# Best GPS for navigation



## dboneslick (Apr 28, 2013)

I am in search of a GPS that will provide real time navigation with trail system overlays. I have no cell phone coverage on many rides so apps are out. I know there are limitations concerning trail navigation and my research has provided mixed results for my intended purpose. I'm looking for end-user opinions. 

My goal is to upload trail maps to the device and plan routes. I want to be able to see my real-time position on the trails overlays as I move along the route. I'm looking for something that closely resembles the current street navigation units. Is this possible with any of the current outdoor GPS products? If so, which one do you think is the best for this purpose? 

Thanks for the help.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

dboneslick said:


> My goal is to upload trail maps to the device and plan routes. I want to be able to see my real-time position on the trails overlays as I move along the route.


No problem. Pick up a true mapping GPS that lets you load maps. Garmins are known to work with the huge database of maps and trail data available at www.gpsfiledepot.com There's a lot of existing trail data available there. More than anywhere else I've seen.



dboneslick said:


> I'm looking for something that closely resembles the current street navigation units. Is this possible with any of the current outdoor GPS products? If so, which one do you think is the best for this purpose?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


This won't work out the way you want. The big kicker is the routability of the trails. Sure, you can get trail data as overlays, but the VAST majority of the data is not routable. Big reason for that is that the software used to make it routable is damned expensive (several hundred bucks expensive). There are seriously diminishing returns for that kind of investment. Trails that are routable the way roads are on your phone or a car GPS really don't work out quite right for a mtb. Even for a road bike, that sort of navigation has its limitations. You need some serious avoidances for road bike use to get it to navigate you on roads that are halfway decent. On a mtb, it's much the same. The map data doesn't tell you which trails are better which direction. The GPS software simply isn't capable of letting you select a route with max or minimum climbing, or to maximize descending, or to avoid certain grades, or minimize fire roads, or any of that. About the best that kind of routability will get you is the shortest distance from A to B. And that really isn't all that useful on a mtb trail.

What does work reasonably well for mtb purposes is to build planned routes with some other software (web interfaces do this really nice and "snap" to roads and trails to minimize clicking to match the shape) and then load that route into your GPS for it to direct you where to go. You can still show the trail overlay on the basemap, and you'll be able to see where any offshoots go in case you want to deviate from your planned route. This sort of navigation doesn't necessarily need detailed mapping or routing capability, but having a basemap of some sort displayed can give you reference information like hills (if you have topos), road/creek crossings, etc. I find the Edge 520 mostly adequate for this kind of use. It can display maps (but there's no routing or map query capability on the GPS) with my planned route overlaid on it. Only thing I wish it did better was to have a little more memory so I didn't have to load new maps every time I went somewhere new.

If you want to load a huge hunk of maps and not worry about it, it's better to get one of the full mapping models, which gets you a bigger screen to see mo' map at once.

FWIW, most phone apps WILL work just fine when you're out of cell coverage. Most have some sort of capability to cache maps over a wifi connection so you can even use a phone that has no cell data service simply as a GPS if you like the interface better. You can put it in airplane mode to save battery life. They are pretty massive and tend to require that you buy an extra case for protection. They don't tend to mount to the bars well. I also find capacitive touchscreens to go apeshit when I drip sweat on them, so there's that, too. But you are still highly unlikely to find routable trails on a phone app. At best, you'll find more or less the same overlays you can put into a Garmin.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

I'm not sure how well the Trailforks website has the trails mapped in your area, but I've found it to work pretty well for downloading trails to my Garmin 510. By using that website's "Ride Planner" feature, you can build a ride by clicking trails on the map in the sequence you want to ride them. The website stitches your choices together into a ride and you can then export that planned ride as a .gpx file. Upload that file to the Garmin and it builds a course from it. You could then have the Garmin navigate you along that course, but as Harold suggested it doesn't work as well as one would hope as far as guidance. What I find very helpful is to just have that course displayed on the Garmin and then I glance down as needed to make sure my current position is on the course. I would think any GPS that has at least a breadcrumb map functionality and the ability to upload courses/routes would be able to be used the same way.

If you're a premium member on Strava, you can also select favorite segments which can be uploaded to your compatible Garmin Edge and then shown on your device's map and used in a similar fashion.


