# 16 inch wheel size geared mountain bike?



## MrScience101 (Jan 15, 2018)

Howdy hi ho! We live in the mountains and everything is either a pretty steep hill or a pretty steep decline. Not much in the way of flat land here on rocky top Tennessee. My boy is around 45 lbs, 7.5 yrs, but is really short. He just can’t mount the 20 inch mountain bikes yet. All the 16 inch ones I’ve seen only have one gear which kills him on the hills. Does anyone have any neat tricks on acquiring a 16 inch wheel size mountain bike with gears? Thanks ya’ll!


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

Even with single speed you can put on a bigger rear cog or smaller chainring to lower the gearing.

We went from 22x14 to 22x18 and it made a big difference in climbing and going over rough terrain without much impact on speed on level ground.

Dingle speed is an option I've seen some people try that looks interesting:
https://bikecarson.com/2012/03/12/surly-dingle-speed/


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

MrScience101 said:


> Howdy hi ho! We live in the mountains and everything is either a pretty steep hill or a pretty steep decline. Not much in the way of flat land here on rocky top Tennessee. My boy is around 45 lbs, but is really short. He just can't mount the 20 inch mountain bikes yet. All the 16 inch ones I've seen only have one gear which kills him on the hills. Does anyone have any neat tricks on acquiring a 16 inch wheel size mountain bike with gears? Thanks ya'll!


I'm not sure about gearing for kids. Maybe someone can comment on a possibility of throwing some gears on a Spawn Yoji 16" as it's Shimano compatible freewheel. Perhaps the new Prevelo 16" Hardtail could have gears added tho it's not cheap.

We live on a giant mountain here in PNW (where people climb and die all the time etc). That being said, I think these early years are special. What we've done is not focus on MTBing on trails but instead building critical skills to not just ride the trails but shred them and do it safely with good habits, not bad habits like the dreaded "sitting when it gets scarey". Those things can really hold you back. So weve done some trail riding with my 3 (now 4yro) who has been riding his 16 Yoji... My 6yro is clearing 15ft tables now at 20mph and going downhill so a bit different. But the way we got him there, was not initially a boat load of trail riding and climbing. It was lots of time on home ramps, drops, berms and made up rock gardens. ONLY EVER standing and pedaling. Lots of skate park and BMX park work on a BMX bike. The trails we do ride (which is still often) are more flat or slolam style and while my 4yr can climb a bit and does, we will push up the bigger steeper stuff on those days. It's a nice mix but none of it requires gearing at this point (I did put a smaller chainring on) . So skill Building prioritized over Up/down mtb riding.

After all that, once we moved to a 20" mtb we will start mtbing and he, like his brother, will have the critical skills (some) to survive without big crashes thus keeping Mom happy (and me too). Confidence is king at this age, a bad crash can set you back months.


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## RMCDan (Feb 28, 2008)

Expensive option: https://www.flowkidsbikes.com/product-page/flow-16-10-spd-bike

Cheap option: https://towwhee.com/


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

RMCDan said:


> Expensive option: https://www.flowkidsbikes.com/product-page/flow-16-10-spd-bike
> 
> Cheap option: https://towwhee.com/


Most Expensive Option: Wife...Shuttle

(I forgot about that Flow bike, those things are sweet man...lots of tech they developed over there for extending/reducing reach and stays etc...very cool).


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## MrScience101 (Jan 15, 2018)

I love this forum. Thank you so much for the replies and options. So much more to consider


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

MrScience101 said:


> I love this forum. Thank you so much for the replies and options. So much more to consider


How tall is your kid? Inseam? Not all of the kids bikes are same in regards to geo/standover etc. I didn't realize he was 7yro. Can he pedal already? Stand and pedal?


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## oren_hershco (Mar 11, 2006)

Try to get this:

https://www.bike24.de/1.php?content=8;product=295325;menu=1000,173,182,315;pgc[5476]=6856


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## CeUnit (Jul 9, 2014)

You could consider the 2 speed (2x1 transmission) mod I made on my 16" Spawn Banshee. It's been proven to be reliable, maintainable, very usable by two 4 year olds in mountain bike (hilly) environments. Several users on this forum have reported success with it. Good luck!

Review of the Spawn Cycles Banshee (16" wheeled bike) - Page 3- Mtbr.com


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## MrScience101 (Jan 15, 2018)

Thank you for all the replies. Just to finish up and follow up in case anyone else ever reads this, I ended up ordering a Woom 4. Here's the history and why.

