# Best Tubeless Brew?



## max_cat (Sep 30, 2007)

After running tubeless three years, I think I have tried all the different sealant types. My unscientific conclusion, if the main goal is flat protection, stan's is the best. Unfortunately, it dries up and thus builds up in the tire. To get at this problem, I have heard all kind of homemade combinations of the different tubeless product to get at a best brew of flat protection plus longevity. The latest sounded interesting superjuice with glitter. The theory is that the glitter provide better sealing protection. This sounded like little bit of a stretch to me, but at least if it came spewing out on you during a race, you would be looking good! Anybody want to throw out their experience in coming up with the "ultimate" homemade sealant brew for the rest of us to try?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Since 5/04 I been running:
1 part Latex mold builder
1 part Slime tubeless
1 part cheap antifreeze
2 parts water

Tends to last for about a year vs 3 months for Stan's, and I live in the southwest desert (LC NM). Seals better, less "wet spotting".

I will be adding glitter to the next batch I make - turns out there are different sizes (and colors!) of glitter to think about.

The idea is a range of hole plugging things, with latex at the low end (tiny holes) and moving up thru the fibers and then the rubber chunks in the tubeless slime. Glitter should add a next (or several more) size ranges of hole the sealant can plug - as well as give you lime green/red glitter sealant boogers:thumbsup: 

Antifreeze is in there as a low evaporation working fluid. I note that slime is water/fiber/chunks/propylene glycol antifreeze(low tox). I tried using PG antifreeze, but it has additives for auto use that coagulate the latex. That's why I use cheap PE antifreeze - no additives!


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## slannon (Feb 6, 2007)

wadester said:


> Since 5/04 I been running:
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 1 part Slime tubeless
> 1 part cheap antifreeze
> ...


Been using the same for a couple of months- Works great in a "Ghetto" tubeless setup with a 2.55WWLT- Don't know if the glitter adds extra protection- added some anyway. Only issue is valve (schraeder) sometimes clogs.


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## mvi (Jan 15, 2004)

Not trying to steal the thread, but does mold builder change his properties (not mixed) with time? Mine seems more solid, almost grannulating. Time for a new can?


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## CPATCRASH (Mar 9, 2004)

wadester said:


> Since 5/04 I been running:
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 1 part Slime tubeless
> 1 part cheap antifreeze
> ...


A year? Wow! Now find me a tire that last's a year!


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## MikeyLikesIt (Dec 9, 2007)

Black pepper: I've stoped a few radiator leaks with it... I wonder how it would work in your homebrew??? I may have to give it a try. 

BTW, what is Latex Mold Builder, were do you get it, and how much of this mixture do you put in each tire?

Mikey


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

Mold builder you can get from art supply shops. It's straight up latex, with a funky smelling dilutent.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

MikeyLikesIt said:


> BTW, what is Latex Mold Builder, were do you get it, and how much of this mixture do you put in each tire?
> Mikey


Cloxxki got it: art supply stores, or the internets. Hobby Lobby is my usual source, but here's one: http://www.artmolds.com/product_details.cfm?product_id=177&page=0&cat_name=Latex Rubber&u_cat=28
And more important, the Material Safety Data Sheet - which tells you it is latex and ammonia (and a bit of water, but they don't actually say that): http://www.artmolds.com/pdf/ACF5DCA.PDF



mvi said:


> Not trying to steal the thread, but does mold builder change his properties (not mixed) with time? Mine seems more solid, almost grannulating. Time for a new can?


I've brought spokeprep back to life by adding ammonia to it, and you might be able to do that to your LMB. But for $11/pt I would just spring for another jar. Once mixed into sealant, it hasn't degraded on me - stored in a glass jar inside the house.

Amount to use? Just like Stan's - for a 2.4x29 tire I use 3 scoops (2 oz ea)


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## MikeyLikesIt (Dec 9, 2007)

Thanks for the info and the links...I'm gonna give it a try. 
Mikey


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## bstrick (Nov 12, 2005)

I'm running that mixture in a 2.55 WW and a Panaracer 2.35 Rampage and love it. Tires run better tubeless no doubt.


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## Quasi (Jul 4, 2004)

Cloxxki said:


> Mold builder you can get from art supply shops. It's straight up latex, with a funky smelling dilutent.


That or just look around in your refrigerator. Why build mold when you already have an inexaustible supply? Not latex, but it will be funky smelling none the less.


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## Toxic (Jun 10, 2005)

PE antifreeze? What is the PE??
Do you mean cheap EG antifreeze?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Toxic said:


> PE antifreeze? What is the PE??
> Do you mean cheap EG antifreeze?


Yes, yes, I do. Ethylene Glycol, I.E. old school antifreeze. I blame my fingers.


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

1 Stans - 1 Slime Tubeless - 1 Bonty Super Juice. Seems good. Hoping to learn more about the glitter idea by the time I need to mount up the next tire! Maybe a little quicker acting than the little rubber plugs in the Slime.


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## MikeyLikesIt (Dec 9, 2007)

kosmo said:


> 1 Stans - 1 Slime Tubeless - 1 Bonty Super Juice. Seems good. Hoping to learn more about the glitter idea by the time I need to mount up the next tire! Maybe a little quicker acting than the little rubber plugs in the Slime.


How long have you been running this mixture?


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

MikeyLikesIt said:


> How long have you been running this mixture?


Only a couple of months. Previously, I used 1 part stans to 1 part Tubeless Slime. I added the Bonty Super Juice at the recommendation of MikeSee, who said it really helps keep the stuff from drying out.


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## MikeyLikesIt (Dec 9, 2007)

Hey wadester, or anyone...

Is latex the base material for Slime?? I live in a small town and the 'Mold Maker' (liquid latex) can't be found localy. :madmax: I was just wondering if your formula would work using an extra part Slime (in place of the mold maker). I can get Slime just about anywhere and it is relatively inexpensive. 

What do you think of this variation to your recipe??

2 parts Slime 
1 part cheap antifreeze
2 parts water
a spoonful of glitter
and a dash of black pepper just to flavor things up

Mikey


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Uh, no.....*



MikeyLikesIt said:


> Hey wadester, or anyone...
> 
> Is latex the base material for Slime?? I live in a small town and the 'Mold Maker' (liquid latex) can't be found localy. :madmax: I was just wondering if your formula would work using an extra part Slime (in place of the mold maker). I can get Slime just about anywhere and it is relatively inexpensive.
> 
> ...


Slime is just antifreeze/water/fiber - and chunks in tubeless. Adding more/different chunks may improve your basic Slime, but I think that the real key to tubeless is the latex. That's what seals the beads and sidewall porosity.

Like I said earlier - you just gotta pony-up and get that jar of latex. I mix mine in a 5 pint pickle jar (barely fits - gotta stir that last water in carefully) and use till gone. I actually find that the mixed sealant is good to the last drop, but the latex will dry out in the jar


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## nynx (Mar 1, 2007)

I had slime from tha auto parts store and compared it to the regular and tubeless slime. The auto parts stuff is noticeably chunkier. I now run the same mix as most everyone else here.

1 pt mold builder
1 pt slime (auto parts store stuff)
1 pt antifreeze
1 pt windex

It has been running strong in my tubeless rig (819 rims and Specialized Enduro UST 2.3 tires) for 6 months without replenishing. Stan's usually lasted a month here in the desert. The true testament will be if it can outlast the summer... The tires are about half worn and I never thought tires could be this trouble free!

I've had lots of cactus thorns, 1 nail and 1 piece of glass. All have sealed quickly. The only downside is the stuff is slightly nasty looking when it picks up dirt after sealing a hole. Oh and you need to mix all the mold builder up in one shot. As such it helps to have friends who want to do their tires as well. A batch turns out about 3/4 gallon.


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## max_cat (Sep 30, 2007)

*Thanks for the input*

It was interesting to see all the combinations. I think I am going to try the bonrtrager super juice as the base, slime (for cars to get the bigger chunks), glitter (purple sparkling), and dark, dark orange food coloring. I think this mixture should cover the gamut of hole sizes. In addition, if everything fails and I get the dreaded tubeless shower, I will be a chick magnet; orange stripes, purple glitter, and chunks of flourescent green!


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## MikeyLikesIt (Dec 9, 2007)

OK, last night, I mixed up wadesters recipe and added about 2 ozs of glitter. Did the getto tubeless thing on a 26 in wheel with an old velocirapter front tire. The tire had severall punctures. When I aired it up to seat the bead, I could here and feel the air escapeing from the holes. After the bead was set, I added the mixture (about 3oz) and aired it up again...as I turned the wheel in my hand I could literaly hear the holes seal up...instantly! The bead sealed fairly well in a matter of seconds but did continue to weep a tiny amount of sealent over night. The sidewall is still weeping some small pinhead sized spots in a few places but after 24 hrs I can't tell that it has lost any pressure. I'm going to go hammer it on the trails tommorow and see how it holds up. 

I think wadester is right about the latex 'mold builder'. The sidewall and bead seems to leak such small amounts that the chunks and fiber are of little use...but the latex will eventually seal up the pours...I hope.

Mikey


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Pics - opened up*

1) The Ignitor/road rim/stanstrip on the front of the Karate Monkey after a year. After no problemo for nearly a year, had to pump up twice during one ride. This was March

2) The Rampage/notube rim/stanstrip that's been running since the Rampage came out. Same deal - suddenly had to keep pumpin' it up.

3) Tread condition of Rampage

4) The sealant booger out of the Rampage - none in Ignitor


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Puttin' it back*

1) The good stuff: 5 pints of Wade's Secret Sauce, and three sizes of glitter. I consulted with my local glitter expert (my 11yo daughter), and found that glitter comes in different sizes - purple is medium, red is fine, the light blue/iridescent is x-fine. Woulda got a nicer color for the x-fine glitter, but this is what they had.

2) 3 scoops of sauce, and 1/2 teaspoon of each glitter

3) My secret weapon for beading a tubeless setup: It's just the soapy water mix recommended by Stan - the trick is the recycled pump spray bottle. Puts a good dose of lube on the bead where it belongs w/o making a huge mess - and the fine spray seems to wet the tire very well. Just stick the nozzle between the bead and the rim and spray all the way around the wheel.

As a note, I got a small sidewall tear on the next ride - but noticed it at a stop because there was a tic-tac sized green bubble on the sidewall. Left it alone and it sealed up dry.


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## MikeyLikesIt (Dec 9, 2007)

Wade, I've been real happy with the setup I did using the old velociraptor and your 'sauce'. If this stuff last as long as you say, then I'll forgo the Stans. 

I have three sons that ride and get flats...I'd/we'd been repairing about two a week. I didn't want to do the tubless thing yet on all those bikes, so I just removed the valve stem core and squirted about 1 1/2 to two ozs. in each. No more flats...well, one exception...one of my sons hit a big rock and got an instant pinch flat. We pumped a little air in the tire, quickly laid it on its side and rotated and repeated on the other side. The holes sealed up and he has been riding that same tube since. I'm impressed. :thumbsup: 

Mikey


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

*Chunks....`*

I've been going straight Stan's for years and evaporation has not been an issue in the damp NE.

An observation. Seems to me the last few bottles of Stan's I used have been much less granular (or chunky). The stuff seems almost like fresh milk instead of the old time Stan's which reminded me of sour, chunky milk. The last few punctures I've had were not sealing as they seemed just a bit too big for the Stan's to plug up. Thing is the holes were not that big and the mix just squirted out with out sealing. When it did ultimately seal the spots would often re-rupture quite easily. In the past I've had far larger holes easily plug with Stan's.

Any thoughts?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Miker J said:


> I've been going straight Stan's for years and evaporation has not been an issue in the damp NE.
> 
> An observation. Seems to me the last few bottles of Stan's I used have been much less granular (or chunky). The stuff seems almost like fresh milk instead of the old time Stan's which reminded me of sour, chunky milk. The last few punctures I've had were not sealing as they seemed just a bit too big for the Stan's to plug up. Thing is the holes were not that big and the mix just squirted out with out sealing. When it did ultimately seal the spots would often re-rupture quite easily. In the past I've had far larger holes easily plug with Stan's.
> 
> Any thoughts?


I think you've stated the problem well: no chunks! I know that my sealant needs to be well-stirred to have the full blend rather than a layer of soup and a layer of extra-chunky. Perhaps Stan's process isn't always mixing well and you got a jug o' soup? Anyways, mix in some tubeless slime and/or glitter to re-chunkulate.


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## FlintPaper (Dec 17, 2006)

I just mixed up a half gallon of Wadester's mix last night (with glitter).

Hopefully I'll be testing it out this weekend on a Weirwolf / Flow combination.


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## Fat Bob (Mar 5, 2004)

wadester said:


> I think you've stated the problem well: no chunks! I know that my sealant needs to be well-stirred to have the full blend rather than a layer of soup and a layer of extra-chunky. Perhaps Stan's process isn't always mixing well and you got a jug o' soup? Anyways, mix in some tubeless slime and/or glitter to re-chunkulate.


Yup, add some slime that'll chunk it up


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## max_cat (Sep 30, 2007)

*New Word*

This board is great. I learned a new word.

Chunkulate: definition - to add particles to tubeless sealant or the process that follows from drinking to much Tequila the night before.


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## field3 (Oct 20, 2007)

Tangent: Aside from all your ghetto mixing? How goes using non-tubeless tires on a converted clincher to tubeless wheel? And if any of you went tubeless conversion did you go ghetto too? or did you buy the kits?


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## rensho (Mar 8, 2004)

I mix mine in a baby shampoo bottle. It is 24oz. It comes with a open/close pour spout. Shake well before pouring. I'll try the glitter next time.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

field3 said:


> Tangent: Aside from all your ghetto mixing? How goes using non-tubeless tires on a converted clincher to tubeless wheel? And if any of you went tubeless conversion did you go ghetto too? or did you buy the kits?


After doing lots of reading, I decided to order a Stan's tubeless kit online. But while waiting for my kit, I went ahead and experimented with 'ghetto tubeless', since there was plenty of green slime, and old inner-tubes lying around the shed anyway.

I found the ghetto experiment was useful, but purely as a learning exercise. It did prove my chosen tires will air-up easily with just a floor-pump and sudsy water. Plus it proves that my rims need a layer of weather-stripping. But on the downside, I found ghetto tubeless messy and fiddly, plus I was unable to keep it inflated for any length of time. To sum up, it's easier to go with a kit.


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

*I use both...*



field3 said:


> Tangent: Aside from all your ghetto mixing? How goes using non-tubeless tires on a converted clincher to tubeless wheel? And if any of you went tubeless conversion did you go ghetto too? or did you buy the kits?


I run both. Ghetto tubeless and Stans system.

With the Stans Arch and Flow rims, I use just the yellow tape and a valve with Stans liquid.

On the ghetto tubeless, a split 26" tube over the top of some Velo tape works fine with Stans liquid. Never had a single problem with either so far.

Just one thing though. If you are going to go the ghetto method, try to get the inner tubes with the removable valve core, it makes topping up the liquid sealant way easier.

R.


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## single track mind (Jun 19, 2004)

I ran tubeless a few years back but gave up because I kept burping tires (especially after a particularly bad rock to rim incedent).

I never tried back then, so forgive my ignorance, but will CO2 "freeze" the sealant if you try to re-inflate after a tear or puncture that doesn't seal right away?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

field3 said:


> Tangent: Aside from all your ghetto mixing? How goes using non-tubeless tires on a converted clincher to tubeless wheel? And if any of you went tubeless conversion did you go ghetto too? or did you buy the kits?





hootsmon said:


> After doing lots of reading, I decided to order a Stan's tubeless kit online. But while waiting for my kit, I went ahead and experimented with 'ghetto tubeless', since there was plenty of green slime, and old inner-tubes lying around the shed anyway.
> 
> I found the ghetto experiment was useful, but purely as a learning exercise. It did prove my chosen tires will air-up easily with just a floor-pump and sudsy water. Plus it proves that my rims need a layer of weather-stripping. But on the downside, I found ghetto tubeless messy and fiddly, plus I was unable to keep it inflated for any length of time. To sum up, it's easier to go with a kit.


For sealant, homebrew works better. 
For tires, YMMV - each tire/rim combo has its own dynamic. That said, I've never had a tire not work altho some are easier than others. 
For rims - notubes rims are the bomb, and are most likely to work for all. I have converted a couple of other rims, and find standard rims to be more "fiddly". You have to keep the pressures higher with them, and when they run out of sealant seem to lose a bead vs the notubes which will let you keep pumping up til you get back.
rimstrips - I haven't tried ghetto, or the yellow tape. I went with stanstrips and they work well, so haven't changed. They aren't a wear part, so once bought - you're golden.


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## 5titusguy (Jan 14, 2008)

While your at the craft store getting your Mold Builder pick up some Silica beads. They are used for drying flowers....
Then you can put some of these tiny balls/pellets in your tire and they seal up tiny and bigger holes,,,, I have not put a micrometer on them but they work well,,, and you buy one bag that will last a life time for $5.
my Mix

1 part Mold builder
1 part Napa Auto tire sealant
2 parts EG anti freeze 
1/3 "stans" (cytomax) size scoop in tire


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## GreenLightGo (Oct 24, 2006)

single track mind said:


> I ran tubeless a few years back but gave up because I kept burping tires (especially after a particularly bad rock to rim incedent).
> 
> I never tried back then, so forgive my ignorance, but will CO2 "freeze" the sealant if you try to re-inflate after a tear or puncture that doesn't seal right away?


CO2 will 'consume' some Stans latex. Lately, I've mixed Stans with Slime and found it to be much more resistant to the latex boogering.


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## bikerideAZ (Apr 8, 2007)

Miker J said:


> Seems to me the last few bottles of Stan's I used have been much less granular (or chunky). The stuff seems almost like fresh milk instead of the old time Stan's which reminded me of sour, chunky milk. The last few punctures I've had were not sealing as they seemed just a bit too big for the Stan's to plug up. Thing is the holes were not that big and the mix just squirted out with out sealing. When it did ultimately seal the spots would often re-rupture quite easily. In the past I've had far larger holes easily plug with Stan's.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Try using mica instead of glitter. Mica was teh large glittery stuff used in paper products that *Stan's used to use before they changed to the small coagulant that doesn't work quite as well.* I'm sure it saves Stan's money, but if I have to add product to make their product work like it used to then I might as well make my own.

Mica is found in the paper making isle at any Michaels type store.


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## JoeandEaston (May 3, 2004)

Is Stan's getting cheap on us? Is glitter expensive? Maybe whatever Stans uses is expensive.

I have been using this mixture with good, not great results for more than a year. I've had to add to it and clean out the tire several times during that time. It's being used in a commuter specific bike with 1.5" specialized tires. (and also my MTB's) Most recently when I checked it, it appeared the latex was dried out and there was green colored water like in the photo's above. I have not been adding the cheap antifreeze, but will start now.


1 part latex mold builder 
1 part slime
2 parts water

While this formula has sealed many punctures, it does need maintenance to stay alive. I originally read about the antifreeze and did not want to use it for fear it would damage my tires, but this thread has made me see the error of my thoughts. I'll add it next maintenance opportunity.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

I've been running Stan's on Arch rims with fine results. Just did 6 wheels with Stan's and ghetto (26" tubes) and had some trouble with one (Saguaro on Holm 40mm rim). Now I find that I have a bunch of Slime for tubes from some years back. Has anyone tried mixing it with Stan's? I know everyone states tubeless Slime, but I have the tube schtuff.  

I will try it and report back, if noone knows. I think that 2 scoops Stans and 1 scoop Slime tube in that monster tire. :thumbsup:


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

I run Slime with Stans, it works fine.


R.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Rainman said:


> I run Slime with Stans, it works fine.
> 
> R.


Yeah, lots of posts here an other places about mixing them; it is the kind of Slime I'm asking about. Am I wasting time to use the tube version I have? Is the tubeless Slime required? Inquiring minds want to know........


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

slocaus said:


> Yeah, lots of posts here an other places about mixing them; it is the kind of Slime I'm asking about. Am I wasting time to use the tube version I have? Is the tubeless Slime required? Inquiring minds want to know........


The difference between tubeless slime and "regular" slime - is the addition of rubber chunks. If you use regular, you won't get as much chunk action. I have been told (and have it in trial now) that adding glitter gives you good chunk selection - especially since there are at least 4 or 5 sizes of glitter. And colors - think milky green fluid with purple glitter.


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## GRAVELBIKE (Oct 7, 2006)

If you're running UST, and just want a little thorn protection, would straight Stan's be the best choice?


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

MileHighMark said:


> If you're running UST, and just want a little thorn protection, would straight Stan's be the best choice?


Stans works fine, but is still subject to the faster drying out syndrome...which is why you should mix your own brew... :thumbsup:

On average, in warm to hot temps, Stans has to be topped up every 3 months or so... whereas a home brew can last up to a year.

R.


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## jpeaslee (Jul 12, 2005)

I went out and got stuff to try wade's brew this afternoon. I got the wrong slime, so hopefully i can swap that out this afternoon. I did find a 40% off coupon for hobby lobby (where i got the latex). Normally its about 12 bucks, so its a decent discount IMO.

Here is the coupon.

*no, i'm in no way related or tied to Hobby Lobby. Just thought i'd pass on the discount to you fellas.


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

Can anyone give a specific brand or place you're purchasing your cheap anti-freeze? I can't seem to find anything that I think will work. It looks like the RV stuff is more in line with what is necessary, but I am not sure.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Schmucker said:


> Can anyone give a specific brand or place you're purchasing your cheap anti-freeze? I can't seem to find anything that I think will work. It looks like the RV stuff is more in line with what is necessary, but I am not sure.


Basically any generic / house brand. Here is one example.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

The gallon I'm still using (1 pt at a time) is Auto Zone - I imagine the house brand of any low budget auto place will do.

When I run out of that stuff, I intend to go puro:
http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_G_R-Propylene_Glycol.html
No additives at all, and non toxic to boot. $12/qt, $20.58/gallon.


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## Soupboy (Jan 13, 2004)

Pure air from atmosphere, wrapped in a Yes T00b.


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## NCtrailX (Feb 26, 2004)

Stans and Slime mixed? Slime says it'll last 2 years and Stans is lasting 2-3 months. Sounds like I should get better life out of a mix, but does it work?

Any long term feedback on a mix of Stans & Slime? What Slime did you use? And what was the mix ratio Stans:Slime? Thanks!


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## max_cat (Sep 30, 2007)

*Slime & Bontrager Super Juice*

Personally, after changing everything I have found 1 part slime 2 parts super juice as the best long lasting combo.


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## bulldognz (Jan 10, 2008)

Reading all of this makes me wonder if I should just go to the Solid Tires I had on my trike as a kid:thumbsup:


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

I'm currently running 2 parts Stans with one part Slime [and glitter].

No sealing problems and it lasts a long time...:thumbsup: The Slime helps to prevent the Stans from drying out too fast.

R.


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## doctorholguin (May 9, 2007)

nynx said:


> I had slime from tha auto parts store and compared it to the regular and tubeless slime. The auto parts stuff is noticeably chunkier. I now run the same mix as most everyone else here.
> 
> 1 pt mold builder
> 1 pt slime (auto parts store stuff)
> ...


i am about to mix my home made sealant, and i am wondering if your brew dries up quickly...i noticed that wadester commented that his brew does dry up...i am so excited about making my own stuff for my bike..


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## kosmo (Oct 27, 2004)

Rainman said:


> I'm currently running 2 parts Stans with one part Slime [and glitter].
> 
> No sealing problems and it lasts a long time...:thumbsup: The Slime helps to prevent the Stans from drying out too fast.
> 
> R.


Same, same. Best combo I've found. I'm not sure the glitter does anything, but it looks really pretty on your gloves and shorts when you do get that flat every year or so.


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## Kyle2834 (May 4, 2007)

BUMP, because this is the best thread covering the subject. As always, there can never be enough opinions.  I wish this was stickied in the Wheels&Tire subforum.


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## inzane (Jun 20, 2006)

wadester said:


> The gallon I'm still using (1 pt at a time) is Auto Zone - I imagine the house brand of any low budget auto place will do.
> 
> When I run out of that stuff, I intend to go puro:
> http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_G_R-Propylene_Glycol.html
> No additives at all, and non toxic to boot. $12/qt, $20.58/gallon.


Yep, I have used Propylene Glycol (we have it at work).

Just a note, last time I did this I added the PG straight to the latex and it made one large lump of latex?? If you mix the latex with water etc first however and then add the PG it seems to work fine...


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## marty_hd (Oct 26, 2005)

Some more data points:

I found some 5 or 6 year old slime sealant (the kind you put into an inner tube) in my garage so I tried a ghetto-tubeless wheelset before using my new stans goo.
Rims: Bontrager Mustang
Tires: Stan's Crows

I put pure slime in one wheel and it stayed inflated for about 24 to 36 hours.
In the next wheel I placed a mixture of 2/3s slime and 1/3 Stans. That wheel held pressure for a week before getting a bit soft.

So I added a scoop of Stans to the wheel with pure slime and it now is holding pressure with no apparent loss (going on 4th week).

Cheer,
Marty


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

inzane said:


> Yep, I have used Propylene Glycol (we have it at work).
> 
> Just a note, last time I did this I added the PG straight to the latex and it made one large lump of latex?? If you mix the latex with water etc first however and then add the PG it seems to work fine...


Wow. This is a good data point, and one I'll have to experiment with. The time I used NoTox antifreeze (Prestone?) I noticed that the latex had turned into strings and lumps. I tested my assumptions by putting a scoop of NoTox into a small jar, then adding a scoop of latex on top. Put down the scoop, put on the lid, and gave the jar a shake to mix - except the latex was a solid ball. Just a white rubber ball floating in NoTox - that quick. My Chemical Engineer neighbor told me that it was probably the additive package (anti corrosion/stop leak/etc) that did it - he didn't know of any reactivity between PG and latex. Looks like there's more to it, like perhaps a mixing technique.

I just mixed another jug of sealant with cheap EG antifreeze. I recall putting in the latex first, then either slime or water - using the latex jar as a measurement and also rinsing out latex. Don't recall when the EG/AF went in. I'll have to try to make a few more rubber balls with antifreeze, both EG and PE - just for science, you know.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

You will have to change that byline from "Dr Gadget is in" to "Dr Goop is in".


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

slocaus said:


> You will have to change that byline from "Dr Gadget is in" to "Dr Goop is in".


How 'bout just "Muaah-ha-haaaaaaa" or some other good evil-scientist qoute?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

wadester said:


> How 'bout just "Muaah-ha-haaaaaaa" or some other good evil-scientist qoute?


Well, (trying to stay semi on topic ), if the bead blows off, this one comes to mind.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Ot*



slocaus said:


> Well, (trying to stay semi on topic ), if the bead blows off, this one comes to mind.


Good heavens, Miss Sakamoto!

You're beautiful!


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## PsyCro (Jun 8, 2007)

Kyle2834 said:


> BUMP, because this is the best thread covering the subject. As always, there can never be enough opinions.  *I wish this was stickied in the Wheels&Tire subforum*.


Not gonna happen.. Stans, Joes, Bontrager etc wouldnt like it.


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## NCtrailX (Feb 26, 2004)

On the Stans / Slime mix...how much total sealant are you using. Stans offers those 2 oz bottles which are supposed to be good for one tire.

Sounds like some use 2 scoops - which would be 4 oz. So what about when mixed? Can I get by with a scoop of Stans and a half scoop of Slime for the 2:1 mix?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

sthrnfat said:


> On the Stans / Slime mix...how much total sealant are you using. Stans offers those 2 oz bottles which are supposed to be good for one tire.
> 
> Sounds like some use 2 scoops - which would be 4 oz. So what about when mixed? Can I get buy with a scoop of Stans and a half scoop of Slime for the 2:1 mix?


Depends on the size of tire and rim, therefore the resultant volume and surface area to coat. Stans Arch with a 2.1 tire, I use 2/3 Stans and 1/3 Slime for a total of 2 oz. I inflate with no fluid and valve core removed, and then use the injector to add the mix. On my humongeous Kris Holm rims with a 2.55 lt or RR 2.4, I use 4 oz. Any ghetto tubeless, I use 3-4 oz since there is more to seal and more fluid will be needed to compensate for leakage. Since I live in a dry climate, I recharge with 1-2 oz of fluid every 2-3 months.


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## Datalogger (Jul 5, 2008)

slocaus said:


> Well, (trying to stay semi on topic ), if the bead blows off, this one comes to mind.


Haha, I thought the same thing! An old favorite!

Back on topic- I have found that on some tires 2oz is more than enough. On other tires (such as my non-UST 2.35 Kenda Nevegal DTC's), 4oz was needed.

-Josh


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Chunkulation datapoint*

An unfortunate mishap. Happened on the third ride with a new Rampage. Wah. The good was that the sealant actually sealed the hole - the bad was that it would only hold about 15psi, (as I pumped it up it would "pop" at 15, then reseal) and wouldn't hold for actual riding.

But this is my first chance to eval glitter: Looks like it did some good, or at least it was in the plug. This was after a good water wash.

The hole on the inside looks tiny, but sealant was oozing thru a 1/2" line on the outside.
1) Outside
2) Inside
3) Plug removed
4) Plug


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

wadester said:


> An unfortunate mishap. Happened on the third ride with a new Rampage. Wah. The good was that the sealant actually sealed the hole - the bad was that it would only hold about 15psi, (as I pumped it up it would "pop" at 15, then reseal) and wouldn't hold for actual riding.


Thanks for the pictures. Interesting that it would seal but not hold over 15psi or be able to ride out at 15 psi (carefully, of course). I have a couple ghetto wheels to redo, and I am going to add some glitter to my Stan's / Slime tubeless mix.


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## Mallanaga (Jun 30, 2007)

so... i'm gonna make some brew.

i like the idea of using proven names in the brew, instead of household products. nothing wrong with that... but why go reinvent the wheel... right?

2 parts stans
1 part tubeless slime
1/2 part mica... roughly
maybe some fresh ground pepper for taste

i have big 'ol WW up front... smaller vulpine in the rear. 4 oz and 3 oz respectively probably.

yes... that should do it. i was trying out the ghetto tubeless in the back for the past week. blew the entire tire off the rim coming off a curb today... about 35psi... wtf. so i have to get some real rim strip from stans... maybe some weather stripping to boot. i'll be in touch =)


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

wadester said:


> The gallon I'm still using (1 pt at a time) is Auto Zone - I imagine the house brand of any low budget auto place will do.
> 
> When I run out of that stuff, I intend to go puro:
> http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_G_R-Propylene_Glycol.html
> No additives at all, and non toxic to boot. $12/qt, $20.58/gallon.


I like the idea of non-toxic, wonder if pure PG is a good idea after reading this in Wikipedia:

"Propylene Glycol oxidizes when exposed to air and heat. When this occurs, organic acids are formed viz. Glycolic acid, Glyoxalic acid, Formic acid, Carbonic acid & Oxalic acid. If not properly inhibited, this fluid can be very corrosive."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifreeze

Maybe the additives in automotive PG are a good thing?


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Bump, for a good solution.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

I decided to give the home brew recipe a try. I can only imagine what the girl at the crafts store register must've been thinking when this middle aged guy strolls up with a tub of latex & three kinds of glitter :lol:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

It will be worth it to try this just to see the expression on the girls face.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Wadster Your recipe is :
1 part Latex mold builder
1 part Slime tubeless
1 part cheap antifreeze
2 parts water

I have noticed that some people use windshield washer fluid instead of antifreeze and water. Since windshield fluid has ammonia or some other solvent in it and is mostly water do you think substituting windshield washer fluid for the water is a possible improvement?


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

So I finished mounting up two tires on Cane Creek Zonos UST wheels with mixed results.

The front is a Panaracer Rampage non-UST (26x2.35). It mounted first try no problem. No leaks, bubbles, weeping, boogers. 

The rear is a 26x2.3 Hutchinson Python new Generation Air Light also non-UST. I've used these before ghetto tubeless with good results so I expected it would be a breeze. 

Nope. 

There was about a three inch section of the bead that wouldn't seal to the rim. I tried several times but it kept gurgling sealant. I finally bled the rest of the air out of the tire & pulled it back to see what's up. Glitter. A big wad of glitter was stuck between the sidewall & rim. I cleaned it out, aired up again & *POP!* sealed like a champ. 

So I guess the moral is don't get too carried away with the glitter. Oh, and ditching the tubes knocked 100 grams off the bike


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> Wadster Your recipe is :
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 1 part Slime tubeless
> 1 part cheap antifreeze
> ...


The original idea behind WWF was to add ammonia, since that is what is used to keep the latex liquid. Here's a qoute:"ammonia (NH3) will be added to prevent the latex from coagulating. The two types of ammonia that can be used are 1) Concentrated Latex High ammonia: HA which uses 0.7% ammonia to rubber's weight 2) Concentrated Latex Low ammonia: LA which uses 0.2% ammonia to rubber's weight as well as other chemicals in order to store the latex for future use or to undergo other manufacturing process"

But the funny thing is, when you check out the ingredients in most WWF (may need to find the MSDS or material safety data sheet) - its just soapy water and blue color, with maybe some methyl alcohol! Adding soap to sealant is probably a bad idea since soap is about separating things, not gluing them together.

Ammonia is kinda like a stronger version of bleach, and I think that the problems that have happened in the past with tires deteriorating due to sealant is about the ammonia.
As a note, every time I've pulled a tire off due to sealant dryout, its been completely dry. I've never had a case where the latex was all gone, but there was water/antifreeze left (clear green instead of milky). This implies to me that I don't need to add more ammonia to keep the latex liquid.

If I was going to try Ammonia, I would get some clear ammonia - from the cleaning supplies section. Its basically just water with ammonia (MSDS says a whopping 2-3%!)- so would be a good replacement for the water in my recipe. I note that latex mold builder is listed as 1% ammonia by weight, so this should significantly raise the ammonia content.

If you try ammonia, come back and let us know how it worked. I suspect that you would have to do one tire with water and the other with clear ammonia to tell a difference.


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## Datalogger (Jul 5, 2008)

jeffw-13 said:


> So I guess the moral is don't get too carried away with the glitter.


Quoted for comedy factor! :thumbsup:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

When I was reading the recipe and the amonia thing came up I immediatly thought of Windex. It is mostly water with a little amonia and blue dye. I will probably try windex in my mixture in place of the water. I don't know if I will go the the trouble to mix 2 batches one with water and one with amonia and compair, but I might compair to my current mix of Stans with 1/3 Slime. What I might also do is mix up 2 very small batches in a jar and see if the Windex provides a longer shelf life.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

I'm pretty sure the liquid latex I got has ammonia in it. Sure smells like it.


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## Kyle2834 (May 4, 2007)

Yup. You should try those smelling salts if you ever get the chance. It's worth trying.


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## G-Live (Jan 14, 2004)

kosmo said:


> 1 Stans - 1 Slime Tubeless - 1 Bonty Super Juice. Seems good. Hoping to learn more about the glitter idea by the time I need to mount up the next tire! Maybe a little quicker acting than the little rubber plugs in the Slime.


Any long term input on this set up? Just a little less hassle it would seem than mixing the whole thing. More expensive though of course.
Thanks
G


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## supersleeper (Feb 9, 2008)

Thanks, Wadester. Your brew works and costs a fraction of Stans/Joe's.


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

*Anyone else seen this?*

OK I mixed up a batch of Wadester's brew and have used it in two sets of tires. With my nokian tires on my cross bike no probably whatsoever. Had a hole in one of the tires when I mounted them and it sealed right up.:thumbsup:

Then I did a ghetto setup on my 26" utility bike which I'm running WTB All Terrainasaurus on. Everything locked and aired up fine but my back tire will continually be flat after it sits for a day. The sidewalls remain wet and when I add air I can hear it escapping from several spots in the sidewall. I'm thinking this is more a factor of the tires than the brew but has anyone else experienced this? Why won't my sidewalls seal up? I know Stan's is pretty runny too, but I'm wondering if this mixture is just a little too runny. Has anyone tried it with a stronger latex ratio?

FYI I let these tires sit on their sides for at least a few hours after I mounted them up.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

After several weeks the Rampage front tire still shows little green droplets along the sidewall & needs about 10 PSI added daily to bring it up to 30psi.

A couple rides ago I nicked the sidewall on the rear and it spewed air & sealant and wouldn't seal. I ended up putting a tube in & have been riding that way since. Nothing like sealant on your brake rotors. :lol: 

I think I'm gonna have to break down & get some actual UST tires at some point.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

bikerfish said:


> OK I mixed up a batch of Wadester's brew and have used it in two sets of tires. With my nokian tires on my cross bike no probably whatsoever. Had a hole in one of the tires when I mounted them and it sealed right up.:thumbsup:
> 
> Then I did a ghetto setup on my 26" utility bike which I'm running WTB All Terrainasaurus on. Everything locked and aired up fine but my back tire will continually be flat after it sits for a day. The sidewalls remain wet and when I add air I can hear it escapping from several spots in the sidewall. I'm thinking this is more a factor of the tires than the brew but has anyone else experienced this? Why won't my sidewalls seal up? I know Stan's is pretty runny too, but I'm wondering if this mixture is just a little too runny. Has anyone tried it with a stronger latex ratio?
> 
> FYI I let these tires sit on their sides for at least a few hours after I mounted them up.


You need to keep them laying on their sides and flipping them until the latex can seal the porous sidewalls. I had one tire that took over two full days to finally seal, a WTB Prowler. Just flip it every few hours as convienient, I did them in the morning before I left for work and at night when I got home. Unless you keep them flat, the sealing process will take so much longer. I have realized that the most important component to tubeless conversions is not the rim, tire, solution, etc., but just patience - buckets and buckets of patience.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The other thing I would add is use soap when mounting. Soap really lets the bead seat well and I used to have problems with leakage around the bead before I started using a spray bottle of Dawn/water mix and an air compressor is also recommended (I always used that).

Like the above posters said, some brands/models of tire will weep through little pin holes in the sidewalls unless you let the tires sit for long times at first. Generally though, these little leaks will amount to less than a pound or 2 a day so if you are losing 10 psi per day, I would suspect the bead seal and remount with lots of soap.


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## Tone No Balone (Dec 11, 2004)

Hey Tim, I have been having the same problem with a front prowler. Need to inflate before every ride. Looks like the side walls are weeping. I am getting ready to put an ignightor on the rear and I'm thinking of trying the reciepe of 2 part stans to 1 part slime. This has been my first experience with the 29 wheel and it seems like you need to put much more sealant in that you would in the 26. I'm thinking maybe 2 scoops stans/one scoop slime.
where do I find this slime product? Prolly will have to break down and re install the prowler too!


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Tone, I pick up the tubeless tire stuff at an auto parts store . Retail there is cheaper than my cost at the shop. Yes, my Prowler wept for weeks, but did not loose much pressure. I burped it and went down about four months after first install, so I removed it to clean out the dirt and detritus I scooped up, even though it inflated and got me home. 

I have now reinstalled it three times, it wept through the injection mold feeler things for weeks. I would ride it just fine, and then after it sat for a couple days, it would weep. I an on a Mtn. King now, and back to Prowler in summer.

John had to glue his with rubber cement on his Edge rims, and he recommends doing that on all rims. He puts a coat on the tire bead, and some on the rim bead. I will do that when I reinstall mine for the summer.


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## Datalogger (Jul 5, 2008)

My Nevegal 2.35 has been mounted for a few months but still seeps slightly through the sidewalls. It holds air just fine though.


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## Treetrimmer (Dec 8, 2008)

*Latex Ratio*



bikerfish said:


> Has anyone tried it with a stronger latex ratio?


I had the same problem, but the tire would only loose about 10psi in a couple of days. And the wetness on the side walls was translucent green. I ended up using 1.5 latex instead of 1 in my next mix and it seemed to help. I did not lay my rims on the sides over night. When I pulled a goat head out of my front tire it did not seal. I broke the bead and checked and there was very little sealant left after only 2 weeks. I think it slowly seeped through. With the new mix added (approx 3oz) it sealed the thorn hole instantly. Then I punctured my rear tire (latex=1 mix) and it sealed after spinning my wheel. I have just been making small batches each time I have the need for the spooge so I don't commit all of my materials till I am comfortable with the mix. Right now I have the original Ghetto mix in the rear and the 1.5 latex mix in the front and both are working. If I keep leaking I will do the overnight on the side method, but for now its OK, since I check my tire psi before each ride anyway. This is all new to me too and have only 150miles since my 1st Ghetto setup.

Treetrimmer


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## scralatchtica824 (May 6, 2008)

I've found 4 parts stans to 1 part bontrager juice works amazing.. Stans alone dries up too quick. The combination lasts much longer and with different consistencies it works great.


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## Tone No Balone (Dec 11, 2004)

I think I am going to try 2 parts Stan's 1 part Slime(tubless type w/chunks?) and a pinch of glitter!
what the hay!


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## Kyle2834 (May 4, 2007)

I pretty much do equal parts slime, latex, EG antifreeze....depending on what tire I'm trying to get sealed.

I've mixed in a few different ratios, and find the EG antifreeze helped with the longevity of slime+latex.


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## azpoolguy (Oct 23, 2008)

Are you guys still finding dried blobs of latex in your tires using the home brew? I'm using 50/50 Stan's and tubeless slime and still have large dried blobs after 2 months. How often do you check your sealant or do you just shake and listen for liquid rolling around still?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Not to worry*



azpoolguy said:


> Are you guys still finding dried blobs of latex in your tires using the home brew? I'm using 50/50 Stan's and tubeless slime and still have large dried blobs after 2 months. How often do you check your sealant or do you just shake and listen for liquid rolling around still?


I've thought about ways to check the sealant level in my tires - but it always requires that you either break the bead or at least completely depressurize the tire, so a small bit of hassle. I've never been good at the "spin&slosh" method. I just run along like a happy camper until I notice that I have to keep pumping the tire up during the ride - go home, open it up, find it dry, fill'er up. Sometimes, if I don't note the pressure dropping I'll roll the bead apart and have to tube it - but that's no biggie once the sealant is dried out.

With DIY sealant, I notice fewer sealant boogers - but still get'em. Of course, my sealant lasts long time - so by the time I go in there, the boogers are as big as any Stan's boogers I ever saw. Except that they're flourescent green and have rainbow glitter in them. Schweet!


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## Tone No Balone (Dec 11, 2004)

Ok ......rainy day task...

Stan's ZTR Arch Hoop's
Front- re mounting my fairly new WTB Prowler 2.1

Rear- installing and mounting a new Maxxis ignitor 2.1

went just about 50-50 on the stan's and the slime for almost 4oz per tire

spray bottle Dawn/water mix on the side walls

one scoop Stan's / just about one full scoop of slime. One tablespoon blue glitter.

Front, airs up and it pops on the bead and seals instantly with very little weeping. Lay wheel on side and flip every couple hours. Shaking vigorously rotating wheel.
Sealed!!

Rear, being a new tire, was a little fussy. Took a number of attemps to air up and seal. The issue was at the valve stem and rim interface.Had to loosen the lock nut on the valve stem and push the stem into the rim to get the new tire to seat under the rim wall. Once I got it to hold enough air to spin, I retightened the valve nut and brought the valve stem back into the rim tape to seal. Had to air up a number of times to pressure and spin side ways and shake and rotate. The Ignitor didn't weep on the side walls at all. Seemed to seal tight and holding air.
will see how long the slime/stan's stays liquid.
Tone.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2004)

Any thoughts about using straight "fix-a-flat"?


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## RUNDCM (Sep 16, 2008)

Does any of this really work?


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## Datalogger (Jul 5, 2008)

Yup, that's why we're using it!


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Yes! Tubeless works great, but you have to be meticulous in your setup.

Stans rims are best, but others work with rim strips.
Use soap and a compressor to seat the bead.
Use the home made mix or the Stans/Slime mix. 29er tires might need around 50% more sealant than 26ers.
Let the tire sit on its side for a while then shake per the Stans videos and let it sit on the other side. Repeat. 2 one hour sits per side should do it.

You should end up with a tire that loses less than half psi per day and is way less likely to flat on the trail and is more compliant with less rolling resistance and can run lower pressure. Also, if you use Stans rims you save around 200 grams per tire of rolling mass due to eliminating the tube and not using a rim strip.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Tone No Balone said:


> Rear, being a new tire, was a little fussy. Took a number of attemps to air up and seal. The issue was at the valve stem and rim interface.Had to loosen the lock nut on the valve stem and push the stem into the rim to get the new tire to seat under the rim wall. Once I got it to hold enough air to spin, I retightened the valve nut and brought the valve stem back into the rim tape to seal. Had to air up a number of times to pressure and spin side ways and shake and rotate. The Ignitor didn't weep on the side walls at all. Seemed to seal tight and holding air.
> will see how long the slime/stan's stays liquid.
> Tone.


Tony, I have to do the same with my Stan's standard valve stems, loosen the lock nut and push them up into the tire. I crank them back down after I get the bead seated and before inflation. I noticed that my Mike C built wheels have the Olympic valve stems with a smaller rubber head and do not interfere with seating; the wheels I built I used the standard stem, and need to loosen it first.

I love the Ignitor rear, seals quick and easy. Only other ones that seal so simply are Ardent and Mtn. King.


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## wycough (Mar 9, 2008)

Should this homebrew be pretty watery? Or is thick to medium consistancy? My ratios are correct, but it seems very thin and watery. Questioning the sealing properties?

Tires seem to be sealed very well around the bead, however.


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## cronic (Apr 27, 2008)

yourdaguy said:


> Yes! Tubeless works great, but you have to be meticulous in your setup.
> 
> Stans rims are best, but others work with rim strips.
> Use soap and a compressor to seat the bead.
> ...


ok, I have a 29 wheel set coming with stans arch rims. Am I going to have to constantly add air to a properly sealed tubeless setup.


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## Datalogger (Jul 5, 2008)

wycough said:


> Should this homebrew be pretty watery? Or is thick to medium consistancy? My ratios are correct, but it seems very thin and watery. Questioning the sealing properties?
> 
> Tires seem to be sealed very well around the bead, however.


Mine is about a medium consistency. Stans is really watery, as you add Slime it gets thicker.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

cronic said:


> ok, I have a 29 wheel set coming with stans arch rims. Am I going to have to constantly add air to a properly sealed tubeless setup.


I have three wheel sets tubeless, two Arch / yellow tape / notubes stems, one (Sun High Rider = 29er RhynoLIte) converted with Stans rims strips. They all loose 4-6 pounds a week. I check my tires every time before a ride and always have for years with tubes, so no big deal to me.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

*Of course*



cronic said:


> ok, I have a 29 wheel set coming with stans arch rims. Am I going to have to constantly add air to a properly sealed tubeless setup.


Just like with tubes.


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

50% more sealent for a 29" tire that is 10% longer? Are they so much more flat-prone, to you?


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## cronic (Apr 27, 2008)

So what is the consensus amount of concoction for 29" 2.2" tire? 2oz, 2.5oz, or 3oz.


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## wycough (Mar 9, 2008)

I used 4oz, but mine seemed kinda watery.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

cronic said:


> So what is the consensus amount of concoction for 29" 2.2" tire? 2oz, 2.5oz, or 3oz.


At 80 grams per 2 oz bottle, I only use one.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

wadester said:


> I've thought about ways to check the sealant level in my tires - but it always requires that you either break the bead or at least completely depressurize the tire, so a small bit of hassle. I've never been good at the "spin&slosh" method. I just run along like a happy camper until I notice that I have to keep pumping the tire up during the ride - go home, open it up, find it dry, fill'er up. Sometimes, if I don't note the pressure dropping I'll roll the bead apart and have to tube it - but that's no biggie once the sealant is dried out.
> 
> With DIY sealant, I notice fewer sealant boogers - but still get'em. Of course, my sealant lasts long time - so by the time I go in there, the boogers are as big as any Stan's boogers I ever saw. Except that they're flourescent green and have rainbow glitter in them. Schweet!


How do you check sealant in tubes? And what do you do when it dries out and you get boogers inside your tube? Use it for ghetto applications the next time? Should I run 26" tubes on my 29er rims for ghetto applications?


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## cronic (Apr 27, 2008)

bsieb said:


> At 80 grams per 2 oz bottle, I only use one.


So 2 oz. weighs 80g. Ouch! If I use 3 oz. I am within 20g of the tube I am replacing. Hmmm, seems like the weight savings argument is kinda a moot point.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*It's all in how you look at it.*



cronic said:


> So 2 oz. weighs 80g. Ouch! If I use 3 oz. I am within 20g of the tube I am replacing. Hmmm, seems like the weight savings argument is kinda a moot point.


The proper way to look at this is in terms of performance. 4oz of sealant gives the same flat resistance as a thornproof tube with 2oz of slime in it. Compare THOSE weights - and then consider that the tubeless setup will have less rolling resistance than the most airweight latex tube - as well as better traction.


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## wycough (Mar 9, 2008)

I ride a steel entry level 29er @ 27lbs. I'm not worried about a couple of ounces. It's the flat resistance I'm after without going to a slime tube. 

The homebrew sealed up good. I'll check out the ride this weekend.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Cloxxki: I did the math and using average sizes and keeping everything the same a 29er is about 11% bigger in volume so I guess you should use 2.22 oz of sealant not 3 as I suggested.


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## esXso (Sep 23, 2008)

Does dried latex build up on the rim and tire over time and can you peel it off easily?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

esXso said:


> Does dried latex build up on the rim and tire over time


No



esXso said:


> and can you peel it off easily?


Irrelevant, given that it does not build up.


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## Tone No Balone (Dec 11, 2004)

It's the ride quality of the tire I'm after. At 30/32# the tire rolls over the stutter bumps nicely. A tubed tire will bounce where the Stanz'd tire will roll and absorb the terrain. I think the weight factor is just about a push.
I just got out for a ride Friday afternoon, the first one since I installed a new rear and re installed a front tire 50/50 Stan's/Slime for almost 4 oz per tire. They sat in the bike stand for about five days and lost a littl air. The front still giving me a little problem, side wall seep but after my ride yesterday, It looks like it's holding air. On the rear, I opened the valve to air up with the floor pump and some Slime jizzed out and sorta clogged the valve stem a little so I pumped more air and it seemed to clear the stem!
I think I am over the hump of installation and beginning to complete the deal....errr...seal.


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## steelbike (Jan 6, 2004)

1 oz=28.6g so 2 oz is approx. 60g.

Sorry, I see that you're mentioning fl oz which is around 40g/oz.



bsieb said:


> At 80 grams per 2 oz bottle, I only use one.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

*Exactly*



cronic said:


> So 2 oz. weighs 80g. Ouch! If I use 3 oz. I am within 20g of the tube I am replacing. Hmmm, seems like the weight savings argument is kinda a moot point.


Some of the new ust tires, like the Geax Barro Race are pretty light, like 740 grams. If no sealant is required, it's the equivalent of a 660 gr tire with 80 gr of sealant. Starts to look interesting considering the thicker sidewalls at little or no weight penalty. At this point it's all speculation, as I haven't tried a true ust tire yet, and there may be other issues involved.

I am going to try a ust tire soon, though, for sure. I've heard you can rubber cement the beads and run completely dry.


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## duke of kent (Jan 30, 2008)

Are there any materials that I could substitute for antifreeze?

The potentially nasty side effects, particularly in a neighborhood with lots of little kids around, are something I'd like to avoid.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Some use windshield washer fluid instead.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Propylene glycol is considered "non toxic", as I believe has been mentioned, but may cause mixing problems. Seems to form some nasty corrosive compounds when exposed to heat and air, doesn't sound like a good around bikes or other living things.

Seems windshield washer fluid is poisonous also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifreeze

The best solution would be to not have to add anything to run tubless, ie true UST.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

duplicate post ???


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## Kyle2834 (May 4, 2007)

Make the concoction effective enough so that you don't have to top it off often. Propylene glycol is very important in making the slime/latex mix last. It's a thin liquid carrier, so it seeps through pores that latex/slime are slower to get through. I found my tires would seal much more quickly and effectively with the PG added. Allows me to get away with using less sealant overall.

much thanks to the people who contributed to an effective system!


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## BrandonMiller (Mar 29, 2006)

50/50 stans/slime 

How do you know how long it lasts, do you guys dismount and check it? It has been quite a while on mine but I don't really ride that often

BTW I have a rear tubeless and a front tubed - the tubed loses air faster than the tubeless


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## Wilhelm6 (Sep 23, 2005)

A new foaming latex formula sealant "caffélatex" that is claimed to better seal sidewall punctures and last longer was shown by the Italian manufacturer EFFETTO MARIPOSA (https://www.effettomariposa.com) at NAHBS 2009 (https://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2009/shows/nahmbs09/?id=results/nahmbs096):


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

This makes sense. Bubbles are caused by surface tension in liquids. Anti-foam agents release surface tension. In tire sealant application, increasing surface tension would increase foaming.


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## pushinpixels (Jul 4, 2007)

*Sparkle size*

I went to the art supply store looking for 3 sizes of sparkles for my tubeless setup. The picture is of the largest sparkles. Do you think these are too big? Will it plug the presta valve?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Those are probably too big to plug most leaks because when a corner gets in the hole, too much will be sticking out and get washed away when the rest of the sealant package floats by.

When you go to the art supply store ask for "glitter" not sparkles. I can send a picture if you need one. They had lots of glitter and I grabbed 3 different particle sizes.


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## Kyle2834 (May 4, 2007)

Materials I've seen suggested for adding to mixture:

glitter of varying particle sizes
somewhat finely grounded tube
a fibrous cloth or paper towel
pepper
anything relatively fine that won't dissolve in the mixture


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Funny you should suggest ground tube. I pulled all the little molding nipples off a tire and threw them in the mixture too. They looked like little rubber plugs to me.


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## pushinpixels (Jul 4, 2007)

Thanks for the reply. I'll try a different store and use glitter only.
Purple - medium
Red - fine
Light Blue - extra fine


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

Is the glitter good enough to solve a 5mm long sidewall tear (that doesn't go all the way through)?

I have patched it air tight with the glitter, but I'm wondering how trailworthy it is, based on a few scoops of stans, 1 scoop slime and a toss of glitter.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Padre said:


> Is the glitter good enough to solve a 5mm long sidewall tear (that doesn't go all the way through)?
> 
> I have patched it air tight with the glitter, but I'm wondering how trailworthy it is, based on a few scoops of stans, 1 scoop slime and a toss of glitter.


A similar experience that I had (pics on first page) wouldn't hold much air - and I wound up tubing it, and putting in a patch at the house. If your tear is holding air, and not seeping - I wouldn't worry a whole lot, but keep an eye on it. The fix is to tear it down and patch it whenever you get ready.


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## Padre (Jan 6, 2004)

wadester said:


> A similar experience that I had (pics on first page) wouldn't hold much air - and I wound up tubing it, and putting in a patch at the house. If your tear is holding air, and not seeping - I wouldn't worry a whole lot, but keep an eye on it. The fix is to tear it down and patch it whenever you get ready.


Noted. Thanks.


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## cronic (Apr 27, 2008)

I did a 50/50 mix of stans and slime auto today and it worked very well in my first tubeless setup. I will report back on how long it lasts. Thanks guys for the help.


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## cronic (Apr 27, 2008)

Ok, after a day no loss in pressure. Yeah! But, I think I may have put too much sealant in the tires. I initially went with 1.75 stan's scoops on the first tire and noticed that I didn't hear anything sloshing around when I was doing the shake thing. So I opened one side and added another scoop. I also went with 2.75 scoops on the rear tire. Problem is that they are sealed but you can still hear sealant sloshing around is you take the tire of and shake it. Is this normal? If not, how can I get the "extra" out without breaking the bead?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The only way out is through the valve stem. Unless you are racing for money, I would just leave it. A little extra sealant won't hurt and only weighs a few ounces.


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## Deme Moore (Jun 15, 2007)

You want the extra. It rolls around and squirts out to seal when you nail a puncture.


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## Jdub (Jan 12, 2004)

wadester said:


> Since 5/04 I been running:
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 1 part Slime tubeless
> 1 part cheap antifreeze
> ...


After running out of Stans, I decided to take the plunge and make up some with wadester's formula. Probably spent in the neighborhood of $25 - $30 in supplies ($8.50 for 24oz of slime, $8 for bottle of antifreeze, $12ish for the latex mold, couple bucks for glitter) but it will easily make up 3 or 4x as much solution as a bottle of Stans. Seems a little more watery than I would have guessed, but I would say similar consistency to Stans.

Have front tire running straight Stans, and the back will be running the "secret sauce" so should have a good, controlled test of Stans vs homebrew under conditions that will be held the same. Also should be a good test to see if they seal similarly since they'll both be subjected to the same riding terrain, which of late has meant lots of goatheads.

Thanks for the formula and tips.


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## Davidcopperfield (Jan 17, 2007)

kosmo said:


> 1 Stans - 1 Slime Tubeless - 1 Bonty Super Juice. Seems good.


I usedonce a Hutchinson fluid in the tube and it sealed the Schraeder valve !!


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## wycough (Mar 9, 2008)

If using Hobby Lobby, google "hobby lobby coupon". They still have 40% coupon off any one item for the latex mold builder. It was very hard to find in the store and the employees were unfamiliar with locating it.


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## racerdave (May 12, 2007)

wycough said:


> If using Hobby Lobby, google "hobby lobby coupon". They still have 40% coupon off any one item for the latex mold builder. It was very hard to find in the store and the employees were unfamiliar with locating it.


Amen to that. It took me about 10 minutes each with 2 employees and they couldn't find it, then I searched for another 20 minutes and finally found it. It was in a corner of the store on the very lowest shelf. Not an easy find at all.


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## GreenLightGo (Oct 24, 2006)

Wilhelm6 said:


> A new foaming latex formula sealant "caffélatex" that is claimed to better seal sidewall punctures and last longer was shown by the Italian manufacturer EFFETTO MARIPOSA (https://www.effettomariposa.com) at NAHBS 2009 (https://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2009/shows/nahmbs09/?id=results/nahmbs096):


I'm interested in this stuff? Anyone come across this in the Euro mags or forums?

https://www.cantitoeroad.com/catalog/index.php?manufacturers_id=13
https://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/introducing-caffelatex-by-effetto-mariposa/


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## maxtheheathen (Feb 27, 2007)

Looks like you can actually buy this stuff now.

http://cantitoeroad.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=117

It's pricey, about 50% more than stan's. $30 for a liter.

It's got me thinking though, you can buy synthetic latex binders for adding to mortar, they're about the consistency of tire sealant. I've got some around from a tile job, I'm gonna try adding some glitter and a surfactant, test it on some old tires.


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## bigtallred (Jun 6, 2007)

*2 questions*

1. Anybody tried the ATV/Mower version of slime? You can see big 'ol chunks in there.

2. Anybody who is just doing Stans + Slime and nothing else think this combo gets a little too viscous? I am guessing this is why a lot of folks are using wiper fluid or anti freeze

Plus, I really want this to get bumped back up to the top so people can report on long term success of their brews. Still trying to figure mine out.


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## Datalogger (Jul 5, 2008)

I use ATV/Mower Slime and Stans in a nearly 50/50 mix. Yes it is thick. This summer when temperatures really climb, I imagine the Stans would evaporate first so I may add more of that and change my mixture to 60/40.


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## Village (Sep 8, 2008)

I found this guy in my front tire after 5 months of using one scoop of Stan's and one scoop of ATV Tubeless Slime, plus about two tablespoons of 0.7mm purple glitter. It sounded like a bouncy ball was stuck in my tire as I rode slowly! Surprisingly there was still 1oz or so of fluid left in the tire. As you can see much of the glitter made its way to the tire bead. I don't know if that's bad or not.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Village said:


> I found this guy in my front tire after 5 months of using one scoop of Stan's and one scoop of ATV Tubeless Slime, plus about two tablespoons of 0.7mm purple glitter. It sounded like a bouncy ball was stuck in my tire as I rode slowly! Surprisingly there was still 1oz or so of fluid left in the tire. As you can see much of the glitter made its way to the tire bead. I don't know if that's bad or not.


Seeing as the tire bead is one of the main things that the sealant has to seal - that's not so bad. But it does speak to the type of hole glitter will seal. We're building sealant with latex - a liquid that will creep into any opening and dry/congeal, but is not that strong. We add slime, which has fibers - that thread thru holes and basically jam enough of themselves into the hole to plug it, or at least make small enough spaces to let the latex finish the job. The rubber chunks add another dimension, as lumps that will fill a bigger hole or at least block it enough for the others to work.

But glitter? It is a flat plate, which is good for slipping into slits like the bead area - or maybe like laying a patch over a hole. I haven't seen any evidence of this flat plate thing yet. The one plug I pulled out of a sidewall cut contained glitter, but it was all lined up with the flow direction, not across it. I'm thinking glitter may not be the next big thing in sealant after all.

Somebody mentioned ground black pepper - which I thought was a joke - but it would have the right shape to plug a hole. Someone else had mentioned silica beads - which sounds like a good way to plug a hole. Have to check'em out.

The foaming thing sounds promising - and I'll ask my chemist friends if they can recommend any hobby grade things that would promote foaming and be compatible with latex and antifreeze.


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## doctorholguin (May 9, 2007)

i don´t use glitter anymore....i noticed that it clogged up with the latex mix badly and did no help sealing punctures...instead, i just went with latex, antifreeze, water, and some sealant from napa auto parts....i also did not like slime because it would squeeze through my sidewalls...what i really liked and noticed is that water helps latex build up the clogs....so my mixture is (in scoops):

Latex: 4
Antifreeze: 1
Water: 2 or 1.5
Napa: 1

I honestly have to say that the napa auto parts sealant might not be of any help, but i just have to get rid of it somehow lol, so as soon, as it is gone, I will not use it anymore...


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## Kyle2834 (May 4, 2007)

doctorholguin said:


> i don´t use glitter anymore....i noticed that it clogged up with the latex mix badly and did no help sealing punctures


Where I ride, (cactus,goatheads,tumbleweeds,thornsthornsthorns) thorn punctures are sealed noticeably quicker and with less sealant leakage if _something_ is used to soupify the mixture. My friends have it worse than me....they weigh more and require higher tire pressures, making it difficult to stop the leakage of sealant if the thorn is particularly nasty.

I'll admit, many could and should get by without it, because it is annoying to work with, but glitter did help me in the north Texas area.


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## Munin2889 (Jun 24, 2006)

wadester said:


> But glitter? It is a flat plate, which is good for slipping into slits like the bead area - or maybe like laying a patch over a hole.


I sent you a pm a while ago, which you answered. It was about the tire blowing off the rim after I re-inflated it because it dropped around 15 psi and this statement has got me thinking.
Maybe glitter is not such a good thing, especially if you have two sets of wheels and you don't check both very often.

My thought is that the glitter, being a very thin plate (as stated) slips into the bead area, more-so if the psi is very low. Glitter doesn't have a very high coefficient of friction, or so I believe, and if too much gets into the bead area, and you re-inflate the tire suddenly, could the glitter's low friction cause the tire to slip it's bead and blow open?

Just a thought, would welcome any ideas.
Den


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## ghawk (Sep 14, 2007)

turbodog said:


> Any thoughts about using straight "fix-a-flat"?


Tried it nasty and did not seem to work too well. Stunk also. Formula was a bit toxic for the bike room and for you.
Straight Stan's here and just replace after a few months when it's molecular construct breakdown makes it less effective and dries out (small price to pay for no flats unless you are really poverty stricken. 1 32 oz last me about a year at about 15 bucks.) Then, just throw away tire when it is worn out with all the dried up garbage. No sidewall seepage, no flats and no fuss. Been doing this for several years now. I will never go back to flats....err tubes. Only thing I might do (if I ever have a hole that will not seal is add some glitter But......
Have to say this was without anything added: 




 )
The caffélatex stuff sounds promising...but after all this time and no flats....welllllllllll
Also, the secret Hooters sauce. https://www.notubes.com/pdf/VN052305.pdf


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## riskitall (Sep 18, 2007)

wadester said:


> Since 5/04 I been running:
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 1 part Slime tubeless
> 1 part cheap antifreeze
> 2 parts water





5titusguy said:


> While your at the craft store getting your Mold Builder pick up some Silica beads. They are used for drying flowers....
> Then you can put some of these tiny balls/pellets in your tire and they seal up tiny and bigger holes,,,, I have not put a micrometer on them but they work well,,, and you buy one bag that will last a life time for $5.


I used WSS & a pinch of Silica for every scoop of WSS I put in the tire & it worked great this past weekend, as i got a hole in the top center of the tire & it sealed up.

Only used this batch for a couple of weeks so far so good.

Also for the price of doing your homebrew you have a ton of extra WSS left over.:thumbsup:


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

riskitall said:


> I used WSS


I'm lost on this acronym.......


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## riskitall (Sep 18, 2007)

slocaus said:


> I'm lost on this acronym.......


Wadesters Secret Sauce


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

riskitall said:


> Wadesters Secret Sauce


I was almost there, since you quoted wadester, but it still does not work for me, at least the middle S. 
Maybe WWS, but it ain't secret no mo..... :devil: Carry on.......


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## Davidcopperfield (Jan 17, 2007)

What about mixing the CaffeLatex with slime and/or Stan's ? Did anyone try?


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## xdtr22 (Nov 20, 2007)

When you guys are talking 1 part this and one part that, how much is a "part"? 1 cup.....2 cups....1 teaspoon.....etc....?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Parts is parts*

As long as the "parts" are all the same amount - you mix what you want for a final amount.

I like to mix with a pint as the "part", so as to use the full pint of latex. It dries out if left in the jar, but once mixed (in a glass jar) it is good to the last drop. Makes 5 pints, and fits in a 80oz pickle jar (pint=16oz, 5 pints = 80oz so it is an almost exact fit)


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

i personally have had extremely good success with running these things called tubes in my tires, i know it sounds crazy but it works. i rarely get flats and it never 'wears out'


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

customfab said:


> i personally have had extremely good success with running these things called tubes in my tires, i know it sounds crazy but it works. i rarely get flats and it never 'wears out'


Kind of like Carbon 29er rims, Eh?


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

yup

the tubes are cheap reliable and clean, the rims are expensive reliable and clean


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Some uf us run tubeless for the better tire compliance with the terrain and lower rolling resistance. Flat protection is just icing on the cake.

Please do not be a troll in this thread. If you like tubes, that is fine, but we do not need an evangelist here, thank you. I run tubes in some bikes, tubeless in others. Personal freedom of choice.


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

customfab said:


> i personally have had extremely good success with running these things called tubes in my tires, i know it sounds crazy but it works. i rarely get flats and it never 'wears out'


Hey Thanks!:thumbsup: 
I had no idea I had the option of running tubes!?! Now why don't you get on a full suspension thread and tell them why you ride a rigid.


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## azpoolguy (Oct 23, 2008)

Customfab- living in the non flat tire capitol of the world you might not be the best to comment on Tubeless brews. I rode in Bend for 15 years and was able to go 4 years once without a flat. 
After moving to the flat tire capitol of the world(Phoenix,AZ). I wasn't able to ride more than 1 mile without a flat. I've been flat free for over a year since going tubeless. Yes the rolling benefits are nice but being able to ride all day,all month,all year without a flat is priceless.


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## dtheo (Sep 18, 2005)

What should I add if my goop is drying up too fast? 
I got a good 4 months on my first recipe then I added glitter and barely went a month until I had a big latex ball and barely a coating of sludge (which didn't fix the holes) left.

DT


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

i was just being a wise ass, so simmer down charlie brown. i honestly would love to see somebody validate the tire compliance and lower rolling resistance cause i think it is pure marketing BS.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

dtheo said:


> What should I add if my goop is drying up too fast?
> I got a good 4 months on my first recipe then I added glitter and barely went a month until I had a big latex ball and barely a coating of sludge (which didn't fix the holes) left.
> 
> DT


You can use whatever liquid component in your original brew, or add something that does not evaporate. Or just add a couple more ounces of your brew.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I don't need validation, I can feel it. If you can't feel it then that is your loss. If you are going to say that I am easily fooled I think not because I do roll down testing on everything that effects performance and the rolling resistance is real and I can feel the traction on the trails.


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## BumpityBump (Mar 9, 2008)

customfab said:


> i was just being a wise ass, so simmer down charlie brown. i honestly would love to see somebody validate the tire compliance and lower rolling resistance cause i think it is pure marketing BS.


I heard rubber was overrated. You should get yourself one of these:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Several of the pro teams went tubeless for Paris-Roubaix this year:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/photos/2009/tech/features/paris_roubaix109/P-R_FDJ_sealant

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php...eatures/paris_roubaix109/P-R_FDJ_spare_wheels

If these guys are doing it, I can guarantee you that they have tested it and it is better for this race than running tubes. Which the cobbles that this race runs over are similar to the small rocks we encounter on trails.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> I don't need validation, I can feel it. If you can't feel it then that is your loss. If you are going to say that I am easily fooled I think not because I do roll down testing on everything that effects performance and the rolling resistance is real and I can feel the traction on the trails.


He is an egomaniacal, passive aggressive.....








.... *tool*. Spreading the tubeless hate all over the site. Put him in your *twit*, uh, Ignore list...

Do not feed the *troll*, uh, _*tool*_,,,,,


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

as much of a techno phobe as i may sound i am pretty open to most ideas in cycling. i just can't justify the hassle of tubeless for my prefer pursuers and locations


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Then stop trying to brow beat everyone here into accepting your narrow minded attitude.....


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## Datalogger (Jul 5, 2008)

customfab said:


> as much of a techno phobe as i may sound i am pretty open to most ideas in cycling. i just can't justify the hassle of tubeless for my prefer pursuers and locations


Life is all about perspective. Tubeless might not seem worth it on your trails, but to many people in this thread, the pros far outweigh the cons.

Myself, I love no longer needing to remove thorns from the previous days ride that have flattened my tire overnight and patch tubes in order to ride again.

*Suum cuique.* :thumbsup:


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

customfab said:


> i was just being a wise ass, so simmer down charlie brown. i honestly would love to see somebody validate the tire compliance and lower rolling resistance cause i think it is pure marketing BS.


the tire compliance part is pretty logical actually. in a tubed tire you have not only extra rubber in the form of a tube adding a little bit of stiffness, but friction between the tube and tire every time you hit a bump. it's a small amount of movement, but there is a large amount of friction. so it's not necessarily the tire becoming more compliant, but the tire setup as a whole.

i don't know if the rolling resistance part has ever been proven.

i still run tubes, but will be trying tubeless in one of my wheelsets within the next week or two.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

You can hear the difference also, the tire sounds lighter as it rolls over things.


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## daniel58 (Sep 27, 2008)

*Stan's Sealant*

Found amazing you tube video of Stan's torture test where he ran a tire through its paces.

Anyone try a batch of Stan's which basically as I understand is a liquide based latex model builder solution that is water/ammonia soluable based with something that would have a tendency to keep the formulation from drying out over time like something inert and non-reactive like good old fashioned mineral oil; as that should keep things from drying out probably for around a year.

Stan's formulation uses some kind of force activation additive that causes it to seal punctures at the tire puncture site but the problem as I understand is it loses the water moisture over two month period of time through the tires carcass.

Please feel free to report your results and feedback from out their in the field with your particular setups


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## customfab (Jun 8, 2008)

bikerfish said:


> Hey Thanks!:thumbsup:
> I had no idea I had the option of running tubes!?! Now why don't you get on a full suspension thread and tell them why you ride a rigid.


although my current ride is a Ti kona WITH front suspension i had a full carbon fully suspended ibis last summer. although i probably wont buy another FS bike i will never have one without a suspension fork.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

just mixed up my first ever batch of tubeless brew. i used:

@1 part latex mold builder
@1 part water
@1part slime auto
@ 1 part or less propylene glycol antifreeze(sierra brand).

i live in a house with a lot of dogs who will lick anything once, so ethylene glycol in something that could end up all over the place was not an option.

as per someones instructions earlier, i mixed the latex, water and slime first, then added the PG antifreeze, and didn't notice any lumping or latex hardening. it's about light milkshake consistancy. i started out trying to measure each part with a water bottle, but gave up after adding the latex and just kind of eyeballed it. 

aired up a tubeless downhill tire on a non-tubeless trials rim with stock rim strip and a valve stem cut out of an old tube. aired right up and is holding so far. hasn't been long though. i'll update more tomorrow.


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## Ira (Feb 24, 2008)

Anyone have any good sources for synthetic latex that would be suitable for a tubeless brew? I am thinking of trying to make a foaming dealio like Caffelatex and don't want to use an ammonia based substance...

I have been using the above homebrew recipe for a while and noticed some corrosion on my tires and rims...that was not there before...

Thanks


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## jbflyfshr (Jul 24, 2006)

sean salach said:


> aired up a tubeless downhill tire on a non-tubeless trials rim with stock rim strip and a valve stem cut out of an old tube. aired right up and is holding so far. hasn't been long though. i'll update more tomorrow.


How did you use the 'old tube'?

I have seen people post this before but I couldn't figure out if they glued it in or used a different method to keep it in place/air tight...


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## marty_hd (Oct 26, 2005)

Davidcopperfield said:


> What about mixing the CaffeLatex with slime and/or Stan's ? Did anyone try?


yes, but not by choice and due to a poor choice in tires...
Wanted to mount WTB Mutano Raptors 700cx44 on my monster cross.

Rims: Salsa Delgado Cross with Stan's rim strip










The tires were brand new. I mounted the front tire and tried to air it up with a compressor. It would not seat, soapy water did not help. But I was so anxious to get on with the project so I decided to just squish in the CaffeLatex and do it.










When I blasted some air in the CaffeLatex blasted out of the rim bead and got all over the place, but then it finally "sproinged" onto the bead and all was good.










I was covered in CaffeLatex dots and stringy rubbery crap was in my hair.

So I decided to mount the rear tire with a tube and let it sit overnight to let the tire conform to the rim. The next day I pulled the tube, mounted the rims trip and tire and injected CaffeLatex through the valve (core was not removed).










This went badly, all the sealant was blown out of the bead/rim interface. I added more CaffeLatex and blew that out again. Seems like CaffeLatex does not seal huge holes because it is too viscous. Well, you can't really expect it too.

So I washed the tire, rim strip, and added a spooge of Slime Tube Sealant. In the pic you can see the Slime running down the rim and oozin gout of the tire even though there is no air in it.










I aired up the tire with the compressor and now blew green sh!t all over the place, but I was already rubbery and stringy so it really didn't matter. The tire finally seated but was sizzling air out of the rim/bead interface. Slime was too gooey to coat the inside of the tire quickly despite lots of shaking.










I added some CaffeLatex, shook the tire, and almost instantly the rim/bead sealed and stopped leaking air. Soapy water confirmed the seal.

So I added a small spoogelet of Slime Tube Sealant to a water bottle. It was too thick to coat the bottle, even with shaking. It just kind of stuck to the bottle. A little bit of CaffeLatex was added, and then it combined with the slime to make a layer of green foam that coated the bottle.










It has been a few days and the tires have lost no noticeable pressure.

More on this here: https://www.twentyniner.ch/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1794


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

jbflyfshr said:


> How did you use the 'old tube'?
> 
> I have seen people post this before but I couldn't figure out if they glued it in or used a different method to keep it in place/air tight...


i cut about 1" diameter around the valve stem. inserted the valve stem into the rim. threaded the locknut down on it, cinched it down tight, then added another one to hold it on there good. seems to have worked like a charm. the photos i've seen on some mail order sites of the stans valves are basically the same thing. some of the photos i've seen you can even see the slightly jagged edges from where it was cut out.


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

I have had really good luck with Flows with yellow tape, Bonty XDX, and this brew:
1 part Latex Mold Builder
1 part Tubeless Slime
1 part windex

I had a little trouble sealing the valves, so I put some gasket maker around them and that helped once the sealant hit it. I added a tuna can's worth to each tire. The front leaks a little more than the rear, but only a few PSI a week. Very manageable. Seated with a floor pump.


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## jbflyfshr (Jul 24, 2006)

Cheers sean!!

Clears that up. THKS!


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## grrrah (Mar 26, 2004)

32 oz of Stans + 24 oz of Slime (ATV/Mower)

(because thats what it comes in)

Whats in my tires has worked well. The stuff thats not in the tires makes a nice looking splatter pattern all over my garage wall.


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## finger51 (Jul 21, 2006)

Those fibers in slime look an awful lot like dryer lint. Gonna be giving that a try on my next round.


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## greyspoke (Apr 30, 2007)

Apologies if this has been noted before, I am just about to have a second go at tubeless, on my first go about three years ago I noted that Stan's patent for tubeless sealant used cornmeal (polenta to us Europeans) along with the latex/ water/ antifreeze. I might try oatmeal this time round. All that soluble fibre in oats must be as good for your tyres as they are for your digestive system...

Also, if you are having trouble with sidewall pinholes, paint the inside of the tyre with a couple of coats of undiluted latex solution.


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## DirtDummy (Aug 22, 2005)

wadester said:


> Since 5/04 I been running:
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 1 part Slime tubeless
> 1 part cheap antifreeze
> 2 parts water


I'm goin ghetto this weekend using WSS recipe. Seems that glitter may not add any benefit. Thoughts from users regarding the benefit or lack thereof in using glitter? Thanks


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

i have no input on the glitter, but just thought i would update that three weeks later and no air added and my tire is still sealed up fine. plenty of riding, no burping.

WSS is the bomb.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

wadester said:


> Cloxxki got it: art supply stores, or the internets. Hobby Lobby is my usual source, but here's one: http://www.artmolds.com/product_details.cfm?product_id=177&page=0&cat_name=Latex Rubber&u_cat=28
> And more important, the Material Safety Data Sheet - which tells you it is latex and ammonia (and a bit of water, but they don't actually say that): http://www.artmolds.com/pdf/ACF5DCA.PDF
> 
> I've brought spokeprep back to life by adding ammonia to it, and you might be able to do that to your LMB. But for $11/pt I would just spring for another jar. Once mixed into sealant, it hasn't degraded on me - stored in a glass jar inside the house.
> ...


You don't want anything with ammonia in it. It is highly corrosive to aluminum. There was a recent article on VeloNews about this that showed corroded rims.


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

DirtDummy said:


> I'm goin ghetto this weekend using WSS recipe. Seems that glitter may not add any benefit. Thoughts from users regarding the benefit or lack thereof in using glitter? Thanks


I did glitter in my first batch which is now just about gone. I will be leaving it out on my next batch. I couldn't really see any instances where I felt it was really doing any good, and when I did a tire swap I felt the glitter was making it harder for me to get the bead re-sealed once the tires were mounted. Seems like the glitter stuck on the edge of the bead just made extra spaces for air to escape. That's my theory anyway, the last batch was also my 1st batch so I don't have a great deal of personal experience to pull from.


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## William_Cannon (May 5, 2009)

I'm going to try ghetto tubeless using the tube/homebrew method. Any changes to your WSS recipe?

1 part Latex mold builder
1 part Slime tubeless
1 part cheap antifreeze
2 parts water

Thanks in advance,
Will

Oh and could someone advise which slime to get? Is "tubeless slime", the tube sealant you pick up at the bike shop?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Tubeless slime-not the slime for tube tires. Much as I hate Wal-Mart they sell it by the gallon for very cheep. The kind you want has little black chunks in it. The kind you don't want is all green.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

*Article on ammonia in sealants causing aluminum corrosion*

http://www.velonews.com/article/89375


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

William_Cannon said:


> I'm going to try ghetto tubeless using the tube/homebrew method. Any changes to your WSS recipe?
> 
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 1 part Slime tubeless
> ...


No change to the basic WSS recipe. Tubeless slime is the one with the black flecks of ground up rubber in it - listed for automotive use. Glitter doesn't seem to add value, so that's out. I want to try the silica beads that someone mentioned previously, but haven't.

Good practice finds that you do not add the antifreeze directly to the latex, since that seems to cause coagulation. My bet is slime/one water, mix well. Latex, mix well. then antifreeze/other water. I mix in a jug that just barely fits my quantity, so mixing the last bit is difficult.


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## Tone No Balone (Dec 11, 2004)

I'm not completely sold on the 50/50 stan's slime mixture as the front Prowler is weeping out either the bead and or side wall regulary. The rear ignitor is dry and sealed. Can't complain too much because they are both holding air for the most part, just seepage. It's all cosmetic for the most part. Guess the slime will keep the stan's from drying and may lenghten the time before having to re-stanz my tires. I dunno.....
Stanz alone worked fine for me as far as I'm concerned.
Tone.


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## Village (Sep 8, 2008)

I came to the same conclusion in the last couple weeks on the 50/50 mix. Both my tubeless 29ers got new tires recently. I filled one wheelset with 1:1 Stan's and Tubeless Slime. The other was filled 2:1 Stan's and Slime. The 1:1 set has been weeping constantly, even dripping onto my floor. The 2:1 mix however is completely dry and hasn't lost more than a pound of pressure in two weeks. I'm going to open up the 1:1 set and dilute with Stan's this afternoon.


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## Schmucker (Aug 23, 2007)

MikeDee said:


> http://www.velonews.com/article/89375


Not a real issue. Anodized rims will be protected for the most part unless you really scratch them up, but with tubeless conversions and Stan's rims a strip is on the bottom, thus the rim is not exposed to the sealant. I really don't think it's all that reactive with aluminum anyways.


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## azpoolguy (Oct 23, 2008)

After trying Stans/Slime/Superjuice in veries mixes its still drying out in 3 months here. 
I'm going to mix my first batch of home brew tonight. I have all the ingredients. I just have one question. I looked through all the anti-freeze at the auto parts store and could only find O'Reilly antifreeze/coolant that was Ethylene Glycol but it also has Diethylene Glycol and other additives for corrosion inhibitors and defoaming. Will this work? Or should I look for something else?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Tone No Balone said:


> I'm not completely sold on the 50/50 stan's slime mixture as the front Prowler is weeping out either the bead and or side wall regulary. The rear ignitor is dry and sealed. Can't complain too much because they are both holding air for the most part, just seepage. It's all cosmetic for the most part. Guess the slime will keep the stan's from drying and may lenghten the time before having to re-stanz my tires. I dunno.....
> Stanz alone worked fine for me as far as I'm concerned.
> Tone.


Same here Tony, with 2 Stans to 1 tubeless Slime, my Prowler, Rampages, WW255lt, and Ignitor weeped, Prowler the worst, and it would leave a puddle on the floor. Only the Mountain King and Ardent did not weep with that mix. I am back to straight Stans for now, and the weeping has stopped.

The Caffee Latex looks very good from the posts I have seen. I was impressed with one guy who had Stans, too big a hole for it to seal, added the Caffee and it sealed.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

azpoolguy said:


> After trying Stans/Slime/Superjuice in veries mixes its still drying out in 3 months here.
> I'm going to mix my first batch of home brew tonight. I have all the ingredients. I just have one question. I looked through all the anti-freeze at the auto parts store and could only find O'Reilly antifreeze/coolant that was Ethylene Glycol but it also has Diethylene Glycol and other additives for corrosion inhibitors and defoaming. Will this work? Or should I look for something else?


it'll probably work, but ethylene glycol is very dangerous for pets. it's dangerous for people too, but we're less likely to ingest it. and if a person does... well... natural selection... if you add the propylene glycol to the mix last, it works fine, and PG is signifigantly less toxic. so i reccomend the pg.:thumbsup:


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## azpoolguy (Oct 23, 2008)

Home brew is mixed and in my tires. I used the ATV/Lawnmower Slime from the auto parts store. It looks to have the same size and chunk quantity as the tubeless Slime. I mixed everything in a plastic bucket and added the antifreeze last. It looks good and it made 2qts. with enough left over to top off my tires.
Now time will tell how long it lasts. We have already set records for the most days over a 100 degrees for May!


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Propylene glycol does not work (or at least is reported in other posts not to work). That is why you are supposed to get the "old type" antifreeze. Old Antifreeze is Ethylene Glycol and it is a green color. It is harmful if ingested. That is seldom a problem for humans, but dogs seem to like the flavor and will easily drink enough to die so if you spill some, wipe it up. Most other animals such as cats do not find it appealing so the problem is mainly with dogs.

Sean Salach: are you saying that PG works but that you have to add it last? The fact of adding it last might mean that what you get is not so much an emulsion/solution but a suspension. The test is that I can leave a jar mixed sealer sitting for a month and nothing seperates out. In other words all the chemicals are totally in solution and that would be necessary for it to work correctly. Have you mixed PG and had a stable mixture? Or does it tend to seperate out over time? This is probably why Stan's dries out over 3 months time. It is more of a suspension in that if Stans sits even for a day, the laytex tends to settle to the bottom. I would be interested in knowing for sure that PG works as well as EG.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> Propylene glycol does not work (or at least is reported in other posts not to work). That is why you are supposed to get the "old type" antifreeze. Old Antifreeze is Ethylene Glycol and it is a green color. It is harmful if ingested. That is seldom a problem for humans, but dogs seem to like the flavor and will easily drink enough to die so if you spill some, wipe it up. Most other animals such as cats do not find it appealing so the problem is mainly with dogs.
> 
> Sean Salach: are you saying that PG works but that you have to add it last? The fact of adding it last might mean that what you get is not so much an emulsion/solution but a suspension. The test is that I can leave a jar mixed sealer sitting for a month and nothing seperates out. In other words all the chemicals are totally in solution and that would be necessary for it to work correctly. Have you mixed PG and had a stable mixture? Or does it tend to seperate out over time? This is probably why Stan's dries out over 3 months time. It is more of a suspension in that if Stans sits even for a day, the laytex tends to settle to the bottom. I would be interested in knowing for sure that PG works as well as EG.


i haven't touched my container of mix, which has @ 1 part pg antifreeze, since i mixed it up and converted that one tire. it is still mixed as well as the minute i did it. there has been no seperation and no congealing. i haven't added air to the tire i converted and it is still holding.

so *PROPYLENE GLYCOL DOES WORK!* (in bold and caps to make it noticeable only because you said it doesn't.):thumbsup:


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

just checked my post, it was "three weeks" ago according to mtbr. i'll go get photos.


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

regarding the toxicity of ethylene glycol: as little as three tablespoons can kill a 22 lb dog. ref: https://www.petplace.com/dogs/ethylene-glycol-toxicosis-in-dogs/page1.aspx

photos of my mix with propylene glycol after a little over three weeks.

components(+ water)


















mix, after sitting in container, unshaken(unshook?) for three weeks. no seperation.



















the kung fu gorilla setup it's been in for the entire time:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

This is good new information in the ongoing quest for the perfect sealant. Good work!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

sean salach said:


> i haven't touched my container of mix, which has @ 1 part pg antifreeze, since i mixed it up and converted that one tire. it is still mixed as well as the minute i did it. there has been no seperation and no congealing. i haven't added air to the tire i converted and it is still holding.
> 
> so *PROPYLENE GLYCOL DOES WORK!* (in bold and caps to make it noticeable only because you said it doesn't.):thumbsup:


When I had the fail batch, it was not the milky green color - the latex looked like egg drop soup strings in a clear flourescent green base.

And HEY! what container is that you're mixing in?? Capacity and material?


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

http://www.rubbermaid.com/rubbermaid/product/product.jhtml?prodId=HPProd210002

rubbermaid 1 gal mixermate. with 1 gallon of fluid in there there is enough room left over to shake it up. i bought mine at wallyworld. get's some bad reviews on that site, none of which are applicable to storing tubeless sealant.


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## Velobike (Jun 23, 2007)

This is a fascinating thread. I love DIY bike stuff. 

I'm thinking of trying tubeless, but I don't like the idea of all the mixtures unless there's no option.

SO before I venture into these sticky waters, are there any tubeless tyres that do not require these goos? 

And what happens if you get a flat on the trail - can you re-inflate with a handpump, or do you have to stick a tube in?

The latter is my main concern, because the weight saving is negated if I have to carry a tube - patches are fine


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

UST tires don't require "goo" but you would have to have UST rims and UST tires. UST Rims and Tires are generally very heavy. If you get a flat on the trail, you can reinflate with a hand pump since if it is a slow leak that won't seal, you can just keep adding air. The tire would not generally dismount from the rim edge. If you do have to put a tube in, then you could obviously inflate with a hand pump.

I don't understand the part about not carrying a tube-do you not carry a tube now? If not, what happens when your tube gets a big hole in it? Also, most carry a 26 tube as it is lighter and will easily stretch to 29 and also it lets you help your 26er buddy.


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## Davidcopperfield (Jan 17, 2007)

Caffelatex works fine with Slime What about fixing them all three- what proportions? 2/4 Stan's, 1/4 Slime and 1/4 Caffelatex?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Davidcopperfield said:


> Caffelatex works fine with Slime What about fixing them all three- what proportions? 2/4 Stan's, 1/4 Slime and 1/4 Caffelatex?


What do you think adding Slime and Stans would be an additional benefit that Caffee Latex does not provide?


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## William_Cannon (May 5, 2009)

wadester said:


> No change to the basic WSS recipe. Tubeless slime is the one with the black flecks of ground up rubber in it - listed for automotive use. Glitter doesn't seem to add value, so that's out. I want to try the silica beads that someone mentioned previously, but haven't.
> 
> Good practice finds that you do not add the antifreeze directly to the latex, since that seems to cause coagulation. My bet is slime/one water, mix well. Latex, mix well. then antifreeze/other water. I mix in a jug that just barely fits my quantity, so mixing the last bit is difficult.


Thanks, I used the WSS recipe except I used ATV/Mower Slime which has more chunks. I'm hoping it's enough chunky matter so I don't have to add anything else. I did look at silica beads, but I thought they seemed pretty big. I'm having some issues seating my tire so it may be a little while before I can report back.

Thanks again,
WC


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

My Stan's dried up in less than 2 months. 
Time to try the WSS. I got me the latex and slime, but have a question obout the Antifreeze.

I have a bottle of RV antifreeze for the septic tanks and all. 
It says is contains the PE.

Will this work out?


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## azpoolguy (Oct 23, 2008)

I believe EG works the best but I'm not the expert. Read back a few posts and there is some info about PG vs. EG.


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## cycleboy (Mar 10, 2008)

I'm going to make up some WSS to convert the new bike over once I get it.

In case people are looking for a source, Michael's craft store has mold builder - I paid $15 for a pint yesterday.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I don't think anybody has tried RV plumbing antifreeze. You would be the first.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

craigshaf said:


> My Stan's dried up in less than 2 months.
> Time to try the WSS. I got me the latex and slime, but have a question obout the Antifreeze.
> 
> I have a bottle of RV antifreeze for the septic tanks and all.
> ...


I looked up RV plumbing antifreeze - what it is, is 25-30% Propylene Glycol mixed with water. If you use this stuff you don't need 2 parts water - just 3 parts RVPAF.

And let us know how it mixed up.


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

Thanks! I'll be mixing it up this coming weekend. 
Pinched yesterday at Annadale - man I hate tubes...


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## William_Cannon (May 5, 2009)

Here is my 2 week report on the WSS:
- I'm running the WSS on ghetto tubeless WTB Weirwolves.
- I'm holding air pretty well, but do have to pump up the tires a bit after about a week.
- Weirwolves have a radial pattern of pinholes on the sidewalls that repeat themselves every inch or so. I've been oozing through those holes and can't seem to get them to seal. I've laid the tires on their sides multiple times without success.


Any advice? I just ordered the RACE versions of the Weirwolf and Rear Velociraptor. Hopefully those tires won't have this issue.


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

wadester said:


> I looked up RV plumbing antifreeze - what it is, is 25-30% Propylene Glycol mixed with water. If you use this stuff you don't need 2 parts water - just 3 parts RVPAF.
> 
> And let us know how it mixed up.


I mixed it up Friday evening and remounted my Rampage 29x2.35. Mounted up pretty easily with a floor pump. Big tear right down the center bead of the tire. It sealed the hole up. Took it out for a beating today and it held air really well. Saw a couple of spots along the bead seal themselves at the beginning of the ride, but that must have stopped since I have plenty of pressure after a good rocky beating at Llyods in Truckee today.

As recommended by the mix master himself, I mixed 1 pt. Slime, 1 pt. mold builder, 3 pts. RV antifreeze (PE).









Mixed and shook it up real well in a glass jar I got from my local bulk food store. 









Put 6 oz. in the tire. Looks good.

Thanks for this thread!!


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## xdtr22 (Nov 20, 2007)

Okay just went to Hobby Lobby and they were clueless on the Latex Mold Builder. I seen a jar of Latex Rubber made by Woodland Ssenics...is this the same stuff? Where in Hobby Lobby did you guys find this Mold Builder?


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## azpoolguy (Oct 23, 2008)

8 to 10 steps to the right of the front door by the scenery supplies. I think you saw the same stuff I used. Its labeled Liquid Latex I believe.


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## Treetrimmer (Dec 8, 2008)

William_Cannon said:


> I've been oozing through those holes and can't seem to get them to seal. I've laid the tires on their sides multiple times without success.


I have had the same issue. With all of my ghetto set ups (about 6 mo.). And one anomaly where the tire lost pressure when I set the bike down on its side. Then was good for a week, did the same next time I laid it down. Used one suggestion here about scrubbing the wax off of the inside of the tire, but it didn't eliminate the oozing. This oozing seems to happen only when I roll the tire after it has been setting overnight. The only issue that I believe is related to the oozing is depletion of sealant. I did have two tires dry up on me after about 2 months. To clarify "oozing" it looks like .5 mm (or less) little droplets, but no drips from each breach point. Since I see this after the tire sets for a while, it must be some stratification in the sealant.

Here is what I have used:
25-28psi front
28-32psi rear

20" Rim Strip
2.1 WTB Velocirapter 
2.1 Scwhalbe Rocket Ron ORC:thumbsup: 
2.4 Schwalbe Racing Ralph :madmax: 
2.4 Schwalbe NN Snake Skin:thumbsup: 
2.2 Stans Raven:thumbsup:

1 SL
1 MB
1 EG
2 WDx


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

*Too much EG*

It's the Ethylene Glycol that leaks from the sidewalls. I've had that experience in the past with some homebrews when I used too much EG in the mix.

In my opinion, most of you are using too much of it in your brews. If you want to cut down that leaking of EG from the sidewalls, then stop using so much in your mixtures.

Two parts Stans or Latex Mold Builder, one part Slime and some additive for helping to seal up bigger holes like ground up rubber particles or similar is all you need. The Slime already contains enough EG to stop the Stans from drying up.... so why add more?

Just try this mix for yourselves.

Rainman.


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## Treetrimmer (Dec 8, 2008)

Rainman said:


> Two parts Stans or Latex Mold Builder, one part Slime and some additive for helping to seal up bigger holes like ground up rubber particles or similar is all you need.Rainman.


Thanks for the tip! No other liquid with this, water or windex? I've always thought the mix I have been using was too diluted.


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## cycleboy (Mar 10, 2008)

Mixed up my sauce and did my first tubeless conversion this afternoon.

Sauce mixage - easy.

Tubeless conversion - make sure to not forget about the soapy water. I used a spray bottle and the only problem I had was one side of the MK2.4 had a lot of leaks. This was the side that only got a brief shot of soapy water before inflation. The other side and the rear ardent sealed up just fine, inflated with floor pump. Had the compressor handy just in case.

Assuming these are fine tomorrow, I'll help my buddy do the same.


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## Rainman (Apr 18, 2004)

Nope, no other liquid needed. The chunky Slime contains enough EG to prevent the Stans drying out over six months depending on the ambient temperatures where you ride.

Rainman.



Treetrimmer said:


> Thanks for the tip! No other liquid with this, water or windex? I've always thought the mix I have been using was too diluted.


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## Loudpawlz (Jan 26, 2004)

PSA - I was in Michaels today and got a 50% off coupon with my purchase of art supplies for my kid. That'll be good for about a $8 serving of mold builder.


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## racerdave (May 12, 2007)

Went to mix some more homebrew on Wednesday. I certainly thought I had the cap on my mold builder on tightly, but must not have... I'm pretty sure I recall being able to pour that stuff last year. 

I might have to break down and get some Stans. Right now I'm on a slightly watered-down/Windshield fluid/Slime mix and it's ok.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I found that leaving the latex in the jar, you get at least a thick dry layer on top. But once you mix it up as sealant it doesn't seem to change. This is why I mix a full jar of latex at a time. It just sits there mixed in the container, as unchanging as a twinkie. Shake before use is more to get the fibers/chunks evenly spread.


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## racerdave (May 12, 2007)

That's a good idea. I thought I mixed up enough to last a while, but the full-jar method is a wiser approach. My year-old latex turned into a solid blob.

Live and learn.


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

*Settling*

Do you notice settling when it sits?

Mine settles so that there is a layer of grey stuff (probably slime stuff?) in the bottom. Shaking vigorously mixes it back up.

Stuff seems to work just fine, even though it is having a hard time sealing up an old tear in my rear rampage. I think I might be asking too much of it there. That said, even that stays pretty well sealed.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

craigshaf said:


> Do you notice settling when it sits?
> 
> Mine settles so that there is a layer of grey stuff (probably slime stuff?) in the bottom. Shaking vigorously mixes it back up.
> 
> Stuff seems to work just fine, even though it is having a hard time sealing up an old tear in my rear rampage. I think I might be asking too much of it there. That said, even that stays pretty well sealed.


I got a sidewall cut in a Rampage - was sealing but wouldn't hold much pressure w/o popping open. I took that tire and put a patch on the inside, which lasted a bit more than a month before pulling loose - the sealant would seal it until the tire flexed, then it would let pressure/sealant out. The problem was that the tire threads had been cut, so the tear would really stretch under pressure. Got a needle and thread and whipstitched the cut. Sealant closed that right up, still going strong/dry after a couple weeks.


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## Ev52 (Jun 19, 2009)

Has anyone tried slime pro tubeless?

http://www.slime.com/product/781/(10112)-Slime-Pro-Tubeless-Sealant-.html


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

Got a liter of CaffeLatex. Will see how it works.


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## maxtheheathen (Feb 27, 2007)

Ev52 said:


> Has anyone tried slime pro tubeless?
> 
> http://www.slime.com/product/781/(10112)-Slime-Pro-Tubeless-Sealant-.html


A friend of mine was saying good things about this stuff, but it's about twice as expensive as Stan's. If it lasts more than twice as long though...


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Ev52 said:


> Has anyone tried slime pro tubeless?
> 
> http://www.slime.com/product/781/(10112)-Slime-Pro-Tubeless-Sealant-.html


Slime is local to me, about 10 miles away. I know about four guys locally who have used it, but all are riding full UST rims and tires on 26" bikes. I have not talked to anyone who has done a conversion using it. I'll talk to the buyer at the shop and see if they will get me some to try, since I have worn out a couple more tires and need to replace them.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Ev52 said:


> Has anyone tried slime pro tubeless?
> 
> http://www.slime.com/product/781/(10112)-Slime-Pro-Tubeless-Sealant-.html


This is funny. $19/pt for what is basically WSS - 
I looked at the MSDS:
https://secure.slime.com/images/uploads/2009051312534139164_slimeprotubelesssealantmsds.pdf

And altho it doesn't give specific ingredients, it clearly describes latex. It undoubtedly has propylene glycol antifreeze (since that is in regular slime) but that is nontoxic and doesn't have to be listed.


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## William_Cannon (May 5, 2009)

Anyone figure out how not to get boogers in their tires? After running the WSS (using ATV slime) for a couple of months, I found a cubic inch booger made of latex+black rubber chunks. I used Prestone EG, could that contributed to it?


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## Broccoli (Jun 11, 2008)

William_Cannon said:


> Anyone figure out how not to get boogers in their tires?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

William_Cannon said:


> Anyone figure out how not to get boogers in their tires? After running the WSS (using ATV slime) for a couple of months, I found a cubic inch booger made of latex+black rubber chunks. I used Prestone EG, could that contributed to it?


Originally I posted the response below in this thread.

I see it as Stan's doing its job. I get them occasionally with straight Stan's or mixed with tubeless Slime. The sizes vary.

When something punctures the tire, Stan's will coagulate to seal the hole. If a thorn goes through, the Stan's will bunch at the end of the thorn to seal, but may continue to "grow". The sloshing will eventually break this "koosh ball" loose and it will roll around, likely growing.

One tire that I wore out spent many miles in goatshead infested territory. When I removed the tire to replace it, I had probable 20+ little growths around the inside of the tire, and about four "kooshes" rolling around, all average marble size. I checked the growths attached to the tire inside, and sure enough, there was a thorn tip under them. Just for fun, I went searching for thorns, and gave up after I found around 20! That tire never deflated, and required about 2-3psi every three days or so. Yahoo Stan's! :thumbsup:

I just add about an ounce of Stan's every 2-3 months, depending on the temperatures. Only once did I notice the sound you mentioned, and popped the bead to remove the koosh. Usually I recharge with the Stan's Injector and do not worry about it.


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## jocnc1 (Mar 2, 2007)

yeah, I'm kind of curious about the buggers too.
I'm running the;
1 part Latex mold builder
1 part Slime tubeless
1 part cheap antifreeze
2 parts water
I think I also threw some pepper and glitter in there too.
These pics are the first time I've been inside the tires for about 6 mos. The brew was NOT liquid at all any more and it definitely turned to snot.
Any "tweaking" the recipe for longer life?


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## sergio_pt (Jan 29, 2007)

Where can I buy some acrilic latex online to make my first homemade tubeless sealant?

thanks


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## Tone No Balone (Dec 11, 2004)

I currently have 26" tubes in both my 29" wheels as I broke a spoke on my front wheel last week. I rode my Superlight squishy (26er) one ride and I went down and got a new spoke and trued up my front wheel. I'm in the same situation as Slocaus....I have two worn tires that need to be replaced and I think I may go back to straight Stan's or just a smidge of slime with at least a scoop and a half of stan's. I still think the benefits of running tubless far outweigh the inconvience of the initial set up. I like the WTB Prowler SL race up front (2.1) but it weeps constantly..... I will consider trying a different front tire.I think I will stay with the Maxis Ignitor (2.1) on the rear.
Tone.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Try the Ignitor up front. I have Prowler and Ignitor mounted up on flows for front and the Ignitor is way better front tire. The Prowler is probably a better rear since it has lower rolling resistance.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Science!*

After finally having a discussion with a chemist, and remembering to actually DO something about - I have some possible improvements.

First, the discussion - 
1) Cafe Latex, with its foaming properties seems a better way to get sealant up onto the sidewalls, which are still a bit of an issue for "regular" sealant.

It turns out that latex is actually considered an anti-foam additive (D'oh!), but detergent or soap could be used as a foaming agent - probably dish detergent, since laundry detergent has anti-foaming ingredients and soap breaks down faster than detergent.

2) Seapage, and coverage.

One thing I really like about WSS is the long life, so I'm reluctant to reduce the amount of liquid - but it was suggested to try a thickener (seaweed extract) to promote a better coating w/o changing evaporation (or maybe reducing it?). I just happened to have some sodium alginate thickener that I got with tie-dye supplies - used to make thicken the dye to the consistency of paint.

3) More chunkulation!

OK, so glitter was a cool idea that didn't work - wrong particle shape! So what plug shaped particulates could be used? Silica "gel", which is actually small sand-like beads has already been suggested, or their ceramic equivalent. Haven't scored any of this, so maybe later.

Another possible would be to replace the antifreeze with a second helping of Slime tubeless, something I will try in a small batch.

Experimental results:

1) An oldie - found the result from mixing no-tox antifreeze directly with latex! And finally tossed it after taking a pic.
2) Dawn dishwashing liquid - into 1 scoop of WSS
3) Shake, shake - about double volume
4)After a bit, not too bad, but not as foamy as CafeLatex - may try more soap later


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Next 'Spearamint*

And some thickener -

I just added this to the soapy mix

And good results! I just resealed a tire using about this ratio of thickener/sealant. We'll see.


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## Datalogger (Jul 5, 2008)

Great info!


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## gdlals (Mar 3, 2008)

*Am I missing something?*

I don't quite understand the logic of the foaming action of the new sealant....

Just logically thinking, my tires with a home-brew mixture will weep a little bit through the sidewalls which would tell me that indeed the sidewalls are getting a coating of the liquid stuff ....

So it seems to me that no one really knows if the foaming action thing actually coats a tire any better or efficiently than a non-foamy sealant...

I'm not saying that the caffelatex stuff is bad - I've never tried it - I'm just saying that maybe the foaming action is more marketing hype than real rigorous science.


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## dbo43867 (Aug 27, 2007)

I find that to prevent buggers I will unseal the bead and pee in it. If you are concerned about time spent, then rotate. I have one tub of ghetto tubeless mix in a jar, and the rest in the tire. When I switch, I'll pee in the jar and let it sit for oh 6-7 weeks on the kitchen table. Then it's perfect! :thumbsup:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Nobody from this list is going to eat dinner at your house


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## dbo43867 (Aug 27, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> Nobody from this list is going to eat dinner at your house


:crazy:

rft:


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## ricot83 (Jul 2, 2008)

wadester said:


> And some thickener -
> 
> I just added this to the soapy mix
> 
> And good results! I just resealed a tire using about this ratio of thickener/sealant. We'll see.


Thanks for doin all this work Wade I am real anxious to try out your recipe, minus the thinckener, since I dont really have any around.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

*The Snot Thickens...*

Great report, I hope to run some experiments in the near future using a tire made of clear plastic hose to observe the action of the sealant as the wheel rotates at speed. The beginning of the school season has my lab minions busy for a few weeks but that will give me time to find some sodium alginate. 

I designed a label while killing time with Photoshop on a dreary wet day last winter, came across it yesterday and thought I would post it. Seems like a superior product should have a label.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Moar*

OK, so I put some thickener in a "problem child" tire. This bad boy got a bad sidewall rip a while back - bad enough that the sealant wouldn't hold pressure above 15psi (pics in this thread). Tubed it, got it home - and put a patch on the inside.

This worked for a month or two, but the threads in the carcass had taken too much damage - and stretched enough for the patch not to hold. Sealant wasn't cuttin' it up on the wall, and now I could watch it stretch and start to lose air. Cool. Kinda.

So I whip out the sewing kit, open up the tire (again) and whip stitch the rip, patch and all! Put it back on the bead, and EXCELLENT! It seeped a little sealant thru the frankenpatch, but held - and continued to hold til this week. I found the tire very low, and when I pumped it up I felt a breeze on my knees - the tire stretching enough to open up a hole. Again.

This is when I was inspired to try the new goo. I could have shook the existing sealant into the hole, but that hadn't held once (or twice) already. I opened the bead, found a pool of sealant - and added another scoop WSS and 1/4 teaspoon of Sodium Alginate.

Went for a ride the next day, with the results shown. The thickened sealant extruded thru the hole during the ride, and congealed where you see it in the first pic. I note that this blob stayed put for a 1 1/2 hour ride in rough terrain on a full rigid fixed gear bike. Second pic is with the surface wiped off. Can you see why I'm calling this the frankenpatch? Oh yeah, rear tire - so I'm not taking too severe of a risk.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Oh yeah*

Sodium alginate is cheap - 6$+shipping gets you 1/4 lb that would last a while at 1/4 teaspoon/tire. http://www.dharmatrading.com/sa4-10.html I got the high viscosity/cotton kind since that's my kinda tie-dye.

But in the interest of SCIENCE! I will offer to send enough thickener for not one but TWO TIRES! (WooHoo! - 1/2 teaspoon) to anybody willing to play guinea pig! Just send me a mailing address and I'll send you a sample. Offer valid til I get tired (get it?) of it.

PS: Original Open Source Tubeless Tire Sealant! I love it! WSS for the WIN!


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## ricot83 (Jul 2, 2008)

Just setup 2 maxxis ignitor tires with gorilla tape ghetto and this special sauce. works awesome, one tire has been sitting for like 3-4 days and holding air. The other was just setup today so we will see.


BTW, what is the shelf life of this stuff mixed in a bottle?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

It seems to last well over a year in a tightly sealed container. I have never kept it longer, but it might last longer.


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## 2fst4u (Dec 2, 2006)

Alright Wade and anyone else who cares to revive this thread-I'm getting ready to mix up the original WSS formula but I want to make sure I got the antifreeze right. These are the ingredients of the antifreeze in my garage=Brand Name "Peak"ingredients=Ethylene Glycol, Diethylene Glycol, Dipotassium Phosphate, Corrosion inhibitors, silicates , defoamer, dyes. Does this work? 

I looked at a couple stores and I can't figure out which antifreeze you were recommending so I'm hoping the above mentioned works-thanks homebrew dudes


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

If you read through this entire thread originally the consensus was that you had to use the ethylene glycol (the older type green antifreeze), but then someone reported about 50 posts ago that they used the new type (red) antifreeze with equal results. And actually some of the posts indicate that you can use way less anti-freeze than the original recipe.

I have been very happy with my mix and it has worked well, but the anti-freeze does tend to weep out of some brands of tires little pin holes in the sidewall. I am thinking of cutting way back on the anti-freeze in my next batch.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Just don't put the latex directly in with the antifreeze - it tends to coagulate the latex. I mix latex, then slime, then water, antifreeze, water for the basic mix - mixing well with each new addition.

I also tried 2 new recipes - latex/slime/water (3 parts) and latex/2 slime/2 water (modified 5 part). No antifreeze added, just what's in the slime. 3 part is too thick, I think. Modified 5 part (M5) is very similar to the old 5 part mix with alginate thickener (T5?).

Haven't had the chance to field test the M5 blend in a tire yet - still no issues with thickened old style. That's the problem with improving this stuff - takes a long time for any data points. Actually, I do have one note on T5 - doesn't seem to lose pressure over time as much. Less top off of pressure after sitting a week.


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

wadester said:


> I also tried 2 new recipes - latex/slime/water (3 parts) and latex/2 slime/2 water (modified 5 part). No antifreeze added, just what's in the slime. 3 part is too thick, I think. Modified 5 part (M5) is very similar to the old 5 part mix with alginate thickener (T5?).
> 
> Haven't had the chance to field test the M5 blend in a tire yet - still no issues with thickened old style. That's the problem with improving this stuff - takes a long time for any data points. Actually, I do have one note on T5 - doesn't seem to lose pressure over time as much. Less top off of pressure after sitting a week.


Wadster,

What part of the country do you live in? I.E. how cold does it get there? I need to make up a new batch and would love to find a recipe that was antifreeze free (I'm tired of feeling like I'm leaving an environmental bomb anytime I have problems with tubeless). Problem is it gets cold here in Nebraska so I need to have something that won't freeze up. Not sure if the Slime has enough anti-freezing compounds to keep the whole concoction from freezing so I'd be curious what your take is on the matter. I have a guy I ride with here that only uses latex and windshield washer fluid so I might give that recipe a try also.


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## banzai (Sep 22, 2005)

*Mixing up a batch tonight*

Has anyone thought about adding palmolive dish detergent to the mix? I am thinking of mixing latex, slime, and liquid dish detergent.


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

banzai said:


> Has anyone thought about adding palmolive dish detergent to the mix? I am thinking of mixing latex, slime, and liquid dish detergent.


I've never tried it so I can't say that I have any first hand knowledge on the subject, but it seems to me that detergent would be kind of counter-productive in a sealant concoction.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

banzai said:


> Has anyone thought about adding palmolive dish detergent to the mix? I am thinking of mixing latex, slime, and liquid dish detergent.


See post #254 above from wadester; did not read much huh?.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

bikerfish said:


> Wadster,
> 
> What part of the country do you live in? I.E. how cold does it get there? I need to make up a new batch and would love to find a recipe that was antifreeze free (I'm tired of feeling like I'm leaving an environmental bomb anytime I have problems with tubeless). Problem is it gets cold here in Nebraska so I need to have something that won't freeze up. Not sure if the Slime has enough anti-freezing compounds to keep the whole concoction from freezing so I'd be curious what your take is on the matter. I have a guy I ride with here that only uses latex and windshield washer fluid so I might give that recipe a try also.


I actually live in the southwest desert - so I was initially more concerned about summer evaporation than freezing, but we do get "winter" here and get below freezing at times but not for too many days or very far below. Others on this thread have real winter.

1) The working fluid in Slime (and Stan's) is propylene glycol antifreeze. This is a very low tox material, and is approved for use in food in its pure form - I wouldn't drink the automotive version tho.
2) You can mix the original WSS recipe with NoTox antifreeze or pure propylene glycol - just don't mix directly with the latex as mentioned.
3) I believe that Slime is rated for real winter - cutting it with water would reduce that, but I bet the latex takes it the other way. Why don't you mix some up and leave it outside (in a non glass container) and report back? SCIENCE!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

banzai said:


> Has anyone thought about adding palmolive dish detergent to the mix? I am thinking of mixing latex, slime, and liquid dish detergent.





bikerfish said:


> I've never tried it so I can't say that I have any first hand knowledge on the subject, but it seems to me that detergent would be kind of counter-productive in a sealant concoction.


I tried detergent to emulate cafe latex's foaming action - but with the concern mentioned by bikerfish, and the fact that the sealant is well distributed on every part of the tire while in motion - I've dropped that line of investigation for now. A dense foam inside the tire would keep the sealant from pooling at the bottom of the tire, but rotating the hole to that location has served me well before.

If you try it - take notes and report back, please.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

wadester said:


> Since 5/04 I been running:
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 1 part Slime tubeless
> 1 part cheap antifreeze
> ...


Mold builder at Michaels. $15 for 16 fl oz. is no deal at all. I've seen them in 32 oz containers.

http://www.michaels.com/art/online/displayProductPage?productNum=gc0514

Another option to buy it in bulk, by the pint, quart or gallon, maybe for club usage?

http://www.artmolds.com/product_details.cfm?product_id=177&page=0&cat_name=Latex Rubber


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

I'd like to say how much I have enjoyed reading this thread and appreciate it being revived so new members can see it. I don't want to be seen as a kill joy by saying this, because I realise there is probably a good answer to my question, so don't get the wrong impression.

Given that tubeless tyre slime purchased from an auto parts shop contains all of the other ingerdieants mentioned in the secret sauce, is it not just as easy to use the slime as it comes? As I say, I know there will be a reason for it. I'm just wondering what it might be.

Thanks in advance for setting me straight.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

MagicCarpet said:


> I'd like to say how much I have enjoyed reading this thread and appreciate it being revived so new members can see it. I don't want to be seen as a kill joy by saying this, because I realise there is probably a good answer to my question, so don't get the wrong impression.
> 
> Given that tubeless tyre slime purchased from an auto parts shop contains all of the other ingerdieants mentioned in the secret sauce, is it not just as easy to use the slime as it comes? As I say, I know there will be a reason for it. I'm just wondering what it might be.
> 
> Thanks in advance for setting me straight.


That auto store Slime on its own is very thick compared to bike tire sealants. I have no good guesses on how the additional latex and other liquids affects the sealing properties. But I do have a hunch that the thicker auto Slime would not flow as smoothly and quickly in the tire, meaning you would have a sensation of off-center weight in the wheel. You wouldn't feel that on a car because the wheels and tires are so much heavier and the engines are much more powerful than (most) of us.


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## adamantane (Jan 27, 2005)

just curious, i haven't read all the notes here but has anybody made WSS without the slime in it...curious if that would work just as well...then all we're really buying is the mold builder (assuming everyone has a bit of antifreeze in the garage)

thanks


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

bikerfish said:


> Wadster,
> 
> What part of the country do you live in? I.E. how cold does it get there? I need to make up a new batch and would love to find a recipe that was antifreeze free (I'm tired of feeling like I'm leaving an environmental bomb anytime I have problems with tubeless). Problem is it gets cold here in Nebraska so I need to have something that won't freeze up. Not sure if the Slime has enough anti-freezing compounds to keep the whole concoction from freezing so I'd be curious what your take is on the matter. I have a guy I ride with here that only uses latex and windshield washer fluid so I might give that recipe a try also.


I'm no chemist, but I can't think of a single liquid that doesn't freeze that's really environmentally friendly and completely harmless to living creatures. Unless maybe there's some way we could work a highly saline solution into it....


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

MagicCarpet said:


> I'd like to say how much I have enjoyed reading this thread and appreciate it being revived so new members can see it. I don't want to be seen as a kill joy by saying this, because I realise there is probably a good answer to my question, so don't get the wrong impression.
> 
> Given that tubeless tyre slime purchased from an auto parts shop contains all of the other ingerdieants mentioned in the secret sauce, is it not just as easy to use the slime as it comes? As I say, I know there will be a reason for it. I'm just wondering what it might be.
> 
> Thanks in advance for setting me straight.





adamantane said:


> just curious, i haven't read all the notes here but has anybody made WSS without the slime in it...curious if that would work just as well...then all we're really buying is the mold builder (assuming everyone has a bit of antifreeze in the garage)


As noted before, sealant is a range of things that will plug holes/leaks of various sizes - Latex is the base size for those little irregularities in the bead, and for final sealing of any hole. Slime is a convenient mix of fibers and chunks that cover a fairly wide range. The holy grail would be something that could plug a sidewall rip.



boomn said:


> That auto store Slime on its own is very thick compared to bike tire sealants. I have no good guesses on how the additional latex and other liquids affects the sealing properties. But I do have a hunch that the thicker auto Slime would not flow as smoothly and quickly in the tire, meaning you would have a sensation of off-center weight in the wheel. You wouldn't feel that on a car because the wheels and tires are so much heavier and the engines are much more powerful than (most) of us.


Stan's sealant is/was the standard that WSS was based on - but it's watery, evaporates quickly, and has a narrow range of chunkulation. WSS extends the useful life considerable, as well as sealing a wider range of holes (part of lasting longer, I think). The current direction of evaluation is pointing to a thicker mix - more chunks, and trying to get the sealant to stay distributed in the tire after you stop.


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## DeeEight (Jan 13, 2004)

Ummmm, why not just use winter grade windshield washer fluid instead of the water and antifreeze?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

DeeEight said:


> Ummmm, why not just use winter grade windshield washer fluid instead of the water and antifreeze?


Most WWW is water, detergent, and either isopropyl alcohol, methyl alcohol, or ethylene glycol. Either evaporates quick in warm weather or is the same stuff we're using - plus detergent.

The old style ammonia water is hard to find. Search for MSDS (material safety data sheet) to find ingredients.


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## adamantane (Jan 27, 2005)

wadester...have you or anybody actually seen the msds for stan's sealant? i wonder if it is available just to see exactly what is in his brewski...is it really mostly propylene glycol
thanks


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

adamantane said:


> wadester...have you or anybody actually seen the msds for stan's sealant? i wonder if it is available just to see exactly what is in his brewski...is it really mostly propylene glycol
> thanks


Google search for "stan's notubes msds"
Hit one was notubes.com
Hit two was the MSDS
http://www.notubes.com/pdf/NoTubes _MSDS.pdf

Ammonia is the only hazardous material.


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## adamantane (Jan 27, 2005)

slocaus said:


> Google search for "stan's notubes msds"
> Hit one was notubes.com
> Hit two was the MSDS
> http://www.notubes.com/pdf/NoTubes _MSDS.pdf
> ...


ok, so with msds, you dont have to write exactly what is in the product, just whatever the 'dangerous' item is, in this case now we know ammonia is in thier for sure...but how do we know it is cut with propylene glycol...maybe it is just water, latex and some ammonia...anyway, thanks for finding that msds pdf...if i recall, the patent for it maybe had a bit more information, like the little bit of solid added to plug up holes better...but it also doesn't give the exact composition...guess you dont have to anywhere


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## cstem (Jan 13, 2006)

customfab said:


> i was just being a wise ass, so simmer down charlie brown. i honestly would love to see somebody validate the tire compliance and lower rolling resistance cause i think it is pure marketing BS.


This has been confirmed by every motorcycle tire manufacturer in the world. Through extensive testing they have found that (especially Michelin and thier roadrace tires) the tube to tire interface creates friction. Naturally the friction will cause the tire casing to move slowly about it's sidewalls. The slower movement means the tread (to which the tire casing is attached) will not form to small imperfections (like a little 1 inch rock in the middle of a high speed turn) and create as high of grip as is achieved by a tubeless tire set up.

Notice to the only high performance tires sold are for drag racing slicks that are designed with sloppy soft sidewalls to allow the tread to conform to the pavement- all others run tubeless (except in the most extreme of cases that have a run flat bladder, not a tube technically).

Another benefit that has no scientific basis is that waiting for/making your buddies wait for a tube replacement sucks on great rides. Another one- flats on climbs suck just a little less than a thorn flat on a twisty fun downhill. Another one I like- Losing a race you led alll day due to a flat tube is a real bummer.

I can understand where tubeless benefits would not be applicable. Maybe one likes changing tubes alot? They ride alone and consider tube time a great break. They don't ride in flat prone areas (LUCKY!) They don't race or they just don't have the : time, patience, skill, desire to pay someone else and/or the need to do it.


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

*Testament to tubeless and a warning*

I had to tear off my tire yesterday to replace a broken spoke. I pulled my cut tube off, pried up (and subsequently broke) my rim tape and had to cut through the two layers of electrical tape that was below that. Replaced the nipple & spoke and decided since I'm running a liner (the cut tube) there really wasn't any need to repair either of the tape layers I butchered. I just stuck then down as best I could and then put the cut tube back on, remounted my tire, added more sealant and walla the wheel was good to go.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
 <o></o>
Fast forward a couple hours...I'm heading out to the trailhead for a group ride and feeling pretty frisky so I'm zooming along, hitting curbs, jumping etc. After I jump one curb I hear a funny spiiffft sound so I come to a stop and check it out. There was about a 6" section of cut tube that blew out from between the rim & tire. I thought for sure that was the end of my ride, or I was at least going to have to put a tube in (which I knew was going to be extremely messy because I just loaded up the tire with sealant). But upon further inspection I couldn't hear any air leaks so I just grabbed my knife, cut the exposed tube off so it wouldn't get caught on trail debris, added a little air to the tire and rode off. I ended up riding 30+ miles and only added air twice. I'll try to take some pictures of it before I remount the tire.<o></o>
 <o></o>
Anyway, lessons I learned from this experience:<o></o>
1. The sealant works awesome (which I knew already, but it's always cool when it's validated.<o></o>
2. Don't get super cheap with a ghetto tubeless setup. It's already cheap! Next time I remove a cut tube, I'm starting over with a new one. Although I'd still be tempted to reuse a liner that hasn't been removed  :nono: (OK maybe I haven't learned my lesson ).<o></o>


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

*Testament to tubeless and a warning*

Sorry post got doubled.


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## azpoolguy (Oct 23, 2008)

Is there any agreement on what to use to increase chunkulation of the home brew? I've had three punctures the brew would not seal in the last 2 months. Riding in AZ the sealant has worked great for thorns and small punctures but the last three have required patching. 2 were from glass on the way to the trail and one was from a rock. All thru the tread on a Bontrager XDX. Maybe I'm asking to much from the brew. Also I'm only getting 6 to 8 weeks from the home brew before it is dried up in the tire. About the same time as Stans but at the cost and quantity of home brew I don't mind topping off anymore.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

azpoolguy said:


> Is there any agreement on what to use to increase chunkulation of the home brew? I've had three punctures the brew would not seal in the last 2 months. Riding in AZ the sealant has worked great for thorns and small punctures but the last three have required patching. 2 were from glass on the way to the trail and one was from a rock. All thru the tread on a Bontrager XDX. Maybe I'm asking to much from the brew. Also I'm only getting 6 to 8 weeks from the home brew before it is dried up in the tire. About the same time as Stans but at the cost and quantity of home brew I don't mind topping off anymore.


Wow - only two months and you're dry? How much sealant are you putting in?

Re: Chunkulation. We don't have a valid new larger type of chunk since glitter didn't seem to work (I'll post a pic of WSS/w/glitter after run-to-dry. Biggest booger I've ever seen, and it was purple/red rather than green) If anybody has an idea, to try - speak up!

Anyways, my current attempt is thicker sauce. Me and 3 other lab-rats are running WSS/w/alginate thickener - no data points yet. And I just resauced that dried-out glitter tire with a variation on WSS: double the slime/no antifreeze. Similar to thickened, but with twice as many chunks.


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## azpoolguy (Oct 23, 2008)

wadester said:


> Wow - only two months and you're dry? How much sealant are you putting in?
> 
> Re: Chunkulation. We don't have a valid new larger type of chunk since glitter didn't seem to work (I'll post a pic of WSS/w/glitter after run-to-dry. Biggest booger I've ever seen, and it was purple/red rather than green) If anybody has an idea, to try - speak up!
> 
> Anyways, my current attempt is thicker sauce. Me and 3 other lab-rats are running WSS/w/alginate thickener - no data points yet. And I just resauced that dried-out glitter tire with a variation on WSS: double the slime/no antifreeze. Similar to thickened, but with twice as many chunks.


I use 2 red Stans scoops per tire. Maybe I should step up to 3. Living in Phoenix my summer rides are at 105+ degrees and my bike lives in a 110 to 115 degree garage all summer.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

I've been following this thread with interest as I just got a set of Stans Flow 29ers and plan to run them tubeless. I'm going to mix up some of Wadester's home brew and try it out.

One suggestion I have for making smaller batches without finding the remainder of your liquid latex dried up in 6 months comes from my experience with casting and molding. After pouring rubber (silicone or latex) and after pouring urethanes into molds, I always displace the air in the can with nitrogen. Often called a nitrogen blanket, this displaces oxygen in the container (main cause of drying out/ deterioration) and keeps the contents fresh for years. I still have urethanes that I haven't opened for 2 years that are as liquid as they were when I closed the containers (one shake of the can proves this). I've forgotten to add nitrogen to a can before and found the urethane jelly like and unuseable 2 weeks later.

You can get the nitrogen in cans from molding/ casting places. It looks like an aerosol can with a straw that you direct into the can. Spray the gas in for 3 seconds and put the lid on tight as soon as the straw is removed. Allows you to buy larger size containers of material and make smaller batches.

Cheers


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

Great tip...Thanks :thumbsup: !



isleblue65 said:


> I've been following this thread with interest as I just got a set of Stans Flow 29ers and plan to run them tubeless. I'm going to mix up some of Wadester's home brew and try it out.
> 
> One suggestion I have for making smaller batches without finding the remainder of your liquid latex dried up in 6 months comes from my experience with casting and molding. After pouring rubber (silicone or latex) and after pouring urethanes into molds, I always displace the air in the can with nitrogen. Often called a nitrogen blanket, this displaces oxygen in the container (main cause of drying out/ deterioration) and keeps the contents fresh for years. I still have urethanes that I haven't opened for 2 years that are as liquid as they were when I closed the containers (one shake of the can proves this). I've forgotten to add nitrogen to a can before and found the urethane jelly like and unuseable 2 weeks later.
> 
> ...


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## jdpowers (May 6, 2009)

azpoolguy said:


> I use 2 red Stans scoops per tire. Maybe I should step up to 3. Living in Phoenix my summer rides are at 105+ degrees and my bike lives in a 110 to 115 degree garage all summer.


I put a little over 3 ozs in my 29er and it only lasts about 6 weeks as well. I also live in Phoenix. I think we are just paying our dues for living in a hot dry location.


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## inzane (Jun 20, 2006)

So, bit of a strange thing with my Intense 909's that i set up tubeless. The sidewalls on the tyres appear to be constantly "Wet", I assume from some of the goo oozing through the sidewalls. As I am using propylene glycol in the home brew goo, i assume it is some of this that is sitting around, as the water and ammonia would have just evaporated.

Are some tyres just not suitable to be run as tubeless? I have run a number of other tyres as tubeless and not yet had this problem??


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

inzane said:


> So, bit of a strange thing with my Intense 909's that i set up tubeless. The sidewalls on the tyres appear to be constantly "Wet", I assume from some of the goo oozing through the sidewalls. As I am using propylene glycol in the home brew goo, i assume it is some of this that is sitting around, as the water and ammonia would have just evaporated.
> 
> Are some tyres just not suitable to be run as tubeless? I have run a number of other tyres as tubeless and not yet had this problem??


My Conti MKs do the same thing. My Rampages didn't.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

craigshaf said:


> My Conti MKs do the same thing. My Rampages didn't.


Funny enough, my Rampage did this a lot but my Ardent did not at all. In my case I'm 100% positive that the difference was due to the Rampage having a full year of riding already on it so the sidewalls were very worn out, whereas the Ardent was relatively new (~2 months of riding).


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## maxtheheathen (Feb 27, 2007)

On tires with thin sidewalls that ooze and don't seal up well, I've coated the inside with rubber cement before adding sealant. No oozing, no pinholes in need of sealing.


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## inzane (Jun 20, 2006)

boomn said:


> Funny enough, my Rampage did this a lot but my Ardent did not at all. In my case I'm 100% positive that the difference was due to the Rampage having a full year of riding already on it so the sidewalls were very worn out, whereas the Ardent was relatively new (~2 months of riding).


That is a point, the 909's have a bit of riding in them already...

Interesting.


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

inzane said:


> That is a point, the 909's have a bit of riding in them already...
> 
> Interesting.


Rampage - pretty new, less than 3 months when I tubelessed them. 
Conti's were brand spanking new. But I think Conti's sidewall is thin and the crosshatch design seems to promote some seepage.


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

My Nano Raptors have wet patches all over here and there, including the tread. They took a couple of weeks to appear and aren't getting any worse. I'm speculating, but my guess is that for any given tyre, the type of sealant would make a difference. I'm using a variation of Wadester's Secret Sauce and find the sealing qualities very good. The wet spots don't bother me because they took so long to appear and aren't worsening.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

MagicCarpet said:


> My Nano Raptors have wet patches all over here and there, including the tread. They took a couple of weeks to appear and aren't getting any worse. I'm speculating, but my guess is that for any given tyre, the type of sealant would make a difference. I'm using a variation of Wadester's Secret Sauce and find the sealing qualities very good. The wet spots don't bother me because they took so long to appear and aren't worsening.


sounds like normal casing wear. The constant flex of the casing, especially at lower pressures, apparently slowly weakens the rubber in the sidewalls. There is also the fact that braking and pedaling both try to pull the bead in the opposite direction of the tread.

The difference has been pretty apparent to me when converting different tires that had seen varying amounts of use with tubes in the past. The nearly new tires converted with almost zero sidewall seeping while the older tires were seeping a lot more. The year old Rampage that I converted basically had green sidewalls after I was done (until the dust stuck to everything and turned it a nicer brown)


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

I just mixed up a batch of WSS last night

1 part Latex mold builder
1 part Slime tubeless
1 part cheap antifreeze
2 parts water

I got the 50/50% pre-mix cheap antifreeze, so that became 1 part water + 1 part antifreeze.

I found a good deal on mold builder at Dick Blicks ($22 for 32 oz)
http://www.dickblick.com/products/artmolds-kreemtex-latex/

Mixed it up, carefull to dilute the latex with water before adding the pre-mixed antifreeze mix. Everything mixed up well with no clumping and the black specks from the Slime are mostly suspended with some sinking.

I sprayed this into the left over latex to prevent it from solidifying:
http://www.smooth-on.com/index.php?cPath=1203

I read a page back that there may be too much Ethylene Glycol in this mix. If I find this to be true, I'll add some more Slime and mold builder and hopefully this will balance it out.

I'll report back.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Last note on Glitter*

I mentioned this a while back, but here is the picture. Largest booger I ever found. This was after a long life (run to dryout) in a front tire.


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## Dion (Oct 22, 2009)

I rode with my brother yesterday and we went tubeless on his 26" SS. He went all the way down to 28psi and loved it.

I thinkg I'm going to try it on my 29'er. Nothing fancy, I think I'll just buy the Stan's kit.


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

What are you guys using for valve stems and a good source for them? I hate breaking the seal to add goop.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

Simplemind said:


> What are you guys using for valve stems and a good source for them? I hate breaking the seal to add goop.


I found a deal on some presta tubes with removable valve cores for really cheap and cut out the valve stem. I bought a handful to make the shipping worth it and now I have a handful of valve stems:thumbsup:


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Being new to the tubeless scene, and having just laced a Stan's Flow 29'er to a DT Swiss 240S rim, I thought I'd share with you what's been working stellar for me. I picked up a quart of Stans for $20, 24 oz of Slime Tubeless for $13, and had some old style Ethylene glycol antifreeze laying around. 

I put in 3 oz of Stans to the tire, a Wire bead CST Caballero, hit it with the compressor, with soap on the beads, and it popped right on,nice and straight. Did two full sets of shaking the Stan's up onto the bead, like the video showed, and laying the tire on a bucket, on it's sides. Held air fine over night. Added 2 oz of slime, 1oz of antifreeze, and 1 oz of water, mixed it all up, pulled the valve core, and injected that in.

Going on 4 weeks now, I just added about 7 psi, up to 37 from 30, after a month of riding around about 450 miles. No leaks, good bead seal, no flats, I know I've gone over plenty of goatheads this past month. 

My thoughts are that a good beadsealing of Stan's latex before injecting the rest and turning it into Wades Secret Sauce inside will lay down a good base coat of liquid latex, and the rest of the sauce can be used fixing the leaks. The Caballero is easily capable of 1200 miles on the rear tire, and the rear is where I get most of my leaks anyways. Good test for the product and booger formation. At 850 grams, the Cabellero is not a thin tire, hasn't weeped a drop, and is a great long wearing tire, especially if you ride pavement to the trail head.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

I have a problem with either my tires or WSS not sealing. I mixed the WSS as indicated. I was surprised at how thin it was -- like whole milk consistency. The black pieces of rubber from the Slime settled to the bottom of the container rather quickly I thought, and even after 5 minutes of the container sitting on the shelf, the bottom had turned grey with the rubber particles. I could shake it up and they would be dispersed again.

So I have a new set of 29er Kenda Small Block 8s that I mounted up last night on Stans Flow/ ZTR wheels with the factory tape and valve stem. First I drizzled the WSS along the bead area inside the rim and tilted the wheel so it flowed all the way around on both sides. 

Next I mounted the tires, except for a small section of the bead on one side. I poured in 2 scoop fulls (2 oz roughly) of WSS into the tire and then pushed the bead over the rim and inflated it. It inflated and popped into place fine with a floor pump. 

I repeated this with both front and rear wheels and then did the shake to spread out the WSS inside the tire and bead area and then set each wheel down on a bucket. I turned the wheels over every hour for 3 turns, shaking the wheels again when I turned them. Both tires were leaking air and bubbling out the WSS.

3 hours later, both tires were down to about 10 psi (I started with about 35). I inflated them, turned them and shook them again and then set them down on the buckets overnight.

This morning the rear tire still had air, but was bubbling what looked mostly like antifreeze from the bead. The front tire was flat. This morning I added more WSS to the front tire - which already had what looked like enough down inside the tire, but I added more. I re-inflated both tires and shook them again and now they are sitting on the buckets again.

The WSS seems to be way too watery because the air is bubbling right past it and out of the bead. 

Has anyone experienced this?

I'm thinking I am going to pick up another bottle of slime and a larger container and mix more slime and mold builder into the mix. I think that whoever it was who said there might be too much anti-freeze in WSS might be onto something.


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## racerdave (May 12, 2007)

Anyone try non-ammonia latex?

http://www.fxsupply.com/materials/latex.html


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

isleblue65 said:


> I have a problem with either my tires or WSS not sealing. I mixed the WSS as indicated. I was surprised at how thin it was -- like whole milk consistency. The black pieces of rubber from the Slime settled to the bottom of the container rather quickly I thought, and even after 5 minutes of the container sitting on the shelf, the bottom had turned grey with the rubber particles. I could shake it up and they would be dispersed again.
> 
> So I have a new set of 29er Kenda Small Block 8s that I mounted up last night on Stans Flow/ ZTR wheels with the factory tape and valve stem. First I drizzled the WSS along the bead area inside the rim and tilted the wheel so it flowed all the way around on both sides.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you got some of that new low-fiber slime. Also, some tire/rim combos are not good for tubeless. Did you use soapy water to assemble?


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

wadester said:


> Sounds like you got some of that new low-fiber slime. Also, some tire/rim combos are not good for tubeless. Did you use soapy water to assemble?


The Slime I got was the tubeless slime from Wal Mart with the black rubber specs in it. There was another one for tubes that had less rubber in it.

I didn't use soapy water, but I coated the inside of the rims with the mix, and now that it's had 13+ hours, the WSS should have sealed by now.

The thing that makes me question my mix is that the rubber really settles at the bottom. The photos of other people's WSS mix does not indicate this settling.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

racerdave said:


> Anyone try non-ammonia latex?
> 
> http://www.fxsupply.com/materials/latex.html


Never heard of it, but a very interesting thing. I wonder what they use to keep the latex liquid? I found some "low ammonia" latex, which used ammonium hydroxide - still ammonia, but with more water added.

At $15.50/pt, its a bit more money. You gonna try it?


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

This is a fascinating thread. I have never gone tubeless but I want to on my new build. 

Two questions:

Anyone run into freezing issues? I commute on the bike through the winter, down to single digit (F) temps, and I have found that slime (in the tubes) freezes at about 14* if I leave the bike in the garage overnight. Then it feels like a clown bike in the morning. Anyone run homebrew slime at really low temps? Any issues? 

And how much does the reccomended amount of home-brew goo weigh compared to your typical 29er tube? How much of a weight savings is it?

Edit: And a bonus, 3rd question - Can you run street friendly tire pressures (upwards of 80psi) in a typical 29er tubeless set-up?


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

CommuterBoy said:


> This is a fascinating thread. I have never gone tubeless but I want to on my new build.
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> ...


All this blizm blazm is making me second guess my decision to go tubeless on my new bike. Its too late now, so I am in.

The Stan's website has a video showing puncture tests ... including road wheels ...

http://www.notubes.com/movie_newdemo.php


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

CommuterBoy said:


> This is a fascinating thread. I have never gone tubeless but I want to on my new build.
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> ...


All this blizm blazm is making me second guess my decision to go tubeless on my new bike. Its too late now, so I am in.

The Stan's website has a video showing puncture tests ... including road wheels ...

http://www.notubes.com/movie_newdemo.php


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I'll be running mountain wheels/tires on the new bike, just want to be able to crank up the air pressure for the occasional commute. Can I pump tubless tires up to pretty high pressures without worrying about it? I usually crank my tubed MTB up to 70 or so psi for the commute, then back down to 45 or so for trails.


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

CommuterBoy said:


> I'll be running mountain wheels/tires on the new bike, just want to be able to crank up the air pressure for the occasional commute. Can I pump tubless tires up to pretty high pressures without worrying about it? I usually crank my tubed MTB up to 70 or so psi for the commute, then back down to 45 or so for trails.


I doubt it, all indication is that MTB tubeless tires should be run at lower prossures.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

isleblue65; if you didn't use soap, it probably won't seal. You need to clean everything off and start over with soapy water on the bead. Watch the video on Stan's site again. I also saw no mention of inflating the tire with a tube to seat the tape. Something doesn't sound right about your mixture either. My mixture is thick enough that the little rubber particles are suspended for quite a while.

Commuterboy; most rims for MTB such as Stan's have max inflation pressure around 45 psi or less. Most MTB tires have max inflation pressure around 65 psi. Despite what most people think, inflating a fat MTB tire much above 40 does almost nothing for rolling resistance and in fact can increase rolling resistance above a certain point. High inflation pressures make the ride less comfortable and lower traction. Tires have the least rolling resistance when the deflection at the contact patch is around 15% of the tire height as a general rule.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm totally with you on rolling resistance, except for the part about more air making it worse. The smaller the contact patch, the less rolling resistance. Square profile tires make this a bit more complicated, but the physics doesn't change. The harder a tire is, and the smaller the contact patch, the less resistance. I don't think you could air up a bike tire hard enough to make it a disadvantage. The tires I'm using on my MTB corrently (forte versa trak) have a rounded profile, not a squared profile, and are a 'compromise' mtb/street tire to begin with. Airing up a rounded profile tire decreases the contact patch more significantly than a squared tire, and results in less rolling resistance on the street. I basically go by what the rear tire looks like when I look down while riding on pavement. If it's squished way out, I figure more contact, more rolling resistance. I found 70psi (reccomended high pressure is 65, I don't want to push it too far) lets me get up more on the center tread of the tire, and rolls noticeably faster on the pavement. It's completely horrible on dirt (part of my commute is on a dirt road)...I skitter all over the place, but when I hit the pavement, the higher the pressure the better, with these tires at least.

The commute is not a 'deal breaker' with going tubless though...I have a dedicated commuter bike. I could deal with lower pressures for the occasional commute on the new 29er. Just trying to get a feel for it. Thanks for the info.


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2009)

there are other systems, but Stan's void the warranty if you run high pressures (>45psi).


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Forgive my ignorance, but can I expect to run the same pressures on my 29er that I run on my 26"? I'm 200 lbs, and I run around 40-45 on trails usually.


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## racerdave (May 12, 2007)

wadester said:


> At $15.50/pt, its a bit more money. You gonna try it?


A bit pricey, yes, but for peace of mind with the rims, I will give it a shot. And it's not a whole lot more than the stinky stuff. It could alleviate some of the ammonia/aluminum concerns here.

I can't say when, however, because I'm not sure how much tubeless time I'll get in the next few months here in WI. I'm on my SS CX commuter almost exclusively now and that's tubed with road-ish tires in cold temps.

I read this thread and I thought I recalled seeing the ammonia-free stuff somewhere. So about 5 different Google search phases searches later, I found that stuff at fxsupply.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

yourdaguy said:


> isleblue65; if you didn't use soap, it probably won't seal. You need to clean everything off and start over with soapy water on the bead. Watch the video on Stan's site again. I also saw no mention of inflating the tire with a tube to seat the tape. Something doesn't sound right about your mixture either. My mixture is thick enough that the little rubber particles are suspended for quite a while.


I saw a tubeless blog where the guy recommended doing it the way I did it, and it worked because it puts a layer of sealant between the rim and tire. I'm not sure why mine didn't work, but I'll take your advice (and Stans) and remove the tires, soap them up and try again.

I never used a tube to seat the tape, so not sure where you read that.

My sealant is Wade's recipe line for line, so I'm not sure what happened. I'll thicken it with more slime and latex and see how it works for round #2. I'll have a 5 year supply at least!


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

CommuterBoy said:


> This is a fascinating thread. I have never gone tubeless but I want to on my new build. fficeffice" /><O></O>





CommuterBoy said:


> <O></O>
> Two questions:<O></O>
> <O></O>
> Anyone run into freezing issues? I commute on the bike through the winter, down to single digit (F) temps, and I have found that slime (in the tubes) freezes at about 14* if I leave the bike in the garage overnight. Then it feels like a clown bike in the morning. Anyone run homebrew slime at really low temps? Any issues? <O</OAnd how much does the reccomended amount of home-brew goo weigh compared to your typical 29er tube? How much of a weight savings is it?<O></O>
> ...


<O</O1st question: Let me preface this by saying I'm not a tubeless "expert" but I can tell you what I know. I started running tubeless last winter - 1st couple wheelsets I did was using Stan's sealant. Since then all my conversions have been with some variation of the WSS homebrew. I've never had any freezing issues with either sealant and I know several of my rides last winter were well below 0F (-20F was my coldest ride last year but I can't be certain I was running tubeless at that point). If you're mixing the antifreeze version I can't image you'll have any problems with freezing.

2nd Question -- Weight savings: I've never actually weighed a before and after conversion so I just don't know. I'm positive most (if not all) of my conversions resulted in a net "loss" of weight, but to be fair, I've always hated flats so when I ran tubes I usually had something like tube+slime+liners (and sometimes TR tubes) so my tires were always ridiculously heavy - which I felt was a fair trade-off for no flats. Tubeless allows me to ditch all the extras and just go with tire+sealant and still no flats so I've been very happy with the tradeoff (I usually run extra sealant too - like I said, I HATE flats). I can tell you this about tubeless - although I can't exactly qualify it exactly, I've noticed that tubeless seems to roll faster. I don't know if it's weight or how a tire and tube interact, but regardless the same tire on the same rim running tubeless feels faster than tubed. I was reminded of this a few months ago when I was riding my cross bike on a wheelset that I thought I had converted to tubeless. The whole ride I was perplexed why my bike felt so slow - I had switched to my commuter wheelset but it felt much slower than my offroad wheelset. Low and behold, I got a pinch flat on a creek crossing (which also had me perplexed because that rarely happens with tubeless) when I went to put a tube in I realized the wheelset I was running was still tubed. I guess the reason this experience brought it home for me was because, in this instance, I wasn't biased. I thought I was running tubeless and there was a noticeable difference in the bike's performance.

<O</O3rd question: I wouldn't recommend it. Almost every bad experience I've had with tubeless so far has been due to over-inflation - especially with 29er tires. I've been able to successfully run 45# + on my cross bike tires but once you bring the volume part of the equation into the mix as you do with 29" tires trouble seems to ensue. I really don't think you need to run that high of pressure with tubeless though - as counter-intuitive as it sounds, it just doesn't seem like you need the high pressure to realize reduced rolling resistance when you run tubeless. If you really want the higher pressure with a 29" tire I would make sure your tire is plenty snug on the rim - which usually means building up your rim strip. I would suggest trying it and see for yourself if you feel like the lower pressure tubeless setup seems slow to you. If you're still convinced you need to run high pressure wait until you have a little experience with tubeless. It took me a while to get a feel for when a tubeless conversion would work well. Now that I'm fairly confident in my tubeless abilities I would be more willing to try higher pressures -- after a few blowouts you can tend to get a little gun shy about over pressurizing your tires.

Good luck


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

^^ Thank you. Great info.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Various comments*

When I first went tubeless I had been running thornproof tubes with slime at 50psi.

Weight: Anything is lighter than this setup, but it made me flat proof for up to a year at a time - just like tubeless/WSS. I live in goathead/mesquite/cactus country, and running w/o sealant is equivalent to planning to go for a walk with your bike.

On pressure: I started at my original 50psi - and OMG! Felt like I was riding a pogo stick! The tires would bounce off of everything and were making scary rubbing-hand-over-balloon noises, too. Dropped to 35psi and achieved nerdvana. I think that high pressure in a MTB tubeless setup is asking for a bead blowout.

On using soapy water to seat tires: It's for lube, man! Without soap you will probably have the rimstrip/tape drug out of place as things seat. DAMHIK. This is why I went with the spray bottle for the soapy water - it reeeeally gets it in where you need it w/o needing huge sloppy amounts. Using sealant to paint the beads would leave all that chunkulation in there to prevent sealing - maybe if you used watered down latex, but I'd still worry about things sticking as the beads seat.

Sealant consistency: Slime should be kinda like fiberfill - and WSS should stay mixed for many days w/o significant settling. If the rubber chunks fall quickly to the bottom you don't have nearly enough fiber to seal holes. Did you use a complete bottle to mix? Shaken, not stirred?


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## maxtheheathen (Feb 27, 2007)

racerdave said:


> Anyone try non-ammonia latex?
> 
> https://www.fxsupply.com/materials/latex.html


I'm planning on trying a brew with this stuff.










Latex acrylic admix. It's an acrylic emulsion. Dries to a nice stretchy film, no ammonia or anything nasty enough to be mentioned on the MSDS. Viscosity is about like coffee creamer, seems just barely thicker than it needs to be.

Got some leftover from a mortar job, but it's fairly inexpensive, $18/gal.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I really hope the acrylic latex works, but my experience with acrylic latex (such as caulk) is that it dries real slow. So if this stuff dries slow, the holes will never seal because the pressure will push it out the hole before it seals. Ammonia has a high vapor pressure that is why it works in this application.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

*Finally got it to seal*



wadester said:


> On using soapy water to seat tires: It's for lube, man! Without soap you will probably have the rimstrip/tape drug out of place as things seat. DAMHIK. This is why I went with the spray bottle for the soapy water - it reeeeally gets it in where you need it w/o needing huge sloppy amounts. Using sealant to paint the beads would leave all that chunkulation in there to prevent sealing - maybe if you used watered down latex, but I'd still worry about things sticking as the beads seat.
> 
> Sealant consistency: Slime should be kinda like fiberfill - and WSS should stay mixed for many days w/o significant settling. If the rubber chunks fall quickly to the bottom you don't have nearly enough fiber to seal holes. Did you use a complete bottle to mix? Shaken, not stirred?


I removed the tires and cleaned the tubes and wheels thoroughly. Then I mixed a 20oz bottle of tubeless slime with the remaining 12oz of latex mold builder, and added 25% of the WSS mix to that. This new mix contains *significantly* less water/ antifreeze than the WSS mix, but all of the rubber particles stay suspended and the mix is still liquid enough to flow around inside the tire as fast as I could rotate the tire in my hands.

*This works like magic:
20 oz Slime tubeless
12 oz Latex Mold Builder
8 oz WSS mix. (1.6 oz latex, 1.6 oz Slime, 1.6 oz Antifreeze, 3.2 oz water).*

That's my recipe and I'm sticking to it!

I used soapy water on the tire bead to seat and followed the Stans instructions for the rest of the process. This morning both tires were sealed and held air.

I'm still not sure what happend with my original WSS mix, but it was way too watery to work. This is way too much and I attribute this to why mine didn't seal. My old mix was still bubbling wet out of my sidewalls by the way.


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## maxtheheathen (Feb 27, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> I really hope the acrylic latex works, but my experience with acrylic latex (such as caulk) is that it dries real slow. So if this stuff dries slow, the holes will never seal because the pressure will push it out the hole before it seals. Ammonia has a high vapor pressure that is why it works in this application.


This stuff seems to dry at about the same rate as the natural latex thinned to a similar consistency. Gonna try it out in an old tire on an extra wheel first.


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## Burnt-Orange (Dec 10, 2008)

anyone ever do a nitrogen fill with latex 
would it last longer?
just wondering


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

CommuterBoy said:


> I'll be running mountain wheels/tires on the new bike, just want to be able to crank up the air pressure for the occasional commute. Can I pump tubless tires up to pretty high pressures without worrying about it? I usually crank my tubed MTB up to 70 or so psi for the commute, then back down to 45 or so for trails.


Not that race results have anything to do with commuting, but I was able to finish 5th in the Dirty Kanza 200 mile gravel road race in 2008 on converted Schwalbe Marathon Cross 38c tires with only 50psi in them. You never need 70psi in a tubeless tire unless you're riding a road bike. Even professional road racers are only running 90psi in their tubeless tires, from what I've heard. That might not be true, but that's the word I've heard from one reliable source who should know.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Air is 70% nitrogen> probably no difference.


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## maxtheheathen (Feb 27, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> Air is 70% nitrogen> probably no difference.


As far the sealant drying up,

It does make a big difference when displacing the air while closing a jar of latex or especially polyurethane mold builder. In the case of latex i believe the lack of oxygen, and with polyurethane the lack of oxygen and water vapor. I believe the effect on polyurethane is far more dramatic.

Might be worth trying on a very well sealed tire that doesn't need topping up often.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

*Need help ...with homebrew sealant ...*

[Edit] A million apologies for my previous (garbled) post! My bad, and I feel like a real idjit now!

OK, been using Stan's sealant for a while, but really keen to try the WSS recipe. Here's my questions.

Living in Oz, so the term "Mold Builder" is virtually unknown round here. So I got 1 Liter of Shamrock Rubber Latex at a local art-supplies shop. Does this stuff look OK suitable?
Also was unable to source "Tubeless Slime" locally, so I bought some inner-tube Slime at local LBS. I understand the tubeless variety contains more rubber-chunks, but luckily I found some no-name slime in the shed, that while totally useless as sealant it does contain some chunky bits that resemble cracked pepper. So I'm considering mixing in some of this slime too.
Finally, I searched 5 different auto-parts stores for Propylene Glycol based anti-freeze, however I'm told it's unavailable here in Oz. Fortunately, I found a bottle of Castrol Anti-Freeze in my shed (it contains Ethylene Glycol @1100g/L), so I'm hoping this will work OK. I note it appears to be a highly concentrated EG solution (with no additives listed), so I'm considering watering it down somewhat. 
Any thoughts?
And once again, so sorry for my bad communication earlier!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

hootsmon said:


> I'm preparing to mixup my first batch of homesome Wade's


What exactly is your problem? Got ingredients? Read the recipe?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

*It's all in the prep*



hootsmon said:


> I'm preparing to mixup my first batch of homesome Wade's


I have a mixing shed in the back yard and I wear hip boots. :skep:

Just don't add the ingedients in the wrong order and you'll be fine.


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

wadester said:


> On pressure: I started at my original 50psi - and OMG! Felt like I was riding a pogo stick! The tires would bounce off of everything and were making scary rubbing-hand-over-balloon noises, too. Dropped to 35psi and achieved nerdvana. I think that high pressure in a MTB tubeless setup is asking for a bead blowout.


You are definitely correct about high pressure giving you a bead blowout!! The only bead blowout I had was when my compressor gauge broke, and I set my pressure to 60psi instead of 28psi, and my tire blew off on the trail.

I have always followed the same guidelines as Stan's recommends with his rim strips since ghetto tubeless is just a similar version. He says to not go over 40psi. I usually only go to 35psi to seal the tire and shake the sealant. (With ghetto tubeless you are not seating a tubeless bead, which sometimes needs high pressure to pop into place.)Then after I am sure I have a good seal I trim the excess rubber, and set my pressure. I am currently running 25psi front in a DHEA 2.3(which is almost a 2.5) and 27psi in back in a Minion DHF 2.3.

Here is the link where he discusses air pressure at set up. Read the last paragraph of Section 4.

http://www.notubes.com/support_detailed.php


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

hootsman: Ithink all your supplies will work and if they don't then we learn something. I would probably ditch the innertube slime and just use the chunky stuff though.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

yourdaguy said:


> hootsman: Ithink all your supplies will work and if they don't then we learn something. I would probably ditch the innertube slime and just use the chunky stuff though.


Thanks yourdaguy! Just on my way to the lab (I mean shed) right now to mix a small test-batch. If nothing blows up, I'll report back real soon 

[EDIT]Well after giving the slime component a bit of thought, I elected to use a 50-50 mixture of inner-tube Slime and "Never Flat" chunky stuff. My reasoning was I'm just discovering TLR type tyres with beefy sidewalls and casings, for which a sealant action is a bigger requirement, rather than puncture protection per se. But anyways, I mixed up a test-brew, which looks and feels exactly like it should....









Then for a quick test, I mounted-up a Bonty Jones XR 29er 2.2 TLR tyre on a Mavic 317 rim fitted with Stans tubeless rimstrip. Admittedly that Jones is a particularly bomb-proof tubeless tyre, but it all went well, so indications are good for WSS so far!


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

*Wadester's Homebrew vs CaffeLatex*

Here is a post I did recently regarding CaffeLatex, where I pulled a thorn out of a tire that had 3 scoops of CaffeLatex(CrappeExlax ) All it did was shoot out all 3 scoops, and then I cleaned it up and put in Homebrew, and it sealed up instantly.:eekster:

I just used a mixture of mold builder, and auto slime, and cheap 50/50 antifreeze mix. I put in a little more auto slime than latex, and just added the antifreeze until I had the consistency I wanted, and it worked just fine.:thumbsup:

Here is the link to the CaffeLatex vs Homebrew experience.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=575503&highlight=caffelatex


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

twowheelsdown2002 said:


> Here is a post I did recently regarding CaffeLatex, where I pulled a thorn out of a tire that had 3 scoops of CaffeLatex(CrappeExlax ) All it did was shoot out all 3 scoops, and then I cleaned it up and put in Homebrew, and it sealed up instantly.:eekster:
> 
> I just used a mixture of mold builder, and auto slime, and cheap 50/50 antifreeze mix. I put in a little more auto slime than latex, and just added the antifreeze until I had the consistency I wanted, and it worked just fine.:thumbsup:
> 
> ...


Wow, that's very interesting! Thanks for the info.


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## doralswheels (Jan 14, 2007)

Has anyone tried the foaming Caffe Latex sealant yet. I tried some in a tube, just to see if i could trust it and it seams to hold air (100psi) for 3 months in a 700x23 tire.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

doralswheels said:


> Has anyone tried the foaming Caffe Latex sealant yet. I tried some in a tube, just to see if i could trust it and it seams to hold air (100psi) for 3 months in a 700x23 tire.


Did you *read* the posts right above yours about Caffe Latex?


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## cstem (Jan 13, 2006)

Okay I jumped in and tried this to great effect so far!

I used the standard recipe (Mold release, anti-freeze, ATV slime and water) and had no issues. I slowly added the mold release to the liquid and stirred well.

I have filled the 29'r, my 26'r that I use to tow the toddler trailer, the trailer and a jogging stroller (treated the tubes on those). I kept the ATV Slime bottle since it had a nipple top and instead of using the supplied hose I cut the hose of a can of old Fix-a-Flat that had a screw on valve for schraeder which made treating the tubes really easy. The front tire of the 26 had dried out Stans in it and I just popped a bead and added- sealed right up!

No issues so far, very easy and I treated two 29r, two 26r, four 16 inch tubes and a 10 inch tube with the one batch! Nine tires on one batch, plus the fact that it will not dry out in two months sure sounds like a bit of a money saver to me (probably pennies when you account for labor, travel to pick the items at two stores, etc) but in the deal I got to reuse a pickle jar that will not end up in the dump, I used the equivalent liquid to five of the ATV Slime bottles- so four will not end up in the dump. I save on tubes, trips to get them and time/aggravation of changing them and of course, on the toddler stuff it is great not to have to stop to make a repair because they seemed to only flat when the baby was ready to be home and getting cranky! 

Thanks to the folks that pioneered this method!


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Can Wadester chime in on his latest additive to Wadesters Secret Sauce (WSS), the 1/2 teaspoon full. 
Also, Wade, what currently is the most effective mix that you've found to date and ratio of parts Liquid Latex Rubber, Slimes Tubeless, Ethylene Glycol Antifreeze, and water?


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## rockon6160 (Nov 17, 2008)

"Glitter is the herpes of craft supplies"

I was looking at Stans, but think I will stick with tubes. Some of these look really good though


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*State of the Sealant Message*



RandyBoy said:


> Can Wadester chime in on his latest additive to Wadesters Secret Sauce (WSS), the 1/2 teaspoon full.
> Also, Wade, what currently is the most effective mix that you've found to date and ratio of parts Liquid Latex Rubber, Slimes Tubeless, Ethylene Glycol Antifreeze, and water?


The two trials I've got running right now are:

Original recipe, with sodium alginate thickener (1/4 teaspoon per 2 scoops WSS). I've got a wheel running this since August w/o any issues, and I gave three other people the thickener to try - with no return report, which hopefully means no problems.

New 5-part recipe: Latex, 2 slime, 2 water. The slime uses Propylene Glycol as the liquid, and I'm wanting more chunkulation - so why not eliminate an ingredient? The consistency of N5/WSS is similar to the Thickened Original/WSS, and has twice as many chunks - and I've had a tire running this since early October w/o issues.

Unless something bad happens, I will be going with N5/WSS (WNSS? WLSS? WSS2?) for the next batch and for the future - but YMMV!

And I must say again - every version I've tried works so well that one data point takes a long time, so progress is slow. OTOH, it's all good! Use the Original Recipe for a sure thing or join us wild experimental risk-takers!


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Wade; I am one of the ones you sent the sample to. It has been running in 2 wheels without issues since shortly after you sent it (I think about 4 months)


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

wadester said:


> New 5-part recipe: Latex, 2 slime, 2 water. The slime uses Propylene Glycol as the liquid, and I'm wanting more chunkulation - so why not eliminate an ingredient? The consistency of N5/WSS is similar to the Thickened Original/WSS, and has twice as many chunks - and I've had a tire running this since early October w/o issues.


OK, just to clean this up a bit:

1 part Latex Mold Builder
2 parts Slime (*ATV*/Mower Sealant)
2 parts Water

Correct?

I'm assuming that the process is first adding water to mold builder (or is it reverse, mold builder to water?), then adding that mixture to the slime.

Correct?

What amount per tire are you using?

Lastly, propylene glycol is the "evironmentally friendly" antifreeze (as opposed to Ethylene Glycol aka Prestone), and as stated, part of the Slime recipe. I am thinking that every few months, you could simply add a squirt of PG to replenish any loss of viscosity, since most if not all of the "sauce" is still in there. Thoughts?


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

rockon6160 said:


> "Glitter is the herpes of craft supplies"
> 
> I was looking at Stans, but think I will stick with tubes. Some of these look really good though


All the recommendations have moved away from glitter though, so you can stay disease free!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Simplemind said:


> OK, just to clean this up a bit:
> 
> 1 part Latex Mold Builder
> 2 parts Slime (*ATV*/Mower Sealant)
> ...


Yes - this is the "latest" recipe, thicker w/o thickener.



Simplemind said:


> I'm assuming that the process is first adding water to mold builder (or is it reverse, mold builder to water?), then adding that mixture to the slime.
> 
> Correct?


I prefer to add the slime to the latex, stirring all the while, then thin with water


Simplemind said:


> What amount per tire are you using?


I use 2-3 scoops per 29x2.35 tire (Rampage!) The scoops are from old Stan's kits, I think they are 2oz each.



Simplemind said:


> Lastly, propylene glycol is the "evironmentally friendly" antifreeze (as opposed to Ethylene Glycol aka Prestone), and as stated, part of the Slime recipe. I am thinking that every few months, you could simply add a squirt of PG to replenish any loss of viscosity, since most if not all of the "sauce" is still in there. Thoughts?


If you look at the pics in this thread, you will see that the latex gets used up coating the tire and sealing holes- so putting in more of the diluting fluid would probably not help. You need more of the active stuff as well.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> Wade; I am one of the ones you sent the sample to. It has been running in 2 wheels without issues since shortly after you sent it (I think about 4 months)


Sa-Weet! No noticeable difference from "normal"? I think this applies to the "thicker" mix as well. So far so good. Datapoint is the first failure - whenever that happens.


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

One last item! 

What if you substitute Prop Glycol for the water ? :eekster:

My point is to _find a mixture that doesn't evaporate in the tire_!


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## party_wagon (Oct 10, 2008)

What are you guys using for rim strips/ect? I just take an old tube, cut the stem off w/ about 2 square inches left at the top. Stick the stem in the bike. Then I rap some yellow plumbers tape around the rim.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Simplemind said:


> One last item!
> 
> What if you substitute Prop Glycol for the water ? :eekster:
> 
> My point is to _find a mixture that doesn't evaporate in the tire_!


Hmmmmmm........ Water has always been in the mix as dirt-cheap universal solvent and filler. Rainman brought up the point that when you get sidewall/tread seapage, it's always a clear bright green antifreeze looking stuff. His opinion was that we should minimize the AF content, since it is most likely to ooze out.

I can't see anything else negative about your idea - so I'll say what I usually say: Go For IT! And be sure to report back.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have also noticed that the only thing that ever seems to leak out is the ethylene glycol. I am of the opinion that eliminating that would be a good thing. I like the new recipe but am still using the last of my old recipe with EG. When it is gone, I am going with the new recipe. Of the guys that have tried the old recipe with the new type antifreeze (the red stuff) has it leaked out too?? Just curious; but still going to try the antifreeze free recipe next.

It looks to me that either kind of antifreeze would inhibit sealing since it has almost zero vapor pressure. When you get a leak from say a thorn, the sealant flows into the hole and exposure to the air helps to dry it out and seal the hole. The antifreeze would not evaporate as readily as water and it looks like to me that it would slow the sealing process. On the Stans videos when he puts the ice pick through the tire, it seals almost instantly. I haven't had a tire I wanted to try that on, but it seems like the antifreeze would actually slow this reaction down.


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## party_wagon (Oct 10, 2008)

use something that dries fast. If it will dry out in a month then every two weeks put a little bit of water back in the tire. If you do this then your stuff will not dry out now will it?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

It may be that when you get a puncture, and sealant mix flows into it - the chunks and latex stick in the hole, but the carrier fluid (antifreeze and water) comes out. Rainman's said that the more antifreeze he put in, the more seeped out.

I don't think we'll ever get away from antifreeze in some amount. Slime uses propylene glycol/water as the carrier fluid, and so does Stan's. The new recipe just minimizes it.


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

wadester said:


> It may be that when you get a puncture, and sealant mix flows into it - the chunks and latex stick in the hole, but the carrier fluid (antifreeze and water) comes out. Rainman's said that the more antifreeze he put in, the more seeped out.
> 
> I don't think we'll ever get away from antifreeze in some amount. Slime uses propylene glycol/water as the carrier fluid, and so does Stan's. The new recipe just minimizes it.


I mixed the new batch as stated, however I used 1 part H2O and 1 part Propylene Glycol. 
So, we can name it the "*Holidaze Sauce*" (OK, not hollandaise and not holiday ......whatever) 

1 part Latex Mold Builder
2 parts Slime (ATV/Mower Sealant)
1 parts Water
1 part Propylene Glycol antifreeze

Will report back.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

*3 questions...*


Anyone considered substituting Polyethylene_glycol in place of EG or PG, as the stabilizer and for reducing evaporation. Can't promise it'd work, however I have used PEG successfully for stabilizing green timber (in wood-turning), and I remember it's relatively low-toxic.
Also, just wondering if Propylene Glyclol is preferred (over EG) purely because of its lower toxicity? Or are there other factors, like perhaps PG being kinder to the tire-compound?
And finally, just wondering whether latex-solution might be photo-sensitive? In other words, could UV work to catalyse the polymerization process?  The main reason I'm asking is because I notice that Stan's sealant comes packaged in black-plastic bottles (possibly to maximize shelf life)?
Sorry to be asking more questions than I have answers for.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

hootsmon said:


> Anyone considered substituting Polyethylene_glycol in place of EG or PG, as the stabilizer and for reducing evaporation. Can't promise it'd work, however I have used PEG successfully for stabilizing green timber (in wood-turning), and I remember it's relatively low-toxic.




Let's see - the link says that PEG is the basis of a number of laxatives, and sexual lubricants. It is also under investigation for use in body armor[15] and tattoos to monitor diabetes.[16]
What's not to like? 


hootsmon said:


> [*]Also, just wondering if Propylene Glyclol is preferred (over EG) purely because of its lower toxicity? Or are there other factors, like perhaps PG being kinder to the tire-compound?


Low-tox it is. I haven't seen anything to suggest that either/any glycol has an effect on tire rubber.


hootsmon said:


> [*]And finally, just wondering whether latex-solution might be photo-sensitive? In other words, could UV work to catalyse the polymerization process? The main reason I'm asking is because I notice that Stan's sealant comes packaged in black-plastic bottles (possibly to maximize shelf life)?



Many of us mix/keep sealant in clear glass or plastic. I don't keep mine in direct sunlight, but don't avoid light, and it keeps fine for many months w/o even forming a skin. I think Stan uses opaque containers because 1) Stan's sealant looks boring 2) That is a common cheap container - same as cheap motor oil comes in.


hootsmon said:


> Sorry to be asking more questions than I have answers for.


Your penance is to try PEG, since you've got or know where to get some.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

Good answer!


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

*Propylene Glycol supplies*

After a little research, I have discovered that food-grade Propylene Glycol is commonly used in *beer-chilling* applications. That's handy, cuz we enjoy a cold beer down-under. So anyway, if you're looking for food-grade PG in smallish quantities, then I'd suggest trying your local beverage-handling supplier.

Here in Oz, I found Andale Beer Dispensing most helpful.


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

*Feedback on latest recipe variation*

Well it looks like it's been a couple months since I mixed up my last batch of sealant. This time I used winshield washer fluid instead of anti-freeze. I switched out a set of tires that I had put the new sealant in right when I made it (I'm switching over to winter studded tires) and found the sealant inside the tires had become mostly gelled. I never flatted with these tires and I think it may have been fluid enough to still stop some leaks but definitely not liquid enough to circulate around the tires very well. I also noticed the jug of sealant I was using was considerably thicker than when I originally mixed it. FYI - the jug I used for storing the sealant and all other parts of the recipe were kept the same (except maybe slightly more latex used) so my 1st impression of this winshield washer fluid recipe is definitely a thumbs down. Doesn't look to me like this solution would last any longer than Stan's. My next batch will be back to the original recipe :thumbsup: (AGAIN).



bikerfish said:


> Wadster,
> 
> What part of the country do you live in? I.E. how cold does it get there? I need to make up a new batch and would love to find a recipe that was antifreeze free (I'm tired of feeling like I'm leaving an environmental bomb anytime I have problems with tubeless). Problem is it gets cold here in Nebraska so I need to have something that won't freeze up. Not sure if the Slime has enough anti-freezing compounds to keep the whole concoction from freezing so I'd be curious what your take is on the matter. I have a guy I ride with here that only uses latex and windshield washer fluid so I might give that recipe a try also.


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

bikerfish said:


> This time I used winshield washer fluid instead of anti-freeze.My next batch will be back to the original recipe :thumbsup: (AGAIN).


Mo detailed info would be good! 

What was the makeup of batch #1, batch #2, length of time in tire, etc.

Thanks


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

bikerfish said:


> Well it looks like it's been a couple months since I mixed up my last batch of sealant. This time I used winshield washer fluid instead of anti-freeze and found the sealant inside the tires had become mostly gelled.


What kind/brand of windshield washer fluid did you use? A lot of that is just isopropyl alcohol and soap - which would kinda be freeze-resistant - but don't know about latex/IPA interaction. Did it have an ammonia smell kinda like the latex?


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## Simplemind (Jul 17, 2006)

wadester said:


> What kind/brand of windshield washer fluid did you use? A lot of that is just isopropyl alcohol and soap - which would kinda be freeze-resistant - but don't know about latex/IPA interaction. Did it have an ammonia smell kinda like the latex?


I could never understand why anyone would want to use windshied washer fluid in the sealant formula. :nono: 
Here is a typical formula:
Water 97-98% weight
Methanol less than or equal to 1% by weight
2-Butoxyethanol less than or equal to 1% by weight.
Water, a bit of alcohol, and some surfactant.
Not much wonder it dries up in the tire!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Simplemind said:


> I could never understand why anyone would want to use windshied washer fluid in the sealant formula. :nono:


WWF usedta be ammonia water - kinda like Windex. Latex mold builder is kept "liquid" by adding ammonia. Add more ammonia, latex stays un-rubber longer was the idea (I think) but since it all became alky water there is no real point. As you noted.


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## maxtheheathen (Feb 27, 2007)

Just thought I'd share a little trailside macgyvering i used the other night.

Been running WSS, but had forgottten to top up for a while. Evidently it'd mostly dried up, hissing puncture, nothing coming out when I put the puncture down and bounce the wheel. 

After pumping up twice and only getting about three miles, I stop to put a tube in, but realized I've forgotten a wrench to get my Alfine hub off. Not stoked on pumping my tires up another six times to get home, I start brainstorming. An idea came to me, I dissasembled my pump, filled it with water, and injected it into my tire. This brought the sealant back to life, the puncture sealed and held for the nine miles home.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

maxtheheathen said:


> Just thought I'd share a little trailside macgyvering i used the other night.
> 
> Been running WSS, but had forgottten to top up for a while. Evidently it'd mostly dried up, hissing puncture, nothing coming out when I put the puncture down and bounce the wheel.
> 
> After pumping up twice and only getting about three miles, I stop to put a tube in, but realized I've forgotten a wrench to get my Alfine hub off. Not stoked on pumping my tires up another six times to get home, I start brainstorming. An idea came to me, I dissasembled my pump, filled it with water, and injected it into my tire. This brought the sealant back to life, the puncture sealed and held for the nine miles home.


Awesome, just awesome. Sometimes the trouble shooting is more satisfying than the actual solution, huh. Well done! (And filed away in the memory bank for future reference, thanks.) :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Just mixed up my first batch:

1 part slime plus 3 parts RV antifreeze (with the PG rather than EG), gave it a good shake.

Then added 1 part mold builder and gave another good shake.

Everything mixed perfectly.

Added 4 oz to each wheel, mounted a Racing Ralph up front and a Wierwolf on the back. Sprayed a little washing liquid and water mix onto the bead and went to work with a floor pump.

Both tires seated with a satisfying "pop" onto a Stans Arch and seem to hold air just fine.

I'll check them tomorrow and see if they go flat overnight.

Total cost:

Mold Builder C$12.50 (had a 50% off coupon)
Slime: C$12.99
RV Coolant: C$3.99
Killing time on a cold winter afternoon: Priceless

12oz of mixed sauce is still in the jar, if this works I'll do my other bike.

There's enough mold builder left for at least another 20oz batch as and when I need it.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread.


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## bigherc (Oct 21, 2008)

Alright so I'm getting ready to try this, the one thing that is still holding me up is the antifreeze, I bought the cheap stuff but it is a antifreeze/coolant, didn't see anything with just antifreeze, is this the right stuff? It has more than just the EG in it, that's why I am hesitant to use it, it also has Diethylene glycol, sodium 2-ethyl hexanoate and sodium neodecanoate, is this going to work or do I have the wrong stuff?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Antifreeze and coolant is the right stuff.


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## bigherc (Oct 21, 2008)

Ok, I tried this again last night, I used two layers of the stans tape and then my og rim stirp, and then stans tubless strip on top of that, the first time I just used the og strip per the stans website reconmendation but I burped the tire on the first ride so I thought it might not be sealed tight enough so I added the yellow tape, the tire sealed really fast both ways. Oh it's a WTb all mountain rim with a new crossmark tire. Anyways checked it this morning and didn't lose any air pressure, when I aired it up I heard tire seat with a pop, so that would all indicate that things are good right? My only question is the rim is pretty true, but it seems like the tire is not perfectly round, so I'm worried that it is not seated evenly all around, but if this is the case wouldn't it leak air? I'm thinking this will probably improve with a little riding, but not sure. Anybody deal with this kind of thing?


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Update:

24 hours later and both tires are still holding air nicely.

Now if the snow would ease up a little I could go out and ride later.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I am a little concerned that the tire might not be totally seated from your description.


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## bigherc (Oct 21, 2008)

So what do you suggest? Can I deflate it and soap it up and reinflate without doing anything else? When I inflated it I didn't have any seapage out of the bead really, if so not for more that a second or two, it seamed to seal up really fast.


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## Treetrimmer (Dec 8, 2008)

*mgvr'n*



maxtheheathen said:


> Just thought I'd share a little trailside macgyvering i used the other night.
> 
> Been running WSS, but had forgottten to top up for a while. Evidently it'd mostly dried up, hissing puncture, nothing coming out when I put the puncture down and bounce the wheel.
> 
> After pumping up twice and only getting about three miles, I stop to put a tube in, but realized I've forgotten a wrench to get my Alfine hub off. Not stoked on pumping my tires up another six times to get home, I start brainstorming. An idea came to me, I dissasembled my pump, filled it with water, and injected it into my tire. This brought the sealant back to life, the puncture sealed and held for the nine miles home.


Brilliant! I wish I thought of this when mine dried up last summer! I will put this one in the bag of tricks.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

bigherc: I am concerned that it is not seated but not convinced that it is not seated. I have had tires that were not perfectly made. I would just check all around both sides by looking and pushing in very hard with your thumbs while it is aired up. If it passes visual inspection and the push test, all around on both sides it is probably ok.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

bigherc said:


> So what do you suggest? Can I deflate it and soap it up and reinflate without doing anything else? When I inflated it I didn't have any seapage out of the bead really, if so not for more that a second or two, it seamed to seal up really fast.


Look around the outside of the rim, the tires always have a raised ridge circle around that shows just above the rim. I was told by a tire rep that it is there so you can see if the tire is seated. If it is even all the way round, you are fine.

Many tires have a wobble, and I think when we ran tubes, we never noticed. Tubeless makes us a little more careful in getting the beads seated, and then we notice the wobble.  I notice a little wobble in all the tires I have with four wheel sets tubeless; the knobbier they are the more I notice. As long as you see that ring above the rim, you should be fine.


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## bigherc (Oct 21, 2008)

Thanks for the tips guys, I checked that line Slo, it seems to be even all the way around, also took it on a short 5 mile ride of fire road yesterday and it seems alright, I checked the pressure when I got to my truck and I did lose a pound or two, left it alone and checked it in the morning and the pressure was exactly the same and found a small spot on the edge of the rim where some fluid may have came out and sealed it up, oh also forgot to mention that I defliated the tire before the ride just to see how the bead felt and it was all tight all the way around, but I just reinflated it and went for a ride within a hour of doing it so this may account for the small spot in the edge of the rim. Also, check the rim and seems it has a small flat spot so this is also causing a lot of the problem. I think I am going to leave it for now, take it on another ride tomorrow and see if the pressure stay's the same or if I have any problems and then go from there, but I'm thinking it is probably good. Thanks again for the help guys!
Oh and my brew was:
1 part mold builder
2 parts slime with about ten onces of Stans to make up for my lack of slime
1/2 part coolant
1 1/2 water
I liked the idea of at least a little coolant in there


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## Visicypher (Aug 5, 2004)

anyone try aquaseal on the sidewalls to prevent the weeping? just a thought.


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## maxtheheathen (Feb 27, 2007)

Visicypher said:


> anyone try aquaseal on the sidewalls to prevent the weeping? just a thought.


I brush the inside of the sidewalls with rubber cement when mounting a new tire. Seals most of the sidewall leaks, so you use less sealant. Doesn't completely eliminate weeping, but I'd say drastically reduced.


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## Sometimes (Jun 21, 2009)

*Anyone else tried Schwinn Tire Sealant?*









I bought it at Target for $4.84. Not quite enough to do two tires based on the recommendation of 4-5 fl oz per tire when there's only 7.5 fl oz in the bottle but I actually used it as a supplement on 3 tubeless tires that I've Slimed. Well, actually two were previously Slimed & Fix-A-Flat'ed while the third was only Slimed & Schwinned .

Looks promising if the packaging claims are to be believed. Especially notable are:

Non-flammable
Non explosive
Water Soluble
No CFC's
Keeps tires fully inflated and *cool* ... to last longer (bolding mine)
Seals are permanent and inhibit corrosion
Effective protect from -34*F to 240*F.
Seals punctures up to 1/8" in diameter


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## Bohump (Oct 10, 2008)

I have been experimenting with some formulas myself. I have used Stan's for about 10 years now so listen up. First, the valve stem is very important. I tried the ghetto ones and have had poor luck. If you have schrader valves the following option works great or you can drill your rim holes out to Schroeder (or is that schrader) size which is what I did. Sealant just work better with schrader valves because the big hole allows you to put it through the hole unlike presta valves. 
For valve stems I went to Big O auto tires and got some tubeless valve stems for trucks/cars two bucks a piece. They push through the valve stem hole then a nut and rubber grommet lock them to the inside of the rim. Not ghetto but cheap enough and work "much" better. Then I cut my rim strip from an old tube. 
1) Tape the inside of the rim with fiberglass tape ie heavy duty packing tape. This helps seal the spokes.
2) Add the rim strip
3) Push the valve stem on and tighten the nut to the inside. You need to make a small hole in the rim strip.
4) Put one side of the tire on the rim. 
5) Hold the tire and rim vertical/up and add the sealant to the tire at this time rather than waiting until the tire is totally on the rim. 
6) Keep holding the tire/rim vertical and put the other side of the tire on the rim. You can generally do this by hand without tire tools.
5) Pump up with electric pump or co2.
6) Spin tire and hold horizontal on each side to seat each side wall or bead. 

I have found you do not need special tubeless tires or rims for this to work. I have also found that a Kevlar reinforced tire (not just bead) really helps, endures higher pressure, less prone to blowups or blow offs, and is less prone to sidewall damage. 

I just use Stan's but I also tried
1 gallon Sherwin Williams exterior latex paint white.
1 gallon Benjamin Moore latex enamel.
Not sure how it works on the bike but my barn looks great. 

I also tried
1 part fertilizer
1 part kerosene
It is the bomb.


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## William_Cannon (May 5, 2009)

A few of you have been bringing up weeping sidewalls. After going to the kevlar beaded version of the weirwolf and raptor, I thought I fixed my weeping problem. However, I found both tires were weeping moderately when I took a month break from riding (not my choice). I'm guessing the weeping has something to do with the WSS separating.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

^^ but it doesn't separate in storage ??? 

I've just re-read this thread cover to cover...awesome info. I've still never gone tubeless, but I will be the sharpest tool in the shed when I do. Thanks for the info. 

I have an answer to a question from page 3 about slime and freezing temps... I commute all winter in the sierras...down to zero or below, several months of teens/twenties... I have had the standard (no-chunks) slime go goopy on me in my tubes at temps around the low teens. It feels like a clown bike for the first few minutes of the ride, with heavy spots in the tires... then it loosens up after a while and feels normal...so it doesn't exactly freeze, but it gets thicker at lower temps (around 13* F or so)

I also have the ATV slime (with the chunks) in...imagine this...my ATV. I have one tire with a pretty good hole in it that the slime manages to keep sealed up pretty well all winter. It definitely does not freeze...the quad sat in my shop last month in temperatures of 10 below zero (F). (the slime has been in there well over 1.5 years, by the way) I went out to fire it up to save the battery at 5 or 6 below zero, and I had parked it with the hole up...the tire was low, so I hit it with the compressor and rolled the tire so the hole was at the bottom, and it sealed it right up...little green spot on the snow where it was sitting...the stuff was definitely in liquid form while in a tire at several degrees below zero. (no mix, just straight up slime)

...that has been my experience with the two types at least. Take it for whatever its worth. One of my major concerns with going tubeless has been the cold...but I'm not as concerned as I used to be. I'm expecting much longer life out of my goo throughout the winter months.


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## Yorto (Sep 23, 2009)

I have just followed the:
1 part Latex Mold Builder
2 parts Slime tyre sealant
2 parts Water.

Maybe not exact but pretty much spot on. I did a mix the other day on my old 26" and the front 29" tyre and was much thicker then this so I am a bit worried now but at least I can judge to see what works best here on the East coast of Australia.


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## Kenrow (Dec 24, 2008)

*Latest WSS Recipe*



wadester said:


> New 5-part recipe: Latex, 2 slime, 2 water. The slime uses Propylene Glycol as the liquid, and I'm wanting more chunkulation - so why not eliminate an ingredient? The consistency of N5/WSS is similar to the Thickened Original/WSS, and has twice as many chunks - and I've had a tire running this since early October w/o issues.
> 
> Unless something bad happens, I will be going with N5/WSS (WNSS? WLSS? WSS2?) for the next batch and for the future - but YMMV!


Shouldn't the new WSS recipe be placed in the front of the thread so those that are too time constrained (or lazy) to read through 4 pages would know that the recipe has changed. I myself found the whole thread very interesting but other might miss this detail&#8230;


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Kenrow said:


> Shouldn't the new WSS recipe be placed in the front of the thread so those that are too time constrained (or lazy) to read through 4 pages would know that the recipe has changed. I myself found the whole thread very interesting but other might miss this detail&#8230;


Yah, maybe. But then why is this thread "hidden" in 29er bikes? Logic has nothing to do with it. You must use your google-fu to find it, or just get lucky.

You must also realize that ANY version of WSS is good stuff - this thread is for us experimentalists what want it to be the most' bestest. The recipe you quoted is merely the latest experiment and is not tested enough to be released to the (lazy) masses.

Oh, and it keeps out the lazy riff-raff.:thumbsup:


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Some good info on sealant options I came across on velonews this morning: http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/01/cyclocross/technical-faq-tire-sealants_102346


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## FancyPete (Jun 6, 2007)

This might be far fetched, but hear me out. Earlier in this thread isleblue65 suggested using nitrogen to help keep rubber in a liquid state. What if we used nitrogen to inflate our tires? Wouldn't that keep the sealant in a liquid state longer?

BTW, I've been using Mold Builder and water 1:1 for a couple years now, and it works great. If you haven't tried it, it's simple and it seals pretty well for me.


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

FancyPete said:


> This might be far fetched, but hear me out. Earlier in this thread isleblue65 suggested using nitrogen to help keep rubber in a liquid state. What if we used nitrogen to inflate our tires? Wouldn't that keep the sealant in a liquid state longer?
> 
> BTW, I've been using Mold Builder and water 1:1 for a couple years now, and it works great. If you haven't tried it, it's simple and it seals pretty well for me.


I don't think this is far-fetched... In fact, I've discussed it with a few folks before. I'm not sure what it'd do, but it's probably worth trying out. That said, it'd be awfully expensive for the potential benefits, unless you could somehow get it to stay in the tire for much, much longer (which theoretically you could due to the increased molecule size of Nitrogen not being able to escape through the tire sidewall as easily).


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

If nitrogen would work, we are already using it. Air is over 70% nitrogen. If those larger molecules stayed in the tire when the oxygen escaped, eventually after several refillings we would have nothing but nitrogen in the tire.

Actually, I just looked it up: air is over 78% nitrogen.


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> If nitrogen would work, we are already using it. Air is over 70% nitrogen. If those larger molecules stayed in the tire when the oxygen escaped, eventually after several refillings we would have nothing but nitrogen in the tire.
> 
> Actually, I just looked it up: air is over 78% nitrogen.


I think a fart bumps it up to 84%...


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

FancyPete said:


> This might be far fetched, but hear me out. Earlier in this thread isleblue65 suggested using nitrogen to help keep rubber in a liquid state. What if we used nitrogen to inflate our tires? Wouldn't that keep the sealant in a liquid state longer?


Nitrogen vs air?
The point for latex storage is to exclude oxygen, which will react with the latex. I believe the reaction is slow enough that in the dynamic environment of a tire, it won't be noticeable. The sealant will be used up plugging holes faster.

Other benefits of nitrogen:

Bigger molecule, leaks slower. Nitrogen molecules are about 3% bigger than oxygen (300 picometers vs 292). There isn't enough volume of other components of air to check on them.

Nitrogen heats up slower (higher heat capacity - at constant pressure, nitrogen=1.04 kJ/kgK, oxygen=.919kJ/kgK, or 13% higher). If your mtb tires are getting hot enough for this to matter, you should seek a career in racing.

Nitrogen is dry, air is wet. Hello - latex sealant contains water. Using dry nitrogen will just dry out your sealant a bit faster.


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## Diggidy (Jan 1, 2008)

So I just mixed up two jars of WSS.

I didn't measure it out all that well, basically I split a small jar of mold builder between both jars, a small tube of auto slime, and then filled the rest of the jar with PG RV Antifreeze.

However, I don't like that there's not a LOT of particulate in the mix (Some rubber from the slime, but it really thinned out, and also might be too large of particles to get a nice bead seal.

SO, off to the internet I went. Found this website and found what might be the holy grail of particulate:

http://www.blockheadstamps.com/catalog/Beads/Micro Marbles/Glass-Marbles

many different sizes, CHEAP, sphere shaped for best sealing, AND they are colored for all you stylish bastards out there. I think I'm going to order some red (so I can see them in the mixture/how well they are working) of the 1mm and .5 mm beads and add them to my mix.


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## ricot83 (Jul 2, 2008)

I was just thinking what about those little silica packets for the bigger holes and tears and rubber shavings for tiny holes


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

wadester said:


> Nitrogen vs air?
> The point for latex storage is to exclude oxygen, which will react with the latex. I believe the reaction is slow enough that in the dynamic environment of a tire, it won't be noticeable. The sealant will be used up plugging holes faster.
> 
> Other benefits of nitrogen:
> ...


I agree with all your advantages of nitrogen, although I am not sure how measurable vs. theoretical they would be. One other advantage is less degradation of the tire rubber by oxidation. For truck tires this is a big deal, and truck fleets are using nitrogen more and more. 
One thing I'm not sure of is oxygens role, if any, in coagulating latex. It will react, I agree, but rubber stays in aqueous solution by stabilization with high pH, like with ammonia. Lowering pH, adding a solvent, or letting the water evaporate are ways to get the latex to coagulate. In a tire, its the evaporation effect, or perhaps ammonia leaving the solution faster than the water, lowering the pH over time. 
I'm not sure if nitrogen in the tire would have any advantage over oxygen in preventing coagulation or drying out of the latex.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

*Paper fibres in homebrew?*



CommuterBoy said:


> Some good info on sealant options I came across on velonews this morning: http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/01/cyclocross/technical-faq-tire-sealants_102346


Thanks for this interesting link, CommuterBoy. My curiousity was piqued by Lennard Zinn's mention of using paper-fibres, to help plug leaks. So has anyone considered adding paper-pulp to a homebrew sealant mix? And if so, what sort of paper?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

smilinsteve said:


> I agree with all your advantages of nitrogen, although I am not sure how measurable vs. theoretical they would be. One other advantage is less degradation of the tire rubber by oxidation. For truck tires this is a big deal, and truck fleets are using nitrogen more and more.
> One thing I'm not sure of is oxygens role, if any, in coagulating latex. It will react, I agree, but rubber stays in aqueous solution by stabilization with high pH, like with ammonia. Lowering pH, adding a solvent, or letting the water evaporate are ways to get the latex to coagulate. In a tire, its the evaporation effect, or perhaps ammonia leaving the solution faster than the water, lowering the pH over time.
> I'm not sure if nitrogen in the tire would have any advantage over oxygen in preventing coagulation or drying out of the latex.


Truck tires carry heavy loads, and run at highway speed - so they are at high temperatures for long periods of time. Taking oxygen and water out would certainly pay off, especially over the, uh, long haul.



hootsmon said:


> Thanks for this interesting link, CommuterBoy. My curiousity was piqued by Lennard Zinn's mention of using paper-fibres, to help plug leaks. So has anyone considered adding paper-pulp to a homebrew sealant mix? And if so, what sort of paper?


Currently our mix uses Slime for both fibers and chunks, but we keep coming back to the idea of improving/adding to the things that plug holes. If you tease a fiber out of some Slime, they look like cotton or poly-sumpin. I recall a sealant from my youth: Flat Pruf. It was brown and used cellulose fiber. It worked fine. If you look up paper making you find many projects reusing paper (like newsprint) for making your own paper - I found a site for more serious paper making supplies, and they would sell you a pound of cotton "linters" (4$/lb http://www.custompaper.com/papermaking_supplies.html ) for making better quality paper. This tempts me more than wood pulp. Issues would be fiber diameter, length, and strength.

Someone else found glass microbeads: 
http://www.blockheadstamps.com/catal.../Glass-Marbles 
These are in the same class as the rubber chunks - I wonder about smooth spheres vs rough chunks. So here's links: http://www.gtrcrumbrubber.com/products.html or http://www.softsandrubber.com/ colors! $10/qrtrpint, but how much would you need? Tubeless Slime doesn't seem to have more than maybe teaspoon/scoop

Several of us tried glitter, but found it not to really help much - and actually to cause bead sealing issues. "glitter is the herpes of arts and crafts". The plate shape had promise for sealing larger holes/rips, but didn't seem to line up well - going in edgewise vs the flat plate laying over the hole.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

I am about to go tubeless for the first time, and already plunked out the dough for stans. 
So, I would like to _not_ spend a bunch more money on this project, but on the other hand do not want to have dried out sealant in 3 months (which is when the biking season will really start around here). 
So, starting with Stans, what should I add? Windex, antifreeze? Those things are around the house. Slime? That's not too expensive, so I guess I could get some if it would help..


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2010)

Curious if anyone has tried microballoons. Modelling and fiberglass supply places have a variety of potentially interesting products, for example: http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Fillers/fillers.html


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

smilinsteve said:


> I am about to go tubeless for the first time, and already plunked out the dough for stans.
> So, I would like to _not_ spend a bunch more money on this project, but on the other hand do not want to have dried out sealant in 3 months (which is when the biking season will really start around here).
> So, starting with Stans, what should I add? Windex, antifreeze? Those things are around the house. Slime? That's not too expensive, so I guess I could get some if it would help..


I am one of a few who have added Slime (1/3) to Stans (2/3) and found that it weeps constantly around the bead and sidewalls, and I seemed to get bigger koosh boogers. I have gone back to Stans with better results. It does dry out, but I think this is why it works. I have a Stans injector and just add an ounce at about three months time, very easy and quick. When my current supply is gone, I will mix up some WSS and use it.


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## alexkraemer (Jul 30, 2007)

Just got a bunch of rim strips today, so I'll be giving WSSv2 a go.
Maxxis Ignitor on Race Lite 29er (using Bontrager strip and stem)
Michelin XC AT on Velocity VXC with Stans +4
Weirwolf LT 2.55 on Flow (after I get my first wheelbuild attempt! done)


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

alexkraemer said:


> Just got a bunch of rim strips today, so I'll be giving WSSv2 a go.
> Maxxis Ignitor on Race Lite 29er (using Bontrager strip and stem)
> Michelin XC AT on Velocity VXC with Stans +4
> Weirwolf LT 2.55 on Flow (after I get my first wheelbuild attempt! done)


Just an FYI, I'm running the Michelin XC AT 29er on Stans Flow wheels and mixed a variation of WSS, but with LESS anti-freeze than Wade uses. It took about 2 weeks for air loss to significantly slow down, and anti-freeze is still bubbling out of the sidewalls 4 weeks after installing these tires/ adding the sealant.

Compared to Kenda SB8s that sealed up in 2 days and sidewall leaks stopped completely in 4 days, the Michelins seem to have much more porus sidewalls.

This is my mix BTW:

20 oz Slime tubeless
12 oz Latex Mold Builder
8 oz WSS mix. (1.6 oz latex, 1.6 oz Slime, 1.6 oz Antifreeze, 3.2 oz water).

I'm not sure why my anti-freeze is still weeping from the sidewalls when there's hardly any in the mix? Does Slime Tubeless contain a lot of anti-freeze?


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## sean salach (Sep 15, 2007)

sean salach said:


> just mixed up my first ever batch of tubeless brew. i used:
> 
> @1 part latex mold builder
> @1 part water
> ...


For what it's worth, I just removed this tire from the rim yesterday for the first time since initially airing it up. I had never added air at all since that first time. There was still some pressure in it, but not much. The mixture was still liquid and there were no boogers, except for the little solidified bits around the bead. The original mixture is still the same consistency as the day I mixed it in it's container in my unheated, detached garage. Temps have been as high as 80F in the summer, and down to -20ishF this winter.

So, that's ten months in one tire, and no signs of degradation. If you live in a hotter or more humid climate you're results may vary.


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## mtnbiker72 (Jan 22, 2007)

sean salach said:


> For what it's worth, I just removed this tire from the rim yesterday for the first time since initially airing it up. I had never added air at all since that first time. There was still some pressure in it, but not much. The mixture was still liquid and there were no boogers, except for the little solidified bits around the bead. The original mixture is still the same consistency as the day I mixed it in it's container in my unheated, detached garage. Temps have been as high as 80F in the summer, and down to -20ishF this winter.
> 
> So, that's ten months in one tire, and no signs of degradation. If you live in a hotter or more humid climate you're results may vary.


I recently switched my formula to use Sierra as well (from windshield washer fluid that contained methanol and ethylene glycol)...just trying to do my part


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

isleblue65 said:


> It took about 2 weeks for air loss to significantly slow down, and anti-freeze is still bubbling out of the sidewalls 4 weeks after installing these tires/ adding the sealant.
> 
> Compared to Kenda SB8s that sealed up in 2 days and sidewall leaks stopped completely in 4 days, the Michelins seem to have much more porus sidewalls.


Did you lay them down and flip them during that process? I had a Prowler that took three days of shaking, flipping twice a day, and laying flat to finally seal. My Michelin on an Arch sealed in 30 minutes per side and has been air tight for four months now. There can be huge differences in the same tire from batch to batch.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

There is variation in Prowlers. Both mine came one my Niner and my rear continues to weep a little green from time to time and my front never does. I used exactly the same procedure, amount, etc. except that I have added a little more sealant to the rear over time because of the leakage.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

slocaus said:


> Did you lay them down and flip them during that process? I had a Prowler that took three days of shaking, flipping twice a day, and laying flat to finally seal. My Michelin on an Arch sealed in 30 minutes per side and has been air tight for four months now. There can be huge differences in the same tire from batch to batch.


I did the shake and rotate followed by laying them down for a night and a day, flipping them over intermittently 3 to 4 times during that period. That's all, then I installed them. The air loss is now minimal, so I just don't worry about the continued green weeping. Also, the warmest temperature I've been riding in since installing the Michelins is 18 degrees F, and average temperature is about 10 degrees. When I first set up the Kenda Small Block 8s, the temps were in the 50s. I don't know if this could contribute to the slime not coating the tires, filling the weep holes and drying? I guess summer time will be the test.


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## alexkraemer (Jul 30, 2007)

isleblue65 said:


> Just an FYI, I'm running the Michelin XC AT 29er on Stans Flow wheels and mixed a variation of WSS, but with LESS anti-freeze than Wade uses. It took about 2 weeks for air loss to significantly slow down, and anti-freeze is still bubbling out of the sidewalls 4 weeks after installing these tires/ adding the sealant.
> 
> Compared to Kenda SB8s that sealed up in 2 days and sidewall leaks stopped completely in 4 days, the Michelins seem to have much more porus sidewalls.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I have a small bottle of stans that I may use for that wheel and use the WSSv2 for the rest.


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## alexkraemer (Jul 30, 2007)

The michellin sealed up fine,what didn't seal up was the +4 Stans strip. It leaked right where the strip met the valve hole. I fought with it for about 4 attempts before it stopped hissing at me. I love my VXC rim, but that was a royal pain with the tubeless.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

*Here's a commercial formula*

This is just FYI. Ran across Ride-On tire sealant ( http://www.ride-on.com )on a moto forum - comparable to Slime. They've got an old timey MSDS 
( http://www.ride-on.com/pdf/MSDS_4-08-02.pdf ) that gives their proportions:

Ingredient(s) CAS Number % (by weight)
Ethylene Glycol 107-21-1 35-55
Water 7732-18-5 45-65
Fibers and fillers (no asbestos, ceramics, or glass) Proprietary 3-6
Non-heavy metal based corrosion inhibitors Proprietary 1.5-4
Balance other ingredients that are either: 
A) Not classified by the OSHA Communication Standard to be Hazardous, or
B) Present in concentrations less than 1% (less than .1% for carcinogens) in this product
less than 1%

So you've got your watered down antifreeze, with a whopping 3-6% by weight chunkulation. And while I will say that fibers and such are light, that don't seem like much.


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

After studying this great thread, and due to dificulties in getting supplies, I decided to make a brew using what I could get online: 1 part Stans, and 1 Part Slime (for UST tires)

My main concern with using Stans on its own was with it drying out quickly (just in the middle of an Australia summer, so averaging 30 - 32 degress C here at the moment)

I set it up about a month ago and had been working fine, however last week I noticed that when I turned the wheel about a 1/4 turn, I could hear something moving inside. 

Then when I went on a particularly rocky ride yesterday, I got a 5mm tear in my sidewall, and the tire went straight down without any sealant trying to block the hole. I took the wheel off and tried re-inflating the tire and positioned it so that sealant was covering the hole. This didn't work, with just sealant spitting out.

So I went to put a tube in, and pulled out a big booger from inside the tire. There still seemed to be a mix of liquid sealant in there, just no chunks left to fill the hole.

So just wondering if anyone can explain why this happened after such a short time? It seems like this mix isn't going to work for me, so I may just use Stans on its own, and keep the slime until I can find some liquid latex. From what I've heard, Stans seems to last about 3 months over here, before drying out.

Does anyone have any suggestion as to how to get Stans to last any longer (I bought 16oz of it so I'll be using it for a while! ) 

Thanks in advance.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

If you used the Stans/ Slime mix and this is sealing punctures fine, with the only problem being it dries out too fast, you could try adding some water or water with a touch of Ethyl Glycol. I would have thought that the Glycol already in the Slime would prolong the life of the mix, but since it didn't last as long as you wanted, a bit more may help. Liquid latex would help to seal punctures, but won't do much for the drying out issue.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm also not too happy with the Stan's drying issue. How does straight slime tubeless work?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

smilinsteve said:


> I'm also not too happy with the Stan's drying issue. How does straight slime tubeless work?


If it does not dry, it will not seal!

It dries when it hits the air, there is air in the tire, and the tires are porous, so some liquid is lost. Just give it an ounce or two of new fluid every 2-4 months depending on the heat/humidity of your climate. If you use the NoTubes injector, it is simple; it takes me five minutes to do seven wheels.

My experience with Slime products is not near as good as Stans, but about 10 times messier when it comes out. Ugh. I will deal with the koosh balls and drying out for the ease of use and superior sealing, in my experience.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

xcbarny said:


> Does anyone have any suggestion as to how to get Stans to last any longer (I bought 16oz of it so I'll be using it for a while! )
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Sorry, no real help. Several other folks have found that mixing Stan's and Slime boogers things up quickly. You're probably better off running straight Stan's than mixing it.

Since you can get Slime - can you get the new latex-mix version: Slime Pro? It costs more than Stan's, but if it lasts longer that's ok. No one has reported using it, so YMMV.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

Someone suggested ammonia water to make stans last longer (windex?). This makes sense since ammonia is what stabilizes latex (prevents coagulation), but that would also dilute the mix.


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

isleblue65 said:


> If you used the Stans/ Slime mix and this is sealing punctures fine, with the only problem being it dries out too fast, you could try adding some water or water with a touch of Ethyl Glycol. I would have thought that the Glycol already in the Slime would prolong the life of the mix, but since it didn't last as long as you wanted, a bit more may help. Liquid latex would help to seal punctures, but won't do much for the drying out issue.


It didn't last long enough for me to see if it actually sealed a puncture. We don't get Goat Heads or anything else like that in Brisbane, The main cause of tire failure is sidewall tear. I had my Maxxis Crossmark on for just 4 weeks before it tore.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

xcbarny said:


> It didn't last long enough for me to see if it actually sealed a puncture. We don't get Goat Heads or anything else like that in Brisbane, The main cause of tire failure is sidewall tear. I had my Maxxis Crossmark on for just 4 weeks before it tore.


G'day xcbarny,
Sorry to hear about your tyre failure. BTW, I'm in Brisbane too, and I know what you're saying about Stan's (and similar) sealants drying out rapidly in our summer heat. While I can't help with your Stan's brew, you're more than welcome to try out a sample of WSS homebrew sealant. My WSS is made from affordable, non-toxic, locally available supplies, and I'm pretty happy with its performance so far. Though I'm still 'finessing' the water-content a bit, to make it last a little longer. Just let me know if you're interested.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

hootsmon said:


> G'day xcbarny,
> Sorry to hear about your tyre failure. BTW, I'm in Brisbane too, and I know what you're saying about Stan's (and similar) sealants drying out rapidly in our summer heat. While I can't help with your Stan's brew, you're more than welcome to try out a sample of WSS homebrew sealant. My WSS is made from affordable, non-toxic, locally available supplies, and I'm pretty happy with its performance so far. Though I'm still 'finessing' the water-content a bit, to make it last a little longer. Just let me know if you're interested.


You could try adding some liquid latex as well. As Smilinsteve says, there is quite a bit of ammonia in L.L., and this might help make Stans last a bit longer. The problem I'm having is quite the opposite as yours. My modified WSS is bubbling green anti-freeze from the sidewalls. Of course I've been riding in temps down to -20 deg C on snow, so summer will be the real test!

By the way, I bought my '65 Cooper S from a guy in Brisbane (Pacific Pines actually) and shipped it over. I could tell by how heat cracked the interior was when I got it that the Gold Coast is a HOT place!



I run 29s on my bike and 10s on the Mini.


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

hootsmon said:


> G'day xcbarny,
> Sorry to hear about your tyre failure. BTW, I'm in Brisbane too, and I know what you're saying about Stan's (and similar) sealants drying out rapidly in our summer heat. While I can't help with your Stan's brew, you're more than welcome to try out a sample of WSS homebrew sealant. My WSS is made from affordable, non-toxic, locally available supplies, and I'm pretty happy with its performance so far. Though I'm still 'finessing' the water-content a bit, to make it last a little longer. Just let me know if you're interested.


Thanks for the offer Hootsmon. I bought a load of Stans sealant, so I guess I wanted to try to get that to work a bit better for me. I may take you up on your offer when I use up my supplies.

So how long are you getting out of your homebrew mix?

I'm also running the Supercheap Liquid patch in my front tire. Have you tried this? It seams reasonable priced, and at least its available locally. For me it seems to be seeping from the bead more than with the Stans / Slime setup, maybe this suggests that it doesn't dry up as quickly? And may suggest that it doesn't fix punctures as quickly, but I haven't had a puncture to test this yet.

My next test is to run a mix of Stans and Liquid patch, will keep you posted on this.

I'd be interested to know where you got your supplies from? Seems like it would be good to get a group together to chip in for the products since it makes quite a bit.


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

BTW - hadn't been on my bike since November or so. Just brought it out today. Lots of seepage. Makes me think the stuffs still wet in there.

Sweet. Gotta change my valve stem, so I'll pop them open then and see what's inside.
I'll try to post pics. Its probably been 6+ months sealed in Conti MKs (9er).


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

So I guess I should have read a bit more of this post, to find the replies from people who found the Stans/ Slime mix to dry out quickly.

Seems to me that when the sealant dries out, it is because it is losing its solvent, and not because it is losing any Latex or Chunks (as you would see this escaping)

Hence it would appear that rather than topping up with more sealant (Stans or homebrew etc.), just some more solvent (as Isleblue65 and Smilinsteve suggested) like water or ammonia windex?)

Any thoughts on this? would adding more solvent help dilute the sealant that has gone off, and so make it reusable?


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

isleblue65 said:


> You could try adding some liquid latex as well. As Smilinsteve says, there is quite a bit of ammonia in L.L., and this might help make Stans last a bit longer. The problem I'm having is quite the opposite as yours. My modified WSS is bubbling green anti-freeze from the sidewalls. Of course I've been riding in temps down to -20 deg C on snow, so summer will be the real test!
> 
> By the way, I bought my '65 Cooper S from a guy in Brisbane (Pacific Pines actually) and shipped it over. I could tell by how heat cracked the interior was when I got it that the Gold Coast is a HOT place!
> 
> ...


Nice Cooper :thumbsup:


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

xcbarny said:


> Hence it would appear that rather than topping up with more sealant (Stans or homebrew etc.), just some more solvent (as Isleblue65 and Smilinsteve suggested) like water or ammonia windex?)
> 
> Any thoughts on this? would adding more solvent help dilute the sealant that has gone off, and so make it reusable?


My guess is that just adding solvent to the tire would not adequately mix the sealant and new liquid solvent. You would have separation of the two and the solvent would evaporate off or weep from the bead/ sidewalls and disappear. I think you would be better off just adding pre-mixed Stans/ Slime/ Latex/ Ammonia/ Windex (whatever your mix is) via syringe through the valve stem every few weeks, and just plan on removing your tire at the end of the season to clean out the globby muck that you've accumulated.

You guys would be a great testing ground for these theories however (adding only the solvent vs complete sealant/ solvent mix), and I'd be curious to know your results!

Once summer is here I hope that my mix stops weeping and seals better, but I won't know that for a while. I am going to work on a 'Winter Brew' sealant for next year to eliminate the green anti-freeze stains on my basement floor where the bike sits.



xcbarny said:


> Nice Cooper :thumbsup:


Thanks, it's a zippy little go-cart, and fun driving on the right side!


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

*Aussie WSS supplies*



xcbarny said:


> So how long are you getting out of your homebrew mix?


Dunno exactly  You see, ever since discovering WSS I've been gleefully swapping tyres at whim, according to whether I'm commuting, bush-bashing or whatever. So the truthful answer is 'just long enough', since although my WSS brew does get a bit tacky sometimes, I haven't actually had it dry out on me (yet). This also explains why I'm experimenting with adding a little extra water.



xcbarny said:


> I'm also running the Supercheap Liquid patch in my front tire. Have you tried this?


Yes, in fact this stuff is a key locally-made ingredient in my adapted WSS recipe. Incidentally, I've noticed Repco stores selling what appears to be virtually the same product, but marketed in a "Slime Tubeless" bottle instead. Also, I haven't got around to trying this sealant 'standalone' yet, however I have heard some good reports. So keep us posted!



xcbarny said:


> I'd be interested to know where you got your supplies from? Seems like it would be good to get a group together to chip in for the products since it makes quite a bit.


Yes, that's a good suggestion. It turns out that WSS ingredients are fairly cheap, and easily obtainable here in Brisbane (and I assume elsewhere in Oz). So here goes:


1 part Shamrock Brush On Latex from Art-Supplies shop
1 part SuperCheap Liquid Patch (a.k.a. Slime tubeless)
1 part Propylene Glycol (diluted 25%)
2 parts water


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

*ammonia isn't solvent*



xcbarny said:


> So I guess I should have read a bit more of this post, to find the replies from people who found the Stans/ Slime mix to dry out quickly.
> 
> Seems to me that when the sealant dries out, it is because it is losing its solvent, and not because it is losing any Latex or Chunks (as you would see this escaping)
> 
> ...


Ammonia stabilizes latex rubber. The rubber stays in a water suspension in little spherical particles (look up the term "micelle" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micelle) stabilized by the high pH that the ammonia provides. As ammonia leaves the solution, the pH drops. Consequently, the rubber molecules are no longer isolated from each other in their little spherical particles, and bond with each other, forming coagulated natural rubber. Once this happens, adding ammonia will do nothing. The bonds are formed and the rubber will not form a latex liquid any longer.


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

hootsmon said:


> Yes, in fact this stuff is a key locally-made ingredient in my adapted WSS recipe. Incidentally, I've noticed Repco stores selling what appears to be virtually the same product, but marketed in a "Slime Tubeless" bottle instead. Also, I haven't got around to trying this sealant 'standalone' yet, however I have heard some good reports. So keep us posted!
> 
> Yes, that's a good suggestion. It turns out that WSS ingredients are fairly cheap, and easily obtainable here in Brisbane (and I assume elsewhere in Oz). So here goes:
> 
> ...


Hey Hootsmon

When I got my Stans kit, I also got a bottle of the Slime sealant for UST tires. This appears to be similar to the Supercheap Liquid patch, though I think its a bit more viscous. Maybe the Liquid patch has more solvent in it to make it last longer here?

Thanks for the list of your local products, the PG looks quite expensive, do they do it in smaller containers? I like the fact that it has corrosion inhibitors though.

Good to hear that you're getting a usable life out of your mix. I may have been a bit hasty to say how bad mine was, I think the cut I got wouldn't have been sealed, even if my mix was fresh. I was very surprised by the size of the 'booger' I pulled out after just a couple of weeks though!


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

smilinsteve said:


> Ammonia stabilizes latex rubber. The rubber stays in a water suspension in little spherical particles (look up the term "micelle" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micelle) stabilized by the high pH that the ammonia provides. As ammonia leaves the solution, the pH drops. Consequently, the rubber molecules are no longer isolated from each other in their little spherical particles, and bond with each other, forming coagulated natural rubber. Once this happens, adding ammonia will do nothing. The bonds are formed and the rubber will not form a latex liquid any longer.


Thanks for the Chemistry lesson Smilinsteve :thumbsup:

That all makes sense. And I guess is the main reason why WSS increases the quantities of solvents at the start.

So can anyone confirm for me, since I can easily and cheaply get a bottle of windex, can I use this in place of the PG / EG, and mix this in with my slime / stans and water?


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

wadester said:


> The original idea behind WWF was to add ammonia, since that is what is used to keep the latex liquid. Here's a qoute:"ammonia (NH3) will be added to prevent the latex from coagulating. The two types of ammonia that can be used are 1) Concentrated Latex High ammonia: HA which uses 0.7% ammonia to rubber's weight 2) Concentrated Latex Low ammonia: LA which uses 0.2% ammonia to rubber's weight as well as other chemicals in order to store the latex for future use or to undergo other manufacturing process"
> 
> But the funny thing is, when you check out the ingredients in most WWF (may need to find the MSDS or material safety data sheet) - its just soapy water and blue color, with maybe some methyl alcohol! Adding soap to sealant is probably a bad idea since soap is about separating things, not gluing them together.
> 
> ...


This quote from Wadester in post 78 might help you with your decision to add ammonia. Note that windex or other windshield wiper type fluids might not even have ammonia in them. I would use a plain ammonia water solution in place of some of the straight water, not in place of the eg.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

xcbarny said:


> When I got my Stans kit, I also got a bottle of the Slime sealant for UST tires. This appears to be similar to the Supercheap Liquid patch, though I think its a bit more viscous. Maybe the Liquid patch has more solvent in it to make it last longer here?





xcbarny said:


> Thanks for the list of your local products, the PG looks quite expensive, do they do it in smaller containers? I like the fact that it has corrosion inhibitors though.


As far as I know, I'm using pure, food-grade PG, and I wasn't aware it contained any corrosion inhibitors. I just took along a 2-litre bottle to Andale, and the folks there cheerfully filled it with PG for a very reasonable price. In fact 2L is probably more PG than I'll ever need, so let me know if you need some.


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

hootsmon said:


> As far as I know, I'm using pure, food-grade PG, and I wasn't aware it contained any corrosion inhibitors. I just took along a 2-litre bottle to Andale, and the folks there cheerfully filled it with PG for a very resonable price.
> In fact 2L is probably more PG than I'll ever need, so let me know if you need some.


[/QUOTE]

Ah that's good. I just followed your link and found this:

http://www.andale.com.au/productListing.aspx?cat_id=57&parentcat=Glycol+Equipment&cat=Glycol+

Thought it looked a bit pricey, but if its the same stuff that they gave you, then looks like is has the corrosion inhibitors in it.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

> "Propylene Glycol oxidizes when exposed to air and heat. When this occurs, organic acids are formed viz. Glycolic acid, Glyoxalic acid, Formic acid, Carbonic acid & Oxalic acid. If not properly inhibited, this fluid can be very corrosive."
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifreeze


Found this from page one of the thread. If PG oxidizes to form acids, then that is absolutely the last thing you would want to mix with stans or any latex product. Latex will coagulate when the pH drops.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

smilinsteve said:


> Found this from page one of the thread. "Propylene Glycol oxidizes when exposed to air and heat. When this occurs, organic acids are formed viz. Glycolic acid, Glyoxalic acid, Formic acid, Carbonic acid & Oxalic acid. If not properly inhibited, this fluid can be very corrosive."
> If PG oxidizes to form acids, then that is absolutely the last thing you would want to mix with stans or any latex product. Latex will coagulate when the pH drops.


I'm thinking that we don't have the necessary heat in our application, but I will check with the chemists to see what the pH change rate is at "ambient" temperature - which can be up to 110F/43C around here.

I like that the beer suppliers PG is corrosion inhibited, and I will bet that the PG in Slime and other tire sealants is as well - so the 1 latex/2 Slime/2 water mix shouldn't have any corrosion issues.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

xcbarny said:


> Ah that's good. I just followed your link and found this:
> 
> http://www.andale.com.au/productListing.aspx?cat_id=57&parentcat=Glycol+Equipment&cat=Glycol+
> 
> Thought it looked a bit pricey, but if its the same stuff that they gave you, then looks like is has the corrosion inhibitors in it.


Yep, that PG is the exact stuff I'm using, and fortunately Andale were happy to sell it in smallish quantities as well (like 2 litres or so), which is a *lot* cheaper!

BTW, this stuff is pure, so it needs to be diluted somewhat, before mixing with latex. Otherwise, mixing pure PG and latex together results in a nice bouncy rubber-ball. Great fun, but no use as a tyre sealant.


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## wpuk (May 13, 2008)

wadester said:


> Since 5/04 I been running:
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 1 part Slime tubeless
> 1 part cheap antifreeze
> 2 parts water


Is this the accepted best home brew recipe?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wadester
Since 5/04 I been running:
1 part Latex mold builder
1 part Slime tubeless
1 part cheap antifreeze
2 parts water



wpuk said:


> Is this the accepted best home brew recipe?


Most accepted, longest track record - yes. Best? Read the whole thread - YMMV.

I'm now running:
1 part Latex mold builder
2 parts Slime tubeless
2 parts water

But its only been 6 months or so - talk to me next summer about this recipe


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## 65Matt (Feb 6, 2004)

OK - I bought everything and I'm gonna try Wadesters latest recipe. I found the latex mold builder at Hobby Lobby, and I found that if you Google "hobby lobby coupon", you'll find a 40% off one you can print and use. Everything else, I found at Walmart.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

^^ I'm in as well... I was about to pick up a bottle of stans, but I went next door to Michael's and bought the mold builder instead... need to get some slime and maybe borrow some glitter from my daughter...but I'll be rocking the WSS by this weekend. I think I'm going with the proven antifreeze mix.

Latex + water + slime, THEN antifreeze, right?


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

...Had an idea for a chunkulatory addative: Pencil sharpener shavings. Anyone? Good idea? Bad idea? My sharpener seems to create quite a variety of shapes and sizes.


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## slacks (Nov 5, 2008)

*Timeout for a question*

I am going to go to tubeless this year and have been reading this thread faithfully. I appreciate the ingenuity.

But -- and I don't mean to sound like an ar$ehle -- don't you think that if there was a way to make Stan's better just by adding x (or x and y), they would have done it? For all the tests forum posters have conducted, haven't the guys in the business done hundreds more and settled on the final product that's on the shelf?

Maybe these deviations are geographically appropriate -- like, maybe some areas want it to last all season and are willing to give up the fast-sealing properties. Others who deal with thorns, want the sealing properties and don't mind changing the solution every few months

I have to think that with enough R&D, the sealant companies have arrived at the best compromise, and these homebrews just serve to accentuate one of the benefits of sealant, at the cost of another.

But I could be talking out of my ar$e.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

The biggest advantage I'm seeing with homebrew is the longevity of the mix. I don't see what I'm giving up if I make something that seals as well as the big company stuff, but lasts 5 times as long.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Slime is formulated for motor vehicle tires where temperatures are much higher. Also, I am sure they make many other considerations in their formulation that are not necessarily the best for our use. Stan's works great, but dries out too fast for most people. This works well for Stans because you have to keep buying new sealant every 3 months or so.

I am far happier with the home-brew mixes than I was with either Stans or Slime before. In fact, my previous method was 50/50 Stans and Slime.

I am currently favoring eliminating the anti-freeze from future batches.


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## 65Matt (Feb 6, 2004)

I just found out that Slime tubes have removeable cores! And you can pick them up anywhere for $5-6!


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## slannon (Feb 6, 2007)

Been using Wadster's original mix for over 2 years now on a 29er WWLT/Exiwolf combo using the ghetto tubeless on my 29'er. Tires were always weeping. Just mounted a new WWLT and used a paintbrush to put a thin coat of homebrew on inside of the tire and let it dry for a couple of days before mounting it up. Been a month now and no weeping.


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

Just bought a fixer upper, 2002 VW Jetta TDI. Previous owner must have lived in a construction zone, as the LF tire had a slow leak. I marked the nail spot, with a yellow line and squirted in 6 oz of 1 part Slime, 1 Part Stans, and 1 part water to dilute the mix and allow it to flow and balance a bit better. Pulled the nail, rolled it bottom side down and pffft! Sealed! The next morning, I got some green slinging around inside my wheels well. Found another nail, covered in green slime. Pulled it and drove slowly, sealing it up. Air pressure had dropped from 34 psi in the tire to 31. Pumped it back up to 34. Thought it wise to roll the window down and listen for any more pfffts! of sealant doing it's job, when I heard a ticking sound with every rotation. On the inside of the tire, where it was hard to get at, was a drywall screw, headless and ground off, from all the road contact. Pulled that out, it was a bit longer to seal that one, but it's fully sealed now. I figure I've lost 1/2 the sealant in there, doing it's job, sealing 3 nail/screw holes. Much more cost effective than taking the car in to have all those patches installed. This very well may make Road Hazard Fee of $15 a tire outdated on each new tire purchase.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

^^ Sweet. I'll be putting the secret sauce in my dirt bike and quad tires too... 


I like the brush-on application idea prior to installing the tires. How long do you have to wait? I'm mixing up the sauce tonight (thursday) and want to go riding Saturday. is 24 hours enough for a thin coat of original WSS to dry out in the open air?

(this thread has inspired me to go tubeless, by the way...never done it before. Set up my Speed Discs with gorilla tape last night, and entering the mad scientist realm of mixing the sauce tonight...)


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## Mad_Scientist (Jun 3, 2009)

It is not my realm...
I just help out Wade every now and again...


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## slannon (Feb 6, 2007)

CommuterBoy said:


> ^^ Sweet. I'll be putting the secret sauce in my dirt bike and quad tires too...
> 
> I like the brush-on application idea prior to installing the tires. How long do you have to wait? I'm mixing up the sauce tonight (thursday) and want to go riding Saturday. is 24 hours enough for a thin coat of original WSS to dry out in the open air?
> 
> (this thread has inspired me to go tubeless, by the way...never done it before. Set up my Speed Discs with gorilla tape last night, and entering the mad scientist realm of mixing the sauce tonight...)


I waited a couple of days, but of course I live in Florida- It dry's pretty quick out in the sun with a THIN coat.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Maybe I'll bust out the wife's hair dryer and speed things up...


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

OK I have just mixed my first batch of WSS. 

*disclaimer: this is my first tubeless experience. I know nothing. 

I mixed up this formula:
16 oz mold builder
16 oz slime
32 oz water
16 oz EG antifreeze

and my first reaction was "wow, this stuff is thin". It was so liquidy that I added the rest of the Slime that I had bought (I got the 24 oz bottle, so another 8 ounces) in the hopes of thickening it up. But then I remembered all the good things I've heard about Stans and how watery it looks in the Stans videos. 

So not being one for patience, I went ahead and threw some in my first ever set of ghetto tubeless wheels. I'm dealing with brand new Michelin AT tires. So far so good...it's been a half an hour and I've flipped them once... very little seepage at the bead...zero seepage at the sidewall. I'm just worried about how watery this mix seemed to me. Is it supposed to be pretty runny? It appears that the wheels are holding air, so it must be doing something. Can anyone describe in vivid detail how runny the sauce should be?


A note to future shoppers: I saw three kinds of slime at walmart... "Tube Sealant", the traditional bike one, although it had particles of rubber in it; "Tire Sealant", the traditional tubeless tire sealant with the rubber particles in it; and "*Wheel Sensor Safe* Tire Sealant"...new formula. It was very noticeably thinner than the traditional "Tire Sealant", designed to flow through auto wheel pressure sensors without gumming things up. Sounds like a watered down version to me. Buyer beware. 
I also noted that the 'tube sealant' was thicker than the tubeless 'tire sealant'. I almost bought it because it was thicker, but decided to stick with the recipe...then I was bummed because of how watery mine seemed....


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

CommuterBoy said:


> Can anyone describe in vivid detail how runny the sauce should be?


Like milk only a little thicker, not like buttermilk, NOT like sour cream, maybe like kefir, but mostly like milk.


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## ricot83 (Jul 2, 2008)

I actually had to thin some of mine out test because it was way too thick. I thinned it to the point that I could hear it swishing in the tire and it sealed instantly


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Beautiful, thanks. Did I gum it up too much by adding another 1/2 part of Slime? I guess the answer to that is no, since the tires are holding air nicely this morning...I did the spin/shake routine, laid them on boxes (I'm a rebel, everyone else uses a bucket) and flipped them once before bed... 8 hours later no seepage, no squeeze-test noticable loss of pressure. 

Will it be slower to seal a hole if it's a little thicker? If milk is a 1 and egg nog is a 10, I'd describe mine as a 7.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

CommuterBoy said:


> Beautiful, thanks. Did I gum it up too much by adding another 1/2 part of Slime? I guess the answer to that is no, since the tires are holding air nicely this morning...I did the spin/shake routine, laid them on boxes (I'm a rebel, everyone else uses a bucket) and flipped them once before bed... 8 hours later no seepage, no squeeze-test noticable loss of pressure.
> 
> Will it be slower to seal a hole if it's a little thicker? If milk is a 1 and egg nog is a 10, I'd describe mine as a 7.


You have to remember that the newest variation recipe replaces the antifreeze with another measure of slime, so your mix is in that direction.

Also, if you think your mix is too thin - just add a wad of dryer lint! It thickens it up quite a bit.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Right on, thanks. Nothing like affirming words from the Slime Lord himself. I hate to say it before I have any riding experience with the stuff, but I think I'm a convert


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## MasCam (Mar 9, 2010)

Great Thread.

I just wondered if anyone else had come across this.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Geax_Tubeless_Therapy_GTT_Tyre_Sealent/5360015202/

I used this link because it has the best (biggest) picture of the product which I think is quite new, as I don't remember seeing it before and there dosent seem to be any pro reviews of it on the web.

You can clearly see the chunkaltion in the picture and they claim it will last up to 2 years in your tires. Is this commercial WSS?

Anyone know any more about it

Chris.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

That looks like it might just be a similar product to Slime Tubeless...dunno.



Mad_Scientist said:


> It is not my realm...
> I just help out Wade every now and again...


That was funny, by the way.


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## bbgobie (Apr 20, 2006)

Thx Wade

Trying out your V5 brew. 26" Racing Ralphs, the older ones before they switched tread pattern, so tire has been ridden for races and some training for a couple years.

First tire sealed up no problem. Was very easy, considering this was my first time with any sort of tubeless.

2nd one I had the tire on, and seemed to hold the bead. Went to put the WSS in, and tried to pump it back up. No go. Went to run sponge around and notice man, the bmx tube had moved off of one side. For the next 2 hours I tried to get that bmx tube on properly. It just kept moving around. I'd get it all centered, than it would move. Just seemed too tight kind of thing. Taped it down on one side. 

Bang! first try got everything on. Slowly peeled the tape off to see if it was the tape holding the seal or the tube. Amazingly the tube can just barely be seen along 1 edge. Better than I could've cut it. I'll be more careful watching this one wheel though.

Well report back after more testing. But the WSS worked perfectly, everything sealed up great, no bubbles with soap on at all! In fact there was a tiny prick in my rear that was sealed before I even got to the soap. Just noticed a green section on the sidewall!
Great stuff !!


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## xcmtber (Mar 22, 2006)

*Just Stans*

What is the advantage to making a concoction to do what Stans does so well? Price?
Stans has always worked perfect and when I run out, I'll give the new Slime pro a try. To reapply Stans after three months is not that big a deal considering the benefits.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

You just answered your own question. Not only is 3 months too short a time to last, but Stans is not cheap especially compared to homebrew. Also, buying more Stans every 3 months is even more expensive. Stans works great, no question

Anecdotal data. I am in Baltimore this week and had a small hole in the sidewall. My sealant had been in way over 6 months-maybe 9, and would not seal it so I went to a bike shop (Trek Dealer). The put almost an entire bottle of Bontragger sealant in and it didn't even slow the leak down. I found a bottle of Stans on their shelf and they put 2 scoops of Stans in and the hole plugged immediately. The mechanic (also the owner of 2 shops in Baltimore area) said that was a pretty convincing demonstration. So like I say Stans works; but homebrew works probably just as well and is way cheaper. I have 7 tubeless 29er wheels and replacing Stan's every 3 months on all those wheels would be expensive and time consuming.


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## veloreality (May 10, 2009)

so ive got a few bottles of this stuff http://www.slime.com/product/781/(10112)-Slime-Pro-Tubeless-Sealant-.html and im thinking about going tubeless. i have stans arch rims and stans rimstips and wtb prowler sl tires in a 2.10. 
everything should work ok right?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Everything should work. One of my wheelsets is this exact setup:Arch's, Prowlers, Stans tape. I will say there seems to be if difference in quality of Prowler SL's though. My front has always been fine but my rear has constantly had little dots of green on the sidewall. This is the only tire out of 7 that has had this problem and it is not real bad, just annoying. This one problem is why I am going to try my next batch with no anti-freeze. I am pretty sure Stans would not have this problem, not sure about the Slime. And, it could just be that they got an extra thin coat of rubber on my one tire.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I'm using latex caulk (also has silica flakes) and windex (ammonia). Ultra cheap, and it's been working fine for a few weeks now.


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## dtheo (Sep 18, 2005)

*particles*

sounds interesting. let us know how it goes. 
I scrapped off a bunch of latex dust/particles from the dried goop inside the tire. Hopefully that will help if I get another sidewall or bigger cut



Jayem said:


> I'm using latex caulk (also has silica flakes) and windex (ammonia). Ultra cheap, and it's been working fine for a few weeks now.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Just pulled my first goathead out of my first tubeless tire. phssst. sealed. Beautiful.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Jayem said:


> I'm using latex caulk (also has silica flakes) and windex (ammonia). Ultra cheap, and it's been working fine for a few weeks now.


Interesting, any more details, like proportions? Just push the caulk into a jar and shake?

(Sorry if I missed something earlier.)


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

What brand Latex Caulk?


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## dirtdober (Oct 31, 2005)

Ghetto tubelessed my Bontrager TLR's with Slime Pro and found that I love tubeless. It's only been about six weeks but they have no leaks. I've pulled two large thorns out and both times I would hear a air leak for about six or seven rotations of the wheel and then saw a liquid booger go flying off to the side and the hole sealed completly. 
The first tire took me about an hour to finally get a seal. After I figured out how to get air thru a presta valve quickly with my compressor it only took one try with the second tire. The first week I would loose 2-4 lbs of pressure every two days. Now I loose about 2 lbs every three weeks.


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## sjc115 (Oct 20, 2008)

dirtdober said:


> ... After I figured out how to get air thru a presta valve quickly with my compressor it only took one try with the second tire.


What type of fitting did you use on your compressor to get air into the presta valve?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

sjc115 said:


> What type of fitting did you use on your compressor to get air into the presta valve?


Just a guess, but a presta chuck?

Probbly more important is a removeable core presta valve, lets a bigger volume of air in to pop the beads. I've also seen the core removed from a regular presta valve and put back. Neat trick.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I have a 20 dollar presta chuck for my compressor, and a 99 cent presta-to-schrader converter that I carry in my camelbak.... I vastly prefer using the 99 cent thread-on version. I used this to seat my tires with no issues.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

CommuterBoy said:


> I have a 20 dollar presta chuck for my compressor, and a 99 cent presta-to-schrader converter that I carry in my camelbak.... I vastly prefer using the 99 cent thread-on version. I used this to seat my tires with no issues.


Sometimes you can just use the quick connect chuck with nothing in it. 

The SKS pump adapter is good too. My Mavic tubeless stems don't have threads for the threaded adapter when the core is out.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

For a while I had the head of an old Topeak floor pump attached to an inflator head for the compressor using the hose from the floor pump (hose-clamped to a threaded fitting). It worked awesome until I ran it over with the Jeep. This was a cool set up. It clamped onto presta valves with the lever like a standard floor pump, but then a couple feet back down the line there was a filler with a guage on it.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

I just picked up some sealant for a hole in my wife's car tire sidewall called AmerSeal from NAPA Auto Parts. I hadn't heard of this stuff before.

The first thing about it that I noticed was how thick it was -- about like thick pancake mix. Secondly, when I took a little bit of it between my fingers, long stringly fibers form immediately. they look like fiberglass or cotton strands, but they are not visible in the liquid, only when a bit of it is dried out between your fingers.

In my wife's tire, the stuff instantly plugged the hole. I took the remaining 16 oz in the bottle I bought and mixed it in with my variation of WSS ver 1. I'll try it in my tires soon.

http://www.amerseal.com/product.htm


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

*rubber tipped wonder*



sjc115 said:


> What type of fitting did you use on your compressor to get air into the presta valve?


What I use is one of the spray nozels with a rubber tip. I just slip the rubber tip over the end of the presta valve and it blows up superfast. Its super nice when you are trying to set the bead for tubeless.

like this https://www.matcotools.com/ProductImages/A201.jpg


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

*A friendly thought*

After reading this entire thread (yes, all 5 pages worth) I have noticed a similar theme across the board: People either have a easy time sealing the bead, or a nearly impossible time.

After having worked in a shop for several years and converting countless tires to tubeless, I have learned a very important aspect that I have not heard mentioned yet. Whether you are running ghetto tubeless or using a Stans rim strip, it is very important that the tire fits snugly around the rim. This being said, some rims are very easy to convert and all you need is the rim strip. While on the other hand (depending on the tire) you may have to add some layers of tape under the rip strip to make a little snugger fit between the tire and the rim.

Currently, I am running SOS rims with Maxxis Highroller tires. I had to add several layers of tape over the rim before I was able to get the tighter fit i was looking for. Once the thickness was right, the tires sealed right up and have never had a problem. I have never burped or had a tire blow off the rim.

best of luck!


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## dirtdober (Oct 31, 2005)

the small brass piece is a presta adapter. the black plastic piece came with the compressor so I'm not really sure what it is. with all pieces put together I attatch it to the wheel and then pop the air hose on the end, this seem to work best. the air went in very fast then and sealed in a few seconds with the two popping sounds. I didn't have removable cores so it took a bit of trial and error.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

One of these with removable cores works fine. Whoooooosh, sealed.


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## dubthang (Apr 2, 2009)

What about adding the dust/material made from using an abrasive cleaning stick?









I would think that they would fill holes quite nicely.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

^^ Like an old school gum eraser? That would be good hole pluggin' stuff.


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## dubthang (Apr 2, 2009)

CommuterBoy said:


> ^^ Like an old school gum eraser? That would be good hole pluggin' stuff.


It is kind of like a gum eraser. The sticks are way bigger though, and they cost under $10.


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## roy harley (May 8, 2004)

5titusguy said:


> While your at the craft store getting your Mold Builder pick up some Silica beads. They are used for drying flowers....
> Then you can put some of these tiny balls/pellets in your tire and they seal up tiny and bigger holes,,,, I have not put a micrometer on them but they work well,,, and you buy one bag that will last a life time for $5.
> my Mix
> 
> ...


The Silica beads don't cause your solution to maybe dry up faster by pulling moisture into the bead? I guess if you soaked the silica before you added it then there would be no room for the silica to suck up moisture in your solution.

thanks


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

My mix is working good so far (two weeks) :
1pt mold builder
1.5pt auto slime
1pt EG antifreeze
2pts water

I have had very little seepage at the sidewall, but I know others have had constant weeping depending on the tire. All of this seepage appears to be antifreeze...very green drips. I had a tiny bit for only a couple of rides, and nothing since. 

1. Has anyone determine if this is in fact just antifreeze, or if it's a combo of ingredients?
2. Does the newest incarnation of WSS (minus the antifreeze) seep less at the sidewall? 

I'm scoring a second set of wheels and used tires, and I'm expecting more of a seepage issue...


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## 5H2O (Oct 8, 2009)

Hey CB,

I use the latest formula that has no anti-freeze in it. I get a little bit of seepage at the sidewalls, on a Conti MK, and it also is a very green color. So it must be a combo of ingredients.

The latest formula is working great btw. I just add a little more water to create a thinner consistency.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

^^ Interesting, thanks. I wonder if it's the antifreeze that's in the slime? The tire forms an impressive filter that only lets that one thing escape...but what is that one thing?


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## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

CommuterBoy said:


> ^^ Interesting, thanks. I wonder if it's the antifreeze that's in the slime? The tire forms an impressive filter that only lets that one thing escape...but what is that one thing?


i'm guessing it's the EG or PG in the slime (can't remember which it contains). i'm using mold builder, slime and water only and get a lot of dark green seepage at the sidewalls as well.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

My antifreeze is EG. I wonder if any PG folks can chime in and confirm dark green seepage drops on their sidewalls? 

I guess you'd have to be using PG and no slime in order to prove anything...or EG and no slime.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

I had the green ooze when I used 2/3 Stan's and 1/3 tubeless slime, so it comes from the slime. It wept for months on some tires, enough to puddle on the floor, but the volume in the tire never seemed to decrease. I have gone to straight Stan's until I use up my abundant supply, then to WSS.


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## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

i just dismantled my tire that has been steadily weeping at the bead and sidewall for a month to try a different mixture. i'll be substituting the tubeless slime for flat attack and see what happens.

performance and psi has been fine even with the seeping but i'd like to eliminate it if possible.


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## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

CommuterBoy said:


> My antifreeze is EG. I wonder if any PG folks can chime in and confirm dark green seepage drops on their sidewalls?
> 
> I guess you'd have to be using PG and no slime in order to prove anything...or EG and no slime.


it's the PG that is leaking. as mentioned i just went from mold builder/slime/water to mold builder/flat attack/water and have the same dark green spots at the sidewall. both slime and flat attack use PG.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I have been using cheap EG and slime (original WSS, same as CB is using) for the last year with no sign of weeping. Ignitors, MotoRaptors, and Exiwolfs.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

My Maxis tires don't weep so that is not necessarily an indicator. Maxis seems to have less porous sidewalls.


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## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> My Maxis tires don't weep so that is not necessarily an indicator. Maxis seems to have less porous sidewalls.


the only brand of non UST tires i've set up tubeless are maxxis. i believe every one of the single ply 2.35 minion dhf's and high rollers has spotted at the sidewall using stans, WSS or a similar recipe.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I get maybe 10 little spots total (all four sidewalls) after a good hard ride on my Michelin AT's... I'm sure my antifreeze is EG, but I did use 1/2 part more slime than the original recipe...so I've got a little PG going on in there too I guess. Didn't know Slime used PG.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

*Data Form*

This is a data collection form for testing a few variations of WSS at our clubhouse. The idea is to collect some hard data that will help improve the open source sealant formula. Comments and suggestions are welcome. Maybe you will join us, I'm sure wadester will appreciate the data. I'm seeing this form for one riding season, a data line for each wheel.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

Hi bsieb, that form looks worthwhile, and I feel I could participate. But for it to be meaningful, I'm thinking we need a bit of clarity about what 'v1' and 'v1a' mean exactly. For example, I'm currently getting good results with a WSS-flavoured brew that's essentially WSS Mk I, only concocted using local Aussie ingredients. So I'm a bit stumped about how to categorize the stuff. Any thoughts?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

hootsmon said:


> Hi bsieb, that form looks worthwhile, and I feel I could participate. But for it to be meaningful, I'm thinking we need a bit of clarity about what 'v1' and 'v1a' mean exactly. For example, I'm currently getting good results with a WSS-flavoured brew that's essentially WSS Mk I, only concocted using local Aussie ingredients. So I'm a bit stumped about how to categorize the stuff. Any thoughts?


This is a good point. Needs an annotation in header or footer on recipe, such as:

WSS V1: 
1 part mold builder latex
1 part Slime tubeless sealant
1 part Ethylene Glycol antifreeze
2 parts water
WSS V1a:
Same, but add 1/8 tsp sodium alginate thickener per 2oz WSS
WSS V2:
1 part mold builder latex
2 parts Slime tubeless sealant
2 parts water
WSS V1g:
With glitter, or your very own special chunkulations

You could note variations in the column, or post your own special recipe - that would make this a good reference for other reasons!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

My understanding:

V1 - Original formula (1 latex, 1 EG, 1 Auto Slime, 2 water)

V1a - Original with 1/8 tsp alginate per 2 0z

V2 - 1 Latex, 2 Slime Tubeless, 2 water

V1p - Original with food grade PG instead of EG

AVx - Alternate Version, list the ingredients in a footnote.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

That would make mine V1.5 (same as V1 but an extra 1/2 part slime).


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

*How about this*

Easy to change


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2010)

Anyone ever try adding "Bar's Stop Leak" radiator sealant. Stuff works wonders in cars. With everyone using anti-freeze, it seems like a natural fit. I am guessing it would be better than glitter. Might clog the stem.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Anyone ever try adding "Bar's Stop Leak" radiator sealant. Stuff works wonders in cars. With everyone using anti-freeze, it seems like a natural fit. I am guessing it would be better than glitter. Might clog the stem.


Now there's an interesting suggestion. Years ago I used "Barr's Stop Leak" for plugging leaks in a couple of old cars, and yes, it works well for that! A old bush-mechanic mate of mine reckons the original "Stop leak" recipe consisted of ground-up peppercorn chunks, in an oil emulsion. Dunno if that's true, but it sounded quite plausible to me. But I have no idea if that's the same recipe used in the stuff on the shelves today. Anyway, *IF* there really is oil contained in Stop Leaks, then I'd expect that would probably render it useless for chunkulation. Anyone seen a Barr's Stop Leaks MSDS?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

As I recall, the Bars has powdered aluminum in it. Here is the MSDS:

http://www.barsproducts.com/msds/C16R6_msds.pdf


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## Rzar (Jul 29, 2009)

max_cat said:


> After running tubeless three years, I think I have tried all the different sealant types. My unscientific conclusion, if the main goal is flat protection, stan's is the best. Unfortunately, it dries up and thus builds up in the tire.


How do you clean out the build up in the tire? Just scrub it out?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I just get a brush with a handle and let the hose run at at trickle and just scrub it out. You can also often blast it with the hose nozzle and then pick what is left with your fingernails. Generally takes about 5 minutes per tire.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Question: 
I keep the bike in the house, but last night it spent the night in my friends enclosed trailer outside...temps dropped to about 30*F, so not 'really' cold by any means. 

I have had very little seepage (none at the bead) with just a few drops on the sidewalls after a good ride (tires are Michelin AT's)...tires have been mounted for 1 month with WSS version 1, with 1/2 extra part of slime. 

This morning when I pulled the bike out of the trailer I had noticeable loss of pressure (maybe 3-5 lbs) and seepage around the beads (not a ton, but a noticeable moist stripe around the edge of the rim, darkening up the trail dust that was on the tire). Coincidence? Temp-related? Gas fumes? (there are two quads in the trailer and a couple of gas cans). 

I do not think this loss is just the usual effects of cold making the tires feel soft at first... bike is back inside now and tires are still feeling a little bit soft. I rode it to work... no pressure guage handy so I can't be exact.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

*Which are the folks prefering?*

Just getting ready to mix up some tubeless tonic this weekend and just seeing if anyone has much feedback on WSS V2? I will be rolling Maxxis Ardents 2.4's non UST just fyi.

Dusty



wadester said:


> This is a good point. Needs an annotation in header or footer on recipe, such as:
> 
> WSS V1:
> 1 part mold builder latex
> ...


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

Hey CommuterBoy, this 'seepage' you talk about has got me puzzled. I've been using my WSS variant since December with absolutely ZERO seepage... zilch, nada! What's more, once the bead's seated, I've hardly ever have to 'top-up' the air pressure (aside from a few occasions when then tread's been holed bad enough to fizz a bit before sealing up). So this seepage you're describing is a bit of mystery. I've only got 2 theories for seepage, so tell me what you think...

To best of my knowledge, my WSS brew contains *NO* ethylene glycol whatsoever (but it does have a dash of pure propylene glycol instead). Which make you wonder if perhaps it's the anti-freeze ingredient seeping out of your tires? [EDIT] Just noticed that PG has a higher molar-weight (and density) than EG, so that kinda figures.
Secondly, my riding conditions sound a bit warmer than what you've described  So maybe seepage is a low-temperature phenomenon?

By the way, I suspect it's probably not all tyre-related, since I'm cheerfully swapping a range of tyres, including Nanos, SB8s, Bonty 29-3 TLR & Jones TLR, without seeing more than a hint of seepage out of any of them (aside from a few drops at setup-time). So clearly something must be different that's causing this seepage.

Thoughts, anyone?


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

Seepage is individual, depending on the combination of tyre and sealant. My tyres (Nano Raptors) seal easily every time and lose little air. Over time the casing has become work softened and weeps more and more to the point where about 3/4 of the side walls and tread look wet. I'd say this is where I am losing the small amount of pressure that I do.

I'd guess heavier tyres would suffer less from this. I recently aired up a pair of wire bead Exiwolfs on my rigid Inbred and they hold air perfectly with no weeping. Whether or not they eventually soften and weep I'll have to wait and see.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Hootsmon, what do you weigh and what is your WSS variant? 

I'm 210 lbs, using WSS version 1 with 1/2 part extra slime (my antifreeze is EG)
The seepage looks like tiny droplets of antifreeze.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Interesting nugget: 

I had to pull a tire last night due to an issue with my gorilla tape set-up (whole other thread)... 
I have had WSS version 1 with 1/2 part extra slime in the tire for approximately 5 weeks. I did not add any chunkulation to my WSS. When I pulled the tire I noticed that all of the chunkulatory additive in the auto slime had formed itself into two little gobs of black rubber blackberries. It was not dispersed in the mix anymore...all of the little rubber particles had found each other and were hanging out together. I have had a couple of thorn holes in the tire that sealed up fine, but apparently not because of the particles in the slime. 

The little gobs broke up easily with my fingers..they're weren't full-on latexed together, but they were certainly attraced to each other and floating around in the mix like one piece, rather than diffused throughout. 

I have no explanation, just thought inquiring minds would want to know.


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## 5H2O (Oct 8, 2009)

There must be enough latex in the mix to still seal punctures, small ones at least. That sucks that the additive in the Slime gets stuck together over time. I wonder if pumping an oz. or two of new brew in every couple of months would help with sealing. I imagine that it would start to make an even bigger ball over time.

Maybe we can have a contest to see who could make the biggest special sauce ball!


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

What is the latest development on using Latex acrylic caulking and Window cleaner for tire sealant?

ie they've referred to it a GHETTO SEALANT in this thread.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=612071


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## badhknese86 (Apr 10, 2010)

Does anyone know if this will work when injected into tubes?


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## 5H2O (Oct 8, 2009)

badhknese86 said:


> Does anyone know if this will work when injected into tubes?


I use it in the tubes on my road bike. I ride a lot of gravel roads and haven't had any problems yet. I guess you could do the same with mtn. tubes, but why not just go tubeless?


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## wpuk (May 13, 2008)

RandyBoy said:


> What is the latest development on using Latex acrylic caulking and Window cleaner for tire sealant?
> 
> ie they've referred to it a GHETTO SEALANT in this thread.
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=612071


im also curious if anyone's done a preference test between the 2


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## badhknese86 (Apr 10, 2010)

I just purchased a 2010 Overdrive(not pro). I have not done anything to it so everything is stock. I assume that converting the current wheel sets will be a pain?


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I use it in the tubes of my dirt bike. Insurance against a REALLY long walk home. I would imagine in a tube it would work better than in a tire, since the tube is already air tight. 


I had a thought the other day... what about 'painting' the inside of a non-tubeless specific tire with a thin layer of pure mold builder (latex) and letting it harden up before mounting the tire up and putting in the goo? Seems like that would make a nice anti-seepage layer for the sidewalls of more porous tires. ...just a thought.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

badhknese86 said:


> I assume that converting the current wheel sets will be a pain?


well then it probably will be.


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## boomn (Jul 6, 2007)

5H2O said:


> I use it in the tubes on my road bike. I ride a lot of gravel roads and haven't had any problems yet. I guess you could do the same with mtn. tubes, but why not just go tubeless?


I'm actually considering "downgrading" to a setup like this. Ghetto tubeless and gorilla tape tubeless have worked fairly well for me, but without the better bead hook of a tubeless rim and the better bead and sidewall of a tubeless tire I keep running into burping problems at lower pressures. These are pressures that otherwise work great, but on off-camber sections and uneven rocks I get burps.

Either ghetto tubeless is more reliant on internal tire pressure to keep the bead seated well, or my rim/tire combo is just unlucky


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## 5H2O (Oct 8, 2009)

CommuterBoy said:


> I had a thought the other day... what about 'painting' the inside of a non-tubeless specific tire with a thin layer of pure mold builder (latex) and letting it harden up before mounting the tire up and putting in the goo? Seems like that would make a nice anti-seepage layer for the sidewalls of more porous tires. ...just a thought.


I've had this same idea as well. My WTB tires don't have seepage problems, but my Conti's are terrible about it. I haven't gotten around to actually trying it though. My only concern is that, depending on how much brew is used in the tire, the painted on latex layer will soften up and make those boogers inside the tire rendering the whole process useless.

If you try it let us know how it works. The next time I put on my Conti's I'll do it, but that won't be until this fall.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

badhknese86 said:


> I just purchased a 2010 Overdrive(not pro). I have not done anything to it so everything is stock. I assume that converting the current wheel sets will be a pain?


No more of a pain than any other conversion.



wpuk said:


> im also curious if anyone's done a preference test between the 2


Data points for these DIY sealants take 6-18 MONTHS, so not a lot of test data rolling in - and if it lasts that long folks are probably forgetting to come back and tell us about it!



boomn said:


> Ghetto tubeless and gorilla tape tubeless have worked fairly well for me, but without the better bead hook of a tubeless rim and the better bead and sidewall of a tubeless tire I keep running into burping problems at lower pressures. These are pressures that otherwise work great, but on off-camber sections and uneven rocks I get burps.
> 
> Either ghetto tubeless is more reliant on internal tire pressure to keep the bead seated well, or my rim/tire combo is just unlucky


With any bicycle tubeless, burping is an issue. I went to NoTubes rims after my early experience with converted standard rims, and had less problems - but still an occasional issue when the tire is really being pushed in rocky offcamber stuff.

There is a possible solution to all this, and the concept is already in use commercially for motorcycles ( http://www.nuetech.com/ ) and 4wd trucks ( http://www.staunproducts.com/beadlock.php ) - and from what I hear, "ghetto" in heavy construction vehicles.

What is it? Basically, it's a tire within a tire. The "ghetto" construction deal is to put a much smaller tube inside a tubeless tire - this tube presses the beads against the rim, but doesn't touch the tire anywhere else (very heavy wall tubes). The 2 commercial systems use a strong cover for that inner tube so it doesn't just fill the tire like a regular tube or pop when it gets too thin.

You still get the tubeless rolling performance of the outer tire, and now you can run any stupid-low pressure you want. The problems are 1) adds weight 2) how DO you inflate both the tire and the tube?

