'm sure his bmx skills helped him win downhill races, too.


Point taken, mostly agree. I've become less a fan of most cycling magazines over the last 5 years, at least as far as bike and product tests or marketing go. Still enjoy Grimy Handshake in BIKE, and some of Dirt Rags content...

However, Tomac was a serious road racer for just 3 years (while still making time to hit some mountain bike races), out of a 20 year cycling career that consisted mostly of mountain bikes. Semantics? Maybe, but it seemed you were implying he was more known for Road Racing, which is not the case. He was, probably still IS an incredible athlete, no doubt - and I am a big fan of his son in supercross.

:thumbsup:


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Le Duke said:


> I'm not sure where you guys are located, but they've become more and more technical in every area I've lived in.
> 
> Of course, if you're slow, that certainly dumbs things down. Speed makes everything harder, which I'm guessing slow people never get to appreciate.
> 
> ...


I live in Le Duke's neck of the woods, and I can vouch that many of the XC races around here are very technical. The races at Pandapas, especially along the Gap side, are technical by any standard. Part of the expert course up at Mt Lake (Moonstomper) is as technical as anything I have ever ridden anywhere (if you want to call falling of my bike into a pile of rocks every 50 feet "riding"). The ridge on North Mt (part of the Dragon's Back/Tail race) is very technical.

Yet these are all "XC" races, mostly won by folks that to the untrained eye just look like roadies and riding "XC" bikes.

Every one of these races are perfect counterexamples to the ill-informed notion that XC bikes and XC racers only excel on smooth trails.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Le Duke said:


> I'm not sure where you guys are located, but they've become more and more technical in every area I've lived in.
> 
> Of course, if you're slow, that certainly dumbs things down. Speed makes everything harder, which I'm guessing slow people never get to appreciate.
> 
> ...


Exactly...ride moderately-technical trails very fast and its a whole different deal...and these guys are hike-a-biking all the tough areas either. Riding fast requires great skill...and fitness!


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## mudforlunch (Aug 9, 2004)

I trained and raced in one of the most prominent XC race series on the east coast for years. And I will never do it again. XC races are decided on power/weight ratios, that is all, and it will always be the case. You can argue on this forum until your faces are blue that your local trails are tech and blagh blagh blagh, MY local XC trails are tech too, neat. In a 1-3 hour race, the lightest person with the most power will win, and unfortunately genetics, body type, and most importantly FITNESS, play the biggest role in that, much more than bike handling skills ever will in XC. In almost every race I did I had better bike skills than almost my entire class, and it meant next to nothing, because I was on peoples wheels in every DH and tech section who slowed me up, and lighter guys than me passed me on the prolonged climbs. That's all XC is in a nutshell. Even after training my ass off and cutting all excess fat from my body, I was never gonna win that power/weight contest. 

You know why Enduro racing is blowing up? Because it's a MUCH better gauge of all-around mountain bike skill than XC is. You need to be able to sprint, gas up climbs, and hit every line perfect on the descents. Oh, and if you flat out or get a mechanical on a stage it won't end your day like flatting in an XC race will. Now that I've raced Enduro, I see absolutely no point to ever racing XC again.

All of this being said, the most dangerous and elite riders in both disciplines, are the most fit and the most technically apt. A genetically gifted rider, who is in peak fitness with superior riding skill, can do exceptionally well in any biking discipline. Jared Graves wins road races, Adam Craig wins enduro races.


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## mudforlunch (Aug 9, 2004)

And MBA is garbage, everyone has known they just pander to the highest ad paying companies in the industry for years, and the rest is just filler. And as an added bonus, when you buy that magazine you support the homophobic, conservative christian, right-wing zealot family that owns it too!


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

jhazard said:


> Point taken, mostly agree. I've become less a fan of most cycling magazines over the last 5 years, at least as far as bike and product tests or marketing go. Still enjoy Grimy Handshake in BIKE, and some of Dirt Rags content...
> 
> However, Tomac was a serious road racer for just 3 years (while still making time to hit some mountain bike races), out of a 20 year cycling career that consisted mostly of mountain bikes. Semantics? Maybe, but it seemed you were implying he was more known for Road Racing, which is not the case. He was, probably still IS an incredible athlete, no doubt - and I am a big fan of his son in supercross.
> 
> :thumbsup:


Huh, I thought he raced road longer than that... I guess I'll meet you in the middle! Mountain biking has become very specialized, these days, and I wonder if we'll see anybody as dominant across the board as he was. I wish enduro was around when he was in his prime.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Tillers_Rule said:


> Maybe you quoted the wrong reply, because I don't see any insults in mine. Especially insulting 'people' as I was referring to an article.


I quoted the correct post. You weren't insulting the writers and editors like many other people, but you said that MBA changed their reviews to push industry hype. At least in this case, they have been pushing 650b since at least 2008.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....*

Apparently you haven't watched recent XCO races, where a physically weaker racer has put gaps into the field on each downhill section and made the other guys blow themselves up catching him on the flats and climbs. Nino Schurter. World class, but there are many guys that are faster than him going uphill. But, in 3 of the last 6 years, he's worn the rainbow stripes, because he's the best overall.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Huh, I thought he raced road longer than that... I guess I'll meet you in the middle! Mountain biking has become very specialized, these days, and I wonder if we'll see anybody as dominant across the board as he was. I wish enduro was around when he was in his prime.


I don't think you realize on just how much XC racing has changed. But it has change quite the opposite direction that you think it has. I been racing since the mid-90s and can attest that XC course are a lot more technical and XC racers are a lot more technical skilled.

I live in BC where numerous rounds of our Enduro series were won by XC racers. One of our local XC racers went to the Enduro world series final, he spent the entire weekend battling with Steve Pete, Greg Minnar, and Nicolas Vouilloz. Although Minnar and Vouilloz nipped him in the end, other XC racers there finished in front of those guys.

Looking at the results of the Rockshox Enduro Challenge the lone high level XC racer who entered it, Paul Van de Ploeg (XC Eliminator world champion and a hell of road sprinter), placed seventh, 8 seconds behind Sam Hill. He was only 25 seconds of Troy Brosnan who was second. Everybody got spanked by Jared Graves though, man can that guy ride.

The only place where top XC racers really struggle compared to gravity racers is jumping. A big jump on an XC course is really small when compared to that found on a gravity course.

I know I am not going to change your opinion. But I suspect that you haven't recently ridden with a really good XC racer. If you had, we wouldn't be having this conversation.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Alright. I give up. Cross-country is just as technically demanding as enduro and trail riding, despite the differences in bike line ups for the different disciplines from every bike company I am aware of. Enduro is the end-all be-all of bike handling and is consistent from one course to the next, since a cross-country racer beat some downhill racers. Cross-country racers have comparable bike-handling skills to enduro and downhill racers. Road racers can never transfer their skills to cross-country racing, because mountain biking in any form is in no way comparable to road riding. Likewise, a top downhill, slalom, jumper, or street rider can compete with the top cross-country riders, because of the incredible technicalness of cross-country trails. MBA loves every bike ever made and is getting more biased every day because of the infinite number of ads they print. Anybody that thinks cross-country courses are relatively tame compared to many backcountry trails or trails with built stunts/emphasis on technical downhills has never ridden with a really good cross-country racer. Does that cover the majority consensus here?


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Oh, and it is interesting that Nino trains on a road bike and plans on competing in some road events rather than training on a downhill bike and competing in some downhill events to sharpen his skills. I'm not saying he's a poor bike handler. I'm just saying that the majority of cross-country racers would be more comfortable in a road race than a downhill race, and there is no form of mountain biking closer to road riding than cross-country. Anybody that truly believes that this is wrong is either fooling themselves or looking for an argument.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road ridi...*



mountainbiker24 said:


> Oh, and it is interesting that Nino trains on a road bike and plans on competing in some road events rather than training on a downhill bike and competing in some downhill events to sharpen his skills.


I'm guessing you haven't seen the videos of him riding with Brian Lopes. Or with Brendan Fairclough.