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## Joe Handlebar (Apr 12, 2016)

I have the MTB Project app on my phone. You can download entire areas. I've only had to use it once, but it worked like a charm. No cell service, but since GPS tracking was on, it told me exactly where I was. I've never used it for real time, but believe it would work quite well.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

ewarnerusa said:


> I'm not sure how well the Trailforks website has the trails mapped in your area, but I've found it to work pretty well for downloading trails to my Garmin 510. By using that website's "Ride Planner" feature, you can build a ride by clicking trails on the map in the sequence you want to ride them. The website stitches your choices together into a ride and you can then export that planned ride as a .gpx file. Upload that file to the Garmin and it builds a course from it. You could then have the Garmin navigate you along that course, but as Harold suggested it doesn't work as well as one would hope as far as guidance. What I find very helpful is to just have that course displayed on the Garmin and then I glance down as needed to make sure my current position is on the course. I would think any GPS that has at least a breadcrumb map functionality and the ability to upload courses/routes would be able to be used the same way.
> 
> If you're a premium member on Strava, you can also select favorite segments which can be uploaded to your compatible Garmin Edge and then shown on your device's map and used in a similar fashion.


I've found Trailforks' coverage to be far more spotty than MTBProject's in my travels. In my area, TF has next to nothing, and most of what they do have, they skimmed off of MTBProject. There's one park on TF where the data was actually uploaded by the same guy who uploaded data to MTBP, and I think that might be the only one.

In general, I find that TF's lack of quality control can be a problem. More than once, I've been at a confusing intersection, and the trails uploaded to TF have different names than what may be signed on the ground or different from the verbal directions I was given at the local shop or whatever. The app isn't buggy the way MTBP is, but crappy data is crappy data.

That planner feature is clever, though. That's sortof what I do with RideWithGPS, except RWGPS allows me to put turn notifications into the file it creates if I want. Dunno if TF does that. RWGPS also allows me to pretty seamlessly transition from mtb trails to roads to greenways, as long as they're on the map or free draw a route through a parking lot or on a trail that appears on satellite imagery, but not on the other maps (RWGPS uses lets you switch between Google Maps, OSM Cycle Map, and satellite imagery), which is useful. I find trail coverage there between those different map sources to be pretty good.



Joe Handlebar said:


> I have the MTB Project app on my phone. You can download entire areas. I've only had to use it once, but it worked like a charm. No cell service, but since GPS tracking was on, it told me exactly where I was. I've never used it for real time, but believe it would work quite well.


I have used MTBProject the most, and I have to say that the app can be buggy. As in, there are times where I'm consulting the map, and the trails just disappear. I have to close it and restart it before they show up again. It's a real PITA when it does that.

I really prefer a paper map when I'm out in the woods on my mtb. I tried going all digital with my navigation for a number of years, but things like battery life, data availability, planning, and all that stuff just started irritating the hell out of me. I've come to the point where I'll use it if it's available, but I will spend $15 on a good map if one is available (even if there's good digital mapping available for the area). My favorite is actually not even paper. At Over the Edge in Hurricane, UT, they've got the local trail maps printed on microfiber cloth, so you can use it to wipe dust off your glasses, sweat off your brow, or whatever. You can wad it up in your pocket and it doesn't destroy the map. Very cool. I have it on the wall above my monitor right now.


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## dboneslick (Apr 28, 2013)

Thanks for the information Harold. Your responses are always informative, reliable, and helpful. You really are "The GPS Geek"! I have decided to go with a Garmin Edge 820. 
I have readjusted my expectations after reading your informative responses. I will be happy uploading routes to the GPS and following along as I ride. I have let go of the seamless turn by turn expectation. I just want to follow a route without stopping at every intersection to fumble with a map or written instructions. I will still carry a paper map as a backup to the GPS when I'm in unfamiliar territory. 
I appreciate all of the suggestions for route planning websites and services. I have explored MTB project and have a basic Strava account. I will look into the other suggestions mentioned in this thread as well. Keep the great suggestions coming!


