# So everyone's telling me I need a FS..



## Shannon-UT (Mar 26, 2004)

This year my husband, my friend and her husband all got superlights. They all remark on how much better they have gotten and how sweet of a ride it is now.

Now when they all rode their hardtails, I was STILL the slowest person in the group. They are telling me that a superlight will make me _faster _ and _better_. After this weekend (we rode a bunch of local trails), I couldn't help but be a bit discouraged with always being last. They say it's my bike, I say they are just better riders than me. With a new FS I could float over rock gardens and not be slowed down with getting thrown all around, etc.

I just bought a Diamondback Apex last year 5/2003 and don't feel justified getting another one this quickly. I would be just buying the frame and putting the my current components on that.

Oh, and I ride XC (no DH or FS).

Persuade or dissuade me.


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## Mary Ann (Jan 13, 2004)

*There's a bit of truth in what they say....*

Based on my own experience, I definitely was able to ride technical trails faster and with more confidence when I got my first FS. Now, I'm a DH'er and the trails I was riding really are better ridden on a FS, so I can't automatically say the same will happen for you on XC trails, though you should see some improvement as you get used to the bike.

I'm also the slowest rider of my group. Being on a FS, I'm still the slowest rider of the group. So I'm really doubtful you won't also still be the slowest rider of your group should you get a FS bike. Expect to be able to go faster, but don't expect to automatically catch up to your friends. New bikes will not close the gaps in riding experience/skills. Your hubby/friends may be pushing that argument a bit too far.

But a FS other merits. I just got a FS for my XC bike this year and I wish I had done it sooner. I feel more stable on the trails, but more importantly (to me), I am much more comfortable. The bike is taking all the hits, and not my back! I can ride longer without tiring or feeling beat up at the end of the ride. If that appeals to you, you may consider it.

Would one of these people be willing to lend you their bike so you can try it for yourself? That may be the best way to judge if FS benefits are worth the cash outlay for you.

Good luck!
Mary Ann


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## papajohn (Feb 1, 2004)

Shannon-UT said:


> With a new FS I could float over rock gardens and not be slowed down with getting thrown all around, etc.
> Persuade or dissuade me.


Shannon,

I don't really have any experience on a hardtail, except a SS I recently built and have ridden about 12 times. Otherwise all my riding the last two years has been on a variety of FS cross country and "all-trail bikes".

However, my immediate thought when I read your comment above was that I would NEVER claim that I "float over rock gardens" and "don't get slowed down by being thrown around", even on some really top quality FS bikes.

In the end I think you and I are pretty much saddled with the fitness level and skill set that we have at the moment, and I would be surprised if a different bike could make that big a difference.

Just my $.02 worth.

John W.


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## rockcrusher (Aug 28, 2003)

Building your skill with an HT is the way to go. You don't gain any skill making the move to FS, as a matter of fact, your skill will get sloppier as FS will allow you to pick lines indescriminately utilizing the suspension as a crutch to get you through sections that you may not have made on your HT.

I generally tell people to ditch the suspension fork too. It will teach you many skills that you can then apply to your suspended mount. Spend the dough on a full rigid SS and you will be the most happy. You will learn serious bike skills and get much faster. They are cheap and a good way to go as an alternative to buying a FS bike.

FWIW, it took me 10 years to get my FS (although prior to that there was no such thing), 1 year to break it doing what I never had the skill on my HT to do, and another 8 years to get another. I still have a HT full rigid in my corral but generally ride a FS now. 

Finally being the last has two, no three solutions, one, ride faster (duh, but seriously try riding alone for fitness and skill: see single speed above), two, find slower people to ride with (seriously, find a group of people more suited to your speed and ride with them occasionally, you all can push your speed together and get faster as a group), or three, enjoy the ride back there and don't worry about the faster members, bring a camera, take pictures, as long as they are waiting then they probably won't mind waiting a little more (this is what I do on long climbs). Good luck.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Potentially you can be faster than you currently are on a hardtail. Before you go down that path, you should ask yourself why you aren't faster than you presently are? Do you feel comfortable on you current bike fit wise? Are you having trouble keeping up because of physical limitations? Are you not as technically proficient of a rider as the people you ride with? Do you care to ride any faster?

Once you find the answer to the above, you will have the answer of what to do to be a faster rider. If it doesn't bother you that you are slower, don't worry about it. The whole idea is to have fun.


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## Shannon-UT (Mar 26, 2004)

I think a new bike could make a difference, depending on the old one's condition. Just last year with the upgrade to the Apex, I'd say I had improved 80%. But my old bike was trashed and actually left me in pain at the end of the ride! Not the same situation with my Apex, but just to make a point.



> Do you feel comfortable on you current bike fit wise? Are you having trouble keeping up because of physical limitations? Are you not as technically proficient of a rider as the people you ride with? Do you care to ride any faster?


Are you not as technically proficient of a rider as the people you ride with? DING DING DING

I do have lots of room for improvement - especially in the technical department. I can generally keep up with the climbing, I'm not as fast descending or fearless. Like with big rock gardens, I attempt a few feet then usually crash or get wigged out that I will crash and dismount. I go as fast as I safely feel or else I'm all over the place when I push it a little harder. This is exactly when my friends/husband say the FS comes in handy.

I could try my hubby's superlight, it's the same sized frame just longer stem, if I can pry it from his kung fu death grip....


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Impy said:


> Shannon-UT said:
> 
> 
> > I do have lots of room for improvement - especially in the technical department. I can generally keep up with the climbing, I'm not as fast descending or fearless. Like with big rock gardens, I attempt a few feet then usually crash or get wigged out that I will crash and dismount. I go as fast as I safely feel or else I'm all over the place when I push it a little harder. This is exactly when my friends/husband say the FS comes in handy.
> ...


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

Shannon-UT said:


> I do have lots of room for improvement - especially in the technical department. I can generally keep up with the climbing, I'm not as fast descending or fearless. Like with big rock gardens, I attempt a few feet then usually crash or get wigged out that I will crash and dismount. I go as fast as I safely feel or else I'm all over the place when I push it a little harder. This is exactly when my friends/husband say the FS comes in handy.
> 
> I could try my hubby's superlight, it's the same sized frame just longer stem, if I can pry it from his kung fu death grip....