Oh. And his dad is the Swiss National Team DH coach. But you knew that, right?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> I'm guessing you haven't seen the videos of him riding with Brian Lopes. Or with Brendan Fairclough.
> 
> Oh. And his dad is the Swiss National Team DH coach. But you knew that, right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I actually did, and the vid advertised them as opposites. He appears to be a very good rider, but he's still not at the level of a Brian Lopes or Brendan Fairclough. It's not an i insult. I'm just saying that a top cross-country rider must have the fitness that comes from hours and hours of saddle time. Of course they're bound to get some skills along the way. Probably more than I'll ever have. For most riders, those hours and hours of saddle time come on the road, since most cross-country (not enduro, stage, or your local club) races are relatively tame. Yes, I've seen the latest tracks, and while I'll agree that they are becoming more technical, it is still the fittest that win. Why is this such an issue? XC riding is defined as less technical terrain than most trail riders ride on. Some riders' trails are best ridden on cross-country bikes, while others are best ridden on trail or all-mountain bikes. Look at the product lines. Why are people turning something so simple into something so stupid?


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## Old Ray (Sep 5, 2010)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Huh, I thought he raced road longer than that... I guess I'll meet you in the middle! Mountain biking has become very specialized, these days, and I wonder if we'll see anybody as dominant across the board as he was. I wish enduro was around when he was in his prime.


I bet HE wishes today's enduro-type bikes were around back then!


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## Tillers_Rule (Sep 11, 2004)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I quoted the correct post. You weren't insulting the writers and editors like many other people, but you said that MBA changed their reviews to push industry hype. At least in this case, they have been pushing 650b since at least 2008.


I was commenting on the article based on how I interpreted it. You obviously interpreted it differently. So be it. I never stated MBA 'changed' their reviews.

Lighten up and go enjoy a ride on your 27.5" (I'm just guessing that's what you ride based on your defense and need for approval of such size tire).


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## Swissam (Apr 8, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Oh, and it is interesting that Nino trains on a road bike and plans on competing in some road events rather than training on a downhill bike and competing in some downhill events to sharpen his skills. I'm not saying he's a poor bike handler. I'm just saying that the majority of cross-country racers would be more comfortable in a road race than a downhill race, and there is no form of mountain biking closer to road riding than cross-country. Anybody that truly believes that this is wrong is either fooling themselves or looking for an argument.


The Anthertons train on road bikes as well. Shaun Palmer never trained. At one point in time I had a bicycle, and I rode it. Don't know what kind of bike it was or what kind of riding I was doing but I was riding a bicycle.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Swissam said:


> The Anthertons train on road bikes as well. Shaun Palmer never trained. At one point in time I had a bicycle, and I rode it. Don't know what kind of bike it was or what kind of riding I was doing but I was riding a bicycle.


Good for you. I also had a bicycle and rode it. I still do, actually. It's nice to have a bicycle that perfectly fits my trails and riding preferences, nowadays.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Tillers_Rule said:


> I was commenting on the article based on how I interpreted it. You obviously interpreted it differently. So be it. I never stated MBA 'changed' their reviews.
> 
> Lighten up and go enjoy a ride on your 27.5" (I'm just guessing that's what you ride based on your defense and need for approval of such size tire).


You definitely implied it, then. Quite obviously, actually. I actually have a 26", 650b, and a 29er. I like them all for different purposes. I just don't appreciate people telling me what I should prefer when they have no clue. I don't recall mentioning wheel size preferences in this thread, other than stating the fact that MBA has been a long time supporter. Never asked you or anybody else for approval. This thread is so asinine that I can't help but try and add some common sense to it. However, it seems that some of the posters here refuse to use common sense. Nothing MBA printed in what is being discussed here is wrong. Must be a bunch of self-righteous cross-country pricks that can't accept the fact that cross-country is now viewed and marketed as more mellow terrain than other forms of mountain biking. It's not an insult. It's just a classification. I don't understand why that is such a big deal. If nobody can explain to me or anybody else why MBA was incorrect in calling xc the closest form of mountain biking to road riding, then this thread is done. Monstercross is obviously closer, as is cyclocross, but those aren't mountain biking, in my opinion.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

I think some folks are passionate about disliking MBA. I don't much care for it's corporate flavor, and don't subscribe to it. I'm more of a Dirt-Rag guy. But so what? To each their own. Pouring that much passion into a magazine's classification of xc seems silly to me. But you can't control MTBR threads, nor what gets people excited. Getting worked up about a thread about MBA is about the same as getting worked up about MBA in the first place.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

Gasp4Air said:


> I think some folks are passionate about disliking MBA. I don't much care for it's corporate flavor, and don't subscribe to it. I'm more of a Dirt-Rag guy. But so what? To each their own. Pouring that much passion into a magazine's classification of xc seems silly to me. But you can't control MTBR threads, nor what gets people excited. Getting worked up about a thread about MBA is about the same as getting worked up about MBA in the first place.


Hells, I just began subscribing to Bicycling Mag due to a relatively new interest in road riding and racing.


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

This thread is hilarious. 

Nino spends significant time on longer travel bikes for training. But yes, he does train a lot on a road bike. He would be stupid not to. He's gifted in technical sections and is training his "weakness", if you can call it that. To win at XCO you need to be fast and an excellent bike handler. There are guys that are REALLY good on the climbs but struggle on the downhills... you don't see them winning. They're in the mix at the front end, sure. But, if there are people just as/nearly as fast as you going up... but better in the tech... you're going to come up short most of the time. 



I also don't understand this fascintation that XC used to be so hardcore and it's just for roadies now. Every course I've been on for years has been getting harder and harder technically. Maybe we have some memory loss on what xc courses used to look like, induced by the beating our brains took from riding them with 1.8" tires at 40psi and rigid forks?


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## whoda*huck (Feb 12, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> ...... (Its $20/yr&#8230;why not right?) .....


I think the inanity of the article (and most of the things they publish) answers this question.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I actually did, and the vid advertised them as opposites. He appears to be a very good rider, but he's still not at the level of a Brian Lopes or Brendan Fairclough. It's not an i insult. I'm just saying that a top cross-country rider must have the fitness that comes from hours and hours of saddle time. Of course they're bound to get some skills along the way. Probably more than I'll ever have. For most riders, those hours and hours of saddle time come on the road, since most cross-country (not enduro, stage, or your local club) races are relatively tame. Yes, I've seen the latest tracks, and while I'll agree that they are becoming more technical, it is still the fittest that win. Why is this such an issue? XC riding is defined as less technical terrain than most trail riders ride on. Some riders' trails are best ridden on cross-country bikes, while others are best ridden on trail or all-mountain bikes. Look at the product lines. Why are people turning something so simple into something so stupid?


In mountain biking XC is closer to road racing then any other discipline. A lot of XC racers can sucusfully make the transition to road racing, not a lot of them making the transition to DH racing.

My issues stem from this statement:
"You won't see too many all-around excellent bike handlers winning cross-country races these days"

It should be, you only see all-around excellent bike handlers winning cross-country races these days.

It can be argued that Enduro is great test of all-around bike handling skills. When top XC racers dabble in Enduro they are just as quick as the top DH riders. (Although both groups get crushed by the Enduro specialist)


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## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

I call my riding cross country... Because I concern myself with loops, long(ish) distances, and I try just as hard on the climbs as I do on the descents (most days). That doesn't mean I'm not riding techincal stuff, descending fast or even jumping and riding technical trail features... I do all of that on every single ride.

A friend of mine recently said he wanted to do one race rather than another because it's more 'trail riding as opposed to cross country.' This baffled me. First, neither are particularly technical in my mind and second I'd never really thought of 'trail riding' as a discipline. A style of bike sure, but a riding discipline?

I honestly think that a lot it comes down to lycra. No one wants to be lumped in with the full lycra kitted dudes, so they make up names to distinguish themselves. 

"I mountain bike." 
"Oh like those guys in full spandex suits with carbon fiber bikes?"
"Nah bro, I'm a trail/enduro/all-mountain rider."


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## forkboy (Apr 20, 2004)

briscoelab said:


> This thread is hilarious.
> 
> But yes, he does train a lot on a road bike. He would be stupid not to.
> 
> I also don't understand this fascintation that XC used to be so hardcore and it's just for roadies now. Every course I've been on for years has been getting harder and harder technically.


This.

Disk brakes, reliable suspension, and fat tires run tubeless have changed the courses FAR more than the courses have actually changed.


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## Ailuropoda (Dec 15, 2010)

I finally gave up on Mountain Bike Action. 

They reviewed an electric-powered "mountain bike" in their last issue. Just kind of snuck it in.

I know they are powered by their advertisers...but that's just jumping the shark for me.

It's a stupid magazine, anyway. All the reviews are the same and usually stellar; except they will sometimes pick on small companies with no clout.

The few useful articles are not worth the cover price.


