# Ultimate XC race Wheel??? Reynolds Tubular



## jtc1 (Apr 13, 2004)

Check out the new Reynolds Carbon Tubular MTB wheel. Appears to be light and stiff. With Tufo tape mounting is easier than Stan's.

http://www.reynoldscomposites.com/products_wheels_topot.html


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## KMan (Dec 30, 2003)

*Nice, but*

what tires are available for a MTB Tubular? in a minimal real 1.9-2.1 size?

KMan



jtc1 said:


> Check out the new Reynolds Carbon Tubular MTB wheel. Appears to be light and stiff. With Tufo tape mounting is easier than Stan's.
> 
> http://www.reynoldscomposites.com/products_wheels_topot.html


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## jtc1 (Apr 13, 2004)

*tires*

For sure Tufo XC2. Other TBD. Correct though, that is the one "limiter" to these wheels being the ticket for XC. Reynolds needs to partner with a tire manufacturer.


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## Tag1 (Mar 17, 2006)

jtc1 said:


> Check out the new Reynolds Carbon Tubular MTB wheel. Appears to be light and stiff. With Tufo tape mounting is easier than Stan's.
> 
> http://www.reynoldscomposites.com/products_wheels_topot.html


Wow. I wonder what those are going to run, $-wise...any idea?


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

It's not that light and the tubular tires must be pretty heavy. OK, so maybe the CF rims will absorb some shock but mounting tubulars is a pain, IMO. I'm missing the major advantages here. What happens when you flat out? Are you going to carry an additional entire tire along like when road riding


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## jtc1 (Apr 13, 2004)

*Many advantages*

The wheels are the lightest I have seen other than the lightest build of Stans (1341 Stans vs 1352 Reynolds). The tires are 450 grams or less. Tufo tape makes mounting easier than mounting a clincher on Stans. Flats are no different than running a tubless tire or a stans tire. Use sealant. Tufo provides sealant that ca nbe put in the tire as a preventative or use it to fix flats. With a tubular pinch flats are eliminated for obvious reasons. The round profile of tubular tires might be perfect for off road.... remains to be seen though


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

you can also get custom made dugast tubuilars.... 100 each tire


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## jtc1 (Apr 13, 2004)

*Not sure how to get Dugast MTB tires in USA*



bhsavery said:


> you can also get custom made dugast tubuilars.... 100 each tire


I have heard this is true - but after an hour of searching the web - I am unable to figure out how to actualy procure a Dugast mountain bike tire in the USA.


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

purely speculation here.... but what would be the rolling resistance/grip difference between this and a tubeless setup?


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## Ultra Magnus (Jan 13, 2004)

I just recently saw a product in a road oriented bike magazine for a tire inflation device similar to fix-a-flat for cars, but for tubular road tires. The only failure I can see that you can't fix wiht a tubular that you can fix on a clincher is in the case of a severly cut sidwall. All it takes is a dollar bill or some duct tape (I keep duct tape in my saddle bag and I have used it in the past) to cover the hole with a clincher long enought to get home. With a tubular you'd have to walk out. It all comes down to how sturdy they make the sidewalls.

BM


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## jtc1 (Apr 13, 2004)

*suprised there is not more interest*

in these new race wheels?? They are very light.


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## bhsavery (Aug 19, 2004)

its more of a problem with tires than the wheel. You have basically two choices of tubular mt bike tires. Those tufo tires or really expensive custom made dugasts. And then theres the question raised above of what happens when it fails.


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## markom (Jan 21, 2004)

bhsavery said:


> its more of a problem with tires than the wheel. You have basically two choices of tubular mt bike tires. Those tufo tires or really expensive custom made dugasts. And then theres the question raised above of what happens when it fails.


Bike 10/06 had pretty interesting tire test which included FRM tubelesskit, DT & Eclipse tubeless kits, Tufo C XC1 & XC2 and Dugast tires (+ UST and tubed reference tires).
There must be some other reasons than test data for running Dugasts and Tufos as only thing they were superior was puncture test (same result as UST tire) but considering that their weight, rolling resistance and force required (in Joule, "beschleunigung", my translation is probably not correct) were inferior to tubelesskits. Testers critisised tubelesskits for burping in tight corners though.

FRM system seems interesting, just a roll of special tape (no rubber strips at all), valves and some latex juice and price is 30% higher than DT/Eclipse. Prices were 99 Euro for Dugast pair and 139e/each for Tufo XC2 and 79e/each for Tufo C XC1.