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## dboneslick (Apr 28, 2013)

I have the Garmin 820 now. I have explored MTB project, Strava and Trailforks. 
MTBR seems to be the best for downloading a GPX file for a route. I still can't figure out how to download an entire trail system and display the trails as an overlay. I can only download featured rides or single trails. I uploaded all of the trails in a 90 mile network to the Garmin. I can only select and display one trail at a time on the Garmin since it saves each one as a route. My next attempt was to place all of the trails for the system in one folder before uploading it to the new files folder of my Garmin. I figured that this folder would automatically open all of the trails. I couldn't display anything that way.
Is there any way to download an entire trail network and upload it to the Garmin so I can have the map on the screen as I ride? 
I know I can spend time building a route and uploading it to the Garmin. That is something I plan to do for ride navigation. I still want the entire trail system available on the device so I can take offshoots and find my way back if I get lost. I'm basically looking for a trail map of an entire network that I can display as an overlay on the Garmin the way the roads are displayed on street maps.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

With my 510, you can go into the map display for each course and set it to always on. Then it will always show up on your basemap. Could you do that with each of the courses corresponding to the trails?


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## dboneslick (Apr 28, 2013)

ewarnerusa said:


> With my 510, you can go into the map display for each course and set it to always on. Then it will always show up on your basemap. Could you do that with each of the courses corresponding to the trails?


You may be on to something. I will try that workaround; however, I'm hoping there is a more straightforward way to download a map for an entire trail network or region. 
In this case, I will have to download about 50 trails, copy them to the Garmin new files folder. Then I will have 50 routes on my Garmin (all single trails) and select always on for each one. It seems like a convoluted way to have a trail map for a small network of trails.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

ewarnerusa said:


> With my 510, you can go into the map display for each course and set it to always on. Then it will always show up on your basemap. Could you do that with each of the courses corresponding to the trails?


On MTBP, the .gpx downloads are not actually "courses". I suppose you could convert them all to courses, but that's a REALLY clumsy way of pulling this off.



dboneslick said:


> I'm hoping there is a more straightforward way to download a map for an entire trail network or region.


There is one. You just won't be uploading .gpx files to your GPS. Your device uses those file types for routing, but they're not good for map display, the way Garmin handles them. Garmin has always handled .gpx files in this manner. They have an extremely strict definition of .gpx file types. For example, you cannot load a .gpx file onto your GPS that contains a network of trails. You can try...but the GPS will split every segment into a separate file. And even though your computer can handle viewing and working with a .gpx file that contains both track data and waypoint data, your Garmin cannot. Again, separate .gpx files for those sorts of things.

Now, you CAN get a whole trail network loaded onto the Garmin as a map overlay. You just have to convert your data from .gpx into the format Garmin uses for basemaps (.img). There are files you can download that already contain this data, so you don't have to do it yourself. It may not cover everything for your area, though. I use this one, for example:

https://www.gpsfiledepot.com/maps/view/53

For where I ride, it's generally got >90% of the trails. Some of the newest stuff isn't on there yet, but it does periodically get updated.

Which gets me to your next option. A little program called gpx2img. Say, for example, you want to ride a trail system you find on mtbproject, but not on the MyTrails database. You want that mtbproject data on your Garmin. So you download the .gpx files for all of the trail segments in the network. With gpx2img (free version has a file number limit, but paid does not), you load those .gpx files, convert them to the format your Garmin uses for basemap data, and sends that map to Garmin Basecamp or Mapsource (whichever you have installed). From there, you can send that map to your Garmin as an overlay on top of the map it already has, or along with more detailed topo maps. Yes, this might take a little more effort than using something that's already made. But with it, you can make your own map from data you've recorded that might be more up-to-date than what you're finding elsewhere.

Making Transparent Maps for your Garmin GPS with GPX2IMG | The GPS Geek

I did something similar when I lived in Pittsburgh, PA. I was new to town, and the nearest park with riding had a very confusing and complicated network of trails. There were no maps whatsoever of the trails. No MTBProject or Trailforks. There were some sources like Garmin Connect, but I don't remember Strava being a thing back then. So what I did was go ride and explore. I'd then collect my ride files, and I started making a map on my own. That was a HUGE help for me to learn the trails there.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

When I put a gpx file in the new files folder on the edge, it automatically makes a course from it.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

ewarnerusa said:


> When I put a gpx file in the new files folder on the edge, it automatically makes a course from it.


it's still a clumsy way of doing it.

