# OT: relationship advice



## Dwayne (Jun 3, 2005)

My reasoning for posting this in the women's lounge is because I'd prefer to get some opinions from a woman's side (and inevitably all the guys lurking in here  ) I've never asked for relationship advice online, I usually use friends to bounce thoughts off of.

Anyway, I'll try to keep it short. 

Graduated two years ago from college. Met girlfriend almost four years ago exactly. Spent quite a bit of time together while in college, but we've spent a ton of time apart since I graduated. She studied abroad a semester after I graduated, but we met up in Europe for two months after that. She graduated a year ago. For the past 1.5 years it's really been rough only seeing each other every other weekend at best, and now she's moved to Atlanta with her family (I'm in PA), so we rarely see each other in the past 3-4 months. We do have some common interests, but I do sometimes really wonder what it would be like to find someone who I could do more things together with like adventure racing, riding (road or mtb), camping, listening to bagpipe music at renaissance festivals, motorcycling, etc (I'm convinced girls like this don't exist though, or are already taken). She's really been pushing for a ring for a little over a year now ($6K ring at least, not in value, but the setting and stones she wants), and doesn't understand what the holdup is (while I'm taking my family's and friends' advice and not rushing into things). So, right now things are extremely shaky.

Am I being an ass for not having bought a ring yet?


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Dwayne said:


> My reasoning for posting this in the women's lounge is because I'd prefer to get some opinions from a woman's side (and inevitably all the guys lurking in here  ) I've never asked for relationship advice online, I usually use friends to bounce thoughts off of.
> 
> Anyway, I'll try to keep it short.
> 
> ...


no - I'd suggest resolving the long distance relationship issue first, and then decide. You know, live in the same town, spend a lot of time together for a year and then decide where your commonalities are. You guys don't care enough about the relationship to at least live in proximity? No excuses now.

Don't forget values; as much as doing things together and common interests are part of a relationship, values are the real cement. Things like money, kids , (how to raise the kids, day care or not ) religion or lack of, similar moral values, where to live, lifestyle... these are all factors that will really weight the sucess of the long haul.

formica ( married 25 years fwiw, in the early years, when when of us moved, the other one went with, long distance lasted about 3 weeks)


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## Bikergal (Oct 10, 2005)

Dwayne said:


> My reasoning for posting this in the women's lounge is because I'd prefer to get some opinions from a woman's side (and inevitably all the guys lurking in here  ) I've never asked for relationship advice online, I usually use friends to bounce thoughts off of.
> 
> Anyway, I'll try to keep it short.
> 
> ...


WOW, are you being an ass?? In my opinion NO!! Crap she wants a ring for 6K. OMG, just buy me the bike of my choice and forget about the RING!!
Long distance relationships are tough, you have to ask yourself what YOU WANT, forget about what we all say, what do you want?? Is this the ONE for you?? If so then I would say get a ring, but if you have reservations then stop now while your ahead. 
It sounds like you have doubts?? If I'm correct then buying a ring is not the way to go. 
Have you both discussed moving closer to eachother?? If not this might help answer some of your own questions, and secondly you pointed out that you wanted a girl that has MORE in common with you right?? Well I'll be the first person to say that if this is what you want then your not ready to marry this girl.

Good luck!!


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## sunnyracegirl (Apr 11, 2004)

Initial impression: after 4 years, you should know if she is the kind of woman you can build a life with. Marriage should have little to do with "being in love" and a lot to do with "can I build a life and a partnership" with this person. Probably time to fish or cut bait.

Other things to keep in mind:
This may be the best it's gonna be for several years. Before getting married, most people are still on their "good behavior." It's kinda like seeing the previews to a movie: they usually show you the best parts. If the previews are bad... that's about as good as it gets.

Why did she move to Atlanta? and not to PA?



Dwayne said:


> wonder what it would be like to find someone who I could do more things together with like adventure racing, riding (road or mtb), camping, listening to bagpipe music at renaissance festivals, motorcycling, etc (I'm convinced girls like this don't exist though, or are already taken).


You would most likely find these women at a 24-hour race. Of course, finding a woman who races, getting to know her, then having her introduce you to her friends, then by extension to the cute aquaintance-friend who rides a motorcycle could take time... They do exist and they're not all taken. The question is, how important is that.. REALLY?

And finally, 6K??!! Do you know what kind of bike you can get with that??!! 

When I was scared to death about marrying my husband (I called off the wedding the first time, then married him a year later), I made a list of all the reasons I wanted to marry him, and all the reasons I did not want to get married. When it finally came down to: Marry him or cut him loose (as it wasn't fair to keep him waiting), I couldn't bear the thought of letting him go and having him marry someone else.

It's been 14 years. 

-sunny


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## Dwayne (Jun 3, 2005)

*formica:* I've been working towards finding a job around DC since that's where she's looking, too. She doesn't like the idea that I want to live closer together first because it makes her feel like she's being judged. Living together isn't an option for her without a ring. She feels that I should absolutely know and have things figured out since we've been together for almost 4 years.

As far as values go, I believe we do share many of the same values.. we get along fine and work well together, and we have a lot of the same views regarding kids, finances, living costs, etc. We both try to take interest in what the other person likes... she loves horses, so sometimes I'll get in the saddle and do my best to giddyup, and I've taken her out on the trails with a spare bike, too. Physically we're of completely different abilities... she's a bit overweight but has been trying to lose it (which I'm supportive of), while I can hold my own in races (not trying to be shallow here, just descriptive). I guess sometimes you just hear about the couples who share their main interests, and I wonder what it's like. I'm not expecting a female clone of me... god no.. but I wonder what it'd be like to share the big things. Maybe I'd find out it's overrated.

*Bikergal:* She's pretty specific about what she wants in terms of a ring (1ct center, 0.5ct sides, three stone platinum setting, etc), which averages about $6-7K. I'm not balking at spending that much if it's something she really wants, but part of me sees some of that money could go towards a house or something. The cost of the ring doesn't make a big difference to me, but I am left wondering sometimes what the big fascination is with them. *shrug*

I'm also left wondering whether I've grown too independent again because of the distance. Maybe that's a factor, too.

*sunnyracegirl:* She's a wonderful person, great personality, and we get along well... would it work out long term? Most likely, I'm very easy going, she usually is, too (maybe not quite as much as me). Her family used to live about 2.5 hours from where I lived, and she was only an hour away while she was still in college... her family moved to Atlanta, and since she didn't have a job in PA or anything, so she moved with them. Living with me wasn't an option since there's no ring yet.