FS can help a great deal with rock gardens. It lets you plow through and keep pedaling. I don't know how tall you are, but a Titus Racer-X or a Turner Burner (assuming you are 5'6" or taller) would be better frames than the Superlight. They are fully active so they keep better traction when braking down hills and don't have pedal kickback and tend to lockout when pedaling.

Also, not knowing where you live, a bike course like the womens training clinic that was held recently in Big Bear could be very helpful. The skills you would learn follow you to any bike and assuming they help enough, you could have the satisfaction of looking back at your husband and riding partners and telling them to hurry up on their fs rides.


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## AZtortoise (Jan 12, 2004)

for me, FS=comfort. no more lowback pain. i can ride longer and enjoy myself much more than on the HT.

also, FS=safety. the rear tire stays on the ground over rocks and other obstacles. a tire that stays on the ground=greater control.

i am still slow, but i did not get the FS to go faster, i got it because of lowback pain. btw, i like being at the back of the pack. less pressure to perform.

Rita


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

rockcrusher said:


> Building your skill with an HT is the way to go. You don't gain any skill making the move to FS, as a matter of fact, your skill will get sloppier as FS will allow you to pick lines indescriminately utilizing the suspension as a crutch to get you through sections that you may not have made on your HT.


I'm in this camp.. you'll be much more skilled learning on HT to a point. You may get to a point where you know you've outgrown it, I certainly did. But I think you can learn to be a much more dynamic rider on a HT, which will of course transfer over to the FS. If you can learn how to stay out of the saddle on a HT and let your body move, that's all you need to know to get going on a FS. Just because you have back suspension doesn't mean you get to sit on the saddle and let the suspension take the hits for you!!

formica


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## RockyGuy (Aug 12, 2004)

Okay ... I just had to chime in because my girlfriend was in the same position not that long ago. She expressed interest in riding about two years ago and I bought her a Diamondback Apex (after she rode many bikes and selected that one because it fit the best). It came with good components and it held up great for two years.

At that point, she started to think about getting a full suspension bike. After test riding a few FS bikes, she was amazed at the difference. She liked the way the rear suspension helped absorb some of the bumps. The first thing I noticed was now much faster she was. She felt more in control and she definitely felt more confident. I'll be the first to say that I'm not sure these came directly from the bike (I'm sure it was mental to some extent), but they did come along with the new bike. Her riding has drastically improved on her new FS rig and she can't get enough of it. I think it was important for her to develop strength and skills on a hardtail. That allowed her to appreciate the things that a FS bike had to offer. I also think that her success on the FS is due in large part to the time she spent on the hardtail.

For what it's worth, she test rode at least fifteen or twenty different FS bikes. In the end, she felt the best on the Santa Cruz Juliana, which is basically their female version of the Superlight. Her large Juliana frame is basically a medium Superlight with about a half inch taken off the chainstays and a little extra stand-over. In any case, I bought her the frame last Christmas (in trans red ... which took forever to come in, but was well worth the wait when I saw her face), then built it up. We used some of the parts from the Apex and the rest we bought new. The one part worth mentioning is the Juliana bar, which is thinner than a standard bar and has special thin grips to go with it. This was the one thing that my girlfriend wouldn't compromise on -- she loved the thinner bar and grips. These were a pain to find since they are no longer made (Wylder went out of business as far as I know), but the effort it took to track them down was well worth it. As it stands, the bike is light and responsive and it fits her like a glove (I'd be happy to give you full specs if they would be of any value). Keep in mind that if you want to move everything over from the Apex, you'll still need some new parts -- the bottom bracket, seat post, and front derailleur are all different sizes (although they may fit FS frames from other manufacturers). Also keep in mind that selling an Apex frame isn't easy ... I ended up building my girlfriend's Apex frame back up in order to sell it.

The other thing that I want to mention is that fit is extremely important when buying a bike. At first, my girlfriend was dead set on getting a Rocky Mountain bike because I have one and adore it (although I adore my girlfriend more). She never felt quite right on them, though. Like I said, she test rode a ton of bikes and the Juliana fit the best. If you do decide to get a new FS bike, don't feel pressured to get a Santa Cruz just because the others in your group have them. Get the bike that feels the best ... it's okay to be different. 

Good luck!


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## Gnarlene (Jan 13, 2004)

*My thoughts....*

Well, I have an FS, and when I ride that I'm always the slowest one in our group. And I have a HT, and when I ride that, I'm always the slowest one in our group. And I have a fully rigid bike, and when I ride that, I'm always the slowest one in our group.

I'm slow. No bike is going to change that for me. (To give you a guage, I'm slow enough that OTHER people are starting to make excuses for me!) My problems lie more in my fitness, and skills, and willingness to risk crashing at speed. That said, I'll address what I notice for riding XC downhill between my FS and HT. I don't huck, so I can't really comment, though I suppose FS is real nice for that! Depending on the kind of trails that you ride, you might notice a difference in speed with an FS. (That said, my next bike is going to be a really nice HT).

(1) The FS bike handles very well riding down loose and/or baby-headed trails -- on what I call "chattery" trails. I do travel faster through these kinds of sections on my FS bike. I suppose if you live in a rooty area, and there are lots of smaller roots to travel over, an XCish FS bike would also allow you to travel faster. (I'm a desert dweller so roots are foreign material to me!)

(2) The HT bike seems to handle very similarly to the FS bike on bigger stuff. The size of the chattery obstacles goes to about the amount of rear travel that the bike has. Once the chattery stuff is much bigger than the amount of travel, it seems to not make much of a difference if the bike is HT or FS, at least in my mind.

Surprisingly to me, I've not noticed much difference when the obstacles are things like rollable ledges and chutes and whatnot. At that point it seems like other features of the bike (tt length, bb height, stem/handlebar setup) are more of a factor in how fast I can/will go.

Also depending on fit and geometry and trail surface, I have noticed that some HT bikes seem to corner faster than an FS bike. (That may only be a sensation, I don't really know that I actually go faster.)