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## J-Flo (Apr 23, 2012)

If Enduro races were not staged, but instead timed from the beginning with a mass start, then they would be XC races, probably many of the same riders would be at the top, it would be scarier because the riders would bunch up and all would use lighter, shorter travel bikes to excel on the climbs.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

J-Flo said:


> If Enduro races were not staged, but instead timed from the beginning with a mass start, then they would be XC races, probably many of the same riders would be at the top, it would be scarier because the riders would bunch up and all would use lighter, shorter travel bikes to excel on the climbs.


Instead, the events are many hours long, with only 30-40min of actual racing per day. They cover the same distance that an XC race would, or less, just a hell of a lot slower. And, they climb gravel or paved fire roads. Ironic, isn't it?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

TheDwayyo said:


> I call my riding cross country... Because I concern myself with loops, long(ish) distances, and I try just as hard on the climbs as I do on the descents (most days). That doesn't mean I'm not riding techincal stuff, descending fast or even jumping and riding technical trail features... I do all of that on every single ride.
> 
> A friend of mine recently said he wanted to do one race rather than another because it's more 'trail riding as opposed to cross country.' This baffled me. First, neither are particularly technical in my mind and second I'd never really thought of 'trail riding' as a discipline. A style of bike sure, but a riding discipline?
> 
> ...


Bingo.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Funny how this thread went! Always fun here on mtbr. I love how wheelsize came into it. There is a prevailing thought that skinny lycra-wearing XC racers are not bike handlers…really? I would argue that most top-shelf XC racers can own 99% of the folks who frequent this board on super-technical stuff up and down. I agree with the comment above about power/weight…it is similar to road in this respect in that fitness plays a large role in how folks will fare in a 20 mile race. He/she who is the fittest combined with bike handling skill can ride the fastest for the longest period of time which is what a XC race is about…say it again…fastest for longest period of time..fastest up..fastest down..fastest over technical terrain. The comments that folks can ride faster than XC riders is incorrect..if you could ride faster than them you would beat them in the race. What I think you are trying to say is that if you and a fast lycra-clad XC rider rode a short technical section of trail, you would do it faster..is that correct? Man….always comes down to folks that just can’t get past the lycra. Finally, of course XC racers train on the road...you have to have fitness to push hard for a long time and you just don't get it solely riding mountainbikes.


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## Burt4x4 (Feb 21, 2013)

lycra & clipless = roadies
baggys & flats = mountain bikers

Oh helllll...just RIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

LMN said:


> In mountain biking XC is closer to road racing then any other discipline. A lot of XC racers can sucusfully make the transition to road racing, not a lot of them making the transition to DH racing.
> 
> My issues stem from this statement:
> "You won't see too many all-around excellent bike handlers winning cross-country races these days"
> ...


I agree with this. I just think most cross-country racers are closer to roadies than gravity riders. That's all.


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## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road ridi...*



TheDwayyo said:


> I
> 
> I honestly think that a lot it comes down to lycra. No one wants to be lumped in with the full lycra kitted dudes, so they make up names to distinguish themselves.
> 
> ...


You just won this thread.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Agree 100%. There was a killer pic on this site year back that showed a guy in a standard cycling kit that won a local DH race on his 29er HT standing on the podium by 2 other guys with their full-on gnar look going on....hilarious.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I can't believe I found it....I am an mtbr search God!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^They are just uncomfortable with his man-buldge.


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## RS VR6 (Mar 29, 2007)

Haha...thats pretty awesome.

The podium...not the bulge...


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## briscoelab (Oct 27, 2006)

LMN said:


> Jared Graves won a round of Australian XC series last year. Just saying...


Graves is a total freak show. Serious. I LOVE watching him race. He's such a strong rider in general and can serious make everyone look stupid on an enduro course. I think his "xc/roadie/whatever this thread thinks you should call it" really helps him on the eunduro courses as well. He's just so much fresher from not being as fatigued.

At Whistler, when the time table was really short between timed stages this became very apparent.


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## HPIguy (Sep 16, 2014)

TiGeo said:


> I can't believe I found it....I am an mtbr search God!


Dude on the left looks super pissed LOL. What if I wear my lycra, while riding my fat bike, on perfectly dry trails during the summer? Does that make it less weird, or more weird?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^I would defer to MBA and see what they think. I would say that is pretty close to road riding.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

TiGeo said:


> I can't believe I found it....I am an mtbr search God!


I raced that one. Not exactly a technical course.

Nobody in this thread is saying lycra sucks. Just saying that cross-country is the closest form of mountain biking to road riding. Nobody said cross-country racers don't have any bike skills. Jared Graves is about as close to an all-around mountain biker as there is. Doesn't change the fact that bike companies market and define their short travel, lightweight bikes as cross-country. Less capable than other offerings for a reason, and share a lot of the technology with road bikes. Yes, some people can win "downhill" races on a hardtail. Good riders can do well on most bikes. If you're a road racer and want to get into mountain biking, what type of race are you going to enter? Not a trick question, here.


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## J.B. Weld (Aug 13, 2012)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Nobody said cross-country racers don't have any bike skills.


Someone did.



mountainbiker24 said:


> You won't see too many all-around excellent bike handlers winning cross-country races these days.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road ridi...*



mountainbiker24 said:


> I raced that one. Not exactly a technical course.
> 
> Nobody in this thread is saying lycra sucks. Just saying that cross-country is the closest form of mountain biking to road riding. Nobody said cross-country racers don't have any bike skills. Jared Graves is about as close to an all-around mountain biker as there is. Doesn't change the fact that bike companies market and define their short travel, lightweight bikes as cross-country. Less capable than other offerings for a reason, and share a lot of the technology with road bikes. Yes, some people can win "downhill" races on a hardtail. Good riders can do well on most bikes. If you're a road racer and want to get into mountain biking, what type of race are you going to enter? Not a trick question, here.


Less capable? That's subjective. My 140mm bike is great, but it sucks at the things my HT excels at. The opposite is true, too.

Anyone who claims an enduro bike pedals or climbs like an XC bike is lying to you. Regardless of how awesome the suspension is, it doesn't. Just like anyone that says a 120mm bike descends like a 150mm bike. No. It doesn't.

"'More capable' of the things you prefer a bike to be good at" might be a better statement.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I raced that one. Not exactly a technical course.
> 
> Nobody in this thread is saying lycra sucks. Just saying that cross-country is the closest form of mountain biking to road riding. Nobody said cross-country racers don't have any bike skills. Jared Graves is about as close to an all-around mountain biker as there is. Doesn't change the fact that bike companies market and define their short travel, lightweight bikes as cross-country. Less capable than other offerings for a reason, and share a lot of the technology with road bikes. Yes, some people can win "downhill" races on a hardtail. Good riders can do well on most bikes. If you're a road racer and want to get into mountain biking, what type of race are you going to enter? Not a trick question, here.


The Specy Epic has what in common with my Roubaix? I would say the Epic and Enduro share a lot more in common.

On another topic, I didn't start the thread talking about racing even though it seems to have evolved that way. If you are a road rider looking to get into offroad, sure, XC is it b/c...XC is all mountainbike riding to me with the exception of dedicated gravity DH/shuttle riding...which was the point of my OP. You can also race XC with just about any kind of bike where the gravity stuff (DH, enduro) really require a special bike that isn't going to be as fun to ride all the time on "normal" XC trails that most folks are likely riding.


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## Esses (May 10, 2012)

Judge for yourself&#8230;

:cornut:


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## Br80 (Sep 10, 2013)

Captain obvious here...

Wouldn't riding your mountain bike on the road be as close as you can get to road riding?

B


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## Esses (May 10, 2012)

Uh… If you are riding on the road, I think that's road riding on a mountain bike.


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## leeboh (Aug 5, 2011)

MBA, sad. Try Dirt Rag or BIKE. Much better. A little more soul and in depth reviews and trips.


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

Esses said:


> Judge for yourself&#8230;
> 
> :cornut:


Well, if the majority xc courses have a similar level of difficulty, why are the majority of riders having a difficult time with this one?

Or are those all novice racers?


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## Jerome (Dec 21, 2003)

Please delete


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The ones wrecking weren't going fast enough it appears. Rock gardens like are defiantly challenging on a HT w/skinnier tires..speed is your friend.


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

It appears that the majority are way out of their comfort zone. 

To be fair, a few of them really kill it though, was cool to see.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

J.B. Weld said:


> Someone did.