SO! If you could get this "inner tire" for your MTB, and cure every bead issue you ever had with tubeless - Would you? How much more weight would be "too much"? Those of us in thorn country would still need sealant, but the beads wouldn't need it any more.

I'm developing this for a fatbike I've got in the works - 26x3.8 Surly larrys on 26x100 rims with a 26x2.35 inner tire. A flexible tube from a second valve stem inflates the outer tire w/o disturbing the inner tube, but it does stick thru the inner tire. Inner pressure looks good in the 30 psi range, and outer pressure can easily be 5-10 psi. I'm favoring the Staun approach for the final "inner tire" - just nylon packcloth with web reinforcements at the "bead" and "tread". A 29er might use a 700c tubular.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

CommuterBoy said:


> I had a thought the other day... what about 'painting' the inside of a non-tubeless specific tire with a thin layer of pure mold builder (latex) and letting it harden up before mounting the tire up and putting in the goo? Seems like that would make a nice anti-seepage layer for the sidewalls of more porous tires. ...just a thought.


I remember reading somewhere about a person doing this with thin tires known to weep and take days to seal. They said it worked, I just do not remember where and searches are not showing me anything. It was likely the Wheel and Tire forum.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I know someone on here did the same thing with rubber cement and they said it worked nicely.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Congratulations.


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## slannon (Feb 6, 2007)

slocaus said:


> I remember reading somewhere about a person doing this with thin tires known to weep and take days to seal. They said it worked, I just do not remember where and searches are not showing me anything. It was likely the Wheel and Tire forum.


I posted that up a while ago- Just took the mix and used a paint brush and coated the inside of my WWLT- Live in Florida, so just gave it a day- Dried up and still working well after 4 months. Rear WWLT- Never did the inside coating and it's been weeping for 1.5 years..


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## 5H2O (Oct 8, 2009)

CommuterBoy said:


> Congratulations.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

^^ I'm glad someone else saw that. That was weird. :lol:

Back on topic, slannon as I remember it you used the full mixed secret sauce for coating the inside of the tire, right? 

I'm wondering about straight-up latex mold builder... seems like it would harden up nicely to form a non-porus rubberized coating.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

CommuterBoy said:


> Hootsmon, what do you weigh and what is your WSS variant?
> 
> I'm 210 lbs, using WSS version 1 with 1/2 part extra slime (my antifreeze is EG)
> The seepage looks like tiny droplets of antifreeze.


CB, sorry for the slow response. I weigh ~95kg nekked (don't look), and my recipe is standard WSS, only evolved slightly to utilize cheap locally available ingredients. Here's the current mix:

1 part Shamrock Rubber Latex from local art-supplies store
1 part Liquid Patch Puncture Sealant Slime from Super Cheap Auto store.
1 part Propylene Glycol from Andale. Note: This stuff is pure PG, so I dilute it about 25% with water before using.
2 parts water
So in hindsight, about the only novel thing about this brew is using PG instead of EG.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

hootsmon said:


> CB, sorry for the slow response. I weigh ~95kg nekked (don't look), and my recipe is standard WSS, only evolved slightly to utilize cheap locally available ingredients. Here's the current mix:
> 
> 1 part Shamrock Rubber Latex from local art-supplies store
> 1 part Liquid Patch Puncture Sealant Slime from Super Cheap Auto store.
> ...


So you have V1p.


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## badhknese86 (Apr 10, 2010)

wadester said:


> No more of a pain than any other conversion.
> 
> Just purchased all of the ingredients so here's a "quicky:" When you guys say converting the rims... all there is to it is wrapping "gorilla" tape or something similar around it right? (like Stan's video?)


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## 2fst4u (Dec 2, 2006)

Hey guys, I've raced on the the V2 formula last season with no issues-it works awesome. I have kenda karmas on both my 29er and 26inch bikes. I'm wanting to try the antifreeze but am still unclear on which product works for the formula. I know it's been covered but can someone give a link of what antifreeze works???? Thanks guys.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

2fst4u said:


> Hey guys, I've raced on the the V2 formula last season with no issues-it works awesome. I have kenda karmas on both my 29er and 26inch bikes. I'm wanting to try the antifreeze but am still unclear on which product works for the formula. I know it's been covered but can someone give a link of what antifreeze works???? Thanks guys.


Go to autozone (or similar) and get a gallon of their cheapest antifreeze, that will be the EG used for V1.

Some have been using food grade PG for mixing V1p.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

badhknese86 said:


> [Just purchased all of the ingredients so here's a "quicky:" When you guys say converting the rims... all there is to it is wrapping "gorilla" tape or something similar around it right? (like Stan's video?)


Pretty much - except you need to invest some attention to detail there. Cleaning the rim, putting the tape on straight and even - oh, and getting the tape width right. either trim the roll, or trim the tape during/after application.


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## 2fst4u (Dec 2, 2006)

bsieb said:


> Go to autozone (or similar) and get a gallon of their cheapest antifreeze, that will be the EG used for V1.
> 
> Some have been using food grade PG for mixing V1p.


So this would be ok?

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/ca...tegoryDisplayName=Chemicals&_requestid=250998


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

2fst4u said:


> So this would be ok?
> 
> http://www.autozone.com/autozone/ca...tegoryDisplayName=Chemicals&_requestid=250998


Read the label, does it say Polyethylene Glycol? :madman:


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

2fst4u said:


> So this would be ok?
> 
> http://www.autozone.com/autozone/ca...tegoryDisplayName=Chemicals&_requestid=250998


:thumbsup:


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## 2fst4u (Dec 2, 2006)

RandyBoy said:


> Read the label, does it say Polyethylene Glycol? :madman:


Ok, but the problem was the other additives (or so i thought) that caused the mixture to turn into a solid-that's why I asked and yes I did realize that it has PG in it.


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## Dikkie (Dec 16, 2005)

Installed 2 Big Apple tires on my new Crest 29'er wheelset.
Brew I made:
3p latex
3p water
1p slime for motorbike tires
1p windshieldwasher 'Twido'(I smell some ammonia and alcohol in it, foamy feeling between fingers)
A tablespoon of glitter.
Viscosity like coffeecreamer.
Mixture starts to settle after 1 day, darker green on the bottom of the bottle and milky light green on top, can be mixed again easily though.
The Big Apples were easy to air up tubeless.
Though the tires hold air very well, they keep sweating through the sidewalls though.
The area between rim edge and the 'dynamo-strip' doesn't want to seal.
Even after more than a month.
Hundred's of tiny light green patches and a few foamy dots too.
I don't bother much because they hold their pressure very good.

Added a cup of my home brew stuff in a Racing Ralph tire on another wheelset for which I always used Stan's before.
Even this well sealed tire showes 'sweatspots' now, not so obvious though, just tiny colorless wetspots.
Guess, the fluid remains wet to long, and is penetrating the rubber easier or is it because the windowwasherfluid makes the surface tension to low???


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

I went with the latex/2 slime/2 water mix last night to try tubeless on my rear for the first time with Gorilla tape. Things went very well/easy, the bead seated with the compressor (and valve core out) without any soapy solution, etc. 

I put ~40psi in it and was feeling pretty confident it was holding as I heard a few leaks pssst out so went to bed. This morning, no air. After pumping up and submerging, it has tons of tiny pinholes in the sidewalls. BTW, it's a Conti Mountain King 2.2 which probably isn't the best candidate but I'm trying anyway.

Anyway, I have now figured I didn't put enough sealant in, about 3oz last night. I added 2 more this morning but am not sure I got enough all at once so I can get the sidewalls coated and maybe try again this afternoon if it's flat again.

Awesome thread and so far a pretty painless experience for me.

Also, when I measured the sealant, it was frothy from me shaking/mixing it up, should I try to get actual liquid and let it settle first before measuring?


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## 5H2O (Oct 8, 2009)

SuperJETT, did you slowly spin the tire on its side to get the mix to coat the inside of the tire? Also, try laying the wheel flat on something like a trashcan to get all the pinholes to seal. I usually let the wheel sit for about an hour, turn it over, and do the same for the other side. 

I've had pretty good luck with my MK's, but my son has one he did as well and that damn thing weeps constantly. I think the main thing is to get enough mix in there and then go out and ride a few times to get it all coated.

BTW, I use the same mixture, but add a bit more water to thin it out.


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

Yeah, tried all that but I think the actual liquid volume was way too little to coat everything. I may go ahead and dismount it now so I can check how well it did coat so I know for the front tire.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

5H2O said:


> BTW, I use the same mixture, but add a bit more water to thin it out.


I mixed up a similar brew, but with a lot more watter

1 pt latex mold builder
2 pts tubeless slime
3 pts water

It was just way too thick with only 2 pts water. Anyway, I mounted up a pair of Maxxis Ardent 2.4's yesterday. (the non-ust version) I used a variation on the bmx tube method that worked like a charm. I wish i would have figured it out years ago. Only took about 10 minutes to mount both tires. Right off the bat the tires were holding air with no leaking or sputtering at all. I thought it was too good to be true, but after a few hours, there was still no air loss. I went for a short ride to try them out and try to force them to leak a little bit, but nothing. This morning i went down to check on them and sure enough, they are at the same pressure i left them at yesterday.

Awesome. I love making alterations to the normal brew and the mounting method. Its way fun making things work for yourself


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

SuperJETT said:


> Yeah, tried all that but I think the actual liquid volume was way too little to coat everything. I may go ahead and dismount it now so I can check how well it did coat so I know for the front tire.


You have plenty of sealant, I use 2 oz in Exiwolfs without problems. Ride around the block after inflating with sealant, which works well to distribute it and work it in to the tire pores. Some tires take a little longer than others to seal up, your experience is very common. As long as you are riding the tire will stay up, because the sealant is flooding the whole tire. It will keep getting sealed better as you ride.


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## NK4130 (May 5, 2010)

use stans


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

Do you mix your sealant up before measuring? Mine looks just like anyone else's on here, so I'm confident it's mixed right just not sure I'm getting enough actual liquid in the tire.

Just to satisfy myself, I'm going to pull the tire to see what it looks like inside, clean it out, and do it again.


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

NK4130 said:


> use stans


Thanks for that very informative post. :thumbsup:


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## brewdog (Jan 6, 2004)

too many pages and too many posts to tryt to find this info - 

what's the purpose of the AF? This is the only fluid weeping form ym sidewalls. Think I'll use water next batch, unless the AF is crucial top the mix.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

brewdog said:


> too many pages and too many posts to tryt to find this info -
> 
> what's the purpose of the AF? This is the only fluid weeping form ym sidewalls. Think I'll use water next batch, unless the AF is crucial top the mix.


Antifreeze (either of the glycols) serves 2 purposes;

1) to keep the sealant from freezing (duh?)

2) antifreeze does not evaporate very quickly (look at vapor pressures), and keeps the sealant active/not dried out longer


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## brewdog (Jan 6, 2004)

got it, thanks.


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

Good news, it had pressure when I got home so the extra shot I gave it this morning helped.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

In my experience Maxxis tires weep the least.


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

I did the front last night, put around 5oz of non-frothy sealant in and it did pretty well.

Awesome thread.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

SuperJETT said:


> I did the front last night, put around 5oz of non-frothy sealant in and it did pretty well.
> 
> Awesome thread.


5 oz = 200 gm (40 gm per ounce)

About the same as running tubes... that's almost a pound of sealant for two tires. :eekster:

Still better than tubes, ride wise.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I only use 2.5 ounces in a fat 29er tire. If you need that much something is likely wrong.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

SuperJETT said:


> I did the front last night, put around 5oz of non-frothy sealant in and it did pretty well.
> 
> Awesome thread.


Whoa! really?

That is enough for two wheels of mine. I have nine wheels tubeless and none have that much.

You need to lay those down sideways on boxes or trash cans and let them set for a day or two, flipping every couple hours. I have had tires take almost three full days to finally seal.

Patience will work better than gallons of sealant.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

slocaus said:


> Whoa! really?
> 
> That is enough for two wheels of mine. I have nine wheels tubeless and none have that much.
> 
> ...


So how does the maintenance compare to 9 tubed wheels? I currently maintain four sets, three of which are true tubeless, one set is ghetto with Gorilla tape just to keep my feet on the ground. The ghetto setup (Delgado Disc/old Exiwolfs) will leak down and slip off the beads over time, but always airs right up again and stays up for almost a week.


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

It's my first time, and I'm supposed to ride this afternoon so wanted to make sure it was sealed first try.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

bsieb said:


> So how does the maintenance compare to 9 tubed wheels? I currently maintain four sets, three of which are true tubeless, one set is ghetto with Gorilla tape just to keep my feet on the ground. The ghetto setup (Delgado Disc/old Exiwolfs) will leak down and slip off the beads over time, but always airs right up again and stays up for almost a week.


Four are Stan's Arch rims, one Flow rim, with yellow tape and valves, two are Stan's rim strips, two are "semi-ghetto" DT road rims (with 29 x 2.1 tires) with Stan' yellow tape and valves.



Eight of these are on four bikes that all get ridden at least every two weeks, so pressure is maintained, and I just add an ounce or two of fluid every 3 months or so.

The other wheel with the Flow is a fixed disc rear that gets some air every few weeks if it is not getting ridden (it gets mostly fall - winter -spring use). Before the fixed disc wheel, I had an On-One wheel with TomiCog, ghetto with a Saguaro, and it would pop beads and need the compressor to seat if I did not keep over 10 psi in it. My experience is that Stans rims do not pop the bead when there is no air pressure.

I don't get flats, so it is really easy - easier than changing tubes on the trail.


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

I finally decided to pull the front tire off the rim as it was still bubbling/seeping over a week later and not improving.

It's better now, I think I just had too much sealant and it didn't get enough oxygen to let it start to cure before getting outside the tire. The inside was coated really well and it was sticky and after reseating/inflating it started to seal up nicely this time around. 

My guess is it just needed to hit the air for a bit. It would have done it over time with me continually pumping fresh air in, but this helped accelerate it?


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## downhiller900sl (Mar 15, 2010)

I've just completed my tubeless conversion (ghetto mode) for a DH bike with Kenda Excavators 2.5 Sticky rubber wire bead, made only on the rear for testing purposes, and with the successful results, now i'm going tubeless at the front tire too.

Got a 24" tube (couldn't find 20's with schrader valve here in Venezuela)
made ghetto mode tubeless conversion
made my own brew:
-3 part slime tubeles
-1 part stans
-1 part water.

seeped air first week. first Sunday, had a total of eight 8 minute DH runs along the day (rock gardens, lateral skidding/drifting, 5ft drops, 24ft gap jumps) and had to check pressure for the first 3 runs, stayed at 15psi for the las 5, and for the week after.

second Sunday 15 psi and still holding air up after 9 runs along the day.

i had to make my own brew because here in Venezuela i am unable to find mold builder and thought that if i put more slime the sealant would be a bit more tacky and it would hold air.

I'm very happy with the results! thanks for all the info! i decided to go tubeless after reading this thread. thanks to all!


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

SuperJETT said:


> My guess is it just needed to hit the air for a bit. It would have done it over time with me continually pumping fresh air in, but this helped accelerate it?


Or you just have a tire with a pretty porous sidewall. I'm going to 'paint' the inner sidwalls of my next set with pure latex next time... I'm convinced this will be the holy grail of ghetto tubeless.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

CommuterBoy said:


> Or you just have a tire with a pretty porous sidewall. I'm going to 'paint' the inner sidwalls of my next set with pure latex next time... I'm convinced this will be the holy grail of ghetto tubeless.


Tire liners and tubes are made of butyl rubber because butyl rubber is the least porous to air. If you really want to get fancy, you might want to try some butyl paint instead of latex paint. There are liquid butyl products on the market for caulking, roof repair and such.

(Sounds too complicated for me, I'll just throw a tube in my tire for now  )


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

It's not latex paint...


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

SuperJETT said:


> It's not latex paint...


Right, liquid latex rubber painted on. When I wrote it I didn't realize that "latex paint" refers to something completely different!


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## Treetrimmer (Dec 8, 2008)

*Rebar Puncture*

Thought I would share this one! I was riding at my home trail Rowlett Creek Nature Preserve on loop 13 (this section has concrete throughout as part of the challenge) when I got a sizeable puncture. Tire was hissing and spooge was flying. Was able to ride it in to the trail head and lost a good 10psi. I knew it was a larger than normal hole but I did not realize what it was until I got home with a closer look and saw the circular impression around the puncture. It must have been #3 rebar, I have seen some off the trail and I found one on...

My homebrew had no glitter/filler, etc, just an unmeasured "consistancy" mix using the slime made for tubes, mold builder, etc.


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

So 4 weeks have passed and I was getting antifreeze-looking liquid dripping very slowly onto the garage floor and I'm still having to pump every few days. I decided to pull the tires and check out what they look like.

Here's a pic of the rear:









I know there is too much inside, but my question is does my mix look decent? I could wipe the rubber buildup off the tire inside fairly easily with a rag and am ready to remount it but want to make sure I have the mix right. I did 1 latex/2 slime/2 water and have plenty left to redo both tires and plenty more of the materials to mix up more.

I want to do it fairly quickly as my wife/I are leaving tomorrow afternoon for her riding clinic and could stick tubes in if absolutely needed.


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## Ben H (May 20, 2004)

I'm getting ready mix up some WSS V2 and am surprised that your mix seems to have turned to mostly paste. I can see how that paste consistency wouldn't seal a leak.


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

I went ahead and cleaned them out, remounted and filled with ~3oz per tire and they have sealed up pretty quickly. I'm rotating them 120 and 90 degrees and flipping/etc so should be fine for our trip this weekend. I used the same mix as a month ago, but made sure not to shake it and froth it up.


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

SuperJETT

I think you are having trouble primarily because you are not using a split tube. I think if you go back to the start and redo the conversion using a Conti MTB26 tube or some other tube with a removeable core you will not lose air.

Regarding the quantity of sealant. How often to you puncture? I hardly ever puncture, so when I install a tyre, I use hardly any sealant. This doesn't matter because I am using a split tube and it would almost work without sealant.

If I get a puncture, I can just remove the core, bung in a small amount of sealant, rotate the puncture down and air up with CO2. I haven't punctured since doing this, but it's no different than if the sealant was already in there, except I have to stop for a minute. Far less time than changing a tube. If your sealant is all boogered up, you too will have to stop and deal with a real mess.

Having dried out sealant means I get no more weeping aswell. 

If you are puncturing regularly then you'll have to deal with active sealant in the tyres, but I am definately sure that a split tube will eliminate your air loss.

Either way, best wishes for sorting it out.


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## Dikkie (Dec 16, 2005)

I have the same findings.
Used some Windshieldwasherfluid in my mix.(3p latex/3p water/1p slime/1p wsf)
Shouldn't have done that, it contained ammonia and soap!
Tire is holding pressure but the mix seeps through the sidewalls (tires Racing Ralphs seeled before with Stans)


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

MagicCarpet said:


> SuperJETT
> 
> I think you are having trouble primarily because you are not using a split tube. I think if you go back to the start and redo the conversion using a Conti MTB26 tube or some other tube with a removeable core you will not lose air.
> 
> ...


My air loss is through the sidewalls, not the bead or valve stem or spokes, so a split tube won't help, plus my current tires are so difficult to get on the rims as-is that adding a split tube in there would probably drive me batty.

I haven't had any real issues with it yet, just feeling my way through to see what the best solution is going to be.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

SuperJETT said:


> I went ahead and cleaned them out, remounted and filled with ~3oz per tire and they have sealed up pretty quickly. I'm rotating them 120 and 90 degrees and flipping/etc so should be fine for our trip this weekend. I used the same mix as a month ago, but made sure not to shake it and froth it up.


I have found a ride is effective for working the sealant into the tire, more so than anything else I've tried. They may also weep less because the sealant doesn't have time to separate as the latex immediately follows the EG into the tire pores. I haven't had a very big sample base to observe so I hope someone else tries it too. But now I don't add sealant on new installs (after seating the beads) until I'm ready to go ride. I have had new installs that sat around for some days or weeks before getting ridden, and they always seep and leak clear liquid until they have a ride or two on them, whereas I think the immediately ridden wheels don't do it as much. It could also be that the leaky liguid gets wiped off more on a ride, so I hope time will shed more insight.


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## Drorl (Apr 7, 2007)

*my take: sawdust*

i use sawdust instead of Sparkle


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Drorl said:


> i use sawdust instead of Sparkle


Doesn't sawdust spontaneously combust if you let it sit for any length of time? (I'm seeing melted tires on bikes that aren't ridden daily.)

Just askin' not sayin. 

I bet it makes some great booger balls...


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

bsieb said:


> Doesn't sawdust spontaneously combust if you let it sit for any length of time? (I'm seeing melted tires on bikes that aren't ridden daily.)
> 
> Just askin' not sayin.
> 
> I bet it makes some great booger balls...


Dry sawdust can light itself up - via heat of decomposition - in big heaps. Probably not an issue in a nice, wet sealant mix.

OTOH, I bet this is the stuff Stan uses in his mix - looks like cornmeal, but sawdust would be cheap/easy. I'd still rather use ground up rubber.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

wadester said:


> Dry sawdust can light itself up - via heat of decomposition - in big heaps. Probably not an issue in a nice, wet sealant mix.
> 
> OTOH, I bet this is the stuff Stan uses in his mix - looks like cornmeal, but sawdust would be cheap/easy. I'd still rather use ground up rubber.


Plus no chance of a methane explosion with rubber, isn't that what happens when you add liquid to sawdust and let it sit in the sun? The self inflating aspects of generating methane in the tire itself are intriguing, however. With a calibrated pressure relief valve in the stem the tire would maintain optimum pressure.


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## gsxunv04 (May 10, 2010)

Well this is a very informative thread. I just thumebd through it all and am still not sure if I should make the jump to tubeless. Is there much of a problem when you guys get a leak and sealant goes flying all over the gears and brake rotors/calipers? Is the homebrew recipe(or any sealant) easy to clean off of the bike components once it has gotten slung all over the place in the event of a leak/puncture? 
Thanks everyone!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I have never seen more than a few bubbles oozing out of a leak, but after having blown a difficult tire off the rim while greatly over inflating I can say that your hair and glasses are hard to clean it off, especially if it dries.  There are only a few tablespoons in the tire so prolly not enough to drench your rear wheel, but I can also say it is possible to wipe off dried dribbles of WSS with a damp detailing rag.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

SuperJETT said:


> I know there is too much inside, but my question is does my mix look decent? I could wipe the rubber buildup off the tire inside fairly easily with a rag and am ready to remount it but want to make sure I have the mix right. I did 1 latex/2 slime/2 water and have plenty left to redo both tires and plenty more of the materials to mix up more.
> .


No, you need some ammonia in there to help keep the laytex more solvent, that's why it's balling up so much. Instead of water, use windex.


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## gsxunv04 (May 10, 2010)

So Slime for tubeless tires, windex, latex molder builder, purple glitter and RV anti freeze? Are those the ideal ingriedients or should I change a few out? Is cheap "House" brand antifreeze better or RV anti freeze?
Are the amounts from wadesters original post still the rec'd dosages?
1 part Latex mold builder
1 part Slime tubeless
1 part cheap antifreeze(or RV)
2 parts water(windex)


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

I'm running his updated recipe, 1 latex, 2 slime, 2 water, no glitter. http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=6616740&postcount=443


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## gsxunv04 (May 10, 2010)

ok, so no glitter and just plain water, no windex. thanks for the suggestion!


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

gsxunv04 said:


> So Slime for tubeless tires, windex, latex molder builder, purple glitter and RV anti freeze? Are those the ideal ingriedients or should I change a few out? Is cheap "House" brand antifreeze better or RV anti freeze?
> Are the amounts from wadesters original post still the rec'd dosages?
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 1 part Slime tubeless
> ...


There have been lots of variations and additives.
All the answers and more are in the thread, scan through it, you will learn a tremendous amount.


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## countryboy20 (May 31, 2010)

well if you can count store bot mix then i think i have found the best stand alone one. it called SealSafe made by victor. this stuff seams to be a mix of latex mold some fibers and some red and blue particles. it was 12$ for 32 oz and 30$ for a gallon. i put 1 cup in each wheel and it sealed instantly and dosent loose air! so i will report back in a few rides if i hit a nail or thorn. i think it is the best stuff that u can just buy and use instantly. got it from advanced auto parts in florida. the pics are of the left over i had in my bowl after 4 hrs in open air. it still wet but it has started to coagulate. i still hear it if i shake my tire.


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## Ben H (May 20, 2004)

Looks interesting. Go poke some holes in your tires and let us know how it does!


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## countryboy20 (May 31, 2010)

hahahaha ya will do hang on. NOT trust but dont tempt!


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## gsxunv04 (May 10, 2010)

That seal safe looks promising. Now we just need some more "consumer" field testing to see if its worth a darn. If it is decent it would be worth a try at that price range. Thanks for the recommendation countryboy


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## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

that stuff looks pretty thick out in the air - i assume it's thinner straight out of the bottle, is it similar to stans in consistency? also - 1 cup? is that the recommended amount for a mtb tire or just what you decided to put in as a test?


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## countryboy20 (May 31, 2010)

I have never seen stans inperson the sealsafe is like cottage cheese no lumps. It recomended 4 oz but that would just coat the inside and had no extra to shake around to seal the bead so I put a cup in the next tire and it sealed and didn't even leak air. Added more to the first tire and then it stops leaking from the bead. Now in the morring it is at the same presure an there is a little bit of black liquid the is very slowely comming from the bead but at the same presure.


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## countryboy20 (May 31, 2010)

ok so here are some close ups of the safe seal it has yellow blue green red white particles and some really fine fibers. thats 2 days just siting in a cup


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> 5 oz = 200 gm (40 gm per ounce) About the same as running tubes... that's almost a pound of sealant for two tires. :eekster: Still better than tubes, ride wise.
> 
> 
> yourdaguy said:
> ...


If 2 oz. of Stan's lasts 3 months wouldn't 4 oz. last 6 months?

I haven't decided to do this yet but if I did I'd go ghetto and use the latest WSS and I wouldn't think that having MORE in the tire would be a bad thing. I'm just a normal rider, no stunter, no racer. I don't care if my tires have less weight in sealant than tubes or if they have the equivalent of 3 tube's weight in them. I wanna know punctures will seal and that I will be spending the least amount of time refilling them with sealant.


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## gsxunv04 (May 10, 2010)

Can anyone compare stans viscosity to the Seal Safe. In the picture it looks a lot thicker(more would be needed, 1 cup per tire sounds like a lot). I would be worried it wouldnt coat the inside of the tire as easily. Maybe you could dillute it with a little water and be able to use less, like in the 2 oz. range?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Sealsafe by Victor - had to pull this out of netcache. Can't find an MSDS, but sounds like another latex/chunks/fibers blend:

1. Seals:
Victor Tire Sealant uses ceramic fibers to form a plug. When a puncture occurs, the air pressure pushes the fibers into the hole. This plug is flexible and can stretch with the tire during varying conditions such as low inflation, full load, empty load. The seal is permanent and will last the life of the tire. Victor Tire Sealants will seal any hole caused by a puncture in the tread area up to a 1/4” diameter.

2. Tire Balance:
Technology is the secret behind Victor Tire Sealant’s ability to have no effect on properly balanced tires. Once installed in a vehicle, the sealant will spread itself out to a 1/16th of an inch layer on the inside of the tread area (if proper amount is installed) . When the tire heats up, this 1/16” layer forms a skin on the outside that is similar to what you see on the top of a can of paint after it has been opened. This skin keeps the product in place preventing pooling and product movement during quick starts and stops. Other sealants cause imbalance because they are constantly moving around when the vehicle is stationary, brakes hard or accelerates quickly.

3. Anti-Corrosive:
Inhibitors have been added to Victor Tire Sealant’s to protect metals in contact with the product. These metals are found in the rim (steel or aluminum), in the steel belts of the tire, and on the valve stem (brass). It is a formulation with similar anticorrosive properties such as the ones found in antifreeze.

4. Long-Lasting:
Victor Tire Sealant will remain effective for the life of the tire whether it be 6 months or 10 years. Other products may separate but Victor Tire Sealants are strong enough to withstand the centrifugal force and heat produced in any high speed tire. In other words, no matter how long the product is spun, when the tire is worn out and pulled off the rim, Victor Tire Sealant will look and act exactly as the day it was installed.

5. Safe & Easy-to-Use:
Victor Tire Sealant is a water soluble product so you can rinse Victor Tire Sealant out with a hose in seconds. Also, Victor Tire Sealant is non-explosive, noncombustible & nonflammable.


The price looks the same as tubeless slime - and if it does indeed skin over and keep liquid under that, might even meet their "long lasting, life of tire" claim.

I'm looking forward to seeing a long term test pic (post failure/dead tire)


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

I may grab some and try it since my Mountain Kings don't seem like they're ever going to seal with my current mix.


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

SuperJETT said:


> I may grab some and try it since my Mountain Kings don't seem like they're ever going to seal with my current mix.


My MKs seal easily with WSS v.1. Mix of Latex, RV antifreeze, water, slime.

They weep sealant like crazy from the sidewalls, but hold air with no problem. I've been using the same mix for over a year and have had only one fail and that was a big ole crash that'd have torn anything up.
I rarely even add any more sealant, just pulled off my rear, still wet inside after well over 6 months but no puddle.

Dropped some more in, cleaned the bead and re pumped up with floor pump and some soapy water. Left it on its side that night and was still at same pressure in the morning.


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## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

wadester said:


> Sealsafe by Victor - had to pull this out of netcache. Can't find an MSDS, but sounds like another latex/chunks/fibers blend:
> 
> 1. Seals:
> Victor Tire Sealant uses ceramic fibers to form a plug. When a puncture occurs, the air pressure pushes the fibers into the hole. This plug is flexible and can stretch with the tire during varying conditions such as low inflation, full load, empty load. The seal is permanent and will last the life of the tire. Victor Tire Sealants will seal any hole caused by a puncture in the tread area up to a 1/4" diameter.
> ...


i can't find MSDS online either but i think i'm going to order some and give it a shot. 
another interesting thing - it appears BELL automotive owns Victor. BELL auto is based in scottsdale, AZ, not too far from me. i'll give them a call later and see if i can get the MSDS on this product.

edit: called and requested MSDS - was told to email my request and explain that i wasn't a business and what i was using it for. hopefully i get a reply.


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

craigshaf said:


> My MKs seal easily with WSS v.1. Mix of Latex, RV antifreeze, water, slime.
> 
> They weep sealant like crazy from the sidewalls, but hold air with no problem. I've been using the same mix for over a year and have had only one fail and that was a big ole crash that'd have torn anything up.
> I rarely even add any more sealant, just pulled off my rear, still wet inside after well over 6 months but no puddle.
> ...


I'm using v.2 and leak ~5psi/day which isn't that big of a deal, I just pump them up before I ride.

I'll probably try the Victor stuff and pick up some rv antifreeze while I'm there to mix up some v.1 and test some in each tire.


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

SuperJETT said:


> I'm using v.2 and leak ~5psi/day which isn't that big of a deal, I just pump them up before I ride.
> 
> I'll probably try the Victor stuff and pick up some rv antifreeze while I'm there to mix up some v.1 and test some in each tire.


Here's my mixture and original posting from June of last year. Wow, it was exactly one year ago now:

_Quote:
Originally Posted by wadester
I looked up RV plumbing antifreeze - what it is, is 25-30% Propylene Glycol mixed with water. If you use this stuff you don't need 2 parts water - just 3 parts RVPAF.

And let us know how it mixed up._

I mixed it up Friday evening and remounted my Rampage 29x2.35. Mounted up pretty easily with a floor pump. Big tear right down the center bead of the tire. It sealed the hole up. Took it out for a beating today and it held air really well. Saw a couple of spots along the bead seal themselves at the beginning of the ride, but that must have stopped since I have plenty of pressure after a good rocky beating at Llyods in Truckee today.

As recommended by the mix master himself, I mixed 1 pt. Slime, 1 pt. mold builder, 3 pts. RV antifreeze (PE).

Mixed and shook it up real well in a glass jar I got from my local bulk food store.

Put 6 oz. in the tire. Looks good.

Thanks for this thread!!


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## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

*sealsafe MSDS*

this is what i got from bell automotive regarding the sealsafe sealant. while researching american sealants company, inc. i ran into this product as well: http://www.flatfree.com/index.html


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

Craig you put SIX ounces of sealant in your tire? That seems like insane overkill.


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

Jim311 said:


> Craig you put SIX ounces of sealant in your tire? That seems like insane overkill.


**EDIT**

I use 2 x 1/3 cup scoops.

I went with that number based on a posting from a while back from the mix master himself. He mentioned that Stans recommended 3 x 2oz scoops per tire. I copied that.

How much do you all put in your tires? I run 29 x 2.4 (f) and 29 x 2.2 (r)


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I generally put 3.5 to 4 oz in 29er 2.2 to 2.4 tires.


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## Jim311 (Feb 7, 2006)

I use 60cc (2 ounces)


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Jim311 said:


> I use 60cc (2 ounces)


+1

2 to 3 ozs is pretty common for 29ers, I would only use 3 oz on large volume tyres.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Maybe I should cut back about an ounce or so.


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

bsieb said:


> +1
> 
> 2 to 3 ozs is pretty common for 29ers, I would only use 3 oz on large volume tyres.


just checked, lately I've been using 1/2 cup, so 4 oz.
It seems to work for me. I'm gonna stick with that.


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## Dictatorsaurus (Sep 11, 2009)

Had a 2mm slide in the middle of the tire and I was using wadester's original recipe. Disappointed to say it didn't seal up.

Any recommended modification to that recipe?

I'm thinking of running 1 part wadester's brew and 1 part stans. What do you think?


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## gsxunv04 (May 10, 2010)

Dictatorsaurus said:


> Had a 2mm slide in the middle of the tire and I was using wadester's original recipe. Disappointed to say it didn't seal up.
> 
> Any recommended modification to that recipe?
> 
> I'm thinking of running 1 part wadester's brew and 1 part stans. What do you think?


I would add some of the "seal safe" from autozone in. It is made for car tires so I would think its "chunks" would be able to fill slightly larger holes.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

I just had to re-seal my 2.25 RRalph. 

Scrapped out the gobbers and added 2 oz. Tire wouldn't seal so I added 2oz more.

Sure enough 4oz seems to do the job at sealing up the tire for me as well.


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## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

add another to the mix:
http://www.facebook.com/people/PurpleGoo-Tire-Sealant/100000655236987#!/profile.php?id=100000655236987&v=wall


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## honkonbobo (Nov 18, 2006)

someone probably said this but i couldnt find it in this ever longer thread...

how many ounces is a stans scoop?


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## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

honkonbobo said:


> someone probably said this but i couldnt find it in this ever longer thread...
> 
> how many ounces is a stans scoop?


2oz.


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

My next attempt will be tonight after I get my new BWW wheels, still with the Conti MKs that are still weeping in the sidewalls.

Any suggestions on what mix to try this time around? I used v.2, 1 latex/2 slime/2 water and it seems like the sidewalls let the liquid seep out and I'm left with a thick coating inside, plus having to continually pump fresh air in probably helps accelerate the latex curing?

Both times I did them, they would lose maybe 5psi/day for the first week or two but later on the rear tire will lost most of it's air each day and you can see the wet areas on the sidewalls.

I may just have to "retire" these and go to something else though others have had good luck with them.


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

You guys get pretty wacked out with your formulas... (when I say "wacked out", I mean, involved...) For the past eight years or so, I've been running a mixture of Mold Builder latex and windshield washer fluid, mixed at a ratio of approx. 2 heaping tsp Mold Builder to 3oz of WW fluid. As an example, using this formula in the 6-7 different bikes I've got built at any given time, I've only experienced one flat tire that the sealant didn't completely seal over the past two full seasons. 

Considering I've ridden nearly 16,000 miles over those two seasons, that's a pretty good record.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

mgersib said:


> You guys get pretty wacked out with your formulas... (when I say "wacked out", I mean, involved...) For the past eight years or so, I've been running a mixture of Mold Builder latex and windshield washer fluid, mixed at a ratio of approx. 2 heaping tsp Mold Builder to 3oz of WW fluid. As an example, using this formula in the 6-7 different bikes I've got built at any given time, I've only experienced one flat tire that the sealant didn't completely seal over the past two full seasons.
> 
> Considering I've ridden nearly 16,000 miles over those two seasons, that's a pretty good record.


Where I live you would have to add that much every month or so because of evaporation, hence the antifreeze, which reduces that to once or twice a year. If you had chunks or fibers in your mix you could have avoided that one flat. Maybe the simplicity of that is worth a couple more ingredients.


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

Went with the original recipe 2water/1rv antifreeze/1latex/1slime. They're laying on the side now.

Related: proper Presta valves with removable cores and Stan's injector is much easier, love the new setup 5 times more than my old.


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

bsieb said:


> Where I live you would have to add that much every month or so because of evaporation, hence the antifreeze, which reduces that to once or twice a year. If you had chunks or fibers in your mix you could have avoided that one flat. Maybe the simplicity of that is worth a couple more ingredients.


I'm not sure where you live, but in temperatures ranging from well below freezing to more than 100 degrees (F), we have no problems with the solution surviving for months at a time. In fact, Guitar Ted recently reported to me that he's used the formula for up to a year at a time with liquid still in the tire upon removal. You must live in some awfully "unique" conditions... but I'm not saying you're wrong.

The one flat was caused by the fact that I was riding a bike that hadn't been ridden in months, and the sealant had dried in one of the wheels. It wasn't a lack of particulate. But good try on the speculation. I haven't had the sealant actually fail to seal a hole on the trail... It's been 100-percent effective in that respect. I want for nothing in terms of "extra ingredients". I just find it humorous that you guys are trying so hard with such complex solutions, when simple formulas are working just fine.


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## Dictatorsaurus (Sep 11, 2009)

mgersib said:


> I find it humorous that you guys are trying so hard, yet continuing to fail so *miserably*


Why change what you initially wrote?

You don't seem like you're a lot of fun to be around. I can see a nice capital D tattooed on your forehead.


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

Dictatorsaurus said:


> Why change what you initially wrote?
> 
> You don't seem like you're a lot of fun to be around. I can see a nice capital D tattooed on your forehead.


... you know what opinions are like. Mine probably stinks just like most of the rest of 'em.


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

You post simply could have been:

I use {brew} formula. It has worked great for me for {time} years with {wheels/tires} set up. I live in {hometown} and have had no problems. 

Instead, you had to throw out jabs. Thus the capital D.


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## Dictatorsaurus (Sep 11, 2009)

mgersib said:


> ... you know what opinions are like. Mine probably stinks just like most of the rest of 'em.


It's not your opinion that stinks, it's your attitude and lack of class.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

mgersib said:


> I'm not sure where you live, but in temperatures ranging from well below freezing to more than 100 degrees (F), we have no problems with the solution surviving for months at a time. In fact, Guitar Ted recently reported to me that he's used the formula for up to a year at a time with liquid still in the tire upon removal. You must live in some awfully "unique" conditions... but I'm not saying you're wrong.
> 
> The one flat was caused by the fact that I was riding a bike that hadn't been ridden in months, and the sealant had dried in one of the wheels. It wasn't a lack of particulate. But good try on the speculation. I haven't had the sealant actually fail to seal a hole on the trail... It's been 100-percent effective in that respect. I want for nothing in terms of "extra ingredients". I just find it humorous that you guys are trying so hard with such complex solutions, when simple formulas are working just fine.


I think it's good to stay with something you can handle. :thumbsup:


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

Dictatorsaurus said:


> It's not your opinion that stinks, it's your attitude and lack of class.


LOL... Thanks for the advice.


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## Dictatorsaurus (Sep 11, 2009)

mgersib said:


> LOL... Thanks for the advice.


I didn't give you any advice. Just pointing something out. You're not very bright are ya!


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

Dictatorsaurus said:


> I didn't give you any advice. Just pointing something out. You're not very bright are ya!


Whatever Dict. Speaking of not very bright -- how about using a question mark when you ask a question? There's an idea, Einstein!


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## Dictatorsaurus (Sep 11, 2009)

mgersib said:


> Whatever Dict. Speaking of not very bright -- how about using a question mark when you ask a question? There's an idea, Einstein!


LOL you're getting pretty desperate, aren't ya?


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

Dictatorsaurus said:


> LOL you're getting pretty desperate, aren't ya?


No.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Ok, everybody cool off. Don't shoot the messenger. If he is right, just mold builder and windshield washer fluid is the best solution even if he did not tell it in the most eloquent manner.


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

mgersib said:


> You guys get pretty wacked out with your formulas... (when I say "wacked out", I mean, involved...) For the past eight years or so, I've been running a mixture of Mold Builder latex and windshield washer fluid, mixed at a ratio of approx. 2 heaping tsp Mold Builder to 3oz of WW fluid. As an example, using this formula in the 6-7 different bikes I've got built at any given time, I've only experienced one flat tire that the sealant didn't completely seal over the past two full seasons.
> 
> Considering I've ridden nearly 16,000 miles over those two seasons, that's a pretty good record.


MG, Can you give me a clearer parts : parts ratio of this mix. I understand if you just heap it in, as you say, on an as needs basis, but what ever clarification you can offer would be appreciated, even just whether tsp is a table spoon or tea spoon. This appeals because all I want to do is seal my bead. I don't even want puncture protection and just carry a little bottle with me incase. I realise that with only two ingredients I can have a pretty good go at it myself, but would like your experienced version to benchmark from if possible.

I think that on my road bike at higher pressures the rubber specs etc may be helpful, but I also suspect for the MTB that the complexity of all these home made recipies, whilst helpfull to some and working well for me too, may not be exactly what I need.

Thanks in advance.


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## 'size (Oct 10, 2005)

MagicCarpet said:


> MG, Can you give me a clearer parts : parts ratio of this mix. I understand if you just heap it in, as you say, on an as needs basis, but what ever clarification you can offer would be appreciated, even just whether tsp is a table spoon or tea spoon. This appeals because all I want to do is seal my bead. I don't even want puncture protection and just carry a little bottle with me incase. I realise that with only two ingredients I can have a pretty good go at it myself, but would like your experienced version to benchmark from if possible.
> 
> I think that on my road bike at higher pressures the rubber specs etc may be helpful, but I also suspect for the MTB that the complexity of all these home made recipies, whilst helpfull to some and working well for me too, may not be exactly what I need.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


tsp is teaspoon and if you go by his description it would be roughly a 6:1 ratio of wwf to latex.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

[QUOTE='size]tsp is teaspoon and if you go by his description it would be roughly a 6:1 ratio of wwf to latex.[/QUOTE]

So at roughly 80 gm per 2 oz I would estimate about 160 gm of a mixture that is probably very close to watered down Stans. For twice the weight it lasts almost as long. Woot.


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

Perhaps price is the motivation. I'm also curious as to how it could be twice the weight of Stans given it's fairly simplistic composition.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

MagicCarpet said:


> Perhaps price is the motivation. I'm also curious as to how it could be twice the weight of Stans given it's fairly simplistic composition.


Because he is using twice as much by volume. A standard "dose" of Stans is 2 oz. I'm calling the 2 "heaping" teaspoons of mold builder 1 oz, plus the 3 oz wwf = 4 oz. The weight per fluid oz is pretty much the same regardless of the composition of the mix for a given viscosity range. At 40 grams per oz, the extra weight adds up quickly, or maybe not if you're not into that sort of thing. A tube weighs 160 gm by comparison.


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

bsieb said:


> So at roughly 80 gm per 2 oz I would estimate about 160 gm of a mixture that is probably very close to watered down Stans. For twice the weight it lasts almost as long. Woot.


It's true that it's very similar in composition to Stan's, but the beauty is that, for hard-to-seal tires, like Racing Ralph EVOs, you can mix it a little thick (or heavy on the Mold Builder) for the initial seal up. That batch of sealant may not last quite as long, but it'll seal the casing up more effectively.

Sorry for the delayed response. I kind of ducked out for a couple of days and focused on riding my bike instead after my lack of eloquence caused such a stir. Sorry about that... I didn't mean to offend anyone. Apparently I wasn't on top of my game that day.


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> Ok, everybody cool off. Don't shoot the messenger. If he is right, just mold builder and windshield washer fluid is the best solution even if he did not tell it in the most eloquent manner.


Thanks man... I appreciate it.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

yourdaguy said:


> Ok, everybody cool off. Don't shoot the messenger. If he is right, just mold builder and windshield washer fluid is the best solution even if he did not tell it in the most eloquent manner.


Maybe best for him.

WSS was developed because Stans doesn't work well for some of us who live in arid climates because it evaporates rather quickly. Continually adding Stans results in big globs of latex if you don't clean it out every time you add it, which makes it all rather a bother. By adding some antifreeze that condition was eliminated in my tires. I have had cuts that Stan's wouldn't seal but never one that the WSS didn't seal. It costs 25 cents per oz to make, what's not to like?

I must admit I don't understand why adding one or two more ingredients is considered so complicated, but in any case doing so has resulted in a sealant that works very well for me 100% of the time under the conditions I ride in.

I hope some day y'all find YOUR best sealant.


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## William_Cannon (May 5, 2009)

This thread has been so helpful!

Here is my contribution...

Ghetto WSS Injector










I remove the valve core and wrap the "baby suction thingy" over the stem or you can also break the bead and slowly inject it down the rim channel so it will roll down the wheel and collect at the bottom of the tire.

If you need to measure the WSS, use a plastic measuring cup and suction it out of that.

I knew those kids would come in handy at some point!!


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

Hey William,

That thing definitely looks like it'd work. :thumbsup: 

But the truth is I actually find it quicker and easier to simply pop the bead open and pour in a scoop or two. Plus my shed is already crammed so full of bike-stuff that I'd never be able to find a gizmo like that when I needed it! But you're right, it's cool that babies come in handy.


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## William_Cannon (May 5, 2009)

I guess it depends on the setup. I hate breaking the seal because I run true ghetto and sometimes it's a bear getting the ghetto rimstrip to line up again. However, it is a pain to remove the valve core with pliers.

Anyone have a trick or tip besides buying Stan's core remover?


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

William_Cannon said:


> I guess it depends on the setup. I hate breaking the seal because I run true ghetto and sometimes it's a bear getting the ghetto rimstrip to line up again. However, it is a pain to remove the valve core with pliers.
> 
> Anyone have a trick or tip besides buying Stan's core remover?


A small crescent wrench works well. Pliers are a bad tool to use for just about anything because they tear up fasteners so quickly.


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

rear tire was completely flat yesterday, rim on the ground. grrr, going to a tube in it until I replace them. The front has sealed up fairly well.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

SuperJETT said:


> rear tire was completely flat yesterday, rim on the ground. grrr, going to a tube in it until I replace them. The front has sealed up fairly well.


I find it takes a few rides to get everything sealed up properly. Some tires have stiffer beads or casings that take longer to settle in, but it's usually only a problem when they are sitting, not on a ride.


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## William_Cannon (May 5, 2009)

William_Cannon said:


> I guess it depends on the setup. I hate breaking the seal because I run true ghetto and sometimes it's a bear getting the ghetto rimstrip to line up again. However, it is a pain to remove the valve core with pliers.
> 
> Anyone have a trick or tip besides buying Stan's core remover?


Spokes kept getting in the way when using conventional tools and $10 is too much for a Stan's Core remover.

So I went to the orange monster and picked up a $0.99 #10 aluminum spacer.










+

2 minutes with my dremel rotary tool










=










Works like a champ.


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

bsieb said:


> I find it takes a few rides to get everything sealed up properly. Some tires have stiffer beads or casings that take longer to settle in, but it's usually only a problem when they are sitting, not on a ride.


I've been trying to get that one tire to seal completely since May, no luck. 2 different mixes, 3 different initial fills, the sidewalls just won't seal like the front has. It's had plenty of riding miles too. I'll just run a tube in it until I decide what new tires I want to buy.


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

I am having some trouble w/ sidewalls sealing as others have mentioned. What's frustrating is that these tires were sealed using Stans and worked fine. I switched to WSS version 2(?) when a cut in one of my wife's tires didn't seal. I am using mold builder, slime and water. It has worked like a charm except for some new old stock Hutchinson Python lights. They are weeping something fierce. 
Would it make sense to seal the tire up w/ stans or a latex mold builder w/o the slime and then add more WSS after the sidewalls have sealed? Or would this be futile?
I have had no issues w/ Maxxis Crossmarks, non UST, and Python TLRs. I really want to use the Python Lights on my wifes 26er. She loves the tread, low RR and lightness. 
Please help.
thanks in advance.
Andy


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

Andy, Is your area puncture prone? If not, then put in a very small amount of your sealant of choice to seal the bead and let it dry out. Then tip in a tiny bit to seal up a puncture if one comes along. I'd recomend asking mgersib if he thinks his latex/wwf solution is more or less prone to weeping, especially if you need active sealant for regular punctures.

Good luck. I hope you persevere and find a solution soon.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have problems with weepage with some tires Prowlers/Stouts but not with many others. The problem is that switching to Stans on the "weepers" the Stans will dry out even faster in the porous tires. That would seal the sidewalls and add weight but then when you get a thorn, there is no sealant left. I have just switched to buying mostly Maxxis tires since they have been weep free for me (Ardents/Ignitors/crossmarks)


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

I believe the latex/WWF is less prone. That is what I used to use w/ these tires and never had weeping problems. The problem I had was there was nothing in the mix to help w/ larger holes, like the black chunks in the slime for ATV tires. That is why I was trying that WSS mix. Has anybody experimented w/ hitting an old tire w/ a bench grinder and produced rubber chunks to throw in the mix? Just wondering.


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## BRUZED (Mar 8, 2006)

Andy13 said:


> I believe the latex/WWF is less prone. That is what I used to use w/ these tires and never had weeping problems. The problem I had was there was nothing in the mix to help w/ larger holes, like the black chunks in the slime for ATV tires. That is why I was trying that WSS mix. Has anybody experimented w/ hitting an old tire w/ a bench grinder and produced rubber chunks to throw in the mix? Just wondering.


I have used a belt sander (80 grit) over a news paper. Works great.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

Has anyone been able to find the mold builder at Michaels or Joanne's, or is Hobby Lobby the only joint?
Thanks


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## Dag Nabbit (May 27, 2009)

ajmelin said:


> Has anyone been able to find the mold builder at Michaels or Joanne's, or is Hobby Lobby the only joint?
> Thanks


Got mine at Michaels.


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## eatdrinkride (Jun 15, 2005)

Dag Nabbit said:


> Got mine at Michaels.


Me to. I had a 50% off coupon, paid about 7 bucks for the tub.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

What brand does Michael carry, and do you remember where in the stote it was? The employees here are looking at me weird!


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

eatdrinkride said:


> Me to. I had a 50% off coupon, paid about 7 bucks for the tub.


Yep... I'm a slave to the 50% off coupon myself. :thumbsup:


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## eatdrinkride (Jun 15, 2005)

ajmelin said:


> What brand does Michael carry, and do you remember where in the stote it was? The employees here are looking at me weird!


I bought Castin' Craft Mold Builder. It's a 16oz plastic tub. The employee I asked couldn't help either but another one pointed me in the right direction. Wish I could tell you where it was, I don't remember exactly. I got mine before Xmas, not sure if they still carry it.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

FOUND IT!!! The employee's had me looking at a powder that is used to make negative molds for repeated use. I found the Castin' Craft by the glues and the "Hodge Podge".


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

ajmelin said:


> FOUND IT!!! The employee's had me looking at a powder that is used to make negative molds for repeated use. I found the Castin' Craft by the glues and the "Hodge Podge".


Bingo...


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I hadn't ridden the RIP9 in about 5 weeks, due to getting ready for and enjoying a 3 week road trip - but it was time to get back into it! Tires were low, around 15psi but pumped right back up and held overnight. Went for a ride Tuesday nite - no problem. Checked the tires on Thursday and the back was at about 5psi - inspected it, no damage. Must be time for more sealant!

Had time Friday and put the bike on the stand. Pulled one bead off, and found not full dryness or a pool of clear green, but 2 small boogers and a soft bead of sealant all around the open tire bead. This was not the usual stringy rubber, but noticeably softer. Cool.

Added sealant (latex/2 slime/2 water variant), pushed the bead over the rim and sprayed with 4:1 soapy water. Hit it with the air tank and it sealed right up. Even the bead soap bubbles stopped quickly. Way cool.

Pulled out the bike maintenance journal to add "resealed tire 8/13/10 w new 5prt sealant", scanned for previous service and found "new tire with new 5prt sealant 8/15/09". Excellent.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I am one of the guys that wadester sent the sodium alginate to for long term testing. I mixed it into about 7 ounces of the original recipe and put it in 2 tires for about 6 months. When I dismounted the tires for my semi-annual "put new sealant in all my tires before it hardens" I couldn't tell any difference in those 2 tires. The bad news is that I had no flats in any of my tires during that 6 months. Where I ride is smooth rocks, roots, and lots of mud with a little dirt thrown in so I seldom flat.

So I guess I was unable to find any significant difference when using the sodium alginate would be my conclusion. Anyway, it seems like the recipe has moved on anyway so all future mixes will be the latex/2 slime/2 water mixture and maybe I can go to a yearly cycle for the 'most of a day' job (I have 4 wheelsets 8 tires).


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## timmycee (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't know if anyone has covered this, but I have found the best thing to help seat the tire is straight coolant. Super slippery and is in the mix anyhow. Good luck.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

timmycee said:


> I don't know if anyone has covered this, but I have found the best thing to help seat the tire is straight coolant. Super slippery and is in the mix anyhow. Good luck.


Soapy sudsy soap mixture applied liberally.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Actually I have found that Dawn mixed with water in a Windex squirt bottle works best. I hold the tire/rim and spray the bead as I rotate the tire then turn it around and spray the other side. Basically puts it mostly on the bead seat of the tire; just where you want it. Antifreeze it way more expensive and harder to clean up the also hazardous to pets spillage.


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## esXso (Sep 23, 2008)

Use only Stans until the tires seal up. Keep it in there until it nearly evaporates over a couple months. After that period of time put in a 50/50 mix of Slime and Stans. Slime from an autostore already has antifreeze and fibers in it and never seems to dry out like Stans. Easy and effective.


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## gdlals (Mar 3, 2008)

esXso said:


> Use only Stans until the tires seal up. Keep it in there until it nearly evaporates over a couple months. After that period of time put in a 50/50 mix of Slime and Stans. Slime from an autostore already has antifreeze and fibers in it and never seems to dry out like Stans. Easy and effective.


I had a situation happen last week; my sealant in my tire was dry, I had a pretty good size puncture from a large cactus spine and when I got home (I was able to ride out of the trail) I realized that I didn't have any home-brew mixed sealant - and I didn't have any latex to make more.

I decided to add pure Slime ATV - expecting that it would seal everything very well but expecting a lot of weepage from the Slime. Surprisingly, I have seen ZERO seepage which makes me think maybe the best solution is to initially use a latex based mix to seal the tire and seal the bead to the split tube, and then use pure Slime afterwards for its sealing properties on punctures and because it doesn't dry out easily.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

gdlals said:


> I had a situation happen last week; my sealant in my tire was dry, I had a pretty good size puncture from a large cactus spine and when I got home (I was able to ride out of the trail) I realized that I didn't have any home-brew mixed sealant - and I didn't have any latex to make more.
> 
> I decided to add pure Slime ATV - expecting that it would seal everything very well but expecting a lot of weepage from the Slime. Surprisingly, I have seen ZERO seepage which makes me think maybe the best solution is to initially use a latex based mix to seal the tire and seal the bead to the split tube, and then use pure Slime afterwards for its sealing properties on punctures and because it doesn't dry out easily.


My only concern is how the slime compares to latex with slashes. Slashes are the one weak point of sealants.


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

Slashes are the weak point of tubes aswell. I carry a repair kit in case of side wall damage now and no longer carry tubes. I can permanently repair a side wall cut and be aired up again in around 30 minutes and finish my ride.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

That's pretty good going there MC. Takes me a lot longer...but since we last tried meeting up I am running ghetto and really like it. I am just hoping I don't slash the sidewall heavily. I'm too lazy to set up the front but will as soon as I get a puncture.


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

Yeah, I remember that day well, Lance. My one and only tubeless drama, brought on by stupid curiosity and ignorance on my part regarding maximum ghetto/kevalr bead tyre pressure. Looking back I can't understand why I even wanted to increase it, but that's history now. I would have made contact again by now but I know Saturday is bad for you and I have worked my RDOs for ages. I just got them back a couple of weeks ago. This Monday looks wet, but I will aim to phone soon.

Getting back on track, sort of. My only ever side wall cut was at the next intersection north of Joyners Ridge Rd on England Creek Rd. It's at the top of a little climb, so I was going slow and couldn't find anything that even looked close to the culprit despite knowing virtually exactly where it happened.

It was just small enough to do the herniated fiver thing. My lucky day in a way.

Cheers,

Dean


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

MC...saturdays aren't always bad, actually it's sunday these days  I've been off the bike a lot lately with ill health during winter but htat is the usual story. If you're out this way give me a buzz and see if I'm around. I still haven't built up enough k's yet though do do a decent ride


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## red5jedi (Feb 22, 2006)

*Bag of grass*

When I was at Hobby Lobby picking up some liquid latex I noticed this bag of grass. One bag was leaking this stuff all over the place. It's used for model building for like trains and such. It's about the same size of Stan's clogging agent and it feels like some sort of rubber or latex - perfect! So this is what I've got going as of yesterday.

4 - RV antifreeze
4 - Water
2- Fine Turf Grass (T45)
3- liquid latex

Your mixture may vary, I know - but this grass seems like a good alternate to slime.


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

MagicCarpet said:


> Slashes are the weak point of tubes aswell. I carry a repair kit in case of side wall damage now and no longer carry tubes. I can permanently repair a side wall cut and be aired up again in around 30 minutes and finish my ride.


Whats your technique? I've stitched tires up before, but they still need a patch (or shoe glue) to be airtight. This is with SuperCheap slime in my tires.

Cheers


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

G'day Barney

I used a little super glue to hold an old tyre sidewall patch in place while I stitched it. Try dabbing a little on the stitching holes after you have done the patch. The next time you have the tyre off you could smear some shoo goo over it aswell.

I'd like to be able to buy shoo goo in a tiny, once off tube, but haven't seen it. It's really thick to start with, so I am doubtfull as to the lifespan of it if I transfered it to a tiny snap lock bag, for example.

I'm not sure if I have qualified my comments in this thread or only elsewhere, but I have only ever had this happen to me once. It was repaired in the comfort of the lounge room floor, but I didn't use anything I don't carry on me when I ride. I did, at a later date, put some shoo goo on it as a patch maintenance thing, and it never gave me any trouble.

I can only speculate as to why your patch is leaking. Perhaps you pulled too hard on the stiching ans as the sidewall is flexing at the bottom of it's rotation, it is unseating the sealant and having to resealover and over. That's just my best guess.

I am at Coorparoo. If you are in Brisbane, you are welcome to see it and the thread I used etc.


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

Barney, just rereading your post I get the impression you didn't put an old sidewall behind the stitching. This will be the problem. A bit of superglue will hold it there while you make the repair. 

If you just stitched the tear, the sidewall flexation will definately reopen the tear with each revolution.

Sorry about the long post above. Hope I'm with you now. The offer to have a gander at it still stands.


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

MagicCarpet said:


> G'day Barney
> 
> I used a little super glue to hold an old tyre sidewall patch in place while I stitched it. Try dabbing a little on the stitching holes after you have done the patch. The next time you have the tyre off you could smear some shoo goo over it aswell.
> 
> ...


Sorry, should have said that the stiched hole needed a patch to seal, so it wouldn't seal on its own without a patch. I guess I was expenting the sealant to plug the hole, without the use of a patch, but maybe that's asking too much of the sealant?

If it was possible to fix a tyre this way, without a patch, then I could see the possibility of just carrying a needle and thread, rather than a spare tube, in my repair kit. Then If I get a tear, just quickly sew it up, and pump it up again. Could be as quick (and less messy) as putting a tube in.

Don't think it would work though.


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

Barney

I carry a needle, thread, a few of pieces of sidewall, small bottle of Loktite Quicktite, a smallish pill bottle of sealant and a small empty bottle with a nosel to apply the sealant. Also a core remover, two CO2 bottles and a CO2 injector. I have a small, light pump in my Camelbak that has decent air volume.

Sounds a lot, but it's really quite light. The main weight is the CO2 cylinders. Brisbane is good because there are few punctures, so I don't even have active sealant in the tyres. Adelaide and Perth would be a differnet story, I guess.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

For the past 3 or 4 days, My tires are flat in the morning. I pump them up, ride for a few hours w/o problems, but mch later that day/the next moning they are dead flat.
I'm using WSS 1:2:2 latex:ATVslime:water. 
This morning I went for a ride, popped my tire off the side wall with a big rock, and wasn't able to get it to reseat with only the small handpump I carry in my bag. Out comes my spare tube, and when I pulled the tire completely off the bead, my WSS is all dry. Duh.
*Heres the stupid question:*
Do I or should I get all of the old dried up sealant out of the tire before adding more, or just keep adding? 
Thanks for the help, and thanks Wade for the sauce


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

My front tire is doing that too but after a season of hard riding I think that the sidewalls are just about shot which is why it won't seal up anymore.

As for removing the old sealant: unless there is a big booger I just add new stuff.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I always clean mine off with a hose and brush. Takes about 3 minutes per tire. One advantage of WSS is that it cleans off really easy. I bought a used tire that had been used about a week with Calfe Latex and I have never been able to get that stuff off the sidewall.

I generally change my sealant every 6 months so it never has a chance to dry out and leave me stranded. If you are not using "ghetto" system it doesn't take very long to pop the tire off rinse the rim and scrub the tire with a brush (doing it every 6 months the WSS comes off really easy). Pop the tire on spray with Dawn/water mixture and inflate with compressor to pop it on the rim. Remove valve stem dump in the mixture put valve stem in and inflate. The longest part is letting the tires sit on their sides for a while, but you can do other things while that is happening. Like work on the next 2 tires. (I usually do a wheelset at a time.

I have 4 wheelsets and 3 bikes so each Fall and Spring it takes me about 3 hours to cycle through all of them. That is 6 hours a year and I have never had a flat on the road or trail and one flat with problems could easily take several hours of pain and agony. Actually, I take that back. Before I did the 6 month thing I did have a flat that would not seal up on a tire that had been on without attention for 9-10 months and it was because my sealant had dried out. It was a small puncture and it was the reason I started the 6 month cycle.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> I always clean mine off with a hose and brush. Takes about 3 minutes per tire. One advantage of WSS is that it cleans off really easy. I bought a used tire that had been used about a week with Calfe Latex and I have never been able to get that stuff off the sidewall.
> 
> I generally change my sealant every 6 months so it never has a chance to dry out and leave me stranded. If you are not using "ghetto" system it doesn't take very long to pop the tire off rinse the rim and scrub the tire with a brush (doing it every 6 months the WSS comes off really easy). Pop the tire on spray with Dawn/water mixture and inflate with compressor to pop it on the rim. Remove valve stem dump in the mixture put valve stem in and inflate. The longest part is letting the tires sit on their sides for a while, but you can do other things while that is happening. Like work on the next 2 tires. (I usually do a wheelset at a time.
> 
> I have 4 wheelsets and 3 bikes so each Fall and Spring it takes me about 3 hours to cycle through all of them. That is 6 hours a year and I have never had a flat on the road or trail and one flat with problems could easily take several hours of pain and agony. Actually, I take that back. Before I did the 6 month thing I did have a flat that would not seal up on a tire that had been on without attention for 9-10 months and it was because my sealant had dried out. It was a small puncture and it was the reason I started the 6 month cycle.


The reason you have to lay them down to reseal is that you have scrapped the latex that sealed the sidewall off with the brush. I can see rinsing, yes, but not scrubbing with a brush, it just makes more work.

As stated, I remove koosh boogers and recharge tires that stay on. If I switch tires and will store the ones coming off, then I rinse with water, hang to dry, then fold and store.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I never notice any leakage from the sidewall. The bead seat is what needs to seal and usually 10 minutes on each side does it.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Huh, most WTB tires leak pinholes from the sidewalls, and it take 2 -24 hours to seal for me, Conti tires very quick, Maxxis vary widely for me as well, Rampages leak for about 5-6 hours, Kenda Karmas for almost a day. I flip sides every 30-60 minutes except overnight.

Are you using TLR tires? They take minutes.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I don't know what mixture you are using but my old WTB Prowlers used to leak from the side. My latest WTB a WeirWolf LT never leaked a speck.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

I have a tire I'm having trouble stopping the seeping thru the sidewall. I've had to air up about twice per ride. I decided to spray the inside with this to see if it helps seal. It's basically rubber in a spray can.

Stay tuned.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I will stay tuned, but my experience with that product is that adhesion is a problem.


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## gsxunv04 (May 10, 2010)

William_Cannon said:


> Spokes kept getting in the way when using conventional tools and $10 is too much for a Stan's Core remover.
> 
> So I went to the orange monster and picked up a $0.99 #10 aluminum spacer.
> 
> ...


I got a shcrader valve core remover tool from the car parts store for a few bucks($3), Slime brand, and it came with 4 extra valve cores.


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## jeffw-13 (Apr 30, 2008)

Right, so the verdict is in. The plasti dip did nothing to help seal the sidewalls of my Conti Trail King. Damn, it really looked promising too.

I turned the tire inside out & cleaned it thoroughly then let it air dry. The fabric of the casing was visible inside. I sprayed two coats. It covered nicely and it looked great! This morning I mixed up a new batch of sealant and set it up. Soapy water revealed air seeping thru the sidewall at a rate about the same as before and my tire is 20 grams heavier :lol:

Hopefully it will seal this time! Getting frustrated.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

jeffw-13 said:


> Right, so the verdict is in. The plasti dip did nothing to help seal the sidewalls of my Conti Trail King. Damn, it really looked promising too.
> 
> I turned the tire inside out & cleaned it thoroughly then let it air dry. The fabric of the casing was visible inside. I sprayed two coats. It covered nicely and it looked great! This morning I mixed up a new batch of sealant and set it up. Soapy water revealed air seeping thru the sidewall at a rate about the same as before and my tire is 20 grams heavier :lol:
> 
> Hopefully it will seal this time! Getting frustrated.


Tires are butyl rubber. Plasti-Dip is vinyl plastic (with enough oil in it to make it flexible).

The best sidewall coating idea I've heard is to brush with straight mold builder latex, but I know that when a tire finally dries out I can wipe/wash out most of the latex residue.

I'll ask my chemist buddies if there is anything brush-on (and not tooooo toxic) that would bond with butyl rubber and be air "tight" (low permeation).

Maybe this: http://www.fixallroofs.com/butyl_rubber_roof.html


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## minh (May 23, 2004)

when i had a flat-section-roof replaced on my house one of the roofers recommended that EPDM stuff and basically said "it's like the inner tube on a bicycle tire". i thought to myself "my bicycle tires don't have inner tubes... well my road bike does" (eventually went with a bitumen/asphalt roof though).


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## Gingerdawg (Nov 14, 2007)

minh said:


> when i had a flat-section-roof replaced on my house one of the roofers recommended that EPDM stuff and basically said "it's like the inner tube on a bicycle tire".


By that he meant " it leaks frequently"


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

So whats the general thoughts on WSS V1 and WSS V2 and which works best?

Is there an advantage to not using antifreeze? Seems like V1 would be cheaper? Well in Oz it would be since Slime costs about $20 for 16 oz, whereas EG is much cheaper.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Version 2 is better. The antifreeze tends to weep on some tires.


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

And does it last as long in warmer climates?


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

> Version 2 is better. The antifreeze tends to weep on some tires.


Wouldn't there be anti freeze in the slime?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

There is probably something- maybe antifreeze in the slime to keep it from freezing. The difference between adding antifreeze and not is that you can actually get so much weepage with the antifreeze with some tires that you get a little green pool of clear antifreeze on the floor under the tire after a day or so. With just the slime, you might see a few pin sized green spots that are mostly sealed up. Also, antifreeze doesn't have much vapor pressure and sealant works because of the evaporation of the liquid parts leaving the latex in the hole. Antifreeze in my opinion tends to make the sealant work slower because of its lack of vapor pressure. So in my opinion adding antifreeze is a bad idea for both reasons unless you generally ride a lot at temperatures below say 25 F.

I change my sealant every 6 months so I can't comment on life in warmer climates, but version 2 does last 6 months in Southern Indiana.


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

I'm no expert, so this is more question than comment - I thought anti freeze was also anti boil, so just a temperature stabiliser for either extreme.

I'm hoping that it will prolong the life af sealant in warmer climates as much as in cooler ones.

Anyone got an idea on that?

I have just soursed the little rubber specs in slime, so my next batch will be slime free. I also soursed food grade propelene glycol, which is supposed to be a little denser ansd I'm hoping it will weep less.

I'd like to leave out the glycol, but to the best of my knowledge a the moment, it wil help the lifespan of the sealant if I add it. So my new recipie will be latex, water, glycol and specs.

As I say, I'd like to leave out the glycol, but at this stage feel I need it, even in a warmer climate. So I have gone for the best I can find.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

MagicCarpet said:


> I'm no expert, so this is more question than comment - I thought anti freeze was also anti boil, so just a temperature stabiliser for either extreme.
> 
> I'm hoping that it will prolong the life af sealant in warmer climates as much as in cooler ones.
> 
> ...


Hi MC!
Well I'm certainly no expert either, but I reckon you might be onto something. After reading youdaguy's recent post I'm not 100% we even need the glycol ingredient here, especially for hot Queensland climate. So, in the interests of science I say why not give your (glycol-free) latex + water + specks recipe a shot, then let us know how you get on!

BTW, this is pure guesswork here, but I've occasionally wondered if maybe the glycol component helps stabilize the latex, and helps prevent "boogers" forming inside the tyre? In any case, I expect we'll find out the answer soon enough if you try your new recipe! So good luck!


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

Not sure how relevant it is, but last summer my mix of 1:1 stans:slime dried out very quickly, less than 4 weeks. And had already formed a big 'snottie'

From reading through this thread, I'd got the impression that glycol stopped the latex from drying out too quickly.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

The Antifreeze/glycol is in the mix because of its very low evaporation rate (look up the "vapor pressure" - this is what drives molecules out of the liquid as vapor), as well as keeping the mix from freezing. At high temperatures, it's more about the heat capacity and chemical stability at temperature of the fluid - which doesn't play here.

This made me look it up, and found:
Vapor pressure of water= .33 psi
Vapor pressure of Ethylene Glycol = .073 psi
Vapor pressure of Propylene Glycol = .0025 psi

So EG has about 1/4 the vapor pressure of water, but PG is 1/125 of water. Another mark in favor of PG over EG. Slime is Propylene Glycol (non-tox AF) with fibers and chunks and maybe some secret herbs and spices. 

WSS V2 gets you twice as many fibers&chunks, and a little less AF (and it's PG, not EG). Experiments I did with adding dryer lint showed me how just a little fiber thickens up the mix. I think that the extra fibers&chunks hold the AF like a sponge, keeping it from weeping as bad. When you get a puncture, there are also more plugs to fill the hole - keeping that from weeping too.

IMHO. YMMV.


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

G'day Hootsmon, Barney, Wadester,

I will stick with the glycol because it's the same stuff people use to stop freezing and boiling alike.......and because of that top explanation from Wade.

The main decision for me now is the ratio of the ingredients, most importantly the water/glycol mix. At this point I'm thinking 25% glycol as the WSS1 mix was 33% but i am using food grade PE. This makes me think I can reduce the amount of glycol, but I may well be wrong.

Does anyone have a view on the water/PE ratio?


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

Ok a couple of questions

What sort of latex do you use? Brush on or spray on? Seems like brush on is pre thickened.

And a question for the Aussies:

Are you all using supercheap liquid patch in place of slime?
I have a both at home (the slime is the one for UST tires), and the liquid patch is noticably runnier than the slime, so I'm guessing that it isn't the same product.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

MagicCarpet said:


> The main decision for me now is the ratio of the ingredients, most importantly the water/glycol mix. At this point I'm thinking 25% glycol as the WSS1 mix was 33% but i am using food grade PE. This makes me think I can reduce the amount of glycol, but I may well be wrong. Does anyone have a view on the water/PE ratio?


Hi MC. Basically I think you're on the on the right track. I believe the propylene glycol that we're both using is more-or-less pure PG. So it does need to be diluted quite a lot before adding the latex, otherwise the latex tends to form a ball instantly. To sum up, your 25% glycol idea should work just fine.

FWIW, I think that WSS V2 is pretty mature and well tested. So although I sometimes tinker with the recipe a little, I still try to keep the same basic proportions, while substituting a few locally available ingredients. Hope that helps


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

xcbarny said:


> What sort of latex do you use? Brush on or spray on? Seems like brush on is pre thickened.


As a bit of background info, the term 'mold-builder' is virtually unknown down here in Oz. ;-) However, rubber-latex solution appears to be exactly the same goop, and that's not hard to find online, in craft-supplies shops, as well as wholesale (nice find, MC!) And yes, I'm guessing the brush-on stuff is what you want. It's typically sold by the pail, and it has a fairly thick consistency, something like mayonnaise.



xcbarny said:


> Are you all using supercheap liquid patch in place of slime?
> I have a both at home (the slime is the one for UST tires), and the liquid patch is noticably runnier than the slime, so I'm guessing that it isn't the same product.


Exactly. And so far it's worked just fine for me, insofar as it contains mostly water, latex, PG, fibre and chunk (but that's pure guesswork). But having said that, my next brew will omit the slime, while substituting MC's rubber chunks + latex + glycol instead. :thumbsup:


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

Would be good to find a cheap supply of Latex, most places I've found are about $30 litre.
I just ordered 1/2 litre for about $20 off ebay, just to give it a try.

Eliminating slime would make the mix super cheap !!


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

Hey Barney, oops it just dawned on me that you're in Brissie as well.



xcbarny said:


> Would be good to find a cheap supply of Latex, most places I've found are about $30 litre. I just ordered 1/2 litre for about $20 off ebay, just to give it a try.


That's funny, cos MagicCarpet recently found a bulk supplier, so we just split a 4lt tub. So I've got a more than I can use right now, and of course you'd be most welcome to some.



xcbarny said:


> Eliminating slime would make the mix super cheap !!


Well that's possibly true, at least in theory. But I'm thinking _maybe_ it's not quite that simple...

My LBS sells Stan's goop for AUD$78 per quart! Holy cow!!! 
So on that basis, any homebrew sealant looks astonishingly cheap, even with Slime.
Also, two of Wadesters posts have kinda hinted that maybe there's some secret-sauce ingredient in Slime that's beneficial, but not otherwise found in WSS. I might have read that bit wrong though.
But aside from that I'm agreeing with you, so it's definitely worth trying.


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## sstrawsb (Sep 16, 2009)

Well I had a 50% success. The front wheel sealed up well and seems to be holding air perfectly. The rear on the other hand will not seal. It as a slow leak somewhere around the edge. Im using 1part latex, 2 part slime, 2part water. Im tired of messing with it. 

Im not sure why its leaking. Has anyone ever put the sealant on the outside around the bead? Im just trying to figure out a way to fix it without having to unmount the tire and do it all over. It is a Maxxis XM321 wheel with a Kendra tire with a kevlar bead. Not sure if the kevlar bead makes a difference or not.


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

sstrawsb said:


> Well I had a 50% success. The front wheel sealed up well and seems to be holding air perfectly. The rear on the other hand will not seal. It as a slow leak somewhere around the edge. Im using 1part latex, 2 part slime, 2part water. Im tired of messing with it.
> 
> Im not sure why its leaking. Has anyone ever put the sealant on the outside around the bead? Im just trying to figure out a way to fix it without having to unmount the tire and do it all over. It is a Maxxis XM321 wheel with a Kendra tire with a kevlar bead. Not sure if the kevlar bead makes a difference or not.


Spray soapy water around the bead to find out where it's leaking. Then shake the stuff down in that area. All goes well and it'll seal right up for you.


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## Dag Nabbit (May 27, 2009)

sstrawsb said:


> Well I had a 50% success. The front wheel sealed up well and seems to be holding air perfectly. The rear on the other hand will not seal. It as a slow leak somewhere around the edge. Im using 1part latex, 2 part slime, 2part water. Im tired of messing with it.
> 
> Im not sure why its leaking. Has anyone ever put the sealant on the outside around the bead? Im just trying to figure out a way to fix it without having to unmount the tire and do it all over. It is a Maxxis XM321 wheel with a Kendra tire with a kevlar bead. Not sure if the kevlar bead makes a difference or not.


Soap is a very good idea to get it to pop on the rim, but I don't think that is your problem. I've hit the bead with my homebrew and that gets it to pop, but I only did that because I was too lazy to clean the bead from a previous setup, and soapy water wasnt' cutting it.

I have had, however, what may be the same problem you are having. My rear tire leaked as well and wouldn't seal and I found out why after a close inspection. I discovered that it was leaking where the seam for the rim was located. The rim had ever so slightly split apart at the seam and the tire had no chance to seal. All I did was put some Gorilla tape along the rim on both sides of the rim splice (hit both sides! I only got the side that was leaking and the other side acted up on me - had to pop the tire off again) and boom! no more leaking. Give it a go and good luck. Don't give up! Homebrew tubeless is an accomplishment I'm rather proud of. :thumbsup:


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## sstrawsb (Sep 16, 2009)

Dag Nabbit said:


> Soap is a very good idea to get it to pop on the rim, but I don't think that is your problem. I've hit the bead with my homebrew and that gets it to pop, but I only did that because I was too lazy to clean the bead from a previous setup, and soapy water wasnt' cutting it.
> 
> I have had, however, what may be the same problem you are having. My rear tire leaked as well and wouldn't seal and I found out why after a close inspection. I discovered that it was leaking where the seam for the rim was located. The rim had ever so slightly split apart at the seam and the tire had no chance to seal. All I did was put some Gorilla tape along the rim on both sides of the rim splice (hit both sides! I only got the side that was leaking and the other side acted up on me - had to pop the tire off again) and boom! no more leaking. Give it a go and good luck. Don't give up! Homebrew tubeless is an accomplishment I'm rather proud of. :thumbsup:


Thanks! By rim splice you mean the edge, im assuming? I think that is my problem. Its just ever so slightly leaking out. If i let all the air out of the tire its obvious it has a good seal because the bead doesnt want to budge. Just a small leak somewhere.


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

BTW - my recommendation for soapy water is to find the leak. Just spray it around, and watch. Even the smallest leak will bubble. Then you know the culprit. Check around the bead seal, valve and sidewalls.



sstrawsb said:


> Thanks! By rim splice you mean the edge, im assuming? I think that is my problem. Its just ever so slightly leaking out. If i let all the air out of the tire its obvious it has a good seal because the bead doesnt want to budge. Just a small leak somewhere.


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## sstrawsb (Sep 16, 2009)

craigshaf said:


> BTW - my recommendation for soapy water is to find the leak. Just spray it around, and watch. Even the smallest leak will bubble. Then you know the culprit. Check around the bead seal, valve and sidewalls.


10-4. Soapy water did the trick to find the leak. I tossed the wheel on the bike again and spun it to hell and back. I think that helped distribute the secret sauce since I started to see some green being pushed out the bead.


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## Dag Nabbit (May 27, 2009)

sstrawsb said:


> Thanks! By rim splice you mean the edge, im assuming? I think that is my problem. Its just ever so slightly leaking out. If i let all the air out of the tire its obvious it has a good seal because the bead doesnt want to budge. Just a small leak somewhere.


The splice is perpendicular to the rim edge. Imagine your rim unrolled and laid out flat, so that it is only a linear piece of aluminum. When they make the rim, they'll just take the two ends and make a circle out of it. That is where the seam is and it'll run through the entirety of the rim. I made sure that the tape I put in across the seam also overlapped the tape I laid in the center of the rim, so that the whole seam is covered.

Before i made the fix, my tires would hold for about a day or two. It was a pretty slow leak but that sure took care of it. And yeah, I found it with some soap. :thumbsup:

Another sly culprit could be the valve stem, as mentioned by craigshaf. I use cut-out stems from old tubes and the rubber always seem to separate from the valve after a few months, or if I tighten it too much. :madmax: These leaks can be pretty slow as well. Take it out and look at it, and if the rubber is starting to peel from the valve stem, save yourself the headache and cut up a new ghetto stem. Hope it works for ya!


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

red5jedi said:


> When I was at Hobby Lobby picking up some liquid latex I noticed this bag of grass. One bag was leaking this stuff all over the place. It's used for model building for like trains and such. It's about the same size of Stan's clogging agent and it feels like some sort of rubber or latex - perfect! So this is what I've got going as of yesterday.
> 
> 4 - RV antifreeze
> 4 - Water
> ...


 I used this mix today and the consistency looks great, so thanks red5jedi. Also this is the first time I have used Bontrager TLR rim strips and wonder why it is not more popular? I tried Stans and ghetto in the past with decent results, but these TLR strips are way too easy! My combination included mounting a Hutchinson Toro front and Python rear on Ritchey Rock Pro rims.


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## sstrawsb (Sep 16, 2009)

Dag Nabbit said:


> Before i made the fix, my tires would hold for about a day or two. It was a pretty slow leak but that sure took care of it. And yeah, I found it with some soap. :thumbsup:
> 
> Another sly culprit could be the valve stem, as mentioned by craigshaf. I use cut-out stems from old tubes and the rubber always seem to separate from the valve after a few months, or if I tighten it too much. :madmax: These leaks can be pretty slow as well. Take it out and look at it, and if the rubber is starting to peel from the valve stem, save yourself the headache and cut up a new ghetto stem. Hope it works for ya!


So I am going to try to do this again today. Did you use the cut tube as well as the gorilla tape? Im debating on trying it without the cut tube and just using gorilla tape as seen in this video:Gorilla Tape tubeless

Although he uses a prestra valve where I have a schrader from the 20" tubes. Would this cause a problem? It seems I just have multiple slow leaks around the whole bead of the wheel. Not a ton but about 2-3 per wheel. When I get the wheel inflated with 60+ psi of air i get some sealant bubbles from a couple spots right where the wheel meets the rim. I thought the front sealed wheel but after a full night it was flat. It seems like my mixture is ok because after I came back to the wheel a day or two later I had to peel the bead from the rim because they sealant had sealed it up.


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## honkonbobo (Nov 18, 2006)

sstrawsb said:


> So I am going to try to do this again today. Did you use the cut tube as well as the gorilla tape? Im debating on trying it without the cut tube and just using gorilla tape as seen in this video:Gorilla Tape tubeless
> 
> Although he uses a prestra valve where I have a schrader from the 20" tubes. Would this cause a problem?


i have set up a handful of wheels with just gorilla tape and wadesters recipe and it can be difficult to get the seal around the valve stem. my opinion FWIW is that you need the nut on the presta valve to be able to pull the valve down into the rim enough to get a seal.

when a few of mine didnt want to seal i cut a washer out of old tube and stuck it in there and tightened the nut down to compress the rubber washer to seal. worked like a charm. i just dont see how you are gonna get that seal with a schrader.

cheers.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

sstrawsb said:


> So I am going to try to do this again today. Did you use the cut tube as well as the gorilla tape? Im debating on trying it without the cut tube and just using gorilla tape as seen in this video:Gorilla Tape tubeless
> 
> Although he uses a prestra valve where I have a schrader from the 20" tubes. Would this cause a problem? It seems I just have multiple slow leaks around the whole bead of the wheel. Not a ton but about 2-3 per wheel. When I get the wheel inflated with 60+ psi of air i get some sealant bubbles from a couple spots right where the wheel meets the rim. I thought the front sealed wheel but after a full night it was flat. It seems like my mixture is ok because after I came back to the wheel a day or two later I had to peel the bead from the rim because they sealant had sealed it up.


I just used the 1" gorilla tape and it worked fine. You can tear the big full in half if thats all you have. I didn't however put more tape over the valve like he did in the video. As far as using the scrader valve from another tube instead, I would wonder how you jeep It from falling out. Does it have a nut like the prestas? I know you can get them that do, but I think they are tubeless specific. Youmay just want to use the 20" tube.
I had lots of bubbles from both the spoke holes and where the rim meets the tire too. If you go to the stanswebsite there is a good video about how to shake the tire and place it horizontally on a bucket to get a good initial seal. Don't give up. Once you get it its a graet sysytem.


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## sstrawsb (Sep 16, 2009)

honkonbobo said:


> i have set up a handful of wheels with just gorilla tape and wadesters recipe and it can be difficult to get the seal around the valve stem. my opinion FWIW is that you need the nut on the presta valve to be able to pull the valve down into the rim enough to get a seal.
> 
> when a few of mine didnt want to seal i cut a washer out of old tube and stuck it in there and tightened the nut down to compress the rubber washer to seal. worked like a charm. i just dont see how you are gonna get that seal with a schrader.
> 
> cheers.


Hum.. Well now I am just lost. Not sure what I should do to get these things to seal. I also noticed I havent gotten a noticeable "pop" or distinct sound of the bead seating. I mean the tire does inflate but maybe its not getting 100% seated?


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## honkonbobo (Nov 18, 2006)

sstrawsb said:


> Hum.. Well now I am just lost. Not sure what I should do to get these things to seal. I also noticed I havent gotten a noticeable "pop" or distinct sound of the bead seating. I mean the tire does inflate but maybe its not getting 100% seated?


dont overthink it... if you follow the instructions in the video you will be fine. wrap the gorilla tape tightly around the rim, cut a small x hole in the valve hole and put a presta valve stem cut from an old tube in there (or a tubeless ready stem). put your tire on and give it a shot of air (preferrably with an air compressor). once that seems to seal or at least appear to then pop one side and dump some sealant in. then hit it with air again and start doing the shake and soap routine in the stans videos.

there are definitely some tricks once you do it a few times but common sense will get you 90% of the way the first time. if you get the tape and valve in right you can try and retry with the tire without messing things up too much.


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## sstrawsb (Sep 16, 2009)

Well I might have gotten it. I decided to redo the whole process. I took the wheels off and washed them out and got them clean. I also redid one of the rim straps since the old one had moved and had creases in it. Seated the ghetto rim strap evenly on the wheel and got it nice and soapy. Mounted the tire , removed valve core and inflated it. Got a decent seal so I deflated it and added the secret sauce. I reinstalled the valve core and inflated the wheel again. Got tons of foam and started the shake the wheel in each spot that was foaming. 

It was pretty weird to hear the leaks then all the sudden they stopped. Got both tires to stop leaking and now im just waiting. I did have a small problem when I went to inflate the tire the first time. My compressor is set to stop at 65psi. Well I have been gone and either I turned it up and forgot or someone used it while I was gone. (most likely #1) Well I started to inflate the first wheel and after about 5-10 seconds.......BOOM! I blew the damn tire right off the wheel. Not only did it blow the tire off but also made me deaf for about 20 seconds and took a good hit on my right hand. Its about an hour later and its still throbbing and my pinky finger is pretty swollen still. Also have a weird blood blister under the skin. Freaked me out pretty good. I had no clue till after that the compressor was holding about 150 psi of air. 

The tire had no damage, it just popped off the wheel somehow. I thought for sure I blew the tire to pieces and thats what hit my hand. Who knows.. I will definitely be checking the compressor to make sure the pressure is correct from now on.


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## Dag Nabbit (May 27, 2009)

sstrawsb said:


> Well I might have gotten it.... I had no clue till after that the compressor was holding about 150 psi of air.


Ouch. That's a lot of pressure! I don't pump mine over 40 psi, and I think even 60 is a little high. Yeah, I used the Gorilla tape method and a valve cut out of an old tube. I'm not a fan of the 20" tube because if you get a flat, you've got to disassemble your whole system, whereas with the tape, you just pop the stem out and put in a new tube. If you do the tape, you'll need a presta for sure so you can tighten the stem. I hardly ever hear a pop when I get my tire on, it just kinda fills up. But every now and then I'll hear it. If you don't hear it, it doesn't mean that its not working.

Sounds like you're pretty close, just keep the psi a little lower! Check them regularly for the first few days and put air in when needed. Btw, my compressor is at 110 psi, I just don't fill the tire to an equal pressure! Hit it for a few seconds and you'll be close to 40.

I also put the sauce in right away, spin the tire to get it distributed, then soap it up and hit it with air. I'm not sure of the advantage of setting the tire, popping it and then putting in sauce in is, but there must be some logic there, I've just yet to have the need to walk that path and find it.

Hope the hand heals up well!


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## sstrawsb (Sep 16, 2009)

Dag Nabbit said:


> Ouch. That's a lot of pressure! I don't pump mine over 40 psi, and I think even 60 is a little high. Yeah, I used the Gorilla tape method and a valve cut out of an old tube. I'm not a fan of the 20" tube because if you get a flat, you've got to disassemble your whole system, whereas with the tape, you just pop the stem out and put in a new tube. If you do the tape, you'll need a presta for sure so you can tighten the stem. I hardly ever hear a pop when I get my tire on, it just kinda fills up. But every now and then I'll hear it. If you don't hear it, it doesn't mean that its not working.
> 
> Sounds like you're pretty close, just keep the psi a little lower! Check them regularly for the first few days and put air in when needed. Btw, my compressor is at 110 psi, I just don't fill the tire to an equal pressure! Hit it for a few seconds and you'll be close to 40.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Trust me I had no intention to put that much pressure in there. I think I have gotten them both sealed up. I just ran out for about an hour and got back and both seem to be holding air. I guess the real test is overnight and the next few days. Thanks again!


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

Dag Nabbit said:


> Ouch. That's a lot of pressure! I don't pump mine over 40 psi, and I think even 60 is a little high. Yeah, I used the Gorilla tape method and a valve cut out of an old tube. I'm not a fan of the 20" tube because if you get a flat, you've got to disassemble your whole system...


I'm a gorilla tape guy, I don't understand why with the 20" tube you would need to disassemble the whole system. Can't you just pop a bead, put in more WSS and be off? I even figure If you have a schrader, you can just pull the core and fill. No need to break a bead.


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## Dag Nabbit (May 27, 2009)

ajmelin said:


> I'm a gorilla tape guy, I don't understand why with the 20" tube you would need to disassemble the whole system. Can't you just pop a bead, put in more WSS and be off? I even figure If you have a schrader, you can just pull the core and fill. No need to break a bead.


Well, I was thinking about putting a tube in as the repair. I sure wasn't thinking about trying to get the tubeless up and running again on the trail. When I blow a tire off, I don't bother and just put a tube in. I don't think I'd be able to get the tire to set a gain with my little bike pump. I suppose one could hit it with CO2, but I've never carried that. In that case, no disassemble! You're right on that one.

However, if you wanted to put a tube in after a 20" split tube, tubeless setup, then you'd have to take the 20 incher out to put the new tube in; however, with the G. Tape (what I use as well) I just pull the stem and the tape gets to stay! That's what I was thinking, anyway.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

Dag Nabbit said:


> Well, I was thinking about putting a tube in as the repair. I sure wasn't thinking about trying to get the tubeless up and running again on the trail. When I blow a tire off, I don't bother and just put a tube in. I don't think I'd be able to get the tire to set a gain with my little bike pump. I suppose one could hit it with CO2, but I've never carried that. In that case, no disassemble! You're right on that one.
> 
> However, if you wanted to put a tube in after a 20" split tube, tubeless setup, then you'd have to take the 20 incher out to put the new tube in; however, with the G. Tape (what I use as well) I just pull the stem and the tape gets to stay! That's what I was thinking, anyway.


Right!
It never occurred to me about trail repair. I was thinking only about matinence/repair at home. I can see what you mean about a 20" tube being a PITA on the trail.


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

sstrawsb said:


> Well I started to inflate the first wheel and after about 5-10 seconds.......BOOM! I blew the damn tire right off the wheel.


What tire and rim are you using? It seems like it might be too loose of a fit if you are having a bunch of foam or having trouble getting them to seal. The Hutchinson tires I mounted this past week were so tight fitting that I almost broke the tire levers getting them on. The slightest touch of air, maybe 10-15 psi had them seated and popping into place with soapy spray.


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## honkonbobo (Nov 18, 2006)

Dag Nabbit said:


> I also put the sauce in right away, spin the tire to get it distributed, then soap it up and hit it with air. I'm not sure of the advantage of setting the tire, popping it and then putting in sauce in is, but there must be some logic there, I've just yet to have the need to walk that path and find it.


there is definitely more than one right answer but my logic to air up the tire first and then pop one side off to dump in the sauce is i find it easier to be sure it is going to air up with the sauce in. i have had situations where i had to fight with the tire to get it to air up initially and with the sauce in i ended up with mess all over the place.


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## Dag Nabbit (May 27, 2009)

honkonbobo said:


> there is definitely more than one right answer but my logic to air up the tire first and then pop one side off to dump in the sauce is i find it easier to be sure it is going to air up with the sauce in. i have had situations where i had to fight with the tire to get it to air up initially and with the sauce in i ended up with mess all over the place.


And there it is, cleanliness. I applaud your effort! I resigned myself to the fact that the whole process is a mess and work with a hose right next to me. Heck, some times I'll even spooge goop along the whole bead on both sides to get a tire to set, which works really well with tires that have latex all over the bead. (When I'm too lazy to clean it off.) This almost always gets a tire on, and quickly. But is sure is messy. I guess that's the advantage of the homebrew, got some extra to throw around!


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

Slopping sauce around the bead worked for me too. I had a set of tires that were so loose that I had to use two belts racheted down tight, with sauce slopped all over them to get them to seat with a compressor. when it dried out and I had to refresh, I tried to just pop a bead, but no luck. I had to get out the belts again.


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

honkonbobo said:


> there is definitely more than one right answer but my logic to air up the tire first and then pop one side off to dump in the sauce is i find it easier to be sure it is going to air up with the sauce in. i have had situations where i had to fight with the tire to get it to air up initially and with the sauce in i ended up with mess all over the place.


The Stans injector is great for this.
You can seat the tires, then remove you valve core (if you didn't already do this when seating the tires). 
Then use the injector to pump in the desired quantity of goop. 
Replace the core and air up the tires.

I did this last week, and had no mess whatsoever. :thumbsup:

Just have to clean the injector after use.


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## honkonbobo (Nov 18, 2006)

xcbarny said:


> The Stans injector is great for this.
> You can seat the tires, then remove you valve core (if you didn't already do this when seating the tires).
> Then use the injector to pump in the desired quantity of goop.
> Replace the core and air up the tires.
> ...


totally agree.

but with stems cut from old tubes its free and i think i have the routine down. the last wheels i set up with gorilla tape and WSS probably took 20mins start to finish with only a little shaking now and then after that.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

honkonbobo said:


> totally agree.
> 
> but with stems cut from old tubes its free and i think i have the routine down. the last wheels i set up with gorilla tape and WSS probably took 20mins start to finish with only a little shaking now and then after that.


put a pair of Mavic tubeless stems on your Christmas list... never know, you know?


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## cjaghblb (Jun 21, 2010)

To add to dealing with the mess that setting the bead on a tubeless tire, I discovered that using my truing stand completely eliminated the mess. I mount the tire to the point that I have just enough of an opening to add my stans, mount it in the stand and add the stans. I then spin the tire 180 and use my levers to complete the mount. Spin the tire in the stand to spread the sealant around and before I hit it with air, I grip the tire with both hands with my thumbs next to each other on the tread and my fingers digging into the sidewalls on each side and just push in at my thumbs while pulling with my fingers to help pop the bead onto the sealing surface. I do this every couple of inches for one complete revolution on the tire, takes maybe 30 seconds to complete and then I air it up. No mess and an instant seal. 

Disclaimer: I do XC mostly so I run Specialized Captains for the most part. I wonder how easy this would be with the bigger/thicker DH types.


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## wycough (Mar 9, 2008)

I mounted this bike up tubeless today. It's my kids trail bike. 20 x 1 3/8" tires. I used a 16 x 1 presta tube for the ghetto setup with Stans. Sealed right up. Bikes a little heavy @ 16lbs compared to his race bike, but this cut down on rotational weight and more importantly gave us flat protection which really isnt available in a light weight version for this size.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

There is a fairly good youtube vid on gorrilla tubeless but only part 1. The part I'm interested in is how to attach the valve stem. That is in the lost part 2... I guess.

The part 2 listed is not actually the continuation of this vid.






Although from the direction this guy is going he only takes into account sealing the spoke holes. One key part of the Stans system is the strip that takes up space between the tire bead and the rim and makes for a good seal. I've had good luck with this in everything from non UST 700c cyclocross tires to non UST 2.7" fatties on 36mm DH rims. So what do you do about this in the getto version?

Also is all this talk about making your own sealant just to save the money over buying Stan's? Or does it work better. I find that where I live I need to add sealant about once a year unless I've gotten a lot of puctures. Not too expensive.

My local shop has switched to Caffelatex which is even more expensive and I've seen some documentation that it doesn't work very well at all sometimes. Can't even seal a porous sidewall.

I have had some trouble lately with small rock cuts in the tread area not wanting to seal up with Stan's however. I guess glitter might help. At least that is what people say. How much glitter do you add to a scoop? Stan says that it will cut down on the life of the sealant, so I don't want to put it into a bottle that might not be used up for a couple of years.

Btw the sealing problems of late were with a freshly opened bottle and new wheels/tires.

I've been using Stan's since tubeless rims/tires came on the market with good results.. until now. Maybe I just had some bad luck.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

the main reason for this is that Stans dries out in some locals.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

modifier said:


> There is a fairly good youtube vid on gorrilla tubeless but only part 1. The part I'm interested in is how to attach the valve stem. That is in the lost part 2... I guess.
> 
> The part 2 listed is not actually the continuation of this vid.
> 
> ...


Skip the glitter, it will just give you bigger boogers. Try adding automotive Slime. The WSS homebrew is certainly cheaper, $.50 vs what, $3.00 per 2 oz dose? It also lasts longer in arid climates and doesn't form boogers. I get a whole riding season in most tires I use. Seals quickly. I had a sidewall cut that would hold 40 psi overnight, then go down within 15 minutes when I would start riding. Finally discovered an 1/8"- 1/4" sidewall cut that would open slightly when it rotated through the bulge area. I was amazed when I discovered it, the sealant works that well. The antifreeze may weep a bit from some tires, but isn't real noticeable if you ride them regularly. I have observed this in the form of small wet looking spots on sidewalls but they disappear on a ride, probably get scrubbed off. In any case, it works well.


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## Lafawnduh (Nov 1, 2005)

I was thinking about making up some sealant but didn't want the headache. I just got some stans rim strips and stans sealant. Works awesome.

For those that like messing with making your own sealant this link my be helpful.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7055569/description.html


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

FYI...
I didn't go to the trouble of digging up my old post, but I mixed up version 1 with 1/2 part extra slime (of the auto variety), and set up my Michelin XC 2.0 tires in March of this year. This week (November 10) I have started to see the first pressure loss in one of the two tires. Seriously, I haven't touched them. I have added maybe 5 pounds of pressure every 3-4 weeks throughout the year...less than I ever did with tubes. Now the front is losing maybe 10psi every 5 days. That's 8 months of zero maintenance from temps in the low teens to triple digits. Now I have to actually squeeze the front tire and maybe add a little air before a ride. That's extreme high maintenance compared to the past 8 months. It's been beautiful. Version 1, 1/2 part extra slime. The extra slime probably did nothing, but I just couldn't leave well enough alone. Either way, I'm sold.


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

Fuel for thought, Mica and Bentonite.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Like your style CommuterBoy. I work at home and go on rides from there. Glad to know that it lasts 8 months. I redo all my wheels every 6 months because I don't want to get to the point (which I got to in the past) where the sealant doesn't seal a puncture. I have found that without adding extra slime it lasts 6 months and I generally do seem to feel that extra slime makes a better mixture and probably add a little extra.

While on that note though, I think Slime is a little more likely to weep out of little holes in the sidewall than the other ingredients. This does not seem to cause air loss (or much air loss) but the more slime or antifreeze in the mixture the more little green dots you tend to see.


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## bchrismer (Sep 28, 2010)

has any of you Texicans tried the purple goo mentioned a few pages back? I saw a mention, but haven't seen any other posts about it. From their web site, it appears that it's mainly distributed in Texas.

And...regarding schrader valve removal, I bought some of these, years ago.










I think I got mine at the auto parts store. Handy tool with convenient storage!

Gathering the supplies to go. Planning on using the "pipe wrap" tape method, but have had a devil of a time finding pipe wrap. None of the retail stores, including the hardware chains stock it, and the two plumbing supply houses wanted $18 and $21 per 2"/100' 10mil roll. Wound up finally talking to a buddy that works for one of the hardware chains and he ordered up a roll of Harvey's for me. Apparently plumbers in my area don't bury steel gas lines.

Did anyone find a good source on the threaded shrader valves? I had seen the picture with the 3 of them, and if I could snag a supply of the ones on the left side of the pic, I would be a happy camper.

Thx


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

wycough said:


> I mounted this bike up tubeless today. It's my kids trail bike. 20 x 1 3/8" tires. I used a 16 x 1 presta tube for the ghetto setup with Stans. Sealed right up. Bikes a little heavy @ 16lbs compared to his race bike, but this cut down on rotational weight and more importantly gave us flat protection which really isnt available in a light weight version for this size.


Dude! those cranks are waaay too long for a kid. Save your kids knees and buy some kid length cranks.


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

Hey guys, I was getting ready to post my latest failure experience when I noticed you talking about best ways to fill tires. I appologize if this method has already been posted but I use a turkey injector method. No need to keep buying the PITA removable core prestas, or screw with valves period. Here's what I do:

On existing tires instead of guessing what the status is of the sealant, I use a small poker tool (probably about a 4 penny nail diameter) to puncture the tire. I pull the poker out, air come out, I spin the tire. If it seals sealant it's fine, if it doesn't I need to add sealant. Now I'll take the tool and stick it back in the afore mention hole. I fill a 1oz turkey marinate injector with sealant, pull the poker out, stick the needle in the hole, inject the fluid & repeat to required sealant needed.

-- One note - deflate the tire down to no more than 10psi before attempting to inject. :thumbsup:



xcbarny said:


> The Stans injector is great for this.
> You can seat the tires, then remove you valve core (if you didn't already do this when seating the tires).
> Then use the injector to pump in the desired quantity of goop.
> Replace the core and air up the tires.
> ...


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

*Failure log - Schwabe Big Apple 26x2.35*

Note: This post is in NO way suggesting tubless conversions as anything but a superior tire option. I'm merely logging a failure for data gathering purposes.

Tire is a Big Apple 26x2.35 mounted to an Azonic Outlaw downhill rim, ghetto (tube) setup. This is the second BA 2.35 that I've mounted on this rim. The 1st set of tires lasted more than 5,000 miles with never an issue (and this is on a Big Dummy cargo bike so I was pretty impressed). The failure tire had a little over 2K miles on it. I started loading my bike one morning and noticed sealant splattered all over my garage wall. I lifted up the bags and saw that my tire had obviously blown overnight (no load other than the bike was left on the tire).

I checked the tire over, everything looked good but it was very loose on the rim (these tires have always mounted beautifully). I went ahead and built up the center of the rim (4 wraps with tape), replaced the rim strip, and tried to no avail to remount the tire.

Best I can theorize, fibers on the bead were faulty (or possibly crushed by a tire lever) one side's bead fabric failed, thus breaking the opposite side fabric in the same spot. This fabric rip then allowed enough tension release that the tire's inside diameter increased significantly. Let me know what's your theory.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Just getting ready to use my forced time off the bike to make it tubeless. This thread is LONG so I thought I'd summarize the mixes that I had bookmarked for everyone...



wadester said:


> Since 5/04 I been running:
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 1 part Slime tubeless
> 1 part cheap antifreeze
> ...





wadester said:


> No change to the basic WSS recipe. Good practice finds that you do not add the antifreeze directly to the latex, since that seems to cause coagulation. My bet is slime/one water, mix well. Latex, mix well. then antifreeze/other water. I mix in a jug that just barely fits my quantity, so mixing the last bit is difficult.





wadester said:


> I also tried 2 new recipes - latex/slime/water (3 parts) and latex/2 slime/2 water (modified 5 part). No antifreeze added, just what's in the slime. 3 part is too thick, I think. Modified 5 part (M5) is very similar to the old 5 part mix with alginate thickener (T5?).
> 
> Haven't had the chance to field test the M5 blend in a tire yet - still no issues with thickened old style. That's the problem with improving this stuff - takes a long time for any data points. Actually, I do have one note on T5 - doesn't seem to lose pressure over time as much. Less top off of pressure after sitting a week.


It seems 1 part latex | 2 part tubeless slime | 2 part water is something of a "current" brew so I'll be trying it. Hopefully my WTB tires won't have any issues :thumbsup:


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## SuperJETT (May 28, 2008)

I run WTB Exiwolf tubeless with the 1/2/2 mix and no issues at all. Go for it, it doesn't take that long.


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## fafaafooie (Mar 25, 2004)

CPATCRASH said:


> A year? Wow! Now find me a tire that last's a year!


+ 1,000,000 !!!


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## cncwhiz (Sep 8, 2010)

I am thinking about doing a tubeless setup and I have never tried it before. I have mavic 719 rims and three different tires. I have some WTB Exiwolf 2.3's with steel beads, some Geax Seguaro folding beads, and one kenda small block 8 folding bead. 

I have seen "UST" mentioned a bunch, but I don't know what it means. Can anybody tell me if one of the tires I have listed will work for a ghetto setup and if my rims are compatible? 

Thanks


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## Dag Nabbit (May 27, 2009)

cncwhiz said:


> I am thinking about doing a tubeless setup and I have never tried it before. I have mavic 719 rims and three different tires. I have some WTB Exiwolf 2.3's with steel beads, some Geax Seguaro folding beads, and one kenda small block 8 folding bead.
> 
> I have seen "UST" mentioned a bunch, but I don't know what it means. Can anybody tell me if one of the tires I have listed will work for a ghetto setup and if my rims are compatible?
> 
> Thanks


I put my 29" Exiwolfs on cheapy Alex rims and they work fine. Put Panaracer Fires on a mavic rim and they worked fine too. UST is some sort of tubelss standard, no ghetto-ing required, as I understand anyway. I've never seen or used them.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

cncwhiz said:


> I am thinking about doing a tubeless setup and I have never tried it before. I have mavic 719 rims and three different tires. I have some WTB Exiwolf 2.3's with steel beads, some Geax Seguaro folding beads, and one kenda small block 8 folding bead.
> 
> I have seen "UST" mentioned a bunch, but I don't know what it means. Can anybody tell me if one of the tires I have listed will work for a ghetto setup and if my rims are compatible?
> 
> Thanks


They will all work fine. UST is the industry standard for tubeless bicycle tires and rims. UST tires have heavier sidewalls and may not require sealant. UST rims have no spoke holes and thus require no rim strips or sealant. You can use regular/non-UST tires with sealant on UST rims also.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

big0mike said:


> It seems 1 part latex | 2 part tubeless slime | 2 part water is something of a "current" brew so I'll be trying it. Hopefully my WTB tires won't have any issues :thumbsup:


Front tire is now tubeless  I did cheat a little, though, and sprung for the $25 strips at the Pig. Can't figure out how the hell you're supposed to get the core outta them, though.

Got it all together and aired it up and I could hear the hissing. Unplugged the air hose and started shaking and before I got all the way around it'd stopped. Plenty of bubbles, though. I believe it took maybe 6-8 rounds of shaking before all the bubbles went away. We'll see if the tire still has air in the morning 

The hardest part was getting the strips in the rim properly. Buying them, while it will make changing tires and adding sealant easier made the initial installation longer than it needed to be. If you go the slit inner tube route it'd be much quicker.

And it was much easier than I anticipated.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Didn't have time to do the rear tire tonight but I've noticed now that while the front is still holding air it has a bunch of little pin pricks of Home Brew seeping out the sidewalls, one side more than the other. I've heard about this issue but don't remember if it's a problem. Will the seeping get worse as I ride causing me to lose sealant? (Edit: in any significant amount to worry about). I'm guessing I just need to ignore it...


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## cncwhiz (Sep 8, 2010)

Would my local bike shop have this Stan's stuff? I don't want to have to order it.


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## cncwhiz (Sep 8, 2010)

Also, how much is in a "scoop"?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

2 ozs


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Whew... rear tire didn't go so well. Front tire was a slightly used Weirwolf 2.1. This tire was a more heavily used Velociraptor 2.1 in which the center nipples were ground about halfway down.

Added air and it was hissing like a viper. I guess this is where testing the tire without sealant before would've been a good step to not skip  Couldn't even get it above 30 psi. I thought it was leaking around the rim as it hadn't set the bead yet but as I continued to add air and shake and spin it to seal the holes so it would hold air I realized it was coming from numerous holes in the sidewall and one gigantic hole just on the outside edge of the tread. I rotated it around, still while adding air, and got the hole to seal and finally got enough air in it. Shake, rotate, shake, rotate... This one took quite a few sessions and when it finally sealed up I bounced it pretty hard on the ground several times right on that big hole and wound up with a couple ounces of sealant all over the garage floor as it blew almost immediately.

It sealed up again but there was no f'in' way I was riding that pig so I pulled the whole thing apart, threw the velociraptor out, and grabbed a new Weirwolf 2.3 (one of two that I bought just for when I went tubeless) and it sealed up like a charm. 

As advised on other threads I mounted the rear "backwards". But, unfortunately, I've got a 2.1 up front and 2.3 in back. I'd rather it be reversed but it's not like I'm good enough to notice a difference


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## cncwhiz (Sep 8, 2010)

I did the mix just like the OP.

1 part mold builders latex
1 part Slime
1 part 50/50 antifreeze
2 parts water

This was my first tubeless attempt and first time working with any type of sealant, and it seems to be holding air fine in my tires. I'm using Geax Sagauro TNTs.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

*Burping?*

I burped my front tire TWICE today. And I was actually running it harder than I had in the past. So, either I forgot how to use a hand pump or mine wasn't working properly so I used CO2 to refill it both times. I've read we're not supposed to do that but not sure why. But, just in case the CO2 has some type of action with the sealant, and because I wasn't sure how much sealant I lost, I emptied the front of air and used my Stan's pump to put another 2 oz. of Home Brew in it.

Questions:

1. Use CO2 or not?
2. If not but have to, like I did, would I need to come home, empty the tire of air, and then reinflate it with comrpessor?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

big0mike said:


> I burped my front tire TWICE today. And I was actually running it harder than I had in the past. So, either I forgot how to use a hand pump or mine wasn't working properly so I used CO2 to refill it both times. I've read we're not supposed to do that but not sure why. But, just in case the CO2 has some type of action with the sealant, and because I wasn't sure how much sealant I lost, I emptied the front of air and used my Stan's pump to put another 2 oz. of Home Brew in it.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...


I could not find the post from Mike or NoTubes here that I remember, but here is a thread on the NoTubes support forums. There are a few posts in the thread from NoTubes about why it is not recommended.

http://messageboard.notubes.com/viewtopic.php?t=66



> It can shorten the life of the sealant in that it can turn the once liquid sealant into one rubber ball. If you must use CO2, you can inflate the tire without sealant, then deflate the tire and add your sealant through the valve stem. With most tire and rim combinations, the beads of the tire will stay on the benches of the rim making re-inflation much easier.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slocaus said:


> I could not find the post from Mike or NoTubes here that I remember, but here is a thread on the NoTubes support forums. There are a few posts in the thread from NoTubes about why it is not recommended.
> 
> http://messageboard.notubes.com/viewtopic.php?t=66


Perfect, thanks! It seems what method has it covered. I guess I should've rolled the tire around a little to see if I heard any green cholla balls rolling around in there...


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## SlowerThenSnot (Jul 16, 2004)

sean salach said:


> I'm no chemist, but I can't think of a single liquid that doesn't freeze that's really environmentally friendly and completely harmless to living creatures. Unless maybe there's some way we could work a highly saline solution into it....


Whiskey or Vodka?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

big0mike said:


> I burped my front tire TWICE today. And I was actually running it harder than I had in the past. So, either I forgot how to use a hand pump or mine wasn't working properly so I used CO2 to refill it both times. I've read we're not supposed to do that but not sure why. But, just in case the CO2 has some type of action with the sealant, and because I wasn't sure how much sealant I lost, I emptied the front of air and used my Stan's pump to put another 2 oz. of Home Brew in it.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...


I refilled the twice burped tire with my Home Brew and reinflated. The very next day it had lost a substantial amount of air just sitting there. So, last night I grabbed my bucket and soapy water for a shake down.

I was surprised at how many big spots were leaking. After 8 or 10 shake downs I've got one side sealed but the second side remains stubborn. It's only from two rather small spots about 120º from each other so I'm wondering how I should proceed?


Just ride it like a rental and pray nothing happens! I know the master Stan says he would not ride on any tire that didn't completely seal but it's been sitting overnight and lost little air so I'm honestly not too worried about riding on it. Maybe I'm a dummy?
Pull the tire off, clean the rim strip and the bead of the tire, refill HB, reseat and reinflate. I think my first choice is just ride but when I have time I'll probably do this.
Scrap it and put on a new tire. I've got another Weirwolf waiting to be used but this one has so few miles on it I'd hate to scrap it.
I guess I'll find out how big a dummy I am Saturday when I ride...


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

big0mike said:


> I refilled the twice burped tire with my Home Brew and reinflated. The very next day it had lost a substantial amount of air just sitting there. So, last night I grabbed my bucket and soapy water for a shake down.
> 
> I was surprised at how many big spots were leaking. After 8 or 10 shake downs I've got one side sealed but the second side remains stubborn. It's only from two rather small spots about 120º from each other so I'm wondering how I should proceed?
> 
> ...


Just keep riding it, it will prolly seal up eventually. Some tires are like that, okay if riding but lose air sitting. More so if used when converted, IME.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Ride it!. it could be leaking because there is a small piece of dirt/sand/etc. under the bead, but after a time, it will probably seal. Long term, it might not hurt to redo the tire. I generally redo mine every 6-8 months to keep my sealant fresh.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I've actually shaken it enough times that my skewers came apart 

It's pretty close to sealed now so I put it on the bike. We'll see what happens...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Well, I'm at a loss currently. Just got my brand new Pitch and I'm making it tubeless. Had minor issues my first attempt quite a few months back. This time I got a couple Stan's removable core valves and a roll of 1" Gorilla Tape.

Have a brand new Weirwolf 2.3 that's been waiting for this new bike. Tape it up, put in the valve, and try to air it up and it won't hold air for ****. Took out the core and still won't hold air.

Tried TWO layers of tape and finally got it to pop after pulling out the core again. Filled it with my home brew, aired it up without the core, put core in, shake n roll. It's leaking like a sieve but I know that's not uncommon. Give it a dozen sessions of shake n roll and it's starting to seal up. One side is good, the other has two of the tiniest bubble makers after a couple dozen sessions. I notice a substantial amount of air has left the tire so I fill it back up to around 50 psi.

It immediately starts leaking like a sieve again.

Just 2oz of sealant is normal, right? I mean, that's why I got the damn Stan's syringe so I'd always put the right amount in. Something just ain't working.

I'm not sure if my next step is to pull my Stan's Strips outta my current bike and try them or to get a 20" tube and go full ghetto.

Where the "exceptionally irritated" smilie?

:incazzato:

There, that works... Going to sleep and got a busy day tomorrow. Looks like I won't be riding my new bike tomorrow


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

big0mike said:


> I'm not sure if my next step is to pull my Stan's Strips outta my current bike and try them or to get a 20" tube and go full ghetto.


I tried running Ghetto and Stan's both with less than desirable results and am now a Bontrager convert. It seems that all of my past troubles were due to a loose fit between the tire and rim, but also the fact that there is nothing to keep the bead pushed out against the rim but air. The Bontrager rim strip is made of a fairly hard plastic that is much thicker than Stan's or even a few layers of tape, plus it has the benefit of a crown ridge that keeps the bead from sucking back into the rim channel.

I paid $9.30 for each strip and $3.25 for each core at my local Trek bike store, so try some Bontrager TLR strips and turn that frown upside down!  I have had this setup in place since September and aside from adjusting pressure to my conditions, have not had to touch them.


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

These pictures were floating around that helped me make the switch.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

big0mike said:


> I notice a substantial amount of air has left the tire so I fill it back up to around 50 psi.
> 
> It immediately starts leaking like a sieve again.
> 
> Just 2oz of sealant is normal, right? I mean, that's why I got the damn Stan's syringe so I'd always put the right amount in. Something just ain't working.


At 50 psi, you are forcing sealant out before it can work. 

I do max 30psi, and during the lay and seal phase, I only keep 15-20 psi or I waste sealant. Once both sides do not bubble, then I go to 30psi and if it leaks, I drop it down and lay it down again. Repeat process until it does not leak at 30 psi. :thumbsup:

Most 29er tires I run the recommended two scoops, which is two 2 oz syringes full, so 4 oz. Smaller volume tires I run with 3 oz, but never less than that except on a TLR tire,a then 2-3 oz based on volume.

With your 2 oz and at 50 psi, it is like aiming a fire hose at a kleenex - that baby ain't got a prayer to hold.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

Ha! For my initial fill I've put in 8oz. 
I second the too high initial PSI, once the head pops, back down the pressure.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slocaus said:


> At 50 psi, you are forcing sealant out before it can work.
> 
> I do max 30psi, ...
> 
> Most 29er tires I run the recommended two scoops, which is two 2 oz syringes full, so 4 oz. Smaller volume tires I run with 3 oz, but never less than that except on a TLR tire,a then 2-3 oz based on volume.


Hmmm... I know everything I've seen says to pump them up to 50 or 60 psi. Now, I could certainly be wrong about the 2oz part...



ajmelin said:


> Ha! For my initial fill I've put in 8oz.


Good to know. I've always thought having too much really can't be bad unless you have a catastrophic blowout and lose it all. But, home brew is cheap so I'm not worried about that scenario.

I think I figured out part of the issue. There wasn't any home brew left in the tire. I was gonna break the seal and see if there was any brew in it and the seal on the bad side was tight as hell. So, pulled the core and dumped in another 2 oz of brew and after only 2 more shake n rolls it was sealed up. I didn't realize I couldn't hear any shaking inside until I refilled it. 

Seems odd that the recommendation is 2oz and I clearly needed more than that. It's only a 2.3 tire, too. Maybe it was just a fluke... Oh well. Let's home the rear is a little easier than the front.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I've beeen using 2 ozs of homebrew for several years now and haven't had a problem. Sometimes after a lengthy install it must be topped off because there isn't any extra in a 2 oz dose and you may have lost more than you think. In my experience there are a few other details which may be a problem. If the tire is new, have you unfolded and let it relax and get rid of the wrinkles in the bead? Have you dry inflated to seat the beads, using soapy water and removing the core from the valve stem, and visually checked the beads to ensure they are seated symmetrically? Have you ridden it around the block a time or two? Using more sealant than necessary won't hurt anything, it just adds weight to the wheel. If you use a whole bunch of it and still can't get a seal could be something else is wrong, but if it will air up and hold for a bit the best thing to do is ride the effing thing. The other thing is to air down and pull a section of bead aside and visually check the sealant level occasionally. Low sealant levels cause leaking tires, in some climates it evaporates fast, like 2 ozs a month of some sealants, so the tire is prolly running too dry a good percentage of the time. One of the things about ust rims is that they eliminate many of the tubeless wheel converted rim related problems and narrow it down to either a valve or tire problem.


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

big0mike said:


> Hmmm... I know everything I've seen says to pump them up to 50 or 60 psi. Now, I could certainly be wrong about the 2oz part.


You should not go over 40psi. Here is a quote from Stan's website. "inflate the tire to 35-40 psi (never inflate over 40 psi)" from this installation instruction link.

http://www.notubes.com/support_detailed.php

The only time to go to 60psi is on a UST to UST set up. Sometimes those take a high pressure to seat.

You don't want to go to high pressure on any non UST setups. Especially standard tires on Stan's strips, split tube ghetto, or pipe tape ghetto. You are not popping a UST bead into place into a UST rim.:nono: When I set up split tube ghetto tubeless I only inflate to 35 psi and do the shaking, and I use a good 2 scoops of sealant.

The only blow off I ever had using split tube ghetto was because my compressor gauge malfunctioned and I inflated the tire to 55psi and rode it like that. It blew off when going slow. I set mine up at 35psi, and then run them at 25-28psi. On my Stan's flow rims, the tires make a loud snap as they pop into place at 25psi or so.

I personally think a split tube is easier to seat than a Stan's strip. With either though, you don't need to try to make anything "pop" into place on inflation. It simply presses outward and seals, and 35psi is all that is needed. More psi risks stretching the bead, and blowing off the tire, and it spreads the casing threads apart making it harder to seal.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> If the tire is new, have you unfolded and let it relax and get rid of the wrinkles in the bead?


Yes, It had been sitting in my garage in a relatively round shape for months.



bsieb said:


> Have you dry inflated to seat the beads, using soapy water and removing the core from the valve stem, and visually checked the beads to ensure they are seated symmetrically? Have you ridden it around the block a time or two?


Tried for 20 minutes with no luck. Core in and out. Finally, at some point, everything hooked up and I heard the beads pop on but then it was immediately hissing like a snake from both sides. No way to test ride it.



bsieb said:


> One of the things about ust rims is that they eliminate many of the tubeless wheel converted rim related problems and narrow it down to either a valve or tire problem.


I don't know what UST rims cost but I'm sure it would put my new purchase well over the threshold of my already stretched budget. The bike & KS i950 is already past my $1500 budget I wanted to stay within.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

big0mike said:


> Yes, It had been sitting in my garage in a relatively round shape for months.
> 
> Tried for 20 minutes with no luck. Core in and out. Finally, at some point, everything hooked up and I heard the beads pop on but then it was immediately hissing like a snake from both sides. No way to test ride it.
> 
> I don't know what UST rims cost but I'm sure it would put my new purchase well over the threshold of my already stretched budget. The bike & KS i950 is already past my $1500 budget I wanted to stay within.


Hmmm, maybe the tires are old and the beads not as flexible? Are they really cold? In any case, once the beads have popped on, just let the air out, inject sealant, replace valve core, inflate and shake a bit to distribute the sealant. Worst case scenario is to put a tube in the tire and inflate it over night so the beads conform to the rim.

There is a bit if a learning curve...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> Hmmm, maybe the tires are old and the beads not as flexible? Are they really cold? In any case, once the beads have popped on, just let the air out, inject sealant, replace valve core, inflate and shake a bit to distribute the sealant.


It was a brand new tire, never mounted. Been stored in the garage so it' cool but not cold.



bsieb said:


> There is a bit if a learning curve...


Yeah, that's why when the shop asked if I wanted them to do the tubeless conversion I told 'em no. I wanted another attempt under my belt. And I learned some more this time...


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## dtheo (Sep 18, 2005)

*recipe?*

I mixed it up the latest recipe and it doesn't even last a month:

1 part Latex mold builder
2 parts Slime tubeless
2 parts water

I am using Slime for all Tires if it makes a difference. Any ideas what I should try next?
I had a little bit better luck with the windshield fluid recipe, but I don't see how anyone gets a year out of this stuff. 2-3 months max for me


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

dtheo said:


> I mixed it up the latest recipe and it doesn't even last a month:
> 
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 2 parts Slime tubeless
> ...


What tires are you using and are you getting seepage from them?

I was having trouble with Stans sealant drying out very quickly - about 4 weeks. This was with Maxxis Crossmarks which I got a lot of seepage with.

I've since switched to Geax Saguaro's and Schwalbe Racing Ralph snakeskins, some have stans in, and some have the homebrew mix that you have. I haven't had to top up the sealant yet, after 4 months. I've pulled the tyres off a few times to true up the rims, and there was still plenty of sealant left.

I don't get any seepage with these tires, so I think they're more airtight than the crossmarks, and so don't allow the sealant to dry out.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

dtheo said:


> I mixed it up the latest recipe and it doesn't even last a month:
> 
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 2 parts Slime tubeless
> ...


My mix has been good for at least 6 months and is still going strong:

1 part mold builder
1 part ATV slime
3 parts RV refrigerator antifreeze

The antifreeze gives me the temperature stability and also does not contain the toxic ingredients of regular car antifreeze,


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

dtheo said:


> I mixed it up the latest recipe and it doesn't even last a month:
> 
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 2 parts Slime tubeless
> ...


I don't think it matters but I believe most people use either ATV tubeless Slime or auto tubeless Slime. Don't even know if it's any different but I would assume both are for larger tires probably developing larger holes so would be thicker? I don't know for sure on that. Just guessing...


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## Dictatorsaurus (Sep 11, 2009)

anyone had success with just latex mold builder and windshield washer fluid?


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

Dictatorsaurus said:


> anyone had success with just latex mold builder and windshield washer fluid?


That's what I've been using for the past 8 years. Works great... Just make sure you use it on anodized rims, because the ammonia in the Mold Builder will eventually corrode non-coated aluminum rims (as will Stan's). It's just one of those things you've gotta' be aware of.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

driver bob said:


> My mix has been good for at least 6 months and is still going strong:
> 
> 1 part mold builder
> 1 part ATV slime
> ...


This will be my next batch recipe. The RV antifreeze is premixed with water, it's the stuff you pour in your RV drains. In arid climates the antifreeze helps prevent evaporation, which can require adding up to 2 oz a month around here. It also prevents boogers. I have only used auto antifreeze so far but I believe the RV antifreeze has the same effect. A batch lasts me at least two years between 3 wheel sets and generosity to friends.


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## Dictatorsaurus (Sep 11, 2009)

mgersib said:


> That's what I've been using for the past 8 years. Works great... Just make sure you use it on anodized rims, because the ammonia in the Mold Builder will eventually corrode non-coated aluminum rims (as will Stan's). It's just one of those things you've gotta' be aware of.


What washer fluid / latex ratio you use?


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

driver bob said:


> My mix has been good for at least 6 months and is still going strong:
> 
> 1 part mold builder
> 1 part ATV slime
> ...


Been using this since June of '09. My original mixture is still going strong.

I do see a lot of separation in the jar, but a good shake takes care of it. Must be doing that in the tire too, but I'm guessing a couple minutes of riding redistributes it all.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Weirdness to report: 

I have the original Sauce mixture with 1/2 part extra slime (of the auto variety). I've had really good luck so far... my Michelin AT's lasted 10 and 12 months (rear went 12 months) and I just topped them off, filled em back up, and they're good to go. 

The other set of tires are Schwalbe Big Apples, 2.35". I set them up in August with very little struggle on WTB speed discs using gorilla tape. I took them off of my commuter bike in November and put the wheels with the michelins on there for the winter commuting months. the schwalbe wheels were stored in my shop, where temps ranged from -5 to 30 degrees F. I just went to put the schwalbes back on last night, and the front had lost a lot of air, but was still holding a bead. I aired it up and it was good to go. The rear was still holding about 25 psi (!). I was putting the rear back on the bike when I spun the wheel and realized that it sounded like there was a rubber ball inside. It bounces around in there and sounds like a mini gumball bouncing around until the speed gets high enough to stick it to the outside like it's on the gravitron at the fair. I didn't break the bead or look yet, but I rode it to work today :lol:


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

I'm getting ready to brew up my first-ever batch of this stuff (thanks to all the terrific info in this thread), and I've got a newbie question.

Will a 2L plastic soda bottle work for storage? I've seen mentions of glass jars and tupperware, and just wanted to make sure that cheap plastic won't react with anything or let too much air in over the long-term.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

newfangled said:


> I'm getting ready to brew up my first-ever batch of this stuff (thanks to all the terrific info in this thread), and I've got a newbie question.
> 
> Will a 2L plastic soda bottle work for storage? I've seen mentions of glass jars and tupperware, and just wanted to make sure that cheap plastic won't react with anything or let too much air in over the long-term.


The soda bottle won't hold a standard 80 oz batch, and you may find a larger opening works better for adding the latex. Those ~90 oz clear OJ bottles work really well. The sealant mix won't dissolve a soda bottle, btw.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

Thanks.

With the variations in this thread I thought 64oz might be close enough - basically 1 latex/1.5 slime/1.5 water. Or would that be too thick and I'd be better off aiming for 2.5 parts water? (I figured I could always water it down again if I needed to.)


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm using an antifreeze bottle.


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## SparxFlyer (Dec 29, 2010)

Looking to do my first tubeless conversion and like the info here... I am thinking to try Driver Bob's mix. (1/1/3 - latex / ATV Slime / RV Waterline Antifreeze). 

I have Maxxis 719 29" rims and will be using an Ignitor up front and Crossmark in the back... I'm looking forward to success because on one of my initial rides this fall on the Niagara Escarpment I flatted with a slow leak, replaced the tube, then pinch flatted and finally broke the valve stem on the slow leaking tire forcing a mercifully short (< 2 km) walk out. :-(

While I noted several mentions of using 20" and 26" cut down inner tubes (with Schrader valves) or using Gorilla tape, I am curious as to how which to use and how wide to cut the tube (or tape)? Just enough cover up the spoke holes / tape or should I be aiming to have it creep up the wall a bit to help with seating the beads of my tires? (There is some yellow tape in the rims already, but I think that's just the standard protection from the nipple holes type tape and should stay in place, yes?)

I take it as well that tubes with Presta valves are generally avoided as most have non-removable cores?

Appreciate the help!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I just centered the 1" wide Gorilla tape on the rim over top of the old rim strip. For a split tube you cut off what is sticking out after the tire is installed over the split tube.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Is anyone putting glitter into their mixtures anymore? I have not seen anyone mention it in a while.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

CommuterBoy said:


> I was putting the rear back on the bike when I spun the wheel and realized that it sounded like there was a rubber ball inside. It bounces around in there and sounds like a mini gumball bouncing around until the speed gets high enough to stick it to the outside like it's on the gravitron at the fair. I didn't break the bead or look yet, but I rode it to work today :lol:


Koosh booger! I googled this one:










I think they form when something has penetrated, and the mix coagulates to plug it. But then the clot (if you will) continues to grow and breaks loose, growing as it sets in the solution at the bottom of tire. I have found removing as soon as possible is good, with a little recharge. Some get upset, but I view them as the mixture working, and I just need to remove it when I realize it is there.

I have heard of them forming when someone uses CO2 to inflate, as the cold hit of CO2 "shocks" the latex into coagulating into a bugger when there is no penetrated object. My opinion is the CO2 is for racers and emergencies, but then pop the bead and check within a few days.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

newfangled said:


> Will a 2L plastic soda bottle work for storage? I've seen mentions of glass jars and tupperware, and just wanted to make sure that cheap plastic won't react with anything or let too much air in over the long-term.


I'm not sure how much everyone else is making but I put in ~12 oz of latex, 24 oz slime, 24 oz water. That's only 60 oz and I used an old windshield wiper fluid jug that probably holds a gallon and it's not even half full. I got a cheap funnel from AutoZone for getting the mix into the Stans Injector and for getting any remainder back into the jug.



SparxFlyer said:


> While I noted several mentions of using 20" and 26" cut down inner tubes (with Schrader valves) or using Gorilla tape, I am curious as to how which to use and how wide to cut the tube (or tape)? Just enough cover up the spoke holes / tape or should I be aiming to have it creep up the wall a bit to help with seating the beads of my tires?
> 
> I take it as well that tubes with Presta valves are generally avoided as most have non-removable cores?







That's a pretty good tutorial. You'll want to do EITHER Gorilla Tape OR 20" tube (not 26"). If you do the tube there's no need for tape other than what's certainly already covering your spoke screws. You'll slit the tube all the way around leaving the excess hanging outside of the rim. When it's completed you can trim the excess off. If I'd done it this way I would have elected to leave quite a bit extra so as to make it easier to break the bead to refill or change tires while still keeping the same inner tube.



slocaus said:


> I have heard of them forming when someone uses CO2 to inflate, as the cold hit of CO2 "shocks" the latex into coagulating into a bugger when there is no penetrated object. My opinion is the CO2 is for racers and emergencies, but then pop the bead and check within a few days.


I've heard something similar. But, my hand pump sucks ass so I've been using C02 when I burp. When I get home I completely deflate the tire, refill with home brew (if necessary) and then refill with air from the compressor. Hopefully, that removes whatever is in the C02 that's bad for the sealant. I haven't found any boogers yet...


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

slocaus said:


> Koosh booger! I googled this one:
> 
> I think they form when something has penetrated, and the mix coagulates to plug it. But then the clot (if you will) continues to grow and breaks loose, growing as it sets in the solution at the bottom of tire. I have found removing as soon as possible is good, with a little recharge. Some get upset, but I view them as the mixture working, and I just need to remove it when I realize it is there.
> 
> I have heard of them forming when someone uses CO2 to inflate, as the cold hit of CO2 "shocks" the latex into coagulating into a bugger when there is no penetrated object. My opinion is the CO2 is for racers and emergencies, but then pop the bead and check within a few days.


I swear I can hear this thing rolling, like it's a pretty well formed sphere. Can't wait to get in there to see


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

CommuterBoy said:


> I swear I can hear this thing rolling, like it's a pretty well formed sphere. Can't wait to get in there to see


The couple times I have had round ones rolling, there was almost no solution left, so do it as soon as you can. I did have a slow leak that I kind of ignored, and when I opened to recharge, I had a koosh, very oblong, that made no noise, even shaken next to my ear. All the solution was dried into the koosh. I could have had a flat in the week I ignored the slow leak.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Yeah I'm starting to feel like I'm pushing my luck. Rode it again today with no issues...but you don't want to take that kind of risk on the commuter bike in the winter... fixing a flat on the way to work with frozen fingers is no fun.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

ajmelin said:


> I think CO2 messes with the homebrew, if I remember right. Shortens the life of it for some reason. Not so much keeping the CO2 in the tire, but the act of using it, and how cold it is when it discharges from the canister. Sketchy details, I know but thought I'd bring it up. Can anyone confirm/deny?


I think this will be a confirmation. I just replaced the Weirwolf up front with the Eskar Control (damn those Specialized 2bliss tires seal perfectly and quickly!). Of course, my dumb ass put it on backwards but for the intentions of this test I don't think the "direction" of the knobbies will make any difference.










This is the first tire I've had on the new bike. I think we are into week 3 now and, embarrassingly, only three rides on the bike. Two of the three rides I suffered burps and had to use CO2 to inflate for a total of 3 CO2 injections; one on Geronimo, two on National. The tire still had at least 2 oz. of Brew in it plus that huge booger.

I think it's safe to say that for only three weeks that is an ENORMOUS booger. The CO2 must have certainly accounted for a large portion of that.

So, we know CO2 does affect the Brew. But, we also know that as long as you have plenty of Brew in your tires you don't have to worry as it does not booger your brew too quickly. Just more so than without CO2.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

OK I recharged the Big Apples last night. I had some amazingly round little bouncy balls in there! I would like to submit this as evidence that WSS Version 1 with 1/2 part extra slime makes the coolest shaped boogies. 

I had some struggle getting the rear to re-seat on the Speed Disc rim, because I broke more of the bead away from the rim than I wanted to...but overall I'm happy with the Big Apple/ Speed Disc combo. The tires weigh about 35 pounds each, but I have zero flats in roughly 1500 miles so far... 

Check these guys out!

This is almost exactly at the 6 month mark... first time I've done any service other than adding a little air.


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## t_roy (Jun 3, 2010)

CommuterBoy said:


> OK I recharged the Big Apples last night. I had some amazingly round little bouncy balls in there! I would like to submit this as evidence that WSS Version 1 with 1/2 part extra slime makes the coolest shaped boogies.
> 
> I had some struggle getting the rear to re-seat on the Speed Disc rim, because I broke more of the bead away from the rim than I wanted to...but overall I'm happy with the Big Apple/ Speed Disc combo. The tires weigh about 35 pounds each, but I have zero flats in roughly 1500 miles so far...
> 
> ...


I really hope you meant to say 3-5 lbs each???? or you are rolling some really heavy tires.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I was being sarcastic... they are really darn heavy. Awesome commute tire though. I aim for broken glass and chuckle at the crunchy sound it makes. :lol:




Side note: I always had a little bubbling and air loss at the bead of the front tire...it was tolerable, but it always bothered me. I had to add air every week or so. I always thought when I added sealant I'd pull the tire off and clean up the bead really good, clean the rim, and try to get a better seal... well I was in a hurry and didn't want to break the whole bead away from the rim, so I just added sealant and re-filled with air, and It's sealed up like a champ! I don't know what I did other than let all the air out and re-fill it...the new sealant went straight to work and it's completely sealed though. No measureable air loss in 3 days so far. I dunno...


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I use CO2 after burps sometimes but I've never had a booger. I do make sure the stem is rotated up so the CO2 doesn't freeze the sealant into a booger as it goes in. 

I do occasionally have a tire go dry, but then the latex is just a thin evenly distributed coating on the inside of the tire.

That's my story...


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## dubtrialsin (Nov 4, 2010)

Going on 9 mos with plain old stan's.
No drying or anything living in Florida til November.
Moved to ND and when my bike arrived after a month in cold storage the boogers were audible...
Ive read that there is a chemical in slime that rots aluminium
After seeing it a million times at the shop in crap bikes that makes me a little weary of adding it to my crossmax/python setup..


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

elsewhere said:


> Going on 9 mos with plain old stan's.
> No drying or anything living in Florida til November.
> Moved to ND and when my bike arrived after a month in cold storage the boogers were audible...
> Ive read that there is a chemical in slime that rots aluminium
> After seeing it a million times at the shop in crap bikes that makes me a little weary of adding it to my crossmax/python setup..


It could be ammonia, it has been discussed on this thread previously if I remember correctly. Wadester might be able to address the corrosion issue...


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

Does anyone know the shelf life and how to best store the latex mold builder. I just went to make a new batch and it was solidified. It was an unopened sealed container, however......it is at least 6 months old and it has been stored in my unheated garage all winter subject to many freeze/thaw cycles. 
Will it keep better in my cool basement? Or maybe it wasn't completely sealed from hobby lobby/factory?


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## minh (May 23, 2004)

Andy13 said:


> Does anyone know the shelf life and how to best store the latex mold builder. I just went to make a new batch and it was solidified. It was an unopened sealed container, however......it is at least 6 months old and it has been stored in my unheated garage all winter subject to many freeze/thaw cycles.
> Will it keep better in my cool basement? Or maybe it wasn't completely sealed from hobby lobby/factory?


i've mine since last summer in a plastic antifreeze jug (reused the one I bought). temperature about 60 degrees year round (unheated section of basement). used it to re-do (remove tire, clean rim and tire a little, new gorilla tape) front tire in the fall, and again just three days ago on the rear tire. still works. had a huge booger in the front tire (weirwolf) and no boogers in rear (ignitor).


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

Andy13 said:


> Does anyone know the shelf life and how to best store the latex mold builder. I just went to make a new batch and it was solidified. It was an unopened sealed container, however......it is at least 6 months old and it has been stored in my unheated garage all winter subject to many freeze/thaw cycles.
> Will it keep better in my cool basement? Or maybe it wasn't completely sealed from hobby lobby/factory?


Not sure how it compares to your basement, but I store mine in the fridge. Seems fine after getting close to a year. Possibly different companies have a different shelf life too.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

elsewhere said:


> Going on 9 mos with plain old stan's.
> No drying or anything living in Florida til November.
> Moved to ND and when my bike arrived after a month in cold storage the boogers were audible...
> Ive read that there is a chemical in slime that rots aluminium
> After seeing it a million times at the shop in crap bikes that makes me a little weary of adding it to my crossmax/python setup..


The only chemical in Slime that is corrosive is: Water!

The ammonia that keeps latex liquid (pH does it) will corrode aluminum - but not aluminum oxide, otherwise known as anodizing or basically what "raw" aluminum does fairly fast on its own after you expose a fresh surface. No real worries.



Andy13 said:


> Does anyone know the shelf life and how to best store the latex mold builder. I just went to make a new batch and it was solidified. It was an unopened sealed container, however......it is at least 6 months old and it has been stored in my unheated garage all winter subject to many freeze/thaw cycles.
> Will it keep better in my cool basement? Or maybe it wasn't completely sealed from hobby lobby/factory?


I always wonder how old the mold builder is when I buy it. I've never had worse than a skin on the top when I opened the plastic "jar". A buddy of mine went a bit over the top a bought a gallon - came in a steel paint can. He's been using it slowly for years, never even a skin on top when opened - I saw it when half gone, and it was fresh. Maybe that last pint would congeal, but......

Once mixed, I've never seen any change - sitting on the counter in the kitchen.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

wadester said:


> I always wonder how old the mold builder is when I buy it. I've never had worse than a skin on the top when I opened the plastic "jar". A buddy of mine went a bit over the top a bought a gallon - came in a steel paint can. He's been using it slowly for years, never even a skin on top when opened - I saw it when half gone, and it was fresh. Maybe that last pint would congeal, but......
> 
> Once mixed, I've never seen any change - sitting on the counter in the kitchen.


Must be similar to my stuff. Got it from a fibreglass supplier in 4ltr. The craft stuff may be a different recipe


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Andy13 said:


> Does anyone know the shelf life and how to best store the latex mold builder. I just went to make a new batch and it was solidified. It was an unopened sealed container, however......it is at least 6 months old and it has been stored in my unheated garage all winter subject to many freeze/thaw cycles.
> Will it keep better in my cool basement? Or maybe it wasn't completely sealed from hobby lobby/factory?


I'm wondering that myself...

I'm in the process of moving and just brought some of my gear over to the new house and my jug of brew was green with DARK green splotches in it, almost like oil on water. Shook it up good and it looked almost normal but the consistency seemed very thin. I seem to remember it being like a very thin milkshake texture. I'll have to make another batch and compare... I gotta remount my front tire in the correct directions anyways...


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> I'm wondering that myself...
> 
> I'm in the process of moving and just brought some of my gear over to the new house and my jug of brew was green with DARK green splotches in it, almost like oil on water. Shook it up good and it looked almost normal but the consistency seemed very thin. I seem to remember it being like a very thin milkshake texture. I'll have to make another batch and compare... I gotta remount my front tire in the correct directions anyways...


Kinda sounds like the batch that coagulated when I mixed it. Does it kinda look like egg drop soup? White strands and such? Won't seal anything if so. Should stay uniform milky green, with maybe some of the chunked rubber bits settling on the bottom.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> Kinda sounds like the batch that coagulated when I mixed it. Does it kinda look like egg drop soup? White strands and such? Won't seal anything if so. Should stay uniform milky green, with maybe some of the chunked rubber bits settling on the bottom.


I guess it did kinda look like egg drop soup but once I shook it up it "looked" normal. I can see little rubber bits on the bottom and little globs of sealant all along the walls of the jug it's in. It just seems thinner than usual.


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## Utilityman (Feb 19, 2011)

Has the recipe changed since page 5 or so?
1 part Latex mold builder
1 part Slime tubeless
1 part cheap antifreeze
2 parts water

Also, I don't know if any one has touched on this:
Is anyone drilling the inner wall of their rim just as stans no tubes does on the video? 
Im not quite sure what valves i am going to use yet, prob just a cut off threaded valve with rvc.

What rim strip are you guys using? stans, caffeelatex strips, ghetto(20''tube) standard velox strip....???

I would like to use a geax saguario tnt tire, and people are saying they can be near impossible to mount
with stans rimstrip, so i am thinkin caffeelatex strip or if a nylon strip would work fine? Maybe a yellow strip(what is a yellow strip?


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Only change I made was to buy Prestone Plumbing/RV antifreeze. It's already diluted for use (so water can be excluded) and also it's less toxic so safer to use.

1 part latex
1 part slime
3 parts RV anti-freeze

My mix has been good for over 12 months now.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I shortened the ingredients list, since slime uses propylene glycol antifreeze as the carrier fluid anyways:

1 latex
2 Slime
2 Water

It's all good.

I've always used stan's rim strips - easily reusable. Ghetto works great - but it's hard to reuse the split tube? Donno.


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## Utilityman (Feb 19, 2011)

the rubber strip right not just the yellow strip? 

I went to pick up a part at the LBS the other day and the mechanic tried to tell me that I could use stans yellow rim strip twice around the rim get some tubeless valves and tires then call it a day. (no stans rubber strip) IDK about that??? He said they do it all the time for people and charge $60 for the tubeless conversion.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

ridefast84 said:


> the rubber strip right not just the yellow strip?
> 
> I went to pick up a part at the LBS the other day and the mechanic tried to tell me that I could use stans yellow rim strip twice around the rim get some tubeless valves and tires then call it a day. (no stans rubber strip) IDK about that??? He said they do it all the time for people and charge $60 for the tubeless conversion.


I have used Stan's yellow tape and valves on non Stans rims with good luck. The DT RR 1.1 road rims on my Rock Lobster have Nanos mounted tubeless that way now.


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## Utilityman (Feb 19, 2011)

Cool, I guess I am going to try it! This will save me a lot of $$$ not having to buy the full stans kit. I think 10 yards of the tape is $11.99
I have mavic 317s that i am going to put some geax tnt tires on. I was a little worried that tnt tires wouldn't fit with the stans rubber strips.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

ridefast84 said:


> Cool, I guess I am going to try it! This will save me a lot of $$$ not having to buy the full stans kit. I think 10 yards of the tape is $11.99
> I have mavic 317s that i am going to put some geax tnt tires on. I was a little worried that tnt tires wouldn't fit with the stans rubber strips.


You can also use Gorilla Tape for a great ghetto tubeless tape. That will be my choice now. I had the tape left from a couple sets of Stans rims on other bikes.

One suggestions if you use the yellow tape. Scuff the inside of the rim where the tape will seat, especially if anodized; I use steel wool. Then mount a tire with tube and inflate to 40-50 psi, set it somewhere in the sun if you can and leave it for a few hours or a day. That seats the yellow tape so it does not leak.


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## Utilityman (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks guys, ill get rollin on this soon!


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## clarkrw3 (Feb 21, 2011)

So no one is using glitter anymore? Also where are you picking up the latex mold builder at?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Glitter got debunked a few years back. It's the wrong shape to plug a hole, but seems to be good at getting between the bead and the rim. Makes really pretty boogers, tho.









Date: Sun November 16, 2008

Oh, yeah: Latex Mold [email protected] lobby


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## MaukaRunner (Jul 7, 2004)

*New question*

Has anyone thought of using chopped up rubber bands instead of ground up rubber? Rubber bands are more pliable and might seal small punctures as well. Just a thought.

A local sushi place uses all these nice colored bands and I hate throwing them away so was just thinking about it.

What do you guys think?


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## Utilityman (Feb 19, 2011)

Alright so i mixed up my WSS sealant 
1 latex (1 cup)
2 Slime (2 cups)
2 Water (2 cups)
I made sure to shake the container I mixed the sealant really well.

I then used an sos green pad to go over my rim bed very well, next I mounted my gorilla tape on the rim making sure there were no air bubbles, then went over the tape with my finger to make sure tape had good contact with rim. Next I mounted tire with tube and filled tube with 60 psi. I went for a ride around the block and let the wheel set for a bit. 
I removed my tube, then installed stans tubeless valve and mounted my Geax aka TNT tire filled the tire to 60psi (with no sealant) to seat the bead. I let the air out and injected 2.5Oz of wss sealant and shook the wheel laid it on its side and repeated several times on both sides. The air was down to 20psi within 15-20 min. So I took the wheel up to the bathtub and the air is definitely leaking through the bead not the spoke eilet holes or valve. 

Any suggestions would help, thanks
Sorry about the long message, I wanted to be thorough about what I did.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

TNT tires generally not all that good with regular rim. They like Tubeless rims. The problem is that the bead diameter is a little small and it is very hard to get the bead all the way out. Also the bead seat area is slightly different than a regular tire. If you take all apart and clean everything off and use lots of very soapy water along the bead seat area, you will probably get it to seat good with 60 psi (I would not go higher) and then use a syringe to put the sealant in through the valve stem since you won't want to unseat the bead. Also, with a TNT tire, I would generally use less sealant like 1.5 ounces.


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## Utilityman (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks!
I did not hear the bead pop like it usually does when mounting a ust tire to ust rim, not sure if its supposed to with a tubeless conversion. I did use a syringe to put the sealant through the valve. I am confident the sealent works cuz it sealed up great on my wifes bike with tubes as i purposely put a goad head through the tire and pull it out!


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## Utilityman (Feb 19, 2011)

I was expecting the sealant to seep in between the bead and rim, but there was nothing.

I know I am not using stans but the website says that I can use both geax tires and mavic 317 rims.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

ridefast84 said:


> I was expecting the sealant to seep in between the bead and rim, but there was nothing.


Some combos take hours (2-24+) to days (2-5) laying on their sides on buckets to get the seal.


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## Utilityman (Feb 19, 2011)

After a few hours of shaking and sitting on a bucket the set up is holding air longer. We will see how it is in the morning. Thanks again for the help!


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## Treetrimmer (Dec 8, 2008)

I put the spooge in before I pop the last part of the tire over the rim. Then roll the wheel (truing stand works good). Spray the bead w/windex then air up and shake. DO NOT exceed 35 psi (had one blow in my hands!). Ride around the block. Maybe put more than 2.5 oz?


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## Utilityman (Feb 19, 2011)

so there was no luck this morning, i added a 3/4 oz of h2o aired up the tire and it sealed up very nicely. I put the wheel on my bike and spun it in the stand then let it sitt on a bucket. ive been holding 40 psi for the entire day. 

I was precise on my initial mixing but i felt the mixture needed ti be a little closer to the consistency as stans. No offense to the creator of wss, u have saved me lots of money.


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## frankenmike (May 2, 2009)

Thanks for the recipe, wadester. I just set up a pair of delgado disc 29er with maxxis ignitor usng the latex, slime, and water mix. Gorilla tape to seal the rim. Had slow bead seepage for about ten minutes, then sealed up nice. It is funny because it actually says on the rim: Not for tubeless use! Whatevs. Cheers


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

ridefast84 said:


> so there was no luck this morning, i added a 3/4 oz of h2o aired up the tire and it sealed up very nicely. I put the wheel on my bike and spun it in the stand then let it sitt on a bucket. ive been holding 40 psi for the entire day.
> 
> I was precise on my initial mixing but i felt the mixture needed ti be a little closer to the consistency as stans. No offense to the creator of wss, u have saved me lots of money.


It might have served you well in the beginning to leave those tubes in at least overnight. If there is a lump or thick spot in the tire bead it may take longer for the pressure to force it to conform to the rim. I might also point out that the object is not to create a PERFECTLY air tight tire/rim unit, heck even tubes lose pressure over time. If it will hold 40 psi for a day that's enough to ride the bike and it will continue to improve over the first few rides, at least that has been my experience. My tires typically lose a few pounds a week but I adjust pressure every time I ride so it's no problem functionally. Typically, low pressures are being used in tubeless tires which makes the exact pressure all that much more critical. After the initial breakin period, if your tire isn't holding air as well as it used to, it may be time to bring the sealant level back up, just open a few inches of bead and visually check and adjust as necessary. I find that I typically need to adjust sealant levels every 4 months to a year where I live. Once the tire has been mounted and ridden for a few rides the bead will easily pop right back on with a high volume floor pump.

Also consider that thicker is not necessarily better over time with the wss sealant. The thinnest you can get away with is prolly better in terms of useful life of the sealant.


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## Utilityman (Feb 19, 2011)

thanks bsieb, gotta go ride now!!!


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## appleSSeed (Dec 29, 2003)

great thread!

where is everyone getting their slime from?


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## Boyonabyke (Sep 5, 2007)

ridefast84 said:


> Alright so i mixed up my WSS sealant
> 1 latex (1 cup)
> 2 Slime (2 cups)
> 2 Water (2 cups)
> ...


You need about 2 scoops worth or 4 fl oz of mix to do the seal the first time. You also need to see the Stan's "How to install a tire and seal it" video, with doing the shake/slosh, all the way around the bottom of the rim, befoe putting it on the bucket sideways.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

appleSSeed said:


> great thread!
> 
> where is everyone getting their slime from?


Lowes or the autoparts store


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Slime at Wal-Fart by the gallon.


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## Utilityman (Feb 19, 2011)

RandyBoy said:


> You need about 2 scoops worth or 4 fl oz of mix to do the seal the first time. You also need to see the Stan's "How to install a tire and seal it" video, with doing the shake/slosh, all the way around the bottom of the rim, befoe putting it on the bucket sideways.


I did watch the video and used the right procedure, the mixture needed to be a little thinner. I added some water and the tire/rim sealed up very nicely.


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## FastMatt (Nov 8, 2008)

*Differences in Slimes??*

Any of you Slime gurus know the real differences in the Slimes? I made some tubeless brew last year after reading this thread and used the 1 pt latex mold builder / 2 parts slime (for atv/lawn mower) / 2 parts water / 1 part antifreeze. Worked great with minimal sidewall weepage. Sealed every puncture including a 3/16" gash (took a while and lost about 10 lbs. air, but finished the race). When I went to get more supplies I questioned the differences between the slimes and if one was better than the other. There are several versions: atv/mower, auto tires, and "all" tires, to name the ones I remember. The only difference I could visually see is the atv/lawn mower version had a slightly darker green color. Other than that, they all look pretty much the same and the wording on the bottles is pretty much the same. What are the differences, and does it matter? Just wondering.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

New to the tubeless thing, wondering the same: Which Slime is best? Also, without plowing through 800 posts any consensus on the best brew?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Basically there are 2 types of Slime. Tube and Tubeless. If you read the bottles closely they will be for one or the other. You want tubeless type for sure. If you buy the gallon at Wal-mart it just says "for all tubeless tires" and a gallon is around $20 and lasts me for 2 years.


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## Utilityman (Feb 19, 2011)

Everyone said to use the atv/mower, I think because it has the tiny pieces of rubber in there. I made quite a bit to put into our 3 atv's, 2 wheelbarrow's, and 5 bikes.

Although I havent had a puncture yet, my tubeless wheels sealed up in no time. This stuff is great!


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## FastMatt (Nov 8, 2008)

I get what you are saying, but it makes me wonder why they have so many tubeless versions. My logical brain says there must be a difference in the tubeless versions, or there wouldn't be so many different ones. Also, the bottle sizes and prices vary between the types. Again, why? Being like most other DIY'ers on this thread, if one of them has a superior benefit (for our homebrew setups) over another, even it is only a subtle benefit, I would like to know of it. It could be that there is little to no difference, and it is all just marketing hype. Not that any company would try that old trick. I guess what I am really looking for is if there is a consensus on one being better than another (tubeless versions that is).


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## flexbaba (Jan 12, 2009)

The 'latex mold buider' I've gotten myself is really thick, but according to the shop assistant it mixes with water. 
I'm wondering which type is preferred, the one that is almost like a 'gel' or the liquid stuff? I've been speedreading this thread, but can't quite figure out which one has the best properties.

The latex has a real bad ammonia smell, too. I've noticed the same with Stan's, but this is much worse. No prob, I guess, since ghetto tubeless prevents the brew to get in touch with my rims. 
Should I be reluctant to use the homemade mix on my ZTR rims, with just a layer of yellow tape?

Well, I've got the goods now so I will give it a go anyway with a small batch. The Slime I will be using is the motorcycle type.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

Anyone have a comparison of the ATV Slime vs the Slime Pro?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

By the time you mix the mold builder the concentration of ammonia will be roughly the same as Stans and the ZTR rims are made to use with Stans. Yes the mold builder starts out kinda thick, but after you mix it the consistency will be perfect. I am not familiar with "gel" mold builder. The stuff you want is almost pure white (very light tan color) and thick and smells like ammonia. Most all motorcycle tires are tubeless so that should be the correct Slime.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Anyone mix up a 1:2:1 Mold Builder:Slime:Water batch?

I just made another batch and while I may have had a problem with my last batch "coagulating" (unconfirmed) I thought it was a little thin. So, I cut the water in half. I guess we'll see... :thumbsup:


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

flexbaba said:


> The latex has a real bad ammonia smell, too. I've noticed the same with Stan's, but this is much worse. No prob, I guess, since ghetto tubeless prevents the brew to get in touch with my rims.
> Should I be reluctant to use the homemade mix on my ZTR rims, with just a layer of yellow tape?


Ammonia will only effect bare aluminum. So if it's anodized it should be protected.

Where I have had trouble in the past is when it somehow got under the Stan's strips and where the spoke nipple met the rim over time it wore off the anodizing and eventually ate the aluminum and they started to fail at that location. The rear went first and I switched out to brass nipples then about 6 months later the front started doing the same thing so I switched it out.

I'm hoping the split tube ghetto method will offer the protection needed plus I don't build with aluminum nipples anymore. The weight savings is pretty small so about all you are really loosing is the bling factor of colored nipples.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

big0mike said:


> Anyone mix up a 1:2:1 Mold Builder:Slime:Water batch?
> 
> I just made another batch and while I may have had a problem with my last batch "coagulating" (unconfirmed) I thought it was a little thin. So, I cut the water in half. I guess we'll see... :thumbsup:


So, I mix up the new batch and pull off my old tires. There's green remnants all along the inside of the tires and BOTH tires have sealant left in them.

The problem? It was, or seemed, like straight water with a green tint.

Could all the slime/latex have solidified on the walls of the tire leaving me with just green water floating in the tire? I have to assume that this would affect my tire's ability to seal a flat.

Last time I checked a tire it seemed to be a normal viscosity but this bike has been sitting for a couple months now 

Anyone experienced this? What would've caused this? Could it be that instead of evaporating like Stan's would all the sealant part dries, like Stan's would, leaving us with just water?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

This is normal behavior. A soft brush and hose water will wipe the thin film off the inside of the tire. Then just reload and go. I have not experienced any loss of sealing capacity.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> This is normal behavior. A soft brush and hose water will wipe the thin film off the inside of the tire. Then just reload and go. I have not experienced any loss of sealing capacity.


I'm not worried about the film on the inside. I'm worried that if I take my tire off to give it a shake to see if I need a refill that I'll hear liquid and think I'm OK. If all the good stuff is evaporating and leaving me with just water inside I'll really not be OK.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

It's been pretty much the usual to have a tire not be holding pressure well during a ride - get home and pop a bead, and its just a little leftover antifreeze loose in the tire with all the latex "plated" out.

Of course, this is after a year and the tire is getting a little, uh... tired.

So - no big. 

I have been considering using a little ammonia in the mix to push the pH a little further to the liquid side. Clear ammonia cleaner is about 4% ammonia by weight, which is about what the mold builder is to start (IIRC).


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> It's been pretty much the usual to have a tire not be holding pressure well during a ride - get home and pop a bead, and its just a little leftover antifreeze loose in the tire with all the latex "plated" out.


So you're still using anti-freeze? I thought the general consensus was MB, Slime, & water. But, there are so many posts here it's hard to remember the latest...

So, what's the ratio with AF? 1:2:1:1 MB, Slime, water, AF?



wadester said:


> I have been considering using a little ammonia in the mix to push the pH a little further to the liquid side. Clear ammonia cleaner is about 4% ammonia by weight, which is about what the mold builder is to start (IIRC).


It seems to me that making it MORE liquid would be worse? But, I'm not the chemist here.  I certainly understand that at some point it could be too thick but can you explain why you'd want it thinner than the "standard" build?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

More liquid equals longer useful sealant life has been my observation, so starting out thicker equals shorter sealant life (less liquid to evaporate) and maybe less ability/slower to coat and seal the tire.

The original recipe is:
1 latex
1AF,
1 Slime
2water

The original recipe works well but the AF (EG) is cause for concern for some.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

You have to remember that the carrier fluid for Slime IS antifreeze (propylene glycol type). So no matter what recipe you're using - you've got antifreeze.


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## flexbaba (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks for the answers on my previous post.

I gave it a try on RaceKing Supersonics, using a mix of: 
1 latex mold builder,
2 Slime with the rubber chunks
2 water.

I managed to seal the front tyre, after repeatedly shaking, resting and flipping. It kept weeping through those thin (and used) sidewalls, so I decided to thicken the mix with extra latex for the rear. This speeded up the sealing process, and the weeping seemed to be less.
I had a good ride the day after, testing it on low pressure for burps with aggressive cornering. All fine.

Today I checked the bike for my next ride, and didn't hear any liquid in the rear tyre. I opened it, and found a decent sized booger. The front wheel still contains the liquid mix, but I suspect the same will happen in there and check on that later. Also, the leftover sealant separated in the jar, leaving a clear green fluid on the bottom and a milky substance on top of that.
On one of the first pages of this thread, I read about that happening when pouring antifreeze directly on latex. Not the case here, since I didn't use AF.

Sadly I can't recall the order of mixing. I think I mixed the latex and water first, before adding Slime. Not sure on that though.

Any suggestions? 
Too much latex mb I would say...

edit: The tyre I opened up looks like the pics in post #22, except for the liquid. Here it is: http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=4464393&postcount=22. That clear green water is in my mixing container.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I don't think the latex and water will mix without starting to harden the latex. Need to mix something with antifreeze with latex first (either slime or AF).


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## frankenmike (May 2, 2009)

I poured the Slime into my container(an old laundry soap bottle) first, then used half the water to slosh out the slime container, then added that. Next I added the latex into the bottle, and used the other half of the water to slosh out the latex container, then added that. Just checked my mix, and it still looks like a mint green milkshake a month later. Sealed my wheels up on the first try, too.


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## Moe's Tavern (Aug 7, 2010)

*latex question*

I bought some "liquid latex" and I'm not sure if the consistency is correct... so I just wanted to make sure before I mix up a batch of sealant..

Is the mold builder supposed to have a really thick consistency? It's similar to Vaseline. Seems too thick to me... Thanks


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

That looks a little thicker than the other brand, but probably will still work. If it thins down with slime, you will be good to go.


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## timmycee (Jul 29, 2009)

For several years I've been using 1 part MB and 3 parts Windshield washer/cleaner with the de-icer. That has sealed some big tire punctures. Even sidewall tears. Oh yeah. Don't forget plenty of pepper! I don't get as much as the other recipes, but it woks damn well.


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## mvi (Jan 15, 2004)

Anybody leaving the latex MB out?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

timmycee said:


> For several years I've been using 1 part MB and 3 parts Windshield washer/cleaner with the de-icer. That has sealed some big tire punctures. Even sidewall tears. Oh yeah. Don't forget plenty of pepper! I don't get as much as the other recipes, but it woks damn well.


On using pepper, ground (course ground if so?) or full peppercorns? I'm thinking a tablespoon of peppercorns might give some light weight serious chunkulation. Comments, experience with pepper?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

mvi said:


> Anybody leaving the latex MB out?


Latex is the MAIN ingredient? Why would you leave it out? Then you've be left with nothing but water or anti-freeze diluted Slime... ut:


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

So I set up a FireXC about two months ago, and it has never stopped weeping sealant through the sidewalls. Then earlier this week I got a nail in the tire and it wouldn't fully seal because there wasn't enough sealant left. I added some fresh sealant and the tire sealed, but then the next morning the sidewall was lined with little green dots again so I'm not sure how long my replacement sealant will last.

I'm using the same brew in a schwable and two maxxis tires, and haven't had any problems. Anyone have any tips, or is this tire just a bad one?

Just to add: pressure is 30~35psi, and the tire has had a fair number of commute/dirt miles put on it since being set up tubeless. It holds air fine, it's just that it doesn't hold the sealant.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Correct me if I am wrong guys, but I think newfangled mixture should have a larger portion of latex mold builder in it.


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## 2002maniac (Nov 17, 2008)

FYI guys, Harbor freight as 32oz bottles of tubeless slime on sale for $8.99. That's almost half the lowest price I've seen anywhere else. Don't forget to print out a 20% off coupon!

I also used a 40% off coupon on my latex from Hobby Lobby.

Tubeless on the cheap!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

newfangled said:


> So I set up a FireXC about two months ago, and it has never stopped weeping sealant through the sidewalls. Then earlier this week I got a nail in the tire and it wouldn't fully seal because there wasn't enough sealant left. I added some fresh sealant and the tire sealed, but then the next morning the sidewall was lined with little green dots again so I'm not sure how long my replacement sealant will last.
> 
> I'm using the same brew in a schwable and two maxxis tires, and haven't had any problems. Anyone have any tips, or is this tire just a bad one?


My understanding is that some tires just don't work well tubeless. The slightly used WTB Weirwolf I tried first seeped like a mother. A brand new one, with a thicker sidewall, had less issues. When I got the new bike the Specialized Eskar Control tires had NO seepage. Neither have the WTB Prowler and Dissent I have on the bike now. But, the Prowler and Dissent are both double ply downhill tires so it's unlikely to seep through them.

So, I don't think it's a specific tire rather a type of tire that has issues. Beat up tires seemed to seep a little more as well as seal difficultly. YMMV...


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

^ thanks, that's kindof what I figured. My Schwalbe and Maxxis didn't seep at all, but the sidewall of the Panaracer is always at least damp, if not actually bubbling with sealant. As long as I'm using that tire I think I'll have to start carrying a little container of sealant in my pack (which probably isn't a bad idea, anyway)


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

I think that the Panaracers have been noted on the Stans site as not compliant. I put the gorilla tape on my rims this week and once I get some more cash I will convert over to the tubless.

So the recipe that I will be looking at is as follows..
1 Part ATV Slime (with rubber preferably)
2 Parts Mold Builder
1 Part Water
Is that correct?


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## Vespasianus (Apr 9, 2008)

wadester said:


> Sealsafe by Victor - had to pull this out of netcache. Can't find an MSDS, but sounds like another latex/chunks/fibers blend:
> 
> 1. Seals:
> Victor Tire Sealant uses ceramic fibers to form a plug. When a puncture occurs, the air pressure pushes the fibers into the hole. This plug is flexible and can stretch with the tire during varying conditions such as low inflation, full load, empty load. The seal is permanent and will last the life of the tire. Victor Tire Sealants will seal any hole caused by a puncture in the tread area up to a 1/4" diameter.
> ...


Anybody have any updates with this stuff? I have been using it with OK results - seems to work fine but make the tires "heavy".


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

gregnash said:


> So the recipe that I will be looking at is as follows..
> 1 Part ATV Slime (with rubber preferably)
> 2 Parts Mold Builder
> 1 Part Water
> Is that correct?


I believe the "official" recipe is one of two flavors:

1 part Mold Builder
2 part Slime
2 part water

or

1 part Mold Builder
2 part Slime
1 part water
1 part antifreeze

I thought the consensus was that Slime already has antifreeze in it so doubling up on the antifreeze is unnecessary but I know some people still use it. I've not tried it but had good luck with 1:2:2.


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## jonw9 (Jun 29, 2009)

I haven't followed the whole thread, but I have some leftover RV antifreeze from winterizing my old boat.

Can the RV stuff be used in place of the standard PG? It is supposed to be non-corrosive for aluminum engines. Is there a definite draw back?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I think if you read around page 15 or so, some decided that RV antifreeze was better. I used it last time and liked the mix better.

I used :

1 part Mold Builder
2 part Slime
1 part water
1 part RV antifreeze

It is a lighter shade of green and seems to last at least as long so far (and I am thinking longer) and seems to seal faster too.


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## blatantSS (Oct 29, 2005)

*harbor freight coupon*

any of you have a current link for that harbor freight 20% off coupon? It would be greatly appreciated.

thx


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I used gorilla tape. I ordered the 1 inch wide stuff but they sent me the 2 inch stuff. In retrospect I am glad they did. It is very easy to tear it to exactly the width you want.
I took off a short piece and laid it inside my wheel channel. I measured all the way to the top section of the rim and used that width. I wanted to fill the whole channel of the rim to keep the layer seamless, so the tire seats up against the gorilla tape.

I used a 929 shraeder valve setup and it is solid as a rock. With the nut you can tension it as much as you want and it is easy to pump up with a compressor and of course easy to add the secret sauce without having to break the tire bead off the rim.

I made up my own sauce with a tube of latex caulk, generic window cleaner and slime for tubes (which is what I had laying around).

Bottom line so far. Seals well, pumps up well and the shraeder valve setup is the bomb.

I went tubeless for a while with the stan's rim strips, yellow tape and sealant. I always had trouble with it even with my stans rims, so I went back to tubes.

The gorrilla tape, shraeder valves and homemade brew are in my opinion much superior to the stans setup. 

Narrow rims are not so friendly to the 929 shraeder valves. With my narrow velocity rims I had to use the stans presta valves along with gorilla tape. I hate presta valve removable cores. Many times I unscrew the presta valve and the whole innards come out and I lose all my air. A real bummer on the trail! Rims of flow width and up will work with the 929 shraeder valve.

My buddy came over and he had a stans conversion on his standard rim bike. He kept losing air and went back to tubes a couple of times. I set him up with the shraeder valve, gorilla tape and secret sauce. Aired up right away and he loves it.


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## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

Wow, helluva thread -- thanks for all the info and insights!

I'm a firm believer in tubeless, and have been running it on two 29ers, both with Arches, Stan's yellow tape and Stan's valves for about 3 years. I started with straight-up Stan's goo, then moved to a 50/50 Stans+auto Slime, based on this thread. I get pretty good sealing (only two issues that wouldn't seal on the trail -- once with a huge puncture, and once with dried sealant and worn sidewall), but have had the typical booger balls and sidewall weeping. I run Crossmarks and Ikons as rears, and they weep way more than the WW2.55s I run as fronts. Honestly, I don't mind the weeiping -- I think the neon green ooze looks cool and is a good indicator that there's still liquid in the tire...

Questions:

1) What's the consensus on adding dryer lint to a mix to help sealing and to absorb some of the PG/EG in the antifreeze or Slime? It seems like a brilliant, easy, lightweight, free addition.
2) How come no one ever responded to the guy who used a turkey injector to pierce his tire to test for remaining sealant? Pretty ballsy procedure 

Thx!


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Well what is your response to the turkey baster guy? As far as dryer lint, I think it would be worse than glitter which was a promising idea at first, but I think I can say the consensus is that it causes more boogers. I have often wanted to take the rubber whiskers that I cut off certain brands of tires and put those in the mix. I just never get around to saving them.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I tried dryer lint. The fibers are too short to work well. They really "gel" the mix, which doesn't help either.


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

badhknese86 said:


> Does anyone know if this will work when injected into tubes?


YES...I've had WSS tubes seal for over a year (I don't run tubes myself but have used the solution in friends tubes many a time).


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## bikerfish (Feb 3, 2004)

CCSS said:


> Questions:
> 
> 1) What's the consensus on adding dryer lint to a mix to help sealing and to absorb some of the PG/EG in the antifreeze or Slime? It seems like a brilliant, easy, lightweight, free addition.
> 2) How come no one ever responded to the guy who used a turkey injector to pierce his tire to test for remaining sealant? Pretty ballsy procedure
> ...


Question #2: I kinda thought that would get noticed too...oh well. I'm still very happy with my injector method. If you have any questions about it let me know.


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## dtheo (Sep 18, 2005)

I agree that some older tires do seems to have more problems, but I think it may be the tire type as well. I have not had any luck with panaracer rampages - just way to pourous. Michelins seal well. maxxis and wtb are hit or miss.

The big problem is the sidewall weeping. I filled an Ardent and it never held more than overnight. After 1 week, I opened it to put in a tube and all the sealant was gone.

Any ideas now what - should I try a straight latex mix?

DT



big0mike said:


> My understanding is that some tires just don't work well tubeless. The slightly used WTB Weirwolf I tried first seeped like a mother. A brand new one, with a thicker sidewall, had less issues. When I got the new bike the Specialized Eskar Control tires had NO seepage. Neither have the WTB Prowler and Dissent I have on the bike now. But, the Prowler and Dissent are both double ply downhill tires so it's unlikely to seep through them.
> 
> So, I don't think it's a specific tire rather a type of tire that has issues. Beat up tires seemed to seep a little more as well as seal difficultly. YMMV...


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

dtheo said:


> The big problem is the sidewall weeping. I filled an Ardent and it never held more than overnight. After 1 week, I opened it to put in a tube and all the sealant was gone.
> 
> Any ideas now what - should I try a straight latex mix?


That's weird. I've got two ardents, and when I was setting them up there were barely any green pin-pricks, and I think I only had to flip them twice to seal. After that they haven't wept at all. Mix was 1 latex, 1.5 slime, ~2 water (same as what I used in the weepy FireXC)


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## SparxFlyer (Dec 29, 2010)

*Further Refinements and Technique Details*

So I took the plunge and went tubeless Friday night.

I used the 1 latex, 2 ATV Slime, 2 RV Waterline Antifreeze recipe (and adding them in that order), using a tuna can as my measuring device and fitting the resulting mix into a 1 litre (or quart) pickle jar. There's more than half of each ingredient left in the original container.

The tires are standard Maxxis Ignitor 2.1 front and Crossmark 2.1 rear on black Mavic TN-719 (29") rims. Each rim had had the Stan's Yellow Tape applied at least a week earlier (while repairing thorn punctures to the tubes) after removing the original rim tape and cleaning with brake cleaner. Tubes and tires were then reinstalled (and ridden!).

To make the final jump was relatively painless. The tires had been cleaned after the last ride so only needed to be stripped off on one side to remove the inner tube and install a Stan's Presta valve with removable core. It took only one try to get the Crossmark to reseat on the rim using a cheap ($50 on sale!) 2 gallon air compressor with an open nozzle that fit inside the valve stem (with no core). The Ignitor took 2 attempts, and what made the difference was going around the tire pressing in on the middle to push the tire bead towards the rim. After that it inflated no problem.

At this point I used an "ear irrigation bulb" to inject the brew into the tire (noted earlier in this thread). In my case the bulb held 0.6 fluid ounces so I ended up using 6 bulbs worth or 3.6 fl oz for each tire, after observing that 4 did not seem to be enough for the Crossmark. I used a small amount of air to clean the inside of the valve then reinstalled the core and a Schraeder adaptor, (so I could use the same nozzle) and re-inflated the tire to somewhere around 40 to 45 psi pressure. Final step was the standard shake and rotate.

There was some air and sealant escaping around the rim, mostly close to the valve and it seemed to bubble and foam for some time. It was because I couldn't hear any liquid sealant in the Crossmark that I went to using 6 bulbs worth of brew. Unlike other reports I had no seepage through the sidewall (or where ever that thorn had punctured!) BTW, there's about 60% of the original batch left in the jar, so plenty for future use or sharing!

I used no water or soap in the remount process and feel two things helped make it work.
1. The wheel was always suspended after the initial inflation so the bead stayed up against the rim.
2. I did do some shaking after reinstalling the core but before re-pressuring the tire. This likely allowed a bit of the mixture up against the bead, providing lubrication and eventually sealing, too.

The tires held 40 psi air pressure overnight so for my ride I reduced them both down to 30 psi then tackled the rockiest area locally (Hilton Falls, Ontario) on my Tallboy. No burps or other issues were encountered and I just checked the pressures again and am still at 30 psi.

Next ride I'll try 25 / 28 psi and see how they feel in less rocks. I'm likely 190 lbs all kitted up with a full water bladder, so we'll see how it goes and how long it lasts in my tires.

Thanks to those who've posted here over the years as the site has given me the confidence to try lightweight tubeless with home-brewed sealant and other maintenance mods, too!

Stephen

One final detail... Both tires were slightly heavier (20 or so grams) than the average tire of their type.


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## CCSS (Apr 6, 2004)

Cool, thanks for the dryer lint update. I'll let you you know if I find an interesting substitute.


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## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

mvi said:


> Anybody leaving the latex MB out?


i'm using straight slime(tubeless) on the recommendation of riding buddies who've used it for a few years and been thrilled with it. It definitely works, though its certainly possible the more complicated brews have a slight edge.

We aim to use 2-3 oz per tire.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

PretendGentleman said:


> i'm using straight slime(tubeless) on the recommendation of riding buddies who've used it for a few years and been thrilled with it. It definitely works, though its certainly possible the more complicated brews have a slight edge.
> 
> We aim to use 2-3 oz per tire.


I tried straight Slime (tubeless) in standard tires and lost air over the course of 24 hours on UST rims. I mixed up the water/Slime/MB recipe and they haven't lost air over two weeks now. This could be due to the consistency being thinner than the straight slime, with the straight slime I had areas that weren't coated.
So if you're going to try it without MB, I'd add a bit of water. Maybe 5 to 1 slime/water mix.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

I will be converting to tubeless soon. I ended up doing the Gorilla tape recently instead of using a rim strip and randomly got a flat. Yesterday I replaced the flat and found that my tape installation was a complete fail. 
My question is, do you put tape just in the center channel or all the way up to the side wall of the rim? Most all the demos/videos I find say to make the tape 1" wide and center it in the rim. I did that but the tape rolled and bunched up in number placed even after I had spent 30 minutes pressing everything down. What did I do wrong? When reinstalling the tire yesterday I took everything out, reapplied the tape just so that it was slightly bigger than the center channel and did the same regimen of pressing everything down. The culprit tire is a wire bead tire so I am sure that plays a role in it. But when I convert fully to ghetto I want to make sure it lasts.

Also found this, my wife is a hairstylist and I found that I think one of her color application bottles will work perfectly for injecting the brew.. Here is a pic of one, total it can hold 8oz of fluid and it meant for mixing and applying color. You can find them at your general beauty supply store for only a few bucks.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

gregnash said:


> My question is, do you put tape just in the center channel or all the way up to the side wall of the rim? Most all the demos/videos I find say to make the tape 1" wide and center it in the rim. I did that but the tape rolled and bunched up in number placed even after I had spent 30 minutes pressing everything down.


I've found making certain the rim channel is clean is the key. I remove any labels, then use some steel wool to just rough the surface, then use rubbing alcohol or acetone to clean. Lay the tape in and press.

Then I install a tire with tube, inflate to 40 psi and set the tire in the sun for a few hours before you remove the tube and add sealant. It is best to make sure the tape is sealed and no fluid gets under the tape, worth a little more time at the start.


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## SparxFlyer (Dec 29, 2010)

*Maybe not steel wool...*



slocaus said:


> I've found making certain the rim channel is clean is the key. I remove any labels, then use some steel wool to just rough the surface, then use rubbing alcohol or acetone to clean. Lay the tape in and press.
> 
> Then I install a tire with tube, inflate to 40 psi and set the tire in the sun for a few hours before you remove the tube and add sealant. It is best to make sure the tape is sealed and no fluid gets under the tape, worth a little more time at the start.


Fully agree with everything except the steel wool... given the ammonia in the latex (and Slime or Stan's) can attack aluminum I wouldn't risk removing any paint or anodizing from the rim. A lint-free rag will work just fine if the cleaning fluid is used liberally.

FYI, I used Stan's yellow tape and have had no issues. Once round each rim + 6 inches each side of the valve hole. One roll should do 4 29'er rims or 5 26" rims. Cost was on the the order of $6 at my LBS. I don't think that's a lot more than the Gorilla tape. Just make sure to put it with lots of tension (to stretch it). Of course, there is a Youtube video on this.

Good luck!


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## mountaindavis (Jun 18, 2010)

For my wife's tires, I used Gorila Tape, one wrap with overlap at valve. I just cleaned it and then wiped the rim down with rubbing alcohol and it has worked great. On my bike, I'm using Duster rims and Bontrager's TLR Rim Strips, which are all plastic and negate and of the aluminum/ammonia degradation, but I fully agree not to use anything that would scratch the finish such as steel wool. Just to be safe. I also would recommend leaving the rim/tape in the sun to get some heat in them. Cold tape, in particular, never seems to be tacky enough nor does it seem to cure correctly. Normal or slightly elevated temperature always seems to work well for me. I doubt I would put tape on a hot rim that has been in the sun--mainly because the tape gets gooey/slides on the rim more and I just feel it won't cure as well either. Just warm seems to be the charm for me.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Guys, I stated *LIGHTLY* with the steel wool; it takes off any adhesive left over from stickers or things like that. I am not scrubbing for 12 hours to remove anodization, in fact, I doubt you could remove any anodizing with steel wool alone. Anodizing increase hardness of aluminum, why do you think they use it?!?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slocaus said:


> Anodizing increase hardness of aluminum, why do you think they use it?!?


To make it pretty colors? :thumbsup:


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

big0mike said:


> To make it pretty colors? :thumbsup:


Colors came later, corrosion resistance and hardness were the initial uses.

*History*



> Anodizing was first used on an industrial scale in 1923 to protect Duralumin seaplane parts from corrosion. This early chromic acid-based process was called the Bengough-Stuart process and was documented in British defence specification DEF STAN 03-24/3. It is still used today despite its legacy requirements for a complicated voltage cycle now known to be unnecessary. Variations of this process soon evolved, and the first sulfuric acid anodizing process was patented by Gower and O'Brien in 1927. Sulfuric acid soon became and remains the most common anodizing electrolyte.[1]
> 
> Oxalic acid anodizing was first patented in Japan in 1923 and later widely used in Germany, particularly for architectural applications. Anodized aluminium extrusion was a popular architectural material in the 1960s and 1970s, but has since been displaced by cheaper plastics and powdercoating.[2] The phosphoric acid processes are the most recent major development, so far only used as pretreatments for adhesives or organic paints.[1] A wide variety of proprietary and increasingly complex variations of all these anodizing processes continue to be developed by industry, so the growing trend in military and industrial standards is to classify by coating properties rather than by process chemistry.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Ok maybe that was just the problem, I hadn't actually ridden on it to make sure everything was pressed in there. I did insert a tube and pump to 50psi to seat the beads and then moved on to normal PSI. I will probably ride like this for a short while and then convert fully later.


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## Moe's Tavern (Aug 7, 2010)

richwolf said:


> I used a 929 shraeder valve setup and it is solid as a rock..


Hey Rich, do you mean 949? If so, right on! Glad someone else sees the awesomeness:thumbsup:

For others:


Moe's Tavern said:


> $4.25 ea, shipped
> confirmed 8g w/alu cap
> large rubber washer
> schrader dominance
> ...


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Saw one of the guys post a page or two back about this.. 
Found at my local Harbor Freight for a whopping $4.97 for the small and $9.97 for the large on clearance. Small is 16oz by the bottle and it seems pretty liquidie?! Wonder if it would work all by its lonesome?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

gregnash said:


> Saw one of the guys post a page or two back about this..
> Found at my local Harbor Freight for a whopping $4.97 for the small and $9.97 for the large on clearance. Small is 16oz by the bottle and it seems pretty liquidie?! Wonder if it would work all by its lonesome?


It lacks the latex that seals the porous sidewalls of non tubeless tires. That is what Stans does, and the Slime Pro added latex to do the same thing. The WSS brew uses mold builder to do the same thing. If you have UST rims and tires, then the latex is not necessary, otherwise, it is needed.

You can use that as an ingredient in the WSS brew though.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Ok that is what I kinda figured. Stopped at a local hobby store and they had the stuff but was a pretty big tub for $23. Is that the smallest it comes in? It was the actual Mold Builder brand or whatever. I have a Michaels/Craft Market here in town, do you think they would have smaller size of the mold builder?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

gregnash said:


> Ok that is what I kinda figured. Stopped at a local hobby store and they had the stuff but was a pretty big tub for $23. Is that the smallest it comes in? It was the actual Mold Builder brand or whatever. I have a Michaels/Craft Market here in town, do you think they would have smaller size of the mold builder?


The Mold Builder I bought is 16 oz. I had to order from Hobby Lobby, since the two hobby / craft stores (one being a Michaels) here in central coastal CA did not have it. Word in this thread is that it will last a long time. I am just going to use the whole thing and make about 48 oz total WSS this time, should give me a years worth with 8 wheels, two to three tire changes with the seasons, and some to share with friends.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Ok cool thanks. I will have to stop by the local store and see if they have it in stock in the small 16oz tub. Once I get that then I can do the conversion. So 
1 part Water
2 parts Slime
2 parts Mold Builder
Each tire should take about 4oz....


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

gregnash said:


> Ok cool thanks. I will have to stop by the local store and see if they have it in stock in the small 16oz tub. Once I get that then I can do the conversion. So
> 1 part Water
> 2 parts Slime
> 2 parts Mold Builder
> Each tire should take about 4oz....


Although I guess there are no RULES to making your own you've got it semi-backwards:

1 MB
2 Slime
2 Water

I guess more MB can't hurt but with less water it'll be pretty thick.

YMMV...


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## Porschefan (Jan 14, 2011)

I'm about ready to take the plunge and try this and am gathering materials.

I went to the local Hobby Lobby today and they had a small tub of "Mold Maker" for $13, but it really looked more like clay or silly putty. *Is this the right stuff?* It seems very thick/dense, although maybe with liquid it breaks down? Or do I need something else.

I have a 16 oz bottle of Slime Pro ($7.50) and the Gorilla tape. Any ideas where I can get removable-core Presta valves? I see Stan's has them for $16/pair (!!) I think it would be cheaper to buy tubes with them and cut them out.

I'm hoping that the home brew works a lot better than Stan's---'cause it's ending up to be more expensive! (Probably not if you figure out quantities....)

TIA.


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## SparxFlyer (Dec 29, 2010)

FYI, current theory is that using an RV / marine plumbing antifreeze rather than water will make the stuff last longer as a liquid in your tires in hot / cold climates.

If you don't want to use all your supplies in one batch, then tuna cans make a useful measuring device and 5 of them leave a bit of room in a 1 litre / 1 quart pickle jar.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

For the removeable core valves I would pick up a set of Q-Tubes tubes from REI, Scheels or multiple places online. Usually a couple bucks for the tubes and they have removeable cores (especially the red box).


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## Porschefan (Jan 14, 2011)

*Slime Pro Tubeless Bicycle vs. Slime Pro*

OK.... what the difference (except for $6.99 vs. $18.99)???

Slime Pro Tubeless Bicycle:

http://www.slime.com/product/781/Slime-Pro-Tubeless-Sealant--16-oz.html

Slime Tire Sealant:

http://www.slime.com/product/781/Slime-Pro-Tubeless-Sealant--16-oz.html

The bottle I bought @ Wal-Mart says "Slime Pro" and has the same description of "Fibro-Seal technology" (!!). Is the bike-specific stuff just another example of marketing hype?

And since the entire point of this exercise is to get something that seals as well as Stan's, but lasts longer, does anyone have any data on just using the Slime Bicycle product by itself?


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Ok I guess I will be returning tomorrow... I just now noticed the "produced with 100% acrylic polymer" line on the packaging. I will ask the ladies there if they have any LATEX mold builder paste. If not then guess I will need to head to Reno.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Ok stopped by my local Craft Market today and picked up this. Think this is comparable to the mold builder, not the "actual" brand though.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

SparxFlyer said:


> FYI, current theory is that using an RV / marine plumbing antifreeze rather than water will make the stuff last longer as a liquid in your tires in hot / cold climates.
> 
> If you don't want to use all your supplies in one batch, then tuna cans make a useful measuring device and 5 of them leave a bit of room in a 1 litre / 1 quart pickle jar.


So do I replace the water with the Anti-Freeze or add it to the mixture as a second part??


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## SparxFlyer (Dec 29, 2010)

Greg,

Just make sure the "Molding Paste" shown above is actually latex. The "Mold Builder" actually says "Liquid Latex" right under the name of the product and has the following ingredients:
Ammonia, 100% Natural Latex, Water

If not I wouldn't use it and would return it for a refund. (Unless you're into experimenting!)

And yes, use the RV Plumbing Antifreeze as a replacement for water in the recipe. (It's mostly water anyhow.)


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

That is an acrylic gel/paste, not latex mold builder. Return it...


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## Porschefan (Jan 14, 2011)

gregnash said:


> Ok stopped by my local Craft Market today and picked up this. Think this is comparable to the mold builder, not the "actual" brand though.


GregNash,

Thanks. The stuff that the local Hobby Lobby has is *definitely* some kind clay-ish substance and not liquid. Found this on Amazon--looks to be the proper stuff, but at $30! Other online sources have 16 oz. packs for less.

https://www.amazon.com/Environmental-Technology-32-Ounce-Casting-Builder/dp/B001EU9KXS

Also thanks for the tip on Q-Tubes. When I saw the packaging online, I recognized them as the generic tubes that one of the LBS's here in ABQ (The Kickstand) sells. I bought two of them and had them put Stan's in them, since the Slimed tubes weren't sealing any goat head punctures. Haven't ridden them enough to see if that helps.

Next I'm going to a marine/rv place here (there are TONS of them for some reason) and see about the marine anti-freeze stuff.

This is kind of "fun," but I am starting to question whether it's really worth it. LBS will convert two tires to ghetto tubeless, filled with Stan's for $40.00. But I'm kvetching.... I understand the point is that the home brew is supposed to be better and last longer than Stan's.....and you can't discount the fun factor.


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## ia performance (Apr 22, 2011)

After reading through it looks like there are a few ways to to seal up the tires. I'm slightly bummed that I just purchased a new bottle of Stans. The only negative that I have run into with STans is that it dries up pretty quickly in the dry desert. Next time around I'll try a mtbr brew and post the results.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Porschefan said:


> GregNash,
> 
> Thanks. The stuff that the local Hobby Lobby has is *definitely* some kind clay-ish substance and not liquid. Found this on Amazon--looks to be the proper stuff, but at $30! Other online sources have 16 oz. packs for less.


http://shop.hobbylobby.com/products/mold-builder-liquid-latex-30452/

$14.99 - There is also a 40% off code to the upper right!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Porschefan said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Environmental-Technology-32-Ounce-Casting-Builder/dp/B001EU9KXS


You can make a BIIIIIIG batch from that can!


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## richwolf (Dec 8, 2004)

I used a tube of latex caulking. Available just about anywhere.
I had some leakage on my last gorilla tape setup around the bead, so I started over. I took off the tire and scrubbed around the bead with a scotch pad to get all the boogers off. I then redid the gorilla tape but I used the whole width of the tape, much like the split tube method. I rolled the tape over the edge of the rim onto the sides. I mounted up the tire and then tore off the extra. The nice thing with the gorilla tape is that you can tear it off easy while with the split tube method you have to carefully cut around with an exacto knife and I was always worried about putting a slice into the sidewall.
I have now done 5 tires with my homebrew and gorilla tape and 949 shraeder valve stems and they are holding great. 2 rims are stans, 2 are narrow velocity rims and one is a sun 26er rim.
I really think the main key to tubeless is having a seamless interface between the tire bead and the rim. That is why I overlapped the gorilla tape past the top edge of the rim.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Alright found the actual Mold Builder Latex at a local Michael's craft (forgot we had one in town). $16.99 for 16oz ain't bad. Will have to mix up the brew later.
So:
1 part MB
2 parts RV/Marine Antifreeze or Water
2 parts Slime (with rubber chunks preferably)

Thinking I am going to mix it in that hair color application bottle I showed earlier.. Do about 1.5oz as a single part, would give me roughly 7.5oz which should be enough for two tires. With this be able to mix by purely shaking the bottle or do I need to get a stick in there and stir the brew?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

gregnash said:


> With this be able to mix by purely shaking the bottle or do I need to get a stick in there and stir the brew?


My advise is a big open mouthed jar, a paint stir stick and a couple beers - it takes awhile to get the thick mold builder mixed into the Slime. Add water / antifreeze after you get a smooth paste or you will get big ole lumps that are almost impossible to break down. Like a said, a _couple_ beers.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

LOL... Ok thanks for the advice slocaus. Probably would have needed quite a few beers trying it my way.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

gregnash said:


> Thinking I am going to mix it in that hair color application bottle I showed earlier...


I don't think it's been mentioned recently, but once the container of Mold Builder has been opened the Mold Builder will start to harden. So the general recommendation is to use it all at once to make one big ~80oz batch.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

newfangled said:


> I don't think it's been mentioned recently, but once the container of Mold Builder has been opened the Mold Builder will start to harden. So the general recommendation is to use it all at once to make one big ~80oz batch.


I kinda thought that might be the case but I've still got the remainder of my first batch on the shelf waiting to be used. Don't know why I didn't add it to my second batch but I open it once in a while to see if it's solid and it's still as soft as can be. I'm sure with a lot of things, like wallboard paste, you just can't leave it open to the air.

But, even if it saves, I agree that you should just make one big batch at once. Why dick around with having to make new batches all the time?


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## RagerXS (Jul 10, 2006)

*Which Slime?*

I'm going with the latest version of the recipe and wondering which Slime to use, the tube or tire version? The tube version has smaller rubber bits but otherwise they appear equal. I suppose with 2 parts slime in the mix one could choose to use one part of each but I wonder if that is more trouble than it's worth...

One more thing, for those that are replacing water in the recipe with anti-freeze, I assume you are using the 'pre-mixed' AF that is 50-50 with water? If so, one could also do one part water and one part straight AF.

Fred


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

RagerXS said:


> I'm going with the latest version of the recipe and wondering which Slime to use, the tube or tire version? The tube version has smaller rubber bits but otherwise they appear equal. I suppose with 2 parts slime in the mix one could choose to use one part of each but I wonder if that is more trouble than it's worth...
> 
> One more thing, for those that are replacing water in the recipe with anti-freeze, I assume you are using the 'pre-mixed' AF that is 50-50 with water? If so, one could also do one part water and one part straight AF.
> 
> Fred


1- 16 oz mold builder latex
1- 16 oz tubeless slime
1- 16 oz cheap (green, EG, straight) antifreeze
2- 16 oz water

OR

1- 16 oz mold builder latex
2- 16 oz tubeless slime
2 16 oz water

OR

1- 16 oz mold builder latex
1- 16 oz tubeless slime
3- 16 oz pre-mixed RV antifreeze

Mix the whole batch in a container of at least 80 oz, it will last for at least 2 (going on 3) years. Those clear large OJ containers are nice because you can see that everything is mixed when you shake it. Weighs about 80g per 2 oz dose. Type of slime is not critical, btw.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

slocaus said:


> My advise is a big open mouthed jar, a paint stir stick and a couple beers - it takes awhile to get the thick mold builder mixed into the Slime. Add water / antifreeze after you get a smooth paste or you will get big ole lumps that are almost impossible to break down. Like a said, a _couple_ beers.


Vlasic and some other pickles come in 80oz wide mouth glass jars -








Only problem is eating your way thru 80 oz of pickles.

Someone was using a plastic pitcher with a pour lid that was available in 4 qt or 3 qt - except I could never find the 3 qt size in less than case quantity. Looks white, but is actually translucent body:









Hey! On Ebay for $14. https://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Rubbermaid...d=110678742587&ps=63&clkid=532152375658400303


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## minh (May 23, 2004)

I just reused the antifreeze jug (shake to mix):


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

I didn't have anything that was big enough (aside from using the wife's cooking utensils) to hold the antifreeze so found a "Snapware" 2.6L jug at Raley's for $6. Should do the trick. Happened to be by a shop that had the Q-Tubes so picked up a couple. Looks like I might be going tubeless this weekend! Going to definitely do the mixing tomorrow, will ride tomorrow and maybe just plan for a couple days of downtime while the tires setup.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Ok so I made the concoction this morning and have to say that it is seriously watery?
Did the 16oz MB, 16oz Slime, 48oz RV Antifreeze in an 88oz container.. Should it be pretty watery? I am assuming yes.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

gregnash said:


> Ok so I made the concoction this morning and have to say that it is seriously watery?
> Did the 16oz MB, 16oz Slime, 48oz RV Antifreeze in an 88oz container.. Should it be pretty watery? I am assuming yes.


:thumbsup:


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## GatorB (Jan 9, 2010)

Has anyone ever tried using radiator stop leak like Bar's Leaks powder in their mix. Just wondering.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

It might or might not help, doubt it would help much, but it would certainly increase the cost.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

GatorB said:


> Has anyone ever tried using radiator stop leak like Bar's Leaks powder in their mix. Just wondering.


Barsleaks is designed to fill cracks in metal. The fibers and chunks in Slime are designed to fill cuts in tubeless tires. Do the math. Or try it, but you may find that the sealant works well and you would prolly not ever know if it worked or not unless you replaced all the Slime with barsleaks. I guess you could set up 2 tires, one with the slime formula and one with barsleaks formula and cut the tires to observe how well each one works. Or not. 

One of the problems with experimenting is that it takes years to accumulate much data. The wss/oss versions work very well, so much so that I rarely add sealant during the life of the tire unless I cut a sidewall or just decide to try a different tire. The only real problem I have had is that the sealant will hide a 2mm sidewall cut until I am 15 minutes into a ride, at which point the flexing finally breaks the seal and I lose a micro puff of air on each revolution.


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## GatorB (Jan 9, 2010)

I was thinking of adding it to the slime/latex/water mix in place of the glitter. I have a bottle of it sitting on my work bench that I kept in my Jeep. I was just wondering if it has been tired or not. This stuff looks like a granulated powder.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

We're over glitter. Glitter has been falsified. 

The formulas work well as is.


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## FreeGravey (Nov 10, 2010)

at first i thought this thread was a joke but you guys are serious.... reminds me of the people over at nasioc (subaru forum) that think they know more then multi garillion dollar oil companies and like to make oil cocktails. ^^


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## GatorB (Jan 9, 2010)

Oh, got it. Should have read the whole thread. Thanks


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

FreeGravey said:


> at first i thought this thread was a joke but you guys are serious.... reminds me of the people over at nasioc (subaru forum) that think they know more then multi garillion dollar oil companies and like to make oil cocktails. ^^


We don't think we know more than anyone. We like experimenting and looking for alternative ways to do things, which tend to have either or both of the side effects of being BETTER and CHEAPER than commercially available solutions.


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## Gulf of Texas (May 17, 2010)

I thought so too, that the Slime bought from AutoZone is thicker than the slime sold for wheelbarrows/bicycles in Walmart TLE. 

I got a big (32oz) jug of Slime from Autozone for $9.99. I am using it in my pickup truck tires (highway tires). I drive slow anyway (50-60). After that, they do cause vibration as the product details announce. 

I am interested in the homebrew recipes. Thanks for all the tips.


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## flega (May 23, 2009)

*joe'S selalant?*

Hi,
I'm new at this forum but not new in tubeless :thumbsup:
I have Focus Lost Lagoon with Rodi rims 622x19 with WTB MutanoRaptor 700c x 44 on it.
I keep existing rim tape and add 26" inner tube which I have cut on rim edge and than mount a tire. I use Joe's sealant for two years. Every year I put some fresh sealant in tyres and so far there was non balls of rubber in tyre. Remove&put tyres for a few times and mounting was easy, seal everything (includes beads) in second. Repuming air every few weeks. Here is moderate climate, +40 to -20. I have tested tyres in Stan's way - punch them with a screwdriver, everytime sealant work instantly. 
But, I buy ATM Slime and read all this thread and now I don't know what to do 
It seems that Slime need a latex to work right but why don't use Joe's sealant only? I't also seems that sealant can't evaporate if there is no holes in tyre in where inner air could escape (along with water and ammonia vapours). Is anybody use glycerin instead of antifreeze? glycerin can hold very large ammount of water and it is nontoxic.
Sorry for so many questions, but there is so many questions in my head ut:


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

flega said:


> Hi,
> I'm new at this forum but not new in tubeless :thumbsup:
> I have Focus Lost Lagoon with Rodi rims 622x19 with WTB MutanoRaptor 700c x 44 on it.
> I keep existing rim tape and add 26" inner tube which I have cut on rim edge and than mount a tire. I use Joe's sealant for two years. Every year I put some fresh sealant in tyres and so far there was non balls of rubber in tyre. Remove&put tyres for a few times and mounting was easy, seal everything (includes beads) in second. Repuming air every few weeks. Here is moderate climate, +40 to -20. I have tested tyres in Stan's way - punch them with a screwdriver, everytime sealant work instantly.
> ...


Don't know Joe's sealant. Link? Hard to advise w/o knowledge. Latex seems to be the key ingredient for a good seal.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

flega said:


> I use Joe's sealant for two years. Every year I put some fresh sealant in tyres and so far there was non balls of rubber in tyre. ... I have tested tyres in Stan's way - punch them with a screwdriver, everytime sealant work instantly.
> But, I buy ATM Slime and read all this thread and now I don't know what to do
> It seems that Slime need a latex to work right but why don't use Joe's sealant only?


Most of the Slimes don't have latex. I don't know if straight slime will work as a tubeless sealant but if you just wanna use Slime you'd probably be best off getting Slime Pro which is their answer to Stan's. It's got the latex in it.


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## Midle Age Warrior (Nov 13, 2006)

*Ghetto tubless valve problem*

Hy folks

After read all this thread I decided to try my self my reasons are the cost and how long the mix survived. I do not live in the states and here the cost of the stan products is very high and due to the fact we have about 90 degree all year around the stan mix dries up fast and the money evaporates whit it.
I am using the gorilla tape method and secret sauce version 1 with cheap antyfreez in order to prolong the live of the mix under hight temps, the rims are WTB Speeddisc.
My problem is I can not stop the air loss at the valve, I taped over the valve with not success at all, the rim is seal also the tire, if I make a hole in the tire it seals too so I think it is not the mix it self, what I doing wrong ? :madman:


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Midle Age Warrior said:


> I am using the gorilla tape method and secret sauce version 1 with cheap antyfreez in order to prolong the live of the mix under hight temps... My problem is I can not stop the air loss at the valve, I taped over the valve with not success at all, the rim is seal also the tire, if I make a hole in the tire it seals too so I think it is not the mix it self, what I doing wrong ? :madman:


I assume it's not leaking from the valve itself and, rather, from the joint between valve and rim?

You could have a bad valve. Possibly, the rim is making it difficult. I've seen some that are so narrow you can barely get the valve with it's round rubber base into the channel. If it's not seating completely against the rim like that you may not find anything to seal it.

I know with my second attempt I took the round rubber base of the Stan's valve and clipped opposing edges of the round base so it was more rectangular instead of round. That helped it fit into the rim channel. But, I don't know if that would've been an issue, though, 'cause I did that without even trying to see if they'd work completely round.

People with more than two sets of tubeless tires under their belts may provide more useful info...


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## flega (May 23, 2009)

wadester said:


> Don't know Joe's sealant. Link? Hard to advise w/o knowledge. Latex seems to be the key ingredient for a good seal.


.noflats.com

it has latex, it smells on ammoniac very strong. and residue on inner side of tire is white and gum, like latex gloves. 
Joe sealant also have some small white pieces in it, I think that is grind rubber. Anyway it works for year at high and low temps and seals puncture and dont coagulate inside tire.


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## Porschefan (Jan 14, 2011)

flega said:


> .noflats.com
> 
> it has latex, it smells on ammoniac very strong. and residue on inner side of tire is white and gum, like latex gloves.
> Joe sealant also have some small white pieces in it, I think that is grind rubber. Anyway it works for year at high and low temps and seals puncture and dont coagulate inside tire.


No USA distributor and "no longer available" at Chain Reaction (UK mail order house). Sounds interesting.

I'd be totally willing to forgo the home brew experience if a readily-available product would provide equal or better protection than Stan's, or Slime Pro and not dry up.

Does anyone have experience using "straight" Slime Pro (the one with latex) as compared to Stan's? Does it remain liquid longer?

I still haven't converted to tubeless. I have my _tubes_ filled with straight Stan's right now, and so far it has worked in sealing 3 goat head punctures! I pulled one of them out on the trail and watched the Stan's ooze out and seal up.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Sawdust.

How would that work to add "chunks", plugs, fibers, etc...?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

It would almost certainly cause little balls of sawdust. Basically, probably the same as glitter but worse. But we encourage you to try it and let us know how it turns out.


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## HenryK (Oct 21, 2010)

*1st ghetto tubeless*



bsieb said:


> 1- 16 oz mold builder latex
> 1- 16 oz tubeless slime
> 1- 16 oz cheap (green, EG, straight) antifreeze
> 2- 16 oz water
> ...


I'm about to start my first try at this, is one of the above preferable to another, or it doesn't matter.

And are the better option or are these the current standard.

Thanks


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

The two MAIN recipes:

1:2:2
Latex, Slime, Water

1:2:1:1
Latex, Slime, Water, Antifreeze


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I like 1:2:2
Latex, Slime, RV antifreeze


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I'm still using the original (1st) formula and like it very much. I don't see the necessity of using more $ of slime, might try rv antifreeze mix when my jug of cheap green EG antifreeze is gone in 4 more years. A jug of mix lasts me at least 2 years with 3 sets of tubeless wheels and generosity to friends.


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## wvmtb (Jan 16, 2004)

I've been using Stans forever now and have thought about the home brew thinking it would be cheaper. But after doing the math and spot reading some messages in here, I'm not sure it's worth the time and money.

I can get a 32oz bottle of Stans for about $20 good for 16 tires if used the recommended amount of 2oz/tire. That's $1.25 a tire.

Comparing to the Latex (1) /Slime (2)/ RV antifreeze (2) brew.
I found the 16oz of latex for $16, about $13 for 32oz of slime and $4 for a 1 gal jug RV antifreeze. That's about $30 for a mix of 80oz (since i would only be using 1/4 of the jug of anti freeze).

Using the recommended amount of home brew of 4oz/tire that would only do 20 tires which works out to $1.50 per tire.

Looking at it this way it cost more. Maybe I'm seeing something wrong here. I'm thinking 4 oz is over kill??? If 2oz of home brew is as good as 2oz of Stans then that changes things a bit.

Also I'm thinking if your using twice the amount of liquid per tire you would probably be adding rotation weight (yea, I'm a weight weenie) and you have to take time our of riding to mix it.

So what is the advantage of using your own home brew other than the fact of saying. I brewed it myself?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

wvmtb said:


> I've been using Stans forever now and have thought about the home brew thinking it would be cheaper. But after doing the math and spot reading some messages in here, I'm not sure it's worth the time and money.
> 
> I can get a 32oz bottle of Stans for about $20 good for 16 tires if used the recommended amount of 2oz/tire. That's $1.25 a tire.
> 
> ...


Also, you are using half the bottle of Slime.

I've always done two scoops, Stans or home brew. Maybe a TLR tire with one 2oz scoop, but not a regular tire that is porous. It would be gone by the time I got the sidewalls sealed.

This thread is about experimenting, try one scoop of home brew. If you use the same quantities, it is still half price! I got Mold Builder 16 oz for $14, Slime 32oz for $9, RV AF 64 oz for $3.50.


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## wvmtb (Jan 16, 2004)

I was basing that off of the 1:2:2 mixture. So I would have to use all of the 32oz bottle of Slime. My point was at 4oz of that brew versus 2oz of Stans, Stans is cheaper at the prices I have found. But ounce for ounce the home brew is cheaper. I might try it sometime just for the fun of it. So I can join in on the experimenting


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Supposedly, it's better than Stan's. The "original" recipe of Stan's was thicker with chunks if what I remember reading is correct. The current recipe is thinner with less or no chunks. I haven't used Stan's so that could be completely off base. That's just what I've heard.

I'm not a weight weenie and have thick, double ply tires so I'm not worried about putting 6oz in each 2.5.

Plus, there is the  factor of BREWING your own... :thumbsup:


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

wvmtb said:


> I was basing that off of the 1:2:2 mixture. So I would have to use all of the 32oz bottle of Slime. My point was at 4oz of that brew versus 2oz of Stans, Stans is cheaper at the prices I have found. But ounce for ounce the home brew is cheaper. I might try it sometime just for the fun of it. So I can join in on the experimenting


Ahhh. I do 1 latex :1 slime :3 RVAF (50/50 mix) and use two scoops. Again, with Stan's I always used two scoops, so the amount per tire stays the same. The cost went down though! :thumbsup:


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## wvmtb (Jan 16, 2004)

big0mike said:


> Supposedly, it's better than Stan's. The "original" recipe of Stan's was thicker with chunks if what I remember reading is correct. The current recipe is thinner with less or no chunks. I haven't used Stan's so that could be completely off base. That's just what I've heard.
> 
> I'm not a weight weenie and have thick, double ply tires so I'm not worried about putting 6oz in each 2.5.
> 
> Plus, there is the  factor of BREWING your own... :thumbsup:


You are correct. I've questioned the performance of the newer stuff not being as chunky but until recently I haven't had any problems with the "new brew". Hence the looking around at the home brew option.
I am a weight weenie when it comes to the race bike but I'm not so picky about my everyday bikes and don't care about a few grams.

Guess the price of home brew can vary a bunch due to different mixtures.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Yeah I did the 1:1:3 (Latex:Slime:RV Antifreeze).. got the Latex at Harbor Freight (with chunks) for $4, Latex was $21, RV Antifreeze was $4....So mine cost me just under $30, most of the shops around here sell the 24oz bottle of Stans for about $25 so I am getting almost 4 times that for close to the same price.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

*To Be Honest...None of them*

The best combination that I have found to date, trying several variations, and finally coming up with one for myself is as follows. Its easy as 1 2 3

1 Part Latex
2 Parts Slime (the tubeless rubber bits kind)
3 Parts water

I have made this mixture over a year ago and is still working awesome. I recently broke a few spokes, so I had to redo the tire and although much of the goo was not super viscous, it was still acting the part to seal the holes. And to boot, there was still liquid sealant in the bottom.

when you make it like this, it is slightly thicker than the other kinds, but that helps the keep more of the sealant on the inside of the tire, vs seeping out your side wall. I still have not had a flat....love the stuff.

I also use a 20'' tub a little differently than anything I have heard so far. Yes, i slit it the whole way around the tube and install it on the rim, but I do not flop the excess over the rim. I just keep everything in place as if it were on of the stans strips. This way, it offers a little thicker base and help to seal the tire. I just use my floor pump to seal up my tire and its as slick as can be. I have never had a burp, or any kind of air loss from the bead. I have even tried to force it to burp by trying to rip the tire of the rim when there is still air inside and still no burps.

I have been at this for a while and finally am content with both the method and the mix. Give it a shot and good luck


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

One point you are missing is that Stans dries out after 6 months and has to be replaced. Current homebrew mixtures last around 2 years. Also, in my large 29er tires I used 3 ounces of Stans and use 3 ounces of Homebrew. I get the mould builder with a 40% off coupon and with tax it is around $12. I buy the gallons of Slime at WalMart, etc.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

One more thought: Stans seals faster and would be the best choice for a racer. Stans seals faster because it has a higher vapor pressure and that is the reason it also hardens in 6 months.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

dustyduke22 said:


> 1 Part Latex
> 2 Parts Slime (the tubeless rubber bits kind)
> 3 Parts water
> 
> when you make it like this, it is slightly thicker than the other kinds, but that helps the keep more of the sealant on the inside of the tire, vs seeping out your side wall. I still have not had a flat....love the stuff.


That should be thinner with 3 parts water, not thicker, since the original recipe only calls for 2 parts liquid be it water, antifreeze or both. But if it works I'll won't be splitting hairs. :thumbsup:


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## gvs_nz (Dec 13, 2009)

Shouldn't this be moved to the tire forum??


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

gvs_nz said:


> Shouldn't this be moved to the tire forum??


Who goes _there_? 

Seems most of us are 29er riders. 29er riders have been more willing to accept tubeless earlier on, and seek other choices that last longer in hot dry climates.

....and after *three years*, you want to move it?!?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Better Idea: create a sealant forum and make this thread a sticky.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

big0mike said:


> That should be thinner with 3 parts water, not thicker, since the original recipe only calls for 2 parts liquid be it water, antifreeze or both. But if it works I'll won't be splitting hairs. :thumbsup:


One may think so, but it is quite thick


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## GatorB (Jan 9, 2010)

Success :thumbsup:, 2 days with no air loss. Thanks for all the info.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

My 1 latex/1.5 slime/2.5 water brew from March seems to keep drying out for some reason. I thought it was just because one of my tires is super weepy, but I recently had a slow leak in a different tire, and it was dry too. It's not humid here but it's certainly not a desert either, so I might have to try the antifreeze next time I make a batch.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

My impression was that the just water mix dried out faster. I use RVantifreeze with better results so far.


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## ds3000 (Jan 12, 2010)

Just created my own homebrew - 48 hours down and it still seems to be holding air.

I used;

1pt Mold Builder
1pt Water
1pt Windex (said no ammonia on bottle?? Decided to use it anyway)
Pinch of freshly ground black pepper.

Regular 2.25 Ardent on Crest.

I shall update as time goes by.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

Can anyone help me out here? I opened up my standard NN's and found this after 3 months, not one goober but dozens. I did 2 parts ATV slime, 1 part water, 1 part MB. The NN's did weep a bit through the sidewalls at first, but seems awfully quick to loose all the liquid. Is antifreeze the answer? The other thought is that now the sidewalls are sealed it won't loose moisture the next time around.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

stumblemumble said:


> Can anyone help me out here? I opened up my standard NN's and found this after 3 months, not one goober but dozens. I did 2 parts ATV slime, 1 part water, 1 part MB. The NN's did weep a bit through the sidewalls at first, but seems awfully quick to loose all the liquid. Is antifreeze the answer?


The recipe is usually either 2 parts water or 1pt water/1pt AF so it may be the missing part of water/AF that's causing it to booger up quicker.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

big0mike said:


> The recipe is usually either 2 parts water or 1pt water/1pt AF so it may be the missing part of water/AF that's causing it to booger up quicker.


Sounds good, I'll give it a go.


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## Moe's Tavern (Aug 7, 2010)

In light of your post (and your math), I thought I'd post my homebrew experience.

I used 16oz latex MB, 32oz slime, 32oz water and it cost me $30. I've done 4x 26" tires and 4x 29" tires and the results have been consistent. I've used 2oz of sealant each time.

I opened all of them after 6 WEEKS of late spring/summer use here in CA and found almost all of the sealant was gone; it wasn't dried up per se but there wasn't any sealant left, just a bunch of boogers. I also noticed a fairly consistent weeping of green stuff from the sidewalls (pro. glycol I imagine). This is a minor pain for me because it makes a mess when dusty, but more importantly, I found a dog licking my tire not too long ago while my bike was locked up. Finally, when removing the tires, there seems to be a fairly stubborn collection of fiber/dried sealant all along the beads and in some spots randomly inside the tire. So my experience will list three gripes: short life, weeping, boogers.

On the other hand, I have experience with the caffelatex stuff and found that after 6 MONTHS of use, 2/3rds of the sealant was still in the tires; I actually poured out the remaining sealant and weighed it [started with 80grams and ended with 50grams]. Also, when I took the tire off, the caffelatex just hosed right off leaving nearly zero boogerage. Also, once the sidewalls sealed up, they never, ever wept. So results are: long life, no boogers, no weeping. I'm not trying to S caffelatex's D here, just stating my experience.

So even though caffelatex is more expensive than homebrew, it has some distinct advantages for me. The deciding factor would be whether or not the homebrew is superior at sealing punctures. If that's the case then I'll stick with the homebrew and deal with the disadvantages&#8230;



wvmtb said:


> I've been using Stans forever now and have thought about the home brew thinking it would be cheaper. But after doing the math and spot reading some messages in here, I'm not sure it's worth the time and money.
> 
> I can get a 32oz bottle of Stans for about $20 good for 16 tires if used the recommended amount of 2oz/tire. That's $1.25 a tire.
> 
> ...


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## PretendGentleman (May 24, 2011)

Midle Age Warrior said:


> Hy folks
> 
> After read all this thread I decided to try my self my reasons are the cost and how long the mix survived. I do not live in the states and here the cost of the stan products is very high and due to the fact we have about 90 degree all year around the stan mix dries up fast and the money evaporates whit it.
> I am using the gorilla tape method and secret sauce version 1 with cheap antyfreez in order to prolong the live of the mix under hight temps, the rims are WTB Speeddisc.
> My problem is I can not stop the air loss at the valve, I taped over the valve with not success at all, the rim is seal also the tire, if I make a hole in the tire it seals too so I think it is not the mix it self, what I doing wrong ? :madman:


make sure you leave as much rubber around the valve stem as you can without the rubber getting between the rim and the tire bead. The shape should end up being rectangular or oval, as you can leave more rubber in the direction the tire rolls. Tape over the whole thing and poke a hole in the tape to let air through.

also, try different valves. road tubes have a lot less thin rubber around the valve and mtb tubes are the opposite. both worked for me (one in each wheel).

If you're still having problems, post again, and be sure to explain where the air is escaping from. I'm assuming its coming around the valve stem through the hole in the rim.

Make sure you're using a valve that's fully bonded to the tube. I always end up trashing tubes after many patches when the valve or the bonding around the valve fails. If you do the same and picked up a tube that had failed at the rubber/valve interface, perhaps sealant will not be sufficient to fix this problem.


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

Moe's Tavern said:


> On the other hand, I have experience with the caffelatex stuff and found that after 6 MONTHS of use, 2/3rds of the sealant was still in the tires; I actually poured out the remaining sealant and weighed it [started with 80grams and ended with 50grams]. Also, when I took the tire off, the caffelatex just hosed right off leaving nearly zero boogerage. Also, once the sidewalls sealed up, they never, ever wept. So results are: long life, no boogers, no weeping. I'm not trying to S caffelatex's D here, just stating my experience.
> 
> So even though caffelatex is more expensive than homebrew, it has some distinct advantages for me. The deciding factor would be whether or not the homebrew is superior at sealing punctures. If that's the case then I'll stick with the homebrew and deal with the disadvantages&#8230;


I tried CrappeExlax, and found that it did not seal punctures at all.:nono:

We have a lot of thorns, and sealant dries out fast here in AZ, so I put in more sealant than called for. I got a thorn the size of a pencil lead in my tire. I pulled it out and it sprayed out 3 full scoops of CaffeLatex on my garage floor. No shaking or dancing was able to stop it:madman:.

I took off the tire and washed it out.(Thankfully this crap washes away easy like you said) I reinstalled using ATV slime/MB/Antifreeze. Air was blowing out the hole until I turned it to the bottom, and it went ttthhhhiiiiipp. Instantly sealed.:thumbsup:

This was my last time using that junk and led to the appropriate renaming of CrappeExlax.:lol:


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## Pitto (Sep 26, 2005)

Moe's Tavern said:


> Hey Rich, do you mean 949? If so, right on! Glad someone else sees the awesomeness:thumbsup:
> 
> For others:


Got my Valves today. They look great. Just need the rest of my bits to arrive before i do the conversion.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

What would cause the MB and Slime to clot in two days? It looks like a thumb sized booger of latex with black bits. There's still plenty of what looks to be just the water too.
I did the water/MB/Slime approach, I thought others were doing without the antifreeze as well... Also what is it about the RV antifreeze? Does it contain ammonia?


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Why are you only using 2oz per tire? Even with Stan's they recommend using 3 to 4oz per tire and then to move up or down from there depending on how much the tire weeps and what not. I used 5oz each on my 29er tires and feel that will be sufficient for our hot, dry summers here in NV. I will check them out at the end of the summer to see how they have done. Rode them for the first time this weekend and was surprised that I was running just over 20psi up front and it felt much better than I though. I pumped up to 25psi front and 28 rear and will see how that goes on Thursday.



Moe's Tavern said:


> In light of your post (and your math), I thought I'd post my homebrew experience.
> 
> I used 16oz latex MB, 32oz slime, 32oz water and it cost me $30. I've done 4x 26" tires and 4x 29" tires and the results have been consistent. I've used 2oz of sealant each time.
> 
> ...


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## RagerXS (Jul 10, 2006)

*My 949 Racing valves don't fit*



Pitto said:


> Got my Valves today. They look great. Just need the rest of my bits to arrive before i do the conversion.


The space between the two sections of rim is too great such that when the washer and very wide nut are installed there isn't enough space left to connect a pump or compressor to the valve. I think the nut will have to be cut down. Anyone else have this problem?

Fred


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## Moe's Tavern (Aug 7, 2010)

RagerXS said:


> The space between the two sections of rim is too great such that when the washer and very wide nut are installed there isn't enough space left to connect a pump or compressor to the valve. I think the nut will have to be cut down. Anyone else have this problem?
> 
> Fred


Hey Fred,
Yeah, the retaining nut is too long and needs to be cut down a few mm. I mentioned this when I first posted about them here

cheers


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## Moe's Tavern (Aug 7, 2010)

gregnash said:


> Why are you only using 2oz per tire?


Yeah, I guess my innate fear of change is my excuse. My first tubeless experience was with Caffelatex and, if I recall correctly, they recommended 60 or 80ml. So I went with 2 oz by weight and it ended up lasting 6 months and hardly any evaporated or dried. So since one of the homebrew's main attributes is longevity, I figured there was no need to use any more than that. I did that instead of reading all of this thread, because reading makes me sleepy and I'd rather just take my tires apart and put them back together (needlessly).:crazy:

Also, on pressure, I'm running 19psi front on my rigid 29er and have only had a couple rim shots in gnarly rocky sections. I'm 169 w/o gear. Difference in comfort and handling between 19 and 25 psi is massive.


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## Dirty Bastard (Jan 23, 2008)

I am not sure about what it is about the RV antifreeze but it is necessary and cheap enough to just buy a big thing of it. I have always used it but my last batch I watered it down too much and it did the same thing, dry out early. New batch with proper amount=perfection.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

The RV antifreeze is non toxic, unlike regular vehicle stuff. The purpose of any antifreeze is to provide a low vapor point liquid that does not evaporate to increase longevity.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

slocaus said:


> The RV antifreeze is non toxic, unlike regular vehicle stuff. The purpose of any antifreeze is to provide a low vapor point liquid that does not evaporate to increase longevity.


So with a water/MB/Slime mix, why would all the latex and slime coagulate after two days in a tire? It sits mixed on the shelf fine, and there's plenty of liquid still in the tire after it forms a big booger.
Someone must have run into this problem...


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

stumblemumble said:


> So with a water/MB/Slime mix, why would all the latex and slime coagulate after two days in a tire? It sits mixed on the shelf fine, and there's plenty of liquid still in the tire after it forms a big booger.
> Someone must have run into this problem...


I do not know. My reply was to the question of why RV antifreeze, not an answer to your situation.

Check this thread about Stan's Boogers, and my reply there.

Do you use brand new tires, convert some that had been ridden? Maybe they had some small thorns or particles in there to seed the pearls (boogers).?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I had an instance with NoTox (propylene glycol) auto antifreeze where the mold builder coagulated - but when mixing. The batch looked like green egg drop soup rather than pastel green uniform color, and didn't seal the tire. I don't recall what it looked like when I pulled the tire off just a few days later.

Others have had this happen - seemed to be an issue of mixing order, where dumping antifreeze into latex caused the issue (IIRC).


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Did you happen to clean the inside of the tire before you did everything? Did you use CO2 or Nitrogen to fill the tire? I am wondering if something was in there that caused the sealant to start boogering. Looking at the Stan's booger thread and this thread people usually talk about getting something in the tire when this happens.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Nevermind, brain fart. :blush:


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## Sb.Reno (Jun 9, 2008)

I have been doing the mold builder/car slime/RV anti freeze all season. I have it in a 1/1/2 solution. It has worked really well. This is in the super dry Reno/Tahoe area. It has sealed punctures to about 1/4 an inch on the tread of an Ikon and 2bliss Capt. I do add some more sealant every 3-4 weeks or so and pull the boogers out. I still have a ton of sealant left. 

I feel that it seals much better than Stan's as I keep it a bit thicker.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

*Mixing order IS important*



wadester said:


> I had an instance with NoTox (propylene glycol) auto antifreeze where the mold builder coagulated - but when mixing. The batch looked like green egg drop soup rather than pastel green uniform color, and didn't seal the tire. I don't recall what it looked like when I pulled the tire off just a few days later.
> 
> Others have had this happen - seemed to be an issue of mixing order, where dumping antifreeze into latex caused the issue (IIRC).


Hi Wadester, I can verify that mixing order *is* important, when introducing propylene glycol _concentrate_, particularly the pure stuff used in beer-chillers. But unlikely to be so critical with the weak-sauce PG found in auto-stores, I'm guessing.

Briefly, mold-builder will coagulate *instantly*, when mixed together with pure propylene glycol. While this is a fun party-trick, it's best avoided when brewing sealant! Instead, the trick is simply to dilute your neat propylene glycol with sufficient water and slime, prior to introducing the mold-builder (which becomes the last step). In other words, just reverse the order of all your ingredients in the classic WSS recipe. What's more, I've recently discovered that a handheld blender works great for mixing the sealant. Especially when you're trying to use-up mold-builder that's past it's expiry-date. I can post a pic of the blender in action if anyone's curious.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

hootsmon said:


> Hi Wadester, I can verify that mixing order *is* important, when introducing propylene glycol _concentrate_, particularly the pure stuff used in beer-chillers. But unlikely to be so critical with the weak-sauce PG found in auto-stores, I'm guessing.
> 
> Briefly, mold-builder will coagulate *instantly*, when mixed together with pure propylene glycol. While this is a fun party-trick, it's best avoided when brewing sealant! Instead, the trick is simply to dilute your neat propylene glycol with sufficient water and slime, prior to introducing the mold-builder (which becomes the last step). In other words, just reverse the order of all your ingredients in the classic WSS recipe. What's more, I've recently discovered that a handheld blender works great for mixing the sealant. Especially when you're trying to use-up mold-builder that's past it's expiry-date. I can post a pic of the blender in action if anyone's curious.


So - our motto is Latex Last? I just use a paint stirring stick/shake the jar to mix.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

Just like baking... you want to mix the heaviest ingredients last. I mixed the liquids first then put the mold builder in. Had not issues with mine.. I used an old small blade spatula to mix for me (gives you the ability to scrap stuff off the walls and corners of your jar).


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

wadester said:


> So - our motto is Latex Last? I just use a paint stirring stick/shake the jar to mix.


Catchy! Yep I like it.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

My tubeless brew (a slight variation of the original Wades brew) finally appears to have expired after almost 2 years. To get the most bang for the buck, I brewed up about 1 gallon of the stuff with my latex, slime and cheap anti-freeze. It has always sealed up like a charm, but even the thickest ply sidewalls have wept anti-freeze. 

When I changed my tires a few days ago from Spec Captn Control to Kenda Nevegal and added 3 scoops of sealant from my half used gallon jug, it was unusually difficult to get the tires to seat on the rims. Once I finally got them to work, sealant was squirting out of the sidewalls and from the bead along with jets of air. The tires sat overnight, I aired them up again and went for a ride. I flatted out twice, with sealant burping from the sidewalls, and finally put in a tube.

I dont' think this is the tires because I've used Kendas before tubeless with this goo and it's sealed fine. I think it has just lost its ability to seal.

This pretty much negates any money savings I thought I gained by making my own, and I am going to buy a quart of Stans for this next round. Maybe the gallon sized slime containers at Wal Mart and latex on sale is the economical answer, but if it has a shelf life, as it seems mine does, this certainly plays into the question of whether or not it makes sense to spend the money and time just so you can say you made your own sealant.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

isleblue65 said:


> My tubeless brew (a slight variation of the original Wades brew) finally appears to have expired after almost 2 years. To get the most bang for the buck, I brewed up about 1 gallon of the stuff with my latex, slime and cheap anti-freeze. ... This pretty much negates any money savings I thought I gained by making my own, and I am going to buy a quart of Stans for this next round. Maybe the gallon sized slime containers at Wal Mart and latex on sale is the economical answer, but if it has a shelf life, as it seems mine does, this certainly plays into the question of whether or not it makes sense to spend the money and time just so you can say you made your own sealant.


This is a valid concern. My first batch didn't even last that long. It started coagulating in the jug and I couldn't get it to smooth out so I pitched it. My next batch has lasted longer than the first so far.

But, I'd say this is more of an argument of HOW BIG a batch to make vs. whether or not it's economical enough. When it works it works better so even if it's a wash on cost it's worth it.


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## gregnash (Jul 17, 2010)

^^^ to both of you..

Little research for my side with questions...
1. What was the ambient tempurature of the area where it was stored?
2. What was the light situation like?
3. What kind of container was it stored in?
4. How BIG was the batch made?
5. Has the batch been through any extreme tempurature changes? (i.e. sat outside all summer and then all winter in an uninsulated garage)
6. Is the jar air tight? (i know dumb question)
7. Is the container clear, opaque, non-see-thru?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

First batch:
1. What was the ambient tempurature of the area where it was stored? 80s to 100s
2. What was the light situation like? Garage so mostly dark
3. What kind of container was it stored in? Milk-like gallon jug
4. How BIG was the batch made? roughly half gallon
5. Has the batch been through any extreme tempurature changes? (i.e. sat outside all summer and then all winter in an uninsulated garage) Was pretty cool when I made it then started to get hot
6. Is the jar air tight? (i know dumb question) Mostly. When it was stored in the garage I would notice it imploding for whatever reason so I assume it's pretty air tight.
7. Is the container clear, opaque, non-see-thru? As clear as a milk jug

Second batch:
1. What was the ambient tempurature of the area where it was stored? 80s
2. What was the light situation like? Dark in a cabinet
3. What kind of container was it stored in? Milk-like gallon jug
4. How BIG was the batch made? little more than half gallon
5. Has the batch been through any extreme tempurature changes? (i.e. sat outside all summer and then all winter in an uninsulated garage) No
6. Is the jar air tight? (i know dumb question) Now I'm thinking not so much. It appeared to be imploded when I just now checked but when I opened it up it didn't suck in a lot of air so it may be the container being misshaped now.
7. Is the container clear, opaque, non-see-thru? As clear as a milk jug

I've thought about the variables above myself but have not had enough time to extrapolate any theories as to which variable(s) could have been the contributing factor of my poor first batch.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

big0mike said:


> First batch:
> 1. What was the ambient tempurature of the area where it was stored? 80s to 100s
> 2. What was the light situation like? Garage so mostly dark
> 3. What kind of container was it stored in? Milk-like gallon jug
> ...


Don't forget that the order you mix the ingredients can have an effect on how long it will last.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I have never had a batch go bad on me, takes me two to three years to use it up between 3 wheelsets and being generous with friends. I'm still using the original formula with antifreeze and it works so well that I have little incentive to make a change until my jug of cheap green antifreeze is gone. I mix the ingredients in a clear jug, shaken not stirred, latex goes in last. I store it on a shelf in the laundry room.

I use homebrew because I have no bike shop to by sealant from but it works better too, IME. The antifreeze draws the latex into the tire pores faster and the chunks and fibers fill gaps quicker. The spotting caused by the antifreeze doesn't seem to affect performance and varies a lot with different tires. I wonder if some problems are caused by too thick of a mix?


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

When people are talking about RV antifreeze now, that's the pink, non-toxic, propylene glycol stuff (as opposed to the cheap green antifreeze that bsieb mentions)? It's basically the plumbing antifreeze and not an engine coolant?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slocaus said:


> Don't forget that the order you mix the ingredients can have an effect on how long it will last.


I thought the order only mattered when using the RV anti-freeze? I did learn several posts up to put the heaviest stuff in last (latex) but didn't know that before my latest batch. It seems to be doing fine as of now.

On the anti-freeze... Is there a special type on the shelf of AutoZone for RVs? I've heard it all before but haven't used the 1:2:1:1 mix yet so haven't bothered looking for it. Never knew there was an "RV" version of anti-freeze until this thread. I will try it on the next batch just for poops and giggles.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I make 5 pint batches, and keep them in a glass jar in the kitchen. Good til the last drop. The chunkulation settles, but the liquid stays mixed with no stratification.


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## RagerXS (Jul 10, 2006)

*What does order matter?*

I thought the only problem with order was if you mixed latex and water it could clump? I put the latex in first and then used the container as a measuring cup for all other ingredients in the following order and shaking each time an additional ingredient got added:


1 part Latex
1 part slime
1 part anti-freeze
1 part water
1 part RV anti-freeze

Setup very easily with a floor pump - I can't imagine it being any easier than it was and I've had no weepage, YMMV. My setup is Pacenti Neo-Moto tires on Velocity Blunt SL rims with Gorilla tape.

Fred


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

RagerXS said:


> I thought the only problem with order was if you mixed latex and water it could clump?


Check post #1000.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

RagerXS, why would you use two types of antifreeze?

I think all sealant weeps through porous sidewalls, some evaporates faster so you don't notice it, but when the sealant dries out the moisture goes through something. Antifreeze doesn't evaporate quickly so it is more visible.


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## isleblue65 (Sep 5, 2009)

gregnash said:


> ^^^ to both of you..
> 
> Little research for my side with questions...
> 1. What was the ambient tempurature of the area where it was stored? Varied from -10F to over 100F.
> ...


 clear.


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## RagerXS (Jul 10, 2006)

bsieb said:


> RagerXS, why would you use two types of antifreeze?


Because I initially 'assumed' that the RV anti-freeze was just a pre-mixed 50-50 blend of AF and water. Then I saw the RV anti-freeze on the shelf and realized it was a different animal - I had just mixed my brew and hadn't yet setup the tires so I bought that and added it to the mix. I make no claim at all that my recipe is any better than others. Heck, this is my first tubeless experience, so I'm just stumbling through it. Luckily, it is working fantastic so far. In fact, I was running a 650/26 setup for two rides with the front tubeless and a Fire XC Pro on the rear tubed. First ride was wet so I lowered pressures. I chose not to add pressure on the second ride and the rear tire rolled off the rim but the front held firm and never burped or wept any sealant.

Fred


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## William_Cannon (May 5, 2009)

Could someone save me the trouble of reading 21 pages and let me know what the latest WSS recipe is?  After 2+ years, I am finally running low...


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

If you read the last 5 pages you will know that it is still under discussion. The most popular candidates are:

1 Latex
2 Slime
1 Water
1 RV antifreeze

1 Latex
2 Slime
2 Water

I prefer the first one as the water seems to evaporate faster.

currently I am going to test on my next batch

1 Latex
2 Slime
2 Rv antifreeze

Also, it is very important to add the latex to the mix last and stir it in well.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> 1 Latex
> 2 Slime
> 1 Water
> 1 RV antifreeze
> ...


Yeah, I've got to warn against the second one because mine is drying up super fast. My next batch will definitely use antifreeze instead.


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## Moe's Tavern (Aug 7, 2010)

newfangled said:


> Yeah, I've got to warn against the second one because mine is drying up super fast. My next batch will definitely use antifreeze instead.


Aye. Ageed. I blended the 2nd one and its dry in like five weeks. And weeps badly thru all five different types of tires I've tried. And the phase separation in the jug takes about two weeks. Not too stoked. Need to try another blend. Maybe it was the MB I used?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

It could be that the 2 slimes is too much, the original V1 formula is:

1 16 oz auto slime 
1 16oz antifreeze (green, EG)
2 16oz water
1 16oz mold builder latex

or

3 16oz premixed RV antifreeze
1 16oz slime
1 16oz mold builder latex

I have had no problems with the first mix (V1) separating except for the rubber chunks which tend to settle to the bottom, a quick shake takes care of that.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

^ my mix was actually 1 Latex - 1.5 Slime - 2.5 Water and it's been drying out after a month or two. And we've had a really cool and damp summer. After about 6 months I haven't had any problems with the mixture in the big jug separating or drying out, though.


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## minh (May 23, 2004)

wadester: 

any way you can edit your first post and add your current mix (WSS 2.0)? I still have half a batch of original WSS left and plan to use it until gone but I saw an update a while back and it'd be great to have it in the first page for accessibility.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

minh said:


> wadester:
> 
> any way you can edit your first post and add your current mix (WSS 2.0)? I still have half a batch of original WSS left and plan to use it until gone but I saw an update a while back and it'd be great to have it in the first page for accessibility.


Sorry, no edit button on my first post/ the 2nd post of the thread.

I have been considering starting a new thread, with something like an FAQ from here but with room for the experimental updates to continue.

This is in the 29er forum - should a new one be in Wheels&Tires? How'd ya'll find this thing, anyways? I'm assuming a search of some kind, but what's the best thread name to find? I got lucky and saw it post in 29er, and have been subscribed from the start.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I found it because I monitor the 29er forum. If not for the fact that it was probably in the wrong forum, I might have never found it. I was aware of similar recipes on other forums and was already starting to experiment. I generally never look in the Wheel and Tire forum. Any chance the "gods" would give us a sealant forum?


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

I'd put it in Wheel and Tire and just call it 'Best Tubeless Brew' with mention of 'Wade's Secret Sauce' in the first post. I do agree this thread needs to be stickied with a FAQ starter that addresses what has been tried and works as well as what doesn't.

I'll second that the 2 parts water dries very quickly.


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## minh (May 23, 2004)

agree. in wheel and tire with a stickie!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> Any chance the "gods" would give us a sealant forum?


Yeah, right after we get a paying sponsor. Think Stan might pony up?

Back when I was doing my sealant research, I was using google to search all the internet. I found several sources of information in various places - most were recommending windshield washer fluid. If you try it now, this thread is one of the picks on mtbr.

Did anybody actually look in wheel&tire??


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

wadester said:


> Did anybody actually look in wheel&tire??


No, not for a long time. I used to follow it, but no helpful information for my use, unlike this thread and forum.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

I look in Wheel and Tire about as little as I look in the 29er forum.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^ The wheel and tire forum has different info and seems stodgy compared to this thread. Lotsa myths floating around there...


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## Bµ[email protected] (May 31, 2009)

Now i use Nozisch tiresealant way better than homebrewed stuff
my last experience was

1part anti freeze
1part Latex
1part Slime
1part water


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## special k (Mar 15, 2005)

I still have about a 2/3 full bottle of Stans sealant left that I've used in combo with some rubber aggregate. The only issue is the Stans drying out quicker than Id like in our 100+ temps we have been having. Would there be any problem adding some RV antifreeze to the Stans to prevent it from evaporating as quick?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

special k:
Do it an report back. I just mixed up a new batch with:
1 part latex
2 parts Slime
2 parts RV antifreeze
1/4 part ammonia

I figure the ammonia is the part that evaporates so might as well start with more. I mixed the RV antifreeze and the Slime and then stirred in the ammonia and then the latex. Haven't had to put it in any tires yet, but I was out.


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## kustomz (Jan 6, 2004)

I just replaced my brew after 10 months because I purchased a new wheelset. The rear tire had no measurable liquid, just a moist slather that I scraped out. The front had about 1/2 of a wet scoop that was still around and ready to do it's job.

I made this batch in a old and tired water bottle, then placed it in my liquids cabinet in the garage. About every 2-3 months, I would pull it out and give it a shake, so this may be one of the reasons the batch was ready for use and had the same consistency as the day it was made.

My brew consisted of the following using a Stan's scoop:
4 Scoops RV Antifreeze
4 Scoops of Latex Mould Builder
2 Scoop of plain tap water
1 Scoop of train modlers rubber grass


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## William_Cannon (May 5, 2009)

wadester said:


> How'd ya'll find this thing, anyways?.


search


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## thinman (Jun 13, 2005)

Add this to the mix...

I have just started using a home brew tubeless mixture of latex admix for thinset and radiator stopleak. I am 2 weeks in. Tires still holding pressure and I didn't need to pump up at all. I did a leak test on an old IRC Mythos, it sealed the sidewall and a few thumbtack punctures I administered as a test. No long term testing but I'm riding it until it fails me.

Mix ratio
4 oz. admix
2 oz noleak

NoLeak is the name brand I used. It is a premixed gel of gold colored crystals. Seems a better choice than glitter and will mix into antifreeze mixes as well.
[


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

I'm at about 4 weeks on a new brew in three wheels, I now have it in all seven wheels that I have, after a couple more tire swaps. Consistency is slightly thicker than Stans that I used for years.

1 part mold builder, 
1 part Slime ATV, 
3 parts RV antifreeze mix (assume 50/50 water, % each not on bottle)

I just had a weird sidewall slit on an old Geax Saguaro that I have had for probably three years and have used intermittently, mostly on a fixed disc rear wheel. Slit was between widest part of casing and bead at rim. Almost like a casing pinch, which it might have been, but it did not look fresh, more like an old cut with dust on the edges that finally opened. I've had a couple of these through the years, and they usually mean installing a tube to get home and throwing out the tire.

The hardest thing was getting the wheel positioned to get the sealant to that part of the tire. I let the pressure down to probably 10-12psi so it stopped spraying sealant. (I run this wheel about 22-25psi normally). In about 5 minutes it stopped dripping, in 10 minutes I could see the outside of the clot drying. I gave it another 5 minutes and pumped it back up to what I guessed as about 25psi and rode it about 5 miles back. Put the gauge on it at home and it was 27psi.

Now two days later and I pumped it to 40psi and not a leak or sign of slit opening up. I'll see what it looks like tomorrow, and if good, I'll drop it back to 25psi and ride it with confidence.


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## SparxFlyer (Dec 29, 2010)

*Reporting in...*

I am using a 1:2:2 mix of latex, ATV Slime and RV Antifreeze. I made this back in late April or early May in a 1 quart / 1 litre pickle jar.

I installed it in Mavic TN719 rims (standard SPX Tallboy kit) with a single layer of Stans Yellow Tape with a Maxxis Ignitor up front and a Crossmark in the back. No parts are in any way "tubeless ready".


Install went well. I used an air compressor to seat the beads then added the mix through the stem (with valve removed) using an ear irrigator. 
Had no puncture issues on the trail that I noticed. Only burped last week on a rocky ride where the tire pressure was lowered too much for "better grip" on a rocky ride. (Note: ended up using a tube after removing a small booger. Even when that pinch flatted (heard it go) the air stayed in the tire and I was able to use a hand pump to add more air and keep riding!)
When removing the tube the back tire had a thick smear of the mix every where, but no liquid to speak of. Roughly 1/3rd of the tire's tread path had the mix set up forming a layer of the latex. The bead and just the outside of the bead also had the mix set up. I removed as much of both of these as I could, which took a bit of scrubbing and picking, before reinstalling the tire on the rim. Install went very well with even less sealant coming out of around the rim than last time. (Removing some left over pieces from the injection mold may have also helped.)
The front tire had developed a booger almost right away. I took the opportunity to remove it and also found a thick goo everywhere around the tire but no built-up sealant anywhere. In this case I just added an irrigator's worth (1.3 or so ounces) and reseated the tire using a floor pump one-handed. :thumbsup:
So far both tires haven't lost any air, so am one again truly tubeless. FYI, at 175 lbs (80 kg) + kit I am running the tires at 25 for the front and 28 for the back and having no issues with burps etc. (FYI, the recommended minimum pressure for each tire is 35 lbs, so I am happy for the extra grip.)
Also, the batch in jar was good to go. It did get quite hot as it was stored in the trunk of my car for a week.I am now just past the half point of the original batch, which used less than half of my ingredients.

Depending on how this things go from this point forward I may reduce the amount of Slime I use when I make up the next batch. I noted that the boogers had a lot of black specs from the Slime.

That's all for now...


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## RagerXS (Jul 10, 2006)

*First Flat*

Got a flat today and watched my sealant spray out. It was a puncture, maybe 1/8 of an inch but I think smaller. I actually stopped the leak for a bit, but when I attempted to ride away it immediately started leaking again - should I have waited?

Fred


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Patience, low pressure while it coagulates, and getting the puncture where the sealant can work is needed. 

How long does it take you to pull a wheel, replace a tube, pump it up, and replace that wheel? 

Give the sealant that much time to work and you can probably ride away. At least that works for me. :thumbsup:


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

Has anyone tried WSS or another sealant in DIY studded tires? Because within a couple of months I'm going to have to start running these:





I guess the fear is that the studs will constantly wiggle, and so the sealant will never get a chance to work? But I've seen some mentions of people who have successfully run DIY studs tubeless, but they were vague and I wouldn't call them definitive.

I was planning on running tubes with a liner, but I think that when I switch my tires over I'll try to air one up with WSS and ride around a bit as an experiment.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

RagerXS said:


> Got a flat today and watched my sealant spray out. It was a puncture, maybe 1/8 of an inch but I think smaller. I actually stopped the leak for a bit, but when I attempted to ride away it immediately started leaking again - should I have waited?





slocaus said:


> Patience, low pressure while it coagulates, and getting the puncture where the sealant can work is needed. How long does it take you to pull a wheel, replace a tube, pump it up, and replace that wheel? Give the sealant that much time to work and you can probably ride away. At least that works for me.


Everyone has seen the Stan's demo video. That sh|t should seal damn near instantly. If it doesn't you have:

1. a puncture not meant to be sealed; too big a hole, sidewall tear.
2. a failure of your sealant; dried up, latex/slime all gone leaving you with water/anti-freeze.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

big0mike said:


> Everyone has seen the Stan's demo video. That sh|t should seal damn near instantly. If it doesn't you have:
> 
> 1. a puncture not meant to be sealed; too big a hole, sidewall tear.
> 2. a failure of your sealant; dried up, latex/slime all gone leaving you with water/anti-freeze.


I disagree, because now I know the status of my sealant, and do not ride when it is as you state (I learned that lesson a long time ago). I recharge or replace it.

I've had many "wet spots" on tires after rides that sealed with no issues, since I have seen the thorns inside the tire when I open it much later. I've had probably 12 "spraying punctures" that require trail side attention, only one did not seal and it was about 1/2" long that would stop, but only at about 5 psi, trying to get over 20 psi pulled the clot open. I've been at this for over four years tubeless, with Stan's, Stan's / Slime mixes, and now WSS. A little time to let the sealant work at low psi sure works for me. YMMV


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slocaus said:


> I've had probably 12 "spraying punctures" that require trail side attention, only one did not seal and it was about 1/2" long that would stop, but only at about 5 psi, trying to get over 20 psi pulled the clot open. I've been at this for over four years tubeless, with Stan's, Stan's / Slime mixes, and now WSS. A little time to let the sealant work at low psi sure works for me. YMMV


I would say that those 12 "spraying punctures" were holes that were outside the scope of what our sealants are supposed to do. That's just my opinion. If it doesn't seal immediately it's probably too big. That's not to say it CAN'T be sealed, though, as you've demonstrated. I wouldn't trust that tire, though. Again, That's just me...

My first attempt at tubeless I used an older tire. Didn't know it but I had a pretty big hole in the tread. I could hear the air coming out so I rotated the tire around and got the sealant to seal it. Let it sit for a bit and came back out, aired the tire up. No problems. Before I ride a rough trail with a questionable tire I decided to give it a simple test. Found the hole and bounced the hell out of it on the ground. Wound up with a nice pile a green snot on the garage floor. That hole wasn't meant to be sealed and I'm glad I checked it or I certainly would've been stuffing a tube in that wheel out on the trail.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

big0mike said:


> I would say that those 12 "spraying punctures" were holes that were outside the scope of what our sealants are supposed to do. That's just my opinion. If it doesn't seal immediately it's probably too big. That's not to say it CAN'T be sealed, though, as you've demonstrated. I wouldn't trust that tire, though. Again, That's just me...


Your choice makes sense. I felt that Stan's often did not seal punctures that did not cut casing threads. That was my incentive first in combining Slime with Stan's, and then using glitter and fibers, peppercorns, etc. was to get bigger holes that were not affecting the tires structural integrity to seal on the trail and save the messy tube install. That is what lead me to the WSS blends. I'm not a youngster anymore, or rough and aggressive, but I am cautions with my tires. I just do not accept the


> it's probably too big. That's not to say it CAN'T be sealed


 part of your discussion.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slocaus said:


> Your choice makes sense. I felt that Stan's often did not seal punctures that did not cut casing threads. That was my incentive first in combining Slime with Stan's, and then using glitter and fibers, peppercorns, etc. was to get bigger holes that were not affecting the tires structural integrity to seal on the trail and save the messy tube install. That is what lead me to the WSS blends. I'm not a youngster anymore, or rough and aggressive, but I am cautions with my tires. * I just do not accept the "it's probably too big. That's not to say it CAN'T be sealed" part of your discussion.*


To the best of my knowledge, and I have been lucky enough to not have to "test" my sealant much if at all, everything we've done so far is negligibly effective against larger holes. I will be one of the first to adopt any sealant that is capable of sealing larger holes. I think anyone on this board will. But, one major criteria for sealant for me, and I would assume a lot of other riders, is that it works immediately.

When I'm out trying to ride I don't wanna be stuck on the side of the trail either waiting for my sealant to work or stuffing a tube in my tire. Both will require time, one will require time & effort, and both keep me off the bike at a time that I really don't wanna be off it. Especially in this Arizona summer heat.

Maybe I'm missing something and you've found an "additive" that will seal larger holes? I try to keep up with this thread but something may have slipped past me...


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## sslos (Jan 6, 2004)

newfangled said:


> Has anyone tried WSS or another sealant in DIY studded tires? Because within a couple of months I'm going to have to start running these:
> 
> I guess the fear is that the studs will constantly wiggle, and so the sealant will never get a chance to work? But I've seen some mentions of people who have successfully run DIY studs tubeless, but they were vague and I wouldn't call them definitive.
> 
> I was planning on running tubes with a liner, but I think that when I switch my tires over I'll try to air one up with WSS and ride around a bit as an experiment.


Maybe a layer of Gorilla tape over the screws? It'll give you another sealant layer so that you're not depending on the liquid sealant to do all the work.

Los


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

^ yeah, that's a good idea. The thing about using a tube/liner is that it would push against the screws to prevent them from backing into the tire. Gorilla tape wouldn't be quite as good at that, but it could definitely provide some resistance and an extra seal.