(3) The fully-rigid bike is a hoot, but with me as the pilot, it is not fast at all. Just had to add it to the list, because it is darn fun!


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## Lucky (Jan 12, 2004)

AZtortoise said:


> for me, FS=comfort. no more lowback pain. i can ride longer and enjoy myself much more than on the HT.
> 
> also, FS=safety. the rear tire stays on the ground over rocks and other obstacles. a tire that stays on the ground=greater control.
> 
> ...


I'm with Rita. I can ride for a lot longer at any pace on my FS bike(s) than I ever could on my hardtail. The older I get, the more I appreciate the cushion.

That said, there is a difference even in FS bikes, depending on the travel. My two main rides are a 3.5" Titus RacerX and a 5" Iron Horse Hollowpoint. I have to pay more attention to what I'm doing on the Titus, including leaning down to keep the front wheel planted on climbs, etc. The Hollowpoint is much more forgiving of my mistakes and smooths out a lot more bumps. Does it make me faster? Not really. I'm limited by my skills (or lack thereof) and my unwillingness to crash at speed.

I new bike won't make you a lot faster if you're limited by either fitness or skills. Keep riding the hardtail. It's practice that will let you go faster through the rough stuff.

Have fun!
Kathy


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## Shannon-UT (Mar 26, 2004)

Hmm, so it does seem that there is a bit of truth in what my H is saying. I don't expect to be super fast on a FS, but I guess some things would be easier to accomplish. I guess most of you are saying to try and get better on the HT before upgrading.

Eventually I'd like a FS for when I'm older for comfort reasons. I'm 28 now and got a year or so I suppose. I do feel slightly beat up after rides currently. I was thinking about what Impy said about "why worry about being fast when you're not racing?" I guess it's not really the speed thing but knowing that everyone else cleared all those tough spots, and I was the only one that had to clip out is what is frustrating. If I cleared everything and yet was still last, that would be OK in my book. It's just frustrating to get back to the trail head and everyone is already eating lunch and say how they didn't have to put their foot down once (I ask them). I'm like WTF? that was some scary stuff people. I clipped out more times than I can count. 

But then I try to remind myself that I'm doing some amazing stuff that most people don't ride or get to even see in a lifetime. And yes, I'm riding to have fun. I try to remind myself that too.

Hmm, a mtb. clinic? There's gotta be one in Utah. That's a thought.


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Shannon-UT said:


> But then I try to remind myself that I'm doing some amazing stuff that most people don't ride or get to even see in a lifetime. And yes, I'm riding to have fun. I try to remind myself that too.
> .


Yes, I remind yself of this often. I understand the frustration of not cleaning stuff, and one thing about going slower than others is that I don't see what lines they took! Also, I'm afraid of crashing at the top of a long 3 mile descent and not having search and rescue find me for 10 hours because everyone got to the end eons ago and don't want to climb back up 3 miles. (yaya, negative thinking)

Those are the bad days/bad rides, which STILL are awesome because I am young and healthy enough to even go ride, and that is a beautiful thing. It won't always be so 

BTW the rides I enjoy the most are those group rides with a variety of riders and skill levels (and usually gals as well as guys) and noone in a hurry to go anywhere. Those are the rides I feel no pressure to catch up and I will re-do stuff that I miss and that is where I really feel satisfied.


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## jl (Feb 23, 2004)

Shannon-UT said:


> Hmm, a mtb. clinic? There's gotta be one in Utah. That's a thought.


Like this one

http://www.westernspirit.com/trips/alison_dunlap_camp/alison_dunlap_camp.html

or this one next spring

http://www.dirtcamp.com/women_only.shtml

I would highly suggest a clinic. You'll be a better and more confident rider, and you won't be the last one in the parking lot guaranteed .


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## *rt* (Jan 15, 2004)

*my (delayed) $0.02 - FS vs HT*

hey Shannon.

i've ridden & raced both a HT and a FS and i'm probably just going to repeat a lot of what others have said. 

i love my HT (an '01 alu Trek 8000 wsd). it's quick, light, and responsive. it climbs like a mountain goat. it has also forced me to learn skills, such as smooth line picking, that i would otherwise not have learned if i was riding a FS. at the same time, it beats the snot out of me and sometimes frustrates me when the rear wheel loses contact as i bounce through root/rock gardens.

so, after riding my HT for 5 years i bought a FS (a custom ti/alu Dean Ace 3). i loved the plushness and the ability to bomb through any line. i picked up significant speed relative to my HT when descending but probably lost some of it on the climbs. my FS was about 2 lbs heavier and not as quick or responsive as my HT. on rocky climbs i could usually keep the rear wheel down a bit better but i was still dragging an extra 2 lbs up the hill. i think, when all was said and done i was only marginally faster on my FS than on my HT and that was very trail dependant.

i've since gone back to my HT and am selling my FS (because i'm not happy with the fit). i've ridden my HT this entire summer and still enjoy the quick, stiff, responsivity of the bike. what's more, when racing it's the rider's skill not the type of bike she rides that determines who is fastest. i've both won and lost races riding my HT against girls riding FS & HTs. that said, over the winter i plan to look hard at FS bikes again - my lower back is screaming for mercy. 

i guess my overall advice would be, if you like your HT stick with it for a while longer. learn the skills it teaches you because those are the skills that will make you faster. getting an FS isn't going to make you that much faster now and will probably cost you more money than it is really worth at this point.

rt


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## Shannon-UT (Mar 26, 2004)

Those clinics are $1250, even to camp! 

Can't you skip the designated lodging, gourmet dinners, evening activities and just stick to the classes? 

That is out of my league.


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

I am sure there are less expensive clinics out there. You might even try finding a local group of girls that ride, ride with them a bit and ask one of the better riders if she would be willing to tutor you. Depending on how your husband is, you might ask him to take some time and work with you on going out and getting through some sections. 