Yeh, I did the Chilli Challenge this past weekend (bike, kayak, and run, took 8th out of 53), and there were at least 10 women/girls competing there my age (24). Considering it was in the mid-45s and rainy, it takes a special (or insane) person to stick it out. And yes, 6K buys a nice bike... or a road bike, kayak, roof rack, workstand, and other goodies, or funding a ride across the US... but that's being selfish.  I make about 40K right now as a software engineer (actively looking for a better position though), so 6-7K is a chunk of change for me. Maybe I should make a list, too, and see what all gets written down...


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Dwayne said:


> formica: I've been working towards finding a job around DC since that's where she's looking, too. She doesn't like the idea that I want to live closer together first because it makes her feel like she's being judged. Living together isn't an option for her without a ring. She feels that I should absolutely know and have things figured out since we've been together for almost 4 years.


4 years but not on a day to day basis? You dont' have to live to gether to spend A LOT of time together?And you think she is afraid of being judged? Oh boy,I bet she can't wait until you are looking at her puking in the toilet from the lastest round of the flu. What does she do that she's so afraid of being judged about?



Dwayne said:


> Bikergal: She's pretty specific about what she wants in terms of a ring (1ct center, 0.5ct sides, three stone platinum setting, etc), which averages about $6-7K. I'm not balking at spending that much if it's something she really wants, but part of me sees some of that money could go towards a house or something. The cost of the ring doesn't make a big difference to me, but I am left wondering sometimes what the big fascination is with them. *shrug*


does any one else see a set of values disparity here? You guys should at least be on the same page about the finanaical and emotional value of a ring...
  
Me, I see a lot of red flags. But it's your life.


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## Dwayne (Jun 3, 2005)

formica said:


> 4 years but not on a day to day basis? You dont' have to live to gether to spend A LOT of time together?And you think she is afraid of being judged? Oh boy,I bet she can't wait until you are looking at her puking in the toilet from the lastest round of the flu. What does she do that she's so afraid of being judged about?


Her reasoning is that we spent 2 years together in college, 2 months in Europe, every other weekend besides that, and talk on the phone every night, so living closer together again wouldn't make sense since I know what she's like (her reasoning). I made the point that being with someone on a day-to-day basis could completely change things, and she says it's just something that can be worked out. I'm not one to judge anyone else by any means, I'm not perfect. I think she's more afraid that I'd "judge" her in the sense that I don't want to be together anymore. I see this as odd reasoning, since I personally would want to be as certain as I can before jumping into engagement/marriage, but then she says that it's been 4 years, etc.



formica said:


> does any one else see a set of values disparity here? You guys should at least be on the same page about the finanaical and emotional value of a ring...
> 
> Me, I see a lot of red flags. But it's your life.


That part has me scratching my head, too. I'm not one to skimp on quality, so, yes, it should be a nice ring... her argument is that it's something she'll wear for the rest of her life, so it should be what she wants... she doesn't care about the cost (i.e. it doesn't need to cost 6K, the actual money spent isn't important), she just knows what she wants in terms of stones, setting, etc, which (unless I find it used or rob a place) works out to that amount. This seems to be one of the few things we don't see eye to eye on. Maybe it's a guy thing... I place more value on what I feel than what I have on my finger. She sees it as a sign of commitment.

I appreciate everyone letting me vent a bit and getting my thoughts out.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

harumph. A real sign of commitment would be, "yes, let's live in the same town and see each other every day: the good the bad and the ugly". A real sign of commitment would be, "let's consider the financial ramifications of a ring that maybe we can't afford". A real sign of commitment is, wanting to know reality and truth about your potential partner, not being afraid of what might happen. 

Wouldn't you rather find out that you don't want to be together before the marriage, instead of getting married on the hopes that you might be able to work things out? How many divorces come out of overlooking things that could be worked out, or not truly knowing a person well enough?
I hope you trust your gut on this, or at least stand up for what YOU think is important.

~f.


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## archer (May 20, 2004)

inevetable male content?

The RING?
I belive in the ring but not THE RING. It is a symbol. IMO too many people, both guys and gals, have been listening to debeers commercials where they spout '2months salary' which is total BS. Something nice is a good idea. Something that just costs lots of money or shouts 'LOOK AT THIS ROCK!' is retarded. My parents got engaged with a pretty small stone by today's standards. When I was getting out of high school they purchased a new set of rings. I have problems with the way everything connected with a wedding is charged at scalper's prices. If you can afford and want to buy a huge rock that's fine but spending yourself into debt is just another hump on the camel to cause problems.

Long distance?
SUX! I know a number of guys and a few women who have been screwed on this sort of thing. To some extent you have to go where you can make a living but I am no fan of long distance relationships. I still think my sister and her husband were total nuts to get married and then remain at opposite ends of the country for darned near a year before she moved to where he worked.

I always wonder when I hear the phrase 'she thinks I should just know'. In this case maybe she is right and you should know if she is what you want. BUT I have heard that same phrase used more than once where she thinks she shouldn't have to tell you what she wants you should just know. Guys never just know. 

What's the quote from Davy Crockett? 'Be sure you're right and then go ahead.' If you aren't sure I'd say you shouldn't do it. If you can imagine spending the rest of your life with this girl that's the first step. If you can't see that then I wouldn't consider it.

That said, I'm still looking.


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## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

*An ass? No.*

We haven't heard her side of the story, but from what you wrote it sounds perfectly reasonable to want to live nearer each other before getting engaged. Even though you've been together 4 years the last 1.5 have been long distance, and you're both young enough that those 1.5 years might have brought significant changes. (I can say this from personal experience, as I'm only a few years older.)

I've never understood the stereotypical woman's desire for an expensive ring, but I think it's a topic on which many couples don't really see eye-to-eye. I think $6k could be better spent on starting your life together (e.g., a house down payment) and that many women think of it as the guy's money rather than money the new couple won't have after they get married. I think there are other women in the WL who might agree with me, but that we're in the minority overall. (FWIW, my fiance proposed without a ring because I was adamantly opposed to wearing one. He eventually talked me into one, but for hundreds of dollars and no diamonds, not thousands of dollars and minimum 1 ct.)

As for maybe finding out that sharing the big things is overrated, that depends entirely on you. My fiance and I share almost all of our interests and we love it, but we recognize that many couples would feel stifled spending as much time together as we do. You definitely won't find someone who shares all your interests, but there are active women out there who share some of them, and not all these active women are taken. Unfortunately, you can't keep your gf on hold while you look for others.

Best of luck.


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## sunnyracegirl (Apr 11, 2004)

*a few more comments...*

Re: the ring
I never wanted an engagement ring. But I did want a family crest ring that I would design and have cast by a goldsmith. I knew that it would cost more than my car at the time, so it became a "one of the days I'll get this" ring. I can understand that she knows what she wants and doesn't care what it costs. It's rather a chunk of change for anyone, though. Perhaps you should both buy it together. A commitment on both sides.