You can have some skills without being an excellent bike handler. There is a range of skill levels, you know. Not contradictory at all. Not many top cross-country racers have comparable skills to the top gravity racers. No contradiction or stuttering in my comments. Learn to read and then speak. Don't worry, guys. I'm done talking common sense here. Enjoy your circle jerk.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....*

A member posted this from his/her race a while ago; most of the people shown were in the novice/beginner class. I think it's in Canada.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Br80 (Sep 10, 2013)

Esses said:


> Uh&#8230; If you are riding on the road, I think that's road riding on a mountain bike.


Isn't that what we are talking about here? I'm no Einstein, but wouldn't riding a mountain bike on a road be closer to road riding then riding on a xc course?

Make sure you think about it before you respond

Seems like an awfully silly topic to argue 

B


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## Esses (May 10, 2012)

Br80 said:


> Isn't that what we are talking about here? I'm no Einstein, but wouldn't riding a mountain bike on a road be closer to road riding then riding on a xc course?
> 
> Make sure you think about it before you respond
> 
> ...


Definitely a silly topic to argue, but it is the internet, so&#8230;

I think if you are riding a bike on the road, that IS road riding. You can road ride on a mountain bike, road bike, or whatever&#8230; If you are riding a road bike on dirt that's, uh, cyclocross? Now I'm confused...


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## Br80 (Sep 10, 2013)

Esses said:


> ... If you are riding a road bike on dirt that's, uh, cyclocross? Now I'm confused...


it certainly isn't mountain biking! And I would and will continue to argue that the reverse is also true.


----------



## Fluidworks (Oct 3, 2008)

People are very mad in this thread. If it's any consolation I hate everyone of you.


----------



## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^yes!


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## Esses (May 10, 2012)

The only person mad is mountainbiker24. Everyone else is engaged in a friendly debate, right?

Here's another one&#8230;






Sick bike handling skills, bra. :cornut:

Seriously, though... It must be tough to ride that stuff with the seat up that high.

And I still think it's the venue that determines the riding, not the kind of bike. I could ride cross-country on a downhill bike and it would still be cross-country.


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## forkboy (Apr 20, 2004)

jhazard said:


> He was, probably still IS an incredible athlete, no doubt
> :thumbsup:


He is.

The guys from that era are amazing. I run into them at events from time to time. They're in their 50s, don't appear to be in any kind of shape - and can drop the hammer hard enough to make you cry.


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## Br80 (Sep 10, 2013)

Fluidworks said:


> People are very mad in this thread...


The only thing I'm mad at is that Im posting on this goofball topic instead of riding!


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## Fluidworks (Oct 3, 2008)

Br80 said:


> The only thing I'm mad at is that Im posting on this goofball topic instead of riding!


I agree, though I'm at work so I can't ride either way.


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## rockhopper97 (Jul 30, 2014)

lets not forget urban mountain bike riding..... some of it can be street riding...and also riding down stairs and such....thats what most of my riding is right now


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## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....*

Just been for a ride, CX bike on MTB trails. Allowed to post now.

Get 50 enduroists or downhillers together and start the race.
Wonder if there'd be any carnage?


----------



## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

mountainbiker24 said:


> Nobody in this thread is saying lycra sucks.


I am.


----------



## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm going to start a thread asking for advice on lights, and see how long it takes for lycra show up.


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## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

Esses said:


> The only person mad is mountainbiker24. Everyone else is engaged in a friendly debate, right?
> 
> Here's another one&#8230;
> 
> ...


Sweet little video.

Although the crash at the start of the women's race in Czech Republic was hard to watch. A good friend was caught in that and has still not recovered from the injuries. Still can't ride a mountain bike.


----------



## TheDwayyo (Dec 2, 2014)

Gasp4Air said:


> I'm going to start a thread asking for advice on lights, and see how long it takes for lycra show up.


Good idea! A light directed at a Lycra-clad rider's bulge _would_ certainly unnerve the competition.


----------



## forkboy (Apr 20, 2004)

Esses said:


> Seriously, though... It must be tough to ride that stuff with the seat up that high.
> .


Huh. I don't find anything "funny" about those crashes....

There are sections in that video that are harder than a few of the "Enduro" courses around here.


----------



## mudforlunch (Aug 9, 2004)

NordieBoy said:


> Just been for a ride, CX bike on MTB trails. Allowed to post now.
> 
> Get 50 enduroists or downhillers together and start the race.
> Wonder if there'd be any carnage?


Wan't a cookie? Riding a CX bike on most singletrack is not difficult if you know what you're doing.

50 DH dudes going at once happens, its called Super-D. Less carnage than you would expect. And, you know why Enduro and DH races are more fun? Because starting 100 people at the same time IS STUPID. Oh boy, I really miss my XC days when I had to blow myself up to get into the woods just to avoid being stuck on racer's wheels in tech and DH sections FOR THE ENTIRE RACE.

How about we take 50 Cat 2 XC dudes to Plattekill instead. How many do you think would need to be medevaced out before they even made it to the bottom?

As for the rest of the thread.....I think its fairly obvious and agreeable that the majority of pro XC racers have remarkable bike handling skills, and the majority of pro Enduro racers have remarkable fitness as well. Neither one of those groups would get to the point be having that much of a weakness in their riding. What we are talking about here is the AVERAGE XC racer, or the AVERAGE Enduro racer. Take 50 Cat 2 XC guys, and 50 Cat 2 Enduro guys, and you tell me what group will have the better technical riders, and which group more resembles roadies off of pavement. Anyone who has raced both disciplines at this level can attest to this.


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## mudforlunch (Aug 9, 2004)

forkboy said:


> Huh. I don't find anything "funny" about those crashes....
> 
> There are sections in that video that are harder than a few of the "Enduro" courses around here.


....and a whole lot of people in that video riding them way too slow, not committing, picking bad lines, and not shifting their weight correctly. If you ride like that, enjoy crashing.


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## Speed Goat (Dec 31, 2013)

mudforlunch said:


> ....and a whole lot of people in that video riding them way too slow, not committing, picking bad lines, and not shifting their weight correctly. If you ride like that, enjoy crashing.


I'd like to see how many of you who are taking the "XC riders can't handle technical" smack do on a 100mm hardtail 29'er, rather than your 7" FS 27.5 over the same course. The bull poo is so thick on this thread I'd need a fat bike to ride over it.


----------



## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

LMN said:


> XC have different interpretation in different areas.
> 
> Just this week I rode an XC course, after a lap I said to my wife, "no wonder people around here think XC is lame". I went and rode the "Enduro course" and noted that at home, and a lot of other areas, it would be XC course.


Quoted for truth


----------



## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> I'm not sure where you guys are located, but they've become more and more technical in every area I've lived in.
> 
> Of course, if you're slow, that certainly dumbs things down. Speed makes everything harder, which I'm guessing slow people never get to appreciate.
> 
> ...


I wish I could say I had the same experience. My experience has been the complete opposite.


----------



## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

This thread is ridiculous. I can't believe I read through some of it. People get so flustered over anything and everything. Sheesh!


----------



## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

Speed Goat said:


> I'd like to see how many of you who are taking the "XC riders can't handle technical" smack do on a 100mm hardtail 29'er, rather than your 7" FS 27.5 over the same course. The bull poo is so thick on this thread I'd need a fat bike to ride over it.


Ok.

Airborne Guardian 29er






Raider's Ridge, Durango on the Airborne Guardian 29er from J Hazard on Vimeo.

Specialized Enduro (older vids, I'm a better rider now)






Pre Spring Raider Ride from J Hazard on Vimeo.

Maybe not as tricky of moves as in the race, but one of the more technical places available at the time. I don't hide behind my bike


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## forkboy (Apr 20, 2004)

jhazard said:


> Pre Spring Raider Ride


So you're the one blowing out all the corners....



RR on a FS is easier on the lower back than a HT, that's for sure.


----------



## NordieBoy (Sep 26, 2004)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....*

Mmmm, cookies...

Super-d over here is setting off at 30s intervals. No mass start. No comparison.

No idea what Cat 2 or Plattekill are.

I don't know what race organizers are smoking sometimes.
We've just had a triple header, DH on Saturday, XC on Sunday and Enduro Monday.
The last leg of the Enduro was a track they don't even race DH on. 1/3 of the field did not get a time for that leg. 1 out of 9 juniors completed it.
The downhill part of the XC at race pace was more suited to 120mm and more of front and rear suspension. Not 80-100mm travel hard tails.

The ones most resembling roadies off pavement are the ones in Lycra and clipless shoes. Baggies and flats would get you laughed out of the peleton.

The top DH'ers here are usually right up near the top in Strava climbing sections too.

A pro in any sport usually has pretty damn good skills and fitness.