My oldest graduated to a Jamis x.20 I picked up on craigslist for 75 dollars. He was 8 and rode it just fine. Thus in my ignorance I figured my six year almost seven year old could ride it too. I bought a second one off ebay for about 150 that was brand new. My mistake was that my six/seven year old couldn't ride it reliably. He kept dumping the bike and wiping out. He couldn't switch the gears or pull the brakes and the fork was just dead weight (not heavy enough to compress it). He just wasn't strong enough.

The Jamix x.20 weighs in at 25 pounds. The Woom 4 was 17 pounds. At first I really didn't want to get one, it looks like a silly street only bike, and has a weird name. I feel weird everytime I say, "Woom". However I couldn't find a lighter bike and they claimed it had feather light brakes and feather light shifting.

I saw on ebay a brand new one for $282 and decided to go ahead and get it. I am glad I did. When we fished putting it together my boy walked over and picked it up. He couldn't do that with the Jamis. He also could pull both brakes without a problem and shifting gears was a piece of cake for him. After our first ride, instead of crying and complaining like he usually did, he said he had fun and enjoyed it. Not sure I would ever want to take it on a really rooty or rocky trail, but I think it'll hold up to the dirt/gravel ones just fine.

Quite frankly I am amazed what an 8 pound difference makes. I am also amazed at the difference a solid fork vs spring fork makes. It is really weird because the oldest handles the Jamis just fine and loves it, while the youngest won't touch it. Weird.

This is what the Woom 4 looks like on amazon: Woom 4


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## svinyard (Aug 14, 2017)

MrScience101 said:


> Thank you for all the replies. Just to finish up and follow up in case anyone else ever reads this, I ended up ordering a Woom 4. Here's the history and why.
> 
> My oldest graduated to a Jamis x.20 I picked up on craigslist for 75 dollars. He was 8 and rode it just fine. Thus in my ignorance I figured my six year almost seven year old could ride it too. I bought a second one off ebay for about 150 that was brand new. My mistake was that my six/seven year old couldn't ride it reliably. He kept dumping the bike and wiping out. He couldn't switch the gears or pull the brakes and the fork was just dead weight (not heavy enough to compress it). He just wasn't strong enough.
> 
> ...


The biggest problem for just messing around on trails with that bike is the tires. It's real easy for a kid to washout a front tire, even on gravel. I helped a friend throw some Spawn tires on their Isla street bike (and these are street/neighborhood bikes) and it made a pretty big difference. Tire clearance wasn't all that bad actually either. She was about to ditch the bike and rebuy something fit more for single track etc but the kid was almost grown out of it. 50-60$ in tires solved the problem and the kid is way more confident on the trail too. Worth a look into.


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## MrScience101 (Jan 15, 2018)

Yeah the tires on it leave a bit to be desired for trail riding. That's a great idea to put better ones on there.


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## masont (Nov 10, 2010)

svinyard said:


> Most Expensive Option: Wife...Shuttle
> 
> (I forgot about that Flow bike, those things are sweet man...lots of tech they developed over there for extending/reducing reach and stays etc...very cool).


I've got a Flow landing on Tuesday for my grom, and I'm in Issaquah. You said PNW, if you're in the Seattle area I'm happy to show you this one and let yours check it out.

It's expensive but it's convertible, and it's not too much more than buying a 16'' and then a 20'', and it's way better than those bikes. At least that's how I justified it to myself.


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## oren_hershco (Mar 11, 2006)

MrScience101 said:


> After our first ride, instead of crying and complaining like he usually did, he said he had fun and enjoyed it. [/URL]


For kids bikes, the most important factors are:

1. Sizing
2. Weight
3. Ergonomics (ease of operation, levers to fit small hands etc.)
4. Low rolling resistance (the right tires, the right gearing)

I'm still amazed at how much the big bicycle brands miss in almost all the factors above.

OK, so weight is PARTIALLY a function of cost. But why put a stupid heavy "suspension" fork on a small kids bike?

Why do the big brands still produce "20 bikes with 36T chainring? What's the point? They could have installed a 32T or 28T for the same price, and the gearing will make a lot more sense.

You made a good decision by selecting a bike from a kid-specific brand.


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## SPGremlin (Sep 24, 2019)

Bumping up an old thread.

So I went ahead and converted Woom 3 bike into 3-speeds with an internal hub (Shimano Nexus). So far it works great. And yes, 4yo kid who just started pedaling this summer learned to control his gears quickly (partially by himself, in parts with parental advice).