Re: long distance
Before we were married, he graduated and moved out of state. A year later, I graduated and then went to Spain for 6 months. He went to sea (Navy). When we both returned, we were married. I mean, he was on land less than a week and we were married. Obviously we didn't live together before we were married. For almost 1.5 years, we had not even seen each other for more than 8 days at a stretch (and that was about 10 months prior). But I knew he was the right guy. He fit all the critera I had (and it was a long list). Long distance survival depends on the individual.

Re: just "KNOWING"
Even though everything about Steve was right, I was still scared. Up to the moment I said I do, I had terrible doubts. But LOGICALLY he was the right choice. I knew he would be a good partner.I really grew to love him after a few years.

Re: similar interests
When we married, we shared a few common interests, but not all. But our CORE VALUES and family experiences were very similar. They included high respect for:
God, family, kindness, mercy, trust
physical toughness, mental toughness, ingenuity, teamwork
self-reliance, no whining, give your best

All these things are important to both of us, and no matter how our interests have changed over the years, these things remain. They define us. We don't always hit the mark, but we try to remember to aim for it. 

Good for you for really thinking about all this. A lot of people just do what they think is expected of them, and then suddenly look around and realize they're in a very bad situation. This is a lifetime commitment.

-sunny


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## dbblackdiamond (Sep 6, 2005)

Hi Dwayne,

here is what I think ( and I am a guy ) : any couple who gets married without having lived together is crazy. As far as I am concerned, there is a huge, gigantic difference between seeing someone a lot and living with someone. 
When you're not living with someone, you usually see that person at her parents/appartment, which mean that you don't have to deal with the mundane tasks of today's life day in and day out. And that's what breaks couple. You will seldom see a couple jumping at each other's throat for big decision (house, car, ...). It is usually due to small things lie that sock or that magazine that was laying there for the up-tenth time and that has been driving you nuts, or who is going to go grossery shopping or who is going to empty the dishwasher. Those things seem like very little to you, but wait until you're tired and/or crancky and that's when the nuclear blast usually happens.

Whatever her reason is for not wanting to move in is, you really need to think about that. As far as I am concerned, religious beliefs are not a hinderance to moving in together. You can live with someone under the same roof without necessarily having sexual relation with that person. It might make it harder not too though  

Regarding the ring, I have just one thing to say: BS. You can't say that she is not interested in the value of the ring and then say that what she wants is blahblahblah. I am sure she knows (any woman knows that kind of things) the value of what she wants and she should make sure that it is something that you as a couple can afford. What is she going to say when you say that you want her to buy you the following bike: state of the art manually built super light extra strong frame, XTR components all around, awesome fork and read shock. You too can say:" I don't know how much it would cost, but that's what I want." That's what it means to be ready to get married: it is when you can put the good of your couple before what you want, not all the time, but when that kind of money is involved, pretty much all the time. If, from her point of view, her couple needs a 6K ring to work, then jump on the band wagon and ask her for a bike as an engagement gift and see how she reacts.

I apologize for the long response and I wish you good luck. It is not easy and nobody can make that decision for you. The only thing we can do is share our experience and what we have seen others do, but keep in mind that anybody is different and there is no good way or bad way, just YOUR way.

Take care.


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## kept man (Jan 13, 2004)

(elbowing gently): "psssssst ... dude ... listen to Formica. And SunnyRaceGirl. And Bikergal."

I'm sure she's a lovely, perfectly nice lady, but man, there are enough warning gongs sounding that it's like the frickin' Bells of St. Mary's in here. 

I'm also sure you're a nice guy, and just don't want to hurt this person whom you obviously care for, but man ... as much as breaking things off (or just saying not yet) might suck now, remember it'll suck a whole lot more a year or two down the road if things don't work out. 

Forgive me if I'm going too far or am off base, but pressure and/or not wanting to look like a mean bastard and hurt somebody after four years of commitment aren't good reasons to get married. If you're not sure or ready, it's not fair to her or you to go ahead with things. I've already seen that in too many friends' divorces, and I'm all of 28.


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## LJintheUK (Jul 21, 2004)

I think you guys should live together first. You don't need to share a bed, just share some time together. And the ring thing, I thought it was supposed to be a pledge of fidelity and love, not an insane financial burden


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## IttyBittyBetty (Aug 11, 2005)

*Marriage*

I see several potential issues you and your girlfriend really should talk about. She almost seems to be discouraging an honest discussion out of fear that you guys might decide NOT to be together. It is telling of her level of maturity (or a lack of respect for you) that she does not think YOU need to be comfortable with the decision to marry. Why on earth would any girl want to marry a man who wasn't comfortable with it? Ignoring one half of the couple's needs and desires is not a good thing.

You have spent most of your time together apart. I agree with many of the others that you two should spend some time closer together. If she is opposed to living together, you should live in the same town and spend a lot of time together. It is really hard to KNOW someone from a long distance relationship because you are always on your "good" behavior when together. I know this from experience. My BF and I dated long distance for 18 months and every visit together was sort of like a little vacation. We have been living together for half a year now and it is working out great. However, I would NOT have agreed to marry him straightaway before getting to know him close up. BTW - he didn't want to move to where I lived and I didn't want to move where he lived, so we picked a third place we both wanted to move to.

A good chunk of the time you have spent together was when you were fairly young and mostly insulated by college. As a young adult (18-25 IMO), people are trying to figure out who they really are and they may come out of the experince with different ideas about themselves than when they started. You and your GF should really look at how you have developed as people in the last couple of formative years. Being closer geographically will help here too. I also personally think you have not dated enough to know what you want in a mate. You are not sure if you want a wife with similar interests to you yours of one with differences. I can't tell you how tired I am when I hear my mountain bike buddies lament all the time that they WISH their wife was into mountain biking or their other outdoor pursuits. If that was important to them, maybe they should have married an outdoorsy woman in the first place. This gets back a bit to the core values thing. I personally place a lot of value on being able to do outdoorsy things with my mate and I dumped a lot of very nice men who did not meet that important criteria. However, I found that out through dating experience. As you can tell, I am not a big fan of marrying early, since most people I know who did so have divorced, so my bias may be coming out here.

Finally, the RING. You are in the wrong place on this forum to get support for spending that much money on an essentially useless item. I suspect most of us female mountain bikesr like nice jewelery to an extent, but $6-7 grand for a ring?!?!? I personally would be OK with a grand or two. Being a practical person, I'd rather spend the balance on a house downpayment, a car (imagine how tiny your monthly payment would be) a new bike or 
even part of it on a nice honeymoon. She is being selffish and she also clearly doesn't grasp the TEAM aspect of marriage (it's both of your money, not YOURS that she wants to lock up in the ring). Might not hurt her to live on her own too to appreciate the value of all that money.