Just so you know, often it doens't take a lot of extra help. My stepsister rides a lot of centuries and does half ironmans. She is trying to get into adventure racing but said she is very nervous on her mountain bike. When I was was with them in Lake Tahoe we rented a bike for her and went to Northstar. We spent two hours working on simple fire roads and single track. At the end of the two hours she was riding them about twice as fast as before. Here problems were simple: 1) lack of practice, and 2) lack of confidence. By simply lowering her seat so she could easily dab if she wanted (which she didn't need to) she had the confidence she needed to approach and clear small obsticals. At the end of the 2 hours we went down an intermediate singletrack, she cleared it without any problems, not one fall all day. I told her, don't worry about having your seat to low, get where you feel comfortable with your handling and then start to bring the seat back up as your confidence builds.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Shannon-UT said:


> Those clinics are $1250, even to camp!
> 
> Can't you skip the designated lodging, gourmet dinners, evening activities and just stick to the classes?
> 
> That is out of my league.


no s**t.
you might have to travel to find one that's more affordable.

http://www.mtbchick.com/clinics.html Clinics in Boulder CO. I think they are $150 for two days.

http://www.dirtseries.com/sds_program.html does them in Hood River OR and SunValley Idaho for $150 for the weekend, before accomodations.

http://www.devineride.com in Rossland BC ( N. of Spokane) does women's camps 2x a year, again only $150 (US) before accomodations.

Both the Devine Ride and Sugoi camps use professional coaches, many are world hall of fame, world and national champions from Canada..

I've been to Devine Ride twice and it's awesome.

I think the Canadian coaching system is awesome, it's like the PSIA in that there are levels of national certification, like ski instructing, where you have to take exams and get certified to coach at one level, before you can test and get certitfied to coach at the next level.

Even this one, hosted by volunteers in Sandpoint, ID is just $100 for the weekend.
http://www.skurtzendirt.org/

You do need to be careful when shopping for a clinic... I was a little freaked when talking to an acquaintance who was putting on a little freebie for a club ... I asked if they started beginners with the neutral /attack positition and he said, "what's that?".

formica


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## Gnarlene (Jan 13, 2004)

Shannon-UT said:


> "why worry about being fast when you're not racing?"


Well, for me I do worry, even though I don't race.

I go so slow that I get lost. The rest of the group will get to a trail junction and zig. I'll come along much later and zag, having no idea that everyone else zigged. This happens to me a lot. (I'm so slow that I can't reasonably expect that people will wait for me at all the trail junctions.....)

I go so slow that I don't get invited on many of the group rides, and find that I do most of my riding by myself -- sometimes even on group rides, I am far enough behind that I'm essentially on my own. That's OK, but then I have to go even slower, because I need to make sure I don't crash by myself in the middle of nowhere. It turns out that I regularly ride some trails alone, that many of my friends can't imagine doing solo, because they are so remote.

Going slow is also frustrating. It's like part of me says that I'm out riding, I'm eating healthy, I exercise regularly -- I just must be improving! I must be getting better. But since everybody else is improving too, I can't ever close that gap. So it never appears that I'm improving.

Knowing that most people get really bored waiting for me, I try my darndest to keep up...to the point that I start to feel ill. And the rides become so much less fun. Once I do catch up, the group will zip off right away, leaving me with no breaks at all. I'll not take the time to refuel, and the problem will escalate. I'll take chances I shouldn't take to try to keep up, and that ends up actually making me fall farther behind.

I don't know if anyone else ever ends up in this position or not...but being far behind can make a difference for me in the enjoyment and safety of a ride.


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## jl (Feb 23, 2004)

Shannon-UT said:


> Those clinics are $1250, even to camp!
> 
> Can't you skip the designated lodging, gourmet dinners, evening activities and just stick to the classes?
> 
> That is out of my league.


Really? $1250 is a lot cheaper than any FS bike your going to buy. I would bet that you'll be a better rider, on a hardtail, after a clinic, than you'll be after an entire summer of riding a new FS bike.

Last year I purchased a new FS bike for my wife. She wanted a bike that would allow her to descend faster without getting the "snot beat out of her *rt*" . She had a couple of _bad_ crashes because the FS bike gave her a false sense of security, and it set her back mentally (her confidence was shot). The new bike did not create new skills.

This past spring I sent my wife to DirtCamp. It was worth every single cent. She went from a cautious and tentative rider, to someone who understands how to handle and ride her bike. Unfortunately, most group rides don't offer _real_ instruction. "Go ahead try it, you can do it--just keep your weight back," is not good instruction.

She told me that DirtCamp was one of the best _experiences_ she ever had in her life. The camp ended up being more than "just about riding." For her it was about renewal...


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## dirtcrab (Feb 4, 2004)

> i've since gone back to my HT and am selling my FS (because i'm not happy with the fit). i've ridden my HT this entire summer and still enjoy the quick, stiff, responsivity of the bike. what's more, when racing it's the rider's skill not the type of bike she rides that determines who is fastest. i've both won and lost races riding my HT against girls riding FS & HTs. that said, over the winter i plan to look hard at FS bikes again - my lower back is screaming for mercy.


RT - Perhaps you should stick with a hard tail and try a different material. I started out on an aluminum HT, went to a FS Racer X, then to a FS SC Blur and also recently purchased my HT steel SS (Kona Explosif).

Here's my breakdown of the bikes:
HT Aluminum - sucked, hurt to ride and generally took away from the fun of riding. Could not wait to upgrade away from this bike!

FS Racer X - was a good bike, rode like a hard tail but lacked plushness of some FS bikes. Rode this for about 3 years but felt I was missing out on some plushness and technical bravado, so I upgraded again...

FS Blur - is a great bike for more technical descending, but not as great of a technical ascender as the RacerX. It's a little heavy (compared to my SS). Good bike for the epic rides and out of town trips to unknown locations. Generally I like this bike a lot.

HT Steel - I have SO much fun riding this bike, perhaps it is because it's an SS, but every time I get off after a ride I have a huge smile on my face and have even considered building up a geared steel HT after riding this for a while. It's infinitely more comfortable and forgiving on the body than the Aluminum HT I started on... and did I mention that it is a blast to ride! ;-)

So, moral of the story is: If you love your hard tail, but are tired of getting beat up, perhaps you should consider a HT in a different material, steel or perhaps titanium. Serotta makes high quality steel frames if you want to spend big $$$. You can get into a Kona Exposif steel HT for around $400 (frame only) if you wanted to experiment with steel before getting a custom job from a different manufacturer.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

jl said:


> Really? $1250 is a lot cheaper than any FS bike your going to buy. I would bet that you'll be a better rider, on a hardtail, after a clinic, than you'll be after an entire summer of riding a new FS bike..