The reason I want to experiment with this is because it makes me think of setting up a tire for the first time, and how the valve stem pisses air if you even look at it funny. So you shake the sealent around a bit and it seals up, but then you go to add more air, and you jostle the stem a tiny bit, and it starts leaking again. Eventually it seals up nicely though, and then you can tweak the stem a lot without any leaks. I'm hoping that the same thing will happen with the studs.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

newfangled said:


> Has anyone tried WSS or another sealant in DIY studded tires? I guess the fear is that the studs will constantly wiggle, and so the sealant will never get a chance to work?


THEORETICALLY, the sealant is LATEX which is a pliable substance. It SHOULD allow a bit of play with the studs and in the event that a stud does move enough that a gap opens the latex will fill that gap. The holes from the studs should seal perfectly just line a normal puncture.

That's my THEORY and odds are good that I'm wrong.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

newfangled said:


> ^ yeah, that's a good idea. The thing about using a tube/liner is that it would push against the screws to prevent them from backing into the tire. Gorilla tape wouldn't be quite as good at that, but it could definitely provide some resistance and an extra seal.
> 
> The reason I want to experiment with this is because it makes me think of setting up a tire for the first time, and how the valve stem pisses air if you even look at it funny. So you shake the sealent around a bit and it seals up, but then you go to add more air, and you jostle the stem a tiny bit, and it starts leaking again. Eventually it seals up nicely though, and then you can tweak the stem a lot without any leaks. I'm hoping that the same thing will happen with the studs.


I have tried to find an old old thread but no luck. I remember someone doing DIY studs and having trouble with tube punctures. Used a liner, but it would shift at the low psi he ran. He ended up painting the inside of the tire and studs with rubber cement, all the way from bead to bead. Then he painted the rims strip and laid it in, then used gorilla tape to cover the edges of the rim strip with overlapping layers almost to the bead. He stated that solved it and might work for you.

There are also some old posts from @mikesee about doing something similar with rubber cement and a split tube to reinforce some of the early tires for tubeless use, mostly to reinforce the sidewalls (can't find that one either). Here is another post from @mikesee about using rubber cement, points 4 and 5 are good.


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## DustyBones (Jun 23, 2010)

cronic said:


> So 2 oz. weighs 80g. Ouch! If I use 3 oz. I am within 20g of the tube I am replacing. Hmmm, seems like the weight savings argument is kinda a moot point.



WTF?
1 oz. = 28 grams, thus 2 oz. = 56 grams, not 80 grams!


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## MagicCarpet (Apr 4, 2009)

There theoretical weight of 1 oz of water is 29.574 grams. Is it possible that the sealant weighs more than water? I'd have to say that I think it might. 34% more? It's possible. One thing is for sure, Cronic was talking about sealant, not water.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

One ounce is equal to 28.349 grams. We are dealing with fluid ounces which 1 fluid ounce of water weighs 29.574 grams. Sealant is much denser than water and of course every mixture is slightly different. My guess is that 2 ounces of sealant is in the 80 gram range.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I'm not about to reread this entire thread but I'm pretty sure the "weight saving" argument is a wash. Tubeless is just as heavy, sometimes more so. But the benefits far outweigh the little bit of extra weight. Hell, I've got 1400 gram tires and at least 6 oz of sealant in each


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Overall tubeless is slightly lighter but not enough to matter much.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

I somewhat disagree.
Tubeless can be a lot lighter, running UST rims and a standard tire once the sealant dries out. You don't have the puncture protection with dried sealant, so it gives the same puncture protection as a tube. Just a lot lighter.


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## smilinsteve (Jul 21, 2009)

stumblemumble said:


> I somewhat disagree.
> Tubeless can be a lot lighter, running UST rims and a standard tire once the sealant dries out. You don't have the puncture protection with dried sealant, so it gives the same puncture protection as a tube. Just a lot lighter.


I never really thought about it like that. Ok, if you really want to go ultra light, that is one option. But tubes can weigh anywhere from 60 to 200 grams, with plenty of options in the 150g or less category. That's not a whole lot of weight. Figure that dried sealant weighs something, plus the rim strip sealing adds weight, (30g here, 40g there?) Also, light weight standard tires might be usable but don't normally perform that well run tubeless due to the thin sidewalls and lighter bead. So, practically speaking, a really light tubeless set up you describe has some compromises for maybe 2 ozs of weight savings.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

smilinsteve said:


> I never really thought about it like that. Ok, if you really want to go ultra light, that is one option. But tubes can weigh anywhere from 60 to 200 grams, with plenty of options in the 150g or less category. That's not a whole lot of weight. Figure that dried sealant weighs something, plus the rim strip sealing adds weight, (30g here, 40g there?) Also, light weight standard tires might be usable but don't normally perform that well run tubeless due to the thin sidewalls and lighter bead. So, practically speaking, a really light tubeless set up you describe has some compromises for maybe 2 ozs of weight savings.


I see your 2ozs and raise you.  Easton Havens with no rim strips.

For reference I run the Havens, Schwalbe NN standard w/ Snakeskin. So given the right tire, assuming I'd be running Snakeskin Schwalbes anyways and not something paper thin, there can be a lot of gain. How much???

I did always run 2.1 ultralight tubes in my 2.4 tires. Tubes were 120g each. Dried sealant equation should be approximately:

Weight of 3oz sealant - Weight of just under 3oz water/ammonia = Very little

I'd guess about 20-25g per tire of dried sealant? That's about 100 grams saving per tire.

(Of course when you do flat and add a tube, your 120g tube will weigh 140g. But who's counting )


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

You can use those rims and tires with tubes so let's just look at the rest. 3 ounces of sealant is certainly going to weigh well north of 90 grams and very light tubes are generally around 120 so well less than 30 grams a wheel which to me is not that much. And the tube includes the weight of the valve so we would have to add that back also giving even less savings.

In my case I weighed the first set before and after and I think I saved a total for two wheels ~45 grams. But being the first time, I might have used close to 4 grams per tire so in reality probably saving 100 grams total for 2 wheels in actual practice.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

yourdaguy said:


> You can use those rims and tires with tubes so let's just look at the rest. 3 ounces of sealant is certainly going to weigh well north of 90 grams and very light tubes are generally around 120 so well less than 30 grams a wheel which to me is not that much. And the tube includes the weight of the valve so we would have to add that back also giving even less savings.
> 
> In my case I weighed the first set before and after and I think I saved a total for two wheels ~45 grams. But being the first time, I might have used close to 4 grams per tire so in reality probably saving 100 grams total for 2 wheels in actual practice.


My post was referring to dried sealant, read up a few posts.


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## Nickbm3 (Nov 10, 2010)

Does anyone "recycle" sealant? If you want to try another tire for example, when the current tire was setup not that long ago (1-2 months) can you re-use the sealant that is still liquid? I was thinking it could be sucked up with a syringe, or poured into a small cup. 

Bad idea?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Nickbm3 said:


> Does anyone "recycle" sealant? If you want to try another tire for example, when the current tire was setup not that long ago (1-2 months) can you re-use the sealant that is still liquid? I was thinking it could be sucked up with a syringe, or poured into a small cup.
> 
> Bad idea?


Yes, I do that all the time. Used to do it with Stans, my Stans / Slime mix, and now with my WSS brew. I use the syringe, place it back in the bottle, and shake it all up well for the new / old install. I see no downside to it, saves some $ and supports my 3R lifestyle.


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## Nickbm3 (Nov 10, 2010)

slocaus said:


> Yes, I do that all the time. Used to do it with Stans, my Stans / Slime mix, and now with my WSS brew. I use the syringe, place it back in the bottle, and shake it all up well for the new / old install. I see no downside to it, saves some $ and supports my 3R lifestyle.


Thanks, thats what i was hoping to hear. :thumbsup: Seemed like a waste to use new sealant if just changing tires. I do the same when bleeding my reverb, just squirt the rest of the fluid back into the bottle, as long as its clean and the same color as whats in the bottle.


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## mountaindavis (Jun 18, 2010)

Although I do reuse my reverb oil, I don't reuse my sealant. I just figure that the used mix has changed as some has become a film on the inside of the tire, some has solidified into a booger, and some has evaporated. Since I want it to last as long as possible, unless it is just weeks old, I toss it.


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## Tim-H (Mar 20, 2010)

Just bumping this thread again with another request to sticky it.

Currently mixing up:
1 Latex
2 Slime
2 Rv antifreeze(skipping water because it's already 50/50)
I'll report back in a while. This is my first time mixing and running tubeless.


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## JStrube (Aug 25, 2011)

Going to mix up a brew of WSSV-1 today & put in the rear tire to compare with the Stan's I put in the front.

Going to use:

1-Mold builder
1-Slime ATV-tubeless
1-EG antifreeze
2-H2O

Question though, would using the entire 24oz bottle of Slime in this version vs. 16OZ cause any heartache? I would keep the other proportions the same, It is just that I bought a 24oz bottle because that is all they had & don't know what I will do with the extra 8oz of slime...

Thoughts?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^^^ Let us know how it works... I wouldn't hesitate. :thumbsup:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Shouldn't that be 1 -H2O? I don't think a little extra slime would hurt much but I wouldn't use that much water. Also, RV antifreeze instead of water and EG seems to me to work better.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Agree with @yourdaguy, too much water. I am using RV antifreeze that is 50/50 with water (3 parts), 1 slime, 1 mold builder.


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## curtboroff (Sep 21, 2010)

I think I'm gonna try this for my first batch:
1-mold builder
1-slime
1-RV af(50/50)
1- rubber grinding/dryer lint/RV af mix
Water to thin

I'm not settled on the dryer lint yet, but the rubber grindings are for sure. I work for a tire producer and have access to tons of it. With a good fiber and the grindings, no need for slime.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

curtboroff said:


> I think I'm gonna try this for my first batch:
> 1-mold builder
> 1-slime
> 1-RV af(50/50)
> ...


Someone tried dryer lint and it soaks up all the liquids, leaving nothing to seal. Leave that out, everything else looks good, but I like using the RV AF 50/05 for all liquid, I find the more water, the faster it evaporates. YMMV.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

yourdaguy said:


> Shouldn't that be 1 -H2O? I don't think a little extra slime would hurt much but I wouldn't use that much water. Also, RV antifreeze instead of water and EG seems to me to work better.


His formula is correct for his version, which I find to work very well. I would tend to go for the thinnest mix that works, actually. It's moisture loss that causes drying and boogers so I always figured that the more moisture there was to lose the longer it would last. I inspect my sealant levels by pulling the bead back and looking at the sealant. Even without much of a sealant puddle there is always a nice thick mucous coating of sealant on the entire inner surface. When that dries out too much the sealant fails.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

In my experience the water evaporates faster than the RV antifreeze so in my case RV antifreeze seems to work better.

curtborhof:
Don't use the lint. rubber chunks is probably very good-wish I had some.


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## JStrube (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks guys, I bought a bunch of EG 100% for the cars, it was cheaper than the 50/50 mix this time. Using leftover makes more sense than buying a jug of new stuff. Either way, I go through tons of tubes with the kids, so this should save me money & work. We live in goat head city!


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

JStrube said:


> Thanks guys, I bought a bunch of EG 100% for the cars, it was cheaper than the 50/50 mix this time. Using leftover makes more sense than buying a jug of new stuff. Either way, I go through tons of tubes with the kids, so this should save me money & work. We live in goat head city!


You are aware that EG is dangerous around kids and animals? PG is considered non toxic and it what is in the RV antifreeze. I prefer it since I need the shop dog to be safe (think eat everything on the floor, it might be food , spit out it not, if in doubt, swallow anyway, let the stomach handle it ).


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## JStrube (Aug 25, 2011)

Kids are 13,16 & 17. Not worried about them drinking antifreeze! No dogs to worry about here. Thanks though!


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## FastDDS (Oct 19, 2005)

Is there any reason not to use:
Propylene Glycol (RV anti freeze) with Slime ATV/Mower Tire sealant?
Lots of variations on this board regarding different slime and PG/EG.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

FastDDS said:


> Is there any reason not to use:
> Propylene Glycol (RV anti freeze) with Slime ATV/Mower Tire sealant?
> Lots of variations on this board regarding different slime and PG/EG.


That's what I do, works fine.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

FastDDS said:


> Is there any reason not to use:
> Propylene Glycol (RV anti freeze) with Slime ATV/Mower Tire sealant?
> Lots of variations on this board regarding different slime and PG/EG.





stumblemumble said:


> That's what I do, works fine.


Same here. :thumbsup:


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## FastDDS (Oct 19, 2005)

So ?
1 part mold builder
1 part slime ATV/Mower
1 RV anti freeze (propylene Glycol)

I have no glitter or rubber grinds. 
This will work? Or different ratios/ add h2o?


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

FastDDS said:


> So ?
> 1 part mold builder
> 1 part slime ATV/Mower
> 1 RV anti freeze (propylene Glycol)
> ...


I did: 
2 Slime 
2 RV-AF 
1 MB

This mix, when it does dry out after a couple months, forms a nice uniform sheet of dried latex covering the inside of the tire. No boogers!!! I had many boogers when using water.

I'd recommend using a quarter cup measurement as your "parts", that way you can make small batches and continue to experiment. 
I think the best mix is dependent on how hot your climate, tire porosity and how much the bike gods like you.

I think the glitter/rubber grinds idea has been put to rest. I never tried it, but the ATV slime does have rubber bits in it FWIW.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

FastDDS said:


> So ?
> 1 part mold builder
> 1 part slime ATV/Mower
> 1 RV anti freeze (propylene Glycol)
> ...


1 latex 1 slime 3 RV AF glitter does not work rubber might all discussed 20 posts above. On mobile, so brief.

via Tapatalk


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

I'd been putting it off for awhile, but I finally opened up my front tire for a look:



It's a 2.4 Ardent, and there was no other sign of sealant left in the tire. My other three tires seem to be boogerless.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

newfangled said:


> It's a 2.4 Ardent, and there was no other sign of sealant left in the tire. My other three tires seem to be boogerless.


I give mine a shake every couple weeks to make sure there's still liquid in them. Whether or not the liquid is just green water or actual sealant I don't know. Haven't had any flats so I've either been lucky or it's been working.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

^ I'm using the 1latex/1.5slime/2.5water mix which dries out so fast that the shake-test is pretty useless. So my tires are usually dry, but I carry a 2oz bottle to top off a tire if there's a problem. It's not a great plan, but it works and I figure I can still finish off this batch of sealant. But it means I only check my tires if there's a problem, and of my four tires I think the one with the giant booger was the only one that hadn't needed a top-up.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Ditch the water. RV antifreeze is way better. I am currently testing zero water with so far excellent results. Water evaporates too fast and can evaporate through the sidewall (kind of the way Gore-Tex works. RV antifreeze is, I think, a larger molecule and does not evaporate through the sidewalls as easily.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

yourdaguy said:


> Ditch the water. RV antifreeze is way better. I am currently testing zero water with so far excellent results. Water evaporates too fast and can evaporate through the sidewall (kind of the way Gore-Tex works. RV antifreeze is, I think, a larger molecule and does not evaporate through the sidewalls as easily.


RV antifreeze is a mixture of PG and water, commonly 50/50, so you are using water either way. The cheaper the RV antifreeze the more water is mixed with it.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> Ditch the water.


It was a learning experience, but yes my next batch will definitely use antifreeze. This watery batch is still better than tubes, but it's definitely not a great brew.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

The thing about antifreeze, either PG or EG, is they have a very low vapor pressure - which is what drives evaporation. The higher the vapor pressure, the faster the liquid makes vapor/evaporates.

Vapor pressure of water at 20C = 2.3 kPa (0.33 psi)

VP of EG (or PG) at 50C = 1mmHg (0.019 psi)
VP of H20 at 50C = 12.3 kPa (1.78 psi)

As a thought, perhaps we should try "waterless" - go completely antifreeze. The Slime is 52% Propylene Glycol - the balance being water and chunkulation. So it's maybe 1/4 water or less.

Making WSS without added water beyond the Slime. Hmm. Basically mix latex and slime, then add antifreeze to get the right "liquidity". I need to make a new batch, so I'll try it.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

newfangled said:


> ^ I'm using the 1latex/1.5slime/2.5water mix which dries out so fast that the shake-test is pretty useless. So my tires are usually dry


I usually put between 4 and 6 ounces in each tire so it helps 



yourdaguy said:


> Ditch the water. RV antifreeze is way better. I am currently testing zero water with so far excellent results. Water evaporates too fast and can evaporate through the sidewall


I've used 1:2:2 lates, Slime, water in my first two but my next will use antifreeze.


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## minh (May 23, 2004)

I'm almost gone through my first big batch of WSS (1.0, the original recipe). it worked really really well (even sealed up a big hole caused by a 1/2" long rusty old square nail) but will most likely go with the newest formula when it's time to make another batch. anecdote: I've noticed that it stops sloshing within a week or two (could be more) but still holds air for like 4 months (maybe more?).


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

What I have been using with great success (no flats) for the whole season is pretty close to the above.


1-latex thinned with amonia
1-1.5-slime
~1-glycol to thin the above


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## JStrube (Aug 25, 2011)

OK, Wade, I'll bite. I was going to mix up a brew of WSS 1.0, but instead, I'll mix it up as:

1: Latex
1: SLIME
3: cheap EG (what I have)

I'm only going to make a small batch of this, since it is untested & see how it goes...

Stan's in the rear tire, WSS 3.0 in the front (all EG would be WSS 3.0, right?)
This in a 2011 Epic Comp with orig tires & wheels.

John.


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## JStrube (Aug 25, 2011)

OK, tried it, total failure!

I mixed the EG & SLIME first, then latex. Big ass booger time! Stupid me poured it into the tire before figuring it out. I mixed it using a STAN'S cup & a pizza sauce squeeze bottle to shake it up. It made a huge booger & only the green stuff flowed out.

So, back to WSS 1.0 I went.

Same deal, EG, water, Slime, then latex. It sure seemed pretty thin, but no boogers. Poured it in & filled the tire. I had a problem, I think with the American classic stems. I installed them with the o-ring on the inside & tightened the nut as tight as I could get it with my fingers. It leaked like crazy at the stem, so much that I could not remove the air chuck & rotate it down to shake. It just leaked out.

I think I'll take the remaining WSS 1.0 & put the stem that came with my bike in & have another go at it. I think the American Classic stem's o-ring rode up on the inside of the rim. They are DT SWISS 450SL's.

I basically washed everything off & called it a night.

Is the WSS 1.0 supposed to be pretty thin? I measured it out.

John.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

You are supposed to mix the latex with slime first --ALWAYS.


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## JStrube (Aug 25, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> You are supposed to mix the latex with slime first --ALWAYS.


uh oh.

I somehow misread & thought you mixed thinnest to thickest... So, I started with EG, then Slime, then MB...

Second mix doesn't have boogers, is it still hosed? Should I trash that & start over?

Also, any comments about those American Classic stems? I know I did something wrong, they should have at least partially held air!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> You are supposed to mix the latex with slime first --ALWAYS.


+1 on this - I've had a batch coagulate just like that.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Yes, mix order is thickest first to thinnest consistency last, mentioned above in a few recent posts.

This works for me: dump in all latex, add all slime, and mix until thoroughly blended (and I mean thoroughly blended), I spend 30 minutes at this to get all latex lumps gone, (have beer in reach to assist with patience  ). Then add the antifreeze mix in small portions AS I STIR, until I have all antifreeze blended into mix. \


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

JStrube said:


> uh oh.
> 
> I somehow misread & thought you mixed thinnest to thickest... So, I started with EG, then Slime, then MB...
> 
> ...


If your mix is milky pastel green color, you're good. If it looks like bright green egg drop soup, it's hosed.

Stems: I've always used StanStrips, but have had some stem leaks. Make sure the stem hole is smooth and clean - then tighten that bad boy up! I'd still do hand tight rather than pliers tight, but not just snug. You could always dip it in sealant before you put it in, too.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

JStrube said:


> I had a problem, I think with the American classic stems. I installed them with the o-ring on the inside & tightened the nut as tight as I could get it with my fingers. It leaked like crazy at the stem, so much that I could not remove the air chuck & rotate it down to shake. It just leaked out.


On first installs, add a thin bead of silicon seal on the valve stem o-ring where it seats on the rim. Give it a little time to dry.


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## Space Ranger (Jan 17, 2011)

anyone ever get powdery mold inside the tire? I've had Maxxis and WTB tires form this filth once the liquid dries out. I'm using 2pts h2o, 1pt mold builder and 1pt Slime. I'm going back to using anti-freeze next batch.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Wow this thread is huge. I've been running either WSS 1.0 or 2.0 for the last three years now, year round in Southern Indiana climate. Here's a few of my observations. Note, all of my testing has been done with high volume 29er tires running 4oz of sealant.

1. Boogers, there is no rhyme or reasons to them, but I did seem to get more of them with 2.0 versus 1.0. I have ran a tire for months without opening it and no boogers. And then, I have also ran the same tire for two weeks and got huge boogers. IMHO, all it takes is one small chunk of something and then its a snow ball effect.

2. 2.0 vs. 1.0, I didn't like 2.0. The extra fibers from double the slime cause a thick, slimey layer to form on the inside of the tire, and leaves no fluid left to seal punctures. In my experience, contrary to common sense, this didn't seal punctures as well. Also, if you don't clean the old slimey/dried sealant out of the tire, this can add up to some serious weight really quick. 1.0 is also cheaper to mix.

3. I've noticed that once the sealant had been in a tire for awhile, say more than two months, punctures start weeping a green fluid. The tire still holds air pretty well, but if it sits for a week, any puncture in the tire will have weeped a few drops of fluid. Not sure exactly what is going on here, but my guess is that the latex is starting to dry up.

4. I've started pouring my new sealant batch into smaller individual pint jars instead of leaving it in one big jug. I think it has a longer shelf life this way

5. Rv antifreeze is the way to go for 1.0

6. Use a syringe to inject the sealant through the valve stem after you get the tire beaded.

Obviously nothing scientific here, but I thought I'd post my observations since they are base on halfway long term use.


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## SparxFlyer (Dec 29, 2010)

Given the size of the thread, KTM, can you clarify what you mean by WSS 1.0 Vs. 2.0? 

Is it only a matter of doubling the Slime in the recipe?

Thanks.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Sparxflyer, yep, that's pretty much it. This is how I mixed it:

1.0 - 1 part latex, 1 part slime, 3 parts RV af
2.0 - 1 part latex, 2 part slime, 2 parts RV af


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## JStrube (Aug 25, 2011)

slocaus said:


> Yes, mix order is thickest first to thinnest consistency last, mentioned above in a few recent posts.
> 
> This works for me: dump in all latex, add all slime, and mix until thoroughly blended (and I mean thoroughly blended), I spend 30 minutes at this to get all latex lumps gone, (have beer in reach to assist with patience  ). Then add the antifreeze mix in small portions AS I STIR, until I have all antifreeze blended into mix. \


Excellent, so what is the consistency when you are done? runny, wattery, thick, thin? Should I dump my batch #2, which was shaken in a ketchup bottle & start over with a properly mixed batch?

Anybody have comments on my valves? My problems with those are a bigger issue...


----------



## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

JStrube said:


> Excellent, so what is the consistency when you are done? runny, wattery, thick, thin? Should I dump my batch #2, which was shaken in a ketchup bottle & start over with a properly mixed batch?
> 
> Anybody have comments on my valves? My problems with those are a bigger issue...


A little thicker than Stans, less thick than Slime. Use that as a scale and I would say it is 25% more than Stans and 75% less than Slime.

See Wadester comments on keep or dump what you have.

See my comments on silicon seal and the valves.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

VERY long post. I found a few others wadester has brew on. this was the last one & full of so much info. Not sure which way to go..lol.

think I try this:
1 part latex 
2 part slime 
3 part rv anti 
1/2 tsp modelers rubber grass

does this sound good?


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

WerxRacing said:


> VERY long post. I found a few others wadester has brew on. this was the last one & full of so much info. Not sure which way to go..lol.
> 
> think I try this:
> 1 part latex
> ...


Sounds runny.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

stumblemumble said:


> Sounds runny.


Yea, I was wondering if I sould skip the water do to the idea of using the rv anti' . I think we should just have a DIY stick with out the chats. we have that on a focus site I'm on & a turbo bike site a frnd & I have. for this or any other great mod ideas..

this is jst a idea but this link is from the focus site to give an example. this could help people get ifno more with out the chatter.

* * * * C o m p l e t e ' H o w T o ' A r c h i v e * * * * - Focus Fanatics


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

WerxRacing said:


> VERY long post. I found a few others wadester has brew on. this was the last one & full of so much info. Not sure which way to go..lol.
> 
> think I try this:
> s1 part latex
> ...





ktm520 said:


> Wow this thread is huge. I've been running either WSS 1.0 or 2.0 for the last three years now, year round in Southern Indiana climate. Here's a few of my observations. Note, all of my testing has been done with high volume 29er tires running 4oz of sealant.
> 
> 1. Boogers, there is no rhyme or reasons to them, but I did seem to get more of them with 2.0 versus 1.0. I have ran a tire for months without opening it and no boogers. And then, I have also ran the same tire for two weeks and got huge boogers. IMHO, all it takes is one small chunk of something and then its a snow ball effect.
> 
> ...


 So I may go 1.0 but try the modeler grass for more rubber beads. Since you been at it for a few yrs & test it for this area.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So now may try this mix idea:
1 part latex 
1 part slime 
3 part rv anti 
1/2 tsp modelers rubber grass


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

stumblemumble said:


> Sounds runny.


ok. i removed the water & removed one part of the slime.


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## 2fst4u (Dec 2, 2006)

Hey guys, I've been using wadsters brew for about 3 years for XC racing and the trail. The is the best formula that works for me= 

1 latex 1 automotive slime 1 antifreeze and 2 water. 

This has worked with several 26inch tire combo's including kenda karma's, crows and race kings. It also works great on my karma 29ers.

I've also taken the slime bottle and rigged it with flexible tubing and use it to squirt it into the wheel without taking off the tire-works prefect.

On my road bike with tubes I unscrew the presta valve and make sure the core doesn't fall into the tube and squirt 1-2 oz in for flat protection-not one flat this whole year!


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

Picked up my stuff today to make WSS 1.0. 
But plan on a small change to the mix

1 part latex mbldr, 8oz
1 part slime plus, 8oz plus 4oz I have left over from past wrk
3 parts RV Anti. , 24oz
1 tbls modeler grass, 4 tbls for this mix

I am hoping this is a good mix


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

What does the modeler grass do that the Slime can't? Is it much larger chunks than in the Slime? It's an interesting idea. Hopefully, better than the glitter one


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

U can get all sizes of modeler grass. I got T44. I is latex & i think it will help like the rubber n the slime. Help more than the glitter I think. I may get larger later. But this is what I picked for my first try. Also I can always add larger grass later.


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## coop355 (Aug 28, 2011)

Would anybody be willing to sell & ship me some of their working homebrew mix? I need enough for several tires. Say about 1pt - 1qt. or so. Please email me at cooperhouse2004(at)yahoo.com Thank you!


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## Gulf of Texas (May 17, 2010)

Has anyone tried table salt in their mix instead of beads and glittery stuff?


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## JStrube (Aug 25, 2011)

You might as well try blue food coloring...


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Gulf of Texas said:


> Has anyone tried table salt in their mix instead of beads and glittery stuff?


Table salt would dissolve in the water, and make the mix much more corrosive.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I think you get some pretty interesting gasses when mixing salt and ammonia if I remember.


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## Gulf of Texas (May 17, 2010)

Yeah, I'm no chemist, I just thought the salt grains might work for growing clots. What about fine sand? 

I like the idea of tubeless, but I'm scared it will just be a goopy mess, so I am trying to read up on it before trying it.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The sealant works pretty well as is. Everything except the little specks of stuff in Slime seems to cause balling up. Glitter and many other things have been tried with little success. Obviously, if you have a huge hole, nothing would work.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> The sealant works pretty well as is. Everything except the little specks of stuff in Slime seems to cause balling up. Glitter and many other things have been tried with little success. Obviously, if you have a huge hole, nothing would work.


So far I got bigger koosh balls with Stan's than my WSS mix. I still wonder about the silica beads idea, someone mentioned them, don't remember seeing that anyone tried it. Seems like a big chunk would let a bigger hole 1/8" - 1/4" seal with some reliability, maybe not.


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## BORDERCOLLIE (Sep 1, 2011)

max_cat said:


> After running tubeless three years, I think I have tried all the different sealant types. My unscientific conclusion, if the main goal is flat protection, stan's is the best. Unfortunately, it dries up and thus builds up in the tire. To get at this problem, I have heard all kind of homemade combinations of the different tubeless product to get at a best brew of flat protection plus longevity. The latest sounded interesting superjuice with glitter. The theory is that the glitter provide better sealing protection. This sounded like little bit of a stretch to me, but at least if it came spewing out on you during a race, you would be looking good! Anybody want to throw out their experience in coming up with the "ultimate" homemade sealant brew for the rest of us to try?


 just buy slime pro tubeless...slime pro tubeless ,hard to come by, as in cannot buy at walmart, online only? I went 15 months without a flat.the tires wore out before the slime did, seals instantly unlike stans that pisses out stans quite a bit until it seals, slime seals instantly.:ihih: I run tubeless ready or ust tires only.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

BORDERCOLLIE said:


> just buy slime pro tubeless...slime pro tubeless ,hard to come by, as in cannot buy at walmart, online only? I went 15 months without a flat.the tires wore out before the slime did, seals instantly unlike stans that pisses out stans quite a bit until it seals, slime seals instantly.:ihih: I run tubeless ready or ust tires only.


I live 20 miles from the Slime headquarters, know racers who are sponsored by Slime, know many testers for Slime. You can get it in any bike shop here of course. WSS works better, and *costs much less*, unless Slime give you free product, but WSS still works better. 

I have about four years tubeless now, regular tires non TLR or UST, with only one time that I had to spend 15 minutes nursing a puncture to seal. I had a puncture earlier this week with WSS that I found when I got home (I ride from home with trails 2-3 miles away), because I had sealant on the back of my leg, the left seat and chain stays, and seat tube; never knew it happened, never slowed down. WSS is good. :thumbsup:


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## BORDERCOLLIE (Sep 1, 2011)

slocaus said:


> I live 20 miles from the Slime headquarters, know racers who are sponsored by Slime, know many testers for Slime. You can get it in any bike shop here of course. WSS works better, and *costs much less*, unless Slime give you free product, but WSS still works better.
> 
> I have about four years tubeless now, regular tires non TLR or UST, with only one time that I had to spend 15 minutes nursing a puncture to seal. I had a puncture earlier this week with WSS that I found when I got home (I ride from home with trails 2-3 miles away), because I had sealant on the back of my leg, the left seat and chain stays, and seat tube; never knew it happened, never slowed down. WSS is good. :thumbsup:


 much less?..how you figure that? have even tried slime pro? it dries out much slower, so the price is worth it to me, no LBS here has it in stock.I used stans for about Five years before switching over to slime pro tubeless, not going back to any other sealant, works great for me so I can spend less time fussin round I have been running UST wheels since 04.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

BORDERCOLLIE said:


> much less?..how you figure that?


My 80 oz jar of WSS cost me just under $25 (*$0.32 / oz*), Slime Pro goes for $16 to $19 for 16 oz (*$1.00+ / oz*). So my WSS is *1/3 the cost per ounce*.

I have seen others running Slime Pro having to put a tube in riding through goat head areas when I just see a moist spot on my tire. And, I run 29ers, regular tires, so no extra cost (and weight) for UST tires and wheels. I am way ahead in money saved. :thumbsup:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Yea and you don't have to buy UST rims/wheels either.


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## BORDERCOLLIE (Sep 1, 2011)

UST has a locking bead, other tubeless wheels are fine too as they have a different type (patent) of locking bead/wheel interface.That makes for a safer setup, it does tend to mimic automotive wheels where a locking bead and lack of tube are the norm.I have NEVER flatted out with goat head punctures, of course I avoid goat head areas which tend to be a lower elevations.I still am not reading here if anyone has actually tried slime pro tubeless? the reason I run tubeless wheels is that I do have a bit of extra money and I do think from a safety standpoint they offer an advantage, to each his own. 'boogers'? that's dried up sealant...right? slime pro used for 14 months....no 'boogers':thumbsup: I can see why one would choose ghetto set up, typically more of a fuss factor, hence the huge amount of posts here in regards to what works? nice thread, just sharing my thoughts on the subject. UST heavy? have a look at top end Mavic wheels weight, or stans rims.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

What 29er UST certified wheels and tires do you run, there are only a couple of each?

All my wheels are Stan's with yellow tape and valves. I just started to make my own sealant brew for better sealing, less evaporation, and less cost.


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## BORDERCOLLIE (Sep 1, 2011)

let me clarify, of my four bikes my 29er has mavic UST wheels and python tubeless ready tires with slime pro, tubeless ready has bead lock tech.My other three run 26" UST.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Well UST wheels and tires cost way more than any sealant. Stans, folding tires, WSS is the overall cheapest way to go tubeless.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

BORDERCOLLIE said:


> let me clarify, of my four bikes my 29er has mavic UST wheels and python tubeless ready tires with slime pro, tubeless ready has bead lock tech.My other three run 26" UST.


So slime pro works really well in ust wheels and tires that don't require sealant? 

Have you tried WSS?


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

coop355 said:


> Would anybody be willing to sell & ship me some of their working homebrew mix? I need enough for several tires. Say about 1pt - 1qt. or so. Please email me at cooperhouse2004(at)yahoo.com Thank you!


Sure... I'd be happy to send you the formula I've been using successfully for the past eight years with a variety of tires (just rode it to third in a local cat. 1 xc race, in fact in a pair of Schwalbe Racing Ralphs). I'd need to charge you $9 to cover materials, plus shipping, which would be about $6, so figure $15. I'll e-mail you...


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## BORDERCOLLIE (Sep 1, 2011)

bsieb said:


> So slime pro works really well in ust wheels and tires that don't require sealant?
> 
> Have you tried WSS?


 yep, UST tires minimal air leak air so adding sealant is extra insurance,does not mean they are puncture proof, tubeless ready tires have to be used with sealant as they do tend to leak and thats what the tire maker recommends.non tube type tires can be converted with whatever however it takes alot of patience to get it right, Tubeless offers bead lock technology


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## BORDERCOLLIE (Sep 1, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> Well UST wheels and tires cost way more than any sealant. Stans, folding tires, WSS is the overall cheapest way to go tubeless.


 how about bead lock tech? UST much less likely to 'burp' or come off the rim, that in my opinion is not what ghetto tubeless can offer.SLX tubeless can be had for about $320.00.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Stan's, 4 wheelsets, thousands of miles, many brands of folding tires, very low pressures (down to 20 psi). Never a burp, never a tire coming off the rim and if you calculate the money saved and the weight savings they are priceless. 1 set of Tubeless rims and tubeless tires. No burps there either, but the tires are heavy, slow and cost more. What's to like?

While we are on the subject, I like wider rims and going forward I am only buying wider rims. I see very few options for those that want Tubless rims that are also wide. Just another reason I am sticking with Stans and similar.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Speaking of wide rims, I've been running a set of Velocity P35 (35mm wide) 29er rims for two years now and they have worked flawlessly tubeless. All I've ran are non-tubeless tires. The bead seat profile is very similar (if not the same) as Stans rims. I have ran the tires as low as 10psi in the snow without any burping or rolling.


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## BORDERCOLLIE (Sep 1, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> Stan's, 4 wheelsets, thousands of miles, many brands of folding tires, very low pressures (down to 20 psi). Never a burp, never a tire coming off the rim and if you calculate the money saved and the weight savings they are priceless. 1 set of Tubeless rims and tubeless tires. No burps there either, but the tires are heavy, slow and cost more. What's to like?
> 
> While we are on the subject, I like wider rims and going forward I am only buying wider rims. I see very few options for those that want Tubless rims that are also wide. Just another reason I am sticking with Stans and similar.


 UST tire weights have come down some, it is interesting to note that downhill pros use UST setups on really gnarly courses....why do you suppose? tubeless ready has bead lock tech AND lighter weights.I am aware that X-country racers use uber light set ups with non tubeless tires, for me thats not reliable enough for a trail bike. I have had success with Pythons with Stans conversion, then stans un- reccomended them, check out his list of "approved tires?:skep:.To me the frustration with ghetto was having some tires of the same brand work, and others not, thousands of microleaks in sidewalls that were difficult if not impossible to seal.Seems some use a very light non tubeless tire then add the weight of sealant, I really do not sweat a 100 g of weight using a tubeless/tubeless ready tire, I do not race so no big deal,my hardtail trailbike comes in a 26 lbs with tubeless.I just rather ride then mess with conversions, anyway hope everyone has a great ride today


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Well I could care less what DH pros use on gnarly courses, I ride XC on a rigid singlespeed. My four years riding tubeless trumps your "feelings" about what is safe, at least for me, and I haven't experienced your frustration either, maybe you need more experience. I do have a great golden autumn ride planned for today on my flaky non-ust ghetto tubeless tires with homebrew sealant. :thumbsup:


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## Gulf of Texas (May 17, 2010)

Here's a commercial product for dirt bikes, 57ct/oz after free shipping, says it lasts the life of the tire.

Tire Seal 16 oz QB

QuadBoss Tire Seal 8 oz to 55 gallon drums available lol.


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## 5titusguy (Jan 14, 2008)

I have used the silica beads, I use just a small amount hoping they will fill the big stuff,,,, after time and everything dries out they are kinda messy. Once they are in the tire I don't add more with more juice, they stay put. I think its just one more level of protection.....


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## Roadiebiker-m.g (Oct 24, 2011)

Some more ideas to this thread. Havent tried it yet, will do soon though. Instead of using windscreen washer which is glycol (or ethylene/propolyne Glycol) how about Gylcerin. very similar properties, but not toxic and widely available. As for a filler, glassfibre mat finely cut, carbon fibre if you have spare scraps, its a bit coarser, dont breath it in though.

Is there a homebrew lube thread? People get proper stroppy about that, espeically when they are defending paying £25/litre for it.

P.S Hello! (first post)


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Not to hijack a 23 page thread, but I buy Tri-Fow Industrial lubricant by the gallon. While it is not cheap, it works out to way less than $2 for the 4 ounces it takes to fill up my Pro-Link Gold bottle that originally cost about 4 times as much. It also seems to work even better. My chains last at least as long and seem to be less likely to rust if caught in a rain and put away wet. I have been using it on all 10 of my bikes for 4-5 years now and still have about a quart left. I use it for chains, cables, pivot points, etc.

When I bought mine I think the landed cost was around $60, but it looks like it might be slightly higher now with shipping.
http://www.industrialsafety.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=A1-KRYTF26020


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## CrozCountry (Mar 18, 2011)

Hi folks, I have a full bottle of Stans. Is it possible to dilute it so it lasts longer? Add some water or anti freeze?
Home brew sounds good but I already have the stans here. I will probably do it when this bottle runs out.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Dilute Stans with homebrew.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

CrozCountry said:


> Hi folks, I have a full bottle of Stans. Is it possible to dilute it so it lasts longer? Add some water or anti freeze?
> Home brew sounds good but I already have the stans here. I will probably do it when this bottle runs out.


I've always thought that part of the problem with Stans is how dilute it is. Homebrew mix gives you more latex/chunkulation and less liquid.

So: 
Use up Stans, switch to homebrew.
Make homebrew, pitch in leftover Stans.

YMMV


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## JohnDoe (Dec 11, 2009)

Gotta say thanks for all the info on this thread. So far I've had good luck with V2 secret sauce. Tubeless is definitely a vast improvement.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

*WSS and DIY Studs*

I couldn't find much info online about whether a tubeless conversion of DIY studded tires would work so I thought I would give it a try (click on any of the images for fullsize):

Tires are wirebead Maxxis Ignitor 29x2.1




Studs are 120 6x3/8" self-drilling screws


Gorillatape rimstrip with cannibalized presta valvestem 


Sealant is WSS. I just poured it right in. Someone had suggested lining the tire with gorillatape, but without a tube in there there's nothing to keep the tape pressed against the tire so it would just flop around and wouldn't really help.


Airing it up tubeless was as easy as any tubeless setup I've ever done. 


After setup I took it for a spin around my parking garage, including popping the front and back wheels a few times. There was very little weeping from the studs - maybe a dozen per tire had sealant visible, but the rest were clean.


When I finished the setup I was doing some other work on my bike, and every so often one of the studs would suddenly start audibly leaking air. It happened maybe twice per tire, and pretty randomly like after they'd been aired up for 10 or 20 minutes. Giving the tire a quick shake to slosh the sealant around stopped the leaks. My first ride around the garage also caused a few leaks, but they sealed up after a quick spin.

So this is still an experiment but at this point it's turned out better than expected. I've got to give it a few days to see if it holds air, and I'll probably take it for a short ride tomorrow to see how things go after a km or two. Probably won't get to test them on snow for at least another week.

If anyone is wondering why bother with this, it's basically because there aren't a lot of studded tires for 29ers - 700c tires are too narrow for what I want, and the Nokian 29er gets pretty middling reviews for such a pricey tire. I could see myself buying the new Schwalbe Ice Spiker Pro 29er at some point, but it's brandnew and isn't readily available, and it's also super expensive. So DIY studs are my best option right now, and running tubeless will hopefully avoid the problem of the studs popping the tube or having to use tireliners.


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## dimitrin (Nov 23, 2008)

Good job getting the studs through the knobbies. I hope it holds up for you. I'd probably keep pavement riding to a minimum.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Ignitor with the pentagonal knobs is the perfect tire to try this experiment on. Keep us informed on the scientific results.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

Tubeless studs Update #1

Went for a quick 8km loop on the road, with a few little curbdrops and stuff. The pressures are holding, but I noticed that one stud on the rear has backed itself into the tire so far that it's almost completely invisible. It's the only one like that, but it looks like some of the others have sunk in a bit too. So I might have to ditch the tubeless and resort to a tire liner and tubes after all, but I'm going to give it a few more test rides to see how things go.

Edited to add:

I took the tires off to see what was going on. Here is the screw that's backed itself all the way into the tire:


There was only one like that, but there were quite a few others that had backed in a mm or two:


I've got some time to play around with this, so I think that I may back all the screws off a bit, add a drop of contact cement to the threads, and then re-tighten them and let them dry. I'm hoping maybe that might provide just enough resistance to hold them in place? Failing that, I'll have to go with tubes.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I am still hoping this works, but the design of studs is not the same as screws.


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## multistrada (Feb 6, 2011)

*How much to mix up - Please give me a reference point*



2fst4u said:


> Hey guys, I've been using wadsters brew for about 3 years for XC racing and the trail. The is the best formula that works for me=
> 
> 1 latex 1 automotive slime 1 antifreeze and 2 water.
> 
> ...


------------
I"m ready to pull the trigger but am curious about how much to mix up at 1 time? Could you please provide me a rough estimate of how much to fix up if i want to do four(4) 29er tires...for example? (Or pick a volume that you currently use so that i can use it as a reference)
Thanks in advance!!!


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

I mix up batches in 24oz slime bottles. That way they are nice and convenient to store and transport.


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## multistrada (Feb 6, 2011)

rupps5 said:


> I mix up batches in 24oz slime bottles. That way they are nice and convenient to store and transport.


Thanks - How many tires will that batch typically service?


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

24oz would fill 6-8 tires using 3oz -4oz per tire.


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## multistrada (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks Rupps5!


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

Silly question, but can anyone recommend a tool for removing presta valve cores? I carry a small adjustable wrench in my emergency kit, but it's kind of gigantic for that purpose and it doesn't really work very well. Is there anything small and handy like the remover for schrader cores (that I also carry in my kit)?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Well some brands of cores on some tubes are not readily removable, but I use the Stan's tool for my tubeless cores and the tubes that allow removal. It can get some really tight ones that been glued in with sealant, etc.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

newfangled said:


> Silly question, but can anyone recommend a tool for removing presta valve cores? I carry a small adjustable wrench in my emergency kit, but it's kind of gigantic for that purpose and it doesn't really work very well. Is there anything small and handy like the remover for schrader cores (that I also carry in my kit)?


Shimano Spoke Wrench, the open end fits the presta flats perfectly, at least for NoTubes stems. It probably works on all, but I do not know if the size is standard or not. You know how standards are on bikes! :nono:


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

I knew there must be an easy answer, but I didn't realize that the stan's tool did presta cores too. For my schraders I've just been using the cap from a slime bottle.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Stan is the man. The Stan's tool does presta and Schrader and is really hand for adjusting Schrader's like on shocks that have to be at the right height to work with shock pumps, etc. It is a simple tool, but well worth the price.

Slocuaus- I never knew that about the Shimano wrench and since I actually carry one of those in my tool kit since most of my rode bikes use Shimanoe wheels ( I don't like their 29er wheels though) I am sure that the information will prove invaluable sometime when I or a buddy is broke down in the middle of nowhere.


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## mecam (Feb 1, 2006)

Will the Party City liquid latex work?

Liquid Latex - Party City

-


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

mecam said:


> Will the Party City liquid latex work?
> 
> Liquid Latex*- Party City
> 
> -


i would ready it & compare it. i have the mold builder. i can go buy the party city stuff. compare & post tmrw. then i can return the stuff party city. so no cost but learn something maybe.


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## mecam (Feb 1, 2006)

Ok, will test the following.... 

1 part RV Antifreeze (from AutoZone or Kragen)
1 part Liquid Latex (from Party City)
1 part Slime Auto (from AutoZone or Kragen)
1.5 parts water (from your faucet)
1 pinch full of fine & extra fine glitter (from Michael's Art Store)


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Ditch the glitter-see previous threads. It causes clumps or burgers. The latex is probably ok if it uses ammonia as the solvent.


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## mecam (Feb 1, 2006)

yourdaguy said:


> Ditch the glitter-see previous threads. It causes clumps or burgers.


Ok, sounds good. I'll get my $5 back. Thx. :thumbsup:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Guess I can't spell boogers.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

@mecam, I'd cut back on the water since you probably have water in the latex mix and the RV antifreeze is 50/50 with water. I'd start with two and mix it first, you can add more if too thick. No way to fix it if too thin.


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## mecam (Feb 1, 2006)

slocaus said:


> @mecam, I'd cut back on the water since you probably have water in the latex mix and the RV antifreeze is 50/50 with water. I'd start with two and mix it first, you can add more if too thick. No way to fix it if too thin.


Yeah, was thinking about that. I'll do that then. Thx.


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## mecam (Feb 1, 2006)

*Ok I mixed 1 part of RV Antifreeze, 1 part Slime Auto, and 1 part Liquid Latex and see how this works. It seems to have the same viscosity as Stan's or maybe a tad milkier.*










*
This is what is on the back of Party City's Liquid Latex bottle.*


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## multistrada (Feb 6, 2011)

Is there any preference over time for Brands of Liquid Latex? 
i.e. Castin Craft Mold Builder, Party City's Fun World Brand or other


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## tudrewser (Oct 27, 2011)

After 3 days of reading I've finally finished the thread. Thank you to all who contributed! I bought my supplies during the beginning of the thread but am glad I kept reading...went from anti-freeze, to no anti-freeze, back to anti-freeze, adding glitter and then not adding glitter, etc. Going with WSS 2.0 with all RV AF. Even found a 50% off coupon for Michael's for the mold builder thanks to some helpful posts. Only concern is the tires are a little old and may not seal well...guess we'll see.

One question though. Haven't heard much about split tube setup lately. It's the route I'm planning on taking because it seems to me it will seal the best and avoids any sealant on my rims. But has this now been ditched for the Stan's strips? I understand the complications of splitting the bead to look inside but not worried about that. Just seems like I'd get a better seal with the bead sealing on the rubber split tube. Thoughts?


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## tudrewser (Oct 27, 2011)

multistrada said:


> Is there any preference over time for Brands of Liquid Latex?
> i.e. Castin Craft Mold Builder, Party City's Fun World Brand or other


FWIW, the most common liquid latex I've seen used in the thread (and I just read the whole thing over the last few days) is Castin'Craft Mold Builder...got mine at Michaels, and others have gotten theirs at Hobby Lobby. And be sure to google for a coupon first, like "50% off any single item".


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

tudrewser said:


> After 3 days of reading I've finally finished the thread. Thank you to all who contributed! I bought my supplies during the beginning of the thread but am glad I kept reading...went from anti-freeze, to no anti-freeze, back to anti-freeze, adding glitter and then not adding glitter, etc. Going with WSS 2.0 with all RV AF. Even found a 50% off coupon for Michael's for the mold builder thanks to some helpful posts. Only concern is the tires are a little old and may not seal well...guess we'll see.
> 
> One question though. Haven't heard much about split tube setup lately. It's the route I'm planning on taking because it seems to me it will seal the best and avoids any sealant on my rims. But has this now been ditched for the Stan's strips? I understand the complications of splitting the bead to look inside but not worried about that. Just seems like I'd get a better seal with the bead sealing on the rubber split tube. Thoughts?


Unnecessarily complicated and heavy for XC, IMO. One layer of Gorilla tape ripped to width and lapped a couple of inches at the stem hole then X cut, and a tubeless or removable core stem is simpler. Don't add sealant til you have dry inflated and seated the beads. Inflate overnight with a tube if it doesn't want to inflate. Good luck!


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## tudrewser (Oct 27, 2011)

bsieb said:


> Unnecessarily complicated and heavy for XC, IMO. One layer of Gorilla tape ripped to width and lapped a couple of inches at the stem hole then X cut, and a tubeless or removable core stem is simpler. Don't add sealant til you have dry inflated and seated the beads. Inflate overnight with a tube if it doesn't want to inflate. Good luck!


Interesting...so no real benefits have been seen IYO in relation to tape vs. tube? As far as weight savings, I'm about 30 lbs overweight riding a 35lb bike, so I feel a little silly shedding a few oz on my bike thinking it will make a difference. Heck, maybe the extra weight will cause me to lose even more myself...so a net loss!

I'm a total beginner but doing this for goathead protection more than anything. However, I do hope that as I try to get in shape that MB'ing will help me in the health category too.


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## tudrewser (Oct 27, 2011)

Mixed up my first batch using WSS 2.0 with RV AF. Seems like the right consistency compared to everyone else's pics, holds everything in suspension. Filled the 24oz Slime bottle and a 36oz Mason jar to the brim each, which is just about perfect!


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

Well I went to Party City. We do not even have latex to at ours. Go figure. lol I hope it works out for you mecam. Keep us posted if you can. if it works that is a 7.oo saving . Mold builder here at hobby lobby or micheals is 16.99


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

It looks like the Party City stuff is pourable, whereas mold builder is paste. Still might be a deal $7 vs $17. Depends on how watery the PC stuff is.


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

I did a pint of each
slime
latex
rv anti freeze

i also added a half pint of water which may have ben a bad idea. it seems a bit too watery. my tire has sealed fine though but i have a feeling it wont hold because the latex is too watered down. ive never seen stans so i have nothing to compare to.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

tudrewser said:


> Interesting...so no real benefits have been seen IYO in relation to tape vs. tube? As far as weight savings, I'm about 30 lbs overweight riding a 35lb bike, so I feel a little silly shedding a few oz on my bike thinking it will make a difference. Heck, maybe the extra weight will cause me to lose even more myself...so a net loss!
> 
> I'm a total beginner but doing this for goathead protection more than anything. However, I do hope that as I try to get in shape that MB'ing will help me in the health category too.


Started with Stans fluid and ghetto split tube. It was ok, but plenty of blow offs in attempted setup; my theory is that the tube keeps the tire from seating into the rim seat properly.

Moved to all Stans, rims, goop, yellow tape, valves. Works well, reliable.

Have now moved to WSS 2.0 and gorilla tape, primarily cost savings, longer lasting in hot dry climates. I have Stans rims and valves, but the gorilla tape sticks better, takes less time to seal to rim so no leaks around spoke holes, and less cost.

Win win :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

kikoraa said:


> I did a pint of each
> slime
> latex
> rv anti freeze
> ...


A thicker mix is not better in my experience, you could probably add another pint/pint and a half of RV mix. Thicker dries out faster...


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have totally done away with water in favor of RV antifreeze. The mix seems to last longer and seal faster. There is already some water in the mold builder, Slime and RV antifreeze so the mix still has water in it, just a lower percentage.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> I have totally done away with water in favor of RV antifreeze. The mix seems to last longer and seal faster. There is already some water in the mold builder, Slime and RV antifreeze so the mix still has water in it, just a lower percentage.


Agreed, skip the extra water :thumbsup:, most RV ATF is 50/50 already.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

3 RV antifreeze instead of 1 eg antifreeze and 2 water...


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## tudrewser (Oct 27, 2011)

Went tubeless on my front tire last night but the gorilla tape version didn't work for me.  My tube is a thicker tube and I think the beads kind of sat like a V in the rim instead of like a U, so I couldn't get it to seal. Went split tube and it sealed right up. My rim does have a lip, and the tube has a thick bead...just wouldn't sit. Which is a bummer, because I liked how 1" of gorilla tape fit so perfectly. Went ahead and left the tape in as my rim strip.

Once I got the tire mounted and fluid in, it sealed up and held air overnight, losing about 5lbs of pressure. Reinflated and rode it a bit this morning and seems to be good. Only thing is I don't hear anything sloshing around in the tube...maybe it's not thin enough? Seems to seal but I even added a couple more ounces and still don't hear anything in there. FWIW, it's abou t the consistency of coffee creamer.



> It looks like the Party City stuff is pourable, whereas mold builder is paste. Still might be a deal $7 vs $17. Depends on how watery the PC stuff is.


My mold builder from Michaels was pourable...real thick, but pourable, but had to scrape out the sides. I also reached to the back of the shelf and got the highest lot number so that it was freshest...don't know if that matters. $9 with my 50% off coupon.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

tudrewser said:


> Went tubeless on my front tire last night but the gorilla tape version didn't work for me. My tube is a thicker tube and I think the beads kind of sat like a V in the rim instead of like a U, so I couldn't get it to seal. Went split tube and it sealed right up. My rim does have a lip, and the tube has a thick bead...just wouldn't sit. Which is a bummer, because I liked how 1" of gorilla tape fit so perfectly. Went ahead and left the tape in as my rim strip.
> 
> If you had inflated the tire with a tube overnight you may have had better luck.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:


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## tudrewser (Oct 27, 2011)

bsieb said:


> If you had inflated the tire with a tube overnight you may have had better luck.


Yeah, I did this for 8-10 hours...maybe not long enough? It's not a new tire...probably original to bike AFAIK (just bought it a couple months ago used to replace mine, which was stolen) but should have been pretty well formed to the rim. And the G-tape seemed to really be sealing well. Dunno.

And thx for the confirmation on no sloshing...i'm just going to trust it, and add stuff every 4 months or so, since I can't split the bead with the split tube method


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

tudrewser said:


> Yeah, I did this for 8-10 hours...maybe not long enough? It's not a new tire...probably original to bike AFAIK (just bought it a couple months ago used to replace mine, which was stolen) but should have been pretty well formed to the rim. And the G-tape seemed to really be sealing well. Dunno.
> 
> And thx for the confirmation on no sloshing...i'm just going to trust it, and add stuff every 4 months or so, since I can't split the bead with the split tube method


Yeah, used tires are hit or miss at best, more so the older they are.

You CAN pull a bead back on a split tube setup too. Once things are in place for awhile they seem to go back and inflate easily. Only pull back enough to see in there, maybe 10" of bead. You can work the bead back on the bead seat by gently pulling the sidewall out before re-inflating, not always necessary but some even install new tires this way and avoid using a compressor for the initial inflation.

I imagine you noticed a difference in the ride...


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## tudrewser (Oct 27, 2011)

bsieb said:


> I imagine you noticed a difference in the ride...


Indeed. I had planned on running just my front tubeless for a while to see how it went since I just put a new tube in my back. However, converting the back may be happening sooner rather than later now... :thumbsup:


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## multistrada (Feb 6, 2011)

Has anyone added Home brew to an existing Stans prepped system? For example i"ve got a bike with Stans already in the tires. Has anyone played around with what occurs when or if you mixed the two? 

Perhaps a Ghostbusters situation where they where warned not to cross the streams" 

"There's something very important I forgot to tell you! Don't cross the streams… It would be bad… Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light." Egon Spengler/Harold Ramis on crossing proton streams
.


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

This made me lol


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

Ok I said I did the split tube on my front wheel last night and the gorilla tape on the rear today. Gorilla tape is def cleaner and waaaayyyyyy easier to seat the bead. Both tires are holding air just fine so after seeing both methods work I have decided to stick with the gorilla tape thank you all for this amazingly informative thread!

Wheelset- mavic tn 719
Tires- schwalbe albert 2.1

Mix
1 part latex
1 part rv Af
1 part slime
.5 part water


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## sonnylowe (Feb 14, 2008)

Wow...lots of great info here, can wait to try it out...thanks!!!


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

1" tape covered whole rim valley up to the tip of bead hooks


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## tudrewser (Oct 27, 2011)

kikoraa said:


> Ok I said I did the split tube on my front wheel last night and the gorilla tape on the rear today. Gorilla tape is def cleaner and waaaayyyyyy easier to seat the bead. Both tires are holding air just fine so after seeing both methods work I have decided to stick with the gorilla tape thank you all for this amazingly informative thread!


Ok, now I'm questioning if I screwed something up, because for me it was way easier seating the bead with split tube (or at least getting a seal). Should the gorilla tape only cover the bottom of the rim, or should it go up the sides so that the bead is sitting on the tape to seal? Maybe it was just my tires...


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## tudrewser (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh, and my front wheel held pressure for 24 hours only losing maybe 1 psi. Went for a ride this morning and it worked wonderfully. Actually taking it out on trails this weekend so we'll see what happens. Now I'm itching to do the rear wheel...


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

tudrewser said:


> Ok, now I'm questioning if I screwed something up, because for me it was way easier seating the bead with split tube (or at least getting a seal). Should the gorilla tape only cover the bottom of the rim, or should it go up the sides so that the bead is sitting on the tape to seal? Maybe it was just my tires...


Just the bottom. There are hooks in the rim beads and corresponding seats in the tire bead that need to mesh. Using split tube that ends up between those two points was my issue and caused blow offs, I believe. Gorilla tape (Stans too) just seals the spoke holes in the bottom of the rim and leaves the bead seat interface alone, a good, nay great, thing.


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## tudrewser (Oct 27, 2011)

slocaus said:


> Just the bottom. There are hooks in the rim beads and corresponding seats in the tire bead that need to mesh. Using split tube that ends up between those two points was my issue and caused blow offs, I believe. Gorilla tape (Stans too) just seals the spoke holes in the bottom of the rim and leaves the bead seat interface alone, a good, nay great, thing.


Good info. Then I'm convinced it's the angle of the beads on my particular tires when they're in the rim that keeps the gorilla tape mod from working. Dangit. Aw well.


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## knutso (Oct 8, 2008)

Nailed my 2.4 conti MTNKing and 2.1 Michelin Racer to Stans arches first try with a floor pump

tested them down a thorny line and had no issue but to pull the thornz out when I got home and ride a bit to seal the holes

THANKS ALL for the best tubeless brew !

1 Latex mold builder
1 Tire slime
3 RV anti freeze

3-4ozs each tire


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

OH, you all that do getto tubless conversion using Gorilla tape. I jst found that they now have it in a 1" (1x30)wide for 3.00. better than a 2"wide(2x50) for 15.00. you could buy 4 of these & get more than a big roll. but still pay less. Also keeps you from cutting it in half & dealing with trying to keep it from the floor or sticking to it self.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Ahem... small starter cut at whatever width you want, just rip it off the roll. :thumbsup:


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

WerxRacing said:


> I jst found that they now have it in a 1" wide for 3.00. better than a 2"wide for 15.00. you would buy 4 of these to equal the same to a big roll. but still pay less.


Length the same on 1" and 2"? :skep:

I get three to four rims out of the 2" tape, since I need less than an inch width on Arches.

Just tear it like @bseid says. :thumbsup:


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

that is what i did get was the 2inch. i found this after. i was thinking for the price. you do not have to cut & can buy 2 rolls still cost less that a 2 inch one. but was just a thought.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

WerxRacing said:


> that is what i did get was the 2inch. i found this after. i was thinking for the price. you do not have to cut & can buy 2 rolls still cost less that a 2 inch one. but was just a thought.


I bet the one inch roll is shorter in length.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Actually, they make the 2" rolls in 2 lengths. For overall cost per square inch, the large 2" roll is the best deal, but if the 1" matches your rims, the extra cost is negotiable for the convenience.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

Question about compressors?

I just did a standard footpump setup again, and it worked okay but it took longer that I would have liked (and much longer than it did two weeks ago when I mounted the same tire on the same rim). I know all the tricks, and can always get it to work eventually, but I was thinking a compressor might be handy just to make initial tubeless setups more predictable. 

Will one of those little $50~$75 compressors from walmart have enough flow for a tubeless setup, or do you need a fullsized one?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Does it have a tank? If it is just one of those 12 volt ones that you carry in a car, it won't be much better than a good hand pump.


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

Get a presta-schrader adapter and take it to a gas station. Use that and make sure the bead sits(lube with winded if you have trouble). Then fill it up high and watch for the bubbles. Rotate the wheel around and make sure the sealant gets to those bubbly areas. Shake it around a bit. Fill it up some more if it lost ablot of air. May take a couple trys but moving the sealant around should get all those bubbly areas. 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

Lube with windex, not "winded"

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

newfangled said:


> Question about compressors?
> 
> I just did a standard footpump setup again, and it worked okay but it took longer that I would have liked (and much longer than it did two weeks ago when I mounted the same tire on the same rim). I know all the tricks, and can always get it to work eventually, but I was thinking a compressor might be handy just to make initial tubeless setups more predictable.
> 
> Will one of those little $50~$75 compressors from walmart have enough flow for a tubeless setup, or do you need a fullsized one?


Try my trick (I don't use a compressor). After seating the bead with a tube and removing the tube from one unseated side, press the seated side of the rim against a truck tire while pumping with the other hand. The bulge in the truck tire will evenly push the unseated bead against the rim. It'll seat with only one hand working the floor pump, no problem.
If you don't have a truck, find one parked somewhere. :thumbsup:


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> Does it have a tank? If it is just one of those 12 volt ones that you carry in a car, it won't be much better than a good hand pump.


Some of the cheap, small ones do have a 1gal tank, but most don't. From some quick surfing the online specs don't give much info beyond that.

But heading to the gas station is basically what I want to avoid. Like I said, I'm always able to get the tires to air up eventually - even if that means resorting to throwing in a tube to set the bead on one side (and today I didn't even have to go that far).

But rather than working my way through all the tricks with a pesky tire, I'm just wondering if a smallish compressor would work - sure-fire, first-time?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

newfangled said:


> Some of the cheap, small ones do have a 1gal tank, but most don't. From some quick surfing the online specs don't give much info beyond that.
> 
> But heading to the gas station is basically what I want to avoid. Like I said, I'm always able to get the tires to air up eventually - even if that means resorting to throwing in a tube to set the bead on one side (and today I didn't even have to go that far).
> 
> But rather than working my way through all the tricks with a pesky tire, I'm just wondering if a smallish compressor would work - sure-fire, first-time?


Great thread that should answer your question:
http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/do-you-have-compressor-airing-up-tires-470254.html


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

Newfangled, I have found that the cheaper $75 compressors with a gallon or two tank work sometimes. I have one in my basement and it works for about 75-80% of the tires. But when I get a stubborn one I have to take it out to the garage and use the 26 gallon compressor and that has worked every time. Check out harborfreight, they have a lot of compressors for cheap.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Removing the core of the stem also helps. I had one tire that wouldn't air up but after I took the core out it snapped right in. That's assuming you have removable cores.


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## mecam (Feb 1, 2006)

WerxRacing said:


> Well I went to Party City. We do not even have latex to at ours. Go figure. lol I hope it works out for you mecam. Keep us posted if you can. if it works that is a 7.oo saving . Mold builder here at hobby lobby or micheals is 16.99


So far so good. :thumbsup: Can't really tell if I lost any PSI as my floor pump was reading about the same PSI from 5 days ago 38 rear 32 front. I road it yesterday for 15miles and no noticeable PSI loss afterwards. Only time will tell how long it will take to dry up. I poured a sample in a cup in open air and after 5 days the top layer seems to clot, I'm assuming that's the liquid latex, but after shaking the cup mildly, it's back to milky liquid form and no noticeable boogers.

I went with the following recipe.

1 part Party City Liquid Latex
1 part Slime Auto
1.5 parts RV AF (will try 2 parts next time)
Windex as mounting lube

-


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

No, one of the brews in this choice is better.


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## FreeGravey (Nov 10, 2010)

this thread is so full of bs im sill not sure if its an inside joke or not. yea stans is only good for "small" thorns Stans No Tubes - YouTube


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Depends on if you are riding with it or selling it.

Reality is often very different than marketing claims.


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## FreeGravey (Nov 10, 2010)

slocaus said:


> Depends on if you are riding with it or selling it.
> 
> Reality is often very different than marketing claims.


i ride in the highdesert (real mtbing) not national park granny trails and stans has never let me down


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Congrats troll, you just earned a place in the twit filter, uh, ignore list.


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## FreeGravey (Nov 10, 2010)

slocaus said:


> Congrats troll, you just earned a place in the twit filter, uh, ignore list.


rofl are you 6 or somthing? do you really have to tell me that you ignored me?  this thread is almost as ridiculous as the chinese carbon frame thread.


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## multistrada (Feb 6, 2011)

All,
Could someone please summarize the mixing sequence for me. Which ingrediants 2 are mixed first and which is added last? 
This is probobly clearly covered earlier in the thread but i couldnt find it.
thx


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

multistrada said:


> All,
> Could someone please summarize the mixing sequence for me. Which ingrediants 2 are mixed first and which is added last?
> This is probobly clearly covered earlier in the thread but i couldnt find it.
> thx


Thickest to thinnest, see this post: http://forums.mtbr.com/8449181-post1100.html


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

bangcole555 said:


> Anyone figure out how not to get boogers in their tires? After running the WSS (using ATV slime) for a couple of months, I found a cubic inch booger made of latex+black rubber chunks. I used Prestone EG, could that contributed to it?


I believe they are a result of the sealing process. Something has penetrated the tire, it has coagulated to stop the leak, and is the seed for the booger growth, like sand in the oyster irritating and it grows a pearl in defense.

Boogers are WSS pearls, appreciate them. 

Then again, maybe they are just my placebo.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I have only had one or two boogers since going tubeless 4 years ago and I relate it to using co2 to inflate, but that's just me. I think your theory is plausible... wonder if they form early on or when the sealant is starting to dry out?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> I have only had one or two boogers since going tubeless 4 years ago and I relate it to using co2 to inflate, but that's just me.


That is a fact I know from experience. I found some HUGE boogers within two or three weeks of going tubeless and it was because of reairing after burps.

But I think the theory about sealed holes starting them seems also valid.

Sent from my Thunderbolt via Tapatalk


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Hmmm. One of the biggest boogers I ever found had grown on a mesquite spike that was almost in far enough to hit the rim strip.


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

big0mike said:


> That is a fact I know from experience. I found some HUGE boogers within two or three weeks of going tubeless and it was because of reairing after burps.
> 
> But I think the theory about sealed holes starting them seems also valid.
> 
> Sent from my Thunderbolt via Tapatalk


Some get many pebble boogers, some get one big booger. Just thinking there's more to the picture as well. 
And your avatar pic thing really creeps me out. If you feel inclined to change it ever, you have my vote.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Sorry I'm sure this was covered but I did not bump into it.

To me, it seems using the radiator antifreeze(propylene glycol) is the best product to prevent dry out. I see some people use windshield washer fluid. Seems that would dry out fast!

Thoughts?


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## captainfishhook (Nov 23, 2011)

This is just awesome!!!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

thuren said:


> Sorry I'm sure this was covered but I did not bump into it.
> 
> To me, it seems using the radiator antifreeze(propylene glycol) is the best product to prevent dry out. I see some people use windshield washer fluid. Seems that would dry out fast!
> 
> Thoughts?


Yep, exactly so. Windshield Washer Fluid was an ingredient back when 'cuz the ammonia in it would help keep the latex liquid. Except most WWF these days is just detergent, so Naaah.

The toss up is between ethylene glycol (cheap, old style toxic antifreeze) or propylene glycol (new style low-tox antifreeze).


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> The toss up is between ethylene glycol (cheap, old style toxic antifreeze) or propylene glycol (new style low-tox antifreeze).


Which is the RV Antifreeze?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

big0mike said:


> Which is the RV Antifreeze?


EG ethylene glycol


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slocaus said:


> EG ethylene glycol


Hmmm... Then why is it preferred I wonder?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> Which is the RV Antifreeze?





slocaus said:


> EG ethylene glycol


Actually, I think you can get it either way. The stuff for waterlines in non-tox/PG. Big point is "pre diluted", already 50% water. Gotta adjust the recipe to reflect this.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> Actually, I think you can get it either way. The stuff for waterlines in non-tox/PG. Big point is "pre diluted", already 50% water. Gotta adjust the recipe to reflect this.


It's been a while since I looked so don't know what the current recipe is but I thought it was straight RV because it's 50/50?

Sent from my Thunderbolt via Tapatalk


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

big0mike said:


> Hmmm... Then why is it preferred I wonder?





big0mike said:


> It's been a while since I looked so don't know what the current recipe is but I thought it was straight RV because it's 50/50?
> 
> Sent from my Thunderbolt via Tapatalk


I like the PG for being non-toxic. We have a dog who hangs in the garage when doing bike work, and tends to vacuum every spec on the floor in case it is edible. 

I just use mold builder, slime, and the PG 50/50 mix, no extra water added. Works great, costs less, lasts longer. :thumbsup:

_*EDIT*_* - fixed the brain fart, PG is the non-toxic used in RV water tanks and lines and safer around pets*


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

slocaus said:


> I like the EG for being non-toxic.


Ah, but PG is non-tox. EG (Ethylene Glycol) is the old sweet tasting poisonous kind. Typically, it will say if it's non-tox in big print - have to read the fine print to see if it's propylene or ethylene or some blend.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

wadester said:


> Ah, but PG is non-tox. EG (Ethylene Glycol) is the old sweet tasting poisonous kind. Typically, it will say if it's non-tox in big print - have to read the fine print to see if it's propylene or ethylene or some blend.


Oh crap! I was drugged, tryptophan and beer, that and grey hair contributed to getting them twisted.

*PG, polypropylene glycol is the RV antifreeze type* I use because it is safer. It's even in Twinkies!


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## multistrada (Feb 6, 2011)

*Topping off a Stans filled tire with our Homebrew - Anyone tried it?*

Has anyone attempted to top off a Stans filled tire with our brew?

I"ve got a couple tires with some miles left on them that need topping off so i"m considering topping them off with some homebrew but dont want to prematurely ruin the tires in the process.

Has anyone had any success with this approach?

Thanks


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

multistrada said:


> Has anyone attempted to top off a Stans filled tire with our brew?
> 
> I"ve got a couple tires with some miles left on them that need topping off so i"m considering topping them off with some homebrew but dont want to prematurely ruin the tires in the process.
> 
> ...


Yes, when I started with WSS, I just added it to the six wheels I had going with Stans, 1 to 3 ounces, depending on the sealant level in each wheel. Except for being a different color, nothing else happened.


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## mecam (Feb 1, 2006)

The Party City Liquid Latex is working great. Maintained the PSI for weeks. Here's a small video with WSS brew w/ Party City liq latex on a Non-UST Kenda Nevegal Sticky-E 2.35". The front tire was inflated to 32psi and no noticeable psi loss after a 5 hour ride. The WSS brew is awesome. :thumbsup: Thx!

1 part Party City Liquid Latex
1 part Slime Auto
2 parts RV AF
Windex as mounting lube (this worked awesome btw)
-






-


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## 1SPD (Apr 25, 2010)

Been running slime Pro in my tires with much better luck than the stans. However, now that I have found this nifty thread it looks like I will be doing a little mixing when it is time for a top off! Great info guys. Time to start collecting all the parts for the brew!


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## Vermont29er (May 27, 2006)

*Freezing temps?*

What kind of luck are folks having with below-freezing temps? Is the mix still able to plug new holes?


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

Vermont29er said:


> What kind of luck are folks having with below-freezing temps? Is the mix still able to plug new holes?


No problems...


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

Does anyone make their homebrew sealant without Slime? I've been searching the archives and haven't seen any recipes that don't use it. 

I've been using the latex, slime, water, and antifreeze with good success however I am wondering what the slime actually contributes to the formula except the rubber bits for plugging holes.

The Stans MSDS lists latex, propylene glycol and water as the ingredients...

The SLIME MSDS doesn't list anything that I could find. So I assume it may have latex and some form of propylene or ethylene glycol?

Anybody have any thoughts / ideas on this?

thanks!


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## curtboroff (Sep 21, 2010)

ljracer said:


> Does anyone make their homebrew sealant without Slime? I've been searching the archives and haven't seen any recipes that don't use it.
> 
> I've been using the latex, slime, water, and antifreeze with good success however I am wondering what the slime actually contributes to the formula except the rubber bits for plugging holes.
> 
> ...


I have an unending supply of tire grindings, and I want to figure this out as well. I'm willing to donate some for the cause if anyone is interested. It's super fine, almost powder, up to maby 1/32" size. PM me if your interested.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

ljracer said:


> Does anyone make their homebrew sealant without Slime?
> 
> I am wondering what the slime actually contributes to the formula except the rubber bits for plugging holes.
> 
> ...


The water/glycol is just the carrier for the actual sealing agents, which are rubber chunks and synthetic fibers. Our homebrews are just adding latex as another level of "things that plug holes". We've experimented with additional "chunkulation", such as glitter - which didn't really work - and dryer lint, but haven't come up with good additional ingredients.

I note that even Slime now offers sealant with latex - I think it's the Pro version. Still cheaper to mix your own.

SO!
Carrier fluid - water/glycol. Keeps the chunks available to any hole, is low evaporating so it lasts (the glycol) and won't freeze.

Chunkulation - 
Rubber chunks: seal larger holes by jamming them full - except this leaves small holes.
Fibers: seal small holes by jamming them full - except this leaves really small holes.
Latex: seals really small holes, even porosity

The holy grail would be a chunk that sealed really large holes, but I'm starting to think that a sewing kit may be the best bet for that.

PS: use baseball stitch for smooth edges


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

wadester said:


> The water/glycol is just the carrier for the actual sealing agents, which are rubber chunks and synthetic fibers. Our homebrews are just adding latex as another level of "things that plug holes". We've experimented with additional "chunkulation", such as glitter - which didn't really work - and dryer lint, but haven't come up with good additional ingredients.
> 
> I note that even Slime now offers sealant with latex - I think it's the Pro version. Still cheaper to mix your own.
> 
> ...


Wow. I got a reply from the Wadester himself :thumbsup:.

Thanks for the detailed info! So in addition to the rubber chunks, it's the fibers that slime contributes. And of course the green dye.

For large holes/sidewall tears I've been using reinforced tire patches with excellent success. Unfortunately it's not a trail side repair.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

Ok so the question is which of these fibers is the right one that is used for the formulation of tire sealant.

Uses for Precision Cut Fibers and Synthetic Pulps from MiniFIBERS, Inc.


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## mdemm (Aug 4, 2010)

+1 on the 1part latex, 2 parts Slime, RV Antifreeze mixture... Used windex / tires popped right in place... "Bye-Bye"--- Stans !!! Thanks all, for you assistance !!!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

When we went to Cottonwood the trails around Dead Horse Ranch State Park are just littered with goat heads. Me and a buddy, on the Mrs bike, went for a quick ride from the cabins to the RV park (less than a mile) and when we returned I pulled out over a dozen each in both tires on both bikes. One of her tubes was flat as a result. If I'd had my bottle I would've filled it with Home Brew but I didn't so I put in a new tube. When I got home I filled the failed "Slime" tube (Slime had dried up; I could feel the lump) with home brew and pumped it up. No hissing.

So, I'll save some money buying Slime tubes and make my own "Home Brew" tubes for her. :thumbsup: No need to set her up tubeless for as often as she rides.


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## newfangled (Sep 13, 2010)

Does anyone have longterm experience with homebrew in tubes? I'd been thinking about doing that with my beater bike, since it's not worth the trouble of converting it to tubeless. I guess that after enough sealant has dried out in there you'd eventually have to toss the tube, but that could probably take a few years?


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

newfangled said:


> Does anyone have longterm experience with homebrew in tubes? I'd been thinking about doing that with my beater bike, since it's not worth the trouble of converting it to tubeless. I guess that after enough sealant has dried out in there you'd eventually have to toss the tube, but that could probably take a few years?


I did that with some tubes where I added the WSS mix to them. They worked great for a while. I've used them off and on over a couple of years. I just keep them as my backup for desert riding in case my tubeless fails in a remote area full of cactus.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

I have run slime+anti freeze in one tube and the other tube just air for one year. The tires were armadillos and neither had flats in 5200 miles on my commuter bike riding in a downtown area (glass).

I first tried slime by itself but in really cold temps (I would say 0-30F) the slime would not flow in the tube and cause an unbalanced wheel.


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## thinman (Jun 13, 2005)

I have been running the mix in the link for about 9 months now with great success in both my bikes. Seals punctures, stays wet and doesn't ball up as much as Stan's. I have to think the NoLeak for coolant systems is doing the work. It is made to seal holes in rubber and metal.....The latex additive for thinset I used is premixed but a concentrated form is available that would allow more options such as antifreeze.

http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/yet-another-tire-sealant-formula-731154.html


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

thinman said:


> I have been experimenting using Latex additive for thinset mortar mixed with cooling system stopleak. I figure the latex is a carrying agent and the stop leak is made to seal rubber and metal without corroding. I have been running it in my 29er wheels for about a week at this point. No problems in 1.5 hr rides or a 30 minute Dirt Crit over sharp rocks etc.
> 
> I mix 2 parts latex to 1 part stop leak. Or:
> 4 oz. latex
> ...


Gold Eagle No Leak Cooling System Treatment - MSDS:
www.mightyautoparts.com/pdf/msds/vs7/cl104.pdf 
Of note: Avoid Copper and strongly alkaline materials and products. Pure ammonia is "mildly" alkaline at 11 pH, but mold builder is about 1% max ammonia. Some intersting info: http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/ammonia-liquid-latex-why-235345.html

Their FAQ NO LEAK Cooling System Treatment FAQ says some interesting things:
Q: How does NO-LEAK Cooling System Treatment work?
A: The product contains tiny fibers and other sealants, which will safely seal holes in the radiator, heater core and other parts of the cooling system, but will not plug or restrict coolant flow. 
Q: Is NO-LEAK safe to use?
A: Yes, unlike some other sealers, NO-LEAK is perfectly safe to use, compatible with all types of antifreeze (including extended life coolants) and all cooling system parts (metal, plastic and rubber).NO-LEAK Cooling System Stop Leak will not damage your cooling system or engine.

It didn't coagulate the latex, so that's good. Sounds like a possible winner, but I would add it to WSS rather than substitute for Slime - at least at first. I see MSRP is $11.19/14 oz vs $15.99/32 oz for tubeless slime.


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

I started another thread on this which actually lead me here and after reading almost 30 pages Im wondering if anyone has tried the WSS mix but to use latex Calk in place of the mold builder?

Im thinking I may give this a shot myself. If successful this would produce most likely the cheapest and easiest to find/make home brew.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Yes, someone has done it. The thread search should work well for "caulk". It was some ways back.


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

slocaus said:


> Yes, someone has done it. The thread search should work well for "caulk". It was some ways back.


I researched this for hours tonight before making my own, but so many page I could have easily missed it... "Caulk" seemed to only turn up the Windex and Caulk people...

In any event my Brew was this:

Walmarts "White Latex Caulk" 10oz $1.50
Tire Slime 10oz - $8
RV antifreeze 15oz - $3

Consistency looked pretty good once all mixed, Had a little trouble getting the initial bead to seal on the test tire but once it did was gtg.


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## Necris (Dec 19, 2011)

If you get flat, best solution is to fix the tire or buy a new one, instead of relying on sealant. The opposite Of Stan's is SuperJuice by Bontrager. That could solve your problems - but it won't seal as good as Stan's.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I spent an hour at a bike shop once watching them to try to get SuperJuice to seel a smal puncture. They had almost an entire bottle of it in the tire by the time I told them "Stans would seal that in 2 seconds" The owner of the shop cleaned out the tire and took a bottle of Stans and dumped about 2 ounces in the tire aired it up, spun it and "ththt" and sealed. He threw the rest of the can of SuperJuice in the garbage and said he would only be selling Stans going forward.


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## skitchy (Dec 5, 2011)

William_Cannon said:


> Anyone figure out how not to get boogers in their tires? After running the WSS (using ATV slime) for a couple of months, I found a cubic inch booger made of latex+black rubber chunks. I used Prestone EG, could that contributed to it?


Genius! Why not try adding boogers to the mix?


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

Heres an update. The tire lost some pressure over night but thats to be expected even with stans.

The one thing Im noticing with this caulk brew is that it doesnt get hard and stringy like stans does if left out to dry. It simply gets sticky, but doesn't coagulate anything like stans...

For those of you using the "mold builder recipes" does yours get hardened if sat out to dry up like stans does?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Ace5high said:


> Heres an update. The tire lost some pressure over night but thats to be expected even with stans.
> 
> The one thing Im noticing with this caulk brew is that it doesnt get hard and stringy like stans does if left out to dry. It simply gets sticky, but doesn't coagulate anything like stans...
> 
> For those of you using the "mold builder recipes" does yours get hardened if sat out to dry up like stans does?


I haven't done a specific test - what are you saying, exactly? Drops on counter? Specific size "dish" filled how deep? What?


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

Wow thanks for the response. I made a pretty big mess lastnight airing one tire up so I got some splatter of all size drops all over the floor. I left them there lastnight to sxee what happneed and today all of the splatter is still damp and sticky. It did not leave that hard latex reside that stans does or you would expect from latex. I also left the bit that came out around the bead of the tire I did air up to see if that would coagulate and it did not. Its also just a sticky wet substance exactly like wet elmers glue that doesnt dry...


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I think latex caulk is a misnomer. I think latex caulk uses "acrylic latex" which is not the natural rubber product found in mold builder. I could be wrong on this as it has been around a decade since I last used latex caulk.


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

Whatever it is I really didn't get the impression the Caulk was going to seal as well as liquid latex. So I went out for some mold builder and mixed up a new brew today... Looks much more promising


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Looking up latex/acrylic caulk cure information - the undiluted stuff gets a skin in 1/2-2 hours, but isn't fully cured for 3 days! Dilution more than likely slow all that down.

OTOH! One of the "problems" with tire sealant is keeping it from drying/curing in the tire. This is what makes "boogers" for instance.

Maybe a blend of mold builder/caulk would have some benefit? I'm going to use some mold builder for something other than tire sealant soon (what a concept, eh?) so I'll probably have a partial container left. I may go upscale from Wally Caulk, but still. I note that there are "fast drying" latex caulks out there too.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Would thinned acrylic latex caulk be similar to thick acrylic latex paint?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Wade, I admire your work. I remember the reason I never used acrylic latex caulk again was that if it touched water, it got a skin on it and then it took way longer to harden below. Of course it could have been reformulated over the years, but I just want you to know that this stuff is probably not going to work before you mix very much up.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> Wade, I admire your work. I remember the reason I never used acrylic latex caulk again was that if it touched water, it got a skin on it and then it took way longer to harden below. Of course it could have been reformulated over the years, but I just want you to know that this stuff is probably not going to work before you mix very much up.


Ah, good data point. Of course, that's the property I'm trying to add a little of - make a skin at the hole surface, but not harden inside the tire. This also makes me think 50/50 would probably be too much. Maybe 75/25, or 90/10.



bsieb said:


> ^Would thinned acrylic latex caulk be similar to thick acrylic latex paint?


This is a good thought. Paint would mix in better, but the question would be "what are the other ingredients?". Basically, what solids are mixed in. Perhaps pigment grade filler would be a good sealant addition? Hmm.

"Latex paint is a misnomer because there is actually NO latex in latex paint. Latex is a natural product that originally came from the Brazilian rubber tree (Hevea Brasiliensis) and is now mostly produced in SE Asia. The sap of the Hevea is the natural product from which real rubber is made and this is what is used to make latex gloves; it is also the product to which people are developing allergies. This natural latex product is not the same ingredient that goes into paint. What goes into paint are synthetic polymers that look just like natural latex but have a completely different chemical makeup and different properties than latex rubber. "

The key phrase I find is "acrylic polymer emulsion"


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

And latex caulk has the same basic chemicals as latex paint, I think. I hope I am wrong, but I think the "skin" property will show up in the tire or while you are mixing not at the leak.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

wadester said:


> Ah, good data point. Of course, that's the property I'm trying to add a little of - make a skin at the hole surface, but not harden inside the tire. This also makes me think 50/50 would probably be too much. Maybe 75/25, or 90/10.
> 
> This is a good thought. Paint would mix in better, but the question would be "what are the other ingredients?". Basically, what solids are mixed in. Perhaps pigment grade filler would be a good sealant addition? Hmm.
> 
> ...


The mold builder would add plenty of real latex to the mix, you could shake a little up in a jar and see how quickly it drys. I need to order more mold builder online, or I would. Maybe the paint pigment would seal the tire pores more effectively?


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

wadester said:


> Looking up latex/acrylic caulk cure information - the undiluted stuff gets a skin in 1/2-2 hours, but isn't fully cured for 3 days! Dilution more than likely slow all that down.
> 
> OTOH! One of the "problems" with tire sealant is keeping it from drying/curing in the tire. This is what makes "boogers" for instance.
> 
> Maybe a blend of mold builder/caulk would have some benefit? I'm going to use some mold builder for something other than tire sealant soon (what a concept, eh?) so I'll probably have a partial container left. I may go upscale from Wally Caulk, but still. I note that there are "fast drying" latex caulks out there too.


couple of my observations I will add to this for you guys. First the type of caulk. I actually selected 3 different types of caulk. 1 was the common acrylic latex plus silicone caulk. Next was a 50/50 silicone/latex and the last was just labeled "white Latex".

I did a few experiments with them to test setting speed before I mixed anything. I found that as I went from Latex toward the silicone I went from quick setting to slow setting. Also, one other thing that made me select the cheap "White latex" was the weight. The Latex only caulk was significantly heavier than the other caulks, Had a weight similar to that of the mold builder...

As for the spatters now a few days later they did actually dry up a bit and get "caulk" like, but as said before this took several days. I still have a tire aired with this original caulk brew and actually had a much easier time sealing the bead on this tire than I did with my MB brew.

So my main observations are that the caulk brew did not booger up anywhere near as quick as a MB brew does. But it also had good sealing properties. I punched a few good sized nails through this tire and they all sealed quick. My largest concern with it was is it going to create a seal equal to that of the quicker setting MB latex.


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## estrellainfo (Oct 15, 2011)

Hello Peoples, 

I'm interested in doing that ...
I have almost everything. only lack the sealant!

What is the best component to the liquid sealant?
What commend?
What does not work?
my conversion . post pics soon 
Bye


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Just read this thread, all the answers to all your questions are here.


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## estrellainfo (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks, slocaus


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## EZuphill (Nov 21, 2011)

thanks for all the great info!


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## socalMX (Oct 31, 2009)

I have been using Slime-Pro with great success, over a year and still wet! I have half a bottle left and a new bottle of Stans that was given to me. Is it o.k to mix the two? When all this runs out I will be mixing my own from now on!


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## rideandshoot (Dec 18, 2006)

So I'll admit I only read the last page but it was enough to see that there has been a lot of research on this!!!

I really have no beef with stans except that here in the summer it drys up way to fast. Is anti freeze the antidote for fast evaporation environments (like my garage in Phoenix)?


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

rideandshoot said:


> So I'll admit I only read the last page but it was enough to see that there has been a lot of research on this!!!
> 
> I really have no beef with stans except that here in the summer it drys up way to fast. Is anti freeze the antidote for fast evaporation environments (like my garage in Phoenix)?


I don think its just for those who have beef with stans haha, Its basically like making the same thing for much cheaper that lasts longer. I like stans but simply due to cost Im making my own.

I dont personally know about adding the coolant to stans... But it does work well with the home brew.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

rideandshoot said:


> I really have no beef with stans except that here in the summer it drys up way to fast. Is anti freeze the antidote for fast evaporation environments (like my garage in Phoenix)?


That is the "theory" anyways... I'm with you in Phoenix so that's a concern as well although you can make it so cheap that refilling isn't such a monetary burden. It's just a slight pain to refill. Which is why I put like 6 oz in each tire  With 1400 gram tires another 12 oz ain't gonna hurt.

The Slime supposedly has an anti-freeze component in it as the transport and Slime lasts MUCH longer than Stan's.


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## multistrada (Feb 6, 2011)

OK - Just for the fun of it i tried to calculate the Per Ounce cost of Stans vs Homebrew. 
This info is based on my recent purchases for my homebrew vs. the cost of various sizes of Stans. I used the internet to find a couple of prices for each of the different sizes of Stans that are readily available. 
Assuming that both last the same amount of time and both also seal equally well (of course our evidece shows that home brew actually lasts longer and works as well and likely better than stans) i calculated the Cost Per Ounce of various sizes of Stans vs our beloved Homebrew.

I think you will find the results quick compelling.

ALso note the my purchases will make at least 152 oz of Homwbrew (with some ingredients leftover) and in the far right calculation i show what the equivelent cost for 152oz of Stans might cost for the various sizes that you may purchase...Ohhhhh Myyyyyyyy...That is FUNNY, ehhh?

I should note in fairness that i did use a coupon at Michaels for the Mold Builder but i purchased the other goodies at the local auto parts store

So tear it apart boys and girls of the Tubless Brew Thread...I look forward to some healthy banter regarding these rough calculations.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

If u use 1 part mold builder and 1 part slime and 2 parts RV antifreeze then you need 16 oz MB 16oz Slime and 32 oz RV for 64 ounces and a cost of $28.37 or $.44 per ounce. The equivelant amount of Stans (64 oz) is $50 or $.78 per ounce. Stans still seals faster, but doesn't last nearly as long.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

If you account for the fact that you only use 1/4 th of the RV antifreeze it makes the cost of 64 ounces $25.01 and $.39 per ounce. Almost exactly half the cost.


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## pjanda1 (Aug 23, 2011)

Anybody tried Liquid Latex Body Paint? I'm in the middle of nowhere and I'd have to pay shipping on Mold Builder. My LBS doesn't stock Stans or Slime Pro. I just called the local "lingerie" shop and they've got latex body paint in stock, but its $25. Liquid Latex's site claims nothing but natural latex with some water, ammonia and dye. I'm curious to try something new, and it seems like more folks might have access to this.

Paul


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

*Win-Win*



pjanda1 said:


> Anybody tried Liquid Latex Body Paint? I'm in the middle of nowhere and I'd have to pay shipping on Mold Builder. My LBS doesn't stock Stans or Slime Pro. I just called the local "lingerie" shop and they've got latex body paint in stock, but its $25. Liquid Latex's site claims nothing but natural latex with some water, ammonia and dye. I'm curious to try something new, and it seems like more folks might have access to this.
> 
> Paul


It'll work I'd bet, just don't post pics.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Mold builder is "pure latex with 6% ammonia" according to the label.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I am thinking that there is enough water in the paint that it would probably be cheaper to pay the shipping for the concentrated stuff. Interesting locating a lingerie shop in the middle of nowhere and that they have body paint also. Sounds like a fun place to live.


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## pjanda1 (Aug 23, 2011)

I should add that I didn't discover the latex body paint by wondering the isles, but rather by spending some time googling latex. 

This would be an alright place to live were it not for the cactus and goat heads. I road all summer in the desert (Santa Fe) with light tires, regular tubes and not a single flat. The last ride here (Scottsbluff, NE) netted three holes in one tube and two in the other. I ran the bike back to the car after it got too dark to fix flats. The LBS strongly discourages tubeless. They say everybody that brings a tubeless rig to town ends up with their super heavy, puncture resistant tubes. My trail running Five Fingers can't keep the cactus out of the bottom of my feet. We talked about how sealant can fill a couple of holes, but can it plug a half dozen per day? We'll see.

Paul


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## thinman (Jun 13, 2005)

pjanda1 said:


> Anybody tried Liquid Latex Body Paint? I'm in the middle of nowhere and I'd have to pay shipping on Mold Builder. My LBS doesn't stock Stans or Slime Pro. I just called the local "lingerie" shop and they've got latex body paint in stock, but its $25. Liquid Latex's site claims nothing but natural latex with some water, ammonia and dye. I'm curious to try something new, and it seems like more folks might have access to this.
> 
> Paul


I have had great luck using Custom's latex additive for thinset. Available at Home Depot etc. About $25 for 2.5 gallons or a qt of concentrate for $20.


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## pjanda1 (Aug 23, 2011)

I do have a Home Depot. I'll check that out ASAP. Is it real Latex, unlike caulk or house paint?

Paul


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## mgersib (Apr 9, 2004)

pjanda1 said:


> I should add that I didn't discover the latex body paint by wondering the isles, but rather by spending some time googling latex.
> 
> This would be an alright place to live were it not for the cactus and goat heads. I road all summer in the desert (Santa Fe) with light tires, regular tubes and not a single flat. The last ride here (Scottsbluff, NE) netted three holes in one tube and two in the other. I ran the bike back to the car after it got too dark to fix flats. The LBS strongly discourages tubeless. They say everybody that brings a tubeless rig to town ends up with their super heavy, puncture resistant tubes. My trail running Five Fingers can't keep the cactus out of the bottom of my feet. We talked about how sealant can fill a couple of holes, but can it plug a half dozen per day? We'll see.
> 
> Paul


I've ridden in the Scottsbluff area with my tubeless system, and the funny thing is, the only riders that had flats were the riders running tubes. The tubeless riders had no problems whatsoever.

... Have your LBS give Cycle Works in Lincoln a call and give 'em the 411 on durable, reliable tubeless. They'll get 'em set up. I've had only one flat in the last 12,000 miles of trail time.

Goat head thorns were the original reason I switched to tubeless and it's proven to be the solution I was after...


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## MotoX33 (Nov 8, 2011)

Removed. Should have posted it somewhere else. Sorry... :thumbsup:


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

elrusty: Try putting 90% of the bead on and leave a little open lip of tire. Pour in the sealant and then rotate the wheel so the sealant is in a portion of the tire that is already "beaded". Then seat the last piece of tire, slowly rotate the wheel (to spread sealant) and then try the compressor.

It may take a couple of days for the sealant to fill all the pinholes in the tire wall.


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## elrusty (Jan 17, 2012)

Alright, 

I've been working on this project for a day now, and still cannot get the bead to seal properly on the rim. I've tried soap, windex, a compressor, cursing, and I still cannot get the tire to seal correctly! My tire sits as a "V", instead of a "U", and I suspect that's what's causing my issues. I just can't seem to figure out how to get it to sit properly so I can inflate it. The rim is lined on the inside with 1" gorilla tape, and it looks like that's made a good seal. I'm using a schrader valve from an old tube, and laid a couple of strips of the same tape over it, puncturing an "x" where the valve hole is. 

I've read that some people have used an inflated tube to set the bead properly, but I cannot figure out how I would take it out. Wouldn't I have to dismount one side of the tire to remove the tube? And then, how do I get that side to sit right without the tube in there? Is there something I'm just not understanding?

I have the regular tires/rims that came with my bike. The rims themselves have a "lip" on the inner walls, and the tires have a thick bead. I'm assuming this should work. Any ideas?

BTW, I made a batch of WSS 1.0, and it came out great. I just need the tire to hold air, so I can actually use the sauce.


----------



## Ptor (Jan 29, 2004)

elrusty said:


> I'm using a schrader valve from an old tube, and laid a couple of strips of the same tape over it, puncturing an "x" where the valve hole is.


Perhaps you should use a presta valve and using the nut on the outside to snug it up agains the rim -- hole size in the rim doesn't matter and the bigger hole can be better. Use a presta valve for which you can remove the core of the valve (it unscrews) and then use an air compressor with a big reservoir to blast in the air -- the bead should seat. Pulling out the valve core allows you to really send in a big blast of air, popping the tire on to the rim. You can use a CO2 cartridge just to see if that does the trick, but I have all sorts of trouble with freezing the sauce.

I can seat tires this way and still keep them seated and inflated while screwing in the presta valve core.


----------



## thinman (Jun 13, 2005)

pjanda1 said:


> I do have a Home Depot. I'll check that out ASAP. Is it real Latex, unlike caulk or house paint?
> 
> Paul


It is a latex emulsion. I run it with radiator stop leak(gold colored gel type by Stabil) in a 2 to 1 ratio (Latex to Noleak). Works well for me. I am thinking about adding a dash of rv/pool antifreeze as it is propolyene glycol and cheap.


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## fastfish666 (Aug 24, 2007)

not sure if its a good idea or not, but Ive been "glueing" my tyres on with watered down PVA white wood glue. Im running Kenda Nevagals on WTB rims that have an inner lip that the tyre bead needs to get over -- the extra lubrication of the wet PVA glue helps get the tyre to seat and then to prevent leaks when it dries


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

elrusty said:


> Alright,
> 
> I've been working on this project for a day now, and still cannot get the bead to seal properly on the rim. I've tried soap, windex, a compressor, cursing, and I still cannot get the tire to seal correctly! My tire sits as a "V", instead of a "U", and I suspect that's what's causing my issues. I just can't seem to figure out how to get it to sit properly so I can inflate it. The rim is lined on the inside with 1" gorilla tape, and it looks like that's made a good seal. I'm using a schrader valve from an old tube, and laid a couple of strips of the same tape over it, puncturing an "x" where the valve hole is.
> 
> ...


Soap on the beads to allow them to slide and seal well. I've seen a brush, a spray bottle used, I use a soap mix in an old water bottle.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

fastfish666 said:


> not sure if its a good idea or not, but Ive been "glueing" my tyres on with watered down PVA white wood glue. Im running Kenda Nevagals on WTB rims that have an inner lip that the tyre bead needs to get over -- the extra lubrication of the wet PVA glue helps get the tyre to seat and then to prevent leaks when it dries


I have a friend who uses contact cement on tire and rim. These are carbon, and he runs low pressure for endurance racing on lighter tires. Works fine for him. Time and patience is needed to get the tire on the rim after gluing. He uses the NoTubes injector to add sealant through the valve stem after installing tire and doing a test inflation without sealant first from the compressor.


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## 2fst4u (Dec 2, 2006)

Did you take out your schrader valve core when forcing the air in with the compressor? If so, sorry to add this suggestion but if not, remove the valve core with the slime bottle cap (it's black and is a core removal tool) the air compressor will fill the tire and bead it very quickly. Then take your air chuck off the valve, put your finger over it to hold the air in, then in a quick motion, remove your finger and put the valve core in quickly screwing it in as you go. Some air will leave but you'll be seated into place.

Having it wet with with soap hand water helps but sounds like your not even getting close. It should inflate and seat at least a little bit without any soap and water.


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## elrusty (Jan 17, 2012)

2fst4u said:


> Did you take out your schrader valve core when forcing the air in with the compressor? If so, sorry to add this suggestion but if not, remove the valve core with the slime bottle cap (it's black and is a core removal tool) the air compressor will fill the tire and bead it very quickly. Then take your air chuck off the valve, put your finger over it to hold the air in, then in a quick motion, remove your finger and put the valve core in quickly screwing it in as you go. Some air will leave but you'll be seated into place.
> 
> Having it wet with with soap hand water helps but sounds like your not even getting close. It should inflate and seat at least a little bit without any soap and water.


I've taken out the valve core, and I've used soap/water, and windex too. I used a hand pump, and a compressor, but I don't get the "pop" when the bead seals. I put a few ounces of the sealant, spun the tire around, and left it overnight. Later today I'm gonna try to inflate it again. Hopefully that works. If not, I'm gonna try the split tube method before giving up.

Are there special rims and tires I should be using? From what I've read, it should work with the stock combo my bike came with.

Edit: I'll try to upload some pictures of my wheel/tire combo, maybe someone can tell me if it will work or not.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

fastfish666 said:


> not sure if its a good idea or not, but Ive been "glueing" my tyres on with watered down PVA white wood glue. Im running Kenda Nevagals on WTB rims that have an inner lip that the tyre bead needs to get over -- the extra lubrication of the wet PVA glue helps get the tyre to seat and then to prevent leaks when it dries


I just painted mold builder onto the bead of my tires, pulled the schraeder core and blasted full of air. The mold builder takes a second to dry so I just left the chuck connected until the mold builder began to dry, then I added sealant, reinstalled the core and reinflated.

I didnt let the mold builder dry before airing down on the first wheel that I did this on and the bead broke on both sides but then I added sealant, added the core, and reinflated and everything seated back up. I guess that the mold builder was still too runny for the bead to lock into place but it's held up fine for the last 3 months or so.

FWIW, I didnt get the 'pop' either but the tires were very difficult to mount by hand. Split-tube tubeless on older Mavic V-brake rims with Maxxis tires.


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## elrusty (Jan 17, 2012)

UPDATE:

I bought a 24" tube and split it down the middle. I put it on the rim, washed off the powder, and mounted the tire. It seemed to sit a bit better on the rim this time, but when I blasted it full of air, it didn't even hold it for an instant. At this point I don't know what I'm doing wrong, and perhaps I should just give up. 

I tried to post images of my setup, but the site won't let me because of my post count. If anyone can check out my profile and look at the image album, I'd greatly appreciate it. 

Thanks.

UPDATE 2:

OMG IT WORKED! I had pretty much given up, when I decided to try again, and sure enough, the tube filled right up. I'm confident I know what I was doing wrong. I found out that the tire inflator I have needs quite a bit of pressure before it seals with the valve opening. I got some pressure pliers and wrapped them around the valve stem, which gave me two hands to really push down on the inflator. It worked like a charm! :thumbsup:

I'm not sure if using the split tube actually helped, but I have the front tire I can experiment with still.

I also discovered that removing the actual core valve didn't work, because the inflator has its own valve that needs to be pushed up for the air to escape. 

Thanks everyone for your input!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

How old, used, and/or beat up is the tire? My experience is that the older the tire is the more difficult it is to seat. There's a window of wear where the tire is just as good as new but a really old, beat up tire could prove difficult.

I also found one spot on a tire that had some life left in it that had taken a significant impact from a rock or something. The wire bead was dented and that spot seemed to not want to seal. Put a new tire on and it sealed right up.

When I got my Outlaws I decided to go with new rubber on the new rims and mounted my rear tire first. Aired and sealed up instantly. Then I realized I put the damn thing on with the tread going the wrong direction. Pulled it off, turned it around, and put it back on. Took me nearly an hour to get the effin thing to seal this time. Same tire, same rim, just turned around. Go figure...

When I finally did get it aired up it happened right after I removed the core to the Schrader valve.

With all that in mind you certainly have to be able to HEAR where the air is leaking from if it's not holding air. I try to rock the tire back and forth to try to pull it out of the center channel where it won't hold any air. I've also tried to put the tire on the ground and lean on it so that the "leaky" spots are pressed down against the rim. All you need is to get enough contact between the rim, tube, & tire to get it inflated. Usually, once it's inflated you are home free.


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## elrusty (Jan 17, 2012)

big0mike said:


> How old, used, and/or beat up is the tire? My experience is that the older the tire is the more difficult it is to seat. There's a window of wear where the tire is just as good as new but a really old, beat up tire could prove difficult.


The tire is a pretty inexpensive Bell 26" road tire that's a little over a year old. But anyway, I updated my previous post with my success. Thanks for your advice.


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## PinkFloyd (Nov 24, 2011)

I'm getting ready to mix my first-ever batch of tubeless brew. I'll be running it in Stan's ZTR Arch rims with WTB Nano tires.

Right now I'm looking at using:

1 part Latex mold builder
2 parts Victor SealSafe heavy-duty tire sealant (which contains ethylene glycol)
2 parts water
maybe add some glitter if my wife has any left over in her craft stuff

What I'm not so sure about is whether or not I should be thinking about adding any sort of antifreeze to the mix since the SealSafe already has EG in it.

Any thoughts or suggestions?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Use black lettering to write for those of us with not so perfect vision.

Use RV AF instead of water.
If the tire seal stuff is like slime, use one part not two.
Forget about the glitter, read back in the thread to find out why.


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## PinkFloyd (Nov 24, 2011)

slocaus said:


> Use black lettering to write for those of us with not so perfect vision.


I hear ya. I certainly fall into that category, mostly due to age.:skep:

Made the brew with 1 mold builder, 1 SealSafe and 2 RV AF. Those tires seated very easily on the Arch rims. Looking forward to riding them.:thumbsup:


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

isleblue65 said:


> I just picked up some sealant for a hole in my wife's car tire sidewall called AmerSeal from NAPA Auto Parts. I hadn't heard of this stuff before.
> 
> The first thing about it that I noticed was how thick it was -- about like thick pancake mix. Secondly, when I took a little bit of it between my fingers, long stringly fibers form immediately. they look like fiberglass or cotton strands, but they are not visible in the liquid, only when a bit of it is dried out between your fingers.
> 
> ...


Well I found this (AmerSeal) stuff on the shelf at Rule King. Was reading this LONG post again to see if any one has tried it. You are the only post. So how has it worked out? Has anyone else tried it instead or Slime? I seen one other person say it will not be as good. But not see any one using it except for you.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

mecam said:


> The Party City Liquid Latex is working great. Maintained the PSI for weeks. Here's a small video with WSS brew w/ Party City liq latex on a Non-UST Kenda Nevegal Sticky-E 2.35". The front tire was inflated to 32psi and no noticeable psi loss after a 5 hour ride. The WSS brew is awesome. :thumbsup: Thx!
> 
> 1 part Party City Liquid Latex
> 1 part Slime Auto
> ...


Nice to see it is holding up. Jst be nice if our two Party City stores here would get it. But they act as if it is not something they will get in cause no sale demand for it....


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## EZuphill (Nov 21, 2011)

When u talk about parts for home brew... what are u using to measures ur parts? 
I am looking to mount a front and rear.

Thanks
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

EZuphill said:


> When u talk about parts for home brew... what are u using to measures ur parts?
> I am looking to mount a front and rear.
> 
> Thanks
> Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


The mold builder jar or the Slime bottle, typically 16 ozs. Your favorite pint glass would work well too...


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## stumblemumble (Mar 31, 2006)

I do small batches using a laundry detergent measuring cap. Store it in a mason jar. Important thing is it doesn't matter what you use to measure a part, just changes how much you make at a time.


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## EZuphill (Nov 21, 2011)

bsieb said:


> The mold builder jar or the Slime bottle, typically 16 ozs. Your favorite pint glass would work well too...


Thanks. Is that 16oz each part or is oe that how much it will make total? This will be my first attempt at a tubeless setup.

How much brew do i need to put in each tire to start?

Will i use all of the mixed fluid on doing two tire? What is the shelf life like on this brew?

Any other tips for a newbie?

Thanks guys

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

stumblemumble said:


> I do small batches using a laundry detergent measuring cap. Store it in a mason jar. Important thing is it doesn't matter what you use to measure a part, just changes how much you make at a time.


Just curious as to why one would make several small batches instead one large one? I would be afraid the mold builder would dry out once the seal on the jar is broken but admittedly have not tried it. No problems?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Batches last over a year in a sealed jar or container. I usually mix up between a pint and a quart. The standard amount in a tire is 2 ounces for a 26er and 3 ounces for a 29er as far as I am concerned, but others might vary slightly.


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## MotoX33 (Nov 8, 2011)

Whipped up a batch of homeless brew this weekend. After reading through this entire thread and seeing how many times the suggested mixture has changed (in the name of SCIENCE!), I decided to go with 1 part Mold Builder, 1 part Slime, and 2 parts RV Antifreeze. It also seemed that within the last 6 months there has been differing opinions on which order to mix the ingredients in. Thickest to thinnest or thinnest to thickest? Well I decided I would put that debate to rest for myself so I made 2 separate containers, the only difference being the mixing order. I used a paint stirrer attached to a drill to mix them and it worked amazing. After mixing, both brews looked the same and neither contained any boogers, although when I poured antifreeze into the same measuring cup that I measured the mold builder in, it instantly boogered up so I poured it out and cleaned the measuring cup. Time will tell if there really is a difference in mixing order.

One thing to note is that in the mixture that started with mold builder, it was a bit more of a hassle to mix because the mold builder stuck to the sides of the container so I had to scrape it off to get it to mix completely. So if all other things remain the same, I would say to mix thinnest to thickest simply because it mixes easier. Also be sure that the antifreeze and Slime are COMPLETELY mixed before adding mold builder because pure antifreeze + mold builder = boogers.

I highly recommend this:









One mixture will go in my front tire, the other will go in the rear. I will be setting them up ghetto tubeless using the split tube method.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

My experience is that you have to mix the mold builder and slime first and very well or you tend to get large boogers very easily. I have the worlds largest from just such an experiment, but don't have time to take a picture right now.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

EZuphill said:


> When u talk about parts for home brew... what are u using to measures ur parts?


Whatever the "part" comes in. Luckily most things are measured in 8s. Mold builder comes in 16oz. Slime comes in 8oz, 16oz, 32oz. The only thing you gotta measure is the water or antifreeze.

I run a 1:2:2 so I'd like to find Mold builder in 8oz so I could make a smaller batch but what I have works.



bsieb said:


> I would be afraid the mold builder would dry out once the seal on the jar is broken but admittedly have not tried it. No problems?


It will last surprisingly long. I've got a small amount left in the original jar for well over a year and every time I check it (every couple months) it's as good as new. I just checked it and it seems to be a little stiffer than normal. Maybe a film over the top? It still stinks but it's not rubber yet. I'm wondering if the <40º temps in the garage do something to it. Or, maybe it's opened shelf life is right around a year...



yourdaguy said:


> Batches last over a year in a sealed jar or container. I usually mix up between a pint and a quart. The standard amount in a tire is 2 ounces for a 26er and 3 ounces for a 29er as far as I am concerned, but others might vary slightly.


I put 6oz in my 26" 2.5 tires. I care less about the miniscule amount of weight than I do having to refill them. Plus, I might have a really bad day out on the trail and need it


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

EZuphill said:


> When u talk about parts for home brew... what are u using to measures ur parts?
> I am looking to mount a front and rear.
> 
> Thanks
> Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


ok so parts. or best way to say it is a oz.

1 oz Slime
1 oz MB
2 oz RVAF ____________________ This is more than enough for a 26er
----------------------------------------------
or

2 oz Slime
2 oz MB 
4 oz RVAF ___________________ This is more than enough for a 29er
-------------------------------------------------------

4 oz Slime
4 oz MB
8 oz AF ___________________ This will doe 2 or 3 bikes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
also some go more on the RVAF
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like 3/4 oz on my 29er. So it also depends on you. some go 3 oz a wheel. Others go as much as 5oz
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The PARTs more or less is the way they are give you the chance to make you own batches to your needs


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## MotoX33 (Nov 8, 2011)

WerxRacing said:


> ok so parts. or best way to say it is a oz.
> 
> 2 oz Slime
> 2 oz MB
> ...


I think you have the MB and AF switched around. It should be:
8 oz Slime (2 parts)
8 oz AF (2 parts)
4 oz MB (1 part)
or any multiple of that.

*EDIT: Typed this wrong. slocaus is correct in the post below.*


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

MotoX33 said:


> I think you have the MB and AF switched around. It should be:
> 8 oz Slime (2 parts)
> 8 oz AF (2 parts)
> 4 oz MB (1 part)
> or any multiple of that.


NOT for how I do it, sorry.

1 part MB
1 part Slime
2 parts RVAF


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## MotoX33 (Nov 8, 2011)

slocaus said:


> NOT for how I do it, sorry.
> 
> 1 part MB
> 1 part Slime
> 2 parts RVAF


Woops you're right slocaus. Not sure what I was thinking!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

slocaus said:


> NOT for how I do it, sorry.
> 
> 1 part MB
> 1 part Slime
> 2 parts RVAF


Mine is: 
1- MB
1-Slime
3-RVAF or 1-AF (EG), 2-Water

5 parts total instead of 4, seems like the thinner the mix is the longer it lasts around here. Tried a 3 way comparison on a while back. The Caffe Latex was just blowing big bubbles, Stans blew smaller bubbles but wouldn't seal, The 5 part WSS sealed it instantly. 
The tire had a tore up bead but was successfully used the rest of the season with the WSS. Not my tire, btw, I would have just replaced it.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

And there is the beauty of an Open Source Sealant. It can be modified to work in different conditions and with different ingredients, at a cost savings.

Winner! :thumbsup:


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

slocaus said:


> And there is the beauty of an Open Source Sealant. It can be modified to work in different conditions and with different ingredients, at a cost savings.
> 
> Winner! :thumbsup:


Bingo!  :thumbsup: 

Another factor is commonly available ingredients where there is no convenient LBS... same same open source lube.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

WerxRacing said:


> Picked up my stuff today to make WSS 1.0.
> But plan on a small change to the mix
> 
> 1 part latex mbldr, 8oz
> ...


YES YES YES, I so miss typed. This is the mix I made. I was not paying attention to my post. Thank you all for catching it. Hate to lead a member the wrong way. I going to fix it now..


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## pjanda1 (Aug 23, 2011)

To follow up on my previous post, I ended up getting Latex Body Paint. My Home Depot didn't carry the Thin Set Mortar additive. I found it at a local hardware store, but it seemed darn thin (how much latex is actually in there?) and it was $27. So, I got the body paint. It has an ingredient list right on the can: water, natural latex, .3% ammonia. It is thick, goop-y stuff. I mixed it about 1-1 with normal, automotive Slime. I'll head out today and see if it works. It may have gotten a little dry, as I had a hard time getting my valve stems to seal. I don't know how much is actually still in the tire!

But, the point is, I think for those that lack Mold Builder, the latex body paint is a viable alternative. It does cost more, but probably mixes easier. And, unlike the building products, you know all the ingredients and can gauge the amount of latex.

Paul


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## JStrube (Aug 25, 2011)

bsieb said:


> Just curious as to why one would make several small batches instead one large one? I would be afraid the mold builder would dry out once the seal on the jar is broken but admittedly have not tried it. No problems?


I made a small batch the first time & was glad I did. I mixed them in the wrong order & it balled up on me... For me, it is because I have a small storage container. I made a bigger batch the 3rd time once I made sure I was doing it right.


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## a2gtinut (May 23, 2007)

called few Michael's stores and do NOT have Latex Mold Builder. Can somebody give me UPC code so I can ask them about it.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Wow - you're right, Michael's doesn't have latex mold builder. However, there are many brands:
Latex Mold Rubber

I've always used Castin Craft, since it's on the shelf at the local Hobby Lobby.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

I got my mold builder at Michael's. I can go take a pic at the store for the tag info. This way you can ask you store to get it in. That is like a member posted about Party City. The one here does not sale the latex mask builder.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

WerxRacing said:


> Well I found this (AmerSeal) stuff on the shelf at Rule King. Was reading this LONG post again to see if any one has tried it. You are the only post. So how has it worked out? Has anyone else tried it instead or Slime? I seen one other person say it will not be as good. But not see any one using it except for you.


Stil wondering about the AmerSeal. I asked on page 53, a week back


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

upc 52124 11109 4


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## a2gtinut (May 23, 2007)

thanks. They are in NJ and maybe i can get it without shipping.


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## a2gtinut (May 23, 2007)

wadester said:


> Wow - you're right, Michael's doesn't have latex mold builder. However, there are many brands:
> Latex Mold Rubber
> 
> I've always used Castin Craft, since it's on the shelf at the local Hobby Lobby.


which one to get
1.EnvironMolds' Latex Mold Making Rubber
2.Mold Builder Liquid Latex Rubber
3.KreemTex Brushable Mold Making Latex Rubber
4.Rub-R-Mold Flexible Mold Compound


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## GFisher2001 (Mar 16, 2006)

+1 on Michael's carrying Mold Builder. The woman I asked while in the store actually told me "No, we don't carry that." A little poking around and I found it in a random aisle. 

Printed out 50% off coupon before I went so I got the 16oz for ~10.00. 

The coupon was negated by the mask and colored feathers that my daughter had me buy, but that is not relevant to this conversation. :thumbsup:


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

a2gtinut said:


> which one to get
> 1.EnvironMolds' Latex Mold Making Rubber
> 2.Mold Builder Liquid Latex Rubber
> 3.KreemTex Brushable Mold Making Latex Rubber
> 4.Rub-R-Mold Flexible Mold Compound


The second one is what I have used, but if you look at the ingredients, but they are pretty much the same, since they are all "Mold" and "Latex".


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## a2gtinut (May 23, 2007)

GFisher2001 said:


> +1 on Michael's carrying Mold Builder. The woman I asked while in the store actually told me "No, we don't carry that." A little poking around and I found it in a random aisle.
> 
> Printed out 50% off coupon before I went so I got the 16oz for ~10.00.
> 
> The coupon was negated by the mask and colored feathers that my daughter had me buy, but that is not relevant to this conversation. :thumbsup:


where in the store? called two stores and got "No, we don't carry that."


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Half the people that work there don't know what it is or what you are talking about. Tell them it is sometimes called "casting compound" and that it is used to paint inside a mold and then you pull it out and have a cast of the mold. Or you can give them the UPC I posted earlier and tell them to look it up in their computer.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

a2gtinut said:


> which one to get
> 1.EnvironMolds' Latex Mold Making Rubber
> 2.Mold Builder Liquid Latex Rubber (Castin' Craft)
> 3.KreemTex Brushable Mold Making Latex Rubber
> 4.Rub-R-Mold Flexible Mold Compound


That's the one I'm talking about. In the store here, it's on the shelf with the candle making stuff and the plaster of paris.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

slocaus said:


> And there is the beauty of an Open Source Sealant. It can be modified to work in different conditions and with different ingredients, at a cost savings.
> 
> Winner! :thumbsup:


So is the thinner mix better for colder temps and the thicker better for warmer?


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## a2gtinut (May 23, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> upc 52124 11109 4


Called store was told that this is not a valid number :-(


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

GFisher2001 said:


> The coupon was negated by the mask and colored feathers that my daughter had me buy, but that is not relevant to this conversation. :thumbsup:


Daughter, huh? Sure...


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## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

Great thread. :thumbsup:

Just spent the last 2 days reading all of it. Looking at starting my own brew soon and would like to know if anyone ever gave the washing up liquid a serious try so to make the sealant bubble up more? Also has anyone thought of human hair to help seal up larger holes seeming it can easily block up all your plug holes? Thinking of using the waste from electric shavers not pubic hair !!! Also what about using urine as a source of ammonia although it would only be a small percentage of ammonia as its at least 95% water, or am I pissing up the wrong tree?  These are serious questions not a piss take, I'm just waiting on a few products to arrive before experimenting. Going to be using pepper and the rubber modelling grass spoke of before and a latex thickener as thickening the brew was mentioned earlier on in the thread.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

My bad. That is a valid number but for "Rub-R-Mold" brand. I bought it at Dick Blick which is a local art supply store. It is the same stuff though because it says the only ingredients are liquid latex rubber and ammonia. In the past I have bought "Mold Builder" brand from Michael's and I just went out to the garage and red the UPC off the one I have. Michael's doesn't carry the Rub-R-Mold brand.

I got 32 ounces of the Rub-R-Mold stuff for around $12 with a coupon I had.


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## a2gtinut (May 23, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> Half the people that work there don't know what it is or what you are talking about. Tell them it is sometimes called "casting compound" and that it is used to paint inside a mold and then you pull it out and have a cast of the mold. Or you can give them the UPC I posted earlier and tell them to look it up in their computer.


found it but it has totally different upc


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

ruscle said:


> Great thread. :thumbsup:
> 
> Just spent the last 2 days reading all of it. Looking at starting my own brew soon and would like to know if anyone ever gave the washing up liquid a serious try so to make the sealant bubble up more? Also has anyone thought of human hair to help seal up larger holes seeming it can easily block up all your plug holes? Thinking of using the waste from electric shavers not pubic hair !!! Also what about using urine as a source of ammonia although it would only be a small percentage of ammonia as its at least 95% water, or am I pissing up the wrong tree?  These are serious questions not a piss take, I'm just waiting on a few products to arrive before experimenting. Going to be using pepper and the rubber modelling grass spoke of before and a latex thickener as thickening the brew was mentioned earlier on in the thread.


After discussions with a chemist, soap basically separates particles (surface acting agent) - but what you want is coagulation at the puncture. I never tried it in a tire, mostly cuz the foaming didn't really stay with the mix I tried in a jar.

Experiment away! Just be sure to report back.

Also, UPS for Castin' Craft Mold Builder 16 oz: 3333100779


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

After reading only 33 pages of this thread, I am compelled to give some input to the open-source tubless system. There are recurring themes in this thread that drive me to put some information out there to help you along in your sauce cooking.

I am a chemist by title, however my specialties are environmental pollutant behavior and aqueous inorganics. I do not have great authority on chemical engineering or polymer chemistry, but there are some things that are obvious to me that can help this thread. I’ll just string out some bullet points rather than write a dissertation here.

-The working ingredient in WSS and Stan’s is butadiene, otherwise known as the latex monomer. It is a building block for our tire sealant. Mold Maker is a great source, since it is cheap.

-The ammonia is the key to stability and longevity of the sealant inside the tire. Ammonia is a wonderful molecule, and nitrogen is definitely my favorite atom… To keep it short, the ammonia/ammonium solution stabilizes butadiene by a mechanism of hyperconjugation. It prevents the butadiene from polymerizing in our tires. Adding a little bit of ammonia water to your WSS is a very good idea if you want it to last, but I would only suggest a tablespoon per batch. Here is where the Windex guys got it right, it is a convenient additive. When the ammonia gases out of the tire, you are left with latex boogers. When exposed to atmosphere, the latex solution loses ammonia, and polymerizes via a number of mechanisms. Ozone in the atmosphere will start a chain reaction, for one example. 

-pH plays a role in longevity as some of you pointed out. When CO2 is used to inflate a tire, it dissolves in water to form the carbonic acid system. The equilibrium is complicated, but basically it cracks water to free protons and carbonate anions. Carbonate ties up ammonium cation and precipitates out, leaving the butadiene vulnerable to polymerizing chemistry occurring inside the tire, which is not where you want it. So avoid the CO2.

-Propylene glycol is an alcohol that inhibits evaporation, is a slight surfactant, and no doubt has a positive stabilizing effect on the emulsion. Antifreeze, too. You guys already know this. You could also use glycerol, or ethylene glycol, but propylene glycol is really the most suitable.

My advice:

-Use distilled/deionized water, not tap water. Metal salts in tap water can cause premature polymerization.

-Other than as a convenient source of chunks, why use Slime at all? A cheaper, more independent alternative would be to use crushed silica gel pellets instead, along with the dryer lint for fiber. For stabilizing the emulsion and getting the right viscosity, use a spoon or two of xanthan gum from the baking isle at the grocery store. You can eliminate Slime altogether! 


My recommendation for an indy recipe:
32 ounces of butadiene (liquid latex)
One or two tablespoons of ammonia
One quart 50/50 PG antifreeze without corrosion inhibitors
A half scoop of xanthan gum
Two golf balls of dryer lint, pre-shaken in water to disperse
4 to 8 oz of crushed silica gel (be sure it is not the color-changing type, best to pre-hydrate and rinse)

Why pay more?


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

How is thay recipe holding up?

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Incredibly helpful, @eurotrash666! Thank you so much for the information and making me think hard about my university chemistry that I have not used for 30 years. 

Plus rep on this!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

eurotrash666 said:


> My advice:
> 
> propylene glycol is really the most suitable.
> 
> ...


OK, first off: *Thank you very much!* Good info and explanation of the reasoning behind it.

I'll be looking for xanthan gum, since I haven't seen it on the shelf before. I have used sodium alginate for the same purpose - any comments on that material? Contrasts between the two?

Brands of PG antifreeze that don't have corrosion inhibitors? Is this like the RV/drinking water winterizing stuff?

Source for silica gel? Pellet size/how to crush? Also, I'm assuming this is equivalent to the ground rubber chunks in Slime? 
And is this what you Don't want:
Silica Gel, Indicating Beads, Laboratory Grade, 500 g
Amazon.com: Silica Gel, Indicating Beads, Laboratory Grade, 500 g: Industrial & Scientific


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## FastMatt (Nov 8, 2008)

*Thanks for the chemistry lesson...*

I have read through this whole thread at least 2 times, and pieces of it multiple times to try to learn new stuff for any changes to my solution. Thanks for the chemistry lesson!!! I am about due for a new batch and will try your recommendations. The "minor in chemistry" was 15 years ago and I certainly don't use/remember all that stuff!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

And perhaps now is the time to ask again: "what is the difference between latex mold builder and latex paint". You are calling latex butadiene, whereas latex paint is described as polyacrylic.

Differences? Similarities? Same by any other name?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Wade, I am pretty sure that anything that has the term acrylic in it in any way does not have real latex in it. My experience with anything "acrylic" is that it immediately starts to form a crust when exposed to water.

eurotrash666, I too would be interested in the propylene glycol answer. I am thinking it would be RV antifreeze which already has around 50% water and as far as i know, no additives.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> Wade, I am pretty sure that anything that has the term acrylic in it in any way does not have real latex in it. My experience with anything "acrylic" is that it immediately starts to form a crust when exposed to water.


Yes, however - from wikipedia:
"Examples of synthetic latex's are styrene-butadiene rubber, acrylonitrile butadiene styrene, *acrylic polymers*, polyvinyl acetate."

We're mainly using natural latex. Latex paint is a synthetic latex (water suspension of acrylic polymers). Some folks have trouble laying hands on natural latex. Everyone can get latex paint. Some have tried it, but a reasonably successful mix lasts for 6 months or so. Hard to keep up the experimental fervor with 1-2 data points a year. Few report back.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The synthetic stuff doesn't have the same properties. I am not a chemist, but every kind of acrylic caulk, paint, etc. that I have ever put in contact with water, started to harden so I am thinking the solvent is different.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

I'm glad to cause a stir. I've been working on this on my own for a while, since Stan's is too expensive for a 90-day treatment.

I wanted to keep things brief, since attention spans are short. In a thread this long, people are staggered by posts presenting a wall of text, hence the bullet points and brevity. I can elaborate to a nauseating extent, so I thought it would be most constructive to focus and keep this in a useful, digestible format.

I'll try to cover your questions and share what I know without straying too much into nerd-land.



wadester said:


> OK, first off: *Thank you very much!* Good info and explanation of the reasoning behind it.
> 
> I'll be looking for xanthan gum, since I haven't seen it on the shelf before. I have used sodium alginate for the same purpose - any comments on that material? Contrasts between the two?
> 
> ...


Xanthan gum is cheap, and is very good as an emulsifier. It is completely neutral in this context. Amazon sells it, but I can get it at my grocery store on the shelf between Bisquick and Splenda. It is a food thickener. Amazon also sells it, but the grocer is cheaper.

Wade, you were totally on the right track with the alginate, and back in 2009-era posts in this thread, I was really hoping you would make the connection between that and eliminating the Slime from the recipe! The problem with that choice is the monovalent sodium cation, and the resulting negatively charged site on the "alginate" blob. That is disruptive to the sensitive balance we are trying to preserve with the ammonia/ammonium against the butadiene (latex) monomer. Let's keep our ionizing components limited to alcohols instead, in the interest of maintaining ion (conjugate) balance. Which leads to the other point, the colored silica gel. The blue stuff is a cobalt salt hydrate, and the orange stuff is a chromium salt hydrate. The metal cations absolutely must be avoided, the chromium in particular (and bare spots on your aluminum rim while I'm at it). Acknowledging that there are several unknowns and trace elements in a treated tire, reactions will occur that change the oxidation states of these metals, affecting their conjugates in the aqueous solution. Chromium in particular is a candidate as a polymerizing catalyst for the latex (booger starter) within the tire, which is not where we want polymerization to occur. We want polymerization to occur where latex building blocks ooze through a hole in the tire, undergo an oxidation or radical transfer that kicks the polymerization process, and plug the hole. While in the tire, we want the solution to be stable and long lasting. Back to silica, the packets of translucent white silica gel that unnecessarily say "do not eat" are the ones we want- rinsing with water will wash away any modifiers used to keep the beads from clumping. The silica can be crushed the same way you would make bread crumbs for your fried chicken. When hydrated, the balls of silica will pop anyway, and riding your bike will beat them to bits, but it seems like a wise idea to get the particle size distribution set beforehand so that you can successfully mount the tire. The silica is flexible enough to force its way into holes and crevices under tire pressure. It will harden a bit when plugging a hole, but will also act as a conduit for vapor transmission when playing the role of a plug, that is a compromise that may not be an issue as it will be coated in latex. One thing is for sure, it beats the hell out of cornmeal, pepper, or glitter because of it's flexibility.

As for brands of PG as antifreeze, you are right about using the cheap stuff. A better choice would be the PG used for smoke machines or humidors, since that is just PG and deionized water. Avoiding adulterants here is the idea, keep the solution as pure as possible to get the longest life out of it. Any extra organics or salts are a potential detriment to the longevity of the solution, particularly metallic cations and complex organics that have weak sites subject to breakdown into byproducts that are counterproductive to our objective. This is why propylene glycol is better than glycerol, despite the lower fugacity of glycerol it will oxidize to cresol and other byproducts. Ethylene glycol is more stable than propylene, but not as safe and more likely to dry sooner, so PG is a nice middle ground.



wadester said:


> And perhaps now is the time to ask again: "what is the difference between latex mold builder and latex paint". You are calling latex butadiene, whereas latex paint is described as polyacrylic.
> 
> Differences? Similarities? Same by any other name?


Birds of a different feather. Latex paint is a misnomer, there is no latex in it. Natural latex is butadiene (and it's gamut of enantiomers), and butadiene (specifically 1,3-butadiene) is synthesized cheaply by cracking ethanol over a ceric oxide catalyst with heat. It is very simple in structure, and has desirable linking properties while remaining very flexible. OTOH, the paint polymers have ketone groups, making them an entirely different family of plastics.



yourdaguy said:


> Wade, I am pretty sure that anything that has the term acrylic in it in any way does not have real latex in it. My experience with anything "acrylic" is that it immediately starts to form a crust when exposed to water.
> 
> eurotrash666, I too would be interested in the propylene glycol answer. I am thinking it would be RV antifreeze which already has around 50% water and as far as i know, no additives.


I think you're on the right track. It is too expensive to buy reagent grade, so the cheap antifreeze is a good bet. If you are a perfectionist, the fog machine PG is equivalent to FDA grade from what I can tell, since it is unavoidably inhaled where fog machines are used.



wadester said:


> Yes, however - from wikipedia:
> "Examples of synthetic latex's are styrene-butadiene rubber, acrylonitrile butadiene styrene, *acrylic polymers*, polyvinyl acetate."
> 
> We're mainly using natural latex. Latex paint is a synthetic latex (water suspension of acrylic polymers). Some folks have trouble laying hands on natural latex. Everyone can get latex paint. Some have tried it, but a reasonably successful mix lasts for 6 months or so. Hard to keep up the experimental fervor with 1-2 data points a year. Few report back.


Styrene and acryl butadienes are polymers that feature two or more families of monomers strung together. Natural latex or synthetic latex should be strictly butadiene monomers in solution.

I am glad you mentioned polyvinyl alcohol (PVA). I had been toying with the idea of a PVA-based sealant, but I think it would take some experimentation. PVA is safe, water-soluble, edible, and makes a great adhesive. It makes a good "goo" and its viscosity can be controlled. It cross-links in a sort of indiscriminate manner, which is why it is the main ingredient in Elmer's glue. It is a completely different path, however...


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## MotoX33 (Nov 8, 2011)

Is this like the silica gel you are suggesting? Thanks for all the info by the way! Chemistry never was one of my strong subjects.

Amazon.com: Dry-Packs Reuseable Portable Dehumidifier - 200 Gram Silica Gel - Protects 15 CU FT!: Home & Kitchen


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## xcbarny (Jun 10, 2009)

excellent post Eurotrash666

Can I ask why not to use corrosion inhibitors in the antifreeze?
Also if there aren't any corrosion inhibitors, how will this mixture affect alluminium rims?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

OK! Eurotrash for DIY sealant king! Most excellent chem-geeking! We may need to change from WSS (Wadester's Secret Sauce) to EEE! (Eurotrash's Excellent Elixer).



MotoX33 said:


> Is this like the silica gel you are suggesting? Thanks for all the info by the way! Chemistry never was one of my strong subjects.


That's the stuff - but I think it would be cheaper to get it in bulk, rather than packaged. Hobby Lobby has this







for $6/1.5 lbs. I find similar stuff in graded sizes starting at 0.5-1.5mm and going up to 2-4mm. But it's $30/2lbs. Gonna smash it anyways, so flower dryer it is!



xcbarny said:


> excellent post Eurotrash666
> 
> Can I ask why not to use corrosion inhibitors in the antifreeze?
> Also if there aren't any corrosion inhibitors, how will this mixture affect alluminium rims?


The corrosion inhibitors coagulate the latex (booger makers). Ammonia will attack raw aluminum and corrode it - but our rims are anodized, which has converted the surface to aluminum oxide which doesn't react with ammonia. Fresh drilled holes are a bit of a concern, but a proper tape job covers most of that anyways. The exposed part of the rim is at the bead/tape join - or not, if you went ghetto and the split tube covers that.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Sweet Jesus there's too much brain power in this thread!

So, just so I'm clear, we are now possibly:

1. Contemplating removing Slime as it upsets the balance between Mold Builder and the transport/preservatives (RV anti-freeze, etc.).

2. Leaning towards Fog Juice instead of RV anti-freeze in order to get the longest life out of the Home Brew.

3. Using silica beads to both help plug holes (possibly) but mostly to start the polymerization of the mold builder as the mold builder leaves the tire and not inside the tire.

I'm not sure on some about how it all works and fits together but I continue to follow this thread even more eagerly than before...


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

wadester said:


> OK! Eurotrash for DIY sealant king! Most excellent chem-geeking! We may need to change from WSS (Wadester's Secret Sauce) to EEE! (Eurotrash's Excellent Elixer).


No... You guys are the pioneers, the creative thinkers, and the originators of this thread. It stays WSS. I just wanted to drop some hints to make a more stable sauce, clear the air of any "witch's brew" type thinking, and mainly to eliminate the Slime from the mix to make it a true homebrew. The central theme has been enhanced Slime, but I don't think Slime needs to be the secret ingredient. It is convenient, and has great chunkulators, but it is still $17/quart, right?



wadester said:


> That's the stuff - but I think it would be cheaper to get it in bulk, rather than packaged. Hobby Lobby has this for $6/1.5 lbs. I find similar stuff in graded sizes starting at 0.5-1.5mm and going up to 2-4mm. But it's $30/2lbs. Gonna smash it anyways, so flower dryer it is!


I second the flower dryer. Good research, I turned up the same result. I also think the smaller pouches are a good choice, also at Amazon. I'd avoid the desiccant boxes, since some of those are advertized as having color-changing indicators. Probably not true across the board. I've been hoarding the pouches from packaging, pill bottles, etc. The volume will increase when hydrated, it shouldn't take much.



wadester said:


> The corrosion inhibitors coagulate the latex (booger makers). Ammonia will attack raw aluminum and corrode it - but our rims are anodized, which has converted the surface to aluminum oxide which doesn't react with ammonia. Fresh drilled holes are a bit of a concern, but a proper tape job covers most of that anyways. The exposed part of the rim is at the bead/tape join - or not, if you went ghetto and the split tube covers that.


Wade is sharp on the info absorption! In my experience, most circulation fluids have additives. Benzalkonium chloride comes to mind (aka PolyQuat). I really like that chemical, it is something you really want in circulation fluid as a biocide since these alkyl diols (alcohols - PG, EG, etc.) are a potential source of food for microbes if conditions are right. The example of PolyQuat is undesirable, since it ionizes leaving a chloride cation. If we stick to alcohols and water as the only ionizing compounds in our solution, we can extend the life of our sealant.

As Wade noted, ammonia and bare aluminum won't play well together. My issue, other than rim detriment, is with aluminum(II) and ammonium sharing the same conjugate base. Oxidizing aluminum "consumes" ammonia (Lewis base in this case, ammonia/ammonium is the most highly oxidized form of nitrogen that can easily reduce to various NOx products). In aqueous solution, the presence of aluminum oxide hydroxide will force the equilibrium (thus solubility) out of favor for our precious latex stabilizing ammonia molecule. Anodized aluminum, as someone else mentioned, prevents this and does not need to be treated or covered in any way.



big0mike said:


> Sweet Jesus there's too much brain power in this thread!
> 
> So, just so I'm clear, we are now possibly:
> 
> ...


1. Yes to removing Slime, but Slime is not disruptive, it is made of the same stuff we're adding to it to produce the more desirable behavior of WSS. We're just altering the proportions of latex and tuning the PG/water mix to get more sealant building blocks and a slosh that works better in bike tires where sidewall sealing is the major concern up front. If we maintain purity by using choice ingredients, the solution will last longer in the tire. All of the previous formulations work just fine, but can last longer with careful selection of components.

Window cleaner, for example, is a very handy source of ammonia and clean water- but that blue stuff in it is probably copper sulfate. Copper(II) is one of the metal cations to avoid, because it can assist in premature polymerization. *Nobody wants to be embarrassed with ending a ride too soon by having a tire go flaccid in front of their friends- say no to premature polymerization!*

2. It would be prudent for a longer-lasting solution, but it is less convenient to obtain. Purity of Essence.

3. Yes, the silica gel plugs holes. I also liked the idea that was largely ignored many pages back of using that #15 model grass. There are many paths to this end, but silica gel is flexible while still being chunky, lightweight, cheap, available, compatible with the solution, and may form a better plug over time. Silica is a component in your car and bike tire rubber formulations that prolong the life of the tire. It's in pencil erasers, too. It is ammonia that keeps the latex in solution (technically an emulsion) inside the tire, and water is the solvent, silica is inert. Silica's downside is that it can behave like Gore-tex when working as a plug, slowly allowing water vapor to pass through it, and will shrink when the tire finally does go dry. This would be minimal in the polymerized latex matrix of a plug, so I'd call it a non-issue.

PG has a number of possible roles, one of which is hanging onto the water. The diol has all kinds of interaction mechanisms with water, butadiene, and pH. It needs to be in the mix. Nothing wrong with ethylene glycol antifreeze, but it won't last as long, is more toxic, and may have additives. It will, however, still work in the sauce, but I'd like to give optimization advice and advocate propylene glycol without additives instead.


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## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

Studies on this thread have found that the latex made boogers if mixed direct with anti freeze so its been advised to mix it with slime first then add the anti freeze. With the new mix you suggest eurotrash666 whats to stop it boogering up if their is no slime in the mix with the latex first? I ask as have a very simple mind and my head hurts from reading your intelligent posts!!

Wish I took a day longer reading the thread as just bought ingredients for the first mixes mentioned!:madman:


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

ruscle said:


> Studies on this thread have found that the latex made boogers if mixed direct with anti freeze so its been advised to mix it with slime first then add the anti freeze. With the new mix you suggest eurotrash666 whats to stop it boogering up if their is no slime in the mix with the latex first?


It's the xanthan gum that will stabilize the emulsion. Water, ammonia, latex, xanthan gum, shake, then pre-mixed water/PG stirred in until desired consistency should do it. Try a small batch first. I should plan on posting pics. I've got 64 oz of mold maker on the way. I don't have any "neat" PG on hand, I need to find that in Germany since it won't ship. I do have concentrate automotive PG a'la traditional WSS, though.

Xanthan gum, an ester-linked polysaccharide, is inert against the ammonium-conjugated butadiene in water. The functional groups on xanthan gum will interact by H-bond with the alchohols (PG) and with water, thickening the mixture. So long as the latex molecule is bound with ammonium, it will be resistant to polymerization with xanthan gum. The esters, hydroxyls, and ketones in polysaccharide structures will not interact with the quaternary ammonium ion the way that the unsaturated C-C double bonds in butadiene do, making it a good combination.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

I’m having a slow day at work, so I decided to play around some more. Let’s talk about antifreeze.

Tidbit:
Green – ethylene glycol base 
Orange – propylene glycol base 
Orange – ethylene glycol base (extended life)
Red – DexCool – ethylene glycol base (extended life)

Corrosion inhibitors are a real problem, and here’s why- most are either metal salts or organic acids. Metal salts, as I’ve mentioned, pose a two-fold problem between controlling cation balance and eliminating metals as possible polymerization catalysts. 

Most antifreeze has sodium molybdate as a corrosion inhibitor. Other additives are surfactants and organic acid corrosion inhibitors, which are not problems on their own, but we have a particular goal: Ammonia must drive the pH. Adding other stuff adds a disruptive load to this system. We’d like to see ammonia in a slight excess to prolong the life of our sealant. A slight buffering system will exist between water, ammonia/ammonium, the glycols, and to a much lesser extent the acetate groups that make up a small component of the xanthan gum. If adding organic acids increases the demand on ammonium and its conjugate hydroxide (we must saturate the C-C double bonds on the butadiene with ammonium ions), it could lead to a slower set time for sealant that has breached the tire through a puncture or sidewall leak, inhibiting polymerization when we actually want it to occur. It's best to keep it simple.

There’s the argument for running a plain PE solution.

Another note, wash the inside of your new tires before use. Further, brushing on some rubber cement thinned with xylene or toluene and letting it fully dry is a good idea for those pinhole tires like Schwalbes.

Last random thought is a response to a comment around page 20 on bentonite clays- no no no. While it is well intended to consider it as a chunkulator, it would be like salting a slug as far as our sealant goes. Clays are insanely complex layers of mineral fragments that interact in water with charged particles, and will literally be a magnet for ammonium ions, stealing them away from our coveted butadiene and dominating the relationship between the alcohols and their protons, altering pH. Charge equilibrium then gets really messy. I've got semesters of soil chemistry and soil physics behind me, and the thought of introducing clays to the system makes my head hurt.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Well, I don't know about the xantham gum. First I remember hearing it is two posts above but considering 85% of what eurotrash says is incomprehensible to mortals I may have missed it.

But, I do happen to have a bottle of fog juice from Halloween. I think my stash of left over mold builder is dried up so I'll have to get more along with the rubber grass and silica gel and try some experimentation. If I can find some time...

My "normal" mix is 1:2:2 MB, Slime, AF. Where should one start without the slime and including the silica beads & rubber grass?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

eurotrash666 said:


> I'm having a slow day at work, so I decided to play around some more. Let's talk about antifreeze...


Fascinating eurotrash, and while not a chemist I understand what you are saying as far as effect. It's a little like having like having the blinds lifted, thanks so much, please feel free to continue. 

edit: I'm a little unclear about processing the silicate, Will an old coffee grinder work?


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## arphaxhad (Apr 17, 2008)

big0mike said:


> .
> My "normal" mix is 1:2:2 MB, Slime, AF.


This is my mix too. What proportion of silica would one add to such a mix?

I guess that I am not the norm in that I only mix enough for a set of tires at a time. I feel that the ingredients have a longer shelf life unmixed rather than mixed (please correct me if I am wrong or the difference is negligible)

I mix 2oz MB, 4oz slime and 4oz AF into a shaker cup and have 5oz for each tire. What, about 1/2 tsp of silica for this method?

Appreciate your expertise...


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

arphaxhad said:


> This is my mix too. What proportion of silica would one add to such a mix?
> 
> I guess that I am not the norm in that I only mix enough for a set of tires at a time. I feel that the ingredients have a longer shelf life unmixed rather than mixed (please correct me if I am wrong or the difference is negligible)
> 
> ...


If I understand correctly, the silica gel and dryer lint would replace the Slime.

My experience has been that an 80 oz batch lasts me a year+ for 3 wheelsets and generous sharing at the bike cabin without any apparent change in appearance and viscosity. So for me it lasts until it is gone.


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## mucky (Dec 17, 2010)

What is PG?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

So, to reiterate the basic sealant ingredient classes:

Things that plug holes - or chunkulation (latex, fibers, chunks)

Fluid that carries those things around and gets them to the hole they need to plug. (water, antifreeze/etc)

Slime is already a sealant in it's own right, with fibers, chunks, and carrier fluid. We have been basically tarting it up with latex and more carrier fluid.

What Eurotrash is giving us is a way to step back from Slime and make our own equivalent. The chemistry part is about better, longer performance from the recipe.

Now that we've got some new ingredients, we start experimenting with proportions. 

An already mixed up batch could be improved by the addition of - as a first cut:
1 tablespoon of clear ammonia cleaner per pint of latex
1 cup of lightly crushed (wide range of stuff from dust to unbroken) flower drying silica gel (or salvaged from "do not eat" packers) covered in distilled water/propylene glycol (after soaking in same)

This should make your mix more stable and give it a wider range of chunkulation.

I did a search of marine/rv antifreeze, and wow - it's all over the place. I recalled it being a straight blend of 50/50 propylene glycol& pure water, which is great. But depending on the mfg, you can also have isopropyl alcohol, dipotassium phosphate and other "undesirable" ingredients. Look for "nontoxic" and avoid "coolant"

I would use Eurotrash's suggested recipe if starting fresh. If things work well, we'll have some data in a year or so.......


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

mucky said:


> What is PG?


Propylene Glycol


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Also, the only ingredient that has a questionable shelf life once opened - is latex. I have come back to partial containers of latex and found them to be dried out to some degree, but this was in a 1 pint plastic screwtop jar. A buddy bought a gallon of latex in a steel paint can, and it was fine at least thru the first 1/2 gallon (haven't seen/heard/asked since then)

Once the latex is in the mix, I have not observed any real change in my 2 1/2 quart batches.


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## a2gtinut (May 23, 2007)

what do you mean avoid coolant? I am planning to use left over Vw/Audi (G12) PG coolant mixed with distilled water.


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## mucky (Dec 17, 2010)

So a new recipe would be:

8oz. - Latex
1 tbsp - Amonia
1 cup - Silica gel Soaked
Would the soak be a 50/50 mix of PG & Distilled water

Old recipe was: 5 part mix seemed to be best by general consensus:
2 oz. - Latex
2 oz. - Slime
6 oz. - RV Antifreeze

What is used to replace the volume of Slime & the RVAF? Just the extra latex?
Would we still ad the PG or RV antifreeze or PG/Distilled Water? If so, how much?


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## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

You only want to use anti freeze and non toxic is best, I think its about the additives in the toxic type or coolants that will break down the mix resulting in a shorter life span.


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## a2gtinut (May 23, 2007)

mucky said:


> So a new recipe would be:
> 
> 8oz. - Latex
> 1 tbsp - Amonia
> ...


I think eurotrash was talking about poor glicol like smoke juice. 
I will try new recipe with smoke juice from Guitar Center.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

a2gtinut said:


> what do you mean avoid coolant? I am planning to use left over Vw/Audi (G12) PG coolant mixed with distilled water.


The point to avoiding coolant - is that it all has anticorrosive additives in it. My first try with brand name PG antifreeze/coolant instantly coagulated latex. The cheaper the coolant - the less additive, and the better for us.

You have to recall: the "old school" recipe would last up to a year. Following Eurotrash advice may possibly extend that life noticeably. How would you like to put sealant in a tire when it was new and have it last the life of the tire?

Eurotrash blend - good to the last drop......


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## mucky (Dec 17, 2010)

wadester said:


> The point to avoiding coolant - is that it all has anticorrosive additives in it. My first try with brand name PG antifreeze/coolant instantly coagulated latex. The cheaper the coolant - the less additive, and the better for us.
> 
> You have to recall: the "old school" recipe would last up to a year. Following Eurotrash advice may possibly extend that life noticeably. How would you like to put sealant in a tire when it was new and have it last the life of the tire?
> 
> Eurotrash blend - good to the last drop......


So wadester,

Would the recipe I posted earlier be right? And can you answer any of my questions?


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

Eurotrash, thank you so much!


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## rideandshoot (Dec 18, 2006)

Which page has the ultimate hot weather recipe... :madman:

If it would last 6 weeks in my garage here in Phoenix I'd pay more for it but I will be retired before I sift through this whole thing and find the holy WSS


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

mucky said:


> So a new recipe would be:
> 
> 8oz. - Latex
> 1 tbsp - Amonia
> ...


You're missing the dryer lint/hairball! Oh, but my experiments with dryer lint showed me that it thickened the mix like mad. I'm thinking about keeping the same general proportions as before, like:
1 latex+1tbsp ammonia
1 soaking wet chunkulations
3 straight carrier fluid (50/50)

Or my preference, 1:2:2


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## mucky (Dec 17, 2010)

wadester said:


> You're missing the dryer lint/hairball! Oh, but my experiments with dryer lint showed me that it thickened the mix like mad. I'm thinking about keeping the same general proportions as before, like:
> 1 latex+1tbsp ammonia
> 1 soaking wet chunkulations
> 3 straight carrier fluid (50/50)
> ...


Thank for the reply, hard work and help.

What is the carrier fluid? Will the RVAF still be o.k. or would cheap AF with the least additives+ distilled water be better. Or even the Fog juice that was mentioned. I guess I'm still unsure on the portion of PG,RVAF or whatever, should be added.


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## a2gtinut (May 23, 2007)

wadester said:


> The point to avoiding coolant - is that it all has anticorrosive additives in it. My first try with brand name PG antifreeze/coolant instantly coagulated latex. The cheaper the coolant - the less additive, and the better for us.
> 
> You have to recall: the "old school" recipe would last up to a year. Following Eurotrash advice may possibly extend that life noticeably. How would you like to put sealant in a tire when it was new and have it last the life of the tire?
> 
> Eurotrash blend - good to the last drop......


then, going to buy Fog Juice and us it instead of cheap RV glicol which I got from my dad.


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## mucky (Dec 17, 2010)

a2gtinut said:


> then, going to buy Fog Juice and us it instead of cheap RV glicol which I got from my dad.


Are you going to mix it with water?


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## a2gtinut (May 23, 2007)

mucky said:


> Are you going to mix it with water?


yes


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## mucky (Dec 17, 2010)

a2gtinut said:


> yes


Will it be a 50/50 mix.
Some research I just did seem to say that fog juice has water in it. There are some DIY recipes on the net with varying amounts of glycerine and water, but a 50/50 mix seems average. With pre-made juice, I wonder what the amount of water is.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Hell, I don't recall the mention of ammonia Windex/glass cleaner. Can you get just straight ammonia at Home Deport or something?


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## mucky (Dec 17, 2010)

big0mike said:


> Hell, I don't recall the mention of ammonia Windex/glass cleaner. Can you get just straight ammonia at Home Deport or something?


Yup. Wal-Mart or equivalent. Probably in the cleaning isle, maybe by vinegar or bleach.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

big0mike said:


> Well, I don't know about the xantham gum. First I remember hearing it is two posts above but considering 85% of what eurotrash says is incomprehensible to mortals I may have missed it.
> 
> My "normal" mix is 1:2:2 MB, Slime, AF. Where should one start without the slime and including the silica beads & rubber grass?





arphaxhad said:


> What proportion of silica would one add to such a mix?





bsieb said:


> If I understand correctly, the silica gel and dryer lint would replace the Slime.


Yes, I'm proposing chunkulators that are inert, simple, easy to find, and cheap. There are a ton of things that will work here, as we've seen in the variety of chunkulators in the commercial formulations. The silica gel has a unique property, it is like Jello, except much, much more firm. You know how Jello is, you can break it into chunks and slurp it through a straw&#8230; or push it through a hole in a tire, while still having large enough chunks (like Stan's cornmeal) to plug a large puncture. Shaved rubber is a good idea, so is any other convenient form of grit that agrees with the tire and does not react with the fluid.



wadester said:


> So, to reiterate the basic sealant ingredient classes:
> 
> Things that plug holes - or chunkulation (latex, fibers, chunks)
> 
> ...


Wade is on point! We've got chunks, fluid, and latex, but don't forget thickener. That's what Slime is, and that's what Stan's is, which is why there is no need to base the formula around Slime at $17/quart.

Yes, Windex and just about any old antifreeze will work, but my goal is stability. Removing rubber boogers and constantly making sure there is enough sealant to do its job on the trail is a pain in the butt. It is a never ending chore for us with more than one bike. Careful consideration to the ingredients will extend the life of the sealant&#8230; maybe even as long as the life of the tire (if weepers are sealed beforehand, e.g. by brushing Shoe Goo thinned with xylene into the tire before mounting and giving 48+ hours or so to dry).



wadester said:


> Also, the only ingredient that has a questionable shelf life once opened - is latex


My first thought is to put a quarter teaspoon of ammonia water in the jar, unstirred, before closing. Do so at your own caution, I haven't tried it yet, but in theory&#8230;



a2gtinut said:


> I think eurotrash was talking about poor glicol like smoke juice.
> I will try new recipe with smoke juice from Guitar Center.





a2gtinut said:


> then, going to buy Fog Juice and us it instead of cheap RV glicol which I got from my dad.





mucky said:


> Will it be a 50/50 mix.
> Some research I just did seem to say that fog juice has water in it. There are some DIY recipes on the net with varying amounts of glycerine and water, but a 50/50 mix seems average. With pre-made juice, I wonder what the amount of water is.


I don't have enough post count to insert links, but Amazon sells "Froggy's Fog 99.9% pure USP food grade propylene glycol" for $35/gallon (also in quarts and half gallons) as a DIY fog juice ingredient. Pre-mix fog juice has PG, water, and glycerol (glycerin) in it. Glycerol will not hurt the sauce, it is actually useful in there, but it is a weaker molecule than PG, subject to degradation more easily. Check the MSDS for your fog juice, but should be okay. Remember, I'm focused on optimization, so a pure PG or PG/water mix of known proportion without additives is ideal.



mucky said:


> What is the carrier fluid? Will the RVAF still be o.k. or would cheap AF with the least additives+ distilled water be better. Or even the Fog juice that was mentioned. I guess I'm still unsure on the portion of PG,RVAF or whatever, should be added.





wadester said:


> The point to avoiding coolant - is that it all has anticorrosive additives in it. <snip> Following Eurotrash advice may possibly extend that life noticeably. How would you like to put sealant in a tire when it was new and have it last the life of the tire?


Nailed it again.



wadester said:


> You're missing the dryer lint/hairball! Oh, but my experiments with dryer lint showed me that it thickened the mix like mad. I'm thinking about keeping the same general proportions as before, like:
> 1 latex+1tbsp ammonia
> 1 soaking wet chunkulations
> 3 straight carrier fluid (50/50)
> ...


Here's where experimentation will tell. Xanthan gum should be around 2% by weight for starters, but the final solution can be thickened or thinned at any time with more xanthan gum or less water. Proportions are the key to desirable behavior, the balance between good distribution and effective sealing at any point in the tire's carcass while in use.

I think a good starting point should be:
1 part deionized water with xanthan gum added and well mixed (maybe ½ to 1 tsp per cup starting point)
1 part propylene glycol-water pre-mixed to 1:1 or 2:1 (prevent coagulation upon mixing)
1 part latex and chunkulators, probably 2:1 for this component

Sound complicated?

I'm suggesting the final solution should be no more than 30% PG, and the xanthan gum should be about 2% by weight of the total. I think latex should be about a third of the solution, with chunkulators added to make a reasonable mixture- probably 10-15% of the total by volume. I advise adding a tablespoon of ammonia per quart of final solution at the very most.

Mixing should go like this: Starting with deionized/distilled water, add xanthan gum and ammonia, shake well. Next, add latex, and shake well. Then add pre-diluted PG/water (I think concentrated PG should be diluted to 2:1 or 1:1, and this diluted solution should be 1/3 of the total), shake well. Finally, add chunks to make up 10-15% of the total, or whatever consistency seems suitable. Adjust for thickness with more xanthan gum or thin with water if it is too thick at the very end.

There is method to my madness with the sequence of mixing I am suggesting, and that is based on all that chemistry I babbled about the last two pages of this thread.

Again, chunkulators are up to you, and the purity of ingredients you choose are up to you, the stability and longevity are the compromise when using substitute ingredients. The xanthan gum is needed to play the key role that slime had been playing in WSS. Dryer lint is just an idea to replace the fiber found in slime. It is mostly cotton and a little nylon/hair&#8230; but everybody has access to it. Silica gel could just as easily be replaced by rubber shavings or something else.

My ingredients are ordered and on their way for this foray, so the experimentation phase with actual mixture now begins. We know the theory, and have cut the hocus-pocus. We've reduced the cost and eliminated the patented product from the mix. Not bad for a community project, eh?



big0mike said:


> Hell, I don't recall the mention of ammonia Windex/glass cleaner. Can you get just straight ammonia at Home Deport or something?


Lots of people used latex and window cleaner with good results, I mentioned it only to share the chemistry and theoretical role in the mix. Ultimately, it will shorten the life of your sealant.



wadester said:


> Eurotrash blend - good to the last drop......


How about "The People's Open-Source Tubeless Solution" comrade?

Lastly, how could anybody miss this? A slogan if I've ever heard one:


eurotrash666 said:


> *Nobody wants to be embarrassed with ending a ride too soon by having a tire go flaccid in front of their friends- say no to premature polymerization!*


----------



## WrecklessREX (Feb 25, 2011)

eurotrash666, Outstanding! Thank You


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> I think a good starting point should be:
> 1 part deionized water with xanthan gum added and well mixed (maybe ½ to 1 tsp per cup starting point)
> 1 part propylene glycol-water pre-mixed to 1:1 or 2:1 (prevent coagulation upon mixing)
> 1 part latex and chunkulators, probably 2:1 for this component
> ...


Quoted so that the WSS III or ETSS I recipe is all by itself... Excellent work. Hopefully the theories hold up :thumbsup:


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Eurotrash, can you shed any light on the sidewall weeping process? Is this weeping something that progresses as the sealant solution ages? I have always assumed it was due to mechanical causes but now I wonder...

I/We really appreciate your expertise and intellectual curiosity, it was getting a little boring collecting data points, the time is right to fuel some real progress, and a great little cabin fever antidote. :thumbsup: I'm going on an expedition to see what I can come up with in my smallish border town supermarket, walmart, and home depot resource pool. I will miss the minty green of the original formula...


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Ditto bsieb's question. How much do you thin the Shoe Goo that you mentioned brushing on the interior of the sidewall? Has this worked in practice or just a theory?

Thanks for the detailed write-ups Eurotrash.


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## a2gtinut (May 23, 2007)

so, finding locally cheap Propylene Glycol did not work. Guitar Center has Fog Juice but no info what is made of just "... Glycols"
Next step, pharmacy or online. This was I can get pure PG.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

eurotrash666 said:


> Wade is on point!


Thanks. I may be just a mechanical engineer, but I was doing me best!
But you, sir, are freaking outrageous. You have definitely breathed new life into the project!
And we thank you for it.



eurotrash666 said:


> How about "The People's Open-Source Tubeless Solution" comrade?


POSTS? T-POSTS? It. Might. Work.

Also, bought flower drying silica gel. 1-5% indicator treated beads. Meh. 6$ for nearly a quart, I can sort a few blue ones out vs ordering online. Or waiting to gather packets.

To order pure PG: google is your friend. $35/gallon shipped from Amazon, or go here:
Buy Wholesale Propylene Glycol $12.50/qt+S&H. Gallon is about the same as amazon.

Since I just recently whooped up a big batch of old-school recipe, I'm gonna go with the tart-up approach. Just messin' with silica for starters.

PS: I too will miss the alien-in-a-blender green color. What color shall POSTS be? Yellow like Post-Its? Can Eurotrash recommend a nonreactive colorant? What's available? Purple would be excellent, but no point in purifying for longevity then ditching it for pretty.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Purple food coloring will be my choice  Was gonna ask the masters what it would do to the mix. Blood red would be cool too.

Sent from my Thunderbolt via Tapatalk


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> Purple food coloring will be my choice  Was gonna ask the masters what it would do to the mix. Blood red would be cool too.
> 
> Sent from my Thunderbolt via Tapatalk


Don't forget that the latex will make it pastel, no matter what.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

bsieb said:


> Eurotrash, can you shed any light on the sidewall weeping process? I have always assumed it was due to mechanical causes but now I wonder...





ktm520 said:


> Ditto bsieb's question. How much do you thin the Shoe Goo that you mentioned brushing on the interior of the sidewall? Has this worked in practice or just a theory?
> .


I was resistant to tubeless for a long time. I had all of the arguments sorted in favor of rolling with tubes, and stuck with them... Until I moved to the deepest, darkest woods in western Europe. California hardpack had the goatheads, Tahoe sand and Nevada decomposed granite would swallow tires unexpectedly when pressure and tread weren't just right, and pinch flats were always a consequence of riding aggressively. None of that could get me to switch. Now I live in a temperate hardwood rainforest, where sandstone bedrock is mingled with slippery tree roots and everything is covered in damp moss and lichen. Everybody on the trail rolled on Schwalbe tires- Ralphs for the fire road climbers, Albert for the shuttle riders, and Nic for the trail riders. The bike shops remove OEM tires and sell all their bikes with Schwalbes mounted. Why was that? The Tioga Blue Dragons that worked so well for me in the Sierras seemed to send me washing out on off-camber singletrack. Maybe the Germans were onto something... Turns out, the German company was making tires specific to the local terrain, it was all to obvious after my first ride on Nics. I watched the way my riding buddies' tires flexed and gripped the roots and rocks, and decided to join them with tubeless. What a difference in the ride...

...And what a pain in the ass to set up! :madman: The latest batch of Schwalbe's "tubeless ready" tires wept through the sidewalls for days, requiring a replenish of Stan's after a couple days of flip-flop, shake, and spin to get them to seal. They weep because the sidewalls are thin, and just not airtight. The beads are good, the weight was down quite a bit from the old UST versions, but they weren't fully rubberized, so out with the paintbrush and Shoe Goo. Soap wash and rinse the inside of the tire. Thin the rubber cement with whatever petroleum you have on hand so that it brushes thin (thin like a watery paint) and turn the tire inside out. Brush the inside, and if you have bead sealing problems brush the bead- but it must be a very thin coat, if you let the cement build up on the bead it won't do it's job as a clincher. That seals the pinholes, or at least improves it. There is a mechanical process, the sidewall is where the tire flexes most, but pre-sealing the tires before mounting with a thinned cement is a lot better than sweaty sidewalls and a slow sealing process for new tires. This really doesn't apply to UST tires or ones with thick sidewalls and uniform coating. Thin tires that weep can be helped out a little by doing this. I've done it to old tires that have degraded sidewalls to get more tread life out of them recently.



wadester said:


> Also, bought flower drying silica gel. 1-5% indicator treated beads. Meh. 6$ for nearly a quart, I can sort a few blue ones out vs ordering online. Or waiting to gather packets.
> 
> PS: I too will miss the alien-in-a-blender green color. What color shall POSTS be? Yellow like Post-Its? Can Eurotrash recommend a nonreactive colorant? What's available? Purple would be excellent, but no point in purifying for longevity then ditching it for pretty.


Nothing wrong with picking out the blue silica beads, probably doesn't take too long.

Color... I can see why you'd want it, burping a tire sealed with this stuff may leave you looking like the star of a Japanese Bukkake video... :eekster: Yikes. I apologize for that image.

A drop or two of food coloring will not hurt the mix. Food dye will be stable at the high pH and won't react. By adding dye you are adding a very small amount of sodium cation, but I'd say it is insignificant at two drops per quart. Most of the dyes that I have made in the lab are unstable and some involve metals complexing, so I took a few minutes to look at the FDA dyes on Wikipedia, and all of the ones that are currently legal for food additives are Sauce-safe at the molecular level, so go for it. :thumbsup:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Just want to add that on the rare occasion that you have an accident with the current mixture it does not stain. If you add food coloring to the new mixture, we might not be able to make the same statement.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Originally Posted by eurotrash666 
I think a good starting point should be:
1 part deionized water with xanthan gum added and well mixed (maybe ½ to 1 tsp per cup starting point)
1 part propylene glycol-water pre-mixed to 1:1 or 2:1 (prevent coagulation upon mixing)
1 part latex and chunkulators, probably 2:1 for this component


If I interpret this correctly; this mixture is almost 50% water if you use the 1:1 PG water ratio in part2. Even if you use the 2:1 ratio, the mixture is 40% water. Since water tends to evaporate faster than some of the other components, would we not get a longer lasting mixture with more PG and Xantham Gum, etc and less water?


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## JStrube (Aug 25, 2011)

Hey Eurotrash666, go to a nothing thread & post a few m"me toos" so you can post links... Just need to bump your post count a small amount...


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

JStrube said:


> Hey Eurotrash666, go to a nothing thread & post a few m"me toos" so you can post links... Just need to bump your post count a small amount...


Use the test forum http://forums.mtbr.com/test-forum/ 
or the mods may get after you and delete them, then you loose post count.


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## brad890 (Oct 10, 2011)

Hi guys, I've been following this post for a while and have actually made and am running some of the WWS, with very good results

basically i used the
1 part slime
1 part latex
2 parts water 


reading the newer post see there is talk of this formula, which eliminates the need of a off the shelf sealant.

Originally Posted by eurotrash666 

1 part deionized water with xanthan gum added and well mixed (maybe ½ to 1 tsp per cup starting point)
1 part propylene glycol-water pre-mixed to 1:1 or 2:1 (prevent coagulation upon mixing)
1 part latex and chunkulators, probably 2:1 for this component


what i want to know what have people being using for chunkulators?

I see some say dryer lint, but i'm not too keen on that, I'd rather use something like what one finds in joes or stans, this crushed up rubbery stuff?

It would be great if anyone could post some e-bay or amazon links of stuff one can use as chunkulators?

being from south africa its quite hard to find the american brands and stuff people talk abut here, but to find a type of product I.E. antifreeze, ammonia etc that i can ask around for and source


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

brad890 said:


> Originally Posted by eurotrash666
> 
> 1 part deionized water with xanthan gum added and well mixed (maybe ½ to 1 tsp per cup starting point)
> 1 part propylene glycol-water pre-mixed to 1:1 or 2:1 (prevent coagulation upon mixing)
> ...


Read @eurotrash666 posts carefully instead of skimming. He teills you more than you have asked. :thumbsup:


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## brad890 (Oct 10, 2011)

-Other than as a convenient source of chunks, why use Slime at all? A cheaper, more independent alternative would be to use crushed silica gel pellets instead, along with the dryer lint for fiber. For stabilizing the emulsion and getting the right viscosity, use a spoon or two of xanthan gum from the baking isle at the grocery store. You can eliminate Slime altogether!

My recommendation for an indy recipe:
32 ounces of butadiene (liquid latex)
One or two tablespoons of ammonia
One quart 50/50 PG antifreeze without corrosion inhibitors
A half scoop of xanthan gum
Two golf balls of dryer lint, pre-shaken in water to disperse
4 to 8 oz of crushed silica gel (be sure it is not the color-changing type, best to pre-hydrate and rinse)

Why pay more?[/QUOTE]



slocaus said:


> Read @eurotrash666 posts carefully instead of skimming. He teills you more than you have asked. :thumbsup:


ok ok my bad I've gone back and read all his posts, I see that silica gel is a option for a chunkilator, will that alone be sufficient? if so can one use the cat litter silica gel? as long as it doesnt have a colour changer of course


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

A quick look at silica gel. This is the flower drying stuff, small % of blue indicator.

1) 1 1/2lb silica, 1 cup separated (showing removed indicator)
2) See? A cup
3) Covered with 50/50 EG/tap water (this is to tart an existing batch, so not purist yet)
4) After a bit. No major volume increase, even after a few hours. NOTE: Sizzled like poprocks at first, and got a little warm (not hot).

Other notes: 
I didn't crush the gel - it already had a very wide range of particles. I'm thinking blenderize perhaps small amounts to increase amount of smalls and add back to untouched.
This stuff is bouncy! Pour into glass bowl, and some leaps onto floor!


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## brad890 (Oct 10, 2011)

wadester said:


> A quick look at silica gel. This is the flower drying stuff, small % of blue indicator.
> 
> 1) 1 1/2lb silica, 1 cup separated (showing removed indicator)
> 2) See? A cup
> ...


quick question wade

did the silica become soft or jelly like once wet? or does it stay reasonably hard like a stone? and if you try crush it between your fingers does it crumble?

I'm just curious as i've never really played around with the stuff


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

brad890 said:


> quick question wade
> 
> did the silica become soft or jelly like once wet? or does it stay reasonably hard like a stone? and if you try crush it between your fingers does it crumble?
> 
> I'm just curious as i've never really played around with the stuff


Me either. So!

1) 3 full size beads, one crushed using pressure from screwdriver handle. Looking at the scale, these are 3mm(ish) beads.
2) One soaked bead, same approach. You can see the wet spot, and the absence of "dust" grade. It still fractured, but with a bit more pressure, so wasn't as brittle. The beads are a bit small to actually feel a texture difference, but I'm not getting a "rubbery" feel even digging a fingernail into a bead.

I'm now thinking that it all needs crushing/blending, but pre or post hydration?


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

yourdaguy said:


> If I interpret this correctly; this mixture is almost 50% water if you use the 1:1 PG water ratio in part2. Even if you use the 2:1 ratio, the mixture is 40% water. Since water tends to evaporate faster than some of the other components, would we not get a longer lasting mixture with more PG and Xantham Gum, etc and less water?


Yep, the majority has to be water. Water is the solvent for the glycol and the xanthan gum, and it takes plenty of water to get a good sphere of solvation around those molecules. The interaction of water, the diol alcohol, and polysachharide includes hydrogen bonding. I would have to invoke Raoult's law for fugacity, where the individual vapor pressures of each component are factored into the vapor pressure of the solution which can be treated as a whole. In other words, the water component becomes more resistant to evaporation when in a solution with glycol because they affect each other. Quantifying the effect of xanthan gum would be difficult to do, I'd have to work at that, but it has some effect on the vapor pressure of the solution as well. Experimentation will be the the logical step. As for calculating the ammonia's escaping tendency when the ionized fraction is hyperconjugated with the terminal C=C double bonds of the butadiene in solution, I think that would take someone far more educated in the field of physical chemistry than I am... and some real fancy computer code. Take it a little further, and consider the solution is under 2.5 bar air pressure, then against a very restrictive membrane (tire). Yow. The short answer, though, is yes, that is the amount of water I had in mind.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

wadester said:


> (cool wadester post)


Yep, yer an engineer! Love the pics. Seems like a good fit for the sauce you think?


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

brad890 said:


> ok ok my bad I've gone back and read all his posts, I see that silica gel is a option for a chunkilator, will that alone be sufficient? if so can one use the cat litter silica gel? as long as it doesnt have a colour changer of course


I think it is up to experimentation for chunkulators, we'll have to see who has the gnarly gashes in their tires and reporting the results before we know for sure what sufficient chunkulation is. I think there are plenty of things out there that are cheap and will do the chunkulation job, just not glitter... Maybe oatmeal... in case you get hungry on the trail. :thumbsup:

The cat litter silica is probably the cheapest way to get it, I had that in my mental notes and spaced out on it, yes very good source.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Here's the MSDS for Shoe Goo. It is very informative, as it lists chemical compatibilities. Both antifreeze and ammonia solution are on the compatible fluids list. Toluene is the main solvent.
http://eclecticproducts.com/_tds/sg_r01_tds.pdf


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I have noticed that polar fleece lint is a very nice plastic fiber and asked my wife to collect some. She hates waste and was glad for the opportunity to repurpose it to her bike tires.


----------



## mucky (Dec 17, 2010)

I was thinking of cutting up some old nylon shoe laces in place of lint.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Last batch (basically WSS, a little extra slime) I used the shavings from a pencil sharpener for a chunkulatory additive and I think it was highly effective in speeding up the sealing process. Just another option...
I'm fascinated by this new recipe and will give it a shot! Too cool. :thumbsup:


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

CommuterBoy said:


> Last batch (basically WSS, a little extra slime) I used the shavings from a pencil sharpener for a chunkulatory additive and I think it was highly effective in speeding up the sealing process. Just another option...
> I'm fascinated by this new recipe and will give it a shot! Too cool. :thumbsup:


Actually, from a previous discussion, cellulose fibers should be fine. For a more standardized version, look up paper making supplies. You can buy a wide variety of fibers; cotton, banana leaf (abaca), hemp......


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## brad890 (Oct 10, 2011)

quick question, maybe you'll be able to answer eurotrash with your chemical background.

this whole story of tires delaminating, does anyone know what actually causes it and what can e done to prevent it, was discussing home made sealant with a friend and he brought up the topic, which got me thinking.

what actually causes it and could the home made slime recipe's spoken about throughout this thread actually cause it?


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## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

I would guess that its the ammonia causing the delaminating of tyres, seems to be really slow acting as have had sealant in tyres for ages and the tread has gone long before any signs of delaminating


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

If they are not delaminating on the inside, then it is not the sealant causing it but a manufacturing defect.


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## brad890 (Oct 10, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> If they are not delaminating on the inside, then it is not the sealant causing it but a manufacturing defect.


but could the slime cause it to delaminate on the inside?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Yes, but I have never seen a tire delaminate on the inside


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Doubt it. Tire manufacturing is pretty amazing stuff. I'm siding with yourdaguy. Possible if two layers were not vulcanized, say the inner rubber is adhered only to the ply without being in contact with the next layer of rubber, and the ply is "wetted" (word used in the context of surfactants) by the PG... but I doubt that would happen with good tires. Our chemicals are no different than Stan's or Slime, really.


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

Kept having some burps last night, had to refill air twice on the trail. Every sharp turn I would hear air burst out. Last quarter mile my tire peeled off the rim. 
It's been a couple months and I keep my bike in the garage. Is it time to redo my sealant? 

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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> Yes, but I have never seen a tire delaminate on the inside





eurotrash666 said:


> Doubt it. Tire manufacturing is pretty amazing stuff. I'm siding with yourdaguy. Possible if two layers were not vulcanized, say the inner rubber is adhered only to the ply without being in contact with the next layer of rubber, and the ply is "wetted" (word used in the context of surfactants) by the PG... but I doubt that would happen with good tires. Our chemicals are no different than Stan's or Slime, really.


I have seen a number of Kenda tires delaminate. Kenda has a warranty disclaimer on each tire about using sealant.

Thread here on MTBR.
http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/kenda-warranty-void-sealant-100270.html

They do not even warranty using a sealant in their own UST tires.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

What rims do you have? What brand of tire?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

kikoraa said:


> Kept having some burps last night, had to refill air twice on the trail. Every sharp turn I would hear air burst out. Last quarter mile my tire peeled off the rim.
> It's been a couple months and I keep my bike in the garage. Is it time to redo my sealant?
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


HaHa! Seriously, consider eyeballing the sealant level once a month.

Thanks for a timely reminder of why we are pursuing longer sealant life. :thumbsup:


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

Mavic tn719 
With wtb exiwolf 2.3 front and schwalbe little Albert 2.1 rear 
Using gorilla tape method and homemade sealant. 

It's been sitting in ny garage for almost 3 months and Ive been riding almost everyday the past 2 weeks since its been warmer. 


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Those rims are not tubeless rims. If they don't have the Stans bump, burping can be a problem even if you do the ghetto thing perfectly.


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

So its not a matter of time and extreme temperature change from my garage and not being ridden? I was planning on investing in the stans kit now that I love tubeless. 

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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

kikoraa said:


> So its not a matter of time and extreme temperature change from my garage and not being ridden? I was planning on investing in the stans kit now that I love tubeless.
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


Not riding the bike is a known sealant killer. It all sits in one place and has time to get all "friendly" with itself - and coagulate. As long as I'm riding once every week or two, it's not a problem. Especially with multiple bikes, one may sit for a long time - it happens.

Ideally, the "new improved" purebrew we're talking about now should be able to rise above this issue.


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

What's the new brew recipeif you don't mind posting it. 

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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

kikoraa said:


> What's the new brew recipeif you don't mind posting it.
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


Still under development - but look a page back at posts by Eurotrash666. One main idea is getting away from using coolant grade antifreeze, which has all sorts of additives that promote coagulation of latex - in the tire.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

You know, ever since I switched to using RV antifreeze in the v1 mix, every tire I have used it in developed a huge bugger after a couple months. Could be coincidence, but do you all think the RV antifreeze is as bad as coolant when it comes to the additives that cause coagulation?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

kikoraa said:


> What's the new brew recipeif you don't mind posting it.
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk





ktm520 said:


> You know, ever since I switched to using RV antifreeze in the v1 mix, every tire I have used it in developed a huge bugger after a couple months. Could be coincidence, but do you all think the RV antifreeze is as bad as coolant when it comes to the additives that cause coagulation?


Actually, RV antifreeze - for potable water lines - has been suggested as mo' better (less additives). Got a brand name/label?


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

I'm doing equal parts slime, rv antifreeze, latex

It's my last bit of the batch I.made.months ago. Next batch ill try the new recipe. 

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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

So I just checked my.tires. my rear was dry so I added my sealant and its doing fine now. My front had a small booger about the size of a pistachio. It still had plenty of sealant so I just topped it off. Should I ever clean out my tire when I add sealant. Like toss the old stuff, wash my tire, redo tape, and add new sealant on a fresh clean tire/rim? 

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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have never redone the tape, but I generally take the tire off and clean and re-install every 6 months or so. Hopefully, the new recipe will go a year or longer.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

kikoraa said:


> So I just checked my.tires. my rear was dry so I added my sealant and its doing fine now. My front had a small booger about the size of a pistachio. It still had plenty of sealant so I just topped it off. Should I ever clean out my tire when I add sealant. Like toss the old stuff, wash my tire, redo tape, and add new sealant on a fresh clean tire/rim?
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


The only part I ever felt had to be cleaned up was the bead area - but on a topoff, I would usually only peal off the excess on both the tire and the rim on the side I took apart. If I'm doing a complete fill after a fail, I would take the tire completely off and clean both beads - and take the rim strip off and clean the rim, inspect the tape, etc. By fail I mean total air loss, both beads broken, put in the spare tube - dirt gets in doing this in the field, and you had to pull the rimstrip anyways.

For a "limp home while pumping occasionally", it's just a topoff.


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

Yea I was the only person in my park last night and I had to stop and pumpup a few times. I kept hearing little burts of air leak out so I had a bad feeling. After one horrible double fail I always bring 2 tubes with me haha. Anyways I had a quarter mile left and my rear peeled off the rim. I walked the last bit and check it today and it was dry. That's when I redid that one and topped off my front so hopefully I'm good to go for tomorrow evening. 

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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

wadester said:


> Actually, RV antifreeze - for potable water lines - has been suggested as mo' better (less additives). Got a brand name/label?


I bought it at Menards for like 5$. It is "Zecol" brand. Ha, It says on the label "superior corrosion inhibitors". Maybe I'll look for different brand for my next batch. What brands are folks having success with?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Makes me glad I've got Schraders in my Outlaws (or any removable core). If the tire is holding air shake it. If you hear fluid you should be good. A lot of fluid makes a different noise that a little does so if it doesn't sound like a good amount put in another 2 oz. through the stem. No peeling apart seals that don't need to be broken.

My tires seem to last a year or a little longer so around once a year I'm gonna have to take 'em off and clean the rim up anyways so I'm not worried about boogers. Nor weight since I'm running Outlaws with double ply DH tires...


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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

I thought y'all might want to hear about this. I am positively baffled myself.

*ULTRA LONG TERM REVIEW* of innertube latex patching.

November 2005, I treated a Dutch city bike, used daily.

Bike : Dutch ladies bike, 2-3 decades old at the time.
Rear inner tube: looked decades old, litterally ~40 small (more than craftfully applied) tiny hand-cut patches on it. Very, very dried out, porous almost. barely held air, besides its new (light snake bite) puncture and all those patches.
Tires: 28*1.375", years old, especially the front, which actually seemed an original. 
Situation : my girlfriend's bike had a rear puncture. We all know what PITA swapping a rear tube on a kickback brake city bike can be. So, I took my latex/slime slime mix to fix it.

I treated both innertube generously, ~150ml fluid each tube. Steel city bike, The Netherlands, so weight be darned.
Dunlop valves, and a Stans or similar needle head type bottle to feed it in.

Just this weekend, I hung out again with the ex-girlfriend, after 6 years of barely any contact.
Turns out, she's still using that bike, and it's not had a single flat, front or rear, after more than 6 years.

Now understand this. 
A bike like this is used everyday, mostly in urban situations (glass), and in low light (commuting).
On average, I'd say you're looking at 2 punctures per year, and swapping out a tire at least every 5 years of so.
This statistic, starting with a very near death inner tube, is turned into a 100% no-problem setup and realiable pressure holding for 6+ years.

I am now wondering, whether the large dose I applied managed to stay liquid over all those years. And, how the fact that especially the really bad rear tube plays into this. The liquid may have rejuvenated it new state, or even better? And, the thick condom-like film there surely is to sit inside the tube, does that now fend of punctures that are 99% sure to happen over such a time span?
the bike is in a town where I seldom go, used for train-to-work commuting.

I am not sure anymore what I mixed up, but it was likely 4 parts water, 1 latex mold builder, 1 slime. Possibly more water. No other additives. Summers go up to 35ºC at peaks, winters -10/-15ºC in dips.


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

Share your recipes please. I'm due to make a new batch after last week.

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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

kikoraa said:


> Share your recipes please. I'm due to make a new batch after last week.
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


There are plenty of posts with lots of recipes and results, you just need to read them instead of wanting us to post them all over again!


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

Is it possible for the sealant to separate in the tire? 

My blend:
1 part Mold Builder
1 part Automotive Slime
2 parts red RV antifreeze.

The reason I ask is that my back tire (Ikon EXO) was weeping green liquid the other day. The tire holds air really well but there are a few pinholes that continue to bubble after several rides and several weeks since the conversion.


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

slocaus said:


> There are plenty of posts with lots of recipes and results, you just need to read them instead of wanting us to post them all over again!


Fair enough :beer:

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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slocaus said:


> kikoraa said:
> 
> 
> > Share your recipes please. I'm due to make a new batch after last week.
> ...


I'm pretty sure he wants the "Super Duty 6 Year Guaranteed Not to Flat or Dry Up" recipe, not the regular one we all know and use.

Methinks it was just blind luck and that sealant certainly dried many years ago.


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## kikoraa (Jul 25, 2011)

I wonder about that too. I get little dark green water like leaks. 

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## Cloxxki (Jan 11, 2004)

big0mike said:


> I'm pretty sure he wants the "Super Duty 6 Year Guaranteed Not to Flat or Dry Up" recipe, not the regular one we all know and use.
> 
> Methinks it was just blind luck and that sealant certainly dried many years ago.


That recipe was provided. I do think dosage is a factor though. And, relative to tire volume.
Could be that it dried up. The solids of the sealent are still in there though, likely as a film or sorts, with or without buggers, to some degree aiding the seal of the tube be broken by protruding objects or rare rim bottoming.
Examining the setup would be educational, but would require an outperforming setup to be compromised. Even if one day a pucture occurs, after outer inspection of the tube, it could be attempted to given new life with a second dosage. Knowing how desperate the tube was when I examined it pre sealent, I do get the impression a large dose might "patch up" a long dead tube, at very limited effort and cost.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

kikoraa said:


> I wonder about that too. I get little dark green water like leaks.
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


So I'm not alone.

FWIW, the same mix is still mixed up properly in a sealed jar, both have set out on a porch through temperatures as low as 25 and as high as 65 over the last few weeks (GA weather).


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

GTscoob said:


> So I'm not alone.
> 
> FWIW, the same mix is still mixed up properly in a sealed jar, both have set out on a porch through temperatures as low as 25 and as high as 65 over the last few weeks (GA weather).


It is the Slime that weeps, likely the EG. That is why eurotrash666 recipe is the best advice so far to dump the Slime.

Here is a good EG vs PG comparo I found. Might be a consideration for those in cold climes, or kids / pets for toxicity.

Comparing Ethylene Glycol and Propylene Glycol


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## jten9 (Apr 8, 2010)

Oops, please delete.


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## Tcorwin (Sep 27, 2009)

Any opinions on "Polymer Crystal Gel" sold for use in cigar humidifiers etc. It seems to be very absorptive, and is designed to work with PG. It's cheap and easy to buy, and comes in crushed crystal form as opposed to ball form. I can't tell how it differs from silica gel, or if it would react strangely with the other brew ingredients. 

Also, I have found pure PG on ebay for about $10 for 8oz shipped, which when cut 50% would match with a 16oz tub of liquid latex. Seems easier than spending all day trying to find additive free RV antifreeze.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I soaked the silica gel spheres, but they didn't absorb any more liquid or get any softer - still fairly rigid, and too big for holes in my opinion.

The ideal crusher would be a roller mill - you could set the gap between the rollers for perfect sizing. There used to be a cheap homebrew grain roller mill, but I couldn't find it.

So - I tried my blender! Blending dry silica gel is not a good idea - it packs up quickly and very little blending occurs. But once wet, it works quickly - but may be a bit fine. 50/50 gel/liquid comes out just right - just a little clear liquid at the top once settled.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I did the food processor on mine. And I tried to get the unchopped balls out, but I got to thinking that even if there are just a few whole beads, they will clog the valve stem when I put them in with my Stans syringe. So I will be putting this batch in by unseating the bead. In the mean time, I will run the rest of the silica gel through a strainer. 

My first batch looks real good but mixing the xantham gum with the water was also a chore. I finally had to use the food processor on that too.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

I found an article on mixing xanthan gum in industrial applications. Mechanical mixing is the recommended method when no other additives are concerned... but interestingly enough, one standard practice is to mix xanthan gum into a suspension with propylene glycol and inject that into the mixing batch! 

I've got all of the ingredients together except for the PG (don't know where to get the pure stuff in the EU yet). I've just treated a worn set of thin-walled tires with solvent-thinned shoe goo. I'll have my own testing data to contribute soon...


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)




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## bikin_pat (Mar 7, 2012)

Thanks for the different brews, I will try a few.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

This just in! I have tried the new mixture in a set of tires and it seems to work really well. Of particular note is the fact that initially they weeped green from the pores for a little while just like they did before. Then, nothing. The same tires that used to have little green dots all over the sidewalls, no look like they have tubes in them. No white dots or dots of any kind. I can only assume that there was some green stuff on the pores and the new mixture pushed it out and sealed the pores.

I did not preseal the tires with rubber cement of anything else. I just dismounted the tires, cleaned them up and mounted them using windex and an air compressor. Then I squirted about 3.5 ounces of sealant in with a Stans syringe and squirted a little water to clean the valve body before inserting the stem. So far, my fear of the silica gel clogging the valve stems has not happened so either I have been lucky on 2 tires or the Stan's valve stems on these rims are large enough for the few uncrushed particles of silica gel to slip through.

Better living through chemistry!


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

My overall impression is that this seals as well as the previous mixture or maybe better but not quite as quickly as Stans. This is from the time it took to seal the bead seat. If faster sealing was desired (which I don't really see the need for faster sealing) you could probably up the ratio of latex slightly.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> My overall impression is that this seals as well as the previous mixture or maybe better but not quite as quickly as Stans. This is from the time it took to seal the bead seat. If faster sealing was desired (which I don't really see the need for faster sealing) you could probably up the ratio of latex slightly.


i would like to see the batch you made. will you be at the trail build this saturday?


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)

Other than the cost factor are there any compelling factors to ditch the slime? The slime formula is proven and the replacement is still a bit experimental for my comfort for my 1st tubeless setup. Cost isn't much of a factor vs the hassle of a failure too me.
My local Advance auto parts has the 24 oz slime for $10.09 and peak RV antifreeze for $4.95 The MSDS shows it is 50% PG with <.001% additives.
On the other hand I have several lbs of silica in desiccant bags I picked up surplus, xanthan gum in the cupboard and a bag of dryer lint from another project so the new formula would be easy for me. Hobby lobby is the closest store for the mold builder ,$10 after 40% coupon, and they have some fine turf that looks promising for chunks. It looks like ground rubber.

I'm going to do the Gorilla tape getto on a set of WTB laserdisks and Kenda small block 8s.

Interesting facts on Xanthan gum


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## boboxx (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm pretty sure that polymer crystal gel is found in common baby dipper, I will take one apart tonight to see how much is in there


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> My overall impression is that this seals as well as the previous mixture or maybe better but not quite as quickly as Stans. This is from the time it took to seal the bead seat. If faster sealing was desired (which I don't really see the need for faster sealing) you could probably up the ratio of latex slightly.


Can you post the reciepe/materials you used? I looked back a couple of pages and didn't see it.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

If it quits raining, I will be there and I will bring the batch.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

In the order I performed it.

16 oz Pg
16 oz RO water
Mix and save for later.

In a seperate container.
10 oz RO Water
.64 oz amonia
1.28 oz xantham gum
5 oz silica gel hydrated with RO water.
Mix thouroghly-required a food processor to break up the xantham gum and I used the food processor before adding the silica gel, but that probably doesn't matter.
also, I have a small scoop and I used that to measure the above ingredients (other than water) and it worked out to 1 scoop of amonia, 2 scoops of xantham gum and 12 scoops of hydrated silica gel.
(I think I might have accidentally used 3 scoops of xantham gum in my mixture)

16 oz latex
Blend in with the above mixture
After thoroughly blending add the first mixture or PG and RO water and mix well then shake like heck.

Makes 65 ounces.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Oh, if you notice the 12 scoops of Silica Gel would seem to add up to 7.68 ounces based on the other sizes. Without going into a complicated explanation of liquid measure vs volume measure, the scoop I used said "13cc" on it and I did rough approximations for how much I thought the recipe from eurotrash called for. Then I added a fudge factor on the silica gel to account for the water. Since this is not my field and these were rough calcs, these figures could be off so let's simplify:
13 cc of ammonia
26 cc of xantham gum or 39 if you don't pay attention to what you are doing.
156 cc of hydrated silica gel
all by volume.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

eurotrash666 said:


> I've got all of the ingredients together except for the PG (don't know where to get the pure stuff in the EU yet). I've just treated a worn set of thin-walled tires with solvent-thinned shoe goo. I'll have my own testing data to contribute soon...


Hey Eurotrash, no offense meant, just wanted to ask since you're going through so much work just to ditch the slime, why are you using conventional Shoe Goo? And can you get this in a tub anywhere? I've only ever seen it in the squeeze tube.

Ever tried Aquaseal? My neighbor is a kayaker and he uses Aquaseal and gorilla tape on his kayaking rigs almost as much as I use tubeless goo and gorilla tape on my rims.


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## boboxx (Nov 15, 2011)

boboxx said:


> I'm pretty sure that polymer crystal gel is found in common baby dipper, I will take one apart tonight to see how much is in there


FYI, I was able to get about 2.5-3g of polymer gel from a single Huggies diaper! as a bonus you can also get a small quantity of cotton fiber. The easiest way to extract it is simply to cut the diaper in 1/2 (back front) and to shake it on a piece of paper.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

yourdaguy, thanks man. What did you use for Pg and where did you get it?

I most intrigued by the fact that your first try of this new mix didn't weep through the sidewalls.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I googled or binged and found a gallon of pure PG. I don't remember where I got it I think is was a chemical supply company.


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## HAL 9000 (Apr 4, 2008)

Orange Seal Cycling | Tire Sealant | Lube | Cleaner


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I just went out to the polebarn and looked at the gallon jug. The label says The Chemistry Store.com 1133 Walter Price St. Cayce, SC 29033 website: Soap Making Supplies & Cosmetic Ingredients | The Chemistry Store.

That is where my PG came from.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I just ordered a gallon of pure PG for 34.95 + free shipping here...

Amazon.com: Propylene Glycol - Food Grade USP - 1 Gallon: Industrial & Scientific


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## westidesean (Feb 15, 2012)

I agree with the recent Stans change. I set up a friends wheels with his bottle of stans and it seemed to leak a LOT quicker and seal much slower than with my bottle of stans which was maybe a year old.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

GTscoob said:


> Hey Eurotrash, no offense meant, just wanted to ask since you're going through so much work just to ditch the slime, why are you using conventional Shoe Goo? And can you get this in a tub anywhere? I've only ever seen it in the squeeze tube.
> 
> Ever tried Aquaseal? My neighbor is a kayaker and he uses Aquaseal and gorilla tape on his kayaking rigs almost as much as I use tubeless goo and gorilla tape on my rims.


Shoe Goo is convenient. It is not silicone based, so it suits our application. You could also use rubber cement, but most rubber cements are contact adhesives. Imagine the frustration of brushing that on the inside of a folding tire carcass, where every time the inner wall touches another part it would stick together! I don't know of any other convenient substitutes.

I've used Aquaseal to repair or modify scuba gear and to patch gore-tex. I don't recall the chemistry, but I do recall the price- not cheap! It is fancy stuff.



boboxx said:


> FYI, I was able to get about 2.5-3g of polymer gel from a single Huggies diaper! as a bonus you can also get a small quantity of cotton fiber. The easiest way to extract it is simply to cut the diaper in 1/2 (back front) and to shake it on a piece of paper.


Good find! I don't know the formulation of "polymer gel", but all I really have to say about selecting the chunk material is that it 1.) does not ionize, and 2.) does not have terminal carbon-carbon double bonds that will react with our mixture. I think silica gel will form a good outer crust on a plug.



yourdaguy said:


> (snip major success story!)


Totally awesome. I was sure the xanthan gum would improve the product by making the solution more cohesive, but this level of performance with the pinhole weeping is excellent news!

And for whoever posted the link to that orange stuff- dude, it's $60/quart!!

Being in the EU presently, I am still witout PG and don't know what it is going to cost me. I've only been on a couple rides this month between work and winter, so finding some dropped a bit on my to do list. Yourdaguy, what is your cost per quart of sealant at this point? I'd like to poll you guys on cost, so we can compare it to the "competition" on a USD/quart basis:

Slime ~17 USD/quart
Stan's ~30 USD/quart
Orange ~60 USD/quart

I bet on average the open-source sealant is running $10/quart. Data, anyone?


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)

*Question restated..............................*



slocaus said:


> It is the Slime that weeps, likely the EG. That is why eurotrash666 recipe is the best advice so far to dump the Slime.


My question was ignored so I'll restate it Why ditch the slime? Cost? Toxicity? Weeping?
I have a quart of "All Tire" slime that claims to be non-toxic and so does the MSDS so they must have removed the EG
I have all the ingredients for both the classic WSS or the new formula but I'm leaning toward staying with the proven WSS with the slime unless there is a compelling reason not to that I'm missing.  Please advise.


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## boboxx (Nov 15, 2011)

I just found a 50G drum of 50% Dowtherm sr-1 ethylen glycol in one of the storage at work. The MSDS sheets lists this for the composition:

Ethylene glycol (107-21-1) > 95.0 %
Water (7732-18-5) < 3.0 %
Dipotassium hydrogen phosphate (7758-11-4) < 3.0 %


Anyone know if it would be ok to use?


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## boboxx (Nov 15, 2011)

eurotrash666 said:


> Good find! I don't know the formulation of "polymer gel", but all I really have to say about selecting the chunk material is that it 1.) does not ionize, and 2.) does not have terminal carbon-carbon double bonds that will react with our mixture. I think silica gel will form a good outer crust on a plug.


From what I could find it's sodium polyacrylate... not sure if it's any good


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

boboxx said:


> From what I could find it's sodium polyacrylate... not sure if it's any good


In that case, definitely no. Sodium polyacrylate is an ion-exchange resin. In basic solution, the carboxylic acid group (the anionic portion of the polymer) will likely react with the alcohols to form esters. It would be best to avoid this stuff.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

jaydee1445 said:


> My question was ignored so I'll restate it Why ditch the slime? Cost? Toxicity? Weeping?
> I have a quart of "All Tire" slime that claims to be non-toxic and so does the MSDS so they must have removed the EG
> I have all the ingredients for both the classic WSS or the new formula but I'm leaning toward staying with the proven WSS with the slime unless there is a compelling reason not to that I'm missing.  Please advise.


As mentioned in more detail earlier, there is nothing wrong with the WSS with Slime. It is proven to work very well. The purpose in removing Slime from the recipe is to make a truly open-source formula that does not rely on expensive patent/name-brand products, and to lower costs for the home-brewer. Bear in mind that the Mold Builder is simply one of many sources of butadiene, it just happens to be very cheap and pure. Additionally, the formulation I suggested was designed to be long-lasting. We have yet to see, but if you're like me and wear out tires every season, it may last the life of the tire... we hope!

So if you have Slime on hand, no sense in letting it go to waste, jaydee.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

boboxx said:


> I just found a 50G drum of 50% Dowtherm sr-1 ethylen glycol in one of the storage at work. The MSDS sheets lists this for the composition:
> 
> Ethylene glycol (107-21-1) > 95.0 %
> Water (7732-18-5) < 3.0 %
> ...


This is an anti-corrosive or similar. Reactive - causes goobers, probably. Go pure.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Cost	Ounces	Cost per ounce	Ounces used	Cost per batch
PG 34 128 0.27 16 4.25
Latex 24 32 0.75 16 12
Ammonia	3 128 0.02 0.19 0
Xantham gum	8 6 1.33 0.56 0.75
Silica Gel	20 40 0.5 2.25 1.13
Ro water is free to me 30 0
Total ounces and cost 65 18.13
Cost per ounce 0.278914
Cost for a 32 ounce bottle equivalent 8.93

Cut and pasted from a spreadsheet so not too pretty. Considering that Stans is generally over $20 for a 32 ounce bottle and that I think I like this better, this is quite an accomplishment eurotrash666.


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)

I picked up some fine turf grass used for model landscapes for chunklations when I was at the hobby shop. Looks promising, it mixed well in water in a shaker but it separated floated to the top when stopped shaking. It also was too large to pass the small orifice of a hair color bottle. I assume anything used for chunklations would have similar behavior.
The manufacturer claims it is dyed polyurethane foam and non-toxic. I don't know how it might react with the other ingredients.
link to manufacturer site


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

HAL 9000 said:


> Orange Seal Cycling | Tire Sealant | Lube | Cleaner
> 
> 
> > Orange Seal performs with success in mind. Orange Seal is the new "Gold Standard" in tubeless sealants by being light weight and utilizing nano technology to help seal the toughest of punctures.


We gotta figure out where to buy nanos now!



eurotrash666 said:


> Good find! I don't know the formulation of "polymer gel", but all I really have to say about selecting the chunk material is that it 1.) does not ionize, and 2.) does not have terminal carbon-carbon double bonds that will react with our mixture. I think silica gel will form a good outer crust on a plug.


I thought the silica gel was mostly for some other reason (something to do with keeping the elements all stable and not hardening or drying out) with the nice side effect of being a "chunkulator?" If it's just for chunks I'm still thinking those little rubber grassy thingies someone found at Michaels would be one of the better chunkulators. But, I'm not the chemist here...


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

big0mike said:


> We gotta figure out where to buy nanos now!
> 
> I thought the silica gel was mostly for some other reason (something to do with keeping the elements all stable and not hardening or drying out) with the nice side effect of being a "chunkulator?" If it's just for chunks I'm still thinking those little rubber grassy thingies someone found at Michaels would be one of the better chunkulators. But, I'm not the chemist here...


The silica gel was just an idea for a relatively inert chunkulator, with the benefit of holding moisture vis-a-vis water. It is the least important ingredient as far as I am concerned. Recall silica is what tire manufacturers add to their rubber to make tread more firm and wear-resistant. I think any substitute that is inert, of similar density (neutrally buoyant) in solution, is cheap, and has varied texture and size would do just as well. If the turf grass distributes well in the mixture, it is very promising. Stan used cornmeal at one point...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

So, based on the report of Jaydee above me and that the "grass" he purchased floats it would not be ideal since it IS buoyant. Bummer. That's the kinda stuff I was thinking of... I guess I need to get it outta my head that if it's sealing a rubber tire then you should use rubber


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

big0mike said:


> So, based on the report of Jaydee above me and that the "grass" he purchased floats it would not be ideal since it IS buoyant. Bummer. That's the kinda stuff I was thinking of... I guess I need to get it outta my head that if it's sealing a rubber tire then you should use rubber


On the contrary, jaydee tested in water- the stickiness of the sealant may hold the turf grass in suspension nicely. Also, the PG is a surfactant, so it will penetrate the small pores in the foam more readily than water. Only way to know is to test a scoop. It may indeed work. I think using a polymer chunk is a very good idea.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

True. A great many things that "float" will possibly be suspending by the extra thickness of the mixture...


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)

eurotrash666 said:


> On the contrary, jaydee tested in water- the stickiness of the sealant may hold the turf grass in suspension nicely. Also, the PG is a surfactant, so it will penetrate the small pores in the foam more readily than water. Only way to know is to test a scoop. It may indeed work. I think using a polymer chunk is a very good idea.


Looks like the next step is to mix up some anti freeze and Xantham Gum with the grass to see if it stays suspended in a thicker solution. Once the latex is added I bet the grass will stay in suspension just like the fibers in Slime.


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)

ET was correct equal parts RV AF and water thickened with Xanthan Gum holds the grass in suspension well. The fine turf has varying sizes of chunks and looks a lot like the fibers in slime.:thumbsup:
Could be a winner combined with the silica as long as the polyurethane foam doesn't have a negative reaction with the other ingredients.

Because this will be my 1st attempt going tubeless I'm still using the proven formula to remove the sealant as a variable so I can pinpoint the cause if I have a fail. Probably wouldn't hurt to ad a scoop of grass to the mix though.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The perfect replacement for silica gel would be ground up tires as long as the largest piece would pass through a valve stem and it didn't have any ground up metal in it.

The grass will work if it does not react with the other ingredients. How does it compare in cost to the silica gel? If the cost is even close, it would be a better alternative because reducing the size of the silica gel is such a pain.


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)

yourdaguy said:


> The grass will work if it does not react with the other ingredients. How does it compare in cost to the silica gel? If the cost is even close, it would be a better alternative because reducing the size of the silica gel is such a pain.


$4 for 18 cubic inches. The bag is 5"x5'x1" probably enough for 4 or 5 batches, a pinch was more than enough for 8 oz.
fine turf linky


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Definitely easier and cheaper and buoyancy is neutral enough. Now we need to find out about the reactivity. (Side note: my spell checker never heard of reactivity)


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Polyurethane is inert here, good to go.


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)

Well I screwed the pooch on my 1st batch of mix. Was using the 1 latex, 2 Slime, 2 PG AF formula. I poured 16oz latex in a small bucket then added 32 oz of slime mixing it well with a beater from an electric mixer chucked up in a drill. Once it was well blended I poured the PG into the Slime bottle and blended it in. 3 teaspoons of fine turf for chunks should have finished the mix but no....... I had a old man brain fart and thought I needed TWO parts PG so I added another quart of AF DOHHHH!!!!! :madman:

I used the thin mix in my freshly converted WTB Laserdiscs with Gorilla tape, Kenda smallblock 8s, and Caffe Latex presta valves with removable cores to facilitate adding sealant through the stem. Using a 8 oz hair color applicator bottle from the local beauty supply worked like a charm once I drilled out the tip to a 1/8" opening. The tip of the bottle fits the stem like a glove :thumbsup:
The thin mix sealed up the front with very little air bubbling and no sealant weeping.







. The rear had air leakage around the valve stem do to cutting too much tape from around the valve hole but it looks to have sealed also.
The remainder of the mix has some chunks settling on the bottom, they look like the chunks from the slime. I'll probably throw another pint of latex in to the remainder for good measure but the thin stuff is working.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have had bad results adding latex after a mix is made. It formed the largest buggers ever in less than a month in the tire.


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)

yourdaguy said:


> I have had bad results adding latex after a mix is made. It formed the largest buggers ever in less than a month in the tire.


Interesting, did you use a power mixer or just shake it up? The main reason for more latex is I want to use it in the dirt motos tubes.Thinking more latex might help there. Buggers might help balance out the Rim locks.:ihih:
I'm using airsoft BBs as balance in the street motos so no sealant there unless I go back to stick-on weights.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

jaydee1445 said:


> Interesting, did you use a power mixer or just shake it up? The main reason for more latex is I want to use it in the dirt motos tubes.Thinking more latex might help there. Buggers might help balance out the Rim locks.:ihih:
> I'm using airsoft BBs as balance in the street motos so no sealant there unless I go back to stick-on weights.


But that's the beauty of sealant - it also works as dynamic balancing media, just like any other material free to move inside the tire.


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)

wadester said:


> But that's the beauty of sealant - it also works as dynamic balancing media, just like any other material free to move inside the tire.


I really am getting old, my mind is missing the obvious points more and more.
Were did I leave my AARP card? Time to sell the house and move into a trailer in Sarasota.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have now converted 6 sets (12 tires) to the new mixture. One of them took as long as 5 days to quit weeping green which I have to assume was already impregnated into the pores of the tire. Also, this is a very large tire (Weirwolf) on a fat rim (Flow) and a front so it is my lowest pressure tire setup (21 psi) so it probably took longer to push the green stuff out. The 2nd worst was a 25 psi Saguaro which took 4 days.None of the 12 tires has any little spots any more. What an improvement! All are holding air as good as and probably better than ever.

I was thinking last night about what the next step is to take this to the next level. With this formula, the 3 things that are not leaving are latex, silica gel, and xantham gum. The 3 things that are likely to evaporate over time are RO water, PG, and ammonia. I am thinking that if we squirted about an ounce of a mixture of 95% RO water, 4% PG and 1% ammonia in through the valve stem about once a year, we might never have to dismount the tire until it is worn out.

What are the group thoughts about this idea and also my percentages? Eurotrash666, what do you think the evaporation rates would be for the various components? My thought process is that initially, the percentage of ammonia overall is less than 1%, but it probably evaporates the fastest so 1%. Water would be almost equal to PG, but evaporate way faster (in this case, I have assumed around 20 times faster). I figure we have a year to figure this out! I am thinking my mixture might need more ammonia since even though the initial amount is small, it has by far the highest vapor pressure.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

jaydee1445 no mixer. I just added some latex to some already mixed sealant and shook vigorously. I then installed it in 2 tires. Within a month both tires were weeping green around the bead. When I opened them up all the latex was in 1 large booger in each tire and there was a bunch of what looked like green water. My guess is that chemically, the boogers are like remember when you grew crystals in science class? Adding the sealant this way, it was not so much in solution, but in suspension and all the latex grew into latex crystals leaving the green clear liquid components.


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## Wildebeast (Apr 5, 2011)

So after 61 pages of threads what is the final consensus? What is the best brew? Is wades mix from page 1 pretty standard plus additional fillers? Are most people running only AF instead of water? Total tubeless newb but think stans is priced high and dries out too fast here in Utah.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

The new stuff by eurotrash is proving better, cheaper.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Start reading around page 57.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Post numbers work better, since it depends on how many posts per page your settings reflect. This is page 16 for me, for example.


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## BUSTELO (Feb 3, 2012)

max_cat said:


> After running tubeless three years, I think I have tried all the different sealant types. My unscientific conclusion, if the main goal is flat protection, stan's is the best. Unfortunately, it dries up and thus builds up in the tire. To get at this problem, I have heard all kind of homemade combinations of the different tubeless product to get at a best brew of flat protection plus longevity. The latest sounded interesting superjuice with glitter. The theory is that the glitter provide better sealing protection. This sounded like little bit of a stretch to me, but at least if it came spewing out on you during a race, you would be looking good! Anybody want to throw out their experience in coming up with the "ultimate" homemade sealant brew for the rest of us to try?


 Slime pro tubeless sealant, I **** you not, its the best I have tried, spendy but lasts about a year for me or until the tire wears out:thumbsup: please try it ? so many riders have not.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

yourdaguy said:


> jaydee1445 no mixer. I just added some latex to some already mixed sealant and shook vigorously. I then installed it in 2 tires. Within a month both tires were weeping green around the bead. When I opened them up all the latex was in 1 large booger in each tire and there was a bunch of what looked like green water. My guess is that chemically, the boogers are like remember when you grew crystals in science class? Adding the sealant this way, it was not so much in solution, but in suspension and all the latex grew into latex crystals leaving the green clear liquid components.


Interesting, I wonder if this is my issue. I'm pretty sure that I mixed everything up and then realized that I only put in half the amount of slime and latex on my first batch, then added both slowly to the mix. I did mix everything a few days ahead of time and didnt have any boogers in the jar before filling.

Tire still sounds like there's goop in there but should I pop the bead open?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Yes, pull the bead back enough to see well and look. The bead will be easy to reseat. I look once a month because otherwise I go dry occasionally and suffer for it. It's interesting to see what goes on in there...


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

bsieb said:


> ^Yes, pull the bead back enough to see well and look. The bead will be easy to reseat. I look once a month because otherwise I go dry occasionally and suffer for it. It's interesting to see what goes on in there...


Next question, will I need a compressor to re-seat the bead? I had to borrow a compressor from a friend to do the initial setup and am too busy to go grab it for another two weeks.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

yourdaguy said:


> ... The 3 things that are likely to evaporate over time are RO water, PG, and ammonia. I am thinking that if we squirted about an ounce of a mixture of 95% RO water, 4% PG and 1% ammonia in through the valve stem about once a year, we might never have to dismount the tire until it is worn out.
> 
> What are the group thoughts about this idea and also my percentages? Eurotrash666, what do you think the evaporation rates would be for the various components? My thought process is that initially, the percentage of ammonia overall is less than 1%, but it probably evaporates the fastest so 1%. Water would be almost equal to PG, but evaporate way faster (in this case, I have assumed around 20 times faster). I figure we have a year to figure this out! I am thinking my mixture might need more ammonia since even though the initial amount is small, it has by far the highest vapor pressure.


You're partly on the right track. I need to reiterate the complexity of this mixture. It is no longer a function of vapor pressure to decide what leaves first. We're dealing with at least four physical factors that affect the solution component loss rates that I have mentioned. First off, the ammonia (as ammonium) is what is keeping the latex from polymerizing by a mechanism called hyperconjugation. The ammonium ion fits into the space at the two tail ends of the terminal carbon-carbon double bonds in the butadiene (latex), preventing them from polymerizing. The ammonium ion's electrons become part of the resonance structure that affects the entire butadiene molecule- distributed across four carbons. This is significant! When the liquid latex is exposed to atmosphere, the ammonia will drive off against a concentration gradient that can be quantified by Henry's law, but it's more complicated then that- we've got hyperconjugation and thermodynamics to consider. Regardless, the ammonia flies away and any free radicals in the atmosphere that collide with the terminal C=C double bond kick off the polymerization chain reaction, leaving you with a clump of latex that plugs your hole. Key side note, the ammonium is your preservative- adding some to a stale mix that hasn't boogered yet will probably make it last longer. Back to physics. Vapor pressure of the individual components is not something you can go on, this is not a distillation scenario. We are working with a solution that works according to Raoult's law, where the vapor pressure of the solution is a summation of the individual vapor pressures of it's constituents weighted against their relative concentration. Think of it as mixing a bunch of different colors together, the result will be a proportional average of the quantities and qualities of the constituent colors (I just came up with that  ). Next, there are glycols in the mix- glycols are hydrated alkene gases. Water splits to form a diol when alkenes go into solution, so the glycol doesn't evaporate according to vapor pressure so much as according to the thermodynamics of the glycol dehydrating to the alkene, then it diffuses according to the vapor gradient. Further, diols interact with water by hydrogen bond interactions, where water forms spheres of solvation around the -H and -OH part, so thermodynamics comes into play again. Then, the ester-linked sugars (our xanthan gum) plays a part in preserving the mix by similar interactions. So not as simple as determining which ingredient has the lowest vapor pressure, and adding it back to the mix. Bottom line is that adding a little ammonia water should refresh the mix, but the procedure will need to be determined experimentally! :thumbsup:


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

GTscoob said:


> Next question, will I need a compressor to re-seat the bead? I had to borrow a compressor from a friend to do the initial setup and am too busy to go grab it for another two weeks.


No, it will re-seat easily with floor pump.*

*At least that has been my experience. Once the bead has conformed to the rim it will seat easily thereafter. There will be some sealant present that helps things slide in place, I just pop it back on without messing with any sealant clinging to the bead area.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

I have been wondering about open source licensing, and have been doing some research. I've searched the patents, and this is an original formulation. I would like to ensure that nobody can profit off of what has been developed in this community, and to be sure it stays that way. I would like to see this sealant be legally in the public domain, so that anyone is free to make and share this recipe. I'm no patent lawyer, but maybe one of y'all knows a thing or two about it? The GNU, copyleft, and fair use systems don't really apply outside of software and digital media, so I don't know how to protect this as a free idea that we all can share without being sniped at the patent office by some jerk who's lurked this thread and wants to force some sort of cease-and-desist muzzle on the project. Does anyone have any ideas to discuss?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^What would there be to gain? We can mix up whatever we want from commonly available ingredients afaik. We can talk about it too, afaik. Why wouldn't someone just use the recipe and sell the product?*

Not disagreeing... just naive probably. 

*Like Slime Pro did with WSS


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

If anyone applies for a patent after it is published here, their patent could be challenged because of "prior art". In other words, anybody that did bother to patent this mixture would face the probability they would never be able to defend the patent. Also, now that the formula is out, anyone could mix up as many batches as they want and the patent troll would have no way to find out. Also, let's say someone does have a patent and they get a search warrant and find a quart in your garage and sue you. As long as you are only caught with a quart and are not selling it they would be entitled to the value of what they sell a quart for. Hardly equal to the filing fees for court much less the attorney's fees.

As far as someone profiting from this, their profits would be limited to the profit from mixing and selling the mix since if they charge too much, anyone could go into business to compete and keep the price down since they would not have a patent on the formula. These are the reasons that Coke does not patent their formula, but keeps it a tightly held secret only known to a few people. 

Knowledge is the power. The fact that the knowledge is widely dispersed means that the power is widely dispersed.


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## boboxx (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm having a really hard time of finding PG without the corrosion additive... anything that doesn't list it is Ethanol...

How bad is it to use PG with corrosion additive?


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Start from


eurotrash666 said:


> this post


and your question will be answered in great detail!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

boboxx said:


> I'm having a really hard time of finding PG without the corrosion additive... anything that doesn't list it is Ethanol...
> 
> How bad is it to use PG with corrosion additive?


Local on the shelf is difficult. Gotta go 'net:

From Amazon, with free shipping:
1qt/$15: Amazon.com: Propylene Glycol - Food Grade USP - 1 Quart (32 Oz.): Everything Else

1 gallon/$45 shipped.


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## boboxx (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm sure it will be hard to ship to Canada but will look


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Hmm. Yeah, free shipping is to USA only, so may be a better deal elsewheres. I search google for 

Propylene glycol sale

I added Canada and got some hits


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I believe I posted a link about a week ago.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

After reviewing patents, I determined Polyvinyl Alcohol (PVA) is indeed the slimy ingredient in Slime. I had mentioned interest in PVA many posts ago for this application. It would be a substitute for Xanthan Gum. It costs more, but can be found cheap here. I don't see a benefit one way or the other. PVA will coagulate with high charge density anions in solution (borate, probably chloride, etc). It dries hard, since it is a water-soluble glue when in a deionized solution. Food for thought. Well, glue for thought, anyway.


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## boboxx (Nov 15, 2011)

Is tis the same?

Elmer's Clear Glue For School Craft Projects | School Glue


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## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

In the UK you can get PVA in 5ltr tubs at DIY stores for not much money at all, always got a load in the garage. How much would you use in the mix, would it be the same quantities as the xanthan gum?


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Elmer's clear is mostly PVA. I think 20% is a good start point if you want to experiment a little, then dilute with DI water to consistency. I really can't predict the difference in performance over xanthan gum, but the idea definitely belongs in this thread.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> After reviewing patents, I determined Polyvinyl Alcohol (PVA) is indeed the slimy ingredient in Slime.


When you say the "slimy" are you referring to the main ingredient that does it's job? My first read through I thought you were talking about a slimy textured ingredient, something of a delivery vessel...



eurotrash666 said:


> I had mentioned interest in PVA many posts ago for this application. It would be a substitute for Xanthan Gum. It costs more, but can be found cheap here.


I thought the Xanthan Gum was simply a THICKENER for the mixture, not an actual active ingredient?

The plus side would be we can make our Home Brew many different colors! :thumbsup:

My big question would be what else is in the glue? The description just says "Contains non-toxic polyvinyl alcohol, no coloring additives or acetic odor." and I'd be curious to see if Michael's might have that here (same place many of us get the latex) but I wouldn't want to get something that is not ideal. And not being a chemist I would have no idea what any other ingredients would do.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

It may or may not have polyvinyl acetate, which is slightly more reactive with it's -COOH group instead of PVA -OH, but that is probably no big deal. The PVA would be texture/thickener. Active ingredient is still the latex.


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## boboxx (Nov 15, 2011)

I guess Shoppers has it (for teh canadians looking at this thread):
Medisca
Propylene Glycol, USP
500 ml
USP number on the bottle: 6 25075 05108 7

~7$

Also available here for US:
Propylene Glycol


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> It may or may not have polyvinyl acetate, which is slightly more reactive with it's -COOH group instead of PVA -OH, but that is probably no big deal. The PVA would be texture/thickener. Active ingredient is still the latex.


I know I'm wondering about semantics here but why do you consider the latex the "active" ingredient but not the glue? Again, being chemically-challenged here, it seems to me that a glue in the mix must certainly be a main or "active" ingredient?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The latex is what firms up almost instantly when you have a leak. The explanation from a business major is that when the latex which is infused with ammonia goes from the high pressure of the tire to the atmospheric pressure outside the tire, the ammonia leaves very quickly and the latex turns to a rubbery solid that blocks the hole. The ingredients like lint, Silica Gel, and rubber chunks are used to add solids so that the latex can plug the hole faster and span a smaller area. The water and PG are serving as dilution and carriers so to speak and the xantham gum and polyvinyl alcohol are used as thickeners and to further retard evaporation. The fact that PVA is glue and that xantham gum is basically gum is why they serve as thickeners and to further "gum up the works" when a leak occurs. So the latex is the main active ingredient since as you are probably aware the drying time on Elmers Glue (PVA) is very long like half an hour and all your air would be gone before your tire sealed.


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)

Sounds like the ammonia is the "catalyst" for the quick hardening of the latex. So it does double duty, prolonging self life AND hardening in a leak.
IIRC it has been said before to add a spoon or three to the mix to prolong the self life as the ammonia in the mold maker was not enough. How much is enough/ too much?


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Just a little tablespoon per batch. Too much ammonia is liable to corrode anything available given enough time. Ammonia is very reactive. We just want to saturate the latex and have a little excess to keep the solution preserved. 

PVA or PVAc is not being used as glue. It would never stick to anything with PG in the mix. It's a thickener, so a layer of sealant coats the tire when in use. Makes a watery mix more clingy, and is a substitute for xanthan gum for those who may have one but not the other handy when mixing a batch at home.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Also, xantham gum is hard to dissolve and PVAc is already fluid and easier to mix.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Andy13 said:


> I am having trouble sealing sidewalls on a crossmark eXC. It doesn't have the EXO sidewall protection. I am getting alot of weeping using the latest WSS w/ marine antifreeze, slime, water mix. I see mention of applying diluted shoe goo to the interior sidewalls in situations like this. Is that what is recommended when using this WSS version?


Looks like you forgot (or maybe just forgot to list) the key ingredient - latex?


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

I am having trouble sealing sidewalls on a crossmark eXC. It doesn't have the EXO sidewall protection. I am getting alot of weeping using the latest WSS w/ marine antifreeze, slime, water mix. I see mention of applying diluted shoe goo to the interior sidewalls in situations like this. Is that what is recommended when using this WSS version?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I'm waiting on latex in the mail, been wondering if y'all are mixing in a blender? Seems the logical way to go, it's recommended to mix xanthan gum that way and it seems to bust up the silica gel pretty well. I propose the mix be called the Latex Daiquiri version. 

Is this the current mix?

Water 30 oz
Propylene Glycol 16 oz
Latex 16 oz
Ammonia 1 tsp 
Xantham gum 0.56 oz (2 Tbs)
Silica gel 2.25 oz (1/2 cup)
Dryer lint golf ball size piece


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

bsieb. This is my formula except I ended up using a scoop that said 13 cc on it and I did 1 scoop of ammonia and 2 scoops of xantham gum (I accidentally did 3 I think) and 12 scoops of wetted silica gel. I didn't use dryer lint and with that much silica gel, it seems to have plenty of particles. All your other measurements are exactly what I did.

Also, mix 16 oz of PG and 16 oz of RO water and set it aside. Mix the 10 oz water (the other 4 ounces of water is already in the Silica Gel), the scoop of amonia, the 2-3 scoops of xantham gum in a blender or food processor (that was the only way I got the xantham gum to disperse). Then blend in the 12 scoops of wetted silica gel and finally, mix the 16 oz of latex gently in. When all this is happy to know each other then add the original mixture of PG and water and mix. You are done.


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

Flannel sheets make lots of good dryer lint.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

During my patent search, I found cotton fiber was the standard filler material. Some specified particular size distributions or end fraying, and some were blended with poly fibers. One of the more interesting patents was for a chunkulator that was specifically triangular and sharp-edged varied-size plastic fines that were intended to bite into the rubber tire around the hole, lodging into place. The remaining gaps were to be plugged with cotton fiber. These formulas were mainly glycol based, with some water and sometimes PVA to thicken. These did not include any latex or polymerizing substances, so sounds like old-school tractor tire sealants. We're working on a little more high-performance stuff that must seal quickly and not rely on a huge amount of slosh in the tire, but there's a little insight on chunkulation for older style sealants.


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

To use Shoe Goo on the inside of a very porous tire, do you thin it first or not? Out of the tube Shoe Goo seams really thick...


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Yes, thin heavily with toluene. It works very well.


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

*math*

EDIT> Nevermind, I'll just get the pure PG from Amazon.

I have some RV/Boat antifreeze that is *28% propylene glycol*.
Is 28% enough?

If so, using this recipe:

Latex 16 oz
Ammonia 1 tsp
Xantham gum 0.56 oz (2 Tbs)
Silica gel 2.25 oz (1/2 cup)
Dryer lint golf ball size piece

... how much of the 28% PG antifreeze should I use?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

This new formula is working so well without the shoe goo that I don't know if it is worth the trouble. Also, it sounds like we can get rid of the Silica Gel in favor of dryer lint in future mixes. This will lower the cost and simplify since grinding/chopping the Silica Gel was a pain in the A**.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Man, I wish I could get this dryer lint thing? I just can't see a ball of goo doing anything...

How big a wad of lint are you using?


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

yourdaguy said:


> First you want to wet the dryer lint with RO water and stir it so that you have a bunch of loose threads. The way it works is that as the latex starts to firm up, it forms a matrix to help build the plug.


RO water? Is distilled just as good? same as?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

First you want to wet the dryer lint with RO water and stir it so that you have a bunch of loose threads. The way it works is that as the latex starts to firm up, it forms a matrix to help build the plug.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

RO Water is reverse osmosis water and is basically the same thing as distilled water. instead of evaporating (distilling) RO water is run through a series of smaller and smaller filters until there is almost nothing coming out but pure H2O. Theoretically, distilled should be no PPM of solids, but in reality, what you buy is generally not that good. I have an RO system and my dissolved solids ppm is 2 so it is basically distilled quality. RO water quality vaires quite a bit. Some systems end up over 25 PPM dissolved solids.


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

For chunks, how about the shavings of an eraser stick? Quick work in a pencil sharpener.

These things:


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## james-o (Nov 8, 2010)

*Tyre warping...*

I'm asking here as there's more sealant experts here than anywhere else -

Has anyone noticed tubeless tyre warping and is it related to sealent mix?
I use 2 parts mold-builder latex and 1 part water in UST or TLR tyres and a while ago noticed a maxxis UST was warped - I assumed from being left on ab ike and flat for some time. I had a slow flat in a 2bliss tyre so last night I let the air out, poured in some mix and since it felt soft this am, added a bit more mix (about 3/4 of an aerosol can cap in total) and inflated. Seems like my tyre's got a wobble and it's not due to seating, like the Maxxis it looks like a permanent warp. Tried re-fitting etc, warp's the same. all a bit sudden since it was running pretty straight the other day.

Any comments? I wondered if it's the ammonia but plenty of sealants use it. Duff tyres? Thanks.


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

Thanks a ton for the shoo goo suggestion. I am not using the 'latest' method. I use the WSS w/ RV, slime and latex mold builder but was trying to seal a very porous tire. Mixing Shoo Goo w/ toluene, both from Ace Hardware, worked awesome! Thinned the goo just enough to paint on w/ a brush. Mounted the tire inside out w/ a tube on a spare wheel and put it on the trueing stand and painted it on. Thanks again.


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## james-o (Nov 8, 2010)

james-o said:


> I'm asking here as there's more sealant experts here than anywhere else -
> 
> Has anyone noticed tubeless tyre warping and is it related to sealent mix?
> I use 2 parts mold-builder latex and 1 part water in UST or TLR tyres and a while ago noticed a maxxis UST was warped - I assumed from being left on ab ike and flat for some time. I had a slow flat in a 2bliss tyre so last night I let the air out, poured in some mix and since it felt soft this am, added a bit more mix (about 3/4 of an aerosol can cap in total) and inflated. Seems like my tyre's got a wobble and it's not due to seating, like the Maxxis it looks like a permanent warp. Tried re-fitting etc, warp's the same. all a bit sudden since it was running pretty straight the other day.
> ...


I may have found the reason for the warp - the bead (kevlar or whatever strands are used in a Spesh 2bliss tyre) are loose inside the casing. I took the tyre off to check the seating, clean it and dry it. As I worked a rag round the edge I noticed it bunching up and the casing moving against the bead cords - so the sidewalls move out of line and it causes a warp. Odd. I'll take it back.

My q on ammonia or other ingredients stands though if anyone knows for sure - I checked a new tyre of the same model and the bead's solid so I wonder if the brew and warp is linked.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

james-o You are using almost pure mold builder in your mix and it is possible that without the other ingredients to "buffer" the ammonia that the mold builder is "oxidizing" (not enough of a chemist to know if this is oxidation or the other reaction) the rubber in your tire.


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## james-o (Nov 8, 2010)

Ok - more water needed perhaps?

Edit to add- What I'm struggling to find is any confirmation that ammonia in mold-builder latex damages tires. I've used it for 4-5 years w/o any problems with casings. What I am interested in is how this tire bead loosened to cause a wonky, wobbly tyre when seated and apart from a faulty tyre, the sealant was the only thing I could think of, only as I remembered some speculation about ammonia in tyres. It may be one of those MTB urban legends or there may be some truth to it, I'm not qualified to say and can't find a credible answer.
I just took the front tyre off, bought as a pair, same time on the bike, same sealant - the bead's fine. Duff tyre I reckon.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

If the tire is made to spec, e.g. fully vulcanized, cured, quality-assured, then there should not be any reason that ammonia would hurt the rubber. Think about it, your washer fluid has ammonia, and your windshield wipers are rubber... To elaborate, polymerized rubber shouldn't have many structural flaws or weaknesses on the molecular level, ideally. Rubber will react with ozone, which is a radical. Ozone is what "kicks off" the polymerization reaction in our butadiene sealant when it oozes from a puncture. Ozone is also the culprit for old rubber tires and tubes cracking like they do.

Ammonia reacting with stuff in the tire is, like I've said before, a game of thermodynamics. I am not strong enough in p-chem to figure out how to calculate the change in Gibbs free energy for an ammonium ion breaking hyperconjugation with butadiene (where double-bond resonance is carried across all four carbons and due to the interaction of the ammonium ions on both ends of the terminal C=C double bonds). I would need that number to compare to half-cell reactions of, say, ammonium to ammonia, then ammonia taking an electron off of aluminum in the rim, or whatever. That part is easy. The way the ammonium stabilizes the latex is not. I really couldn't predict what reaction would be favored, but it could probably be tested by taking a few mL of liquid latex, placing a shaving of raw aluminum in it, then sealing it airtight... if a booger forms overnight, then there's your answer. As far as ammonia hurting your tires, probably not... Glycol shouldn't either... you know what your radiator hoses are made of.

Andy13, glad the Shoe Goo worked for you. I did a set of porous tires several weeks ago, and they are still at 35 psi... Normally I need to top off my air weekly with this tire (I run Nobby Nics on all my bikes). I'll be doing all my new tires from now on with Shoe Goo as standard procedure. Not all tubeless ready tires are created equal, batch to batch or brand to brand. Cheap insurance for trouble-free riding.

So we go, marching inexorably toward tublessism... To the people!


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## james-o (Nov 8, 2010)

Thanks - that's answered it and apologies if I've missed anything like that before.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> First you want to wet the dryer lint with RO water and stir it so that you have a bunch of loose threads. The way it works is that as the latex starts to firm up, it forms a matrix to help build the plug.


Guess I'll have to try it 'cause I find it hard to believe that wet dryer lint has enough elasticity or strength to do anything, let alone be solid enough to plug a hole.


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

I just ground up a fiberglass rod in a pencil sharpener. (the flag pole from my old bike trailer)
Visually it looks perfect for some "matrix-building-chunks" 
Everything from fine powder to little shards.


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)

I added another pint of latex to thin mix with too much PG. I mixed it by pouring the latex in a bucket and slowly added a quart of mix while blending with a power drill and then added the rest of the mix. It mixed fine mixed fine, no clumping.
I had to redo my rear rim due to a bad tape job and even the the thin mix sealed the bead like glue; it took quite some effort to break the bead. 
The fine turff is working great as chunklator.:thumbsup: I run 50 lbs in the small block eights on pavement and as I was getting up the pressure a small puncture blew out in the center of the tread for a second then sealed right up.


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## james-o (Nov 8, 2010)

"I just ground up a fiberglass rod in a pencil sharpener. " - Be careful when scraping the dried mix out in the future! : ) Used to 'help' repair boats with fibregalss with my Dad when I was younger. Fibrelass shards can be nasty.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

client_9 said:


> I just ground up a fiberglass rod in a pencil sharpener. (the flag pole from my old bike trailer)
> Visually it looks perfect for some "matrix-building-chunks"
> Everything from fine powder to little shards.





james-o said:


> "I just ground up a fiberglass rod in a pencil sharpener. " - Be careful when scraping the dried mix out in the future! : ) Used to 'help' repair boats with fibregalss with my Dad when I was younger. Fibrelass shards can be nasty.


I found no less than five patents for tire sealant composition using exactly that- glass fibers and ground glass composite. Instead of cutting and pasting forever, just google.com/patents search for "tire sealant composition" or "tire sealant fiber" or "tire sealant glycol" and read until your eyes fall out. By reviewing the best of these patents, we are currently right on track, and it is a matter of fine-tuning the chunkulators at this point. One patent claims silica gel (as sodium silicate) for a plugging material... One uses dextrose as a thickener, which is similar in many ways to xanthan gum, but I am willing to bet xanthan gum is more stable against biodegredation. One patent calls for molasses... I'm not gonna go there. Anyway, for those who still want info, peruse the patents.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Got my gallon of pure PG today. Is it supposed to be clear? Label says "Propylene Glycol U.S.P." and "100% Propylene Glycol" on the ingredients.

Modelers fine turf grass and latex on the way. Just need to pick up some ammonia and xantham gum. I'm not going to mess with the silica gel. Grass and lint for chunkulation.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Pure PG is clear and has a higher viscosity than water.


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## james-o (Nov 8, 2010)

Eurotrash + Client_9, my error then, fibreglass seemed like an odd thing to mix in but I'm no expert!

I've been looking for propylene glycol screen wash locally and can only find it with ethylene glycol as an ingredient. Is there a key difference for sealant mixes? All I found online was that E-G is more toxic and varies in viscosity at normal temperatures, also that some tyre sealant patents (thanks eurotrash..) include E-G so I guess it's substitutable?.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

It's been mentioned a little already but wouldn't the sandings of an old tire be idea?l, I've got tons of old tires=free.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

elwoodturner said:


> It's been mentioned a little already but wouldn't the sandings of an old tire be idea?l, I've got tons of old tires=free.


I'm with you on this...

So, back to the dryer lint. Any ideas on the composition of the lint as being good or bad? I've got a big Great Dane and the b|tch leaves hair everywhere. I could throw her blankets in the dryer once a week and provide everyone on the board with lint. But, any ideas if dog hair would be better, worse, or no different that "regular" lint. I'm thinking possibly better since the hair is substantially more stiff than cloth lint would be.

Dunno, but I'm nearing the time that I need to make another batch so it's time to start getting supplies. Gonna see if they have any of that PG at any local stores here in Phoenix. Also scored a bag of silica gel from a big piece of equipment we got shipped at work. Not sure what I'm gonna use yet, maybe both.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I believe eurotrash666 said that "organic" things should work and that Stan's uses corn meal. Basically, you want to stay away from things that have metals in them because we are trying to prevent the forming of metal salts. Dog hair should work just fine I would think as long as ammonia would not dissolve it. You could put some in a tire and see if it was still whole in 6 months.

*I know there are lots of posts to wade through (no pun intended Wade), but a careful reading starting at eurotrash666's first post #1356 would answer many questions.*


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

You guys have not only learned, but demonstrated understanding of the concepts by making valid conclusions. Excellent! :thumbsup:

I came up with the dryer lint suggestion because the original (pre-Y2K) Slime was full of cotton fibers. The patents explain a number of schemes for using fiber, and detailed descriptions of composition, size, conditions, blah, blah... (it's really patent legalese for blah blah) so I figured dryer lint was a good variation of size, shape, and composition of fibers. I have not tested it. I can assume that in plain water, dryer lint would just make a wet clump similar to what you pull out of a clogged drain... yuk. In PG, however, the fibers should separate and mix in well. It may be necessary to "card" (as in preparing wool for spinning) the lint, or maybe snip the lint sheet (from the dryer screen) into strips about 1/2" wide beforehand. I think the same would have to be done with cotton balls, cut them and comb them. Chemically, cotton is more controllable, but physically lint is a better variation to mimic existing fiber sealants. I don't see any reason to argue against a large portion of hair in the lint, as I've gotten older I've seen it effectively plug my tub drain.  

Anybody experimenting with fibers?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

eurotrash666 said:


> Only learned you guys have not, but of the concepts by making valid conclusions demonstrated understanding. Excellent! Hmmmmmm.


Fixt.


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## Elacrosse7 (May 10, 2011)

I made a brew with the latex mold builder, slime, antifreeze, silica water beads, and two sizes of glitter. No issues yet, but I was wondering if it would work like Stan's in the "Path of Death" puncture video. I have been tempted to try it just to see, but I'm not sure I want to ruin a good tire. Has anyone else tested the mixture?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Read back in the thread, glitter causes more problems than it solves.


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## Elacrosse7 (May 10, 2011)

I put this mixture together a few months ago and just started reading up Om the advancements in home brew technology. I will try new brew next time.


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## jonw9 (Jun 29, 2009)

I was at Hobby Lobby tonight buying my mold builder for my first batch of homebrew. I am going to use the RV antifreeze because I have a bunch left over from the boat.

As I was walking down the aisle, I saw a sale on wax crystals. What is the opinion on this? They are varied in size, the would float int he solution. I don't know it that is good or bad. I don't see it getting hot enough (ambient) for the wax to melt.

Deprecated Browser Error

Any thoughts from those versed in the art of DIY tubeless brewing.

I was thinking on using something like:
1 pt. Mold Builder
2 pt. RV AF
1 ball lint,, in RO
X wax crystals (2 Tbsp.?)

Is this a usable mixture? Eliminating the Slime, maybe I need to add another part of AF.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Mixed up a batch of Eurotrash's recipe sunday night. Being lazy, I started with yourdaguy's recipe thinking I would be safe since he had already shown good results. Well, it didn't work. 1.3oz of xantham per 10oz of water in the blender turned into a thick ball of gel. So, I went back to Euro's original recommendations and did my own math with good results using the maximum amount of xantham gum.

Part 1:
16 oz water
2 tsp xantham gum
1 oz ammonia

Part 2:
16 oz latex mold builder

Part 3:
16 oz water
16 oz pure PG

Chunks - 2 oz modelers fine turf grass

Mix part 1 in blender on low speed. Combine part 1 and part 2 in larger container shaking well. Add part 3 and shake well. Add chunks, shake well.

I always separate my batch into individual pint jars. I think this extends the shelf life as I have had it thinken up in a 1 gal container in the past.

The viscosity seems to be similar to the WSS v1 I have been using, but I'm currently out and it has been too long since I mixed the last batch. I was a little nervous about how thick part 1 was by itself, because it was almost as thick as pudding. I just realized that I doubled part3, which should have been 16oz total, not 16 oz of each. Knowing this, the xantham gum could probably be further reduced. Surprisingly, only 2oz (volume) of chunks looks pretty good in the mix. I will post some pics later. How much chunks is too much??

Oh, I tried to get dryer lint to disperse in water in the blender and had no luck. I took a golf ball size and chopped it up with scissors into 10oz of water. Looking back, I should have tried it in PG instead of water. I'll let someone else pioneer that task.

Eurotrash, what are your thoughts?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I plan to mix in order: PG, xanthan gum, water, ammonia, latex, chunks/fibers i.e. thin to thick and I think I recall eurotrash mentioning mixing the xanthan gum in PG was good, like a roux.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

bsieb said:


> think I recall eurotrash mentioning mixing the xanthan gum in PG was good, like a roux.


Yes, a roux is a good analogy. I read in some industrial food processing documentation about injecting xanthan gum/PG "roux" into a mixer as a way to get the xanthan gum to distribute quickly and evenly, versus adding bulk powder to a watery solution.


ktm520 said:


> Mixed up a batch of Eurotrash's recipe sunday night. Being lazy, I started with yourdaguy's recipe thinking I would be safe since he had already shown good results. Well, it didn't work. 1.3oz of xantham per 10oz of water in the blender turned into a thick ball of gel. So, I went back to Euro's original recommendations and did my own math with good results using the maximum amount of xantham gum.
> 
> Part 1:
> 16 oz water
> ...


Separating a batch into jars for storage is a good idea. As far as water content, I think a higher proportion of water will aid solubility and homogeneity, as a certain balance of water is required for solvation, so no harm done there. The experimental question is how much latex is enough to form a quick and durable seal. Please report your results when you do puncture.



jonw9 said:


> I was at Hobby Lobby tonight buying my mold builder for my first batch of homebrew. I am going to use the RV antifreeze because I have a bunch left over from the boat.
> 
> As I was walking down the aisle, I saw a sale on wax crystals. What is the opinion on this? They are varied in size, the would float int he solution. I don't know it that is good or bad. I don't see it getting hot enough (ambient) for the wax to melt.
> 
> ...


I don't think the wax will work. Wax is hydrophobic, it repels water- and will also repel all the other ingredients, latex included because I imagine the hyperconjugated butadiene-ammonium molecule will have a charge distribution along it's length that resembles a water molecule, where the ends are more positive and the center is more negative. We probably would do better with micro-textured chunks that will allow an obtuse gas interface angle, more surface in contact with our mixture components to bond to when forming a plug. Compared to wax, even the glass fiber is rather neutral in this respect. Spongy material with pores and cavities that is chemically inert may be the ticket to fast, effective sealing- the turf grass guys may have really nailed it.



Elacrosse7 said:


> No issues yet, but I was wondering if it would work like Stan's in the "Path of Death" puncture video. I have been tempted to try it just to see, but I'm not sure I want to ruin a good tire. Has anyone else tested the mixture?


For some reason, the "Path of Death" video as a demonstration reminds me of the win-a-prize games at the carnival... but I think we stand a good chance of success, all hinging on chunkulator material at this point. Careful not to gouge your rims on a nail. The old demo with the driver drill and screws would probably work with just plain PG to wet the tire rubber. Time will tell, but I am confident the current mix will out-perform anything you buy off-the-shelf. Regardless of the level of performance, it still beats tubes!

Again, I just wanted to contribute some chemistry expertise to this community project. Ensuring the components are compatible, maximizing efficiency, and extending operational life are the factors that my inputs were meant to address. The real-world performance is going to depend on experimentation with component ratios and chunkulators to proceed further. There is enough information here to make a good sealant, but reports from everyone experimenting is what is going to make this alternative superior. Not much sense in overpaying for a bottle of commercial goo that had less R&D than we've already got in an open-source solution.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Man, there are so many differing recipes now I'm getting dizzy trying to figure out and remember the numbers...

I'm getting ready to make another batch myself. I'm waiting for the PVA to show up and I'll need to pick up some ammonia. Going off ktm's numbers (and past recipes) I should try:

16ox water
16ox PG
1oz ammonia
16oz latex
+/- 2oz chunks
add PVA to desired thickness

I gathered from past posts that the PVA is just for consistency so I'm tempted to add it last so I don't put too much in and kill a whole batch. With past batches the water and antifreeze seemed to be the consistency control.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

PVA is going to have great cohesive/adhesive properties inside the tire, whereas xanthan gum is a good trade off for low cost per batch. I expect the PVA version to be the longest-lasting. PVA will coalesce around charged particles, anions if I recall, so before committing mix a spoonful of PVA and a spoonful of water with a few drops of ammonia to make sure the PVA doesn't flocculate with the free ammonium ion. It should be fine, ammonium has a relatively low charge density (infinitesimal compared to borate, which PVA will floc with). Please do this simple test before mixing the entire batch.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Flocculation, in the field of chemistry, is a process wherein colloids come out of suspension in the form of floc or flakes by the addition of a clarifying agent. The action differs from precipitation in that, prior to flocculation, colloids are merely suspended in a liquid and not actually dissolved in a solution. In the flocculated system, there is no formation of a cake, since all the flocs are in the suspension.

OK, I'm not positive I understand that definition but I believe the two solutions should MIX well and no ingredient should be suspended in the mix like an oil/water mix would do. Correct?

One question, though. If the ammonia is going to mix well with everything else and the PVA mixes well with everything else how big of a deal would it be IF the PVA and ammonia did NOT mix well?


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

eurotrash666 said:


> PVA is going to have great cohesive/adhesive properties inside the tire, whereas xanthan gum is a good trade off for low cost per batch. I expect the PVA version to be the longest-lasting.


I don't know about xantham being cheap, in the states anyway. I paid 15$ for a 1/2lb bag at the grocery. It will proably last me longer than I live though, as a 64oz batch only requires 2tsp. Guess I should have shopped around, or bought online.

What are suggestions for a common source of PVA? Is it as simple as getting any white PVA glue? I'm considering adding some PVA to one of my pint jars.

I mounted up an old Schwalbe Racing Ralph EVO (non tlr, paper sidewalls) that had some old sealant residue left in it. Strangest thing, there were ~6 pin holes in the sidewall that were releasing a strong jet of air. The usual shake method would not seal these holes, but bouncing the wheel on the floor finally did the trick.

I also mounted a brand new Renegade Control. When shaking, I noticed that I could hear the sealant sloshing even after a full rotation. The Racing Ralph did not do this. Past experience, it will stop sloshing halfway around the tire and then I let is set of awhile to pool. I then remembered Euro's comment to clean the iml of new tires, so I guess the mold release was keeping the sealant from "wetting" the inner surface of the tire. Hopefully this doesn't caues any issues down the road. I've never cleaned new tires before.

The more I think about it, fibers are going to be key. Look at how well the slime based mix has worked and fibers are the main chunkulator. Going to do some more experiementing with mixing lint fibers in RV antifreeze. If I can get it to work, I'll try adding lint to one of my pints.

My problem is that I rarely get punctures/tears/thorns in my tires (knock on wood). In five years riding tubeless, I've only got 2 punctures and both were too big for any sealant to plug. So, I'm primarily hoping for no weeping sidewalls and less boogers.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

big0mike said:


> Flocculation, in the field of chemistry, is a process wherein colloids come out of suspension in the form of floc or flakes by the addition of a clarifying agent. The action differs from precipitation in that, prior to flocculation, colloids are merely suspended in a liquid and not actually dissolved in a solution. In the flocculated system, there is no formation of a cake, since all the flocs are in the suspension.
> 
> OK, I'm not positive I understand that definition but I believe the two solutions should MIX well and no ingredient should be suspended in the mix like an oil/water mix would do. Correct?
> 
> One question, though. If the ammonia is going to mix well with everything else and the PVA mixes well with everything else how big of a deal would it be IF the PVA and ammonia did NOT mix well?


Wow, that's an awkward definition of flocculation. Flocculation is the coalescence of charged particles in suspension around nuclei of opposite charge. For example, water made cloudy by disperse clay particles (which are negatively charged by definition) in suspension will flocculate around aluminum (III+) cations, becoming blobby and eventually settling out of suspension leaving the water clear. Polyvinyl alcohol will floc with very dense anions like borate (via ligands), but I don't think ammonium should be a problem. It needs to be compatibility tested in a small quantity, just in case. Any issue should be immediately apparent. The ammonium cation should favor association with the butadiene latex. The excess ammonia is to replenish ammonia lost from transpiration through the tire, or at least keep a gradient in favor of saturation, to make the sealant longer lasting. The excess in solution is a known potential liability, which so far I haven't found any issue with, and we want it in there as a feature of our improved sealant. I may have unnecessarily raised the alarm earlier with the flocculation thought- I must admit that I sent that post from the toilet on my smartphone, and had a memory lapse. Ammonium is positively charged, flocculation with PVA will not occur.
Our mixture is most definitely a suspension made up of disperse particles of butadiene latex in a solution of water, alcohols, and polysaccharide or PVA thickeners.


ktm520 said:


> I don't know about xantham being cheap, in the states anyway. I paid 15$ for a 1/2lb bag at the grocery. It will proably last me longer than I live though, as a 64oz batch only requires 2tsp. Guess I should have shopped around, or bought online.
> 
> What are suggestions for a common source of PVA? Is it as simple as getting any white PVA glue? I'm considering adding some PVA to one of my pint jars.
> 
> ...


White glue is PVAc, or polyvinyl acetate. Clear, water-soluble glue (Elmer's makes it too) is PVA, or polyvinyl alcohol. The difference is a carboxyl group that has a higher potential for reactivity, which we would best avoid if our goal is a stable mixture. Better off to use the alcohol PVA and leave it at that. I have seen polyvinyl acetate mistakenly called PVA in several places, so just to be clear, if it is white leave it out. Clear is okay, and of course, the more pure the better. I posted a link to bulk PVA not too long ago for sourcing.

I have had similar experience with Schwalbes. My solution has been to brush on the Shoe Goo after giving the tires a soapy scrub to remove the mold release agent. Even if you don't want to mess with Shoe Goo, cleaning the mold release will give you better sealant performance no matter what sealant you use. You will know it is working when the sidewalls quit weeping, and so far the reports are showing excellent performance with the new formulation in that department. I've always had lots of slosh with Stan's, which is where the xanthan gum came into the mix. I thought a clingy slime would be better overall. My half-pound sack of xanthan gum was $12, but it is a lifetime supply as far as tire sealant goes, I was suggesting cheap on a per-batch basis compared to PVA. I re-state that I do have high expectations of PVA thickened sealant.

Lastly, the fibers... the patents for tractor tire sealant really revolve around fibers and chunks more so than latex. The first thing I would have done if I were in the states is stop by one of the big fly shops and check out their fiber selection. There are all sorts of fibers available for fly tying, and the bags are only a couple dollars. There are literally hundreds of varieties, finding one with a texture that is not clumpy when wet would be easy, and you can get pretty colors...

Clear as mud? I'm not sure if I'm doing my best explaining today. I've been working on particle physics at work this week and coming home tired, but still managing to ride my bike.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Euro, very clear. Thanks for taking the time to post detailed answers. I was mistaken about white glue not being PVA. The few places I've found PVA suggests it will be more expensive than Xantham, but I'm not sure what % solution will be required with it.

I chose that Schawlbe tire on purpose to test the sidewall sealing capabilites of this newest mix. I mainly run Maxxis now with EXO sidewalls and they don't weep.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

I'm still subscribed to this thread even though I haven't looked at it for a long long time, but it still pops up all the time and we are up to 64 pages for god sake. 

How the heck are you guys still have stuff to talk about? Lol  Hasn't anyone come up with the magic juice yet? 

I just use Stan's. The only argument for home brew that I can see is that it's cheaper. But even with a lot of bicycles and trying new tires fairly regularly I still don't go through that much Stan's. Maybe a quart every 2 years. A quart a year at worst case. 

Another thing is everyone seems to be into some kind of particle addition to their brew. In theory that seems like a good idea to seal larger holes but in practice does it really work or do people just do it because other people do it? It seem to me like it would clog up valve stems and promote tire boogers and dry up your juice. But I guess if you're making the stuff for 1/4 the cost and don't mind taking your tires off every 6 months whether they're worn or not to clean out the inside and replace the sealant then it's a go.

Can anyone give me the Reader Digest version so I don't have to wade through 64 pages? Please. Thank you. :thumbsup:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Start reading at post 1356 and then join the conversation.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

This new mix isn't working just right for me . . . yet. Both the tires I mounted last night are leaking air through the sidewalls. This doesn't surprise for the old Racing Ralph, but the brand new Renegade should have sealed up tight after a few rounds of shaking, or at least it would have with WSS. Not sure what it needs, but I haven't given up.