Finally, IMO if she wants to spend the rest ofher life with you, she should be OK waiting a little bit while you guys get to know each other better as adults. I'll stop here.


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## jkelman (Nov 11, 2004)

*Conversation time*

Were I you, I'd have a very intimate conversation with her (in person) where I lay out all the cards on the table, i.e. why you enjoy her company, but that you have doubts, and why. This will basically give her permission to do the same thing, i.e. be entirely open about how she feels, what she wants, etc. Once this ball gets rolling, you may be surprised at the truths that are uttered from both your lips. Intimate honesty will generally make or break a relationship, in that it destroys lesser relationships and makes important ones that much stronger. I'm not saying that this is ever easy, but it sounds to me like you could use such a device (i.e. one that either makes this relationship stick or moves you on).


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

Dwaye, I almost dated a gal, actually it didn't work out, but she broke a past relationship because she didn't like the ring. I don't know how to feel about it, but I feel it was better that we didn't go out longer. I personally don't care much about a ring than about being together, working things out. But I think that for some women it is a way of expressing commitment. But expecting something too specific and not cheap I think it may be that she will be too demanding. Saying she doesn't care about cost, but that she wants a Ferrari is not too logical. Can you afford the downpayment for a house, house stuff, and such and the ring? Does her idea of a nice, reasonable priced house in a decent neighborhood is the same as yours? Won't spend much in trivial things, does "much money" and "trivial" has the same meaning to both of you?

It's a lot different going out together and driving her to her house afterwards, than both going to the same house, bed and figuring out a lot of stuff every night. It may seem trivial, but after a while some big fights come out of silly issues. I don't know why, but on every talk with my friends the toothpaste drama comes up, one likes to press the toothpaste neatly from a corner, and the other as long as it comes out is perfectly OK.

But anyway, even if you have lived together for years, thing may change, so I don't think that living together is an absolute stuff. She doesn't want you close because she feels you're judging her, why? will that change after marriage? it may seem a silly question, but after marriage, she may feel judged by a lot of stuff you may do, say, may think, etc.. 4 years or 4 days, it doesn't matter. I've seen friends that been together for way longer than that and divorced 4 months after the wedding, and other that married within months of meeting each other and they are going strong.

How do you feel about marriage? do you really want to? or is it just because she's pushing it? I think this should be the most important issue. It's one thing falling in love and one being in love, and love is not just butterflies and bells and whistles, but in building the relationship day by day.


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## Dwight Moody (Jan 10, 2004)

Dwayne said:


> Am I being an ass for not having bought a ring yet?


No.

I'd say you're an ass for not dumping the lady so you two can find some others you actually can live with.

But then, I come from a subculture where getting married isn't really important. Very, very few of my friends are married.


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## sunnyracegirl (Apr 11, 2004)

jkelman said:


> Were I you, I'd have a very intimate conversation with her (in person) where I lay out all the cards on the table, i.e. why you enjoy her company, but that you have doubts, and why. This will basically give her permission to do the same thing, i.e. be entirely open about how she feels, what she wants, etc. Once this ball gets rolling, you may be surprised at the truths that are uttered from both your lips. Intimate honesty will generally make or break a relationship, in that it destroys lesser relationships and makes important ones that much stronger. I'm not saying that this is ever easy, but it sounds to me like you could use such a device (i.e. one that either makes this relationship stick or moves you on).


This is really good advice.


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## smudge (Jan 12, 2004)

Yep, listen to the ladies. They're totally correct. 

I just erased a page full of yammering. 

Trust your instincts. If it help you (and you can actually be objective in a situation like this) do the old pro/con list thing, except go into great detail about how each point makes you feel and above all be honest with yourself.

about the ring: I was in a similar situation about five years ago. I was with someone from an extraordinarily wealthy family and she had a rigid idea of what she wanted for a ring. The only thing was that it was going to cost about $30K. Ultimately we broke up. The desire for such a trinket in itself isn't such a big deal to me. The desire for such a trinket, when the purchaser only makes $50K/yr and disregard for more important things like a home, really set off my alarms and ultimately led to the downfall of our relationship. My bottom line is that, the cost of the ring isn't really the issue, its the rigidity of the desire and the thought that nothing else will suffice.

The woman I married had no such desires for fancy rings, though I did spend every cent I had saved for three months to get it. Ultimately, I felt that the engagement ring was a representation of MY feelings for her and should show the thought, time and effort I put into giving it to her. I put more thought and work into presenting the ring to her, which was the best part (and I'm still impressed with the cleverness of my own design.) Sorry, I'm getting off track,...

trust your instincts, AND take the advice these ladies are giving to heart.


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## Mary Ann (Jan 13, 2004)

I think you have received excellent advice so far. I'll add my own.

*Ringitis*: n. A desire to acquire an engagement ring and have a big wedding and "be married". Not at all related to a desire to form a commitment and have a marriage that works.

Your girlfriend has a serious case of ringitis. DO NOT be pressured into buying her a ring just because you have been together 4 years. You are young still (2 years out of college if I am calculating this right) and you may not still know YOURSELF, never mind her. You really need to know yourself, your core values (as the others have said) and aspirations in life before you can know if a partner is right for you. Take your time because people really change from their early 20s to their late 20s as they settle down and get jobs and figure out what's most important in life. (My personal experience: married at 25 divorced at 28. Picked the wrong guy because I didn't know enough about my own likes/dislikes and thought that someone who picked me was good enough. I probably had a mild case of ringitis too).

*Long Distance*
No ifs ands or buts, long distance relationships are difficult. And they put you on your "best behaviour" all the time because you only have a short time with person. It is possible to form a lasting relationship when you're geographically challenged, but the odds are really against you. I had a successful LD relationship (we now live together and plan to be married), and my brother married his wife after 4 years together only in separate cities, but I'm almost 40 and my brother was early 30s when he got married. We have the benefits of experience behind us, so I think that tips things in our favour. I know many more LD relationships that failed--no one was willing to move, or they moved and things fell apart when the "honeymoon" behaviour was over. And make no mistake, you can't compare you college years to what it would be like to being together and managing dual careers together now.

If you want this relationship to work you have to be clear to her that you will not be pressured into buying her a ring and that you both need to live in the same city. And I don't advocate moving in together because you don't want to fall into the trap of getting married just because you don't want to move again (definitely a factor in my divorce). Take your time in making your decision and don't feel bad because you aren't ready to make this commitment yet. If she is not willing to wait for you, then you have your answer.