----------



## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

mountainbiker24 said:


> I raced XC back in 1999 and 2000. I've been to a couple of NORBA Nationals since then, and I have watched numerous XC races on television in the mid '90s to the latest World Champs on redbull.com. I know what a cross-country race is. John Tomac was a road racer. Cadel Evans was a road racer. You won't see too many all-around excellent bike handlers winning cross-country races these days. You won't see Jared Graves or Brian Lopes win a World Cup XC race. Not that any road racer can win a cross-country race, but they would have a better chance than Mark Weir. I stand by my post. I also believe what is worth believing from mags and any other media source. Common sense and reading comprehension go a long way. I'm not sure what you took so personally, but your 2-posts ass is the clueless one. Maybe you should stop believing everything you read on mtbr.com.


Ignorance is bliss.


----------



## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

taint taco juice said:


> Absolutely false.
> 
> You need to brush up on your history if you're going to continue to pretend to be some kind of XC OG.


Tomac came out of BMX, then MTB when he did both XC and DH. During his pro MTB career he was semi serious about road racing and raced domestically on the 7-11 team and I might be wrong but another team also. While the road racing helped his motor and he certainly didn't embarrass himslef, he was never a star on the road.

Numerous elite and successful XC MTB racers have switched to the road and had very distinguished careers. Contrary to what the many ignorant posters here in MTBR think, road racing takes a great deal of bike handing (albeit different from MTB) skills and some MTB skills can be useful in road racing and some road skills can be useful in MTB racing.


----------



## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

Crankout said:


> Xc racecourses have certainly turned into offroad roadie fests having been watered down and wussified over the years.


The ignorance is strong in this one.


----------



## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

mudforlunch said:


> I trained and raced in one of the most prominent XC race series on the east coast for years. And I will never do it again. XC races are decided on power/weight ratios, that is all, and it will always be the case. You can argue on this forum until your faces are blue that your local trails are tech and blagh blagh blagh, MY local XC trails are tech too, neat. In a 1-3 hour race, the lightest person with the most power will win, and unfortunately genetics, body type, and most importantly FITNESS, play the biggest role in that, much more than bike handling skills ever will in XC. In almost every race I did I had better bike skills than almost my entire class, and it meant next to nothing, because I was on peoples wheels in every DH and tech section who slowed me up, and lighter guys than me passed me on the prolonged climbs. That's all XC is in a nutshell. Even after training my ass off and cutting all excess fat from my body, I was never gonna win that power/weight contest.
> 
> You know why Enduro racing is blowing up? Because it's a MUCH better gauge of all-around mountain bike skill than XC is. You need to be able to sprint, gas up climbs, and hit every line perfect on the descents. Oh, and if you flat out or get a mechanical on a stage it won't end your day like flatting in an XC race will. Now that I've raced Enduro, I see absolutely no point to ever racing XC again.
> 
> All of this being said, the most dangerous and elite riders in both disciplines, are the most fit and the most technically apt. A genetically gifted rider, who is in peak fitness with superior riding skill, can do exceptionally well in any biking discipline. Jared Graves wins road races, Adam Craig wins enduro races.


So in other words you're not very fit. :lol:


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## MASC1104 (Feb 2, 2015)

I just like to look at the pretty pictures.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

zrm said:


> Ignorance is bliss.


How am I ignorant, exactly? Prove me wrong. Nobody else has. Just a bunch of people running their "mouths" about how their personal experiences are more accurate than mine without any facts to support them. Lots of comments about my comments being ignorant and stupid, but nothing to prove it.

In my experiences racing and spectating, generally, cross-country is the least technically demanding form of mountain bike racing. Some courses are very technical, but many are not. Obviously, every course is different, just like every rider. Top xc racers ride their bikes a ton. Of course they have some skills. Road riders are also very skilled at what they do. However, a road racer transferring to mountain biking will have the easiest time in a cross-country race, rather than an enduro, super d, or downhill. I just don't understand how that is even debatable. John Tomac raced everything, including road (I apologize for stating he raced road before mountain when it was actually an overlapping time period), Cadel Evans went from mountain to road, and many other road and xc racers have made the transition as well. Not many road racers race downhill or enduro, or vice-versa. There are always a few exceptions, but generally speaking... I'm still waiting for a decent discussion about this, rather than just some opinionated garbage calling me "ignorant" or "absolutely false".


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....*



Esses said:


> Judge for yourself&#8230;
> 
> :cornut:


That drop isn't particularly large, and the rock garden looks imposing but is really mostly flat. It reminds me of lower gypsy at Northstar.

But, still requires a lot of skill on the bikes that they're on. Besides the fact that they're on shorter suspension and often hardtails, what makes it particularly hard is doing it without your seat dropped.


----------



## ReneStops (Feb 7, 2015)

Some of the videos are really harsh! I am not sure how long it would take for me to recover from some of them...


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....*



forkboy said:


> So you're the one blowing out all the corners....
> 
> 
> 
> RR on a FS is easier on the lower back than a HT, that's for sure.


 lol. Yeah, that trail will pound you for sure, but love the rocks and the exposure in a couple spots can be distracting. Dont live there anymore - thats one the trails I miss most.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

taint taco juice said:


> You continue to be really confused and struggle with simple concepts.
> 
> It wasn't my opinion, let alone "opinionated garbage," that the idiocy that you posted ("John Tomac was a very serious road racer for a while on the 7-eleven team. Then transferred to mountain bikes.") was absolutely false.
> 
> ...


John Tomac was a very serious road racer for a while on the 7-Eleven team. I was mistaken in that he raced both mountain bikes and road bikes early in his mountain biking career. I thought he raced road first. I was mistaken on that part, but I wouldn't consider my entire statement "absolutely false". Thanks for pointing out my error without being a dick, though.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

I agree that a road racer is going to transfer to XC first and even an XC racer is more likely to transfer to road then Downhill. Fitness plays much more of roll in XC racing then DH racing (although most people grossly underestimate how fit you have to be to race DH at a high level). Plus road racing pays way more than DH.

I don't think you actually understand what technical skills are. Being technically skilled is related to the equipment you ride. Being able to descend fast on a downhill bike is completely different then being able to descend fast on an XC race bike. The style and technique is completely different. Someone who is very technically skilled on a DH bike maybe completely useless on an XC bike, or vise versa.

My brother-in-law was a world cup DH riders. For years he was one of the best downhillers in Canada. If we are both on DH bikes, he crushes me. But on an XC bike, a proper XC bike(no-dropper, XC tires, etc...) we are pretty equal. And I am not a world class XC racer by any means.

That is why when you put XC racers and DH racers on trail bikes, they descend about the same speed.



mountainbiker24 said:


> How am I ignorant, exactly? Prove me wrong. Nobody else has. Just a bunch of people running their "mouths" about how their personal experiences are more accurate than mine without any facts to support them. Lots of comments about my comments being ignorant and stupid, but nothing to prove it.
> 
> In my experiences racing and spectating, generally, cross-country is the least technically demanding form of mountain bike racing. Some courses are very technical, but many are not. Obviously, every course is different, just like every rider. Top xc racers ride their bikes a ton. Of course they have some skills. Road riders are also very skilled at what they do. However, a road racer transferring to mountain biking will have the easiest time in a cross-country race, rather than an enduro, super d, or downhill. I just don't understand how that is even debatable. John Tomac raced everything, including road (I apologize for stating he raced road before mountain when it was actually an overlapping time period), Cadel Evans went from mountain to road, and many other road and xc racers have made the transition as well. Not many road racers race downhill or enduro, or vice-versa. There are always a few exceptions, but generally speaking... I'm still waiting for a decent discussion about this, rather than just some opinionated garbage calling me "ignorant" or "absolutely false".


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## IFallDown (Mar 2, 2014)

My bike is better than yours, 

My ridding style is better than yours, 

My trails are harder than yours,

My speed is faster than yours, 

My gear is better than yours,

My ideas are better than yours, 

What I believe and say is always right!!!!

Not really, I live for the here and now, 

I do have one regret and that is I wasted 15 mins reading this thread


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## bigyin (Jan 25, 2015)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....*

Then

Then*has numerous meanings.

1. At that point in time

I wasn't ready then.

Will you be home at noon? I'll call you then.

2. Next, afterward

I went to the store, and then to the bank

Do your homework and then go to bed

3. In addition, also, on top of that

He told me he was leaving, and then that I owed him money

It cost $5,000, and then there's tax too

4. In that case, therefore (often with "if")

If you want to go, then you'll have to finish your homework.