So there, few of the most interesting points from another German test, don't shoot the messenger.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

markom said:


> Bike 10/06 had pretty interesting tire test which included FRM tubelesskit, DT & Eclipse tubeless kits, Tufo C XC1 & XC2 and Dugast tires (+ UST and tubed reference tires).
> There must be some other reasons than test data for running Dugasts and Tufos as only thing they were superior was puncture test (same result as UST tire) but considering that their weight, rolling resistance and force required (in Joule, "beschleunigung", my translation is probably not correct) were inferior to tubelesskits. Testers critisised tubelesskits for burping in tight corners though.
> 
> FRM system seems interesting, just a roll of special tape (no rubber strips at all), valves and some latex juice and price is 30% higher than DT/Eclipse. Prices were 99 Euro for Dugast pair and 139e/each for Tufo XC2 and 79e/each for Tufo C XC1.
> ...


correct - in latest issue of german BIKE they tested several tubeless-systems. contestants were:

Dugast: "Michelin XCR Dry" thread on a Dugast Tubular with their own carbon wheelset
Tufo XC2 Tubular: Tufo Tubular Tires on their own Carbon Tubular wheels
Tufo Clincher XC1: Tufos clincher-Tubular tire tested on DT wheelset
DT Tubelesskit: Schwalbe Tire tested on DT Swiss wheelset
Eclipse Tubelesskit: Schwalbe Tires tested on DT Swiss Wheelset
FRM Tubelesskit: Schwalbe Tires tested on FRM-Wheelset

tested as a reference:
UST: Schwalbe tires on UST wheelset
regular tubed tire: Schwalbe tire on DT Swiss wheelset

the final result showed pretty bad readings for the tubulars. the onöy category they shined was the snakebite test. all other categories they got last places:
-heavy
-slow accelerating
-BAD rollingresistance!! 7 watts MORE than the tubelesskits! more than the UST and regular tire with tube as well which are also about 4 watts slower than the tubelesskits.

problem of that test was that they didn't test similar systems on the same wheels. the tubular tires got tested on different wheels. the DT + Eclipse tubelesskits on DT wheels, the FRM on lightweight FRM wheels, ust tire on a UST wheel...and they didn't even take the same tires for the test where possible. so it pretty much makes comparisons very difficult.

but what was shown is:
that Tubelesskits roll way faster than anything else!
Tubular tires have really bad rollingresistance
Tubular setups accelerate bad


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*tubulars roll bad...*



markom said:


> Bike 10/06 had pretty interesting tire test which included FRM tubelesskit, DT & Eclipse tubeless kits, Tufo C XC1 & XC2 and Dugast tires (+ UST and tubed reference tires).
> There must be some other reasons than test data for running Dugasts and Tufos as only thing they were superior was puncture test (same result as UST tire) but considering that their weight, rolling resistance and force required (in Joule, "beschleunigung", my translation is probably not correct) were inferior to tubelesskits. Testers critisised tubelesskits for burping in tight corners though.
> 
> FRM system seems interesting, just a roll of special tape (no rubber strips at all), valves and some latex juice and price is 30% higher than DT/Eclipse. Prices were 99 Euro for Dugast pair and 139e/each for Tufo XC2 and 79e/each for Tufo C XC1.
> ...


correct - in latest issue of german BIKE they tested several tubeless-systems. contestants were:

Dugast: "Michelin XCR Dry" thread on a Dugast Tubular with their own carbon wheelset
Tufo XC2 Tubular: Tufo Tubular Tires on their own Carbon Tubular wheels
Tufo Clincher XC1: Tufos clincher-Tubular tire tested on DT wheelset
DT Tubelesskit: Schwalbe Tire tested on DT Swiss wheelset
Eclipse Tubelesskit: Schwalbe Tires tested on DT Swiss Wheelset
FRM Tubelesskit: Schwalbe Tires tested on FRM-Wheelset

tested as a reference:
UST: Schwalbe tires on UST wheelset
regular tubed tire: Schwalbe tire on DT Swiss wheelset

the final result showed pretty bad readings for the tubulars. the onöy category they shined was the snakebite test. all other categories they got last places:
-heavy
-slow accelerating
-BAD rollingresistance!! 7 watts MORE than the tubelesskits! more than the UST and regular tire with tube as well which are also about 4 watts slower than the tubelesskits.