P.S. When you are ready to marry you will know it and the price of the ring (large or small) will never even enter into anyone's conversation.

Good luck
Mary Ann


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## zenmonkey (Nov 21, 2004)

(as kept piped in... listen to the bright ladies) Here is my experience, I was in grad school, in the US and girlfriend left to come back to Europe, the daily calls and daily letters slowed down a little, an old boyfriend started hanging out, I was busy with work, roadie and looking too much (and then some) at American girls. Alarm bells ringing - far away sucks - not the way to build a base for common relationship which is about you, her AND your (her) friends, family and interests. 

So after that fateful year, I came to France, we lived together, married, children, puppies, debts, illness, wellness, bad wallpaper. Screw the rock, buy a fridge, take a trip - the rock should be within your budget and not a sign of your commitment. However small (and large) attentions do count - when was the last time you paid her a surprise visit.......


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## alaskarider (Aug 31, 2004)

*oh yeah, and another thing*



Dwayne said:


> ...(while I'm taking my family's and friends' advice and not rushing into things)...


If your friends and family are all in agreement (and it's not just a case of your buddies not wanting you tied down so you can hang out with them doing guy things all the time), there might be a reason for it. Have a heart-to-heart and ask them why.


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## Maida7 (Apr 29, 2005)

I'm married with kids for almost 7 years now. My wife and I have very little in common. She dreads physical activity and I can't find enough time to ride. She belives in the death penalty and I can't see any sense in killing killers. But we love each other and we have alot of fun like best friends. Everybodys different but I don't need to have alot in common with somebody to be friends.

The longer I have been married the more I see that relationships are about compromise and cooperation from a mutual respect and adoration. From your side of the story she is making all the rules. She demands the ring. She says no living together. You need to offer a compromise so you are both happy and comfortable with the relationship. Say like a 3K ring. Or living in the same town. If she loves you and respects you she will except a compromise. If she is willing to loose you because she can't compromise, move on!

By the way, Is she hot? Any pics?


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## JamR (Feb 22, 2005)

Might just be me, but the specific ring requirements would be a big negative message to me. The rings should be signs of commitment, not a specifically designed bobble to flash. A simple band should suffice for both parties.

After 32 years my wife's favorite ring is still her small band. At 25 years she got her custom designed ring and I got 2 bikes. Things worth having are worth waiting for. The beginning of a good marriage should not be about the "stuff" IMO.

Just some thoughts.


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## gabrielle (Jan 2, 2005)

Dwayne said:


> Anyway, I'll try to keep it short.


I will too then. If one of my friends came to me and said what you just said, he'd get the following extremely biased, not PC, gut reaction based on the vibe I'm getting from your post, which of course is influenced by my own feelings about women who "push for rings" etc: Ditch the *****.

My longer answer, based on other stuff you've posted, is actually the same. Heh. Seriously, as kept said, it's like the Bells of St Mary's in here. The whole "thinks I should just know" is a pretty serious one. You don't ever just know. All relationships require communication, lots & lots of real talk.

Plus, you never know someone until you've lived with them and/or been on a loooong road trip. 

HTH
gabrielle


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## Lutarious (Feb 8, 2005)

*You already know the answer*

If you have any doubts. If you feel like you can make it work out, despite the problems, if you feel like you have to make her happy by doing something you don't neccessarily want, BAIL OUT NOW.

I knew my ex-wife for 20 years before we were married. I took a leap of faith, deciding, against my best judgement, that we could make it work out. I knew then, and I know now that I did not want to be married to her. I hoped against hope, and it was awful. Listen to the voice inside you and be 100% sure what you are doing. Marriage leads to children, who do not get to decide who their parents are. You owe it to your unborn children to go into marriage with 100% dedication and assurance, or not at all. Trust me on this one. If you are having doubts of any kind, you need to put on your shoes and RUN.


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## mahgnillig (Mar 12, 2004)

Wow, this is quite a topic.

First of all, I know we're only seeing one side of it here, but it certainly seems like you are NOT an ass. The ring thing is what gets me the most. Mary Ann put it perfectly about 'ringitis'. I have a couple of friends who got married about this time last year after quite a long while together... that description rings true (haha  ) of them: expensive rings, big wedding etc. and we still can't work out exactly why they got married 'cause they always seem to be arguing... /shrug.

The way it looks to me is that she won't move in with you until you're engaged, and she doesn't want to get engaged without a $6k ring, so you're stuck trying to decide if you can afford to spend $6k in order to get the clarification you need about the relationship. This is all wrong. She seems to be under the impression that if you buy her what she wants that's the level of commitment she can expect from you in your relationship. But a ring is just a thing... commitment doesn't come in the form of expensive items, it comes in the form of your actions, thoughts and words. I don't have an engagement ring... hubby and I have plain platinum wedding bands and that's all I wanted. He has asked me on several occasions if I'd like an engagement ring, and I told him that I'd be too afraid of breaking it to wear it, and that I'd rather have another bike.

If you're really considering what it would have been like to meet other women who have more in common with your lifestyle, then you're already half way out the door. Women who like bikes, renaissance music, camping and motorcycles do exist (hey, I'm one of them). My hubby and I really have to work at sharing each others' interests, but we have successfully managed to get through our first 3 years of marriage without pissing each other off too much, so we must be doing something right. Everyone who said that it's the small things that cause the arguments is 100% correct... couples don't usually get together unless they have the same goals as far as lifestyle goes, so you're left with the small things to disagree on. You'd be amazed at how much strife a dirty tea towel or an empty cat food bowl can cause!

- Jen.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

alaskarider said:


> If your friends and family are all in agreement (and it's not just a case of your buddies not wanting you tied down so you can hang out with them doing guy things all the time), there might be a reason for it. Have a heart-to-heart and ask them why.


No kidding. My friend finally dumped this girl who we all thought was bad for him. We cheered. They got back together and got married. 3 months later she was threatening to leave if he didn't sell all his bikes and promise to never ride again - because he was to spend all free time shopping and hanging out with her and her parents. All I can say is damn did the rest of us see that coming. They're still "working things out" and he's riding less and she's letting him ride once in a while and who knows how it will work out.

Point is, your family and friends might see things pretty clearly, and might have some valid advice and concerns.

I'd be concerned about the ring thing, but I don't believe in rings period. (And I'm married).
So I don't know that my opinion on the topic is going to fall in the range of normal. It just seems like a gigantic waste of money to me.

My husband and I sucessfully did the long distance thing for years, but we were in the military. It wasn't like - hey, I don't feel like moving. Voluntary long distance sends a whole different message.