You don't have to spend $1K to have an awesome camp experience, tho it's great if you feel comfortable spending that amount, that would be out of my budget.

I agree with you in everything else, quality coaching in an supportive, skill specific environment can make a huge difference in your ability as a rider, I just don't think you have to spend a lot to get it. Depending on where you live, there are camp options that are affordable for more people, as I posted before. That being said, I feel $150 a year for a weekend camp is some of the best money I've ever spent on myself. My riding has gone up a level every time.

If anyone knows of any other camps, post the links as I'm trying to get 'all" of them on one page for future reference.

formica


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## SheFly (Aug 11, 2004)

As a rider of ALL TYPES of bikes (HT, FS, SS, DH, Road and Tandem) I wanted to add my $0.02.

I started my MTB riding on a hard tail, and eventually moved to a FS bike, increasing the amount of travel over the years. I now ride a Bullit as my primary XC bike and I love it. While I don't think the bike increased my speed (that came from the road bike, frankly) it did improve my overall confidence. I specifically notice a difference when I switch to my HT or SS - there are some things I ride easily on my FS that I can't/won't ride on those bikes. I attribute this to confidence more than ability.

I started to seriously ride on the road last year, and it has made a HUGE difference in my technical MTB skills. Because of the road miles, I have more speed and power which helps with the momentum on the trails, making it easier to clean those rock gardens! Where I used to spend 80% of the ride in my granny gear trying to finesse my way over/around obstacles, I now spend 95% of a ride in my middle ring (gave up on a big ring a long time ago) using momentum to ride over/around obstacles.

I also agree with the suggestions to find other women to ride with. I have a regular Tuesday women's ride and have learned that my peers are much more patient with me than my husband  . I find that if I see other women trying something, that I will be more likely to try it myself. It's kind of like a support group!

BTW - if you ask my opinion, I think you should have both types of bikes, but I have 6 bikes  .


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## Shannon-UT (Mar 26, 2004)

My husband is the one that reminds me all the time that I'm doing great, don't worry about speed, to have fun, and is all around great encouragement. He doesn't mind waiting for me either. I keep a whistle in my pack in case I have a big fall. I think he's so psyched to be married to someone that biked before we even met. He gently reminds me too that everyone else has more years under their belts too, which could be a factor.

Thanks for those links formica. $150 is way more doable. I am the queen of finding free camping BTW!

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions.


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## *rt* (Jan 15, 2004)

dirtcrab said:


> RT - Perhaps you should stick with a hard tail and try a different material. I started out on an aluminum HT, went to a FS Racer X, then to a FS SC Blur and also recently purchased my HT steel SS (Kona Explosif).


that's certainly an option. a ti HT would be verrrry nice. 

but i still think a FS is in my future. not sure what yet but i'll probably look at the Racer X among others. 3" of travel would suit my lower back nicely on some of the trails up in N. GA and W'ern NC. 

wouldn't mine a steel SS either.

rt - so many bikes, so little money


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## Impy (Jan 6, 2004)

Shannon-UT said:


> My husband is the one that reminds me all the time that I'm doing great, don't worry about speed, to have fun, and is all around great encouragement. He doesn't mind waiting for me either. I keep a whistle in my pack in case I have a big fall. I think he's so psyched to be married to someone that biked before we even met. He gently reminds me too that everyone else has more years under their belts too, which could be a factor.
> 
> .


Your husband is a true sweety! Good for him and good for you.

If I make it out to UT we can go have a nice long slow fun ride together one day


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## jl (Feb 23, 2004)

formica,

I think we both agree that any "good" camp is beneficial for improving one's riding regardless of the cost. It would be great to have a list of available camps. DirtCamp had a women's only camp which I think is invaluable for beginner/intermediate riders. The dynamics are much better with the other sex removed from the experience. You also mentioned that you need to be careful when shopping for a clinic... If your spending $1K it'll probably be good...

As for budgeting--it's really about how someone wants to spend their money. I spend almost all of my discretionary income on biking, because that's what I like to do. If I could play a musical instrument other than the radio, I would probably be spending my money on guitars, and pianos. I have friends that have spent more than $5K for a guitar. Too me this sounds ridiculous, just like spending more than $3K for a "bicycle" sounds ridiculous to them 

If you did play guitar and really enjoyed it--wouldn't it be cool to spend a week with Les Paul, or Eric Clapton? I just think it would be really cool to hang out with alison dunlap for a week.

Please post the list of camps when you have it compiled. I think it would be an invaluable resource to have access to.


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## Shannon-UT (Mar 26, 2004)

Sounds good Impy!


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## SprungShoulders (Jan 12, 2004)

Chiming in a little late, but....

Many of the MTB world's best bike handlers and smoothest riders come from a BMX background. What do BMX'ers ride? Yup, a hardtail. Indeed, a fully rigid bike. Why are they so fast and smooth, regardless of the type of bike they ride? Riding a HT has taught them conservation of momentum, good line selection, and the benefits of controlling a bike from the pedals rather than the seat. IMHO, you can't "outgrow" a hardtail.

Comfort is a valid ergonomic concern in the HT vs. FS debate. I'd have been a quivering puddle of jello had I ridden my hardtail during a week-long vacation at Whistler a little while ago. Even so, riding my big-squish bike didn't make me a better rider down the mountain. Yes, it helped my confidence in many circumstances, and saved my sorry arse in many others, but basically I could point and shoot, and let the suspension correct for improper line selection and/or other "mistakes". Outside of DH races or gonzo lift-served / shuttle rides such as Whistler, I ride a single speed steel Balfa Minuteman with a 100mm ShiverSC fork. Riding that bike has, I believe, made me a better overall rider, especially when I get back on my DH rig (a Mountain Cycle 9.5).