problem of that test was that they didn't test similar systems on the same wheels. the tubular tires got tested on different wheels. the DT + Eclipse tubelesskits on DT wheels, the FRM on lightweight FRM wheels, ust tire on a UST wheel...and they didn't even take the same tires for the test where possible. so it pretty much makes comparisons very difficult.

but what was shown is:
that Tubelesskits roll way faster than anything else!
Tubular tires have really bad rollingresistance
Tubular setups accelerate bad


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## jtc1 (Apr 13, 2004)

*hmmm. I dont understand why tubulars accelerate poorly*

as the tufo xc2 is 450 grams complete. Lighter than any tire+tubless kit+ valve+sealant AND the tubular wheels are very light as there is no rim hook (the new reynolds are less than 1350 grams). I would have thought the tubulars would be the winners in many categories as they have a nice round profile perfect for cornering.

NINO/Others - what (xc race only) wheelset are you recommending that is very light? So far Stans wheels at 1341 grams seem to be the lightest we in the US can get our hands on.

How I wish I could get the German bike magazine in english in the US - they seem to conduct a fair amount of interesting tests. Mountain bike action is getting better.


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## Some Guy (Mar 27, 2005)

> So far Stans wheels at 1341 grams seem to be the lightest we in the US can get our hands on.


What about Extralite hubs? I believe you can get them in the US, and they are lighter than the hubs notubes use. You could also use a Limelight (if it came in at claimed weight) or a Mach1 to save a bit of weight over the stans rims. Should be able to get under 1.3kg (disc).


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## chrism (Jan 27, 2004)

It appears just over 1200 is possible! http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=229399


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## Some Guy (Mar 27, 2005)

["It appears just over 1200 is possible!"]

Those rims aren't avaiable to everyone though. Using obtainable parts, a bit under 1.3kg is the best you can do.


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## Jesseg (Aug 27, 2005)

*Which Schwalbe tire were the tubelesskits tested on?*

Was it a Ralph? Which size? Was it UST?

What was the dugast casing made from? If it was like their cotton/poly cross tires, I'm surprised it wasn't fast rolling. However, that glue tape isn't good to roll on--that's what Jobst Brandt has pointed out about tubulars in general--although on the road it's not a big factor. Also, Frischy has demonstrated that glue gets challenged by front wheel grip in MTB, not sure it can be totally trusted.

Like Jtc1, I don't get it about weight and accelation. The Tufo setup should have done well in this--probably best of all their setups. Low weight and even lower rotating weight. Can anyone explain this?

I know I've got a lot of questions here--but this is a pretty important test. Nino, can you come through on this?


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## jtc1 (Apr 13, 2004)

*Reynolds was at Interbike*

I guess their new Carbon Tubulars will be $1600 for the set. That's sure to get a few interesting responses....


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## ISuckAtRiding (Jul 7, 2006)

Damn, 1300g? i thought my DT swiss xr 1540's were light @ 1540grams. oh well.... at least i know they can take some serious abuse.


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## saltydog (Aug 18, 2006)

While at InterBike Stan was showing me a set of wheels that used a new alloy for the rim that were around 1100g for the set!


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## jtc1 (Apr 13, 2004)

*More info please...*



saltydog said:


> While at InterBike Stan was showing me a set of wheels that used a new alloy for the rim that were around 1100g for the set!


Could you expand a bit? Any ETA as to when these wheels will be available? What hubs? Did they seem like a real set of wheels that a 160 lb guy could race XC on? 
Any other info?


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## saltydog (Aug 18, 2006)

They had a set at the show. The rims weighed around 200g! The hubs were the American Classics. So they are basically the same ZTR wheels with even lighter rims. Stan could not give an ETA on when they would be available to the public but he said Sauser has been racing them for a while. How durable? Who knows unitil the public rides them. I would think they would be race only at that weight but technology marches on and tough light weight stuff keeps coming out all the time.


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## nino (Jan 13, 2004)

*c'mon...*



saltydog said:


> They had a set at the show. The rims weighed around 200g! The hubs were the American Classics. So they are basically the same ZTR wheels with even lighter rims. Stan could not give an ETA on when they would be available to the public but he said Sauser has been racing them for a while. How durable? Who knows unitil the public rides them. I would think they would be race only at that weight but technology marches on and tough light weight stuff keeps coming out all the time.


no alloy rim weighs 200g!
did you see those 1100g on a scale?

i highly doubt this weight and if so it is with some thin titanium spokes.