Did some more experimenting with lint fibers. Long story short, I put a quarter sized hydrated clump into 5 oz of the new mix and it easily dispersed with a little violent shaking. I chopped the lint into 1/4" length clumps before hydrating.

While digging around for something, I found a pint of WSS V1 (made with RV AF) that I didn't know I had. Comparing the viscosity with the new mix, the WSS was noticeable thinner, but that doesn't surprise me since the V1 mix has less latex per volume. I added 1 oz of water to the 5 oz of mix with lint, and the viscosity was closer to the WSS.

I'm going to get a few rides on the tires I have mounted before making anymore changes to the mix. Maybe they will seal up. If not, I guess I will try some of the mix I added lint and thinned with water.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> I must admit that I sent that post from the toilet on my smartphone, and had a memory lapse. Ammonium is positively charged, flocculation with PVA will not occur.


So the noxious fumes affected you adversely? Did you focculate while on the can?



eurotrash666 said:


> Lastly, the fibers... the patents for tractor tire sealant really revolve around fibers and chunks more so than latex. The first thing I would have done if I were in the states is stop by one of the big fly shops and check out their fiber selection. There are all sorts of fibers available for fly tying, and the bags are only a couple dollars. There are literally hundreds of varieties, finding one with a texture that is not clumpy when wet would be easy, and you can get pretty colors...


Interesting idea. I'll have to go check out Cabelas right up the street. However, I'm pretty convinced that my dog is gonna provide me with as much chunkulatory material as I could ever need. I'm gonna throw all her blankets in the dryer before I start mixing...



modifier said:


> Hasn't anyone come up with the magic juice yet?


Orange Seal Cycling | Tire Sealant | Lube | Cleaner might be it but check the price...



modifier said:


> The only argument for home brew that I can see is that it's cheaper. But even with a lot of bicycles and trying new tires fairly regularly I still don't go through that much Stan's. Maybe a quart every 2 years. A quart a year at worst case.


You forgot about "it works better." And lasts longer. Here in Arizona sealant dries up quickly, especially Stan's. I know people that refill their tires every couple months. Me, I fill my tire about half way up so I don't have to check it or worry about running low. Plus, when it hardens I have a solid "booger" tire. :thumbsup:

In about a year and a half I've gone through my first ~.75 gallon batch of WSS2 between two bikes, six tires, and a little extra I pumped in the Mrs' tubes. You are indeed lucky if you only go through a quart in 2 years.


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## modifier (May 11, 2007)

big0mike said:


> Orange Seal Cycling | Tire Sealant | Lube | Cleaner might be it but check the price...
> 
> You forgot about "it works better." And lasts longer. Here in Arizona sealant dries up quickly, especially Stan's. I know people that refill their tires every couple months. Me, I fill my tire about half way up so I don't have to check it or worry about running low. Plus, when it hardens I have a solid "booger" tire. :thumbsup:
> 
> In about a year and a half I've gone through my first ~.75 gallon batch of WSS2 between two bikes, six tires, and a little extra I pumped in the Mrs' tubes. You are indeed lucky if you only go through a quart in 2 years.


Riding in a less than arid climate I find that I only need to add additional sealant once or twice a year.

In a 2.35 tire I'll run 2 Stan's cups of sealant and in a 2.5 tire I'll run 3 cups. Maybe 4 cups in a 3.8" tire. I can understand if you are filling your tires half way up that you must need a lot of the stuff. I don't understand why you are doing this however. It's like if a teaspoon of sugar is enough for your coffee you go ahead and fill the cup half way just for good measure.  One thing it defeats is any weight loss from tube loss.

I've been running Stan's and tubeless tires since 1999 and never have flats unless I punch a big hole in the tread area with a rock or cut a sidewall and both of those things happen very rarely.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

ktm520 you must have done something wrong. The new mixture is more watery than the old mixture. At some point in the discussion of the new recipe, I even questioned that it was 50% water and eurotrash666 confirmed that it is. Mine is very watery, but works great.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> ktm520 you must have done something wrong. The new mixture is more watery than the old mixture. At some point in the discussion of the new recipe, I even questioned that it was 50% water and eurotrash666 confirmed that it is. Mine is very watery, but works great.


"Watery" is a very subjective term. I suggest you revisit or edit the recipe you posted because from my experience there is no way you put 1.3 oz of xantham gum in 10 oz of water, unless your xantham gum is very different than what I have. Not ruling out I did something wrong, but I already posted my recipe (which is 50% water and 25% pg) and its not a very complicated mix. I think my mix came out a little on the thick side, so its good to now your mix is thin and working well. Lots of variables here, including tire brand/model.

Chunkulators will affect viscosity as well. After I added lint to the 5oz, it noticeably changed the viscosity. Still "watery", but not as "watery" as WSS. I also only used 2oz of turf grass and think it is on the heavy side.

Anyway, I got a little ahead of my self. Maybe my expectations are too high? Tires held air over night. Its been a long time since I've mounted really porous tires, so maybe that was the dominant variable.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

If you got Schwalbes to seal overnight, you've got Stan's beat. Our formula should most definitely do a better job on the pores. On viscosity, I think Stan's is too thin. Since a small amount of xanthan gum can change the viscosity significantly, there will be a lot of variation here. I am of the mind that a more clingy consistency is better, and my logic is that if it is clingy it should coat the tire all the way to the beads after riding a short distance. This would make initial seating faster, Stan's is a PITA if the beads are not cooperating. It would also leave a slime coat throughout the tire for a short while before settling to the bottom, which is better since a puncture can seal even if it is not the low point of the tire. This is another shortfall in performance for Stan's. I'm having a tough time coming up with a good description for the viscosity I am picturing, but pancake batter comes to mind. I think that 3 red scoops per tire for 2.25's is the way to go, but you all can make up your own minds about that after getting a few trailside punctures. With Stan's, the recommended 1.5-2 scoops in a new set of tires barely offers any protection in my opinion,

yourdaguy, at this point if you want to cut any ingredient in favor of better consistency, cut the water. I think that water should be no less than 30% by volume, but if it's too watery at 50% and you're worried about thinning the latex too much by leaving the water at half-proportion and just upping the xanthan gum, it is okay to back off a bit. I do not think this would work at all without a good bit of water in it, but the early suggestions of mixture proportions were just suggestions to get started with based on educated consideration rather than any law or rule holding it to those numbers. The water is really what makes all the stuff work together, but I never meant for the mix to be watery in texture. Slimy is my train of thought.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

eurotrash666 said:


> With Stan's, the recommended 1.5-2 scoops in a new set of tires barely offers any protection in my opinion


I've never used Stans, but couldn't agree more on volume of sealant. I have always used 3-4oz in 29" tires. Which brings up a good point, I may have not put enough sealant in the RR I mounted at only 3oz. I think Stans scoop is 1oz?



eurotrash666 said:


> The water is really what makes all the stuff work together, but I never meant for the mix to be watery in texture. Slimy is my train of thought.


My mix was closer to "slimy" than "watery", so maybe I'm not so far off. One of the first things I noticed after mixing the xantham was how slimy it was. Could barely wash it off my hands.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

modifier said:


> I can understand if you are filling your tires half way up that you must need a lot of the stuff. I don't understand why you are doing this however.


I'm not. Sorry, that was a joke. For a brand new 2.5" tire I'll squeeze in 4 injectors of sealant. When I refill if I still hear some sloshing around I'll put 1 or 2 in. If I hear nothing I'll put 3 in.



modifier said:


> One thing it defeats is any weight loss from tube loss.


I run dual-ply, 1400 gram tires on Azonic Outlaws. Couldn't care less about weight.



modifier said:


> It's like if a teaspoon of sugar is enough for your coffee you go ahead and fill the cup half way just for good measure.


50/50 coffee/sugar mix is just about right to getting that crap tasting good...


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## WLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Any thoughts on using something like this?

GEMPLER'S ® Ultraseal ™ Tire Sealant -- Commercial-grade 1-gallon - GEMPLER'S

Looking at the MSDS, ethylene glycol is the only thing listed as hazardous. At $57 a gallon, the price is good.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

As I believe I stated earlier, I was intending to put in 2 13cc scoops of Xantham Gum but thought I added 3. So my mix either has 26 or 39 cc's of xantham gum. I used a food processor to mix it since it was not dissolving at all. A food processor has much more blade area than a blender and about a minute of spinning did mix it to the point that there were only a few small globules of xantham gum. I showed .56 ounces in my recipe which assumed 3 scoops so to make 65 ounces, I either used .56 ounces or .37 ounces or Xanthan Gum-this is approximate. Although I have no doubt that my food processor could get 1.3 ounces of xantham gum to disperse in water, that it not what I used.

My mixture is more watery than the previous mixture but it is working great so I see no reason to thin or thicken it. Also, this might be important or not: I was not able to find the normal brand of latex "Castin Craft" that has the ingredients: latex, ammonia and water. The brand I was able to get this time was "Rub-R-Mold" and it has ingredients: pure liquid latex with 6% ammonia. My mixture is around 47% water

Let me re-list what I did:

PG 16 oz
Latex 16 oz
Xantham Gum .56 oz or .37 oz
Ammonia .19 oz
Silica Gel 2.25 oz
Ro Water (or Distilled) 30 oz


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> PG 16 oz
> Latex 16 oz
> Xantham Gum .56 oz or .37 oz
> Ammonia .19 oz
> ...


Ok, that is more in line with my mix. You originally posted that you used 1.28 oz of xantham gum and .6oz of ammonia. Blender vs food processor is a mute point, either will work just fine. Report back when you get a puncture.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

No punctures, but between myself and wife we have 12 wheels (6 wheelsets) and well over half of them used to have little green dots all the time. After the first week of the same tires still having green dots (I assume the pores were impregnated with green fluid) none of my tires have had any dots of any color. Also, as stated by eurotrash666 the new mixture seems to have a coating ability similar to PeptoBismol. Even the container that I store it in has a thin coating on the walls of the container that never seems to go away but does not appear to be dried sealant since when you shake it up, you can see movement.
I am so proud of this formula that I was talking with my 11 year old son today and he said he thought he wanted to be a scientist when he grew up and I said "a chemist would be cool!"


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

So Cabelas turned up a couple possibilities for chunkulators:

Silicone Jig Skirt:









Seems that the silicone might be a good match for bonding latex, rubber, and silicone? Slice it into .5" sections...

"Rabbit" hair for a skirt:









Don't know if it's real rabbit but it looks like a clump of dyer lint. If dryer lint turns out to be good this would certainly be the same as paying for dryer lint. They did have different textures of hair, though. One was substantially more coarse than this cottony looking stuff.

Not sure what "flash" is but it appeared to be a thicker type of "hair" for tying flies:









I had the bright idea of driving over my bag of moisture pellets (can't remember what the damn things are called right now) and, of course, just wound up with a pile of them in the crack of the garage floor with a bunch of them shot all over the place  They won't be as easy to crush as I hoped.

Then I went back to thinking that using rubber as a chunkulator is a great idea. I'm gonna try a belt sander on an old tire so see what kind of chunks I get. Too small like sawdust and they'll likely be useless but too large would be equally useless. Something a little bigger than the chunks in the current slime.

The final idea after visiting Cabelas was to simply buy some thread on a spool. Razor blade it while on the spool (put tape around it if necessary to hold it still) once or twice to get it into manageable sizes and plop 'em in the mix.


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)

Frankly I really think you guys that haven't looked at the fine turf are missing the boat. It is inert, clumps into various size chunks, stays in suspension, fairly cheap, readily available at any hobby shop, and is precut; just dump it in the mix. 
If you are looking for a wider variety of sizes they make several other types of grass. Do yourself a favor and check out Woodland Scenics website

Fine turf








Coarse turf








Field grass








Grass flock


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

^ That makes it too easy, I'm sold!


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

A mixture of "underbrush" and "course turf" looks like just what I want.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

jaydee1445 said:


> Frankly I really think you guys that haven't looked at the fine turf are missing the boat. It is inert, clumps into various size chunks, stays in suspension, fairly cheap, readily available at any hobby shop, and is precut; just dump it in the mix.
> If you are looking for a wider variety of sizes they make several other types of grass. Do yourself a favor and check out Woodland Scenics website
> 
> Fine turf
> ...


I visited Hobby Lobby and didn't see anything similar. But, that particular Hobby Lobby's contents looked more like a Michael's. Guess I need to find a Hobby Bench. That grass does look extremely promising :thumbsup:


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## jaydee1445 (Jan 5, 2012)

big0mike said:


> I visited Hobby Lobby and didn't see anything similar. But, that particular Hobby Lobby's contents looked more like a Michael's. Guess I need to find a Hobby Bench. That grass does look extremely promising :thumbsup:


I got mine at hobby lobby. It is for model trains sku# 298075
To be honest I don't know how anyone finds anything in their store:madman:


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## boboxx (Nov 15, 2011)

What about using 2-Butoxyethanol instead of the PG? it listed in most latex paint content and is readily available as whiteboard cleaners.

Expo white board cleaner

http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/engineering/ElChemInventory/MSDS/ExpoWhiteboardCleaner.pdf


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

I would say no, it is an irritant with a toxic metabolite. The fact that it is an ether gives it a weak link. Dish soap would do just as well as a surfactant. The benefit of the diols PG or EG is two abstractable protons and the resulting interactions with water that inhibit water loss.


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## campykid (Jun 24, 2007)

*latest and greatest*

Wadester,
What is your latest and greatest brew? Last night I mixed up 16oz mold builder, 20 oz slime, 16oz antifreeze, and 32 oz water. Any changes you recommend? Thanks.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

campykid said:


> Wadester,
> What is your latest and greatest brew? Last night I mixed up 16oz mold builder, 20 oz slime, 16oz antifreeze, and 32 oz water. Any changes you recommend? Thanks.


You've got a lot of reading to do... no slime, no antifreeze, PG, PVA, lint, modeling grass. Back up two or three pages and begin.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

campykid said:


> Wadester,
> What is your latest and greatest brew? Last night I mixed up 16oz mold builder, 20 oz slime, 16oz antifreeze, and 32 oz water. Any changes you recommend? Thanks.


HAHA!! :thumbsup:

I'm all ears Wadester!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

bsieb said:


> HAHA!! :thumbsup:
> 
> I'm all ears Wadester!


Ha indeed. Now that we've got a real chemist in here stirrin' it up, ya'll are making so many experiments that I can't keep up. Sadly, I had just mixed a batch before eurotrash came on - so I'm using it up on 26x4.7 fatties!

I am plotting my next batch. It will use USP propylene glycol and ultrapure water - but I'll probably continue with Slime as the main chunkulator (since it's got PG&UPW fluid in it), with crushed (blendered, actually) silica gel stirred in. Haven't decided on proportions. I liked the old 1/2/2 recipe, because it was "easy". Doesn't mean it's the best.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I'm waiting til I put on new tires also, so I'll catch the second wave of guinea piggin'. I'm stoked about the elimination of sidewall weeping. :thumbsup:


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

I have a tire that the sidewalls just won't seal. It is a Continental race king supersonic. I have tried applying 3 coats of goop/xylol on the inside of the tire and it still won't seal the sidewalls.

Any suggestions?


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## R900 (Feb 23, 2012)

Went tubeless today. Bontrager Race Lite Rims with Bontrager rim strips and valves, Stan's sealant. took a couple tries to get the bead to seal the first time, but the second tire was a breeze.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> with crushed (blendered, actually) silica gel stirred in.


How are you "blending" them? Seems to me that putting 'em in a blender would prove useless but I've not tried it.


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## lemus (Aug 17, 2008)

great thread...i have 1 pt latex/ 2pt slime/ 2pt rv antifreeve readily avail.....is this still a go...or is this so last week???


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## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

> How are you "blending" them?


I found that they split into different sizes when you soak them in the pure water, varying from very fine to chunky so no need to blend or crush. If you shake them about when in the water this also helps.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

rupps5 said:


> I have a tire that the sidewalls just won't seal. It is a Continental race king supersonic. I have tried applying 3 coats of goop/xylol on the inside of the tire and it still won't seal the sidewalls.
> 
> Any suggestions?


Are you referring to the _beads_ or the _sidewalls_? The beads seat very easily with a hand pump if you soap them. I find it hard to imagine the sidewalls still weeping after treating with thinned Shoe Goo. Is the Shoe Goo adhering? Did you clean up the mold release from inside the tire to help it stick? Which mix are you using?


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

I am referring to the sidewalls not the bead. The bead seats, seals and does not leak. The tire will hold air for a while but after about 8-10 miles there will be a few pin hole leaks in the sidewalls. The tire is used and the supersonic models have VERY thin sidewalls to begin with. It was all pin hole / green dots without the goop. I cleaned the tires with xylol while they were mounted inside out on the rims before applying the coat of goop/xylol. The mixture adheres great and I have tried it on 4 other tires with great results (sb8, old style mtn king (non supersonic)). After coating the difference is huge for mounting in that you only need to use a floor pump.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

big0mike said:


> How are you "blending" them? Seems to me that putting 'em in a blender would prove useless but I've not tried it.


Wadester, yourdaguy, and eurotrash666 have all reported success with a blender or food processor to do that in the thread. Easy to miss details with all the thrilling action on all sides.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

rupps5 said:


> I am referring to the sidewalls not the bead. The bead seats, seals and does not leak. The tire will hold air for a while but after about 8-10 miles there will be a few pin hole leaks in the sidewalls. The tire is used and the supersonic models have VERY thin sidewalls to begin with. It was all pin hole / green dots without the goop. I cleaned the tires with xylol while they were mounted inside out on the rims before applying the coat of goop/xylol. The mixture adheres great and I have tried it on 4 other tires with great results (sb8, old style mtn king (non supersonic)). After coating the difference is huge for mounting in that you only need to use a floor pump.


Sounds like the tire sidewall is shot, are the threads showing?


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

*Update*

Update on the quoted mix. I've only got 2 rides on the Racing Ralph, first ride lost 2psi over an hour ride, and second ride didn't loose any air. Sidewalls weeped a little green fluid from old sealant, but it has pretty much stopped now after 2 weeks. It is an older Evolution version (poor beads and sidewalls for tubeless) and I remember it taking a few rides to seal up before with the WSS. This is on a Velocity P35.

Renegade Control held air through the first ride, but leaked down 10psi after sitting for a week. It has since sealed up tight. This is on a Light-bicycle carbon AM rim. I don't have any experience with Specialized tires, so this may be on par.

Hoping to be booger free on the 2month mark.

I got a little excited after first mounting these tires and posted some thoughts about thinning the mix, but I've since dropped all of that nonsense. I do think that this mix will require more sealant volume in the tire than WSS because it is slightly more viscous/slimey. If you use the modelers turf grass for chunks, start out on the ligtht side. I only used 2oz (volume) and it is "chunky". Same with dryer lint, it doesn't take much.



ktm520 said:


> Part 1:
> 16 oz water
> 2 tsp xantham gum
> 1 oz ammonia
> ...


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## billyballa33 (May 23, 2011)

so how do you get dried up stans out of a tire?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

billyballa33 said:


> so how do you get dried up stans out of a tire?


Mount the tire inside out with a tube, scrub/scrape. Done.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

lemus said:


> great thread...i have 1 pt latex/ 2pt slime/ 2pt rv antifreeve readily avail.....is this still a go...or is this so last week???


Yes, that is still a good mix, although I prefer 1/1/3 ratio versus 1/2/2, but that's just me. I think Wadster prefers the 1/2/2 mix. Only complaint that I had with the slime based mix is that is will weep through porous sidewalls and I seemed to get a lot of boogers.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

billyballa33 said:


> so how do you get dried up stans out of a tire?


Good question. Only thing I've found to work well (homebrew, not stans) is a dry micro-fiber towel and elbow grease. It is a pain. Been meaning to ask the same question to see if anyone has found something easy. Mounting inside out does make things ALOT easier, compared to a loose tire.

Oh, it is best to do it right after you dismount the tire before the latex completely dries.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slocaus said:


> Wadester, yourdaguy, and eurotrash666 have all reported success with a blender or food processor to do that in the thread. Easy to miss details with all the thrilling action on all sides.


I thought I'd read that but it seemed like trying to blend sand. Didn't seem like it'd work...



ruscle said:


> I found that they split into different sizes when you soak them in the pure water, varying from very fine to chunky so no need to blend or crush. If you shake them about when in the water this also helps.


Indeed, they do. Put a couple teaspoon fulls in a can of water and listened to it crackle. Once the noise stopped they were broken apart nicely. They are now almost like a slushie for consistency so I suspect it'll take some good mixing to break them up with the rest of the mix.

Also got an old jar and filled it with my 16oz of PG then added the lint. Probably too much lint but it too will need some serious blending in order to get it even. I'm almost afraid the hair is gonna form a booger very soon.



ktm520 said:


> Part 1:
> 16 oz water
> 2 tsp xantham gum
> 1 oz ammonia
> ...


Still seem a solid choice? I thought you mentioned, and it seemed from past recipes, that this had one more part water that maybe needed.

Hopefully, I'll be able to mix mine up Sunday as I'm out and my tires are filthy and leaking from the spokes & bead. Gotta pull it all apart, retape, and reseal. Not looking forward to that but looking forward to trying out the new sealant. Toying with the idea of making a nail track and trying to seal a tire I don't use with it


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## billyballa33 (May 23, 2011)

Thanks! this is my first year running tubeless and i set it up with stans....i guess ill be using that method before long when i try some of the other recipes on this thread


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

ktm520 said:


> Good question. Only thing I've found to work well (homebrew, not stans) is a dray micro-fiber towel and elbow grease. It is a pain. Been meaning to ask the same question to see if anyone has found something easy. Mounting inside out does make things ALOT easier, compared to a loose tire.


Use a wire brush, don't press too hard.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

big0mike said:


> Still seem a solid choice? I thought you mentioned, and it seemed from past recipes, that this had one more part water that maybe needed.





ktm520 said:


> I got a little excited after first mounting these tires and posted some thoughts about thinning the mix, but I've since dropped all of that nonsense. I do think that this mix will require more sealant volume in the tire than WSS because it is slightly more viscous/slimey. If you use the modelers turf grass for chunks, start out on the ligtht side. I only used 2oz (volume) and it is "chunky". Same with dryer lint, it doesn't take much.


I'm happy with that mix. No plans to thin, but I want to expirement more with fibers.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

slocaus said:


> Use a wire brush, don't press too hard.


Wow, thought of that, but wasn't brave enough to try. Brass bristles might be the ticket.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

ktm520 said:


> Wow, thought of that, but wasn't brave enough to try. Brass bristles might be the ticket.


It is an MTB tire that you bang into rocks and things all the time. It is not a hummingbird egg shell. :devil:


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## dimitrin (Nov 23, 2008)

I've been using WSS, and so i don't recall the Stans residue issue. Why are you removing it?


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## mtboz (Feb 10, 2010)

I hate to derail the issue of removing residue. And even further away from home brew and into the realm of rim design and manufacturing however the ideas are related. Could rim manufacturers apply a coating on the bead area that is highly resistant to ammonia allowing use of higher concentrations thus longer sealant working time? I understand that anodized aluminum is fairly resistant, could some other process be used such as ceramic coatings? Could profile of the bead seat be designed to be used with tape that completely covers the inside of the rims?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> How are you "blending" them? Seems to me that putting 'em in a blender would prove useless but I've not tried it.


You have to wet them. Dry blending? Waste of time - makes a little dust and leaves the rest alone. Premix with water/glycol, and literally takes 15 seconds.



lemus said:


> great thread...i have 1 pt latex/ 2pt slime/ 2pt rv antifreeve readily avail.....is this still a go...or is this so last week???


Yep. Soooooooo last week. Only lasts 6-12 months while sealing every thorn hole you get. Lame. We are far beyond that now, having added a month or two of life to it. Main improvement seems to be lack-of-boogering.

Relax, don't worry. Ride your bike with what you got.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The other main improvement is the lack of little pin hole weeping of green fluid. Out of my fleet of tires there were 4-5 that were particularly bad and basically never quit until the mix dried up. After less than 2 weeks of the new mix, all tires quit weeping. Some of the worst weepers weeped green until they cleared their poors of the green stuff, but then they sealed tight.


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## snodrift (Nov 2, 2011)

Found on the tractor supply website (need to check our local store this weekend) : 1 gallon USP propylene glycol, $21. Now to find a local source for latex for mixing up a brew...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Picked up my ammonia just now. Ready to mix Sunday. :thumbsup:

My thoughts again are:

Mix 16oz water, 16oz PG (lint already in PG), < 1oz ammonia
Mix in 16o latex
Mix in chunkulators (why can't I ever remember what those damn moisture seeds are called?)
Add PVA to desired consistency

Might need more water according to others recipes so I guess we'll see.

I know there was an issue with mixing the latex with antifreeze in a certain order causing immediate boogering or coagulation. Shouldn't have that worry now, correct?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

First thoughts:
Cleaning off a rim that's been previously taped sucks donkey balls.

Took 18oz of glue to get it even slightly thicker than water. I can't imagine how runny it is with more water like one of the previous posters...

Silica gel sinks. I don't think that's a big issue except for the fact that it makes it difficult to reliably get a dose of it into the tire.

Can't tell if the lint/hair sinks or suspends. When pouring some from one container to another there doesn't seem to be as much in the second container as it seems there should be as I put a boatload in.

First tire seated without so much as one bubble but I suspect that's more due to the tire molding to the rim for the past 6 months than the sealant.

Need to stop by HD to get more Gorilla tape so I want to pick up something to puncture the tire to see what the sealant does. I suspect it will work but I'm always leary... Especially 'cause it is so watery. I had the same reservation after my first applicatiin of WSS 2.

Sent from my Thunderbolt via Tapatalk


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Did you use xanthan gum?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

PVA is supposed to be an alternative to the x gum.

Sent from my Thunderbolt via Tapatalk


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Second thought:
If injecting it through the stem via a syringe the silica gel WILL plug your tube up if you scoop too much out.

As said earlier, the silica gel sinks so I poured the whole mix back into a paint bucket, stirred it up then used a measuring cup to scoop some into a funnel and into the syringe. I did this in an attempt to ensure that I get some silica gel into each portion but on my last scoop I got enough to plug the tube.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

My silica gel seems to have almost neutral bouyancy in my mix, but regardless, I use a Stans syringe and have always lowered it through the mixture as I am filling it. That way, even if the mixture stratifies, I am getting some from every strata.

I was very concerned that the few unbroken beads of silica gel would clog the valve stems, (see previous posts) but decided to try it anyway after the first 2 tires that I put the mixture in through the bead seat. Suprisingly, after 10 tires of going through the valve stem, this is a non-issue. I am using Stans stems by the way. Apparently, the unbroken beads are just small enough to push through.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> My silica gel seems to have almost neutral bouyancy in my mix, but regardless


Odd, 'cause mine isn't even close. It may take a couple seconds for the majority of it to sink once it's been stirred but it sinks for sure. We'll see how it work in about an hour...



yourdaguy said:


> I was very concerned that the few unbroken beads of silica gel would clog the valve stems,


I'm not sure I'd try it if I used Presta valves, myself, but knowing what I know now it could be avoided by paying attention to what you're dumping into the funnel. Won't happen again... I think.


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## campykid (Jun 24, 2007)

*Summary please!*

Wadester,
Per bigOMike I have gone back several pages and am still not clear on what you are using. Could you please summarize your current recipe with proportions and source of the components. Also since I now have a large vat of WSS 1.0, could you comment on how it compares to Stans and what you don't like about it. Would you add anything to the mixture or just use itt as is? Thanks


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

campykid said:


> Wadester,
> Per bigOMike I have gone back several pages and am still not clear on what you are using. Could you please summarize your current recipe with proportions and source of the components. Also since I now have a large vat of WSS 1.0, could you comment on how it compares to Stans and what you don't like about it. Would you add anything to the mixture or just use itt as is? Thanks


With all the recipes posted, I find it hard to believe you read the thread. You are asking to be force feed instead of picking up the spoon and sampling.

http://forums.mtbr.com/9173033-post1602.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/9204983-post1643.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/9163737-post1582.html
http://forums.mtbr.com/9109523-post1545.html

And there is NO "best", "killer", "the one!" mix, this is OSS, *OPEN* Source Sealant, test, think,mix, try, report. Eveyone has different needs, bikes, tires, rims, riding style, environments of use and storage.

This is an artisan micro brew, compared to a conglomerate vat produced yellow pissy beer. 

And what Wadester is using, he just posted:


wadester said:


> Ha indeed. Now that we've got a real chemist in here stirrin' it up, ya'll are making so many experiments that I can't keep up. *Sadly, I had just mixed a batch before eurotrash came on - so I'm using it up on 26x4.7 fatties!*
> 
> *I am plotting my next batch.* It will use USP propylene glycol and ultrapure water - but I'll probably continue with Slime as the main chunkulator (since it's got PG&UPW fluid in it), with crushed (blendered, actually) silica gel stirred in. Haven't decided on proportions. I liked the old 1/2/2 recipe, because it was "easy". Doesn't mean it's the best.


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## dimitrin (Nov 23, 2008)

slocaus, thanks for the links... though I think campykid has a valid point. Eurotrashh66 seems to have a chemical engineer background, and has offered alot of technical data to support the changes in formulation he has suggested. It may be helpful If he could list a recipe based on his intuition and experience.
Eurotrash66, would you be so kind to list a base recipe of what you think would be a good OSS.v.1?

I am out of WSS, and need to mount a new rear tire. I can readily put it to the test and report what I find.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

My recipe


big0mike said:


> Mix 16 oz water, 16 oz PG (lint already in PG), < 1oz ammonia
> Mix in 16 oz latex
> Mix in 4 heaping teaspoons of silica gel presoaked in RO water to break into pieces
> Mix in 20 oz of PVA (instead of Xantham Gum) to desired consistency


I still think it's pretty thin. I know it has to be thin enough to circulate easily inside the tire as it spins at a high rate of speed but I don't know where that happy medium of thickness is.

If I have to mix it again I would add the lint and silica gel last and I'm not totally positive I'd even add the silica gel 'cause it sinks and doesn't suspend in the solution.

I would also contemplate more PVA or less water & PG to make it a little thicker. Don't think it needs to be a lot thicker but we'll see. Still need to rig a nail or ice pick so I can stab this tire and see what happens.



campykid said:


> Also since I now have a large vat of WSS 1.0, could you comment on how it compares to Stans and what you don't like about it. Would you add anything to the mixture or just use itt as is? Thanks


It works better, is chepaer in quantity, and lasts longer.

If you've got WSS 1 just use it 'til it's gone. It's still gonna work better than Stan's. This newer version SHOULD have a longer life inside the tire but that has yet to be determined.


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## campykid (Jun 24, 2007)

"With all the recipes posted, I find it hard to believe you read the thread."

Believe it, I may just not be bright enough. Condescending remarks are not very helpful. I am just trying to determine the differences in all these brews, the advantages and disadvantages. Is one brew better than the other because it seals the tire better, or more resistant to small vs. large punctures? I have been using stans for years and am a little nervous venturing out into the woods with a new brew. I like the idea of WSS being cheap to make and resistant to drying out, and WSS 1.0 is so easy to make. I'm not sure about this polyvinyl alchol, xanthum gum, silica as to where to buy it, and should I add it to my WSS 1.0. I welcome any *constructive* input.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

The new ingredients are replacements for the old ingredients in WSS, not _additives_. Search out Eurotrash666 incredibly enlightening posts.

As someone stated just above, use what you have now as it is, since we know it works, even if it may form boogers sooner or dries fast. We are talking teensy steps of improvement here, and pennies more saved. The original WSS is probably 90-95% of the way there in terms of performance and price goals. This new stuff may add 1%, 5%, 10%, it is mostly geeks at play. 

When it is gone, make more of the same, since it is proven to work, or try one of the new blends that are just now being concocted, tested and evaluated.

*What you are asking has not been determined yet*. This is beginning Work In Progress, just started. Check back in a year for the results, and then the advantages and disadvantages will be known. Right now it is a theory, just being put into practice and tested.

There are various links in the thread, based on what country people live in, as to where to obtain polyvinyl alcohol, xanthum gum, silica, etc. Most have to mail order it and have found it with Internet searches.

If you do not want to experiment with something new, then use the old formula.


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## campykid (Jun 24, 2007)

Thank you, that's exactly the info I was looking for. I will stick with WSS 1.0.


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

HI
What an amazing development over the last couple of months in this thread, just been sitting here for hours reading all the posts from this year. Very interesting and fantastic work by you guys, love the open source element to the whole thing.

Going to get started on the new mix now.


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## random walk (Jan 12, 2010)

I finally mixed up my first batch of WSS v._whatever_ (1 MB, 2 Slime, 2 RVAF). Used it on 3 tires as follows:

- Popped open the bead and refilled a 2.4 Ardent on a Alex DH19 rim, split-tube ghetto. Aired up with no bubbles on first try. Still 40 psi after 3 days.

- New Exiwolf 2.3 wire-bead on Alex DH19 rim, gorilla tape ghetto, valve cut from old tube. Took a while to air up -- had to get the compressor pressure up >120 psi. Only bubbles were from the valve stem, but after a few shakes those went away. Still 40 psi after 1 night.

- Used to seal the bead on an old tubeless wheelbarrow tire.

Have another 2 MTB tires to convert. Will have enough WSS to last a while and see how OSS plays out.


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## mtboz (Feb 10, 2010)

I opened up one of my daughters diapers out of curiosity. I found what looks like fibers and some sort of white powder. I soaked it in a little water and the powder swelled a shocking amount, the tiny powder particles now the size of table salt and had the consistency of jello. I assume and hope that this is non toxic, it is in contact with baby butts. Perhaps this could be a good substitute for Silica.


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## mtboz (Feb 10, 2010)

So the powder in diapers is polyacrylic acid. Its a polymer and is highly hydrophilic. Still have not identified what the fibers that hold the polyacrylic acid in place are. I assume low grade cotton.

Any thoughts from the chemists on the polymer polyacrylic acid?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Ammonia is a base. If you combine an acid and a base, I believe you get a salt. Doesn't sound good to me, but I am not a chemist, but I am willing to play one one TV.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

I'm assuming this recipe is good enough. I have everything and I plan on using liquid latex instead of mold builder. This is simple and I have the ingredients. 16oz mold builder, 20 oz slime, 16oz antifreeze, and 32 oz water. Any suggestions since I am using liquid latex? Just add a little water as I go to get the right consistency?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

"Rod" said:


> I'm assuming this recipe is good enough. I have everything and I plan on using liquid latex instead of mold builder. This is simple and I have the ingredients. 16oz mold builder, 20 oz slime, 16oz antifreeze, and 32 oz water. Any suggestions since I am using liquid latex? Just add a little water as I go to get the right consistency?


you can do that or you can read the few weeks of posts to see all the changes. OSS is about innovation, not "the one right way"

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

slocaus said:


> you can do that or you can read the few weeks of posts to see all the changes. OSS is about innovation, not "the one right way"
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


I'm just looking for something simple that works. I'm assuming this works since it was widely accepted at one point recently.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

"Rod" said:


> I'm just looking for something simple that works. I'm assuming this works since it was widely accepted at one point recently.


Assuming Liquid Latex === Mold Builder then, yes, you'll be fine with what you've got :thumbsup:


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## markymark (Oct 30, 2004)

big0mike said:


> Assuming Liquid Latex === Mold Builder then, yes, you'll be fine with what you've got :thumbsup:


I went out and bought liquid latex which is also called 'spray latex' here and has a viscosity very similar to stans, ie very runny, and smells of ammonia.

Mould Builder I think is the same as what's called called 'brush latex' here and is thicker, like a thick paint.

So I guess ad less ammonia if using liquid latex instead of mould builder .

I've been looking around for all the ingredients you guys are getting into and PG based coolants are almost impossible to get here, or any PG for that matter. Very interested to see how all your recipes work out, but am just going to run the slime, latex etc sealant as it is a lot easier to obtain that stuff here in Oz. :thumbsup:


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

markymark said:


> I went out and bought liquid latex which is also called 'spray latex' here and has a viscosity very similar to stans, ie very runny, and smells of ammonia.
> 
> Mould Builder I think is the same as what's called called 'brush latex' here and is thicker, like a thick paint.
> 
> ...


My sealant is working well so far. I aired up my Race Kings and there were some sidewall leaks. I did a little shaking and it sealed. With my liquid latex I used 1 part liquid latex, 1 1/2 parts slime, 1 part antifreeze, 1/2 water because it was already thin. I don't think the water had any effect really. I will report back after I go for a 50 mile ride this weekend.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Rod-mold builder is so thick it hardly pours so liquid latex probably has only about 10% as much latex in it. I hope it seals punctures as well as the mix with mold builder. Keep us informed.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> Rod-mold builder is so thick it hardly pours so liquid latex probably has only about 10% as much latex in it. I hope it seals punctures as well as the mix with mold builder. Keep us informed.


Alright, I will. I heard air coming out of my sidewalls yesterday and it sealed just fine. I will keep you informed though. It sounds like I need to order some mold builder for the future. I ride a trail with a lot of thorns. I usually get a flat after every ride so it will get tested.


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## MotoX33 (Nov 8, 2011)

I made up some WSS with 1 part mold builder, 1 part slime, and 2 parts antifreeze. Took a few rides to fully seal but now it hasn't lost a PSI in 2 weeks. I only did the rear tire because I was a little skeptical of my mix. I haven't had any flats but I also haven't had any flats in the front that is still running a tube, although I am running 10 lbs less PSI in the rear tire (35-40 front, 25-30 rear). The increase in traction has been very noticeable on rocky and rooty climbs. I ended up making WAY more than I needed so it will probably be a while before I get a chance to try a new mix.


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## duggus (May 11, 2007)

I used basically the original WSS recipe, slightly tweaked

1p - Latex
1 1/2p - Slime
1/2p - 50/50 antifreeze
2p - water

Used the new WTB Bronson TCS tires with no seepage whatsoever on the sidewalls. I think that is credit to the tire. Anyway... Thanks Wadester and all the others for the research!


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

Hey,
Somewhere in this thread it advises applying Shoe Goo thinned w/ toluene to a porous sidewall before adding sealant.

I have lots of Elmers Rubber Cement I'd like to use for this purpose. (contains N-Heptane and rubber latex) I found the msds paper here.
" Incompatibilities: Acids, bases, amines."

*Does anyone know if Rubber Cement will work to make a sidewall non-porous?*

thanks!


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Amines, that is what ammonia is (N at same oxidation state). You can always test a swatch and see if a couple drops of ammonia and PG (AF, whatever you've got on hand) on a rag can wipe the cement off after it's cured. I can't say for sure, heptane is just a solvent, and I don't know the specifics on their claimed rubber compound. Could go either way, but I can attest to Shoe Goo working 100% awesome if you follow my previous instructions on cleaning and treatment.


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

*making a porous sidewall non-porous*



eurotrash666 said:


> Amines, that is what ammonia is (N at same oxidation state). You can always test a swatch and see if a couple drops of ammonia and PG (AF, whatever you've got on hand) on a rag can wipe the cement off after it's cured. I can't say for sure, heptane is just a solvent, and I don't know the specifics on their claimed rubber compound. Could go either way, but I can attest to Shoe Goo working 100% awesome if you follow my previous instructions on cleaning and treatment.


Thanks, eurotrash! 
You the man.

In the interest of science and non-porous sidewalls, I'm gonna test ammonia and PG on dried rubber cement. I'll report back.

I also have some of this spray-on rubber.

I'll test it also.


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

*Rubber Cement*

Hey all, 
Just thought I'd let you all know that Elmer's Rubber Cement works for making a porous sidewall non-porous. 
Well, it's working after 48 hours.
After a month I'll open up the tire and see if the ammonia is deteriorating the rubber cement.

I applied 3 coats. 
I let each coat cure for an hour.










:thumbsup:


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Sounds good! I bet you could have gotten away with a single coat. It doesn't take much to plug the pinholes. Did you find a MSDS for the Elmer's? I'm curious about what their basic monomer(s) is (are). Because it is so gummy, transparent, and in a hydrocarbon solvent, it must be a mix of larger block polymers. If it vulcanizes to the tire, that would be ideal.


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

*chunk variation: fiberglass shards*



ktm520 said:


> Mixed up a batch of Eurotrash's recipe ......./


I mixed up the recipe ktm520 posted but used fiberglass shards for the chunks. 
I also corrected the water and PG amounts in part 3. (8 oz of each)

From ktm520 (and the guru eurotrash):

"Part 1:
16 oz water
2 tsp xantham gum
1 oz ammonia

Part 2:
16 oz latex mold builder

Part 3:
8 oz water
8 oz pure PG

Chunks - 3 oz of ground up fiberglass rod (like a fishing pole or bike flag pole)

Mix part 1 in blender on low speed. Combine part 1 and part 2 in larger container shaking well. Add part 3 and shake well. Add chunks, shake well."

I'm really impressed. 
Nice and gloppy. 
More viscous than Stans. 
Sealed up nicely on an old tire w/ a sidewall cut. 
The fiberglass chunks have a neutral buoyancy.


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## MotoX33 (Nov 8, 2011)

Well I was pretty disappointed in my tubeless brew this weekend. 3 miles in to a planned 16 mile ride I got a thorn in my tire and the sealant just wouldn't fill the hole. I shook it around and put the hole at the lowest point to help it plug the hole but no luck. I ended up putting a tube in but forgot my hand pump and the CO2 cartridge I had didn't get it fully inflated so I had to limp it back to the car. 

My mix is 1 part mold builder, 1 part slime, and 2 parts RV antifreeze. It looked like the sealant spread out nicely inside the tire but it was kind of thick so maybe it wasn't able to flow into the hole? Or perhaps the hole was too big and the chunks couldn't plug it fast enough? Any other ideas?


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

A thorn? Really? Huh, maybe you need a chunkulation modifier like foam rubber turf grass. With your ingredients, it should work even though it is not a fully optimized blend. Stan's is not an optimized blend either- at least not for performance (probably optimized for profit margin and just enough life to keep us buying more every quarter). So, did any formula sputter out of the puncture? If so, it is definitely a chunk factor.


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## MotoX33 (Nov 8, 2011)

eurotrash666 said:


> A thorn? Really? Huh, maybe you need a chunkulation modifier like foam rubber turf grass. With your ingredients, it should work even though it is not a fully optimized blend. Stan's is not an optimized blend either- at least not for performance (probably optimized for profit margin and just enough life to keep us buying more every quarter). So, did any formula sputter out of the puncture? If so, it is definitely a chunk factor.


It was a pretty big thorn and it did spit out a little bit from the puncture. I thought my mix might be too thick because it looked like it spit out what was directly around the puncture but it didn't pull more from the surrounding area to help fill the hole. I guess it could just be that the the chunks didn't get in to fill the hole right away. Either way, I'm bummed because this kills my confidence in going tubeless which I was already worried about. Still going to give it another try though.

Just for clarification, the sealant *should* fill a puncture before much air has a chance to get out, right?


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Well, not always. Sometimes a little shake and bounce is needed. Re-inflate the punctured tire, and shake it puncture side down, see if you can't get it to seal. Sometimes, it takes a couple chunks to blow through before one really grabs.


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## MotoX33 (Nov 8, 2011)

eurotrash666 said:


> Well, not always. Sometimes a little shake and bounce is needed. Re-inflate the punctured tire, and shake it puncture side down, see if you can't get it to seal. Sometimes, it takes a couple chunks to blow through before one really grabs.


Well the moral of the story is I should have been prepared and had my hand pump. That way if (when) a puncture doesn't seal right away, I am still able to get it fully inflated after it does seal. I avoid using CO2 if possible since I read that it can mess up the sealant.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Yes, CO2 + water -> carbonic acid -> booger ball
I carry CO2 in case I can't seat the bead with my hand pump. I also carry a tube, when all else fails. You can use the tube to seat the bead, by wrapping it around the mounted tubeless tire dead center, like a rubber band, and pulling tight so that the beads are forced into the edges of the rim... old tractor tire trick we used to do with a ratchet strap or a chain and binder when the bead came unseated. Works on bike tires, too. Pump fast.


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

ktm520 said:


> ...What size tire was it and how much sealant did you use? Its normal for the tire to get a thick coating, but if there is no fluid left, you can't expect a puncture to seal.


I agree. I like to have almost a 1/2 cup sloshing around _*after*_ the inside is coated.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

MotoX33 said:


> Well I was pretty disappointed in my tubeless brew this weekend. 3 miles in to a planned 16 mile ride I got a thorn in my tire and the sealant just wouldn't fill the hole. I shook it around and put the hole at the lowest point to help it plug the hole but no luck. I ended up putting a tube in but forgot my hand pump and the CO2 cartridge I had didn't get it fully inflated so I had to limp it back to the car.
> 
> My mix is 1 part mold builder, 1 part slime, and 2 parts RV antifreeze. It looked like the sealant spread out nicely inside the tire but it was kind of thick so maybe it wasn't able to flow into the hole? Or perhaps the hole was too big and the chunks couldn't plug it fast enough? Any other ideas?


I've had this problem before with similar mix (3 parts RV AF vs. your 2) and a similar puncture. I attributed the problem to not having put enough sealant in the tire initially. What size tire was it and how much sealant did you use? Its normal for the tire to get a thick coating, but if there is no fluid left, you can't expect a puncture to seal.


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## WrecklessREX (Feb 25, 2011)

Motox33, I would try thinning your mix with 1 more part AF and make sure there is enough sloshing around in the tire after its coated. The extra part AF will help keep it more fluid so that it can still get to the puncture but won't require as much sealant as it would being thicker.



I picked up a gallon of propylene glycol at my local Tractor Supply Co. for $20.99 + tax. 

I also had my girlfriend and her coworkers save me the packets of silica gel they come across in the lab. After a week I have about 1/2 cup of pre crushed silica gel for the first batch! I should be mixing by the end of the week. I still have about a half of a gallon of the original mix that has been working without issue.


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## MotoX33 (Nov 8, 2011)

ktm520 said:


> I've had this problem before with similar mix (3 parts RV AF vs. your 2) and a similar puncture. I attributed the problem to not having put enough sealant in the tire initially. What size tire was it and how much sealant did you use? Its normal for the tire to get a thick coating, but if there is no fluid left, you can't expect a puncture to seal.


It's a 26x2.1 Maxxis Crossmark. I put 3 oz in when I first did it. A very small amount leaked out as the bead was seating, but I didn't think it was enough to matter. I'm going to thin the mix with a little more AF and use 4 oz next time. I suppose it's better to have a little too much than not enough.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

WrecklessREX said:


> I also had my girlfriend and her coworkers save me the packets of silica gel they come across in the lab. After a week I have about 1/2 cup of pre crushed silica gel for the first batch! I should be mixing by the end of the week.


Just a reminder for the silica gel- don't use the orange, pink, or blue color-changing stuff, the indicators are chromium or cobalt, depending on type, and we don't want that in solution. Disposable packets are usually plain, but lab desiccators and cabinets always have color indicators.


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## WrecklessREX (Feb 25, 2011)

eurotrash666 said:


> Just a reminder for the silica gel- don't use the orange, pink, or blue color-changing stuff, the indicators are chromium or cobalt, depending on type, and we don't want that in solution. Disposable packets are usually plain, but lab desiccators and cabinets always have color indicators.


Thanks, I read that earlier in the thread but good advice for those that missed it. I was able to use 90% of the packets but some had what looked like tiny crushed gravel and some had small beige balls which I trashed. What I used looked like perfectly clear ground salt, some was fine ground and some is more course but all of it looked like it will fit through the valve stem easily.

Another note about the WSS that I have been using is that I got inside to pick a booger from using co2 a couple of weeks ago ( I don't carry a pump). I pulled the booger and found 4-5 small (1cm) round balls in the tire from the fibers in the slime balled up so tight I could barely break them apart. They didn't seem to be held together by latex but acted more like a sponge when squeezed. I remember finding these during a tire change a while ago but didn't think anything of it. Even though the WSS has been performing its duties, I guess thats one more reason to move on to the OSS.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

MotoX33 said:


> It's a 26x2.1 Maxxis Crossmark. I put 3 oz in when I first did it. A very small amount leaked out as the bead was seating, but I didn't think it was enough to matter. I'm going to thin the mix with a little more AF and use 4 oz next time. I suppose it's better to have a little too much than not enough.


I just realized you didn't list _water_ as an ingredient. Water is very important for the chemistry, it is the critical solvent that significantly impacts the behavior of the mixture. The liquid component should be 30-60% water, depending on how you like the flavor, er, viscosity.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

eurotrash666 said:


> I just realized you didn't list _water_ as an ingredient. Water is very important for the chemistry, it is the critical solvent that significantly impacts the behavior of the mixture. The liquid component should be 30-60% water, depending on how you like the flavor, er, viscosity.


"RV" antifreeze is 50/50 premix glycol/water - IIRC


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

My recipe:


big0mike said:


> Mix 16oz water, 16oz PG (lint already in PG), < 1oz ammonia
> Mix in 16oz latex
> Mix in silica gel
> Mix in 24oz PVA (glue) to desired consistency


Looks pretty similar to yours...


client_9 said:


> Part 1:
> 16 oz water
> 2 tsp xantham gum
> 1 oz ammonia
> ...


As it is it is barely thicker than water. I'm wondering what the difference xantham gum makes vs. the PVA? I"ve been considering adding more PVA to thicken it up a little but want to run it like this for a while to see the results and so I'm not guessing on how much I added in relation to how much is left in the batch since some is already in my tires. I know my first WSS batch wasn't much thicker than water and it worked very well.


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## MotoX33 (Nov 8, 2011)

eurotrash666 said:


> I just realized you didn't list _water_ as an ingredient. Water is very important for the chemistry, it is the critical solvent that significantly impacts the behavior of the mixture. The liquid component should be 30-60% water, depending on how you like the flavor, er, viscosity.


You're right and I'm pretty sure my problem was not the chunks or the amount of solution, but the viscosity was just too think. Once the solution spread out over the inside of the tire, it basically stayed where it was at and wasn't able to move around. Thanks for the help guys, I'm looking forward to ditching the Slime and going OSS once this runs out.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

big0mike said:


> As it is it is barely thicker than water. I'm wondering what the difference xantham gum makes vs. the PVA?


Wow, that is nothing like the mix I made which is what client_9 based his mix. I can say that it only takes a very small change in xantham content to make a huge difference in thickness. Also, xantham appears to be an excellent emulsifier. My mix will stay in solution for days, but I only used fibers and turf grass. I wouldn't be too worried about the silica gel settling, but it looks like your liquids are separating as well. What did you use for your source of PVA?

Part 1 of my mix (xantham, water, ammonia), was pretty thick, similar in consistency to a thick gravy.

I don't really see the benefit of using silica gel. Seems like way more trouble than its worth imo. Turf grass and fibers is the way to go for chunkulation.

Not really a significant data point, but I recently got a small puncture in a front tire (center of tread, Ikon). It was filled with WSS V1, but had been mounted for 6 months and was low on sealant. Hole spooged sealant but never clotted. I remounted this tire with the new mix and it sealed right up and didn't spooge at all. Take it for what its worth.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

MotoX33 said:


> You're right and I'm pretty sure my problem was not the chunks or the amount of solution, but the viscosity was just too think. Once the solution spread out over the inside of the tire, it basically stayed where it was at and wasn't able to move around.


This is exactly why I didn't like WSS v2 (2 parts slime).


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## rwagoner (Nov 4, 2011)

What do you guys think about using nylon fibers? I was checking out rerubber dot com. Not sure on what their prices are. They also have some different size rubber chunks.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

ktm520 said:


> Wow, that is nothing like the mix I made which is what client_9 based his mix. I can say that it only takes a very small change in xantham content to make a huge difference in thickness. Also, xantham appears to be an excellent emulsifier. My mix will stay in solution for days, but I only used fibers and turf grass. I wouldn't be too worried about the silica gel settling, but it looks like your liquids are separating as well.


Yeah, you used a little bit of xantham gum and I used more PVA than water. Almost more PVA than water & PG combined. Maybe PVA is not the best choice for a thickener?



ktm520 said:


> What did you use for your source of PVA?


I followed the link that eurotrash posted to the school supply store... Washable Clear Glue



ktm520 said:


> I don't really see the benefit of using silica gel. Seems like way more trouble than its worth imo. Turf grass and fibers is the way to go for chunkulation.


Possibly. I was going for cheap (since that's the idea behind OSS, right?) and I found a big bag of silica gel in some packaging for a collating machine we got at work. It had to be at least a pound of the stuff. Putting it in water breaks it up into smaller pieces and I've got a sh|tload of it left for the next batch.

I may have to try another batch with xantham gum just for giggles. Or, I guess I could just add some xantham gum or more PVA to my mix. Ahh, I guess I'll just wait to see if it fails and then worry about it then 

I think tomorrow I'll time how long it takes to separate.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

big0mike, it looks like your mix has formed flocs. That's unexpected. I take it the pinkish color is antifreeze?

ktm520- yep, xanthan gum is an emulsifier, that's what I had in mind.

MotoX33- I'd like to address the viscosity issue. Considering all Slime products, and the agricultural/commercial sealants I surveyed, they are all very clingy and thick. The major hate factor coming from me toward Stan's (other than price and weak performance) is the watery puddling at the bottom of the tire. This does two things- first, when you get a puncture while rolling along at a singletrack pace, you get the awesome piss-spray-piss-spray of sealant all over you and your bike as the hole reaches the bottom where the sealant is, then air blows PG spray all over the place(contaminating your brake rotors and pads in the process) before it really seals. I think that the answer to your concern of the sealant being too thick is to add another ounce per tire. Being clingy will help it stay coated across the entirety of the tire, even for a short time after it stops rolling. This puts the sealant where it needs to be to plug the hole, not at a watery puddle in the bottom of the tire. It also oozes through punctures instead of misting spray and losing air while you quickly try to jump off the bike and find the hole to place at the low point, then shake and hope that it seals quickly...

Thanks for the crumb rubber idea, I found this:
Amazon.com: Al's Liner ALS-RC Black Rubber Crumb - 1 Quart: Automotive


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> big0mike, it looks like your mix has formed flocs. That's unexpected. I take it the pinkish color is antifreeze?


Nope, no antifreeze. It was watercoloring from the same school supply store. On that page it has a link to it for coloring the glue. I figured, what the hell, oozing red tires would be cool 

Flocs is what we were talking about earlier, right. Where the mixture doesn't really mix?



eurotrash666 said:


> ktm520- yep, xanthan gum is an emulsifier, that's what I had in mind.


So, given he went the xantham gum route and I tried PVA and he got good results and mine were not so good maybe it's safe to say the glue method is not the better choice?



eurotrash666 said:


> Thanks for the crumb rubber idea, I found this:
> Amazon.com: Al's Liner ALS-RC Black Rubber Crumb - 1 Quart: Automotive


My only concern with that product would be that the "crumbs" are too big. I'm trying to imagine the rubbery surfaces I see on stairs and the chunks never seemed terribly small. Anyone seen anything like that in person?


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## MotoX33 (Nov 8, 2011)

I just ordered the rubber crumbs from the link eurotrash gave so I will be able to tell you exactly what they look like in a few days. I plan on refinishing the floor of my trailer this summer so I'll be using it for that anyways :thumbsup:


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I'm gonna order some xantham gum myself. Any difference on the types or brands?

Xanthan Gum, 4 oz.: Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet Food
Amazon.com: Now Foods Xanthan Gum Powder 6 Oz: Health & Personal Care
Xanthan Gum 1lb Powder USP FCC Food Grade (Buy 5 get $15 off): Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet Food

I'm guessing that since you don't need much the smaller package will work...

Also, on the settling of my mix. I just timed it.

Shook it up real good and started the stopwatch. The silica gel settled quickly but the mixture itself didn't settle at all after 35 minutes which is when I forgot about it. Just looked now and after an hour and a half it's just beginning to separate and settle.

After reading eurotrash's emulsifier comment I'm thinking xantham gum is needed. Possibly won't solve my problem with my current batch but will be used in the next batch. Which may be made sooner than later


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

big0mike said:


> Possibly. I was going for cheap (since that's the idea behind OSS, right?) and I found a big bag of silica gel in some packaging for a collating machine we got at work. It had to be at least a pound of the stuff. Putting it in water breaks it up into smaller pieces and I've got a sh|tload of it left for the next batch.
> 
> I may have to try another batch with xantham gum just for giggles. Or, I guess I could just add some xantham gum or more PVA to my mix. Ahh, I guess I'll just wait to see if it fails and then worry about it then


Sorry, didn't mean to sound so absolute in my statement about chunks. I'm all about the cheap factor, which the turf grass qualifies. 4$ for a small pouch that will probably make 10 batches. But, you can't beat free:thumbsup:

You probably wont have much luck adding xantham unless you can figure out someway to mix it mechanically. Maybe one of those paint mixing paddles in a drill?? You don't need a big package of xantham considering my batch only used 2tsp. I paid 15$ for a 1/2lb bag of it at the local grocery. It will get passed down through the generations.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

eurotrash666 said:


> MotoX33- I'd like to address the viscosity issue. Considering all Slime products, and the agricultural/commercial sealants I surveyed, they are all very clingy and thick. The major hate factor coming from me toward Stan's (other than price and weak performance) is the watery puddling at the bottom of the tire. This does two things- first, when you get a puncture while rolling along at a singletrack pace, you get the awesome piss-spray-piss-spray of sealant all over you and your bike as the hole reaches the bottom where the sealant is, then air blows PG spray all over the place(contaminating your brake rotors and pads in the process) before it really seals. I think that the answer to your concern of the sealant being too thick is to add another ounce per tire. Being clingy will help it stay coated across the entirety of the tire, even for a short time after it stops rolling. This puts the sealant where it needs to be to plug the hole, not at a watery puddle in the bottom of the tire. It also oozes through punctures instead of misting spray and losing air while you quickly try to jump off the bike and find the hole to place at the low point, then shake and hope that it seals quickly...


I agree mostly, but I think there is a fine line of being too thick. I've never used stans, so I don't really have a good basis for what you are considering too thin. But, from past experience with thicker forms of WSS, I did not have good luck even when adding more volume. It just made a thicker coating on the tire and wouldn't really flow to seal the puncture.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

ktm520 said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to sound so absolute in my statement about chunks. I'm all about the cheap factor, which the turf grass qualifies. 4$ for a small pouch that will probably make 10 batches. But, you can't beat free:thumbsup:


Not at all. I know it's a work in progress BIG TIME. Being that it sinks now with the xantham gum in it as an emulsifier it may suspend it properly. As it is I'm not sure it's sinking is terrible since if it's on the bottom it's closer to the hole. Maybe?



ktm520 said:


> You probably wont have much luck adding xantham unless you can figure out someway to mix it mechanically. Maybe one of those paint mixing paddles in a drill?? You don't need a big package of xantham considering my batch only used 2tsp. I paid 15$ for a 1/2lb bag of it at the local grocery. It will get passed down through the generations.


I did pick up one of those paddles for this batch. It was a little bit of a pain in the ass because every time I pulled it out it's got the dog hair & lint stuck to it in clumps.

But, my question on xantham gum was there's no difference between brands. Xantham Gum === Xantham Gum? I'm pretty sure that's true...

Plenty of ideas to think about...


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Try the "roux" trick, wet the xanthan gum with PG and then try to mix it in to your existing solution. It may work. As far as stratifying, as long as the two layers don't have distinctly different properties (for example, the thin layer forming a "slick" on the carcass that the thick won't stick to?) it will probably be okay, since the wheel is like a big cement mixer on the trail...

The xanthan gum I got was from the grocery store, 12 oz for 8 bucks or something. I don't see any one brand working differently than another so long as there aren't any additives. There might be something to prevent caking (corn starch?) as long as it is not potassium bitartarate or sodium aluminum phosphate (baking powder stuff) it is probably okay- that would be clearly listed on the ingredients. Anti-caking stuff might not be necessary, I'm just thinking aloud here.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

This is the rubber chunk. It's actually kinda flaky, like that rubber broadcast they use in flooring, only small enough to be sprayed as a bedliner. I've got some on order from Amazon, we'll see how it goes!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> Try the "roux" trick, wet the xanthan gum with PG and then try to mix it in to your existing solution. It may work. As far as stratifying, as long as the two layers don't have distinctly different properties (for example, the thin layer forming a "slick" on the carcass that the thick won't stick to?) it will probably be okay, since the wheel is like a big cement mixer on the trail.


I'm guessing that since it took so long to separate that may indicate that the two layers don't hate each other so much that they won't seal a hole? Guess I gotta start popping some holes in my tires to see if it works...



eurotrash666 said:


> This is the rubber chunk. It's actually kinda flaky, like that rubber broadcast they use in flooring, only small enough to be sprayed as a bedliner. I've got some on order from Amazon, we'll see how it goes!


It's hard to tell from the photo but from your description and what I know of the epoxy concrete coatings I suspect it will work very well...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

OK, what's the story on the rubber crumb? I'm itching to try something else... 

Couldn't find xantham gum at my local grocer. Guess I'll order some from Amazon.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

big0mike said:


> OK, what's the story on the rubber crumb? I'm itching to try something else...
> 
> Couldn't find xantham gum at my local grocer. Guess I'll order some from Amazon.


I'll let you know when it gets here! 

Try a health food store for the xanthan gum. I have a couple friends with Celiac's that can't eat gluten, and xanthan gum is how they get gluten-free flour to stick when baking or for thickening gravies and sauces. It is found in the baking aisle.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> I'll let you know when it gets here!


Ah, hell. You had a picture I thought you had it already... 



eurotrash666 said:


> Try a health food store for the xanthan gum. I have a couple friends with Celiac's that can't eat gluten, and xanthan gum is how they get gluten-free flour to stick when baking or for thickening gravies and sauces. It is found in the baking aisle.


Cool. I was planning on stopping by one 'cause I just started a workout regimen and wanted to get back to the whey protein shakes for working out as well as before rides.


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## finch2 (Nov 13, 2009)

the ground up rubber is awsome. It's my firsrt choice.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Your mold builder is polymerizing. You can extend the shelf life by adding a small amount of household ammonia, mixing well, and storing in an airtight container in a cool, dry place out of the sunlight. 

Edit- it's too late for your can, I'm talking about extending the life of a freshly opened can.


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## Swerny (Apr 1, 2004)

eurotrash666 said:


> If you got Schwalbes to seal overnight, you've got Stan's beat. Our formula should most definitely do a better job on the pores. On viscosity, I think Stan's is too thin. Since a small amount of xanthan gum can change the viscosity significantly, there will be a lot of variation here. I am of the mind that a more clingy consistency is better, and my logic is that if it is clingy it should coat the tire all the way to the beads after riding a short distance. This would make initial seating faster, Stan's is a PITA if the beads are not cooperating. It would also leave a slime coat throughout the tire for a short while before settling to the bottom, which is better since a puncture can seal even if it is not the low point of the tire. This is another shortfall in performance for Stan's. I'm having a tough time coming up with a good description for the viscosity I am picturing, but pancake batter comes to mind. I think that 3 red scoops per tire for 2.25's is the way to go, but you all can make up your own minds about that after getting a few trailside punctures. With Stan's, the recommended 1.5-2 scoops in a new set of tires barely offers any protection in my opinion,
> 
> yourdaguy, at this point if you want to cut any ingredient in favor of better consistency, cut the water. I think that water should be no less than 30% by volume, but if it's too watery at 50% and you're worried about thinning the latex too much by leaving the water at half-proportion and just upping the xanthan gum, it is okay to back off a bit. I do not think this would work at all without a good bit of water in it, but the early suggestions of mixture proportions were just suggestions to get started with based on educated consideration rather than any law or rule holding it to those numbers. The water is really what makes all the stuff work together, but I never meant for the mix to be watery in texture. Slimy is my train of thought.


Guys, first off, I read the almost 70 pages beginning to end over a period of 3 days...thanks everyone for their input.

Now, I read this whole thread looking for a cheaper option to the Stan's....even better if it lasts longer than Stan's apparently lasts, even though I have yet to have to add any additional sealant.

I recently converted to tubeless using Stan's, Arch 29 rims with yellow tape, Stan's presta valves, Stan's injector and Schwalbe tires (RaRa 29 x 2.25, NoNi 29 x 2.25).

The tires had both seen a year's use with tubes.

I didn't soap the beads...I pulled the tubes, inserted the valves, aired up the tires to seat the bead, heard them snap, released the air, pulled the valve core and injected 3 oz of Stan's in each tire. Used a foot pump and aired them up to 40 psi.

Put them on the bike (which was upside down) and spun each wheel for about 10 minutes each.

Done.

No leaks, no mess, no BS...worked as advertised.

I guess there's something to be said about using the proper tools for the job but I am surprised to read that so many people are having trouble...is this due to the "ghetto" install?

I've done 3 or 4 rides and simply air up the tires slightly before each ride (as I did before with tubes).

So, of all the versions listed in this almost 70 page long thread.....do any of these formulas work better, for longer, than Stan's?

V1? V2? the latest?

A whole lot of contradictory findings, problems mixing, booger's, bottles drying up etc.

Slime is easy to come by, as is the RV coolant.. The mold builder may be a PITA to find but there is a Michael's relatively close by.

All this other stuff.....who knows if I can find it.

I will be using this on 1 bike for now, so I don't need gallons of the stuff.

Should I just stay with Stan's or Slime Pro?

Thanks


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Yes, you may be happier with a commercial sealant product. Some of us like to experiment but it's not for everyone, eh?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Swerny said:


> I guess there's something to be said about using the proper tools for the job but I am surprised to read that so many people are having trouble...is this due to the "ghetto" install?


Correct, the correct gear for the job helps. UST wheels are best and UST tires certainly must help tons 'cause they are thicker to prevent seepage as well as designed to fit in the UST groove.

I think most people going ghetto have few issues but the tire choice is probably the most critical piece when going ghetto.



Swerny said:


> So, of all the versions listed in this almost 70 page long thread.....do any of these formulas work better, for longer, than Stan's? V1? V2? the latest?


Yes, they all supposedly outlast Stan's. v1 is better, v2 is even better and OSS v1 has good promise because we've (attempted to) made it more stable so it should dissipate slower in the tire.

I've had an issue, and I'm not even certain if it's a reliability issue yet, because I decided to go with the PVA (clear glue) as a thickener and it not only takes a sh|tload of glue to thicken it slightly it has also caused the mixture to separate after a lengthy time sitting. Something like an hour and a half after shaking it up it is starting to settle and separate. It won't separate while moving so I'm not positive that this will affect it's ability to seal a puncture.

The original OSS v1 uses xantham gum as a thickener and emulsifier. The couple guys that have tried it have reported excellent results at least in its consistency. Haven't heard any results on how it seals punctures.

I bought some xantham gum myself to attempt to get my mixture a little thicker as well as emulsified so all the parts are a little more cohesive and don't separate. Just got it tonight so I have tried to mix it in yet. We'll see this weekend what happens but I suspect I'll be making an entirely new batch.



Swerny said:


> Slime is easy to come by, as is the RV coolant.. The mold builder may be a PITA to find but there is a Michael's relatively close by. All this other stuff.....who knows if I can find it. I will be using this on 1 bike for now, so I don't need gallons of the stuff.
> 
> Should I just stay with Stan's or Slime Pro?


If you've got a Michael's you can get the mold builder. It's readily available on Amazon as well.

If you don't give a rat's ass about experimenting and don't expect your usage of the mix to be such a drain on your finances then yes, go buy some Slime Pro.

I like dicking around with this stuff. Not really sure why, though...


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

big0mike said:


> Correct, the correct gear for the job helps. UST wheels are best and UST tires certainly must help tons 'cause they are thicker to prevent seepage as well as designed to fit in the UST groove.
> I think most people going ghetto have few issues but the tire choice is probably the most critical piece when going ghetto.


Well said. Since it's being brought up, l would say that ALL tubeless setups outside of UST are "ghetto." A Stan's kit or the Caffe Latex kit is just a stem and some tape... That is no different than cutting a stem from an old tube and using inexpensive reinforced packing tape. The kits are not cheap, considering what they actually give you. I have used a Stan's rubber band stem thing in two wheelsets, and I have had to fiddle with, trim, and curse at the damn things because they can obstruct the beads. Oh well, some people think if you don't pay 10x the cost in order to get a packaged kit that it is ghetto... 
UST is amazingly trouble-free, and the beads won't burp even with plain "tubeless ready" tires.


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## piccirilli (Feb 5, 2007)

Ok, I'm hoping some of you folks here can help me out. Really tired of the overpriced and under performance of Stans. After getting a 4rth tire cut, and complete failure of Stan's Sealant to fill the tiny cuts, I'm determined to make my own. After reading numerous pages of this thread, 2 general formulas stand out: 
Mold builders latex/slime/RV antifreeze 
Mold builders latex/propylene glycol//water/ammonia
Also, would this product help? It's the rubber crumbs available on Amazon here: 
Amazon.com: Al's Liner ALS-RC Black Rubber Crumb - 1 Quart: Automotive
Any comments on what is better? I'm not concerned about incremental life extension of the goop as I am about the ability to seal tire cuts.


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## GFisher2001 (Mar 16, 2006)

So far, I have tried the original WSS.

Slime, Antifreeze (couldn't and still can't find RV antifreeze w/o additives), water, latex mold builder

IMO it does not seal as easy as the stans. It is way cheaper and it still will seal a tire, but so far it has dried out faster and not done a very good job sealing an old tire back onto a stan's rim and not done a good job at all sealing around a new valve stem that I tried (AC as discussed in the Weight Weenies forum).

So I am looking for a new recipe. The idea of crushing up things and getting different consistencies, using my wife's blender and buying gallons upon gallons of expensive stuff that may or may not be any better than in turn cheaper than Stan's is making me second guess this "homebrew" thing. 

Can anyone bring me back into the DIY fold. 

Have there been any major and still cheap breakthroughs in mixing your own? I read the first 40 or 50 pages but than it became about crushing things, alchemy, and blending things and different chunk sizes and mixing lint, cat hair, ear wax.......

I've run out of steam. 

Are there any improved versions based on the ingredients I've already spent money on that work better than WSS? 

I have half a jar of the expensive mold builder, 20 oz of slime and gallons and gallons of antifreeze. I'd be willing to buy more antifreeze, but not dropping coin on more mold builder.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^^^The original WSS works at least as well as anything else and lasts a good long time. I'm still using up a batch I mixed last spring. I've gone through three 80 oz batches of WSS V.1 in as many years and have had no problems with it. Still working on my original gallon of EG AF. 

You don't need to change your recipe every time someone tries some new ingredient, just use up what you have. Don't experiment too much till you can reliably run a tubeless setup with a proven recipe. Find a tire/rim combo that works well for you. I'm currently running ust rims and Maxxis tires, a combo that has proven reliable and trouble free for me. A lot of us used Stans or other commercial sealants for a some time and were comfortable with tubeless before we started experimenting. There is a bit of a learning curve involved and if you don't have the patience for it you will end up frustrated. You mention trying to mounting an old tire, have you sucessfully run tubeless before?


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## piccirilli (Feb 5, 2007)

*Also looking for something better*

If Stan's is better at sealing small tears/holes compared to WSS, then I'll stick with Stan's. 
But Stans does not work as I expected. Perhaps when I purchased a quart of Stans last year, it was sitting on the shelf awhile or perhaps it was an older recipe without fillers. 
Either I need a better DIY or add something to Stan's to improve it's ability to seal holes on the battle field.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Stans works if used as directed. If you did not shake the Stans up immediately before filling the tire, you did not get any chunks since they sink fairly rapidly in Stans. Stans is expensive at over $20 per quart. Stans dries out fairly quickly depending on where you live.
WSS works great if you do the recipe correctly. It seals a little slower than Stans, but still seals very well and quickly. It lasts about twice as long as Stans in my wheels and costs less than half of what Stans costs.
Slime Pro (I have not personally tried this) reportedly lasts a long time and seals well too. If you want to save money over Stans and not have to frequently renew your sealant and are not the type to experiment in the name of progress then this might be your brand.
The latest brew from eurotrash666 using PG,latex, RO water, ammonia, silica gel, xantham gum, and variations using rubber crumbs, lint, school glue, etc. This is the best so far from my point of view. While it was a bit of trouble to get all the ingredients and to get them to mix well, it is working great and costs less than $9 per quart to make. It seems so far to have a very long life. After experimenting a little more to tweak the mix; I see having a very superior product that costs less than $9 per quart to make and mixing up a gallon once every year or year and a half. This might seem like a lot of trouble to some, but I am supporting 12 tubeless wheels (6 wheelsets) between myself and my wife. The cost savings in the long run for me are worthwhile and also, not having to add sealant frequently will save a lot of time/hassle in the long run. 
This thread is for people willing to invest the time and energy in order to make progress in sealant technology. If you just want something that works and is cheaper than Stans, get Slime Pro. If you want to explore the edge of the possibilities in sealant technology and get your hands dirty in the process then stick around.

Testing takes time. I have 12 wheels under test for around 3 months so far, but I do not expect to report my final opinion of this mixture for at least another 6 months. This thread has deteriorated to some extent recently with people getting on and saying "i read "X" pages but what works". We are finding out what works, you just have to stick around and read every so often.


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## piccirilli (Feb 5, 2007)

Thanks for the response, Yourdaguy. I've decided to wean off the premixed brand name solutions. I just did a quick estimate of local purchases for a 1/2 gal of the basic brew, and it came out cheaper than a quart of Stan's. Hell, all my bikes have been customized with modified parts to my liking. 
Jumping aboard here is just another progression of experimentation to improvements. If Stan's worked great, I would not have found this thread. But unfortunately Stan's doesn't cut it and expensive to boot. Thanks to all of you for the encouragement and suggestions. I'll pass along any new ideas if I come across them.
PS
Goodbye Stan. Oh, and thanks for forcing me to bail on multiple rides because your product does not work as intended.


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## GFisher2001 (Mar 16, 2006)

bsieb said:


> ^^^The original WSS works at least as well as anything else and lasts a good long time. I'm still using up a batch I mixed last spring. I've gone through three 80 oz batches of WSS V.1 in as many years and have had no problems with it. Still working on my original gallon of EG AF.
> 
> You don't need to change your recipe every time someone tries some new ingredient, just use up what you have. Don't experiment too much till you can reliably run a tubeless setup with a proven recipe. Find a tire/rim combo that works well for you. I'm currently running ust rims and Maxxis tires, a combo that has proven reliable and trouble free for me. A lot of us used Stans or other commercial sealants for a some time and were comfortable with tubeless before we started experimenting. There is a bit of a learning curve involved and if you don't have the patience for it you will end up frustrated. You mention trying to mounting an old tire, have you sucessfully run tubeless before?


Thanks for the info.

I agree with others, I guess the thread gets watered down when people like me ask the "shortcut" questions.

Anyway, yes, I have been riding Stan's brew in Stan's rims for a little over 3 years. I've had great success with every tire I've tried, with some harder than others getting on the rim, but no weeping issues nor sealing issues with Stan's. I've converted non-UST Rampages(~3), Maxxis Ignitor (at least 6 of them), Michelin XT (2), Bontrager, GEAX Saguro, Gato, etc. etc.

So I'd say that I have good experience with multiple tires on 355 rims and Arches.

Just looking for something cheap, works better, lasts longer than Stan's and does require a chemistry degree.

Oh and BTW Slime Pro seems just as expensive as stans.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

GFisher2001 said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> I agree with others, I guess the thread gets watered down when people like me ask the "shortcut" questions.
> 
> Just looking for something cheap, works better, lasts longer than Stan's and does require a chemistry degree.


The shortcut questions definitely degrade the signal to noise ratio for people joining the thread. The developmental process and rationale behind formulary elements are explained both in academic language and in straight-talk, so it is worthwhile to read back and see which questions have been answered. Unfortunately, one glaring factor in the generation gap between those born into a world without Internet and millennials is the abysmal attention span of the latter, but I digress. 
The information I have presented, and ideas that I have proposed are backed with scientific principles not so that you need a chemistry degree to make tire sealant, but so that you can make tire sealant of assured quality cheaply and easily by simply buying the identified components, mixing them together, and going out to ride your bike. No smokescreen of alchemy forcing you to buy Slime and antifreeze here. There is enough information here to make some good sealant for less than $10/quart for your $60 tires on your $3k+ mountain bike, and all you have to do is read, jot some notes on a post-it, hit amazon.com, and head for the trail. big0mike and others have re-iterated the simplified recipes in numerous posts, so there is no haystack to find needles in. Post questions about the mixture, not asking what the mixture is, and post again when you have results or observations that will help others enhance their experience with DIY tubeless sealant. /Quality control rant.


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## piccirilli (Feb 5, 2007)

After reading this entire thread, I did a little experimentation of my own. As I mentioned earlier, the ONLY reason I’m doing this is because Stan’s failed miserably for me multiple times due to its inability to seal puncture holes. And I’m not speaking side walls, these cuts were in-between treads. In my experimentation I found out why Stan’s failed. More on that later.
I needed readily available materials as my first batch, so it became a hybrid of new and old:
16oz pure PG
16oz filtered water
1 tsp. ammonia
24 oz. bottle of Slime
16 oz. mold builder latex. 
I added ground rubber and dryer lint to the slime to beef it up. The rubber mostly 1/6” or smaller pieces with a few ¼” pieces mixed in. The lint was cut up as suggested. 
All mixed well and it turned out a little thicker than Stan’s, which is what I was looking for. 

Now for the experimentation part. My goal was to create a goop which will effectively seal a 3/16” hole or cut on the battlefield. I think this is worst case scenario but not unusual for a tire puncture. 
So using a 3/16” diameter screw for my standard, I punctured a typical tire (29er Ardent 2.25), then proceeded to inject the homemade brew using my trusty modified Syringe. The syringe immediately clogged up, or so I thought so. I couldn’t figure out where the hell the block was, which didn’t appear to be in the applicator. After some prodding, the presta valve (with core removed) backfired, blew the tubing off the syringe and spewed green slime all over me, my compressor and workshop. Not cool but it did get me focused on my original problem. Do not try this in your kitchen. 

It took about 5 attempts using my compressor and a loss of 1 oz. of sealant before the screw hole finally sealed with 30psi. I’m guessing one of the ¼” pieces of rubber finally blocked it. Not inspiring, as this would not work on the trails, unless I want to carry around 10 cans of C02. but I learned an important lesson. 

So here it is in a nutshell. Stan’s will never work because it will take chunks far bigger diameter than will physically pass through a presta valve to seal a 3/16” puncture. Any chunks 1/8” or larger will be blocked by the valve. So Stan’s is limiting itself (along with Slime and other available sealants) to its ability to seal cut tires I typically experience. In fact on numerous occasions, Stan's would not seal a 1/6” cut. Which brought me here in the first place. Personally I would prefer the added insurance of puncture sealing abilities vs. the convenience of adding sealant via valve stem (small chunk) any day. 

Now I need to figure out what chunkulators will quickly and effectively seal these punctures. I haven’t tried the silica, but would not crush it as some suggested. Bigger the better. 
Also, for anyone who purchased the ground rubber, what is the average diameter size of the pieces?

Does anyone think 3/16” puncture is reasonable goal here? 
Thanks to everyone here who helped me get started.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

If you want big chunks, you will have to pop the bead to install them. 

Big note, when I puncture, get the hole to the bottom and keep the pressure low, 10-15 psi for it to seal. Pumping to 30 psi is silly, you will just blow sealant. Let it work for a few minutes at low pressure, then pump it up.

If you are on a ride where seconds count, then I don't have a suggestion. For me, 10-15 minutes for the sealant to work is fine, then I ride on and smile.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

piccirilli said:


> Does anyone think 3/16" puncture is reasonable goal here?


Not even REMOTELY reasonable, IMO.

Just so we are on the same page I just measured my Presta valve. It is 4/16" outside diameter (1/4") so the inside diameter must be near 3/16". You're asking your sealant to seal a hole the same size as the hole that you will likely install the sealant through. If you plan on breaking a bead to install sealant that avoids the above issue but you are still asking A LOT of the sealant to seal such a large hole.

Also, when you stuck your 3/16" screw into your tire it didn't make a 3/16" hole. Use a 3/16" drill bit and it will make a 3/16" hole.

Some more disappointment with my mix...


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## piccirilli (Feb 5, 2007)

Good point about keeping the pressure low to let the sealant work it's success. However, l find larger punctures will not seal no matter what pressure or time I wait. 
Any ideas of large size chunkulator?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Oops. Just see where I blew it...



client_9 said:


> Part 1:
> 16 oz water
> 2 *tsp* xantham gum
> 1 oz ammonia
> ...


I was going from memory and I thought it was 2 tablespoons of xantham gum. I put in probably more than twice the xantham gum for less than a full batch. That was never gonna work. Dang...

Did those of you that tried this mix find that the consistency of the mix changed from the first mix to the next hours or days?

In my experimentation in the video above my consistency changed a little bit after 3 hours and changed substantially over night. I wonder what it will look like in another couple days?

Could just be the bastardization of the two mix recipes...

Oh, well. I was hoping that I'd be able to salvage this PVA mix but was pretty certain I was gonna have to start over. I'll be back... :thumbsup:


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## piccirilli (Feb 5, 2007)

big0mike said:


> Not even REMOTELY reasonable, IMO.
> 
> Just so we are on the same page I just measured my Presta valve. It is 4/16" outside diameter (1/4") so the inside diameter must be near 3/16". You're asking your sealant to seal a hole the same size as the hole that you will likely install the sealant through. If you plan on breaking a bead to install sealant that avoids the above issue but you are still asking A LOT of the sealant to seal such a large hole.
> 
> ...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

piccirilli said:


> I have a few presta valves laying around. The ID is less than 1/8 with core removed. See for yourself. Pull a core and try to push a 1/8" diameter nail through it.


Well, that actually makes my argument stronger. You want it to seal a hole LARGER (3/16 > 1/8 (2/16)) than the installation hole? That means your ONLY option will be to break a bead to install more sealant. Which, to many is not a huge issue. I don't like breaking a bead once it's set. That's why I got Schraders in my ghetto setup.



piccirilli said:


> Also, if pushing a 3/16" machine screw through the tire does not create a 3/16 hole, perhaps what I'm doing here is more a 3/16" cut? Of course the cut expands depending on tire pressure. But in any case, the hole/cut I'm artificially creating is not unusual for the type of punctures I get here. Rocks do not create pin holes. So are we on the same page?


No, they don't create pin sized holes for sure. But I still think you're asking too much to seal a 3/16" inch hole.

Here in AZ we are biggest threat are goat head thorns and cactus, cholla being one of the more popular on the trail. I've never had a failure to seal a hole and I frequently see wet spots on my tires after rides and while sitting in the garage where the old WSS sealant has worked (just barely since it still weeps) on a puncture.

Our next biggest threat is actual sidewall cuts. And, I hope you'll agree, no one expects the sealant to seal those.

I'm sure you'll find something, though if you really need it. One poster mentioned modeling grass for train sets. It comes in different sizes so maybe there's a larger size for you? Hell, it sounds like you may even have luck throwing some gravel into your mix. Not high tech but a hole plug is a hole plug.

I also gave some thought to running a belt sander over an old, cut up tire.

It would not be light but you could dump some lead shot that's used to fill shotgun shells into your mix. It comes in many sizes and is probably pretty cheap.

When searching keep in mind that whatever plugs the hole is gonna have to be larger than the hole you wish to seal.

So, other than thinking out load above I don't have any advice but whatever you come up with do share


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

big0mike said:


> Did those of you that tried this mix find that the consistency of the mix changed from the first mix to the next hours or days?


Nope, but I didn't use the same ratios as client9. My mix had more water/pg, which I did by mistake, but I now think it is the way to go.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

ktm520 said:


> Nope, but I didn't use the same ratios as client9. My mix had more water/pg, which I did by mistake, but I now think it is the way to go.


Hmmm... I'll have to go back and find yours and client9's and compare. My Michaels up the street was out of Mold Builder so gotta find another one...


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

Yeah, my mix was too thick. I added some water.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

big0mike said:


> Hmmm... I'll have to go back and find yours and client9's and compare.


client9 changed part 3 of my recipe from 16/16 water/pg to 8/8 water/pg


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

So this is the consensus then...


client_9 said:


> Part 1:
> 16 oz water
> 2 tsp xantham gum
> 1 oz ammonia
> ...


That's what I'll try when I find a Michael's with MB in stock. Has anyone that bought those rubbers crumbs made a batch yet? I think they put eurotrash's bottle on a slow boat across the Pacific


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

big0mike said:


> So this is the consensus then...


Not in my opinion. client9's mix is inline with what euro originally recommended. That was what I intended to use, but screwed up and doubled part 3. However, it was a good thing that I screwed up because it would have been too think, which client9 has confirmed.

this is my mix:
Part 1:
16 oz water
2 tsp xantham gum
1 oz ammonia

Part 2:
16 oz latex mold builder

Part 3:
16 oz water
16 oz pure PG

Chunks - 2 oz modelers fine turf grass

Mix part 1 in blender on low speed. Combine part 1 and part 2 in larger container shaking well. Add part 3 and shake well. Add chunks, shake well.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Ah... I must've been confused on which of you was closer to correct... Got it now.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

*Mixed a batch...*

I mixed up a batch of the ETSS (EuroTrashSecretSauce) open source sealant today. I used this recipe:

Water 32 oz (4 cups)
Propylene Glycol 16 oz (2 cups)
Latex 16 oz jar
Ammonia 2 tsp 
Xantham gum 2 tsp
Silica gel ½ cup (crystal cat litter)

Mixed in this order: PG + Xanthan, let soak 3 hours (not sure if this is necessary but worked well). Then mixed 8 oz RO Water + Silica gel + PG/Xanthan in blender, pulsed for 2-3 seconds on high. Added this to my jug with the remaining 3 cups of RO water in it, then added the latex and ammonia and shock vigorously for 10 seconds.

The mix has an excellent consistency, much like WSS V.1. The coating on the jug after shaking is thicker than the WSS so I have high hopes. I used the silica gel because I'm more interested in sealing the sidewalls than sealing a sidewall cut. The rubber flakes look interesting but I need sealant now so I went with what I had on hand.

Pics:
1. Picking the blue indicator crystals out of the silica gel crystals.
2. Cleaned silica gel.
3. Xanthan added to a little PG
4. All the PG added.
5. PG-Xanthan mix after 3 hours. I stirred it a couple times...
6. Remaining water in jug with improvised funnel.
7. Blended PG/Xanthan/Silica gel mix added to jug.
8. Latex mold builder and ammonia added to jug.
9. Shake, shake, shake...


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## BigWillie (Oct 16, 2011)

I have tried this mix, but with glitter added. I live in a very cold place and the stuff held up to freezing very well, thanks to the antifreeze. After six months I took a look and the goo looked like new. I have not had a flat yet. I made a gallon and that remained liquid also. If you have ever seen latex house paint after a freeze, the paint turns to a thick jelly (no antifreeze).


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## dimitrin (Nov 23, 2008)

Thanks bsieb!
Now that we have your tutorial up, I am sure that we will get more attempts of the oss, and feedback from any variations.
Is it recommended to use the blender when also adding the turf grass / rubber chunkolators?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

dimitrin said:


> Thanks bsieb!
> Now that we have your tutorial up, I am sure that we will get more attempts of the oss, and feedback from any variations.


Hell, if all you needed was pictures... :madman:

The main problem is likely that we don't use a lot of this stuff. If this were something like a Gatorade-type drink I'm sure we'd have all kinds of variations 'cause we drink a lot of that. Most of us make a batch and are set for a year or longer.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

dimitrin said:


> Thanks bsieb!
> Now that we have your tutorial up, I am sure that we will get more attempts of the oss, and feedback from any variations.
> Is it recommended to use the blender when also adding the turf grass / rubber chunkolators?


I'm not sure you would need a blender unless you use silica gel crystals that need to be busted up. I consider a sidewall cut out of the realm of sealant so not so interested in pursuing that. The rubber flakes look interesting, but again, I am more interested in eliminating sidewall weeping.

The problem with willy nilly mixing is that no good data emerges so I wanted to have some experience the base formula. The WSS formula seems to degrade a little with age in that old WSS weeps through the sidewalls faster than fresh mix. I didn't figure that out by using a different formula every time, but by three years of observation of the same carefully mixed recipe. To each his own... :thumbsup:


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> I'm not sure you would need a blender unless you use silica gel crystals that need to be busted up.


Blending silica gel to bust them up seems to be about as useful as blending sand to bust it up. Just drop 'em in a glass of water. They bust up perfectly :thumbsup:


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

big0mike said:


> Blending silica gel to bust them up seems to be about as useful as blending sand to bust it up. Just drop 'em in a glass of water. They bust up perfectly :thumbsup:


I put mine in a bowl of water for a few hours but they didn't do much...


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> Blending silica gel to bust them up seems to be about as useful as blending sand to bust it up. Just drop 'em in a glass of water. They bust up perfectly :thumbsup:





bsieb said:


> I put mine in a bowl of water for a few hours but they didn't do much...


Using flower drying silica gel beads - there was some "rice crispies" sounds and the container got very warm after pouring water/glycol mix on them. But no noticeable change in bead size.

Put the same stuff in the blender - only takes a few seconds, and it's busted up to grit size.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^^^One advantage of food grade ingredients, at least at the blender stage. I'm assuming the SG is basically inert, but the latex and ammonia I'm not sure about. I've heard they treat hamburger meat with ammonia after shipping it around the world. :eekster:


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> I put mine in a bowl of water for a few hours but they didn't do much...


Odd, I put mine in water and it snap, crackle & popped and heated up the can. The results were a fairly well mashed mix, almost like a very coarse sand.



wadester said:


> Using flower drying silica gel beads - there was some "rice crispies" sounds and the container got very warm after pouring water/glycol mix on them. But no noticeable change in bead size.
> 
> Put the same stuff in the blender - only takes a few seconds, and it's busted up to grit size.


Odd, again. I guess that goes to show the distinct difference in the "same" product, eh?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Water did not reduce the size of my Silica Gel. A food processor was perfect, reducing 95 % of the balls to smaller sizes and leaving a few big ones, that still fit through a Stans valve stem.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

News Flash: dissolving the xantham gum in the PG works great!

Simplified mixing procedure:
put 16 oz of PG in a 32 oz measuring beaker
dissolve in 2 13cc scoops of xantham gum-if you sprinkle it in slowly, it will totally whet. Then mix with a stirrer.
Fill with 16 oz of RO water and stir.
in the final container put in 16 ounces of latex and mix in the other 10 ounces of RO water.
After thoroughly mixing add in the contents of the original beaker and stir thoroughly.
Add in the whetted silica gel. I lowered my dosage of silica gel by around 30% this time.

This was much easier than the previous method and did not require a food processor (although, I did use silica gel that was previously run through a food processor). It probably took about 15 minutes from start to finish.


EDIT: I added about an ounce of ammonia to the latex before I mixed in the water.


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## dimitrin (Nov 23, 2008)

good write up yourtheguy.
Thanks!


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> News Flash: dissolving the xantham gum in the PG works great!
> 
> Simplified mixing procedure:
> put 16 oz of PG in a 32 oz measuring beaker
> ...


nice write up. I need to make this new brew. After seeing yours at the trail build day( march 10th) I keep thinking of trying it. but still have so much let of the other one. lol


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> Simplified mixing procedure:
> put 16 oz of PG in a 32 oz measuring beaker
> dissolve in 2 13cc scoops of xantham gum-if you sprinkle it in slowly, it will totally whet. Then mix with a stirrer.
> Fill with 16 oz of RO water and stir.
> ...


Where do you find scoops measured in CCs?

I was pretty sure a food processor was totally unnecessary, even with those "old" directions. Picked up some more latex over the weekend but I'll be tied up getting married next weekend so I'll be concocting another batch the week after :thumbsup:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

It was a scoop I had laying around. I would say it is a little more than a tablespoon so you could go with 2.2 tablespoons. Congratulations!


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Please note: I edited my post because I forgot to say that I added about an ounce of ammonia to the latex before I mixed it with the RO water.

Also, I mixed about 10 ounces with the original batch I had left and then added some of the school glue to see how that would work. This gave a very milkshake like mixture what I would call creamy as opposed to wattery. I then used this to seal up 2 tires that I changed from Winter rubber to Summer rubber and it seemed to take a little longer to seal, but both sealed up great.

Also, I should comment on the tires that I took off. There were absolutely no bugers or other coagulated parts at all after over 3 months. In both tires, the sealant had dried out some but was still fluid and basically had coated the entire tire on the inside almost like the slime on fish. There was a small amount of thick liquid still rolling around in the tire. The tires cleaned with just a hard spray from the hose, no rubbing except a few patches of white latex on the bead seat that I was easily able to scrape with my thumbnail.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Also, I looked it up 13 cc = .88 tablespoons so you could use 1.75 tablespoons, but 2 would work great too.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> Also, I looked it up 13 cc = .88 tablespoons so you could use 1.75 tablespoons, but 2 would work great too.


I still don't see how you are using this much xantham. I ended up using only 2tsp, NOT tbsp. In my first shot, I used close to 2 tbsp and it turned into a giant ball of gel.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Are you saying the xantham gum was a giant ball of goo or that the entire batch was a giant ball of goo? The first time, I used a food processor to break up the xantham gum which I tried to dissolve in water and it was a ball of goo until I dumped it in the food processor and ran it for about a minute. This time, the xantham gum easily dissolved in the PG.


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

OK guys.. I've been looking into this and trying to figure out how much it's costing to purchase all the products..

this is what I've come up with so far...
_Xanthan gum = $8 (with shipping)
Ammonia = $2 grocery store
Latex Mold Builder = $29.00 (ace hardware)
Anti Freeze? (pure PG) $30...( I figured like 5-10 bucks but I can't seem to find pure PG for that price, it's all mixed %'s_

it's like $70 and you end up with gallons..? ummm I honestly don't need that much. :skep: or want to store it. I mean it sounds cool and all but is there a way to get the stuff and make like a quart without having an mess of extra ingredients and shelling out that kinda cash to try it? Just seems over kill for what little I need...


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

yourdaguy,
2Tbsp of xantham + 16oz water in blender = huge ball of translucent gel that would stick to the wall. This was per your original posted recipe. I stopped at that point and went back to euro's theoretical recommendations and found that your ratio was way off. Started over with 2tsp and it came out as expected.

client_9's mix is also very close to mine.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

thomllama said:


> OK guys.. I've been looking into this and trying to figure out how much it's costing to purchase all the products..
> 
> this is what I've come up with so far...
> _Xanthan gum = $8 (with shipping)
> ...


Depends on what it means to you. I think Stan's is garbage, and I don't think it does its job well. It lasts 2-3 months, maybe? It costs $27/quart at the LBS, and mail order is still liquid gold by the time you pay shipping. Even getting this stuff in Europe is cheaper than Stan's by a substantial margin. I got butt-raped for shipping on a gal of PG (total cost $70) and I'm still at the $12/qt point, if you're in the US it's looking like $8/qt or so. My solution to the 10-12 qt batch is to hook up my riding buddies. They're pretty eager to try something else after opening a tire to find a booger, then grabbing their 2-month old bottle of Stan's golden horse c*m and finding a booger in the bottle even bigger than the booger in their tires. Out here, you pay LBS price or you wait 2+ weeks for shipping from CONUS, so that's an easy sell. Pitch in and make a club batch. Or not. It's a curious bunch of mountain bikers contributing to this thread, the idea may not interest everybody out there.


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## SKullman (Oct 4, 2004)

thomllama said:


> OK guys.. I've been looking into this and trying to figure out how much it's costing to purchase all the products..
> 
> this is what I've come up with so far...
> _Xanthan gum = $8 (with shipping)
> ...


 Your LMB is too much, $15 is better Amazon.com: Mold Builder Liquid Latex Rubber 16oz/473ml: Home & Kitchen

RV PG should be $5, Antifreeze/Coolant Splash RV - RV/Marine Antifreeze | O'Reilly Auto Parts


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## thomllama (Oct 3, 2007)

SKullman said:


> Your LMB is too much, $15 is better Amazon.com: Mold Builder Liquid Latex Rubber 16oz/473ml: Home & Kitchen
> 
> RV PG should be $5, Antifreeze/Coolant Splash RV - RV/Marine Antifreeze | O'Reilly Auto Parts


OK, that sounds better.. but you still need to add shipping to the price so it's closer to $20 for the Mold Builder and they want $15 to ship the anti freeze, but I'm sure I can get it cheaper locally


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Ktm520, I don't understand how yours was that thick with 2 tablespoons. My mixture of water and xantham gum was the consistency of thick gravy not as you describe. When mixed with the other ingredients, it thinned down to a consistency between milk and cream. Could there be different strengths/purity of xantham gum. I got mine at a health food store since my grocery store didn't have any.

This time, i mixed the xantham gum with the PG and it was even slightly thicker than the previous water mixture since PG is slightly more viscous than water, but again when i mixed it with the latex/amonia/water it ended up the same consistency. between milk and cream.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> Could there be different strengths/purity of xantham gum.


This was a concern I had myself. When I get around to making mine I'll start at 2 tsp and work my way up to 2 tbsp and see where I end up. :thumbsup:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Also, as I said before, adding the school glue on top of the xantham gum thickened it up to the consistency of a milk shake. While I did not measure the amount I added since I did not know the amount of sealant I was adding it to, I would guess that it was equivalent to adding about 8 ounces of school glue to a regular mixture. I now have a good 6 months worth of sealant so I will continue experimenting with the xantham gum and the xantham gum plus school glue formulas. I would be real interested if someone would ditch the xantham gum and just use school glue as the thickener in a batch. My initial impression is that the +school glue mixture seals a little slower, but still works. We will see what the long term verdict is.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Remember, the xanthan gum is an emulsifier. Keeps stuff in suspension. May help keep the boogies from forming if settling is a factor. Nonetheless, it keeps stuff dispersed.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> I would be real interested if someone would ditch the xantham gum and just use school glue as the thickener in a batch.


My first mix did exactly that. I thought the glue would be a better additive to sealant so tried it.

Mix 16oz water, 16oz PG (lint already in PG), < 1oz ammonia
Mix in 16oz latex
Mix in silica gel
Mix in 24oz PVA (glue) to desired consistency

It was still barely thicker than water and I stopped adding glue at 24oz because I figured there had to be some point at which one portion of the mix could be too high.

On top of the fact that the it was too thin it also separated after sitting. See the video I posted: http://forums.mtbr.com/9266313-post1692.html

I added xantham gum and it thickened up but I added too much. I also noticed that with the glue in the mix when I added the xantham gum it got thicker and after sitting overnight it got even thicker, a delayed reaction. Like a super thick, globby pancake mix. I had to add 32oz of water to get a good consistency but at this point the mix is so bastardized and diluted I don't trust it.

After this first experiment it's my opinion that the xantham gum is NOT optional. The xantham gum suspends the silica gel (or other chunkulators) nicely wherceas with just the glue it settles in a matter of minutes.



eurotrash666 said:


> Remember, the xanthan gum is an emulsifier. Keeps stuff in suspension. May help keep the boogies from forming if settling is a factor. Nonetheless, it keeps stuff dispersed.


Yes. I'm not sure if it will alleviate some boogering problem although it stands to reason that the boogering is partly because of setting and then "sealling" what's settling. But it absolutely keeps everything mixed well.

Did you ever get your rubber crumbs? I'm getting antsy... thinking of buying them anyways. Can always send them back.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Rubber crumbs are all that remains... Slow boat was my guess, but they haven't charged my card, either. May be a service issue, but... how does one follow up with an Amazon vendor? Interestingly, in the very country that implemented the Häber-Bosch process to make it, ammonia is damn near illegal to sell. Luckily, I was able to find a chemical supplyroom that had a little bit. So it's the rubber crumbs, now. I have new tires to mount, hope it arrives.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Bad news: I just looked at my brew today and it is very thick. I immediately put it in a tire for testing, but I am thinking that the first batch, I did not actually dissolve the xantham gum in the water, but just chopped it up into small little chunks and it never dissolved. Looks like big0mike and ktm520 were right about 2 tablespoons of the xantham gum thickening things up too much. The good news is that PG dissolves it but the bad news is that we might need to use way less. The tire I filled up with it did seal instantly though so maybe this thick solution will still work, but my feeling is that ultimately we will want something thinner.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Hmmm... Glad my result of it thickening more over time was not an anomoly. Guess we'll have to mix it light and hope that if it's too thin adding more at a different stage in the process doesn't adversely affect the brew. I orderd my PG and crumbs so I'll be able to mix by the time I return from the wedding...

Sent from my Thunderbolt via Tapatalk...


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Try 2 teaspoons as originally suggested, perfect consistency.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

Has any one seen this?

orangeseal website :: Tubeless Tire Sealant

Tubeless 29er attacked by Guy With Nail Gun - YouTube


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Yea it is $15 for 8 ounces and probably doesn't include shipping and if you watch the video you use 4 ounces in a 29er tire. It is the most expensive sealant except for maybe Calfee Latex. Also, Stans wil seal at least as good.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

And I would suspect our latest mixes will seal equally well too. The older WSS1 sealed about half as fast as Stans which was plenty fast for me.


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## Piston pounder (Apr 8, 2012)

Sealed baby!!!!!, saved by the seal!.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

But can our brew do what the video shows?
I was thinking of it maybe mixed with the brew. 
Does anyone have a bad tire they would like to try the nail shot on & video it for all to see?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Hopefully by the end of the season, I will have a worn out tire to test. Also, you have to keep in mind that the tires in the video have fresh sealant in them. The real test is a tire with 6 month old sealant in it. I know the original WSS would seal a tire after 3 months because I ran over a piece of glass and I am still running that tire a year later.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I just noticed who wrote that. You can come shoot a video when I do it Werx!


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## AndreyI52 (Feb 4, 2009)

*Great thread.*

Subscribing to this very informative thread. Great work to all the pioneers of the home brew!:thumbsup:


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## WrecklessREX (Feb 25, 2011)

Finally was able to get my OSS mix done the other day, I had some trouble sourcing the xantham gum. After pulling my girlfriends tire to find a bugger half the size of my fist and then I got a slow leak while on the trail the same day, I stopped by Whole Foods on the way home from the trail and bought some. 

32oz water

16oz propylene glycol

1-3/4 TSP xantham gum

16oz mold builder w/ 1TBS ammonia premixed

4oz crushed silica gel (from packets)

Step 1
I started by mixing 16oz water with 16oz PG and then stirred in the xantham gum per yourdaguy's recommendation.

Step 2
Mix 1TBS ammonia in the mold builder container and shook, then poured the MB in with the water and PG and shook for a few minutes

Step 3
I then added 4oz cup of pre-crushed silica gel to the entire mixture and shook for a few more minutes.

Step 4
I separated the mixture in to 2 separate 32oz Gatorade bottles and added water to the 32oz bottles to get my desired consistency.

I had left a small amount in the larger jug and mixed a small amount of water to it since all the mix wasn't going to fit in the 2 32oz bottles. I then threw that in a freshly cleaned out Maxxis Ikon non EXO that has apparently been leaking out the old WSS since there was hardly anything left in it when I had just added some a few weeks ago, the threads are also showing pretty badly on the sidewalls.

The tire leaked down a few PSI overnight after I added the sealant but after taking it for a ride it has not leaked any air in the last 5 days.

Thanks eurotrash, yourdaguy, ktm, and mike for all your efforts, successes and failures.



If I install my left over WSS in my dads lawnmower tires do you guys think it would work as well as it does in our bike tires?


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

WrecklessREX said:


> If I install my left over WSS in my dads lawnmower tires do you guys think it would work as well as it does in our bike tires?


Good job. Glad it worked out for you. Yes, the sealant would work in lawn tractor tires, but you will need to adjust volume accordingly. They more than likely have more surface area than a mtb tire.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

I was surprised with the math on surface area. A 26x2.25 tire has about the same surface area as a 10x5.75 mower tire... for toroidal (donut-shaped) designs. Area = 4(pi^2)(wheel radius)(tire radius). Simply, if you go up 10% in any one dimension (like 26 to 29, or 2.0 to 2.2) just add 10% more sealant. If you do both, add 20% more.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

thats not a very big mower tire


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe not, but it is a useful formula for determining proportional surface area against the amount of sealant needed. It is a lot easier than deriving it from calculus.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

eurotrash666 said:


> Maybe not, but it is a useful formula for determining proportional surface area against the amount of sealant needed. It is a lot easier than deriving it from calculus.


I go by the depth of the puddle of sealant, by eyeball. If you pull the bead aside to check the sealant level, it's easy to adjust it by pouring straight from the jug. Saves a lot of hassle and I don't need any special scoop, bottle, or calculator to transfer the sealant.


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## Balor (Jan 21, 2011)

Thank you for your efforts! Eurotrash666, I think you just won internet award for most misleading username ever .
Anyways, about chunks (last thing that we need perfected). How about not fibers or chunks, but films/membranes (sorry if this is not correct term, English is not my first language)? If large enough, I think they should be better at plugging large holes, and you will not have to fill the tyre with huge chunks of... some other stuff.
I think small pieces of milled rags would do.
You'd have to break to bead to fill it initially, of course. I did not read ALL the thread from beginning to end, so if this idea was already tried and discarded - sorry.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Bad news on the school glue front. I opened one of the tires I did a few weeks ago with the mix that had xantham gum and school glue and it looked like some kind of curdled cheese. It was not really what I would call buggers since they were soft and slimy, but everything was clumped up and the remaining mix was very thick. I cleaned the tire out and thew the rest of that mix away. 

I would say that the school glue is not as useful as xantham gum and might be a dead end.


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## piccirilli (Feb 5, 2007)

I want to thank everyone for getting me started and improving my puncture proofing sealant. 
What works for me is mixing the basic recipe of latex/ammonia/PG/Slime. Not too complicated and can be purchased locally. I find adding chunulator, such as lint to the mix just clogs up my presta valves. So what I've decided is add my favorite chunkulator before sealing up the tire. Then pump the sealant through the valve stem using a syringe. Best of both worlds, because my chunks are large enough to seal just about any puncture. And perhaps over time, I might add more sealant via valve stem without needing more chunks. I came across some flexible plastic (millipede) insects at the general dollar store. Cut them up in 1/4" sizes. Why so big? Because on more than one occasion I had to bail on a ride due to a puncture which Stans could not seal. I also tested the lint trick along with slime which did not work for me either. The lint/slime would just blow through the puncture. This plastic was the best I've come across. It's easy to find, cheap, light weight, and re-usuable. I added a couple of tablespoons of the chopped up insects per tire. Works well for me. I can (slightly) hear the plastic chunks rolling around inside the tire, which sounds different than dried up sealant. So I will know when more sealant is needed to keep things fluid inside the tire. Of course you can chop up into small pieces. YMMV.


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## Balor (Jan 21, 2011)

Greetings, it's me again and my crazy ideas.
Check out this post of meltingfeather from "cheap chinese carbon rim" thread:

"FWIW I also lay a bead of the latex between tire & rim using a needle-less syringe on every tubeless set-up I do now. It makes every set-up floor-pump-first-time-every-time and, while I haven't done controlled testing, I've never burped a tire set up this way, even running ~20 psi under a 205-lb rider on ghetto set-ups in very rocky terrain."

While this ideas is good and certainly has a potential on it's own, I have a better (I suppose, at least) idea. eurotrash666 suggested painting tyres with diluted shoe goo to seal up pores. What about painting a thin layer of shoe good all over inner cavity over the gorilla/stans tape? It would have advantages of being permanent (but still removeable with some effort) 'rim strip', with much less of a weight penalty and extra friction (rubber on rubber!) preventing burps and seal that is much more airtight. I guess it might benefit even true UST rims/tyres... unless it would not adhere to aluminum/carbon and will blow off with the tyre. Painting it thick enough to be effective but not thick enough to prevent mounting tyres might be an issue too, but I think it is worth investigating. Heck, I'd try it myself, but it is not sold in Russia. Gotta order some from ebay, I guess.


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## frankenmike (May 2, 2009)

Update: just opened up my front tire for the first time in two years(I add more sealant through the valve), been running the sauce made with just latex, atv slime and water. No boogers, the inside of the tire coated with an even layer still moist. Quite impressed


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

frankenmike said:


> Update: just opened up my front tire for the first time in two years(I add more sealant through the valve), been running the sauce made with just latex, atv slime and water. No boogers, the inside of the tire coated with an even layer still moist. Quite impressed


I think that is probably the best of the WSS formulas, the atv Slime must be quite pure compared to auto engine antifreeze.

I haven't personally used the new XPG formula yet but I friends I've shared my new batch with say it's great. Some asked if it could be poured in with WSS and although I wasn't sure I of course said, "Sure, no problem!", thinking they would make good guinea pigs, as I will also have to convert to the XPG mix soon.


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## nbwallace (Oct 8, 2007)

*I mixed some up with interesting results*

I used the same recipe as WrecklessREX. I didn't use pure PG, I had some RV/marine anti freeze, which apparently has a lower PG concentration than 50% plus it had corrosion inhibitors. We can consider this a test.

Upon trying to get the xanthan gum to dissolve in 32 oz of the anti-freeze, there was some clumping. I spent a lot of time shaking the mixture and in the end there were some lumps but fairly small ones. I then added the mixture of latex and ammonia. Finally I added some fine model railroad grass and a lesser amount of course model railroad grass.

I didn't need to add much additional water as the mixture had about the same consistency as Stan's. Do you thinkI should still add some water or perhaps more than 32 oz of the anti-freeze?


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## WrecklessREX (Feb 25, 2011)

nbwallace, It should work fine with the RV AF, the main reason I used pure PG was to my mix as pure as possible to prevent buggers. I think you will find that the mixture will thicken a bit more after a few days and you can always add more water later to reset it if needed.


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## nbwallace (Oct 8, 2007)

*Thanks Wreckless*

I'll keep an eye on it. It does look pretty good. I don't have a test tire right no. But I should in the next few months.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Made te mixture from the first page. 

Question i have. Im noticing that it appears the anifreeze is being squeezed out around the bead. Not seein the light green colour from the main mix. Just a straight dark green. Beads still havent sealed up and its been a few days. Mind you the inferno rim has some tubless issues from what i read. 

And the holes in the side walls show a bit of the mix coming through but should it be wet always or shoild it dry up and turn the rubber like finish?

Mix was 1 part anti freeze
1 part latex
1part atv tubless slime
And 2 pards water. 
Might be to wattery with the 2 parts water

Pit one scoop about 3 oz by weight worth in the tire. Holds air but leaks about 4-5psi over night


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

machine4321 said:


> Im noticing that it appears the anifreeze is being squeezed out around the bead. Not seein the light green colour from the main mix. Just a straight dark green.


Normal for this mix.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ok cool. Thanks. 

So many mixes to pick from lol. Should i teak it to match another mix?


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

The latest mix I've been using (latex, pure PG, and xantham gum) is working really good so far and doesn't weep through the bead/sidewalls.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

ktm520 are you using any water in that?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

KTM's mix...


ktm said:


> ktm520
> 
> Part 1:
> 16 oz water
> ...


This seems to be the most successful of the OSS mixes so far so in my second attempt I decided to follow this.

Mixed water, ammonia, & xantham gum before I remembered someone else mentioning excellent results mixing the xantham gum with the PG instead of water. Mixed this portion and dumped it into a gallon paint can.

Added the Latex, mixed and shook. Noted that the consistency was thinner than I expected.

Added 16oz PG, mixed and shook. Noted that the consistency was already thinner than what I would like..

I opted NOT to add the additional 16oz of water or chunkulators yet. Gonna let it sit overnight to see if it changes consistency like some have experienced. I know the silica gel and hair/lint with thicken it slightly but it seems very thin right now.

I also noted that while shaking the mix in the paint can it got quite warm. The ammonia (I'm assuming) mixed with something else creating some kind of reaction causing the heat. Kept the paint can lid off in case this reaction continues and pressure builds.

I'll see tomorrow how the mix stands...


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

The heat you are experiencing is called heat of hydration. As water gets in and interacts with the ingredients, it releases a little heat and enters a lower energy state. This is the stabilizing effect of water, the energy lost needs to be put back in to drive the system the other direction. It is also part of why I think the solution is better with a little more water, rather than just PG. Water in this system isn't going to evaporate as readily as water alone, and it is necessary to keep our solution fully hydrated. I don't think cutting water because the solution is already the right consistency is very economical. Add more xanthan gum if that is what it takes, in the end all you'll end up with is a quart more sealant!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> The heat you are experiencing is called heat of hydration. As water gets in and interacts with the ingredients, it releases a little heat and enters a lower energy state. This is the stabilizing effect of water, the energy lost needs to be put back in to drive the system the other direction. It is also part of why I think the solution is better with a little more water, rather than just PG. Water in this system isn't going to evaporate as readily as water alone, and it is necessary to keep our solution fully hydrated. I don't think cutting water because the solution is already the right consistency is very economical. Add more xanthan gum if that is what it takes, in the end all you'll end up with is a quart more sealant!


Wasn't worried about economical. Just looking for the right consistency. That was more great info that helps.

Did you ever get your crumbs and try them?










I kept my hand in there so you could see some scale. I think it will work out just fine. Guess I'll go add some more water now. Chunks later... :thumbsup:


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

I got stiffed by Amazon on the chunks! I need a batch of sealant like yesterday. I think I'll go forward with silica gel for now. I am still pissed over getting my squashed gallon jug of PG in a $13 flat-rate box with a $35 handling fee- no MSDS, no packing material. It is amazing it didn't burst. I am getting impatient. 
On the heat of hydration thing, you ever notice how a really dry towel feels hot for a second when you hit your hands and face out of the shower (especially in the arid states)? That is the same effect. The ammonia may heat a little with the butadiene, but I don't know how to calculate the thermo of that hyperconjugation mechanism.


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## n2dsky (Jun 10, 2007)

*Experience and questions*

I just mixed up a small batch of the basic mix: 1 part mould builder, 2 parts slime, 2 parts anti-freeze.

I mounted the tire and it took a day or two for the bead to fully seat, but finally seemed to work well. Unfortunately, that tire was a bit too wide for my frame.

After about two weeks on the bike and maybe 100 miles of riding, I took the tire off and was a bit surprised at what I found. There was a large "booger" about 1/2 the size of a golf ball, plus a large amount of stringy latex mess along with a few oz's of sealant on the inside of the tire. The inside of the tire was coated with a thin film of latex, as well.

I was not expecting this.

Is there something else I can add to to keep the latex in solution?

Thanks,


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

n2dsky said:


> I just mixed up a small batch of the basic mix: 1 part mould builder, 2 parts slime, 2 parts anti-freeze.
> 
> I mounted the tire and it took a day or two for the bead to fully seat, but finally seemed to work well. Unfortunately, that tire was a bit too wide for my frame.
> 
> ...


Read about the new mixture. PG, water, latex, xanthum gum. Eurotrash666 has put plenty of thought and time into doing what you ask, and posting it here already. In less than 5 - 10 post back this has been discussed, you might have to go back 100 posts to get it all. Also look at posts by big0mike, yourdaguy, ktm520.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

n2dsky. as slocaus said use the new mix. I have had a similar problem with the old mix one time when I did not mix the ingredients in the correct order. Very fast formation of boogers.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Latest mix using ktm's recipe:






Open Source Sealant v1c from Michael Stevens on Vimeo.

As is it seems thin to me. I'll probably add some rubber crumb, silica gel, and hair/lint and see how much that thickens it up. I don't think it will be much so maybe with the extra chunkulators in it it will be the perfect consistency.

Also, I remember reading back many posts that the xantham gum dispersed nicely in the PG. From experience now it does not do "well" in water alone. That's a relative term and, of course, I have nothing to compare it to yet but there were still some tiny chunks of xantham.

Much better so far though...


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## brewrider (May 30, 2012)

Eurotrash, would there be any issues thinning Shoe Goo out with mineral spirits? I have both here at the house, and it would be nice to not go buy toulene.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

brewrider said:


> Eurotrash, would there be any issues thinning Shoe Goo out with mineral spirits? I have both here at the house, and it would be nice to not go buy toulene.


Mineral spirits should be heavy enough. Xylene would work, too. I tried acetone, which was too light, and looked up the MSDS to identify the solvent. Turned out to be toluene. I would avoid oily solvents, test a small bit of goo with what you've got, and consider what might attack your tire. If it evaporates slower than gasoline, think twice- wouldn't want to soften a new tire. Toluene will gas out, so it is your safest bet, but there are plenty of compatible solvents. If your solubility test works well, and your batch of mineral spirits is not oily and evaporates easily, you should be in good shape!


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## brewrider (May 30, 2012)

Thanks. These mineral spirits I have do leave a very light oily feel behind. It's not dry like acetone. I'd also say that it doesn't dry faster than gasoline. Toluene it is, I guess.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Finally added my chunks and went about setting up a set of Weirwolfs on my old bike. I think this is gonna work well because the first drawback is I plugged up my Stan's injector and even clogged the Presta valve. At least with this batch I'm gonna have to break a seal to fill. Which is gonna be tough with my dual ply, wire bead tires. I'm hoping I'll have a little better luck squirting it into my Schrader valves but we'll see.

I put in 1 cup of rubber crumb, 1 cup of silica gel, and two wads of dog hair lint about the size of my palm. It still appears plenty thin enough to slosh around but obviously thick enough to plug a hole.

The real test is coming up...


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Mike, are you going to kamikaze a cactus patch and post the test video?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

^^^ LMAO! 

"Hold my beer and watch this."


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> Mike, are you going to kamikaze a cactus patch and post the test video?


Not quite as daring... :nono:


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Open Source Sealant v1 Test 1 from Michael Stevens on Vimeo.

This mix was:

*Mix 16 oz water, 2 tsp xantham gum, 1 oz ammonia

Mix in 16 oz latex mold builder

Mix in 16 oz water & 16 oz pure PG

1 cup Rubber Crumb, 1 cup Silica Gel, 2 palm-sized wads of dog hair/lint separated into fingernail-sized sections. As small as I could get them.*

The consistency LOOKS perfect. But I think it may be just slightly too thick. When I ran across the board the first time I lost a LOT of air out of both tires. I knew something had to be wrong so I opened up both and found that there was no sealant sloshing around inside. There was a light coating of it along the insides of the tire but not much extra. My assumption is it's too thick and is simply coating the inside of the tire. A little thinner should alleviate that problem.

*Problem:* There's too much chunk in it. I can't use my Stan's Injector to put it in my tires. Plugs up both the injector as well as the Presta valve. When I get the Injector plugged I can hear the Silica Gel crunching around in the tube so I'm pretty sure the Silica Gel is the leading culprit. It's the only ingredient that does not have any give.

*Solution:* Next batch will use NO silica gel and I'm pretty sure I can get away with only 1/2 cup of Rubber Crumb and half as much dog hair/lint.

For now I'm gonna go get another jar of Latex and mix a second batch minus any and all chunkulators. Then mix both batches together. This should be the same as using half as much chunkulators although there's no way to get the Silica Gel out.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Double post.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

You have to be an engineer!? Engineering nerds are the best. Awesome test and documentation.  :thumbsup:


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Thanks for doing the video. Looks pretty successful. 

So is the latex the main sealing ingredient? I havent put holes in mine yet so i dont know how the original mix from the first page will seal up.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Latex is the main sealing ingredient, yes. The rubber crumb, silica gel, and dog hair/lint are meant to help with larger punctures which the nails definitely are not. Not sure what I could try to test that. Maybe a larger wood screw through the plywood? Something that might actually take some rubber out instead of just pushing a hole through it? And, not sure how far I wanna take the test although I haven't ridden that bike in almost two years so I'm not really worried about it or the tires.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Loved the video! Holding air is the key to the whole thing, and I say that's a pass for punctures. I think the puncture, the pinch flat, the tear, and the blown bead are what you'll encounter in the real world. A blown bead is either mounting, pressure, or manufacture/design. I have had a few sidewall tears in my day, but there ain't no sealant gonna fix that. The pinch flat is eliminated by going tubeless, so that leaves... the puncture! So if punctures seal, that is success. If the sealant lasts longer, that is an improvement. If plugs hold, chunkulation is optimized... If you run over a piece of 1/2" rebar stake and get a 1/2" hole, it isn't sealant that you're going to need. Nice work, thanks for the contribution, Mike!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> ,,,if punctures seal, that is success. If the sealant lasts longer, that is an improvement. If plugs hold, chunkulation is optimized...


The only question now is how LARGE a hole will this seal. As most people should realize there comes a point when you are simply asking too much of a sealant. Given that this mix plugs my injector (must be close to a 1/8" hole) I'm pretty sure I can seal a pretty good sized hole.


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## jimbo15471 (Jun 18, 2012)

This might be a stupid question but are you guys using tubeless tires and just tape..


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I refilled the tires on my Pitch last night. I run Outlaws (which I just put a HUGE dent in this morning) on it with a Schrader stem and oddly enough it had no issue with the sealant plugging the injector this time. That's a little strange and I'm trying to figure out why. When I was attempting to fill the old GF with Presta stems I was dipping the injector's tube into the sealant and pulling the plunger to fill the injector and it would plug just about every time. This time I used a funnel just to pour the sealant into the injector and had no issues.

In both cases I was attempting to fill the injector with the top layer of sealant so it's not like I was pulling from the bottom of the jar in either case. There must be something odd going on with the suction drawing the sealant in vs. simply pouring it in.

And since the Presta valves plugged in all but one injector full of sealant I have to assume that with this batch (which I've admitted has too much chunk in it) the Presta valve is simply too small.

I do still plan on thinning it a little, though. I couldn't find a 40% Michael's coupon that started earlier than tomorrow so I'll make another batch then mix them together then thin a little more. Should be the same recipe as my earlier post but I'll start by cutting it with another 8oz of water and increase it until I find what I like.

Happy Fourth Everyone!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

jimbo15471 said:


> This might be a stupid question but are you guys using tubeless tires and just tape..


Non UST rims, non UST tires. Gorilla tape around the rim 2-3x and mount.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Was having some work done on the bike and Ryan at DNA noticed the nice, new, huge dent in my rear rim. While inspecting it he said he FELT this in the tire:










Like I said in earlier posts I thought my batch was too thick. This may be problem because of the thickness? Also maybe an issue with mixing the first batch (that used glue instead of xantham gum) with the new batch using xantham gum? And probably why the sealant in my tires for that video test was gone after simply sealing the tires and letting 'em sit a night or two?

I just finished up a second batch and will be thinning it out with some more water. It'll be a pain in the ass with my wire bead tires but I think I'll have to start opening them up once a month both to check for these boogers and to check sealant levels to see how it's performing in this lovely Arizona heat.


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

Ok, I've been reading and searching this thread until my head is swimming. I've been wanting to try tubeless for a while now, but not because I have any problems with flats. I mainly want to try it to reduce some rotating weight and rolling resistance and see if it improves traction performance. I've started gathering the components to make some sealant (BTW, eBay appears to be a good source for pure PG and small amounts of xantham gum), but I started wondering something. Keep in mind I'm a complete noob when it comes to tubeless, so forgive me if this question shows my ignorance. If I don't need the puncture sealing benefits of the sauce and my rims are adequately sealed with tape, could I get away with just sealing the tires with thinned Shoe Goo and perhaps some sealant for the tire beads?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Mary371 said:


> Not trying to steal the thread, but does mold builder change his properties (not mixed) with time? Mine seems more solid, almost grannulating. Time for a new can?


Yes and yes. It dries with exposure to air, otherwise it would never be usable for its intended purposes or for sealing tires.


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## Rock dude (May 24, 2007)

Sorry but I haven't read all 74 pages. Has anyone tried adding saw dust to the mix?


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

So, found a nail in my tire today. Thought "cool, now i can see this stuff in action. " pulled the nail and nothing but air lol. So stuck the nail back in and rode home from work. Got home and pulled the tire to find that all of what I put in was usedmup on the schwalbe side walls. But the wierd part was the strip of sealant right dead center all the way around. I guess my mix thickened up (no boogers just to think to go far) The main problem was there just wasnt enough mix in the tire. 

Now my question is, im using the mix from thenfirst page. One part anti freeze 2parts water one part slime one part latex. I did tweak it with some more slime and latex as i was having a hard time sealing my rapid robs. I assume that the latex and slime made the mix to thick

I added some more mix and put a bit of water in it. It sealed the nail hole up right away after re inflating it. 

I like the simplicity of the wads mix as i have all the stuff. But for those thinking these mixes are to thin, theynare not lol. I have a retrea plant near my house that shaves all the truck tires before retreading them. Its a gold mine for rubber shavings. Going to add those to help with plugging


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## gaintanthemx29 (Jul 16, 2012)

just change the stans a few times every 2 or 3 months it not that hard


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Never said it wass hard. Its not stans. Its only been in for 3 weeks at best.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

Mine has been in my tires since June 9 - 2011. Front may drop 5lbs between rides( 3/4 days ). But the rear has started to drop 10/12lbs in the 3/4 days. Just started to the past 2 weeks. So not sure if it is the brew or a messed up rim.

My brew mix is:

1 part latex mbldr, 8oz
1 part slime plus, 8oz plus 4oz I have left over from past wrk
3 parts RV Anti. , 24oz
1 tbls modeler grass, 4 tbls for this mix

I am going to be trying the NEW one in the rear that has been talked of the past few mnths. It look like it needs tested. I am going to get some brew from member , yourdaguy. Test it in the rear & change out the front with my same stuff I run now. Just clean out & re-add


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

To answer my own question:



ric426 said:


> forgive me if this question shows my ignorance. If I don't need the puncture sealing benefits of the sauce and my rims are adequately sealed with tape, could I get away with just sealing the tires with thinned Shoe Goo and perhaps some sealant for the tire beads?


No, at least not with non-UST rims and tires.

Got the final ingredients for a batch of the latest sealant recipe today and mixed my first batch. So far I'm trying to decide if attempting to go tubeless with Gorilla Tape, cheap non-UST rims and non-UST tires (Kenda Karma sealed with thinned Shoe Goo) is an exercise in patience or futility. Lots of seepage around the beads on the first try, so I added some sealant in the tire and painted some around the beads. Is 3oz.in a 2.1 29" tire enough? I'll give it a few more tries before I try it with a split tube instead of the Gorilla Tape. I suspect I'd have better luck with one of my Specialized 2bliss tires, but I'm running those in front and don't have the confidence in using these rims to try tubeless in front yet.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

ric426 said:


> Is 3oz.in a 2.1 29" tire enough?


My opinion is that 4 oz is needed for a 26" tire, and 3 oz barely passes on a tire that is "conditioned" or already been sealed by running it with sealant previously. A new tire that weeps may take more effort. If the bead leaks, make sure it is seated all the way- put 10 psi in the tire and work the bead with your thumbs all the way around on both sides. Make sure things are clean and there are no obstructions. Beads usually seal with a small amount of initial leakage before the sealant takes over. The sealant wets the bead and lubes it so that it slips into the clincher hooks, and after some time at pressure the bead conforms to the contours of the wheel. If the bead is cloth-taped (non-UST) it takes a little bit of sealant to plug small air passages initially.


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

eurotrash666 said:


> My opinion is that 4 oz is needed for a 26" tire, and 3 oz barely passes on a tire that is "conditioned" or already been sealed by running it with sealant previously. A new tire that weeps may take more effort. If the bead leaks, make sure it is seated all the way- put 10 psi in the tire and work the bead with your thumbs all the way around on both sides. Make sure things are clean and there are no obstructions. Beads usually seal with a small amount of initial leakage before the sealant takes over. The sealant wets the bead and lubes it so that it slips into the clincher hooks, and after some time at pressure the bead conforms to the contours of the wheel. If the bead is cloth-taped (non-UST) it takes a little bit of sealant to plug small air passages initially.


First of all I want to add to the public thanks for sharing your wealth of chemistry knowledge!

I think I was fighting a combination of not enough sealant with no chunkulation, rough bead surface, combined with a less than ideal rim bead profile. I found the biggest problem though, is that the rims are drilled with a presta sized hole in the exposed surface, but an almost 9mm hole through the inner web. The inner hole even extends part way up the sides of the center channel, leaving a large, oddly shaped hole that has to be sealed. Even with a couple layers of Gorilla Tape on the rim, I just couldn't get a good seal at the stem with several different stems. I thought about placing a stem cut from an tube with a fair amount of flange, under the tape to get a good seal, but that would be a messy hassle if I ever had to put a regular tube in while out on the trail. Perhaps I would have eventually gotten an acceptable seal at the stem if I'd used some form of chunks in the brew, but I was saving that for the next phase of experiments. I just wouldn't have as much confidence if I had to rely on the chunks to even get a seal at the stem.

I finally gave up and tried a split 24" tube with the Kenda tire and it sealed up after several rounds of shaking and laying the wheel horizontally on each side. If I can find a stem that will seal better with the oversized holes in these rims, I'll give the Gorilla Tape another attempt when I'm ready to try going tubeless with one of the 2bliss tires in front. I suspect that until I can afford to build some wheels with decent tubeless ready rims, I'll have to stick with the split tube method for a good level of reliability.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

eurotrash666 said:


> My opinion is that 4 oz is needed for a 26" tire, and 3 oz barely passes on a tire that is "conditioned" or already been sealed by running it with sealant previously. A new tire that weeps may take more effort. If the bead leaks, make sure it is seated all the way- put 10 psi in the tire and work the bead with your thumbs all the way around on both sides. Make sure things are clean and there are no obstructions. Beads usually seal with a small amount of initial leakage before the sealant takes over. The sealant wets the bead and lubes it so that it slips into the clincher hooks, and after some time at pressure the bead conforms to the contours of the wheel. If the bead is cloth-taped (non-UST) it takes a little bit of sealant to plug small air passages initially.


This brings something else to mind. Stan's recommends soap to allow the beads to slide and seat fully, and I have always used a few drops of Dawn dish detergent in a water bottle of water, dribbled a squirt on the bead interface before hitting it with the compressor. It has worked well for me for a few years, and I have had good bead seal always, even on tough to seal tires.

So the question is, does adding some soap to the new mix of PG, xanthum, latex, water do something bad chemically that lessens the effectiveness of the brew, oh mix master?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I'm glad to report that sidewall weeping almost disappeared entirely since I topped off my 2.4 Ardents with the PGX mix. Had a slight puddle of WSS in one and I didn't have the time or running water to wash it out before adding the new. The PGX mix seems to work a little better, I check pressure every time I ride and the tires are losing half as much pressure as with the WSS, a half pump versus a whole pump stroke from a lezyne hv.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Slocaus, I used to use Dawn and water per Stan's instructions. I have switched to Windex Classic which is basically distilled water and ammonia with a little color. This seems to allow my sidewalls so seal faster too and since it consists of ingredients already in the mix, no harmful effects.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> Slocaus, I used to use Dawn and water per Stan's instructions. I have switched to Windex Classic which is basically distilled water and ammonia with a little color. This seems to allow my sidewalls so seal faster too and since it consists of ingredients already in the mix, no harmful effects.


Ah, great idea, never thought of that. Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

slocaus said:


> So the question is, does adding some soap to the new mix of PG, xanthum, latex, water do something bad chemically that lessens the effectiveness of the brew, oh mix master?


Soaping the bead is a very important step in getting a good seat without much struggle. Chemically, it is not perfect. Soap, by itself, is very much compatible with the sealant. The amphoteric lipid and glycerine byproduct components of soap are 100% compatible on their own. You won't find dish soap that doesn't have additives in it, like water softener salts, pH buffer salts, and viscosity modifiers. Aggressive soaps have trisodium phosphate, which is awesome for cleaning, but breaks the rule of avoiding adding excess ions to the solution. The process of making soap requires a strong base (although there is also an acid-catalyzed saponification route) that leaves salts in the finished product. So, soap is both okay and not okay.

Personally, I use whatever dish soap I have on hand because I think it is important in seating the bead. PG is probably just as good, so I'll try that next time.

Windex is a good idea, but I am not sure about the blue stuff... I don't think it is on the MSDS (I actually had to get an MSDS for Windex once), but I suspect copper sulfate is the color. A weak enough ammonia solution will grow bacteria, and copper is a cheap and convenient biocide. There isn't much in there, but there is a chance for it to be a booger-starter. Small amounts are probably okay, we have gone to an extreme to eliminate contaminant ions, which affords a little wiggle room, but I am hesitant to give it a gold star.

So, a cotton ball wet with PG wiped on the bead for initial inflation is my theoretically ideal solution.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

ric426 said:


> First of all I want to add to the public thanks for sharing your wealth of chemistry knowledge!
> 
> .... I found the biggest problem though, is that the rims are drilled with a presta sized hole in the exposed surface, but an almost 9mm hole through the inner web. The inner hole even extends part way up the sides of the center channel, leaving a large, oddly shaped hole that has to be sealed. Even with a couple layers of Gorilla Tape on the rim, I just couldn't get a good seal at the stem with several different stems.


Thanks, I enjoy it. Most of all, I am enjoying the enthusiasm within the community for experimentation and the stories that come with it!

What you describe is normal. Most rims have that type of hole. The best approach is to just buy a commercial UST valve stem. They have a big rubber "foot" on the inner side that fits that profile. It is cheap and feasible to cut a stem from a tube, and if you can get a seal, it is the ultimate DIY solution. Unfortunately, it doesn't work perfectly with all rims. What you need to watch out for when relying on sealant to seal the stem is the formation of a booger inside the double wall of your rim. I've seen this get so bad the wheel goes out of balance, and you'll never get all the crud out! Others have recommended gluing your ghetto stem into place with silicone RTV. Nothing wrong with that, just give it time to cure. I have Mavic stems in one set, Stan's stems in another(rubber band thingy, don't care for it, a split tube is the same), and I have some American Classic stems coming for another set that have a nice looking boot on the inside end. It's either/or, fuss with it for free or pay a little chump change for no fuss. Just be aware of the ramifications of letting sealant seep past a leaky valve stem.


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

gaintanthemx29 said:


> just change the stans a few times every 2 or 3 months it not that hard


Well... for those of us who ride a lot and have several wheel sets stans gets expensive.. Last time I made tubeless brew was a year ago, been used to seal 15+ tires over past year and still have over a liter thats good and being used.


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

eurotrash666 said:


> Thanks, I enjoy it. Most of all, I am enjoying the enthusiasm within the community for experimentation and the stories that come with it!
> 
> What you describe is normal. Most rims have that type of hole. The best approach is to just buy a commercial UST valve stem. They have a big rubber "foot" on the inner side that fits that profile.


Once again, you're right on the money. After fighting with a couple of non-tubeless tires and finally resorting to the split tube approach, I watched the the Stan's install video and he said to open up the inner hole to 3/8". I measured the inner hole on my rims and they're slightly less than that, so I went and bought a couple of the standard Stan's stems. Put down a couple layers of Gorilla tape, put the Stan's stem in and mounted a Specialized 2bliss tire without any sealant or lube and it sealed instantly! I deflated it and added 4oz. of sealant (the new recipe works really well), spread a little more on the beads and reinflated the tire. Virtually no seepage at either bead. I could have mounted it with a hand pump! It's amazing how much easier it is when you use the right stuff. :madman:
I'm going to replace the more troublesome rear tire (a used Maxxis Ikon that was very loose on the rim) with a new Nobby Nic TL. I'll seal it up with Shoe Goo before I mount it, but I expect it'll go a lot more smoothly with a good tire and valve stem.

For those of you using Gorilla Tape, I came up with a way to evenly slit it to any width and have nice clean edges. I spool off enough tape from the big roll for an overlapping wrap, then wind it onto a rubber sanding drum. I then chuck the drum in my drill press and with a utility knife resting on a block, I set the table height to put the blade where I want a cut. Fire up the press and slowly slide the tip of the blade into the spinning roll and it cuts it in a couple of seconds. I start with a cut at the bottom to even it up, then make cuts to get the widths I want and finish with a trimming cut at the top. With a wheel in my truing stand and the sanding drum in hand, I can feed the tape right from the drum onto the rim. I'm sure I'm not the first one to do it this way, but thought I'd pass it on. Makes for perfect rim tape widths as needed.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

WerxRacing said:


> Mine has been in my tires since June 9 - 2011. Front may drop 5lbs between rides( 3/4 days ). But the rear has started to drop 10/12lbs in the 3/4 days. Just started to the past 2 weeks. So not sure if it is the brew or a messed up rim.


Neither, your sealant is over a year old. What do you expect??? My tires usually stop hold air long before that, but there is no liquid left at that point anyway so it has no chance of sealing a puncture.



ric426 said:


> Is 3oz.in a 2.1 29" tire enough?


No, I never run any less than 4oz in a 29 tire. On freshly mounted tires, I usually come back and add an extra oz after the first ride because a lot of the latex goes to sealing the bead.

I haven't been getting the best results from my latest mix (OSS v1 I'm going to call it). It hasn't been weeping through the sidewalls of an older Racing Ralph, but it also hasn't done a very good job at sealing the sidewalls. This specific tire constantly looses air even after a couple extra shots of sealant and the soap test reveals tiny bubbles all over the sidewall. Most recently, I punctured a Renegade that had 4week old sealant in it and it didn't even try to seal the puncture. Didn't even puke any sealant out the hole. This is a puncture that should have sealed up.

After dismounting the tire, there was very little liquid inside and mostly a thick slimy coating on the tire. I have noted this before and even stated that I thought the mix was too thick. This pretty much proves my suspicions were correct.

My oss v1 was 1part latex, 1part pg, and 2 parts water. My next batch will be mixed with an additional part water. I've already watered down a pint of mix and used it when I remounted the Renegade. We'll see. This will be more in line with the ratios in WSS v1, which I had the best luck with previously.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Not so great news, but not that bad either. My latest batch sealed the rim interface instantly and well; but, I pulled a thorn out today and quite a bit of sealant leaked before it sealed (this sealant had been in the tire about 2 weeks). The tire went from 23 to 18 psi (I had just inflated it when I noticed the thorn. This batch is PG, RO water, Latex, ammonia, and a small amount of xantham gum and silica gel as chunculation. Probably would have sealed faster with rubber chunks.

To me this is not a huge disadvantage since I only have about one puncture per year and I would rather have longer lasting sealant than shorter lasting sealant that sealed faster. I could easily ride the tire with 18 psi to the trailhead and usually carry a pump anyway. Also, once it sealed, it sealed and I pumped it up to 30 psi and it held with no leaking. I then drained the tire and added an ounce of sealant and pumped it up with no leaks.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Okay, not the best news but this is progress nonetheless.

I have a few thoughts on refinements, and one on technique:
1.) Cut the xanthan gum quantity in half
2.) Increase the proportion of latex by reducing both water and PG
3.) More chunks. Discussion below.
4.) Instead of using soap to mount, swab some glycerine around the bead. Drugstore item.

On chunks: I was thinking about the puncture sealing performance and inspected a bit of leftover Stan's I had. Not sure if their chunks are cornmeal or not, the exact substance is irrelevant- the size and texture suggests that, and that size and texture works okay for dealing with some punctures. When you soak a spoon of cornmeal in a glass of water, it has a slight negative buoyancy. When settled, if you tilt the container, cornmeal moves freely. The negative with cornmeal is it will not help our sealant's life span. I'd like to see a more controlled, homogeneous substance than muffin mix. So we need to find something that mimics the texture, slightly negative buoyancy, and non-clumping motility of <ahem> cornmeal. :madman: This has me falling back to the silica gel idea, but it would have to be ground more finely. I also think the rubber crumbs should stay, that would make the best plug for the long-term. Does anybody have a suggestion?


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

We have a truck tire retread plant in my town. Before they can remount a new tread they have to grind the old one off. Theres tons and tons of rubber shavings left over. I think that would be the best for holes.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I think the more latex is the way to go. If you go back about 500 posts, I questioned the fact that the mixture was over 50% water. I think if we leave everything the same and double the latex (which I have been buying in 32 oz size anyway), we will have the best mixture ever. As for the xantham gum, I only used 1/4 of a scoop in my 13 ml scoop in this batch. In other words, almost none compared to the 3 full scoops I used before that was way too much. Doubling the latex will provide some thickening on its own. Also, the cost structure would change from around $9 a quart to around $10 per quart, but still way less than the $25 per quart of Stan's.

This time when mounting the tires, i just used water to lube the bead. I cleaned the tires and while they were still wet, I put them on the rim and hit them with the air. This might not work with new tires, since water is not that slippery; but these tires had already been on a while. When doing it this way, the beads sealed the fastest ever and there was nary a drop of white to wipe off the bead when laying the tires on their sides. I am considering a spray bottle with 70% RO water and 30% PG. It is not super slippery, but slippery enough and it should not affect the sealant in any way. What do you think of that idea?

Great job eurotrash!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> Okay, not the best news but this is progress nonetheless...


First question is what was your experience that makes you wanna rethink the mix?

On silica gel: How did you grind yours up? When I put mine in the can of water it took care of itself. Came out looking similar to the crumb yet it had the consistency of wet sand. It liked to clump together. Which, one would think is good. But, when I plugged my injector the very first time trying to get the mix in the Schrader valve it was mostly silica gel that was causing the problem. It really likes to clump. Good for sealing. Horrible for injecting through a stem.

I haven't had any issues with my mix, yet. No flats, no sidewall seepage, and very little if any bead leakage. And, as I'd like it, I'm not sure I've gotten any punctures. :thumbsup: Often times with the old mix I would see wet spots on the tire where the sealant had/was working. I've come to believe that that is an indicator that your sealant is mostly water and time to refill.

No ideas on what to use as an additional chunkulator. How about sand itself? It can be purchased in different sizes and thicknesses...


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## mdemm (Aug 4, 2010)

Needed to mix up a fresh batch of sealant. Was using the original WSS1 mixture. This time around I wanted to try something different. I mixed up a batch of OSS1. I've been using it now, going on 3-weeks. I am very pleased with the results of the OSS1. The WSS1 was constantly seeping through the side walls. Also every time I'd break the bead (to add some more fluid). I'd find one of the infamous buggers. The newest mixture seems to, all in all seal the sidewalls. I've also noticed time and again after completing my rides, there are multiple wet spots around the tire. Proof that the OSS is doing what its supposed to !!! THANKS AGAIN. Eurotrash and KTM for all your work !!!


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I ground my silica gel in a food processor.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> I think the more latex is the way to go. If you go back about 500 posts, I questioned the fact that the mixture was over 50% water. I think if we leave everything the same and double the latex (which I have been buying in 32 oz size anyway), we will have the best mixture ever. As for the xantham gum, I only used 1/4 of a scoop in my 13 ml scoop in this batch. In other words, almost none compared to the 3 full scoops I used before that was way too much. Doubling the latex will provide some thickening on its own. Also, the cost structure would change from around $9 a quart to around $10 per quart, but still way less than the $25 per quart of Stan's.
> 
> This time when mounting the tires, i just used water to lube the bead. I cleaned the tires and while they were still wet, I put them on the rim and hit them with the air. This might not work with new tires, since water is not that slippery; but these tires had already been on a while. When doing it this way, the beads sealed the fastest ever and there was nary a drop of white to wipe off the bead when laying the tires on their sides. I am considering a spray bottle with 70% RO water and 30% PG. It is not super slippery, but slippery enough and it should not affect the sealant in any way. What do you think of that idea?
> 
> Great job eurotrash!


I thought the same as you. Added more latex and slime only to find the mix to collect in the middle of the tire and to thick to spread out to cover the tread for punctures. After pulling a nail out and wondering why it wasnt sealing up. Added water to the next mix, cleaned out the old and the hole sealed right up.

Im using the mix from the first page.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

My reference was to the current recipe.


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## Qubo_2408 (Dec 31, 2011)

So I'm only 50 pages into the thread so far. I was at the store today and couldn't help myself and had to buy tubeless supplies since I have time for it tomorrow. Not having finished the thread yet I bought mold builder, slime, and anti freeze. Came home happened to look at the last page of this thread then discovered my ingrediantes may be out of date.

My question is, should I take my stuff back and try this new formula or just use what I have? If you think I should try the new stuff then why? And could you post the new formula and where to get supplies? (haven't finished thread yet and hoping to do this tomorrow) Also if it matters I don't care about wieght or anything like that if that's the benifit, just looking for the best way to go tubeless. Thanks for any help.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

The two versions of wade's formula have worked good for me and have lasted at least as long as stans. Debatable if they plugs holes as fast as stans. But they do plug holes. Version one is my favorite.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The latest formula is significantly better in my opinion but it is still evolving as far as the overall formulation. The mix I am going to try next (and as far as I know this is untried) is below. This mix basically doubles the amount of latex so if you used 16 ounces of latex, that is my current mix which works very well, but seals punctures a little slow.
32 oz latex
16 oz PG
26 oz RO Water or distilled water
2 tablespoons ammonia
1/2 teaspoon xantham gum
and then whatever chunkulator you want to try either rubber crumbles, silica gel, dryer lint, etc.

Dissolve the xantham gum in the PG in one container (separate container) then add 16 oz of the RO water. In the main container add the latex then the ammonia stir and then stir in the other 10 oz of RO water. Now blend in the ingredients from the other container with the PG mix. Add chunkulators and shake vigorously. Makes about 82 ounces.

It sounds complicated, but really isn't. I have a gallon plastic container with a large lid as the main container and use a 4 cup measuring jug for the other container. I put the PG, xantham gum, and water in the measuring container being sure to dissolve the xantham gum before mixing in the water. Then I mix the other stuff in the main container and then mix in the stuff in the measuring container and add the chunkulators.

The formula using slime worked and was way cheaper than Stan's, but suffered from the problem of green dots oozing out the sidewalls. I still have half a gallon of slime that I will probably never use after trying the new formula.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Qubo_2408 said:


> So I'm only 50 pages into the thread so far. I was at the store today and couldn't help myself and had to buy tubeless supplies since I have time for it tomorrow. Not having finished the thread yet I bought mold builder, slime, and anti freeze. Came home happened to look at the last page of this thread then discovered my ingrediantes may be out of date.
> 
> My question is, should I take my stuff back and try this new formula or just use what I have?


The old version works perfectly well so unless you really have a boner for trying the new version mix up what you have and enjoy being tubeless. Hell, give it away to your friends if you wanna use it and try the new mix. I've got almost a gallon of it and I'm toying with the idea of giving some of it to the locals here so we can get more feedback on the mix...


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## DirtyHank (Jul 2, 2012)

max_cat said:


> After running tubeless three years, I think I have tried all the different sealant types. My unscientific conclusion, if the main goal is flat protection, stan's is the best. Unfortunately, it dries up and thus builds up in the tire. To get at this problem, I have heard all kind of homemade combinations of the different tubeless product to get at a best brew of flat protection plus longevity. The latest sounded interesting superjuice with glitter. The theory is that the glitter provide better sealing protection. This sounded like little bit of a stretch to me, but at least if it came spewing out on you during a race, you would be looking good! Anybody want to throw out their experience in coming up with the "ultimate" homemade sealant brew for the rest of us to try?


After seeing 1,859 posts about going tubeless and then reading listing after listing in the tire exchange thread http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-components/new-29er-tire-swap-thread-761412.html trying to dump perfectly good tires with "Stan's residue or Homebrew Glue Failure" and the thought of extreme tire mount failure at speed, can't in my wildest imagination think anyone would think this is a good idea. I have never installed those heavy duty tubes, but I do use Stop Flat 2's (never felt like I added weight, never made my ride feelo like I had a bump). I understand it's a matter of personal choice but please explain the benefits of eliminating 200g or 7oz of tube against introducing gooey substances which it seems over time granulates and I'm guessing (not that looks really count) ends up making your wheels look like crap. I could see someday someone will come out with a tubeless Kevlar tire like sew-ups but until then, please convince me, I have an open mind, maybe I just haven't had enough flats?

I don't get it,

Hank


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

DirtyHank said:


> After seeing 1,859 posts about going tubeless and then reading listing after listing in the tire exchange thread http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-components/new-29er-tire-swap-thread-761412.html trying to dump perfectly good tires with "Stan's residue or Homebrew Glue Failure" and the thought of extreme tire mount failure at speed, can't in my wildest imagination think anyone would think this is a good idea.


I don't know why people are trading tires or why you think they are trading because of some deficiency of one tubeless system or another. Most serious riders are running tubeless, especially here in AZ where the terrain is extremely tough on tires. Many want to but, like me, are scared of the procedure. Hell, by your count we've got almost 1900 posts about mixing our own brew. Yeah, it's a little scary at first.

I've yet to hear of a tire failure that's directly caused by a tubeless setup. I'm sure it's happened but people have also won the lottery. I'd say the chances of an extreme tire mount failure, especially with my double ply, wire bead tires, is very small. Maybe some of the racers that are worried about weight and running really light tires have issues since the lighter tires probably flex much more.



DirtyHank said:


> I understand it's a matter of personal choice but please explain the benefits of eliminating 200g or 7oz of tube against introducing gooey substances which it seems over time granulates and I'm guessing (not that looks really count) ends up making your wheels look like crap. I could see someday someone will come out with a tubeless Kevlar tire like sew-ups but until then, please convince me, I have an open mind, maybe I just haven't had enough flats?


Yeah, you just haven't had enough flats. Me either. Even before I went tubeless but I haven't had one since, either. And my tires look fine. Some tire/rim combos can weep at the bead or in the sidewall. Depends on the tire but mine don't seep from either location.

I thought I'd get a bonus of more traction running lower pressure but I don't notice it. And when I drop much below 30 psi I bang the hell outta my rims. So I keep them around 30 psi and don't have a worry about flatting. Especially with this new chunky recipe.

If you're worried about it I'd suggest either doing it or not. Either decision must be followed by no longer worrying about it. Otherwise you'll still be worried. Over nothing.


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## DirtyHank (Jul 2, 2012)

Mike,

Thanks for the response. I was kind of expecting to get pounced on but I'm asking these questions from an honest, inquiring point of view (want to learn). Another point that you have brought up (and I'd like a general opinion here) is that I'm of the opinion that "wire bead" tires are better than the fold-up beads (Kevlar?) I told the guy from my LBS this and was quickly told that I was wrong (this was for my road bike). I guess my opinion that the wire bead tires seem to have a better tire to rim fit would be especially important where a tubless bond is critical to holding air.

Thanks,

Hank 

P.S. Looking at some of your Vimeo stuff like South Mountain, I could never do that, never even want to try. Still nursing a shoulder froma dumb 3-foot on dirt jump that I "irresponsibly" (as my wife called it) took a couple of weekends ago. That is really rocky tough terrain for sure. I like to soft stuff (hurts a lot less).


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^seems like the fit of a tire to the rim is based on the manufactures dimensions and not the materials. Wire beads can be tight or loose on different rims as can folding beads. 
I do notice more traction (especially in the rear) when running lower psi's. Not to mention comfort (especially on the rigid bike). 
Main benefit of tubeless for me is the amount of flats. I can go a whole year with out a trail side flat tubeless, whereas with tubes (and I always put some sort of sealant in those) I'd have a hard time going 5 rides with out a flat. YMMV


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

DirtyHank said:


> Another point that you have brought up (and I'd like a general opinion here) is that I'm of the opinion that "wire bead" tires are better than the fold-up beads (Kevlar?) I guess my opinion that the wire bead tires seem to have a better tire to rim fit would be especially important where a tubless bond is critical to holding air.


Theoretically, the wire bead may be better simply because it can't give as much as a non-wire bead. So if the tire mates perfectly with the rim then you're golden. As pointed out right above me everyone makes their tires & rims to their own specs so it's kinda a crap shoot. I wouldn't have chosen them but the deal I got on these tires was too good to pass up so I grabbed 'em. My next set, which should be coming shortly, will be Specialized Butcher & Clutch SX casing which is a folding bead. We'll see if their "1.5 ply" tires are as durable as the dual ply WTBs.



DirtyHank said:


> P.S. Looking at some of your Vimeo stuff like South Mountain, I could never do that, never even want to try. That is really rocky tough terrain for sure. I like to soft stuff (hurts a lot less).


I'd be lying if I said I didn't occasionally hurt after (or during) a ride. It's very tough and beats you up pretty good even when you actually stay on the bike but it's so much fun


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## Qubo_2408 (Dec 31, 2011)

hey thanks for the help guys. Think I'm just gonna mix what I got and go tubeless this weekend. Gonna go 1:latex, 1.5:slime, 2-3:anti freeze. How's that sound? 
Gonna go split tube I think cause I got some spare 20in tubes already and don't have any gorrilla tape, unless that is out dated as well? 
Also my friend wants to go tubeless on his road bike, I assume that has been done with success? And I would guess tape would be best for that? Thanks again


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Be very careful on a road bike. Unless you have a legit tubeless kit and tubeless tires, it is not recommended. Too easy to roll a tire off the bead.

As for the tires in the trade thread with tubeless residue; that means that the one trading the tires was not willing to clean the residue off before trading them. Stan's and all of our mixes come off the tire. No warranty on CafaeLatex coming off through.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

eurotrash666 said:


> Okay, not the best news but this is progress nonetheless.
> 
> I have a few thoughts on refinements, and one on technique:
> 1.) Cut the xanthan gum quantity in half
> ...


Although I won't be trying this, I'd be curious to see how thick this turns out after cutting the xantham in half. I'm sticking to my guns on that anything thicker (more viscous) than the current mix is the wrong way to go.



machine4321 said:


> I thought the same as you. Added more latex and slime only to find the mix to collect in the middle of the tire and to thick to spread out to cover the tread for punctures. After pulling a nail out and wondering why it wasnt sealing up. Added water to the next mix, cleaned out the old and the hole sealed right up.


I had the exact same experience with wss v2 and similar results with my version of oss v1. Even when I doubled the volume of sealant (wss v2) in the tire, it still did the same thing.



big0mike said:


> The old version works perfectly well so unless you really have a boner for trying the new version mix up what you have and enjoy being tubeless.


Good advice here ^.

I'm all for experimentation, but unless you are actually having problems with your tires (ie. punctures or cuts), you aren't going to learn anything. Just about anything with a little latex in it will seal the bead, and the lack of sidewall weeping is a small bonus, but this doesn't define the ultimate sealant imo. I want something that will stay in the tire for 3+months and still be able seal a small puncture. So far, oss v1 has failed that criteria remarkably in my experience. I'm not giving up though 

I've got to mix some sealant soon and I'm sticking with my plan to add more water, which will be close in ratio to wss v1 (see my last post or two).
</ahem>


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I wonder if using PG instead of antifreeze in the original formula is a practical way to go for non-experimenters. Wadester mentioned that he might try that as I recall. Not sure which WSS version but the formula would be:

16 oz PG
16 oz Slime
16 oz latex
32 oz RO water

I have always thought that the original WSS formula had a good viscosity and sealed well.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

bsieb that is an interesting idea and would certainly simplify things. I wonder if it would solve the pin hole weeping problem. Slime doesn't weep on its own and it might be the antifreeze that is causing the weeping in the WSS formula. Definitely worth trying.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

ktm520 said:


> Although I won't be trying this, I'd be curious to see how thick this turns out after cutting the xantham in half. I'm sticking to my guns on that anything thicker (more viscous) than the current mix is the wrong way to go.


Less xantham gum means thinner. More latex means thicker. May just be a wash as for viscosity and more latex can't be bad. Can it?



bsieb said:


> I wonder if using PG instead of antifreeze in the original formula is a practical way to go for non-experimenters. Wadester mentioned that he might try that as I recall. Not sure which WSS version but the formula would be:


My understanding was that the PG was an alternative to the antifreeze. It was a PURER additive that did the same thing. Can't recall what it does but it was supposed to do it better. Was it to keep the water from evaporating? That sounds right.

With that in mind using WSS v1/2 with PG instead of AF would certainly be a good idea.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

big0mike said:


> Less xantham gum means thinner. More latex means thicker. May just be a wash as for viscosity and more latex can't be bad. Can it?


Only if it makes the mix too thick. I don't think cutting the xantham in half will be enough to make up for doubling the latex. Maybe someone will prove me wrong though 

I have no idea what stops the weeping, but if slime alone doesn't weep, I'd say antifreeze could have something to do with it considering how many additives it has. I think Antifreeze has a surfactant additive that may contribute to the weeping. Only other thing it could be is the xantham.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Well, I got a little news...

I got a HUGE dent in my rear wheel a month or so ago. It's been holding air so I decided not to dick with it until it forced me to or until I got new tires. Took a header over the bars this morning and when I righted myself rode the remaining 50 yards to catch up with everyone. When I stopped the guy behind me noticed my rear tire was nearly flat. Found it was leaking right at the bead at that spot by the dent. Also leaking right at the bead at a different spot.

Apparently, when the bike hit the ground it must've contacted the wheel right at the dent breaking the bead and losing air as well as grinding dirt and sand into the bead. Then riding it the rest of the way on not enough air it did the same thing to another spot of the bead.

I pulled the tire partly off and tried to clean the bead with the tip of my glove and shaking & rolling the tire to reseal it to no avail. Wound up pulling the tire off and putting in a tube. While off I noticed there was a good coating of sealant on the inside of the tire. A little sporadic and didn't cover every inch but there were no boogers. Just a puddle of pink water. So, I'd run out of sealant. I'd just been thinking I needed to add more but forgot/didn't get around to it.

I did not, but should have, dated when I filled that tire. I probably posted about it but don't much feel like going back through this thread to find that specific post. I'm pretty sure it's between one and two months old and I always put in much more than I need. 6-8oz if I'm setting the bead of a new 2.5" tire. 4oz if I'm refilling a tire. I had refilled that tire inside of that 1-2 month window I had 4oz in there so it appears to not be lasting as long as hoped. 

No boogers, though. :thumbsup:

I'm gonna order a new set of tires, I am definitely due, and I'll refill them and keep track of the date to better gauge the sealants life span. Even if this means we only get 6-8 weeks out of a full tire I'm guessing at the worste it's still a wash since we make so much more sealant for substantially less.

Plus, if my super chunky version works as well as I think it will on larger punctures it still holds the title over Stan's.

Since I've got so much of it I'll have to experiment with different quantities in tires. Does 8oz last twice as long in a tire as 4oz? Guess I need to find out...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I have decided to drink the Kool-Aid and make some BAMFS (badd @ss muther @#[email protected]#$ sealant). So far, I have $25 in on Mold Builder (40% off coupon at Hobby Lobby), distilled water, slime, and RV antifreeze. Thinking I am going to use the basic WSS recipe of the 4 listed above at 1 part per item.

The more I read here, the more I see that you guys are trying hard for hole-plugging ability and not just making the tires air-tight for tubeless use. Is that the case?

I can't believe this - I was a nay-sayer. Stan's works great for me, lasts a long time (east coast), but it is expensive. I don't personally use much, but as a group, our crew goes through a bunch with tire change outs and replacements. Figured for $25 I have enough to cover everyone for a year or more!

Finally, I just read something that said all you need for bullet-proof sealant is:

Latex Mold Builder
Windshield washer fluid

Thoughts on this super simple receipe?


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^iMHO use the ingriedints you've got. Proven over time from a bunch of people. As listed above^^: it could work and it could work well who knows? 
The people on this forum who have proven themselves to be experimenters have taken a different rout. Read back.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> The more I read here, the more I see that you guys are trying hard for hole-plugging ability and not just making the tires air-tight for tubeless use. Is that the case?


Making the tire air tight for tubeless use is a given. Anything you put in there absolutely has to be able to seal your bead for holding air. So, that's not even a thought. The latex does that perfectly well.

So, most importantly is flat prevention, be it pinch flat from running lower pressures or holes from trail debri like goat heads, cholla thorns, sharp-ass-sidewall-tearing rocks or any other of the plethora of potentially damaging things we encounter. That's where all the added "chunkulators" come in. Silica gel, rubber crumb, modeling grass, dyer lint/dog hair. Take any and all of that and combine it with the sealing power of the latex and I should have a sealant good enough to seal just about any hole that is sealable.

Thirdly, is longevity. This is not as big an issue in different parts of the country & world. Here in AZ where our summer temperatures rarely drop below 90º and the highs regularly exceed 110º Stan's is very well known to evaporate or otherwise dry up rather quickly. With eurotrash's help we've been working on this new version that in theory is more stable with less sh|t in it that doesn't need to be there and chemicals that react less adversely to the other ingredients. I'm not the chemist, he is. But his theories sound good to me so I'm giving it a shot.



TiGeo said:


> I don't personally use much, but as a group, our crew goes through a bunch with tire change outs and replacements. Figured for $25 I have enough to cover everyone for a year or more!


Exactly. I don't use much myself. And, even if we can't find a mix that has a greater longevity than Stan's we certainly have succeeded in producing a product that works much better at a fraction of the cost.



TiGeo said:


> I just read something that said all you need for bullet-proof sealant is:
> 
> Latex Mold Builder
> Windshield washer fluid


I'm pretty sure that was the theory behind WSS. I'm guessing the Slime was added in as a chunkulator but what you've got will make plenty of good sealant that you and your boys can use. When it's gone do it again or check back here and maybe we'll be working on OSS v2


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

*Xanthan yum*

Put that extra Xanthan gum to good use.

Strawberry Milkshake

Ingredients:
300g strawberries
1 tbsp sugar
250ml milk
6 ice cubes
1g Xanthan gum

Instructions:
1. Put all the ingredients in a blender. Blend.


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

client_9 said:


> Put that extra Xanthan gum to good use.
> 
> Strawberry Milkshake


That sounds really tasty, but how quickly does it plug punctures?


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## rupps5 (Apr 9, 2010)

I guess he can time it and see how long it takes to come out :thumbsup:


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok, BAMFS is done. Easy. 1 part latex, 1 part slime, 1 part RV antifreeze, 1 part distilled water. I figured since the RV antifreeze is already watered down, that was enough water. Made up a small batch. Started with the latex, added the slime, then the antifreeze, then the water. Mixed with paint stirrer in a Ragu jar. Good consistency, maybe a little frothier and thicker than Stan's. I can always add more water. The Stan's in my front tire was dried out so I added 2 cups of BAMFS and we will see! I am using Specialized 2bliss tires on Roval rims so they are all tubeless ready.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^Thicker than stans? I'd worry about it drying out prematurely.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

For my next batch, I will use 2 parts water, that should do it.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> For my next batch, I will use 2 parts water, that should do it.


I use only 50/50 RVAF, no water. If you need dilution with that old mix, I'd recommend more AF not water.


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## BoostFab (Nov 26, 2008)

I just converted mine to tubeless, using the 1" Gorilla tape method, and WSS.v2 (1L, 2S, 2W)... I didn't have a chance to go find some PG AF. Used soapy water on the tire bead to inflate--it was pretty easy. I'm so glad I found this thread, and was successfully cancelled Stan's order on Amazon before they ship it.

< $25 for 64oz and a roll of 1" gorilla tape, not bad.

I will update on how it performs when I go ride this Sunday.

** the color in the picture is a bit off.


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## William_Cannon (May 5, 2009)

I'm about to finish up my second batch of WSS 1.0. What's the latest and greatest?


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## maxtheheathen (Feb 27, 2007)

So, a question regarding boogers,

If I'm reading right, these are the culprits that can accelerate latex coagulation into alien boogers.


•Low PH (carbonic acid from co2)
•Oxygen (Especially Ozone)
•Metallic Ions (Copper blue in wiper fluid?)


Also something in some antifreeze mixes, which really quickly cures the latex.

Anything else?


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

maxtheheathen said:


> So, a question regarding boogers,
> 
> If I'm reading right, these are the culprits that can accelerate latex coagulation into alien boogers.
> 
> ...


You've got the basic idea on booger formation. I'll just modify your three bullets:
- anions, like carbonate from carbonic acid from CO2
- radicals like ozone, normal at ground level due to sunshine and combustion
- metals because they have anionic conjugates and can affect redox potential

So it comes down to purity and cleanlieness, really. Avoid the rust-inhibiting antifreeze and don't use Parson's cleaner as your source of ammonia. Makes the scavenger hunt a little harder (ahem, Amazon.com) but pays off in stability.

On the same note, new club record for new tires mounted to Stan's booger: 14 days!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> - anions, like carbonate from carbonic acid from CO2
> - radicals like ozone, normal at ground level due to sunshine and combustion
> *- metals because they have anionic conjugates and can affect redox potential*


You sayin' that the metal of the rim itself has the potential for boogers? Seems like even with a set of 823s that are UST, and technically no tape needed, you would want to wrap 'em in tape anyways then?


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

No need, the aluminum is anodized and resistant. It's non-issue here.


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## maxtheheathen (Feb 27, 2007)

Thanks for dropping so much knowledge Eurotrash!


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## maxtheheathen (Feb 27, 2007)

Cloxxki said:


> I thought y'all might want to hear about this. I am positively baffled myself.
> 
> *ULTRA LONG TERM REVIEW* of innertube latex patching.
> 
> ...


I've had a similar experience with a similar WSS-type mix in a tube.

Big Dummy cargo bike with 2.3 Big Apples, a pretty good tire, but nothing is perfect.

I went ghetto tubeless on the front tire, and just added sealant to the rear tube.

I've noticed at least 3 punctures sealed in the front tire, I have no idea how many miles, but it's been enough to wear out three cassettes.

I've topped up the front tire regularly, but haven't touched the back.

I figured it had to be dry, but after digging through this thread and seeing this post I got curious.

I took the tube out today, and it still has a small amount of liquid sealant. I guess shelf life in a tube is drastically longer.


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## Energystar (Aug 20, 2012)

Thanks for this, I am totally broke and did a search for homemade fix a flat stuff and read this thread. Had a flat tire after 20 mile commute ride and tire would go flat very fast and be totally flat in a couple of hours. Since having limited funds I had to fudge on the ingredients and this my formula.

1. Find old latex paint sitting on curb for free, pretty easy this time of year since people are painting alot.
2. Water
3. Ground black pepper.

The paint I found had lots of variable chunks in it since it was old. I used an old air hose connector, took out the valve with some tweezers since I am running a tube at this time, and an old turkey baster to put 3 oz of this mix into the tire. After a week tire is still at 65psi! I am so happy that I took and put it in all the tires around here that had slow leaks as it stops slow leakdowns as well saving me tire of having to pump tires up to max pressure all the time. Then I also used it on a soccer ball that leaked all the time and a pvc boat that had a hole in it and it fixed those as well! Again thanks so much for the idea saved me from not being able to ride for a while.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Finally got the new Butcher SX and Clutch SX tires and had the time to do some maintenance on the tires.

The rear tire I had severe issues with a couple weeks prior and wound up putting a tube in so nothing to report there. When I cracked the front tire up I was shown plenty of pink inside. This tire held my first batch of OSS which I believe was too thick plus an extra 4oz of sealant added just a week prior. Inside was a boogery mess:










That entire 1/3 or 1/2 of the tire had a fairly thick latex coating stuck to the tire wall. The big booger on the left was floating around. I peeled off a big chunk of that section of sealant to the booger's right and wound up with two good-sized boogers:










I'm hoping that this is a result of the first batch that was too thick boogering up heavily and then the additional sealant boogering quickly on top of the boogers of the first batch. The liquid remaining in the tire was mostly water/PG with very little chunkulators floating around. There may have been some latex in the water but it was pretty thin and slimy like the PG. And since that new 4oz was added and gone or boogered in almost a week I'm a little worried.

So, those results aren't impressive but at least now I have a new set of tires with a fresh 8oz dosage of sealant in them and I can monitor the situation a little more easily. I plan on cracking them open regularly and checking progress. I may have to revisit my recipe which was very similar to others:



> • 16 oz water
> • 16 oz PG
> • 2 tsp xantham gum (1 tsp next time?)
> • 1 oz ammonia
> ...


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

I have yet to have a booger from the first page mix. Even plugged a few holes.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

big0mike, that is probably way too much xantham gum. I probably used a fourth of a teaspoon in the last batch.


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## maxtheheathen (Feb 27, 2007)

machine4321 said:


> I have yet to have a booger from the first page mix. Even plugged a few holes.


Come to think of it, the stuff in my tube for years didn't booger either.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> big0mike, that is probably way too much xantham gum. I probably used a fourth of a teaspoon in the last batch.


Yeah, that was our FIRST OSS recipe guess. The next batch will use less and likely more latex as someone else suggested.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

big0mike said:


> Making the tire air tight for tubeless use is a given. Anything you put in there absolutely has to be able to seal your bead for holding air. So, that's not even a thought. The latex does that perfectly well.
> 
> So, most importantly is flat prevention, be it pinch flat from running lower pressures or holes from trail debri like goat heads, cholla thorns, sharp-ass-sidewall-tearing rocks or any other of the plethora of potentially damaging things we encounter. That's where all the added "chunkulators" come in. Silica gel, rubber crumb, modeling grass, dyer lint/dog hair. Take any and all of that and combine it with the sealing power of the latex and I should have a sealant good enough to seal just about any hole that is sealable.
> 
> ...


Ok, I have crowned our new sealant "BAMFS" - Bad @ss Mutha @#[email protected]#$ Sealant. Works great! I have used it in several tires/set-ups with no issue. Actually had a buddy cut a tire with sealant dried up. Flatted, and ran a tube to get home. When I hooked it up with BAMFS, the hole leaked air for a few seconds and then the BAMFS filled it and it is holding air fine.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

big0mike said:


> The rear tire I had severe issues with a couple weeks prior and wound up putting a tube in so nothing to report there. When I cracked the front tire up I was shown plenty of pink inside. This tire held my first batch of OSS which I believe was too thick plus an extra 4oz of sealant added just a week prior. Inside was a boogery mess:
> 
> That entire 1/3 or 1/2 of the tire had a fairly thick latex coating stuck to the tire wall. The big booger on the left was floating around. I peeled off a big chunk of that section of sealant to the booger's right and wound up with two good-sized boogers:
> 
> ...


Could it have been the coloring? How is the remainder that you stored? That is disturbing stuff. How did your spike-strip test tire hold up?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> Could it have been the coloring? How is the remainder that you stored? That is disturbing stuff. How did your spike-strip test tire hold up?


I guess that's possible. There are no ingredients on the container so I can't tell you what's in it. The remainder in my jug is still the same consistency and will still jolt you awake from the latex smell when you open the jug and take a whiff. This weekend will be 3 weeks and I figured I'd crack 'em open after 4 to see what's going on with a fresh, true batch of sealant in the new tires.


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## wheretogo (Sep 1, 2012)

Hello fellow tubeless brewers, I have been following this thread for several months now and it's pretty obvious the main focus of the thread has veered towards natural latex concoctions. Thank you eurotrash666 very much for your chemical expertise, you certainly have moved things along. 

What I wish to propose, though, is to have alternative brews. I have abstained from posting before because I have been testing. I was new to tubeless about 5 months ago, since then I've sealed my tires with:

Air alone: Held the bead somewhat but didn't last once punctured.

Water and air: Just squirted through punctures and air escaped through bead slowly.

Watered down painter's latex caulk to the consistency of pancake batter and air: This brew was fairly successful, lasted about 3 months, it's demise was a slow leak, got me home but lost air overnight. I opened it up and found that most of the acrylic latex had been used up sealing the bead, the liquid that remained was very watery. There may be some merit to this brew but perhaps not long-term sealing.

Laundry starch: I'm completely new to this one, just put it in yesterday. Punctured the tire a couple times to test it and it is sealing. The only bad thing i can see is that it seals the air from escaping but not the water, it weeps for a little while, more testing will tell if this is a big deal. What i like most about this brew is that it is completely non-toxic. Tomorrow will be my first ride with this brew. This brew wasn't my idea, i borrowed it from a tractor forum.

Happy Trails.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Whats wrong with the latex? Good on you for trying new things but the latex seems to be the goto that works.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Bet the tractor forum doesn't have a chemist.


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## wheretogo (Sep 1, 2012)

I have not tried using latex yet, or any commercially available sealant for that matter. What I don't like about the latex based sealant is all the ingredients necessary to prepare it. I sure as hell would enjoy the scavenger hunt but it certainly isn't for everybody. What I'd like to find is an easier alternative, possibly off the shelf with very little modification so that anybody, anywhere can roll tubeless, albeit not as ideally as with latex sealant, for cheap.

My best regards.


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## wheretogo (Sep 1, 2012)

yourdaguy said:


> Bet the tractor forum doesn't have a chemist.


Almost certainly does not, it does have people who work with tractors day in/ day out though.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I am all for that, I just can't imagine that liquid starch is going to perform even close to the current formula.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wheretogo said:


> What I don't like about the latex based sealant is all the ingredients necessary to prepare it. I sure as hell would enjoy the scavenger hunt but it certainly isn't for everybody. What I'd like to find is an easier alternative, possibly off the shelf with very little modification so that anybody, anywhere can roll tubeless, albeit not as ideally as with latex sealant, for cheap.


If you don't like the "scavenger hunt" for ingredients (and I would assume the work involved in preparing the sealant) then it sounds like you want something like one of these:

Sealant Option 1

Sealant Option 2

Sealant Option 3

Easy! I've heard good things about all of them. Only downside is that they can get more expensive than a Home Brew. But, *when you don't like the hunt for ingredients and preparing the sealant you kinda have to pay someone else to do it*, right?


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Okay, I had to resort to extreme measures to get what I needed- clear ammonia. Luckily, a friend was happy to keester some tiny bottles onto an airplane... had to wash the smell off, but I was happy to make a quart of sealant for the brave smuggler.









Removed the ickies, got the usual mess. I don't think OSS will be much different.









As always, clean well. Yes, that's a 26" wheel. I can jump over 27" holes, so haven't seen the need to even try a 29er.









Here's a trick: Use glycerin and water on a cotton ball instead of the soapy water. The glycerin is slippery, compatible with our stuff, and lets the beads pop into the UST hooks at a much lower pressure.









And this is what we've got- note the consistency of the solution:









Recipe I used, per quart:
Disperse 1/8 tsp. xanthan gum in 2 tbs. PG
Add 2-3 tsp. ammonia
Mix in 1 cup 50/50 PG/deionized water
(shake well between the next steps)
Mix in 1 cup latex
Mix another 1 cup 50/50
Add 1 red scoop of rubber crumb
Top off quart container with deionized water (about a cup)

For a new set of tires, I started using 3 scoops of sealant a long time ago. It was to deal with weeping and the way Stan's latex would fall out of solution and stick to the walls, like in the old tire pic up top. I used 3 scoops with the big 2.40 tires, but experienced no weeping at all. I will find out in a couple months how that went, but I can say the slosh is about what I am used to with the "other" sealant. On my next batch, I will use 1/4 tsp xanthan gum. I'll get a few others started on OSS here, so that we can expand our test group!


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Great info!

The cotton ball PG water works. The last few times I mounted a tire I have been using a spray bottle of 50/50 RO water/PG and a small amount of amonia which is also slippery. It seems to work great as a lubricant and is made of ingredients already in the sealant. The cotton ball will use less but uses a cotton ball.


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

*Failed D.I.Y. chunkulator*

I've been using one of the latest recipes for a month now and thought it was time to take a look inside one of the tires. I used this version:

16 oz. mold maker
2 tbsp	ammonia
16 oz. propylene glycol
2 tsp. xanthan gum
32 oz. distilled water

What I found when I popped the bead on the first wheel I converted is that the sealant has remained about the same consistency, coated the inside of the tire nicely and no space boogers! However, I did find a new species that I'm calling a chunk booger:










I'm on a tight budget, so I tried making my own chunkulators by shredding a piece of hard rubber against a rotary rasp chucked in my drill press. It produced pieces ranging in size from a powder up to chunks about 1/16" and some shreds that were probably 1/8" to 1/4" long. I picked out the biggest stuff and dumped about 2 tablespoons in the mix.

Apparently I needed to pick out more of the bigger stuff. The tiny chunks are distributed nicely on the inside of the tire and in the remaining puddle of mix in the tire, but the shreds gathered into a glob about 1/2" x 1" that just rolled around inside.
I had noticed some clumps happening in another tire that I took off after a couple of rides, so I filtered the rest of that batch through a piece of fiberglass window screen to get as much of the rubber out as I could. I've since switched to model turf grass, but haven't popped the bead on the wheels I used that mix in yet.

After finding the turf grass on eBay for cheap, I've concluded that making your own chunkulator just isn't worth the time or trouble. Since I have very few problems with punctures or flats, so the chunkulators probably won't come into play. 
Of course, I probably just jinxed myself for the ride tomorrow and will rip the side out of a tire before I get out of the trailhead parking lot...


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Is that chunk booger slimy like a xanthan lump, or rubbery like latex? I went waaay down on the xanthan gum, 1/8 teaspoon to the quart. May not be needed after all...? I'll have to wait and see on this set of tires, but I may do a short cycle on my SS.


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

eurotrash666 said:


> Is that chunk booger slimy like a xanthan lump, or rubbery like latex? I went waaay down on the xanthan gum, 1/8 teaspoon to the quart. May not be needed after all...? I'll have to wait and see on this set of tires, but I may do a short cycle on my SS.


It was more slimy, I think mostly because of the sealant mixed in with the clump. There wasn't any sign of coagulated latex, I so think it was more of a mechanical booger than a chemical one. I think it was just a case of some longer shreds getting tangled into a clump that grew as it rolled around inside the tire and collected other long shreds.

I did my first batch right before the discussion about reducing the mount of xanthan gum started. I'll cut back on it for my next batch. Since I only have two sets of wheels I knew my sealant consumption would be low, so I've actually just done a half batch and have enough latex for a second batch with the latest formulation. I've got enough of the other ingredients to make a few gallons of sealant, so when the time comes I'll just need another 16oz jar of latex.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

eurotrash666 said:


> I went waaay down on the xanthan gum, 1/8 teaspoon to the quart. May not be needed after all...? I'll have to wait and see on this set of tires, but I may do a short cycle on my SS.


You know, I was just thinking about that. I was leaning toward adding another 8-16 oz of water to the mix I made, which used 1tsp/qt xantham ratio. I've got to mix another batch tonight and I think I will start off at 1/8tsp/qt instead of adding more water. That should make a big difference in the consistency, don't you think?


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Yeah, maybe its value is in its role as an emulsifier in small quantity, instead of as a thickener in a larger quantity. I won't know for sure until I get a puncture.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> Yeah, maybe its value is in its role as an emulsifier in small quantity, instead of as a thickener in a larger quantity.


That's what I'm thinking. When I give my jug a shake it's days before I even begin to notice any setting of ingredients.


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## skankingbiker (Jan 15, 2010)

I have had very good luck with the basic homemade tubeless recipe of latex mold builder, slime, wiper fluid, and water.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I used 2 teaspoons of XG in 48 oz of water/PG and it is very similar to original WSS in viscosity. Thats what, a little over a 1/2 tsp per quart? I have not experienced any boogering so far, doesn't seem to last any longer than WSS, no sidewall weeping is a big plus. 

I'm mixing a batch of PG, Slime, latex, 2 water, and running it in my rear tire to see how it compares. I find my rear tire requires more topping off than the front, that could be coincidence but I've observed that since going tubeless ~4 years ago.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

bsieb said:


> I find my rear tire requires more topping off than the front, that could be coincidence but I've observed that since going tubeless ~4 years ago.


Makes sense to me. The rear is often run higher pressure, more body weight percentage on it, gets banged into obstacles more since front can be lifted but rear not as well. All those factors contribute to pushing liquid out the sidewalls with the flexing of the tire. Basically the rear tire takes more abuse, gets dragged over things while the front steers around, and that increases the likelihood of forcing fluids out the sidewalls (assuming that most run tires that are not UST / TLR).


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Well I mixed up a batch of WSS with 1 PG, 1 Slime, 1 latex, 2 water, and a shot of ammonia. Nice to see the minty green color again. 

In the process I discovered that my jug of PG had not had the seal removed. Finally realized that I had added ammonia in place of PG to my first batch of OSS. (d'oh!) I thought it had been drying out rather quickly, didn't weep, in fact reminded me a lot of Stans. I subsequently added a proportional amount of PG to the mix and will be interested to see how much difference it makes.

Currently I'm running OSS in the front, WSS in the rear, just to observe any differences, maybe get a few more data points while I'm at it. I must mention that the boys at the bike house have finally taken a shine to the homebrew sealant, preferring it to all else at this point. A couple of them really didn't want to come to that conclusion but now ask for it, acknowledging that it does indeed work better for them. :thumbsup:


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## Pepperagge (Feb 25, 2004)

*Sepharose*



eurotrash666 said:


> So we need to find something that mimics the texture, slightly negative buoyancy, and non-clumping motility of <ahem> cornmeal. :madman: This has me falling back to the silica gel idea, but it would have to be ground more finely. I also think the rubber crumbs should stay, that would make the best plug for the long-term. Does anybody have a suggestion?


Ok, sorry for coming with suggestions late. When I packed one of my affinity LCMS-columns today I came to think about sepharose, the cross-linked version of agarose. The manufacturing is well controlled, it is almost homogeneous, relatively inert and it comes in many sizes for getting the desired degree of negative buoyancy. Drawback=price (for non-chemists).

Btw what pH-range is it in the current recipe?

Excellent thread!


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Pepperagge said:


> Btw what pH-range is it in the current recipe?
> 
> Excellent thread!


I think we can still use pKa, so less than 9.25 depending on concentration. What type of gel is it?


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## Pepperagge (Feb 25, 2004)

Sepharose is basically a cross-linked agarose bead used since the 1960's as column packing material, initially for size exclusion chromatography but lately also for other types of chromatography. It is robust and may have the properties that you are seeking.

I wonder what ingredients Joe No-flat has in his relatively new Eco solution. Supposedly it is without latex, ammonia and proteins.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Pepperagge said:


> I wonder what ingredients Joe No-flat has in his relatively new Eco solution. Supposedly it is without latex, ammonia and proteins.


Hmm, I think chromatography column packing in general would not be "inert" enough.

My first guess for Joe's would be corn starch or calcium silicate, based on that odd description. Those came up when I was searching sealant patents for tractor tires.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have not been happy with the silica gel and I ground it up pretty small in a food processor. For one thing, it is not neutrally buoyant and it is very hard to get a little on each shot of the Stans syringe. I found myself shaking opening the lid then trying to quickly fill up the syringe before it all sank. I used to get to the bottom of a batch and have way to much left in the jar such that it would clog up the syringe both filling and emptying. The original recipe that was too thick did seem to hold the silica gel up more, but the most recent thinner batches, it sunk like a rock.

I have made my last batch totally to the recipe except with no chunkulators at all. So far, I have it in one tire and there have been no issues. Around here the only flats I have ever had were either from thorns or slivers of glass. It seems to me that they will seal without chunkulators. This also helps solve the bugger problem since there is nothing to start the chunkulation reaction. I figured I could always add chunkulators later if this became a problem or even put them directly in the tire before the mixture. If someone figures out the perfect chunkulator, I will add it to my mix, but right now, I am going "Commando" on chunkulators.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> I have not been happy with the silica gel and I ground it up pretty small in a food processor. For one thing, it is not neutrally buoyant and it is very hard to get a little on each shot of the Stans syringe.


I found the same to be true with my first batch that didn't have any xantham gum in it. The second that had xantham gum (now we kinda think too much) keeps the rubber crumb in suspension nicely. I can see the little black spots still floating through the mixture every time I walk by it although I just looked at the bottom and there is some settling. I suspect the silica gel suspends well, too, but it's more difficult to see those little chunks.


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## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

So aside from less expensive--- are you guys seeing longer periods between having to refresh with home brew? How long are you thinking you can go between refreshing? Right now with stans im having to go in every month or so and refresh.. Im in SoCal and its been pretty hot.. Its not that big of a deal-- but it would be really cool to make some home brew and not have to go in and refresh other then 2 or 3 times a year.. Also-- is OSS seeming to be the better brew? Ive read pretty far back-- but it seems like the brew goes in one direction then does a quick turn into another direction.. So not sure which is the best way to go other then eurotrash666's latest concoction..


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## wheretogo (Sep 1, 2012)

Just to update on the laundry starch and water. 3 weeks on and still working, weeping no longer occurs after a puncture has been sealed. I do lose about 5 psi during the week going from about 30 to 25 psi. The sealant inside is still liquid and apparently the starch deposits on the bottom of the tire when not in motion because it becomes unbalanced after long periods of inactivity. This is not a problem, though because it readily mixes up again. All in all I'd say it's been working out alright till now. YMMV

Kind regards fellow brewers.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

SB Trails said:


> So aside from less expensive--- are you guys seeing longer periods between having to refresh with home brew? How long are you thinking you can go between refreshing? Right now with stans im having to go in every month or so and refresh.. Im in SoCal and its been pretty hot.. Its not that big of a deal-- but it would be really cool to make some home brew and not have to go in and refresh other then 2 or 3 times a year.. Also-- is OSS seeming to be the better brew? Ive read pretty far back-- but it seems like the brew goes in one direction then does a quick turn into another direction.. So not sure which is the best way to go other then eurotrash666's latest concoction..


I'm in so cal. I am using the original recipe WSS. I get about 6 months on mine. Usually i have to replace a tire first.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

ljracer said:


> I'm in so cal. I am using the original recipe WSS. I get about 6 months on mine. Usually i have to replace a tire first.


Not in Ca, but I had the similar experience with WSS v1. Its the best brew I've used to date. However, we are still tweaking on the latest OSS and I really think the potential is there. My first batch was, what is turning out to be, heavy on xantham gum and it has only been lasting 6-8 weeks before the tire all the sudden goes flat overnight. I will be mixing another batch here shortly closer in line with Euro's latest recipe (cut the xantham by 3/4).


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

eurotrash666 said:


> Recipe I'm using, per quart:
> Disperse 1/8-1/4 tsp. xanthan gum in 2 tbs. PG
> Add 2-3 tsp. ammonia
> Mix in 1 cup 50/50 PG/deionized water
> ...


So far so good, 400km on the Fat Alberts. A friend mounted some super-thin Rocket Rons (hardly a tire at all) with zero weep, so that is quite an achievement. So the three of us in my local experiment team are riding 3x/wk with 2 wheelsets each on that recipe. I check tire pressure every ride, and haven't had to adjust much like I used to.


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## when (May 9, 2012)

Used the following recipe on gorilla tape tubeless, 2 wraps, no weeping, easy seat, with a Weirwolf 2.1 wirebead on a Mavic Crossland with the stock Mavic yellow rim strip removed. 

Old Maxxis Hansventure with a chewed up bead refused to seat.

It instantly seals when you jam a thumbtack into the tire. Good enough for me, we'll see how long it lasts.

Eurotrash666's recipe:

1 cup latex mold builder ($10/pint)
1 cup nontoxic RV antifreeze ($5/gal)
1 cup water
1/2 cup dryer lint and cat hair (free)
1 tablespoon ammonia (practically free)
1/2 teaspoon tapioca starch (xanthan gun substitute, all I had lying around).

Total cost per gallon is about $40 compared to Stan's at $136 a gallon.


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## SB Trails (Sep 14, 2012)

Most of that stuff will be easy to get, but where can i get the food grade pg? Also what is the best way to chunk up a rubber eraser, blender?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

In the US I have found the best source for pure PG is veterinary supply houses. Apparently they feed it to animals to cure some disease/parasite. And since they feed it to animals, it has to be the pure chemical. I am getting gallons landed for about $26 or so.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

SB Trails said:


> Most of that stuff will be easy to get, but where can i get the food grade pg? Also what is the best way to chunk up a rubber eraser, blender?


Also try Amazon for PG and rubber crumb.


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

I found food grade PG on eBay for a decent price.


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## SupremeDork (Jun 17, 2011)

You guys might want to get in touch with this gentleman: Tubeless Wheel Windows. It's a tubeless fatbike wheel with transparent cutouts!


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## Shark (Feb 4, 2006)

I am using the version with 1 part mold builder, 1 part slime, and 3 parts washer fluid.

So far it has sealed up 6 (yes, six) pinky-sized sticks in my fatbike tires. Yesterday I had one again, just kept riding till the stick went through into the tire. Sealant sprayed a bit then sealed up. I jammed a bigger tapered stick into the hole, added more air, and finished my ride flat-free. Works awesome!


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## mestregroda (Sep 20, 2012)

nice!


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## dtheo (Sep 18, 2005)

*wss sucks*

last time, I got about 6 days then a giant booger. This is the 4th or 5th batch and maybe i had one decent result in one tire. the rest have all been the same - once i get a flat all i see is a big clump in the tire with barely any liquid left. sometimes i can go a month or two, but that's just because i haven't punctured - i think the sauce is boogered up way before that. i've been through one 16oz can of mold builder and this has been a major waste of time. i just bought 2 bottles of slime so i am going to keep on with it but i would gladly sell them if anyone's interested




ljracer said:


> I'm in so cal. I am using the original recipe WSS. I get about 6 months on mine. Usually i have to replace a tire first.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

dtheo you might be mixing in the wrong order. I can tell you that if I do things in the wrong order the boogers come fast.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

dtheo, just to clarify, you said "sauce." You referring to WSS?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

eurotrash666 said:


> dtheo, just to clarify, you said "sauce." You referring to WSS?


Or more specifically, what ingredients/recipe/mix order? We have learned a few things to not do.. maybe you learned a new one?


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

Hey guys

New to this thread. Old to mtn biking. I've tried tubeless 3 other times in the past couple years using Stanleys with Spesh and Kenda tires, and all 3 times failed. I stumbled on this thread and I thought I'd give it a go again. I'm riding 27mm wide 26" (gasp!) Roval Control Trail SL rims that are just over a year old with plenty 'o miles and dings and even a couple minor flat spots. I ride 2-3 times/week here in So Cal (Temecula) at about 10-20 miles per ride. 

I cut out a valve stem from a dead tube and added an o-ring to seat against the inside of the rim. I used the unadultered stock rim tape (it was still nicely covering the inside of the rim from edge to edge), and this morning I mounted a Spesh Butcher Control 2.3 2Bliss (I removed the "teets" on the bead to help make a better mating) that I've used for a few months now on the front. Three scoops (from powdered Gatorade) of EuroTrash's latest giz (modded slightly since I didn't have USP PG) below using antifreeze to lube the bead when mounting it. I then did the Stan s "shake and bake" slapping the goo around inside really well. There was/is NO seepage in the sidewalls and only 3 tiny dots on the tread, and I've only lost a couple lbs of air. I sprayed the valve stem with soapy water and it sealed perfectly. After sitting all day, the giz has not settled in the container, other than bubbles rising to the top. Will report more later, but so far I am thoroughly impressed w/ the giz, tires, and rims. Can't wait to ride her tomorrow night.

Dissolved 1/4 tsp. xanthan gum (Sprouts) in 2 TBS concentrated antifreeze (PG from Autozone)
Add 2 tsp. ammonia (grocery store)
Mix in 1 cup 50/50 PG/distilled water
(shake well between the next steps)
Mix in 1 cup liquid latex (Hobby Lobby variety)
Mix another 1 cup 50/50 PG/distilled water
Add 1 TBS fine modelers turf and 1 TBS coarse modelers turf (Hobby Lobby)
Top off quart container with distilled water (about a cup)

MM


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## drdre (Dec 15, 2005)

Hi, when you get the dried wss on your rims, it gets hard and won't come off. How do you guys remove it? sure is ugly. 

Rubbing alcohol doesn't do much and I'm a bit leery of going up to acetone for fear of the rim paint.

Andre


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

MntnMan said:


> Hey guys
> 
> New to this thread. Old to mtn biking. I've tried tubeless 3 other times in the past couple years using Stanleys with Spesh and Kenda tires, and all 3 times failed. I stumbled on this thread and I thought I'd give it a go again. I'm riding 27mm wide 26" (gasp!) Roval Control Trail SL rims that are just over a year old with plenty 'o miles and dings and even a couple minor flat spots. I ride 2-3 times/week here in So Cal (Temecula) at about 10-20 miles per ride.
> 
> ...


Very interested in updates on your success, especially at the 2-3 month point. To be honest its been the food grade pg that's kept me from jumping in with the new recipie (well that and proven success with version 1 of wss). If generic pg works well I'm in on the new version when my current batch runs out.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

drdre said:


> Hi, when you get the dried wss on your rims, it gets hard and won't come off. How do you guys remove it? sure is ugly.
> 
> Rubbing alcohol doesn't do much and I'm a bit leery of going up to acetone for fear of the rim paint.
> 
> Andre


Rims should be either anodized or powder coated, so no issue with acetone or MEK. If you get some color on your rag when using those solvents, it is probably just a bit of oxidized coating coming off. That said, hot soapy water and a bristle brush is my weapon of choice.



elwoodturner said:


> Very interested in updates on your success, especially at the 2-3 month point. To be honest its been the food grade pg that's kept me from jumping in with the new recipie (well that and proven success with version 1 of wss). If generic pg works well I'm in on the new version when my current batch runs out.


It doesn't need to be food grade or USP, but it should be free of salts like corrosion inhibitors. Any additives other than PG and water can react with the latex and booger up too soon. So keep the contaminants/additives _as low as reasonably attainable_ (or ALARA as the regulators say).


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

First of all I promise I have read in fact I pretty much read this whole posting but I'm still confuse on the ingredients, specially the mold builder stuff..

Is this the *Mold builder* you guys refer to..? if not can somebody post a link to the right stuff..?

thanks


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

patineto said:


> First of all I promise I have read in fact I pretty much read this whole posting but I'm still confuse on the ingredients, specially the mold builder stuff..
> 
> Is this the *Mold builder* you guys refer to..? if not can somebody post a link to the right stuff..?
> 
> thanks


Yes, that is the exact one I use, get it from Michaels Crafts here in CA.


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

slocaus said:


> Yes, that is the exact one I use, get it from Michaels Crafts here in CA.


Thanks we have a Michael's here too, Thanks, now to convert a sh^t load of wheels to tubeless, starting with my fatbike wheels.:thumbsup:


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## mdemm (Aug 4, 2010)

Thought I'd give an update regarding my experience in testing of the various brews. (OSS vs WSS). They have both worked well for me (using Stans as a comparison). The mixture with Slime and the ATV anti-freeze created the infamous boogers (but it worked well). Pretty much the same as when I used Stans. Next, I tried the OSS brew. Again, I was pleased with the results. Problem being. It seems to go from a liquid state to a solid in a very short period of time. Upon opening / checking the inside of the tire. The Latex in the OSS build has done its job in coating the inner rubber nicely... So here is my question. I need to mix up a fresh batch. Should I go with OSS or WSS ???


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

mdemm said:


> Thought I'd give an update regarding my experience in testing of the various brews. (OSS vs WSS). They have both worked well for me (using Stans as a comparison). The mixture with Slime and the ATV anti-freeze created the infamous boogers (but it worked well). Pretty much the same as when I used Stans. Next, I tried the OSS brew. Again, I was pleased with the results. Problem being. It seems to go from a liquid state to a solid in a very short period of time. Upon opening / checking the inside of the tire. The Latex in the OSS build has done its job in coating the inner rubber nicely... So here is my question. I need to mix up a fresh batch. Should I go with OSS or WSS ???


Please elaborate, for the sake of R&D, on the exact ingredients in your OSS mix? Did you use new tires, or wash the insides of the old tires out before mounting? I want to figure out what may have caused your "solid state" in a "short time." Also, do you use CO2?


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Another win for the wss mix from the first page. Noticed my work van tire was loosing air quick while i was on my way to a job. Happened to be near my house, so I let it air out and mad a small mix. Shot it in the valve stem with the tools provided with the slime bottle (used a peroxide bottle with the slim bottle cap and house). Air up the tire, moved the can back and forth a few times and it was sealed up in about 10 seconds. 

Held up fine for 50km and will check it today and see. 

Simple and it works.


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## mdemm (Aug 4, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> Please elaborate, for the sake of R&D, on the exact ingredients in your OSS mix? Did you use new tires, or wash the insides of the old tires out before mounting? I want to figure out what may have caused your "solid state" in a "short time." Also, do you use CO2?


The OSS mixture I used was 1- 16oz MB,1- 16oz PG, 1/4tsp XG, 3tsp Ammonia, 4oz fine Turf Grass and 16oz RO H20. This was used on new front tire (Hans Damph) and used rear tire (Schwalbe NN). Initially it sealed both front and rear tires without a hitch. For whatever reason the front looses a small amount of air. Not a big deal. Yesterday, the rear was completely flat. I broke the bead and poured in 4oz of the OSS. Aired up and dipped the rim in H20, and found out it was losing air around the valve stem and spoke nipples. I removed the rear tire and noticed the tape had pulled loose thus the reason of loosing air around the nipples. I removed the Stans tape, and installed 1" Gorilla tape on the rim. Next I removed the valve stem (American Classic) and filed down the sides so it would seat in the rim better. Then I drilled out a 00 faucet washer and SS washer to the OD of the valve stem (used on the exterior of the rim). I aired up the tire and dipped it in some H20. Still leaked through the stem. I tried my best to get the OSS to seal the leak, to no avail. Next I removed the nut that holds the valve stem in place and coated the threads with anti seize compound. Tightened the nut back down. Aired up, H20 tested. No leaks ! So I am thinking, the reason it was drying out was the fact of loosing air in the tire ? Again, Thank You All, in your assistance in making the home made brews. With that said. If you had your choice, and had to make another batch. Would you go OSS or WSS ???


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## dtheo (Sep 18, 2005)

*wss -*

Sorry I was not specific. I am using WSS v2 from post 504 - 
1 part mold builder latex
2 parts Slime tubeless sealant
2 parts water

I'm pretty sure I mixed in this order - mold builder, then slime, then water.
Just checked the remaining mix and it is boogered inside the container! First time that has happened.
so what is the correct order? I'm ready to give this one more try since i still have some slime. 
does the type of slime matter? mine says car/trailer tire sealant.

i sure would be happy if i could get 6 months in a tire. 
thanks for the help!

DT



wadester said:


> Or more specifically, what ingredients/recipe/mix order? We have learned a few things to not do.. maybe you learned a new one?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I recently mixed a batch of WSS V1+ (PG instead of antifreeze and a shot of ammonia). It's as good if not better than OSS, which I am also using. OSS front, WSS rear. :beer:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

bsieb; do you get any green dots on the sidewalls?


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## mdemm (Aug 4, 2010)

As I mentioned in my earlier post. My front tire (Hans Damph) has been leaking in various places on the side walls. Based on me removing and replacing the brew 3 or so weeks ago.
I wanted to open it up to see what was going on inside. The inside was coated well. But, much drier than I had expected. Again, I attributed this to the loss of air. And constant topping off of same. Added 2 scoops of OSS and 1 scoop of Anti-freeze and coated the side walls with same. Leaks have been sealed. My opinion at this point. Based on me using WSS and OSS is... I think the the mixture (WSS) using the Slime seems to last longer ( in a liquid state ). Although I think the OSS mixture may seal holes better, based on the amount of latex that has adhered to the rubber.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

yourdaguy said:


> bsieb; do you get any green dots on the sidewalls?


Some tiny pin head sized dots after a week of non-use on one 2nd season rear tire that was really bad before*. Nothing on the other two. Three front tires with OSS are dry too.

*Original WSS recipe more than a year old at time of use.


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## mucky (Dec 17, 2010)

So are you guys saying the original WSS is better than the new OSS?

Isn't there a version of the WSS that uses the RV Anti-freeze?

I have all the ingredients, other than the slime, to make each version. It seems that with pure PG, it's kind of expensive. I paid $22 for PG at Tractor Supply Co. and $16 for Latex at Michaels. I would much rather use RVAF, as opposed to PG, because of the cost.

when posted this recipe

_Eurotrash666's recipe:

1 cup latex mold builder ($10/pint)
1 cup nontoxic RV antifreeze ($5/gal)
1 cup water
1/2 cup dryer lint and cat hair (free)
1 tablespoon ammonia (practically free)
1/2 teaspoon tapioca starch (xanthan gun substitute, all I had lying around)._

and claims it from Eurotrash666, but euro's mix is different. Specifically the use of RVAF instead of the PG.
I looking for the most cost effective option. Living in Mi., I haven't had a real problem with the Stan's drying up quickly. It's not that hot in the summer, and when it is hot, it's not for very long.


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## TheWiseFool (Aug 21, 2012)

Guys...forgive me....reading through this entire thread is a task of epic proportions that I can't handle. Has anyone used any of these mixtures with carbon rims?

Is there a risk of damaging carbon rims by using these home made sealants?

I run the new Syncros XR1.0 29er carbon rims front and back and want to be sure before joining you genius bunch!


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

TheWiseFool said:


> Guys...forgive me....reading through this entire thread is a task of epic proportions that I can't handle. Has anyone used any of these mixtures with carbon rims?
> 
> Is there a risk of damaging carbon rims by using these home made sealants?
> 
> I run the new Syncros XR1.0 29er carbon rims front and back and want to be sure before joining you genius bunch!


Yes, there is nothing in these brews or stans that will damage a carbon rim.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

So this is six weeks. I'm still impressed. There is a ton of latex left in that tire. I didn't smell any ammonia at all, so I will add an additional tablespoon per quart and that'll help it last longer. I have another alibi, and that is I didn't follow my own advice and scrub the tire insides with soap to remove the parting agent from the new rubber. Adjusting those two things should stretch this stuff out a little longer. Also, the best sealing I've had- no pressure loss in a month.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

SO........ On July 28th yourdaguy put some of the NEW brew in my tires. I scotch brite Front & rear tires. Then he trued my wheel put the brew in. Today I got a flat after riding. I tanked the tire to find the leak. Took the tire off the rim to see a slice layer of brew all dried up.. I ran WSS 1.0 for about 9/10mnths & it still was liquid in the tire



















Now I put some WSS 1.0 I had left on the shelf. All good. But would still like to learn more about this newer brew.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Yes, It seems like it is drying out by 3 months. It seems to seal up initially very fast but dries up too fast. I am thinking like eurotrash666 that more ammonia in the initial mix would help but it seems like the vapor pressure is too high or something. Maybe we should totally get rid of the xantham gum. Any thoughts? This is why in my latest mix I eliminated chunculators. My batches before that after about 2 months the chunkulators were forming a booger. 

I hope we can solve this as this is much better for initial seal and no little green dots, but drying out in 3 months is like Stan's. At least it is cheaper than Stans.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

Also plain slime drys in about 3 mnths like Stans. Checking it once a mnth is a good idea or every other week. A pin I know. But this will tell people what is going on. Also the people checking should be a select group & from all around . Like one guy here Southern In. One in New Jersey or up that way. One Texas. You know this way we can see if temp & climate make a difference as well. Like on the WSS 1.0 & 2.0 brew. Some used different brew in different parts for a reason. But yes it does wrk great.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

yourdaguy said:


> At least it is cheaper than Stans.


This is one result we all can live with! 
It does seal well, and doesn't booger in the bottle. I dry-mounted six tires yesterday. I'm going to try injecting the sealant this time, and bumping up the ammonia by adding another tablespoon per quart (for a total of 3 tbsp).


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## thasingletrackmastah (Nov 15, 2005)

Hi there, can anybody explain what you mean with OSS, WSS, PG and so on.
I bought half al liter of Latex at a local art shop.
Diluted is with water, added some amonia and sawdust.
Works for now, but I like to make good use of your expirience.

I started to read the post in this topic, but can't seem to find the information I need to use your formula.

I use ghetto tubeless and normal tires, what formula will suit me most ?


Thanks,

Walter


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

thasingletrackmastah said:


> Hi there, can anybody explain what you mean with OSS, WSS, PG and so on.


Walter, the first half of the thread is variations on WSS (Wade's Secret Sauce), and starting right here OSS (Open-Source Sealant) came into being. There has been a lot of testing and variation, and a range of results. If you're keen to learn, that's a place to start.


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## thasingletrackmastah (Nov 15, 2005)

Thank you ! This is far more effective than browsing back and forth.
Very interesting reading.

You're from Germany ? I live in The netherlands.
I might have some questions for you, about the availability of some ingredients.
Right now it is time to prepare my bike fot tomorrows ride.
Ruhrsee und umgebung.


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## piccirilli (Feb 5, 2007)

What is the most effective chunkulator used in these recipes? I am finding whatever I use (dryer lint, pieces of plastic, chopped rubber) are not sealing the rock punctures I get. No, I'm not referring to huge gashes, these are 1/16 - 1/8" cuts. Is this a factor of not enough latex in my solution? Any recommendations?


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

piccirilli said:


> What is the most effective chunkulator used in these recipes? I am finding whatever I use (dryer lint, pieces of plastic, chopped rubber) are not sealing the rock punctures I get. No, I'm not referring to huge gashes, these are 1/16 - 1/8" cuts. Is this a factor of not enough latex in my solution? Any recommendations?


I like ATV Slime sealant. It's cheap and seals well.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

piccirilli said:


> What is the most effective chunkulator used in these recipes? I am finding whatever I use (dryer lint, pieces of plastic, chopped rubber) are not sealing the rock punctures I get. No, I'm not referring to huge gashes, these are 1/16 - 1/8" cuts. Is this a factor of not enough latex in my solution? Any recommendations?


I'm using Rubber Crumb and a Great Dane sheddings. I figure as easily as hair can clog a drain it's gotta be good for sealing little tiny holes, right? Not sure if either is doing the job but I haven't had any flats. And I need to check if I still have sealant...


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## pixel_nut (Jun 27, 2012)

big0mike said:


> I'm using Rubber Crumb and a Great Dane sheddings. I figure as easily as hair can clog a drain it's gotta be good for sealing little tiny holes, right? Not sure if either is doing the job but I haven't had any flats. And I need to check if I still have sealant...


Will my local crafts store stock Great Dane sheddings?


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## piccirilli (Feb 5, 2007)

I am already using slime in my mixture. The rubber crumbs or plastic bits don't work for me because they are not getting into the puncture area. Perhaps they are floating on top of the solution or just not small enough. Then again, this is the very reason why I stopped using Stans, as it was not sealing the punctures. Perhaps I need to increase the amount of lint/dog hair?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

50mm said:


> Will my local crafts store stock Great Dane sheddings?


Unlikely, you really gotta pay a high price for them. I've also got a baggie full of my ball hair from manscaping. Haven't used it yet but certainly as good as the Great Dane sheddings. Just not as plentiful.


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## nbwallace (Oct 8, 2007)

*I've been using model railroad grass.*

I put in a mix of fine and medium. It's very low density and still seems to go through my stan's injector. I think it was pretty cheap. But my good fortune is that I haven't had a puncture in a while, especially one large enough for chunkulators to come into play.

Fine Turf - Woodland Scenics - Model Layouts, Scenery, Buildings and Figures


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

big0mike said:


> I figure as easily as hair can clog a drain it's gotta be good for sealing little tiny holes, right?


This.

Mike, you should check a tire, I think you've been running OSS the longest. You ride fat tires and use 3 red scoops, right? Interested in how your ammonia proportions affected the longevity.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> This.
> 
> Mike, you should check a tire, I think you've been running OSS the longest. You ride fat tires and use 3 red scoops, right? Interested in how your ammonia proportions affected the longevity.


I start with 8oz (4 injectors full) when sealing a bead. Then add 4oz (2 injectors) when needed. I've not checked these tires in nearly 2 months so I do need to check them...


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Whoa- you run a beer can worth of sealant per carcass?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I like to fill it and forget it  My bike is heavy as hell so another pound ain't gonna kill me... :thumbsup:


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## StCarpenter (Dec 8, 2011)

Good info.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

I like to think the sealant mostly stays at the bottom of the tire, and so doesn't add to rotational weight as would adding weight to the wheels. 
I don't measure but just pop the bead and pour from the bottle. 
That's how I roll. (pun intended).


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## dtheo (Sep 18, 2005)

*wss mixing*

hi, there was mention of the mixing order being important for WSS, but I can't find what that is - can someone help?
1 part mold builder latex
2 parts Slime tubeless sealant
2 parts water

thanks,
DT


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## RidingMyTrail (Oct 7, 2012)

For those who are using Slime in their mix and are near a Tractor Supply 2 pack of 16 oz for 99 cents:

Slime Tubeless Sealant, 16 oz 2 Pack - 1030414 | Tractor Supply Company

That should get your costs way lower than any of the shelf solution.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

dtheo said:


> hi, there was mention of the mixing order being important for WSS, but I can't find what that is - can someone help?
> 1 part mold builder latex
> 2 parts Slime tubeless sealant
> 2 parts water The water has been replaced also with r/v anifreeze
> ...


I found that mold builder & RVAF was good to mix first. Then add the slime

This was my info on page 54. Is this what your asking?

ok so parts. or best way to say it is a oz.

1 oz Slime
1 oz MB
2 oz RVAF ____________________ This is more than enough for a 26er
----------------------------------------------
or

2 oz Slime
2 oz MB
4 oz RVAF ___________________ This is more than enough for a 29er
-------------------------------------------------------

4 oz Slime
4 oz MB
8 oz AF ___________________ This will doe 2 or 3 bikes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
also some go more on the RVAF
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like 3/4 oz on my 29er. So it also depends on you. some go 3 oz a wheel. Others go as much as 5oz
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The PARTs more or less is the way they are give you the chance to make you own batches to your needs


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

Regarding volume - I just like to have enough in the tire to where, after shaking the tire back and forth to coat the sidewalls, I can still hear a puddle sloshing around at the bottom of the tire. 

Normally ends up being 3-4oz depending on the tire.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

GTscoob that is what I put in my 29er. 3oz.....


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

I have not tried this but have heard that milk works well too. Whole milk has a higher fat content so has better clogging qualities then skim. Apprently this was first discovered in Kazakstan.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

Axis II said:


> I have not tried this but have heard that milk works well too. Whole milk has a higher fat content so has better clogging qualities then skim. Apprently this was first discovered in Kazakstan.


If you're using milk you need to make sure to mix it from thick to thin so you dont get boogers in the mix:
1 cup of greek yogurt
1 cup of cottage cheese for the chunkulator
2 cups of whole milk to get the mix watered down to the right consistency.

I've been meaning to try adding sprinkles for added chunks.

It'll start out white but you might get green seepage over time.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

GTscoob said:


> If you're using milk you need to make sure to mix it from thick to thin so you dont get boogers in the mix:
> 1 cup of greek yogurt
> 1 cup of cottage cheese for the chunkulator
> 2 cups of whole milk to get the mix watered down to the right consistency.
> ...


I like this idea! Here's my thought-
1 cup heavy cream
1 cup sugar
1/4 cup blended strawberries with juice
pack the rest of the tire with crushed ice and go for a ride

Bring some spoons for after-ride gatherings. In a pinch, you can use them as tire levers.


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## Axis II (May 10, 2004)

eurotrash666 said:


> I like this idea! Here's my thought-
> 1 cup heavy cream
> 1 cup sugar
> 1/4 cup blended strawberries with juice
> ...


*And for that post-ride drink one tire can be brewing this:*

Kumis is made by fermenting raw unpasteurized mare's milk over the course of hours or days, often while stirring or churning. (The physical agitation has similarities to making butter). During the fermentation, lactobacilli bacteria acidify the milk, and yeasts turn it into a carbonated and mildly alcoholic drink.

Traditionally, this fermentation took place in horse-hide containers, which might be left on the top of a yurt and turned over on occasion, or strapped to a saddle and joggled around over the course of a day's riding. Today, a wooden vat or plastic barrel may be used in place of the leather container.[12]

Other accounts from some cities in northern or western China have it that the skin, partially filled with mares' milk, is hung at the door of each home during the season for making such beverages, and passersby, who are familiar with the practice, give each such skin a good punch as they walk by, agitating the contents so they would turn into kumis rather than coagulate and spoil.

In modern controlled production, the initial fermentation takes two to five hours at a temperature of around 27 °C (81 °F); this may be followed by a cooler aging period.[13] The finished product contains between 0.7 and 2.5% alcohol.[14]

Kumis itself has a very low level of alcohol, comparable to small beer, the common drink of medieval Europe that also avoided the consumption of potentially contaminated water. Kumis can, however, be strengthened through freeze distillation, a technique Central Asian nomads are reported to have employed.[15] It can also be distilled into the spirit known as araka or arkhi.[16]


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## dtheo (Sep 18, 2005)

WerxRacing said:


> I found that mold builder & RVAF was good to mix first. Then add the slime
> 
> This was my info on page 54. Is this what your asking?


i'd like to stay with water unless it is proven to be a major cause of fail (ie-boogers). 
i am more interested about which order to mix the ingredients and things not to do, referring to these comments:

dtheo you might be mixing in the wrong order. I can tell you that if I do things in the wrong order the boogers come fast.

Or more specifically, what ingredients/recipe/mix order? We have learned a few things to not do.. maybe you learned a new one?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Thin to thick is the order to mix. Hey, that rhymes. :thumbsup:


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## bapski (Jul 27, 2012)

cmon guys, been following this thread now, i dont know which is the serious brew

shouldn't this be stickied?


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

bsieb said:


> Thin to thick is the order to mix. Hey, that rhymes. :thumbsup:


I've always mixed thick to thin. Mold builder first, stir it/whip it as much as possible to get the clumps smoothed out, then add the slime, then slowly stir in the RVAF a little at a time until the ratios are proper.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

+1 thick to thin (wss)


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

GTscoob said:


> I've always mixed thick to thin. Mold builder first, stir it/whip it as much as possible to get the clumps smoothed out, then add the slime, then slowly stir in the RVAF a little at a time until the ratios are proper.


Maybe that's your problem...  

Seriously, last batch of wss I just dumped all the stuff in the clear `90 oz bottle thin to thick and shook it til mixed throughly. I would think small amounts would mix best this way too, you are diluting all the ingredients before adding latex (and chunks).

Wadester?


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Hey guys... Been following this thread for a while, but still have a big question.

I have standard clincher double-wall rims and both wire bead and folding tires. The rims are WTB Dual-Duty freeride type and tires are WTB MotoRaptor 2.4 wire bead and also a Vredestein Bull Lock folding in 2.35. Is it possible to actually use those tires, which are not tubeless or tubeless-ready in a gheto tubeless conversion ?

I tried quickly for fun to simply mount both different tires on the rim, no tube and an hold presta valve with 6-8" of tube and blasted 60psi from a bigass compressor tank to see how would the tire actually seat on the rim... Well they both pretty much stay right in the middle of the rim, air flow going around them and no way I'm gonna get any sort of seal between the tire bead and rim unless I have a tube pushing and holding the tire against the rim... Do I need to buy tubeless-ready or UST tires in order to run tubeless on my standard clincher rims ? Or is this a way to get the tire to sit against the rim for only a few seconds while I'm airing up the wheel ?

Another issue I've run in was the sealing of the tire and rim, with a tube inside. Often I'll get bad pinch flat and I could really use the air-tightness of the tire bead against the rim and of course sealing the rim itself with tape first, so at least I can always get a lot more minutes to ride back home with the air not leaving the wheel ? I guess I'll have to find a way to put sealant or glue on the sidewalks of the tire, so when I inflate with a tube, it creates a permanent air seal between the tire and rim in case I get a pinch flat.

And my gf is gonna pick up a few of those 2 packs slime sealant at her local Tractor Supply hehe. For that price I'll be happy to try out a few settle with the sealant. I was also thinking I could fill up the tube with sealant already, so if it's gonna pinch flat again, at least the sealant might help minimizing the air loss, I mean to slow it down.


Yes, I walked a few km's back home today after a nice pinch. If I would had an air-tight seal for my sidewalls, I could have managed to ride back with air leaking slosh instead of walking the bike.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^may or may not work. I'm able to run tubeless with wire bead on my stans rim, (different beadlock profile). I've had the best luck seating stubborn combos by removing the valve core and blasting air with the "needle" chuck into the open valve. I would think at a minimum you'd have to tape the rim. good luck.


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## patineto (Oct 28, 2005)

First of all I have not even made my first batch and I'm already wondering about things.

my point is that the Xantham Gum been organic (not man made) may degrade over time, how about something inert and filling like *fiberglass Microballons..?* they weight nothing and then to form clusters on their own..

Again just wondering, a let the experts shime in..


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## drwx (Jun 4, 2011)

elwoodturner said:


> I like to think the sealant mostly stays at the bottom of the tire, and so doesn't add to rotational weight as would adding weight to the wheels.


I don't know if that's true. I would think that centrifugal force would sling it to the outside of the wheel and thin out the puddle so that it is fairly evenly dispersed around the tread side of the tire. It probably all stays in the bottom if you are going slow enough. I don't know the physics behind how fast the tire would have to be spinning to sling all of the sealant to the outside.

anyway, rotational weight really only matters when you are accelerating, so the puddle would definitely be in the bottom of the wheel when you are starting from a stop or speeding up from being slow.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

David C said:


> Hey guys... Been following this thread for a while, but still have a big question.
> 
> I have standard clincher double-wall rims and both wire bead and folding tires. The rims are WTB Dual-Duty freeride type and tires are WTB MotoRaptor 2.4 wire bead and also a Vredestein Bull Lock folding in 2.35. Is it possible to actually use those tires, which are not tubeless or tubeless-ready in a gheto tubeless conversion ?


My wheels are WTB Laserdisc. My tires are WTB Prowler XC. I did getto tubeless a mnth after I have the bike( June 2011 ) & still going with it. Only one time had a issue when I put 32lbs in the bike.. I leave is at 24.5 frnt & 26 rear.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

drwx said:


> I don't know if that's true. I would think that centrifugal force would sling it to the outside of the wheel and thin out the puddle so that it is fairly evenly dispersed around the tread side of the tire. It probably all stays in the bottom if you are going slow enough. I don't know the physics behind how fast the tire would have to be spinning to sling all of the sealant to the outside.
> 
> anyway, rotational weight really only matters when you are accelerating, so the puddle would definitely be in the bottom of the wheel when you are starting from a stop or speeding up from being slow.


I recall from discussions of dynabeads/dynamic tire balancing media, that (depending on tire rolling diamter) there is a speed below which the media (just like a liquid) will stay in the bottom of the tire. I think it's 10-15 mph for a motorcycle tire, which is close to mtb tires in size. The media will slowly catch up to the tire and start rotating with it - and it will seek the lowest location in the tire (which is how the dynamic balancing works). That makes a pool right in the center of the tire cross section.

However, that's all in a static smooth rolling situation! The real world bounces and shakes the pool, spreading it all over the place quickly. Try carrying an open cup of water attached to your handlebars and watch the surface - quite a bit of movement, and that's after all the action of the tire/suspension.

What's fun is when you hit the brakes! Everything goes whirling around madly as the tire slows down, but everything inside keeps going. Even more distribution going on.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The trail smacking the sealant around is also called dampening and is one of the many not well known reasons why tubelsss just seems to work and feel so much better.


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## acleese (Jan 25, 2008)

I hate to ask because I'm sure the answer lies somewhere in the depths of this thread but I must admit that I don't have the patience to wade through all 80 pages of it (I made it through 15 or so). So...

1) Is the WSS 1.0 (the most tried and true recipe) the one on the first page?
2) Which Slime is the best for for this application? There seem to be not only multiple container sizes but multiple varieties available even at auto parts stores. Walmart has many--one "for ATVs/mowers," one "for dirt bikes," "Auto," etc.

I have a suggestion: please update the second post on this thread with the most tried and true WSS recipe (if that's not already the one) and the heading "Wadester's Secret Sauce (WSS) 1.X" and with answers to frequently asked questions and perhaps put a "Last updated on {date}." That way you can just refer the majority of people with questions back to that very first post. In fact, you probably would't end up with so many reiterated questions after that.

This has been a highly informative thread and I'm pleased to have found it. Thank you all for putting in the time and effort!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

yourdaguy said:


> The trail smacking the sealant around is also called dampening and is one of the many not well known reasons why tubelsss just seems to work and feel so much better.


Sealant dampening... this has to be true. This will be my ace-in-the-hole for tube/tubeless discussions. Well done yourdaguy! :thumbsup:


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

acleese said:


> I hate to ask because I'm sure the answer lies somewhere in the depths of this thread but I must admit that I don't have the patience to wade through all 80 pages of it (I made it through 15 or so). So...
> 
> 1) Is the WSS 1.0 (the most tried and true recipe) the one on the first page?
> 2) Which Slime is the best for for this application? There seem to be not only multiple container sizes but multiple varieties available even at auto parts stores. Walmart has many--one "for ATVs/mowers," one "for dirt bikes," "Auto," etc.
> ...


1. Yes. I'm currently using food grade PG instead of cheap green antifreeze, more for safety than performance. I also add a shot (2-3 tablespoons) of clear household ammonia. Great sealant!

2. You want tubeless Slime. The bottle I got said it was recommended for tubeless bicycle tires as well. It's the type they had the most of. I use one 16 oz bottle per batch.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

bsieb said:


> Sealant dampening... this has to be true.


I hope you are being sarcastic


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

acleese said:


> 1) Is the WSS 1.0 (the most tried and true recipe) the one on the first page?


That recipe was based on research of the true pioneers, with a little consultation with professional chemists added. Still a very effective recipe - even the new OSS differs only in the purity of ingredients and specific proportions. Some newer chunkulators are in the fleet (glitter was not a win). Even adding additional ammonia is not a really new trick, as the pioneers used ammonia based windshield washer fluid (but most of that is now just soapy water).



acleese said:


> 2) Which Slime is the best for for this application? There seem to be not only multiple container sizes but multiple varieties available even at auto parts stores. Walmart has many--one "for ATVs/mowers," one "for dirt bikes," "Auto," etc.


As long as it's got ground up rubber chunks in it, it's good. Last time I got "tubeless". Now their website lists "tube sealant" and "tire sealant".



acleese said:


> I have a suggestion: please update the second post on this thread with the most tried and true WSS recipe (if that's not already the one) and the heading "Wadester's Secret Sauce (WSS) 1.X" and with answers to frequently asked questions and perhaps put a "Last updated on {date}." That way you can just refer the majority of people with questions back to that very first post. In fact, you probably would't end up with so many reiterated questions after that.


Not a bad suggestion, but I cannot edit that post - I tried, system won't let me. Been too long. We have talked a few times about 1)moving this to a more likely location 2)restarting it in a better forum with a synopsis of current progress. Meh. We're all just experimenting hobbyists. And what is the most best place for the info? Everybody seems to find it even in the 29er forum.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

ktm520 said:


> I hope you are being sarcastic


Yes, but not like you think, hence the confusion. 

Have you ever heard the term sealant dampening mentioned around tubeless bike tires? It's brilliant, even if it's effect is negligible, as I assume it is. Trailhead banter is my specialty...


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Gotcha. Nope never have heard it, but its definitely laughable. I'm sure you'll spark some interesting coversation and the new found misinformation will spread like wildflower.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^So you dispute the dampening effect of sealant? Really?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

ktm let's do a though experiment. Let's imagine a UST tire/wheel. It will seal without sealant. When we drive it along an uneven surface as the contact patch distorts is pushes the air around in the tire but air has very little mass and since it is a gas it is compressible. So the air is light/easy to move and when it bounces into something it transfers very little energy. Now the exact same tire, we put some liquid in it. When the contact patch of that tire is distorted by a rock the liquid is flung in all directions. This takes energy since liquid has weight. When that liquid hits the rim above or the sidewall it transfers energy because it has mass and liquids are relatively uncompressible. When you accelerate and decelerate the liquid you are converting some of the energy to heat and you are changing the sharpness and vector of the energy. All of this is to some extent "dampening" the impact.

Both tires above, same trail, the one with liquid will ride smoother. With a small amount of liquid, it won't be a lot smoother but smoother nonetheless and it would be measurable for sure.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> ktm let's do a though experiment. Let's imagine a UST tire/wheel. It will seal without sealant. When we drive it along an uneven surface as the contact patch distorts is pushes the air around in the tire but air has very little mass and since it is a gas it is compressible. So the air is light/easy to move and when it bounces into something it transfers very little energy. Now the exact same tire, we put some liquid in it. When the contact patch of that tire is distorted by a rock the liquid is flung in all directions. This takes energy since liquid has weight. When that liquid hits the rim above or the sidewall it transfers energy because it has mass and liquids are relatively uncompressible. When you accelerate and decelerate the liquid you are converting some of the energy to heat and you are changing the sharpness and vector of the energy. All of this is to some extent "dampening" the impact.
> 
> Both tires above, same trail, the one with liquid will ride smoother. With a small amount of liquid, it won't be a lot smoother but smoother nonetheless and it would be measurable for sure.


So should we all fill our tires/tube with water ?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

If you want maximum damping. Be sure to leave at least 50% air so the liquid can move around and dampen. Otherwise, liquid is not compressible and your tire would be more or less rock hard.


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## drwx (Jun 4, 2011)

David C said:


> So should we all fill our tires/tube with water ?


Have fun pedaling that heavy beast. 8)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

drwx said:


> Have fun pedaling that heavy beast. 8)
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


Hey, it's not like my bike wasn't already 40lbs and counting


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> Both tires above, same trail, the one with liquid will ride smoother. With a small amount of liquid, it won't be a lot smoother but smoother nonetheless and it would be measurable for sure.


"Measurable" needs to be clearly defined as well as a method of testing given. There are racers in MotoGP that can feel the difference .5# of air in their fork makes. I certainly couldn't and would bet the number of people on this forum that can could be counted on one hand, maybe two.

Anyone who WANTS to feel a difference is going to. I know I wouldn't feel a difference but I also don't like to ride trails where this difference would be felt. So, unless you have some way of actually measuring it beyond, "dude, this feels so much smoother," to me the point is moot.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

big0mike said:


> "Measurable" needs to be clearly defined as well as a method of testing given. There are racers in MotoGP that can feel the difference .5# of air in their fork makes. I certainly couldn't and would bet the number of people on this forum that can could be counted on one hand, maybe two.
> 
> Anyone who WANTS to feel a difference is going to. I know I wouldn't feel a difference but I also don't like to ride trails where this difference would be felt. So, unless you have some way of actually measuring it beyond, "dude, this feels so much smoother," to me the point is moot.


My own theory is that the sealant distributes itself evenly once the wheel is rolling. Because the sealant is in an even layer on the inside of the tire, it absorbs some of the impact by increasing the reactionary mass of the tread/sidewall without decreasing the flexibility of the tire. Seems pretty simple, but I'm just a farmer...


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Do I have the equipment to measure it-no. That doesn't mean it is not measurable. If you don't want to believe in it then don't believe in it. I don't need to argue with you about it. If you want to believe that sealant that has mass will provide no additional damping when the tire under it flexes then believe it. I know the earth revolves around the sun but I don't have a telescope to prove it either My road buddies didn't believe in low friction bearings and, low rolling resistance tires, and numerous aero tweaks either but after they noticed that when we hit the top of the hill at the same time and I always coasted down much faster they nicknamed me "Free Speed" and started listening to my advice. Originally they thought "one watt" for that who cares. But overall my improvements add up to 10 watts and that is a lot on a road ride.


At a certain speed let's say 10 mph the sealant would tend to distribute around the perimeter of the tire carcass but at lower speeds the sealant would be riding up the trailing part of the tire and at still lower speeds like 2 mph it would be more of less pooling around the back edge of the contact patch. So in a rock garden at 2 mph you would get maximum damping. Above 10 mph, you would still get a small amount of dampening. Between 2-10 you would get dampening because the wheel would in the process of deflecting and moving up shove the sealant that was riding up the back of the tire up and off the tire as well as some of it crashing down to a lower position on the carcass. Also, even at high speeds above 10 a large impact would cause the sealant to lose contact with the outer circumference of the tire and splash around giving more dampening on the really large hits. How much, I can't measure it but I am certain that it happens.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

I feel like the sidewall thickness and tire pressure has more to do with tire damping than the fluid (or gas) on the inside.

On a tubed tire you have normal thickness sidewalls plus the width of the tube - rides harsher

On a ghetto converted tire you have normal thickness sidewalls plus sealant which is thinner than a tube - rides better. Also lets you ride at lower PSI

On a UST tire you have thicker sidewalls but no innertube - probably same overall width as a normal tire + tube but can run at lower pressure so rides faster/smoother

Damn! If the compressibility of the sealant helps dampen shocks, I wonder what improvement I can get by running some old slow-rebound Maxxis Slow Reezay tires. The ultimate in damping performance - damping tires plus damping sealant :thumbsup:



yourdaguy said:


> If you want maximum damping. Be sure to leave at least 50% air so the liquid can move around and dampen. Otherwise, liquid is not compressible and your tire would be more or less rock hard.


I'm no scientist but I do know that any fluid (liquid or gas) can be compressed.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Gas is compressible. Liquid is basically not compressible (for purists compressible .001% or so). This info is available in any basic science textbook. In both liquids and solids the molecules are tightly packed and not compressible. In the gas state, the molecules float freely and can be compressed. 

It is not the compressibility of the liquid but the fact that it has mass and you are accelerating the mass and that uses energy that is giving us dampening inside a tire with sealant. Using energy to move sealant lessens the energy that is left to move the tire.

In a fluid shock absorber it is not compressing the oil that causes the dampening it is moving it through a small hole or a shim stack (which is a long narrow hole effectively) and since the oil is not compressible, the dampening in the shock is controlled by the size of the orifice or the stiffness of the shim stack, etc. In an air shock it is the compressibility of the air that replaces the spring but the oil is still doing basically all of the dampening.

You are correct in your analysis of the thickness/stiffness of sidewalls causing harsher ride because instead of the tire flexing to absorb the impact, the impact is transmitted to the fork If you have a small amount of sealant in the tire the impact would be slightly absorbed and less energy would be transferred to the fork. I am not claiming this effect is huge but I am certain it exists.

Just like you are speculating that a UST tire is similar to a regular tire with a tube (although I personally think a UST tire is slightly better all things equal-and a regular tire tubeless is even better) you are basing that on observations and deductions and facts of science; and I am also basing my points on observations, deductions, and facts of science. And I think we are both correct.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> Do I have the equipment to measure it-no. That doesn't mean it is not measurable. If you don't want to believe in it then don't believe in it.


I, personally, am not saying the dampening doesn't happen or that it's not measurable. I'm simply saying that for ME, I know there's no way I would be able to feel it. I suspect that the majority of riders wouldn't, either, and that whatever this changed feeling would be is so minimal that it's not worth worrying about.

Hell, I ride around with 8 oz of sealant in my tires. You'd think I'd notice some difference when that sealant has dried up, right? Never have yet...


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

Man this dampening discussion is getting tiresome.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Andy13 said:


> Man this dampening discussion is getting tiresome.


Use your browser BACK BUTTON, or delete key, or unsubscribe from the thread.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Andy13 said:


> Man this dampening discussion is getting tiresome.


Tire-some. Ha!

Don't forget the smiley next time.:nono:


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Andy13 said:


> Man this dampening discussion is getting awesome.


FTFY

I think I can tell if my sealant is low by how my tire sounds, like it gets a little more hollow/pingy sounding when it's dry. If it sounds different there is something going on.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

two-tired


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Was "tiresome" a pun?


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

it was accidental, although I'm glad it was turned into one.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

FYI, stopped by a Tractor Supply Co. today in Shelburne, VT, and the 16oz 2-pack Slime sealant advertised at $0.99 on their website was actually dated from their spring clearance sale, so unless you're lucky they still have a few packs left on their shelf, you won't get any. They did have a 16oz 2-pack LiquidTire sealant for $6 on clearance though. Didn't bought anything, as I'm not ready to mix yet, but for $1 it was worth a look 

Is there a way to seal the tire bead onto the rim, so when you run with a tube and you get a pinch flat, at least your tire can hold some air (I mean the air that was in the tube at first, now leaking out) till you either get to the trail head or just ride back home if you were not too far ? If I can seal the spoke holes and valve stem, I only need to put some sort of glue/sealing stuff onto the tire/rim bead so the pressure of the tube against the tire bead will keel it tight on the rim and will allow to kinda set it in place. I guess of course you should put a layer of the sealing stuff on the inside of the tire so the holes of the tire itself won't ruin everything.

Not ready to run tubeless yet at all, so just looking for temporary solutions meanwhile/experimenting


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

David C said:


> Is there a way to seal the tire bead onto the rim, so when you run with a tube and you get a pinch flat, at least your tire can hold some air
> 
> Not ready to run tubeless yet at all, so just looking for temporary solutions meanwhile/experimenting


On the contrary... if you are worried about pinch flats you ABSOLUTELY are ready to run tubeless. I know it's daunting and seems like there's a lot to it. Just do it and be done. You'll thank us.


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## Wardy1 (Nov 4, 2012)

interesting, i've been thinking about this


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## RidingMyTrail (Oct 7, 2012)

Just went tubeless, but I mostly cheated. Had CrossTrail rims, picked up a set of new tubeless ready Conti X-Kings and grabbed a bottle of Slime Pro. 10 minutes per wheel and I was done. Put the valve stems on the wheels and the Conti's are easy to put on without levers. Added 4oz of SP to each wheel and then inflated to about 60 psi. Reassuring pops as the bead seated on the wheel. Did have a couple of bead leaks though. Did the wheel waggle as seen in Stan's videos and those sealed nicely. Letting everything sit overnight and I'll see how the tires look in the morning.

Thanks to this thread for getting me motivated. Didn't go with a homemade solution because of the favorable Slime Pro reviews and the cost vs. time running around to get ingredients wasn't worth it for me.


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## Capt_Yellow (Nov 5, 2012)

eurotrash999- 
I think you mentioned increasing the ammonia next time to *3 tablespoons.*
So your recipe would then be:
Disperse 1/8-1/4 tsp. xanthan gum in 2 tbs. PG (propylene glycol?)
Add 3 tbs. ammonia
Mix in 1 cup 50/50 PG/deionized water
(shake well between the next steps)
Mix in 1 cup latex
Mix another 1 cup 50/50
Add 1 red scoop of rubber crumbs
Top off quart container with deionized water (about a cup)

Is that correct?


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Capt_Yellow said:


> eurotrash999-
> I think you mentioned increasing the ammonia next time to *3 tablespoons.*
> So your recipe would then be:
> Disperse 1/8-1/4 tsp. xanthan gum in 2 tbs. PG (propylene glycol?)
> ...


Yes this is correct. 1 tbsp = 15 mL, or a little less than 1/2 oz. So in a quart, we're talking about less than a standard shot glass of ammonia solution, which is dilute in DI water to begin with- so really only about 0.2% of the total sealant solution is actually ammonia (minus what's in the liquid latex). It should smell faint, and probably won't have any ammonia odor at all after spending some time in the tire. This is a booster to create a surplus of the stabilizing ion so the latex lasts a little longer in the tire.


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## .40AET (Jun 7, 2007)

Has anyone mixed the Slime Pro with Stans, or does the Slime Pro work well enough by itself?

Thanks,


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

MntnMan said:


> Spesh Butcher Control 2.3 2Bliss (I removed the "teets" on the bead to help make a better mating) that I've used for a few months now on the front. Three scoops (from powdered Gatorade) of EuroTrash's latest giz
> 
> Dissolved 1/4 tsp. xanthan gum (Sprouts) in 2 TBS concentrated antifreeze (PG from Autozone)
> Add 2 tsp. ammonia (grocery store)
> ...


A month later and all is well. No burps at 28F/30R, and we ride hard and do steep stuff/jumps/drops and fast bermed and sweeping turns. I lose far less air between rides than I did w/ tubes. Can still hear plenty of solution in the tire. Started w/ 4oz in each tire. I don't know if I've had a puncture since I haven't had a flat! 

I have no idea why I waited so long to do this. Big thanks to the key players in this thread.

MM


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

Aaargh... I'm trying to read this entire thread, and some poor soul has inserted a really bad redirect. There is no way to look at the entire page 7... the fricking site redirects to a garbage page httttttttp://zeroethics.com/mybiker/

I did some research, and the 'fault' is contained within posting #617, from user bonbonan. At first glance his response looks okay, but hidden in there is a code that does an autoredirect... Note: Not sure this was done deliberately.. This could be the result of a virus on the user's computer, or a copy/paste operation, or whatever. No blame/fault assessed here, no offense intended to that user....

Could the forum moderators delete the entire posting at 
htttttttttttp://forums.mtbr.com/7078319-post617.html ??

I'd sure like to read posts #601 thru 700 (less #617, of course)

If a moderator needs to understand the evil code, please private message (PM) me, I'll take you thru the details. I'm not going to post the thing here for obvious reasons...

--zip

I will also send an email with this info to [email protected]


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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

I used the following mix for the past year..

1 part molding latex
2 parts auto slime pg based
2 part rv antifreeze.

each part was usually a red stan's scoop so I would mix each batch fresh, enough for two tires. Initially it worked great and when I opened up the tire I had some small coagulation but nothing serious. The last two tires I removed to change had a coag the size of a chicken mcnugget...big. So I am wondering if the order of mix is important and how the mix is mixed...shaken or stirred. Should I start to add extra ammonia as was suggested to keep the latex in emulsion. Is the PVA a worthwhile addition and where can it be sourced? Despite the coag the sealant never failed and the bead was well seated in latex. 

I like the simplicity of the original formula. The auto sealant has the chunks rather than the sourcing and processing silica and rubber bits. I am hoping that the addition of a little ammonia and some PVA will make the mix better.

any thoughts.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

If you are talking about polyvinyl alcohol, I'd avoid it. It will form cross-links with other "stuff" in the containment environment, defeating the purpose. It may even "pull" anions like the proton-doning hydroxide conjugate and drop pH until the PVA is "consumed."

At least that's what comes to mind. I remember considering it before, maybe even thought it was a good idea, but some days I remember more than others... and today I remembered a demonstration of how PVA cross-links with borate anion (pretty cool, really), considered the mechanism, and there you have it.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

Snipe said:


> I used the following mix for the past year..
> 
> 1 part molding latex
> 2 parts auto slime pg based
> ...


less slime/more AF


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Snipe said:


> I like the simplicity of the original formula. The auto sealant has the chunks rather than the sourcing and processing silica and rubber bits. I am hoping that the addition of a little ammonia and some PVA will make the mix better.


When we first started developing this OSS everyone went the xantham gum route so I figured I tried the PVA route to see which worked out better. I found the PVA to be relatively useless. You would need an ungodly amount of it to provide any thickening whatsoever and it did absolutely nothing as an emulsifier to keep all the ingredients together. With the PVA everything separates fairly quickly. With the xantham gum I can shake the bottle and don't see any separation for hours or days and it takes very little of it to work as a thickener.

I'd skip the PVA. But, if you'd like I've got about 7/8 of a gallon of it I'll sell you real cheap... :thumbsup:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I also tried PVA and xantham gum combined and that was not successful either. If you really want to try it, I have 99% of a gallon left. Otherwise, I have a daughter that is a first grade teacher and I am going to donate it to her class (it is the same chemical as school glue).


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> I also tried PVA and xantham gum combined and that was not successful either. If you really want to try it, I have 99% of a gallon left. Otherwise, I have a daughter that is a first grade teacher and I am going to donate it to her class (it is the same chemical as school glue).


I actually got mine from a school supply store online. Been meaning to find a school to donate to but not sure what kind of looks I'd get walking into the school office with a partial gallon of glue to donate...


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## Snipe (Mar 6, 2005)

thanks for the quick info. 

the next batch will get a little ammonia. maybe a quarter teaspoon in a 5 stans scoop batch. not sure how many mls my batch size is. and see if that stops some of the latex coag. Maybe I should fully remove the tires and wash them out rather than just removing buggers and topping up. 

otherwise I like the consistency...somewhat like creamo. In some wheelsets I have been running stans in one wheel and homebrew in the other and I would have to say that they both do the same job equally well. If I could reduce the latex coag and source the molding latex a little cheaper and easier then I would be a very happy camper. Been buying the mold builder with a Michaels coupon when I am in the states. 

the humidity is always pretty high where I live so drying out is not that big an issue.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Sometimes, I feel that my mind is like a square wheel. Difficult to get started, and a bit bumpy til it gets up to speed - but then it's fine.

So, a while back I realized that the "big air" cans sold for tire inflators are now filled with propane. Bump.

I recall that we were discussing how CO2, when used in tire inflators, will promote coagulation of the latex in sealant. Bump.

Wow (whirring sound). What an idea - would the propane "big air" cans be suitable for inflation of sealant filled tires? Yo EuroTrash! What's the chemistry potential of propane vs CO2 with latex???


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Propane is totally okay! CO2 is unique on this planet, and has a very interesting hydrogeochemical role.  It dissolves in water, splits a water molecule to form carbonate anion, which bumps uglies with the ammonium cation and neutralizes it. Without the hyperconjugated ammonium ion, the butadiene is unstable and polymerizes in a chain reaction that only requires a radical to start. That could be an intermediate from any of the chemistry that occurs, particularly with metals. There are trace amounts of all kinds of stuff in the real world, so encountering a transitioning radical is possible for a molecule here or there... Propane has no such reaction, and will slowly oxidize. If enough oxygen is present, it will eventually break down to CO2, but there is less oxygen in your tube than there is surplus ammonium in a couple scoops of sealant, so using propane sounds perfectly legitimate to me.


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

*A couple of notes, a couple of questions:*

--I'm now hunting down my materials for a batch of the new Open Source Sealant (OSS) stuff. I've been attempting to purchase PURE Propylene Glycol (PG) locally and I'm finding not much. I know the stuff is used in the dairy business as an aid in the prevention of ketosis in dairy cattle (distributed by Agri-Labs). I've been searching all the farm supply stores in the area, nobody has a thing. No go with hardware stores I've spoken to either, sigh. I did manage to find it mixed with distilled water at cigar stores, apparently they use it as a humidity control medium. Not sure of the mix ratio, waiting for feedback from manufacturer. Its expensive from online retailers in the gallon bottles, but I found something on ebay that will work for me. Ordered today.

--I did spend a long time looking closely at the RV and Marine Anti Freeze (RV AF) solutions. I'm seeing the Peak brand red stuff. Weird info there. When I look at the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) from peakauto.com (6/4/2012) it says "product identity: Peak -50F Burst Ethanol RV & Marine Antifreeze, product code: PER0A3" ingredients: Ethanol <20%, all other components non-hazardous.... It looks like this new stuff is water and ethanol, without a single drop of Propylene Glycol.
However, When I look at the MSDS sheets from mscdirect.com (eff date: 7/10/2008) it says ingredients: Propylene Glycol % by weight >25% and <30%, additives <0.001% The older MSDS sheet does not have a title for product identity, nor does it list a product code. 
Ouch. At first glance (via the web), both bottles of Peak RV AF look EXACTLY the same. They are labeled the same, same manufacturer. One has a boiling point of 370 F , the other 185-200F. If somebody used the newer ethanol stuff in a tubeless mix would that be a good thing? Note: I haven't yet run down to the local autoparts store and look at the label on the bottle myself...

--Ideas on chunkulation. It would seem that any material destined to aid in gap sealing would have to be in uniform suspension. I really like the model railroad landscaping ground foam materials. Another thing that came to mind (which is readily available and very inexpensive) is flocking powder. Generally made of nylon, polyester or rayon, an individual strand of flock is 1/100 of a mm in diameter, with a constant length (generally between 0.25mm and 5mm) I've used this stuff lots in my previous engineering job. Any thoughts here on using flocking as a filler. Comes in lots of pretty colors.

--And while I'm waiting for my components to be delivered, without going too far off topic...

On these cost analyses... its seems like folks are purchasing stuff, trying this, tossing that out, or discovering that unused partial containers are no longer valid. Are we including these costs and the costs of overhead in our estimates? Am I the only person who is concerned with reducing excess clutter and stuff in my life? If I have to keep a shelf open in the garage for the ongoing experiment, there is a cost associated with that. Having the wifey do the long look at the unfinished projects hurts too. She's too cool to verbally complain, but I know what she is thinking.

Where I'm going is this.. I'm seeing the cost of manufactured tubeless sealer coming down a little. Can we take the lessons learned on the homebrew and apply them to factory made stuff for ultimate performance? Specifically, can we add just small bit of ammonia and water to dramatically improve the life of Stan's magic juice?

Oh.. and I do want to thank the efforts of the team in sharing their thoughts (Wade & Eurotrash & Mike with awesome nice dog but with the ugly avatar & all) on this stuff. Er... Mike, Halloween was so last month :^) Many thanks (and apologies for even thinking astray of the open source party line...) zip.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Eurotrash, how much time has passed since you mounted up your first tires with OSS? My first batch has been consistently drying up after 2months. I'm getting ready to mix another batch and I'm trying to decide if I'm going to go back to WSS v1 with pure PG or try your latest mix with greatly reduced xanthum.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Let's talk about drying up. I have been using the later versions of sauce with various modifications and initially, they are great. They seal the tires faster than Stan's and hold air better. Also, no pin hole leaks at all after the initial use for a particular tire and then only for a short time. But they seem to dry out sooner. I recently added some ammonia to my latest batch ( I can now brew batches in gallons) and put it in a tire and I am going to put it in 2 more this weekend. Hopefully, the extra ammonia will do the trick because I really like this mix except that it is lasting less than Stans. One advantage of this mix is that it seams to be fairly easy to clean off the tire.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

zipzit said:


> --I'm now hunting down my materials for a batch of the new Open Source Sealant (OSS) stuff. I've been attempting to purchase PURE Propylene Glycol (PG) locally and I'm finding not much.


Since I got my PG in fog juice form maybe check a theatrical supply store if you want to purchase locally. I got mine from Amazon.



zipzit said:


> --Ideas on chunkulation. Another thing that came to mind (which is readily available and very inexpensive) is flocking powder. Generally made of nylon, polyester or rayon, an individual strand of flock is 1/100 of a mm in diameter, with a constant length (generally between 0.25mm and 5mm) I've used this stuff lots in my previous engineering job. Any thoughts here on using flocking as a filler.


I like the idea although that diameter seems so negligible that I wonder on it's effectiveness. But, the dog hair I'm using in addition to the rubber crumb is likely pretty thin so I can't imagine it would fail completely at it. Plus it comes in colors


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

ktm520 said:


> Eurotrash, how much time has passed since you mounted up your first tires with OSS? My first batch has been consistently drying up after 2months. I'm getting ready to mix another batch and I'm trying to decide if I'm going to go back to WSS v1 with pure PG or try your latest mix with greatly reduced xanthum.


Recently, I swapped tires among three wheelsets. I broke down four wheels, each had three scoops of sealant (overkill). The sealant was six weeks old, and the evidence is here in this post. The chunk is about half rubber crumb, it binds pretty well. The latex is maybe a gram, so overall the chunk represents a very small portion of what was put in the tire; the remaining sealant can be seen in the photo. My guess is that it has an initial half-life over 90 days. Stan's is a total booger in 8 weeks, so I think the results are good.



yourdaguy said:


> Let's talk about drying up. I have been using the later versions of sauce with various modifications and initially, they are great. They seal the tires faster than Stan's and hold air better. Also, no pin hole leaks at all after the initial use for a particular tire and then only for a short time. But they seem to dry out sooner. I recently added some ammonia to my latest batch ( I can now brew batches in gallons) and put it in a tire and I am going to put it in 2 more this weekend. Hopefully, the extra ammonia will do the trick because I really like this mix except that it is lasting less than Stans. One advantage of this mix is that it seams to be fairly easy to clean off the tire.


I think I posted a link to an analysis of antifreeze contents a while back, maybe around the high 1300's in post history for this thread. I would make every effort not to use RV antifreeze if you are concerned about service life! It's easy to find, but it is also a shortcut where the results match the effort. Food-grade, USP, or "100%" propylene glycol is the only way to ensure that there are no other salts, colors, or additives that will mess up a perfectly good solution. The xanthan gum helps stuff stay in suspension without settling, and definitely enhances the pinhole sealing. I can't speak for the sealant made of sealant (slime), since I haven't tried it or know what is in it (MSDS only goes so far) but the components mold builder and propylene glycol have the potential to last much longer.

It is my opinion that WSS also can be doctored with some xanthan gum and ammonia to slow the drying process, and will perform better if antifreeze isn't used as the source of PG.


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

I am using the version using latex/slime/RV antifreeze and have chunks after awhile (sorry can't be more specific). From the posts I assume this may be due to impurities in the RV antifreeze. If I can locate pure PG, could I simply substitute the PG for the RV antifreeze? Would this, in theory, help eliminate chunks? Thanks for all the interesting discussions. andy


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Andy13 said:


> I am using the version using latex/slime/RV antifreeze and have chunks after awhile (sorry can't be more specific). From the posts I assume this may be due to impurities in the RV antifreeze. If I can locate pure PG, could I simply substitute the PG for the RV antifreeze? Would this, in theory, help eliminate chunks? Thanks for all the interesting discussions. andy


The post right above yours answers your question, from the master chemist hisbadself.


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## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

Thanks for the update Eurotrash.

Just mixed my second batch of OSS. Should be inline with Euro's latest mix, unless I dorked something up. This is basically an 1/8 of what I used for xantham and double the ammonia in my first batch. First tire it goes in will be an old version Racing Ralph which horribly weeped with WSS.

32oz water
16oz pure PG
16oz latex
1/4 tsp xantham gum
2oz amonia
2oz modelers grass


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> Mike, you should check a tire, I think you've been running OSS the longest. You ride fat tires and use 3 red scoops, right? Interested in how your ammonia proportions affected the longevity.


On 2012-08-20 I put new tires on my Outlaws and filled them with 8oz each of my OSS v1c. The idea was to check them every couple weeks to see how fast it disappears or boogers.