With 16T sprocket (vs 14T that came stock with Woom), gear ratios in comparison to stock Woom are 0.64, 0.88 and 1.19; This was a life-changer for going uphill. 
*
Update after few months of use:* we changed it further to a 14T sprocket (had to purchase one by Sturmey Archer 3-splined mount, and replace the chain to single-speed) to stick to gear rations of 0.77;1.0; 1.33 (in comparison to stock Woom gear); With improved skill, quite steep uphiis are doable - and now high-speed pedalling is so more efficient;

Bike weight increase is +0.98kg (+2.16lbs) - it is still quite lightweight, considering how lightweight is the original Woom (5.6kg only). So the total weight should now be about 6.6kg. I did not weight the bike myself - only the difference between the wheel removed vs new wheel + components installed (+ bike weight from official specification)

After reading a review of another kids bike that has stock gears, I decided not to install GripShifter and not to interfere with grip handles brake levers reach. Also, it could have been problematic to have 22.2mm grip shifter on a 19mm handlebar. Also, rotating Shimano grip shifter to 3rd requires more grip strength that my kid had (we tried one on the adult bike at the LBS).

Instead, I got an old-stock thumb shifter from Sachs (SRAM) Torpedo off Ebay. There was no guarantee that it will work (internal hubs and shifters are not normally compatible between brands), but in fact, it works OK after some fitting together and tuning (more on that later).

The shifter lever is easy to operate, and easy reach for switches between Middle->High->Middle->Low. It requires some coordination (mostly letting a hand off the grip to reach the lever) to switch from Low to Middle - but it is still doable without stopping with some training. Note, the numbers on the shifter are inverted (because it was from a different hub model), so we glued some number stickers to re-lable gear positions proper [not shown on the photos - was done later]


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## SPGremlin (Sep 24, 2019)

Few more details about this conversion.

Components:
* Pre-owned Woom 3 2017 (120mm rear triangle spread) 
* Shimano Nexus SG-3C41 28h (coaster brake model) with brake shoes removed which made it effectively a freewheel
* 28h rims (Shining MT-96 16" 28h)
* Sachs Torpedo 3S shifter (new old stock - from eBay, $15)
* New thinner gear cable and cable housing from LBS (the one which came with the hub was not OK).
** [later upgrade] *SturmeyArcher 14T rear sprocket (3-splined) and a single-speed chain

A key issue was finding a bike with sufficient rear triangle spread (O.L.D.) to accommodate a geared hub. Shimano Nexus hubs are 120mm.

The only narrower hub is Sturmey Archer S-RF3 28h (at 108mm) - but it is more expensive, harder to get, and requires much bigger effort on a shifter (my 4yo can not rotate its grip shifter to downshift).

I asked the question to many bike manufacturers and this is what I got on O.L.D sizes - *as of Fall 2019*

Woom 3 (<=2017): 120mm (*this is what I got*)
Frog 48: 120mm
Commencal Ramones 16: 115mm (per their website)
Cleary Hedgehog: 112mm
Woom 3 (late 2018 - early 2019??): 110mm - measured
Prevelo Alpha Two and Zulu Two: 110mm
Spawn Yoji 16: 110mm
Woom 3 (currently sold, new): 100mm - per Woom USA response
Priority Start 16: 120mm, but need to get rid of the belt and this is not feasible as cranks and front sprocket are completely custom
Early Rider Belter 16 [as-of-2019]: 118mm, possible to get rid of the belt with their proprietory front sprocket from a 20" bike (they said it is compatible) - overall a very costly option and too much hassle...
Vitus 16": unknown - could not get information

Aluminum frames can not be cold set to a significantly higher dimension, but can probably be moved a little bit within their natural elastic flex... On my Woom, I can flex it with hands (no tools) +-3-5mm of its original size but certainly not comfortable to do more than that. I don't have to - just wanted to experiment to see if the same conversion can be done with other bikes.

On Torpedo Shifter compatibility with Nexus hub, I posted details here:
https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/...3-hub-with-torpedo-3-gear-shifter/64369#64369

The hub came to me with a 16T sprocket that initially I kept for now to have lower gearing and better uphill climbing. This was later replaced to SturmeyArcher's 14T sprocket, and with the rider's skills progress, the low gear is now more than enough for all reasonable climbs (what as an adult I'm climbing on 1-2 on a 2x10 MTB)

An unsolved possible problem remains that Shimano Bell Crank is not protected, and likely to be damaged in a fall. I don't know if a kind of a shifter protection for an IGH bell crank exists... could not find one. Also, the axle may not be long enough to accommodate one. 2mm would go, but not anything longer than that.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

I didn't read this thread (busy parent) but the ground clearance with regular derailleurs would be a problem at 16". My son's Trailcraft has a short cage and it's still chewed up after not all that much riding...

EDIT: I just towed him up hills. Carabiner attached to a retractable dog leash and my seat. Exercise band at the end of the dog leash looped around the head tube. cost me $25 and I still use it when he starts to b**** and moan too much on his geared 20".