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## kept man (Jan 13, 2004)

connie said:


> No kidding. My friend finally dumped this girl who we all thought was bad for him. We cheered. They got back together and got married. 3 months later she was threatening to leave if he didn't sell all his bikes and promise to never ride again - because he was to spend all free time shopping and hanging out with her and her parents. All I can say is damn did the rest of us see that coming. They're still "working things out" and he's riding less and she's letting him ride once in a while and who knows how it will work out.
> 
> Point is, your family and friends might see things pretty clearly, and might have some valid advice and concerns.
> 
> ...


Yeah, distance is all about the attitude and mutual understanding. We haven't done anything that compares to the military, but we've lived apart for up to 6 weeks a couple of times ... neither of us were thrilled, but it was a big deal to both of us 'going in' that we make sure we each had the chance to pursue our individual goals. Hell, right now Mrs. Kept's summer is either going to be spent working in Sweden, researching and doing some big conference in the Netherlands ... or potentially landing her dream job in Colorado.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

kept man said:


> Yeah, distance is all about the attitude and mutual understanding. We haven't done anything that compares to the military, but we've lived apart for up to 6 weeks a couple of times ... neither of us were thrilled, but it was a big deal to both of us 'going in' that we make sure we each had the chance to pursue our individual goals. Hell, right now Mrs. Kept's summer is either going to be spent working in Sweden, researching and doing some big conference in the Netherlands ... or potentially landing her dream job in Colorado.


That makes sense too. Anything temporary, or for a valid reason... something you need to complete for career progression, dream job - (I know people who commute coast-to-coast every weekend to be with their spouse and keep their dream job), education... family emergency/illness... whatever. Sometimes you just have to be apart. Deal with it, right? But this seems like... well, I'd move, but not unless I get a ring. What is that? Do you want to be together or not? No one is saying you have to live under the same roof if that's against your moral beliefs, but why not move closer and find a place to rent? It doesn't sound like there is any urgency to wanting to be around one another. Which doesn't seem like a good sign.

I will say, that coming from a religious family - I can imagine my mother telling me things that would sound like her behaviour. I personally tend to ignore it and do what I want... but if she's religious and influenced by her family - I can see a protective mother telling her that she needs to avoid the temptation of living near you unless you're married. It's something my mother would say. Again - if this is who she is and you're not understanding it or sharing the same views - I have to wonder how it would all work out. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.


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## kept man (Jan 13, 2004)

connie said:


> That makes sense too. Anything temporary, or for a valid reason... something you need to complete for career progression, dream job - (I know people who commute coast-to-coast every weekend to be with their spouse and keep their dream job), education... family emergency/illness... whatever. Sometimes you just have to be apart. Deal with it, right? But this seems like... well, I'd move, but not unless I get a ring. What is that? Do you want to be together or not? No one is saying you have to live under the same roof if that's against your moral beliefs, but why not move closer and find a place to rent? It doesn't sound like there is any urgency to wanting to be around one another. Which doesn't seem like a good sign.
> 
> I will say, that coming from a religious family - I can imagine my mother telling me things that would sound like her behaviour. I personally tend to ignore it and do what I want... but if she's religious and influenced by her family - I can see a protective mother telling her that she needs to avoid the temptation of living near you unless you're married. It's something my mother would say. Again - if this is who she is and you're not understanding it or sharing the same views - I have to wonder how it would all work out. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.


Well said Connie, and your avatar is awesome, by the way. Best around mtbr, I'd say.

On the religious front, they did vacation together for a couple months, he said. Sounds like some prime shenannigans territory to me. But I suppose it could've been a chaste vacation?

As my saying-a-day calendar told me, virtue is its own punishment.


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## Christine (Feb 11, 2004)

Seems like EVERY relationship I've ever had has been with at least a half hour's drive between us. Dated a French guy for nearly six years, but we were both too young and it dragged out longer than it should have.

What gets me is that she's verrrrry specific about that ring. How tacky. I used to wear a little plastic bead bracelet with a snap closure that the French boyfriend surprised me with at some roadside gift shop- it meant the world to me.  An engagement ring was the furthest thing from my mind- the logistics, however, were a constant concern.

So I can't say that distance is necessarily the worst thing, but looking back I wish I'd broken it off sooner. I had plenty of great experiences without him, and may not have gotten so involved with mtb otherwise.

Better to be single than married and unhappy. I say get the other stuff sorted out first.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

kept man said:


> Well said Connie, and your avatar is awesome, by the way. Best around mtbr, I'd say.
> 
> On the religious front, they did vacation together for a couple months, he said. Sounds like some prime shenannigans territory to me. But I suppose it could've been a chaste vacation?
> 
> As my saying-a-day calendar told me, virtue is its own punishment.


Yeah, but parents can be living in denial about that stuff. When I was getting out of the Army and moving to UT, where my then BF and I were buying a house, my mom was freaking out that we'd be "living in sin". Uh, mom... hate to tell you but did you think we were paying for separate hotel rooms while traveling around Europe? Or when he came to visit me? I think "living together" makes it a big deal for parents because it's finally forcing them to face reality and it becomes public knowledge for the grandparents, friends, etc. As long as the two people in the relationship are on the same page, it works.

Thanks about the avatar! I had portraits done for my business cards and brought my bike and helmet and had him take some pics like that too, which was fun. Took a lot of resizing to get it to avatar size - the pic was a full body shot and here's my eye at full resolution:


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## jeffj (Jan 13, 2004)

She's crackin' the wool whip and it looks like you are thinking about succumbing to it.

And if she is like this before you are married, you haven't seen anything yet.

The saddest part is that if you let her run over you like that, she may marry you, but the respect will be gone.

Even if you have misrepresented the situation, this is your perception of how it is.

I could go on forever. Even the "Keepers of The Lounge" are sending up "DTB flares". Red flag after red flag. Good luck and think this through. Forever is a long time for a guy to live without custody of his own testicles.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Some very nicely thought out responses here.

I won't recapitulate things that have already been succinctly covered. I will however state that I don't think one needs to live in the same household with someone before marriage, but it is important to live in the same town or general area.

The relationship you have is "working out" in the way that it is - long distance, rarely see each other, when you do see each other its all lovey and nice and good behavior. If the marriage is goign to be LD as well then it might work. If you are thinking of living closer then I'd advise trying it out first. That is, if you are still thinking of it after reading all these posts. 


Good luck man.


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## kawboy8 (May 5, 2004)

*I have input...*

Does anyone want to hear my thoughts?