As I figured I would I put off checking the tires again and again until this afternoon. I hate maintenance stuff like this. Especially when you could be rolling the dice when breaking a bead on whether or not it seals back up.

Anyways, on 2012-11-10 I broke open my front tire. I run a 2.5" Specialized Clutch SX up front and a 2.5" Butcher SX in back. Both pretty big tires. Thus the reason for 8oz in each. That and the fact that I just admitted to being lazy and hating maintenance. If I could put a quart in and have it last the life of the tire I would, regardless of weight.

No boogers.

There was still a good coating of OSS along the tread of the tire. I wouldn't say it was enough to call it a "pool" but there was some in there. Possibly not enough to seal a hole but it wasn't completely dried after 3 months and the remainder was definitely NOT water. It was solution for sure.

And, keep in;mind, this is Arizona and up until even late September we were still living in 100º to 110º temperatures and next to no humidity which certainly helps the OSS disappear quicker than normal.

So, I'd say my batch is a pretty good success right now. Almost 3 months on 8oz of OSS ain't horrible. Especially considering the cost point vs. Stan's or other off the shelf sealant.

For those who haven't copied and pasted everyone's recipe into a text file like myself, this is what I'm using:



big0mike OSS v1c said:


> • 16 oz water
> • 16 oz PG
> • 2 tsp xantham gum (1 tsp next time?)
> • 1 oz ammonia
> ...


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## secateurs (Nov 15, 2012)

*Question*

I tried searching, but couldn't find out: What sort of ammonia do you use? Is it the cloudy ammonia you can buy for household cleaning? Would this cloudy ammonia work, even if it's not the best? Ammonia is hard to come by here in Australia.

Thanks for your help!


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Definitely not the cloudy stuff (Parson's, etc.). Anything other than the clear type is loaded with salts and scents. I couldn't find any in Germany, either- but supposedly the apothecary will sell small quantities (here it is called Salmiakgeist). I ended up finding a brave friend to smuggle some in on a plane! Got only a few oz, but that is enough for two or three gallons of sealant. I also found some available in the online classifieds, lab-grade 40%! That would require a fume hood, so I passed...

It is a critical ingredient, and it sucks that the "war on terror" has limited the availability of nitrogen compounds. Anyone want to build a table-top Häber-Bosch generator?


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

*Quick update*

OTB'd last weekend coming down a new trail at Mach .5. Rear tire landed on a rock breaking a spoke, which for some reason punctured the Gorilla tape, and well, pssssssssss. So in goes a tube trailside, but not before inspecting my homebrew. Still lots left after 45 days, however, with a white, very flimsy/airy booger the size of an almond.


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## bob_ostrom (Feb 5, 2008)

*colder usage*

sorry...


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## bob_ostrom (Feb 5, 2008)

*colder usage*

So I'm just considering going tubeless on my fattire bike. It seems like the new formulas are still in progress so I'll probably start with the original formula using latex and Slime and antifreeze.

I'm in Alaska and will be riding and racing this year at possibly -40F at least, maybe colder on occasion. I've seen a few posts mentioning ratings to -20F. I think it would work to add a little more antifreeze to the mix and get that rating down to -40F.

Has anyone done experiments yet at these temperatures? What happens when the mixture freezes? Does that mean the seal at the rim isn't going to hold? Will it turn into a frozen lump in the tire? Will the mixture separate and be no longer effective, like paint separates. I have a freezer for testing and will test these things, but has anyone done any testing yet?

I'm working through this thread of posts, so sorry if these questions have already been addressed somewhere and I missed it.

thanks...


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

Mntnman - Your mix looks pretty good after 45 days with only one small booger. You mentioned that you use concentrated antifreeze (PG from Autozone) Is this an autozone brand? or some other brand? I'm assuming that the "splash" brand I am using has additives that are boogering up my mix. Does anybody think my dawn soap that I use to lube the beads is to blame?
thanks in advance,
Andy


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

While I've used Stan's since it birth, I'm a rookie in terms of the science and "homebrew" aspect of tire sealant, and I've not read this entire thread. So, take what I have to say with that in mind.

Stan's would not seal a medium size puncture a few days ago. Disecting the problem suggests that most of the "chunks" had gelled into one big booger - leaving too few to seal the hole. I had tried to "air up" with hole down several times but no use - it would not seal.

I removed the booger, sliced it up into fine shards, and dumped them back into the tire. Aired up, hole down, and it instantly sealed. 

I pulled the tire back off and could see one of the shards plugged the hole. Aired back up well above riding pressures (and then also well below) and even with poking and prodding at the plug it did not leak.

Do you think those shards will re-booger? 

Would pre-emptively opening all my sealed tires and doing a slice and dice on all boogers alleviate alot of the non-sealing issues folks have (I've had several non-seal event over the years)? Perhaps an every 3 month slice and dice?

Thoughts?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Miker J said:


> I removed the booger, sliced it up into fine shards, and dumped them back into the tire. Aired up, hole down, and it instantly sealed.


I've not used Stan's but from what I've SEEN of the product there isn't much but latex in it to seal. I remember reading some time ago threads during some point where Stan's remade it's mixture and the chunkulators were significantly decreased.



Miker J said:


> Do you think those shards will re-booger?
> 
> Would pre-emptively opening all my sealed tires and doing a slice and dice on all boogers alleviate alot of the non-sealing issues folks have (I've had several non-seal event over the years)? Perhaps an every 3 month slice and dice?


Yes, they will rebooger. It's the nature of the beast. Anything that can seal a hole has the propensity for sealing itself to other like materials. That is one of the two main aspects of what we are trying to tackle with the OSS project. Less boogering and longer life in the tire.

Myself, I wouldn't have the patience to break apart the boogers and, to be perfectly honest, knowing what my rubber crumb looks like going in I know there is absolutely no way I could break them apart to even remotely close to their original size.

I pull the booger out and add more sealant. It's so cheap to make it's not worth the effort... :thumbsup:

With that said, if you had a method for breaking the boogers into smaller pieces it would alleviate a lot of the need to BUY chunkulators. Just keep breaking apart the boogers


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Here's an interesting data point - a way to see sealant action inside the tire:

This is a Surly Clown Shoe rim (100mm width) with lightening windows - and clear tape:










The coating is just from rolling around by hand - not a ride.

Tubeless See Through Windows


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

I'm glad you like it Wadester. It was easy and it's nice to be able to see what is happening inside. I got the idea from someone else. If I do it again I'll reverse some black tape on the edges so you don't see the grey.


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## alphazz (Oct 12, 2012)

What is his "sauce"?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

alphazz said:


> What is his "sauce"?


Wadester is a saucy guy!

Wadester's Secret Sauce:
16 oz latex mold builder
16 oz antifreeze or food grade PG
16 oz tubeless Slime
32 oz water

I have been running WSS in the rear and OSS in the front for a few months and I see no difference between the two as far as appearance or function. It will be interesting to see how they look after hanging up all winter.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

*Thanks....*



bsieb said:


> Wadester is a saucy guy!
> 
> Wadester's Secret Sauce:
> 16 oz latex mold builder
> ...


So, can I assume this basic WSS is at least a small step up/ in terms of function and cost compared to Stan's? If so I think I'll give it a shot.

This looks convenient to make compared tracking down more refined ingredients for higher grade home brews. I live in a fairly rural area with limited access to some ingredients.

Thanks.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Miker J said:


> This looks convenient to make compared tracking down more refined ingredients for higher grade home brews. I live in a fairly rural area with limited access to some ingredients.


You've got a computer and know how to use an internet browser. Go to Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more and get everything you need without leaving your house :thumbsup:

But, in all seriousness, WSS is superior to Stan's. So far, OSS is at least equal to WSS with the hope of being much longer lasting. You won't go wrong with the WSS mix


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## thasingletrackmastah (Nov 15, 2005)

eurotrash666 said:


> Definitely not the cloudy stuff (Parson's, etc.). Anything other than the clear type is loaded with salts and scents. I couldn't find any in Germany, either- but supposedly the apothecary will sell small quantities (here it is called Salmiakgeist). I ended up finding a brave friend to smuggle some in on a plane! Got only a few oz, but that is enough for two or three gallons of sealant. I also found some available in the online classifieds, lab-grade 40%! That would require a fume hood, so I passed...
> 
> It is a critical ingredient, and it sucks that the "war on terror" has limited the availability of nitrogen compounds. Anyone want to build a table-top Häber-Bosch generator?


Eurotrash666, As far as I know, amoniak still can be bought at local drugstores, home supply stores and supermarkets in The Netherlands and Belgium.
Just al little trip to the west ?

At the same drugstore I bought Mono Ethyleen Glycol only 2 euro/liter.
Can MEG be used or do I need PEG ?


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

thasingletrackmastah said:


> Eurotrash666, As far as I know, amoniak still can be bought at local drugstores, home supply stores and supermarkets in The Netherlands and Belgium.
> Just al little trip to the west ?
> 
> At the same drugstore I bought Mono Ethyleen Glycol only 2 euro/liter.
> Can MEG be used or do I need PEG ?


Belgium is close, thanks for the tip! You can use the ethylene glycol (mono ethylene, same thing) without consequence, it is perfectly compatible. It is toxic when ingested, that is the only difference in this application. Good price on that!


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## Burnt-Orange (Dec 10, 2008)

Spam reported 

Sj


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## mdemm (Aug 4, 2010)

I've got a question for the mixologists.... I need to mix up a new batch of OSS. I've searched high and low, trying to locate some PG locally. Only thing I've been able to find is a 16oz bottle of PG from a cigar shop. I'm not 100% sure, but I read somewhere that the PG used in humidors is a diluted mixture of 50/50 (PG/H20). I've got a bunch of RV antifreeze left over form a previous WSS mixture. Do you see a problem with using RV antifreeze instead of the pure PG ???


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

mdemm said:


> Do you see a problem with using RV antifreeze instead of the pure PG ???


The only issues are whether there are any "bad" additives, and knowing what the water content is so as to get the consistency you want.

That said, I recall that RV antifreeze is supposed to be non-toxic - so there can't be toooo many additives. But I bet it's "anti-corrosive", which is not the best match for sealant.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

The humidor juice is a clean 50/50, perfect to use if the price is right.


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## Burnt-Orange (Dec 10, 2008)

Spam reported

Sj


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## rothnic (Apr 26, 2012)

Any consideration been made for a substitute for xanthum gum? It is fairly expensive to get, when only a small quantity is needed. Kind of ruins the value for the everyday person when considered on top of the modeling latex and PG.


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## thasingletrackmastah (Nov 15, 2005)

eurotrash666 said:


> Belgium is close, thanks for the tip! You can use the ethylene glycol (mono ethylene, same thing) without consequence, it is perfectly compatible. It is toxic when ingested, that is the only difference in this application. Good price on that!


Thank you ! Good luck finding the stuff in Belgium.
I heard it can be found at Delhaize, Gamma and Mr.Bricolage.


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## secateurs (Nov 15, 2012)

Ok, tried a modified WSS for the first time (and tubeless for the first time).

I mixed WSS 160ml (5.4oz) at a time (approximately enough for one tyre).

rims = Bontrager Tubeless ready, with Bontrager rim strips, stan's valves.
Rear tyre = Crossmark LUST. Sealed perfectly with floor pump
Front tyre = the original tyre on bike (Trek Superfly AL) = Bontrager 29-1 EXP

I scrubbed the inside of each tyre with water and orange oil spray-and-wipe. I also used the spray-and-wipe for the "soapy water" to aid in mounting and inflating the tyres.

I was able to inflate both tyres using only a floor pump.

Front tyre has green liquid still oozing from sidewalls after nearly 48 hours. It has lost around 8psi in that time.

Rear tyre has also lost around 8psi, but no ooze.

I also noticed that I could still hear sloshing with my rear, but the front doesn't seem to have any liquid in it (even immediately after inflating it).

My recipe:
40ml green slime (Automotive for tyres with tubes, it says on the label).
80ml demineralized water
40ml latex mold builder
approx 2 tablespoons of PG (sourced from local compounding chemist)
In the front tyre I also added approx 3/4 teaspoon of Xanthan gum

The first batch I made I put the latex in first, then the PG. I hadn't cleaned out my measuring container and there was still a fair bit of latex in it. As soon as I put the PG in the rest of the latex in the container formed a booger with the PG. I had to throw it out and measure more PG in again. I then added the water, shook, then the slime and shook again.

Here are my questions:
1. What order should I be mixing in? (obviously the latex and PG don't play nicely)
2. How well should I be cleaning my measuring container between ingredients (or should i have a separate measuring container for each ingredient?)
3. How do you get all the latex out of your measuring container into the mixing container? My latex is quite thick.
4. Is it ok to shake to mix the ingredients?
5. Does it matter what kind of container is used to mix in? I used a glass pasta sauce bottle (approx one litre = one quart) with metal lid.
6. Should I mix/store in a smaller container to prevent as much ammonia from evaporating?
7. What should I dissolve the Xanthan gum in, and when should I add it? I tried adding it to the water and shaking before adding it to the mix. some dissolved, but there were a few small clumps.
8. Is it ok to make up such small quantities?

Thanks for your help!


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## pixel_nut (Jun 27, 2012)

I decided to try my own brew. Rather than antifreeze I'm using windshield de-icing fluid ($2 for one gallon at AutoZone) with a bit of slime and mold builder. Bought a pelt of artificial fur that I cut a bit off of and threw into the mix, haha. If the formula survives the test of time I'll post results. And if not I'll post results. Anyways, I got both tires sealed up using this brew with a floor pump, so that was good!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Yes, my BAMFS (which is pretty much just WSS) is a @#[email protected]#$ to get out of the tires when dry. I just scrubbed it out with a brush and hot water...lots of elbow grease.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Well I have sort of good news to report. I upped the ammonia in my formula about a month ago and eliminated the chunkulators on the theory that they were precipitating boogers and all I ever get around here are small punctures.
Yesterday, I rode over a field that had some kind of rigid little sticks that had been mowed down to about 2" and they were actually breaking under my tires. About 40' in I noticed a white spooge on my front and by the time I stopped to look at it, it had already sealed. This sealant has been in the tire for about 5 weeks so this is a promising result. The tire was a fairly new Slant 6 29er if that matters. Needless to say, I headed out of that field. Yesterday morning I put 23.5 psi in that tire and this morning it read 23. On average this tire would lose about .25 per day so it probably only lost .25 to .5 before sealing.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

yourdaguy said:


> Well I have sort of good news to report. I upped the ammonia in my formula about a month ago and eliminated the chunkulators on the theory that they were precipitating boogers and all I ever get around here are small punctures.
> Yesterday, I rode over a field that had some kind of rigid little sticks that had been mowed down to about 2" and they were actually breaking under my tires. About 40' in I noticed a white spooge on my front and by the time I stopped to look at it, it had already sealed. This sealant has been in the tire for about 5 weeks so this is a promising result. The tire was a fairly new Slant 6 29er if that matters. Needless to say, I headed out of that field. Yesterday morning I put 23.5 psi in that tire and this morning it read 23. On average this tire would lose about .25 per day so it probably only lost .25 to .5 before sealing.


That's good news! I have some data to report as well. I got a rear sidewall cut from catching a jutting rock recently (third time with the cheap pacestar Schwalbes, snakeskin from now on!). I lost a lot of sealant while riding, but it always sealed when I would stop. The sealant just can't cope with an elongated cut on a sidewall that flexes under weight and returns with each rotation. I think that goes for any sealant. I had to dump my 4-month old OSS to put in a tube for the ride home- the booger in there was only the size of an actual nose booger, so this stuff is holding up really well. Anyway, the same ride I noticed a small puncture on the center tread up front that had sealed over, and have lost no air at all since installing the tires with glycerine to seat the beads. I check my tires every week with a gauge, and have been surprised that no air is needed- time after time!

A note on the spewing sealant, I'm going to up my xanthan gum to 1/4 pr 1/2 tsp per quart and see how that goes. Moving a little more toward gravy from milk may help with those bigger punctures. I have two wheelsets to mount this month, so it is time for a new batch.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

From what I've seen - I don't think anything will seal an actual cut. Even the best of "glue" will need time to set up enough to develop strength to hold the middle of a cut together.

For this reason, carry a needle and thread. Use a baseball stitch and sew the cut - doesn't even have to be thourough, because once the edges are held, the sealant can work within it's normal range. The one tire that was killed by a cut got cheesily sewed up into a nasty wad - but sealed and held for the life of the tire. Didn't have sewing kit with me, so did it at home after putting in a tube. Now I carry the sewing kit.

Baseball stitch - gives smooth even edge:


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> A note on the spewing sealant, I'm going to up my xanthan gum to 1/4 pr 1/2 tsp per quart and see how that goes. Moving a little more toward gravy from milk may help with those bigger punctures.


That's the key. Thick enough to work well but still thin enough to move around inside the tire.


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## Pepperagge (Feb 25, 2004)

Ok, it is time for me to report some of my results. The recipe I have used is as follows:
190 ml water
10 ml ammonium hydroxide (24%)
100 ml latexmonomers
100 ml ethylene glycol

The mixture is stable and the pH ends up around 9-10 (I only measured with pH-paper sorry). My plan is to measure pH over time. Using my less than accurate method last time I checked it was unchanged (after about two months).

I have been using the mixture with great success on Chinese carbon rim/Bontrager rimstrip together with Maxxis Aspen 65 and Maxxis Ikon 65. I also have it up and running on old dented Rigida Taurus disc rims, tubeless ghetto style (splitted schawalbe 24” tube) and old Geax Saguaro 2.2 tires. The latex mixture has sealed small holes such as holes caused by blackberry thorns from the forest and sharp gravel used as slip-prevention on icy commuting roads. After a particularly rocky session one Geax tire had to be thrown away due to an 8mm slit on a side wall. No unwanted polymerization has been seen so far. All configurations got seated and sealed up using a floor pump.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Pepperagge said:


> Ok, it is time for me to report some of my results. The recipe I have used is as follows:
> 190 ml water
> 10 ml ammonium hydroxide (24%)
> 100 ml latexmonomers
> ...


Sweet! It was thoughful to monitor pH, that is a viable way of determining if the sealant is still "fresh." I went through the proton balance rigormarole when I was working on compatibilities of components, since it is the dominant function in determining solution behavior in this context. It is easy to recognize the pKa of ammonium as the driver that will keep pH at around 9.5, and when that's gone it's driven by water and propylene glycol. It was this principle that kept me fixed on alcohols (water and glycol are both functional alcohols, as is xanthan gum) to keep everything playing nicely together. So, if your pH drops, it's time to change sealant. Odor might be a more convenient indicator, however.


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

Has latexmonomers been mentioned before? I probably missed it. I am assuming this isn't liquid latex.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Andy13 said:


> Has latexmonomers been mentioned before? I probably missed it. I am assuming this isn't liquid latex.


Same thing. A monomer is a building block, in our case butadiene aka latex.


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

ric426 said:


> For those of you using Gorilla Tape, I came up with a way to evenly slit it to any width and have nice clean edges. I spool off enough tape from the big roll for an overlapping wrap, then wind it onto a rubber sanding drum. I then chuck the drum in my drill press and with a utility knife resting on a block, I set the table height to put the blade where I want a cut. Fire up the press and slowly slide the tip of the blade into the spinning roll and it cuts it in a couple of seconds. I start with a cut at the bottom to even it up, then make cuts to get the widths I want and finish with a trimming cut at the top. With a wheel in my truing stand and the sanding drum in hand, I can feed the tape right from the drum onto the rim. I'm sure I'm not the first one to do it this way, but thought I'd pass it on. Makes for perfect rim tape widths as needed.


Tech Tuesday: Gorilla Tape Tubeless Conversion - Pinkbike


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^^^You can just tear the gorilla tape off the roll if you snip the end to start at the right width, no need to make it complicated. Simple.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^+1


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## PB Matrix (May 22, 2005)

bsieb said:


> ^^^you can just tear the gorilla tape off the roll if you snip the end to start at the right width, no need to make it complicated. Simple.


+1 ^^


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## Kaptkaos (Sep 26, 2011)

Has anyone tried that super rubber sealant spray they advertise on tv? The one that seals a screen door un the floor of a rowboat? I wonder if that will work instead of rim tape?


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## rideandshoot (Dec 18, 2006)

*Let me try this...*

I am genuinely intrigued, impressed and fascinated not just by the info in this thread but also by the minds that created it. I'm an Mechanical Manufacturing Engineer by training and absolutely love minds that dissect a problem like you have with this. But, I'm am short on time. I have spent hours on this thread and can't quite decide what to do when my current can of Stan's is finally gone. I want a recipe. I know I don't deserve it. I haven't followed the thread as religiously as I should. I want the benefit without the work. Note... I'm not looking for 'THE' recipe. I want 'A' recipe that works like stans and won't evaporate in 3 week during the summer when its 110 outside and seems even hotter in my garage. I'm willing to spend what Stan's sealant cost if it will last and I'm willing to spend some time (over Christmas break) to put it together. If you have a recipe that will work for me and can post it or can direct me to the post I will be eternally grateful.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

*Take your pick*



rideandshoot said:


> I am genuinely intrigued, impressed and fascinated not just by the info in this thread but also by the minds that created it. I'm an Mechanical Manufacturing Engineer by training and absolutely love minds that dissect a problem like you have with this. But, I'm am short on time. I have spent hours on this thread and can't quite decide what to do when my current can of Stan's is finally gone. I want a recipe. I know I don't deserve it. I haven't followed the thread as religiously as I should. I want the benefit without the work. Note... I'm not looking for 'THE' recipe. I want 'A' recipe that works like stans and won't evaporate in 3 week during the summer when its 110 outside and seems even hotter in my garage. I'm willing to spend what Stan's sealant cost if it will last and I'm willing to spend some time (over Christmas break) to put it together. If you have a recipe that will work for me and can post it or can direct me to the post I will be eternally grateful.


If you have spent any time on this thread, you will see close to 100 different recipes.

Take your pick...............everyone has their opinion on which one works best. Until Stan himself gets on here and posts his recipe, everyone will continue to try and make their own recipe as good as his. Granted, his has some flaws, but its still the sauce that everyone is trying to mimic.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I am not trying to mimic Stan's. As far as I am concerned our formulation exceeded Stans back in the Slime/latex/rv antifreeze days and since eurotrash got involved it is even better still.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

Kaptkaos said:


> Has anyone tried that super rubber sealant spray they advertise on tv? The one that seals a screen door un the floor of a rowboat? I wonder if that will work instead of rim tape?


I've seen the ad but am not sure if it's applicable here. Sealing a screen door means blocking a bunch of tiny holes, nothing near as large as a spoke hole opening.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> I am not trying to mimic Stan's. As far as I am concerned our formulation exceeded Stans back in the Slime/latex/rv antifreeze days and since eurotrash got involved it is even better still.


THIS.

WSS was better than Stan's. OSS is even better. And BOTH are more economical.

Several recipes running around:


big0mike said:


> OSS v1c
> 
> • 16 oz water
> • 16 oz PG
> ...





MntnMan said:


> Dissolved 1/4 tsp. xanthan gum (Sprouts) in 2 TBS concentrated antifreeze (PG from Autozone)
> Add 2 tsp. ammonia (grocery store)
> Mix in 1 cup 50/50 PG/distilled water
> (shake well between the next steps)
> ...





yourdaguy said:


> Put 16 oz of PG in a 32 oz measuring beaker
> 
> Dissolve in 2 13cc scoops of xantham gum - if you sprinkle it in slowly, it will totally whet. Mix with a stirrer.
> 
> ...





ktm520 said:


> 32oz water
> 16oz pure PG
> 16oz latex
> 1/4 tsp xantham gum
> ...


If you don't like any of those because of the more difficult to find products you can always go back to the beginning and load up some Slime, RV antifreeze, Latex and water. Still better than Stan's.


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

big0mike said:


> THIS.
> 
> WSS was better than Stan's. OSS is even better. And BOTH are more economical.
> 
> ...


Was not WSS V2 
1P Slime 
1P Latex MB
2P water

Simple, cheap as slime is 28.00 a gallon at WW and at least as good as Stan's


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Fred Smedley said:


> Was not WSS V2
> 1P Slime
> 1P Latex MB
> 2P water
> ...


WSS V1:
1 Slime
1 Latex
1 Antifreeze (straight ethylene glycol auto antifreeze)
2 Water
Variations include;
Using RV antifreeze, which premixed 50/50 with water and is propylene (nontox) instead of ethylene (poisonous)
Using Propylene glycol (USP) instead of Antifreeze (less undesirable additives)
Using Fog Machine fluid - which is (IIRC?) 50/50 premix water/PG
Using Ultrapure or Distilled water (less undesirable "additives")

WSS V2:
2 Slime
1 Latex
2 Water
This mix is a bit thick. Intent was to eliminate Antifreeze, which was seen as causing coagulation and oozing and to increase the chunkulation.

My current preference is V1 proportions with "pure" variations
1 Slime
1 Latex
1 Propylene Glycol USP
2 Ultrapure or Distilled water

NOTE: Slime is chunkulation (fibers, rubber crumbs) in a Propylene glycol/water fluid.

OSS is aimed at eliminating undesirable additives/contaminants and developing a thickener/chunkulator package to replace Slime. Proportions are more finely tuned. Additional ammonia may be added to keep pH in range to prevent latex coagulation.


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

wadester said:


> WSS V1:
> 1 Slime
> 1 Latex
> 1 Antifreeze (straight ethylene glycol auto antifreeze)
> ...


Thanks! I think I am going to try v1 with distilled water and peak RV antifreeze as the MSDS indicates only .001% additives.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^I've had good success with that formula. I can tell its time for a refresher when the liquid coming out is dark green instead of milky green. 3-4 months summer time or as much a 5 through the winter.


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## rideandshoot (Dec 18, 2006)

Thanks everybody. Next week I'll gin up one of them. I'm thinking I want to lean toward the ones with the least water to combat evaporation right?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Actually, more water has seemed to work better all things else being the same. You want it to be somewhat thin. Not as thick as buttermilk.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

yourdaguy said:


> Actually, more water has seemed to work better all things else being the same. You want it to be somewhat thin. Not as thick as buttermilk.


+1 Thin distributes itself more effectively is my observation.


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## dimitrin (Nov 23, 2008)

wadester said:


> WSS V1:
> 1 Slime
> 1 Latex
> 1 Antifreeze (straight ethylene glycol auto antifreeze)
> ...





big0mike said:


> THIS.
> 
> WSS was better than Stan's. OSS is even better. And BOTH are more economical.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what alot of people want to see.
Can we get these posts combined into a sticky?


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

I'm going to be mixing up a new batch with WWSv1 RV antifreeze version. 

Worked well the first time I tried it, don't see a reason to change.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

My last two batches have been like this. The local guinea pigs are happy, and since upping the ammonia I have had very little boogering compared to schtanz. I preach Purity of Essence.

stir 1/4 tsp. xanthan gum into 1 oz PG
Add 1.5 oz ammonia
stir in 1 cup 50/50 PG/DI water
1 cup liquid latex
1 cup 50/50 PG/DI water
Chunkulators of choice, I like 1 red scoop of rubber crumb
Top off quart container with distilled water (about a cup)


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

eurotrash666 said:


> My last two batches have been like this. The local guinea pigs are happy, and since upping the ammonia I have had very little boogering compared to schtanz. I preach Purity of Essence.
> 
> stir 1/4 tsp. xanthan gum into 1 oz PG
> Add 1.5 oz ammonia
> ...


Ammonia is bad. Corrosive to aluminum.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

MikeDee said:


> Ammonia is bad. Corrosive to aluminum.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


Not to oxides of Al, which is what your rims are coated with. In fact, even spots worn bare oxidize so quickly in the atmosphere they shortly become resistant anyway. Unless you can tell me something I haven't considered about how electrons move in this scenario, I will clear the air of this idea for the second time in this thread. Your rims will not be affected by ammonium in sealant.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

eurotrash666 is exactly right. I have had sealant in rims for 4 years continuously and there is absolutely no damage. I remember when I first went tubeless I was worried that it would melt my tires and rims. I thought "oh well, I will just have to buy lighter rims". Anyway, I have one tire that has had sealant in it for 3 of the last 4 years and currently has sealant in it that I just redid last week. The tread is 90% worn out it is on the rear of my beater bike The inside carcass looks just like it did 4 years ago.


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## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

*Slime type matters?*

I'm going to try the WSS standard sealant but wanted to know if the particular Slime mattered. I purchased the TUBE sealant instead of the Tire sealant but if one works better than the other then I'll go with it. Couldn't find any specificity on some of the WSS recipe posts/reposts. Posting pics for the reference.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The tube sealant is the wrong one. It does not have the small chunks of rubber which is the main reason for adding Slime. Your sealant will still seal small holes if you use it, but it won't have any chuncks for the bigger holes. If you only ever get thorn sticks (which tends to be my case) you would probably be ok.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

the atv/mower slime has the biggest chunks (this is visible through the container) I've mixed it up with the automotive version and while it worked ok, the atv/mower version stops leaks faster.


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## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

Thanks yourdaguy and elwoodturner. I'll go back and get the ATV/Mower version even though in Arizona we primarily get cactus thorns.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Those are larger thorns than the thorn bush thorns we get in Southern Indiana. You might like having the chunks!


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## RC24 (Oct 18, 2012)

I didn't want to start up a new thread, but have a question regarding going tubeless. Just ordered a complete bike that is being built with Easton EA70 XCT wheels and Schwalbe Rocket Ron TL tires. It is coming built with tubes but I would like to ditch those and go tubeless.

What do I need to convert?


----------



## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^tape, valves and sealant. Do a search.


----------



## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

*Wadester Brew Math*

Not my strong suit but I made a batch up and wanted to actualize the savings. So here goes:

Wadester Brew:
- Mold Builder $18 (16 oz)
- Tire Slime $10 (18 oz)
- RV antifreeze $0.63 (16 oz) $5/Gal
- Glitter $.60 (avg)
- H2O free (32 oz)
*- Total: $29.23*(82 oz)

- Stan's $20 (16 oz)

Wadester Brew => $29.23/82oz = *$0.36/oz *

Stan's => $20/16oz = *$1.25/oz*

347% savings over Stan's*
* Stan's prices vary but I used a figure which I believe to be an avg price.er

Edit 1: Mixture ingredient order:
1) Water, 2) Antifreeze, 3)Slime 4)Mold builder 5)glitter

Edit 2: I also went to Home Depot and purchased a paint stirrer drill attachment for $10 (in the paint section). This works really well to homogenize the mixture as you're adding ingredients one by one, especially blending the glitter. Highly recommended.


----------



## Space Ranger (Jan 17, 2011)

Micheals has two coupons out right now; one 50% and another 45% off. I just bought two cans of mold builder for $19. I'm not sure if they're app-based or if you can get them online but i used mine through my app.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

@CCMTB- Who told you to use glitter?


----------



## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

bsieb said:


> @CCMTB- Who told you to use glitter?


Just got the idea from post #2. Figured it couldn't hurt.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

CCMTB said:


> Just got the idea from post #2. Figured it couldn't hurt.


It could hurt by causing premature boogering.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Most of the people on this thread used glitter for more than a year before we figured out it was a trigger for boogers. If you don't want to read the entire thread, start with eurotrash666's first post I think it is around 1600.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Two downsides to glitter. One, booger seeding, as stated. Two, when you pop the bead to recharge, the flakes (sic) get in there and make the rim to tire seal harder to accomplish.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

The various recipes were summarized a few posts back. You can go the quick and functional route with WSS, or the nerdy perfectionist route with OSS- whichever suits your situation.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

CCMTB said:


> Not my strong suit but I made a batch up and wanted to actualize the savings. So here goes:
> 
> Wadester Brew:
> - Mold Builder $18 (16 oz)
> ...


----------



## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

bsieb said:


> It could hurt by causing premature boogering.


2 Tbs in 80 oz of mix. Hopefully won't be that detrimental.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

CCMTB said:


> 2 Tbs in 80 oz of mix. Hopefully won't be that detrimental.


Tell an oyster that.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

slocaus said:


> Tell an oyster that.


Pearls of wisdom!


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## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

slocaus said:


> Tell an oyster that.


Mmmm...oysters. Delectable.


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

I searched for the type of ammonia you are all using to spike your home brews but didn't get anything specific other than not using the regular cleaning ammonia at groceries. In the US what type of ammonia and where are you all getting it. TIA. Andy


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

MntnMan said:


> Dissolved 1/4 tsp. xanthan gum (Sprouts) in 2 TBS concentrated antifreeze (PG from Autozone)
> Add 2 tsp. ammonia (grocery store)
> Mix in 1 cup 50/50 PG/distilled water
> (shake well between the next steps)
> ...


Im sick so Im reading the entire thread. Im still in November, but I wanted to say this is one of the best posts in the thread as it clearly articulates where to get the ingredients in local stores.

Im trying to minimize where to buy the stuff and the cost
Here is what I think will work:

Hobby lobby-
Mold Latex - use hobby lobby 40% off coupon - 6.80 with coupon for 16oz
Silica Gel (used for drying flowers) or model grass in various sizes (gel is 5.99 for 1.5 lb bag)

Super walmart
RV antifreeze - walmart may only have it with additives.
Ammonia - cleaning aisle
xantham gum - gluten free area
distilled water

there actually is a chance that some walmarts may carry mold latex and silica gel in their craft sections.

I also found out that guitar center carries fog juice which is usually 99% PG


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Vet supply stores have 100% USP PG. It has to be pure PG because they feed it to animals.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> Vet supply stores have 100% USP PG. It has to be pure PG because they feed it to animals.


Im just trying to minimize the stores I have to go to  We have a tractor supply place which is somewhat close


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

People havent really been posting what they are using for chunks. Is it simply not necessary? I know some are using rubber but it seems like the landscaping grass/silica gel is no longer being used. Since they are both at hobby lobby with the mold latex my preference is to use those.

Do the lint fibers matter?


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

goodmojo said:


> Im sick so Im reading the entire thread. Im still in November, but I wanted to say this is one of the best posts in the thread as it clearly articulates where to get the ingredients in local stores.
> 
> Im trying to minimize where to buy the stuff and the cost
> Here is what I think will work:
> ...


You might be better off with WSS, it's simpler and uses common ingredients. The testers want pure ingredients in hopes it will last longer but there is no practical reason to make it more complicated than you wish. Try what you got and let us know how it works for you. :thumbsup:


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

For chunks hobby lobby has all different kinds of styrofoam that can be shredded would those be ok? I was thinking about buying a foam ball and putting it through a cheese grater


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

wadester said:


> From what I've seen - I don't think anything will seal an actual cut. Even the best of "glue" will need time to set up enough to develop strength to hold the middle of a cut together.
> 
> For this reason, carry a needle and thread. Use a baseball stitch and sew the cut - doesn't even have to be thourough, because once the edges are held, the sealant can work within it's normal range. The one tire that was killed by a cut got cheesily sewed up into a nasty wad - but sealed and held for the life of the tire. Didn't have sewing kit with me, so did it at home after putting in a tube. Now I carry the sewing kit.
> 
> Baseball stitch - gives smooth even edge:


Non waxed dental floss works great for stitching tires.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

goodmojo said:


> People havent really been posting what they are using for chunks. Is it simply not necessary? I know some are using rubber but it seems like the landscaping grass/silica gel is no longer being used. Since they are both at hobby lobby with the mold latex my preference is to use those.
> 
> Do the lint fibers matter?





goodmojo said:


> For chunks hobby lobby has all different kinds of styrofoam that can be shredded would those be ok? I was thinking about buying a foam ball and putting it through a cheese grater


So far, I'm not so sure about the rubber crumb. It is just okay, and integrates with the sealant when it solidifies, but it could plug better. It is not very dense, and may be a little too large. It doesn't inject well, either. I'm getting too damn lazy from maintaining five wheelsets to deal with scoops and levers.

I haven't tried the turf grass yet. I have been saving little packets of silica for a test, and reviewed the chemistry on silica gel. All is good as long as pH is high, which it is from the ammonia. I think it needs to be something a little more dense that can be shaken and seal. It may not have to be flexible at all, just the right size and density to work into the puncture. I refuse to consider corn meal. Not sure about hair and lint at this point, either.

So chunks are the final frontier for the OSS homebrew.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

These two jugs of homebrew have been setting for `~60 days. Thought the layering in the OSS was interesting. The WSS doesn't show any apparent settling of the rubber chunks yet.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Styrofoam would not work well for chunks since it would float and not get down to the holes very well to seal.

eurotrash666; I just had a thought I want to run this by you. Instead of saturating the silica gel in pure H2O what if we dried it and then saturated it with ammonia before adding scoops of it to the mix? Wouldn't this tend to help prevent clumps better? I am currently running with no chunculators with good results, but when I used silica gel it seemed to work well until it clumped up.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

regarding ammonia, fish people use pure ammonia (good google search term) to test how well their tank can cycle ammonia which will be produced by their fish. One ammonia in the US that they say is completely clean is janitorial strength ammonia from ace hardware (10% ammonia I think). There is a "clear ammonia" from walmart that some people mention as being pure, but others have said it contains surfactants.

How much actual ammonia is added to the mix? I saw 3 tablespoons in a quart, but of what concentration?

Here are some other ammonias that are clean:

sea mist clear ammonia
austins clear ammonia


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> Styrofoam would not work well for chunks since it would float and not get down to the holes very well to seal.
> 
> eurotrash666; I just had a thought I want to run this by you. Instead of saturating the silica gel in pure H2O what if we dried it and then saturated it with ammonia before adding scoops of it to the mix? Wouldn't this tend to help prevent clumps better? I am currently running with no chunculators with good results, but when I used silica gel it seemed to work well until it clumped up.


I was thinking the styrofoam would be saturated with the fluid as to be neutrally buoyant. (I was thinking open cell vs something like a styrofoam cup). as the liquid sprays out the hole, there should be plenty of sealant to go with it. Something like florists foam or a sponge

I did some searching and ammonia might eat through styrofoam (florists foam is styrofoam). Shredded sponges might be ok though


----------



## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

goodmojo said:


> Im just trying to minimize the stores I have to go to  We have a tractor supply place which is somewhat close


amazon.com?  That's where I go for everything except the latex and I only get that at Michael's because it's always 40% off. Since it's the most expensive part of the recipe the savings helps.



goodmojo said:


> People havent really been posting what they are using for chunks. Is it simply not necessary? I know some are using rubber but it seems like the landscaping grass/silica gel is no longer being used. Since they are both at hobby lobby with the mold latex my preference is to use those.
> 
> Do the lint fibers matter?


I'm using rubber crumb and have no issues so far. I could be sealing hole after hole. Or nothing? I'm also using dog hair in my mix. I guess if I had to choose just one I'd take the dog hair since it's (almost) free. And anyone that has seen hair clog a drain knows that hair can plug sh|t up.



eurotrash666 said:


> So far, I'm not so sure about the rubber crumb. It is just okay, and integrates with the sealant when it solidifies, but it could plug better. It is not very dense, and may be a little too large. It doesn't inject well, either. I'm getting too damn lazy from maintaining five wheelsets to deal with scoops and levers.


Schrader, baby!

I found the crumb gave me little to no problems injecting. Silica gel, on the other, would plug even a Schrader stem with little effort.

I was actually thinking I'd like to see larger chunks of rubber in the crumb. Most seem to be towards the "sand" size with some larger chunks. I wonder if the half bottle I shipped you had more of the larger chunks and the smaller settled toward the bottom of the bottle here in my pantry? I didn't even think to shake it or anything like that...

I'm happy with my mix and probably have enough to fill my tires 4 more times so I'll let it sit until I need more. Maybe by then between everyone involved there will be some other advancement.


----------



## Jason R (Dec 9, 2012)

*Technical question about tubeless set up*

Just wondering if anyone has information regarding this question.Does the sealant actually work into the space between the bead on the tire and the rim? Also, does the sealant create a seal on the chosen tape and the inner wall? I'm thinking that it creates sort of a caulk bead in the inner tire but can't find any info regarding this.I'm wondering this because I'll be using gorilla tape and I'm leery about the sealant actually sticking to the slick outside of the tape. Any thoughts on this?


----------



## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Sealing the bead is one of the sealant's jobs, especially in a ghetto situation. I'm running gorilla tape and it does the job just fine.

Sent from my Thunderbolt via Tapatalk...


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Jason R said:


> Just wondering if anyone has information regarding this question.Does the sealant actually work into the space between the bead on the tire and the rim? Also, does the sealant create a seal on the chosen tape and the inner wall? I'm thinking that it creates sort of a caulk bead in the inner tire but can't find any info regarding this.I'm wondering this because I'll be using gorilla tape and I'm leery about the sealant actually sticking to the slick outside of the tape. Any thoughts on this?


The sealant seals the spaces air leaks out of, and it doesn't seem to matter what the spaces are made of. It would be interesting to go in and observe the process but anecdotal evidence indicates it works well. :thumbsup:


----------



## Jason R (Dec 9, 2012)

bsieb said:


> The sealant seals the spaces air leaks out of, and it doesn't seem to matter what the spaces are made of. It would be interesting to go in and observe the process but anecdotal evidence indicates it works well. :thumbsup:


Thanks, yeah it would be interesting to see how quickly it seals and what it looks like inside the tire, maybe some experiments in the near future. My original post mentioned that I was using gorilla tape. I went ahead and used Stan't yellow on my Stan's Flows. Mounted some Bontrager 29-3 TLRs on and it sealed right up with no leaks at all. I guess I worried a little too much. I didn't know it would be this easy!


----------



## mdemm (Aug 4, 2010)

An update. My original batch was WSS 2. Worked fine except for the dreaded buggers. Next up was OSS 1. Originally, I was pleased with same. Except, that every 3 to 4 weeks I'd have to ad more. Also, upon popping the tire from the bead. There was a congealed gloppy mess affixed to the inner tire ( a royal pita to get off). For the next setup I went with WSS 1 (adding 2+ tbs of ammonia) . This mixture seemed much more fluid. Mounted the tires (used gorilla tape) to the rims and they sealed right up ( zero leaks). As a matter of fact. Its been 3 days and I have yet to loose air... Something that I could not do while using the OSS brew. So far, I am one happy camper with the WSS 1 brew. Will update as time progresses.


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## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

*So far, so good*

It's a bit premature since it's only been a couple weeks since I put the Wadester brew in my tires and been relatively cool in Phoenix. That said, I wanted to look at it in the tire after having several rides with it and so far so good. The inside of my 29" NN 2.25 is not slimy and the brew looks pretty much like the day it went it, just a bit frothier. I was nervous that it would prematurely coagulate because I added glitter, but it hasn't. I'm smilin' in anticipation of this recipe working as good (or better) than Stan's. Time will tell. The summer will tell.


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## bikeabuser (Aug 12, 2012)

Not heading down the tubeless road yet, but ... Here's a source for rubber in an almost powder form, if anyone wants to try it - Drafting Supplies Cleaning Pad Clean Eraser Bag Tattoo | eBay

Also,
You can find this stuff at most drafting supply places, and possible office supply stores.

It's basically a loose weave sock with powdered (white) eraser in it.


----------



## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

bikeabuser said:


> Not heading down the tubeless road yet, but ... Here's a source for rubber in an almost powder form, if anyone wants to try it - Drafting Supplies Cleaning Pad Clean Eraser Bag Tattoo | eBay
> 
> Also,
> You can find this stuff at most drafting supply places, and possible office supply stores.
> ...


This I like. I am quite familiar with the stuff; all of the drafting and engineering design classes I've ever taken (and it is a few) were done with ye olde T-square and angles. The magic bag keeps your stuff gliding over the paper without smudging it up by the time you get to the softer lead or inks... Fine texture, compliant, would probably work great. If only it were cheap cheap!


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

MntnMan said:


> OTB'd last weekend coming down a new trail at Mach .5. Rear tire landed on a rock breaking a spoke, which for some reason punctured the Gorilla tape, and well, pssssssssss. So in goes a tube trailside, but not before inspecting my homebrew. Still lots left after 45 days, however, with a white, very flimsy/airy booger the size of an almond.


Update: 4 months in with my WSS-modified brew. Hadn't touched the front wheel since inception early Oct, but I noticed I couldn't hear any sloshing of brew this past weekend. So I broke the bead to see what was up inside and found this asteroid-sized booger. It lost less air than the tubed rear and was great while she lasted. I'll try the latest OSS this time with latex, slime, PG, and H20.


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

*chunks: cut up plastic rope*

FYI - I cut up some thick nylon rope for matrix building "hairs"

These coarse bristles seem to be working great.


----------



## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

client_9 said:


> FYI - I cut up some thick nylon rope for matrix building "hairs" These coarse bristles seem to be working great.


Interested in seeing the end product you put in your mix...


----------



## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

big0mike said:


> Interested in seeing the end product you put in your mix...


----------



## ktm520 (Apr 21, 2004)

client_9 said:


> FYI - I cut up some thick nylon rope for matrix building "hairs"
> 
> These coarse bristles seem to be working great.


Great idea!


----------



## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

Brilliant!


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## RidingMyTrail (Oct 7, 2012)

Been out of touch for a while. I know that Slime Pro was mentioned and based on some of the earlier conversations, I put in in my tires last fall. Popped a bead off last week, so I took the opportunity to check on it. No boogers and I've had zero problems. Still plenty of liquid. For those that don't want to brew, or want to blend with Slime Pro, I think you will be very happy.


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## Markleo (Feb 20, 2006)

65Matt said:


> OK - I bought everything and I'm gonna try Wadesters latest recipe. I found the latex mold builder at Hobby Lobby, and I found that if you Google "hobby lobby coupon", you'll find a 40% off one you can print and use. Everything else, I found at Walmart.


can you use the slime green sealant for tubeless ready tires?


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## DavyRay (Apr 13, 2012)

eurotrash666 said:


> My last two batches have been like this. The local guinea pigs are happy, and since upping the ammonia I have had very little boogering compared to schtanz. I preach Purity of Essence.
> 
> stir 1/4 tsp. xanthan gum into 1 oz PG
> Add 1.5 oz ammonia
> ...


I mixed this up a couple of days ago. For chunkulators, I made a small amount of eraser crumbs, cut up a patch of dryer lint (cotton fibers, synthetic fibers, and pet hair). I also added some old rubber band material which I cut into very fine bits using scissors and an exacto knife.

I had to try a few times to get a seal with a Kenda Karma tire on a XLC Inverno 29er rim. This does seem to take some practice to get to work.

A different question now... Have any of you ever considered just painting the whole mountain bike with OSS?


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## surferwind (Apr 6, 2011)

As a chemist by trade rather interested in this thread. Admittedly have not read all 87 pages but noted on page 85 the most recently recommended recipes are reposted.

Of note several versions incorporated additives for plugging holes that can also be expected to act as detackifiers and/or thickeners (good example is silica). My background in surfing has led to many a repair with resin wherein glass or ceramic microspheres aka microballoons are incorporated for similar properties. Note these are microscopic balloons where a one gallon jug weighs only about a pound. It seems to me these would act similarly as foothold for the latex on which to coagulate. Notably they lack they detackifying aspect of silica or some of the other ingredients I have seen listed in these recipes (and which I wonder if partially contributed to the build up of "goobers", along with the latex precipitating out of solution).

Has anyone ever incorporated these into such a homebrew?

Thanks for the feeback in advance. I've been a lurker for a few years since starting this sport. Currently reviewing available info as I make the switch to tubeless in the next few weeks.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^welcome to the forum, great 1st post.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

surfewind; welcome. The only problem I see with the micro-spheres is that they would float on the sealant and in order to plug holes, the "chunky" stuff needs to be at least neutral buoyant. Keep the idea's coming.


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## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

I made a batch of eurotrash666's recipe when he first put up what ratios he was using. I did go a little over his precise measurements, probably double on the ammonia and a little more of the ionised water and PG, I also used the fine model grass for bulk (about 2 red cups full). Opened up my front tyre today to find no boogers and just a slight coating on the inside of the tyre. I feel I have had only a little evaporation go on in the time the sealant has been in the tyre. This was the first time I have looked inside. I put around 80ml in when first installing my tyres which are Continental UST 2.2's
I haven't cracked the rear tyre as I can still hear plenty of sealant inside and no sound of a booger.:thumbsup:

Based in the UK, so not too hot.


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## zipzit (Aug 3, 2005)

ruscle said:


> I made a batch of eurotrash666's recipe when he first put up what ratios he was using.


Ruscle, thanks for sharing.. But.. instead of making me go back again and re-read the entire posting to find EuroTrash's comments. how about just telling us plain....

How long has the stuff been in your tires? Thanks, Zip.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Ruscle- Any sealant, or no sealant, works well in UST tires. They don't require sealant.


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## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

bsieb said:


> Ruscle- Any sealant, or no sealant, works well in UST tires. They don't require sealant.


Thanks for clearing that up for me, the UST tyre thing really did have me baffled!!

The new batch off Rubber Queens were over 100g lighter, meaning less rubber. Also have you tried sealing a tyre onto a Light-bicycle wider carbon rim which you have spent time building and making sure is perfectly true, probably not. These fantastic rims don't like tyres seating on them some times, making sealant a must so not to waste all those hours building the wheels in the first place. :madman:

I also quoted the tyres as I thought this may be of significance when factoring in how long sealant lasts in tyres, evaporation rates etc. Just like the climate you live in is a factor.



zipzit said:


> Ruscle, thanks for sharing.. But.. instead of making me go back again and re-read the entire posting to find EuroTrash's comments. how about just telling us plain....
> 
> How long has the stuff been in your tires? Thanks, Zip.


I didn't want to have to trawl back either to find out when I installed the tyres!
The tyres have been sealed since August/September 2012


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

The light-bicycle wider rims should seal up easier if you use the bontrager rim strips. They are harder to seal w/ some tires just using stan's tape. A little better if you use multiple wraps of stan's tape or use gorilla tape to take up more volume. But the bontrager rimstrip has been the best setup for hard to seat tires. All of this is "expert" advice is from my reading of the entire 29er cheap chinese carbon thread. I have a set of rims waiting to be built, but no personal experience;-) Good luck.


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## ruscle (Jun 19, 2011)

Andy13 said:


> The light-bicycle wider rims should seal up easier if you use the bontrager rim strips. They are harder to seal w/ some tires just using stan's tape. A little better if you use multiple wraps of stan's tape or use gorilla tape to take up more volume. But the bontrager rimstrip has been the best setup for hard to seat tires. All of this is "expert" advice is from my reading of the entire 29er cheap chinese carbon thread. I have a set of rims waiting to be built, but no personal experience;-) Good luck.


Its a good read that thread, just like this sealant thread. Yeah, I used the Bonty strips and it does help to seal them up. My initial tyres were Hans Damph which wouldn't seat properly, the Conti's were much better. I like to run with sealant any way as I like to make the stuff and experiment, as I like to service and be-able to strip my bike completely. The last and only thing I hadn't mastered was building wheels, but I ticked that off the list with the Light-bicycle rims. Super easy to build a wheel with as they are so true and stiff, I managed to get them within 0.5mm of true both laterally and horizontally which I'm well chuffed with and they are still that way after 7 months of abuse.

I've gotta say that the MTBR forums are a great source for inovations and new products. My next purchase is some of those Siccc Carbon brake rotors.:thumbsup:


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## max_cat (Sep 30, 2007)

Ok, I started this thread with a simple question. I became a brew aficionado as I read all the post. But I got lazy on my newest bike, and tried to rely on a store bought product, Orange sealant, to get me up and out the door the first day. What a mistake! I was stupified to have a puncture the first day, maxxis ikon, and hit it with air, start riding only to have hit again to get home. I find the hole. No problem standard stuff. It will stay sealed in the morning. Next morning? Flat. Inflate, ride, flat next morning. Three times! Homeless brew would have gobbled the hole up after one hit of air. Back to the home brew for me!


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

I just returned from the States, where I bought all the latex they had in stock at the local Michael's and smuggled it back to Germany. I go through this quickly by sharing it with my riding buddies. Anyway, time to make another big batch. 

I am going to skip the rubber crumb. I might experiment with other chunkulators in small lots. The reports (er, complaints) from my guinea pigs is that the crumb is nucleating the boogers. Same result on my wheelsets. It does not consume all the latex like Schtanz, so it works still, but an annoyance nonetheless. Here, we don't have much for large sharps, just berry thorns and a small amount of trail debris (nothing like the goat heads, litter, and cactus in the West). I think a little added thickener is all that is needed here.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

eurotrash666 I have been running without chunkulators for 6 months now and have had no issues save one and the sealant seems to stay good for close to 6 months so far. The one issue I did have would not have been fixed by any brand of sealant that I can think of. I have a very old tire and it got a leak during a ride last weekend at the point of contact with the bead edge. There was apparently a rough spot on the rim that rubbed a hole and not only would this not seal because it kept getting poked but with the tire on the bike, this is a hard place to get sealant into.

Like you, 99% of my punctures have been small thorns and the chunkless sealant works great on those. I have also noticed that with no chunkulators to bang around in the tire that the sealant tends to form a thin film around the entire carcass of the tire and my air loss is almost nil. My tires now lose about a pound every 4-5 days which is the best performance that I have ever had.

I was just thinking last week as I was changing that tire that the current mix, if it never got any better, would be good enough for my needs. Seals all my leaks, sets up really fast when installing a tire, lasts 6 months, very low air loss between pump ups, actually cleans up from the tire easier than most earlier mixes since it doesn't really set hard in 6 months. What is not to like?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I'm using both WSS and OSS (v1) in my tires, just got them out of ~4 months storage recently. Both tires had a little pressure left, the WSS rear tire was completely dry and the OSS front had a very small wet puddle left. 

I had inadvertently added ammonia in place of PG when I mixed the OSS up and later added the PG when I noticed it seemed to shrink from the tire instead of flowing into it. Adding the PG solved this and it's worked well since. My point is that I think a cup of ammonia might be a more appropriate amount to try. The silica gel grit was pretty evenly distributed over the inside surfaces with no evidence of clumps or boogers. I also noticed that the latex "gasket" that formed on the inside of the bead was very thick and robust, much more so than the with the WSS. I had pulverized the SG cat litter in a blender until it was similar to store bought pre-ground coffee. I plan to continue using the SG grit.

I haven't noticed much difference in the life of the two mixes other than that the rear uses maybe a little more sealant as is normal. Next tire change I'll put the OSS in the rear just to check it out that way. I've noticed there is a large amount of variation in porosity between individual non-ust tires (ardent 2.4's here) of the same brand, type, and size when run tubeless. I now would pick the heaviest instead of the lightest of two otherwise identical tires, hoping to get better sidewall performance. 

I'm going to add more ammonia to some WSS, it seems to keep the latex very smooth.

Looking forward to a another great riding season, hope y'all have a great one too!


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

Finally pulled my tires that had been converted over a year ago with WSS v1. Rear tire (Maxxis Ikon EXO) had a sort of green sludge coating the inside with little liquid sealant, front tire (Ardent EXO) had a bunch of liquid left. 

FWIW, I topped off both tires with more sealant a few months back but didnt bother cleaning out the old sealant. Could see where the sealant and chunks plugged up a bunch of punctures along the tread section of the back tire and had some nice koosh balls in both tires. The rear Ikon always seemed to weep through the bead, sidewalls, and tread so it makes sense that the sealant would be more dried out than with the Ardent which never ever weeped. 

Going to be putting these tires onto a new wheelset and looking forward to continuing to use the rest of the WSS v1. I've still got a ton of mold builder, slime and antifreeze so not going to the ver2 til thats all gone.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

eurotrash666 said:


> I am going to skip the rubber crumb. I might experiment with other chunkulators in small lots. The reports (er, complaints) from my guinea pigs is that the crumb is nucleating the boogers. Same result on my wheelsets. It does not consume all the latex like Schtanz, so it works still, but an annoyance nonetheless. Here, we don't have much for large sharps, just berry thorns and a small amount of trail debris (nothing like the goat heads, litter, and cactus in the West). I think a little added thickener is all that is needed here.


Sounds like you visited AZ and our goatheads and chollas 

So, what will you have in it besides latex? I know you toyed with the silica gel but can't remember what else. If it turns out that the rubber crumb is causing the boogers to form then I may try my next batch (which is still many months off; I could fill my tires at least twice with what's left) with just my proprietary dog hair blend...


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## aperion (Dec 7, 2011)

Been out looking for supplies today, had a hard time finding xanthan gum and propylene glycol. Would it be possible to use corn starch instead of PG? I'm not sure baout the chemical reactions but I know it's used as a thickener and fairly common.

Thanks


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

*Feedback on one of the OSS recipes from last fall*

Just got my bike down from the hooks in the pole barn where it was hanging since mid December, in a dry but unheated environment. I kind of expected some drying, clumping, space boogers or whatever, but when I popped the bead on one of the wheels I found the mixture to be virtually unchanged. After a few spins there was still a nice film coating the sidewalls and a puddle of extra sealant at the bottom. It was a little thicker than need be, but it was still cold and frankly my mix came out a little thick anyway.
I don't recall which version of the recipe is was designated , but here's the instructions I used:

Disperse 1/8-1/4 tsp. xanthan gum in 2 tbs. PG
Add 2-3 tsp. ammonia
Mix in 1 cup 50/50 PG/deionized water
(shake well between the next steps)
Mix in 1 cup latex
Mix another 1 cup 50/50
Top off quart container with deionized water (about a cup)

I used food grade PG and xanthan gum, deionized water and was careful to use clean measuring cups and containers, though I did use some dollar store ammonia. I don't have problems with flats, but I did add a small amount of modeling grass at one point.
I've been away from this thread for a while, so I'm going to catch up and see what's changed in the most current recipes, but I figured I'd go ahead and post my long term results with this one. If any updates pique my curiosity I may try them, but if not I'll make another batch of this.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

aperion said:


> Been out looking for supplies today, had a hard time finding xanthan gum and propylene glycol. Would it be possible to use corn starch instead of PG? I'm not sure baout the chemical reactions but I know it's used as a thickener and fairly common.
> 
> Thanks


You probably could use corn starch. You should be able to find xanthan gum in the baking or health food section of a good grocery store. I ordered PG in USP grade from Amazon, but someone in the thread found a much cheaper food-grade source. A gallon of PG should make 12+ quarts of sealant, but with friends like mine, that is less than it seems!



ric426 said:


> Disperse 1/8-1/4 tsp. xanthan gum in 2 tbs. PG
> Add 2-3 tsp. ammonia
> Mix in 1 cup 50/50 PG/deionized water
> (shake well between the next steps)
> ...


No change, really. My next batch will have a little more ammonia and no chunks. Got another 32 oz of latex on hand, so that'll happen this week. I have been out of ingredients, so a few of the fellas went back to Schtan's... I guess the difference is more noticeable going back to the commercial junk after using homebrew, 'cause they've been hounding me for another batch.


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## aperion (Dec 7, 2011)

eurotrash666 said:


> You probably could use corn starch. You should be able to find xanthan gum in the baking or health food section of a good grocery store. I ordered PG in USP grade from Amazon, but someone in the thread found a much cheaper food-grade source. A gallon of PG should make 12+ quarts of sealant, but with friends like mine, that is less than it seems!


well since I couldn't find any PG, I got this stuff instead: Peak (PER0A3-6PK) RV and Marine Antifreeze for about 5$ at the local auto parts store. So what I did was sort of a mix between WSS and OSS, no slime, but used antifreeze.

I did start to worry that one of the stores I stopped at was going to call homeland security on me for looking for ammonia and PG 

The PG is used to essentially keep water from evaporating, right? I wonder if there would be some kind of solution that could be oil based instead of water based, that should eliminate all evporation. Just a though, I'm no chemist though


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

WSS V1 with "pure" stuff looks like a good combination...

1 Slime
1 Latex
1 Propylene Glycol USP
2 Ultrapure or Distilled water

...better than Stan's but still practical and easy to make.


Ammonia - my biggest problem with Stan's is boggering/latex coagulation. Would addition of just a bit of ammonia to this version help? Maybe a tsp or tblsp? Any reason to _not_ use ammonia? Does it make that much of a difference with preventing boogers?

Thanks.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

If you're using latex, you must use ammonia as a preservative. The PG (possibly available relatively pure as antifreeze; I'm skeptical, but others use it) is a stabilizer. The xanthan gum is an emulsifier/thickener. Water is the principal solvent and filler. Together, they are all compatible ingredients.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

eurotrash666 said:


> If you're using latex, you must use ammonia as a preservative. The PG (possibly available relatively pure as antifreeze; I'm skeptical, but others use it) is a stabilizer. The xanthan gum is an emulsifier/thickener. Water is the principal solvent and filler. Together, they are all compatible ingredients.


Really?

Ammonia is necessary? Some of the recipes don't mention it.

No big deal. Are folks simply using janatorial/cleaning ammonia you'd find at a hardware store?

Might the ammonia already be in the Slime?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Miker J said:


> Really?
> 
> Ammonia is necessary? Some of the recipes don't mention it.
> 
> ...


Latex - as mold builder or any other form - comes mixed with ammonia to keep it from turning into a chunk of solid rubber. Adding more ammonia just let's it stay liquid longer. Think of it as booger preventer.

In keeping with best practice, the more pure the additive the better. Clear ammonia, w/o scent.

Slime is just chunkulation in PG/water, with maybe some thickeners. No ammonia, except for the "Pro" version, which also has latex and therefore ammonia.


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## mces (Apr 12, 2011)

eurotrash666 said:


> My last two batches have been like this. The local guinea pigs are happy, and since upping the ammonia I have had very little boogering compared to schtanz. I preach Purity of Essence.
> 
> stir 1/4 tsp. xanthan gum into 1 oz PG
> Add 1.5 oz ammonia
> ...


Are you using pure PG or the RV type which is a 50/50 blend? Thanks


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

mces said:


> Are you using pure PG or the RV type which is a 50/50 blend? Thanks


Most of us on the OSS recipe are using pure PG. I got mine from Froggys Fog Juice but I'm sure it's available other places since it's a food-grade additive. I got it off Amazon.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

I just made my first batch of OSS. didnt add any chunkulators, but I do have some train set sand fake grass etc. I didnt realize how cheap this really is.

stans is about $16 for 16oz or about $128/gallon. 

I bought the modelers latex at half price from hobby lobby for $8 for 16 oz, 1 gallon of PG for $20, and DI water, about $2 for a gallon. There was ammonia but so little is used as well as the xantham gum. It total it was about $10 for half a gallon (mostly the latex) or $20 for a gallon. 

I put a new tire on and loaded it up with the OSS, the tire leaked around the edges for about 20 seconds and then sealed right up.

Amazing!


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

goodmojo said:


> I just made my first batch of OSS. ... I didnt realize how cheap this really is.
> Amazing!


Welcome to the dark side! Next up: shimming your own shocks... Glad it worked well for you. Please be sure to post your results after some time has passed!


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## mces (Apr 12, 2011)

chunks: cut up plastic rope

FYI - I cut up some thick nylon rope for matrix building "hairs"

These coarse bristles seem to be working great.

Any update on how this has worked, and how much did you add? Thanks


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

All this work for homebrew sealant, and my simple mix works wonderful, and is super easy. 

I use some latex mold builder, then about 1.5 times that amount of ATV/Mower slime from Walmart. Then I use 50/50 Peak antifreeze mix, and stir it in until I get it thinned out nice and runny. 

I have taken a tire off and found 27 cactus spines poking through to the inside, and still holding air perfectly.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^ V1 of wss has proven itself so well, that I'm hesitant to mix it up with the newer versions. And its cheaper, especially when slime is bought in the gallon size on sale. 
Is anyone prepared to say oss outperforms wss?


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

In the process of sealing up new tires using WSS V1. Never had an issue with V1 and no problems so far this time.

1 part Slime
1 part mold builder
3 parts RV antifreeze.

RaRa and SB8, neither tubeless specific. So far used 1 yoghurt pot (4 oz?) in each one, will probably need another pot in each to seal them completely.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

So after five years (first post was 04-25-2008), we have come full circle, back to WSS v1?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I used wss for 2 years and aside from the fact that it dried out after around 5 months and it weeped almost constantly out of pinholes in the sidewalls it was still the best thing going. Some tires were worse than others, but almost all of them weeped. The oss that I am currently using lasts over 6 months and never weeps after the first time first day. It also seals up faster initially too and the tires hold air much better losing an average of around 2 psi per week. It is way easier to mix up the wss, but in my opinion the benefits of oss outweigh the trouble of mixing. I mix a gallon at a time and between me, my wife, and son I am currently running 7 wheelsets (14 wheels) with oss. In the spring and fall I redo all the wheels and have zero issues between. A gallon generally does all 14 wheels with some left over for the start of the next season. I do not use any chunculators since the only flats we ever get around here are either thorns or little pieces of glass. Either of which seal up quickly without chunculators. IN my case buying the pg from vet supply stores in 2 gallon quantities oss is actually cheaper than wss (although I never hit the sale at WalMart) and the difference is almost insignificant.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I am running both wss (rear) and oss (front) in 3 wheelsets, I see little difference in performance between the two formulas. Since I've been using food grade PG and adding ammonia I don't get the green weeping from wss, just a little hint of dampness on the sidewall. Oss looks the same, I really can't see any difference at this point. I haven't been using oss for a whole season yet, so time may tell more. I have been using silica gel for chunks in the oss. There were no boogers when I topped off the sealant in the 6 wheels a few weeks ago, about 2 oz per wheel.

driver bob- are you aware that 4 oz of sealant is ~160gm, about as much as a tube weighs. Adding another 4 oz will give you some pretty heavy wheels, although I'm sure it will last a long time. That's about four times as much sealant as I use.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

bsieb said:


> driver bob- are you aware that 4 oz of sealant is ~160gm, about as much as a tube weighs. Adding another 4 oz will give you some pretty heavy wheels, although I'm sure it will last a long time. That's about four times as much sealant as I use.


I've tried less and not have tires stay sealed. I'll probably add a small amount and see what happens. Are you sealing tubeless ready tires with only 2 oz??


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

driver bob said:


> I've tried less and not have tires stay sealed. I'll probably add a small amount and see what happens. Are you sealing tubeless ready tires with only 2 oz??


I'm with Bob here. My test is to shake the wheel around to coat the entire tire and still want to hear some sealant sloshing around after the tire has been coated. My 2.4 Ardent took about 6oz to get to this level.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

ElwoodT said:


> ^^ V1 of wss has proven itself so well, that I'm hesitant to mix it up with the newer versions. And its cheaper, especially when slime is bought in the gallon size on sale.
> Is anyone prepared to say oss outperforms wss?


The main point of OSS was longer life/less boogers. Functionally speaking (sealing holes) WSS and OSS are very similar. Adding some ammonia to WSS and using pure PG instead of antifreeze get most of the OSS benefits. Most OSS development now seems to be with chunkulation (that won't promote boogers)

A discussion in another thread - about wheel weight/balancing/sealant - points out that the extra weight of sealant does not behave like the weight of a tube. The tube is solidly fixed to the wheel and must be accelerated with it, so more weight+slower spinup. Sealant sits in the bottom of the tire when stopped, and is then distributed around the tire by viscous drag. It still takes as much energy to get all the weight up to speed, but the price you pay for sealant weight is spread out over some time rather than immediate upon acceleration.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

ElwoodT said:


> ^^ V1 of wss has proven itself so well, that I'm hesitant to mix it up with the newer versions. And its cheaper, especially when slime is bought in the gallon size on sale.
> Is anyone prepared to say oss outperforms wss?


How much is slime in gallon form? Im pretty sure that WSS costs more. stans costs about $120/gallon , WSS costs $40/gallon and OSS costs about $20/gallon


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

Coffee grounds instead of glitter?


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

I converted last week and was surprised to see how difficult it was to make air burp when using my hand to pull the tire off the rim.

What would you guys reccomend as the lowest PSI that you can run with Ghetto tubless...?


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Running Stans strips and regular tires I was good in the high teen's low 20's. Could go lower but felt too squirmy and I was worried about dinging rims.

I'm riding woodland singletrack 90% of the time so don't have to worry too much about rocks.

Using 355's and I'm riding rigid, weighing 160lbs.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

toot334455 said:


> I converted last week and was surprised to see how difficult it was to make air burp when using my hand to pull the tire off the rim.
> 
> What would you guys reccomend as the lowest PSI that you can run with Ghetto tubless...?


Depends on the rims and tires. I have light bicycle wide rims with gorilla tape and historically ran 2.25 ardents. I ride about 20-22psi (@170 lbs loaded). I burped once when I was under 20 psi in the rear.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

Nice, I'm not sure what PSI I like yet because I always rode them as high(40-50) as I could to avoid pinch flats. 

Making some brew as well, I put one scoop of stans in and it dried up in a week....
I know one scoop isnt enough but It still shouldnt have dried up that quick...


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

I've got Mavic 117's with velociraptor tires (respected front and rear)


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I use around 3.8 ounces in my 29er wheels. I use around 3 oz in my wife's 26er wheels. Using less requires more shaking to get the initial seal and probably dries out sooner too.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

driver bob said:


> I've tried less and not have tires stay sealed. I'll probably add a small amount and see what happens. Are you sealing tubeless ready tires with only 2 oz??


I'm using Ardents on two wheelsets and Ignitors on my wife's 26er. All three sets are true UST wheelsets, one each of C29ssmax, Shimano MT75, and Maddux MX400. I have never used more than 2 oz to seal a tire, and I have tried a lot of tires, both TR and non-TR. I just spin the tires for a few minutes and that's it. I have inspected the inside coating of sealant after spinning the wheel for 10 seconds and it is very well distributed with an even coat all over, and I think it also slings the sealant into the bead and seat interface. I have discovered it is best to initially inflate the tire pretty hard, like 35 psi, so it forces the bead and bead seat to conform tightly. I then lower it to 20-22 psi for riding. I think riding on the tires helps work the sealant into the pores of the sidewalls faster than anything.

I would think if your sealant is too thick it could also cause the kind of problems your are having.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> driver bob- are you aware that 4 oz of sealant is ~160gm, about as much as a tube weighs. Adding another 4 oz will give you some pretty heavy wheels, although I'm sure it will last a long time. That's about four times as much sealant as I use.


I'm a little different than most of you weight weenies as I prefer to load the tire up so I don't have to check as often. I ride for fun, not miles, so an extra pound isn't going to hurt me. Especially when I suck this bad already...

When I refill my 2.5" Butchers I put 4oz in but on initial seating I've found that anything less than 6oz leaves me with little sloshing around inside once they do get sealed so I usually put in 3 or 4 syringes full.


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

big0mike said:


> I'm a little different than most of you weight weenies as I prefer to load the tire up so I don't have to check as often. I ride for fun, not miles, so an extra pound isn't going to hurt me. Especially when I suck this bad already..


Like Mike, I live in AZ, and am not a weight weenie. Some of the trails I ride are off the main trails, and get little use. I have felt a thump, thump, thump, and looked down to see a cholla ball squashed flat on my tire. I have flicked it off and kept riding. I have taken tires off with 27 cactus spines protruding inside, and still holding air perfectly. I want there to be sealant when I need it.

I go heavy on the sealant. I put about 3/4 scoop of mold builder, and about 1 1/2 scoop of ATV/Mower slime into a measuring cup, then I add 50/50 antifreeze mix until it sloshes the way I want. I don't bother measuring even. I probably end up with about 3 of those "Stans" scoops of sealant in my tire.

I need to worry more about the 10 pounds extra I have on my gut, than I do about 4 ounces too much sealant.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

will normal latex paint work instead of mold builder(probalbly asked before)?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

toot334455 said:


> will normal latex paint work instead of mold builder(probalbly asked before)?


no, not the same.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

hobby lobby has 40 or 50% off coupons all the time so the mold builder only costs about $7.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

twowheelsdown2002 said:


> Like Mike, I live in AZ, and am not a weight weenie. Some of the trails I ride are off the main trails, and get little use. I have felt a thump, thump, thump, and looked down to see a cholla ball squashed flat on my tire. I have flicked it off and kept riding. I have taken tires off with 27 cactus spines protruding inside, and still holding air perfectly. I want there to be sealant when I need it.
> 
> I go heavy on the sealant. I put about 3/4 scoop of mold builder, and about 1 1/2 scoop of ATV/Mower slime into a measuring cup, then I add 50/50 antifreeze mix until it sloshes the way I want. I don't bother measuring even. I probably end up with about 3 of those "Stans" scoops of sealant in my tire.
> 
> ...


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

so today I mixed up :

1 part mold builder
1 part atv slime
2 parts water 
handful of lint 
stirred 
then added 1 part antifreeze

the antifreeze is pg and is concentrated is this ok? or does it need to be diluted more?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^that should work just fine, your proportions are correct.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Popped open the SB8 to add another couple ounces but there was still lots of sealant sloshing about. Just put the tire back on and aired it up then found 3 good size leaks on the bead. Held those at the lowest point for a minute or so each and the tire sealed up fine.

So 4oz (for me) will seal up regular RaRa's and SB8's.

Went for a good ride Sunday, bike felt awesome !!


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

toot334455 said:


> so today I mixed up :
> 
> 1 part mold builder
> 1 part atv slime
> ...


I would think it would work just fine. I kind of think the lint is a waste of time, the ATV slime will seal any holes just fine.

I tried some CaffeLatex sealant a couple years ago. I got a spine in my tire about the size of a pencil lead. I fortunately did not pull it out until I got home. It blew 3 scoops of that crap all over my garage floor, did not seal the hole, and the tire went flat! I renamed it CrappeExlax.

I cleaned everything up and remounted the tire with mold builder/ATV slime/50-50 Antifreeze. Tire was hissing like crazy. As soon as I turned the hole to the bottom, it went thiiiiiipppp. And was sealed. One little drop of green is all that came out. I have replaced tires and found 27 cactus spines protruding inside, and still holding air.

I think the ATV slime has plenty of chunks for any thorn or cactus holes.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Antifreeze - does it matter which type of antifreeze is used?

Will either propylene glycol or ethylene glycol work? 

Do you typically use the 50/50, pre-mix variety?

Is it a big deal if there are additives?


While I have some pure PG on the way, seems cheaper to just hit up Autozone for the cheapest stuff they carry.

Oh yeah, BTW, how much ammonia are you folks adding per batch?


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

I bought RV plumbing antifreeze because its: 

1. Premixed with water
2. Non-toxic

#2 was important to me with animals and kids around. I keep the chemicals out of the way but would rather play it safe.

I'm mixing it:

1 part Mould Builder
1 part ATV Slime
3 parts RV antifreeze

Nothing else, it works well and seems to be pretty stable.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

I added the lint for a few reasons:

most important one was it is readily availiable cuz the laundry I just did.
My lint is like super duper lint with tons of dog hair to help seal lol.
But I also thought it would thicken up the mixture.... Which it hardly did anything relevant in that regard.

Also I did not realize until now that the only people adding lint are using oss. 

Also yea, The atv slime is awesome, This stuff works WAAAY better than stans on initial impression. 

I was able to seal a non-tubless tire with a non tubless rim on with a real schotty rim tape job with this mixture. 
Im worried about the saftey of riding on this... it is essiently ghetto tubless with out the ghetto tube lol

Anyone have any advice on how safe that is?


----------



## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

toot334455 said:


> Im worried about the saftey of riding on this... it is essiently ghetto tubless with out the ghetto tube lol
> 
> Anyone have any advice on how safe that is?


I have not used the tape method but have used the split tube method extensively. I now have Sun Charger rims which use the Stan's Bead Socket Technology.

One thing about split tube ghetto tubeless, is that the tire ends up almost bonding to the tube and creates a really good seal. I never had any of my split tube setups ever burp.

A couple things I do when I set up with split tubes. I do not use soapy water on the bead. You are not seating a tubeless bead into place. I simple use a wet rag and wipe off all the powder that is inside the tube. Mount the tire, putting in sealant before you finish the second bead, and inflate. Also, I only inflate to 35psi and then shake the sealant around and I usually ran about 25psi front, 27psi rear in 2.3 tires.

I always found split tube ghetto to be one of the easiest to inflate. Although my Charger rims are pretty easy as well, and you don't have to use a tube each time.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Miker J said:


> Antifreeze - does it matter which type of antifreeze is used?
> 
> Will either propylene glycol or ethylene glycol work?
> 
> ...


The purpose of "antifreeze" is mainly as a low evaporation rate liquid, as well as preventing freezing in cold climates. The lesson of OSS is: the purer the ingredients, the less boogers. I found long ago that the better quality antifreeze had more, stronger additives and could coagulate latex instantly. El Cheapo antifreeze was kinda lame in terms of additives and worked better. The only real difference between Ethylene and Propylene glycols for our purpose is that one is poisonous and the other is not. Also, you can buy pure PG - but not pure EG, so PG it is. I note that slime uses PG, as does Stan's.

Premix is fine, just adjust recipe to reflect proper water content. RV plumbing antifreeze is low-additive since it is used in potable water lines.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

wadester said:


> The purpose of "antifreeze" is mainly as a low evaporation rate liquid, as well as preventing freezing in cold climates. The lesson of OSS is: the purer the ingredients, the less boogers. I found long ago that the better quality antifreeze had more, stronger additives and could coagulate latex instantly. El Cheapo antifreeze was kinda lame in terms of additives and worked better. The only real difference between Ethylene and Propylene glycols for our purpose is that one is poisonous and the other is not. Also, you can buy pure PG - but not pure EG, so PG it is. I note that slime uses PG, as does Stan's.
> 
> Premix is fine, just adjust recipe to reflect proper water content. RV plumbing antifreeze is low-additive since it is used in potable water lines.


Excellent.


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## KeithxCourage (Jan 31, 2008)

Someone that follows this thread and is much more motivated than myself should repost all the formulas. Every couple pages someone could just quote that particular post. It would make it much easier for individuals trying to find recipes.

I used the original formula
1 anti
1 slime
1 mold builder
2 water (roughly)

WTB i23 rims with stans tape (don't ask), 2.35 non ust Nevegal and 2.2 Geax AKA non TNT. Tires seal up perfectly. Very few encounters with sharp objects so I dunno how it plugs. The antifreeze I use has some water in it so I don't use exactly 2pt water. It comes out to be only marginally thicker than water. 

Question:

Any insight how would adding Xantham gum to the above mix might affect things?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Xanthan gum would thicken it, it takes the place of slime in the OSS recipe. Your thickness sounds right, the ratio of antifreeze to water won't change the viscosity.


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## KeithxCourage (Jan 31, 2008)

Reposting for quick reference. Kinda hard to read, but easier to quote down the line.

by big0mike
OSS v1c

• 16 oz water
• 16 oz PG
• 2 tsp xantham gum (1 tsp next time?)
• 1 oz ammonia
Mix with drill
• Add 16 oz latex mold builder
Mix with drill
• Add 24 oz water
Mix with drill
• Add Chunks - half cup of rubber crumb. Palm sized dog hair, shredded.
Mix with drill

by MntnMan
Dissolved 1/4 tsp. xanthan gum (Sprouts) in 2 TBS concentrated antifreeze (PG from Autozone)
Add 2 tsp. ammonia (grocery store)
Mix in 1 cup 50/50 PG/distilled water
(shake well between the next steps)
Mix in 1 cup liquid latex (Hobby Lobby variety)
Mix another 1 cup 50/50 PG/distilled water
Add 1 TBS fine modelers turf and 1 TBS coarse modelers turf (Hobby Lobby)
Top off quart container with distilled water (about a cup)
Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy
Put 16 oz of PG in a 32 oz measuring beaker

Dissolve in 2 13cc scoops of xantham gum - if you sprinkle it in slowly, it will totally whet. Mix with a stirrer.

Fill with 16 oz of RO water and stir.

In the final container put in 16 ounces of latex, one ounce of ammonia, and mix in the other 10 ounces of RO water.

After thoroughly mixing add in the contents of the original beaker and stir thoroughly.

Add in the whetted silica gel and other chunkulators.

by ktm520
32oz water
16oz pure PG
16oz latex
1/4 tsp xantham gum
2oz amonia
2oz modelers grass

by Wadester
WSS V1:
1 Slime
1 Latex
1 Antifreeze (straight ethylene glycol auto antifreeze)
2 Water
Variations include;
Using RV antifreeze, which premixed 50/50 with water and is propylene (nontox) instead of ethylene (poisonous)
Using Propylene glycol (USP) instead of Antifreeze (less undesirable additives)
Using Fog Machine fluid - which is (IIRC?) 50/50 premix water/PG
Using Ultrapure or Distilled water (less undesirable "additives")

WSS V2:
2 Slime
1 Latex
2 Water
This mix is a bit thick. Intent was to eliminate Antifreeze, which was seen as causing coagulation and oozing and to increase the chunkulation.

My current preference is V1 proportions with "pure" variations
1 Slime
1 Latex
1 Propylene Glycol USP
2 Ultrapure or Distilled water

NOTE: Slime is chunkulation (fibers, rubber crumbs) in a Propylene glycol/water fluid.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^The "pure" V1 is my favorite also. I add 1 cup ammonia = V1+


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

wadester said:


> The purpose of "antifreeze" is mainly as a low evaporation rate liquid, as well as preventing freezing in cold climates. The lesson of OSS is: the purer the ingredients, the less boogers. I found long ago that the better quality antifreeze had more, stronger additives and could coagulate latex instantly. El Cheapo antifreeze was kinda lame in terms of additives and worked better. The only real difference between Ethylene and Propylene glycols for our purpose is that one is poisonous and the other is not. Also, you can buy pure PG - but not pure EG, so PG it is. I note that slime uses PG, as does Stan's.
> 
> Premix is fine, just adjust recipe to reflect proper water content. RV plumbing antifreeze is low-additive since it is used in potable water lines.


I thought there was also some talk about EG AF causing the "green weep". I certainly have that ... but couldn't find the posts related to it. Maybe it was determined that the tires, not the AF that caused the weeping....


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I have had no green weeping since switching to pure ingredients, just a little dampness/dark splotches after setting all winter. Same tires were weeping puddles last year with cheap antifreeze formula.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

I have original WSS going on right now, with 1/2 part extra auto slime, and I didn't add any chunkulatory additives, figuring, that the little black flecks in the auto slime would probably be enough...

I pulled a fat goathead out of my Small Block 8 this morning, and I lost quite a bit of fluid before it sealed up. It did seal, but I was disappointed with how much leakage I had. I was plugging with a finger with the hole at the bottom, waiting, and then when I'd release I'd get another gush of fluid...I finally quit and figured it was a lost cause, and while I was digging out my tube it sealed up. :lol: No idea how much fluid is still in there...

All that to say, can we get a 'summary' post of proven effective chunkulatory additives, like the basic recipe posts? I've used pencil sharpener shavings, dryer lint, and glitter, and I never thought they did much, but after this morning, I'm thinking something in there would have helped. 

What are the proven effective additives of choice?


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

CommuterBoy said:


> All that to say, can we get a 'summary' post of proven effective chunkulatory additives, like the basic recipe posts? I've used pencil sharpener shavings, dryer lint, and glitter


Also dog hair, train modelers grass (50/50 fine and course are my favorite. It hasn't let me down yet.), rubber crumb, sand.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

Dryer lint with dog hair and an added bonues if someones leaves some sort of paper in the wash and ends up in the lint.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Most paper has lots of fiber and would probably be a good source.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

I rode super hard today, bit dirt a few times on the hardest trail I will ride on all summer. Potowatami if anyones from MI 
I run ghetto tubeless with
1 Slime
1 Latex
1 Antifreeze (straight ethylene glycol auto antifreeze)
2 Water

at 27 Psi, no burps whatsoever 
I am a firm believer now. 
Thank you for figuring this all out, this thread is remarkable.


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## essok (Aug 5, 2011)

I am trying to catch up on all this research (wow, 90 page thread?!?), for my first 29er build, which will also be my first foray into the realm of tubeless-ness. I'm excited about giving it a go, and already have purchased the goods, but have a question.

I would appreciate feedback/thoughts/personal experience reviews on using WSS V1 (as listed above) - specifically comparing the different results between using the auto antifreeze (cheapo EG) versus using the RV/marine antifreeze (and I mean the not-for-engine-use, $4/gal red stuff that goes in the plumbing).

I ask since #1 it's cheaper, #2 someone mentioned about "green weep" problems with EG, #3 unsure about the ethyl alcohol contained in the RV/marine antifreeze, #4 not sure where to buy the preferred propylene glycol USP.

Thanks!


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

I've only ever used WSS v1 using RV plumbing antifreeze. After the tires sealed I've never experienced weep an it's usually good for about 6 months before 4oz dries up.

I went with the RV version solely because it's non-toxic and have animals and young kids. While everything is "out the way" I still felt safer knowing that should the unthinkable happen there would be no tragic consequences,


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Mixed up my first batch of WSS and would like to top off a few wheels that have some partially dried Stans clinging to the tire.

Is that anything to worry about, or can I just dump in my WSS on top of the old Stans?


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

I'd just dump it in... what's the worst that can happen?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Only thing I ever worried about was getting the beads clean so they'd seat easier.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

driver bob said:


> I'd just dump it in... what's the worst that can happen?


Thought maybe super-premature boggering?

Yes, I know, kind of a frivolous worry. First world problems.


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## essok (Aug 5, 2011)

Just thought I'd check back in and let y'all know I was able to get a WTB Dissent 2.5 29er to mount & seal to my Bontrager Mustang Disc (non-tubeless) rims [I was scared about the loose fit - thought I might not get the bead to seat], with Gorilla Tape, a Stan's tubeless valve, and WSS:

1 part Mold Builder (thanks for the coupon @ Michaels tip)
1 part Slime (gallon size from Wally World)
2 parts RV/Marine Antifreeze

Sweeeet!!!


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

I want to put wss v1 in my car tires

Anyone try that?


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

I had a flat on my work truck, pumed a bunch in from the valve amd aired it up. That was a year ago amd its still going.


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## rbs (Sep 30, 2008)

After partially reading this thread I mixed up something akin to WSS v1. My notes say it was:

1p latex
1p Tubeless Slime
1p RV antifreeze (recochem economical brand - no additives AFAIK)
2p water

I did get far enough to add some Xantham gum though 

I mounted up two well loved Schwalbes - Racing Ralph and Rocket Ron on Mavic C29's that also have Stan's rim strips in them (I have a history of burping on these rims and the strips help a lot). I did a test by driving a steel barb through the tire (1/8" x 1/16") and the tire sealed right up. I did the test again the next morning and got some greensih fluid out, but the tire sealed very well. These have sat for a week and lost no air.

Last night I remounted a Conti Race King on a lower end Easton wheelset using a ghetto slit tube. The Conti has been run tubeless with both Stan's and Caffeletex over the last year. There was a decent coating of latex inside the tire.

I checked this morning and the tire was weeping fluid through the sidewalls. I found this interesting because I had never seen this with either purchased sealant. The pressure seems fine though.

I am curious why the tire might be weeping with the home brew but not the purchased sealants?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

It is the PG in the Slime, neither Stans nor Caffeelatex have it.


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## rbs (Sep 30, 2008)

slocaus said:


> It is the PG in the Slime, neither Stans nor Caffeelatex have it.


Ok - I'll accept that answer 

Interesting. It would appear that I can expect it to continue for a bit.

IIRC we're only using the PG for the anti freeze so I don't really need to worry for a few months.

I am thinking that it must also have something to do with the sidewall construction on the tubeless ready Schwalbes v.s. the tubed version of the Race King. The Schwalbes are not leaking and at least one of them has many, many more miles on it than the Race King. I'm estimating 800-1000km on the Conti and double that on the Rocket Ron.

Oh well. I'll use this stuff up and then try the OSS version.

I do go through more sealant than most it would seem. Two bottles of Caffelatex since the fall. Tires are my weak spot :eekster:


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

It will weep through the sidewalls forever. Mine never stopped


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

rbs said:


> Ok - I'll accept that answer
> 
> Interesting. It would appear that I can expect it to continue for a bit.
> 
> ...


PG - can someone confirm that the only reason to use the PG I place of water is for antifreeze purposes?

If that is the case I'd just use water or maybe only half the amount of PG in the non-winter months. I go through tires and sealant quickly enough that changing over in the fall is no big deal.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Miker J said:


> PG - can someone confirm that the only reason to use the PG I place of water is for antifreeze purposes?
> 
> If that is the case I'd just use water or maybe only half the amount of PG in the non-winter months. I go through tires and sealant quickly enough that changing over in the fall is no big deal.


The reason for using PG/EG is for a low evaporation rate fluid to carry the chunkulation. Antifreezing is just icing on the cake. No reason you can't just use water if you're changing often/not in a hot&dry environment.

I note that some tires will always seep, whether PG/EG/Water/Whatev. The green coloring makes it more notable. Other tires do not have much porosity in the sidewalls and never do let any fluid thru. YMMV


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

wadester said:


> The reason for using PG/EG is for a low evaporation rate fluid to carry the chunkulation. Antifreezing is just icing on the cake. No reason you can't just use water if you're changing often/not in a hot&dry environment.
> 
> I note that some tires will always seep, whether PG/EG/Water/Whatev. The green coloring makes it more notable. Other tires do not have much porosity in the sidewalls and never do let any fluid thru. YMMV


So what are some tires that folks have tried that do not weep?

I have used non ust Conti Rubber Queens and non ust Maxis Ardents and they both weep.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

All my tires used to leak the green PG until the sealant dried out. After switching to the new mixture they maybe leaked a day or two, but then sealed up. Also, the 2nd time you use the sealant on the same tire it doesn't leak at all, the pin holes stay sealed.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Someone once had the idea of painting the inside of your new tire with latex mold builder, then mounting it. Don't recall if it was tested.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

no leaking from many fr-3's or gaex saguaros. ardents leak briefly when new, or after sitting week+ (I've only used the LUST version)


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

yourdaguy said:


> All my tires used to leak the green PG until the sealant dried out. After switching to the new mixture they maybe leaked a day or two, but then sealed up. Also, the 2nd time you use the sealant on the same tire it doesn't leak at all, the pin holes stay sealed.


What is this "new mixture" of which you speak? There is only about 100 different ones on the thread now


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

16 oz PG (USPG pure-buy at vet supply houses)
26 oz RO water (or distilled)
16 oz liquid latex
2 oz ammonia (the clear kind without color or fragrance)
a small amount of Xantham gum (I have a tiny measure from an artificial sweetner)

Add xantham gum to the 16 oz of PG and stir

add 16 oz of RO water to PG mix and stir well. Do this first.

in a different container (the final one) mix remaining 10 oz of RO water with 1 oz ammonia. Add other oz of ammonia to latex and close lid and shake. Then open and pour the latex into the ammonia water mixture in the final container and mix well then shake. After thorough mixing/shaking stir in the other (PG) mixture then close lid and shake. If you want to use any chunkulators such as silica gel, rubber chunks, dryer lint, dog hair, coffee grounds; add them in at the end and shake again.


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

hans dampf no weeping, ardents 2.25 no weeping, maxxis ikon no weeping, specialized ground control - no weeping.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

You must have the Ikon's with the snakeskin sidewalls because the standard Ikons generally have one or 2 pin holes in the sidewalls when first used with sealant. They seal up right away, but they are the only tires I have ever used that actually squirt sealant out in a little stream. This has happened on all 3 Ikons I have put into service.


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## Rod (Oct 17, 2007)

How do you guys do for tubeless brew cleanup?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Just installed an 2.35 Ikon (exo), no weeping, spurting, or bubbling through the beads. Best tire I have installed tubeless, I also like the 2.4 Ardent.

I wipe up tubeless mess with a detailing rag, although the above Ikon had no mess to clean up, not a single speck.

The WSS V1+ I used is 1 part each Latex, PG, Slime, 2 parts RO water, + 1/2 cup clear household ammonia.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

toot334455 said:


> I want to put wss v1 in my car tires. Anyone try that?


Haven't tried it but if I ever decide to go on some kind of a rampage I'm gonna mix up 4 gallons of it and pump a gallon into each tire so the stop sticks don't flat me


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Ammonia - folks are all over the place with how much ammonia they are using per batch. From one tbsp to a half cup.

What s the deal?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Miker J said:


> Ammonia - folks are all over the place with how much ammonia they are using per batch. From one tbsp to a half cup.
> 
> What s the deal?


I sort of accidentally found out that more is better, but to each their own. Try it, you'll like it, keeps the latex mix smooth and creamy!


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## mces (Apr 12, 2011)

bsieb said:


> Just installed an 2.35 Ikon (exo), no weeping, spurting, or bubbling through the beads. Best tire I have installed tubeless, I also like the 2.4 Ardent.
> 
> I wipe up tubeless mess with a detailing rag, although the above Ikon had no mess to clean up, not a single speck.
> 
> The WSS V1+ I used is 1 part each Latex, PG, Slime, 2 parts RO water, + 1/2 cup clear household ammonia.


I'm going to give this mixture a try with my Racing Ralph 29x2.35. What would you recommend as the initial amount of sealant. They have been previously sealed with Stans. Thanks


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

mces said:


> I'm going to give this mixture a try with my Racing Ralph 29x2.35. What would you recommend as the initial amount of sealant. They have been previously sealed with Stans. Thanks


Brand new Ralphs (not Pacestar compound) seal easily with 4oz. You could probably get away with 2oz initially and see how it goes.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

so somthing unexpected happened. 

I was able to succesfully re-seal my tires with my hand pump today. 
Shocked and excited Ive got ghetto setup with wss v1.

Guess that spare tube can leave my camelbak now is this common?


----------



## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^I always carry a tube for backup.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

toot334455 said:


> so somthing unexpected happened.
> 
> I was able to succesfully re-seal my tires with my hand pump today.
> Shocked and excited Ive got ghetto setup with wss v1.
> ...


I carry two spares: 1 thick DH Schrader for myself and a Presta tube for someone else. I've given a Presta away several times (wait for the tube sale at Price Point to restock) and had to use my Schrader once in 2+ years on my current wheels. Where I was at it would've been an unpleasant 5 mile hike back to my truck without the tube...


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

toot334455 said:


> so somthing unexpected happened.
> 
> I was able to succesfully re-seal my tires with my hand pump today.
> Shocked and excited Ive got ghetto setup with wss v1.
> ...


You were able to pump it up because it had sealant left. If it had been dry you would probably not be able to pump it up, or if you tear a sidewall either, so I carry 2 tubes. I don't bother carrying sealant because I regularly look inside and add sealant if necessary, and my experience has been that messing with sealant on the trail is messy and futile most of the time, CO2 causes boogers so it has to be dealt with again anyhow, I could have quicker thrown a tube in and been riding. I just stuff it in, don't try to clean up any sealant mess, stick hands back in gloves, inflate, stow tools, go.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

Awesome
Yea I regualry check the fluid. 
I was able to succesfully sew and patch an old tire and reseal it too... 
It was an experiment done at home to see if I could do this.

Does anyone know if wss v1 is safe with kenda non-ust tires?
Theres the warranty claimer on the pacakge and I read some storys about the tires bubbling.

-thanks


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

toot334455 said:


> Does anyone know if wss v1 is safe with kenda non-ust tires?
> Theres the warranty claimer on the pacakge and I read some storys about the tires bubbling.
> 
> -thanks


I've run SB8's without any problems.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have SB8' Nevegal, and Slant6 that have all been run with no adverse effects. MY wife has 26er Nevegals that have been on 2 years with no problems. I pretty much quit buying Kendas about 6 months ago because I am getting tired of this attitude from them.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

yourdaguy said:


> I have SB8' Nevegal, and Slant6 that have all been run with no adverse effects. MY wife has 26er Nevegals that have been on 2 years with no problems. I pretty much quit buying Kendas about 6 months ago because I am getting tired of this attitude from them.


Yea, seems like the nevagals beeing a "best seller" got to their head, I got a deal on some 29er nev's so I picked em.

What did you like more nevs or slant 6?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The Nevs are a great rear, but very heavy. I have not really used them on the front. The Nevs are a "monster truck" tire for bad conditions. The Slant 6 is more of an all arounder, and kind of decent on front and rear, but I like Racing Ralphs (2.35) much better. They are way lighter (supposed to weigh 620 but the last 2 I bought weighed 550 and 570). The RR's are tubeless ready and they actually encourage tubelessness in their enclosed literature. The only possible downside to the RR's is they are very soft and grippy so they might not be as durable.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

Small Block 8's here with WSS v1 and I did have one issue: After initial set-up (two tires), I had one of the SB 8's get a weird wobble in the center of the tread, and after about 2 miles of riding, it exlploded in an ear piercing shotgun blast of green goo... I was sure I'd been hit, or was being attacked, or was in some way experiencing death itself... it was horrifying :lol: 

I think I either over-inflated on initial set-up, or the tire was defective... didn't send it back because I knew I'd voided the warranty by running it tubeless...I got another one, set it up, and have had no issues with either of them now for several months.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have had the same issues with SB8 and Ardent. I use a pressure gauge when inflating and it happened at 40 PSI because that is what I inflate all tires to when seating the bead. Neither of them exploded but from then on even if mounted on a different rim they have the same wobble. I think it is some kind of cord separation but you can't seem to see it when the tire is not mounted. I have not bought either tire since and am considering lowering my mounting pressure to 35 psi which seems pretty low. I find it hard to believe I could damage a casing at only 40 psi.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I also had the same issue years ago with a wire bead Stout (back when I used to go to around 60 psi for initial seating) and the Stout blew off the rim when I tried to reseat it to see if I could get rid of the wobble. That was when I went to 40 psi max.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

yourdaguy said:


> The Nevs are a great rear, but very heavy. I have not really used them on the front. The Nevs are a "monster truck" tire for bad conditions. The Slant 6 is more of an all arounder, and kind of decent on front and rear, but I like Racing Ralphs (2.35) much better. They are way lighter (supposed to weigh 620 but the last 2 I bought weighed 550 and 570). The RR's are tubeless ready and they actually encourage tubelessness in their enclosed literature. The only possible downside to the RR's is they are very soft and grippy so they might not be as durable.


My bike came with the slants theyre ok in my opinion with tubless. 
Before I converted I was running higher psi And I hated them and thought they were terrible. 
I got the nevs cuz they were on sale and i had them on my 26 and was happy (not amazed) but happy with them.

I think a combo of the nevs and slants front and rear respectively will make a good combo(like the velicraptor f,r)



CommuterBoy said:


> Small Block 8's here with WSS v1 and I did have one issue: After initial set-up (two tires), I had one of the SB 8's get a weird wobble in the center of the tread, and after about 2 miles of riding, it exlploded in an ear piercing shotgun blast of green goo... I was sure I'd been hit, or was being attacked, or was in some way experiencing death itself... it was horrifying :lol:
> 
> I think I either over-inflated on initial set-up, or the tire was defective... didn't send it back because I knew I'd voided the warranty by running it tubeless...I got another one, set it up, and have had no issues with either of them now for several months.


I know exactly that noise

I cut my veliciraptor tire with a box cutter the first time setting up ghetto tubeless. 
I stood there in shock for a few minutes.
Somthing that you prolly missed cuz you were riding is that I could see the air and moisture vapor swizzle around briefly before returning to their unpressurized state.


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## CommuterBoy (Oct 4, 2007)

toot334455 said:


> Somthing that you prolly missed cuz you were riding is that I could see the air and moisture vapor swizzle around briefly before returning to their unpressurized state.


I think that happened to my brain tissue.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

well I put the nev's on, there still a ton of wss in my tire after a month

My ghetto was push up nicely against the rim and it almost looked like part of the rim, got a nice trim on it then refilled with wss v1! and almost instant setting at around 30 psi


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

I have weeping for the first time

I used EG the first time no problems

I used PG this time and I have weeeping

The only thing different is I used coffee grounds the first time round and did not the 2nd.

Is it the EG Vs. PG that causes weeping ?
or do you think think the coffee grounds helped elimnate weeping?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I think the consensus has been that EG is worse for weeping than PG.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I have most of 2 gallons of propylene glycol (USP) that was given me to a friend - after he mixed up some WSS with PG instead of EG antifreeze, and had lot's of weeping. I think it's the tire more than the glycol. Been a while, don't recall the tire. I also wonder if the "it weeped, I switched to the OtherG and it was fine" would work if you just opened it up and let it dry, then resealed with the same mix?


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

wadester said:


> I have most of 2 gallons of propylene glycol (USP) that was given me to a friend - after he mixed up some WSS with PG instead of EG antifreeze, and had lot's of weeping. I think it's the tire more than the glycol. Been a while, don't recall the tire. I also wonder if the "it weeped, I switched to the OtherG and it was fine" would work if you just opened it up and let it dry, then resealed with the same mix?


I was thinking exactly this ^^^^ 
and is probably why my first attempt with eg worked


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## jimmybjj (Jan 25, 2013)

First time attempting tubeless. Crest on hopes, used scotch strapping tape and stans valves. I used wss+ "pure" Tires are 29" nobby nic evo snakeskin's. No leaking, no pin holes, no weeping, no anything. I know this may sounds stupid, but i'm kinda of disappointed i didn't have any leaks. I'm new to the tubeless thing and full expected(wanted) to see some leaks, now i didn't get to see the wss+ working and filling holes. I'm sure it works but i just wanted to see it happening.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Snakeskins have an extra layer in the ply. They are thicker. Less likely to have pin holes.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I don't see anything, a reply showed links to pics, the links took me to a webhost of some kind - so no soup for you!

Maybe try loading the pics to mtbr vs links to an apparently forbidden server.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Some thoughts on my brew...

I'm down to the bottom of my batch and I actually plugged a Schrader stem so badly I'll likely need a drill to clear it. Because...

My damn Stan's injector is sticky as hell. It's rare when I don't lose the black rubber plunger tip down in the tube because it's so tight and sticky. Any ideas on solving this problem?

Because the injector is so sticky I can't tell when it's being a pain in the ass and when I've got a plug of rubber crumb/Dane hair actually plugging up the injector. So I push harder  It was just a tube on the Mrs bike so not a huge deal. She doesn't ride often enough to warrant setting it up tubeless so I give it a squirt of my juice for thorn protection.

Anyway, I'm at the bottom of my batch and there's a sh|tload of rubber crumb left at the bottom which is what plugged the stem. Unsure of if I simply added too much crumb (1/2 cup), if I didn't shake it well enough each time I refilled (I'm pretty certain I shake it sufficiently), or maybe not enough xantham gum (2 tsp) to hold it all together? I dumped it all through a normal strainer and, if my notes are correct, there was around 1/3 of the crumb left in the strainer. Much of it wouldn't evens strain through the colander so I took a little bit and added it back into the strained batch.

I guess I need to think about adding less crumb with the possibility of just sh|tcanning the bottom 1/8 of the batch of it continues to accumulate. I like having the crumb in there although I can't say difinitively that it's doing anything.

Just some thinking out loud...


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

big0mike said:


> Some thoughts on my brew...
> 
> I'm down to the bottom of my batch and I actually plugged a Schrader stem so badly I'll likely need a drill to clear it. Because...
> 
> ...


I didnt add any crumbs and it seals fine.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have the same problem with the Stans injector. I epoxied the rubber tip on and every time I use it after I clean it I dip the rubber tip in the PG and it lets it slide easily and doesn't evaporate so the next time I use it it is still easy to slide.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I had planned on Gorilla Gluing the tip on as well but wondered if I'd wind up destroying the rubber instead of keeping it on. PG! Great idea. I was dipping it in the sealant which helps but it's obviously not how the sealant was designed to work so I knew it wasn't optimal. I'll have to get a little canister of PG and leave it next to the brew.

I forgot about the original reason for having to mess with it... I got a little tear in the sidewall that I was trying to repair. It was a small hole and if I'd been thinking right I would've taken the tire off and turned it parallel to the ground so the sealant could seal the hole 'cause it wasn't very big. When I put the tube in and inflated it I had a ton of sealant get squeezed out through every hole in the rim.

When I cleaned the tire out, put a patch on it, and it held air so I figured I'd see if I could seal it. The tire is due to be replaced and I've got another coming so I guess this is mostly an experiment in seeing if the patch will hold with the sealant inside.

Also, we were talking about how much we put in the tires. I put in two injectors full and started the shaking process. About an hour in (watching Revolution and shaking during commercials) it stopped sealing and the bubbles became worse. I couldn't hear any sealant sloshing around in there any longer. It had all been coating the sides, bead, and other holes. I had to put two more in and then it continued to seal properly. I'm running Specialized Butcher SX 2.5 tires. Pretty big and likely not typical for most of you.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The good thing about the gallon jugs of PG that I buy is that the plunger for the Stans injector goes all the way in except the very top won't fit. So until the level gets too low I just poke it in the gallon jug and I can't accidentally drop it in because the top is too big. Also, when it gets lower I just drop it in as far as it will go and tilt the gallon jug. That way, I don't have to keep a little container of PG and the PG really does make it slide easy and even a month later, it will still slide easy.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

big0mike said:


> I had planned on Gorilla Gluing the tip on as well but wondered if I'd wind up destroying the rubber instead of keeping it on. PG! Great idea. I was dipping it in the sealant which helps but it's obviously not how the sealant was designed to work so I knew it wasn't optimal. I'll have to get a little canister of PG and leave it next to the brew.
> 
> I forgot about the original reason for having to mess with it... I got a little tear in the sidewall that I was trying to repair. It was a small hole and if I'd been thinking right I would've taken the tire off and turned it parallel to the ground so the sealant could seal the hole 'cause it wasn't very big. When I put the tube in and inflated it I had a ton of sealant get squeezed out through every hole in the rim.
> 
> ...


Skip the injectors and dump sealant in

Put a little more than you think you need and check a month later

yea, you break a small portion of the sealed bead to check fluid levels but with a your tubeless setup(whatever it may be) and a good mixture it should seal right back up no problem

If in the case your converting a nontubless tire and rim without the ghetto method I highly reccomend you try the ghetto method. The past few times ive sealed up my tires its been almost instant,

I also think that shaking method is not really that important.
just spin the wheel vertically, and then horizantlly with one side up then flip it for the other side.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

+1 on just dumping it in. Yet to have a problem resealing, plus you get to see how your sealant is holding up.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> ... the PG really does make it slide easy and even a month later, it will still slide easy.


Yep, worked like a charm. Thanks for the tip.



toot334455 said:


> Skip the injectors and dump sealant in


F that.



toot334455 said:


> Put a little more than you think you need and check a month later


You haven't been reading the whole thread I'm guessing. I put in AT LEAST 8oz when I'm first sealing a tire and when it needs to be refilled I put in no less than 4oz. My comments about the amounts was directed at the people that say 2 to 3oz is plenty in a tire. That has definitely NOT been my experience.



toot334455 said:


> If in the case your converting a nontubless tire and rim without the ghetto method I highly reccomend you try the ghetto method. The past few times ive sealed up my tires its been almost instant,


Mine have almost always been instant as well using Gorilla Tape. This one took longer because I didn't put in as much sealant as I normally do.



toot334455 said:


> I also think that shaking method is not really that important.
> just spin the wheel vertically, and then horizantlly with one side up then flip it for the other side.


Shaking is EXTREMELY important. Shaking the wheel will always slosh the sealant up around the bead whereas spinning the wheel actually keeps the sealant from contacting the part you are trying to seal: the bead.

But, if spinning is working for you then as you were... :thumbsup:


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

^^^
No I havent read everything, just sharing my experience and what works for me.

How do you know your tires need added sealant if youre using the injectors?

I think openeing up the tire and poking your head around in there gives you an idea of how long the sauce lasts then you learn to trust it over time


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

toot334455 said:


> How do you know your tires need added sealant if youre using the injectors? I think openeing up the tire and poking your head around in there gives you an idea of how long the sauce lasts then you learn to trust it over time


I wasn't trying to be a dick or suggest you needed to read the whole thing. I just think most people probably laugh at me for how much I put in. I don't care about weight. I'd rather have the sealant in there and not have to worry about checking it every other week. Every other month I pull the front tire off and give it a shake. If I don't hear anything it's time for a refill. I typically have to fill them between the 4 and 6 month mark but I only put in 4oz when refilling.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

At 40 grams per oz, it's not a HUge deal, although I use 2 oz without problems in my 2.4 Ardents. I top off once a month, and never have problems anymore, and I agree that using more sealant is the only way to get those longer service intervals. Maybe I'm just getting old, but the thought of pushing an extra quarter pound of gooey dog hair around in my tires leaves me cold.


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## rbs (Sep 30, 2008)

*So hard to do, but....*



jimmybjj said:


> First time attempting tubeless. Crest on hopes, used scotch strapping tape and stans valves. I used wss+ "pure" Tires are 29" nobby nic evo snakeskin's. No leaking, no pin holes, no weeping, no anything. I know this may sounds stupid, but i'm kinda of disappointed i didn't have any leaks. I'm new to the tubeless thing and full expected(wanted) to see some leaks, now i didn't get to see the wss+ working and filling holes. I'm sure it works but i just wanted to see it happening.


Just stick a nail in it. I know this would be hard to do with new tires, but better in the garage then find out on the trail that it's just not going to seal.

Besides, this way you'll get to see the fix, and not just wonder what hat momentary hiss was out on the trail.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

big0mike said:


> I wasn't trying to be a dick or suggest you needed to read the whole thing. I just think most people probably laugh at me for how much I put in. I don't care about weight. I'd rather have the sealant in there and not have to worry about checking it every other week. Every other month I pull the front tire off and give it a shake. If I don't hear anything it's time for a refill. I typically have to fill them between the 4 and 6 month mark but I only put in 4oz when refilling.


I know you werent, I a sufficeint amount as well.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

big0mike said:


> I wasn't trying to be a dick or suggest you needed to read the whole thing. I just think most people probably laugh at me for how much I put in. I don't care about weight. I'd rather have the sealant in there and not have to worry about checking it every other week. Every other month I pull the front tire off and give it a shake. If I don't hear anything it's time for a refill. I typically have to fill them between the 4 and 6 month mark but I only put in 4oz when refilling.


This is exactly what I do when filling up my sealant. Put it how much you think you'll need but listen when you're shaking the wheel and tire around. If at any point during the first rotation you dont hear any sealant sloshing around, break the bead open and dump another scoop in to the tire.

I want enough sealant in my tire to where the entire inside of the tire can be coated when riding and still have a little puddle at the bottom. My 29x2.2 Ikon took 4 of the red Stans scoops to get to this level and my 29x2.4 Ardent took 5 scoops. Tons of sealant but it'll last for a good long while.


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

I made up a new batch last night and mounted up a new set of Hans Dampf rear and Nobby Nic front, both 27.5x2.3 Evo, Exo, TL Ready, Snakeskin, with 1" Gorilla tape on carbon rims using a floor pump. They aired right up with zero weeping. 8oz of brew in each.

2C Latex
2C PG
4C Distilled water
I also added my usual condiments a gusto: 1/2 tsp xanthum gum, 2 TBS fine and course modelers turf each, 1/2C ammonia.

Went out for a ride this am with no issues. Suck it, St an's!


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## druthomas (Aug 24, 2010)

Hey mntnman, how do you think your tires will hill hold up with your new brew? In respect to casing erosion.


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

Hey, Dru. This brew isn't new. I have run it on TL-Ready Schwalbes, Stick-E Nevegals, 2Bliss Specialized, Maxxis single ply Minions, and Bontrager XR tires, and have yet to have any erosion issues. I don't expect to have any this time either. 

The only drawback of this brew is that it seals so well, I can't proceed to run the tires with tubes due to the many thorns in the tires I wasn't aware of. I gave several tires to a buddy once I was done w/ them that tried to run them w/ tubes and in every case he flatted and could never find all the offending thorns/intruders.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

druthomas said:


> Hey mntnman, how do you think your tires will hill hold up with your new brew? In respect to casing erosion.


I'm not clear on what "casing erosion" is?

As a trail builder, I know trail erosion well, from rain / wind to ham fisted riders dragging the rear wheel through corners, but sealant causing casing erosion is a new concept to me.


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

Being that latex, PG, ammonia, etc. all are chemicals, they can and have eroded certain tires that do not use tire sealant-resistant rubber compounds.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Do tell...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

big0mike said:


> I forgot about the original reason for having to mess with it... I got a little tear in the sidewall that I was trying to repair. It was a small hole and if I'd been thinking right I would've taken the tire off and turned it parallel to the ground so the sealant could seal the hole 'cause it wasn't very big. When I put the tube in and inflated it I had a ton of sealant get squeezed out through every hole in the rim.
> 
> When I cleaned the tire out, put a patch on it, and it held air so I figured I'd see if I could seal it. The tire is due to be replaced and I've got another coming so I guess this is mostly an experiment in seeing if the patch will hold with the sealant inside.


The patch finally gave way. Kinda figured it would with all those chemicals in there. So I put on a new tire last night. 
The bead sealed quickly but the stem was a bear. Took almost an hour of shaking as refilling the tire with air.

But, after pulling the old one off again and after only 1 or 2 weeks and maybe 4 rides I discovered a considerably-sized booger in the old tire. That was quick. This leads me to believe that maybe the rubber crumb is actually exacerbating the the booger problem. Bummer.

I'm getting ready to make another batch as I ran my supply dry with this last tire change. Gonna have to rethink chunkulators...

Go just latex, no chunk?
Go latex & Dane hair?
Go latex & silica gel?
Some combo thereof?

I wasn't impressed with the silica gel but I think that was my first batch that didn't have xantham gum so they sunk to the bottom rapidly. That's a good thing for sealing a tire as it's closer to the hole but difficult at best for refilling your tire. Do you chemists know if the silica gel is of a different enough material that it would not make the booger problem worse?

To the modeling grass people: Booger problem? Seems that it would act similar to the rubber crumb in the solution.

Mike


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

big0mike said:


> Go just latex, no chunk?
> Go latex & Dane hair?
> Go latex & silica gel?
> Some combo thereof?
> Mike


I just use cheap ATV/Mower slime for my chunks. I have gotten ocotillo spikes the size of a nail, and it sealed it right up.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

bigOmike I have used the Park Tool patchs with great success. They were developed by 3M and the glue bonds to the rubber so well that after a time, you can't separate it without taking part of the tire with it. The ammonia doesn't seem to affect it either. Just make sure the surface you are sticking it to is clean and dry.

Back in my cheap days I was on a road ride and I was 25 miles out and my tire wore through to the tube. I put a tube in and put one of those patches on the outside of the tire and hoped that it would last at least 10 or so miles so I would only have to walk half as far. It held up all the way home with plenty of "tread" to spare. I tried to peal it off just to see and it pulled the rubber with it. Tough little patches. Also, they are the only patch I have successfully used on latex tubes-again back in my road days.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> bigOmike I have used the Park Tool patchs with great success. They were developed by 3M and the glue bonds to the rubber so well that after a time, you can't separate it without taking part of the tire with it. The ammonia doesn't seem to affect it either. Just make sure the surface you are sticking it to is clean and dry.


The only patch I had was a Slime patch and I was pretty sure that it wasn't going to work as well as a regular patch that you have to apply glue to. I cleaned and dried the tire well but I've discovered the same as you that a good patch becomes part of the rubber. If I'd used a better patch I'd've had better results. I'd like to take this opportunity to try to stitch the tire up but since the tire has very little life left in it I don't feel like wasting the time. Might be worth a real patch, though...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

A couple miscellaneous observations...

I was taking apart and old set of tires to remove the Stan's Strip (are these reusable after they've been in a tire for a while?) and put a tube in so I can sell it. It's been sittiing around since I got the Pitch and I wouldn't ride it if I had to. But, it was my first REAL bike so it's got sentimental value 

The sealant that was in it was one of my first batches using Rubber Crumb, Silica Gel, and Slime. Or, maybe I had the first batch in of just WSS and then added some of my first batch of OSS with the crumb and silica gel.

I pulled the tires off and both had a pretty thick coating of solidified sealant all the way around it dotted with rubber crumb and silica gel. A few boogers were stuck to the tread in a few places but nothing terribly big. I wanted to clean the tire out a little so I could put the tubes in without worrying about anything in the sealant causing a puncture in it. The inside of the tire was rough with the crumb and gel but I wanted to start with the smoothest surface I could.

The rubber crumb was solid in the latex mix. It didn't come off much at all. The silica gel, however, would flake off much easier. This could mean that the silica gel doesn't bond as well with the sealant as rubber crumb. Maybe it's not ideal for plugging holes?

There's a possibility that the WSS had solidified on the tread before I added my OSS mix causing the silica gel to just float around and come off easily like it did.

And, lastly, this particular mix DID solidify while sitting at the bottom of the tire in my garage over the last year and a half. BOTH tires had lakes of sealant at the bottom of them that were solid latex. Not an issue for a bike that is actually ridden but I expected it to evaporate before it could solidify.

Now, back off to figure out what my next mix will be...


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## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

MntnMan said:


> Hey, Dru. This brew isn't new. I have run it on TL-Ready Schwalbes, Stick-E Nevegals, 2Bliss Specialized, Maxxis single ply Minions, and Bontrager XR tires, and have yet to have any erosion issues. I don't expect to have any this time either.
> 
> The only drawback of this brew is that it seals so well, I can't proceed to run the tires with tubes due to the many thorns in the tires I wasn't aware of. I gave several tires to a buddy once I was done w/ them that tried to run them w/ tubes and in every case he flatted and could never find all the offending thorns/intruders.


This just happened to me. I bought a new bike, couldnt get the tires to seal on the stock rim using an old ardent that I had been running tubeless (never had a flat with it). Put a tube in and the tube was flat the next day. It didnt even occur to me there was something in the tire.


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

Has anybody examined Orange Seal? Latex, ammonia, water, blah blah... and silver glitter. I couldn't believe it.


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## PoisonDartFrog (Jul 8, 2010)

MntnMan said:


> I made up a new batch last night and mounted up a new set of Hans Dampf rear and Nobby Nic front, both 27.5x2.3 Evo, Exo, TL Ready, Snakeskin, with 1" Gorilla tape on carbon rims using a floor pump. They aired right up with zero weeping. 8oz of brew in each.
> 
> 2C Latex
> 2C PG
> ...


Huge fan of DIY (I ran ghetto tubeless for a good while myself) and I applaud your initiative, but at what point do you reach diminishing marginal returns? I mean, where do you get all the ingredients? It's not like you can find all that stuff just anywhere.

At what point does driving all over town (or mail-ordering) to get the stuff for your homebrew outweigh the cost and ease of just buying a jug of Stan's at your LBS??


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

When it is 25% of the cost for the same jug, it seals better, and lasts longer. That IS the point we are at now.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

For the same reason that people shop for good nutritious food and then prepare it when they could just go to the store and buy some frozen, prepackaged, processed crap to put in their mouths.


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## PoisonDartFrog (Jul 8, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> For the same reason that people shop for good nutritious food and then prepare it when they could just go to the store and buy some frozen, prepackaged, processed crap to put in their mouths.


Yeah, totally the same thing. Tire sealant = nutrition. It's a perfect analogy, no middle ground. "My sealant is way more nutritious than yours."

You sound like a million laughs, let's hang out.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

To me the analogy holds. Some people just want to grab something off the shelf and are satisfied with that as they go through life. Myself and others are looking for "a better way" in almost everything we do.

I am not dissing people that don't strive for a better way; just saying that there are others that feel the need. And actually if you did hang out with me, you would probably find it entertaining and enlightening.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> Mind your own religion


Nice tagline. Troll.


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## kidd (Apr 16, 2006)

hobby lobby, oreilly, and tsc are on the way to the grocery store. also got a haircut and bought some previously viewed dvds next to the hobby lobby


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> Huge fan of DIY (I ran ghetto tubeless for a good while myself) and I applaud your initiative, but at what point do you reach diminishing marginal returns? I mean, where do you get all the ingredients? It's not like you can find all that stuff just anywhere.
> 
> At what point does driving all over town (or mail-ordering) to get the stuff for your homebrew outweigh the cost and ease of just buying a jug of Stan's at your LBS??


Diminishing returns is specific to each rider, but I'd venture to say that a DIYer striving for a better product doesn't pay attention to returns. Oz for oz, my recipe is 15% of what Stan's costs. I get latex and modelers turf at Michaels, then I walk across the parking lot to Trader Joes and get xanthum gum, then I walk two doors down to Pep Boys and get the PG. That takes 10 minutes tops. I had ammonia and distilled water at the house.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

As an update to coffee grounds... DO NOT USE.

My tire was boned dry with a huge chunk of dried sealant and coffee grounds lodged in width of the tire. So bizzare. 

It fell out and I was like wtf that fell out of this tire?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

It was too good to be true since I personally make a months supply daily.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

PoisonDartFrog said:


> Huge fan of DIY (I ran ghetto tubeless for a good while myself) and I applaud your initiative, but at what point do you reach diminishing marginal returns? I mean, where do you get all the ingredients? It's not like you can find all that stuff just anywhere.
> 
> At what point does driving all over town (or mail-ordering) to get the stuff for your homebrew outweigh the cost and ease of just buying a jug of Stan's at your LBS??


It's the thrill. 
This is the wrong thread to try to us that its not worth it... when in fact it its superior.
People as reguarly check in this thread to see whats up... cant you tell by it being 93 pages?


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

I went DIY after too many failures with Stans. Mostly likely because the Stans I got was old, but buying it off the shelf you'll never know how long it sat.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

@ poisondart frog 

One key element to this is grabbing a 50 % off coupon for the mold builder.

they come on sundays paper for micheals 

but you can find both that and a hobby lobby version on the internet somewhere. 

Give it a shot, youll never go back like you did with tubeless.

Try the versio with
slime
mold builder
water 
and antifreeze 

its easier for a first time to see if it works


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^^The cashier seems to always have one as well.


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

Its been a year or more and time to work up a new home batch. Rather than reading the last year of posts could you guys give me some quick opinions on what the current "best formulas" are?
Thanks!


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## clarkrw3 (Feb 21, 2011)

I just made my first batch last night, and all I have to say is I'm IMPRESSED!! I was setting up a set of wheels for my daughter with the Gorilla tape method on a set of CrossRide wheels. Front tire blew right up a little seep at the rim but otherwise perfect and has held air from the start with no shaking etc needed. The rear was a little different. I had a Maxxis Ikon EXO that I had been previously unsuccessful in getting to inflate on a couple of different wheels with Stans. It seemed that the tire was just a touch too large at the bead to seal enough to get the initial inflation. I tried a compressor, CO2 etc with NO luck. I decided to try again with the new brew and at first it was the same, but I kept the compressor going and kept getting bubbles at the bead until finally in inflated much to my disbelief!! And once inflated it has head air perfect...again SHOCKED!!

My brew was
1 Mold builder latex
1 Slime
1 RV antifreeze
2 RO water

simple and very effective!!!


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## Ace5high (Jan 4, 2011)

clarkrw3 said:


> 1 Mold builder latex
> 1 Slime
> 1 RV antifreeze
> 2 RO water
> simple and very effective!!!


Thanks but thats just the first version I think. I made the same batch 2 years ago and was not impressed. I get a good bit of weeping with sidewalls, evaporation, and lots of boogers built up very quickly.

It wasnt all bad, it was certainly cheap enough and sealed wounds very well, I just was hoping there was an improved formula with less weeping and boogers!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Then you want OSS. Several recipes, all very similar.

My recipe
OSS v1c

• 16 oz water
• 16 oz PG
• 2 tsp xantham gum (1 tsp next time?)
• 1 oz ammonia
Mix with drill

• Add 16 oz latex mold builder
Mix with drill

• Add 16 oz water
Mix with drill

• Add Chunks - half cup of rubber crumb. Palm sized dog hair, shredded.
Mix with drill

• Too thick - Add 8 oz water
Mix with drill

________________________________
eurotrash666

stir 1/4 tsp. xanthan gum into 1 oz PG
Add 1.5 oz ammonia
stir in 1 cup 50/50 PG/DI water
1 cup liquid latex
1 cup 50/50 PG/DI water
Chunkulators of choice, I like 1 red scoop of rubber crumb
Top off quart container with distilled water (about a cup)

________________________________
MntnMan

Dissolved 1/4 tsp. xanthan gum (Sprouts) in 2 TBS concentrated antifreeze (PG from Autozone)
Add 2 tsp. ammonia (grocery store)
Mix in 1 cup 50/50 PG/distilled water
(shake well between the next steps)
Mix in 1 cup liquid latex (Hobby Lobby variety)
Mix another 1 cup 50/50 PG/distilled water
Add 1 TBS fine modelers turf and 1 TBS coarse modelers turf (Hobby Lobby)
Top off quart container with distilled water (about a cup)

________________________________
yourdayguy NEW

16 oz PG (USPG pure-buy at vet supply houses)
26 oz RO water (or distilled)
16 oz liquid latex
2 oz ammonia (the clear kind without color or fragrance)
a small amount of Xantham gum (I have a tiny measure from an artificial sweetner)

Add xantham gum to the 16 oz of PG and stir

add 16 oz of RO water to PG mix and stir well. Do this first.

in a different container (the final one) mix remaining 10 oz of RO water with 1 oz ammonia. Add other oz of ammonia to latex and close lid and shake. Then open and pour the latex into the ammonia water mixture in the final container and mix well then shake. After thorough mixing/shaking stir in the other (PG) mixture then close lid and shake. If you want to use any chunkulators such as silica gel, rubber chunks, dryer lint, dog hair, add them in at the end and shake again.

________________________________
yourdaguy OLD

Put 16 oz of PG in a 32 oz measuring beaker

Dissolve in 2 13cc scoops of xantham gum - if you sprinkle it in slowly, it will totally whet. Mix with a stirrer.

Fill with 16 oz of RO water and stir.

In the final container put in 16 ounces of latex, one ounce of ammonia, and mix in the other 10 ounces of RO water.

After thoroughly mixing add in the contents of the original beaker and stir thoroughly.

Add in the whetted silica gel and other chunkulators.
________________________________
ktm520 Second Mix

32oz water
16oz pure PG
16oz latex
1/4 tsp xantham gum
2oz amonia
2oz modelers grass
________________________________
ktm520

Part 1:
16 oz water
2 tsp xantham gum
1 oz ammonia

Part 2:
16 oz latex mold builder

Part 3:
16 oz water
16 oz pure PG

Chunks - 2 oz modelers fine turf grass

Mix part 1 in blender on low speed. Combine part 1 and part 2 in larger container shaking well. Add part 3 and shake well. Add chunks, shake well. 
__________________________________
bsieb

Water 32 oz (4 cups)
Propylene Glycol 16 oz (2 cups)
Latex 16 oz jar
Ammonia 2 tsp
Xantham gum 2 tsp
Silica gel ½ cup (crystal cat litter)

Mixed in this order: PG + Xanthan, let soak 3 hours (not sure if this is necessary but worked well). Then mixed 8 oz RO Water + Silica gel + PG/Xanthan in blender, pulsed for 2-3 seconds on high. Added this to my jug with the remaining 3 cups of RO water in it, then added the latex and ammonia and shock vigorously for 10 seconds.

The mix has an excellent consistency, much like WSS V.1. The coating on the jug after shaking is thicker than the WSS so I have high hopes. I used the silica gel because I'm more interested in sealing the sidewalls than sealing a sidewall cut. The rubber flakes look interesting but I need sealant now so I went with what I had on hand.
__________________________________


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Great job big0mike! Next time someone asks for the current state we should refer them to post #2332.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

The original WSS made with food grade PG + 1/2 cup ammonia doesn't weep any more than OSS. Seems like the antifreeze was the problem.

Choices!


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## zarr (Feb 14, 2008)

tagged


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> Great job big0mike! Next time someone asks for the current state we should refer them to post #2332.


As the recipes developed I just copied/pasted them into a text file for future reference. :thumbsup:\



bsieb said:


> The original WSS made with food grade PG + 1/2 cup ammonia doesn't weep any more than OSS. Seems like the antifreeze was the problem.


I was wondering if we'd find out what the difference was in OSS stopped the weeping...


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I have been running WSS rear, OSS front, in three wheelsets for some time, as it makes for easy comparisons. The OSS forms a more robust bead gasket, but that cuts both ways as it can make inflation after opening and closing the bead for inspection a bit more difficult. Overall, I observe no functional differences, which speaks well for OSS. I observe the same slow thickening over time, more so in hot dry weather. I'm going to try adding a little 50/50 mix of water and ammonia to rehydrate the mix next time I open them up, as long as the mix still looks creamy I think it will work well. I will thin both mixes in the jugs a little too, the equivalent of one more part water in the WSS and OSS formulas.

edit: I have found the silica gel grit in the OSS to be a pain, it clogs small orfices, which may be a sign it works well.


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## squareback (Sep 19, 2011)

big0mike said:


> Then you want OSS. Several recipes, all very similar.
> 
> My recipe
> OSS v1c
> ...


Thank you, but for us newcomers...What is "PG"?

DI water?

RO water?

I think I got *P*ropylene *G*lycol, and *R*everse *O*smosis water, but not sure if "DI" =*DI*stilled.

If you could fill in the blanks for those of us whose Stans has dried up, now that the nice weather is here, I would appreciate it. Thanks again.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

squareback said:


> Thank you, but for us newcomers...What is "PG"?
> 
> DI water?
> 
> ...


I think you've got it - except DI water means De Ionized to me. The real point of RO/DI/Distilled water is getting the water as pure as reasonably possible to prevent unwanted chemical reactions, such as coagulation (boogering). I can get ultrapure water - which is RO'd first, then DI'd. So clean it's nonconductive - until it gets some air exposure and starts sucking in contaminants - which it will do with anything else it comes in contact with - so that's probably too far. I'm thinking distilled is probably best.


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## Sasquatch1413 (Nov 6, 2008)

Is there anyway to elimintate seepage with WSS? Does pure PG and DI water stop the seeping?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Sasquatch1413 said:


> Is there anyway to elimintate seepage with WSS? Does pure PG and DI water stop the seeping?


Sidewall weepage is caused by porosity in the tire. Thicker sealant can help with that, or having the sealant work it's best (nothing wasted on coagulation/separation). Bead seapage is a bit different, but I think the same things would help that as well as getting the right match of tire bead/wheel/misc fillers such as tape.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Just made up a batch of new sealant as I was out and I had a pinhole in my rear that didn't want to seal this morning for some reason. I think there was sealant in there it just wouldn't seal. I'm guessing that since that was the ass end of my last batch that maybe it was too thin?

I followed yourdaguy's recipe which seemed very similar to mine but a little less water so should be thicker. It seemed fairly thin so I added a tad more Xantham gum and as I was adding my rubber crumb I had the drill mixing it all in as I was pouring. When I got to a point that I felt it looked like a good mix of crumb in the sealant I stopped adding it. Turns our I put in 1/8 cup whereas on my original recipe I added 1/2 cup. LOTS of extra crumb may be the culprit to my excessive boogering. I added a fair amount of Dane hair as well. We'll see how this batch turns out.


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## Liternit (Jul 18, 2011)

Just did my first batch using yourdaguy new recipe, the issue is that in my country its hard to find PG, Amonia and Latex. I could only find pre-vulcanized Latex, they use in sex shops to make dildos :eekster:

But the only thing I could not find pure was Ammonia, the stuff sold in pharmacies is a solution with 10% of NH3 it comes in 100ML bottles (a little over 3 oz) so thats like 10ML of pure Amonia when the recebi asks for 60ML.

Considering its so little ammonia I used the whole solution with less water as a result. The the Latex already smelled of Ammonia hopefully I added enough Ammonia to the recipe. Does the mold latex smell of Ammonia as well?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The mold latex smells of ammonia as well. The ammonia i use is in the house cleaning department and comes in gallons. Not sure if it is full strength though.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

The "clear ammonia" that you buy here is 3-10%. 

Pure (99%) ammonia, also called anhydrous ammonia (water free) "is an irritating flammable and colorless liquefied compressed gas packaged in cylinders under it's own vapor pressure of 114 psig at 70F". IDLH (immediately dangerous to life & health) level is 300ppm in air (.03% by volume). 

You should probably stick to the bottled ammonia water.


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## Liternit (Jul 18, 2011)

Yourdaguy thanks.

Wadester guess I used too much Ammonia, 3x as recommended. What are the down sides of overdoing ammonia?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

As far as sealant goes, probably no downside. As far as harshness on bike parts such as the inside of the tires, probably a little, but by the time it is watered down with the sealant, probably not much. Sort of like the time on CAR TALK a guy called in and accidentally put a gallon of diesel in his tank and wanted to know if he hurt the motor and they told him to just drive it, it would be fine.


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## Liternit (Jul 18, 2011)

Yourdaguy thank you, did my hear wheel today sealed perfectly with little weeping the mixture is a little thick will add some di water which will help dilute the ammonia.


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## galumay (Apr 22, 2010)

ric426 said:


> Disperse 1/8-1/4 tsp. xanthan gum in 2 tbs. PG
> Add 2-3 tsp. ammonia
> Mix in 1 cup 50/50 PG/deionized water
> (shake well between the next steps)
> ...


Just made a batch of this today and replaced my Stans in the Schwable Super Motos. Will report back how it goes

Oh, I added 2 tbs of Microballoons as well.


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## guggas (Jan 31, 2011)

subscribed


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Getting major weeping with my current mix which is just the basic WSS: 1 part mold builder, 1 part slime, 1 part RV anti-freeze, 1 part distilled water (or more to get it to the consistency I want). I run Specy tires and note that these have always weeped somewhat, but on this last batch...holy cow! Doesn't matter if it is the S-Works or Control casing, they both weep..actually..the Control does more so. My buddies are all running Specy tires and getting a similar result. Not a big deal...just wipe it off. But was just thinking that regular Stan's didn't do this as much.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The mixes with Slime weep. It is a known issue. If you don't want weeping, use one of the later mixes.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

To a large degree any individual tire you have with weeping issues with will weep with anything, including Stans. I have had better and worse experiences with Ardent 2.4s, for instance. I have not noticed much overall difference in the non-slime mixes either, certainly not as much as individual tire variations. My current ikon 2.35s are excellent, only some minimal bead area wet patches.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I think I may have the answer....the type of Slime I used for my most recent batch was different than my original batch that I had MUCH less weeping with. First batch used ATV slime, this time, regular slime...do you think this makes any change that could increase weeping?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Most of us have only ever used the one type of Slime.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^+1


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

MntnMan said:


> I made up a new batch last night and mounted up a new set of Hans Dampf rear and Nobby Nic front, both 27.5x2.3 Evo, Exo, TL Ready, Snakeskin, with 1" Gorilla tape on carbon rims using a floor pump. They aired right up with zero weeping. 8oz of brew in each.
> 
> 2C Latex
> 2C PG
> ...


I'm thinking about upgrading ( the complexity ) of my brew and replacing the slime ( expensive + weeping ) and ending up with what you listed above. How effective is the modelers turf in your view? The rubber chunks in slime seem to do a good job of plugging holes. Also, is the mixing order important, a few of the recipes get all crazy specifying mixing half of this then half of that, using blenders all that ... you didn't mention it here, but is that implied for success?

I haven't had luck finding the modelers turf either ... can't get it at the hobby store with my latex?

thx


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Trying to contribute ( not sure if its meaningful ). RE: storage of sealant. I had the simple sauce mixture: latex, water, slime, regular anti freeze. I kept some in a mason jar, it lasted from last fall, over the winter and through now. I had some extra that I put in an old gatorade container ( orange plastic, with white lid ) and used electric tape to try to seal the lid on. When I just opened it, the mixture had turned to a sort of gelatinous mass ... pretty sure the latex had turned from liquid to solid ... Anyway, for what its worth - seal your sealant for longer shelf life. ( duh )

Do most people think mixing the sealant is a better way to store it, rather than trying to store the ingredients? The key one being the latex -- which is more expensive, and potentially could lose its quality over time.

thx


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

If it is in a "sealed" container it lasts a long time. Certainly over a year. I would not, as a general rule, mix up more than I would use in a year though.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> If it is in a "sealed" container it lasts a long time. Certainly over a year. I would not, as a general rule, mix up more than I would use in a year though.


Thanks ydg.

Found a number of options for modelers turf on Amazon (love'em or hate'em)

Amazon.com: T1350 Woodland Scenics Earth Blend Blended Turf (Shaker): Toys & Games

Amazon.com: Static Grass Flock Shaker, Light Green/50 cu. in.: Toys & Games


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

slcpunk said:


> I'm thinking about upgrading (the complexity) of my brew and replacing the slime ( expensive + weeping ) and ending up with what you listed above. How effective is the modelers turf in your view? The rubber chunks in slime seem to do a good job of plugging holes. Also, is the mixing order important, a few of the recipes get all crazy specifying mixing half of this then half of that, using blenders all that ... you didn't mention it here, but is that implied for success?
> 
> I haven't had luck finding the modelers turf either ... can't get it at the hobby store with my latex?
> 
> thx


I spent 15 in SLC. I miss riding Wasatch Crest and Millcreek. But I digress...

I think the turf (or any other number of chunkulators) is key. Since I started using this brew nearly a year ago, I haven't had a single flat, and I ride 30-50 miles/week. I occasionally see small wet spots on the tread, but that's the extent. Flats are now such a non-issue that I really don't even look where I ride. I have pulled dozens and dozens of goatheads out of my tires and it instantly seals up. I have found the turf at Michaels and Hobby Lobby. YMMV.

I haven't found the order of mixing to be critical, save the xanthum gum. It's easier to whet and dissolve if you add it to a small amount of PG or RVAF in order to be able to better mix it in and "mush" any chunks you might get.

Go ride!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

ElwoodT said:


> ^^+1


I found some info back on page whatever that the ATV Slime has larger rubber chunks than regular...I am switching back.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

It is good here ... except when it doesn't rain and the dirt turns to moon dust.

Thanks for the input - I just spent the last bit re-reading the thread from about 8/2012 on ... my questions were all answered in there somewhere. ( I finally found the post where yourdaguy mixed the xanthum gum into the PG to whet it ... fancy! )


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## dtheo (Sep 18, 2005)

this lasted about 1.5 months for me. 
I've made several different batches throughout the past several years and every single one has been very disappointing as far as longevity goes.



driver bob said:


> I bought RV plumbing antifreeze because its:
> 
> 1. Premixed with water
> 2. Non-toxic
> ...


----------



## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

dtheo said:


> this lasted about 1.5 months for me.
> I've made several different batches throughout the past several years and every single one has been very disappointing as far as longevity goes.


What kind of conditions do your tires see? Temps? Also how much do you put in your tires?

If you dont mind what does longevity mean for you? 1.5 months between top ups or between failure or 1.5 months in a jar?

Thanks!


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## dtheo (Sep 18, 2005)

I'm in philly so they see everything, but it has been a pretty average summer - 80s and 60% humidity except for the other week where it was like the tropics of disgusting.

I put in about 4oz of sealant in each last time - 1p MB, 1pt Slime, 2-3p pinkish RV antifreeze from autozone. That was plenty thin so I didn't add water, but I believe the RV has that anyway. I did 4 tires - Ralph, mt king, Bonty FR3 and I forget the 4th but it ended up getting a sidewall cut so that was swapped.

The Mt king dried out the quickest from what I can tell. I think the Ralph too but I haven't popped it open, nor the FR3. 
I will say the good thing is no boogers which always had been my problem, but it was completely dried out leaving a coating around the tire. 
The batch I made was fine in the container the entire time.
think that covers the details...
thanks
DT



ljracer said:


> What kind of conditions do your tires see? Temps? Also how much do you put in your tires?
> 
> If you dont mind what does longevity mean for you? 1.5 months between top ups or between failure or 1.5 months in a jar?
> 
> Thanks!


----------



## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

dtheo said:


> I'm in philly so they see everything, but it has been a pretty average summer - 80s and 60% humidity except for the other week where it was like the tropics of disgusting.
> 
> I put in about 4oz of sealant in each last time - 1p MB, 1pt Slime, 2-3p pinkish RV antifreeze from autozone. That was plenty thin so I didn't add water, but I believe the RV has that anyway. I did 4 tires - Ralph, mt king, Bonty FR3 and I forget the 4th but it ended up getting a sidewall cut so that was swapped.
> 
> ...


I am using more of the pink RV anti-freeze next time; it is mixed with water so I can eliminate the distilled water. Mine will go a few months. I think I was loosing some time on mine b/c I hang my bike in the garage and it is VERY hot along the ceiling, accelerating the time between refreshes.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

About half the reason I joined up here was to thank all the people who contributed to this thread. To attempt to return the favor I have just a couple of observations so far:

I did something very similar but a hair lazier than the original WSS--1 part MB, 2 parts PG RV antifreeze. Didn't seal super fast, but worked fine for thorns and goatheads the first three months I played with it. About 5 ounces in a 29x2.5 WW. Weeped like crazy from day one, and took forever to seal. 

When I went to check it around January, it was still wet with no puddle, started using cornmeal for chunks--putting 1/2 tsp or so in before I sealed the bead or added sealant through the valve stem, same 1:2 recipe. 29x2.4 Ardent sealed up fine, no weeping.
Did the same thing on a couple 26's, no weeping, sealed fast.

Now I check them every month or two, and if they're low I just put the 'milk' in through the valve--no clogging issues, and as long as I make sure there's a bit sloshing around for the re-up to dilute, the chunks don't seem to cling together as some have reported.

If anything, I'd think the ammonia might be a good addition, although the original was still wet after three months, there was definitely a 'cured' skin in there as well. Sounds like a few people are having a similar issue as I am in this respect.

The other thing I was thinking was that perhaps some RV AF's have more aggressive anti corrosion properties, or a different active ingredient to do so? I can shake up this mixture of only mold builder and RV AF, and it becomes a rather stable suspension without a lot of effort, much different from the 'instant booger soup' described more than once earlier in the thread.


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## Dono1323 (Aug 16, 2013)

I am new to the sport, (bought my girlfriend and myself new bikes last week) and just want to say thank you to everyone that has contributed to this topic! I have had 3 puncture flats and a pinch flat in the last week and came here looking for help and what I found was amazing!

My experience....

* Used Eurotrash666's formula with 6oz in each tire (Lint/Dog hair & fine modelers grass add-in's)
- I laughed at the posts where people felt weird buying some of the ingredients and will add my funny story to the mix... While purchasing the xanthan gum a lady at the register next to me stopped me and asked if I could tell her how to use it and what recipes I recommend using it in. I laughed and told her it was getting mixed with ammonia and latex and going in my mountain bike tires. 

* Insanely easy to prep/mix/assemble (thanks everyone)
* I am leaking from one valve stem (only leak)
* I'm 6'4" 295, wish me luck that it hold's up! (I will keep 2 tubes on me at all times!)


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

BIG thanks to Eurotrash, Wade, yourdaguy, Big0Mike, and everybody else contributing to this thread. It inspired me a couple years ago to start making a modified WSS, replacing Slime with a burly industrial tire sealant we use in my business, supposedly developed for military use to plug .50 caliber bullet holes (that's about 1/2", kids!...dubious claim) and marketed for agricultural applications by Gemplers.com. It's pink in color and has LOTS of rubber chunk in it. It's been a huge improvement over Stan's, but major buggerization has been a problem, so I returned to this thread and was blown away how things have evolved.

So now I've got a couple tubs of latex, some xantham gum, modeler's turf, and PG on hand, but I'm wondering about the ammonia and rubber crumb. I've read 20 pages of this thread, but have to ask....How important is the "purity" of the ammonia? Is it worth it to spend $30 to get something like "Ricca Chemical 615-4 Ammonia Standard Solution, 1000 ppm NH3" from Amazon, or is the $3 scented household ammonia from the grocery store adequate? 
And rubber crumb appears to be the state of the art chunkulator....? Haven't been able to find it locally.... is this the stuff? Amazon.com: Al's Liner ALS-RC Black Rubber Crumb - 1 Quart: Automotive

Thanks in advance:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Store bought ammonia is fine, but try to get the unscented and uncolored types.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

I used some hdx ammonia from home depot. Faint yellow color. All I could find locally and it was 1.48 for half gallon. You only need a very small amount so it should be fine

I am also using the bedliner rubber crumb from amazon. We will see how that works out


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> Store bought ammonia is fine, but try to get the unscented and uncolored types.


That's exactly what I've been trying, and failing, to find.... every store I've been in has the same lemon scented household cleaner stuff.

So, at HomeDepot, is it with the cleaning supplies? I actually called them and was told they don't sell any sort of ammonia, which I found hard to believe.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

HMM? My half gallon of ammonia is probably 2 years old but I believe we bought it at the grocery store.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Got my clear ammonia at Wally World.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

We could just as easily gotten ours at Wal-Mart too.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

Home depot cleaning isle. I cant see a little yellow making that much difference. I only used two tablespoons in the whole batch. It doesnt smell like lemon.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Miker J said:


> Got my clear ammonia at Wally World.


+1 on this. I recall that it I had to ask for it - like they only stocked a little and it went early in the day.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

dtheo said:


> this lasted about 1.5 months for me.
> I've made several different batches throughout the past several years and every single one has been very disappointing as far as longevity goes.


Once my tires I sealed I don't need to touch them again for the summer, and the stuff I don't immediately use stays good in a sealed jar for a year or more. Sorry it didn't work out for you, I'm sealing up RaRa's, SB8's and Bonty tires. SB8 needs the most work but RaRa's (not tubeless versions) seal up just fine, and Bonty's are tubeless ready so no issue at all there.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

May have a record here...










The derailleur is for scale. It was literally STUCK inside my 2.5 Butcher SX.

It'd been there for a while and like I said I HATE opening up a tire if I don't have to. And by "have to" I mean I only open the tire if I'm putting on a new one. According to my records I haven't opened that tire up in about 13 months.

I had a slight mishap on the trial yesterday that caused a severe burp and I lost ALL air pressure but didn't realize it. I continued down the trail and but I could immediately feel and hear something was wrong. So, by that time I had broken every inch of bead and pounded a generous amount of dirt and rocks onto the tire's bead and rim and was forced to put a tube in.


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

big0mike said:


> May have a record here...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hot dam!
At least it come out in one fell swoop....

I punctured my ra ra on the portion in the middle of the tread. I cant tell if a knob was getting ripped off or a rock/ sharp thing did it.

I kept putting air in until it sealed. 
I am so happy it did I would have been screwed if it didnt.

Whats the standard protocall here. ?
Trust the sealant and keep riding? or take the tire off and patch the inside and then keep riding?


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

toot334455 said:


> Whats the standard protocall here. ?
> Trust the sealant and keep riding? or take the tire off and patch the inside and then keep riding?


Keep riding if you can. If not then tube it. Trailside patches are useless. You have to clean everything good first to get a bond. Best done at home.


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## mces (Apr 12, 2011)

Did you check that thing for a pulse???


big0mike said:


> May have a record here...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## random walk (Jan 12, 2010)

mces said:


> Did you check that thing for a pulse???


Or an IQ?


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## toot334455 (Apr 4, 2013)

random walk said:


> or an iq?


brains!!!!


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## klavius (May 28, 2009)

After 95 pages of posts I'm not sure if the main goal of this brew has been reached. The idea was to make something cheaper but better than stans sealant, but it seems until now it is only cheaper. 

There are now almost a dozen of recipes which makes it confusing. 

Is there a one and only recipe which works better than stan's?


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

Pffffffff....

The very first batch I ever made back when this thread was maybe 20 pages long was WAY better than Stan's.... this was just a modified version of the original WSS.

Just pick one at random and you'll come out ahead of Stan's.

I decided to take it to the next level and just made my first batch using Eurotrash666's recipe which you can find along with several other similar recipes nicely summarized for you on page 94. The main differences in those are the batch size, mixing order, and choice of chunkulators.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The only thing Stans does better is it probably seals faster, but all the mixtures/brews seal fast enough and they all last way longer than Stans and cost around 1/2 to 1/3 as much.


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## eurotrash666 (Jan 19, 2012)

All there is that's left to try is using the <shiver> corn meal. I am pretty sure OSS + cornmeal = Schtan's, except you can increase the latex and preservatives for longer life. I have a wheelset with year-old OSS that I rode all summer with no flats.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

+1 that. Been doing just latex+RV AF with cornmeal, and it works great--although I may try cutting with water to see if it will make it a little less 'weepy' or add some ammonia for preservative, it works very well, and doesn't freeze sub-zero.

Had a cup or two of cornmeal that was stuck in the back of the cupboard for too long, figured I had to use it for something. 

Throw a pinch or two of cornmeal in the tire before you seat it, make sure you can seat it, and you can dump just the liquid part through the valve stem (and therefore use a much larger range of chunk sizes) and top it off when you don't hear it sloshing around. I've been getting four to six months between topping off, and 30% RH here, as well as at least a couple punctures a month.

I only ran Stans for a few weeks before I started using this (mostly because I kept having to buy more because of a crappy tire,) and with the chunk it often doesn't even bubble when you pull a thorn out...


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

I agree. All versions are equally as good if not better than Stanns. I'm running equal parts of Latex, Slime ATV, PG, and Dist water (8oz each in this batch), plus 1/2 C of ammonia, and it's the perfect consistency. This potion is equally as good as my last batch where I used xanthum gum (which I'm almost positive Slime has in it or something similar) and modelers turf, and my current batch has the added benefit of being more simple. I have run it on a Nevegal and Ardent EXO, and now a High Roller 2 and Nobby Nic. No weeping, no flats, no bad days.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^+1... probably the best formula for easy and effective, no desire to experiment.


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## dje31 (Jun 1, 2005)

Indeed, 96 pages is a lot to pore over. Maybe a sticky poll with links to specific posts / recipes would be more efficient at this point. 

More importantly---and I did try the Search before asking, to no avail---given all of the mad scientist / home chemistry inventions listed here, are any of them more or less problematic with carbon rims? I'd hate to spend a bunch of coin on some fancy rims, only to void the warranty if they self-delaminate from a science project...to say nothing of personal saftey.

Don't get me wrong, I've been a fan of tubeless for some time now, being an early adopter...but I'm also not riding as much or as often as I'd like these days. So if it's just sitting around for days / weeks at a time, maybe I'll just stick to tubes until I start riding more again.


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## MntnMan (Feb 1, 2008)

No issues with my carbon LB rims in nearly a year of running homebrewed sealant.


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## squareback (Sep 19, 2011)

dje31 said:


> Indeed, 96 pages is a lot to pore over. Maybe a sticky poll with links to specific posts / recipes would be more efficient at this point.


Great idea, thank you for chiming in.



dje31 said:


> More importantly---and I did try the Search before asking, to no avail--


As did I.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

dje31 said:


> Indeed, 96 pages is a lot to pore over. Maybe a sticky poll with links to specific posts / recipes would be more efficient at this point.


That's why I copy/paste each recipe into a text file and every once in a while repost it here :thumbsup:


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Ok, here's some data for using latex sealant in an innertube - on a fatbike.
(The sealant was WSS original recipe)

Yes, I have been doing this - and with reasonable success. All my rims are old USC 100's that don't have the retainer lip, which is the only reason I haven't gone tubeless long ago.

So, the day after a ride I came back to a flat front tire {sigh}. At next opportunity, I pulled it apart and put a bit of air in the tube. Not one, not two, but SIX holes. Loverly. The toothpicks are just markers.









Found these in the tire:









But later, when I was checking the patches - I found these:


























I hadn't yet pumped the tube up to 4.8" size, so I watched these as I did - and the first one started to leak, but the other two stayed tight. I went ahead and patched all three to be sure, but there were a total of NINE holes in that tube - but I finished my ride, with slow leakage finally taking it's toll. YMMV. Cross posted to a few places.


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

wadester said:


> Ok, here's some data for using latex sealant in an innertube - on a fatbike.
> (The sealant was WSS original recipe)
> 
> Yes, I have been doing this - and with reasonable success. All my rims are old USC 100's that don't have the retainer lip, which is the only reason I haven't gone tubeless long ago.
> ...


My experience has been that sealant in a tube is not as effective as sealant in a tire. Probably because the hole in the tube can stretch.

I have taken off tires that had 27 cactus spines in them, and holding air perfectly, using 1 part latex, 2 parts ATV slime, and 50/50 antifreeze water mix until a very sloshy consistency is reached(I don't measure it)


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

doismellbacon said:


> Pffffffff....
> 
> I decided to take it to the next level and just made my first batch using Eurotrash666's recipe which you can find along with several other similar recipes nicely summarized for you on page 94. The main differences in those are the batch size, mixing order, and choice of chunkulators.


Page 94?!?!? How many posts per page do you have? My computer only shows 60 pages to this thread.



big0mike said:


> That's why I copy/paste each recipe into a text file and every once in a while repost it here


I'm ready to make a new batch, and was going to make regular WSS, but will search for a newer version. Care to repost the latest and greatest recipe? 
Thanks


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

yourdaguy said:


> Great job big0mike! Next time someone asks for the current state we should refer them to post #2332.


Found the recipe lists. My page 59...


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

twowheelsdown2002 said:


> My experience has been that sealant in a tube is not as effective as sealant in a tire. Probably because the hole in the tube can stretch.


Quite true. The thicker/stronger the air barrier, the better sealant works. But if you don't/can't go tubeless - sealant in a tube does work. I would love to get similar pics of sealant plugs in a tire, but haven't seen one for sure as yet.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

GR1822 said:


> Found the recipe lists. My page 59...


Yep, there ya go. Post # 2332


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

wadester said:


> Quite true. The thicker/stronger the air barrier, the better sealant works. But if you don't/can't go tubeless - sealant in a tube does work. I would love to get similar pics of sealant plugs in a tire, but haven't seen one for sure as yet.


^^x2 My kids bikes have have had various versions of the original recipe, and in my experience it outperforms slime.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Hey guys I plan on running custom studded winter tires tubeless this winter and I was wondering if some sealant like Stan's or Slime would make some chemical reaction to the grade 12.9 alloy steel of the studs. Since I'm gonna run only one set and for a few months, it's not worth it to make a brew, so I'll go standard.

What would be the best considering I'm gonna need it to last at least 4 months, maybe riding once a week in sub-zero temperature, bike is gonna be stored in a relatively humid but heated basement and the main use of the sealant is for tire sealing (using a regular clincher folding, not a butyl inner layer one), not worried about punctures.

Thanks in advance


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^all the tire studs I've seen are plated to resist corrosion. Not sure how the sealant will be in contact with the studs but it sounds interesting. Are you using car tire studs?


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

David C said:


> Hey guys I plan on running custom studded winter tires tubeless this winter and I was wondering if some sealant like Stan's or Slime would make some chemical reaction to the grade 12.9 alloy steel of the studs. Since I'm gonna run only one set and for a few months, it's not worth it to make a brew, so I'll go standard.
> 
> What would be the best considering I'm gonna need it to last at least 4 months, maybe riding once a week in sub-zero temperature, bike is gonna be stored in a relatively humid but heated basement and the main use of the sealant is for tire sealing (using a regular clincher folding, not a butyl inner layer one), not worried about punctures.
> 
> Thanks in advance


Huge tubeless fan for many years. Won't leave home to home without'm.

But, for winter riding with studs I find there is no performance benefits. In several years of winter riding I've never flatted.

Might be better off just sticking with tubes for the winter.


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## Treetrimmer (Dec 8, 2008)

I have had great luck with the original WSS and many variation depending on what I had in the garage with really good luck -boogers. I found that a recipe is not necessary as long as there was Slime and Mold Builder, I basically just went by consistency with no measuring after the first year of using this brew. So I pulled up this thread again and found the OSS, in particular the V1c. I am really motivated to try a new brew especially if it addresses the boogers. I divided all of the ingredients for a smaller test batch and used glitter and cat hair for the chunks. Then installed a RR with a known hole near the center treads. When I set the bead I found the whole moved the wheel so that the juice was covering it. To my surprise it just kept coming out starting at 40psi down to 15. This was a nail size hole. Pulled everything apart and found a mound3/4"dia.X3/8" tall) of chunks covering the breach. What did I do wrong? The only major difference is no slime from what I can see.

Here is what I did
2oz Di Water
2oz 50/50 PG - maybe this is a problem?
1/8 tsp Xantham Gum
.25oz Ammonia - not pure but old lemon scented I had laying around
Mixed as instructions stated.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

bsieb said:


> ^all the tire studs I've seen are plated to resist corrosion. Not sure how the sealant will be in contact with the studs but it sounds interesting. Are you using car tire studs?


I'm using M4 bolts with button head, black oil finish. The heads of the screws are inside the tire, so they will be in direct contact with the sealant. The point of using sealant here is to drop the weight of a tube plus tire liner and also to eliminate the possibility of tube failure due to the screw heads rubbing (thus using a tire liner).

I will ride mostly on ice, or frozen hard pack snow. But still I have to do 3.5km each way to ride to and back from the trails on the streets, hopefully there is gonna be a nice thick layer of snow in the bike path and I won't have to ride too much directly on the pavement.


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## KGAmoto (Aug 6, 2008)

klavius said:


> After 95 pages of posts I'm not sure if the main goal of this brew has been reached. The idea was to make something cheaper but better than stans sealant, but it seems until now it is only cheaper.
> 
> There are now almost a dozen of recipes which makes it confusing.
> 
> Is there a one and only recipe which works better than stan's?


I'd like to give this a bump - i was directed to this thread when I asked the question about "Slime VS Stan's", but when something gets to be 95 pages long and progresses over three years, it'd be nice to summarize the thread with "what works best, after all of this research, testing & time", stick it and close it.

Pretty curious after spending $28 on a bottle of Stan's yesterday. It works very well, just doesn't last long for me.

(I didn't even realize this post was in the 29'r section - shouldn't it be moved over to Wheels & Tires?)


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Ha! Been said before - but the work to summarize this long, strange trip would take a while.

Why is it in 29ers? Well, this started back when the experimentalists were all there - before 29ers went mainstream and the conservatives moved in.

The peeps that need the info still find the thread and now & then somebody gets a wild hair and does some innovation.


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## klavius (May 28, 2009)

Well, I decided to make some WSS brew as original and I must say that I'm impressed. This was my first time converting to tubeless and I never expected it to be so easy.

Kenda Excavator DTC 2.35 front
CST Caballero 2.25 rear (this is a nice unexpensive tire, $24)
ZTR Flow Rims with gorilla tape

1 part natural liquid latex
1 part slime tire sealant
1 part cheap coolant (could not find PG)
1 part water

The resulting mix was kind of foamy/frothy/sparkling after very enthusiastic shaking.

It was posible to inflate using floor pump, and then inject 3oz of sealant. Some shaking to the tire and viola it retained air with no aparent leaks.

At 4th day some sidewall weeping apeared and tires lost pressure. After inflating again sidewall on rear tire leaked air but it fixed by shaking the tire.

At 5th day I went on a park ride and everything worked fine, no problems. Since then, 2 weeks ago, no pressure loss. I'm trying 22psi front and 29psi rear.

I apollogize if my previous comment about thinking that all recipes seemed to be just cheaper but not better than stans sealant sounded agressive or discredit.

But now I can say WSS brew simply works and it works fine. It seals the tire.

Now I will experience the longevity of the sealant. Weather here all year is around 1-33 degree celcius ( 33 - 91 degree farenheit).

Thank you everyone for sharing this

PD: Sorry about the poor english


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

For matrix building chunks, I've been using cut up bungee cord with great success.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Obviously you are not using a stan's injector to push that in through the presta valve.. but it looks like the ideal solution for those that break the bead on one side and dump the mix in.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

Or get these valves, and never have to break a bead again, no matter what is in your goo:

Black anodized aluminum valve

I have them on both of my bikes, and everything about tubeless is better: setting it up, more stable when airing, easier to add sealant.

Schrader dominance!


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

Those look nice. Removable core? I assume you'd have to drill a presta rim....right?


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

Yes removable core. 
Yes drill a presta rim. 
Yes way more awesome!


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/threaded-schrader-valve-ghetto-tubeless-621638.html

^^Thread from AZ forum w/ more info on the schrader valve^^


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

*Do Not Use Rubber Crumb*

OK, I'm officially going to say DO NOT USE RUBBER CRUMB!

I'm putting on new tires as we speak and found another enormous booger in my front tire. And that's after only a month since I found the last enormous booger.

Don't know why but it seems to be causing the boogers quickly. With the others I had always checked after a flat where I used CO2 to inflate so assumed it was 'cause of that. But, that doesn't appear to be so.

I'm bummed... If anyone else was using Rubber Crumb I'd love to hear your experiences.

My current recipe (following someone else's guidelines) was:

OSS v1d
16 oz PG
26 oz RO water
16 oz liquid latex
2 oz ammonia
2 tsp Xantham gum

Add xantham gum to the 16 oz of PG and stir

Add 16 oz of RO water to PG mix and stir well.

In a different container mix remaining 10 oz of RO water with 2 oz ammonia.

Pour the latex into the ammonia water mixture in the final container and mix well then shake.

Stir in the other (PG) mixture then close lid and shake.

1/8 cup of rubber crumb
Flavor with Dane hair until you can see it in the mixture.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> OK, I'm officially going to say DO NOT USE RUBBER CRUMB!
> 
> I'm putting on new tires as we speak and found another enormous booger in my front tire. And that's after only a month since I found the last enormous booger.
> 
> ...


Well, crap. I just mixed a batch of sealant - with rubber crumb. Guess I'll be generating data.
Recipe, by volume, in order of addition;
16 oz latex
16 oz slime tubeless
16 oz propylene glycol
8 oz clear ammonia
16 oz distilled water
8 oz rubber crumb
handful of dryer lint


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

I'll see your crap, and raise you a sh"t. 

I mixed up some original WSS just a week week ago. 
16oz latex
24oz Atv slime
32oz tap water
Oh well...


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Oh, well, indeed.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

My latest batch was as follows:


16 oz latex
32 oz distilled water
16 oz propylene glycol
2 oz ammonia
small amount of rubber crumb

I noticed that this batch set up fine but had poor sealing properties for anything but pin holes. I added some 16oz of Bike Slime to supplement (had on hand).

I have plenty of cat hair I could use but honestly seems like it would make a big hair ball...

If you think about ATV slime...it has plenty of rubber crumbs....so Why is the AL's bed liner boogering more?

and yes I have premature boogers too from the crumb... checked after 4 weeks or so.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

ljracer said:


> small amount of rubber crumb
> 
> If you think about ATV slime...it has plenty of rubber crumbs....so Why is the AL's bed liner boogering more?
> 
> and yes I have premature boogers too from the crumb... checked after 4 weeks or so.


When you expose fresh rubber surface - like patching a tube - that surface is active, and will oxidize if left open. They probably put some kind of "preservative" on it, or "antibloom compound". When you get a new tire, there is a coating on it, for instance.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> Well, crap. I just mixed a batch of sealant - with rubber crumb. Guess I'll be generating data.
> Recipe, by volume, in order of addition;
> 16 oz latex
> 16 oz slime tubeless
> ...


Maybe you'll have better luck than I. I did not have the "good" ammonia. And I added a little bit of red food coloring. Either could be the culprit.



ljracer said:


> If you think about ATV slime...it has plenty of rubber crumbs....so Why is the AL's bed liner boogering more?


Good question...



wadester said:


> When you expose fresh rubber surface - like patching a tube - that surface is active, and will oxidize if left open. They probably put some kind of "preservative" on it, or "antibloom compound". When you get a new tire, there is a coating on it, for instance.


Are you thinking of the "mold release" type compound on commercial tires? Interesting theory.

Hopefully, a couple of you can confirm or deny the overzealous boogering I've seen. I was hoping it was a fluke but huge boogers 3 or 4 times in a row is no longer a fluke.

Haven't heard anything of the like from the "modeler's turf" camp, right? Maybe that stuff is made of something different that rubber? Silicone? Plastic?

I'll double up on the Great Dane hair for now. Gotta make a new batch as I just used the remainder on two new Chunky Monkeys I just sealed...


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## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

Perhaps eurotrash666 has commented on this and I missed it, but I'd be curious to know what it is chemically that triggers the sealant solution to congeal when it plugs a hole... and how that relates to booger formation. 
Does it follow that we need the most inert "chunkulator" possible? if that was the case, it seems like the glitter should have worked better. I'm not aware that the turf users are having boogering. Perhaps the modelers turf is inert/nonreactive? Is there a connection between hair/lint and boogering?
Just thinking out loud as I prepare to make my first batch of the wonder sauce...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Stopped at Hobby Lobby and found some modelers turf. Not quite what I was expecting. Seems VERY small, even the coarse.

Also found something called Wax Crystals that look to be the desired size. Not sure what kind of interaction to expect between wax and everything else. Thoughts?

Sent from my Thunderbolt via TapATalk 4


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## galumay (Apr 22, 2010)

ric426 said:


> Disperse 1/8-1/4 tsp. xanthan gum in 2 tbs. PG
> Add 2-3 tsp. ammonia
> Mix in 1 cup 50/50 PG/deionized water
> (shake well between the next steps)
> ...





galumay said:


> Just made a batch of this today and replaced my Stans in the Schwable Super Motos. Will report back how it goes
> 
> Oh, I added 2 tbs of Microballoons as well.


Well its 3 months since I made my batch and added it to my tyres, my rear tyre had developed a fast, slow leak and on checking in a tub of water there was a hole in the sidewall - probably a small stick spike.

I took off the tyre and all of my slime was dried up, as the photo shows. No nasty goo balls or anything, just a layer of dried brew. So I tipped some more brew in, pumped the tyre up and lay it with the hole side down for 20 minutes - all good hole repaired.

That was the first slow leak in 3 months and for me that makes it a huge improvement over Stans, I would have to refresh more often and sidewall pinholes like that were hard to seal. I am very happy with the effect of the Microballons, I reckon they are well worth adding to the mix.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I probably already posted in this thread, but all season I've been using a 1 part latex mold builder and 2 part supermarket ammonia (obviously not pure ammonia). Has worked great, I even had a crappy ride where my insides felt like they were being turned inside-out and I was in a lot of pain due to a stomach problem, barely able to keep moving towards my car, when I got a puncture that appeared to be standard nail-size (~3-4mm?). It started spraying of course, but sealed up just fine. That was fortunate, because I was really in no condition to change a flat. I would have literally had to sit down for around an hour to muster the strength/be able to do it, I figured.


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## SlickWilly8019 (Sep 4, 2012)

I tried a 50/50 mix (1 stans cup of each) of automotive slime and Stans. Doesn't seem to seal up permanent it constantly leaks and is oozing out. My rough estimate for punctures on my rear tire side walls is about 60 and I have a few on the tread portion, though the sealant oozes out the tire seem to ride okay. 

Think i'll get some modelers latex & microballons or glitter and try that, I can't afford to replace stans sealant every other month its just too expensive-rather spend the money on a new brake setup.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

This the correct modelers turf? Seems almost powdery...

Sent from my Thunderbolt via TapATalk 4


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

How about carbon nano tubes for chunkulator? Wondering which type would work best, anyone familiar with this technology?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Nanotubes are an inhalation danger and must be used with very good inhalation precautions. Also, might cause problems in you get them in your eyes.


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## galumay (Apr 22, 2010)

I really think the micro balloons are as good as anything.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

Tellin' you guys, corn meal. Cheap, easy to find, and makes great muffins. 

Haven't found any boogers yet, and when it skins, it just looks like there's a bit of sand in it.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

BigOmike, that's the modeler's turf I used, plus rubber crumb. I'm about 1 month in on this recipe, which was my first batch of the OSS. I'm planning to leave that tire well enough alone until it's worn out or not sealing any more. I'll report back when I cross that bridge.

Where do "micro balloons" come from and what's their intended purpose?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

doismellbacon said:


> BigOmike, that's the modeler's turf I used, plus rubber crumb. I'm about 1 month in on this recipe, which was my first batch of the OSS. I'm planning to leave that tire well enough alone until it's worn out or not sealing any more. I'll report back when I cross that bridge.
> 
> Where do "micro balloons" come from and what's their intended purpose?


Hollow glass microspheres, sometimes termed microballoons, or glass bubbles have diameters ranging from 10 to 300 micrometers. Hollow spheres are used as a lightweight filler in composite materials such as syntactic foam and lightweight concrete.

Look at composite material supply houses - or hey! there's always amazon


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## galumay (Apr 22, 2010)

doismellbacon said:


> Where do "micro balloons" come from and what's their intended purpose?


As above, also used mixed into bog for fairing cars, boats etc for painting. It bulks up the filler making it very light weight and easy to sand.

You can easily source it cheaply on Ebay if you want to try some.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I know glitter has not proved useful in the past but that was with WSS. Anyone try it with OSS? Wondering if it would work better with the different ingredients...

Saw somewhere else something called "mica" being touted as the "gold stuff" in Stan's. Found it on Amazon as a powder. $10. No ideas...


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

big0mike said:


> I know glitter has not proved useful in the past but that was with WSS. Anyone try it with OSS? Wondering if it would work better with the different ingredients...
> 
> Saw somewhere else something called "mica" being touted as the "gold stuff" in Stan's. Found it on Amazon as a powder. $10. No ideas...


Glitter gets between tire and rim bead causing seal problems. Dumbest thing I ever tried. 

SGS4 Active / jb 4.2.2 GDE rom / tapatalk


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slocaus said:


> Glitter gets between tire and rim bead causing seal problems. Dumbest thing I ever tried.


Interesting that it caused problems. It would seem that ANY chunkulator has the potential to cause this problem but glitter, one of the smallest of the chunks, is a definite problem? Hmmmm...

I wish the rubber crumb worked for me. Hopefully, someone with a rubber crumb recipe has better results.

eurotrash? How'd your batch using rubber crumb work? Boogers?


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## Shrek1 (Aug 1, 2013)

Saw somwhere else something called "mica" being touted as the "gold stuff" in Stan's. Found it on Amazon as a powder. $10. No ideas...[/QUOTE said:


> It's always looked like 'mica' to me. If we could figure out what size of particles to get, I'd sure put it in my next batch.


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

Have tub of 16oz latex mold builder ,24oz slime atv , distilled water, RV anti freeze, ammonia, what ratios and mixing procedure do I need to make a go of this . Want to mix in a gallon jug if possible. THXS! Great thread!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

slocaus said:


> Glitter gets between tire and rim bead causing seal problems. Dumbest thing I ever tried.





big0mike said:


> Interesting that it caused problems. It would seem that ANY chunkulator has the potential to cause this problem but glitter, one of the smallest of the chunks, is a definite problem? Hmmmm...
> 
> I wish the rubber crumb worked for me. Hopefully, someone with a rubber crumb recipe has better results.


The problem with glitter (and probably mica) is the shape. The flat flakes would be lovely if they laid on a puncture like a manhole cover, but as slocaus noted they tend to go edge-on - which doesn't fit into a puncture, but is great for getting into the bead seats! A side wall cut might be addressed with this shape, but it seems that the rest of the flake would be standing up and likely to get knocked over/out of the slash.

The shapes we know work for plugging holes are thin flexible cylinders - fibers - and rough edged spheres - rubber crumb as found in tubeless variety Slime. The problem with adding rubber crumb seems to be more of reactivity - perhaps rinsing or soaking them in clear ammonia first? I've got rubber crumb added (dry) to my latest batch, but with an equal amount of clear ammonia in the mix. MMMV (MyMileageMayVary).


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Fred Smedley said:


> Have tub of 16oz latex mold builder ,24oz slime atv , distilled water, RV anti freeze, ammonia, what ratios and mixing procedure do I need to make a go of this . Want to mix in a gallon jug if possible. THXS! Great thread!


There are variations but I use 16 oz each of latex, PG, slime, 32 oz water. If using RV AF I would use 16 oz each of latex and slime, 48 oz RV AF. Yields a little more than a half gallon. I also add a half cup of ammonia.


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

bsieb said:


> There are variations but I use 16 oz each of latex, PG, slime, 32 oz water. If using RV AF I would use 16 oz each of latex and slime, 48 oz RV AF. Yields a little more than a half gallon. I also add a half cup of ammonia.


Thanks , I'll give that a whirl.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

bsieb said:


> There are variations but I use 16 oz each of latex, PG, slime, 32 oz water. If using RV AF I would use 16 oz each of latex and slime, 48 oz RV AF. Yields a little more than a half gallon. I also add a half cup of ammonia.


Would you mind reminding me what's the ammonia for in the WSS mix ? I just bought the jar of latex, 24oz Slime, EG anti-freeze and will use tap water. Just for sealing the tire (non-tubeless tire), not very concerned about puncture. Thanks


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Ammonia keeps the latex from hardening, I guess, not sure about the science, but it makes for a nice smooth mix that may last longer.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^I usually get about a year (in the jar) and 3+ months in a tire with a similar mix and no ammonia. Ammonia isn't necessary, but I'll be trying it in my next mix in hopes of making it last longer in the tire.
Just my opinion, but I think it would be worth the dollar to use distilled water instead of tap water.


David C said:


> Would you mind reminding me what's the ammonia for in the WSS mix ? I just bought the jar of latex, 24oz Slime, EG anti-freeze and will use tap water. Just for sealing the tire (non-tubeless tire), not very concerned about puncture. Thanks


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

ElwoodT said:


> ^^I usually get about a year (in the jar) and 3+ months in a tire with a similar mix and no ammonia. Ammonia isn't necessary, but I'll be trying it in my next mix in hopes of making it last longer in the tire.
> Just my opinion, but I think it would be worth the dollar to use distilled water instead of tap water.


Maybe you could run extra ammonia in back and regular in front. I have found it a useful way to compare sealant mixes without a lot of note taking or data collecting.

My own practice is to pull the bead and look inside once a month and top off if necessary, which makes it hard to determine how long the sealant actually lasts. I find it easier to observe differences between front and back.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^good Idea with the front/back comparison. I add sealant when leaks are slow to plug and the sealant is dark green. 
I've been using the rv antifreeze and no extra h2o with good results and so I'm sticking with it, since it's the cheapest.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

David C said:


> Would you mind reminding me what's the ammonia for in the WSS mix ? I just bought the jar of latex, 24oz Slime, EG anti-freeze and will use tap water. Just for sealing the tire (non-tubeless tire), not very concerned about puncture. Thanks





bsieb said:


> ^Ammonia keeps the latex from hardening, I guess, not sure about the science, but it makes for a nice smooth mix that may last longer.


Yes, the ammonia keeps the latex from coagulating (polymerizing). The trick is the pH - ammonia is base (vs acid). Keep the pH high enough, and the latex stays liquid/monomer. However, other chemicals in the mix can cause polymerization, which is why you don't use high-dollar antifreeze - good anticorrosion agents can instantly coagulate latex, but cheap stuff doesn't have any (or very much).

When the mix exits thru a hole, the ammonia and the carrier fluid (water/glycol) evaporates and the latex coagulates and dries.

And now that I think of it - the glycol part of the mix is there both as antifreeze and because it is a low vapor pressure (doesn't evaporate readily) fluid that will keep the mix moving in the tire. Ammonia, used to keep latex from becoming a big booger, has a high vapor pressure - matter of fact, straight ammonia boils at -33C! Ammonia is dissolved in water, keeps it from boiling away - but at the very least it is evaporating with the water. I will have to look up vapor pressures of the mixture(s) just for my curiosity now.


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## Shrek1 (Aug 1, 2013)

Since almost all tap water has chloramine(Chlorine and Ammonia) in it. It's possible that this is the reason tapwater seems to have negative effects on the mix.......


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## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

Ugh. just wasted 16 oz/ of mold builder. I put the latex in a glass quart jar, added PG - and shazam! - one big booger. I must have my mix order wrong. More paging thru this thread needed.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Mixing order is thin to thick.


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## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

bsieb said:


> ^Mixing order is thin to thick.


Yep. Thanks. Worst part is that I remember reading that, now that you mention it.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^I go thck to thin. a google search seems to show people going both ways. thickest (latex) with thinest seems to be a no-no.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Hi, I've read most of this thread and I think I'm ready to try making my own home tubeless brew but still have a few doubts mainly because I cant trace some ingredients.

Was planing to try OSS since I thought I would have a hard time finding Slime ATV where I live (Portugal) but have already found one supplier.

And what about the Ethylene Glycol?In page 1 wadester mentioned the use of Ethylene Glycol but all the recent posts mention Propylene Glycol?The anti-freeze liquids I've inspected at supermarket are all Ethylene Glycol based, is there a reason to favor one over the other?

Comparing Ethylene Glycol and Propylene Glycol

My chemistry is a little rusted but If I read right Propylene has higher viscosity and higher COD (Chemical oxygen demand) meaning (i think) it will oxidize less and be more resistant to evaporation, could it be the reason?

For OSS mix I'm missing one component:xantham gum, its a hard to find item in Europe.
I wonder If you cant use a more readily available item, from what I've read the purpose of xantham gum is to bind the ingredients together, in cooking that can also be achieved with gelatin/powder jello, could it be an alternative?

Any help appreciated.

Ty

EDIT: Almost forgot, reading some previous posts someone mentioned some people mix all the liquid latex at once to avoid the liquid latex to dry up in jar if you dont mix it all at once. Use glass marbles, it's a trick used in photography to preserve developers by keeping the jars full without oxigen


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Keeping the jar full is not an issue. If you have ammonia in the mix and keep a tight lid even an almost empty jar will last a very long time The xantham gum is a thickener. You would probably be fine without it. It mainly gives a thicker mixture, but I don't think that there is that much advantage and I don't think it inhibits evaporation that much. I am considering mixing my next batch without it, just to experiment.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

PS, I want to come visit you some day in Portugal!


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## klavius (May 28, 2009)

I've finally read the whole thread, and it took me a lot of time and brain 

It seems that the only thing missing and keeping OSS brew from absolutely outperforming any other sealant is the "chunkulator" element.

Until now, what is the best chunkulator used?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^The best chunkulator at this point is tubeless Slime. I'm not convinced chunks really do much but cause goobers and bead seating problems.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Chunkulators I recall being used:

Tubeless Slime - yeah, it's easy/squeezy and has a range of stuff.

Glitter - bad. Messes up bead seat before you can tell if it does any good with a puncture.

Modeler's turf - I don't recall bad reports, but don't recall good ones either.

Dryer lint - I've used this, but the main effect I note is as a thickener. Cheap, readily available.

Pet hair - some say it's grrrrrrreat! If it's clean, it's a fiber. I note that Slime fibers are pretty fine. Undercoat hair would be similar.

Rubber crumb - recent report that commercial product caused boogering. Others have made it by grinding up old tires/tubes, but I don't recall any reports back on this.

Corn meal - this may be what's in Stan's, and some good reports have come in.

Ground pepper - some good reports I recall.

??? Any others? Please chime in with more materials and reports on their success and/or corrections to the above.

So far, we're doing fibers and plugs - with plates ruled out.

Oh, and the finest pitch is the latex itself - along with the system of chemicals added or avoided to keep it liquid and available. I recall some stuff I used back in the '70's - FlatPruf. It was brown, used paper pulp for chunkulation, and had some kind of sticky/gluey stuff rather than latex. Replaced by Safety Seal (bright pink), then Slime - which were very similar except for color. We're all fairly satisfied with latex, but there may be other [pun]solutions[/pun].

I just looked up the MSDS/SDS for Bar's Leaks Concentrated radiator stop leak - it's got 2,2',2''-(hexahydro-1,3,5-triazine-1,3,5-triyl)triethanol for a solvent/gluey stuff, but titanium dioxide (white powder - used in sunblock) and cellulose (probably fibers) for chunkulation. All supposed to be <10% each, so mostly water or other nontoxic nonactive ingredients. Looking at their other products I see almond shell, sodium carbonate, ginger (>50%?), ethylene glycol, copper powder and some other longnamepetrochemical stuffs. I note that "liquid aluminum stop leak" does not list aluminum - so it's considered nontoxic (but copper is?)


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## klavius (May 28, 2009)

What is inside slime?


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## klavius (May 28, 2009)

wadester said:


> Chunkulators I recall being used:
> 
> Tubeless Slime - yeah, it's easy/squeezy and has a range of stuff.


What about silica gel?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

klavius said:


> What is inside slime?


Fibers (probably polyester), rubber crumb, propylene glycol, water. All nontoxic, so the MSDS no longer lists the ingredients (used to).


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

klavius said:


> What about silica gel?


I messed with it a bit, but was unimpressed. Kinda like sand. Had to blenderize it to get the bead smaller and rougher. I don't think I ever put any into a tire.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

It was a pain to use it because you had to grind it down to smaller size. It seemed to work ok though.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

My experience was that the silica gel efficiently clogged squeeze bottle tips and valve stems, which made it awkward to use. Didn't cause boogering, but was too much hassle overall.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

That is why you had to grind it down.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

Zowie said:


> Tellin' you guys, corn meal. Cheap, easy to find, and makes great muffins.
> 
> Haven't found any boogers yet, and when it skins, it just looks like there's a bit of sand in it.


How much are you putting into your batches?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

yourdaguy said:


> That is why you had to grind it down.


I ground it down in a blender until it was pretty fine, that was a bit of a hassle, as was picking out the blue indicator beads.


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## klavius (May 28, 2009)

Are there differente sizes of corn meal? How much are you putting ?



dustyduke22 said:


> How much are you putting into your batches?


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

I use about a half teaspoon per tire--I don't actually put it in the mix though, it makes it a pain to put in through the valve. I put the cornmeal in when you seat it, and as long as it stays liquid I just add a little more if I don't hear it sloshing, and it seems to stay in solution.

As far as size goes, I did a batch where I put the cornmeal through a sieve, but it was still a pain to inject. It seems to seal a little quicker having a range of sizes from a flour consistency to maybe one or two mm flakes being the biggest pieces.

The cornmeal I got is labeled a 'medium' mill.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

Hi,
Regarding xantham gum: 
I found it in Germany on eBay pretty cheap. It's often spelled xanthan or xantan. It's also know as E415 (European food additive E-number). I did not find it at any supermarket, at least in Germany. 

Regarding PG vs. EG:
One main advantage of PG is that it's non-toxic. 
Reading past posts, there is concern about using automotive antifreeze because it may contain additives that could have a negative influence on your brew. I found pharmaceutical grade PG online for around 10 EUR a liter.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

wadester said:


> Chunkulators I recall being used:
> 
> Tubeless Slime - yeah, it's easy/squeezy and has a range of stuff.
> 
> ...


I just started brewing OSS a few weeks ago.
I appreciate all the contributions to this forum. Great stuff.

My recipe is based on Eurotrash's OSS variant.
For my first 2 batches I used Woodland Scenics fine and coarse turf. About 1 TBSP each for a 1 quart (1 liter) batch.
I came back from a long ride last week and found a nice sized nail lodged in my tire. The OSS had sealed around the nail perfectly, but when I pulled the nail out, a lot of sealant shot out and it took a sealant refill for the hole to seal up. 
Maybe it was just unlucky, but I have some concern that the turf is a little too soft and porous to seal larger punctures well. Under a microscope the turf looks like open cell foam. It is also very soft. I question how well turf particles can anchor into the rubber around the puncture. Or do they just get mashed through the hole?
As an alternative to turf, I am now trying plastic filings. I clamped a block of plastic in a vise and hit the edge with a coarse file. The plastic I'm using is polybutylene terephthalate with 30% glass fiber fill (PBT-GF30). It's a rigid engineering plastic. The glass fibers may give the particles more grip at a microscopic level. I can imagine many other plastics like Nylon (PA) would perform similarly, but this is what I had lying around.
My field testing will continue and as soon as I get my hands on a couple worn out tires, I'm going to conduct some comparative puncture testing.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> The problem with adding rubber crumb seems to be more of reactivity - perhaps rinsing or soaking them in clear ammonia first?


Interesting. Getting ready to make a batch and could easily divide it into two... Try soaked crumb in one, modeler's turf in the other? I really hate to give up on rubber crumb but I had the very final bit in my front tire added just a couple weeks ago and got a slit in the tire that wouldn't seal. Opened it up to tube it and found a booger again.



yourdaguy said:


> The xantham gum is a thickener. You would probably be fine without it. It mainly gives a thicker mixture,


It's an emulsifier which is used to keep things suspended together. Keep the chunkulators from sinking to the bottom quickly. The difference between several of my OSS versions was Xantham gum and in the batch without it the chunks would sink relatively quickly whereas the Xantham version would not sink even though they were the same thickness. I think it has the added benefit (or not) of making it thicker but the distinction of what it actually does is important.



bsieb said:


> My experience was that the silica gel efficiently clogged squeeze bottle tips and valve stems, which made it awkward to use. Didn't cause boogering, but was too much hassle overall.


That was my experience as well...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Well, we'll see how the modeler's turf performs. I mixed up a batch like normal then doubled up on the Great Dane hair. The put a portion in a smaller container, I think it's around 16oz, and mixed in 1 tbspn of coarse modeler's turf. After some fighting the tire is finally sealed.

Someone on another thread of mine gave me the idea of pinching OPEN the cut that wouldn't seal (turns out it may have been close to 1/8") and fill it with Super Glue so I did that as well. I used Gorilla Super Glue since it's supposedly got a little bit of a rubber compound in it so that it's not so brittle as regular Super Glue. It didn't leak but we'll see if it holds after a pounding on the single track.



Current Recipe v1e said:


> 16 oz PG
> 26 oz RO water
> 16 oz liquid latex
> 2 oz ammonia
> ...


I skipped the coloring this time just to weed out all possible culprits of the boogering. I originally added the red so it'd look like the tire was bleeding when it sealed a hole. The coloring was designed to be used with the glue I used in version 1a, which failed. It actually might've worked with some xantham gum as the emulsifier but as it was mixed all the chunks sank to the bottom rather quickly. Hmmmm... might have to try that mix again...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Did a bit of research tonight and found a thread with a link to the Stan's patent info. Interesting reading...gives all the proportions, ingredients, etc....I suppose after reading it that this is where the WSS came from...liquid latex, slime, PG, water. I run this mix (no water...all 50/50 RV anti-freeze) and it seems to work well enough. I get excessive weeping from my 60 tpi Control casing Specy tire..but my 120 tpi S-Works casing Specy tire is fine. I am thinking of ditching the Slime and going with mold builder, PG, and for the "aggregate", I got some mica I had at work..this should give a variety of particle sizes for hole-plugging. I found PG at Tractor Supply..I am wondering if the other things in the RV anti-freeze are what causes the weeping. Anyhoo...thoughts on this mix? At the end of the day, I think Stan's works GREAT and my main reason for homebrew is saving money so why not try to replicate what works and works well?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> ...liquid latex, slime, PG, water. I run this mix (no water...all 50/50 RV anti-freeze) and it seems to work well enough. I get excessive weeping from my 60 tpi Control casing Specy tire..but my 120 tpi S-Works casing Specy tire is fine. I am thinking of ditching the Slime and going with mold builder, PG, and for the "aggregate", I got some mica I had at work..this should give a variety of particle sizes for hole-plugging. I found PG at Tractor Supply. I am wondering if the other things in the RV anti-freeze are what causes the weeping. Anyhoo...thoughts on this mix?


I don't know all the technicalities but the PG has what we wanted out of the RV Antifreeze without all the other sh|t that we didn't. Some of the techies can certainly clarify that but moving from RV AF to PG is a good move. I know when we tried the OSS blend most people that weeped like crazy with WSS had little to no weeping with OSS. PG is at least a part of that success.

Interested in the mica. I don't know anything about it. It is flaky with different sizes? Some guys seemed to thinking that the mica may act like glitter which seems to make some people's tires difficult to seal at the rim. But, if it is in fact a component of Stan's then I guess it can't be bad. You'd've heard about it if people were having issues sealing beads with Stan's.

But, then again, I did hear about people complaining that at some point Stan's got "less chunky".


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> Did a bit of research tonight and found a thread with a link to the Stan's patent info. Interesting reading...gives all the proportions, ingredients, etc....


What chunkulation was originally used? I know some think corn meal - and big'O'mike thinks mica? And how close are the current proportions to the original, at least for latex vs liquids vs chunkulation?

As a note, I based WSS on several DIY recipes I found on the 'net back in 2004 - discussed the various ingredients with some chemists at work to get the why's and wherefores. Notubes website says Stan started in 2001, so it is possible that the innovators I stole, uh, borrowed from had also stolen Stan's basic ideas.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> What chunkulation was originally used? I know some think corn meal - and big'O'mike thinks mica? And how close are the current proportions to the original, at least for latex vs liquids vs chunkulation?


That's what I read somewhere but it was in some other forum similar to this so it could be good information or not...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Thanks for the info homebrew sealant gurus! I think the mica is too gritty..I am going to look at cornmeal. Mica is just a platy flat mineral so yes...various sizes. I can see where the cornmeal would work as it woukd be softer and in a situation where a particle was trapped in the bead area it woukd deform better to fit the space. Will try this weekend and report back.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> I think the mica is too gritty..I am going to look at cornmeal. Mica is just a platy flat mineral so yes...various sizes. I can see where the cornmeal would work as it woukd be softer and in a situation where a particle was trapped in the bead area it woukd deform better to fit the space.


Maybe that's why the modeler's turf seems to be popular. It kinda has a powdery feel to it like cornmeal might.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Maybe the chunks need to be a lot smaller to avoid gooberization. Whatever is in tubeless slime is very small. Maybe the silca gel needs to be ground finer to avoid settling and clogging issues. Just brainstorming...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

And to me cornmeal and even this modeler's turf I just used seem to be something that would naturally clump. The turf stirred up rather well so that's likely not the case but it doesn't seem "chunky" like the rubber crumb.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

I just filtered the chunks out of some Stan's (purchased summer 2013) and compared them to cornmeal under a microscope. The chunks in the Stan's were smaller than the coarse cornmeal, but the surface of the chunks has a very very similar texture. There was a difference in color, Stan's chunks being white and the cornmeal being yellow, but this could just be due to white vs. yellow corn. 
Most of the Stan's chunks are around 0.3 - 0.6mm. In comparison, my coarse cornmeal had chunks over 1mm. Finding finer cornmeal or grinding it down to size is not a big deal. 
In comparison, turf is a totally different material. The chunks of fine turf are similar in size compared to Stan's, but the material looks like open-cell foam. I'm guessing it starts out as a very fine foam/sponge material that's run through a shredder. 
Turf is nice to use since it doesn't require any additional processing and it stays in suspension very well. What concerns me is its porosity and softness. I can imagine solid chunks doing a better job of clogging a puncture.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

bsieb said:


> Maybe the chunks need to be a lot smaller to avoid gooberization. Whatever is in tubeless slime is very small. Maybe the silca gel needs to be ground finer to avoid settling and clogging issues. Just brainstorming...


I recently dissected a "Stanimal" booger from when I was using Stan's. Under a microscope I was expecting to see a lot of cornmeal chunks, but it looked more like pure latex rubber. At least in this case it didn't seem like the chunks were causing the boogering problem directly.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Steve-S, the turf sounds like ground up green florist foam.

Rainbow Foam Powder


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

*Fine Turf*













^ 
But I think of florist foam as being very crushable. The turf seems pretty resilient. Here are some pictures of the fine turf. I put a 1mm drill bit into view for reference.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

*Stan's chunks..*














Stan's chunks.. presumably fine white cornmeal. 1mm drill bit in view for reference.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

*Coarse Yellow Cornmeal*














This is coarse yellow cornmeal. 1mm drill bit in view for reference.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Steve-S said:


> In comparison, turf is a totally different material. The chunks of fine turf are similar in size compared to Stan's, but the material looks like open-cell foam. I'm guessing it starts out as a very fine foam/sponge material that's run through a shredder.
> 
> Turf is nice to use since it doesn't require any additional processing and it stays in suspension very well. What concerns me is its porosity and softness. I can imagine solid chunks doing a better job of clogging a puncture.


I can see how you drew that comparison just from looking at it. It totally looks and feels like foam. I'd swear I'd seen some pictures of the turf that look more like extruded rubber but I didn't go back to look for those images, though.

My first thought is the porosity will HELP in the sealing since the latex can get all inside and through the material instead of just around it.

And the softness... I'm not sure if it's good or bad. I think it possibly doesn't matter since you're only trying to get something stuck in that hole for a fraction of a second while the latex seals.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I'm not gonna qoute the pics - but THANK YOU Steve-S!!!!!!

When folks were talking about modeler's grass, I used to think "yeah, whatever" - but looking at the shape, it's like a multi-armed grabber/sponge to hold latex and smaller bits. Gonna have to try that now.

The stanchunks don't really look like the cornmeal, tho. They are more foamy looking, perhaps expanded? Fine chopped popped popcorn? JK. I recall a mineral crystal that is heat expanded - ah, there it is - vermiculite! A hydrous, silicate mineral that expands greatly when heated.

Maybe not:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Yea, the Stans looks more like popcorn. Popped corn could still be described as corn meal in the MSD sheets I think. Maybe that is the secret to why Stans seems to seal so fast? I have had great success with the current mixture sealing, but it usually sprays a few revolutions first. Stan's seemed to seal almost instantly, but dried out in 3 months.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Its certainly not mica as many have said; I'm a geologist....trust me on that one. I brought some mica home from work and added it to an older batch of WSS...I tossed it. WAY too gritty and it will cause issues with the bead. I am going to pick up some cornmeal today.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Also, IIRC mica is pretty hard on the hardness scale and would tend to act like sandpaper when trapped between tire and rim as well as acting like sand blasting when flung around loose in the sealant abrading away anodizing that is not covered with tape and actually sanding down the tape over time.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Well, I was gonna ask if anyone had thought about something as simple as sand but if mica can act like sandpaper than sand certainly would... 

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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^what about saw dust? I've got it coming out of my ears, and its pretty easy to get different sizes.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I just mixed up a batch following the Stan's patent proportions. Used 1 part mold builder, 2.3 parts distilled water, 2 parts pure PG, and some gritty cornmeal. Will see how it works. My new tires set up fine with this mix. Its v. similar to Stan's in consistency; v. watery.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

ElwoodT said:


> ^^what about saw dust? I've got it coming out of my ears, and its pretty easy to get different sizes.


I was thinking the same thing as I routed some plywood for a poker table...



TiGeo said:


> I just mixed up a batch following the Stan's patent proportions. Used 1 part mold builder, 2.3 parts distilled water, 2 parts pure PG, and some gritty cornmeal. Will see how it works. My new tires set up fine with this mix. Its v. similar to Stan's in consistency; v. watery.


I may have to try this just so I know what Stan's consistency is like. Never used it...

Do you have a link to this patent info?

As to cornmeal... Can you buy different types & textures? Or is the difference simply white or yellow cornmeal? Never had a reason to need it.

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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

I would appreciate some advice gents...

I made a batch off OSS following (more or less) Eurotrash666's recipe. I followed his mixing order, with final proportions being:

1/4 tsp Xantham Gum
1.5 oz clear Ammonia
1 cup distilled water
1 cup (+1 oz) food grade PG
1 cup mold builder
1 TBSP fine modelers turf
1 TBSP course modelers turf
and an unmeasured smidgen of rubber crumb

It looked real good (like Ranch Dressing), a little thicker than Stan's. It sealed fine and I'm sure it's plugged some leaks because thorns are out of control on my usual routes and I've had zero flats. I put 4 oz in a 2.3 650b tire that already had a latex skin in it from a previous sealant, and now 5 weeks later there's no liquid left....only a VERY thick slimy skin covering the inside of the tire, but no flowing liquid.

What do you guys recommend to keep it liquid for a longer period, and to keep the latex skin from getting so thick.... I'm talking a full 2 - 3 mm thick wet goopy lining. I'm in a very hot climate, and I've added a small amount of water in addition to thin it down further....but maybe my water is just evaporating very quickly... I'm sure it is more quickly than for most of you....most of the time my bike spends its days in my work warehouse that is un-air conditioned and routinely gets well over 100 deg F in the Summer/early Fall. Should I up my PG? or Ammonia? or both?

Also, I can concur on the rubber crumb boogerization... a good portion of the crumb that I put in was clumped in a shooter-marble sized booger, and all the rest was trapped in the thick goo lining.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

Here's a pic. That may look liquid, but it's not.... same thick layer all the way around the tire.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

yourdaguy said:


> Yea, the Stans looks more like popcorn. Popped corn could still be described as corn meal in the MSD sheets I think. Maybe that is the secret to why Stans seems to seal so fast? I have had great success with the current mixture sealing, but it usually sprays a few revolutions first. Stan's seemed to seal almost instantly, but dried out in 3 months.


It could be that the Stan's chunks are processed in some special way. But also keep in mind that the Stan's chunks were stored in an ammoniated solution of PG and water for a long time, whereas the yellow cornmeal was dry out of the bag. In general, I'm sort of surprised that the cornmeal doesn't dissolve in the brew to begin with. Maybe the surface looks so puffed up because it was soaking in brew for months?

I'm going to soak some cornmeal in a base solution of OSS and see if there is any change.
Regarding white vs. yellow cornmeal, I read that there is a type of Italian cornmeal called polenta bianco. Next week I'm going to try to find it at a local Italian restaurant supply.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

^^
Before thinking about adding distilled water alone, I'd think about adding the water with ammonia as well. The ammonia is there to stabilize the latex and keep it from polymerizing.
You mention that the tire had a previous sealant before you filled with OSS. Was it Stan's or something else? Some sealants have a much different composition (e.g. synthetic vs. natural latex) and might cause the latex in the OSS to coagulate.
To compensate for the hot conditions, you might consider reducing the porosity of the tire. In a previous post Eurotrash666 describes a method of using thinned ShoeGoo rubber cement to seal the inside of the tire. I haven't tried this yet, but it sounds like a good idea.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

big0mike said:


> I can see how you drew that comparison just from looking at it. It totally looks and feels like foam. I'd swear I'd seen some pictures of the turf that look more like extruded rubber but I didn't go back to look for those images, though.
> 
> My first thought is the porosity will HELP in the sealing since the latex can get all inside and through the material instead of just around it.
> 
> And the softness... I'm not sure if it's good or bad. I think it possibly doesn't matter since you're only trying to get something stuck in that hole for a fraction of a second while the latex seals.


For reference, the fine turf I have:
Woodland Scenics, Fine Turf, Yellow Grass, T43

The porosity and softness could be good or bad.
I have the most concern that the turf chunks are so flexible and compressible that they can be deformed and pushed through the puncture without jamming. 
As soon as I find the time, I'm going to do a comparative puncture test.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

delismellbaco: too much xantham gum. It seems to thicken more over time. I am considering eliminating it from my next mix altogether.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

doismellbacon said:


> Here's a pic. That may look liquid, but it's not.... same thick layer all the way around the tire.


ranch dressing, I would think, is too thick, especially for hot climates. I haven't mixed up oss, but I like my wss a lot thinner than creamy dressing.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

big0mike said:


> I was thinking the same thing as I routed some plywood for a poker table...
> 
> I may have to try this just so I know what Stan's consistency is like. Never used it...
> 
> ...


Wow...never used Stan's? Its the benchmark so to me, you should at least buy a small bottle and try it to see. Here is the link:

Tubeless tire compound and a system and method for retrofitting non-tubeless tires - US Patent 7055569 Description

Edit: here is the original mtbr link...don't want to plagiarize..give credit where credit is due!

http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/stans-sealant-crystals-714978.html

I used the exact proportions listed here and it seemed to give a mix just like a bottle of Stan's.

I understand that you can buy different sizes of corn meal; I just bought some in a can..very gritty..seemed consistent with what the bits in Stan's feel like. I used white. So far, no weeping...time will tell. Will ride tomorrow.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Since I've never used cornmeal for anything but cornbread or breading - I looked it up:

"Cornmeal is a meal (coarse flour) ground from dried maize (corn). It is a common staple food, and is ground to fine, medium, and coarse consistencies, but not as fine as wheat flour.[1] In the United States, very finely ground cornmeal is also referred to as cornflour.[1] However, the word cornflour denotes cornstarch in the United Kingdom, where cornmeal is known as polenta."

From wikipedia.

Masa Harina is another name for finely ground cornmeal.

I will be very interested to see what regular cornmeal soaked in PG/water/ammonia looks like.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I would like to do as someone else just did and get some Stan's to filter out some of the particles. I could screen them at work to see what gradation we are looking at then play with some various cornmeal grinds to figure out how best to blend a Stan's-like grain size distribution. I also think I could potentially fuse a bead of the Stan's bits and run it in our XRF to see what the peaks look like...that way we could tell for sure what exactly they are.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok...24 hours of the cornmeal soaking in the sauce...it sure feels like Stan's....they don't disintegrate.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

*Analysis of Stan's Chunks*



TiGeo said:


> I would like to do as someone else just did and get some Stan's to filter out some of the particles. I could screen them at work to see what gradation we are looking at then play with some various cornmeal grinds to figure out how best to blend a Stan's-like grain size distribution. I also think I could potentially fuse a bead of the Stan's bits and run it in our XRF to see what the peaks look like...that way we could tell for sure what exactly they are.


Those results would be interesting.

The method I used to extract the chunks from Stan's:
I first poured some Stan's in a glass jar. I then added cold tap water and allowed it to settle a bit. I decanted liquid off the top and then added more water. I repeated this several times until it ran clear. The chunks remain at the bottom of the jar.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

After 24 hours and zero weeping. This is the stuff. Time will tell as to how long it will last. I plan on doing some testing with an old tire to see how the puncture resistance is.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Just bought 10% Ammonia at Lowes. Easy to find if you need it. Stuff if STRONG smelling. 

Making my own version of the corn meal sauce...... Will report back.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Corn meal sauce?

So now we're working on latex-a-mole? 

Cool.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Steve-S said:


> Those results would be interesting.
> 
> The method I used to extract the chunks from Stan's:
> I first poured some Stan's in a glass jar. I then added cold tap water and allowed it to settle a bit. I decanted liquid off the top and then added more water. I repeated this several times until it ran clear. The chunks remain at the bottom of the jar.


I was just going to wet screen it with a 75 or 53 micron screen.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

Steve-S said:


> ^^
> Before thinking about adding distilled water alone, I'd think about adding the water with ammonia as well. The ammonia is there to stabilize the latex and keep it from polymerizing.
> You mention that the tire had a previous sealant before you filled with OSS. Was it Stan's or something else? Some sealants have a much different composition (e.g. synthetic vs. natural latex) and might cause the latex in the OSS to coagulate.
> To compensate for the hot conditions, you might consider reducing the porosity of the tire. In a previous post Eurotrash666 describes a method of using thinned ShoeGoo rubber cement to seal the inside of the tire. I haven't tried this yet, but it sounds like a good idea.


Interesting idea on the rubber cement... I think that might really help, at least during the summer around here. The previoius sealant was basically the original WSS, but using "Gempler's" industrial grade sealant in place of Slime.....
GEMPLER'S ® Ultraseal ™ Tire Sealant -- 1-gal. Bulletproof Grade - GEMPLER'S
I've been using this for years, and it's been good, but does booger up... and it seems like recent batches have been worse in that regard, making me wonder if the Gempler's recipe changed.
So, one vote for additional ammonia.



yourdaguy said:


> delismellbaco: too much xantham gum. It seems to thicken more over time. I am considering eliminating it from my next mix altogether.


Sounds good. I'll be making another batch in the next couple days....will leave the xantham gum out... I think I'll leave the rubber crumb out too, maybe try cornmeal. The rubber crumb seems pretty uniformly large.



ElwoodT said:


> ranch dressing, I would think, is too thick, especially for hot climates. I haven't mixed up oss, but I like my wss a lot thinner than creamy dressing.


I should probably qualify that the ranch dressing I'm talking about would be the more watery hippie natural variety that my wife buys, not the thick creamy Hidden Valley-chocked full o' thickeners variety with all the tasty MSG in it.... haha

Thanks guys! I'll report back.


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## random walk (Jan 12, 2010)

I am pleased to report that a 3 mL injection of WSS brought back to life a volleyball that had a close encounter with a Mexican fan palm tree a few weeks ago! 

I wish I had read this post before trying to force the WSS through an inflation needle... lots of time spent unclogging the needle of fibrous chunks.



TiGeo said:


> I was just going to wet screen it with a 75 or 53 micron screen.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

thuren said:


> Just bought 10% Ammonia at Lowes. Easy to find if you need it. Stuff if STRONG smelling.
> 
> Making my own version of the corn meal sauce...... Will report back.


The Mold Builder already has ammonia in it so I don't add it.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

TiGeo said:


> The Mold Builder already has ammonia in it so I don't add it.


Gotcha. I never did in the past either, but I want to try it this batch, as if it works as described, I'm thinking it will keep the latex from hardening inside the tire.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

BTW the corn meal mixed in with the brew feels VERY "Stan's like" I highly recommend trying it!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

thuren said:


> BTW the corn meal mixed in with the brew feels VERY "Stan's like" I highly recommend trying it!


My thoughts exactly. The batch I mixed this past weekend looks/feels JUST like Stan's - kind of gritty/greasy. I am not getting weeping which was my major beef with the WSS. I plan on mounting up an old tire on a beater rim and putting some holes in it to make sure it works...but I can't see why it wouldn't. I used to call my WSS mix "BAMFS"...not its "BAMFS 2.0". I use an old Slime bottle for my sealant..you can then turn it up side down and let the bits settle to the bottom before pouring it in the red Stan's cup...just like Stan's.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

*P.A.N Harina Blanca - Pre-cooked White Corn Meal*

I just found this pre-cooked white cornmeal at a local ethnic grocery store.
1mm drill bit for reference.















This stuff looks really good and is going into my next test batch of OSS.


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## piccirilli (Feb 5, 2007)

Zowie said:


> Tellin' you guys, corn meal. Cheap, easy to find, and makes great muffins.
> 
> Haven't found any boogers yet, and when it skins, it just looks like there's a bit of sand in it.


How much corn meal do you add to a full batch?


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

That stuff SteveS has looks proper--really consistent. Thanks for the scope pics!

Personally, I throw a pinch in the tire before I seal it up, and just put the liquid in--topping off if it's low enough not to slosh. If you were doing a quart batch, and made sure it was pretty fine, (milled well and/or screened) I'd think somewhere between a tablespoon and two would be about right, for a pretty uneducated guess.

I don't know that the chunk, or even the liquid has too much to do with the weeping, last couple tires are weeping a little, but only once they're well 'broken in'.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I just did several pinches to a half a mason jar volume.

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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Here is where I'm at. Consistency looks spot on compared to Stans. Tires seated up quicker than with Stans, if anything, which I did not expect.

16oz Mold-builder latex
16oz 50/50 Ethylene glycol/DI water normal radiator antifreeze 
24oz distilled water
2oz 10% Ace hardware Ammonia 
One full 2oz stans scooper of fine corn meal

I laid out some of this mix, along with some stans, and some continental tubeless sealant on a table overnight, to see how they set up and if they dried or "skinned" at the same rate. The Stans and my mix were VERY similar, and the Continental sealant basically dried up solid overnight.

Will report back after use.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Sweet mother of God...I just weighed a scoop of BAMFS 2.0...WAY HEAVY. My WSS was ~27g/oz..Stan's was ~29g/oz..BAMFS 2.0 is nearly 50 g/oz!!!!! I wonder why it is so heavy? Too much corn meal?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok...why don't the new posts in this thread post at the bottom of the last page?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> Sweet mother of God...I just weighed a scoop of BAMFS 2.0...WAY HEAVY. My WSS was ~27g/oz..Stan's was ~29g/oz..BAMFS 2.0 is nearly 50 g/oz!!!!! I wonder why it is so heavy? Too much corn meal?


I think "too much" is a good question. Me, I'll take the weight for sealing power. Some won't.

But, then you have to figure out how much is needed to actually be useful? In order for it to plug it has to be near the puncture and if there's not enough aggregate in there to always have a chunk by a hole then the aggregate is useless.

I would vote for "too much" over "just enough" or "not enough" every time. I don't want to get stuck in the middle of nowhere and absolutely HATE having to put a tube in a tire with a survivable puncture.

YMMV.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> Sweet mother of God...I just weighed a scoop of BAMFS 2.0...WAY HEAVY. My WSS was ~27g/oz..Stan's was ~29g/oz..BAMFS 2.0 is nearly 50 g/oz!!!!! I wonder why it is so heavy? Too much corn meal?


I would have thought that the liquids were the heavy part - but dry corn meal would soak up liquid (something I was concerned about as I planned to try this). If you only varied the recipe by adding corn meal - that's the one. This was the precooked expanded stuff?

Also, if you're gonna go all acronymy on us you gotsta be 'splainin. WSS is Wade's Secret Sauce, OSS is Open Source Sealant - whachu got?

And if your post is in a weird place, it's either your configuration or a temp server glitch. Looks in the right place to me.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok...I think I over reacted. I somehow thought a scoop of Stan's weighed 28g...it is closer to 50g which I think is normal. Btw....BAMFS = Bad @ss Mother F#%&ing Sealant.

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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Geeeez....1 scoop = 2 oz not 1 oz....brain fart.

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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

TiGeo said:


> Sweet mother of God...I just weighed a scoop of BAMFS 2.0...WAY HEAVY. My WSS was ~27g/oz..Stan's was ~29g/oz..BAMFS 2.0 is nearly 50 g/oz!!!!! I wonder why it is so heavy? Too much corn meal?


Isn't bamfs your version of oss. I feel like it would save confusion if you used the agreed upon terms in this thread.
Thanks, btw, for you contribution to this thread. props.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

How about BAMFOSS?

Bam-Foss....rolls right off the tongue.

But DO NOT put this stuff in your mouth, kids!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Wow...didn't know about the agreed upon terms..so appologies. Yes..its my version of WSS.

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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

TiGeo said:


> Wow...didn't know about the agreed upon terms..so appologies. Yes..its my version of WSS.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


no apologies necessary. This thread benefits when everybody's on the "same page", as there is so much info.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

ElwoodT said:


> Isn't bamfs your version of oss. I feel like it would save confusion if you used the agreed upon terms in this thread.
> Thanks, btw, for you contribution to this thread. props.





TiGeo said:


> Wow...didn't know about the agreed upon terms..so appologies. Yes..its my version of WSS.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Hmm. We've kinda settled on the liquid parts - WSS uses antifreeze and OSS uses propylene glycol.

And WSS is more "off the shelf" and OSS is more "specific chemical".

Looking back, you need to post your recipe specifically - I don't see it, just bits&pieces. C'mon, we're science-ing here! If it ain't repeatable it ain't real! If you want to name your recipe, that's fine - but you must back your claim! I jokingly named my original recipe "secret sauce" - and promptly told everybody what it was so they could join the fun and improve the breed! I like OSS because it IS Open Source!

And thank you for your contributions (once you share them in detail :thumbsup

Maybe we should have a naming convention - have abbreviations for chunkulators? So if I make WSS with added rubber crumbs and ammonia, it's WSS/RC/NH3. Once I switch to PG, I'm in the OSS world - so with slime and corn meal and modeler's turf and ammonia it's: OSS/SL/CM/MT/NH3. It don't fall trippingly off the toungue, but it's science-y. Acronym-ized is OSCMN - "Osk-Men" WooHoo?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok. My original recipe was a WSS (that I call BAMFS). Mold Builder, ATV Slime, and Prestone RV antifreeze (pre-mixed with water so no need to add anymore). 1:1:3, respectively. Got lots of weeping from my 60 tpi tire. Sealed holes in tread. Sidewall cuts sealed but needed some time. Seemed to last about as long as Stan's. I am on east coast so weather is variable and humid.

New OSS (that I call BAMFS 2.0). Mold Builder, distilled water, PG, corn meal. 1:2.3:2: pinch, respectively.

This new blend is based on the original Stan's patent info I got from an older thread (above). This new blend feels and looks like Stan's. I have no weeping from the 60 tpi tire..albeit that I installed a new one at the same time. I am planning on doing some puncture/cut tests this weekend.

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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Sorry...multiple post.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

I would of thought the distinction to be: 
wss=slime 
oss=no slime


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

*OSS Chunk Comparison - Puncture Testing Results*

Today I ran a puncture test to compare chunk performance in OSS.
I included my OSS recipe below.
Sealants tested:
1. Stan's (benchmark)
2. OSS SI-v1 (recipe below, but 2 tbsp. Fine Turf for chunks)
3. OSS SI-v2 (recipe below, but 2 tbsp. plastic filings for chunks)
4. OSS SI-v3 (recipe below: 2 tbsp. fine white pre-cooked cornmeal for chunks)

The same tire was used for all tests: an older half-worn Conti Vertical Protection I had lying around.
60 ml (2 fl.oz.) of sealant were used for each test.
The tire was inflated to 2 bar (30 psi). 
I cleaned out the tire after each test.
For each puncture test I used a different section of the tire.
I had an array of 5 nails on the board.
I ran the tire onto the nails at least 3 times for each sealant.





















Results:

1. Stan's
Excellent sealing performance. :thumbsup: Occasional thin jet of sealant lasting a fraction of a second. No hissing, bubbling or dripping observed.

2. OSS SI-v1 (recipe below, but 2 tbsp. Fine Turf for chunks)
:bluefrown: Hissing, bubbling and dripping observed. No immediate seal. It took many seconds for the holes to close up.

3. OSS SI-v2 (recipe below, but 2 tbsp. plastic filings for chunks)
Same as 2., :bluefrown: Hissing, bubbling and dripping observed. No immediate seal. It took many seconds for the holes to close up.

4. OSS SI-v3 (recipe below: 2 tbsp. fine white pre-cooked cornmeal for chunks)
Same as 1., Excellent sealing performance. :thumbsup:Occasional thin jet of sealant lasting a fraction of a second. No hissing, bubbling or dripping observed.

Based on these results, the cornmeal is clearly outperforming the turf and my experimental plastic chunks. I'm switching to the cornmeal going forward.
If I have the chance, I'll post a video showing the results.

My latest OSS recipe (SI units)
OSS SI-v3
Recipe for 1 liter
400 ml (13.5 fl.oz.) distilled water 
300 ml (10.1 fl.oz.) propylene glycol (PG), pharmaceutical grade
1.2 ml (1/4 tsp.) xanthan gum
50 ml (1.7 fl.oz.) 5% ammonia solution*
250 ml (8.5 fl.oz.) liquid latex
30 ml (2 tbsp.) pre-cooked white maize meal (cornmeal), P.A.N. brand

* 50 ml assumes household ammonia with 5% concentration.
If you are using a different concentration, scale accordingly.

Start with 100 ml (3.4 fl.oz.) PG
Add and stir in this order:
1.2 ml (1/4 tsp.) xanthan gum
50 ml (1.7 fl.oz.) 5% ammonia 
200ml (6.8 fl.oz.) 50/50 PG/water
250ml (8.5 fl.oz.) liquid latex
200ml (6.8 fl.oz.) 50/50 PG/water
30 ml (2 tbsp.) pre-cooked white maize (corn) meal (P.A.N. brand)

top off with approx. 200 ml (6.8 fl.oz.) DI water to 1000 ml


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Steve-S said:


> Today I ran a puncture test to compare chunk performance in OSS.
> 
> Results:
> 
> ...


Excellent test! And a clear win for cooked cornmeal as a chunkulant! I'm tempted to do the same test for Slime/Tubeless Slime/Rubber Crumb - with CCM as the baseline standard.

My only concern with your results is quick vs longterm. But I think we're gonna go for quick because longterm takes so loooooong to test.

Thanks!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Is that Kroger corn meal cooked or will I have to throw it in the oven myself? Never had a reason to buy any. Who'd've thought I would need it for biking 

Nice test. Odd that we got such different results. In my video I posted some time ago I was using OSS with rubber crumb and had no bubbling or hissing and very little air loss. Just a slight stream of sealant spewing from the hole(s) for a quarter second and it was done.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

big0mike said:


> Is that Kroger corn meal cooked or will I have to throw it in the oven myself? Never had a reason to buy any. Who'd've thought I would need it for biking
> 
> Nice test. Odd that we got such different results. In my video I posted some time ago I was using OSS with rubber crumb and had no bubbling or hissing and very little air loss. Just a slight stream of sealant spewing from the hole(s) for a quarter second and it was done.


Not cooked that I can tell. Still no weeping from mine that I set up last Saturday.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

*Discrepancy in sealing results*



big0mike said:


> Nice test. Odd that we got such different results. In my video I posted some time ago I was using OSS with rubber crumb and had no bubbling or hissing and very little air loss. Just a slight stream of sealant spewing from the hole(s) for a quarter second and it was done.


In spite of its reported tendency to booger-up, maybe the rubber crumb seals better than turf. Couldn't this explain the difference in observed sealing performance?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

This is the 3rd giant breakthrough in this thread. The original WSS was a great start, easy to mix and way less expensive than Stans; sealed good enough, but had a weeping problem. Then Eurotrash666 gave us better living through chemistry with a better mix that sealed better and didn't weep. I have been running that without chunkulators and while it takes a little time to seal the thorn punctures that I get, I haven't had any booger issues. Now the 3rd breakthrough is a chunkulator that works great and hopefully doesn't cause much boogering. I will be mixing up a batch within a week or so since I am down to the amount to fill one tire.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Steve-S said:


> In spite of its reported tendency to booger-up, maybe the rubber crumb seals better than turf. Couldn't this explain the difference in observed sealing performance?


I agree. Thing is, if the corn meal does not booger up, we get a mix that LASTS. Once your chunks turn into a big booger, you technically now have no more effective chunks.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

One word: Grits.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

FWIW, I used mold builder and Dow RV AF with (uncooked) cornmeal--and that's it. No water, ammonia, or pure PG added. Didn't freeze (quickly) at -10 last winter, haven't gotten any boogering, haven't had any problems period. I still have weeping, but only where the tire has been physically beaten up--having had weeping from Stans, I don't think this is an actual sealant issue, but more of a tire issue...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Zowie said:


> FWIW, I used mold builder and Dow RV AF with (uncooked) cornmeal--and that's it. No water, ammonia, or pure PG added. Didn't freeze (quickly) at -10 last winter, haven't gotten any boogering, haven't had any problems period. I still have weeping, but only where the tire has been physically beaten up--having had weeping from Stans, I don't think this is an actual sealant issue, but more of a tire issue...


I disagree on teh weeping; I have set up buddys' tires that weep when they are brand new with the WSS I was using. I think its related to the Slime or the anti-corrosion additives in the anti-freeze. Your mix with the RV AF doesn't need water b/c the antifreeze is already mixed with it.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

The only reason I mentioned it was that I set up a WTB TCS tire with stans and it weeped right off the bat heavily, and throughout it's (rather short-a$$) life. That's why I say it's the tires, because most others that haven't wept right away, once I beat on them, scrape them up, or case them a little, they start weeping too. 

Makes me think that it's the integrity of the tire and casing's air holding ability that keeps a tire from weeping. Sure could be wrong though.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Steve-S said:


> In spite of its reported tendency to booger-up, maybe the rubber crumb seals better than turf. Couldn't this explain the difference in observed sealing performance?


That's a distinct possibility. Maybe I need to pull out my nail board and revisit my test? Damn, just realized I pulled the rim strips outta my "test bike" since I never ride it and was gonna sell it. It'll take some work to set 'em back up tubeless. Unless I wanna test on my real tires.


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## albertdc (Mar 2, 2007)

Zowie said:


> FWIW, I used mold builder and Dow RV AF with (uncooked) cornmeal--and that's it. No water, ammonia, or pure PG added. Didn't freeze (quickly) at -10 last winter, haven't gotten any boogering, haven't had any problems period. I still have weeping, but only where the tire has been physically beaten up--having had weeping from Stans, I don't think this is an actual sealant issue, but more of a tire issue...


What are your ratios? Anything special when you mix it up?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I bought some pre cooked white corn today at the "world grocery". All the brands have small amounts of iron, thiamine, and niacin added. If anyone finds a brank without the added chemicals, please let us know. I am pretty sure the amounts are very small, but the iron for sure won't be helpful to the stability of the mix.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

^ The P.A.N. brand "pre-cooked white maize meal" only contains white maize flour. I see no mention of vitamin enrichment on the multilingual package. It does state "this product contains genetically modified organisms", which is sort of funny... genetically modified OSS. For reference, I see Amazon is selling it.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Here is a scope shot of the Kroger cornmeal I used in mine. No scale, but these are less than 1mm.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

big0mike said:


> That's a distinct possibility. Maybe I need to pull out my nail board and revisit my test? Damn, just realized I pulled the rim strips outta my "test bike" since I never ride it and was gonna sell it. It'll take some work to set 'em back up tubeless. Unless I wanna test on my real tires.


And if you're using a wheel worth anything, make sure your nails aren't too long. The first time I did a puncture test, the nails stuck up about 2" out of the board. After a few punctures I ended up hitting a nipple hole and punctured the Stan's tape. I also dented the rim bed a bit. Dumb idea.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

^^ That looks great. Same grainy surface.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

thuren said:


> I laid out some of this mix, along with some stans, and some continental tubeless sealant on a table overnight, to see how they set up and if they dried or "skinned" at the same rate. The Stans and my mix were VERY similar, and the Continental sealant basically dried up solid overnight.
> 
> Will report back after use.


I can confirm this result. Earlier this year Stan came out with a video where he benchmarked a bunch of sealants with a sealant evaporation test. This test is easy to do and I ran it myself with Stan's, OSS and another sealant. Although exposure to open air is not the same as inside a tire, the results probably correlate well with long-term in-tire stability, especially if you are running a thin-walled tire with higher porosity. Stan's and OSS are similar whereas some other sealants on the market dry/coagulate much much faster.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

They had PAN white and yellow but both in the store I use were "fortified". Guess I need to shop on Amazon.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

OK, so I don't have the nice microphoto setup - but here are rubber crumb, yellow corn meal (Pioneer), a #60 drill bit (1.016mm), and grits (Quaker). I note that both corn products are fortified. May be a USDA thing









Grits and crumb are about 1.5-2mm, whereas the yellow cornmeal is more like 0.5mm.

PAN precooked harina blanca:









Stanchunks:









Earlier yellow cornmeal


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

So is the COOKED or UNCOOKED corn meal ideal? Looks like some of both have been used...


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> So is the COOKED or UNCOOKED corn meal ideal? Looks like some of both have been used...


I'm thinking that by the time the corn has soaked a bit, it will be just like precooked - expanded and fluffy. I would soak some yellow cornmeal overnight, but I've proven the quality of my photo gear.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Something I have been thinking about......

Initially I thought a more thick mix would help seal the tire. While it may initially, I feel like a VERY thin consistency, will lead to a longer life. Sort of hard to put into words, but my thinking is a thin mix will splash around inside the tire, and sort of continuously wash the chunks off the walls. If the mix is to thick, it won't splash around and keep things moving. Just something to consider when mixing your proportions. My next mix will be extra thin/water like, just to see if it reduces the formation of boogers and buildup of latex inside the tire, as things will keep thrashing around in the tire more.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

There's gotta be a happy medium with it's viscosity. Too watery and it just squirts out unless your chunks are big enough. And, too watery to means there's not enough latex which would mean it won't seal. I'll be looking forward to your results, though :thumbsup:


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

albertdc said:


> What are your ratios? Anything special when you mix it up?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2


About 3:1 RV AF to latex, I just fill a mason jar 3/4 full with antifreeze, and put latex in till it's mostly full--shake it up for a little while.

I use pretty coarse corn meal so I throw it in the tire before I seal it up with a good dose, and add more when I can't hear it sloshing around in there. Seems like the corn meal stays in suspension if you don't let it dry out completely.

edit:The 'Bob's Mill' I have isn't fortified, but it's expensive too. They do make a fine mill, that would probably be the one to get if you want to pre-mix it.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

thuren said:


> Something I have been thinking about......
> 
> Initially I thought a more thick mix would help seal the tire. While it may initially, I feel like a VERY thin consistency, will lead to a longer life. Sort of hard to put into words, but my thinking is a thin mix will splash around inside the tire, and sort of continuously wash the chunks off the walls. If the mix is to thick, it won't splash around and keep things moving. Just something to consider when mixing your proportions. My next mix will be extra thin/water like, just to see if it reduces the formation of boogers and buildup of latex inside the tire, as things will keep thrashing around in the tire more.





big0mike said:


> There's gotta be a happy medium with it's viscosity. Too watery and it just squirts out unless your chunks are big enough. And, too watery to means there's not enough latex which would mean it won't seal. I'll be looking forward to your results, though :thumbsup:


I tried a thick mix, and it was not the answer. But that was basically so much chunkulation with less liquid that it just balled up and wasn't available to a puncture.

I'm not sure viscosity is the right way to look at it tho. What we've got is a carrier liquid (water/glycol) with chunkulation - but part of that is the latex, which is dispersed in the carrier. I could see a very liquid blend - lot's'O'carrier - keeping the chunks available to every possible puncture - but there needs to be enough chunk at the site. I can visualize something like vegetable soup, as a for instance. A lot of folks have tried thickeners of various types, but I've seen some negative reports on that lately.

Perhaps we need a Chunk/Liquid ratio? WSS V.1 is 1/1/1/2 - but Slime already has a C/L, call it 50/50 - so chunks are latex 20%, Slime 10% - C/L = 30/70 or .43

The Steve-S cornmeal blend is:

400 ml (13.5 fl.oz.) distilled water
300 ml (10.1 fl.oz.) propylene glycol (PG), pharmaceutical grade
1.2 ml (1/4 tsp.) xanthan gum
50 ml (1.7 fl.oz.) 5% ammonia solution*
250 ml (8.5 fl.oz.) liquid latex
30 ml (2 tbsp.) pre-cooked white maize meal (cornmeal), P.A.N. brand

So 250+30ml/400+300+1.2+50 = 280/751.2 = .37 Or if you count xanthan gum as a chunk - 281.2/750= .38

Same general neighborhood, looks like.

My last batch was 
16oz latex
16oz slime (50/50)
4oz rubber crumb
8oz clear ammonia
32oz distilled water
16oz propylene glycol

so 16+8+4/8+8+32+16 = 28/64 = .44 Whoo! Apparent viscosity is not different from WSS V1 above. Fairly liquid, easy to shake/mix, pulled into the syringe and injected ok - altho I did actually manage to initially block the 1/4" tube trying to fill the 2oz syringe, but pushed in the plunger, pulled again, it was fine after that.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

Just for reference:
A few weeks ago I went through all the OSS recipes and calculated the relative proportions of the liquid ingredients in percent. Considering there are different batch volumes, this is a good way to compare recipes. This is not considering any chunks.
water / PG / 5% ammonia / latex (all in percent of total volume)
OSSv1c: 55/22/1/22
yourdayguy NEW: 43/27/3/27
OSSv1d/OSSv1e: 43/27/3/27
Eurotrash666: 42/28/5/25
my OSS SI-vs: 40/30/5/25

In general, all the recipes have about 1/4 latex.
Eurotrash's recipe and mine go heavier on the ammonia compared to the others.
OSSv1c is comparatively watery and light on ammonia.

Your last batch would be:
water / PG / 5% ammonia / latex / (SLIME)
22/22/11/22/22

I've never used slime, so it's hard for me to judge how it effects the mix.
It looks like a lot of ammonia compared to other OSS recipes.
It also seems like a pretty dry mix, considering only 22% water.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

*Vitamin enriched cornmeal.. concern?*



yourdaguy said:


> They had PAN white and yellow but both in the store I use were "fortified". Guess I need to shop on Amazon.


I don't know if the fortified type would cause a problem. If you're worried about unwanted ions dissolving into solution and possibly effecting the brew, you might consider soaking and then rinsing the cornmeal with distilled/RO water before adding it to the mix.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Good Idea!


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Steve-S said:


> Just for reference:
> 
> In general, all the recipes have about 1/4 latex.


I think this is a really big factor, being that the Liquid Latex is the main thickener.

Some of my earlier mixes had much higher percentage Latex. Current version has about 28% latex. My next batch will probably be closer to 22% latex, and a little less Propylene Glycol, to try and reduce the weeping, and let the Latex/Cornmeal to "set up" quicker.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

^ It's an interesting question whether less PG will reduce weeping. I'm not sure. 
When weeping occurs, the visible clear droplets forming on the sidewall over time are most certainly PG. But if PG can seep through a microscopic sidewall pore, I would expect water and ammonia to seep through too. Because weeping is such a slow process, the water and ammonia have enough time to evaporate, so only the PG is left behind.
It's been reported that some brews reduce weeping. Maybe the better brews are just doing a better job of sealing the sidewall pores on a microscopic level? I'm not sure.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

*Coarse Yellow Cornmeal after OSS-Soak*

I just rinsed off some of the coarse yellow cornmeal I had soaking in OSS for about a week. There isn't much of a visible change. It feels a little softer, but the chunks still don't mush like with the pre-cooked cornmeal. 1mm drill bit for reference.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm curious about what factors contribute to getting a nice thin latex skin covering the inner walls of the tire. 

My latest batch produced a thick coagulated layer, leaving very little sealant in liquid form to move around and migrate to punctures. I've seen other sealants that leave basically no skin at all. 

Does it make sense that having a higher or lower ratio of ammonia would affect this? Would too much ammonia prevent the latex from drying into a skin?... while too little would encourage the latex to harden causing a thicker skin or even booger formation? 

In an earlier post someone suggest that my thick coagulated inner skin was a result of the xanthum gum, which makes sense. I'm curious what the experts think about the role of ammonia in getting the ideal inner skin.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

One of these evenings I'll look for corn meal at Fry's. Not sure if they'll have cooked or uncooked. I always assumed that if you took corn meal and got it wet it turned into something like batter.

But, as I was washing my hands with some Orange-greasy-cleaner-stuff this morning I wondered if there's some kind of pumice that may work well?


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

If anybody's going to Mammoth they could scoop some up and UPS it to you to test


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

doismellbacon said:


> I'm curious about what factors contribute to getting a nice thin latex skin covering the inner walls of the tire.
> 
> My latest batch produced a thick coagulated layer, leaving very little sealant in liquid form to move around and migrate to punctures. I've seen other sealants that leave basically no skin at all.
> 
> ...


I would expect that a higher ammonia content could improve the long-term sealant stability by preventing latex coagulation. But when the brew is fresh there really shouldn't be any latex coagulation unless there is something foul in the mix (e.g. calcium or magnesium ions from using hard tap water, nasty antifreeze additives, etc.). I think the initial viscosity of the brew is determined by other factors than the amount of ammonia.

My OSS is noticeably thicker compared to Stan's and I'm wondering if the xanthan gum is really a good thing. I agree with your point that there needs to be a mobile liquid in the tire in order to transport adequate sealant and chunks to the puncture location. All sealants get thicker over time in the tire, so I would expect a brew that starts out thick to lose this puncture sealing capability sooner.

Viscosity comparison:
I recently poured a couple of ounces of OSS and Stan's onto plastic plates. I tipped the plates at an angle to pool the sealant at one end. Then I dropped both plates flat on the table and watched how fast the sealants distributed across the surface of each plate. The OSS was much slower (more viscous) compared to Stan's. After a few days, both the OSS and Stan's thickened up considerably. The OSS then left a thick skin across the plate, whereas Stan's left only a very thin layer.
In any case, there may be better long-term performance with a thinner brew and I plan to test a xanthan-free mix soon.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Steve-S said:


> I would expect that a higher ammonia content could improve the long-term sealant stability by preventing latex coagulation. But when the brew is fresh there really shouldn't be any latex coagulation unless there is something foul in the mix (e.g. calcium or magnesium ions from using hard tap water, nasty antifreeze additives, etc.). I think the initial viscosity of the brew is determined by other factors than the amount of ammonia.
> 
> My OSS is noticeably thicker compared to Stan's and I'm wondering if the xanthan gum is really a good thing. I agree with your point that there needs to be a mobile liquid in the tire in order to transport adequate sealant and chunks to the puncture location. All sealants get thicker over time in the tire, so I would expect a brew that starts out thick to lose this puncture sealing capability sooner.
> 
> ...


To me, my old WSS was always too thick....probably from the Slime and always seemed to thicken up v. quickly even if I started out watery. My new OSS (Stan's copy) is great...very thin and slosshy in the tire which as to be better at keeping it active and less likely to coagulate into boogers etc. The mix I listed above for my OSS following the proportions in the original Stan's patent application gave it a great consistency.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

My latest mix feels PERFECT!

Did a 48hour "skin test" compared to Stan's, and they feel almost identical It is VERY watery just like Stan's. I'm about 20% latex. My goal is to try less latex with extra Ammonia, to try and keep the cornmeal active inside the tire. Will report back after a few weeks of use. I'll be giving some friends the mix to try themselves also.

36oz distilled water
28oz 98% Propylene Glycol
2oz 10% Ammonia 
16oz Liquid Latex
2.5 Stan's 2oz scooper of fine Cornmeal


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Told you so.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

Here are the recipe proportions for comparison:

water / PG / 5% ammonia / latex (all in percent of total brew volume)

OSSv1c: 55/22/1/22
yourdayguy NEW: 43/27/3/27
OSSv1d/OSSv1e: 43/27/3/27
Eurotrash666: 42/28/5/25
Steve S.'s OSS SI-v3: 40/30/5/25
new:
Stan's Clone: 44/38/0..??/19
Thuren OSS: 44/34/4.8/19 (note: 10% ammonia used.. volume scaled x2)

Regarding chunk volume:
Previous recipes often called for 2 tablespoons (1 fl.oz.) of chunks per quart of brew: 3.1% by volume
The Stan's patent is half that: 1.6% by volume
Thuren's brew is extra chunky by comparison: 6% !!

@TiGeo, 
Are you going light on the chunks? (1 tablespoon per quart of brew)
Are you adding any ammonia or are you just relying on what's in the latex?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Steve-S said:


> @TiGeo,
> Are you going light on the chunks? (1 tablespoon per quart of brew)
> Are you adding any ammonia or are you just relying on what's in the latex?


I probably have a bit more than a TBS, but not a ton. I am not adding any ammonia....I just go with what is in the Mold Builder. My stuff is basically just like Stans down to the feel of the chunks.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Steve-S said:


> The Stan's patent is half that: 1.6% by volume
> Thuren's brew is extra chunky by comparison: 6% !!


Oh I forgot to note how I got where I did with the cornmeal quantity....

I took a fresh 32oz bottle of Stan's and dumped it in a small clear graduated quart bucket. I let the stans sit for about 24 hours to observe the layer of settled chunks, which we're assuming is cornmeal. The settled cornmeal came up to about the 3oz mark on the bucket. I did the same thing with my brew, and matched the approximate level. I may have a little bit more chunks by volume, but not much more than Stan's. When a puddle is laid out to settle on a table over night, the chunk quantity looks VERY similar.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

*Chunkulator quantity*



thuren said:


> Oh I forgot to note how I got where I did with the cornmeal quantity....
> 
> I took a fresh 32oz bottle of Stan's and dumped it in a small clear graduated quart bucket. I let the stans sit for about 24 hours to observe the layer of settled chunks, which we're assuming is cornmeal. The settled cornmeal came up to about the 3oz mark on the bucket. I did the same thing with my brew, and matched the approximate level. I may have a little bit more chunks by volume, but not much more than Stan's. When a puddle is laid out to settle on a table over night, the chunk quantity looks VERY similar.


That's a good idea. 
I just looked at my last bottle of OSS. Judging by the height of cornmeal sediment at the bottom of the bottle, it looks like more than the 3% volume (2 tablespoons / quart) I was expecting. Is the pre-cooked cornmeal swelling once it soaks in the OSS? 
I'm going to check into this and I'll post the results once I know more.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

A different corn based chunk - Masa! Or masa de maiz. Got it at Wally (but I live in the southwest where it is common). Basically powdered tortilla, just add water, salt - form and bake.

Ingredients: Selected corn treated with lime (nixtamalizado!) - also known as calcium hydroxide. Basically the same process as making hominy, but ground as a coarse flour.

One of the stated concerns about corn meal was the "fortified" additives, such as iron and niacin. Lime is a base, as is ammonia - but there could be some reactivity.

No pic, but particle size looks like 0.1mm. Too fine?


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

wadester said:


> A different corn based chunk - Masa! Or masa de maiz. Got it at Wally (but I live in the southwest where it is common). Basically powdered tortilla, just add water, salt - form and bake.
> 
> Ingredients: Selected corn treated with lime (nixtamalizado!) - also known as calcium hydroxide. Basically the same process as making hominy, but ground as a coarse flour.
> 
> ...


That may be too fine. If you're trying to emulate Stan's, you'd probably want particles in the 0.3 - 1mm range.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

*Cornmeal soak-test comparison*

I found some fine white cornmeal that's not the precooked type.
The particle size is very similar to the PAM precooked white cornmeal I previously posted pictures of. 
I filled a small graduated 100ml pitcher up to the 30ml line with dry cornmeal and then topped off the pitcher to 100ml with distilled water.
In a 2nd identical pitcher I did the same with the fine white PRECOOKED cornmeal.
What happened?







Within an hour, the normal uncooked cornmeal increased in volume up to the 40ml line: x1.3.
The precooked cornmeal swelled to 80ml: x2.7
This is a huge difference.
The precooked cornmeal particles are acting like little sponges that almost triple in volume when they get wet. This may make a big difference in how well the particles seal.
I previously reported that the precooked type worked extremely well.
I haven't run a puncture test with the uncooked cornmeal, but this is definitely on my list.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Anyone do better than just less than $40 a gal for PG? I can find it on Amazon for that...anything cheaper? I want to ditch the red RV O'reilly anti freeze ( because it might contain things that cause boogers? ) but the price is killing me.

Alternately - could my hard water be causing booger problems in greater proportion than the RV Antifreeze? I have never used RO/distilled...because I figured compared to my dirty containers and other things it couldn't possibly matter. maybe I was off base there.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

slcpunk said:


> Alternately - could my hard water be causing booger problems in greater proportion than the RV Antifreeze? I have never used RO/distilled...because I figured compared to my dirty containers and other things it couldn't possibly matter. maybe I was off base there.


Hard water is bad for the brew. After mixing a batch of OSS I rinsed out my mixing pitcher with hard tap water. The latex in the leftover brew immediately coagulated. I tried the same with distilled water instead and the latex did not coagulate. 
I searched on Google and found this concern confirmed in a FAQ from Holden's Latex:
"Question: IF MY LATEX IS TOO THICK, MAY I USE TAP WATER TO DILUTE THE LATEX?
Tap water is not a very good thinner for latex since it may contain Calcium and Magnesium salts. Even small amounts of the salts of Calcium and Magnesium have a tendency to coagulate the latex. Hard water must never be used."

From what I read about latex, the rubber particles in liquid latex are surrounded by a negatively charged protein layer. The positively charged metal ions can neutralize this protein layer, resulting in coagulation between rubber particles. Acids have the same effect. Put a drop of vinegar in some liquid latex and see what happens  Ammonia stabilizes the latex by neutralizing any acids. It also kills off any unwanted bacteria.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Wow - thanks Steve-S that's awesome info. That could explain my boogering! I have added ammonia in my mix too, as I am combatting dry desert weather ( well, not now, but most of the summer ) I'll certainly go with some distilled water to start - cheaper than the PG. ( I'm sure I'll end up using PG too ... but maybe I'll start in smaller quantities to avoid the one time sticker shock - still cheaper than Stans! )


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

slcpunk said:


> Anyone do better than just less than $40 a gal for PG? I can find it on Amazon for that...anything cheaper? I want to ditch the red RV O'reilly anti freeze ( because it might contain things that cause boogers? ) but the price is killing me..


Check veterinary supply houses - here's some for $20/gallon:

http://www.valleyvet.com/

Shipping may still be problematic -weight 10 lbs. Shop around.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Also, the PG that you buy in Vet supply houses is generally very pure PG since it would normally be USP which is U. S. Pharmacopia and is a standard of purity, etc. They feed it to dairy cows so it has to be pure.


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## mces (Apr 12, 2011)

I got mine at a local Farm and Garden Store chain. They had to order it from a local distributor and was around $32/gal


slcpunk said:


> Anyone do better than just less than $40 a gal for PG? I can find it on Amazon for that...anything cheaper? I want to ditch the red RV O'reilly anti freeze ( because it might contain things that cause boogers? ) but the price is killing me.
> 
> Alternately - could my hard water be causing booger problems in greater proportion than the RV Antifreeze? I have never used RO/distilled...because I figured compared to my dirty containers and other things it couldn't possibly matter. maybe I was off base there.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Has anyone done any research regarding the effects of Ammonia on a bike tire? Just curious. I figure that Stan's has a little ammonia, and the tires seem to last fine, so whats wrong with a little more?








I ask, as I was doing a tire swap from rim-to-rim, where both tires were new and installed at the same basic time. One tire I used Stan's, and one tire used my mix with the heavier ratio of Ammonia. The below picture is what the inside of the tire looked like after 2 weeks with just a rinse from the hose. No wiping. I did not take a picture of the Stan's tire, but there was definately some spots where the Stan's was starting stick and glue inside the tire.

I know this is only two weeks, but I have NEVER had a tire not start to have some hardening of the latex inside the tire, even just a little.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

slcpunk said:


> Anyone do better than just less than $40 a gal for PG? I can find it on Amazon for that...anything cheaper? I want to ditch the red RV O'reilly anti freeze ( because it might contain things that cause boogers? ) but the price is killing me.
> 
> Alternately - could my hard water be causing booger problems in greater proportion than the RV Antifreeze? I have never used RO/distilled...because I figured compared to my dirty containers and other things it couldn't possibly matter. maybe I was off base there.


$20 a gal at Tractor Supply.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

thuren said:


> Has anyone done any research regarding the effects of Ammonia on a bike tire? Just curious. I figure that Stan's has a little ammonia, and the tires seem to last fine, so whats wrong with a little more?
> View attachment 846210
> 
> 
> ...


This speaks to the question I asked a page or two back.... if the ammonia is what keeps the latex from hardening, and I'm getting a very thick layer of latex forming very quickly, then it stands to reason that more ammonia will combat that.... and too much could potentially stop the formation of an inner skin. Am i off base in my thinking? I think you guys have a good idea about monitoring the ratios of ingredients.

Also stands to reason that the xantham gum was making the brew too thick and sticky.

I still haven't gotten around to making another batch, but will soon without xantham, and will watch the ammonia level carefully.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

thuren said:


> Has anyone done any research regarding the effects of Ammonia on a bike tire? Just curious. I figure that Stan's has a little ammonia, and the tires seem to last fine, so whats wrong with a little more?
> View attachment 846210
> 
> 
> ...


During those two weeks, did you have a chance to see the sealant work? Goathead for example?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Steve-S said:


> I found some fine white cornmeal that's not the precooked type.
> The particle size is very similar to the PAM precooked white cornmeal I previously posted pictures of.
> I filled a small graduated 100ml pitcher up to the 30ml line with dry cornmeal and then topped off the pitcher to 100ml with distilled water.
> In a 2nd identical pitcher I did the same with the fine white PRECOOKED cornmeal.
> ...


At what point is there too much swelling? Something that would prevent sealant from going through a stem? I'm running Schraeders so not as worried about it but most of you probably have those little Presta valves...


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

TiGeo said:


> $20 a gal at Tractor Supply.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Thanks all - looks like I have another excuse to try to make a trip to Fruita this fall... ( closest tractor supply store is in Grand Junction, CO )


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

ElwoodT said:


> During those two weeks, did you have a chance to see the sealant work? Goathead for example?


Nope. But, note the hardening of the latex doing what it's supposed to do at the bead. Where I ride, there are very little thorns if at all. That said, my tires are beading up and sealing over night like never before. Working SO good.

I may do a true puncture test soon on a worn tire. I'll probably take video.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

doismellbacon said:


> This speaks to the question I asked a page or two back.... if the ammonia is what keeps the latex from hardening, and I'm getting a very thick layer of latex forming very quickly, then it stands to reason that more ammonia will combat that.... and too much could potentially stop the formation of an inner skin. Am i off base in my thinking? I think you guys have a good idea about monitoring the ratios of ingredients.


That is why I tried more than the norm, regarding Ammonia volume. I don't want the brew inside the tire hardening at all, within reason.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I believe rubber is relatively immune to ammonia (alkaline). In fact, isn't latex the main ingredient in rubber? It seems that once the latex hardens, no amount of ammonia dissolves it so I think we are OK with the tires and ammonia. Any chemists want to enlighten us?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I just had a thought that seems it could prove useful, albeit a slight pain in the ass.

How about TWO distinctly different sealants?

A thicker sealant with no chunks for sealing the bead and making it airtight. 

A thinner sealant with chunks/lint/hair for punctures.

I'm pretty sure my batch is too thick. It typically takes 6 to 8 oz of sealant to seal a big 2.5" tire leaving some sealant in there for punctures. When it seals it's pretty robust but I think maybe it's not lasting as long because it's so thick.

I added some extra RO water to my mix and it thinned up a little but think it might not be thin enough. Tough call 'cause I know at some point too thin won't work.

With my additional water I'm at:

16 oz PG
32 oz (up from 26oz) RO water
16 oz latex
2 oz ammonia
2 tsp xantham gum

I think more is in order but not sure if I should go more PG or more RO. I think 1 tsp of Xantham is plenty, too.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

bigOmike; I would ditch the xantham gum. I plan on ditching it in my next batch. Also, along you idea. You could inject sealant that is thicker and then after the tire seals put in a mixture of water, PG, ammonia, and whatever chunkulator through the valve stem to thin it down. I don't necessarily think this will work better, but that would be an easy way to try it.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Yeah, it seems everyone is ditching the xantham but I like what it does in holding things together and not letting your chunks sink  Maybe that's not even an issue, though...


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> Yeah, it seems everyone is ditching the xantham but I like what it does in holding things together and not letting your chunks sink  Maybe that's not even an issue, though...


When the tire is rolling down the trail, the sealant is well mixed - splashing everywhere! The "holding things together/not letting chunks sink" would mostly help in getting an even mix into the tire from the jug - but a good shake before dispensing can do that. I think that having the mix more liquid allows the trail agitation to keep the chunkulation well distributed. The recent pics of high ammonia mix not plating out onto the inside of the tire plays into this. The liquid parts are just for keeping the chunks moving around and available to any possible hole - which also means keeping the latex from pre-coagulating. The xanthan gum wasn't really a chunk, and definitely not a liquid.


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

Things seem to be moving along , it appears a suitable replacement of "Stan's" now does not need slime in the mix , instead using cornmeal. It looks to me like mold builder , food grade PG , distilled water, ammonia and corn meal might be a good combination. Now to figure out a mix ratio to get a consistency near what seems to be the benchmark, Stan's.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Fred Smedley said:


> Things seem to be moving along , it appears a suitable replacement of "Stan's" now does not need slime in the mix , instead using cornmeal. It looks to me like mold builder , food grade PG , distilled water, ammonia and corn meal might be a good combination. Now to figure out a mix ratio to get a consistency near what seems to be the benchmark, Stan's.


The mix ratio is done - go back up a page or so and find my post where I had the ratios based on Stan's patent application...mine is Stan's like in consistency using those ratios.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Here's the post: #2539

And quote:



> TiGeo said: New OSS (that I call BAMFS 2.0). Mold Builder, distilled water, PG, corn meal. 1:2.3:2: pinch, respectively.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> The mix ratio is done - go back up a page or so and find my post where I had the ratios based on Stan's patent application...mine is Stan's like in consistency using those ratios.


I just reread your ratios. Sweet Jesus that's liquidy. Probably close to twice my mix... Gonna try more liquid but not sure if I wanna go that thin.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

big0mike said:


> I just reread your ratios. Sweet Jesus that's liquidy. Probably close to twice my mix... Gonna try more liquid but not sure if I wanna go that thin.


Have you ever used Stan's? It's very thin.

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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> Have you ever used Stan's? It's very thin.


Nope. Decided to go tubeless maybe three years ago and too many people pushed me to homebrew so never had to.

I misread your ratios, missing the . in 2.3. So you've got 5.3 parts out of 6.3 parts or 85% "liquid". I've got about 3 of 4 parts liquid or 75% "liquid". That was after me adding some more water. Before it was 2.5 of 4 parts or 63%.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Mike, I was the same way. Never used Stan's went straight in 100% home brew. That first mix was way too thick.

I blew out a carbon rim racing Downieville this summer, and Stan's sealed up so fast I realized "watery" was the way to go. If you have an issue, let gravity get all the chunks there. Too thick and the hole fillers sit in the tire where you don't want them.

Another way to think about it...... You don't need BIG chunks, you just need a lot of the small chunks. If you get a holein the tire, the smaller chunks back up an create a plug. Does not take one chuck, but a lot of small ones. If they can wash around in the tire, they can eventually find the hole. If they sit in one place, and are slow to move, what good are they?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

big0mike said:


> Nope. Decided to go tubeless maybe three years ago and too many people pushed me to homebrew so never had to.
> 
> I misread your ratios, missing the . in 2.3. So you've got 5.3 parts out of 6.3 parts or 85% "liquid". I've got about 3 of 4 parts liquid or 75% "liquid". That was after me adding some more water. Before it was 2.5 of 4 parts or 63%.


Keep in mind, Stan's is the benchmark...it works and it works well...its v. think. I think it would be good for you try some Stan's to see what you are trying to re-create/make better (basically what this whole thread is about). Don't be scared of the wateriness!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I wish I had some of my original WSS still to compare where I'm at now in liquidity with what the original was. I think I'm thicker now and that's likely due to the xantham. Well, I've got enough for maybe two more tires and I've got to reseat a new rear with a slightly bulging hole I'm not terribly comfortable with so I'll be making another batch relatively soon anyways...