I'm hungry!
Then you should eat.


----------



## slapheadmofo (Jun 9, 2006)

Procter said:


> That drop isn't particularly large, and the rock garden looks imposing but is really mostly flat. It reminds me of lower gypsy at Northstar.
> 
> But, still requires a lot of skill on the bikes that they're on. Besides the fact that they're on shorter suspension and often hardtails, what makes it particularly hard is doing it without your seat dropped.


Not fer nuthin, but it seems to me that I've seen endless average Joe riders ripping through much gnarlier stuff than anything in those videos for decades, on hardtails, no droppers, and believe it or not, 26" wheels (I thought 29ers were supposed to excel at smoothing out ruff stuff? How much more trouble would they be having without that advantage?)
I'm not saying there aren't some great bike handlers riding XC out there, but it sure seemed to me like most of those guys couldn't handle a bike very well at all.


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## IFallDown (Mar 2, 2014)

bigyin said:


> Then
> 
> Then*has numerous meanings.
> 
> ...


And then you have a d-bag!


----------



## bigyin (Jan 25, 2015)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....*

Well done.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

LMN said:


> I agree that a road racer is going to transfer to XC first and even an XC racer is more likely to transfer to road then Downhill. Fitness plays much more of roll in XC racing then DH racing (although most people grossly underestimate how fit you have to be to race DH at a high level). Plus road racing pays way more than DH.
> 
> I don't think you actually understand what technical skills are. Being technically skilled is related to the equipment you ride. Being able to descend fast on a downhill bike is completely different then being able to descend fast on an XC race bike. The style and technique is completely different. Someone who is very technically skilled on a DH bike maybe completely useless on an XC bike, or vise versa.
> 
> ...


So you're saying technical skills have little to do with the rider and more to do with the bike? Have you not seen the road bike party videos? You don't think Danny Hart can do more on a trail bike than anybody on this board? And I don't understand technical skills? Seriously?


----------



## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

There's more needless mudslinging in this thread than an Oregon cross race. In January.


----------



## LMN (Sep 8, 2007)

mountainbiker24 said:


> So you're saying technical skills have little to do with the rider and more to do with the bike? Have you not seen the road bike party videos? You don't think Danny Hart can do more on a trail bike than anybody on this board? And I don't understand technical skills? Seriously?


No, I am saying technical skills are bike specific. Calm down and think for a second.

The ability to ride a DH bike fast is highly specialized, same thing with an XC bike. If you are a student of the sport you should know this.

And of course Danny Hart can school anybody on this board on a trail bike. He can also school anybody on this board in an XC race.


----------



## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

LMN said:


> No, I am saying technical skills are bike specific. Calm down and think for a second.
> 
> The ability to ride a DH bike fast is highly specialized, same thing with an XC bike. If you are a student of the sport you should know this.
> 
> And of course Danny Hart can school anybody on this board on a trail bike. He can also school anybody on this board in an XC race.


Disagree. I can do a wheelie pretty good, which could regarded as a technical skill. My ability to ride a wheelie is not really hampered by the bike I ride, I just have to make adjustments in how I react and balance. The skill is deoendent on me and how I apply it, it does not go away bdcause of what bike I ride.

The fact that Danny Mac can get on a road bike and do incredible things exemplifies this. If skills were bike dependent, this would not be the case.


----------



## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

taint taco juice said:


> This confused fragile wanker with severe memory, riding experience and critical thinking skills is still going on about this?
> 
> Awesome!


He may have been confused about Tomac's history, but much of what he says really makes sense...


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

XC is the closest type of MTB to road riding in the same way that the west side highway is the closest street in Manhattan to California.


----------



## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Of course the guys riding 29er HTs with short travel forks and racing geo have more trouble doing tech rocky DH sections than someone on a 5" travel bike with slacker geo and a dropper. Duh. The bike does matter/help out even if you are a skilled rider. The point I am making is that we didn't used to have that technology advantage and still rode these sections and it was called "XC"...hardly road riding.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

taint taco juice said:


> This confused fragile wanker with severe memory, riding experience and critical thinking skills is still going on about this?
> 
> Awesome!


Wow. What exactly did I do to piss you off so much? Also, what does it mean to have "severe memory, riding experience and critical thinking skills"? Is that supposed to be insulting, or is that really as complimentary as it sounds?

People, pretend you are a road cyclist and have never ridden a mountain bike. What type of mountain bike would you buy and what type of race would you enter? Just think about it and answer honestly. In my mind, I'm buying a hardtail with a suspension fork to ride long distances on mellow trails until I learn how to apply and develop the skills necessary for more challenging terrain. You know, the type of bike you find in the xc lineup of most companies. I'm not saying cross-country riders don't have any skills. I am saying that road riding has more in common with an endurance event that is limited in technical riding requirements than other, generally more technically demanding events. Am I really wrong, here?


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

taint taco juice said:


> Absolutely nothing.
> 
> You are confusing me laughing at your cluelessness with me being pissed off.
> 
> ...


How about contributing something intelligent to this thread and tell me what exactly it is you disagree with, other than Tomac racing road and mountain bike simultaneously, which I was admittedly wrong about.

Edit: Actually, forget it. That's a lot to ask from a troll. I apologize for acknowledging your existence.


----------



## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

LMN said:


> No, I am saying technical skills are bike specific. Calm down and think for a second.
> 
> The ability to ride a DH bike fast is highly specialized, same thing with an XC bike. If you are a student of the sport you should know this.
> 
> And of course Danny Hart can school anybody on this board on a trail bike. He can also school anybody on this board in an XC race.


No, I doubt Danny Hart would school many expert xc racers, assuming there are some expert level xc guys posting here. Not bashing Danny Hart at all. Just Totally different training and fitness requirements. He would, however, look way more stylish bunny-hopping rock gardens and manualing whoops. If I was a student of the sport, I would recognize that many skills can be applied to any type of bike riding. A talented, skilled rider can ride any bike and adapt his/her skills to that type of riding. That's why old bmx riders often do well with mountain biking. The difference with cross-country and road racing is the required level of fitness and endurance, which they have in common.


----------



## Speed Goat (Dec 31, 2013)

mountainbiker24 said:


> People, pretend you are a road cyclist and have never ridden a mountain bike. What type of mountain bike would you buy and what type of race would you enter? Just think about it and answer honestly. In my mind, I'm buying a hardtail with a suspension fork to ride long distances on mellow trails until I learn how to apply and develop the skills necessary for more challenging terrain. You know, the type of bike you find in the xc lineup of most companies. I'm not saying cross-country riders don't have any skills. I am saying that road riding has more in common with an endurance event that is limited in technical riding requirements than other, generally more technically demanding events. Am I really wrong, here?


I don't know about most of you on this forum, but I started out on my BMX bike at the age of 4. I grew up looking for jumps, skidding out in the neighbors driveway and practicing wheelies down the street. I then discovered a mountain bike and hit the trails. Granted, a lot of my early mountain biking was riding in the same places I rode my BMX, but I did hit a lot of single track. I raced some but didn't get really going until I got into college. I raced mountain bikes for my university and the allure of road biking caught my attention. I knew to be successful at mountain, I needed the miles and discipline only a road bike could give me. It was different, intriguing and exciting. It opened up a whole new world of cycling. Next thing I know, I'm entering road races, crits and time trials for my college as well. Love it all. Got out of college and discovered this cyclo-cross deal. Riding your road bike on dirt and grass?? Count me in!! Then one day I see this Hans Rey guy...I want to learn (and break a bunch of bike parts) so I practice, practice and practice. Next thing I know I'm hopping up and down stairs on my rear wheel and doing track stands at stop lights on my road bike. Now, even more fun you can have on a bike!

What does my endless rambling mean? Just because I raced my road bike at one time in my life does not mean my pedigree started there. I truly am trying to be a student of the sport and love everything cycling related whether it be on a BMX, mountain, CX, road or trials bike. All of these types of riding made me better on a bicycle, regardless what kind of bicycle I might be on. To assume that a person starts "road" or "mountain" is forgetting that everyone started at one time on some POS banana seated cruiser with training wheels.


----------



## kapusta (Jan 17, 2004)

Most mountain bikers do not race.

Pissing back and forth over how much technical skills riders have/need (or don't have/need) for top level XC racing is pretty silly when most riders to not race.

Creating categories of riders based on racing is pretty silly when most riders to not race.