I like having both a FS and hardtail in my quiver. I ride the HT most of the time (single-speeding is also great for getting the max amount of exercise in the minimum amount of trail time!), and a FS when I race or am pushing the edges of my skill envelope. I also have found my knees hurt less on my SS hardtail than when I had a FS trail bike. Why? I stand a lot - in fact, almost constantly - to climb. Standing and hammering (at least using flats; YMMV using clipless) seems to put a lot less stress on my knees. Go figure. 

Anyhow, good luck. ...Oh, and one of the side benefits of riding a HT (for the little bit o' egomaniac in us all) is, when you clean a particularly gnarly section of terrain that even gave your FS-riding buddes a challange, mad props are usually in order for exception bike handling skills and grace under pressure.   Good luck Cheers.


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## FreeRangeChicken (Jan 13, 2004)

Shannon-UT said:


> Hmm, so it does seem that there is a bit of truth in what my H is saying. I don't expect to be super fast on a FS, but I guess some things would be easier to accomplish. I guess most of you are saying to try and get better on the HT before upgrading.


I'm kind of in the camp of those saying spend some more time on the HT. I think it forces you to learn the more intricate technical details about riding.

That said, the absolute best way for you to get better/faster on a HT or FS is to practice. I'm not just saying go out and ride the trail more often, I'm talking about going out on rides with the explicit intention of stopping and working on trouble sections..... riding and re-riding sections that give you trouble. Have your hubby spot you on sections that you're not comfortable with. You'll eventually gain confidence and comfort and won't need a spotter. Try riding different lines. Spend the time to figure out what works and doesn't work,.... or what works and what works even better. Move on tho the next trouble section and do it all again.

Often people just don't spend the time to break down riding into different skills and practicing them individually...... turning, descending, getting over steps, getting through baby heads, etc... You can get better without doing this, but you'll get a lot better a lot faster if you break it down and put in the time.

I've got a really nice HT and a really nice FS bike. I ride the HT most of the time, but I defiitely love riding the FS bike too. If you can ride it on a HT, you can definitely ride it on a FS bike.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

jl said:


> formica,
> 
> I think we both agree that any "good" camp is beneficial for improving one's riding regardless of the cost. It would be great to have a list of available camps. DirtCamp had a women's only camp which I think is invaluable for beginner/intermediate riders. The dynamics are much better with the other sex removed from the experience. You also mentioned that you need to be careful when shopping for a clinic... If your spending $1K it'll probably be good...
> 
> ...


will do. 
LOL about the discretionary income. I have two teens about to hit college, a hubby in grad school, saving for retirement blah blah blah... there's only so much to go around. ;-) So I'm really happy just to get away for the weekend.


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## AZtortoise (Jan 12, 2004)

Gnarlene said:


> Well, for me I do worry, even though I don't race.
> 
> I go so slow that I get lost. The rest of the group will get to a trail junction and zig. I'll come along much later and zag, having no idea that everyone else zigged. This happens to me a lot. (I'm so slow that I can't reasonably expect that people will wait for me at all the trail junctions.....)
> 
> ...


we *have to* ride together sometime soon. i will not leave you in the dust(i dont go fast enough to raise any dust). seriously.

Rita


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

to stay on topic, I didn't consider a HT until I knew in my heart that' I'd outgrown my recreational level hard tail. There was a pretty unanimous feeling with my crew that there comes a point when I needed a 'real" mountain bike. 

that being said, after two years on a FS, I had a real blast when I borrowed a friends super nice HT for a few weeks while my FS was on the blocks. I even went downhilling one day on it, that was pretty funny, me on the 22# HT hanging with the DH crowd... but that was FUN, I felt like I was dancing with the bike.

formica


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## Shannon-UT (Mar 26, 2004)

Well I rode my hubby's superlight yesterday. Actually only on the downhill section. Boy, could I feel a difference! I see how the "faster" part comes in: you can go over just about anything and not even feel it! I didn't try it going up hill, but he said his locks out and is basically like a hardtail in that aspect. The lines I usually have to pick while riding my HT (on that trail) didn't even matter. After we got back to the car, I had a huge smile on my face (probably because there was no pain or stiffness in my body). He said he was glad he rode my bike because it makes him feel even better about his FS purchase (after riding HT for 10 years). He didn't know how I could keep riding my bike (beat up factor).

I'm not going to rush out and get one just yet, but my body will look forward to a comfy ride in a year or two.


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## SSteel (Dec 31, 2003)

Everyone who has posted previous to this has covered all the valid points between FS and HT (and HTmaterial ride qualities), so I'm just here to offer up clinic info that I did not see posted...

If you look at this online article there is contact info for a women's team in Utah called Team Sugar. The team also runs a training ride and mountain bike clinic around Park City's trails on Tuesday nights.

Anyway it's worth a look.

I've ridden in Utah (Moab) and I would suggest a steel HT (most economical) or a good quality FS frame (best for rock drops  ).


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## chad1433 (Apr 5, 2004)

Shannon-UT said:


> I think a new bike could make a difference, depending on the old one's condition. Just last year with the upgrade to the Apex, I'd say I had improved 80%. But my old bike was trashed and actually left me in pain at the end of the ride! Not the same situation with my Apex, but just to make a point.
> 
> Are you not as technically proficient of a rider as the people you ride with? DING DING DING
> 
> ...


It's not rhetoric - there is more control with a FS bike. Trying to learn skills on a HT is a load of crap. The lines you're picking on that HT, you'll blow thru with a FS. You'll wonder why you had to weave all over the trail, when the fastest way was right thru the middle.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

chad1433 said:


> It's not rhetoric - there is more control with a FS bike. Trying to learn skills on a HT is a load of crap. The lines you're picking on that HT, you'll blow thru with a FS. You'll wonder why you had to weave all over the trail, when the fastest way was right thru the middle.