Plus, I wouldn't count on the Edge 820 working the same way.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

it sounded to me like they are already on the Garmin. So all he would have to do is change the map display to always on and then they will all show up on his basemap.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

ewarnerusa said:


> it sounded to me like they are already on the Garmin. So all he would have to do is change the map display to always on and then they will all show up on his basemap.


It's still clumsy. It's a lot more elegant for the trails to be an actual basemap layer. And depending on the trail system and where it is, it might already be available as a single download, so can avoid the hassle of making the layer out of a bunch of downloads from mtbproject.

That way, when you actually want to navigate a course, you don't have to find that course by digging through a bunch of courses that are really just segments of trail you're displaying on the map.

For your 510, which doesn't offer true mapping, what you're doing is going to be your best option. But dboneslick has an Edge 820 that offers better options.


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## Coach529 (Mar 3, 2006)

Looking into this same thing since I am moving to a new area.

I was planning on building routes on Strava and downloading them to my Garmin 510. If that does not work, I will upgrade to the 820.

Any feedback?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

Coach529 said:


> Looking into this same thing since I am moving to a new area.
> 
> I was planning on building routes on Strava and downloading them to my Garmin 510. If that does not work, I will upgrade to the 820.
> 
> Any feedback?


I honestly like Ride With GPS better for that functionality. It will work on the 510, but you may not like how it works. If the data you're basing your route on is not that accurate, or your GPS is suffering from reduced accuracy at the moment, then it'll give you a lot of off course warnings. It's a function that works great on roads, where your planned route tends to be super close to what you find for road data online.

When I'm riding a new trail system, I'm generally better off using some kind of map (paper is preferred, but I like having a basemap on my gps for quick visual reference purposes, but I'll also pull out my phone for mtbproject or trailforks). When on the trails, I don't like for my gps to be telling me where to go. I often make snap decisions when I'm on a ride based on how I'm feeling, or based on what looks interesting that day. Having to deal with my gps flipping out because I'm not going where it thinks I should be going is distracting.

As long as my gps records where I've been, and shows me where I am, I'm happy. The Edge 520 has enough mapping capability to satisfy me in that regard.


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## Coach529 (Mar 3, 2006)

Harold said:


> I honestly like Ride With GPS better for that functionality. It will work on the 510, but you may not like how it works. If the data you're basing your route on is not that accurate, or your GPS is suffering from reduced accuracy at the moment, then it'll give you a lot of off course warnings. It's a function that works great on roads, where your planned route tends to be super close to what you find for road data online.
> 
> When I'm riding a new trail system, I'm generally better off using some kind of map (paper is preferred, but I like having a basemap on my gps for quick visual reference purposes, but I'll also pull out my phone for mtbproject or trailforks). When on the trails, I don't like for my gps to be telling me where to go. I often make snap decisions when I'm on a ride based on how I'm feeling, or based on what looks interesting that day. Having to deal with my gps flipping out because I'm not going where it thinks I should be going is distracting.
> 
> As long as my gps records where I've been, and shows me where I am, I'm happy. The Edge 520 has enough mapping capability to satisfy me in that regard.


Thanks for the input.

I would be using it for all kinds of cycling....but more so for long gravel rides or on forest service roads on a fatbike. Places were you would would have options, but want to avoid getting the map out, or phone out to look where they lead.


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## FitmanNJ (May 23, 2011)

Harold said:


> Which gets me to your next option. A little program called gpx2img. Say, for example, you want to ride a trail system you find on mtbproject, but not on the MyTrails database. You want that mtbproject data on your Garmin. So you download the .gpx files for all of the trail segments in the network. With gpx2img (free version has a file number limit, but paid does not), you load those .gpx files, convert them to the format your Garmin uses for basemap data, and sends that map to Garmin Basecamp or Mapsource (whichever you have installed). From there, you can send that map to your Garmin as an overlay on top of the map it already has, or along with more detailed topo maps. Yes, this might take a little more effort than using something that's already made. But with it, you can make your own map from data you've recorded that might be more up-to-date than what you're finding elsewhere.
> 
> Making Transparent Maps for your Garmin GPS with GPX2IMG | The GPS Geek


Hi, Harold. The paragraph from your post above seems to describe what I'd like to do with a Garmin eTrex Touch 35 that I have on order. I tried clicking the link you're provided and got the following error message:

Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /blog/ on this server.

Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Apache Server at thegpsgeek.com Port 80

I tried just going to thegpsgeek.com (home page) and got the same error. Is there something more that I should be doing? Do you think something may be amiss at your blog site? Thanks for all of your useful comments.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

FitmanNJ said:


> Hi, Harold. The paragraph from your post above seems to describe what I'd like to do with a Garmin eTrex Touch 35 that I have on order. I tried clicking the link you're provided and got the following error message:
> 
> Forbidden
> 
> ...


I had some problems the other day with my site. Guess they didn't all get fixed. I am on my way out of town for the weekend so you'll have to wait.


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## FitmanNJ (May 23, 2011)

Harold -- Much appreciated. Thanks.


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

FitmanNJ said:


> Harold -- Much appreciated. Thanks.


Finally had the time to sit down and address this problem, which turned out to be multiple problems. Some of them were pretty weird. Pretty much had to reinstall my website, but it's all good now, and the link should take you to the article about the transparent maps.

Making Transparent Maps for your Garmin GPS with GPX2IMG | The GPS Geek

Note that getting the map files onto the Edge 520 is particular to that device. Note instructions here: 
http://forums.mtbr.com/gps-hrm-bike-computer/garmin-edge-520-a-980371-post12188092.html#post12188092
and my followup notes here:
Garmin Edge 520 - Page 9- Mtbr.com


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## FitmanNJ (May 23, 2011)

Harold said:


> Finally had the time to sit down and address this problem, which turned out to be multiple problems. Some of them were pretty weird. Pretty much had to reinstall my website, but it's all good now, and the link should take you to the article about the transparent maps.
> 
> Making Transparent Maps for your Garmin GPS with GPX2IMG | The GPS Geek
> 
> ...


That's a good tutorial. Thanks.


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## thecanoe (Jan 30, 2007)

Another vote for RWGPS. my iPhone screen is bigger that a Garmin. I can design a route, search and copy other riders routes and it works in airplane mode to save your battery. Plus OSM cycle option shows trail names. $50 a year for premium membership is well worth it. 
Here's what the screen looks like.









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

I don't use the RWGPS app. I only use the web interface to create routes that I transfer to the Garmin.

I was in Sedona last week...a place entirely new to me. I based all my rides off of physical maps. Some people I was riding with pulled out phone apps. But they pretty much just used them for route recommendations. On one ride, one guy pulled out MTBProject and we tweaked our planned route to include a spot with good views based off of that. But on the trail I'm mostly happier with physical maps. Easier on-the-fly navigation and route changing, which is how I like to roll.

I had pre-loaded topo maps for the area into my Edge 520, but I never used them. I just used the Garmin to record.

I gotta say I LOVE the maps on microfiber cloths that Over The Edge sells. I picked one up last year in Hurricane, UT, and I grabbed one for Sedona last week. They're pretty excellent.


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## stevehollx (Apr 6, 2010)

Anyone have an idea on copyright for GPX reuse when obtained from a site that makes the GPX freely available (through crowdsourcing of individuals' uploads)? Wondering if it is fair game to reshare in other forms (i.e. consolidated garmin IMG formats).

My basic understanding of copyright (if GPX is even considered a work of art) is that since it is presented in a new format and utility, that it would be fair game to redistribute?


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## Harold (Dec 23, 2003)

stevehollx said:


> Anyone have an idea on copyright for GPX reuse when obtained from a site that makes the GPX freely available (through crowdsourcing of individuals' uploads)? Wondering if it is fair game to reshare in other forms (i.e. consolidated garmin IMG formats).
> 
> My basic understanding of copyright (if GPX is even considered a work of art) is that since it is presented in a new format and utility, that it would be fair game to redistribute?


Check each site's copyright/creative commons policy. Why didn't you create a new thread for your new topic? You would get more attention.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


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