You know what most mountain bikers do? They ride up and then down on a wide variety of trails. And what companies are selling as "XC" or "trail" or AM" are all perfectly legit options for that, depending on what your strengths/weakness are, and whether you want to play to your strengths or weakness.

And here is another shocker: most road riders don't race, either. Despite what the mags would make you think, many do not even have HR monitors, ride in pace lines, do intervals, or wear kits that match their bikes. Many of these people mountain bike, and don't ride XC bikes or enter XC races.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Of course most cyclist don't race, but cross-country is generally considered a racing category, these days. It makes sense to compare the elite racers, since non-racers are generally trail riders. 

This whole thread is worthless. All I intended to do was say that MBA's comment was obvious to me, and I tried to use the simplest example to support my reasoning. I made one mistake about John Tomac, and apparently I got everybody's panties all bunched up. Whatever. Lesson learned. Never try to have an intelligent discussion on mtbr.com.


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## Gasp4Air (Jun 5, 2009)

My goodness, emotions do run high. Must be insufficient riding time due to snowy weather. All those irritability hormones need to be cleared away by some grunt induced endorphins.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Good point on the XC being considered a race category now more than a riding style/type as it was more in the '90s. I think what most folks do nowadays would be considered "trail" by MBA etc.

For me, I just "go riding" on my "bike" which can be a lightweight 29er HT, a road bike, or a cross bike. The "riding" I do can be on trails (somewhat technical), roads, fireroads/gravel, or whatever. I wear my "riding clothes" which are generally made of lycra b/c they are comfortable to me and I don't care what folks think of my outfit b/c its purpose-built; I usually wear the same thing when I ride my road bike or mountainbike. The point of most of my riding is fun, fitness, and stress-relief. I like to ride as fast/hard as I can most days and if that happens to be offroad on my mountainbike, it takes quite a bit of skill even when the trails here aren't full of gnar and I am on my 21 lb HT in my lycra. I like to race sometimes, mainly fun races that have a more carnival-like atmosphere. These would generally be called "XC" here in central VA b/c we don't have mountains but people show up on all sorts of bikes. Most XC races here are held on the exact same trails that we “ride” on. There is not much in common between my mountain and road bikes beyond two wheels. If someone was coming from road riding and wanted to try mountainbiking here, they would just ride the same trails that everyone does which again…to me…is “XC”. If they wanted to try more gravity-driven riding, they would have to drive a few hours and that isn’t feasible on a regular basis for most folks. Riding a 5-6” travel enduro-style bike here is really overkill for our XC trails but plenty of people do it and enjoy themselves.


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## Crankout (Jun 16, 2010)

zrm said:


> The ignorance is strong in this one.


How so? Courses are now flatter and less technical compared to the pure, early days of xc racing in the 90's.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road ridi...*



Crankout said:


> How so? Courses are now flatter and less technical compared to the pure, early days of xc racing in the 90's.


Not in my experience. Quite the opposite.

And I've raced in OR, WA, CA, ID, NY, IL, VA, NC, and SC.

Yes, there are some races that want to be "epic" that use a single lap format with long stretches of fire road connecting trails. Most races that I've done recently are attempting to mimic the World Cup format of more, smaller laps, and much more single track. More technical, too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Gasp4Air said:


> My goodness, emotions do run high. Must be insufficient riding time due to snowy weather. All those irritability hormones need to be cleared away by some grunt induced endorphins.


I can admit to needing more riding time! At least this is the " passion" forum.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

TiGeo said:


> The ones wrecking weren't going fast enough it appears. Rock gardens like are defiantly challenging on a HT w/skinnier tires..speed is your friend.


This vid focuses on the crashes, not the people how ace it. Many of the manufactured courses they use for WC have these man made rock gardens, drops, etc that seem to be more "point and shoot and hope for the best" type features. For these guys, injuries aren't a badge of honor to post on social media and boast to their brahs about, they're a threat to their livelihood.

As I understand it, most of the riders don't like them not because of any aversion to technical riding, but because they're totally artificial. Most of those guys (and gals) will tell you they want more naturally natural courses but TV dictates short, multiple loop courses with spectacular looking features that end up being more just a jumble of boulders than anything you'd usually encounter when out "trail" riding.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

Crankout said:


> How so? Courses are now flatter and less technical compared to the pure, early days of xc racing in the 90's.


That's a pretty blanket statement. XC race courses are widely different and encompass a lot of different kinds of terrain. Courses for pro series have gone to shorter lap configurations because that's where the infrastructure for TV, sponsor expos, and team equipment is and they're more spectator friendly. Some of those courses are fairly non technical, but do them at the speeds these guys (and gals) do them and the skill level to keep it between the trees when you're at 95% max effort for an hour or so goes up considerably. Some of the courses have very technical terrain, either man made or natural and they test a different set of abilities. Given the variety of courses, elite level XC racers who do not have an elite set of bike handling skills aren't going to be elite for very long no matter how big their motor is.

The same can be said of XC races on a regional or local level. They vary widely thus test a wide variety of skills sets and fitness types which IMO is a good thing.

Now if you think anything less than the Red Bull Rampage or huck and jib bike porn is "wussified" well, you're welcome to your opinion, but it's hard for me to believe it's one formed by hands on experience.


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

HPIguy said:


> Dude on the left looks super pissed LOL. What if I wear my lycra, while riding my fat bike, on perfectly dry trails during the summer? Does that make it less weird, or more weird?


In this case it's the bike, not the kit. :lol:


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## zrm (Oct 11, 2006)

When I go out for a ride, I grab my bike.


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## HPIguy (Sep 16, 2014)

zrm said:


> In this case it's the bike, not the kit. :lol:


I'm also slow, and suck at anything remotely tech, which just adds entertainment value for anyone that might happen to be watching. But, I'm having fun so who cares.


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## unabashedlypro (Nov 14, 2014)

I think a good way to categorize riding styles is by what the top level is doing XC=




DH=well..we all know

Freeride=you know. Jumping around in the air and ****

All Mountain=enduro world cup (or whatever)

Trail Riding=recreational riding.


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## L.t. (Jul 20, 2012)

Procter said:


> Wait a few months, they will say the exact opposite.
> 
> I'm convinced its written by bots now, substituting words and phrases arbitrarily.
> 
> The [insert bike name] is designed for [pick any of real, serious, dedicated, competitive] [trail, xc, all mountain, enduro] riders. It feels [fast, stable, steady] on [rocky, technical, smooth] climbs but still remains [playful, agile, stable] on [downhills, descents].


Not related to MTBing, but in all seriousness, there is software out there, on the internet, that WILL RIGHT ESSAYS for you... trust me, my college professor showed it to my class, and told us not to use it. He explained to us how it works, by scouring a number of preset databases for information relevant to it's assigned topic, then putting together an essay, perfect grammar, some subtle humor, and even what one might consider a personal "style" of writing. It's INSANE!!! Some nerdy programmers came up with this software back in the early 2000's, and it has been used to create articles that have been PUBLISHED IN SCHOLARLY JOURNALS!! Science, History, Philosophy, the list goes on... It's crazy.... And it's technically not plagiarizing or cheating because it's a tool, a piece of software, being used to compile original sources.


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## Minimaltread (Aug 25, 2013)

i am not sure using the top level as a measure is the best approach. they change their equipment constantly. so they can push it very hard

with all my winter reading, i do feel some people place XC as a category of trails i would be willing to ride a 10 speed on. 

i am new but ride an XC bike slightly under XCO type trails. when i hit a section that is more downhill i go slow. when i hit double black diamond sections i unweight or walk


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## pointerDixie214 (Feb 10, 2009)

L.t. said:


> Not related to MTBing, but in all seriousness, there is software out there, on the internet, that WILL RIGHT ESSAYS for you... .


Ah, but will it write them too?










Sorry, I could not help myself.

MBA sucks. Get DirtRag and read that when you can't just go ride.

WGAF what they call certain riding, etc? People just need to ride their bike. However they want. On whatever bike they want to own. Wearing whatever they want. Seriously IDGAF what they "call" it. I like to ride my bike on trails. Some of them are uphill, some downhill, some smooth, some rocky. I wear whatever clothes I have that are clean(ish) and will make me comfortable in whatever the weather is doing. You're riding a bike, it's not a fashion show and we don't need 23459238529345 names for the various riding styles.

OK, I feel better. I'll climb down off my soap box now in case anyone else needs to climb on it.