Disagree. It's the rare person who learns on a FS that learns how to use thier body, . balance and finesse; how to be a dynamic rider. Most folks who learn on a FS don't always understand that the body is an intergral part of the system, and they tend to let the bike take the hits for them, instead of learning how to work **with** the bike. The worst case scenarios are those who just sit on the seat, bouncing along, letting the suspension take the hits but not being part of the ride.

formica


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## SprungShoulders (Jan 12, 2004)

chad1433 said:


> It's not rhetoric - there is more control with a FS bike. Trying to learn skills on a HT is a load of crap. The lines you're picking on that HT, you'll blow thru with a FS. You'll wonder why you had to weave all over the trail, when the fastest way was right thru the middle.


With all due respect, you're wrong.

True, FS gives you the _ability_ to just run over things, but many times doing so is neither the best way to deal with the situation, nor the fastest. For instance, you're approaching a rock garden going downhill; just prior to the rocks is a small depression (or log, or rock, etc), which creates a natural "lip". You have two choices: use your squish and simply plow over the lip and through the rocks, or use what the terrain is giving you, and the little gems of knowledge you've accrued from riding a hardtail - that going over stuff is usually way smoother and faster than going through it - and pop the lip up and over the whole mess. Can you learn that going over stuff rather than through it is faster a lot of the time without riding a HT? Sure. You're less motivated to, however. As a species we're pretty lazy; we'll take the path of least resistance. Squish diminishes the need to look for perhaps smarter alternatives, whereas a hardtail oftentimes requires you to work a little - both physically and mentally - to find the smoothest line.

Riding hardtail lines on a FS bike isn't usually the best use of suspension technology, but good lines are good lines regardless, especially if chosen keeping the capabilities and nature of the bike you're on in mind.

I'm 37 and keenly aware that riding a hardtail can be less than comfortable, especially compared to a well-endowed FS bike. My old bones like some squish, too.  However, I ride my HT most of the time mainly because it's loads of fun to do so, and I feel it also puts me in greater touch with how my body, the bike, and the terrain are interracting with each other. To me, squish tends to muddle the body/bike/dirt equation a bit, such that you're sometimes never quite sure what effect input A had on result B.

I stand by my hypothesis that if you ignore the technique you can learn on a HT, you'll never be as good a rider as you could be otherwise. Certainly riding a HT isn't a prerequisite to being a decent rider and having fun on the trail, but I think it teaches you things you can't learn on full suspension.


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

SprungShoulders said:


> With all due respect, you're wrong.
> 
> True, FS gives you the _ability_ to just run over things, but many times doing so is neither the best way to deal with the situation, nor the fastest. For instance, you're approaching a rock garden going downhill; just prior to the rocks is a small depression (or log, or rock, etc), which creates a natural "lip". You have two choices: use your squish and simply plow over the lip and through the rocks, or use what the terrain is giving you, and the little gems of knowledge you've accrued from riding a hardtail - that going over stuff is usually way smoother and faster than going through it - and pop the lip up and over the whole mess. Can you learn that going over stuff rather than through it is faster a lot of the time without riding a HT? Sure. You're less motivated to, however. As a species we're pretty lazy; we'll take the path of least resistance. Squish diminishes the need to look for perhaps smarter alternatives, whereas a hardtail oftentimes requires you to work a little - both physically and mentally - to find the smoothest line.
> 
> ...


WL note, I can say this here:

Chad1422 by all indications is a male, and it's been my experience that ( as a general rule) men first muscle through just about anything, and only later do they think of technique, and then, only maybe finesse. Whereas females, as a general rule go towards techinique and finesse over muscle/power, usually because we just *can't* muscle things around the way some men can. I can think of several sports where this is the case: kayaking/whitewater, climbing and others too. Now, please no one get offended by these generalizations... tha'st what they are, and I am not trying to imply that women don't have strength, of course we do.

It could be summed up another way: men ususally get a bigger hammer, women read the directions.


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## Atty (Apr 15, 2004)

> Disagree. It's the rare person who learns on a FS that learns how to use thier body, . balance and finesse; how to be a dynamic rider. Most folks who learn on a FS don't always understand that the body is an intergral part of the system, and they tend to let the bike take the hits for them, instead of learning how to work **with** the bike. The worst case scenarios are those who just sit on the seat, bouncing along, letting the suspension take the hits but not being part of the ride.
> 
> formica


In hoping that my question is on par with the conversation in this thread... can you explain the worst case scenario you are describing here? I am very much a newbie and it's not to say that my ass is glued to the seat, but I don't stand up often. Even when grudging uphill, I find it hard to stand and pedal most of the time. It just seems to suck my energy expodentially. I generally stand when I go over hard dips or large roots as to save some of the pounding from my butt. My body is my main suspension, so I take all the hits. I ride a HT.

Thanks,
Atty


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## formica (Jul 4, 2004)

Atty said:


> In hoping that my question is on par with the conversation in this thread... can you explain the worst case scenario you are describing here? I am very much a newbie and it's not to say that my ass is glued to the seat, but I don't stand up often. Even when grudging uphill, I find it hard to stand and pedal most of the time. It just seems to suck my energy expodentially. I generally stand when I go over hard dips or large roots as to save some of the pounding from my butt. My body is my main suspension, so I take all the hits. I ride a HT.
> 
> Thanks,
> Atty


Most people don't stand and climb, at least not if they care about their knees. ( whew)
And you certainly sound like you are on the right track... when you are on technical stuff, descents, roots, you should not just be sitting. Are you familari with "neutral " or "attack " position? Feet at 3 and 9, butt slightly out of the saddle, arms relaxed, looking ahead? This is the starting point for a lot of your riding,it really helps in learning how to use your body as the suspernsion. When you are up and out of the saddle for technical stuff, you can move your weight around more, your arms and legs act like springs, regardless of what kind of suspension your bike has . But if you feel like your butt is taking a pounding, see what it feels like to get out of the saddle more.

My "worst case scenario" is a person who rides a suspension bike like they are on a bike path.. just pedaling along, letting the suspension react and them just being a blob on a bike seat.

formica


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## Cary (Dec 29, 2003)

formica said:


> WL note, I can say this here:
> 
> Chad1422 by all indications is a male, and it's been my experience that ( as a general rule) men first muscle through just about anything, and only later do they think of technique, and then, only maybe finesse. Whereas females, as a general rule go towards techinique and finesse over muscle/power, usually because we just *can't* muscle things around the way some men can.