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I just watched a "How Things Work" that was about Corn and Xantham Gum if fermented from Corn and one of its main uses is in drilling. It is used to keep the particles suspended and away from the working parts. Sounds like the opposite of what we need. We need our particles to fall out of suspension and go to the problem.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> I just watched a "How Things Work" that was about Corn and Xantham Gum if fermented from Corn and one of its main uses is in drilling. It is used to keep the particles suspended and away from the working parts. Sounds like the opposite of what we need. We need our particles to fall out of suspension and go to the problem.


I'm no scientist but I'd think that the chunks will get blown out the puncture one way or another but I have to agree that keeping them in suspension is making the sealant microscopically less efficient. If the chunk is on the surface of the tire less sealant gets blown out before the chunk seals. Time for a v1f for me...


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

TiGeo said:


> The mix ratio is done - go back up a page or so and find my post where I had the ratios based on Stan's patent application...mine is Stan's like in consistency using those ratios.


Stan's has been around for a long time now, so to say that the mix ratio is "done" going off an old patent application, I feel is assuming too much. Stan's may have changed over the years, and surely Stan's and most other products out there are formulated with business profit in mind. When modeling around profit margin, often the product is not the BEST it can be. Stan's is awesome, but all of us experimenting here may soon come up with something better, in all regards of performance.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

thuren said:


> Stan's has been around for a long time now, so to say that the mix ratio is "done" going off an old patent application, I feel is assuming too much. Stan's may have changed over the years, and surely Stan's and most other products out there are formulated with business profit in mind. When modeling around profit margin, often the product is not the BEST it can be. Stan's is awesome, but all of us experimenting here may soon come up with something better, in all regards of performance.


I always thought WSS was better than Stans, both for initial inflation and longer life. It is a little thicker than Stan's but plenty thin for effective distribution. I am referring to the original WSS ratio of 1,1,1,2 (1 latex, 1 slime, 1 EG (or PG), 2 water).

The purpose of OSS was to use all pure ingredients to extend sealant life but I never noticed any performance improvement over WSS. That may be partly because at some point other factors begin to trump sealant life, things such as sidewall and tread cuts, burps, changing tires, replacing a spoke, etc. I do think the fibers and chunks in tubeless slime are superior to what has been tried to date, but again I don't see much difference in performance compared to the silica gel grit.


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## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

This thread was born out of the need to improve the imperfections of Stans and the other tyre sealant products. Almost every one, me included, agreed that WSS / OSS works better than Stans. Remember when BogOmike posted this video [http://vimeo.com/45036177] and everyone was in awe about the improvement over schtanz. For the past 105 pages we improved on it. Then suddenly, Stans became the benchmark. I agree that we can learn from Stans; the use of the corn meal example. To mimick Stans will lead us to a product similar to Stans and we end up looking for an alternative improved "secret sause"...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Richard Muller said:


> This thread was born out of the need to improve the imperfections of Stans and the other tyre sealant products. Almost every one, me included, agreed that WSS / OSS works better than Stans. Remember when BogOmike posted this video [http://vimeo.com/45036177] and everyone was in awe about the improvement over schtanz. For the past 105 pages we improved on it. Then suddenly, Stans became the benchmark. I agree that we can learn from Stans; the use of the corn meal example. To mimick Stans will lead us to a product similar to Stans and we end up looking for an alternative improved "secret sause"...


Maybe I should have prefaced my comments above better. For me, I am involved in this thread to save money by producing a Stan's-like sealant for less money (ok...ok...its kinda fun too!). I know some here are trying to improve upon Stan's...that isn't my primary goal as I believe Stan's works just fine..never had an issue with it...it is the "gold standard". I also would like someone to quantify "improved on it"...how/what specifically has been improved upon?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

The way to look at it is that Stan's is the baseline. Sealant Zero. WSS kept similar sealing performance, but at lower cost and longer service life. OSS addresses "premature coagulation", so increases service life - but with some additional expense. We're currently working on better chunkulation, carrier liquid to chunkulation ratio, and best ammonia content. The biggest problem is that data points can take a long time. Sealant Zero goes for about 3 months/install, where WSS can go up to a year. We have had a few "instant fail" things, such as glitter and high chunk-to-liquid ratios. Xanthan gum is now starting to return data that it's not helpful (not bad, just not yielding an improvement), and Eurotrash666 proposed it back in Feb 2012 - call it 1 1/2 years!


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

*Puncture Testing Results: Standard (Uncooked) vs. Pre-cooked Cornmeal*

Over the weekend I ran a nail puncture test with OSS comparing standard (uncooked) and pre-cooked fine white cornmeal.
In both cases I had an equivalent of 2 tablespoons of cornmeal per quart (liter) of sealant.
I put a about 2 ounces (60ml) of sealant in a Bontrager XR2 team issue tire and inflated to 30psi (2 bars).
I punctured the tire on my 5-nail test board 5 times (25 punctures total).

Results:
Both standard and pre-cooked cornmeal sealed very well. With the standard uncooked cornmeal it looked like there was slightly higher sealant loss, but I don't think it's significant.
Both are providing good puncture sealing performance and at this point I'm interested in comparing the long-term stability.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

big0mike said:


> I'm no scientist but I'd think that the chunks will get blown out the puncture one way or another but I have to agree that keeping them in suspension is making the sealant microscopically less efficient. If the chunk is on the surface of the tire less sealant gets blown out before the chunk seals. Time for a v1f for me...


I'm not sure. When a puncture occurs, it's improbable that chunks are located right on top of the hole and I expect that sealant flow is required to transport chunks into the puncture. With this in mind, I think it is good to have the particles in suspension, so they can "go with the flow." The sealant needs to be liquid for this all to work. If the sealant is too thick, air will just blow a hole through the goo and little to no particle transport can occur.

A comment regarding xanthan gum:
The original idea behind using xanthan gum was good: stabilize (thicken) the brew to keep the chunks in suspension (Eurotrash's post #1355).
But I think 2 factors may not have been considered back then:
1. the sealant is thrashing around inside a rolling tire and the particles are in suspension just fine even if the brew is relatively thin
2. over time the sealant will thicken and the thicker the brew starts out, the sooner it will lose its fluidity.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

wadester said:


> The way to look at it is that Stan's is the baseline. Sealant Zero. WSS kept similar sealing performance, but at lower cost and longer service life. OSS addresses "premature coagulation", so increases service life - but with some additional expense. We're currently working on better chunkulation, carrier liquid to chunkulation ratio, and best ammonia content. The biggest problem is that data points can take a long time. Sealant Zero goes for about 3 months/install, where WSS can go up to a year. We have had a few "instant fail" things, such as glitter and high chunk-to-liquid ratios. Xanthan gum is now starting to return data that it's not helpful (not bad, just not yielding an improvement), and Eurotrash666 proposed it back in Feb 2012 - call it 1 1/2 years!


My experience with WSS is that it stayed liquid about as long as Stan's did...~3 mos.


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## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

Steve-S said:


> I'm not sure. When a puncture occurs, it's improbable that chunks are located right on top of the hole and I expect that sealant flow is required to transport chunks into the puncture. With this in mind, I think it is good to have the particles in suspension, so they can "go with the flow." The sealant needs to be liquid for this all to work. If the sealant is too thick, air will just blow a hole through the goo and little to no particle transport can occur.
> 
> A comment regarding xanthan gum:
> The original idea behind using xanthan gum was good: stabilize (thicken) the brew to keep the chunks in suspension (Eurotrash's post #1355).
> ...


Xanthan gum assist to keep the chunks in suspension, providing a homogeneous distribution of chunks. 
Without it, I am worried that the chunks collect on a 12 o'clock position in the tyre - espcially a spinning tyre. Steve-S, unfortunately your sealant test does not accomodate this? [though I must congratulate you on your test - brilliant!]. Will the chunks spread out to a hole in the 10 or 2 o'clock position in a tyre?

Big0mike, on a previous post of yours, I think that the chunks in suspension will be efficient if the viscosity is right.

We currently assess the viscosity of Stans immediately at application, but it will quickly increase as it "premature coagulate" or dries out in 3 months. The improvement of OSS will keep consistancy for a much longer period.

Do we know the thixotropic nature of xanthan gum - i.e. the amount that the sealant thins out during sloshing around in a tyre? Eurotrash666 can probably assist?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

The only way to know what goes on inside the tire is to look:
fat-bikes/how-to-setup-tubeless-wheel-windows


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Great pics Wadester! Any thoughts on optimum viscosity? 

I had a tread puncture incident and rolled the puncture down to the bottom so the sealant (WSS) could seal it. Instead there was just a stream of liquid sealant pissing out of the hole. I rolled the wheel so I wouldn't lose all my sealant, which instantly stopped the leak also. That froth in the wheel window is what stops the leak, so any chunks would have to be capable of being suspended in the thin froth. I imagine the thinner the mix the quicker it becomes dried into rubbery latex by the rush of outgoing air, and conversely, the thicker the mix the longer it would take to form solid latex rubber. I hope the above makes sense...


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

bsieb said:


> ^Great pics Wadester! Any thoughts on optimum viscosity?


Optimum viscosity? Well, I tried thick - and that was complete fail. I thought about xanthan gum - but it didn't seem to act as a chunkulant, and thicker was fail-er, so no.

The original WSS is fairly liquid. The 1/1/1/2 recipe is 0/.5/1/2 liquid, so 70%. I looked back and found a "stan-clone" recipe - 70% liquid. My last batch added clear ammonia and rubber chunks - and was 56% liquid, while sloshing about the same. I have noted that the "big" chunks don't affect the viscosity of the carrier liquid, but the "small" ones, like fiber and latex, do seem to thicken things up - but would you use less latex? I like fiber, and will continue to add slime to the mix.

I'm still thinking it's liquid/chunk ratio rather than viscosity. And I'm counting that gooey latex as chunk, not liquid.



bsieb said:


> That froth in the wheel window is what stops the leak, so any chunks would have to be capable of being suspended in the thin froth. I imagine the thinner the mix the quicker it becomes dried into rubbery latex by the rush of outgoing air, and conversely, the thicker the mix the longer it would take to form solid latex rubber. I hope the above makes sense...


Actually, I think it's spray rather than froth. Even on smooth pavement the contact patch distortion is like a wave throwing the sealant upwards. On a trail, every little bump on the trail is distorting the contact patch and causing even more spray/mixing/chaos. When you stop, after the mad chaos of friction slowly the sealant down, then things pool - and separate. I can recall two punctures on the trail during a ride - that I noted because the sealant sprayed me! Both times, I was sprayed as the hole went over the top (rear tire), then much lighter the second time around, then sealed. Judging by where I got sprayed, they were along the side knob area. I have found residual latex on the underside of the rear rack/seat tube/BB after rides a few times.



bsieb said:


> I had a tread puncture incident and rolled the puncture down to the bottom so the sealant (WSS) could seal it. Instead there was just a stream of liquid sealant pissing out of the hole. I rolled the wheel so I wouldn't lose all my sealant, which instantly stopped the leak also.


I'm thinking of this like taking shampoo to the mountains. You've got a liquid in a container with (now higher than outside pressure) air - and when you open it (facing down, so you get liquid not air) it starts pushing out like mad with no stopping! Until the air can get out, then things slow down quickly. The pressure drops with air loss vs constant pressure pushing liquid, but I bet there is more drying going on too.


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

Richard Muller said:


> Xanthan gum assist to keep the chunks in suspension, providing a homogeneous distribution of chunks.
> Without it, I am worried that the chunks collect on a 12 o'clock position in the tyre - espcially a spinning tyre. Steve-S, unfortunately your sealant test does not accomodate this? [though I must congratulate you on your test - brilliant!]. Will the chunks spread out to a hole in the 10 or 2 o'clock position in a tyre?
> 
> Big0mike, on a previous post of yours, I think that the chunks in suspension will be efficient if the viscosity is right.
> ...


Thanks for the feedback and comments.
When I ran the puncture tests I rotated the wheel by hand from one puncture position to the next, so if the chunks were somehow stuck at one location I would have expected to see a change in puncture sealing performance. With the first puncture test comparing precooked cornmeal to turf I used xanthan gum in my OSS (0.25 tsp. per quart [liter]). In the latest cornmeal puncture comparison I omitted the xanthan gum. I did not notice any loss of sealing performance.

General comment regarding chunk distribution & deposition:
When the wheel is not rolling, I would expect the liquid sealant with chunks in suspension to pool at the bottom of the tire (6 o'clock position). I expect all liquid sealants to do this. 
I've observed with both xanthan gum thickened and unthickened OSS that the brew will separate over time: chunks sediment to the bottom and a lighter layer which I think is mainly the latex component rises to the top. A thicker xanthan gum stabilized brew will take longer to separate, but my observations indicate that chunk sedimentation occurs nonetheless.
When the wheel starts rolling again I can imagine that the liquid pool of sealant flows immediately, but it takes some time for the chunk sediment to be washed back into suspension. I wouldn't be surprised if a thinner brew flushes the chunk sediment back into suspension quicker compared to a more viscous sealant and I doubt that a thinner sealant will have a poor chunk distribution while riding.


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## Zowie (Aug 3, 2013)

I'd just mention the first batch I did I did not use ANY chunks, and had a few punctures as you describe--spraying me, stop, spin the wheel, and it stops leaking.

One pretty large puncture it took a few stop/spins to get it to seal, but it still was not a 'cut' or 'tear', just a good sized puncture from a broken stick on a log. 

Makes sense--as long as there's a stream of liquid, it won't coagulate very quickly...


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

*How does liquid latex seal punctures anyhow?*

Sorry if this is a little technical, but I've been thinking about what mechanism causes the liquid latex to coagulate when the sealant seals a puncture. 
I don't think it has anything to do with ammonia evaporation. The ammonia can only evaporate once the sealant leaves the tire (too late) and even with ammonia removed I wouldn't expect spontaneous coagulation to occur.
I searched online and came across the term "shear-induced coagulation" relating to latex processing. Apparently latex coagulation can occur through improper (too violent) pumping and/or mixing of liquid latex. This reminded me of my first batch of OSS: I used a paint mixer with an electric drill running way too fast and when I removed the mixer from the brew there was a latex booger on the mixing blades. In the case of sealing punctures, when the sealant is forced into the puncture hole the strong fluid shearing that occurs is probably what's causing the spontaneous latex coagulation.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Richard Muller said:


> Xanthan gum assist to keep the chunks in suspension, providing a homogeneous distribution of chunks.
> 
> Big0mike, on a previous post of yours, I think that the chunks in suspension will be efficient if the viscosity is right.


I'm still fairly convinced that some xantham gum would be a good thing. It's just finding that perfect amount that doesn't thicken the brew too much to keep the solution mobile in the tire.

Of course, I thought rubber crumb was gonna be a winner, too... 



Richard Muller said:


> Do we know the thixotropic nature of xanthan gum - i.e. the amount that the sealant thins out during sloshing around in a tyre? Eurotrash666 can probably assist?


I don't think he's chimed in here in months, has he? Seems maybe another one of the newer posters may be in the chemist field, though...



bsieb said:


> I had a tread puncture incident and rolled the puncture down to the bottom so the sealant (WSS) could seal it. Instead there was just a stream of liquid sealant pissing out of the hole. I rolled the wheel so I wouldn't lose all my sealant, which instantly stopped the leak also.


I've had several punctures on the trail that required more than one revolution of the wheel to properly seal. Interesting theory, though. Basically, if your tire were 100% full of sealant it would all spew out the hole if it's facing down. But as soon as you get air blasting through the newly latexed hole it seals. Sounds solid to me...



Steve-S said:


> Sorry if this is a little technical, but I've been thinking about what mechanism causes the liquid latex to coagulate when the sealant seals a puncture.... I searched online and came across the term "shear-induced coagulation" relating to latex processing. Apparently latex coagulation can occur through improper (too violent) pumping and/or mixing of liquid latex. This reminded me of my first batch of OSS: I used a paint mixer with an electric drill running way too fast and when I removed the mixer from the brew there was a latex booger on the mixing blades. In the case of sealing punctures, when the sealant is forced into the puncture hole the strong fluid shearing that occurs is probably what's causing the spontaneous latex coagulation.


With almost every batch I've used my drill with the paint mixer attachment blasting at full speed. No boogers, just occasional clumps of Dane hair on the spindle.

I'm getting ready to swap out that tire with the bubbling slit in it. Gonna add a little more water or PG to my mix. Original mix was 1:1.5:1 PG:Water:Latex. Currently it's at a 1:2:1 mix of PG:Water:Latex both with 2oz of ammonia. I think I'll bump up the PG so I have a 2:2:1: mix of PG:Water:Latex. With the ammonia that'll give me a little more than an 80% liquid to solid ratio.


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## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

Steve-S said:


> A thicker xanthan gum stabilized brew will take longer to separate, but my observations indicate that chunk sedimentation occurs nonetheless.
> When the wheel starts rolling again I can imagine that the liquid pool of sealant flows immediately, but it takes some time for the chunk sediment to be washed back into suspension. I wouldn't be surprised if a thinner brew flushes the chunk sediment back into suspension quicker compared to a more viscous sealant and I doubt that a thinner sealant will have a poor chunk distribution while riding.


Thanks for your thorough posts. This made me think: The xanthan gum is nice when you apply your sealant - all the chunks are evenly spread and do not sediment at the bottom. Stans is known for this sedimentation. No matter how much you shake.

However, in a rotating tyre, the chunks will be suspended by the shear imposed by the fluid. That is, if the fluid is not too viscous.

I was under the impression that the xanthan gum assist more with keeping solids in suspension than increase the viscosity. I was wrong. I quote from Wikipedia [sorry, not a good reference, but will do,...]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthan_gum:

"xanthan gum ... ability to produce a large increase in the viscosity of a liquid by adding a very small quantity of gum. ... In most foods, it is used at 0.5%, and ... lower concentrations. The viscosity of xanthan gum solutions decreases with higher shear rates.... This means that a product subjected to shear... will thin out, but once the shear forces are removed, the food will thicken back up. A practical use would be in salad dressing: the xanthan gum makes it thick enough at rest in the bottle to keep the mixture fairly homogeneous, but the shear forces generated by shaking and pouring thins it, so it can be easily poured. When it exits the bottle, the shear forces are removed and it thickens back up, so it clings to the salad. ... very stable under a wide range of temperatures and pH. Xanthan gum also helps suspend solid particles, such as spices."

Therefore, the viscosity of the sealant on the shelf is not the viscosity in a rotating tyre. If we want to use xanthan gum, we look at minuscule amounts, 1 -0.5%; even less?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Interesting info, Rich. Would have never thought that the thickness would, or could, change when motion is induced.

My thought is that without the xantham gum the chunks would be mobile in the tire but they'd just be rolling along the surface of the tire as it spins. Whereas with the xantham gum it would more likely be in suspension within the fluid as the fluid sloshes around.

That's an important distinction but it's yet to be determined if it's an important factor in sealing the tire as quickly as possible.

Also makes me realize I may start having to add a pinch of xantham gum to my chili


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## Steve-S (Sep 16, 2013)

^^ Very cool information. I also didn't expect the xanthan gum to have a shear thinning characteristic. I'm familiar with thixotropic* liquids that thin when sheared and then re-thicken with a certain time delay. Xantham gum solutions are different. They shear-thin, but then immediately regain their original viscosity. This is considered pseudoplastic, but not thixotropic.
See http://www.jungbunzlauer.com/media/uploads/pdf/Xanthan_Gum/Xanthan_Gum_2006.pdf
"Xanthan gum solutions are highly pseudoplastic but not thixotropic, i.e.
even after high shear rates the initial viscosity is rebuilt instantaneously."

I'm considering adding the XG in a concentrated solution directly to the tire. I'd like to make a long-term A-B comparison with and without XG.

* (from Wikipedia) 
Thixotropy is shear thinning property. Certain gels or fluids that are thick (viscous) under static conditions will flow (become thin, less viscous) over time when shaken, agitated, or otherwise stressed. They then take a fixed time to return to a more viscous state.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

Some days I feel kinda thixotropic

A bike ride usually helps


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## FoolSoft (Sep 24, 2013)

+1 on thixotropic cures! 

Am I the only one less than thrilled about Stan's?

I've had multiple flats with Stan's, with plenty of fresh juice installed. The claim of 1/4" hole sealing is, uhm.... generous in the extreme. The latest was a puncture so small I could barely find it, yet Stan's was blowing out with air like a whale, and no amount of spinning could get it to hold air. I gave up and threw in a tube. 

At home, I compared Stan's and Orange Seal. To my surprise, Stan's had virtually no large aggregate -- tiny crumbles which some suggest may be corn meal? (Sure looks like it). Orange Seal had small (seemed like) Mica. Still too little but way better. Also, orange seal seem to be a bit more durable when dry. Both had similar wet consistencies -- meaning, very thin.

Long story short, I want something better than Stan's. Something like Stan's but with much more (flat?) aggregate to seal better. Mica seems good, but is it better than glitter?

On another note, if my main concern is no flats, and I don't care about weight, can I just use an inner tube (with removable core) filled with fluid? If so, psi recommendations?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

FoolSoft said:


> On another note, if my main concern is no flats, and I don't care about weight, can I just use an inner tube (with removable core) filled with fluid? If so, psi recommendations?


You can run OSS in an inner tube - but it is not as effective as running it in a tubeless setup. It does, however, work. If you're not worried about weight - sealant in a thornproof tube is as effective against flats as tubeless. But you'd better mean it about the weight thing.


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## FoolSoft (Sep 24, 2013)

Just a double-check… consensus is that tubeless, with the proper fluid setup, is actually "as flat resistant" (or possibly better?) than a thorn-proof tube filled with fluid? 

Sure, tubes are heavier, but intuitively, it seems like this sort of "belt and suspenders" approach would have to be more flat resistant. If not, help me understand the logic behind tubeless being more flat resistant (if that is the case).

Given my stellar flat record over the past two months (both with std tubes w/ no fluid, and tubeless with Stan's)—something like six flats!?!?—I'm considering a new career as a Professional Flat Tester! 

Beginning to wonder if it's the tires—Scwhalbe Nobby Nix. The common denominator in all this fun. Any recommendations on a good tire that is also flat resistant?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

FoolSoft said:


> Just a double-check&#8230; consensus is that tubeless, with the proper fluid setup, is actually "as flat resistant" (or possibly better?) than a thorn-proof tube filled with fluid?


There's absolutely no question. A decent tubeless setup with sealant is WAAAAAAAY better than a thick, thorn resistant tube. Not even close...


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

big0mike said:


> There's absolutely no question. A decent tubeless setup with sealant is WAAAAAAAY better than a thick, thorn resistant tube. Not even close...


I agree. I think that possibly sealant in a tube does not work as well as sealant in a tire because the tube is able to stretch and allow the sealant out, whereas the casing of a tire is woven with cords, so it does not stretch as easily, and seals punctures better with sealant.

I know that I have taken regular tires converted to tubeless, with a mixture of mold builder, ATV/Mower slime, and 50/50 antifreeze/water mix to make it runny, and had 27 cactus spines in the tire when it wore out, still holding air just fine.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

Tubes increase rolling resistance and are prone to pinch flats, even with sealant. 

Tubeless is much better on all counts as identified by others in this thread.


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

ljracer said:


> Tubes increase rolling resistance and are prone to pinch flats, even with sealant.
> 
> Tubeless is much better on all counts as identified by others in this thread.


I'd like to see research supporting your premise. I don't doubt RR might be less , I'd just like to see the documentation supporting that assertion. Tubes are better if you change tires often , so on all counts would be debatable. Lighter? depends.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Sealant doesn't work as well with tubes because of the way sealant works. When it goes from pressure to no pressure (actually pressure of all the air above you) it causes the ammonia to evaporate and the latex firms up. With a tube, that change in pressure in the hole in the tube is much less because the area between the tube and the tire will hold some pressure and also, the pressure difference between the tire and the outside air is also less. Also, with a tube and a thorn, you now have 2 holes to seal one in the tube and one in the tire.


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

Fred Smedley said:


> I'd like to see research supporting your premise. I don't doubt RR might be less , I'd just like to see the documentation supporting that assertion. Tubes are better if you change tires often , so on all counts would be debatable. Lighter? depends.


If tubes were faster do you think every racer would be riding tubeless? Do you think road racers would have bothered with the pain of sew ups if tubes were faster?

Yeah, I'm sure road racers have been using sew ups because they are such a joy of convenience. :madman:


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

twowheelsdown2002 said:


> If tubes were faster do you think every racer would be riding tubeless? Do you think road racers would have bothered with the pain of sew ups if tubes were faster?
> 
> Yeah, I'm sure road racers have been using sew ups because they are such a joy of convenience. :madman:


Genius , sews ups (tubulars) have tubes , good one's have latex tubes. Again, show documentation , not speculation. I suspect racers use tubeless beca8se of flat protection with less weight than tubes and sealant. FYI, RR tests show clinchers are faster than sew ups.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

Fred Smedley said:


> Genius , sews ups (tubulars) have tubes , good one's have latex tubes. Again, show documentation , not speculation. I suspect racers use tubeless beca8se of flat protection with less weight than tubes and sealant. FYI, RR tests show clinchers are faster than sew ups.


Theres a place for stuff like this. It's called slowtwitch. Lets leave this stuff to the trigeeks and stay on topic for making a better sealant.


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

ljracer said:


> Theres a place for stuff like this. It's called slowtwitch. Lets leave this stuff to the trigeeks and stay on topic for making a better sealant.


Who called the thought police?


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

*Orange Seal*

I recently finished a new build and decided to switch from Stans sealant to Orange Seal, just to compare the two and see if Orange Seal was any good. I really did not have any major issues with Stans (been running it for over a year). There were a few gashes that would seal and then open back up during the ride, and of course the usual stans shower from time to time.

On my ride last night I picked up a HUGE goat head in my front tire. So I looked at it and decided to pull it out (normally I would just keep on riding and pluck it out at the end of the ride, but the curiosity was killing me.

So I pulled it out, and it sealed up much faster than I expected it to. With Stans I would have expected to hear it hissing air, and then probably need to rotate the tire a few times before it sealed. I would lose a few psi, and I would be able to see some stans coming out.

With the Orange seal, barely any air escaped at all, and it sealed within milliseconds. I was quite pleased. If this is any indication of things to come, I don't ever see going back to Stans (unless they change the formula to better compete  )


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^you might be missing the point of this thread.


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

mtbdennis said:


> With the Orange seal, barely any air escaped at all, and it sealed within milliseconds. I was quite pleased. If this is any indication of things to come, I don't ever see going back to Stans (unless they change the formula to better compete  )


That's good information to hear.

I tried some CaffeLatex, and can tell you to DEFINITELY stay the hell away from that stuff! Like you, I saw a large thorn in the tire.(pencil lead size) But I decided(fortunately) to wait til I got home to remove it. I pulled it out, and it started spraying. I had put 3 Stans size scoops of sealant in. (I live in cactus country, so I use lots of sealant) I spun it around, I shook it, I jumped up and down, and all that happened was 3 scoops of sealant ended up on me and my garage floor.

So I took off the tire. Thoroughly washed it all, and remounted. This time I mixed some homebrew(Scoop of mold builder, 1 1/2 of ATV/mower slime, and 50/50 water/antifreeze mix added until it was runny)

I inflated it with the hole at the top. Air hissed out rapidly. I turned it to the bottom and all I heard was "thhiip".....Hole was sealed, and 1 drop of green was at the hole. I have replaced tires that had 27 spines still inside them, still holding air, with this mix.

I have now renamed CaffeLatex as "CrappeExlax".


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

ElwoodT said:


> ^^you might be missing the point of this thread.


^ahem


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

bsieb said:


> ^ahem


And that is supposed to mean what?


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

ElwoodT said:


> ^^you might be missing the point of this thread.


Title is "best tubeless brew". Please do enlighten me. Is it not possible that the best "brew" is an off the shelf solution?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Brew as in home brew, not commercial product, which are uniformly mediocre. This thread is about formulating the ultimate open source tubeless sealant. Maybe you should give it a try, you might be glad you did.


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

bsieb said:


> ^Brew as in home brew, not commercial product, which are uniformly mediocre. This thread is about formulating the ultimate open source tubeless sealant. Maybe you should give it a try, you might be glad you did.


I really don't see any harm in him mentioning his experience with Orange sealant. Just as I mentioned my experience with CaffeLatex in comparison to my own mixed sealant. I certainly don't want anyone wasting their money on that junk.

There might be times when even a "homebrew" aficionado may be on the road or something and have to resort to a "commercial" sealant. And it certainly does no harm in knowing someone's experience with them, so at least maybe they get something that works somewhat like their homebrew.

It's one thing to think of yourself as the "Thread Police", it's another thing to make yourself the "Thread Nazi".


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

FoolSoft said:


> +1 on thixotropic cures!
> 
> Am I the only one less than thrilled about Stan's?
> 
> ...


I am not convinced that mica is being used...its VERY gritty (like sand) and would cause issues of the tire seating against the rim. I brought a bag of mica I had at work home and dumped some in my WSS and didn't like it...enough so that I tossed the bottle as it was ruined in my opinion. The "aggregate" needs to be something that deforms easier.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

twowheelsdown2002 said:


> I really don't see any harm in him mentioning his experience with Orange sealant. Just as I mentioned my experience with CaffeLatex in comparison to my own mixed sealant. I certainly don't want anyone wasting their money on that junk.
> 
> There might be times when even a "homebrew" aficionado may be on the road or something and have to resort to a "commercial" sealant. And it certainly does no harm in knowing someone's experience with them, so at least maybe they get something that works somewhat like their homebrew.
> 
> It's one thing to think of yourself as the "Thread Police", it's another thing to make yourself the "Thread Nazi".


I think I politely informed the poster what the thread was about and invited him to join the effort. Have you read the thread?


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

My current brew is working SO good. I focused on more water for a thinner mix, more Cornmeal to have more working chunks in the tire, and more ammonia to try and prevent the Latex hardening IN the tire. 

The last few tires I mounted have zero bleeding, and I have not had to add pressure in over 3 rides. Can't wait to pop them apart in about a month to inspect.


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## Shrek1 (Aug 1, 2013)

thuren said:


> My current brew is working SO good. I focused on more water for a thinner mix, more Cornmeal to have more working chunks in the tire, and more ammonia to try and prevent the Latex hardening IN the tire.
> 
> The last few tires I mounted have zero bleeding, and I have not had to add pressure in over 3 rides. Can't wait to pop them apart in about a month to inspect.


What were your ratios?


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Shrek1 said:


> What were your ratios?


36oz distilled water
28oz 98% Propylene Glycol
2oz 10% Ammonia 
16oz Liquid Latex
2.5 Stan's 2oz scooper of fine Cornmeal


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

bsieb said:


> I think I politely informed the poster what the thread was about and invited him to join the effort. Have you read the thread?


And so you're afraid his one post among 107 pages and 2600 posts of drivel is going to make it hard for someone to find relevant information.:thumbsup:


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

mtbdennis said:


> Title is "best tubeless brew". Please do enlighten me. Is it not possible that the best "brew" is an off the shelf solution?


I have read the entirety of the thread and have been following it far longer than I've been a member here. 
I think I can say conclusively, that in this context, best tubeless brew=best home brew.
You wouldn't go to a home brew thread and review budweiser.. Or wait, maybe you would, and the negative rep the fool that called you on it.
Cheers.


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

ElwoodT said:


> I have read the entirety of the thread and have been following it far longer than I've been a member here.
> I think I can say conclusively, that in this context, best tubeless brew=best home brew.
> You wouldn't go to a home brew thread and review budweiser.. Or wait, maybe you would, and the negative rep the fool that called you on it.
> Cheers.


Ooohh......negative rep from an internet Nazi. How on earth will my life go on! The horror.....The horror!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I own a device that gives me access to all of man's knowledge. I use it to look at funny pictures and argue with strangers.

I have yet to put anyone on ignore, but sometimes I'm tempted.

"As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story."


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

wadester said:


> I own a device that gives me access to all of man's knowledge. I use it to look at funny pictures and argue with strangers.
> 
> I have yet to put anyone on ignore, but sometimes I'm tempted.
> 
> "As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story."


It just cracks me up when people get so butt hurt about 1 or 2 posts that don't meet the guide lines or confines of their little world. It's just a forum about f)u)c)k)i)n)g tire sealant, nobody is solving world hunger here.

These guys are almost as bad as some New York artists, or something. "Who let these simpleton sealant heathens into our "Sealant Connoisseur" party anyway"...."We need to remind the butler to do a more thorough job of checking the guest list!"


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## MudInMyEars (Apr 4, 2005)

The information to noise ratio in this long running thread has been very high. I have been reading this thread since it started and I appreciate the results you have shared. To me it is worth wading through the occasional noise.

Thuren I am interested to hear of your results after a month. 

-mud


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## Shrek1 (Aug 1, 2013)

wadester said:


> I own a device that gives me access to all of man's knowledge. I use it to look at funny pictures and argue with strangers.
> 
> I have yet to put anyone on ignore, but sometimes I'm tempted.
> 
> "As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story."


+1 
for the guy who has posted more useful info than possibly any other!


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## dirtbyte (Aug 23, 2011)

MudInMyEars said:


> The information to noise ratio in this long running thread has been very high. I have been reading this thread since it started and I appreciate the results you have shared. To me it is worth wading through the occasional noise.
> 
> Thuren I am interested to hear of your results after a month.
> 
> -mud


Nevermind. Was just posting up my experience. I will take my info elsewhere. Carry on home brewers. Geeze uptight group over here. If brewing my own sealant makes me this uptight, I will stick to off the shelf.


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## albertdc (Mar 2, 2007)

I've been lurking, watching this thread for a long time. I have PG and latex on order and should make my first batch next weekend.

Question: the recipes you all are posting add up to 80oz or so. We use 5-6 oz per tire, so that's over 10 tires worth of sealant. Does it stay "fresh" in a storage container for 6 months or so? Just a glass jar with lid? Has anyone tried zip loc bags in order to squeeze the extra air out (does that make a difference)? 

Is it feasible to make smaller batches? 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

It keeps for a long time in a sealed jar. You can make a smaller batch by cutting re recipe in half or quarters. Easier to make a standard batch and keep it in a sealed jar than to mix up several batches.


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

albertdc said:


> I've been lurking, watching this thread for a long time. I have PG and latex on order and should make my first batch next weekend.
> 
> Question: the recipes you all are posting add up to 80oz or so. We use 5-6 oz per tire, so that's over 10 tires worth of sealant. Does it stay "fresh" in a storage container for 6 months or so? Just a glass jar with lid? Has anyone tried zip loc bags in order to squeeze the extra air out (does that make a difference)?
> 
> ...


You can make smaller batches, I keep mine in a gallon jug, with a good tight cap, in the house covered with a old towel to keep it out of sunlight. I do not think anybody had any issues with similar storage methods.


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## albertdc (Mar 2, 2007)

Thanks for the fast responses.
I'll probably try a half-batch for my first one in case I mess it up or more breakthroughs are made soon! 

Thanks and kudos to all the hard work that has gone into this thread! 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

mtbdennis said:


> Nevermind. Was just posting up my experience. I will take my info elsewhere. Carry on home brewers. Geeze uptight group over here. If brewing my own sealant makes me this uptight, I will stick to off the shelf.


The drive behind all the "home brewing", was the lack of a superior, cost effective off-the-shelf product - or that is what I thought anyway.

If a good off-the-self product comes along I think it is pertinent to the thread.

Also, I come here for all my sealant info and tips. Not like there is a another info-rich sealant thread. Perhaps this newer sealant mentioned here will prompt other home-brew posters here to dissect this newer sealant and take some tips and apply it to home-brew.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

albertdc said:


> Is it feasible to make smaller batches?


Absolutely! But, as said above - it does keep well in a sealed container. I keep mine in a rubbermaid "mixermate" pitcher. And I find that the latex keeps better mixed up than think in the jar. OTOH, a buddy of mine got seriously carried away and bought a gallon of latex mold builder, which came in a steel paint can. I know it was still good/no skin on top when opened even halfway down the can.

If you want to make small batches (which would be a good way to stay abreast of the latest innovations) store your latex in a well sealed glass or steel container with minimal excess space. I have seen plastic discs used to lay on top of paint/etc to reduce "skinning".


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

wadester said:


> I own a device that gives me access to all of man's knowledge. I use it to look at funny pictures and argue with strangers.


Yes, and you have a device that gives you access to all of man's knowledge.

And you use it to create a world and community where you have a grandiose, deluded sense of your own self importance.

I leave you now to lead over your entire world of sealant subjects, where perhaps someday, you might go from sealant king to perhaps sealant God.

And still nobody will really give S)H)I)T. ......


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## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

Steve-S said:


> Xantham gum solutions are different. They shear-thin, but then immediately regain their original viscosity. This is considered pseudoplastic, but not thixotropic.
> See http://www.jungbunzlauer.com/media/uploads/pdf/Xanthan_Gum/Xanthan_Gum_2006.pdf
> "Xanthan gum solutions are highly pseudoplastic but not thixotropic, i.e.
> even after high shear rates the initial viscosity is rebuilt instantaneously."


Thanks Steve. Veeeery interesting. Hope to get this forum back on track! I will check this info tonight - I haven't done much Fluid Mechanics for some time...

This information gives us a very good clue of the consistency: If there is xantham gum in the sealant, then it will dominate the flow [rheological properties] in a spinning tyre. The shear rate dominates the viscosity [more than other similar products - figure2]. If you want to get a "feeling" of the fluidity/viscosity of your sealant, you will have to shake the sealant in the mixing/ storing jar to the same degree as the shaking in a spinning tyre (if you have xantham gum in it). When you stop shaking the jar, the viscosity changes immediately.

Xantham gum is less temperature sensitive compared to other products (figure 3). Good news for all of us, from alpine (where is Eurotrash ?...) to warm desert conditions. We might find that xantham gum could provide us an even basis for testing our OSS/WSS across the globe. Or is this a too technical argument?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Well, I sure wish I knew where my recipe is going to sh|t.

Got his sidewall gash this morning:










Pulled the tire off to boot it and throw in a tube and found this lovely monster. It's about 4" long.










That's after about two weeks in the tire. WtF?

I think we've determined that too much xantham gum is bad. Possible culprit as I've got more than most (2 tsp) in my current batch.

I use RO water out of my sink NOT distilled water. Maybe? Dunno the difference between RO and distilled.

My ammonia is from Target and yellow. Not pure. Maybe a culprit?

Thoughts?

The good news is the Dane hair is doing a great job. At the exact same time I got the slit I got a nasty puncture, almost a slit, on my back tire that took a while to seal. Once it did I could see the Dane hair sticking out of it. 

Mike


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

big0mike said:


> Well, I sure wish I knew where my recipe is going to sh|t.
> 
> Got his sidewall gash this morning:
> 
> ...


I have used Tap water in the past with less boogering than that! Your water is probably fine. Also yellow ammonia doesnt seem to be a problem for me either.

Nice job with the dane hair. Probably close to minifibers in slime.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

You know, it just dawned on me that I started using Rubber Crumb AND Xantham Gum in the same batch. That's the recipe that gave me so much boogering. Starting to wonder if the Xantham Gum is causing the boogering and not anything else.

Looks like a trip to Michael's for some more latex is in order. Even though I have a bit this last batch still I'm gonna make a batch with the Rubber Crumb and NO Xantham Gum. Maybe Stan found out himself that anything that holds the ingredients in suspension was likely to cause premature boogering? Guess I'll find out.

I actually just got another small container for my brew so I could mix up the latex, water, pg & ammonia and then play around with the chunkulators in several different batches.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> Well, I sure wish I knew where my recipe is going to sh|t.
> 
> I think we've determined that too much xantham gum is bad. Possible culprit as I've got more than most (2 tsp) in my current batch.
> 
> ...


Water-wise, I know that the Deinonized (DI or ultrapure) water process uses RO - but softens first, then runs thru a ion absorption resin bed last which says there is still something left. Looking at the net, I found this article: deionized-water-vs-distilled-water which says "DI water is as pure as distilled water or even purer;
Reverse osmosis water vs distilled water - RO water is more saturated with salts and oxygen then the distilled water and DI water" But that is for lab-grade water. I bet that RO is as good as distilled for our purposes.

If your ammonia is yellow, it's got something in it - at least coloring and maybe "lemon freshness". The stuff I have is as clear as water, so I would change that. As a note, even the stuff I have has some additives and I'm looking for "just DI water and ammonia".

This last batch was xanthan and rubber crumb? And I agree that fibers are good chunks, whether dog hair, dryer lint or Slime.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I'll have to search for some clear ammonia just to eliminate that as a possibility. Not actually sure where to look, though._ (Just found it at a Walgreens right by my house.)_

The last batch was coarse modeler's turf & xantham gum. I went that route because my rubber crumb & xantham gum (the version before that) kept boogering badly.

Didn't you try a batch with rubber crumb? How'd that turn out for you? Can't remember if you used xantham gum.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> I'll have to search for some clear ammonia just to eliminate that as a possibility. Not actually sure where to look, though._ (Just found it at a Walgreens right by my house.)_
> 
> The last batch was coarse modeler's turf & xantham gum. I went that route because my rubber crumb & xantham gum (the version before that) kept boogering badly.
> 
> Didn't you try a batch with rubber crumb? How'd that turn out for you? Can't remember if you used xantham gum.


My last batch used slime and rubber crumb - and a hefty dose of clear ammonia. So far, so good. But sometimes it takes a bad thing like your sidewall damage to get fast data. I won't know anything until something fails.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> My last batch used slime and rubber crumb - and a hefty dose of clear ammonia. So far, so good. But sometimes it takes a bad thing like your sidewall damage to get fast data. I won't know anything until something fails.


Define "hefty dose" 

I've been using 2 tbsp which I think was something of a "norm." More than that?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Ha! Had to look it up:best-tubeless-brew post #2419

16 oz latex
16 oz slime tubeless
16 oz propylene glycol
8 oz clear ammonia
16 oz distilled water
8 oz rubber crumb
handful of dryer lint

My clear ammonia is Great Value (upc 8113114475), MSDS says "7-13% by weight ammonia hydroxide", so probably 10%ish, but also water and "chelating agent", listed as sodium dodecylbenzenesulfonate (.1-1%) and EDTA (.1-1%). As a note, I had generically looked it up and thought it was 2.5% ammonia - which is why I put in as much as I did. C'est la vie.

I generically looked up Walgreen clear ammonia, and it's water/ammonia hydroxide/surfactant (soap)


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

So are you saying that you put in 8oz ammonia thinking it was 2.5% which would roughly equal 2oz of 10%?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> So are you saying that you put in 8oz ammonia thinking it was 2.5% which would roughly equal 2oz of 10%?


Yes.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Well, I found the clear "Nice" ammonia at Walgreens. It doesn't list ingredients so I don't know what % it is. Michael's by my house was out of Mold Builder so I have to visit another store tomorrow morning that is supposed to be holding a can for me.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> Well, I found the clear "Nice" ammonia at Walgreens. It doesn't list ingredients so I don't know what % it is. Michael's by my house was out of Mold Builder so I have to visit another store tomorrow morning that is supposed to be holding a can for me.


Yeah, mine has "ingredients" on the label - and it took some persistence to find wally world msds stash. Had to go around the barn to get there. Looking for walgreens led me back to the "generic" msds that listed 2-3%. Tell me the actual mfg from the label and UPC#. Maybe I can find it.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

You don't need to worry about too much ammonia, I once used 16 oz. instead of PG. The only problem was that it didn't seal as quickly because the tire carcass sort of repelled the sealant mix. When I realized what had happened, I added 16 oz of PG, which made the sealant act very quickly. The sealant performed as well or better than any variation I have used to date. The final mix was 16 ozs. each of latex, slime, and PG, 32 ozs. water, plus the inadvertant 16 oz of ammonia. The 96 oz. batch lasted one whole season at the bike house, lots of happy users. So don't worry about too much ammonia. :thumbsup:


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> Yeah, mine has "ingredients" on the label - and it took some persistence to find wally world msds stash. Had to go around the barn to get there. Looking for walgreens led me back to the "generic" msds that listed 2-3%. Tell me the actual mfg from the label and UPC#. Maybe I can find it.


Have to wait 'til I get home...



bsieb said:


> You don't need to worry about too much ammonia, I once used 16 oz. instead of PG. The only problem was that it didn't seal as quickly because the tire carcass sort of repelled the sealant mix. When I realized what had happened, I added 16 oz of PG, which made the sealant act very quickly. The sealant performed as well or better than any variation I have used to date. The final mix was 16 ozs. each of latex, slime, and PG, 32 ozs. water, plus the inadvertant 16 oz of ammonia. The 96 oz. batch lasted one whole season at the bike house, lots of happy users. So don't worry about too much ammonia. :thumbsup:


Good to know that a LOT of ammonia won't ruin it.

What I got is the same as the yellow stuff I have, just no yellow. So, maybe I'll just double my dose to 4oz and see how that works.

Not terribly concerned with longevity for this test. Trying to confirm or eliminate xantham gum and/or rubber crumb as my boogering culprit. I thought it was the rubber crumb but this last batch boogered as much as the previous and it had xantham gum but no rubber crumb. We'll see...


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm using 2oz of 10% Ammonia, in my batch which uses 16oz of Latex, and everything has been working awesome. Waiting a few more weeks to pop some tires open for inspection plus pictures.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

When I was using Silica Gel and Xantham gum, I was getting boogering. I eliminated the Silica Gel and got very long lasting sealant that took a little longer to seal punctures, but I mostly get thorns and it sealed them good enough for me. Now I have eliminated Xantham gum and am going to try corn meal. I think the xantham gum was a bad idea and it makes chunkulators tend to form boogers. If you want to go without chunkulators, xantham gum seems to have no ill effects.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> If you want to go without chunkulators, xantham gum seems to have no ill effects.


Interesting... chunks + xantham = boogers / no chunks + xantham = no boogers. Hopefully, that theory holds up with this next batch of rubber crumb.


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## h82crash (Dec 24, 2009)

wadester said:


> 16 oz latex
> 16 oz slime tubeless
> 16 oz propylene glycol
> 8 oz clear ammonia
> ...


Why were we using Slime Pro Tubeless? I thought that was a tubeless sealant all by itself with latex in it. I use regular automotive slime in my mix, $9 / 24oz or $24 / a gallon at Wally World. I agree its fun to come up with alternative, root chemical, ingredients for the brew but I find the Slime (regular) is cheap enough and works, and not worth the effort.

I know, I know,..its not the destination, its the journey.


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

h82crash said:


> Why were we using Slime Pro Tubeless? I thought that was a tubeless sealant all by itself with latex in it. I use regular automotive slime in my mix, $9 / 24oz or $24 / a gallon at Wally World. I agree its fun to come up with alternative, root chemical, ingredients for the brew but I find the Slime (regular) is cheap enough and works, and not worth the effort.
> 
> I know, I know,..its not the destination, its the journey.


Don't see Pro in his slime description? Wally world ATV slime is tubeless, bicycle slime=tubes.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

h82crash said:


> Why were we using Slime Pro Tubeless? I thought that was a tubeless sealant all by itself with latex in it. I use regular automotive slime in my mix, $9 / 24oz or $24 / a gallon at Wally World. I agree its fun to come up with alternative, root chemical, ingredients for the brew but I find the Slime (regular) is cheap enough and works, and not worth the effort.





Fred Smedley said:


> Don't see Pro in his slime description? Wally world ATV slime is tubeless, bicycle slime=tubes.


Yeah, what he said. Slime.com says:
Plain Slime (now Tube Slime)= fibers. 
Tubeless Slime(now Tire Slime)=fibers&rubber crumb. 
Pro Tubeless Slime (Slimepro Tubeless)=latex&fibers.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

So I had an unexpected problem when I tried to mix up another batch of OSS last night.... I mixed:

16 oz food grade PG
16 oz of Ozarka brand distilled water
4 TBSP of clear Walmart 2.5% ammonia

in an old aluminum camping pot I have. I had my drill w/ paint mixer at the ready, and as I started to pour in my latex mold builder and stir with the drill, the latex immediately coagulated into a big blob of NO BUENO.

I still had some latex, so I mixed a smaller batch, using the exact same ingredients, by putting:

6oz water
4oz PG
approx 1/2 a tsp of ammonia

into the plastic container the latex came in....shook it up.... then added
4oz latex
closed it up and shook it vigorously again.

and it came out like the watery, frothy, milky concoction I expected.

Is it possible that stirring too vigorously with the drill whips it like mayonnaise and hardens the latex? Also, I may not have stirred all the liquid ingredients adequately before adding the latex, so could that have contributed?

I mention the container being aluminum for full disclosure, but the previous batch I made was mixed in this container too, and I didn't have this problem. That last batch was EuroTrash's recipe that starts with smaller qty of PG and xantham gum being mixed, but I decided to skip the xantham gum this time.

Any suggestions?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I've always mixed in an empty aluminum paint can and always use a paint mixer.

I've always mixed half the water with PG and in another container the other half of the water with ammonia.

Add the Mold Builder to the water/PG then add the water/ammonia to it all.

Doesn't help you but I don't see yours as much different than mine. And, in fact, I'd planned on doing exactly what you did (all the water, PG, and ammonia together then mix in the latex). Less steps but problems?

One of our scientists will surely chime in...


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

Thanks Mike. I'm befuddled.... didn't seem like anything important had changed, but I was late for dinner and in a hurry, so I may not have blended the H2O, PG, and ammonia fully before trying to stir in the latex.... that or over-whipping with the drill are the only things I can imagine causing the problem, because the container and all these ingredients have been used before. It's sad to watch 10oz of fresh latex go BOOOOIIIING... Egg Drop Soup is not what I was going for.


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## h82crash (Dec 24, 2009)

wadester said:


> Yeah, what he said. Slime.com says:
> Plain Slime (now Tube Slime)= fibers.
> Tubeless Slime(now Tire Slime)=fibers&rubber crumb.
> Pro Tubeless Slime (Slimepro Tubeless)=latex&fibers.


Sorry, I guess I'm all screwed up. I thought tubeless meant Pro. I've been using the "tubeless" Tire Sime in tubes for years. Lucky they didn't self-destruct on me.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

h82crash said:


> I've been using the "tubeless" Tire Sime in tubes for years. Lucky they didn't self-destruct on me.


But that's the beauty of it all - nothing wrong with doing that. It's like our mixes here, different levels of chunkulation. They've got Lite, Regular, and Extra Sticky!


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I know what happened on the mix. When you mix the PG and water, the reaction is exothermic (generates heat). You can feel the heat if you put your hand on the container. It is not a lot, but definitely there is heating. I had the exact thing happen one time when I was in a hurry and more or less put everything together real fast. When you mix the PG and water, you have to thoroughly stir and let it set a little while you are mixing the latex, other water, and ammonia. My theory is that the local exothermic reaction between the water and PG causes the latex to harden and coagulate in various locations in the mix and that causes further coagulation (kind of a cascade of coagulation).

Because of this, I started mixing my PG and water in a container I could seal and agitate after initially mixing it thoroughly. If you just throw it in seal it and shake it, it might cause too much pressure rise due to the exothermic reaction so I always mix it, let the initial heat be generated and then seal and shake to ensure total mixing before combining it with my latex.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> I know what happened on the mix. When you mix the PG and water, the reaction is exothermic (generates heat). You can feel the heat if you put your hand on the container. It is not a lot, but definitely there is heating. I had the exact thing happen one time when I was in a hurry and more or less put everything together real fast. When you mix the PG and water, you have to thoroughly stir and let it set a little while you are mixing the latex, other water, and ammonia. My theory is that the local exothermic reaction between the water and PG causes the latex to harden and coagulate in various locations in the mix and that causes further coagulation (kind of a cascade of coagulation).
> 
> Because of this, I started mixing my PG and water in a container I could seal and agitate after initially mixing it thoroughly. If you just throw it in seal it and shake it, it might cause too much pressure rise due to the exothermic reaction so I always mix it, let the initial heat be generated and then seal and shake to ensure total mixing before combining it with my latex.


So, is it safe to mix all your PG, water, and ammonia in one jar. Stir it. Let the heat dissipate. Shake/Stir. Then add latex?

I never understood why people mixed a little water & PG and then a little water & ammonia in separate containers but always followed the example so I didn't have any issues like bacon did...


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have found that you need to mix the water and pg and you also need to mix some of the water with the latex and ammonia, then combine those 2 mixtures and shake. I think the PG also wants to react with the latex in an exothermic way, but by combining it with the water first and by mixing the latex with water first, it seems to kill any reaction between the pg and the latex.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

On further thought, I want to propose a 2nd theory for post #2705. It is possible that without the water that the PG aggressively turns the latex to a solid. In other words, instead of there being local hot spots when you put the latex in a less than completely mixed batch of PG/water that wherever there is free PG in the mix it immediately combines with any latex that comes into contact with it. Which of these it is could be determined by putting one drop of PG into one drop of latex and if it immediately hardens, we will have our answer.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> I have found that you need to mix the water and pg and you also need to mix some of the water with the latex and ammonia, then combine those 2 mixtures and shake. I think the PG also wants to react with the latex in an exothermic way, but by combining it with the water first and by mixing the latex with water first, it seems to kill any reaction between the pg and the latex.


OK, so the secret direction is:

Mix One: water & PG

Mix Two: water & latex & ammonia

Then mix those two together.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

10-4.


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## albertdc (Mar 2, 2007)

My PG is delayed at least another week. I need to make (my first home brew) batch tomorrow. I have RV antifreeze, which I see was used in the past asking with slime. Can I use the AF essentially as a substitute for PG+ water? 
Ie:

Mold builder latex - 250ml
Corn meal - 2 tbsp
Ammonia - 50ml 5% solution
Top off to 1 liter with AF

I would actually scale that down so I don't risk wasting too much latex. Does that sound reasonable or bound to fail?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

albertdc said:


> My PG is delayed at least another week. I need to make (my first home brew) batch tomorrow. I have RV antifreeze, which I see was used in the past asking with slime. Can I use the AF essentially as a substitute for PG+ water?


As you noted that's what we did in the past so it should work just fine :thumbsup:


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I always mix thin to thick in a clear oj jug, just shake between ingredients. Never had any problems. I think mixing with a drill is way overkill.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

THanks yourdaguy! Makes sense based on my observations. I'll do that test and post.


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## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> On further thought, I want to propose a 2nd theory for post #2705. It is possible that without the water that the PG aggressively turns the latex to a solid. In other words, instead of there being local hot spots when you put the latex in a less than completely mixed batch of PG/water that wherever there is free PG in the mix it immediately combines with any latex that comes into contact with it. Which of these it is could be determined by putting one drop of PG into one drop of latex and if it immediately hardens, we will have our answer.


I think you might be on to something here. In post #2453 I inadvertently made a ginormous booger when I added PG to a tub of latex on my first home-brew attempt.


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## Warura (Oct 21, 2013)

Hello, just finished reading all this thread. After like a week. I spent almost all that time looking for latex (in any form). Sad for me I am stuck living in Chihuahua mexico, very hard to get hold on almost anything. Today I finally found a place where they sell liquid latex, and made a batch (using 1-1-1 formula latex-slime-antifreeze) and added a little elmer glue (what the heck). So far, tire seated ok, been giving a shake around and left it on both sides an hour, no apparent leaks and will take a spin tomorrow. Thanks for all this wonderful info, its really priceless in these places where mtb is in its early stages and the few LBS have little to nothing in stock. Just wanted to add that the latex I got is about 100 pesos ( 8dll) 1liter (33oz) and is very high quality product, industrial grade (so says the label) and playing around with it, seems good quality. I am using Bontrager 29-1 with inferno 25 rim, mounted almost instantly.


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## Warura (Oct 21, 2013)

Dont recall anyone using corn starch (not corn meal). Corn starch will make any sauce in cooking more dense and sticky. My guess this will help to make the mixture cover all the inner tire, kind of a gel, and be ready to seal a puncture... Will experiment with this and other ideas, now that I can get latex!


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> On further thought, I want to propose a 2nd theory for post #2705. It is possible that without the water that the PG aggressively turns the latex to a solid. In other words, instead of there being local hot spots when you put the latex in a less than completely mixed batch of PG/water that wherever there is free PG in the mix it immediately combines with any latex that comes into contact with it. Which of these it is could be determined by putting one drop of PG into one drop of latex and if it immediately hardens, we will have our answer.


OK, I can confirm yourdaguy's theory that the latex will instantly harden if it contacts free PG. I put a dollop of mold builder in a bowl and dripped a little pg on it and BAM, instant booger.








Whether its due to the just-mixed water/PG having an active reaction still taking place, or simply because they were not fully blended and the latex was encountering free PG, it's clear that mixing order and a rest period for the PG/water mix are critical. 
This explains why an earlier WSS batch went instantly bad when I switched from pre-mixed antifreeze to PG and water mixed on the spot.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I am fairly certain it is free PG that instantly somehow binds to the latex and hardens it.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Wow. I recall the first time I tried PG antifreeze I got the same results. I tested by putting a scoop of latex in jar with a scoop of PG antifreeze. When I tried to shake, I just had a rubber ball bouncing! From chemist discussion, I wrote it off to the antifreeze additive package - but this is the pure stuff. 

Hmm. I mix thick - thin these days, latex then slime then PG then water/ammonia. Mix well at each addition. Slime uses premix water/PG as it's carrier. It looks like the premixed PG is ok, and that disperses the latex well enough to prevent reaction with the straight PG.

I am thinking that it would be a very good idea to premix water/ammonia/PG next time.


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## Warura (Oct 21, 2013)

Well, the corn starch did not work, actually it almost instantly turns solid the latex. On the other hand, if you could carry some corn starch and you get a nasty puncture, and sealant was not cutting it, you could put some corn starch on the puncture and an instant seal should be made. Maybe as an emergency thing.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Wadester, I would guess that the slime is taking up the receptors in the latex that would otherwise aggressively bond with the PG. Probably the best method is to mix some of the water with the latex and some with the PG as I do in my recipe or in your case mix the water and PG together before adding to the latex-slime mix.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I wonder what the relationship is between the ammonia and the PG. I don't have any latex on hand to experiment with (135 mi. drive), but I wonder if mixing ammonia with the PG will affect the way PG instantly coagulates the latex.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> Hmm. I mix thick - thin these days, latex then slime then PG then water/ammonia. Mix well at each addition. Slime uses premix water/PG as it's carrier. It looks like the premixed PG is ok, and that disperses the latex well enough to prevent reaction with the straight PG.
> 
> I am thinking that it would be a very good idea to premix water/ammonia/PG next time.


Sounds like adding the latex should be last only to chunks...


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

thuren said:


> 36oz distilled water
> 28oz 98% Propylene Glycol
> 2oz 10% Ammonia
> 16oz Liquid Latex
> 2.5 Stan's 2oz scooper of fine Cornmeal


Thuren. Long time lurker of this thread. You seem to be following what is closest to stans pdf of ingredients.

What brand of Liquid Latex are you using?
Where did you get your fine Cornmeal/what brand?

All.
Can I use EG instead of PG if I follow Thurens guide here? I have like RV antifreeze that I think is EG.

My overall goal is to imitate stans as much as possible. Stans works great so far for me, the only set back of stans is the price tag. When you switch tires based on conditions as much as I do it gets kind of pricey. Thanks.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I think RV antifreeze is PG. They feed PG to cows and EG kills dogs so I think PG would be what they put in drinking systems in motorhomes.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

combfilter said:


> Thuren. Long time lurker of this thread. You seem to be following what is closest to stans pdf of ingredients.
> 
> What brand of Liquid Latex are you using?
> Where did you get your fine Cornmeal/what brand?
> ...


RV antifreeze? Look up the MSDS, it will tell you the glycol. Or just look at the label - if it is poison, it's EG - nontoxic is PG. That said, it don't matter for these recipes - and you probably don't want to drink either version. But critters can be poisoned by the sweet tasting ethylene glycol.

The latex that most of us use is made for making art molds. Mold builder, mold maker, for molding, etc. I googled "latex mold" and got a bunch of different brands. I use "Castin' Craft" because I can buy it off the shelf locally.

I recall the "best" cornmeal was P.A.N. Harina Blanca Pre-cooked White

Our overall goal is to improve and exceed Stan's (sealant Zero), but good luck with whatever. If you're swapping out tires/making a mess/throwing money on the floor - have you considered building up another wheelset? Much easier to swap wheels than to swap tubeless/sealant tires.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> If you're swapping out tires/making a mess/throwing money on the floor - have you considered building up another wheelset? Much easier to swap wheels than to swap tubeless/sealant tires.


But we are trying to save money in here...


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## Space Ranger (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm sure this is going to get lost in a matter of minutes due to the posting and traffic in this thread, but here's a pic of a collection of the WSS Slime-based homebrew sealent and a different Slime-free recipe I've been using.

I got tired of the coral chunks so I dropped the Slime and started using shuffleboard powder as a plugging material. The 5 little pebbles are all about the size of a pea. I've noticed that this recipe is also MUCH easier to clean out than most of what's been posted here. My only complaint is that when airing up tires, the little crystals sometimes get into the valve core so it doesn't close as soon as the chuck is off so I have to screw the little stem nut down nd it's all good. I usually mix up something like this - 

1pt mold builder
2pt AF
2-3pt h2o depending on how thin you want the mix
1/2-3/4pt shuffleboard powder

If you try SB wax, be sure to get the high-end #1 moisture proof powder that does not have walnut shell as part of the mix. It's only $7 for a 1lb can that is enough for probably 6-8 batches.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

combfilter said:


> Thuren. Long time lurker of this thread. You seem to be following what is closest to stans pdf of ingredients.
> 
> What brand of Liquid Latex are you using?
> Where did you get your fine Cornmeal/what brand?
> ...


I am, REALLY happy, with the performance where I am at, with help from this thread. So much good info, I just picked away at the whats here, and tried to IMPROVE on Stan's like everyone else. Again. MAN this combo is working good.

That said, I feel like I need to give it a little more time, as something I really wanted to try and pull off, was less boogering, and less skin inside the tire, but time is needed to verify expectations.

I am using the Mold builder Latex from Michaels. I have seen the same stuff in larger qty online.

I buy a lot of stuff from Mcmaster for my business, so I ordered the PG from there.... McMaster-Carr

Cornmeal I used is shown below. Got it at Whole Foods. Organic so I figured less crap in it. It's blue corn, but I got it for the fine consistency. The completed mix did look blue-ish at first, but now after sitting for a few weeks the color almost washed out. Weird.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Quick note on the performance of the above^^^^

Might try a CX race this weekend, so 2 days ago I mounted some Maxxis Raze tires on my 30mm wide 29er rims. No sealant on the first try, to make sure they would seat. Dealing with the super small volume was new to me, but with the compressor I finally got them to pop over the bead seats. With no sealant, they were BLOWING air out, and with the small volume, would go FLAT in less than a minute. Added some sealant, blew them up, shook around for about a minute, and there was NO more sealant coming out. They still have totally rideable pressure 2 days later, and I have not even ridden the bike yet except for in my driveway. I was sure they would be flat a couple hours later, and did not expect them to be sealing almost perfectly still, 2 days later!


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## ecmeyer (Aug 5, 2013)

OK sealant gurus I have a question. I've been following this thread for a while and have amassed my PG, latex, ammonia, and DI water but here's the deal. I ride in Florida so thorns aren't really an issue I'm really only going tubeless for the lower pressure and avoiding pinch flats. So do you think it will be OK to skip the chunkalators? I really just need the sealant to seal up the sidewalls and bead. So should I skip it all together or add cornmeal any way? Thanks for the input!


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have not used chunkulators for over a year. I am going to put cornmeal in my next batch, but I was never happy with the previous chunkulators.


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## ecmeyer (Aug 5, 2013)

That's good to hear. Were you using a recipe that included slime or one of the pure ingredient ones? Also even though I have yet to experience a thorn puncture it would be nice to have the peace of mind. Have you had any punctures with your current recipe and if so how did it handle it? Thanks for your help.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I am using latex, PG, RO water, ammonia, and was using a small amount of xantham gum but am dropping that. Thorns took longer to seal, but they all sealed, I never had to walk back. Without the chunkulators, my mix lasted a long time and when it did finally dry out, there was a thin coating on the inside of the tire.


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## ecmeyer (Aug 5, 2013)

Just out of curiosity why are you dropping the xantham gum? I was on the fence about whether or not to use it in my batch. It seems most people having issues with it are using chunkalators but if I recall it was originally added to keep the chunkalators in suspension so I wasn't quite sure if I needed it for my intended use.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Partly because I am also going back to chunkulators (corn) and partly because I don't think it is doing anything. Look at it this way- if you use chunkulators, then you don't want it because it caused boogers. If you don't use chunkulators then it serves no purpose since it's reason for being in the mix is to suspend the chunkulators better. It was an experimental dead end.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> Look at it this way- if you use chunkulators, then you don't want it because it caused boogers. If you don't use chunkulators then it serves no purpose since it's reason for being in the mix is to suspend the chunkulators better. It was an experimental dead end.


Very good evaluation. Add xanthan gum to glitter and soap as "nice try, but no" list.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Space Ranger said:


> I'm sure this is going to get lost in a matter of minutes due to the posting and traffic in this thread, but here's a pic of a collection of the WSS Slime-based homebrew sealent and a different Slime-free recipe I've been using.










Totally awesome homebrew booger art.


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

thuren said:


> That said, I feel like I need to give it a little more time, as something I really wanted to try and pull off, was less boogering, and less skin inside the tire, but time is needed to verify expectations.


Actually the skin inside is a good thing I think. It seems to be what stop leaks thru the fibers of the tires that might not be as TLR / Tubeless as most. For example, if i take a racing ralph or specialized 2bliss tire off and it has that skin. I can remount it with maybe 1/2 of the stans I normally do and still hear enough in there to slosh around and still seal up a puncture. It will even hold air for a few hours if i mount the tire that has skin on the inside with 0 stans. At least for me.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

combfilter said:


> Actually the skin inside is a good thing I think. It seems to be what stop leaks thru the fibers of the tires that might not be as TLR / Tubeless as most. For example, if i take a racing ralph or specialized 2bliss tire off and it has that skin. I can remount it with maybe 1/2 of the stans I normally do and still hear enough in there to slosh around and still seal up a puncture.


That's my theory and has been my experience as well. There's always been a film on the inside of the tire, especially with WSS, and if the inside is already coated then you don't need as much sealant to work 'cause none (little) of it is wasted coating the inside of the tire.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

It's been my observation, and I look inside my tires a lot, that the coating on the inside grows as the sealant loses moisture, there is little coating if the sealant is fresh.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

Yes. Same here. 
The Holy Grail, IMO, is a sealant that seals well, doesn't booger, quickly makes a THIN skin inside the casing, but remains liquid otherwise and lasts a long time.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't want a skin at all. Seems like a waste by adding weight, and preventing the mixed up brew from getting to where it needs to be. Plus, that skin is going to hold the chunks and lock them down where they are. Whats the point of that, if the chunks can't get to the point of tire failure? If I have a gash in a tire that needs sealant, I want ALL the sealant available, to that spot.

Another note. If you form a skin, you now wasted the latex, as it is not thrashing around the tire any more.

I never feel as secure as when the sealant is less than a week old. I want a sealant to stay moving in the tire, and look "fresh" like I just installed it, months later.


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## Shrek1 (Aug 1, 2013)

thuren said:


> I don't want a skin at all. Seems like a waste by adding weight, and preventing the mixed up brew from getting to where it needs to be. Plus, that skin is going to hold the chunks and lock them down where they are. Whats the point of that, if the chunks can't get to the point of tire failure? If I have a gash in a tire that needs sealant, I want ALL the sealant available, to that spot.
> 
> Another note. If you form a skin, you now wasted the latex, as it is not thrashing around the tire any more.
> 
> I never feel as secure as when the sealant is less than a week old. I want a sealant to stay moving in the tire, and look "fresh" like I just installed it, months later.


Goatheads are plentiful here(Front Range CO). I've removed tires that had dozens of thorns thru the tire and only a few will make it thru the pliable inner skin. My requirements are an inner skin 'and' some liquid.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Shrek1 said:


> Goatheads are plentiful here(Front Range CO). I've removed tires that had dozens of thorns thru the tire and only a few will make it thru the pliable inner skin. My requirements are an inner skin 'and' some liquid.


I'm curious to know what you feel the skin does with regards to goat-heads, that "all-liquid", would not do?


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## Shrek1 (Aug 1, 2013)

The majority of the thorns do not penetrate the 'skin' and do not release any pressure or sealant. YMMV


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Shrek1 said:


> The majority of the thorns do not penetrate the 'skin' and do not release any pressure or sealant. YMMV


Gotcha!

Just wondering why the skin being there makes for a more idea situation? Full liquid with no skin would seal the thorn instantly, too.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

thuren said:


> Gotcha!
> 
> Just wondering why the skin being there makes for a more idea situation? Full liquid with no skin would seal the thorn instantly, too.


Because standard or "tubeless ready" tires have a very porous casing, and lose air too fast, but we're all in love with their light weight and compliant ride. The best way to make them air tight while retaining those traits is a thin latex skin. 
Your desire to save weight and preserve sealant in liquid form aren't lost on me... I agree, I want that, plus a thin latex skin to hold air without the weight and loss of compliance that more butyl ( aka a UST tire) brings to the table. 
Thin latex tubes are a big reason why high end tubulars ride better than clinchers on the road...because the clinchers usually have a heavier, less compliant butyl tube in them.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I hope I just didn't waste two tubs of Mold Builder...



OSS version 1f said:


> 16 oz PG
> 26 oz RO water
> 32 oz latex
> 4 oz ammonia
> ...


I mixed all the liquids and let it sit. I could feel a little heat on the outside of the paint can. Never noticed it before.

Mixed in the latex and about sh|t 'cause it was no thicker than water.

Added a generous amount of Dane hair hoping it might thicken up a little. I knew it wouldn't but I hoped...

I just happened to have a second tub of latex I got 50% off with a coupon I received when I bought the first tub for 40% off  Added the second tub. Still no thicker than water.

Added ¼ cup rubber crumb, more Dane hair, another ¼ cup of rubber crumb. Still not much thicker than water. And, comparing my ingredients with many other's, mine is actually "thick".

If this is the "Holy Grail" consistency of Stan's it's no wonder some holes take forever to seal. There's not enough latex to work quickly enough.

I have absolutely no faith in this batch.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I would leave out the Dane hair because it is an unknown ingredient as far as purity and could be affecting your results. You could always add it again after you have developed a good recipe. With your current mix, add another 24 oz of PG and enough water to make 160 oz of mix. IMO a thickish mix is not desirable, it's better to be thin, like milk. If necessary, buy a small bottle of Stans so you have a known comparison.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

STans is pretty watery other than the corn meal. I think you are on the right track. The mixtures with xantham gum are always much thicker than other mixes. Like bsieb, I am thinking that thicker is not better.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

The Dane hair is just as "pure" as any dryer lint that's been used. That's where it comes from. The other option is the hair I shave off my balls and ass. Haven't tried that yet but I've got some saved and it's exceptionally pure 

I just mounted two new UST Nevegals. I don't know if it is the UST tire (first UST tire I've had) or the new tape job I did on the rims (non-UST Azonic Outlaws) but they sealed perfectly and easily with only a slight air bubble coming from one stem which sealed quickly.

As I was cleaning up I could see that it was latexing like it should but it's a very thin and weak layer of latex. I was able to wipe it off my containers, funnel, and mixers with little effort. With my old, thicker brew it was much thicker when solidified and, in my opinion, would be much more durable. As well as work quicker to seal. Judging by the the more effort required to remove the old batch from the rims and tires I think that's a solid statement. But, I'm no scientist.

I'm sure it will be moderately sufficient but when it's gone my next batch will not be this thin. I may just get another tub of latex to mix in.

I do suspect that the thinness is the reason some of you get such long life out of the sealant. I think there's a direct correlation of thickness > longevity. My old batch was good for a month or two before it boogered up. I didn't mind that life span since the sealant worked great but I needed to get rid of the boogers.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Hair has skin oil and colonies of little critters on it, and while I'm no chemist, I suspect that could affect the mix. It will be interesting to see how the thinner mix performs for you.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I am thinking the opposite bigOmike. I am no scientist either and want to admit right up front that you are just as likely as me to be on the right path. That said, the way latex works is that the ammonia evaporates very quickly because of the pressure gradient between the inside of the tire and the outside of the tire. My earlier sealants with Slime, latex, antifreeze, ammonia, and water (WSS) seemed to seal faster than my later batches with latex, PG, water, ammonia and xantham gum. While the xantham gum did a great job of thickening the mix, I think it might actually have slowed down the reaction of the latex/ammonia in sealing punctures. The thinner mixtures might actually promote faster evaporation of the ammonia at the puncture site. It is the evaporation of the ammonia that causes the latex to solidify and seal the puncture.

Irony: xamtham gum is 100% made from corn and I am taking all the xantham gum out of my recipe and replacing it with uncooked ground 100% corn>>>so my mix it going back to unprocessed food!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Update on my mix after ~1.5 months. Still lots of sloshing in the tires after plenty of riding. Zero weeping out of a tire casing (Specy Control) that weeped like crazy with WSS. I don't get many flats and we don't have "goat heads" here so can't comment on that, but I am v. happy with my mix. To refresh...my mix is:

1 part Mold Builder latex
2.3 parts DI water
2 parts PG (from Tractor Supply)
Kroger cornmeal

I mixed the water with the latex first, then added the PG and cornmeal per the old Stan's patent application.

Edit: My tires hold air as well as as with any other sealant I have used. Here is what I based my mix on:

Tubeless tire compound and a system and method for retrofitting non-tubeless tires - US Patent 7055569 Description


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> It will be interesting to see how the thinner mix performs for you.


I'll just be glad to confirm for myself that removing xantham gum solves the booger problem. The rear tire I just replaced only had two or three weeks and already had a golf ball sized booger in it. It did have plenty of fresh sealant sloshing around, too.



yourdaguy said:


> I am thinking the opposite bigOmike. I am no scientist either and want to admit right up front that you are just as likely as me to be on the right path. That said, the way latex works is that the ammonia evaporates very quickly because of the pressure gradient between the inside of the tire and the outside of the tire... The thinner mixtures might actually promote faster evaporation of the ammonia at the puncture site. It is the evaporation of the ammonia that causes the latex to solidify and seal the puncture.


Is this part of your theory or a fact? If it's fact then you may likely be on the righter path than me.

My gut (which is not as smart as my brain and my brain doesn't know sh|t about this stuff) tells me that the ammonia helps prevent the latex from solidifying but it's not the ammonia's evaporation that initiates the solidifying.

But, your theory makes just as much sense as mine. I just never thought of it that way until now...


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## albertdc (Mar 2, 2007)

TiGeo said:


> Update on my mix after ~1.5 months. Still lots of sloshing in the tires after plenty of riding. Zero weeping out of a tire casing (Specy Control) that weeped like crazy with WSS. I don't get many flats and we don't have "goat heads" here so can't comment on that, but I am v. happy with my mix. To refresh...my mix is:
> 
> 1 part Mold Builder latex
> 2.3 parts DI water
> ...


No ammonia?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

albertdc said:


> No ammonia?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2


Not beyond what already comes in the Mold Builder.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

big0mike said:


> I'll just be glad to confirm for myself that removing xantham gum solves the booger problem. The rear tire I just replaced only had two or three weeks and already had a golf ball sized booger in it. It did have plenty of fresh sealant sloshing around, too.
> 
> Is this part of your theory or a fact? If it's fact then you may likely be on the righter path than me.
> 
> ...


This is my theory. 
Otherwise, I fail to understand the mechanism by which sealant works. We know that the sealant works without chunkulators, but not as well so the only mechanism that I can think of by which the latex turns to a rubbery solid when it is exposed to a hole is that the ammonia gasses off when suddenly exposed to the lower pressure. I am familiar with 'cascade effect" . It is something that when a reaction starts, each reaction triggers more reactions, and they trigger even more reactions, etc. Various things can cause this for various reactions, such as a catalyst present, etc. I think that the pressure differential somehow causes the ammonia to gas off the latex in a rapid manner (cascade effect); because otherwise the ammonia and latex are very happy to remain locked together in the tire for months.

Other pieces of the puzzle: solidified latex seems to have no ammonia present. If you smell some dried out latex, it doesn't smell like ammonia. Ammonia has a high vapor pressure (it tends to gas off) this is again a nose test (I need to keep my nose out of stuff) you can small ammonia as soon as you open the bottle.

I was a business major so I have no formal science training except Physics 100 because you had to have 1 science class to graduate. At this point, I am wishing I took Chemistry 100 instead.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^So you figure boogers are caused by a lack of ammonia in the mix? I have never had a non-co2 related booger form, and only a couple of those in ~5 years with 3 sets of wheels. I only started adding ammonia in the last year or so. So I figure it has to be related to the chunkulater or some impurity that affects the ammonia/latex bond. I suspect whatever causes a skin to form causes boogers to form.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

bsieb said:


> ^So you figure boogers are caused by a lack of ammonia in the mix? I have never had a non-co2 related booger form, and only a couple of those in ~5 years with 3 sets of wheels. I only started adding ammonia in the last year or so. So I figure it has to be related to the chunkulater or some impurity that affects the ammonia/latex bond. I suspect whatever causes a skin to form causes boogers to form.


My understanting is that the latex remains a liquid with the ammonia; ammonia vaporizes easily and does so when exposed to air. You get a hole, the sealant escapes, the ammonia vaporizes, the latex solidifies in the hole. The chunks help give the latex something to "stick" to to plug larger holes. Am I missing something?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^So what causes boogers to form in your scenario?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

bsieb said:


> ^So you figure boogers are caused by a lack of ammonia in the mix? I have never had a non-co2 related booger form, and only a couple of those in ~5 years with 3 sets of wheels. I only started adding ammonia in the last year or so. So I figure it has to be related to the chunkulater or some impurity that affects the ammonia/latex bond. I suspect whatever causes a skin to form causes boogers to form.


I think that xantham gum certainly contributes to boogers. I think that other "impurities" can also cause boogers.


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

TiGeo said:


> Update on my mix after ~1.5 months. Still lots of sloshing in the tires after plenty of riding. Zero weeping out of a tire casing (Specy Control) that weeped like crazy with WSS. I don't get many flats and we don't have "goat heads" here so can't comment on that, but I am v. happy with my mix. To refresh...my mix is:
> 
> 1 part Mold Builder latex
> 2.3 parts DI water
> ...


To save a lot of people from reading 100+ pages of people guessing what works and what doesn't. TiGeo's post right here is 100% exactly what stans is. The ONLY thing in question is what kind of liquid latex stans uses. I don't imagine that they are buying stock piles of castin craft latex tubs and putting them in their batch  
So my only question is what kind or where does one find a cheaper source of liquid latex. I found this and was wondering if it would work. 
AeroMarine Products- Latex Mold Making Rubber

Anyways.. TiGeo's thing here is dead on a copy of stans: Matter of fact per his patent sheet he posted here's the amounts in stans:
Stans Sealant Recipe per patent:
6oz of liquid latex
14oz of water (doesn't even say distilled or RO, most filtered water should be fine)
12oz of pg
1/2oz of corn meal.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The tires aren't air tight and over time (several mos.) the ammonia and water slowly evaporate and the latex hardens forming boogers.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

It's like Wadester said...Stan's is sealant zero...it works and is the industry standard. This thread is about trying to improve it as it does have issues. The main one to me is longevity and obviously cost.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

TiGeo said:


> The tires aren't air tight and over time (several mos.) the ammonia and water slowly evaporate and the latex hardens forming boogers.


But it doesn't always form boogers. It mostly just dries into a smooth coating with evenly distributed chunks if not topped off from time to time. That's OSS with xanthan gum and silica grit, and WSS+ too.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Could be that if it sits for longer periods it gets boogers because the material all settles in the bottom of the tire...who knows...I guess I haven't had a big booger issue.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Vader1 (Sep 26, 2013)

This is just a random tire trick I wanted to share with you all. This may or may not be of any use but just take it for what it's worth. Back in the day I worked for a car dealer. Often I would repair flat tires. Every so often I would get a tire that was leaking around the bead, air was getting out from between the tire and rim. What I would do is break the tire bead off the rim and apply automatic transmission fluid (ATF) around the tire bead then seat the bead and fill up the tire. Now they bottle a product that is called "bead sealer" This would stop a leak every time. Trans fluid is made to slightly swell up rubber seals in automatic transmissions. It worked every time on a tire bead also. Not sure if this would be of any help to bike tire beads.


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## dustyduke22 (Aug 22, 2006)

Vader1 said:


> This is just a random tire trick I wanted to share with you all. This may or may not be of any use but just take it for what it's worth. Back in the day I worked for a car dealer. Often I would repair flat tires. Every so often I would get a tire that was leaking around the bead, air was getting out from between the tire and rim. What I would do is break the tire bead off the rim and apply automatic transmission fluid (ATF) around the tire bead then seat the bead and fill up the tire. Now they bottle a product that is called "bead sealer" This would stop a leak every time. Trans fluid is made to slightly swell up rubber seals in automatic transmissions. It worked every time on a tire bead also. Not sure if this would be of any help to bike tire beads.


I think you should be the first to try it


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Some thoughts - 

Ammonia isn't really what keeps the latex from coagulating, but the pH of ammonia is. This is why CO2 coagulates latex - it is acidic and changes the pH of the sealant.

The spraying punctures I've had sealed up too quickly for mere evaporation - I liked the shear stress concept, where the velocity thru the middle of the hole vs stopped at the edge would certainly cause a lot of shear in the sealant.

I think that the other chunks cause even more shear, by restricting the flow - kinda like the venturi effect. They also reinforce the latex plug once it gels.

I think adding ammonia does make the latex less viscous. My last batch was chunk-heavy, but as watery as any I ever made. Which is a good thing.

Most of the boogers I have found went along with a hefty thorn. I've even found the booger nailed to the tire by the thorn! I know the booger actually grew on the thorn in those cases, and I bet that the obstruction in the middle of the sealant's path causes shear as it cuts thru the sealant as you change speed.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Vader1 said:


> This is just a random tire trick I wanted to share with you all. This may or may not be of any use but just take it for what it's worth. Back in the day I worked for a car dealer. Often I would repair flat tires. Every so often I would get a tire that was leaking around the bead, air was getting out from between the tire and rim. What I would do is break the tire bead off the rim and apply automatic transmission fluid (ATF) around the tire bead then seat the bead and fill up the tire. Now they bottle a product that is called "bead sealer" This would stop a leak every time. Trans fluid is made to slightly swell up rubber seals in automatic transmissions. It worked every time on a tire bead also. Not sure if this would be of any help to bike tire beads.


I am not sure this is true. ATF is basically hydraulic fluid with an additive package which is mostly for corrosion and to absorb moisture. It looks to me like the additive package would not want to swell rubber since there are many rubber seals within a transmission as well as numerous rubber o-rings, etc. There have been problems with alloy wheels having porosity leaks and GM even had some that were so bad they replaced them. I am thinking that the leaks were due to the porosity of the rim and that the ATF got into all the little crevasses and since it doesn't evaporate it was trapped, thereby sealing the leaks.

If you are not understanding this, the tire bead seats on the rim. If the rim has many microscopic channels in it the rubber does not conform to the very tiny channels. Air molecules are very small and can leak out (they even pass through a rubber inner-tube). The ATF would get in the little microscopic channels and "gum them up" so to speak. Their molecules are larger than air molecules (did you ever see ATF pass through an inner tube?) and because they are blocking the passages the air stays in. And because ATF does not evaporate, it stays in the microscopic channels.


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

I agree that boogers may form around a thorn or at the location of a sealed puncture. Most of the boogers I've seen in my tires are attached to the inside of the tire. If they get big enough then they will release and bounce around the inside of the tire. At least that is my experience.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

wadester said:


> Some thoughts -
> 
> Ammonia isn't really what keeps the latex from coagulating, but the pH of ammonia is. This is why CO2 coagulates latex - it is acidic and changes the pH of the sealant.
> 
> ...


So we have a 3rd theory. I like it!
I do think that adding ammonia can make the mixture less viscous.
However, I am going to pick nits with this shear theory. If it is the sheared stress, why, when I shake my mix at paint mixer velocities does it not solidify? Why when we drive our bikes down a hill at 35 miles per hour does the shearing not solidify the mixture? Is it because it is still under pressure? I once had a motorhome refrigerator spring a leak. The "Freon" of motorhome refrigerators is ammonia. I can not begin to describe the cloud of gas that covered half a block. Ammonia has a very high vapor pressure. Wade, you are the man, and I am not trying to dis you or big0mike in any way but trying to have a scientific (even though I am not a scientist) discussion of what is going on chemically in our mixes. So if it is a PH thing, I don't know all the details, but PH is all about hydrogen ions. Since hydrogen is 1 proton + 1 Neutron and 1 electron - IIRC then ammonia is a base (High ph number) and therefore a negative charge (seeks protons). Also, I found in Wikipedia that ammonia boils at -27.04 degrees F so that means that at most of the temps we ride in, it is just waiting to boil off from our mix. Of course things boil less if under pressure so I am thinking this supports my "pressure change-ammonia evaporates in a cascade" idea. I want to be convinced why shear stress seals the punctures and doesn't solidify the sealant when we are riding and bouncing off roots and rocks. And I want big0mike to support his theory also. We should all support our theories since that is how we find out what is true. I am more interested in the truth than being right.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

wadester said:


> Some thoughts -
> 
> The spraying punctures I've had sealed up too quickly for mere evaporation - I liked the shear stress concept, where the velocity thru the middle of the hole vs stopped at the edge would certainly cause a lot of shear in the sealant.
> 
> Most of the boogers I have found went along with a hefty thorn. I've even found the booger nailed to the tire by the thorn! I know the booger actually grew on the thorn in those cases, and I bet that the obstruction in the middle of the sealant's path causes shear as it cuts thru the sealant as you change speed.


Wadester, you bring up two points that I've been turning over in my head... the theory of shear stress occurred to me, but it was pure "what if" speculation... I've done many batches of WSS with an industrial tire sealant replacing the slime, and never had any ammonia in there beyond what was in the latex, so the notion of ammonia evaporation causing the sealant to work seemed unlikely...although it could be right on.
.....but the thorn/booger link is something I've observed many times, and I've often wondered if a booger I found tumbling around in my tire started out as one of those smaller thorn barnacles.

I'm also curious about the role of pH. We already established that hard water can cause latex coagulation... the latex mfrs stated that pretty clearly. So is neutral pH what we want? Anybody have any test strips around the house?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

wadester said:


> Some thoughts -
> 
> Ammonia isn't really what keeps the latex from coagulating, but the pH of ammonia is. This is why CO2 coagulates latex - it is acidic and changes the pH of the sealant.
> 
> ...


Why then does a puncture have to be rotated up in order to seal instead of just pissing out the liquid sealant? Maybe I don't understand venturi effect?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> I once had a motorhome refrigerator spring a leak. The "Freon" of motorhome refrigerators is ammonia. I can not begin to describe the cloud of gas that covered half a block. Also, I found in Wikipedia that ammonia boils at -27.04 degrees F so that means that at most of the temps we ride in, it is just waiting to boil off from our mix. Of course things boil less if under pressure so I am thinking this supports my "pressure change-ammonia evaporates in a cascade" idea. I want to be convinced why shear stress seals the punctures and doesn't solidify the sealant when we are riding and bouncing off roots and rocks. And I want big0mike to support his theory also. We should all support our theories since that is how we find out what is true. I am more interested in the truth than being right.


Good discussion - and well said! We do not know why latex seals holes - just that it does. Probably all of the things we think working together, but if we knew for sure we could adjust to assist these modes. No dis taken.

Ammonia. Yes, pure ammonia (anhydrous, or water free) boils at -28F. But if we needed to worry about that, the clear ammonia I use would be in a pressure bottle rather than a poly jug with a simple screw cap. Doesn't hiss like a carbonated beverage when you open it, either.

Ammonia in water works differently. Look at the Wikipedia.org Ammonia data page , about halfway down on the right "Vapor over Aqueous Ammonia Solution". At 20C, with a concentration around 10% ammonia - the vapor pressure is 10.75 kPa (1.56 psia) versus water vapor pressure of 2.01 kPa (0.3 psia). So ammonia is 5 times more likely to evaporate than water under those conditions - but how fast does water evaporate? This is why I don't think evaporation is important - for fast sealing. I think it does work for longer term plugging. I note that the air we breathe is at 101 kPa (14.7 psia) at sea level. Where I live it's typically around 86 kPa (12.5 psia)

I once found a link that talked about ammonia's role in keeping latex from coagulating or "vulcanizing at room temperature", but couldn't find it tonite.

Some other key info: "Ammonia is miscible with water. In an aqueous solution, it can be expelled by boiling. The aqueous solution of ammonia is basic. " "Ammonia is moderately basic, a 1.0 M aqueous solution has a pH of 11.6" "neutral pH = 7"

I'm still working on the shear theory, but I did find some info about sizing pumps to prevent shear coagulation in latex emulsions. But basically, they just said that if you used a high shear pump (like a centrifugal type) you needed to run it slower. So sheer stress does indeed coagulate latex - but not horribly so. I am thinking of the spraying I've seen - and specifically how it has been noted that the hole is typically sealed while air is blowing thru the hole. Pressure pushing liquid thru the hole hydraulically (at the bottom of the wheel) is relatively slow and fully wetted. Once you let air start blasting thru, the velocity goes way up - as does the shear. And the potential for evaporation.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

doismellbacon said:


> Wadester, you bring up two points that I've been turning over in my head... the theory of shear stress occurred to me, but it was pure "what if" speculation... I've done many batches of WSS with an industrial tire sealant replacing the slime, and never had any ammonia in there beyond what was in the latex, so the notion of ammonia evaporation causing the sealant to work seemed unlikely...although it could be right on.
> .....but the thorn/booger link is something I've observed many times, and I've often wondered if a booger I found tumbling around in my tire started out as one of those smaller thorn barnacles.
> 
> I'm also curious about the role of pH. We already established that hard water can cause latex coagulation... the latex mfrs stated that pretty clearly. So is neutral pH what we want? Anybody have any test strips around the house?


Ammonia has a high PH (like 12 or something) so water with a high PH (basic) would probably be best. Low ph (below 7) is considered acid and I always heard that if you combine an acid and a base you get a salt. Hardness in water is the amount of dissolved minerals in the water. Since ammonia is a base, it craves protons (has negative charge) so the minerals would tend to react with the ammonia and steal it from the latex which I think it is less tightly bound to. This would form crystals and we all know what crystals turn into so that is why we use distilled or RO water. Both should be almost completely devoid of minerals and other dissolved solids.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Not sure if this feedback helps or not, but I'm now running more Ammonia, new tire installs seal SUPER fast. Not sure if it's related, but something IS different. 

New tire test seated on rim with no sealant, and the tire was BLOWING air out. You could hear it AND feel the stream of air blasting out of the tire, around the bead. Add some of my sealant, pump up, shake a little, and no joke within 3 minutes the tire was 100% sealed. Not even a single bubble or bit of sealant coming out. Tire 3 days later lost 3psi.

Again not sure if it had to do with more Ammonia or not, just something that surprised me. I've experienced this "quick seal" happen with 5-6 tires so far with this latest batch. No more overnight monitoring of the tire needed, even a little bit.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

thuren said:


> Not sure if this feedback helps or not, but I'm now running more Ammonia, new tire installs seal SUPER fast. Not sure if it's related, but something IS different.
> 
> New tire test seated on rim with no sealant, and the tire was BLOWING air out. You could hear it AND feel the stream of air blasting out of the tire, around the bead. Add some of my sealant, pump up, shake a little, and no joke within 3 minutes the tire was 100% sealed. Not even a single bubble or bit of sealant coming out. Tire 3 days later lost 3psi.
> 
> Again not sure if it had to do with more Ammonia or not, just something that surprised me. I've experienced this "quick seal" happen with 5-6 tires so far with this latest batch. No more overnight monitoring of the tire needed, even a little bit.


This would tend to support my "cascade" theory. More ammonia=more cascading and less ammonia=less ammonia to get involved in the cascade.


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## Vader1 (Sep 26, 2013)

yourdaguy said:


> I am not sure this is true. ATF is basically hydraulic fluid with an additive package which is mostly for corrosion and to absorb moisture. It looks to me like the additive package would not want to swell rubber since there are many rubber seals within a transmission as well as numerous rubber o-rings, etc. There have been problems with alloy wheels having porosity leaks and GM even had some that were so bad they replaced them. I am thinking that the leaks were due to the porosity of the rim and that the ATF got into all the little crevasses and since it doesn't evaporate it was trapped, thereby sealing the leaks.
> 
> If you are not understanding this, the tire bead seats on the rim. If the rim has many microscopic channels in it the rubber does not conform to the very tiny channels. Air molecules are very small and can leak out (they even pass through a rubber inner-tube). The ATF would get in the little microscopic channels and "gum them up" so to speak. Their molecules are larger than air molecules (did you ever see ATF pass through an inner tube?) and because they are blocking the passages the air stays in. And because ATF does not evaporate, it stays in the microscopic channels.


ATF is known to have an additive that reconditions rubber. It sure does stop a bead leak on a car tire. As for a bike rim and tire, not so sure what it will do ???? Just something to add to the thought process of sealing air in a tire without a tube. ATF does not plug up holes...it actually swells and softens up seals so the seal plugs up tiny scratches on its own etc...The fluid itself cant stop air on it's own. This is just some fuel for thought. These days I would try Camel bead sealer for experimenting with sealing up bike tires and rims.


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## schwangster (Aug 28, 2013)

Having just gone tubeless this week, with 2 amazing rides under me, I'm know following this thread with curiosity. It reminds me of Chemistry class. Going to have to try a few of your recipes when time to add sealant.
Is there any chance of listing all the different recipes, with uses and results?

Good work.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Respectfully, DON'T PUT ATF ON YOUR BICYCLE TIRES!


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

schwangster said:


> Is there any chance of listing all the different recipes, with uses and results?
> 
> Good work.


It has been done a few times in the thread, but this is an active ongoing crowd sourced experiment, so it continually changes.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Most of you guys are way smarter than me... 

With that said one of the thoughts that crossed my mind about sealing holes was as the sealant leaves the tire it's now a very thin stream squirting out. This thin stream solidifies easier than a pot of sealant. Kinda like paint gets a sheet of solid paint over top of it if left open but the whole can doesn't solidify. The same way glue doesn't solidify in the bottle but when spread thin and exposed to open air it does.

The ammonia may or may not have anything to do with this.

And this may be complete crap coming out of my mouth.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> Most of you guys are way smarter than me...
> 
> With that said one of the thoughts that crossed my mind about sealing holes was as the sealant leaves the tire it's now a very thin stream squirting out. This thin stream solidifies easier than a pot of sealant. Kinda like paint gets a sheet of solid paint over top of it if left open but the whole can doesn't solidify. The same way glue doesn't solidify in the bottle but when spread thin and exposed to open air it does.
> 
> ...


Pffft! "Knows more trivia" does not equal smarter. You're doing fine, and I appreciate your contributions.

I was thinking about spray drying, but in the industrial process most of the drying happens downstream of the restriction. Still, the "solvent" or carrier liquid will start "boiling" in the reduced pressure in the restriction/nozzle.

Someone said they didn't know the Venturi effect - where a constriction in a flow path causes the fluid to speed up, and _the pressure to drop_. This effect was first described in a sciencey way in 1797 by Giovanni Battista Venturi. The carburetor uses the effect (low pressure at the restriction) to suck gasoline up out of the float bowl and spray it into the air going into the engine, atomizing and evaporating the gasoline so the engine can burn it.

Have you ever used a water bed drain kit? 








The part on the right is a Venturi. You flow water thru the straight part, and the side port taps into the restriction - and the reduced pressure there pulls the water out of the mattress. The first time I used one, I hooked the supply up to a small bathroom faucet with one garden hose and used another to attach to the water mattress. I turned the faucet on about 1/4 turn, then went to check the setup. The hose from the mattress to the venturi was sucked completely flat! A bare trickle of flow turned a king size fiber fill water mattress into what looked like a vacuum packed cracker that I could pick up with one hand in about 15 minutes!

Have you ever put your thumb over a water hose to make the water spray? You've used the Venturi effect!

For our purposes, I think that both the high velocity (shear effect) and the pressure drop (quicker evaporation) come into play. And especially once there is mixed fluid and gas present (hole at top of tire).


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## SlickWilly8019 (Sep 4, 2012)

TiGeo said:


> Update on my mix after ~1.5 months. Still lots of sloshing in the tires after plenty of riding. Zero weeping out of a tire casing (Specy Control) that weeped like crazy with WSS. I don't get many flats and we don't have "goat heads" here so can't comment on that, but I am v. happy with my mix. To refresh...my mix is:
> 
> 1 part Mold Builder latex
> 2.3 parts DI water
> ...


I followed the patent mix ratio except for the PG additive which they claim is to aid in keeping it fluid at freezing temperatures, where I live it rarely freezes so I added 2 ounces to the quart. I hadnt realized what liquid latex smells like it stunk up my kitchen. The biggest problem I had with the first batch of 3 ounces was the cornmeal was too coarse it wouldn't pull thru my horse syringe, thought I'd try to grind it into a finer powder and make up the 1 qt batch.

Is there a period of time that is needed for the cornmeal to soak up the liquid its suspended in, or will it remain unchanged?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The cornmeal generally will not soak up much moisture and what it does soak up will level off soon and it will not tend to soak up any more.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

SlickWilly8019 said:


> I followed the patent mix ratio except for the PG additive which they claim is to aid in keeping it fluid at freezing temperatures, where I live it rarely freezes so I added 2 ounces to the quart. I hadnt realized what liquid latex smells like it stunk up my kitchen. The biggest problem I had with the first batch of 3 ounces was the cornmeal was too coarse it wouldn't pull thru my horse syringe, thought I'd try to grind it into a finer powder and make up the 1 qt batch.
> 
> Is there a period of time that is needed for the cornmeal to soak up the liquid its suspended in, or will it remain unchanged?


The PG is being used as a wetting agent that makes the mix perform better and last longer so don't cut down on the quantity.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

SlickWilly8019 said:


> I followed the patent mix ratio except for the PG additive which they claim is to aid in keeping it fluid at freezing temperatures, where I live it rarely freezes so I added 2 ounces to the quart.


Propylene or Ethylene Glycol are in the mix because they have very low vapor pressure, and therefore do not evaporate anywhere nearly as quickly as water - keeping the mix liquid longer. Antifreeze part is good too.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

So if the PG is to keep the brew liquid longer than water would alone why do we need water at all?

Sent from my Thunderbolt via TapATalk 4


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Well for one thing, as we found out, it is hard to mix Pg and latex without first adding water preferably to both. I am not saying it could not be done, but I think in most cases if everything is not perfect the PG will immediately turn the latex into a solid.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Oh, yeah... :madman: forgot about that...


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

That, and there are some synergistic benefits to a water/glycol mix. Definitely better antifreezing that way than either alone, can't remember how it affects evaporation.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

I just mixed some WSS and using about 4oz per tire I had some heavy seepage on the front tire, so I added some more Slime to the main mix (total slime was then about 1.5 part) and then did the rear tire and sealed better afterward. 

They are regular clincher folding tires, so I was expecting some issues at the bead seal. Also I put 116 studs in each tires and so far only one stud has leaked a bit from being badly installed (the screw didn't drive itself straight in and enlarged the bore, so it's not perfectly tight), but I will have to test ride them before knowing for sure how good the setup will be.

My mix was (in mixing order) :

2 part tap water
1 part latex mold builder
1 part PG
1.2 part Slime automotive

I think I will go up to 1.5 part of Slime since the added chunks seems to help a lot sealing the cheap folding tire bead. I only mixed using 4oz parts, so still have plenty of supplies to find the right ratio. Thanks a lot Wade !


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

So to fix the seepage, I unseated each tires and brushed sealant on the beads of the rims and tires. A few dents on the rims edges where still causing small leaks, but after brushing some more on these exact spots, tires where good to go at 20psi. Did a 3km ride to the bank in the snow at -18°C and no leaks, but the pressure will have to go down to at least 16-17psi to have better traction on these quite small 2.1". I just hope the tires won't start to leak from the beads if I get down to 15psi only. I also setup my saddle bag with a spare tube, tire lever and a pump in a worst case scenario. Although I should probably get a CO2 cartridge inflator instead of carrying a pump.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Here are some pics of my OSS (BAMFS v2.0) after ~3 mos. If you recall, this is the Stan's copy that I made using the proportions from an old patent application that included cornmeal, PG, liquid latex (including ammonia), and distilled water. I started with 2 scoops (4oz) per wheel ~3 mos. ago and today I got roughly 1 scoop of liquid out. There was a decent sized booger in there too. I think this is a good result but I bet my cornmeal amount is off and may be the reason for the booger...but as I remember...Stan's does this too. I think having that much liquid left is decent for 3 mos. I wouldn't normally get many flats so I can't comment on the sealing capacity but I can't imagine it doesn't work. There wasn't much of a "skin" in the tire and I get zero weeping with this sealant.

Edit: I think the booger forms when my bike hangs up for weeks at a time with no riding.


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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

Is it normal for the bead to weep? This is my first go tubeless, and notice that where the tire meets the wheel is always wet. It's not a huge line of sealant, nor is it enough to create a drip, but it is most certainly there. 

Running Ardent 2.3 front and Ignitor 2.1 rear, taped with Gorilla Tape and Stans Valves. I seem to lose about a pound of air a day, but there is still plenty of sealant in each tire as I hear it slosh around. I let each tire set up for three days, shaking, rotating, laying on a bucket, and so on. I can provide a picture if needed, and any help would be greatly appreciated!


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

s0ul_chicken said:


> Is it normal for the bead to weep? This is my first go tubeless, and notice that where the tire meets the wheel is always wet. It's not a huge line of sealant, nor is it enough to create a drip, but it is most certainly there.
> 
> Running Ardent 2.3 front and Ignitor 2.1 rear, taped with Gorilla Tape and Stans Valves. I seem to lose about a pound of air a day, but there is still plenty of sealant in each tire as I hear it slosh around. I let each tire set up for three days, shaking, rotating, laying on a bucket, and so on. I can provide a picture if needed, and any help would be greatly appreciated!


Weeping is what people are trying to figure out if it comes from slime or ammonia or whatever else has been guessed at this thread.

I am using TiGeo/Thuren copy of the original stans patent, and have the exact same results as I do using normal stans. Why shouldn't I either since it's the exact same thing even down to the color. The only difference I'd ever like to find out is where stans or what brand stans is using for their Liquid Latex. I can assure you its not the mold builder we all have been using. I am semi curious of that liquid latex you find when searching on ebay (meant for like erotical/sex stuff/basically pour on a girls tits and it makes a mold) would work as good because you can get a larger volume at a cheaper price of it than the mold builder.

Losing 1lbs a day of air is not that bad. The key key key to making sure your setup correctly is to make sure the tape is ALL the way down and covering the rim with no parts of the tape have peeled up or leaks. Gorilla tape is good and I used to use it, but the probelm i have with it, is that it leaves a ton of residue if you ever want to re-do your tape job. The reason you have to re-do tape jobs is because when you go to change a tire (which i do a lot depending on the terrain i am racing in) the bead will want to grab the top of the gorilla tape as you are popping the bead off and pull it up. At that point that you see your tape kind of moved to the side it's time to re-tape. This is why strapping tape is better. It leaves no residue. It seals up and binds to the rim really well if you clean the rim with alcohol. It's also dirt cheap too.

JVCC TPS-01 Light Duty Tensilized Polypropylene Strapping Tape: 1 in. x 60 yds. (Black) - Amazon.com

If your leak turns into more than 1lbs a day your tape is not correct. It has nothing to do with your sealant.


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

On the topic of stan's goblins (the booger looking thing) will adding small amounts of water/PG into the tire every couple months help prevent them? Since the tubless gue can "dry out" and requires adding more sealant, it seems that a frequent small addition of water/PG will keep the latex from concentrating inside the tire and forming goblins.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Small amounts of water/ammonia might work better, since it is the ammonia that keeps the latex in liquid form. I am going to try this too, as topping off with sealant seems to increase the viscosity over time.


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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

Good to know - and thanks for the information! I haven't checked pressures since the Wednesday morning, so tonight when I get home I will give check pressures to see how much I have lost. 

I will give the strapping tape a go when it comes time to change out tires - I do wish that I would have found the strapping tape first though.... live and learn!! Thanks again!


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

maxtheheathen said:


> I brush the inside of the sidewalls with rubber cement when mounting a new tire. Seals most of the sidewall leaks, so you use less sealant. Doesn't completely eliminate weeping, but I'd say drastically reduced.


i have been reading this whole post back from the first page (i want to see all the different stages the WSS has gone through and gauge what i will put in mine(and post results obviously)). im on page 16 at this point. i have seen lots of people talk about using rubber cement on the side walls.

My question is: would that harm the rim in any way? or does it just peel off when you want it to? and wouldn't that also degrade the tire in some way?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Rubber cement would probably not hurt the tire but I think that was a dead end that a few people went down. I never tried it, but I haven't heard about it in the last 2000 posts or so.


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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

The weeping has stopped, and is now holding pressure. I would assume at this point that it just needed a bit of time to fully seal. I went for a ride today and didn't have any dust around the bead, so that tells me everything is fine. I cleaned the wheels and six hours later, all is dry.

So far, I am pleased with the results of the WSS, and really notice a difference in the overall quality of the ride. The biggest difference I see is how easy it is to get the bike rolling, and how much more supple the ride is. Thank you for the brew! Best 113 pages of reading EVER!


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

s0ul_chicken said:


> The weeping has stopped, and is now holding pressure. I would assume at this point that it just needed a bit of time to fully seal. I went for a ride today and didn't have any dust around the bead, so that tells me everything is fine. I cleaned the wheels and six hours later, all is dry.
> 
> So far, I am pleased with the results of the WSS, and really notice a difference in the overall quality of the ride. The biggest difference I see is how easy it is to get the bike rolling, and how much more supple the ride is. Thank you for the brew! Best 113 pages of reading EVER!


glad im not the only one taking the plunge!


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

skikarl said:


> glad im not the only one taking the plunge!


I did too, but still have small leaks on the rim bead. I run 18psi on both tires and it usually goes down to 9-10 psi over a week sitting in the basement. No major leaking, just have to pump them back up before the ride. But otherwise, no leaks from the casing itself and this means a lot since I have 116 M3 bolts studs sticking out of each tires and in 30 miles of riding, not a single leak from any of them.

Acceleration is amazing too, but that might be from the 380g carbon rims I'm running haha


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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

David C said:


> I did too, but still have small leaks on the rim bead. I run 18psi on both tires and it usually goes down to 9-10 psi over a week sitting in the basement. No major leaking, just have to pump them back up before the ride. But otherwise, no leaks from the casing itself and this means a lot since I have 116 M3 bolts studs sticking out of each tires and in 30 miles of riding, not a single leak from any of them.
> 
> Acceleration is amazing too, but that might be from the 380g carbon rims I'm running haha


WOW! 18psi? You must be a featherweight rider!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I run 20 psi and I'm 200+ lbs, a lot depends on the size of the tire. My fat biker friends run 10 psi or less. 

David C- Try seating those beads at ~40 psi overnight.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

I plan to run about 25-30. Maybe step it down as I see fit. My rims have a bead locker on them so I feel they would be OK at lower pressure. But I would be a bit gun shy of causing a bead burp

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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

I have been using the Stans formula - yesterday I ran 27.5 front and 30.5 rear. After reading what you guys are riding, I think I will drop five and see how it goes for today's ride.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I run 22-23 in front and 24-26 in the back depending which tires I am running. I don't really big tires; if I did I would run them lower. I weigh 170 with gear and ride "lightly".

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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

i am also wondering about the gorilla tape method. is there a thread about it in particular (a quick search did not show much) and would i put the tape over the manufacturers rim strip or get rid of it(im thinking keep)? this would be on P-XC2 29 rims


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

skikarl said:


> i am also wondering about the gorilla tape method. is there a thread about it in particular (a quick search did not show much) and would i put the tape over the manufacturers rim strip or get rid of it(im thinking keep)? this would be on P-XC2 29 rims


Its fairly straight forward...lots of info on here...just google it (gorilla ghetto tubeless). You would take off the existing rim strip and tape if with Gorilla tape. Add a valve stem (to go truly ghetto...just cut one out of an old inner tube and use a little silicone to glue it down as they can leak). The issue here is how tightly the tire will fit...if it is too loose, it will be a @#$# to seat...even with an air compressor. You need to build up the rim enough so that the tire is snug but not so tight you can't get it on/off without too much trouble.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Be aware that with Gorilla tape your tire can burp if it is not on a Stans or similar rim.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Also be aware that it takes a little more finesse to run low pressures. You can't just plant your ass and rail through hard turns. Keep your weight evenly distributed at all times. Becomes natural quickly.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

so walmart was out of gorilla tape. so i got some of this.









Dont know how it will hold up. i would think 2 or so wrap arounds of it would do just as good (if not better due to the fact that it is meant to seal water (aka sealant)) it is foil backed as well so i could cut it to lengths easier and split it in half before actually taking the foil off and using it


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Pimp my ride ^^

They didn't had any zebra or cheetah one ?


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

bsieb said:


> ^I run 20 psi and I'm 200+ lbs, a lot depends on the size of the tire. My fat biker friends run 10 psi or less.
> 
> David C- Try seating those beads at ~40 psi overnight.


Thanks, I'll try it for tonight and see. I remember when I first mounted everything on, that too much pressure was actually forcing air and sealant out of the tire by the bead all around. I'm pretty sure it was around 40psi, and then I found 20-25psi to stop the forced air leaks and keep enough pressure to seal the bead too. But after a few rides, it's probably not gonna behave the same way, so I'll give it a try anyway.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

David C said:


> Pimp my ride ^^
> 
> They didn't had any zebra or cheetah one ?


thats just regular duct tape, this is SPECIAL duct tape. they had camo gorilla tape. but it was a matte finish and i was worried that it would let sealant seep


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Behold ! Space-Age DuckTape Has Arrived !


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

so...im just going to go ahead and use the duct tape and report back


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Yep !

ON my side, I'll try to convert my FR bike using gorilla tape to see if the rims (WTB FR Dual-Duty, 2005ish) will accept to seat the wire bead tires or not.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Also, for my brew i am doing 

1-latex mold builder
2-slime
2-water

this is the V2 mix. i have only gotten to page 23 of this post in my reading. has anything changed that i should know before i mix it? also i am planing on adding some tiger hair (strands of cut up fiber glass mat) to my mix to help chunkulation.


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## Shrek1 (Aug 1, 2013)

skikarl said:


> Also, for my brew i am doing
> 
> 1-latex mold builder
> 2-slime
> ...


Check out post #2765


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Shrek1 said:


> Check out post #2765


Thanks. however, everything i have read further back is talking about taking the anti freeze out of the mix. and that the slime had it in it instead. i just bought the slime after all!! and the slime has more chunks in it and what not. then again thats what the corn is...SO MANY CHOICES


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

skikarl said:


> Thanks. however, everything i have read further back is talking about taking the anti freeze out of the mix. and that the slime had it in it instead. i just bought the slime after all!! and the slime has more chunks in it and what not. then again thats what the corn is...SO MANY CHOICES


The problem with V2 /double slime mix is that it's too thick. The fiber overwhelms everything else. I recall opening a tire after only a relatively short time to find what looked like horse turds rolling about in there - and nothing else! The original V1 WSS mix with added ammonia (clear cleaning ammonia) seems to be a better pick.

You can still use antifreeze, but USP propylene glycol is better. Distilled water rather than tap - all about purity and not putting anything in the mix that isn't working for you.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

ok so like 1 latex 1 slime 1 ammonia 2 water? or some anti freeze and some ammonia. a better question would be if you were to make a mix tomorrow what would you put in it?


P.S. This was my 69th post. lolololololololololololololololololololololol


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

skikarl said:


> ok so like 1 latex 1 slime 1 ammonia 2 water? or some anti freeze and some ammonia. a better question would be if you were to make a mix tomorrow what would you put in it?


Well, antifreeze/glycol is there to reduce evaporation of the carrier liquid - so that's a definite. Last batch was 1 latex/1 slime/1 PG/ 1/2 clear ammonia/2 distilled water/ 1/2 additional chunkulations.

I find that mixing the latex into the slime then adding the rest one at a time does not lead to premature coagulation.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Thank you master. I will report back on my waterproof duct tape method 

Also how do you feel about my tiger hair (fiberglass strands) idea. Slime has Cotton fibers in it. So I think short fiber glass fibers would work nicely as well. And some eraser shavings maybe

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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

In addition to reducing evaporation, the glycol also prevents freezing in low temperatures.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

skikarl said:


> how do you feel about my tiger hair (fiberglass strands) idea. Slime has Cotton fibers in it. So I think short fiber glass fibers would work nicely as well. And some eraser shavings maybe


I'm not sure what the fibers in slime are, but any flexible fiber should work. This is more about replacing slime than augmenting.

Eraser shavings? We're talking unvulcanized rubber - so more reactive (less desirable)

Also, shape seems to be important. Flat plates, like glitter, don't work. Long slim cylinders, like fibers, work. Rough spheroids, like ground up rubber chunks, seem to work. What shape are your eraser shavings?


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Erasers are non vulcanized? Why don't they rot away in a drawer then? Odd. Any way I was thinking of just hitting a plain peice of paper with a clean stick eraser. Not the back of a pencil. They would be 3-4 mm long little cylanders 

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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

wadester said:


> I'm not sure what the fibers in slime are, but any flexible fiber should work. This is more about replacing slime than augmenting.
> 
> Eraser shavings? We're talking unvulcanized rubber - so more reactive (less desirable)
> 
> Also, shape seems to be important. Flat plates, like glitter, don't work. Long slim cylinders, like fibers, work. Rough spheroids, like ground up rubber chunks, seem to work. What shape are your eraser shavings?


Cornmeal has been discussed and used...read through the last several pages. Seems to work great and *apparently* is what the bits in Stan's are.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Yeah. I was going for a bit of creativity. And working twords the open source-ness of it all. Idk about the Erasers that was just a thought. I think the fiber glass would be promising. I will be using what wade just advised (version 3?) for the WSS and some fiberglass 

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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

*WSS Version 3*

Duly noted- :thumbsup:

WSS V3 as per Wadester: "Last batch was 1 latex/1 slime/1 PG/ 1/2 clear ammonia/2 distilled water/ 1/2 additional chunkulations."

My own thinking is that chunkulation needs to be finer than most incidental fiber/chunks that are being used. They take on an existence of their own (goobers) if they are too big or too interlocking. The masa harina cornmeal chunks look like little footballs in comparison, and probably function more like sand and aggregate in concrete.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Made my V3 mix!!









Here is my result: 44 oz of WSS V3.
1-mold builder($10.19 after 40% off coupon at michaels)
1-slime($9.17 at walmart)
1-PG($2.97 for a gallon at walmart)
2-water(i boiled some tap water. we have clean water here, meh)
1/2-clear ammonia(it was a "great value" at $.99 for a half gallon. walmart)

Total of ~$23. i also bought the jar and 2 tubes and 2 different types of tape...and some super glue...and some pens for my girlfriend...but 'dat sause was cheap

mixed: mold->slime->water->ammonia->PG









My batch of ingredients and tools









And my (super precise totally scientific) measuring cup. i made by filling a 1 cup/8oz measuring cup with water, pouring it into a can i cut the top off of, and marking the height.

the slime chunks sunk to the bottom. i dont know if that will change after some time, the water was still hot when i added it. so it should solidify some more.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^keep in mind that rv antifreeze doesn't = pg. The antifreeze is half water plus who knows what. Further, I would recommend spending another dollar on distilled water (for your next batch), as boiling the water wont change its miniral composition. While I have no doubt your brew will work (unless warm water put a wrench into the equation), I'm hoping v3 with the pure ingredients will last longer than past variations. I currently get at best 3 months with a variation of V1 during the warm season. 
My last batch was similar to v3 but with 1-1/2 lime and no additional chunkulators.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Yeah boiling it did basically nothing. But other people have used and gotten very good results with the rv anti freeze. I don't think the warm water would effect it on a molecular level as far as the mix goes. 

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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

wadester said:


> The best sidewall coating idea I've heard is to brush with straight mold builder latex, but I know that when a tire finally dries out I can wipe/wash out most of the latex residue.


also opted to give this a try


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

skikarl said:


> Yeah boiling it did basically nothing. But other people have used and gotten very good results with the rv anti freeze. I don't think the warm water would effect it on a molecular level as far as the mix goes.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


The antifreeze works fine, I was pointing it out for two reasons: Your mix might be water heavy, and because we suspect a pure pg will make the mix last longer in the tire.
Unless you know what kind of parts per million are in your water, you'd have to assume some of those are salt and minerals that could shorten the life of the brew.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The mix you have made will work fine for sealing the bead and small punctures. The big thing is to make sure it is more watery than not. You have added ammonia which I didn't when I was using WSS so this may help out in that respect. You can get pure PG online or at Tractor Supply in the animal care section...its a bit more $$ than the RV but you loose the "who knows what" in the RV. Also, the mix you have is known to weep from the sidewalls over time (which is partially why I think it thickens up over time in the tire) so watch for that..not a big deal but you may see beads/lines/whips of green all over your tire.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

It is rather thin. That was the idea I belive. I might ad another Oz or so of builder. And the weeping is why I pre-coated my tire

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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

I've never weeped with wss and have run multiple maxxis, bontrager, and geax tires.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

I think I may add some more mold builder. Stans has 2.3 water. So if there is a bit more than 2 it should be fine 

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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

Actually, if you boil water and collect only the steam, you essentially have distilled water.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

He actually boiled the water, which actually concentrated the bad stuff.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

I only heated it up for like. 2 minutes. I just wanted to get fire involved in the chemistry lol. 

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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

skikarl said:


> I just wanted to get fire involved in the chemistry lol.


This is how the best stories start.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

watts888 said:


> This is how the best stories start.


thank you, finally someone that is not talking my efforts down! (notthatanyoneelseisimjustsaying)

The brew settled nicely. i cant really say, because this was my first batch, but i think the hot water made the mixing much easier. i also added a tad bit more mold builder today to thicken it up a bit because it was a bit more watery than i would like

EDIT: side note, the tires turned out wonderfully with the sidewalls brushed with the mold builder.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Great


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

s0ul_chicken said:


> WOW! 18psi? You must be a featherweight rider!


If you're like me you use "normal" tires with a ghetto setup. I always ran heavy, dual ply tires at 27-28 lbs. Anything less resulted in dented rims. Just recently I bought some real UST tires and I run them at 23# and get the same amount of flex as I did with "normal" tires at 27#. All those extra threads in the sidewall apparently make a big difference...


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

big0mike said:


> If you're like me you use "normal" tires with a ghetto setup. I always ran heavy, dual ply tires at 27-28 lbs. Anything less resulted in dented rims. Just recently I bought some real UST tires and I run them at 23# and get the same amount of flex as I did with "normal" tires at 27#. All those extra threads in the sidewall apparently make a big difference...


The tires I run tubeless are folding regular tires and using the WSS brew, but I'm like 120# with gear and too high pressure (talking 25+) just makes me bounce around on the trails. I have to agree, it always depends on the tire volume and casing, but generally speaking I'm always between 15-25 when trail riding, tubeless or not, regular ply tires, nothing fancy. I do get a lot of flex and usually use it as a starting point in determining what pressure should I run. Also wide rims provide more air volume and requires less pressure for the same amount of flex.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Ust tires are quite a bit heavier then their tubed counterpart for a reason 

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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

I didn't like dropping the five pounds, I felt like I was riding too flat for my fat ass as the ride was rather squishy in turns. I did go back up to the original start point minus one pound front and rear, and it felt very plush. I may try another pound drop, but I don't see the benefit at this point other than trial and error. Not fond of the error part, as I can excel in farking something up with the best intentions.

Front is 26.5, rear is at 29.5. 205 pounds with gear.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

"if it ain't broke don't fix it" 

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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

175 lbs 190 geared up and on the bike. I run 23 24 front 28-30 rear


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

skikarl said:


> "if it ain't broke don't fix it"
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


Exactly. Which reminds me of this fun fact about the soda can you cut the top off. Next time, simply take a can opener to it, and you will get a nice and smooth open soda can, great for any type of mixing/containing liquids like mineral spirits when you're doing brush painting (instead of a plastic cup), etc.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

David C said:


> Exactly. Which reminds me of this fun fact about the soda can you cut the top off. Next time, simply take a can opener to it, and you will get a nice and smooth open soda can, great for any type of mixing/containing liquids like mineral spirits when you're doing brush painting (instead of a plastic cup), etc.


Pfft! Where's the fun in that? Ragged edges, fire..... It's all about living on the edge!

On another topic, I tried a new trick last night. I use a syringe injector to add sealant, but to load it I would dip the end into the sealant jug - and have to clean it off, wasting sealant. I realized that I could have the syringe hooked up to the valve, take the plunger out of the syringe, and pour sealant directly into the syringe. Much neater! Except. A bunch of rubber crumb dropped right down the connector hose into the valve as I filled the syringe and sealed it up. The fix was to kink the hose while pouring. Then install the plunger, invert the syringe and shake. Everything went back into the proper distribution and injected w/o issue. I note that I run shraeder valves, but if you're injecting thru presta, this could work there as well. YMMV.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

skikarl said:


> Ust tires are quite a bit heavier then their tubed counterpart for a reason


In my case my dual-ply non-UST tires were as heavy or heavier than the UST tires I'm running now at 5# less air.



wadester said:


> On another topic, I tried a new trick last night. I use a syringe injector to add sealant, but to load it I would dip the end into the sealant jug - and have to clean it off, wasting sealant. I realized that I could have the syringe hooked up to the valve, take the plunger out of the syringe, and pour sealant directly into the syringe. Much neater! Except. A bunch of rubber crumb dropped right down the connector hose into the valve as I filled the syringe and sealed it up. The fix was to kink the hose while pouring. Then install the plunger, invert the syringe and shake. Everything went back into the proper distribution and injected w/o issue. I note that I run shraeder valves, but if you're injecting thru presta, this could work there as well. YMMV.


That's the way I've always done it and the only time I've clogged is when using silica gel as a chunk without xantham gum. The silica gel was too heavy to float at all.

Now, even without xantham gum, it takes several days for my rubber crumb to start settling at the bottom. After about two weeks the whole mix is COMPLETELY separated.

If you're rubber crumb is settling instantly I'd say that's a problem but we've already determined that most of you guys like the sealant WAAAAAAAAY thinner than me so take that diagnosis for what it's worth.


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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

For a whopping $1.25, I found a set of three, 2oz. bottles at Hobby Lobby with a spout that fits inside the Stans valve. The top unscrews making for easy filling, no mess, and no fuss! Shoot and go!


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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

Yep, deleted.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

delete


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

slocaus said:


> It was spam, get it out of your quote or you are just passing it on.


Now you're passing it on !

Argh me too !


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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

At an attempt to restart where we left off before we were so rudely interrupted...

For a whopping $1.25, I found a set of three, 2oz. bottles at Hobby Lobby with a spout that fits inside the Stans valve. The top unscrews making for easy filling, no mess, and no fuss! Shoot and go!

View attachment 861063


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

That's pretty cool. So you can keep one with you in your pack on longer rides for potential burps. Or to save someone's day

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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

skikarl said:


> That's pretty cool. So you can keep one with you in your pack on longer rides for potential burps. Or to save someone's day
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


I haven't put one in the pack yet for fear of the spout cap coming off, it doesn't take much pressure to release it. I will figure out something though....


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Tape that shizzz. You have a blade or a sick or something to open it 

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## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

big0mike said:


> With that said one of the thoughts that crossed my mind about sealing holes was as the sealant leaves the tire it's now a very thin stream squirting out. This thin stream solidifies easier than a pot of sealant. Kinda like paint gets a sheet of solid paint over top of it if left open but the whole can doesn't solidify.
> 
> The ammonia may or may not have anything to do with this.
> 
> And this may be complete crap coming out of my mouth.


I refer to post #2633.

Latex coagulate by "shear-induced coagulation". When the sealant is forced through the puncture hole the strong fluid shearing that occurs causes the spontaneous latex coagulation. The shear associated with sloshing of sealant in the tyre is minute compared to the shear through a small hole. Solids (or chunkulators), whether fibres or granules, reduce the size of the puncture hole and the coagulated latex blocks between the matrix of chunkulators.

I think a combination of fibre and granules will help this blocking. My next batch will be a combination of corn meal as chunkulators to my Jack Russel Terrier hair (just as good as your Dane hair)

Ammonia can only evaporate once the sealant leaves the tire (too late) and even with ammonia removed I wouldn't expect spontaneous coagulation to occur. The ammonia is there only to prevent premature coagulation in the tyre.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Shear-induced coagulation is my new favorite phrase.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

I liked "matrix of chuckulators" 

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## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

skikarl said:


> I liked "matrix of chuckulators"
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


I thought it would be "pramature coagulation"


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Update on my Stan's clone OSS. Its been 3 mos. I popped open my rear tire (I did the front a month ago..pics above). Found a booger about the standard size in there and most of the free-flowing liquid was gone...a little left. I topped it off with a fresh scoop. Seems to be on-par with Stan's (which I realized is one of the reasons this thread got started...to try to get more longevity from the sealant). There were bits of the cornmeal visible in the tire.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

skikarl said:


> I liked "matrix of chuckulators"


I wish I puked more often so I could get some use out of that one!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> I wish I puked more often so I could get some use out of that one!


For that purpose, I would just go with "I thought I chewed my food better than this".


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## MattZo (Jul 1, 2009)

This thread has been a very interesting (and long) read. I am going to give a home brew a go following my experience with Stans drying up and failing to seal a small puncture recently. The liquid had only been in the tyre about 6 weeks or so. Maybe I didn't use enough but I understood that a 29 x 2.2 tyre should require 2 stans scoops. 
I live in the uk, so began searching for the ingredients but am unsure about the PG and ammonia. When I googled the PG I found numerous results for di propylene glycol as well as mono propylene glycol. Can someone let me know which sort I should be using please. 
Also, the ammonia search came up with lots of cleaning products but not much in the way of pure chemical product. There was a listing stating ammonia 25 to 30%w I assume that means by weight. Would that be any good?
Thanks in advance for any advice.


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## hootsmon (Feb 7, 2008)

Hi Mattzo, good work, you're basically on the right track.
Regarding ammonia, unless I'm very much mistaken all the NH3 you'll require for the WSS recipe comes pre-dissolved in the liquid latex (a.k.a. mold-builder). To be clear, the liquid-latex ingredient contains all the NH3 you'll need.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

25 to 30 %is about the strongest you can buy. Adding some improves the mix.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Pure ammonia is some nasty stuff. You don't want it, trust me. Any of the water diluted products will do - but pick the one with the least additional etc. in it. Current best practice does indeed include additional ammonia, and the more you add (while keeping the same total liquids in the mix) the more fluid the overall mix is - which is a good thing.

I am struck by a thought here. The purpose of ammonia is to keep the pH of the latex in the right range to discourage premature coagulation - if you had pH test strips in the right range, you could put in enough additional ammonia to match the original pH of the latex before mixing. Hmm. An interesting experiment to see how much is enough...... PH test strips in 1-14 seem to be commonly available, but I'll see what I can find local.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Yeah WSS v3 has a half a part of ammonia 

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## MattZo (Jul 1, 2009)

skikarl said:


> Yeah WSS v3 has a half a part of ammonia
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


I'm afraid I have kind of lost track of versions. I am thinking of starting with the original WSS recipe but as I can't seem to find antifreeze that hasn't got other additives included or uses a PG base,(it all seems to be EG and I have pets so would rather not use), replacing the antifreeze with propylene glycol and using deionized water.
That would be: 
1 part latex
1 part slime
1 part PG 
2 parts deionized water

Would it be beneficial to add a little corn meal?

When I googled propylene glycol, I was confronted with a choice of Di propylene glycol or mono propylene glycol, there didn't seem to be any result for just PG. Can anyone confirm which I should use please.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Walmart rv antifreeze works very well. It has water and some additives. But it's all good. It helps keep the aluminum rims from corroding. 

V3 is 

1 part latex 
1 part slime
1 part anti freeze (regular Stans uses 2.3 part water so the extra water in rv anti freeze is ok) 
1/2 ammonia 
2 parts water

Corm meal is perfect. It's in stans




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## MattZo (Jul 1, 2009)

skikarl said:


> Walmart rv antifreeze works very well. It has water and some additives. But it's all good. It helps keep the aluminum rims from corroding.
> 
> V3 is
> 
> ...


Thanks for the recap on the v3 recipe.
I live in the UK so the antifreeze recommendation is wasted on me. I will pick some other cheap concentrate up from a auto parts store.
I am still unsure about sourcing ammonia. There are plenty of places that sell ammonia as a cleaning solution but I don't know what their concentrations are or what else they are mixed with, would it be suitable as the ammonia part of the brew?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

MattZo said:


> Would it be beneficial to add a little corn meal?


Sure, no problem. Extra chunks are good - as long as there is enough carrier liquid to keep things flowing around.



MattZo said:


> When I googled propylene glycol, I was confronted with a choice of Di propylene glycol or mono propylene glycol, there didn't seem to be any result for just PG. Can anyone confirm which I should use please.


Interesting. I check up on this and found Shell Chemicals propylene-glycols .

"MPG's most important end use is in the production of unsaturated polyester resins which, in turn, are used to make everyday items such as bath tubs, small boats and water/chemical tanks and pipes. Other end use application areas are paints and coatings; aeroplane de-icers/anti-icers; *antifreeze and industrial coolants*; detergents; hydraulic fluids; and cosmetics. "

"The end uses of DPG include unsaturated polyester resins, plasticisers, alkyd resins, cosmetics and urethane polyols."

I also found some reference to TRI PG, also referred to as a "heavy glycol". Also used in chemical processing.

MSDS's for non-tox antifreeze just list Propylene Glycol w/o specifying, but it looks like you would want monoPG - which Shell also lists as the USP version.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The USP version is what they feed to cows. That certifies that it is pure to whatever the US standard is. This is readily available in the Midwest of the US where I live and is what I use.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Ideal Animal Health Propylene Glyco, 1 gal. - Tractor Supply Co.

Amazon.com: Propylene Glycol - Food Grade USP - 1 Quart (32 Oz.): Health & Personal Care

A gallon will last a long time. FYI


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## mces (Apr 12, 2011)

What's the consensus on corn meal. I remember reading some pages back that the precooked is best, but I can't find precooked locally...would prefer to use regular corn meal if it's ok.


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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

bsieb said:


> Ideal Animal Health Propylene Glyco, 1 gal. - Tractor Supply Co.
> 
> Amazon.com: Propylene Glycol - Food Grade USP - 1 Quart (32 Oz.): Health & Personal Care
> A gallon will last a long time. FYI


Steve Regan Co out of SLC and Boise carry PGFG also for around $20.00 gal


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

mces said:


> What's the consensus on corn meal. I remember reading some pages back that the precooked is best, but I can't find precooked locally...would prefer to use regular corn meal if it's ok.


I recall that the precooked was favored, but more because it was smaller chunks than anything else. I would just use whatcha got - unless you have something that would grind it up a bit. There's no clear answer back on best sizes of "globular" chunk, so just record what you've got and report back when it dies.


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## Uncle Six Pack (Aug 29, 2004)

I am curious about the use of ammonia. Are all of these variations using the basic stuff you use for cleaning/disinfecting or a purer type? I was thinking the stuff you can buy at the store is fairly diluted, so 1-2 oz doesn't sound like much. Then again, I guess not much is needed.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

We all use the cleaning type. Pure ammonia is nasty stuff.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

So, what is the deal, with the corn meal?

A few points/questions....

If it is used in Stan's, I'm willing to give it a shot. I've delved into home brew as Stan's was pricey, and at times you'd buy an old, ineffective batch. But overall I found it worked pretty well. WSS, while much cheaper to make, seemed to work about the same as fresh Stan's for me. Biggest problem I've had with WSS is at times it would just blow through a hole, all watery, and not clog/clump and seal. So, the cornmeal might just help.

Got some cornmeal in the kitchen and just took it out. I suspect it is the pre-cooked by appearance. Seems to have two components - the small granular chunks, and the pulverized powder. I can see where the small chunks would be beneficial. What about the powder part?

How are you using the cornmeal? Do you rinse it first? How much do you put it per batch of original WSS? By batch I mean the 1:1:2... etc mix, where 1 = 1 cup.

Ammonia - I started with about 1-2 tablespoons per "batch". Is that still the favored amount?

Thanks.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Double post! :'(


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Depending on batch size that is not quite enough. I'm sure it still helps though. But v3 WSS is
1 latex
1 slime
1 pg antifreeze 
2 water 
1/2 ammonia 
1/2 additional chunkulation. 

If you use a half gallon container then 1 cup is a good use for a part. You wind up with 48 Oz of WSS (to answer the question at this scale that would be 4oz or half a cup of corn meal) and some room to shake it. I would throw the corn meal in a flower sifter and shake it up to get the powder out. Rinsing could work too. 

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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

S


skikarl said:


> Depending on batch size that is not quite enough. I'm sure it still helps though. But v3 WSS is
> 1 latex
> 1 slime
> 1 pg antifreeze
> ...


What is your mixing procedure/order on that?


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

In first to last

Latex - slime - ammonia - water - pg - chunks. 

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## arphaxhad (Apr 17, 2008)

I feel a little behind the times. I am still using version 1.x something.

1 latex
2 slime
2 antifreeze

Simple, effective, and easy to remember.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

mces said:


> What's the consensus on corn meal. I remember reading some pages back that the precooked is best, but I can't find precooked locally...would prefer to use regular corn meal if it's ok.


Basic cornmeal seems to work just fine - I just got the kind that comes in a cardboard can at Kroger.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I may try to add a little ammonia in place of some of the water next batch to see if reduces boogeration. I need to hit Hobby Lobby for some more Mold Builder this weekend and will go ahead and pick some up. To me, the latex/ammonia in my OSS (Stan's wannabe) is the only mystery in terms of proportions - what is the ammonia to latex ratio in mold builder vs. whatever Stan's uses. After ~3 mos. I had a moderate sized single booger in each tire with some free-flowing sealant left.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

BTW, they carry the PG at Tractor Supply in the animal care section. ~$20 for a gallon which will last forever!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

skikarl said:


> Corm meal is perfect. It's in stans


Actually, we don't know what is in Stan's (only Stan knows!). I started the cornmeal thing here as it was listed in an old patent application I found in an old thread. It seems to match the consistency/feel of the "crystals" in Stan's, but lets be careful how we present things here. Again, we don't actually know what is in Stan's; we are just speculating.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKERRRRRRR!!1! Nice quad post lol. And I was referring to it being in the old version of Stans not the modern one. I should have said "it was in Stans" 

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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

skikarl said:


> C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKERRRRRRR!!1! Nice quad post lol. And I was referring to it being in the old version of Stans not the modern one. I should have said "it was in Stans"
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


But we don't know it was in the old one either.

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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

I would figure if he patented it he would have sold at least some of it. It's not cheap to get a patent after all. One way or another it is a good option. One object that can be different shapes and sizes. 

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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Have you read the patent application I posted a while back? It calls the chunks "aggregate" and that cornmeal may be used. Its the "may" that is the reason I am saying this.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

This is one of many threads I wish could have a reboot. Way too much to go through when I'm just looking for a basic homebrew recipe

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## arphaxhad (Apr 17, 2008)

cpfitness said:


> This is one of many threads I wish could have a reboot. Way too much to go through when I'm just looking for a basic homebrew recipe
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


Just Sayin...

Best Tubeless Brew? - Page 116

I have it in tires with sidewall slits sewn up with dental floss and it seals like a champ.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

Yeah they all work, obviously. But the constant changes are in pursuit of perfection. Looking for the one that. 1 seals fast. 2 lasts long. 3 stays thin. 

Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^We are all looking for that one.  The original formula with pure ingredients and added ammonia does it pretty well. (1 latex, 1 slime, 1 PG, 2 water, 1/2 cup ammonia)


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm planning on doing 2 different blends next time around. One for initial setup with no additional ammonia or chunks, and reduced (or no) PG. My hope is that applying a sealant like this in a small dose (maybe 2 oz) to a new tire will seal it up and quickly create a thin latex skin through evaporation of the carrier (straight water).... run that for a few weeks, then add a longer lasting chunky blend with ammonia and PG for longer life & fewer boogers.


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## arphaxhad (Apr 17, 2008)

skikarl said:


> the constant changes are in pursuit of perfection


Life is to short to waste energy pursuing that which cannot be obtained...


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Inquiring minds want to know.


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## clarkrw3 (Feb 21, 2011)

My most recent mix (1 latex, 1 slime, 2 PG(no water added so 50:50 PG:H2O), 1 water, 1/2 cup ammonia) 1/4 corn meal does not seem to be sealing as well as my first mix which was missing the ammonia and corn meal....but if it stays liquid longer in tire I can live with that.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

It's been a really painful experience to try and find propylene glycol where I live, since the proliferation of electronic cigarettes the electronic DIY smokers seem to have exhausted every available stock, plus every time I try to order it I receive that look "I know what you want it for..." that make me feel like part of some weird "electronic smoke MAFIA" leaving me with online orders from ebay or amazon as the only choice left.

On the other hand Glycerol is ready available and its very cheap, as anyone ever used that one instead of PG?

I'm asking because of eurotrash post 1355


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

FMCurto said:


> It's been a really painful experience to try and find propylene glycol where I live, since the proliferation of electronic cigarettes the electronic DIY smokers seem to have exhausted every available stock, plus every time I try to order it I receive that look "I know what you want it for..." that make me feel like part of some weird "electronic smoke MAFIA" leaving me with online orders from ebay or amazon as the only choice left.
> 
> On the other hand Glycerol is ready available and its very cheap, as anyone ever used that one instead of PG?
> 
> I'm asking because of eurotrash post 1355


^wow, blast to the past on that link! Very timely too...

Debating what two mixes to try next season.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

This is after 3 months with a batch that's basically Eurotrash666's OSS recipe but with rubber crumb, xantham gum, and a little cornmeal. As you can see its no longer liquid , and coating the tire in a pretty thick layer. 
Will def skip the xantham gum on the next round, and the rubber crumb I bought at Hobby Lobby seems too big to really do much good.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Think I'll have a go with glycerol , PG is really hard to get here and every anti-freeze I've seen use PE.
Just one other question: I'm assuming post #2332 is the latest compilation of recipes and I'm wondering when people reefer to Ammonia is it the house cleaning type? If I'm not mistaken that is usually 3 to 5%, the reason I'm asking is because I got straight Ammonia diluted at 25%.

Ty.


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## skikarl (Sep 7, 2013)

#2332 is like 7 different mixes lol. The general consensus is that xantham gum is not needed/does not help. And we mostly use cleaning grade. 25% is nasty. Use maybe a table spoon. 

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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

As for chunkculators (read fibers): as anyone ever considerer or used brush strands?Like the ones from cosmetic or make-up brushes?
They shouldn't gang up or clog together in liquid too much.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

FMCurto said:


> As for chunkculators (read fibers): as anyone ever considerer or used brush strands?Like the ones from cosmetic or make-up brushes?
> They shouldn't gang up or clog together in liquid too much.


I think it's been suggested before, but I don't recall any one actually trying it and reporting the results. Seems like that would be a stiffer and larger diameter fiber than what's used in the commercial stuff....don't know if that's good or bad.


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## lazbone (Dec 15, 2013)

Has anyone else noticed the price of liquid latex has jumped over the last 10 years?

I just use stan's with some straight liquid latex to thicken it up. Though I have wondered about using eraser dust to help the sealing properties. I remember using this stuff in Jr High drafting class.

Soft eraser/eraser crumbs


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

If my tires are still loosing air over the course of a day, and lots of little seeping out if the sidewalls, should I simply add more sealant mix (WSS) or actually use more latex ?


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## flomaster (Feb 11, 2014)

thuren said:


> My latest mix feels PERFECT!
> 
> Did a 48hour "skin test" compared to Stan's, and they feel almost identical It is VERY watery just like Stan's. I'm about 20% latex. My goal is to try less latex with extra Ammonia, to try and keep the cornmeal active inside the tire. Will report back after a few weeks of use. I'll be giving some friends the mix to try themselves also.
> 
> ...


So I plan on mixing up the recipe above provided by Thuren, my only questing is this.... I haven't bought Stans before so therefor I don't have a "Scoop" I hear its a 2oz scoop I assume that is 2oz by volume like a shot of alcohol is. Now when it says 2.5 scoops of Cornmeal how much by weight is that, can I just take a 2oz shot glass and fill it 2.5 times and use that?

maybe my LBS has some extra scoops the are willing to kick down.

-=Jason=-



David C said:


> If my tires are still loosing air over the course of a day, and lots of little seeping out if the sidewalls, should I simply add more sealant mix (WSS) or actually use more latex ?


from reading this entire thread and doing my research I seems you might want to build up a "skin" on the sidewall. Once that "skin" is built up the weeping of magic elixir should stop. some recipes work better than others with sidewall weepage.

-=Jason=-


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The original WSS v1 weeped from my Control-Casing Specy tires like CRAZY. My new OSS (Stan's clone) has ZERO weeping on the same tire. I am convicned its due to the Slime or possibly the RV anti-freeze additives.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Ha, well I just opened the tires and guess what, a nice skin all around, but barely moist. Now I know why the tires were not holding air for long. I just pour another 4oz of sealant in and brushed latex on the rim bead. Holds 40lbs just fine now 

"Skin" of the front tire :








Sealant refill of the front :








Weird grain/powder looking depot on the rear tire :








Skin of rear tire :








Sealant refill in the rear :


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^That's pretty impressive, are those framing screws?


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

They are button head M3x8mm class 12.9 steel alloy in black oil finish. About 116 in each tire adds as little as 50g. So far they are way more durable than sheet metal screws and very effective.

The WSS mix has proven to work great so far for my needs.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Do the screws have a sharp point or a drill point?


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

They are flat bolt tips. I too was skeptical about the "bite" performance of square tips vs sharp sheet metal tips, but turns out they is pretty much no difference and I find the s tips to be more durable and make for a stiffer stud.

Here's my front commuter tire with M4x10mm bolts :


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Ah... nice, makes sense now.


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

Yup. Running them tubeless on my XC bike really made a world of difference with not having to run a tire liner to protect the inner tube and also drop the weight of said liner and tube, plus it's so much drool haha. Snow rides are pretty dope.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Do you drill the holes, or just some how push them through?


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## flomaster (Feb 11, 2014)

> My latest mix feels PERFECT!
> 
> Did a 48hour "skin test" compared to Stan's, and they feel almost identical It is VERY watery just like Stan's. I'm about 20% latex. My goal is to try less latex with extra Ammonia, to try and keep the cornmeal active inside the tire. Will report back after a few weeks of use. I'll be giving some friends the mix to try themselves also.
> 
> ...





flomaster said:


> So I plan on mixing up the recipe above provided by Thuren, my only questing is this.... I haven't bought Stans before so therefor I don't have a "Scoop" I hear its a 2oz scoop I assume that is 2oz by volume like a shot of alcohol is. Now when it says 2.5 scoops of Cornmeal how much by weight is that, can I just take a 2oz shot glass and fill it 2.5 times and use that?
> 
> maybe my LBS has some extra scoops the are willing to kick down.
> 
> -=Jason=-


What is the proper mixing order of the above elixir? My mild builder was hella hard to come by and I don't want to screw this up. I have seen people adding latex first and last.

-=Jason=-

Tapped via TapaCrap from my HTC One Google Edition running on SinLessROM GE 6.2.0


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## David C (May 25, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> Do you drill the holes, or just some how push them through?


I drilled the holes first.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

flomaster said:


> What is the proper mixing order of the above elixir? My mild builder was hella hard to come by and I don't want to screw this up. I have seen people adding latex first and last.
> 
> -=Jason=-


Thick to thin, or thin to thick. Either approach seems to work. I start thick, but since I'm using slime in my mix that's next. If you're using that recipe I'd do it in the order it's listed.

Also, relax. All measurements used are by volume. I've never seen anyone go by mass.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

Just don't mix latex with straight PG, or PG that has recently been mixed with water because there's a reaction between the PG and water that takes place that needs to run it's course before you add the latex, or else you'll get instant Giganta-booger. What I'm doing, following others recommendations, that is working well, is premixing water and PG, and water and ammonia, and letting them both rest for a while before mixing them with the latex.


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## flomaster (Feb 11, 2014)

wadester said:


> Thick to thin, or thin to thick. Either approach seems to work. I start thick, but since I'm using slime in my mix that's next. If you're using that recipe I'd do it in the order it's listed.
> 
> Also, relax. All measurements used are by volume. I've never seen anyone go by mass.


I only reason im asking is because I've read posts by people whom have mixed in the wrong order and ended up with a batch of elixir that coagulated and was trash.

I scored some red solo cup 2oz mini "Shot" glasses from wally world last night while buying my ammonia so that will be my "stans scoop" I'll use to measure my cornmeal with and elixir when putting it into the tire.

-=Jason=-


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## flomaster (Feb 11, 2014)

well I mixed up my elixir and all seemed to be well. I added 4oz to each wheel and aired it up with a compressor. there was slight weapage from the sidewall of my front tire and nothing from the rear. I took a 6 mile ride Saturday and all seemed to be well until This Morning (Monday) the rear tire was completely flat and the tire didn't seem to be seated on that "shelf". the front tire was very low on psi but the beads were seated I think. 

could it be a bad valve seat, tape job, or are my tires and rims just not compatible. Im rocking Bontrager rims that came stock on my 2011 TREK Cobia Garry Fisher edition. 

-=Jason=-


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^You could of put it away with a slow leak, and the sealant didn't have a chance to work. I'd check that you still have fluid, air it up again and check results.


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## flomaster (Feb 11, 2014)

ElwoodT said:


> ^^You could of put it away with a slow leak, and the sealant didn't have a chance to work. I'd check that you still have fluid, air it up again and check results.


ok, sounds good. I did for a 6 mile ride after putting the elixir in it I figured that would have plugged up any leaks I had. my tape job might be to blame me thinks

-=Jason=-


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^right, but what about a goat head that got kicked off after you ride (typical around here certain time of the year).


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## flomaster (Feb 11, 2014)

ElwoodT said:


> ^^right, but what about a goat head that got kicked off after you ride (typical around here certain time of the year).


im going to take apart the wheels and re-tape with Gorilla tape and install my new Sharder Valve Stems ala this thread here:

http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/threaded-schrader-valve-ghetto-tubeless-621638-5.html#post11029553



flomaster said:


> Tapped via TapaCrap from my HTC One Google Edition running on SinLessROM GE 6.2.0


 I wish I knew of these stems in the beginning. because Presta valves are NOT what I recommend. my tire gauges dont work with them, my air chucks for the compressor don't work for them, the valve stems break easily. with Shrader you can fill up almost anywhere or buy a valve stem nearly anywhere.

-=Jason=-


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## Burt4x4 (Feb 21, 2013)

flomaster said:


> im going to take apart the wheels and re-tape with Gorilla tape and install my new Sharder Valve Stems ala this thread here:
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/threaded-schrader-valve-ghetto-tubeless-621638-5.html#post11029553
> 
> ...


OMG!! YYYEEEEEeeeeeeHHHAA!
The MAIN reason I have not gone tubeless = I HATE presta valve blllaaahhhh

Just got this off 949racing.com :
"Lightweight CNC aluminum alloy valves. These are top nut style to protect the valve from being damaged or unthreaded during mounting of stiff race tires. Less than half the weight of steel valves. Will not rust. Black anodized. Laser etched 949 logo reputed to be worth 3hp, no really.

Also works for mountain bike tubeless conversions

Free shipping to USA only."

GREAT...looks like I might have to play with this mod next..

So whats up with "cutting" it?....guess I could read that AZ post...
Thanks for putting this here.


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## flomaster (Feb 11, 2014)

Burt4x4 said:


> OMG!! YYYEEEEEeeeeeeHHHAA!
> The MAIN reason I have not gone tubeless = I HATE presta valve blllaaahhhh
> 
> Just got this off 949racing.com :
> ...


Instead of a thin silver nut like the presta valves have on the outside of the rim these have a longer shaft that may or may not need to be cut shorter. you can use a hand saw or dremel tool to do this.

in the below photo you can see the longer nut vs a nut that has been cut shorter.






















-=Jason=-


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## Burt4x4 (Feb 21, 2013)

KIckAss! Thanks Bro!
Easy peasy, already got my shipping number emailed = FAST
They are probly gonna beat my Schwalble ThunderBurt that is shipping from Germany LOL
I will be going tubless with Purgatory 2.3 Grid front/ThunderBurt 2.1 Snakeskin rear.
Thanks again
Burt


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## arphaxhad (Apr 17, 2008)

Your local motorcycle/atv shop throws lots of these out every week. They work great for a tape and valve stem tubeless setup if you have a pathological aversion to Presta


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I know one thing for sure. This THIN batch is not impressive at all. If this is how "good" the standard of Stan's performs then I'm surprised he ever made it outta his garage. I've had several punctures and my brew will just shoot out the hole for 5 or more seconds. And my mix has twice as much latex as everyone else. I'm sticking to my theory that thicker is better.

This batch:
OSS v1f
16 oz PG
26 oz RO water
32 oz latex
4 oz ammonia

~ Mix PG, Water, ammonia in paint can. Stir and sit a minute or two.
~ Add Latex. Stir.
~ Add Dane Hair. Stir.
~ Add ¼ cup Rubber Crumb. Stir.
~ Add Dane Hair. Stir.
~ Add ¼ cup Rubber Crumb. Stir.

Way too thin and ineffective. Never had so many failures with WSS or my earlier, thicker OSS versions. YMMV... :thumbsup:


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

flomaster said:


> im going to take apart the wheels and re-tape with Gorilla tape and install my new Sharder Valve Stems ala this thread here:
> 
> http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/threaded-schrader-valve-ghetto-tubeless-621638-5.html#post11029553
> 
> ...


And for 99cents you can buy an adaptor that screws on your presta valve and will let you use all of these aforementioned gadgets

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

big0mike said:


> I know one thing for sure. This THIN batch is not impressive at all. If this is how "good" the standard of Stan's performs then I'm surprised he ever made it outta his garage. I've had several punctures and my brew will just shoot out the hole for 5 or more seconds. And my mix has twice as much latex as everyone else. I'm sticking to my theory that thicker is better.
> 
> This batch:
> OSS v1f
> ...


Forget all the pooch hair and rubber crumb. Corn meal is where it's AT! YMMV haha!

edit: I just referenced my mixture(below), and let me just say, I was originally on your same page. I thought thicker was better, but I am not changing a THING from where I am now. Works SO good. I also think that the thinned out Latex actually HELPS it solidify, as the evaporation of the water going out the puncture, starts an instant hardening or something. I also originally thought more latex would be better, but I don't think it is.

36oz distilled water
28oz 98% Propylene Glycol
2oz 10% Ammonia 
16oz Liquid Latex
2.5 Stan's 2oz scooper of fine Cornmeal


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

If it is the shearing of the latex that causes it to solidify, then thicker would actually shear less. I have also been happier with thinner mixtures so far.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

+1 on thinner. especially for longevity during the hotter months.


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## synnie (Oct 14, 2006)

*Carbon wheels*

Any problems using these brews in a carbon wheelset??


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

This question has been answered at least twice before. No problems.


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## synnie (Oct 14, 2006)

yourdaguy said:


> This question has been answered at least twice before. No problems.


Thanks, I just started following this thread & haven't read all 118 pages yet, I found this thread accidently it is in a strange place 29er found it through tires & wheels


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Maybe I've just had a few months of **** luck 'cause thinner is doing nothing for me except make me nervous. This last puncture may be an anomaly as I've noticed it has stayed wet even after wiping it off and letting it sit. I'll have to check tomorrow morning to see if today's dirt stopped that. Still going back to thick, though...


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## jemlinus (Jul 27, 2008)

Does anybody know if there is a difference between Liquid Latex and Mold builder? I wonder if the quality difference affects the quality of sealant mix.


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## arphaxhad (Apr 17, 2008)

AFAIK they are the same. I have been using mold builder for 3 years now in a 1pt latex 2 part slime and 2 part PG mix that is easy to mix, quick sealing, and long lasting. Just looked at my tires that have not been ridden in 2 weeks and they have only lost 1psi.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I am having a hard time with those saying that that thinner mixes aren't effective; like Stan's or not....it works and works well for stopping leaks. My thin "Stan's clone" OSS mix seems to work just fine...admittedly we don't get tons of flats here though...this spring is time for me to mount up an old tire and get a board with some nails in it and test this out!


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Re-subscribing


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

TiGeo said:


> I am having a hard time with those saying that that thinner mixes aren't effective; like Stan's or not....it works and works well for stopping leaks. My thin "Stan's clone" OSS mix seems to work just fine...admittedly we don't get tons of flats here though...this spring is time for me to mount up an old tire and get a board with some nails in it and test this out!


Well for me by the time thin seals up I've lost too much pressure and need to add air. Stopping to add air with a mini pump is still a lot less annoying than changing a tube. I dont race, but if I did the black of quick sealing would be a concern. I will add that I'm 250lbs so perhaps with all the weight on the bike that is part of the problem but there are times when I get off the bike and just spin the wheel around and that doesn't seem to seal it quick either

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Its all a trade-off - the original WSS was fairly thick and seemed to seal well but it would coagulate and not move well in the tire after a short time (mine at least)...go too thin and apparently you have to slower seal time but it stays liquidy longer. Just need to figure out what you want I suppose.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

My thin mix seals fast. Seems the corn meal gets in there and does it's job better than anything else tried so far. Now I'm using only corn meal as the "chunk", and the tires seal sets up so much faster, than everything else I tried in the past.


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## synnie (Oct 14, 2006)

thuren said:


> My thin mix seals fast. Seems the corn meal gets in there and does it's job better than anything else tried so far. Now I'm using only corn meal as the "chunk", and the tires seal sets up so much faster, than everything else I tried in the past.


What is your formula ingredients & measurements?


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Any kind soul would mind to repost the latest several OSS mixing versions? would be nice and very helpful (like post 2332).

Already have the components except xantham gum, that I'll skip according to the latest recipes, but I'm having a hard time figuring out the ratios and measurements mostly because I need to convert everything to ml, make out the ratios and then compare formulas on different pages


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

thuren said:


> Forget all the pooch hair and rubber crumb. Corn meal is where it's AT! YMMV haha!
> 
> edit: I just referenced my mixture(below), and let me just say, I was originally on your same page. I thought thicker was better, but I am not changing a THING from where I am now. Works SO good. I also think that the thinned out Latex actually HELPS it solidify, as the evaporation of the water going out the puncture, starts an instant hardening or something. I also originally thought more latex would be better, but I don't think it is.
> 
> ...


I like the sound of this mix and am due to mix up a batch.

Thing is that I still have a fair amount of the ATV Slime/sealant. Not sure of all the ingredients in that but I'm thinking of simply adding the Slime in a 1:2 ratio to your brew.

Thoughts?


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

After getting tired of comparing formulas decided to plunge in:

1 part Liquid Latex.
2 part Glycerol (straight Glycerol as here is hard to find straight PE ou PG and its too expensive)
2 part H2O (Destiled water)

added 1/100 part (of the above) of straight Amonia (@25%)

Since its my first batch just mixed enough (500ml about 17oz) to keep math simple.

As recommend before, mixed half the water with Glycol and let it rest for some time while in a separate container I was mixing the other half of water with Latex and Ammonia,then mixed the 2 halves. No problems there.


Latex is labelled as "High Purity/Low toxicity rating - low ammonia prevulcanized natural rubber latex" and does look a bit watery.Even so it had a strong smell of ammonia.

It was also my first conversion,and went smoothly (on 2nd atempt) with a floor pump after I saw on youtube a tip to seat the bed first with tyre levers before inflating.
Tyre is a Continental Rubber Queen (Trail King now) Protection.Used 100ml to keep it safe but spilled a bit so should be left around 80ml (2.7oz) in tyre.

Almost no whipping till now,just a bit close to the rim but I think its expected.

Will try a wire Moutain King tomorrow  and will report back in a few weeks.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Miker J said:


> I like the sound of this mix and am due to mix up a batch.
> 
> Thing is that I still have a fair amount of the ATV Slime/sealant. Not sure of all the ingredients in that but I'm thinking of simply adding the Slime in a 1:2 ratio to your brew.
> 
> Thoughts?


You could substitute slime for 1/2 the PG and leave out some or all of the cornmeal.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

thuren said:


> My thin mix seals fast. Seems the corn meal gets in there and does it's job better than anything else tried so far. Now I'm using only corn meal as the "chunk", and the tires seal sets up so much faster, than everything else I tried in the past.


I like the idea of a thinner mix, but with more chunks like cornmeal, like Thuren's. Thicker brew doesn't seem to flow to the punctures as quickly as you'd need them.

Thuren's seems pretty good. See above for his brew.

What I'm wondering is why so much PG in relation to water? PG is not cheap. Does it do anything more than prevent freezing? Otherwise, why not just up the waterG ratio?

Taking this a bit further...

I've found the good ATV Slime pretty cheap at Walmart for the gallon containers. Occasionally it goes on sale. I hear this is just latex, PG, chunks, and probably some water. Probably ammonia in there too if my nose remembers correctly.

Both PG and latex is not cheap and if those are built right into the Slime and that can be had on sale...

Assuming one could find the good ATV slime cheap any reason to not just water it down? Maybe add some cornmeal after its thinned out to keep a good liquid:chunk ratio.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Miker J said:


> What I'm wondering is why so much PG in relation to water? PG is not cheap. Does it do anything more than prevent freezing? Otherwise, why not just up the waterG ratio?


The glycol (ethylene or propylene) is present in the mix because it has very low vapor pressure - meaning that it evaporates very slowly, keeping the mix liquid longer. The antifreeze aspect is just icing on the cake. I do note that glycol by itself is not as good as glycol/water mix, but all the info on varying mixtures of glycol/water is in terms of antifreezing or heat absorption capacity, not vapor pressure.



Miker J said:


> I've found the good ATV Slime pretty cheap at Walmart for the gallon containers. Occasionally it goes on sale. I hear this is just latex, PG, chunks, and probably some water. Probably ammonia in there too if my nose remembers correctly.


The only Slime that has ammonia is Slime Pro. ATV slime is just water/PG/chunks.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

wadester said:


> The glycol (ethylene or propylene) is present in the mix because it has very low vapor pressure - meaning that it evaporates very slowly, keeping the mix liquid longer. The antifreeze aspect is just icing on the cake. I do note that glycol by itself is not as good as glycol/water mix, but all the info on varying mixtures of glycol/water is in terms of antifreezing or heat absorption capacity, not vapor pressure.
> 
> The only Slime that has ammonia is Slime Pro. ATV slime is just water/PG/chunks.


Thanks.

So, regarding the PG... Since I live in the cool, damp NE, and dried sealant is rarely a problem, the 2:1, water to PG, works well for me. Maybe I can push it to a 3:1 and see how it goes. PG is a relative pain to procure, and more expensive, compared to distilled water.

Latex is very expensive as well, relatively speaking. I like that Thuren has had luck with relatively less in his mix. Maybe the corn meal helps to compensate.

I do find when I have a larger tire tear, thicker brew does not rush to the rescue as quickly as I'd like. A thicker brew takes its time to ooze on down to the hole and by that time a lot of air pressure is lost.

So, maybe a thinner brew with less of the higher cost ingredients might be good.

Turns out the wife had an old bag of corn meal stuck in the back of a cabinet.

As far as Slime goes. The stuff I used is just "Slime Tire Sealant", and no ammonia smell now that I checked. Pretty thick and I doubt water, PG, and chunks would have done that alone. What is making it thick? Is there not latex in the Slime? I'd like to know what's in the stuff so when I use it as a base I have an idea of what I'm staring with.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Only Slime Pro has latex. I live about 20 miles from the Slime headquarters. They sponsor some local racers and pass samples on to other locals who have been riding buddies for many years. Wadester posted the Slime MSDS early in the thread I think. Slime Pro is an attempt to imitate Stans with enough PG to make it green to keep the loyal Slime users.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Miker J said:


> So, regarding the PG... Since I live in the cool, damp NE, and dried sealant is rarely a problem, the 2:1, water to PG, works well for me. Maybe I can push it to a 3:1 and see how it goes. PG is a relative pain to procure, and more expensive, compared to distilled water.


You have a good point here. Reducing the amount of PG a bit shouldn't hurt things - but be sure to let us know if you're still getting the same life out of your water-rich mix.



Miker J said:


> As far as Slime goes. The stuff I used is just "Slime Tire Sealant", and no ammonia smell now that I checked. Pretty thick and I doubt water, PG, and chunks would have done that alone. What is making it thick? Is there not latex in the Slime? I'd like to know what's in the stuff so when I use it as a base I have an idea of what I'm starting with.


I know from experimenting with dryer lint that adding fibers really does change the mix. Try adding dryer lint to water and see for yourself how it changes from, well, water - to a much more viscous mix with fiber added. Drain off some of the Slime fluid and compare it to PG by feel - not much difference.

I also recall the good old days when the MSDS gave all the (nonproprietary) ingredients. Nowadays they only list "hazardous" stuff. Your "Slime Tire Sealant" is completely nontoxic, so there is nothing on there at all now. I recall from research I did way back when that many fiber based tire sealants have some kind of ingredient to serve the same purpose as latex - but that was considered "proprietary", and was a very small %. The old "Flat Pruf" that I used as a kid back in the 70's was brown and dried into a sticky gunk - it also used cellulose as the fiber/chunks -basically chewed up paper.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Miker J said:


> What I'm wondering is why so much PG in relation to water? PG is not cheap.





eurotrash666 said:


> -Propylene glycol is an alcohol that inhibits evaporation, is a slight surfactant, and no doubt has a positive stabilizing effect on the emulsion. Antifreeze, too. You guys already know this. You could also use glycerol, or ethylene glycol, but propylene glycol is really the most suitable.


Wikipedia:



> Like ethylene glycol and propylene glycol, glycerol is a non-ionic kosmotrope that forms strong hydrogen bonds with water molecules, competing with water-water hydrogen bonds. This disrupts the crystal lattice formation of ice unless the temperature is significantly lowered. The minimum freezing point temperature is at about −36 °F / −37.8 °C corresponding to 70% glycerol in water.
> 
> Glycerol was historically used as an anti-freeze for automotive applications before being replaced by ethylene glycol, which has a lower freezing point. While the minimum freezing point of a glycerol-water mixture is higher than an ethylene glycol-water mixture, glycerol is not toxic and is being re-examined for use in automotive applications.


I'm not a chemist but apart the lower freezing point of PG and Glycerol being more "thick" think the role they play (lower evaporation) is about the same.Difference is Glycerol (aka Glycerine) costs me about 5 times less and is readily available around the corner.
Since sub zero temperatures aren't really a problem where I live its a no-brainer .

Failed at converting the wire tyre because couldn't seat it with tyre levers but maybe will try later with a compressor.

X-King and Rubber Queen are holding perfectly with a very small air loss, maybe 1 to 1.5 psi/day.
Both tyres are 2.2 and been running around 29 psi back (XK) and 21 psi front (RQ) over rocky terrain with no burps,but I'm not very aggressive.


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## djandyszontagh (Apr 4, 2007)

On my girl friends bike she has been using slime pro for over two years. She still hasn't replaced it. I use stans on my bike and it dries up in 3 months. I am about to switch to slime pro.


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## djandyszontagh (Apr 4, 2007)

On my girl friends bike she has been using slime pro for over two years. She still hasn't replaced it. I use stans on my bike and it dries up in 3 months. I am about to switch to slime pro.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

Has she gotten any flats tho? How do you know its not all dried up in there?

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

djandyszontagh said:


> On my girl friends bike she has been using slime pro for over two years. She still hasn't replaced it. I use stans on my bike and it dries up in 3 months. I am about to switch to slime pro.


^^spambot


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## djandyszontagh (Apr 4, 2007)

No flats. And and it's the same juice she has in there for over 2 years.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

djandyszontagh said:


> No flats. And and it's the same juice she has in there for over 2 years.


So if she hasn't had any punctures you dont know if the slime is working or not. Its probably all dried up in there. I personally think it still provides protection tho. I've used slime and when iwen to swap tires a couple months later it was a solid latex film around the entire tire. I suspect that if any thing punctured the tire the latex barrier stayed in tact and thus I didn't lose air.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## djandyszontagh (Apr 4, 2007)

How long did the Slime Pro last u? I am buying Slime Pro next. So i can try it out. I have used Stans, DT Swiss, and Bontrieger Sealant.


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## brotherpaidjo (Jun 17, 2013)

djandyszontagh said:


> On my girl friends bike she has been using slime pro for over two years. She still hasn't replaced it. I use stans on my bike and it dries up in 3 months. I am about to switch to slime pro.


May I know what kind of weather you're in? I live in the tropic, been using stan's for over a year and remain liquid. However I recently installed a set of new tires, one of them have a leak on the sidewall and still doesn't seal properly. Im eager to try slime pro now, and see if seal better.


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

Wow, 120 pages and all kinds of recipes. I read through a lot but didn't see a recipe for half Stan's and half Slime? Does anyone run this brew and if so, how does it perform?? I live in southwestern AZ high country and wonder if this would be worth trying?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Try it... I'm sure it will work. Curious as to what the point would be?


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

bsieb said:


> ^Try it... I'm sure it will work. Curious as to what the point would be?


I thought it might make the formula last longer before drying out. Stan's seems to dry out very fast here and the slime does not. Maybe mixing them might be a good middle ground??


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## Robg68 (Oct 27, 2013)

raven1911 said:


> Wow, 120 pages and all kinds of recipes. I read through a lot but didn't see a recipe for half Stan's and half Slime? Does anyone run this brew and if so, how does it perform?? I live in southwestern AZ high country and wonder if this would be worth trying?


I actually just tried this about 3 weeks ago. I haven't ridden the bike since but I checked the tires yesterday and they're still holding air. It's been to cold to ride.

Bikes I currently have. 2014 Trek Fuel EX 8 29er. 2013 Trek Mamba 29er.


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## cpfitness (Nov 19, 2012)

I've mixed them since that was what I've had on hand. The slime is very heavy and the 2 don't really mix together at all

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

Would a little distilled water work in the mix then or should I not try it at all??


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## brotherpaidjo (Jun 17, 2013)

cpfitness said:


> I've mixed them since that was what I've had on hand. The slime is very heavy and the 2 don't really mix together at all
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


Ah nice to know, was just about to try...


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I was running out of mix about 2 weeks ago (not Stans, but the current no xantham gum mix) and I still had a little Slime left over from a long time ago. So in order to do 2 more tires, I mixed it. First of all I had major green weeping just like in the old days Even 3 or 4 days later.

2nd of all, our street is completely broken up after this bad winter and I was doing a little test ride and one of the boulders of asphalt put a half inch cut in the sidewall about 4 days ago. I took the tire off and the mixture was already clumpy after aprox 1 week and looked like it separated to some extent. The other tire is still holding air even though both tires seemed to take longer to seal and the weeping has mostly stopped. But; I don't know about mixing Slime with Stans, but mixing Slime with our current mix is a fail as far as I am concerned.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Mixing Stans and Slime is combining two proprietary concoctions that may or may not get along, and since neither is cheap, what's the point other than in an emergency? WSS is easy to mix and far less expensive. If I HAD to purchase some sealant, I would probably buy SlimePro, I've heard it lasts two years.


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

I think I will abandon the idea of mixing the two. I saw Thurens recipe and want I try that because I can get all the ingredients in my area fairly quickly. Anyone know the order you have to mix things in? I have heard thin to thick but I don't think that is enough info. Thurens recipe is mould builder, antifreeze, cornmeal, distilled water and ammonia.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I mix thin to thick and shake well before adding the latex. My reasoning is that the mix is at it's full dilution when I add the latex. The main thing is to not mix the latex and the pg/antifreeze directly.


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

For those using 10% ammonia solution, are you just diluting regular ammonia with distilled water to reach a 10% solution??


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

raven1911 said:


> For those using 10% ammonia solution, are you just diluting regular ammonia with distilled water to reach a 10% solution??


Pure ammonia is nasty, toxic stuff - only available in pressure bottles at gas supply stores and farm supply warehouses. The ammonia you can buy at the store? It's already diluted with water. 5-10% ammonia depending on brand.


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

wadester said:


> Pure ammonia is nasty, toxic stuff - only available in pressure bottles at gas supply stores and farm supply warehouses. The ammonia you can buy at the store? It's already diluted with water. 5-10% ammonia depending on brand.


OK so if I buy a generic gallon bottle of ammonia at Wally World its already 10%? It doesn't say its concentration on the container.


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

Also, how are most of you storing your brew? I was thinking canning jars just because they seal well.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I use an old Slime bottle. I have used a mason jar as well. Anything that seals well. I like the Slime bottle b/c I can flip it over and let the "crystals" settle to the bottom before squirting it into the Stan's scooper. An old Stan's bottle would work well too.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Big honkin' pickle jar.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Where are you guys getting latex these days? Still at Michaels or Hobby Lobby?


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

PHeller said:


> Where are you guys getting latex these days? Still at Michaels or Hobby Lobby?


I just got mine at Hobby Lobby yesterday. I got the app on my phone and it had a 40% off coupon. Got it for $12. I calculated I could make about 82 oz of brew for $20. That's about 25 cents an ounce verses 75 cents for Stan's. I have yet to make it but will attempt tonight. Hopefully all goes well.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

No Hobby Lobby near me, although there is a Conestoga Wood Cases. 

Michaels and Ac Moore is the local craft store. I can actually ride to that one.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I need to make another batch soon and will add the bit of ammonia this time to my Stan's clone.


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

TiGeo said:


> I need to make another batch soon and will add the bit of ammonia this time to my Stan's clone.


Are you using straight store bought cleaning ammonia or do you dilute it?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I was just going to use the basic ammonia you buy in the store un-diluted..its already diluted to ~10%.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I use a clear 90-ish oz orange juice jug, which holds the 80-ish oz batches I make. I use a funnel made out of a flat sided windex or similar bottle to pour the ingredients into the OJ jug. Makes it easy to pour directly into the tire for topping off the puddle.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Don't discount the chunks (if you use one of the cornmeal blends) - they settle to the bottom of your container so you need to make sure you get them into your tire - best to have a container with a spout for these blends.


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

Well a successful venture last night! I made Thurens brew and it looks awesome and I love the consistency! Looks just like Stan's. Can't wait to try it out!


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Hmm. I wrote a post last night - but I don't see it here. So the short version is:

Wally (and most other store brands) of clear ammonia are 2-3% according to mfg KIK custom products MSDS.

For containers, I've used both 1 gallon glass pickle jar and the 2 1/2 qt size. Not enough room in the 2 1/2 qt to shake my 5 pint batch of sealant. Someone recommended the Rubbermaid MixerMate pitcher a while back:









No noticeable evaporation, shakes easy with handle, unscrew lid to mix a new batch, pop tab to pour or insert injector syringe hose. They make 3 qt, which would be perfect - but I couldn't find them for cheap. Gallon size for less than $5 at Wally, Works fine.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Guys...lets be fair...the Stan's clone blend is really a Tigeo/Thuren blend...I like my credit :thumbsup:

Thuren took my blend (that I stole from the old Stan's patent) and added ammonia to it. Please correct me if I am wrong and I will take my internet forum lashing.


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

TiGeo said:


> Guys...lets be fair...the Stan's clone blend is really a Tigeo/Thuren blend...I like my credit :thumbsup:
> 
> Thuren took my blend (that I stole from the old Stan's patent) and added ammonia to it. Please correct me if I am wrong and I will take my internet forum lashing.


I will stand corrected 😉. I only said Thurens brew because that's the exact recipe I used but thanks for your contribution to it TiGeo! I hope it works as good as it looks!!


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

Btw, I don't know if it's been discussed in other threads but I was cleaning out my bottle of orange seal last night and all it is is latex and some silver glitter. 16oz for $16. Crazy prices we pay but NO MORE! I will be making my own from now on!


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## ian0789 (Jul 15, 2013)

I just made up a batch of sealant. 

8oz Mold Builder 
8oz Slime
16oz RV antifreeze 

Had a rubber made container jug and dumped it in to store it / mix it. I just took an old set of BMX 20 tubes and did the split tube method on my 26 Full Suspension. I bought a bunch of extra tubes to do my other wheel sets but figured let me try these out since they are used and old. Amazing how a tube in a tire that is shot is still in great shape =P. 

So I am not a tubeless tire guy but I do like to tinker. I figured what the heck let me see what its all about and maybe it will prove me wrong. I get 32oz stans for 12 bucks so while this is still a little cheaper to make my own I did have real stans sitting in my room. I figured what the heck if I am going to ghetto tubeless I might as well also go all out ghetto. So I just beaded up a set of Nashbar Senor Traction 2.1 tires to a set of Mavix 223 disc. Worked perfectly from what I can tell. Sealed up a small pin hole in the tire side wall and after a few shakes and sat on each side with 60psi in them they held. I dropped the PSI down and mounted up the tires to blast around the woods behind my house. Did a few big bunny hops to try and get them to burp but things are holding. Only thing left to do is trim the tube flaps and take it for a ride on the trails tomorrow.

Just wondering when your batch of homebrew fails do you know its fail off the bat or does it normally happen over night or when you are bombing a downhill and your tire blows off lol. Just wondering if my brew is working now it will also be working on duty tomorrow. Still going to bring the old tubes just as backup.


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

Cornmeal, cooked or uncooked? Sounds like cooked is the way to go based on most posts, but I'm sure some of you tried uncooked.

Also, has the cornmeal started going funky in the tire? I don't want to imagine cornmeal starting to grow mold and get nasty inside a tire.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Uncooked is basically a solid that is not dissolved by the sealant. I have no info on cooked.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

ian0789 said:


> Just wondering when your batch of homebrew fails do you know its fail off the bat or does it normally happen over night or when you are bombing a downhill and your tire blows off lol. Just wondering if my brew is working now it will also be working on duty tomorrow. Still going to bring the old tubes just as backup.


The sealant doesn't really go bad, it just dries up, so a foolproof method is to check the puddle of sealant in your tires by opening the bead and looking. If the puddle isn't 6" or so long, just top it off out of your jug of sealant. If you check once a month you won't run dry. Bringing tubes as a backup is wise if you are going far.


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

watts888 said:


> Cornmeal, cooked or uncooked? Sounds like cooked is the way to go based on most posts, but I'm sure some of you tried uncooked.
> 
> Also, has the cornmeal started going funky in the tire? I don't want to imagine cornmeal starting to grow mold and get nasty inside a tire.


I just bought regular white corn meal for $2 at my local Wally World. Works fine. I don't think it absorbs much, if any, fluid. It separates and you have to shake it well to mix it before you pour into your tire.


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## Volsfan (Dec 3, 2005)

Well I was hoping to look at this thread and find the best brew but after reading the first and seeing how many more pages there were I knew it would not be easy or that I had that much time.
Would love to get a review of maybe the top 3. Looks like it went from a crafted concossion to a food recipe. I 'm lost but would still love to know the answer. 
If anyone wants to copy and paste the top 3 for me, I would be much appreciative. 
Thank you in advance.


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

ian0789 said:


> I just made up a batch of sealant.
> 8oz Mold Builder
> 8oz Slime
> 16oz RV antifreeze
> ...


Please, tell us where. I've been paying around $22 per quart.

(tapa)


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## ian0789 (Jul 15, 2013)

Volsfan said:


> Well I was hoping to look at this thread and find the best brew but after reading the first and seeing how many more pages there were I knew it would not be easy or that I had that much time.
> Would love to get a review of maybe the top 3. Looks like it went from a crafted concossion to a food recipe. I 'm lost but would still love to know the answer.
> If anyone wants to copy and paste the top 3 for me, I would be much appreciative.
> Thank you in advance.


The one I used a few posts up is a well recommended brew and 3 out of five wheel sets done using split tube is working perfectly. The last two wheel sets I am waiting for tubes to be shipper or they would be finished. I even have real stans but I have been using this stuff with no fear . I was sceptical about the whole tubeless thing and making sealant but it works! No burps or sealant failing on my few rides but i still wanna get in a few more testing rides before I say good bye to tubes for sure. I still tossed a set of old tubes with the stans in my truck just in the event it goes sour and keep a new one in my pack

Give it a go everything is cheap and it will make 3x the amount of stans for like 20-25 bucks that's the price of one 32 once stans


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Volsfan said:


> Well I was hoping to look at this thread and find the best brew but after reading the first and seeing how many more pages there were I knew it would not be easy or that I had that much time.
> Would love to get a review of maybe the top 3. Looks like it went from a crafted concossion to a food recipe. I 'm lost but would still love to know the answer.
> If anyone wants to copy and paste the top 3 for me, I would be much appreciative.
> Thank you in advance.


So your time is more valuable than ours?

Here is mine:

BAMFS v. 2.0	
Latex	1 part
Propylene glycol	2.3 parts
Distilled water	2 parts
Cornmeal	2 tbs/batch


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

@Volsfan

Dont think there is a top 3 mostly because its down to individual preference, your local weather and availability of materials.
But it also took me a long time reading back trough this thread to figure this out so gonna try to give a few pointers:

I think you can safely assume a few basics:
If you ride in warm weather you should favour a thinner mix.
Corn Meal seems to be the chunkculator of choice this days but it will also work without.
Xantum Gum has been dropped by most.
Try to use pure materials. 
Tap water is a bad idea, use distilled if possible. 

WSS (Wade Secret Sauce) uses Slime, depending where you live could be hard to find.
OSS (Open Source Sealant) is basically:

-Water (to dilute the mix)
-Liquid Latex (Most important ingredient) - plugs the holes
-Propylene Glycol (or Ethylene glycol present in most anti-freeze liquids but if possible avoid them because they have anti-corrosion agents that can adversely affect the mix, or you can even use Glycerine if you're not riding sub-freezing temperatures) - is present to restrain evaporation and PG also restrains freezing.
-Ammonia (keeps Ph high and buffers the mix)

Hope this helps.


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## ian0789 (Jul 15, 2013)

Flyin_W said:


> Please, tell us where. I've been paying around $22 per quart.
> 
> (tapa)


Know someone with a catalog . My father can get similar stuff used for dirt bikes and atv's from his distributor and see how the stuff is in terms of weight / quality. It might be heavy duty but I can get it dirt cheap and test it.


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## cplagz (Jan 28, 2014)

Where are you guys getting ammonia from? In Australia it's very difficult to get. All I can find is cloudy ammonia (ammonia with soap added)


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

cplagz said:


> Where are you guys getting ammonia from? In Australia it's very difficult to get. All I can find is cloudy ammonia (ammonia with soap added)


Hmm. I'm using "clear" ammonia, but it's got soap added. It is clear - cloudy must mean more soap. I found a "wikihow" on how to go from concentrated ammonia water to dilute soapy style. They said: "Locate concentrate ammonia solution. It's readily available in supermarkets in the household cleaner sections of larger supermarkets in the US. Otherwise, try hardware shops and places that sell industrial cleaners. You will probably want to buy the smallest possible bottle since you won't need a lot. "

I see US hardware store "ACE" has 10% "janitorial strength" ammonia/water - MSDS does not mention "surfactant" or soap/detergent, so fairly pure.


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## cplagz (Jan 28, 2014)

Seems like it should be ok? 20g/L ammonia = 20% concentration?

This is the MSDS - https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b...duct/b9892088-23db-4791-92bd-971438c76afb.pdf

Ingredients CAS No Conc,% TWA (mg/m3
) STEL (mg/m3
) 
Ammonia 7664-41-7 20g/L 17 24 
Other non hazardous ingredients various 20g/L approx not set not set 
Water 7732-18-5 to 100 not set not set


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## raven1911 (Jul 14, 2011)

Deleted


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

cplagz said:


> Seems like it should be ok? 20g/L ammonia = 20% concentration?
> 
> This is the MSDS - https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b...duct/b9892088-23db-4791-92bd-971438c76afb.pdf


This is so typical of MSDS's. List the concentration in % but give a value in different units. I ain't gonna do the math, but yeah, probably 20% ammonia. But also, 20% "other nonhazardous etc." which is probably soap or some such. That's what's making it opaque.

Ok, so you're gonna dilute this stuff enuff to get down to 3ish% - so the soap will also go to that concentration. I recall trying soap/surfactant (Dawn dishsoap actually) and found no benenfit. But I don't recall if it loses you anything. Possible problems would be either premature coagulation or delayed coagulation. But if the stuff is cheap? Go for it, and report back!


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## cplagz (Jan 28, 2014)

wadester said:


> This is so typical of MSDS's. List the concentration in % but give a value in different units. I ain't gonna do the math, but yeah, probably 20% ammonia. But also, 20% "other nonhazardous etc." which is probably soap or some such. That's what's making it opaque.
> 
> Ok, so you're gonna dilute this stuff enuff to get down to 3ish% - so the soap will also go to that concentration. I recall trying soap/surfactant (Dawn dishsoap actually) and found no benenfit. But I don't recall if it loses you anything. Possible problems would be either premature coagulation or delayed coagulation. But if the stuff is cheap? Go for it, and report back!


Will do, thanks wadester.

Can't be any worse then Stans drying up every 6 weeks..... bloody hot/dry summer over here!


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

client_9 said:


> FYI - I cut up some thick nylon rope for matrix building "hairs"
> 
> These coarse bristles seem to be working great.


UPDATE: One year later.... The only problem w/ nylon bristles as chunks is they sometimes get jammed in the valve seals. So you have a slow leak at the valve until you remove the chunk. I'll try cornmeal as my chunk in my next batch.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

client_9 said:


> UPDATE: One year later.... The only problem w/ nylon bristles as chunks is they sometimes get jammed in the valve seals. So you have a slow leak at the valve until you remove the chunk. I'll try cornmeal as my chunk in my next batch.


WooHOO! Data point! So that sealant dose lasted a year? How many thorns in the tire, or did you check?


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## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

wadester said:


> WooHOO! Data point! So that sealant dose lasted a year? How many thorns in the tire, or did you check?


I'd estimate I topped off my tires twice. I run big tires (2.4 Ardent for example)
So they had way more than 2 ounces of sealant to begin with.

BTW, I was using this Eurotrash recipe:
_
"- Stir 1/4 tsp. xanthan gum into 1 oz PG
- Add 1.5 oz ammonia
- Stir in 1 cup 50/50 PG/DI water
- 1 cup liquid latex
- 1 cup 50/50 PG/DI water
- Chunks of choice
- Top off quart container with distilled water (about a cup) "_


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## Shrek1 (Aug 1, 2013)

I've been using TiGeo/Thuren(T/T) mix. The Ammonia I've sourced has "Surfecant"(probably soap) listed in it. I'm not concerned because I've always used a soap and water mix to lubricate the bead of the tire and some of this gets into the tire anyway. It never seemed to be an issue with the Stans and doesn't seem to be with the T/T.

BTW a gallon plastic milk jug will hold the 3 qt.(approx) mix that Thuren has posted. It seals well, is easy to shake and pour. Transfer it into old Stans, Orange Seal or Slime bottles that have a small spout so you can keep it inverted while you pour it into your 2 oz. scoop. Keeping the bottle inverted makes sure tha you'll get the white corn meal(mine is uncooked Polenta) into the tire.


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## cplagz (Jan 28, 2014)

Just saw this come up on Bikerumour ....


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

Shrek1 said:


> I've been using TiGeo/Thuren(T/T) mix...


Thanks for the good info. Could you please reference the post# that lists his mix?
This thread is a monster!
BTW I run Stan's in 3 wheelsets. Set up with 4 oz. then and add 2 oz. every 3 months, and am seeking a better / cheaper mix.


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## synnie (Oct 14, 2006)

*New Gorilla tape*

Just saw this at the store looks interesting it is clear & easier to cut for wider rims Gorilla Glue - Clear Tape


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

That looks great if they come out w/ 1". It looks like it is only available in 1.88" width currently. 


synnie said:


> Just saw this at the store looks interesting it is clear & easier to cut for wider rims Gorilla Glue - Clear Tape


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^I'd want to make sure it comes apart (hopefully w/out residue). Some of these repair tapes fuse together. I got away from using gorilla tape, because it took forever to clean and re-tape.


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## Shrek1 (Aug 1, 2013)

Flyin_W said:


> Thanks for the good info. Could you please reference the post# that lists his mix?
> This thread is a monster!
> BTW I run Stan's in 3 wheelsets. Set up with 4 oz. then and add 2 oz. every 3 months, and am seeking a better / cheaper mix.


# 2950


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

ElwoodT said:


> ^^I'd want to make sure it comes apart (hopefully w/out residue). Some of these repair tapes fuse together. I got away from using gorilla tape, because it took forever to clean and re-tape.


This tape leaves no residue:

Amazon.com: JVCC TPS-01 Light Duty Tensilized Polypropylene Strapping Tape: 1 in. x 60 yds. (Black): Home Improvement


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^I'm using this. I've got it on 3 wheels w/out any problems


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## synnie (Oct 14, 2006)

ElwoodT said:


> ^I'm using this. I've got it on 3 wheels w/out any problems


 Good to know I got a roll I am going to try as soon as I do a tire change


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

I've given up try to find cornmeal, the closest thing I've found to what's described here is Corn Semolina, I cant say for sure is its coarser or finer than cornmeal, also its only available raw.

Could someone try to compare both on the next supermarket trip?Assuming you could find corn semolina that is.

Kind of wondering if I would try to use it raw or maybe precook it myself. Say 2 or 3 min on boiling water?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Where are you that you can't find corn meal in a grocery store?


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## synnie (Oct 14, 2006)

I've given up try to find cornmeal, the closest thing I've found to what's described here is Corn Semolina, I cant say for sure is its coarser or finer than cornmeal, also its only available raw.

Could someone try to compare both on the next supermarket trip?Assuming you could find corn semolina that is.

I found it in the baking section around the flour stuff


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## ric426 (Jul 13, 2007)

Point of interest: I just opened up a tire (Specialized Captain control 2bliss) that I mounted about 1.5 years ago using one of the earlier OSS recipes. The wheel hadn't been used in about that long and was hanging in my pole barn for a summer and two winters. What I found was no undue coagulation or space boogers, some slight separation and just slight thickening. The tire still had some air in it too. I had painted the inside with Shoe Goo thinned with toluene, but I don't know if that affected the results or not. 

Since I only have 1 functional bike I'm still using that first batch and I only made half as much as the recipe calls for! The latex will probably be all dried up by the time I get around to mixing some more.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

TiGeo said:


> Where are you that you can't find corn meal in a grocery store?


In a country where Corn isn't so heavily subsidized that you need to find all sorts of applications for it just because its damn cheap. 

Seriously: I can find corn flower and different sorts of corn, only that particular one doesnt seem to be commercialized here.But my previous comment might not be too far from truth, I guess you could use other different type of cereals but why?At least in the States is so damn cheap, that's most likely the reason why its used in Stans.

Anyway,precooked is the way to go?I will try to boil Corn Semolina for 2 or 3 min to see how it goes.BTW: th eone I bought does look a lot like the image for Corn Meal on wikipedia: Cornmeal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And for some baking uses seems you can use one instead of the other:


> In baking
> As an alternative to corn meal, semolina can be used to flour the baking surface to prevent sticking


Why not for tires then?

You say tomatos...


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## mjb123 (May 6, 2011)

Try looking for polenta, at least if you are in Australia.....

Found mine next to the flour in the baking section



FMCurto said:


> I've given up try to find cornmeal, the closest thing I've found to what's described here is Corn Semolina, I cant say for sure is its coarser or finer than cornmeal, also its only available raw.
> 
> Could someone try to compare both on the next supermarket trip?Assuming you could find corn semolina that is.
> 
> Kind of wondering if I would try to use it raw or maybe precook it myself. Say 2 or 3 min on boiling water?


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## DirtDummy (Aug 22, 2005)

Quick question: why DI water - what's wrong with tap?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The minerals can cause boogers to appear.


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## DirtDummy (Aug 22, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> The minerals can cause boogers to appear.


Got it - thanks.


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## Rhialto (Oct 21, 2009)

I was having some tubeless issues a while back with punctures not sealing out on the trail and I was close to ditching it all and going back to tubes. Instead I thought I would see if anyone else had similar experiences and I came across this thread, which I have read from start to end. I am very curious about sealant chemistry, in particular eurotrash's contributions (thanks eurotrash!) and the development of OSS.

A friend and I recently got all the ingredients together for a batch except for the cornmeal and we deliberately omitted the xantham gum based on discussions on the thread. Here's what we mixed up:

OSS-simple variant

300 ml propylene glycol USP/EP 99% (ebay)
450 ml water (car battery topup water) (Halfords)
300 ml liquid latex (ebay)
50 ml household ammonia (clear, approx 10%) (ebay)

Basically, we diluted the ammonia in half the water, diluted the PG in the other half and then mixed the two dilutions adding the latex at the end. I was concerned about the latex polymerizing prematurely due to the haphazard mixing process but it was fine. The consistency was quite liquid but no more than Stans, albeit without the grit that Stans has. Based on the smell, I think we used too much ammonia. 25 ml of 10% strength is probably more than enough.

We then did some rudimentary testing. I fitted a Hutchinson Barracuda 2.3 UST tire to a Shimano XT wheel (UST rim), injected 50 ml of OSS-sv, pumped it to 30 psi, spun it a few times and then ran it over a roofing nail hammered into a plank. About 10 ml of OSS-sv sprayed out and the tire sealed within 10 seconds, losing about 3 psi.

I ran out of Stans recently so we weren't able to compare it's performance but we ran the same test with some CaffeLatex that I had sitting on the shelf. It performed as well as the OSS (same time to seal, about the same pressure loss) but it appeared that we lost more of the sealant before it sealed. I have had problems with the CaffeLatex before so I was surprised that it performed as well as it did. We were very happy with how quickly the OSS sealed up though. If I had been riding when I punctured, I may not have even noticed. However, I suspect that it may not perform the same with a tire that is spinning and being deformed by the terrain.

I can't comment on longevity yet but I will report back in a few months.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It's great info!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Just made up a new batch of BAMFS v.2.0. My mix is:

1 part mold builder liquid latex
2.3 parts PG
2 parts DI water
2 tbs cornmeal

For my "part" I use a Stan's red scooper. BTW, 2 tbs is a little more than 1/2 a scoop for the cornmeal. Nice and watery. My last stuff lasted a bit over 3 mos. before not being able to hear sloshing.

I mix in the order I have listed using a mason jar and just shaking..nothing particularly fancy. I store it in an old Slime bottle from my WSS days. Edit. this allows you to turn the bottle upside down and allow the cornmeal "crystals" to sink to the bottom (tip) so you can get plenty out when you fill your scooper.

Edit. BTW, I was able to find Mold Builder at Michaels...in the past I was using Hobby Lobby but they are closed on Sundays. 40% off coupon, paid ~$10.5 for a jar.

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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

I've been getting by on a dried out WSS from last year ( in thick tires that tend to resist cuts ) but as soon as riding season moves into full swing, I need to get some juice back in those tires.

So we have the last 2 recipes posted - basically just different in the Ammonia. (ignoring cornmeal difference - that's chunk-a-lator - and I think you need some! )

Theory on Ammonia is keeps latex liquid longer - is that the general idea? ( we all know the latex smells like ammonia when you open it )

Would it potentially also slow down sealing by the same concept?

Its almost time for me to finally start mixing ( have gathered said ingredients ) and was curious about the ammonia. Originally I was planning on using it, but TiGeo has me re-thinking it.

Thanks!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The latex has it in there so I figure it's a nice to have more than a must have. With that said, some careful experimentation may yield concrete data on this.

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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Adding ammonia is for booger reduction. You can have lots of liquid - and all your latex in a big'ole booger. Glycol is to hold down evaporation and keep the overall mix liquid.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I have been thinking of a way to test all of this. I think you would need several sets of the same wheels, same tires, and the various brews. Then, you hook each to an apparatus that turns them at XX RPM to simulate riding X hours/day. You can do this inside in a controlled enviro w/r to temp and do a heat/cool down each 24 hours....or maybe you just mix this crap up, dump it in, ride, repeat every so often


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## HenryK (Oct 21, 2010)

*Cleaning sealant off bead*

Is there an easy,accepted way to clean the built up sealant off the tire bead. Moving tire to a new rim and cleaning the bead is pretty tedious. It only comes off maybe a half inch at a time if I'm lucky.

Thanks


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Have you tried just installing it without cleaning it? Just pull off what's hanging loose and proceed to install and inflate it. :thumbsup:


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

When I am taking off a tire and plan to re-use it in the future I will try to scoop good sealant out w/ a stans red cup. I pull off/out any boogers. I then rinse out the inside and bead area of the tire using the hose and as high pressure as my nozzle will allow. While it's still wet I use a microfiber towel and grasp it around the bead and clean the used goop off by rubbing it in both directions. I have also used a green scotchbrite pad.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Andy13 said:


> I have also used a green scotchbrite pad.


+1 I'm usually doing this under running water and clearing the pad of strings often. If it's still attached when you're done, it shouldn't be a problem.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I just clean mine with a kitchen scrubby sponge under hot water..hate the weight of the old goop...yeah...a bit of a weight weenie..I know.

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## David C (May 25, 2011)

When I took mine off a few weeks ago, I decided to leave the dry sealant coating on so it will already be there for next winter. I simply rinse the tires with running water and let dry. Once it's dry, the latex layer gets almost invisible and you can peel it if you start rubbing on it.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Just did a tire swap; 3-or-so month old BAMFS v.2.0 looking great. Still moist with just a bit of free liquid...starting to dry up. No big boogers. Comes out of the sold tires v. easily (compared to WSS I was using). A scrubby sponge and some warm/hot water and I got most of it out. I will also say for my latest batch - if you are using cornmeal you really need to shake up the bottle to dislodge the "crystals" from the bottom of the bottle and allow them to settle to the tip (ready my post above) so you get some in your tire when you do your pour. I think this stuff is great and I am sticking with my extra-ammonia-free mix for the foreseeable future.


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## cplagz (Jan 28, 2014)

Again, bloody Australia PG isn't readily available do you think using ethylene glycol will make much difference?

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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

HenryK said:


> Is there an easy,accepted way to clean the built up sealant off the tire bead. Moving tire to a new rim and cleaning the bead is pretty tedious. It only comes off maybe a half inch at a time if I'm lucky.


If you are using the new and popular "thin" version that's more watery then you shouldn't have a a problem. It seems to be thinner and just peels off extremely easy; it doesn't still to the bear or tire surface as well. The older version we worked on is thicker and really sticks to the tires better. A little more of a chore to get out of the tire although the strings along the bead should still pull out easily. As said earlier, if you can't get it out easily it's likely not gonna 'cause any problems.

Gonna have to work on a new, thicker batch with some extra ammonia. Burped pretty good a couple weeks ago. Hand pump didn't work but a blast or two of C02 seated the bead again on the trail. When I got home there was a pretty good sized booger. Wondering now if the rubber crumb is the booger cause and not the xantham gum? Next build I'll make a couple half batches using corn meal, one with xantham, one without. Just for sh|ts and giggles...


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

CO2 can cause coagulation. 

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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> CO2 can cause coagulation.


DOES cause coagulation. I know. It's easier and quicker than pulling the tire apart and putting in a tube which is always a last resort.


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## Rhialto (Oct 21, 2009)

big0mike said:


> Wondering now if the rubber crumb is the booger cause and not the xantham gum? Next build I'll make a couple half batches using corn meal, one with xantham, one without. Just for sh|ts and giggles...


Thinking I could improve on Stan's sealant, I grated some pencil eraser and mixed it into the sealant the last time I changed one of my tires. I cracked the bead a month later and there was a large booger rolling around. I have never had this happen with off-the-shelf Stans so I'm assuming it was the pencil eraser bits that caused it. I haven't tried corn meal yet...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Cornmeal guys.....it's what is in Stan's (per the posts I have posted on this subject)...it works great.

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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Rhialto said:


> Thinking I could improve on Stan's sealant, I grated some pencil eraser and mixed it into the sealant the last time I changed one of my tires. I cracked the bead a month later and there was a large booger rolling around. I have never had this happen with off-the-shelf Stans so I'm assuming it was the pencil eraser bits that caused it. I haven't tried corn meal yet...


Stan's doesn't have an emulsifier like xantham gum, either. Thus the need to shake it up. But, putting rubber in there and receiving boogers is a fair indication that it could be the rubber, not xantham gum. My theory was that the latex loves to stick to the rubber, thus the coating on the surface of the tire. With chunks of rubber in there being coated by the latex they may simply just continue to grow, emulsifier or none. Maybe the cornmeal has no such affinity for the latex?

Still thinking about the xantham gum... likely may try it just to try it and see if it is the cause of the boogers. But thinking that suspending the corn meal in the liquid may be less effective than allowing the corn meal to rest on the tire surface as it rolls; where it's nearest the holes it will plug. Having to shake and stir the mix just seems to me to be a flaw in the basic recipe.

Either way I'm going back to a thicker mix. Xantham gum helps with that.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

My theory on booger formation is that any particles in the mix act as booger-nuclei and the rolling/movement cause a snow-balling effect. To biOmike's comment - I believe the cornmeal does tend to rest on the tire as it rolls rather than move as a fluid. When you take the tire off, there is a coating of cornmeal-laden sealant on the tire..not so much in the free liquid that rests on the bottom. I think the point of shaking the mix is that if you don't, you don't get any of the cornmeal into the scooper cup.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> To biOmike's comment - I believe the cornmeal does tend to rest on the tire as it rolls rather than move as a fluid. When you take the tire off, there is a coating of cornmeal-laden sealant on the tire..not so much in the free liquid that rests on the bottom. I think the point of shaking the mix is that if you don't, you don't get any of the cornmeal into the scooper cup.


I know the point of shaking it is to make sure you get some chunkulators in the tire. But, it's also to mix everything else up, too. I've got the remnants of my last batch in it's jar and after a week it separates. Not sure WHAT it separates into but there are two distinct and separate fluids in the jar with chunks on the bottom.

Seems to me that the corn meal is almost useless then? If it's already cemented itself on the tire surface without as much actually in the sealant it can't seal any holes. The only way it can seal holes is if it's flowing freely and the escaping of air pushes it into the hole. I wonder if my Dane hair stays in the mix or sticks to the walls? I'll have to check next time I open a tire up, which hopefully won't be for many months.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I don't get a separation in my container that I can see beyond the cornmeal settle get to the bottom. The tire rolling takes care of the shaking. It's not cemented to the tire..just sitting on it if the makes sense. I don't think there is an issue of the bits getting to the hole if there is free liquid moving in the tire.

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ok shitton of info here, spent couple hrs trying to sort this out as im about to buy everything to make home brew.

Only issue im running across is rv antifreeze over PG. Does the RV antifreeze anti-corrosives cause issues?

Here's what I've got or about to order so far. I have my 29er and my sons 20" im doing tubeless.

1 8oz tube slime
1 16oz tubeless (automotive) slime
-I have these around normally anyway. And 2 diff chunk sizes.
1 32oz latex (only $3 more than a 16oz)

I can get food grade PG cheap enough, rv antifreeze almost as cheap. Ammonia as well if needed. This is just where I am having issues, rv af or pg and ammonia. Worried about corrosion but not sure if rv af causes sealant issues instead.

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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

PG is better than RV antifreeze. Ammonia has had no issues and many of us have used it for over 5 years.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

tigris99 said:


> Ok shitton of info here, spent couple hrs trying to sort this out as im about to buy everything to make home brew.
> 
> Only issue im running across is rv antifreeze over PG. Does the RV antifreeze anti-corrosives cause issues?
> 
> ...


its the atv slime that has the best chunks. while pg is better, the rv antifreeze has proven effiective in the wss mixes. I'm running V3 of wss right now with out problems, but I ran v2 and v1 with out problems as well. good luck.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Could u specify v3. Not sure what page that was on. Especially being so many ppl playing with their own variants.

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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

You can certainly use RV anti-freeze.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

tigris99 said:


> Could u specify v3. Not sure what page that was on. Especially being so many ppl playing with their own variants.
> 
> Sent from my Nokia Stupidphone using Tapatalk


i don't remember the portions, but is latex, pg, slime, corn meal, and ammonia.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> TiGeo said:
> 
> 
> > To biOmike's comment - I believe the cornmeal does tend to rest on the tire as it rolls rather than move as a fluid. *When you take the tire off, there is a coating of cornmeal-laden sealant on the tire..not so much in the free liquid that rests on the bottom.*
> ...


In your first post I read it to mean that the cornmeal-laden sealant on the tire was that film of latex buildup with the cornmeal in it, hence, it wouldn't be moving. And not much cornmeal in the liquid portion of the sealant. If that's not the case then cool...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

It's sitting on the tire but not stuck to it if that makes sense. I am sure it moves as the liquid slashes while the tire rotates.

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ok went the pg route, not as cheap as rv antifreeze (well not sure concentration of the 32oz bottle I ordered) but seems its noticably better. So that, gorilla tape, big thing of latex on the way. Using slime I have on hand, and grabbed stems while I was at lbs. Well see how kenda karma l3r's like it. Going gorilla route for first attempts since its less finicky and works as good.

Wish me luck ill update later this week/weekend as I give tubeless a go for the first time.

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

ElwoodT said:


> i don't remember the portions, but is latex, pg, slime, corn meal, and ammonia.


Aight, everything here. Tube slime bottle will be applicator bottle, just emptied it into my commuter tubes. pretty much got enough here to cover my 29er and my sons 20" for a few years,lol. 2 gallons worth except the slime. Wont mix it all up obviously, probably half gallon at a time.



Hoping ratios I found and wrote down are right:

1 Latex
1 PG
1 Slime
2 Distilled water
.5 Ammonia
.25 Cornmeal (I have uncooked I think, didnt see choices beyond prices)


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Not to dissuade you, but you got all the ingredients to make a "pure" version of the sauce ... I would consider not using the slime. My experience is the slime makes boogers just like other additives.

Maybe try it plain and then with slime?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

slcpunk said:


> Not to dissuade you, but you got all the ingredients to make a "pure" version of the sauce ... I would consider not using the slime. My experience is the slime makes boogers just like other additives.
> 
> Maybe try it plain and then with slime?


This.

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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

My "non slime" version has been working FLAWLESS.

Had one issue where maybe a thicker "chunk" may have helped, MAYBE, but it was minor. Converted a brand new soft rubbery sidewall Specialized tire to tubeless. The sidewall had a pretty bad manufacturing hole in it. Enough that when I first inflated the tire there was a heavy stream of air coming out I could feel from 6" away. BIGTIME air loss. Shook my thin cornmeal only brew around and it sealed instantly. No biggie...... Next day went on a ride and within 1/4 mile tire was almost flat. Whatever plugged that hole pushed through and the hole was leaking again. Rode back to trailhead, pumped tire up, and never had a problem again tire is still rocking and rolling.

Was a weird one.....


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Aight I'll go that route first then. Search around for some bigger chunk maybe than just corn meal

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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Or alternatively you could leave out the cornmeal. The tubeless slime has fibers and chunks.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

part of me is ready to run a "pure" version, but 4 years of success running versions of wss has me thinking- "if it aint broke"....


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The slime causes weeping and boogers IMHO.

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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

TiGeo said:


> The slime causes weeping and boogers IMHO.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


not in my experience running tubeless and non tubeless tires from maxis, geax, shwalbe, and bontrager. the bigest booger I've ever had was recently in a v3 wss and was no bigger than a peanut. I've had weeping once in a 2.25 ardent, but that was really only a day's worth and then it was done. At least a dozen diffent tires.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Well I could make rubber chunk, got a dremel lol. But fiber.... That's why I was aiming at slime originally. Slime fibers are really fine so what to use?????

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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

I have to take in a wheel with a wobble after last night's crash - I was anticipating having to remove Gorilla Tape residue from the rim, however, it came off cleanly with zero residue. To those that have that problem, I would think the prep was lacking, and strapping tape off ebay not needed. YMMV I will also note, zero boogers from the home-brew without using any Slime in the mix.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

tigris99 said:


> Well I could make rubber chunk, got a dremel lol. But fiber.... That's why I was aiming at slime originally. Slime fibers are really fine so what to use?????


The rubber crumb I used (and still is in my current supply) is moderately to heavily prone to booger. Don't know what Slime does in their mix to keep their chunks from boogering but the OSS seems to have a problem.

I use hair from my Great Dane for fibers. Next mix will be corn meal instead of rubber chunk.

But, use whatever you want. This entire thread is just one enormous experiment and maybe Slime AND cornmeal will make an incredibly effective solution. Who cares if it's not "pure"? Screw these elitists here! :rant:

My next batch will actually be two, one with xantham gum, one without, to see if the xantham gum is a booger maker. We've determined that rubber crumb is a booger magnet. My last batch had xantham gum and rubber crumb and it booger lots. This batch does not have any xantham gum and still boogers but not to the same degree. It's also very thin and my experience has been atypical in that it is not as effective as a thicker solution.

Hell, it may turn out that a sealant with chunks WILL booger regardless of anything else. Nothing can be done about it? Who knows? My theory is that the latex and rubber want to stick together so they do forming boogers. I'm hoping the next batch with corn meal reveals that the latex and corn meal don't have the same attraction.

But, I'm no scientist like some of these guys...



s0ul_chicken said:


> I have to take in a wheel with a wobble after last night's crash - I was anticipating having to remove Gorilla Tape residue from the rim, however, it came off cleanly with zero residue. To those that have that problem, I would think the prep was lacking, and strapping tape off ebay not needed. YMMV I will also note, zero boogers from the home-brew without using any Slime in the mix.


Gorilla tape applied to brand new Outlaw wheels. There was no prep necessary. Removing it without residue is impossible. I think you got lucky... :thumbsup:


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## craigshaf (May 23, 2007)

I made my own mix years ago. (Probably have to go deep in this thread now to see the picture). But I stopped using it after I tore a sidewall on a trail and my mix spewed out. At that point I realize I was spewing anti-freeze on my trail. That didn't seem to sit well in my gut. 

Have any of these formulas stopped using anti-freeze in them yet?
Do you guys know if Stan's uses anti-freeze too?

Cheers.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I use food grade propylene glycol (PG) as do many others.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I don't think you can make a sealant that is both 1) effective and 2) won't booger. This is the whole way latex-based sealants work..by essentially plugging holes with boogers. I think the key is to hold off on the stuff drying out (boogering) for as long as possible...for my mix, that is about 3 mos. which is fine with me.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> craigshaf said:
> 
> 
> > I made my own mix years ago. (Probably have to go deep in this thread now to see the picture). But I stopped using it after I tore a sidewall on a trail and my mix spewed out. At that point I realize I was spewing anti-freeze on my trail. That didn't seem to sit well in my gut.
> ...


This. It's the cool, new thing. Replace the nasty antifreeze with PG. Keep everything else the same or even upgrade the recipe. Yes, it's food-grade, so not harming to you, plant life, or animals. I even use it to coat the plunger in my Stan's syringe 'cause it's sticky as hell. The PG makes it slide real easy.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I haven't had notable booger issues with rubber crumb, but it IS very good at blocking valve stems and etc. I do think that there is an anti-oxidant on the bought crumbs. Pre-soaking in ammonia and rinsing would probably help there.

We haven't really settled on a good fiber chunkulator. Slime users are happy, the cornmeal crowd think fiber is unnecessary. Dog hair and dryer lint have been used. I did look into "cotton linters" used in paper making. Here's a description of various papermaking fibers


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

big0mike said:


> But, use whatever you want. This entire thread is just one enormous experiment and maybe Slime AND cornmeal will make an incredibly effective solution. Who cares if it's not "pure"? Screw these elitists here! :rant:


Don't get me wrong, no scientist or elitist here. ( well ... I am superior to everyone in every way, but who's counting )

Seriously though - big0mike is right - its all an experiment. There are no right or wrong answers. ( well, again, excepting that I'm always right) As an aside, I started following this thread about the time big0mike made his videos of mixing up the sealant. ( good shiite! )

My thoughts on no-slime were simply that the recipe focused on keeping contaminants down - so adding something like slime with lots of ingredients is counter productive. ( i mean, the recipe calls for distilled water - if you buy into the need for using something that pure, then using slime seems counter intuitive ... at least to me )

Anyway, try both and report back - that's what we're here for - finding the best mix!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

wadester said:


> I haven't had notable booger issues with rubber crumb, but it IS very good at blocking valve stems and etc. I do think that there is an anti-oxidant on the bought crumbs. Pre-soaking in ammonia and rinsing would probably help there.
> 
> We haven't really settled on a good fiber chunkulator. Slime users are happy, the cornmeal crowd think fiber is unnecessary. Dog hair and dryer lint have been used. I did look into "cotton linters" used in paper making. Here's a description of various papermaking fibers


Its going to be the slimers vs. the corn-mealers vs. the lint users...battle to the death!!


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## s0ul_chicken (Aug 1, 2013)

big0mike said:


> Gorilla tape applied to brand new Outlaw wheels. There was no prep necessary. Removing it without residue is impossible. I think you got lucky... :thumbsup:


Those wheels were not new - I had six months of riding them with tubes before going tubeless.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

TiGeo said:


> Its going to be the slimers vs. the corn-mealers vs. the lint users...battle to the death!!


I stock a supply of sealant for our bike club house, approximately a gallon a season. So far the WSS, with PG and extra ammonia, has been by far the favorite. We also stock Stans and an original OSS batch, but they rarely get used unless we run out of WSS.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Try the newer stuff...latex, PG, DI water, cornmeal.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Have you tried the WSS formula I mentioned above, and if so, what is better about the cornmeal substitute?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

bsieb said:


> ^Have you tried the WSS formula I mentioned above, and if so, what is better about the cornmeal substitute?


Don't argue with cornmeal true believers. It's all grist for their mill.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

bsieb said:


> ^Have you tried the WSS formula I mentioned above, and if so, what is better about the cornmeal substitute?


I don't like the slime...causes bad weeping on my Specy tires.

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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I have found weeping to be more a function of sidewall thickness and integrity. My current Ikon 2.35 tires don't weep at all, even after setting all winter. I have not heard of or experienced weeping being a problem with ust casings either. The additional ammonia my help but I have not systematically investigated it. It was most evident when I used cheap EG antifreeze and seemed to get worse as the sealant mix aged in the bulk container. There are a lot of variables involved, to say the least. I have advocated running different mixes front and rear to get a good comparison, and have done so myself for several years. Your Speshy tires may have better sidewalls than prior older versions, for instance, making comparisons difficult unless you are running old and new sealant mixes concurrently for comparison. I have been considering running your cornmeal mix and WSS this season.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Interesting..my group has all gotten weeping with our older WSS mix. Various Specy tires (both S-Works and Control casing) as well as Maxxis tires. The new "BAMFSV2" hasn't had that issue. I agree..it has something to do with the Slime and/or antifreeze.

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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I'm using the "new" WSS mix: food grade PG, latex, RO or distilled water, clear ammonia, and tubeless slime, and for all practical purposes don't have any problems anymore. Being a very happy camper at this point, only curiosity would lead me to try another mix.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Have an odd question mixed up my batch last night, is this stuff supposed to be rather thin? 

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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

Im about to try my first cornmeal batch. 

I get instant boogers with rubber crumb and xanathan gum. Within a week i have a decent booger.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

TiGeo said:


> ^^^Try the newer stuff...latex, PG, DI water, cornmeal.


Can you add pg to latex? I thought you had to add water first? I made a giant latex ball one time and would like to avoid that again.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

bsieb said:


> I'm using the "new" WSS mix: food grade PG, latex, RO or distilled water, clear ammonia, and tubeless slime, and for all practical purposes don't have any problems anymore. Being a very happy camper at this point, only curiosity would lead me to try another mix.


Maybe it's the tubeless Slime...I was using the ATV stuff in my WSS.

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## Fred Smedley (Feb 28, 2006)

TiGeo said:


> Maybe it's the tubeless Slime...I was using the ATV stuff in my WSS.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Is it not the same thing?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I don't think so - there is Slime specifically for tubeless mountain bike tires (I *think* what he is using) and then regular Slime.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have always had weeping when using the "tubeless" Slime on probably 20 different models of tires. The are at least 3 types of Slime. Slime Pro which is made for mountain bike tires is very similar to our current recipe with latex, ammonia, water and probably pg and eg mixed with crumbs of some kind. There is also tubeless slime (which I think is also ATV slime) that has EG for sure and rubber crumbs and then there is the type of Slime for tubed tires.

Do not mix PG and latex directly. There is an immediate and un-reversable reaction.

The current best mixes in most opinions are thin.

Cornmeal is also very effective at blocking valve stems. I have found that if you hold the Stan's syringe level (parallel to the ground) before you start to inject; that it is way less likely to clog. If you point the syringe down, the particles tend to go towards the bottom and all go in the hole at once (maybe that is why it works so well on a tire with a hole in the bottom) If the syringe is level, you get a more or less constant mixture of corn as the fluid surges forward taking the distributed corn with it and the particles flow through more or less one at a time.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

One more thought on holding the injector level. If you have it pointed down for more than a very short time while connecting it tot he valve stem, much of the corn will have settled to the bottom and it will clog almost as soon as you start to push the sealant in. Hold it parallel to the ground and pull back a little on the plunger and it will pull the corn back into the main chamber from the nozzle then after it has settled start to slowly push the mixture in.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok..thanks for the clarification - I thought he was talking about Slime Pro..he was using the regular Slime...my bad.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slcpunk said:


> My thoughts on no-slime were simply that the recipe focused on keeping contaminants down - so adding something like slime with lots of ingredients is counter productive. ( i mean, the recipe calls for distilled water - if you buy into the need for using something that pure, then using slime seems counter intuitive ... at least to me )


I never thought of Slime as a "contaminant." But, for the purpose of trying to make a better sealant I agree that it was terribly counter intuitive to include a SEALANT in our new sealant. 



TiGeo said:


> Interesting..my group has all gotten weeping with our older WSS mix. Various Specy tires (both S-Works and Control casing) as well as Maxxis tires. The new "BAMFSV2" hasn't had that issue. I agree..it has something to do with the Slime and/or antifreeze.


I got some weeping with WSS in some tires, nothing with other tires. I think it has more to do with the casing and whether or not it's a true tubeless tire. After running two sets of two different tires, both real UST tires, I won't use anything but a true UST tire now.



bsieb said:


> I'm using the "new" WSS mix: food grade PG, latex, RO or distilled water, clear ammonia, and tubeless slime, and for all practical purposes don't have any problems anymore. Being a very happy camper at this point, only curiosity would lead me to try another mix.


Slime Tubeless Plus  I like it. At first I thought it was OSS with Slime but then I reread it and saw you are using Tubeless Slime. Doesn't it have latex in it? Does your new WSS work better than Tubeless Slime by itself? That'd be a good test to run!



yourdaguy said:


> Cornmeal is also very effective at blocking valve stems. I have found that if you hold the Stan's syringe level (parallel to the ground) before you start to inject; that it is way less likely to clog.


Sounds like my first experiment with silica gel. IMMEDIATELY clogged the syringe. Pain in the ass.

So, earlier someone mentioned their mix doesn't separate. Is this the typical experience? Left shot is after a week or two. You can see a thick, lighter-colored layer on top, a bottom layer and then rubber crumb settled in the bottom. Right is shaken up.

















I've still got a small batch left of my mix with xantham gum and rubber crumb. I'm gonna sh|tcan this thin stuff and use the thicker mix with xantham gum. When that's gone I'll mix another new batch with corn meal. Yeah, it boogers pretty well. At the cost we are making it I'm not real concerned if it boogers and has to be cleaned out and refilled a little more often. At least it works. Can't say the same with the thin mix.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ok here's the batch I ended up with.



16oz distilled water

8oz pg

16oz latex

8oz tubeless (automotive) slime

2oz ammonia (stuff from Wallyworld dont know % so played it careful)

~3oz cornmeal.



Kenda karma l3r pro tires. 2.2f & 1.9r. Alex dp20 29er wheels (came with dt Swiss spokes,brass nipples and m529 hubs)



And I don't know what the whining is about getting beads to seat.... Lol ;p. Oh guess that this gave me am excuse to buy new 6g air compressor 125psi. Proper air chuck, removed valve cores, beads seated in a flash. Took a couple tries on each to get core back in without loosing too much air. 10mins working the sealant through and both tires sealed nicely. Beads took a few but rest was instant seal.



Check back in morning to see how much I loose first night. No decent gauge that fits prestas so I fill by feel. Sitting at about 45ish in each tire atm.


UPDATE: 

Checked in the morning, tires dropped to about 10 psi rear, 5psi front.

Aired back up, shook and spun again.

Couple hours later went for first ride, had to add a bit of air to set pressures to my liking. 
Held up great. Very different feel. Nice though more compliance from the tires made for smoother ride. Did catch a thorn heard a brief hiss then sealed right up.

I'll check back as anything changes or first sealant lvl check. All I know is very happy right now and actually was very simple to mix and set up. Sealant mix does very well for me. A little weeping via porous spots in sidewalls but that seems over as well.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Weeping...interesting observation this morning as I loaded my bike on the roof rack. I just switched from my Specy Ground Controls over to my summer fasties...a S-Works Fast Trak in the front and a Renegade Control in the rear. The renegade had WSS in it last it was used (slime/water/latex/anti-freeze). I was getting ZERO weeping with the Ground Controls (both S-Works and Control casings). Now I am getting some minor weepage along the seems of the Renegade..they are greenish tinted so I am assuming this is the old WSS sweating out. The S-Works Fast Trak has no weepage. I do believe weepage is related to the TPI of the tires...the S-Works are 120 and the Controls are 60.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Week 1 update:

Mix and conversion working great, tomorrow will be true test as few hrs will be spent riding on all kinds of different stuff. after 24hrs there was 0 weeping, no pressure loss what so ever.

Also just did conversion to sons 20" and im hoping the bontrager tires I ordered have just as solid side wall. his was harder to get bead to seat but sealed up exceptionally fast and no weeping through the sidewalls at all. Hell like the more supple feeling for sure. I think my kenda sidewalls are rather thin hence all the little pin holes that took a day to seal fully.

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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

Question on corn meal. Someone recommended rinsing it, can't remember why. I flatted on my road tire and the sealant worked to a point, that point being about 30psi. When I opened up my tire I found a clump of what looks like corn meal. I am thinking maybe I added it incorrectly to my last batch. Any thoughts? 
It wasn't a typical "goober". Those always seemed primarily latex where this was simply a clump and it didn't adhere to the tire like some previous goobers. 
TIA


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I think you just may have too much cornmeal in your mix.

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## Allen Eltor (Jun 1, 2014)

*Good thread fantastic read, great chemistry tutorial on sealants*

Okay I found out what I wanted to know thanks.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

At that point you are essentially trying to make a air-tight homemade UST tire...why bother?

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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

Allen Eltor said:


> I read the thread. Are there people who lay something like a half-pipe of polyethylene pipe insulation foam, along the inside of the tire, to slow down losses and spraying when something goes pop?
> 
> Does that much foam take much from handling, do people do it?
> 
> ...


give it a try, and report back. welcome to the forum btw.


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## Allen Eltor (Jun 1, 2014)

TiGeo said:


> At that point you are essentially trying to make a air-tight homemade UST tire...why bother?[/QUOTE
> 
> I sent a note to the moderator to close the account, I could see the brains all drained out of this thread when the chemist left and KNEW BETTER than ACCUSE any of you of having the brains or courtesy, to simply answer the questions as asked without smartassed crank "why bother" pseudo philosophy.
> 
> ...


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Allen Eltor said:


> I read the thread. Are there people who lay something like a half-pipe of polyethylene pipe insulation foam, along the inside of the tire, to slow down losses and spraying when something goes pop?


Interesting idea. Line the inside of the tire carcass with closed cell foam to allow more tolerance of long pointy things.

This is really outside the idea of sealant, and I would probably still run sealant because I KNOW that there are still long pointy things out there that are 3-4" long and would defeat anything but a solid foam donut. I recall using "Mr. Tuffy" tire strips with tubes - with poor results. A thicker (thorn proof) tube worked better - but sealant was still required.

So - I'm thinking that to make your idea work, you would have to glue the foam to the tire to keep it in place. Sealing the edge to the bead would be critical - perhaps like "ghetto" tubeless, where extra material runs between bead and rim?


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

Allen Eltor said:


> TiGeo said:
> 
> 
> > At that point you are essentially trying to make a air-tight homemade UST tire...why bother?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I was simply pointing out that this idea wasn't really in the realm of sealant..geez...

Edit...ok...shouldn't have thrown in the "why bother" comment..but still..what you are suggesting is really about making the tire puncture proof with a physical barrier rather than a sealant which is the main topic of this thread.

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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

TiGeo said:


> I think you just may have too much cornmeal in your mix.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


How is everyone adding cornmeal? Are you just adding it straight from the box/package into your mix or are you rinsing it. If you are rinsing it, do you let it completely dry before adding to the mix? Thanks a ton in advance.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I am sifting mine through 2 strainers and using what is left in the middle one. I get rid of the biggest pieces that won't go through the valve stem and the small powdery pieces that are not useful for plugging holes.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Andy13 said:


> How is everyone adding cornmeal? Are you just adding it straight from the box/package into your mix or are you rinsing it. If you are rinsing it, do you let it completely dry before adding to the mix? Thanks a ton in advance.


I just dump it in the mix from the package, no rinsing.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^x2


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

What do you guys make of this? I don't remember anyone talking about Stans NEW formulation ( although the video is a year old already ) At first I thought, who cares about evap rate in open air ...but ....after I watched, I wondered if it might make a difference.

utube-stans-evap

I have to say, it seems impressive ... although much thicker than I generally expect our homebrews to come out. I assume it started thinner and got thicker over time? It does seem like it would do a good job of stopping leaks/plugging holes.

I guess I'll have to set out a plate of homebrew to see how it goes.

Anyone compared the old/new Stans or do the evap test with their homebrew?

Also, this has probably been posted before, but I just noticed it...stans MSDS


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Okay, that new Stan-Stuff looked impressive. Tempts me to do a plate test with some WSS - and possibly buy some 'O the NewStanStuff to compare.

Not yet listed on their webstore.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

We need a chemist. Something to keep water from having vapor pressure.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> We need a chemist. Something to keep water from having vapor pressure.


Simple - just ditch the water and go with 100% glycol! I may have to check on other Very Low Vapor Pressure fluids.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have tried going with mostly PG but it doesn't seem to seal as well. Although, that was back in the xantham gum days.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ready for the new No Tubes stuff! I bet he just comes here for ideas 

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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

I know, but the strange thing is that the video is from May 2013...couldn't take that long to develop?

Oh ... and just because it looks good doesn't mean it will seal well, right?


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

slcpunk said:


> I know, but the strange thing is that the video is from May 2013...couldn't take that long to develop?
> 
> Oh ... *and just because it looks good doesn't mean it will seal well*, right?


that or it worked so good they didn't want to cut into their own sales.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Maybe he (Stan) is still waiting for the new stuff to dry out;-) 

I wonder if glycerine would work better than pg and water.


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## jerry_164 (Apr 9, 2014)

I mixed a 16oz bottle of atv slime with 32oz of stans plus 'a handful' of glitter. Do you guys think that's a good combo?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

jerry_164 said:


> I mixed a 16oz bottle of atv slime with 32oz of stans plus 'a handful' of glitter. Do you guys think that's a good combo?


Based on my experience, meh. I had no positive experience with glitter. But let us know how it works for you - your mix may have that certain je nais se qua.



yourdaguy said:


> Maybe he (Stan) is still waiting for the new stuff to dry out;-)
> 
> I wonder if glycerine would work better than pg and water.


Possible idea. Glycerol "Like ethylene glycol and propylene glycol, glycerol is a non-ionic kosmotrope that forms strong hydrogen bonds with water molecules, competing with water-water hydrogen bonds. This disrupts the crystal lattice formation of ice unless the temperature is significantly lowered." Also non-toxic.

Vapor pressure - sorry I can't find comparable temps, but hey - my googleFu seems weak today: 
Glycerol @ 125°C 1 mm Hg
PG @ 77°F (25°C) 0.13 mm Hg,

Curve slope for Glycerol data was stable at that low point, but plotted on log scale - so it's probably equivalent or better than PG.

Viscosity at 20°C:

Glycerol 1.069 Pa·s 
PG 0.042 Pa·s

So 3x gooey-er

You should whoop up a batch, and let us know how it goes!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

jerry_164 said:


> I mixed a 16oz bottle of atv slime with 32oz of stans plus 'a handful' of glitter. Do you guys think that's a good combo?


I don't see the need for glitter if you are using Slime (has fibers and/or chunks of rubber) and Stan's (has "crystals" which are likely to be cornmeal).


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Wade, I have a full batch of the other stuff. September maybe.


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## jerry_164 (Apr 9, 2014)

I got the tires mounted up two days ago using ghetto setup in the rear. And it won't stop leaking through the bead. I haven't ridden it yet is that why? It seems like it isn't drying up


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

jerry_164 said:


> I got the tires mounted up two days ago using ghetto setup in the rear. And it won't stop leaking through the bead. I haven't ridden it yet is that why? It seems like it isn't drying up


Yes, glitter causes major bead seal issues. You need to get rid of it. This thread abandoned glitter years ago.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

oh man, but I had finally got myself a lifetime supply of PG! 

Glycerol will have to wait, or some more enterprising person will have to take up the charge. 

gooey-er ... that sure seemed like what Stan had in his "new" formulation ( that we have never seen in the wild except in that random youtube video .... )

course, we didn't see it "fresh" from the bottle either, only after 22 days on a plate.

still not sure what to take away from that experiment....other than Stan has plates and time to spare.


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## Alias530 (Apr 1, 2013)

slcpunk said:


> What do you guys make of this? I don't remember anyone talking about Stans NEW formulation ( although the video is a year old already ) At first I thought, who cares about evap rate in open air ...but ....after I watched, I wondered if it might make a difference.
> 
> utube-stans-evap
> 
> ...


Obviously the new Stans taking longer to dry out is beneficial to how often you have to refill your tires, but don't you WANT it to harden eventually? Like when you get a puncture and the sealant fills it in?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Tell me more about glycerol. Is this what we are talking about?

Amazon.com: Glycerin Vegetable Kosher USP - 1 Quart: Health & Personal Care

Are we talking about a 1:1 conversion of water:glycerol?
Are we talking about JUST glycerol in place of PG and water or glycerol and PG in the mix?

After rereading Wadester's post it looks like he's saying 1:1 substitute would make the mix 3x thicker.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Yea Mike that is the right stuff. However, I would dilute it with water since it is more viscous than PG. I would think 2 parts RO water to 1 part Glycerine With about 1/2 part latex as a rough approximation of where I would start.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I thought we were trying to get rid of water to aid in longevity? So we are just reducing it then?

No PG, 1:2:.5 glycerine, water, latex.

I've got the stuff to make a new batch (minus the glycerine of course) but I've got plenty of my two old batches so I don't know if I'll make it yet...


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

A gallon is $13.65 and around $13 shipping means a gallon is around $27 something landed from here:

Bulk Vegetable Glycerin | Bulk Apothecary


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Anyway, I don't know if glycerin is the answer, but it does "crave" water and might hold the water better than PG. Also, for those that like the mixture thicker, it is probably 3 times more viscous than PG. If we had a chemist, he/she might be able to tell us the best proportion of water to glycerin such that it would use the most possible water and have the best water attraction capability. Wikipedia says that glycerin has 3 HO groups attached by the O's so just guessing as a non-chemist I am thinking 3 water molecules for each molecule of glycerin, but don't know how to calculate how many molecules of each in a measured amount of each. Also, we probably want to err on the side of excess water since if we have 3.2 molecules of water for every molecule of glycerine and the rate is 3 to one then the extra water would just be unattached and would soon evaporate. So after all this thought, and guessing that glycerine molecules are larger than water molecules (3H 3O as opposet to 1H 2O), I would probably start my experiment with 4 parts water to 1 part glycerine and then about 1.5 parts latex. I have a pretty good size batch of current sealant so I would probably be able to start this experiment around Sept.

In the meantime my Summer experiment is that I have been running the mixture that is around 50% water 30% PG and 20% latex with some corn (I always add some ammonia to the latex). After a month or more in the tire, I pulled the valve stems with the bike on the bike stand and inject another Stan's injector of RO water into the tires to hopefully replace any water that evaporates. I will report around Sept. if this did indeed prolong the life of the sealant. I will probably inject another dose of RO water around late July or August maybe with some additional ammonia too.

My 2nd. experiment is that I went back to using Dawn diluted with RO water to seat the tires on the rims. I had been using PG/RO water/ammonia and it was not nearly as slippery so it was harder to seat the tires. Also, I thought that the bubbling caused by the Dawn might actually increase the sealing similar to the theory in Calfey Latex. So far, I have been very happy with this. I pulled a thorn out last week and it sealed almost instantly-way better than anything other than Stan's and probably as good as Stan's so this is all looking good. Almost makes me not want to try the glycerine thing.


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## cpinkhouse (Aug 13, 2013)

This thread should be officially ordained one of the 7 Wonders of the WWW. I have been wade-ing(ha!) through it for a couple weeks now in preparation to go TL. Thank you to wadester, eurotrash666, bsieb, yourdaguy, big0mike and SO many other dedicated pseudo-scientists for this document! It has been fascinating to soak it all in.
Here are my noob questions in pursuing the holy grail OSS: If this stuff will (hopefully) last me the life of the tire, and I'll be dumping sealant straight into the tire, do i really need to fuss with drilling out my valve holes to shrader/engineering a custom syringe rig/etc.?
Is prepping tires with thinned Shoe Goo (or mold builder) to prevent weeping still a recommended step?
I'm going to avoid slime altogether, so I'm throwing in with the corn contingent. I can find corn POLENTA that is unfortified, but it is decidedly chunkier than meal. Will my mix suffer with a not-so-fine chunkulator?


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^tubeless stems come in presta. I've never had to prep a tire (maxxis, shwalbe, bontrager, geax), ymmv. Life of the tire? that's optimistic. I have sealant in 6 wheels and usually go about 4-5 months between refills. I hope your tires last longer than that.


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## cpinkhouse (Aug 13, 2013)

It seems like there's a lot of preference for shrader, since it doesn't as easily clog when putting sealant in via syringe.
Will I probably end up using the syringe method because breaking and resealing a bead is more of a nuisance?


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

cpinkhouse said:


> It seems like there's a lot of preference for shrader, since it doesn't as easily clog when putting sealant in via syringe.
> Will I probably end up using the syringe method because breaking and resealing a bead is more of a nuisance?


I've always had luck collecting old tubes with presta valves that had removable cores...but you do have to look for them, because not all presta valves have them.

Also ... I usually just break the bead so I can see what's going on in there, otherwise I feel like I'm just guessing on how much sealant and what shape its in. ( assuming a simple shake doesn't reveal sloshing sealant sounds )

Once you've had em sealed for a bit, I find they seat up pretty easily. ( ok, tire dependant...but generally.... )


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Why drill ur rims, if u have presta wheels like most, spend the $14 on a set of tubeless valve stems or try to get ur hands on presta tubes that have removable cores and cut the valves out. Less mess, proper fit, no drilling wheels lol.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

tigris99 said:


> Why drill ur rims, if u have presta wheels like most, spend the $14 on a set of tubeless valve stems or try to get ur hands on presta tubes that have removable cores and cut the valves out. Less mess, proper fit, no drilling wheels lol.


The answer to your questions was two posts above your own question:



cpinkhouse said:


> It seems like there's a lot of preference for shrader, since *it doesn't as easily clog when putting sealant in via syringe.*


I have a set of Outlaws on my bike so didn't have to drill them.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Had my first puncture in 2.5 years. Running version 1 OSS minus most of the slime (a little bit left from the previous mix in the jar). Had a nasty 2 hole puncture, one in the tread the other near the bead( hit a sharp edge and bottomed the rim out). Had mix spraying everywhere for a few seconds until it filled. Only issue was it would not plug the hole very quickly. I really really need to run some chuck-o-later in there. I rubbed the tire in the dirt and that sealed it up for a day of riding after.

Is the cornmeal holding up fairly well? Im not sure what types I can find in Canada but I am in need of something.

Has anyone tried sand box sand yet? maybe to heavy to flow around the liquid?


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## dimitrin (Nov 23, 2008)

Sand would be a bad move. Slime = chunks, more slime may be you easiest solution.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

I dont like the way the slime seperates in my mix, I dont think it is needed in there, other then the chunks.

I will track down some cornmeal then.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm running slime and cornmeal. And being the fact I could reseat my tire after it came off and got full of wet dirt, and it sealed up so I could finish my ride, I will keep running that way. It only seperates in the jug, but any chunk is going to seperate and settle. That's what shaking is for.


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## machine4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

Many have abandoned the slime. I will have to read back as to their reasons. I have been getting boogers with in weeks and I have a feeling it is from the slime.


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## Rhialto (Oct 21, 2009)

Regarding the option to add glycerol to the mix to slow evaporation of the OSS, I remembered reading a post by eurotrash666 about the main purpose of the water in the mix (see below). Basically, water is a very good solvent. Is glycerol as good a solvent? If it isn't, will this adversely affect the resulting solution? Unfortunately, I am not knowledgeable enough about the chemistry to answer this.

Eurotrash666 - we need your expertise!



eurotrash666 said:


> Yep, the majority has to be water. Water is the solvent for the glycol and the xanthan gum, and it takes plenty of water to get a good sphere of solvation around those molecules. The interaction of water, the diol alcohol, and polysachharide includes hydrogen bonding. I would have to invoke Raoult's law for fugacity, where the individual vapor pressures of each component are factored into the vapor pressure of the solution which can be treated as a whole. In other words, the water component becomes more resistant to evaporation when in a solution with glycol because they affect each other. Quantifying the effect of xanthan gum would be difficult to do, I'd have to work at that, but it has some effect on the vapor pressure of the solution as well. Experimentation will be the the logical step. As for calculating the ammonia's escaping tendency when the ionized fraction is hyperconjugated with the terminal C=C double bonds of the butadiene in solution, I think that would take someone far more educated in the field of physical chemistry than I am... and some real fancy computer code. Take it a little further, and consider the solution is under 2.5 bar air pressure, then against a very restrictive membrane (tire). Yow. The short answer, though, is yes, that is the amount of water I had in mind.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I could possibly see the booger thing being an issue. But I can say I had none in the tire when I tore it down to clean everything and redo after blowing a bead off and it getting full of dirt. Well none that wasnt around a clump of dirt anyway.

Did find something im not sure the effects atm, but was odd. I had rinsed the tire with water during the cleaning up, the hung it up to dry. The sealant residue dried clr on the inside of the tire except the cornmeal chunks as I could actually see those. Bead and rim were both perfectly cleaned prior to reinstall (used finger nail to strip bead on tire of any sealant since dirt was mixed in all over the place), and I spent a good 15-20 mins spinning vertical and holding skewer so tire was on it side (at a slight angle) and spinning more. bead was down to a couple very slow leaks so put it back on the bike. Came out next morning if it lost any pressure I couldnt feel it. I had to let air out to get down to where I like it.

Now I wonder if the fully dried coating is going to soften up again. Also will it help or hinder sealing a puncture. I do know for right now, its like the tire never came off, no weeping or pressure loss.


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## AllMountin' (Nov 23, 2010)

thuren said:


> 36oz distilled water
> 28oz 98% Propylene Glycol
> 2oz 10% Ammonia
> 16oz Liquid Latex
> 2.5 Stan's 2oz scooper of fine Cornmeal


Just mixed this up today. THIN! Like 2% milk that doesn't taste right. My corn meal was not really fine, but not coarse either. Wanted to clog my syringe at first.

Set up a Dirt Wizard 2.75" on a 47mm trials rim with it. Found out that it had a small slice and a small hole in the paper thin sidewalls. Pissing air like crazy, but when I got sealant over it, it would seal immediately, which is promising. It would randomly start back up though, which I attribute to the thin sidewall and the lack of sealant coverage. I think this will work well for a normal tread leak.

Patched up the holes, reinflated, and rode 10 miles. Looks good so far.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

tigris99 said:


> Now I wonder if the fully dried coating is going to soften up again. Also will it help or hinder sealing a puncture. I do know for right now, its like the tire never came off, no weeping or pressure loss.


I'm not a real expert, but I have a suspicion that a nice skin or coating of old latex makes for a great layer...I've come to that feeling from having my sealant dry out, but it leaves a layer of latex inside the tire. Sure seems like it might work for some punctures and weeping? Dunno. The specific tire might have much more to do with the whole process than we're allowing... My Maxxis Advantage 2.4 seems to hold air forever even after the latex dries up....but maybe its just the tire. ( the smaller ones never worked the same way ) I could have tried a super sauce of plain old tap water, and if that tire was my test, I might think it was an awesome sealant. ( jinx, that tire will go flat next ride, no doubt )


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

What are you guys using for injectors? I'm half tempted to buy a bottle of Orange Seal and later reuse the injector and bottle for homebrew. If there is a better injector for cheaper, I may just start with homebrew.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

PHeller said:


> What are you guys using for injectors? I'm half tempted to buy a bottle of Orange Seal and later reuse the injector and bottle for homebrew. If there is a better injector for cheaper, I may just start with homebrew.


I use this:










BD60 Syringe with Catheter Tip

You can get them at drugstores, vet/feed stores, internet, auto parts, motorcycle shops,........... And not for $10 like that amazon link (just googled up a pic is all) - I saw one place was $0.83/ea or box of 40 for $33

You will also need a short length of vinyl or silicone tubing, the right size push fits over either presta or shrader. A bread twistie will work nicely as a "stay put" - until you push reaaaaaally hard on the plunger.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I havent had to mess with refill yet except when i had to clean and redo a tire after it came off. Im planning on wade's route though. Hit a farm supply store find a big enough syringe and get hose to match. I have played with a spare small syringe for my DIY brake bleed set up, found one thing out. Presta vs schrader means JACK CRAP for getting sealant in. (Sons bike is schraders) Valve cores removed, holes are the same size inside. Was testing this to see if popping a bead was going ot be easier than going in via syringe. Its a toss up except having to reseal the bead adds much more time of spinning and such.

Gotta find those little bottles i saw on here, after my bead blow off episode having spare sealant Im finding is a pretty good idea cause when that bead comes loose that crap goes EVERYWHERE except in the tire,lol.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Just pulled my tires to re-fill with BAMFSv2.0 (DI water/PG/latex/cornmeal). I tried to weight weenie it last time and only used ~1 Stan's scooper of sealant/tire..well...it doesn't last long that way! I am at ~2 mos. or so and there was no free liquid (by back tire wasn't even moist)..but not a single booger either. The person how gets a sealant to work that lasts longer and still functions properly will win this thing.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

machine4321 said:


> Many have abandoned the slime. I will have to read back as to their reasons. I have been getting boogers with in weeks and I have a feeling it is from the slime.


We ditched the Slime because this was supposed to be a "Home Brew." Didn't make much sense to try to make something from scratch and have an over-the-counter sealant be a key ingredient in our sealant.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

tigris99 said:


> Presta vs schrader means JACK CRAP for getting sealant in. (Sons bike is schraders) Valve cores removed, holes are the same size inside. Was testing this to see if popping a bead was going ot be easier than going in via syringe. Its a toss up except having to reseal the bead adds much more time of spinning and such.


I have found exactly the opposite. I have never has an issue with flowing sealant through a Schrader (949's) but can't get it to go through a presta (Stan's w/ removable cores) to save my life, even using an injector. Last time I tried, the tubing came off the valve from all of the pressure I needed to try to force the WSS through the tiny little presta valve. WSS all over the garage floor.

My normal delivery route is a funnel I made from the Slime bottle. The little notch holds a spoke perfectly and keeps the funnel in place while it flows in.

Full disclosure: I'm still using WSS 16oz latex 24oz slime 32oz H20


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I can't recall seeing this before, so here it is:

"rOAM? is a specially designed foam that is added to any liquid tire sealant, and when it's spread out evenly it pulls slightly to the edges of the tire through centrifugal force. When it's there, it acts as a clotting agent so that if there are any punctures they will be filled in quickly. The way current sealant works is that it goes through the hole and quickly mists getting rid of the liquid and quickly thickening till it can hold the pressure of the air in.

The problem is the air pressure lost as well if it's raining or wet and muddy, you get a tire puncture and the sealant has a hard time not being diluted by the H2O and you lose all the air. Like a deep cut on your hand and holding it under running water kind of idea.

Having rOAM? In there, it acts as a clot that will fill a hole from the inside reducing the time and psi lost, as well as filling much larger punctures and cuts in wet or dry conditions.

rOAM? Is super light only 1gm per scope and rOAM? won't mix in with the sealant and chemically change it. It doesn't change the formula of your favorite sealant it only adds to its capabilities making it more enhanced."

Welcome to lbs. bikes

I recall when CafeLatex came out, it was tried and found lacking. We theorized about some benefits to foaming sealant, but could not come up with an effective foaming agent. Soap and detergent was tried, but meh.

1 Bag of rOAM (min 5g)	$3.00 1 heaping tablespoon mix to 1 ounce liquid sealant

They don't tell you how much volume/bag, but should be enough to do at least one tire. They are in canuckistan, but it looks like free import duty if <$20. Tempting.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> Welcome to lbs. bikes


Seeing as the website has been under construction since 2012 I'm guessing the product never took off? Would love to know more about it...

EDIT: Sorry, I just tried to visit lbsbikes.com and it threw an error but the menus work...


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## s1ngle3trackrules (Aug 14, 2008)

I've been running the following mix: 
1 part latex 
1 part slime
1 part RV anti freeze 
1/2 part ammonia 
2 parts water
1/2 cornmeal

It seems to seal well but so far it's been drying out really fast. I just had a flat which would have easily sealed but the sealant was dried up and there was a giant bugger in the tire. I had added 2 full stan's syringes of sealant 2 weeks ago. That's the second time this summer the sealant dried out and didn't seal a flat. There has been some weeping on the tire that flatted. Could that be the issue or am I using the wrong mix? Anyone have any suggestions on what I could change in the mix to correct this?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^I would ditch the Slime.


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## berny2435 (Feb 21, 2009)

All this guessing. 
I made a mix a long time ago and tried it based on someone's mix here. The rubber particles got into the bead, keeping it from sealing. Said screw it after one ride. 

Do you guys add the particles after you get it to seal? 

I'm thinking you need one mix to get it going and then fill it again with a particle infused mixed later. 


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Cornmeal has no issues with the bead sealing...


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Ditch the Slime go Cornmeal!


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## twowheelsdown2002 (Oct 26, 2004)

slocaus said:


> As someone stated just above, use what you have now as it is, since we know it works, even if it may form boogers sooner or dries fast. We are talking teensy steps of improvement here, and pennies more saved. The original WSS is probably 90-95% of the way there in terms of performance and price goals. This new stuff may add 1%, 5%, 10%, it is mostly geeks at play.


That's it in a nutshell.

I tried PG and it wasn't that great IMO. Tried ammonia and it dried out faster than anything. I have the best luck with Latex/ATV mower slime/and 50/50 antifreeze/water.

And when I don't feel like driving to Michaels for latex, I use 1 scoop of Stan's, 1 scoop of ATV/Mower slime, and thin it with some 50/50 antifreeze mix. This actually seems to be one of the best mixtures I've used. Not totally homemade, but definitely stretches the $$ out, and works extremely well. And I live it Tucson, and get all kinds of spines in my tires, and no flats.


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## tundratrader (Mar 5, 2010)

So I live in Alaska. I want to run tubeless on my fatbike year round if I can. So water is not a good option. The rv antifreeze will work well I imagine. So what is the best current homebrew recipe. I have not found the mold builder anywhere in the little town I live in. Is there another type of latex I can use? If not would using Stan's and mixing in some rv antifreeze extend the life? I have not tried tubeless before. My rolling Darryl's will seal right now with just gorilla tape. But I haven't tried running it around. So I know my rim/tire combo will work. Just need the ingredients to help seal it all up for running around.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^amazon carries the latex: Amazon.com: Mold Builder Liquid Latex Rubber 16oz/473ml


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

big0mike said:


> Tell me more about glycerol. Is this what we are talking about?
> 
> Amazon.com: Glycerin Vegetable Kosher USP - 1 Quart: Health & Personal Care
> 
> ...


I'm using glycerol/glycerin instead of PG. Not because its better or just to be different, its because PG is very hard to find where I live and If you do find it is WAYYYY more expensive than glycerin.
Eurotrash has a post way back (maybe first half of this thread) giving a chemistry explanation on the role of the different ingredients and possible substitutes, so I just used the easier one. 

So far have been holding very good but dont really know if I ever punctured or not, going for the 5th month the sidewalls of the tyres seem to allways have moisture so I guess its still ok inside, will open both tyres in about a month and report back.
Front tyre (Continental Rubber Queen Protection) used bits of strands from paint brush as chunkulator and used corn semolina for the back tyre (Continental Mountain King Protection).


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

FMCurto said:


> I'm using glycerol/glycerin instead of PG. Not because its better or just to be different, its because PG is very hard to find where I live and If you do find it is WAYYYY more expensive than glycerin.
> Eurotrash has a post way back (maybe first half of this thread) giving a chemistry explanation on the role of the different ingredients and possible substitutes, so I just used the easier one.


What was you mix ratios? Glyercine is supposed to be much thicker than PG so it was advised to use less glycerine or more water. I believe...


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

1 part Liquid Latex.
2 part Glycerol 
2 part H2O (Destiled water)

added 1/100 part (of the above) of straight Amonia (@25%)

It did look a bit watery, so next one will probably cut water just a bit, probably 1,5 parts maybe.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

FMCurto said:


> Eurotrash has a post way back (maybe first half of this thread) giving a chemistry explanation on the role of the different ingredients and possible substitutes, so I just used the easier one.


Found it.Post #1355 Best Tubeless Brew? - Page 55

Yes,I've read that far back, and more.


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## cpinkhouse (Aug 13, 2013)

Found all but the PG less than a mile from home in Portland, Maine quite easily:
400 ml (13.5 fl.oz.) deionized water - 49 cents a gallon at the Whole Foods dispenser
300 ml (10.1 fl.oz.) propylene glycol - Tractor Supply
1.2 ml (1/4 tsp.) xanthan gum - already had a bag o' "Bob's" on the baking shelf
50 ml (1.7 fl.oz.) ammonia - CVS
250 ml (8.5 fl.oz.) liquid latex - "Artist & Craftsman" art supply
30 ml (2 tbsp.) cornmeal & polenta - cheap by bulk at Whole Foods

I chose to follow Steve_S's recipe mostly because I found his summary of instructions to be simple and straightforward AND the sealant yield was a humble 1 liter.

(obligatory pic of ingredients and goo)







A couple of substitutions: DI water for distilled, and a half tablespoon of LARGER PARTICLE "POLENTA" along with 1 1/2 tbs cornmeal. Dunno if that'll turn out to be clever or just novel.
In lieu of buying or borrowing a compressor, I brought my wheels (Hans Dampf & Maxxis Ignitor on WTB Speediscs) to a local gas station that offers a roadside air hose to random sketchballs like me. With a lot of wiggling and shaking (and even more strange looks from passersby), I got those suckers to air up and they sealed like a charm!

So HAPPY right now. Thank you all for your continuing efforts to guide wannabe DIYers like me through this process. I'll be sure to report back on successes and pitfalls.


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## cpinkhouse (Aug 13, 2013)

I'd like to hope that the addition of polenta will serve as my tiny contribution to "our" OSS quest...


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

Cpinkhouse:
What was your out of pocket for all the supplies? 
How much could you make with what you have?


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Totally blew it and coagulated and WASTED 32oz of Latex. lame...... So reminder again mix water and pg first, then slowly add Latex right? Never had this happen before.

Put the latex in first, then added PG, and ended up with a solid 2lb stans booger.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ya always mix water and pg let sit for a few then add latex and other stuff.
Sent from my Nokia Stupid Phone using Tapatalk


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## Rhialto (Oct 21, 2009)

thuren said:


> Totally blew it and coagulated and WASTED 32oz of Latex. lame...... So reminder again mix water and pg first, then slowly add Latex right? Never had this happen before.
> 
> Put the latex in first, then added PG, and ended up with a solid 2lb stans booger.


Bummer, dude. Sorry to hear that.

Always mix the PG and water first and let it rest. You may notice that the water-PG mix is warm immediately after mixing. There's a reaction going on that you want to allow to complete before you mix in the latex otherwise you may experience "boogerization".