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## Mike B. (Feb 21, 2004)

Close Rob, the set at the show weighed in at 1236g with the yellow tape and valves installed (11g per wheel). All the wheels that were raced at the World Championships with the Specialized Factory riders and Kenda/Seven riders were a little lighter at around 1180g with tape and valves. 

The show set rims were 295g and 296g with American Classic disc hubs laced 2x front and 2-3x rear with custom black XL15 spokes and red alloy nipples. Bushings were removed from between the bearings of both the front and rear hubs and some custom bearing work was done as well (not ceramic). Those wheels were the same that we raced all year long with Specialized, Tinker (lefty of course), Seamus McGrath, Mary McConnelloug, Mike Broderick, Conrad Stoltz (180lb beast) and others including lots that I can't mention. 

nino - if I remember correctly you are in Switzerland so you can check out some of the rims if you happen to cross paths with Petra Henzi, Sarah Koba, Ralf Naf, and of course Sauser.


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## snowdrifter (Aug 2, 2006)

*stans rim, the way 2 go!*

Using 342 gram stan rims, lightweight hubs, XL 15 spokes, you have a lighter or as light wheelset, that seals with with 11grams of tape and valve. Tire choice galore! Show up at a race after 3 inches of rain with your tubulars, and only have a couple choices of tires, get real! The Reynolds will probably cost well over a $1000 usd, the wheelset below can be had for $600-$700..

AC disc hubs 227 (r) 127 (f) = 334g
XL15 spokes = 258g (64 count at 262mm)
Alloy Nips = 20g ( 64 counts)
Stans Rims = 684g (pair)
Tape and Valves = 22g (pair)

total=1320g (With Stock components, use EL hubs, and 28 hole spoke pattern, and you will save about 140 grams. Now you are in the 1180 range..

The brillance of the stans rims, they trap air better, the require only tape and a valve, no 40 gram liner:nono: Then again, I'm running an old Bontrager Red rim, no clue on the weight, sub 400 if my memory serves me right.. I got it to seal up using all weather tape, and a Eclipse valve. Conti Explorers air up like doctor phil ! It's lighter than my stans front wheel by 20 grams :thumbsup: too bad the braking surface is about gone:madman:

Mike B, if you are reading, for gods sake, get a 100 or so of the 355s ceramic coated, there's a huge market for them, and add a couple milimeters to the braking surface, there's not enough when running high volumne tires, brake pads barely clear the tires,
when positioned correctly on the rims..:madman:


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## saltydog (Aug 18, 2006)

Well, there you have it. I am full of s***. I guess I heard Stan wrong or he was talking about some top secret new stuff coming down the line with a rim weight around 200g, only time will tell on that. Thanks Mike for setting the record straight.


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## LAN (Jan 26, 2004)

Nino, could you post a scan of the tire test like you have done before


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## sonyisdope (Jul 24, 2004)

Extralite UltraDisc. 1320 grams, ready to roll, and it's Extralite! It also looks like you could build up the Extralite UltraHubs with Stans, and come in at a shade lighter.

Extralite UltraHubs-298 grams
(From Snowdrifter)
XL15 spokes = 258g (64 count at 262mm)
Alloy Nips = 20g ( 64 counts)
Stans Rims = 684g (pair)
Tape and Valves = 22g (pair)

Total. . .1282g! And you can run your Crows, Maxxlites, Small Block 8's, or whatever the hell you want. Sure it's not 1180, but this is a wheelset that you can actually own.


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## Ciesiel (May 31, 2012)

*Plushness over weight*

Weight issues seem to be important, especially where rotating mass (inertia) is concerned, but tubulars provide several advantages that no other system will provide:

1.They are extremely plush - you can ride them with high pressures, still when rolling over rocks they seem as if you had much less pressure.

2.They are extremely fast, which is especially important when you go out of the corner. You feel as if someone was literally helping you out. This is probably due to the fact that in regular setups, tire "moves" with respect to the rim, whereas in tubular, there is no movement at all. It also very positively affects braking performance.

Just to sum up, I would advise anyone to ride good tubulars at least once in real terrain, before comparing to regular setups.

I use Reynolds wheels on race days only, but they are a real cracker.

Michal


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## phlegm (Jul 13, 2006)

I hope the OP wasn't waiting the full 6 years for that reply.


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