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## TimTucker (Nov 9, 2011)

The TL/DR summary of the options from the thread (and others like it):


*Gears in back*
Derailleur (usually not enough clearance)
Internal geared hub with shifting (heavy)
SRAM Automatix (automatic shifting / still heavy / discontinued)

*Gears in front & back*
Dinglespeed: 2-3 combinations of chain ring & rear cog with equal total numbers of teeth (requires manually moving the chain to switch gears)

*Gears in front*
Chain tensioner in back, 2-3 chainrings up front (can be setup to move manually or with a front derailleur & shifter)

*No gears*
Wait for 20"
Tow them (homemade options or TowWhee)


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

Thanks, great summary.

Also I've been taking multiple kids riding since age 2 and they don't really seem to have leg strength or endurance (physical or mental) to really do much uphill until they are about ready for a 20" bike anyway. Somewhere between 5-6 y.o. they get there, by then it's easier to deal with slight fit issues on a 20" than to noodle with gearing a 16". Even from 5.5 to 6 y.o. the difference in strength and endurance has been huge.


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## SPGremlin (Sep 24, 2019)

(removed)


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## SPGremlin (Sep 24, 2019)

TimTucker said:


> The TL/DR summary of the options from the thread (and others like it):
> 
> 
> *Gears in back*
> ...


Great summary! I don't think weight is the biggest drawback of an internally geared setup. 1kg is a lot, but the weight difference between different bike models is even bigger anyway. Shifter controls ergonomics is arguably a more important challenge (interference with brake reachability for small hands, effort required to actuate grip shifter in the pull direction, thumb shifters availability and compatibility with the hub, reach required to operate thumb shifter where it is located, etc.).


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## SPGremlin (Sep 24, 2019)

Quick update after ~1.5 months of use of our now-geared 16" Woom bike

* The setup works great. Lever reach is not too bad and the kid (4yr 4mo old) learned to operate it sufficiently well. Overall, I'm happy that we went with an unorthodox build of Sachs shifter with Shimano hub - I don't think any other solution would work. He tried Shimano's stock grip shifter a couple of times since then (on adult bikes) and still can't rotate it 2 to 3.

* Learning the skill of choosing the right gear and switching when needed is coming with experience and the progress in that is obvious. When downshift is needed, most of the time he does it by himself. Upshift is sometimes by himself, sometimes he forgets and needs a piece of advice.

* Overall we are very happy with 3 gears on this bike. It is worth the cost and it made a ton of difference. Skills development (standing and pedaling) also makes a difference, but both are best in combination. We can now cover trails like this one https://www.alltrails.com/explore/r...op-trail-2aa5d125-bae5-4859-b682-f00640df0fce without dismounting (except to drink/to pee/to rest on a playground).

Low gear: 



Middle and High gears:


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## SPGremlin (Sep 24, 2019)

Looking through this forum (and some others), I see that many folks here praise Commencal Ramones 16 as a "proper" starting MTB for young riders, while Woom is disregarded as a "neighborhood" bike.

I realized that with its specs (_hub compatibility - 115mm_), Commencal bike can also be upgraded similarly as I described here. Shimano Nexus hub (3R40 / 3C41) O.L.D. is 120mm, but the way this hub is designed, its drive-side locknut is not really needed - the inner cone nut alone should be sufficient (this is absolutely not the case though for the left side - two thin locknuts are critical there). Right side cone nut (square shaped) is forcefully screwed until the end of the axle thread and does not regulate any bearing tension. When tightened sufficiently (and especially under additional pressure from the dropouts), there is absolutely nowhere for the square cone nut to go. By removing that not-really-needed locknut, we can reduce the overall O.L.D. of the hub to 117mm. The remaining 2mm should be easily given by the natural elastic flex of the Commencal's dropouts (not cold setting, obviously).

While Commencal is much heavier (7.4 kg vs 5.4 for Woom), it has much wider tires (2.25" vs 1.5"), more aggressive geometry (flat handlebar). And the biggest difference - one can buy a new bike ($340 with shipping), while one can't just buy a new Woom for an IGH conversion - only an older pre-owned 2017-2018 bike would work, and those are hard to snatch. Also, it seems like Commencal comes with 28hole rims - so an IGH wheel can be built using its stock rims.

If we were starting from scratch, and the kid was bigger to be comfortable with Commencal's 20.5" minimum seat height (vs 19.5 on a Woom - that was the highest we could go), I'd consider doing this conversion with Commencal rather than with Woom.

Since we were lucky to find that old Woom and do the upgrade, we will stick with it until time comes for a 20" upgrade.


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## fitek (Nov 25, 2014)

I know a family that has almost outgrown the Woom if anyone else needs one.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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