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## tundratrader (Mar 5, 2010)

Is there anything that can substitute the latex mold builder? I know I can get it on Amazon if I need to. There must be something at a hardware or auto shop. 
If not I have access to Stan's. Is it possible that it would last longer given my cooler temperatures here in Alaska. Barely ever goes above 60 where I live. Or could I add anything to it? I have access to the different slimes as well through auto shops. Just trying to see what will work best. I may end up using Stan's because it is here for my first try tubeless. LBS has that and the valves. I saw a great trick on YouTube of making presta cutout with a soldering iron so it is nice and smooth and no gorilla thread in the way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Sort of off topic, but all the experts are here....

having trouble sealing a tire - leaks at the bead in one area ( about 6 inches of bead ). what do you think? yellow tape not thick enough, or peeled up or something? 

trail king 2.2 protection. stans flow rim.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Cpinkhouse ditch the xantham gum. The consensus is that it causes boogers.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

slcpunk said:


> Sort of off topic, but all the experts are here....
> 
> having trouble sealing a tire - leaks at the bead in one area ( about 6 inches of bead ). what do you think? yellow tape not thick enough, or peeled up or something?
> 
> trail king 2.2 protection. stans flow rim.


w/ a compressor? I don't think the thickness would be an issue, but I've seen tape move over into the bead area. I would think that if the tape had failed you'd see air/sealant in the spoke holes.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

slcpunk said:


> Sort of off topic, but all the experts are here....
> 
> having trouble sealing a tire - leaks at the bead in one area ( about 6 inches of bead ). what do you think? yellow tape not thick enough, or peeled up or something?
> 
> trail king 2.2 protection. stans flow rim.


The tape is only to cover the spoke holes. How much tape did you use/how high up the rim did you tape? I would think that maybe *too much* tape might be the issue, and it's somehow preventing the bead from seating.

Your question is kinda vague: have you added sealant yet, or is this your initial fill just to get the bead to seat? Is there damage to the rim or tire?


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## cpinkhouse (Aug 13, 2013)

GR1822 said:


> Cpinkhouse:
> What was your out of pocket for all the supplies?
> How much could you make with what you have?


water - $.49
PG - $23
xanthan gum - dunno
ammonia - $1.99
mold builder - $20
cornmeal - >$.50
polenta - $2.69
shakeable jug - $6

So, round about fifty dollars. I also bought a pair of $16 Orange Seal valve stems. 
The latex mold builder is by far the most expensive component. And it's just less than two batches worth. Otherwise, I have enough of the other stuff for many, many batches.


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## cpinkhouse (Aug 13, 2013)

yourdaguy said:


> Cpinkhouse ditch the xantham gum. The consensus is that it causes boogers.


Dang. Okay. Are there any tested alternatives that keep the chunks in suspension?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

No, the current thinking is that the suspension thing is not that important. Stan's has to be shaken constantly to keep the particles in suspension.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

I would have to check - I think just one wrap of tape, maybe two. But I'm not using stan's yellow, I'm using this seemed pretty thin. I guess I thought I would need enough to make sure the tire made contact with the "floor" of the rim ... but maybe I'm confused about that.

Yes, I have sealant (BAMFS?OSSv2) in there. ( and spent lots of time shaking, spinning, bouncing etc to try to get it to stop any leaks )


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

yourdaguy said:


> No, the current thinking is that the suspension thing is not that important. Stan's has to be shaken constantly to keep the particles in suspension.


Yeah, there was a guy that did fatwheels with clear sealing tape over the holes. Once in motion, everything stays well mixed.


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## cpinkhouse (Aug 13, 2013)

Okay. So what is the likely lifespan of my 5 oz xanthanized OSS?? We're having a relatively hot, humid Summer up here so far...


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I never got over 4 months with xantham gum. YMMV


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

So ... I think we can chalk this up to user error. Worth mentioning, in case it saves someone else the trouble.

I shook up my sealant to make sure the corn meal was well dispersed, then used a gatorade scooper to try to scoop about 3 scoops into the tire. I was using a plastic container and dipping the scooper in. Well ... the sealant was pretty frothy from all the shaking, and I must have got mostly air bubbles because when I popped the bead to check it out, there just really wasn't enough liquid to seal the remaining holes. 

I added more, with an extra dash of RO pumped it back up, shook, rolled, bouced and I am pretty sure the beads all sealed now. 

Stupid. 

Lesson: make sure you get enough sealant in there...otherwise it...can't...seal. ( tire dependent, ymmv )

The test will be tomorrow morning, to see if there were any really small leaks that I didn't notice.

ride hard and take chances


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Once you pour in a measured amount, check out the length of the puddle, usually about ~6" long for 2 scoops. After that you can just pour it in from the jug to top off the puddle, no mess, no fuss. :thumbsup:


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

A used Slime bottle works GREAT...or maybe a ketchup bottle or similar so you can shake it up and then hold it upside down allowing the cornmeal to settle before letting it flow into the scooper.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

You know, I had to top mine off the other day...I can almost tell when its time by carefully weighing my bike (with a nice scale)..I know how much sealant I put in and once the weight drops off by roughly that much (not all the way...the latex dries and remains) I know its time to add.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

If I would ever quit changing all my parts around that would be an excellent idea to tell when you need to add either sealant or liquid. I was just thinking the other day that I have finally settled on which equipment is going on each bike and I probably have them all more or less dialed. I want to freeze the equipment and start using this method.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

21.89 = full. 21.66 = add.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Why not just look inside and top off the puddle if necessary? You still don't know what's in your tire if you weigh it, could be a big booger.


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

Not like this thread needs any more input from people but I thought i'd give my 9'ish month review of this mix from thuren which is pretty 100% off the Stans MSDS sheet:
Quote Originally Posted by thuren View Post

36oz distilled water
28oz 98% Propylene Glycol
2oz 10% Ammonia 
16oz Liquid Latex
2.5 Stan's 2oz scooper of fine Cornmeal

---------
I switch tires here in TX basically every other week depending on the race venue. Not new tires, but I switch between fast traks or renegades and some times racing ralphs. We basically have moondust over hard pack here. Anyways. I can tell you this. I have saved a boat load of $$$$$ using this formula and i have had 0 failures. I'd say it's sealed up at least 3 holes and even 1 slice. I mean it should It's basically stans. So if you are looking to mimic stans. Go with that formula. 

The only thing i am barely a little curious about is that it seems like my cornmeal kind of turns like orangey' so like maybe it didn't mix as fine as I wanted it to. 

Anyways. I've gone thru almost a gallon of this stuff. I put it in all my friends tires and it's great. 

Mine mixes up like a almost 2% milk with a hint of grey to it. Pretty thin, but so is stans so good. 

In the past when I used like slime and other WSS stuff, i always got weeping but that's been covered. 

if you want no weeping mimic of stans just do the above.

ok peace,


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

^^^^^Good timing. 

I'm ready to make a new batch of sealant this weekend, and was planning to use this recipe. 
Definitely will now!


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Updates:

First is that only booger u had was around a piece of thread from the gorilla tape or some junk. And that was front tire only, the one I had to redo cause of blowing tire off bead.

Sealant was still fluid in both tires and as of now tires have been off rim for a few days and still not fully dried out. Looks like that stans in a plate video.

Also found that others are very correct in the weeping issue. Definitely a function of the tire construction. I switch my tires to bontrager expert xr2 front xr1 rear and sealed up quick with 0 visual weeping or sidewall pin holes. And im on my first batch which weeped alot on the karmas.
Sent from my Nokia Stupid Phone using Tapatalk


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

cpinkhouse said:


> half tablespoon of LARGER PARTICLE "POLENTA" along with 1 1/2 tbs cornmeal. Dunno if that'll turn out to be clever or just novel.


I think that's an awesome idea. I was very disappointed with the size of the cornmeal when I bought mine (yet to make it into a mix). Will have to check Fry's for polenta...



yourdaguy said:


> cpinkhouse said:
> 
> 
> > yourdaguy said:
> ...


I haven't given up on xantham gum yet...  Still gonna try one mix with corn meal and xantham gum to see if it was a reaction between the rubber crumb and xantham gum that caused the boogering and not the xantham gum itself. Yeah, I'm stubborn and still believe it would be better, maybe only marginally, if everything were suspended together. But, I've got a couple quarts of my old mix left so it'll be a while. It's thicker and boogers a bit but it's much better than this thin sh|t everyone seems to love.



cpinkhouse said:


> Okay. So what is the likely lifespan of my 5 oz xanthanized OSS?? We're having a relatively hot, humid Summer up here so far...


I get 3-4 months with xantham gum. Keep checking your tires. You may notice, as I do, when I pick the bike up to put it on the rack that one or both wheels may roll with one spot to the bottom. Likely a big booger. I never pop the bead to put more in and HATE having to to remove a booger so I'll leave it in there for a long time. I had one that was so big that when you squeezed the tire in that location it actually felt like a solid tire.



GR1822 said:


> I'm ready to make a new batch of sealant this weekend, and was planning to use this recipe. Definitely will now!


Anthony, since we're in the same city, my mix is currently:

OSS v1f
16 oz PG
26 oz RO water
32 oz latex
4 oz ammonia
1/2 cup rubber crumb
bunch of Great Dane hair

The absence of the xantham gum makes it very watery. And you'll notice that's TWO tubs of latex. After the initial batch that I followed from someone else's recipe it was extremely watery. My thought was if it's that watery there can't be enough latex to actually work so went back to Michael's and got another tub. I've gotten numerous punctures that wouldn't seal with this batch. Punctures that look to be just like any other that past batches have sealed without a second thought. In my dumb, little mind, this lends credibility to my theory that too watery is no good. Sure, it might not booger but if it won't seal then what's the point.

You'll notice that mine has much less water and PG and twice the latex. And I think it's still too runny. But, I'm definitely in the minority with my belief and lack of success with the thin stuff. I will be eagerly awaiting your experience in the same locale with the thinner mix. Maybe I screwed something up and didn't even realize it?


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

Mike, I had sent that PM prior to combfilter's post. 

I can't bring myself to read through this thread again this morning, where did you pick up the PG here in town?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

GR1822 said:


> Mike, I had sent that PM prior to combfilter's post. I can't bring myself to read through this thread again this morning, where did you pick up the PG here in town?


I didn't even look for the PG locally. Amazon.com.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I am not thinking the polenta is going to work. Corn stays hard when soaked in liquid, but polenta is basically spaghetti. I am thinking that if you soak polenta in liquid for a while it will soften up and eventually turn into very fine wheat flour. I hope I am wrong, but either way we are doing science.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

Well crap. I was all excited to mix up some new brew today. I can't find PG locally to same my life, and the local Michaels doesn't carry the latex. 
I ordered the PG, and will hit up Hobby Lobby Monday for the latex and Walmart for the ammonia; mixing will have to wait until Friday.

FYI: cheapest I could find PG was $21 for 1/2 gallon on ebay including shipping. 1 2 Half Gallon Propylene Glycol PG USP Kosher Grade | eBay
That is cheaper per oz than I could get it from Amazon. I'm not an Amazon Prime member, shipping might be free for if you are.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> I am not thinking the polenta is going to work. Corn stays hard when soaked in liquid, but polenta is basically spaghetti. I am thinking that if you soak polenta in liquid for a while it will soften up and eventually turn into very fine wheat flour. I hope I am wrong, but either way we are doing science.


Polenta IS cornmeal. Just cornmeal that's ground course by Italians... Or people pretending to be Italians.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Who knew? My wife always told me it was very fine pieces of spaghetti. Although in her defense, I did notice that Wikipedia said it was originally made from many different grains before Europe discovered corn.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

GR1822 said:


> Well crap. I was all excited to mix up some new brew today. I can't find PG locally to same my life, and the local Michaels doesn't carry the latex.
> I ordered the PG, and will hit up Hobby Lobby Monday for the latex and Walmart for the ammonia; mixing will have to wait until Friday.


I haven't found a Michael's that didn't carry the latex yet. I have, however, been to three stores in one day and all of them were out of it


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

This is the 2nd time the store @ I-17/Peoria has said they don't carry it. When I've bought it before from Michaels, it was next to the glues and Hodge Podge. I didn't see a place tag for it even. 

Last time I got it was at Hobby Lobby, the manager I talked to said they only keep 1 on hand.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

GR1822 said:


> This is the 2nd time the store @ I-17/Peoria has said they don't carry it. When I've bought it before from Michaels, it was next to the glues and Hodge Podge. I didn't see a place tag for it even. Last time I got it was at Hobby Lobby, the manager I talked to said they only keep 1 on hand.


Interesting. I've not been to that one but the store a mile from my house off Northern & 91st does. Avondale does. Tempe Marketplace does. Bell & 59th (or 67th, can't remember) does. If you are traveling about try any of those. Not sure where to look for PG so I didn't even bother researching it. I'm sure it would be more expensive than Amazon, though.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

doismellbacon said:


> Polenta IS cornmeal. Just cornmeal that's ground course by Italians... Or people pretending to be Italians.


Some Googling shows that, depending on the source, Polenta is coarser than Corn Meal (good in my mind). But, there are different grades of Corn Meal as well. I think I got the "fine" stuff 'cause it's like powder. May have to look for Coarse or Polenta. Grits are mentioned a lot as very similar to Polenta. Never had grits so no idea what that means.


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## drwx (Jun 4, 2011)

big0mike said:


> Some Googling shows that, depending on the source, Polenta is coarser than Corn Meal (good in my mind). But, there are different grades of Corn Meal as well. I think I got the "fine" stuff 'cause it's like powder. May have to look for Coarse or Polenta. Grits are mentioned a lot as very similar to Polenta. Never had grits so no idea what that means.


Mmmm grits.

--
Stephen


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Time for a recap!

The basics of a sealant mix are:

1: Latex! Mold Builder Latex is the most common source of this, available from hobby stores and anyone else that supports casting/copying of objects. There are some variations, but you want raw latex stabilized with ammonia.

2: Chunkulations! I'd like to say "we", but I have come to the conclusion that chunkulation comes in two forms; Fibers and irregular rough chunks of various sizes. Latex itself is actually the finest of chunks, being the glue that sticks everything together. Glitter, which is little flat plates, does not work. The plates move edge-on like a knife rather than like a flat plate (where they might do some good).

The original chunkulation is Tubeless Slime, which contains fibers and rubber crumb in a carrier fluid of PG/Water. Folks have experimented with many types of fibers, such as dryer lint and/or dog hair - and some copy the NoTubes approach and do not use fiber. YMMV. Irregular Chunks are currently either cornmeal (different sizes from almost flour fine to fairly coarse - polenta/grits) or rubber crumb. If your IC's are too big you will have problems injecting thru a valvestem.

3: Carrier fluid! This is a blend of water and some Evaporation Inhibiting/Freezing Point Lowering Compound. The water should be distilled, deionized, or ultrapure. The EI/FPLC can be most any kind of antifreeze stuff, but USP Propylene Glycol is currently the best choice. Glycerin/Glycerol is another "pure" possibility, but automotive antifreeze in it's many forms works ( RV antifreeze (50/50 water PG blend), NonTox antifreeze (PG), or Ethylene Glycol (old school, green or orange)). 

Once you decide on your Carrier Fluid (CF), you have to get the "viscosity" right (how thick/thin to get it). Glycerin/Glycerol is pretty thick and needs more water to dilute. Xanthan gum has been used to thicken things up (mostly to hold chunkulations in suspension), but may cause coagulation/boogering. Also, adding fibers really thickens things up as well. A little bit of dryer lint can make a watery mix turn the consistency of mud.

Ammonia! This helps keep the latex liquid longer - but even the strongest you get is only about 10% ammonia in water. Clear ammonia (cleaning section) is about 1-2%. Use this to replace some of the water in your mix.

Mixing sequence - 

NOTE! Premix your Carrier Fluid! Most of the EI/FPLC's actually react (a little) when mixed and can instantly coagulate your latex!

Now that you've got your CF ready, and let it sit for at least long enough for it to be room temp (not warm to the touch), you're ready to add in your chunks. Ideally, you would have all your chunkulation mixed with latex and then just dilute them with CF, but latex is sticky glop. I would mix latex 3:1 with CF, then add whatever chunks you plan on, then add more premixed CF to reach a desired consistency - I like a consistency just a bit thicker than Half'N'Half, but some want very watery. Experimentation with very thick mixes showed no improvement, and actually a shorter life.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Excellent summary.


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

I have seen both TPS-04 and TPS-01 Polypropylene Strapping Tape, as well as the 8896 Scotch Tape used by some of you on this website. The 04 says Appliance Grade and the 01 is listed as Light Duty. I assume the Appliance Grade is better. Any thoughts on whether the TPS-04 vs. 8896 Scotch brand is better? They all look to be 24mm. 
thanks.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^It's mostly a color choice, they both have the same adhesive, I use the black light duty. I will probably get the ts04 next time. Don't know about the Scotch product.


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## cpinkhouse (Aug 13, 2013)

As far as I could tell, the bulk cornmeal I used was raw and uncooked. Though, the Pastene brand polenta was precooked. There was talk a while back about pros and cons. I remember a post that showed water absorption of precooked was much higher. I sat them both in DI water overnight.
Was there ever any consensus around raw vs. precooked product?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Raw for me.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> Corn stays hard when soaked in liquid, but polenta is basically spaghetti. I am thinking that if you soak polenta in liquid for a while it will soften up and eventually turn into very fine wheat flour.


Uh... polenta is corn meal.


yourdaguy said:


> I hope I am wrong,


you are, which isn't uncommon when you completely make s**t up.


yourdaguy said:


> but either way we are doing science.


Not hardly.
If I cared I'd ask why you are compelled to spew something even when you have no idea what you're talking about. At those times most people keep their mouths shut. :nonod:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Again, mf contributes to the conversation. I already said that my wife had told me a long time ago the bad information that polenta was wheat. And according to Wikipedia polenta used to be made of other grains before Italy discovered corn


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

meltingfeather said:


> If I cared I'd ask why you are compelled to spew something even when you have no idea what you're talking about. At those times most people keep their mouths shut. :nonod:


Jesus Christ, Francis. Lighten up.

From TapaTalk on my Note 3


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> Again, mf contributes to the conversation


Unfortunately it's because every time I see a post of yours it is blatant BS.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

big0mike said:


> Jesus Christ, Francis. Lighten up.
> 
> From TapaTalk on my Note 3


Siddhartha Gautama, Dave. Get serious. :arf:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Well it took me about 2 seconds to find an independent source of data on belt friction.

Chain drive or belt drive: who's faster? | Cyclingnews.com


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

deleted with apologies for the derailment :blush:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

And if you read the article they only tensioned the belt to 2lb not the recommended 85lb which would have caused much more friction. This does appear to be the old design, but the new design would have at lease as much friction at 2lb as the old design since it has more surfaces rubbing, and I believe that even the new design has a recommended tension of more than 2 lb.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

deleted with apologies for the derailment... didn't realize this was cross-posted :blush:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Well I thought the current Gates recommendation was for less tension, but I have googled several times and they all keep coming up with the 85 figure for heavier riders and 55 for lightweights.

DBO Bike: Tech: Setting Correct Belt Drive Tension

http://www.carbondrivesystems.com/~...ates-Carbon-Drive-Tension-Recommendations.pdf

I really thought that they lowered the spec, but maybe not. Anyway, the way Gates measures frictional losses I am sure is in the actual belt. In the real world you have to account for any frictional losses due to the bearings being under load. So now that all you guys have made me research this more deeply, I am further convinced that the Gates system, which I had great hopes for is a piece of ****. I am changing my opinion from acceptable in some situations, to unacceptable until someone shows me some really low tension specs from Gates. I run my SS chains loose enough that you can barely discern sag which makes them very efficient and is super easy on the bearings in the bottom bracket and wheel.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Good point MF, the reason the efficiency picks up under load for the belt comparatively, is the high tension is somewhat lessened due to flex of the chainstay. This makes perfect sense. So during times of extreme mashing, the belt is almost as efficient, but the rest of the time it sucks.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

From the article:

Out of curiosity, Smith also ran the tests with zero preload, and it's here that the results get really interesting. The chain drive exhibits almost no friction when there's no preload applied, while the belt still eats up 1.73 watts.

I run my chains per this spec so I have through experience found a drive train configuration with "almost no friction"

Thank you MF for actually adding something to this thread instead of just calling people idiots and saying that they are just conjecturing all the time.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

deleted with apologies for the derailment... didn't realize when responding that this had been cross-posted from another thread. :blush:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Come on MF, he did not say frictionless, he said almost no friction. And yes, you did not call anyone in particular an idiot, but you do disparage many people to that point in many threads. 

As to the Johns Hopkins studies to which you refer, I have not read them and I am not familiar with the procedures involved, but unless JH also studied Gates Belts, I don't know that they are germane to this conversation. However, if you would post a linc, I am very interested to see what JH has to say about friction in bicycle drive lines.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

deleted with apologies for the derailment... didn't realize when responding that this had been cross-posted from another thread. :blush:


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Why are ya'll grumpy folk discussing drive friction in the tubeless sealant thread?

Get a room!


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

wadester said:


> Why are ya'll grumpy folk discussing drive friction in the tubeless sealant thread?
> 
> Get a room!


I think dingleberry got his wires crossed and I responded w/out realizing it b/c there's a parallel discussion about belt drives. :arf:


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Ok, so JH found that chain drive was 98.6 percent efficient. So instead of me saying that a chain drive is 98% efficient, I should now round that to 99 % efficient? I will update my spiel.

The JH study did not mention the bearings so I am assuming from the article that the increase in tension increasing the efficiency was only measuring the chain/sprockets based on what was said and the bearings were eliminated as a variable. In the real world, we have to be cognizant of the bearing loadings too. Additionally, it looked like from the picture that they were using a new chain. Typical error from someone that has never ridden a bike and is a researcher. Real chains start stretching the moment you install them. New sprockets and chains mesh perfectly and increasing the tension would probably have little effect on the meshing. Try that with a chain that has 200 miles on it. Also, this study that is over 15 years old, in my humble opinion had a lot of ifs'. So the CyclingNews experiment that is about a year old with the current technology says that a chain with no tension is almost 100% efficient (maybe they meant 98.6) and a 15 year old study (the JH study was done in 1999) that was done before cellphones were invented with all new parts and probably eliminated bearing efficiency says that increasing tension is more efficient. Well I have done real world testing and when I make my chain tight on my single speeds the overall efficiency goes down and I can tell you that from my butt dyno! Also, you site a study that says that increasing tension is more efficient for chains and the question is whether more tension is more efficient for belts.

If you want to run your chains tight, then go ahead; I will run mine loose. That is not the point of this thread. I complimented you for contributing, but you are again resorting to your normal obfuscation/confusion/BS/take them off the topic spiel.

I come here to learn and I readily admit when I am wrong (as in the modern definition of Polenta), but you somehow come here to dominate not just me, but many of the posters. If someone posts something that is not in conjunction with what you know, instead of telling the internet that they are an idiot (in so many words); just post what you think is the correct information


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Sorry Wadester. We got crossed up. MF gets certain people going.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Just go away. This thread was very congenial and cooperative, creative and informative until you arrived with your bile and vitriol.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Well, I went to refill my tires this morning and did the squeeze test only to find two enormous boogers, one in each tire. Figured if I'm gonna have to open it up to pull the boogers (and likely have to spend hours getting them to reseal) I may as well put a new blend in...

16 oz PG
32 oz RO water
2 oz ammonia
1 teaspoon xantham gum
½ cup corn meal
Handful of Dane hair

Mixed all together and let sit to cool down and mixed in 16 oz of latex. I actually tried 16 oz water first but it was too thick so I added more water. I think 32 oz is a good consistency.

Was pleasantly surprised with the corn meal. I got the off the shelf variety which was not too different from flour. I didn't think it would do sh|t but after mixing I could see it clumping together slightly so I think it may work as intended.

And, yes, I know xantham gum is believed to cause boogering. I've witnessed it myself plenty. This is a simple experiment to see if the boogering is due to latex + rubber crumb + xantham or just latex + rubber crumb working as the two ingredients must.

One last attempt at trying to keep everything in suspension. Worst case I get big boogers. Just like now. But, this is thicker so it'll actually work.


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## cpinkhouse (Aug 13, 2013)

A hundred miles on my newly tubeless wheels...
Besides an initial hisser at an Orange Seal valve, which was immediately remedied by tightening the nut over the o-ring, all systems are go. Zero weeping, air bleeds, burps or ANYthing. More importantly - ZERO FEAR of pinch flats!
I always tended toward less air pressure, riding a fully rigid Kona, but now I'm confidently down to 21psi front and 24 psi rear and life couldn't be better! I am an ecstatic OSS convert! Thanks y'all!!
I will be sharing this recipe far and wide with fellow riders who 1) are on the fence about tubeless and 2) don't wanna be sucka consumers...


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

big0mike said:


> Well, I went to refill my tires this morning and did the squeeze test only to find two enormous boogers, one in each tire. Figured if I'm gonna have to open it up to pull the boogers (and likely have to spend hours getting them to reseal) I may as well put a new blend in...
> 
> 16 oz PG
> 32 oz RO water
> ...


I just made a batch of:

36oz distilled water
28oz 98% Propylene Glycol
_*2oz WALMART BRAND AMMONIA (unk purity)*_ 
16oz Liquid Latex
2.5 Stan's 2oz scooper of fine Cornmeal

In the name of science, I would be interested to do a head to head sealant test. 
One thing that this thread is lacking, is ONE person using TWO different sealants at the same time. 
I would offer that we have many variables that affect how the different recipes perform; tires, weather, frequency of use etc...

Wouldn't it be nice to see how the 2 recipes last/perform on the same bike? No better way to get good data.

Mike--Since we live mere miles from each other, would you like to meet, trade some product, and see what works better here in sunny AZ?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

What is everyone getting with their current blends in terms of longevity? My blend of 1:2:2.3:1 tbs latex/pg/di water/cornmeal isn't lasting as long now that it is hot...last time I put a scoop in to refresh was a month or so ago and it was moist but no excess flowing sealant last weekend when I opened it up. Seemed to be several months in the cooler temps. I may try adding a bit of ammonia next time. I need to take better notes on the timing.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

GR1822 said:


> Mike--Since we live mere miles from each other, would you like to meet, trade some product, and see what works better here in sunny AZ?


Sure, but since I just filled my tires it's unlikely that I'll open them up for several months, barring a complete failure. When do you ride next? We could meet at 7th St early one morning? I've been feeling like sh|t on my rides lately but still try to force myself to get out at least twice during the week and once on the weekends.



TiGeo said:


> What is everyone getting with their current blends in terms of longevity? ... I need to take better notes on the timing.


I started taking notes when I started following this thread but quickly discovered that I'm horrible at it. After mixing my last batch I looked at my notes and they were from almost a year ago on tires that haven't been on my bike in 6 to 9 months. Plus, I HATE opening my tires up so my only clue is shaking the tire. If I hear something I'm good. If not, I refill.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

Just mixed up another batch of this. I'm afraid to change it. Been running the same mix since November. Love it. No bleeding sidewalls, unless a stupid thin XC tire, clean tire insides, quick seals, etc..... Have not noticed a booger problem, and if at all, less than good ol Stan's. 

I've been using the "blue" cornmeal from Whole Foods works great.

36oz distilled water
28oz 98% Propylene Glycol
2oz 10% Ammonia 
16oz Liquid Latex
2.5 Stan's 2oz scooper of fine Cornmeal


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

GR1822 said:


> I just made a batch of:
> 
> In the name of science, I would be interested to do a head to head sealant test.
> One thing that this thread is lacking, is ONE person using TWO different sealants at the same time.
> ...


I can answer this. I've followed this thread for 3yrs and been running tubeless stans setup for about 6. I've done WSS1 WSS2, and the straight up rip off of the stans MSDS aka Theurens or whoever was the smart person to look up stans MSDS and found out he used cornmeal. WSS1 and 2 both worked for me. The problem with them is that 1. you had to use slime (which kind of defeats saving money even though it's a lot cheaper than stans). 2. No matter what tire I used I got weeping. It could have been schwalbe,specialized, maxxis.. doesn't matter I always got weeping on WSS1 and 2. Also, I felt that the mix was too thick and for some reason it wouldn't seem and seal up smaller holes as good as stans. It worked, don't get me wrong, Just not as good.

Now to theurens mix or whoevers it was. I already posted a 9mo review of it a few threads back. I am 100% satisfied with this mix. It's f'ing stans, so why would I not? It seals up well, doesn't leave boogers, doesn't weep, and is cheap and easy to make. It's thinner and typically last about 2-3mo for me without needing to be topped off.

Also, a side note..Not sure if it was your post or someone else, but if you have stans coming out of your valve when trying to seal up a tire,it's not your valve nut needing to be tighten. That should be tighten by your hand and that's it. It's your tape. No matter what you think by tightening that nut, it's not that . Your tape has a fold/leak/bend in it somewhere. Make sure when you put your tape down to really make sure to apply it to a clean rim and press down all tape. Also if you change tires a lot you have to be careful when you pop your tire off the bead wall. When you do that and the tape isn't really put down good there you will end up pulling the tape up.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^truth on the tape/valve stem and generally on this topic. I got caught over tightening my valve stem to make up for a leak and it burned me when I couldn't get the valve stem out for a trialside repair. I just took out the rim strip and added some gorilla tape around the valve stem with a little pvc sealant on the base of the valve stem itself.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

combfilter said:


> Not sure if it was your post or someone else, but if you have stans coming out of your valve when trying to seal up a tire,it's not your valve nut needing to be tighten. That should be tighten by your hand and that's it. It's your tape. No matter what you think by tightening that nut, it's not that . Your tape has a fold/leak/bend in it somewhere. Make sure when you put your tape down to really make sure to apply it to a clean rim and press down all tape. Also if you change tires a lot you have to be careful when you pop your tire off the bead wall. When you do that and the tape isn't really put down good there you will end up pulling the tape up.


That was me. It's not a tape issue. It's a shape of the inside of the rim issue. The 949 Schraeder stems don't fit as nicely into the rim channel as those skinny Presta valves do. I've taped these Outlaw rims at least three times and have never gotten a good seal around the valve by only hand tightening.

The other problem is the rubber around the base of the stem will get deformed once it's installed. Even taking it out and aligning it perfectly when reinstalling it doesn't work as well as the original seal. If I have to do it again I'm gonna take a small piece of tube and put the stem through it when I put it on to see how that works 'cause tape alone will not do it.


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

big0mike said:


> The 949 Schraeder stems don't fit as nicely into the rim channel as those skinny Presta valves do.


Did you time travel from 1985? Who uses schrader?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

combfilter said:


> Did you time travel from 1985? Who uses schrader?


People who like a larger diameter inlet to inject sealant? Or just don't like presta?

Besides, since it's 949 racing, their valves give you 3 more hp - they say so! Weight is not an issue with these.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

GR1822 said:


> In the name of science, I would be interested to do a head to head sealant test.
> One thing that this thread is lacking, is ONE person using TWO different sealants at the same time.
> I would offer that we have many variables that affect how the different recipes perform; tires, weather, frequency of use etc...
> 
> ...


I've been doing and advocating doing this for several years, glad you snapped on it too. I ran OSS and WSS for some time, thinking next about WSS+ and the cornmeal mix as soon as I mix up some cornmeal mix. :thumbsup:

Running the 949 stems too, way trouble free and bomber, less weight.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

combfilter said:


> Did you time travel from 1985? Who uses schrader?


And I run flats with 510s. I also ride trails most of you would be scared to walk. Different styles for each. I've found that most of the people on this board are weight weenie racers. Strong pedalers with absolutely no skills that think 1 lb less weight is gonna make a difference.

I don't care about weight and absolutely hate breaking a bead on my sealed tires. The larger hole of the Schrader makes it much easier to inject sealant than the skinny little Presta valves that plug up so easily. I also have never had a Schrader tube break at the stem. Had plenty of those with Presta. It's a smaller, inferior stem.

Back to the subject, I just realized that the two enormous boogers I pulled out of these tires a couple days ago were from my mix with Rubber Crumb but NO Xantham Gum. That means that Rubber Crumb is a boogering agent for sure. It will be interesting to see what this new batch shows since it's got Xantham Gum with corn meal.


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

big0mike said:


> And I run flats with 510s. I also ride trails most of you would be scared to walk. Different styles for each. I've found that most of the people on this board are weight weenie racers. Strong pedalers with absolutely no skills that think 1 lb less weight is gonna make a difference.
> 
> I don't care about weight and absolutely hate breaking a bead on my sealed tires. The larger hole of the Schrader makes it much easier to inject sealant than the skinny little Presta valves that plug up so easily. I also have never had a Schrader tube break at the stem. Had plenty of those with Presta. It's a smaller, inferior stem.
> 
> Back to the subject, I just realized that the two enormous boogers I pulled out of these tires a couple days ago were from my mix with Rubber Crumb but NO Xantham Gum. That means that Rubber Crumb is a boogering agent for sure. It will be interesting to see what this new batch shows since it's got Xantham Gum with corn meal.


What does the type of valve you use have to do with how extreme of a rider you are or how extreme of trails you ride? What does the type of valve you use have to do with weight? Aren't presta and schrader relatively the same weight?

Did it ever occur to you that maybe you were clogging up valves with all the stuff you were trying to experiment with in your mixes over the years? Dane Hair, XG, Rubber Crumbs, etc. Perhaps giving the stans knock off a shot and you could use any valve you want with no clogging. No more worrying about schrader valves not sitting down right in your rim. No more clogging. Oh and it's goes smooth with an injector on both presta and schrader. I use it even on my wheelbarrow tire which is schrader.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

Does anyone have a recommendation of a good recipe that uses PG antifreeze, latex mold builder, and cornmeal? I'm out of auto Slime but still have leftover mold builder and PG antifreeze from WSS v1 and cornmeal in the kitchen from making homemade polenta and tamales.


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

GTscoob said:


> Does anyone have a recommendation of a good recipe that uses PG antifreeze, latex mold builder, and cornmeal? I'm out of auto Slime but still have leftover mold builder and PG antifreeze from WSS v1 and cornmeal in the kitchen from making homemade polenta and tamales.


Scroll up 9 post to 3266


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

combfilter said:


> What does the type of valve you use have to do with how extreme of a rider you are or how extreme of trails you ride? What does the type of valve you use have to do with weight? Aren't presta and schrader relatively the same weight?


Actually... nothing. To be perfectly honest I'm a little embarrassed. Must have been a really bad day at work but I simply found your comment to be incredibly doochbaggy, not adding at all to the thread, even though it was likely partially in jest. Instead of ignoring the retard comment like I should have I went full retard and ranted like a doochbag about other things that I likely do differently than you so you could make fun of them as well.

My apologies...



combfilter said:


> Did it ever occur to you that maybe you were clogging up valves with all the stuff you were trying to experiment with in your mixes over the years? Dane Hair, XG, Rubber Crumbs, etc. Perhaps giving the stans knock off a shot and you could use any valve you want with no clogging. No more worrying about schrader valves not sitting down right in your rim. No more clogging. Oh and it's goes smooth with an injector on both presta and schrader. I use it even on my wheelbarrow tire which is schrader.


I don't think this thread has never been about duplicating Stans. It's been about making something AT LEAST as good as Stans, if not better, at a much cheaper price point. If I wanted Stans I'd likely try the imposter mix. I'm looking for better. And for us in Arizona with all the lovely, sticky, spiney, and sharp threats of tire damage we have that means more chunks that fills bigger holes.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

When I brought the Stan's clone to this thread late last year (dug up from a previous thread), I understood that many here were trying to get away from Stan's. For me, it was mainly about coming up with a cheaper effective alternative to Stan's for my riding group and I was always happy with Stan's performance (maybe just not the longevity). I agree that this thread should be about getting the best homebrew Stan's-like or not but as of current it seems the original WSS and it's variants as well as the cornmeal/Stan's clones are the best we have for compromising longevity/boogering with hole plugging/sealing. I wonder if Guar Gum could be used somehow..is that like xanthum gum?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Anyone seen this? Maybe for Slime? Some good info to glean I am sure.
http://www.google.com/patents/US5772747


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> I wonder if Guar Gum could be used somehow..is that like xanthum gum?


I don't know if it's chemically the same but it acts same as xantham gum. It's an emulsifier.



TiGeo said:


> Anyone seen this? Maybe for Slime? Some good info to glean I am sure.
> Patent US5772747 - Low viscosity solution which passes through tire valve stem - Google Patents


SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION
A sealant composition especially useful for stopping air loss through accidental punctures in pneumatic rubber vehicle tires comprises:

(a) a viscous carrier fluid such as propylene glycol, polyethylene glycol, or polypropylene glycol;
(b) one or more fibrous materials such as cellulose, wool, nylon, rayon, hair, wollastonite, rock-wool, glass wool fibers, polyester, and polypropylene, or other material of like nature; and
(c) flat platelets or plate-like particles, such as *mica.*​
Is mica the same or similar to silica gel? Is that what we were talking about using several pages ago when someone found the corn meal solution?

I'll have to look into some of the "fibrous materials"...

5. The composition according to claim 1, wherein said fibers comprise 2% to 6% by weight of said tire sealant composition.
6. The composition according to claim 1, wherein said fibers are of different lengths and comprise lengths of about 0.0625 inches and about 0.03 inches.
7. The composition according to claim 2, wherein said platelet comprises particles having a maximum dimension of about 39 microns​
A couple things of interest to note. This patent lists TWO versions. One is too thick to get through a stem so is installed with the tire off. Two is in two parts, each of which can be installed through the stem, but reacts when mixed inside to thicken up.

Seems to me this may be something other than the Slime we are thinking of. Like this is a puncture sealant that seals punctures but is not designed to stay in the tire and prevent future punctures. Just thinking out loud...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Also, there's no mention of latex.

An improved tire sealant composition according to the present invention includes a suspension of fibers and platelets in a viscous carrier liquid medium.​
The word SUSPENDED is in several spots leading me to believe this Slime solution in fact uses some emulsifier like xantham gum. We all know you don't have to shake Slime when you put it in 

Tests reveal that *propylene glycol is a satisfactory suspending and sealing medium,* but that a better viscosity/temperature range may be obtained by using certain polyglycols in the carrier liquid. In particular, P1200, a* polypropylene glycol * ... provides a useful viscosity through a wide temperature range. ... Liquids usable in the formulation of the carrier fluid in sealing compositions according to the present invention include water, polypropylene glycol, polybutylene glycols, propylene glycol, and ethylene glycol polyols.​
There's so many PGs floating around I had to get up and check what it is we are using. Apparently, this patent believes that the PG we use, propylene glycol, is not only a suspending medium but a SEALING medium.

If the proportional content of fibrous materials in the sealant composition is too high, the viscous mixture does not distribute well or quickly over the inside surface of a rotating tire to always quickly seal an inadvertent puncture. Conversely, if the mixture contains too much liquid, there is insufficient sealing effect to block the flow of liquid, and the sealant will not be effective. Preferably, the proportion of fibers should be in the range of 2% to 6% by weight.​
That seems low but I'm not the scientists. I just play one on a forum...

Thickeners such as CARBOPOL ETD2020, CARBOPOL 1621, and CAB-O-SIL M-5 may be added at about 0.03% by weight. DISPAL Alumina, KELTROL,* a food grade Xanthan Gum* available from Kelco of Chicago, Ill., and other materials may also be employed as thickening agents.​
They mention it as a thickening agent, not an emuslifier, so maybe their definition of "suspended" is different than what I'm thinking.

A combination of non-hazardous poly/propylene glycols help to give the liquid phase of the tire sealant a wider functional temperature range during actual use conditions. Ethylene glycol becomes solid at 8° F., whereas the poly/propylene glycol mixture should remain fluid below -40° F.​
Our move to PG from antifreeze was a good one.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

To the mica...that was stated as the potential chunks in Stan's but as a geologist I can tell you...it's not mica...I tried it. Way too gritty and causes bad sealing issues.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> To the mica...that was stated as the potential chunks in Stan's but as a geologist I can tell you...it's not mica...I tried it. Way too gritty and causes bad sealing issues.


I wonder if they had something else in mind 'cause they mention them being platelets. That sounds be me like a flat round piece of material, not a small chunk of rock.

I also noted in reading a couple other patents linked in the footnotes that there was another sealant designed primarily for large equipment like tractors that the chunks were designed in a triangular, sharp & pointy fashion that they actually stick or embed into the rubber itself. Interesting concept...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

big0mike said:


> I wonder if they had something else in mind 'cause they mention them being platelets. That sounds be me like a flat round piece of material, not a small chunk of rock.
> 
> I also noted in reading a couple other patents linked in the footnotes that there was another sealant designed primarily for large equipment like tractors that the chunks were designed in a triangular, sharp & pointy fashion that they actually stick or embed into the rubber itself. Interesting concept...


Mica is a flat plate-like mineral but is hard.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Seems to me that what the latex does well in the tubeless setups is seal the bead and tire casing. Slime was just for hole plugging...hence maybe why WSS was a marriage of the two...latex and Slime!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> Mica is a flat plate-like mineral but is hard.


I could see how that's not ideal...



TiGeo said:


> Seems to me that what the latex does well in the tubeless setups is seal the bead and tire casing. Slime was just for hole plugging...hence maybe why WSS was a marriage of the two...latex and Slime!


Interesting. Except that latex seals holes just as well as it seals the bead.

Since I don't recall seeing the ingredients in that patent, only a list of possible ingredients for two distinctly different products, neither of which are actually the slime we know today, I wonder what the comparison between Stan's & Slime Pro/Slime would be. I know Slime Pro is latex-based but I don't recall if regular Slime is.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

I understand the notion that a larger particle will plug a bigger hole, quicker, but at the same time a big ball of cornmeal and latex is pretty hard to rip apart, and can get pretty big. Ahem...... Stans booger? 

If you rip a 1/4" long hole in a sidewall, nothing is going to plug that. Any pinhole or sidewall scrape should be well taken care of by the cornmeal, in my opinion. Not sure what the notion of bigger chunks is supposed to function for? These tires are so flexible, big holes = trashed tire.


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## golo777 (Mar 4, 2007)

Friends. Where do you buy the latex? Can you buy at any website?


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

golo777 said:


> Friends. Where do you buy the latex? Can you buy at any website?


https://www.google.com/webhp?source...2&ie=UTF-8#q=castin'+craft+mold+builder+16+oz


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## mixmastamikal (Jun 14, 2010)

combfilter said:


> I can answer this. I've followed this thread for 3yrs and been running tubeless stans setup for about 6. I've done WSS1 WSS2, and the straight up rip off of the stans MSDS aka Theurens or whoever was the smart person to look up stans MSDS and found out he used cornmeal. WSS1 and 2 both worked for me. The problem with them is that 1. you had to use slime (which kind of defeats saving money even though it's a lot cheaper than stans). 2. No matter what tire I used I got weeping. It could have been schwalbe,specialized, maxxis.. doesn't matter I always got weeping on WSS1 and 2. Also, I felt that the mix was too thick and for some reason it wouldn't seem and seal up smaller holes as good as stans. It worked, don't get me wrong, Just not as good.
> 
> Now to theurens mix or whoevers it was. I already posted a 9mo review of it a few threads back. I am 100% satisfied with this mix. It's f'ing stans, so why would I not? It seals up well, doesn't leave boogers, doesn't weep, and is cheap and easy to make. It's thinner and typically last about 2-3mo for me without needing to be topped off.
> 
> Also, a side note..Not sure if it was your post or someone else, but if you have stans coming out of your valve when trying to seal up a tire,it's not your valve nut needing to be tighten. That should be tighten by your hand and that's it. It's your tape. No matter what you think by tightening that nut, it's not that . Your tape has a fold/leak/bend in it somewhere. Make sure when you put your tape down to really make sure to apply it to a clean rim and press down all tape. Also if you change tires a lot you have to be careful when you pop your tire off the bead wall. When you do that and the tape isn't really put down good there you will end up pulling the tape up.


I am looking for the stans copy cat mix you are talking about and can't seem to find it do you remember what the post number would be around?


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

see post 3276 or 3266.. hehe.. it's 1 page back


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

big0mike said:


> Is mica the same or similar to silica gel?


Yes and no.
Mica is a sheet silicate mineral that has a layered, plate structure, like a stack of paper kind of. It maintains the thin sheet geometry even at very small particle sizes.
Silica gel is also a silicate mineral, but it is granular or beaded. Silica gel has enormous porosity, meaning it readily absorbs water and lots of it. That's why you see it in those little paper packets to keep packaged things dry.
So they are kind of the same, and also different. :arf:


big0mike said:


> Is that what we were talking about using several pages ago when someone found the corn meal solution?


Can't remember... at least at some point the particles Stan's used were mica, but he named "commercially available cornmeal" in his patent as a possibility for the "aggregate," which I'm sure has been pointed out.


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## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

TiGeo said:


> I wonder if Guar Gum could be used somehow..is that like xanthum gum?


Xanthum gum has a little higher viscosity. Check a post from Steve-S some year ago: A comparison is made by Jungbunzlauer. There was a PDF document on the Web, but it seems to be gone. [http://www.jungbunzlauer.com/media/u...n_Gum_2006.pdf]. See the concentration and shear rate influence on Viscosity.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Richard Muller said:


> Xanthum gum has a little higher viscosity. Check a post from Steve-S some year ago: A comparison is made by Jungbunzlauer. There was a PDF document on the Web, but it seems to be gone. [http://www.jungbunzlauer.com/media/u...n_Gum_2006.pdf]. See the concentration and shear rate influence on Viscosity.


So, what does that mean in real life? 

I assume that since the Xantham Gum has a higher viscosity that means it is a better thickener. Less XG to make the same thickness. Does that have any affect on it's performance as a an emulsifier? Is there a 1:1 comparison of viscosity:emulsification?

I read a little, and understood less, about the shear rates of fluids. My understanding was that a solution can be in one state of thickness but when shaken it's shear rate determines how much that state of thickness changes when acted upon. Does a higher shear rate mean that the XG will be MORE fluid when in motion or will it stay more solid even when in motion?


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## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

I had a brief look at viscosities of pure water. Now when using Xanthan gum (XG), in a 0.1% concentration by volume as suggested by Eurotrash 666, it will cause the fluid to be thicker. At higher concentrations, they will cause the fluid to be even more thick. When in motion, it will cause the solution to be more fluid/mobile.

For interest sake, I quote from Jungbunzlauer. 

"Even at low concentrations xanthan gum solutions show a high degree of viscosity in comparison with other polysaccharide solutions. This property makes it a very effective thickener and stabiliser. Xanthan gum solutions are highly pseudoplastic but not thixotropic, i.e. even after high shear rates the initial viscosity is rebuilt instantaneously. Xanthan gum is more pseudoplastic than most other hydrocolloids. This pseudoplasticity ...eases processing (mixing and pumping) and guarantees a good pourability. Xanthan gum solutions are very resistant to pH-variations, i.e. they are stable in both alkaline and acidic conditions. The thermal stability of xanthan gum is usually superior to most other watersoluble polysaccharides."

With pseudoplastic, it means they shear-thin, but then immediately regain their original viscosity.

I still use use XG in my OSS to a 0.1% concentration, based on volume. I have not experienced any boogers / solids. I will report back in a separate post.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Richard Muller said:


> "... even after high shear rates the initial viscosity is rebuilt instantaneously. Xanthan gum is more pseudoplastic than most other hydrocolloids. This pseudoplasticity ...eases processing (mixing and pumping) and guarantees a good pourability. ... The thermal stability of xanthan gum is usually superior to most other watersoluble polysaccharides."
> 
> With pseudoplastic, it means they shear-thin, but then immediately regain their original viscosity.


Awesome. Exactly what I wanted to know. I'm looking forward to (not really) cracking open my wheels in another month or so and seeing what I find.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Cornmeal....

Can you just throw the dry stuff into the mix? Is rinsing really necessary?

Does it really matter what type of corn meal one uses?


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## tundratrader (Mar 5, 2010)

So my dads mukluk tubeless is having a weird issue. His mix is slime, rv antifreeze and liquid latex. It held air fine and didn't puke any stuff out. Now it has this green anti freeze tasting/looking stuff that is seeping out around the rim. It must be something from the slime that has somehow separated. He broke one tire down and the mix still looked the same inside. Has anyone had this sort of issue before?








This is the stuff mixed and what it looks like when a wheel is broken down.







This is what is seeping out.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The Slime-based mixes weep neon green.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^All mixes will weep, some green, some clear. More of a tire or bead issue. The green mix has fewer booger issues...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

bsieb said:


> ^All mixes will weep, some green, some clear. More of a tire or bead issue. The green mix has fewer booger issues...


I don't agree; my Stan's clone mix (latex/PG/water/cornmeal) doesn't weep at all where my WSS mixes made with Slime did using the same tires.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I got a free jug of propylene glycol after a friend of mine tried it and had severe weeping - after having no issues before. I recall he was using specialized tires in both cases.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I think "weeping" needs to be defined. I don't call sealant leaking from around the bead weeping. That's just a poor seal. Weeping is sealant coming THROUGH the tire carcass. This is common with WSS but I don't recall hearing any complaints of this with OSS. In fact, OSS seems to cure the weeping. That's just what I recall reading...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

big0mike said:


> I think "weeping" needs to be defined. I don't call sealant leaking from around the bead weeping. That's just a poor seal. Weeping is sealant coming THROUGH the tire carcass. This is common with WSS but I don't recall hearing any complaints of this with OSS. In fact, OSS seems to cure the weeping. That's just what I recall reading...


^^^This.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

This is Stans weeping... it's not green but it's weeping. There are a lot of variables, be careful about assuming.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

I've mixed up all the versions of wss over the last 4/5 years, and only weeped once on a new ardent 2.25, (out of 15+/- tires) lasted a day and then went away. my last mix was v3, and am surprised to say it didn't outperform v1 or v2. worked fine but stopped plugging holes sooner than expected. 
i'm either going back to v1 or i might try the stans clone.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

bsieb said:


> This is Stans weeping... it's not green but it's weeping. There are a lot of variables, be careful about assuming.


I should have prefaced my comment above with "For the tires I use.". I realize that weeping with Stan's (and therefore OSS) is possible. Switching from WSS to my OSS killed the weeping I was having with my Specy tires with the Control casing.


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## mixmastamikal (Jun 14, 2010)

Miker J said:


> Cornmeal....
> 
> Can you just throw the dry stuff into the mix? Is rinsing really necessary?
> 
> Does it really matter what type of corn meal one uses?


I am curious about this as well I followed thurens recipe from a few pages ago and It seems very thin. I did not rinse or sieve the corn meal, I might even used corn starch will this matter?


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## tundratrader (Mar 5, 2010)

Excuse the ignorance but what is OSS and WSS?


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## tundratrader (Mar 5, 2010)

mixmastamikal said:


> I am curious about this as well I followed thurens recipe from a few pages ago and It seems very thin. I did not rinse or sieve the corn meal, I might even used corn starch will this matter?


Corn starch will just turn into goop. It will mix into whatever liquid you have. Corn meal and corn starch are very different.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

mixmastamikal said:


> I am curious about this as well I followed thurens recipe from a few pages ago and It seems very thin. I did not rinse or sieve the corn meal, I might even used corn starch will this matter?


I did NOT rinse my cornmeal.

And, I was pleasantly surprised to see it clumping slightly. I thought this stuff was gonna be worthless 'cause it's basically a powder. But, it clumped up slightly and I think it will be a decent chunkulator.

And everyone seems to love the thin mixes. I experienced less than expected performance from the "thin" mix. My current batch I added Xantham Gum and Corn Meal, a switch from no XG & Rubber Crumb as a chunk. I wound up adding more water to the original recipe I had because the XG made it too thick.

Haven't had any failures yet but it's struggling with some spoke holes due to a shoddy or slipping tape job.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

tundratrader said:


> Excuse the ignorance but what is OSS and WSS?


Open Source Sauce

Wadester Secret Sauce


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## tundratrader (Mar 5, 2010)

Lol, ok so I guess OSS is the homebrew, so what is the other?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

WSS is Wade's secret sauce


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

tundratrader said:


> Excuse the ignorance but what is OSS and WSS?





slocaus said:


> Open Source Sauce
> 
> Wadester Secret Sauce





tundratrader said:


> Lol, ok so I guess OSS is the homebrew, so what is the other?


Wadester's Secret Sauce was my personal joke name for the recipe I came up with from reading as many other recipes as I could and consulting with some PhD chemists at work.

Open Source Sealant was the name used by Eurotrash for the recipe he developed? evolved? for the next generation of ingredients - which are less "garage" and more "pure".

I personally think OSS is the community property we're all working on. To tell you the truth, a lot of the variations are from what ingredients you're willing to source, what climate you live in - to include the number of sharp, pointy things there. Also, the hardware you're using (tires, rims, tape(s)) makes a difference.

Wanna do science? Argue with strangers (in a bike related way) on the internet? Welcome to the club!

And remember: "This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic."


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Data point. I recently broke a nipple due to apparent galvanic corrosion with a carbon rim, stainless spokes and alloy nipple. (I rebuilt with brass). Anyway, the wheel had 4 month old sealant in it and it looked good there was an extremely thin skin of latex on the inside of the tire and the tire was still holding air. Most of the cornmeal was attached to this skin and most of what was left was white liquid. My latest batch of sealant (this batch) has lots more water and is very thin. I have only had one thorn hole during this time and it sealed quickly.


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## mixmastamikal (Jun 14, 2010)

big0mike said:


> I did NOT rinse my cornmeal.
> 
> And, I was pleasantly surprised to see it clumping slightly. I thought this stuff was gonna be worthless 'cause it's basically a powder. But, it clumped up slightly and I think it will be a decent chunkulator.
> 
> ...


Hmm. I didn't have a stans scooper which the recipe called for 2 of so instead I used 1/2 cup of the corn meal (went and looked at the can and it was corn meal). Would this be about the same amount? My friend has a bunch of old crap tires laying around so I might do an experiment of mounting up the tires with some of the sealant i made and puncturing them to see how it performs. I will take some pics and let you know how it goes.

On a positive for the brew though it did hold up in my buddies tires for a weekend of downhill racing last weekend and the course was full of jagged rocks.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

yourdaguy said:


> ....the wheel had 4 month old sealant in it and it looked good there was an extremely thin skin of latex on the inside of the tire and the tire was still holding air.....


Someone else said it once before, but I think that "skin" is key ... its like an extra thin tube and might resist small thorns and such. Also seems like it would resist weeping.

no scientific evidence...just seems that way to me!


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I don't think the skin will save you from a thorn.


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## Dirt n Dust (Mar 21, 2014)

Has anyone tried using this tire sealant from Lowe's? $11 for 24oz. I came across it in the store today. I don't remember if it had propylene or ethylene glycol. It is rated for 1/8" punctures (eh). Might work in a brew.


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## racebum (Mar 13, 2013)

using the xt m785 factory UST wheelset with continental protect racekings, no seepage, great seal. very easy to seat, put about 80ml of the conti brand white spunk looking goop in each tire, have had no issues to speak of. 

from what i've noticed, tires are the big part of what makes tubeless easy. some tires are MUCH more suited to go tubeless than others


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

racebum said:


> using the xt m785 factory UST wheelset with continental protect racekings, no seepage, great seal. very easy to seat, put about 80ml of the conti brand white spunk looking goop in each tire, have had no issues to speak of.
> 
> from what i've noticed, tires are the big part of what makes tubeless easy. some tires are MUCH more suited to go tubeless than others


I'll be curious to hear some feed-back about the Conti selant/Protection combo in about 4 or 5 months time, I'm using a OSS variant with glycerine instead of PG on Moutain King and Rubber Queen (now Trail King) both Protection version on UST rims (Easton EA70 XCT).I think I might have had one (1) puncture in front (RQ) one time but cant be sure because I heard a "oushhh" sound for 2 or 3 seconds then it stopped, as if nothing ever happened. Protection version really does what the name suggests. But...its very porous, both tyres (and a previous X-King Protection) all started weeping after a few weeks and the sidewalls allways look like they have moisture all the time (unless you wash the bike) and collect a lot of dirt/dust.
Initially I used around 80ml too and in MK after 5 months started loosing pressure (about 8 psi per day) so I cracked it open and sure enough there wasnt any sealant left, just some moisture.


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## racebum (Mar 13, 2013)

5 months isn't bad, i'd be alright with that if i just have to add a bit every 5. so far i'm at two weeks with no seepage at all. i considered mounting with no goo just to see if these tires would seal on their own.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Had to refill all of it,poured in 100ml this time, but I'm guessing first time you seal a tyre uses a bit more, plus we had really hot weather here, early summer. Even so, considering my OSS sealant is about 4€/half-liter there isnt any commercial one that would even come close in terms of cost. Only caveat is Glycerine is probably not as good as Propylene Glycol restraining evaporation but is far less expensive 
I will try to increase Glycerine ratio next batch or maybe even buy some PG at Ebay/Amazon just to compare.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I hope you continue using the glycerine mix in one tire to have a comparison. 5 months is good sealant life around here.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

FMCurto said:


> I'll be curious to hear some feed-back about the Conti selant/Protection combo in about 4 or 5 months time,


I don't have quite that much time in on mine ... but running conti trail king protection 2.4. no weeping. PG-latex-ROO-ammonia-cornmeal mix. ( maybe BAMFS semi-officially ... oh, no, its BAMFS + ammonia close enough)


----------



## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Foaming.

Anyone have their sealant sort of "sudsy"? When I shake it up it gets frothy...sudsy...foamy. Only issue is that a scoop will have very little actual liquid.

I'm using BAMFS+a touch of ammonia:
PG
ROO
Latex
corn meal
Ammonia

The mix has been sitting in a jar for a couple of months - but it was the same when it was fresh. ( just did a top-up and that's when I really noticed it )

Just curious. Seems to be working fine - except like I said - it can mess with initial volumes.


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## racebum (Mar 13, 2013)

slcpunk said:


> Foaming.
> 
> Anyone have their sealant sort of "sudsy"? When I shake it up it gets frothy...sudsy...foamy. Only issue is that a scoop will have very little actual liquid.
> 
> ...


take a small amount of your brew, few ounces and add automotive antifreeze at maybe 1 part per 10. antifreeze doesn't evaporate easily and has anti foaming agents in it to prevent foaming in the cooling system

you could also try anti foamers for carpet cleaners or pools and see what they do


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Thumbs up on the use of BAMFS...I think this is the thuren variant when you add ammonia


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## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

Feedback of OSS use in South Africa

I used the OSS from Eurotrash:
stir 1/4 tsp. xanthan gum into 1 oz PG
Add 1.5 oz ammonia
stir in 1 cup 50/50 PG/rain water
1 cup liquid latex
1 cup 50/50 PG/rainwater
Chunkulators: A handful of dryer lint and Jack Russel terrier hair
Top off quart container with rain water (about a cup) 
Put 100 ml of it per 26" tyre. 

After 8 months about half the sealant was left. I topped it up and it lasted another 8 months with half of it left. No boogers, no sidewall leakage on the leakage-prone Continental X King. 
Good performance in disused/overgrown rocky jeeptrack filled with 1-2 inch long acacia thorns and goathead. 

In the meantime, I bought a 29er and tyres were issued with Stans. Within 6 months it was dry inside the tyre at he same climate. Tyres: Schwalbe Racing Ralph Snakeskin.

One problem occurred: Once when I added my sealant to a tyre with a little Stans left in it, it caused immediate boogers, similar to latex and PG. coagulation.

With my latest batch I added 1.5 oz corn (maize) meal with half a hand of Jack Russel hair. Used Premier Foods Braaipap. Pretty course meal (0.4-0.5mm). This continent runs on cornmeal and Western donors... So plenty of maize to choose from at less than 1$/kg. Also, the xanthan gum kept the chunkulators in good suspension.


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## jerry_164 (Apr 9, 2014)

I am preparing to buy the supplies to make a home brew I found on here. Is it still a good one? 
18oz distilled water

14oz 98% Propylene Glycol

1oz 10% Ammonia 

8oz liquid latex

2.5oz of fine Cornmeal


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

slcpunk said:


> I don't have quite that much time in on mine ... but running conti trail king protection 2.4. no weeping. PG-latex-ROO-ammonia-cornmeal mix. ( maybe BAMFS semi-officially ... oh, no, its BAMFS + ammonia close enough)


What's ROO?Mine is Destilled Water+Glycerine+Latex+Amonia+Corn Semolina (in one tyre, the other is shopped strands of a paint brush)



bsieb said:


> ^I hope you continue using the glycerine mix in one tire to have a comparison. 5 months is good sealant life around here.


Glycerine makes it much cheaper as PG isnt readily available, would have to buy abroad via Ebay or something.

But I might try some Maxxis rubber after the Contis wear out, just to check if the weep is related with the Protection Sidewalls or not.

Just for the record (haven't washed it for about 2 weeks):


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

jerry_164 said:


> I am preparing to buy the supplies to make a home brew I found on here. Is it still a good one?
> 18oz distilled water
> 
> 14oz 98% Propylene Glycol
> ...


Yep...that will work fine.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

FMCurto said:


> What's ROO?


ROO= typo for RO = Reverse Osmosis

basically the same as distilled for a guy like me...

I've had other tires that look like that too.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm one of the latex skin advocates. I've witnessed the skin working to prevent leaks in the past when I've taken off an old tire that was still holding air and found that there was no more liquid sealant in the tire, but thorns were pressed through the tire casing and were simply pushing the skin away from the casing but not puncturing it. 

The skin formed from the various OSS type mixes I've done were often VERY thin and not very strong.

That got me thinking, so about a month ago I mixed up a batch of "starter sealant". The idea is to delete the ingredients intended to preserve the life of the latex and keep it liquid longer, instead going for something that would form a skin fairly quickly that could then be supplemented with a second dose of a long term sealant with all the PG, ammonia, chunks and other goodies. It's still a work in progress, but so far it looks promising. I've set up 3 new tires with a small dose (~2.5oz for a 2.3/650b tire) of the starter sealant. I had to unmount one tire prematurely due to a f'd up tape job, and found a thin but very strong and elastic skin had started to form already after just 10ish days. I'll be dismounting the other tires soon to see what a month with the starter sealant has done. 

I think this strategy is probably less important for all the new tubeless ready tires that have much less porous casings than the standard tires we all started our original experiments with, and often saw a lot of weeping through the sidewalls...I always felt like those tires would really benefit from a thin latex inner lining. I still think it might have merit even on newer tires that are better designed for tubeless.

My first test starter batch was very simple:
4 oz latex
8 oz distilled water
a splash of ammonia

If it proves to produce a consistent, thin, and stretchy skin I'll start doing this on all my tires when they're new...probably adjusting the mix and length of "setup" time based on the findings. And then following up with a long term dose of a thinner, chunkulated mix with PG and ammonia, intended to resist evaporation and remain liquid long term.... and just inject it through the valve to avoid disrupting the latex skin formed by the starter mix. 

I'll report back.


----------



## mdemm (Aug 4, 2010)

I've been putting off mixing a new batch of home brew. Been running WSS V1 and have had some serious sidewall leakage as of late, especially in my rear Mountain King. Pretty much ignored it as I just kept cleaning the sidewalls and adding more WSS. While running at higher speeds the bike tires seemed to be out of balance. I opened up the rear and was shocked to find "The Mother Of All Boogers" !!! Looked at the date on the container of WSS. It was made in 07-'13. With that said. I had already planned on making the new VSS version using the pure ingredients with corn meal. I'm happy to say, it worked great !!! Zero sidewall leakage... I'll but putting it through its paces in the coming weeks / will update soon... This batch of HB looks like a winner... :>)


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I popped my tires off today and noted that mine is drying up quicker than previous batches. Still moist, but not much free fluid after a month...not acceptable. No boogers. The only difference with this batch of BAMFS is that then latex seems much more viscous than previous Hobby Lobby Mold Builder I have purchased. I am thinking it needs more ammonia and that is the issue. Will add ammonia to next batch (Thuren variant of BAMFS) and see what happens. I went with 2 scoops (4oz) per tire this time since it is evaporating so fast this round.


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## TheGweed (Jan 30, 2010)

I didn't read this whole thread, sorry. For people like me, can anyone give the cliffs notes version of why not just use stans or orange? Thanks.


----------



## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

thegweed said:


> I didn't read this whole thread, sorry. For people like me, can anyone give the cliffs notes version of why not just use stans or orange? Thanks.


Cheaper by half or more, longer lasting especially in high temperatures.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

thegweed said:


> I didn't read this whole thread, sorry. For people like me, can anyone give the cliffs notes version of why not just use stans or orange? Thanks.


McGyver points for doing it your self. cheaper and longer lasting.


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## racebum (Mar 13, 2013)

cheaper by far. at $9 per 240ml it starts to add up if you use brand names


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

McGiver points for me and for my team...reduces our costs and allows us to always have fresh sealant.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

thegweed said:


> I didn't read this whole thread, sorry. For people like me, can anyone give the cliffs notes version of why not just use stans or orange? Thanks.


Basic stans is dead simple to make. I can buy the ingredients in about 10 minutes. This is far cheaper and for some of us that have fatbikes in addition to our other bikes, it makes sense to buy in volume and mix it up ourselves. You don't need any of the fancy recipes here to do this.

Some people like to "tweak" the recipe to avoid some of the stan's pitfalls, like boogers, drying out, stuff in there that possibly helps plug holes, etc.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Just made a new batch of BAMFS but sub'd in ~0.3 part ammonia for ~0.3 part of the DI water..will see if this helps with premature evaporation. Edit. This I *believe* is the thuren variant of my BAMFS. Thanks to thuren for the recommendo on the Ace Hardware ammonia. :thumbsup:


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## TheGweed (Jan 30, 2010)

Thanks folks.


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## Shooter235 (Aug 24, 2014)

I am new to this new fangled mountain biking, Just purchased a new bike after 20 yrs of being off one. Boy, things have changed! 

I have read through this thread with great interest. I have only had my bike for a few weeks now, but flats are already a pain here in West Texas due to the constant fury of thorns. If it's above the ground out here it will stick you or bite you!

I realize this is my first post, but if I may, I'd like to ask a few questions.
1- My Trek came with Bontrager AT850 wheels and Bontrager XR1 tires. Is this pairing suitable for the ghetto tubeless set up? I ask because the tires seem awfully thin walled.

2- I read about several different "recipes" for sealant, but which one would be my best bet here in West Texas given the dry climate and excessive heat?


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

For a first time tubeless setup, I'd go with a tried and true sealant. Orange seal and stans are both good. Once you start swapping tires or get a bit more into it, homebrew recipie. This will give you a baseline to measure your homebrew against the "professional" stuff.

The rim/tire combo should be fine with the gorilla tape method. Just stop by your LBS, and ask if they have any junk tubes in their trash you can steal the valve stems from. If you're buying some sealant from them, they'll give you the valve stems.


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## Shooter235 (Aug 24, 2014)

Thanks for the advice.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

TiGeo said:


> Just made a new batch of BAMFS but sub'd in ~0.3 part ammonia for ~0.3 part of the DI water..will see if this helps with premature evaporation. Edit. This I *believe* is the thuren variant of my BAMFS. Thanks to thuren for the recommendo on the Ace Hardware ammonia. :thumbsup:


Heckyeah!


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Is it "hardening" (as in getting dried up) or really evaporating?If it is evaporating think more PG would be better, if its drying up then ammonia.
Im not a chemist but from what I understand the role of ammonia is to prevent latex from drying up.


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## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

Is it ok to substitute RV antifreeze for the auto antifreeze in the homebrew recipe?


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Is that the antifreeze that is always going 15mph below the speed limit and that parks overnight in the wal-mart parking lot?


----------



## ewarnerusa (Jun 8, 2004)

It's the pink stuff used for winterizing the water lines in RVs. I think it's supposed to be safe for plumbing


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^yes.


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## ryanxj (Sep 9, 2011)

135 pages and counting? You guys are crazy! Much props and thanks though to all the research and science-ing thats gone into figuring this out so far.

Ive spent a few hours browsing, and would say that at this point it appears you guys have things pretty dialed, but it would be really really nice if there was a 'go to' post, website, etc that had all the info and variations in one easy to browse/consume spot.

So, Ill be cookin my first batch this weekend and am looking forward to NOT spending billz per gallon of Stans. My only question is, do I need to mix this stuff in any particular order?

Im no chemist, and I recall a specific order being mentioned a few times in some of the posts I came across but sure as hell cant seem to find it.

Tips and instructions greatly appreciated. Ill be going off this formula:



TiGeo said:


> New OSS (that I call BAMFS 2.0). Mold Builder, distilled water, PG, corn meal. 1:2.3:2: pinch, respectively.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Yes, that one will work just fine.

The only rule of thumb I follow:
Latex (Mold Builder) and PG shouldn't be mixed directly together, mix half the water with the mold builder and the other half with PG. Allow a few minutes to rest. 

I cant remember which one is what but one reaction is exothermic and the other is endothermic so allow some time to let both halves reach room temperature before mixing it all. 5min would be more than enough. 

Presto.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

FMCurto said:


> Yes, that one will work just fine.
> 
> The only rule of thumb I follow:
> Latex (Mold Builder) and PG shouldn't be mixed directly together, mix half the water with the mold builder and the other half with PG. Allow a few minutes to rest.
> ...


+1 to this ^^^
I wasted a lot of latex before this one got figured out.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I mix the PG and water first, then add the latex.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

The New OSS listed in #3355 - no need for the ammonia?


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## raschaa (Mar 18, 2007)

Pics from DH World champs in Hafjell...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Had to crack open my rear tire due to some leaking spokes:

Almost two months and only two TINY little boogers (the second is at the bottom of the sealant). With last batch I pulled a booger almost the size of my fist out after a month or two.









And a nice coating of latex on the inside of the tire.









I'd say this mix is a winner. And it has Xantham Gum in it to keep everything nicely suspended. So, it's quite possible that the massive and constant boogers I kept finding were a result of the Rubber Crumb and NOT the Xantham Gum.

I haven't cracked the front open yet but by this time with the old recipe when I picked up the bike the front tire would rotate down so that the enormous booger within was at the bottom. Yeah, they were that big. So big a couple of them made the tire feel like a solid rubber tire where the booger had actually lodged itself.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Mike, can you reply with your recipe? Thanks!


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

OSS v1g
16 oz PG
32 oz RO water (40 adjusted)
2 oz ammonia
Handful Dane hair
½ cup corn meal
1 tsp xantham gum

Mix well. Let cool.

16 oz latex

Mix well...

The original mix had only 32oz of RO water but I felt it was too thick. So I figured out how much I had already put in my tires and calculated how much more I had to put in so that I knew what a FULL batch would be. I don't remember the amount I added but calculated out it made a full batch actually 40oz of RO water.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I like it. I may try this (minus the hair...admittedly weird me out). It seems we have got a hybrid of several now...my Stan's clone modified by Thuren to add ammonia and now further modified by Mike to add xantham gum! Cool!! I have added a bit of ammonia to my mix and am curious if it lasts longer...my last batch was really evaporating/drying up quickly. I will note that its sealing power is fine; I had several small tears/punctures that were sealed up perfectly.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> I like it. I may try this (minus the hair...admittedly weird me out). It seems we have got a hybrid of several now...my Stan's clone modified by Thuren to add ammonia and now further modified by Mike to add xantham gum! Cool!! I have added a bit of ammonia to my mix and am curious if it lasts longer...my last batch was really evaporating/drying up quickly. I will note that its sealing power is fine; I had several small tears/punctures that were sealed up perfectly.


I don't recall seeing any spots on the tire that were obvious seals so nothing to confirm it works well but I'd assume it does.

It also just occurred to me that the two small boogers that formed just might have been ALL the corn meal boogered up? I don't know how much actual corn meal would be in each 4oz I inject in the tire but that could be a possibility. But, maybe not. Considering the size of the boogers I'd pulled out of old batches these were nearly incredibly small.

I'll have to pull out my nail board and see how well the sealant works :thumbsup:


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I get them sometimes (small boogers) and they are stuck to the casing...I always figured those were sealed punctures.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

doismellbacon said:


> I'm one of the latex skin advocates. I've witnessed the skin working to prevent leaks in the past when I've taken off an old tire that was still holding air and found that there was no more liquid sealant in the tire, but thorns were pressed through the tire casing and were simply pushing the skin away from the casing but not puncturing it.
> 
> The skin formed from the various OSS type mixes I've done were often VERY thin and not very strong.
> 
> ...


How about just painting the inside of a new tire with straight up latex? (or slightly watered down latex)

Might not be needed in all cases, but could help porous tires. I guess that's like adding a latex tube, so not very weight weenie...but...dunno. just a thought.


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## abevern (Apr 21, 2009)

slcpunk said:


> How about just painting the inside of a new tire with straight up latex? (or slightly watered down latex)


I paint watered down latex onto the bead before seating the tire. I find it essentially glues the tire onto bead and reduces the chance of burping.

If I had a particularly porous tyre I would definitely consider painting the I inside with the same.


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## JF_ (Mar 9, 2013)

Readup somewhere bout using painters caluk instead of Mold Builder. Had a case of Acrylic Latex Caulk with Silicone just lying around my garage. I mixed up my brew with Caulk, Windex, Anti Freeze, and some water. 2 weeks no flats  all ingredients i found in my garage  cost = $ZERO$


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## synnie (Oct 14, 2006)

Readup somewhere bout using painters caluk instead of Mold Builder. Had a case of Acrylic Latex Caulk with Silicone just lying around my garage. I mixed up my brew with Caulk, Windex, Anti Freeze, and some water. 2 weeks no flats  all ingredients i found in my garage  cost = $ZERO$[/QUOTE]

What ratioes are you using?


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## JF_ (Mar 9, 2013)

synnie, I used

1 Part Caulk (1 tube of caulk) 
1 Part Anti freeze
2 Parts Water
3oz Windex with Ammonia D

I first dissolved caulk in water, then mixed rest of stuff in.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

What else is in the caulk besides latex?


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## JF_ (Mar 9, 2013)

TiGeo said:


> What else is in the caulk besides latex?


To answer your question, I think silicone would be the other ingredient. I found link to MSDS if you wanna see all the ingredients. http://www.dap.com/docs/msds/10002.pdf top PIC show sharp object in tire, the second Pic is after i removed it. took about 2-3 seconds to seal.


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## jhymel (May 27, 2009)

GR1822 How did the Walmart brand of ammonia work in your last mix? I can't find 10% here so I'm hoping regular clear ammonia will work.


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

jhymel said:


> GR1822 How did the Walmart brand of ammonia work in your last mix? I can't find 10% here so I'm hoping regular clear ammonia will work.


So far, so good. I think it may be 2‰, and I added 2x what was called for in theron's recipe. 
I'll have to check when I get home on the concentration and amount I used and report back.


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## jhymel (May 27, 2009)

GR1822 said:


> So far, so good. I think it may be 2‰, and I added 2x what was called for in theron's recipe.
> I'll have to check when I get home on the concentration and amount I used and report back.


That's good news. Did you reduce the amount of water to compensate for the extra ammonia? Thanks


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

jhymel said:


> GR1822 How did the Walmart brand of ammonia work in your last mix? I can't find 10% here so I'm hoping regular clear ammonia will work.





GR1822 said:


> So far, so good. I think it may be 2‰, and I added 2x what was called for in theron's recipe.
> I'll have to check when I get home on the concentration and amount I used and report back.





jhymel said:


> That's good news. Did you reduce the amount of water to compensate for the extra ammonia? Thanks


I take back what I said.

Looking at the ammonia bottle, and what I wrote on my jug of sealant, here is what I did.

36oz distilled water
28oz propylene Glycol
2oz ammonia (Walmart's great value brand, no concentration, ingredients are: ammonia hydroxide, surfactant)
16oz mold builder latex
2.5x 1/4 cup scooper of cornmeal

It's been working fine for me


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## GR1822 (Jun 23, 2009)

big0mike said:


> It also just occurred to me that the two small boogers that formed just might have been ALL the corn meal boogered up? I don't know how much actual corn meal would be in each 4oz I inject in the tire but that could be a possibility. But, maybe not. Considering the size of the boogers I'd pulled out of old batches these were nearly incredibly small.:


I don't think the cornmeal boogers. I have a tire that got a big sidewall slice hanging in my garage. The inside is like 60 grit sandpaper after a good sanding; the cornmeal is well dispersed throughout the tire. I put a tube in the tire after I sliced it and rode that way for a few weeks, so the sealant was pressed all over the inside of the tire, not able to pool when I wasn't riding. 
That may have skewed the results, but looking at my jug of unused sealant, I don't think so. I use empty ketchup bottles for easy visibility. The cornmeal is a big glob at the bottom of the jug, but when I tip the jug up side down, the cornmeal mixes in evenly, like trying to hold a handful of sand underwater.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

GR1822 said:


> I don't think the cornmeal boogers. The cornmeal is a big glob at the bottom of the jug, but when I tip the jug up side down, the cornmeal mixes in evenly, like trying to hold a handful of sand underwater.


My cornmeal doesn't sink in the jub 'cause of the Xantham Gum. It definitely boogers in the tire but at least a 90% improvement over the last batch of Rubber Crumb and Xantham Gum.


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## jhymel (May 27, 2009)

GR1822 said:


> I take back what I said.
> 
> Looking at the ammonia bottle, and what I wrote on my jug of sealant, here is what I did.
> 
> ...


Thanks I'll be giving this a try soon.


----------



## dblrguy (Sep 1, 2014)

Great thread everyone. I skipped about 70 pages in the middle... 

Where has everyone been locating the ingredients in the US? Looks like walmart for the PG, cornmeal, and DW. Lowes for the ammonia. What local places might have mold builder and Xantham Gum? Or is there another spot that might have everything in one stop?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

dblrguy said:


> Great thread everyone. I skipped about 70 pages in the middle...
> 
> Where has everyone been locating the ingredients in the US? Looks like walmart for the PG, cornmeal, and DW. Lowes for the ammonia. What local places might have mold builder and Xantham Gum? Or is there another spot that might have everything in one stop?


One stop is gonna be Amazon.


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## dblrguy (Sep 1, 2014)

For sure, I've seen everything on amazon. Been reading through this thread and wanted to make a weekend project out of it. Amazon is fast, but not that fast. Honestly one stop is not that important, think everything is within 10 miles of the house. I'm not sure what section the PG or Xantham Gum might be in walmart, or the Ammonia... I'm trying to find a local craft store that might have the mold builder now. 

Another question. I know I've read elsewhere that some think ammonia is bad for the wheels, and that stans changed their formula. Is there an opinion on this from anyone using it in their homebrew long term?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

dblrguy said:


> For sure, I've seen everything on amazon. Been reading through this thread and wanted to make a weekend project out of it. Amazon is fast, but not that fast. Honestly one stop is not that important, think everything is within 10 miles of the house. I'm not sure what section the PG or Xantham Gum might be in walmart, or the Ammonia... I'm trying to find a local craft store that might have the mold builder now.
> 
> Another question. I know I've read elsewhere that some think ammonia is bad for the wheels, and that stans changed their formula. Is there an opinion on this from anyone using it in their homebrew long term?


Try hobby shops for latex, farm supply or smoke shops for PG and ammonia, sometimes there are bulk grocery stores like "Smart and Final Iris" in some states. Fallback to Walmart or KMart for others.

Ammonia has been discussed extensively here, do an advanced search for it and post by wadester.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

dblrguy said:


> For sure, I've seen everything on amazon. Been reading through this thread and wanted to make a weekend project out of it. Amazon is fast, but not that fast. Honestly one stop is not that important, think everything is within 10 miles of the house. I'm not sure what section the PG or Xantham Gum might be in walmart, or the Ammonia... I'm trying to find a local craft store that might have the mold builder now.


Xanthan gum will be in the baking section of the grocery store and PG will be in the RV camping area of Walmart.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Not pure PG.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

TiGeo said:


> ^^^Not pure PG.


Good point... I was thinking RV antifreeze.
I'd be very surprised if Walmart even carries pure PG and if they do, it's going to be in very small containers for some specialized use... in the "health" area, most likely, and very expensive.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

You get it at Tractor Supply or similar. 1 gal. Last you forever. $20.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

meltingfeather said:


> Xantham gum will be in the baking section of the grocery store...


Don't count on it. I checked two different "grocery" stores as well as Trader Joes & Sprouts, both of which are known for having hard to find things, and none of them had it. Amazon.com for everything but latex and if I could use my 40% coupon for latex on Amazon I'd get it all online.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Yeah, I had to buy my xantham gum on Amazon. No local store had it.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

big0mike said:


> Don't count on it. I checked two different "grocery" stores as well as Trader Joes & Sprouts, both of which are known for having hard to find things, and none of them had it. Amazon.com for everything but latex and if I could use my 40% coupon for latex on Amazon I'd get it all online.


Interesting... they have it here and they carry it at Walmart
What is a "grocery" store? Is that like one of those convenience stores that remodeled in earth tones and wood and has a few bananas and limes and calls the self a market?


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## random walk (Jan 12, 2010)

meltingfeather said:


> Xanthan gum will be in the baking section of the grocery store


This is where I have found it (Ralphs in San Diego).


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

meltingfeather said:


> Interesting... they have it here and they carry it at Walmart
> What is a "grocery" store? Is that like one of those convenience stores that remodeled in earth tones and wood and has a few bananas and limes and calls the self a market?


Well, you can't pay me to go into Walmart so that explains why I wouldn't know it was there.

No, I'm talking about a real grocery store. Specifically Fry's (which is owned by Kroger) and Bashas which is a local chain with dozens of them around town. Big stores. Not convenience stores.


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## Utahbikemike (Sep 11, 2014)

TiGeo said:


> You get it at Tractor Supply or similar. 1 gal. Last you forever. $20.


This is the last ingredient I need for my homebrew. Actually bought some EG based antifreeze thinking it'd be PG. By tractor supply place, you mean like an IFA store?

If I do end up getting PG based antifreeze how does it work compared to pure PG?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

No I mean a store called Tractor Supply.


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## TracksFromHell (Jul 9, 2014)

I have a tire with Slime Pro in it. About 1.5 OZ to 2 OZ. I like Slime Pro the best ... but I need to top up my tires and I have a half-empty bottle of Stans sealant.

Can I add the Stans to the tire?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

UtahbikeMike, they feed the purest form of PG to cows. Tractor Supply is a farm supply store.


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## Utahbikemike (Sep 11, 2014)

Cool. I'll check IFA. I ordered a quart off amazon for my first batch.


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## thechickencow (May 3, 2008)

I haven't been able to find this by searching the thread yet - anybody test at extreme cold temps to be sure there is not solidifying of the mix? I've heard some commercial freeze at -10 and some at -30 are still liquid. Any advice as I brew up my own?


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

thechickencow said:


> I haven't been able to find this by searching the thread yet - anybody test at extreme cold temps to be sure there is not solidifying of the mix? I've heard some commercial freeze at -10 and some at -30 are still liquid. Any advice as I brew up my own?


Replacing some of the water with PG should do the trick.

If seems if 60% of formula is PG the freezing point lowers to -48ºC (-55ºF).

Propylene Glycol based Heat-Transfer Fluids


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## thechickencow (May 3, 2008)

FMCurto said:


> Replacing some of the water with PG should do the trick.
> 
> If seems if 60% of formula is PG the freezing point lowers to -48ºC (-55ºF).
> 
> Propylene Glycol based Heat-Transfer Fluids


That's what I was thinking, figure out the blend of PG to get the temp I want. Looking to se in the fatty and with the high quantity of sealant required home brew makes sense.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

Hi everyone, Google helped a little with my question but didn't answer it. Back at posts #1509 and 1519 the authors speculated about topping off a tire with solvents to extend the life of the sealant that's already in the tire. Did anyone try it, did it work? I'm interested in using tubeless, but most of my riding is a short commute a few times a week. I am not generally wearing off the knobs on a MTB tire or putting 100 miles a week on a racing road tire. Tires last me years. So a 5 month life of sealant doesn't look like fun, comparable enough to swapping tubes & patching flats at perhaps the same rate. If its life could be extended I'd be very interested. Would it be clever or stupid of me to suggest the idea of adding a teaspoon of household ammonia once a month or so, right into the tire with a hypodermic syringe?


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Using a syringe and ammonia seems overly complicated.
I would use core removable valves, use less liquid to avoid it drying up and whenever the tyre looses more than 7 psi overnight just unscrew the valve core and use a syringe to pour some more liquid.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

Either way.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

I cant say for sure if it is tubeless effect or the combination with Protection version of Continental tyres but I also commute on my MTB and before used to have flats every other week, mostly when commuting. In a bit more than a year now with this combo never had to stop because of a flat.


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## owtdorz (Apr 26, 2012)

Not worth the price and/or headache of making IMO. I just use this:
Reviewed: Orange Seal tire sealant - VeloNews.com


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Price is a win for homebrew bug hassle factor is definately there.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

At less than 4€ /half litre price is definitely a factor. Fun factor (for some) is priceless.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> Price is a win for homebrew bug hassle factor is definately there.


The hassle factor is more in the head. Once you make a batch you realize, "why did I wait so long? That was easy."

From TapaTalk on my Note 3


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

owtdorz said:


> Not worth the price and/or headache of making IMO. I just use this:
> Reviewed: Orange Seal tire sealant - VeloNews.com


Mine works even better for 1/4th the price, won't stain everything orange, and won't give me a headache or kill my dog. What's not to like?


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

One other (rather unexpected) point for home brew tubeless: it appears inhalation of PG vapours have germicidal properties that can prevent several diseases. :shocked:

Medicine: Air Germicide - TIME

Not only it wont kill your dog it can also make you healthier.Go home brew!



EDIT: full article copied here:
Propylene Glycol Safe? : E-Cigs Plus - Wichita Kansas, Electronic Cigarettes plus Parts, Supplies, and Liquid


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## govertime (Apr 4, 2007)

Finally broke down after years of resistance and decided to give tubeless a try. I apologize if this question was already asked/answered but my search terms aren't working out for me...

Can homebrew be added to wheels that have already been setup with Stans sealant? If so, any particular ingredient I should avoid/substitute?

Thanks!


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

So, no advice from the experts on the idea of adding ammonia at regular intervals to keep fresh the existing sealant in the tire?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

You can try it but I think it would have to be diluted with lots of water. I experimented this Summer with adding distilled water with ammonia after 2 months and it is almost time to open some tires. 

Sent from my G3 using Tapatalk.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Just seems like just trying to avoid the inevitable; when they start to/get dried up, dump a new cup of sealant in...done.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Darth Lefty said:


> So, no advice from the experts on the idea of adding ammonia at regular intervals to keep fresh the existing sealant in the tire?


The problem is that once the sealant has dried/coagulated - you can't dissolve it. Adding just carrier liquid (not just ammonia) will help, but just mixing sealant thinner and/or using more seems more effective to me. $.01


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

Hi people
such latex can be used?
Amazon.com: Costumes For All Occasions DE180 Latex 1 Gallon: Costume Accessories: Clothing
thanx!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

cka3o4nuk said:


> Hi people
> such latex can be used?
> Amazon.com: Costumes For All Occasions DE180 Latex 1 Gallon: Costume Accessories: Clothing
> thanx!


Looks like the stuff, although I would buy a smaller quantity than a gallon.


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

and one more question 
if PG is quite cheap
any sense to use only PG without distiled water?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^I would think that it would be too thick w/o water added.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

cka3o4nuk said:


> and one more question
> if PG is quite cheap
> any sense to use only PG without distiled water?


Good question, maybe try a batch...


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

cka3o4nuk said:


> and one more question
> if PG is quite cheap
> any sense to use only PG without distiled water?


I would think you need the water to evaporate, for the latex to shear/harden. I tried a batch a long time ago with just EG antifreeze, no water, and the sidewalls of the tires just seemed to bleed like crazy.


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## nickzanin (May 22, 2012)

Hi - I've never used tubeless before but I'm curious to try it with a homebrew. I've read hundreds of these posts and its overwhelming! 

Any recipe recommendations for a Pugsley fatbike? I have Rolling Darryl rims and will be using 45nrth Vanhelga tires once they arrive. The tires are sold as "tubeless ready". 

I'm hoping for a simple homebrew that will last through the winter. I'll likely swap back to Knards for the the summer.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

This recipe has served me well for 2 years running, we use a full batch in a season or less at the bike clubhouse. Everyone likes this mix the best so far.

32 oz distilled water
16 oz PG
16 oz slime
1/2 cup clear household ammonia 
16 oz latex

I mix in that order.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I like this one and has been working great for me:

2 parts distilled water
2 parts PG
0.3 parts ammonia
1 part latex
1 tbsp. cornmeal

I mix in that order.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

I have been running a mixture of latex, slime, and RV antifreeze. I think I did 1 part + 1 part + 2 parts, but I can't remember. Last night I had a flat and the sealant was slathered on to the outside of the tube. People in the group I was riding with were kind of making snide remarks about my sealant. I think what might be happening is the liquid parts are seeping out and leaving a firmer mixture behind. I haven't located the puncture yet, but it sounded like air was coming out of the sidewall and I couldn't get any sealant to slosh over there (sealant didn't slosh). It seems like Stan's is much more watery than my brew. Maybe that's one of the issues. Does anyone have any tips? I'd like to stay with the ingredients I already have, if it makes sense to do so.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2014)

If I ever open a brewery, I'm calling my first oddly colored beer "Ghetto Tubeless Brew" in honor of this thread.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^like.


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## squareback (Sep 19, 2011)

Forster said:


> If I ever open a brewery, I'm calling my first oddly colored beer "Ghetto Tubeless Brew" in honor of this thread.


With that declaration, perhaps now this thread should be closed.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Quick, trademark that name. 

Sent from my G3 using Tapatalk.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

s0ckeyeus said:


> I have been running a mixture of latex, slime, and RV antifreeze. I think I did 1 part + 1 part + 2 parts, but I can't remember. Last night I had a flat and the sealant was slathered on to the outside of the tube. People in the group I was riding with were kind of making snide remarks about my sealant. I think what might be happening is the liquid parts are seeping out and leaving a firmer mixture behind. I haven't located the puncture yet, but it sounded like air was coming out of the sidewall and I couldn't get any sealant to slosh over there (sealant didn't slosh). It seems like Stan's is much more watery than my brew. Maybe that's one of the issues. Does anyone have any tips? I'd like to stay with the ingredients I already have, if it makes sense to do so.


1+1+3 might work better. The sidewall weeping is probably more about the tire.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

He needs lots of water. 

Sent from my G3 using Tapatalk.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^ Yes. Assuming the rv af is 50/50, adding just water would produce a better mix. And add a half cup of clear ammonia if possible.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

OK, so maybe 1 pt latex, 1 pt Slime, 2 pt RV AF, 1 pt water, and maybe some Ammonia?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Bingo!


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Donkey shins.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

My wife, bless her, stopped by Michaels and found not only the latex mold builder but also Googled up coupons for 50% off one item or 40% off entire purchase. Either puts it under ten bucks.


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## GTscoob (Apr 27, 2009)

Can anyone double check that this should work out about right? I'm trying to run the newest recipe while using up what I have left over from the old slime/RVAF/latex blend and stuff I have around the house.

28oz RV antifreeze (50/50 water to PG)
3oz 3% ammonia - typically house cleaner strength
8oz liquid latex
2-3oz cornmeal

I have all of this around the house and would rather just mix it up than get 10% ammonia and pure PG if possible. From my calculations it should break down pretty close to the recipe below with the distilled water removed due to the premixed water in the RVAF and diluted ammonia:
18oz distilled water
14oz PG
1oz 10% ammonia
8oz latex
2-3oz cornmeal

Ratios are reduced since I'd rather make a few quart sized batches than a single gallon batch just because of worrying about sealant getting old in a container in the garage.


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

I still haven't tried this myself, I'm gathering chemicals, so I'm still speculating. I have a hygrometer and pH strips from my brewing days, I'll use them when I make my batch and report back.

I think the hygrometer might help with choosing chunkulator. In addition to the chemistry concerns - I think you want something that's a little denser than the mix so it goes out to the wall under centrifugal force but not so dense that the fluid can't move it around. 

I'm curious what happens long-term to the corn meal. Corn meal obviously can be cooked in water and turns into grits (or mush, depending whether your ancestors are damnyankees like mine). How long would it take for this to happen or does it absolutely need heat to cook out the starch? What happens to corn meal left in water for a few months, and what happens to the water? Similarly has anyone thought about oatmeal in its various forms, cream of wheat, malt-o-meal, rice cereal, Grape Nuts, etc?

Must chunkulator be soft? Can anything soft be inert? If you were to go looking for something soft and inert for a chunkulator what would it be? Silica gel absorbs water. Rubber crumb I remember reading here caused boogers. How soft must it be?

Aside and possibly interesting or possibly not: I had a motorcycle a few years ago in which I balanced the tires by filling them with Airsoft pellets. This was in leiu of a product that cost a lot more - Dyna Beads. Sealant harmonically balances the tire the same way. Could I put airsoft pellets in a coffee grinder to make chunks... maybe so. Would it be better or worse than anything else? I guess for a start I'd need to see if they float in the mix.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^The issue with hard chunks is that they will get between the bead and the rim and cause issues..cornmeal will get smooched.


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## Liternit (Jul 18, 2011)

I doubt hard chunks would agglutinate as well to seal a puncture as something more permeable and malleable. I made the formula with cornmeal without cooking it, was I supposed to cook the cornmeal? The first time I used rubber crumbs and it worked perfectly I just wanted to give the cornmeal a shot.

Also I understand people stopped using silica because the particles were too big sinking fast in the formula, Stans uses silica correct?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Stand uses cornmeal. 

Sent from my G3 using Tapatalk.


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## Liternit (Jul 18, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> Stand uses cornmeal.
> 
> Sent from my G3 using Tapatalk.


Those white flakes/particles are cornmeal?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Liternit said:


> Also I understand people stopped using silica because the particles were too big sinking fast in the formula, Stans uses silica correct?


Everything sinks without Xantham Gum. My problem with silica gel was because it sank I would get an injector full of sealant and completely plug the injector or the stem with silica gel. Part of that issue I believe is because it's a hard component and unable to give like rubber crumb or corn meal.


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## Liternit (Jul 18, 2011)

Ah ok so the issue is mostly with using the injector, thanks for the info. I was confused with the color of particles in Stans formula but I just found out there is white cornmeal, I used yellow in my batch, the stuff turned brown with latex but when I shake it spreads well.


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## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

yourdaguy said:


> Stand uses cornmeal.
> 
> Sent from my G3 using Tapatalk.


Stan calls them 'crystals' in his early YouTube videos, lol.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

So I hate to add to the discussion with something other than a recipe ( happy with my recipe .. oss/bamfs 2.0 + ammonia ). How do people deal when they tear a tire and get a flat? I've found this can be problematic, as my tire has tons of thorns and other small holes ( sealed by brew! ) but when I put a tube in .... I am immediately getting punctures in the tube. 

Thinking about adding slime or brew to the tube, or buying thick/slime tubes ... my gut says our watery mix relies on air too much to work inside a tube. 

What do the experts think?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slcpunk said:


> How do people deal when they tear a tire and get a flat? I've found this can be problematic, as my tire has tons of thorns and other small holes ( sealed by brew! ) but when I put a tube in .... I am immediately getting punctures in the tube.


I carry shop rags to mop up the mess of sealant when this happens. I'll take one and double or triple fold it over on itself then run it completely around the inside of the tire. If the cloth catches on anything you know there's something that needs to be pulled. If I can't get it with my fingers I used a small multi-tool.



slcpunk said:


> Thinking about adding slime or brew to the tube, or buying thick/slime tubes ... my gut says our watery mix relies on air too much to work inside a tube.


Works fine inside a tube. I put my brew in the Mrs tubes 'cause she doesn't ride much and my personal spare has sealant in it as well. My extra for strangers doesn't although I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't...


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

big0mike said:


> I carry shop rags to mop up the mess of sealant when this happens. I'll take one and double or triple fold it over on itself then run it completely around the inside of the tire. If the cloth catches on anything you know there's something that needs to be pulled. If I can't get it with my fingers I used a small multi-tool...


^ This exactly. 
I'll add that for a really big tear, I now carry a couple of tire boots. (made from an old tire sidewall)


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

HI once again
can instead of pg and disteled whater 
the same amoun non toxic fluid for heating systems (without pg)? (-30 freezing point,anti rust ,rubber friendly) magnesium chloride centrate, as they discribe it.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Ibelieve that would be an acid. Ammonia is a base. When you combine an acid and a base you get a salt. Not a chemist just a hunch from the back off my brain. 

Sent from my G3 using Tapatalk.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

cka3o4nuk said:


> HI once again
> can instead of pg and disteled whater
> the same amoun non toxic fluid for heating systems (without pg)? (-30 freezing point,anti rust ,rubber friendly) magnesium chloride centrate, as they discribe it.


The pg is not used for the same purpose in tire sealants as it is in heat exchangers. Use of MgCl2 would not work.



yourdaguy said:


> Ibelieve that would be an acid. Ammonia is a base. When you combine an acid and a base you get a salt. Not a chemist just a [wikipedia expert on every subject]


MgCl2 is a salt, which you probably could also find on Wikipedia. :thumbsup:


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

How to make brew more long lasting so in evaporates longer
what to add more?
more water?
more amonia?


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

^ This was my goal.
Grew tired if adding Stan's every 3 months. Am now trying a homebrew sealant using RV antifreeze. Time will tell..


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

stas dry out for 4 weeks for me)


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Just try the WSS formula, it lasts longer than stans. 
2 water
1 propylene glycol
1 latex
1 tubeless slime
1/2 cup clear ammonia
mix in that order, stir well between ingredients.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I am still not getting much more than a few months out of my OSS (BAMFS..the Stan's clone w/cornmeal). I think the win for me is the cost savings over Stan's. I agree with bsieb...the WSS seemed to last a bit longer. In itself, I have no issue popping my tires off every few months, cleaning out the old stuff, and adding new stuff...kinda enjoy it and I have an air compressor so this is a quick activity (except scrubbing out the old latex)!


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## Gunnar-man (Mar 21, 2008)

Made up my first batch of this magic elixir last weekend, a small batch, enough to fill one tire. I made it a little too thick and it wouldn't spread out well enough in the tire to cover the bead. (too much cornmeal and xantham gum i believe)
Second small batch I made it a little thinner and it is sealing up well enough. I even put a couple of screws into it and they sealed up, as well as a sidewall cut that Stans didn't seal.

I looked at it last night and after 4 days of sitting in the garage, the tire is still inflated but the sealant where the holes are is still damp to the touch. The sidewall cut is fine until I start flexing the tire as though i am leaning into a corner with low psi and then it starts leaking. I then shake it around until it seals up again.

My question is does everyone elses' batches remain liquid-ish? And if not, what do you think i am short on/long on?

This was my batch mixture:
2 parts distilled water
2 parts PG
0.3 parts ammonia
1 part latex
1/4 tbsp. cornmeal
1/4 tsp of xantham

I am not discounting the fact that I made it in a small quantity and maybe my measurements were askew but thought I would check with you guys before I commit to making a larger batch.

The sidewall cut is not somehting I am expecting stay sealed, as it is around 3mm long and the holes in the tread from the screws haven;t leaked afterwards. 

All in all, I think this home brew idea is a winner


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^The sealant should be the consistency of milk or cream. I would leave out the xanthan gum. How much are you mixing up?


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

bsieb said:


> Just try the WSS formula, it lasts longer than stans.
> 2 water
> 1 propylene glycol
> 1 latex
> ...


x2 exept to say v1 wss has done a little better than the above^^. 
Going back to v1 for my next batch.


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## Gunnar-man (Mar 21, 2008)

bsieb said:


> ^The sealant should be the consistency of milk or cream. I would leave out the xanthan gum. How much are you mixing up?


The first batch was thick but the second was comparable to the consistency of Stan's and I made enough to do two scoops for 3 tires. I didnt' want to make a big batch and do it incorrectly and waste a bunch of ingredients. So, I was trying to proportionally shrink my portions to achieve the same results as a large batch but I suspect that my downfall.

It seals now as is, though not drying out, and I guess I will try making a 1 litre batch and see how well works out


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

ElwoodT said:


> x2 exept to say v1 wss has done a little better than the above^^.
> Going back to v1 for my next batch.


What is your V1 formula, antifreeze instead of PG, no ammonia?


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

bsieb said:


> Just try the WSS formula, it lasts longer than stans.
> 2 water
> 1 propylene glycol
> 1 latex
> ...


Really, that much ammonia?

In what way is that better than significantly lesser amounts that have been recommended in the past?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Miker J said:


> Really, that much ammonia?
> 
> In what way is that better than significantly lesser amounts that have been recommended in the past?


Lasts longer, stays smoother, in our high desert climate. I've gone through three 80+ oz. batches, the riders at the bike house prefer WSS with ammonia. Do your own test like I did, + ammmonia in rear, no ammonia in front, pull bead and inspect every few weeks.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

I trust bsieb's input as he has much more experience (based on those comments and pics) running homebrew - but I worry too much ammonia would get in the way of the latex's ability to harden - correct? Its present in the latex already for exactly that purpose ( to prevent it turning to a solid block of rubber while sitting in the container )

my gut tells me there is going to a balance between long life and "sealability".


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

bsieb said:


> What is your V1 formula, antifreeze instead of PG, no ammonia?


yes, but I also used corn meal. I might try a version w/out corn meal but with pg and ammonia.


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## Utahbikemike (Sep 11, 2014)

I found I preferred roughly double the ammount of ammonia recommended. Sealant lasts longer in liquid. I'm also using conti protection tires that dont have porous sidewalls.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

*Experiment seemed to work*

This is after over 6 months in the tire. I used the recipe with PG, RO water, ammonia, latex, and corn meal. After 2 months, I pulled the valve stem and added an additional 2 ounces of an RO water with a small amount of ammonia mixture and reinflated. While there was still liquid in the tire, most of the latex had deposited on the sidewall and there was a half inch booger that I thought I took a picture of but my hands were wet so the screen touch did not work. The booger appeared to be a very spongy latex that you could squish down like a sponge except that it did not spring back. In the picture of the tire with the latex film, you can see the other tire that I had already cleaned in the background. This film was easy to peal off. This film seemed to help the tire hold air better since for the last month or so, I would only lose about a pound in 2-3 days. I am doubtful that the liquid left on the tire would actually seal a puncture, but if I had added say another 2 ounces of mixture, it might have.

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/02v5dmbsyv9tyuf/AAAghRanB03KDb11wpdRQSgBa

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/v0wafeqkyz3c0su/AAAEI98gKrL8qwuxQ65FyJ1-a

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/i8qkzyb94tmlvh9/AABTfhTU9AnNnVGJD8nUxG1ta


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

yourdaguy said:


> This is after over 6 months in the tire. I used the recipe with PG, RO water, ammonia, latex, and corn meal. After 2 months, I pulled the valve stem and added an additional 2 ounces of an RO water with a small amount of ammonia mixture and reinflated. While there was still liquid in the tire, most of the latex had deposited on the sidewall and there was a half inch booger that I thought I took a picture of but my hands were wet so the screen touch did not work. The booger appeared to be a very spongy latex that you could squish down like a sponge except that it did not spring back. In the picture of the tire with the latex film, you can see the other tire that I had already cleaned in the background. This film was easy to peal off. This film seemed to help the tire hold air better since for the last month or so, I would only lose about a pound in 2-3 days. I am doubtful that the liquid left on the tire would actually seal a puncture, but if I had added say another 2 ounces of mixture, it might have.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/02v5dmbsyv9tyuf/AAAghRanB03KDb11wpdRQSgBa
> 
> ...


Looks to me like you've got a pretty ideal blend.... I'd leave that skin on and keep topping it up.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

I've posted this question before, I hope its ok if I ask again for another round of opinion. Since its that time of year when our bikes might not get used as much ... what do people think - does latex last better in solution ( ie: mixed ) or left as latex?

Is it better to mix up all your latex at once, or save the unused portion and mix it as needed? All the other ingredients are pretty stable ... but the latex definitely hardens and/or congeals and becomes less effective with time. Just wondering what the best practice is.

My current mode has been to try to seal up the remaining latex as well as I could ... but it still seems to degrade with time - generally getting a bit more solid as time goes on. ( I've also tried adding small amounts of ammonia directly to the latex to keep it from "rubberizing" ... but didn't get measurably better results )


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

My experience is that the mix will last at least as long as the unmixed latex, maybe longer if the latex jar has been opened. I mix 16 oz. of each ingredient, so like 80+ oz. total. It lasts until it's gone, more than a year, in one case. I just recently found an unopened 16 oz. jar of latex I had forgotten about, it was two+ years old but looked a little thick to use. The added ammonia keeps the mix super smooth and creamy over time, and probably helps the latex seal a leak more quickly too.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

bsieb said:


> My experience is that the mix will last at least as long as the unmixed latex, maybe longer if the latex jar has been opened. I mix 16 oz. of each ingredient, so like 80+ oz. total. It lasts until it's gone, more than a year, in one case. I just recently found an unopened 16 oz. jar of latex I had forgotten about, it was two+ years old but looked a little thick to use. The added ammonia keeps the mix super smooth and creamy over time, and probably helps the latex seal a leak more quickly too.


thanks. i have resisted mixing the entire 16oz of latex so that I could play with the recipies a bit ... trying to see if I can learn/fine tune as I go. In reality, I am pretty rough with my measurements...and...there hasn't been anything all that scientific in my approach. Just makes me feel better to not commit the entire jar of latex at once!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I hear you on the latex, I almost cried over the forgotten jar. I buy two 16 oz. jars at a time, so far no problems with up to a year old unopened jar of latex. I live in the high desert southwest, a very dry climate. 

For you small batch mixers... consider a mix of just 2 water, 2 pg, 1 latex, and a TSP of ammonia in one wheel, and the regular mix with chunks or fibers in the other, and report back. I suspect there would not be a lot of difference in the typical user experience. I'm thinking of trying a batch next season, it's pretty much xc ski season in the next couple of weeks here in the Zuni Mountains. Anyone making homebrew maxi-glide?


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

saw this today (its old...) think it would work with corn meal?






Not sure I'm ready to punch a hole in my tire everytime i want to refill...but it sure does make it easy! Its not that hard...but I don't have a compressor, so I definitely think about adding sealant w/out breaking the bead all the time. I've had the best luck lately with just taking out the core and using a syringe to fill, but I don't have a great way of getting the syring on the valve with flexible tubing - can't seem to find something the right diameter to fit over the presta valve and syringe tip tightly. _Actually_ I just realized that I have always been trying to fill 26" tires, and I can't fit the syringe inside the rim and the hub when its "extended". It almost fits, but not quite and I always end up slipping off the valve and shooting sealant onto the floor etc. I just got a new 29" bike...so...I may have an easy solution now, as the space between the hub and rim just got bigger!


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## RagerXS (Jul 10, 2006)

I remove the valve core and use a "hair color applicator bottle" that I got locally. Very similar to these: Amazon.com : Tolco Empty Applicator Bottle with Slant Tip 8 oz. : Hair Color Applicator Bottles : Beauty, and Amazon.com: Darice Needle Tip Applicator Plastic Bottle, 1-Ounce, Pack of 6: Arts, Crafts & Sewing

Fred


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

On my night ride last night I ran over something...likely glass...and got a nice size cut in my tread. Didn't realize it until I was hike-a-biking up some stairs and heard the gurgling from my rear tire (it was near my ear). Sure enough...BAMFSv2.0 worked like a charm. Was holding air this morning and sealed up while riding...YES! This is the first time I know I got a puncture and it was seen to work...I am sure I have had them before and just never noticed as it seals almost instantly. BAMFSv2.0 is just my Stan's clone OSS:

1 part latex
2 parts PG
2 parts distilled water
0.3 parts ammonia
1 tbs cornmeal

My "part" is a red Stan's scooper.

Peace.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

RagerXS said:


> I remove the valve core and use a "hair color applicator bottle" that I got locally. Very similar to these: Amazon.com : Tolco Empty Applicator Bottle with Slant Tip 8 oz. : Hair Color Applicator Bottles : Beauty, and Amazon.com: Darice Needle Tip Applicator Plastic Bottle, 1-Ounce, Pack of 6: Arts, Crafts & Sewing
> 
> Fred


cool ... I'll look around for something like that. I don't like using the syringe because the sealant tends to stick to everything and it is hard to keep working smoothly. Squeeze bottle would be better for sure. Or I could go low-tech like TiGeo


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I always just take my tire off when I refill every 3 mos or so...clean out the old and add new...doesn't take long.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

He didn't shake Stan's. Wait until his bottle get low. 

Sent from my G3 using Tapatalk.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

slcpunk said:


> Not sure I'm ready to punch a hole in my tire everytime i want to refill...but it sure does make it easy! Its not that hard...but I don't have a compressor, so I definitely think about adding sealant w/out breaking the bead all the time. I've had the best luck lately with just taking out the core and using a syringe to fill, but I don't have a great way of getting the syring on the valve with flexible tubing - can't seem to find something the right diameter to fit over the presta valve and syringe tip tightly. _Actually_ I just realized that I have always been trying to fill 26" tires, and I can't fit the syringe inside the rim and the hub when its "extended". It almost fits, but not quite and I always end up slipping off the valve and shooting sealant onto the floor etc. I just got a new 29" bike...so...I may have an easy solution now, as the space between the hub and rim just got bigger!


Once the bead has been set for a few rides it will return easily with an HV floor pump. Just pull the bead aside and top it off right from the jug once a month and you won't get any residue to clean out. I think the secret is to top it off before the latex starts to break down, and use plenty of ammonia in the mix.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

copy that - I have had pretty good luck with the floor pump if I'm careful with breaking the bead.


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## Xethur (Dec 6, 2014)

I've decided to jump on the band wagon. I tried stan's when my bike was first built but I didn't really know anything about tubeless at the time. I put tubes in when I flated on some nasty thorns at 2 months and never thought about it again. After reading a lot I've decided to go with TiGeo/Thuren's OSS with my own variation.
36oz distilled water
28oz 98% Propylene Glycol - Going to try Vegetable glycerin
2oz 10% Ammonia
16oz Liquid Latex
2.5 Stan's 2oz scooper of fine Cornmeal

I decided to try VG because someone earlier had mentioned getting 5 months from a glycerin mix. I also plan to mix VG and the latex to see if it solidifies like PG and latex. I've wondered if the evaporation of the water from the mixes allows the PG and latex to interact more directly and solidify the latex causing boogers and the 3 month lifespan.

Honestly the reason I'm going back to tubeless is the weight and feel. I am running a rather heavy duty tube up front to prevent flats and the need to buy more tubes. That heavy slime filled tube has never rolled as smoothly as the tubeless setup did.

Xethur


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slcpunk said:


> can't seem to find something the right diameter to fit over the presta valve and syringe tip tightly.


Have you not heard of this?

Stan's NoTubes Sealant Injector Syringe > Components > Tires and Tubes > Tubeless kits | Jenson USA

Works perfectly. It should, it was developed for the purpose


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## DennisF (Nov 4, 2011)

A regular old 30ml syringe works great:
BD Plastipak 30 ml Hypodermic Syringe 3 piece without needle BD Luer-Lok concentric sterile latex free
My wife gets one every month so I have a boxful of them, but I bet you can pick them up cheap any a compounding pharmacy.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Xethur said:


> 28oz 98% Propylene Glycol - Going to try Vegetable glycerin
> 
> I decided to try VG because someone earlier had mentioned getting 5 months from a glycerin mix. I also plan to mix VG and the latex to see if it solidifies like PG and latex.


It was probably me, AFAIK I think I'm the only one here using glycerin instead of PG, all I can say is so far so good but it was not by design, it was only because where I live PG is very hard to find and expensive when you do.
On Continental tyres (Protection) it weeps a bit on the sidewalls and I'm not sure but think its because of the Glycerin being more "greasy" and the sidewalls being more porous than usual.
Gonna change tyres this month, decided to give On-One foldable Smogasbord and Chunky Monkey a go, supposedly is the same carcass as Ardent EXO, maybe I'll try to order online some PG to run different mixes front and rear to compare, either way I'm pretty sure I'll give a latex coat with a brush inside sidewalls first just to be sure.

BTW, I did find a very cheap provider for PG as it seems at least in EU its gonna be the norm for air conditioning system liquids in a few years, the only problem is they only supply in 25L (6.5 Gallons).


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

FMCurto said:


> It was probably me, AFAIK I think I'm the only one here using glycerin instead of PG, all I can say is so far so good but it was not by design, it was only because where I live PG is very hard to find and expensive when you do.
> On Continental tyres (Protection) it weeps a bit on the sidewalls and I'm not sure but think its because of the Glycerin being more "greasy" and the sidewalls being more porous than usual.
> Gonna change tyres this month, decided to give On-One foldable Smogasbord and Chunky Monkey a go, supposedly is the same carcass as Ardent EXO, maybe I'll try to order online some PG to run different mixes front and rear to compare, either way I'm pretty sure I'll give a latex coat with a brush inside sidewalls first just to be sure.
> 
> BTW, I did find a very cheap provider for PG as it seems at least in EU its gonna be the norm for air conditioning system liquids in a few years, the only problem is they only supply in 25L (6.5 Gallons).


I wonder if coating the inside of a new tire accomplishes anything? I have observed that sealant with no PG (long story ) tends to shrink away from the tire wall. I think this is caused by the mold release agent on the surface of the new tire. When PG is added it seems to act as a wetting agent and it disappears. I have not tried to brush latex on a new tire, and don't have one handy to try it with, but maybe you could take note. I must admit I rarely, if ever, observe weeping since I figured out which tires to use.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Its just out of curiosity,but you could have a point, on second thought I think I'll coat the inside only on the drive side on both tyres , that way will know for sure 

EDIT: What tyres are those?Any particular brand or model or any other "feature" that are more likely to weep?


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## Xethur (Dec 6, 2014)

Yes FMC it was you. I was just too lazy to go looking for the glycerine poster.

I mixed my water, ammonia, and latex today. Still waiting for the VG to arrive, but that should be here by Friday. I also mixed some spare VG I had lying around with latex to see what happens. Its been 20 mins now and its still thick soup. Promising...

Time to go prep my wheels for tape, which should also be here by Friday. I picked up 60 yards of 3m tubeless tape for $10. I only have two wheels (one bike) so this mix should last me a while. This may end up being the best $40 I spent on my bike all year.

Xethur


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Mix a small amount of pg with a small amount of mix first. IIRC pg needs to mix with water first. 

Sent from my G3 using Tapatalk.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

FMCurto said:


> Its just out of curiosity,but you could have a point, on second thought I think I'll coat the inside only on the drive side on both tyres , that way will know for sure
> 
> EDIT: What tyres are those?Any particular brand or model or any other "feature" that are more likely to weep?


Maxxis 2.35 Ikons, 2.4 Ardents, and Surly 29x3 Knards have been working well. Something with a robust sidewall, avoid light sidewall racing tires. When you're buying tires go for the heaviest specimens of the model you are buying if they will let you weigh them individually. The newer tubeless ready models of most brands are usually good, ask around at your LBS. Be aware rim choice will affect tire choice, both the bead seat and the diameter can very slightly by brand. A UST rim will be the most foolproof but the majority of newer rims and tires use the UST bead shape. HTH...


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

big0mike said:


> Have you not heard of this?
> 
> Stan's NoTubes Sealant Injector Syringe > Components > Tires and Tubes > Tubeless kits | Jenson USA
> 
> Works perfectly. It should, it was developed for the purpose


ha, right. i missed that. i'm too cheap to pay $10 to avoid a little mess. ( for something with a cost of like .25 ) I'm hoping the syringe i have fits better in my 29r wheels now, so I am probably ok. need to figure out how to fashion the little hose section of the stans thing...


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slcpunk said:


> ha, right. i missed that. i'm too cheap to pay $10 to avoid a little mess. ( for something with a cost of like .25 ) I'm hoping the syringe i have fits better in my 29r wheels now, so I am probably ok. need to figure out how to fashion the little hose section of the stans thing...


I'll take the convenience of NOT having to worry about screwing with it over a couple bucks. I don't care about the mess, that's why my garage floor is epoxied  Setting them up can be a pain in the ass so I try to remove as many possibilities for frustration as possible. Especially when $10 will last you your lifetime.


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

I use a 4oz. plastic squeeze bottle w/ the end cut off so that it is small enough to fit inside the valve with the core removed. I find it faster and easier than the injector, which I also have, but don't use.


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## Xethur (Dec 6, 2014)

Setup my tires for the first time tonight. Lots of shaking due to porous side walls. The Vegetale glycerine mix seems to be working well now that all the pinholes are sealed.

29oz distilled water
28oz Vegetable glycerin
9oz 2% Ammonia
16oz Liquid Latex
6oz cornmeal

Xethur

Edit: These Con Trail Kings are really starting to frustrate me. I now understand why some of you use heavy thick sidewalled tires. I'm still getting a lot of bubbling from pinholes in the sidewall. I guess I'll keep adding air and shaking...grrrr. Has anyone tried WTB wolverines? And if so whats your opinion.


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## Nivo (Dec 22, 2014)

bsieb said:


> Just try the WSS formula, it lasts longer than stans.
> 2 water
> 1 propylene glycol
> 1 latex
> ...


Just confirming the "1" in the recipe is 16oz of each (32oz of water) with the 1/2 cup ammonia?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The "1" can be anything you want. My "1" is a Stan's red scooper.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Nivo said:


> Just confirming the "1" in the recipe is 16oz of each (32oz of water) with the 1/2 cup ammonia?


Yes... I should have said 1/4 of ammonia.


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## Nivo (Dec 22, 2014)

I am having trouble sourcing clear ammonia. Can you use cloudy ammonia providing you adjust volumes of it and water to get the same concentrations? Cloudy ammonia seems to be 5% (with some soap added) and clear 10%.

Thanks again.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

You probably don't want the soap. 

Tapatalk upgrade sucks. Be sure to rate this bloatware so they fix it!


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## Nivo (Dec 22, 2014)

Thanks. I will try harder to find clear.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ace Hardware ammonia.


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## Nivo (Dec 22, 2014)

Thanks TiGeo. I'm in Oz, and it is a bit harder to find down here!


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## Jem7sk (Jan 17, 2013)

Just curious... I did my first tubeless this week on my new Nimble 9. Stan's Crest wheels with Racing Ralph tires. I thought about doing a homemade brew but since it was my first time and I was in a hurry I got some Orange Seal because I had heard great things about it. I had no problems putting my tires on the rims and airing them up prior to getting the Orange Seal. They'd hold pressure for a few hours. Once I got the Orange Seal I removed a portion of the tire off the rim and poured four ounces in, remounted the tire and aired it back up... All was great and it has been holding pressure for days. Way easier than I was expecting.

So for $25 I've got enough good tubless sealant to last a while. Why would I want to create my own with the ingredients here? What is the advantage? Seems like a lot of trouble getting all the ingredients and mixing them and storing them. I would still like to try this but for such a low cost it sure is easy to buy Orange Seal premade.


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## odtexas (Oct 2, 2008)

Some of us are just die hard DIY types. :madman:
So we seek to come up with the perfect DIY brew for the challenge/help out the community.

If you have lots of bikes or lots of friends who are tubeless, then making large batches of your own brew would be cheaper than buying off the shelf products.

For a rider with one or two bikes it probably makes more sense to just buy your sealant.

Goes back to the ride what you like mindset. Some just like to tinker. 



Jem7sk said:


> Just curious... I did my first tubeless this week on my new Nimble 9. Stan's Crest wheels with Racing Ralph tires. I thought about doing a homemade brew but since it was my first time and I was in a hurry I got some Orange Seal because I had heard great things about it. I had no problems putting my tires on the rims and airing them up prior to getting the Orange Seal. They'd hold pressure for a few hours. Once I got the Orange Seal I removed a portion of the tire off the rim and poured four ounces in, remounted the tire and aired it back up... All was great and it has been holding pressure for days. Way easier than I was expecting.
> 
> So for $25 I've got enough good tubless sealant to last a while. Why would I want to create my own with the ingredients here? What is the advantage? Seems like a lot of trouble getting all the ingredients and mixing them and storing them. I would still like to try this but for such a low cost it sure is easy to buy Orange Seal premade.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

bsieb said:


> I wonder if coating the inside of a new tire accomplishes anything? I have observed that sealant with no PG (long story ) tends to shrink away from the tire wall.


Right again..I noticed after 1st ride on new tyres I had messed the direction of front tyre, removed it and the latex I coat painted inside sidewall was already pealing off with just a single use.



bsieb said:


> Maxxis 2.35 Ikons, 2.4 Ardents, and Surly 29x3 Knards have been working well.


Good news then, using On-One tyres now based on Maxxis Ardent EXO casing on UST rims :thumbsup:


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## Flyin_W (Jun 17, 2007)

... and some of us seek better results. I was getting tired of topping off Stan's every few months. The homebrew I made does not evaporate so quickly.

tap tap tap...


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Better product and between my bikes, wife bike, son's bike, I have 14 tubeless wheels. What you have for $25, I can make for $8.

Tapatalk upgrade sucks. Be sure to rate this bloatware so they fix it!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Because I can make a boat-load of basically the same thing as Stan's for cheaper. Have a group of 4-6 people that need sealant all year, more economical for us. Finally, this is...if you believe it...fun for some of us.


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## Jem7sk (Jan 17, 2013)

Thanks for the responses. I do plan on making my own someday but for now will stick with the Orange Seal... I will be following this discussion though to make sure I am prepared when I am ready to try it.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Man, I'm really stoked on the new brew. On July 13th I put 6 oz in a brand new Minion DHF Super Tacky up front and High Roller in back. I've replaced the rear tire already, those Super Tackys don't last long, and just now replacing the front.

After over 5 months, 3 of which are the hot Arizona summer months, I cracked the tire open to find this:










Still plenty of plug juice with the smallest booger I've ever had from a Home Brew at about the size of my thumb.

I also had this:










A nice, thick string of sealant all the way around the bead that was very stubborn to remove. That tells me my bead is not gonna be popped easily.

We don't always know if our sealant is "working" but I've had no air issues and in over 5 months there was still plenty in there. Keep in mind I put a LOT of sealant in so with you weight weenies who put minimal sealant in it likely translates to at least 3 months with still plenty in the tire.



> OSS v1g
> 16 oz PG
> 40 oz RO water
> 2 oz ammonia
> ...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Jem7sk said:


> So for $25 I've got enough good tubless sealant to last a while. Why would I want to create my own with the ingredients here?


You ever filled and sealed a fatbike tire? 2oz isn't even close...


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Nice bigOmike ... that's an impressive run (5 months). I have to say tire seems to play into that - good thick sidewalled tires will hold sealant longer in my view. Still ... strong work. I don't have any GD hair .... but otherwise, will be shooting to use your mix or similar come spring. ( not sure about xantham gum yet ... only ingredient I haven't messed with )


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Basically this it the Stan's clone add Xantham. Cool. Still need to order some on amazon and try in my next batch. Agree on the sidewall comments; my super-thin S-Works tires don't seem to work that well...I get about 2-3 mos. out of my sealant. Also, how much are you putting in there? I use a scoop-and-a-half (3 oz) per tire b/c I am a weight nerd. When I did 2 scoops (4 oz) it lasted much longer.

Edit. Xantham gum ordered. Will mix new batch over the weekend and try since my sealant is about zero free liquid at this point..been 3 mos. since last replenishment.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slcpunk said:


> will be shooting to use your mix or similar come spring. ( not sure about xantham gum yet ... only ingredient I haven't messed with )


I don't remember who mine is a ripoff from but the xantham gum isn't scary. After a couple of batches with rubber crumb & XG then this batch of corn meal & XG I finally came to the conclusion that my incredible boogering wasn't (at least not fully) a result of the xantham gum. Seemed more to be the rubber crumb and latex trying really hard to stick together since they are similarish materials? Just guessing. Haven't been to a Holiday Inn Express in a while...



TiGeo said:


> Basically this it the Stan's clone add Xantham. Cool. Still need to order some on amazon and try in my next batch. Agree on the sidewall comments; my super-thin S-Works tires don't seem to work that well...I get about 2-3 mos. out of my sealant. Also, how much are you putting in there? I use a scoop-and-a-half (3 oz) per tire b/c I am a weight nerd. When I did 2 scoops (4 oz) it lasted much longer.


I put a boatload of sealant in my tires. If it's a new tire (mine tires are always big, heavy, beefy 2.5" tires) I simply can not seal the bead with only 2 oz. I get it mostly sealed but after a couple rounds of shaking I hear nothing sloshing around inside. So, I always start with 4 full injectors (8 oz) into the stem realizing that at least two are sealing the bead and coating the tire.

Now, keep in mind, I've been bucking the trend of watery sealant that everyone loves. Just don't have any faith in it although everyone raves about it. I think my proportions of liquid to latex are pretty similar to others now but the xantham gum thickens it up to where I think it's perfect. Not watery but not waffle mix.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

Jayem said:


> You ever filled and sealed a fatbike tire? 2oz isn't even close...


This. And also if you have four bikes to fill and one is a fat bike. It gets a little excessive.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

bigOMike - that makes sense as to why you have so much free-flowing sealant in there after so long. With 2-3oz, it is dried up after about 2-3 mos.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

BAMFS v3.0 has been created. 1 part latex, 2 parts PG, 2 parts DI water, 0.3 parts ammonia, 1 tbs cornmeal, pinch XG. A little thicker than not using the XG. Sealant (same mix just no XG) had been in there just over 3 mos. (3 oz) and no boogers and still wet but no real free-flowing sealant...cornmeal visible.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Ok ... so I was also set on BAMFS 3.0 ( or BigOMike's version, very similar ) for my next batch. When I googled xantham gum, I found this article about guar gum. Was this discussed already, why xantham not guar? Of interest, was this statement:

In general, guar gum is good for cold foods such as ice cream or pastry fillings, while xanthan gum is better for baked goods.

If true ... isn't our sealant technically cold?

Comments from those who know more about the chemistry than me?

full article here

thanks!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Guar gum...I brought that up a while back I believe. Its a thickening agent like XG. I had experience using it in an application where we needed to hold open a large trench with a guar-gum slurry (like drilling mud). I had a bag of it in my office for a long time and finally pitched it.

Funny...the article is on the Bob's Red Mill site..that is the brand of XG I recently bought off amazon.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I believe I posted this before w/r to xantham/guar gum discussion..but I believe this is the patent application for Slime. It notes hair as one of the fibers...bigOMmike, is that where you got the Dane hair idea? Also notes mica...I know some thought the "crystals" in Stan's were mica and I wonder if this is where that notion came from too.

Patent US5772747 - Low viscosity solution which passes through tire valve stem - Google Patents


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> slcpunk said:
> 
> 
> > Ok ... so I was also set on BAMFS 3.0 ( or BigOMike's version, very similar ) for my next batch. When I googled xantham gum, I found this article about guar gum. Was this discussed already, why xantham not guar? Of interest, was this statement:
> ...





TiGeo said:


> I believe I posted this before w/r to xantham/guar gum discussion..but I believe this is the patent application for Slime. It notes hair as one of the fibers...bigOMmike, is that where you got the Dane hair idea? Also notes mica...I know some thought the "crystals" in Stan's were mica and I wonder if this is where that notion came from too.
> 
> Patent US5772747 - Low viscosity solution which passes through tire valve stem - Google Patents


I got the idea of Dane hair just from seeing fibers in Slime and realizing how well hair can clog a drain. Thought it was an easy addition :thumbsup:

I don't recall seeing a GG v XG discussion before but I would think xantham gum would be the best for MOST uses. We typically ride our bikes when it's somewhere between cool and insanely hot. Here in AZ it's mostly hot. And, when you get tires rolling around they heat up. Just like a car's tires would. So, you'd want the additive that works better with heat.

Now, if you've got a fattie and you ride in the snow then I'd bet guar gum could be better. Or, if your climate is much cooler. My bet is that more people ride their bikes in temps closer to 90º than to 32º.

Two different sealants for the different seasons? Luckily, AZ has two seasons: 9 months of hot as hell and a mild winter of 50º riding like now.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Come to think of it I remember seeing Stan's videos talking about making sure you shake the solution to get the gold flakes mixed. That's certainly where the mica thought came from...


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Damnitt! I just got everything together to make this, and the mold builder that came care of UPS today from Michaels was one solid plug of rubber. Anyone else have quality issues with this stuff? They're sending another to replace, but it's another week out before it gets here (no Michael's or Hobby Lobby's within 100+ miles of here and the lady at Walmart looked at me like I was a penguin rapist when it asked for liquid latex). Fatbike tubeless experiment on hold.


TiGeo said:


> BAMFS v3.0 has been created. 1 part latex, 2 parts PG, 2 parts DI water, 0.3 parts ammonia, 1 tbs cornmeal, pinch XG. A little thicker than not using the XG. Sealant (same mix just no XG) had been in there just over 3 mos. (3 oz) and no boogers and still wet but no real free-flowing sealant...cornmeal visible.


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

Hi community 
tried several banches

32oz water 
24oz pg
2oz ammonia 
16oz latex
4oz cornmeal

dried realy fast...

tried to go with more water
16oz pg
32oz water
8oz latex
1oz ammonia
2oz cornmeal

and it become to sweat true sidewalls
but not drying to fast 

so ho to make long lasting and not sweating brew?


More pg less water and less latex then first banch?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

What is "dried really fast" mean? You have a lot more water relative to PG in there than I use. I go 1 latex (16 oz): 2 PG (32): 2 water (32): 0.3 (5 oz) ammonia. Seems like you don't have enough PG which as I understand helps reduce evaporation.


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

dries quickly 

first banch was 
32oz pg
24 water


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

cka3o4nuk said:


> Hi community
> tried several banches
> 
> 32oz water
> ...


Sounds like you're dealing with a porous tire, sometimes it's best to move on to one that works better. I think over-inflation at some point can affect tire porosity by breaking the rubber away from the sidewall fabric. What tire are you using?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Dries quickly equals how many weeks is what I was asking.


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

tires are continental front protection rear pure grip compaud
they dont sweat on stans and dont sweat on first banch
but sealant from first banch dries quickly int the tire.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^It's usually more about the tire than the mix, but I have no personal experience with the tires you are running. How old are the tires? What pressure are you running? What amount of time does "quickly" refer to?


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

4 weeks 
notubes runs nearly ....
24psi 
tires are less than half year)


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

You need more PG...see my post above. Water evaporates more quickly. Go with 32 oz of PG and 32 oz of water add ammonia.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

For particulate, how about adding cut up bits of rubber bands?
I assume actual rubber bands, not the silicone "rubber" bands?

For a mica source, 'fine art' painting pigments?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Skip the mica - tried it. Too hard/gritty and gets caught between bead and rim causing sealing issues. Current particulate glamour-boy is cornmeal.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Even super fine mica powder?
Thinking of something like the silicate particles in cafelatex for reducing the rate of flow through punctures, while also providing filling particles. 

For the cornmeal, is it worth it to get a mix of sizes: cornmeal, flour, polenta/grits?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Maybe. I just used some stuff I had in the office that was probably too big. No idea on the cornmeal sizing...look...folks really haven't done the testing to substantiate any of this beyond "I used mix blah blah blah with cornmeal and I haven't gotten any flats." Really need a bit of more scientific rigor through testing different particle sizes with differing sizes of punctures. I just use the cheap basic Kroger cornmeal and it has stopped a cut so in my book, it works fine.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Understood.

For an experiment with varying sizes of cornmeal, from which of the following would you expect the best results:
> take a given recipe's spec for cornmeal, and then process that into say three sizes (original, medium & fine) before mixing it in, or 
> would you use the original amount from the recipe and then add additional amounts of medium & fine particles?

What's your gut feel? (just to be scientific like)


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^If I were setting this up, I would create a base mix (no particulates). I would do 3 more mixes which would be the base mix + cornmeal of 3 different sizes (fine, med., coarse). 4 mixes total. I would set up 4 test wheels (same) with tires (same). I would create different sized punctures ranging from a nail-type to a cut a 5mm long. I would record how long (if at all) it took each to seal.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

what woud fine corn meal do to a puncture that corse couldn't?


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Purely speculation on my part:

_Possibly_: progressively smaller cornmeal _might_ fill progressively smaller gaps left as the larger cornmeal fills in.

Smaller cornmeal _might_ also slow down the flow of sealant through a leak allowing it more time to clog & cure. a la _'silicate particles in cafelatex'_


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

ElwoodT said:


> what woud fine corn meal do to a puncture that corse couldn't?


No idea until you test it. Maybe finer pieces clump together and provide more effective sealing...who knows.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I suspect that the cornmeal particles (or any other fibers or particles, including Slime) don't have much/any beneficial or practical effect. It just sounds good to have some in there. I'm trying wss with (rear) and without (front) next season.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

bsieb said:


> ^I suspect that the cornmeal particles (or any other fibers or particles, including Slime) don't have much/any beneficial or practical effect. It just sounds good to have some in there. I'm trying wss with (rear) and without (front) next season.


I disagree. Stan's isn't going to put something in there (costs money) if it doesn't serve a purpose IMHO of course. I believe they help dam up the flow slowing it down enough for the latex to take hold.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

TiGeo said:


> No idea until you test it. Maybe finer pieces clump together and provide more effective sealing...who knows.


yup
or maybe finer pieces will clump together and accelerate booger formation...


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

TiGeo said:


> I disagree. Stan's isn't going to put something in there (costs money) if it doesn't serve a purpose IMHO of course. I believe they help dam up the flow slowing it down enough for the latex to take hold.


I suspect that just latex will seal as quickly in practice. The chunks cause problems too, like boogers. I have never had much luck with any sealant on a sidewall cut of any length, so if eliminating chunkage will increase sealant life while still sealing small punctures effectively, well... there you go. So I'm going to try it, along with a few other testers, and see what our experience is for a season.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^don't you run wss exclusively? slime has chunks in it.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

ElwoodT said:


> ^^don't you run wss exclusively? slime has chunks in it.


Yes, but I'm going to leave the slime out of the mix for testing purposes. Remember that slime is more than just chunks, it is a stand alone sealant, so I assume the chunks and fibers act as a physical barrier without using latex.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I was trying to do some research into the ingredient list of the Orange Slime, whatever it's called, and I ran across an article talking about a bunch of different sealants, how they are made, what they are good/bad at, etc. It was old from 2012 but in the comments was a guy that mentioned his home brew and he uses COLORED latex that he gets from adult stores. He says it was cheaper but it got me thinking...

Red Body Paint - Liquid Latex (16oz. - 1 Gallon)

Thoughts on this or the similar?

There's no ammonia in it, which I assume is because it's meant to be applied directly to the body and ammonia doesn't sound like anything I wanna pour on my body. So, we'd have to add substantially more ammonia if we used it.

Just curious, does liquid latex === liquid latex? I suspect without knowing EXACTLY what's in the liquid latex one really can't tell if it's equal to, better, or worse than the normal Mold Builder we use.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I don't see how it can be real latex without ammonia. 

Tapatalk upgrade sucks. Be sure to rate this bloatware so they fix it!


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

big0mike said:


> I was trying to do some research into the ingredient list of the Orange Slime, whatever it's called, and I ran across an article talking about a bunch of different sealants, how they are made, what they are good/bad at, etc. It was old from 2012 but in the comments was a guy that mentioned his home brew and he uses COLORED latex that he gets from adult stores. He says it was cheaper but it got me thinking...
> 
> Red Body Paint - Liquid Latex (16oz. - 1 Gallon)
> 
> ...


the price is pretty close considering there's always a 40% off coupon available at michaels.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> I was trying to do some research into the ingredient list of the Orange Slime, whatever it's called, and I ran across an article talking about a bunch of different sealants, how they are made, what they are good/bad at, etc. It was old from 2012 but in the comments was a guy that mentioned his home brew and he uses COLORED latex that he gets from adult stores. He says it was cheaper but it got me thinking...
> 
> Red Body Paint - Liquid Latex (16oz. - 1 Gallon)
> 
> ...


We use latex as an ingredient because it is a liquid that easily coagulates. The fact that it is tree sap that is kept liquid by keeping it's pH on the basic side - with ammonia - is really unimportant. You could potentially use some other substance to keep the pH of tree sap right, but it would have the same effect on your skin.

However, if you read here you will find that it is ammonia stabilized.

Back when Eurotrash was active in here, there was a discussion of other "latex" - such as found in paint and caulk. These turned out to be acrylic/butyl materials, and I recall that they wouldn't coagulate/polymerize as easily? I do know that they didn't get an upcheck at the time.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> However, if you read here you will find that it is ammonia stabilized.


Interesting. I was mixing up my products then 'cause I was finding some on Amazon or Ebay that said they had no ammonia and I thought that stuff didn't have it either. I was thinking the same thing as wadester about ammonia-free latex 'cause I thought the ammonia was the only thing that stopped the latex from being a ball of rubber in the jar.

Also, this "colored" latex says you can paint, spray or drip it on. That would lead me to believe it is MUCH thinner than the Mold Builder we use. It would have to be similar to the thickness of real paint and I'm sure that would affect the consistency. Might need more XG if it's that thin. Maybe the solution, if one wanted a colored OSS, would be to use some Mold Builder and some colored latex.

Just made a new batch today so I'll have a rear tire with v1g in it and my front will have v1h. Decided to up the PG and ammonia and lessen the water.

OSS v1h

22 oz PG (wanted 24 but 22 was all that was left in the gallon jug)
32 oz RO
½ cup corn meal
4 oz ammonia 
½ tbsp XG
Handful of "lint"

Mix well. Let cool.

16oz Mold Builder

Mix well.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Yeah, had my head in my ass when I pulled those numbers together. Way too thick. I went from 16 oz PG to 22 oz but actually used less water than last time. I put in 8 oz like normal and began shaking and after my first round I couldn't hear anything moving inside. Now I'm worried just adding water will make it too thin and not enough latex so I'm making it a *double batch* adjusting everything as necessary...

32 oz PG
80 oz RO
8 oz ammonia
...Mix well... Let cool...
1 cup cornmeal
...Mix well...
½ tbspn XG
...Mix well...
Handful of "lint"
...Mix well...
32oz Mold Builder
...Mix well...


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

big0mike said:


> ... just adding water will make it too thin and not enough latex so I'm making it a *double batch* ...


correct way to go, but

bwa haha
like when Dad made bread from a military bread-mix-in-a-can, trying for a half batch, but he put all the water in... 
went to kneed it and he had to frantically use dish-clothes to keep it from running off the counter while I distributed the rest of the mix into it down the length of the counter.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Aight wanted to throw update here. Been on my mix all season and heres my findings:

Brew:
16oz DI Water
8oz PG
16oz latex
8oz auto slime
2oz ammonia
2-3oz cornmeal

Im in the midwest so doesnt stay really dry for terribly long. plenty of humidity.

After several months still wet inside, almost no fluid in the tire that I set up 6 mnths ago. BUt still wet, almost like a gel. Enough that it still does it job. Front tire I had a burp due to crash so had to refill but when I got bike home to refill, inside was in same condition. like a gel coating over entire inside of tire. Pulled a small thorn out of back tire (well what was left) and spun. sealed up still no issue.

Sealant doesnt like high humidity, slime green colored liquid (looks like antifreeze) seeps from anywhere with sustained high humidity but little to no pressure loss.

Overall, 0 flats except burp do to crash or too low of pressure. And my co2 would reseat bead, top off air pressure and never look back. Seems to deal with CO2 just fine till i get around to refilling sealant.

But atm cant make another batch, forgot my latex in the garage when it got stupid cold......not a happy camper over that one, stuff aint cheap. Had enough to do tires on new wheelset I built but thats it. Going to read through this thread more see what new things have come to pass for next batch.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I'm just curious as I've seen this comment a few times: "still wet but no sealant sloshing around inside." 

Of course it's wet. It would take forever for it to dry when it's not exposed to air other than what's already inside. If there's no sealant sloshing around then it's pretty likely you're gonna flat if you get a puncture.

On another note I won't be buying Mold Builder and letting it sit for the next batch. This last "double" I made was from 1 can of latex that was ~6 months old and another that was fresh. There was a definite difference in viscosity between the two. The "old" can wasn't a block but it was thick enough to need a spoon to get some of it out. 

Guess we'll see if it makes a difference... 

From TapaTalk on my Note 3


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^The mixed sealant will last considerably more than a year, and is the reason many of us mix full batches. Sucks to lose a jar of latex.


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## JStrube (Aug 25, 2011)

SO I need to make some WSS, If I want to stick to the original great formula, I just want to verify, without wading through 143 pages of posts!

1PT Mold builder
1PT Slime
3PT 50-50 antifreeze?
I have those 3 items, just want to get the mix right.

Also, so I don't make a big booger pile like I did one time, what is the best mix order?

Thanks guys, I thought I had it bookmarked, but I saved the "newest post" e-mail, so I screwed it up.

John.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Your ratios are correct. Many of us add a half cup of clear household ammonia. Mix thin to thick, 50/50, slime, latex. Stir or shake between ingredients. Enjoy!


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## JStrube (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks man! Must get MTB ready for the Tainthammer ride tomorrow, was going to ride the Roadie, but given the impending rain, think the fat tires will do better in the mud. 110 miles... Should be fun.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

To skip the worrying I've just thrown everything EXCEPT the Mold Builder in and mixed it up real well. I mix in a gallon paint can and you can feel it warm up so I wait until it cools and then add the latex. Easy Peasy...


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Sort of off topic, but this is where I read and post for all things tubeless sealant...so here ya go!

Took some old dregs, added some PG + RO direct to try to stretch it out. Shook, put in tire. Went riding. ( its winter...so...I'm not supposed to be riding, but weather has other ideas, so here I am ).

Anywho, 2 weeks later, I make a real batch to replace and I find this - new personal record for booger size:








pretty sweet.









Another story: new batch was 1 latex + 1 PG + 2 RO + little ammonia. no chunkifiers. I had a goat head (thorn) in the tire - pulled it out - the pin hole plugged in maybe 20 seconds. Ok. Might have been better if I had added corn meal? I suppose some sort of testing might in order....if I could be bothered


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I think it is worth running a no chunks mix for awhile, and under warm conditions too, just to see how it works. Freezing will make latex form a booger, and that one looks like it may have formed while puddled in the bottom of the tire. Do you store the bike in outside temps? I've heard of winter fat bikers draining the excess sealant once the tire has sealed.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^I don't get boogers and we freeze here in NM at 6300'. I've only run versions of wss.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

My mix has survived without freezing/booger down to -10F. In tire and mix in bottle in my garage. My container of latex on the other hand...oops forgot to bring it in the house.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

How else would a long narrow booger form?


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Bike and sealant stored at out door temps (yes, can be below freezing). For what its worth. Honestly, the input data ( exact mixture, process, variables ) are so hard to pin down - I wouldn't get too caught up in it. I did decide to leave out cornmeal for now ... but I sort of think I'll add it back in eventually. I've seen too much sealant spray from punctures in the past to ignore the idea that it must help to clog that hole.

Mostly I thought it was a cool, because I hadn't seen the pickle-booger yet...


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## odtexas (Oct 2, 2008)

That thing is nasty looking. Seen big roundish spiky things. That deranged white pickle is frightening. :eekster:


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Are you sure you didn't ride over an alien spawn injector disguised as a thorn? 
You might want to kill that thing before something hatches out of it.


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## Terramoto (Nov 16, 2013)

hey,
i've been looking for latex around here but it seems quite dificult to find, i was wondering if it has any resemblance to acrylic base for mold? Because thats the only thing im able to find here.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Discusses B4 acrylic doesn't work. 

Tapatalk upgrade is much better!


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## synnie (Oct 14, 2006)

I did hear that 100% latex acrylic caulking will work, and can be had at any home improvemnt center (Lowes, Home depot}


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

synnie said:


> I did hear that 100% latex acrylic caulking will work, and can be had at any home improvemnt center (Lowes, Home depot}


I did hear there is an Easter bunny.

Acrylic doesn't work... as discussed.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

But imagine how easy it would be to schlube your tires with a caulk gun!!! It's a "shop grade" Stan's injector.


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## Xethur (Dec 6, 2014)

big0mike said:


> I'm just curious as I've seen this comment a few times: "still wet but no sealant sloshing around inside."
> 
> Of course it's wet. It would take forever for it to dry when it's not exposed to air other than what's already inside. If there's no sealant sloshing around then it's pretty likely you're gonna flat if you get a puncture.


I think they're comparing it to stans which is dry/solid after two or three months. But I do agree that you need free flowing excess sealant.


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## C Cow (Aug 2, 2007)

Mixed a new recipe today- 16 oz latex, 3 quarts of windshield washer fluid, half cup of corn meal. This was after way too much internet research. And I'm making cornbread with the left over meal.

Moo


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## Legbacon (Jan 20, 2004)

You didn't read all 143 pages and make notes? I've been thinking of making some but it's way too much to go through to save a few bucks. 1l lasts me a couple of years.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Travis Bickle said:


> You didn't read all 143 pages and make notes? ...


Naw. I skipped around 20 pages in the middle.


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## Cobra Driver (Jun 2, 2011)

Since I broke out the monster jar with my batch of brew I figured I would add an update. I made a huge batch about 3 yrs ago, I have used it in lots of stuff around here. After putting in my MTB tire, I added it to the riding lawn mower, the JD tractor front tires, the beat around go-kart and this past weekend to my 35x12.5x17 truck tires

The batch is still in liquid form and working fine. 

After this tire fill it's time for another batch, I'll be adding more to the tractors back tires this time, that should take a gallon each right there

Best homemade anything I've ever found, keeps me driving safe on the roads, at play and in the back woods when working my machine over fallen trees, rocks and boulders or whatever I run over.


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## CRANK! (Jun 11, 2014)

TiGeo said:


> On my night ride last night I ran over something...likely glass...and got a nice size cut in my tread. Didn't realize it until I was hike-a-biking up some stairs and heard the gurgling from my rear tire (it was near my ear). Sure enough...BAMFSv2.0 worked like a charm. Was holding air this morning and sealed up while riding...YES! This is the first time I know I got a puncture and it was seen to work...I am sure I have had them before and just never noticed as it seals almost instantly. BAMFSv2.0 is just my Stan's clone OSS:
> 
> 1 part latex
> 2 parts PG
> ...


Where do you get your ingredients? I tried cloning your brew with mold builder from hobby lobby. The rest of the ingredients I get from walmart (rv coolant, cleaning ammonia, distilled water, and cornmeal). 3 stans scoops only last me about a month before it evaporates in a 29 tire.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

I'm no TiGeo, but I use his mix.

Longevity seems to vary by climate and probably tire....I don't get that long out of my brew either - maybe a month maybe less depending on time of year. ( Salt Lake City, UT ... cold(ish) winters, dry hot summers )

PG - I got from IFA ( farm store, they feed it to cows or something? )
--"RV" coolant - that's the PG. ( PG is the pure form...long discussions on that )
latex from Michaels ( = hobby lobby )
ammonia = walmart
rest from wherever, easy to find


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I think the tire is the biggest factor in longevity, some tires are a lot better than others, and they all get worse as the sidewalls wear.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

regarding longevity ... some weak data points. I filled with new sealant on 2/9. Today (3/17) the rear tire ( NN evo snakeskin 2.25 ) was dry. The front (Maxxis Ardent 2.25) still had something sloshing around, although I didn't pop the bead to find out how much.

Bike hasn't been ridden that much ... mostly shed time ... its barely been freezing in that period. I use something on the order of 2-3 stans scoops. 

there was definitely more weeping and spotting ( not much, but some ) on that rear Nobby Nic, so I think that contributed to the loss


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## jsengxx (Apr 7, 2015)

hello,

I have some caulk silicone tubes laying around. Can I do something with them?
I saw on a webpage that it can be mixed with the blue windshield cleaner to go tubeless or fill some tubes with it.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^I curious too, you should try it and get back to us....


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Report on BAMFS v3.0. This is basically Stan's clone + ammonia + XG.

PG (Tractor Supply) - 2 parts
DI water - 2 parts
Latex (mold builder) - 1 part
Ammonia (Ace brand) - 0.3 parts
Cornmeal (Kroger) - 1 tbs
XG (Bob's Redmill) - 1 pinch

After over 3 mos. popped open my tires to replenish/see what was going on. No boogers. Still moist but most of the free-flowing liquid was gone. Washed out what I could, peeled the smeg off the beads, and added back 1.5 Stan's red scoopers (3 oz) and off I go. I think this mix works well...not sure if the XG does a damn thing, but seems to work.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

CRANK! said:


> Where do you get your ingredients? I tried cloning your brew with mold builder from hobby lobby. The rest of the ingredients I get from walmart (rv coolant, cleaning ammonia, distilled water, and cornmeal). 3 stans scoops only last me about a month before it evaporates in a 29 tire.


PG - pure PG from Tractor Supply
DI - just any old distilled water
Ammonia - Ace Hardware
Cornmeal - Kroger brand
XG - Bob's Redmill (amazon)
Latex - Mold Builder from Hobby Lobby

3-scoops in a month is crazy...where do you live? What temps? What tires? 1.5 scoops lasts me ~3 mos before its not free-flowing anymore (still moist).


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

big0mike said:


> I'm just curious as I've seen this comment a few times: "still wet but no sealant sloshing around inside."
> 
> Of course it's wet. It would take forever for it to dry when it's not exposed to air other than what's already inside. If there's no sealant sloshing around then it's pretty likely you're gonna flat if you get a puncture.
> 
> ...


I have seen tires that had not seen new sealant for 6-mos that were bone dry..all dried latex...not moist to the touch at all. Mine after 3 mos. today was still wet, just not a puddle of free-flowing sealant in the tire.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I have lost three 16 oz jars of latex lately, so much for stocking up. When mixed up into sealant it lasts until it's gone, at least 2 years here in the mountain southwest. Good reason to just pick a standard brew and mix a full batch and enjoy. Run two different mixes if you want to experiment, but mix up the whole jar of latex. I don't see a use by date on the container but it definitely has a shelf life and I wonder if that is why it goes on sale periodically?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Ya dont try to store latex for too long after it's been opened. I found cool damp place it lasts the longest but once opened it starts to slowly dry up and there's no saving it. Lost over half a 32oz container do to that and just used the last of my batch when I switched to my new wheelset....have a ton of everything except that.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Mine hadn't been previously opened, and was stored in a cool dark place too.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

I've had 6 months+ plus success (after opening and using a portion) in the back of the fridge.


----------



## jsengxx (Apr 7, 2015)

jsengxx said:


> hello,
> 
> I have some caulk silicone tubes laying around. Can I do something with them?
> I saw on a webpage that it can be mixed with the blue windshield cleaner to go tubeless or fill some tubes with it.


I have made a sample of acrilic caulk tube + water + alcohol and some coffee grinds. I´am not a big fan off tubeless I like tubes with sealant in them. Had some tubes with some holes and filled the tube with about 150ml of the sample and pumped it up there was one big hole in it and I could pump it up and let escape some off the sealant and it worked but when more pressure was added the hole leaked again then sealed again and so on so I gave it a try and mounted the tube on the wheel with tire pumped it up and at first it was difficult because the puncture was nearby the valve had to pump the wheel up on his side to let the sealant do the work and it worked. 
I have pumped the wheel up rock hard and let it sit overnight to see what it does.


----------



## jsengxx (Apr 7, 2015)

jsengxx said:


> I have made a sample of acrilic caulk tube + water + alcohol and some coffee grinds. I´am not a big fan off tubeless I like tubes with sealant in them. Had some tubes with some holes and filled the tube with about 150ml of the sample and pumped it up there was one big hole in it and I could pump it up and let escape some off the sealant and it worked but when more pressure was added the hole leaked again then sealed again and so on so I gave it a try and mounted the tube on the wheel with tire pumped it up and at first it was difficult because the puncture was nearby the valve had to pump the wheel up on his side to let the sealant do the work and it worked.
> I have pumped the wheel up rock hard and let it sit overnight to see what it does.


Tire hold air overnight and is still rock hard so the liquid worked.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Interesting recipe, might be a bit of a mess when it dries out, but then you are running it in a tube so no big deal there. I like the coffee grinds idea, seems like a hands on solution with user control over the fineness of the chunk.


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## jsengxx (Apr 7, 2015)

bsieb said:


> ^Interesting recipe, might be a bit of a mess when it dries out, but then you are running it in a tube so no big deal there. I like the coffee grinds idea, seems like a hands on solution with user control over the fineness of the chunk.


The sealant does not work or at least not on that hole. I think it is a big hole.
Tire hold pressure overnight so mounted the tire back on the wheel and put the wheel back on the bike and in my garage when I was test riding the tire could not hold pressure, the sealant could not hold it.


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## jsengxx (Apr 7, 2015)

jsengxx said:


> The sealant does not work or at least not on that hole. I think it is a big hole.
> Tire hold pressure overnight so mounted the tire back on the wheel and put the wheel back on the bike and in my garage when I was test riding the tire could not hold pressure, the sealant could not hold it.


Update:

On Saturday when I picked my bike up for a ride I had 2 flats front and rear and because I did not had any spare tube I decided to take the tubes out and fill them whit the liquid that I made. I put in about 200ml in every tube and it sealed the holes in the tubes. Rode the bike for about 30km that day and every thing was fine. Today the tires are still good, no leakes so I think that in the first tube I did not put enough liquid in it. I decided to cut that tube open and see how many liquid there was in and almost nothing came out of it so I think the problem was not having put enough liquid in it.


----------



## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

Ppl!
anybody try to use Ethylene Glycol instead of PG?


----------



## Nivo (Dec 22, 2014)

cka3o4nuk said:


> Ppl!
> anybody try to use Ethylene Glycol instead of PG?


Yep. Using EG instead of PG and cloudy ammonia instead of clear due to availability. No problems in 4 months.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Be careful with Ethylene Glycol, it will work for tubeless purposes as well as PG but EG is toxic. I also couldnt get PG but I'm using Glycerine instead with no problems whatsoever.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Hi,

I'm planing in mix some sealant, but I'm having some doubts, namely:

Can I use Arabic Gum instead of Xanthan Gum?
What is the concentration of the Ethylene Glycol yous guys use?
Is there a good inert alternative to cornmeal/hair/silica gel?
After the mix, how much time it stays liquid in a closed bottle?
If it's directly in contact with the aluminum, do the ammonia corrode the aluminum?

I have read through most part of this tread, but couldn't find direct answers to this questions, so sorry if i missed them.
Thanks guys.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

EG- cheapest green auto antifreeze is what I used before PG.

I would leave out the gum, you don't need a thick mix. The original WSS still works very well. 1 part each EG, latex, tubeless slime, 2 parts water (optional 1/2 cup ammonia). I have never observed any corrosion in aluminum rims. The sealant lasts at least two seasons/years when mixed, better to mix it all at once.


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## moridinbg (Jun 20, 2013)

Does the latex need to be natural rubber or would the synthetic ones work as well?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

The liquid latex is called mold builder, and yes, it needs to be real latex rubber, although you are free to experiment.

I think it is a good idea to make a batch of wss, if nothing else you know where the bar is and have a basis of comparison for experiments


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

one more quesion 
i use pg mix for water heat system
and resulting mix 
leaks on some tires from sidewals
what to do to avoid it?


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## moridinbg (Jun 20, 2013)

Trouble is it is surprisingly hard to find latex rubber in my part of Europe. Plenty of acrylic though. Nothing like mold builder and stuff suggested to use instead for crafting is usually silicon based. I will have to source the rubber latex from specialised companies, making mattresses, condoms etc 

What about latex caulk? I have spotted on several places people recommending DAP Alex 10.1 oz. Painter's All-Purpose Acrylic Latex Caulk (12-Pack)-18618 - The Home Depot This should be fairly easy to obtain.


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

latex products can be found anywhere
they used form making masks and scars
you got the idea i am sure
even in our swamp i managed to find it


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Latex caulk doesn't have latex rubber in it as far as I know. Try it...


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

in what sequence mix
latex
pg
water 
amonia?

i mix water +pg + amonia then add latex it that right?


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## tundratrader (Mar 5, 2010)

This is an interesting product for us tubeless junkies. The only downside I see is letting air out. Like on my Fatbike. I would need to stick something through to allow air out. 
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/milkit-tubeless-made-easy-no-more-flat-tires


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

cka3o4nuk said:


> in what sequence mix
> latex
> pg
> water
> ...


Yes, and let it sit a few minutes before you put the latex in. You may feel a slight warming when you mix the water and pg.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Aglo said:


> Can I use Arabic Gum instead of Xanthan Gum?


Don't know. I've seen Guar Gum recommended. 


Aglo said:


> After the mix, how much time it stays liquid in a closed bottle?


If you're going off range, away from the tried & true mixes, you can't rely upon getting the tried & true results. 


Aglo said:


> If it's directly in contact with the aluminum, do the ammonia corrode the aluminum?


Apparently not much at the concentrations and amounts involved. BUT, it's the ammonia that keeps the liquid latex stabilized and prevents it from setting up. When in contact with Aluminum, the ammonia gets depleted and the latex sets up. Hence, anodized tubeless-ready rims (and possibly sealed with thinned rubber-cement or shoe-goo, for porous anodizing), or sealing tape or split-tube. If there's raw aluminum, and it's neutralizing the ammonia, over time I'd expect it would be eating some aluminum away?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

cka3o4nuk said:


> one more quesion
> i use pg mix for water heat system
> and resulting mix
> leaks on some tires from sidewals
> what to do to avoid it?


It normally means you have a thin, worn, or otherwise porous, sidewall. Try a different tire, I have had good success with Maxxis Ikon and Ardent personally, and there are many other good ones, just ask around.


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

So, Aldi's has a tire sealant for $4. Looks like little tubes of Stan's, but I don't know if it's just cornstarch and water, or if there's actually something in there. Also concerned about it just being ammonia and eating up rims.
bikemate Bike Tire Sealant - Aldi Weekly Ad - Kansas City


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

is that a four oz. Bottle? reminds me why i homebrew. I can make 20oz for that price.


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## mca90guitar (Apr 2, 2015)

How much can be made with a 16oz latex ? also where are you finding the best price? latex mold builder is $19+ at the local Micheals and another arts store around here.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

michaels always has a 40% off one item coupon. online.
i get plus or minus 80oz.


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## mca90guitar (Apr 2, 2015)

ElwoodT said:


> michaels always has a 40% off one item coupon. online.
> i get plus or minus 80oz.


that should help off to look I go.


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## mca90guitar (Apr 2, 2015)

just to double check this parts thing

would it be

Latex- 16oz
slime-16oz
antifreeze 16oz
water 32oz


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## mca90guitar (Apr 2, 2015)

also why distalled water and rv anti freeze? cant just get by with the antifreeze in the mix?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

mca90guitar said:


> also why distalled water and rv anti freeze? cant just get by with the antifreeze in the mix?


Regular antifreeze is toxic, bad around kids and animals. RV antifreeze is non toxic.


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## mca90guitar (Apr 2, 2015)

slocaus said:


> Regular antifreeze is toxic, bad around kids and animals. RV antifreeze is non toxic.


yeah I plan on using RV but why is water also needed?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

You could substitute 48 oz of RV mix for the water+antifreeze/PG.


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## mca90guitar (Apr 2, 2015)

made the mix sealant and set up my tires last night. Sealed up great and holding pressure good. Have a ton of sealant left. made almost half a gallon.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I have been unhappy with the longevity of my last few refills of BAMFS v.3.0 and decided to try Stan’s again, its $17 for a bottle that will last me the rest of the year (or longer – I usually clean-out/re-fill every 2-3 mos.). Will be interesting to see what it looks like after 3 mos. I was going to make a new batch but was out of Mold Builder and the LBS was closer.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

RV antifreeze....

P. Glycol is a pain to get.

RV antifreeze is much easier to find, but the only kind I can easily get my hands on seems to have "additives".

Prestone RV/Marine Antifreeze - Walmart.com

Is that a big deal?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Probably not a big deal, I would try it.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Depends on the additives. 

Will they interfere with the ammonia preventing the latex from setting up, or will they cause the latex to setup. Don't know. You can try. Some have had success, others haven't, others in-between.

Way back in the thread is discussed about purity of ingredients and longevity of mixture before it starts setting up inside the tire. 

A TSC (the Tractor Supply Company) can order in the PG for you.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Miker J said:


> RV antifreeze....
> 
> P. Glycol is a pain to get.
> 
> ...


I got mine PG at a local pharmacy, it comes in a 47% water solution.
As a mater of fact I got everything from a local pharmacy, except from the latex that I got at a preservation and restoration store.
The good part is that everything comes with a label printed with composition, purity, concentration, pH, etc...


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Data point:

I decided today to change my rear tyre, had been running Smorgasbord (single compound) for the past 6 months but wasnt quite happy with the tyre so decide to run same as front: Chunky Monkey.

This is what it looked like:








From the orginal 100ml I had put in the tyre I removed (and discarded) with a syringe roughly 25ml from that poodle in the tyre.

I really dont know if I had any flats or not so not gonna make any judgments on recipe, but I used:

1 part Latex
1.5 part Glycerin
1.75 part Distilled Water

I mixed 1,5L then decided to add 50ml of 20% Amonia. If math serves me right it should be around 0.6% of total Amonia in the mix. Have read several commercial brands claiming their mixes are "less than 1% Amonia" so should be about right.

I do think with diluted Ammonia people are using its really more water than anything else, not really enough to rise the Ph of the mix properly.

No weepage whatsoever in this tyres (Maxxis Ardent carcass).

My 2 cents.

EDIT:small mistake, I double checked and my ammonia is 25% so those 50ml are in reality 0.8% of total mix.


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## cgolden6 (Mar 11, 2014)

*Trying the BAMFS v3.0*



TiGeo said:


> Report on BAMFS v3.0. This is basically Stan's clone + ammonia + XG.
> 
> PG (Tractor Supply) - 2 parts
> DI water - 2 parts
> ...


Mixing up my 1st batch of this stuff now. I'll let you know how it turns out for me. I noticed that if your "parts" for measurement is 3 oz each, you come up with approx. 16 oz. of sealant when finished.

If the finished product is too soupy or something is off, do you happen to know how each of these ingredients will affect the mix in case of some doctoring needed?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I have been using Stan's over the last few months b/c I was in a pinch, travelling a lot, and it was quick to run to the LBS and drop $17 on a bottle. I am getting about 2-3 months out of it before I think it should be freshened..essentially moist but not a lot of free fluid sloshing around. About the same as my BAMFS was getting.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Had another user PM me some possibly good info on my mixing process:



> You mention the aluminum mixing pot. Way back in the thread Eurotrash provided the chemistry for the ammonia preventing latex polymerization. Also, how it's necessary to avoid brew contact with aluminum as it will react with the ammonia, neutralizing the ammonia, thereby allowing the latex to starting polymerization.
> 
> I figure this has to be contributing to your higher than usual booger frequency issue.


I know a big part of my earlier booger problem was the combo of rubber crumb and xantham gum. Once I switched to corn meal as the chunkulator my boogers got much less severe. But, the aluminum thing is interesting. I don't know if I missed Eurotrash's post or maybe he said it in some scientificky way that I didn't understand but I'll have to find a new mixing jug


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

I use a ton of ammonia in by brew. I have seen no reactions with aluminum, but I can say the mixture is still kicking butt. Today I may soak some raw aluminum in some for a few weeks and see if there are any changes.

I also was busy last month, and with no supplies on hand just grabbed some Stans in a pinch. Man as time goes on they seem to be skimping on ingredients or something. The bottle I got was terrible. Weepy beads, weepy holes in the tire, and lots of irregular pressure on rides. Put my mixture in and all dry and sealed.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

(I missed 20 or 30 pages around 2/3 of the way through, so I went back to the early 50's and I'm up to 125 of working my way through again.) 
It is interesting as Eurotrash was very specific on the chemical mechanism whereby the ammonia stabilized the liquid latex monomer to prevent/resist its polymerization. Anything that would/could interfere with that stabilization, even in a minor way, immediately or over time, would be contributing to bogerization?

As various people asked about various substances, he'd check them out and report back. The list known to interfere with that stabilization included:
aluminum,
metal salts,
acids.
Various DIY recipes tried have a huge number of potential sources of contaminants (or ingredients) promoting bogerization. 
Aluminum
Aluminum ingredients should be avoided.
Aluminum rims should be anodized, painted, sealed (thinned shoegoo, rubber cement) or behind tape or a split-tube. 
Aluminum mixing or storage containers?
RV Anti-Freeze
RV-AF made with what starting purity of water and PG, and who knows which additives, throws a huge wrench into the mix of having a repeatable performance open source sealant. 
Tap Water
Tap water is also a huge variable with various minerals, contaminants & additives. RO and distilled are far better, but deionized (typically RO/DI) is the purist we have access to outside of a lab. 
CO2 
CO2 was listed as absorbing and turning into an acid that would affect that stabilization. 
So filling your tire with CO2 would be a bad thing.
Rubber-crumb
Performance of mixes with rubber-crumb has been variable. Some sources has been shown to have contaminants. Some improvement with pre-washing it. But it is another variable ingredient. 
enriched cornmeal
Some where washing it to remove additives. Seems like a good precaution?
With all of the variable contaminant sources, it goes a long way to explain some of (a lot of?) the variable performance we see across a number of people replicating recipes.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

So using "pure" ingredients seems to be the way to stretch the life of Open Source Sealant, or at least prevent a short life, as it removes contamination that would/could interfere with the liquid latex stabilization and cause polymerization.

Now, *do we need to be adding at least some ammonia* (and how much) to ensure that the ammonia stabilizing the liquid latex monomer is left in place with the latex or in sufficient concentration to do its stabilization job:
There's CO2 in the air we pressurize our tires with, so over time some should be absorbing into solution where it could be doing its acid bit and contributing to boogerization. Although tires with greater volume use more sealant, for extremes like fat-bike tires, should they be using more ammonia?
Our non-latex ingredients, liquids or solids, could be diluting the ammonia concentration enough to contribute to boogerization? 
RO/DI is something contaminant free to bring to the mix, but it is so pure it tends to draw things into it; over time could it be pulling some of the ammonia from the latex/ammonia stabilization?

Where do we go from here to get towards a longer lasting recipie?

Do we know why the leaks seal. Is it the latex/ammonia stabilization affected by its release to exposed to air? A pressure change? Shear action on the latex, overriding the ammonia (relatively weak) stabilization? Does the starting tires pressure have an affect on performance: i.e., from a typical mountain bike tire pressure vs. a fat-bike at 8 psi?


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

One more thing: when Eurotrash or anyone in Europe referrers to Ammonia, they're not talking house cleaning products, which are commonly referred in US as ammonia, but rather the chemical itself. In household ammonia (cleaning product) the concentration is usually 5% or so.
Not a chemist, but I believe Ammonia its what really keeps the sealant/latex stabilized.

From my work background I do know that in photography labs Ammonia was commonly added to "fixing baths" of slide processors (E6) to rise the PH and keep them "fresh"
There was a warning however that if the concentration was too high it could release fumes. 

From I read in to it, those ammonia fumes are kept inside the tyres preventing the latex from hardening.

I've read sealants that claim to be "Ammonia Free" are made from synthetic latex, searched around but can only find chinese suppliers for Synthetic Liquid Latex.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Canoe said:


> So using "pure" ingredients seems to be the way to stretch the life of Open Source Sealant, or at least prevent a short life, as it removes contamination that would/could interfere with the liquid latex stabilization and cause polymerization.


Yup the more pure the better, that's why I get everything i can from my local pharmacy.
Everything come with a printed sheet describing everything from concentration, purity, pH, solvent, etc...
Like the image below i have one for each reagent, it's a crop from my latex sheet:










Canoe said:


> Now, *do we need to be adding at least some ammonia* (and how much) to ensure that the ammonia stabilizing the liquid latex monomer is left in place with the latex or in sufficient concentration to do its stabilization job:


We need to add enough to keep the pH around 8-10 to prevent the polymerization, but we shouldn't add too much because it can affect the polymerization during the puncture sealing.



Canoe said:


> There's CO2 in the air we pressurize our tires with, so over time some should be absorbing into solution where it could be doing its acid bit and contributing to boogerization. Although tires with greater volume use more sealant, for extremes like fat-bike tires, should they be using more ammonia?
> Our non-latex ingredients, liquids or solids, could be diluting the ammonia concentration enough to contribute to boogerization?
> RO/DI is something contaminant free to bring to the mix, but it is so pure it tends to draw things into it; over time could it be pulling some of the ammonia from the latex/ammonia stabilization?


Better try to not use CO2 at all.
Yes if you dilute the latex to much the pH will lower to values bellow 8 and the polymerization begins, this is particularity true if you add hard tap water (pH below 7, water from granite areas is usually hard water), so try to use DI/RO water.



Canoe said:


> Where do we go from here to get towards a longer lasting recipie?
> 
> Do we know why the leaks seal. Is it the latex/ammonia stabilization affected by its release to exposed to air? A pressure change? Shear action on the latex, overriding the ammonia (relatively weak) stabilization? Does the starting tires pressure have an affect on performance: i.e., from a typical mountain bike tire pressure vs. a fat-bike at 8 psi?


The leak seal because when the latex go from high pressure (inside the tire) to low pressure, the ammonia (which is a gas diluted in the water solution) get released, thus lowering the pH and the polymerization of the latex occur, pretty simple mechanism butt nonetheless awesome.



Canoe said:


> Rubber-crumb
> Performance of mixes with rubber-crumb has been variable. Some sources has been shown to have contaminants. Some improvement with pre-washing it. But it is another variable ingredient.


In the process of grinding the rubber the formation of reactive radicals occur, this can force the polymerization of the latex around the crumbs, maybe the best way to prevent this is to revulcanazite and cure the rubber crumbs.

In case you are wandering, no, I'm not a chemist ...


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Aglo said:


> The leak seal because when the latex go from high pressure (inside the tire) to low pressure the ammonia (which is a gas diluted in the water solution) get released thus lowering the pH and the polymerization of the latex occur, pretty simple mechanism butt nonetheless awesome.


Thats what I was trying to explain, but I lack the knowledge/words. 

Very well explained,tks.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Aglo said:


> ...The leak seal because when the latex go from high pressure (inside the tire) to low pressure the ammonia (which is a gas diluted in the water solution) get released thus lowering the pH and the polymerization of the latex occur, pretty simple mechanism butt nonetheless awesome...


The chemical mechanism Eurotrash gave was very specific, and the loss of ammonia would surly remove its resisting the polymerization of the latex, so I'm sure the ammonia off-gassing contributes. But I'm not convinced pH is involved, even though the pretense of acids is supposed to:
react with the loosely latex-associated ammonia, removing it from being in place to block the polymerization of the latex, or is it
change the pH enough that the ammonia (while still in association with the latex?) no longer resists the latex polymerization?

In looking at the speed with which leaks seal, and the variable times reported, there has to be more going on there than off-gassing of ammonia. Even with a pressure change, off-gassing doesn't happen instantly, and we're dealing with a puncture that has a depth with a small surface area to atmosphere on the outside (and the air from inside the tire blowing through the leak while it seals has ammonia gas), yet leaks appear to start sealing almost immediately, in some cases near instantly. The velocity of the sealing going from a higher pressure inside the tire to the outside pressure causing shear coagulation to polymerization has been discussed in this thread before; what contribution is it making, if any? 
SPECULATING: it could be that with some off-gassing of ammonia at the leak, once a tiny portion of latex has lost it's ammonia block and polymerizes, then the rest of the latex in contact with it will follow. Against that, the liquid latex in the sealant still inside the wheel is in contact with the sealed leak and it doesn't all turn solid (perhaps because it still has enough ammonia to block polymerization). This brings me back to it being something else, like shear.

I have no data, but am intrigued by sealing time differences for similar sized punctures but from a tire at a higher pressure vs. a tire at low-pressure. Perhaps those riding multiple bikes with the same brew have some observations they can post. Is or isn't there a trend.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

As i said, I'm not a chemist, so i can only make educated guesses based on what I remember from my high school and college chemistry classes, plus some research on the web.

Canoe, you are probably right. If not, the latex inside the tire would not start to polymerize with all that ammonia, and we know that the ammonia only retard the polymerization and not stop it. Something besides the change in the pH has to occur.
Another reason to the latex start polymerization when sealing a leak, is the same reason as to why rubber crumbs promotes polymerization, fresh exposed rubber has reactive radicals on it surface. But the beads don't have fresh exposed rubber, so something else has to cause the polymerization here.

Now, some data.
My tire punctures are sealed faster in low pressures. But this is to be expect.
When setting tires that were previously used with a tube, the bigger punctures and side wall punctures, were sealed faster at lower pressures.
At 35psi it took some time and the bigger one, a pinch from a rim strike didn't seal at all.
At 25psi everything is sealed in less than 2sec.
Later, I will post some photos of the punctures that got sealed.

I used a brew without any chunkulator and all my punctures were all sealed without a problem. After a particularly nasty ride were I intended to test the brew, I pluck a thorn from the tire and it start leaking air and ammonia :eekster:, I rotate the puncture down and it was sealed in less than 2sec, the tire was at 30psi. I also noticed some spots on the side wall and in the center of the tire. The sealant did an awesome job. Got my seal of approval :thumbsup:. One week later and the tires are still rock solid.
I'm researching (meaning, I'm goggling it) on how to neutralize the rubber crumbs so I can add it to my next batch.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

FMCurto said:


> I've read sealants that claim to be "Ammonia Free" are made from synthetic latex, searched around but can only find chinese suppliers for Synthetic Liquid Latex.


Stan's claims that they don't use ammonia and they use natural rubber latex. So they have to use something else besides the PG to stabilize the mix. But they don't tell what it is. I guess instead of finish reading "Crime and Punishment" I'm gonna get some books related to rubber.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Ok, as promised the photos.

*The pinch that didn't seal up at 35psi but sealed ok at 25psi:*























*
A sidewall sealed puncture, this are paper thin sidewalls:*







*
A thorn still on the tire:*


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## kmjelle (Nov 29, 2007)

*Improving Stans Sealant*

I have to admit, I didn`t read all 146 pages. Maybe it could be an idea to summarize the most important learning points, ingredients or recipes in the original post?

Anyway, I have access to many of the ingredients mentioned in the last posts, like ammonia, glycol, distilled water. Latex I would have to order. So I just wondered if there is any way of improving the properties of Stan`s Sealant, so that it lasts longer without hardening or seals better?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

kmjelle said:


> I have to admit, I didn`t read all 146 pages. Maybe it could be an idea to summarize the most important learning points, ingredients or recipes in the original post?
> 
> Anyway, I have access to many of the ingredients mentioned in the last posts, like ammonia, glycol, distilled water. Latex I would have to order. So I just wondered if there is any way of improving the properties of Stan`s Sealant, so that it lasts longer without hardening or seals better?


*Canoe *already did an awesome job pointing out the key points and major thing to avoid, so kudos to him.

I'm currently using a variation of *BAMFS 3.0* and two sub versions.
Something like v3.1A and v3.1B.
I didn't add any chunkulator as I want to test longevity, also I didn't add any thickener (XG or any other kind) because I'm using latex with 60.5% of total solid content, A and B versions just have different quantity of latex in the mix.
In the next mix I'm thinking on add rubber as a chunkulator.

As mentioned in previous posts I'm very happy with the results.
Doing a quick inspection on the front tire I noticed something buried in it, but no leak, I plucked it out and it was the wood sliver in the photo bellow:







that thing is 1cm deep and <1.5mm thick, after 3sec at ~30psi the leak was sealed.


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## mattwilkinson (Aug 11, 2013)

How does this batch sound?

_500ml Latex_
_1 Litre Propylene Glycol_
_1 Litre Distilled Water_
_1 TBSP Polenta/Corn Meal_


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

mattwilkinson said:


> How does this batch sound?
> 
> _500ml Latex_
> _1 Litre Propylene Glycol_
> ...


That is the one of the brews I'm testing at the moment, and super happy with it.
Only difference is that I added ammonia to extend the lifetime, and didn't add any chunklator(corn meal).


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Not sure if this is on topic, but what does the hive mind think about using nitrogen to fill tires with sealant?


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

from a chemical standpoint, nitrogen is inert. If you can get it for free, sure. Standard atmospheric air from an air compressor or hand pump is 79% nitrogen and 21% oxygen with trace amounts of everything else. The oxygen is relatively non-reactive to what's going on inside the tire as far as slime goes. Worst case, you have ammonia and oxygen, you could get biological growth. If it starts smelling funky, don't lick the slime and you should be OK.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

^^that and as a bonus the gas leak from your tires would be slower as the N2 molecules is bigger than the O2 molecules.
If you get it free, you can also use it in your fork and shock air chambers.

Oh, and don't lick your tires, period... even if your fetish is licking them ...


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## mattwilkinson (Aug 11, 2013)

Are these the correct materials?
Thanks

500ml Liquid Latex Free Freight | eBay
Propylene Glycol 1LT Cigar Humidor Humidifier Timber USP Grade 99 9 Purity | eBay


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I believe the tire condition (age, thickness of sidewalls) has a lot more to do with sealant life vs. all the chemistry/mixes than I had thought previously. My rear tire were flat worn out (threads showing on sidewalls) - this was a S-Works Fast Trak. My front tire is a S-Works Ground Control that was in much better shape i.e. no threads showing. I kept noticing the sealant in the rear tire was needing to be replenished frequently vs. the front. I also noticed when checking a buddy's sealant in nearly new tires after ~6 mos. his Stan's was still in good shape (plenty in there). I think the thinner the tire sidewalls get, the more the sealant can evap. Thoughts?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> I believe the tire condition (age, thickness of sidewalls) has a lot more to do with sealant life vs. all the chemistry/mixes than I had thought previously. My rear tire were flat worn out (threads showing on sidewalls) - this was a S-Works Fast Trak. My front tire is a S-Works Ground Control that was in much better shape i.e. no threads showing. I kept noticing the sealant in the rear tire was needing to be replenished frequently vs. the front. I also noticed when checking a buddy's sealant in nearly new tires after ~6 mos. his Stan's was still in good shape (plenty in there). I think the thinner the tire sidewalls get, the more the sealant can evap. Thoughts?


True. Certified UST tires can run with no sealant at all due to the sealed casings. Sealant is only needed if a puncture occurs.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

TiGeo- You hit the nail square on the head son. I'm starting to think it's foolish to pursue sealing worn out or thin sidewalls, or debilitating puncture/rips. Intelligent tire choice makes for the longest lasting sealant.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

TiGeo said:


> (...) I also noticed when checking a buddy's sealant in nearly new tires after ~6 mos. his Stan's was still in good shape (plenty in there). I think the thinner the tire sidewalls get, the more the sealant can evap. Thoughts?


The type of rubber and if the tire is inner coated with a low permeability rubber, like butyl, have a major impact in the airtight permeability of the tire.
A good tubeless tire need to have a mix of low permeability rubber, or be inner coated with butyl or other type low permeability rubber to promote a strong bead seal, and a strong airtight case, thus increasing the lifetime of the sealant as a bonus ...

So it's not so much the tire condition but more the quality of the rubber that the tire case is made of.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

slocaus said:


> True. Certified UST tires can run with no sealant at all due to the sealed casings. Sealant is only needed if a puncture occurs.


Not quite what I was getting at...yes...I understand that UST don't require sealant but most run it to handle puncutures if they happen. What I was saying is that tubeless-ready tires with worn/thin casings cause the sealant to evap/dry out faster than new tires so when we talk about sealant life, you need to also consider the tires' condition. UST is actually an example of this...I opened a buddy's UST tires that hadn't had sealant for ~5 years and while it was mostly solidified, it was still damp...b/c the casings are thick/air-tight.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Aglo said:


> The type of rubber and if the tire is inner coated with a low permeability rubber, like butyl, have a major impact in the airtight permeability of the tire.
> A good tubeless tire need to have a mix of low permeability rubber, or be inner coated with butyl or other type low permeability rubber to promote a strong bead seal, and a strong airtight case, thus increasing the lifetime of the sealant as a bonus ...
> 
> So it's not so much the tire condition but more the quality of the rubber that the tire case is made of.


Understood, but in my example, these were the same tires...one v. worn/thin and one nearly new. Worn/thin tires requiring new sealant every month and new tire needing it every 4-6 mos. Just trying to say that everyone seems v. concerned with the sealant's longevity but in that discussion you need to factor in the type of tire (your comment) and the condition of the tire.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> Not quite what I was getting at...yes...I understand that UST don't require sealant but most run it to handle puncutures if they happen. What I was saying is that tubeless-ready tires with worn/thin casings cause the sealant to evap/dry out faster than new tires so when we talk about sealant life, you need to also consider the tires' condition. UST is actually an example of this...I opened a buddy's UST tires that hadn't had sealant for ~5 years and while it was mostly solidified, it was still damp...b/c the casings are thick/air-tight.


My point exactly, using an extreme example of a totally sealed casing vs an worn, regular tire or worn TLR tire. The original Racing Ralphs were like thin silk casings with no rubber and were almost impossible to seal, the other extreme. I started using tubeless when no 29er TLR tires existed.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

TiGeo said:


> Understood, but in my example, these were the same tires...one v. worn/thin and one nearly new. Worn/thin tires requiring new sealant every month and new tire needing it every 4-6 mos. Just trying to say that everyone seems v. concerned with the sealant's longevity but in that discussion you need to factor in the type of tire (your comment) and the condition of the tire.


You are right of course, all being equal a new tire will have a thicker case thus will have a lower permeability. And this permeability is directly related to the thickness of the tire case.
I thought you were talking about "S-Works Fast Trak" and "S-Works Ground Control", thats why I put emphasis in the type of rubber as one being less worn out, would be newer/more recent with better rubber mix, while the other one more old would not have the same rubber mix.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Canoe said:


> A TSC (the Tractor Supply Company) can order in the PG for you.


When I was at Tractor Supply they had RV Antifreeze on the shelf, but it seems to have quite a few additives and I wasn't sure if that was the stuff in particular that most were using.

If we wanted something more pure, what item or part number would we order at Tractor Supply?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

PHeller said:


> When I was at Tractor Supply they had RV Antifreeze on the shelf, but it seems to have quite a few additives and I wasn't sure if that was the stuff in particular that most were using.
> 
> If we wanted something more pure, what item or part number would we order at Tractor Supply?


Google Search
Ideal Animal Health USP Propylene Glycol, 1 gal. - For Life Out Here


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

PHeller said:


> When I was at Tractor Supply they had RV Antifreeze on the shelf, but it seems to have quite a few additives and I wasn't sure if that was the stuff in particular that most were using.
> 
> If we wanted something more pure, what item or part number would we order at Tractor Supply?


slocaus has it. Just remember from the tractor and farm places, it is something they feed to COWS, so that's the department you're looking for. Not the anti-freeze section.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Ahhh that clears things up. 

Looks like I can get Ammonia at TSC as well.

I've got a ton of saw dust laying around the garage, will that make an ok chunkenator?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

PHeller said:


> Ahhh that clears things up.
> 
> Looks like I can get Ammonia at TSC as well.
> 
> I've got a ton of saw dust laying around the garage, will that make an ok chunkenator?


In relate to ammonia, don't forget, try to find the clear type one, the more clear the better, try find something with 24%-25% ammonia.

I have read here in this thread about someone trying sawdust, but don't remember the results. If you are going to try it, then try submerging it in water first, so you can make it less buoyant.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I would submerse in distilled or RO water. Tap water will introduce salts and calcium, etc.


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

Sawdust can be used if you have it, but I'd rather get cornmeal. It's well documented as working well, and it's not expensive. Probably have some in the house right now.


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## mattjk (Sep 16, 2015)

Hi All

Great thread plan to try a home brew mixture soon i think i will try this which will make a 1100ml

250ml latex
375ml Glycerol
375ml water
100ml ammonia (10%)
Cornmeal or fibreglass as clogging material.

By using glycerol it should thicken the consistency without adding additional thickening agents to keep it simple as possible..

I have worked out the above will cost about £15 ($23USD) give or take so a big saving on Stans/Slime Pro etc..


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## kmjelle (Nov 29, 2007)

What kind of latex fluid do people use? Can anyone point me in the right direction, or provide a couple of suggestions from ebay? Shipping it to Norway.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

It's called liguid latex mold builder, just google it. It should look something like this...


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

kmjelle said:


> What kind of latex fluid do people use? Can anyone point me in the right direction, or provide a couple of suggestions from ebay? Shipping it to Norway.


I use liquid latex rubber that is sold at Art supplies stores, or at Preservation and Restoration supplies stores.
You can find 1L of liquid latex rubber with 60% total solid content at ~15€.
The one I got is suitable for making medical goods, like gloves and other things, or balloons. If its ok for medical goods it's ok for my tires .
On ebay you can find similar products at lower prices, but you will pay postage. Check this link Liquid Latex 1 Litre 1000ml Rubber Mold Mould Making Dipping Crafts SFX | eBay
Try to buy products with at least 60% total solid content.

Good luck.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Mold builder.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

He mentioned Norway, so they probably dont know it as Mold Builder, nor does he want to ship a bunch of small containers. 

It's good we start looking at other options as well, there may be cheaper options for larger quantities.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

PHeller said:


> He mentioned Norway, so they probably dont know it as Mold Builder, nor does he want to ship a bunch of small containers.
> 
> It's good we start looking at other options as well, there may be cheaper options for larger quantities.


Mold builder usually is some kind of partial pre-vulcanized liquid latex rubber, some kinds already have thickeners in it, but I prefer to use the ones without it, like the one I mentioned. Its a lot cheaper, 1/4 to 1/3 of the price, just don't come in pretty bottles, and you know exactly what is inside.
I noticed *kmjelle* mentioned Norway, that's why I mentioned the Art supplies stores, even if he have to pay postages if he cant find a local store, its a lot cheaper to pay inland postage that it is to pay international postage.

This is my opinion, but even if the products sold as Mold Builder were cheaper I would prefer Liquid Latex rubber, as the content would be more pure, with less additives.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Aglo, my comment wasn't direct at you. Your post was helpful for those in and outside the states. Thanks for the info!


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

PHeller said:


> Aglo, my comment wasn't direct at you. Your post was helpful for those in and outside the states. Thanks for the info!


I know, don't worry.
I just used your suggestion of finding a cheaper alternative and took the opportunity to shed some light of what is Mold Builder, and what in my opinion would be a good alternative.
Someone already have mentioned here in this thread the possibility of using synthetic rubber latex, but I didn't find much information about it, nor did I found a cheap source.


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## mattwilkinson (Aug 11, 2013)

Is anyone here from Australia? Here I can't find any RV Antifreeze, and on eBay PG is about $27 for one litre...
Are there any other substitutes or anyone know where I might find this stuff in Australia?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

PHeller said:


> He mentioned Norway, so they probably dont know it as Mold Builder, nor does he want to ship a bunch of small containers.
> 
> It's good we start looking at other options as well, there may be cheaper options for larger quantities.


The latex has a shelf life, I buy 16 oz jars as I need them because they will partially solidify and be unusable. I wouldn't get more latex than you will mix up in a year, and I would mix up one big batch all at once, as I have never had a mixed batch become unusable, up to two years in one case. I'm talking about the WSS formula.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

mattwilkinson said:


> Is anyone here from Australia? Here I can't find any RV Antifreeze, and on eBay PG is about $27 for one litre...
> Are there any other substitutes or anyone know where I might find this stuff in Australia?


Ok, that's expensive. I bought mine at a local pharmacy, it's industrial grade, and it was half your price for 1L, check there, maybe you get lucky.
People are also buying it cheaper at veterinary shops at food grade.
As an alternative, you can try Glycerol/Glycerin, it's even more viscous than PG so if you are using a brew with XG in the mix, take caution to not make it to thick. But I think it's even more expensive, not sure.

I'm not from Australia, so I cant help you more,

good luck.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm using Glycerin, it sure is viscous  but its down dirt cheap: 3€ for 0,5L

Longevity wise I think its on par with PG.


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## mattwilkinson (Aug 11, 2013)

Glycerine is $10 per 200ml here....


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## mattjk (Sep 16, 2015)

I haven't seen any talk of PH level in this thread I think its worth getting some litmus paper to check your formulas - too high and the latex wont dry out, to low and it will dry out prematurely in the tyre.

I found a safety data sheet for slime pro here and to summarize

PH level: 9.5 +/- .5 
Main ingredients: DI water/Glycerin/Butadiene latex
Other ingredients: Cellulose/Phosphoric acid??/Polyvinyl Alcohol
Clogging agent: Talc - not seen this before!

http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1902325pdf?$PDF$

Interesting information anyway.


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## klavius (May 28, 2009)

Hi

I wanted to share with you my experience with tubeless setup using OSS

To be honest I'm not so sure going tubeless is worth it. With tubes it's very clean and almost a set and forget, but with tubeless you invest a lot of time in maintenance not to mention that it's all but clean.

No flats?... yes, but I did not find any thorns in the tire so maybe it would've been no flats for tubes as well.

(rear tire)
I cut in the tire is final, no way OSS (or any sealant) can seal that, so you have to put in a tube to keep rolling.

The tire was almost new so I decided to take the tire to a car service to be patched. I was afraid to use the tire tubeless so I used a regular inner tube until I got tired of that tire and bought a new one from a different brand. No single flat using tubes.

Do you know how difficult and messy it is to remove the tube from a tire that had sealant inside (after cleaning)? The tube sticks to the tire as the latex gets very sticy when it gets almost dried. photos.

(front tire)
No flats or cuts during the time I used it and the OSS would work fine to seal, yes I had to inflate ocasionally but not a problem at all. I refilled sealant 3 times using a syringe, never had to brake the bead.

This was a 2.4 heavy tire and I wanted to replace it with a 2.2 light race tire for an event.

This was a painful thing to do.

To remove the tire you have to push one side with brute force, and doing this causes the tire sides to get sticked because of the dried latex. The dried latex gets very sticky so very carfully you need to avoid the sides of the tire to touch.

Take a look at the pictures, the latex creates a layer around the tire and many boggers are sticked to it. This for sure adds weight to the tire and makes it unbalanced.

I'm not sure if I will use again that tire and it's almost 60% of life left.

In cases like me where you have a versatil bike where you swap tires according to the terrain or event or for better lifespan, then going tubeless might not be that of a good experience.

Are all the sealants the same? Do they all get that sticky?

I'm a pragmatic person, I prefer to enjoy the ride rather than worry about equipment, grams, ounces, obsesive maintenance, etc.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Wow....Really haven't had issues like this. I refresh the sealant every few months and often take the tire off and clean it out with a scrubby sponge and warm water. I have had to tube a tubeless set up before, not really much drama..I guess the mess wasn't that messy to me. The dried latex weighs next to nothing and certainly doesn't do anything to the balance. In ~4 years of running tubeless I have had one flat due to a cut sidewall that required a tube to ride out...and with more CO2 I could have sealed it. That is over 2K miles of riding with one flat. I can tell you with tubes I would have had many more. Tubes are no-brainers and easy to use so may be the best thing of you.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

I got a rock puncture in my front tire today. My sealant saved me from having to do anything except watch it bleed sealant. Then stop with the hole at the bottom of the tire and let the goop do its stuff 

I don't bother switching tires. Too much work. That is what spare wheelsets are for. I usually go a couple months at a time without touching my tires except for air. 

On the rare occasion I pull a tire to store. I'll scrub down the inside with a stiff plastic brush. 

I'm in the south west. Tubeless just makes a better riding experience. Too many goat heads here.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Two questions on old latex:

my latex is almost a year old now, but I just checked and it still runs nicely. I assume that even if I have to scrape out the latex it'll soften up with the ammonia, correct?

Has anyone tried adding a mix of water/pg/ammonia after 3 months to keep the mix liquid in the tire?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I did the adding water/ammonia after 2 months and it seemed to extend the life, but I am not sure it sealed quite as well after. Definitely worth doing.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I inspect and top off ~monthly with more sealant without problems, but once the latex starts to harden it won't become liquid again. I have tried to rescue whole jars of liquid latex that are starting to harden and it doesn't work, and the latex is worthless at that point. So you have to keep it liquid. I have had mixed batches of WSS sealant last up to two years before using with no problems, but the jars of unmixed latex can go bad quicker than that. The jars have no "use before" date that I am aware of, I wish they did.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Good source of liquid latex if you live near a Walmart.

Liquid Latex Pint - Walmart.com


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

bsieb said:


> Good source of liquid latex if you live near a Walmart.
> 
> Liquid Latex Pint - Walmart.com


Sorry if I missed the discussion, but is this a straightforward substitute for mould builder?


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Well I did it. I had a tub of Mold Builder that was almost a year old, so I decided if I was going to make this mix it had to be sooner rather than later. My 4th pinch flat of the season sealed the deal. The mix would be made.

32 oz of Propolyene Glycol from Tractor Supply - $22
32 oz of Distilled Water - $2
2 oz of Austin's Clear Ammonia from Tractor Supply - $4
- Mixed in a big glass pickle jar then added
16 oz Mold Builder Half Price Coupon - $10

So this is a 2-2-1 mix + ammonia with no chunkalator. Being in the desert I was more worried about it drying out quickly than I am lots of big tears and punctures. I'll add cornmeal if I have problems.

I hope that I didn't add too much ammonia, although one previous poster said he had added 16oz of Ammonia to a mix with no immediate negative results. I wanted the mix to stay runny, and the tires seated and inflated just fine with a floor pump. I just hope that I don't have problems later down the road.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

How 'bout this...

I've got the opportunity to get my hands on this Slime quite cheap:

1 Gallon Tire Sealant for all tires | Slime

For years I've been using this as a base for my own home brew. To 1 Slime I add about 1 water, 1 PG, 1/2 latex, scoop corn meal, dash ammonia.

I suspect the Slime is largely PG plus chunks. Here's the question....

Can I get away with not adding my own PG, and keep my mix otherwise the same?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Miker J said:


> Sorry if I missed the discussion, but is this a straightforward substitute for mould builder?


Yes, same thing, pure liguid latex.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Anyone ever have a tire blow off the rim due to a bad brew mix?

My Goma 2.4 just blew off my Stans Flow EX rims. No skin on the tire, pretty watery mix.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

yes...while i was airing up (too much psi).


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## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

klavius said:


> Hi
> 
> I wanted to share with you my experience with tubeless setup using OSS
> 
> ...


Why not use tubes with 2oz of Stans in the tube? Best of both worlds for you.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Don't think that would work. The sealant works because of rapid pressure change/flexing through hole. A tube would allow it to weep out and it would never seal. Also, that would weigh as much as both a tube and sealant. Tubeless and sealant works great for me. Might lose a few psi before it seals, but not enough I can't ride it and I can always top of the PSI.

The guy that wears a belt and suspenders takes twice as long to take a dump and has less range of movement than guys that only wear one or the other. I generally wear neither and I have not had a problem with my pants falling down since my hips are wider than my waist.


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## huckleberry hound (Feb 27, 2015)

D Bone said:


> Why not use tubes with 2oz of Stans in the tube? Best of both worlds for you.


I do this very thing and its works better than Slime tubes.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

I've found that wss outperforms stans, slime, and truegoo in a tube...(kids bikes all have wss in them).


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## huckleberry hound (Feb 27, 2015)

What is wss?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Wss is Wadesters Secret Sauce, and is still one of the best and easiest.

Mix, in this order, shaking well between ingredients:

32 oz Water
16 oz PG, EG, RV, antifreeze.
16 oz any type of tubeless Slime
8 oz clear ammonia, or whatever kind you can find.
16 oz liquid latex mold builder

This yields an ~88 oz batch of WSS tubeless sealant.

Many of us prefer to use food grade PG (propylene glycol) because we have dogs around. EG (ethylene glycol) is green and is the cheapest auto antifreeze you can buy.
RV antifreeze is usually pre-mixed and PG based. Be sure to do the math if you are using a prediluted product. I mix the whole batch at once, (in a clear ~90 oz OJ bottle so I can observe it) because it will last longer, up to 2 years in my experience. The unmixed liquid latex has a definite shelf life, and especially once the seal is broken. Check the seal when you are buying, and don't stock up. 

This mix has many variations, so feel free to experiment or use what you can get. The formula above will give a tried and true, if not superior, tubeless sealant. 

I use 2-3 oz in my 2.4 x 29er tires. My personal routine is to open up the bead once a month or so, and top off the ~6" long puddle by pouring right out of the jug. I've never had any buildup problems this way, and only see boogers if I use a CO2 inflater.

Let us know how it works for you.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

PHeller said:


> Anyone ever have a tire blow off the rim due to a bad brew mix?
> 
> My Goma 2.4 just blew off my Stans Flow EX rims. No skin on the tire, pretty watery mix.


That's REALLY surprising. Is it a "TNT" Goma? Those have been so tight (and airtight ) for me that I couldn't ever imagine one blowing off, but the std casing is likely a looser fit.

Maybe the tire's porous enough that you're losing air and rolling the tire under cornering load?


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## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

yourdaguy said:


> Don't think that would work. The sealant works because of rapid pressure change/flexing through hole. A tube would allow it to weep out and it would never seal.


Nope. it works great. A lot of us here in the high desert of SoCal run this very setup due to goat heads and rocks. The balance run tubeless, but I have heard more than one story of tubeless riders having to re-lace a wheel due to a rock strike at speed that completely compressed the sidewall and smashed into the rim.

I haven't had a flat with a tube with Stans installed in forever _<knocks on wood>_ and I ride in a place that if you went out with "just" a tube, you would flat within 5 rides or less.

To each their own, and I may still give tubeless a go one day just to see if it's worth it or not for myself.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

D Bone said:


> To each their own, and I may still give tubeless a go one day just to see if it's worth it or not for myself.


Well, you don't need tubes anymore, although I still carry two tubes, so that doesn't change.  The other thing is that running low tire pressure is facilitated a bit. But there are so many variables that it's hard to say, although the ust standard has made tires and rims mostly compatible now. Once you find a good combination it's pretty much trouble free except for maintaining your sealant puddle. The quality of ride is more noticeable, it's more responsive and resilient, lighter some how. Makes it hard to go back for most. Small learning curve, a good high volume floor pump is essential. I don't use my compressor anymore, too much hassle.


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## D Bone (Jul 20, 2014)

^ Good info...... Thanks!


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

doismellbacon said:


> That's REALLY surprising. Is it a "TNT" Goma? Those have been so tight (and airtight ) for me that I couldn't ever imagine one blowing off, but the std casing is likely a looser fit.
> 
> Maybe the tire's porous enough that you're losing air and rolling the tire under cornering load?


Standard casing, folding.

Blew off sitting in the garage after I had just put 30-35psi in it.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Well I tried putting the Goma back on tonight without luck. The bead has shaped a little bit, which makes getting it seated with a regular floor pump difficult. It's also loosened up a bit, so I doubt it'll be a good candidate for tubeless in the future. 

The Breakout 2.5 up front is still doing fine, losing little air.

Aslo determine that my 2-2-1 mix is a bit too watery. I tried setting up an old Neomoto that has a gash in its side, and despite the bead seating and going extra heavy on the sealant, it won't seal that gash. I'll try again tonight after its sat for awhile.


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## mousehunter (Sep 22, 2015)

Been reading/scanning this thread for days now. Lots of good research. Saw the beginnings of WSS and the genesis of OSS (abet need to reread to learn more about Eurotrash). While doing that, saw the importance of learning how to read a recipe, down to the mixing directions...

Which left me with a potential question. I read concern with impurities, and nightmares caused by mixing the mold former with PG. I started to wonder how much of the impurity problems might have been cause by the lack of ammonia to stabilize the latex.

I probably will not get to Tractor supply till Friday or Saturday (going camping with the cub scouts - so very possibly it will be an after camping trip) - so not sure if I will be using PG or RV Antifreeze. That said, I am very tempted to try a very simply mix of latex, ammonia, and antifreeze. Depending on the ammonia I find, will use minimal water to mix the latex and ammonia - as the antifreeze will already be 50% water.

Oh great conveners' of knowledge - did I miss a post, has this simply solution been tested and found wanting? Or has it been simply found unpredictable due to the huge potential impurities.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

mousehunter said:


> (...)
> Oh great conveners' of knowledge - did I miss a post, has this simply solution been tested and found wanting? Or has it been simply found unpredictable due to the huge potential impurities.


Yes, it's was tested before by some users, namely me ...
See from page 144 and forward.
I posted some pics and observations about the performance.
I'm very happy with it. I intended to test the brew's longevity in the tire, but i think I run out of sealant in the tire ...
Note to self: double the amount of sealant poured into the tire 

And you are looking at it wrong, exactly because it is simple the number of impurities and variables that could cause undesired effects are prone to be less.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

The thing to keep in mind is the thickness of the mix, so I would mix the rv 50/50 mix and the latex, then add ammonia until it is thin enough. The normal WSS formula is thick compared to most other sealant, so you don't want it much thicker or performance will be compromised. Thinner is better than thicker, I believe, if nothing else more water can evaporate before it dries out.


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## nathan59801 (Feb 20, 2011)

So, I just finished reading most of this tread. Thanks to everyone who contributed. I want to mix a batch this weekend and have most everything except the PG. Can't find it in town and don't really have time to ship it in. How's this look?

16 oz mold builder
48 oz rv 50/50
2 tbs cornmeal
2 oz 10% ammonia


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Have you tried farm supply stores such as Tractor supply. They give PG to cows for something.


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## nathan59801 (Feb 20, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> Have you tried farm supply stores such as Tractor supply. They give PG to cows for something.


Unfortunately, we don't have a Tractor Supply here in western Montana.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Did you check at a local pharmacy, a local veterinary, or a veterinary store?
My brain only accept metric units, buy I'm to tired to convert and do the maths, need to sleep, if until I have time to check your numbers and no one did check them I will give them a look.
By the way, do you know the concentration of Latex in your mold builder?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Ok,

Just did the maths, your numbers seems ok, depending on you Latex concentration you can lower the quantity of mold builder. But you don't need to. Currently i'm running a brew that except for the ammonia have 1 part of each:
1 part 60% liquid latex
1 part >99% PG
1 part DI water

Depending on your weather probably not a bad idea to increase your ammonia.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Yes, a little more ammonia and be sure to mix the ammonia with the RV antifreeze belifore you add the mould builder. I don't know about your mould builder. What I get here is almost purely latex with some ammonia. I have never seen 60% liquid latex.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

I use Glycerin/Glycerol instead of PG.Two years, a few batches, no problems whatsoever.

Both play the same part: restrain evaporation.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

i bought some glycerin tyo experiment with 

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

You guys know you can get PG on amazon too, its cheap enough. I buy all my stuff on amazon usually except DI water and ammonia. Mostly cause I can't find mold builder locally or PG. I mixed a batch last spring in a gallon jug, 3/4 full by the time I was done (so I could use all my latex in one pass). Bottle is still gtg, just added to my tires the first time since set up back in October.

Btw ALWAYS to be safe mix your latex in last. I mix everything else together first as ive seen what happens when you forget lol.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

tigris99 said:


> Btw ALWAYS to be safe mix your latex in last. I mix everything else together first as ive seen what happens when you forget lol.


Been there done that!

I agree. I get mine from Amazon. It's also readily avail on ebay. The popularity of e-cigs or vaping has made it easy to find since it is commonly used for that.


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## foamman1 (Nov 6, 2014)

Ride report. I used this recipe.
Stans arch ex
Vee rubber Flying vee tires (Sorry but they ride better than you would think) 
32 oz Water
16 oz PG, Tractor Supply
16 oz tubeless Slime
4 oz clear ammonia, Walmart
16 oz liquid latex mold builder From Micheal's
I mixed this up in May went tubeless and never looked back. I rode about 500 miles from may to September.I had a little slow time from September till now due to trying to put my house on the market and maintaining two yards. Living in south Louisiana its 90F most of that time. I decided to pull the tires this afternoon and to my surprise the front tire still was wet. No puddle if you will, but wet. The back one was a little drier. Both were still holding air no problem though i'm sure wouldn't have any flat protection from thorns and such. As bsieb said this is a simple and proven recipe.


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## WerxRacing (Jun 1, 2011)

yourdaguy said:


> i bought some glycerin tyo experiment with


Having any luck with the change? Before I go shopping I need to get a list of goods for the newer drew. Last I was on here looking was 2013 at the brews. Then there was people trying new brew a chemist suggested. 
One of your first post on the new stuff "
Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy View Post
News Flash: dissolving the xantham gum in the PG works great!

Simplified mixing procedure:
put 16 oz of PG in a 32 oz measuring beaker
dissolve in 2 13cc scoops of xantham gum-if you sprinkle it in slowly, it will totally whet. Then mix with a stirrer.
Fill with 16 oz of RO water and stir.
in the final container put in 16 ounces of latex and mix in the other 10 ounces of RO water.
After thoroughly mixing add in the contents of the original beaker and stir thoroughly.
Add in the whetted silica gel. I lowered my dosage of silica gel by around 30% this time.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This was much easier than the previous method and did not require a food processor (although, I did use silica gel that was previously run through a food processor). It probably took about 15 minutes from start to finish." 
I am about to start a brew. Been doing the same one since 2012.

1 part latex mbldr, 8oz
1 part slime plus, 8oz plus 4oz I have left over from past wrk
3 parts RV Anti. , 24oz
1 tbls modeler grass, 4 tbls for this mix

I have seen it last 6 to 8mnths and keep sealing. Depending on the weather and if the bike was in garage for the winter of in the spare room and only out for random winter rides.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am about to sit down and pick up from page 80. Last page I posted on and start reading.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

WerxRacing said:


> Having any luck with the change? Before I go shopping I need to get a list of goods for the newer drew. Last I was on here looking was 2013 at the brews. Then there was people trying new brew a chemist suggested.
> One of your first post on the new stuff "
> Quote Originally Posted by yourdaguy View Post
> News Flash: dissolving the xantham gum in the PG works great!
> ...


There are others here with way more practical experience than me - but I've been following this thread the whole time and I think most people have decided Xantham gum wasn't worth the hassle.

The simple RO H2O + PG + Latex + Ammonia mix ( with maybe cornmeal or a chunkalator of your choice ) seems to be the current winner. ( at least that's how I read it - although certainly peeps are using all manner of recipes )

Anyway, take my comment for what it's worth. ( not much )


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Xantham gum was a dead end. Seemed to increase buggers. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I think WSS is still the winner as far as functionality over time. The various chunkulators seem to decrease the sealant life. In my own experience, the fibers and chunks in slime/WSS don't seem to cause boogers unless a co2 inflator is used.


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## DennisF (Nov 4, 2011)

I' m gonna do this.

Michaels has a 50%-off coupon.
http://www.michaels.com/on/demandwa...sUS-Site/default/Coupons-ViewCoupons?storeid=

It must be used today. There is a 40%-off coupon for next week.


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

DennisF said:


> I' m gonna do this.
> 
> Michaels has a 50%-off coupon.
> Coupons at Michaels
> ...


Picked up mine yesterday at Michaels. Recommend shaking container to verify it's liquid. I have bought some at Michaels before that was solid and had to return it. No biggie but it's a hassle.


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## DennisF (Nov 4, 2011)

Hey Andy:

Good tip.

Was there any seal on the bottle? Someone here said to make sure the seal isn't broken, but they didn't mention the brand.

I went by Michaels. They had one bottle in stock. It wasn't sealed, so I opened it. Definitely not liquid -- more like yogurt. Didn't buy it.

I ordered a quart of PG from Amazon for $13 delivered. The extra will keep I guess. I have everything else except the latex.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

Regarding dried out latex....
I've had terrible luck ordering it from Amazon. Whoever is supplying it on there is pedaling old stock, I guess. Two in a row have been more yogurt-y as mentioned above....one I returned, the other we decided to go ahead and give it a go, and we now have a batch of sealant that creates monster boogers in about a week.... pretty much worthless.


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

I don't remember any seals on the 'Castin Craft' Mold Builder I buy at Michaels. The bad containers have been one solid mass of latex, or close to it. It's normally very thick, but consistent without chunks. And you can feel and hear it when you shake a container.


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## doismellbacon (Sep 20, 2007)

My mega-booger batch used latex with a consistency closer to Greek yogurt... it would pour, but just barely....bottom line, you're right, if it isn't liquid enough to slosh around freely in the container then it's no good.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

If liquid latex freezes it is ruined too, so be aware of that when storing it. It gets kind of thick and crumbly. 

I have never seen liquid latex that would slosh around, it's more like yogurt. The shake test is a good idea.

Claimed shelf life varies from 3 years to 6 months depending on the supplier.


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## pkzipper (Jan 18, 2016)

*Al liitle food for thought.*

So after reading most of the thread and all the different brews, along with doing some research about the different ingredients, it is easy to conclude the most brews work well depending on the conditions. However there is no real explanation of why you should or when or what should be considered in your brew and the effect it may or may not have.
This is why we have Stans, Orange Seal and many other store bought competitors. They all have different opinions on what works best in a wide variety of conditions. Those being Hot, cold, freezing, humid, dry, thorny, rooty, rocky, dirt, sand and any combination of.

1. * Latex *is a common and constant ingredient so we do not need to talk about that one.

2. *PG (Propylene Glycol), PEG (Polyethylene Glycol), Glycerin?* Each have very different properties, but have the same function.
- * PEG *is, by weight, in the middle of the three. It has the lowest freezing point of the three so is good for colder weather. It breaks down in about 2-3 months and is the thinnest of the bunch. Also the least environment friendly of the three.
- * PG* is the lightest, not as good in cold weather, breaks down in 3-6 months and is thicker then PEG. It is also more environmentally friendly than the above.
- * Glycerin *is the heaviest, has no anti-freezing properties, is the thickest but has the longest break down longevity. It is also the most expensive and environmentally friendly.

Depending on where, or when, you ride would dictate on what combination you should use. Desert riding would suggest you would use a pure Glycerin brew/potion and in cold conditions you would use a more PEG pure brew/potion. It goes without saying that the hotter it is, the thicker the solution you should use because it will get thinner as it gets hotter and the colder it is the thinner the potion should be, as it gets thicker the colder it is. Face it, we all probably make our brews/potions at some sort of room temp and ride in outside temp. As for where to get it Pharmacy are good but for an FYI fog machine fluids are combinations of the three (ie 50/50, 60/40 PEG/Glycerin etc.) so if you check your local special effects supplier they might be able to help out.

3. * Slime*, dog hair, corn meal or nothing? Well to each there own. The bigger the hole you may get the chunkier you need your brew to fill it. That is to give time for the latex to dry and seal.

4. * Ammonia?* It is used to raise the PH to 8.5 - 10 so the latex does not harden up. Considering the amounts I have seen going in, it will also have the effect to thin your brew a bit at the same time. If you can or want to check your PH, and make it perfect, get some litmus paper. Also you can adjust your PH by using baking soda in your water, or better yet go to your local hydroponic store and buy some "PH UP". With the PH up, ammonia or baking soda up the PH of your water to about 9.5 - 10. Check with litmus paper. P.S baking soda has a PH of 9.5 and water is 7-8 and ammonia is 11.

In short there is no perfect Brew for us all but with the above it may give us some insight of why some brews work for some and not for others. In order, for whatever brew/potion we use, to work properly, it needs to be the right consistency so that when a puncture occurs, it is thin/mobile enough to get to the puncture and thick enough to seal it.

Hope this helps a bit.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

test post, sorry to subscribers.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

snarky response.


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## DennisF (Nov 4, 2011)

Good post pkzipper. Question: what does the PG/PEG/glycerin do exactly? When it "breaks down", what does it break down to?

Walmart pharmacy has glycerin btw.

I got a good bottle of latex from Michael's finally. Would it be good to refrigerate the unopened bottle until I am ready to use it?


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## pkzipper (Jan 18, 2016)

Great questions. 

The peg/pg and glycerine has two main functions. One is to provide a suspension media for things like dog hair, cornmeal ect to float in and stay suspended and not sink to the bottom and separate from the mix. It also has anti-oxidation properties so things do not dry out. So when it breaks down things start drying out faster.

Not sure if the fridge will make a difference with the latex, I have never tried that. The biggest issue is if the ph of the latex drops it will start to harden up. ph drop occurs naturally with exposure to air and the evaporation of water. Hence the ammonia and the peg/pg to slow it down

Hope this helps


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## DennisF (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks again.

My primary design goal is long life. Amazon has Glycerin for only $12/qt.
Same price as PG. 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004C...s=glycerin&dpPl=1&dpID=312klhvGsnL&ref=plSrch
So I might write off my PG and use the glycerin instead. Or mix the two? I do need minimal freeze protection.

Will order some litmus paper too. I have been adding a little water to my tires to keep the goo moist. Maybe adding Ammonia would be better. I bet it is the most volatile ingredient.


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## pkzipper (Jan 18, 2016)

I wouldn't mix it with pg I would use PEG. Either the real stuff or rv antifreeze. If you use rv anti freeze it may have a few more additives than you don't want, but nothing that should cause issues. It is also a bit more liquid (watery) then straight up PEG. 3-1 glycerine to Antifreeze or 50/50 PEG Glycerine should be about the same and be good to about -10.

I mentioned the litmus paper as just a mention. I never tried it. I am not sure it would work because you would not be able to see the colour change through the rubbery mix you put on the paper. But maybe you will??

Adding water or ammonia straight into the tire might not work. I am not sure it would mix in properly to have any real effect. Ammonia would be better to help increase PH rather the water which would decrease it. But only a little. It is easy to distort the portion drastically with the few OZ that are in the tire.

Hopefully this is worthy of some reputation points??


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## pkzipper (Jan 18, 2016)

DennisF said:


> Thanks again.
> 
> My primary design goal is long life. Amazon has Glycerin for only $12/qt.
> Same price as PG.
> ...


Oh shoot!! I just noticed that PG is the same price as Glycerine. That's a good deal for glycerine but price or longevity are not the best reasons to buy.

Mixing glycerine to give it some freeze protecting would nullify the benefit of its minuscule extra longevity. Just use the PG! Glycerine is better suited for extreme heat.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

Latex does fine in the fridge.


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## westin (Nov 9, 2005)

After years of trying the best tubeless brews found in this thread, starting with Wadester's original recipe, I had the best luck with Slime Pro tubeless sealant on sale from REI. It's too spendy at msrp, but 16 oz for $9 was a deal, and saved me hassle of Hobby Lobby and WalMart for ingrdients.

So far it seals quicker and better than Stan's from a few years ago and their latest version. And it lasts a loooong time. My buddy has a good tubeless brew but it always dried up in my tires (Specialized non-Grid), Hutchinson Sector and Maxxis EXO TR. It's not humid here but we do get super dry summer. The aforementioned quick drying happens in the winter, too.

Not poo pooing any diy brew. It's fun. It's rewarding. It's a hobby. But for me and my needs the Slime Pro has been 100% reliable, long lasting, convenient and cheap (has to be on major sale for me).


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## DennisF (Nov 4, 2011)

PKZipper, you got the rep. I was on Tapatalk last night, so couldn't do it then.

Adding water to your tires definitely helps, if you don't wait too long. So long as it is still moist and somewhat liquid, water will thin it out. I have had them dry out to the point that it got a little leaky, and adding an ounce of water stopped it from leaking.

Will let you know on the litmus paper. I plan to dip it in, then wipe it off --hopefully the color will show then.

Thanks, Elwood. It is in the refrigerator.

Westin, good find on the REI/Slime Pro. It is my favorite too, although all I have ever used is Bontrager Superjuice, Stans, and regular old Slime Tubeless. It seals the best. It lasted about a year with one or two additions of water. I gave up on it because it is so expensive and difficult to find.
Slime Pro Tubeless Sealant - 16 fl. oz. - REI.com
Order 6 bottles and they pay shipping. If I were doing that would check on shelf life tho.

I looked at the MSDS for this stuff, and they use mostly Glycerin (Glycol is apparently another word for Glycerin).
http://slime.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Slime-Pro-Tubeless-Sealant.pdf
Does anyone have any idea what Alpha-iso-tridecyl-omega-hydroxy-polyglycolether is?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

DennisF said:


> (...)
> Does anyone have any idea what Alpha-iso-tridecyl-omega-hydroxy-polyglycolether is?


I'm guessing is a direct substitute for the ammonia, as they use latex and they don't use either Ammonia or Formaldehyde. They have to use something to keep the latex liquid, I'm guessing from the concentration (<3%) and it being an ether this is what they have chosen.


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## pkzipper (Jan 18, 2016)

Great score for you USA guys on Slime pro at REI.

Slime pro is pretty much just latex, ammonia and glycol brew, many have found adding cornmeal, or green slime with little chucks adds better and quicker protection from bigger punctures. So mixing slime pro 50/50 with slime would be like wads brew. Ah but the cost!!

I think that that PH and purity of the product is a big deal. I would think that if you made your water to a PH of 10 and mixed everything together, that should keep the whole brew around 10. That should also help with not diluting the brew to much with ammonia. The latex should already be around 10. Making the water 10 will keep it 10. The slime should be around 9 which just leaves the glycol. It to would be easily measured with litmus paper and should be around 9.5. So as long as everything is around 9.5 (8-10) in PH all should be good. However I have been reading some tech specs on a few products and there have been findings of PH levels in the low 6's within PEG, PG and more in Glycerine, especially old ones and it being exposed to light.

I think the key is to get that PH to 9.5. That will stop the latex drying out and also stop oxidation. Mixing the water to PH 9-10 will then help making the brew the right consistency without dropping the ph.

Thanks for the Reps Guys. Keep them coming.


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## DennisF (Nov 4, 2011)

Aglo said:


> I'm guessing is a direct substitute for the ammonia, as they use latex and they don't use either Ammonia or Formaldehyde. They have to use something to keep the latex liquid, I'm guessing from the concentration (>3%) and it being an ether this is what they have chosen.


Slime Pro does have ammonia. Look under "Notable Trace Components". 0.1% doesn't sound like a lot, but remember that the household ammonia we use is only 5% aqueous ammonia. So the amount in WSS is pretty low too.

ETA that I did the math and WSS has .25% actual ammonia, so you may well be right about the stuff with the long name is substituting for ammonia.

It would be interesting to test the PH of Slime Pro and other commercial latex-based goos.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

DennisF said:


> Slime Pro does have ammonia. Look under "Notable Trace Components". 0.1% doesn't sound like a lot(...)


Yes, I did noticed. But when the latex is extracted, to prevent polymerization, they either use Ammonia or Formaldehyde. As Formaldehyde is not listed as a trace component I assume they used ammonia, as it is listed as a trace component with a concentration of ≤0.1%.
Which is pretty low when compared to the normal concentration of ammonia in the latex, as you already noticed.


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## DennisF (Nov 4, 2011)

Aglo, that makes sense -- the little ammonia they have came incidentally with the latex.

I ordered one of these to measure PH.
Robot Check
It looks like it would be impossible to get more than a ballpark figure by matching colors, and the color of the liquid itself should not matter.


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

I use Ammonia (not household kind) at 25% concentration with Glycerine, Latex and distilled water, I usually get around 6 months in Mediterranean weather (not too cold or hot) using around 120ml (4 oz?) per tyre.
In 2 years haven't got a single booger, and when I have to refill is because it has evaporated most of it.
The only reason I use Glycerine is because is available here everywhere: supermarket,grocery store,hardwarestore,pharmacy,etc.. where I would have to order PG online and abroad.

If house hold Ammonia has 5 to 10% concentration (maybe not enough to raise PH properly) and the rest is basically water with maybe a few additives and if you're still adding water to the mix as well, so why not just use plain (household) Ammonia and ditch the water altogether? Just a thought...not a chemist.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I haven't made a batch of my homebrew in quite a while and have been just using Stan's again. Its not cheap but it does work v. well and I only need to re-fresh every few months. I think after this bottle I will motivate again and go get some latex to make BAMFS.


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## DennisF (Nov 4, 2011)

I ran out of goo except for a couple free sample bottles of Stans. I added 5% household ammonia to it before using it. (according to the MSDS it doesn't have ammonia). 

Too early to tell how long it will last, but it sure sealed great. It quickly and totally sealed a thin sidewalled tire with a puncture in the sidewall that I had plugged with those sticky black cords made for car tires. The Slime Pro that was in it was getting old, and I had to add air every two days or so. I added 1 oz of the modified Stans and after about 2 weeks I haven't had to add air.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Stan's isn't the big name in sealant b/c it doesn't work well. It works great out of the bottle is the reason I tried to my my home-brew a copy of it...basically just to save money.


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## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

TiGeo said:


> ^^^Stan's isn't the big name in sealant b/c it doesn't work well. It works great out of the bottle is the reason I tried to my my home-brew a copy of it...basically just to save money.


Me too. Stan's is about $1.25/ounce and my home brew works out to be about 30 cents/ounce. In hot AZ we go through sealant in the summer big time.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

I'm going to try the Guitar Ted/MG brew; 3 tablespoons of latex mould builder to 3-4 oz. of windshield washer fluid when my Orange Seal runs out. No corrosive Ammonia need be added that ruins rims and tires.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

MikeDee said:


> I'm going to try the Guitar Ted/MG brew; 3 tablespoons of latex mould builder to 3-4 oz. of windshield washer fluid when my Orange Seal runs out. No corrosive Ammonia need be added that ruins rims and tires.


As long as you realize that WWF was originally in the mix because it contained ammonia (like windex). Nowadays its soapy water with methanol and maybe antifreeze.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

MTBeing said:


> Me too. Stan's is about $1.25/ounce and my home brew works out to be about 30 cents/ounce. In hot AZ we go through sealant in the summer big time.


WSS works much better than Stans, IMO. I/we have done some comparative tests on hard to inflate tubeless conversions. Basically, the very thin cafe latex blew big bubbles but did little else. Tire was rinsed out and filled 2 oz. of Stans, and while bubble size was significantly smaller, the tire still would not inflate. Tire was rinsed again and 2 oz. of WSS was added, and the tire blew a couple bubbles and inflated. The Italian heritage guy who instigated the test was a cafe latex user because it was made in Italy and therefor superior. Stans was tried next, because it was commercially made, then the WSS in final desperation. :eekster:


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## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

bsieb said:


> WSS works much better than Stans, IMO. I/we have done some comparative tests on hard to inflate tubeless conversions. Basically, the very thin cafe latex blew big bubbles but did little else. Tire was rinsed out and filled 2 oz. of Stans, and while bubble size was significantly smaller, the tire still would not inflate. Tire was rinsed again and 2 oz. of WSS was added, and the tire blew a couple bubbles and inflated. The Italian heritage guy who instigated the test was a cafe latex user because it was made in Italy and therefor superior. Stans was tried next, because it was commercially made, then the WSS in final desperation. :eekster:


Agreed. In my experience the WSS bubbles very little compared to Stans. Never tried CL but I don't have much reason too at this point.


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## TracksFromHell (Jul 9, 2014)

westin said:


> After years of trying the best tubeless brews found in this thread, starting with Wadester's original recipe, I had the best luck with Slime Pro tubeless sealant on sale from REI. It's too spendy at msrp, but 16 oz for $9 was a deal, and saved me hassle of Hobby Lobby and WalMart for ingrdients.
> 
> So far it seals quicker and better than Stan's from a few years ago and their latest version. And it lasts a loooong time. My buddy has a good tubeless brew but it always dried up in my tires (Specialized non-Grid), Hutchinson Sector and Maxxis EXO TR. It's not humid here but we do get super dry summer. The aforementioned quick drying happens in the winter, too.
> 
> Not poo pooing any diy brew. It's fun. It's rewarding. It's a hobby. But for me and my needs the Slime Pro has been 100% reliable, long lasting, convenient and cheap (has to be on major sale for me).


Ditto. Got 4 of the 16oz Slime Pro at REI on sale and haven't looked back.

But I will try the orange stuff next.

Slime Pro also comes in a 4 litre bottle for bike shops or sealant addicts.

But after 6 months it does booger up in the tires a bit and a remount requires a lot of de-boogering to get everything clean and ready.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok, check it yo!

Stan's Race Sealant - Quart

I wonder what the deale-o on this is. Expensive. I wonder if it lasts longer? Sounds like a more viscous mix due to more "crystals" (cornmeal?). I wonder if Stan himself peruses these pages?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> Ok, check it yo!
> 
> Stan's Race Sealant - Quart
> 
> I wonder what the deale-o on this is. Expensive. I wonder if it lasts longer? Sounds like a more viscous mix due to more "crystals" (cornmeal?). I wonder if Stan himself peruses these pages?


Reports are that it dries out faster, even Stan's says to check every 2 weeks instead of 4 weeks.
New Goo: Stan's Race Sealant - NSMB.com

Read a real life racer comment on Twitter that you sometimes have to cut the tire off since it seals the bead so well. (Have not been able to find the quote again though.)


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Holy @#[email protected]#$


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## rumblytumbly (Jun 5, 2013)

*oops, wrong mix*

Okay, I'll welcome criticism for only skimming the last few pages of this thread and a few others to determine what the latest hot mix was. Here's what I ordered:

http://www.amazon.com/Environmental...1457412849&sr=8-2&keywords=latex+mold+builder latex mold builder

http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Dep...ie=UTF8&qid=1457413115&sr=8-2&keywords=glycol and standard glycol

Plus regular tire Slime from the local Napa.

So, 1 part Slime, 1 part latex, 2 parts glycol. Seemed to mix together just fine in a 20 oz pop bottle. Went to pour it out to measure and it became apparent there was a giant booger in the bottle. Wondered if the culprit was the Slime or the latex. Tested with a tablespoon of latex and glycol in a separate container and sure enough as soon as the I shook it up the latex turned into a ball of virtual rubber bands in the mix with glycol. Sooooo, apparently this type of latex is not compatible with glycol. The Slime dissolves with it fine.
So, what type of latex is compatible with glycol? The latex I ordered was ammonia mixed so apparently ammonia is not compatible with glycol?


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

For skimming the last few pages, you came pretty close, but now you see what that 'only counts in horse shoes and handgernades'. 
And it looks like you did good to get the USP food grade, so contaminants issue.

> So, 1 part Slime, 1 part latex, 2 parts glycol

Perhaps that should have been: 1 part slime, 1 part latex, 2 parts carrier fluid (1 part water, 1 part PG). 
Another variation we see: .3 part slime, 1 part latex, 2 parts water and 2 or 2.3 parts PG. With or without the Slime.

Did you miss or did I miss your using RO water or RO/DI water to dilute the Propylene Glycol to make "Carrier fluid". Some recipes mix 1:1, others 2 parts water to 1 part PG (a few near 3:1). Mixing those will make some heat. Set it aside to cool.

Some mix half the water with the PG (to make the carrier fluid), the other half of the water is mixed with the latex and any other ingredients. Later you combine the two mixtures to make your sealant.

I'm not going to give you an actual recipe (typically they have a name to go with it), as you need to match that with ingredients *and* its mixing procedure. 
So you're going to have to go back and pick an actual recipe, preferably one with a track record, and use its mixing procedure.

There's also the possibility that your latex is simply old too. Do make sure if you opened the container prior to mixing that you sealed it well again, or else the ammonia will off gas and will no longer be present to stop the latex from polymerizing. Which is also why some recipes add some ammonia to their mix.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

WSS- 2 parts water, 1 part PG, 1 part tubeless slime, 1/4 part ammonia, 1 part latex, mixed in that order. The latex will last longer if it is mixed, so I mix 16 oz. "parts" in the above recipe, which yields 84 oz of excellent sealant, which will last at least 2 years in the jar, in my experience.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

BAMFS v. 2.0 (Stan's-like)	
Latex: 1 part (Mold Builder @ Hobby Lobby or similar)
Propylene glycol: 2 parts (Tractor Supply)
Distilled water: 2 parts
Ammonia: 0.3 parts
Cornmeal: 1 tbs (Kroger)

Mixing order: water, PG, ammonia, latex, cornmeal


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## rumblytumbly (Jun 5, 2013)

thanks canoe/tigeo/bsieb
Yeah, glad I only did a small batch and didn't waste all my ingredients. I shouldn't just skim...was thinking PG that would already be diluted but went with glycol which was not diluted so I had no water in the mix and did not pay attention to adding in order. Doh!
So, glad I could contribute to what not to do unless you want to end up with a $5 baseball sized booger of unusable latex.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm liking the wss/oss combo. Oss with corn meal. Never get flats anymore since going this route season before last. Only have goat heads at worst to worry about normally though. I enjoy the fact that's something I don't have to worry about after catching a goat head a bit before a fast corner. Almost resulted in a head vs tree fight.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## blubayou (Dec 31, 2015)

Picked up PG, mold builder, ammonia, distilled water and two types of tape last night, and planning to mix up a batch this weekend. Wondering a couple things. First, what do the masses think of the effectiveness of added glitter? My wife is a teacher, so we have tons in every color, including this type of stuff, 1/4" long "sliver glitter":









Thoughts on whether this might be better or worse than regular glitter or some other material? I also have regular glitter, black pepper, corn meal and corn GRITS. The grits are much like corn meal, but more coarse. Thinking that may encourage build up around a leak?

The other question I have is pretty simple. Should I mix all of the materials at once (full batch) or do it little by little. Which approach will result in the longest shelf life? I believe it is the former, but thought i should ask before going all in.


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## Oh My Sack! (Aug 21, 2006)

You guys using the Slime Pro, when you break the bead on your tires that your using it in, what color is it? I haven't used Pro but I'm using a test product from Slime. The stuff is awesome and I'm hoping it goes into production. I'm not familiar with the properties of Pro, though. I need to check with my source.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

blubayou said:


> Picked up PG, mold builder, ammonia, distilled water and two types of tape last night, and planning to mix up a batch this weekend. Wondering a couple things. First, what do the masses think of the effectiveness of added glitter? My wife is a teacher, so we have tons in every color, including this type of stuff, 1/4" long "sliver glitter":


Regular "flat plate" glitter was bad. The plates worked into the bead and pried it apart. The one place where a hole had been sealed was all fiber and chunks - with glitter only on the inner surface. Flat strip glitter might work, but I'm done with glitter.



blubayou said:


> The other question I have is pretty simple. Should I mix all of the materials at once (full batch) or do it little by little. Which approach will result in the longest shelf life? I believe it is the former, but thought i should ask before going all in.


Several of us have found that untouched latex goes "bad" - dries and congeals into a nonuseful form. But once mixed into sealant it will keep for more than a year, even in an almost empty container. The only reason for a small batch is to experiment - so you don't make a bad move and have to either dispose of or put up with a marginal or bad mix.

Enjoy.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Glitter tended to seed boogers. Corn seems to react less. Hard to tell about your specific glitter. Make a batch and put the glitter in one tire and not in the other and report back. Experimenting has been the best part of this thread.


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## TracksFromHell (Jul 9, 2014)

Oh My Sack! said:


> You guys using the Slime Pro, when you break the bead on your tires that your using it in, what color is it? I haven't used Pro but I'm using a test product from Slime. The stuff is awesome and I'm hoping it goes into production. I'm not familiar with the properties of Pro, though. I need to check with my source.


Dark green. Almost a brownish-grey green but still green enough to be green.

Slime Pro is good stuff.
I prefer it after trying Stans.
Slime Pro seems a bit thicker and foamier right off the start.

I use it to bead my tires as well and I've never burped or busted a seam.
But them I'm no pro or hard core DH rider ....

It smells nice too.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

One of the issues with glitter or any other hard bits is that they get in between the bead and the rim and don't deform to the shape but can cause sealing issues. Cornmeal is soft and will not do this.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## blubayou (Dec 31, 2015)

Thanks for the info guys. I did read most of my way through this threadmonster, but didn't catch those notes. I'll do some experimenting with this glitter and other solids and see how it turns out.

I also bought clear gorilla tape and transparent scotch tough tape, which some claim to be better than the gorilla tape; I may do one wheel with each to see how they compare.


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## blubayou (Dec 31, 2015)

Got the brew made and one wheel taped up and the tire mounted. Using old tubes for their valve stems, so I set the bead then pulled one side to put in the brew. All seemed good, though I seem to be having a small pesky leak right where the tire meets the rim seam. 

I did not put any solids in the mix, so if I can't get that spot sealed I may pop it open and throw some corn meal in. If that won't work, I will pull the tire and try to address the rim and/or tire, whichever seems to be the problem.

Rim is a wtb asym and tire is maxxis ardent exo (not tr)


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

I know most people don't like to do it for different reasons, but when taping a rim bed I like to tape wall to wall and at least tape up half the wall.
Obviously this have different results depending on the rim/tire combo, but on average, taping up half the wall worked great on some not so good rim/tire combo.


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## blubayou (Dec 31, 2015)

The mix is pretty watery, though I have nothing to compare it to as I have never been without tubes. Should it be like milk when using the PG, ammonia, latex and distilled water brew? How quickly should it dry up when exposed or coming through a pinhole (if that can be estimated)?

Sorry for all the question!

Oh, super. One more question. The bead sealed well in most spots aside from the rim seam. Should it leak when I press against the sidewall in random spots? They stop when I let go, but I am wondering how that plays out when riding. Should I intentionally press the sidewalls to get sealant in there?


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## blubayou (Dec 31, 2015)

Aglo said:


> I know most people don't like to do it for different reasons, but when taping a rim bed I like to tape wall to wall and at least tape up half the wall.
> Obviously this have different results depending on the rim/tire combo, but on average, taping up half the wall worked great on some not so good rim/tire combo.


I can't tell if the leak is due to the rim or the tire bead. Tape up the wall may work if I get to that point.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

blubayou said:


> The mix is pretty watery, though I have nothing to compare it to as I have never been without tubes. Should it be like milk when using the PG, ammonia, latex and distilled water brew?


I have tried different concentration of the various ingredients and some brews were more watery, but they all sealed ok, but some were just faster.



blubayou said:


> How quickly should it dry up when exposed or coming through a pinhole (if that can be estimated)?


Temperature, humidity, age of the mix, purity of the components, concentration of the components, the phase of the moon, pick one 



blubayou said:


> Oh, super. One more question. The bead sealed well in most spots aside from the rim seam. Should it leak when I press against the sidewall in random spots? They stop when I let go, but I am wondering how that plays out when riding. Should I intentionally press the sidewalls to get sealant in there?


Never happened to me, what pressures are we talking about? When setting up a tire, I usually go up to around 45PSI, and let it rest. Then let air out to the desired pressure.


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## blubayou (Dec 31, 2015)

Ha. Figured the time to seal was a crapshoot question.

Me thinks the bead to rim fit isn't ideal, so I may end up pulling the tire and taping further out/up. Thanks!


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Tire/rim combinations can be a crap shoot as well. There is no standard really which is stupid. And you can spend days trying to figure out what combos work best before buying. Nothing wrong with running tape all the way over the bead seats. No reason to go up the walls though. Air up around 40 psi, do the shake for a bit and let them sit. Rinse and repeat the next day and you'll be good to drop pressure to what you want and go ride.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

You should have used cornmeal in the mix you listed (mine it looks like).

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## blubayou (Dec 31, 2015)

I was thinking of throwing some in today, but when I checked on it before heading to work I found that it had held pressure over night. That doesn't mean the cornmeal shouldn't be added, but it was good to see that it was able to hold air now with just the mix and no cornmeal.

I have to pop the bead in one spot to add more mix for protection while riding, since I used/lost quite a bit while getting it sealed.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I know that on welded rims that I have (NoTubes and Surly) they only clean up the weld bead mostly. Particularly in the bed of the bead area there is still weld bead - and I have learned to take a dremel and clean that up/flatten it out for best results. Not sure this is your problem, but worth mentioning.


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## blubayou (Dec 31, 2015)

My ardent with the brew has held pressure for 5 or 6 days, but I popped the bead off one side today and added cornmeal and a bit more brew to replace what was lost initially. Reset the bead with the compressor and she sealed right up. No issues with the seam this time

Before redoing the ardent, I mounted a new Goma TNT on the front wheel I just built (WTB ASYM i35 rim), added the brew with cornmeal and that sealed without a drop of sealant showing itself. Crazy how much tighter the bead is on that tire vs the non-TR Ardent.

Time to start riding this new bike and playing with pressure


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## o.b. (Jul 10, 2006)

Just wondering for those who have used solutions with ammonia. Have you had any problems with corrosion with aluminum rims? I have read that the ammonia degrades tempered aluminium.

Thanks for the info.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

You don't want the ammonia in direct contact with aluminum. Both for dissolving the aluminum (it's dilute, but over time an issue) and for the ammonia being neutralized and no longer able to do its job of inhibiting the setting up of the latex. 
Tubeless setups usually have some means of sealing the aluminum from the ammonia, be it: anodized, painted or most often sealed from the ammonia by some additional barrier, as in tape.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Canoe said:


> You don't want the ammonia in direct contact with aluminum. Both for dissolving the aluminum (it's dilute, but over time an issue) and for the ammonia being neutralized and no longer able to do its job of inhibiting the setting up of the latex.
> Tubeless setups usually have some means of sealing the aluminum from the ammonia, be it: anodized, painted or most often sealed from the ammonia by some additional barrier, as in tape.


I think the galvanic corrosion is a bigger problem, carbon and aluminum (look it up). I've been decreasing my ammonia over time and replacing it with water and I haven't noticed any detrimental effects. The latex mold builder seems to already have a healthy amount of ammonia in it (when you smell it), so over time I've just relied mostly on that to do the job, along with my other ingredients (automobile-slime, antifreeze and water). Although I've slowly changed the solution a bit over the last few years, making my own home-brew stuff has worked out excellent, with many tire changes and resettings.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

But, if the mixture is exposed to aluminum, the ammonia in the mixture will be depleted, be it that already in the mold builder or additional added. 

Carbon || metals is something people don't seem to pay attention to. 
Seem to be seeing more painted carbon parts after there's been some time with warranty claims?


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

One thing you have to realize here - ammonia attacks aluminum, but not aluminum oxide. Also know as anodizing, or normal oxidation of exposed raw aluminum.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

I thought anodized (and preferably sealed afterwards) was protected, but naturally oxidized (like protects lawnchairs) wasn't?

~Edit: found this. Saw similar at a machinists site.

_Aluminum seatposts frequently become stuck by corrosion also, and penetrating oil is almost useless against aluminum oxide. Fortunately, aluminum oxide can be dissolved like magic by using ammonia. _
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html​


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

o.b. said:


> Just wondering for those who have used solutions with ammonia. Have you had any problems with corrosion with aluminum rims? I have read that the ammonia degrades tempered aluminium.
> 
> Thanks for the info.


No issues.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I have anodized Flow's that were in direct contact with ammonia for several years because I didn't have the wider tape the first time I taped them and there was no damage. I am pretty sure annodizing protects aluminum from ammonia. Aluminum oxide is a compound of aluminum and oxygen which is the result of corrosion. Annodizing is only a few molicules thick and seatposts are subject to the abrasion of metal against metal and flexing, etc. which can physically rub the annodized surface off allowing the aluminum below to oxydize, ammonia is a strong base and IIRC that means it is craving electrons and it would peal the oxygen atoms from the aluminum oxide.
And now that I think about it, if ammonia takes the oxygen out of aluminum oxide, would it not also grab the free oxygen that might want to corrode a spot on a rim that had a scratch (annodizing pierced)? This makes sense since my Fllows probably had tiny scratches here or there and none of them turned into flaky aluminum oxide deposits.
So, I am going to go out on a limb and say that ammonia is not corrosive to aluminum rims in any way and might even be protective by reacting with any free oxygen atoms. In fact, now that I think about it more isn't acid corrosive and the opposite of a base?


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Anodizing is aluminum oxide, and hard anodizing is a coating of sapphire, which is also an aluminum oxide. I've seen plenty of bare aluminum rims that are pitted and have powdery residue on them, which I assume is also aluminum oxide. Soooo, there's something going on here in the differences between these aluminum oxides that I don't know about or understand.


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## MikeDee (Nov 17, 2004)

All you have to do is do a Google search to find evidence of corrosion on aluminum rims due to ammonia in sealant. Adding more ammonia in a home brew when the mold builder already contains ammonia increases the risk that you will corrode your rims, and is unsubstantiated that it is even necessary. Guitar Ted uses a combination of mold builder and windshield washer solution in his tubeless brew that he's been using for years with excellent results, and it contains no more ammonia than that which is already in the mold builder. The windshield washer solution contains no ammonia. Where's the proof that you need to add ammonia?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

MikeDee said:


> All you have to do is do a Google search to find evidence of corrosion on aluminum rims due to ammonia in sealant. Adding more ammonia in a home brew when the mold builder already contains ammonia increases the risk that you will corrode your rims, and is unsubstantiated that it is even necessary. Guitar Ted uses a combination of mold builder and windshield washer solution in his tubeless brew that he's been using for years with excellent results, and it contains no more ammonia than that which is already in the mold builder. The windshield washer solution contains no ammonia. Where's the proof that you need to add ammonia?


I've been using 1/2 cup per 80 oz batch of WSS for a long time with no evidence of corrosion. That said, I don't have any bare aluminum rims. I have never seen evidence of any corrosion in any rim ever but that's just me.

I did accidentally once put 16 oz. of ammonia in a full 80 oz batch by mistake, in place of pg, and the only thing I noticed when I opened the bead was that the sealant sort of shrank away from the rubber tire wall at the edge of the puddle, which disappeared when I added the pg several weeks later when I noticed the amounts missing from the full bottles were wrong. That was the last time I tried to photograph the process, :madman: but I have made six or more full batches since then, that gets used in a dozen or more bikes and a variety of rims, and have never seen or had of a problem reported. But the high ammonia batch was super smooth and creamy, although it had a very intense ammonia smell. :yikes: :nono:

I assume many others have had similar results.


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## SpecialCshoe (Mar 29, 2016)

wadester said:


> Since 5/04 I been running:
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 1 part Slime tubeless
> 1 part cheap antifreeze
> ...


my hero!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I had bad tire side wall weepage with the WSS blends using Slime.


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## SpecialCshoe (Mar 29, 2016)

I use 2 parts stans tubeless and 1 part green slime. A new tire will receive 140ml exactly. I do need to keep adding in order to have some loose media floating around inside the tire. I will rejoice it with 30 ml within a month of the initial fill. I like the idea of using antifreeze and water in conjunction with green slime and stans as an anti coagulant. I think if I can keep from adding over a period of time the trade off will be less rotating mass. One must try this


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

SpecialCshoe said:


> my hero!


this is an old post. don't do the glitter.


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## Rumblefish29er (Oct 6, 2012)

So I tried the Slime/builders mold/rv antifreeze mix. How the heck did you guys get it mixed properly? I have massive chunks of the latex mold still after a ton of shaking.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Rumblefish29er said:


> So I tried the Slime/builders mold/rv antifreeze mix. How the heck did you guys get it mixed properly? I have massive chunks of the latex mold still after a ton of shaking.....
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Ammonia.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Your latex might be too old, or you didn't add ingredients in the right order?


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## RubeRad (Jul 1, 2013)

Hey all, a while back I went through hundreds (1000?) of the posts on this thread, and I remember at one point, somebody did the service of restating and naming some of the most common recipes that turn up a lot throughout this thread. I can't find it again now.

I'm looking into mixing my own, and it would really be helpful if somebody that is more familiar with this whole thread could do that again, or at least drop a direct link to that specific post if they know how to find it.

thanks so much!


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## Rumblefish29er (Oct 6, 2012)

Ok I am obsessed with this now. Some observations:

I can't seem to get the builders mold to the right consistency. It basically stays in big chunks while maybe a tiny bit dissolves in the slime. For the second batch, I am letting it soak in some water with a touch of ammonia to see if it will disperse more before adding slime. Maybe it's really old stuff? It's more of s thick jello consistency than anything liquid.

While that's brewing, I tried two other recipes:

1. Latex caulk mixed with water and a touch of ammonia, shaken, then added an equal amount of slime, shaken, and then about the same amount of RV antifreeze. So roughly 1/3 of each (the caulk was mixed with water so it was maybe 25%). I threw this in the front tire which was freshly gorilla taped, and it mounted up instantly with no leaks. I'll monitor over the coming days and provide an update.

2. Latex primer/sealant. This came In a mini paint can and was white. Kilz2 Latex (water based) was the brand from Home Depot. It was quite liquid already, so I mixed it directly with RV antifreeze, shook it, then added an equal amount of slime. Again, probably 1/3 of each. The consistency was thinner than the above. Threw this in a gorilla taped rear wheel and it again mounted right up. The valve took a few additional shakes to seal but actually stopped leaking in less than a minute. It may need something to thicken it up like cornmeal or glitter.

More to follow.




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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Rumblefish29er said:


> So I tried the Slime/builders mold/rv antifreeze mix. How the heck did you guys get it mixed properly? I have massive chunks of the latex mold still after a ton of shaking.....
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I just mixed up my spring batch, I wish I took pictures so you could compare - but I agree your latex must have been bad. It should not be Jello like in consistency ... more like ... warm honey or ... something thick but liquid - absolutely nothing chunky about it. super thick cream. or paint.

So when you mix, it should stay all liquid.

Curious about your testing with the stuff you got at Home Depot ( latex in paint can ). The mold builder, even with a 40% off coupon is the most expensive part of the mix. Would love an alternative.

The only good tests unfortunately in my mind involve putting holes in your tire. Everything else is fairly subjective ... because there are too many variables.

If it seals punctures, that's the test.


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## Rumblefish29er (Oct 6, 2012)

Rumblefish29er said:


> Ok I am obsessed with this now. Some observations:
> 
> I can't seem to get the builders mold to the right consistency. It basically stays in big chunks while maybe a tiny bit dissolves in the slime. For the second batch, I am letting it soak in some water with a touch of ammonia to see if it will disperse more before adding slime. Maybe it's really old stuff? It's more of s thick jello consistency than anything liquid.
> 
> ...


Update - the caulk mix seems to be holding air just fine...no punctures to test out yet though.

Mix #2 is also holding air with no punctures to report.


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

Someone else used the latex chalk in this thread. I can't find any reference to the latex primer. Tried reading the MSDS, but didn't help me. Can't tell if it really is liquid latex or not! Drying time of 30 minutes didn't sound encouraging, but that's a brush on application.


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## hkenshin (Apr 7, 2008)

Revisiting this thread after using Slime/DI/latex for years and starting to get less longevity after moving to the midwest.

A couple of pages back someone mentioned polyethylene glycol; I was like Miralax?! So has anyone used this instead of RV antifreeze? It's super cheap generic OTC in powder form, probably ends up being cheaper than PG from Tractor Supply/Farm and Fleet by volume after it's mixed. Plus if you have elderly family members you probably already have it


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## sennaster (Sep 21, 2006)

Rumblefish29er said:


> Ok I am obsessed with this now. Some observations:
> 
> I can't seem to get the builders mold to the right consistency. It basically stays in big chunks while maybe a tiny bit dissolves in the slime. For the second batch, I am letting it soak in some water with a touch of ammonia to see if it will disperse more before adding slime. Maybe it's really old stuff? It's more of s thick jello consistency than anything liquid.


Recently mixed some of this. If the mold builder was like jello, then perhaps it was old or not mixed very well itself.

When I get the latex I always shake the heck out of it first and it's always been a honey like consistency and easily poured.










Mold builder, slime, RV antifreeze + water .... Then shake


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

Anyone have any thoughts about setting up Skyway wheels tubeless? Thinking about trying it on kiddo's Strider just for the heck of it


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## geekonabike (Jun 1, 2010)

MikeyLikesIt said:


> Hey wadester, or anyone...
> 
> Is latex the base material for Slime?? I live in a small town and the 'Mold Maker' (liquid latex) can't be found localy. :madmax: I was just wondering if your formula would work using an extra part Slime (in place of the mold maker). I can get Slime just about anywhere and it is relatively inexpensive.
> 
> Mikey


This guy had some sucess using very cheap DAP Painters Acrililc Latex Caulk: DIY Tubeless Conversion with Homebrew Sealant | HuckingKitty!
A lot more elbow grease to get the thicker caulk to liquidify, but hard to beat the $2.00 price


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

slcpunk said:


> I just mixed up my spring batch, I wish I took pictures so you could compare - but I agree your latex must have been bad. It should not be Jello like in consistency ... more like ... warm honey or ... something thick but liquid - absolutely nothing chunky about it. super thick cream. or paint.
> 
> So when you mix, it should stay all liquid.
> 
> ...


Whats in Slime?

I thought it would already have the PG in it, eliminating the need for the anti freeze?

If that's the case Slime plus ammonia, latex and some water, and cornmeal might be good.

Slime is often on sale at Wlly World.

Just a thought.

I've yet to find RV antifreeze without additives.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Miker J said:


> (...)
> I've yet to find RV antifreeze without additives.


RV antifreeze is water + propylene glycol + color (pink).
You can do better, you can use propylene glycol (PG) instead of the RV.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

I'm using a variation of BAMFS v3.0 and I'm totally happy with it, It don't create buggers, it last for months even after several tires swap and using the same sealant that was previously in the tire, and despite having a lot of tire punctures I didn't get a single flat, except for a 2cm side wall slash on a paper thin side wall tire, good luck in sealing that .
But I'm the kind of guy that "If ain't broken, improve it!"
So, I'm seeing a lot of people using slime, but using slime in my brew would rise the price a significant amount, then I saw Slime on a car shop at literally half the price, and as I was going to make a new batch I decide to get it.

I did the batch and already test it.
It seems to be working fine, no leaks, no tire deflation, and love the green .