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## mward (Apr 7, 2004)

Okay, I couldn't read everyone's responses, but mostly they're brilliant. I don't have much to add except to echo that yes, you're really young. I waited till I was 33 to get married, and I found a girl who will race bikes with me, suffer up 14ers in colorado, ride motorcycles, etc etc. If you're tied to the wrong woman, it makes it really tough to find the right one. Wait a while to get married. Rushing into something this big is risky. Also, you gotta live with your mate first. I don't care what anyone says, when you live with someone you get to see them warts and all, and sometimes you don't see em all till after you lived together for a year. I'd say 6 months, minimum. If she's afraid of being judged, you're probably better off away from her.

And if you're still dead set on getting married (foolishly) get your ring here: http://www.bluenile.com/ I bought a 6100$ ring (appraised value) for 3400$. No fancy store to pay for when it's all online.


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## Ouchies (May 5, 2005)

*Buyer Beware!*

reading this, immediately heard the following in my head:

"18 years, by 18 years
She got one of yo kids got you for 18 years
I know somebody payin child support for one of his kids
His baby momma's car and crib is bigger than his
You will see him on TV Any Given Sunday
Win the Superbowl and drive off in a Hyundai
She was spose to buy ya shorty TYCO with ya money
She went to the doctor got lipo with ya money
She walkin around lookin like Michael with ya money
Should of got that insured, GEICO for ya moneeey( your money)
If you aint no punk holla We Want Prenup
WE WANT PRENUP!, Yeaah
It's something that you need to have
Cause when she leave yo ass she gone leave with half
18 years, 18 years
And on the 18th birthday he found out it wasn't his"

Dude, doubts are your survival instincts trying to protect your best interests. Proceed with extreme caution.


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## Mellow Yellow (Sep 5, 2003)

*One question*

before I post my answers; what would you say are the worst qualities about her??? and are these qualities that you can see your self living with for the rest of your life???


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## Lucky (Jan 12, 2004)

Dwayne said:


> She doesn't like the idea that I want to live closer together first because it makes her feel like she's being judged.


Red Flag! Red Flag! Hurricane Warning!

How in the he11 is she going to cope once you get married and she lives in the same house as you? You might have spent time together a few years ago, but you both are young, and probably still evolving as individuals, and people do change over time. If she doesn't want to be near you now, what is the future going to look like?

I'd seriously want to understand her fear of being judged if I were you. Is there more to it than that? Is she insecure or have a fear of commitment so that a long-distance relationship lets her be comfortable? I would be in no hurry to commit to a permanent relationship with such big red flags. If you intend to be together for the rest of your life, tread carefully and know what you're getting into.

I met my now-ex husband in college in the midwest. He graduated a few years ahead of me and moved out east. We kept our relationship going via long-distance, and when I graduated, I found a job near him and we moved in together right away. We planned to get married a year later, but in that one year we lived together, I started having misgivings about the relationship. But, I didn't trust my gut and went along with plans to make everyone else happy. Huge, huge mistake. After 17 years, we divorced, but the last 10 were pretty unhappy. Should have divorced sooner.

So, go for a ride to clear your head. Listen to what your gut is telling you. What does that little voice inside say?

Good luck.

Kathy


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## kawboy8 (May 5, 2004)

Lucky said:


> Red Flag! Red Flag! Hurricane Warning!
> 
> How in the he11 is she going to cope once you get married and she lives in the same house as you? You might have spent time together a few years ago, but you both are young, and probably still evolving as individuals, and people do change over time. If she doesn't want to be near you now, what is the future going to look like?
> 
> ...


Good advice. If your heart says "be with her"...make sure she feels the same. Your heart will tell you that too..
Good luck


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## crtj (Jan 24, 2005)

Another guy here. Can't add much to what everybody else said except to reinforce the points ... mostly the one about - if you get married before ever living together for a while, you're a gambler.

Also, you're 24, 2 years out of college, most of which was long-distance-only time with her as you say ... You are both young, your positions in life and images of yourself, the world, partnership ... are evolving ... OK maybe not really on a daily basis  but yes, most likely still very much evolving. And you haven't spent the most recent third of your relationship near each other.

In my opinion getting married in this situation is a roll of the dice... Or as Dirty Harry said, Do you feel lucky, punk?

Disclosure - I'm in a "long term relationship" - we've been living together since we were 20 - we're 37 now, got a daughter aged 4, never felt the need to marry. Seems to be working, fwiw.


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## forkboy (Apr 20, 2004)

Dwayne said:


> but I do sometimes really wonder what it would be like to find someone who I could do more things together with like ... listening to bagpipe music at renaissance festivals


You really need to lower your expectations.

Really.

YMMV - but 99% of the guys I ride with do not have wives who participate in any of the guys passionate interests. The best most of us can hope for is a SO who tolerates our passions (obsessions) and allows us time to pursue them without giving us a ration of s#it and going on and on and on about how "their" needs are not being met.... If you all can't learn to compromise and be satisfied (honestly satisfied - not feeling like you are sacrificing) while you are dating, I wouldn't concern myself with a 6K ring just yet.

Just think of all the hookers you can get for 6K. And that doesn't even count the annual maintenance costs of a wife.


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

forkboy said:


> You really need to lower your expectations.
> 
> Really.
> 
> ...


I'd agree. I refused to settle for someone who didn't share my interests in skiing and biking (believe it or not, I dated guys in the past who had issues and couldn't understand why I wanted to waste time skiing). But granted, it's easier for an active girl to find a guy who gets her activities than the other way around.

And yes, I've known guys looking for... a girl who races DH and motocross, and likes trucks, and oh.. who is a supermodel and she's independently wealthy and doesn't mind supporting him.. and his drinking buddies. Okay, keep dreaming.

But I think you should be asking more than someone who is so independent she doesn't mind living long distance and doesn't want to move near you, let alone move in with you. That's taking "having your own interests" to the extreme. And there ARE girls out there who like riding. If you want a girl who just won't complain when you go riding, you can find that - and plenty of relationships work WELL that way. If you truly want a girl who will be your riding buddy - it might be a tougher search, but we exist, you know! (I'm taken, but my husband spent years with a couple of ex-wives who didn't ride or ski and sooner or later decided he shouldn't either.... But we did meet eventually and it's worked great!)

You're probably going to have to compromise on something. But don't compromise on everything.


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## glenzx (Dec 19, 2003)

*high maintanence!*

Good grief - my wife and I got an engagement ring (beutiful Burmese - deep clear wine color red set in a contemporary platinum design), our wedding bands (platinum also), the facility, dress, catering and booze for LESS than $6K!

I agree with the other folks that getting married need not be the next step - as it sounds like there is a lot of growing and discovering to be done yet.


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## Billy Zoom (Dec 31, 2003)

*Dwayne, my advice is pretty simple.*

RUN!