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## Procter (Feb 3, 2012)

L.t. said:


> Not related to MTBing, but in all seriousness, there is software out there, on the internet, that WILL RIGHT ESSAYS for you... trust me, my college professor showed it to my class, and told us not to use it. He explained to us how it works, by scouring a number of preset databases for information relevant to it's assigned topic, then putting together an essay, perfect grammar, some subtle humor, and even what one might consider a personal "style" of writing. It's INSANE!!! Some nerdy programmers came up with this software back in the early 2000's, and it has been used to create articles that have been PUBLISHED IN SCHOLARLY JOURNALS!! Science, History, Philosophy, the list goes on... It's crazy.... And it's technically not plagiarizing or cheating because it's a tool, a piece of software, being used to compile original sources.


Yup, right there with you man - and, WARNING - TANGENT - we're entering a brave new world where technology will automate many human tasks, and writing is no different. The immediate reaction is, 'that's cheating!' - but our worldview may need to shift somewhat. Our current education system was designed hundreds of years ago, and focuses on acquiring knowledge and being able to display that you both remember it and understand it, through writing, or through doing math problems, etc. While these cognitive developments are important, computers have obviated the need to remember most things - the virtual entirety of human knowledge is now in our pocket.

I think more importantly, we need to shift to an education system (and a societal values system) where its not so much about knowledge but about understanding complex concepts and using those to find creative solutions to challenging problems. If we were to apply this model to bike reviews, in the future I would expect that long written articles are replace with summaries of geometry, leverage ratios, suspension curves, and other technical details which take up a single page, and quantitative summaries of riding behavior rather than subjective statements .... and the reader is competent enough to translate this into a mental picture of the feel of the bike. Skis are sort of going in this direction: Each ski is sold by characteristics like sidecut, radius, rocker, and waist, which are often stated directly on the ski. There are other intangibles like tail stiffness but I imagine these may be ultimately quantified too. Boots are now sold by stiffness (110, 130, etc. printed directly on the boot in large numbers) where as years ago no such system existed.

Will writing be automated? Yes, but it will probably be obvious that it is not human generated because it will lack creative ideas. So writing will become somewhat obsolete except for the first-time explanation of new concepts, which, once learned, do not need to be read over and over.


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## Fleas (Jan 19, 2006)

Procter said:


> Yup, right there with you man - and, WARNING - TANGENT - we're entering a brave new world where technology will automate many human tasks, and writing is no different. The immediate reaction is, 'that's cheating!' - but our worldview may need to shift somewhat. Our current education system was designed hundreds of years ago, and focuses on acquiring knowledge and being able to display that you both remember it and understand it, through writing, or through doing math problems, etc. While these cognitive developments are important, computers have obviated the need to remember most things - the virtual entirety of human knowledge is now in our pocket.
> 
> I think more importantly, we need to shift to an education system (and a societal values system) where its not so much about knowledge but about understanding complex concepts and using those to find creative solutions to challenging problems. If we were to apply this model to bike reviews, in the future I would expect that long written articles are replace with summaries of geometry, leverage ratios, suspension curves, and other technical details which take up a single page, and quantitative summaries of riding behavior rather than subjective statements .... and the reader is competent enough to translate this into a mental picture of the feel of the bike. Skis are sort of going in this direction: Each ski is sold by characteristics like sidecut, radius, rocker, and waist, which are often stated directly on the ski. There are other intangibles like tail stiffness but I imagine these may be ultimately quantified too. Boots are now sold by stiffness (110, 130, etc. printed directly on the boot in large numbers) where as years ago no such system existed.
> 
> Will writing be automated? Yes, but it will probably be obvious that it is not human generated because it will lack creative ideas. So writing will become somewhat obsolete except for the first-time explanation of new concepts, which, once learned, do not need to be read over and over.


The only thing about this ^^^, as accurate as it likely may be, is that people already communicate very poorly. Pretty soon we'll have to point to pictures of our food to get served in a restaurant.

Anyhoo...

I really did read this entire thread - kind of as a sociology experiment or something. You people are messed up! 

I think the real disconnect between XC and anything else happened 2 ways:
1) The newer "XC" trails - those intended for common use that most people see (not so much racing) - are pretty watered down and buffed out. I'm pretty sure you could rollerskate at some of these flow trails.

2) Most of the new riders know that what they are doing is not "enduro", FR, or DH, without even knowing what those are. They just assume they are too difficult, or somehow inappropriate or dangerous with the bike that they own, esp. if they listen to all the marketing hype. This seriously limits the breadth of what XC is perceived to be, esp. when compared to what it used to be. (...and right there I'll just let the nostalgia start to trickle in)

Many of the early 90's XC loop courses had very low time penalties for poor bike handling because the technical sections were so short, even though many "XC" riders at the time were used to negotiating fall lines, ruts, and eroded areas. Roadies with little bike skill would show up and land on the podium. Fitness easily trumped skills. This is NOT XC racing today - at least not anything I've seen lately. The front of the pack is very fit, and if you don't have skills you are not at the front. This is probably where a lot of less-fit people move over to enduro. They still won't be in front, but they feel better about their chances.

So, all along, the "XC" riders from way back have been riding the same terrain and just changing bikes.
The new "XC" riders have no idea what they missed. MBA is probably not helping to bridge that gap.

-F


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## 245044 (Jun 8, 2004)

MBA...Enough said.


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## blizzardpapa (Jan 19, 2004)

I careless what MBA has to say these days.


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## mudforlunch (Aug 9, 2004)

When I raced XC, I was fit enough to regularly beat dudes in my class who weighed 50-60 pounds less than me. I'm built like a linebacker, not a Kenyan.


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## mudforlunch (Aug 9, 2004)

Sigh. apparently MTBR won't let you edit or delete posts today. That was in response to a quote from like 6 pages ago, that didn't show up in the post. Whatever. Delete it. Dumb thread. Over it.


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## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

XJaredX said:


> Dude, $20 gets you a Dirt Rag subscription, what's the matter with you?





> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to XJaredX again.


yep.


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## Gigantic (Aug 31, 2012)

:thumbsup:


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## Purulento (Aug 27, 2009)

It would be less embarassing for then if they replaced XC for XCM. Even then, if you watch the video, it is full gas from start to finish for almost, unlike road races...


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

Video: XC Champs at the Rotorua Bike Festival - Pinkbike


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Purulento said:


> It would be less embarassing for then if they replaced XC for XCM. Even then, if you watch the video, it is full gas from start to finish for almost, unlike road races...


Most road races are not like the Tour de France. Many races are full go for 50-100 miles.


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

Le Duke said:


> Video: XC Champs at the Rotorua Bike Festival - Pinkbike


One somewhat technical section on the entire course? I could pull up vids of Enduro races, downhill races, and many trails that make that course look like a dirt road with a 2 foot drop in it. Again, I'm not saying cross-country can't be technically challenging, but to say it is as challenging as other forms of mountain biking racing and many trails is ludicrous.


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road riding"....*

The guy who won shelled a bunch of EWS racers in an enduro in December in NZ.

Also worth noting: the video is 2min long. I didn't see the whole course, did you?

The PB comments were almost entirely positive, BTW.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

There was an EWS race in December?

I thought EWS ended in October, and Fabian Barel won that particular event....

Anton Cooper won A Enduro race in NZ, but it wasn't an EWS event. In fact, the last EWS event he raced, HE was the one who got shelled back to 32nd place. He a great xc racer, no doubt.

What did the OP have to do with racing anyhow?


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## Le Duke (Mar 23, 2009)

*MBA article tells me that riding XC is "as close as you can come to road ridi...*



jhazard said:


> There was an EWS race in December?
> 
> I thought EWS ended in October, and Fabian Barel won that particular event....
> 
> ...


I didn't say it was an EWS race. I said he shelled a bunch of EWS racers. Guys who race in the EWS. Words have meaning. Thanks for playing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jhazard (Aug 16, 2004)

Oh, you mean the same bunch of 31 that smoked him in the EWS final round, or the 30 that came after him? 

Which ones did you mean?

Is he your new posterboy for xc ridefs rhat ride fast over tech... what happened to Nino? 

It doesnt really matter. Some riders excel at many things, others excel at none. Either way, xc racing is still the closest genre of mtb to road. If there is something closer, name it. 

Why would a bunch of xc riders care what another group thinks about their "skillz" anyhow? I bet Anton & Nino couldnt give a rats behind...


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## mountainbiker24 (Feb 5, 2007)

jhazard said:


> Either way, xc racing is still the closest genre of mtb to road. If there is something closer, name it.


I'm waiting for an answer to this question my self. It just seems so obvious to me, but so many people are upset by somebody saying it.


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