So, my question. Is the Slime for the car's tires, the same for the bike's tires?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Aglo said:


> I'm using a variation of BAMFS v3.0 and I'm totally happy with it, It don't create buggers, it last for months even after several tires swap and using the same sealant that was previously in the tire, and despite having a lot of tire punctures I didn't get a single flat, except for a 2cm side wall slash on a paper thin side wall tire, good luck in sealing that .
> But I'm the kind of guy that "If ain't broken, improve it!"
> So, I'm seeing a lot of people using slime, but using slime in my brew would rise the price a significant amount, then I saw Slime on a car shop at literally half the price, and as I was going to make a new batch I decide to get it.
> 
> ...


Glad to see my BAMFS v3.0 is working for you. If this works, why bother going back to the WSS-type receipe with Slime? I started there, and it worked, but my feeling was something in the Slime was causing my sidewalls to weep that didn't happen with my various BAMFS sealants.


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## RubeRad (Jul 1, 2013)

Still hoping for a re-summary of the consensus recipes that have emerged from this thread...

Aglo, what's the recipe for BAMFS v3.0? I want a recipe that doesn't use Slime, because what's the point of making a homebrew sealant, if one of the ingredients is commercial sealant?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Not to be rude, but just Google "bamfs 3 mtbr" and I bet you can find it in the thread.

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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

TiGeo said:


> Glad to see my BAMFS v3.0 is working for you. If this works, why bother going back to the WSS-type receipe with Slime? I started there, and it worked, but my feeling was something in the Slime was causing my sidewalls to weep that didn't happen with my various BAMFS sealants.


Mostly because after the sealant get dry in the tire it's a pain to get it out, it really stick to the tire :skep:.
I know it's me and my friend being lazy, but some times we totally forgot to check the sealant, what is a good thing, because it means it's doing his job properly .

And as a peace of mind I wanted to add some chunklators.
But don't want to add purple glitters, nor cornmeal, nor Dane hair .

Did you added PG in your WSS brew?



RubeRad said:


> Still hoping for a re-summary of the consensus recipes that have emerged from this thread...
> 
> Aglo, what's the recipe for BAMFS v3.0? I want a recipe that doesn't use Slime, because what's the point of making a homebrew sealant, if one of the ingredients is commercial sealant?


Ok this are the recipes I have saved in my PC, don't know if they are the most recent or not.

*WSS V3 as per Wadester:*

1 PG
2 distilled water
1/2 clear ammonia
1 slime
1 latex
1/2 additional chunkulations

*OSS v1.0f:*

16 oz PG
26 oz RO water
4 oz ammonia
32 oz latex
1/2 additional chunkulations

*BAMFS v3.0 *(Stan's clone + ammonia + XG.)

PG/GL : 2 parts - 200ml
DI water : 2 parts - 200ml
Latex : 1 part - 100ml
Ammonia : 0.3 parts - 30ml
Cornmeal : 1 tbs
XG : 1 pinch

*My* variation of BAMFS
BAMFS v3.1B

PG : 2 parts - 200ml
DI water : 2 parts - 200ml
Latex : 2 parts - 200ml
Ammonia : 0.5 parts - 50ml

I don't add XG.
Also I don't like the idea of adding cornmeal because I don't know what is in there and if anything in the cornmeal cause boogers.

The mix order in all the recipes is by the order the components are listed, and everytime you mix something in, you stir and let it rest for a while before add something in again.


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## RubeRad (Jul 1, 2013)

Thanks, that's awesome!

I feel pro-XG (would like a little extra thickness) and pro-cornmeal (so happy 'chunkulator' is a word (thanks to this thread)), so I will be trying BAMFS 3.0. Got a Michaels just down the street, so hopefully I can get some good fresh latex mold builder.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

FYI your standard cornmeal has nothing in it, never had it cause a single booger. But if I break the bead, pieces of dried sealant (like strands from the bead seal) create boogers in a hurry.

Never has a single issue with 3.0 or me adding slime to 3.0. works great, no boogers in the 29er. Fat bike I accidently got something in the tire during set up that created a hellva booger in a week. Had to redo the set up and been fine since.

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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I have never had an issue with boogers...in Stan's, BAMFs, or WSS. I change/refresh every few months which is likely why. You need sometinng in there to help plug the holes. The WSS uses the rubber bits in the Slime. The BAMFS uses cornmeal, supposedly like Stan's does. My actual formula is the regular ol' BAMFS v2.0 which is same as above minus XG (don't see it does anything).


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## mces (Apr 12, 2011)

Which slime product is everyone using in WSS V3?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

mces said:


> Which slime product is everyone using in WSS V3?


Any Slime that doesn't say "Tube Sealant".

I don't recall specifically why.

edit: From the Slime website, "The inner tube formulation should not be used in a tubeless tire. Slime sealants are designed to treat tread area punctures only and should not be used to repair sidewall punctures, snake bites, rim spoke punctures or gashes from metal or glass."


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

It was the ATV one if I recall correctly. Small black rubber bits.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Interesting, it appears Slime has updated it's offerings a little, so look for "Tire Sealant", as opposed to "Tube Sealant" or "Thru-Core". I would guess the "Tire Sensor Safe" non-toxic version is good too but have not tried it, will next time. Slime uses Fibro-Seal® Technology, which seems to be a mixture of fibers and rubber chunks. Attempts have been made to find sources for these synthetic fibers and rubber chunks, but it's a little involved, while Slime is cheap and universal. Slime also sells a bicycle specific "Slime Pro Tubeless Sealant", which already has latex and seems similar to WSS.


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## mces (Apr 12, 2011)

bsieb and TiGeo thank you.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Funny; I was really into this a few years ago (making home-brew..wait..that sounds like beer) but have fallen off the wagon over the last year b/c I ran out of latex and it was more convent to hit the LBS by my house and buy a bottle of Stan's in a pinch that day. Since then, just been using it @ $17/bottle. Will make some more home-brew this year once our stash of Stan's (and some from Trucker Co...haven't tried that one yet) runs out b/c I think it worked great and was certainly cheaper for the large group I ride with. Once you invest in the PG, DI water, and corn meal you have so much volume its really just the small jar of Mold Builder that you run out of. Stan's works wonderfully and lasts for me between 2-6 mos. depending on weather (less in summer, more in winter) and tire casing conditions (newer = more air tight = less evap = lasts longer vs. old/worn out = less air tight = more eval = dries out quicker). I currently replenish with a red Stan's scooper per tire (2 oz) for my mtb and CX/gravel bike.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Same here, I bough 1L of latex, 1.5L of PG, 500ml of ammonia, and 1L of Di water. And my latex is still around half.
I spent around 40€ total, and mixing around 1 part each, except for the ammonia, meaning I spent around 10€ per liter.
I cant see a reason to go back to brand sealants, except in a pinch, but knowing the Slime they sell in bike stores is the same they sell in car shops at half the price I can make the sacrifice.

And if people isn't having boogers with cornmeal, I will try it. I already have it, but was reluctant to add it.

A question, cooked or uncooked?
Any perceived difference?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

THis has been discussed...no idea where at this point. I use Kroger corn meal in the cardboard can thing. Cornmeal is what was mentioned in the Stan's patent application that was the genesis for this whole thing. It works. Some savy googling with "Tigeo" "mtbr" "best tubeless brew" "patent" will probably get you some good info...


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

I recall to have read something about cornmeal when I read trough all 150+ pages on this thread :eekster:.
I know this was beat to a pulp before but don't recall someone posting results on sealant longevity based on cooked vs uncooked, only performance if I'm not mistaken. I was hoping that someone knew something about it. But it's not that important to make me read all that again .

Thx.


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## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

XG doesn't make it "thicker". It has a pseudoplastic behaviour - reduce viscosity (thinning) the moment is experience shear (turbulence). Thus a mistaken perceived "thickness". When the sealant sloshes inside the tyre, it is "thinner", but much more important, it keeps the chunkulators in suspension. 

I use Eurotrash's OSS v3 (BAMFS), with both corn meal and fibres suspended with the XG. Fibres = dog hair or my own (6-8mm long). After 5 years of use I never had any boogers. Holes up to 6mm (1/4 ") sealed. Sealant lasts 4-6 months.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Richard Muller said:


> XG doesn't make it "thicker". It has a pseudoplastic behaviour - reduce viscosity (thinning) the moment is experience shear (turbulence). Thus a mistaken perceived "thickness". When the sealant sloshes inside the tyre, it is "thinner", but much more important, it keeps the chunkulators in suspension.


Interesting thoughts. Are you saying that is THICKER while just sloshing around but THINNER when it encounters the shear forces of quickly leaving the tire? I use XG to keep all the elements in suspension so that the chunkulators aren't always resting at the bottom of the tire. Probably helps with boogers since all the chunks aren't all resting together.



Richard Muller said:


> I use Eurotrash's OSS v3 (BAMFS), with both corn meal and fibres suspended with the XG. Fibres = dog hair or my own (6-8mm long). After 5 years of use I never had any boogers. Holes up to 6mm (1/4 ") sealed. Sealant lasts 4-6 months.


I got loads of boogers when I was using XG with rubber crumb and dog hair. When I switched to corn meal and dog hair I've not seen much in the way of boogers.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Stan's NoTubes and e*thirteen discuss glitter in tire sealant - Mtbr.com

Anyone read this? Thought it was kinda funny since we'd figured out long ago it wasn't the best source for a chunkulator...


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Yah, I read that.
And also saw the video with a guy adding purple glitters to the sealant to be able to seal a puncture that Stan's alone wasn't able to seal.

I'm yet to find the perfect chunkulator.
It must be inert, somewhat more or less buoyant, cheap and easy to source .
And absolutely must match my socks .


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## kmjelle (Nov 29, 2007)

Anyone have an ebay link to any kind of glitter that could work for this purpouse in my Joe's super sealant?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

big0mike said:


> Stan's NoTubes and e*thirteen discuss glitter in tire sealant - Mtbr.com
> 
> Anyone read this? Thought it was kinda funny since we'd figured out long ago it wasn't the best source for a chunkulator...


Yep...funny...I was like "That is so 5 years ago" (or whenever it was discussed here).


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## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

big0mike said:


> Interesting thoughts. Are you saying that is THICKER while just sloshing around but THINNER when it encounters the shear forces of quickly leaving the tire? I use XG to keep all the elements in suspension so that the chunkulators aren't always resting at the bottom of the tire. Probably helps with boogers since all the chunks aren't all resting together.
> 
> I got loads of boogers when I was using XG with rubber crumb and dog hair. When I switched to corn meal and dog hair I've not seen much in the way of boogers.


It is THICKER when it is just lying inside a stationary tyre, the moment it experience shear, either from escaping a hole or from sloshing inside a rotating tyre, it will get THINNER.

I agree with your observation on dog hair and cornmeal.


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## P.3 (Jul 15, 2007)

Kind of a random question, I was wondering what you guys are using to clean out dried up/failed sealants?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

A scrubby brush and hot water. Anymore I just add fresh. By the time it would build up enough to matter my tire is worn out.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Gunnar Westholm (Nov 2, 2005)

I usullay skrape and tear out as much as I can with my nails. And then roll it into a sausage shape and cut it up with sharp scissors to as small bits as I got patient to, and leave it in to seal larger holes. 
I have not noticed any punctures after I started doing that around 2 years ago so can't say how much it improves anything..

Skickat från min SM-G900F via Tapatalk


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

I had the same decision to make last week. Try to scrap the dry out sealant on the tire or leave it?
After 5min I decide to leave it, I tried, nail, hard scrub, and rub dry out sealant on dry out sealant .
Not worth the time, if your that worry about dry out sealant on the tire, change it before it dry out .


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## P.3 (Jul 15, 2007)

That's exactly what I have been thinking- Is it really worth the time?


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## Gunnar Westholm (Nov 2, 2005)

Cafelatex sealant and to stick less to the tire and but might also be stronger then others when dry so easier/faster to tear of. I've not tried to scrape and tear out the Stans and Notubes I've used. I'm convinced extra chunks helps so for me the few minutes extra to do it was worth it. 

Skickat från min SM-G900F via Tapatalk


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

That layer of smeg is part of what keeps your tire sealed. Leave it 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Gunnar Westholm (Nov 2, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> That layer of smeg is part of what keeps your tire sealed. Leave it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


When you put new sealant in, it will eventually form a new smeg layer as the sealant dries out. 
So I can't see what good an old (or new) layer of smedge could do??

Skickat från min SM-G900F via Tapatalk


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Gunnar Westholm said:


> When you put new sealant in, it will eventually form a new smeg layer as the sealant dries out.
> So I can't see what good an old (or new) layer of smedge could do??
> 
> Skickat från min SM-G900F via Tapatalk


If you inspect and top off the sealant regularly (monthly here in the SW) it won't dry out, and it won't get much of a buildup of solidified sealant spooge. I think the spooge layer is useless for sealing, because that latex is not liquid anymore.


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## Gunnar Westholm (Nov 2, 2005)

bsieb said:


> If you inspect and top off the sealant regularly (monthly here in the SW) it won't dry out, and it won't get much of a buildup of solidified sealant spooge. I think the spooge layer is useless for sealing, because that latex is not liquid anymore.


I prefer to not mess around with opening up and checking and reinflate more then once a year. 
I don't take more then a few minutes extra to remove a dried in layer. I always carry a smal bottle with extra sealant in my backpack that can be injected easily worth the valve core removed in case I get a punkture that won't seal due to dried up sealant in the tire.
But that's just how I choose to do it as long as it works good for me

Skickat från min SM-G900F via Tapatalk


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The stuff never comes out of my Specy S-Works tires easily....if it only took a few minutes I would do it. Must have to do with the texture of the surface. Again, I don't see where it hurts anything, doesn't really weight enough to worry about, and by the time I got that much build up, my tires would be worn out. When I top-off, its usually a moist layer of goo, not pure dried latex.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Liquid Latex 16oz - Party City Canada

I bought some of this today and mixed it with 1 part ATV Slime and 1 part RV antifreeze.

Poured some in and tire (Bontrager XR3 Team Issue ) sealed up just fine. I'll see how it is tomorrow.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Morning Update: Tire was still inflated with no noticeable drop in pressure.

Commute into work and no burping, will hit trails tonight for a proper test.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Evening update: tore the damn tire open tonight on a sharp rock, Sealant did the job and enabled me to ride slowly home with enough psi left in the tire (about 18).

Tear was about 1/4".


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## Balor (Jan 21, 2011)

Greetings!
I've been tired of sealant seeping through the sidewalls of my Continental tires, so I've tried 'thinned shoe goo' on a new set of tires before installing them. Sealant is 'stans' because I've been too lazy to find a source of latex.

Anyway, I've diluted about 5% shoe good in xylene, and painted the tires from inside, than attemped to get a seal.

Well, it ended up in something funny (actually, not):
It turned the tires into something like Gore-Tex: it does not let out water (and sealant), but it allows air to escape freely, so my tires do not hold air for more than a couple of hours.
Show goo prevents sealant from sticking to the tire and forming a protective layer of latex.
The fact that air escapes though the sidewalls is apparent if you water the sidewalls - the surface is all 'bubbly'.

What am I doing wrong? Or has it something to do with Stans formula change (I've been sourcing from Bike-Components. de, and latest couple of orders were rather different in composition).


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Shoe goo is permeable by air and tire sidewalls are likewise permeable by air. Sealant normally seals the millions of small holes in the sidewall. The shoe goo is preventing the sealant from doing its job. This is an interesting result.

Speaking of interesting stuff: I have been using nitrogen instead of air in my tires for over 6 months and so far, my sealant is still liquid. It is slightly thicker than when I put it in, but previously by 6 months my sealant had almost no liquid left. But the main thing is that there was virtually no skin on the inside of the tire. Before N2 I would always have a skin/film over the entire inside of the tire by 6 months.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Interesting, did you have to air up as often? 

Obviously no oxidization going on. 

CO2 has a solidifying effect on liquid latex it seems, maybe the N2 is displacing any atmospheric CO2? Just a thought, I have no idea how much CO2 is actually in the atmosphere but CO2 inflators cause boogers to happen, at least anecdotally.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Used to need to air up every 3rd day or so, now every week. (I air up when I lose 1.5 psi) This is not a solution for everyone because the equipment cost a few hundred but the good news is you can use it to keep a keg alive for a month since using it for pressure in a keg it is not reactive. N2 is chemically fairly innert as opposed to CO2. Easy to make a kegorator out of an oild fridge. Also, supposedly N2 does not oxidize the inside of the tire which air generally does over a period of several years. I also use it in my car tires and boat trailer tires. If you are going to do it get a regulator that can go up to 140 psi in case you want to air up road tires. Beer, car, MTB generally require 40 psi. Boat 50 psi so if you don't ride road or own a boat you could get the standard 40 psi regulators.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Another great reason to have a kegerator, hadn't thought of that. N2 is great for pressuring up suspension components too. I had been thinking of installing an air hose quick coupling in the CO2/N2 tank line, which would work well for attaching an inflation hose too.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I forgot to mention forks and shocks. another reason to get the high pressure regulator.
I have a 2000 psi tank I forget what size but it is about 4 feet tall. I went through most of a tank doing a minivan, pickup truck, car and winter tires for the pickup and van. Also a boat and boat spare and many bike tires including I use it to seat the bead on my MTB tires that are tubeless. That initially took a tank full and refills are only $18. It has bee 6 months and I still have over 1000 psi so once you get going it costs less than $18 per year to have N2 on everything.
Also, a word of caution. Airgas and people like them will not generally fill your tank and charge way too much if they do. They want to rent you a tank. They will say "can you prove it was not stolen?
' Make sure you have a local welding supply that will fill your tank at a reasonable price. Tank regulator, hose, and fittings are around $300.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## michael9218 (Dec 17, 2006)

Aglo said:


> Yah, I read that.
> And also saw the video with a guy adding purple glitters to the sealant to be able to seal a puncture that Stan's alone wasn't able to seal.
> 
> I'm yet to find the perfect chunkulator.
> ...


I saw someone in the comments section in the recent glitter video post that he uses coffee grounds. Since I grind my coffee beans each morning, I have an inexhaustible supply. I'm going to give it a try with my WSS brew.

I still get boogers. Maybe I should try adding ammonia?

2 parts PG
1 part Slime
1 part latex


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Try another part water and a half cup of ammonia, you might be a little thick. I use two parts water and 1 part PG, btw.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

michael9218 said:


> I saw someone in the comments section in the recent glitter video post that he uses coffee grounds.(...)


I read that too. But I'm reluctant to use it because I don't know the coffee's pH, and I don't know if the coffee grounds helps the formation of boogers.

I mixed one part each, except for the ammonia, which I only used 1/4 of ammonia at 25%.
And I think I have been adding to much PG, to test it I spilled a little to let it dry. After the latex turned solid I noticed some thick liquid residue, most probably PG.
I had noticed this too when mixing BAMFS v3.0, but totally forgot to reduce the quantity of PG when mixing the WSS .

I see people complaining about booger all the time, but I never had one, and I'm being honest, I also never have used any chunkulator, nor have added XG. And I always add some ammonia.

Little report on my experiment with the WSS, until now nor I nor my friend had any flat, nor any kind of sealant leakage, so at least it is doing the job properly.

But did notice that in a weeks time, the tire lose a couple of PSI, thing that did not happened with the BAMFS v3.0 with the exact same tires.
Could be the tire bead not properly seated, or not.

Side note: I'm sorry if my English isn't always clear, I try to keep my posts short, but some times I have to write more than three lines .


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Two week update:

Since fitting a new tire and airing it up I have had very minimal drop in pressure. Have been riding them pretty hard and also cased a simple curb hope on Monday night in which I felt the "clang" of the rim hitting the square concrete edge.

No burping or loss of pressure, thought I'd screwed something for sure but got through it unscathed.

So far so good with my modified sealant mix.


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

It's been 3yrs since I remember looking at this thread. Just came back to report the performance of the stans clone corn meal mix all the way back at this thread number here:
Best Tubeless Brew? - Page 104- Mtbr.com

It's the stans clone where some smart people on here looked up the MSDS sheet for stans and figured out cornmeal = stans crystals.

I live in TX and it's hot as ASDFASD here. I top off about every 3mo or I change tires in that time depending on race terrain etc. So needing a stans clone that last like 8mo is not important to me. In the 3.5yrs of running the stans clone I can remember at least it saving my ass 5x's and 1x it did not (side wall). Today's event was mind blowing. I got a large nail of all the things you could run over on a trail. The type of nails they use to build docks with (flooding here in TX brought it onto the trail). I ran it over and pulled over and my buddy behind me was like, "looks like you're putting a tube in" We pulled it out, and I started to ride immediately. Low and Behold that bizz sealed. I am taking a a large thick nail hole. We couldn't believe it. I am super happy with the stans clone.









BTW, I don't vary from that formula. I had tried using more this and that because in my head i thought thicker would be better. It was not. Just follow that formula and you should have good results. Mines thin, like milk.


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## thuren (Jul 29, 2009)

I whipped out my DH bike to go to Whistler, and had not popped open the tires in over a year. Said screw it, I'll just run the brew that was in the tire from last year, and see what it does. Still holds pressure fine, and I could hear some sloshing, so ran it. Never had a problem. My Enduro 29er also sits a lot, and that brew had been in there since late 2014! Never topped up on sealant once just wore the tires out.

Still running my version modified brew here(below link), and have not changed a thing, as I have no desire for something that works better or lasts longer.

I mix a gallon jug up and put in smaller containers, and this gallon jug usually last over a year.

http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-components/best-tubeless-brew-406115-107.html#post10831587


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

combfilter said:


> It's been 3yrs since I remember looking at this thread. Just came back to report the performance of the stans clone corn meal mix all the way back at this thread number here:
> Best Tubeless Brew? - Page 104- Mtbr.com
> 
> It's the stans clone where some smart people on here looked up the MSDS sheet for stans and figured out cornmeal = stans crystals.
> ...


Your'e welcome


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

So here's a curious update...

I've been using my build which is a slightly thicker version of the corn meal mix that was introduced many months back.

One ride I popped a spoke. Nipple broke off internally. Took it in and had it replaced. Two rides later, another spoke popped. Same way. Had my guy double check everything really well. He came back telling me almost ALL of my nipples have some degree of corrosion on them. Some looked like they were ready to give way, some just slightly.

I'd been using Gorilla tape but just within the last six months switched to a Stan's Strip.

Boggles my mind that A. that much sealant could get in there and, B. That it was corroding the metals. I thought this stuff wasn't supposed to be so caustic? Maybe I misread something.

Just had my hubs relaced to a pair of Flow MKIIIs and I don't want to damage these wheels for sure. Got the Stan's Tape and their valve and gonna put 'em together shortly.

Just curious if anyone had encountered this problem?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Short answer : yes.
The ammonia reacts with untreated aluminum, not anodized or not painted, and slowly corrode it.
You can find several threads here in the forum about it.
It take some time until the effects make themselves noticed, but if you leave untreated aluminum in direct contact with the ammonia, the corrosion don't take much to be noticed.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Aglo said:


> Short answer : yes.
> The ammonia reacts with untreated aluminum, not anodized or not painted, and slowly corrode it...


+
Or where a coating is worn. Like the contact between the nipple and its seat.

And if it's managing to wet the spoke-to-nipple threads, it could be aggravating dissimilar metals galvanic corrosion through enhanced electron transfer.

Photo of affected nipples?


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Another reason for brass nips.


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## deriesindi (Aug 3, 2016)

Mold builder you can get from art supply shops. It's straight up latex, with a funky smelling dilutent.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

deriesindi said:


> Mold builder you can get from art supply shops. It's straight up latex, with a funky smelling dilutent.


Yeah, that smell is ammonia.


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

Miker J said:


> Another reason for brass nips.


yep. if the tubeless sealant has ammonia in it (and they all have it or something very similar), it will be caustic and attack alluminum. Brass nipples are safe, but you could still get some corrosion of the rims. Use a litle grease on the back of the nipples when doing a wheel build so you don't gauge the rim.

And make sure the tape job is good. I'd make a bet that's what caused this issue. If the tape doesn't leak, you're not going to get the sealant inside the rim and on the nipples.


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## kidd (Apr 16, 2006)

I just got the takata recall notice. Sounds like it's a similar issue as the nipple corrosion


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Canoe said:


> Aglo said:
> 
> 
> > Short answer : yes.
> ...


Rims are already relaced. I'll have to check if they used brass nipples. My guy showed me a photo and it looked like the flat washer end was just sheared off by a very dull knife.



watts888 said:


> And make sure the tape job is good. I'd make a bet that's what caused this issue. If the tape doesn't leak, you're not going to get the sealant inside the rim and on the nipples.


The tape job was good but the problem was I retaped these wheels several times and wasn't careful at all about NOT getting sealant in the holes when pulling the tape. I also had one big failure on the trail and stuck a tube in without removing the excess sealant. It was all over the rims when finished with that ride. I wasn't very careful about cleaning it up because I'd never heard talk about corroded nipples.

I'll make sure this tape job is good...


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Salty environments, like seaside or places where they salt the snow can also induce corrosion, combine that with the ammonia and your aluminum nipples wont last long.

To prevent the risk of sealant reaching my nipples my new rims don't have internal nipple holes, like the UST rims, but with normal nipples .

You can also tape the rim wall to wall, I used to do this and had good results with it, none of my old nipples or rims had any sign of corrosion.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Some rims have small holes on the sides to let water out. I presume they also let water in. I wonder if they provide a net benefit in allowing the inside of the rim to vent and dry out.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Miker J said:


> Another reason for brass nips.


HAPPILY, I just confirmed that my new wheels have brass nipples.

Kinda boggles my mind that the Outlaws, which are probably one of the HEAVIEST wheels on the market, chose aluminum instead of the very slight weight gain of brass. I guess those extra 3 pennies off their profit margin really mattered...


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

But brass nips are usually cheaper. Probably trying to keep weight under a "100" number or competitor. 

Oh look, our wheels only weight 2350 grams. we're amazing. Wait, never mind. That's deore hub/rhyno lite weight.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Crap:

I mixed up mine pretty standard. Water, PG, Ammonia, Mold Builder. 

When I first mixed it up, it was a nice and wet, and created lots of little boogers without cornmeal. 

Now, I've got a very wet mostly solid block of latex "mozzarella". 

Is there any way of turning this "cheese block" back into running latex that will seal again?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

You are out of luck.
After the latex undergo polymerization it's not possible to revert it.
Time to get a new 1L bottle of latex.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

So, for the future, how do I keep that from happening? More ammonia? More PG? Less Water? Less Air?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

I don't know how to prevent it.
But as I never had a booger and I'm using either one or another of the mixes available in this thread, plus the fact that the temperature range in my country goes from sub zero (ºC/32ºF) in the winter and over 40ºC (105ºF) in summer, today was 42ºC (107.6ºF) in some areas, I can only assume the purity and quality of your ingredients take a major role in this.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

PHeller said:


> So, for the future, how do I keep that from happening? More ammonia? More PG? Less Water? Less Air?


The stored latex has a shelf life so it's best to mix it up soon after purchasing it. The best way I have found is to mix the whole batch at once (16 oz of latex makes 80 oz of WSS, for example). The mixed sealant will last more than one season in my experience, probably much longer, but it was used up by then.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

I didn't store it. I mixed it. PG and Ammonia from Tractor Supply, Latex from Michael's. Distilled water from the local market. 

I used a recipe from a guy here in Arizona to keep it liquid, which certainly worked for keeping it liquid, but it didn't work for keeping it the latex dissolved.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Did you mix it in the correct order?
Water+PG shake it and let it cool, add the ammonia, shake it, add the latex and shake it.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

I did exactly that.

Again, this is old mix from last summer. Maybe I wasn't shaking it often enough?

I mixed up a gallon glass (pickle) jar, and it seemed to work fine last summer/fall, but I really haven't been using it very fast.


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## GhostOfForumsPast (Feb 16, 2016)

Why is this a thing when there are proven commercial solutions (Stan's, Orange Seal, etc.) that work just fine for just a few pennies more?


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## Rumblefish29er (Oct 6, 2012)

Not sure. I tried the above, but with all of the $$ spent experimenting I could have bought a lot of stans. It seems like home brew works in a pinch but I'm not going through the trouble again. 


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Ghost- We're having fun, and it works better. 

It's over some people's heads...

You?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

It's easy to do the maths, I have spent 40€ (rounded up) buying 1L latex, 2L DI water, 1.5L PG, 250mm ammonia, with this I'm able to mix over 4L (135 Oz) of good working sealant, and I still have enough to do some failed experiments.
So, if you can beat over 4L of sealant for 40€, please do tell where I can buy it.
I know some people are having trouble, but others aren't.
And for those who are getting good results it really is a no brainer.


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## GhostOfForumsPast (Feb 16, 2016)

bsieb said:


> Ghost- We're having fun, and it works better.


Proof?

I've used Stan's and OS for years with great success.

It sure reads like tinkering for tinkering's sake. With much less reliable results (if the posts are to be believed).

p.s. If you define "having fun" as messing around with latex and mediocre flat prevention solutions then we have vastly different definitions of "having fun."


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## GhostOfForumsPast (Feb 16, 2016)

Aglo said:


> It's easy to do the maths, I have spent 40€ (rounded up) buying 1L latex, 2L DI water, 1.5L PG, 250mm ammonia, with this I'm able to mix over 4L (135 Oz) of good working sealant, and I still have enough to do some failed experiments.
> So, if you can beat over 4L of sealant for 40€, please do tell where I can buy it.
> I know some people are having trouble, but others aren't.
> And for those who are getting good results it really is a no brainer.


You're saving a few $ at most per tire (2oz per tire). Your argument is laughable especially when the opportunity cost of your time spent ordering, mixing and fussing with your home brew is considered.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Laughable are your arguments, you just came here and say it doesn't work, and when people who really use it say it works you belittled them.
The way I spent my time is my right, as it is your the right to come to this thread and write b******, don't you have nothing better to do, like mix your own sealant or ride your bicycle, or you also think riding your own bicycle is a waste of time?


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## GhostOfForumsPast (Feb 16, 2016)

Aglo said:


> or you also think riding your own bicycle is a waste of time?


In my world riding bikes ≠ mixing homebrew tubless.

One is fun and the other is laughable.

You seem to be taking my observations very hard. I would suggest that you take a few deep breaths and maybe get someone to hug you before you reply again.

p.s. I never wrote that it doesn't work. That's just you lying. You need help with your reading comprehension, among other things.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

My BAMFS (Stan's type) was 100% reliable and easy to make plus cheaper. Yes..some are having a bit of fun too!

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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

Actually "mediocre" isnt far from saying flat out it doesn't work.

And much of the home brew is making Stan's yourself for half the price. Then these guys for sale of curiosity and bettering sealant begin experiments to find ways that work better.

I've been using home brew for like 3 yrs now, had I not left my first jug in the garage over the winter I'd just now have to make more. The batch I'm on was made over a year ago. About $35 invested. My 29er, my son's bike and my fat bike. Even after screwing with ghetto tubeless routes and multiple tire changes, 2 things hold true:

Still have almost a half gallon

Only thing resembling a flat is burping my 29er front tire a couple different times for taking bad lines outside of my skills. Never once had a flat from thorns or anything since this. Never bothered with branded sealant, this route is cheaper and takes 5-10 minutes to mix up. 5-10 minutes to save a lot of money = more bike money. Not to mention it lasts longer in the tire and deals with having to use a shot of CO2 far better than Stan's does. BUT THIS IS FOR WHERE I RIDE. Which we get some nasty thorns late season (not 100% sure their goat heads being where I live but sure look like it) and plenty of spiky plants.

It's easy to say "only saves you a few bucks" like it's no big deal when you don't have a family and don't make 6 figures a year.

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## GhostOfForumsPast (Feb 16, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> 5-10 minutes to save a lot of money = more bike money.


Ok, so a few (emphasis on "few") extra dollars = more "bike money." The economic argument is perhaps the most laughable argument. See previous comments about opportunity cost. A bunch of time to save $5 is funny.



tigris99 said:


> It's easy to say "only saves you a few bucks" like it's no big deal when you don't have a family and don't make 6 figures a year.


What kind of homebrew crystal ball did you use to determine that I don't have a family and to determine my income?


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

First save a hell of a lot more than $5. Saved that per tire on my fat bike.

5-10 minutes of work (including time to order everything) vs multiple lbs trips (which then you add fuel or riding time expense) or ordering multiple bottles of Stan's. Big savings there.

Oh and 5-10 minutes once every couple of years.

Having a gallon jug at the ready anytime I need sealant and able to refill a single portable bottle as needed. Less waste and less trash.

So the time and money savings overall pays for a new chain or new tire or something that's needed or pays the fuel bill to go to trails further out to ride.

Your attitude towards money over a few minutes of time says a lot.

The guys here have done wonderous things in the "name of science" because it's something THEY ENJOY. PULL THE STICK OUT and go ride or something.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## GhostOfForumsPast (Feb 16, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> First save a hell of a lot more than $5. Saved that per tire on my fat bike.
> 
> 5-10 minutes of work (including time to order everything) vs multiple lbs trips (which then you add fuel or riding time expense) or ordering multiple bottles of Stan's. Big savings there.
> 
> ...


Way to dodge the question about your crazy assumptions! I guess you're keeping that secret homebrew crystal ball mix under wraps. If my "attitude towards money," which is based upon Happy Meal price differences, says a lot to you then you're beyond help.

Your assumptions about "multiple lbs trips" does offer further insight into your state of confusion though("Big savings there." Hah).

Free shipping, no problems with sketchy homebrews and more time to do something better than obsess about latex/water/PG/ammonia ratios to save a minuscule amount of money.

p.s. Sweet edit "PULL THE STICK OUT and go ride or something." The ole, "you're making me look like a fool and upsetting me so you need to go ride" fallacy. Thanks for your misplaced concern but I already rode today. Now I'm sitting back and being entertain by you flopping around.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^I agree that it is much easier to just pick up some Stan's (or whatever you like) at your LBS or if the trip is an issue, just Amazon it. I went back to Stan's a last year b/c I ran out of latex and was in a pinch for sealant - it was just easier to run by the LBS. A bottle of Stan's costs ~$15 (the smaller one) and will last me a year with my 2 bikes that I have set up tubeless. My issue is that I have a group of us that I maintain the bikes for and the home-brew is more economical for the ~6 or so of us that need sealant topped off every few months. I can mix a batch of my brew quickly (if I have all the stuff/am prepared) and it works as good for us as Stan's (as far as we can tell....it should...its basically Stan's). Its fun to mess around and I enjoyed researching the various brews and finding the info from the original Stan's patent and providing it here along with my results. To each their own. I think I invested ~$25 in the PG/DI/ammonia/corn meal a long time ago and I still have plenty of each. Before that, I had purchased some Slime and RV anti-freeze for my first WSS I made (which works fine as well) at Walmart for less than $20. The reoccuring cost is really in the latex @ ~$12/tub from Hobby Lobby (with the %40 coupon). Right now we are in a Stan's mode b/c everyone has bought a bottle (even some Trucker Co sealant) and we are working through hit. When we use what sealant we have, I will spend a whopping ~$14 on some more latex and we will have enough sealant for another year...for 6 people (factoring in that I have enough PG, ammonia, cornmeal, and distilled water to last forever). The mix time is about 10 minutes in my garage. Buy your Stan's and ride, I get it, but also understand why some folks are into #homebrewsealant4lyfe.


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## tigris99 (Aug 26, 2012)

GhostOfForumsPast said:


> Way to dodge the question about your crazy assumptions! I guess you're keeping that secret homebrew crystal ball mix under wraps. If my "attitude towards money," which is based upon Happy Meal price differences, says a lot to you then you're beyond help.
> 
> Your assumptions about "multiple lbs trips" does offer further insight into your state of confusion though("Big savings there." Hah).
> 
> ...


Dodge what question??? You got serious issues.

Funny thing is 1qt of Stan's, almost $25. Do the math, almost $100 for a gallon

1 gallon of home brew (works just the same) less than $50

If 10 minutes of your time isn't worth even $10 savings, then that answers why you have the attitude you do.

Oh and wait. Forgot this part. You sit here and loose your mind over people using a little of their time to save some money, YET YOUR SITTING HERE ON A COMPUTER TALKING SMACK and degrading the people here for doing the work. Really????

Anyway back to topic, no time for uneducated.

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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

The riders at our clubhouse consider stans to be an inferior alternative, they grumble if it's all there is left. I mix a batch or two of WSS a year, and make it a point to amazon prime in a fresh 16 oz jar from a large casting industry supplier for each batch. I discarded :eekster: many jars of unusable latex in the past but this is working well. I use the WSS formula because it has proven to be a very robust puncture sealant with good tubeless performance life in tires with suitably impervious sidewalls. 

Pouring minty green super sealant from a big plastic jug right into your tire until the size of the puddle suits you is the way we roll on our mountain. 

Mr Ghost, on the other hand, is an outstanding consumer. :thumbsup:


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

bsieb said:


> Mr Ghost, on the other hand, is an outstanding consumer. :thumbsup:


And classic Internet Troll sucking many into fighting him, when the Ignore List is a much better choice.


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## GhostOfForumsPast (Feb 16, 2016)

tigris99 said:


> Dodge what question???


Again, how did you determine that I don't have a family/my income ?



tigris99 said:


> You got serious issues.
> 
> Funny thing is 1qt of Stan's, almost $25. Do the math, almost $100 for a gallon
> 
> ...


I'm just sitting back and laughing at folks like you who get so wound up when your latex "homebrewing" "hobby" is questioned. Not "loosing" my mind, not shouting in all caps. Just chuckling at you.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Think of all the time you might have had if you hadn't entered this conversation? You're wasting time man...time is money...money better spent on Stans. 

For those of us who enjoy wasting our time and money, we'll continue doing so with our ridiculous homebrew sealant.


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## GhostOfForumsPast (Feb 16, 2016)

PHeller said:


> Think of all the time you might have had if you hadn't entered this conversation? /QUOTE]
> 
> Just a few minutes. But those minutes have been full of laughter so everything is ok.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Nice! Glad 75 pages of ridiculousness can amuse you. That's what we're here for!

For my own reference, and anybody else who is now watching this thread because it has been pushed to the top:

Wss is Wadesters Secret Sauce, and is still one of the best and easiest. Here's what I did (and I should've used more PG):

Mix, in this order, shaking well between ingredients:

32 (or 40) oz Water

16 oz PG, EG, RV, antifreeze. $22

16 oz any type of Slime - Didn't use this, but you can get a gallon at Tractor Supply for $22.

8 oz clear ammonia, or whatever kind you can find. $4 - Optional

16 oz liquid latex mold builder $18-%40=$10

This yields an ~88 oz batch of WSS tubeless sealant.

BAMFS 2.0 is as follows:
Latex: 1 part (Mold Builder @ Hobby Lobby or similar)
Propylene glycol: 2 parts (Tractor Supply)
Distilled water: 2 parts
Ammonia: 0.3 parts (Again, optional)
Cornmeal: A scoop, how much ever that is.

There are some people who say you really only need Latex, PG/Water-RV Antifreeze, cornmeal. There are some people who have had success with just watering down Latex and adding cornmeal.

In either case, once you've bought the liquids, especially in gallon form, you can make the mix 3-4 times. If you've only got a single bike you plan on running tubeless, DIY sealant is stupid. If you've got a ton of bikes, all tubeless, or you're splitting some of these costs with friends, then it makes sense.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^nice.

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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Wise people, please help me to understand the difference between "Centrifuged Latex" and "Creamed Latex"

Which one do we need for home brew?


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Neogen said:


> Wise people, please help me to understand the difference between "Centrifuged Latex" and "Creamed Latex"
> 
> Which one do we need for home brew?


Buy the Castin' Craft Mold Builder and don't worry about it.

It's just a difference in separation/concentration method.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Yep...Mold Builder....it works.


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

meltingfeather said:


> Buy the Castin' Craft Mold Builder and don't worry about it.
> 
> It's just a difference in separation/concentration method.


I dont have the option to buy it as Mold builder.. I am getting Centrifuged latex and/or Creamed latex.

Centrifuged latex has following properties:









*Creamed Latex *- The processing of latex into creamed concentrates involves the mixing of a creaming agent such as ammonium alginate or cooked tamarind seed powder with properly preserved field latex and allowing the latex to separate into two layers, an upper layer of concentrated latex and lower layer of serum containing very little rubber. The lower layer is removed, leaving the latex concentrate of 50%-55% drc which is tested, packed and marketed.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Your Centrifuged latex Type LA looks a lot like the liquid latex I use in my mixes.
I have a bottle that I opened last year and is still liquid.
So I would get your Centrifuged Type LA Latex.


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## meltingfeather (May 3, 2007)

Neogen said:


> I dont have the option to buy it as Mold builder.. I am getting Centrifuged latex and/or Creamed latex.
> 
> Centrifuged latex has following properties:
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

ll


PHeller said:


> Nice! Glad 75 pages of ridiculousness can amuse you. That's what we're here for!
> 
> For my own reference, and anybody else who is now watching this thread because it has been pushed to the top:
> 
> ...


Hold on...

So why the Slime? Isn't that just water and PG maybe with some chunks?

Personally I use Slime as I got a gallon real cheap at Wally World and found I can then back off of the relatively expensive/hard to find (for me) PG.

If you can get PG easily and cheaply, why use the Slime?

Am I missing something?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Miker J said:


> ll
> 
> Hold on...
> 
> ...


Slime, a stand alone tubeless tire puncture sealant, has fibers and chunks that are particularly effective and don't tend to goober up much. For SOME of us it's about performance as much as cost. Obviously you are free to mix it using any ingredients you wish. I'm sure water, pg, and latex would work just fine too, not sure chunks are really required. Slime and latex, thinned a bit with water, will work well too. The extra pg content probably adds some life as it evaporates slower than water.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

bsieb said:


> Slime, a stand alone tubeless tire puncture sealant, has fibers and chunks that are particularly effective and don't tend to goober up much. For SOME of us it's about performance as much as cost. Obviously you are free to mix it using any ingredients you wish. I'm sure water, pg, and latex would work just fine too, not sure chunks are really required. Slime and latex, thinned a bit with water, will work well too. The extra pg content probably adds some life as it evaporates slower than water.


Let me phrase this another way...

What's in Slime?

Aside from some chunks.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Miker J said:


> Let me phrase this another way...
> 
> What's in Slime?
> 
> Aside from some chunks.


Here is the Slime MSDS.
http://www.co.vermilion.il.us/MSDS/EMA/75-Slime_super_duty_tire_sealant.pdf


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Aglo said:


> Your Centrifuged latex Type LA looks a lot like the liquid latex I use in my mixes.
> I have a bottle that I opened last year and is still liquid.
> So I would get your Centrifuged Type LA Latex.


Thanks.. really helpful


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Neogen said:


> Thanks.. really helpful


You are welcome.

*Meltingfeather *and *TiGeo* are right, it really doesn't matter.
The only difference between them is the % of latex, and more or less non-rubber solid content, and a difference of 10% at most in latex isn't significant.

When I made my option I got the one with the most amount of dry latex, if I'm not mistaken it also had the LA designation in the type, and it really resembles yours LA, I'm guessing it's a industry standard designation.

I had best of luck mixing BAMFS v3.0, but doubling the latex and rising the ammonia to 0.4~0.5parts.
Currently I'm running WSS, and it works ok, but BAMFS v3.0 for me works better, it's measurably faster sealing the punctures.
Your results may vary ...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I'm so happy that BAMFS has made other happy


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

My wallet is also very happy.
And that name... just the name give at least 30% performance boost  .


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Aglo said:


> You are welcome.
> 
> *Meltingfeather *and *TiGeo* are right, it really doesn't matter.
> The only difference between them is the % of latex, and more or less non-rubber solid content, and a difference of 10% at most in latex isn't significant.
> ...


Thank you once again.

I ended up getting industrial grade HA variety Centrifuged Liquid Latex. This already has plenty of ammonia. I plan to follow BAMFS and what you did, just few changes. Here is my plan:

Latex - 1 Part
Glycerine - 1 Part
Tackifier (like cornmeal).. this is where I am struggling for ideas. what to use.

One more question. How much Tackifier should I mix in say 100ml of latex?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Neogen said:


> (...)
> I ended up getting industrial grade HA(...)




I never used a tackifier, so can't help you there. But I think people normally use a tablespoon for each part of latex, if I'm not mistaken.


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Aglo said:


> I never used a tackifier, so can't help you there. But I think people normally use a tablespoon for each part of latex, if I'm not mistaken.


Finally, I used rice powder..


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

slocaus said:


> Here is the Slime MSDS.
> http://www.co.vermilion.il.us/MSDS/EMA/75-Slime_super_duty_tire_sealant.pdf


Thanks, but that does not list any ingredients.

Just found out Slime is said to be...

about 50% PG.

About 40% water.

About 5% Carboxylated styrene-butadiene polymer

Also comes with chunks.

As I can get Slime easily and cheaply, I've just been adding some latex and ammonia, then water to thin as needed. Been using this for years with good results.

Cornstarch is something added in when available. Even if at a later time.

I do see that I can likely get PG for $20/gal at Tractor Supply. So, I guess that makes it cheaper than the Slime blend.

My guess is most of you've figured this out already.


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## SurferTom (Sep 8, 2016)

Ok, so I've seen mention of a BAMFS 3.0 but after looking into many pages I don't see a formulation.. I thought I saw them say they doubled the latex and more Ammonia...

Is there a formulation for BAMFS 3.0 or are people just building off your BAMFS 2.0?
Thanks,
I have found this interesting reading even if some think we are wasting our time..
:thumbsup:


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## SurferTom (Sep 8, 2016)

Qwe


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

SurferTom said:


> Ok, so I've seen mention of a BAMFS 3.0 but after looking into many pages I don't see a formulation.. I thought I saw them say they doubled the latex and more Ammonia...
> 
> Is there a formulation for BAMFS 3.0 or are people just building off your BAMFS 2.0?
> Thanks,
> I have found this interesting reading even if some think we are wasting our time..


Good to know that you are enjoying this thread. Even I enjoyed and still enjoy 

People are building several versions as per their requirement. Some of the prominent recipes are (this list is courtesy @Aglo)

*WSS V3 as per Wadester:*

1 PG
2 distilled water
1/2 clear ammonia
1 slime
1 latex
1/2 additional chunkulations

*OSS v1.0f:*

16 oz PG
26 oz RO water
4 oz ammonia
32 oz latex
1/2 additional chunkulations

*BAMFS v3.0 (Stan's clone + ammonia + XG.)*

PG/GL : 2 parts - 200ml
DI water : 2 parts - 200ml
Latex : 1 part - 100ml
Ammonia : 0.3 parts - 30ml
Cornmeal : 1 tbs
XG : 1 pinch

*Aglo's BAMFS v3.1B*

PG : 2 parts - 200ml
DI water : 2 parts - 200ml
Latex : 2 parts - 200ml
Ammonia : 0.5 parts - 50ml
*
My variation: NVI-3 *(for hot and dusty climate)
Latex (with Ammonia mixed) : 2 parts - 200 ml
Glycerin : 2 parts - 200 ml
DI water : 1 part - 100 ml
Rice powder : 1 tbs

So far my NVI-3 has been doing great.

You have to figure out what's best for you.:thumbsup:


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^Very nice. I landed on my BAMFS v.2.0 as my go-to in the end b/c I don't think the XG does a dang thing.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

TiGeo said:


> ^^^Very nice. I landed on my BAMFS v.2.0 as my go-to in the end b/c I don't think the XG does a dang thing.


I also think your BAMFS V2.0 is better, my variation of your BASFM V3.0, is really close to your BASFM v2.0, I just like to add more Latex and currently reducing the quantity of PG. Think next I will try 1part PG for 2part Latex and water.
On today ride my friend was using a mix with 1.5part PG and 2part everything else and it worked really well, after ride we removed several 1-2mm thorns from the tire and the moment the sealant reached the puncture they were sealed within 3 seconds.

You should have named your BASFM with something more personal, like BASFMbTG .


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

just call it alphabet soup at that point, lol

i've been following htis thread fro quite some time and i finally decided to convert to ghetto tubeless. however, i have not tried any formula due to the fact i'm only running this on 1 of 2 bikes. i ended up opting for orange seal and so far quite happy. thx to all for experimenting ang posting formulas. big piss off to the haters too


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Aglo said:


> Think next I will try 1part PG for 2part Latex and water.


Does the latex you are using has ammonia ?

Have you tried reducing the quantity of water?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Neogen said:


> Does the latex you are using has ammonia ?
> 
> Have you tried reducing the quantity of water?


Yes, it has. If I recall correctly it has 0.3% minimum.

Yes and no.
Yes, but because I double the latex part I'm using.
And no, because never thought on lowering just the water. But more than once I was tempted to run latex only and raise the ammonia to 0.6%. Think I never did it because I was concerned with the longevity, but I'm sure it would work awesomely .
Also it would rise the price per liter, what would defeat the idea of doing our own mix. Im my case running just latex plus ammonia would be around 14€ per liter, still cheaper than Stan's .


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Aglo said:


> Yes, it has. If I recall correctly it has 0.3% minimum.
> 
> Yes and no.
> Yes, but because I double the latex part I'm using.
> ...


Hmmm..

I am using latex with ~ 0.6-8% ammonia and is working perfect. I am using higher ratio of latex in my brew. For me this suits, as a liter of latex costs me about $2.


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## ETChipotle (Sep 20, 2014)

Anybody know if the Keto-Aid PG at Fleet Farm is a good substitute for the Tractor Supply PG? I looked at the label but did not see any % concentration, just the active ingredient was listed. I think the daily dose per head is the same. I can get to a Tractor Supply, it's just a longer drive.

Also, any required tweaks to the recipes for winter riding down to -10 F?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

If it's labeled as PG I don't think it really matters where you get it, they are bound to be similar, so don't worry.
I got mine at a local pharmacy, so if you want try to check there to.
The PG should help in keeping everything more or less liquid, however I don't know how the latex will behave at those temperatures.
And what the hell are you doing out there with those temperatures, are you trying to turn yourself into a human flavor popsicle 😲😨


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

ETChipotle said:


> Also, any required tweaks to the recipes for winter riding down to -10 F?


I'm sure you can up the pg ratio without much problem.

Looking forward to a report when you find out.


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## bikeCOLORADO (Sep 4, 2003)

Keith Bontrager's own home brew Tubeless Tire Sealant!

2 Cups Water
1 Cup Ethylene Glycol
1 Cup Latex
2-3 Tbs Cornmeal or Static Grass (static display grass)

Skip to 1:10 in the video.


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Can we use "Micronized Rubber Powder" or rubber crumbs of 80 mesh instead of cornmeal /static grass..

See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronized_rubber_powder


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

bikeCOLORADO said:


> Keith Bontrager's own home brew Tubeless Tire Sealant!
> 
> 2 Cups Water
> 1 Cup Ethylene Glycol
> ...


Nice catch  .

So that is just another variation of the formula we been using. He also said he use either ethylene glycol or propylene glycol, so for those who have trouble find PG they can try ethylene glycol.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

Aglo said:


> Nice catch  .
> 
> So that is just another variation of the formula we been using. He also said he use either ethylene glycol or propylene glycol, so for those who have trouble find PG they can try ethylene glycol.


Just remember that EG is toxic, so if you have kids or pets playing mechanic helper, then the extra trouble to get PG is well worth it.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Neogen said:


> Can we use "Micronized Rubber Powder" or rubber crumbs of 80 mesh instead of cornmeal /static grass..
> 
> See here:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronized_rubber_powder


You can, but it's not a very good idea.

People have tested it and reported that it increase the boogers .
The surface on the rubber crumbs is very active and acts as a catalyst to start the polymerization of the latex.

I was tempted to use it in the past but gave up on the idea because of a white paper I read concerning the reactivity of rubber crumbs/powder.
The paper also mentioned how to "neutralize" the rubber crumbs by "re-vulcanizing" it. You can easily buy sulfur and the vulcanizing process is easy to do, but it is to much hassle, and I'm actually pretty happy with my results without any kind of chunkalator.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

bsieb said:


> Slime, a stand alone tubeless tire puncture sealant, has fibers and chunks that are particularly effective and don't tend to goober up much. For SOME of us it's about performance as much as cost. Obviously you are free to mix it using any ingredients you wish. I'm sure water, pg, and latex would work just fine too, not sure chunks are really required. Slime and latex, thinned a bit with water, will work well too. The extra pg content probably adds some life as it evaporates slower than water.


I use auto-slime, little chunks of stuff, fibers, etc. Works great (with the rest of my mix).


----------



## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Aglo said:


> You can, but it's not a very good idea. People have tested it and reported that it increase the boogers . The surface on the rubber crumbs is very active and acts as a catalyst to start the polymerization of the latex.


That was my experience with three different batches with and without xantham gum. Someone else used rubber crumb without XG and didn't report the same increase in boogers, though...


----------



## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

big0mike said:


> That was my experience with three different batches with and without xantham gum. Someone else used rubber crumb without XG and didn't report the same increase in boogers, though...


How much rubber powder they used? and was it 80~100 mesh variety crumbs


----------



## Thelma Viaduct (Sep 16, 2013)

I can obtain ptfe in liquid/latex or granular form, would this material be of any use as a tubeless sealant?


----------



## KonaSS (Sep 29, 2004)

May be a slight thread drift, and totally respect the work you all do to make your own. But if you are in a pinch, OR - like me, just don't have the time or number of bikes to get into DIY, what is the groups thought on the BEST OFF THE SHELF sealant?


----------



## bikeCOLORADO (Sep 4, 2003)

Orange Seal

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Slime Pro is very close to WSS I believe, basically Slime with latex. They advertise it as being CO2 compatible.


----------



## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

PTFE - polytetraflouraethylene - or teflon - is known for it's inertness and it's slipperyness. 

Inert would be a good thing in sealant, but slippery would not. The point is to stick in a hole and stay put. Just my $.02 Try it and report back, I could be wrong.

The problem with CO2 is that it combines with water to form carbonic acid. The pH of latex needs to be on the basic side (reason for ammonia) to keep the latex liquid. Adding acid would shift the pH towards latex going solid.


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Aglo said:


> You can, but it's not a very good idea.
> 
> People have tested it and reported that it increase the boogers .
> The surface on the rubber crumbs is very active and acts as a catalyst to start the polymerization of the latex.
> ...


And, you are absolutely right.

I modified my NVI-3 formula and made NVI-3 with rubber crumbs of ~80 mesh. It was nearly a disaster, the crumbs soaked all the glycerin/latex and formed a spongy type booger.. leaving water. It was like a split milk type of situation.

I am back to the original formula of NVI-3, just added glitter to it. Its working great as of now


----------



## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Thank for the report.

I had my suspensions, but nothing beats real results .
If we found a way of know what polymer slime is using. My knowledge on polymers is basic at best, so I can't be of much help.


----------



## ETChipotle (Sep 20, 2014)

Okay so I just mixed up according to the recipe on post #2580.

My Nates haven't been ridden since spring and haven't had anything added since December of last year so they're dry. Do I crack the bead (which scares me) and pour in there, or do I try to squirt it through the valve (which scares me even more but is probably easier) and maybe chase it with an extra squirt of PG?

I did this using the PG from Fleet Farm because its 2 miles away. The castin' craft stuff from Michaels did pour but very slowly I'm hoping that's okay but in the future I'll get it through amazon

http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-components/best-tubeless-brew-406115-52.html#post10794532

I just noticed thuren (thanks!) said 2 1/2 scoops that are 2 oz, not just 2 oz.


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

I feel it would be better to squirt it through the valve ...


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Don't be afraid of cracking the bead, it will go back with a floor pump easily. I find it works well to look at the inside of the tire periodically, and top off the puddle if necessary. You don't wait until you run out of air to add more, why sealant?


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Aglo said:


> Thank for the report.
> 
> I had my suspensions, but nothing beats real results .
> If we found a way of know what polymer slime is using. My knowledge on polymers is basic at best, so I can't be of much help.


That would be interesting, if we could figure out what polymers Slime has.

As mentioned earlier, I have great success with rice powder...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_flour


----------



## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

bsieb said:


> Don't be afraid of cracking the bead, it will go back with a floor pump easily. I find it works well to look at the inside of the tire periodically, and top off the puddle if necessary. You don't wait until you run out of air to add more, why sealant?


Agree 100%...I like to look in there every few months and top off. I know I have some tires that will not re-seat without a compressor even for just cracking the bead so I can understand the trepidation some folks have and the removable valve-core/injector work great. A compressor (with presta head) is a great add-on for your garage if you are an avid tubeless aficionado and just makes life so much easier.


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## ETChipotle (Sep 20, 2014)

I never get flats anyway, jinx


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## FMCurto (Oct 18, 2011)

Neogen said:


> That would be interesting, if we could figure out what polymers Slime has.
> 
> As mentioned earlier, I have great success with rice powder...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_flour


LOL, that triggered some nasty memories...

If rice-powder is effective to reduce diarrhea I guess it should do a decent job plugging tyre holes as well.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Neogen said:


> That would be interesting, if we could figure out what polymers Slime has.
> 
> As mentioned earlier, I have great success with rice powder...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_flour


What kind of success, ie doesn't booger, seals big holes, etc?


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

bsieb said:


> What kind of success, ie doesn't booger, seals big holes, etc?


Yeah no booger, lumps or such.. see the images. This was after a month of usage.. there was sealant, but no boogers or lump..




















Regarding max size of puncture, I am not sure. It is sealing thorns etc very effectively. Though, I tried a small experiment.. see the images


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## philreske8614 (Apr 25, 2016)

So i've been home brewing for about 2 years now and excess sealant ate building up in my tires. I also swap tires a lot and don't always have access to a hose to spray out. 

Whats the best way to remove?

Is there a liquid that will break down the latex and keep the tire safe ?


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Just leave it there, it doesn't weigh much. Or pick it out if that resonates. Alternatively, ride more, wear your tires out faster.


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## philreske8614 (Apr 25, 2016)

bsieb said:


> ^Just leave it there, it doesn't weigh much. Or pick it out if that resonates. Alternatively, ride more, wear your tires out faster.


There is a lot in there and the weight is bugging me. Especially on the furthest point of the tire from axles. 
Have you ever gone from an 800g to 600g tire ? 
You'll understand if you have.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

philreske8614 said:


> There is a lot in there and the weight is bugging me. Especially on the furthest point of the tire from axles.
> Have you ever gone from an 800g to 600g tire ?
> You'll understand if you have.


Yes, 200 gm would be lot of buildup, but that much buildup seems like it would just pull out. No liquid I know of will dissolve dry latex rubber. Run less sealant, weight goes down. I run 1 oz. in my TR 29er tires, saves 40 gm. Are you racing or obsessing?


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## philreske8614 (Apr 25, 2016)

bsieb said:


> Yes, 200 gm would be lot of buildup, but that much buildup seems like it would just pull out. No liquid I know of will dissolve dry latex rubber. Run less sealant, weight goes down. I run 1 oz. in my TR 29er tires, saves 40 gm. Are you racing or obsessing?


Both.

It's prolly more like 100g but will increase as it dries and more is added.

I was thinking how latex condoms get broken down with certain lubricants. But would these affect the tires rubber ? 
Anyone here know chemistry?

Once i got brew all over my arm, water just dried it but when i added soap it released from my arm hair. Maybe theres some chance soapy water works.


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

philreske8614 said:


> Both.
> 
> It's prolly more like 100g but will increase as it dries and more is added.
> 
> ...


Ammonia, try that..


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

philreske8614 said:


> There is a lot in there and the weight is bugging me. Especially on the furthest point of the tire from axles.
> Have you ever gone from an 800g to 600g tire ?
> You'll understand if you have.


First off, look up dynamic tire balancing media - 




The sealant works to balance your tire, and will deposit itself as a balanced configuration. So no big there.

When I'm redoing a tire, I just rinse it out good then go over the tire with a scrubby pad. This gets out most everything of real size, but you can still pick/peal a bit more. If you do this in a sink with a strainer you can gather all the cured sealant and weigh it if you want to see what the true weight is.

Just as a thought exercise, the basic recipe is maybe 25% solids? The rest being liquids that move about and/or evaporate but do not congeal and stay put. So 1 oz sealant (28g) becomes maybe 7g of solids.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I always figured the weight loss from wearing away the tire is about equal to the weight gain from sealant latex build up.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I weigh my bikes all the time...its negligible. You probably wear the tire out before you get enough build up to add sig. weight. Every so often I pop the tires off and just wash out what is there and try to scrub out the dried smeg.


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## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

This reminds me of two brothers that owned a bicycle shop in the early 1900's. People thought they were crazy, to waste money trying doing experiments on bikes on order to get off the ground. They seemed to like it...


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Ok, after some google fu I think I found what slime use as chunklator.

I think that in the past they used vulcanized rubber chunks, I came to this conclusion because of the hazardous decomposition products listed on some of the Safety Data Sheets, they were the following:

Carbon Monoxide and Carbon Dioxide
Nitrogen Oxides
Sulfur Oxides(SOx)
Irritant gases/vapors

This is usually what vulcanized burning rubber release.

But I think they recently changed to Low-density polyethylene (LDPE) and Linear low-density polyethylene (LLDPE).
They can easily be found on ebay as clear or black pellets, LDPE is cheaper.
Both LLDPE and LDPE have a slightly higher density than the "liquid" part of Slime.


I wont be making a mix for the for the next months, so if anyone want to test it in some of the homebrews don't forget to report.


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## watts888 (Oct 2, 2012)

Richard Muller said:


> People thought they were crazy, to waste money trying doing experiments on bikes on order to get off the ground.


But those guys flew. Everybody here just burps periodically....


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Aglo said:


> I think that in the past they used vulcanized rubber chunks, I came to this conclusion because of the hazardous decomposition products listed on some of the Safety Data Sheets, they were the following:
> 
> Carbon Monoxide and Carbon Dioxide
> Nitrogen Oxides
> ...


If anyone finds a suitable product let everyone know. I did some quick searching and found some enormously large pellets and bottles of LDPE of unknown size...


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Aglo said:


> Ok, after some google fu I think I found what slime use as chunklator.
> 
> I think that in the past they used vulcanized rubber chunks, I came to this conclusion because of the hazardous decomposition products listed on some of the Safety Data Sheets, they were the following:
> 
> ...


This seems promising:

Powder Coating, Plastic Coating, Polyester Coating, Thermoset Powder, Electrostatic Powder Coating

A semi-crystalline (typically around 50%), whitish, semi-opaque commodity thermoplastic that is soft, flexible and tough - even at low temperatures - with outstanding electrical properties but poor temperature resistance. It also has very good chemical resistance but is prone to environmental stress cracking; it has poor UV resistance (unless modified) and poor barrier properties, except to water.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

big0mike said:


> If anyone finds a suitable product let everyone know. I did some quick searching and found some enormously large pellets and bottles of LDPE of unknown size...


The majority of the ones I saw had around 5mm, I think.
I was thinking on grinding them, resulting in different particles diameter.



Neogen said:


> This seems promising:
> 
> Powder Coating, Plastic Coating, Polyester Coating, Thermoset Powder, Electrostatic Powder Coating
> 
> (...)


Do you know the price?


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Aglo said:


> Do you know the price?


It seems, around $3 per KG

Rapid XCEL 1630 of New Products from China Suppliers - 124079543


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## dberndt (Apr 17, 2010)

Any thoughts on using glycol-p as a propylene glycol substitute? 
Glycol-P

Per ML
Propylene Glycol 0.667 mL
Choline Chloride 20.00 mg
Potassium Iodide 1.76 mg
Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide 0.44 mg
Cobalt Sulfate 1.00 mg

Are any of these additives worth worrying about? I see Choline Cloride, sounds kind of chrlorine like, and we'll be adding ammonia in the latex or just straight up. Any issue there? Sorry, my chemistry skills are definitely sub-par.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Do any of the sciency geeks know anything about polyurethane? The company I work for does injection molding and casting using polyurethane among other things. Might have an abundant supply of chunkulators here. Not sure of how big or dense the pellets are when they start out even though we make things as hard as a rock and soft like a shock boot.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

I've read, scanned, and skipped through this very helpful (but unmanageably large) thread. Forgive me if this has been covered, but....

I made the basic recipe:
1 part latex (mold builder)
1 part Slime tire sealant
1 part EG antifreeze (undiluted)
2 parts DI water

It mixed up great, is fluid, no clumps, and looks right. However when I put a few drops on a surface next to my Orange Sealant the orange product will dry/harden while my mixture simply gets thicker. 24 hours later my mix is still wet to the touch. 

Is this supposed to work this way? Short of putting a hole in my tire I'm not sure how to make sure the stuff I made actually works.


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Doug said:


> I've read, scanned, and skipped through this very helpful (but unmanageably large) thread. Forgive me if this has been covered, but....
> 
> I made the basic recipe:
> 1 part latex (mold builder)
> ...


I feel quantity of latex in the mix is very low. Its just around 16% of the total mix. Look at some of the prominent recipes:

http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-components/best-tubeless-brew-406115-79.html#post12823044

Also, do a small test, just put a few drops of latex in open and see how much times it takes to convert into solid.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Also, by adding Slime, you don't need to add Antifreeze.
Slime already have up to 50% in PG, or Glycerol, or something else that it's cheaper at the moment.
That "wetness" that you referred to, is most likely caused by the excess of adding the two.
I did some tests, and in some of the results, even after the latex was dry, there was still a viscous residue covering it, and the latex didn't had the same elasticity, nor the same adhesive capacity that the others results with less PG or Slime in the mix.


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## cadoretteboat (Aug 27, 2011)

Doug said:


> I've read, scanned, and skipped through this very helpful (but unmanageably large) thread. Forgive me if this has been covered, but....
> 
> I made the basic recipe:
> 1 part latex (mold builder)
> ...


You can add amoniac (windex) around 50ml, for 1liter of your mix (i use basically the same plus glitter). It will slow down the curring process by a lot.


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

cadoretteboat said:


> You can add amoniac (windex) around 50ml, for 1liter of your mix (i use basically the same plus glitter). It will slow down the curring process by a lot.


But why slow down the process?? thats what Doug is struggling, that his concoction remains wet even after 24 hrs.


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## Rumblefish29er (Oct 6, 2012)

Next iteration for me:
2/3 auto slime
1/3 latex
PG as needed
Cornmeal to taste 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Doug said:


> I've read, scanned, and skipped through this very helpful (but unmanageably large) thread. Forgive me if this has been covered, but....
> 
> I made the basic recipe:
> 1 part latex (mold builder)
> ...


Why do you want it to dry quicker? That will just shorten the useful life... it will work just fine. Try it, you will like it.


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## cadoretteboat (Aug 27, 2011)

Neogen said:


> But why slow down the process?? thats what Doug is struggling, that his concoction remains wet even after 24 hrs.


I want the brew to be liquid and effective for a season. Without it, after a month it get gummy and dry out. just my experience.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

bsieb said:


> Why do you want it to dry quicker? That will just shorten the useful life... it will work just fine. Try it, you will like it.


My rear tire is about done, I'll give it a poke with a pin to see how well it seals. If it can't seal fast enough to hold air I don't care how long it lasts.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

FWIW: To remove dried sealant from inside the tire and rim I use soapy water and scrub with a stiff brush. The soapy water doesn't dissolve it but rather lubricates the process and prevents the dislodged bits from sticking allowing them to be rinsed off. It only takes a minute or two and some elbow grease to get the inside of the tire looking like new.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

cadoretteboat said:


> I want the brew to be liquid and effective for a season. Without it, after a month it get gummy and dry out. just my experience.


Sounds like your tires are pretty porous, you might have better luck with a different tire. The Tubeless Ready tires don't dry out as fast, IME. WSS stays liquid longer than anything else I have tried here in the SW. Problems are usually related to the particular tire, not the sealant formula. Worn tires don't work well either, as the sidewalls become quite porous with wear. Tubeless is about sidewalls, which is why many manufacturers are putting less material in the tread and more in the sidewalls. The Maxxis Ikon is a good example of this.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Made batch #2 tonight of:

1 part liquid latex
1 part ATV Slime
1 part RV antifreeze

Sealed up Bontrager XR4/XR3 Team Issue on Bontrager Line Comp rims with no problem at all. Zero mess, zero fuss.


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

driver bob said:


> Made batch #2 tonight of:
> 
> 1 part liquid latex
> 1 part ATV Slime
> ...


Keeping higher ratio of latex does improve the performance. Did you put any tackifier or chunks?


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Neogen said:


> Keeping higher ratio of latex does improve the performance. Did you put any tackifier or chunks?


None at all, the ATV Slime already has little rubber nubs in it.


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## philreske8614 (Apr 25, 2016)

Rumblefish29er said:


> Next iteration for me:
> 2/3 auto slime
> 1/3 latex
> PG as needed
> ...


I would personally stay away from cornmeal. I bad a batch turn out aith a very disgusting yeast smell like it was fermentating.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^weird...Stan's doesn't do this and that is what's in it. None of mine have had this issue.


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## Rumblefish29er (Oct 6, 2012)

Does PG or ammonia serve any role in faster sealing? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Rumblefish29er said:


> Does PG or ammonia serve any role in faster sealing?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No.
PG is a stabilizer and also acts as antifreeze.
Ammonia prevents the latex polymerization, by keeping the pH around 8.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Rumblefish29er said:


> Does PG or ammonia serve any role in faster sealing?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I use PG over EG because PG is considerably less toxic if ingested (kids and animals at home).


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## philreske8614 (Apr 25, 2016)

TiGeo said:


> ^^^weird...Stan's doesn't do this and that is what's in it. None of mine have had this issue.


Really? Ya, I can't really put my finger on it. 
But the sealant works good without so I haven't used cornmeal since.

Maybe some bacteria got in there somehow ?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

philreske8614 said:


> Really? Ya, I can't really put my finger on it.
> But the sealant works good without so I haven't used cornmeal since.
> 
> Maybe some bacteria got in there somehow ?


This got me curious.

It seems some strains of yeast can mutate to be able to use the ammonia as a source for nitrogen.

Fungi, not a plant not an animal, they are both :skep:.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Aglo said:


> No.
> PG is a stabilizer and also acts as antifreeze.
> Ammonia prevents the latex polymerization, by keeping the pH around 8.


And if you use CO2 cartridges to fill or top off your tubeless setup, it will drop the pH, and your latex will polymerize into stanimals and ammonia water, which then proceeds to weep out your sidewalls.

On my last batch of WSS, I used some cornmeal, but added finely chopped maribou feathers (close to down feathers in consistency, but straighter and less prone to clumping) as a filler media. Seems to be working well.


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## K-999 (Nov 28, 2016)

Hello 
I have been here for some time and shall be reports for my brew also, that have from here . The liquid will be stay for 1-2 month , then need to top up.

1.0 Latex = 200 ml (i have more in Thailand from tree !!!)
2.0 PG = 200 ml
3.0 Water = 150 ml
4.0 Ammonia = 10ml.

_*During mix up *_
1.0 Latex + water + Ammonia >> Shake Shake Shake
2.0 Fill with PG = 100 then >> Shake
3.0 Fill with PG = 100 then >> Shake

During shake it will produce WARM liquid,

and you can see the results during test / For











_*FOR MTB tires *_

Can be use with WIRE trie
NO tubeless tire 
Tubeless tire >> now i remove it out , and use only WIRE and FOLD.


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## OregonXC (Sep 1, 2004)

Huh?


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## Renovatio (Nov 22, 2007)

Anyone ever have their tubeless brew mold?



http://imgur.com/dABCV


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Renovatio said:


> Anyone ever have their tubeless brew mold?
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/dABCV


Couple posts back someone reported something similar.


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## mountainclimb (Aug 24, 2013)

for those using the recipe with Cornmeal. is it best to use the finely ground or the courser grind? opinions. thanks.


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## Throb (Dec 25, 2016)

KonaSS said:


> May be a slight thread drift, and totally respect the work you all do to make your own. But if you are in a pinch, OR - like me, just don't have the time or number of bikes to get into DIY, what is the groups thought on the BEST OFF THE SHELF sealant?


Orange Seal Endurance

No boogers so far and lasting a solid year.


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

mountainclimb said:


> for those using the recipe with Cornmeal. is it best to use the finely ground or the courser grind? opinions. thanks.


I can attempt to indirectly answer this. I use finely grounded rice powder and it is serving its purpose very well.


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## mountainclimb (Aug 24, 2013)

so sounds like it is best to go with the finely ground whether is cornmeal or rice? any other opinions or try outs?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Bigger particle size will plug bigger holes but is hader to get thru the valve stem when you are adding fluid. I ruin my cornmeal thru 2 strainers, one to get rid of the powder and one to get rid of the real big chunks that can clog the vavle stem.


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

When you use a strainer on cornmeal to get out 'powder' doesn't the powder go through the strainer? Wouldn't whatever is left in the strainer be the "big chunks"? Do you strain it dry? or do you add water and put it through the strainer? TIA.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I use 2 strainers and the stuff that falls through the small holed stainer I discard. The stuff left in the big hole strainer I discard. The middle size is what goes in the mix. Although lately, I have been experimenting with mix with no particles.


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## Tech5 (Jan 4, 2017)

Hello Guys,

I'm very interested in mixing up my own sealant, cause I now change all my bikes up to tubeless. Until now I just used Stans cause we 've this in our shop and I doesn't have experience with other mixtures yet.

But I also work with epoxy and glass fibre so I got an idea:
Did anyone of you tried "microballoons" as a filler yet?
I'm not sure because I not read the whole thread..

Here you can see what I mean:
Microballoons for Epoxy Resin, Filler| HP-Textiles

//EDIT:
There are also other grades:
5 Liter Microballons, Microballoons, Glashohlkugeln ab 1,20 /Liter je nach Korn | eBay

Maybe this is a good alternative for glitter?

Would be nice to hear your opinion about that.

Br
H.


----------



## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Tech5 said:


> Hello Guys,
> 
> I'm very interested in mixing up my own sealant, cause I now change all my bikes up to tubeless. Until now I just used Stans cause we 've this in our shop and I doesn't have experience with other mixtures yet.
> 
> ...


Can you please help us understand more about this microballoon... how will it differ from rubber crumbs.


----------



## Tech5 (Jan 4, 2017)

Should be lighter -> hollow glass with 0,26 g/cm³ vs rubber crumb with 0,65 g/cm³.
Also you got a defined diameter you can chose so you can mix it up you want to and with a nice range of diamters.


----------



## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Tech5 said:


> Should be lighter -> hollow glass with 0,26 g/cm³ vs rubber crumb with 0,65 g/cm³.
> Also you got a defined diameter you can chose so you can mix it up you want to and with a nice range of diamters.


That sounds promising.. have had a major failure with rubber crumbs.

Is this similar to LDPE? :

Powder Coating, Plastic Coating, Polyester Coating, Thermoset Powder, Electrostatic Powder Coating


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## Tech5 (Jan 4, 2017)

If wikipedia is right LDPE is even heavyer than rubber and the microballoons -> 0.91 g/cm³.
I think in general its comparable but as I mentioned you have a wider range of diameters you can chose for your application.


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## michael9218 (Dec 17, 2006)

Looks promising. Try it and report back.


----------



## Tech5 (Jan 4, 2017)

Which Ø would you recommend as filler?
Imo it should be a "bigger" as the small holes can be plugged with pure latex.


----------



## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

My last batch was latex, slime, DI water and anti freeze. It sealed up the tire but when I got a big thorn in Utah that hole didn't seal well. 

Batch 2 is needed. What ratios should I use? I have latex, RV antifreeze, slime, DI water, and cornmeal, glitter, and other bits I could add.


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## just.karolis (Mar 15, 2016)

For me slime, latex and RV antifreeze didn't work well. After one year tires look ugly inside, it was drying. But maybe it's because I was using Schwalbe lite skin tires.. they are thin as paper. Btw i made experiment and tried to mount road bike tire as tubeless my diy sealant didn't seal tire and it was not holding pressure Conti Revo sealed instantly same rim, same tire. Probably will give a chance to Conti. 

Sent from my SM-G388F using Tapatalk


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

Remember, this has been discussed before: chunkulators need to have close to neutral boyancy in the sealant. Otherwise they might float on the top and never get to a hole to seal it. Corn meal is just a little heavier than my sealant mixture, if you agitate it, it takes a while to sink. Slime is another example. It is thicker, but rubber chunks are denser than corn meal yet they are neutral density to slime since you can look at slime that has sat around for a month and the rubber is still more or less randomly floating. I don't tink corn meal is great becaiuse it is such a perfect product; I think corn meal works because it has the right density.


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## Tech5 (Jan 4, 2017)

Not sure if it's right but I found 0,66 g/cm³ for cornmeal?
Thats almost exactly the value for rubber.

//But you could be right with demixing when the density is way to different with base fluid.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Tech5 said:


> Not sure if it's right but I found 0,66 g/cm³ for cornmeal?
> Thats almost exactly the value for rubber.
> 
> //But you could be right with demixing when the density is way to different with base fluid.


Some notes.
~0,66g/cm3 is the density for dry cornmeal, don't know the density of hydrated cornmeal but i'm sure its higher than 0.82g/cm3 because that's the density for cornmeal flour.
Solid rubber has a higher value than 0.66g/cm3, usually rubber is over 0.8g/cm3 and I think that is for natural rubber (dry latex), hard solid rubber, not sure so don't take my word for it, is over 1.1g/cm3.
You can't use density values for grounded or dry chunkulators because they will behave differently in the mix, because the air will be replaced by water/pg/latex/etc...

If I recall correctly the density for old Stan's is around 0.92g/cm3, meaning our BAMFS should also be around this value, so chunkulator with density values around this is ideal for a better neutral buoyancy.

I have yet to check your link, and will do it later.
I think some users had already tried with *glass wool and *rock wool, don't recall the results.

*-don't know if those are the correct names in english, but those are the literal translation of the names in my language.


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## Tech5 (Jan 4, 2017)

I found this for rubber:



> The average loose density of tire shreds varies according to the size of the shreds, but can be expected to be between 390 kg/m3 (24 lb/ft3) to 535 kg/m3 (33 lb/ft3). The average compacted density ranges from 650 kg/m3 (40 lb/ft3) to 840 kg/m3 (52 lb/ft3).(3)


https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/infrastructure/structures/97148/st1.cfm

So it has a wide range I guess.

Here you can find the datasheet for the glass:
http://www.hp-textiles.com/TDS/EN/Fillers_Additive/Microballoons/HP-MB2.pdf


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

yourdaguy said:


> Remember, this has been discussed before: chunkulators need to have close to neutral boyancy in the sealant. Otherwise they might float on the top and never get to a hole to seal it. Corn meal is just a little heavier than my sealant mixture, if you agitate it, it takes a while to sink. Slime is another example. It is thicker, but rubber chunks are denser than corn meal yet they are neutral density to slime since you can look at slime that has sat around for a month and the rubber is still more or less randomly floating. I don't tink corn meal is great becaiuse it is such a perfect product; I think corn meal works because it has the right density.


I feel you are right. So is the case with Rice powder.

At times I do wonder why change and look for LDPE etc, when rice powder is doing an awesome job.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Neogen said:


> I feel you are right. So is the case with Rice powder.
> 
> At times I do wonder why change and look for LDPE etc, when rice powder is doing an awesome job.


Because we have restless minds and... well we are just humans, and we like new things


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

yourdaguy said:


> Remember, this has been discussed before: chunkulators need to have close to neutral boyancy in the sealant. Otherwise they might float on the top and never get to a hole to seal it. Corn meal is just a little heavier than my sealant mixture, if you agitate it, it takes a while to sink. Slime is another example. It is thicker, but rubber chunks are denser than corn meal yet they are neutral density to slime since you can look at slime that has sat around for a month and the rubber is still more or less randomly floating. I don't tink corn meal is great becaiuse it is such a perfect product; I think corn meal works because it has the right density.


Xantham Gum keeps it all in suspension 

I had booger problems with XG and Rubber Crumb but my XG & Corn Meal mix has no such problems.


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## Balor (Jan 21, 2011)

After trying a formula I've swiped from a patent:
Patent US20140221535 - Tire Sealant and Preparation Method Thereof - Google Patents

*I can say that all latex-based solutions are inferior and chitosan/PVAl gel is the future of sealants.*

It seals large punctures - but hey, so can Stans and brews with proper amount of chunkulators.

What is excels at is nearly instantly sealing micro-pores like in Continental Racesport tires, preventing sidewall weeping and keeping air in like a butyl tube. (While, for obvious reasons, highly porous tires sealed by latex-based sealants keep air more like a latex tube - requiring frequent pump-ups and refills. Latex is water and air permeable to a degree, after all.)

Also, reprecipitating chitosan with waterglass instead of NaOH results in SiO2 gel that must also do a good job of helping seal this pores.

I'm also using PVAl crosslinked by borax and then put though a kitchen blender.
Note that performance of pure PVAl gel is inferior to PVAl/chitosan mix, it also have a tendency to coalesce, but it can be prevented by adding bentonite clay as per instructions. Chitosan gel seems to prevent coalescing and permanent sedimentation even without it, though bentonite might be a good component anyway, 'tests pending' 

A caveat:

It has a tendency to stick to rims pretty strongly when tried up, though - which might be a problem for UST rims (does not stick to polypropylene tapes like Stans or TESA, obviously).

It also pretty hard to remove from a tire when dried - though not much moreso than Latex-based sealants.

What is also great that it does not require alkaline medium (high PH) and will not form boogers (just not acidic or chitosan will dissolve again).

So, you can simply add water/antifreeze regularly and never worry about boogers. Since it seems to seal the tire from within much better, I think it would require less frequent topping up, too - even in porous tires.

I highly recommend all homebrewers to try it. I've ordered my batch of chitosan from Amazon, bentonite clay is a component of some cat litter fillers, PVAl can be had from 'crafts shops'.

Note: if you see 'water-soluble chitosan', *avoid*, this is a scam.
I've been not careful and got one batch like that from Aliexpress first, turns out it is simple dietary glucose. Rather ironic, since 'dietary chitosan' is marketed as intestinal absorption enhancer and _slimming aid_ .

EDIT:
I've mixed up polyvinyl acetate and polyvinyl alcohol. We need latter, of course - first is thermoplastic polymer that is not soluble in water. When you see PVAl, think polyvinyl alcohol.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Balor said:


> After trying a formula I've swiped from a patent:
> Patent US20140221535 - Tire Sealant and Preparation Method Thereof - Google Patents
> 
> *I can say that all latex-based solutions are inferior and chitosan/PVAc gel is the future of sealants.*


Ok, sounds like you're onto something. Can you give us the exact recipe you are currently using, and perhaps a history of mixes tried and results gained?

Thanks for sharing!


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

I'm in. would love to experiment...the patent was too confusing, a recepie would help.


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## Balor (Jan 21, 2011)

Hmm. That is how I do it.

Dissolve some chitosan as per instructions in 1% acetic acid (diluted vinegar, basically). For now I'm using 10 gramms. (1%) per liter. After some stirring you will end up with dilute 'chitosan kisel'. 

Neutralize the acid with waterglass, don't go too overboard or solution will become too alkaline (may not be good for your rims). I'm not a chemist so I cannot say how much is really required, a litmus paper might be helpful. The solution will turn opaque and even more viscous, forming a gel. Add a tablespon of 'undiluted' chitosan, it helps with 'logjam' mechanism of sealing as patent states.

Dissolve PVAl in water, will take some boiling water and a lot of stirring. Don't aim for more then 5% solution, PVAl has limited solubility. 
Add about as much boric acid by weight as PVAl (or even less, as my experience shows). The solution will pretty much instantly turn into a block of rubbery gel (great fun, btw).
Shove it into a blender and give it a whirl, until you'll get chunks fine enough to fit into a valve hole.
Add that gooey mass into your sealant (up to 10% of total mass according to patent, that is about as much as I did), mix up.


P.S. I also make silicagel by neutralising waterglass with same acetic acid and add a few grams into the mix. 

Like I said, before I got real chitosan, I've experimented with just PVAl gel and got poor results. With SiO2 (silicagel) blended into the mix I've got MUCH better results, but I also had to add bentonite to prevent coagulation.

I'll be testing 'bentonite-less' brew soon, too, and will keep you guys posted.
I've been testing it for a while already, and I think this should really shift the 'sealant paradigm'.


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## Balor (Jan 21, 2011)

A point of note:

If you have an old tire you want to experiment with, a layer of latex buildup will interfere with this sealant function.
Clean it well first, or try with a new tire (or, preferably, an old tire you thought worthless for tubeless installation)

I've been using it with great success on converting Continental Grand Prix road tires into tubeless, for instance, and 'Cyclocross speed' tires that are inexpensive and roll wonderfully. It took a LOT of time and effort to seal them up with Stans, and they were weeping and leaking air for a week, requiring nearly constant attention.
Even after initial sealing period they were behaving like tires with latex tubes, necessitating a pressure check every ride. With this sealant this is nearly as easy as mounting an UST tire, and it holds air nearly as well.


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## Balor (Jan 21, 2011)

By the way, I've tried a mix without bentonite and it didn't seal nearly as well.
Fortunately, this is really cheap and easy to get ingredient.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Okay, reading thru - here's the materials list. Priced available quantities, added needed amts per calcs below - please correct as required;

The "body"/carrier/main mix - 90%;
Chitosan powder - 90% deacetylation. $11/100g - need 30g
Dilute acetic acid (distilled vinegar), too cheap to worry/1 gal - need 3L
Waterglass, or sodium metasilicate, $11/1 lb - need a Tbsp?
Litmus paper, $1/80 strips

Chunkulants - 10%;
Polyvinyl Alcohol powder, $11/100g - need 12.5g
Boric acid (roach away), $5/1 lb (454g) - need 10g
Distilled water, too cheap to worry/1 gal - need 1 1/2 cups
Bentonite clay powder, $10/1 lb - need 1 Tbsp

Body/carrier:
Mix 10g chitosan/1 liter vinegar, add sodium metasilicate to reach pH of 6.6–7.3. Basic yield? Maybe 1.3L?

PVA gel - 5% PVA in boiling water, boric acid to gel, blend fine. PVA density is 1.19g/cm3, works out to about 25g/oz volume. A mix of 1/2 oz or 1 tablespoon (Tbsp) PVA to 10 oz water is about a 5% solution. Add 1 Tbsp boric acid. Should yield about 1 .5 cup, or 0.36L. 

So make 3x basic body mix, 1 PVA gel as above, + Tbsp Bentonite.

30g Chitosan, 3 L vinegar, 1Tbs PVA, 10oz distilled water, 1 Tbsp boric acid, 1Tbsp Bentonite.

This batch should be just more than 1 gallon. (container needed)


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## Balor (Jan 21, 2011)

Hmm. Why so much vinegar? You really only need about 1% vinegar for dissolution of chitosan, and I'm doing it in a separate small jug myself. Then I add waterglass until it turns into a thick 'hairy' gel and pour it into the main container. (Btw, make sure you first dump the chitosan into a liquid and THAN add vinegar, otherwise it will clump up and will not dissolve).

By the way, I've found out that waterglass also crosslinks PVA solution, resulting in something like silicone rubber - and extremely tough one! My mixer even failed to blend it, so not that is not that useful by itself.
But if you mix pva solution with dilute chitosan and THEN add waterglass you get a very interesting 'hairy gel', easily blendable and very thick. (Did I mention that doing this 'chemistry at home' is fun? )
I think this is even getting outside the scope of the original patent, hah. But more experiments are required to fine tune proportions. It may be used as an addition to borax-crosslinked PVA or instead of it - again, there is still room for more experiments.
But you still need to 'dope' it with silicagel and bentonite for it to truly work as intended.
In result you get a gel that resist settling, plugs holes both large and small and holds air nearly like a butyl tube.

I recommend you to try it on a Continental tire first - they are infamous for their porous sidewalls, I can attest to that.
Get a pair and compare results to your WSS latex-based sealant.
It likely works better than Stans, but still latex is much more permeable.
I wonder if adding bentonite/precipitated silicagel to your WSS as 'chunkulators' would make it as good or better, though?

Latex is more expensive however (I actually got 500 grams of PVAl for 10$, and that is HUGE amounts so far as resulting volumes are concerned) and prone to "polymerization into stanimals" (c) as soon as PH drops.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Balor said:


> Hmm. Why so much vinegar? You really only need about 1% vinegar for dissolution of chitosan, and I'm doing it in a separate small jug myself. Then I add waterglass until it turns into a thick 'hairy' gel and pour it into the main container. (Btw, make sure you first dump the chitosan into a liquid and THAN add vinegar, otherwise it will clump up and will not dissolve).


This is why so much vinegar:



Balor said:


> Hmm. That is how I do it.
> 
> Dissolve some chitosan as per instructions in 1% acetic acid (diluted vinegar, basically). For now I'm using 10 gramms. (1%) per liter. After some stirring you will end up with dilute 'chitosan kisel'.


I interpreted this as 10g chitosan per liter vinegar - or was your comment on the strength of the vinegar?



Balor said:


> Then I add waterglass until it turns into a thick 'hairy' gel and pour it into the main container. (Btw, make sure you first dump the chitosan into a liquid and THAN add vinegar, otherwise it will clump up and will not dissolve).


What other liquid before adding vinegar? I think this is the same misinterpretation, and the answer may clarify all. If only a small amount of vinegar is needed, perhaps the balance is distilled water? Best answer would be proportions needed of chitosan, vinegar, ?, ?....



Balor said:


> By the way, I've found out that waterglass also crosslinks PVA solution, resulting in something like silicone rubber - and extremely tough one! My mixer even failed to blend it, so not that is not that useful by itself.
> But if you mix pva solution with dilute chitosan and THEN add waterglass you get a very interesting gel 'hairy gel', easily blendable and very thick. (Did I mention that doing this 'chemistry at home' is fun? )
> I think this is even getting outside the scope of the original patent, hah. But more experiments are required to fine tune proportions. It may be used as an addition to borax-crosslinked PVA or instead of it - again, there is still room for more experiments.
> But you still need to 'dope' it with silicagel and bentonite for it to truly work as intended.
> In result you get a gel that resist settling, plugs holes both large and small and holds air nearly like a butyl tube.


Hmm. I'm still thinking in terms of "carrier fluid" and "chunkulants" - but it seems that you are blurring the line a bit? Not a bad thing, indeed - and it's the same set of ingredients. Experiment on! And keep us posted.



Balor said:


> I wonder if adding bentonite/precipitated silicagel to your WSS as 'chunkulators' would make it as good or better, though?


This is indeed an interesting thought. We tried hard silica (dessicant) run thru a blender - but it was too hard/heavy and settled out. Soft blended silica gel sounds better, and bentonite as a very small pitch chunkulant sounds appealing as well. Conversely, I was contemplating adding cotton "linter" fibers to your mix, since they work so well in


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## Balor (Jan 21, 2011)

wadester said:


> I interpreted this as 10g chitosan per liter vinegar - or was your comment on the strength of the vinegar?


Yea, 'strength' of vinegar, exactly - or, namely 'concentration of acetic acid'. It is usually sold in 7% concentration, so you need to dilute it.



wadester said:


> What other liquid before adding vinegar? I think this is the same misinterpretation, and the answer may clarify all. If only a small amount of vinegar is needed, perhaps the balance is distilled water? Best answer would be proportions needed of chitosan, vinegar, ?, ?....


The fluid is what was described as 'solvent' in the patent. Basically water + antifreeze additives like PG or glycerine. I've bought a 10-liter jug of glycerine-based heat transfer fluid myself .
I'm just diluting the chitosan in one large cup with 1% acetic acid (concentration, again, volume does not matter much), than add enough waterglass to neutralise it and pour it into the blender, adding bentonite, precipitated silica and crosslinked PVAl gel, blend, than add more antifreeze as required and mix.
It does not mean that this is an optimum way, and I'm still did not test borax-crosslinked vs waterglass-crosslinked gels.



wadester said:


> This is indeed an interesting thought. We tried hard silica (dessicant) run thru a blender - but it was too hard/heavy and settled out. Soft blended silica gel sounds better, and bentonite as a very small pitch chunkulant sounds appealing as well. Conversely, I was contemplating adding cotton "linter" fibers to your mix, since they work so well in


Hah! I've been using shredded tube to try and seal a 5-mm long gash in sidewall.
It sealed at low pressure, but when I tried to up the pressure (road tire) - spit it out.

I'll sure try adding cotton fibers and see how it goes.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

Can't find this info in this thread...

Is there a difference between "liquid latex" used in special effects prosthetics (like making Halloween monster makeup) and latex mould builder? I have found liquid a bit cheaper. 
Liquid Latex (16 Fluid Ounces) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004WCMKA0/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_yXNKybTTQQ331

I have been using latex caulk lately. Super cheap but not sure it works that well seems to harden and dry quickly.


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## chet wright (Oct 30, 2005)

*2 wraps of tape?*

My LBS is telling me to run 2 wraps of stan's tape, I don't see anyway that could add anything but cost to the setup. Stan's video shows one wrap with a six inch overlap.
Any thoughts?
Also, I'm having trouble finding latex locally. Party place wanted 23.99 for 12 0z jar.
Our hobby lobby claims not to carry it, but I was asking for liquid latex, not mold builder.
Finally ordered from Amazon. Cheap enough. Any other places might carry it? Art supply place I'm sure would be expensive too.
It's not worth the hassle if it costs more than Stan's.
Finally, I know a lot of people have contributed to this forum, but would be nice to find a recipe complete w mixing order here. Too much searching, and I almost ruined a batch before I found out mixing order was important. Not *****ing, just seems like a lot of reading.
And thanks to those "On shoulders we stand" for blazing the WSS trail.
Chet


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

2 wraps is a waste. The biggest problem with Stan's tape is that it tends to become unstuck at the end of the overlap. This is true even if you let it sit for several hours with a tube to seat the tape. I have used a small piece of clear package tape to seal the ends of my last wheel build. I will report back. I have successfully used Goop in the past but you have to wait for it to dry. I am pretty sure Gorilla tape (the clear kind) would work and I will also experiment with that on next retaping.


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## chet wright (Oct 30, 2005)

I'll watch for that. I have break my rear wheel apart (New Wheelset!), so I'll check the overlap.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

chet wright said:


> Finally, I know a lot of people have contributed to this forum, but would be nice to find a recipe complete w mixing order here. Too much searching, and I almost ruined a batch before I found out mixing order was important.


Every once in a while someone will post a recipe or group of recipes in a single post. I've done it myself. Problem is there's so much going on that it doesn't take long before it's lost in the thread.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Just mixed a new batch of BAMFSv2.0 - 2 parts distilled water, 2 parts PG (Tractor Supply), 0.3 parts ammonia (Ace hardware), 1 part latex (Mold Builder), 1 tbs cornmeal (Kroger white). My v2.0 doesn't have the XG in it...I really don't think it helps and seems to make it thicker. This is basically the Stan's clone recipe. Will be installing some new tires so figured I would use my own vs. Stan's.

Has anyone de-constructed the new Stan's Race formula sealant? Sounds like it has more/larger chunkulators and is thicker overall. I wonder if that is must what I have above with more latex and cornmeal or do you think its a different chunkulator? Its expensive.


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## HPIguy (Sep 16, 2014)

^^Is that to mix up a pint sized bottle? Or would a pint sized bottle come out like this? (I just tripled everything)

6oz water
6oz PG
.9oz amonia 
3oz latex
3tbsp cornmeal


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## Dikkie (Dec 16, 2005)

@Tigeo:
To me it looks like glassfiber, also I guess it contains more ammonia, it smells much stronger than the regular Stan's.
I bought the race sealant but it is less easy to refill. It cloggs the syringe, even the old bottle tube seals up, so I have to partly undo the bead from the rim.
Best way imo is to use the race sealant first time and afterwards refill with the regular or selfmade solution through the valve.
The race version seals better and faster though.


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## mack_turtle (Jan 6, 2009)

I am using the Hucking Kitty recipe (latex caulk, RV antifreeze, Slime) and my rear tire constantly has these wet-looking spots on it. This is what it looks like after 4 days of hanging in the garage. (Maxxis Igniter TR EXO) What's going on here?


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

^^^it's the PG (RV antifreeze) weeping. I get that with Stan's on some tires. The longer they sit, the more I see it.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Yeah, what LR said. I've had that in sidewalls from flex/porosity, and in the tread from "not quite sealed" punctures/porosity. Older tires are worse, but brand new tires may also do it.

Some people have "painted" the inside of their tires with rubber cement or latex to seal porosity, but flex over time and punctures still lead to this.

It's actually sealant leaking out - but the chunkulants either stick in the hole or fall off, the water evaporates, and you're left with the glycol - which sticks around and looks wet.


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## K-999 (Nov 28, 2016)

*Update for OLD school V break rim and fold tire applied for TUBELESS*


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

I'm still running: 
1 part ATV slime
1 part latex 
1 part PG 
1 part h20 

Been 2-3 years now and I've had more non-sealant wheel issues than sealant issues.

Still, sadly, I haven't been able to convince my commrades to start home brewing...


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## Bail_Monkey (May 8, 2007)

Not sure this will work, but anyone try to re-hydrate their sealant? (So it stays liquid for longer w/o drying into a latex ball)

Was thinking..... ~once a month or every two months, add a small amount of a hydrating mixture: PG, H2o, Ammonia.

I would guess that it would need to be done from the start from a fresh sealant install as this would not help if the latex is already starting to combine due to a lack of moisture/fluid.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Toot3344556 said:


> I'm still running:
> 1 part ATV slime
> 1 part latex
> 1 part PG
> ...


I'm pretty close to that but have been thinking of less PG and more water. Slime already has quite a bit of PG in it as far as I can tell.

My next batch I think I might try.


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

*Adding liquids to prolong sealant life.*

I used to do that and it did seem to prolong life by about 2x. Now I use nitrogen.



Bail_Monkey said:


> Not sure this will work, but anyone try to re-hydrate their sealant? (So it stays liquid for longer w/o drying into a latex ball)
> 
> Was thinking..... ~once a month or every two months, add a small amount of a hydrating mixture: PG, H2o, Ammonia.
> 
> I would guess that it would need to be done from the start from a fresh sealant install as this would not help if the latex is already starting to combine due to a lack of moisture/fluid.


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

Bail_Monkey said:


> Not sure this will work, but anyone try to re-hydrate their sealant? (So it stays liquid for longer w/o drying into a latex ball)
> 
> Was thinking..... ~once a month or every two months, add a small amount of a hydrating mixture: PG, H2o, Ammonia.
> 
> I would guess that it would need to be done from the start from a fresh sealant install as this would not help if the latex is already starting to combine due to a lack of moisture/fluid.


I couldn't tell you where in the thread it is but I know its been done and discussed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Bail_Monkey said:


> Not sure this will work, but anyone try to re-hydrate their sealant? (So it stays liquid for longer w/o drying into a latex ball)
> 
> Was thinking..... ~once a month or every two months, add a small amount of a hydrating mixture: PG, H2o, Ammonia.
> 
> I would guess that it would need to be done from the start from a fresh sealant install as this would not help if the latex is already starting to combine due to a lack of moisture/fluid.


Topping off with sealant regularly works well for me, and doesn't seem to get progressively thicker over the life of a tire. I have tried adding additional ammonia but it didn't seem worth the bother so I just top off once a month. Try it in one tire so you have a basis for comparison.


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## Schulze (Feb 21, 2007)

Like you said, Hobby Lobby mold builder. Print a 40% off coupon from their website and it's as cheap as Amazon, but instant satisfaction.


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## chet wright (Oct 30, 2005)

I made a batch with AF/latex/ammonia/slime/cornmeal as described here, but in spite of vigorously shaking the mix prior to filling tubes, the bottom 4 ounces of the batch was way too clogged with clunks of cornmeal. It made getting into the tubes problematic. I'm using the Stan's injector into shrader valves (with core removed). I ended up pouring it through a sifter to take out the clogs.
I have been filling tubes on fixer bikes that I don't see again, so I don't know if the solution works, I assume it does. This batch has lasted 2 months, so it shouldn't be old.
Have you guys been sifting the cornmeal, or is the just the way the bottom of the batch is going to be?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

chet wright said:


> I made a batch with AF/latex/ammonia/slime/cornmeal as described here, but in spite of vigorously shaking the mix prior to filling tubes, the bottom 4 ounces of the batch was way too clogged with clunks of cornmeal. It made getting into the tubes problematic. I'm using the Stan's injector into shrader valves (with core removed). I ended up pouring it through a sifter to take out the clogs.
> I have been filling tubes on fixer bikes that I don't see again, so I don't know if the solution works, I assume it does. This batch has lasted 2 months, so it shouldn't be old.
> Have you guys been sifting the cornmeal, or is the just the way the bottom of the batch is going to be?


Truth to be known... just omit the cornmeal, it will work as well or better.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I always use corn meal, works great, but I use PG and water, not AF and I use automotive slime. Been using the same mix for a few years now. I make a batch of about 3/4 gallon at a time, lasts 3 years between my trail bike, fat bike and my son's bike. 

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

I don't use cornmeal, as long as it's not a sidewall slash everything got sealed up.


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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

RAKC Ind said:


> I always use corn meal, works great, but I use PG and water, not AF and I use automotive slime. Been using the same mix for a few years now. I make a batch of about 3/4 gallon at a time, lasts 3 years between my trail bike, fat bike and my son's bike.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


Sounds like you found a good formula. what is the formula that you're using?


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

I used to run my cornmeal through 2 strainers and used the stuff from the middle one. This eliminated the powder and the big pieces that tended to clog the valve stem when I was putting it in the tire. Different brands probably have different size particles and different variability. Anyway, I don't use cornmeal any more since, as stated, if it is not a huge hole the sealeant will work anyway and the cornmeal probably increased boogers. 99% of my leaks are thorns. Without corn it might take a second or 2 longer, but they hole still always seals.


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

Distilled water 32oz
Propylene Glycol 32oz
Ammonia 2oz
Latex 32oz
Automotive slime 8 oz
Cornmeal 3/4 cup (strained to remove power, I don't use the really course stuff so no larger pieces).

Actually a bit more than 3/4 of a gallon but after doing my new plus bike and filling a 16oz slime bottle probably 3/4 of the way I have about 2/3 of my 1 gallon jug left. Having the spare bottle in the van is nice because I have enough to completely refill a set of tires and then some if needed when out of town.

Only booger issues I have is if I use CO2 or previous to having full tubeless rims and tires, burping a tire off the rim that let crap inside. Then using CO2 to reseat the tire and fill up so I can finish my ride. Won't ever go back to ghetto tubeless garbage ever again lol.

Also my jug sits in unheated garage all winter (a lot of sub zero days) and unaffected.

99% of what I deal with is thorns (some get damn big on some.of the plants here), sometimes glass (asshats tossing beer bottles on the ground) and such. Literally NEVER even noticed a leak as it seals quickly. I get a nice gelatin type coating inside the tire when I first set them up. Add a little more after a few rides, don't touch then again for the entire season. Following season drain fluid, any buggers, add a little and go.

Fat bike hasn't been touched since I set up tubeless a year ago.

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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Like I said, omit the cornmeal, it doesn't do anything, you get everything you mentioned without it too.


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

RAKC Ind said:


> Distilled water 32oz
> Propylene Glycol 32oz
> Ammonia 2oz
> Latex 32oz
> ...


If you are using slime, then you dont need cornmeal


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

chet wright said:


> Have you guys been sifting the cornmeal, or is the just the way the bottom of the batch is going to be?


I noticed this just the other night as I was getting to the bottom of my current batch. Had a couple small cornmeal clogs as well as hair clogs (I use hair shed by my now deceased Great Dane) in my applicator bottle. But since I got my Stan's rims and am unable to use the syringe I got a these bottles to fill my wheels through a cracked bead and they make it much easier to fill a clog than with the syringe.

I've always made my sealant thicker than everyone else so I've found that on a new tire I need 8oz to seal the bead and still have sealant left in the tire. An 8oz bottle works perfect.

Getting ready to make another batch and I may just try the watered down version everyone raves about...



RAKC Ind said:


> Distilled water 32oz
> Propylene Glycol 32oz
> Ammonia 2oz
> Latex 32oz
> ...


What everyone else said... The cornmeal was a chunkulator added to our homebrew to help seal larger holes. The slime has chunkulators in it so using slime and corn meal is probably not necessary. Guess it can't hurt, though...


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

The cornmeal has bigger chunks that the slime and their all about the size of thorn holes. Just found they seal up faster vs waiting for a slime chunk big enough to plug it.

I though about eliminating the slime cause cornmeal seems to do better in that area.

Noticed I mistyped my ratios though cause only 16oz of PG (one 32oz bottle lasts 2 batches).

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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

RAKC Ind said:


> Noticed I mistyped my ratios though cause only 16oz of PG (one 32oz bottle lasts 2 batches).


And you use two 16oz tubs of latex? It's been a couple years since I needed a batch but that seemed like a lot...


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

No just one big 32oz tub.

I just looked at my paper I wrote it down on

Basically 3:1 water to PG (48oz water).

It's over 3/4 gallon when done. I use a larger amount of latex just due to all the little crap I run over that makes pin holes and does a good job of sealing weapy side walls

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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Since I'm getting ready for a new batch I figured I'd go back a few pages and see what everyone is using...



TiGeo said:


> Just mixed a new batch of BAMFSv2.0 -
> 
> 2 parts distilled water,
> 2 parts PG (Tractor Supply),
> ...





K-999 said:


> 1.0 Latex = 200 ml (i have more in Thailand from tree !!!)
> 2.0 PG = 200 ml
> 3.0 Water = 150 ml
> 4.0 Ammonia = 10ml.
> ...





Neogen said:


> *OSS v1.0f:*
> 16 oz PG
> 26 oz RO water
> 4 oz ammonia
> ...





bikeCOLORADO said:


> 2 Cups Water
> 1 Cup Ethylene Glycol
> 1 Cup Latex
> 2-3 Tbs Cornmeal or Static Grass (static display grass)
> ...





PHeller said:


> BAMFS 2.0 is as follows:
> Latex: 1 part (Mold Builder @ Hobby Lobby or similar)
> Propylene glycol: 2 parts (Tractor Supply)
> Distilled water: 2 parts
> ...





thuren said:


> My latest mix feels PERFECT!
> 
> Did a 48hour "skin test" compared to Stan's, and they feel almost identical It is VERY watery just like Stan's. I'm about 20% latex. My goal is to try less latex with extra Ammonia, to try and keep the cornmeal active inside the tire. Will report back after a few weeks of use. I'll be giving some friends the mix to try themselves also.
> 
> ...





Aglo said:


> Ok this are the recipes I have saved in my PC, don't know if they are the most recent or not.
> 
> *OSS v1.0f:*
> 16 oz PG
> ...





PHeller said:


> Well I did it. I had a tub of Mold Builder that was almost a year old, so I decided if I was going to make this mix it had to be sooner rather than later. My 4th pinch flat of the season sealed the deal. The mix would be made.
> 
> 32 oz of Propolyene Glycol from Tractor Supply - $22
> 32 oz of Distilled Water - $2
> ...





TiGeo said:


> Report on BAMFS v3.0. This is basically Stan's clone + ammonia + XG.
> 
> PG (Tractor Supply) - 2 parts
> DI water - 2 parts
> ...





Xethur said:


> Setup my tires for the first time tonight. Lots of shaking due to porous side walls. The Vegetale glycerine mix seems to be working well now that all the pinholes are sealed.
> 
> 29oz distilled water
> 28oz Vegetable glycerin
> ...





TiGeo said:


> BAMFSv2.0 is just my Stan's clone OSS:
> 
> 1 part latex
> 2 parts PG
> ...


Think I'm gonna go with BAMFS... Mine is thicker and works fine but I feel like it's so thick that it not only takes more to keep liquid in the tire it also seems to not last as long. That's part of why I put 8oz in each tire 

Don't have a lot of faith that something as thin as water can work but everyone besides me can't be wrong, right?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

That was some dedication, finding and copying all that posts.

I also had my doubts, but even after removing the XG and not adding any chunklator, it just works.

I don't have boogers, and I don't need to touch my tires for months, last time I touched my front tire was five months ago.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Aglo said:


> That was some dedication, finding and copying all that posts.


I only went from page 102 to somewhere in the mid 80s. Then I noticed the mid 80s was 2015 so stopped...


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

bigOmike said... "Don't have a lot of faith that something as thin as water can work but everyone besides me can't be wrong, right?"

Some observations:

When you consider that it is a lack of moisture that dries up the sealant, starting out with a thick mix is a handicap, it's like half dried out sealant when it goes in, maybe?

The thinner the mix, the more quickly and evenly it covers the entire inner wheel surface. The chunks/fibers have to be small enough to stay with the sealant that is hitting the sidewalls, beads, and rim as well.

I don't see that a plug of plain hardened latex is any weaker than a chunk of corn meal, or rubber chunk, fibers, or whatever, as long as no air is leaving the tire. Any marginal gain in gap plugging ability will be matched by more constant leaking due to the effects of flexing around the larger plug.

I have observed that the sealant life is affected by the overall porosity of the tire more than anything else. The thicker the sidewall the longer the sealant lasts, or the less you can use. I have always used 2 ozs in my 29er/2.4 tires, but in my arid climate I top off every 30 to 45 days. At 40 gms per oz of sealant, those slightly heavier and thicker sidewalls start to pay off in terms of overall tire/sealant weight.

Chunkulators "seem" to pay a price in terms of amount required and reduced sealant life. 

Just a few thoughts based on a lot of experience, history, mistakes.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

No cornmeal for me, but finished out another winter using the 1 part H20, Latex, RV antifreeze, auto slime, sometimes watered down a little more than this, as it tends to mix a little thick, but I store like this because it's easy to mix. Down to about -20°F or so. Picked up a few big thorns/goatheads in Texas with the mixture, sealed up great.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> bigOmike said... "Don't have a lot of faith that something as thin as water can work but everyone besides me can't be wrong, right?"
> 
> Some observations:
> 
> ...


All good points. And, the experience of everyone else is why I'm gonna give it a try. But, I may be misrepresenting my version and how thick it is. It's only slightly thicker than everyone else's. It has no problems coating the inside of the tire nor keeping the chunks suspended so they can fill holes when needed. I'd say my last batch and it's almost complete lack of boogers demonstrated that.

My point was merely that when you think of things that plug holes it's natural to think that a syrup is going to plug a hole better than would water. Likewise, a sink of syrup filled with dog hair is gonna plug the drain better than water alone. I know there are other things going on like the shear effect, spoke of many moons ago, that is the reason why the latex hardens as it's violently expelled so that "thickness" theory of mine doesn't necessarily hold water, so to speak. It's still hard to think that thicker is not better than thinner.

It's like knowing if you carry a buttload of speed through that rock garden and let your suspension work you'll get through it faster and smoother. But, as you approach it your brain is telling you you're gonna kill yourself if you don't slow down 

I will also agree that a chunk of latex sealing a hole is no better or worse if it has some form of chunkulator in it. The issue is that those chunkulators will allow the sealant to work on a larger hole. Sure, it's not necessary as often since most punctures are from goat heads or tiny thorns, but that's to each person's preference. I'll keep them because I've seen them work first hand when they sealed a hole nearly 1/8" in dia. that allowed me to pedal off the trail that day. When I was adding sealant and reinflating that tire a couple days later it completely blew out but I didn't have a HaB to get home that day.


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

Just got a scale to weigh MTB parts and my Rocket Ron is weighing in at 730G!!! 
This means that I have close to 100grams of dried home-brew on the tire!

What's the preferred method for removing this? Hot soap and water with some elbow grease? 

Was hoping something like baking soda would just take it off LOL

I do the Latex PG Slime h20 mixture, i leave it thicker than stans would be and the sealant is laid on pretty thick. I don't think it's 100% dry even though it's been sitting out for a 6-8 months without use because I can't peel it off in big chunks.


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## zephxiii (Aug 12, 2011)

Just peel it off, that's what I did with my Orange Seal buildup... And make a nice little ball just like this:


__
http://instagr.am/p/_fqiy-tJJK/

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## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

Toot3344556 said:


> Just got a scale to weigh MTB parts and my Rocket Ron is weighing in at 730G!!!
> This means that I have close to 100grams of dried home-brew on the tire!


IF you weighed the tire to know it is 630g. Claimed Tire weights are notoriously inaccurate.

On top of that the sidewall is paper thin and cleaning that sealant off will mean the tire does not hold air well.

I have one on the rear and if I wash it (outside) the air pressure drops overnight due to the sidewall holes getting cleaned. I can see bubbles all over as air leaks out.

I'd leave it as is unless you don't mind a tire getting soft during a ride.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Toot3344556 said:


> Just got a scale to weigh MTB parts and my Rocket Ron is weighing in at 730G!!!
> This means that I have close to 100grams of dried home-brew on the tire!


I wish I could feel the difference an extra 100 grams on my bike makes. I've probably got that much mud on my bike right now...

And, I'm not trying to make fun of you weight weenies. I'm certain there are people that can feel the difference 100 grams makes, or 1# of extra air in a tire. I can't and I'm guessing 99% of people that own a bike can't. I didn't notice a difference when I upgraded a bunch of components and took my 160mm rig from 36# to 30.5#. Well, I notice the difference when I lift it on my back for a HaB...

Oh... to be a 1%er!


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## RAKC Ind (Jan 27, 2017)

I have too loose a lb off a wheel/tire combo to notice. Like the heavy ass tubes that came with my plus bike, just over a lb each (let's not even talk OEM fat bike tubes lol). Lost over 1.5lbs per wheel swapping tires and going tubeless because tape was factory installed already.

If I don't see any bad reports of Durocs being too soft when those hoops with new hubs/spokes will save another lb per wheel. 1-200 grams I don't notice, 1lb on up I definitely notice with climbing around here.

I have never removed the sealant skin off the inside of my tires, I leave it unless it gets really thick and hard (using CO2 for trail head top off and not swapping with air when I get home). Otherwise once first batch has formed the skin but still wet feeling I add a bit more sealant and don't touch till I have to pull the tire off. Never notice the weight difference there from new on through. Body adapts to it pretty quick.

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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

big0mike said:


> I wish I could feel the difference an extra 100 grams on my bike makes. I've probably got that much mud on my bike right now...
> 
> And, I'm not trying to make fun of you weight weenies. I'm certain there are people that can feel the difference 100 grams makes, or 1# of extra air in a tire. I can't and I'm guessing 99% of people that own a bike can't. I didn't notice a difference when I upgraded a bunch of components and took my 160mm rig from 36# to 30.5#. Well, I notice the difference when I lift it on my back for a HaB...
> 
> Oh... to be a 1%er!


Mostly cuz its the wheel. 
Only reason I'd go back to RR is yo save some weight.

Not worried about leakage. New sealant will cover.

For the record, I usually leave the sealant in but this specific sealant in this tire is really caked on thick. And I think I didn't dilute with water for this batch.

Also, the texture is different. I can't peel big chunks off like I usually can. 
Maybe it's not completely cured.

Also, I might sell the tire and won't get top valve for it but there's a point where the time investment isn't worth it.

I also can notice a difference but it's more like a fatigue factor. Over time I realize that I'm working harder. 
Right now running race kings and big apple foe gravel events. Had 2.35 ralphs last season which were around 700 so about 100 grams heavier than the racekings then in the winter I run a fat b nimble and dirt wizard and those are definitely noticeable.

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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

I found that just a thick towel is kind of good at scrapping sealant off. 

Also did some hot soapy water, helped but still is a chore. 

One small section tool off 30g's lol. 

Don't know how much the tire actually weighs 


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

So I removed probably a lb of sealant from a couple different tires. 

All had different difficulties of removing sealant. Some flaking off and some coming off in big chunks.

I think a way to improve here is to add some sort of fiber as not a only a chunkulator but a binding agent to keep the sealant glued together when removing. 

I used to add dog hair or laundry lint and this is what was keeping the dried sealant together.
It's kind of like the way carbon fiber works ...

So I think I may try some fiberglass strands... What do you'll think ?


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

Mike, I've been using:
1 part slime
1 part latex
1 part pg
1 part water

However, I would like to remove the slime and add my own chunkulator. 

Question is, do I need more Ammonia because the slime may have some ? 
Should I increase the PG or H2o in absence of the slime? 

Thanks


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Toot3344556 said:


> Mike, I've been using:
> 1 part slime
> 1 part latex
> 1 part pg
> ...


That's a pretty thick mix, using 2 parts water will work better. A half cup of ammonia won't hurt, might help it last longer. I think the slime is a wash as far as thickness, just leave it out.


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

bsieb said:


> That's a pretty thick mix, using 2 parts water will work better. A half cup of ammonia won't hurt, might help it last longer. I think the slime is a wash as far as thickness, just leave it out.


Thanks, one less thing to buy too. 
Im going try some carbon fiber strands.

Im thinking like a half inch size... too small too big ?

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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Toot3344556 said:


> Thanks, one less thing to buy too.
> Im going try some carbon fiber strands.
> 
> Im thinking like a half inch size... too small too big ?
> ...


They need to be small enough to stay in suspension on the sidewalls... so they can stop those 1/4" cuts.  Plain latex without any chunks or fibers will seal a lot too.


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

bsieb said:


> They need to be small enough to stay in suspension on the sidewalls... so they can stop those 1/4" cuts.  Plain latex without any chunks or fibers will seal a lot too.


I want the fiber for the removal aspect... It will use the latex like glue and be easier to pull off after dried while also doubling as a chunkulator.

Do you have any issues removing a more diluted solution?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Toot3344556 said:


> I want the fiber for the removal aspect... It will use the latex like glue and be easier to pull off after dried while also doubling as a chunkulator.
> 
> Do you have any issues removing a more diluted solution?


There is nothing to remove, if nothing ever dries out. Seriously, I just ride the tires until they wear out, any buildup is too thin to bother with. I pull the bead back once a month to check sealant levels and top off if necessary, I like to maintain a ~6" long puddle in the bottom, pour it in right out of the jug. Never any surprises this way, until you get a big side wall cut... my most recent was a pair of cuts about 1" long, in a brand new Ikon TR, of course. Took a dollar bill and a tube.


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## Vallecino (Apr 25, 2017)

I'm a noobie doing the conversion to tubeless using the last iteration on WSS formula. Never tried tubeless before. I'm using WTB Moto raptor tires 2.24, on the alexrims DM18. 
Started with rear wheel, using 20" tube ghetto style. Very difficult to inflate, finally got a 2gallon compressor with 0.2 scfm and a rope pressing the tire to the rim. It inflated but very soon flat again because big holes on the tire and near the bead. I patched them with normal tube patch and after repeated the process with the rope I got it. 2 days flipping it over in the morning and at night. It still bleeds but it is retaining the air pressure very well.

After what I considered a success on my rear tire I got the gorilla tape and tubeless valve from eBay to convert the front wheel. But despite the tire looks in much better condition than the rear one, I am not able to seat the beads well. I used the rope like on the rear, but the tire looks more loose on the rim now that I am using gorilla tape instead of the 20" tire. I got the help of my wife and kid to push the tire to the rim, even I borrow a bigger compressor from a friend with 10 gallons and 5 scfm, and still no success. Wrapped the tire with food plastic and as my wife suggested and still couldn't inflate it. My last try is to put a tube inside having the solution still on the tire then brushed the beads with the solution and finally after inflated I applied clear silicone on one side of the tire and rim. My plan is tomorrow to separate the opposite side, take out the tube install the valve and try again to inflate it. If no luck I will purchase a 20" tube and do it like the rear wheel.









Update: finally the 20" tube ghetto style did the trick 








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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Best thing is to go for a ride, even around the block a few times, keeps the sealant distributed so everything can seal up. Once the tires have been for a ride or two, you can break the beads and they will go back easily with a floor pump. Also starting with old tires can be difficult because the beads may be deformed (stretched) if they have been inflated higher than ~35 psi. If you use threaded valve stems they can be tightened down with the nut to seal them. Rock on... it's all about trying stuff.


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

Nothing to pull of my ass !

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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Yeah, that's your mix, not mine. Mine doesn't do that. Sorry about your ass...


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

bsieb said:


> ^Yeah, that's your mix, not mine. Mine doesn't do that. Sorry about your ass...


No biggie, my arse is fine. Lol, my biggest problem is I swap tires a lot and sometimes I neglect removing (still wet sealant).

So let's work on my horrible mixture.

Based off your rec. above:

1 part latex
1 part PG 
2 part water 
1/2 part ammonia

Look good to you ?

When you say Top off? do you mean with more sealant or with Ammonia?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I think it would be a good place to start. 

I top off with more sealant, keep the puddle about 6" long. When you pour in the initial 2 ozs. make note of the puddle size.

Isn't any minimal buildup offset by tire wear, so the weight would stay the same?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> Seriously, I just ride the tires until they wear out, any buildup is too thin to bother with.


That's been my experience as well.



bsieb said:


> ^Best thing is to go for a ride, even around the block a few times, keeps the sealant distributed so everything can seal up. Once the tires have been for a ride or two, you can break the beads and they will go back easily with a floor pump.


A buddy told me about this and it works pretty well: Take an old rim, put a tube and a new tire on, and pump it up to ~40# Let it sit for a day or two or a week and it helps form the tire and bead into the shape it's supposed to be in instead of folded up on a shelf.

It's also a good trick for putting on tape and making sure it's all stuck to the rim.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

BOM- Good idea, but I would be careful about going much over 25 psi on that pre-seating because it can stretch the bead and make it looser, since I only run 20 psi normally.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> BOM- Good idea, but I would be careful about going much over 25 psi on that pre-seating because it can stretch the bead and make it looser, since I only run 20 psi normally.


With the weak-ass EXO casings on my DHFs I can't run less than about 27# or I'd be buying new wheels every year. When I ran the heavier UST tires I could do 22#...

Realistically, I probably pump it up to 30# or 32#. Just harder than "normal" for me.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Yes, just common sense. I'm using Ikon 2.35 TR, beefy sidewalls. I buy the HEaviest ones on the rack...


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Any recommendations on formula or ratio for weather where temperature is around 104F?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Same same. Check every few weeks/monthly for evaporative shrinkage, top off. Beats walking home in the heat...


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

So I got a sidewall cut right above the bead. 
My home-brew will seal it but when I ride it moves around and ends up breaking the seal. 

The tire also ... slighty bulges at this point. Not much but slightly.

What are my options here? 

Sew plus patch? Or Add more chunkulators? 
Anyone have this? 

I'd like to at least make the tire useable for some abuse on the road... and by abuse I mean just road miles....


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

If its a small cut, l just plug it, and patch it from inside.
If it's a big cut, sew it and patch it.
I have done some plugs and patches on sidewalls slaches and they last until the tire die of old age.


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## Toot3344556 (Apr 25, 2016)

Aglo said:


> If its a small cut, l just plug it, and patch it from inside.
> If it's a big cut, sew it and patch it.
> I have done some plugs and patches on sidewalls slaches and they last until the tire die of old age.


Awesome ! Thanks, Just wanted to make sure it wasn't a pipe-dream.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok. What does everyone think the "XL" crystals in Stan's Race formula are? My BAMFS is basically this...i use more cornmeal than I think is in regular Stan's by the looks of it.

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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Less we not forget...http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6782931.html

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## chet wright (Oct 30, 2005)

I've been using the slime/amm/latex/af/cornmeal in tubes. I eventually dropped the cornmeal, as it just clogged the injector even on a schrader valve.
I rarely keep these bikes longer than a week, and add sealant before sending bike out.
Today, I found one flat. It had a small on the rim side of the tube. It spat sealant, but wouldn't seal. (This was with the tube out). I replaced the sealant with Stan's, it wouldn't seal either.
This has led me to question whether the mix is working, or is the cornmeal necessary, or does it need constant sealant as it would get in the out circumference of the tube, where a puncture would normally occur? Any thoughts, on tube sealing?


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## MattMay (Dec 24, 2013)

Peaty's got a new brew: https://m.pinkbike.com/news/peatys-tubeless-sealant-2017.html


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## yourdaguy (Dec 20, 2008)

The way the sealant works is the shear forces as it blows out of a tire caues the the latex to solidify. I can't immagine getting enough pressure in a tube that is out of a tire to do the job


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## HEMIjer (Jul 17, 2008)

Anyone using the new Slime STR and actually had a puncture with it? 

Couple advertised things I like about it:
- Supposed to be able to mix with latex based sealant if needed
- higher lower temperature range (in case levae bike in car on hot day or something)
- General longer lasting not supposed to dry up over time.

Just looking for experiences and thoughts.

thanks


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I just use automotive slime in my mix. It's cheap.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

HEMIjer said:


> Anyone using the new Slime STR and actually had a puncture with it?
> 
> Couple advertised things I like about it:
> - Supposed to be able to mix with latex based sealant if needed
> ...


Yes, I have a few gallons of the stuff. At this point, I'd stay away from it. There are several things going on with this new sealant formula from Slime, both good and really bad.

First the bad - the fibers that they've used as a plugging medium absolutely do not work. First off, if you have the big jug with the pump, the fibers clump and clog it up immediately rendering it useless, regardless of how much you shake it up to get the massive amount of fibers suspended in solution. Second, the rotation of the bike wheel causes the fibers to clump into really tight little pellets of felt, and the more they roll, the tighter they get, never again to float in suspension and seal punctures. So, once this happens, all that's left is the liquid sealant. See the felt pellets below.








The good - I really think they're on to something with the liquid component of this sealant. It stays liquid and fluid for way, way longer than any Stan's or homebrew stan's clones I've used or made. Additionally, to date, there are no negative issues with the liquid solidifying out and making "Stanimals" due to CO2 or evap. The liquid component appears to do what I want it to, and even worked pretty good on sealing up some very porous sidewalls on a non tubeless Schwalbe Hans Dampf. Unfortunately, these Schwalbe's sidewalls were too thin and porous for ANY sealant to fix them permanently, so I had to abandon that project. I've since set up several Maxxis + and Schwalbe Jumbo Jim fatties and other tubeless ready tires without any issue whatsoever, NO air loss at all.

I filtered out all the fibers through a paint strainer from the first gallon I got - resulted in a tight wad of paper like fibers about the size of a baseball - way too much stuff. I'm currently working on replacing these fibers with a different plugging media. Cornmeal, unlike in Stan's clones, does not swell up and get sticky, it stays like sand and sinks out - so that's not an option. I've got a small batch going with some finely chopped feather fibers, and these seem to be staying in suspension and not settling out, but also don't appear to be clumping, so I think I'm on to something. Glitter just sinks, pepper might be worth looking into. Anyone know where to get fine rubber crumb?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

watermonkey said:


> Anyone know where to get fine rubber crumb?


https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=rubber+crumb


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

I've been meaning to try this for years... got out all the ingredients on my kitchen table, opened up my latex mold builder I bought in 2015  and it was the consistency of cheese spread, sort of solid and kind of sticking together. I assume it's shot? I've never opened it before and imagined it would be more like , I dunno, salad dressing. Like it would pour.

I can't _remember _ever having opened it before but I must have, the seal was peeled off.

Same as this stuff
https://www.amazon.com/Builder-Liquid-Latex-Rubber-473ml/dp/B001E1XBLO


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Odd... my last batch separates in the jug. I don't seem to remember this happening previously...

28 oz PG
28 oz RO water
8 oz ammonia
Mix well
Small handful of hair
1 tabelspoon corn meal
1 teaspoon xantham gum
Mix well
16 oz mold builder
Mix well


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Ace5high said:


> couple of my observations I will add to this for you guys. First the type of caulk. I actually selected 3 different types of caulk. 1 was the common acrylic latex plus silicone caulk. Next was a 50/50 silicone/latex and the last was just labeled "white Latex".
> 
> I did a few experiments with them to test setting speed before I mixed anything. I found that as I went from Latex toward the silicone I went from quick setting to slow setting. Also, one other thing that made me select the cheap "White latex" was the weight. The Latex only caulk was significantly heavier than the other caulks, Had a weight similar to that of the mold builder...


Anybody know how to identify just "white latex" caulking at Home Depot without Silicone or Acrylic?

SDS for DAP Model # 18542 Alex Flex 10.1 oz. White Premium Molding and Trim Sealant It's mostly Limestone, with small amount of petroleum dissolates, diethelyne gylcol dibenzoate and monobenzoate, titanium dioxide, parofinnic solvent, and quartz.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

big0mike said:


> Odd... my last batch separates in the jug. I don't seem to remember this happening previously...
> 
> 28 oz PG
> 28 oz RO water
> ...


That's how WSS looks too, just shake.


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## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

Just picked up a new container at Wally World for a few bucks. Called a Rubbermaid MixerMate (1 gal). Seals really well, pop-up pour top, and mouth wide enough to fit a drill mixer into. I'm In case anyone was Looking for a different container.









Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


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## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

Darth Lefty said:


> I've been meaning to try this for years... got out all the ingredients on my kitchen table, opened up my latex mold builder I bought in 2015  and it was the consistency of cheese spread, sort of solid and kind of sticking together. I assume it's shot? I've never opened it before and imagined it would be more like , I dunno, salad dressing. Like it would pour.
> 
> I can't _remember _ever having opened it before but I must have, the seal was peeled off.
> 
> ...


Its probably shot. New stuff pours but its really thick.

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

Wondering, how does Xanthan gum helps? what are the pros and cons of using this?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> big0mike said:
> 
> 
> > Odd... my last batch separates in the jug. I don't seem to remember this happening previously...
> ...


I know you can shake it to return to normal. I just didn't recall any version of BAMFS, OSS, or any other "Stan's Clone" that separated. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention...



Neogen said:


> Wondering, how does Xanthan gum helps? what are the pros and cons of using this?


Xantham Gum is an emulsifier. It keeps all the chunkulators suspended in the mix instead of sinking to the bottom where they can sometimes tend to "seal" to the tire itself before they can plug a hole.

PROS: It keeps the mix... uh... mixed 

CONS: In some instances it has been shown to cause or increase the instances or size of boogers.
Myself, I found that XG and rubber chunk as a chunkulator caused boogers. Another person did not see the same results. My results using dog hair and corn meal with XG has not shown any increased boogering.


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

big0mike said:


> I know you can shake it to return to normal. I just didn't recall any version of BAMFS, OSS, or any other "Stan's Clone" that separated. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention...
> 
> Xantham Gum is an emulsifier. It keeps all the chunkulators suspended in the mix instead of sinking to the bottom where they can sometimes tend to "seal" to the tire itself before they can plug a hole.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot.. I have had a bad experience of using rubber crumbs as chunkulator - splitting and boogers. Thinking to use XG and see if it helps. In theory, rubber crumbs seems to be a good choice. Let me give a try.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

Neogen said:


> Thanks a lot.. I have had a bad experience of using rubber crumbs as chunkulator - splitting and boogers. Thinking to use XG and see if it helps. In theory, rubber crumbs seems to be a good choice. Let me give a try.


Short version of why rubber crumbs isn't a good idea: when you cut/grind the rubber, the exposed surfaced is chemically active and induces the latex polymerization.
Mini version: it causes boogers .


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## ceugene (May 17, 2017)

watermonkey said:


> Yes, I have a few gallons of the stuff. At this point, I'd stay away from it. There are several things going on with this new sealant formula from Slime, both good and really bad.
> 
> First the bad - the fibers that they've used as a plugging medium absolutely do not work. First off, if you have the big jug with the pump, the fibers clump and clog it up immediately rendering it useless, regardless of how much you shake it up to get the massive amount of fibers suspended in solution. Second, the rotation of the bike wheel causes the fibers to clump into really tight little pellets of felt, and the more they roll, the tighter they get, never again to float in suspension and seal punctures. So, once this happens, all that's left is the liquid sealant.


I've begun testing this sealant. I experienced clogging through the applicator end of an 8oz bottle within seconds...lol. Haven't checked for clumps yet, though ultimately it shouldn't be a huge issue. If the artificial latex solution stays fluid longer, then this is a big win for me, especially since I run tubeless road too at high PSI.

Orange Seal is the only commercial sealant I've trusted on my road bike for a while because using only 1-1.5oz of other sealants means they dry out really quickly. Orange Seal generally lasts 3-4 months before it dries out, and that's about how quickly I go through tires anyway.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

MTBeing said:


> Just picked up a new container at Wally World for a few bucks. Called a Rubbermaid MixerMate (1 gal). Seals really well, pop-up pour top, and mouth wide enough to fit a drill mixer into. I'm In case anyone was Looking for a different container.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yes, that's the jug I use as well. I also got the smaller one (3 qt) because it fit a 5-part-of-pints mix w/o a lot of airspace. With different recipes, that's not as useful.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

big0mike said:


> Odd... my last batch separates in the jug. I don't seem to remember this happening previously...
> 
> 28 oz PG
> 28 oz RO water
> ...


You might want to check the mix carefully. I got one that looked like that, and a lot of the latex had polymerized into strings. Maybe not, but worth a check. That batch did not work very well and had to be dumped.


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## tekhna (Oct 5, 2008)

I'm sure someone asks this every couple pages, but is there a current "best" recipe that's popular?


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> You might want to check the mix carefully. I got one that looked like that, and a lot of the latex had polymerized into strings. Maybe not, but worth a check. That batch did not work very well and had to be dumped.


I'll have to keep an eye on it. The latex looked perfectly fresh and I didn't use the aluminum paint can this time...


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## Darth Lefty (Sep 29, 2014)

MTBeing said:


> Its probably shot. New stuff pours but its really thick.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


Thanks


----------



## ThrottleAbuse (Jul 2, 2010)

Has anyone tried this stuff? I am giving it a try. I had a front that had orange seal in it and it had dried out so I added some of this. Two days later and its down to about 5 psi.

Tire Sealant Super Sauce

I also tried it in some new road bike tires and am having trouble getting it to seal. Goes completely flat after a few hours. I am also trying kapton tape for the first time on the road wheels. Not sure which is failing me.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Any thoughts on sealing a stubborn valve stem?

I went to refill my sealant a week ago. Popped the bead, poured more in, sealed up just fine. Rode the next morning and then the following morning the tire is nearly flat.

3 or 4 times a day I've been sloshing it around and turning it upside to get the sealant to stay around the stem briefly but it won't hold air overnight.


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## ljracer (Nov 6, 2009)

big0mike said:


> Any thoughts on sealing a stubborn valve stem?
> 
> I went to refill my sealant a week ago. Popped the bead, poured more in, sealed up just fine. Rode the next morning and then the following morning the tire is nearly flat.
> 
> 3 or 4 times a day I've been sloshing it around and turning it upside to get the sealant to stay around the stem briefly but it won't hold air overnight.


I have used rtv sealant or a little silicone. Whatever is handy by the base of the valve on inside of rim. Works a treat.


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## ceugene (May 17, 2017)

Add a strip of tape in that area. Which valve stems are you using?


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

big0mike said:


> Any thoughts on sealing a stubborn valve stem?
> 
> I went to refill my sealant a week ago. Popped the bead, poured more in, sealed up just fine. Rode the next morning and then the following morning the tire is nearly flat.
> 
> 3 or 4 times a day I've been sloshing it around and turning it upside to get the sealant to stay around the stem briefly but it won't hold air overnight.


I've had success cutting a tube into an "o-ring" that I slipped over the valve before installing.


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## fishwrinkle (Jul 11, 2012)

^this


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## jimPacNW (Feb 26, 2013)

ljracer said:


> I have used rtv sealant or a little silicone. Whatever is handy by the base of the valve on inside of rim. Works a treat.


I do exactly this, and either works great.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

ljracer said:


> I have used rtv sealant or a little silicone. Whatever is handy by the base of the valve on inside of rim. Works a treat.





ceugene said:


> Add a strip of tape in that area. Which valve stems are you using?





s0ckeyeus said:


> I've had success cutting a tube into an "o-ring" that I slipped over the valve before installing.


I fought with it a few more shake 'n' roll sessions and said F it. Opened up the tire to try to get some sealant under the rubber gasket of the Stan's stem. When I did I noticed where I pulled the tire off the tape had been squished from the rim wall down towards the center channel a couple mms. As I'm pulling the tire off I notice a couple more spots like that as well. I think, "hmmm... maybe I should think about retaping it?"

I get to the valve stem and the tape had been squished all the way down into the center channel smashed up against the valve stem.

"Yep, time to retape it."

Pulled off the old tape, stuck a new layer of yellow on and everything sealed up immediately.

I'd seen my tape jobs come off after many tire changes in the past but not as jacked as this one had and that's only the second tire I've had on this particular rim.


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## RubeRad (Jul 1, 2013)

Finally took the plunge. Made a stripped down version of BAMFS v3.0 (perhaps BAMFS v1.0?)

latex mold builder from Michael's, 40% off + tax --> $11 something for a little under 500ml. That's 1 part.

After dumping that in the mix bucket and scraping as much out as possible, use that container to measure out additional parts:

2 parts distilled water (30c for a gallon, I used less than 1l), mix with paint-mixer on a drill.

2 parts cheap yellow EG antifreeze (O'Reilly's house brand, had it laying around)

~1/3 part ammonio ('lemon-scented', from under the kitchen sink)

No XG because it was $12.99/8oz!! Woulda got 'a pinch' if it was available in a bulk bin, but if others say it can be left out, at that price I'm leaving it out. If a rich uncle does someday and leaves me some XG I'll mix it in. Right now the sealant is a little thicker than milk.

Forgot to add cornmeal. I would add that to the tire rather than the whole mix. But oh well.

WTB i19 TCS rims. Gorilla tape (black) for sealant. Rear tire Maxxis Ardent 2.4, not marked TR but bought it used and it had sealant residue in it. Sealed up like a champ. Front tire Kenda smallblock 8 (folding, John Tomac edition), not marked TR either. That one didn't seal up first try because I was sloppy with my rim tape. Took it all apart, stripped it out cleaned it up, wiped it all down with rubbing alcohol, let it dry good, re-taped more carefully, and got it to seal. Rode around the cul-de-sac a bit, they seem fine, won't be able to take them on the trail until Sat.

For under $12, I have half a gallon of sealant.

I have all these nice little plastic needle-tip bottles, they're from Jersey Mike's for oil&vinegar for catering orders that we had at work once. I filled up a couple, wrapped the top with 3 layers of saran, then screwed the top on tight. I can bring in my seatbag in case trailside sealant is needed. Will give one to a friend who helped me out with sealant before.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

So glad BAMFS is still changing the world...just my little gift to humanity! I don't think the XG does much but I usually add a pinch b/c I got some on Amazon that lasts forever. Also, you need the cornmeal...its the key. I add it to my bottle and just make sure I shake and let it settle to the tip when I invert it (hold my finger over the nozzle) before squirting in my scooper. #BAMFS4lyfebitches


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## RubeRad (Jul 1, 2013)

I guess I should crack the bead and spoon some cornmeal in then. If I put it in the mix I'm sure it would clog my little jersey-mike squeeze bottles, the noozle is pretty tiny, you can stick it securely into the valve to inject sealant.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

TiGeo said:


> So glad BAMFS is still changing the world...just my little gift to humanity! I don't think the XG does much but I usually add a pinch b/c I got some on Amazon that lasts forever. Also, you need the cornmeal...its the key. I add it to my bottle and just make sure I shake and let it settle to the tip when I invert it (hold my finger over the nozzle) before squirting in my scooper. #BAMFS4lyfebitches


which part of bmfs is your brain child? (besides the name). I thought this was a group effort.


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

big0mike said:


> I fought with it a few more shake 'n' roll sessions and said F it. Opened up the tire to try to get some sealant under the rubber gasket of the Stan's stem. When I did I noticed where I pulled the tire off the tape had been squished from the rim wall down towards the center channel a couple mms. As I'm pulling the tire off I notice a couple more spots like that as well. I think, "hmmm... maybe I should think about retaping it?"
> 
> I get to the valve stem and the tape had been squished all the way down into the center channel smashed up against the valve stem.
> 
> ...


Did you put a tube in at 40psi at least overnight after taping it? That usually presses it in place pretty securely, easier than going back and trying to seal up tape that is failing.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

ElwoodT said:


> which part of bmfs is your brain child? (besides the name). I thought this was a group effort.


While homebrew science here is collective scrolling back through I was the one that took the Stan's patent info and figured out the bits creating my BAMFS formula (s). 2 parts water 2 parts PG 0.3 parts ammonia 1 part latex 1 tbs cornmeal.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^If you say so...seems like these ingriedients were around in the oss versions...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

As I said...some collective on ingredients for sure but the proportions are key and cornmeal...well...there's that.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

Steve-S said:


> View attachment 841805
> View attachment 841806
> 
> This is coarse yellow cornmeal. 1mm drill bit in view for reference.


this dude brought cornmeal to the table...


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## RubeRad (Jul 1, 2013)

Guys, guys, quit fighting! I love you all the same!


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

I apoligize (Ti), suppose claiming it was "your gift to the world" irked me, you have done a lot for this thread, thanks.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

https://www.amazon.com/Water-Beads-...37921&sr=1-3-spons&keywords=water+beads&psc=1
Water beads - these may be the best solution I've found yet for a hole plugging media. Hydrate them completely, crush a half dozen or so of them up in a ziplock bag, and add to your tire with fresh sealant. At first, the granules are somewhat delicate, but as your sealant dries out and some of the water content from the beads moves into solution, the water bead granules become denser and stronger, more like chewy snot globs. There's also a large variety in particle size when you smash them. So far these seem to be performing as hoped in both a Stan's clone and the Slime STR (as a replacement for all the fibers I filtered out).


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Start on page 248 (I am pretty sure that is it). The older separate thread regarding corneal as a possible Stan's crystal and the one that got me started can be found here.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=714978

Up until that point in this amazing thread the primary recipes were not based on the proportions in the old Stan's patent or utilizing cornmeal that I can find. BAMFS has been modified by others since then which is great but I would argue this (Stan's clones with cornmeal) was a big step forward in the recipes and research that propagated in the thread beyond page 248 based on my posts and that was the point I was trying to comically make (apparently not funny to everyone) when I saw the BAMFS name being used recently which gave me a smile. This thread and the folks in it are homebrew rockstars and I give homage to them for the great work that has been done. #BAMFS4lyfe

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Jayem said:


> Did you put a tube in at 40psi at least overnight after taping it? That usually presses it in place pretty securely, easier than going back and trying to seal up tape that is failing.


I normally do that but was itching to ride the next morning and didn't feel like getting up at 4:30a only to have to fight with a tire to seal. I wanted to go to bed knowing it was sealed. I did it to the original tape job but replacing tires multiple times seems to wreak havoc.



watermonkey said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Water-Beads-...37921&sr=1-3-spons&keywords=water+beads&psc=1
> Water beads - these may be the best solution I've found yet for a hole plugging media. Hydrate them completely, crush a half dozen or so of them up in a ziplock bag, and add to your tire with fresh sealant. At first, the granules are somewhat delicate, but as your sealant dries out and some of the water content from the beads moves into solution, the water bead granules become denser and stronger, more like chewy snot globs. There's also a large variety in particle size when you smash them. So far these seem to be performing as hoped in both a Stan's clone and the Slime STR (as a replacement for all the fibers I filtered out).


Interesting find. May have to try these!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Anyone looked at what the larger crystals in the Stan's race formula might be? What about adding rice or oatmeal along with the cornmeal to get a variety of sizes? Thoughts? What about Orange Seal...has anyone taken a look at what may be in it?


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## RubeRad (Jul 1, 2013)

RubeRad said:


> Finally took the plunge. Made a stripped down version of BAMFS v3.0 (perhaps BAMFS v1.0?)


Went on a ride yesterday, noticed today I had 3 goatheads in my front tire (none in the rear). I pulled one, FSSSS of course, and then spun the wheel, spun the wheel, spun the wheel, it just sprayed. Interesting pattern of sounds; pure air when the hole is up, sputtering on either side as sealant is dripping downhill across the hole, then a brief silence as the hole rolls under the puddle of sealant.

I left it to try to seal with hole about 8:00. A few hours later, came back and tire was essentially flat (like 1psi). I pumped it up though and it is holding. Will check again tomorrow morning, and if it's still holding, I'll pull out the other two and spin for a bit, let it go flat and dry out over the day and pump it up when I get home from work.

I think I need to get that cornmeal in there...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

So no cornmeal? What was your mixture? Yes...you need the bits to make this stuff work.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## RubeRad (Jul 1, 2013)

> So no cornmeal? What was your mixture? Yes...you need the bits to make this stuff work.


It was:



> latex mold builder from Michael's, 40% off + tax --> $11 something for a little under 500ml. That's 1 part.
> 
> 2 parts distilled water (30c for a gallon, I used less than 1l), mix with paint-mixer on a drill.
> 
> ...


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok, so basically BAMFS but with anti-freeze instead of PG. I assume you just forgot to include the latex? You really need the cornmeal as a chunkulator to get the holes blocked and slow down the air to allow the latex to work. I don't think the XG really does much but I use a pinch anyway...agree, not necessary and have used plenty of this stuff without it and it has always worked fine. I think the XG may just help keep the stuff in suspension but I'm not sure if anyone has done the work to suggest what volume to use anyway, it's more "for fun" than anything else IMHO and believe at one point it was blamed as the cause of massive boogers but that was resolved as being from the rubber crumb be used.


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## RubeRad (Jul 1, 2013)

Sorry I misquoted myself, latex mold builder was 1 part, the first into the bucket.

I plan on cracking the front and rear seals, just a couple inches each, just enough to funnel some cornmeal into each tire. What's the recommended amount of cornmeal? I'm thinking 1 TBSP per tire.

I was also thinking about chia seeds; they expand when soaked. Maybe running them through a spice grinder first.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

I have been running the old latex, auto Slime, RV anti-freeze, and ammonia mix. I have everything left from my last batch except for the latex (of course) and Slime. I'm not looking to experiment, but what should I try next? Or should I stick to the same formula?


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## RubeRad (Jul 1, 2013)

My opinion, try a recipe without Slime. What's the point of homebrew sealant, if one of the ingredients is store-bought sealant?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

RubeRad said:


> Went on a ride yesterday, noticed today I had 3 goatheads in my front tire (none in the rear). I pulled one, FSSSS of course, and then spun the wheel, spun the wheel, spun the wheel, it just sprayed. Interesting pattern of sounds; pure air when the hole is up, sputtering on either side as sealant is dripping downhill across the hole, then a brief silence as the hole rolls under the puddle of sealant.


Never pull the thorns, tempting as it is! When I replaced a worn out tire, there were dozens of thorns showing on the inside, but no major leaks, just need about 3-5 psi top up each week.


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## RubeRad (Jul 1, 2013)

Lol if you don't pull the thorns, then eventually you have a tire with tread made of thorns!

But definitely don't pull them during the ride!

Are you saying the heads of the thorns all eventually break off, leaving the 'nail' still in, no problem?


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

RubeRad said:


> My opinion, try a recipe without Slime. What's the point of homebrew sealant, if one of the ingredients is store-bought sealant?


I don't care too much about being a purist, but not using Slime would save extra money. Plus, sometimes I feel like the Slime fouls things up a bit.


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

RubeRad said:


> Lol if you don't pull the thorns, then eventually you have a tire with tread made of thorns!
> 
> But definitely don't pull them during the ride!
> 
> Are you saying the heads of the thorns all eventually break off, leaving the 'nail' still in, no problem?


Precisely!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I use 1 tbsp of cornmeal per batch so 1 per tire is a HUGE amount. Probably a tsp per tire.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

The formulas with Slime caused excessive weeping for me but seemed to work fine.


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## RubeRad (Jul 1, 2013)

TiGeo said:


> I use 1 tbsp of cornmeal per batch so 1 per tire is a HUGE amount. Probably a tsp per tire.


Wow, how much is a batch for you? I have about half a gallon.

Also note: 1tbsp = 3tsp


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

TiGeo said:


> The formulas with Slime caused excessive weeping for me but seemed to work fine.


All formulas leak with thin sidewalls, I have not noticed any lately. The slime mixes work a lot better than stans and clones, in my experience. Some are more interested in performance than being a purist. Try WSS if you have not, it's a lot more effective. Faster, seals bigger holes, lasts longer. ymmv...


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

^^x2!


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

My Slime mix has worked well until recently when it's all been gloopy and boogerish. Maybe it's getting old.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

s0ckeyeus said:


> My Slime mix has worked well until recently when it's all been gloopy and boogerish. Maybe it's getting old.


What is your mix? Several small batches or one big batch?


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

bsieb said:


> What is your mix? Several small batches or one big batch?


I made one big batch to use up all the Mold Builder. Looking back through the annals of the interwebz, this is what I made last time: 1 pt latex, 1 pt Slime, 2 pt RV AF, 1 pt water, and some Ammonia. It looks like I might have made this in like 2014 or 2015, which means my sealant is a lot older than I thought it was.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

s0ckeyeus said:


> I made one big batch to use up all the Mold Builder. Looking back through the annals of the interwebz, this is what I made last time: 1 pt latex, 1 pt Slime, 2 pt RV AF, 1 pt water, and some Ammonia. It looks like I might have made this in like 2014 or 2015, which means my sealant is a lot older than I thought it was.


The RV AF may contain some other ingredients that affected the life of the mix. I have mix that has lasted 2 years before being used up, but I think you have the record if made in 2014.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I only make a small batch at a time to reduce the issues surrounding shelf life. I agree that WSS/slime brews work great, I never got a flat with them and they always seemed to last at least as long as Stan's or the clones/whatever you call your brew. I just haven't had any sealant, store-bought or homemade that lasts more than a couple of mos. in a tire using 4 oz (2 red Stan's scoopers) in a tire. "Last" to me mean sufficient free-flowing sealant to actually work. Mine last longer in the cooler/colder months and shorter in the hot mos. Longevity just isn't that critical to me now as I can just add when needed and since I make it, it's not breaking the bank. But sure, if I could add a sealant that lasted a year without replenishing, that would be great too!


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

TiGeo said:


> I only make a small batch at a time to reduce the issues surrounding shelf life. I agree that WSS/slime brews work great, I never got a flat with them and they always seemed to last at least as long as Stan's or the clones/whatever you call your brew. I just haven't had any sealant, store-bought or homemade that lasts more than a couple of mos. in a tire using 4 oz (2 red Stan's scoopers) in a tire. "Last" to me mean sufficient free-flowing sealant to actually work. Mine last longer in the cooler/colder months and shorter in the hot mos. Longevity just isn't that critical to me now as I can just add when needed and since I make it, it's not breaking the bank. But sure, if I could add a sealant that lasted a year without replenishing, that would be great too!


I made a big batch because the last time I did a smaller batch, my Mold Builder dried up and went to waste. I just didn't realize my current brew was that old. I used to only have one wheel that was tubeless (warranty replacement rear wheel, never felt like messing with the front wheel) and went through sealant slowly. Now I have two plus tires, so I go through sealant faster.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

TiGeo said:


> I only make a small batch at a time to reduce the issues surrounding shelf life. I agree that WSS/slime brews work great, I never got a flat with them and they always seemed to last at least as long as Stan's or the clones/whatever you call your brew. I just haven't had any sealant, store-bought or homemade that lasts more than a couple of mos. in a tire using 4 oz (2 red Stan's scoopers) in a tire. "Last" to me mean sufficient free-flowing sealant to actually work. Mine last longer in the cooler/colder months and shorter in the hot mos. Longevity just isn't that critical to me now as I can just add when needed and since I make it, it's not breaking the bank. But sure, if I could add a sealant that lasted a year without replenishing, that would be great too!


I think we are talking shelf life here, but the sealant will last a year in a tubeless ust tire too, as reported by a friend. Sealant life is more about the tire, the more airtight the container or tire, the longer the life. All tires get more porous as the sidewalls flex to, so I have found, as have you, that checking the sealant level regularly and topping it off as needed, is the most reliable method of avoiding flats. Beyond that, does it really matter if you top off a little more or less? I think it has been shown that purity of ingredients is also a factor, but again, as long as the sealant is functional, who cares? I typically run 2 oz. of WSS in my 2.4 29er tires, and it lasts a couple months at least, but again, top off at least monthly because I don't want to run dry, carry sealant, put in a tube, or whatever happens when a tire runs dry. I just break ~6" of bead on one side and pour it in direct until the puddle is 6" or so long. Airs right up again with a floor pump, nothing difficult, as you say.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

s0ckeyeus said:


> I made one big batch to use up all the Mold Builder. Looking back through the annals of the interwebz, this is what I made last time: 1 pt latex, 1 pt Slime, 2 pt RV AF, 1 pt water, and some Ammonia. It looks like I might have made this in like 2014 or 2015, which means my sealant is a lot older than I thought it was.


Just a side note...

I use Slime as a base as it can be had very cheap from Wally World when on sale.

Since the Slime already contains a fair amount of PG (I think) I only do 1 pt PG to 1pt Slime, 1 pt latex, 2 pt water. Ammonia and cornmeal.

Been using this a long time (well, the corn meal is relatively new) on lots of tires and it has always worked super well, and lasts a long time.


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## OregonXC (Sep 1, 2004)

Why is this thread not in the wheels and tires forum?


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## slocaus (Jul 21, 2005)

edit - don't feed the trolls :nono:


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## OregonXC (Sep 1, 2004)

Does now


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

big0mike said:


> watermonkey said:
> 
> 
> > https://www.amazon.com/Water-Beads-...37921&sr=1-3-spons&keywords=water+beads&psc=1
> ...


So I just got a bag of these last night. Rereading this you HYDRATE them FIRST and then crush them?

I'm wondering what happens if your sealant runs dry and you forget or don't even know to refill them? I do this all the time...  I guess they'll turn back into marbles and start rolling around in the tire?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

bsieb said:


> I think we are talking shelf life here, but the sealant will last a year in a tubeless ust tire too, as reported by a friend. Sealant life is more about the tire, the more airtight the container or tire, the longer the life. All tires get more porous as the sidewalls flex to, so I have found, as have you, that checking the sealant level regularly and topping it off as needed, is the most reliable method of avoiding flats. Beyond that, does it really matter if you top off a little more or less? I think it has been shown that purity of ingredients is also a factor, but again, as long as the sealant is functional, who cares? I typically run 2 oz. of WSS in my 2.4 29er tires, and it lasts a couple months at least, but again, top off at least monthly because I don't want to run dry, carry sealant, put in a tube, or whatever happens when a tire runs dry. I just break ~6" of bead on one side and pour it in direct until the puddle is 6" or so long. Airs right up again with a floor pump, nothing difficult, as you say.


I agree 100% regarding the air-tightness of the tires....when they are new, sealant lasts the longest and drops off as they wear. The sidewalls definitely get more porous/show the threads over time as the tire (especially with all of us running relatively low pressures) allow it to really bend/fold/mold to the trail. I typically saw the weeping with WSS increase when this happened which makes sense.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^No weeping with the better ingredients, not as much as stans, at least. I haven't used your stans clone, however.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I never do/have got weeping with Stan's or my clones....the only weeping I ever got was with WSS and I blame the Slime.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

I get weeping with Stans


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Maybe the green color of WSS makes its more noticeable.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

You know, I didn't notice it so much when I lived back east. Now I am at 9300 feet. It's drier here, air-wise. 

I wonder if this has anything to do with it?


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^I always figured it was the cheap green antifreeze that caused the visible weeping. It didn't evaporate as quick so it lasted longer but was more visible, of course, and especially if the bike wasn't used a lot. With the use of food grade PG instead of antifreeze it pretty much disappeared, in my observation.

edit: I should add that I mix a big batch or two a year for our mtb clubhouse, and have been for quite a few years now.


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## jochribs (Nov 12, 2009)

Interesting. I don't have any experience with anything other than Stans, and I'm noticing it on all three of my families bikes now. None are really sitting either. 

Didn't notice this back home, but i don't know if that's just coincidence.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^There are several factors, including tire age, climate, and frequency of use. Riding scrubs it off so you don't notice it as much. It means the tire is getting old and should be replaced soon, mostly.


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

Any thoughts on the Caffe Latex additive and their claim it doesn't play well with ammonia?

image: https://68.media.tumblr.com/61d69fb11ccddde9aae32dccc9d440d8/tumblr_owng0iiw9n1ud1u2bo1_1280.jpg

Effetto Mariposa has a prototype powder that is added to its Caffe Latex tire sealant. This additive allows for better sealing of larger punctures. It's a similar concept to other tubeless solutions that feature additives, but the V-CL additive is not packaged with the Caffe Latex in order to facilitate easier installation. While it may work with other sealants, representatives were quick to note that not all sealants are created equal, so use at your own risk. Some sealants, for example, contain ammonia, which doesn't play nice with the V-CL additive.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

big0mike said:


> So I just got a bag of these last night. Rereading this you HYDRATE them FIRST and then crush them?
> 
> I'm wondering what happens if your sealant runs dry and you forget or don't even know to refill them? I do this all the time...  I guess they'll turn back into marbles and start rolling around in the tire?


Yes, you crush them after they've been hydrated. I'm trying several methods for a crush that replicates particle sizes consistently, first one uses an irrigation syringe, the other an oral injection syringe (no needles on either), both just have different orifice sizes. So far, instead of having the crushed water beads settle out in the bulk jug of solution, I've been crushing 5-6 beads directly into the tire before seating, then adding sealant through the valve core. I've also successfully injected crushed beads through the valve core too. First time around, I just crushed them up in a thin sandwich bag, cut off the corner and squirted into the tire - worked fine...I'm just a raging heroin junky and have syringes lying around all over the place .

When the water bead fragments dry out, they do the exact same thing cornmeal does with stans/clones. It shrinks, and then rehydrates and steals moisture from the add-on solution that you apply to already seated, dried out tires - which is why my "add on" solutions are more watered down than first use solutions. I'm using these water beads in 3 bikes now, fared well in cactus country last week.

I have two clear experiment bottles sitting on my workbench with these water beads crushed in sealants- in one is my homebrew Stan's clone, the other in new Slime STR (with all the fibers removed). In both instances in the test bottles, they're staying hydrated and snot globbly just like I'd like them to. The DO NOT clump or adhere to each other like fibers or lint, and stay suspended in the solution for way, way longer than cornmeal.

No long term tests yet, but there's no way these are going to work worse than conrmeal, and I'm hoping they do much better. The ammonia in the Stan's clone might actually toughen up this material too, making it even more rubbery.

I'm also thinking that these might act as a buffer for moisture loss - as the sealant loses moisture, I'm thinking water will move out of the beads and into solution, keeping the sealant liquid longer. If the beads go in 100% hydrated, then they can't steal any moisture from the sealant, and can only add water to drying out sealant - until it reaches some sort of equilibrium. These things are used to slow release water plants and cut flowers, so that's what they do.

I did try some "dry out" tests with both formulas w/ crushed beads, and was pretty happy with the snot globbiness of the water bead chunks once dried out. Both solutions (about 2 oz each), were poured out onto their own paper plates and left to dry for a day or so...unfortunately the plates weren't lined, so alot of moisture soaked into the paper with both formulas, so it wasn't a great test, but still pretty good. Water bead snot globs (W.B.S.G. for a formula name anyone?) had more substance to them than the cormeal in my Stan's clone once dried.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Andy13 said:


> Any thoughts on the Caffe Latex additive and their claim it doesn't play well with ammonia?
> 
> image: https://68.media.tumblr.com/61d69fb11ccddde9aae32dccc9d440d8/tumblr_owng0iiw9n1ud1u2bo1_1280.jpg
> 
> Effetto Mariposa has a prototype powder that is added to its Caffe Latex tire sealant. This additive allows for better sealing of larger punctures. It's a similar concept to other tubeless solutions that feature additives, but the V-CL additive is not packaged with the Caffe Latex in order to facilitate easier installation. While it may work with other sealants, representatives were quick to note that not all sealants are created equal, so use at your own risk. Some sealants, for example, contain ammonia, which doesn't play nice with the V-CL additive.


They also said that their tubeless rim strips didn't play well with ammonia either, ruling out Stan's/clones use with them. Crazy expensive anyway, even if you could find them.


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## RubeRad (Jul 1, 2013)

So I discovered yesterday that, ironically, the container which held my batch of BAMFS, sprung a leak. Fortunately that container was sitting in a big bucket with all my other tubelessing supplies (tape, old valve, etc), which was about an inch deep in the stuff. Not much drying out of the exposed surface, which surprised me, just one rubberized booger on the edge.

The vessel which couldn't hack it was a regular plastic gallon milk jug. I was able to fill my old TruckerCo 1L container, and about another 1L into a more sturdy clear plastic juice bottle.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

My favorite bottle is a Slime bottle I had leftover from my WSS days...I like the spout.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

watermonkey said:


> Yes, you crush them after they've been hydrated. I'm trying several methods for a crush that replicates particle sizes consistently...


Cool. I put 8 or 10 in a glass of water just to see what they are and do. Didn't take long to swell up. Squished a couple between my fingers. Definitely some possibilities...



watermonkey said:


> I'm also thinking that these might act as a buffer for moisture loss - as the sealant loses moisture, I'm thinking water will move out of the beads and into solution, keeping the sealant liquid longer. If the beads go in 100% hydrated, then they can't steal any moisture from the sealant, and can only add water to drying out sealant.


My guess is the amount of water in these things is minuscule but I certainly don't know much about them...



watermonkey said:


> I did try some "dry out" tests with both formulas w/ crushed beads, and was pretty happy with the snot globbiness of the water bead chunks once dried out.


In plain water they just feel soft and rubbery so I'm not convinced that they will work equally well as a wad of sticky corn meal but it certainly can't hurt. Especially if the chunks are decent size. They'll plug the hole and the sealant will seal around the plug.

I can't see them squeezing through a syringe but I crack my tires open to refill now (got tired of my cores getting plugged up and having to replace) so the next time I'll have to throw some smashed bits in. I'll have to see how many need to be hydrated and crushed to find an appropriate dose.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Here's the syringe I used to squeeze them through, injected them through the valve stem (removable presta core) with an extension hose. Now that I think about it, I think this syringe tip will fit directly into the presta valve body. It takes quite a bit of force to mash these through, but that's a good thing, means they're tough enough that they'll plug up holes.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

watermonkey said:


> Here's the syringe I used to squeeze them through, injected them through the valve stem (removable presta core) with an extension hose. Now that I think about it, I think this syringe tip will fit directly into the presta valve body. It takes quite a bit of force to mash these through, but that's a good thing, means they're tough enough that they'll plug up holes.


Interesting method. I've got an old Stan's injector that will work marvelously for this...

Odd that your balls have color. I got a bag of purple balls and they are invisible in the water if you aren't looking for them.


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## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

watermonkey said:


> Here's the syringe I used to squeeze them through, injected them through the valve stem (removable presta core) with an extension hose. Now that I think about it, I think this syringe tip will fit directly into the presta valve body. It takes quite a bit of force to mash these through, but that's a good thing, means they're tough enough that they'll plug up holes.
> 
> View attachment 1160750
> 
> ...


Field tested this weekend - been running this setup for over a month. Apparently I did some real testing on my ride yesterday - didn't notice the sealed hole in the rear tire until post ride when I was loading the bike up high on my truck rack. A little Slime STR and a few globs of water bead snot globs (W.B.S.G.) glued on the outside. I'm sold on these. W.B.S.G. ftw.


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## jbella (Dec 22, 2005)

I made this video and tested Stans Path of Death (with Stans sealant) the other day. I think I'm going to test a few other sealant too since I have built the "thing". I would love to test some DIY version(s) as well, any suggestions on what I should test?






(PS: This thread is long!!!!)


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^WSS, the Stan's clones.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I have a video of my BAMFS, will post soon.


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## ten80 (Aug 16, 2014)

Have others had problems with homebrew formulations containing ammonia eating through the adhesive on various tapes? I've Gorilla Tape, Gorilla Clear Repair Tape, Chemtape (chemical-resistant duct-tape), strapping tape, and a few others fail on me using my Latex/PG/Windex/water/slime formulation.

It seems that many folks are using formulations without ammonia, so the question is WHETHER AMMONIA IS BENEFICIAL, or does it just result in me re-taping rims every month?!


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Been running ammonia-based homebrew for several years with no issues ever with my tape - both Stan's yellow tape and Gorilla.


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## ElwoodT (Mar 13, 2011)

no problems w/ammonia and tape...or with out.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

No problems with tape and ammonia, maybe scrub your rims with a solvent, alcohol, and soapy water.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

I have been running tubeless since year 2000. 

Have tried most on the way to a perfect tubeless setup.

Started like most with latex based sealants.

They dry out and stop sealing pretty fast if you live in a warm climate.
They also ruin clothes and whatever they get on (when you get a hole in the rear tyre and continue riding you get a nice pattern of latex on your back if the hole is not very small.

Like most I started out with rim strips and kits from Stan and Swiss and a couple of other similar inferior products. Did not know better.

Now I ride with real tubeless wheels, real tubeless (not tubeless ready) tyres, use latex- and poison- free sealant that is not drying out but last as long as the tyres do. 
That way I spend more time riding my bike and less messing around with getting the rims airtight, getting the sealant to cover too thin side-walls, which is really time consuming.

Latex is good for doctors and nurses gloves and probably a lot of other things, but for sealing tyres is sucks.

If you live in the US try Quadboss ATV sealant, it last the lifetime of the tyres, if you live in Europe there are now so many making latex free sealant that you can google and find them.

If you want to save a few bucks and spend a lot of time mixing and experimenting: Good luck. 

I just want to spend my spare time riding my bike.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

klavius said:


> Hi
> 
> Are all the sealants the same? Do they all get that sticky?
> 
> ...


No. 
Try latex free sealant from Quadboss. Will not dry out and will seal most holes and last liquid till the tyres need to be replaced.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

las-palmas said:


> No.
> Try latex free sealant from Quadboss. Will not dry out and will seal most holes and last liquid till the tyres need to be replaced.


Yeah right...


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## matt.s67 (Nov 4, 2016)

Has anyone else tried this Quadboss sealant? I'd love a sealant that doesn't dry out.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

matt.s67 said:


> Has anyone else tried this Quadboss sealant? I'd love a sealant that doesn't dry out.


Yeah. 5 years. 
No mess, 
no mixing, 
no waste of time trying to get a formula right, 
no sticky latex on clothes, 
no latex that dry out and need to be replaced (after a while the dried out sealant will be heavier than than the wheel), 
no fun trying to find a formula that is better than the companies that work with sealants professionally are doing.
Lots of reasons to do what you like the most.
Me: I like riding my bike more than mixing sealants!


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Sorry you had such a bad experience, why are you on this thread about homebrew sealant? You kinda sound like a shill. Pretty obvious you don't really mtb and use sealant.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

But wait...there's more!!!


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

s0ckeyeus said:


> But wait...there's more!!!


more!? you don't say?


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

"after a while the dried out sealant will be heavier than than the wheel" - sounds like a challenge to me
Anybody have dried out sealant in tires that weighs over 1450g? How about over 1000g?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

I have had a tire for a few years that in the end weighed ~100g more than it started with from dried sealant. I was shocked.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

Andy13 said:


> Any thoughts on the Caffe Latex additive and their claim it doesn't play well with ammonia?
> 
> image: https://68.media.tumblr.com/61d69fb11ccddde9aae32dccc9d440d8/tumblr_owng0iiw9n1ud1u2bo1_1280.jpg
> 
> Effetto Mariposa has a prototype powder that is added to its Caffe Latex tire sealant. This additive allows for better sealing of larger punctures. It's a similar concept to other tubeless solutions that feature additives, but the V-CL additive is not packaged with the Caffe Latex in order to facilitate easier installation. While it may work with other sealants, representatives were quick to note that not all sealants are created equal, so use at your own risk. Some sealants, for example, contain ammonia, which doesn't play nice with the V-CL additive.


Yep. with CaffeLatex I had a hole in the rear tire and got a long pattern up the back of my jersey. It never got off.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

bsieb said:


> ^Sorry you had such a bad experience, why are you on this thread about homebrew sealant? You kinda sound like a shill. Pretty obvious you don't really mtb and use sealant.


I am sure you are right. Everybody is right about something. What you are right about you may know or not know. 
I am here because I saw somebody asking if all sealants are sticky and I answered. 
I do not know what "really mtb" mean for you. Maybe you can tell me the secret words you use to be a real mtb'er. 
I used sealants from when it was a new thing (1999) because I was tired of changing or fixing tubes and back then latex was the only thing to use. Latex will dry out and stop closing punctures; still most of the "real users" of sealants use that kind of amateur stuff in their tires. Latex will harm some tyres and some paint types and also some of the types of material rims are made of. 
If you are the little chemist trying to make a new kind of sealant and improve what Stan and the others are doing: Good luck. 
I prefer to ride on the trails in the mountains with thorns and lava and rocks that to try to destroy to my tires and prevent the sealant I have in them to stop sealing the holes I pick up on my way. If you prefer mixing things that could be poisonous and harm the environment that some of us want to enjoy unharmed instead of riding that is your choice.
Then again, what do I know, I am just an old guy riding my Mojo and the worst is that I am still on 26" so you are right. I must know nothing.


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## 6D ATB-1T EVO (Jul 13, 2010)

Andy13 said:


> "after a while the dried out sealant will be heavier than than the wheel" - sounds like a challenge to me
> Anybody have dried out sealant in tires that weighs over 1450g? How about over 1000g?


That is right. Most will have worn out the tires long before that could happen. Exaggerate if you want to make your point. 
Still latex dry out, stop sealing holes and when you add new the weight will increase. I use a bit less than 200ml Quadboss sealant and when my tires need to be replaced the stuff is still liquid and will still seal holes. Get latex on your clothes and it will never get off again.


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## BlueCheesehead (Jul 17, 2010)

las-palmas said:


> That is right. Most will have worn out the tires long before that could happen. Exaggerate if you want to make your point.
> Still latex dry out, stop sealing holes and when you add new the weight will increase. I use a bit less than 200ml Quadboss sealant and when my tires need to be replaced the stuff is still liquid and will still seal holes. Get latex on your clothes and it will never get off again.


Adding 200ml to a tire is ~6.75 ounces. No wonder you do not notice it drying.

My home brew of 1 part latex and 3 parts windshield washer fluid seems to work on my road bike, fat bike and all in between. I experience ~ 50% evaporation/drying over 6 months, from a 3.5 oz dose in a 4" fat tire.


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## _crucial_ (Nov 14, 2017)

I just tried making up a batch of wss (1pt mold builder, 1 pt slime, 3 pts rv pg) and put 4 oz in each tire. I have Nates with fatty strippers. After 3 days the bead is still foaming and seeping out a clear looking liquid. I didn't have any seeping like this with stans. Is this normal?

The rv pg is 30% PG and 70% water


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Have you been riding it? Because that can go on forever, with any sealant, if you are just letting it sit. Important to get everything seated properly by riding, especially a new install.


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## _crucial_ (Nov 14, 2017)

bsieb said:


> ^Have you been riding it? Because that can go on forever, with any sealant, if you are just letting it sit. Important to get everything seated properly by riding, especially a new install.


I hope to get out and ride today. I've just been doing the Stans shake and keeping them inflated.


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## _crucial_ (Nov 14, 2017)

I've got about 30 miles on it and a couple of weeks and this stuff is still bubbling out of the bead and weeping clearish liquid. I've got to air it up before every ride.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^What air pressure?


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

And what mix are you running?


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

_crucial_ said:


> I've got about 30 miles on it and a couple of weeks and this stuff is still bubbling out of the bead and weeping clearish liquid. I've got to air it up before every ride.


Are you positive the bead is set?


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## _crucial_ (Nov 14, 2017)

_crucial_ said:


> I just tried making up a batch of wss (1pt mold builder, 1 pt slime, 3 pts rv pg) and put 4 oz in each tire. I have Nates with fatty strippers.
> 
> The rv pg is 30% PG and 70% water


11psi front, 12psi rear (no snow yet and I'm a heavy rider so I run a little higher) and the bead is set all the way around. The tires had never been mounted tubeless and the tires and rim were cleaned prior to mounting. This is the 3rd set of tires I've setup tubeless and the first with home brew. The other two were with Stans and I didn't get any bubbling or weeping of any kind from the bead on those so it was odd to me. I put another 20 miles of singletrack riding on and now I'm getting small puddles of greenish clear liquid on the floor after riding and letting it sit overnight. I can press on the tire near the bead and it will foam and bubble where I'm pressing. The bottle I mixed up isn't separated and the latex is mixed up and not clumping so I wouldn't think it would be a problem in the tire.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Try a little more pressure, your beads are obviously not sealing.

Try some Stans.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

bsieb said:


> ^Try a little more pressure, your beads are obviously not sealing.
> 
> Try some Stans.


What he said, although I think the type of sealant used is at least partially irrelevant. The bead shouldn't be leaking as badly as it sounds it is even without sealant. I don't think the bead is set all the way. I'd up the pressure to just under recommended limits of your rim/tire to see if the bead pops in.


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## _crucial_ (Nov 14, 2017)

They were aired up to 25psi at time of mounting and for two days after I initially set them up tubeless. Air them up and do the stans shake and come back a few hours later and do it again. The bead is popped all the way around. I ordered some other sealant and am going to clean and remount these and see what happens.

Pic is whats on the floor after sitting for a day or two after riding.


----------



## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

big0mike said:


> I noticed this just the other night as I was getting to the bottom of my current batch. Had a couple small cornmeal clogs as well as hair clogs (I use hair shed by my now deceased Great Dane) in my applicator bottle.


Sorry to hear of the loss of your Great Dane. He/she filled many tyres over the years and am grateful for its contribution on this great Forum. I still keep on using a combination of course corn meal plus dog hair (Jack Russel) as chunkulators. I believe the hair provides the matrix for the corn meal to settle and plug big holes. All chunkulators suspended in the mix by a small amount of XG. It plugged really big holes.


----------



## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Richard Muller said:


> Sorry to hear of the loss of your Great Dane. He/she filled many tyres over the years and am grateful for its contribution on this great Forum. I still keep on using a combination of course corn meal plus dog hair (Jack Russel) as chunkulators. I believe the hair provides the matrix for the corn meal to settle and plug big holes. All chunkulators suspended in the mix by a small amount of XG. It plugged really big holes.


I think the hair works as well. Unfortunately, we now have two rescue Greyhounds and they don't shed for shi|t so I'll be forced to start using my ball shavings at some point in the future... :yikes: Luckily, the Dane shed like mad so I've got lots. May have an Irish Wolfhound in the future so those hairy beasts have GOT to shed some!


----------



## natron5000 (Nov 25, 2009)

Anyone take a shot at reverse engineering orange seal, or have an opinion on what ingredients may differ between stans and orange seal ?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

^^^It doesn't clump up/booger up like Stan's but leaves more like a smeg/snakeskin layer as it dries out...like more latex/no cornmeal.


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## alexdi (Jun 25, 2016)

Niagara is selling Slime's new STR Premium in 1-gallon form for about $30.

https://www.niagaracycle.com/categories/tire-sealer-slime-premium-1-gallon-w-pump

Their picture isn't right, but based on a bit of sleuthing, it's the right stuff. I haven't tried it. I have watched their PR people and Seth poke holes in tires and have it seal instantly, so I bought some. Cost is $0.25/oz, similar to DIY. Stan's is about $0.75. Orange Seal is over $1. Even at regular pricing ($65ish), Slime undercuts everything else.

I was using TruckerCo, which is about $0.60/oz. It doesn't seal, dries out quickly, and tends to form fluff balls. The inside of my tire looks like dried oatmeal: lumpy and porous. It's also about 60g heavier than it was new and the latex layer doesn't peel off in one piece like Orange Seal. Not impressed.

Here's to hoping STR lasts a little longer.


----------



## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

alexdi said:


> Niagara is selling Slime's new STR Premium in 1-gallon form for about $30.
> 
> https://www.niagaracycle.com/categories/tire-sealer-slime-premium-1-gallon-w-pump
> 
> ...


Thanks.

I was thinking of giving the Trucker Co a shot as I can get it cheap, but will pass.

That Stan's looks like a good deal. But, Stan's seems to have issues with shelf life - as least they did. That's what got me to go to home-brew years back.

If I knew shelf life was not going to be an issue I'd buy that large batch.


----------



## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

reading MTBRs promo for new Finish Line sealant. i'm a homebrew guy...how can they make something that never dries up but still seals? Just seems almost impossible.

looks a little thicker, kind of like old school slime.

Frostbike 2018: Finish Line's new sealant that never dries out - Mtbr.com






Chemists chime in!!!


----------



## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

slcpunk said:


> reading MTBRs promo for new Finish Line sealant. i'm a homebrew guy...how can they make something that never dries up but still seals? Just seems almost impossible.
> 
> Frostbike 2018: Finish Line's new sealant that never dries out - Mtbr.com


You gotta be able to read between the lines, so to speak. When you read a review that claims "this bike climbs like a 25# XC bike and descends like a 200mm DH bike" do you believe it?

My guess is they are grading on a curve. They claim it lasts the life of the tire. For me on DHF/DHR II DC TR EXO tires at maybe 25 miles a week that's 6 to 9 months. Their claim will never hold true. Some guys will be riding thinner, softer tires and will ride 25 miles a day, 5 days a week and the sealant may well last the life of the tire.


----------



## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Has anyone figured out what is the new Finish Line sealant? Sounds like the old-school Slimes from the '90s.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Just mixed a batch I cut into two:

Base:
32oz water
32oz PG
16oz mold builder
5 oz ammonia

Mix A:
1/2 cup rubber crumb
1/4 cup crushed water beads
1/4 cup corn meal
1 tsp xantham gum

Mix B:
1/2 cup rubber crumb
1/4 cup corn meal
1 tsp xantham gum

I'll put one in each tire and see if either performs better or worse than the other...


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> Has anyone figured out what is the new Finish Line sealant? Sounds like the old-school Slimes from the '90s.


Supposedly it doesn't clog valve cores AND it seals holes...

lol


----------



## CRANK! (Jun 11, 2014)

The finish line stuff got bad reviews just look it up. No point in trying to make a copy of that. Has anyone figured out how to make orange seal? 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## cpinkhouse (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm sure we've all wondered how well OSS stays preserved...
I took a cornmeal OSS batch from 2016 off the shelf. Last year I had made a batch with different chunkulators, but I had to keep looking at the unfinished batch - and it was really annoying me!
I did float enough ammonia on top to provide a barrier and when I mounted and brought them up to pressure the tires sealed just fine. No issues - that's the easy part.

After one ride the stuff seems to be A-OKAY. I'll check back in after several more rides.


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

big0mike said:


> Just mixed a batch I cut into two:
> 
> Base:
> 32oz water
> ...


I would be keenly looking forward to the result of your mix. My earlier experiment with tyre crumbs was a disaster.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Neogen said:


> I would be keenly looking forward to the result of your mix. My earlier experiment with tyre crumbs was a disaster.


My last attempt with the rubber crumb was pretty good except that it boogered more heavily than others...


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## SerJ1us (Jun 26, 2018)

big0mike said:


> Just mixed a batch I cut into two:
> 
> Base:
> 32oz water
> ...


Hi, tell me please. What is this PG?


----------



## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

SerJ1us said:


> Hi, tell me please. What is this PG?


Propylene Glycol
https://www.amazon.com/Propylene-Gl...=1530023314&sr=8-17&keywords=propylene+glycol

It's used as a substitute for RV Antifreeze which was popularized with WSS.


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## OregonXC (Sep 1, 2004)

This should be moved to the wheels and tires forum. 29 components forum makes no sense


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## Haymarket (Jan 20, 2008)

OregonXC said:


> This should be moved to the wheels and tires forum. 29 components forum makes no sense


Yeah,,,,it'll die on the vine quickly here....great point.


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## OregonXC (Sep 1, 2004)

It wouldn’t “die on the vine” there. Such an obtuse comment. There are many that would benefit. 29ers aren’t the end all


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## Haymarket (Jan 20, 2008)

OregonXC said:


> It wouldn't "die on the vine" there. Such an obtuse comment. There are many that would benefit. 29ers aren't the end all


I'll slow it down for you...it's been on this board for more than a decade.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Anyone who searched for "tubeless brew" will likely end up here. 

After 10 years there's no need to move it anywhere.


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## esXso (Sep 23, 2008)

Propylene glycol, aka "vegetable glycerine", is the magic ingredient that allows sealant to stay liquid for longer periods of time. It has some anti-freeze properties but primarily it's a wetting agent and is extracted from crops using a press. In living plants it helps prevent them from becoming dehydrated in the sun and during droughts.

If you mix it directly with pure latex though the latex will instantly turn to hard rubber, so you add a bit slowly into the solution while stirring as a final ingredient.

With propylene glycol my homemade brew stays good in the tire for about half a year instead of only three months (typical for Stans). It's expensive stuff but a little bit goes a long way.

It doesn't seem to hinder the ability to seal a puncture. I put tiny chunks of rubber in my brew made from applying used inner tubes or old tires to a grinding wheel or belt sander.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...industrial&field-keywords=vegetable+glycerine


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

Propylene Glycol (PG) and Vegetable Glycerine are two different substances. PG is what many use for homebrew sealant. I get mine at Tractor Supply stores for ~$23/gallon, which will last many years. Vegetable Glycerine may work, but I haven't heard of it being used until this recent post.


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## dagomez99 (Aug 10, 2018)

*First tubeless experience*

Hey guys, after finally reading this thread I'm getting ready to go tubeless.

Big thanks are in order, wadester, big0mike (big time moderator), slocaus, bsieb, eurotrash, thuren and tiGeo (just to name a few) for making this thing possible. I live in Colombia and going tubeless is a big hole in the wallet, almost the same as buying Maxxis WW tubes every two months, so Stan's price, albeit not prohibitive would really negate the benefits of tubeless. Homebrew ftw!

I was also wondering what happened to the idea of using PVA, boric acid and chitosan? Looks promising BUT I read that too little too late, I had already bought my latex and supplies.

I've settled on making OSS/BAMFS without ammonia (since it is borderline impossible to get without asking permission to the president) the temperatures I ride in vary from 10° to 30° Celsius so I don't think longevity will suffer although I'll post updates. Any feedback would be appreciated too, I've thought about using lye or sodium bicarbonate but lye does react with aluminum and AlOxide so I've pretty much discarded the idea.

I'll try to document the process and give updates. Oh and also I'll be using Tesa brand duct tape for my ghetto conversion since we don't have gorilla tape here, has any of you had experience with not using gorilla tape?

Thank you again and pardon my English, it's not my main language.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Right on Dagomez99, and feel free to substitute what you got on hand. Generic polypro strapping tape works well for me, doesn't leave any residue.

JVCC TPS-04 Appliance-Grade Tensilized Polypropylene Strapping Tape


----------



## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Has anyone figured out the breakout of Orange Seal/what's in it?


----------



## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

*50% off coupon @ Michaels*

Apply to cart

Choose in store pickup @ checkout

Liquid Latex for $9.00.

https://www.michaels.com/castin-craft-mold-builder/10558726.html


----------



## rlucky82 (Jun 5, 2010)

So I can no longer find slime tubeless and tries slime tire sealant as a substitute. Doesn't work as good. Now what's a poor boy to do? 

Any advice on a better replacement?
I was happily using the 1part latex 1part RV antifreeze 1part slime 2 parts water formula. 
Thanks.


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## jimbowho (Dec 16, 2009)

Just ordered Michaels mold builder, Amazon. Another 16-oz for $11.00 product called "Kangaroo liquid latex" popped up. It's in a Stans shaped bottle which means it may not be the thick stuff I'm used to.

Anyone try this goop yet???


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

rlucky82 said:


> So I can no longer find slime tubeless and tries slime tire sealant as a substitute. Doesn't work as good. Now what's a poor boy to do?
> 
> Any advice on a better replacement?
> I was happily using the 1part latex 1part RV antifreeze 1part slime 2 parts water formula.
> Thanks.


The original formula I used years ago was what you have listed but with ATV Slime...never used the Slime Tubeless....


----------



## rlucky82 (Jun 5, 2010)

Thanks I just had to thicken it up by adding another part of slime.


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## jerrduford (Sep 14, 2015)

I've been using this recipe for the last year or so. (1 part mold builder, 1 part automotive slime, 1 part EG antifreeze, 2 parts water).

Unfortunately it seems a lot of the time I go to switch tires lately, the stuff kind of de-homogenizes inside the tire and what I end up with is a well-coated latex tire and a pool of thin, green liquid that would fail to seal a hole, and smells a bit like sour beer. 

Anyone else have this experience? It seems lately it only takes two weeks for this to happen.


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## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Ive never deviated from: 

1 part Mold Builer
1 part Auto Slime
3 parts RV antifreeze (uses PG not EG).

In my experience it's very stable and doesn't break down.


----------



## jerrduford (Sep 14, 2015)

driver bob said:


> Ive never deviated from:
> 
> 1 part Mold Builer
> 1 part Auto Slime
> ...


Nevermind - I confirmed it's PG that I use. I wonder what the issue is then... is it the water?


----------



## driver bob (Oct 12, 2005)

Could be. Way back in this thread when I started mixing my own sealant using WSS recipe there was a note that RV antifreeze was already diluted for use so water could be excluded where-as EG antifreeze needed (IIRC) diluted 50:50 with water.


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## jerrduford (Sep 14, 2015)

JoeandEaston said:


> Is Stan's getting cheap on us? Is glitter expensive? Maybe whatever Stans uses is expensive.
> 
> I have been using this mixture with good, not great results for more than a year. I've had to add to it and clean out the tire several times during that time. It's being used in a commuter specific bike with 1.5" specialized tires. (and also my MTB's) Most recently when I checked it, it appeared the latex was dried out and there was green colored water like in the photo's above. I have not been adding the cheap antifreeze, but will start now.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the reply on a 10 year old post. I can't seem to find if/when you found a resolution and I just posted something similar. Any way to prevent the thin green liquid + dried up latex?

I can only assume that the PG antifreeze must be the ticket. Maybe I'll try adding a quart to my ~half gallon of current brew. Might have to re-thicken with some more slime.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^Have you tried adding a half cup of clear ammonia to your mix? Helps keep the latex liquid for longer.


----------



## jerrduford (Sep 14, 2015)

bsieb said:


> ^Have you tried adding a half cup of clear ammonia to your mix? Helps keep the latex liquid for longer.


Maybe I'll try that instead. The issue doesn't seem to be with the mixture drying out, rather, the latex sticking to the tire and the rest of the mix remaining.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

jerrduford said:


> Maybe I'll try that instead. The issue doesn't seem to be with the mixture drying out, rather, the latex sticking to the tire and the rest of the mix remaining.


You may find that opening the bead and topping off the puddle from time to time will help prevent things from drying out too. Easy peasy, bead goes right back with a floor pump. As the sidewalls wear they become more porous too, another way for mix to dry out in the tire.


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

jerrduford said:


> Maybe I'll try that instead. The issue doesn't seem to be with the mixture drying out, rather, the latex sticking to the tire and the rest of the mix remaining.


The thing is, it's the amónia that keeps the pH above 8 and prevent the latex from starting polymerization, it doesn't matter it is dry or not, well, if is dry it means you also don't have ammonia anymore  , anyway if the ammonia dissolved in the solution evaporate the latex will start polymerization. So try adding a few ml of ammonia from time to time, and see if it helps.


----------



## dagomez99 (Aug 10, 2018)

*Fully DIY tubeless.*



dagomez99 said:


> Hey guys, after finally reading this thread I'm getting ready to go tubeless.
> 
> [...]
> 
> I'll try to document the process and give updates.


So, here's the process.
I bought my bike used, so i don't know what has been done to it but afaik it's as stock as it came from the factory. Here's how my rims were, they had some sort of buildup in some parts, and the paint was flaking, I used a bit of scotch brite to clean as good as i could with soapy water and then used iso alcohol to give everything a final wipe.















Then the tape ghetto conversion (two loops of tape)









And the valve hole.









At this point, I put the tubes back in and pumped them to 50 psi overnight, and then rode them at 40 for another week (or so i was planning, but you know how life goes, they were there for ~2 months but ridden at normal pressures).
Here's what they looked like when I mounted the new valves. Maybe all that time was the key to success because air never leaked from spoke holes when i finally mounted the tires.









So, front tire went in no problem, sealant worked just as i expected it to work, i even tested it with a 20 ga hypodermic needle (i don't get those monstrous goatheads you post here) and it sealed within seconds.
Back tire... well there were two problems, after the bike was bought I replaced the tube after a pinch flat and noticed there was a 29er tube in a 27.5 wheelset, and the tire bead got a little bit stretched (same tires front and back and i could tell the back one was noticeably looser) so popping the beads was a little bit harder. Well, no, that's a bit of an understatement actually, I couldn't pop the beads no matter what i did. Upon closer inspection I found this.









My effing tire had a sidewall cut :madman: it was not big maybe half a cm but enough for letting all the air bursting into the tire escape, put on a tube patch and tried again. Since I don't have an air compressor, was using the DIY tire booster I found online. looked like this, that's 5 mm poly tubing so... sidewall gash was about the same diameter as the tubing.









I was playing it safe, pumping the bottle to 60 psi before blasting the tire but since this tire was looser I had to pump it to 80 and finally beads popped into place.

This is the patched sidewall from outside (i was kind of worried but i figured it held pressures up to 60 when I put back the tubes so 26 wouldn't be a problem)









After that i just sloshed, shook, spun the tires for a good 10 minutes each. Cleaned the spilled sealant and waited overnight. The next morning front was down to 14 and back to 8 psi. Pumped them to 28, and went for a ride. No problems. i was testing the reliability of the tires, putting them through progressively harsher terrain every time. They held even on a 100+ staircase.

That was a week ago, and since then the tires have not noticeably lost much pressure whatsoever; obviously gonna check pressure before every ride but for the time being I call this a success! Fully DIY tubeless.:thumbsup:


----------



## watermonkey (Jun 21, 2011)

Aglo said:


> The thing is, it's the amónia that keeps the pH above 8 and prevent the latex from starting polymerization, it doesn't matter it is dry or not, well, if is dry it means you also don't have ammonia anymore  , anyway if the ammonia dissolved in the solution evaporate the latex will start polymerization. So try adding a few ml of ammonia from time to time, and see if it helps.


Using CO2 cartridges will exacerbate this problem as well. CO2 and the water in the tubeless brew combine and are acidic, neutralizing the ammonia, solidifying your liquid latex. I once used the CO2 tank from my keg fridge to seat a fatbike tire as that was the only source of compressed gas I had. The next day, the latex was completely solid, and all that was left was watery muck.


----------



## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

So if one was to make a crossbreed of WSS and OSS and use Slime would you substitute PG for RV Antifreeze? I was just thinking of something new to try. WSS is great, most of my versions of OSS have been great, but I was thinking about an eco-friendly version of WSS without the antifreeze... just for shits and giggles...


----------



## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Neogen said:


> big0mike said:
> 
> 
> > Just mixed a batch I cut into two:
> ...





big0mike said:


> My last attempt with the rubber crumb was pretty good except that it boogered more heavily than others...


No discernible difference in the two mixes. I will note that I had very little boogering with these mixes leading me to believe that the previous high-booger-rate I experienced with rubber crumb was indeed caused by mixing it in an aluminum paint can (someone pointed out that it causes a reaction with the chemicals).

Haven't decided if I'm gonna try an eco-friendly WSS (my post above) or stick with one of these two mixes. I've got plenty of beads left but if they absorb and need a steady supply of water to keep swollen they may be a cause of early drying out? Just a theory. I don't recall having one tire need a refill very much before the other.


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

^For updated WSS use food grade PG (propylene glycol, a common food additive) instead of antifreeze. Tractor Supply carries it.


----------



## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

bsieb said:


> ^For updated WSS use food grade PG (propylene glycol, a common food additive) instead of antifreeze. Tractor Supply carries it.





wadester said:


> Since 5/04 I been running:
> 1 part Latex mold builder
> 1 part Slime tubeless
> 1 part cheap antifreeze
> 2 parts water


So going all the way back to page one (this may or may not be a "current" WSS) I'd go:
1 Mold Builder
1 Slime
1 PG
2 Water

That's kinda what I was thinking although PG is thicker than antifreeze...


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

big0mike said:


> So going all the way back to page one (this may or may not be a "current" WSS) I'd go:
> 1 Mold Builder
> 1 Slime
> 1 PG
> ...


That's it... I include 1/2 cup of clear ammonia. PG is about the same viscosity as antifreeze.


----------



## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

big0mike said:


> So going all the way back to page one (this may or may not be a "current" WSS) I'd go:
> 1 Mold Builder
> 1 Slime
> 1 PG
> ...


Far as I can tell one of the main ingredients in Slime is PG.

Since I can often find the Slime Pro (has nice chunks) on sale at the local Wally World I usually use that as a base.

To the Slime Pro I add latex and water and just a bit of PG (as I'm convinced there's likely a lot of PG in it already), and a few tablespoons of rinsed, coarse cornmeal. And some ammonia.

Been using that mix for years now. And it's always worked out great.


----------



## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Miker J said:


> Far as I can tell one of the main ingredients in Slime is PG.
> 
> Since I can often find the Slime Pro (has nice chunks) on sale at the local Wally World I usually use that as a base.
> 
> To the Slime Pro I add latex and water and just a bit of PG (as I'm convinced there's likely a lot of PG in it already), and a few tablespoons of rinsed, coarse cornmeal. And some ammonia.


I thought Slime Pro was their latex-based sealant like Stan's?


----------



## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

big0mike said:


> I thought Slime Pro was their latex-based sealant like Stan's?


Hmmm.

You maybe right...

Not at home to check the jug... and when I look on their site I'm quite certain I'm using just the "Slime for Tubes", not the Pro.

https://shop.slime.com/collections/...cts/tube-sealant-1-gallon?variant=45263886088

I've got this at Wally World for $19.99


----------



## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

Miker J said:


> Not at home to check the jug... and when I look on their site I'm quite certain I'm using just the "Slime for Tubes", not the Pro.
> 
> https://shop.slime.com/collections/...cts/tube-sealant-1-gallon?variant=45263886088
> 
> I've got this at Wally World for $19.99


$20 for a gallon? That's a good deal. Not sure if it's worth going into a Walmart, though


----------



## Undescended (Apr 16, 2018)

Berryman Tire Seal-r has worked well for me. Uses no latex and does not dry out. $30/gal at Tractor Supply.


----------



## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Heist30 said:


> Berryman Tire Seal-r has worked well for me. Uses no latex and does not dry out. $30/gal at Tractor Supply.


For those riding in the cold, it's only rated to -10 F (-23 C).


----------



## Doug (Jan 12, 2004)

Heist30 said:


> Berryman Tire Seal-r has worked well for me. Uses no latex and does not dry out. $30/gal at Tractor Supply.


Berryman = Orange seal? Same products and properties but rebranded for a higher margin market? I worked for a company that did this. Same goop, different bottle. $3, $10, $30 for the same stuff.


----------



## Undescended (Apr 16, 2018)

Doug said:


> Berryman = Orange seal? Same products and properties but rebranded for a higher margin market? I worked for a company that did this. Same goop, different bottle. $3, $10, $30 for the same stuff.


Don't think it's the same product since Berryman uses fibers and Orange uses latex.


----------



## Haymarket (Jan 20, 2008)

Canoe said:


> For those riding in the cold, it's only rated to -10 F (-23 C).


"Only"? People ride when it's colder than -10f?


----------



## ToastR (Sep 21, 2005)

Haymarket said:


> "Only"? People ride when it's colder than -10f?


You betcha!


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

Haymarket said:


> "Only"? People ride when it's colder than -10f?


F-yeah I do.

I have to think though that a latex/PG mix with water is going to be able to work colder, like -20 to -40, theoretically a 50/50 water mix is good for -40, right? -20 is about the coldest I ride, but no one seems to have problems with this with most people running Stans.


----------



## A/C in Az (Jan 14, 2019)

Canoe said:


> For those riding in the cold, it's only rated to -10 F (-23 C).





Haymarket said:


> "Only"? People ride when it's colder than -10f?


That only applies to storage. If your bike is kept in a house, the tires and sealant will stay warm enough to ride even if it is below zero.


----------



## Stopbreakindown (Jun 27, 2011)

Have we discussed the affects of Ammonia on tires yet? If so, I missed it and would like a recap of y'alls thoughts.

I was tire shopping the other day and found this little quote from the german sites.



> Maxxis strongly advises against the use of ammonia-containing sealant. Ammonia has been shown to attack the carcass and, depending on the amount used, can weaken up to 30% after a few months.
> Maxxis recommends using the Tire Plasma tire sealant .


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

It has been discussed several times but mostly theoretically. I guess a lot depends on how long your tires typically last and how much ammonia you put in them.

The WSS formula I use has 1/8 part of clear household ammonia in 5 parts of other ingredients, so not a very high concentration. I have run Maxxis tires for ~5 years on some wheels and have not had this problem to date.


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## SerJ1us (Jun 26, 2018)

hi, please tell me Did you have experience using liquid latex instead mold builder?


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Haymarket said:


> "Only"? People ride when it's colder than -10f?


Well, _I_ don't. I'm a wuss now. 
My cutoff is -15 C; -20 C only if sunny and no wind. 
Go back three decades and it was -25 C. Still a little wussy.

In this year's ITI, first night out the participants had a drop to -25 F (call it -31 C). Further along the course (on the sea ice or across to Nome, or higher up (like Finger Lake to Rohn), it can get colder. -40 F/C is not uncommon along the course, -50 F (-45 C) can happen, and that's before applying the wind chill of 40 mph winds, or more. Anywhere can become bad, but the sea ice crossing from Little Mountain to Koyuk can be chilly and the Topcock to Safety leg is known for trouble.

This year, warm temperatures are the real problem for poor trail conditions
https://forums.mtbr.com/fat-bikes/i...b-24-a-1096674-post14008416.html#post14008416


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## Aglo (Dec 16, 2014)

SerJ1us said:


> hi, please tell me Did you have experience using liquid latex instead mold builder?


I only use liquid latex. No problem whatsoever.

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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

SerJ1us said:


> hi, please tell me Did you have experience using liquid latex instead mold builder?


They are both the same thing, so it doesn't matter.


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## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

bsieb said:


> It has been discussed several times but mostly theoretically. I guess a lot depends on how long your tires typically last and how much ammonia you put in them.
> 
> The WSS formula I use has 1/8 part of clear household ammonia in 5 parts of other ingredients, so not a very high concentration. I have run Maxxis tires for ~5 years on some wheels and have not had this problem to date.


Hmmm.

So what's the potential drawback to using even _less_ ammonia? Latex more likely to congeal?

When I mix up a gallon of sealant I've only used maybe 2 or 3 tablespoon. About 30cc or so. I've not had any issues.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

*Tubless Ninny with a question-*

Question first then back ground in case it's relevant;

Six months in with tubeless and losing air.... I'm told to get a 'shot' or small portion of Stan's to add through the valve after removing the core. *Please advise by what exactly it's called _or the size of bottle I need_. Any tips related to that process very appreciated also. 

My bike has been tubeless for about 6 months and all I know about that is the guy who set it up this way. I rode pretty regularly up to about two months ago so the bike sat for a while.
Just this week, I'm experiencing my first loss of air and thus far, it seems the front won't hold it very long. Sunday, we biked about 2 hours and it felt soft part way through the ride. By 3/4 of that ride, I added air to get back to the car. I pumped it up at home and spun the wheel some as suggested by him (better yet ride it some) but that, I did not. Still not holding air.

I heard all the great benefits and believed most of what I'd heard but it just didn't grab me by the shirt tails and I was happily pushing pedal, not feeling lost out. 
Eventually, a friend who'd been harping on and on about converting my bike over to tubeless got to me and I felt I'd hurt his feeling arguing otherwise. Beers and music later, it was done. This was likely 6 months ago. It all worked well, held up fine and I barely had to add air in that time. I was more impressed by the job he did than tubeless itself. I thought had read even the best of situations can still mean a bit of TLC or potential for being finicky. Maybe ?

Anyways--- As you might guess, I didn't go to school on tubeless conversion, didn't really get to know the process, or doctor up the ingredients or kit involved etc&#8230; Most of my reasoning for being too lazy about going that route prior was to keep biking simple and fun. I'm not really a 'wrench' and stick to the basics and minimums of caring for the bike and keeping it rolling healthy.

I know John will fix me up if needed but I want to follow his advice and start to learn as I go on this tubeless adventure. The benefits make sense and as long as it doesn't outweigh itself by being more problematic than it's worth (in my world), I'll stick with it and learn more in time. 
I'll admit I appreciate those handy with bike repairs, big tear downs or bike builds, buying special groceries to whip up homemade chain lube etc.... it's just a little bit Deep Woods for me and as per time available at present.

Thanks in advance for anything representing simple advice, steps and the right stuff to purchase. 

~b


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## cachaulo (Sep 14, 2009)

Any tubeless sealant will do (Stan’s, orange, etc), I would go ahead and buy the smallest bottle the shop has if you just want to top it off. Then you need a syringe to squirt it into the valve stem (I got some on amazon). Don’t be afraid, after you do it one time you see how easy it is and will be confident moving forward. In my experience 6mo is about right for topping off sealant especially if you ride a lot. 


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

bachman1961 said:


> Question first then back ground in case it's relevant;
> 
> Six months in with tubeless and losing air.... I'm told to get a 'shot' or small portion of Stan's to add through the valve after removing the core. *Please advise by what exactly it's called _or the size of bottle I need_. Any tips related to that process very appreciated also.
> 
> ...


A lack of sealant shouldn't cause air to escape that fast. You might want to pump up the tire and check to see where air is leaking. A spray bottle filled with water and a few drops of dish detergent works pretty well.

You do need to occasionally add more sealant, especially when it gets warm out. You can squirt a 2 oz bottle of Stan's through your valve, no problem. Then you can keep refilling it from a bigger bottle or homebrew whenever the need arises.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I check sealant levels once a month, by pulling the bead and looking in there. You should have about a 6" long puddle in the tire. It's easy to top off the puddle and put the bead back, a floor pump works fine. If you do this you won't have problems on the trail. I live in a desert environment so the sealant dries out faster than some other places.


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Thank you all for the information, it's all new to me and I'm seeing this seems pretty straight forward. I'll update with result's soon.

- bach


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## bachman1961 (Oct 9, 2013)

Update on my front tire loss of air-

I pumped it up yesterday to try the leak test in water and right away, the tire was spewing air on to my wrist. I spotted a sidewall tear that is vertical rather that lateral along the sidewall as I might have expected. It's perfectly straight and a slight tear maybe a half inch or so. 

I'll use a partly used Nobby Nic I have lying around and get some schooling of the tubeless process this time via the friend that set it up the first time. Meantime, I've got my other bikes that are ready to roll so I'm not hostage to this fix immediately.


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## pedalinbob (Jan 12, 2004)

I tried the BAMFS 2.0. Put some in a tire in September I believe. Only got a handful of rides on it before storing the bike for the winter.
Changed the tire a few weeks ago, and there was still liquid in the tire. It was very similar to Stan's, but had a mildly oily consistency. It was a bit boogered in areas, but held up better than expected.
Very nice!

I used this formula:

2.3 parts distilled water
2 parts propylene glycol
1 part latex mold builder
Cornmeal - I used about a tablespoon for about 8oz of sealant, I think. Probably a bit heavy, but worked fine.

I also used a tablespoon of ammonia.

The oily consistency seemed to be from the RV antifreeze. Perhaps straight PG wouldn't be oily? Wasn't an issue really.

I just used the rest of my latex and used the formula above but used about 2/3 the cornmeal, and about a tablespoon of ammonia per 10oz sealant. 
This was a big batch: about 85oz.

Nice work, folks!

Bob


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## SJDude (Oct 29, 2009)

A quick question I haven't seen a mentioned. For those that use pepper, or cornmeal, or xantham gum have any of you;

a) used a syringe to add fluid through a presta valve stem instead of breaking the bead and adding sealant directly?

and

b) have you had issues with the chunks clogging up your syringe?


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## odtexas (Oct 2, 2008)

90% of time I just use a 60 ml syringe with my home mix through the presta valve with the core removed. 

The mix I use is about the same as pedalinbob has outlined above. I am also very heavy on the cornmeal like he is and I have never had an issue using the large syringe with my mix. I did have pepper clump up into boogers in the past so ever since it has been cornmeal.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I've had some cloggage using a syringe - you can avoid it by technique.

I pull the plunger out and fill the body, then replace the plunger slow/careful. Then I invert the syringe and let the chunkulate start to head for the bottom again - then inject while everything is in transit.

If you let all the chunks congregate in the outlet of the syringe, then try to inject - that's when you will probably clog the valve stem. 

I was injecting a mix with slime and added rubber chunk - very likely to clog.

On that note, I'm giving up on the rubber chunk. I made one batch with them, had serious booger issues. Made a second batch, but soaked the rubber chunks in ammonia water overnight trying to "passivate" them - but only helped a wee bit. Guess I'll be on the cornmeal bandwagon now.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> If you let all the chunks congregate in the outlet of the syringe, then try to inject - that's when you will probably clog the valve stem.


THEORETICALLY, if you use xantham gum it keeps the chunks in suspension so they don't settle in the syringe...


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## Neogen (Apr 23, 2016)

SJDude said:


> A quick question I haven't seen a mentioned. For those that use pepper, or cornmeal, or xantham gum have any of you;
> 
> a) used a syringe to add fluid through a presta valve stem instead of breaking the bead and adding sealant directly?
> 
> ...


Use 60 ml syringe all the time. I do shake the sealant bottle well before pouring into the syringe. After some use ~5 time I discard the syringe and use a new one.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

I used to not want to break the bead and got plugged up stems and syringes all the time. Then I tried it and it's not big deal. It's a little tougher with CushCore in now but better than plugged up stems that won't let air in or out or both.

I got a few of *these condiment squeeze bottles.* You can chop off as little or as much of the tip to allow your sealant and chunkulators to flow through easily. With this tip I just need to get a tire level in and pop off the smallest portion of the tire.

They come in different sizes as well. I've found the 8oz is what I use with my Home Brew. My brew is thicker than most everyone else so on a brand new tire I need 8oz minimum to seal and have some left over for punctures. When I refill I put in 4oz. It's more than everyone else but my Sentinel with Cush Core is approaching 36# so sealant weight is the least of my worries. Well... my sealant may be 2# of that 36#


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

I agree with big0Mike about using condiment squeeze bottles. They are very cheap and they work as good or better than a syringe. They are also easier to clean.


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## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

I just break the bead and pour it in right out of the jug. 

You want to maintain about a 6" long puddle.


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## gnatsOnTeeth (Mar 2, 2019)

Regarding mold latex - early in this home brew thread, read remarks about condiment bottles. I had some 2 oz Wheels Manufacturing bearing bottles. With a few inches of 5/16 tubing it's easy to fill a presta valve with core out, or bottle nozzle straight into a schrader.

Here is another use - mold latex can be used to help seat a tire. It dries quickly and its stickiness attracts it to the bead and locks in the rush of air. A paintbrush made a mess - but the 2 oz bottle nozzle is perfect for applying a line around the bead. The tire linked right up. This is all non UST/TLR, but on a 21 mm ID rim and tire with reasonable thread count and sidewall.


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Just a general touching base post - still using my BAMFS which is the Stan's clone with great success (Borat voice). High-performing and lasts about as long as Stan's ever did, shorter life in the warmer mos., longer in the cooler. Only small boogers from time to time. Love this stuff.

1 part liquid latex "Mold Builder" brand - Amazon
2 parts distilled water
2 parts propylene glycol -Amazon or Tractor Supply
0.3 parts ammonia - Ace Hardware "Professional/Janitorial Strength"
1 tbs (or more depending on application) cooked cornmeal - Kroger

Used to also throw a pinch of xanthan gum powder in there but I don't think it does anything.

No need to change what works for me.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

TiGeo said:


> Just a general touching base post - still using my BAMFS which is the Stan's clone with great success (Borat voice). High-performing and lasts about as long as Stan's ever did, shorter life in the warmer mos., longer in the cooler. Only small boogers from time to time. Love this stuff.
> 
> 1 part liquid latex "Mold Builder" brand - Amazon
> 2 parts distilled water
> ...


I might try this next. Do you actually cook the cornmeal? How essential is the distilled water?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

s0ckeyeus said:


> I might try this next. Do you actually cook the cornmeal? How essential is the distilled water?


Here's what I use. Tap water is prob fine but a gal of distilled water is like a dollar so why not use it...less impurities.









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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

TiGeo said:


> ...
> 1 part liquid latex "Mold Builder" brand - Amazon
> 2 parts distilled water
> 2 parts propylene glycol -Amazon or Tractor Supply
> ...


All quantities are proportional except the last, which is absolute. How much total liquid do you wind up with to put that 1 tbs into? 1qt, 1 gal, 55 gal?


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## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Lone Rager said:


> All quantities are proportional except the last, which is absolute. How much total liquid do you wind up with to put that 1 tbs into? 1qt, 1 gal, 55 gal?


Sorry should have mentioned it. 1 part is a Stan's red scooper.

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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

Got it. Thanks.


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

TiGeo said:


> Here's what I use.


Same stuff I use. But I'm confused as well on "cooked?" It's something you put on meat to cook it with a texture. Do you actually do anything with the corn meal before adding it to the BAMFS?


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

ppl is there anything can be used instead of ammonia?
using it with amonia but just want to get rid of it.


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## Kolchak (May 15, 2017)

I've never added any extra ammonia at all and haven't had any issues. There is already ammonia in the mold builder latex.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

cka3o4nuk said:


> ppl is there anything can be used instead of ammonia?
> using it with amonia but just want to get rid of it.


It's all about pH. You could replace the ammonia, but only with something of a similar pH.

Good luck with that:

pH of Common Bases
Many common cleaners are basic. Usually, these chemicals have very high pH. Blood is close to neutral, but is slightly basic.

7.0 to 10 - Shampoo
7.4 - Human Blood
7.4 - Human Tears
7.8 - Egg
around 8 - Seawater
8.3 - Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate)
around 9 - Toothpaste
10.5 - Milk of Magnesia
11.0 - Ammonia
11.5 to 14 - Hair Straightening Chemicals
12.4 - Lime (Calcium Hydroxide)
13.0 - Lye
14.0 - Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH)


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## cka3o4nuk (Jul 17, 2013)

The reason why i seek for alternative to ammonit is that it ruins tires(
mabe hydroxide calcium will work
a lot of ph up for plants are on it


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

cka3o4nuk said:


> The reason why i seek for alternative to ammonit is that it ruins tires(mabe hydroxide calcium will work)


Odd that this page has been rolling for 11 years and there hasn't been a barrage of people asking, "why are my tires falling apart quicker with [sealant of choice] in them?"

I likely put the LEAST amount of miles on my tires of anyone in this thread and that I know and I've never noticed the ammonia in my Home Brew causing the tire to degrade faster.

I think you are worrying about a non-issue.


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

Ugh I hate tubes. 

I've been running home brew sealant in a set of tubes on my old townie bike. 

Recently I got a pinch flat riding the old bike far harder on trails than I should have. 

Despite gobs of wet sealant, I couldn't get it to seal. 

I'm not too particular these days about my mix - I like it wet. 

I would assume if its not sealing, its because I don't have enough ammonia? Or too much water not enough latex?


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## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

PHeller said:


> Ugh I hate tubes.
> 
> I've been running home brew sealant in a set of tubes on my old townie bike.
> 
> ...


Or it's a gash/slice or too big.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

My experience is that sealant does not work at all in thin innertubes. I know it works in thick tubes such as "thorn proof" ones. 

But a big hole will be the end. Even back when I was running sealant/thorn proofs - about once a year I would hit something (like a complete mesquite branch covered in thorns!) that would cause the tire to go fully flat right then. Time to pull everything apart, spend 1/2 hour or so pulling aaaaaalllllll the thorns that had accumulated in the tire out so I could swap in my skinny little spare tube and make it home.

When I would examine the old thick tube, it would have fibers sticking out of all the holes that had sealed, but thin tubes don't seem to be enough to get the sealing parts to stick. I'd always find all the carrier fluid that had leaked out between the tire and tube.


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## jerrduford (Sep 14, 2015)

*Latex coagulating and clumping early?*









This has been happening to my homebrew often lately. This is just over a week since I last cleaned out the tire and replaced with fresh sealant where the same thing had happened. I noticed it because the wheel is out of balance and actually can be felt easily above 20 on pavement.

When I open the tire it looks like this, and a very thin green liquid with no latex in it pooled at the bottom.. smells sour kind of like beer that sat in the sun.

I tried adding more ammonia to the mixture to prevent, but it hasn't helped. This is about 8-10 days, where the tires never sat more than 24 hours without a ride...

The latex that's formed is close to half inch thick and is like a putty consistency, but difficult to peel off.

Anyone ever have this issue with home brew?


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## Andy13 (Nov 21, 2006)

I have never had a solid puddle like that unless the wheel/tire sat for an extended period of time unused. 8-10 days seems really unusual to me. Was this a new batch? New mix for you? or a batch sitting for a long period in it's container?


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## jerrduford (Sep 14, 2015)

Andy13 said:


> I have never had a solid puddle like that unless the wheel/tire sat for an extended period of time unused. 8-10 days seems really unusual to me. Was this a new batch? New mix for you? or a batch sitting for a long period in it's container?


A fairly new brew. The brew itself is the green container in the background of the pic. I think the real issue here is that I used 'liquid latex' from amazon. One of the 7$/pint varieties in the white containers. While that stuff seals great, it seems to like to separate itself from the other ingredients and then settle and partially solidify... that's my theory anyways.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

You gotta use enough ammonia to keep the latex from congealing. If you use CO2, its acidity will neutralize the ammonia to a degree and has the potential to cause the latex to congeal in the tire.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

jerrduford said:


> View attachment 1274195
> 
> 
> This has been happening to my homebrew often lately. This is just over a week since I last cleaned out the tire and replaced with fresh sealant where the same thing had happened. I noticed it because the wheel is out of balance and actually can be felt easily above 20 on pavement.
> ...


I had the same thing happen recently. I had to ship off my main rear wheel to get relaced and was using a back-up wheel that I set up right before a trip to NC. Inevitably, I got a puncture that my sealant wouldn't seal. When I went to install a tube, I saw that same blob of latex.

My sealant has been working fine until recently. When I pulled off my tire to ship in my one wheel, I found balls of latex rolling around inside and some clear liquid. I'm thinking maybe it's just old. It looks fine in the container, not separated or anything.


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## Lone Rager (Dec 13, 2013)

^^^ did you use CO2 by any chance?


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

Lone Rager said:


> ^^^ did you use CO2 by any chance?


Nope. I've never used CO2.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

TiGeo said:


> Just a general touching base post - still using my BAMFS which is the Stan's clone with great success (Borat voice). High-performing and lasts about as long as Stan's ever did, shorter life in the warmer mos., longer in the cooler. Only small boogers from time to time. Love this stuff.
> 
> 1 part liquid latex "Mold Builder" brand - Amazon
> 2 parts distilled water
> ...


I need to whip up a new batch of sealant, and I'm considering this recipe. Just want to check the ratio for the cornmeal. Are you considering 1 part Mold Builder as the whole container? I'm assuming the amount of cornmeal can be pretty fluid, but a bit of a reference would be helpful.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

s0ckeyeus said:


> I need to whip up a new batch of sealant, and I'm considering this recipe. Just want to check the ratio for the cornmeal. Are you considering 1 part Mold Builder as the whole container? I'm assuming the amount of cornmeal can be pretty fluid, but a bit of a reference would be helpful.


Parts is parts, as the old commercial said. If you take the tub of mold builder as 1 part - all the other "parts" will be based on that 16oz amount.

My old recipe, I would indeed use the latex tub as the "part" - and use the tub as a measurement for all the other liquids (which also helped rinse all the latex out).

Enjoy. YMMV.

OOPS! I see your dilemma - cornmeal is not listed as a "part". Have to look up some older TiGeo comments to find out for sure, but chunkulant is not a critical component, whereas the ratio of latex/water/PG is a bit critical - but not outrageously so.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

TiGeo said:


> Just a general touching base post - still using my BAMFS which is the Stan's clone with great success (Borat voice). High-performing and lasts about as long as Stan's ever did, shorter life in the warmer mos., longer in the cooler. Only small boogers from time to time. Love this stuff.
> 
> 1 part liquid latex "Mold Builder" brand - Amazon
> 2 parts distilled water
> ...





Lone Rager said:


> All quantities are proportional except the last, which is absolute. How much total liquid do you wind up with to put that 1 tbs into? 1qt, 1 gal, 55 gal?





TiGeo said:


> Sorry should have mentioned it. 1 part is a Stan's red scooper.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Here you go.


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## s0ckeyeus (Jun 20, 2008)

wadester said:


> Here you go.


Thanks for digging that up. So if a scoop is about 60 mL, there'd be roughly 8 T of corn meal if treating the Mold Builder as 1 part. :thumbsup:

I might mix up a big batch without the corn meal and add as I go. It just seems like too much of the corn meal would settle and cake at the bottom in a big batch.


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## bde1024 (Feb 14, 2005)

So I'm almost ready to embark on my first home-brew sealant experiment after many year's of Stan's use, and have a couple of questions. I've got 16 oz of Costin Craft Mold Builder, a quart of Slime Tire Sealant for mowers/ATVs, a gallon of RV propylene glycol based anti-freeze, and some regular or polenta corn meal. Based on advice from a couple of my riding buddies who have mixed their own stuff, I was planning to mix all 16 oz of the mold builder, 16 oz of the Slime, 48 oz of the anti-freeze, and a few oz of cornmeal. Since the anti-freeze is pre-mixed with water, do I need to add any more water? Do I need to add any ammonia (the mold builder lists ammonia an ingredient). I do occasionally use CO2 to re-inflate tires in the field. Am I on the right track? Any additional tips would be appreciated.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

Going to start with:


bde1024 said:


> . a gallon of RV propylene glycol based anti-freeze... Since the anti-freeze is pre-mixed with water, do I need to add any more water? ...


What's the ratio of water to PG of that anti-freeze. And was it made with distilled water. What other additives are in it.

Most will mix their brew with distilled water and PG, so they know there are no other chemicals in there.

The most common ratio of dwG is 1:1, like the WSS V3 mix of 16 oz to 16 oz. 
BAMFS V2.0 was 2:2.3, but V3.0 went to 2:2 (1:1). 
Steve_S was 1.6:1.2. Thuren 2.25: 1.75.

The TiGeo recipie that Wadster quotes just above, is the OSS (Open Source Sealant) BAMFS v3.0. 
1 part Stand Red Scoup is ~ two oz.



bde1024 said:


> ... Do I need to add any ammonia (the mold builder lists ammonia an ingredient)...


Original BAMFS used Slime ATV, no ammonia; BAMFS v3.0 uses no Slime, but has ammonia.

WSS V3 used Slime & ammonia. 
I have WWS V3 recorded as 16 oz each of distilled/RO water, PG, Slime tubeless, latex mold builder, with 8 oz of ammonia. Add 8 oz of rubber crumb and a handful of dryer lint.

So it sounds like your buddies were mixing something similar to WSS V1, but with cornmeal.



bde1024 said:


> ... I do occasionally use CO2 to re-inflate tires in the field. ...


Not any more. The CO2 will neutralize the ammonia and your latex will start to setup.

Are your tires tubeless ready or do they need to be sealed first?
Clean, rinse and dry the tire first. 
Wipe with solvent (below), scrub to abrade the surface and wipe the solvent away. 
Brush with rubber cement or Shoe Goo, thinned with solvent (xylene, toluene, "art cement thinner", white gas / naptha).


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## bde1024 (Feb 14, 2005)

Thanks for the response. I'm new to this thread, so you're losing me on some of the acronyms, but here's what I can say: The RV anti-freeze lists PG, water, and "proprietary rust and corrosion inhibiters" as ingredients, but doesn't show the proportions, or say whether the water is distilled. It's rated to -50F. Tires are all tubeless ready Maxxis or Schwalbes. I use CO2 only for temporary field fixes, and would clean out and re-fill the sealant afterward, so I'm not too worried about that. Still not clear on whether adding water or ammonia is needed.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

bde1024 said:


> ...The RV anti-freeze lists PG, water, and "proprietary rust and corrosion inhibiters" as ingredients, but doesn't show the proportions, or say whether the water is distilled. It's rated to -50F.
> ...
> Still not clear on whether adding water or ammonia is needed.


Adding water or not depends on the AF (anti-freeze) ratio of PG to water. At rated to -50F, it's likely close to 1:1. Although unknown ratio, it's _probably_ close enough to be usable, except for those additives.

Unless someone has used that exact product in its current formulation, you don't know if those additives are going to make the latex set up or prevent the brew from sealing when you want it to.

For both not knowing the ratio and primarily due to the unknown additives unknown affect on the brew, I would recommend NOT using that RV anti-freeze.

Distilled/RO water should be cheap and readily available. 
PG (propylene glycol) -Amazon or Tractor Supply.

Both recent recipes, WSS V3 and OSS BAMFS v3.0 use water & PG, not RV anti-freeze.

Ammonia

WSS V3 uses Slime tubeless, latex MB and ammonia.

Formulas: BAMFS v3.0, v1g, v1h, Eurotrash, Steve_S, Thuren, all:
- use no Slime, 
- use latex MB and ammonia.

So if you're going with a proven recipe using latex MB, you'll be adding ammonia.

As you have the Slime ATV, mixing a WSS V3 with Slime ATV instead of Slime tubeless seems reasonable to me. As does going with the cornmeal instead of dryer lint and sourcing rubber crumb. In my table that I recorded various formulas in, I don't see any Slime combined with polenta. I suspect, but do not know, that polenta is o.k. to use with Slime.

The WSS V3 is 


> WSS V3 used Slime & ammonia.
> I have WWS V3 recorded as 16 oz each of distilled/RO water, PG, Slime tubeless, latex mold builder, with 8 oz of ammonia. Add 8 oz of rubber crumb and a handful of dryer lint.


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## Canoe (May 10, 2011)

If you go ahead and experiment with that anti-freeze, then in two, five, ten years, if you want to remake that brew, who knows what will be in that AF then, if it's still available. If you use distilled/RO water & PG, both of those will be available and 99 44/100 % reproducable.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

I recall my experiments with PG antifreeze. I'd been using waycheap regular (ethylene glycol) antifreeze, worked ok - but when I tried some "notox" antifreeze (no cheap version then) I put a little latex in a small jar, added a similar amount of notox, started to shake to mix - and had a rubber ball.
Lesson taken: the more fancy the additive package in the antifreeze, the more likely that it will react with the latex.

I think it was Eurotrash that led us all to using "pure" ingredients such as distilled water and food grade USP propylene glycol (about $25/gallon at amazon or tractor supply).

Ammonia that I've been using is "clear" or "sudsing" or "all purpose cleaner" available in the cleaning aisle with the mops/etc. I note that the MSDS lists this as 10% ammonia/90% water, but the labels say ammonia and "surfactant", which would be a soap or detergent in water. I note that way back in the dark ages when I got on this bandwagon that windshield washer fluid was an ingredient - but back then, it was ammonia water with blue dye. Now it's water & detergent. With blue dye. Gotta have the ammonia to keep the pH where the latex stays liquid. Not worried about the "surfactant".

Chunkulants. I've always liked and used Slime - which is a mix of propylene glycol, distilled water and fibers, with rubber crumb(RC) in some versions. When I couldn't get the RC version of Slime, I started trying to add my own RC - but it was a booger magnet, even if soaked in ammonia. Corn meal is a good, nonproblematic equivalent for the "crumb" chunk. The fiber chunk can be sourced from dryer lint, dog hair etc. I've thought of using paper making fiber - cotton "linters", but haven't as yet. There was some discussion/experimentation with other types of chunkulants. We like long thin fibers, and crumbs - we tried glitter (in several sizes) but it was better at getting into the tire bead area and causing problems than plugging punctures - altho it made the sealant boogers sooooo pretty!

I note that the liquid latex is actually a chunkulant as well, working in concert with the "big" crumbs and the small fibers to seal holes.

The proportions are to get a good blend of chunkulant (latex, fiber, crumb) in a soupy mixture that will move around and coat everything.

The liquid carrier contains a glycol (ethylene or propylene) because that stuff does NOT like to evaporate. Or freeze. Water is in there to dilute the glycol and give you soup instead of syrup. This is usually around 1:1 mix just because that seems to be an industry standard for enhancing the best of both.

Clear as mud?

I'm about to mix a fresh batch:
mold builder latex (16 oz)
slime/w RC (16oz) - remember this is about 50% water/PG mix
cornmeal (8oz) - presoaked in liquid below
and 40oz of liquid:
"clear" ammonia - 90% water, might just use this as the "water"
distilled water
USP Propylene Glycol

5 pints will fill my 3 qt mixermate jug with freeboard to mix. And last for a year or so....


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Hey Wadester, good to see you're still mixing.

I'm still mixing the "pure" WSS w/ammonia for the mtb clubhouse, it performs well for us. We go through a (80 oz.) batch or two a year. I finally just marked the ingredient levels on the clear plastic jug, in the right mixing order, so it's just pour to the next line and shake, repeat with next ingredient. I've used up to three year old mix, still like new. Cheers!


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

I use antifreeze in my mix, plus auto-slime (more PG). I did an experiment a few weeks ago in negative F temps and it sealed up just fine. I don't seem to have any sealant issues down to -20F and I don't go much lower than that, although coming up on the iditarod ride to McGrath, I foresee -40 possible. I mix with water and my other additives and there probably ends up being a bit more water than PG, but when sealant freezes it usually goes "back to normal" when the temps increase, with no ill effects. So whether it'll go to -40 and remain semi fluid remains to be seen, but I don't anticipate any big issues. Been doing it for years like this and works well IMO.


----------



## DWDW (Oct 7, 2005)

Does anyone have a Canadian source for Propylene Glycol and Ammonia?


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

Farm/feed stores, and supermarket cleaning supply aisle, down here.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...DsWgvIYLJZmCv9KwUxK6srK0UyH9kj0kaAmpvEALw_wcB

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-Clear-Ammonia-All-Purpose-Cleaner-64-Fl-Oz/642113336

Apparently laws vary... just trying to help.


----------



## DWDW (Oct 7, 2005)

bsieb said:


> Farm/feed stores, and supermarket cleaning supply aisle, down here.
> 
> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...DsWgvIYLJZmCv9KwUxK6srK0UyH9kj0kaAmpvEALw_wcB
> 
> ...


Thanks. unfortunately, those links aren't available in Canada. I fear that sourcing this stuff will eliminate the cost savings. I did see Propylene Glycol on the UFA website, but am not sure how much it costs, or whether it is easily available.

EDIT: Found some ammonia - https://www.homehardware.ca/en/900ml-ammonia-all-purpose-cleaner/p/4521716


----------



## bsieb (Aug 23, 2003)

DWDW said:


> Thanks. unfortunately, those links aren't available in Canada. I fear that sourcing this stuff will eliminate the cost savings. I did see Propylene Glycol on the UFA website, but am not sure how much it costs, or whether it is easily available.
> 
> EDIT: Found some ammonia - https://www.homehardware.ca/en/900ml-ammonia-all-purpose-cleaner/p/4521716


RV antifreeze is diluted PG.

https://www.ufa.com/products/glycol-p

You could ask them maybe? Just a thought...


----------



## Trinimon (Aug 6, 2019)

DWDW said:


> Does anyone have a Canadian source for Propylene Glycol and Ammonia?


Absolute Zero from CrappyTire has the highest percentage of PG in it. 30-60% according to the msds. I tried adding some with Stans and it mixed well with no adverse effects.


----------



## arc (Sep 9, 2004)

I get it from Shoppers Drug Mart. You have to order it but it normally only takes a day.


----------



## Miker J (Nov 4, 2003)

Where/what are you folks doing for latex?

I've always just done the 16 or 32oz mold builder by Catsting Crafts.

Any other better choices out there?

Time for me to mix up a new batch of sealant.

Not interested in saving a few pennies on the latex itself. More interested in getting fresh, high quality latex.


----------



## client_9 (Apr 28, 2009)

*$?*

Hey,
Approximately what does the DIY sealant cost per ounce?

This recipe, for example...

36oz distilled water
28oz Propylene Glycol
2oz Ammonia*
16oz Liquid Latex
Cornmeal

thanks!


----------



## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Well then, let's see;
Distilled water? Less than 1 USD/gallon
Ammonia? Less than 2 USD/ 1/2 gallon
Cornmeal? About 5 USD/5 lbs
Propylene Glycol? Tractor supply says $25/gallon
Latex Mold Builder? Used to be 10 USD/16oz, but now it's 20 USD/16oz

So - to get started it's $55. Latex has always been a one-shot for me, but with the price double maybe it's time to try something other that "Castin Craft" mold builder.


----------



## Jayem (Jul 16, 2005)

client_9 said:


> Hey,
> Approximately what does the DIY sealant cost per ounce?
> 
> This recipe, for example...
> ...


I don't use cormeal, I use automotive slime in it's place. Also, I had to sub in latex caulk this last time around due to closed stores and COVID. I eventually got my mold builder back, which is easier to work with. The latex (w/o silicone) caulk needed about 2x the ammonia to stay liquid and not clump up. Benefit though was it's dirt cheap compared to mold builder. You can usually find sales for michaels for like 50% of when you buy two or two for one fairly easily.


----------



## Richard Muller (May 18, 2009)

wadester said:


> I recall my experiments with PG antifreeze. I'd been using waycheap regular (ethylene glycol) antifreeze, worked ok - but when I tried some "notox" antifreeze (no cheap version then) I put a little latex in a small jar, added a similar amount of notox, started to shake to mix - and had a rubber ball.
> Lesson taken: the more fancy the additive package in the antifreeze, the more likely that it will react with the latex.
> 
> I think it was Eurotrash that led us all to using "pure" ingredients such as distilled water and food grade USP propylene glycol (about $25/gallon at amazon or tractor supply).
> ...


Just check the order in which you mix. A few experiments proved fruitless as I did not follow the mixing order. Following Eurotrash instructions prevented those premature boogers.


----------



## NTwoO (Jul 18, 2020)

Hi, I became a member here to do my home brew investigation further. This thread is a hell of a read and I guess no-one read the whole lot, me neither . The standard mix I've disttilled to 
2pt Propylene Glycol - for antifreeze properties in cold weather
0.3pt 10% Ammonia (Percentage strength not mentioned everywhere and handy to know if you happen to stumble upon 15%, 20% or 25%) - Keeps the latex fluid and evaporates upon exposure to the air
1pt Latex - none of the recipes mention the thickness of the latex. The thickness differs between different brands. The one I can get is 3500 mPas. This is quite thick compared to other brands...
2pt Demi water 
and the coagulating agent of your choice, be it tumbledryer lint, coffee grinds, hair of dog, glitter, rubber pellets, corn starch, semolina or other "secret ingredient". 

No for some questions: 

if you're running in an environment where the temperatures are not that high, I'm wondering if you could lower the propylene glycol level and replace it with water. They both have similar vapor pressures (volatility)

Will replacing the propylene glycol with ethanol or methanol improve the sealing performance? The vapor pressure of propylene glycol is similar to water, but the ehanol or methanol are both far more volatile. 

The flammability should not be a big problem when it is diluted enough.

Edited to add the Latex and the viscosity of the latex.


----------



## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Water and PG are not even close in vapor pressure:

Propylene Glycol:0.08 mm Hg at 68 °F (20 C); 0.13 mm Hg at 77° F (25 C)

Water:17.5 mm Hg at 68 °F (20 C); 23.8 mm Hg at 77° F (25 C)

Part of the point of PG in the mix is the much reduced evaporation. But it IS probably what makes the wet spots you see at a leak - after all the chunkulation sticks in the hole.


----------



## NTwoO (Jul 18, 2020)

Thanks for the addition. It is even worse than water... Even more a reason to try the ethanol or methanol


----------



## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

At 20C, ethyl alcohol vapor pressure is 44.6 mm Hg. 

It will evaporate right thru your tire, and you will be left with a booger. 

Water is bad enough about evaporating out of the tire.

But HEY! Do the mix document the results. Come back and let us know.


----------



## NTwoO (Jul 18, 2020)

I have an old rim, so can run a few tests with a mixture using e/methyl alcohol. Will include it in my experiments.


----------



## goodmojo (Sep 12, 2011)

Hobby lobby has increased in price (16.99) but they always have a 40% off coupon. Michaels for whatever reason is much more expensive.

Im using

16 oz mold builder
16 oz PG
32 oz water (can add more to make it more liquidy)
6 oz 10% ammonia (available as janitors ammonia. I got it from ace hardware)

I stopped adding any crumbs/xantham since it seemed to work without it.

I pour it into 2 ball canning jars and fill an old stans container. It will last forever in the canning jars.

I noticed that some people are using 32oz pg instead of just 16. Does that work ok? It would essentially create another 16 oz of sealant.

This is the ammonia I use
https://www.acehardware.com/departm...-and-disinfectants/all-purpose-cleaners/10183

In the past I used windex which made the sealant a nice blue color

I dont get any boogers just a thin layer of latex that stops weeping and seals the bead. I feel like I havent gotten any punctures in years so I have no idea if it will seal a puncture.


----------



## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

goodmojo said:


> Hobby lobby has increased in price (16.99) but they always have a 40% off coupon. Michaels for whatever reason is much more expensive.
> 
> Im using
> 
> ...


I haven't followed this thread closely but you are the first person I've seen that does not use equal parts water & PG...

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## big0mike (Jun 11, 2010)

wadester said:


> The fiber chunk can be sourced from dryer lint, dog hair etc. I've thought of using paper making fiber - cotton "linters", but haven't as yet.


My Great Dane passed and the greyhounds I now have don't shed much. I've been growing my beard to around 3/4", about the length that it starts to get annoying, then trim it and put it in a baggie for the next batch.

This last batch I went heavy on the corn meal: 1/2 cup in my standard 16oz latex, 32oz water, 32oz PG mix. Past batches were only on 1/4 cup.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## PHeller (Dec 28, 2012)

The pricing of Casting Craft's Mold Builder has kinda made homebrew less of a bargain, especially now as other brands are lowering prices of pre-mix. I got it with a 20% coupon for $19. When it was $10 or less, you could practically dump it in a tire with some water and would be cheaper and just as effective as Stan's. 

Granted you can make a lot of it, but keeping it liquid and effective is tricky.

Once I'm out of PG and Ammonia, I'll probably quit messing with it. Until then, I gotta source a cheaper option for liquid latex. It's kinda the linchpin of the homebrew. I might try another source of latex from Amazon. 

Then there is cheaper non-latex based stuff, like Berryman's that has me curious. 

I always like to keep track of prices, so as of September 2020: 

PG/Ammonia/Water/Latex - tricky to determine overall price per gallon because in order to get started you need to spend about $50, but $30 (Ammonia and PG) of that lasts through quite a few gallons. Additionally latex could be full price $20-$10 for 16oz, but we'll aim on the high end and say: 1 gallon for $25 


Non-Latex Options:
Berryman's Tire Seal-R - 1 gallon at Amazon $35
Quadboss Tire Sealant - 1 gallon at Amazon $57

Latex Options:
Slime STR (artificial latex) - 1 gallon at Northwest Bike for $65
TruckCo Tire Cream II - 1 gallon from TruckerCo for $80
Stans - 1 gallon (4x32oz) is $112


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## sfkickz (Sep 29, 2016)

PHeller said:


> The pricing of Casting Craft's Mold Builder has kinda made homebrew less of a bargain, especially now as other brands are lowering prices of pre-mix.
> 
> I always like to keep track of prices, so as of September 2020:
> 
> ...


i've always felt that stans is the gold standard. it hasn't let me down once, but the price can feel a bit ridiculous, especially when you understand how little it must cost them to make.

i just mixed WSS+ for the first time.

1 PG
2 H2O
1 latex
1 slime
0.5 ammonia
corn meal

hoping itll go well and if not, stan's is always there.

i'm with you though, as homebrew gets less cost-effective, it starts making less and less sense.


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## bikelite01 (Dec 28, 2013)

The ridealongside youtube channel says he has been using below with good results:
2 parts water
1 part rv antifreeze (splash brand, -50F, biodegradable; propylene glycol)
1 part mold builder
2-3 tablespoon corn tortilla mix (or masa harina; he called it cornmeal but pictured the masa harina), if parts are in cups


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## slcpunk (Feb 4, 2004)

PHeller said:


> The pricing of Casting Craft's Mold Builder has kinda made homebrew less of a bargain, especially now as other brands are lowering prices of pre-mix. I got it with a 20% coupon for $19. When it was $10 or less, you could practically dump it in a tire with some water and would be cheaper and just as effective as Stan's.
> 
> Granted you can make a lot of it, but keeping it liquid and effective is tricky.
> 
> ...


Interested to hear on Berryman's. I've been using TruckerCo with good success. I find buying too much leads to waste - a gallon is way too much. Like you said, when doing my homebrew I always fought with trying to keep it stable before I used it. ( Whether I premixed all the mold builder or tried to do it in batches )


----------



## Dobmaster (Dec 13, 2005)

WoW! This topic is a very interesting read! Thanks for sharing your experience.

i can see some serious price difference (almost half the price) between propylene glycol and _ethylene_ glycol.

Ethylene glycol, also known as monoethylene glycol or MEG. Anybody tried a recipe with this stuff?

Also, is there a preference between using Burma latex (pure latex from the trees+ammonia) and other latex that are pre-vulcanised?The Burma stuff also seams quite cheaper.

thanks!


----------



## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Dobmaster said:


> WoW! This topic is a very interesting read! Thanks for sharing your experience.
> 
> i can see some serious price difference (almost half the price) between propylene glycol and _ethylene_ glycol.
> 
> ...


1) Propylene glycol is chosen for the fact that it's NOT poisonous, plus you buy it pure vs ethylene glycol which is mostly available as antifreeze - which means additives that will probably turn your liquid latex into a rubber ball. But you do you. In pure form they are about the same.
2)The point of using liquid latex is so that it will polymerize as it comes thru a puncture. Pre-vulcanized sounds like a bad idea, but again, feel free to try and report back!


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## Dobmaster (Dec 13, 2005)

But is ethylene glycol poisonous?(never mind… I look it up and wow…even if it’s more expensive, I will go for the food grade glycol)

I did find a source for pure Ethylene glycol and like I said the price is almost half of PG… but you need to buy in 20L(5gallon)…




__





Search results for: 'glycol'







www.chemcentral.com






My question about the vulcanised latex was because lots of the molding latex for mask that I found used prevulcanised latex ( Pliatex ) so I was under the impression that it was a must for our application. I will go for the Burma stuff! 


thanks for your answers! I will report back at some point.


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## Dobmaster (Dec 13, 2005)

Ok so this is the observation I have to report.
For the basic formula of 1 latex, 1 PG, 2 water 

It did plug a puncture that the regular Orange brand failed miserably to do. (Regular Stan’s was also able to plug that small 1mm puncture).

I did some comparative with the regular Stan’s sealant.

Overnight in the -20c freezer
Stan’s did not freeze one bit.
My formula froze… not a solid block, but kind of like ice-cream 

Im no professional chemist but I did brew some pretty good IPA ´s before so why not play with my home brew gear. So I took some PH and density reading.

Stan’s PH was at 10,48
My formula PH was at 11.49
My guess is that this can help to have the same level of amonia we find in the Stan’s

Density reading of Stan’s was at 17 Brix
Density reading of my formula was at 3.5 Brix
I guess that This can help to tune the level of PG and latex

Looking at a PG freezing point chart can also help fine tune the PG level



https://corecheminc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Freeze-Point-Chart-GlycoChill-Propylene-Glycol-Heat-Transfer-Fluid.pdf


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## Dobmaster (Dec 13, 2005)

Ok so did some punctures test on the subzero mix 1h2o, 1mold builder, 2 PG. no crumble or fiber. It fix the 1 and 2mm round hole in. A few seconds… but the 3mm drill bit was to much. My guess is that some fibers or crums of some kind would of help to fix it enough to ride back home…
The mix was also full liquid after spending over 24h at -20c so I’m confident it would be ok down to -33.5c or lower as stated on the glycol chart.
I did have some issues to no have rubber ball buildup wile mixing? I think it’s the high level of PG cause this… I used my home brew yeast starter mixer to help


----------



## Pack66 (Jul 7, 2015)

Several year's ago I did a batch and ran out about a year ago. Been meaning to mix a new batch, but I'm not aware of what's changed from the last time and I can't find my old recipe (which worked fantastic in thorny Arizona). Looks like I have 12oz of ATV Slime, R/V Antifreeze for the PG and Ammonia. I'll need to buy some mold builder.

Anyway, what's the best ratio that folks are using these days?


----------



## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

Anyone Found alternative to (castin craft brand) latex? Since the price of that has shot up it almost makes it not worth it to do you own. I found other "liquid latex" on amazon, but not sure if they work.. The one titled "
*2X Pint Size Portion Of Latex*
Brand: Fun World
" is a heck of a deal, but curious if that will work as a replacement to castin craft.


----------



## Pack66 (Jul 7, 2015)

combfilter said:


> Anyone Found alternative to (castin craft brand) latex? Since the price of that has shot up it almost makes it not worth it to do you own. I found other "liquid latex" on amazon, but not sure if they work.. The one titled "
> *2X Pint Size Portion Of Latex*
> Brand: Fun World
> " is a heck of a deal, but curious if that will work as a replacement to castin craft.


I found this on Amazon for $12.99:








Amazon.com: HV-65 Pint of High Viscosity Natural Liquid Latex Mold Making Rubber


Shop FX Latex at the Amazon Arts, Crafts & Sewing store. Free Shipping on eligible items. Save on everyday low prices.



www.amazon.com





Haven't tried it yet, but this YT channel has used it:


----------



## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

Checking in to say I'm still using my BAMFS home brew/Stan's clone and it always delivers.


----------



## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

@TiGeo What brand of Liquid Latex you using these days? Still Castin Craft?


----------



## TiGeo (Jul 31, 2008)

combfilter said:


> @TiGeo What brand of Liquid Latex you using these days? Still Castin Craft?


Yep...off the Amazon. Is there anything new/better?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

Not sure, it's kind of why I was asking. CastinCraft is no longer a cheap as it once was from Michaels and so I was wondering if any of the OG's had been using other liquid latex's' off amazon. Like this one. It's much cheaper.








Amazon.com: Liquid Latex Pint Bottle Standard : Toys & Games


Buy Liquid Latex Pint Bottle Standard: Shop top fashion brands Party Supplies at Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY and Returns possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com


----------



## Dobmaster (Dec 13, 2005)

Some scellant company claim to add rust/corrosion inhibitor.

i did notice some premature corrosion on the brass of my presta valves.

and I found Dowfrost. It’s a food grade PG made of 96% PG and 4% inhibitor(top secret stuff). My first reaction was THIS IS THE STUFF THEY( Stan’s and the others) USE!!! Succes!!

Talking to Dow chemical trying to suck up some free samples 😂 they advise NOT to use the Dowfrost as the top secret inhibitor is a acid that will reduse the PH… so it could end up neutralizing the ammonia effect….and end up with the rubber ball of ☠

any input on this acid/base mix… it could be just a question of finding the right balance.


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## Dobmaster (Dec 13, 2005)

Any chemist in here ? 😅
What about Benzotriazole (BTA) as a inhibitor?
I’m getting wayyyyy out of my comfort zone here 😂


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## ramsdude47 (Aug 20, 2017)

Obviously DIY sealant is considerable cheaper, but does it work nearly as well as Stan’s/Orange Seal? Particularly in the dry/hot desert?


----------



## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Dobmaster said:


> Any chemist in here ? 😅
> What about Benzotriazole (BTA) as a inhibitor?
> I’m getting wayyyyy out of my comfort zone here 😂


Hmm. Used as a corrosion inhibitor in antifreeze, works with copper - but I recall an experiment waaaay back where good quality nontox antifreeze instantly coagulated latex, so there's that as well.



ramsdude47 said:


> Obviously DIY sealant is considerable cheaper, but does it work nearly as well as Stan’s/Orange Seal? Particularly in the dry/hot desert?


The problem with all of these sealants is that they dry out, out here in the dry/hot desert. I've just refreshed a couple of bikes with new sealant - and the aroma of ammonia will build up around them. So perhaps a monthly shot of ammonia water to keep all the other ingredients wet? 
As long as the sealant is wet, it works great. I can tell when a tire dries out, because it starts losing air.
I will note that I tried Stan's vs DIY back when I started, and the DIY outlasted the Stan's by like 4:1 - that is, stayed wet that much longer. Never tried Orange Seal - have been looking at Sahara sealant


----------



## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

@wadester - Why Sahara over Flatout or Berryman?








Amazon.com: FlatOut Tire Sealant Outdoor Power Equipment Formula - with Valve Core Tool and Replacement Valve Core, Prevent Flat Tires, Seal Leaks, Contains Kevlar, 32-Ounce Bottle, 1-Pack : Automotive


Buy FlatOut Tire Sealant Outdoor Power Equipment Formula - with Valve Core Tool and Replacement Valve Core, Prevent Flat Tires, Seal Leaks, Contains Kevlar, 32-Ounce Bottle, 1-Pack: Tire Care - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com












Amazon.com: Berryman Products 1301 Tire Seal-R Sealing Compound,1-Gallon Bottle : Automotive


Buy Berryman Products 1301 Tire Seal-R Sealing Compound,1-Gallon Bottle: Tire Repair Kits - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com





What's weird is i cannot find any reviews of people actually using those products on mtb wheels/tires. You see a lot of e-bike users using them but nothing about normal mtb's or road bikes even.


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## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

combfilter said:


> Why Sahara over Flatout or Berryman?
> 
> What's weird is i cannot find any reviews of people actually using those products on mtb wheels/tires. You see a lot of e-bike users using them but nothing about normal mtb's or road bikes even.


Simple answer is I hadn't spotted them. Saw Sahara on a moto forum, looked interesting, as do the two you linked. The reality is not that I want to go to commercial products, but that I'm interested in what they're made up of - so maybe I can "borrow" some of their ingredients for my own mix.

DIY mixes consist of two major components; Chunkulation and carrier fluid. The biggest issue with my mix is that the carrier fluid dries out/goes away somehow. Usedtabe the MSDS would list most of the ingredients, but the SDS version only has to show "risky" stuff that is listed by US/EPA(?). Berryman has no ingredients from the lists - so nothing on the Seal-R SDS, Flatout SDS lists only propylene glycol - so not too different from my mix, but claims "permanent"


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## combfilter (Jan 10, 2012)

Yeah, the non drying out is appealing regarding the commercial stuff, but of those 3 above the only that shows a picture of a mtb as a supported application is your sarhara stuff. What looks really attractive about the flatout in relation to the others is that it doesn't leave a residue. Like it just seals and the chunkulation just forms at the hole and that's it. Look at their car tire demo's. That's really appealing to someone like me who switches tires quite a bit depending where I ride/ what race/ what trail/etc. Like once a tire starts that film on the inside it seems like that's when it starts to dry out faster, or forming stans boogers. schwalbe tires seem to be better about not letting that "film" form but eventually it does. 

Also, the commercial stuff is starting to seem cheaper than the DIY stuff we've been doing the last few years as the price of castin craft latex has gone up. It's almost not quite worth it now to DIY in a cost comparison. Now if we could use latex for like costumes instead of castin craft mold builder, then there are really good deals on amazon for that, but nobody seems to have tried it yet.


----------



## wadester (Sep 28, 2005)

Of note is that my current recipe doesn't booger up - probably/possibly the added ammonia, but actually finding out would take lots of experimentation when I would rather ride.

I used a previously acquired castin'craft latex in my recent batch, but my next latex try will be EnvironMolds - but I have to finish a jug'o'sealant first.

I would also note that people reviewing things usually only happens when they're unhappy - so no reviews is better?


----------



## TheKevlarKid (3 mo ago)

you thicken/chunkulate the thin costume latex with Sericin Powder, the cheap costume latex works wonders when you add powdered sericing to it and then let it sit overnight after stirring. it becomes this wierd sliquid that is perfect for clogging punctures when mixed with your fiber of choice.


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## TiJoe (7 mo ago)

Can anyone recommend a good source for liquid latex these days? The last 32oz container I purchased in May 2022, used to have free shipping. The price went up by $1 and now shipping is $8. (About $30% increase in the past 6 months!!!)

Has anyone used any of the Halloween latex mask mixes that appear to be on sale on Amazon? Is the concentration the same as Mold builder?









Amazon.com : Kangaroo's Monster Liquid Latex - 16oz Pint - Creates Monster / Zombie Skin and FX : Beauty & Personal Care


Amazon.com : Kangaroo's Monster Liquid Latex - 16oz Pint - Creates Monster / Zombie Skin and FX : Beauty & Personal Care



www.amazon.com


----------



## MTBeing (Jan 11, 2012)

TiJoe said:


> Can anyone recommend a good source for liquid latex these days? The last 32oz container I purchased in May 2022, used to have free shipping. The price went up by $1 and now shipping is $8. (About $30% increase in the past 6 months!!!)
> 
> Has anyone used any of the Halloween latex mask mixes that appear to be on sale on Amazon? Is the concentration the same as Mold builder?
> 
> ...


I've always used this stuff and it's worked well. I only really have to make one batch per year (for 2 bikes) and it's well worth it.










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