I was married almost 17 years, much of it pretty challenging. Toward the end, beyond challenging. I wasn't fully convinced that it was the right thing even when I got married and I had my doubts, but for whatever reason I went ahead anyway. This is way too big of a decision to gamble with, beyond the normal risk that's involved in any marriage.

Pressure and expectations should play no role. If you're unsure, figure out why. If she's not the one, let her find someone else. But pressure does no one any good, and is usually a sign of some unresolved issues and danger around the corner.

I'm finally in a relationship that feels right, and she's a wonderful girl. Before her, I was dating someone else who applied the pressure and I told her I needed a little space. She felt threatened by that and when I wouldn't budge on us taking it at a pace I felt was good, she bailed. But if the girl I'm dating now and I decie to get married, as we're discussing, we know it will still take a ton of work. And if I have any doubts beforehand, I'm going to make sure they're resolved and I feel comfortable. I'd advise the same for you. Life is TOO short, and even the ideal relationship will take compromise and work.

Most importantly, please consider that this is coming from an incurable, knucklehead romantic.

Good luck.

Joel


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## Hello Kitty (Sep 3, 2004)

forkboy said:


> You really need to lower your expectations.
> 
> Really.
> 
> YMMV - but 99% of the guys I ride with do not have wives who participate in any of the guys passionate interests. The best most of us can hope for is a SO who tolerates our passions (obsessions) and allows us time to pursue them without giving us a ration of s#it and going on and on and on about how "their" needs are not being met.... If you all can't learn to compromise and be satisfied (honestly satisfied - not feeling like you are sacrificing) while you are dating, I wouldn't concern myself with a 6K ring just yet.


I agree with what you have to say here, to a point, but Dwayne sounds like a guy who clearly wants to share this part of his life with his future wife. Therefore, I think Dwayne should follow his instincts, and take a serious listen to what Billy Zoom has to say.

Dwayne, if you do find yourself dating soon, word to the wise: you can meet a lot of single riding chicks at races, and they're all lined up conveniently and neatly in age groups to help you quickly sort through your prospects.


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## forkboy (Apr 20, 2004)

Hello Kitty said:


> I agree with what you have to say here, to a point, but Dwayne sounds like a guy who clearly wants to share this part of his life with his future wife. Therefore, I think Dwayne should follow his instincts, and take a serious listen to what Billy Zoom has to say.


That was mostly a tongue-in-cheek about his chances at finding a girl who wanted to go listen to bag-pipe music at a renaissance festival AND was into biking. In my experience the two are pretty much mutually exclusive.

Or maybe it's just me. I'm not exactly in the hot-bed of single 25-35 yr old women. Lots of 18-21 yr olds, but that holds about as much interest as watching an OC marathon.



Hello Kitty said:


> Dwayne, if you do find yourself dating soon, word to the wise: you can meet a lot of single riding chicks at races, and they're all lined up conveniently and neatly in age groups to help you quickly sort through your prospects.


That just deserves to be repeated...


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

forkboy said:


> That was mostly a tongue-in-cheek about his chances at finding a girl who wanted to go listen to bag-pipe music at a renaissance festival AND was into biking. In my experience the two are pretty much mutually exclusive.
> 
> Or maybe it's just me. I'm not exactly in the hot-bed of single 25-35 yr old women. Lots of 18-21 yr olds, but that holds about as much interest as watching an OC marathon.
> 
> That just deserves to be repeated...


I'd totally agree with you if he was just whining that his otherwise perfect girl wasn't into bagpipes.


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## Team Pro Laps (Jul 1, 2004)

*I have been thinking*

about this post off and on for a few days and trying to find sort it out while trying to remember my mrbr.com log on/password combination!
First, no you're not an ass for not getting the ring -- this is really beside the point as far as I can tell. AND there is nothing wrong with her for wanting one. It is how each of you sees the situation and whether you do or don't share the same values. If you don't, are those differences ones that are critical to the success of your relationship? (Metaphorically) If you are a dedicated full suspension kind guy and she is single speed hardtail, can you still ride together? 

There is a great book called The Hard Questions: 100 Essential Questions to Ask Before Saying "I Do" by Susan Piver with chapters (and questions for each of you to answer & discuss) on home, money, work, sex, health & food, family, children, community &friends and spiritual life (in that order). It starts with this quote from Pablo Neruda's Sonnet XII
Loving is a journey with water and stars,
With smothered air and abrupt storms
of flour: Loving is a clash of lightning bolts, and
two bodies defeated by a single drop of honey.

Let the communication and a very interesting, sincere and truthful dialog begin! If you talk through every question in this book with your sweetheart, your questions about your future together should be answered. Worth a look if you don't want to end up a starter husband. It has been my experience that, when a situation between two people is ambiguous, each person will exploit that ambiguity to their own ends, with some very unpleasant surprises for one or both people. So, find out now what the expectations are on each side. Best wishes for your continuing happiness and success in life.


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## Neen (Sep 27, 2004)

>>>Dwayne, if you do find yourself dating soon, word to the wise: you can meet a lot of single riding chicks at races, and they're all lined up conveniently and neatly in age groups to help you quickly sort through your prospects.<<<

that is THE funniest thing I have read in a long time  
For what its worth (not that I've ever been married), if she's pressuring you for a $6,000 ring, how about you ask for a $6,000 bike? (And I'm a girl!)


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## brianthebiker (Nov 1, 2005)

*Think twice......and then think again!*

From all I have heard of your situation, it sounds as though she is focused on her wants and desires, to the exclusion of what may be practical regarding the 6K ring, which I think is preposterous, but that is JMHO. IMO, spend it on a house, or a trip, or a bike, or a kayak......

Also, the fact that she will not even live in the same town as you for fear of being judged strickes me as odd. If she truly loved you, she would always want to see you.

I am 34 (turning 35 soon) and have been single my whole life, because I never met anyone who I really and truly connected with. About a year and a half ago, I was introduced to a girl who is an ex-racer by a biking couple who are close friends.....well, we have been dating for a year now and will be engaged soon. We do long rides together(mountain and road), climbed Katahdin, and are planning a trekking trip to Peru for next year. She is beautiful, kind, and everything I could have ever hoped for. I always thought I would be waiting my whole life to find someone like her. I am sure there were times my sisters and parents wished I would settle down and marry. But THANK GOD I did not, as my girfriend (fiancee to be) is all that I could ever hope for. Settling down with someone for the sake of settling down would have been the worst mistake I could have ever made. I love her more than words can express.

Oh, and one more thing. She wanted a small engagement ring so I could save my money.....instead I bought her a new mountain bike.....dream girls do exist;-)

Take this FWIW.

Brian


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