It holds true in driving cars at the race track. If you talk to most driving instructors, they will tell you they will take a female student over a male student any time. The commonly cited reason, it he guys jump in the car full of testoserone, ready to show how great they are, and don't want to listen to the instructors. Women tend to approach a little more carefully, and listen to the instructors suggestions and directions. Funny thing is usually the women are faster at the end of the day.


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## chad1433 (Apr 5, 2004)

SprungShoulders said:


> With all due respect, you're wrong.
> 
> True, FS gives you the _ability_ to just run over things, but many times doing so is neither the best way to deal with the situation, nor the fastest. For instance, you're approaching a rock garden going downhill; just prior to the rocks is a small depression (or log, or rock, etc), which creates a natural "lip". You have two choices: use your squish and simply plow over the lip and through the rocks, or use what the terrain is giving you, and the little gems of knowledge you've accrued from riding a hardtail - that going over stuff is usually way smoother and faster than going through it - and pop the lip up and over the whole mess. Can you learn that going over stuff rather than through it is faster a lot of the time without riding a HT? Sure. You're less motivated to, however. As a species we're pretty lazy; we'll take the path of least resistance. Squish diminishes the need to look for perhaps smarter alternatives, whereas a hardtail oftentimes requires you to work a little - both physically and mentally - to find the smoothest line.
> 
> ...


All I learned on a hardtail is that the most efficient lines were often too hard to accomplish. I crashed a lot, I walked a lot, I lost traction ALL THE TIME. I pinch flatted a lot. By riding often, I've learned to finesse my bike around obstacles, I've learned about efficiency. But I see how I would have ridden lines in the past and realized I was much, much faster driving thru the middle. Let the bike do the work, that's what it's designed for.


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## carnetorta (Aug 1, 2004)

papajohn said:


> Shannon,
> 
> I don't really have any experience on a hardtail, except a SS I recently built and have ridden about 12 times. Otherwise all my riding the last two years has been on a variety of FS cross country and "all-trail bikes".
> 
> ...


I totally disagree with the above statements. I went from a Specialized Enduro to a FS Chumba Wumba custom bike with xtr components. Man, my friends were blown away -- I was seriously a different rider. Before I had been last in the pack, now I was at the very front. Take the jump!


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

I was one of the slowest guys in the groups when I started. I just didn't really care, I went for the fun of it, and, I decided that I wouldn't allow other to set a pace I felt threatened in the downhills or that I couldn't keep uphill. I just would try to beat my previous rides, not anyone else's.

I know sometimes it is frustrating to watch other people seem to glide over stuff you walk by, but just watch how they do it, and someday you'll be as good or better. Set up your training pace. Just be constant.

Now, I think that on most rides I keep up in the middle of the group, wich makes me feel great  yehaaaa. Now I am trying to keep up or better some of my friends. But it did cost me a while to get used to that.

FS are great, and also HT. If you can afford it, a good FS is a very good bike and will make you more confortable, just make sure you know some basic stuff on the HT before moving on.



Shannon-UT said:


> Hmm, so it does seem that there is a bit of truth in what my H is saying. I don't expect to be super fast on a FS, but I guess some things would be easier to accomplish. I guess most of you are saying to try and get better on the HT before upgrading.
> 
> Eventually I'd like a FS for when I'm older for comfort reasons. I'm 28 now and got a year or so I suppose. I do feel slightly beat up after rides currently. I was thinking about what Impy said about "why worry about being fast when you're not racing?" I guess it's not really the speed thing but knowing that everyone else cleared all those tough spots, and I was the only one that had to clip out is what is frustrating. If I cleared everything and yet was still last, that would be OK in my book. It's just frustrating to get back to the trail head and everyone is already eating lunch and say how they didn't have to put their foot down once (I ask them). I'm like WTF? that was some scary stuff people. I clipped out more times than I can count.
> 
> ...


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## rzozaya1969 (Nov 28, 2004)

formica said:


> Disagree. It's the rare person who learns on a FS that learns how to use thier body, . balance and finesse; how to be a dynamic rider. Most folks who learn on a FS don't always understand that the body is an intergral part of the system, and they tend to let the bike take the hits for them, instead of learning how to work **with** the bike. The worst case scenarios are those who just sit on the seat, bouncing along, letting the suspension take the hits but not being part of the ride.
> 
> formica


I agree with Formica.

I think learning to ride on a FS is like learning to drive a car with an automatic transmision. It's OK for the usual things, but when you need something with more finese (or whatever), at least knowing the basics helps a lot. Even if you can just go to the middle, there are some trails that require more smart riding than fearless riding. A friend started on a FS, and I think he's having more trouble in some trails because he needs more technical skills that, while you can aquire on a FS, are easier to cut corners.

I went from a HT to a FS, and I love my FS bike, but sometimes I miss my HT (even if it wasn't as nicely equiped), and think I could improve my riding. Besides, there are some trails where I really don't need the FS. I wish I could buy another HT to have 2 bikes. Maybe making it SS.... wow..


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## connie (Mar 16, 2004)

rzozaya1969 said:


> I agree with Formica.
> 
> I think learning to ride on a FS is like learning to drive a car with an automatic transmision. It's OK for the usual things, but when you need something with more finese (or whatever), at least knowing the basics helps a lot. Even if you can just go to the middle, there are some trails that require more smart riding than fearless riding. A friend started on a FS, and I think he's having more trouble in some trails because he needs more technical skills that, while you can aquire on a FS, are easier to cut corners.
> 
> I went from a HT to a FS, and I love my FS bike, but sometimes I miss my HT (even if it wasn't as nicely equiped), and think I could improve my riding. Besides, there are some trails where I really don't need the FS. I wish I could buy another HT to have 2 bikes. Maybe making it SS.... wow..


Well, I'm the weirdo who's never owned a hardtail. I've ridden one a couple of times, and I did just fine - no pinch flats, no problems, and it was on fairly technical trails. But seeing as how I prefer DH to XC, I haven't seen a need to actually buy one. So I have no idea if my skills would be better if I had started on a hardtail, but I seem to manage okay.


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